# Blue Bengal Stud



## bengalnic (Dec 4, 2008)

I'm looking into all the colours of bengals and the genetics and wanted to find out a bit more about blue bengals. I was reading another thread and someone mentioned to stay away from blue's if you are a beginner as it all depends on their 'type' - is that just like if they are genetically brown carrying snow, etc.
If you put a blue boy to a brown spotted queen would you just get brown spotted kittens, and if to a snow spotted queen just snow kittens?
Do you only get blue kittens if you mate two blues? Do they need to be the same 'type'?
I know you can't currently show blues but there are a few breeders who do breed them, will they eventually be accepted, do you think?
Trying to get my head around it all.
Thanks
Nicola


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Hi Nicola,

This seems to be quite a difficult subject.

We've just had some, what appear to be, blue spotted babies from a silver spotted Queen and brown stud (carries snow) mating.

I thought that TICA allow blues to be shown? If not I'm sure it won't be long as more and more are appearing.

Fiona


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## bengalnic (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi, 
I was on your website earlier - you have some beautiful cats. :0) I'm not sure about TICA, i just know that the GCCF don't let you show them. I'll look into it.
I've seen some beautiful pics of blues so i hope they do become more popular and more accepted.
Congrats on the lovely litter of kittens.
Nicola


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

They can be shown in the new traits in TICA, but I would doubt if they will ever gain full status. Accepting blues lets in a lot of other colours as well and the Bengal breed I would doubt would ever agree to that.

Blue is a recessive colour so you need two blues or blue carriers to get blue kittens.
The dilute gene needs to come from both parents to get a blue.

Mating a brown girl to a blue boy will mean all kittens will be carriers, some might be blue if she is a blue carrier.

I personally feel that they should be kept separate, as deliberately introducing more recessives into brown or snow lines is not good in my opinion.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

I think they can be shown with Tica under ''new traits'', so I dont think they can compete for titles although I dont know an awfull lot about tica.

TBH I thought to most bengal breeders , the blues were undesirable, as the bengal was created to resemble the ALC??

I will always prefer the browns, just my opinion, I dont want to upset any blue breeders out there


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> TBH I thought to most bengal breeders , the blues were undesirable, as the bengal was created to resemble the ALC??


That they are undesirable, I think is still the general view especially in the US. In the UK here there does seem to be some following for the blue though.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> That they are undesirable, I think is still the general view especially in the US. In the UK here there does seem to be some following for the blue though.


 we all have our preferences I suppose,I think there are still alot of people out there who dont like the Bengal fullstop (Iam not one of them).

Myself Iam not too sure about the blue, do you think they will ever be shown under GCCF?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

"Type" doesn't refer to colour at all, it is all about the cat's body and particularly its head..

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I will be breeding Blues, I love them!

ALC are Brown, so why have Snows & Silvers? Why not Blues?? They are gorgeous!

I know of a few Blue studs, but none near you, good luck! :thumbsup:

Lots of pics & info ALC one my site! 

All About Bengal's - FrostyMoon Breeders of Top Quality Excellent Pedigree Bengal Kittens


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## Bonnylee (Mar 9, 2009)

I have a blue spotty boy that was born to parents that both carry the snow gene also. Dad is a Brown marble and Mum is a brown spotted.
I have put him on the active register with the g.c.c.f. but they do state that he cannot be shown under their rules. He was born on the 10 February.
I will probably register him with TICA and show him.... We live in Surrey.
Lee-TONLEE BENGALS.:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The rationale is that there are no true documented dilute small forest dwelling wild cats and no one has ever seen a dilute ALC.

The snow is likened to the snow leopard and silver was allowed because it is a dominant gene and breeders can easily breed away from it if they want, as it is expressed.

The blue is recessive and by many felt to be totally undesirable, hence the opposition from breeders as lines can be mixed up and as recessives are forever it is difficult to get rid of.

It appears to be a bandwagon that many new breeders have jumped on. They seem to deliberately be mixing blues with browns with silvers with snows with very little idea of the genetics involved. 
Perhaps they should be reminded of the standard.


> The goal of the Bengal breeding program is to create a domestic cat which has physical features distinctive to the small forest-dwelling wildcats, and with the loving, dependable temperament of the domestic cat.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> The rationale is that there are no true documented dilute small forest dwelling wild cats and no one has ever seen a dilute ALC.
> 
> The snow is likened to the snow leopard and silver was allowed because it is a dominant gene and breeders can easily breed away from it if they want, as it is expressed.
> 
> ...


I couldnt agree more


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

just want to say, i have seen a blue bengal once and i loved the colour.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> just want to say, i have seen a blue bengal once and i loved the colour.


I might upset some people here with my opinion but it is only that
I dont like them at all, they just look like a washed out brown, sorry


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Can they not DNA test for dilute ? I know they can recessive colours like cinnamon.

If they can that would help sort out the recessive carriers and allow those who want to maintain a pure brown line, do so. Especially if the registration policy was tightened up.

It must be a nightmare when you are trying to keep lines pure for certain traits to have others mixing and matching and placing those offspring back into the gene pool.

I am not against blue bengals, I think they look very attractive, but maybe they should be developed almost as a separate breed, so brown lines can be kept as recessive free as possible.

They do a similar thing with the oriental bi colours under the GCCF. Any non bi colour orientals from bicolour matings are varients and can only be used in bicolour breeding programs.


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## LucyCat (Apr 5, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> The rationale is that there are no true documented dilute small forest dwelling wild cats and no one has ever seen a dilute ALC.
> 
> The snow is likened to the snow leopard and silver was allowed because it is a dominant gene and breeders can easily breed away from it if they want, as it is expressed.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree with this.
When you are trying to strive for 'perfection,' with the browns especially, why would you want to ruin that by introducing recessives; there is still so much work to be done on the browns alone.
If breeders want to start 'playing around' with these dilute colours, then I feel they should be a seperate breed.

We should be concentrating on bettering the recognised Bengal colours as they are; not churning out blues etc...just to make it difficult for the passionate breeders who want the breed to remain pure

I personally hope blues are never accepted.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

I think a fair point has been made about the dilute gene.

Personally I think the blue Bengals look really nice as do the melanistics, however I didn't particularly want to breed them and had no idea they were in our lines but how can you ever be sure?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> I didn't particularly want to breed them and had no idea they were in our lines but how can you ever be sure?


It is possible to do color DNA tests to find out for certain which traits are carried. a b cs cb d
Cotton swab - so no need for blood samples.
Cat Tests

Though by the color of kittens it is often possible to work out exactly what is carried without the need for tests, but the tests could be helpful in deciding what to do with young cats to find out if they do or do not carry certain traits.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Hi Lauren,

Clearly you're from the US, yes a lot of things seem to be simpler over there!

