# Lhasa Apso with dermatitis - anyone help?



## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

Hi there, just joined hope you can help me - pleased to meet you all :smile:

I have a six year old Lhasa Apso. About two years' ago out of the blue he started getting flaky skin which progressed into smelly crusty scabs along the line of his back, worse around his tail area and buttocks and a bit dotted here and there on his chest. He literally smells like he's rotting from the inside out, it's pretty disgusting. 

I tried Malaseb shampoo bathing twice a week but that didn't really make any difference so took him to the vets who did skin scrapes and biopsies which all came back (after me shelling out hundreds of pounds) as negative for all the bad stuff and he was given a diagnosis of dermatitis (helpful ).

He was given antibiotics for four weeks and steroids and some more shampoo and spray and the skin condition completely went, along with the bad smell. His fur looked really shiny and stopped falling out with the scabs. However since I weaned him off the antibiotics the smell and scabs have returned.

I am due to take him back to the vet for his booster injection next week but I do wonder where I go from here. I've googled it to death and most of these type of skin things dogs get seem to go hand in hand with a terrible itch. My dog doesn't seem bothered by it. He hardly scratches at all. To be honest if it wasn't for the terrible smell i'd be inclined just to persevere with the twice weekly baths to keep the scabs to a minimum.

I have change his food this week from Bakers (which i've heard is terrible but he's been on all his life) to Fish 4 Dogs. I have also purchased a bar of Dermacton soap as i've read that that is good.

Do you think as a management technique the vet will just be able to give me antibiotics every now and again and then to keep on top it it with teh shampoo/trying different dog foods etc?

The vet did mention expensive allergy tests but I really don't have the funds to go down that route as the insurers won't pay out now.

Any advice welcome! Thanks


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I hope someone comes along to help. It's not something I've had to deal with 
It's sometimes quieter on a Friday on here so worth checking back over the weekend if you don't get any help tonight.


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## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

Okay, thanks for the reply, hopefully someone will come along soon who has/has had a similar experience


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

OK, when you say it flared back up again after you stopped the antibiotics, was this when you stopped the steroids too?

As I am sure you know steroids suppress the immune system. Therefore your dog is still facing whatever is causing the issues, the steroids just stop his body from developing the issues. The only problem with steroids is that recurrent use can damage the immune system permanently, also causing other problems.

My golden retriever has had worsening skin issues (he develops rashes on his groin or just gets very itchy and causes sores by biting at himself) and was on daily steroids because short courses helped but came back when he came off them. After just four months of steroids every other day he developed pancreatitis. This is something that steroids put them more at risk of (some vets will say not, but many say it does).

I have never used the shampoo you mention but do you EpiSoothe. Is your dog very itchy or is it the visible skin problems/smell which appear most troublesome? Bathing mine with Episoothe gives him relief for up to a week or so, my vets have said its perfectly fine for him to be bathed as often as needed and they actually recommend twice a week.

Now, in terms of your insurance! I had a referral to Cambridge Vet's Hospital. I paid a £150 deposit and the rest they claim direct from the insurance, then reimburse you. Is this something you may want to look at?

Worst case why not ask your vets if they will accept a direct claim via insurance if you have claimed before and know they pay out for this condition? My vets have recently agreed to let me claim anything in relation to Rupert's dermatitis direct from insurance, ie. I order and pick up medication and give them an insurance form! Its great 

My boy has had all the applicable tests they can think of and they cannot get us an official diagnosis. For him it is a matter of finding a maintenance regime which does as little as possible to harm him in the future.

One thing, please, please, think very carefully and discuss with your vet about giving your dog their booster in their current state. I have not, and will not vaccinate Rupert again until we know what is wrong with him. Unwell dogs have a dramatically increased risk of having a reaction, and if your dog does have an autoimmune problem a vaccination could be disastrous 

You can always get a blood (titre) test to see what levels of immunity your dog has. 95% of vets I ask have told me to vaccinate Rupert anyway, but my current vets and those at the specialist school agreed it was inadvisable. He has not had a full set of boosters since Oct 2009 and it will stay this way until we know exactly what his condition is.

