# Cereals, potatoes in dog food.



## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Are cereals beneficial in dog diet or are they just cheap filler and source of energy? Are they there to lower the cost and bulk out the food? Are cereals of no benefit to a dog? Are cereals in dog food just cause of smelly winds, runny poos, alergies, etc.? Should we avoid dog food having cereals in it at all cost?

I asked editor of a dog food review site, if it is all right to feed a dog food comprising cereals and if all meat diet is good for dog. 

Here is the answer: " Cereals are fine, though some are better and more digestible. Rice, maize, barley and oats are generally OK, wheat is cheaper and causes more problems with allergies.

I don't think an all meat diet is best, domestic dogs have evolved to thrive on a diet closer to human food, a mix of protein, fat and carbohydrate."

So, what do you think? Should we feel quilty when we feed dogs avarage food with cereals in it? Can dogs thrive, be happy and healthy when they are fed cereals? Is food marked with 4, 5, 6 stars in various reviews really the best and only?
I would love to know what you think.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Some people will tell you cereal is good others make it out to be the devil...

I personally don't mind cereal in dog food, I just can't stand colours and e numbers.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

I doubt anyone will give you a definitive answer on this as there's simply not enough unbiased research. All you'll get on here are 'opinions' which are fine, as long as you accept that everything you read on the internet is an 'opinion' too. Anyone can set up a web page and post whatever they like. Doesn't make it fact.

Personally I would love to feed an all meat diet, maybe with a few veggies and fruit thrown in for vitamins and enjoyment, but my own dog does better on higher fibre.

There's no one single answer I don't think. We're told that we should eat some wholesome complex carbs for sustained energy, yet try telling someone who is gluten intolerant that they should have wholemeal pasta or bread...


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## BeckyC (Jun 9, 2012)

I personally do not like grains in my dogs diet, the only ones I have been somewhat happy feeding to my dog is oats and rice but even then they just haven't agreed with my dog's tummy. He does much better without them but that is just him. My parents feed their Spaniel a high grain diet and he has no issues what so ever and is in good health.  I just think there is no set answer here.


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## Micky93 (May 15, 2012)

Before getting Eddie, grains were not an issue for us and our dogs. They had all done well on whatever they were fed.

Eddie however has a grain intolerance and becomes very itchy if he's on a food with grains. He does very well on the wainwrights salmon and potato, although I am looking at trying him on the Simpsons 80/20. 

So, in answer to your question: I believe it depends on the dog. Our past dogs Meg and Mulder were fine with grain in their food, Eddie however is not.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I'll start, by saying, yes I'm biased, I feed raw and prey model at that.

For this discussion though, first take a look at a dog's mouth. Can you see adaptations to eat a vegetable based diet? A useful comparison is a badger or bear. There you can see flat molars designed to grind/pulp vegetable matter, breaking down plant cell walls necessary for digestion. A dog simply doesn't have these.

A recent study shows dogs have a gene to produce amalyse, an enzyme designed to break down these cell walls. However dogs haven't developed extra stomachs to ferment cellulose, the pancreas still can't secrete cellulase to break down cellulose into glucose molecules. So we have a slight adaptation to cope with vegetation, not as a primary source of nutrition but as a secondary/emergency source. It's simply a fact dogs are not efficient at digestion of raw plant material.

So back to commercial food... In commercial food most of the work of digestion has already been done. It's been processed to such an extent it's no longer similar to the raw material. Instead of being digested slowly, it's now readily digested into blood glucose. Ideal for energy quickly but potentially with problems. Obesity and behavioural problems are just two possibilities. High blood glucose levels are controlled by the production of insulin. Over time, excessive insulin secretion may impair the pancreas's ability to secrete it and that may lead to diabetes. I've seen estimates that between 1 in 200 to 1 in 500 dogs now suffer from diabetes. The problem and likelyhood of developing diabetes is apparently worse if the dog in question is allowed to graze throughout the day rather than having specific meals but haven't found anything which proves this.

Then we have to consider the carbohydrate discussion. Useful or not? Commercial dry food needs to have carbohydrates to actually form the pellets. I've seen reports that some carbohydrates can be useful for a dog. Somewhere in the 7-12% range. Dogs do not need carbohydrates to survive though. The food nutrient profiles such as the AAFCO don't actually list carbohydrates as a requirement. In fact the EU dog food nutrient profile states:


> The recommendation for protein assumes the diet contains some carbohydrate to decrease the risk of hypoglycaemia in the bitch and neonatal mortality. If carbohydrate is absent or at a very low level, the protein requirement is much higher, and may be double


So in commercial food cereal is used as an energy source and an efficient one as it's so processed. It's great for fulfilling the scientific laboratory bullet points of nutrition for labels. What else..

Allergies. Very few dogs are actually allergic to grain. Most are either intolerant to it or allergic/intolerant to contaminants with the grain. The other concern is obviously contaminants such as pesticides etc.

My opinion as to why grain etc is used. It's historical (first dog food 1860 used waste grain), it's cheap and commercial companies have pushed science to validate it, not because it's better, but dogs can survive using it. Whenever mankind has thought it could do better than nature, especially when commercial companies get involved, there's always been unwanted results. Never seen a dog with an blender or oven. A dog will thrive on a species appropriate diet, not one to fulfill commercial requirements. That means meat based.



> Should we feel quilty when we feed dogs avarage food with cereals in it? Can dogs thrive, be happy and healthy when they are fed cereals? Is food marked with 4, 5, 6 stars in various reviews really the best and only?


All that's around is opinion, even science as that constantly changes. Investigate and form your own opinion and act on it. Don't simply feed something because you can't be bothered to do different. If you do, then you should feel guilty.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

I would love to feed a totally grain free diet long term BUT personally I don't believe a dog kept as a pet needs the protein levels that most of these provide (38 to 40+%) even if it is "good protein" - Maisie would be even more hyper on this!

I don't believe all cereals are bad - rice is my preferred option but oats / barley are OK too.

As my mum says, when she was growing up and was at her Gran's - the dogs got whatever was left on the plates (so meat, veg, potatoes etc) but there would also be things like dumplings (made from flour) and if there was nothing left ... the dogs got a slice of bread with butter / sugar on.

Now .... that horrifies me, but they were healthy and lived just as long as our Labs do now so ....


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Maisie would be even more hyper on this!


Protein <> hyper. No evidence of this whatsoever or if there is please let me know where. Carbohydrates = high blood glucose.. or a sugar rush. Dogs are not humans, they are biologically designed to process protein and to store the processed form in the muscles etc to be released as needed, not simply released and let the energy float around the blood system just in case it's needed.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Inca never had a a problem with any cereals in her food though she was fed JWB which had rice & barley in for most of her life. I sometimes used to get her the flavours with veg instead for variety but never really relaised the difference until I got JJ who does have a cereal intolerance. 

He seems ok with fresh rice and he's had it in naturediet and been fine but I've given him rice bones and he's been nibbling at his feet all night shortly after.and the same if its in kibble. I can only think its something to do with the manuafacturing process in that instance. ..but wheat in any shape or form does make him itch and his poo's very sloppy.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Protein <> hyper. No evidence of this whatsoever or if there is please let me know where. Carbohydrates = high blood glucose.. or a sugar rush. Dogs are not humans, they are biologically designed to process protein and to store the processed form in the muscles etc to be released as needed, not simply released and let the energy float around the blood system just in case it's needed.


Again, like whether they can eat cereals or not, IMHE depends on the dog.

I feed Maisie at around 25% protein & she's OK - I've fed her stuff that's 38% protein and she's absolutely nuts .... if nothing else has changed (lifestyle, exercise intensity etc) then _for her_ it has to be considered a factor.

She has suffered from EIC in the past - she is a hugely active dog and requires *a lot *of exercise - it's trying to keep that in balance and being able to do that without letting her be absolutely nuts and do herself damage.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> I feed Maisie at around 25% protein & she's OK - I've fed her stuff that's 38% protein and she's absolutely nuts .... if nothing else has changed (lifestyle, exercise intensity etc) then _for her_ it has to be considered a factor.


And if you changed the food to another high protein one, with different ingredients would you get the same result? Is it the protein level or an ingredient which is causing the problem?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Goblin said:


> And if you changed the food to another high protein one, with different ingredients would you get the same result? Is it the protein level or an ingredient which is causing the problem?


Unless it's potato ....... she can only tolerate fish, chicken & turkey so am really limited.

Yes in an ideal world .... but the high protein levels don't work for her unfortunately


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## Freya'n'Sassy (Aug 13, 2008)

Cereals and veg have no place what so ever in a carnivores diet. Commercial foods are only full of them because they are cheaper than meat. And before anyone says that dogs are not carnivores the Smithsonian Institue says they are, and their digestive tract is identical to that of a wolf. A dog may survive on a bad diet of things they are not designed to eat (just as we do) but they will not thrive, and in the long term there will be health problems.

My 7 dogs are on a meat, organ and bone diet, they NEVER get anything commercially made, and that includes supposed meat products.... You just don't know what is in them.