Does anyone know if this type of test is available in the UK or do this company accept overseas tests? I would imagine sending blood tests internationally would be problematic?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

This company is fantastic - I used it for my girl - it was quicker getting the swabs off to the US than sending a letter to London - I got my results in 10 days and you can pay via PayPal. It's all done with mouth swabs on cotton buds no blood involved at all.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Thanks, that does sound interesting. I often find that dealing with someone overseas is quicker and easier than dealing with British companies which is why we're with TICA and not the GCCF.


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

The problem In my opinion is not breeding the blues or what people do or do not like its about personal preferance. I love the blues and I enjoy breeding them, it was a sheer accident I came accross the blues when my brown spotted girl went to stud with a brown spotted boy and I got a litter of 2 browns and 3 blues. 

I agree that the lines should be kept seperate and that breeders working with the blues should not mix the 2 together. I have just recently done a mateing between my blue spotted female and my brown marble ( now retired ) stud and the coat clarity I found was not clear and the markings were diluted, so I can safely say I wont be doing that again, but without trying one cannot lear and everything is a learning curve. 

The blues in my opinion will not be accepted for championship status beacuse there are many people against it, there are however some beautiful blues coming out on the show bench and possibly there will be more in the future. I wouldn't chose to not breed the blues if they were not accepted as I really love them, for me they still have the look of a Bengal, they still have the type of the Bengal and they still have the coat of a Bengal the only differance is their colour and that in its self for me is beautiful. 

Like someone said if we were staying true to the Asian Leopard cat then why were the Silvers, Snows and Marbles accepted as the Asian Leopard cat is neither pattern nor colour apart from Brown Spotted, nor do they come with huge doughnut rosettes, in fact if we comapre the Asian Leopard cat to the Bengals being bred today in my opinion they look nothing alike... that does not stop people from breeding them does it? 

The blues,Smokes,Cinnoman,Fawns and Melanistic Bengals will always be a controversal subject and they will always have people for or against I really beleive it is down to personal preferance and as long as breeding the blues is not hurting anyone else in the process or stoping the forwarding of the breed I personaly see no issues with it. 

I think that people need to be more forth coming about lines that carry for the dilute gene so that people not wishing to breed the blues can steer clear or pick girls or boys that do not carry to not produce them. 

I for one would never mislead anyone and I would be very open and let someone know that a cat or kitten could carry for blue and likewise I would not sell a blue carrying kitten into a programme of someone wishing not to breed the blues. 

I do agree that to many new breeders have jumped on the bandwagon of the blues and those who seemed to be serious in the beginning have faded out, but there are still a handful of dedicated breeders in the UK, USA, Sweden, and Norway who are working towards the blues and who really would like them to be accepted and who will continue to work with the blues either way and I am one of them, but in the same breath as I already said I do not want to ruin other lines and plan on working on a pure blue breeding programme. 

Sorry for the long post and I hope it all makes sense! 

Laura


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## LucyCat (Apr 5, 2009)

> Like someone said if we were staying true to the Asian Leopard cat then why were the Silvers, Snows and Marbles accepted as the Asian Leopard cat is neither pattern nor colour apart from Brown Spotted, nor do they come with huge doughnut rosettes, in fact if we comapre the Asian Leopard cat to the Bengals being bred today in my opinion they look nothing alike... that does not stop people from breeding them does it?


Already answered by Lauren001



> The rationale is that there are no true documented dilute small forest dwelling wild cats and no one has ever seen a dilute ALC.
> 
> The snow is likened to the snow leopard and silver was allowed because it is a dominant gene and breeders can easily breed away from it if they want, as it is expressed.
> 
> ...


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Good post Lucy.

I think if there was more information shared amongst breeders, especially in the UK, then we would all be much happier.

I have also come upon blues by accident as my breeding cats come from other breeders.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> *Diamonddust wrote:*
> Like someone said if we were staying true to the Asian Leopard cat


The standard doesn't in fact mention that we are aiming for the ALC, as I previously said in my post quoted by Lucycat. I am sure you are also aware that Jean Mills original intent was to produce a small leopard not recreate the ALC. 








This a *small forest dwelling cat *that many breeders are aiming at too - the Margay.



> *Diamonddust wrote:*
> as long as breeding the blues is not hurting anyone else in the process or stoping the forwarding of the breed I personaly see no issues with it


Elmstar has already mentioned that her intention was to breed browns, by having blue and melanistic kittens in her litters it *has* actually stopped her from progressing, her keeper brown boy has ended up producing these kittens through no desire or fault of hers.


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

lauren001 said:


> Elmstar has already mentioned that her intention was to breed browns, by having blue and melanistic kittens in her litters it *has* actually stopped her from progressing, her keeper brown boy has ended up producing these kittens through no desire or fault of hers.


I think that is is un fair that the fact Elmstar has produced blues is being blamed on other breeders and I think this a poor excuse for lack of reaserching the lines being bought, for instance her stud boy Belladonnakatz Tantalising Silver he does not carry for dilute but like most of the silver lines he carries for melaistic, I also think its worth pointing out that for a mear $20 you can have your cats tested for the colour they carry and if you susspect a cat carrying for a colour you do not wish to breed maybe people should test.

If someone approched me for a breeding cat but wanted to know what the cat carried I would offer to geneticly test for the carried colours and I would be very open and honest that it was possible the line carried for blue if I thought it might. I have kept my lines seperate and have always been open and honest that my now retired girl Glitterglam Safa Malak from Glittetglam Cleopatra and Joranbelle Maxinamillion was my blue carrying girl as Maxinamillion carries for it.

The mother of Picards Nemisis is the blue carrier there fore passing it down to picards nemisi and when he was paired with vash the other blue carrier she got blue kittens, I cannot see the pedigree of Vash, but I know that Sisco does not carry for dilute.

I agree that people need to be honest about what is carried by what line but blaming new breeders for duilte carriers is a joke in my opinion, as the blues have been around for a long time it's just that only recently people have been proud to show them off and put them out into the show ring, and place them on their websites.

People need to stop offering blues for sale as *Rare* as they are far from it they are just a Bengal in a beautiful blue coat!

The kitten pictured is produced from a melanistic mum and a brown rosetted dad
















She is beautifully marked and has wonderful rosettes and in my opinion is a wonderful looking girl who is to the breed standard.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

For those breeders that want to develop blue, then maybe tightening the registration policy for both and keeping the lines separate would help remove the opposition to blues being recognised. Both sides get what they want.


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

Saikou said:


> For those breeders that want to develop blue, then maybe tightening the registration policy for both and keeping the lines separate would help remove the opposition to blues being recognised. Both sides get what they want.


