# Sticky  Breeding for money



## Sleeping_Lion

I thought I'd start this discussion, because it often comes up that people who breed, will make money. It's assumed, that at some point, over their *breeding career* there will be a profit. 

I'd like to dispel that myth, at some points in time, you may end up cash rich, ie, you have a lot of cash in your hand, but that does not mean you are in profit. 

So let's look at the costs, health testing for my two breeds is quite extensive, on average, I'd suggest it costs approx £700 each, including petrol costs driving to people who will take good quality plates. If anything isn't right, then that's at least £50 invested, which is the cost of the cheapest health test, for no return. 

Equipment, I spent several hundred pounds on equipment for whelping, some of which can be used again, I need a new whelping box, I think mine cost about £70 from memory including delivery, and I went through various amounts of drugs which have a use by date so I will need them again. I'm guessing on average I've probably spent about £180 on things that I either made use of, or have gone past their sell by date, but bought in just in case I needed them. 

Progesterone testing, at £60 a pop, driving it up to Idexx and paying for the vet to draw bloods, I reckon I spent at least £500 for five progesterone tests for Tau. 

Stud dog fees and travel, Probably another £600 all told, so petrol and stud dog fees included. 

Scans and ongoing treatment during pregnancy, probably about another £200 for a couple of trips, including a scan to confirm pregnancy. 

Then you've got your increased bills, food etc, all of which soon hike up your utility bills by several hundred pounds over a short period. I know for a fact I was £1.5k in debt by the end of £2012, mostly down to the litter I had, I use very little otherwise. 

And then for me, I may have come close to even, but Tau needed an emergency C-section, and then two pups died after trying to treat them, which in itself was close to £2.7k. I got £3k in payment for the five remaining pups. Work it out for yourself, those who think everyone is in it to make money, think again, and none of the money can ever make up for all of the hard work the heart ache of putting your bitch through a c-section (and spay) and losing pups that you've done your best to try and pull through. 

So no, not everyone breeds for money, and if you think that's true of someone you're buying a pup from, then maybe you need to ask if you can find someone who breeds for something else. 

Just to carry that on, and I've alluded to this in another thread, I'm probably going to be close to spending £3k on health testing and *campaigning* my two youngsters by the new year, and plan to travel to Europe to possibly see if I can find the right dog for Rhuna, pending on health test results, and how she pans out, although I can't see her temperament and ability being an issue. That's not a holiday, I don't have holidays, because my dogs come first, the dogs will stay at home in the care of one of the few people I trust with them, while I check out possible suitors. 

Sorry for a bit of a rant, but it really is something that annoys me when people assume you are making vast sums of money from breeding, when it isn't always the case, I have lost lots of money so far from even breeding just the one litter. I did health tests on Tau's sister only to decide because her elbow plates weren't good, not to go ahead. I don't ever count on recouping that money, I don't want to, that's not what I'm involved with *breeding* for.


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## Meezey

Most people I know, end up making a loss from breeding, but that's not why they do it.  DNA test, elbows, hips, eyes, hearts, stud fees, vet care, food, worming, weaning, microchipping all free dontcha know.......


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## Sleeping_Lion

Meezey said:


> Most people I know, end up making a loss from breeding, but that's not why they do it.  DNA test, elbows, hips, eyes, hearts, stud fees, vet care, food, worming, weaning, microchipping all free dontcha know.......


Gawd I forgot about paying to microchip each pup and having them vet checked, I think that vets bill was another £270 or there abouts, but that did include Zasa's first vaccinations, and Aria's, who I sadly had to have pts not long afterwards.


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## Meezey

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Gawd I forgot about paying to microchip each pup and having them vet checked, I think that vets bill was another £270 or there abouts, but that did include Zasa's first vaccinations, and Aria's, who I sadly had to have pts not long afterwards.


I think the problems is those who say that breeding is all about money haven't a clue what goes in to good well thought out ethical breeding, I think they think you throw dog "a" an "b" together, and then you sell the puppies for £700 quid each, you've got 10 so you've just made yourself £7'000... Nice..

Don't get me wrong there are breeder out there who do just that, and people pay stupid amounts for a cross breed or breed, I wouldn't touch a person who did that with a barge pole, and I'd strongly advise others not to either...

If a breeder is breeding for money they are not an ethical breeder, they won't have all the relevant health tests carried out, they would have just stuck dogs together, no research, no DNA test, pups will be weaned on the cheapest food, they might get vet checked as might Mum, they will be in a back room once weaned and p'ing and poo'ing and wanting proper food and worming and chipping they are gone to the first person who hands their money over. Those people will put as little money and time in to the pups they can and expect a profit. BYB and puppy farmers those are the people who make money out of breeding.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Meezey said:


> I think the problems is those who say that breeding is all about money haven't a clue what goes in to good well thought out ethical breeding, I think they think you throw dog "a" an "b" together, and then you sell the puppies for £700 quid each, you've got 10 so you've just made yourself £7'000... Nice..
> 
> Don't get me wrong there are breeder out there who do just that, and people pay stupid amounts for a cross breed or breed, I wouldn't touch a person who did that with a barge pole, and I'd strongly advise others not to either...
> 
> If a breeder is breeding for money they are not an ethical breeder, they won't have all the relevant health tests carried out, they would have just stuck dogs together, no research, no DNA test, pups will be weaned on the cheapest food, they might get vet checked as might Mum, they will be in a back room once weaned and p'ing and poo'ing and wanting proper food and worming and chipping they are gone to the first person who hands their money over. Those people will put as little money and time in to the pups they can and expect a profit. BYB and puppy farmers those are the people who make money out of breeding.


Completely agree, and the more I get involved with breeding, the less people I trust to be honest, because it's too easy to hide the truth, and some that I've trusted previously, have proven just how easy it is to lie by ommission. I made a decision when Indie got her 2:1 elbow grades, even though there was a doubt about the quality of the plates, that if I couldn't be honest about that result and publish it openly, then I shouldn't ever be involved with breeding. I'm an honest person, I couldn't lie to anyone about anything, and something this important, to me, you have to be able to trust the breeder.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Gawd, just totted up the costs above, and there are at least £6k in costs, which are over and above owning and maintaining a dog. As far as I'm concerned, Tau is here for life, her purchase price wasn't included in those costs, and she will always have a home here. I hadn't appreciated I'd probably ended up more than the estimated £3k in the red. 

Never mind eh, I'll bear that in mind when someone else tells me I MUST make a profit, somewhere along the line


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## Callie

I just took out a new Insurance policy for Orrin, the pup we kept back from our latest litter....which we made no money at whatsoever as 4 pups plus section,vet checks health test etc etc soon added up to a minus dosh. 
Anyway when I took out the policy i said I MIGHT breed from her so would they still cover even though I know they don't cover anything breeding related but they said as long as she has no more than 2 litters and I don't make any monetary gain from the litters then they would insure. Made me feel guilty as you know everyone thinks you make money when you undertake any breeding
This is a great post especially seeing it all broken down!!!


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## dandogman

''You should mate Pippa with a Poodle, the pups would make lots of money'' :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

They probably wouldn't know what a health test was...


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## BessieDog

One of my bug bears is people mating their bitch to a top stud dog, and then selling the pups on the basis of HIS pedigree. No campaigning at all. 

That's what gets my goat - I wouldn't like to even start to add up how much I've spent on showing Bess. And we've nt got anywhere to speak of yet! 

Problem is, pups from non descript parents are selling the same as good health tested and proven dogs. 

The only reason I can see why we bother is because we CARE!


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## shamykebab

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry for a bit of a rant, but it really is something that annoys me when people assume you are making vast sums of money from breeding, when it isn't always the case, I have lost lots of money so far from even breeding just the one litter. I did health tests on Tau's sister only to decide because her elbow plates weren't good, not to go ahead. I don't ever count on recouping that money, I don't want to, that's not what I'm involved with *breeding* for.


Been there, done that. Litter of pups developed severe vomiting and diarrhoea on Friday evening of a Bank Holiday weekend. Consult fee alone was £120. Luckily, I could set up my own drip at home over the weekend so saved on hospitalisation fees, or I dread to think what that could have come to (the weekend ended up costing me over £300 as it was, plus zero sleep over three days).

Have also spent almost £400 on health tests on another young bitch of mine, a lovely girl, absolutely super breeding, won tests this summer and is now about to start her first trialling season...came back with a hip score of 71.

Such is life.


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## spotty cats

BessieDog said:


> and then selling the pups on the basis of HIS pedigree. No campaigning at all.


I don't like that either, happens in cats too. People don't show but will put in their ads champion lines or lines from XX.

Offering stud service can be a way of making money too, especially if you're not fussy on who comes to visit, for some just a health certificate is enough to get in the door.

For good breeders any cash in hand goes right back into the cattery.


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## we love bsh's

SL in short- very short i can confirm breeders do not make money..if they dont cut corners that is.


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## we love bsh's

spotty cats said:


> I don't like that either, happens in cats too. People don't show but will put in their ads champion lines or lines from XX.
> 
> Offering stud service can be a way of making money too, especially if you're not fussy on who comes to visit, for some just a health certificate is enough to get in the door.
> 
> For good breeders any cash in hand goes right back into the cattery.


see lots of breeders especially with no prefix etc selling kits sired by champion stud..im like yeah and!


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## spotty cats

we love bsh's said:


> see lots of breeders especially with no prefix etc selling kits sired by champion stud..im like yeah and!


Different here as you can't be sold a breeding cat without having a prefix, but otherwise yeah it's pretty similar, ads I've seen neither parent is titled they're just saying from XX lines or champion lines -relying on what's been done by breeders before them rather than showing their own cats.


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## we love bsh's

spotty cats said:


> Different here as you can't be sold a breeding cat without having a prefix, but otherwise yeah it's pretty similar, ads I've seen neither parent is titled they're just saying from XX lines or champion lines -relying on what's been done by breeders before them rather than showing their own cats.


really i didnt know that wow.

yes i get you,thats even more annoying,their at could be pants,they may not know what a nice typy cat is but they can write champions throughout ped


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## Guest

Busts my hump because common sense tells me that health testing costs money and even with a heafty price tag after the costs of vet trips, propper health tests, insurance, puppy packs their really isn't much left over is their?

Thats what you support when you buy a pedigree dog someone who has taken the time to care for each of their dogs through pregnency to birth and after.


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## Sleeping_Lion

shamykebab said:


> Been there, done that. Litter of pups developed severe vomiting and diarrhoea on Friday evening of a Bank Holiday weekend. Consult fee alone was £120. Luckily, I could set up my own drip at home over the weekend so saved on hospitalisation fees, or I dread to think what that could have come to (the weekend ended up costing me over £300 as it was, plus zero sleep over three days).
> 
> Have also spent almost £400 on health tests on another young bitch of mine, a lovely girl, absolutely super breeding, won tests this summer and is now about to start her first trialling season...came back with a hip score of 71.
> 
> Such is life.


Sorry to hear about your girl's hip score, I hope she's one of the ones where it has absolutely no effect on her quality of life and is one of those who just happens to have a high score, but doesn't show any outward sign of a problem. But it's a b*gga all the same


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## BenBoy

A girl at work has a springer and a poodle and they accidentally had two puppies, springerpoos for sale at £550 each.


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## paddyjulie

Then there's the dog that's only having a singleton puppy . Often when a singleton pup is involved the mother often needs a C-section as labour does not start as more pups are needed to trigger it off and the pup can be bigger than the norm. 


So that's a C-section and a single puppy to sell, no profit there whatsoever . .


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## 8tansox

Most people who breed do make a profit, and it's usually a whopping profit too, because they don't do ANY testing whatsoever, they put two dogs together and voila - puppies, designer crossbreeds or same breed or mongrels. These breeders will keep on doing it time and time again simply because they don't bother with health tests or educating themselves. The BELIEVE it's their right to allow their bitch to have a litter, because vets are still spewing out drivel.

I think I have heard every argument on this planet for wanting to breed; good for the bitch; want my children to see how wonderful a birth is; because she's so cute; because my family and friends want a puppy, yada yada yada.... I'm sick of it. Ethical breeders are definitely in the minority sadly. 

Easy money for the lazy un-educated and ignorant lay-a-bouts, but what's worse, people buy puppies from them, so the breeders will definitely do it again, and again and again. I fear this will NEVER end until all breeders are made ultimately responsible for their puppies, for that dog's life. 

Sorry, gone off on one a bit there!:yikes:


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## Sleeping_Lion

8tansox said:


> Most people who breed do make a profit, and it's usually a whopping profit too, because they don't do ANY testing whatsoever, they put two dogs together and voila - puppies, designer crossbreeds or same breed or mongrels. These breeders will keep on doing it time and time again simply because they don't bother with health tests or educating themselves. The BELIEVE it's their right to allow their bitch to have a litter, because vets are still spewing out drivel.
> 
> I think I have heard every argument on this planet for wanting to breed; good for the bitch; want my children to see how wonderful a birth is; because she's so cute; because my family and friends want a puppy, yada yada yada.... I'm sick of it. Ethical breeders are definitely in the minority sadly.
> 
> Easy money for the lazy un-educated and ignorant lay-a-bouts, but what's worse, people buy puppies from them, so the breeders will definitely do it again, and again and again. I fear this will NEVER end until all breeders are made ultimately responsible for their puppies, for that dog's life.
> 
> Sorry, gone off on one a bit there!:yikes:


Absolutely agree with you, I got an ear bashing off someone involved with rescue who was adamant that ALL breeding should stop, completely. When I tried to politely point out to her that not everyone breeds for money, and that some breeders are willing to take their pups/dogs back at any point in their life, the rants just continued. I've been there before, and know that you will never win some people over to see both sides of the argument, but then you're talking about people who see the rotten end of rescue every day of the week, and are fed up of dealing with the fall out from bad breeders, which I can understand. It doesn't help when some of these bad breeders probably turn out to be supposedly well respected dog people.


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## lilythepink

BenBoy said:


> A girl at work has a springer and a poodle and they accidentally had two puppies, springerpoos for sale at £550 each.


I wonder then if she will "accidentally" have any more?


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## BessieDog

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Absolutely agree with you, I got an ear bashing off someone involved with rescue who was adamant that ALL breeding should stop, completely. When I tried to politely point out to her that not everyone breeds for money, and that some breeders are willing to take their pups/dogs back at any point in their life, the rants just continued. I've been there before, and know that you will never win some people over to see both sides of the argument, but then you're talking about people who see the rotten end of rescue every day of the week, and are fed up of dealing with the fall out from bad breeders, which I can understand. It doesn't help when some of these bad breeders probably turn out to be supposedly well respected dog people.


Love this argument! If all breeding stopped we wouldn't have any dogs at all in 15 years or so! :yikes:


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## rocco33

8tansox said:


> Most people who breed do make a profit, and it's usually a whopping profit too, because they don't do ANY testing whatsoever, they put two dogs together and voila - puppies, designer crossbreeds or same breed or mongrels. These breeders will keep on doing it time and time again simply because they don't bother with health tests or educating themselves. The BELIEVE it's their right to allow their bitch to have a litter, because vets are still spewing out drivel.
> 
> I think I have heard every argument on this planet for wanting to breed; good for the bitch; want my children to see how wonderful a birth is; because she's so cute; because my family and friends want a puppy, yada yada yada.... I'm sick of it. Ethical breeders are definitely in the minority sadly.
> 
> Easy money for the lazy un-educated and ignorant lay-a-bouts, but what's worse, people buy puppies from them, so the breeders will definitely do it again, and again and again. I fear this will NEVER end until all breeders are made ultimately responsible for their puppies, for that dog's life.
> 
> Sorry, gone off on one a bit there!:yikes:


I agree, and this attitude is universal too. I wouldn't restrict it to layabouts or those we see as typical backyard breeders. I've heard it from supposedly intelligent, professional people who you'd think would know better.


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## 8tansox

BessieDog said:


> Love this argument! If all breeding stopped we wouldn't have any dogs at all in 15 years or so! :yikes:


Don't worry, that'll never happen.

I've always said, we DO need ethical breeders. I have absolutely nothing against breeders who do everything they need to do - and more. Sadly there are more of the other types of breeders though. I also agree though it's not always the lay-a-bouts, there are some educated professional people who choose to breed their pet; I know all too well.


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## Nina

OK, so I am NOT against responsible & regulated breeding, but I would like to ask a question.

Have you ever questioned bringing more lives into a world where the over population of dogs means that healthy dogs/cats, often pregnant, are being put to sleep through lack of space in rescue.

Now before you all attack me at once, I should state that I although all of my cats have been from rescue, all five of my GSD's have been from breeders, so I am NOT anti breeding.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Nina said:


> OK, so I am NOT against responsible & regulated breeding, but I would like to ask a question.
> 
> Have you ever questioned bringing more lives into a world where the over population of dogs means that healthy dogs/cats, often pregnant, are being put to sleep through lack of space in rescue.
> 
> Now before you all attack me at once, I should state that I although all of my cats have been from rescue, all five of my GSD's have been from breeders, so I am NOT anti breeding.


Yes I do, but the problem with that is, if the good breeders stop, completely stop, the bad breeders won't, and you'd just be left with a population of puppies, kittens etc, from parents with no health tests, with no knowledge of conformation, no idea about temperament etc, etc. The good breeders contribute very little overall to the number of dogs bred in any case.


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## BessieDog

Nina said:


> OK, so I am NOT against responsible & regulated breeding, but I would like to ask a question.
> 
> Have you ever questioned bringing more lives into a world where the over population of dogs means that healthy dogs/cats, often pregnant, are being put to sleep through lack of space in rescue.
> 
> Now before you all attack me at once, I should state that I although all of my cats have been from rescue, all five of my GSD's have been from breeders, so I am NOT anti breeding.


In the ideal world only breeders who cared about their breed and their offspring would produce pups.

Those pups would be as healthy as possible, and would go to homes which were vetted for suitability. If something happened to the new owners, the breeder would take back the pups. Hence the pups would not end up in rescue.

We are educating people to get health tested pups to avoid possible large vet bills and heartache. And then say get a pup from rescue of unknown origen?


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## 3dogs2cats

BessieDog said:


> Love this argument! If all breeding stopped we wouldn't have any dogs at all in 15 years or so! :yikes:


To be honest BessieDog I am not altogether, from the dogs point of view, sure if that would be such a bad thing


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## BessieDog

3dogs2cats said:


> To be honest BessieDog I am not altogether, from the dogs point of view, sure if that would be such a bad thing


Actually it might be better if (some) humans stopped breeding!


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## 3dogs2cats

BessieDog said:


> Actually it might be better if (some) humans stopped breeding!


Oh god yes that as well


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## staffgirl

This topic really riles me up. I had a conversation the other day where I was roundly told I was wrong in saying that there are breeders who don't make money. The "evidence" apparently was that this person has a friend who has just paid for a new extension on her house by selling a litter of puppies she had just had. I did ask if her friend had done any health testing or the kind of things that ethical breeders do when breeding to which I just got a disinterested shrug. Gah.


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## Nina

In the ideal world only breeders who cared about their breed and their offspring would produce pups. 

Those pups would be as healthy as possible, and would go to homes which were vetted for suitability. If something happened to the new owners, the breeder would take back the pups. Hence the pups would not end up in rescue. 

We are educating people to get health tested pups to avoid possible large vet bills and heartache. And then say get a pup from rescue of unknown origen?


Good point and well made. I would say however, that I will only rescue in future, due to previous experience. 

Working with rescue I just find it heart breaking to see so many pets disregarded and sometimes for the most ridiculous of reasons. 

Sadly the breeder of our first two GSD's died a few years ago, taking the line with her, but she was the most genuine, and caring person who was so disillusioned with modern day breeding.

Hopefully, with tighter restrictions we will one day have a situation where good breeders will far outweigh the bad ones.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Nina said:


> In the ideal world only breeders who cared about their breed and their offspring would produce pups.
> 
> Those pups would be as healthy as possible, and would go to homes which were vetted for suitability. If something happened to the new owners, the breeder would take back the pups. Hence the pups would not end up in rescue.
> 
> We are educating people to get health tested pups to avoid possible large vet bills and heartache. And then say get a pup from rescue of unknown origen?
> 
> Good point and well made. I would say however, that I will only rescue in future, due to previous experience.
> 
> Working with rescue I just find it heart breaking to see so many pets disregarded and sometimes for the most ridiculous of reasons.
> 
> Sadly the breeder of our first two GSD's died a few years ago, taking the line with her, but she was the most genuine, and caring person who was so disillusioned with modern day breeding.
> 
> Hopefully, with tighter restrictions we will one day have a situation where good breeders will far outweigh the bad ones.


The thing is, good breeders don't need regulating, they do what they believe is in the best interests of the breed they love, or dogs that they love as not everyone who breeds does so to produce pedigrees.

I'd personally hate to be told I have to test for x, y and z, and the results have to be within these parameters. I'd prefer the KC to introduce something like a traffic light system, where it shows breeders who've health tested, taken great care to try and produce good *quality* pups with a good temperament, ability etc, so that puppy buyers can immediately look and see whether or not a breeder is doing their utmost when breeding. Maybe that traffic light system could incorporate not just the health tests, but include any shows won/entered, and other competitions, so it shows the breeder is trying to prove their dogs are a good example of the breed overall?? Just loose thoughts, but I'd prefer that sort of thing to restrictions on all breeders. People can be so arrogant, if they think they're buying something rare and unusual, but the breeder is rated all reds, ie not up to scratch, it would soon turn their opinions that buying a rare teacup blue chihuahua that's KC registered has a big red blob against the breeder - and I'd like to see that carry on through to the pedigree paperwork.


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## BessieDog

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The thing is, good breeders don't need regulating, they do what they believe is in the best interests of the breed they love, or dogs that they love as not everyone who breeds does so to produce pedigrees.
> 
> I'd personally hate to be told I have to test for x, y and z, and the results have to be within these parameters. I'd prefer the KC to introduce something like a traffic light system, where it shows breeders who've health tested, taken great care to try and produce good *quality* pups with a good temperament, ability etc, so that puppy buyers can immediately look and see whether or not a breeder is doing their utmost when breeding. Maybe that traffic light system could incorporate not just the health tests, but include any shows won/entered, and other competitions, so it shows the breeder is trying to prove their dogs are a good example of the breed overall?? Just loose thoughts, but I'd prefer that sort of thing to restrictions on all breeders. People can be so arrogant, if they think they're buying something rare and unusual, but the breeder is rated all reds, ie not up to scratch, it would soon turn their opinions that buying a rare teacup blue chihuahua that's KC registered has a big red blob against the breeder - and I'd like to see that carry on through to the pedigree paperwork.


Very interesting thoughts. Unfortunately there have been a few comments on PF recently be people who bought (or thought they bought) a pedigree dog but didn't care about not having papers because they weren't going to show. Almost an anti snobbery view coming through in one post that I recall. So people aren't going to bother going via the KC info - particularly if they can save £50!


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The thing is, good breeders don't need regulating, they do what they believe is in the best interests of the breed they love, or dogs that they love as not everyone who breeds does so to produce pedigrees.
> 
> I'd personally hate to be told I have to test for x, y and z, and the results have to be within these parameters. I'd prefer the KC to introduce something like a traffic light system, where it shows breeders who've health tested, taken great care to try and produce good *quality* pups with a good temperament, ability etc, so that puppy buyers can immediately look and see whether or not a breeder is doing their utmost when breeding. Maybe that traffic light system could incorporate not just the health tests, but include any shows won/entered, and other competitions, so it shows the breeder is trying to prove their dogs are a good example of the breed overall?? Just loose thoughts, but I'd prefer that sort of thing to restrictions on all breeders. People can be so arrogant, if they think they're buying something rare and unusual, but the breeder is rated all reds, ie not up to scratch, it would soon turn their opinions that buying a rare teacup blue chihuahua that's KC registered has a big red blob against the breeder - and I'd like to see that carry on through to the pedigree paperwork.


The problem with this is: who decides what is "green blob" worthy. What warrants a red one? And what is a red flag for one person is completely fine for another. I don't think it is that easy to determine a good breeder, if I'm perfectly honest. It's not a clear cut, black and white issue.


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> The problem with this is: who decides what is "green blob" worthy. What warrants a red one? And what is a red flag for one person is completely fine for another. I don't think it is that easy to determine a good breeder, if I'm perfectly honest. It's not a clear cut, black and white issue.


Very simple really, you put the work in to either show or compete with your dog, you do the recommended health tests and apply for a green blob giving your reasons why. Otherwise you're automatically assigned a red blob. Personally, I'd also like to see those who made the effort to gain a green blob, pay less for KC registration, with those who simply breed with the least amount of effort, having to pay a premium for KC registration.


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## rocco33

BessieDog said:


> Very interesting thoughts. Unfortunately there have been a few comments on PF recently be people who bought (or thought they bought) a pedigree dog* but didn't care about not having papers because they weren't going to show. *Almost an anti snobbery view coming through in one post that I recall. So people aren't going to bother going via the KC info - particularly if they can save £50!


It's a common excuse and shows huge ignorance from both buyer and breeder.

PS - it' doesn't cost £50 to register a puppy (ore like £15). Personally, I would never not register a puppy, but even if a breeder did withhold registration, if they charge more than £15 for a kc reg pup, then they are conning the buyer.


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## rocco33

terencesmum said:


> The problem with this is: who decides what is "green blob" worthy. What warrants a red one? And what is a red flag for one person is completely fine for another. I don't think it is that easy to determine a good breeder, if I'm perfectly honest. It's not a clear cut, black and white issue.


I agree, it's not easy and many byb come across as caring - they know how to hook a gullible puppy buyer in. Add to that, most pet owners criteria tend to be sentimental. The breeder 'loved' their dog etc etc. Which means nothing in breeding terms.


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## Darth

Are we talking making a profit from a one and only litter or are we talking more litters?

Obviously the first litter will entail all health tests and all other first litter essentials like whelping box, heat pads etc. 

For second and subsequent litters the "outlay" as such isn't so high.


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Very simple really, you put the work in to either show or compete with your dog, you do the recommended health tests and apply for a green blob giving your reasons why. Otherwise you're automatically assigned a red blob. Personally, I'd also like to see those who made the effort to gain a green blob, pay less for KC registration, with those who simply breed with the least amount of effort, having to pay a premium for KC registration.


But just showing or working your dog and doing the relevant health tests does not necessarily mean the breeder is any good. There is so much more to it than that. 
And the KC aren't exactly going to go for reducing the rates of litter registrations, are they? It's a form of revenue for them so they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.


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## rocco33

Darth said:


> Are we talking making a profit from a one and only litter or are we talking more litters?
> 
> Obviously the first litter will entail all health tests and all other first litter essentials like whelping box, heat pads etc.
> 
> For second and subsequent litters the "outlay" as such isn't so high.


That's making the assumption that breeders always take more than one litter from a bitch. Not all do, including me.

The reality is that it's completely unpredictable and to a certain extent down to luck, so most good breeders don't think of money when they breed and are prepared to make a loss if necessary. I breed because when I want a puppy from a really good bitch. It may be that I get a 'free' puppy, although has also worked out the most expensive pup I've had - not only cheaper to go and buy one, but a lot less work.

Then there may be the time you come out in front on a large litter. Of course, that doesn't take into account the time you may have had off work (unpaid), or the money you have 'invested' in getting the bitch to the stage where you make the decision that she's good enough to breed from.


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> But just showing or working your dog and doing the relevant health tests does not necessarily mean the breeder is any good. There is so much more to it than that.
> And the KC aren't exactly going to go for reducing the rates of litter registrations, are they? It's a form of revenue for them so they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.


The KC would make more money if they charged more for those who didn't health test and/or prove their dogs in some way, as it's only the minority of breeders who do either. And you are much more likely to find a good breeder who not only health tests, but also tries to campaign their dog in some way, otherwise why would they bother?



rocco33 said:


> That's making the assumption that breeders always take more than one litter from a bitch. Not all do, including me.
> 
> The reality is that it's completely unpredictable and to a certain extent down to luck, so most good breeders don't think of money when they breed and are prepared to make a loss if necessary. I breed because when I want a puppy from a really good bitch. It may be that I get a 'free' puppy, although has also worked out the most expensive pup I've had - not only cheaper to go and buy one, but a lot less work.
> 
> Then there may be the time you come out in front on a large litter. Of course, that doesn't take into account the time you may have had off work (unpaid), or the money you have 'invested' in getting the bitch to the stage where you make the decision that she's good enough to breed from.


I think at the moment, the only time I'd consider taking more than one litter, is if I had a bitch that I thought was worthwhile breeding from, and for whatever reason, the litter was so small, or even a singleton, where I didn't get what I wanted from the litter. Although that's not likely to happen, I think that's possibly the only time I'd consider it.


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## BessieDog

rocco33 said:


> PS - it' doesn't cost £50 to register a puppy (ore like £15). Personally, I would never not register a puppy, but even if a breeder did withhold registration, if they charge more than £15 for a kc reg pup, then they are conning the buyer.


I know that, and you know that, but that seems to be a common price quoted if they want to have the pup registered! 

Presumably as no one would be put of at having to pay the lesser sum.


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The KC would make more money if they charged more for those who didn't health test and/or prove their dogs in some way, as it's only the minority of breeders who do either. And you are much more likely to find a good breeder who not only health tests, but also tries to campaign their dog in some way, otherwise why would they bother?


Plenty of people just show their dogs to make them up as champions, do some health tests and then breed the living day lights out of them. There is a lot more to being a good breeder than just campaigning and health tests. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Plenty of people just show their dogs to make them up as champions, do some health tests and then breed the living day lights out of them. There is a lot more to being a good breeder than just campaigning and health tests. That's all I'm saying.


Well perhaps that could also be a consideration, the number of litters someone breeds. It was just loose ideas spewing out of my very disorganised mind, but there must be a simple way of saying good, not bad, awful. Let's face it, the puppy buying public are not that clued up, and you know from your own experience if someone seems nice, you *think* they care about what they're doing. If you'd read something that had big red warning lights all over it, then it may have made you think twice at that stage. Obviously you wouldn't swap Terence for the world, but you can't defend the people like his breeder, who do nothing to try and ensure they're producing pups with the best possible start in life.


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well perhaps that could also be a consideration, the number of litters someone breeds. It was just loose ideas spewing out of my very disorganised mind, but there must be a simple way of saying good, not bad, awful. Let's face it, the puppy buying public are not that clued up, and you know from your own experience if someone seems nice, you *think* they care about what they're doing. If you'd read something that had big red warning lights all over it, then it may have made you think twice at that stage. Obviously you wouldn't swap Terence for the world, but you can't defend the people like his breeder, who do nothing to try and ensure they're producing pups with the best possible start in life.


But it's NOT that easy to label breeders as "good" or "okay". The bad ones are easy to spot without health tests and breed knowledge but the somebody's "okay" is another person's "great". Where do you draw the "offical" line. Number of shows/tests entered or won? Have a sliding scale for health test results? Take the COI into consideration? So many variables to consider. To be honest, personally, I'd always like to make up my own mind anyway, so wouldn't necessarily pay much heed if there was a traffic light system.


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## BessieDog

Isn't there currently a limit on three litters per bitch to be an accredited breeder? Or am I making that up?


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## terencesmum

BessieDog said:


> Isn't there currently a limit on three litters per bitch to be an accredited breeder? Or am I making that up?


Yes, I think you're right although I personally wouldn't consider a breeder who has three litters from the same bitch.


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> But it's NOT that easy to label breeders as "good" or "okay". The bad ones are easy to spot without health tests and breed knowledge but the somebody's "okay" is another person's "great". Where do you draw the "offical" line. Number of shows/tests entered or won? Have a sliding scale for health test results? Take the COI into consideration? So many variables to consider. To be honest, personally, I'd always like to make up my own mind anyway, so wouldn't necessarily pay much heed if there was a traffic light system.


Ok, you come up with an idea and throw it out there?


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## 1290423

If you have a litter and you just sell one pup then you have taken money!
Whether you expenditure exceeds your income depends on whether you are an ethical breeder or not!
BUT there are MANY out there who make a packet from breeding!


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, you come up with an idea and throw it out there?


I'm not going to suggest anything because I'm not in favour of labelling breeders at all actually. I think all the relevant information is already out there for potential puppy buyers and if people are prepared to put some thought into getting a puppy, they will know to look for health tests and proven dogs in some kind of shape. So the assured breeder scheme is an alright (I stress, alright, not perfect) first sign post of where to look. It is up to the individual puppy buyers to look into the people they are buying from, ask questions, attend trials and shows. It is up to the individual puppy buyer to determine what they are comfortable with. 
I don't subscribe to the "one size fits all" idea of what a good breeder is at all.


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## pearltheplank

terencesmum said:


> . So the assured breeder scheme is an alright (I stress, alright, not perfect) first sign post of where to look.


Many of the breeders I know who show, have actually come out of the assured breeder scheme as its rife with puppy farmers! So an unknowing buyer could very easily be fooled into buying from a puppy farmer but think they are very good breeders


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## Meezey

Cian's breeder is not an assured breeder and refuses to be part of it, and she is the most ethical breeders I know, I'd rate her as outstanding so right now the assured breeder scheme is very flawed and needs to be done different!


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## terencesmum

pearltheplank said:


> Many of the breeders I know who show, have actually come out of the assured breeder scheme as its rife with puppy farmers! So an unknowing buyer could very easily be fooled into buying from a puppy farmer but think they are very good breeders


That's why I said it's a first indicator to look for health-tested litters. Doing proper research into your chosen breed should reveal the worst offenders. 
ETA: Albert's breeder is not an assured breeder. But I have done 2 years of research, attended shows, trials, spoke to owners, breeders. So I put the legwork in.


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## MerlinsMum

terencesmum said:


> That's why I said it's a first indicator to look for health-tested litters. Doing proper research into your chosen breed should reveal the worst offenders.
> ETA: Albert's breeder is not an assured breeder. But I have done 2 years of research, attended shows, trials, spoke to owners, breeders. So I put the legwork in.


That just about sums it up. 
Buy easy, buy cheap and that you get...

I guess myself and you are made of different material to other people; when it comes to living things we want to know and plan and choose well.

You can educate all you like but there will still be people who put more thought into buying a fridge-freezer than a dog. And fridge freezers don't bite.


----------



## love our big babies

Our total cost of our litter was 6k
Thats including health tests, c-section, vacs, chips, vet checks, worming, whelping supplies (ie puppy dog milk, pen, bottles, puppy saver etc) food for mum and pups, puppy packs, bear hearing tests, well everything you would expect and more lol for 8 pups.
Kept 2 back, sold 6 totalling 10k. One pup we had returned after 3 weeks with growing murmur our vet didn't detect at any of the 5 vet checks they had. Took him to a cardiologist and had an echocardiogram carried out which we paid for of course and refunded the owner cost of his pup. 
Our vacs and chips were £656 alone.

Loved every bit of it and would happily do all over again. Love how our new owners get so much love and happiness from our pups


----------



## kirksandallchins

I have never bred dog, but if you health test and breed ethically I can no see why making a profit - or at least breaking even - is frowned upon. Not everybody would be able to afford to loose £100s on each litter - which would only leave puppy farmers or the very rich monopolising dog breeding.

Reading old dog books, it appeared to be common practice that selling your well-bred but "surplus" puppies helped fund your showing and other dogs.


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## springerpete

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought I'd start this discussion, because it often comes up that people who breed, will make money. It's assumed, that at some point, over their *breeding career* there will be a profit.
> 
> I'd like to dispel that myth, at some points in time, you may end up cash rich, ie, you have a lot of cash in your hand, but that does not mean you are in profit.
> 
> So let's look at the costs, health testing for my two breeds is quite extensive, on average, I'd suggest it costs approx £700 each, including petrol costs driving to people who will take good quality plates. If anything isn't right, then that's at least £50 invested, which is the cost of the cheapest health test, for no return.
> 
> Equipment, I spent several hundred pounds on equipment for whelping, some of which can be used again, I need a new whelping box, I think mine cost about £70 from memory including delivery, and I went through various amounts of drugs which have a use by date so I will need them again. I'm guessing on average I've probably spent about £180 on things that I either made use of, or have gone past their sell by date, but bought in just in case I needed them.
> 
> Progesterone testing, at £60 a pop, driving it up to Idexx and paying for the vet to draw bloods, I reckon I spent at least £500 for five progesterone tests for Tau.
> 
> Stud dog fees and travel, Probably another £600 all told, so petrol and stud dog fees included.
> 
> Scans and ongoing treatment during pregnancy, probably about another £200 for a couple of trips, including a scan to confirm pregnancy.
> 
> Then you've got your increased bills, food etc, all of which soon hike up your utility bills by several hundred pounds over a short period. I know for a fact I was £1.5k in debt by the end of £2012, mostly down to the litter I had, I use very little otherwise.
> 
> And then for me, I may have come close to even, but Tau needed an emergency C-section, and then two pups died after trying to treat them, which in itself was close to £2.7k. I got £3k in payment for the five remaining pups. Work it out for yourself, those who think everyone is in it to make money, think again, and none of the money can ever make up for all of the hard work the heart ache of putting your bitch through a c-section (and spay) and losing pups that you've done your best to try and pull through.
> 
> So no, not everyone breeds for money, and if you think that's true of someone you're buying a pup from, then maybe you need to ask if you can find someone who breeds for something else.
> 
> Just to carry that on, and I've alluded to this in another thread, I'm probably going to be close to spending £3k on health testing and *campaigning* my two youngsters by the new year, and plan to travel to Europe to possibly see if I can find the right dog for Rhuna, pending on health test results, and how she pans out, although I can't see her temperament and ability being an issue. That's not a holiday, I don't have holidays, because my dogs come first, the dogs will stay at home in the care of one of the few people I trust with them, while I check out possible suitors.
> 
> Sorry for a bit of a rant, but it really is something that annoys me when people assume you are making vast sums of money from breeding, when it isn't always the case, I have lost lots of money so far from even breeding just the one litter. I did health tests on Tau's sister only to decide because her elbow plates weren't good, not to go ahead. I don't ever count on recouping that money, I don't want to, that's not what I'm involved with *breeding* for.


Well said, none of the people I've ever bought a pup from has made money from it. They're lucky if they break even most times.


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## Sleeping_Lion

kirksandallchins said:


> I have never bred dog, but if you health test and breed ethically I can no see why making a profit - or at least breaking even - is frowned upon. Not everybody would be able to afford to loose £100s on each litter - which would only leave puppy farmers or the very rich monopolising dog breeding.
> 
> Reading old dog books, it appeared to be common practice that selling your well-bred but "surplus" puppies helped fund your showing and other dogs.


The precursor to Crufts, the gamekeeper's ring, was actually set up to *sell* your dog, either literally, or to sell their ability, and hopefully people would be impressed enough to come to you for dogs. What were considered vast sums of money changed hands, nothing changes, as now, a win at Crufts pretty much guarantees custom for breeding.

Everyone has their own bar when it comes to the sort of breeding practices they'd accept. My ideas are *fluid*, I don't like some breeders who I'd thought more highly of over the years, and yet accept some breeders that may not seem so obviously *good* in comparison. I'm not right in comparison with some others beliefs about what is acceptable, and I wouldn't expect many of us to agree with what we *think* is a good breeder. I know in flatcoats I'm probably not going to find many people who do the same tests as I'd like to see happen, elbow grading and patella luxation grading are not common. But then again, ten years ago, elbow grading in Labs wasn't common, but we're now having more and more diagnosed problems in that specific area, for me, ignoring it until it becomes a problem isn't an option. I was actually told at one show where I discussed elbow grading with another flatcoat owner, that I'd be wasting my money, as no-one else was bothering.


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## Sleeping_Lion

DT said:


> If you have a litter and you just sell one pup then you have taken money!
> Whether you expenditure exceeds your income depends on whether you are an ethical breeder or not!
> BUT there are MANY out there who make a packet from breeding!


I had £2,400 in cash sat in the kitchen dresser draw at one point, although Rhuna ate a £20 note so that was another slight loss on the income front!!


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## Cay

When you look at the amount you make per hour you are better off having a minimum wage job, at least you get time to yourself. Take your average litter of 6 and sell them for £650 each, if you had no costs you would make £3,500 but when you divide that by 24/7 for 8 weeks it comes out at £2.60 per hour.


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## MerlinsMum

Cay said:


> When you look at the amount you make per hour you are better off having a minimum wage job, at least you get time to yourself. Take your average litter of 6 and sell them for £650 each, if you had no costs you would make £3,500 but when you divide that by 24/7 for 8 weeks it comes out at £2.60 per hour.


This is what most people fail to take into account. Puppies are hard work if you do it properly.

Of course if you allowed the bitch to give birth on her own in a kennel, keep the litter in there and just take them out once a day, socialise them as little as possible, selling at 6 weeks - then with cleaning and feeding you'd be spending only a couple of hours a day "working" and you could probably manage to hold down a full-time job as well.

I cringe when i read on FB selling sites how many people let the bitch get on with it "Oh I don't like to watch, I'm squeamish/don't like to interfere/don't want her to reject them". I've seen photos posted of a bitch giving birth on a laminate floor, no whelping box, and just a thin blanket. The same "breeders" (producers in my book) then barely interact with the bitch and puppies until weaning, then it's Quick get them out of here! by 6 weeks, when they are messy and smelly and noisy.

Some of them are horrified when I ask them if they are sleeping with the bitch to make sure none get rolled on, because of course, "That's just nature"


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## Sleeping_Lion

MerlinsMum said:


> This is what most people fail to take into account. Puppies are hard work if you do it properly.
> 
> Of course if you allowed the bitch to give birth on her own in a kennel, keep the litter in there and just take them out once a day, socialise them as little as possible, selling at 6 weeks - then with cleaning and feeding you'd be spending only a couple of hours a day "working" and you could probably manage to hold down a full-time job as well.
> 
> I cringe when i read on FB selling sites how many people let the bitch get on with it "Oh I don't like to watch, I'm squeamish/don't like to interfere/don't want her to reject them". I've seen photos posted of a bitch giving birth on a laminate floor, no whelping box, and just a thin blanket. The same "breeders" (producers in my book) then barely interact with the bitch and puppies until weaning, then it's Quick get them out of here! by 6 weeks, when they are messy and smelly and noisy.
> 
> Some of them are horrified when I ask them if they are sleeping with the bitch to make sure none get rolled on, because of course, "That's just nature"


Gawd, I don't expect many hours sleep in any case, but I still remember sleeping on the kitchen floor with Tau, waiting for the pups, and then after the pups had arrived. And then you've got your other dogs to sort out. I prefer my full time job for the money earning thing, it's more dangerous, but at least it's earned off my own back, and I'm not prostituting my dogs to supplement my income. I'm sure associating that sort of terminology might offend some people, but that's what most breeders are unfortunately.


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## MerlinsMum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Gawd, I don't expect many hours sleep in any case, but I still remember sleeping on the kitchen floor with Tau, waiting for the pups, and then after the pups had arrived. And then you've got your other dogs to sort out. I prefer my full time job for the money earning thing, it's more dangerous, but at least it's earned off my own back, and *I'm not prostituting my dogs to supplement my income*. I'm sure associating that sort of terminology might offend some people, but that's what most breeders are unfortunately.


That's what it is in many cases these days. "A bit of extra income" for many - and it's very sad.

A friend with an English Mastiff puppy had someone screech to a halt in a Landrover today to ask if she would breed him to her Bullmastiff, and she's always getting asked when she's going to put him out to stud  He's 18 weeks.....FFS.

I have not bred dogs but fully understand the requirements to do it properly, knowing many breeders and having once lived with a breeder of Bedlingtons. I did breed cats while holding down a full time job, but I was in my 20's then and had a lot more energy than I have now.

When you have Siamese/Oriental cats who can have 6-7 kittens every time and you have to keep them til their jabs are done at 12-14 weeks, that does become hard work... and yes, I had to take off 2 weeks to cover the birth and care for the queen in the early days. It's not easy coming home after a day's work to cope with 6-7 hyper creatures climbing up everything including your legs, the curtains, your arms, attacking your feet, your hands and doing what a bunch of high-octane kittens normally do at that age - every day for 7 weeks.

My employers even gave me a written warning when I had to take am emergency day off after a tragedy and needed to take some kittens up to Lincolnshire to be fostered by a surrogate mother.


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## Blitz

love our big babies said:


> Our total cost of our litter was 6k
> Thats including health tests, c-section, vacs, chips, vet checks, worming, whelping supplies (ie puppy dog milk, pen, bottles, puppy saver etc) food for mum and pups, puppy packs, bear hearing tests, well everything you would expect and more lol for 8 pups.
> Kept 2 back, sold 6 totalling 10k. One pup we had returned after 3 weeks with growing murmur our vet didn't detect at any of the 5 vet checks they had. Took him to a cardiologist and had an echocardiogram carried out which we paid for of course and refunded the owner cost of his pup.
> Our vacs and chips were £656 alone.
> 
> Loved every bit of it and would happily do all over again. Love how our new owners get so much love and happiness from our pups


Not a bad bit of pin money!



Cay said:


> When you look at the amount you make per hour you are better off having a minimum wage job, at least you get time to yourself. Take your average litter of 6 and sell them for £650 each, if you had no costs you would make £3,500 but when you divide that by 24/7 for 8 weeks it comes out at £2.60 per hour.


Why on earth would you be spending 24/7 for 8 weeks. Most people (whether it is is frowned upon or not) will be getting on with their lives and going to work or shopping or whatever. It is still a big committment but nothing like that.

Of course most people that breed make money though a lot will not care one way or the other.

I know someone that has just bred a litter, 11 puppies at £600 each, not bad. There have been a lot of vets bills and she had a couple of nights on the sofa but even supposing the costs are £2000 that is still a tidy profit.


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## 1290423

Cay said:


> When you look at the amount you make per hour you are better off having a minimum wage job, at least you get time to yourself. Take your average litter of 6 and sell them for £650 each, if you had no costs you would make £3,500 but when you divide that by 24/7 for 8 weeks it comes out at £2.60 per hour.


Better pay then being a full time mother/housewife then!


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## 1290423

Christmas for some is paid for by a litter of pups!


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## MerlinsMum

DT said:


> Christmas for some is paid for by a litter of pups!


Crap Christmas if the bitch missed, needed a c-section or had fading puppies, then.
It's just wrong to hang future income on animals.

And the tax people are getting very wise these days with all the BYBs breeding for money - as well as local authorities. I saw an article today stating that Stoke on Trent are banning dog breeding from tenants in their council properties, as a response to the ridiculous overbreeding for cash.


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## Sleeping_Lion

MerlinsMum said:


> Crap Christmas if the bitch missed, needed a c-section or had fading puppies, then.
> It's just wrong to hang future income on animals.
> 
> And the tax people are getting very wise these days with all the BYBs breeding for money - as well as local authorities. I saw an article today stating that Stoke on Trent are banning dog breeding from tenants in their council properties, as a response to the ridiculous overbreeding for cash.


I'd be interested to see how they're going to enforce this, are they going to reduce benefits for people advertising pups for sale?


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## Darth

MerlinsMum said:


> It's just wrong to hang future income on animals.


So....at the risk of being shot down in flames....what's the difference between breeding dogs or cats to cows and sheep?

I don't see anything wrong with having a litter from a pet bitch providing the parents are health tested, well cared for and the puppies the same.

I find it harder to accept breeding from bitches kept in outside dilapidated kennels, no health tests and puppies left to their own devices. There are many puppies born in these conditions from show and working dogs. Retired bitches are kept just to breed from and get the next generation before being rehomed at the end of her breeding career.

Pet bitches are very often better cared for than retired show or working bitches.

When you take into consideration of the cost to keep the bitch throughout her life plus breeding costs there isn't a lot of profit to be made, just an injection of cash when pups are sold. Pretty much like a livestock farmer.


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## havoc

> I saw an article today stating that Stoke on Trent are banning dog breeding from tenants in their council properties, as a response to the ridiculous overbreeding for cash.
> 
> I'd be interested to see how they're going to enforce this, are they going to reduce benefits for people advertising pups for sale?


No need to get complicated with benefits. Presumably they'll simply be evicted for breaching the terms of their tenancy.


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## lilythepink

Darth said:


> So....at the risk of being shot down in flames....what's the difference between breeding dogs or cats to cows and sheep?
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with having a litter from a pet bitch providing the parents are health tested, well cared for and the puppies the same.
> 
> I find it harder to accept breeding from bitches kept in outside dilapidated kennels, no health tests and puppies left to their own devices. There are many puppies born in these conditions from show and working dogs. Retired bitches are kept just to breed from and get the next generation before being rehomed at the end of her breeding career.
> 
> Pet bitches are very often better cared for than retired show or working bitches.
> 
> When you take into consideration of the cost to keep the bitch throughout her life plus breeding costs there isn't a lot of profit to be made, just an injection of cash when pups are sold. Pretty much like a livestock farmer.


when farmers breed cows and sheep its for either the table or for future breeding.

A cow usually has 1 calf, maybe 2.anything more is out of the ordinary.Nobody would take a calf to a rescue or abandon it on the street somewhere.

Sheep often have 2 lambs, occasionally triplets. These also end up being sold for breeding or going into the freezer.

A calf can be weaned and sold from 7 days old and milk fed out of a bucket for approx 8 weeks...longer if its going to another cow. Sheep a similar time.

