# And so it starts!! (Hopefully!!)



## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I have put up threads before about my breeding plans. And thought you might be interested to know that things have started with Bess coming into season. I had my suspicions yesterday, but today Bess hasn't wanted me to examine her privates (and she's normally not bothered) which I thought might be a sign as well. So confirmed just now with a tissue test. 

The problem I'm going to have is knowing what are the best days for mating. My vet's obviously more than happy to take money off me for progesterone testing, but a number of breeders I've spoken to have found them to be inaccurate. I do have a breeding friend who lives a couple of miles away, and whos's offered for me to take Bess to hers. Her stud dog never shows any interest in bitches until they are ready - she reckoned he was more reliable than the progesterone test! 

The stud dog is also a reliable indicator according to his owner, so I think I'll go by what the dogs say. Oh, and the stud dogs owner has also given me some good tips as to how to be able to tell anyway. 

If people are interested I'll update this thread with progress. Must admit I'm equally excited and terrified!! 

On a sad note, that was the last show that I went to with Bess yesterday - possibly another 8 months before we're back in the ring and I'll miss it. But hopefully it won't be long after that when I have another little girl to show as well if things all go well! :thumbup1:


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

awesome!!!!
i'm excited For you!!!  :lol:


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

How exciting. Look forward to hearing about Bess's progress.

With many bitches, it is fairly obvious when they become receptive. They can become very flirtatious, even if you put your hand on their back!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> The problem I'm going to have is knowing what are the best days for mating. My vet's obviously more than happy to take money off me for progesterone testing, but a number of breeders I've spoken to have found them to be inaccurate. I do have a breeding friend who lives a couple of miles away, and whos's offered for me to take Bess to hers. Her stud dog never shows any interest in bitches until they are ready - she reckoned he was more reliable than the progesterone test!
> 
> The stud dog is also a reliable indicator according to his owner, so I think I'll go by what the dogs say. Oh, and the stud dogs owner has also given me some good tips as to how to be able to tell anyway.


Remember that progesterone testing is not only used to determine the optimum time for mating, but it may also help predict the whelping date.

I think the in-house progesterone tests are less reliable than the lab ones, so I guess people's experiences with them will depend on exactly which ones were carried out.

We have quite a few breeders who swear by them.

Good luck with her!  xxx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sweety said:


> How exciting. Look forward to hearing about Bess's progress.
> 
> With many bitches, it is fairly obvious when they become receptive. They can become very flirtatious, even if you put your hand on their back!


Bess flags her tail at any time when you rub her back. And if you go round that end with a brush she spreads her legs. I guess you could say she's always flirty, and that's my problem. Last season I was watching her closely, but I couldn't tell.



Shoshannah said:


> Remember that progesterone testing is not only used to determine the optimum time for mating, but it may also help predict the whelping date.
> 
> I think the in-house progesterone tests are less reliable than the lab ones, so I guess people's experiences with them will depend on exactly which ones were carried out.
> 
> ...


That's interesting. Perhaps they used inhouse ones.

Shoshannah, can I ask you a question? Because the stud is a carrier for PRA rcd4 (Bess is clear) I'll want to get any pups DNA tested and therefore microchipped before going to new homes. My vet said he'd only do that before they were 3 days old. A breeder I spoke to yesterday thought that was rubbish, as pups don't have enough bulk to keep chips in place at that age, and there's a greater risk of them coming out. She said she gets hers done at five weeks. The reasoning of my vet is that it can hurt the pups - I did have to fight to get him to chip Bess at three months, he wanted to wait until six months old! (I say 'he', but it's the whole practice).

Do you see a problem with chipping pups at five weeks?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> Bess flags her tail at any time when you rub her back. And if you go round that end with a brush she spreads her legs. I guess you could say she's always flirty, and that's my problem. Last season I was watching her closely, but I couldn't tell.
> 
> That's interesting. Perhaps they used inhouse ones.
> 
> ...


Not personally, no. Microchipping can be sore sometimes but it'll be sore in any age and I think the bigger the pups the easier it is to do safely. But that's just my two cents, maybe others think/know differently.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

i'll be mini-chipping any future toy breed litters at 10 weeks- you can chip a bunny, so i can't see the harm- but would agree that at 3 days there wouldn't be much for the chip to implant in...
bambi is fully grown and 3lbs- i'd guess your pups will be bigger than her at 5 weeks! she was done at 6 months because we were waiting on her growing a bit :lol: and had no idea about the mini-chip (if it was even available then)

(**obviously not as qualified to comment as shoshannah, but am now a qualified chipper- i did Grace that day and she was quite small, and another girl did her bunny!**)


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## Puppy Love (Jan 10, 2008)

Best of luck with your girl, hope all goes well! Which sire are you using?

With my last litter I had to DNA test the pups. I clearly marked/ribbon etc each pup to identify for the test. I then chipped my pups at 7+1/2 weeks. I felt that sooner than that was just too young.

Puppy Love


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Puppy Love said:


> Best of luck with your girl, hope all goes well! Which sire are you using?
> 
> With my last litter I had to DNA test the pups. I clearly marked/ribbon etc each pup to identify for the test. I then chipped my pups at 7+1/2 weeks. I felt that sooner than that was just too young.
> 
> Puppy Love


Thank you! I may well be picking your brains! . I'm using Bardonhill Floating Moon as the stud. He got his second ticket at SKC - really hoping he gets his third before pups are born! :thumbup1:

He's a beautiful boy, and a lovely laid back character. Best of all he's only 20 miles away. That wasn't taken into account when choosing a stud, but very useful!! He's five and has only sired three litters, but one of his daughters did very well at Crufts this year!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

What an exiting time, I hope all goes well for you.

I don't progesterone test either, I enquired at my vets for our last litter as the stud I was using was 150 miles away and Christmas was only a week off, so I wanted to be relatively sure of timing.
One vets said they would do it for me, but by the time the results were back the time would likely have passed. 
The other vet I use said they would do the test at £68 per test. They could also do an in house feather test, but it wasn't as reliable as the progesterone test.

In the end I decided to use my past experience and take her when I thought she was ready, we got a mating with a 20 minute tie. I took her back 48 hours later but the stud wasn't interested at all, fortunately the first mating took and 7 pups were the resulting litter.

I think in your position I would take up your friends offer of using her stud to test timing, there's nothing so reliable as a lusty stud dog!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

How exciting for you. I hope the mating goes well and you are able to judge the right day.
I have to say my first bitch I bred from was text book and we mated her on day 12 and 14 just because it seemed right. Second bitch did not stand till day 20 but the dog was not interested so I got her spayed. Third bitch was mated on day 2 much to my amazement. She had 7 to 10 day seasons so I decided the only thing to do was try from day 2 every other day and she was mated 3 times but was 63 days from the first mating.

Good luck with it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'll definitely be following this thread with interest! :thumbup:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I hope it all works out well for you I can't wait to see baby setters :001_tt1:. Dad's stunning as well just googled him.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

As you know, I did progesterone test, but I'm close enough to Idexx to be able to drive the bloods up there and have them processed to get an answer that day, so for me, it was worth it, just! Although madam chose to *peak* over the weekend. 