Once upon a time I used a supposedly really good kibble dog "food". I had a Cocker Spaniel who was always scratching, and a male Newfoundland who had joint problems, and at the age of 3 I thought we would have to have him pts because he couldn't even get up to go out for a wee, we had to lift him. As I had just bought a raw fed pup and she was healthy I decided to put all the dogs onto the raw diet. Within a couple of weeks the Newf was getting up and pottering in the garden! Within a few months he was chasing a ball in the garden. After 6 months his joints had stopped all the horrible cracking they made. Now, 5+ years on, our over 8 year old boy acts like an idiot and bounces up and down when excited!!! He can jump up, run and go for long walks, and that is all down to not being given crappy cereal laden kibble. He has no suppliments, unless you class fish body oil as one (I use Kronch salmon oil for all the dogs), and where as he was always at the vets before changing his diet, he hasn't been since we did change it!! Oh and the itchy spaniel is no longer itchy!! It took a few months for her to stop with all the scratching, but now she is a fine healthy 7 year old now.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Unless it's potato ....... she can only tolerate fish, chicken & turkey so am really limited.
> 
> Yes in an ideal world .... but the high protein levels don't work for her unfortunately


 JJ is same ..He's on JWB which has a grain free version and one single protein either fish, turkey or lamb. We're on the Ocean Fish & veg.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Freya'n'Sassy said:


> Cereals and veg have no place what so ever in a carnivores diet. Commercial foods are only full of them because they are cheaper than meat. And before anyone says that dogs are not carnivores the *Smithsonian Institue says they are, and their digestive tract is identical to that of a wolf*. A dog may survive on a bad diet of things they are not designed to eat (just as we do) but they will not thrive, and in the long term there will be health problems.


It's not identical, it's proportionately (to the size of the dog) about 1/4 to 1/3 longer. Omnivores and vegetation-eaters have longer guts.

And the Smithsonian Institute's comment was made before the discovery that dogs can produce amylase.



Goblin said:


> For this discussion though, first take a look at a dog's mouth. Can you see adaptations to eat a vegetable based diet? A useful comparison is a badger or bear. There you can see flat molars designed to grind/pulp vegetable matter, breaking down plant cell walls necessary for digestion. A dog simply doesn't have these.
> 
> A recent study shows dogs have a gene to produce amalyse, an enzyme designed to break down these cell walls. However dogs haven't developed *extra stomachs to ferment cellulose*, the pancreas still can't secrete cellulase to break down cellulose into glucose molecules. So we have a slight adaptation to cope with vegetation, not as a primary source of nutrition but as a secondary/emergency source. It's simply a fact dogs are not efficient at digestion of raw plant material.


Neither have I, or any of the millions of people living on the planet whose subsistence diet is cereal - rice, sorghum etc. And yet they survive...
The thing is, the cereals are cooked. Gorrillas eat leaves; they don't have extra stomachs either. Dogs live alongside people that cook their food and they get the leftovers. There's no reason for them to need extra stomachs.

A badger's mouth/skull isn't hugely different to that of a dog; the teeth are a bit flatter, but there is no facility for side-to-side grinding. I have a badger skull upstairs, and the jaw is firmly fixed (interestingly, the upper and lower jaws remain fixed together long after death; usually when you find a skull the lower jaw has come away, in badgers they stay joined).

I think dogs are primarily carnivores, but have taken a small evolutionary step towards an omniverous diet because of their close association with humans.

Some dogs are OK with cereals in their diet, some not. One of mine is cereal intolerant (gets persistent colitis if there are any cereals in her diet). My other dog is fine on a food with rice in, but I wouldn't buy food with maize or wheat.

Modern wheat varieties have much more gluten than the old types, and the difference is clear in the number of humans suffereing gluten intolerance - but it makes life easier for the bakers if they can produce a cheap fluffy loaf that people have been conned into thinking is what decent bread should be like. But that's another topic!


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Are dogs really carnivores?
Many people believe that dogs are carnivores and, as such, require a diet of raw meat to be healthy. The truth is, dogs are not actually carnivores, nor are they omnivorous; they are carnivorous scavengers. This means that while a dog does need a meat-based diet, some amount of vegetable matter is also a normal and desirable part of dog nutrition. A diet of raw meat alone may not meet your dog's nutrient requirements.

While a dog's digestive tract is much shorter than that of an omnivore, and therefore less adept at digesting grains and carbohydrates, dogs are capable of digesting starch and carbs that have been cooked. The fiber available in grains, such as rice and barley, help keep your dog from overeating. They also protect against colon cancer.

It's also untrue that dogs can't digest cooked or processed protein. Dogs have no problem using the protein in cooked meat. However, they should receive dietary protein from multiple sources for optimum health.

Read more: Dog Nutrition Myths - VetInfo


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Renata, do you actually have a point, or an opinion, or any knowledge at all, or are you only capable of copying and pasting the words of others from various websites?


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Barley


Barley is commonly used in dog food in a variety of forms. Once cooked it is easily digested by dogs and provides abundant fibre and several micronutrients including selenium and copper. Whole grain barley is the best form as it retains most of its nutrients.

In humans, barley gluten has been indicated as a problem ingredient for celiacs so if you are looking for a gluten free food, it would probably be best to steer clear of barley as well as wheat.

Cereals


The general terms 'cereals' and 'grains' can refer to any product of any cereal including wheat, rice, oats, barley, maize etc.

Although the term 'cereals' attracts a lot of criticism, it must be noted that it does not necessarily indicate the presence of low grade ingredients as it encompasses all grains, from the best to the very worst. For example, some producers of good foods use broad terms like this in order to not give away their 'secret formula' and some imported foods list very high quality grains as 'cereals' simply because the laws or customs in their home country are different. At the opposite end of the scale, the term can be used for very low-grade grain products including some that are nutritionally very poor and others that have been linked to dietary intolerance. Also, because the type of cereal isn't specified, manufacturers are able to change their grain source between batches depending on what is available at the time.

Because it is impossible to know what 'cereals' refers to, we would suggest assuming the worst and avoiding foods with this ingredient. This is particularly important if your dog is prone to dietary intolerance as identifying and eliminating problem ingredients is impossible unless you know exactly what you are feeding.

Maize / Corn


Maize (or corn to us Brits) is widely used in dry dog foods as an alternative to grains like rice, oats and barley. Of all of the grains used in dog food, maize is certainly amongst the most controversial, with vocal critics and supporters in equal measure.

It has to be said though that many of the most ardent supporters of maize are from within the pet food industry. They correctly argue that maize is a good quality, nutritious carbohydrate source with a comparable nutritional profile to grains like oats and barley.

Critics of maize, on the other hand, claim that it is harder for dogs to digest and is therefore much more likely to lead to food intolerance or allergies. Many canine nutritionists and some vets now recommend avoiding maize based diets altogether.

Maize germ


Like wheat germ and rice germ, maize germ is the part of the grain that would grow into the new plant. Relative to the whole maize grain, the germ is tiny making up only about 10% of the total weight, but it contains the vast majority of the grain's non-carb nutrients including a very high level of essential omega-6 oils and other healthy unsaturated oils along with a good dose of vitamin E, A and K.

Many canine nutritionists believe that the carbs in maize are more difficult to digest than those in many other grains making it more likely to lead to dietary intolerance. Maize germ, on the other hand, does not include any of the starchy endosperm (the source of virtually all of the grain's carbohydrates and gluten) which makes it much less likely to lead to any adverse reaction.

Maize gluten


Maize gluten (sometimes called maize gluten meal, corn gluten or prairie meal) is a by-product of maize processing and can be used to top-up the protein levels of dog foods, usually as an alternative to more expensive meat-proteins. Unfortunately, maize gluten protein is not as easy for dogs to deal with as protein from meat sources and as a result it can lead to health issues like skin problems and hyperactivity. For this reason, we would recommend steering clear of maize gluten, especially with sensitive dogs.

Millet


Millet is a grain that is relatively easy for dogs to digest and is rich in B vitamins, iron and potassium. Millet is also gluten free and so makes a useful carbohydrate choice for hypoallergenic diets.

Oats


Oats are used very widely in dog foods. They are a good source of dietary fibre as well as a host of micronutrients including manganese, selenium, vitamin B1, magnesium and phosphorus. Once cooked, oats are relatively easily digested by dogs.

Rice - brown / whole grain


Rice comes in many forms, from long grain and basmati varieties to shorter forms like pearl rice and short-grain rice. The nutritional characteristics of most forms of rice is very similar, and most varieties can be found in both their whole, brown form and their polished, white form.

Brown rice (or whole-grain rice as it is also known) is widely regarded as a 'superfood' for humans and as long as it is well cooked, it is easily digested by dogs. It contains a whole host of natural nutrients including three B vitamins, iron, manganese, selenium, magnesium and omega-3 oils. It is also a good source of dietary fibre which is important in maintaining intestinal health. It is the grain of choice for most British natural dog food producers.