A dog can have many pups in a litter and most pups sell for more than either a calf or a lamb at 8 weeks old.

The problem with people breeding and breeding puppies is there are far too many of them and its a very lucrative business.All shelters/rescues will tell the same story.they are full to bursting, winter is coming fast and funds are low. Where are the rescues that say the same about farm animals?

Also, I don't think anybody in a house would go and buy a sheep and let her have babies cos it just won't work.....and the lambs are not worth much anyway..a dog on the other hand..well.


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## donna160

thankyou for this thread it has really opened my eyes and has made me think more carefully.

i know relatively little and i have to admit i always believed -ignorantly- that breeders were in it solely to make money.
i knew there were good caring breeders out there but i mistakenly believed it was a form of income and ive never believed it is right to make money by selling animals.
im really happy to know that people who are genuine are not treating their pets as money making machines.

i feel so stupid and ignorant now  im so glad i came upon this thread


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> So....at the risk of being shot down in flames....what's the difference between breeding dogs or cats to cows and sheep?
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with having a litter from a pet bitch providing the parents are health tested, well cared for and the puppies the same.
> 
> I find it harder to accept breeding from bitches kept in outside dilapidated kennels, no health tests and puppies left to their own devices. There are many puppies born in these conditions from show and working dogs. Retired bitches are kept just to breed from and get the next generation before being rehomed at the end of her breeding career.
> 
> Pet bitches are very often better cared for than retired show or working bitches.
> 
> When you take into consideration of the cost to keep the bitch throughout her life plus breeding costs there isn't a lot of profit to be made, just an injection of cash when pups are sold. Pretty much like a livestock farmer.


This a very sweeping and generised statement just so to not get just one side if the story, many bitches from show or working are much better kept than pet dogs  many pet dogs are just left in gardens with no shelter, allowed to have litters every season to what ever dogs are passing, they never receive vet treatment they are never walked or treated as part of the family, they are given away for free when family has had enough , handed in to rescue or just dumped.

While I agree some breeders treat their bitches like the above post, Darth would seem to give impression the majority are..... I know a lot of pets are treated awful, but I would never assume most are, so why does everyone think it's okay to assume what most breeders are like?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Darth said:


> So....at the risk of being shot down in flames....what's the difference between breeding dogs or cats to cows and sheep?
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with having a litter from a pet bitch providing the parents are health tested, well cared for and the puppies the same.
> 
> I find it harder to accept breeding from bitches kept in outside dilapidated kennels, no health tests and puppies left to their own devices. There are many puppies born in these conditions from show and working dogs. Retired bitches are kept just to breed from and get the next generation before being rehomed at the end of her breeding career.
> 
> Pet bitches are very often better cared for than retired show or working bitches.
> 
> When you take into consideration of the cost to keep the bitch throughout her life plus breeding costs there isn't a lot of profit to be made, just an injection of cash when pups are sold. Pretty much like a livestock farmer.


I don't agree at all, the bit about cows and sheep has been answered eloquently above, but as far as show/working dogs go, yes, some are kept kennelled, many are kept in the home though, and are also *pets*. Zasa's sire and the dogs from that kennel were actually kept kennelled, it was immaculate, I've known numerous working dogs kept kennelled, again, in immaculate conditions. There will be some that aren't kept as well, but in all honesty, I think there will be more pet dogs that are kept in poor conditions, and do not have their needs met as well. I'm not sure where your perception of show/working dogs comes from, but it seems to be very slanted towards a negative view.


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## dandogman

Personally, I would have no problem in a breeder making money from having a litter provided it is done properly. 
Top breeders put their heart and soul into each litter, probably up most of the night as well as constant cleaning up during the day. 
In these cases though, the breeders interest isn't in making the money though, it's in breeding and raising quality animals so I guess they wouldn't be 'breeding for money'.


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## BessieDog

Kept kennelled suugests they are never taken out. Unless show dogs are excercised regularly they wouldn't have the muscle development to do well in the show ring.


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## Darth

BessieDog said:


> Kept kennelled suugests they are never taken out. Unless show dogs are excercised regularly they wouldn't have the muscle development to do well in the show ring.


No one said they weren't taken out for excersise....I know many show owners, and agility dog owners who keep their dogs in outside kennels but excersise them daily.


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## Meezey

Darth said:


> No one said they weren't taken out for excersise....I know many show owners, and agility dog owners who keep their dogs in outside kennels but excersise them daily.


And I know lots of show owners who don't keep their dog in kennels at all, I mean what are the chances of that? Oh and I'm one if them. I knows pet owners who keep their dogs outside all day and night with no shelter!!


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> And I know lots of show owners who don't keep their dog in kennels at all, I mean what are the chances of that? Oh and I'm one if them. I knows pet owners who keep their dogs outside all day and night with no shelter!!


Exactly....every owner and breeder should be judged individually.

Just because it's a pet bitch doesn't mean you're a byb breeder and don't do any health tests any more than if you show dogs in any capacity you keep them outside.

Breeding dogs is no different than any other livestock, only the reason for breeding.


----------



## rocco33

Darth said:


> So....at the risk of being shot down in flames....what's the difference between breeding dogs or cats to cows and sheep?


There's a big difference. Firstly, dogs and cats become family members and need to be of good temperament both genetically as well as their early environmental influences and socialising in order to live happily in a human environment. Cows and sheep are raised for slaughter (food) or for breeding. None of those factors apply except maybe for the odd exception - and even then, I doubt 'pet' cows or sheep live in the home.

The owners of dogs and cats have a huge emotional attachment to their dogs and cats (or most do and all should do), I have yet to find anyone who has the same lengthy attachment with a T-bone!



Darth said:


> I don't see anything wrong with having a litter from a pet bitch providing the parents are health tested, well cared for and the puppies the same.


I don't see anything wrong with having a litter from a pet bitch either, but there is an awful lot more to breeding than ensuring the parents are health tested and well cared for. Most pet litters are raised in ignorance and it is assumed that doing health tests is enough. If the pet owner has done their homework - and I mean actually done it, not just thought they'd done it, then fair enough. I'd add that it is much more difficult for a pet owner because they do not have the easy access to all the information that those involved in their breed do, whether that be working or showing. Not impossible, but much more difficult.



> I find it harder to accept breeding from bitches kept in outside dilapidated kennels, no health tests and puppies left to their own devices. There are many puppies born in these conditions from show and working dogs. Retired bitches are kept just to breed from and get the next generation before being rehomed at the end of her breeding career.


What about well kept kennels that aren't dilapidated! 
The reality is that many dogs love being in their kennels, just as much as others like being in the home. I have a bitch lying on the sofa behind me now that was raised in a kennel. Some of her littermates are kept in the home, some are kenneled - all are equally happy and contented.

I think what you are talking about as far as no health tests, puppies left to their own devices apply to byb, including many pet breeders, as much, if not more than working /show breeders. What you seem to fail to understand is that those who work/show their dogs have a vested interest in producing quality dogs (whether raised in the kennels or outside).



> Pet bitches are very often better cared for than retired show or working bitches.


I'd dispute that 



> When you take into consideration of the cost to keep the bitch throughout her life plus breeding costs there isn't a lot of profit to be made, just an injection of cash when pups are sold. Pretty much like a livestock farmer.


I think money is secondary to most working /show breeders. If there is any profit made on an individual litter, then it tends to be used on the dogs. Most are involved in dogs as a hobby, whether that's working or showing them or some other activity. The costs of that the care of their dogs and participating in that activity are huge when compared to any 'profit' that may be made on a litter, so it is not done as an income.


----------



## Gelbe retrievers

It's an absolute myth that breeding is big money, and anyone who does it for that hope is litterally barking mad!! i breed 8 generation pedigree golden retrievers that can sell for 950-1000 each, but the work and dedication is 24-7 especially when mum stops cleaning up after tem at about 3 weeks then the wee and poo is down to the breeder, retrievers are big dogs with big litters, my last litter was 11, thats 8 weeks of bloody hard slog, you can be paying £100 aweek just in puppy pads, kc registration is hundreds of pounds thats before weaning food and vet bills and if god forbid you need a c section you can kiss good-bye to £2000 if its out of hours, not saying there's nothing to be made but it doesn't make you a millionaire!!


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## Blitz

Gelbe retrievers said:


> It's an absolute myth that breeding is big money, and anyone who does it for that hope is litterally barking mad!! i breed 8 generation pedigree golden retrievers that can sell for 950-1000 each, but the work and dedication is 24-7 especially when mum stops cleaning up after tem at about 3 weeks then the wee and poo is down to the breeder, retrievers are big dogs with big litters, my last litter was 11, thats 8 weeks of bloody hard slog, you can be paying £100 aweek just in puppy pads, kc registration is hundreds of pounds thats before weaning food and vet bills and if god forbid you need a c section you can kiss good-bye to £2000 if its out of hours, not saying there's nothing to be made but it doesn't make you a millionaire!!


Why would you be paying £100 a week for puppy pads  I cannot imagine how it could cost that - and anyway what is wrong with newspaper. KC registration is not hundreds of pounds, it is a negligible amount.

Surely GRs do not sell for that much though, sounds an excessive amount - there must be a very great deal of money in a litter of 11 at that price.


----------



## rocco33

Blitz said:


> Why would you be paying £100 a week for puppy pads  I cannot imagine how it could cost that - and anyway what is wrong with newspaper. *KC registration is not hundreds of pounds, it is a negligible amount*.
> 
> Surely GRs do not sell for that much though, sounds an excessive amount - there must be a very great deal of money in a litter of 11 at that price.


Well, for a litter of 11 it would be nearly £200 , although I agree about the puppy pads - newspaper will do the job, just need to collect it well in advance because you go through a lot!

There are short cuts that I would not make though - having proper whelping exquipment and box (it horrifies me seeing a litter in a crate), good food for both mum and pups and vet care.


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## Old Shep

There is a problem of just too many litters being bred, surely? I feel the KC could do way much more then they are at present to address the issue of poorly bred puppies and unsuitably placed pups.


For a start, most pet dog owners don't even look at th eKC website for information. All the " how to choose a good breeder" stuff online is mainly sought by those who are already aware there is a problem.
The KC is a very wealthy organisation. Where are the TV and billboard adverts encouraging prospective puppy owners to buy carefully? The educational stuff the public should be aware of? How to spot a puppy farmer?

I met 3 seemingly very nice, caring owners of new puppies in the vet waiting room. Recently. They were there for their pups vacs. NOT ONE had bought from what could in anyone's world be called a reliable source! One from gumtree, one from "a nice woman who brought the pup to us" and one from a Facebook page! These were not stupid, or uncaring people- they were UNINFORMED people!!

The Kennel Club have a clear role in educating the general public. A few carefully made TV campaigns showing the dangers of pay farming and how to spot a good breeder. It infuriates me that they are turning a blind eye to this when they could be such a force for good. All the info on their site is useless if the people who SHOULD be reading it are not even aware it's there.

I help at a friends training class, and the ease with which people acquire entirely unsuitable dogs is breathtaking. The 70 year old man with angina sold a GSD. The young, professional couple in a third floor city flat sold a GSP. The results are there to see. Most of these unsuitable dogs go on to be either PTS or re homed (if they are very lucky). These owners are NOT stupid., as I said, they are uninformed.

Sorry. Bit of a bugbear of mine.


----------



## Meezey

Old Shep said:


> There is a problem of just too many litters being bred, surely? I feel the KC could do way much more then they are at present to address the issue of poorly bred puppies and unsuitably placed pups.
> 
> For a start, most pet dog owners don't even look at th eKC website for information. All the " how to choose a good breeder" stuff online is mainly sought by those who are already aware there is a problem.
> The KC is a very wealthy organisation. Where are the TV and billboard adverts encouraging prospective puppy owners to buy carefully? The educational stuff the public should be aware of? How to spot a puppy farmer?
> 
> I met 3 seemingly very nice, caring owners of new puppies in the vet waiting room. Recently. They were there for their pups vacs. NOT ONE had bought from what could in anyone's world be called a reliable source! One from gumtree, one from "a nice woman who brought the pup to us" and one from a Facebook page! These were not stupid, or uncaring people- they were UNINFORMED people!!
> 
> The Kennel Club have a clear role in educating the general public. A few carefully made TV campaigns showing the dangers of pay farming and how to spot a good breeder. It infuriates me that they are turning a blind eye to this when they could be such a force for good. All the info on their site is useless if the people who SHOULD be reading it are not even aware it's there.
> 
> I help at a friends training class, and the ease with which people acquire entirely unsuitable dogs is breathtaking. The 70 year old man with angina sold a GSD. The young, professional couple in a third floor city flat sold a GSP. The results are there to see. Most of these unsuitable dogs go on to be either PTS or re homed (if they are very lucky). These owners are NOT stupid., as I said, they are uninformed.
> 
> Sorry. Bit of a bugbear of mine.


Yet you look at the amount of people here who say " don't want a KC registered dog as I don't want to breed or show" why would people want a KC registered puppy who will cost them a few hundred when they can get a pedigree for £50? People would have to live without TV, internet or papers to not know about byb and puppy farmers!

Utter bugbare of mine is the KC getting the blame for everything!


----------



## Old Shep

Sorry, I don't understand Meezey.
"Why would people want a KC registered puppy when they can get a pedigree one for..." Is that a typo, or can you explain, please?


Also, your comments about the awareness of puppy farmers amongst the general dog owning public is, in my experience, not the case. They may have heard of puppy farms, and even seen pictures, but have have ABSOLUTLY no idea what constitutes a puppy farm and what to look for. They don't know to ask to see the bitch and that excuses such as "we have to keep them apart because......she's tired/the pups are very demanding/she's out a walk just now" just are not acceptable. They don't know that someone offering to deliver the pup is a big no no. They don't even know that gumtree and Facebook are used by irresponsible breeders to advertise. I KNOW this because I meet these well meaning people every week at the dog training class. As I said ey are not stupid, they are UNINFORMED.

The KC constitution/Articles of Association state that dog welfare so one of the areas of this work, yet it would appear to be the one they do least about.


----------



## Meezey

Old Shep said:


> Sorry, I don't understand Meezey.
> "Why would people want a KC registered puppy when they can get a pedigree one for..." Is that a typo, or can you explain, please?
> 
> Also, your comments about the awareness of puppy farmers amongst the general dog owning public is, in my experience, not the case. They may have heard of puppy farms, and even seen pictures, but have have ABSOLUTLY no idea what constitutes a puppy farm and what to look for. They don't know to ask to see the bitch and that excuses such as "we have to keep them apart because......she's tired/the pups are very demanding/she's out a walk just now" just are not acceptable. They don't know that someone offering to deliver the pup is a big no no. They don't even know that gumtree and Facebook are used by irresponsible breeders to advertise. I KNOW this because I meet these well meaning people every week at the dog training class. As I said ey are not stupid, they are UNINFORMED.
> 
> The KC constitution/Articles of Association state that dog welfare so one of the areas of this work, yet it would appear to be the one they do least about.


Meaning most people will not pay £700 for a KC registered health tested dog when they could get the same breed unregistered for £50.

Kennel Club in the news
How the Kennel Club supports canine health

Where they advertise and what they do for welfare.


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## kodakkuki

Meezey said:


> Meaning most people will not pay £700 for a KC registered health tested dog when they could get the same breed unregistered for £50.
> 
> Kennel Club in the news
> How the Kennel Club supports canine health
> 
> Where they advertise and what they do for welfare.


And we also have all the uspca campaign posters about the place- they had some excellent ones up all over belfast before Xmas, yet there were still hundreds of pups bought on a whim


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## lilythepink

People will always buy whatever is in fashion at the time and pay through the nose for it.They don't care about health testing . 

Its one thing showing and breeding puppies and the dog has a life outside of a kennel and another thing altogether a dog being bred time and again simply for money.

I wouldn't object to buying a pup from somebody who was at least honest about making money....and the dog and bitch/es were well looked after and the pups were in good condition and well socialised.

If showing homes bred to improve the breed and to continue the line for showing etc then they would give excess pups away for free to ensure a good home, wouldn't they?

If an average large size bitch was health tested and then went on to produce 4 litters of pups of 10 a litter and sold each pup for £1000 thats a lot of money....who says there isn't any money in it?


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## Blitz

Meezey said:


> Meaning most people will not pay £700 for a KC registered health tested dog when they could get the same breed unregistered for £50.


I have never seen any pups advertised for £50 let alone purebred ones. Most breeds seem to be more like £400 instead of £700 so cheaper but still a substantial price. I would prefer a registered pup but it does not bother me enough to pay an extra £300 I am afraid, though I have owned plenty of registered dogs and have always registered any pups I have bred.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lilythepink said:


> People will always buy whatever is in fashion at the time and pay through the nose for it.They don't care about health testing .
> 
> Its one thing showing and breeding puppies and the dog has a life outside of a kennel and another thing altogether a dog being bred time and again simply for money.
> 
> I wouldn't object to buying a pup from somebody who was at least honest about making money....and the dog and bitch/es were well looked after and the pups were in good condition and well socialised.
> 
> If showing homes bred to improve the breed and to continue the line for showing etc then they would give excess pups away for free to ensure a good home, wouldn't they?
> 
> If an average large size bitch was health tested and then went on to produce 4 litters of pups of 10 a litter and sold each pup for £1000 thats a lot of money....who says there isn't any money in it?


I sold five pups, and ended up between £3-£4k in the red. There is no money in breeding responsibly. I charged £600 per pup, but after all associated costs was very much out of pocket.


----------



## Meezey

Blitz said:


> I have never seen any pups advertised for £50 let alone purebred ones. Most breeds seem to be more like £400 instead of £700 so cheaper but still a substantial price. I would prefer a registered pup but it does not bother me enough to pay an extra £300 I am afraid, though I have owned plenty of registered dogs and have always registered any pups I have bred.


It was a random monetary value 
Case and point for old Shep though!


----------



## Meezey

lilythepink said:


> People will always buy whatever is in fashion at the time and pay through the nose for it.They don't care about health testing .
> 
> Its one thing showing and breeding puppies and the dog has a life outside of a kennel and another thing altogether a dog being bred time and again simply for money.
> 
> I wouldn't object to buying a pup from somebody who was at least honest about making money....and the dog and bitch/es were well looked after and the pups were in good condition and well socialised.
> 
> If showing homes bred to improve the breed and to continue the line for showing etc then they would give excess pups away for free to ensure a good home, wouldn't they?
> 
> If an average large size bitch was health tested and then went on to produce 4 litters of pups of 10 a litter and sold each pup for £1000 thats a lot of money....who says there isn't any money in it?


My breeder, breeds to keep pups, bitches have only 2 litters, parents are hip, elbow, heart, eye and DNA tested, and temperament tested, they then have stud fees, puppies are heart tested and eyes checked, vaccinated and DNA tested I paid much less than £1000, all dogs live in the house, she gave a puppy to someone who took on an older dog returned to her, she also kept a bitch herself 7 pups to sell, she did not make a penny!


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## Darth

I sold five pups, and ended up between £3-£4k in the red. There is no money in breeding responsibly. I charged £600 per pup, but after all associated costs was very much out of pocket

I don't think this is true in every case, in fact I know it isn't. It depends what breed you have, if everything goes well for Mum and pups, how many litters you breed and what health tests are required. The first litter is always going to cost more to breed because of the breeders outlay, but subsequent litters are much cheaper to breed.

You certainly can't say there's no money in breeding responsibly, it's such a sweeping statement.


----------



## Old Shep

Meezey said:


> It was a random monetary value
> Case and point for old Shep though!


I suspect that's a dig at me, but I have absolutly no idea what you are getting at!


----------



## Moobli

dandogman said:


> Personally, I would have no problem in a breeder making money from having a litter provided it is done properly.
> Top breeders put their heart and soul into each litter, probably up most of the night as well as constant cleaning up during the day.
> In these cases though, the breeders interest isn't in making the money though, it's in breeding and raising quality animals so I guess they wouldn't be 'breeding for money'.


There is no shame in a breeder making a profit from breeding dogs imo - so long as those dogs are of excellent temperament and health, are good examples of their particular breed and type and there are plenty of suitable homes available. That the breeder has good experience and knowledge of the dogs they are producing and are happy to take back any pups (at any stage in their life) if the home can no longer keep them.


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## Nicky10

I don't see anything wrong with a breeder who does everything right making money, rare as it is. It's when people set out with the intention of making money that corners start getting cut.


----------



## Meezey

Old Shep said:


> I suspect that's a dig at me, but I have absolutly no idea what you are getting at!


Wasn't a dig at you Blitz stated she wouldn't pay more for a registered dog which was what I said, can't blame the KC for that nor can it be said the person is uninformed, so the blame can not be just laid at the KC's door.


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## Old Shep

I also have no objection to people profiting out of breeding providing the puppies are ethically and responsibly bred.

This seems to be a peculiarity of the canine world. In the horse world, breeding from highly performing horses for profit is not scorned. There are very many less highly performing horses bred from that dogs, though.


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## shamykebab

It isn't impossible to make a profit if you breed ethically. I sold four pups last summer at £600 each, kept one back for myself, and still made a few hundred pounds profit. 

Both parents were fully health tested, the dam was progesterone tested several times before mating, the pups were weaned onto high quality food (Arden Grange), the litter was microchipped and DNA tested before being sold, and I even had the misfortune of needing to use the out of hours vet service over a bank holiday weekend when the litter took ill for a few days. 

It wasn't a huge profit, but it was a profit nonetheless, and I don't see any shame in that at all.


----------



## 8tansox

Blitz said:


> I have never seen any pups advertised for £50 let alone purebred ones. Most breeds seem to be more like £400 instead of £700 so cheaper but still a substantial price. I would prefer a registered pup but it does not bother me enough to pay an extra £300 I am afraid, though I have owned plenty of registered dogs and have always registered any pups I have bred.


We see lots of Collies and JRT puppies on sale here for £50.00, I've seen a Bearded Collie x on sale for £25.00......or the farmer was going to drown the lot.

Lurchers go around here around £100.00 if they're "gooduns", everything else lurcher wise can be for a tenner up.


----------



## Old Shep

Meezey said:


> Wasn't a dig at you Blitz stated she wouldn't pay more for a registered dog which was what I said, can't blame the KC for that nor can it be said the person is uninformed, so the blame can not be just laid at the KC's door.


Sorry, apologies. There's a lot of prickliness online tonight 

I don't think you can equate the average member here with the average dog owner. Generally, people here are better informed.

The prices of dogs don't seem to always be related to heather they are KC registered or not. My brother wanted a springer from known working parents and chose an unregistered dog, which probably cost more than a bog standard springer. 
And look at the prices people pay for amusing names! Let's breed a bulldog with a shitzu and call it a bullshit! What a laugh!

Unscrupulous breeders don't even have to try hard because the general public can be so uninformed. I met a man walking what I took to be a large mongrel. He went on to tell me proudly that it was an "Irish Rottweiler" which was very rare. It had cost him a four figure sum! To me it looked like a cross between a German shepherd and a collie with a bit of lab thrown in. A nice dog, but not any kind of rottie I've even known!

Of course, there are always going to be stupid dog buyers, though


----------



## Nicky10

Old Shep said:


> Sorry, apologies. There's a lot of prickliness online tonight
> 
> I don't think you can equate the average member here with the average dog owner. Generally, people here are better informed.
> 
> The prices of dogs don't seem to always be related to heather they are KC registered or not. My brother wanted a springer from known working parents and chose an unregistered dog, which probably cost more than a bog standard springer.
> *And look at the prices people pay for amusing names! Let's breed a bulldog with a shitzu and call it a bullshit! What a laugh! *
> 
> Unscrupulous breeders don't even have to try hard because the general public can be so uninformed. I met a man walking what I took to be a large mongrel. He went on to tell me proudly that it was an "Irish Rottweiler" which was very rare. It had cost him a four figure sum! To me it looked like a cross between a German shepherd and a collie with a bit of lab thrown in. A nice dog, but not any kind of rottie I've even known!
> 
> Of course, there are always going to be stupid dog buyers, though


You say that as a joke I have met a jack russel/shih tzu who the owners bought because of the name. No idea how much they paid though. It was admittedly a very cute puppy.

I've seen a few puppies advertised for 50-100 but mostly accidental matings. Of course if the cross is in demand some will breed again and ask for stupid money because the first litter was so popular.


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## Old Shep

I ABSOLUTLY disapprove of breeding for frivolous reasons. A humerous name combo is about as frivolous as you can get!


----------



## kodakkuki

i dunno, many do see shame in making any profit- and if a breeder makes profit then they bred for money and need to be shot.
my kukis litter made me nothing! but she only had 3 pups- 1 keeper and the boys, but thankfully i managed to break even!
missys 2&3 litters made my mum money- but a litter of 6 yorkie pups is gonna bring in a rofit no matter what is spent on them- and i made sure they were Very well raised and even picked the compatible stud (i did after all get a keeper from the 1st litter, and we kept bambi as no one was good enough for her!). her last litter was of 7 pups, no keepers from the 2nd or 3rd, so a tidy profit was made- but it all went straight back in to the dogs.
and kittys litter  i lost money yea, but that never even crosses my mind when i think of what i lost from that litter just because i was too stupid to know better. i guess that's the difference though, i'll Never forgive myself for that- ever, yet the stud owner- the one who Did know better- and ones like her never even batted an eyelid when i informed her that i lost two babies because she was a greedy, stupid b*%£h. in her mind if you Don't lose a pup or so then that's a bonus  (i'm glad she's moved so i don't know where she lives tbh)


----------



## lilythepink

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I sold five pups, and ended up between £3-£4k in the red. There is no money in breeding responsibly. I charged £600 per pup, but after all associated costs was very much out of pocket.


how many people end up so far red though? If every breeder made such a loss, nobody would breed cos they would be bankrupt.

If all litters cost so much, we wouldn't have puppy farms.

Also, people are talking about how much it costs to look after a litter from day one and include time . How can you include time for something that doesn't have a wage attached to it?Its like weighing up how much a housewife should be paid....but by whom and who decides the hourly rate?


----------



## BessieDog

lilythepink said:


> how many people end up so far red though? If every breeder made such a loss, nobody would breed cos they would be bankrupt.
> 
> If all litters cost so much, we wouldn't have puppy farms.
> 
> Also, people are talking about how much it costs to look after a litter from day one and include time . How can you include time for something that doesn't have a wage attached to it?Its like weighing up how much a housewife should be paid....but by whom and who decides the hourly rate?


My breeder took 9 weeks off work (she's a self employed landscape gardener). But as well as lost income she actually paid someone to do her work for her. Double whammy. So yes, you can lose a lot of money if you look after the pups properly, and on some cases it is quantifiable.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lilythepink said:


> how many people end up so far red though? If every breeder made such a loss, nobody would breed cos they would be bankrupt.
> 
> If all litters cost so much, we wouldn't have puppy farms.
> 
> Also, people are talking about how much it costs to look after a litter from day one and include time . How can you include time for something that doesn't have a wage attached to it?Its like weighing up how much a housewife should be paid....but by whom and who decides the hourly rate?


Not many, and I don't think that my one litter is the best to base figures on, as there were about £2k more than normal vets fees on top of everything else, but I still wouldn't have made a penny if Tau hadn't needed the c-section, and all 8 pups survived, I'd have just about broken even. But it shows with just losing two pups, and their associated vets fees, and a c-section, how the figures can soon dip very far into the red.

Also the fact I really can't see myself breeding more than one litter from a bitch, as I will keep back a bitch pup and that's the reason for me going ahead with a litter after all the other criteria have been met. But many others can't afford to breed in that way, and rely on some of the money they make from breeding to contribute towards ongoing costs related to their dogs and how they all live. It's where they rely on that money, and lose sight of the bigger picture, and start to cut corners that I have an issue. You can't say you're an ethical breeder, if you're allowing your dogs to cover 45-50 bitches per year, and breed litters yourself, and you say you will provide a life time back up for all those pups. How? It's just not possible for anyone to really do that, and it's simply become about the cash, and they're not bothered that their dogs have added another 300-350 puppies into an already burgeoning population of dogs that are hardly scarce.


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## Moobli

We have bred two litters of working sheepdogs in the past six years. I haven't totted up the cost to ourselves of doing so and we only sold our pups for £150 each (shepherds are on a tight budget!) but I am sure if we worked it all out we would have made a small profit. The primary reason for breeding was to get a pup for ourselves from trusted and proven lines. 

So much depends on why a litter is being bred - but I still stand by my view that there is nothing wrong in making a profit (or even a living) from breeding dogs, so long as they are kept well, and are excellent examples of their breed (temperament/health etc) and there are enough suitable homes out there to meet the demand.


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## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not many, and I don't think that my one litter is the best to base figures on, as there were about £2k more than normal vets fees on top of everything else, but I still wouldn't have made a penny if Tau hadn't needed the c-section, and all 8 pups survived, I'd have just about broken even. But it shows with just losing two pups, and their associated vets fees, and a c-section, how the figures can soon dip very far into the red.
> 
> Also the fact I really can't see myself breeding more than one litter from a bitch, as I will keep back a bitch pup and that's the reason for me going ahead with a litter after all the other criteria have been met. But many others can't afford to breed in that way, and rely on some of the money they make from breeding to contribute towards ongoing costs related to their dogs and how they all live. It's where they rely on that money, and lose sight of the bigger picture, and start to cut corners that I have an issue. * You can't say you're an ethical breeder, if you're allowing your dogs to cover 45-50 bitches per year, and breed litters yourself, and you say you will provide a life time back up for all those pups. How? It's just not possible for anyone to really do that, and it's simply become about the cash, and they're not bothered that their dogs have added another 300-350 puppies into an already burgeoning population of dogs that are hardly scarce*.


Exactly - I have no objection to anyone making a profit, as long as it isn't at the expense of the animals. We all have to live, after all, and breeders aren't charities! As long as the primary motive is to breed good healthy pups that are a credit to the breed, I can't see a problem.

It's people who breed dozens of puppies without giving a damn as regards health and temperament of pups or bitch, that want a bliddy good kicking! All they want is cash and they don't care how much pain and misery they cause to get it.


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## lilythepink

Meezey said:


> My breeder, breeds to keep pups, bitches have only 2 litters, parents are hip, elbow, heart, eye and DNA tested, and temperament tested, they then have stud fees, puppies are heart tested and eyes checked, vaccinated and DNA tested I paid much less than £1000, all dogs live in the house, she gave a puppy to someone who took on an older dog returned to her, she also kept a bitch herself 7 pups to sell, she did not make a penny!


and for every 1 breeder like this there are probably 1000 who are opposite. Its good that there are some out there who really care.Unfortunate that most people decide on which breed and then look for cheap.


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## Meezey

lilythepink said:


> and for every 1 breeder like this there are probably 1000 who are opposite. Its good that there are some out there who really care.Unfortunate that most people decide on which breed and then look for cheap.


True and that's what so frustrates me, there are some amazing breeder out there, but we continue to just always pick on the negative side of things, if people ie puppy buyers care more about the long term welfare of the bitch, of the puppies, and other puppies to come and the breed as a whole they wouldn't just look for the cheapest option, then other breeder would be forced to lift their game, we can all sit and bitch and wax lyrical about how bad breeder are, how the KC is responsible for the down fall of breeds but until puppy buyers start caring more about dogs rather than their own selfish wants breeders will get away with doing the bare minimum or in some cases nothing, people can't wait to get their puppies, it's all me me me me... I waited years for Cian, and I have waited over a year for the new puppy, if my boy isn't in this litter I will wait until their next litter..

For me, and I know this will piss a lot of people off ( nothing new there) I think there is something very odd thinking I want a puppy, deciding on a breed and within weeks coming home with your puppy, wrong on the side of a breeder and puppy owner if someone met me once and was willing to let me walk away with a puppy, I'd be gone without a puppy, or the " saving one" mentality annoys me even more, yeah great you have saved ONE from a shitty life what about the 1000000 of other that will have **** life because people insist on buy from the easiest cheapest fast place , it's not ignorance, it's not people being uninformed it's about people getting what they want when they want and the price they want, and sod the welfare issues... KC and show people and breeder take the brunt of being bad when there are plenty of others who take just a big as responsibility in the shitty end of the stick dogs get....... Yes I will defend show people and show breeders because I am fortunate enough to know some great breeders and show people ( not just in my breed) I also know some really bad breeders and I do what I can to stop people going to them, and I've had more that enough run ins with them, but I can't stand that this forum ( yes I now it's a Pet Forum) has a real anti show vibe..., as for the breeding side I think there seems to be a lot of hypocrisy.. I don't show, and if OH and I god forbid split up tomorrow Cian would never see the inside of a show ring again showing hold no interest for me, but I get so annoyed seeing people judge, people and things that they really know nothing about..... It's always but the judges shouldn't reward, but the show people shouldn't be allow, they don't care for their dogs, it's all about a ticket, show dogs don't get to live a proper life and get to be proper dogs, they live in horrible conditions blah blah blah, they forget, or chose ignore, to the research the KC does, they Charities they support, research in to cancer, the work show people do in rescue, the seriously good breeders out there, the show people who like everyone else utterly love and cherish their dogs, those who really couldn't care less how their dog does in the ring, it's a day out for them and their dog and they enjoy the time getting to socialise with other people and dogs, they forget that they also lie downstairs with sick dogs through the night, have puppy blues, and their heart breaks in to little tiny pieces when they lose a dogs, it's all very well to say yeah not all show breeders are bad some are good, but lets brush the good under the carpet so we can rip lumps out of the bad, there is such a inverted snobbery going on and its sad people can't see it.... We all hate bad breeder, we all hate animal cruelty, we all have the best welfare of dogs at heart just because people show doesn't mean they know more about dogs or breeding, if they are new to it, they are as blind to the pit falls of breeding or owning dogs. Neither do they ask to be held up as examples of what " good" looks like people outside chose to do that... Just frustrates me no end that the KC and show people are the scourge of the dogworld to some, the number of dogs being show fall every single year, there 1000 x more dogs not shown than shown, but some how the tiny 2% of the dog population becomes responsible for all of it....

Then again as I said don't know why I bother because it is the same old same old...:mad2:


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## lilythepink

I stand guilty as charged.I would not want to wait for a year for a puppy.

If I found a breeder whose pups I really liked and I wanted another of that breed I would go back to them.


I am glad Cian's breeders are so caring but I know several dog breeders who talk the talk and all that really matters to them is gossip and money.

I am glad for you you found somebody so ethical too.


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## Meezey

lilythepink said:


> I stand guilty as charged.I would not want to wait for a year for a puppy.
> 
> If I found a breeder whose pups I really liked and I wanted another of that breed I would go back to them.
> 
> I am glad Cian's breeders are so caring but I know several dog breeders who talk the talk and all that really matters to them is gossip and money.
> 
> I am glad for you you found somebody so ethical too.


Me too and rather than bad mouth those I know cut corners, I'd rather direct people to the good breeders, and what good people do for a breed, we are lucky to have a fair few in our breed who are ethical, and Cian's breeder just goes one step further, is still in contact with every puppy owner and that of the one litter her male sired.. She would be the only person I'd consider a Rottweiler from..


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## lilythepink

looking forwards to seeing you new puppy. Love rotties.


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## Old Shep

When you consider the lengths the good re homing charities go to, to ensure their reject dogs get a good home, and the "care" taken by most breeders, I think the problem is obvious.

How many breeders home visit prospective puppy buyers? How many ask for proof of income to establish that they can pay for all the dogs needs? How many times does a prospective puppy owner visit the breeder before purchase? Twice? Maybe, at a push three times?



Whenever I have bought a pup (and I consider the breeders I have bought from to be good), they have always taken me at face value. No one has ever checked. Yet re homing charities do this routinely. And I know of no re homing charity which would let a dog go without background checks and quite a few visits and interviews. 


I'm not necessarily advocating that breeders should do this, I'm just pointing out the care most rehousing centres take compared to the care most breeders take.

Please note the use of the word "most". It's intentional.


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## Meezey

Old Shep said:


> When you consider the lengths the good re homing charities go to, to ensure their reject dogs get a good home, and the "care" taken by most breeders, I think the problem is obvious.
> 
> How many breeders home visit prospective puppy buyers? How many ask for proof of income to establish that they can pay for all the dogs needs? How many times does a prospective puppy owner visit the breeder before purchase? Twice? Maybe, at a push three times?
> 
> Whenever I have bought a pup (and I consider the breeders I have bought from to be good), they have always taken me at face value. No one has ever checked. Yet re homing charities do this routinely. And I know of no re homing charity which would let a dog go without background checks and quite a few visits and interviews.
> 
> I'm not necessarily advocating that breeders should do this, I'm just pointing out the care most rehousing centres take compared to the care most breeders take.
> 
> Please note the use of the word "most". It's intentional.


I've know my breeder for about 10 years, she's pretty stringent about who gets a puppy, again a lot of good breeders have waiting list some people wait a few years, and are in contact during that time, I have spoken to a few people who wanted Rottweilers and have recommended my breeder to them, so for her that is a personal recommendation, she has always asked my opinion about them before speaking to them ( sorry guys). Again most breeders I know wouldn't let someone just come in and after one visit take a puppy, good breders tend to not even have to advertise their litters as homed are usually lined up before the mating takes place. Again if people don't like they have to pay more for a dog they are certainly not going to want to be home checked or their financial situation scrutinised, they will just go to Joe Bloggs with his £100 fluffy who is not registered the KC can't control that. Neither can breed clubs


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## Old Shep

Unless there is a change in the law, here will always b unscrupulous breeders.

I was just pointing out the discrepancy between checks done to rehome a dog and checks done to buy a brand new puppy.

http://bourbondog.wordpress.com/2014/04/09/dear-breeders-stop-just-stop/


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## Meezey

Old Shep said:


> Unless there is a change in the law, here will always b unscrupulous breeders.
> 
> I was just pointing out the discrepancy between checks done to rehome a dog and checks done to buy a brand new puppy.


 Totally agree with you, I hate bad breeders as much as the next sadly so much blame gets put at the door of the KC, when people are allowed to farm dogs with a license then can't see the government doing much, considering some believe the breeder being licensed by their local government is a sign they are a good breeder


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## Old Shep

Do you know if the KC are currently lobbying parliament to tighten up the law around dog breeding?


I think the KC do some very good stuff, especially around training with the KCGCS. They also provide excellent materials for use in education, teaching children to be safe around dogs.

But there is always more that could be done.


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## Blitz

I do not think many people would wait ages to get a puppy. I want one when I want one - not the next year. Most have just been there by chance when I am wanting one. I did take some time getting Candy but only because every litter I phoned up about was sold.
Eventually I hit on a breeder who had one puppy left. We chatted on the phone for ages, I asked him to keep her another two weeks as I could not get there and then I went and fetched her. Had a cup of tea, met all his gang and took the puppy away. And I have never regretted it.

Toffee was bred by a friend who was determined I would have a pup and I was determined I would not unless it ticked all my boxes. Went to look at the litter at 3 days old and picked out a large brown bitch who I decided would be large, long, lean and scruffy. Every other puppy was quite short in the leg and far smaller than I would have liked - my chosen pup grew to be inches taller than any others with long legs and a long lean body and a lovely scruffy look.


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## lilythepink

Old Shep said:


> When you consider the lengths the good re homing charities go to, to ensure their reject dogs get a good home, and the "care" taken by most breeders, I think the problem is obvious.
> 
> How many breeders home visit prospective puppy buyers? How many ask for proof of income to establish that they can pay for all the dogs needs? How many times does a prospective puppy owner visit the breeder before purchase? Twice? Maybe, at a push three times?
> 
> Whenever I have bought a pup (and I consider the breeders I have bought from to be good), they have always taken me at face value. No one has ever checked. Yet re homing charities do this routinely. And I know of no re homing charity which would let a dog go without background checks and quite a few visits and interviews.
> 
> I'm not necessarily advocating that breeders should do this, I'm just pointing out the care most rehousing centres take compared to the care most breeders take.
> 
> Please note the use of the word "most". It's intentional.


how many people would go down this route though? not because they are uncaring either and people are such liars. We have had this with horses, people tell you such rubbish, tell you how expert they are and how money is no object and then the horse comes to grief cos the human doesn't know front end from back end.


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## lilythepink

I asked my husband on New Years Eve 2011 if there was anything he would have liked for xmas that he didn't get. was thinking aftershave, dvd,,, he said yes, a Bullmastiff.

I searched on internet and emailed plenty not expecting any replies at all. Got several. Narrowed it down to 1 breeder. I gave him the Spanish Inquisition....he asked me nothing, he didn't need to I suppose cos of all the questions I asked him must have told him pretty much what I was all about.

He had 2 bitch pups left. He showed me pics. These were proper dog people, could tell looking at photos. I also said I would struggle getting down to him...400 miles and we were due heavy snow.He said no probs and would meet me en route.

We went on 2nd January and the snow started on the journey.Got to the meeting point. If I had had the slightest doubt.anything at all, I would have got in my car and come home empty handed. Puppy was gorgeous, big chunky calm girl. I would recommend this breeder to anybody wanting this breed. Never saw the parents, did get KC papers at the time.

This was very quick and even though many years ago we had a bully that my husband loved to bits, we don't know that much about the breed.so knew nothing at all about this breeder.

It wasn't a case of..right, have money in my pocket what can I buy...lets have a dog. 

My husband wanted a dog so that if I am here on my own, there is a large dog here with me too. I just like dogs, as long as it wasn't a furry one I would have been over the moon with any dog that came here.


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## Meezey

Blitz said:


> I do not think many people would wait ages to get a puppy.


Many people do though if they research and plan, the breed they want, the health test that breed should have, temperaments of the parents, and finding a good breeder, who might not have a litter at the time or a waiting list.

I don't breed and I never plan to but I certainly wouldn't let a pup go to someone who I'd known for only 10mins,I wouldn't consider someone who just let a pup go on first meeting a good breeder, to me that would be considered as a breeder who didn't care where and with whom their pup ended up!


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## lilythepink

and for my next trick......

My daughter got EBT last year...what a dog, ticks every box and more for me.The breeder loves his dogs, they are his life. He has another litter now with similar breeding to my daughters....so I am having one of the pups end of this month.

I know zilch about EBTs.apart from what I have seen with my daughter's dog, I know nothing of the breeder but my daughters pup now 10 months old has sold me the pup from similar breeding.

The pup will come with KC papers and pedigree.means nothing to me. Bullmastiff paperwork is still in a drawer from when she first arrived here.....I think.EBT will be just a pet, same as the rest of them.


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## Old Shep

lilythepink said:


> and for my next trick......
> 
> My daughter got EBT last year...what a dog, ticks every box and more for me.The breeder loves his dogs, they are his life. He has another litter now with similar breeding to my daughters....so I am having one of the pups end of this month.
> 
> I know zilch about EBTs.apart from what I have seen with my daughter's dog, I know nothing of the breeder but my daughters pup now 10 months old has sold me the pup from similar breeding.
> 
> The pup will come with KC papers and pedigree.means nothing to me. Bullmastiff paperwork is still in a drawer from when she first arrived here.....I think.EBT will be just a pet, same as the rest of them.


When you say you know nothing about the breed, do you really mean that? You don't know hat diseases they are prone to? What their temperament is like? What their longevity is like? How much exercise they need?

And when you say you know nothing about the breeder,mod you really mean that? You don't know what the environment is like for the dam and the pups? You don't know what she does by way of exposing the pups to stimulus at the right times? You don't know if the house is a tip?


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## havoc

> How many breeders home visit prospective puppy buyers? How many ask for proof of income to establish that they can pay for all the dogs needs? How many times does a prospective puppy owner visit the breeder before purchase? Twice? Maybe, at a push three times?


I don't breed dogs, I do breed cats so I know a bit about vetting prospective buyers. Breeders may not overtly question buyers about income etc, or have buyers fill in an application form. There are however ways of checking things. That first visit will at least mean I have names and an address, there's a lot can be found out once you have that info. I can for example guarantee that none of my kitten buyers have County Court judgements against them for any debt.


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## Blitz

Meezey said:


> Many people do though if they research and plan, the breed they want, the health test that breed should have, temperaments of the parents, and finding a good breeder, who might not have a litter at the time or a waiting list.
> 
> I don't breed and I never plan to but I certainly wouldn't let a pup go to someone who I'd known for only 10mins,I wouldn't consider someone who just let a pup go on first meeting a good breeder, to me that would be considered as a breeder who didn't care where and with whom their pup ended up!


Some people do all that - the majority do not. I hope that most research the breed they want up to a point but it does not take years to do like I have seen on here - an evening on the internet and a few phone calls to breeders will give you a very good idea.
If someone wants to wait months or years then that is completely up to them but equally if someone wants to get a puppy within a short time of deciding to get a certain breed that is up to them too.


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## Meezey

Blitz said:


> Some people do all that - the majority do not. I hope that most research the breed they want up to a point but it does not take years to do like I have seen on here - an evening on the internet and a few phone calls to breeders will give you a very good idea.
> If someone wants to wait months or years then that is completely up to them but equally if someone wants to get a puppy within a short time of deciding to get a certain breed that is up to them too.


Which again proves my point. Not much the KC can do when puppy buyers are all about what's right for them not what's right for dogs long term well being!


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## Old Shep

But public opinion can be changed! It is possible to change the publics views about buying pups and making buying from disreputable sources an ant social thing to do.

I am old enough to remember when drink driving was the norm. people used to think it was, at worst, a bit naughty, but mostly just something everyone did now and again. 
Then there was a government backed nationwide campaign to make it totally socially unacceptable to drink and drive. People now don't amuse each other round the dinner table with amusing tales of driving home from parties drunk - you would be a social pariah if you did that now.


In the same way, it would be possible to first of all educate the general public about the horrors of puppy farming then explaining the correct way to go about purchasing a puppy.

Don't get me wrong, there are still dangerous morons who drink and drive, but they are now in the minority. Similarly, if this went forward, there would still be people who bought irresponsibly. But they would be in the minority.

Just an idea.


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## rona

Meezey said:


> Many people do though if they research and plan, the breed they want, the health test that breed should have, temperaments of the parents, and finding a good breeder, who might not have a litter at the time or a waiting list.
> 
> I don't breed and I never plan to but I certainly wouldn't let a pup go to someone who I'd known for only 10mins,I wouldn't consider someone who just let a pup go on first meeting a good breeder, to me that would be considered as a breeder who didn't care where and with whom their pup ended up!


I'm like you 
I've got a very popular breed but it took me a year to find my second dog. Went to working tests looked into breeders and even watched how those breeders interacted with their dogs. 
OH took 4 years with his minor breed


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## Old Shep

Took me 2 years to get my Brittany.

First I had to establish it was really the breed I wanted. So after lots on online research, I went along to some shown with Brittany's and took a trip to discover dogs to speak with other owners.

I them got in touch with the club, joined it, and made contact with a few breeders. One very kindly let me borrow her dog, once a week and take him to gundog training.

Then I identified the breeder I thought would best suit me and place my order 



...and after all that, he has turned out to be lead reactive!! The only bugger like that I have ever owned!

:mad2:


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## dandogman

Moobli said:


> We have bred two litters of working sheepdogs in the past six years. I haven't totted up the cost to ourselves of doing so and we only sold our pups for £150 each (shepherds are on a tight budget!) but I am sure if we worked it all out we would have made a small profit. The primary reason for breeding was to get a pup for ourselves from trusted and proven lines.
> 
> So much depends on why a litter is being bred - *but I still stand by my view that there is nothing wrong in making a profit (or even a living) from breeding dogs, so long as they are kept well, and are excellent examples of their breed (temperament/health etc) and there are enough suitable homes out there to meet the demand*.


This is exactly my view also.


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## Rafa

dandogman said:


> This is exactly my view also.


I don't think there's anything wrong if, after paying for everything the Mum and pups could possibly need, and taking the best possible care of them, you should happen to make a profit.

However, I believe that if profit is really your main motivation for breeding, that's questionable.


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## lilythepink

Old Shep said:


> When you say you know nothing about the breed, do you really mean that? You don't know hat diseases they are prone to? What their temperament is like? What their longevity is like? How much exercise they need?
> 
> And when you say you know nothing about the breeder,mod you really mean that? You don't know what the environment is like for the dam and the pups? You don't know what she does by way of exposing the pups to stimulus at the right times? You don't know if the house is a tip?


My daughters dog is fantastic. I like smooth coated, medium sized dogs with tons of personality. She got her pup at 8 weeks, I see the dog every day when my daughter calls. I just love everything about this dog. Her dog is white, I know they are prone to skin problems.

Daughters dog has papers etc, breeder shows and breeds and his house where the dogs are is dog minded and not very comfortable for people shall we say....daughter saw it, not me so taking what she said. Not a tip, very clean downstairs where the dogs are with obvious signs of damage done by dogs.

The breeder posts on FB where he has walked his dogs. They are all fit and well toned, several of them together....some recent pics of them paddling in the sea and running on the beach off lead with the breeders kids.

The pup is a happy pup, fitted in with my lot here. I spoke to the breeder when my daughter was searching for a puppy last year. I hope the pup we get will do as well.


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## lilythepink

havoc said:


> I don't breed dogs, I do breed cats so I know a bit about vetting prospective buyers. Breeders may not overtly question buyers about income etc, or have buyers fill in an application form. There are however ways of checking things. That first visit will at least mean I have names and an address, there's a lot can be found out once you have that info. I can for example guarantee that none of my kitten buyers have County Court judgements against them for any debt.


