# Mia ...... aggression again



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

This is long ..... sorry - but wanted to give the full background

Some of you may remember I had huge problems with Mia and her being aggressive last summer (to the point she would attack anything / anyone in her way when she had a 'turn' - incl Archie, Maisie (my dog who she usually adores) and me)

I put it down to new cats moving in next door - Mia is petrified of other cats  - and her being able to see them in the garden & being totally freaked by it

I did eventually try to rehome her (to someone I've known since primary school) who lived in a flat (thinking if she couldn't see cats she'd be OK)

After a couple of weeks - Archie was like a new cat  much calmer, less stressed and he started staying in during the day and eating more (he was very underweight) ..... it became apparent she'd obviously been terrorising him when I wasn't here 

Anyway, although it started well, after a few weeks she started attacking her new people too ..... turned out, she could see cats out the window 

When she does this, it's almost like a 'fit' - she goes into her own little world and absolutely nothing reaches her - she doesn't recognise anyone / voices etc - the only way I can describe it which some people might've heard of / witnessed is that it's very similar to Rage Syndrome that some dogs suffer from....

I brought her home (very mixed feelings as I'm sure you'll imagine) and her & Archie are now separated 24/7

That brings it's own issues but, generally, things have been a lot calmer, Archie is still less stressed & eating much better 

Mia didn't come out 'her room' for around 2 months when she came back - it's where she was as a tiny kitten and where she feels safest  - it prob took another 2 months before she ventured downstairs

Small steps - but she comes down every day / evening - some days she only stays a few mins & goes back upstairs (usually to sleep on the chair in the spare room ) - other days she'll stay downstairs a few hours 

She'd even started wanting outside again  and has been going out now & then BUT she's had an upset tum a few times (not something she's prone to) and I've managed to figure out it's the days after she's been out

I'm therefore only letting her out if she really, really wants out (crying at door for a while) as I'm also conscious the stress of not letting her out could affect her too 

So ... things have been plodding along, we've had no aggression from Mia  and she's been doing really well recently

BUT ..... last night 

Started as usual, she came downstairs, lay on my knee on the sofa for a couple of hours , went upstairs for a bit .... came down again and lay on the sheepskin rug she loves

It got to bedtime, I picked her up to carry her upstairs (do this most nights) and got to the 2nd step and she hissed at me  - looked at her and the total glazed look was in her eyes 

Got up another couple of steps and she hissed, growled and spat at me - really started to worry that she'd get out my grasp as, believe me, trying to pick her up again when she's like that isn't fun (either for her or me as she's totally freaked when it happens) and leaving her loose isn't an option as she will also attack the dog 

Few more steps, another hiss, growl, spit and swipe with a paw she'd managed to get loose and I luckily made it to her room where it was a quick release & escape ...... (my legs were like jelly and I was shaking and then sick - I think it was the shock of it - it's horrible seeing her like that)

Woke up this morning and wondered if it had really happened ..... one glance in the mirror revealed the nasty twin claw marks across my neck which proved it unfortunately had.

Took her breakfast in with trepidation and she's not quite herself (it took 4 days for her to calm down after the last full 'fit') but miaowing at me, saying hello .......

Sorry that's so long - really gutted TBH - it's been 10 months since her last 'fit' and she's been doing so well recently, I'd started to trust her again / feel OK leaving her with the dog when I'm not here ......

Just to add - she does have Zyklene everyday and also access to RC Calm (which def helps)

Can't think of a trigger for last night's episode which is what's really got me worried


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Oh what a stressful situation to be in, sorry to hear about injuries to your neck. And you're such a kind and brave soul to have Mia back. 

Does Mia have enough outlets for her energy? Do you still play with her and enjoy it? I wonder if build up aggression could be defused by games and play. Playtime and grooming may also help to strengthen your mutual bond over time.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Although it seems a tall order, I think another go at rehoming Mia might be best. An indoor home with no other pets a floor or two up might work, where she isn't going to see other cats out of the window.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> Does Mia have enough outlets for her energy? Do you still play with her and enjoy it? I wonder if build up aggression could be defused by games and play. Playtime and grooming may also help to strengthen your mutual bond over time.


mmmmm she's not been playing as much recently so will dig out her dangler pole and see if I can get her interested in it again



OrientalSlave said:


> Although it seems a tall order, I think another go at rehoming Mia might be best. An indoor home with no other pets a floor or two up might work, where she isn't going to see other cats out of the window.