Rice - white


Rice comes in many forms, from long grain and basmati varieties to shorter forms like pearl rice and short-grain rice. The nutritional characteristics of most forms of rice is very similar, and most varieties can be found in both their whole, brown form and their polished, white form.

White rice is simply brown rice that has been milled and polished to remove outer bran, germ and aleurone layers. Unfortunately, these layers contain the vast majority of the grain's nutrients and once removed the remaining white rice is almost entirely starch.

On ingredient lists, white rice is often listed simply as 'rice'. In general, unless it specifically says that the rice is brown or whole grain, it is usually safe to assume the rice being used is white.

Rice bran


During the production of white rice, the outer layers of the grain are removed as a by-product known as rice bran. Without the starchy white part of the rice, rice bran is incredibly nutritious, with abundant vitamins B1, B3 and B6, iron, manganese, selenium, magnesium and omega-3 oils as well as health-promoting natural antioxidants. Rice Bran is an excellent source of high-quality fibre which is important for over-all digestive health.

Rice germ


Before processing, rice grains are made up of four parts: the hard outer hull, the inner seed coat or pericarp, the starchy endosperm (which goes on to make white rice) and the embryo or germ. The germ is a fairly insubstantial part of the whole grain, comprising only about 2% of the whole, but it is this tiny bud that would grow into a new rice plant, using the endosperm as its food source.

Despite it's small size, the germ contains a very large proportion of the rice grain's vitamins and is very rich in several B vitamins, particularly thiamine.

Rice bran is made up of the pericarp and the germ.
Rye


Rye is a high quality grain with a nutritional profile fairly similar to that of barley but unlike barley, rye is gluten free making it suitable for celiac dogs and many dogs with grain intolerance. As with all grains, rye is best in its whole grain form as it retains much more of its nutrients.

Sorghum


Sorghum is a grass and its grain is widely used in dog foods as an inexpensive alternative to traditional grains. Sorghum grain is high in starch and has a similar nutrient profile to maize. Like maize, it does not compare well against higher-quality grains like rice, oats and barley. Unlike maize though, sorghum is gluten free so it is often recommended for dogs that are prone to food intolerance.

Spelt


Spelt is an ancient variety of wheat which has been cultivated by people since the bronze age. It provides a much broader range of nutrients than common wheat and is a good source of B vitamins, magnesium and fibre. Probably because it has been with us and our dogs for so long, many dogs and people that are intolerant to wheat seem to have no problems with spelt. Spelt does however contain wheat gluten and so should not be fed to coeliac dogs.

Spelt protein


Spelt is an ancient variety of wheat which has been cultivated by people since the bronze age. It is about 17% protein and contains a broad range of amino acids. For this reason, isolated spelt protein is sometimes used to top up a food's protein content. Probably because it has been with us and our dogs for so long, many dogs and people that are intolerant to wheat protein seem to have no problems with spelt protein. Spelt protein does however include gluten and so should not be fed to coeliac dogs. As always, we recommend sticking with foods with a good source of meat proteins as, from our experience, vegetable and grain proteins can be harder for dogs to digest.

Wheat


Wheat is a common staple in many lower-grade dry dog foods as it is inexpensive and is ideal for forming biscuits and kibbles. It is, however, regularly linked with dietary intolerance in dogs which makes it a highly controversial ingredient.

In wheat intolerant dogs (also called celiacs), the gluten protein contained in the grain damages the lining of the small intestine and prevents it from absorbing parts of food that are important for staying healthy. Wheat intolerance can therefore lead to wide-ranging health problems most commonly affecting the skin, coat and digestive system.

Source: Which Dog Food.co.uk


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

I have an opinion, I have a point and I would love to know other people opinions. I love it, when people share their knowledge and experience. What is wrong with that? Who are you to mock me? 
I think, that cereals are beneficial to dogs, if that is, what you asked.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Renata, do you actually have a point, or an opinion, or any knowledge at all, or are you only capable of copying and pasting the words of others from various websites?


Shouldn't that read 'copying and pasting the words of others *that agree with her own opinion*.

Lots of people can and will copy and paste text from websites that contradict this opinion, but you generally only take notice of anything which says what you want it to.

However, the more info that's copied and pasted on here the better, so people can make their own informed choices I guess.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

BBC Nature - Dogs' evolution shows why they 'love' gnawing on bones

Personally I like the term hypercarnivore. It's not saying dogs need vegetation but is saying meat should be the primary component of the diet.

Something else to consider:
Lal the chicken-eating cow - Tetrapod Zoology (people may not want to look at videos within).

Does this mean cows should now be labelled as omnivores, not herbivores? What happens when man thinks they know better, as science proves it can be done... It was commercially viable to feed cows animal remains in the late 1980's, backed up by science, which led to 4.4 million cows being slaughtered in an eradication program against Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE). Unfortunately before that time it had entered the human foodchain to cause Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD). A one off people may say, indeed strict checks were put in place to prevent it happening again. Isn't the issue larger though? Surely we need to look at the biology and nature of an animal and match commercialism to that rather than use science to prove animals can be fed a certain way as it's more profitable? How many new high meat commercial dog foods are on the market each year and why? If people couldn't see improvements to their dogs they wouldn't continue buying them.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

My dogs are not vegetarians and it is meat they predominantly get in their food. They are on dry dog food (Vitalin Adult Maintenance at the moment). Cereals, potatoes are there when you buy dog food. I do not want to preach here about how good it is. I just want to know if it really is so bad as I read in most discussions elsewhere. 
Other thing that is on my mind is, if I need to feed my dogs different food, because they are in different stages of their life. They are siberian huskies (11, 9, 5 years old) and innuit (5 years old).

Thank you all for ALL opinions that were posted here. I am really glad that you noticed this thread and did not pass it.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Your veterinarian may recommend a high fiber diet for your dog if he suffers from frequent bouts of constipation or has anal gland issues. High fiber diets may also help older dogs maintain their health. Let&#8217;s look at how a high fiber diet can help your dog stay healthy and how you can easily add fiber to your pet&#8217;s existing diet.
Canine Health Conditions that a High Fiber Diet Can Help

Among the conditions that a high fiber diet can help manage in your dog are

anal gland impaction
colon health
constipation
diabetes
diarrhea
weight control

Let&#8217;s look at each in more detail. Your dog&#8217;s anal glands, which are located on your dog&#8217;s rear end, can become abscessed, impacted or infected. This can cause your dog to drag or scoot his rear on the ground, or he may lick his anal glands repeatedly. Adding fiber to your dog&#8217;s diet if he has anal gland problems can help clear up the problem by causing the glands to express themselves when your dog eliminates a bulkier stool.

Next, let&#8217;s talk about your dog&#8217;s colon. Under normal conditions, your dog&#8217;s colon will change dietary fiber into fatty acids your dog&#8217;s body needs to remain healthy. These fatty acids can help your dog&#8217;s colon heal from damage, and they may also help protect your pet against colon cancer.

Now let&#8217;s consider constipation and diarrhea as they relate to your dog&#8217;s colon health. Dogs with healthy colons are less likely to experience bouts of constipation or diarrhea since they eliminate regularly. A high-fiber diet helps absorb excess liquid in the intestines, which makes diarrhea less likely, and the fiber's bulk helps a dog have regular bowel movements, which makes constipation less likely as well.

Finally, let&#8217;s consider diabetes and canine weight control. Diabetic dogs that consume a high fiber diet experience fewer episodes of fluctuating blood sugar, and dogs have a better chance of controlling their weight on a high-fiber diet since they eat less food because the high-fiber diet makes them feel fuller sooner.
How To Add Fiber to Your Dog&#8217;s Diet

If your veterinarian recommends a high-fiber diet for your dog, you can purchase a commercially prepared diet at your veterinarian&#8217;s office or pet supply store. Read the ingredients label, and be on the lookout for fiber-rich ingredients such as beet pulp, corn, oat bran, rice bran, soybean or wheat bran. Check the guaranteed analysis portion of the food label, and select foods with crude fiber contents above 4.5 percent.
You can also easily add fiber to your dog&#8217;s current diet by including certain fruits or vegetables in his food. For example,

You can give your dog sections of a peeled, cored apple.
You can offer him carrot sticks or green beans as treats.
You can add a half-teaspoon to a teaspoon of pureed pumpkin to your dog&#8217;s food each week.

All of these foods contain fiber, as do brown rice, oatmeal or bran. If your dog doesn&#8217;t enjoy vegetables or fruit, you can give him fiber-rich treats or snacks from the pet supply store. 

Whatever fiber source you choose, provide only a small amount of fiber until you know how much your dog requires. Providing too much fiber can set your dog up to bloat, or it may leave him more prone to gas and flatulence.