The lines should be kept sepearte I agree on this and I also agree that breeders should be open and honest about lines that carry for blue so that people who do not want to breed the blues don't.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

DiamondDust said:


> I think that is is un fair that the fact Elmstar has produced blues is being blamed on other breeders


Hold on there for a minute, I haven't blamed anyone for anything just stated that I came on blues by accident and obtained my breeding cats from other breeders! This is just a statement of fact not my attempt to blame anyone else.



DiamondDust said:


> and I think this a poor excuse for lack of reaserching the lines being bought


Perhaps this is true but then how many of us know all of these details when we begin this? We've learnt a lot over the two years we've been breeding but still get surprised.



DiamondDust said:


> People need to stop offering blues for sale as *Rare* as they are far from it they are just a Bengal in a beautiful blue coat!


They're not exactly common are they?

As I've said, I'm not blaming anyone for the fact that I have blue kittens, in fact I think they're gorgeous. As for the melanistics, which has been passed on by Sisko, I think they're wonderful but again I guess undesireable to some.

I would like to have pure brown lines, which was why I kept one of Sisko's boys, but I guess I may have to buy another stud to guarantee this but that's my problem.

As it turns out Shinzon's first mating with a brown spotted girl has created what appear to be very clear and vibrant brown coats and clear patterns.

What I _do_ find frustrating is that there's no real sharing of information amongst breeders in this country you have to dig for every little snippet of information.

It seems that everyone is just defensive about their own, or their friends, lines and your post doesn't do anything to ease my worries.

Fiona


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

Elmstar said:


> Hold on there for a minute, I haven't blamed anyone for anything just stated that I came on blues by accident and obtained my breeding cats from other breeders! This is just a statement of fact not my attempt to blame anyone else.
> 
> Perhaps this is true but then how many of us know all of these details when we begin this? We've learnt a lot over the two years we've been breeding but still get surprised.
> 
> ...


Fiona, I sincerly was not having a dig at you, and I am sorry if it came out this way, I was pointing out to Lauren001 that it wasn't new breeders fault that dulite is in the lines.

I don't know all of the lines that carry for blue but I am happy to take a look at pedigrees for you and tell you of the known blue carriers. and I will also gladly let you know when I find new ones that carry for dulite.

I truly agree that people need to be more forthcoming and can only say again I ment not to upset you or make you feel bad this was not my intention and I am sorry for the way it came across.

The blue is not rare in my opinion and shouldnt be offered as rare the true way they should be offered for sale is as a new trait they are an un recognised colour but are eligable to be registerd with TICA and the GCCF and for anyone looking to show in TICA they are a fun day out and learning experiance in the new traits classes, again this is just my opinion.

I just wish that people would look at the bigger picture and stop blaming new breeders for the dulite carriers.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Elmstar said:


> What I _do_ find frustrating is that there's no real sharing of information amongst breeders in this country you have to dig for every little snippet of information.
> 
> It seems that everyone is just defensive about their own, or their friends, lines


hear hear, its a common issue throughout the cat fancy - but there is a whole other debate.


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## LucyCat (Apr 5, 2009)

I disagree that _most _silver lines carry for melanistic. It seems only certain UK breeders are producing 'rainbow litters' and not being honest with unsuspecting new breeders who want to breed 'pure'.

Elmstar's breeder should have told her that her stud may produce melanistic kittens, and if he has produced blue kittens then he indeed _does _carry the dilute gene, as it is recessive


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

LucyCat said:


> I disagree that _most _silver lines carry for melanistic. It seems only certain UK breeders are producing 'rainbow litters' and not being honest with unsuspecting new breeders who want to breed 'pure'.
> 
> Elmstar's breeder should have told her that her stud may produce melanistic kittens, and if he has produced blue kittens then he indeed _does _carry the dilute gene, as it is recessive


 he has not produced blue kittens his son did  both parents do not have to carry dilute for it to be passed down they both have to carry for them to produce!


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

LucyCat said:


> Elmstar's breeder should have told her that her stud may produce melanistic kittens, and if he has produced blue kittens then he indeed _does _carry the dilute gene, as it is recessive


I think the point there is that Sisko's son, who we also kept for breeding, inherited the dilute gene from his mum, not his dad, and was then mated with a girl who also carries the dilute gene and produced blue babies.

He did inherit the melanastic gene from dad and was then mated with a snow girl (who presumably also carries melanistic?) and we got two beautiful melanastic babies.


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

Elmstar said:


> I think the point there is that Sisko's son, who we also kept for breeding, inherited the dilute gene from his mum, not his dad, and was then mated with a girl who also carries the dilute gene and produced blue babies.
> 
> He did inherit the melanastic gene from dad and was then mated with a snow girl (who presumably also carries melanistic?) and we got two beautiful melanastic babies.


Your snow girl will have to carry for malanistic to produce so you are right again I am sorry for my previous post it was not to upset you


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

DiamondDust said:


> I was pointing out to Lauren001 that it wasn't new breeders fault that dulite is in the lines.


Being a new breeder, I couldn't agree more.



DiamondDust said:


> I ment not to upset you or make you feel bad this was not my intention and I am sorry for the way it came across.


Apology accepted


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

Elmstar said:


> Being a new breeder, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> Apology accepted


Thank you


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## LucyCat (Apr 5, 2009)

DiamondDust said:


> he has not produced blue kittens his son did  both parents do not have to carry dilute for it to be passed down they both have to carry for them to produce!


Er, I am very well aware that both parents have to carry for the dilute gene to produce blue kittens thank you

I didn't realise that it was the stud's son Elmstar was talking about. My mistake.

All I will say is, no matter how separate 'blue programs' are kept, these dilute kittens will always end up in breeding programs where the breeder wants to progress the breed _properly_, purely because honesty unfortunately is very rare in the cat world, and too many new Bengal breeders are collecting cats willy nilly with little thought put into their programs, let alone thought put into the health of the cats or breed. But that is another story


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> Diamond dust wrote:
> The kitten pictured is produced from a melanistic mum and a brown rosetted dad,


She appears very nice but she now carries solid "a" from her mother, is that good in a breed renowned for its coat pattern??
I am sure she is destined for some breeding program and not for a melanistic program I presume, is that good??
Was it necessary to breed the mother at all, knowing that all offspring will be carriers for solid?

All homozygous recessives bred to other cats will produce 100% recessive carriers.

We will always get chance carriers in the breed, as dilute and probably solid too was in the breed from the start but to deliberately introduce at this late stage is not great, unless it is done in separate programs.

Has Sisco been tested for dilute? You cannot say anything about his status for certain otherwise.

I think you are twisting words, of course not *all* new breeders are a problem but all breeders new or otherwise who want one of each color and are mating them to snows/silvers/browns/blues/melanistics with no thought for the genetics of the Bengal are partly at fault for mixing up the gene pool and will increase the unwanted recessive burden for those wanting to breed pure without solid or dilute carriers complicating matters.