*sigh* until last night, I'd have agreed

BUT I have no idea what the trigger was last night - she hadn't been out & there were no cats around so it wasn't that

It's one thing to rehome her to someone who lives way up a block of flats (previous attempt was on 4th floor but she could still see down to street level ) and let them know she can't see any other cats .... but entirely a different matter to rehome her and not to be able to advise her triggers are 

I don't think that would be fair on either her or them


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## Aeschylus (Sep 19, 2013)

Gosh, poor Mia, and poor you. It must be very stressful.

I was wondering about how she plays. Will she and Archie play together with a dangler toy? I think I saw Jackson Galaxy use that technique with two cats who weren't getting along, although perhaps it depends on how well they're tolerating each other to begin with.

Also... I can't remember whether you'd tried taking her to the vet. I know the aggression is intermittent, but maybe it's worth ruling out a neurological cause?

I do hope you find a solution.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

We adopted Daisy as her previous owner needed to rehome her due to aggression to other cats in that household. I don't think they had enough spare time to channel her energy through games and playtime. I work from home and spend quite a bit of time playing with her and my old boy Leo. Honestly, she's as good as gold with us now  She chases paper balls, crawls into cardboard boxes and plays nicely with a Flying Frenzy with a toy mouse attached.

Have a go ... a few goes ... and let us know xx


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Aeschylus said:


> I was wondering about how she plays. Will she and Archie play together with a dangler toy? I think I saw Jackson Galaxy use that technique with two cats who weren't getting along, although perhaps it depends on how well they're tolerating each other to begin with.
> 
> Also... I can't remember whether you'd tried taking her to the vet. I know the aggression is intermittent, but maybe it's worth ruling out a neurological cause?


Sadly her & Archie can't be anywhere near each other - Archie is now the instigator of many fights, which I think became a defense mechanism (eg he'd got so fed up of her attacking him, he started to attack her as soon as he saw her)

They had been making progress - and had seen each other through open doors a few times recently with no aggression ...... *sigh*

Could there be a neurological cause - it's possible

When she was very little she had a bad fall and hurt her leg - I guess it's possible she also hit her head and it's entirely possible that could've caused some form of brain damage 

I actually just realised when replying to another thread that I'm wondering if it could've been due to me running out of RC Calm

She (and Archie) both have this ad-lib and it does def seem to help with their stress / ability to cope - some days hardly any is eaten, others they can eat loads so it's almost like they know when they need it

There were 2 days earlier this week when I didn't have any  - I'd ordered a new bag which hadn't arrived and Mia had eaten loads of it the previous few days (which is why it'd not lasted as long as usual)

mmmmm


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LL, if I have understood right Mia hissed when you picked her up to take her upstairs at bedtime? This was a warning that she didn't want you to pick her up, either because she didn't want to be taken upstairs, or because it was uncomfortable for some reason ( e.g. sore tummy?) to be carried. 

One of my cats (Ben) has occasionally behaved like this at bedtime. Sometimes he's decided he wants to sleep in the kitchen overnight instead of in the sitting room where he usually sleeps. He's hissed at me when I picked him up at bedtime, and if I pressed on and carried him to the sitting room he's growled at me. He is a really lovely boy, but strong-willed and stubborn, and character wise perhaps similar in some ways to Mia. 

So I've learnt with Ben it's more effective to offer bribes when I want him to do something, and let him make the choice to respond. Then he feels he is more in control of what happens to him. 

So with Mia, rather than you carrying her upstairs at bedtime, perhaps start a routine where you go upstairs first and then call her and offer bribes (her favourite treats, or her favourite supper etc) to get her upstairs. Once she is up there shut her in her room for the night. 

You may need to persevere until Mia knows the routine and starts to respond automatically. But I mostly do this now with Ben and he is much happier.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

mmmmm food for thought CM ..... Mia is a stubborn so & so - with a tortie temper to match their reputation so  at the best of times!

Mia loves being picked up, cuddled or carried around - it's something I've purposely done since she was tiny (Archie hates being picked up / carried and Smudge (RIP) was even worse!) 

You're also right that she only started hissing when I'd got up the 1st couple of steps - I generally carry her up to bed so she would know why she was going up them 

I did used to get her to come up herself with rattling the bag of dreamies - or putting her wet meal down for her ...... she stopped coming up even with that promise after a while though 

I will go back to that and see what happens


What do I do if she won't go up though 


Theoretically, Archie wouldn't be bothered being shut in my room overnight - he's in there when I go to bed, still there when I get up in the morning & is always there if I wake up in the middle of the night ...... BUT he does go downstairs as soon as I get up so I'm not sure how I'd get Mia back in her room 1st thing  suggestions welcome

Also, my dog does sometimes need out during the night & I don't know that I'd be able to hear her bark if my bedroom door was shut


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LL, is there a room downstairs (e.g. sitting room) Mia could be shut in for the night, so you'd still hear Maisie bark, and Archie wouldn't need to be shut in your room? Mia might like that for a change perhaps? It doesn't sound as though it would work to leave Mia in the kitchen overnight.

