# breeding inside or outside?



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

For those of you who breed are your cats in or out? And why did you choose either way?

And for those you buying kittens what do you prefer to see at a breeders and how your kitten will be brought up?

Mine are indoors, I Hate the thought of a cat being stuck outside in a house just with the odd visit, to me they are my kids, my babies, my family.

I decided early on that my kits will be brought up in a family home, thats how I like my kits, so thats how I bring them up. Born next to me in the living room where I spend about 6 weeks on the sofa, 2 weeks before they are born with mum until they are 4weeks old. Then they go in the nursey (where I end up spending most of my time) for litter training, once litter trained they are supervised in the house.

Ive had cats that were born outside and raised outside and they were the most horrible cats, I had to rehome them in the end, the poor cats I cant blame them they just dont know any different.

Also people who keep cats outside and only bring in when they have kittens then go back outside.

Ive had people now all over the country buy from me as they like homeraised kittens/cats indoors and I now have a waiting list, something I never thought Id have as people have seen and want a kitten brought up how I do it.

So just wondered why different breeders do different things?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I guess it depends how and why you start off as a breeder. I've always had cats and started out simply as an owner so my cats really are my pets, some of which I happen to breed from. It does mean I have to be very careful not to over-populate the house as I don't rehome ex-breeding queens as a matter of course and so have remained a very small-time breeder. 

My stud boy does live outside in a purpose built stud house designed and built by ourselves. It is heated, extremely well insulated, fully tiled for easy cleaning and equipped with all home comforts. We spend hours out there with him watching tv, listening to the radio, reading etc. and I've even spent the occasional night out there having deliberately ensured there was floor space for an human sized airbed.

That's how I do it but I'd rather see decent outdoor accommodation for the cats than an overcrowded household. I worry more when I see breeders who have only been going a few years and have far too many cats because they have expanded so quickly and without thought. Good husbandry is very important and if that means keeping cats in purpose built accommodation then I'm not against it at all.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Ohhhh I want my kittens to grow up as much as possible in the middle of the living room, lol. I want them hoover proof, electric mixer proof, whistle kettle proof and bomb proof. I understand of course thats not always possible, and a kitten bedroom for the first few weeks is no bad idea, providing lots of time is spent with them in that room, but come 4  5 weeks, they must be downstairs in the heart of the home, or I am going elsewhere for my kitten. I am not into keeping cats outdoors at all and have never even done with that total ferals I have pulled off the streets. 

Intact males kept the way Havoc mentions (with that level of socialization) is exactly what I am looking for  if they keep their studs very isolated I am not buying a kitten from them. 

I am very picky when it comes to buying a kitten not on its show potential or its looks I know zero about that stuff and couldnt pick a top show kitten out of a nest of duds (duds for show purposes) but I am verrrryyyyy definite and very inflexible about how I want my kitten to be reared and housed, and how the queen lives the rest of year when she is not lactating. And queens kept outside is a no-no for me personally. Caged too. I cannot believe that in this day and age some breeders still cage their queens or keep them shut off in one bedroom. 

I am more lenient on how studs are kept as I realize they cant wander around the heart of the home, but not that lenient that a stud is stuck in a heated garage and not looked at apart from feeding watering and litter changes. A breeder meets all my standards or I go elsewhere, simple as that. And cats kept outdoors is just not my thing. 

I know quite a few feline foster mums who keep foster cats in heated outdoor runs. I wont knock it it is probably a better fate than death on the streets or put to sleep. But I could never do it. Nope, I am simply not a fan of cats kept outdoors. 

All the stuff havoc says about overcrowding, that goes for me too. If they're overcrowded.... byeeee, I am off to look for another better breeder.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Hi,

I have five cats that all live in with us part of the family, two neuters and three breeding girls. Our house is on three floors, so unless it is feeding time, they are pretty spread out and you would never know we had five cats.

I must say this is my first year of breeding but most of my enquiries I've had do ask if the cats are kept outside and people are generally relieved to hear they are not. A couple of potential enquirers had both had pedigree cats who were raised in outside pens in the past and they had socialisation issues.

However I do think there are breeders (and I have been to their homes) that have excellent outside facilities and their cats have a lot of attention on a daily basis and are well socialised and kittens are born in the home. Also, their cats do not tend to be kept as breeding cats for long, but are re-homed after a period to pet homes. For obvious reasons, studs do generally reside outside and yet some of the most loving cats I've met in this hobby are the studs!

I am afraid that yes, even in this day and age, there is still a need to separate at times. I did keep my queen in the lounge with her litter for a while before moving them downstairs, but this was not be to cruel in anyway but to prevent her from moving them all over the house (two flights of stairs in our house) whilst we were out, which could have resulted in death or injury to the kittens. Whilst in the lounge they had the TV on, scratch post, endless toys, hoovering to contend with and a multitude of eager visitors each day (us and family/friends). Trust me they didn't suffer!!  The kittens I had this year were bombproof and even jumped on the hoover! lol 



havoc said:


> That's how I do it but I'd rather see decent outdoor accommodation for the cats than an overcrowded household. I worry more when I see breeders who have only been going a few years and have far too many cats because they have expanded so quickly and without thought. Good husbandry is very important and if that means keeping cats in purpose built accommodation then I'm not against it at all.


Totally agree with this!

I know I am at my limit with five cats inside, my husband just wouldn't entertain more than that as we do have friends visiting/staying quite a bit and we have to have a balance between our hobby and our own social life!


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

My stud lives outside in a purpose built run which is attached to the "girls side" so he has company during the day and doesn't get lonely. My girls live indoors during the night but have access to the girls run during the day along with my neuters. All girls stay indoors 100% from 5 weeks pregnant to after weaning and don't seem to miss going out to the run. Kittens are born in the livingroom and remain in there til 4 weeks old, then move through into the kitchen with mum. Mum has free run of the house but as we have a large house, I'm paranoid about "losing" a kitten if they had free run. 14 rooms is a hell of a lot of searching if one went a "walk about" lol.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Absolutely, I agree. My cats are, first and foremost, pets. They are 'people' I want to share my life with, even if it means picking the odd fur out of my coffee (as I'm doing right now :lol. I obviously don't mean that I think they're little humans, because I don't, but I do love their individual personalities and I can't imagine a house with cats where a spontaneous game of catch or fetch isn't possible, and where a warm spot on a recently vacated chair isn't instantly filled.

Obviously I haven't started breeding yet, but I have seen many breeders' set-ups, and I have a very clear idea on how I intend to keep my cats.

I know that I too will be a small-scale breeder, because I will always have my cats in my home and, in order to accomplish and explore what I want to as a breeder, I'm going to be in this long-term, rather than large-scale.

I can't see myself re-homing a breeding queen unless she makes it clear that, for what ever reason, she doesn't want to be in my home. If there was no way to work through it, I would make sure she had a lovely, happy family home, rather than keep her in comparative isolation until she had had a few litters, regardless of the genetic and financial investment in my breeding programme that I would be losing out on by having to buy in another queen. That's a loss I think you have to be prepared to take as a breeder, if your cats come first.

The stud cat does pose a moral dilemma, and I would convert my home before I built an isolated outdoor run down at the bottom of the garden. Stud pants are marvellous inventions IMHO, for allowing your boy to be part of the family and have normal interactions with you and your other cats for a few hours every day, or putting queens away in one section of the house for a few hours to let your stud run around out with your neuters for a bit is also an option. Cages, runs and kitten rooms are tools to make breeding more manageable, but I personally couldn't condone their long-term use, day-in and day-out.

I do think havoc has an extremely important point about caging being preferable to over-crowding, but I really don't think that either is ideal or 'best breeding practice', and, although I try not to condemn breeders who do choose to use outdoor runs, I will not buy kittens from them, nor sell them my kittens.

*Okay, tact off: *I don't care _how _nice your runs are, cats deserve to be a part of family life, and they should _not _be caged. Domesticated cats, especially pedigree cats, have been selectively bred to be part of our lives and crave human attention. They absolutely do not have the space to run around properly, exhibit and enjoy natural behaviours and be real cats in a few square meters.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

I have spent alot of time and effort in creating fanatastic outdoor accomadation,and my cats all have outdoor living areas, they are all heated and all have there own indoor rooms, so although it is outdoors they still have the comforts of home life.

They get probably more attention than the average house cat,as I do this for a living,I have an office outside,and I leave for work like anybody else,it just so happens my work is at the bottom of my garden, and my job is feline related(not just breeding).

So from 6.00am, til 9.00pm I am out there,I take my lunch,have a coffee machine etc.

My day is solely dedicated to the cats,grooming,feeding,cleaning,playing my favourite part may I say.