My own personal opinion, I wouldn't want Labrador or flatcoat sized pups chipped at 3 days old, they are so tiny, I couldn't imagine them having that big needle inserted in there. I know working spaniels are docked without chips, and then certificates issued later, there must be a way of marking pups that have been tested, or can you test them a bit later?

Forgot to say, good luck with everything, I know you've put a lot of thought into this litter.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> I hope it all works out well for you I can't wait to see baby setters :001_tt1:. Dad's stunning as well just googled him.


Thanks! He is, isn't he? And his temperament is lovely. Funnily enough I've known his owner since I first started showing and she's given me loads of advice!

I had a mentor helping me choose the stud, and I didn't know who she was suggesting until she got us together at a show! Being friends already makes it better!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> As you know, I did progesterone test, but I'm close enough to Idexx to be able to drive the bloods up there and have them processed to get an answer that day, so for me, it was worth it, just! Although madam chose to *peak* over the weekend.
> 
> My own personal opinion, I wouldn't want Labrador or flatcoat sized pups chipped at 3 days old, they are so tiny, I couldn't imagine them having that big needle inserted in there. I know working spaniels are docked without chips, and then certificates issued later, there must be a way of marking pups that have been tested, or can you test them a bit later?
> 
> Forgot to say, good luck with everything, I know you've put a lot of thought into this litter.


Thanks SL. I'm going to be speaking to another vet tomorrow which my local friend, who has been successfully breeding for years, recommends. I'll see what they say. I like my current vet's views on raw feeding (it's up to the owners), and they follow latest guidelines on vaccinations, but I have a few concerns about pregnancy and whelping care. These are the vets who didn't recognise a phantom pregnancy!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Today's update - I've registered Bess with a new vet who was recommended by the local breeder who's helping me. They'll do home visits to check the pups, and are happy to microchip 4-5 weeks old. Again with a home visit. Bess gets stressed going to the vets, so I'm prepared to pay the extra to minimise any disruption to her. 

I'm feeling happier as even the receptionist at the new place seemed clued up! :thumbup1:


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## Chloef (Feb 23, 2011)

sounds like you've found a good vet, I wouldn't want to microchip pups at a few days old...best of luck with everything


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I was Going to suggest a different vet or a mobile implanter to come to you at about 5 weeks.
Gosh 6 months. Dillon was chipped at 8 weeks at just 1.6 kilos. 
Wishing you and bess the very best .


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> Shoshannah, can I ask you a question? Because the stud is a carrier for PRA rcd4 (Bess is clear) I'll want to get any pups DNA tested and therefore microchipped before going to new homes. My vet said he'd only do that before they were 3 days old. A breeder I spoke to yesterday thought that was rubbish, as pups don't have enough bulk to keep chips in place at that age, and there's a greater risk of them coming out. She said she gets hers done at five weeks. The reasoning of my vet is that it can hurt the pups - I did have to fight to get him to chip Bess at three months, he wanted to wait until six months old! (I say 'he', but it's the whole practice).
> 
> Do you see a problem with chipping pups at five weeks?


Mylo was chipped within 48 hours of birth because it has to be done at the same time as the dock to fulfill the legal side of the docking. As you know I have a breed that is still widely docked so they must all be chipped at that age. I haven't heard of anyone having a problem with it. I could feel the chip when he was very small but that soon went as he grew. 
I have spoken to breeders about this and they all say that almost invariably the pups sleep through the actual procedure at 2 days old and are more distressed when by being taken from the mother to be put in the car for the journey to the vets. No personal experience though.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> I hope it all works out well for you I can't wait to see baby setters :001_tt1:. Dad's stunning as well just googled him.


I saw him at Bath and he is an absolute beaut. He was only a couple of benches up from Bess so saw them 'together' and you could just see how fab the pairing would be. So very excited for you Trish and expected a blow by blow account of this journey.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Exciting times, good luck


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> Mylo was chipped within 48 hours of birth because it has to be done at the same time as the dock to fulfill the legal side of the docking. As you know I have a breed that is still widely docked so they must all be chipped at that age. I haven't heard of anyone having a problem with it. I could feel the chip when he was very small but that soon went as he grew.
> I have spoken to breeders about this and they all say that almost invariably the pups sleep through the actual procedure at 2 days old and are more distressed when by being taken from the mother to be put in the car for the journey to the vets. No personal experience though.


I've checked the vet will come out to me to chip them. I don't fancy taking them to the vets if I don't have too!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

They don't have to be chipped at the time of docking to comply, but they do have to be chipped before being sold docked, just to clarify. You do have the option of allowing them to grow a bit before having them microchipped, apols for the slightly off topic post, but thought it worth noting for anyone else reading.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> Thank you! I may well be picking your brains! . I'm using* Bardonhill Floating Moon *as the stud. He got his second ticket at SKC - really hoping he gets his third before pups are born! :thumbup1:
> 
> He's a beautiful boy, and a lovely laid back character. Best of all he's only 20 miles away. That wasn't taken into account when choosing a stud, but very useful!! He's five and has only sired three litters, but one of his daughters did very well at Crufts this year!


I just googled him, OMG he is stunning.
Good Luck to you and Bess, I know you have been working towards this.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They don't have to be chipped at the time of docking to comply, but they do have to be chipped before being sold docked, just to clarify. You do have the option of allowing them to grow a bit before having them microchipped, apols for the slightly off topic post, but thought it worth noting for anyone else reading.


As this is a positive thread about breeding I think its useful info for any 'lurkers'.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They don't have to be chipped at the time of docking to comply, but they do have to be chipped before being sold docked, just to clarify. You do have the option of allowing them to grow a bit before having them microchipped, apols for the slightly off topic post, but thought it worth noting for anyone else reading.


I don't know the rules as Mylo is my first since the docking ban I was just going off what it says on my certificates which are in two parts - the chip and the dock. The chip only has one vet signature but the dock has two, the vet that docked and the vet that chipped and the breeders signature regarding the working parent bit. On the dock one the vet has signed the statement that says he has docked the dog with microchip number XXXXXXXXXXXX and this was witnessed by the other vet. There isn't a different statement to sign so it must have been done that way around just because of the wording of the statement on the certificate.

Edit - Just looked up the Council of Docked Breeds Forms and it is the same as mine but there is a second page which only has the section to use if the pup is chipped on another day sometime after the dock. As it wasn't relevant in my case they didn't give it to me.

Massive apologies for the hijack Bessiedog.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Thought it might be interesting to show these pictures! The first is a picture of me at Southern Counties last Friday. She didn't get placed, but it's a nice stand. The second is hopefully the sire. As you can see, Bess is light on feathering, which is one thing I'm hoping to get into her line from Woody.

Bess (aka Snuggler Honey Pie over Smokey Water)



Woody (aka Bardonhill Floating Moon into Glenaine JW Sh CM)


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

you know i think your bess-y-girl is absolutely stunning... but that boy  :001_wub:
:001_wub:

these pups are going to be simply breathtaking! i wish i'd chose a setter as my next now!!! :incazzato: 

(love bess' KC name btw- bet its funny hearing judges etc call her! :lol: )


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> you know i think your bess-y-girl is absolutely stunning... but that boy  :001_wub:
> :001_wub:
> 
> these pups are going to be simply breathtaking! i wish i'd chose a setter as my next now!!! :incazzato:
> ...