Also, if she is not to be bribed by the offer of a tasty supper, maybe she is not hungry at that point? Could you feed her less for her tea perhaps, so she is hungrier at bedtime, and thus easier to bribe?


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I don't have any great advice sadly, but just wondered if Mia could have heard cats outside and not actually seen one? 
I'm asking because there was an almighty cat fight outside my house early this morning and the noise freaked out my cats despite being safely indoors and double glazing!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

chillminx said:


> LL, is there a room downstairs (e.g. sitting room) Mia could be shut in for the night, so you'd still hear Maisie bark, and Archie wouldn't need to be shut in your room? Mia might like that for a change perhaps? It doesn't sound as though it would work to leave Mia in the kitchen overnight.
> 
> Also, if she is not to be bribed by the offer of a tasty supper, maybe she is not hungry at that point? Could you feed her less for her tea perhaps, so she is hungrier at bedtime, and thus easier to bribe?


Sadly not - Maisie has the run of downstairs & it really wouldn't be fair to shut her out the lounge (her bed is in there & she sleeps on the sofa a lot too)

I had cut out her wet meal & started giving it at bedtime - TBH, I think she really just doesn't want to go back in some nights  - stubborn over greedy in some regards!



moggie14 said:


> I don't have any great advice sadly, but just wondered if Mia could have heard cats outside and not actually seen one?


Anything's possible ......

*sigh*


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I wonder if scent swapping could help to re-introduce Mia to Archie and vice versa. This is what I was asked to do for my cats to make them believe they're best friends. 

Do your cats share any litter trays? I have 2 litter trays and when Daisy moved in with us, she was locked in the room with her own tray and Leo used a separate one. But at the end of the day I had to swap them, often without cleaning them fully. The next trick was to give my cats smaller portions in the morning so they ate their food and licked the bowl. Then I had to swap the bowls without cleaning them and put more food in. Saliva is very fragrant and by exchanging saliva cats learn to recognise and accept each other. I actually used this trick with bowl swapping more than once a day. 

The next stage for me was to feed my cats at the same time but keep them a fair distance apart but still allow them to look at each other. I had to be ready to step in to stop any potential trouble. This was to let my Leo associate nice things like food with Daisy, the trouble maker. Every few days I had to make this distance shorter and shorter. Seriously, after 3 weeks Daisy was able to eat and ignore Leo who was by then less than half a meter away. Needless to say, supervision of any interaction was still necessary. They slept in separate rooms and behind shut doors. After about 5 weeks I opened the doors to Leo's room one morning and Daisy was waiting right outside. She came in and they just nicely greeted each other 

What do you think of the above "experiments"?


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Bless you hun, I remember this story all too well.

How's she doing now? xx


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear this Lilylass, sounds as though she has been doing so well recently. 

Have you ever discussed possible neurologically or other causes with your vet? Has she ever been triggered by seemingly nothing before or has it always been other cats? 

There could be a very complex underlying medical issue that might be causing the behaviour if there is no set environmental trigger. Feline Hyperesthesia Syndrome can display itself as a set of outbursts where the cat attacks those around it rather than it's own body for example. 

If it does just come down to behaviour then managing it like you have been is the best you can do, and to have her go months without an outburst is amazing work!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Thanks all for the suggestions & thoughts

*Cheryl * she's back to her normal happy self again - which does make me think that *CM* has hit it on the head & it was a strop because she wasn't getting her own way 

*Ragdollsfriend* I honestly don't think these 2 can ever be reintroduced - there's too much history 

scent swapping isn't (IMHO) really needed as, apart from Archie never being in Mia's room & Mia never being in Archie's room, they both have free access to the whole house - and both use the whole house without any issues. They must smell each other & both know the other is there - and they seem happy & not at all stressed by that .... now

When Mia first came back, Archie did freak for a while - but he now seems to know that when her door is shut, she's in there & he's safe - and vice versa

Sadly, I am the trigger for many of their fights  - they are both dominant (never a good mix) and were both hand reared by me
*
alixtaylor* mmmmmm thanks for that - I had to google it  she doesn't show any of the other signs ie twitching skin / biting herself so I don't think it's that

I do think it's down to behaviour and, lets be honest, with many moggies, we don't know their history, or their parentage or what possible genetics may have been passed on

She is Jeckyll and Hyde - but she really always has been  and there is a big difference between the full scale rage attacks of last summer than what happened the other night (I probably panicked they were going to start again) 

She has been much, much better recently BUT she is still Mia .....


