# KC Regisered??



## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Hi, this is my forst post here and so im looking forward to becoming part of your pet community. :thumbup:

However...I do have a slight problem (its more huge then slight)
I brought a puppy Bulldog from a breeder, she is now 10 months, and I probely dont need to tell you how much she cost me due to the breed! However, I have yet to recieve her KC and pedigree papers. When I went back to the breeder I was given a KC issued 5 generation pedigree....but it was issued in 2007 and on further bugging of the breeder I discovered that the certificate is actually hes, my puppys mums pedogree. When questioned he was unsure of waht paperwork I needed and said he thought that all he was to give me was the certificate for hes bitch. This is hes 1st litter and I dont believe he is deliberaly ripping me off but I paid for a KC registered pedigree dog and as it stands at the moment I dont have one. I have also not recieved paperwork to change the registered owner....can I check if my dog is registered, and can i change the owner or is all that got to be done by the breeder??

Also....upon looking on the KC website I have come across something I am a little worried about
All litters produced by AI will be subject to existing Kennel Club registration regulations.
The donor dog must have produced at least one registered litter naturally.
The General Committee will not normally accept an application to register an AI litter if the donor male is alive and domiciled in the United Kingdom, with one exception namely that Irish Wolfhounds of 8.5 years or older and domiciled in the UK can be used as donors in AI.
Maiden bitches - Litters produced by AI from bitches that have not previously produced a registered litter naturally may now be registered, but the Kennel Club will not register a litter produced by AI from one of her female progeny, unless the said progeny has already produced at least one registered litter naturally.
The breeder used AI for hes dog and so producing my puppy, and the breeders bitch was also produced using AI....so there is 2 generations with no natural litters.....(although Im not sure they were regisiered KC as AI) and reading the last point on the list Im not sure my puppy can be a KC registered dog?????
Im sorry its soooo long, but im soo confused.
Please help.
Thank you.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

if your puppy is registerd it should have its own name. i'll give you an example DKDREAM (thats my kennel name) not really but as the example. Each pup that I wanted to egister must then have a name. 

Example DKDREAM Just Fancy
DKDREAM Flynn 
DKDREAM Bo Jangles 

If you have a name of the puppy you can check on the KC site.

Do you know the name of the kennel the dog is from?


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

I dont know her registered name, but I do know that her mum was breed with Dawnstar bulldogs and the dog is called Issac.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

do you know what the mother was called?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

heres the link to their site, with the page Issac is on

http://www.btinternet.com/~dawnstarbulldogs/ourdogs.html


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

I know her mothers name as I have her pedigree certificate. Can I just ring KC and ask if there is any litters registered to her??

And is the AI a problem?

Never simple


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Yeah you could do that they should have it on record. I don't understand why you would have the mothers certificate. You could also search for the kennel that bred the mother and ask the breeders if the mother had any endorsements on her pedigree?


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

If you have a copy of the pups mums pedigree it should have her registered name on it. The best thing you can do is to ring the KC and ask if a litter has been registered out of this bitch. I wouldn't mention the AI for now just find out whether he actually registered the litter


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Thank you, I will do that tomorrow and see what they say....fingers crossed!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Keep us updated please, I wish you the best of luck for a good outcome. I forgot to put the link on in my other post I have done now. :thumbup:


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

Did you sign a contract when you bought your pup saying it would be KC registered? Puppies can be registered up to 12 months old, so there is still time, but it doesn't sound like the breeder of your pup knows what they are doing. I would phone the KC and ask if there has been a litter registered from the dam of your pup with the date of birth of your pup.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

I will do. Thank you for all your advice. x


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Yes, I signed a contract and was told that the paperwork would follow as soon as he had it...but then he sent me the mums pedigree. I dont think he does, he thought it was her paperwork I needed.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

does the breeder you got her from have a website?


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

The breeder doesnt, but they took her Dawnstar bulldogs which does.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I think you can only ask the KC I really hope you can get it sorted.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Freyja said:


> If you have a copy of the pups mums pedigree it should have her registered name on it. The best thing you can do is to ring the KC and ask if a litter has been registered out of this bitch. I wouldn't mention the AI for now just find out whether he actually registered the litter


Due to the DPA / FOI - it's highly unlikely the KC will tell you anything  they are VERY strict in giving out information.

If you have the breeders name, and the dogs KC registered name, your best bet is to see if someone has a BRS covering the breed for the quarter she was born in.

I hate to say this, but I suspect you will find out she isn't registered  (I hope I am wrong).

However, FYI - if both parents were KC registered and there are no endorsements on either parent - then the breeder is able to register pups at any time, but the cost is £60 after 12 months of age.

If she is registered, it could be that the breeder hasn't got around to sending the paperwork yet (it does happen). You cannot transfer ownership of a KC registered dog, without the previous owners (in this case breeders) signature on the paperwork. You can actually do the transfer online now, but again, you would need the paperwork to do this.

Hope you sort it out.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Again, thank you for all your posts. I ill try KC and see if they will tell me anything. If not I guess its time to bug the breeder a bit more and hope he gets annoyed enough to sort it all out.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

or maybe contact the stud owner? see if what the breeders say is genuine?