My breeder was really upset I didn't use Honey Pie as her pet name.  I'm just not sure what response I'd have got yelling it out across the fields! 

The boys do have much heavier feathering, which is why bitches don't often win against dogs for Best of Breed. I'd love to keep a dog from the litter, but I've been persuaded that's a heap of trouble.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Thought it might be interesting to show these pictures! The first is a picture of me at Southern Counties last Friday. She didn't get placed, but it's a nice stand. The second is hopefully the sire. As you can see, Bess is light on feathering, which is one thing I'm hoping to get into her line from Woody.
> 
> Bess (aka Snuggler Honey Pie over Smokey Water)
> 
> ...


Both are gorgeous, but you know what, I much prefer the lighter feathering of your Bessie


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Fabulous pics, they are going to make stunning babies.

Well done on that stand by the way it looks damn near perfect to me, in my opinion you have got Bess' rear angulation much better than in the pic of the b/f


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> Both are gorgeous, but you know what, I much prefer the lighter feathering of your Bessie


Her feathers are a lot finer - there are actually more than the picture shows. I think she would benefit from a little fuller feathering. But the point about breeding is hopefully ending up with something in the middle!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I notice you are standing there too....how did you find that as opposed to the kneel. My mum sent me a pic of the GSP veteran class from Friday at SoCos and every single handler in the class was kneeling for the stack. David always kneels with Mylo. Do whatever feels best xxx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> I notice you are standing there too....how did you find that as opposed to the kneel. My mum sent me a pic of the GSP veteran class from Friday at SoCos and every single handler in the class was kneeling for the stack. David always kneels with Mylo. Do whatever feels best xxx


Not great, but I thought I'd give it a try. About a third of the class were kneeling. Didn't get us placed!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Update. 

Took Bess to see my local breeder friend today as it's day 8. She's not ready yet. 

Arranged for a blood test 9am Monday - for £38 decided to go with science. . They do inhouse testing so I'll get the results within two hours. 

Then spoke to stud owner. She said some interesting things:

1. I can go everyday if I want to, to try and get a successful mating (when both dogs feel they're ready - probably phrased badly)

2. The breeder of the stud has been informed, has looked at Bess's pedigree and she thinks they are a very good match

3. There are two or three people already interested in the pups from her end. 

All in all an interesting day, and I'm looking forward to next week.

Please cross you fingers that Woody gets hid third CC at Three Counties on Sunday!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

awww well done! They are amazing colours, so vibrant!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Good luck with it all. 

Just wondering, with so much feathering on the stud, how can he pee without wetting his feathers? Does he not smell of wee?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> Good luck with it all.
> 
> Just wondering, with so much feathering on the stud, how can he pee without wetting his feathers? Does he not smell of wee?


Not sure- I'll have to ask! . He'll be bathed regularly for shows.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I wouldnt have thought so, I know a few heavily feathered male Goldens (same reasons as IS) and none of them smell like pee or owners have mentioned it. 

It is however why you rarely see white male Chinese Crested Powderpuffs in the ring


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Something I've thought , seeing dogs in the 'stacked ' pose , is that it looks as if it could be putting a strain on the back muscles with the hind legs being extended backwards. Is this ever a problem ?
I'm so excited about the prospective litter - good luck and a blow by blow account please from Day 1 !


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

On the coat/pee thing, I've actually seen setters with pegs holding back the feathering at shows, to ensure they don't pee on their own coat before they go in the show ring. Obviously they have to remember to take the pegs out as well


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Something I've thought , seeing dogs in the 'stacked ' pose , is that it looks as if it could be putting a strain on the back muscles with the hind legs being extended backwards. Is this ever a problem ?
> I'm so excited about the prospective litter - good luck and a blow by blow account please from Day 1 !


It's a natural stance for them. The conformation has to be right though. Often catch Bess in that position naturally - mainly when she's alert and watching something.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Aahh, yes , I see it there ! Sometimes I've seen the pose a little exaggerated and it can look uncomfortable. As you say if the conformations right it's ok.


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## Barefootgirl (Sep 6, 2013)

How exciting for you! Our young setters owner wants to breed from her in a year or so, so we will be out campaigning her to do as well as we can....hopefully we will be sorted before you are back on the scene with a gorgeous new mini-Bess!!!!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

SusieRainbow said:


> Something I've thought , seeing dogs in the 'stacked ' pose , is that it looks as if it could be putting a strain on the back muscles with the hind legs being extended backwards. Is this ever a problem ?
> I'm so excited about the prospective litter - good luck and a blow by blow account please from Day 1 !


In theory a dog is stacked in their most natural balanced stance. When people move the feet they should be moving them into the best position for the dog to be stood comfortably and are usually just making them level so from the side you can't see the far leg in breeds your not supposed to. Some people move them into a position to cover up faults of course and then it won't be natural but even then it is only for a few minutes, not even that sometimes. I walk Mylo into his stand as he just does it completely naturally. If he sees something that alerts him and stands in the house or garden or on walks etc he stands in exactly the position he is in the ring. I would say that any dog that needs to be stood in such a way that it put strain on their back is so badly put together that it shouldn't be in the ring in the first place and this would show up as soon as they started moving.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Took Bess for her blood test this morning. Different vets, but she was excited and playful in the waiting room (she went to a puppy party once at the last vets - big mistake! She now thinks every dog coming in should play with her!).

But in the consulting room she folded herself up, shaking like a leaf!  I put her in a stand (very useful as she's used to being touched by a judge in that position), and she let the vet examine her, take her temp etc. 

The vet thought she might be ready today.

I was offered two blood tests - one, which the vet said was very unreliable, would give me a result in two hours. The other needed to go to their lab, and I'd have the result by lunchtime tomorrow. That, she said, was the reliable test. The tests were exactly the same price!  So I opted for the reliable one.

Spoke to the breeder after, and we agreed we'd wait for the results of the test. If I take her today and she's not ready, she might not be comfortable with the stud, and it could put her off for a return visit. 

Looks like it's getting close now though! :thumbup1:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Will keep all crossed for you and Bess.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

Ah how exciting for you. 
I travelled 50 miles for Sandy's stud and the little madam wasn't ready until day 21!!! She mated on day 21 and 23. 
By August hopefully there will be some little mini reds running around the place!


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Oh wow gorgeous dogs! I've always wanted a Red Setter! Beautiful!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Vet's just rung with the result of the premate test. Apparently she's ovulating now, and advised to mate her today or tomorrow. So we're going down later this afternoon. Keep fingers crossed!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Oohh, everything crossed for you and Bess ( and her suitor ! ) I bet you feel quite emotional ?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Oohh, everything crossed for you and Bess ( and her suitor ! ) I bet you feel quite emotional ?


I'm actually shaking! 

Partly with excitement, but mostly with concern about Bess, and hoping it will be okay for her. The stud owner is very experienced and will be checking her to make sure she's ready - I really don't want her hurt!