Read more: High Fiber Diet for Dogs - VetInfo


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

The quality of pet food ingredients can vary widely based on the food you buy. Many dogs will dictate ingredients to avoid by not tolerating them, but there are some ingredients that should always be avoided.
Wheat and Corn

Most dog food allergies are caused by grains such as wheat and corn. If that isn't enough a reason to avoid them, dogs can't digest wheat or corn. Thus, they are unnecessary ingredients which are just used as a cheap filler for dog food. No high-quality brands of food utilize wheat or corn, so these ingredients are a good indicator that the food you are buying isn't as high quality as you expected.

The first three ingredients listed on the food label make up a high percentage of the its ingredients. If wheat and corn are listed in any form in the first three ingredients, avoid this food. This means it contains very little meat, which your dog needs to be healthy.

There are many grain-free foods available, but there is debate among the pet nutrition community whether grains should be excluded completely from food. Healthy grains such as barley and oats may provide your dog with some nutrition when given in small amounts.

Meat Byproducts

There are a wide variety of protein sources available for dog food, such as beef, chicken, turkey, pork, rabbit and venison. The first three pet food ingredients should be protein or protein meal, so it's a very important part of your dog's diet. Protein is the ingredient most likely to cause allergies after wheat and corn, so your dog largely dictates which protein type you purchase. If your dog does poorly on one protein, try another.

However, any type of meat byproduct should be avoided. Meat byproducts are the parts of the protein source that have very little nutritional value and can even include the feathers, hooves and other unhealthy pieces. In addition, if the protein source is just listed as "meat," avoid this product. This means that many different protein types have been compiled to the point where they can't really be recognized. This will likely be unhealthy for your pet and should be avoided.
Dyes and Preservatives

Dogs don't distinguish the different shapes and colors of their food. The only reason food is made colorful is to appeal to humans. These ingredients can even be unhealthy to your pets.

Preservatives are put in the food to make it last longer. However, this ensures that the ingredients aren't as fresh or healthy for your dog. In addition, many of the dyes and preservatives are thought to be carcinogens to pets, increasing the likelihood they will contract some type of serious illness as they get older.

If you buy a high-quality food, you will not find any of these pet food ingredients. These foods have an expiration date and are meant to be consumed quickly when the ingredients are fresh and provide the most nutritional value. A good general rule of thumb is that if you aren't sure what an ingredient is, you shouldn't put it in your pet's body.

Read more: Pet Food Ingredients to Avoid - VetInfo


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Once again you are simply copying a single web site.

Quick example..

When it comes to animal by-products, it's not black and white. Did you know for instance that there are 3 levels of animal by-products in the UK? Only category3 can be used for petfood. To quote DEFRA:


> Category 3 materials are low risk materials. Category 3 material includes *parts of animals that have been passed fit for human consumption* in a slaughterhouse but which are not intended for consumption, either because they are not parts of animals that we normally eat (hides, hair, feathers, bones etc) or for commercial reasons.


So things like some offal often have to be treated as animal by-product. Offal or green tripe are counted as a useful or important part of a diet for raw feeders. You also have to consider what the nutritional value is compared to standard "meat" after it has been rendered. The answer is not a lot. A good read is http://www.hilarywatson.com/chicken.pdf . Whilst I feel it's important that you avoid a generic "animal by-product", something like "chicken by-product" is not necessarily to be avoided. Meat after all isn't going to be steak when in dog food despite the pictures or adverts.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Goblin, you study it all very seriously and deeply and I admire your knowledge. I do not have time for that unfortunately (full time job, house, garden, dogs, life...). So if I find something, that I reckon may be interesting for somebody else too, I post it. So simply ignore me. I do not think, that dog food should be rocket science, common sense should be enough. There are so many companies in this country producing it, that it makes decisions difficult. There are countries in Europe where there are no dog food producers at all and all dog food is imported.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Renata said:


> Goblin, you study it all very seriously and deeply and I admire your knowledge. I do not have time for that unfortunately (full time job, house, garden, dogs, life...). So if I find something, that I reckon may be interesting for somebody else too, I post it. So simply ignore me. I do not think, that dog food should be rocket science, common sense should be enough. There are so many companies in this country producing it, that it makes decisions difficult. There are countries in Europe where there are no dog food producers at all and all dog food is imported.


I'd love it to be simple. Unfortunately it isn't. I know you posted fibre helping with anal gland impaction, colon health, constipation, diabetes, diarrhea and weight control. If it was simple adding fiber would be it. It's not. Carbohydrates in food can also affect diabetes, weight control etc. There are different types of fibre as well. Some is non-fermentable and this can actually reduce the amount of nutrition extracted from food. Websites are mostly a matter of opinion. Science reports are often contradictory. It is a minefield.

Most people at the end of the day are prepared to simply take adverts at face value. The dogs seem fine and live for what is a good age. There is nothing to say feeding brand X is definitely going to improve the dogs lifespan. However what we can do is try to up the chances of that happening. To do that we need to look at the biology of the dog as the primary source. That to me indicates a meat based diet.

You are right that different countries have different rules and regulations and that is one of the problems. The internet is global. What's applicable for one country may not be applicable for another. The internet is a great research resource but it also full of incorrect details and the motives of the website in question should always be placed in question. Just look at the arguments for and against raw feeding on the web. What is the truth? All you can do is research and do what you feel is right for your dog(s) based on the information you can find.

I've been looking at dog nutrition for a couple of years and have only scratched the surface as I am still learning. Full credit for you for actually looking things up yourself. I'm actually happy to discuss things and if you come across things which counter things I say I'm only too happy if you raise it as a counter argument. However simply posting the contents of a website, at least for me, isn't an effective way to do that (besides possible copyright issues). A link to the site along with a synopsis (people are lazy), possibly a link to a counter argument would help people to make a better informed choice. Just don't expect people to simply agree with what you post 

Even I am biased based on what I feed.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

A grain of truth.....

We must remember that both dogs and cats often do ingest grains when they catch and eat live prey.

Grains in Pet Food


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Lots of info here:

http://www.hilarywatson.com/cereals.pdf

:confused1:


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Let's look at the first link.. someone trying to justify why they add grains to a pet food as shown by 


> When I developed my grain/vegetable mix


The justification..


> We must remember that both dogs and cats often do ingest grains when they catch and eat live prey. The natural source of prey for dogs and cats is generally herbivores….plant eaters. When a dog catches its prey, it will first eat the organs and then the gut content of the prey animal, which is full of semi-digested plant and grain material. This can make up almost 30% of the weight of the prey animal. After this feast, they finally eat the meat and bones. The order in which they consume the prey is a simple and clear indication that the grain / vegetable content of the diet is vital to their health. Why else would they eat it first ?


It's misinformation and a common misconception.. For small prey the stomach contents are eaten, things like squirrels etc but then it would be a bit fiddly otherwise  L. David Mech is considered one of the worlds leading wolf experts having studied them in the wild. This is what he has to say..



> Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. *The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves*, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site.





> To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, *except the plants in the digestive system*.


For a more practical example and for this I'll move away from wolves, a couple of pictures of remains of a coyote kill in the states by a forum user on another site, it happened at the end of her yard at night.. What was left (I'll link rather than display the images as some people may be squeamish):

http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/...ts-left-bones-stomach-including-contents.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/...ts-left-bones-stomach-including-contents.html

You can plainly see the stomach and contents have been left alone.

We can then look at the second article, which I admit, I've only quickly read. Couple of things stand out..


> Recipes can easily be designed to ensure that a meat heads the ingredient list.


This is only too true. Many companies do something called ingredient splitting. Ingredient Splitting -- The Pet Food Industry's Dirty Little Secret describes the practice well with a good example unlike that particular article.

The article admits, carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient for dogs and is used by pet food manufacturers to supply energy. There's a point where the author mentions fibre in oat bran reducing blood cholesterol levels in humans. Dogs do not have the human digestion system. In fact, when you look at it the author admits, health benefits in humans may not be applicable for dogs and "beta-glucans" may not be well tolerated by some dogs. So grain can provide quick energy.. a meat based diet provides energy in a form where the dog uses it as and when needed, not simply flooding the blood with glucose.

There's no mention in the article by the way that carbohydrates are required by dry food so it can be formed into shape. Something worth bearing in mind.

In general the article describes nothing, at least to me, which justifies the conclusion.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Goblin, you may be interested in this:

Robert Wayne, an evolutionary biologist who studies dogs at the University of California, Los Angeles, but was not involved with the work, is also pleased with the study. He says he gets contacted often by pet owners wondering if dogs, like wolves, should eat primarily meat. "This [study] suggests no, dogs are different from wolves and don't need a wolflike diet," he says. "They have coevolved with humans and their diet."

Diet Shaped Dog Domestication - ScienceNOW


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Already noticed it. Not been able to get a copy of the full thing unfortunately. The research shows dogs are better scavengers, able to subsist on things like grain and carbohydrates better than wolves. Different breeds may have different levels of adaptation. This doesn't mean meat is no longer relevant or that dogs don't thrive better on a meat based diet which is really the key point. The other thing to notice is rendering grain etc means it's no longer in it's natural state. In effect you are bypassing these adaptations.

