# Early neutering (again)



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Popped into a newly opened vet practice this morning. A vet who I know, like and has treated my cats previously when he worked at my current practice before just recently opening his own. 

The reason for popping in to chat to him is that I knew he was willing to undertake EN from 12 weeks old but, talking to him today, have found that he's actually only performed EN on one kitten previously.

It feels like a bit of dilemma. Can I ask those of you who already EN what their thoughts are and if there was anything specific you discussed with your vet when embarking on EN.

Many thanks.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I didn't discuss with my vet but I know she does a lot of EN for the local rescue. A discussion to see if they understand the differences in anaesthesia and so on might be in order.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

I early neutered my first litter of Devon Rex last year - Devons are quite small kittens and they were from memory around 1.2kg when they were done. my vet has previous experience with the Celia Hammond trust and is very confident neutering down to 800grammes so I had complete confidence in her.

Cats vary so much breed wise, am I right in thinking your British could be approaching 2kg by the time they are 13 weeks? I think I would ask your vet what weight he as neutered down to as opposed to what age, but tbh honest I wouldnt be happy to let someone EN my kittens who didnt have a lot of experience. My kittens last years bounced back within a couple of hours. Whereabouts are you based, my vet is in Green st Green in Kent - I dont know why seem to thing you are fairly near me?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks, OS. I'll go back and talk to him about that. He seemed more preoccupied this morning with asking me, in relation to possible post op infection, how long after being neutered the kittens would be going to their new homes. Reflecting on my conversation with him he was definitely erring on the side of not wanting to do it until 12 weeks but not at the same time as final vac's - i.e. they would be neutered a few days after vac's. I'm thinking, if I decide to go ahead with this, new homes at 14 weeks?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

wicket said:


> I early neutered my first litter of Devon Rex last year - Devons are quite small kittens and they were from memory around 1.2kg when they were done. my vet has previous experience with the Celia Hammond trust and is very confident neutering down to 800grammes so I had complete confidence in her.
> 
> Cats vary so much breed wise, am I right in thinking your British could be approaching 2kg by the time they are 13 weeks? I think I would ask your vet what weight he as neutered down to as opposed to what age, but tbh honest I wouldnt be happy to let someone EN my kittens who didnt have a lot of experience. My kittens last years bounced back within a couple of hours. Whereabouts are you based, my vet is in Green st Green in Kent - I dont know why seem to thing you are fairly near me?


Whilst I don't want discredit him and his capabilities, it sort of concerned me that he was talking a good game but obviously without the experience. He was one step ahead of me on the whole issue of early neutering being good, safe practice, it being commonplace in some other countries, that many shelters EN and the reasons why and so on. It's just the actual experience of doing it he lacks. He is otherwise an experienced vet, having been in practice for about 15 years.

My male kittens would often be a little upwards of 2kg at 12 weeks with females a little less so weight/size wouldn't be an issue.

Not sure roughly where you are? I'm in a village about 5 miles south east of Ashford.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Any of my friends who do early neuter tend do so about a week after second vaccinations and kittens then leave around 14 or 15 weeks.

From discussions on the subject I got the impression the actual surgery isn't difficult, it is the protocols for anaesthesia which matter to the vet. That said, I can't be sure this isn't just a reason vets give for not wanting to do it. I had 'discussions' galore with my last vet who never flinched at spaying a ferret but always gave it as the reason he couldn't EN kittens - go figure


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Just realised where you are. Bit of a trek unfortunately as we're right down in the south east corner, almost on the coast.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Any of my friends who do early neuter tend do so about a week after second vaccinations and kittens then leave around 14 or 15 weeks.
> 
> From discussions on the subject I got the impression the actual surgery isn't difficult, it is the protocols for anaesthesia which matter to the vet. That said, I can't be sure this isn't just a reason vets give for not wanting to do it. I had 'discussions' galore with my last vet who never flinched at spaying a ferret but always gave it as the reason he couldn't EN kittens - go figure


Thanks, Havoc. Certainly seems like it's the anaesthesia aspect I need to talk to him about. And this is the point where I start wondering how offended he might be if I present to him the literature I've found on the subject!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes, it's the anaesthetic issue and the timescales as in what time in, what time out. My lovely vet neuters a few days after 2nd vac, they can go a few days after that if they are OK so at 13 weeks or a few days over.