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## LucyCat (Apr 5, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> She appears very nice but she now carries solid "a" from her mother, is that good in a breed renowned for its coat pattern??
> I am sure she is destined for some breeding program and not for a melanistic program I presume, is that good??
> Was it necessary to breed the mother at all, knowing that all offspring will be carriers for solid?
> 
> ...


Excellent post.

Why indeed breed a melanistic at all???
The Bengal cat's coat is a major factor in what sets the breed apart from other breeds.
To introduce solids is just verging on irresponsible IMO.
Why not go for a completely different breed, rather than complicate an already beautiful breed, when serious and experienced breeders are striving to progress the breed in a positive direction???
It just makes no sense at all.


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

LucyCat said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> Why indeed breed a melanistic at all???
> The Bengal cat's coat is a major factor in what sets the breed apart from other breeds.
> ...


First of all let me say that the same could be said about the marble. Why not a different breed with the marble instead of bringing that in? I have a hard time placing marble, all of my buyers want a "wild looking cat". Beautiful as they may be, they dont look like ALC's. 
But here's your answer and food for thought...because marbles produce beautiful spotted. They are useful in a breeding programs because of this. My phenominal spotteds carry for very plain sheet marbles. Why? Because the sheet marble creates huge spots. Tri colored marbles produce tri-colored rosettes. I know this can be debated, but my point here is sometimes it's nessecery to bring in "undesirable" recessive traits in order to breed for desired traits.
Here's where melanistic comes in. For a number of years I have been breeding specifically for "charcoal" colored bengals. They are said to be just an unroufesed brown. But in my research and test breedings, I have discovered that charcoal can be any color. Brown, silver or snow. I also have discovered that all charcoals carry one agouti gene and one non agouti gene (Aa). So I have used a melanistic (aa) in my program purposely to produce charcoals. Mainly for research reasons. But charcoals have really put my program leaps and bounds ahead. Im now producing very dark patterned and contrasted snows. Im also producing dark marked and completely untarnished silvers (thanks to charcoal....but interestingly enough, melanistics do not produce dark contrasted silvers from my test breedings). They are truely cutting edge completely due to the charcoal gene and the charcoal gene has something to do with non-agouti. I wont go into the genetics of that but you get my point hopefully.
Now onto the blue. I need to breed for blue charcoal. The reason is that I need to have enough genetic evidence that charcoal is a seperate gene that can be inherited with any other color. The only way to get this evidence is by breeding.
I do agree however that potential breeder buyers should know what recessives the cat may carry or does carry. I am always very open about that. My reasearch is no secret. I have plenty of info on my website about charcoals and that they all carry for melanistic.
I like all of the variety of bengals. I have mixed feelings if I want them all accepted or not. To me it would depend on how they will impact the breed as a whole. The biggest question is, will they positively affect the breed or will they negatively affect the breed? Blues are pretty, but will mixing the dilute gene with other genes cause a watered down effect? No gene is 100% dominant. Even if a cat only carries the gene recessively, it can still affect the way that cat looks. You can see this with many silvers for instance. The Inhibitor gene is dominant over brown, but you can see tarnish on many or most of them to some degree because the Inhibitor gene cannot, in most cases, 100% dominate over the brown/black gene. 
In any case, I think people should be able to breed what they want, but maybe a seperate cetegory would be appropriate until they can prove that the color (or pattern, or whatever it is they are breeding for) can affect the breed in a positive way, and not so much in a negative way.
If people are breeding like this, with a purpose and with responsibility, then there is nothing wrong with it. After all, that's how the breed came about in the very beginning! Jean Mill went through a lot to create this breed. She had lots of people telling her it wasnt right to "ruin the Mau breed by making it impure". Read her sotry on her site. If she would have listened to them, we would not have the bengal breed today.

Just all my not so humble opinion...lol


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

Oh and just to add something. I have also found that when a regular brown does pop up out of my melanistic queen...they always, always have nice dark non-fading markings. Again, another reason to bring in "undesirable" genes. If your program is having a problem with fading browns, then a melanistic could be a useful tool. Even the biggest, most popular programs out there (we all know who some of them are) have the reputation for having browns (even the "golden" browns) that fade out or turn into pumpkins and fade out at maturity.

If you don't want to take the chance on buying a cat with undesirable recessives, there is always the easy and cheap DNA testing. Do that before you buy the cat.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> In any case, I think people should be able to breed what they want, but maybe a seperate cetegory would be appropriate until they can prove that the color (or pattern, or whatever it is they are breeding for) can affect the breed in a positive way, and not so much in a negative way.
> If people are breeding like this, with a purpose and with responsibility, then there is nothing wrong with it.


That is very true and responsible breeding of any colour is great but irresponsible breeding and covering up or denying of recessives is not good and mixing them with loads of colours to get multicoloured litters isn't good either.

I think we all really agree that separateness is the key, unless there is a very good reason. Having multicoloured queens and _only_ a brown spotted stud is not a good enough reason in my opinion, nor is "trying" a blue stud in the vain hope you will get blue kittens.

What in your opinion are the genetics of Charcoal?


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## trueidentity (Jun 9, 2009)

At last, a breeder who knows what they are talking about, thank you Bengalbabe for a fantastic factual post about the use of Melanistic Bengals in a breeding program.

Maybe some of these other posters with big opinions should check the exact genetic and phenotypical reasons behind using a recessive trait.

Thank you, excellent post :thumbsup:


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> That is very true and responsible breeding of any colour is great but irresponsible breeding and covering up or denying of recessives is not good and mixing them with loads of colours to get multicoloured litters isn't good either.
> 
> I think we all really agree that separateness is the key, unless there is a very good reason. Having multicoloured queens and _only_ a brown spotted stud is not a good enough reason in my opinion, nor is "trying" a blue stud in the vain hope you will get blue kittens.
> 
> What in your opinion are the genetics of Charcoal?


Agreed. 
I think any breeding program that does not have a clear objective (even if it's an all brown program) is not responsible. 
I have seen programs with all of the cats ticked & pet quality, and they are more irresponsible in my opinion than any breeding program that may be using recessives. 
The reason "why" they are doing it is the key. Is it because they can get the recessives for cheaper? Thats a very bad reason to do it!

As for charcoal genetics...very complicated and I still have a number of theroys (sp?) on the table about the exact mode of inheritence. Too many to go into it here. But for a good amount of factual info and to see my reasearch on it, you can go to my site here: http://littleleopardcats.com/bengalinformation/charcoalbengals.html


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Very interesting, thank you.


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

As I'm exhausted from a ten hour work day, my strength of argument is lacking a little more than it normally would, so please be a little forgiving.

What I don't understand is why breeders (not just bengal breeders) are so opinionated against things out of the ordinary. I say to each their own. Fifteen years ago the bengal breed was looked down upon by other breeders, we were using hybrid lines to create something different. Even today the world's largest cat organization still does not recognize us. We have all fought and struggled to recognize our beautiful breed as being different and unique... so what gives us the right to attack others who have similar dreams?