What is interesting is that the research seems to have been carried out independent of any commercial pet food company. We need more of this sort of research.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Let's look at the first link.. someone trying to justify why they add grains to a pet food as shown by
> 
> The justification..
> 
> ...


When my dog has caught and eaten rabbits, the stomach contents were not eaten.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

When our dogs got a rabbit, they ate everything, I am afraid. Nothing stopped them.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Do not miss readers comments and discussion about the article.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Renata said:


> When our dogs got a rabbit, they ate everything, I am afraid. Nothing stopped them.


Same here.....


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Renata said:


> Do not miss readers comments and discussion about the article.


Unfortunately what you'll notice is the discussion simply resolves about peoples perceptions and prejudices. At some point you just have to make a decision and go with it.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I feed raw and leftovers. I'm not fanatically anti cereals but both Rupert and Spencer have done so much better on a diet that isn't grain based that I would be very reluctant to go back to feeding a grain based diet. Rupert couldn't have wheat or corn or he got chronic ear infections and became terribly itchy. He improved massively when switched to a raw diet. Spencer appears to have no real issue with grains but switching him from a commercial food to raw has had a huge difference to his behaviour, how his coat feels and how he smells anyway.

Spencer does still get some grains from time to time. I make liver cake using normal flour, he gets left over pasta, rice and potatoes. Toast crusts are a high value treat to him for some reason. But the bulk of his diet is raw meat as I don't believe cereals are necessary for a dog.


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## Sarahnya (Oct 27, 2008)

Renata said:


> Are cereals beneficial in dog diet or are they just cheap filler and source of energy? Are they there to lower the cost and bulk out the food? Are cereals of no benefit to a dog? Are cereals in dog food just cause of smelly winds, runny poos, alergies, etc.? Should we avoid dog food having cereals in it at all cost?
> 
> I asked editor of a dog food review site, if it is all right to feed a dog food comprising cereals and if all meat diet is good for dog.
> 
> ...


I eat a high fat low carb diet (under 20g carbs per day) myself and find it fantastic, loads of energy, no cravings for sugary treats anymore so I highly suspect that a all meat diet for a dog is perfect so long as they are getting all parts of the animal, i.e. tripe, offal, bone etc.

Furthermore there is no evidence to suggest that domesticated dogs have evolved to eat an omnivorous diet, just the same as we see no benefit from eating various grains.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

For some animals with medical issues that can't tolerate too much protein and have to be on a low fat diet, they have to get the calories from somewhere, so cereal and other carbs play a part.

But that's the only instance I can see that anyone would actually choose to feed them.

Oh, and they're cheaper than high quality animal protein of course.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Does anybody here have some knowledge about what dogs were fed at hard times (e. g. WW2)? There wasn't enough meat for people and there wasn't any dry dog food around, so I wonder what they fed to dogs then. Obviously dogs survived those times with no harm.

I do not think I will ever put my dogs on raw food. They have been on dry food for a long time now and they are doing fine. They have no allergies, they are healthy. Their teeth are in really good condition, even the 9 and 11 years old ones still have perfect smiles.

I do not think anybody here will change their dog's diet after reading this thread. I learnt some interesting things here and I'm curious now and I will try to learn even more.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

A dog being able to survive on something doesn't mean it's an ideal, or even good, diet for it. There are dogs surviving on vegan/vegetarian dry foods, dogs surviving on nothing but table scraps of junk food, dogs surviving on whatever they can scavenge.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Renata said:


> Does anybody here have some knowledge about what dogs were fed at hard times (e. g. WW2)?


Quick google:

WWII

The Ultimate Pit Bull Forum • View topic - Feeding Dogs In WWII - REALLY interesting!

Dogs in the US obviously weren't as badly affected as those in the UK and even Germany later in the war. Dogs were still loved though as can be seen by ******, a black labrador from the dambusters raid. In the UK it was illegal to feed human food to animals, in fact in 1943 Miss Mary Bridget O'Sullivan was fined a total of ten pounds, with costs, for feeding birds bread. Metal cans were also in short supply which meant tinned pet food wasn't possible. As far as I can tell dogs were fed table scraps and what could be found/caught and not used for humans (far more was used than now). Cats obviously could hunt their own food. Judging from in-laws from that time, there wouldn't be that much in the way of table scraps.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

All I know for definite is that Teddy absolutely loves his raw food. He's had the Gold Standard in commercial food (Lily's!) yet he never went crazy for it like he does his raw chicken.......


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Renata said:


> *Does anybody here have some knowledge about what dogs were fed at hard times (e. g. WW2)? There wasn't enough meat for people and there wasn't any dry dog food around, so I wonder what they fed to dogs then. Obviously dogs survived those times with no harm.*
> 
> I do not think I will ever put my dogs on raw food. They have been on dry food for a long time now and they are doing fine. They have no allergies, they are healthy. Their teeth are in really good condition, even the 9 and 11 years old ones still have perfect smiles.
> 
> I do not think anybody here will change their dog's diet after reading this thread. I learnt some interesting things here and I'm curious now and I will try to learn even more.


I have to agree... 
I have considered a raw diet, but it just seems to complicated! I do give raw 'wreck' bones though, and Pippa has lovely white teeth.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Renata said:


> Does anybody here have some knowledge about what dogs were fed at hard times (e. g. WW2)? There wasn't enough meat for people and there wasn't any dry dog food around, so I wonder what they fed to dogs then. Obviously dogs survived those times with no harm.
> 
> I do not think I will ever put my dogs on raw food. They have been on dry food for a long time now and they are doing fine. They have no allergies, they are healthy. Their teeth are in really good condition, even the 9 and 11 years old ones still have perfect smiles.
> 
> I do not think anybody here will change their dog's diet after reading this thread. I learnt some interesting things here and I'm curious now and I will try to learn even more.


It seems commercial dog food has been manufactured and fed to dogs for a very long time: Kibble Me This: The History of Dog Food - Neatorama


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Partially raw here, uncooked Lamb mince plus veg for breakfast and cooked chicken/tripe/beef + rice + veg for supper. Also a bonio for afternoon and bed time snack. Feed the latter coz Tia - lurcher had anal gland impaction and abscess and vet said it would be a good source of fiber for her and they are low in fat - he said not to fiddle about with her diet, just add a Bonio biscuit. Seems to have worked up to press.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> It seems commercial dog food has been manufactured and fed to dogs for a very long time: Kibble Me This: The History of Dog Food - Neatorama


What was in it though - mainly cereal I think... I read this the other day, wasn't it a shepherd who first made kibble from cereal?


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> It seems commercial dog food has been manufactured and fed to dogs for a very long time: Kibble Me This: The History of Dog Food - Neatorama


I loved the reading! Thanks for that.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

dandogman said:


> What was in it though - mainly cereal I think... I read this the other day, wasn't it a shepherd who first made kibble from cereal?


No it was this fella: In the late 1850s, a young electrician from Cincinnati named James Spratt went to London to sell lightning rods. When his ship arrived, crew members threw the leftover "ship's biscuits" onto the dock, where they were devoured by hordes of waiting dogs. That gave Spratt an idea. "Ship's biscuits," or hard tack, were the standard fare for sailors for centuries. Flour, water, and salt were mixed into a stiff dough, baked, and left to harden and dry. The biscuits were easily stored and had an extremely long shelf life, which was important in the days before refrigeration. And they looked a lot like today's dog biscuits.

Spratt had the idea that he could make cheap, easy-to-serve biscuits and then sell them to the growing number of urban dog owners. His recipe: a baked mixture of wheat, beet root, and vegetables bound together with beef blood. When Spratt's Patent Meal Fibrine Dog Cakes came on the market in 1860, the pet food industry was born. Spratt's Dog Cakes were a hit in England, so in 1870 he took the business to New York …and began the American pet food industry. Exert taken from "Kibble me this - the history of dog food - Neatorama.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

The Truth About Corn in Dog Food by Mike Sagman.

The Truth About Corn in Dog Food

Contrasting Grain-based and Meat-based Diets for Dogs.

Contrasting Grain-based and Meat-based Diets for Dogs | petMD

http://www.askavetquestion.com/answer_np.php?id=1021-corn-in-dog-food


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Frequently Asked Questions about General Pet Nutrition

What is the best food to feed my pet?
How can I pick a good diet to feed to my pet?
Is the ingredient list a good way to determine the quality of a pet food?
I've heard that raw diets prevent and/or solve a lot of health problems in pets. Is this true?
My friend says that grains are bad for dogs, is she correct?
I read online that by-products can contain hair, hooves and floor sweepings, is this true?
What is the best diet for a growing puppy or kitten?

Frequently Asked Questions about General Pet Nutrition - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Nutrition for the Adult Dog.

http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/vth/sa/clin/cp_handouts/Nutrition_Adult_Dog.pdf


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Corn In Food....No, It's Not Bad

Another interesting article for those who are interested....