When my kittens are born they spend the first 3 weeks with Mum in privacy,only I am allowed in to see them daily and handle them this is to ensure no infections are picked up etc,once they find their feet and are beginning to explore etc they are then brought into my home with Mum and are home raised as any other kitten would be My family consist of My eldest son Calvin18 and his girlfriend 19, my son harry 10 and my son luke 8.And kelly my wife.

Raising kittens is very much a family affair,and you find luke and harry rushing home from school to play with them.All the family have different jobs,and different start times and finish times so you always have someone coming and going,and 9 times out of 10 the first thing that happens is cuddles for the kittens,its not long before they understand the sound of the front door opening and come running,

I believe in kittens raised within the home and socialised correctly,make better pets,it goes without saying,but I have heard as Tje has of breeders saying they are home raised but the truth is they are often confined to one room and have the minimum of interaction.

Regardless of whether cats are kept indoors or outdoors,I am more concerned with how the welfare of the cats are,are they loved are they well maintained,do they have adequate facillities etc.

I too have a waiting list and my customers,often comment on how professional my accomadation etc looks and how happy my cats are.

It is important to understand when breeding there is no right and wrong when it comes to breeding in terms of outdoor/indoor providing you cater for the cats needs. it is really just personal preferance,and where one person will buy and say I dont like the cats to be outdoors,and prefer to see them lying around your home, Another might think breeding in your home is unprofessional and see it as someone making a bit of extra cash even though you have probably spent more than you made.

In my opinion the most important part of breeding is to create healthy,well socialised kittens,from well adjusted,socialised parents, cat/kitten welfare should be at the top of your priority list no matter how much it costs,if you want your cats outside invest in building them the best accomadation you can,if they are indoors give them freedom to wander your home.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> nor sell them my kittens


Well I'm with you 100% there. There's no such thing as a perfect breeder so I try to be tolerant of different methods but where I want my kittens to go is a whole different ball game


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> *Okay, tact off: *I don't care _how _nice your runs are, cats deserve to be a part of family life, and they should _not _be caged. Domesticated cats, especially pedigree cats, have been selectively bred to be part of our lives and crave human attention. They absolutely do not have the space to run around properly, exhibit and enjoy natural behaviours and be real cats in a few square meters.


You call that "tact off" sheesh… you should see me when I go into that mode  , lol.

Jokes aside, I strongly agree with you. I could hardly bear to put my cats in that kind of "small bottom of the garden" type accommodation if I went off on a fortnight's holiday. To think my cats would have to live that way… never ever in a million years!

I can speak fairly knowledgeably on how cats don't thrive well kept isolated in a bedroom (let alone a bottom of the garden run!) I do after all foster, and adult fosters are unknown quantities health wise and must be kept isolated from my own cats. But my kitten/foster room is also my (and my husband's) office, and I work from home 4-5 days per week and hubby about 2-3 days per week. I also strongly encourage some neighbourhood kids and kids from friends family to pop in for a hour or two as often as they can to just chill/play/socialize with the fosters. I have neighbours & friends who pop in once or twice a week just to groom or fuss with fosters. And just other small "get them out that one room" measures like…. I love to soak for an hour or so every night before bed in a bath…. So at that point I shut the door at the top of the stairs so my own cats stay downstairs, and then the foster can come out of "his" room and have a slightly widened horizon of the upstairs hall and the bathroom and can spend some quality one-on-one time with me while I lie in the bath.

This setup I have is still far from ideal though. OK, for fosters it'll have to do. Would I ever buy a kitten kept this way, or kittens from a queen reared and kept in a manner like my foster set up? No, absolutely not.

Beggars can't be choosers in the rescue world… we make do with the limited resources we have.

No way am I "making do" when it comes to the breeders I select to buy my own cats or kittens from. And I would strongly encourage everyone to be as picky and choosey and demanding as I am. Buyers have the power to control the standards breeders adhere to. If no one ever bought "reared at the bottom of the garden" peds, the habit would die out soon enough.

I am not a snob, lol, well not with anything else in life, I'm a very down to earth "canny" Scot at heart… but I am a terrible raging snob when it comes to how my own cats (and their parents) are reared and kept. I would even go as far as to say I think it's my moral duty to be so highly critical and selective about breeders.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> Well I'm with you 100% there. There's no such thing as a perfect breeder so I try to be tolerant of different methods but *where I want my kittens to go is a whole different ball game*


ohhh Havoc, I am soooo with you there too!!!! If a breeder didn't vet me critically enough.... tata, I'm off. I have even been known to be devious in the past and not mention that I foster, and just generally do a dumb-blond-not-very-well-versed-with-cats act just to see how a breeder reacts, what help & support they offer, if any, how they react to a totally inexpereinced owner. My breeder friend and I (best of life long friends now) but we met this way, lol, me doing my dumb blond act and her being like a mother hen thinking "could I ever let a kitten of mine live with someone this thick". You are VERY right to be VERY selective of where your kittens go to... moral duty, is a 2-way street, lol.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

although im not really involved in cats thought id add my 2 pence 

our cat Squeak is a moggy from a farm. OH took her as sh was the only one left and the farmer was moaning hed end up drowning her as no one wanted her - she wasnt a people cat.
OH told me she was being kept in a sort of stone lean-to on the side of the house where the farm cats slept on straw and no one really bothered with them.

although she will now let people pet her (especially kids) she would rather avoid you and i feel this is becase of her upbringing.

When she had a litter the kittens grew up in my livingroom with all the noises, people coming and going and a hyper puppy tearing around. There was always someone there to interact with them. My mum took 2 of the kittens and they are so friendly and always wanting petted, complete opposite of their mum!

If i were to buy a pedigree kitten it wold have to be raised indoors because of my experience


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> In my opinion the most important part of breeding is to create healthy,well socialised kittens,from well adjusted,socialised parents, cat/kitten welfare should be at the top of your priority list no matter how much it costs,if you want your cats outside invest in building them the best accomadation you can,if they are indoors give them freedom to wander your home.


I'm in agreement with this.

My cats are my pets first and foremost and and I can honestly say I know I am doing the best be them. We had Katzecure installed in the summer, so when the weather is good, they all enjoy spending time outdoors at their leisure during the day and at night they tend to follow us around like a mini lion pride.

I am of course very selective about the homes the kittens go to.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I believe in kittens raised within the home and socialised correctly,make better pets,it goes without saying,but I have heard as Tje has of breeders saying they are home raised but the truth is they are often confined to one room and have the minimum of interaction.


I know you don't think this is what I meant TT, so this isn't aimed at you... 

just for clarities sake... or for newbies who don't know me

when I talk of home rearing... I do mean in the heart of the home surrounded by people and daily life (the wash, the ironing, the hoover, the power drill, the shower, the visitors). I have had kittens and their queen who have spent almost all of their 12 weeks isolated in my foster room. I will never consider this ideal. Never! Even though it's our office and I spend a great deal of time in there, for me this will always be a compromise measure to allow me to continue fostering. I can never have a (foster) queen around my own cats, so they always stay in the foster room, but I will always try to sneak a different kitten or two downstairs every night for a few hours so they get to see as much of normal daily life as is possible.

If I was breeding my own, they would be in a kittening pen in the living room for the first 4 weeks, and I would work from my dining table... and after that they would be moved to a kitten bedroom only when I am not home to supervise, or was cooking, painting, had the sweing machine out, or at night time when I went to bed... kinda thing.

No way do I think kittens reared in isolation in a bedroom equate to "home raised".


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Tje said:


> If I was breeding my own, they would be in a kittening pen in the living room for the first 4 weeks, and I would work from my dining table... and after that they would be moved to a kitten bedroom only when I am not home to supervise, or was cooking, painting, had the sweing machine out, or at night time when I went to bed... kinda thing.


This is what we do....Bibi had a kittening pen but she had access to go and come from the top as she pleased and we let her out of the room every couple of hours throughout the day, so she could have a rest. 

When the kittens were old enough we moved them downstairs into the kitchen/conservatory in the day and in the evening they were with us in the lounge. Unfortunately, my female neuter was not so keen on the kittens at first (loves the one we kept now though!) so we did have to supervise and we could not leave them unattended together. That is the one difficult aspect...if a particular cat takes a dislike to the kittens, then it does make it more difficult to manage indoor breeding.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm so impressed with those of you who can have such set routines and timings. My girls can have different ideas and there's no arguing with them. I'd love to say my kittens move downstairs on a given date but it don't work like that


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

tellingtails said:


> Another might think breeding in your home is unprofessional and see it as someone making a bit of extra cash even though you have probably spent more than you made.


I think thats a bit unfair, seen as not being 'professional' If breeders dont have their cats outside in cat houses, or it being seen as making 'extra cash' Actually someone who bought from me went to one of the biggest breeders first, who doesnt have cats indoors and they said its like the cats are 'cash cows' with no thought for anything but money.