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Oh yes, I have all their details...a phone call to them wouldnt hurt, thanks.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

RachaelAnn said:


> Oh yes, I have all their details...a phone call to them wouldnt hurt, thanks.


There is such a mix of breeders (in terms of breeds) here - it really would be worth asking someone to check the Breed Record Supplement (BRS) to see if the litter was registered if all else fails.

Let us know how you get on.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

swarthy said:


> There is such a mix of breeders (in terms of breeds) here - it really would be worth asking someone to check the Breed Record Supplement (BRS) to see if the litter was registered if all else fails.
> 
> Let us know how you get on.


can anyone get the (BRS) or do you have to have a kennel?


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Very strange situation.

I would be very surprised if the breeder of your dog went to all the trouble of using AI (an incredibly complex and expensive procedure) to produce unregistered pups.. Something definately seems a bit odd..

Hope you get to the bottom of it with the help of the KC. FYI, the KC will give you any information requested over the phone about whether a dog is registered, has endorsements on its pedigree and if its had any litters. They will even tell you when it had the litters and how many pups there were!! As well as health test results, though these are also available on their website. I dont think they will give owners details out, or any breeder details other than the name but you can find out a lot of info from them.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> can anyone get the (BRS) or do you have to have a kennel?


No - they can be bought from the KC for about £6 an issue - they are done in the different groups - I get one when I buy a pup in or register a litter (it's an additional option during litter registration and when transferring puppy ownership) - and lists a wealth of information including

All litters registered during the quarter - plus the age of the bitch, the date of her last litter and and how many litters / pups she has had.

All ownership transfers

All BVA/KC results issued during the quarter plus many results not undertaken under the BVA/KC agreement that have been submitted by owners

It's an interesting browse if you have an interest in a specific breed 

I keep meaning to subscribe to receive all issues, but keep forgetting  You've given me a kick now.

Here's the link

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/a...ement+(Yearly+Subscription)&dept=publications

===================

I have no idea whether they keep / sell back issues - and as the information the OP is after would be listed in a BRS - they just MIGHT share it over the phone.

A word of caution if thinking of buying one - if a pup was born in say late March, the breeder may not register it until April or later (and so on for each other quarter) - as (although I can't speak for anyone else) I know I tend to wait a couple of weeks before registering the litter - with it being online now, it's ridiculously quick and easy (assuming you remember to remove the endorsements from your own bitch  )


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Thats great, thank you. I really hope KC can give me some good news tomorrow. I will let you know.
Thank you again.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

lol @ the endorsements I am interested in the papillons as I am hoping to breed in a few year all going well.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> lol @ the endorsements I am interested in the papillons as I am hoping to breed in a few year all going well.


I know  I endorse all my pups are registration, because I don't always know which one I am keeping until they come close to 8 weeks, I completely forgot about it - DOH!!!!

I love Papillons, my boss at the kennels used to have one, Patch, he was a little sweetheart. My boy came face to face with a Pap pup a few months back at a show - despite him being around 100 times bigger, the Pap gave him the "I can hold my own" treatment - my boy was quite bewildered bless him :lol: :lol:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I have 2 soon to be 3  they're a beautiful breed. They can be funny in their antics.

I will endorse all mine too, unless I know who to trust with a breeding girl


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

Ive no idea why he wudnt know how to register a litter & dawn mantle is very well known in the bulldog breed im sure she keeps records so maybe give her a ring and ask if one of her boys has serviced this girl....i wouldnt worry about the AI its a very common method used in breeding Bulldogs although frowned upon by our KC (in my opinion they need to move forward but thats another story).....if you know the KC name of mum then ring them up they will tell you if she has had a litter registered recently but it does sound like he hasnt done it :/ do they have have an affix ? the breed supplements come out twice a yr i have the recent one if u dnt like saying on here who mum is pm me and ill look for you...


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

mel said:


> the breed supplements come out twice a yr i have the recent one if u dnt like saying on here who mum is pm me and ill look for you...


 it's a quarterly publication that you can also buy yearly


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

swarthy said:


> it's a quarterly publication that you can also buy yearly


yes your correct  im tired


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Due to the DPA / FOI - it's highly unlikely the KC will tell you anything  they are VERY strict in giving out information.
> 
> If you have the breeders name, and the dogs KC registered name, your best bet is to see if someone has a BRS covering the breed for the quarter she was born in.
> 
> ...


They will tell you if a litter has been registered out of a particular bitch. I rang and asked as someone usd one of my studs and told us that she had no pups Someone else told me to find out if that breeder had registered a litter born at the time as it was known that this person would mate 2 bitches and register the litters as one litter. They told me she had registered a litter by different parents that were born at about the right time. A litter of 12 I saw a photo on another forum and the litter was split blue and whites and brindle and whites. My dog was brindle and white and mated a brindle and white bitch.


