# Feel scammed :(



## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Having gone to register my kitten I found that the mating certificate was not filled in completely, so contacted the owner of the stud who said to send it to him and he would fill it in no problems. My partner picked up my girl late at night after she'd been at stud and obviously forgot to check all the paperwork was complete, but this didn't seem to be a problem as the stud owner had also bred my girl, and had helped me out so I assumed all would be well.

Well today I received an email to say he was happy to fill out the certificate and send it back to me but he was sure he'd made me aware that the stud she'd been to was not registered!

Now when I took her the male I'd planned for her to go to had just been moved pens and was very unsettled and the stud owner said it was unlikely anything would happen so would I be happy to use his son instead who carried the same colourings and type etc? He did explain at the time that as the male was a colour point and mine was a self the kittens would not be able to be registered as active, but this would have been the same whichever of the studs I'd used and as I was not planning on selling any active kittens as I don't feel I am experienced enough to do so this was not going to be a problem. However nothing was discussed to say that the male was not registered and so the kittens cannot be registered, as I would not have used this stud if I'd known this. I was shown his pedigree, and as I trusted the stud owner it didn't occur to me to ask to see his registration papers.

Its done now so there is nothing I can do about this but I paid this man good money and I feel completely scammed, I was hoping to keep my one and only kitten as a stud cat but now can't even register him or show him  I seem to be having such bad luck with breeding. shows you can't trust anybody really, even if they have acted as a friend.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

oh no 

after all you have been through this is the last thing you need - why is the stud boy not registered? I too would feel completely duped - especially as you have probably paid a stud fee at the going rate for a registered cat!!

Might be worth seeking some advice from the GCCF about your options here?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Also might be worth contacting some of the breed clubs for advice?


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

the breeder says it is because when he was born as a self x colourpoint he could not be registered, he told me this at the time of mating as well hence my questions about the problem. He did tell me at the time the kittens would not be able to be regsitered due to the self/coloupoint cross but at no point mentioned the stud was no registered as I had paid the going rate and would not have done so for an unregistered cat. I have emailed him saying how unhappy I am and am waiting to see what I hear back before contacting the GCCF but I'm sure there is nothing that can be done - they are not going to allow me to register my little boy if his father is not registered. Having just spent a fortune on a gorgeous little girl with colourings and lines to compliment my boys I am now thinking about giving up. Just about everything has gone wrong so far!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

How terrible for you.

Definatly one to chalk up to experience.

One thing that did occur to me was, how would you have been able to keep a kitten back as a stud? if they wouldnt have been able to be on the active register regardless which stud you used?

Sorry if youve covered that, it just confused me


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

BBM the registration policy has changed very recently for the BSH and cats can now go on active register from a self x colourpoint mating :thumbup: Flosskins checked all this out before deciding to keep her boy on active and buy a girl for him!

Flosskins don't give up - whereabouts are you? I wonder if I can recommend some local breeders who can help mentor you?


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks Soupie, feeling like everything that can go wrong does at the moment. Have got very attached to him but don't have space to keep another non breeding cat so will need to find the perfect home for him 

I'm in Bedford - don't know of many breeders around but if you do that would be lovely, looks like I'll be looking for a stud for my girl in about 9 months (she's 4 months now don't worry)!

No reply from the stud owner as yet - would I be right in thinking even if he registered the cat now as rules would allow it as the mating occured before the registration it still wouldn't be allowed?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

What an awful experience Flosskins  I hope you can find a more suitable and reputable breeder when your girl is old enough.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Not sure re the registration point Flosskins - ask GCCF?

but I can recommend a good local breeder for stud services when it comes to that point!


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

thanks, maybe you could PM me their details and I can hopefully make contact and get things arranged for next year?

is it normal to have this much bad luck surrounding 1 mating/litter? If so I give up now!! but as my OH says at least if I still want to do it after this then I knows its something I'm serious about!!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Will do :thumbup:

I had terrible luck getting started! My first queen was to be imported and she died of a rabies vaccination reaction, I then took 18 months to find another queen although the first litter was super and all healthy :thumbup: But at times I thought I would never get there. 

I really feel for you though as I think you have been 'scammed'


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I am very sorry this has been done to you. However I don't understand either - you say you wanted to keep this boy back for a stud but the stud you were originally planning to use would have meant your boy had to be on the non-active register anyway and then you used the "reserve" despite knowing the kittens could not be registered. Could you try explaining it all again?