We have a fantastic member on here who knows so much it is unbelievable, hopefully she will be along soon


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Kezz said:


> Hi there, just joined hope you can help me - pleased to meet you all :smile:
> 
> I have a six year old Lhasa Apso. About two years' ago out of the blue he started getting flaky skin which progressed into smelly crusty scabs along the line of his back, worse around his tail area and buttocks and a bit dotted here and there on his chest. He literally smells like he's rotting from the inside out, it's pretty disgusting.
> 
> ...


Bakers could be a lot of your problem as its full of carbohydrates they also add various forms of sugar, and the what they refer to as animal derivatives isnt even a constant source of meat protein, it can be any meat that they source.

It sounds like from his symptoms he could be suffering from yeast overgrowth Candida Albicans is present naturally in the gut, in a healthy dog with good gut bacteria and normal immune system, the candida albicans is kept to a minimum.
if something goes wrong however the candida albicans which is classed as both a yeast and a fungus can run riot and take over. You do get dry flaky skin, really offensive skin odour and general odour and crusting, so the symptoms do fit. Candida Albicans and other yeasts feed off carbohydrates and sugars and as Bakers has added sugar in several forms and high in carbs could well be a lot of the problem.

Interestingly too you can get secondary infections bacteria ones are common, and the condition does respond to steroids and ABs while they are on them, but as steroids suppress the immune system and ABs kill off good gut bacteria needed for a health digestion as well as bad and both the immune system ang good gut bacteria help keep the candida albicans at tolerable unharmful levels, then once off the steroids and ABs it usually re-occurs even more and with a vengence, whilst they mask the symptoms while on them they are also killing off and suppressing the immune system the bodies natural defence.

There are things that you can do, like avoid feeding foods that have high grain and cereals, sugars and carbohydrate. Use supplements to the diet. Stop using steroids and antibiotics, also use a good pre and pro biotic added to the food to encourage good bacteria in the gut.

There are other natural things that you can do too. Ive managed to find a really good article on the subject that gives you other things like coconut oil to add to the diet and explains in full all about candida albicans and yeast infections
http://www.tristateweimrescue.org/storage/Coconut Oil.pdf

Dog Yeast Infections (Dog Candida) | Causes and Symptoms of Dog Candida | Natural Rinse for Yeasty Dogs

There is also another condition though that can cause all the symptoms he has too
Dermatologic Diseases
dry, scaly skin and dandruff / coarse, dull coat / bilateral symmetrical hair loss / rat tail, puppy coat / hyperpigmentation / seborrhea or greasy skin pyoderma or skin infections / myxedema / chronic offensive skin odor

This is a condition called Hypo thyroid where the thyroid gland doesnt make sufficient thyroid hormones so they have to be replaced in tablet form. This can cause may wide any varying different symptoms, for full other clinical possible signs
Clinical Signs of Canine Hypothyroidism

If after food changes and other things it doesnt work then may be worth having the thyroid profile one its a specific blood test that has to go off to an endocrine lab.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

If it is a yeast allergy then garlic may be worth adding to his diet. You would need to add quite strong levels but do a bit of research because it can cause problems if you overdo it.

I spent years suffering with a yeast allergy and being treated for IBS. One I found the problem, strong garlic and whole grapefruit killed the overdose and now I just need to be careful I dont overdo my yeast intake. I take garlic everyday.

I'm not sure dogs can have grapefruit but I think Apple Cider Vinegar may be another good thing to try both internally and topical. 

Def avoid as much cereal as you can.

That's of course, if it is a yeast infection.


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## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. 

I was convinced it was a yeast infection due to the smell and the fact that it's quite sticky but the vet says it's dermatitis and has done numerous skin scrapes and biopsies which cost me a fortune and says not.