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

I have had a quick look on the kc health test page which has all the dogs registered with or without health tests,I checked my parents old dog who died 5 years ago age 13 and she was on their and she had no health test done. Anyway the stud dog is registered :thumbup: If you type the bitch's name in you should be able to tell if she is registered. Good luck I hope it works out for you.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Freyja said:


> They will tell you if a litter has been registered out of a particular bitch. I rang and asked as someone usd one of my studs and told us that she had no pups Someone else told me to find out if that breeder had registered a litter born at the time as it was known that this person would mate 2 bitches and register the litters as one litter. They told me she had registered a litter by different parents that were born at about the right time. A litter of 12 I saw a photo on another forum and the litter was split blue and whites and brindle and whites. My dog was brindle and white and mated a brindle and white bitch.


 that's a bit naughty, was it from the bitch your dog mated?  If so, did you find out if she DNA'd the litter, as this is the only way the KC will allow a litter registration if they are made aware there were two stud dogs involved.

Might be me - but sounds - mmmmmm


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Ok, so ive spoken the KC this morning and was told there is no litters registered for the mum. I also asked who the mum was registered to and the name given is not the name of the breeder I recieved my puppy from. When I rung my breeder back he said that he hadnt transfered ownership of hes dog from the previous owner....so can he still register mine and all the other puppies hes dog had or does he need to be the registered owner to do that?

He was upset that he had made such a mess of it all, and I really believe he just doesnt know what hes doing...doesnt help me much tho.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

He needs to be the registered owner of the bitch to register a litter from her. If it's only a matter of him sending in his paperwork for his bitch, and it has been signed by the previous owner then there isn't a problem - unless, of course, the bitch has endorsements on her registration that state the progeny cannot be registered.

I'm very surprised that the owner of the stud dog didn't check all this out before letting their dog be used. I always check the KC paperwork, and health test paperwork before I even consider a bitch for one of my boys.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Thats what I thought, thank you for confirming it. 

The thing is.....he doesnt know who the registered owner is for hes dog, so it'll be impossible for my puppy to get registered.

OOOhhh, what a mess.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

RachaelAnn said:


> Thats what I thought, thank you for confirming it.
> 
> The thing is.....he doesnt know who the registered owner is for hes dog, so it'll be impossible for my puppy to get registered.
> 
> OOOhhh, what a mess.


What a nightmare  is he a breeder, or is there any suspicion he might be a 'dealer' (sorry - but I have to ask) as this sounds like something they might do.

If he bought the bitch himself, how on earth does he not know who he bought it from?

In order to register the pups, as others have said, the bitch will need to be in his name - a very simply process if you have the paperwork.

Did he advertise the pups as KC registered? because if he did - then he has broken the law


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Post the name of the bitch, someone might know something. She might not even be who the breeder says she is


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Yes, they were advertised as KC. His dog is KC, that was checked this morning, and the dad is too as its a well known kennel. He says he never sent the paperwork off but that hes dog come from hes brothers litter and the registered name of hes dog isnt hes brothers.

I dont know what to think. When we viewed the puppy we saw the mum and her paperwork, they all looked in good health and it all seemed right. Its not until we chased the paperwork that the problems started. 

Unless he can trace who owns hes dog our puppy is unable to be registered but it seems unlikely he'll be able to do that.

I love my dog to bits, shes great with or without KC but its what I paid for.

I guess the next step is to ask for a refund, but im not sure I will get that either.

Thank you all for your posts, wish it could of been happier news.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The thing is.....he doesnt know who the registered owner is for hes dog, so it'll be impossible for my puppy to get registered.
> 
> OOOhhh, what a mess.


Oh dear - this really is a mess - I really feel for you.



> What a nightmare is he a breeder, or is there any suspicion he might be a 'dealer' (sorry - but I have to ask) as this sounds like something they might do.


How can he not know who the registered owner is? I have to say, I suspect if he is the breeder it is in the very worst sense. This is a breed of dog that is not for the inexperienced breeder, so I would wonder what other corners he's cut. Like Swarthy, I too, wondered if he could be a dealer. They can come across as very nice and plausible, and worst case scenario, could this bitch perhaps have been stolen? It all sounds very strange, and sadly I think you will have to accept that your pup will not be registered. Given that you implied you paid a lot of money for him, then as Swarthy says, if they were advertised as KC registered - he is breaking the law and I would follow that up.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Wouldn't the registered owners name be on the kc papers he already has ? x


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Think the paper work they have is a generation certificate rather than the kc reg certificate and that on it's own means nothing.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

The only papers for he he has is the five year pedigree.

Yes, we paid alot of money, we saved up to buy a Bulldog as we've always loved them and wanted one.

I think its sad that she cant be registered, that even tho both parents are KC her and the rest of her litter are unable to be because of the laziness of an inexpirenced breeder.

I hope that he sees that he cant breed her again and leave more people in the situation that im in now.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm suprised he ended up with a live bitch and pup


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Ok this may really put the cat amongst the pigeons but, have you spoken to the owner of the stud dog. They would remember if the dog was used around that time especially if it was an 'ai' mating  might be worth finding out if he did use the dog and if he had the necessary paperwork and who owned the bitch when it came to him. 

Hope that makes sense and you get the info you want.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Im not sure that the kennels will thanks me for questioning them but I think it may be worth a try, thank you.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

I will do, thanks a lot for your help.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

RachaelAnn said:


> Im not sure that the kennels will thanks me for questioning them but I think it may be worth a try, thank you.


They produced the puppy and they should take an interest in it


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

RachaelAnn said:


> Im not sure that the kennels will thanks me for questioning them but I think it may be worth a try, thank you.


they will thank you if he is going around saying he used there dog and he hasnt


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Im not sure that the kennels will thanks me for questioning them but I think it may be worth a try, thank you.