I can't say I'd have a blue in my program, but that isn't to say that I wouldn't admire a breeder who thought "outside the box" and recognized a quality within a different color that they thought was good enough to show. Not even ten years ago bengal breeders did the same thing with the silvers. And now, half a decade after they were accepted into the TICA standard they're really developing rather differently than the browns are. Oddly enough though the charcoal coloration is actually very much desired in the silver, and many well reputable lines have charcoal silvers (Legacie, Aaliyah, bluewater, etc etc), and that's also the reason why so many silver lines out there carry for melanism. Silver breeders have their own goals and dreams different from the brown breeders. Though who isn't to say that there weren't qualities carried over form the silver which are highly sought after, like the goldens or more specifically SGC Calcatta Custom Made, a SGT only four generations removed from the ASH.

Take a look at my DGC silver spotted boy who does not carry for melanism btw:










I'd personally like to see the charcoal be recognized into it's own "color" category within the TICA standard as it is definitely different than regular browns, snows and silvers. Once they're genetically proven to be different there's no real reason to argue otherwise. And though I'd love to go into the genetics of the charcoal, we have the mother of the charcoal color with us in this topic so I'll refrain from stealing her thunder.

Now what do you think would happen if breeders were so torn between different those different colors? We'd have ourselves a split in the breeders, and then there would be an offshoot of the bengal. Need an example of this? What about Ragdolls and Ragamuffins. One's restricted to seal point, the other is not. People will do what they want, regardless of whether or not one specific breeder approves.

Now just for kicks let me toss this out for your viewing pleasure. A melanistic blue eyed snow, iow a seal point bengal:



















Yes, it's a bengal not a siamese (and yes, her eyes scare me),the mother was a seal silver spotted lynx point, the father was a brown spotted. You never know what you'll produce. Recessives are forever.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Bengal Companions said:


> Take a look at my DGC silver spotted boy who does not carry for melanism btw:


WOW, he's stunning 



Bengal Companions said:


> Now just for kicks let me toss this out for your viewing pleasure. A melanistic blue eyed snow, iow a seal point bengal:


That's just amazing


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

DiamondDust said:


> The mother of Picards Nemisis is the blue carrier there fore passing it down to picards nemisi and when he was paired with vash the other blue carrier she got blue kittens


Can you tell me where in Keira's pedigree the blue is from? 

Fiona


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I know nothing about bengals, but just from a genetics point of view, I don't see how charcoal can be a different colour. The charcoal colour cats on the link look the same colour as a brown (black) tabby oriental or moggie (NOT in type, just from a colour point of view). I have 2 questions, 1. isn't it more likely that the difference in colour between two seemingly browns is down to the amount of polygenes and 2. bearing in mind the point about recessives popping up any chance that chocolate or cinnamon colour has popped up in some lines ?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The main difference in the charcoals from any other brown tabby is the fact they are lacking in rufinism and also that they have a "mask" and a thick dark dorsal stripe - the cloak. 

These markings seem to be fairly consistent in charcoals as opposed to cool brown tabbies, and it is also apparent as Benglababe says in other Bengal colours too, it may indeed be polygenes causing this effect, but it is very interesting.

I think that the seal point Siamese lookalike is the reason many are against the non-agouti melanistics being given full status in the Bengal.

Cinnamon and Chocolate have popped up in some lines too.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

It is interesting, but doesn't make it a separate colour in its own right. The density/definition of pattern maybe completely unrelated, it just so happens that those darker coloured lines also have other genes which cause the pattern difference.

Chocolate point siamese have the same issues in colour - some lines consistently produce the required milk chocolate, whilst more commonly others produce darker colder chocolate points. Its still the same colour gene though.


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I know nothing about bengals, but just from a genetics point of view, I don't see how charcoal can be a different colour. The charcoal colour cats on the link look the same colour as a brown (black) tabby oriental or moggie (NOT in type, just from a colour point of view). I have 2 questions, 1. isn't it more likely that the difference in colour between two seemingly browns is down to the amount of polygenes and 2. bearing in mind the point about recessives popping up any chance that chocolate or cinnamon colour has popped up in some lines ?


Saikou,
That's a very good question, and that is the subject Terra has been researching into. Though there are plenty of theories in regards to the charcoal, I'll explain the one I support the most. It's actually very easily explained, especially since Terra (Bengalbabe) has so graciously allowed to help her with her research.

Y'see it's already been scientifically proven that the non-agouti gene is a mutation which develops within a species gene pool. In the case of the ALC, there isn't a non-agouti gene. That's why you don't see any photos of melanistic ALC photos. So what would happen if you pair an agouti gene from a species that doesn't have the non-agouti to a different species non-agouti? The answer is simple: incomplete dominance at the agouti locus. To simplify the two genes combined create a unique form of agouti expression, due to the lack of dominance over the domestic non-agouti.

This would also explain why so many fillial generation bengals (even now) are this odd color and why not as many charcoals exist in further generations. Unless there's the non-agouti gene there though, it's sort of "invisible" until paired with a non-agouti carrier. If you take a look at Terra's (bengalbabe's) stud TGC Junglebook Native Son of Pocket Leopards (who does not carry for the non-agouti), he looks nothing like a charcoal and yet whenever he's paired with a non-agouti carrier the end result is a charcoal coloration regardless whether it's brown silver or snow.

Does that satisfy your genetics question?

Here's a few photos to help solidify that theory:

Take a look at a "charcoal" mink from Bengalbabe:


















Or perhaps a beautiful example of the charcoal silver:










Or perhaps a charcoal brown:










If the ALC gene theory proves true, it would not be very difficult to identify the different agouti gene and possibly even test for it. It's just a matter of getting breeders/pet owners together to start testing to further prove this theory. Perhaps then, then can be recognized as a different "color" within the tica standard.


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

Saikou said:


> 2. bearing in mind the point about recessives popping up any chance that chocolate or cinnamon colour has popped up in some lines ?


I wish I still had photos of them, but we've had some Cinnamon colors pop up in our lines before. Very funky looking bengals, that's for sure.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

That may explain the difference in pattern expression via the combination of agouti/non agouti genes, but colour genes are completely separate. In calling them charcoals that implies they are a different colour, when they are still brown(black) with a dominant BB or Bb or Bb1 gene combination.


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

Saikou said:


> That may explain the difference in pattern expression via the combination of agouti/non agouti genes, but colour genes are completely separate. In calling them charcoals that implies they are a different colour, when they are still brown(black) with a dominant BB or Bb or Bb1 gene combination.


I've edited my explanation to make it easier to understand.

