# Submissive behaviour?



## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

HI, we have an 18 month old rescue border collie cross, we've had him for about 6/7 weeks now. He is absolutely lovely - a dream to take out with perfect recall... he is very gentle and well behaved but to the point of being very submissive for want of a better word.

He is always pestering us to scratch his chest; chiefly by standing on his hind legs and pulling our hand towards him - he won't take no for an answer till we scratch him! We are trying to ignore this behaviour though as he is standing up all the time and it can be dangerous if you're making a cup of tea or something! He also does it when we are sitting in the chair in the living room. We are turning away, arms folded and ignoring him. He does get the message eventually and goes and lies down. 

Anyway - the submissive part - when he greets us if he isn't standing on hind legs (not jumping at us, just standing like a meerkat!), he collapses to the floor... very floppy.... and rolls over on his back. In the evenings if he is sitting by us and we stroke him, he literally collapses to the ground - sometimes if he has been sitting up on his haunches trying to get us to scratch him he will fall backwards - as though his backbone just isn't holding him up (which of course it is)!

He constantly exhibits this type of behaviour; we have been told that he had been badly treated during the first 16 months of his life and we are putting it down to that - there is absolutely no aggression in him whatsoever but for want of a better word, he 'fawns' over us all the time. Constantly seeking attention.

Even when we greet him in the morning, when he gets up from his bed, he creeps along the ground at us as though he has done something wrong - maybe he is expecting us to shout at him? Echoes of previous bad treatment?

If anyone has any thoughts on this kind of behaviour we would be delighted to read them. We love him to bits but the continuous fawning and flopping does become a bit wearing!

Thanks.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

You are, I think, doing the right thing by ignoring him, though it must be hard to resist. I would imagine the crawling along the floor when you greet him is what he has become used to; someone having a go at him for something or the other when he really hasn't a clue what he has done.

As to the rolling over and wanting his tummy scratched, Ferdie does the same and no one has every ill treated him. My retriever used to do the same, just loved to be scratched. I don't think this is anything particularly to worry about, but you need to stop him going up on his hind legs as he could knock someone over. Just a firm down and a treat straight away should be enough to get that message across.

He sounds like a really lovely dog and it is criminal when a dog like this, who only has love to give, has been badly treated. Once he settles down and realises that he is loved in return, he may become more confident.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks Newfiesmum - yes he really is a lovely dog; he won't leave us alone for one minute in the evenings especially, as we sit in the living room... he paws us all the time and if he realises he won't be touched if he stands on his hind legs, he sits up on his haunches and 'holds' our outstretched hand. He usually then begins to flop down to the floor... this is all the time unless we give him a chew.

I think he knows now that he is in his forever home with unlimited love and affection, but we cannot get him to stop fawning all the time. He sits on command but we cannot get him to learn 'lie'. Tried and tried but no luck yet.

The other thing is, he never barks or whimpers; not even if he is accidentally hurt (someone stepped on his foot this morning by accident but not a sound!). He doesn't even whimper to let us know he needs the loo. He got caught short the other night and we woke up to a horrid mess in his crate.

Maybe he has been told off for barking. His history? He was dumped by an Irish farmer as 'useless' but the farmer had mistreated him we think - we know he has been hit in the past and cowers if we so much as raise a voice.

He is gorgeous, well behaved and lovely on the lead - we just would like to get round this excessive submissiveness really. We have been used to having dogs wanting their tummy tickled but this is more than that.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

The flopping over is an appeasement behaviour not submissive (hate that term!). When rubbing him and he does it, it may just be becoming a learned behaviour.
His sitting up (meerkat like) may well be a default distress position, my dogs' is a tight sitting position but I have seen many dogs with a sitting pretty default in situations that they feel are a little too much.

I think there is a more urgent and serious issue here, that of his worry and lack of confidence. His constant need to be by you, touching you and having you touch him is indicative of insecurity and lack of confidence.

Teaching him how to be calm is super important and how to be alone, at least to not worry if he can't touch you is also vital for this fella.

Look into introducing some Ttouch work for confidence boosting. Basic manners training is also super for this. Teach him to play tug properly - great for confidence, bonding and manners training (and fun!).

