# Could a breeder not know they have Giardia in their midst?



## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

Is it possible for a breeder to have cats/kittens with Giardia and not be aware?

My vet has me a bit worried as we suspect our new kitten (who we've now had for three weeks) may have this parasite. Obviously the only place she could have gotten it would have been at her breeders and the vet told me it is quite common for pedigree breeders to have this and knowingly not treat it? He has seen this many times locally with ped kittens and seemed to think that this was just another case of a kitten being missold in this way. 

I'm having a hard time believing that this is the case as I visited so many times and the cats all seemed really content with no bad smells etc and had a regular worming schedule (I thought I'd asked all the right Q's). I contacted the breeder when on the first night I noticed my kitten had a lot of blood in her stool and she agreed with what the vet nurse had also said over the phone which was that since she'd had advocate the day prior to me picking her up that it was possibly just worms detaching in the bowel or the fact that she'd of been straining to go quickly in a new home environment. The vet nurse said they'd see her in a week or two to give her time to settle in with us and unless she seemed dehydrated/lethargic or stopped eating/had constant diarrhea not to worry too much in the meantime. 

This all seemed to be sensible advice to me but for the past three weeks she has had intermittent spots of blood and every other poop she does is now loose. This is all despite her seeming perfectly happy and settled. She loves life and enjoys her playtime's like any other kitten. So we're now waiting for the results of a three day stool sample test to determine whether it is Giardia and we have begun treatment with panacur today to be continued for the next two days as prescribed by the vet. 

I haven't contacted the breeder since as I wanted to wait for the results first but I'm worried that if they come back positive that I'll not be able to trust a breeder again. It seems unfair that our girl has to go through this as its confusing and must be uncomfortable for her. I have to clean her bum after her litter box visits which she doesn't like and I also have had to restrict where she can go at night when I'm not there to clean her following a visit to the litter box. Otherwise she will accidently track blood or poop onto bedding areas as she just likes to come and go and just generally be close to us. She has never been any trouble or disturbed us at night :sad:

There is also the worry in the back of my mind that if it isn't Giardia then what else could it be? The vet seemed fairly certain as to what it was but it's just a waiting game now as I try to minimise every risk of her reinfecting herself and obsessively (according to my OH I have OCD for mopping/hoovering twice a day ) keep the whole house clean!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'd guess it is possible for a breeder not to know. I believe adult cats cope far better with these parasites and can therefore be symptomless. What's more, if a breeder uses Panacur to worm kittens they could theoretically never see symptoms in the kittens. As well as being a wormer Panacur is the treatment for Giardia. It's a longer course for treating Giardia but I'd guess the three day course for kitten worming could be enough to suppress the parasite and keep a kitten symptomless until it went off to a new home if the breeder wormed according to the directions.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There is also the worry in the back of my mind that if it isn't Giardia then what else could it be?


The most likely suspect would be T-Foetus, another parasitic nuisance and easily treated once diagnosed. Again, adult cats are often asymptomatic.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> the vet told me it is quite common for pedigree breeders to have this and knowingly not treat it?


Not treat it or not pay a vet to treat it? Panacur is a non prescription product and easily obtainable from numerous sources so the vet couldn't possibly have the data to back up that comment. You know what you're going through with one kitten. Would it seriously be likely that a breeder would live with those symptoms in a multi cat household when around £20 would sort it?


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

havoc said:


> Not treat it or not pay a vet to treat it? Panacur is a non prescription product and easily obtainable from numerous sources so the vet couldn't possibly have the data to back up that comment. You know what you're going through with one kitten. Would it seriously be likely that a breeder would live with those symptoms in a multi cat household when around £20 would sort it?


Thank you for the feedback :thumbsup: My other half said much the same and that I shouldn't lose faith in people just because the vet is being a bit cynical. He mentioned a few breeders in the area using herbal remedies rather than drontal or panacur believing them to be too harsh? I know the breeder we used favoured advocate or advantage for her cats but she said nothing of herbal remedies.

At least were hopefully on the right track with the panacur granules  I'm hoping we'll see improvement in her quite quickly once they take effect.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Suggest you get some Panacur on-line and treat the kitten with the course for Giardia.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> At least were hopefully on the right track with the panacur granules


It can take longer than the stated five day course to shift Giardia. You are absolutely on the right track with your obsessive cleaning regime. Giardia encysts which means it can live for some considerable time outside the host and you are not wrong with your worry of reinfection. Many people think the Panacur isn't working when it is but the cat is being newly infected again and again. Take on board Oriental Slave's suggestion of buying some online and be ruthless in your determination to shift this. Panacur and bleach will be your two greatest friends  Completely empty the litter tray daily, scrub it clean then rinse it in a bleach solution (1 part bleach to 32 parts water) and let it air dry. It is contact time which is important and you cannot reduce the time because you use a stronger solution. Aim to keep every surface you treat wet with bleach solution for 10 minutes.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Is it at all possible the kitten has an upset tum due to a food change?Do you feed the kitten what the breeder fed the kitten?


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

Oh good well I'll be sure to tell him that then as I get the mop and zeflora out everytime she has used the litter box and since I'm using litter liners just throw the whole lot out everytime she poops. I know it is wasteful but I was worried about reinfection rather than it being an odour issue. 

I didn't realise I could buy panacur online though, so I will do that straight away (presently buying more litter at zooplus at the minute :laugh. They told me to give her 3 days panacur and wouldn't let me buy any surplus but if you both think 5 days is better then I'll get extra ordered straight away. 

I think since I'm wiping her paws and backend as well she has less chance of ingesting the parasite again. Although, it does mean she fawns all over my other half as I'm the baddy who is always wiping her the poor love. Fancy going through this in your first few weeks at your new home. 