I didn't know you could check up on somebody for a debt etc.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Bad mouth someone? Surely posting that someone has not even lived up to their own criteria, isn't bad mouthing, it's simply posting what is *true*. If people can't be truthful themselves about what they are doing, is it wrong for someone else to say, excuse me, actually, you said you support this sort of breeding but actually this is what you do. Stopping people who lie and try to hide poor breeding practices is just as important to promoting good breeding practices, as simply clapping the backs of those who do enough, or more than enough.


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## Blitz

Meezey said:


> Which again proves my point. Not much the KC can do when puppy buyers are all about what's right for them not what's right for dogs long term well being!


You do what you think is right for the dogs long term well being and let other people do what they think is right for the dogs long term well being. It is really none of your business where people buy their dogs from or how long they take to find them. So long as the dogs are well cared for does it really matter. And every puppy buyer does what is right for them - some choose to wait for years, others get one tomorrow.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Bad mouth someone? Surely posting that someone has not even lived up to their own criteria, isn't bad mouthing, it's simply posting what is *true*. If people can't be truthful themselves about what they are doing, is it wrong for someone else to say, excuse me, actually, you said you support this sort of breeding but actually this is what you do. Stopping people who lie and try to hide poor breeding practices is just as important to promoting good breeding practices, as simply clapping the backs of those who do enough, or more than enough.


I think I missed something but you do come across as VERY sanctimonious over breeding. Just because you had a bad experience with a litter you expect that everyone else will do. Some people actually enjoy breeding and do not find it dreadfully stressful and do it either for pure enjoyment or for money. The litters I have bred have been for enjoyment. My sheltie was a disaster with all her litters so if it had been for money I would have been unlucky 

I am not sure why it cannot be accepted that there is more than one way to successfully buy a nice puppy and there is more than one reason for breeding.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Blitz said:


> I think I missed something but you do come across as VERY sanctimonious over breeding. Just because you had a bad experience with a litter you expect that everyone else will do. Some people actually enjoy breeding and do not find it dreadfully stressful and do it either for pure enjoyment or for money. The litters I have bred have been for enjoyment. My sheltie was a disaster with all her litters so if it had been for money I would have been unlucky
> 
> I am not sure why it cannot be accepted that there is more than one way to successfully buy a nice puppy and there is more than one reason for breeding.


Eh? Me having a bad experience with one litter, has nothing to do with people who are supposedly those to look up to, cutting corners, ignoring health tests. I really couldn't give a [email protected] what people think about me, or my dogs, I may never ever breed again at this rate, what pee's me off eternally, is the willingness of people to sweep things under the carpet, because it looks bad, or hurts feelings. So what, I don't give a [email protected] if someone is willing to make thousands of pounds per year, and lie about what they do.


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## Meezey

Deleted coz can not be bothered wasting my breath.


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## Meezey

Blitz said:


> You do what you think is right for the dogs long term well being and let other people do what they think is right for the dogs long term well being. It is really none of your business where people buy their dogs from or how long they take to find them. So long as the dogs are well cared for does it really matter. And every puppy buyer does what is right for them - some choose to wait for years, others get one tomorrow.
> 
> I think I missed something but you do come across as VERY sanctimonious over breeding. Just because you had a bad experience with a litter you expect that everyone else will do. Some people actually enjoy breeding and do not find it dreadfully stressful and do it either for pure enjoyment or for money. The litters I have bred have been for enjoyment. My sheltie was a disaster with all her litters so if it had been for money I would have been unlucky
> 
> I am not sure why it cannot be accepted that there is more than one way to successfully buy a nice puppy and there is more than one reason for breeding.


 Still for me wouldn't buy from or recommend someone who would be willing to let a pup go first meeting with no clue where puppy is going or to what bit Russian Roulette for me.


----------



## shadowmare

Old Shep said:


> When you consider the lengths the good re homing charities go to, to ensure their reject dogs get a good home, and the "care" taken by most breeders, I think the problem is obvious.
> 
> How many breeders home visit prospective puppy buyers? How many ask for proof of income to establish that they can pay for all the dogs needs? How many times does a prospective puppy owner visit the breeder before purchase? Twice? Maybe, at a push three times?


I see your point, but at the same time, how many people who could be great new owners for a rescue are constantly rejected because of stupid list of points that is meant to describe a good home? 
Just because someone is rich and is able to show the breeder a big clean house in the country side with a massive fenced in garden, visits the puppies 5 times and boasts about having plenty of time because they work from home, does not mean that they will be great owners. The same person could get the puppy and then put him in the cage in their basement next to the other breeding bitches.
Up until the day I went to pick up Axel my only ways of contacting and speaking to the breeder were emails and one skype chat. The day I flew to germany i knew that the meeting was arranged on the basis that the breeder might decide that i am not suitable, or i might decide that this is not the breeder and not the pup i want. I took the risk by taking that flight. And she took the risk by giving away her favourite puppy to a girl who contacted her only 4 weeks before and she got to speak to her and question her for 24 hours in total. And i am happy that my breeder didn't get scared to hand over the pup that she waited for 5 years to a complete newbie in the breed, who lives in a city flat and has a full time job, but works for a minimum wage.


----------



## Darth

I'm not sure meeting puppy buyers 10 times or 2 times makes a lot of difference.

How can you tell if someone is telling you what they know you want to hear if you meet them 10 times or 2?

Even if they have a CC does that make them a bad pet owner? They could have just gone through a bad patch 3 years ago and are now sorted and all ok.

I always check phone numbers both mobile and land line, but that doesn't mean they don't have a PAYG they use for puppy sales.

I always ask about work commitments, a couple have said they use pet sitters or work part time, but being honest, how can I be sure? Even the ones who say they don't work, how can I check that's the truth? They only need to keep a pretence up for a few months. Besides, the way I see it, there's worse cruelty that can occur to a puppy than being left for a few hours.

There's lots of sanctimonious people on this forum who say they would never do this or never do that but how do we know they're telling the truth about themselves? Let's face it.....they're never going to admit they're not health testing, making a living from puppies or bordering on being a puppy farmer.

It depends how you total up your expenses as to whether you make a profit from breeding. 
If you take into consideration absolutely every penny over every year you have your bitch, including petrol to the vets and the worming tablets you buy every 6 months for x amount of years you probably wouldn't see a penny, and even be out of pocket.
On the other hand if you only take into consideration the mating fees and cost of that one litter you could consider you've made some cash, irrelevant of how much.


----------



## Old Shep

I'm finding this thread rather depressing. I'm actually quite surprised at some peoples attitude to buying puppies.


I genuinely thought most keen dog people would research their chosen breed and breeder with some rigour.


When I suggested some checks breeders may do, of course these would not stop unsuitable owners! Nothing would do that completely. They are suggestions to minimise the risk of dogs ending up in the wrong hands. 
As for the financial situation of new owners, I'm not at all saying that someone on benefits would make a worse owner than someone with a lavish income! But it is clearly irresponsible to place a breed prone to expensive medical issues into a home where the owners cannot afford vet care. At the very least, breeders should be checking that the new owners at least will be purchasing insurance or knows how to access cheaper vet treatment from the likes of the PDSA.

If we simply wring our hands and say "oh dear! There's nothing can be done" nothing WILL be done and nothing will change. A start has to be made somewhere.


----------



## gskinner123

Old Shep said:


> I genuinely thought most keen dog people would research their chosen breed and breeder with some rigour.
> But it is clearly irresponsible to place a breed prone to expensive medical issues into a home where the owners cannot afford vet care


If I had researched buying a puppy rigorously I'd be avoiding breeds that are prone to (expensive) medical issues. Money issues aside, why would I want to buy a dog in the knowledge that it had a much higher chance of suffering? Having insurance in place doesn't make it 'okay'.


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## Old Shep

You completely missed my point.

It was clear from some posts on here that some people didn't actually do this. They bought without doing, what I would regard as, even basic research.

And no one should be buying any puppy from either a line or a breed prone to medical issues.

....and we open up a whole new can of worms!


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## Darth

How can you ensure an owner is going to have insurance?

Anyone can answer yes to that one.....then just not do it. How's a breeder going to know?

Maybe when a puppy buyer comes to visit they should be asked to bring a couple of wage slips and take a lie detecter test!

Some people have the most unrealistic ideas on here and that's for sure.


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## dexter

sometimes its not always possible to visit a new potential puppy buyers house , however the internet is a wonderful thing


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## Old Shep

Darth said:


> How can you ensure an owner is going to have insurance?
> 
> Anyone can answer yes to that one.....then just not do it. How's a breeder going to know?
> 
> Maybe when a puppy buyer comes to visit they should be asked to bring a couple of wage slips and take a lie detecter test!
> 
> Some people have the most unrealistic ideas on here and that's for sure.


:mad2:

So let's do nothing at all!!?

It'd be a simple matter to ask a prospective puppy owner to bring a copy of their insurance e before you hand over the pup!!

Honest to god! There are such defeatist attitudes here!

You cannot sit around complaining about bad breeders and misplaced puppies yet not even attempt to try to rectify things, or think about how you might help change things.

I go back to my drink driving analogy: did the change in legislation completely stop drink driving No. Did it reduce the incidence of drink driving? Hell yeah!!

Murder is both against the law, and socially unacceptable, yet some people still do it. That is not a reason to abandon all legislation relating to murder!!!


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

Blitz said:


> You do what you think is right for the dogs long term well being and let other people do what they think is right for the dogs long term well being. It is really none of your business where people buy their dogs from or how long they take to find them. So long as the dogs are well cared for does it really matter. And every puppy buyer does what is right for them - some choose to wait for years, others get one tomorrow.
> 
> _I think I missed something but you do come across as VERY sanctimonious over breeding._ Just because you had a bad experience with a litter you expect that everyone else will do. Some people actually enjoy breeding and do not find it dreadfully stressful and do it either for pure enjoyment or for money. The litters I have bred have been for enjoyment. My sheltie was a disaster with all her litters so if it had been for money I would have been unlucky
> 
> I am not sure why it cannot be accepted that there is more than one way to successfully buy a nice puppy and there is more than one reason for breeding.


How peculiar!

To me SL simply comes over as being highly ethical.

Nor have I seen any posts of hers where it seems she 'expects' people to have bad experiences. She simply points out what *can* happen. Surely that must be helpful to new and potential breeders 

If all breeders were half as ethical and careful as SLEEPING LION, then frankly I think we would have far fewer problems. I find it absurd that she's being criticised for having high moral standards!


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## Old Shep

Little anecdote.

A woman who lives nearby had a nondescript, and bady behaved non registered lab. She bought it from the local stables when the bitch had a sort-of-planned litter. 

The woman had great difficulty controlling this dog. She took it to training once and said it didn't help. She constantly asked my advice and failed to follow it (go back to training).

Then one day she told me she was thinking of breeding a litter from her as someone said it'd calm her down. She said there was a dog locally who's owner said he didn't mind if she used him. I said it was an awful idea and pointed out all the pitfalls. I suggested she discuss it with her vet as well. She did. The vet said it was a terrible idea too. She then phoned the trainer at the class she had gone to once. She also said it was a terrible idea.

The dog was duly mated. No checks of any kind whatsoever.

I'm due time 4 pups arrived and when they were weaned, she gave 2 to her grandchildren, as she had planned, and advertised the remaining 2 for £400 each as she had been told that was what a yellow lab cost.

Nothing happened for a few weeks, then, when the pups were about 12 weeks, she managed to sell both for a reduced sum.

Two weeks later, one was returned.

A week later one of her grandchildren said she didn't want the dog anymore and that was also returned.

She now had a mature bitch and two puppies she couldn't sell. She hadn't trained the bitch and didn't train the pups either. They shat and peed all over the house. They barked and threw themselves at the window whenever anyone called at the door. They escaped from the house at regular intervals and chased the sheep and cattle. They ran on the main road almost causing accidents.

This remained the case for a couple of years till someone took one of the young dogs off her and she was left with the bitch and one offspring which she still has.


Despite all the advice given to her, this woman chose to believe that breeding from her hyper lab would give her grandchildren a nice present, calm the bitch down and leave her quids in.

It did none of theses things.

Her bitch remains anti social, wild and rude and the pup is little better.

Just thought I'd share


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## BessieDog

Old Shep said:


> :mad2:
> 
> So let's do nothing at all!!?
> 
> It'd be a simple matter to ask a prospective puppy owner to bring a copy of their insurance e before you hand over the pup!!
> 
> Honest to god! There are such defeatist attitudes here!
> 
> You cannot sit around complaining about bad breeders and misplaced puppies yet not even attempt to try to rectify things, or think about how you might help change things.
> 
> I go back to my drink driving analogy: did the change in legislation completely stop drink driving No. Did it reduce the incidence of drink driving? Hell yeah!!
> 
> Murder is both against the law, and socially unacceptable, yet some people still do it. That is not a reason to abandon all legislation relating to murder!!!


If pups are KC registered the new owner gets 4 weeks free insurance.

I don't think you can get insurance for something you haven't got yet - and even so there's a 14 day cooling off period, so these folks you're so mistrustful of could cancel the insurance after showing you the paperwork.

Some people are liars. The majority of folks are not.


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## Darth

So let's do nothing at all!!?


Who said do nothing?

I check my puppy buyers out by name, address and telephone numbers both land line and mobile. It's amazing what information this can give.

I don't deem it necessary to ask for insurance numbers, wage slips, benefit books or anything else for that matter.


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## lilythepink

this is what the breeder of our bullmastiff did, google earth.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> How peculiar!
> 
> To me SL simply comes over as being highly ethical.
> 
> Nor have I seen any posts of hers where it seems she 'expects' people to have bad experiences. She simply points out what *can* happen. Surely that must be helpful to new and potential breeders
> 
> If all breeders were half as ethical and careful as SLEEPING LION, then frankly I think we would have far fewer problems. I find it absurd that she's being criticised for having high moral standards!


Thanks for the kind words, I have fig all idea why people dislike honesty, but there you go. Maybe I should make things up and move on a few dogs, then I might have a better reputation. Or just use the ignore function a couple more times........


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

Old Shep said:


> And no one should be buying any puppy from either a line or a breed prone to medical issues.
> 
> ....and we open up a whole new can of worms!


Well, amen to that. Indeed, "amen squared!"

It is intelligent, prudent advice that everyone should follow.

The only drawback with it is...speaking strictly for myself...when you ARE smitten with a health plagued breed, you can tell your head that buying one is a majorly moronic idea, it's your soul which won't have any of this rational stuff.

I love dogs. All dogs. I prefer larger ones to smaller ones, working breeds over toy breeds....but what I REALLY love is Bernese Mountain Dogs. I foolishly fell in love with them when I was 4 and, even more foolishly, never fell out of love.

It's hard to name a breed more riddled with health problems than a Berner. Half of them are dead when barely middle aged. 2 of mine were. And not only was I grieving, I was flipping incandescent with rage. Directed at the "experienced expert breeders" who with their arrogance and stupidity let the breed come to this with their "i breed to improve the breed" vapid ethos, at my vets who couldn't heal like Jesus, at myself for being stupid enough to choose a breed which I KNEW would break my heart too soon.

And yet....

.....despite all this, and knowing what I know, there is never going to be another breed who will get under my skin like this one. I look at a Bernese and my soul starts to smile. There is no other way to describe it.

My Berners added a dimension, an additional joy to my life, that even if I was a poet I couldn't adequately convey. If I lived a 1000 years I couldn't repay the happiness they brought me. They made all my colours brighter. Despite the fact that any person with an ounce of sense wouldn't have bought one in the first place.

I will love any other dog from any other breed very deeply. And I WILL buy a puppy from a different breed. It is a FAR more sensible choice. But if someone could place a call to my soul who still screams and stamps its feet like a trucculant toddler "no, buy a Bernese, want a BERNESE!!!!!" that would be swell.....

But no, people shouldn't buy health plagued breeds. Unless they fancy joining me into the realm of the deeply idotic. Whose soul smiles when they see one of those doomed dogs.

I swear coming off heroin must be easier. Bound to be. Ack.


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## Colette

The way I see it, good breeders and rescues both try to ensure only the right people get their dogs / pups. Just because they don't all do it the same way doesn't mean one is right and the other wrong.

The big name rescues have strict criteria. You have to tick all the right boxes, provide suitable proof, etc. Of course some great homes are refused a dog as a result, but for a busy rescue this may be the best option in terms of efficacy and efficiency.

Good breeders tend to be far more informal in their approach, they have time to be, given how few pups they home and how few people they need to check out. They might not insist on box ticking or evidence, but instead take the time to get to know potential puppy buyers. They will get a good idea of what they're like, what knowledge they have, how they plan to keep the dog etc. As has been mentioned they are also capable of getting a lot of info once they have a full name and address. 

Neither way is perfect or risk free. Sure, some breeders will inadvertently sell pups to rubbish homes, but then plenty of rescue dogs get returned despite the strict criteria and checks.

I've known several people who would have no trouble with the formal process used by many rescues. People who don't work, have nice homes, plenty of money in the bank, etc. Yet wouldn't think twice about using physical punishment, leaving a dog alone for long hours, or having them returned or put to sleep when the going gets tough.

I don't think its fair to suggest that just because breeders don't request 100 different bits of paperwork and a crb check they're doing nothing.


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## Old Shep

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that no breeders do adequate checks, but I do think that good breeders are in a minority.

I don't know this for a fact, but it seems to me that the vast majority of dogs are acquired from "the man up the road" or an advert in the post office. This is not always a recipie for disaster, but surely is more risky for both dog and new owner.


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## Rafa

I honestly believe that there are those breeders who care passionately about the health of their pups and also about where they go and what their future is. These are people who value dogs highly, recognise that they have feelings and want the very best for them.

Unfortunately, there are others who don't see dogs as high value and think that as long as they get fed, they're okay.

I don't believe that will ever change.

There are always going to be those who will produce pups from their pet bitch, mated to some random dog whose only virtue is that he's the same breed. They'll sell those pups for what they can get and have little interest in their future.

It's very sad and depressing, but it's life ..... it's the way it is, just Human nature unfortunately, just as there are those who will abuse animals and those who will devote their lives to rescuing them.

It's the World we live in.

I can walk Rosie up a particular back alley close to where we live anytime from 8 in the morning until 6 at night and there are several backyards where I know dogs will be, running to the gate to bark.

Those dogs clearly spend all day in yards and, on one occasion, when I walked her at 11 at night, those same dogs were there.

Some people just don't seem to recognise that dogs feel lonely, confused, bored and even get depressed. To some, a dog is just something they get, sometimes on impulse or even because it's just what they've always done, but it has little real value.


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## MerlinsMum

Sweety said:


> Unfortunately, there are others who don't see dogs as high value and think that as long as they get fed, they're okay.


And I think there are a lot more of that kind, actively breeding dogs, than there has been in the past. Not just dogs, either.


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## Badwolfe

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Gawd I forgot about paying to microchip each pup and having them vet checked, I think that vets bill was another £270 or there abouts, but that did include Zasa's first vaccinations, and Aria's, who I sadly had to have pts not long afterwards.


Hence why I'm a KC approved Microchipper


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## kodakkuki

Badwolfe said:


> Hence why I'm a KC approved Microchipper


Kc approved? I hadn't known you had to be... Do you or is it just a little extra? I'm a qualified chipper with a registration number etc, but never heard of being kc approved...


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## Badwolfe

Yep you have to have been on an approved course and provide info to the KC before you can make an implanters account on Petlog


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## kodakkuki

Badwolfe said:


> Yep you have to have been on an approved course and provide info to the KC before you can make an implanters account on Petlog


I have already got a pet log Id ya see, never thought I had to do anything with the kc though- the woman who did the course registered me.


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## Badwolfe

kodakkuki said:


> I have already got a pet log Id ya see, never thought I had to do anything with the kc though- the woman who did the course registered me.


Yes Koda Petlog is owned by the KC. The woman would have given them your implanter ID so that you could have an implanter account. Anyone can create a normal account but only trained implanters can have an implanter code


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## kodakkuki

Badwolfe said:


> Yes Koda Petlog is owned by the KC. The woman would have given them your implanter ID so that you could have an implanter account. Anyone can create a normal account but only trained implanters can have an implanter code


that was worded badly- i'd assumed that petlog was different Enough so you contacted petlog, rather than simply the kc. which i'm still assuming is the case.


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## Badwolfe

kodakkuki said:


> that was worded badly- i'd assumed that petlog was different Enough so you contacted petlog, rather than simply the kc. which i'm still assuming is the case.


Yes petlog is the KC. When you pass the course you get an implanter code as you know. It is this code that tells the KC you have been properly trained and allows you to register chip details on their Petlog site


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## Lazhar

As founder of Breeding Business, a platform for dog breeders, I genuinely think dog breeding is a business that can be executed like any other business: responsibly or disgustingly.

I even wrote a little article ironically called and the only breeders that breed graciously, without be part of the trade/business, are the ones who GIVE their dogs for free.

As soon as the SELLER asks for a payment against anything, it is a business, and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT as I explained on


----------



## MerlinsMum

Badwolfe said:


> Yes petlog is the KC. When you pass the course you get an implanter code as you know. It is this code that tells the KC you have been properly trained and allows you to register chip details on their Petlog site


Very important now, as only certain qualified microchippers will be able to chip dogs from now on, due to the new laws coming in next year.

As a qualified chipper I get regular notices of chipped animals (dogs AND cats) missing within a 30 mile radius of where I live, meaning if I scanned an animal brought to me for chipping (perhaps stolen), or a stray or even dead dog or cat, and its chip number matched, I would be able to alert the database.

I have yet to be alerted to missing chipped rabbits & ferrets in my area, but KC or not, they would also be included.


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## newfiesmum

Lazhar said:


> As founder of Breeding Business, a platform for dog breeders, I genuinely think dog breeding is a business that can be executed like any other business: responsibly or disgustingly.
> 
> I even wrote a little article ironically called and the only breeders that breed graciously, without be part of the trade/business, are the ones who GIVE their dogs for free.
> 
> As soon as the SELLER asks for a payment against anything, it is a business, and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT as I explained on


Nobody with half a brain cell gives an animal away for free. The time it becomes a business is when it makes a profit, not when money is exchanged. A good breeder spends most of that money on health tests, vets bills, food etc.


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## havoc

> As soon as the SELLER asks for a payment against anything, it is a business


Wrong, just plain wrong. It's not that simple. You can run a business without making any profit and you can sell things without running a business. It's the aim in business to make profit, plenty don't. If your aim is to make profit and you breed purely to do so then you are trading. If your primary aim is not to make money and you don't make profit then you aren't trading. Most breeders don't really add up their expenses, if they did they'd be horrified. How much of your utility bills are down to breeding? How much more washing powder and cleaning materials? Travel costs to shows, delivering puppies, going to the vet? There's stationery costs and other equipment, every feeding bowl, mop and bucket, puppy pen, blanket. Consumables such as food are a big bill, expenses between litters would count if you were doing business accounts.

Sometimes it's comforting for us to think we didn't lose on a litter, even made a little but we do it by ignoring most of our expenses.

And we haven't even considered drawing an income!

This is the summary from HMRC's own guidelines on breeding


> Whether the activities amount to the carrying on of a trade profession or vocation so that the profits are assessable under Cases I or II of Schedule D or is merely a hobby, *is a question that can only be determined on consideration of the relevant facts in individual cases*.


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## lovemybabies

There is no money .. Unless it us a puppymill with 100 female dogs of poor quality and nothing paid towards care and feed that you wouldnt even feed roaches


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## Lazhar

Wrong, most dog breeder make no profit *because of their poor entrepreneurial skills*. Without neglecting your dogs, you can absolutely make money while breeding dogs. If you can't and should not control expenses, *you can absolutely increase income* (selling at a higher price.)

But to do so, you have to be a skilled salesperson.


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## Darth

Lazhar said:


> Wrong, most dog breeder make no profit *because of their poor entrepreneurial skills*. Without neglecting your dogs, you can absolutely make money while breeding dogs. If you can't and should not control expenses, *you can absolutely increase income* (selling at a higher price.)
> 
> But to do so, you have to be a skilled salesperson.


If you take into consideration all the costs of keeping your bitches and pups, mating fees, health tests, vet visits etc over 12 months, there is very little profit to be made from breeding. All you get is some of your costs back in a lump sum, which on the surface appears like profit.

Puppy buyers have a ceiling price they'll pay for a pup of their chosen breed so even with good "sales patter" you're not going to get that price without having to run on pups for longer than your cheaper counterparts....that in itself costing you more out of your "profit".


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## Lazhar

Darth said:


> Puppy buyers have a ceiling price they'll pay for a pup of their chosen breed so even with good "sales patter" you're not going to get that price without having to run on pups for longer than your cheaper counterparts....that in itself costing you more out of your "profit".


Well, this is the exact same speech a lot of "activities and businesses" said once upon a time until they realised that yes, puppy buyers they are targeting have a ceiling price, but if you search in the right place, you will find people ready to pay more.

I am in one very special business, too. The ticket brokerage. People are not ready to pay more than the face value or a slightly inflated price, well, unless you search where the right high-spending customers are. Then, you can.

Again, like I said in my original post, most breeders are not business-savvy and there is nothing wrong with that. Just, it's not because you can't do it that nobody else can. There is nothing that prevent one to be a great breeder and a great entrepreneur.


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## Meezey

Why does puppy farmer spring to mind when people talk about dogs and breeding in terms of businesses, making money, right market to get more money. They ain't cars or commodities....


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## SingingWhippet

Lazhar said:


> Well, this is the exact same speech a lot of "activities and businesses" said once upon a time until they realised that yes, puppy buyers they are targeting have a ceiling price, but if you search in the right place, you will find people ready to pay more.


Puppies are very different from TVs or other inanimate objects, the buyer willing to pay the most is not necessarily the one who can provide the best home.

I've had three puppies from the same breeder over several years. In that time the price of her puppies increased slightly in line with the prices of the breed as a whole. Despite this she only asked me to pay the same price as the original puppy for the two subsequent ones. You'd probably consider this terrible business sense but for her (and rightly so) the desire for her puppies to go to the best homes she could fine far outweighed any desire (if there ever was one, which I highly doubt) to get more money.

There's a reason why decent, ethical breeders aren't the ones selling their puppies at hugely inflated prices and it's not because they have bad business sense......


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## Lazhar

Because when a breeder sells his puppies, he is trading living animals against money. Not wanting to make a profit is, to me, the same as trying to lose as little as possible and this is what all breeders do: they try to have a little loss as possible. Isn't that business? If they had that entrepreneurial skills, they would lose so little that they would actually generate a profit.

Doesn't mean you need to decrease expenses, just means you should and you can increase the sums of money coming in.

PS: there are forever homes that will pay for an inflated price, and they are not necessarily bad homes.


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## lovemybabies

lazhar .. so far... your post are only about setting up websites for breeder to get the best "sales solutions" to marketing their goods.... selling puppies for profit. and about how to make money.

Given the nature of this forum.... this is a place for pet owners, show exhibitors and handlers..... not a mass market breeding. IMO it sounds like you are trying to "politely" encourage people to think there is a profit. Sorry....

Mods... how can a block a person?


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## SingingWhippet

Lazhar said:


> PS: there are forever homes that will pay for an inflated price, and they are not necessarily bad homes.


Equally they are not necessarily the best homes either. I don't see pricing out potentially excellent homes just to rake in some extra money as any better than keeping the price the same and cutting corners elsewhere. Good breeders _want_ people to be able to afford their dogs, if they all started pricing their puppies high enough to rake in the profit they'd be pushing potential buyers towards puppy farms/BYBs/dealers and the dog world as a whole would suffer for it.

Have you considered that most decent breeders aren't actually _interested_ in making a profit? Or even losing as little as possible? Because for them it is not a business, it's a labour of love to produce healthy, happy, well rounded puppies and place them in the best homes possible.


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## SingingWhippet

lovemybabies said:


> Mods... how can a block a person?


Click on their name and a box will pop up, just click on 'ignore'.


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## Meezey

Breeding dogs of commercial gain is a puppy farm you can dress it up with bells and whistles and sugar coat it all you want. Most people unless they treat it as a business ( puppy farmer back yard breeders) don't breed with making money their end goal nor are they or should they be entrepreneurial about it. If a breeder tried to pitch me a puppy they would be told where to stick their sales patter....


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## 8tansox

I'd like to bet that the breeder I'm getting my puppy from doesn't make a profit, yet the puppies will be KC registered, from FULLY health tested parents, vaccinated, wormed etc. I would think they're making a loss - again!


----------



## Tanya1989

Make a profit? Best sales opportunities? I'm doing something wrong then. I "market" my "stock" at shows, I'd also market them in the working field, but I am truly rubbish at any form of working training so I don't do it. As for making a profit, wouldn't that be nice! I could sell all of these puppies at the top end of the 'market price' (instead of keeping any) and still be at a loss..... but you know what, I couldn't care less. I've got a litter where 4 out of the 5 have show ring potential. They are all healthy, chunky and confident puppies- that's what makes a successful breeder, not the amount of profit that can be squeezed out of the animals.


----------



## Tanya1989

Lazhar said:


> Wrong, most dog breeder make no profit *because of their poor entrepreneurial skills*. Without neglecting your dogs, you can absolutely make money while breeding dogs. If you can't and should not control expenses, *you can absolutely increase income* (selling at a higher price.)
> 
> But to do so, you have to be a skilled salesperson.


You really are talking out your ar$e.


----------



## Meezey

Tanya1989 said:


> You really are talking out your ar$e.


Oh how I wish we could still rep people


----------



## StormyThai

Tanya1989 said:


> You really are talking out your ar$e.


I have actually asked this person what their experience is, as they have written a book on profiting from dog breeding!
The reply I got did not give me any hope that this person knows one end of an ethical breeding program from the other


----------



## Tanya1989

StormyThai said:


> I have actually asked this person what their experience is, as they have written a book on profiting from dog breeding!
> The reply I got did not give me any hope that this person knows one end of an ethical breeding program from the other


Its all well and good knowing the theory..... the theory of any business is to make your expenses as small as possible and your incomings as big as possible. The difference between this person and I is that I couldn't give two hoots as to my incomings and out goings because I don't consider ethical breeding a business.... My puppies have no expense spared, producing this litter in particular has cost me and arm and a leg, we aren't talking I'm a couple of hundred out of pocket, I'm talking thousands! Yet, 4 out of 5 of these puppies are going into show homes, something every show breeder aims for their show potential puppies going into the ring to show off how successful their litter was; nothing to do with the money, but a pride and a little bit of showing off (undeniably)- look how clever I have been in selecting the best mates I could find! If I breed the way the person I quoted then I am an incredibly unsuccessful breeder, if I breed the way I was taught, then I am a success. Luckily for me, I care more about my reputation than I do about money!


----------



## StormyThai

Ethical breeding should never be a business!
Breeding should never be about making money full stop, once you start moving on to wanting to make a profit you can't be considered an ethical breeder IMO


----------



## lovemybabies

As I said previously.... and in agreement with all the other posters. There is absolutely NO money in having puppies. Prenatal care of my female alone 3 office visits just to make sure she was ok and developing properly, One ultrasound and 2 subsequent xrays, another office visit immediately afterwards and making sure that all placentas were passed . Now lets talk about my male and female..... I am not going to state the exact amount of what I paid for them..and they were both from show lines with full genetic testing and both of their parents and grand parents were either Grand Champions and Champions in the ring AND my male does agility. Now lets talking about AFTER care of the female and pups. Vet visit @ 4 days old( today ) and tails and dew claws being done..... office visit, worming, and a CBC on my female to make sure that she doesn't have an infection,she doesn't have a fever but taking precautionary measures to make sure her blood count is in proper range and checking calcium levels and supplements for her calcium levels to make sure she is getting proper nutrition. Then there is the "baby care", where my vet will monitor the babies, do their fecal tests, puppy shots, and then a health certificate and evaluation by my vet for each individual pup.

So tell me.... after spending just that.... where is the money that one can make off a litter of pups?

I know... they have to have atleast 100-200 dogs to make it a business and definitely not have any form of medical care except what they can get from a feed/farm store or off the internet...... anyone in the "dog business for profit" can not afford these kind of price tags for healthy pups. If a Csection is needed... it is cheaper to get an adult female from someone that can't keep their dog for whatever reason for free and discard the female that was in labor and was having complications and whatever pup survived was given to another lactating female. 

Brutal truth... So please... tell me again HOW ANYONE CAN MAKE MONEY OR A PROFIT. I AM LISTENING.

OR ARE YOU TRYING TO SELL YOUR BOOK???????
MARKETING IT HERE ON THIS FORMUM AND MAKE PEOPLE THAT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT DOGS THAT GO TO PET STORES AND THEN THINK THEY CAN MAKE MONEY OFF THE LITTLE YORKIE THAT THEY JUST SPENT 2500 ON AND THINK... WOW.. I JUST NEED TO BREED HER TO GET MY MONEY BACK. THEN GET ANOTHER ONE AND ANOTHER ONE AND START HOARDING DOGS!




JUST SAYING.


----------



## DecantPet

So, dogs too get C-section? I bet I didn't know that. But I agree with you on a number of points in your thread.


----------



## caz58

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought I'd start this discussion, because it often comes up that people who breed, will make money. It's assumed, that at some point, over their *breeding career* there will be a profit.
> 
> I'd like to dispel that myth, at some points in time, you may end up cash rich, ie, you have a lot of cash in your hand, but that does not mean you are in profit.
> 
> So let's look at the costs, health testing for my two breeds is quite extensive, on average, I'd suggest it costs approx £700 each, including petrol costs driving to people who will take good quality plates. If anything isn't right, then that's at least £50 invested, which is the cost of the cheapest health test, for no return.
> 
> Equipment, I spent several hundred pounds on equipment for whelping, some of which can be used again, I need a new whelping box, I think mine cost about £70 from memory including delivery, and I went through various amounts of drugs which have a use by date so I will need them again. I'm guessing on average I've probably spent about £180 on things that I either made use of, or have gone past their sell by date, but bought in just in case I needed them.
> 
> Progesterone testing, at £60 a pop, driving it up to Idexx and paying for the vet to draw bloods, I reckon I spent at least £500 for five progesterone tests for Tau.
> 
> Stud dog fees and travel, Probably another £600 all told, so petrol and stud dog fees included.
> 
> Scans and ongoing treatment during pregnancy, probably about another £200 for a couple of trips, including a scan to confirm pregnancy.
> 
> Then you've got your increased bills, food etc, all of which soon hike up your utility bills by several hundred pounds over a short period. I know for a fact I was £1.5k in debt by the end of £2012, mostly down to the litter I had, I use very little otherwise.
> 
> And then for me, I may have come close to even, but Tau needed an emergency C-section, and then two pups died after trying to treat them, which in itself was close to £2.7k. I got £3k in payment for the five remaining pups. Work it out for yourself, those who think everyone is in it to make money, think again, and none of the money can ever make up for all of the hard work the heart ache of putting your bitch through a c-section (and spay) and losing pups that you've done your best to try and pull through.
> 
> So no, not everyone breeds for money, and if you think that's true of someone you're buying a pup from, then maybe you need to ask if you can find someone who breeds for something else.
> 
> Just to carry that on, and I've alluded to this in another thread, I'm probably going to be close to spending £3k on health testing and *campaigning* my two youngsters by the new year, and plan to travel to Europe to possibly see if I can find the right dog for Rhuna, pending on health test results, and how she pans out, although I can't see her temperament and ability being an issue. That's not a holiday, I don't have holidays, because my dogs come first, the dogs will stay at home in the care of one of the few people I trust with them, while I check out possible suitors.
> 
> Sorry for a bit of a rant, but it really is something that annoys me when people assume you are making vast sums of money from breeding, when it isn't always the case, I have lost lots of money so far from even breeding just the one litter. I did health tests on Tau's sister only to decide because her elbow plates weren't good, not to go ahead. I don't ever count on recouping that money, I don't want to, that's not what I'm involved with *breeding* for.


----------



## caz58

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought I'd start this discussion, because it often comes up that people who breed, will make money. It's assumed, that at some point, over their *breeding career* there will be a profit.
> 
> I'd like to dispel that myth, at some points in time, you may end up cash rich, ie, you have a lot of cash in your hand, but that does not mean you are in profit.
> 
> So let's look at the costs, health testing for my two breeds is quite extensive, on average, I'd suggest it costs approx £700 each, including petrol costs driving to people who will take good quality plates. If anything isn't right, then that's at least £50 invested, which is the cost of the cheapest health test, for no return.
> 
> Equipment, I spent several hundred pounds on equipment for whelping, some of which can be used again, I need a new whelping box, I think mine cost about £70 from memory including delivery, and I went through various amounts of drugs which have a use by date so I will need them again. I'm guessing on average I've probably spent about £180 on things that I either made use of, or have gone past their sell by date, but bought in just in case I needed them.
> 
> Progesterone testing, at £60 a pop, driving it up to Idexx and paying for the vet to draw bloods, I reckon I spent at least £500 for five progesterone tests for Tau.
> 
> Stud dog fees and travel, Probably another £600 all told, so petrol and stud dog fees included.
> 
> Scans and ongoing treatment during pregnancy, probably about another £200 for a couple of trips, including a scan to confirm pregnancy.
> 
> Then you've got your increased bills, food etc, all of which soon hike up your utility bills by several hundred pounds over a short period. I know for a fact I was £1.5k in debt by the end of £2012, mostly down to the litter I had, I use very little otherwise.
> 
> And then for me, I may have come close to even, but Tau needed an emergency C-section, and then two pups died after trying to treat them, which in itself was close to £2.7k. I got £3k in payment for the five remaining pups. Work it out for yourself, those who think everyone is in it to make money, think again, and none of the money can ever make up for all of the hard work the heart ache of putting your bitch through a c-section (and spay) and losing pups that you've done your best to try and pull through.
> 
> So no, not everyone breeds for money, and if you think that's true of someone you're buying a pup from, then maybe you need to ask if you can find someone who breeds for something else.
> 
> Just to carry that on, and I've alluded to this in another thread, I'm probably going to be close to spending £3k on health testing and *campaigning* my two youngsters by the new year, and plan to travel to Europe to possibly see if I can find the right dog for Rhuna, pending on health test results, and how she pans out, although I can't see her temperament and ability being an issue. That's not a holiday, I don't have holidays, because my dogs come first, the dogs will stay at home in the care of one of the few people I trust with them, while I check out possible suitors.
> 
> Sorry for a bit of a rant, but it really is something that annoys me when people assume you are making vast sums of money from breeding, when it isn't always the case, I have lost lots of money so far from even breeding just the one litter. I did health tests on Tau's sister only to decide because her elbow plates weren't good, not to go ahead. I don't ever count on recouping that money, I don't want to, that's not what I'm involved with *breeding* for.


----------



## caz58

I can`t believe that you are trying to make out that you don`t make any money from breeding!!!
What other reason is there for doing it?
It takes a toll on your bitch, and why put her through all that needlessly!!
What other reason is there for breeding, unless you plan to keep the entire litter!
Please don`t take offence as I have recently bred my female Shih Tzu, but I didn`t do it for the good of her health, I did it to make money.
I will probably only breed from her twice as this is her first litter, but to say you don`t breed for money is a joke!
Sorry if I have caused any offence.


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I can`t believe that you are trying to make out that you don`t make any money from breeding!!!
> What other reason is there for doing it?
> It takes a toll on your bitch, and why put her through all that needlessly!!
> What other reason is there for breeding, unless you plan to keep the entire litter!
> Please don`t take offence as I have recently bred my female Shih Tzu, but I didn`t do it for the good of her health, I did it to make money.
> I will probably only breed from her twice as this is her first litter, but to say you don`t breed for money is a joke!
> Sorry if I have caused any offence.


I take offence that you are using a dog to boost your income!!!!!!


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## miljar

caz58's Shih Tzu has 5 puppies. These are sold to 5 couples and, if you throw in a couple of kids, you end up with a dozen happy people - plus caz58 herself, so 13.
The people who bought the puppies obviously wanted one and so they would get a puppy from somewhere else if caz had not bred her girl. The same people would still have a puppy.
For them to have a puppy then a Shih Tzu, somewhere, would need to have a litter.
What is the problem?
When you buy a puppy the breeder will probably give a reason for breeding - but you will have no idea of whether or not that is the truth. It really does not have anything to do with the puppy buyer, or anyone else really.


----------



## StormyThai

caz58 said:


> I can`t believe that you are trying to make out that you don`t make any money from breeding!!!
> What other reason is there for doing it?
> It takes a toll on your bitch, and why put her through all that needlessly!!
> *What other reason is there for breeding, unless you plan to keep the entire litter!*
> Please don`t take offence as I have recently bred my female Shih Tzu, but I didn`t do it for the good of her health, I did it to make money.
> I will probably only breed from her twice as this is her first litter, but to say you don`t breed for money is a joke!
> Sorry if I have caused any offence.


For the bit in bold I suggest you read the thread, your question is answered, but you would need to make the effort to read what people have said.
As for you proudly announcing that you took on a bitch to make money, well my dear, it is people such as yourself that are to blame for the over population of dogs, it is people such as yourself that are to blame for the health of pups being compromised due to ignorance and/or greed (I will eat my hat if you can prove that the bitch has been health *tested* for all the relevant tests for the breed.

The joke is the person using a sentient being as their way of making an income


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## Meezey

miljar said:


> caz58's Shih Tzu has 5 puppies. These are sold to 5 couples and, if you throw in a couple of kids, you end up with a dozen happy people - plus caz58 herself, so 13.
> The people who bought the puppies obviously wanted one and so they would get a puppy from somewhere else if caz had not bred her girl. The same people would still have a puppy.
> For them to have a puppy then a Shih Tzu, somewhere, would need to have a litter.
> What is the problem?
> When you buy a puppy the breeder will probably give a reason for breeding - but you will have no idea of whether or not that is the truth. It really does not have anything to do with the puppy buyer, or anyone else really.


Ummm has Caz Retained you as her spokesman?

I do know my breeders reason for breeding! It certainly isn't to make money...


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## DecantPet

I absolutely don't think there's a problem in breeding for profit. We can't all be breeders anyway.


----------



## caz58

StormyThai said:


> For the bit in bold I suggest you read the thread, your question is answered, but you would need to make the effort to read what people have said.
> As for you proudly announcing that you took on a bitch to make money, well my dear, it is people such as yourself that are to blame for the over population of dogs, it is people such as yourself that are to blame for the health of pups being compromised due to ignorance and/or greed (I will eat my hat if you can prove that the bitch has been health *tested* for all the relevant tests for the breed.
> 
> The joke is the person using a sentient being as their way of making an income


----------



## caz58

I have never said that I bought the dog to breed from. I said she has had a litter of puppies. 
I also said that I would probably have one more litter from her.
She will live with me for her entire life, not be discarded when she is past breeding age, as so many so called "breeders" do with their bitches.
If someone buys a puppy from me (apparently I am considered a backyard breeder) then that potentially is one less puppy bought from a puppy farm.
And yes, she has had all the relevant health checks.
At least I am honest, and have admitted that I have bred her to make a profit


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I have never said that I bought the dog to breed from. I said she has had a litter of puppies.
> I also said that I would probably have one more litter from her.
> She will live with me for her entire life, not be discarded when she is past breeding age, as so many so called "breeders" do with their bitches.
> If someone buys a puppy from me (apparently I am considered a backyard breeder) then that potentially is one less puppy bought from a puppy farm.
> And yes, she has had all the relevant health checks.
> At least I am honest, and have admitted that I have bred her to make a profit


Health checks? In what respect? Is she KC register then?
Oh you didn't buy her to breed from that's okay then isn't it? Makes putting your dogs life at risk for money perfectly okay then doesn't it......Being honest about it doesn't make it okay?


----------



## StormyThai

StormyThai said:


> As for you proudly announcing that you *took* on a bitch to make money





caz58 said:


> I have never said that I bought the dog to breed from.


Yeah neither did I 

As for the rest of your post...the sad thing is you really don't get it...oh and I said *TESTS *not checks, two completely different things my dear


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> I can`t believe that you are trying to make out that you don`t make any money from breeding!!!
> What other reason is there for doing it?
> It takes a toll on your bitch, and why put her through all that needlessly!!
> What other reason is there for breeding, unless you plan to keep the entire litter!
> Please don`t take offence as I have recently bred my female Shih Tzu, but I didn`t do it for the good of her health, I did it to make money.
> I will probably only breed from her twice as this is her first litter, but to say you don`t breed for money is a joke!
> Sorry if I have caused any offence.


There are several reasons to breed, other than lining your own pockets.

The Guide Dogs for the Blind breed to try and produce pups who will make a huge difference to the lives of those living with no sight.

People breed to try and produce excellent working dogs, Police Dogs, etc.

Those who show will breed a litter when they want to keep a pup to show, which is what I used to do. They breed from the best bitches only and travel many hundreds of miles to take their bitch to the BEST dog for her, not the nearest. They are looking for a dog who will compliment her in every way and the aim is to produce puppies who are better than their parents, thus improving and bringing something to their chosen breed.

You, on the other hand, have bred purely to make a fast buck.

As you pointed out yourself, it takes a toll on your bitch and she shouldn't be put through all that needlessly.

In the above list, whose intentions are honourable, and whose are self serving?


----------



## simplysardonic

miljar said:


> caz58's Shih Tzu has 5 puppies. These are sold to 5 couples and, if you throw in a couple of kids, you end up with a dozen happy people - plus caz58 herself, so 13.
> The people who bought the puppies obviously wanted one and so they would get a puppy from somewhere else if caz had not bred her girl. The same people would still have a puppy.
> For them to have a puppy then a Shih Tzu, somewhere, would need to have a litter.
> What is the problem?
> When you buy a puppy the breeder will probably give a reason for breeding - but you will have no idea of whether or not that is the truth. It really does not have anything to do with the puppy buyer, or anyone else really.


What about the happiness of the breeding 'stock' & their progeny?

People shouldn't be breeding just to make other people & themselves 'happy', that is a pi$$ poor reason for breeding, or should I say 'greeding' as that's a more appropriate description of anyone who is making baby animals in order to make money


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> Health checks? In what respect? Is she KC register then?
> Oh you didn't buy her to breed from that's okay then isn't it? Makes putting your dogs life at risk for money perfectly okay then doesn't it......Being honest about it doesn't make it okay?


Yes, she is K.C. registered. 
Any pregnancy can pose risks, of which I was well informed, and well prepared to deal with, should anything arise.
I live twenty minutes drive from the animal hospital, and should any complications have arisen, I would have taken her straight there. 
Luckily, she whelped with no problems at all.
The pups have all been registered with the kennel club, and are very happy and healthy, as is the Mum (or should I say Dam on this site?)
She was checked by my vet prior to breeding from her.
I did not do this without a lot of thought, and I agree with the people on here that by the time you take off stud dog fees, time off work, feeding, etc etc etc,there may not be a huge profit. But it is still a profit!!
This is from the KC website regarding Shih Tzus.

There are not currently any veterinary screening schemes or DNA tests for disease relevant to this breed under the Assured Breeder Scheme, however you should still ask breeders and refer to breed clubs about health issues in the breed.

- See more at: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=4102#sthash.CMbyon7r.dpuf


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> There are several reasons to breed, other than lining your own pockets.
> 
> The Guide Dogs for the Blind breed to try and produce pups who will make a huge difference to the lives of those living with no sight.
> 
> People breed to try and produce excellent working dogs, Police Dogs, etc.
> 
> Those who show will breed a litter when they want to keep a pup to show, which is what I used to do. They breed from the best bitches only and travel many hundreds of miles to take their bitch to the BEST dog for her, not the nearest. They are looking for a dog who will compliment her in every way and the aim is to produce puppies who are better than their parents, thus improving and bringing something to their chosen breed.
> 
> You, on the other hand, have bred purely to make a fast buck.
> 
> As you pointed out yourself, it takes a toll on your bitch and she shouldn't be put through all that needlessly.
> 
> In the above list, whose intentions are honourable, and whose are self serving?


----------



## caz58

So it is not at all self serving to breed a dog to parade around the show ring??


----------



## StormyThai

caz58 said:


> So it is not at all self serving to breed a dog to parade around the show ring??


It's not exactly risking their life by asking them to trot in a circle now is it?


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> So it is not at all self serving to breed a dog to parade around the show ring??


If someone who shows breeds a pup who is an excellent and healthy specimen of the breed and she wins, then she herself, in time, will produce a litter of pups who, hopefully, will be even better than her. This is how breeds grow and improve.

At least the intention there is good. You have admitted that you bred from your bitch to make money. It's not the same thing, is it?

Can I ask how you found the very best stud dog to use on your bitch? Did you research pedigrees and temperaments?

How many miles did you travel and what are your hopes for how you can improve the breed?


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> If someone who shows breeds a pup who is an excellent and healthy specimen of the breed and she wins, then she herself, in time, will produce a litter of pups who, hopefully, will be even better than her. This is how breeds grow and improve.
> 
> At least the intention there is good. You have admitted that you bred from your bitch to make money. It's not the same thing, is it?
> 
> Can I ask how you found the very best stud dog to use on your bitch? Did you research pedigrees and temperaments?
> 
> How many miles did you travel and what are your hopes for how you can improve the breed?


