# Settle an arguement



## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Me and my brother were having a chat and god knows how but we came onto talking about Falconry and owning birds of prey.

We disagree about one thing. Do you need a license to own one, or do you only need one if intending to hunt with it?

I have no plans to get one, this is purely out of interest to prove who is right :thumbup:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I am 99.9% sure you need a licence to own birds of prey.I think hawksport is the best person to ask.*


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## 2lisa2 (Apr 30, 2010)

im sure you need a licence to own one


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

This is my thinking as well


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm pretty sure you need a licence and you have to go on a training course first.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> Me and my brother were having a chat and god knows how but we came onto talking about Falconry and owning birds of prey.
> 
> We disagree about one thing. Do you need a license to own one, or do you only need one if intending to hunt with it?
> 
> I have no plans to get one, this is purely out of interest to prove who is right :thumbup:


There is no licence to own one. Some require DEFRA paperwork to prove the bird is captive bred. Anyone with the cash could go out and buy a Golden Eagle with no idea how to care for it, if you could find someone willing to sell you one.
To hunt vermin eg rabbit, fox, crow, magpie ect you only need the land owners permision.
To hunt game eg pheasant, grouse ect you need a game licence from the post office
Then there is a quary licence which applies to certain hawks/falcons hunting certain quarry eg flying merlins at larks, sparrowhawks at blackbirds. This type specifies the ring number of the bop to be used and the numbers and location that quary may be taken and is only applicable to certain native species


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You'd think there would be they're such specialist animals to own


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I'm pretty sure you need a licence and you have to go on a training course first.


No compulsory training either


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> There is no licence to own one. Some require DEFRA paperwork to prove the bird is captive bred. Anyone with the cash could go out and buy a Golden Eagle with no idea how to care for it, if you could find someone willing to sell you one.
> To hunt vermin eg rabbit, fox, crow, magpie ect you only need the land owners permision.
> To hunt game eg pheasant, grouse ect you need a game licence from the post office
> Then there is a quary licence which applies to certain hawks/falcons hunting certain quarry eg flying merlins at larks, sparrowhawks at blackbirds. This type specifies the ring number of the bop to be used and the numbers and location that quary may be taken and is only applicable to certain native species


Thanks Hawksport, sounds like he was right.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Interested now.......

So say somebody had one as a pet and decided to go fly it in a local field and it killed a blackbird by accident, what would happen then?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

What I and a lot of other would like to see is a similar system to what they have in America. First you need to do an apprenticeship under a qualified falconer. Then you have to pass an exam Then you have to have all your equipment and housing inspected. When you have done all that you are issued a licence to trap limited species and as you gain experience you are allowed more species.
Now I know everyone will say "you can't trap wild birds". What you have to remember is that 90% of bops die in the first year. If there was a legal wild take, which we still have but is always refused the vast majority of those would survive that first year, learn to hunt and then later be returned to the wild to breed.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That would be much better than letting any idiot who wants a falcon/eagle to look cool have one.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> Interested now.......
> 
> So say somebody had one as a pet and decided to go fly it in a local field and it killed a blackbird by accident, what would happen then?


If it were a one off accident, nothing they are wild animals and accidents happen. Even little old ladies dogs get caught sometimes


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2011)

hawksport said:


> There is no licence to own one. Some require DEFRA paperwork to prove the bird is captive bred. Anyone with the cash could go out and buy a Golden Eagle with no idea how to care for it, if you could find someone willing to sell you one.
> To hunt vermin eg rabbit, fox, crow, magpie ect you only need the land owners permision.
> To hunt game eg pheasant, grouse ect you need a game licence from the post office
> Then there is a quary licence which applies to certain hawks/falcons hunting certain quarry eg flying merlins at larks, sparrowhawks at blackbirds. This type specifies the ring number of the bop to be used and the numbers and location that quary may be taken and is only applicable to certain native species


Out of interest Hawksport.
How many illegal birds do you think are out there?

(maybe phased that wrongly! by illegal I meant those NOT bred in captivity)


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Out f interest Hawksport.
> How many illegal birds do you think are out there?


I wouldn't like to guess. Proper illegal birds, not many. Birds with mistakes on paperwork would be more common.
The price and availability of captive bred means it's not worth the risk. You can get a male peregrin for about £500 or a female for about £800. Weigh that up against the massive fine and a ban.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Then there's the hybrids that you only get with captive breeding


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Are licences expensive?

I am guessing a good breeder would question anyone buying one, i.e what the person wants one for etc?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> Are licences expensive?
> 
> I am guessing a good breeder would question anyone buying one, i.e what the person wants one for etc?


I'm sure a game licence is £7
Most breeders would vet a potential buyer as a dog breeder would but the harris hawk is now in the same sort of trouble as the Staffie. Infact they are often swapped for Staffies to be paraded around.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

So not expensive at all then.