I'm assuming that as he doesn't scratch the scabs that it doesn't irritate him either but as he can't tell me I don't know. 

The vet gave him antibiotics and steroid tablets which I gave him over a four week period. The antibiotics then finished and I was told to wean him off the steroids but keep a few back just in case. I stopped the steroids the same time as the antibiotics as I was dubious as to whether they were doing any good as was told they would help with the irritation (but he doesn't seem irritated by it).

Within four weeks the flakes and scabs returned along with the smell so I started on the steroids again for a week to see if it made a difference. It didn't and so I assume that it was the antibiotics that temporarily cured him.


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## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

oh and I can't claim anything on my insurance because i'm only on a one year per illness policy and because I mentioned to my vet last June that he was a bit flaky they refused to pay for all the biopsies and skin scrapes I had done in August


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Kezz said:


> oh and I can't claim anything on my insurance because i'm only on a one year per illness policy and because I mentioned to my vet last June that he was a bit flaky they refused to pay for all the biopsies and skin scrapes I had done in August


Yeah, my boy's sores weep a fair bit if he gets bad ones.

In that case I think you need to find a decent maintenance programme for your dog, tests in regard to these issues can very often be inconclusive. I would definitely look at food, Bakers could be contributing to the problem substantially. There are threads in the Dog Health and Nutrition section here about good dry and wet foods 

Be wary of suddenly stopping steroids, they should be weaned off from. What sort of dose was your dog on? My golden is down to 2.5mg pred every other day at the moment.


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## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

I've just changed his food from Bakers to Fish 4 Dogs complete but only the last week, i've been mixing a bit of Bakers in with it because he won't eat it just yet and going to slowly stop the Bakers as he gets used to the new stuff. 

I'll try this for a few weeks to see if it makes a difference to his skin. I've also ordered a bar of Dermacton soap to bathe him in as i've heard this has had fantastic results for some skin conditions. 

Thanks for the tips, it's a hellish condition to control isn't it?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Kezz said:


> I've just changed his food from Bakers to Fish 4 Dogs complete but only the last week, i've been mixing a bit of Bakers in with it because he won't eat it just yet and going to slowly stop the Bakers as he gets used to the new stuff.
> 
> I'll try this for a few weeks to see if it makes a difference to his skin. I've also ordered a bar of Dermacton soap to bathe him in as i've heard this has had fantastic results for some skin conditions.
> 
> Thanks for the tips, it's a hellish condition to control isn't it?


It is, yes. I would do a patch test with the Dermacton first too. I used the cream on my golden retriever and it made the sore I tested it on 10 times worse


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## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

I've just taken some photographs of the scabs....bear with me.


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## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Kezz said:


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Bless, look at that face 

I should have said also, I clip the fur off my golden retriever around the sore/scabby bits in order to chuck cream on! As yours is general scabby/itchiness I don't know how successful it would be, but my vets prescribe Fuciderm gel.

Also, my lad is on Moxxor oil capsules. They have amazing reviews but are pricey. I believe you can get a trial and get your money back if it does not help though, could that be worth a go? My boy is getting two of those daily and then his 2.5mg pred every other day too, hoping to wean him off the steroids altogether and just have him on the Moxxor.

You can get regular omega 3 etc but unless it is cold pressed a lot of the goodness is not there. Or you could always try something like the Fish4Dogs salmon oil and see if that helps him too!


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## Kezz (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks for the tips Goldenshadow, I will have a look at those capsules. I suppose it's a case of trying one thing and then eliminating it if it doesn't help. In the meantime my house smells just lovely!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Another thought along the yeast lines - if you think it could be the prob make sure you dont feed anything with Brewers Yeast


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Saw this thread on here the other day and was very impressed:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/178104-dermacton.html

I'm going to get some for those just in case times when the mosquito's start biting, don't need to worry for a while now though. 
Dermacton - Skin Relief for Dogs with Itchy Skin

ETA - Also this http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/241712-dermacton-wow.html seems a miracle worker!


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