Lol that's the confusing thing about TICA, "color" actually implies different patterns in regards to Bengals, which would be spotted and marble "color" categories. "Division" actually involves the separate color types whether they're brown, silver, seal lynx point, seal sepia, seal mink. seal silver lynx point, seal silver sepia, or seal silver mink varieties.

What I'm suggesting is that the charcoal be given a separate "color" (or in the case PATTERN) within each of the respective divisions. So instead of there being just spotted and marble color categories there would be spotted, marble, charcoal spotted, and charcoal marble color categories within a single division.

Does this make sense?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think that the word "Charcoal" has confused some.
I noticed on a website recently a "Charcoal" silver, which was not a real Charcoal as we understand it, obviously the breeder looked at the color of the cat and decided that the rosettes looked charcoal in color.


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think that the word "Charcoal" has confused some.
> I noticed on a website recently a "Charcoal" silver, which was not a real Charcoal as we understand it, obviously the breeder looked at the color of the cat and decided that the rosettes looked charcoal in color.


That does seem to happen, sadly. So any photos or links to photos? I'd love to see the pseudo-charcoal!

This is one of the reasons why I'd like to gather all breeders who support the charcoal and explain the various theories and come up with a breeding "goal" for them separate from their brethren on the normal color variety.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Cinnamon snow marble Neuter Bengal for sale in Essex
Cinnamon snow marble
and 
Bengal Types scroll down to Cinnamon Bengals.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Bengal Companions said:


> I've edited my explanation to make it easier to understand.


I understood your previous post re Agouti/non agouti genes completely, what was not clear was that are referencing a specific pattern type using the name of a colour. Very TICA, seems illogical to a GCCF bod like myself


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Bengal Companions said:


> As I'm exhausted from a ten hour work day, my strength of argument is lacking a little more than it normally would, so please be a little forgiving.
> 
> What I don't understand is why breeders (not just bengal breeders) are so opinionated against things out of the ordinary. I say to each their own. Fifteen years ago the bengal breed was looked down upon by other breeders, we were using hybrid lines to create something different. Even today the world's largest cat organization still does not recognize us. We have all fought and struggled to recognize our beautiful breed as being different and unique... so what gives us the right to attack others who have similar dreams?
> 
> ...


Your boy is stunning! 

I have seen a breeder produce blacks in a litter with what looks like siamese but they are bengals!

Her eyes are quite scary lol! but she is lovely!



Elmstar said:


> Can you tell me where in Keira's pedigree the blue is from?
> 
> Fiona


www.bengalpedigree.com is pretty good with the colours in pedigrees, I have been told that one in my new girls ped holds blue, although I cant find it way back in her ped, but the boy I have been todl hold holds it, was tested and holds the blue gene and I have seen his offspring who produce blue, it is a mindfield!! 
I was up till 5.30am going through peds! 
Your litter is stunning though! Are you going to keep any back?



Bengal Companions said:


> Saikou,
> That's a very good question, and that is the subject Terra has been researching into. Though there are plenty of theories in regards to the charcoal, I'll explain the one I support the most. It's actually very easily explained, especially since Terra (Bengalbabe) has so graciously allowed to help her with her research.
> 
> Y'see it's already been scientifically proven that the non-agouti gene is a mutation which develops within a species gene pool. In the case of the ALC, there isn't a non-agouti gene. That's why you don't see any photos of melanistic ALC photos. So what would happen if you pair an agouti gene from a species that doesn't have the non-agouti to a different species non-agouti? The answer is simple: incomplete dominance at the agouti locus. To simplify the two genes combined create a unique form of agouti expression, due to the lack of dominance over the domestic non-agouti.
> ...


they are absoloutly Stunning cats!! His face is mind blowingly gorgeous!!! Beautiful! 



Bengal Companions said:


> I wish I still had photos of them, but we've had some Cinnamon colors pop up in our lines before. Very funky looking bengals, that's for sure.


MY last girl was a Sorrel, she was stunning, I have seen a few sorrels & cinnamons and I think they are absolouty gorgeous! One was a marble and looked like a swairly chocolate! yummy! :laugh: He is from Eriador


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I understood your previous post re Agouti/non agouti genes completely, what was not clear was that are referencing a specific pattern type using the name of a colour. Very TICA, seems illogical to a GCCF bod like myself


I'm glad the description made sense!

Yes TICA is very illogical! If you read back over my posts, you'll see that I always put "color" in quotation marks. Color/division statements have gotten me reprimanded by a TICA breeder before so I can't win either way.

So with this incomplete dominance theory, do you think that the "charcoal" could gain its own pattern category within the current standard with enough breeders supporting it?


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## DiamondDust (Nov 3, 2007)

Bengal Companions said:


> Take a look at a "charcoal" mink from Bengalbabe:


As you know Joshua I am in love with this boy I showed my husband last night and he said the same as me we want one :laugh: all jokes aside I think the "Charcoal's" are beautiful and the work that you and Bengal Babe are putting into them is emense! I hope the hard work pays off soon with seeing them accepted :thumbsup:


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Yes the "" do make all the difference  My post #52 above was actually in response to Laurens post #51 directly which referred to colour and levels of rufousing - colour issues not pattern.

Assuming you want these modified patterns recognised by all registries, wouldn't it make more sense to come up with a better description


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Yes the "" do make all the difference  My post #52 above was actually in response to Laurens post #51 directly which referred to colour and levels of rufousing - colour issues not pattern.
> 
> Assuming you want these modified patterns recognized by all registries, wouldn't it make more sense to come up with a better description


I figured as much,

Here's our Charcoal Bengals group on facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=99756087588&ref=ts

That's actually what we're working on. But with just Terra and myself working on standardizing the goals of charcoals, that doesn't exactly seem fair for the other breeders, but here's what we have so far.

Defining features of the charcoal are what Terra refers to as "Zorro" markings. A pronounced charcoal "mask" with white or near-white goggles around the eyes as well as a cape or modified cape down the back and in some cases down the tail. Though not every charcoal has these for their entire life, most do and the white/near white goggles are always there. If we were to selectively breed the charcoals we could lock in some of those qualities.

The problem we're facing now is that the charcoal breeders are not communal yet, and in some cases are poorly led by a certain unnamed breeder who is NOT Bengalbabe/Terra. If we could round everyone up we could begin to start building breeding goals and do experimenting to further progress the charcoal's uniqueness.


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

DiamondDust said:


> As you know Joshua I am in love with this boy I showed my husband last night and he said the same as me we want one :laugh: all jokes aside I think the "Charcoal's" are beautiful and the work that you and Bengal Babe are putting into them is emense! I hope the hard work pays off soon with seeing them accepted :thumbsup:


Pocket Leopard Sage of Legacie is a beauty! And the fact that she landed in the hands of a well known breeder such as Jill Orman of Legacie also furthers the charcoal plight. Now if you like here, you should see her little sister, Metallica. Terra's got some photos up on the website of how she's developing thus far and see may even be better than Sage!!!