Hopefully this thread will make interesting reading for others thinking about breeding - it's already a heap of stress and worry, and pups aren't even in sight yet!


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Best of luck at the stud owners house


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Good luck for this afternoon.

I'm sure all will be well. x


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> I'm actually shaking!
> 
> Partly with excitement, but mostly with concern about Bess, and hoping it will be okay for her. The stud owner is very experienced and will be checking her to make sure she's ready - I really don't want her hurt!
> 
> Hopefully this thread will make interesting reading for others thinking about breeding - it's already a heap of stress and worry, and pups aren't even in sight yet!


Very much how I felt when my daughter had herfirst steady boyfriend really.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Very much how I felt when my daughter had herfirst steady boyfriend really.


That made me smile!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

It's true though ! I was so worried about her getting her heart broken. 
I know Bess won't have any emotional traumas from this but I really do know what you mean.
Let us know how the honeymoon goes.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Didn't work. Stud owner thinks it might still be a little early, so we're trying again tomorrow. At least Bess like him!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Didn't work. Stud owner thinks it might still be a little early, so we're trying again tomorrow. At least Bess like him!


Well, that's half the battle !


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

My heart was in my mouth from the post about taking her this afternoon and just got faster and faster. Sorry today wasn't the day but at least I can breathe now. I really don't know how you are coping cos I am struggling to contain myself just reading about it.
Ready and waiting for the next installment tomorrow.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> My heart was in my mouth from the post about taking her this afternoon and just got faster and faster. Sorry today wasn't the day but at least I can breathe now. I really don't know how you are coping cos I am struggling to contain myself just reading about it.
> Ready and waiting for the next installment tomorrow.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:




At least I'm more relaxed about it now. Gave Bess an appetite - she came home and ate all her dinner in one go! 

I just don't know how people get on with a maiden bitch and maiden dog - especially if the stud owner doesn't know what they're doing either! She's so knowledgable about both dogs and bitches that it gives you confidence.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Good luck BessieDog


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Good luck - fingers crossed for a successful mating soon !


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Good luck for today, will be thinking of you and Bess xx


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

Good luck for today!!

I've been following this thread and it's great to read about someone breeding dogs so responsibly  

Xx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

No joy again! But Bess really loves Woody - she was flirting like mad today, and they had a good play together. 

Bess is shorter, and he can't get the angle. Also, Bess tends to drop her back legs as he gets into position. The stud owner has got a friend coming tomorrow to help, and she's going to tie Woody's hair in pigtails so she can have a better view of what's going on. Hard under all that hair. She thinks we've still got two or three days though. 

So keep fingers crossed that its third time lucky!! 

I keep wondering how all these accidental pregnancies happen!! :


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Let's hope tomorrow's the day! She's keeping you guessing isn't she!!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Let's hope tomorrow's the day! She's keeping you guessing isn't she!!


She certainly is!! And I thought this was the easy bit!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Aww. shame ! Sounds like they;re both willing , so hopefully success tomorrow. It;s a good job they don't live opposite ends of the country.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Aww. shame ! Sounds like they;re both willing , so hopefully success tomorrow. It;s a good job they don't live opposite ends of the country.


That's what I keep saying! . It's only 40 mins away.


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## Puppy Love (Jan 10, 2008)

Good luck for 2moro!! 

I have also just mated my show bitch, so fingers crossed!!!

Puppy Love x


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Puppy Love said:


> Good luck for 2moro!!
> 
> I have also just mated my show bitch, so fingers crossed!!!
> 
> Puppy Love x


Thanks! I saw that on another thread. Hopefully we'll be able to share notes!!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Any news? Keeping a check on this thread is kinda interfering with basic housework


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> Any news? Keeping a check on this thread is kinda interfering with basic housework


Sorry! . Went this morning then had to dash off fr a hospital appointment so only just had a chance to update. 

Well, Bess was trying to turn him on today (not that she had too!). After reading about how some matings need to be forced its lovely to see her so actively welcoming his attentions, and growing with confidence daily.

Anyway, they made it. But only tied for a couple of minutes. Bess is still a novice, so was trying to sit down. The stud owner was holding her up - which meant she was taking his weight as well. Impossible to turn them (her friend had an emergency with her dog, so wasn't able to come to help).

We're going to give it another go tomorrow.

While Woody went in to sleep it off (typical male!) she let her 7 month old bitch puppy out. Bess had a lovely game with her in the garden. Made me realise she doesn't get many opportunities to play like that, and how much she'd love another dog around. :thumbsup:


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

It sounds like things are going really well :thumbup:

I've been checking this thread for updates all day, it's almost as exciting as when I was waiting for news of a mating we were getting a pup from :biggrin:


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> It sounds like things are going really well :thumbup:
> 
> I've been checking this thread for updates all day, it's almost as exciting as when I was waiting for news of a mating we were getting a pup from :biggrin:


Times like this I love PF - am excited and want to tell people about it, but most of my friends wouldn't understand!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Well, that sounds more promising. This beats Mills and Boon any day !


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Woo hoo.....fab update report. 

As for the tie, a few minutes is a few minutes. If you can get pregnant from kissing then that may well have been enough  If not she has had some practice and it will all be wonderful next time.
I feel so proud and they are not even my dogs


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

In all the excitement I forgot to say....hope all was well at hospital. 

(If it was about your back you should have asked them to strap a hefty board to it then you can take your turn at holding the dogs up tomorrow  )


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

How exciting! I've been following updates every day as well - I so can't wait to play with those dozen gorgeous red wiggly pups.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

How exciting!

The length of the tie is really not important. The dog normally impregnates the bitch in the first thirty seconds of mating.

I had a PRT stud dog mate a bitch and not tie at all, but she had pups.

And, it is very normal for a bitch to become playful, even hyper, after she's been mated.

This sounds very good to me.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> In all the excitement I forgot to say....hope all was well at hospital.
> 
> (If it was about your back you should have asked them to strap a hefty board to it then you can take your turn at holding the dogs up tomorrow  )


Cheers! No, it was about an annoying but not serious problem, but for which I've got to go back and have an unpleasant sounding test.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Never got a tie with Tau either, and didn't think she was pregnant, until she started to grow  

Good luck for today!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> Cheers! No, it was about an annoying but not serious problem, but for which I've got to go back and have an unpleasant sounding test.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Looking for a iddy biddy update......though a massive one would be even better


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> Looking for a iddy biddy update......though a massive one would be even better


Are we just a bit impatient 

Off to the pub, hope to see an update by the time I'm back!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

The suspense is killing me !


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

No luck today! 

It was very, very hot, and neither dog had much energy. Woody kept lying down to cool off and get his breath back. I was there for three and a half hours, and they had a lot of half hearted attempts, but nothing really serious.

We kept them in the shade, but it was still scorching.

I'm going back tomorrow afternoon - I think the forecast is for cooler weather.