Appreciate all your help and being a member of this forum is a big help in these situations


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

panacur comes in 2 different strenghs too i think its 2.5% and 10% i buy the 10% one.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Panacur is a lot cheaper to buy online than it is from your vet too 

I bought a box of 10 syringes for less than half the price I would have had to pay at the vets


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've just checked the datasheet and it does indeed now say 3 days. It did used to be 5. Frankly I don't think a week would be too long but cleaning and disinfecting the environment is equally, if not more, important. I'm not sure if Zeflora is effective. Dilute bleach is and a darn sight more economical.


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Is it at all possible the kitten has an upset tum due to a food change?Do you feed the kitten what the breeder fed the kitten?


She was on Royal Canin Digestive Health at the breeders so we kept her on that to minimise stress with a view to changing her to wet after she'd settled in. I have tins of ropocat sensitive gold (both venison and chicken) in the cupboard and when I saw she was having intermittent loose stools I thought perhaps it was the dry food/grains causing the problem but even a teaspoon of the venison just resulted in a runy poo later that day despite her really enjoying it and wanting more.

My vet understood I didn't want to syringe her with panacur though given that she is already stressed with having to be cleaned up so often (mainly because she gets blood on her backend or pooey paws). So he said a small amount of boiled chicken or wet food would be fine to mix with the granules for the next few days. So she has had a teaspoon worth of boiled chicken today with the panacur granules which again she loved so much she licked the bowl clean.

It's a shame because she cries for the wet food when she thinks I'm making it (it's usually baby food I'm actually making for my daughter but she confuses the spoon noise and meows at me). She happily eats the dry but I do think when she's better she'll have no problem switching or be a fussy eater. The vet is obviously very keen for me to continue her with dry only though which I'd rather not do.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

This treatment seems very difficult to manage!! I have had problems with my kittens runny poo and am just starting the second lot of panacur. I did it 2 weeks ago for 5 days and again now for 5 days. If he is no better we will check a sample. My other 2 adult cats have never had runny poo, I worm them with milbemax. The vet never suggested any more cleaning than normal or treating the other cats. Am I going to go round in circles??????


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

Thanks I'll opt for the bleach instead then, I only went for zeflora as it said pet safe on the box but I don't let her in the room to walk on it until it's dry anyway. 

I also just checked the strength on the panacur and it says 22.2% Its only a 1g packet to be divided over three days. They did weigh her though and wouldn't even let me have spare packet incase I dropped any or she wouldn't eat it so it must be prescription only stuff.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The vet never suggested any more cleaning than normal or treating the other cats. Am I going to go round in circles??????


You could be. Giardia can live for long periods outside the host which is why it's so easily spread and can be so difficult to eradicate from a household. I wouldn't tell you to go against your vet but if I had a definite diagnosis I'd be treating all animals and going even more mad with the bleach than I do normally


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## Bloodraine5252 (Jan 13, 2013)

Loki had giardia from the breeder.

Both cats had it for months. April I think was their first treatment, I took till September to shift it. A strict cleaning regime was followed along with panacur and abs.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I also just checked the strength on the panacur and it says 22.2% Its only a 1g packet to be divided over three days. They did weigh her though and wouldn't even let me have spare packet incase I dropped any or she wouldn't eat it so it must be prescription only stuff.


No it isn't. The liquid form comes in 2.5 and 10%. The granules just happen to be 22.2% and the dosage is adjusted accordingly.
Panacur Wormer Granules Sachets - From £0.53

Edit - I bet the price is going to shock you. Dread to think what your vet charged you


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

it is possible to be a grain intolerance issue or some other.Further down the line if the panaur doesnt work maybe try her on raw venison from Cat Food (Venison) 2 x 500g - Natural Instinct i found this food great for cats with food intolerance issues also Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Gastro Intestinal Feline 4kg | eBay was good.

Sometimes vets say try a boiled chicken only diet to see if the stools harden up and then try the usual food and see if they get the runs again.

Did you say you were awaiting test results?When are they due back.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> No it isn't. The liquid form comes in 2.5 and 10%. The granules just happen to be 22.2% and the dosage is adjusted accordingly.
> Panacur Wormer Granules Sachets - From £0.53


Ah are you on about the granules,yes i was talking about the liquid.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm using the paste in a gun thing. The vet originally gave me granules but I could never get him to eat all the food with the stuff on so he never had a proper dose. Were not even sure he's got it. My others have never had a problem at all so I'm sure they haven't ever had it. The funny thing is he definitely didn't have it when I first bought him.


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

havoc said:


> No it isn't. The liquid form comes in 2.5 and 10%. The granules just happen to be 22.2% and the dosage is adjusted accordingly.
> Panacur Wormer Granules Sachets - From £0.53
> 
> Edit - I bet the price is going to shock you. Dread to think what your vet charged you


Haha typical well you can add an extra £1 on for the vets finders fee and that's what I paid. Although, I wont be from now on thanks for the link :thumbsup: I find it bizzare that they wouldn't allow me to buy more and yet I can get the same stuff online!



we love bsh's said:


> it is possible to be a grain intolerance issue or some other.Further down the line if the panaur doesnt work maybe try her on raw venison from Cat Food (Venison) 2 x 500g - Natural Instinct i found this food great for cats with food intolerance issues also Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Gastro Intestinal Feline 4kg | eBay was good.
> 
> Sometimes vets say try a boiled chicken only diet to see if the stools harden up and then try the usual food and see if they get the runs again.
> 
> Did you say you were awaiting test results?When are they due back.


Thanks for both links, I've been hoping to get some natural instinct to try her with further down the line. I can't house a whole 5kg order in my freezer though sadly but I have found an _almost _local pet shop I can go to and hopefully buy it in smaller amounts. It'll be a bit of a road trip but they're listed on the natural instinct website so may sell it in just the 500g tubs to try.

They said they'd have the results back from idex? within three days so by midweek we should know for sure.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The vets don't want you to know when they are selling you non prescription products 
Have a good look at all suppliers for your Panacur. Some charge a bit more than others but are P&P free so the overall cost is lower. ight be worth buying a larger size pack and working out how to split it into the right doses.


