# genetic question re cp + whites



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I should really know this answer but truth is i dont..so what is the outcome of bi pt to bi pt mating?


I know if it was 2 standard bi colours(not carring cp) you would get bi colours and vans,so how does it work with bi pt to bi pt..would you get all bi pts?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> I know if it was 2 standard bi colours(not carring cp) you would get bi colours and vans,so how does it work with bi pt to bi pt..would you get all bi pts?


Yes, exactly the same. They will all be bi-points/cp-vans.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Whats the different between a Bi cp & white and the Van pattern ... Is it colour on the legs. Pics would be helpful lol


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> Yes, exactly the same. They will all be bi-points/cp-vans.


Thanx MM,was going to say bi pt vans aswel,but never actually heard of one.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Whats the different between a Bi cp & white and the Van pattern ... Is it colour on the legs. Pics would be helpful lol


At a guess ..white in the coloured points,making the tail,legs,mask in patches but lets see what others say.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Van pattern is as the Turkish Van - a white cat with colour on the head, a white blaze on the face and coloured tail only (though there may be some spots of colour on the back).


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> Yes, exactly the same. They will all be bi-points/cp-vans.





MerlinsMum said:


> Van pattern is as the Turkish Van - a white cat with colour on the head, a white blaze on the face and coloured tail only (though there may be some spots of colour on the back).


Yeah MM i get that,what im wondering is what a cp van will look like pattern wise,as a typical bi point looks like a standard van with the exception of the blue eyes ie colour on tail and head. So what would a cp van be?

Im assuming that your 1st reply meant you get bi points AND cp vans as in they are two different patterns


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Assuming neither parent is homozygous for white spotting you will get Bi-Colourpoints with varying degrees of white and normal CPs also.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Soupie said:


> Assuming neither parent is homozygous for white spotting you will get Bi-Colourpoints with varying degrees of white and normal CPs also.


Thanx for that soupie so for example one with ALOT of white is still called a bi point?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

What does the breed standard say? Some specify how much white there should be. You also need to find the relevent breed numbers which of course are all changing to the EMS ones later this year...


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

AFAIK high white bi-cps are just mismarked Bi-cps. I don't believe there is a standard for 'van-pattern' bi-cps.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> What does the breed standard say? Some specify how much white there should be. You also need to find the relevent breed numbers which of course are all changing to the EMS ones later this year...


Bit off topic , sorry Sara

I have been looking at these EMS code and just a tad confused ... I cannot see any code for colourpointed cats and as my british are all colourpoints and thier offspring will be .. What codes do you use ??


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> What does the breed standard say? Some specify how much white there should be. You also need to find the relevent breed numbers *which of course are all changing to the EMS ones later this year...*


*
*
hope thats not going to be confusing.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Soupie said:


> AFAIK high white bi-cps are just mismarked Bi-cps. I don't believe there is a standard for 'van-pattern' bi-cps.


Im with ya thanx for that.

So cause im curious now how is it that 2 bi pts can make a cp when they both have the white spotting gene?

Cosmill its fine fire away.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The are British Shorthair so you start with BSH.

Say for example it's a seal, add 'n' for the colour code.

It's pointed (Himalayan) in a breed that isn't always pointed (on the right) - add 33.

And it's a bicolour so add 03.

I make that: BSH n 33 03

https://www.google.com/search?q=gccf+ems+codes


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> The are British Shorthair so you start with BSH.
> 
> Say for example it's a seal, add 'n' for the colour code.
> 
> ...


Gosh why do they have to mess about with things :confused1:


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You can print everything to work out the breed number of any pedigree cat in the new system on a single side of A4. Do you have any idea how thick the existing booklet is? You should know how irrational some of the breed numbering is, since the BSH is a prime example!

Oh - and I should have put BRI, not BSH. :blush:

There is one tiny fly in the ointment - fixing my pedigree templates in Breeders Assistant to put the new codes in.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> You can print everything to work out the breed number of any pedigree cat in the new system on a single side of A4. Do you have any idea how thick the existing booklet is? You should know how irrational some of the breed numbering is, since the BSH is a prime example!
> 
> Oh - and I should have put BRI, not BSH. :blush:
> 
> There is one tiny fly in the ointment - fixing my pedigree templates in Breeders Assistant to put the new codes in.


hmm yes,i too have BA and we both know you are much on computer savvy than i, wouldnt even know how to change that.

Does BRI stand for british?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Just checked out the new coding,how do you know what order to put the code numbers in?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The GCCF reference is laid out in the right order. Breed code, colour, pattern(s) - so I suspect I got the white & the bicolour the wrong way round. But if you are unsure when you are registering a kitten check with the GCCF. My life will be simple - OSH plus the colour and that's it.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> The are British Shorthair so you start with BSH.
> 
> Say for example it's a seal, add 'n' for the colour code.
> 
> ...


OS is it not actually BRI n1 03 ...british seal bi colour?

There is a note after the colour it says for black say seal then shows a one(n1).So wondering if you dont need to add the himalayan 33 part in as your stating its seal n1 which is obviously a pointed cat to be classed as seal?