However it's also the overall management that matters.

With both litters I took them at about 9:45 (she only does booked ops on a Tuesday starting at 10:00 after morning surgery) and collected them by about 12:00 (5 kittens each time) and they were back home eating pronto - by 1pm. They are also starved less than cats, from about 6am AFAIK, certainly not overnight. If he is talking about starving overnight, keeping in all day and so on steer clear.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Yes, it's the anaesthetic issue and the timescales as in what time in, what time out. My lovely vet neuters a few days after 2nd vac, they can go a few days after that if they are OK so at 13 weeks or a few days over.
> 
> However it's also the overall management that matters.
> 
> With both litters I took them at about 9:45 (she only does booked ops on a Tuesday starting at 10:00 after morning surgery) and collected them by about 12:00 (5 kittens each time) and they were back home eating pronto - by 1pm. They are also starved less than cats, from about 6am AFAIK, certainly not overnight. If he is talking about starving overnight, keeping in all day and so on steer clear.


I shouldn't be surprised (but tend to be because I am arrogant enough to think I'm often more up to date on the 'latest' just because vets are too busy to read!) but he was saying that recent studies have shown that the post op morbidity and mortality rates are higher with patients who have been starved for the traditional, longer period of time than for patients starved for shorter periods. He said he would recommend withholding food for 3 hours pre op and offering food as soon as they're awake, up and about.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I shouldn't be surprised (but tend to be because I am arrogant enough to think I'm often more up to date on the 'latest' just because vets are too busy to read!) but he was saying that recent studies have shown that the post op morbidity and mortality rates are higher with patients who have been starved for the traditional, longer period of time than for patients starved for shorter periods. He said he would recommend withholding food for 3 hours pre op and offering food as soon as they're awake, up and about.


Think it's a good sign (NOT time!) he's not into overnight starvation. Would be interested to know what the studies are!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Would be interested to know what the studies are!


Me too. I'll pick his brains on that when I next pop in there.

It's the best and only realistic option Ive had so far for EN; will just have to discuss it some more with him.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Also he doesn't operate in splendid isolation. I feel a lot depends on the vet nurse helping him - if she is experienced with paediatric patients.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

If you trust the vet in other aspects of his practice then I think trust his judgement with this. Everyone has to start somewhere in terms of experince and unless he is a very rogue vet, I'm sure he wouldn't 'attempt' EN at all, if he didn't feel he was very capable enough to do so! And becoming a vet involves a massive amount of very hard study and exams - they don't just read a textbook and then head out into practice.

Most vets (I'm sure) would have experience with anaesthetics from a wide range of animals - from small rodents right through to large dogs. My friend's vet has operated on her pet rat with no problem.

Re: size - my local vets EN a kitten as long as it is at least 800gms (for the local animal shelter where I volunteer) - which roughly equates to 8 weeks. But it's the weight of the kitten rather than its age that determines when the kitten is 'ready'.

vets are professionals. Yes, here are probbaly some out there that are Cowboys and take huge risks but the vast vast majority wouldn't be so uncaring and gun-ho, and DO treat each animal as if it were there own. 

I also think it's a massive assumption thinking 'vets are too busy to read' - like any other health professional I'm sure they extend their expertise by further study. I'm at a loss sometimes as to the mistrust of vets in genreal on some of these threads.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

MightyMouse88 said:


> If you trust the vet in other aspects of his practice then I think trust his judgement with this. Everyone has to start somewhere in terms of experince and unless he is a very rogue vet, I'm sure he wouldn't 'attempt' EN at all, if he didn't feel he was very capable enough to do so! And becoming a vet involves a massive amount of very hard study and exams - they don't just read a textbook and then head out into practice.
> 
> Most vets (I'm sure) would have experience with anaesthetics from a wide range of animals - from small rodents right through to large dogs. My friend's vet has operated on her pet rat with no problem.
> 
> ...