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

Just a little update to say it doesn't look like she has Giardia so this is good news except that it doesn't answer the question we went to the vets with initially. There is another culture they're doing on the sample I forget what it was for but it takes another week to get that back so I'm to ring next week for that result. 
They advised to continue with the bland feeding for now and not to change her food yet for another few weeks and only then with very small quantities. 
She's settled right down on the kibble and spoonful of bland chicken though and her litter box visits are less stressful as she doesnt need a clean from me afterwards and there's been no blood since she finished panacur dose yesterday. So she is a happy kitty again and as much as i want the answer to everything I'm just relieved for now atleast she seems okay.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Great news my guess is that its food intolerance issue i hope you get answers soon.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Gorgeous kitty :001_wub: Really good to hear she is feeling better


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

If the diarrhoea and blood appear again, you may want to send off a 3 day pooled sample (refrigerated in between) for PCR testing for Tritrichomonas Foetus (TF) as Giardia and TF often go hand in hand unfortunately.

I really hope it isn't TF (I'm currently treating my 2 Bengal kittens for it with Ronidazole) so I understand what you are going through. I had 7 weeks of stinking, bloody, diarrhoea with stinky farts!! Poor little things. I had to go through the 5 day Panacur which did nothing, then on to bacterial testing (all came back clear) until finally I got the unsurprising TF result. I was expecting it to be honest...

Let us know how you get on

Loopyloro
x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I really hope it isn't TF (I'm currently treating my 2 Bengal kittens for it with Ronidazole) so I understand what you are going through. I had 7 weeks of stinking, bloody, diarrhoea with stinky farts!!


Do you mean it's taken 7 weeks of treatment for TF  From what I see and hear TF isn't that difficult to treat, it's the weeks with lack of diagnosis which cause misery.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Havoc

You misunderstood my post. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I had 7 weeks of hell during which time we used Panacur and then had bacterial testing come back clear before finally sending off a PCR test for TF which was positive. I am now treating them with 14 days of Ronidazole (1 per day) and then will send another sample two weeks after finishing the treatment to check it has gone

Loopyloro
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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

I just wanted to update this thread to say the second set of results came back clear today. So she doesn't have Giardia or several other parasites I can't even name. 

They didn't test for TF though (thank you for sharing your experience loopyloro hope your cats are well soon as it sounds awful). I am picking up a sample pot for a TF test on Saturday that way I can do it over the weekend when I can watch her more closely but the vet did say to buy the Royal Canin vet diet dry food to see if this would help in the meantime as she also suspects it could be a grain intolerance and doesn't want me to have to pay for expensive tests again if this can remedy her problem in the meantime. I've ordered some from zooplus and she won't notice the difference between this dry and the dry she eats at the minute. I hope we get answers soon though as I really would like her to be eating wet without it inflaming her bowel and causing more upset. 

She can go 2-3 days at a time doing normal poops but then will have the odd loose stool now with bloody mucus. 

I'll keep updating this thread as we find out more as I suspect people may find it beneficial in the future if they encounter the same problems as we've had.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Mum said:


> I just wanted to update this thread to say the second set of results came back clear today. So she doesn't have Giardia or several other parasites I can't even name.
> 
> They didn't test for TF though (thank you for sharing your experience loopyloro hope your cats are well soon as it sounds awful). I am picking up a sample pot for a TF test on Saturday that way I can do it over the weekend when I can watch her more closely but the vet did say to buy the Royal Canin vet diet dry food to see if this would help in the meantime as she also suspects it could be a grain intolerance and doesn't want me to have to pay for expensive tests again if this can remedy her problem in the meantime. I've ordered some from zooplus and she won't notice the difference between this dry and the dry she eats at the minute. I hope we get answers soon though as I really would like her to be eating wet without it inflaming her bowel and causing more upset.
> 
> ...


Please, please get the TF test done. I am no expert but it screams TF to me. I would want the test done to be sure and to put my mind at rest. The food change may help to "mask" the symptoms so you would think that is the problem solved but in actual fact, they may have TF.

Should have mentioned - pool a 3 day sample into one pot and refrigerate in between. So, get some poop Saturday, Sunday and Monday morning and then take to vets on the Monday morning.

Thanks for asking about my 2. I only have 2 more capsules of Ronidazole to give them and then they are finished - yay! I have had NO bloody, stinky diarrhoea since day 2 of taking the 14 day course so it appears to have worked.

Loopyloro
x


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I've seen Cricket drinking out of the creek and asked his vet about Giardia. He told me virtually every animal in this county will test positive for Giardia. They don't even test for it typically because of this, most animals show no symptoms according to this vet, at least where I live.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> I've seen Cricket drinking out of the creek and asked his vet about Giardia. He told me virtually every animal in this county will test positive for Giardia. They don't even test for it typically because of this, most animals show no symptoms according to this vet, at least where I live.


Mmmm I've not heard that. Here is the info I have -

The cause of Giardia in cats is swallowing a protozoan known as Giardia intestinalis. Cats can catch it from each other through fecal material. They also get it from dinking water containing the protozoans and might pass the parasite to humans.

In general, kittens shed more Giardia cysts through their feces than older cats do. The more cysts swallowed, the more that end up in the cat's intestinal tract to cause an infection.

Symptoms

According to Cat World, most cats with Giardia don't show any signs of the infection. However, they might keep passing on the cysts for a period of months or even years. If symptoms are noticeable, they tend to occur in younger felines from households with more than one cat or from environments like colonies.

Once a sufficient number of cysts containing trophozoites accumulate, the cat might have foul-smelling stools with a yellowish cast that also appear foamy or frothy. Other symptoms include vomiting, weight loss, flatulence and a distended abdomen.

In order to correctly diagnose Giardia, veterinarians need several stool samples over a period of 7 to 10 days.

Treatment

The antibiotic metronidazole (brand name Flagyl) is the drug of choice for most Giardia infections. Veterinarians typically prescribe this drug in tablet form for five to seven days.

Another popular antibiotic for this type of infection is furazolidone. Vets use this drug for other protozoan infections as well. While the principal use of fenbendazole is to control specific types of worms, it's also sometimes useful to treat Giardia in cats.