Tje said:


> You call that tact off sheesh you should see me when I go into that mode  , lol.
> 
> Jokes aside, I strongly agree with you. I could hardly bear to put my cats in that kind of small bottom of the garden type accommodation if I went off on a fortnights holiday. To think my cats would have to live that way never ever in a million years!
> 
> ...


I dont understand why people would breed them in their bedroom? Im not in my bedroom so why are the kittens?! Or being kept in one room isnt homebred either, mine are int he heart of the home with me 24/7, for the first 4 weeks, then in their nursery for 2 weeks until I can say they are fully litter trained then they have the run of the house (bar bathroom/kitchen/mybedroom - which I feel are unsafe for kittens) then nursey at night as im alseep and cant supervise.

I tell you what everyone that has bought from me offered to write me feedback, and all of them have been shocked as when they come over, when I say homebred I mean it! currently have mum chasing 5 kittens around the house with the raggie boy in front and the raggie girl jumping out the way!! I dont have a huge house and I have enough from for 2 more cats and that will be me lot...(I think...haha!  ) And that they can come over and view them as much as they want, one lady was like 'honestly i can come and visit?!' I was like of course! Ive met peoples friends/mums/dads/sisters/borthers/partners! like a extented cat family!


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> I think thats a bit unfair, seen as not being 'professional' If breeders dont have their cats outside in cat houses, or it being seen as making 'extra cash' Actually someone who bought from me went to one of the biggest breeders first, who doesnt have cats indoors and they said its like the cats are 'cash cows' with no thought for anything but money.


You are taking it out of context, if you read it properly it reads that what one person thinks is acceptable another may not, it at no point says I think it is unprofessional. It reads that their are diferences of opinion and that what is right and wrong in breeding is greatly subjective.



> It is important to understand when breeding there is no right and wrong when it comes to breeding in terms of outdoor/indoor providing you cater for the cats needs. it is really just personal preferance,and where one person will buy and say I dont like the cats to be outdoors,and prefer to see them lying around your home, Another might think breeding in your home is unprofessional and see it as someone making a bit of extra cash even though you have probably spent more than you made.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

havoc said:


> That's how I do it but I'd rather see decent outdoor accommodation for the cats than an overcrowded household. I worry more when I see breeders who have only been going a few years and have far too many cats because they have expanded so quickly and without thought. *Good husbandry is very important and if that means keeping cats in purpose built accommodation then I'm not against it at all.*





tellingtails said:


> I believe in kittens raised within the home and socialised correctly,make better pets,it goes without saying,but I have heard as Tje has of breeders saying they are home raised *but the truth is they are often confined to one room and have the minimum of interaction.*


I agree it is not about where they are raised it is about *how *they are raised.
Overcrowded homes where cats are under pressure and stressed due to other cats including outdoor ones fighting with nursing mothers or kittens are exposed to harmful environments or infections, is not good.
Homes where rooms are full of kittening cages or cats are hardly ever visited in their single rooms, from one day to the next are not good either.
Homes where there is discord and lots of shouting amongst the human inhabitants, and scary events with lots of kids or dogs can also not be good for kitten socialisation. It may make some bomb proof or it can also shake the confidence of others.
Homes where despite their "homely" tag, the cats are hatched, dispatched and turned over in the best kitten mill fashion, and are not family pets at all.

Queens and studs tend to fight and they also tend to spray. Keeping everything infection free and clean and hygienic and orderly may be difficult to do in a home situation, without the need for separations or caging, so what is the difference whether that separation and caging is indoors or outdoors.

When a breeder has many queens, then the myth of the idyll of home raising, can be just a myth.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Homes where there is discord and lots of shouting amongst the human inhabitants, and scary events with lots of kids or dogs can also not be good for kitten socialisation. It may make some bomb proof or it can also shake the confidence of others.


whoa... since I was probably the person who used the term "bomb proof" can I just point out we have a home with 2 adult humans and 2 adult (neutered) cats. That we have no screaming inhabitants, child or adults, or any crazy dogs, no dogs actually. Not that I think any normal dog or normal child is anything but a benefit to a kitten. I have never damaged a kitten's confidence, but have turned the most timid scared afraid shy (ferals and non ferlas) into well adjusted "bomb proof" kittens. It's really not rocket science to find the right balance between chaos and zero stimulation.



lauren001 said:


> Queens and studs tend to fight and they also tend to spray. Keeping everything infection free and clean and hygienic and orderly may be difficult to do in a home situation, without the need for separations or caging, so what is the difference whether that separation and caging is indoors or outdoors.


The fosters I have are probably far higher an infection risk than most breeders will have.... and again... the keeping everything clean & hygenic, that's the exact reason why a breeder should only take on as many cats as they as an individual can cope with. And of course the size of their home dictates a role in that too. It's just a question of not over stretching yourself (work wise, finances wise and space wise) and setting and sticking to realistic boundaries.

If I couldn't keep my queens and studs in a "homely" situation, then I simply wouldn't have them. And I won't buy from breeders who don't home raise their cats either. (in the proper sense of the word "home raise")

Plenty of breeders *DO* manage perfectly well to keep their queens (and their studs) in good "heart of the home" situation with plently of mental and physical stimulation and manage to keep their homes perfectly clean and hygenic at the same time. I will support those breeders by buying from them. The ones who keep cats in 3mx1m runs at bottom of the garden run.... nope, not for me!

Heck it would kill me if I had to leave my cats in a small space like that for 2 weeks while I went on holiday, I probably would just stop going on holiday. Apart from the fact that I would want my breeding cats to be pets (if I bred cats that is, hehe) ... I just think life in a garden residence, no matter how well made, insulated and heated it is, it is still just a glorified garden shed and it not the centre of the home where the damily spend the majority of their time. My quarters are my cats quarters. If I moved into my garden shed, then yes my cats will too, as long as I prefer the house (which, lol, I still do) then that's where my cats are.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Our buys are outside in what used to be half of the garage, it is nowa purpose built studhouse, boys would not be able too be idoors, too many cats, they would be mating without our control and even possibly their own siblings plus they spray loads, the girls all live a pampered life indoors and the kittens all grow around family life.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Tje said:


> whoa... since I was probably the person who used the term "bomb proof" can I just point out we have a home with 2 adult humans and 2 adult (neutered) cats. That we have no screaming inhabitants, child or adults, or any crazy dogs, no dogs actually. Not that I think any normal dog or normal is anything but a benefit to a kitten. I have never damaged a kitten's confidence, but have turned the most timid scared afraid shy (ferals and non ferlas) into well adjusted "bomb proof" kittens. It's really not rocket science to find the right balance between chaos and zero stimulation.
> 
> The fosters I have are probably far higher an infection risk than most breeders will have.... and again... the keeping everything clean & hygenic, that's the exact reason why a breeder should only take on as many cats as they as an individual can cope with. And of course the size of their home dictates a role in that too. It's just a question of not over stretching yourself (work wise, finances wise and space wise) and setting and sticking to realistic boundaries.
> 
> ...


Sorry my post was not directed at you at all, I was unaware you had used the term "bomb proof".

I was not meaning "normal" family life I was just pointing out that some "homes" are not necessarily the safest places for cats and kittens, due to the other inhabitants.

I totally agree that there are some dire places where breeding cats are kept at the bottoms of gardens and in small yards, but my point is that there are also dire places in people's homes too.
I also agree that the minimum requirements for cattery accomodation which is often quoted to justify small pens, is far too small for any animal that has to spend a lot of its life in pens, they are literally too small to swing a cat.

Home raised is often a term that is bandied about by breeders is my point and although some are just that and completely fill the requirement, others who own a lot of queens and studs cannot possibly keep them all in a homely environment.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Lauren, were singing from the same hymn sheet. :thumbsup:

Of course I agree that there are good and bad examples in both "reared inside" and "reared outside" of the main house. 

I just think if I compared apples with apples and took a good example of kept at the bottom of the garden breeding set up and compared that with a similar good example of kept in the heart of the home breeding set up, that the second wins hands down. 

In fact I am in no doubt about this I compromise with everything in my life except my own cats and where they come from, and I simply want the best of the best. (again though, I do mean rearing wise, I know zero about show standards, types, lines, etc). 

I am the fist to admit how I rear my foster kittens (the kittens with mothers anyway) is not how I expect a good breeder to function. 

In rescue we have to make do I refuse to make do or settle for when buying a kitten from a breeder I want all my boxes ticked

(want?, no I "demand", lol, geez I sound like a diva! ) .