Regardless, if all you want is to register your kitten, you can register him - and on the active too.  All that will happen is that the sire will go down as "unregistered sire" or something like that and of course the kitten will have to be on the reference register and cannot be described as whatever he is meant to be.

Or, you could transfer the girl into FIFe, and that way as soon as the progeny look like what they are meant to be, they can be registered as such - they have to be "passed" by two judges at a show.

Liz


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> I am very sorry this has been done to you. However I don't understand either - you say you wanted to keep this boy back for a stud but the stud you were originally planning to use would have meant your boy had to be on the non-active register anyway and then you used the "reserve" despite knowing the kittens could not be registered. Could you try explaining it all again?


Liz at the time Flosskins went to stud she could use the stud and register kittens but could not register kittens on active due to the BSH reg policy on self x colourpoint matings which has since changed. I think Flosskins' girl had to be speyed due to complications and so when this happened she decided to keep the only kitten a boy - she checked out whether he could be active registered which he now can be (but will go on the genetic register)

She didn't know the reserve was an unregistered stud when she agreed to use him although at the time she agreed she knew she would not be able to registered the kittens on active - at the time. As I said the reg policy has chnaged since then so if the sire were registered as she was led to believe he was then she could register her kitten on active.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

ahhhh


so the registration policy has chanced for CP x SELF since the mating took place! I see now!


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Soupie - thanks, glad to know its not just me, and glad things worked out for you eventually.

Lizward - I was never planning on keeping any of the kittens but then my girl had to have a c-section and the vet convinced me to have her spayed at the same time, and was told before she went into surgery the kitten was dead, so to have him is amazing so I wanted to keep him. I'm sure to many of you this is not the right attitude for breeding but we all have to start somewhere.
He is looking to be very nice at the moment, and although very hard to tell at 4 weeks I started looking into keeping him, showing him and then breeding from him if he was suitable. I spent a long time working out if he could be regsitered active or not as a self x colourpoint having been told by the breeder that the kittens couldn't be, and was very pleased to find out the rules had changed and he could be registered as active. 
So i admit the stud owner told me the kittens could not be registered but this was due to the self/colourpoint issue, and it was never mentioned that the stud was not registered as the original male I was supposed to use was. I was at fault here for not checking all the paperwork was in order but I trusted the man having known him for over a year.
I didn't realise a BSH could be registered active without both parents being registered, but I have emailed Doreen Goadby for advice so will see what she comes back with.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

It's such a recent change (I think it was ratified at the end of June Council Meeting!) that even I forgot about it when FK originally asked the question a bit back.

She has however got advice from Doreen Goadby - guru of all things relating to the British Shorthair policies etc - I think she is on the BAC!


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> ahhhh
> 
> so the registration policy has chanced for CP x SELF since the mating took place! I see now!


no the registration policy changed since the stud owner bred the father of my kitten and he was not aware of it. I was misinformed by him, and since the rules seem to be complicated it took me a while to be sure of the current policy.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Oh no... I couldn't even really describe that as bad luck - you've done everything by the book but the stud owner has been less than crystal clear 

The boy you used won't even have a Certificate of Entirety (necessary for registering his offspring) lodged with GCCF if he's never been registered.

Must admit though, I'm confused too for the same reason as Lizward??

Please don't give up. I know it's been a less than easy start for you in some respects. It's a huge (and bloody expensive sometimes!) learning curve. You might not believe the vast amount of problems I encountered when I first started breeding BSH years ago. I VERY nearly gave up several times but I'm so glad I didn't.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

think we keep typing at the same time Soupie


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Got it.

I wonder if the change means that the stud is now eligible for registration? If so, could the owner be persuaded to do that?

Liz


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> Got it.
> 
> I wonder if the change means that the stud is now eligible for registration? If so, could the owner be persuaded to do that?
> 
> Liz


Not sure Liz - I have had difficulty getting my head around it as it is a very complicated bit of the reg policy?