I cannot see they will have a problem, and if he is saying he has used the dog and hasn't, then they will definately thank you.
Good luck


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

leoti said:


> they will thank you if he is going around saying he used there dog and he hasnt


You are on the same lines as me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does make you wonder and I think the owner of the dog should be interested in the fact that he produced a litter to what does sound like a dodgy breeder, sorry Rachel Ann but I am not convinced in what he is telling you


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I don't think the bitch is even who he says it is


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

the 5 generation pedigree certificate would still have someone's name on it???
ie bred by or owned by


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> the 5 generation pedigree certificate would still have someone's name on it???
> ie bred by or owned by


only if it is the official kc pedigree


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

You may never get to the bottom of it sadly but at the end of the day the breeder that sold you this pup has misrepresented/misold it to you.

You were led to believe you were buying a KC pup and that has not turned out to be the case.

I would get all your information together and write to the breeder with your complaint stating that whilst you couldn't possibly consider returning the puppy at this late stage you do expect a partial refund in view of the fact that the puppy is not as advertised (not sure what the difference price wise is between a registed or unregistered pup but should be easy to work out if you have a quick look through the free ads sites for a rough guide)

Keep it friendly at first and give him 1 week to respond. If no response i would follow up with a 2nd letter giving him a further 10 days to provide a partial refund or you will be seeking legal advice. It's up to you how far you want to take it, you probably have a good case for the small claims court.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

also save the site with the advert for proof where it states KC registered just incase 

if its still online ...


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Definitely get hold of the original advert. You could pursue this under the Sales of Goods Act as the dog was falsely advertised. Not sure what the outcome would in your favour would be, possibly return of the dog and a full refund, or a reduction in price for a non-KC reg bulldog.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Trade description act may be worth looking into


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Definitely get hold of the original advert. You could pursue this under the Sales of Goods Act as the dog was falsely advertised. Not sure what the outcome would in your favour would be, possibly return of the dog and a full refund, or a reduction in price for a non-KC reg bulldog.


Dogs have to be sold 'as part of a business' to fall under SoGA - although chances are, he is running it as a business 

Even if he isn't - it is still deliberate misrepresentation, and I am sure Trading Standards in his area would be very interested 

I do hope you sort it out - I can only imagine what a nightmare it must be


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Unfortunately, anyone could supply a "pedigree" for any dog. They are not worth the paper they are written on without the KC reg numbers of the sire and dam, and a KC reg for the puppy to back it up.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

If his dogs are KC reg, then the papers he had from that breeder will have thier name and address on them for him to transfer that dog to him. He may of shown you another dogs KC reg papers, they do that sometime in scams.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

just caught up with this, I am so sorry, I hope you can get to the bottom of it all.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

To be honest I think the bloke is trying to pull a fast one. Surely without even having knowledge of breeding you would realise that you are not going to be able to register pups from a bitch not in your own name. 

The advice about writing to him is probably the best idea. Write to him advising that you are unhappy that he has mislead you into thinking that the puppy was KC registered, this was reflected in both false advertising and the price of the puppy. But you would need to be prepared to take it to the small claims court to recoup any money. What he has done is scandelous. 

If you do not want to contact the stud's owners, PM their details I will do it for you ;-)


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Hi, and thank you all for your responses.

I have spoke to the breeder again today who said he had dug hes paperwork out and has a predegree in one name and KC papers in another. I have taken hes breeders details and phoned them and the other name is the name of a pup they sold from the same litter of hes dog...so they got a pedigree in one name and KC papers in another, the new owners of the other dog have registered the dog as thiers. 

So, my breeders pedigree name isnt what hes been using. I phoned KC and sure enough the other dogs name is registered to my breeders brother (which it would be because he never changed ownership).

So he has used the wrong name to breed hes dog. 

He said he would talk to the stud place and see if he can get them to change their details on the dog they breed with their stud, and hopefully they will...although if it was my stud I would be a bit dubious at being asked to swap a dogs name! If they can do that, then hes brother can register the pups for him and I will get papers for my dog.
Its a big ask I know, fingers crossed.

So this expiriance is a warning to myself....... be carefull who I a puppy from, and get the papers when I collect the puppy. 

Thank you all for your help once again.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> He said he would talk to the stud place and see if he can get them to change their details on the dog they breed with their stud


Is he saying that he used his brother's dog's papers to get his bitch pregnant? This is fraud and IMO the stud owner should know. As I said I would go straight to the stud owner. TBH, given his stories, it wouldn't surprise me if the papers are nothing to do with the bitch he has bred. It won't be the first time another dogs papers have been used to register a litter.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

I think hes saying that the paperwork has been muddled somewhere between him and hes breeder and because he never changed ownership of hes dog he never noticed the mistake...and because he never changed ownership the dog is still in hes brothers name (who is the breeder he got hes dog from)


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

So, his brother is the breeder of his dog and it is still registered in his brother's (the breeders) name and he gave his brother the wrong paperwork? OK well it could be, but it still sounds a bit suspicious. One other thing - particularly if he's not bothered registering them - he will need to get the KC's permission if they have used AI, and TBH, I'm doubtful if it will be given. However, good luck.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

I know it sounds completly dodgy...I think ive just ended up with the laziest breeder in the world. He said because hes dog is registered to hes brother he will get hes brother to register the pups.