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> I'm so impressed with those of you who can have such set routines and timings. My girls can have different ideas and there's no arguing with them. I'd love to say my kittens move downstairs on a given date but it don't work like that


ohhhhhhhh havoc I have the perfect solution for you - orphanned shelter kittens, lol.

They pee in the tray when you teach them (well kinda), they stay in the room you put them in (well kinda), they eat unaided when you wean them (well kinda) .... it's so cool not having a mother cat to tell me when to wean my kittens

(folks... my tongue is firmly in my cheek here )


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> It is important to understand when breeding there is no right and wrong when it comes to breeding in terms of outdoor/indoor providing you cater for the cats needs. *it is really just personal preferance,and where one person will buy and say I dont like the cats to be outdoors,and prefer to see them lying around your home, Another might think breeding in your home is unprofessional *and see it as someone making a bit of extra cash even though you have probably spent more than you made.


TT, I don't think it's just personal preference, I do think there is a right and a wrong. Not so much on outdoors versus indoors (providing heating, lighting, day light etc are catered for) . Its more

I think its right to rear animals around humans and in the heart of the home.

I dont think its right to raise animals away from this.

Dont get me wrong, say I refurbished my garage and my garden shed and I started taking my dinner guests out there, or having coffee with my friends out there, or doing my ironing or peeling my potatoes out there, getting showered and sleeping out there  then I wouldnt be against it, because for all intents and purposes that would be the heart of my home. I just dont know any family who spends the majority of their life in their garden, not even when I lived in the tropics. People live indoors.

My dad spends a lot of time in his time in a very fancy double garage / aviary  birds are his life, and he spends a lot of time out there doing his thing, he has his fridge and his coffee maker and his telly and his kettle and his radio and his laptop out there, but he doesnt live in the converted garages, it's his hobby space, his get away from mum space.

Though if the family does genuinely live in the garden quarters the majority of the time, then yes I have no issue with cats being reared there.

I can't say I have ever even heard of any one single person who would not want to buy a kitten raised in the heart of the home (in the right manner) and pass those over for a raised at the bottom of the garden in a converted shed litter. :confused1: How can these buyers say "heart of the home" rearing is unprofessional... I would be tempted to ask them if they build their babies nurseries and their toddlers playrooms in the converted shed too ?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I wont go into all the reasons but i was sent to 'check out' someone as she was selling un-reg kittens who were dying the night they got home, my breeder friend called me as sher was having so many people call her asking to buy a kitten as their one has just died, they wanted to save some money so instead of paying £400 they paid £250 and the kittens would die either that night or the next day.

She asked if I would go and have a look as the person knew her and didnt know me, so off I went! 

Was greated by the door by some screaming kids playing on very loud handheld games, dogs barking (lots of tiny pedigree ones yorkies/chis/etc) wallpaper hanging off walls, extremly dirty ripped up carpet, taken into the lounge and was told to sit down, looked at the sofa covered in crap, said i was fine standing. brand new surround sound 60inch plasma tv, her partner turning it up and talking on his mobile.

I wasnt allowed to view mum, no idea why, or see where dad lived (outside) no idea why, she brough out to kittens about 5-6weeks old and Iw as told they were 8 weeks ready to go, they looked lifeless barely moved, I was oo-arhing pretending to be interested asking about paperwork, she isad they didnt beleive in it or some rubbish, but all were show champs??

I then heard a noise, and again, and again, I said 'Whats that odd noise?' She then walked over to a curtain/sheet layed over something big, lifted it up and there was a cat giving birth   She lifted up one next to it and another with kittens about 4 days old 

I was like 'Oh' in the middle of all of this giving birth. She then said Ill gfet dad, so I 'wandered' into the hallway just to see the kitchen door shut, cages upon cages of cats and kittens  all crying, Im guessing she didnt want us to see out there as it was awful and mum was in kitten again.

Dad came in un-brushed matted badly very thin, I could just muster up 'oh his lovely' before pretending to check my phone and say 'oh my partners waiting in the car Ill get back to you'

She then called me and offered me a pregnant cat due in a few weeks, I asked why she couldnt keep her but she had no answer, maybe they were realted who knows?

Anyway someone we managed to get her to stop breeding cats, however she now breeds puppies.

Just thought Id add my story as that isnt homebred either, there is a line with noise teaching kittens new things, but that was one of the most awful things Ive ever seen, that was worse than the breeder who had 3 litters in 5ft by 5ft cages with fleas at 9 weeks old, she said 'they are to young to be treated, sold with no papers as we are moving abroad in a few months' You knwo what that was 5 years ago she still hasnt moved. oh and dad was a cross!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I dont understand why people would breed them in their bedroom?


Because:-

it's easier to regulate the temperature of an upstairs room with no outside doors being opened/closed

my house isn't an island, people are coming and going and most queens are unsettled by a constant procession of strangers until their kittens are reasonably mobile

queens don't like to move far from their kittens and need food etc. close to the kittens, my dog would snaffle it if it was in plain sight downstairs

the bedroom I use has laminate flooring which is easily cleaned so the queen doesn't have to be upset by the daily use of a vacuum cleaner

I could go on  My kittens are usually born in a spare bedroom which I move into about a week before the due date. The door is never closed and the queen comes and goes as she pleases. One queen with one litter insisted on moving them downstairs en mass at 3/4 weeks old. Every other litter I've had takes over first upstairs and then the rest of the house in their own good time. My current litter is coming up 8 weeks old and the last one only today decided to try out stairs. The two boldest ones have been wrecking the whole house for two weeks. When we talk about 'breeding' them in a bedroom we mean that's where they're born, not where they're raised for a full 13 weeks.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> TT, I don't think it's just personal preference, I do think there is a right and a wrong. Not so much on outdoors versus indoors (providing heating, lighting, day light etc are catered for) . Its more
> 
> I think its right to rear animals around humans and in the heart of the home.
> 
> ...


I am going to have my say now,

Firstly my kittens are raised in my home, like yours they are socialised like yours in a family enviroment.

My cats do not live in converted sheds, I am sorry but thats not what they are, my cats get as much if not more stimulation and interaction,of an indoor breeder.

I am sorry but a cat thats confined to a house by a breeder, still is a caged animal to a certain degree,instead of mesh it has glass to gaze and wonder what its like, some indoor breeders dont even have an outdoor run, the cat never knows what it is like to feel the wind on its face or smell fresh air or listen to the sound of a bird.

I take my cats for walks on leads and harness, they get adequate exercise and stimulation.My cats are interacted with all day everyday, i do not go to work and leave them for hours on end,like some breeders do.

Whats the point in having heart of the home if the heart constantly has to go out to work,to the shops,school runs, so in an average 8 hour day how many hours can a indoor breeder really say is dedicated to their cats when you start taking off time like, the above everyday tasks.

Where my job is my cats,I dont have to go to work 9-5 or 9-2 and leave them, my office and phone are with them,my grooming parlour is right next to them.

To me breeding is about cat/kitten welfare, producing the best health,quality,socialised,produce the best examples of my chosen breeds.

If I my car broke down,I would not let my neighbour lose on it,even if he had read every manual on and had fixed his,why because my family use that car and I want to know it is fixed by someone knowledgeable,who fixes these cars for a living and knows them inside out,Someone who works hands on everyday,day in day out.Not someone who tinkers once or twice a year.

To me it the same with kittens. I personally would want to buy from someone like Jacky

Bengal kittens for sale from Purebliss Bengals - breeders of SUPERCATS on the Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire boarder, within easy reach of Leicestershire, England, UK

someone who sets standards,rather than someone who has two cats running round her house and thinks that she is a breeder. In my opinion they are a hobbyist not a breeder.

Each to there own though,I wont go round telling people there wrong and I am right,or putting them down if they want to be this sort of breeder,good for them but I dont.

My cats are the pinacle of health,they have the most amazing tempraments,they are well socialised and have plenty of stimulation.

Dont be so quick to judge someone because there cats live indoors or outdoors surely you should judge someone for there merits,Just because someone has there cats outdoors does not mean their cats have any less of a quality of life as someone who lets them sleep on their bed.

How can you condemn someone without even knowing their circumstances,or their routine of their cats.

As for this statement



> I just think if I compared apples with apples and took a good example of kept at the bottom of the garden breeding set up and compared that with a similar good example of kept in the heart of the home breeding set up, that the second wins hands down.


What a load of rubbish, if anyone would like to come to mine this weekend and bring one of their kittens or Cats, we can compare socialisation,profile,standards etc etc

I'll provide the coffee/tea and biscuits.

Breeding is more than where they are raised,its about how,experience,health,welfare to name but a few.

Latest(Bengals) and last litter(Siamese) kittens and Oscar in his new home,perfectly socialised and well balanced, if you want to pop up for a coffee morning let me know.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

A great post, tellingtails, and in my opinion, particularly this:

"Breeding is more than where they are raised, it's about how,experience,health,welfare to name but a few".


