# I know I'm not going to make myself popular by asking this question.



## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

How common is a father to daughter and brother to sister mating done.

I have noticed this on at least 2 pedigrees on pawpeds.
On one breeders website she would rather do this to preserve the look of the breed than the health in my opinion. Surely breeding too close together is going to cause genetic problems.


Or is it quite common?


Sorry if I have hit a nerve, but I needed to ask.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

PetloverJo said:


> How common is a father to daughter and brother to sister mating done.
> 
> I have noticed this on at least 2 pedigrees on pawpeds.
> On one breeders website she would rather do this to preserve the look of the breed than the health in my opinion. Surely breeding too close together is going to cause genetic problems.
> ...


Kittens from these matings are no longer accepted for inclusion on the GCCF active register. This rule has only existed for the last few years and I don't know the position in other registries. Pawpeds has pedigrees from many different countries.

These very close matings can show up defects in a line which could unknowingly be passed on when outcrossing but in general they are not a good idea because, over a period of time there is the danger of inbreeding depression.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Kittens from these matings are no longer accepted for inclusion on the GCCF active register._
I thought they could be with special permission, if there's 'good' reason to do so. I have no idea what would constitute an acceptable reason.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Thank you very much for your replies.

I am so glad this isn't happening anymore, or at least very infrequently.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm not sure it ever happened a lot. In following back my own cat's pedigrees I've found a lot of half-sib matings but very few that are full-sib or parent/child. It may well depend on the breed of course - some breeds might have a lot more of these sorts of matings than others.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Father/daughter or _half_ brother/_half _sister in a pedigree wouldn't bother me, but not done repeatedly.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

[QUOhTE="spotty cats, post: 1064184003, member: 1329257"]Father/daughter or _half_ brother/_half _sister in a pedigree wouldn't bother me, but not done repeatedly.[/QUOTE]

It bothers me when it causes a genetic problem and causes early death of a beloved cat. Maybe this is why HCM is so prevailent in some breeds because of this.

In human terms a father daughter mating would be incest. Resulting in all sorts of genetic problems for the child. ( There has been cases of this) Therefore why is it acceptable for cats


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

havoc said:


> _Kittens from these matings are no longer accepted for inclusion on the GCCF active register._
> I thought they could be with special permission, if there's 'good' reason to do so. I have no idea what would constitute an acceptable reason.


The only request our BAC has had was turned down. The applicant suggested that the cat in question would be valuable to a scarce tabby pattern.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_In human terms a father daughter mating would be incest. Resulting in all sorts of genetic problems for the child. ( There has been cases of this) Therefore why is it acceptable for cats_
I'd imagine it's the norm among feral colonies and farm cats ie 'natural'.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Father/daughter or _half_ brother/_half _sister in a pedigree wouldn't bother me, but not done repeatedly.


Parent/child and full sibs are both 25% inbreeding, half-sibs is 12.5% so on those grounds I'd be equally unkeen about parent/child and full sibs. Agree absolutely about not wanting to see lots of it. Found a cat whose paternal grandfather is the same as both the maternal great grandfathers, inbreeding (according to pawpeds) is 18.8%.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

havoc said:


> _In human terms a father daughter mating would be incest. Resulting in all sorts of genetic problems for the child. ( There has been cases of this) Therefore why is it acceptable for cats_
> I'd imagine it's the norm among feral colonies and farm cats ie 'natural'.


I agree, but I can see the context being different enough to argue that the gene pool of farm/feral cats starts off wider in the first place (even if it has become narrowed over subsequent generations), compared to a pedigree breed (dependent on the breed). And the pool is also fluid as cats will come and go.

Plus, the impact is not as great anyway because nobody 'owns' farm or feral cats as pets and there's a multitude of other things that could end their lives prematurely out there, other than genetic disease. Pedigree cats are, as a rule, pets expected to live for many years and any illness they get will have a much greater impact on their circumstances.

Very interesting discussion.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> Father/daughter or _half_ brother/_half _sister in a pedigree wouldn't bother me, but not done repeatedly.