So, do all dogs that use AI need permission to be KC?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

RachaelAnn said:


> I know it sounds completly dodgy...I think ive just ended up with the laziest breeder in the world. He said because hes dog is registered to hes brother he will get hes brother to register the pups.
> 
> So, do all dogs that use AI need permission to be KC?


 It all sounds a bit hit and miss  - it could just be that they've genuinely just been really lax about it all - or possibly something more sinister 

How old did you say the pup was? whichever person (has to be the breeder - but that can on occasion be in name only) registers the litter needs to be aware, after 12 months, the cost rises to £60 a pup.

I don't know the rules on 'official' AI - I do know the pups are registered with (AI) in brackets after their name.

It does however raise all sorts of questions, because the stud owner needs to witness the mating and sign KC paperwork to that effect - so you can see how complicated things could get


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The breeder used AI for hes dog and so producing my puppy, and the breeders bitch was also produced using AI....so there is 2 generations with no natural litters.....(although Im not sure they were regisiered KC as AI) and reading the last point on the list Im not sure my puppy can be a KC registered dog?????


I don't know the exact rules on AI as they have changed recently, but generally, they will not usually allow it if the stud is in the UK. I'm not an expert in bulldogs at all, but I have heard that they are a difficult to mate breed and breeders sometimes use AI without informing the KC so perhaps this is what they've done. They shouldn't and it's dishonest, but it happens.

I really would advise you to speak to the stud owner. I think you will get a much clearer picture of what is going on.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Ok, thank you so much for your advice. I will ring the stud owner tomorrow and try and get the details from them.

Thanks again.


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

This all sounds familar u didnt buy her frm her from Oldham/Rochdale did u ?


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not an expert in bulldogs at all, but I have heard that they are a difficult to mate breed and breeders sometimes use AI without informing the KC so perhaps this is what they've done. They shouldn't and it's dishonest, but it happens.


Ok its dishonest as far as the KC dnt like it they really do need to move on AI offers no stress to the bitch is very clean for both dog and bitch..how many stud owners do u reckon put their boys on abs every so often ? the cost alone puts a lot off..ive known a lot of litter die due to canine herpes...im not looking for an arguement btw so please dnt slate me


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

No, I brought her from Merseyside. Im not sure I understand the issue with AI, I dont really know why it is not accepted by the KC.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Ok its dishonest as far as the KC dnt like it they really do need to move on AI offers no stress to the bitch is very clean for both dog and bitch..how many stud owners do u reckon put their boys on abs every so often ? the cost alone puts a lot off..ive known a lot of litter die due to canine herpes...im not looking for an arguement btw so please dnt slate me


I'm not going to slate you at all, but I think the KC have very valid reasons for not allowing it and I agree with them. It is done to try to ensure that the genes of those incapable of mating naturally are not continued. Sadly the damage with bulldogs has already been done. Are you in bulldogs - if so perhaps that explains your stance.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Im not sure I understand the issue with AI, I dont really know why it is not accepted by the KC.


It is to prevent the possibilty of breeding dogs that are unable to mate naturally. The very thing that has happened to bulldogs . It does allow it under certain circumstances - ie an overseas stud, and it is why they used to onlyl allow it with dogs that had already produced a litter. This has recently changed and they do allow AI on maiden bitches, but they will no longer register the progeny of that bitch unless they have had a litter from a natural mating. Sadly, the difficulty in natural matings in bulldogs has made many breeders do it anyway and the result is a breed that is rarely able to be mated naturally  - very sad.

The KC gets criticised constantly for being the cause of problems being bred into breeds, but where they take action to avoid this, breeders do it anyway dishonestly to the ruination of the breed.


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## Blissful Dog Groomer (Mar 30, 2010)

thats what my thoughts were about the stolen bit! u any closer to sorting this out yet



rocco33 said:


> Oh dear - this really is a mess - I really feel for you.
> 
> How can he not know who the registered owner is? I have to say, I suspect if he is the breeder it is in the very worst sense. This is a breed of dog that is not for the inexperienced breeder, so I would wonder what other corners he's cut. Like Swarthy, I too, wondered if he could be a dealer. They can come across as very nice and plausible, and worst case scenario, could this bitch perhaps have been stolen? It all sounds very strange, and sadly I think you will have to accept that your pup will not be registered. Given that you implied you paid a lot of money for him, then as Swarthy says, if they were advertised as KC registered - he is breaking the law and I would follow that up.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Without dna the kennel club should refuse to register these puppies


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

RachaelAnn said:


> No, I brought her from Merseyside. Im not sure I understand the issue with AI, I dont really know why it is not accepted by the KC.


your near me i live in st helens plz pm me details i will try n help you x


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> It is to prevent the possibilty of breeding dogs that are unable to mate naturally. The very thing that has happened to bulldogs . It does allow it under certain circumstances - ie an overseas stud, and it is why they used to onlyl allow it with dogs that had already produced a litter. This has recently changed and they do allow AI on maiden bitches, but they will no longer register the progeny of that bitch unless they have had a litter from a natural mating. Sadly, the difficulty in natural matings in bulldogs has made many breeders do it anyway and the result is a breed that is rarely able to be mated naturally  - very sad.
> 
> The KC gets criticised constantly for being the cause of problems being bred into breeds, but where they take action to avoid this, breeders do it anyway dishonestly to the ruination of the breed.