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

tellingtails said:


> I take my cats for walks on leads and harness, they get adequate exercise and stimulation.My cats are interacted with all day everyday, *i do not go to work and leave them for hours on end,like some breeders do.*
> Whats the point in having heart of the home if the heart constantly has to go out to work,to the shops,school runs, so in an average 8 hour day how many hours can a indoor breeder really say is dedicated to their cats when you start taking off time like, the above everyday tasks.
> 
> Where my job is my cats,I dont have to go to work 9-5 or 9-2 and leave them, my office and phone are with them,my grooming parlour is right next to them.
> ...


Thats a bit unfair, you are extremly lucky not not have to go out to work, and have cats as your job and can work from home. Most people arent that lucky. I dont think taking time off is the school run or popping to the shops, that 'life'. Most breeders dont earn any money breeding and cant give up work as they need outside jobs to pay for everything else.

Im extremly lucky as im at home 24/7 with my babies, my cats go for walks and I do have a outside heated house, which isnt getting used as my cats cry and desperatly want to come back inside and get stressed unless there is about 3 of them outside!

My cats have great temprements and we are always praised on how we raise them and that they settle the day they leave for new homes etc your right it isnt just about being in a home, its MUCH MUCH more than that!

I didnt mean this thread to have a go, or for people to be nasty. I just wanted to hear people different views, as I visited a breeder a few weeks back whose kittens were born/raised/live outside until 12weeks old where they spent 1 week indoors to get them used to noises 

As long as the kits and cats are looked after and gets lots of love attention health etc which your obviously do.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm sorry TT but i find your comment about someone who raises their cats in their homes, and only breeds selectively and rarely insulting... and i'm not even a breeder.

As for the wind in their faces crap.... come off it! I presume you ONLY home your kittens to outdoor homes, or homes with a run/catproof garden available then?

As for it being your job, thats great that you are in a position to afford that. However as to your other points, i'm guessing your house still needs cleaning, hoovering, and the shopping still needs to be done. Pot kettle black.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

TT I know you have a "professional attitude" to cat breeding and a client/customer approach from your previous posts.

I am slightly concerned though as to the size of your accomodation for your breeding cats.










I know your queens like to be together but what is the width of that pen 3 foot?

Also it is all very well saying health but what health testing are you doing on your breeding cats? I see no evidence of health testing on your website.
Heart scans, DNA tests, eye tests?
As a "professional" breeder are these not par for the course?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Well TT, I have no idea why I get the wrath of all that . Hardly any of it (in fact none of it) applies to me.

You stated an opinion that there is no right and wrong I stated an opposing opinion that there is right and wrong. Thats allowed you know, whether you like it or not. Thats what discussion forums are all about.

I have no problems with people wherever they keep their cats as long as the cats are at the heart of the family life. I do have a problem with people who keep their cats isolated from normal daily life, whether that be in a converted garden shed or in a state of the bedroom or in a purpose built villa on the costa del sol. Cats need socialization. Where the family is, is where the cats should be. Like someone said earlier in the thread I see my cats as family members. Family members live in my house, not my garden, not my garage, not my cat run. And for the same reasons, my cats live in my house.

How can you say someone who has 2 breeding queens and breeds one or two litters of cats a year is an unprofessional tinkering hobbyist, lol that would make all the parents on here, and all our parents, unprofessional hobbyists too. Does someone become a good parent only after their 4th 5th or 6th child? Is good parenting about numbers? A good breeder is nothing to do with numbers quality has zero to do with quantity. It matters not a jot to me if my kitten comes from a breeder with 2 queens and 1 or 2 litters per year. The only thing that matters to me is that the breeder ticks all my boxes in regards to care and rearing.

And comparing breeding to a professional qualification career like car mechanic well, you seem to forget many professions (like car mechanics or nurses or physiotherapist) do actually have professional qualifications, they do follow an official training, they do pass an official exam to hold the title. Now whether humans breed or cats breed its not a profession that one goes to college or uni to study for, or works day release on and gets a professionally recognized qualification for  so I dont like that analogy at all. Its extremely weak.

TT I am not condemning anyone. I am stating what I look for in a breeder, what I deem acceptable, what I deem good and fine and well and dandy. Its just the same as you expressing opinions that breeders who dont have cat runs for their cats to go outside in are lacking in some way. Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. I will not accuse you of condemning those breeders, even though you accuse me of similar.

You obviously took extreme offence to my saying

*I just think if I compared apples with apples and took a good example of kept at the bottom of the garden breeding set up and compared that with a similar good example of kept in the heart of the home breeding set up, that the second wins hands down.*

Well thats just bad luck TT, because I stand 100% behind my words. If rearing cats in (the feline equivalent of a converted) garden shed is such a good idea  why dont we build our babies nurseries and out toddlers playrooms in those too?


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> As for it being your job, thats great that you are in a position to afford that. However as to your other points, i'm guessing your house still needs cleaning, hoovering, and the shopping still needs to be done. Pot kettle black.


__________________

Of course it does but it gets done after my working day is done and the cats are all away for the night, thank goodness for 24hr Tesco.

As for the comment of finding my post insulting it is not meant to be, and if you read it properly it is a comparison rather than having a go at people I even put this statement.



> Dont be so quick to judge someone because there cats live indoors or outdoors surely you should judge someone for there merits,Just because someone has there cats outdoors does not mean their cats have any less of a quality of life as someone who lets them sleep on their bed.
> 
> How can you condemn someone without even knowing their circumstances,or their routine of their cats.


And this one


> Each to there own though,I wont go round telling people there wrong and I am right,or putting them down if they want to be this sort of breeder,good for them but I dont.


Now does that sound like I am trying to offend someone,quite the opposite I am getting the point across that there is more to indoor/outdoor comparisons and dont be so quick to judge.:thumbup:


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> You obviously took extreme offence to my saying
> 
> I just think if I compared apples with apples and took a good example of kept at the bottom of the garden breeding set up and compared that with a similar good example of kept in the heart of the home breeding set up, that the second wins hands down.
> 
> Well thats just bad luck TT, because I stand 100% behind my words. If rearing cats in (the feline equivalent of a converted) garden shed is such a good idea  why dont we build our babies nurseries and out toddlers playrooms in those too?


Never took offence Tje,just think you talking aload of rubbish, and I stand by what I say,


> Breeding is more than where they are raised,its about how,experience,health,welfare to name but a few.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> In my opinion they are a hobbyist not a breeder


Proud to be both actually.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Never took offence Tje,just think you talking aload of rubbish, and I stand by what I say,


TT.. tut tut tut .... I never thought you'd be one to chuck the dummy out of the pram and get all personal and throw personal insults around just because someone disagrees with you. Oh well, hey ho! Not everyone can disagree and remain civil and calm whilst doing so.

Take some deep breaths  it does help!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

> someone who sets standards,rather than someone who has two cats running round her house and thinks that she is a breeder. In my opinion they are a hobbyist not a breeder.


to be clear this is what i found most insulting.

I would INSIST that any kitten i bought would be 1- raised in the home, and 2 - be from a hobby breeder.

I would not buy a kitten from a commercial facility, i dont care how well raised and pampered they are. A kitten farm is a kitten farm, breeding with the intention of commercial gain and profit.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

tellingtails said:


> If I my car broke down,I would not let my neighbour lose on it,even if he had read every manual on and had fixed his,why because my family use that car and I want to know it is fixed by someone knowledgeable,who fixes these cars for a living and knows them inside out,Someone who works hands on everyday,day in day out.Not someone who tinkers once or twice a year.


What nonsense! That merely condones that horrific scene that Taylorbaby set as being more reputable than those that breed once a year from their beloved pets.

To be perfectly honest, looking at it as a potential kitten purchaser, that would put me off to the point of walking out to see or hear of kittens being a "product" within a "business".


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> Proud to be both actually.


and so you should be !!!!

I would be the proudest mammy in town if I could call myself a hobby breeder.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Don't get upset peeps. I've been 'tinkering' a couple of times a year for a helluva long time now and I'm proud of my reputation, my service to two breed clubs, the novices I have mentored and encouraged to be better than I could ever be and the pet owners I have made happy. I'm a bl**dy good tinkerer


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> TT.. tut tut tut .... I never thought you'd be one to chuck the dummy out of the pram and get all personal and throw personal insults around just because someone disagrees with you. Oh well, hey ho! Not everyone can disagree and remain civil and calm whilst doing so.
> 
> Take some deep breaths  it does help!


How is not agreeing with someone,and thinking that they are talking rubbish spitting your dummy out and throw personal insults,and I am sorry but I think my post are extremely civil and calm.