Hot dogs!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

They are doing it deliberately....or not


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

How exciting!  Hope all has gone well today

Bess is absolutely stunning 

I am a real novice when it comes to these things and on the basis of



BessieDog said:


> Hopefully this thread will make interesting reading for others thinking about breeding


Can I ask a wee question 



BessieDog said:


> Because the stud is a carrier for PRA rcd4 (Bess is clear) I'll want to get any pups DNA tested and therefore microchipped before going to new homes


Could you explain the above  

I would've thought if the dog was a carrier he shouldn't be used for breeding  and how will having the pups DNA tested help?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> How exciting!  Hope all has gone well today
> 
> Bess is absolutely stunning
> 
> ...


There are three types of result

Affected - can never be bred from and may develop the disease

Carrier- will never develop the disease, but could pass it on if mated with another carrier

Clear - will never develop the disease.

From a clear/ carrier mating approx 50% of offspring could be carriers. No problem to the offspring, but they must not be mated to the carriers.

If only clears were used it would weaken the gene pool.

The additional problem with PRA red 4 is that a test for it in IS only became available in 2011. So there are a lot of carriers and affecteds around now, simply because they weren't identifiable until fairly recently.

If no one used carriers, it would greatly lessen the number of otherwise suitable stud dogs available.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Thank you  

I know in Labs you don't (or shouldn't need to may be a better way of describing it) breed from any dog that has tested positive for it BUT I would imagine the available gene pool is huge compared to Setters! 

I couldn't work out how the pups would be OK & not be able to develop the disease  (genetics / breeding is a whole very new world to me!) 

It was never something I was really that interested in (apart from obviously checking parents when getting pups / having a look at their pedigrees etc) until I got Maisie (who as you may know was a former breeding bitch) and it now fascinates me!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> Thank you
> 
> I know in Labs you don't (or shouldn't need to may be a better way of describing it) breed from any dog that has tested positive for it BUT I would imagine the available gene pool is huge compared to Setters!
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean by tested positive. If it's the same as affected, I agree. But a carrier is only a problem if mated to another carrier. Which only means that health testing is vital, so you know you aren't mating two carriers.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Thank you
> 
> *I know in Labs you don't (or shouldn't need to may be a better way of describing it) breed from any dog that has tested positive for it BUT I would imagine the available gene pool is huge compared to Setters!*
> 
> ...


There's no reason why you shouldn't breed affected as if bred to a clear, then no affected pups will be produced, then you can go on to test all pups, and then can hopefully breed that pup on to a clear and create some clear pups... Obviously common sense, having all pups tested etc...


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Day 16, and last chance saloon. Both dogs had more energy as it was cooler, and Bess was very up for it, but he was only making half hearted attempts until we were going in to have a cup of tea. I don't know whether he thought we were taking her home, but he caught her going up the steps. 

We were laughing saying he couldn't possibly do it at that angle, but he obviously could and did! There was no tie though. 

So, now it's fingers crossed until its time to have her scanned. 

I do hope it's been successful - he's got such a lovely temperament, and very gentle like Bess. Temperament wise the pups would be lovely! :thumbsup:


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Fingers and paws crossed


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Same here !


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I don't envy you the wait to find out if she's taken or not, it's bad enough being a spectator :laugh: 

Everything crossed here!!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Good luck with everything!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Just got back from the bright lights of 'Brizzle'. The in-laws were down from Cheshire on some kind of city break (not sure Bristol would be my first choice but ho-hum) so met them for dinner. Been driving OH mad all the way back cos I wanted to get home for the news.

Fab that they managed it again. I have a good feeling in my water. How long do we all have to wait for the scan????

Baby Bessie's :001_wub::001_wub::001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I find the next 4-5 weeks the longest ever, I'm constantly looking for signs and I know you will be too.

I've got my fingers crossed for you


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> Just got back from the bright lights of 'Brizzle'. The in-laws were down from Cheshire on some kind of city break (not sure Bristol would be my first choice but ho-hum) so met them for dinner. Been driving OH mad all the way back cos I wanted to get home for the news.
> 
> Fab that they managed it again. I have a good feeling in my water. How long do we all have to wait for the scan????
> 
> Baby Bessie's :001_wub::001_wub::001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


I think it's about 23 days that you can scan just to confirm pregnancy.



Darth said:


> I find the next 4-5 weeks the longest ever, I'm constantly looking for signs and I know you will be too.
> 
> I've got my fingers crossed for you


I'm already finding that!  She gets phantoms after a season anyway, so I won't read too much into any signs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lilylass said:


> Thank you
> 
> I know in Labs you don't (or shouldn't need to may be a better way of describing it) breed from any dog that has tested positive for it BUT I would imagine the available gene pool is huge compared to Setters!
> 
> ...


Just to clear this up, but it's the same in Labradors, there are a number of genetic tests, and for me personally, depending on the condition, I would still consider a carrier status depending on what I wanted from a litter. For CNM, which you will know most pups don't survive into adulthood, I wouldn't consider a carrier, partly because it's such a scarce condition, there's no need to consider carriers, but for gPRA and EIC, a carrier status wouldn't particularly worry me. Also, it is possible to breed clear from an affected status, not something I think I would do, but if someone had an affected status dog, and wanted to breed clear, that is exactly what the tests are there for. Affected status does not mean the dog even suffers from the condition, something like gPRA for example, in Labradors is late onset, ie most dogs that are affected status will never live long enough to develop the condition.

Good luck Bessiedog, not easy re the scanning, given that she's had phantoms previously you obviously don't want to let another one go on too long, so I'm keeping all crossed for little red squiggly things on that scan!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Good luck Bessiedog, not easy re the scanning, given that she's had phantoms previously you obviously don't want to let another one go on too long, so I'm keeping all crossed for little red squiggly things on that scan!


I'm already feeling guilty, as last time, as soon as her season finished I started using herbal tablets that successfully stopped the phantom. I can't give them to her this time, obviously. If she's not pregnant then she'll start to suffer a phantom unnecessarily. .

But her phantom symptoms have all been physical, not behavioural. So I'll be looking for different behaviours to give me a clue.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> I'm already feeling guilty, as last time, as soon as her season finished I started using herbal tablets that successfully stopped the phantom. I can't give them to her this time, obviously. If she's not pregnant then she'll start to suffer a phantom unnecessarily. .
> 
> But her phantom symptoms have all been physical, not behavioural. So I'll be looking for different behaviours to give me a clue.


Keep your chin up, it's all for a fabulous reason, and in a few months you will hopefully have Bess running around the garden with her daughter


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Why do/did you want to breed, out of interest?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

GoldenShadow said:


> Why do/did you want to breed, out of interest?


I want to have a puppy for myself, and one which I can show. The mating between Bess and Woody should produce some very nice pups - hopefully with a lot of prospect for the show ring. And excellent temperament! Both Bess and Woody are as soft as each other! 

I do like the idea of bringing on a pup to show that I've bred myself and seen all the way through from day 1.

And, someone's got to do it - breed properly! I know some people find it hard to believe, but unless people like me dip their toe in the water, the only puppies eventually will come from puppy farms!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I wasn't going to update this thread until I'd had the scan, but as I'm watching Bess like a hawk, it might be useful to share the signs I'm seeing. 

Her seasons usually last 21 days - this season ended on Sunday (day 17), and her vulva suddenly went back to (almost) normal. No discharge, and she stopped licking and cleaning herself. 