I travelled about twenty five miles to the stud dog. 
Both the Dam and Sire have excellent temperaments, but as we all know, that does not guarantee that all the pups will have.
People breed for different reasons. I am breeding my puppies primarily as pets. Perhaps people like me shouldn`t own KC registered dogs.
I take it that you are saying that I shouldn`t risk my bitches life by allowing her to get pregnant, but that it is alright for show breeders to risk their dogs life to produce puppies that will ultimately be paraded round the show ring? I didn`t mean that being showed was a risk!
Show dogs are notoriously inbred.


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> If someone who shows breeds a pup who is an excellent and healthy specimen of the breed and she wins, then she herself, in time, will produce a litter of pups who, hopefully, will be even better than her. This is how breeds grow and improve.
> 
> At least the intention there is good. You have admitted that you bred from your bitch to make money. It's not the same thing, is it?
> 
> Can I ask how you found the very best stud dog to use on your bitch? Did you research pedigrees and temperaments?
> 
> How many miles did you travel and what are your hopes for how you can improve the breed?


----------



## caz58

Sorry it wasn`t you that said being asked to trot in a circle didn`t risk their life. My apologies.


----------



## Clare7435

To be honest, from what I've see lately in my area (which is very small.)..the only people I have seen making money from breeding are those who's pooches have 'accidently' been left together.. whilst have incidentally been in season ....why do people buy them though? seriously... The more people who buy in this kind of situation the more byb's are encouraged


----------



## Rafa

Show dogs are not notoriously inbred. They're line bred, there's a difference.

You've already admitted that you have bred your bitch for money and will breed her again to make more money.

Seriously, I do not know how that puts you in a position to preach morals to the rest of us.

In the main, show dogs are excellent specimens of their breed. They conform to the breed standard and that doesn't happen by accident. It takes planning, research, patience, work and a lot of expense.

Will your pups conform to the breed standard, be what they should be?

And how you can actually inform us that breeding takes a toll on the bitch when you're doing it purely for profit confounds me, it really does.


----------



## dogsaintdumb

HOW do you make money from breeding well?  I never made a dime from my working terrier litters and the breed doesn't have many testable health issues that I had to pay out for.


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Yes, she is K.C. registered.
> Any pregnancy can pose risks, of which I was well informed, and well prepared to deal with, should anything arise.
> I live twenty minutes drive from the animal hospital, and should any complications have arisen, I would have taken her straight there.
> Luckily, she whelped with no problems at all.
> The pups have all been registered with the kennel club, and are very happy and healthy, as is the Mum (or should I say Dam on this site?)
> She was checked by my vet prior to breeding from her.
> I did not do this without a lot of thought, and I agree with the people on here that by the time you take off stud dog fees, time off work, feeding, etc etc etc,there may not be a huge profit. But it is still a profit!!
> This is from the KC website regarding Shih Tzus.
> 
> There are not currently any veterinary screening schemes or DNA tests for disease relevant to this breed under the Assured Breeder Scheme, however you should still ask breeders and refer to breed clubs about health issues in the breed.
> 
> - See more at: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=4102#sthash.CMbyon7r.dpuf


With a lot of thought about how much money you could possibly make!


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I travelled about twenty five miles to the stud dog.
> Both the Dam and Sire have excellent temperaments, but as we all know, that does not guarantee that all the pups will have.
> People breed for different reasons. I am breeding my puppies primarily as pets. Perhaps people like me shouldn`t own KC registered dogs.
> I take it that you are saying that I shouldn`t risk my bitches life by allowing her to get pregnant, but that it is alright for show breeders to risk their dogs life to produce puppies that will ultimately be paraded round the show ring? I didn`t mean that being showed was a risk!
> Show dogs are notoriously inbred.


You risked your dogs life so you could have a bit of cash, and you are planning to do it again to line your own pockets!


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Show dogs are notoriously inbred.


Of course they are and your breedings COI was?

You risked your bitches life to line your own pockets you said it yourself...


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I can`t believe that you are trying to make out that you don`t make any money from breeding!!!
> *What other reason is there for doing it?*
> It takes a toll on your bitch, and why put her through all that needlessly!!
> What other reason is there for breeding, unless you plan to keep the entire litter!
> Please don`t take offence as I have recently bred my female Shih Tzu, but *I didn`t do it for the good of her health, I did it to make money.
> I will probably only breed from her twice* as this is her first litter, but to say you don`t breed for money is a joke!
> Sorry if I have caused any offence.


I'd class you as a puppy farmer!


----------



## Rafa

"I didn't do it for the good of her health, I did it to make money". Your words. Shame on you.

You are definitely a Backyard Breeder. In it for the money. 

For the sake of your bitch, I hope you have her spayed now after she has delivered for you a pocketful of cash. I suspect you won't and I don't believe you will have only one more litter from her.

I hope your money brings you happiness. I feel nothing but contempt for you and dismay that there are still people like you around who will use their pet dogs as cash cows.

I hope you're proud.


----------



## shamykebab

Out of curiosity, how many people on this forum have bred "show quality" litters? It's quite refreshing to see someone breeding just a couple of KC registered litters from tested dogs with good temperaments, rather than puppy farmers churning out countless poor quality litters targeted towards pet owners, or byb promoting the latest designer crossbreed trend.

The transparency and honesty from caz58 is quite agreeable. I think it's rather pretentious to claim that in breeding a litter you're "improving your breed" - it takes more than a couple of litters to do that! My dogs are from a numerically strong breed but I would say only a handful of influential breeders have historically improved the breed; the majority of [good] breeders just breed quality dogs - nothing groundbreaking but nothing detrimental to the breed either. The rest of the population is made up of untested, mediocre/poor bitches put to the latest champion of the month. Which is worse here?

As for profit, I have no qualms in saying I made a small profit on my last litter. Fully health tested parents, both sire and dam have their stud book numbers, good quality whelping equipment and food, pups microchipped and DNA tested for a genetic disease, no expense spared for an emergency veterinary consult on a bank holiday etc etc...and yes, I made a profit. It wasn't my primary objective, but there's no shame in it if no corners have been cut.


----------



## Guest

I guess for me the question to a breeder would be: how is what you’re producing any better than what can already be found in countless pounds, shelters, and rescues around the world? What is the point in producing these dogs if what you’re producing already exists (and already need homes)?

There are already some pretty awesome dogs available in rescue, plenty of purebreds too. What is the point of breeding more of the same? Even working type dogs are available in rescue now. Anyone who knows where and how to look can find their next working companion in rescue too. Hell, some of the best all purpose dogs I know are side of the road specials. 

So what are you as a breeder doing that’s better than what’s already out there?
Are you giving the pups the best start by addressing the health and temperament behind them?
Are you raising the puppies in an enriching and stimulation environment?
Are you cognizant of potential behavioral issues and knowledgeable on how to address them right from the get go? Like resource guarding or environmental sensitivities?
Do you follow up with puppy buyers and remain responsible and involved for the lifetime of every pup you produce?
Are you available to advise and mentor puppy buyers throughout the pup’s life?
Do you have a great network set up to help puppy buyers who might be far away or in a different country?
I could go on, but that’s the gist of it.

There are a LOT of dogs out there, no need to produce more unless what you’re doing is really above and beyond.


----------



## caz58

StormyThai said:


> It's not exactly risking their life by asking them to trot in a circle now is it?


No but the bitch that gave birth to the dog trotting round the show ring may have risked hers.


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> I'd class you as a puppy farmer!


Oh dear...


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> You risked your dogs life so you could have a bit of cash, and you are planning to do it again to line your own pockets!


I thought the general consensus on here was that breeding dogs didn`t make any money!!


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> "I didn't do it for the good of her health, I did it to make money". Your words. Shame on you.
> 
> You are definitely a Backyard Breeder. In it for the money.
> 
> For the sake of your bitch, I hope you have her spayed now after she has delivered for you a pocketful of cash. I suspect you won't and I don't believe you will have only one more litter from her.
> 
> I hope your money brings you happiness. I feel nothing but contempt for you and dismay that there are still people like you around who will use their pet dogs as cash cows.
> 
> I hope you're proud.


That`s a bit harsh! 
I have owned various dogs all my life and have never used any of them as "cash cows" as you so eloquently put it.
I took in a rescue dog many years ago, who`s owner could not be traced, and turned out to be pregnant. I had that dog (a Staffie cross) until she had to be put to sleep at fourteen years of age.
I now have a male Shih Tzu (neutered you`ll be pleased to know) and a female Shih Tzu.
I don`t care whether you believe that I`m only going to have one more litter from her or not. I may have no more litters from her.
You should get off your high horse!
People who show dogs don`t have the monopoly on breeding from them!
I think is sad that there are so many opinionated people like you around, that probably wouldn`t even entertain a rescue dog if it came and slept outside the door, because it wouldn`t meet the breed standard criteria!


----------



## Meezey

shamykebab said:


> Out of curiosity, how many people on this forum have bred "show quality" litters? It's quite refreshing to see someone breeding just a couple of KC registered litters from tested dogs with good temperaments, rather than puppy farmers churning out countless poor quality litters targeted towards pet owners, or byb promoting the latest designer crossbreed trend.
> 
> The transparency and honesty from caz58 is quite agreeable. I think it's rather pretentious to claim that in breeding a litter you're "improving your breed" - it takes more than a couple of litters to do that! My dogs are from a numerically strong breed but I would say only a handful of influential breeders have historically improved the breed; the majority of [good] breeders just breed quality dogs - nothing groundbreaking but nothing detrimental to the breed either. The rest of the population is made up of untested, mediocre/poor bitches put to the latest champion of the month. Which is worse here?
> 
> As for profit, I have no qualms in saying I made a small profit on my last litter. Fully health tested parents, both sire and dam have their stud book numbers, good quality whelping equipment and food, pups microchipped and DNA tested for a genetic disease, no expense spared for an emergency veterinary consult on a bank holiday etc etc...and yes, I made a profit. It wasn't my primary objective, but there's no shame in it if no corners have been cut.


There is nothing refreshing about it and I find it rather worry that you would consider breeding purely for money with no other reason that to make money refreshing?


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I thought the general consensus on here was that breeding dogs didn`t make any money!!


You breed purely for money, you can try and dress it up and be sarcastic about it!!

"I didn't do it for the good of here health, I did it to make money"

I see nothing "refreshing" "agreeable" about it! Want to make more money go get a high paid job.


----------



## miljar

simplysardonic said:


> What about the happiness of the breeding 'stock' & their progeny?
> 
> People shouldn't be breeding just to make other people & themselves 'happy', that is a pi$$ poor reason for breeding, or should I say 'greeding' as that's a more appropriate description of anyone who is making baby animals in order to make money


The "stock and progeny" eh? Well, caz has said that the girl is with her for life, so it reasonable to assume that there is a happy enough relationship there. Someone will come and choose the pups, from a pool of many, and pay good money to have one. You have to assume, therefore, that they will want the pup, and that they intend to have a good relationship with it.
Of course, I actually do not know - but then neither do you. We are both going on about something that we have no direct knowledge of.

A pi$$ poor reason? Really? What other reason is there?


----------



## shamykebab

Meezey said:


> There is nothing refreshing about it and I find it rather worry that you would consider breeding purely for money with no other reason that to make money refreshing?


I never said I'd breed for money - you need to re-read my post.

I said I found it refreshing that someone came out and admitted they were breeding for money rather than convincing themselves and others that their very mediocre bitch was worth breeding from "to improve the breed".


----------



## StormyThai

shamykebab said:


> I think it's rather pretentious to claim that in breeding a litter you're "improving your breed" - it takes more than a couple of litters to do that! .


It is mostly about improving the breeders OWN lines, if they manage to help improve the breed along the way then that goes on to help the breed as a whole.
I think responsible breeders are fully aware that it takes more than a couple of litters to achieve that - but to go into breeding with the sole purpose of making money is 100% unethical, nowt refreshing about that at all


----------



## Meezey

shamykebab said:


> I never said I'd breed for money - you need to re-read my post.
> 
> I said I found it refreshing that someone came out and admitted they were breeding for money rather than convincing themselves and others that their very mediocre bitch was worth breeding from "to improve the breed".


I didn't say you did! I find it worry that you seem to think it is so great that someone bred with no other intent than making a bit of cash from their pet, I find nothing refreshing nor is there anything appealing about it at all and its worrying that you do find it refreshing and appealing...


----------



## shamykebab

*sigh* What is so hard for people to understand that the _admission _is refreshing and not the act itself.

Comprehension really is a key skill for a discussion.


----------



## Meezey

shamykebab said:


> *sigh* What is so hard for people to understand that the _admission _is refreshing and not the act itself.
> 
> Comprehension really is a key skill for a discussion.


Yes of course comprehension is a key skill for discussion what part of NOTHING about her breeding purely for cash is appealing nor refreshing.*sigh* why is that so hard for YOU to understand?


----------



## StormyThai

shamykebab said:


> *sigh* What is so hard for people to understand that the _admission _is refreshing and not the act itself.
> 
> Comprehension really is a key skill for a discussion.


I haven't misunderstood anything, I just don't agree with what you have said - huge difference


----------



## Dogloverlou

I think the issue here is not the fact Caz bred her dog, but the fact she announces it was all about profit. How is that refreshing? It indicates to me that the bitch's welfare was not a priority.

Caz does raise some interesting points IMO. Anyone who breeds is doing so for a purely selfish reason, and yes, even those who do everything right. But at least good breeders put as much thought and care into the bitch & sire's welfare as they can to minimize the chances of things going wrong.

I'm considering using Cash at stud in the future for a number of reasons and I can hand on heart say money is not one of those! Not that a stud owner really 'profits' from breeding anyway.

But I've recently been shocked by a breeder in my breed and her attitude towards her dogs, that's made me question again just how many 'top' breeders see their dogs as pets first and foremost, or as a business.....


----------



## shamykebab

Meezey said:


> Yes of course comprehension is a key skill for discussion what part of NOTHING about her breeding purely for cash is appealing nor refreshing.*sigh* why is that so hard for YOU to understand?


Probably because I've seen and been involved with many consequences of terrible breeding ethics and shocking ignorance that someone deciding to breed two health tested KC registered dogs with good temperaments isn't the worst thing in animal husbandry.


----------



## Rafa

shamykebab said:


> I never said I'd breed for money - you need to re-read my post.
> 
> I said I found it refreshing that someone came out and admitted they were breeding for money rather than convincing themselves and others that their very mediocre bitch was worth breeding from "to improve the breed".


Oh, so if I come out and admit that I stole money from a Charity box, would that be refreshing, because I admitted it?

That's flawed logic if ever I heard it.


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> That`s a bit harsh!
> I have owned various dogs all my life and have never used any of them as "cash cows" as you so eloquently put it.
> I took in a rescue dog many years ago, who`s owner could not be traced, and turned out to be pregnant. I had that dog (a Staffie cross) until she had to be put to sleep at fourteen years of age.
> I now have a male Shih Tzu (neutered you`ll be pleased to know) and a female Shih Tzu.
> I don`t care whether you believe that I`m only going to have one more litter from her or not. I may have no more litters from her.
> You should get off your high horse!
> People who show dogs don`t have the monopoly on breeding from them!
> I think is sad that there are so many opinionated people like you around, that probably wouldn`t even entertain a rescue dog if it came and slept outside the door, because it wouldn`t meet the breed standard criteria!


My Son and I rescued a beautiful, elderly Staffy girl who we sadly lost to old age twelve months ago.

When I was showing PRTs, I co-ordinated the PRT Rescue for several years and then worked in Jack Russell Rescue for a further eight years.

I rescued and rehomed three dogs last year, a Staffy, a Terrier Cross and a Shih Tzu.


----------



## dogsaintdumb

I'm still wondering how you even make a profit on a litter of well bred dogs TBH. Even when a lot of prior health testing isn't necessary for the breed, you'll be out of pocket.


----------



## Meezey

shamykebab said:


> Probably because I've seen and been involved with many consequences of terrible breeding ethics and shocking ignorance that someone deciding to breed two health tested KC registered dogs with good temperaments isn't the worst thing in animal husbandry.


So because of that you find it perfectly acceptable to breed for cash? I have also seen and been involved but that doesn't make me think breeding for cash isn't terrible breeding ethics, it is. You don't know anything about the dogs temperaments, I'd bet they haven't been independently temperament tested? A vet check wonderful? While the KC don't recommend any health test for the breed the breed comes with a raft if health problems good breeders would still test for the even if the KC don't recommend it! There are not levels of unethical breeding! All unethical breeding should be stopped people and people shouldn't be using dogs to boost their income. You patting them on the back and finding them refreshing and appealing doesn't help the bitch she uses to bolster her income.


----------



## StormyThai

shamykebab said:


> Probably because I've seen and been involved with many consequences of terrible breeding ethics and shocking ignorance that someone deciding to breed two health tested KC registered dogs with good temperaments isn't the worst thing in animal husbandry.


Not being the worst for something doesn't make it right...using sentient beings for a profit may not be the worst thing in the world, but is far removed from anything ethical.


----------



## Darth

I breed my bitches, I don't show, I don't compete with them in any way now.....but they are all health tested, well socialised and live in the comfort of my home.

I have an influx of cash when the puppies move on to their well vetted new homes, I don't make a profit if I take all upkeep, vet, mating fees and everything else I pay out into consideration, but I thoroughly enjoy raising puppies, probably as much, if not more, than showing my dogs.

Now......does this make me a byb or puppy farmer?


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I breed my bitches, I don't show, I don't compete with them in any way now.....but they are all health tested, well socialised and live in the comfort of my home.
> 
> I have an influx of cash when the puppies move on to their well vetted new homes, I don't make a profit if I take all upkeep, vet, mating fees and everything else I pay out into consideration, but I thoroughly enjoy raising puppies, probably as much, if not more, than showing my dogs.
> 
> Now......does this make me a byb or puppy farmer?


Do you breed just to make money?


----------



## Dogloverlou

You see, I don't personally see the need to be breeding 'just good' family pets to be honest, especially in a numerically strong breed where countless of other people are breeding 'just good' family pets too. Not saying there shouldn't be a focus on breeding for family pets, but I don't see why all and sundry have to be doing it.


----------



## Rafa

Darth said:


> I breed my bitches, I don't show, I don't compete with them in any way now.....but they are all health tested, well socialised and live in the comfort of my home.
> 
> I have an influx of cash when the puppies move on to their well vetted new homes, I don't make a profit if I take all upkeep, vet, mating fees and everything else I pay out into consideration, but I thoroughly enjoy raising puppies, probably as much, if not more, than showing my dogs.
> 
> Now......does this make me a byb or puppy farmer?


In my opinion, what makes a Backyard Breeder is someone who breeds from non health tested Parents, using the nearest accessible dog available, whether or not he's right for the bitch, purely to make money.


----------



## PawsandFeathers

Breeders can make money in my view its none of my business and not my choice what others do with their dogs as long as 

The bitches and dogs are health tested and that means not just a once over with vet, puppies are living in suitable conditions in accordence to the RSPCA and not removed from mum too early then a breeder can name their price and make money if they want to.

I don't like terms like puppy farmers and bybs they don't mean anything and often mean the wrong thing. You go to a breeder you assess the living conditions of the puppies and the adults present you hope that you are interviewed and that the breeder can answer your questions. If you don't like what you see you do not buy!


----------



## Rafa

PawsandFeathers said:


> Breeders can make money in my view its none of my business and not my choice what others do with their dogs as long as
> 
> The bitches and dogs are health tested and that means not just a once over with vet, puppies are living in suitable conditions in accordence to the RSPCA and not removed from mum too early then a breeder can name their price and make money if they want to.
> 
> I don't like terms like puppy farmers and bybs they don't mean anything and often mean the wrong thing. You go to a breeder you assess the living conditions of the puppies and the adults present you hope that you are interviewed and that the breeder can answer your questions. If you don't like what you see you do not buy!


You may not like the term 'Puppy Farmers', but Puppy Farms certainly exist.

There is a puppy 'outlet' not far from me and they sell pups of more or less every breed. It's a huge place and they have a very large shop selling all dog accessories and food.

The pups in there are brought in large vans from a Puppy Farm in Wales. Most of them are far from eight weeks old and probably have not even been weaned.

Every weekend, there are people in there, buying a pup at top whack prices and then being shown to the shop to buy "everything their pup will need".

Most of these people have no idea where these pups have come from or what a terrible start in life they have had.


----------



## PawsandFeathers

Surely thats the the buyers choice if they wish to pay silly money for half rated pups?

The buyer should take blame that bad breeders exist. Quite often the term puppy farmer is mistaken for the guy down the road that just lets his bitch have puppies which still is not right but I just think its wrong to make labels. A bad breeder is a breeder a bad buyer is a bad buyer breeders should not be blamed for everything buyers need to take part of the responsibility.


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> I breed my bitches, I don't show, I don't compete with them in any way now.....but they are all health tested, well socialised and live in the comfort of my home.
> 
> I have an influx of cash when the puppies move on to their well vetted new homes, I don't make a profit if I take all upkeep, vet, mating fees and everything else I pay out into consideration, but I thoroughly enjoy raising puppies, probably as much, if not more, than showing my dogs.
> 
> Now......does this make me a byb or puppy farmer?


I would ask again, how is what you are producing different than what already exists in shelters and rescue?
As below 


ouesi said:


> I guess for me the question to a breeder would be: how is what you're producing any better than what can already be found in countless pounds, shelters, and rescues around the world? What is the point in producing these dogs if what you're producing already exists (and already need homes)?
> 
> There are already some pretty awesome dogs available in rescue, plenty of purebreds too. What is the point of breeding more of the same? Even working type dogs are available in rescue now. Anyone who knows where and how to look can find their next working companion in rescue too. Hell, some of the best all purpose dogs I know are side of the road specials.
> 
> So what are you as a breeder doing that's better than what's already out there?
> Are you giving the pups the best start by addressing the health and temperament behind them?
> Are you raising the puppies in an enriching and stimulation environment?
> Are you cognizant of potential behavioral issues and knowledgeable on how to address them right from the get go? Like resource guarding or environmental sensitivities?
> Do you follow up with puppy buyers and remain responsible and involved for the lifetime of every pup you produce?
> Are you available to advise and mentor puppy buyers throughout the pup's life?
> Do you have a great network set up to help puppy buyers who might be far away or in a different country?
> I could go on, but that's the gist of it.
> 
> There are a LOT of dogs out there, no need to produce more unless what you're doing is really above and beyond.


----------



## MerlinsMum

PawsandFeathers said:


> A bad breeder is a breeder a bad buyer is a bad buyer breeders should not be blamed for everything buyers need to take part of the responsibility.


In that case why do we even have Trading Standards?


----------



## simplysardonic

miljar said:


> The "stock and progeny" eh? Well, caz has said that the girl is with her for life, so it reasonable to assume that there is a happy enough relationship there. Someone will come and choose the pups, from a pool of many, and pay good money to have one. You have to assume, therefore, that they will want the pup, and that they intend to have a good relationship with it.
> Of course, I actually do not know - but then neither do you. We are both going on about something that we have no direct knowledge of.
> 
> A pi$$ poor reason? Really? What other reason is there?


Don't patronise me please, I & quite a few others on here know you know a lot more about the ins & outs of breeding (especially for money) than you let on! 

As for reasons?

How about the fact they are sentient beings, I personally find it morally reprehensible for people to view living things as a way to make money.

How about the fact that in order to do it 'properly', with the welfare of the sire, the dam, their health & their babies' health, you can't cut corners; ergo, it is impossible to make money.


----------



## PawsandFeathers

MerlinsMum said:


> In that case why do we even have Trading Standards?


I don't think the average puppy seller even thinks they fall under trading standards o.0


----------



## Rafa

PawsandFeathers said:


> Surely thats the the buyers choice if they wish to pay silly money for half rated pups?
> 
> The buyer should take blame that bad breeders exist. Quite often the term puppy farmer is mistaken for the guy down the road that just lets his bitch have puppies which still is not right but I just think its wrong to make labels. A bad breeder is a breeder a bad buyer is a bad buyer breeders should not be blamed for everything buyers need to take part of the responsibility.


No. The bad breeders are responsible for what they do.

Many people do not realise they're buying a poorly pup. They believe that because they are paying handsomely, they are buying a good one.

You can't blame what backyard breeders do on anyone other than the breeders themselves.


----------



## MerlinsMum

PawsandFeathers said:


> I don't think the average puppy seller even thinks they fall under trading standards o.0


Most don't, but that wasn't my point.... If buyers aren't offered some sort of protection against unscrupulous sellers, then every washing machine could blow up, every car fall apart, and the sellers will just laugh. Most people buying a washing machine or a car haven't the faintest clue what to look for to make sure it's in good working order, will last a long time and not kill anyone.


----------



## PawsandFeathers

Sweety said:


> No. The bad breeders are responsible for what they do.
> 
> Many people do not realise they're buying a poorly pup. They believe that because they are paying handsomely, they are buying a good one.
> 
> You can't blame what backyard breeders do on anyone other than the breeders themselves.


I think they do we pfers do not give them enough credit. The sad thing is people either feel sorry in other words they do realise or they are just inexperienced if you don't have any resources of info, don't fully research how do you know what your looking for? Most just buy in good faith but I think the most do know their not getting something as good as they could.

Anyone can see poor conditions you see them when you go to the breeder its your choice at the end of the day to walk away.

If people were not so quick to purchase the first thing they see and shopped around first they would save themselves a lot of heart ache I hold the buyer responsible for existence of bad breeders. If buyers did not make poor decission so many poor breeders would not exist.


----------



## MerlinsMum

PawsandFeathers said:


> I think they do we pfers do not give them enough credit.


Rubbish. Joe Bloggs wants a dog and hasn't even heard of most inherited canine diseases. And he wants one local, and cheap as possible. OR he wants something nobody else has got and will therefore part with £1-2K for a crossbreed or a so-called "rare" colour which isn't even recognised in the breed standard.

There are very few people who bother to do any research, and even some of those don't listen to sound advice.


----------



## RottieRubysMum

I'd love to see your calculations, when you're claiming to make a "profit" from the lives of your animals. Either you're cutting a lot of corners, risking and hindering the lives of your animals, or you're charging a ridiculous amount for your puppies. Your reasoning seems to be simply "Supply and Demand", ignoring the fact that you're dealing in lives, not products. I have no doubt that if you could breed your dogs on a large scale, you would, therefore you are just as bad as a puppy farmer! You are not putting your dogs first.

Personally, I don't find your admission refreshing, I find it arrogant and revolting. When you look yourself in the mirror at night, the person looking back at you lacks morals, ethics and *uses *innocent lives as a money making ploy!

As an owner of an ex-BYB bitch, can I just say on behalf of all the dogs around the world, currently being bred for money; go f*ck yourself.


----------



## astro2011

Jesus....I cannot understand how you can blame a buyer for a byb dog.How do you know the living conditions they see aren't great, but what they are actual kept in arent? Also how is it their fault for a badly bred dog. Most people would not be aware of health tests ect...I know I wasn't aware of this, and I know I'm not the only one.


----------



## Rafa

PawsandFeathers said:


> Breeders can make money in my view its none of my business and not my choice what others do with their dogs as long as
> 
> The bitches and dogs are health tested and that means not just a once over with vet, puppies are living in suitable conditions in accordence to the RSPCA and not removed from mum too early then a breeder can name their price and make money if they want to.
> 
> I don't like terms like puppy farmers and bybs they don't mean anything and often mean the wrong thing. You go to a breeder you assess the living conditions of the puppies and the adults present you hope that you are interviewed and that the breeder can answer your questions. If you don't like what you see you do not buy!


Oh, by the way. Welcome back Prowl. Controversial as always.


----------



## caz58

RottieRubysMum said:


> I'd love to see your calculations, when you're claiming to make a "profit" from the lives of your animals. Either you're cutting a lot of corners, risking and hindering the lives of your animals, or you're charging a ridiculous amount for your puppies. Your reasoning seems to be simply "Supply and Demand", ignoring the fact that you're dealing in lives, not products. I have no doubt that if you could breed your dogs on a large scale, you would, therefore you are just as bad as a puppy farmer! You are not putting your dogs first.
> 
> Personally, I don't find your admission refreshing, I find it arrogant and revolting. When you look yourself in the mirror at night, the person looking back at you lacks morals, ethics and *uses *innocent lives as a money making ploy!
> 
> As an owner of an ex-BYB bitch, can I just say on behalf of all the dogs around the world, currently being bred for money; go f*ck yourself.


----------



## Meezey

Sweety said:


> Oh, by the way. Welcome back Prowl. Controversial as always.


Oh prowl back again??? Wasn't she banned again for coming back under another username?


----------



## Rafa

Meezey said:


> Oh prowl back again??? Wasn't she banned again for coming back under another username?


I think she's been a 'Guest' for a while, but according to her profile, that's who she is.


----------



## Meezey

Sweety said:


> I think she's been a 'Guest' for a while, but according to her profile, that's who she is.


Oh right so like last time not back to cause trouble but straight in to controversial threads.......... Interesting...


----------



## caz58

Have you actually read anything I have written about taking care of my dog. I am only considered a BYB because I DON`T breed on a large scale!
If I did it on a slightly larger scale, and bred dogs to enter the show world, then no doubt I would be considered an ethical breeder because the profit (from the dogs that were not suitable to be shown, and are presumably sold and not given away) would go back into my showing. Its still a profit! They are still making money, whatever they choose to do with it.
The dog I chose for my bitch has a great pedigree, as does she. The COI according to the KC website for these two dogs is 5.75. There are currently no health checks required for this breed, as I have already said in my previous post. Shih Tzus can be prone to a number of illnesses in later life, but unfortunately these are not predictable.
My dogs, and my puppies are all healthy and happy. They are in clean surroundings, they are wormed, they are fed on good quality food, they are played with every day, and let outside to run round when the weather is nice.
I will be really careful who I let the puppies go to, and I will ask a lot of questions. I already have good homes for three of them. They are five weeks old.
Yes, as several people have pointed out, when you take stud dog fees etc into consideration it probably isn`t a huge ammount of money. All I`m saying is that it is still a profit!
There is no need to blame me for all the unwanted dogs in the world, all the puppy farmers, all the discarded bitches and all the animals living a life of misery!
Mine are not! I have bred one litter of five pups for Gods sake!
Get a life!


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Have you actually read anything I have written about taking care of my dog. I am only considered a BYB because I DON`T breed on a large scale!
> If I did it on a slightly larger scale, and bred dogs to enter the show world, then no doubt I would be considered an ethical breeder because the profit (from the dogs that were not suitable to be shown, and are presumably sold and not given away) would go back into my showing. Its still a profit! They are still making money, whatever they choose to do with it.
> The dog I chose for my bitch has a great pedigree, as does she. The COI according to the KC website for these two dogs is 5.75. There are currently no health checks required for this breed, as I have already said in my previous post. Shih Tzus can be prone to a number of illnesses in later life, but unfortunately these are not predictable.
> My dogs, and my puppies are all healthy and happy. They are in clean surroundings, they are wormed, they are fed on good quality food, they are played with every day, and let outside to run round when the weather is nice.
> I will be really careful who I let the puppies go to, and I will ask a lot of questions. I already have good homes for three of them. They are five weeks old.
> Yes, as several people have pointed out, when you take stud dog fees etc into consideration it probably isn`t a huge ammount of money. All I`m saying is that it is still a profit!
> There is no need to blame me for all the unwanted dogs in the world, all the puppy farmers, all the discarded bitches and all the animals living a life of misery!
> Mine are not! I have bred one litter of five pups for Gods sake!
> Get a life!


Which you bred for no other reason to make yourself money you seem to be skipping over that point each and every time.. £££££ was your only reason for breeding..


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> Have you actually read anything I have written about taking care of my dog. I am only considered a BYB because I DON`T breed on a large scale!
> If I did it on a slightly larger scale, and bred dogs to enter the show world, then no doubt I would be considered an ethical breeder because the profit (from the dogs that were not suitable to be shown, and are presumably sold and not given away) would go back into my showing. Its still a profit! They are still making money, whatever they choose to do with it.
> The dog I chose for my bitch has a great pedigree, as does she. The COI according to the KC website for these two dogs is 5.75. There are currently no health checks required for this breed, as I have already said in my previous post. Shih Tzus can be prone to a number of illnesses in later life, but unfortunately these are not predictable.
> My dogs, and my puppies are all healthy and happy. They are in clean surroundings, they are wormed, they are fed on good quality food, they are played with every day, and let outside to run round when the weather is nice.
> I will be really careful who I let the puppies go to, and I will ask a lot of questions. I already have good homes for three of them. They are five weeks old.
> Yes, as several people have pointed out, when you take stud dog fees etc into consideration it probably isn`t a huge ammount of money. All I`m saying is that it is still a profit!
> There is no need to blame me for all the unwanted dogs in the world, all the puppy farmers, all the discarded bitches and all the animals living a life of misery!
> Mine are not! I have bred one litter of five pups for Gods sake!
> Get a life!


What do you mean by "a great pedigree"?


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> Have you actually read anything I have written about taking care of my dog. I am only considered a BYB because I DON`T breed on a large scale!
> If I did it on a slightly larger scale, and bred dogs to enter the show world, then no doubt I would be considered an ethical breeder because the profit (from the dogs that were not suitable to be shown, and are presumably sold and not given away) would go back into my showing. Its still a profit! They are still making money, whatever they choose to do with it.
> The dog I chose for my bitch has a great pedigree, as does she. The COI according to the KC website for these two dogs is 5.75. There are currently no health checks required for this breed, as I have already said in my previous post. Shih Tzus can be prone to a number of illnesses in later life, but unfortunately these are not predictable.
> My dogs, and my puppies are all healthy and happy. They are in clean surroundings, they are wormed, they are fed on good quality food, they are played with every day, and let outside to run round when the weather is nice.
> I will be really careful who I let the puppies go to, and I will ask a lot of questions. I already have good homes for three of them. They are five weeks old.
> Yes, as several people have pointed out, when you take stud dog fees etc into consideration it probably isn`t a huge ammount of money. All I`m saying is that it is still a profit!
> There is no need to blame me for all the unwanted dogs in the world, all the puppy farmers, all the discarded bitches and all the animals living a life of misery!
> Mine are not! I have bred one litter of five pups for Gods sake!
> Get a life!


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> Which you bred for no other reason to make yourself money you seem to be skipping over that point each and every time.. £££££ was your only reason for breeding..


I haven`t skipped over that point at all. I said that in my very first post. The reason I said it in the first place was because of all the posts denying there was any profit to be made!


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> I haven`t skipped over that point at all. I said that in my very first post. The reason I said it in the first place was because of all the posts denying there was any profit to be made!


You are missing a very important point.

There is little or no profit to be made - if you do it properly.

I would really like you to tell us. What stud fee did you pay for the dog you chose? How much have the health tests cost?


----------



## RottieRubysMum

caz58 said:


> Have you actually read anything I have written about taking care of my dog. I am only considered a BYB because I DON`T breed on a large scale!
> If I did it on a slightly larger scale, and bred dogs to enter the show world, then no doubt I would be considered an ethical breeder because the profit (from the dogs that were not suitable to be shown, and are presumably sold and not given away) would go back into my showing. Its still a profit! They are still making money, whatever they choose to do with it.
> The dog I chose for my bitch has a great pedigree, as does she. The COI according to the KC website for these two dogs is 5.75. There are currently no health checks required for this breed, as I have already said in my previous post. Shih Tzus can be prone to a number of illnesses in later life, but unfortunately these are not predictable.
> My dogs, and my puppies are all healthy and happy. They are in clean surroundings, they are wormed, they are fed on good quality food, they are played with every day, and let outside to run round when the weather is nice.
> I will be really careful who I let the puppies go to, and I will ask a lot of questions. I already have good homes for three of them. They are five weeks old.
> Yes, as several people have pointed out, when you take stud dog fees etc into consideration it probably isn`t a huge ammount of money. All I`m saying is that it is still a profit!
> There is no need to blame me for all the unwanted dogs in the world, all the puppy farmers, all the discarded bitches and all the animals living a life of misery!
> Mine are not! I have bred one litter of five pups for Gods sake!
> Get a life!


I will blame you and everyone like you for the misery of these dogs, because you are one cog in a network of misery. Don't get defensive about your decisions when you've brazenly announced to a community of dog lovers that you have bred for profit and intend to do it again at the risk of your dog's health. There is no excusing that!


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> You are missing a very important point.
> 
> There is little or no profit to be made - if you do it properly.
> 
> I would really like you to tell us. What stud fee did you pay for the dog you chose? How much have the health tests cost?


The stud dog was £150. I have already explained about the health test if you read my last post.


----------



## RottieRubysMum

caz58 said:


> The stud dog was £150. I have already explained about the health test if you read my last post.


And your cost of feed each month? Vet fees? Cost of your bitch in the first place? Health tests? Vaccinations for your pups? Worming and fleaing for mum and pups? Then how much do you charge for a pup?


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I haven`t skipped over that point at all. I said that in my very first post. The reason I said it in the first place was because of all the posts denying there was any profit to be made!


You only bred to make money you are totally missing that point, yes in some cases people might make money from a litter ( it is very rare) but you are proud of the fact you bred in your own words to make a profit! You chose to risk your bitch so you could have money, you might have another litter so you can have some extra cash and for no other reason than to make you money...


----------



## MerlinsMum

caz58 said:


> The stud dog was £150. .


OMG..... that's incredibly cheap. In most breeds, the fee for using a fully health tested stud dog costs between three-quarters of the price of a puppy, or the full price.

I have even sought the services of an outside rabbit stud in the past - cost me the full price of a well-raised young rabbit - and the doe only had 2 (which I kept).


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> The stud dog was £150. I have already explained about the health test if you read my last post.


Can't of been that great a pedigree if the stud fee was that small even if your breed has no health tests that Gumtree prices... Seriously.....


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> The dog I chose for my bitch has a great pedigree, as does she


Whats the stud names?


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> You only bred to make money you are totally missing that point, yes in some cases people might make money from a litter ( it is very rare) but you are proud of the fact you bred in your own words to make a profit! You chose to risk your bitch so you could have money, you might have another litter so you can have some extra cash and for no other reason than to make you money...


Why is it very rare??


----------



## caz58

Kiyos Dad said:


> Whats the stud names?


Mind your own business!!


----------



## MerlinsMum

Honesty and openness are good virtues in a breeder.


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> Mind your own business!!


Not proud of your KC reg pups then?


----------



## caz58

Kiyos Dad said:


> Not proud of your KC reg pups then?


?????


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Why is it very rare??


Because people pay stud fees, they have health tests done, DNA, blood tests, they spend time and money travelling to find the right stud for their bitch who compliments her, rather than the dog closest to them, they take time off work to be with puppies, food, test, whelping boxes etc....


----------



## StormyThai

caz58 said:


> I am only considered a BYB because I DON`T breed on a large scale!
> If I did it on a slightly larger scale, and bred dogs to enter the show world, then no doubt I would be considered an ethical breeder because the profit (from the dogs that were not suitable to be shown, and are presumably sold and not given away) would go back into my showing. Its still a profit! They are still making money, whatever they choose to do with it.


That right there shows how little you know about the ethical breeding world...
The sad thing is that no matter what anyone says, you will continue to be blind to what you are talking about.

The "profit" does not go back into show costs, the "profit" is spent on the litter on the ground...food, whelping box, vet fee's, KC registration, advertising fee's (if needed, as most will run from waiting lists) and any other expenses incurred whilst raising a well rounded socialised litter of puppies.
You did no health tests so that saved you a few bob...although that shows how little research you did because although the KC don't actually list any tests ethical breeders will test for renal dysplasia as it is prevalent in the breed....

Now if you are happy with what you have done then that is awesome, but don't come onto a pet lovers forum telling everyone how you can make a profit from breeding unethically without expecting to get some "flack" for it


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> ?????


If it helps, I can spell it for you?

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/registration/


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> Because people pay stud fees, they have health tests done, DNA, blood tests, they spend time and money travelling to find the right stud for their bitch who compliments her, rather than the dog closest to them, they take time off work to be with puppies, food, test, whelping boxes etc....


I have already told you about the health tests for this breed.....we are going round in circles. I obviously have a whelping box. I have taken quite a lot of time off work. 
I don`t really have any more to add, because everyone, including myself are just saying the same thing, over and over....


----------



## MerlinsMum

caz58 said:


> I have already told you about the health tests for this breed.....we are going round in circles. I obviously have a whelping box. I have taken quite a lot of time off work.
> I don`t really have any more to add, because everyone, including myself are just saying the same thing, over and over....


I completely agree. We are all wasting our breath...

Just as an aside and out of curiosity, if one of the buyers of your puppies contacted you in 10 years' time saying they could no longer keep the dog, would you take it back? If one went blind at 6 years of age, would you give it a loving home for the rest of its days?


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I have already told you about the health tests for this breed.....we are going round in circles. I obviously have a whelping box. I have taken quite a lot of time off work.
> I don`t really have any more to add, because everyone, including myself are just saying the same thing, over and over....


You came on here proud as punch you'd bred your bitch for money, £150 is a paltry amount for a stud fee and would say to me your litters sire isn't as wonderful as you make out and you chose the cheapest closest dog off Gumtree. You try to justify your unethical breeding practice's by throwing others under the bus! You research everything that people offer on here but never manage to put it forward yourself first as what would make you ethical!


----------



## Meezey

MerlinsMum said:


> I completely agree. We are all wasting our breath...
> 
> Just as an aside and out of curiosity, if one of the buyers of your puppies contacted you in 10 years' time saying they could no longer keep the dog, would you take it back? If one went blind at 6 years of age, would you give it a loving home for the rest of its days?


Oh course she will say yes because you've given her that information of what an ethical breeder would do lol Something she has done throughout the thread I would hope the insight to what ethical breeds do would make her reconsider breeding her bitch again, but as she bred for money in the first instance I doubt it...


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> I have already told you about the health tests for this breed.....we are going round in circles. I obviously have a whelping box. I have taken quite a lot of time off work.
> I don`t really have any more to add, because everyone, including myself are just saying the same thing, over and over....


Stud/Kennel name?


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> Mind your own business!!


Is that what you're going to say to potential purchasers of your pups when they ask who is Dad?

£150 is ridiculous. I was paying more than that twenty five years ago for the services of a good stud dog and petrol and accommodation costs to take my bitch to the best dog.

You can argue and justify until you're blue in the face. Everything about what you've done is wrong.

Will you be guaranteeing to take back any pup you have bred at any point in it's life? Could you tell us on with what your pups have been wormed and when they've been wormed and what worming programme Mum was on during her pregnancy? (Without Googling it that is).


----------



## dogsaintdumb

@caz58 No, really though... I haven't made a penny from my three litters of five and one litter of one puppies...Bred twice from foundation bitch, and once each from two of her pups (obviously not while they were still puppies)...Once I'd paid out for the OFA and CERF testing for the four terriers owned by me (foundation dog, foundation bitch and two females produced by those two dogs) and then paid the stud fee and travel costs for the stud dog I used for the two female puppies...Then paid for the first set of vaccinations and general check-up for the four litters I bred, plus the care of the pregnant bitch, and any emergency vet care necessary (foundation bitch needed an emergency spay after her final/second litter left her with a ruptured uterus, and her 2y/o puppy also needed an emergency spay following "unforeseen complications" -- vet's words...) plus the whelping set-up, it actually cost me a bit of money to make sure the pups got to decent homes as well (in travel costs).

Not to mention the all-too-real possibility of the dam neglecting to care for the pups for whatever reason. My foundation bitch dried up when her pups were just shy of 2 weeks old due to the emergency spay -- it was expected. That meant hand rearing them. My 3y/o bitch simply refused to look after her puppies, so another litter to be hand raised. Then take into account the post-whelp care of the bitch and the care the puppies need for _at least_ 8 weeks. I also paid for a 6 week training programme with a local "pet dog trainer" who I'd taken all of my dogs to. The new owners didn't have to take their puppies, but the option was there. And puppy packs. Also had the pups microchipped before they went to their new homes.

Even ignoring the "sod's law" occurrences like rupturing uteruses and neglecting the puppies, I would have been out of pocket. I honestly don't understand how people can breed well, and still make money. It never occurred to me that I would make money from any of my litters. I bred because I wanted some more working terriers for myself, and what cemented in my plans was the fact that I live in a very farm-y area and have a lot of people interested in working terriers (and working BC's). The breeders of my foundation dog and bitch had stopped breeding by the time I decided I wanted another working dog but were happy to stand-by and offered me a lot of help, especially when it came to the health testing.

It's mindblowing to me how people can actually make money breeding from dogs. I know JRTs aren't exactly an expensive puppy, but even if I bred my Doberman and sold her puppies for approx. £700, I would have to cut a lot of corners to make any money.


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> Is that what you're going to say to potential purchasers of your pups when they ask who is Dad?
> 
> £150 is ridiculous. I was paying more than that twenty five years ago for the services of a good stud dog and petrol and accommodation costs to take my bitch to the best dog.
> 
> You can argue and justify until you're blue in the face. Everything about what you've done is wrong.
> 
> Will you be guaranteeing to take back any pup you have bred at any point in it's life? Could you tell us on with what your pups have been wormed and when they've been wormed and what worming programme Mum was on during her pregnancy? (Without Googling it that is).


You are a very patronising person.
You assume that because I have bred one litter that I know nothing about it at all, even what to worm them on!
Actually I have had a litter before from the rescue dog I told you about.
I am good friends with another breeder, who helped me with whelping, and has given me lots of sound advice.


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> You are a very patronising person.
> You assume that because I have bred one litter that I know nothing about it at all, even what to worm them on!
> Actually I have had a litter before from the rescue dog I told you about.
> I am good friends with another breeder, who helped me with whelping, and has given me lots of sound advice.


You bred from a rescue dog?

Oh, you've really gone up in my estimation.

You rescue one bitch and use her to produce five or six more? Well done. What was the point rescuing a dog and then breeding more?

You're an idiot. Maybe misguided, motivated by money but, nevertheless, an idiot.


----------



## SingingWhippet

caz58 said:


> Actually I have had a litter before from the *rescue dog* I told you about.


Now why doesn't that surprise me?


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> Is that what you're going to say to potential purchasers of your pups when they ask who is Dad?
> 
> £150 is ridiculous. I was paying more than that twenty five years ago for the services of a good stud dog and petrol and accommodation costs to take my bitch to the best dog.
> 
> You can argue and justify until you're blue in the face. Everything about what you've done is wrong.
> 
> Will you be guaranteeing to take back any pup you have bred at any point in it's life? Could you tell us on with what your pups have been wormed and when they've been wormed and what worming programme Mum was on during her pregnancy? (Without Googling it that is).


Potential purchasers can see the five generation pedigree, and will have their own registration certificate. The person who asked me the name of the stud dog was not a potential purchaser.


----------



## Rafa

Didn't you say that bitch was a Staffy cross?

45% of all unwanted dogs in rescue are Staffies or crosses and you took one, then added to the numbers.

It's because of people like you, out to make a fast buck, that this Country has such a problem with unwanted dogs.

Seriously. Is there something wrong with you, apart from your obvious greed?


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> You bred from a rescue dog?
> 
> Oh, you've really gone up in my estimation.
> 
> You rescue one bitch and use her to produce five or six more? Well done. What was the point rescuing a dog and then breeding more?
> 
> You're an idiot. Maybe misguided, motivated by money but, nevertheless, an idiot.


Did you not read the post I sent you yesterday?!!
SHE WAS ALREADY PREGNANT.


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> Didn't you say that bitch was a Staffy cross?
> 
> 45% of all unwanted dogs in rescue are Staffies or crosses and you took one, then added to the numbers.
> 
> It's because of people like you, out to make a fast buck, that this Country has such a problem with unwanted dogs.
> 
> Seriously. Is there something wrong with you, apart from your obvious greed?


READ THE POST AGAIN SWEETY!!!!!!


----------



## StormyThai

I'm always suspicious of breeders that omit the dogs names when asked...if everything was above board then why the secrecy?


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Did you not read the post I sent you yesterday?!!
> SHE WAS ALREADY PREGNANT.


Bet you still sold the pups and made a lovely profit out of it too...


----------



## RottieRubysMum

Meezey said:


> Bet you still sold the pups and made a lovely profit out of it too...


She probably thought it was some kind of sale, 5 for the price of 1. Disgusting.


----------



## caz58

SingingWhippet said:


> Now why doesn't that surprise me?


OMG you haven`t read the entire conversation either. I repeat
SHE WAS ALREADY PREGNANT!!!!


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> Bet you still sold the pups and made a lovely profit out of it too...


This is getting stupid. No I couldn`t find homes for them all. I tried my best. It was 24 years ago!!


----------



## caz58

RottieRubysMum said:


> She probably thought it was some kind of sale, 5 for the price of 1. Disgusting.


You really need to read whats been said in previous posts before you shoot your mouth off.


----------



## RottieRubysMum

caz58 said:


> This is getting stupid. No I couldn`t find homes for them all. I tried my best. It was 24 years ago!!


And you didn't learn from that experience and decide not to mess with lives?


----------



## RottieRubysMum

caz58 said:


> You really need to read whats been said in previous posts before you shoot your mouth off.


What I said still stands, bet you loved it when you saw a pregnant dog for adoption, pound signs showing up in your greedy eyes.


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> This is getting stupid. No I couldn`t find homes for them all. I tried my best. It was 24 years ago!!


