# I need your advice, - another 2 dead fish :-(



## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

You can see from my previous post, a while ago one of my Platys died. All my tests were just as always, - fine. I put it down to either bad stock or the holiday block I put in for a week.

I listened to the advice given both by the fish shop guy and here, to not bother with fish blocks in the future and that fish can survive with no food for up to a week. So before we left on Friday to visit relatives, I had a change of water and fed them and left.

I returned today (Monday) to 2 dead fish, - one Platy and one female Endler. Platy looked like was dead for a while but Endler looked "fresher". I could not see any obvious signs of disease but I am a beginner so I might be missing something. 

I checked the water and yet again all tests turned out fine. I am so upset and can not understand what is going on?

Any ideas?


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## scosha37 (Feb 24, 2008)

have you had them for a while? if they are newish fish did they come from same shop and tank? could just be the stock, have you changed there food?


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

The Platy was one of my original fish, got them in the beginning of March after Fishless Cycling.

The Endler girl was a newer addition from Easter (end of March). 

I haven't changed their food. Feed them Tropical Fish flakes twice a day usually, in the morning and in the evening. I only give the tiniest pinch each time and they eat it quickly. Always begging for food.

Change water at least once a week, sometimes twice, minimum of 25% each time.

They all came from the same fish shop. All Platys from the same tank and 2 of them now deceased.  The only surviving one is keeping low.

I noticed that all of the fish are picking with their mouths on the gravel, more than before. As if they were picking food?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Sorry to hear this  It sounds like you're doing the right things, but there's clearly a problem somewhere, which may be with your tank or may just be with the stock, as scosha37 said.

A couple of questions to try to identify the issue:

What method are you using to test the water? And what are your exact readings?

What size is the tank, what temperature are you running at, and what other fish do you have in there?

It can be hard to spot symptoms on dead fish, especially if they've been dead a while, so do any of your remaining fish have any symptoms? Some of the things to look for are:
Clamped fins/tail (held close to the body rather than fanned out)
Thinness/emaciation
Bloating
Swimming at an angle
Sitting on the bottom
Flicking/rubbing against plants/decor
'Shimmying' (kind of wiggling as if they're swimming but without moving anywhere)
White, stringy poo
Tiny white spots like grains of salt
Redness around the gills
Gasping for air
Any marks/discolouration
Loss of colour


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## scosha37 (Feb 24, 2008)

Just to ask have the same sex in platies all female or 1 male 1 female ect as sometimes males hound females so much the die with stress, mybe cut there feeding to once a day, have you got a bottom feeder fish?

Good post NaomiM :thumbup:


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Just wondering, do you have much in the way of live plants in the tank? I was told that instead of holiday blocks to have something like elodea in there to be munched away at. I have seen fish die of starvation. I only suggest this because you said they are hunting the gravel for food - maybe they are hungry? [hmm just read that you feed them twice a day, so maybe not]

Are you changing your water too much? Are you using a tap water conditioner (e.g. Prime) each time you add the fresh water?

Maybe the pH of your water is not good for platys (I might be wrong, but I thought they preferred higher pH, so maybe your water is too acidic? I remember my guppies simply faded away over a few months because the water was too acidic for them).


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## Peapet (Feb 8, 2013)

Obviously you don't know how old the fish were when you bought them, but I could never keep live bearers for very long and I don't have them now. 
Maybe they just don't suit your water.


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

Thank you all for your suggestions and ideas. To answer:

Our water PH is 8.2. It is a hard water. I checked everything very carefully before deciding on the fish and decided those would be perfect for our water. The only thing I can think of is that the water has been set to 24 C which on the thermometer shows 25-27C strangely? So I will reduce the T perhaps? I know Platys prefer cooler water. But still, it was one of the Endlers that died, too.

I can see dark pink around the gills of the white Mickey Mouse Platy, not so much on others but they are coloured. I read about this and some advice says it means healthy gills but some say if red it could be ammonia poisoning however my ammonia level has always been the same at somewhere in between 0-0.25. This is the same as our tap water and the same as the fish shop test I did and has never dropped to 100% 0 level, or it could just be me not reading it right. Anyhow it is definitely not higher than 0.25. So I doubt it is ammonia.