It is difficult to disagree with 'they have to start somewhere in terms of experience' but human nature dictates we prefer that experience to have been gained elsewhere and not practised on our own animals. In a life or death or emergency type situation, nobody is going to walk away because the vet or doctor has 'only performed it once'. The choice of whether to EN or not is far from that scenario and, as such, a situation that allows me the luxury of 'walking away' should I choose to do so.

You might be very surprised at how many vets choose not to extend their expertise or keep themselves up to date and EN happens to be a perfect example of how wrong you are. If EN is the wonderful thing it is purported to be (and I'm sure it is) why have a large percentage of vets in the UK never heard of it, have never performed it or won't perform it? Clearly, they have a lot of catching up to do.

But thank you for your input.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

as i said - if you trust your vet in other aspects of practice then that ought to be a pretty good indication he / she probably knows what he or she is doing. i can't say I've ever questioned any vet I've seen as to if they might be good enough to do an operation on my pets. never entered my mind. even if it was a new grass, i would trust they know what they are doing. as OS said - few vets operate / work in solitude.

if you haven't met this vet before, then i understand you would want to meet with them and get a 'feel' for how you feel about them; but i just don't think most vets - as in general - are gun go-ho and would take risks on operating on pets if they didn't think it was a very high chance or success, or they had the abilities to do so.

aren't vets in the job because they like / care for animals? and are bloody bright and intelligent … form what i understand the vet degree is harder and take smote skill than to become a medical doctor, as there are waaaaaaaayyyy more different 'species' and biological systems to know incredibly well.

can't say about EN in the UK - although it does seem its a very new thing there … its been done where i live for quite a few years - i don't know of any vets having turned people away if they want it done, although of course, i don't know all vets in my city

(hmm thinking about it more - yep, id trust a new vet over a new doctor any day)

EDITED to add - *isn't one of the members on here a vet?* would be interested in hearing what she / he says about it - if she/he has done it herself, and if so, was it that hard / did it require much extra training (if any) to do one?

guess I'm struggling to see why it would be that much more complicated… smaller kitten… smaller biology, some consideration as to the type of anesthetic or sedation … but other than that??? of course, it might seem very complicated to us, as lay people, but to a confident vet, i don't see the biggie??? its not like the vet has to learn a brand new animal or anatomy … i suspect other than the size, and needing smaller suture threads, the anesthetic dosage would need to be adjusted and of course, there is some risk with that - but i would think most vets would be perfectly capable to adjust and do it just fine.

wouldn't it just be the same surgery on a smaller scale??? hmm maybe they practice on dead kittens first (i know is awful but thats how i got to do some of my vet nursing (years and years ago).. draining an abcess and dressing it, in one example poor puss… maybe vets do the same, for new procedures..?


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

Early Spay / Neuter How Young is too Young?

if you scroll down to the 'are there any risks' it goes on to explain a few of the concerns people might have (anesthetic isn't one of the biggies - hypoglycemia and hypothermia are) - and the best idea yet:

*WANT TO EN ADN YOUR VET WONT?*

*if your local vet won't do EN, go to your local animal shelter and ask them*

if they are like my local animal shelter, all kittens and puppies are EN before being sold  800gms for kittens they will keep the kittens there until they gain enough weight so they CAN be done before being re'homed. AND, they use the local vet..

so might be, ask your local animal shelter, and if they do EN, find out which vets do it for them, and they ought to be able to do it for your kittens ..

AND no worries about experience animal shelter vets will get HEAPS due to high volume of numbers in the shelter

surely the *animals shelter's *in the UK DO do EN???????


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

i question my very experienced vet all the time - no one person can know everything and small animal vets cover several breeds. I am probably a big pain in the arse to her but after a similar experienced vet killed one of my cats with what he eventually admitted was a "mistake" in choice of drugs I dont blindly give my cats anything without researching it first. My new vet is fantastic and very tolerant of me and is quite open about the fact she cant keep up with everything despite 27years as a vet, so is open to new ideas/research if I bring something up that she hasnt heard of. Yes, vets are highly intelligent well read people, but all people make mistakes sometimes.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> surely the animals shelter's in the UK DO do EN???????