A Vet's Guide To Life: Corn In Food....No, It's Not Bad


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## sallygunes (Aug 5, 2011)

Renata said:


> Does anybody here have some knowledge about what dogs were fed at hard times (e. g. WW2)? There wasn't enough meat for people and there wasn't any dry dog food around, so I wonder what they fed to dogs then. Obviously dogs survived those times with no harm.
> 
> I do not think I will ever put my dogs on raw food. They have been on dry food for a long time now and they are doing fine. They have no allergies, they are healthy. Their teeth are in really good condition, even the 9 and 11 years old ones still have perfect smiles.
> 
> I do not think anybody here will change their dog's diet after reading this thread. I learnt some interesting things here and I'm curious now and I will try to learn even more.


although you have made some good points there is a big difference on what a dog can survive on and what is good for your dog ! Im sure we could survive on eating rats and insects if we had to or a diet of paper mulch if there was nothing else available but that doesn't mean its good for us . You are quite right about WW2 but you are talking about desperate times where hard living was the order of the day and making do was necessary .Thats not the case today when so much good quality high protein food is available for your dog


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

Hmmm... the amount of corn in some dog foods is not bad but the amount in some foods is so bad you may as well be feeding your dog on cornflakes in my opinion hahah 

Meat should be first on all accounts :yesnod:


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## soulful dog (Nov 6, 2011)

When there is more corn, barley, oats, rice, potato etc in a food than anything else, then it is completely disingenuous to say they are not fillers. 

Apparent facts, opinions of vets and other pet specialists.... they differ, and besides, people are very adept at making the 'facts' suit their own point of view. 

Common sense however, should tell you that for the vast majority of commercial pet foods available, the amount of these 'filler' ingredients compared to the amount of meat isn't exactly ideal.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

I do not want to sound like somebody singing praises about cereal based dog food, because that is not what dogs should be fed.
But there are many people saying, that cereals are just empty fillers of no nutritional value and they usually do not provide any evidence or further explanation for saying that. So I would like to see it all from another point of view. Especially as I am feeding four dogs and they are all "adults" or "oldies" now and their diet is important (well, it is important at any stage of dog's life). I am still not going to eliminate grains from their diet or switch to raw feeding.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Renata said:


> I am still not going to eliminate grains from their diet or switch to raw feeding.


I think we probably all realise that by now.......

When vets push and sell some absolutely awful (in my firm opinion) foods such as Hills and Royal Canin I'm afraid I lose all respect for their opinion. Their views are hardly unbiased are they?! 

If they said 'corn and grains shouldn't be in dog food' it would hurt them financially as that's what they sell!

May I ask why you are on a quest to prove grains are good? If you think it's ok to feed food full of grains go ahead and do so. But please stop trying to convince the rest of us. I feed my mice and hamsters grain based food and feed my dogs meat! Appropriate food for the appropriate species.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Renata said:


> nutritional value and they usually do not provide any evidence or further explanation for saying that.


Where's the evidence that grain is essential or more beneficial? I've personally seen scientific articles/reports which try to justify it's usage. Haven't seen any which explains why it needs to be used or the advantages which are not supplied by feeding a species appropriate diet, in other words, primarily meat.

Let's throw something out there, not researched, just an idea which popped into my head a couple of days ago..

Let's look at http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport1997_vol0.pdf as it's from a well known commercial company. I'll pull one part out..


> Protein turnover provides the amino acids essential to support cells of the immune system, including lymphocytes, and those involved in tissue repair. Protein turnover also provides amino acids for hepatic gluconeogenesis in order to supply glucose as an obligatory energy substrate required for cells involved in repair and the immune system, and it provides branched chain amino acids that will be oxidized in muscle to serve as an additional energy source for this tissue. Thus, a diminished rate of muscle protein turnover might blunt these functions and compromise the host's capacity to successfully resist a stressful stimulus.


You may well ask what's level of protein got to do with grain. Grain = as it's so processed, easily digested is converted into blood glucose. Blood glucose is what is being talked about for repair cells etc.

Let's look closer.. It talks about "hepatic gluconeogenesis". What is gluconeogenesis? It actually matches the theme of protein as it's the ability to make glucose, from non-carbohydrate sources but it's often not discussed by those pushing for cereal use. It's been shown that both sled dogs and greyhounds can do it sufficiently well to cope with burst and endurance situations. People could argue that grain -> high blood glucose makes the need redundant, it's providing the "end product" or glucose which is what is needed.

Well what happens with insulin levels for example when dogs eat something which floods the blood with glucose. The answer is simple.. an insulin spike for up to 2 hours after the meal. So for 2 hours the cereal does it's job, providing energy for cell repair etc before the "dog" controls the level. Then what? answer is simple.. gluconeogenesis from the protein stored in the muscles to maintain blood glucose levels as required. However you've diminished this species appropriate protein level replacing it with the cereal. Haven't you therefore potentially compromised the host's capacity to successfully resist a stressful stimulus?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Renata said:


> The following list is what veterinary nutritional specialists feed their own pets.


Funny that.. Most I know advise against them.



> However, they have never been a part of the official curriculum at schools.


Official no, doesn't have to be... supply the material, channel the educational thinking in certain directions, make sure only reports backing your view is on the reading material list... Make sure the powers that be realize funding will be cut down if they don't tow the line.. Of course it doesn't happen... the AAFCO standard wasn't sponsored by Hills etc 

Just like the NRA didn't stop the CDC from researching the issue of guns officially..
CDC Ban on Gun Research Caused Lasting Damage - ABC News officially.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

I just skimmed through this thread. I have pretty much no nutritional knowledge at the moment aside from dogs should eat food . I think it should be predominantly meat but aside from that I say each to their own. Since I haven't got the knowledge yet though I'm totally open to everything really. I don't trust a lot of articles, I'd be more supportive if there were proper long-term test groups conducted done by an unbiased party. All I'm aware of that could relate is that dogs (and cats) still have a layer in their stomach which is predominantly thick connective tissue seen in carnivores to protect their stomach from objects like bones. 
My dogs are on this food from the vets, can't be sure of the brand as they sell it out of the brand packaging, and sometimes Wagg (please someone tell me if these foods aren't good for them!). They do well on it, Roxy has had no health issues, George has some but he is almost 13 now so it's expected, and I don't think food is linked to epilepsy or arthritis. They have really good teeth as well, even George!
I've been interested in raw feeding but I think my dogs are too used to their current food to switch, also George is very old now I don't think he'd take to it. But in future I'd like to see where it goes, it seems to be more popular and as far as I'm aware I haven't heard any negative effects to it.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

TashaMarie said:


> , and sometimes Wagg (please someone tell me if these foods aren't good for them!).


Ok, you did ask...

Wagg is absolutely dreadful - probably the worst. I lost a boy to stomach cancer last year - top oncologists confirm as a direct result of poor nutrition and the cariogens some foods contain. Dylan was fed Wagg for five years before coming to me.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

SixStar said:


> Ok, you did ask...
> 
> Wagg is absolutely dreadful - probably the worst. I lost a boy to stomach cancer last year - top oncologists confirm as a direct result of poor nutrition and the cariogens some foods contain. Dylan was fed Wagg for five years before coming to me.


Oh my gosh!  I'll be throwing the Wagg out the window! That is terrible, I'm sorry about Dylan  thank you so much for letting me know so I can hopefully prevent anything happening to my two.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

SixStar said:


> Ok, you did ask...
> 
> Wagg is absolutely dreadful - probably the worst. I lost a boy to stomach cancer last year - top oncologists confirm as a direct result of poor nutrition and the cariogens some foods contain. Dylan was fed Wagg for five years before coming to me.


I worked with somebody (he retired now), who was always feeding his dog on Wagg. The dog was 13 years old at that time and was doing well. I never had the heart to tell him, he was feeding his dog sh*t food. I just recommended to add some sardines. How do you know, that your dogs problems were direct result of Wagg food? I (and my dogs of course) have no experience with Wagg but I would be very careful to say something like that.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Tiatortilla:

And you are in the minority of people who have actually looked into it that believe grains are good for dogs. I just wondered why you seem so set on changing the opinions of people who have made up their own minds, as you have.

Why do you think, that I am set on changing the opinions of people?
People will always feed their dogs what they think is best for them. I do not mind to be in the minority but I will never follow something that I do not trust. If you are happy with what you feed your dogs and you are sure you do it right, why do you even bother to follow this thread? I believe I am entitled to do what I think is right and there should be space for all diferent views and opinions.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Renata said:


> Tiatortilla:
> 
> And you are in the minority of people who have actually looked into it that believe grains are good for dogs. I just wondered why you seem so set on changing the opinions of people who have made up their own minds, as you have.
> 
> ...


Because whenever someone knowledgeable about nutrition like SixStar or Goblin posts something to offer advice to someone, you respond to try and discredit the advice they've given and I find that quite strange if you're not doing it to try and change people's opinions to your way of thinking. Why else would somebody do that? Of course there is space for different opinions but your opinions don't seem to be based on proper facts, whereas the advice given by other members is so people are more likely to listen to them.
I don't know why I'm bothering to follow this thread. I'll stop now!