Well you chose to come on here and in your first post take a pop at a member ( luckily for you she isn't a member any more ) and announce how you bred your bitch to make money and plan to again... Stupid you say? Yep...


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> SHE WAS ALREADY PREGNANT.


How convenient


----------



## StormyThai

I don't know any reputable rescues that would rehome a pregnant bitch AND let the adopter sell/rehome the pups


----------



## MerlinsMum

caz58 said:


> OMG you haven`t read the entire conversation either. I repeat
> SHE WAS ALREADY PREGNANT!!!!


Give her the benefit of the doubt. It was 24 years ago, when there wasn't the crisis in rescue there is now, with every tom dick & harry breeding from their pet dogs to make a bit on the side. I expect they all found decent homes, as there were more genuine dog lovers around then, who took on dogs because they loved dogs, and didn't view them as pound signs.

BTW caz58... what happened to them? did you keep in touch with the new owners? did any end up being rehomed?


----------



## Meezey

MerlinsMum said:


> Give her the benefit of the doubt. It was 24 years ago, when there wasn't the crisis in rescue there is now, with every tom dick & harry breeding from their pet dogs to make a bit on the side. I expect they all found decent homes, as there were more genuine dog lovers around then, who took on dogs because they loved dogs, and didn't view them as pound signs.
> 
> BTW caz58... what happened to them? did you keep in touch with the new owners? did any end up being rehomed?


She said she couldn't find homes for them all so hate to think....


----------



## caz58

She was found running on a main road. I made every effort to trace her owner, by giving a description to the dog pound, the police etc. Her owners never came forward for her. I didn`t know she was pregnant until she started showing obvious signs, and by then it was too late to have them aborted and get her spayed. I tried my best to get them homes. I kept a one (and before you ask it was a dog), and two of my friends had one. I tried advertising the other three as "free to good home" but I couldn`t home them. They ended up in a rescue.


----------



## caz58

And I had her spayed.


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> She was found running on a main road. I made every effort to trace her owner, by giving a description to the dog pound, the police etc. Her owners never came forward for her. I didn`t know she was pregnant until she started showing obvious signs, and by then it was too late to have them aborted and get her spayed. I tried my best to get them homes. I kept a one (and before you ask it was a dog), and two of my friends had one. I tried advertising the other three as "free to good home" but I couldn`t home them. They ended up in a rescue.


So will your pups end up in rescue if you can't find them home? Or homes fall through or peoples circumstances change and they can't keep them?


----------



## caz58

Meezey said:


> So will your pups end up in rescue if you can't find them home? Or homes fall through or peoples circumstances change and they can't keep them?


No


----------



## StormyThai

Ahh, you took in a stray. That makes more sense...I do hope you have a solid waiting list whenever you breed in future!


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> She was found running on a main road. I made every effort to trace her owner, by giving a description to the dog pound, the police etc. Her owners never came forward for her. I didn`t know she was pregnant until she started showing obvious signs, and by then it was too late to have them aborted and get her spayed. I tried my best to get them homes. I kept a one (and before you ask it was a dog), and two of my friends had one. I tried advertising the other three as "free to good home" but I couldn`t home them. They ended up in a rescue.


They ended up in rescue. Yet, you still decided to go ahead and breed more dogs. According to you, you plan to breed yet more.

Do you really wonder why we have an issue with you?

For unscrupulous breeders, there is money to be made from dogs. For conscientious breeders, there isn't. We all know into which category you come.

It's very clear you think you're right. Everything we've said to you is a waste of energy.

It's a matter for your conscience now. I wouldn't want to be you.


----------



## caz58

StormyThai said:


> Ahh, you took in a stray. That makes more sense...I do hope you have a solid waiting list whenever you breed in future!





Sweety said:


> They ended up in rescue. Yet, you still decided to go ahead and breed more dogs. According to you, you plan to breed yet more.
> 
> Do you really wonder why we have an issue with you?
> 
> For unscrupulous breeders, there is money to be made from dogs. For conscientious breeders, there isn't. We all know into which category you come.
> 
> It's very clear you think you're right. Everything we've said to you is a waste of energy.
> 
> It's a matter for your conscience now. I wouldn't want to be you.


I`m still waiting to find out why so called conscientious breeders claim not to make any money!!
So far, no one has given me a satisfactory reply.
I understand that health checks in some breeds cost a lot of money.
But microchipping, worming, vaccinations, registering, whelping box etc does not.
Vets bills in an emergency can run into thousands for a large breed I agree, but these are all things that a breeder weighs up, and if the bitch has no trouble whelping, and things go smoothly, then the conscientious breeder still makes a profit.
Why is everyone trying to make out that they don`t make any money from it. Are you all ashamed to admit it.
Who should breed dogs for pets then? No one??
Should they all be bred as show dogs or working dogs?
There is a lot of snobbery on here, and I just take issue with the fact that very few will even admit that they make any money at all.
Whether they put the money back into the breed, or use it for an expensive stud dog, or stay in overnight accommodation, or use it as an entrance fee to the next show, they are, somewhere along the line, in profit.
Very well bred dogs, such as have been referred to on this thread can go for thousands, not a couple of hundred.
I just want people to admit that they do make a profit, thats all.
You can attack my reasons for breeding my dog all you want.
At least I am honest.


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I`m still waiting to find out why so called conscientious breeders claim not to make any money!!
> So far, no one has given me a satisfactory reply.
> I understand that health checks in some breeds cost a lot of money.
> But microchipping, worming, vaccinations, registering, whelping box etc does not.
> Vets bills in an emergency can run into thousands for a large breed I agree, but these are all things that a breeder weighs up, and if the bitch has no trouble whelping, and things go smoothly, then the conscientious breeder still makes a profit.
> Why is everyone trying to make out that they don`t make any money from it. Are you all ashamed to admit it.
> Who should breed dogs for pets then? No one??
> Should they all be bred as show dogs or working dogs?
> There is a lot of snobbery on here, and I just take issue with the fact that very few will even admit that they make any money at all.
> Whether they put the money back into the breed, or use it for an expensive stud dog, or stay in overnight accommodation, or use it as an entrance fee to the next show, they are, somewhere along the line, in profit.
> Very well bred dogs, such as have been referred to on this thread can go for thousands, not a couple of hundred.
> I just want people to admit that they do make a profit, thats all.
> You can attack my reasons for breeding my dog all you want.
> At least I am honest.


I don't breed! So don't make profit from my dogs in any shape or form! I chose not too, have great dogs, with health tested, DNA tested, temperament tested ( officially temperament tested by and independent qualified assessor) parents, my dogs are fit and healthy and do fairly well in the show ring so are excellent examples of the breed ( again independent qualified persons let's me know it is the case), but first and for most are pets who are with me for life and spoilt rotten. I could breed, I could make a "profit" as I have one breed I could ask a lot of money for, I could produce some fantastic pets for people but I won't, my bitch got spayed on Friday. I have no reason to breed as their are plenty others out there who do it already and I won't add to that, I will recommend maybe two breeders in my breed who I consider ethical, I most certainly would not put my bitch at risk to line my own pockets, my dogs are part of my family and I would not risk them for my own gain.
If I needed more money I'd get another job I would not risk my bitches health and welfare to make me money ( btw hope you are declaring your income from them to the taxman).
Why do think its such a great thing that you are honest? Honest about being unethical? You bred your bitch to make money again you can throw other people under the bus trying to justify it, but to me you be on my lowest of low level in the breeder stakes breeding purely for your own greed. There are millions of pet dogs bred you only added yours to the mix to make yourself money! You seem so proud of the fact you are honest about using you family pet as a cash cow, I personally find it extremely sad that you think its perfectly okay to use your dog!

There is no snobbery involved its just pretty disgusting to think someone would use their pet as a money spinner.


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Do you breed just to make money?


I breed because I enjoy it...plain and simple.

I breed healthy puppies which are brought up in my sitting room from health tested parents. I travel miles for a stud dog who I consider the best choice for my girl, I sleep downstairs next to the whelping box for two weeks, worming programme for Mum and pups rigorously carried out....no flea treatment because non of my dogs have fleas!

I'm a member of the ABS ....I know some people don't rate it, but having had a home visit recently and passed with flying colours, I actually do. In fact when the assesor left I felt like I'd been through the wringer!

One thing makes me slightly different to what appears to be the accepted.....I don't show or compete, but does this make me a byb?

I don't actually make a profit either when all things are considered, just maybe get back what it costs to keep girls and puppies.


----------



## Darth

ouesi said:


> I would ask again, how is what you are producing different than what already exists in shelters and rescue?
> As below


In the real world not everyone wants an adult from rescue.....commendable though it is.

I've had a rescue in the past and so have other members of my family, but every one of the rescues have had issues.
Some people have the experience to deal with the problems, but others don't and want to raise a puppy in their own way.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I breed because I enjoy it...plain and simple.
> 
> I breed healthy puppies which are brought up in my sitting room from health tested parents. I travel miles for a stud dog who I consider the best choice for my girl, I sleep downstairs next to the whelping box for two weeks, worming programme for Mum and pups rigorously carried out....no flea treatment because non of my dogs have fleas!
> 
> I'm a member of the ABS ....I know some people don't rate it, but having had a home visit recently and passed with flying colours, I actually do. In fact when the assesor left I felt like I'd been through the wringer!
> 
> One thing makes me slightly different to what appears to be the accepted.....I don't show or compete, but does this make me a byb?
> 
> I don't actually make a profit either when all things are considered, just maybe get back what it costs to keep girls and puppies.


I wouldn't buy a puppy from you as you don't work or show them ( the dogs I have now are the only ones I've ever owned who are shown) but I like to be able to see the lines, see their temperaments and health of what's behind my dogs and what the breeder breeds for, I like to know why they are having litters.

How many litters do you have and what breed? Where do your bitches live?


----------



## RottieRubysMum

I don't think it's snobbery, I believe, despite having fantastic facilities and doing the very best for your dogs, you may still be part of the problem, rather than the solution if you are breeding a breed that is being heavily over bred, but then again, you have to look at breed longevity, so by all means keep your line going and healthy, if they are an amazing standard of the breed and only breeding for a full waiting list, but breeding willy nilly for pets only, in certain breeds, can add to the problem.


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> In the real world not everyone wants an adult from rescue.....commendable though it is.


There are puppies in rescue all the time.
On this very thread caz58 has said she turned her puppies in to rescue because she couldn't find homes. We got a pure bred great dane puppy at 8 weeks from rescue.

And many people who say they don't want an adult from rescue are just misinformed. Often getting a well-vetted adult from a responsible rescue is so much easier than a puppy. No potty training, no chewing phase, no teenager stages to deal with. Rescues are getting better and better and thus providing better and better trained dogs, vetting homes better, and make themselves better resources for owners.



Darth said:


> I've had a rescue in the past and so have other members of my family, but every one of the rescues have had issues.
> Some people have the experience to deal with the problems, but others don't and want to raise a puppy in their own way.


Oh here we go with rescues have "issues" and apparently dogs from breeders don't. 
I read posts on here every day. I read about people struggling with their dogs every day. And many of those struggling bought a puppy from a "good" breeder, yes they still struggle with all sorts of issues. From resource guarding, to reactivity, to odd fears, to sensitivities, to massive mismatches of dog's temperament to the home he/she was placed in.

So I ask you *again*. How do YOU prevent these sorts of issues? How do YOU set your puppies up for the best start in life?
There are breeders who put genuine time and effort in to these sorts of things, who look in to preparing their puppies for life in the human world by exposing them to rich, stimulating environments with lots of positive experiences with all sorts of things every day. And by watching their pups interact with new things they also thoroughly learn their puppies temperaments and what kind of home would be best for that pup. 
Recently I posted a video of a litter of puppies being fed going through a maze of all sorts of surfaces and sounds and smells and textures. These pups also already have the foundations of recall, sit, down, and wait.
A friend has a litter of Bernese Mountain Dogs on the ground and another friend has a rescue litter of dane mixes on the ground. (There are those puppies available in rescue again).
Every day my FB is filled with cool activities these pups are doing to get them prepared for life in a human world. None of which is haphazard or easy. It take planning and connections and a knowledge of puppy development. These pups will go to thoroughly vetted homes and will have support from this rescue for the life of the dog. 
This is the *work* you put in to a litter that folks are trying to explain. Health testing is the bare minimum. Being caring and responsible for the lives of these sentient creatures for their whole lives... That's caring about your dogs... Plenty of breeders health test and compete or show or both. But precious few *truly* care about the dogs and what becomes of them


----------



## StormyThai

caz58 said:


> I`m still waiting to find out why so called conscientious breeders claim not to make any money!!
> .


They don't...it really is as simple as that. Anyone that does is cutting corners, again, it's as simple as that.

No one has given you a satisfactory answer because you refuse to hear that what you did (and are planning to do again) is wrong and unethical...being honest about being unethical does not suddenly make it all above board


----------



## PawsandFeathers

If breeders did not make money they would not do it. Of course they do even if they do things propperly they have to cover the costs some how thus they make money.


----------



## Meezey

PawsandFeathers said:


> If breeders did not make money they would not do it. Of course they do even if they do things propperly they have to cover the costs some how thus they make money.


Most breeders do not make any money? So explain in your vast experience how this is the case? They do not make a profit and good breeders do not breed for profit!


----------



## Guest

PawsandFeathers said:


> *If breeders did not make money they would not do it.* Of course they do even if they do things propperly they have to cover the costs some how thus they make money.


If you're going to state something factually like the bolded, you best have something to back that up with.
So, how many breeders do you personally know who would support that statement?

Of course breeders sell their puppies for money, of course they get some money back for the pups, but done right, they're not exactly making a profit. At best they will cover expenses put in to the litter.


----------



## RottieRubysMum

I think the concept of profit and revenue is getting muddled here. As mentioned by someone before, any extra money from the sale of the pups should go back into the dogs, therefore it's not profit, it's revenue that gets transferred back into the costs.

Profit is despicable, revenue always goes back into the breed and keeps them happy and healthy.


----------



## PawsandFeathers

ouesi said:


> If you're going to state something factually like the bolded, you best have something to back that up with.
> So, how many breeders do you personally know who would support that statement?
> 
> Of course breeders sell their puppies for money, of course they get some money back for the pups, but done right, they're not exactly making a profit. At best they will cover expenses put in to the litter.


Your telling me breeders do it out of the kindness of their hearts? You have more faith then I do the ones that don't make money are the ones who have enough money all ready.


----------



## StormyThai

PawsandFeathers said:


> If breeders did not make money they would not do it. Of course they do even if they do things propperly they have to cover the costs some how thus they make money.


None of the ethical breeders I support make money, in fact if they actually started to add up every single cost they find they they actually lose money on many litters...
Ethical breeders breed for many reasons, making money is not one of them!


----------



## RottieRubysMum

PawsandFeathers said:


> Your telling me breeders do it out of the kindness of their hearts? You have more faith then I do the ones that don't make money are the ones who have enough money all ready.


Well, you shouldn't be breeding in the first place if you don't have enough money to do it. Don't rely on your dogs to bring you income or fund their own breeding.

It's just like anything else, if you can't afford it, don't do it.


----------



## Guest

PawsandFeathers said:


> *Your telling me breeders do it out of the kindness of their hearts?* You have more faith then I do the ones that don't make money are the ones who have enough money all ready.


Please point to where I have said the bolded. I haven't. 
Nor have you answered my question about your basis for making the factual statement you did above. Nice deflection 

And yes, honestly, a lot of breeders start out with a lot of money *because* there is little to no profit in breeding "right". You have to have the money to loose.


----------



## PawsandFeathers

Do ethical breeders list their costs in your receipt on purchase?? Are they willing to discuss the costs of their experience of breeding? 

I have yet to see some one add up the costs of breeding and finale price so whose to say they don't?


----------



## Guest

Prowl said:


> Are they willing to discuss the costs of their experience of breeding?


Yes, they are.

Which you would know if you were familiar with ethical, responsible breeding practices. Which you aren't. But that doesn't stop you from making statements like they're fact about how breeders operate does it? I see the MO hasn't changed much. Hello Prowl....


----------



## Meezey

PawsandFeathers said:


> Your telling me breeders do it out of the kindness of their hearts? You have more faith then I do the ones that don't make money are the ones who have enough money all ready.


You really haven't a clue have you? So what makes you say this? Do quantify your statement or is it just the normal Prowl posting random statements about things she has no idea about? Have enough money already right okay. That's really factual and where did you get all the information to make this statement?


----------



## Meezey

PawsandFeathers said:


> Do ethical breeders list their costs in your receipt on purchase?? Are they willing to discuss the costs of their experience of breeding?
> 
> I have yet to see some one add up the costs of breeding and finale price so whose to say they don't?


Yes good breeders do, and have no problem in doing so, its also hard to hide when puppy purchasers know those costs also! Then if you research to find a good ethical breeder rather than the closest with puppies available right now, with no waiting list you'd know this.


----------



## simplysardonic

PawsandFeathers said:


> If breeders did not make money they would not do it. Of course they do even if they do things propperly they have to cover the costs some how thus they make money.


*sigh*

'Covering costs' is not 'making money'.

And actually, the ethical breeders I know of are quite transparent about their costs


----------



## StormyThai

PawsandFeathers said:


> Do ethical breeders list their costs in your receipt on purchase?? Are they willing to discuss the costs of their experience of breeding?
> 
> I have yet to see some one add up the costs of breeding and finale price so whose to say they don't?


Yeah you might wanna read the first post of this thread before you make yourself look very silly indeed...Ethical breeders ARE transparent about their costs, in fact ethical breeders are transparent across the board because they have nothing to hide.
If a breeder is "cagey" about questions then that *should *raise huge red flags


----------



## Rafa

PawsandFeathers said:


> Your telling me breeders do it out of the kindness of their hearts? You have more faith then I do the ones that don't make money are the ones who have enough money all ready.


The point is that if someone breeds a litter, say because they show, and do everything right from before the mating even takes place and end up making a small profit, there is nothing wrong about that. It doesn't often happen, but it's not wrong, IMO.

What is very, very wrong is breeding from a non health tested bitch, using a non health tested dog, purely and simply to make money, which is what Catz58 has proudly admitted to.

And Prowl, your above post doesn't even make any sense. Why bale into a discussion on a subject about which you have no knowledge or experience whatsoever?


----------



## miljar

Just a question.
If you breed a litter, with all health testing done on the parents, then surely you have a very desirable bunch of puppies for sale.
Why, then, does everybody say that they have either lost money, or just broken even? 
Whatever the price range, of the type of puppies you breed, surely you would be at the top end of it?


----------



## Rafa

miljar said:


> Just a question.
> If you breed a litter, with all health testing done on the parents, then surely you have a very desirable bunch of puppies for sale.
> Why, then, does everybody say that they have either lost money, or just broken even?
> Whatever the price range, of the type of puppies you breed, surely you would be at the top end of it?


Well, there's the cost of the stud fee, travelling expenses to visit the stud and sometimes overnight accommodation. There can be vet bills for Mum during her pregnancy, including a scan and sometimes, unfortunately, the cost of a C Section. You have to take into account the constant washing of bedding for Mum and her pups, extra heating to keep pups warm day and night, vet checks for Mum and pups and good quality food and worming programme for the pups. The fee to K. C. Register the pups too.

There are often other unforeseen expenses and not all bitches have huge litters. There may only be a couple of pups in a litter.


----------



## miljar

Sweety said:


> Well, there's the cost of the stud fee, travelling expenses to visit the stud and sometimes overnight accommodation. There can be vet bills for Mum during her pregnancy, including a scan and sometimes, unfortunately, the cost of a C Section. You have to take into account the constant washing of bedding for Mum and her pups, extra heating to keep pups warm day and night, vet checks for Mum and pups and good quality food and worming programme for the pups. The fee to K. C. Register the pups too.
> 
> There are often other unforeseen expenses and not all bitches have huge litters. There may only be a couple of pups in a litter.


Thank you for the reply, and I knew I was piling variable onto variable when I asked.
The expense you list would apply to any litter though.


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> I wouldn't buy a puppy from you as you don't work or show them ( the dogs I have now are the only ones I've ever owned who are shown) but I like to be able to see the lines, see their temperaments and health of what's behind my dogs and what the breeder breeds for, I like to know why they are having litters.
> 
> How many litters do you have and what breed? Where do your bitches live?


I'm pleased you wouldn't want to buy a puppy from me, because you wouldn't get one! I don't like arrogance and don't think there's any need for it.

I wont be answering your questions as I don't need to be judged by you, but what I will say is, there is absolutely no reason you couldn't see lines, temperaments and health behind my puppies, it's all there on the KC health checker.
It's people like you with your attitude that gets good show people bad names!
If you knew anything at all about dogs and breeding you'd know there isn't enough show or competition people breeding to meet the needs of the average dog owner who wants a pet, its an absolute necessity to encourage good pet breeders.


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> If you knew anything at all about dogs and breeding you'd know there isn't enough show or competition people breeding to meet the needs of the average dog owner who wants a pet, its an absolute necessity to encourage good pet breeders.


What?!
Every ethical show breeder I know is producing primarily pets. For one, you're not going to produce an entire litter of show quality pups - anyone saying they will is plain lying. But secondly, even in show dogs, the most important thing is to produce great pets. Hence the focus on early experiences, early stimulation, and temperament I keep pointing out (and you keep ignoring).


----------



## Darth

ouesi said:


> There are puppies in rescue all the time.
> On this very thread caz58 has said she turned her puppies in to rescue because she couldn't find homes. We got a pure bred great dane puppy at 8 weeks from rescue.
> 
> And many people who say they don't want an adult from rescue are just misinformed. Often getting a well-vetted adult from a responsible rescue is so much easier than a puppy. No potty training, no chewing phase, no teenager stages to deal with. Rescues are getting better and better and thus providing better and better trained dogs, vetting homes better, and make themselves better resources for owners.
> 
> Oh here we go with rescues have "issues" and apparently dogs from breeders don't.
> I read posts on here every day. I read about people struggling with their dogs every day. And many of those struggling bought a puppy from a "good" breeder, yes they still struggle with all sorts of issues. From resource guarding, to reactivity, to odd fears, to sensitivities, to massive mismatches of dog's temperament to the home he/she was placed in.
> 
> So I ask you *again*. How do YOU prevent these sorts of issues? How do YOU set your puppies up for the best start in life?
> There are breeders who put genuine time and effort in to these sorts of things, who look in to preparing their puppies for life in the human world by exposing them to rich, stimulating environments with lots of positive experiences with all sorts of things every day. And by watching their pups interact with new things they also thoroughly learn their puppies temperaments and what kind of home would be best for that pup.
> Recently I posted a video of a litter of puppies being fed going through a maze of all sorts of surfaces and sounds and smells and textures. These pups also already have the foundations of recall, sit, down, and wait.
> A friend has a litter of Bernese Mountain Dogs on the ground and another friend has a rescue litter of dane mixes on the ground. (There are those puppies available in rescue again).
> Every day my FB is filled with cool activities these pups are doing to get them prepared for life in a human world. None of which is haphazard or easy. It take planning and connections and a knowledge of puppy development. These pups will go to thoroughly vetted homes and will have support from this rescue for the life of the dog.
> This is the *work* you put in to a litter that folks are trying to explain. Health testing is the bare minimum. Being caring and responsible for the lives of these sentient creatures for their whole lives... That's caring about your dogs... Plenty of breeders health test and compete or show or both. But precious few *truly* care about the dogs and what becomes of them


I think you've got your reply mixed up with one for someone else?

I don't think I elaborated on the way I brought my puppies up......

Geez this forum is so full of people who don't have a clue and pretend they do!


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> I don't think I elaborated on the way I brought my puppies up......


No, you have not, which is why I asked


----------



## Rafa

Darth said:


> I'm pleased you wouldn't want to buy a puppy from me, because you wouldn't get one! I don't like arrogance and don't think there's any need for it.
> 
> I wont be answering your questions as I don't need to be judged by you, but what I will say is, there is absolutely no reason you couldn't see lines, temperaments and health behind my puppies, it's all there on the KC health checker.
> It's people like you with your attitude that gets good show people bad names!
> If you knew anything at all about dogs and breeding you'd know there isn't enough show or competition people breeding to meet the needs of the average dog owner who wants a pet, its an absolute necessity to encourage good pet breeders.


Well, not true really.

When I was breeding, I was more than happy to let my pups go to either a show home or a pet home. So long as it was an excellent home for the pup, it didn't matter to me.


----------



## Darth

ouesi said:


> No, you have not, which is why I asked


I don't need to justify how I bring my puppies up to you......suffice to say on inspection by the ASB inspector the first thing she said was, the amount of feedback they received and the quality of it was among the best they had received for a breeder!


----------



## StormyThai

Darth said:


> I don't need to justify how I bring my puppies up to you......suffice to say on inspection by the ASB inspector the first thing she said was, the amount of feedback they received and the quality of it was among the best they had received for a breeder!


Do you want a gold star with that?
It was your statement that there isn't enough show people breeding pets that has come into question


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> I don't need to justify how I bring my puppies up to you......suffice to say on inspection by the ASB inspector the first thing she said was, the amount of feedback they received and the quality of it was among the best they had received for a breeder!


I don't know that I would be bragging about the comments from an inspector of any kind, but anyway...
I wasn't asking you to justify anything. The folks I know who breed with care are more than proud to share how they raise and prepare their puppies for family life.
This morning at 3 days old my berner breeder friend posted pictures of what she's doing with the pups as far as sensory experiences. No justifications for anything. Just terrific breeding and puppy raising practices that she's proud to share.


----------



## Dogloverlou

Darth said:


> I'm pleased you wouldn't want to buy a puppy from me, because you wouldn't get one! I don't like arrogance and don't think there's any need for it.
> 
> I wont be answering your questions as I don't need to be judged by you, but what I will say is, there is absolutely no reason you couldn't see lines, temperaments and health behind my puppies, it's all there on the KC health checker.
> It's people like you with your attitude that gets good show people bad names!
> If you knew anything at all about dogs and breeding you'd know there isn't enough show or competition people breeding to meet the needs of the average dog owner who wants a pet, its an absolute necessity to encourage good pet breeders.


What breed do you own out of interest?

And why do you think there isn't enough show or competition homes breeding for the 'average' owner who just wants a pet? Very few litters will have 'top' dogs in even from the best breeding in the world, and these pups go on to be much loved and adored family pets so not quite understanding what you mean there.


----------



## Rafa

miljar said:


> Thank you for the reply, and I knew I was piling variable onto variable when I asked.
> The expense you list would apply to any litter though.


Well, the expenses I listed wouldn't really apply to a Backyard Breeder, unfortunately.

Most will mate their bitch to 'the dog next door', without any thought given to what pups are going to be the result. They just want the money.

I think travelling long distances wouldn't happen and, sadly, many pups are not properly raised, wormed, weaned or socialised.

Pups will go off to their new homes without any kind of a vet check and, of course, no health tests on the Parents will have been done and paid for.


----------



## Guest

Dogloverlou said:


> What breed do you own out of interest?


IIRC Darth breeds labs 
You know, a very rare breed that there is definitely a shortage of in both pet and show and working types


----------



## Dogloverlou

ouesi said:


> IIRC Darth breeds labs
> You know, a very rare breed that there is definitely a shortage of in both pet and show and working types


Oh gosh.

As if there is any more need to breed 'just' good pets when every Tom, Dick & Harry is doing the same in such a numerically strong breed. Really not seeing how that makes Darth breeding for the 'average' pet home unique.....
I bet the majority of Lab registrations every year are bred from average dogs for the 'average' home.


----------



## Rafa

ouesi said:


> IIRC Darth breeds labs
> You know, a very rare breed that there is definitely a shortage of in both pet and show and working types


I don't really think the World is desperate for more Labs.

I feel uneasy about anyone who says they breed pups because they enjoy doing it. I wonder how much fun the bitch is having?


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I'm pleased you wouldn't want to buy a puppy from me, because you wouldn't get one! I don't like arrogance and don't think there's any need for it.
> 
> I wont be answering your questions as I don't need to be judged by you, but what I will say is, there is absolutely no reason you couldn't see lines, temperaments and health behind my puppies, it's all there on the KC health checker.
> It's people like you with your attitude that gets good show people bad names!
> If you knew anything at all about dogs and breeding you'd know there isn't enough show or competition people breeding to meet the needs of the average dog owner who wants a pet, its an absolute necessity to encourage good pet breeders.


I don't show  You put the question out there you asked people to judge you....


----------



## Guest

Sweety said:


> I feel uneasy about anyone who says they breed pups because they enjoy doing it.


I can see enjoying puppies.
I dan definitely see finding their development fascinating and wanting to be involved in it.
But to breed "just" for having puppies around is for sure a red flag for me too.

There are so many ways to enjoy puppies that don't involve having to create more dogs in an already desperate overpopulation crisis. Volunteer at a shelter, volunteer as a puppy raiser for a guide dog facility, get involved with other breeders and give them a night off... There's all sorts of options.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I'm pleased you wouldn't want to buy a puppy from me, because you wouldn't get one! I don't like arrogance and don't think there's any need for it.
> 
> I wont be answering your questions as I don't need to be judged by you, but what I will say is, there is absolutely no reason you couldn't see lines, temperaments and health behind my puppies, it's all there on the KC health checker.
> It's people like you with your attitude that gets good show people bad names!
> If you knew anything at all about dogs and breeding you'd know there isn't enough show or competition people breeding to meet the needs of the average dog owner who wants a pet, its an absolute necessity to encourage good pet breeders.


You breed labs? Labs!!!!!! Yeah because of course there just aren't enough lab breeders....


----------



## Darth

StormyThai said:


> Do you want a gold star with that?
> It was your statement that there isn't enough show people breeding pets that has come into question [/QUOTE
> 
> Oh yes please....I quite like gold stars
> 
> It's impossible for only show and competitive breeders to breed the amount of pet puppies that are in demand.
> 
> I think it's better to educate rather than berate.
> 
> Being nasty to people who've bred a litter without the correct tests etc isn't, in my opinion, very conducive to changing what they will do the next time they breed.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Geez this forum is so full of people who don't have a clue and pretend they do!


Yep and you time and time again prove this point!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> It's impossible for only show and competitive breeders to breed the amount of pet puppies that are in demand.


What the actual hell?! Did you really just say that?
Rescues and shelters are FULL to the brim with lovely labs needing homes!


----------



## Darth

Where did you get labs from??


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> Where did you get labs from??


Who are you asking?
I don't have any labs, neither does Meezey, nor StormiThai, nor Sweety....


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I don't need to justify how I bring my puppies up to you......suffice to say on inspection by the ASB inspector the first thing she said was, the amount of feedback they received and the quality of it was among the best they had received for a breeder!


Not exactly sure what the ASB is but so many ethical good breeders left the ABS you know the Assured Breeder Scheme because so many licenced breeders ( aka puppy farmers) signed up to it....


----------



## Darth

ouesi said:


> Who are you asking?
> I don't have any labs, neither does Meezey, nor StormiThai, nor Sweety....


Me neither....I've never owned a Labrador in my life!

What you don't know you obviously make up.....


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Me neither....I've never owned a Labrador in my life!
> 
> What you don't know you obviously make up.....


Rather like yourself now seriously what is the ASB? And when did I start showing?????


----------



## Spellweaver

caz58 said:


> I.
> Whether they put the money back into the breed, or use it for an expensive stud dog, or stay in overnight accommodation, or use it as an entrance fee to the next show, they are, somewhere along the line, in profit.


You really have no idea, do you? By the time a show person breeds their bitch, the money they have spent showing her and attracting a good stud over two or three years will already be in the thousands. Entry fees for one dog are anything between £25 and £30 per class and when you add on petrol and food costs showing one bitch can easily costs £100 a time. We were averaging a show a month and many people show more often than that. With outgoings like that, you can easily see that any money made on the litter will not be a proft ready to spend on the next show or the next stud dog; it will merely be lessening the loss already sustained. And that's before you even start to add up the cost of hip scoring (and elbow scoring for some breeds), health tests, vet fees, stud fee, unpaid time off work to look after the bitch in the latter part of her pregnancy and to bring up the litter, feeding the litter, more vet fees, registration fees, microchip fees and much much more.


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> Me neither....I've never owned a Labrador in my life!
> 
> What you don't know you obviously make up.....


What have I made up, I said IIRC which means "if I recall correctly". Obviously my recall is flawed. Spaniels then, another very "rare" breed.
What's your point anyway other than deflecting perfectly legitimate questions and simply attacking others instead. Bored now that sleepinglion is no longer here for you to pick on?


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Rather like yourself now seriously what is the ASB? And when did I start showing?????


If a typo is all you can find to argue about you should really give up, it's obviously past your bed time


----------



## Meezey

ouesi said:


> What have I made up, I said IIRC which means "if I recall correctly". Obviously my recall is flawed. Spaniels then, another very "rare" breed.
> What's your point anyway other than deflecting perfectly legitimate questions and simply attacking others instead. Bored now that sleepinglion is no longer here for you to pick on?


Tut now playing victim because I said I wouldn't have a puppy!

Seriously why do people ask questions then spit their dummies out? I thought Darth wanted people to tell them if we considered them a byb or puppy farmer, I for one am not willing to make that call without knowing all the facts....


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> If a typo is all you can find to argue about you should really give up, it's obviously past your bed time


Not arguing, you amuse me, ask a question then have a tantrum when you don't like the answers.


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Not arguing, you amuse me, ask a question then have a tantrum when you don't like the answers.


Nope no tantrum....I'm just a realist not an idealist.


----------



## Dogloverlou

So what breed do you own then Darth?


----------



## Rafa

Darth said:


> If a typo is all you can find to argue about you should really give up, it's obviously past your bed time


You know, you did ask us all whether we considered you to be a BYB. None of us actually said yes.

Some of us asked you a few questions and you lose it and begin insulting people.

What exactly are you breeding because I too thought it was Labradors.

Why are you so defensive about what you're doing?


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Nope no tantrum....I'm just a realist not an idealist.


So why not answer the questions? Remember the comments about good ethical breeders being transparent? What breed do you have? How many litters a year, and where do you keep your bitches? With that information I'm sure your question would be answered to if we think you are a byb or a puppy farmer.


----------



## Darth

Sweety said:


> You know, you did ask us all whether we considered you to be a BYB. None of us actually said yes.
> 
> Some of us asked you a few questions and you lose it and begin insulting people.
> 
> What exactly are you breeding because I too thought it was Labradors.
> 
> Why are you so defensive about what you're doing?


I'm not defensive, I just don't see why it matters...

I gave you all facts and asked a question.

I didnt ask anyone to buy a puppy from me and didn't expect to be berated for saying I don't think show or competitive breeders can or do breed enough pet puppies.

As for picking up on a typo.....it's just childish!


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I'm not defensive, I just don't see why it matters...
> 
> I gave you all facts and asked a question.
> 
> I didnt ask anyone to buy a puppy from me and didn't expect to be berated for saying I don't think show or competitive breeders can or do breed enough pet puppies.
> 
> As for picking up on a typo.....it's just childish!


Berated? Oh you are having a laugh! My choice is my choice, get over yourself you are acting like a child, crying in to your milk because I wouldn't have a puppy from you! You are doing great on trying to deflect, so what is your breed, how many litters and where are your bitches kept.Good ethical breeders are transparent....... Enough said.

Berated god what a drama queen...


----------



## Guest

@Darth , this is what you asked:


Darth said:


> Now......does this make me a byb or puppy farmer?


To which I asked how is what you are producing different than what is already available in rescue and shelters all over the nation?
I did not call you a BYB or puppy farmer, I asked a perfectly reasonable question. A question you can't seem to answer. 
So IMHO if you can't answer how your pups are any different, then you are part of the problem of dog overpopulation - call that what you will.


----------



## Rafa

Darth said:


> I'm not defensive, I just don't see why it matters...
> 
> I gave you all facts and asked a question.
> 
> I didnt ask anyone to buy a puppy from me and didn't expect to be berated for saying I don't think show or competitive breeders can or do breed enough pet puppies.
> 
> As for picking up on a typo.....it's just childish!


I don't see where I picked up on a typo.

You chose to join this discussion, asking the rest of us whether we would consider you to be a backyard breeder. That was your choice.

Why are you now so upset because some have asked your motives for breeding and what breed it is?

You asked us all a question. Any questions we've asked you in return have either been ignored or met with personal insults.

If you are truly a conscientious breeder, with the best motives and reasons for producing litters of pups, why do you have such a problem with responding to a few questions?


----------



## StormyThai

I haven't been nasty to anyone...


----------



## MerlinsMum

PawsandFeathers said:


> Your telling me breeders do it out of the kindness of their hearts?


Yes. Yes, they do. Really.

But then.... you've never met any breeders of this kind, have you? First a council licenced breeder who churns out puppies (as my research on your behalf discovered); then someone just breeding "their pets" for fun (and money no doubt).

I did my best to steer you in the direction of genuine and honest breeders, but I don't know why I bothered.


----------



## caz58

[/QUOTE]


Meezey said:


> btw hope you are declaring your income from them to the taxman).


----------



## caz58

It`s ok I can offset it with all the expenses


----------



## caz58

RottieRubysMum said:


> I don't think it's snobbery, I believe, despite having fantastic facilities and doing the very best for your dogs, you may still be part of the problem, rather than the solution if you are breeding a breed that is being heavily over bred, but then again, you have to look at breed longevity, so by all means keep your line going and healthy, if they are an amazing standard of the breed and only breeding for a full waitin





RottieRubysMum said:


> I don't think it's snobbery, I believe, despite having fantastic facilities and doing the very best for your dogs, you may still be part of the problem, rather than the solution if you are breeding a breed that is being heavily over bred, but then again, you have to look at breed longevity, so by all means keep your line going and healthy, if they are an amazing standard of the breed and only breeding for a full waiting list, but breeding willy nilly for pets only, in certain breeds, can add to the problem.


Yes breeders in the past have done a lot for pedigree dogs haven`t they?
Producing dogs that can hardly breathe, dogs that can`t give birth without a caesarian, and the list goes on.
This is not a dig at you, and I agree with you that there probably are breeds that are being heavily bred, but the demand is obviously there for them.
My puppies are five weeks old and I have sold four out of the five.
I have tried my best to ask all the relevant questions, and my own judgement for what it`s worth, because as we all know, people can lie.
As I have mentioned in previous posts, they are all happy, healthy and on their way to being well socialised.
They will have been wormed (although there are those on here that think mere mortals wouldn`t know how to do that.........yes I do mean you Sweetie) vaccinated and microchipped.
No, I didn`t have a full waiting list, and I may never breed from her again, but I knew I would find homes for them.
To be lumped in with puppy farmers by some members on here, after breeding five pups, is laughable.


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> Yes breeders in the past have done a lot for pedigree dogs haven`t they?
> Producing dogs that can hardly breathe, dogs that can`t give birth without a caesarian, and the list goes on.
> This is not a dig at you, and I agree with you that there probably are breeds that are being heavily bred, but the demand is obviously there for them.
> My puppies are five weeks old and I have sold four out of the five.
> I have tried my best to ask all the relevant questions, and my own judgement for what it`s worth, because as we all know, people can lie.
> As I have mentioned in previous posts, they are all happy, healthy and on their way to being well socialised.
> They will have been wormed (although there are those on here that think mere mortals wouldn`t know how to do that.........yes I do mean you Sweetie) vaccinated and microchipped.
> No, I didn`t have a full waiting list, and I may never breed from her again, but I knew I would find homes for them.
> To be lumped in with puppy farmers by some members on here, after breeding five pups, is laughable.


What have they been wormed with and when? When was Mum wormed through her pregnancy?


----------



## Dogloverlou

I don't think Darth will tell us the breed....


caz58 said:


> Yes breeders in the past have done a lot for pedigree dogs haven`t they?
> Producing dogs that can hardly breathe, dogs that can`t give birth without a caesarian, and the list goes on.
> This is not a dig at you, and I agree with you that there probably are breeds that are being heavily bred, but the demand is obviously there for them.
> My puppies are five weeks old and I have sold four out of the five.
> I have tried my best to ask all the relevant questions, and my own judgement for what it`s worth, because as we all know, people can lie.
> As I have mentioned in previous posts, they are all happy, healthy and on their way to being well socialised.
> They will have been wormed (although there are those on here that think mere mortals wouldn`t know how to do that.........yes I do mean you Sweetie) vaccinated and microchipped.
> No, I didn`t have a full waiting list, and I may never breed from her again, but I knew I would find homes for them.
> To be lumped in with puppy farmers by some members on here, after breeding five pups, is laughable.


Please say you have endorsements in place on those pups?


----------



## dogsaintdumb

I don't know a lot about Shih Tzus (if I recall correctly), but surely there is some health testing to be done for the dam/sire before breeding?


----------



## caz58

StormyThai said:


> They don't...it really is as simple as that. Anyone that does is cutting corners, again, it's as simple as that.
> 
> No one has given you a satisfactory answer because you refuse to hear that what you did (and are planning to do again) is wrong and unethical...being honest about being unethical does not suddenly make it all above board


Well maybe I will start showing my dogs, paying a fortune for a stud dog, and overnight accomodation, sell off my spare puppies to pay for it, and put it all down to expenses. Would I be an ethical breeder then??!!


----------



## dogsaintdumb

WTH, "spare puppies".


----------



## caz58

.

Please say you have endorsements in place on those pups?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do, but that`s not really worth the paper it`s printed on is it, unless someone wants to register them.


----------



## caz58

dogsaintdumb said:


> WTH, "spare puppies".


Dogs that don`t make the grade.


----------



## caz58

dogsaintdumb said:


> I don't know a lot about Shih Tzus (if I recall correctly), but surely there is some health testing to be done for the dam/sire before breeding?


No. You can check yourself on the KC website.


----------



## dogsaintdumb

No OFA or CERF? Fairly standard. All dogs have eyes and knees.  Not going to comment on that "spare puppies" definition LOL.


----------



## StormyThai

caz58 said:


> Well maybe I will start showing my dogs, paying a fortune for a stud dog, and overnight accomodation, sell off my spare puppies to pay for it, and put it all down to expenses. Would I be an ethical breeder then??!!


With that attitude, IMO no, no you would not.


----------



## caz58

dogsaintdumb said:


> WTH, "spare puppies".


I am only going on what a show breeder said on here earlier, and that was that not all puppies are suitable for showing, and they are sold to pet homes.
But apparently this doesn`t add to the dog population problem because this is ethical breeding!!


----------



## Dogloverlou

caz58 said:


> Yes, I do, but that`s not really worth the paper it`s printed on is it, unless someone wants to register them.


That's something at least. And no, while it can't stop people from breeding the dogs, it can well put those off who know unregistered puppies aren't as desirable, or don't command as high a price as registered pups.........


----------



## StormyThai

Ethical breeders (they don't have to be show breeders to be ethical) don't add to the dog population because they offer life time back up for all of their puppies. If an ethical breeder finds out that one of their puppies have ended up in rescue then they will do everything they can to get that puppy back.
Having puppies not suitable for showing does not equate to having "spare" puppies, comments like that prove I was right with my previous comment...


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> To be lumped in with puppy farmers by some members on here, after breeding five pups, is laughable.


It's all a matter of degrees though isn't it?
Just because you're not a puppy farmer doesn't make you a great breeder.
"I'm not a puppy farmer" is setting the bar pretty low if you ask me.

On the other end of the spectrum are the amazing breeders who go above and beyond in every aspect from pedigree research and selecting the best pairing to generations of health and temperament testing and proving the dogs through some independent evaluation system be it show, trials, or whatever makes sense for that breed. Then they raise puppies in enriching environments, prepare them for future homes, vet future homes, and remain involved with the dogs they produce for the life of the dog.

Then there is everything within the middle of the spectrum. Personally I like to see a breeder moving further and further towards the "awesome" end than the "not a puppy farmer" end.


----------



## Dogloverlou

caz58 said:


> I am only going on what a show breeder said on here earlier, and that was that not all puppies are suitable for showing, and they are sold to pet homes.
> But apparrently this doesn`t add to the dog population problem because this is ethical breeding!!


There seems to be this notion that show breeders don't breed pets? The very basis of most of these breeders is that their dogs go on to be first and foremost PETS. There are dodgy breeders out there of course, even some top breeders have questionable ethics. But you are largely misinformed about just what show breeders and the like _are_ breeding for.


----------



## caz58

Dogloverlou said:


> There seems to be this notion that show breeders don't breed pets? The very basis of most of these breeders is that their dogs go on to be first and foremost PETS. There are dodgy breeders out there of course, even some top breeders have questionable ethics. But you are largely misinformed about just what show breeders and the like _are_ breeding for.


Then I would be very grateful if you would enlighten me.


----------



## dogsaintdumb

Okay, so for the first time ever I just researched Shih Tzus.  Apparently PRA and renal dysplasia are two health concerns within the breed. I don't think the Kennel Club's opinion is something that should be followed religiously. The KC doesn't recognise some breeds, but they still exist. Just because it doesn't provide a list of health concerns and tests to diagnose issues doesn't mean those problems aren't to be tested for.

I don't know why that's what I'm focusing on out of this whole thread. On the plus side, I learned a little about a breed I know nothing about.


----------



## caz58

Dogloverlou said:


> That's something at least. And no, while it can't stop people from breeding the dogs, it can well put those off who know unregistered puppies aren't as desirable, or don't command as high a price as registered pups.........


The young couple who came today didn`t even know what KC registered meant! They just wanted a dog to be part of their family. And yes, I plan to keep in touch with them, and will ask them to send me regular updates of the puppies progress, as I will do with all the buyers of the pups.


----------



## dogsaintdumb

I would be concerned if a potential buyer of a dog didn't know what one of the most famous dog registries in the world was, LOL.


----------



## caz58

dogsaintdumb said:


> I would be concerned if a potential buyer of a dog didn't know what one of the most famous dog registries in the world was, LOL.


Well yes, I was a little surprised lol, but at the end of the day, if they can give the dog a loving lifetime home, then it doesn`t really matter. They just wanted a pet, for them and their small daughter.


----------



## Dogloverlou

I'd have informed them fully of what the KC is and stands for as that puts them in a more knowledgeable position for the future. I assume you went into detail about the endorsements and puppy contract and explained what those meant?

In regards to enlightening you what show breeders and the like breed for enough members have already tried to do so. They don't breed puppies with the sole aim of becoming future show dogs, but emphasis is put on breeding quality puppies from sound parents/lines with the _potential_ to go on to showing and/or sports. Health & temperament is paramount importance.


----------



## caz58

Dogloverlou said:


> I'd have informed them fully of what the KC is and stands for as that puts them in a more knowledgeable position for the future. I assume you went into detail about the endorsements and puppy contract and explained what those meant?
> 
> In regards to enlightening you what show breeders and the like breed for enough members have already tried to do so. They don't breed puppies with the sole aim of becoming future show dogs, but emphasis is put on breeding quality puppies from sound parents/lines with the _potential_ to go on to showing and/or sports. Health & temperament is paramount importance.


Yes I explained to them about the KC. I did not need to explain about the endorsements as I only put them on the female pups.


----------



## MerlinsMum

caz58 said:


> Yes I explained to them about the KC. I did not need to explain about the endorsements as I only put them on the female pups.


Well that's ok then, the owners of the male pups can stud them out as much
as they like.


----------



## caz58

MerlinsMum said:


> Well that's ok then, the owners of the male pups can stud them out as much
> as they like.


Well they could anyway!! Not everyone wants a KC registered dog! The KC say it`s ok to breed half brother and sister. They are not the "be all and end all" of dog breeding!!


----------



## caz58

StormyThai said:


> Ethical breeders (they don't have to be show breeders to be ethical) don't add to the dog population because they offer life time back up for all of their puppies. If an ethical breeder finds out that one of their puppies have ended up in rescue then they will do everything they can to get that puppy back.
> Having puppies not suitable for showing does not equate to having "spare" puppies, comments like that prove I was right with my previous comment...


Yes, well maybe I was a bit heated when I replied, but they are not the only ones that offer support, and I`m sorry I used that term.


----------



## caz58

Sweety said:


> Well, there's the cost of the stud fee, travelling expenses to visit the stud and sometimes overnight accommodation. There can be vet bills for Mum during her pregnancy, including a scan and sometimes, unfortunately, the cost of a C Section. You have to take into account the constant washing of bedding for Mum and her pups, extra heating to keep pups warm day and night, vet checks for Mum and pups and good quality food and worming programme for the pups. The fee to K. C. Register the pups too.
> 
> There are often other unforeseen expenses and not all bitches have huge litters. There may only be a couple of pups in a litter.


Lets start from the top.
Stud fees- £500?
Overnight accommodation-£100?
Vets bills during pregnancy-£200?
Scan-£25?
Washing of bedding for 10 weeks-£100?
Heating pad or heat lamp-£100?
Vet checks-£100?
Food-£200?
Worming-£50
KC registration for five pups-£80
First vaccinations for five pups-£75
Microchipping-£75
Total-£1,605

Five well bred pups at £1,500 each= £7,500
Take away £1,605= £5,895

Not included the C Section because that is not always necessary.
That`s quite a hefty amount (sorry can`t say profit on here) for your future expenses!


----------



## lorilu

caz58 said:


> Food-£200?


What kind of unrealistic figure is that? LOL! I'm guessing the rest of your figures are more than a little on the conservative side too. You aren't very realistic are you, but I think most back yard breeders aren't.