To be honest, I have yet to have a charcoal for my program. I guess I'm waiting for that special one to come along to add to my developing breeding program. My plan is to break them out on the show circuit and let other breeders know that they are in fact different. For now I choose to be an avid support of Terra's work and help out in any ways I can.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> Your litter is stunning though! Are you going to keep any back?


Maybe as a pet but not for breeding as our two studs are father and son.

We're looking to buy a nice silver girl for Sisko in the near future but can't really keep our own girls.

Mind you looking at Anara's snows and melanistics I certainly think that some of them could turn out to be breed quality!


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

Saikou said:


> That may explain the difference in pattern expression via the combination of agouti/non agouti genes, but colour genes are completely separate. In calling them charcoals that implies they are a different colour, when they are still brown(black) with a dominant BB or Bb or Bb1 gene combination.


Silvers are still BB but with the added I (inhibitor gene). Further, Marbles are still BB but the tabby expression is different and its not even understood what genetically makes it different. Its thought to work much in the same way as charcaol, with the ALC genes making the classic pattern look different. So why just because if the cat is BB with something "added" cant it qualify for it's own color? When in fact, these two examples qualify. The fact that charcoal can be inherited with every other color is what causes us to want to it to have it's own category. The main reason this idea is being pushed is because from the start bengal breeders have been saying charcoal is just an unroufesed brown. Which is incorrect. Charcoal can be a snow or a silver OR a brown. (maybe even blue or cinnamon, test breeding needs to be done) It' is caused when there is something different or "added" to the agouti gene. There is a gene that turns this charcoal color on or off. We know this part. We just don't know exactly what it is yet.

As for breeders getting confused, that can happen in any color. That happens with snows (which type of snow people have) and with silver-snows and with silver & snows. Sometimes even with browns and silvers (tarnished slvers looking brown).


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Phew - i've been reading all of this and finding it fascinating, I have never bred Bengals but I am into genetics 

Before I read the Pocket Leopard web page, having seen the pics posted here, I was wondering if the charcoal effect was due to an extension gene mutation and now I've read it, I see that this is indeed a possibility.

The Amber colour in NFCs has been proved to be due to extension gene mutation, here is a pic of an Amber Smoke NFC:

http://www.skogkattslingan.com/foto/KrusmonsGoldenGate1.jpg

this cat has the strange "mask" & dark nose/muzzle which looks a bit like some of the charcoals. But this cat is Smoke (non-agouti, aa).

Could it be that some of the Charcoals are actually non-agouti (melanistic) with an extension gene mutation?


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

kozykatz said:


> Phew - i've been reading all of this and finding it fascinating, I have never bred Bengals but I am into genetics
> 
> Before I read the Pocket Leopard web page, having seen the pics posted here, I was wondering if the charcoal effect was due to an extension gene mutation and now I've read it, I see that this is indeed a possibility.
> 
> ...


It is possible there is an extention gene mutation involved here. However, they are not non-agouti (melanistic) because ALL charcoals tested (by either breeding or by genetic testing) were Aa.

If you go to my charcoal page, it talks a whole bunch about this and the possibility of an extension gene mutation of the agouti locus.

However, Josh's twist on another theory I have touched on on that webpage is looking more and more promising. I don't want to explain it here since we are both trying to gather more evidence before he comes fully out with it. If Josh wants to explain it, he can.


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> The main difference in the charcoals from any other brown tabby is the fact they are lacking in rufinism and also that they have a "mask" and a thick dark dorsal stripe - the cloak.
> 
> These markings seem to be fairly consistent in charcoals as opposed to cool brown tabbies, and it is also apparent as Benglababe says in other Bengal colours too, it may indeed be polygenes causing this effect, but it is very interesting.
> 
> ...


True and another main difference is that all charcoals are Aa. So the agouti locus is being affected somehow. Either by a mutation/extention or by ALC genes having an effect on the domestic non agouti gene. Interestingly not all Aa are charcoal...but ALL charcoal are Aa. So there is a yet unknown gene at work having an effect here. Something "turns on" the charcoal effect.


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

That siamese kitten look alike should look more like a 'silver smoke' once the body color comes in. With SLP bengals the body color takes awhile to come in usually. So the kitten will no longer be a siamese look alike. Snows that are also melanistic are referred to as "self snows" by some breeders. There's no official term for it yet though I don't think.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2009)

I cant add anything to this post, but I love all the cats on here, they are beautiful


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Thanks, I read your charcoal page and found it all really interesting! There do seem to be some similarities between the charcoals and the ambers. 
I think this proves just how much we DON'T yet know about feline genetics 

I sometimes judge Bengals at GCCF shows (in miscellaneous classes) so I will make sure to look out for charcoals now. I'm not sure that they really meet the GCCF standard though, as highly rufoused cats are preferred.

good luck with your investigations!



bengalbabe said:


> It is possible there is an extention gene mutation involved here. However, they are not non-agouti (melanistic) because ALL charcoals tested (by either breeding or by genetic testing) were Aa.
> 
> If you go to my charcoal page, it talks a whole bunch about this and the possibility of an extension gene mutation of the agouti locus.
> 
> However, Josh's twist on another theory I have touched on on that webpage is looking more and more promising. I don't want to explain it here since we are both trying to gather more evidence before he comes fully out with it. If Josh wants to explain it, he can.


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

kozykatz said:


> Thanks, I read your charcoal page and found it all really interesting! There do seem to be some similarities between the charcoals and the ambers.
> I think this proves just how much we DON'T yet know about feline genetics
> 
> I sometimes judge Bengals at GCCF shows (in miscellaneous classes) so I will make sure to look out for charcoals now. I'm not sure that they really meet the GCCF standard though, as highly rufoused cats are preferred.
> ...


That is true. It is frustrating how much I dont know about cat genetics, and how little is known about cat genetics in general.

Thank goodnes the TICA standared was recently changed to take out the "roufesing preferred" part! That part of the standard never made sense to me because so many EG's are charcoal colored. Plus I have even heard there are some subspecies of ALC that are unroufesed but I have yet to see pictures of any.
However that just is for browns anyway. I think charcoal snows and silvers would do well there. They are not supposed to be roufesed. I have found that my charcoal silvers are completely tarnish free.


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

bengalbabe said:


> However, Josh's twist on another theory I have touched on on that webpage is looking more and more promising. I don't want to explain it here since we are both trying to gather more evidence before he comes fully out with it. If Josh wants to explain it, he can.


I don't mind explaining, it's better to work out the kinks in the theory here than have the argument be weakened from lack of different opinions.

First though I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the charcoal bengals facebook group:

Login | Facebook

We need people. We want your opinions, regardless of whether you breed, or have charcoals. What matters most are having the opinions of others!

