# New owner trying to haggle cat caring fees!!



## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

I'll try to keep this brief. Recently I sold one of my brits (boy).

The price was $1900 (which is ridiculously low compared to what others are charging but Im a newbie and am not doing it for the money - infact as most breeders are well aware I came in negative).

I was quite clear that the price included certain things ie desexing, food, etc etc.

The new owner was very adamant that she did *NOT* want him desexed. Infact we conversed via text message about this frequently as I did specify upfront that he would come desexed.

However as you may recall things turned in her favour as when I went to get him desexed one of his balls had not fully descended & thus my vet did not desex him. I informed her of this (ie not desexed) via texts as I'm a stickler for keeping records.

Now here's the issue: at NO POINT did I change the price. I told her clearly, again all well documented, that the terms were still the same ie price but as his balls did not descend he would not be desexed (and she was really happy with this because it was what she wanted).

Today I received a text from her advising that she got him desexed and as there was complications could I pay? To be honest I'm gobsmacked!

I believe English is not her first language so I need to take this into consideration however I was always very clear and kept my written communications simple with her and at no point did it ever come across that she didn't understand what was happening.

I asked what was the complication and her reply was '_can you please help with the cost because I'm just an international student - that was too much for me_'. whilst I feel sorry for her I told her, kindly, that cats cost money throughout their life time and we, as pet owners, need to take this into account.

Am I being unreasonable? Surely unless I'm provided with evidence that there is some genetic fault and or something I did incorrectly as a breeder that caused my cats an illness then I can't be held responsible for ongoing vet fees. I'm quite upset by this as I'm a newbie and I'm trying to do everything right, for my cats and their new owners.


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## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Im with you. Its unlucky for the new owner but every operation comes with a risk and the vet ahould have made her aware of that. If she couldnt afford to pay for vet fees if anything went wrong then im not sure what shes doing buying a pet...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

While the price of your kitten may have been low, it would have included the cost of neutering which you have not had to pay.
If the testicle was still undescended by the time your buyer had him done, the operation would have been a little more complicated and therefore probably more expensive. 
I do agree that new owners should be aware of ongoing veterinary costs but in this case I'd probably contribute towards the operation if you can see a proper itemized bill from her vet.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> While the price of your kitten may have been low, it would have included the cost of neutering which you have not had to pay.
> If the testicle was still undescended by the time your buyer had him done, the operation would have been a little more complicated and therefore probably more expensive.
> I do agree that new owners should be aware of ongoing veterinary costs but in this case I'd probably contribute towards the operation if you can see a proper itemized bill from her vet.


Agree: one of mine years ago was unilateral cryptorchid and the op was much more expensive than a straightforward castration. Maybe OP could just contribute the lower cost of a normal neuter to keep the peace if it will make for a friendly future relationship.

ETA: I am fairly sure insurance paid for the operation.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

Thanks all. I’ll speak to her for an itemised account and consider paying part of it.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

I would want to see a full vet report and proof of what it cost and once getting that then yes I would pay towards the costs.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Few realise just how much more expensive a Cryptorchidism neutering can be in comparison to a normal neutering (I include both breeders or owners in this). Here in the UK that difference can be as much as £200-£300. That can come as quite a shock if you where expecting a £60 bill, and it's not something you can just shrug your shoulders over either, it has to be done.
Insurance won't cover it as they have a clause that states if the kitten is retained at 12 weeks, and the insurance was not taken out before this date then it's not covered (I've asked the question), and of course pedigree kittens are well past 12 weeks before they head off to their new homes and their insurance cover is started. It does make Cryptorchidism a somewhat different situation to an unexpected illness which would be covered.
@Fendi I agree with @lymorelynn, ask for a itemized bill and offer to pay the difference between the normal castrate and the extra (it is normally listed separately). Hopefully you can get the situation resolved quickly to the satisfaction of both parties.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

At this stage I do not even know if it is Cryptorchidism. It may very well be. I’ve asked what the issue was ie what did the vet say but her reply was “some issue with his stomach”. I’m not sure what the means but I’ll ask for a copy of the vet bill and hopefully that will clarify the problem and hopefully we can move forward to a happy settlement.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Fendi said:


> At this stage I do not even know if it is Cryptorchidism. It may very well be. I've asked what the issue was ie what did the vet say but her reply was "some issue with his stomach". I'm not sure what the means but I'll ask for a copy of the vet bill and hopefully that will clarify the problem and hopefully we can move forward to a happy settlement.