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

*My plan*

So ..... I think CM could well have hit it on the head - she's maybe not ready to go to bed when I am 

Several logistical things to resolve BUT, I finish on Friday for a fortnight so time to give things a try:

1) Need something heavy to stop her being able to open my bedroom door if she flings herself at it (this has happened in the past when she's wanted in there in the middle of the night)

This is an absolute no as it's Archie's safe room and it's also the room where many fights previously started (she wanted in and he won't give it up as it is where he's always slept)

He needs to feel safe too or he will stop eating again

2) She rarely goes on the kitchen worktops but I can shut the blinds in case she does & there are any cats out front

3) I have a security light on the front & side of the garage - the front one is fine but the side one will go off if any critters come in the garden. I think it's maybe safer to disconnect this one just now (and hope she doesn't see any that come inhmy

I do still have the opaque film over the bottom 1/2 of the patio doors that CM suggested last year so she can't see out fully

4) Need to think how I can get her secure before Archie wants out my bedroom in the morning ......

Any thoughts or suggestions welcome!


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Lilyass, could you add something to your plan: playtime for Mia. I really think she needs to hunt - chase a few toys - otherwise she may turn her frustration into hunting for Archie or your dogs. She relies on you to provide more interaction


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh yes, of course, I'll be doing more play with her too - the above was just a list of things to hopefully make it possible for her to have free access to the whole house (except my room) all night


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

But then she'll have access to the dog, won't she? Is that safe when she's unsupervised?


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Just one more - wild - idea from me. Is there an RSPCA shelter or another bigger animal rescue place nearby which may have a resident pet behaviour expert available? Maybe you could consult that expert :idea: They may not even charge for advice once they know you're doing everything you can for Mia and not giving her up.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

carly87 said:


> But then she'll have access to the dog, won't she? Is that safe when she's unsupervised?


I know Carly - that's what worries me & really why I've never done it regularly before 

Mia & Maisie are great friends, they sleep curled up together, and are absolutely fine together UNLESS Mia has one of her freak episodes 

She doesn't attack Maisie because it's Maisie, she will just attack anything in her exit route eg if Maisie is lying in the middle of the floor and Mia freaks and can't get out the door without going past Maisie, that's the only time she would attack her

I have also tried leaving Mia with full run of the house (except Archie's room) a few times for a very short time when everyone is out and she is really stressed and worried when I get back 

I have left her a few times, just her & Maisie for a couple of hours and she's been fine ....



Ragdollsfriend said:


> Just one more - wild - idea from me. Is there an RSPCA shelter or another bigger animal rescue place nearby which may have a resident pet behaviour expert available? Maybe you could consult that expert :idea: They may not even charge for advice once they know you're doing everything you can for Mia and not giving her up.


mmmm thanks - it's the SSPCA here (thank goodness!)

There is a pretty big rescue relatively close (ie 30 miles!) so I might ask them if they can recommend someone, thanks


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If you decided to consult a cat behaviourist LL, these people are good :

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers

They charge about £75 a session, as I recall (tho prices may have gone up since I had any contact with them), but you may only need one visit and a follow-up on the phone.

Rescues do not usually have their own cat behaviourist, but the rare few who do would most likely restrict their advice to cat owners who were having problems with a cat they'd adopted from them. But they might know of someone good, or they may know the COAPE behaviourists and could say from experience who is worth seeing.

The only way I can suggest of getting Mia upstairs in the mornings is by coaxing her into her room using bribery e.g. her breakfast, and meanwhile shutting Archie in your bedroom until the coast is clear for him to come out. Not ideal, but it may work.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Thanks CM - first glance none are anywhere near me  but there's a couple with no location noted so will try them 

One of my friends is a vet physio and knows loads of people in the vet / complimentary treatment worlds & even she could only come up with a dog behaviourist anywhere near (who also didn't know of a cat one )


I'm hoping she will go in fairly easily tonight ..... she's been outside for nearly an hour (she did come in for 10 mins but has disappeared again) - hopefully that'll tire her out & get rid of some of her excess energy! (just keep your fingers crossed she doesn't come across next doors cats!)