Oh, and you've forgotten about the Taxman.


----------



## caz58

lorilu said:


> What kind of unrealistic figure is that? LOL! I'm guessing the rest of your figures are more than a little on the conservative side too. You aren't very realistic are you, but I think most back yard breeders aren't.
> 
> Oh, and you've forgotten about the Taxman.


Oh yes I did didn`t I! lets add on a couple more thousand for that then. There`s still plenty left over.


----------



## dogsaintdumb

£75 for the initial (and first of a series of two) vaccination(s) for 5?  I paid individually at £43 each, though for the full vaccination. The vet rounded it down to the closest number for me when I took more than four puppies in, I assumed that was more as a favour than anything else. Only knocked off a few quid. I understand it's different everywhere, but £75 for 5 seems way low to me (can't say I questioned the price of basic vet care TBH).

The KC isn't the "be all and end all". I actually don't have many great things to say about the KC as a whole, simply because I find the physical standards set for some of the breeds to be detrimental to the breed itself. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm not opening it up for argument. I personally prefer my dogs to be from working lines. If it was realistic, I would go for lines where each dog is titled in a breed-appropriate sport as well as conformation, though the breeds I've chosen either can't be shown in conformation or have a very distinct working/show line and, typically, won't title high in _both_ (though entirely possible, don't get me wrong).

Okay, so did some maths myself while this awful tension headache keeps me awake.

Hips/elbows/eyes + patellar luxation = rounded up to £300 for the four dogs I had tested
Vaccinations for 16 puppies in total = £680
2 scans during pregnancy for 4 litters = £175 (roughly £25 each -- the cost of one is missing as for the first litter I only had the bitch scanned once)
Stud dog #1 = £230 (2009)
Stud dog #2 = £160 (2011)
Overall stud dog travel costs (this took some google-mapping LOL) = £190-£210
1 stay at B&B in 2011 = £67

Worming for the 3 bitches = £70 (could have been reduced)
Worming for puppies = £85 (again, could have been reduced -- medication was purchased at the vet)
Each bitch had two general examinations during pregnancy = £120
Puppies check-ups = £120 (£7.50 per pup)

Total: £2,217

Puppies from unproven working dogs, of a breed unable to be KC registered, sold at a reasonable price of three litters (2 of 5 and 1 of 1, so 11 puppies total = £1,540) at £140 in 2007-2009 and one litter of five (total: £625) at £125 in 2011.

16 puppies, totalling = £2,165.

I've not included things like whelping boxes, price of food, the cost of hand rearing, the props to socialise, flea treatment, microchipping or further vet care (emergency spays) as I noticed I was already out of pocket! As I said, the price varies from place to place for certain procedures so take the total cost with a pinch of salt.

What is the key, overpricing puppies?  A puppy from unproven lines with no health testing is worth pennies and dimes in currency.


----------



## StormyThai

caz58 said:


> Lets start from the top.
> Stud fees- £500?
> Overnight accommodation-£100?
> Vets bills during pregnancy-£200?
> Scan-£25?
> Washing of bedding for 10 weeks-£100?
> Heating pad or heat lamp-£100?
> Vet checks-£100?
> Food-£200?
> Worming-£50
> KC registration for five pups-£80
> First vaccinations for five pups-£75
> Microchipping-£75
> Total-£1,605
> 
> Five well bred pups at £1,500 each= £7,500
> Take away £1,605= £5,895
> 
> Not included the C Section because that is not always necessary.
> That`s quite a hefty amount (sorry can`t say profit on here) for your future expenses!


Cheapest litter in creation...but then when you cut corners it is easier to make money off a living being huh?


----------



## Spellweaver

caz58 said:


> Lets start from the top.
> Stud fees- £500?
> Overnight accommodation-£100?
> Vets bills during pregnancy-£200?
> Scan-£25?
> Washing of bedding for 10 weeks-£100?
> Heating pad or heat lamp-£100?
> Vet checks-£100?
> Food-£200?
> Worming-£50
> KC registration for five pups-£80
> First vaccinations for five pups-£75
> Microchipping-£75
> Total-£1,605
> 
> Five well bred pups at £1,500 each= £7,500
> Take away £1,605= £5,895
> 
> Not included the C Section because that is not always necessary.
> That`s quite a hefty amount (sorry can`t say profit on here) for your future expenses!


The fact that on your list there are no costs for health checks such as hip/elbow scoring or any DNA testing necessary for the breed speaks volumes as to your degree of ethicalness - as does the fact that you have not included time off work without pay for a couple of months in order to look after the bitch in her last stages of pregnancy and to bring up the litter. And there are many well-bred dogs that cost less than the whopping £1500 each you quoted - an extremely well-bred potential show border collie from the top breeder in the country will only cost £750, for example. And the stud fee is usually the price of a pup - so if you want to say pups sell for £1500, you need to add another grand onto your total.


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## caz58

Spellweaver said:


> The fact that on your list there are no costs for health checks such as hip/elbow scoring or any DNA testing necessary for the breed speaks volumes as to your degree of ethicalness - as does the fact that you have not included time off work without pay for a couple of months in order to look after the bitch in her last stages of pregnancy and to bring up the litter. And there are many well-bred dogs that cost less than the whopping £1500 each you quoted - an extremely well-bred potential show border collie from the top breeder in the country will only cost £750, for example. And the stud fee is usually the price of a pup - so if you want to say pups sell for £1500, you need to add another grand onto your total.


Well anyone who can take time off work for a couple of months must have a very understanding employer. I haven`t included health tests, but even if I had, I am guessing that they can`t come to any more than £1,000. I think £750 must be at the bottom of the scale for a top breeder. I couldn`t imagine getting some of the more expensive dogs for that price. There are French bulldogs advertised on the internet, ranging from £500 to £4,500! I`m sure there are plenty of other breeds that go for a lot more. Do breeding costs really ammount to enough to justify selling them for that much money?!! I very much doubt it.


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## Guest

caz58 said:


> Five well bred pups at £1,500 each


How can you justify charging that much for a puppy from parents that have not had actual health testing?


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## caz58

ouesi said:


> How can you justify charging that much for a puppy from parents that have not had actual health testing?


I`m not trying to justify charging that much for a puppy. I was using £1,500 as a conservative figure for the price of a dog from a top breeder. Not all breeds need health tests, but even if you added on another grand, you still wouldn`t be out of pocket. I am just trying to make the argument against the people on here that say that breeding their dogs does not make them any money.


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## Guest

caz58 said:


> I was using £1,500 as a conservative figure for the price of a dog from a top breeder.


A top breeder would be health testing, and doing a hell of a lot more with their dogs than just producing litters out of them. Entry fees and travel expenses for shows and competitions, seminar costs, whelping box and equipment to enrich the pup's environment....

I always find it interesting how often you see exorbitant prices out of "okay" breeders, and the truly great breeders would rather give a dog away to a great home than sell one for thousands. 
But that's the difference between wanting to make a few bucks and wanting what's best for the dogs in question.


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## Meezey

I'm guessing Darth meant it as a rhetorical question....


caz58 said:


> I`m not trying to justify charging that much for a puppy. I was using £1,500 as a conservative figure for the price of a dog from a top breeder. Not all breeds need health tests, but even if you added on another grand, you still wouldn`t be out of pocket. I am just trying to make the argument against the people on here that say that breeding their dogs does not make them any money.


Conservative figure? Shows how little you know about ethical breeding! My Rottweiler from parents with hip scores ( the only mandatory test via KC) elbow scores and eye test ( recommended by KC but not required) heart, JRD and DNA ( not recommended or required by KC) who are both graded as exellent temperament ( via independent assessor not just the breeders say so) who came to me micro chipped, first VAC, heart and eye checked cost half of your conservative figure, they also kept a pup on until 15 did full course of injections socialised her, kept a pup themselves and one went to a new home free leaving 5 puppies...... Think they made money on that?

My Frenchie came to me for less than £1400 eyes clear ( only two tests recommended not required but recommended by KC) heart, patella tests first vaccination and micro chipped! 3 puppies in litter she kept one too 2 puppies sold at less than your conservative figure....


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## dogsaintdumb

Shih Tzus DO need health testing for PRA and renal dysplasia.


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## caz58

Meezey said:


> I'm guessing Darth meant it as a rhetorical question....
> 
> Conservative figure? Shows how little you know about ethical breeding! My Rottweiler from parents with hip scores ( the only mandatory test via KC) elbow scores and eye test ( recommended by KC but not required) heart, JRD and DNA ( not recommended or required by KC) who are both graded as exellent temperament ( via independent assessor not just the breeders say so) who came to me micro chipped, first VAC, heart and eye checked cost half of your conservative figure, they also kept a pup on until 15 did full course of injections socialised her, kept a pup themselves and one went to a new home free leaving 5 puppies...... Think they made money on that?
> 
> My Frenchie came to me for less than £1400 eyes clear ( only two tests recommended not required but recommended by KC) heart, patella tests first vaccination and micro chipped! 3 puppies in litter she kept one too 2 puppies sold at less than your conservative figure....


Well there must be very few ethical breeders out there then, judging by the prices I have seen on the internet.


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## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Well there must be very few ethical breeders out there then, judging by the prices I have seen on the internet.


If your looking at the likes of Gumtree you won't find one.....


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## caz58

dogsaintdumb said:


> Shih Tzus DO need health testing for PRA and renal dysplasia.


Yes, you are right, I have just looked it up. If I had known, I would have had it done, but I trusted the KC website.


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## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Yes, you are right, I have just looked it up. If I had known, I would have had it done, but I trusted the KC website.


That's the part about not just breeding for money!! If you been in the breed club you'd of know this which I'd said from the beginning just because the KC does not require or recommend it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done...


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## caz58

Meezey said:


> If your looking at the likes of Gumtree you won't find one.....


Not Gumtree, no, but similar, yes. They are all boasting about their health checks, the excellent line the dog has come from etc. There must be people out there that are paying these prices. I wouldn`t imagine it is your average pet owner, so it must be people who have knowledge of the breed they are buying.


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## Guest

caz58 said:


> Well there must be very few ethical breeders out there then,


Sadly, this is actually very true.


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## Meezey

dogsaintdumb said:


> Shih Tzus DO need health testing for PRA and renal dysplasia.


They also have the same problem with their nostrils and breathing as Frenchies and Pugs etc hope that was taken in to consideration too.


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## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Not Gumtree, no, but similar, yes. They are all boasting about their health checks, the excellent line the dog has come from etc. There must be people out there that are paying these prices. I wouldn`t imagine it is your average pet owner, so it must be people who have knowledge of the breed they are buying.


Epupz? Pets4homes? No they are not people knowledgeable in the breed buying, because those who do know the breed wouldn't be looking in those kind of places for dogs.


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## caz58

Meezey said:


> They also have the same problem with their nostrils and breathing as Frenchies and Pugs etc hope that was taken in to consideration too.


Yes, it was taken into consideration insofar as knowing that the bitch and stud have no breathing problems, but this is true of all flat nosed breeds isn`t it? I think long gone breeders of the past have a lot to answer for.


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## caz58

Meezey said:


> Epupz? Pets4homes? No they are not people knowledgeable in the breed buying, because those who do know the breed wouldn't be looking in those kind of places for dogs.


Well why would they be paying £4,500 for a Frenchie, if they can get one for £500. They must have some reason...


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## Guest

caz58 said:


> Well why would they be paying £4,500 for a Frenchie, if they can get one for £500. They must have some reason...


'Cause there is a fool born every minute? A fool and his money are easily parted?

Caz58, what's your point on this thread?
That you can make money breeding dogs? Sure, of course you can. 
The question then becomes *should* your focus in breeding dogs be on making money, and what shortcuts will you have to take in order to do so? Are those shortcuts worth it when we're talking the lives of sentient creatures?


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## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Well why would they be paying £4,500 for a Frenchie, if they can get one for £500. They must have some reason...


Are they blue or lilac?


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## Meezey

Oh that'll be the rare blue fawn sable Frenchie??? From the "famous" blue and tan Frenchie??????


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## caz58

ouesi said:


> 'Cause there is a fool born every minute? A fool and his money are easily parted?
> 
> Caz58, what's your point on this thread?
> That you can make money breeding dogs? Sure, of course you can.
> The question then becomes *should* your focus in breeding dogs be on making money, and what shortcuts will you have to take in order to do so? Are those shortcuts worth it when we're talking the lives of sentient creatures?


My point is, that the average Joe does not have access to these "ethical breeders" and probably would not be sold a puppy by one anyway.
Therefore, there are people who are breeding dogs as pets for people (and show dogs) who are making a lot of money, even if they do all the relevant health checks and don`t take any shortcuts.
How does the average pet owner access these "ethical breeders".
I`m guessing it would be with great difficulty, therefore there are always going to be people out there selling puppies, (sometimes on a very large scale) that don`t fit the general consensus on here for what an "ethical breeder" is.


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## Meezey

Meezey said:


> Oh that'll be the rare blue fawn sable Frenchie??? From the "famous" blue and tan Frenchie??????


Also advertised on Pets4homes says it all really! The ultimate let's breed for money puppy farmers!!!


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## caz58

Meezey said:


> Oh that'll be the rare blue fawn sable Frenchie??? From the "famous" blue and tan Frenchie??????


Yes, that is right. Advertised on Pets4homes.


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## caz58

Meezey said:


> Also advertised on Pets4homes says it all really! The ultimate let's breed for money puppy farmers!!!


So why would anyone pay that much???


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## Meezey

caz58 said:


> My point is, that the average Joe does not have access to these "ethical breeders" and probably would not be sold a puppy by one anyway.
> Therefore, there are people who are breeding dogs as pets for people (and show dogs) who are making a lot of money, even if they do all the relevant health checks and don`t take any shortcuts.
> How does the average pet owner access these "ethical breeders".
> I`m guessing it would be with great difficulty, therefore there are always going to be people out there selling puppies, (sometimes on a very large scale) that don`t fit the general consensus on here for what an "ethical breeder" is.


Why wouldn't they be sold a puppy? I found an ethical breeder for Rottweilers well before the time of the internet and joining this forum! If people care about their pets welfare they will research before buying a puppy!!

Its not just on here! Morally you should be asking yourself what type of breeder you want to be? One who just make cash from there dogs? Those who love dogs on here and outside this forum will treat those who use dogs to bolster their income with the same contempt!


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## lorilu

caz58 said:


> Well why would they be paying £4,500 for a Frenchie, if they can get one for £500. They must have some reason...


This one's easy, the main reason would be because no *ethical responsible* breeder would sell to them. So they buy from puppy mill breeders instead. What they want is a status symbol. they don't care who bred the dog, or if the dog is healthy or what conditions the dog came from or is kept in.


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## caz58

lorilu said:


> This one's easy, the main reason would be because no *ethical responsible* breeder would sell to them. So they buy from puppy mill breeders instead. What they want is a status symbol. they don't care who bred the dog, or if the dog is healthy or what conditions the dog came from or is kept in.


Well the dogs for £500 are on the same site (pets4homes) as the one for £4,500.


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## Guest

caz58 said:


> My point is, that the average Joe does not have access to these "ethical breeders" and probably would not be sold a puppy by one anyway.
> Therefore, there are people who are breeding dogs as pets for people (and show dogs) who are making a lot of money, even if they do all the relevant health checks and don`t take any shortcuts.
> How does the average pet owner access these "ethical breeders".
> I`m guessing it would be with great difficulty, therefore there are always going to be people out there selling puppies, (sometimes on a very large scale) that don`t fit the general consensus on here for what an "ethical breeder" is.


What kind of convoluted bassackwards logic is that?
- Your Average Joe *does* have access to great breeders. They're not all hiding!
- Great breeders (of pet breeds) ARE breeding pets. Just because a dog shows or competes a couple times a year doesn't mean the dog isn't primarily a pet.
- So because there will always be people out there selling puppies, that makes it right? There will always be thieves and liars too, does that make lying and stealing right?


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## SingingWhippet

caz58 said:


> My point is, that the average Joe does not have access to these "ethical breeders" and probably would not be sold a puppy by one anyway.
> Therefore, there are people who are breeding dogs as pets for people (and show dogs) who are making a lot of money, even if they do all the relevant health checks and don`t take any shortcuts.
> How does the average pet owner access these "ethical breeders".
> I`m guessing it would be with great difficulty, therefore there are always going to be people out there selling puppies, (sometimes on a very large scale) that don`t fit the general consensus on here for what an "ethical breeder" is.


If anything it's the other way around, the average pet owner doesn't _bother_ looking for a decent breeder either due to their ignorance, because they don't want to put the effort in or because of misconceptions about pedigree breeders, especially those who show their dogs.

The first pup OH and I bought came from a fantastic breeder (of a breed with no recommended health tests and yet she still doesn't make a profit) despite the fact we'd only had rescues and weren't even remotely involved in showing or the local dog "scene" in any way. Despite the fact she shows and is breeding for quality show dogs (and she's producing several consistently good show dogs in each litter she's had, no mean feat in a breed as populous as ours) she was more than happy for us to have a puppy "just" as a pet because we could provide a fabulous home for one.

It wasn't remotely difficult for us to source a puppy from a decent, ethical and caring breeder (who was perfectly happy to sell us one) despite never having bought a dog before in our lives.


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## caz58

ouesi said:


> What kind of convoluted bassackwards logic is that?
> - Your Average Joe *does* have access to great breeders. They're not all hiding!
> - Great breeders (of pet breeds) ARE breeding pets. Just because a dog shows or competes a couple times a year doesn't mean the dog isn't primarily a pet.
> - So because there will always be people out there selling puppies, that makes it right? There will always be thieves and liars too, does that make lying and stealing right?


I didn`t say it wasn`t a pet!! If they`re not hiding, where do they advertise their puppies. I expect you will say that they don`t need to because they always have waiting lists, so I repeat....how does the average pet owner, not in the "know" find these breeders.


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## lorilu

caz58 said:


> I didn`t say it wasn`t a pet!! If they`re not hiding, where do they advertise their puppies. I expect you will say that they don`t need to because they always have waiting lists, so I repeat....how does the average pet owner, not in the "know" find these breeders.


They don't advertise their puppies. That's the whole point. They have a website (usually) and one can learn about them there. Then if someone wants a pup, they contact the breeder, get approved, make a deposit, and yes, go on the waiting list. Ethical breeders don't breed a ton of pups then sell them on websites.

People who want to buy a pup from an ethical responsible breeder _make the time and effort_ to find one. They research, visit, check references and reviews, ask questions, visit again, and so on. That's how.

Sadly, people are lazy and don't care. So the puppy mills stay in business and the suffering continues.


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## Guest

caz58 said:


> I didn`t say it wasn`t a pet!! If they`re not hiding, where do they advertise their puppies. I expect you will say that they don`t need to because they always have waiting lists, so I repeat....how does the average pet owner, not in the "know" find these breeders.


People put more effort in to researching a car than they do a puppy.
I'm in the US. If I wanted a certain breed of dog, I go to the AKC or UKC website, search that breed, which from there takes me to the parent club for that breed. Parent clubs are a great place to start looking for a breeder.
Now I start calling breeders, many of whom might not have litters on the ground at the moment, but can direct me to breeders who do, or even rescues that have litters in. 
It's really not hard.

If a good breeder or rescue won't sell you a dog, then perhaps a dog is not right for you. An acquaintance recently bemoaned the fact that she was turned down by two rescues. Never mind the fact that her last two dogs were run over because "they kept getting out". I told her maybe those rescues were on to something. 
She got a designer dog something from a glorified puppy mill, can't get the dog potty trained (no good start from the breeder, no good support), has the poor thing out in a pen outside now, and *shocker*, the dog keeps escaping. Just a matter of time before this one gets run over


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## caz58

ouesi said:


> What kind of convoluted bassackwards logic is that?
> - Your Average Joe *does* have access to great breeders. They're not all hiding!
> - Great breeders (of pet breeds) ARE breeding pets. Just because a dog shows or competes a couple times a year doesn't mean the dog isn't primarily a pet.
> - So because there will always be people out there selling puppies, that makes it right? There will always be thieves and liars too, does that make lying and stealing right?


No,it is not right to farm puppies. It is abhorrent and sickening for the poor dog that spends her entire life in a cage. But home breeding one or two litters, as long as you are doing everything in your power to care for the bitch and pups properly, and do your best to ensure the pups go to a great forever home, is not, in my opinion,the same thing.


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## lorilu

caz58 said:


> No,it is not right to farm puppies. It is abhorrent and sickening for the poor dog that spends her entire life in a cage. But home breeding one or two litters, as long as you are doing everything in your power to care for the bitch and pups properly, and do your best to ensure the pups go to a great forever home, is not, in my opinion,the same thing.


Sure it is. You are doing it for profit. Just like the other puppy mills. There is no reason at all for those pups to have been born except greed. It is the same thing.


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## caz58

[QUOTE=
I’m in the US. If I wanted a certain breed of dog, I go to the AKC or UKC website, search that breed, which from there takes me to the parent club for that breed. Parent clubs are a great place to start looking for a breeder.
In the UK we have the Kennel Club with their dodgy "assured breeder" scheme. Other than that, I wouldn`t know where to look.


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## caz58

lorilu said:


> Sure it is. You are doing it for profit. Just like the other puppy mills. There is no reason at all for those pups to have been born except greed. It is the same thing.


It`s NOT the same thing. Oh and by the way, in case you think I am charging an extortionate ammount for my puppies, I am not.


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## Magyarmum

Meezey said:


> Why wouldn't they be sold a puppy? I found an ethical breeder for Rottweilers well before the time of the internet and joining this forum! If people care about their pets welfare they will research before buying a puppy!!
> 
> Its not just on here! Morally you should be asking yourself what type of breeder you want to be? One who just make cash from there dogs? Those who love dogs on here and outside this forum will treat those who use dogs to bolster their income with the same contempt!


Same here! Gwylim, my Miniature Schnauzer, comes from the top MS show breeder in Hungary. Puppies from his kennels have been shown all over Europe, Canada and the States. One of Gwylim's sisters now lives in Birmingham UK. Robert doesn't advertise his puppies, he sells on recommendation only and then only after close scrutiny of the prospective owner.. When I was thinking of buying an MS as a companion for my Pei Georgina (who also came from a top SP breeder), I spoke to her trainer who has an MS from the same breeder, and as she knew me well, she spoke to Robert to ask him if he would consider me as a prospective owner. Believe you me, I was interrogated about every aspect of dog ownership ... food, health, training, safety, the vet I used etc, etc and because he lives within driving distance he did two home checks before he agreed to sell Gwylim to me.

I know darned well neither he nor Georgina's breeder are in it purely for the money. Both Robert and his wife and Janos (my Pei's breeder) and his wife have full time jobs and can only continue to breed dogs because they have supportive families to assist them. They do it for the love and betterment of their respective breeds!


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## Dogloverlou

caz58 said:


> My point is, that the average Joe does not have access to these "ethical breeders" and probably would not be sold a puppy by one anyway.
> Therefore, there are people who are breeding dogs as pets for people (and show dogs) who are making a lot of money, even if they do all the relevant health checks and don`t take any shortcuts.
> *How does the average pet owner access these "ethical breeders".*
> I`m guessing it would be with great difficulty, therefore there are always going to be people out there selling puppies, (sometimes on a very large scale) that don`t fit the general consensus on here for what an "ethical breeder" is.


With the amount of information out there on the great wide Web there really is no excuse for people to not know where to buy. If people just wised up and put the effort into finding a quality breeder they'd be far less need for people like yourself supplying pups to those who just want one 'right now' with minimal effort into finding these ethical breeders.
Even those without access to the Internet - there are vet surgeries, trainers, breed clubs....all places I'd ask of where to start on my search for a puppy.


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## RottieRubysMum

I think there's quite a bit of laziness and convenience and getting a "quick fix" involved sometimes. Some people like the idea better than the reality of having a puppy, going through an ethical breeder/rescue and doing it the right way, often throws up many questions, about raising a puppy, your lifestyle etc. And people are just like, "screw it, give me the cute puppy."

It's shocking that you are okay giving your pup to a couple with a young child and don't know about the KC, they don't seem to have thought this through and with a young child as well, they may have their hands full, you should have made them see that, or risk your puppy's wellbeing, so well done there.


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## Guest

caz58 said:


> No,it is not right to farm puppies. It is abhorrent and sickening for the poor dog that spends her entire life in a cage. But home breeding one or two litters, as long as you are doing everything in your power to care for the bitch and pups properly, and do your best to ensure the pups go to a great forever home, is not, in my opinion,the same thing.


Again, it's a matter of degrees. Just because you're not a puppy farmer doesn't make what you're doing okay.

What kind of litmus test is that anyway "not a puppy farmer" is setting the bar *way* to low don't you think?

If you're producing the exact same dogs that are already available in rescues and shelters all over the place, you are adding to the pet overpopulation crisis and you are indeed part of the problem.

If you're not very knowledgeable or experienced, doing "everything in your power" to care for bitch and puppies is simply not good enough. I don't know jack squat about breeding goats (yes, I brought up goats :Bag), so I simply don't know enough to be able to do as good of a job as someone who does know what they're doing.
This is why ethical breeders mentor with other breeders for years before they even consider breeding their own. Often in mentoring they decide they simply don't want to put their bitch through a whelping. I know I couldn't.

If you're not very knowledgeable or experienced, how are you going to best ensure the pups go to a good home? What do you know about temperament and behavior and development in puppies to best pick the right pup for the right home? What do you know about people and their different lifestyles and needs in a dog to ask the right questions and read how they answer them? These are all things that you learn from those who have been there, done that. It's not something you just decide to do without support or mentorship.


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## Spellweaver

caz58 said:


> Well anyone who can take time off work for a couple of months must have a very understanding employer. I haven`t included health tests, but even if I had, I am guessing that they can`t come to any more than £1,000. I think £750 must be at the bottom of the scale for a top breeder. I couldn`t imagine getting some of the more expensive dogs for that price. There are French bulldogs advertised on the internet, ranging from £500 to £4,500! I`m sure there are plenty of other breeds that go for a lot more. Do breeding costs really ammount to enough to justify selling them for that much money?!! I very much doubt it.


Nevertheless, an ethical breeder will either take unpaid time off work, or arrange part holidays and part unpaid leave, or pay someone else to be full time with their bitch and litter. As for the prices you think puppies sell for, I reckon you're looking in the wrong places because you certainly have no idea of he true price from an ethical breeder. The £750 I quoted is what you would expect to pay any top show breeder for a border collie - you may see them for much more on the internet but what kind of breeders are they? See, the thing is I have known top breeders let their pups go for much less than the asking price to a good home - almost the exact opposite of your "ask as much as you can so you make a big profit" ideal. For a decent ethical breeder, the pup's new home is far more important than the money they will be getting for the pup.

And an ethical breeder never stops being responsible for any dog they've bred and sold. A good case in point (already spoken about by me on other threads on here) is the breeders of my border collie bitch. We bred her and then disaster struck in that I was hospitalised and am still not better 6 months down the line. My bitch's breeder stepped in, took my bitch hiome with her a couple of weeks before she was due, whelped her, cared for her and her pups, took care of the selling of her pups - I notice you don't think of taking the cost anything like that from your "profit".

You keep asking why ethical breeders say they don't make profits and you've been given lots of examples by lots of different people. If you idon't accept what they're telling you is true, if you persist in judging every breeder on your own standards of "don't bother looking after the pegnant bitch and the litter full time, don't pay for health tests, sell each pup for as much money as you can, and bugger the pup's future" then you never will understand why ethical breeders don't make a profit.


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## MerlinsMum

caz58 said:


> They are all boasting about their health checks, the excellent line the dog has come from etc.


Health checks are not the same as health tests, and I know I've seen plenty of misleading adverts. Like the one for french Bulldogs claiming Champion lines, but then saying the puppies carry the "rare blue gene". Well, there can't be any Champions on that side... as it's not a recognised colour! Unless they mean overseas champions.... and in many countries it's far easier to make up a Champion than it is in the UK, so it's not the distinction of quality as it is here.


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## simplysardonic

dogsaintdumb said:


> I don't know a lot about Shih Tzus (if I recall correctly), but surely there is some health testing to be done for the dam/sire before breeding?


Although there are no 'official' health tests for the breed, there is an extensive list of issues (both genetic like autoimmune disease & conformational like entropion) that scan't be tested for yet

http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/shih-tzu/


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## caz58

ouesi said:


> Again, it's a matter of degrees. Just because you're not a puppy farmer doesn't make what you're doing okay.
> 
> What kind of litmus test is that anyway "not a puppy farmer" is setting the bar *way* to low don't you think?
> 
> If you're producing the exact same dogs that are already available in rescues and shelters all over the place, you are adding to the pet overpopulation crisis and you are indeed part of the problem.
> 
> If you're not very knowledgeable or experienced, doing "everything in your power" to care for bitch and puppies is simply not good enough. I don't know jack squat about breeding goats (yes, I brought up goats :Bag), so I simply don't know enough to be able to do as good of a job as someone who does know what they're doing.
> This is why ethical breeders mentor with other breeders for years before they even consider breeding their own. Often in mentoring they decide they simply don't want to put their bitch through a whelping. I know I couldn't.
> 
> If you're not very knowledgeable or experienced, how are you going to best ensure the pups go to a good home? What do you know about temperament and behavior and development in puppies to best pick the right pup for the right home? What do you know about people and their different lifestyles and needs in a dog to ask the right questions and read how they answer them? These are all things that you learn from those who have been there, done that. It's not something you just decide to do without support or mentorship.





Spellweaver said:


> Nevertheless, an ethical breeder will either take unpaid time off work, or arrange part holidays and part unpaid leave, or pay someone else to be full time with their bitch and litter. As for the prices you think puppies sell for, I reckon you're looking in the wrong places because you certainly have no idea of he true price from an ethical breeder. The £750 I quoted is what you would expect to pay any top show breeder for a border collie - you may see them for much more on the internet but what kind of breeders are they? See, the thing is I have known top breeders let their pups go for much less than the asking price to a good home - almost the exact opposite of your "ask as much as you can so you make a big profit" ideal. For a decent ethical breeder, the pup's new home is far more important than the money they will be getting for the pup.
> 
> And an ethical breeder never stops being responsible for any dog they've bred and sold. A good case in point (already spoken about by me on other threads on here) is the breeders of my border collie bitch. We bred her and then disaster struck in that I was hospitalised and am still not better 6 months down the line. My bitch's breeder stepped in, took my bitch hiome with her a couple of weeks before she was due, whelped her, cared for her and her pups, took care of the selling of her pups - I notice you don't think of taking the cost anything like that from your "profit".
> 
> You keep asking why ethical breeders say they don't make profits and you've been given lots of examples by lots of different people. If you idon't accept what they're telling you is true, if you persist in judging every breeder on your own standards of "don't bother looking after the pegnant bitch and the litter full time, don't pay for health tests, sell each pup for as much money as you can, and bugger the pup's future" then you never will understand why ethical breeders don't make a profit.[/QUOTE
> I think you are making assumptions that I don`t look after my dog, that I don`t care where the pups end up, and I am selling them for vast ammounts of money. They are Shih Tzus. They don`t sell for vast ammounts of money. I do look after my dogs, very well in fact, and I care a lot where they end up.


----------



## caz58

RottieRubysMum said:


> I think there's quite a bit of laziness and convenience and getting a "quick fix" involved sometimes. Some people like the idea better than the reality of having a puppy, going through an ethical breeder/rescue and doing it the right way, often throws up many questions, about raising a puppy, your lifestyle etc. And people are just like, "screw it, give me the cute puppy."
> 
> It's shocking that you are okay giving your pup to a couple with a young child and don't know about the KC, they don't seem to have thought this through and with a young child as well, they may have their hands full, you should have made them see that, or risk your puppy's wellbeing, so well done there.


Just because someone doesn`t know about the KC doesn`t mean they can`t give a dog a loving home!


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> Just because someone doesn`t know about the KC doesn`t mean they can`t give a dog a loving home!


Ummm just a loving isn't enough.....


----------



## RottieRubysMum

caz58 said:


> Just because someone doesn`t know about the KC doesn`t mean they can`t give a dog a loving home!





Meezey said:


> Ummm just a loving isn't enough.....


Exactly, if they don't know about the KC, do they know about basic training? Do they know about vaccinations? Poisonous food to dogs? Recommended daily exercise? How to find the right dog food? How often to worm and deflea? Need I go on?


----------



## caz58

RottieRubysMum said:


> I think there's quite a bit of laziness and convenience and getting a "quick fix" involved sometimes. Some people like the idea better than the reality of having a puppy, going through an ethical breeder/rescue and doing it the right way, often throws up many questions, about raising a puppy, your lifestyle etc. And people are just like, "screw it, give me the cute puppy."
> 
> It's shocking that you are okay giving your pup to a couple with a young child and don't know about the KC, they don't seem to have thought this through and with a young child as well, they may have their hands full, you should have made them see that, or risk your puppy's wellbeing, so well done there.


You just tar everyone with the same brush don`t you.
The snobbery, and holier than though attitude by some of the members on here, stinks.
I think some of you have made very good points, and believe me, I have taken them on board.
Some of you are just abusive, and seem to want to blame me for all the unhappy dogs in the country.
I am obviously according to you,not intelligent enough to make an informed decision about where the pups go. I do have a mentor, and I will also be drawing up contracts, and information sheets for the new owners.
People have accused me of not looking after my dogs, which I assure you I do, very well. 
I have been sworn at, and called a puppy farmer!
I have had one litter of five pups!
I will not be posting any more comments, although I`m sure the abuse will continue!
Thanks for all the advice.
I


----------



## SingingWhippet

caz58 said:


> Just because someone doesn`t know about the KC doesn`t mean they can`t give a dog a loving home!


It's not just about providing a single dog with a loving home though.

For starters all the love in the world can't help a puppy with inherited health problems because the breeder either didn't health test or hadn't researched the health of the lines they used well enough. Loving her didn't stop my rescue bitch losing her sight at just 18 months old due to hereditary cataracts.

Would you recommend against buying a puppy from a pet shop or an obvious puppy farm if someone mentioned to you that's where they were getting a pup? If so, why? Surely as long as they love the pup that is all that matters.........

I would like to think that people genuinely don't know about good breeders and the like but to be honest I think in the majority of cases it comes down to wilful ignorance. You've only got to look at how many websites (whatever they may be selling) use a review system or how many sites there are which are _entirely_ dedicated to helping the user make a choice when they're buying a car/camera/phone/TV/computer/etc. It's abundantly clear that people tend to do a _lot_ of research before buying just about anything and yet for some reason nobody googles anything like "buying a puppy", "where to buy a puppy", "getting a puppy". Even results from just searching for "puppies" or "puppies for sale" have either information from the KC on the first page or from _both_ the KC and the RSPCA.

It's ridiculous to presume that all these people buying from puppy farmers, puppy dealers, pet shops and BYBs don't know that there alternatives. I'm sure there are the odd few who are genuinely ignorant but for most (and call me cynical if you must) I think they just don't want to know because they want a puppy right now regardless of whether they're an appropriate home or have chosen an appropriate breed.

Unfortunately as long as there are people willing to buy puppies like this there will be breeders there to exploit the demand for puppies for profit.


----------



## RottieRubysMum

caz58 said:


> You just tar everyone with the same brush don`t you.
> The snobbery, and holier than though attitude by some of the members on here, stinks.
> I think some of you have made very good points, and believe me, I have taken them on board.
> Some of you are just abusive, and seem to want to blame me for all the unhappy dogs in the country.
> I am obviously according to you,not intelligent enough to make an informed decision about where the pups go. I do have a mentor, and I will also be drawing up contracts, and information sheets for the new owners.
> People have accused me of not looking after my dogs, which I assure you I do, very well.
> I have been sworn at, and called a puppy farmer!
> I have had one litter of five pups!
> I will not be posting any more comments, although I`m sure the abuse will continue!
> Thanks for all the advice.
> I


It's not about snobbery! It's about common sense! I adopted a rescue, but I still took it upon myself to do over a year's worth of research before going to the rescue centre. And I knew what the KC was when I was 11, but in fairness; I was way into my breeds back then.

We are merely pointing out that you are part of the problem, not THE problem. We didn't insult your intelligence, just questioned your decisions and opinions; anybody with informed decisions and opinions should be able to stand up to questioning and give an insightful argument. Instead, you've thrown around a lot of words, assumed we were just being horrible and acted like a victim to our "bullying", when you started the controversy with your uninformed opinions.


----------



## Spellweaver

caz58 said:


> You just tar everyone with the same brush don`t you.
> The snobbery, and holier than though attitude by some of the members on here, stinks.
> I think some of you have made very good points, and believe me, I have taken them on board.
> Some of you are just abusive, and seem to want to blame me for all the unhappy dogs in the country.
> I am obviously according to you,not intelligent enough to make an informed decision about where the pups go. I do have a mentor, and I will also be drawing up contracts, and information sheets for the new owners.
> People have accused me of not looking after my dogs, which I assure you I do, very well.
> I have been sworn at, and called a puppy farmer!
> I have had one litter of five pups!
> I will not be posting any more comments, although I`m sure the abuse will continue!
> Thanks for all the advice.
> I


You asked a question and you were answered truthfully by several people with knowledge greater than yours.

If, instead of learning from the answers, you choose not to believe them and resort to calling those wiser than yourself "snobs", then what was the point in asking your question in the first place?


----------



## Dogloverlou

I think what it boils down to for me as well, is that you're somehow under the illusion Caz that you're breeding for a unique 'market' if you want to call it that. That yourself ( & Darth ) are the only 'good' among all those terrible show breeders who ONLY breed competition dogs and not pets.....
But you're not unique, and you're not meeting any demand that isn't already being met.

The breed club sums it up quite accurately really -

_Buying your puppy from a casual breeder can also be problematic. Whilst it would seem to be ideal to buy a puppy from a litter raised by a (probably much loved pet) bitch in a home environment you should question the motives behind having the litter. Are the people knowledgeable about Shih Tzu? Are the people concerned a member of a breed club and striving to learn as much about the breed as they can? Can they answer your questions about Shih Tzu satisfactorily? Are they prepared to stand by the puppies that they breed and would they take them back if there was a problem? Is there a proper contract of sale with satisfactory provision if things go wrong? If the answer to these questions is yes then the chances are you are talking to a responsible breeder, if not then you are just increasing your risk_.


----------



## Burrowzig

miljar said:


> Just a question.
> If you breed a litter, with all health testing done on the parents, then surely you have a very desirable bunch of puppies for sale.
> Why, then, does everybody say that they have either lost money, or just broken even?
> Whatever the price range, of the type of puppies you breed, surely you would be at the top end of it?


I bred a litter from health tested parents, and I didn't quite break even. The price I asked was nowhere near the top of the range for a working sheepdog from agility-proven parentage, but I had no intention of making a profit from the start. My bitch is my best friend, not a cash cow. I added up the costs of health testing, time off work, vet costs, food and wormer for the pups, extra food for mum and divided it by the number of pups for sale (intending to keep back one to bring on as my next agility dog). At the same time as my pups were getting ready to go to their new (all agility) homes, there was another litter advertised for more than twice the price of mine; no health tests but the seller making a big deal of the colour - shaded sable, same as mine. I didn't break even because I forgot to add in a few things, nothing very expensive, and I decided to keep 2 of the pups (just loved the second one too much to let her go). And don't go thinking I'm loaded; far from it - but if anything had gone wrong I had some savings I could have used for medical expenses. It was getting the right homes for the pups I was bothered about.


----------



## miljar

I am not sure what that goes to prove in the context of this thread, but it does say quite a bit about you. I wish you, and your dogs, all the best.


----------



## Darth

[


Dogloverlou said:


> I think what it boils down to for me as well, is that you're somehow under the illusion Caz that you're breeding for a unique 'market' if you want to call it that. That yourself ( & Darth ) are the only 'good' among all those terrible show breeders who ONLY breed competition dogs and not pets.....
> But you're not unique, and you're not meeting any demand that isn't already being met.


I don't believe I'm breeding for a unique market and I don't think I'm the only good among terrible show breeders, I simply don't believe show breeders could possibly have enough puppies to provide for everyone who wants one.

The majority of breeders sell all their puppies, if there were enough from only show and competition breeders pet breeders wouldn't be able to sell their puppies, or vice versa..

And yes..... I know there are both puppies and adults in rescues, but people don't always want a rescue, any more than they always want to buy from good ethical breeders, or show breeders.

Please don't assume what I'm thinking, you don't really have a clue.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> [
> 
> I don't believe I'm breeding for a unique market and I don't think I'm the only good among terrible show breeders, I simply don't believe show breeders could possibly have enough puppies to provide for everyone who wants one.
> 
> The majority of breeders sell all their puppies, if there were enough from only show and competition breeders pet breeders wouldn't be able to sell their puppies, or vice versa..
> 
> And yes..... I know there are both puppies and adults in rescues, but people don't always want a rescue, any more than they always want to buy from good ethical breeders, or show breeders.
> 
> Please don't assume what I'm thinking, you don't really have a clue.


Well your about as transparent as coal, so again don't try and act all insulted.....

Again what breed, how many litters and where are you dogs kept?

People like you make me laugh you come on here every now and then shouting then odds acting like you are the world oracle on breeding and dogs.. I think you still live at home and pretend to have litters from your stuffed toys..

Hold on while I put a mat on the floor so you don't hurt yourself throwing yourself on there floor and having a temper tantrum at being berated again.. Oh and I still wouldn't have a pup from you :Joyful


----------



## Guest

caz58 said:


> I will not be posting any more


Most likely for the best...


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> And yes..... I know there are both puppies and adults in rescues, but people don't always want a rescue, any more than they always want to buy from good ethical breeders, or show breeders.


Have you thought about why that is?
Most of the reasons I hear of people not wanting to rescue boil down to misconceptions.
- there are no purebreds in rescue (there are).
- there are no puppies in rescue (there are).
- rescue dogs have issues (not always, and all dogs can have issues)

Now let's look at why people don't want to buy from good ethical breeders or show breeders:
- I just want a pet, not a show dog (a show dog is a pet)
- I don't care about pedigree (then why get a pedigree dog?)
- show breeders are too expensive (well, we've proven on this thread that's not true at all)

Who is perpetuating these misconceptions I wonder? Oh right, the people breeders with less than stellar practices trying to get pups sold.
I find it interesting that someone who perpetuates these myths then turns around and uses them to justify breeding.


----------



## simplysardonic

ouesi said:


> Have you thought about why that is?
> Most of the reasons I hear of people not wanting to rescue boil down to misconceptions.
> - there are no purebreds in rescue (there are).
> - there are no puppies in rescue (there are).
> - rescue dogs have issues (not always, and all dogs can have issues)
> 
> Now let's look at why people don't want to buy from good ethical breeders or show breeders:
> - I just want a pet, not a show dog (a show dog is a pet)
> - I don't care about pedigree (then why get a pedigree dog?)
> - show breeders are too expensive (well, we've proven on this thread that's not true at all)
> 
> Who is perpetuating these misconceptions I wonder? Oh right, the people breeders with less than stellar practices trying to get pups sold.
> I find it interesting that someone who perpetuates these myths then turns around and uses them to justify breeding.


You could also add 'I want it now, no questions asked, & I'm not prepared to wait, or pay, or drive too far, or in any other way inconvenience myself for a decently bred pup' to your 2nd list


----------



## Guest

simplysardonic said:


> You could also add 'I want it now, no questions asked, & I'm not prepared to wait, or pay, or drive too far, or in any other way inconvenience myself for a decently bred pup' to your 2nd list


Yeah, the saddest one, and the one iffy breeders exploit the most.
A 10 - 15 year commitment to a living being needs to have a little more thought in to it than "I want it now"


----------



## Dogloverlou

Darth said:


> [
> 
> I don't believe I'm breeding for a unique market and I don't think I'm the only good among terrible show breeders, I simply don't believe show breeders could possibly have enough puppies to provide for everyone who wants one.
> 
> *The majority of breeders sell all their puppies, if there were enough from only show and competition breeders pet breeders wouldn't be able to sell their puppies, or vice versa..*
> 
> And yes..... I know there are both puppies and adults in rescues, but people don't always want a rescue, any more than they always want to buy from good ethical breeders, or show breeders.
> 
> Please don't assume what I'm thinking, you don't really have a clue.


I think you'll find that the only reason 'pet' breeders as mentioned in this thread sell their puppies, is because you're selling to the wrong people i.e those who have no idea what the KC is, don't want to put effort into finding a quality breeder, want a puppy NOW, no questions asked and no fuss or hassle. The only demand you're supplying for is for those who keep BYB's and puppy farmers in business. That is not something I'd be proud of in any way, shape or form.


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Well your about as transparent as coal, so again don't try and act all insulted.....
> 
> Again what breed, how many litters and where are you dogs kept?
> 
> People like you make me laugh you come on here every now and then shouting then odds acting like you are the world oracle on breeding and dogs.. I think you still live at home and pretend to have litters from your stuffed toys..
> 
> Hold on while I put a mat on the floor so you don't hurt yourself throwing yourself on there floor and having a temper tantrum at being berated again.. Oh and I still wouldn't have a pup from you :Joyful


Like I said.....you haven't got a clue.

You don't know what breed I have, or how many litters I breed...might be one a year might be more....but I will say, all my dogs live in my home, they want for absolutely nothing.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Like I said.....you haven't got a clue.
> 
> You don't know what breed I have, or how many litters I breed...might be one a year might be more....but I will say, all my dogs live in my home, they want for absolutely nothing.


Exactly and you really expect anyone to take anything you say seriously or consider you an ethical breeder when everything is so cloak and dagger? Yes of course they do? You have been a member on the forum from 2011 no picture or anything no dogs names mentioned but of course you are an ethical breeder, and your dogs are very much loved pets who you breed for "fun"...


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> all my dogs live in my home, they want for absolutely nothing.


And? What does that even mean?
Your dogs live in your home? Like that's some major accomplishment? Are you serious?

My dogs live in my home (and do want for many things because this mean owner won't let them roll in dead disgustingness or go skunk hunting) but that doesn't mean I have any business breeding either of them.

You keep saying folks don't have a clue, yet you have zero desire to be transparent about your breeding practices. Why so defensive and secretive if what you're doing is on the up and up?


----------



## Darth

Dogloverlou said:


> I think you'll find that the only reason 'pet' breeders as mentioned in this thread sell their puppies, is because you're selling to the wrong people i.e those who have no idea what the KC is, don't want to put effort into finding a quality breeder, want a puppy NOW, no questions asked and no fuss or hassle. The only demand you're supplying for is for those who keep BYB's and puppy farmers in business. That is not something I'd be proud of in any way, shape or form.


Bit of an assumption there.....I only advertise my puppies on the KC web site and that's only if I have more than I have on my waiting list. I vet all puppy buyers before they even get on my list, and if during the waiting period something crops up I don't like they don't get a puppy.


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Exactly and you really expect anyone to take anything you say seriously or consider you an ethical breeder when everything is so cloak and dagger? Yes of course they do? You have been a member on the forum from 2011 no picture or anything no dogs names mentioned but of course you are an ethical breeder, and your dogs are very much loved pets who you breed for "fun"...


Don't think I mentioned fun?


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Don't think I mentioned fun?


You enjoy breeding your dogs? That's the only reason?


----------



## Dogloverlou

Darth said:


> Like I said.....you haven't got a clue.
> 
> You don't know what breed I have, or how many litters I breed...might be one a year might be more....but I will say, all my dogs live in my home, they want for absolutely nothing.


My dog, who I dabble in showing with also lives in the home, accompanies me on holidays, days outs, is rarely left, and wants for nothing. The point being?


----------



## Meezey

Dogloverlou said:


> My dog, who I dabble in showing with also lives in the home, accompanies me on holidays, days outs, is rarely left, and wants for nothing. The point being?


Mine too maybe that's why I give show people a bad name! Never stepped in a ring with a dog myself mind, but seemingly give those who do a bad name....


----------



## Rafa

Darth said:


> I breed because I enjoy it...plain and simple.
> 
> I breed healthy puppies which are brought up in my sitting room from health tested parents. I travel miles for a stud dog who I consider the best choice for my girl, I sleep downstairs next to the whelping box for two weeks, worming programme for Mum and pups rigorously carried out....no flea treatment because non of my dogs have fleas!
> 
> I'm a member of the ABS ....I know some people don't rate it, but having had a home visit recently and passed with flying colours, I actually do. In fact when the assesor left I felt like I'd been through the wringer!
> 
> One thing makes me slightly different to what appears to be the accepted.....I don't show or compete, but does this make me a byb?
> 
> I don't actually make a profit either when all things are considered, just maybe get back what it costs to keep girls and puppies.


"I breed because I enjoy it .... plain and simple". Your words in your first line.

That is not a good reason to be producing litters of pups of whatever breed - you seem strangely reluctant to say what breed.

My bitch lives in my home, that doesn't mean it's okay to breed from her.

I wonder how much your bitches enjoy being breeding machines so that you can have fun.


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> You enjoy breeding your dogs? That's the only reason?


Absolutely....I enjoy breeding puppies.

If you read previous posts on this thread you'll see I don't agree there's a profit to be made, it's just an influx of cash when they move to their new homes. It doesn't amount to the cost of keeping and rearing mum and pups.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Absolutely....I enjoy breeding puppies.
> 
> If you read previous posts on this thread you'll see I don't agree there's a profit to be made, it's just an influx of cash when they move to their new homes. It doesn't amount to the cost of keeping and rearing mum and pups.