I am probably wrong mind.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> OS is it not actually BRI n1 03 ...british seal bi colour?
> 
> There is a note after the colour it says for black say seal then shows a one(n1).So wondering if you dont need to add the himalayan 33 part in as your stating its seal n1 which is obviously a pointed cat to be classed as seal?
> 
> I am probably wrong mind.


The '1' refers to the note below, that Black has different names in some breeds, for example Seal if the cat is pointed.... So you need not only the 03, but the 33 to distinguish it from a black bicolour.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> The '1' refers to the note below, that Black has different names in some breeds, for example Seal if the cat is pointed.... So you need not only the 03, but the 33 to distinguish it from a black bicolour.


I see OS..while your here OS look at this ad,the kittens look like a lilac an black smoke to me what do you think Stunning British Shorthair Girls | Grantham, Lincolnshire | Pets4Homes


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Had a look at one of the breeder's other ads and she is clearly in a tizzy about colour genetics... I wouldn't like to say what colour they are without knowing for sure the genotype of the parents, except they are not blue or black!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Had a look at one of the breeder's other ads and she is clearly in a tizzy about colour genetics... I wouldn't like to say what colour they are without knowing for sure the genotype of the parents, except they are not blue or black!


Interesting


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Why the hell are they doing it... Someone with a bright idea ... Not

So BRI .. What happens if its an variant .... 

Cannot see any code for SH/LH

Think am gonna breed selfs lol


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh am on one. Lol

What code would this be

British SH blue tortie tabby colourpoint .. 

Am gonna have a reg cert full of numbers lol


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Why the hell are they doing it... Someone with a bright idea ... Not
> 
> So BRI .. What happens if its an variant ....
> 
> ...


probably a case of easy when you know how.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The answer is here:

http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/emscodes.pdf

I've found one difference with the codes used abroad, which is that caramels are registered as am (blue-based), cm (lilac-based) or pm (fawn-based) - ditto the corresponding tortie colours. GCCF only have fm for apricot.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Don't think I will be hitting the vodka when this comes out and I need to reg kits


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Don't think I will be hitting the vodka when this comes out and I need to reg kits


wonder is a variant will be like this BRI LH


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Pure guesswork on my part, but I suspect the code will be BRL. However as always ringing the GCCF when you have one to register is probably the best course of action.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Pure guesswork on my part, but I suspect the code will be BRL. However as always ringing the GCCF when you have one to register is probably the best course of action.


when does it come in?


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

Cosmills said:


> Oh am on one. Lol
> 
> What code would this be
> 
> ...


Well, in Fifé that would be BRI g 21 33 

And someone asked about longhairs, in Fifé they are nowadays XLH*<BRI> (XLH=non-recognized longhair). In pawpeds they just use BRL.
Back when I got my first longhair it was just the 'XLH' followed by the regular colour and pattern, no other codes indicating what breed was in question.

If dealing with other colours/patterns, it can get even more confusing when you may need to add the code for eye colour too if more than one colour is recognised.

Fifé is going to update/change some of their codes and other stuff, I will need to go through the registration rules again after new year.. *sigh* I breed under TICA, but most people over here breed under Fifé and I show there so I need to keep up.


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> I see OS..while your here OS look at this ad,the kittens look like a lilac an black smoke to me what do you think Stunning British Shorthair Girls | Grantham, Lincolnshire | Pets4Homes


That one kitten is definitely a smoke, looks like maybe a dark choco smoke? And there are lilac kittens in the pics too. At least that's what they look like on my monitor.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

NorthernDarkness said:


> That one kitten is definitely a smoke, looks like maybe a dark choco smoke? And there are lilac kittens in the pics too. At least that's what they look like on my monitor.


interesting cause they have an old ad saying they had a choccy smoke,but i asked if they are the kittens pictured that are for sale and the response i got is above..weird,

thanx for that ND.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> just got this back from them..how do they check them with the gccf?
> 
> Hi
> Yes it is the ones in the photos
> ...


Did you ask the colour of patents ... Don't know how they can check with GCCF


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

NorthernDarkness said:


> Well, in Fifé that would be BRI g 21 33
> 
> And someone asked about longhairs, in Fifé they are nowadays XLH*<BRI> (XLH=non-recognized longhair). In pawpeds they just use BRL.
> Back when I got my first longhair it was just the 'XLH' followed by the regular colour and pattern, no other codes indicating what breed was in question.
> ...


I get that code too ... So it might be easier than first thought


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Did you ask the colour of patents ... Don't know how they can check with GCCF


thats coming...


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> Why the hell are they doing it... Someone with a bright idea ... Not


Numbers and codes are always much harder to grasp than simple colour/pattern descriptions as we use over here.

But if it's the same as the FIFE EMS (easy mind system) it really is quite simple once you get the basics. 
Our pawpeds database switched to EMS as the caretakers are Swedish, thankfully I deal with a breed with few colours and patterns 

Perhaps at some point we'll all be on EMS, a universal way of registering cats.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

We Love BSH you asked how you can get CPs from a mating between 2 BiCPs. Easy!