Bear in mind also that humans can catch this from infected animals so you must treat it if your cat has it (hence I do not understand why a vet would say "most have it" and "most don't show symptoms". This is rubbish. SOME will show no symptoms but a lot will - runny, bloody diarrhoea)

Loopyloro
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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I have no doubt the creek he drinks out of has giardia cysts. My three cats have never shown any symptoms whatsoever (two never go outdoors). They are fed raw and have virtually smell free poo, which are not loose. I think here they treat only if there are symptoms because so many will test positive, according to the local vet as well as the traveling vet who comes up from Denver. This area has so many creeks, and any outdoor animal typically drinks from them is what they have told me. Maybe they develop a tolerance or immunity with prolonged exposure to the cysts? I've been told this by two vets and the vet technicians at the practice. I have no symptoms and drink well water and share my home with three cats.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> I have no doubt the creek he drinks out of has giardia cysts. My three cats have never shown any symptoms whatsoever (two never go outdoors). They are fed raw and have virtually smell free poo, which are not loose. I think here they treat only if there are symptoms because so many will test positive, according to the local vet as well as the traveling vet who comes up from Denver. This area has so many creeks, and any outdoor animal typically drinks from them is what they have told me. Maybe they develop a tolerance or immunity with prolonged exposure to the cysts? I've been told this by two vets and the vet technicians at the practice. I have no symptoms and drink well water and share my home with three cats.


Not sure if you are aware but raw feeding will MASK the symptoms of many diarrhoea related illnesses. A lot of dodgy breeders who know they have infected kittens will feed on a raw food diet to firm up the poops. This doesn't mean that the cat/kitten is not ill just that it is being hidden

Loopyloro
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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

LOOPYLORO said:


> Not sure if you are aware but raw feeding will MASK the symptoms of many diarrhoea related illnesses. A lot of dodgy breeders who know they have infected kittens will feed on a raw food diet to firm up the poops. This doesn't mean that the cat/kitten is not ill just that it is being hidden
> 
> Loopyloro
> x


This has been going on since long before they were fed raw. Cricket is 14 years old and healthy as a horse. His weight is ideal, his coat is shiny and soft, his activity level is high. He just had a complete check up with blood work and is in optimal health. I trust that I am doing the right thing. I've had this convo three times with the vets and am confident they know what they are talking about.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> This has been going on since long before they were fed raw. Cricket is 14 years old and healthy as a horse. His weight is ideal, his coat is shiny and soft, his activity level is high. He just had a complete check up with blood work and is in optimal health. I trust that I am doing the right thing. I've had this convo three times with the vets and am confident they know what they are talking about.


Sorry but I was only responding to what you had written originally -

I've seen Cricket drinking out of the creek and asked his vet about Giardia. He told me virtually every animal in this county will test positive for Giardia. They don't even test for it typically because of this, most animals show no symptoms according to this vet, at least where I live. 

As you put a little "confused" icon at the end of your sentence, I assumed you wanted more information. I have just given facts but if you are happy with what your vet said that is great

Loopyloro
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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

LOOPYLORO said:


> As you put a little "confused" icon at the end of your sentence, I assumed you wanted more information. I have just given facts but if you are happy with what your vet said that is great
> 
> Loopyloro
> x


Thanks for posting the facts which are important.  The confused icon was more of a question on if it's just looked at differently here.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Not sure if you are aware but raw feeding will MASK the symptoms of many diarrhoea related illnesses. A lot of dodgy breeders who know they have infected kittens will feed on a raw food diet to firm up the poops. This doesn't mean that the cat/kitten is not ill just that it is being hidden


That's one hell of a sweeping comment and gives the false impression that breeders who feed a raw diet are trying to hide something. It would be less effort and less costly to treat giardia with fenbendazole (which is the *current* accepted most effective treatment) than it would be to feed a raw diet. Panacur isn't even a prescription product so why would any breeder, even a 'dodgy' one, choose to mask a known problem with long term feeding regimes when they could sort it out with a cheap and effective OTC treatment?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My vet has me a bit worried as we suspect our new kitten (who we've now had for three weeks) may have this parasite. Obviously the only place she could have gotten it would have been at her breeders and the vet told me it is quite common for pedigree breeders to have this and knowingly not treat it? He has seen this many times locally with ped kittens and seemed to think that this was just another case of a kitten being missold in this way.





> Originally Posted by Mum View Post
> I just wanted to update this thread to say the second set of results came back clear today. So she doesn't have Giardia or several other parasites I can't even name.


So has this vet apologised for attempting to defame the breeder? I'm guessing not


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

havoc said:


> That's one hell of a sweeping comment and gives the false impression that breeders who feed a raw diet are trying to hide something. It would be less effort and less costly to treat giardia with fenbendazole (which is the *current* accepted most effective treatment) than it would be to feed a raw diet. Panacur isn't even a prescription product so why would any breeder, even a 'dodgy' one, choose to mask a known problem with long term feeding regimes when they could sort it out with a cheap and effective OTC treatment?


Sadly this DOES happen. I in no way suggested that breeders who feed raw are trying to hide something. Dodgy breeders DO feed on a raw diet to mask symptoms - especially of TF. Another method is to have them on a probiotic (or give some to a new owner) and say that if they have diarrhoea in the first few days of ownership it is down to stress of being taken from mummy etc. I am far from stupid but this one fooled me as kittens CAN get stressed easily and have a bit of diarrhoea when first going to a new home.

Loopyloro
X


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It costs pence per cat to get rid of giardia - a parasite they can pick up again in an instant drinking from a puddle if they're allowed outside.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

I know and yet there are still "reputable" breeders selling kittens that are ill.

My story - my two had diarrhoea within 2 days of bringing them home. I have no other cats and kittens only went out of my house to go to vets. I kept the breeder fully informed for the next 7 weeks while they were tested for bacterial problems (giardia, coccidia, cryptosporidium etc). Tests came back negative so had the PCR test for TF. When it came back positive I informed the breeder immediately. Long story short she's doing nothing. She now has 12 cats/new kittens and won't get them tested as she says they are showing no symptoms.