In my opinion the KC is all about money like most other organisations for example anyone can apply to be an accredited breeder there isnt any checks etc u pay the fee your sorted !!! its only when they receive a few complaints they act n remove it !.....

As far as Bulldogs are concerned most can and will mate naturally the only reason we assist is purely due to the size of them..if you have a maiden bitch of a good size and the stud is allowed to tie if she decides she dnt like it then theres a massive problem for both if she bolts then theres huge trauma to him and her so for that reason we dnt allow them to tie.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

mel said:


> As far as Bulldogs are concerned most can and will mate naturally the only reason we assist is purely due to the size of them..if you have a maiden bitch of a good size and the stud is allowed to tie if she decides she dnt like it then theres a massive problem for both if she bolts then theres huge trauma to him and her so for that reason we dnt allow them to tie.


tbh, that to me doesnt sound like a natural mating then.

i certainly dont need anyone to help me on and off my mrs amd she is huge.:mad2:
please tell me i never wrote that:lol:


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not going to slate you at all, but I think the KC have very valid reasons for not allowing it and I agree with them. It is done to try to ensure that the genes of those incapable of mating naturally are not continued. Sadly the damage with bulldogs has already been done. Are you in bulldogs - if so perhaps that explains your stance.


Bulldogs are more than capable of mating please dont say my breed is incapable when you really dnt know about the breed...sorry if i sound arsey but im fed up of my breed being slated for no good reason apart from what they hear !


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

davehyde said:


> tbh, that to me doesnt sound like a natural mating then.
> 
> i certainly dont need anyone to help me on and off my mrs amd she is huge.:mad2:
> please tell me i never wrote that:lol:


how is it not a natural mate ? he gets on the bitch does his buisness only difference is his knot is kept out of the bitch so theres no tie ??


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Im not sure, Ive been told to give it a fdew days and see if it can all be sorted out so I guess I will know on wednesday or thursday.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> he gets on the bitch does his buisness only difference is his knot is kept out of the bitch so theres no tie ??


So they cannot tie?

TBH, it was to illustrate why the KC don't allow AI and as this was concerning a bulldog it just happened to be a useful illustration. The KC restrictions on using AI apply to all breeds equally, however, it is only those breeds that have difficulty achieving a natural mating that think AI is better.

Yes, they may achieve penetration, but rarely without help and support. They overheat, require support of a special table or hands on support as the heavy front end and make it more comfortable for the bitch, have difficulty achieving a tie, frequently require c-sections. This is not natural breeding and the KC has set up these rules to prevent this becoming commonplace in breeds so we have dogs that are unable to mate naturally.



> if she decides she dnt like it then theres a massive problem for both if she bolts then theres huge trauma to him and her so for that reason we dnt allow them to tie.


This is a danger for any breed which is why anyone who has a stud dog should have experience handling a mating and once a mating is achieved, they should be held until finished.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Im not sure, Ive been told to give it a fdew days and see if it can all be sorted out so I guess I will know on wednesday or thursday.


Told by whom? - the breeders? 
TBH, I'd ring the stud and see if Mel can help cos I have a suspicion that these breeders are not as naive as they come across. I hope I am wrong, but suspect you may end up with fraudulent papers.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Oh, im going to ring too and just check.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Any news / update?


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Im told that everything is fine and that the litter has been registered...just waiting 4 the paperwork so we'll see. Fingers crossed that its really happened. Thanks everyone for the help


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

RachaelAnn said:


> Im told that everything is fine and that the litter has been registered...just waiting 4 the paperwork so we'll see. Fingers crossed that its really happened. Thanks everyone for the help


Keeping everything crossed for you


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> So they cannot tie?
> 
> TBH, it was to illustrate why the KC don't allow AI and as this was concerning a bulldog it just happened to be a useful illustration. The KC restrictions on using AI apply to all breeds equally, however, it is only those breeds that have difficulty achieving a natural mating that think AI is better.
> 
> ...


ive been away for a few days so missed this reply....i really do get you but whats the answer do we stop breeding Bulldogs ? in my experience i dnt and never will mate a girl if she has to be held down or put in a cradle but it does happen ....... i suppose im fortunate that my stud is healthy and shows no signs of overheating he knows when the girls ready n refuses her if she isnt....sections are frequent again due to ppl firmly believing they cnt give birth natural but they can and do aslong as u got a good vet on hand who will support you 24/7 theres no need not to try..one of my girls suffers inertia so she had to have a section....going back to the reason u posted i really dnt get the KC not allowing AI it wud be great to have a post of ppls views im all in favour of it would be an intersting read also theres pics and videos on the net of dogs tied without ppl holding them so it does happen xxx


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2010)

mel said:


> ive been away for a few days so missed this reply....i really do get you but whats the answer do we stop breeding Bulldogs ?


personally i think we need to start breeding for bulldogs who are 'fit for purpose' and get them back to how they were originally bred to look, then much fewer individuals would have problems mating and whelping.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Shamen said:


> personally i think we need to start breeding for bulldogs who are 'fit for purpose' and get them back to how they were originally bred to look, then much fewer individuals would have problems mating and whelping.


do we know what percentage do have problems mating and whelping?? is it certain lines for instance that have the problem?