Her appetite has increased - I have a hungry dog for once! She keeps looking for food which is very unusual. However, she did this at the end of her last season and put on too much weight. Luckily her appetite dropped again after a few weeks, and she returned to normal size. As the books seem to suggest an appetite drop at this stage, it's not necessarily a good sign. I'm not sure whether to let her eat everything in sight (she's even eating MVM minces!) or restrict her food intake?

She seems quite lethargic. Energetic as normal on walks, but sleeps the rest of the time. Unusually she tends to want to stay outside in the garden (just lying down) in the evenings, or goes to her bed rather than staying with us in the lounge. But it could be just because it's got warmer.

Trouble is, I can't remember how quickly she got back to normal after her last season, especially as I used Raspberry leaf tablets to minimise the effects.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

This is going to be a very very long 7 weeks for you. At least you only have two and a bit weeks to wait for the scan.

Poor Bess, she is probably acting out of the ordinary cos you are watching her and she wonders what the hell is going on 

But don't stop, we want the updates.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Normal rations at this point, it's later on once you've confirmed pregnancy that you need to up their portions, quite a lot later than you would think.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Normal rations at this point, it's later on once you've confirmed pregnancy that you need to up their portions, quite a lot later than you would think.


That's going to be difficult to do, as 'normal rations' is usually whatever I can get her to eat!

For example, I cut a rabbit into 4 and leave her to eat 1 or possibly 2 pieces that day. The rest goes into the fridge for the next day. Yesterday she ate the whole thing!  (Along with some chicken wings and a bowl of dried food!)

I'll have to try and work on 500g a day, which is 2% of body weight, but it's hard to have a hungry dog!


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

> I'll have to try and work on 500g a day, which is 2% of body weight, but it's hard to have a hungry dog!


Haha tell me about it! Harden yourself to those big brown eyes before Bess eats you out of fridge and home!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Well, I thought I'd do a quick update even though there isn't much to say. Today's day 15 from the first mating. It's gone very quickly - f she is pregnant that's 2 out f the 9 weeks gone! 

She has continued to behave very differently. The tide has been right this week so every day I've taken her to the sea wall - she wasn't able to walk there during her season. I let her off lead there knowing she's going to tear off round the field and leap over the marshes. Well, the nearest she's got to going for a run was getting halfway down the track, stopping, turning round and coming back to me! She doesn't seem to have any energy at all, and for part of her walks she just plods. 

She's very quiet in the house. 

If I didn't think she might be pregnant I'd take her to the vets as her behaviour is so unlike her. But she's eating well, happy and looking healthy.

Of course, she might just have calmed down after her third season. 

In ten days time I'll try and have her scanned.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Is she, or isn't she? It's driving me crazy! Trying to put it out my mind, but if she is, there's 110 things I want/need to do. I won't get anything until it's confirmed. I'm superstitious that way. 

She's 21 days today from the first mating. 

I was going to have her scanned next week, but I'm having second thoughts. She gets so stressed at the vet it might not be a good idea. I have tried to see if there's someone locally who could visit and scan her, but so far no luck. The only local sheep farmer 'doesn't do dogs' because a dog ravished his flock once and he lost lambs and ewes. So I don't think I'll be asking him. 

People say wait until she's 7 weeks and then it's obvious. But that doesn't leave a lot of time to get organised! 

Half of the time I think she definitely is, and half the time that that's just wishful thinking and she's not.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Her season finishing earlier than expected is a good early indication of pregnancy in my experience. The fact that she's also slowed down and is more careful of herself is another good sign. 

Good luck !


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Shame you can't get pregnancy tests for dogs , is there such a thing ? It would be so simple to get her to wee on a stick! 
Everything crossed xx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Shame you can't get pregnancy tests for dogs , is there such a thing ? It would be so simple to get her to wee on a stick!
> Everything crossed xx


Unfortunately not. I've read there's a bit of a debate about it, but the hormone it looks for is a human one, not a dog one. Someone would make a fortune if they invented one for dogs!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Bijou said:


> Her season finishing earlier than expected is a good early indication of pregnancy in my experience. The fact that she's also slowed down and is more careful of herself is another good sign.
> 
> Good luck !


And lying down instead of 'helping' me to water the garden! Unheard of!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think I'm right in saying that the human pregnancy test would give a positive result for any dog, never mind bitches


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

This lady is brilliant at scanning. She was spot on with numbers and dating. Welcome - catmonkey


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

kiara said:


> This lady is brilliant at scanning. She was spot on with numbers and dating. Welcome - catmonkey


Her site doesn't give much information about scanning? Have you used her, then?

Not sure about the pup buying info on the site.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

OMG what a ghastly glorified puppy farmer


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> Unfortunately not. I've read there's a bit of a debate about it, but the hormone it looks for is a human one, not a dog one. Someone would make a fortune if they invented one for dogs!


Not just humans, very successful in many primates


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> Her site doesn't give much information about scanning? Have you used her, then?
> 
> Not sure about the pup buying info on the site.


I have used her and she is very good.

I dont agree with all her pups but she is a very good scanner. x


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> OMG what a ghastly glorified puppy farmer





kiara said:


> I have used her and she is very good.
> 
> I dont agree with all her pups but she is a very good scanner. x


She might be a good scanner, but somehow I'm hesitating about putting any money in her pocket. I don't agree with her ethics at all.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Chuff! One health test in place and £795 for a pup, I'd be hesitating to put any cash in that pocket as well!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Chuff! One health test in place and £795 for a pup, I'd be hesitating to put any cash in that pocket as well!


Yup. Sticks in my claw that she's breeding crossbreeds which she's selling for possibly more than I'll be able to sell my puppies from fully health tested parents which have been proven in the show ring! 

She might be a good scanner, but I wouldn't want to get into conversation with her.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

She owns 18 'pet dogs'  
Bailey, Isha, Teila, Tazzie
Logan ,Leilou ,Buffy , Nina
Anu, Evey ,Krista , Velma
Meryl , Elmo ,Kaydee ,Molly
Newton , Rhonda ..
Wtf  


Anyway. On topic... I'm loving this thread  It's like a big story.. i'm really hoping Bess IS pregnant.. Can't wait for you to find out for definate  Fingers crossed here x


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

I've only just seen this thread... how exciting  I obviously knew you were hoping to breed Bess but didn't realise it was happening now  (have you not put anything on facebook about it, or have I been blind?!). 

Keeping everything crossed for you that you find out very soon!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

That's who I was going to say for a scanner as I have seen her advertise before, but yes her stud dog is studded out to most breeds, a lot of adverts state they used her boy. 

Do dogs nipples turn pink like cats when they are pregnant lol?! :laugh: 
Our cats start to eat a bit more at 2-3weeks, then from 5weeks gone its pretty much feed on demand buffet style lol! :laugh:


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## lupie (Sep 1, 2012)

I've missed the updates to the thread - excited for you!