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

TashaMarie said:


> I just skimmed through this thread. I have pretty much no nutritional knowledge at the moment aside from dogs should eat food . I think it should be predominantly meat but aside from that I say each to their own. Since I haven't got the knowledge yet though I'm totally open to everything really. I don't trust a lot of articles, I'd be more supportive if there were proper long-term test groups conducted done by an unbiased party. All I'm aware of that could relate is that dogs (and cats) still have a layer in their stomach which is predominantly thick connective tissue seen in carnivores to protect their stomach from objects like bones.
> My dogs are on this food from the vets, can't be sure of the brand as they sell it out of the brand packaging, and sometimes Wagg (please someone tell me if these foods aren't good for them!). They do well on it, Roxy has had no health issues, George has some but he is almost 13 now so it's expected, and I don't think food is linked to epilepsy or arthritis. They have really good teeth as well, even George!
> I've been interested in raw feeding but I think my dogs are too used to their current food to switch, also George is very old now I don't think he'd take to it. But in future I'd like to see where it goes, it seems to be more popular and as far as I'm aware I haven't heard any negative effects to it.


The vet food will be either Royal Canin or Hills Science Plan. Royal Canin is the best out of the two but for the price neither are excellent x


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Renata said:


> I worked with somebody (he retired now), who was always feeding his dog on Wagg. The dog was 13 years old at that time and was doing well. I never had the heart to tell him, he was feeding his dog sh*t food. I just recommended to add some sardines. How do you know, that your dogs problems were direct result of Wagg food? I (and my dogs of course) have no experience with Wagg but I would be very careful to say something like that.


Did I say it was because of Wagg? No. I said stomach cancer is a directly related to poor nutrition and cariogenic food additives (as one of the top veterinary oncologists in the country told me), and that the food Dylan was fed for a long time was Wagg.

But anyway - I've got no time for you whatsoever, so have no desire to get into any further discussion about it.



Indiandpuppy said:


> The vet food will be either Royal Canin or Hills Science Plan. Royal Canin is the best out of the two but for the price neither are excellent x


How did you come to that conclusion?


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

SixStar said:


> As I said, the top veterinary oncologist in the country said so. Of course, we will never know for sure what the exact reason or cause, if any, was - but stomach cancer is directly resulted to nutrition, and that is a fact, not opinion.
> 
> But anyway - I've got no time for you whatsoever, so have no desire to get into any further discussion about it.
> 
> How did you come to that conclusion?


I was told RC had rice and HSP had maize but now i see they both have maize so HSP is probably better due to a higher meat content? x


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Indiandpuppy said:


> I was told RC had rice and HSP had maize but now i see they both have maize so HSP is probably better due to a higher meat content? x


Both have rice, wheat and maize - but as far as I can remember, Royal Canin do not declare meat content or sources - whereas Hills does. Don't get me wrong - both are poor foods, but if splitting hairs, I'd definitely opt for Hills over RC.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

SixStar said:


> Both have rice, wheat and maize - but as far as I can remember, Royal Canin do not declare meat content or sources - whereas Hills does. Don't get me wrong - both are poor foods, but if splitting hairs, I'd definitely opt for Hills over RC.


I know most people on here would cringe feeding either- me included


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

Indiandpuppy said:


> The vet food will be either Royal Canin or Hills Science Plan. Royal Canin is the best out of the two but for the price neither are excellent x


Hills Science Plan rings a bell, my mums taking the cats in for a check up soon I've asked her to talk to vet about the dogs food. 
Is there any dry food that is recommended or at least better than most?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

TashaMarie said:


> Hills Science Plan rings a bell, my mums taking the cats in for a check up soon I've asked her to talk to vet about the dogs food.
> Is there any dry food that is recommended or at least better than most?


Have a look through here  - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index.html


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## sallygunes (Aug 5, 2011)

Renata said:


> Goblin,
> you feed raw and all you do here is - you justify feeding raw.
> If it was as you say - companies producing dry dog food would close down, sell their equipment by now and they would rear cows, sheep, chickens, ducks, etc. and sell mince meat and bones instead of dry dog food. Somehow it does not happen.
> I am going to feed my dogs in next weeks dry dog food based on beef, wheat, maize (it will be one of Alpha dry dog feeds) and it will not be hypoallergenic food. I want to see any difference in my dogs and I am sure, there will not be any.


why would you use your dog to prove a point when its not necessary everyone knows dogs are carnivores so 99 percent of the time would benefit from a high protein meat based diet which in my opinion should be either raw or a good quality grain free wet or dry depending on ur budget and if u cant afford the grain free primo food then check the list and find a good middle of the road with potatoes or rice used as fillers


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## sallygunes (Aug 5, 2011)

Renata said:


> The Best Pet Foods.
> 
> A Vet's Guide To Life: The Best Pet Foods


most of the foods mentioned here my vet told me to stay clear of saying I would be as well off with a supermarket own brand as anyof the ones on this link and told me I was doing a great thing feeding my dog RAW as all his dogs and cats are RAW fed


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## sallygunes (Aug 5, 2011)

TashaMarie said:


> Hills Science Plan rings a bell, my mums taking the cats in for a check up soon I've asked her to talk to vet about the dogs food.
> Is there any dry food that is recommended or at least better than most?


my dog has been raw fed since he was a pup but ive got him on wet and dry at the moment due to convenience for when my friend feeds and ive had great results from fishmongers salmon and potatoe which is of hi protein content no grains and good for sensitive tums and £30 for 10kg and you will prob have to feed less than the vet food also using canagan but only been using for a few days so will tell you what i think


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I hope this thread never gets closed, its far too amusing


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

> You are basically saying that decades of research that have been poured over by hundreds of specialists and scientists, and have resulted in thousands of pages of well-documented research is really just us being brainwashed by evil food companies who don't have a pet's best interest at heart and are merely trying to make money by deception and fraud.


For cats I know but how often are reports like Epidemiologic study of relationships between consumption of commercial canned food and risk of hyperthyroidism in cats highlighted by vets I wonder?

Supporting cereal/high carbs what about... http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2087S.full.pdf#page=1&view=FitH



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I hope this thread never gets closed, its far too amusing


Well I'm going to stop now..


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I lied.. one more quick post



TashaMarie said:


> I've been interested in raw feeding but I think my dogs are too used to their current food to switch, also George is very old now I don't think he'd take to it. But in future I'd like to see where it goes, it seems to be more popular and as far as I'm aware I haven't heard any negative effects to it.


Be aware of the risks. They do exist. Bones can cause blockages, possibly internal bleeding. Dogs can choke. Salmonella etc is also a risk as you are handling raw meat... BUT put these risks in perspective, not simply accept the scare stories. I've had a dog with blockages caused by swallowing socks and underpants, I've had another dog choke on kibble. I prepare raw meat for myself so use normal hygiene precautions etc. For me personally, the benefits outweigh the risks. Others may prefer to use commercial which is fine. Surely though rather than take marketing as the truth, it's necessary to actually look at the facts, starting with the physical biology of a dog and make decisions based on the ingredients. These ingredients are all we are given to try and make an informed choice after all. Comes down to marketing vs ingredient list. I know which I would always choose.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

TashaMarie said:


> Hills Science Plan rings a bell, my mums taking the cats in for a check up soon I've asked her to talk to vet about the dogs food.
> Is there any dry food that is recommended or at least better than most?


Skinners duck and rice, Simpsons 80/20, Fishmongers, Wainwrights, Burns, CSJ grain free, Barking Heads, fish4dogs and Lilys kitchen are all quite good.
With the best value being Skinners then Wainwrights. :thumbsup:

and If you have more money then Applaws, Orijen, Acana and Purizon are extremely good quality IMO.

x


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

SixStar said:


> Did I say it was because of Wagg? No. I said stomach cancer is a directly related to poor nutrition and cariogenic food additives (as one of the top veterinary oncologists in the country told me), and that the food Dylan was fed for a long time was Wagg.
> 
> But anyway - I've got no time for you whatsoever, so have no desire to get into any further discussion about it.
> 
> How did you come to that conclusion?


***But anyway - I've got no time for you whatsoever, so have no desire to get into any further discussion about it. ***

I have the same feeling about you. But it is difficult not to bump into you on this forum. And I am doing my best to avoid you. Believe me.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Some "good night" reading about grain.

Does Grain Free Pet Food Really Solve Health Issues?

Does "Grain Free" Pet Food Really Solve Health Issues? | Tracie Hotchner Blog


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Can't resist... from the same blogger:

The 3 Major No-No's In A Dog Food | Tracie Hotchner Blog

Lower Your Dog's "Carbo Paw Print" | Tracie Hotchner Blog

So lowering carbs is a good idea.. wait, what are things like cereal? ..

Lets look at Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Rice, brown, medium-grain, cooked for cooked brown rice.. 87% carbs..

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Potatoes, boiled, cooked in skin, skin, without salt Cooked potato 89% carbs..