You aren't sure if a testicle isn't descended? That is what Cryptorchidism is (one or both). Advice for the future: don't let unneutered kittens go. If they have to stay longer because of this, so be it. And yes, on receipt of an itemised vet bill paying the difference is fair to both of you.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

If your price included neutering but he wasn’t neutered it’s a bit unfair for the new owner to effectively pay twice.

In the case of animals in rescue that can’t be neutered before rehoming they often state the adoption fee includes it if the animal is brought back for their own vet to perform the surgery or at owners expense if they go to their own vet.
Maybe you could do that if the issue comes up in the future as you’ll likely have a clearer picture of how much things cost at your own vet and already factored that into the overall kitten price.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm sorry to add to the general consensus of opinion here but I'm sure a number of us, as breeders, have 'been there' at some point and it's all a learning curve.

It really was your obligation to know and tell the new owner that surgery, should the testicle not descend, would cost anything from a little more to several hundred pounds more.

This surgery can become complex and lengthy when the testicle is in the abdomen (and it usually is) and cannot easily be located. It's a bit of shock both financially and emotionally for a new owner, who can find themselves dealing with a cat who has had major surgery rather than a swift and straightforward neuter.

I think one could place some responsibility with the new owner to research what might be involved prior to her agreeing to take him unneutered but in all sincerity I do think the onus is always upon the breeder to ensure new owners are fully aware of the possible consequences.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> <snip>
> 
> I think one could place some responsibility with the new owner to research what might be involved prior to her agreeing to take him unneutered but in all sincerity I do think the onus is always upon the breeder to ensure new owners are fully aware of the possible consequences.


As I remember it, this owner was incredibly keen to have him unneutered - I have no idea why. However my own policy unless selling a boy as active (which would only be to someone I know well) he would be neutered before he left even if that meant having to stay longer. I suspect my own vet is cheaper than many hereabouts - it was £120 for a mid-line spay that included repairing a small hernia.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Insurance won't cover it a


 Mine did (albeit several years ago) but he was a cross-breed. We waited until he was nine months old, still only one, and then it was sorted.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

There were red flags all over the previous thread. 

kittens leave when you say they do, not the new owner.

kittens leave neutered, non negotiable.

Are you aware of the extremely high dumpage rate of int student pets when they leave? 

if a surgery amount was not agreed upon, and a vet not agreed upon, saying ‘desexing is included’ means you pay up. 
I can’t see why full price would be charged for the kitten without all services provided and a very detailed contract to back things up.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> You aren't sure if a testicle isn't descended? That is what Cryptorchidism is (one or both). Advice for the future: don't let unneutered kittens go. If they have to stay longer because of this, so be it. And yes, on receipt of an itemised vet bill paying the difference is fair to both of you.


I was aware that it hadn't descended but my vet did inform me that given time it may descend. The new owner did not inform what exactly the issue was. So I'm just assuming that this must be the issue. It's a very valuable lesson I've learnt and for a newbie such as myself.

Thank you to all that replied - I appreciate your honesty. I've asked her for a copy/scan of her vet bill so that I can contribute to the cost (I haven't heard from her yet) but hope to do so soon, if not I'll reach out to her again.

*spotty cat*: at no point did she tell that she was an international student. When I questioned her she told me she was working, however, and I look forward to other breeders opinions on this, I never asked her *WHAT *exactly specifically was her job. she never at any stage told me she was an international student.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Fendi said:


> I was aware that it hadn't descended but my vet did inform me that given time it may descend. The new owner did not inform what exactly the issue was. So I'm just assuming that this must be the issue. It's a very valuable lesson I've learnt and for a newbie such as myself.
> 
> Thank you to all that replied - I appreciate your honesty. I've asked her for a copy/scan of her vet bill so that I can contribute to the cost (I haven't heard from her yet) but hope to do so soon, if not I'll reach out to her again.
> 
> *spotty cat*:* at no point did she tell that she was an international student*. When I questioned her she told me she was working, however, and I look forward to other breeders opinions on this, I never asked her *WHAT *exactly specifically was her job. she never at any stage told me she was an international student.