If it's any help, it might be too far for you as I know you're not local to me, but Ruska was scanned by Sam at Wey Farm, Ottershaw. The breeder has been using her for the last 15 years I think and she's always been fab. It's a farm so it's not like the vets so perhaps won't stress her out so much. But it could be blooming miles away from you and therefore no use


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Coffee said:


> I've only just seen this thread... how exciting  I obviously knew you were hoping to breed Bess but didn't realise it was happening now  (have you not put anything on facebook about it, or have I been blind?!).
> 
> Keeping everything crossed for you that you find out very soon!


No, I've not put much on FB. Only a request for a local scanner. I will if it turns out she is.



Taylorbaby said:


> That's who I was going to say for a scanner as I have seen her advertise before, but yes her stud dog is studded out to most breeds, a lot of adverts state they used her boy.
> 
> Do dogs nipples turn pink like cats when they are pregnant lol?! :laugh:
> Our cats start to eat a bit more at 2-3weeks, then from 5weeks gone its pretty much feed on demand buffet style lol! :laugh:


Bess's nipples are always pink! 



lupie said:


> I've missed the updates to the thread - excited for you!
> 
> If it's any help, it might be too far for you as I know you're not local to me, but Ruska was scanned by Sam at Wey Farm, Ottershaw. The breeder has been using her for the last 15 years I think and she's always been fab. It's a farm so it's not like the vets so perhaps won't stress her out so much. But it could be blooming miles away from you and therefore no use


Yes, I'm near Colchester in Essex so quite a way. But thank you anyway.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Just caught up with this thread as I've been away from home (and broadband) for almost 2 months.

I do hope all goes well and pups are on their way, very exciting. 

Noticed a few posts from you on the Champdogs forum. Have they been helpful?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Just caught up with this thread as I've been away from home (and broadband) for almost 2 months.
> 
> I do hope all goes well and pups are on their way, very exciting.
> 
> Noticed a few posts from you on the Champdogs forum. Have they been helpful?


There's a lot of interesting old thread on Champdogs about breeding. I've only asked one question so far.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Went to a show today - without Bess. The stud dog owner (and separately the stud dog breeder) asked if Bess was showing any signs. I said she'd been very lethargic. They nodded sagely, and said that it seemed like she was looking after herself. 

Then met the breeder of Bess's sire and dam. I told her about the mating, and told her she was lethargic. She looked at me in horror and said she definitely should not be lethargic, and asked if I'd had her checked for an infection? Now I KNOW she hasn't got infection - it's hard to say how. Anyway, she then said 'How's her appetite?' When I told her she was eating for England she patted me on the arm and declared 'she's pregnant!' 

I think the answers I get from my crystal ball are about as good!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

When are you having a scan?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> When are you having a scan?


I'm not sure I am. I really want to, but Bess gets so stressed at the vets I'm being advised not to - unless I can find someone who will come out to me. I've registered at a new vets as they are more knowledgeable about breeding, and I thought she'd be less worried there as it's a new place.

So it may be a case of waiting to see.


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## 4princesses (Oct 25, 2010)

I have sat and read the whole of this thread and thoroughly enjoyed it, I really hope that Bess is pregnant, something tells me she is  I'll look forward to seeing further updates, thanks for sharing yours - and Bess's experiences with us xxxx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

4princesses said:


> I have sat and read the whole of this thread and thoroughly enjoyed it, I really hope that Bess is pregnant, something tells me she is  I'll look forward to seeing further updates, thanks for sharing yours - and Bess's experiences with us xxxx


Thank you! I was hoping it might be useful for others to read.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I've bitten the bullet and booked Bess in for a scan on Friday. I couldn't get a response from any of the mobile people round here, and I thought at least if she is, then I can get any advice I need at the same time. Both myself and the OH have a gut feel that she is as she's acting so differently, but we'll hopefully know for sure on Friday.

It will be after 2 o'clock - it's the lead vet who does the imaging, and they don't know what time he'll be free.

I've decided that I'll keep Bess outside the building until we're called in, so hopefully she won't get stressed in the waiting room.

Don't worry - I'll let you know the outcome as soon as I'm back!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Ooohh , exciting ! How many days will she be then ?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Ooohh , exciting ! How many days will she be then ?


30 from first mating, 28 from second.


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

How exciting!!

I am a wreck just waiting to find out if a dam is indeed a dam (getting scanned this week) for a potential litter we are hoping to get a pup from.

If it was my own much loved and treasured dog I wouldn't sleep a wink till I knew! 

Keeping everything crossed for you 

And Looking at the parents, they are going to be some SERIOUSLY cute puppies! :001_wub:


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

And so it ends. 

Vet could see nothing on the scan and said categorically that she's not pregnant. 

Now I just have to tell her that!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

oh big hugs....so so sorry.xx


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Oh Trish - I'm sorry, how disappointing.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Oh no, I'm really sorry to read this Trish, it's rotten luck that the people who put in all the hard work and effort, health test, and plan a litter in this way have the bad luck.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Oh that's sad I was looking forward to a happy ending and pics of gorgeous setter pups. Sorry that it's turned out this way, I guess she's having a phantom again.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oh no, I'm really sorry to read this Trish, it's rotten luck that the people who put in all the hard work and effort, health test, and plan a litter in this way have the bad luck.


Just what I was thinking, SL. And I won't be able to sell the video rights to the birth now. Will have cancel the film crew.



Siskin said:


> Oh that's sad I was looking forward to a happy ending and pics of gorgeous setter pups. Sorry that it's turned out this way, I guess she's having a phantom again.


I'm gutted. And a bit concerned. Even the vet agreed it was too early for a normal phantom. It is possible that she was but re absorbed, and that triggered a phantom.

I know there are stories of vets being wrong with scans, but I don't know what the likelihood of that is. It was their imaging specialist, the head of the practice. Not someone newly qualified.

If it's a phantom I need to up her exercise and limit her food intake. But she's plodding on just our normal walks at the moment, so I'd feel dreadful about forcing her to do more if there's a chance the vet just missed it?

Because of her behaviour it's not just a simple case of saying 'oh well, that's it til next time'. The vet wasn't much good - he just said wait until after her due date (five weeks time) and then they'd look at treating any phantom.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh, so disappointed for you ! Obviously not meant to be this time.
Who had you picked to play you in the film - I' m thinking Kate Winslett ?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oh no, I'm really sorry to read this Trish, it's rotten luck that the people who put in all the hard work and effort, health test, and plan a litter in this way have the bad luck.


This!! So sorry to hear that  Just found out my girl wasn't in kitten, sometimes it takes more than 1 go when its done properly, all the non planned mating's seem to end up in litters!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Taylorbaby said:


> This!! So sorry to hear that  Just found out my girl wasn't in kitten, sometimes it takes more than 1 go when its done properly, all the non planned mating's seem to end up in litters!


Just makes me wonder how 'accidental' accidental litters really are. If that makes sense!

Sorry you're not going to be hearing the patter of tiny paws either.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm so sorry....not at all the news you hoped for.

But all I'd like to say is that I personally know 2 people who were unequivically told that their girl wasn't pregnant...DEFINITELY not pregnant...nope, not a chance. Their vet had truckloads of scanning experience. 

One delivered 2 pups, the other one 6. Six!!