Such a valid reason to breed ..


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Such a valid reason to breed ..


It's as good a reason as breeding to get the next show prospect to fulfil the enjoyment of showing.

And don't give me the excuse about improving the breed, there are very few breeders that can claim that particular honour.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> It's as good a reason as breeding to get the next show prospect to fulfil the enjoyment of showing.
> 
> And don't give me the excuse about improving the breed, there are very few breeders that can claim that particular honour.


Again I do not show nor do I breed so I have no idea why you keep yapping on at me about that, any more than you keep coming on here yapping about your imaginary dogs! You want us to believe you are so wonderful and your dogs want for nothing, yet you are on a pet forum and you only ever get involved in breeding threads and skulk in the breeding section, really show someone who has NO other interest in dogs than breeding them, no pictures no name no breed yeah that's someone who really love these dogs as pets!


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Again I do not show nor do I breed so I have no idea why you keep yapping on at me about that, any more than you keep coming on here yapping about your imaginary dogs! You want us to believe you are so wonderful and your dogs want for nothing, yet you are on a pet forum and you only ever get involved in breeding threads and skulk in the breeding section, really show someone who has NO other interest in dogs than breeding them, no pictures no name no breed yeah that's someone who really love these dogs as pets!


Why does it bother you so much that you don't know what breed I have? and why would you want to know their names? 
That doesn't prove I'm an ethical breeder, it just proves I'm a private kind of person who doesn't post just for the sake of it.


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> Why does it bother you so much that you don't know what breed I have? and why would you want to know their names?
> That doesn't prove I'm an ethical breeder, it just proves I'm a private kind of person who doesn't post just for the sake of it.


Why does it bother YOU so much that posters don't agree with your ideas on breeding?
You're the one being defensive. 
You're the one who came on here asking if your practices make you a BYB and then had a hissy fit when asked for more information. Why do you have a bee in your bonnet about all this.

And you've posted about a spaniel and a collie. Whether you have more breeds now or not I don't know. But you're certainly not dealing with rare breeds as far as I can tell.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Why does it bother you so much that you don't know what breed I have? and why would you want to know their names?
> That doesn't prove I'm an ethical breeder, it just proves I'm a private kind of person who doesn't post just for the sake of it.


No it proves you only have an interest in dogs for breeding....You my dear are the only one getting defensive? You ask people to make a judgement call on your breeding practices...


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> No it proves you only have an interest in dogs for breeding....You my dear are the only one getting defensive? You ask people to make a judgement call on your breeding practices...


I'm not defensive.....I have many interests, past and present.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I'm not defensive.....I have many interests, past and present.


Mmhmm yet now it just seems to be breeding pet dogs.


----------



## Dogloverlou

I'd have thought you'd take pride in showing your dogs off living in your home and enjoying all the family pursuits that makes them such great pets, Darth....


----------



## MerlinsMum

Darth said:


> And don't give me the excuse about improving the breed, there are very few breeders that can claim that particular honour.


Actually, the majority of breeders don't improve (though they strive for it). What they DO do, is maintain the breed, from generation to generation, and keep it going. Some will spend thousands on bringing new blood from overseas to widen the gene pool. Some will have a few show wins. Others will just be custodians who make sure the breed stays true to its breed standard and doesn't go forth with genetic health issues (as far as possible).

Mainly, the breeders breed *for themselves* - when they want to keep one, and not because their waiting lists are full, or because they want a holiday on the proceeds (if there are any).


----------



## MerlinsMum

Which also ties in neatly with a comment made by Pawsandfeathers a little earlier on in the thread... something like, "they don't do it for the love of it." 

Oh yes they do! Why else would people breed and maintain other kinds of animals and livestock, which sell for very little? There are some breeds of small animals that have been around for 200 years, but are worth very little in monetary terms, plus the equipment setup is highly expensive. Yet there are still folk who want to keep these breeds alive, for the love of it, and so future generations can enjoy them.


----------



## Rafa

Meezey said:


> Mmhmm yet now it just seems to be breeding pet dogs.


Absolutely right.

I suppose we all have hobbies. For some it's walking, for some, it's sports .......... for Darth, it's putting bitches in whelp time and time again and raking in the profits.

What will happen when these bitches are worn out?


----------



## Darth

Sweety said:


> Absolutely right.
> 
> I suppose we all have hobbies. For some it's walking, for some, it's sports .......... for Darth, it's putting bitches in whelp time and time again and raking in the profits.
> 
> What will happen when these bitches are worn out?


Don't go making things up...... "putting bitches in whelp time and time again"......just because I won't say how many dogs I have and how many litters I've bred!

Besides I thought there weren't any profits to be made?

And all my dogs stay with me, they are never rehomed, I've recently lost one at 13... She never had a litter and was never mated, she was'nt bought with that in mind, and was only ever going to be a companion to us.


----------



## RottieRubysMum

Darth said:


> Don't go making things up...... "putting bitches in whelp time and time again"......just because I won't say how many dogs I have and how many litters I've bred!
> 
> Besides I thought there weren't any profits to be made?
> 
> And all my dogs stay with me, they are never rehomed, I've recently lost one at 13... She never had a litter and was never mated, she was'nt bought with that in mind, and was only ever going to be a companion to us.


Why all the secrecy then?


----------



## Darth

RottieRubysMum said:


> Why all the secrecy then?


There isn't any secrecy.....I just don't see there's any reason to say what breed I have, it's totally irrelevant.


----------



## StormyThai

Darth said:


> Don't go making things up...... "putting bitches in whelp time and time again"......just because I won't say how many dogs I have and how many litters I've bred!
> 
> Tell us then, the funny thing is that with a transparent breeder there is no speculation, because...shock, horror, they are open and honest about questions.
> Remember when I said that when a breeder seems cagey about a question it raises huge red flags? You're not helping yourself there at all. There is zero reasons for you not to answer the questions posed to you
> 
> Besides I thought there weren't any profits to be made?
> .


I love how people always come back to the " Thought you said there is no profit" I suggest you reread the thread as this clearly shows you haven't!


----------



## icarepet

Yay money from dogs, kidding! I've been reading the recent posts for some time now since I got in the office, debates and arguments about breeding are fascinating . Sounds like the posts re Caz admitting she's breeding for profit is going around the circle, though honesty is the best policy! But not quite I guess when it comes to breeding dogs. Maybe Caz has a business plan that's why she's making profit lol.

Is breeding dog as companionship for the families considered as BYB/Farming? Just curious, as not every buyers wants to be in the show nor want a working dog but simply want a companionship. Would it matter whether they're KC reg or not?


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## miljar

icarepet said:


> Would it matter whether they're KC reg or not?


Personally I think not. Having a pedigree does not make a dog a better, or worse, sort of pet. If you want a pedigree then fine - otherwise it is like having a tow bar on your car when you don't have a caravan.


----------



## Guest

icarepet said:


> Is breeding dog as companionship for the families considered as BYB/Farming? Just curious, as not every buyers wants to be in the show nor want a working dog but simply want a companionship. Would it matter whether they're KC reg or not?


Show breeders *are* breeding first and foremost companions - that's what most breeds are anyway. 
If you want a dog who looks a certain way and has certain predictable traits, then why not go with a breeder who is actively working to achieve the breed standard? If you want a great dane, go to someone who is breeding dogs to look and act like great danes. If you want a poodle, go to someone who is breeding dogs to look and act like poodles.

But if a family doesn't care about pedigree, why get a pedigree dog? Why not just get any random mutt from the shelter in need of a home?

Which is why I keep asking breeders how is what they are producing any different than what is currently in shelters, pounds, and rescues. If you're not producing anything different, then why produce at all when there is already a pet over population crisis.

If I wanted a specific dog for a specific job - say a livestock guardian for my herd of goats. Then I'm going to go to a breeder who produces working dogs and who has proof that the dogs work and are good at what they do. This is where breeding for purpose fits in.


----------



## Guest

miljar said:


> Personally I think not. Having a pedigree does not make a dog a better, or worse, sort of pet. If you want a pedigree then fine - otherwise it is like having a tow bar on your car when you don't have a caravan.


But temperament *does* make a dog better or worse as a pet. 
Pedigree breeders are not just breeding a "look", they're also breeding temperament.
Arguably showing is a fantastic test of temperament because of what these dogs are asked to do. A dog who does well in the show ring is going to have to have a stable enough temperament to handle showing, something that is often very lacking in the dogs "whatever" breeders produce.

Just read some threads on here in training and behavior. Lots of people are struggling with their pedigree dogs. Where are those breeders? Where is the breeder support? Where is the effort to produce stable, sound dogs? Where is the effort to place dogs in homes that are suitable for them?

And I say this as someone who has a rescue muttdog of unknown origin and a rescue great dane of unknown pedigree and both have great temperaments. But I also have a huge support network in the way of trainer friends and dog people to help me out.


----------



## icarepet

ouesi said:


> Show breeders *are* breeding first and foremost companions - that's what most breeds are anyway.
> If you want a dog who looks a certain way and has certain predictable traits, then why not go with a breeder who is actively working to achieve the breed standard? If you want a great dane, go to someone who is breeding dogs to look and act like great danes. If you want a poodle, go to someone who is breeding dogs to look and act like poodles.
> 
> But if a family doesn't care about pedigree,* why get a pedigree dog*? Why not just get any random mutt from the shelter in need of a home?
> 
> Which is why I keep asking breeders how is what they are producing any different than what is currently in shelters, pounds, and rescues. If you're not producing anything different, then why produce at all when there is already a pet over population crisis.
> 
> If I wanted a specific dog for a specific job - say a livestock guardian for my herd of goats. Then I'm going to go to a breeder who produces working dogs and who has proof that the dogs work and are good at what they do. This is where breeding for purpose fits in.


Some family wants pedigree because:
1) it sounds better for them to say "Yes he/she's a pedigree"
2) They want the specific look because they're cute
3) Potentially for breeding purpose & money

Who to blame if the buyer bred from your puppy and become a BYB? Sure original breeder would like to know about the buyer's background but anyone could lie about why they want that dog. Would you feel responsible that your lovely, adorable, cute, charming bitch puppy become a breeding machine? or say fck it its their problem its not my puppy anymore? So which one are you? This is a general question.


----------



## Darth

ouesi said:


> But temperament *does* make a dog better or worse as a pet.
> Pedigree breeders are not just breeding a "look", they're also breeding temperament.
> Arguably showing is a fantastic test of temperament because of what these dogs are asked to do. A dog who does well in the show ring is going to have to have a stable enough temperament to handle showing, something that is often very lacking in the dogs "whatever" breeders produce.
> 
> Just read some threads on here in training and behavior. Lots of people are struggling with their pedigree dogs. Where are those breeders? Where is the breeder support? Where is the effort to produce stable, sound dogs? Where is the effort to place dogs in homes that are suitable for them?
> 
> And I say this as someone who has a rescue muttdog of unknown origin and a rescue great dane of unknown pedigree and both have great temperaments. But I also have a huge support network in the way of trainer friends and dog people to help me out.


Well.....I've seen a number of dogs in the show ring snapping at judges when they put their hands on them, and struggling to turn when the handler has their mouth held by the lips, just in case...and how can a breeder help if the owners don't come back with problems? With the best will in the world from breeders some new owners just won't stay in contact...no matter how much vetting and contact theirs already been.


----------



## icarepet

ouesi said:


> But temperament *does* make a dog better or worse as a pet.
> Pedigree breeders are not just breeding a "look", they're also breeding temperament.
> Arguably showing is a fantastic test of temperament because of what these dogs are asked to do. A dog who does well in the show ring is going to have to have a stable enough temperament to handle showing, something that is often very lacking in the dogs "whatever" breeders produce.
> 
> *Just read some threads on here in training and behavior. Lots of people are struggling with their pedigree dogs. Where are those breeders? Where is the breeder support? Where is the effort to produce stable, sound dogs? Where is the effort to place dogs in homes that are suitable for them?*
> 
> And I say this as someone who has a rescue muttdog of unknown origin and a rescue great dane of unknown pedigree and both have great temperaments. But I also have a huge support network in the way of trainer friends and dog people to help me out.


So you're basing a stable dog from their temperaments? Surely even they have good temperament they can still turn out entirely different. So you can predict a good temperament even when they're 8wks old, but how would you know when they're only a pup.


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## dogsaintdumb

Difference is, those dogs don't win. A dog that shows any aggression in the show ring is immediately removed from the competition.

@icarepet, this magical thing called "genetics" helps you predict the temperament of the puppies, and then the actual temperament they show at 8 weeks can determine the one they'll show as dogs. It's magical.


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## icarepet

Darth said:


> Well.....I've seen a number of dogs in the show ring snapping at judges when they put their hands on them, and struggling to turn when the handler has their mouth held by the lips, just in case...and how can a breeder help if the owners don't come back with problems? With the best will in the world from breeders some new owners just won't stay in contact...no matter how much vetting and contact theirs already been.


But would breeder really stay in contact even a year later? I don't stay in contact with Ellie's breeder  does that sound stupid or something? I know breeders can give advice and such but its your responsibility to learn your dog than relying on the breeder. Advises are just basically just a guideline not an actual answer to all your dog's problems.


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## dogsaintdumb

I am in contact with the breeders of my two dogs who were purchased from breeders. I was in contact with the breeder of the third but sadly that dog passed away in 2011. I've had my current two since 2005 and 2010...The owners of my puppies are still in contact with me and have been from as early as 2007. I've lost contact with 3/16 puppies in total.


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## Guest

icarepet said:


> Some family wants pedigree because:
> 1) it sounds better for them to say "Yes he/she's a pedigree"
> 2) They want the specific look because they're cute
> 3) Potentially for breeding purpose & money
> 
> Who to blame if the buyer bred from your puppy and become a BYB? Sure original breeder would like to know about the buyer's background but anyone could lie about why they want that dog. Would you feel responsible that your lovely, adorable, cute, charming bitch puppy become a breeding machine? or say fck it its their problem its not my puppy anymore? So which one are you? This is a general question.


I'm not even sure what you're asking? 
Good breeders keep track of their dogs for the life of the dog. I currently know one GSD breeder who sold a female puppy on a spay contract, the owners did not honor that, the bitch had an "oops" litter (yeah right oops) and the breeder has taken the dog back. The pups from that oops litter cannot be registered because the owner did not buy the dog with breeding rights and thus can't register the litter. (This is AKC rules, not sure how KC rules work.)
But my point is, the breeder made sure her pup was not going to be turned in to a breeding machine. She did everything right, the owners turned out to be cons, but because she had put checks in place before selling the pup, was able to take the dog back.

So yes, breeders ARE responsible for what ends up happening to the dogs they produce.


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> Well.....I've seen a number of dogs in the show ring snapping at judges when they put their hands on them, and struggling to turn when the handler has their mouth held by the lips, just in case...and how can a breeder help if the owners don't come back with problems? With the best will in the world from breeders some new owners just won't stay in contact...no matter how much vetting and contact theirs already been.


You have an excuse for everything don't you? 
In AKC a dog who snaps at a judge would be dismissed from the ring and would not place. And yes, I've seen it happen. I can't imagine KC tolerates much less.

And if you microchip your pups with your information, there is no problem when the owner won't stay in touch, your pup is still microchipped to you. But honestly, how often does that really happen that puppy buyers won't stay in touch, and if it IS happening that often, then what are you doing wrong that is causing that to happen?


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## icarepet

dogsaintdumb said:


> I am in contact with the breeders of my two dogs who were purchased from breeders. I was in contact with the breeder of the third but sadly that *dog passed away in 2011*. I've had my current two since 2005 and 2010...The owners of my puppies are still in contact with me and have been from as early as 2007. I've lost contact with 3/16 puppies in total.


Sorry to hear that. Okay at least one breeder here stay in contact with the buyers for years


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## dogsaintdumb

I think all of the PF breeders who are "transparent" have also/will also be keeping in contact with their puppies, LOL.


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## icarepet

dogsaintdumb said:


> I think all of the PF breeders who are "transparent" have also/will also be keeping in contact with their puppies, LOL.


Aha im sure they are they just haven't put their hand up yet, so counting as 1


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## dogsaintdumb

If it's an over-all breeder list, count it as 4 because my three breeders reached out to me as well.


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## Guest

icarepet said:


> But would breeder really stay in contact even a year later?


OMG yes! That's again the difference between an "okay" breeder and a great breeder. The breeders I respect can name every litter, tell you where those dogs are, and do it off the top of their head - they don't even have to look it up.



icarepet said:


> I know breeders can give advice and such but its your responsibility to learn your dog than relying on the breeder. Advises are just basically just a guideline not an actual answer to all your dog's problems.


Why on earth wouldn't you rely on your breeder as a resource? A great breeder will know their lines inside out and backwards, they know their quirks and personalities and what works for them. They have connections throughout the dog world and can point you towards trainers and other puppy buyers who might be of help.


----------



## icarepet

ouesi said:


> OMG yes! That's again the difference between an "okay" breeder and a great breeder. The breeders I respect can name every litter, tell you where those dogs are, and do it off the top of their head - they don't even have to look it up.
> 
> Why on earth wouldn't you rely on your breeder as a resource? *A great breeder* will know their lines inside out and backwards, they know their quirks and personalities and what works for them. They have connections throughout the dog world and can point you towards trainers and other puppy buyers who might be of help.


Exactly a great breeder that's very specific, I didn't say I wouldn't rely on the breeder or their ignore their advise but I'm only saying that big part of it is for you to learn your dog. What if the breeder has suddenly stopped from responding to your questions regardless of their situation, are you just gonna sit around and wait for them to reply to your question?


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## dogsaintdumb

When the breeder of my last breeder-bought dog stopped responding to me, it was an immediate sign that he'd lied to me about pretty much everything (including the D.O.B of my dog  KC didn't clock on to that somehow) and that he wasn't about to take the dog back as he'd assured he would do while he was convincing me to buy his puppy. So no...Typically you'd clock on to the fact you made a bad choice if the breeder continuously ignores your questions and try to sort everything out on your own, which isn't fun. I reached out to the breeder of my other dog who was able to help to an extent. Wasn't even his puppy I was having problems with...


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## Guest

icarepet said:


> So you're basing a stable dog from their temperaments? Surely even they have good temperament they can still turn out entirely different. So you can predict a good temperament even when they're 8wks old, but how would you know when they're only a pup.


Again a resounding YES. Genetics accounts for a huge part of temperament. And temperament is a huge part of what makes a dog a stable dog. And yes, you can predict temperament at 8 weeks (and sooner). A well bred litter of pups is also going to have breed traits as part of their temperament - if the breeder is breeding for that breed. (Which is where we get in to a whole 'nother conversation about watering down breeds to make them more suitable as pets.)

The other big piece is early experiences and how well the breeder has prepared the puppies for life in a pet home. The more the breeder works with the pups from day one, the better prepared the pups will be, the better the breeder will know each pup's personality, and the better chance the pups will have of being placed in an appropriate home. The shy puppy who's not keen on big noises should not go to a home with a bunch of young, rambunctious children for example.



icarepet said:


> Aha im sure they are they just haven't put their hand up yet, so counting as 1


Of the breeders I know personally: 
Greyhound breeder knows where each and every one of her many litters are, and how they're doing, even the ones shipped overseas 
Great dane breeder knows where each and every one of her pups have ended up, can tell you their litter names, what the new home ended up calling them, how they're doing, and for the older litters, what they died of and at what age. (Out of many things she also breeds for longevity in her danes.)
CAS breeder has only bred one litter but knows where each one is how they're doing and their style of work.
Bernese mountain dog breeder, on her 3rd litter in 10 years, another one who breeds for longevity, knows where all the pups are, how they're doing, if they have had any health issues, how long they lived and what they died of.
Pitbull breeder: breeds for temperament, working ability and health, knows where each and every one of his dogs are, how they're doing, what they're doing. 
GSD breeder: has only just started building her program, has 2 litters, 2nd one already has 3 dogs from it working as K9s and doing very well. She is the one who fought to get the "accidentally" bred bitch back, got her back, had her spayed, and will be keeping her indefinitely. She found out about the litter from rumors in the dog world (this is where those connections come in), the dog world is TINY and it's not hard to find out who has what dog from whom. 
There really is no reason for a dog (or breeder) to fall off the face of the earth. If you want to know about your pups, it's easy enough to keep track.



icarepet said:


> Exactly a great breeder that's very specific, I didn't say I wouldn't rely on the breeder or their ignore their advise but I'm only saying that big part of it is for you to learn your dog. What if the breeder has suddenly stopped from responding to your questions regardless of their situation, *are you just gonna sit around and wait for them to reply to your question*?


How on earth did you conclude the bolded from what I have written?
I said a breeder is a great *resource*, not your only resource or that you shouldn't learn your dog. Of course your dog is your responsibility, but why not set yourself up for an easier time learning your dog by using the person who has known the dog since birth and knows those lines inside out and backwards?


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## Magyarmum

I keep in touch with both my dogs breeders ... so you can add another two to the list! In fact Gwylim's breeder only saw him a week ago! When I broke my wrist shortly after buying Gwylim and knowing I couldn't look after the dogs as I live on my own, I phoned him and he immediately offered to look after both my Mini Schnauzer and my Pei. They stayed with him for six weeks. When my Pei had a hematoma on her cornea he was so concerned that he offered to drive us all the way to Slovakia to see the eye specialist he takes his own dogs to for their eye tests ... a round trip of 200 miles. And he's helped in many more ways than I could have expected. The same is true of my Pei's breeder although he lives the other side of the country.

As you have just said Ouesi ... a top class breeder will know and keep track of every puppy he's bred despite their living half way around the world. I know from Robert that he has regular contact from Canada, the States and the UK as well as other European countries where his puppies have gone to .... it's like being part of an extended family!


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## Dogloverlou

Another one in touch with their dog's breeder. It was actually an important factor into finding my next puppy that I have a breeder I can talk to whenever who can offer support and advise, and mine hasn't let me down. They've guided me in regards to training & behaviour and there is nothing greater in sharing pics and achievements with them. It must be a wonderful sense of pride for the breeders themselves to see offspring they've bred go on to do wonderful things. My breeders have recently had two big 'firsts' in dogs they've bred and in which they've been able to share in thanks to puppy owners keeping in touch  I personally don't see why anyone wouldn't want to stay in touch with their dog's breeders, although I think there is this misconception that the breeder would be interfering and demanding/pushy....which hasn't been my experience at least. Even if you do own 'just a pet' from non registered parent's or even crossbreeds, I think having the breeder as backup support and guidance invaluable.


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## rottiepointerhouse

I'm also still in touch with the breeder for my first 3 rotties, despite those dogs being long dead we have remained in touch even though she knows I will never be buying another dog from her (she recently gave up breeding anyway). From the day I brought the first pup home from her she phoned us regularly to see how things were going, offered advice and put us in touch with friends of hers in the breed who were more local to us. Since 2009 our rotties have been rescues but she still phones up regularly to ask about those and I know I could phone her any time to ask advice even about dogs that she didn't breed.


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## Guest

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I know I could phone her any time to ask advice even about dogs that she didn't breed.


Our great danes have been rescues, and I have received wonderful support and encouragement from breeders - these breeders simply care about the breed as a whole, whether it's danes they personally bred, or any dane in need. 
Many breeders are also active in rescue.


----------



## Dogloverlou

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm also still in touch with the breeder for my first 3 rotties, despite those dogs being long dead we have remained in touch even though she knows I will never be buying another dog from her (she recently gave up breeding anyway). From the day I brought the first pup home from her she phoned us regularly to see how things were going, offered advice and put us in touch with friends of hers in the breed who were more local to us. Since 2009 our rotties have been rescues but she still phones up regularly to ask about those and I know I could phone her any time to ask advice even about dogs that she didn't breed.


Same here. I'm in touch with a breeder who obviously hasn't bred Cash, but has been nothing but helpful....even sending me some things in the post from where they live in Belgium.


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> Well.....I've seen a number of dogs in the show ring snapping at judges when they put their hands on them, and struggling to turn when the handler has their mouth held by the lips, just in case...and how can a breeder help if the owners don't come back with problems? With the best will in the world from breeders some new owners just won't stay in contact...no matter how much vetting and contact theirs already been.


Your point is? You will also know and not bother to say that those dogs can never be shown again nor can their prodigy be registered. Secrecy and half truths.. Don't go slagging others when you can't even be open and transparent about your own dogs, again same a Caz's you seem to want to push others under the bus to deflect from yourself...


----------



## Meezey

icarepet said:


> Sorry to hear that. Okay at least one breeder here stay in contact with the buyers for years


I'm great friends with my my first Rottweilers breeders, haven't had a pup from him in over 15 years, but still friends, great friends with Cian's breeder, speak most days have known her for about 12 years only got a pup from her two years ago, KT breeder is one of my best mates.. Meet and know all these people through researching the breed, none of my dogs where shown until 2 years ago with Cian who my partner shows not me, I've never stepped in a show ring and neither will I my dogs are pets my companions, that's the reason chose them.. I became friends with KT breeder over 15 years ago researching Rottweilers, I didn't have a dog from her until about 11 months ago, I didn't pay a penny as she just wanted a good home again she wasn't brought home with the intention of going in the ring....

My Frenchie is from a show breeder too, I've known her for a year or so, we didn't get Eric to show as he is MY dog and my companion and pet.

I love all my dogs dearly.... they want for nothing and they are not kept secret as I have no reason for them to be.. Most people on here know who my dogs breeders are nothing to hide to all these bad evil show breeders..

I personally know the parents of my dogs, and the grandparents and even some of the GGGrand parents. None of the breeders booted dogs out when they got to old to breed or didn't do well in the show ring, yes there are breeds that do that, they are also transparent about doing it, unlike the person in this thread who wants to slag people but also hide behind a keyboard...


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> None of the breeders booted dogs out when they got to old to breed or didn't do well in the show ring, yes there are breeds that do that, they are also transparent about doing it, unlike the person in this thread who wants to slag people but also hide behind a keyboard...


If you mean me, I don't "boot" my dogs out, neither do I show, or "slag" people off.

I've been "transparent " about everything except the breed I own, I stand by what I said....it's totally irrelevant.

It must really worry you, if it didn't you'd stop harping on about it.

You obviously can't let it go


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## RottieRubysMum

Darth said:


> If you mean me, I don't "boot" my dogs out, neither do I show, or "slag" people off.
> 
> I've been "transparent " about everything except the breed I own, I stand by what I said....it's totally irrelevant.
> 
> It must really worry you, if it didn't you'd stop harping on about it.
> 
> You obviously can't let it go


You weren't transparent about how many litters you've bred either. The secrecy makes us think you have something to hide, in your previous threads, you've been very inquisitive about what dogs people breed and how many litters they've bred, but you hold your cards so close to your chest?


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> If you mean me, I don't "boot" my dogs out, neither do I show, or "slag" people off.
> 
> I've been "transparent " about everything except the breed I own, I stand by what I said....it's totally irrelevant.
> 
> It must really worry you, if it didn't you'd stop harping on about it.
> 
> You obviously can't let it go


No your right I won't, it doesn't bother me as such, just think you have a bare faced cheek coming out with the comments you to people, and I will pull you each time you wade in to a thread questioning people acting the big I am.....


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## Darth

RottieRubysMum said:


> You weren't transparent about how many litters you've bred either. The secrecy makes us think you have something to hide, in your previous threads, you've been very inquisitive about what dogs people breed and how many litters they've bred, but you hold your cards so close to your chest?


Like I said....you just can't let it go.

I've explained how I breed my puppies and why, it doesn't matter if I've bred 2 litters or 22, Dalmations or Yorkshire Terriers, I still breed under the same conditions, health tested parents with good temperaments, no back to back litters and everything else you can think of in place.


----------



## Rafa

Darth .............. Ever heard the saying "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"?

Because you claim to have seen show dogs with 'iffy' temperaments, it doesn't make what you are doing right.

I bred Parson Russell Terriers at the very beginning of that breed having Kennel Club Recognition. We had a small gene pool and most of us who were showing pitched in together to breed pups who would be better than their Parents and to try and breed to the Standard and get the breed the respect and recognition deserved.

Two bitch pups of mine went to be the foundation of the Breed in Holland. Two went to Sweden, one to Belgium and one to the USA.

There are PRTs being shown to this day descended from my bitches.

I was passionate and still am about the Breed, although I haven't bred a litter in fifteen years. I can remember every pup from every litter and am still in touch with many people who took my pups to this day.

I do not understand why what Breed you are producing is such a heavily guarded secret.

Do you have bitches of different breeds? Whatever is selling well?


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## Meezey

Darth said:


> Like I said....you just can't let it go.
> 
> I've explained how I breed my puppies and why, it doesn't matter if I've bred 2 litters or 22, Dalmations or Yorkshire Terriers, I still breed under the same conditions, health tested parents with good temperaments, no back to back litters and everything else you can think of in place.


So I am betting your a licensed breeder. It does matter how many litters you have year.. You know it does hence not saying....


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## Darth

Meezey said:


> No your right I won't, it doesn't bother me as such, just think you have a bare faced cheek coming out with the comments you to people, and I will pull you each time you wade in to a thread questioning people acting the big I am.....


I think you've got me mixed up with someone else I don't recall acting the big I am...


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## Meezey

Darth said:


> I think you've got me mixed up with someone else I don't recall acting the big I am...


You don't recall much do you......


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## Darth

Meezey said:


> You don't recall much do you......


Enough to get by with......


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## Dogloverlou

I just don't understand not wanting to show off your dog and be open about the breed Darth. You claim your bitch is much loved and part of the family and I'd have thought like the rest of us here you'd enjoy showing off her pics and talking about day to day stuff she gets up to.

I can only assume the reason you don't want to admit to your breed is because it is very popular and you know the responses that will ensue.


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## Darth

Dogloverlou said:


> I just don't understand not wanting to show off your dog and be open about the breed Darth. You claim your bitch is much loved and part of the family and I'd have thought like the rest of us here you'd enjoy showing off her pics and talking about day to day stuff she gets up to.
> 
> I can only assume the reason you don't want to admit to your breed is because it is very popular and you know the responses that will ensue.


There's no ulterior motive why I don't post photos etc.....I just don't feel the need.


----------



## Dogloverlou

Darth said:


> There's no ulterior motive why I don't post photos etc.....I just don't feel the need.


Well, of course that's your right. I know there a few people on here who don't post pics or talk about their own dogs much. But I've always found it a little out of place to be honest. That's one of the joys of forums such as this for me to be able to share my dogs with other like minded people.


----------



## icarepet

Darth said:


> There's no ulterior motive why I don't post photos etc.....I just don't feel the need.


But we want to see your cute pups


----------



## Darth

icarepet said:


> But we want to see your cute pups


I don't have any pups.....


----------



## icarepet

Darth said:


> I don't have any pups.....


Your dog rather, sorry I misread the post above.


----------



## Guest

@Darth , a quick look at your started threads shows you got a sable collie bitch in June 2012, had a bitch in whelp in January 2013, and your blue roan spaniel in whelp in August 2014. 
You posted all this willingly, not sure why you're making such a huge secret out of it now, unless of course you just like stirring things up, which I suspect you very much do


----------



## StormyThai

ouesi said:


> @Darth , a quick look at your started threads shows you got a sable collie bitch in June 2012, had a bitch in whelp in January 2013, and your blue roan spaniel in whelp in August 2014.
> You posted all this willingly, not sure why you're making such a huge secret out of it now, unless of course you just like stirring things up, which I suspect you very much do


To say that there aren't enough show breeders of collies is just laughable...I'm in touch with 3 that produce stunning dogs, and I'm not even involved with the breed as such so I'm sure I could find plenty more if I took the time to look


----------



## Rafa

Collies? Oh Good Lord. Enough said. Wonderful dogs in the right hands, but the World ain't short of them.

I too believe you're enjoying the attention, negative as it may be.


----------



## Guest

To be fair, @Darth didn't say she had bred her collie, just the spaniel...


----------



## lovemybabies

So please Caz58... Tell me how much money you invested besides the price of your female have you spent on vet care during the pregnancy, post delivery, and care of those 5 puppies ? Did you have money set aside for an emergency c section? 

I bet you bought your puppy shots online and your wormer too and no actual vet costs... 

I bet you didn't have anyone who purchased your puppies sign a contract that would protect the puppies from EVER being put in a shelter. I bet you just charged your asking price put that little bit a cash in your pocket feeling pretty darn smart... 

The difference between you and a puppy mill is just the number .... 

Have you ever thought about hiring your own uterus out to breed a child for someone? Atleast you would have proper care ... More so than you gave your pet. Since breeding for money is all you thought about .


----------



## Darth

ouesi said:


> To be fair, @Darth didn't say she had bred her collie, just the spaniel...


True....I haven't bred my collie.


----------



## Darth

Sweety said:


> Collies? Oh Good Lord. Enough said. Wonderful dogs in the right hands, but the World ain't short of them.
> 
> I too believe you're enjoying the attention, negative as it may be.


You don't even know what type of collie I have!

Up until this recent thread I thought you were quite sensible with your advice and comments, why they change?


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> You don't even know what type of collie I have!
> 
> Up until this recent thread I thought you were quite sensible with your advice and comments, why they change?


Love this so you start a thread down a certain route, have a temper tantrum about being berated and slagged off when people ask questions to give you an answer. You asked the sodding question, then you in return attack other breeders, other people's dogs, members etc all to deflect from yourself. If you didn't want to be under the spotlight why be so attention seeking? You've a cheek saying others can't leave it when you keep coming back and doing your attention seeking dance...


----------



## Darth

StormyThai said:


> To say that there aren't enough show breeders of collies is just laughable...I'm in touch with 3 that produce stunning dogs, and I'm not even involved with the breed as such so I'm sure I could find plenty more if I took the time to look


Who said there weren't enough show breeders?


ouesi said:


> @Darth , a quick look at your started threads shows you got a sable collie bitch in June 2012, had a bitch in whelp in January 2013, and your blue roan spaniel in whelp in August 2014.
> You posted all this willingly, not sure why you're making such a huge secret out of it now, unless of course you just like stirring things up, which I suspect you very much do


See.....not so secretive after all.

It was all there to find, all it took was someone smart enough to get off their high horse to look.


----------



## Darth

Meezey said:


> Love this so you start a thread down a certain route, have a temper tantrum about being berated and slagged off when people ask questions to give you an answer. You asked the sodding question, then you in return attack other breeders, other people's dogs, members etc all to deflect from yourself. If you didn't want to be under the spotlight why be so attention seeking? You've a cheek saying others can't leave it when you keep coming back and doing your attention seeking dance...


I didn't start the thread..

I think your imaginations running away with you.... Again


----------



## Meezey

Darth said:


> I didn't start the thread..
> 
> I think your imaginations running away with you.... Again


I know you didn't start it, stop being facetious. You flounced in demanding attention then making a big drama out of it when you got it. Screams narcissism  You've bored me now....


----------



## Guest

Darth said:


> I didn't start the thread..
> 
> I think your imaginations running away with you.... Again


No, she said "start the thread *down a certain route*" aren't you the one admonishing people for not reading posts?
You were the one who asked "does this make me a BYB", that's what Meezey was clearly referring to.



Darth said:


> See.....not so secretive after all.
> 
> It was all there to find, all it took was someone smart enough to get off their high horse to look.


Again, way to pretend, deflect, and distort.
You have repeatedly refused to answer what breeds you have, claiming it wasn't relevant. (It is, I'll get to that in a minute.) 
You could have simply said, I've already mentioned what dog I bred, but instead of being forthcoming, you deflected the question, pretended it wasn't relevant, and ranted about no one knowing what they're talking about and making things up.

IOW you just want to keep shitstirring when we could be having a productive conversation about ethical breeding practices.

So... attempting to discuss ethical, responsible breeding practice, let's address the breed you're breeding and why it is relevant shall we?
Spaniels. No shortage of them - but let's set that aside for a second.

Let's talk about a *responsible* breeder's role here, because here is a great example of how all those pieces we've been talking about fit in. 
Spaniels are showing up more and more with some really weird, OTT resource guarding. This is probably genetic, since it's showing up more prevalently in just one breed. (My own suspicion is that it has something to do with the retrieving gene going awry since you also see weird RG in goldens too.)

A breeder who has kept up with his/her puppy buyers for the life of those pups will find out from the puppy buyers if RG has become problematic. This will alert that breeder to watch certain lines for this trait and definitely not breed specific dogs showing this behavior - keep it out of the gene pool to begin with.
When researching studs, if you're working with another great breeder, they too will have kept up with their dog's progeny and know if there are issues and where in the line to avoid them.

Environmentally there is also a lot a good breeder can do to prevent RG from the get-go. Keeping an eye on every feeding and carefully watching pups' behavior and tolerances, and intervening and adjusting as needed to prevent the guarding from developing.

So there are genetic and environmental factors a breeder would be working on to address any potential guarding issue in both the breed as a whole and their lines.

At which point @Darth would say, "none of my puppies have resource guarding issues". And then all those things that Darth is saying are irrelevant in determining if someone is a decent breeder or not crop up again. 
If you don't keep in touch with your puppy buyers for the life of the dog, how would you know? 
If you're not researching every nook and cranny of those pedigrees you're matching up, who would you know? 
If you're not watching every feeding and know what to look for and how to address it, how would you know if there are issues in your puppies?


----------



## dogsaintdumb

ouesi said:


> ...how would you know if there are issues in your puppies?


_Magic..._


----------



## StormyThai

Darth said:


> If you knew anything at all about dogs and breeding you'd know there isn't enough show or competition people breeding to meet the needs of the average dog owner who wants a pet, its an absolute necessity to encourage good pet breeders.





Darth said:


> Who said there weren't enough show breeders?


Yeah...you did


----------



## dogsaintdumb

> The majority of breeders sell all their puppies, if there were enough from only show and competition breeders pet breeders wouldn't be able to sell their puppies, or vice versa..


There's a post where you actually say that there aren't enough, but CBA to find it in all honesty, and this one says the same thing anyway...Just in a different way.

There are enough quality breeders. People are just too lazy and impatient to go to one, as they know they may have to do some work and wait a while before they get a puppy. I can understand problems finding a decent breeder in countries where dogs aren't typically kept. Even then there is the option of importing from elsewhere, or just travelling further. It's just more difficult. Kind of like it's more difficult to find a good breeder than it is to hop over to gumtree and find a rare pink Spinoladoodlepoo.

Buy from gumtree; go ahead. Just don't complain when your dog is riddled with health and behavioural problems. In the decent breeder world, you get what you pay for. In the "I felt like breeding so did and now I've got a Chipomadoraspitz free to good home" world, you get what you fall for.


----------



## lovemybabies

DecantPet said:


> So, dogs too get C-section? I bet I didn't know that. But I agree with you on a number of points in your thread.


Yes... which costs approximately 3000.00 or more ( depending on the time of day.... at office... 3000.00 just for the surgery itself... then you have the blood workup and medications ) then add ALOT more to that if you are looking at 24 hour emergency veterinarian


----------



## icarepet

lovemybabies said:


> Yes... which costs approximately 3000.00 or more ( depending on the time of day.... at office... 3000.00 just for the surgery itself... then you have the blood workup and medications ) then add ALOT more to that if you are looking at 24 hour emergency veterinarian


How often dogs get C-section?


----------



## smokeybear

icarepet said:


> How often dogs get C-section?


 Depends on the breed for instance it was par for the course for English Bulldogs to be delivered via C Section. New rules by the KC (2012) mean that all such births have to be reported to the KC by the vets and furthermore the progeny of bitches which have already had two C sections will not be registered with the KC unless there are some overriding issues involved. .


----------



## lovemybabies

That would depend on the breed. The breeds like the English Bulldog, Brussels Griffon, French Bulldog, or any other Brac breed ( large domed skulls ) are notoriously famous for C-sections. Small litters can often times not trigger labor and too big of a litter can tire the female out where she just has not even energy left to pass the last of the litter.



Even with the best of breeding... there are also other risks with the female. My friend lost her Grand Champion female King Charles Caviler last night to kidney failure with a sudden onset of pyrometra following a heat cycle. It happened fast and she is devastated. People don't talk about the ugly part of breeding when they talk about profit.... that is because what they are breeding are disposable in their eyes.


----------



## Meezey

Friend just have a litter of Rottweilers via c section too.


----------



## dogsaintdumb

I know someone who had a Lab (field) need a C-section.


----------



## Meezey

25% of women have c sections now too...


----------



## smokeybear

Yep the too posh to push brigade!


----------



## icarepet

I see, thought they'd only need c-section if litter is too big and there's an issue giving birth naturally.


----------



## lovemybabies

smokey... you are a hoot. lol  I think at 3 days and 18 hours ( the last 24 was hard labor and on Pitocin and never diatlated past 3cm) I earned mine


----------



## dogsaintdumb

The litter one of my younger JRT's had almost needed to be delivered by caesarean. I paid the fee and left her with the vet, was halfway home and got a call to say she'd started giving it her all just before they put her under. Went back and she ended up having her litter in about 25 minutes and was home the same day. Awkward little dog, but glad she didn't need the procedure. It always worries me when they have to go under anaesthetic.

The only time they need C-sections is when they have a problem whelping, or if a problem can be predicted.

@lovemybabies...Ouch! Bravo, though. I hope they gave you some kind of Tolerance Level of the Year Award.


----------



## smokeybear

lovemybabies said:


> smokey... you are a hoot. lol  I think at 3 days and 18 hours ( the last 24 was hard labor and on Pitocin and never diatlated past 3cm) I earned mine


 I thought someone would bite.............  Yes some C Sections are necessary but a lot are not..........


----------



## icarepet

dogsaintdumb said:


> The litter one of my younger JRT's had almost needed to be delivered by caesarean. I paid the fee and left her with the vet, was halfway home and got a call to say she'd started giving it her all just before they put her under. Went back and she ended up having her litter in about 25 minutes and was home the same day. Awkward little dog, but glad she didn't need the procedure. It always worries me when they have to go under anaesthetic.
> 
> The only time they need C-sections is when they have a problem whelping, or if a problem can be predicted.
> 
> @lovemybabies...Ouch! Bravo, though. I hope they gave you some kind of Tolerance Level of the Year Award.


Aha that saved you some money then.


----------



## smokeybear

icarepet said:


> I see, thought they'd only need c-section if litter is too big and there's an issue giving birth naturally.


 It is not usually a question of the size of the litter, more the size of the pups, particularly if one has got stuck and threatens the viability of its siblings, lilmiting the number of C sections per bitch means that some of the excesses of some breeders can be modified.


----------



## icarepet

smokeybear said:


> It is not usually a question of the size of the litter, *more the size of the pups*, particularly if one has got stuck and threatens the viability of its siblings, lilmiting the number of C sections per bitch means that some of the excesses of some breeders can be modified.


ah yes that too, I've always wondered mating a small dog with a big one like those pomsky such an odd size difference to mate though lol


----------



## smokeybear

icarepet said:


> ah yes that too, I've always wondered mating a small dog with a big one like those pomsky such an odd size difference to mate though lol


 If the sire is small and the bitch is big, happy days, the reverse is not...............


----------



## Meezey

icarepet said:


> ah yes that too, I've always wondered mating a small dog with a big one like those pomsky such an odd size difference to mate though lol


Large size difference can happen within the same breed my friends dog had a c section as a large male pup ( run free) was stuck the c section was done to save other 4 puppies.


----------



## smokeybear

Meezey said:


> Large size difference can happen within the same breed my friends dog had a c section as a large male pup ( run free) was stuck the c section was done to save other 4 puppies.


 Absolutely as I said earlier It is not usually a question of the size of the litter, more the size of the pups, particularly if one has got stuck and threatens the viability of its siblings, .


----------



## Meezey

smokeybear said:


> Absolutely as I said earlier It is not usually a question of the size of the litter, more the size of the pups, particularly if one has got stuck and threatens the viability of its siblings, .


I just wanted to clarify that to icarepet, just incase they though it happened in different size and breed of dam and sire.

I believe and might be wrong Boston's have 91% c section rate


----------



## caz58

I posted my first comment last week, about how I thought breeding dogs must make money. 
I still stand by that, and still don`t agree that there is no profit from a litter of pups, however it is spent.
However, I have thought a lot about your comments, and I hadn`t realised just how many people were breeding from their pet dogs, until it came to advertising my litter, and looking at all the other adverts.
I remember the days when everyone had a mongrel, and dogs were "free to good home"!
Now, everyone seems to want either a pedigree dog, or a designer dog!!
I don`t know whether that is a step forward, or a step back, because the money that people are willing to pay for these dogs is astronomical.
This has given rise to the problem that I have been accused of being part of, (and after much thought, I have to agree), of certain breeds being overbred, and potentially ending up in rescue.
Also of puppy farmers breeding these pedigree dogs on a huge scale, with no regard at all to the welfare of the dogs he/she breeds from, or the puppies that are produced.
I definitely got off on the wrong foot with everyone, and I apologise.
I had never intended to breed from my dog more than twice, but I don`t think I will be breeding from her again.
You are obviously very caring people, and very concerned about the welfare of dogs.
I too am concerned about their welfare, and didn`t see that producing five puppies was adding to the problem, but I now see it from your point of view.
I do, however think that there must be a better way for people to be able to purchase pets.
The average pet purchaser is being left wide open to puppy farmers, and probably aren`t even aware that they are buying from one despite the guidelines on things to look out for.
When I was young, people used to open the front door in the morning and kick the dog out for the day! 
I hasten to add, that my parents didn`t do that!
I think that particular practice only stopped with the introduction of dog wardens.
I think that in some ways, we have come a long way towards promoting responsible dog ownership, but in other ways, we have gone backwards.
I think dogs have gone from being a friend and companion, to being some kind of fashion accessory, or status symbol.
What can be done, apart from "people like me" not breeding dogs?
If all the puppy farms, home breeders and back yard breeders were to stop, would there be enough dogs to meet the demand?
Sorry this is such a long post (I know I said I wouldn`t post again!). Hope you haven`t fallen asleep!


----------



## Meezey

caz58 said:


> I posted my first comment last week, about how I thought breeding dogs must make money.
> I still stand by that, and still don`t agree that there is no profit from a litter of pups, however it is spent.
> However, I have thought a lot about your comments, and I hadn`t realised just how many people were breeding from their pet dogs, until it came to advertising my litter, and looking at all the other adverts.
> I remember the days when everyone had a mongrel, and dogs were "free to good home"!
> Now, everyone seems to want either a pedigree dog, or a designer dog!!
> I don`t know whether that is a step forward, or a step back, because the money that people are willing to pay for these dogs is astronomical.
> This has given rise to the problem that I have been accused of being part of, (and after much thought, I have to agree), of certain breeds being overbred, and potentially ending up in rescue.
> Also of puppy farmers breeding these pedigree dogs on a huge scale, with no regard at all to the welfare of the dogs he/she breeds from, or the puppies that are produced.
> I definitely got off on the wrong foot with everyone, and I apologise.
> I had never intended to breed from my dog more than twice, but I don`t think I will be breeding from her again.
> You are obviously very caring people, and very concerned about the welfare of dogs.
> I too am concerned about their welfare, and didn`t see that producing five puppies was adding to the problem, but I now see it from your point of view.
> I do, however think that there must be a better way for people to be able to purchase pets.
> The average pet purchaser is being left wide open to puppy farmers, and probably aren`t even aware that they are buying from one despite the guidelines on things to look out for.
> When I was young, people used to open the front door in the morning and kick the dog out for the day!
> I hasten to add, that my parents didn`t do that!
> I think that particular practice only stopped with the introduction of dog wardens.
> I think that in some ways, we have come a long way towards promoting responsible dog ownership, but in other ways, we have gone backwards.
> I think dogs have gone from being a friend and companion, to being some kind of fashion accessory, or status symbol.
> What can be done, apart from "people like me" not breeding dogs?
> If all the puppy farms, home breeders and back yard breeders were to stop, would there be enough dogs to meet the demand?
> Sorry this is such a long post (I know I said I wouldn`t post again!). Hope you haven`t fallen asleep!


Fair play to you, and much respect for coming back and posting this


----------



## Catharinem

You can make a profit on breeding a litter of puppies, but none, or very little over the life of the bitch - assuming she is a pet as well as a breeder, and lives her retirement with you. Say you have a litter of 6 puppies, which you sell for £650 each. Say each puppy costs around £150 in health checks, vaccinations (either first or first and second depending how quickly they are homed), registration, extra food and heating costs, washing dirty bedding and microchipping. So you have £500 profit per puppy or £3,000 per litter - yay! You can only register 4 litters, maximum 5 under exceptional circumstances, so call it 4. 4X £3,000 = £12,000. Looking brilliant so far! But your bitch might live 12 years (more if you're lucky and if a long lived breed), which makes it £1,000 per annum (not including her own purchase price). Now take off £100 or so for vaccination boosters, wormers and flea prep, £900/year over her lifetime. Insurance of approx. £20/month (depending on breed and area) = £240 a year, leaving £660 per year "profit" from your bitch per annum, or £12.70 per week - just about enough to feed her! You can have lots of pleasure from breeding a litter ( occasionally heartbreak), but you'll never get rich.