How about cooked sweet potato which the author states is better.... Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Sweet potato, cooked, baked in skin, without salt [Sweetpotato] 93% carbs

So we start to look at the Glycemic Index (GI) of food, the reason sweet potato was mentioned. That's not simple as processing changes that as well. The Glycemic Index of Foods - American Diabetes Association may be of interest as a rough idea. However once again balance comes into play. Ideally you want things providing at least some nutrition, vitamins etc with a low GI. Meat does not have a GI value by the way  Unfortunately things like sweet potato isn't as cheap as things like corn.

From the blog:


> Feeding a "grain free" kibble does not solve the problem because all kibble is carb-heavy by its very nature. All kibble has to begin as a dough of some kind, before it can become the kibbled shape.


Yep however you can pick a food with a lower carbohydrate content. The higher protein, fat, and ash levels there is, the lower the carbohydrate level. Moisture/water content also comes into play but that's not listed on the UK Royal Canin site or the Arden Grange site I looked at earlier. Interestingly it is listed on food websites such as Millie's Wolfheart or Eden.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Secret #2: Whats the deal with wheat?

A lot of dog foods advertise wheat-free as the new, big thing. Does this mean that dogs should not be eating wheat? There is no reason why a healthy dog without a wheat allergy or intolerance should not eat wheat. Wheat is commonly used in dog food because it is readily available and it provides a great source of energy and a good source of protein when blended with an animal protein such as chicken.

Food allergies are caused by a reaction to a protein, and since wheat contains protein, dogs can develop an allergy to it. However, because wheat is present in so many foods, dogs that are prone to developing allergies are very likely to develop an allergy to wheat. A dog can just as easily develop an allergy to buffalo if they are on a buffalo-based diet when they start to develop the allergy. Bottom line: if your dog doesnt already have an allergy to wheat, there is no need to worry about buying a wheat-free food. However, if your dog is prone to developing allergies or her parents have allergies to wheat, it may be safer to avoid it.

- See more at: Modern Dog magazine | the best dog magazine ever


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

:lol: :lol: you're nothing if not persistent!


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Renata said:


> Secret #2: Whats the deal with wheat?
> 
> A lot of dog foods advertise wheat-free as the new, big thing. Does this mean that dogs should not be eating wheat? There is no reason why a healthy dog without a wheat allergy or intolerance should not eat wheat. Wheat is commonly used in dog food because it is readily available and it provides a great source of energy and a good source of protein when blended with an animal protein such as chicken.
> 
> ...


But why is wheat present in dog food in the first place? Wheat has no real place in a dogs diet. The only reason it is present in dog food is because its a cheap filler. There's no other logic behind it IMHO.

I'd rather spend a bit more on a wheat/grain free brand (or less on raw) and get value for money. Wheat + dogs just seems an odd match to me. If you want to feed wheat, grains or loaves of bread to your dog that's fine but I personally would think they'd do much better on what they are designed to eat.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I know the magazine itself has been criticized in the past for the number of adverts. I wonder how many of these are from wheat based pet food companies. If that were the case it would hardly seem advantageous to display reports about why wheat shouldn't be in food would it?

I notice no actual benefits of wheat are actually listed. Why is it more beneficial than other ingredients?



> Wheat is commonly used in dog food because it is readily available


Yep that sums it up, cheap. Sugar could also be used "as a source of energy".

Let's look at the Animal Medical Center of Southern California : Article - News And Press - Animal Medical Center - Los Angeles, California

Whilst I disagree on the wolf going for stomach contents, as this is opposite to wolf observations, the misconception isn't surprising. We are looking at people looking at dogs, not wolf behavior. If wolves do not look to stomach content it pushes the argument even more against grains, cereals and plant matter in general in dog food.

Another interesting subject not previously mentioned as I do not think it has been looked at in detail is the effect of Wheat Germ Agglutinin (WGA).


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Goldstar said:


> But why is wheat present in dog food in the first place? Wheat has no real place in a dogs diet. The only reason it is present in dog food is because its a cheap filler. There's no other logic behind it IMHO.
> 
> I'd rather spend a bit more on a wheat/grain free brand (or less on raw) and get value for money. Wheat + dogs just seems an odd match to me. If you want to feed wheat, grains or loaves of bread to your dog that's fine but I personally would think they'd do much better on what they are designed to eat.


***There is no reason why a healthy dog without wheat allergy or intolerance should not eat wheat.***

My dogs (siberian huskies, innuit) have no wheat allergy, they do well on food with wheat or maize in it. I do not feed my dogs loaves of bread. I simply do not understand the wheat and maize hysteria here.

Crunchy - Skinners Dog Food


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Renata said:


> I simply do not understand the wheat and maize hysteria here.


There's no hysteria.. simply put there are better ingredients out there. Wheat and Maize cause problems for some dogs and may have negative side effects in the long term for others, some of which may never be noticed. They don't have any real unique benefits so why not pick a food with better ingredients?


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Renata said:


> ***There is no reason why a healthy dog without wheat allergy or intolerance should not eat wheat.***
> 
> My dogs (siberian huskies, innuit) have no wheat allergy, they do well on food with wheat or maize in it. I do not feed my dogs loaves of bread. I simply do not understand the wheat and maize hysteria here.
> 
> Crunchy - Skinners Dog Food


There's probably loads of other foods dogs could eat that they don't have an intolerance to though. That doesn't mean it is beneficial for them. As Goblin said, it could cause problems that aren't ever visible.

I'm not having some crazy hysteria over wheat, I couldn't care less if people choose to feed it but it offers very little nutrition wise so I don't see the point in feeding it. Why waste money? 

The only reason I *personally* believe its added to some kibbles is because its cheap and to me that says it all.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Goblin said:


> There's no hysteria.. simply put there are better ingredients out there. Wheat and Maize cause problems for some dogs and may have negative side effects in the long term for others, some of which may never be noticed. They don't have any real unique benefits so why not pick a food with better ingredients?


Honestly. How many dogs with problems caused by wheat/maize do you know?
I do not know any at all.

***A good example is a dog with a skin problem. Food allergy is a very common component of itchy skin in dogs. Chicken, beef, lamb, corn, soy, wheat, egg, and dairy products are common ingredients which induce these allergies, but, whether they are raw or cooked, the immune system looks at them the same. The key to choosing a food for skin problems is to pick one that does not include any of these ingredients, is preserved with vitamins, and preferably is supplemented with fatty acids (fish oils).***

Read more: http://www.cesarsway.com/dog-care/dog-nutrition/choosing-the-right-dog-food#ixzz2YmV2Z3Fy

List of feeds causing allergies is quite long. Wheat/maize are always the first ones blamed.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I know at least 6 dogs whose health improved by going away from grain based foods including one of our own. Emma was having problems being allergic to grass.. removed wheat.. no more allergy problems. You note I'm not saying allergic to the wheat itself. When you look at it, vets wouldn't generally look at wheat being the problem... it was after all grass BUT there is more to health than direct cause and effect.



> Chicken, beef, lamb, corn, soy, wheat, egg, and dairy products are common ingredients which induce these allergies, but, whether they are raw or cooked, the immune system looks at them the same.


Not true. Many dogs which suffer from an intolerance to a cooked protein find no problem when eating the raw version.

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/cooking.pdf may be of interest.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

Renata said:


> Honestly. How many dogs with problems caused by wheat/maize do you know?
> I do not know any at all.
> 
> ***A good example is a dog with a skin problem. Food allergy is a very common component of itchy skin in dogs. Chicken, beef, lamb, corn, soy, wheat, egg, and dairy products are common ingredients which induce these allergies, but, whether they are raw or cooked, the immune system looks at them the same. The key to choosing a food for skin problems is to pick one that does not include any of these ingredients, is preserved with vitamins, and preferably is supplemented with fatty acids (fish oils).***
> ...


so your a cesar milan fan ? :hand:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Renata said:


> Honestly. How many dogs with problems caused by wheat/maize do you know?
> I do not know any at all.
> .


Having worked at a dermatological referral centre, i can tell you A LOT of dogs test positive for grain allergies, wheat certainly being the most common. And that was only in the ones whose owners were prepared to pay for the tests, rather than just bunging their dog on steroids.


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## EAD (May 10, 2013)

Five dogs here in total.

Two westies belonging to my housemate are fed Happydog dry kibble, I think maize is the first ingredient.

My westie and scottie have been fed raw since start of May and doing great.

My rottie x is fed Royal Canin sensitivity but atm I am very slowly introducing Fishmongers Fish & potato. I did try her on raw when i changed others over but she had trouble with vomiting etc so kept her on RC as her tum seemed a bit more settled but don't want to feed that indefinitely.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Sorry about this. I found another (IMO) interesting article.

Can Dogs Process Grains?

| GREATDANELADY.COM


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

So she's quoted from someone who uses human nutrition to demonstrate the point of needing carbohydrates and glucose. Then you find the person quoted in question uses grain for their own pet food brand which they are trying to advertise.


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