So what would you say is limiting them becoming so widespread in the pet trade? (I know there is lots of people who own them for falconry proper) Is it cost of equipment/housing?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Lots of people fly them to lures without actually hunting. 
There not much to look at and for the same sort of price you could have parrots. 
Unless they are trained cleaning is a big problem and for a meat eater that is important, who wants rat guts hanging all over an aviary covered in flies. 
Most people think you need a licence.
The husbandry and training is a bit of a black art surounded in mystery and secretsy
Out of interest how long would you expect it to take to train let's say a harris hawk from comming out of an aviary at 16 weeks old and never seen a human to free flying?


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Not sure but would guess a long time


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

What, months or years


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Guessing off the top of my head - 18 months


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I allow 10 days


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

LOL that's mean, you made me feel as if I would of been way out if I guessed a low estimate, so I went high 

Is that 10 days for a Harris Hawk, which I think I am right in saying is easier to train than other birds, or 10 days for any bird?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

10 days for a harris. My saker took about 6 weeks. The hybrid I'm having this year should take around 8 weeks because the Gyr in it will make things difficult


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Just been looking up online sources, I think something like they do in America would be so much better, the only laws/rules in the UK seem to be prove it's not a wild one and size of housing.

Fairly suprised by all this.

So you said the Harris Hawk as the BOP equivelent of a Staffie, what did you mean by that?Are they popular due to their ease of training or the fact they are pack hunters?


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> What I and a lot of other would like to see is a similar system to what they have in America. First you need to do an apprenticeship under a qualified falconer. Then you have to pass an exam Then you have to have all your equipment and housing inspected. When you have done all that you are issued a licence to trap limited species and as you gain experience you are allowed more species.
> Now I know everyone will say "you can't trap wild birds". What you have to remember is that 90% of bops die in the first year. If there was a legal wild take, which we still have but is always refused the vast majority of those would survive that first year, learn to hunt and then later be returned to the wild to breed.


This would be a really good idea.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I've just found in the sale ads the perfect example of why we need a licencing system.
First a pic of my male Saker. Note the leash short and coiled out othe way so it wont damage anything if the falcon bates off the fist. Look how the feathers all lay nice and smooth and have rounded ends.










Compare that to this miserable looking specimen. You see how all the primaries (the long feathers on the end of the wing) and the train (tail feathers) are all broken. All caused by bad management.










Where do I begin with this pic of how it is kept . The leash length is too long, If it bates off it could get enough speed up to break it's legs, it could also hit plant pots, benches and wire mesh and hurt itself. The fixing point can't rotate around the block so it can get stuck and tangle the falcon. The "block " itself is an old log which puts the falcon at risk of aspergilosis. The leash isn't tied to the fixing point with a proper falconers knot, if it come undone the falcon will end up hanging by its leash in a tree and die. On top of the block is an old piece of carpet. Carpet is fairly safe to use on perching but not for feeding on. Think how much bacteria there is on there after the falcon has ripped apart a chick, then think where the bacteria will be if he gets a small cut on his foot. There is a reason we use astro turf.










This is a falcon waiting to die, absolutely disgusting


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Thanks Hawksport I learned alot from this thread....Jill


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

This is why we need a dislike or "" button


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

hawksport said:


> *First a pic of my male Saker*. Note the leash short and coiled out othe way so it wont damage anything if the falcon bates off the fist. Look how the feathers all lay nice and smooth and have rounded ends.


What a beautiful bird, he looks great. It must be so rewarding when you can train them properly and seeing them in such good health.:thumbup:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Thanks Hawksport I learned alot from this thread....Jill


I'm having a new hybrid falcon around August if the breeding goes well. If people are interested I will do a diary on the day to day management and training and the fitting of furniture (equipment). From collection, through manning (socialisation), basic training and fitness work, right up to entering (hunting). To give people an idea of how much of a commitment they are and how much dedication is needed.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> I'm having a new hybrid falcon around August if the breeding goes well. If people are interested I will do a diary on the day to day management and training and the fitting of furniture (equipment). From collection, through manning (socialisation), basic training and fitness work, right up to entering (hunting). To give people an idea of how much of a commitment they are and how much dedication is needed.


I for one would be interested in that.

That poor bird looks in a right state on the for sale ads.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would be very interested in that Hawksport. It might stop idiots running out and buying one to look cool and it does interest me I would love a kestrel but I don't have the experience or time for one


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I would too. I love Birds of Prey. There was the most beautiful Great Grey Owl at the zoo... Such a poser too. Also I think it was a Steller's Sea Eagle there too... Absolutely massive things. I really love birds, they're massively under rated.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm going to look a bit silly if I lose it aren't I :scared:
Nicky, one of the worst birds you could start with is a kestrel. A big part of training is weight management. The smaller the bird the less margin for error there is. Too heavy and it will disapear without a backward glance, too light and it dies.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I know enough about birds of prey to know I'll probably never get one anyway. They're the only birds Buster's ever been completely calm around even when a burrowing owl, they're teeny, tried to start a fight with him