Mat work is a great way to teach him to relax and be a bit more independent; more here: Calming Exercises for Cerrrraaaazzzzzy Canines: settle & mat work « pawsitive dogs

When he pesters you, turn away and if that doesn't stop him, stand up and walk away from him, withdraw for about 10 seconds (say nothing to him, no eye contact). When you return ask him for a behaviour, such as sit or whatever, and then reward him with a 2-5second tummy rub. 
Teach him an alternative way to _earn_ attention and also teach him that its ok to be ignored e.g. using matwork for example.


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## I love labs (Aug 14, 2010)

We have a rescue dog A lab we named Dan. We got him at about a year old. Dan is also very submissive. if we raise our voice for whatever reason his ears go down and his hole body sinks. Dan also rolled on his back a lot when we first got him . He hadn't had much training because he was a mad thing on the end of the lead pulling us every where, bouncing like a black spring when we took him for a daily walk. He was very hyper when out. 

We seem to think he was abandoned because he was picked up by a dog warden and when we got him he was very thin, he didn't look much like a lab then. you could see all his ribs and his back bone.

Dan has now been with us for 3 years and is a fab lab now:thumbup: he still rolls on his back for a tummy tickle but now he looks relaxed when he rolls over and dosn't sink to the floor for the slightest reason.

Just give your little dog time and lots of love and he will relax in time.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks Tripod and I Love Labs.

There are times in the evenings and during the day when he will curl up quite happily and sleep; sometimes he does it in the hallway, or in his crate in the kitchen; he is also happy to be left in the crate if we go out to the shops or somewhere for an hour or two - so he doesn't suffer from separation anxiety and he must feel confident enough in the home to relax like that.

I shall look into the mat training, thanks for that tip; we already do ignore him, turn away etc to stop him standing up on hind legs - when we stop the ignoring and turn back, we can tummy rub him but then as soon as we stop that, he will stand on his hind legs again, trying to physically drag our hand to his chest to rub him again.

We tried the tug thing - no dice. He just won't do it and cowers if we try to make him do it. Obviously thinks he is going to get roughly treated. He is not a rough dog at all in fact, SO gentle.

He will do anything for food though - good in a training situation! Although he seems obsessed with food to be honest. Always looking for treats but it has helped when we first got him and took him out.

We have had him about 6 weeks, the rescue centre had had him 3-4 weeks and said that when he arrived he was so frightened that if anyone (literally) looked at him, he wet himself. 

As I write this he is outside in the garden playing on his own, throwing a ball around and chasing it; a really happy, changed dog - like you say, I Love Labs, in time perhaps all this needy behaviour will be a thing of the past. Like yours, he was very thin when we got him but he is putting on weight now and looking alot better.

I suppose it is just a matter of time and some work put in, to stop him acting like a meerkat (when you push him down, he doesn't go down, he stays on his hind legs and backs up! LOL!) If we tell him to sit though he does so immediately; looking for a treat.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> Thanks Newfiesmum - yes he really is a lovely dog; he won't leave us alone for one minute in the evenings especially, as we sit in the living room... he paws us all the time and if he realises he won't be touched if he stands on his hind legs, he sits up on his haunches and 'holds' our outstretched hand. He usually then begins to flop down to the floor... this is all the time unless we give him a chew.
> 
> I think he knows now that he is in his forever home with unlimited love and affection, but we cannot get him to stop fawning all the time. He sits on command but we cannot get him to learn 'lie'. Tried and tried but no luck yet.
> 
> ...


He sounds a lovely dog and I really don't think you have too much of a problem. IMO that isn't 'excessive submissiveness' especially given his history. When I sit down in the evenings all my collies immediately grab a toy each and expect me to throw it behind the sofa. Quiver particularly will nudge my hand (much like your dog) if I dare to stop throwing her toy. They just want attention but when I've had enough I just say "right time to lie down now".
Its very easy to teach your dog to lie down: just get him in the sit in front of you with a titbit and using another titbit very slowly lower it from his nose between his front paws and as he hits the deck say "down".