More to the point not everyone can handle people disagreeing with them


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think the definition of a good breeder is a person who knows the breed inside out and has a good grasp of breeding practices, feline medicine, genetics, pedigrees, health issues especially those specific to his/her breed and who knows where the breed is going and is capable of selecting and producing quality cats to the breed standard. 

The number of breeding cats or the years of breeding she/he has is immaterial, as to the degree of real knowledge a breeder has. I have learned that.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> How is not agreeing with someone,and thinking that they are talking rubbish spitting your dummy out and throw personal insults,and I am sorry but I think my post are extremely civil and calm.
> 
> More to the point not everyone can handle people disagreeing with them


well maybe where you come from TT "oh you are talking a load of rubbish" is considered well mannered and polite methods of adult discussion. Not where I come from. Unless perhaps at the local football stadium or the youth club.

If we all took that "you're full of [email protected]" approach in here... the posts would degenerate very quickly, but luckily most people can carry on a civil adult debate without resorting to personal insults and cheap shots. But heyyyyyy, I am thick skinned so carry on playing the player instead fo the ball... I am used to it by now and it does detract from the actual matter at hand... i.e "what's better, rearing cats in the home or in a garden strcuture".


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think the definition of a good breeder is a person who knows the breed inside out and has a good grasp of breeding practices, feline medicine, genetics, pedigrees, health issues especially those specific to his/her breed and who knows where the breed is going and is capable of selecting and producing quality cats to the breed standard.
> 
> The number of breeding cats or the years of breeding she/he has is immaterial, as to the degree of real knowledge a breeder has. I have learned that.


Spot on, Lauren!!!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> What nonsense! That merely condones that horrific scene that Taylorbaby set as being more reputable than those that breed once a year from their beloved pets.
> 
> To be perfectly honest, looking at it as a potential kitten purchaser, that would put me off to the point of walking out to see or hear of kittens being a "product" within a "business".


I try not to let terminology sway me too much, but TT does like to impress upon us his _professional business-like approach_, and his dislike for _tinkering hobbyists_. I does make me cringe too. I wouldn't mind if he was formatting my harddisk, I just find it verrry cold and impersonal language for a breeder.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I think the definition of a good breeder is a person who knows the breed inside out and has a good grasp of breeding practices, feline medicine, genetics, pedigrees, health issues especially those specific to his/her breed and who knows where the breed is going and is capable of selecting and producing quality cats to the breed standard.
> 
> The number of breeding cats or the years of breeding she/he has is immaterial, as to the degree of real knowledge a breeder has. I have learned that.


This was my point



> Breeding is more than where they are raised,its about how,experience,health,welfare to name but a few.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> I try not to let terminology sway me too much, but TT does like to impress upon us his _professional business-like approach_, and his dislike for _tinkering hobbyists_. I does make me cringe too. I wouldn't mind if he was formatting my harddisk, I just find it verrry cold and impersonal language for a breeder.


Now who's being personel :lol::lol:

And i never said I disliked tinkering hobbyists.There your words not mine


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> And i never said I disliked tinkering hobbyists.There your words not mine


oh this is getting a tad tiresome, your words... do you want me to quote the post # for easier reference, lol.



tellingtails said:


> If I my car broke down,I would not let my neighbour lose on it,even if he had read every manual on and had fixed his,why because my family use that car and I want to know it is fixed by someone knowledgeable,who fixes these cars for a living and knows them inside out,Someone who works hands on everyday,day in day out. *Not someone who tinkers once or twice a year.To me it the same with kittens. Someone who sets standards,rather than someone who has two cats running round her house and thinks that she is a breeder. In my opinion they are a hobbyist not a breeder.*


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> This was my point


I don't really think it was. Your point is that those that "tinker" with one or two cats in their living room having one or two litters a year, are not as knowledgeable as those with professional pens and a client approach that have been breeding for years. That doesn't necessarily follow.

You quoted buying from a "professional" breeder. 


tellingtails said:


> rather than someone who has two cats running round her house and thinks that she is a breeder. In my opinion they are a hobbyist not a breeder.


I am not saying anything about that particular professional breeder as I do not know but to dismiss hobbyists in favour of people with a more customer based attitude is very condescending and I am sure offensive to many who have given their lives to breeds.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And i never said I disliked tinkering hobbyists


No but you did say 'hobbyists not breeders' which does rather give the impression you regard the terms as mutually exclusive.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> I personally would want to buy from someone like Jacky
> 
> Bengal kittens for sale from Purebliss Bengals - breeders of SUPERCATS on the Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire boarder, within easy reach of Leicestershire, England, UK
> 
> someone who sets standards,rather than someone who has two cats running round her house and thinks that she is a breeder.


Is my preference,just as your is to buy them from this sort of breeder,at no point did I say I dislike them,some of my friends are this sort of breeder.



> Each to there own though,I wont go round telling people there wrong and I am right,or putting them down if they want to be this sort of breeder,good for them but I dont.


But once again you doing what you do best twist peoples words to try an get an arguyment,so you can stand an your soap box and preach,then when it does'nt quite go your way you spit your dummy out and try to make the other posters look like the agressive ones, well not me got better things to talk about than arguy with you all night because you cant handle someone having a difference of opinion than yours.

Have a goodnight Tje, I am sure you will find someone else to arguy with.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

the '2 cats running around the house thinking they are abreeder' that isnt aimed at me is it?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think TB it is aimed at a lot of people as it will apply to quite a few, and I am sure many will have the same reaction as you to it.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

TT, do please grow up. We're not children and this is not the school yard. I am not twisting your words. Lauren, Messyhearts, Billyboysmammy, Taylorbaby and Havoc all read similar condescension into your words that I did. I don't have to twist your words... you practically invite people to feel insulted when you use such condescending language. 

I enjoy this kind of debate and discussion TT, I thrive on it. I dont get mad or angry or hurt when people disagree with me. I have disagreed with more or less everyone on this thread at one time or another, and yet youre the one who always makes it just that little bit personal. 

You seem to take disagreement so much to heart, thats not good on an internet forum TT. 

Go with the flow a bit more and just chill its the internet, not life or death.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> the '2 cats running around the house thinking they are abreeder' that isnt aimed at me is it?


sweetie... please... even if it is... do like Havoc and wear that badge with pride. Being a tinkering hobbysit IS something you can be very very proud of you know, even if it was meant like an insult. :thumbsup:


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> the '2 cats running around the house thinking they are abreeder' that isnt aimed at me is it?


No Tb it is not directed at you or anyone in general, however I have in my years of breeding met people who call themselves breeders, but have no knowledge and think kitten.cat welfare is basically changing litter and feeding their cat on time.

And it is this sort of breeder it is directed at but as always things get twisted and mis-read to mean something else.

This is what I meant by someone tinkering and caalling themselves a breeder, there are some exceptional at home breeders who deserve to call themselves breeders,some of my closest friends are this style of breeders.

But I have spoke to the other type also, glorified Byb telling people they are breeders when really they do not have a clue apart from putting the two cats together and hoping for the best.

So know defianately not directed at you or anyone in particular.:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

*deleted*


TT thanks for clearing that up.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I am sorry but a cat thats confined to a house by a breeder, still is a caged animal to a certain degree,instead of mesh it has glass to gaze and wonder what its like, some indoor breeders dont even have an outdoor run, the cat never knows what it is like to feel the wind on its face or smell fresh air or listen to the sound of a bird.


I'm sorry TT, but what a load of bull.
My girls sit by the window and feel the breeze when either it's a windy day and it's blowing through the vents, or I have the screen up and the window open. They also hear the birds from 4 ft away, as the bird feeding station is that close to the window. But you know, they never try and get to the birds, they just sit and watch excitedly.





tellingtails said:


> Whats the point in having heart of the home if the heart constantly has to go out to work,to the shops,school runs, so in an average 8 hour day how many hours can a indoor breeder really say is dedicated to their cats when you start taking off time like, the above everyday tasks.


I work from home, in the home (not some office outside). My girl gave birth in the room I spend 24hrs a day almost every day. When her kittens were old enough to climb out of their kittening box they worked out how to climb up the side of my chair within the day. From that moment on they spent most of their time sleeping next to me, and on me with my girl doing the same. Heck she even fed them a few times on my chest  Seriously she did! All 4 kittens asleep on my boobies, and she strolled over and proceeded to position herself on my boobs as well, and they all happily fed, and she was purring away enjoying a fuss at the same time  Magic.

Even now, rarely do I go to sleep at night without a kitten or cat in my arms fast asleep. Or curled up under my blanket. Then the other two are on either side of me asleep. I often wake with a different cat/kitten in my arms to what I went to sleep with :lol: My poor hubby doesn't get a look in anymore. But then I have been unable to sleep in a bed for years now, so it's not a problem. He sleeps in this room with me/us anyway.