Would bother me a lot! Only queen I ever had who was result of half brother sister mating was a complete mess health wise. I fell in love with her when I saw her sat in her own wee, already in a basket for collection (yes, warning bells all over, but couldn't leave her there. Today I'd probably report it but we live and learn). Only checked her pedigree when I got her home, thought a bit close but assumed if GCCF registered as active it must be ok. She aborted at 6 weeks. Tried a different stud, aborted all but 1 at 7 weeks. That one was born by caesarean as she was overdue and not doing anything at all even after oxytocin (and spay at same time), kitten did really well and then literally dropped dead at 3 weeks old. Queen then herniared through the spay wound (might be coincidence), developed kidney disease whilst very young (4 1/2) and finally had to be PTS following a stroke at 5 years old. Heartache from beginning to end, not to mention some serious vet bills and not one penny in return. Avoid like the plague.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

PetloverJo said:


> It bothers me when it causes a genetic problem and causes early death of a beloved cat. Maybe this is why HCM is so prevailent in some breeds because of this.
> 
> In human terms a father daughter mating would be incest. Resulting in all sorts of genetic problems for the child. ( There has been cases of this) Therefore why is it acceptable for cats


HCM is very complicated genetically - in humans "_Mutations in 11 or more genes encoding proteins of the cardiac sarcomere (>1,400 variants) are responsible for (or associated with) HCM_" and I imagine the situation is just as complicated with cats. And from iCatCare:

_The majority of cases of HCM in humans are recognised to have a genetic basis, with over 130 genetic mutations already identified that may cause or predispose an individual to development of the disease._​
A cat can test negative for the known HCM gene for it's breed (if there is one) and still go on to develop the disease. A cat with parents who have scanned clear for several years can develop it. It's an incredibly difficult disease to reduce the prevalence of because it may well not show until a cat is 8-10 years old, by which time most cats breeding career is over. I suspect there is also little pressure on feral populations to reduce the incidence as most cats that go on to develop it have already bred and passed their genes on before they succumb. I can't find the reference, but it's quite common in non-pedigree populations as well, maybe because parents quite happily mate with children and siblings with each other - they have no concept of incest. Apparently it occurs in various wild cat species as well.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I agree, but I can see the context being different enough to argue that the gene pool of farm/feral cats starts off wider in the first place (even if it has become narrowed over subsequent generations), compared to a pedigree breed (dependent on the breed). And the pool is also fluid as cats will come and go.
> Plus, the impact is not as great anyway because nobody 'owns' farm or feral cats as pets and there's a multitude of other things that could end their lives prematurely out there, other than genetic disease. Pedigree cats are, as a rule, pets expected to live for many years and any illness they get will have a much greater impact on their circumstances.
> Very interesting discussion.


Havoc simply stated that close inbreeding is 'natural.' You are correct in saying the context is completely different. Sadly many farm and feral cats will suffer appallingly and that will be irrelevant as long as there is a sufficient number remaining to perpetuate the colony. However I doubt the gene pools have been examined in any depth so it is not possible to compare the relative diversity.

It is shocking that many breeders have little regard for the longterm health of the kittens they breed but it is difficult to see what can be done about it since registering organisations such as GCCF have no legal powers of enforcement.

I have been horrified by the callousness of those who could effect some changes to improve the welfare of my own breeds. I have been trying unsuccessfully to publicise a recessive genetic condition which would be simple to eradicate in two generations with a simple change to registration policy. I cannot understand how people who spend all their time with cats, breeding, showing, judging, sitting on committees etc can have so little care for the welfare of those cats.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

QOTN said:


> Havoc simply stated that close inbreeding is 'natural.' You are correct in saying the context is completely different. Sadly many farm and feral cats will suffer appallingly and that will be irrelevant as long as there is a sufficient number remaining to perpetuate the colony. However I doubt the gene pools have been examined in any depth so it is not possible to compare the relative diversity.
> 
> It is shocking that many breeders have little regard for the longterm health of the kittens they breed but it is difficult to see what can be done about it since registering organisations such as GCCF have no legal powers of enforcement.
> 
> I have been horrified by the callousness of those who could effect some changes to improve the welfare of my own breeds. I have been trying unsuccessfully to publicise a recessive genetic condition which would be simple to eradicate in two generations with a simple change to registration policy. I cannot understand how people who spend all their time with cats, breeding, showing, judging, sitting on committees etc can have so little care for the welfare of those cats.


I suppose it's like the attention that dog breeds such as the CKCS and GSD attracted following 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed' in 2008 (I think it was 2008?). Some dog breeders 'love' their breed, yet are willing to place tradition and show rosettes above the welfare of the animals and continue to breed in negative traits to preserve the breed. I'd hazard a guess that the same phenomenon contributes to similar problems in some pedigree cats.