Hope this helps.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Twiggy said:


> He sounds a lovely dog and I really don't think you have too much of a problem. IMO that isn't 'excessive submissiveness' especially given his history. When I sit down in the evenings all my collies immediately grab a toy each and expect me to throw it behind the sofa. Quiver particularly will nudge my hand (much like your dog) if I dare to stop throwing her toy. They just want attention but when I've had enough I just say "right time to lie down now".
> Its very easy to teach your dog to lie down: just get him in the sit in front of you with a titbit and using another titbit very slowly lower it from his nose between his front paws and as he hits the deck say "down".
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks Twiggy - he is lovely, you're right and we love him to bits. We have tried to teach him to lie, in exactly that way you describe but have yet to get him to cotton on! He doesn't react by lowering himself and hitting the deck - just sits bemused and trying to get the treat! We have had collies before, this one is a collie cross.... not half as intelligent as the others so it is a longer process but we will hopefully get there in the end!


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> Thanks Twiggy - he is lovely, you're right and we love him to bits. We have tried to teach him to lie, in exactly that way you describe but have yet to get him to cotton on! He doesn't react by lowering himself and hitting the deck - just sits bemused and trying to get the treat! We have had collies before, this one is a collie cross.... not half as intelligent as the others so it is a longer process but we will hopefully get there in the end!


Well cheat then!! Have you got a low table? Have him one side and you the other with a tasty treat - stick your hand with the titbit under the table and say something like "look what I've got, get it" and again as he drops say "down". If one method doesn't work, there is always another one that will....


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

that's a great idea - thanks, I will try it!
:thumbup:


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## Dans Mum (Mar 5, 2010)

Our 3-year old rescue collie, Dan was like this when we first got him 6 months ago. We couldn't look at him or go near him for days at home - but like yours he is a wee greedy guts and will do anything for a treat.

We teach him - or try to - a new command every week and between this and our reassurance he is gaining confidence slowly.

He is still petrified of kids - kids on bikes or with footballs, but he is really coming on well.

Keep doing what you are doing and his confidence will build slowly but surely. He sounds lovely!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> We tried the tug thing - no dice. He just won't do it and cowers if we try to make him do it. Obviously thinks he is going to get roughly treated. He is not a rough dog at all in fact, SO gentle.


This is a Border Collie, if I remember. An idea to build the dogs confidence, along lines that tripod suggest.

Have you tried tying a line to the tug toy and luring him into chasing it?

He may not actually pounce on it, but point (giving eye). If he shows interest, positively reinforce, sound happy, give treats, whatever. Just getting it moving ought to trigger his interest.

Usually movement is irresistable.. if it works then it's another step to making a more confident collie. They love to chase things, and like a nice tidy "flock" of toys, so perhaps using line to pull it away from other play objects, would help trigger the desired behaviour.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi,

Just wanted to say that I have had my little terrier x from 9 weeks. She is a v submissive little soul especially around other dogs. Runs from any kind of confrontation and will panic if she doesn't understand what you are asking of her. Nothing has ever happened to make her feel this way and we have always be very considerate towards her disposition.

It would appear that some dogs can be this way inclined in the first place so although yours has had an unfortunate past, it may be that he was a v sensitive soul in the first place 

Sounds like he has really landed on his feet with you and found the forever home he deserves. I am sure in time he will reward your kindness 10 fold


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

You can shape a dog to tug - I did with mine and he is a tug-a-holic now 

Here's some more on teaching games: Dogs just wanna have fun « pawsitive dogs

Tugs Eye View w/Rufus: Tug's Eye View « pawsitive dogs


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks all - been away from the computer for a day or so.

Thanks for all the tips and the kind words - they mean a lot and gives us lots of ideas to try!

Paddy is doing fine - we're over the moon with him! We wish he would make a sound now and then, particularly when people come to the door, but maybe that will follow in time.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> We wish he would make a sound now and then, particularly when people come to the door, but maybe that will follow in time.


We'll look forward to the "How Do I Stop Him Barking" thread


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> We'll look forward to the "How Do I Stop Him Barking" thread


:lol:
Don't hold your breath! :lol:


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