My girls kittens will be raised this way from now on. This has been my first litter, and I have raised this girls alongside their mum. We have shared them. I love them dearly and they love me too. They are so affectionate it would probably be unbelievable to someone who hasn't seen if for themselves.

I'm not going to demand it, but I would love to hear Hobbs' side of this, as she gave one of my girls kitties a home (Lila). I'd love to hear if she is still as affectionate as she was here, and also if she has been a different kind of kitten to what her others have been over the years (temperament wise that is). Has it made a difference how I have helped my girl raise them? (sorry if that's putting you on the spot Hobbs  ).



tellingtails said:


> If I my car broke down,I would not let my neighbour lose on it,even if he had read every manual on and had fixed his,why because my family use that car and I want to know it is fixed by someone knowledgeable,who fixes these cars for a living and knows them inside out,Someone who works hands on everyday,day in day out.Not someone who tinkers once or twice a year.


You know, you say this BUT ... is it not true that it is said that Bengals need to be socialised from a few days old to ensure they have as best a temperament as possible? But you don't start until they are 3 weeks old?



tellingtails said:


> someone who sets standards,rather than someone who has two cats running round her house and thinks that she is a breeder. In my opinion they are a hobbyist not a breeder.


I'm glad that's only your opinion TT 



tellingtails said:


> Each to there own though,I wont go round telling people there wrong and I am right,or putting them down if they want to be this sort of breeder,good for them but I dont.


Actually you just tried to do that ...



tellingtails said:


> Dont be so quick to judge someone because there cats live indoors or outdoors surely you should judge someone for there merits,Just because someone has there cats outdoors does not mean their cats have any less of a quality of life as someone who lets them sleep on their bed.


Errrrm, perhaps you should read what you typed again? The quote 2 above this one (of yours) especially.



tellingtails said:


> Breeding is more than where they are raised,its about how,experience,health,welfare to name but a few.


Quite right, I agree. Maybe then you would like to look more seriously into my question on another thread then about temperament being passed down through generations ... in the same way a coat pattern is? (you might have done this while I've been typing though, so I apologise if you have).


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> You know, you say this BUT ... is it not true that it is said that Bengals need to be socialised from a few days old to ensure they have as best a temperament as possible? But you don't start until they are 3 weeks old?


No I dont, i handle and socialise them from day one, I just dont let anyone else see them until they are 3 weeks, this is my personal preference of a fear of infection.

I had a litter 2 years ago (a litter of 8) wiped out by a virus, a friend brought into my house from a sick pet,they were all only five days old, so I am super cautious now,even when they then move into the house,I make everyone use alcohol hand wash who visits my home, but thats just me,does it need to be this cautious may be, may be not.

As for your other question on your other post reference, traits passed from Alc to Bengals regarding agression etc I am researching it a bit before I respond, I have sent an email to a local university specialising in Genology as I am curious myself on what inherit traits can be passed from generation to generation apart from colour,coat etc. I.e if a cat was mistreat,would its off spring be naturally weary of humans, if a parent was agressive would its ofspring be without having interacted with say an agressive father cat etc


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> No I dont, i handle and socialise them from day one, I just dont let anyone else see them until they are 3 weeks, this is my personal preference of a fear of infection.
> 
> I had a litter 2 years ago (a litter of 8) wiped out by a virus, a friend brought into my house from a sick pet,they were all only five days old, so I am super cautious now,even when they then move into the house,I make everyone use alcohol hand wash who visits my home, but thats just me,does it need to be this cautious may be, may be not.
> 
> As for your other question on your other post reference, traits passed from Alc to Bengals regarding agression etc I am researching it a bit before I respond, I have sent an email to a local university specialising in Genology as I am curious myself on what inherit traits can be passed from generation to generation apart from colour,coat etc. I.e* if a cat was mistreat,would its off spring be naturally weary of humans*, if a parent was agressive would its ofspring be without having interacted with say an agressive father cat etc


But that's nothing to do with hundreds of years worth of genes developing a wild territorial instinct surely?

I'm surprised as a breeder of many years you don't know this already ... surely it is a very important thing to consider when considering breeding Bengals?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I am curious myself on what inherit traits can be passed from generation to generation apart from colour,coat etc. I.e if a cat was mistreat,would its off spring be naturally weary of humans, if a parent was agressive would its ofspring be without having interacted with say an agressive father cat etc


Is that not just the nature vs nurture debate?
Cats dogs and nature versus nurture - Pets.ca | Pets.ca

Genes vs environment.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> But that's nothing to do with hundreds of years worth of genes developing a wild territorial instinct surely?
> 
> I'm surprised as a breeder of many years you don't know this already ... surely it is a very important thing to consider when considering breeding Bengals?


Yes I do as far as I am aware a bengal, does not carry over an agressive streak from an Alc( I am talking about an Sbt bengal) Born from back to back breeding bengal parents,not a one that has had an Alc put back into its blood line.If it did why would it not carry over its shyness,Alc are notorius for not being seen they avoid human contact at all times,quite the opposite of the Bengal.

I am more curious than I am uncertain of what can be passed on through breeding,The debate the other day sparked curiosity in terms of what actually could be passed on in terms of instinctual, like a cats fear or no fear of water,we know they do but I was more curious to know the science behind genetic markers,what makes some stay dormant and others remain active.

I also wanted to know if dormant markers could be activated or others switched off,i.e in a lab we know animals can be cloned and the clone carrys the exact same markers, but I wanted to know is it possible to remove certain markers.

I am a fond believer that the way you raise a bengal,is behind his/hers reaction rather than an inherited trait that makes him agressively dominate his territory,I have bengals and none of them are agressive in terms of territory,I have a Persian that comes to board with me,and he is highly agressive when he sees my other cats,my cats look as if to say what the hell.

I understand that there are problem encounters with bengals,and that some will stand there ground,but my experience and talking to other bengal breeders have not had simalar experiences.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

I think this topic has gone way off track and needs too turn the corner back onto it instead of everyone having a go at each other. :scared:

Everyone has there own way of breeding and as long as it is a good way then who's too say it is right or wrong, come on less of the sniping at each other and more of the subject in hand. :thumbup:

(Sorry it's the Moderator in me).... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

OK  especially for Steverags , to go back on topic .

The other week I was talking to another forum member about this and neither of us knew the answer, and this is the perfect thread to ask this question on.

*I was wondering when people keep their (stud) cats in quarters in their gardens do their neighbours never get annoyed about the noise or smell?*

Before anyone thinks I am insulting them by implying they dont keep their stud quarters clean, that is absolutely not what I mean the cleanest stud quarters can still be quite wiffy, especially in the summer, in between the regular cleaning times.

Then theres the noise issue.. A friend of mine has outdoor stud quarters for her NFC studs but she lives in a pretty remote part of the country so her boys dont get that much work (so I think thats why they are quite noisy boys, I assume theyre not getting enough???) A while back she ended up having them temporarily chemically castrated to get the neighbours off her back. The neighbours had brought in the housing authority, the local council and the environmental inspector.

I felt sorry for her to a degree. She only has two boys and they are well kept etc (bearing in mind my personal feeling about cats reared in gardens, they are very well kept for cats who live in a garden). But I could also definitely see the neighbours point of view. Her stud quarters are at the foot of her garden, one to the left and one to the right and the space in the middle is their outdoor part. That means three of her neighbours are directly affected, and about three others too, but less directly.

Obviously this wont apply to people living in homes with massive gardens well separated from their neighbours gardens. I am talking about a normal street with terraced houses and semis with a standard 4 or 5 meter wide garden, where all the neighbours are in close proximity to each other.

If my friend got hassle about 2 studs, how do people with many studs (and other cats) in their garden quarters ... how do their neighbours feel about so many cats in a garden next to theirs?


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

We're quite lucky in respect one of our neighbours is hardly ever there as they are from Saudi Arabia and travel around the world a lot in their job, Our other neoghbour only moved in a couple of years ago and was told by the previous owner we had stud boys, one boy can get a little noisy during the day but it's not constant, our boys are let out of the stud house (cat flap opened) from 10am and are put away (cat flap closed) at 9pm. we've had no complaints so far although the howling did upset the neighbours little boy when he went too bed.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

TT, to me it seems obvious.

If a coat pattern can survive all the generations, including back breeding then so can a temperament.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

I am lucky,my immediate neighbours directly behind are family,so no complaints and next door breeds,and races pidgeons,he has a huge avairy,and when I say huge I mean huge over 1000+

He does'nt mind my cats,I dont mind his pidgeons,my cats do make a little noise in the summer months but there not constant callers, his pidgeons sometimes Poop on your washing,but that could happen off a passing Seagull so,we co-exist besides my cats love watching his pidgeons.Oh and everyone else around has dogs,so plenty of occasssional barking.