You mean like my vet who does EN for rescue organisations but not for private clients?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> i question my very experienced vet all the time


So do I, certainly no less than I would discuss diagnosis and treatment options with a doctor. I wouldn't expect a GP to carry out major surgery on one of my children either but vets tend to be generalists rather than specialists. I'm sure there are very experienced vets who know they aren't the best surgeons either through straight ability or lack of experience in certain procedures. I'd far rather one was honest on that score if they didn't feel confident.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MM88, would you let a surgeon who had only done the op once before operate on your child when it's elective? I include everything in operate - pre-op care, anaesthetic, op, post-op care. If you don't have children use your imagination.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

MightyMouse88 said:


> hmm maybe they practice on dead kittens first


Must confess to not having read the whole of your post the first time but have just noticed the above. Through all the discussions about EN it has to be the most crass thing I have read. I almost cannot believe I am asking - when you wrote that, did you not consider the stark and obvious differences between operating on a dead animal and a live one?

I hardly ever resort to being rude but there is something about your posts that makes me want to be.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm happy to neuter early. I've been doing so for about a year, and we started mainly because we now provide treatment for a large local cat rescue and neuter their kittens. We also do EN for a local Raggie breeder and I'm happy to do so for any owned cats as well. I tend to recommend spaying from 3-4 months as routine for owned pets, but we can do it earlier if needed.

I've never found any differences in anatomy or technique. It's a simple surgery in the vast majority of cases. I do all my spays flank even though many suggest going midline for the little ones. I find that too tricky and it takes me too long to find the uterus.

I advise starving for 3-4 hours tops. We use the quad protocol for GA, and we are very big on maintaining body temperature during GA for all patients anyway, but especially for the little ones. Our protocol works great, the kittens all recover well and - *TOUCHES WOOD!!!* - I've not had a complication of any kind with them.

Unfortunately, nobody can gain experience without actually doing something.

And I put in at least 6-8 hours' reading a week. I do my best to keep up with things, but there's too much info out there to know everything!


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

havoc said:


> You mean like my vet who does EN for rescue organisations but not for private clients?


Yes - I was wondering if it was done at all, anywhere in the UK.

How come your vet won't do it for private clients?


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Must confess to not having read the whole of your post the first time but have just noticed the above. Through all the discussions about EN it has to be the most crass thing I have read. I almost cannot believe I am asking - when you wrote that, did you not consider the stark and obvious differences between operating on a dead animal and a live one?
> 
> I hardly ever resort to being rude but there is something about your posts that makes me want to be.


I mean in terms of practice - yes as I said - when I was training to be a vet nurse, using deceased animals was part of learning out to do things. It's not uncommon! It wasn't exaclty 'fun' but it was one way of learning. Of course operations would be differnt, but wouldnt be surprised if vets didn't learn this way. I sure as anything bet it was part of their studies while training to be a vet -just as medical doctors and other health professionals learn on cadavers.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> MM88, would you let a surgeon who had only done the op once before operate on your child when it's elective? I include everything in operate - pre-op care, anaesthetic, op, post-op care. If you don't have children use your imagination.


Yes I would. why? Becasue like vets, I do not think the vast vast majority of drs are Cowboys and don't give a crap about their patients, and woudnt want todo harm. And - they would not be doing it without superiviosn or without other drs (experinced ones) to help.

And with neutering - it's just not that complicated a procedure - ESP boys. Even a spay would be pretty routine and by far one of the less complicated ops.

*Far less complicated or risky than a csection* - if you would trust yur vet to do an emergency cseciton on your cat, then not to trust them doing a neuter doesnt make sense, IMO.