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Again another of my wild ideas ... how about asking in Chat if any PF members know a cat behaviour experts in your area


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There is also:

The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> There is also:
> 
> The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


O M G .... there is one very (and I mean very!) close to me on this list

That might not seem surprising to some BUT I am pretty rural and quite a way from any major towns!

*sigh*

Consultation is £280


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

On a more positive note:

Here she is enjoying the fresh air earlier! (hope you can see her!)


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

That's amazing one of these pet counsellors is nearby  Will you have a go at contacting him (or her)? Do let us know how things progress. Fingers and paws crossed for a positive outcome!


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> O M G .... there is one very (and I mean very!) close to me on this list
> 
> That might not seem surprising to some BUT I am pretty rural and quite a way from any major towns!
> 
> ...


Blimey! That's a lot if money! How long is a consultation? A week?


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> On a more positive note:
> 
> Here she is enjoying the fresh air earlier! (hope you can see her!)


Spotted her white fur! Lol! And the wine bottle you chucked out last night!


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> That might not seem surprising to some BUT I am pretty rural and quite a way from any major towns!
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Consultation is £280


I've just read again the post and spotted the footnote about consultation fee. I assume the price includes a full body massage for a stressed out cat owner plus pedicure :devil:


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Soozi said:


> Blimey! That's a lot if money! How long is a consultation? A week?


A couple of hours! 



Soozi said:


> And the wine bottle you chucked out last night!


Where  (I don't drink so wondering what on earth you've seen!)



Ragdollsfriend said:


> I've just read again the post and spotted the footnote about consultation fee. I assume the price includes a full body massage for a stressed out cat owner plus pedicure :devil:


I wish - nice work if you can get it!

It does say on his website that most people use their insurance to pay!

mmmmmmmm

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure they would count it as an exclusion as reading the T&Cs you have to notify them within 12 months of an 'issue' - sadly it's been more than this

(I guess that's another way for them to get out of paying for things - that's how they also got out of paying for Maisie's allergies as I just always paid for her anti-histamines etc myself so never bothered claiming - then when we were going to try other treatments, it was a bit fat no)


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I hope I didn't discourage you by putting a silly comment about the full body massage :blushing: I wonder if the consultation fee is set at this price to compensate for any potential commute to more distant locations. But sounds like for you it's almost on the doorstep. Perhaps there's some room to negotiate the fee  
Are you tempted to contact this expert just to see what they say?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Noooooo - it made me laugh! (I have a massage tomorrow incidentially!)

If only - there's a pence / mile travelling cost on top of that! 

I think its been set as he's assuming peoples insurance will pay


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm so sorry to see that Mia's "issues" are causing you problems again. 

Could you get a referral to a behaviourist through your vets. ? My neice is an animal behaviourist and she gets a large proportion of her work by being affiliated to a small chain of veterinary practices. If your practice don't work with a specific behaviourist I am sure that they should be able to recommend one. I am confident that my nieces fees are no where near those quoted on this thread. There must be behaviourists covering your area who do not charge extortionate fees. I really hope that you will be able to find one who can help Mia. At the moment life can't be much fun for you, Mia, Archie or Maisie.

Sending ((( Hugs ))) and all of my " calming " vibes.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Lilylass said:


> It does say on his website that most people use their insurance to pay!
> 
> mmmmmmmm
> 
> ...


Has it been documented when her problems started? Like with your vet or somewhere else official? If not, then you can say it just started. Insurance companies love to avoid paying for much of anything, says she in the country of big insurance, so if you can find your own loophole to combat theirs, it's a happy day


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Forester said:


> If your practice don't work with a specific behaviourist I am sure that they should be able to recommend one. I am confident that my nieces fees are no where near those quoted on this thread. There must be behaviourists covering your area who do not charge extortionate fees.


I would like to echo what Forester says and also hope there's an alternative to the very expensive expert. When I was on a look out for a cat behaviourist, the prices in my area varied from £150 to £50 an hour. We received help from a trained veterinary nurse who had wealth of experience dealing with troubled cats ... but not so many titles in front of her name


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

She has a warning note on her file due to her 'difficult' behaviour so sure they would use that as an excuse not to pay 

I'm also about to move insurers (my insurer pulled out the market) so certainly can't take the risk at that cost with a new one 

There are very few cat behaviourists in the whole of Scotland so finding one literally on my doorstep (as I am in a small very rural county) was a bit of a miracle AND prob also why he can charge so much as there are no alternatives unless you want to pay for someone from the west to come through (which would prob end up just as much)


Pleased to say the food & esp catnip is still working at bedtime  - just wish I could make her realise the world isn't as scary as she thinks it is so she could feel safe being out & about more & spend more time downstars.


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