And Thoroughbred racehorses. Money comes first in the racing industry, since many an unsound stallion has been allowed to breed on. A prominent example is Storm Cat, whose fee was $500,000 per cover. He was an infamous bleeder, and many of his progeny suffered the same. They sure could run, though.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Some dog breeders 'love' their breed, yet are willing to place tradition and show rosettes above the welfare of the animals _
I do think it's a teensy bit harsh to assume it's a deliberate and callous act in all cases. Not all breeders are collectors of show rosettes above all else and it takes experience and broad shoulders to buck 'tradition. A novice breeder can only do as advised by those they perceive to have the knowledge and experience to guide them. Some (many) do learn to think for themselves in time.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

PetloverJo said:


> In human terms a father daughter mating would be incest. Resulting in all sorts of genetic problems for the child. ( There has been cases of this) Therefore why is it acceptable for cats


It's far from true that father/daughter or mother/son pregnancies always produce genetic problems for the child. The incidence is increased, but not to anything like 50%.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> <snip>
> 
> And Thoroughbred racehorses. Money comes first in the racing industry, since many an unsound stallion has been allowed to breed on. A prominent example is Storm Cat, whose fee was $500,000 per cover. He was an infamous bleeder, and many of his progeny suffered the same. They sure could run, though.


Looked up Storm Cat and I've heard of his sire, grandsire and damsire. Amazed! I see he was sound enough to make it to 30, and to continue covering mares until he was 25 when reduced fertility ended his stud career. However there's a big difference between that and being sound enough to race.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Look on some of mine, one of my girls has got a common great grandfather on each side. Most breeders try to keep inbreeding to a minimum and there is software such as pedigree assistant to help with it but there will always be some I think. And whilst not common I am guessing that there are registrations made using false parentage to cover up some close matings. My very first girl I bought as a Maine Coon pet years ago had on her GCCF registration and pedigree that she was a blue tortie (she definately was) but parents listed as a silver tabby sire and blue solid dam? At the time I was naive but later I queried it with the GCCF and they said it wasn't their job to make sure the submissions were correct?
Pedigrees aside i would imagine that inbreeding happens all the time as mentioned in the moggy and farm world. Cats aren't that bothered. My own beloved mog Tigger who sadly passed a few ago at nearly 18 was the result of a brother and sister mating I believe. Yes the incidence of some genetic conditions would be increased through inbreeding but the majority happen regardless, there would be no way of proving in the majority of cases whether inbreeding was a contributing factor. In newer breeds then inbreeding is inevitable while the gene pool is low. Even in Maine Coons which have been established here for a couple of decades originated from a very small number of imported cats and lots still will have similar cats in their lineage.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Looked up Storm Cat and I've heard of his sire, grandsire and damsire. Amazed! I see he was sound enough to make it to 30, and to continue covering mares until he was 25 when reduced fertility ended his stud career. However there's a big difference between that and being sound enough to race.


Probably Storm Bird's best son.  And Secretariat was always a better sire of mares than stallions. He is also the damsire of A.P. Indy, at one time the SECOND most expensive stallion in the world after Storm Cat.

EIPH is present to a degree in virtually all racing Thoroughbreds, but some bleed more than others. It's one of the reasons frusemide is given to the vast majority of racehorses in the States (obviously banned here). I don't think it's common for serious bleeds to occur outside exercise - although it can happen. Summer Squall (another son of Storm Bird and actually out of the same mare as A.P. Indy) was a bleeder as well and bled in his paddock at least once. They didn't even bother running him in the Belmont Stakes because frusemide was illegal in NY at the time.

A lot of it is (anecdotally) traced back to Hermit - who appears over a dozen times in Northern Dancer's pedigree - and anyone who knows anything about Thoroughbred bloodstock knows how influential Northern Dancer was/is. AFAIK, Northern Dancer himself never bled significantly.

Sorry, off topic!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Had to look up EIPH as well! But I do know how important Northern Dancer is. I've heard of a lot of his progeny - at least the good ones. Unfortunately you need to be able to see more than 5 generations to find Hermit. At least with cats we can go 10 generations back in living memory!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Had to look up EIPH as well! But I do know how important Northern Dancer is. I've heard of a lot of his progeny - at least the good ones. Unfortunately you need to be able to see more than 5 generations to find Hermit. At least with cats we can go 10 generations back in living memory!


EIPH is more common than it seems on the surface - while some horses will bleed from the nostrils, in others it is confined within the lungs and airways. If you read the racing press or watch it on TV you'll often hear that a horse has 'scoped dirty' and been withdrawn from a race, or had a 'dirty scope' after a lacklustre performance. They routinely examine the airways of racehorses with endoscopy, and a 'dirty scope' is one in which they've found blood in the airways. Or an infection. But usually blood.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Going way way off topic...