I believe she didn't know they had TF (I had to tell her what it was as she'd not heard of it before) but I DO believe she knew they had something because of the horrendous smell and diarrhoea and the fact that she gave me a probiotic for the first couple of days. 

Loopyloro
X


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

Was there evidence of runny poo, smell at the breeders when you bought the kittens?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I believe she didn't know they had TF (I had to tell her what it was as she'd not heard of it before) but I DO believe she knew they had something because of the horrendous smell and diarrhoea.


So did she feed raw? Your claim is that breeders deliberately mask problems by feeding raw. If she didn't then from what I've heard of TF the smell in the house would have been overpowering so why take kittens from there? Did you put a complaint in to the GCCF? Breeders are disciplined when it can be shown they have 'sold a kitten unfit for sale'. This catch all has traditionally been used in cases of ringworm but would apply in a case like this.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

rose said:


> Was there evidence of runny poo, smell at the breeders when you bought the kittens?


The house smelled of cats! I didn't see the litter tray. They could 100% not have got it from anywhere but from the breeder's house.

I'm just sad that in December there will be 7 people welcoming a new Bengal kitten and paying £450 and there is a high probability that some if not all will have TF.

Loopyloro
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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

havoc said:


> So did she feed raw? Your claim is that breeders deliberately mask problems by feeding raw. If she didn't then from what I've heard of TF the smell in the house would have been overpowering so why take kittens from there? Did you put a complaint in to the GCCF? Breeders are disciplined when it can be shown they have 'sold a kitten unfit for sale'. This catch all has traditionally been used in cases of ringworm but would apply in a case like this.


Yes and the house did smell bad but the kittens "looked well" and i only went in the living room - there were no litter trays there. Please tell me how to complain to the GCCF. I am unsure who to contact.

Loopyloro
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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's easy enough. Just Google GCCF and go to the website. The complaints procedure is laid out on there. I am assuming these are GCCF registered kittens - yes? No point complaining to the GCCF if they aren't.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> the house did smell bad but the kittens "looked well"


I believe TF doesn't cause a cat to lose condition. I've just realised you have Bengals, isn't it a known problem with the breed?


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

havoc said:


> It's easy enough. Just Google GCCF and go to the website. The complaints procedure is laid out on there. I am assuming these are GCCF registered kittens - yes? No point complaining to the GCCF if they aren't.


Yes they are GCCF registered otherwise I wouldn't be able to complain to them.

Thanks
Loopyloro
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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

havoc said:


> I believe TF doesn't cause a cat to lose condition. I've just realised you have Bengals, isn't it a known problem with the breed?


What do you mean "a known problem"? Yes Bengals can have it but so can non-pedigree cats. It is usually found in catteries or households where there are a lot of cats. It is getting more and more common but even now some vets haven't heard of it in cats. And yes both my kittens looked well and were eating and drinking and putting weight on.

Loopyloro
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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I believe Bengals are known for a high incidence of it. Whenever I've heard it discussed among breeders it's often a Bengal believed to be the source.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

From speaking to breeders online since my two were diagnosed, I believe that around 30% of Bengals are thought to have TF but I think more recently the incidence in other breeds such as Ragdolls (and non-pedigree) has also escalated. I wish I knew then what I know now about TF.

I don't feel able to offer any advice to lots of people with problems with their cats on this forum but I have certainly learned a lot in the past 9 weeks about TF. I would not wish my worst enemy to have to go through it.

Loopyloro
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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have certainly learned a lot in the past 9 weeks about TF. I would not wish my worst enemy to have to go through it.


I do feel for you. It needn't be a 9 week problem though and it's vets which are to blame for much of that misery for not including it in initial testing. Most of that time was through lack of diagnosis. You are far from alone in that. I still can't work out if it's ignorance on their part or a more fiscal motive.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

havoc said:


> I do feel for you. It needn't be a 9 week problem though and it's vets which are to blame for much of that misery for not including it in initial testing. Most of that time was through lack of diagnosis. You are far from alone in that. I still can't work out if it's ignorance on their part or a more fiscal motive.


Oddly enough the vet mentioned TF after another vet had prescribed amoxicillin drops (poo firmed up for a couple days then bloody diarrhoea again). However he said he didn't think it was TF so poop was sent for bacterial testing. By the time I got to the positive result for TF, 7 weeks had passed. If I knew of TF back then I would most definitely have demanded they test for it at the start.

Anyway on a good note - one more capsule tomorrow and that's it. I'll send off another sample in about 2 weeks time to check the TF has gone (fingers crossed) and hopefully that will be it.

Loopyloro
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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

havoc said:


> So has this vet apologised for attempting to defame the breeder? I'm guessing not


I haven't spoken to that particular male vet since actually. He made this face  and I left the appointment feeling foolish which is why i asked here if it was something that can be missed easily by a breeder. I couldn't rationalise that it could ever be ever ignored intentionally. My kitten is very well socialised and everything we hoped she would be I am very grateful to the breeder for raising her so well.

Over the phone (vet only results policy) I've been dealing with the most experienced vet who I am more familiar with and over the years she has treated many of my animals even my hamster. I've asked to see only her from now on unless it is an emergency of course. Last time it was a last minute appointment and he was just covering.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I keep hearing more and more about giardia and TF in pedigree cats.. I understand how its all transmitted but how did giardia get in, in the first place 

Few months ago I had my breeding queen who had kittens at the time tested as she kept getting the runs within a two week period ok one day runny the next ... It was not food change as she hadn't had anything different ... At first I put it down to her being away from the kittens as they were 13 week and the first runny bum was a few days after leaving them ... Ummmmmmm. She had gone out to stud with this litter and three weeks into het pregnancy she has bad diaria rah . ABs given and everything was fine within a few days never thought anymore about if ... Fast forward five months the test tested positive giardia , all the kittens had to be tested and all my adult cats were also tested .. All neg phew ... So the only place she could have picked it up was stud ... The only saving grace was am super clean with all my cats and my queen only uses her own litter .... Lucky for me the kittens didnt sell until they were 17/18 weeks so I knew they did not have the parasite cos of testing .. But if they had gone earlier and my queen shown signs much later I would never had know 

So yes it is possible the breeder didnt know or was putting runny bums down to something else


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

The difference being - now the breeder knows about it, she refuses to test and treat (probably due to cost) saying she has no signs in any of her cats or kittens. My 2 most DEFINITELY got TF from her (probably their mum) and as TF can eventually show no symptoms after around 2 years, she is simply burying her head in the sand and hoping it will go away. 