So I wouldn't abandon all hope just yet. Isn't her due date still a month away? Was the scan perhaps a tad early to be even vaguely predictive?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh, how disappointed you must be.

It is a little early for a phantom, but that can happen with a bitch who has actually been mated.

Is Bess producing milk?


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm really sorry to hear this :sad: 

It sometimes feels like it's always the people who do things properly that suffer the misfortunes :nonod:


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I'm so sorry....not at all the news you hoped for.
> 
> But all I'd like to say is that I personally know 2 people who were unequivically told that their girl wasn't pregnant...DEFINITELY not pregnant...nope, not a chance. Their vet had truckloads of scanning experience.
> 
> ...


I've heard the same thing. And Kite had twice as many as expected. There could still be pups tucked away in there.

What was your arrangement with the stud's owner, free mating next season if she misses this time?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I'm so sorry....not at all the news you hoped for.
> 
> But all I'd like to say is that I personally know 2 people who were unequivically told that their girl wasn't pregnant...DEFINITELY not pregnant...nope, not a chance. Their vet had truckloads of scanning experience.
> 
> ...


Scan was either 30 or 28 days from mating - and she ovulated about 34 days ago. Vet was pretty convinced if he couldn't see anything now there was nothing to see.

Having thought about it I don't want to hang onto hope just to be disappointed.

I'm lucky in having a decent stud owner. I need pay her no money, and I'm not tied to going back to her.



Sweety said:


> Oh, how disappointed you must be.
> 
> It is a little early for a phantom, but that can happen with a bitch who has actually been mated.
> 
> Is Bess producing milk?


Not producing milk, but definitely a little swollen.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> I've heard the same thing. And Kite had twice as many as expected. There could still be pups tucked away in there.
> 
> What was your arrangement with the stud's owner, free mating next season if she misses this time?


I don't pay her anything, and I don't need to go back. :thumbsup:


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Oh, gutted! I was thinking of Bess today.

At least she's okay, and you can try again.  xxxxx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> Oh, gutted! I was thinking of Bess today.
> 
> At least she's okay, and you can try again.  xxxxx


I'm told a spring litter can be better as the pups sleep in later!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

BessieDog said:


> I'm told a spring litter can be better as the pups sleep in later!


Oh, good for you putting such a brave face on. You're dealing with the disappointment really well and I know, it's horribly disappointing.

It will happen for you and Bess, but the waiting can be hard when you've set your heart. x


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sweety said:


> Oh, good for you putting such a brave face on. You're dealing with the disappointment really well and I know, it's horribly disappointing.
> 
> It will happen for you and Bess, but the waiting can be hard when you've set your heart. x


I've missed being able to enter the Bournemouth show (found a lovely caravan park down there last year!). But tomorrow I'm booking Bess into another show or two which will mean we get to go out and about this summer. We had given up hope of any holiday, so that's a bright side! :thumbsup:


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Pure nosiness on my part - but was Bess's ...erm "husband"... a proven stud? 

Or new to this mating malarkey himself? In case of the latter -and in case you'd want to repeat the love fest with him at her next season - can you and Bess meet up with him and the owner for some walks in the interim? The more familiar and relaxed the 2 dogs are with one another, the less stressful for both when she is in "come get me Tiger" mode next time, surely.

You know when you mentioned your disbelief at the high success rate of accidental matings earlier.....don't forget that many of those dogs know each other REALLY well. Living in the same household, or next door to one another, or in the same street. They are familiar with each other's scent and behaviours and hence have no performance anxieties. Just saying....


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Pure nosiness on my part - but was Bess's ...erm "husband"... a proven stud?
> 
> Or new to this mating malarkey himself? In case of the latter -and in case you'd want to repeat the love fest with him at her next season - can you and Bess meet up with him and the owner for some walks in the interim? The more familiar and relaxed the 2 dogs are with one another, the less stressful for both when she is in "come get me Tiger" mode next time, surely.
> 
> You know when you mentioned your disbelief at the high success rate of accidental matings earlier.....don't forget that many of those dogs know each other REALLY well. Living in the same household, or next door to one another, or in the same street. They are familiar with each other's scent and behaviours and hence have no performance anxieties. Just saying....


He is a proven stud. 3 litters.

Bess had 5 afternoons with him. The first day she was NOT interested and told him where to go, but from the second day onwards they had a great time playing with each other. I was uneasy on the first day, but seeing how she accepted him on the next 4 days was really pleased with how they got on.

They only had two slip matings though, on the 3rd and 5th day. So I'd say they were happy and relaxed.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> Just makes me wonder how 'accidental' accidental litters really are. If that makes sense!
> 
> Sorry you're not going to be hearing the patter of tiny paws either.


I know!! She is going back to stud soon, cant leave her any longer. I don't know about dog breeding, can you take her back on her next season? Or do you have to wait inbetween?



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I'm so sorry....not at all the news you hoped for.
> 
> But all I'd like to say is that I personally know 2 people who were unequivically told that their girl wasn't pregnant...DEFINITELY not pregnant...nope, not a chance. Their vet had truckloads of scanning experience.
> 
> ...


OH wow I totally forgot! A vet said my girl was 100% NOT pregnant, she was retaining water (Or some rubbish) She went on to have 8 kittens!!

I and the vets, also thought my girl miss-carried last and she went on to have 4 kittens, we didn't know she was still pregnant until she started to show in week 8, we were waiting for her to call lol!! :laugh: She had 4 healthy babies that are now 14months old themselves!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Taylorbaby said:


> I know!! She is going back to stud soon, cant leave her any longer. I don't know about dog breeding, can you take her back on her next season? Or do you have to wait inbetween?
> 
> OH wow I totally forgot! A vet said my girl was 100% NOT pregnant, she was retaining water (Or some rubbish) She went on to have 8 kittens!!
> 
> I and the vets, also thought my girl miss-carried last and she went on to have 4 kittens, we didn't know she was still pregnant until she started to show in week 8, we were waiting for her to call lol!! :laugh: She had 4 healthy babies that are now 14months old themselves!


I can try on her next season - but that won't be until mid January.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

How Dissapointing for you , but your'e right, a Spring litter is easier and the next six months will pass quickly, good luck with your future plans


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## Puppy Love (Jan 10, 2008)

Just logged on and read your post! Sorry to hear your girl is not in pup :sad:!! You can always try again on her next season!! Do you think you will use Woody again?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Puppy Love said:


> Just logged on and read your post! Sorry to hear your girl is not in pup :sad:!! You can always try again on her next season!! Do you think you will use Woody again?


No, I won't be using Woody. I might use her younger dog. He's got a similar pedigree and his JW. But he hasn't had his hips scored yet, so she'll need to get that done first.


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## newfielover (May 16, 2009)

I am so sorry that Bessie isnt pregnant, I was reading this thread with my fingers crossed for you. It is so disheartening when you have taken so much care and put so much thought into it, I really hope that it works next time for you both.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sorry there's no puppies this time, it must be so disappointing for you....


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

What a shame, this is a situation we can relate to as we were up to 7 misses out 11 attempts between 2 bitches and those people who have had no misses would have no idea of the feeling .


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