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2010)

dexter said:


> do we know what percentage do have problems mating and whelping?? is it certain lines for instance that have the problem?


tbh i have know idea... but i know because of their overly exaggerated heads and shoulders its not uncommon.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Shamen said:


> tbh i have know idea... but i know because of their overly exaggerated heads and shoulders its not uncommon.


i wondered if it was certain lines. i had a freind who breed them (doesn't now) and hers were always self whelping.


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2010)

dexter said:


> i wondered if it was certain lines. i had a freind who breed them (doesn't now) and hers were always self whelping.


thats good to hear but i wonder did they whelp the puppies easily? only im afraid i also feel sorry for bully brood bitches who do manage whelp naturally, because i always think passing pups with such big heads and shoulders would be an extra strain on them.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

dexter said:


> i wondered if it was certain lines. i had a freind who breed them (doesn't now) and hers were always self whelping.


I think it depends on the lines too, My friend at college bred them hers where ok too.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

dexter said:


> do we know what percentage do have problems mating and whelping?? is it certain lines for instance that have the problem?


86.1% apparently. However, I would imagine that there are a fair few elective cesarians in that figure though.

Why do over 80 per cent of Bulldog births happen by caesarian section? - Telegraph Blogs


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Any further news from the OP?

seems funny to me that after all that trouble and confusion, all is suddenly well with what seems as though it would be a very difficult situation to register the litter and that the papers are on their way to the OP... she/he must be climbing the walls with frustration, I know I would be in this situation!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> 86.1% apparently. However, I would imagine that there are a fair few elective cesarians in that figure though.
> 
> Why do over 80 per cent of Bulldog births happen by caesarian section?  Telegraph Blogs


I can answer the title of the link..... Why do over 80 per cent of Bulldog births happen by caesarian section? Because the majority of bulldog breeders are pet breeders and breed any 2 dogs together that they think look like bulldogs are meant to and choose the males with the biggest heads and broadest shoulders to get puppies to look the same. A show breeder chooses by compatibility as naturally they don't want to risk a C section occuring.

I imagine that if you tallied up all the "show" bred litters and all the "pet" bred litters then there would be a bigger percentage of c sections happening in the pet bred litters than the show. I follow show lines of Bullies and in most cases they are self whelped (intervention needed after though as bullies are clumsy, like most heavy breeds) with minimal bitches needing a c section.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> I can answer the title of the link..... Why do over 80 per cent of Bulldog births happen by caesarian section? Because the majority of bulldog breeders are pet breeders and breed any 2 dogs together that they think look like bulldogs are meant to and choose the males with the biggest heads and broadest shoulders to get puppies to look the same. A show breeder chooses by compatibility as naturally they don't want to risk a C section occuring.
> 
> I imagine that if you tallied up all the "show" bred litters and all the "pet" bred litters then there would be a bigger percentage of c sections happening in the pet bred litters than the show. I follow show lines of Bullies and in most cases they are self whelped (intervention needed after though as bullies are clumsy, like most heavy breeds) with minimal bitches needing a c section.


That makes sense. A very experienced breeder friend of mine mated and whelped a bulldog on behalf of a friend many years ago and everything went entirely naturally.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> ive been away for a few days so missed this reply....i really do get you but whats the answer do we stop breeding Bulldogs ? in my experience i dnt and never will mate a girl if she has to be held down or put in a cradle but it does happen ....... i suppose im fortunate that my stud is healthy and shows no signs of overheating he knows when the girls ready n refuses her if she isnt....sections are frequent again due to ppl firmly believing they cnt give birth natural but they can and do aslong as u got a good vet on hand who will support you 24/7 theres no need not to try..one of my girls suffers inertia so she had to have a section....going back to the reason u posted i really dnt get the KC not allowing AI it wud be great to have a post of ppls views im all in favour of it would be an intersting read also theres pics and videos on the net of dogs tied without ppl holding them so it does happen xxx


Sorry, I've only just picked up on this.
I certainly wouldn't say the answer is to stop breeding bulldogs and if this is the only way for the breed to survive, then obviously it needs to happen, but with encouraging natural mating, breeding towards having a dog that can physically mate naturally (which, as you say yours do), but I think allowing it will open the floodgates to any breed doing it and before long we will have many dogs incapable of natural matings - not something I would like to see, and I agree with the KC on this.
The potential dangers of a mating (bitch taking a dislike to the dog etc) can happen with any breed, which is why it is important that an experienced stud handler is on hand, but I don't think having potential dangers is sufficient to bring changes that could mean natural matings are not the norm (I suspect that if AI was allowed routinely it would become the norm).