I use Master liquid Test Kit and follow instructions.

The fish behave themselves OK, no rubbing or swimming funnilly. All fins are beautiful, no spots on the fish. They seem to be happy fish to me. Apart from the remaining Platy who likes to be on the bottom more but still comes up for food.

I really can not see any signs of disease. The only worry, as I mentioned, was dark pink around the gills.

So should I reduce the feeding to once a day? Reduce the water Temperature?

I now have 4 babies too btw! They seem very happy, pinching food from the older ones, cheeky buggers! So tiny.. They look like guppies to me but still very small. I am thinking of relocating them to the fish shop but obviously wouldn't be able if my fish keep dying


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

It sounds like it may well just be the stock, but I'd definitely reduce the temp, as higher temps will speed up their metabolism and also reduce the level of oxygen in the water. Somewhere between 24-25 C should be ideal. (Never trust your heater thermostat - mine's set to 20 but the actual temp is between 23 and 25, depending on the time of day!) It might also be worth getting a second thermometer, just to check that temps are accurate.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

What filter are you using in the tank?

How many litres of water does your tank hold?

How many fish have you got in your tank?

How often do you clean the filter and how?

Do you have any live plants in you tank?

What other decorations have you got in the tank?

What do you use to do the fishless cycling?

*Sorry to hear about the loss of your fish.*


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

SanitaG said:


> however my ammonia level has always been the same at somewhere in between 0-0.25. This is the same as our tap water and the same as the fish shop test I did and has never dropped to 100% 0 level, or it could just be me not reading it right. Anyhow it is definitely not higher than 0.25. So I doubt it is ammonia.
> 
> I use Master liquid Test Kit and follow instructions.


I have the same thing with my master test kit - always seems to read somewhere between 0 and 0.25 for my aquaria, and the tap water too (oddly though, not the pond, which isn't even filtered).


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

PetloverJo said:


> What filter are you using in the tank?
> 
> How many litres of water does your tank hold?
> 
> ...


I have a 55L tank, I now have 13 fish altogether (6 guppies, 2 endlers, 1 Platy and 4 tiny babies).

I clean filter 1-2 times a month in the syphoned out water. My filter is a hand me down Fluval 2 (I think).

I have a few live plants, - anubias and the long tall ones and some others, not sure of the names. I also have a driftwood bought from an aquatic shop, a stone and an aeroplane decoration. Plus an air stone.

I used ammonia for the fishless cycling, took me just over 6 weeks.

Hope this helps.


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## Peapet (Feb 8, 2013)

Like others have said its possibly just bad stock. Guppies don't have particularly long lifespan. With most fish males tend to live longer than females.

I would leave it a week or so and keep an eye on the other fish. When you want to add some more fish, possibly look at tetras which should live longer. If the water in your lfs is the same as yours, you shouldn't have problems moving them.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

SanitaG said:


> I have a 55L tank, I now have 13 fish altogether (6 guppies, 2 endlers, 1 Platy and 4 tiny babies).
> 
> I clean filter 1-2 times a month in the syphoned out water. My filter is a hand me down Fluval 2 (I think).
> 
> ...


Nope it doesn't  because you have done everything right.

I agree with others must be bad stock.

I cannot keep guppies, the longest they have lived in my tank is 2 weeks and my tank has been up and running for 5 years


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Aw, I'm sorry to hear that you've lost more fish, it's very disheartening isn't it?  I lost my big, 5 year old ranchu over the weekend, for no reason that I can fathom, so I know how you feel 

As everyone else has said, it doesn't look like you're doing anything wrong, just bad luck and bad stock. I've never kept livebearers, but my sister has and she had no luck keeping them alive either, though her water was perfect and her corys and tetras were fine


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

The reddish edge to the gills is indicative of ammonia spikes.

I would only clean the filter if you have to, I.e. you have noticed a significant reduction in flow.

You may want to consider additional plants, such as Amazonian frogbit (nice floater), vals and maybe even some Marino moss bolls. Ammonia is 'fast food' for plants so the greater the plant mass the more the plants do some do the filtration for you . 