She did tell you she was an internation student. From your OP:



Fendi said:


> an you please help with the cost because* I'm just an international studen*t


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> She did tell you she was an internation student. From your OP:


That after she asked for help with the bill, not at the time of purchase.

@Fendi the vets bill will reveal all, and you can decide what to do once you have received it.
With regards to what work people do, it's not something I specifically ask, although I do ask what their working pattern is. Most willingly divulge what they do anyway as part of the general chat.
Personally the minute she said she didn't want the kitten neutered, I'd have struck her from my list, halted communication and moved on to the next person. Again with experience comes the understanding that those kittens will sell and you don't need to grab a buyer just because they are there.
You've come across the second biggest reason that breeders give up ... dealing with people. Some don't listen to what you tell them so it's best to always ensure that the contract reflects any issues the kitten may have including possible costs if relevant, so they can't later turn round and claim they didn't know / weren't told. Others will throw everything at you, if the kitten so much as looks at them funny (these can be extremely frightening people to deal with). A lot are impatient and pushy (I strike these off my waiting list). Thankfully the rest are lovely. This may be your first tricky experience but I'm afraid it definitely won't be your last if you are breeding for any length of time. As GSkinner says it's a steep learning curve.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

LinznMilly said:


> She did tell you she was an internation student. From your OP:


sorry, I probably didn't make it very clear in my posts. Just to clear it up for you when I interviewed her as a potential suitable owner, *around June/July *this year she informed me that she worked - at no point *THEN* did she mention she was an international student. I conducted several zoom and FaceTime live video calls with her and I could see and hear that she had an accent. My mentor has adopted out her babies to many people from different cultures with accents - I see no problem with this.

It was *ONLY* *Y E S T E R D A Y* that she mentioned in her text to me that she's an international student.

Anyway for the record I've reached out to her and have offered to the majority of the desexing fees so *thank you to those who replied and made me see sense. * Additionally she is a genuinely caring, kind pet owner. She sends me so many pics of him and her social media account is overflowing with videos of him. She genuinely loves him. I broached the international student thing with her and in texts today to me she's advised that her fiancé is a PR - so I think it's a pretty good indication that she'll be following suit.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

*Tigermoon* thank you for your post/reply. Yes, dealing with people is probably icky aspect of breeding, particularly as I want my babies to go to people that love my kittens as much as I do. My mentor has told me of some horror stories in her early days (which is what I'll have to learn to look out for).

I know of one breeder that asks new potential owners fill in paper work that requires disclosure of their income!! I didn't believe it until I went on her web site and saw it for myself. Personally I think that's a bit OTT but she's been breeding for several years now so it must work for her.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You said:



> The price was $1900 (which is ridiculously low compared to what others are charging but Im a newbie and am not doing it for the money - infact as most breeders are well aware I came in negative).


Not sure why you haven't charged the going rate, but your current buyer is a cheap skate. And, as others have said, I also would have blown them out as soon as they asked for him un-neutered.

Next time - if there is a next time - charge the going rate and blow out unsuitable prospective owners.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Fendi said:


> at no point did she tell that she was an international student. When I questioned her she told me she was working


usually there are signs, along with being directly asked as part of the work & home discussion.

hopefully the kitten will be ok for years to come


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Fendi said:


> I was aware that it hadn't descended but my vet did inform me that given time it may descend.


 We waited until he was nine months, at which point it became obvious that if it hadn't appeared by then, it was never going to. The vet did say six months really, but very occasionally he had seen it happen later.


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## RagdollCrazy (Aug 7, 2021)

If the complication was the retained testicle I think you should pay as it was in effect a defect you sold the kitten with. I have previously sold a Ragdoll kitten that had one retained testicle and we covered the full cost of neutering as it had to be retrieved from his abdomen. That’s the right thing to do.


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