Are racehorses the only ones regularly 'scoped'? I was wondering about show jumpers, polo ponies, eventers...


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

No idea TBH.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

Out of curiosity if in the case of feral colonies if dad mates daughter, what are the possibilities of the body rejecting/attacking the pregnancy and the daughter not catching?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Out of curiosity if in the case of feral colonies if dad mates daughter, what are the possibilities of the body rejecting/attacking the pregnancy _
I'd think very low to nil. 
_and the daughter not catching?_
That we can't know. In pedigree breeding we do everything we can to ensure the maximum chance of successful conception within our domestic constraints and I doubt feral matings are quite so organised. There's certainly no evidence that close sibling matings are any less successful in that regard. What we do know is that hybrid vigour is lost - smaller litters and possibly smaller cats.
_
_


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

havoc said:


> _Out of curiosity if in the case of feral colonies if dad mates daughter, what are the possibilities of the body rejecting/attacking the pregnancy _
> I'd think very low to nil.
> _and the daughter not catching?_
> That we can't know. In pedigree breeding we do everything we can to ensure the maximum chance of successful conception within our domestic constraints and I doubt feral matings are quite so organised. There's certainly no evidence that close sibling matings are any less successful in that regard. What we do know is that hybrid vigour is lost - smaller litters and possibly smaller cats.


Shorter life span as well? Plus any defects associated with interbreeding I guess


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

daisysmama said:


> Shorter life span as well? Plus any defects associated with interbreeding I guess


A short life span is not necessarily significant where farm and feral colonies are concerned. Nature only requires a creature to live long enough to at least reproduce itself. In any case I suspect those cats' lives are often cut short for other reasons before any longer term genetic inheritance can take effect.

When we breed pedigree cats as pets we have to bear in mind other requirements. I think a long life free from suffering where possible is what breeders should be aiming for. I do not think this is true for all breeders and some will accept inbreeding depression because it suits their own purposes. For example, if judges tend to favour smaller cats that appear more elegant, some breeders would consider a shorter life with the possibility of increased susceptibility to disease a price worth paying. They may not think of it in those terms because as has already been stated in another post, breeders tend to aim for 'perfection' as laid out in the standard of points.

Nevertheless, I do think some attitudes are indefensible. If you know cats of your own breeding do not generally live long lives, I find it callous in the extreme to oppose any attempt to prevent a condition which may afflict other cats in later life.

I must add that it was very informative when one of my boys had his mother by mistake. The resulting kittens were generally healthy and most were reasonably long lived but it did highlight for me that there was a weakness in the lung department in my line. Many of my other cats have had very long lives but lung problems were over-represented as they got old although they did not all have the same conditions. I only realised the connections when one of my 'incest' babies died at 6 from emphysema, something I had never heard of in cats before and another died at 10 from pneumonia apparently caused by chronic asthma not noticed by the owner. Having said that, old cats are inevitably going to suffer ailments so, as long as their inheritance of susceptibilities is balanced by a generally strong constitution, that is the best a breeder can aim for.

In future it is to be hoped there will be more DNA tests available to prevent cats being born with some of these inherited conditions and *all *breeders will be 'persuaded' to use them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Shorter life span as well?_
Not so sure. Again we can't know. Ferals would be expected to have shorter lives than a pampered household pet in general.

_Plus any defects associated with interbreeding I guess_
Only if the 'defects' are being carried in the first place. When people talk about this in animals they usually mean the obvious recessive genes which cause a problem when doubled up as can happen with human first cousins. It isn't always such a simple thing just as many human babies are created less than 'perfect' from totally unrelated parents and we are all at the mercy of our genetic makeup.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I wouldn't do this, the nearest I have done was grandfather and granddaughter mating, this was when I first started breeding and only saw the studs pedigree once mated, I was naive and the deed had been done before I realised, I wouldn't do such a close mating again but luckily the kittens were healthy and gorgeous. 
Before breeding I used to take in adult cats in need, one of those cats had parents which were siblings, her pedigree was the worst I have ever seen with crossings out on almost every name, the breeder obviously didn't know what she was doing, I don't even know if her pedigree was correct, if I had bought her as a kitten I would have been very upset.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't think father-daughter/brother-sister/mother-son matings are very common. These are often frown upon and are not allowed by many feline organisations. My maiden's queen future mate's grandfather is my queen's sire which is close enough for me. I decided not to be against this as he is still alive and healthy. If he had died young/middle aged from suspicious circumstances, both my queen and her potential mate would have been neutered.


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