What dechlorinator are you using?


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

I use TapSafe.

I went to the shop they came from and the keeper and I went through everything and he was puzzled too as he said he couldn't explain it. The only thing he could think of was some bacteria so I got eSHa 2000 treatment.

One thing I did realise talking to him is that I had 2 Platy girls for 2 months and only once did one of them was pregnant. According to the shop guy Platys should be pregnant more than that, especially with a male in there too. 

The other thing he suggested was possibly underfeeding as I only give 2 tiny pinches of food a day and left them with no food for 3 days, if they didn't have much reserve they could have died because of that?

I got some more live plants too which hopefully will help.

The gills look the same as the fish in the shop btw. 

Thank you all for your replies. I wasn't aware it was a norm for livebearers not to live long. Not this short time, 2 weeks?...  I can't cope with that.. Should I get some Tetras perhaps?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

You never know how old they are when you buy them, so it's possible it was just old age.

Yes platys are normally pregnant pretty much all the time if they've been near a male. Is it possible they may have given birth without you noticing? I rarely see my fry until they're a couple of weeks old, and many of them get eaten anyway. Also livebearers can sometimes die giving birth. Obviously they'd look fatter if they're pregnant and would have a gravid spot, but the gravid spot can be hard to see in some colour varieties, and if they were already quite pregnant when you bought them, could you have just assumed that was their normal shape? (That's what happened with my first platys!)

I've lost 2 platys and 3 guppies in the 6 or so months I've been keeping them for. The guppies succumbed to a bacterial infection that they came with from the shop, and one of the platys died the first day I got her (just due to stress I think), while the other one died giving birth. If you keep single-sex they're likely to live longer, as multiple pregnancies do weaken the females, but as a breed, they are definitely not as hardy as they once were, due to the amount of in-breeding that's been done to produce the colours and finnage.

It can be pretty disheartening, but it sounds like you're doing all the right things, so don't give up! My water is high pH and hardness too, and I now have platys, guppies, rasboras, neon tetra, and panda cory. The last 3 of those are generally better suited to soft water, but they were in hard/high pH water in the shop, and they're doing fine in my tank. (I did have some problems with the rasboras a while back, but all sorted now. )

So if you like tetras, then go for it (though it's good to ask lots of questions first and research which species will likely do well in your tank), but if livebearers are your favourites, then it might be worth giving them another try.

And btw, it doesn't sound to me like you're underfeeding, unless the fish are looking noticeably skinny, but it's also good to vary the feed. I give them frozen bloodworms and daphnia 2 days a week instead of dry food (half a cube should be plenty with your stock, and defrost it in a jug of tankwater first!)


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

SanitaG said:


> I use TapSafe


Might be wrong but I'm sure TapSafe only removes Chlorine and not Chloramine?

Most water boards add Chloramine as it is odourless and lasts longer than Chlorine. It is a bond of Chlorine and Ammonia and if I'm right about TapSafe then that explains the red gills. Wonder if your fish shop uses the same product?

IMO the best product on the market for preparing your water is Seachem Prime. As well as sorting out Chlorine and Chloramine it has other benefits.

What filter media are you using in your fluval 2?


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

TapSafe (according to the label) removes both Chlorine and Chloramine.

My last Platy is sitting on the bottom looking very sad, I don't expect her to live till tomorrow  She is one of my favourite ones too, so sad.

My Fluval has 2 of the same ordinary spongy inserts. 

If they are going to be dying at this rate I might as well keep the babies now..?


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## Peapet (Feb 8, 2013)

Your lfs probably wouldn't take the babies until they're a reasonable size anyway.
I don't know if you've answered this already, but do you use a gravel cleaner?


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

Peapet said:


> Your lfs probably wouldn't take the babies until they're a reasonable size anyway.
> I don't know if you've answered this already, but do you use a gravel cleaner?