Just out of interest, how do breeders in your breed get around the AI regulations - do they just not declare it on the registrations, or does the KC allow it (or turn a blind eye) for breeds where it is commonplace.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I know a big breeder who has champions and she told me its very rare to get a natural mating with no human intervention.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I know a big breeder who has champions and she told me its very rare to get a natural mating with no human intervention.


yep i know someone who says the same.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I also know a breeder who is only in it for the money. she doesnt even try and whelp naturally then she takes the pups away and puts them on the bitch every 2 hours. It is so unnatural but I suppose she reckons it is worth it as she can average 6 pups at £1500 a time.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I also know a breeder who is only in it for the money. she doesnt even try and whelp naturally then she takes the pups away and puts them on the bitch every 2 hours. It is so unnatural but I suppose she reckons it is worth it as she can average 6 pups at £1500 a time.


This is the same for most Bullie breeders as far as I am aware, just because they are so clumsy they are so prone to lying on young.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm afraid I will never understand why a breed of dogs that cannot mate or birth naturally are bred. Its so sad for all concerned.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Hi, sorry its been a whille...thought I would update the situation. 

Im afraid at the moment its still not good news. I still have no papers for Lucy, and im not sure there is much more I can do. I have spoke to the breeder so often and am always told hes waiting for something in the post...what, I dont know!

I did however speak to Dawn (breeding kennels) and her dog was deffinatly breed with my puppies mum. She is going to contact the breeder and hopefully sort out whatever has gone wrong. 

Lucy is going to be one at the end of the week, I never imagined that 12 months later I would still be worried about KC papers.

Kennel club are still saying no litters have been registered!!!

Fingers crossed that Dawn has more luck then I have had.

On the bright side....Lucy is gorgeous, shes healthy and happy and is so good, even with all the trouble im glad ive got her


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

RachaelAnn said:


> Hi, sorry its been a whille...thought I would update the situation.
> 
> Im afraid at the moment its still not good news. I still have no papers for Lucy, and im not sure there is much more I can do. I have spoke to the breeder so often and am always told hes waiting for something in the post...what, I dont know!
> 
> ...


I own 2 stud boys and get lots of enquires i always insist they bring all paperwork for me too look at, i have had a few ppl who to be fair to them believe they have 'papers' only to turn up with DL papers it can be hard explaining to them that their beloved girl isnt actually KC reg and that im not willing to put my boy to her but i refuse to allow it...im thinking maybe thats been the problem with ur pups mum that maybe she isnt KC registered
i cnt think of any other valid reason that ur still being messed about :/

I glad Lucy is doing well and even though sadly you will never have her babies the main thing is she got you and is happy and healthy xx


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

I have seen her papers, and so have the stud kennel owner, I have also checked with KC that the dog is registered to the owner.

I have no idea why she hasnt been registered.

I think I still have a slight ray of hope that ive placed in Dawn...that she will somehow magically make it all come good  (wishfull thinking maybe)

But other then a huge amount of money down the drain ( I have asked for a refund, not sure whether it'll happen tho....or whether I can force it somehow???) I feel that my beautifull dog has been denied her rights 

She is my baby tho and I wouldnt be without her. 

Thank you for your comment.

xx


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

RachaelAnn said:


> I have seen her papers, and so have the stud kennel owner, I have also checked with KC that the dog is registered to the owner.
> 
> I have no idea why she hasnt been registered.
> 
> ...


Its just bloody daft if she is registered and i know that Dawns are why on earth is he messing you about ?? surely its not cost ? you must be bursting with frustration !! did u get a contract with her ? problem is with 'dog' issues is that there isnt many solicitors willing to take it on  i know the KC will intervene as much as they can (wen harrassed) but in this case even their hands are tied......im not suprised your pee'd off with it all and this isnt a dig at you at all its a general comment but i hope ppl read this and never hand over their hard earned cash without having KC papers in their hand :/ Dawns a good one and im sure if she can help she will xx


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Thank you. I hope people read it to as I would hate them to feel like this too. I would never have taken her without papers either but the breeder is my boyfriends brother. (which makes things that little bit harder) so I just trusted that he would do as he said and post the papers to me. Its causing all sorts of arguments because im now having to check up on everything hes said ( like ringing KC and Dawn) so hes clearly annoyed with me but I have been patiently waiting for a long time. 

What a mess hey 

Thanks for the comments.

Fingers crossed for Dawn


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## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

RachaelAnn said:


> I think hes saying that the paperwork has been muddled somewhere between him and hes breeder and because he never changed ownership of hes dog he never noticed the mistake...and because he never changed ownership the dog is still in hes brothers name (who is the breeder he got hes dog from)





RachaelAnn said:


> I would never have taken her without papers either but the breeder is my boyfriends brother. (which makes things that little bit harder) so I just trusted that he would do as he said and post the papers to me.


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

A different brother....not my boyfriend!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

That should be very simple to rectify. The brother who bred the litter simply needs to put the bitch in his name (can be done online) and register the litter. Alternatively, the brother who's name is on the registration papers can register them, but they will be registered as his litter. Not normally done unless a bitch is on loan, but as they are brothers and if he was involved, can't see any problem with it.
From what you say I'm assuming there are three brothers one of which is your boyfriend


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## RachaelAnn (Jun 13, 2010)

Well there are 5 brothers, 1 of them is my boyfriend 

I no it can be done, I just dont no why it hasnt been.

I have been told once again that papers are on there way. He says he made a mistake and put hes girl under the Sire...???

There always seems to be a mistake or excuse, hopefully this time its true.

Thank you for you replies.

xx


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