The only time she offered anything was 2 hours before I was going to my vets to pick up the ronidazole. She said if I wasn't happy to take them back to her and she'd give me my money back. Too late now - I'd had them for 7 weeks and done all the hard work so to speak and spent out on them. Plus I love them to bits and couldn't take them back. She didn't have the decency to offer to pay my vet fees and in my opinion she should be getting her 12 tested straight away. 

Since all of this happened, and through speaking with another breeder, I have found out that a while back she tried selling her stud Bengal on Pets4home website to ANY breeder not judt Bengal and she has a bad name but I didn't know any of this at the time.

Loopyloro
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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

LOOPYLORO said:


> The difference being - now the breeder knows about it, she refuses to test and treat (probably due to cost) saying she has no signs in any of her cats or kittens. My 2 most DEFINITELY got TF from her (probably their mum) and as TF can eventually show no symptoms after around 2 years, she is simply burying her head in the sand and hoping it will go away.
> 
> The only time she offered anything was 2 hours before I was going to my vets to pick up the ronidazole. She said if I wasn't happy to take them back to her and she'd give me my money back. Too late now - I'd had them for 7 weeks and done all the hard work so to speak and spent out on them. Plus I love them to bits and couldn't take them back. She didn't have the decency to offer to pay my vet fees and in my opinion she should be getting her 12 tested straight away.
> 
> ...


Well that's a breeder that's just does not give a sh!t .... The testing on my cats has cost me a bomb most I can get back from insurance but to be honest the money dose not bother me the health of my cats/kittens do ...

I could go back to the stud owner and kick off big time but its not worth it. it's a lesson learnt plus I don't have to go out to stud again really unless I want something different ..

I would put I complaint into the GCCF about the breeder


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I understand how its all transmitted but how did giardia get in, in the first place


It's pretty common in other animals and birds, been a known issue with pigeons for a long time. That's why I say an animal could be infected from drinking from a puddle. Dog mess you'd avoid but bird poo less obvious. You probably tread in loads of it without knowing.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> (vet only results policy)


What exactly do you mean by this? If you paid for the testing you are entitled to a copy of the results. The vet cannot refuse. Some vets are arrogant enough to believe otherwise but a Subject Access Request usually puts them right.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> It's pretty common in other animals and birds, been a known issue with pigeons for a long time. That's why I say an animal could be infected from drinking from a puddle. Dog mess you'd avoid but bird poo less obvious. You probably tread in loads of it without knowing.


Thanks for that havoc ... I have foot dips before I enter my cattery and different clothes ... OCD but when DD was so poorly I don't take any risks now ..

So for Rosie to get giardia I was I bit Peedoff lol


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Yeah you'd be annoyed but it's only a big problem because vets and ignorance make it so. If someone buys a kitten and it needs wormed a couple of weeks later nobody makes a big deal because everyone has heard of roundworms and knows the treatment. The reason Giardia and TF have become such a widespread problem is because they are seen as exotic and dramatic and because there is a blame culture surrounding them so the less confident breeders react with denial. The comments from the OP's vet at the start of this post are a prime example. Any of us could get either in our households without being at fault in any way. Some of us are experienced, knowledgeable and confident enough to know we'd just deal with it. Roll on the day when every breeder feels that way and every vet runs a full panel of tests on an initial visit instead of putting owners through hell for weeks first.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> Yeah you'd be annoyed but it's only a big problem because vets and ignorance make it so. If someone buys a kitten and it needs wormed a couple of weeks later nobody makes a big deal because everyone has heard of roundworms and knows the treatment. The reason Giardia and TF have become such a widespread problem is because they are seen as exotic and dramatic and because there is a blame culture surrounding them so the less confident breeders react with denial. The comments from the OP's vet at the start of this post are a prime example. Any of us could get either in our households without being at fault in any way. Some of us are experienced, knowledgeable and confident enough to know we'd just deal with it. Roll on the day when every breeder feels that way and every vet runs a full panel of tests on an initial visit instead of putting owners through hell for weeks first.


Totally agree ... If I had not asked for a full PCR they would have just giving her Abs again which would not have clear the problem ... I don't understand breeders that stick there head in the sand , but like you say lack of knowledge and confidences plays a big part


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

havoc said:


> Yeah you'd be annoyed but it's only a big problem because vets and ignorance make it so. If someone buys a kitten and it needs wormed a couple of weeks later nobody makes a big deal because everyone has heard of roundworms and knows the treatment. The reason Giardia and TF have become such a widespread problem is because they are seen as exotic and dramatic and because there is a blame culture surrounding them so the less confident breeders react with denial. The comments from the OP's vet at the start of this post are a prime example. Any of us could get either in our households without being at fault in any way. Some of us are experienced, knowledgeable and confident enough to know we'd just deal with it. Roll on the day when every breeder feels that way and every vet runs a full panel of tests on an initial visit instead of putting owners through hell for weeks first.


Totally agree. It's a pity that more breeders aren't as responsible as you. I understand that any breeder can have giardia or TF. This doesn't make them irresponsible. It is how they deal with the problem once it has come to light that separates the true breeders from the sh*t ones.