----------



## Rafa

caz58 said:


> I posted my first comment last week, about how I thought breeding dogs must make money.
> I still stand by that, and still don`t agree that there is no profit from a litter of pups, however it is spent.
> However, I have thought a lot about your comments, and I hadn`t realised just how many people were breeding from their pet dogs, until it came to advertising my litter, and looking at all the other adverts.
> I remember the days when everyone had a mongrel, and dogs were "free to good home"!
> Now, everyone seems to want either a pedigree dog, or a designer dog!!
> I don`t know whether that is a step forward, or a step back, because the money that people are willing to pay for these dogs is astronomical.
> This has given rise to the problem that I have been accused of being part of, (and after much thought, I have to agree), of certain breeds being overbred, and potentially ending up in rescue.
> Also of puppy farmers breeding these pedigree dogs on a huge scale, with no regard at all to the welfare of the dogs he/she breeds from, or the puppies that are produced.
> I definitely got off on the wrong foot with everyone, and I apologise.
> I had never intended to breed from my dog more than twice, but I don`t think I will be breeding from her again.
> You are obviously very caring people, and very concerned about the welfare of dogs.
> I too am concerned about their welfare, and didn`t see that producing five puppies was adding to the problem, but I now see it from your point of view.
> I do, however think that there must be a better way for people to be able to purchase pets.
> The average pet purchaser is being left wide open to puppy farmers, and probably aren`t even aware that they are buying from one despite the guidelines on things to look out for.
> When I was young, people used to open the front door in the morning and kick the dog out for the day!
> I hasten to add, that my parents didn`t do that!
> I think that particular practice only stopped with the introduction of dog wardens.
> I think that in some ways, we have come a long way towards promoting responsible dog ownership, but in other ways, we have gone backwards.
> I think dogs have gone from being a friend and companion, to being some kind of fashion accessory, or status symbol.
> What can be done, apart from "people like me" not breeding dogs?
> If all the puppy farms, home breeders and back yard breeders were to stop, would there be enough dogs to meet the demand?
> Sorry this is such a long post (I know I said I wouldn`t post again!). Hope you haven`t fallen asleep!


I think it's very much to your credit that you've come back to say what you have.

I'm so glad that you're having second thoughts about breeding.


----------



## rocco33

Catharinem said:


> You can make a profit on breeding a litter of puppies, but none, or very little over the life of the bitch - assuming she is a pet as well as a breeder, and lives her retirement with you. Say you have a litter of 6 puppies, which you sell for £650 each. *Say each puppy costs around £150 in health checks, vaccinations (either first or first and second depending how quickly they are homed),* registration, extra food and heating costs, washing dirty bedding and microchipping. So you have £500 profit per puppy or £3,000 per litter - yay! You can only register 4 litters, maximum 5 under exceptional circumstances, so call it 4. 4X £3,000 = £12,000. Looking brilliant so far! But your bitch might live 12 years (more if you're lucky and if a long lived breed), which makes it £1,000 per annum (not including her own purchase price). Now take off £100 or so for vaccination boosters, wormers and flea prep, £900/year over her lifetime. Insurance of approx. £20/month (depending on breed and area) = £240 a year, leaving £660 per year "profit" from your bitch per annum, or £12.70 per week - just about enough to feed her! You can have lots of pleasure from breeding a litter ( occasionally heartbreak), but you'll never get rich.


Wow - do you breed? £150 cost per puppy. That's a pretty low figure to me, although it obviously depends on the size of the litter.
Stud fee £500
Health tests ££450
Progesterone tests £200
Vet fees (CHV, checks etc) £150
General consumables £250
Extra food for bitch & weaning £400 (I feed raw)
And that's if everything goes smoothly - neither does it include things like fuel to stud, time off work etc. That works out at at £325 per puppy for your litter of 6. Bearing in mind that I might keep one I will only be selling 5!
4 litters is too many IMO, if I haven't got something that I like from 2 matings, then IMO, I shouldn't be breeding. 3 litters is the absolute max I would consider and I have yet to do it.


----------



## rocco33

duplicate


----------



## Catharinem

rocco33 said:


> Wow - do you breed? £150 cost per puppy. That's a pretty low figure to me, although it obviously depends on the size of the litter.
> Stud fee £500
> Health tests ££450
> Progesterone tests £200
> Vet fees (CHV, checks etc) £150
> General consumables £250
> Extra food for bitch & weaning £400 (I feed raw)
> And that's if everything goes smoothly - neither does it include things like fuel to stud, time off work etc. That works out at at £325 per puppy for your litter of 6. Bearing in mind that I might keep one I will only be selling 5!
> 4 litters is too many IMO, if I haven't got something that I like from 2 matings, then IMO, I shouldn't be breeding. 3 litters is the absolute max I would consider and I have yet to do it.


Costs were a minimum example to show how you don't get rich from breeding, as the previous poster had said she still didn't believe breeders didn't make a profit.. That didn't include emergencies in the middle of the night or caesarians, and assumed you had your own health tested, compatible breeding dogs, which were fertile and had good parenting skills. I believe 4 litters is the KC regulations limit for registration, hence why that example. The point I was trying to make was that although on paper the price of a pedigree puppy is quite a lot, it's not when you consider the overall picture. Of course if someone wants to mate without health tests, sell as young as possible, not vet check, and churn out 2 litters a year before "rehoming" their spent bitch then they will make a lot more money than any real breeder ever would.


----------



## Hanlou

On the subject of finding a good breeder - I used the KC website as a starter then asked on here I think.... I found an excellent and very reputable breeder very quickly. I would have had to wait of course which I expected. In the end we adopted Teddy (a puppy himself) instead but I'm still friends with the breeder. (I let her know immediately, by the way!) I would be very happy to go to her with any concerns even though we never had a dog from her, she's just a lovely person.

She breeds Papillons and Malinois - and even from her FB posts you can see how conscientious she is and how much love and work goes into her litters. She doesn't breed very often at all though. 

We'd never had a puppy before and only had a rescue prior to this but we found it quite easy to find a reputable breeder.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

caz58 said:


> I posted my first comment last week, about how I thought breeding dogs must make money.
> I still stand by that, and still don`t agree that there is no profit from a litter of pups, however it is spent.
> However, I have thought a lot about your comments, and I hadn`t realised just how many people were breeding from their pet dogs, until it came to advertising my litter, and looking at all the other adverts.
> I remember the days when everyone had a mongrel, and dogs were "free to good home"!
> Now, everyone seems to want either a pedigree dog, or a designer dog!!
> I don`t know whether that is a step forward, or a step back, because the money that people are willing to pay for these dogs is astronomical.
> This has given rise to the problem that I have been accused of being part of, (and after much thought, I have to agree), of certain breeds being overbred, and potentially ending up in rescue.
> Also of puppy farmers breeding these pedigree dogs on a huge scale, with no regard at all to the welfare of the dogs he/she breeds from, or the puppies that are produced.
> I definitely got off on the wrong foot with everyone, and I apologise.
> I had never intended to breed from my dog more than twice, but I don`t think I will be breeding from her again.
> You are obviously very caring people, and very concerned about the welfare of dogs.
> I too am concerned about their welfare, and didn`t see that producing five puppies was adding to the problem, but I now see it from your point of view.
> I do, however think that there must be a better way for people to be able to purchase pets.
> The average pet purchaser is being left wide open to puppy farmers, and probably aren`t even aware that they are buying from one despite the guidelines on things to look out for.
> When I was young, people used to open the front door in the morning and kick the dog out for the day!
> I hasten to add, that my parents didn`t do that!
> I think that particular practice only stopped with the introduction of dog wardens.
> I think that in some ways, we have come a long way towards promoting responsible dog ownership, but in other ways, we have gone backwards.
> I think dogs have gone from being a friend and companion, to being some kind of fashion accessory, or status symbol.
> What can be done, apart from "people like me" not breeding dogs?
> *If all the puppy farms, home breeders and back yard breeders were to stop, would there be enough dogs to meet the demand?*
> Sorry this is such a long post (I know I said I wouldn`t post again!). Hope you haven`t fallen asleep!


Good for you. In answer to your question above rescues are overflowing with lovely dogs of all breeds/shapes/sizes and ages so I'm sure there would be enough to go round at least for the foreseeable future.


----------



## SingingWhippet

caz58 said:


> I posted my first comment last week, about how I thought breeding dogs must make money.
> I still stand by that, and still don`t agree that there is no profit from a litter of pups, however it is spent.
> However, I have thought a lot about your comments, and I hadn`t realised just how many people were breeding from their pet dogs, until it came to advertising my litter, and looking at all the other adverts.
> I remember the days when everyone had a mongrel, and dogs were "free to good home"!
> Now, everyone seems to want either a pedigree dog, or a designer dog!!
> I don`t know whether that is a step forward, or a step back, because the money that people are willing to pay for these dogs is astronomical.
> This has given rise to the problem that I have been accused of being part of, (and after much thought, I have to agree), of certain breeds being overbred, and potentially ending up in rescue.
> Also of puppy farmers breeding these pedigree dogs on a huge scale, with no regard at all to the welfare of the dogs he/she breeds from, or the puppies that are produced.
> I definitely got off on the wrong foot with everyone, and I apologise.
> I had never intended to breed from my dog more than twice, but I don`t think I will be breeding from her again.
> You are obviously very caring people, and very concerned about the welfare of dogs.
> I too am concerned about their welfare, and didn`t see that producing five puppies was adding to the problem, but I now see it from your point of view.
> I do, however think that there must be a better way for people to be able to purchase pets.
> The average pet purchaser is being left wide open to puppy farmers, and probably aren`t even aware that they are buying from one despite the guidelines on things to look out for.
> When I was young, people used to open the front door in the morning and kick the dog out for the day!
> I hasten to add, that my parents didn`t do that!
> I think that particular practice only stopped with the introduction of dog wardens.
> I think that in some ways, we have come a long way towards promoting responsible dog ownership, but in other ways, we have gone backwards.
> I think dogs have gone from being a friend and companion, to being some kind of fashion accessory, or status symbol.
> What can be done, apart from "people like me" not breeding dogs?
> If all the puppy farms, home breeders and back yard breeders were to stop, would there be enough dogs to meet the demand?
> Sorry this is such a long post (I know I said I wouldn`t post again!). Hope you haven`t fallen asleep!


Thank you for coming back and posting this, you have my upmost respect for not only taking the posts people made on board but returning to this thread and saying so


----------



## MerlinsMum

Hanlou said:


> She breeds Papillons and Malinois - and even from her FB posts you can see how conscientious she is and how much love and work goes into her litters.


Ah, I know who you mean!  yes, she's a brilliant example of a top-notch reputable breeder. If only they were all like her!


----------



## Spellweaver

caz58 said:


> I posted my first comment last week, about how I thought breeding dogs must make money.
> I still stand by that, and still don`t agree that there is no profit from a litter of pups, however it is spent.
> However, I have thought a lot about your comments, and I hadn`t realised just how many people were breeding from their pet dogs, until it came to advertising my litter, and looking at all the other adverts.
> I remember the days when everyone had a mongrel, and dogs were "free to good home"!
> Now, everyone seems to want either a pedigree dog, or a designer dog!!
> I don`t know whether that is a step forward, or a step back, because the money that people are willing to pay for these dogs is astronomical.
> This has given rise to the problem that I have been accused of being part of, (and after much thought, I have to agree), of certain breeds being overbred, and potentially ending up in rescue.
> Also of puppy farmers breeding these pedigree dogs on a huge scale, with no regard at all to the welfare of the dogs he/she breeds from, or the puppies that are produced.
> I definitely got off on the wrong foot with everyone, and I apologise.
> I had never intended to breed from my dog more than twice, but I don`t think I will be breeding from her again.
> You are obviously very caring people, and very concerned about the welfare of dogs.
> I too am concerned about their welfare, and didn`t see that producing five puppies was adding to the problem, but I now see it from your point of view.
> I do, however think that there must be a better way for people to be able to purchase pets.
> The average pet purchaser is being left wide open to puppy farmers, and probably aren`t even aware that they are buying from one despite the guidelines on things to look out for.
> When I was young, people used to open the front door in the morning and kick the dog out for the day!
> I hasten to add, that my parents didn`t do that!
> I think that particular practice only stopped with the introduction of dog wardens.
> I think that in some ways, we have come a long way towards promoting responsible dog ownership, but in other ways, we have gone backwards.
> I think dogs have gone from being a friend and companion, to being some kind of fashion accessory, or status symbol.
> What can be done, apart from "people like me" not breeding dogs?
> If all the puppy farms, home breeders and back yard breeders were to stop, would there be enough dogs to meet the demand?
> Sorry this is such a long post (I know I said I wouldn`t post again!). Hope you haven`t fallen asleep!


Well said and kudos to you for taking on board what people have been saying. I donlt know if I can answer your question though - except to say that not being enough dogs to meet demand would not be an excuse for unethical breeding.


----------



## Burrowzig

icarepet said:


> Sorry to hear that. Okay at least one breeder here stay in contact with the buyers for years


I'm in touch with Kite's breeder, nearly 6 years on. And I keep tabs on the litter she had - got bounced all over by one of them just a couple of weeks back, and get updates on all of them via facebook.


----------



## Mary72

Meezey said:


> Most people I know, end up making a loss from breeding, but that's not why they do it.  DNA test, elbows, hips, eyes, hearts, stud fees, vet care, food, worming, weaning, microchipping all free dontcha know.......


Hi I wonder if anyone can help me. I was given a dog nine months ago and now the previous owner wants her back to breed her. He paid for her and the paperwork is in his name, his microchip, I kept asking for the paperwork and he justnemailed it. What do I do? The children love her she is now our family pet? Heartbroken and stressed.


----------



## lostbear

Mary72 said:


> Hi I wonder if anyone can help me. I was given a dog nine months ago and now the previous owner wants her back to breed her. He paid for her and the paperwork is in his name, his microchip, I kept asking for the paperwork and he justnemailed it. What do I do? The children love her she is now our family pet? Heartbroken and stressed.


Get her spayed. He can't breed her then.

Also, if you have incurred any costs in looking after "his" dog, then you are entitled to the money for her food, medical expenses (if any) grooming bills and anything you bought for her e.g. bed, bowls. I would also charge for my time in walking her, grooming her and boarding her. Make it too expensive for him to get her back. But definitely get her spayed.

He's left her with you nine months - he'd have to really convince a court that he hadn't given her too you when he hasn't offered you any cash.


----------



## newfiesmum

lostbear said:


> Get her spayed. He can't breed her then.
> 
> Also, if you have incurred any costs in looking after "his" dog, then you are entitled to the money for her food, medical expenses (if any) grooming bills and anything you bought for her e.g. bed, bowls. I would also charge for my time in walking her, grooming her and boarding her. Make it too expensive for him to get her back. But definitely get her spayed.
> 
> He's left her with you nine months - he'd have to really convince a court that he hadn't given her too you when he hasn't offered you any cash.


You read my mind. Get her spayed, today if possible. How bloody dare they? This dog is not there for anybody to just decide they might make some money out of her when and if they feel like it. They want to take her away from a loving home, to go somewhere where they couldn't give a flying wotsit and put her through all that? You get her spayed and in the meantime, tell this person that you had her spayed as soon as you got her. I am quite disgusted by this.


----------



## lostbear

newfiesmum said:


> You read my mind. Get her spayed, today if possible. How bloody dare they? This dog is not there for anybody to just decide they might make some money out of her when and if they feel like it. They want to take her away from a loving home, to go somewhere where they couldn't give a flying wotsit and put her through all that? *You get her spayed and in the meantime, tell this person that you had her spayed as soon as you got her.* I am quite disgusted by this.


You could maybe also say that you got her spayed on the vet's advice. If you can, get an appointment with the Citizen's Advice Bureau - dog law is quite specialised, but they would be able to give you some general advice.

I honestly don't know how he can demand the dog back (legally speaking). Okay - all the paperwork is in his name, but he has left her with you for nine months. He hasn't paid you to take care of her or even given you money for her food. You have a *very* strong argument for him having given you the dog (after all - nobody is going to look after a dog - food, med bills, exercise, etc for nothing for someone else). Courts aren't stupid - they will be realise that the dog was given to you. He can't physically take the dog off you. Don't give her to him under any circumstances. If he causes trouble. go to the police and tell them he is threatening you (which he is).

Your very sad post is a huge argument for getting a dog neutered asap if you don't intend to breed, or if, like this, it is a gift and the previous owner has kept the paperwork.

If you feel he is a threat, is there a relative you could leave her with until she has been spayed?

Just out of interest, what breed is she? And why did he giver her to you? Was he just fed up looking after her, did his landlord tell him no pets or what? Whatever the reason, he CAN'T demand he back as and when he feels like it. If he's changed his mind, that's tough!


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## Catharinem

What was said in the emails when you asked for paperwork? Agree, get her spayed as soon as can book appointment.


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## rocco33

Mary72 said:


> Hi I wonder if anyone can help me. I was given a dog nine months ago and now the previous owner wants her back to breed her. He paid for her and the paperwork is in his name, his microchip, I kept asking for the paperwork and he justnemailed it. What do I do? The children love her she is now our family pet? Heartbroken and stressed.


Did you have any contract? What did you agree ? How do you know this person who 'gave' you a dog?
I agree that the best thing would be to get her spayed.


----------



## rocco33

Mary72 said:


> Hi I wonder if anyone can help me. I was given a dog nine months ago and now the previous owner wants her back to breed her. He paid for her and the paperwork is in his name, his microchip, I kept asking for the paperwork and he justnemailed it. What do I do? The children love her she is now our family pet? Heartbroken and stressed.


PS - paperwork is irrelevant to ownership.


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## Nicky10

We thought she had pyometra *shrugs* only thing we could do was spay


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## LittleHolly

Mary72 said:


> Hi I wonder if anyone can help me. I was given a dog nine months ago and now the previous owner wants her back to breed her. He paid for her and the paperwork is in his name, his microchip, I kept asking for the paperwork and he justnemailed it. What do I do? The children love her she is now our family pet? Heartbroken and stressed.


hi likes been said id get her speyed asap, id also get in touch with the citizens advice if your in the uk and maybe have her stay with a famioy member if you can for now as 2 similar stories i know of one was my husband (before i met him) who was given a saluki once she was at an age to breed from the old owners wanted her back my husband said no and one day not long after when he went into a shop he had her tied up outside only to find her gone when he got out hes in no doubt these people stole her so thry coukd breed from her (very rough bunch of guys aswell) sadly my husband coukdnt do anything as 1 he didnt know where these people were their names etc. And there was no proof she was ever his dog. I still feel he should have fought for her though qnd tried to get her back. Another story was a one in the newspaper about 6months ago of someone asking for an akita back they had given to someone and ended up breaking into the house and stealing the dog. Im not sure what happened regarding this story though. Not trying to scare you with hose stories but if he person is quite rough with a reputation id personally take extra safety measures for your dog for now. Really hope you get this sorted.


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## Doodle_guy_USA

I do believe the type of dog you breed factors into it. Obviously, if you breed dogs that have a reputation for inherent health issues, your cost/profit margin will suffer. 
I haven't had a lot of experience breeding, but my friend bred for 14 years. Most of that time he bred yellow, black, and chocolate labs. Even with champion bloodlines he never made much money, but then he started breeding labradoodles. Less health issues due to genetic "vigor", and 3 times the purchase price meant a very visible increase in profit and decrease in cost. Not to say he never had issues again, but obviously there's a difference in cost involved depending on your selected breed, and a vast difference in purchase price. Easy money? Certainly not. But I've seen the difference by observation of his changes.


----------



## Doodle_guy_USA

Mary72 said:


> Hi I wonder if anyone can help me. I was given a dog nine months ago and now the previous owner wants her back to breed her. He paid for her and the paperwork is in his name, his microchip, I kept asking for the paperwork and he justnemailed it. What do I do? The children love her she is now our family pet? Heartbroken and stressed.


It's already been said, but I'll reiterate, spay her. Looks like your only other option is to fight a losing court battle. Once she's spayed, he won't want her.


----------



## rocco33

Doodle_guy_USA said:


> I do believe the type of dog you breed factors into it. Obviously, if you breed dogs that have a reputation for inherent health issues, your cost/profit margin will suffer.
> I haven't had a lot of experience breeding, but my friend bred for 14 years. Most of that time he bred yellow, black, and chocolate labs. Even with champion bloodlines he never made much money, but then he started breeding labradoodles. * Less health issues due to genetic "vigor", and 3 times the purchase price meant a very visible increase in profit and decrease in cost*. Not to say he never had issues again, but obviously there's a difference in cost involved depending on your selected breed, and a vast difference in purchase price. Easy money? Certainly not. But I've seen the difference by observation of his changes.


Not true - the labradoodle BMI for hips is higher than labradors. So much of genetic 'vigor'. Actually, there is a degree of truth to hybrid vigour however, it is very small and only applies to first crosses. Although I take the point that these unscrupulous breeders charge much higher prices for labradoodles than labradors (or poodles).


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## lostbear

rocco33 said:


> Not true -* the labradoodle BMI for hips is higher than labradors. So much of genetic 'vigor'.* Actually, there is a degree of truth to hybrid vigour however, it is very small and only applies to first crosses. Although I take the point that these unscrupulous breeders charge much higher prices for labradoodles than labradors (or poodles).


Dead right!

I think as well that there is a huge difference between a dog which has "earned" the right to breed by being fitter, faster, stronger - things that evolution would tend to in feral or even stray dogs - and a dog that is being bred because it can produce a nice little expensive litter. These latter dogs can have anything wrong with them, and there is nothing to say that the puppies they produce won't have the sire's dodgy hips AND the dam's PRA )or whatever). Putting two breeds together does not automatically mean that they cancel out each other's weak points. You'll only get healthy pups if you have healthy parents. And people who don't know genetics (I include myself in this category - it really makes my brain hurt) and pretend that they do and everything in the garden is lovely, are nothing but frauds.

I see litteres - particularly for French bulldogs, for some reason - which are advertised with a string of rubbish in the body of the advert obviously meant to impress
e.g. http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classif...reg-french-bulldog-puppies-south-shields.html Which states  "Dad is Black and Tan (AT/A, DD, BB) carries Blue and chocolate!" 

and
http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classif...ted-kc-reg-ay-at-d-d-bb-ky-ky-darlington.html

Well - what the hell does that mean? (this isn't the worst I've seen - most are much worse, but sod's law mean that there wasn't one when I wanted it.)

These pups are very special, though as their parents can apparently levitate. 
http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classif...r-and-lilac-producer-puppies-east-boldon.html

The most dreadful thing about these ads though, is that they are obviously aimed at people who want to breed. If you want a puppy as a pet, you aren't bothered what colours they "carry". You want good health, good temperament and possibly some particular characteristics )e.g. non-shedding). Why would it matter if your apricot poodle had a chocolate grand-dad or whatever - you aren't ever going to see that in your dog. These crappy ads are aimed at people who want to make money out of animals. They should be banned.


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## DecantPet

All I know is that they all make money at some point.


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## SpicyBulldog

caz58 said:


> I posted my first comment last week, about how I thought breeding dogs must make money.
> I still stand by that, and still don`t agree that there is no profit from a litter of pups, however it is spent.


Then you do not know the definition of *PROFIT.*



DecantPet said:


> All I know is that they all make money at some point.


Seriously? No way. If what you mean by "make money" is profit then no. Just because you have a transaction, where money changes hands, it doesn't mean the receiver actually made money.


----------



## AceOfSpades113

If you breed right, and want to set the pups up for life, you won't make a penny. Feeding, health testing, ultrasound, whelping box, supplements, endless hours, and thats before the puppies are born. Then the fun really begins with vets, helping mum where required, introducing them to things they will experience in life such as the hoover, shaking of bags, grass, concrete, carpet.. Then its time to maybe think about reservations, socialising with other animals (dogs, cats, rabbits, everything.) looking into people, spending countless hours finding the perfect homes that fit each personality of the pup, and lets not even start on the lifetime of support you should offer, possibly having to take back an out of control, possibly aggressive dog five years later and begin the fun of paying behaviourists and trainers to help find its problem. Any profit you make quickly goes out the window, when your dogs get older vet bills will rise, the only reason to breed is if your dogs have more to give them just a pretty face and wagging tail, which while it might be disappointing, most don't. Perfect pets don't make perfect breeding candidates.


----------



## newfiesmum

Doodle_guy_USA said:


> It's already been said, but I'll reiterate, spay her. Looks like your only other option is to fight a losing court battle. Once she's spayed, he won't want her.


Since you are in the USA and this is a UK forum, you really have no idea whether the OP is likely to win. I reiterate what everyone has said - Get her spayed. If he cared about the dog at all, he wouldn't have given her away and he wouldn't want her back just to breed from her. Is she a family member or a commodity?


----------



## Beccajubb2015

What is idexx testing?


----------



## Rafa

Lazhar said:


> Well, this is the exact same speech a lot of "activities and businesses" said once upon a time until they realised that yes, puppy buyers they are targeting have a ceiling price, but if you search in the right place, you will find people ready to pay more.
> 
> I am in one very special business, too. The ticket brokerage. People are not ready to pay more than the face value or a slightly inflated price, well, unless you search where the right high-spending customers are. Then, you can.
> 
> Again, like I said in my original post, most breeders are not business-savvy and there is nothing wrong with that. Just, it's not because you can't do it that nobody else can. There is nothing that prevent one to be a great breeder and a great entrepreneur.


Well, this old post of yours is a good one.

When I was selling my puppies, my first priority was the best possible home, not searching round for who would pay the highest price.


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## joelmarks

A dog breeder can be a a rewarding experience if you can deal with all the hassle involve in your dog breeding activities. You can take pleasure in the joy of adding a new member into a new family, as well as create lifelong friendships.


----------



## foxi

Hi, I just recieved a min pin who needed a new home. Ive never had a small dog before. I found out that he needs to be neutered & his shots arent up to date. Hes 2 yrs old (I think) His previous owners were what I would call very irresponsible. Even though, the dog is a pedigree,they couldnt find any of his papers. I dont care about his pedigree papers but I would like his medical history. Im trying now to just get the vets name. Anyway, I wanted to ask if it is alright to get a 3 year rabies shot or should I just get a 1 year shot?


----------



## newfiesmum

foxi said:


> Hi, I just recieved a min pin who needed a new home. Ive never had a small dog before. I found out that he needs to be neutered & his shots arent up to date. Hes 2 yrs old (I think) His previous owners were what I would call very irresponsible. Even though, the dog is a pedigree,they couldnt find any of his papers. I dont care about his pedigree papers but I would like his medical history. Im trying now to just get the vets name. Anyway, I wanted to ask if it is alright to get a 3 year rabies shot or should I just get a 1 year shot?


Are you in the UK? If you are, there is no need for a rabies shot at all unless you are planning on taking the dog abroad, which is yet another question.


----------



## Daisy the Great Dane

I understand where you're coming from. I used to breed pedigree Great Danes here in nz and they're also a lot just to breed one litter. Especially the care of the puppies until they are with their new families.


----------



## Kieranp0710

This person ranting really instead of spending a bomb why don't you just have your dog as a pet and not breed her if it's putting you in the red. People do think breeders earn loads of money because of puppy farms that I'm really sure your not. So when somebody comes to buy a pup off you and you haven't got 60 dogs barking in the background then why wouldn't they trust you and know your not just in it for money. I don't see anything wrong with having 2 well trained good behaviour dogs that are health checked and kc reg breeded cared for and given everything they need in the correct order. These dogs can be healthy aswell you know .I think you have gone abit too deep into things but that's my opinion


----------



## Burrowzig

Kieranp0710 said:


> *I don't see anything wrong *with having 2 well trained good behaviour dogs that are health checked and kc reg breeded cared for and given everything they need in the correct order. These dogs can be healthy aswell you know .I think you have gone abit too deep into things but that's my opinion


I do. Dogs for breeding should be health TESTED not checked. This involves checking DNA for inheritable problems and ensuring that no affected pups could be produced. And as for breeding your own two dogs together - that's something good breeders don't do. They seek out the best dog to complement their bitch, be in terms of conformation if it's a show dog, or (like mine) working ability, taking account of health and temperament throughout.


----------



## Burrowzig

DecantPet said:


> All I know is that they all make money at some point.


No you don't. You assume. Wrongly.


----------



## Rafa

Kieranp0710 said:


> This person ranting really instead of spending a bomb why don't you just have your dog as a pet and not breed her if it's putting you in the red. People do think breeders earn loads of money because of puppy farms that I'm really sure your not. So when somebody comes to buy a pup off you and you haven't got 60 dogs barking in the background then why wouldn't they trust you and know your not just in it for money. I don't see anything wrong with having 2 well trained good behaviour dogs that are health checked and kc reg breeded cared for and given everything they need in the correct order. These dogs can be healthy aswell you know .I think you have gone abit too deep into things but that's my opinion


Can we assume then that you have not had relevant health tests carried out on your pregnant bitch?

Has she been hip and elbow scored? Has the stud dog?


----------



## SpicyBulldog

Burrowzig said:


> I do. Dogs for breeding should be health TESTED not checked. This involves checking DNA for inheritable problems and ensuring that no affected pups could be produced. And as for breeding your own two dogs together - that's something good breeders don't do. They seek out the best dog to complement their bitch, be in terms of conformation if it's a show dog, or (like mine) working ability, taking account of health and temperament throughout.


100% agree on health / DNA testing. Vet check isn't going to tell you if your dog is carrying a recessive disease.

Can't say I agree that good breeders never / shouldn't breed two of their own dogs together. Depends on the dogs, responsible breeders don't have intact male dogs to only, always breed them to other people's dogs "stud them out". I trust good breeders to make the best, most knowledgeable breeding decision they can whether they use a male they own / co own or one from the other side of the world.


----------



## Kieranp0710

Sweety said:


> Can we assume then that you have not had relevant health tests carried out on your pregnant bitch?
> 
> Has she been hip and elbow scored? Has the stud dog?


Correct . I think a lot of people are way too cautious these days


----------



## Kieranp0710

Kieranp0710 said:


> Correct . I think a lot of people are way too cautious these days


And I tell you for why not many people at all ask these questions when buying a dog as a lot of people don't even look into it properly. Now I won't just sell pups to anyone who's willing to grow money at me I want to see a nice family that will bond with the pup before going anywhere.


----------



## SpicyBulldog

Kieranp0710 said:


> Correct . I think a lot of people are way too cautious these days


I'm not sure what you mean by "way too cautious these days"? I haven't observed that- I don't think, but I'm unsure what you are meaning by it.



Kieranp0710 said:


> And I tell you for why not many people at all ask these questions when buying a dog as a lot of people don't even look into it properly. Now I won't just sell pups to anyone who's willing to grow money at me I want to see a nice family that will bond with the pup before going anywhere.


People need to be educated to ask the right questions. Even if they don't know to ask, that doesn't at all negate the breeders responsibility to breed properly.


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## Dogloverlou

Kieranp0710 said:


> Correct . I think a lot of people are way too cautious these days





Kieranp0710 said:


> And I tell you for why not many people at all ask these questions when buying a dog as a lot of people don't even look into it properly. Now I won't just sell pups to anyone who's willing to grow money at me I want to see a nice family that will bond with the pup before going anywhere.


Be sure to remember to tell your new puppy owners that if they end up with a crippled puppy in severe pain with HD that they're just 'over-reacting' and there was no need to test the parents as no one would ask anyway 

So basically you've seen cash signs from having two entire dogs, saved yourself ANY expense in making sure you're breeding from tested parents, and are laughing all the way to the bank when your naïve puppy owners come knocking.

Health testing is recommended for a reason. Just yesterday I saw a heartbreaking post about a litter of Newfoundland puppies 4 of which have been diagnosed with a very severe heart defect that could have been prevented had the parents been heart screened before they was bred. The puppies have an uncertain fate ahead of them now. There is no cure, and they could live weeks, months, or even years, but they're ticking time bombs and the heartbreak that will bring to their new owners is immense, not to mention the costs of life long vet visits & treatment. You owe it to the lives you're creating to make sure you're doing your best to prevent them from suffering genetic, inheritable diseases so they go on to give those loving homes you speak about a lifetime of happiness, & stack the deck in their favour for good health.


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## Rafa

Kieranp0710 said:


> Correct . I think a lot of people are way too cautious these days





Kieranp0710 said:


> And I tell you for why not many people at all ask these questions when buying a dog as a lot of people don't even look into it properly.


Oh, I do agree. How silly and over the top to try and ensure that pups are born healthy and free from inherited defects.

And, your second statement is so telling it's ridiculous. You haven't bothered with the trouble or expense of having your dogs tested because most people are unaware of the fact that they should be?

Cashing in on the naivety of purchasers for your pups. Shameful.

You do know that you're a backyard breeder, don't you? Please be in no doubt about that. Unscrupulous to say the very least.

So what if you do sell pups that will become crippled early in life? So long as the money is in your pocket, why should you care, hey?


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## Kieranp0710

Dogloverlou said:


> Be sure to remember to tell your new puppy owners that if they end up with a crippled puppy in severe pain with HD that they're just 'over-reacting' and there was no need to test the parents as no one would ask anyway
> 
> So basically you've seen cash signs from having two entire dogs, saved yourself ANY expense in making sure you're breeding from tested parents, and are laughing all the way to the bank when your naïve puppy owners come knocking.
> 
> Health testing is recommended for a reason. Just yesterday I saw a heartbreaking post about a litter of Newfoundland puppies 4 of which have been diagnosed with a very severe heart defect that could have been prevented had the parents been heart screened before they was bred. The puppies have an uncertain fate ahead of them now. There is no cure, and they could live weeks, months, or even years, but they're ticking time bombs and the heartbreak that will bring to their new owners is immense, not to mention the costs of life long vet visits & treatment. You owe it to the lives you're creating to make sure you're doing your best to prevent them from suffering genetic, inheritable diseases so they go on to give those loving homes you speak about a lifetime of happiness, & stack the deck in their favour for good health.


and this is what I mean you automatically assume the worst for the pups. My sister has had lunas dad and my aunt has had her mother for years even generations also the stud we PAID FOR was a full registered kc working dog with awards and a good hip score in the family history all confirmed so yep that's why she hasn't had it.


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## Kieranp0710

SpicyBulldog said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "way too cautious these days"? I haven't observed that- I don't think, but I'm unsure what you are meaning by it.
> 
> People need to be educated to ask the right questions. Even if they don't know to ask, that doesn't at all negate the breeders responsibility to breed properly.


People have to start somewhere and with breeders in the family nothing wrong with abit more advice


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## Kieranp0710

Sweety said:


> Oh, I do agree. How silly and over the top to try and ensure that pups are born healthy and free from inherited defects.
> 
> And, your second statement is so telling it's ridiculous. You haven't bothered with the trouble or expense of having your dogs tested because most people are unaware of the fact that they should be?
> 
> Cashing in on the naivety of purchasers for your pups. Shameful.
> 
> You do know that you're a backyard breeder, don't you? Please be in no doubt about that. Unscrupulous to say the very least.
> 
> So what if you do sell pups that will become crippled early in life? So long as the money is in your pocket, why should you care, hey?


You really are wierd pull your toungue out of your Anus


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## Guest

Kieranp0710 said:


> You really are wierd pull your toungue out of your Anus


*weird*
*tongue*


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## Rafa

Kieranp0710 said:


> and this is what I mean you automatically assume the worst for the pups. My sister has had lunas dad and my aunt has had her mother for years even generations also the stud we PAID FOR was a full registered kc working dog with awards and a good hip score in the family history all confirmed so yep that's why she hasn't had it.


Fanciful nonsense.

A conscientious Breeder does everything possible to ensure the worst doesn't happen to the pups and their new owners.

You haven't troubled yourself with any of that.

You're an unscrupulous, money grabbing, Backyard Breeder. Shame on you.


Kieranp0710 said:


> You really are wierd pull your toungue out of your Anus


I'm all kinds of weird love, but I never bred crippled pups because it was more economical that way.


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## Guest

@Kieranp0710 serious answer. 
Labs are not a breed that is exactly thin on the ground. There really isn't any reason to not do full health tests on every dog being bred. Especially x-rays as the breed is notorious for both hip and elbow dysplasia. 
Because dysplasia is a polygenetic trait, it's in the breed's best interest for as many dogs to be tested as possible and those test scores published in a public, searchable database. That data can then guide not only breeding decisions, but can also offer useful information for those looking to find markers and causes for the disease. The more we know, the better able we are to prevent the issue to begin with. 
Plenty of passionate owners in the breed have dogs they have no intention of breeding tested for the sake of this collection of data. It also helps to have a baseline should anything happen to the dog later in life.

It's simply the responsible thing to do....


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## Dogloverlou

Kieranp0710 said:


> and this is what I mean you automatically assume the worst for the pups. My sister has had lunas dad and my aunt has had her mother for years even generations also the stud we PAID FOR was a full registered kc working dog with awards and a good hip score in the family history all confirmed so yep that's why she hasn't had it.


I'm sure the breeder of the Newfoundland litter I mentioned didn't think of the worse case scenario either. Of course it's only the poor pups who suffer as a consequence of the breeder's ignorance.

In a breed such as Labs there really is no excuse not to health test. You should mention the fact you haven't health tested to prospective buyers too & not try to dupe them into believing anything else.


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## simplysardonic

Kieranp0710 said:


> You really are wierd pull your toungue out of your Anus


Please refrain from personal attacks just because you are getting answers (or in this case, facts) you don't like.


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## Rafa

OP. There is another fact you need to be aware of.

Any conscientious Breeder, which you say you are, will make it clear to any purchaser of one of their pups that, should they be unable to keep that pup at any stage in it's life, the pup must be returned.

How will you feel, way in the future, if someone asks you to take back a 5 year old dog with hip dysplasia, needing thousands of pounds worth of surgery?

What will you do?


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## SpicyBulldog

Kieranp0710 said:


> and this is what I mean you automatically assume the worst for the pups. *My sister has had lunas dad and my aunt has had her mother for years *even generations also the stud we PAID FOR was a full registered kc working dog with awards and a good hip score in the family history all confirmed so yep that's why she hasn't had it.


Not sure what your point is?


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## Kieranp0710

Sweety said:


> OP. There is another fact you need to be aware of.
> 
> Any conscientious Breeder, which you say you are, will make it clear to any purchaser of one of their pups that, should they be unable to keep that pup at any stage in it's life, the pup must be returned.
> 
> How will you feel, way in the future, if someone asks you to take back a 5 year old dog with hip dysplasia, needing thousands of pounds worth of surgery?
> 
> What will you do?


Pet insurance you must of heard of it


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## Kieranp0710

simplysardonic said:


> Please refrain from personal attacks just because you are getting answers (or in this case, facts) you don't like.


I didnt ask for answers if u read it I just state my opinion and here we are with all you freaks assuming the worst as usual I know my girl and didn't just go for any stud so you all can just eat crap because it's all yous talk


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## Kieranp0710

Sweety said:


> OP. There is another fact you need to be aware of.
> 
> Any conscientious Breeder, which you say you are, will make it clear to any purchaser of one of their pups that, should they be unable to keep that pup at any stage in it's life, the pup must be returned.
> 
> How will you feel, way in the future, if someone asks you to take back a 5 year old dog with hip dysplasia, needing thousands of pounds worth of surgery?
> 
> What will you do?


Oh and it will be a part of the family as it will be my girls little girl boy


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## lullabydream

Kieranp0710 said:


> Pet insurance you must of heard of it


How naïve...

Pet insurance will not cover a dog with a pre existing condition


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## SusieRainbow

@Kieranp0710, please stop being so rude and agressive in your responses.


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## Guest

Wait. 
Am I understanding correctly? 
It's okay to breed a dog with possible genetic conditions because pet insurance will cover it? 
That doesn't even make sense!


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## lullabydream

ouesi said:


> Wait.
> Am I understanding correctly?
> It's okay to breed a dog with possible genetic conditions because pet insurance will cover it?
> That doesn't even make sense!


Absolutely doesn't make sense..

Certain breeds and congenital conditions are often excluded anyway...not necessarily hip dysplasia, but certain others are...


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## Rafa

Kieranp0710 said:


> Pet insurance you must of heard of it


I have heard of it, yes.

However, what you say doesn't make any sense.

Firstly, whose insurance? I assume you are not going to take out insurance for every pup you sell and you cannot force the new owners of your pups to do so.

And, insurance for a pre-existing condition? Oh no.

Your bitch has not been hip or elbow scored. She could well pass very real problems to her pups. You are responsible for that and insulting other forum members doesn't do your credibility much good.


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## Kieranp0710

lullabydream said:


> How naïve...
> 
> Pet insurance will not cover a dog with a pre existing condition


Just looked that up have we ? You know what swivel on shit the lot if you


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## Rafa

Duplicate post.


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## Kieranp0710

Sweety said:


> I have heard of it, yes.
> 
> However, what you say doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Firstly, whose insurance? I assume you are not going to take out insurance for every pup you sell and you cannot force the new owners of your pups to do so.
> 
> And, insurance for a pre-existing condition? Oh no.
> 
> Your bitch has not been hip or elbow scored. She could well pass very real problems to her pups. You are responsible for that and insulting other forum members doesn#t change a thing.


Could being the word you all use well come back to me when you have got figures of this and I might not change my mind


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## Rafa

Kieranp0710 said:


> Could being the word you all use well come back to me when you have got figures of this and I might not change my mind


Eh?


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## SusieRainbow

That's enough !


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## Dogloverlou

Kieranp0710 said:


> I didnt ask for answers if u read it I just state my opinion and here we are with all you freaks assuming the worst as usual I know my girl and didn't just go for any stud so you all can just eat crap because it's all yous talk


Well we know what kind of response your poor puppy buyers will get if/when they run into trouble with their dog. Charming.


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## Burrowzig

Kieranp0710 said:


> Correct . I think a lot of people are way too cautious these days


So the avoidance of bringing a pup into the world with painful joint problems that mean they dog can't walk properly, that cost thousands to fix, is 'way too cautious'?

I call it responsible.


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## Rachel hill33rayhill

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought I'd start this discussion, because it often comes up that people who breed, will make money. It's assumed, that at some point, over their *breeding career* there will be a profit.
> 
> I'd like to dispel that myth, at some points in time, you may end up cash rich, ie, you have a lot of cash in your hand, but that does not mean you are in profit.
> 
> So let's look at the costs, health testing for my two breeds is quite extensive, on average, I'd suggest it costs approx £700 each, including petrol costs driving to people who will take good quality plates. If anything isn't right, then that's at least £50 invested, which is the cost of the cheapest health test, for no return.
> 
> Equipment, I spent several hundred pounds on equipment for whelping, some of which can be used again, I need a new whelping box, I think mine cost about £70 from memory including delivery, and I went through various amounts of drugs which have a use by date so I will need them again. I'm guessing on average I've probably spent about £180 on things that I either made use of, or have gone past their sell by date, but bought in just in case I needed them.
> 
> Progesterone testing, at £60 a pop, driving it up to Idexx and paying for the vet to draw bloods, I reckon I spent at least £500 for five progesterone tests for Tau.
> 
> Stud dog fees and travel, Probably another £600 all told, so petrol and stud dog fees included.
> 
> Scans and ongoing treatment during pregnancy, probably about another £200 for a couple of trips, including a scan to confirm pregnancy.
> 
> Then you've got your increased bills, food etc, all of which soon hike up your utility bills by several hundred pounds over a short period. I know for a fact I was £1.5k in debt by the end of £2012, mostly down to the litter I had, I use very little otherwise.
> 
> And then for me, I may have come close to even, but Tau needed an emergency C-section, and then two pups died after trying to treat them, which in itself was close to £2.7k. I got £3k in payment for the five remaining pups. Work it out for yourself, those who think everyone is in it to make money, think again, and none of the money can ever make up for all of the hard work the heart ache of putting your bitch through a c-section (and spay) and losing pups that you've done your best to try and pull through.
> 
> So no, not everyone breeds for money, and if you think that's true of someone you're buying a pup from, then maybe you need to ask if you can find someone who breeds for something else.
> 
> Just to carry that on, and I've alluded to this in another thread, I'm probably going to be close to spending £3k on health testing and *campaigning* my two youngsters by the new year, and plan to travel to Europe to possibly see if I can find the right dog for Rhuna, pending on health test results, and how she pans out, although I can't see her temperament and ability being an issue. That's not a holiday, I don't have holidays, because my dogs come first, the dogs will stay at home in the care of one of the few people I trust with them, while I check out possible suitors.
> 
> Sorry for a bit of a rant, but it really is something that annoys me when people assume you are making vast sums of money from breeding, when it isn't always the case, I have lost lots of money so far from even breeding just the one litter. I did health tests on Tau's sister only to decide because her elbow plates weren't good, not to go ahead. I don't ever count on recouping that money, I don't want to, that's not what I'm involved with *breeding* for.


I was actually just wondering about this today when I found you post. A couple years ago I thought I'd get a female and breed with my male. I didn't want to just for the money alone, but that was part of it. I also was interested because when I was looking for a chi I couldn't find one within my budget and wanted to see someone in my shoes have an easier time or a family be able to give there child a dog to grow up with and be able to afford it. My chi is just your standard 5lb. Chi he's perfect but doesn't scream showdog or prime pedigree so I wouldn't go and charge people as if they were any more then what they were. Thank God I researched obsessively,and realized how much goes into it and how under qualified I am to mess around with several little living souls. So I do realize that breeders are not doing it just for the money so I wonder what are the reasons breeders out there are breeding there dogs. From the impression I got it seemed like even breeders without morals would have a hard time making much monet in the long run. So I'm just curious what reasons breeders out there have for breeding there dogs?


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## Rafa

I bred because I had a breed which had just been recognised by the Kennel Club and I wanted to show.

We had a limited circle who were breeding for the same reasons as me, to establish a typy. healthy dog, fit for purpose and conforming to the Breed Standard.


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## simplysardonic

Rachel hill33rayhill said:


> I was actually just wondering about this today when I found you post. A couple years ago I thought I'd get a female and breed with my male. I didn't want to just for the money alone, but that was part of it. I also was interested because when I was looking for a chi I couldn't find one within my budget and wanted to see someone in my shoes have an easier time or a family be able to give there child a dog to grow up with and be able to afford it. My chi is just your standard 5lb. Chi he's perfect but doesn't scream showdog or prime pedigree so I wouldn't go and charge people as if they were any more then what they were. Thank God I researched obsessively,and realized how much goes into it and how under qualified I am to mess around with several little living souls. So I do realize that breeders are not doing it just for the money so I wonder what are the reasons breeders out there are breeding there dogs. *From the impression I got it seemed like even breeders without morals would have a hard time making much monet in the long run*. So I'm just curious what reasons breeders out there have for breeding there dogs?


Actually it's the complete opposite, the breeders with the least scruples are the ones who cut corners, talk the talk & dupe naive people into buying their poorly bred dogs.

And then there's the people who have the same moral stance as these breeders, they know but don't care about what goes on behind the scene to make the cute puppies.

In all honesty, while your heart might be in the right place, breeding for affordable dogs to make other people happy is really not a good reason to breed, rescues are full of dogs that were bred because it seemed like a 'nice idea'.


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## Silly cats and dogs

Rafa said:


> I bred because I had a breed which had just been recognised by the Kennel Club and I wanted to show.
> 
> We had a limited circle who were breeding for the same reasons as me, to establish a typy. healthy dog, fit for purpose and conforming to the Breed Standard.


What is the breed called?


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## Rafa

Parson Russell Terrier.


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## SpicyBulldog

Rachel hill33rayhill said:


> So I do realize that breeders are not doing it just for the money so I wonder what are the reasons breeders out there are breeding there dogs. From the impression I got it seemed like even breeders without morals would have a hard time making much monet in the long run. So I'm just curious what reasons breeders out there have for breeding there dogs?


Without morals people can turn profit and commercial breeders are a business making money. Good breeders are not in it for the money and often lose a lot of money breeding, it can be very expensive.

I breed to preserve the breed and attempt to improve the breed.


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## qamarjaved706

Thats sound good. its great idea.


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## Nora_nora

Meezey said:


> If a breeder is breeding for money they are not an ethical breeder, they won't have all the relevant health tests carried out, they would have just stuck dogs together, no research, no DNA test, pups will be weaned on the cheapest food, they might get vet checked as might Mum, they will be in a back room once weaned and p'ing and poo'ing and wanting proper food and worming and chipping they are gone to the first person who hands their money over. Those people will put as little money and time in to the pups they can and expect a profit. BYB and puppy farmers those are the people who make money out of breeding.


I was searching :Bookworm about breeders before buying dogs. So I came to the conclusion that I dont really want to buy dogs from breeders. I particularly think my dogs are part of my family. I wouldnt want my baby (dog) to have puppies just to give me profit.


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## SpicyBulldog

Nora_nora said:


> I was searching :Bookworm about breeders before buying dogs. So I came to the conclusion that I dont really want to buy dogs from breeders. I particularly think my dogs are part of my family. I wouldnt want my baby (dog) to have puppies just to give me profit.


This is a very old post you've bumped. No one here would encourage you to be a byb, the post you quoted is a good example of the general feelings of this forum towards bybs. If you want a dog, but don't want to go to a breeder directly, you can get one 2nd hand from a rescue, shelter, private rehome although most of those dogs are likely from backyard breeders or some times oops litters. Everyone has to make their own choice of what they want to do and what works best for their home.


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