I live in a street that is very neighbour friendly,everyone has lived their 20+ years all the children have sunflower competitions etc and it is the old fashioned open door policy,no knocking just walk in make yourself a coffee,in the summer we take it in turns to have bbq etc,I love where I live I am very fortunate to have such excellent neighbours.:thumbup::thumbup:

As for the smell none of my boys are sprayers,and I change litter fully everyday,new so no smell either.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> TT, to me it seems obvious.
> 
> If a coat pattern can survive all the generations, including back breeding then so can a temperament.


Well thats your opinion Aurelia, but there are thousands of Bengal owners and breeders that would disagree.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Besides Aurelia all cats have a genetic link to a wildcat somehow



> Carlos Driscoll and his colleagues across the world have collected DNA samples from almost 1,000 different individual cats and looked at different genetic markers to identify common ancestry patterns between domestic cats, purebreds, and wild cats. The data they gathered shows that domestic and purebred cats fall into the same clade as wildcats from the Near East, which matches up well with the archaeological data from Cyprus.


To read the full article and others like this click the links below:thumbup:

The origin of the cat

Genome Study Shows Cats Also Originated In The &#039;Cradle Of Civilization&#039;

The origin of domestic cats all carry genetic markers of their wildcat ancesters Aurelia,so I stand by what I say, its more about how they are raised,than a trait carried over from the Alc.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> As for the smell none of my boys are sprayers,and I change litter fully everyday,new so no smell either.


So does she, but it still does wiff, I can't deny that.

In fact all studs quarters I have been in have had a definite smell to them. Not that it stops me going in for a cuddle or to groom them but I can see why neighbours could be annoyed if someone had a large cat population in their garden in a row of terraced houses.

MY BSH breeder friend employs a daily cleaner . her boys are still pungent though and as much as I love them (and one will become mine on retirement) gosh he stinks! But her stud quarters are very spacious (in a downstairs bedroom with cat flaps to their large outside spaces) and her house has such a large garden that her neighbours could never possibly be bothered by them.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> So does she, but it still does wiff, I can't deny that.
> 
> In fact all studs quarters I have been in have had a definite smell to them. Not that it stops me going in for a cuddle or to groom them but I can see why neighbours could be annoyed if someone had a large cat population in their garden in a row of terraced houses.
> 
> MY BSH breeder friend employs a daily cleaner . her boys are still pungent though and as much as I love them (and one will become mine on retirement) gosh he stinks! But her stud quarters are very spacious (in a downstairs bedroom with cat flaps to their large outside spaces) and her house has such a large garden that her neighbours could never possibly be bothered by them.


Mine dont so I am lucky I guess:thumbup:

Our houses are all detached there is a row of terraced to the left of my house, it might be different if I lived in one of those,they might complain about the noise or close proximatey then, but my back garden backs onto my Mums sister's back garden,and I am the end house,so there is a public footpath between mine,and the terraced houses back gardens,so more than enough space for the noise to be eliminated,next door is Pidgeon breeder,across from him have a huge rottwielar bitch who loves to bark.

I am lucky I would hate to live some where that neighbours complained, I would have to sell up and move to the countryside,I guess.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Besides Aurelia all cats have a genetic link to a wildcat somehow
> 
> To read the full article and others like this click the links below:thumbup:
> 
> ...


TT the domestic cat we all know and love has been around for almost 10,000 years (as stated in the first link you provided). That is years that could and most definitely will have provided enough time for a species to evolve. There is no doubt that even still the species 'cat' still holds on to it's wild tendencies ... hunting for food, and scrapping over territory. All you have actually done here is prove my point.

The Bengal as a breed has only been around for less than 100 years. That is no time for a species to evolve. And definitely not enough time for any traits to be diluted enough for you to be certain it isn't an issue.

This is a very interesting subject, but maybe if you want to discuss it further you could perhaps start a new thread? I feel bad that we have steered this one off topic


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I have just started a new thread.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/128874-temperament-genetic-environmental.html#post1921197


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Mine dont so I am lucky I guess:thumbup:
> 
> Our houses are all detached there is a row of terraced to the left of my house, it might be different if I lived in one of those,they might complain about the noise or close proximatey then, but my back garden backs onto my Mums sister's back garden,and I am the end house,so there is a public footpath between mine,and the terraced houses back gardens,so more than enough space for the noise to be eliminated,next door is Pidgeon breeder,across from him have a huge rottwielar bitch who loves to bark.
> 
> I am lucky I would hate to live some where that neighbours complained, I would have to sell up and move to the countryside,I guess.


TT, I remember those pics you posted the other day on the thread where that guy was buidling his run, was it Toto?? Anyway from memory your proximity to your neighbours is about the same as my friends. And she only has 2 cats in her garden, still got the neighbours fairly riled up though.

I agree I would hate to have neighbours who complained, but on the flip side, I would feel very bad if my cats presented any form of nuisance to my neighbours, and frankly with stud cats or multi cat housing units in a back garden of a normal house in a normal street.... I can see it could cause problems.

You are very lucky to have neighbours with similar hobbies and you all tolerate eachothers hobbies & animals. I hope you or they never move!!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think some breeders just do have to move to the country, as they get a lot of hassle from neighbours, and I am not totally surprised.
Smell and screaming cats and the building of big sheds/walls in any suburban garden is never going to be popular with neighbours who value their peace.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I think some breeders just do have to move to the country, as they get a lot of hassle from neighbours, and I am not totally surprised.
> Smell and screaming cats and the building of big sheds/walls in any suburban garden is never going to be popular with neighbours who value their peace.


My friend who breeds BSHs, that's why she moved. When she lived in suburbia she just had one stud in a bedroom (with a really cute ladder thing down into a garden run) and 2 females. When she expanded she moved to a small village in the country, far bigger house, with a very large garden on 3 sides of the house.

Some of the gardens filled with massive structures I see posted here on the PF... I don't think they would pass buidling regulations here. One of our neighbours built a smallish, (very beautiful to look at) Scandanavian style log cabin in his garden. They had to pull it down. It contravened the local planning laws seemingly. Though no way was it an eye sore, it was nice to look at. I just think our council is very strict on these type of things. My very modest cat run is only tolerated as it is classed as a temporary structure, not a permanent one (that is; it can be taken down and reassembled within a short space of time).

I can see why these rules are in place... imagine if a street of 20 houses, 10 owners had 20-cat accomdations in their back gardens. It would be a nightmare in the 'burbs.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> My friend who breeds BSHs, that's why she moved. When she lived in suburbia she just had one stud in a bedroom (with a really cute ladder thing down into a garden run) and 2 females. When she expanded she moved to a small village in the country, far bigger house, with a very large garden on 3 sides of the house.
> 
> Some of the gardens filled with massive structures I see posted here on the PF... I don't think they would pass buidling regulations here. One of our neighbours built a smallish, (very beautiful to look at) Scandanavian style log cabin in his garden. They had to pull it down. It contravened the local planning laws seemingly. Though no way was it an eye sore, it was nice to look at. I just think our council is very strict on these type of things. My very modest cat run is only tolerated as it is classed as a temporary structure, not a permanent one (that is; it can be taken down and reassembled within a short space of time).
> 
> I can see why these rules are in place... imagine if a street of 20 houses, 10 owners had 20-cat accomdations in their back gardens. It would be a nightmare in the 'burbs.


I guess its just a question of different peoples tolerance levels what one complians about another will tolerate ,also its different from city to city,country to country in terms of planning regulations.

I submitted an aplication,just as my neighbour did for his large avairy, both went through no problem, the only stipulation the planning authorities made was that the structures could be no taller than 2.4 metres and could not take up more space than 50% of our original garden space.

Yet a friend of mine in Herfordshire got refused,planning and had to move to expand their breeding program


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> the only stipulation the planning authorities made was that the structures could be no taller than 2.4 metres and could not take up more space than 50% of our original garden space.


OMG your council is generous. We can build nothing over 180cm high. Our gardens in our street are 100 sq meters.... (20mX5m)... and we all have one small garden shed. Many neighbour have applied for permission to build a 2nd small garden shed and all applications have been denied, that's why we're not even bothering submitting one.

And totally agree that it's all down to tolerance.... eevn if our council allowed the building of cats accomodations in the garden.... I know the neighbourhood wouldn't tolerate it.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Only noise you hear from my house is:
'OI! NO! NAUGHTY!! ill smack your little bum bum!!' And thats just me to my partner hahaha :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

:lol: Taylor, same here except to add that 'GET DOWN' would also be heard regularly


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

:lol::lol:hahaha!!!!!!!!


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