I use a syphon when change water and sort of wriggle it into the gravel. :yesnod:


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

SanitaG said:


> TapSafe (according to the label) removes both Chlorine and Chloramine.
> 
> My last Platy is sitting on the bottom looking very sad, I don't expect her to live till tomorrow  She is one of my favourite ones too, so sad.
> 
> ...


Ah, OK, TBH would still change it though 

Have you thought about a different filter? You can sometimes get second hand externals that work very well on eBay. I had a Fluval 2 when a long time ago and found that the filter media had to be rinsed at each and every water change. This is not so good.


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

My Nitrite levels are steady 0 so I assumed that the filter was doing it's job?

Which filter would you recommend? And if I do change it, how should I do that? I obviously can't just take the old one out as there's the good bacteria in there. Keep them both running for a few weeks?


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## Peapet (Feb 8, 2013)

Unless you've got big messy fish, a fluval 2 should be big enough for 55ltrs. 
Is it a fluval 2plus or the U2?


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## Denise90 (Mar 27, 2013)

If you come to be a total loss of what to do (and personally, I can't see any other reason bar the stock themselves) you could try garlic dosing the tank.. just to give the remaining fish an immune boost and it would help if any of the fish have parasites etc.
We use a clove in our marine tank regularly and it really works wonders. I believe there are products for fresh water, Garlic Guard I think?


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

Peapet said:


> Unless you've got big messy fish, a fluval 2 should be big enough for 55ltrs.
> Is it a fluval 2plus or the U2?


I am pretty sure it is Fluval 2.


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

Denise90 said:


> If you come to be a total loss of what to do (and personally, I can't see any other reason bar the stock themselves) you could try garlic dosing the tank.. just to give the remaining fish an immune boost and it would help if any of the fish have parasites etc.
> We use a clove in our marine tank regularly and it really works wonders. I believe there are products for fresh water, Garlic Guard I think?


I never knew of garlic? Do you just stick a garlic clove in? How long for?


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

I just wanted to mention that tapsafe converts chloramine to ammonia, but if you are fully cycled and your filter is working, hopefully this shouldn't be a problem (pH has an effect on ammonia toxicity too). I would suggest switching to Seachem Prime as it deals with all the nasties. Just make sure you use the correct dose.

How often do you do water changes? I've heard that weekly is best, whether or not that includes cleaning out the filter.

I had guppies for a while, and though everything was fine in my tank they one by one faded away after only a couple of months. They never bred. I guess they are not the 'easy' fish that they are supposed to be.


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

Thank you, I am going to by that Seachem Prime as everyone here recommends it.

I change water, ~25% at least once a week.

I am quite surprised about how short lived Guppies and Platys appear to have become. I thought it would be at least a year before I would loose any


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Agreed, Prime is good stuff, I've recently switched to it myself 

Regarding the garlic, that's also a good idea - just crush a clove and add it along with the juices. Leave it in overnight and remove it the following morning. Even if they don't eat it, the juices will still do them good


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

SanitaG said:


> My Nitrite levels are steady 0 so I assumed that the filter was doing it's job?
> 
> Which filter would you recommend? And if I do change it, how should I do that? I obviously can't just take the old one out as there's the good bacteria in there. Keep them both running for a few weeks?


There's much more going on than that which we measure. It will be doing a reasonable job, but extra filtration has always done me well. As an extreme I ran the internal on the Juwel 300 I had alongside 2 Eheim 2215s.

I'm a big fan of Eheim and you can often buy second hand ones cheapest from ebay. I once picked up a 2213 for £25,

You would simply run both filters for a couple of months to let the bacteria build up in the new filter. It's then up to you if you want to remove the Fluval, you may wish to run both.

You can't have too much filtration (but you can have too much flow)

With your situation I would run Carbon in the filter. Has to be replaced monthly.


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Phoenix24 said:


> I just wanted to mention that tapsafe converts chloramine to ammonia


That would explain the red gills then, ammonia spikes at water changes until the filter catches up

Would suggest that when the OP gets Prime to increase the frequency and volume of water changes for a while.


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## SanitaG (Feb 20, 2013)

Thank you all for your wonderful advice! I have ordered Prime. My Platy seemed happier at dinner time so crossing fingers she recovers. X


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