FK yes think we do lol


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

lizward said:


> Got it.
> 
> I wonder if the change means that the stud is now eligible for registration? If so, could the owner be persuaded to do that?
> 
> Liz


That is what I was wondering, I'm pretty sure the stud could now be registered but not sure of the GCCF rules on regsitering the kittens if they were born before the father was registered. Hoping Doreen Goadby might be able to advise me on this, but the stud owner hasn't replied to me as yet so I don't know if he would be willing as he knew I wanted to register the kitten as active a week ago and has only just 'reminded' me the stud isn't registered.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

flosskins said:


> That is what I was wondering, I'm pretty sure the stud could now be registered but not sure of the GCCF rules on regsitering the kittens if they were born before the father was registered.


I don't think this is a problem - I certainly don't see why it should be. I have registered a mother and daughter at the same time before now - daughter aged two, mother aged four. The stud owner, alas, is another matter. You CAN register the kitten regardless, he just won't officially be British.

Liz


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

lets hope then - maybe things are not quite as awful as I first thought! 

However is he is not registered as a BSH then his kittens would not be able to, and then would not be able to be shown or bred as such, so although I know I'm breeding purebreds I would not be able to prove it. It is an option but with space to keep only 1 stud cat at the moment it might not be possible if I want to follow my plans. 

Oh this is tough - I can cope with the animal side of it, even things going wrong because thats naure so as long as I have done the very best I can then it can't be changed. Its all the paperwork, rules, policies and other people that seem to make this hobby hard work! I think its a full time job just learning how all the rules work!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, you would still be able to sell them with a full pedigree (I assume you have the stud's pedigree) and my guess is 99 buyers out of 100 wouldn't have the first idea of what the difference between reference register and full register is, you would just have to explain that the kittens could not be shown. FIFe registration would be a much easier route. It's an option. It might not be the best one though. 

I'd suggest explaining to the stud owner that you really would like to keep this kitten as a stud and asking if he would please consider registering his stud, even if that stud has to be on the reference register (at least you would be one generation closer) - offer to pay the registration fee.

I do loathe people who take advantage of novice breeders 

Liz


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Well after all that the stud owner has replied to say that he wasn't aware the rules had changed and he will register his stud, and once thats gone through I can register the kitten. 

Doreen Goadby replied to say that unless he does this there is nothing I can do as it is 1 persons word against another and there would be no way to register my kitten as a BSH, so I just have to wait and see if he keeps his word and does it.

Does anybody know how long it is taking to register cats with a prefix at the moment?


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

I register with the admin prefix at the moment and it seems to be taking around 3 weeks (may be quicker for own prefix applications). Good luck ... You deserve it after everything you've been through!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

flosskins said:


> Well after all that the stud owner has replied to say that he wasn't aware the rules had changed and he will register his stud, and once thats gone through I can register the kitten.
> 
> Doreen Goadby replied to say that unless he does this there is nothing I can do as it is 1 persons word against another and there would be no way to register my kitten as a BSH, so I just have to wait and see if he keeps his word and does it.
> 
> Does anybody know how long it is taking to register cats with a prefix at the moment?


fingers crossed for you Flosskins! 9 days for me from posting my kitten's reg form to getting slips back and mine were complex and unusual breed numbers too!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

That sounds very promising Flosskins :thumbup: Do hope the stud owner keeps his word and registers his boy. It would surely be to his own advantage to do so.
What a nightmare experience!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry to repeat myself! That's great news that the owner will register him but don't forget, he needs to get a certificate of entirety from GCCF and take this, along with the cat, to his vet for a check that the cat 'has two' and for the vet to sign the form.

GCCF won't register offspring (from even registered stud cats) from studs unless the signed cert of entirety has been lodged with them.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

well i'll give it 2 weeks I think and then contact him again to see how things are progressing and hope he has at least sent the registration and entirity certificate in. my kitten is only 4 weeks old so I have plenty of time! It would be nice if just this could go smoothly....

Although I would rather the paperwork be difficult that anything wrong with the animals so I guess that is a plus as he is a very healthy little boy!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well this sounds much more promising. I hope it works out for you.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

My registration only took a week, I posted it on the Saturday and phoned and paid by credit card the following Friday!!

Glad you got this sorted. Remember the certificate of entirety, he might have to take the younger boy for this too. I think.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Well I haven't heard anything from the stud owner so emailed him this morning asking how he'd got on, and if both the registration papers and certificate of entirety had been posted (figured a week and a half was long enough to have done this) so just waiting for a reply now.


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