As I was explaining before, the basic idea goes back to the ALC. As the cliche goes "the proof is in the pudding". It's already been scientifically proven that the non-agouti gene is a mutation which develops independently within a species' gene pool. Since the domestic cat and Asian Leopard Cat are two seperate species there are some differences between the two that appear. Infertility being the most obvious to point out, followed by more desirable traits like the coveted whited belly which so many breeders are trying to lock in... but let me ask you a question: How exactly can a different species agouti gene automatically be dominant over another's non-agouti gene.

The answer is quite simply really, it's not. Ever notice the number of early generation bengals that end up producing charcoals? Ever notice the number of EG charcoals out there? Well what's going on here is simple, the ALC's agouti gene and the domestic non-agouti gene (melanism) are not completely dominant over each other, so you end up with this in-between state known as "incomplete dominance".

Which brings me to my next question, what exactly is the agouti gene?

For the sake of this explanation I'll just compare it the agouti, non-agouti and charcoal to a light-switch and light dimmer. With the agouti gene, the light is turned "on" everything is bright and you can see everything in the room (so spotted markings in this case), but with the non-agouti gene the light switch is turned "off" the room is pitch black and though sometimes you can faintly make out your surroundings (ghost markings) it's very difficult.

So now rip out of light switch and put in the light dimmer. Now you can switch the intensity of the two to right in the middle to where it's not completely bright and vivid, but also not pitch black either. The charcoal is that in-between state, it's coloration is "charcoal" grey because the two are both "fighting" against each other.

This explanation also would help explain why some charcoals are much darker in comparison to others. That light dimmer is set to 3/4 bright or 1/4 dark on some. It's just a matter of which is taking dominance over the other.

Now the real fun is when you look over the breeds history and realize that Jean Mill's first f1 bengal, "kinkin" was from a melanistic domestic sire/ALC mother. "the proof is in the pudding" She was a charcoal, the first 'bengal' was a charcoal. So why are they the last to be recognized!?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

So how can you test your theory?


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## Bengal Companions (Jun 10, 2009)

That's relatively easy, albeit time consuming. 

Take two charcoals and breed them together. The litter will yield melanistics, charcoals and non-charcoals. Hypothetically speaking here, the non-charcoal will carry two ALC agouti alleles, so pairing it to a non-agouti or a non-agouti or a carrier (that's not a charcoal) will yield charcoals when paired back with the non-agouti gene.


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

I'd like to add why this would work if this theory is right. 

Because Josh is suggesting that only when a cat has the ALC version of Agouti, and not the domestic version of Agouti, can a cat produce a charcoal when paired with a domestic non-agouti gene.
That is why not all cats who are Aa are charcoal. They don't have the ALC agouti gene, but rather they have the domestic agouti. 
But all charcoals are Aa. The "A" being the ALC agouti and the "a" being the domestic non-agouti.
The AA offsping of two charcoals should (in theory) carry TWO copies of the ALC agouti and no copies of the domestic agouti. So when you pair this cat with a non-agouti (melanistic or melanistic carrier) *BINGO* ...charcoal kittens. Actually this cat when paired with a melanistic should ONLY produce charcoal. If paired with a melanistic carrier, should be able to produce non-charcoal and charcoal. So for test reasons it would be best to pair this cat with a melanistic, non-charcoal carrier. 

Just to be clear and backtrack a little bit, the AA offspring of two charcoals will not be charcoal themselves.

So far in the few test breedings that have taken place between two charcoals, there has been no AA that have popped up. All offspring were charcoal and melanistic. But the test sample is not large enough yet. We need many more people to join in breeding charcoal X charcoal to see if any AA will pop up.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

this is all fascinating - are you going to ask for DNA investigation, it would be good to be able to prove conclusively that the ALC and domestic agouti genes are different from each other.


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

kozykatz said:


> this is all fascinating - are you going to ask for DNA investigation, it would be good to be able to prove conclusively that the ALC and domestic agouti genes are different from each other.


We are in the process of trying to find someone who will look into it at the genetic level. We have contacted a few people including UC davis Leslie Lyons. But no one has responded =0( Any help trying to contact people that can look into it would be very much welcome!

Oh and I just looked over the amber information and you are right it does seem to somewhat coinside with how the charcoal works. 
Non-agouti cannot signal in the presence of red colors (to be very basic in my terminology). That's why you dont see "orange charcoals". All charcoals are unroufesed. There may be a tiny bit of brown color with some of them, but very very little. 
But this would actually support the ALC agouti gene. ALC are roufesed (very yellow) perhaps the non-agouti misfires in the presence of the ALC agouti gene?

So it would seem there needs to be three things that happen for charcoals to appear:
1.)There has the be the ALC agouti gene
2.)There has to be the domestic non-agouti gene
3.)The cat has to be unroufesed (not be carrying many roufesing poly genes)

My question is, can the non-agouti normally signal in the presence of red/ or does the amber gene cause this phenominon? Because if the non-agouti cannot normally signal in the presence of red, then there's no extension gene needed.

Does any of that make sense? lol 

Your right....it's all very fascinating!


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

You might like to join the gene-poole yahoo group, it is specifically for discussion of feline genetics.
In fact I posted on there the other day to ask if anyone knew about the genetics of charcoal bengals (having read your posts on here!), but there hasn't been a response yet 
I know there are several Bengal breeders on there though.

the group is at gene-poole : Discussion about feline genetics

One thing I know about non-agouti - it does not function properly in the presence of phaeomelanin (red, sex-linked) which is why red and cream solid cats still show at least some tabby markings.


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## bengalbabe (Jun 9, 2009)

kozykatz said:


> You might like to join the gene-poole yahoo group, it is specifically for discussion of feline genetics.
> In fact I posted on there the other day to ask if anyone knew about the genetics of charcoal bengals (having read your posts on here!), but there hasn't been a response yet
> I know there are several Bengal breeders on there though.
> 
> ...


Oh ok, is it always sex linked? I looked it up on the UC davis site and didnt see anything on there about it being sex linked. I guess i need to look into it more.
Thanks for the link!


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## Hetep Cats (Mar 11, 2012)

Hi
It isn't as complicated as you have been led to believe.

Blue Bengal to Blue Bengal will produce only Blue Bengals.

If you breed a Blue Bengal to a brown Bengal carrying recessive blue you have a 1 in four chance of producing a Blue Bengal.
If you breed a brown Bengal to a brown Bengal both carrying recessive blue you have a 1 in four chance of producing a Blue Bengal.

Both parents have to be carrying the recessive blue gene, if only one parent is carrying the recessive blue gene you will not produce Blue Bengal kittens.

There is a blood test available to determine if a cat is carrying the recessive blue gene.

To find our more about Blue Bengals visit bluebengalcats.com

regards Deb


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