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Is it true a Harris Hawk is a good starter BOP? And a Red something? Red Tailed Hawk i think


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> Is it true a Harris Hawk is a good starter BOP? And a Red something? Red Tailed Hawk i think


In some ways a Harris is a good fist bird. It's easy to train, although it is also easy to turn it into a screaming imprint. It's adaptable to many different types of countryside being in between the true hawks and the buzzards. It's sociable so it bonds easily to it's owner, don't forget about the screaming. It can hunt well, it can hunt a wide range of quary and it can hunt from the fist, from trees and from a soar. But, being so easy it won't realy teach you a lot. Being so readily available most never reach their full potential.
The Red Taill Hawk which is actualy a buzzard (it's American and they call buzzards hawks) would teach you much more. But is more difficult. Is much less forgiving and handled badly especially around food is more likely to hurt you.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

So is there a "perfect starting bird"? Or is it a case of picking one that suits you?

There so should be a training scheme.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> So is there a "perfect starting bird"? Or is it a case of picking one that suits you?
> 
> There so should be a training scheme.


Either the Harris or the RT is a good start as long as you remember that the step from that to a Goshawk or a falcon is a big one


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

This is all interesting stuff. Always been interested in falconry but had always thought it was only something open to people who had licences. Obviously pointless (to a degree) having one if you are not going to get a licence and use it to hunt. As you said if you want a bird just for the fun/pretty side you are better getting a parrot. So what would you say is the most expensive side to falconry? As the birds are near enough the same price as a parrot etc (guessing female BOP's are more expensive due to size), are the mews (I remember the name for their home from when I was little :thumbup expensive, indeed can you buy them whole or do you build them yourself?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

The females are always more expensive because of the size
The mews can be expensive, no point doing it cheap and having it fall down.
Then theres the telemetry for tracking lost birds down. Lost and found is full of birds that have never been lost before. That starts at around £600 for a decent set.
Then there's the time. If you work a 9-5 job that doesn't leave many daylight hours September to March when most people hunt. So you change your job or you become a weekend falconer whos hawk never realy reaches it's full potential. 
The top falcon here is what I am having this year but a male and 11/16 rather than 5/8 Raptor Propagation Farm - Breeding falcons
Hopefully it will moult into something like this http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/pepper0000/jester001-2.jpg


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> The females are always more expensive because of the size
> The mews can be expensive, no point doing it cheap and having it fall down.
> Then theres the telemetry for tracking lost birds down. Lost and found is full of birds that have never been lost before. That starts at around £600 for a decent set.
> Then there's the time. If you work a 9-5 job that doesn't leave many daylight hours September to March when most people hunt. So you change your job or you become a weekend falconer whos hawk never realy reaches it's full potential.
> ...


What a beautiful bird.

So guess it's the "add ones" that either put people off, or lead to birds ending up in a poor condition/environment due to going for the cheap option so to speak.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> What a beautiful bird.
> 
> So guess it's the "add ones" that either put people off, or lead to birds ending up in a poor condition/environment due to going for the cheap option so to speak.


It's the same as with dogs, some breeders will sell to the first person with a fist full of cash, others will vet people and turn them down if they think they are unsuitable


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

How much do they eat, as in you feed them in a day? I am guessing that it is carefully managed. As in you feed it too much it will not want to fly/hunt.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

That depends on
How much they fly and how many calories they burn
Weather conditions, cold weather burns a lot of calories
What food they are eating, an ounce of rat would be eqaul to 2or 3 ounces of rabbit.
You need to weigh the bird each day before it is flown and fed then keep a diary of how much flying it does, the weather conditions and how much and what food it eats. Then the next day when you weigh it you know what that combination does. Then that is complicated further because as the season progresses the bird builds muscle so the weight it starts at in September in mild weather with no muscle could have it close to death when it's muscled up in Febuary.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Like you said earlier, I guess it's a case of keeping the weight perfect. Too heavy or too light are both going to cause problems.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

That's right and the smaller the bird the more critical it is.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> That's right and the smaller the bird the more critical it is.


Very true.
So how did you get into it? Did you learn off someone?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Some falcons and working pointers for you.
Blood at 3.52 for anyone who is sensetive YouTube - WoodHall Spa 2010

A fit harris soaring YouTube - Harris hawk waiting on


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> Very true.
> So how did you get into it? Did you learn off someone?


To be honest i did it the wrong way. I read books over and over untill I understood what was written and then as much by luck as anything else made a pretty good job of training a male Harris. This was pre internet so there was a bit of an excuse. Now it's not too hard to find someone who will mentor you if you are serious


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Some falcons and working pointers for you.
> Blood at 3.52 for anyone who is sensetive YouTube - WoodHall Spa 2010
> 
> A fit harris soaring YouTube - Harris hawk waiting on


Saw the Woodhall Spa one when it was part of your sig, I used to have my Xmas Parties there lol.

And the other one I watched last night. Really good video of it soaring. :thumbup:


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