Loopyloro
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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

havoc said:


> I've just checked the datasheet and it does indeed now say 3 days. It did used to be 5. Frankly I don't think a week would be too long but cleaning and disinfecting the environment is equally, if not more, important. I'm not sure if Zeflora is effective. Dilute bleach is and a darn sight more economical.


My pregnant stay, Flo, had her babies in *2009* and back then it was definitely five days. The first couple of days were easy, they didn't know what was coming, but after that the little horrors got wise and would all run off in different directions. And there were SEVEN!! If it's now three days that's slightly easier. I literally had to have a list of their names and tick them off as I did them to avoid dong one twice and omitting another.


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

They have a policy that the vet nurses/assistants won't give you the results over the phone even if it's clear. The vet calls you back personally to discuss them and answer any questions. It means waiting around for a phonecall when they're busy with other clients but I didn't mind waiting and ill be able to pick up a printed copy of the results when I collect my next sample pot this weekend. I like to keep records so I asked this before the test was handed in initially.



havoc said:


> What exactly do you mean by this? If you paid for the testing you are entitled to a copy of the results. The vet cannot refuse. Some vets are arrogant enough to believe otherwise but a Subject Access Request usually puts them right.


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

havoc said:


> Yeah you'd be annoyed but it's only a big problem because vets and ignorance make it so. If someone buys a kitten and it needs wormed a couple of weeks later nobody makes a big deal because everyone has heard of roundworms and knows the treatment. The reason Giardia and TF have become such a widespread problem is because they are seen as exotic and dramatic and because there is a blame culture surrounding them so the less confident breeders react with denial. The comments from the OP's vet at the start of this post are a prime example. Any of us could get either in our households without being at fault in any way. Some of us are experienced, knowledgeable and confident enough to know we'd just deal with it. Roll on the day when every breeder feels that way and every vet runs a full panel of tests on an initial visit instead of putting owners through hell for weeks first.


I absolutely agree with you and wish they'd tested for TF initially as she would be receiving treatment by now if they had done this and found something. The chap I saw was quite arrogant and seemed certain it was a case of Giardia as he'd seen several cases recently and in his view the breeder was aware and shirking responsibility.

I asked here rather than running to the breeder with this 'professional' feedback as the last thing i wanted to do was offend her or upset her especially without any conclusive evidence. I know nothing about the other cases he was involved with that may have impaired his judgement and i only have his word that they are selling kittens knowingly with this parasite.

I would change vets but they are the best in the area and invest the most in their equipment and even have cat only clinics so they aren't stressed out in the presence of dogs. I've just learned from this experience that it's best to stick with and request where possible to see the vet you are familiar with and trust.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Hope I'm not repeating myself (sorry if I am it's my age) but giardia and TF often (but not always) go hand in hand so even if your vet is sure it is giardia, he also needs to test for TF

Loopyloro
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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

Don't worry I fully intend to. I'm picking up another pot on Saturday and handing it in on Monday. I'm guessing it is another three day sample they will want just like before... Deja vu


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

I think it can be very unfair when the breeder is blamed for these parasites when the new owner or other pets can easily bring it home to your cat/kitten. Obviously not intentionally but these parasites infect other animals and are easily transferred.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

flosskins said:


> I think it can be very unfair when the breeder is blamed for these parasites when the new owner or other pets can easily bring it home to your cat/kitten. Obviously not intentionally but these parasites infect other animals and are easily transferred.


Yes it is unfair to blame the breeder as things like this can get in ... But it's the breeders that have problems and don't do anything about it or try and Prevent it


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

fmtysskins said:


> I think it can be very unfair when the breeder is blamed for these parasites when the new owner or other pets can easily bring it home to your cat/kitten. Obviously not intentionally but these parasites infect other animals and are easily transferred.


In the case of my kitten there is only one possible source of origin for any parasites: the breeder. Where I differed in opinion with the first vet was with his assumption that this breeder would sell a sick kitten to me knowingly. That assumption alone from him has led me to favour the services of another vet.

As for my kitten no sooner did she leave her carrier but she visited the litter tray and did a bloody runy poo. This continued sporadically over the four weeks that weve now had her There is certainly something going on in that wee tum of hers and whether it is TF or not im not sure. We'll know for sure soon but the vet made it clear id have to make breeder aware if she is diagnosed with it for the sake of future litters. I haven't wanted to tell her we've been getting tests done as I've not wanted to upset her or offend her before I know for sure it isn't just IBS.

I dont believe in my heart she would have known and ignored this. If mum was cleaning her often any blood could have been missed and she otherwise acts completely normal. She was groomed by the other queens too as they were lovely cats and all treated every kitten like their own. All that really matters to us is that she gets better because we love her to bits and I know she hates treading in runy poo only to have me wash her mucky paws over the sink. I'm hoping its simply IBS or celiacs that way I won't have to give her meds as she'll think she's moved somewhere where people just medicate her poor thing!


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Mum said:


> In the case of my kitten there is only one possible source of origin for any parasites: the breeder. Where I differed in opinion with the first vet was with his assumption that this breeder would sell a sick kitten to me knowingly. That assumption alone from him has led me to favour the services of another vet.
> 
> As for my kitten no sooner did she leave her carrier but she visited the litter tray and did a bloody runy poo. This continued sporadically over the four weeks that weve now had her There is certainly something going on in that wee tum of hers and whether it is TF or not im not sure. We'll know for sure soon but the vet made it clear id have to make breeder aware if she is diagnosed with it for the sake of future litters. I haven't wanted to tell her we've been getting tests done as I've not wanted to upset her or offend her before I know for sure it isn't just IBS.
> 
> I dont believe in my heart she would have known and ignored this. If mum was cleaning her often any blood could have been missed and she otherwise acts completely normal. She was groomed by the other queens too as they were lovely cats and all treated every kitten like their own. All that really matters to us is that she gets better because we love her to bits and I know she hates treading in runy poo only to have me wash her mucky paws over the sink. I'm hoping its simply IBS or celiacs that way I won't have to give her meds as she'll think she's moved somewhere where people just medicate her poor thing!