White spotting gene is dominant over non white spotting so if neither parent is homozygous for white spotting then you will get CP cats with the non white spotting gene also - ie normal CPs.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Soupie said:


> We Love BSH you asked how you can get CPs from a mating between 2 BiCPs. Easy!
> 
> White spotting gene is dominant over non white spotting so if neither parent is for white spotting then you will get CP cats with the non white spotting gene also - ie normal CPs.


I see thankyou soupie,so how would you know if the cat is homozygous for the spotting?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> I see thankyou soupie,so how would you know if the cat is homozygous for the spotting?


*SS* = homozygous spotting
*Ss* = heterozy gous spotting (one gene for spotting, one gene for non-spotting, cat will be spotted)
*ss* = non spotted

SS x SS = all SS

Ss x Ss = 25% SS, 50% Ss, 25% ss

SS x Ss = 50% SS, 50% Ss

SS x ss = 100% Ss

Ss x ss = 50% Ss, 50% ss

You may be able to work out if a cat is homozygous by pedigree study, even better if you know sibling patterns.

I think it's also possible to DNA test for homozygosity.

In the past it was assumed that cats with a lot of white were automatically SS, but the gene has such variable expression it's not a reliable method, as some cats with only a little white can be SS, and vice versa.

http://www.messybeast.com/bicolours.htm


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I found this bit most interesting. 

Piebald spotting is a semi-dominant gene with very variable expression. Low grade spotted cats and some medium grade, spotted cats are heterozygotes i.e. they have only one copy of the white spotting gene. Other medium grade spotted cats and all high grade spotted cats are homozygotes i.e. they have 2 copies of the gene. Where cats are in the medium spotted range it is generally impossible to know whether they are heterozygotes or homozygotes unless they are bred to a cat known to be either homozygous or heterozygous. To further complicate matters for breeders, some apparently non-piebald cats are really piebald cats whose white bits are so minimal they might be no more than a few hairs in the groin or at the tip of the tail!

Am interested to try figure if my stud is SS or Ss..so MM may need your assistance


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Have you mated him with a non-bicolour? Producing only bicolour kittens suggests he's SS.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Have you mated him with a non-bicolour? Producing only bicolour kittens suggests he's SS.


I put him with 2 colourpoints and got bi's and colourpoints OS. So safe to assume Ss?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If he can produce a non-bicolour kitten he must be Ss.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> If he can produce a non-bicolour kitten he must be Ss.


ok..its coming to me now..so a bi point to a bi point who only produce bi points are SS? If the give cps they are Ss..is that both of them though that are Ss or does only one of them need to be Ss for that?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

A bicolour only needs inherit S from one parent. Doesn't matter if you are talking colourpoints, selfs, tabbies, torties, shaded, tipped, whatever.

If two bicolours produce a non-bicolour kitten both must be Ss, but mating bipoint to bipoint makes it harder to determine if a cat is SS than mating it to a non-bicolour. 

MM's post shows why.

Ss x Ss = 75% bicolour kittens on average but given how the gene fairy behaves you could get only 1 non-bicolour after a litter or two of bicolour kittens.

Ss x ss = 50% bicolour kittens on average, and you only need one non-bicolour to know the bicolour parent was Ss and on average it will come along sooner than from an Ss x Ss mating.

Also if a bicolour has a non-bicolour parent it MUST be Ss, so simply looking at the pedigrees might give you the answer.

If Sx x ss (e.g. bicolour x non-bicolour) produces 10 bicolour and no non-bicolour kittens it's long odds on the Sx cat is SS - 99.9%. Obviously it needs to be the same Sx cat each time, the ss (non-bicolour) cat doesn't have to be the same.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> A bicolour only needs inherit S from one parent. Doesn't matter if you are talking colourpoints, selfs, tabbies, torties, shaded, tipped, whatever.
> 
> If two bicolours produce a non-bicolour kitten both must be Ss, but mating bipoint to bipoint makes it harder to determine if a cat is SS than mating it to a non-bicolour.
> 
> ...


cool i actually understood all of that :thumbup:


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Good. Hope you still understand it in a week!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

It seems its alot like working self and cp mating out = to get cp kits the self needs to carry ccp

So bi pt to bi pt ,both parents need to be Ss to get a non bi pt.You could actually term it as the bi colour carries non bi colour Ss couldnt you..even though i know its not how you word it..do i make sense lol.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> So bi pt to bi pt ,both parents need to be Ss to get a non bi pt.*You could actually term it as the bi colour carries non bi colour Ss couldnt you*..even though i know its not how you word it..do i make sense lol.


That's *exactly* how it works  :thumbsup:


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Very interesting reading but jeez my head hurts.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> That's *exactly* how it works  :thumbsup:


   - feeling impressed


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Firedog said:


> Very interesting reading but jeez my head hurts.


Well done for trying to get into it FD


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