I believe my breeder didn't know my kitrens had TF as when I told her, she had never even heard of it!!! However, my problem is that she refuses to get her current 2 litters and her adult cats (4 adults and 7 kittens) tested as she says they are not showing any symptoms and her vet said there's no point in testing for TF as there's a high chance it will be negative. To say I am angry is an understatement. She obviously is NOT an ethical breeder and I just pity the 7 new owners when they get their kittens in December as I am certain that at least some of them will have TF.

Sorry I should have also said that they also 100% got the TF from the breeder as my kittens have never been out and I have not had any other cats or kittens near them.
Loopyloro
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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

Just a little update to say Ember has finally got a diagnosis. It is TF. 

Its been a long process of elimination so its actually a relief to get the results today. Tomorrow she starts antibiotics and we have to take her in to be weighed again to get the most accurate dose for her.

They're giving me copies of results so breeder can read over them. I know she loves her cats so i imagine she will take these to her vets and get them treated accordingly but obviously my kitten is my main priority. We were going to buy a second before Christmas but the experience has put us off and since we dont ever want her to be reinfected by bringing another kitten home i think its fair to say she will be our one and only now!

We love the breed though and cant see ourselves ever having a house without a brit in it. She is the perfect family pet despite all her toilet troubles she has taken it all in her stride. Thank you to everyone for your help and advice in this thread. The food recommendations helped her keep her dignity while we waited for a diagnosis and have also made her symptoms more managable and for that I'm very thankful as I think it was stressful for her initially.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

So glad things are on the up for you and you have a poo free Xmas!


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm sorry but glad you have your diagnosis. I have to say having been there with two kittens having TF I know what you've been thru but I really am not surprised with the diagnosis. 

The ronidazole will get her sorted quickly so adios stinky poop yay!

Lisa
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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

LOOPYLORO said:


> I'm sorry but glad you have your diagnosis. I have to say having been there with two kittens having TF I know what you've been thru but I really am not surprised with the diagnosis.
> 
> The ronidazole will get her sorted quickly so adios stinky poop yay!
> 
> ...


loopyloro well done for suggesting this,thanks to you is been tested for.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> loopyloro well done for suggesting this,thanks to you is been tested for.


Aw thanks. All the symptoms were pointing at TF. It's the ONLY thing I know loads about cos I read up on it for my two like a woman possessed lol.

I'm just glad her kitty can now get treated. My two's bloody diarrhoea stopped on day two of the 14 day course so I'm sure it won't be long before Mum's house is also smelling of roses once again!

Loopyloro
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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Mum said:


> In the case of my kitten there is only one possible source of origin for any parasites: the breeder.


Not true.
The kitten - or one of her litter mates - may have been handled by another buyer who carried the parasite, either from one of their own pets, or from having the infection, themselves. For giardia is common in a great number of species, including **** sapiens. I am not sure about TF, but I do not believe it is specific to cats. So anyone visiting the breeder might have brought it in, maybe just days before you got your kitten.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> Not true.
> The kitten - or one of her litter mates - may have been handled by another buyer who carried the parasite, either from one of their own pets, or from having the infection, themselves. For giardia is common in a great number of species, including **** sapiens. I am not sure about TF, but I do not believe it is specific to cats. So anyone visiting the breeder might have brought it in, maybe just days before you got your kitten.


As far as TF is concerned I believe that's unlikely to the point of being virtually impossible. The organism lives for no more than an hour outside of the body. It can survive in warm, wet stool for several days but obviously the risk of a visitor introducing TF in that manner is negligible.


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

This makes interesting reading as Pankee had diarrhoea Fri night with blood in it (looked almost black). Nothing the next day or night but Mon morning wet stool, partially formed with red specks of, presumably, blood. 

Took him to the vet, she was about 12, apparently blood and giardia or TF cannot happen, he will have some other infection she cant possibly suggest what. After roughly handling him, showing no concern whatsoever, she weighed him, since his neutering two weeks ago he has gained nearly 500 grams, her response to this was "one of the scales must be off". What?? She then gave me no advice whatsoever with what may cause the worms, Advocate is the best wormer and covers all (though folks on here say thats incorrect) and if blood and loose stools continue I should take him in for more blood tests, third in 6 weeks. No need to test for TF as blood and loose stools are not a sign of that.

I was enraged with her/the vets by the end and swore to not go there again. I don't trust her diagnosis with this issue and don't think I would like to trust my precious pet to their care if this is how they handle matters.

Am I being unfair? Am I right in my thoughts on diarrhoea, blood in poo and possible worms or other parasites?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Blood in poo can be many thing ... Food related , worms or parasite 

TF has the worst symptoms ... Blood and runs most of the time 

Gardia can be unsystematic, ok one day but not the next ... Blood can accur normally fresh tho 

Food intolerants can cause both and if feeding raw , high bone content will cause bleeding 

I personally would change vet ...


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> Not true.
> The kitten - or one of her litter mates - may have been handled by another buyer who carried the parasite, either from one of their own pets, or from having the infection, themselves. For giardia is common in a great number of species, including **** sapiens. I am not sure about TF, but I do not believe it is specific to cats. So anyone visiting the breeder might have brought it in, maybe just days before you got your kitten.


TF is passed from kitten to kitten (or cat) usually via the litter tray and then grooming each other. Stress can "bring out" the symptoms e.g. bringing a new kitten to your home being away from its mum etc diarrhoea starts straight away. Humans cannot carry TF into another home. TF in cattle is a completely different strain/type so a person could not pass it on. They can only catch it from another infected cat/kitten.

Loopyloro
X


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's my understanding that TF can survive for some time as long as it doesn't dry out. I haven't seen anything from a trustworthy source which says cat to cat transmission via the litter tray is the only possible way it can be transferred although it will be by far the most common. There's been precious little research. 

I can see this turning into the same debate there was over FCoV. Exactly the same claims were made over transmission and yet middle aged, free roaming cats in single cat households can and do prove +ve.


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