Is part of the issue that (some) breeders just do not want todo EN, so look for excuses not to? (Geniuine question here)

*Shoshana* answers the concerns pretty convincingly - heck, I've never met her or know a thing about her - but id trust her with my pets - even for a first time op for her.

As she said- everyne has to start somewhere. I'm willing to bet the first few cats, she didn't kill thm or make massive life threatening mistakes (??????:blink

*Shoshana *-maybe a new side adventure for yr practice - do travelling vet clinic especiallyforENs and then the breeders on here might rust YOU to do the ENs  (after you have been interviewed and interrogated of course)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I wouldn't take my kittens to a travelling clinic. I don't want a long drive back to wherever the have come from in the unlikely event of something going wrong


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

True - good point. I know the SPCA where I am does actually have a bus that does ops for reduced prices (might even be free).... I haven't heard abt it fora while so not sure if its still around ... Not sure how they managed post op care .... Can't imagine they sent the cats / dogs home right after though?

Anyways ... It was a bit of tounge in cheek suggestion


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Becasue like vets, I do not think the vast vast majority of drs are Cowboys and don't give a crap about their patients, and woudnt want todo harm.


Do you know throughout this thread, and especially your posts in this vein, there's been one thought won't leave my head. In supposedly civilised countries it's still deemed OK by vets to encourage and carry a most barbaric procedure for no good reason ie declawing. There are thousands of vets perfectly happy to do harm and there are thousands of pet owners who wish they hadn't put such blind trust in such 'professional' opinion.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shoshannah said:


> And I put in at least 6-8 hours' reading a week. I do my best to keep up with things, but there's too much info out there to know everything!


I hope I didn't offend you. I know there are many, many vets out there who do their utmost to keep abreast of things. One of them is the owner of the newly opened practice I mentioned who always seems to be on the ball.

i think we have to accept though that some vets just don't. I don't need (most usually) my vet to be an oracle on all things feline but on more than one occasion I have been taken aback when discussing (or rather trying to discuss) certain things with him. The last two things that stick in my mind are, coincidentally enough, EN. Won't bore with the whole conversation but he simply refused to believe that, apparently, it is done fairly widely and is good, safe practice. Another thing that comes to mind was the issue of possibly not needing to vaccinate all cats yearly, past their kitten vac's and first yearly booster. How long has this been a topic for discussion? It has to be at least several years. His answer was "I've never heard that, no, not at all. For dogs maybe, but definitely not cats". And he gives me the look that says "you've been reading silly things on the internet again, haven't you?'.

I think I know why. He runs his own very busy practice. He rarely has a proper day off and even when he does, living across the road to the surgery, cannot resist going into the surgery to check on things. He does all his own out of hours work and is called out on more nights than not. I seriously doubt he has the time or energy to read a cornflake packet over breakfast, let alone anything else.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I hope I didn't offend you. I know there are many, many vets out there who do their utmost to keep abreast of things. One of them is the owner of the newly opened practice I mentioned who always seems to be on the ball.
> 
> i think we have to accept though that some vets just don't. I don't need (most usually) my vet to be an oracle on all things feline but on more than one occasion I have been taken aback when discussing (or rather trying to discuss) certain things with him. The last two things that stick in my mind are, coincidentally enough, EN. Won't bore with the whole conversation but he simply refused to believe that, apparently, it is done fairly widely and is good, safe practice. Another thing that comes to mind was the issue of possibly not needing to vaccinate all cats yearly, past their kitten vac's and first yearly booster. How long has this been a topic for discussion? It has to be at least several years. His answer was "I've never heard that, no, not at all. For dogs maybe, but definitely not cats". And he gives me the look that says "you've been reading silly things on the internet again, haven't you?'.
> 
> I think I know why. He runs his own very busy practice. He rarely has a proper day off and even when he does, living across the road to the surgery, cannot resist going into the surgery to check on things. He does all his own out of hours work and is called out on more nights than not. I seriously doubt he has the time or energy to read a cornflake packet over breakfast, let alone anything else.


No offence taken whatsoever.  He sounds overworked.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

havoc said:


> Do you know throughout this thread, and especially your posts in this vein, there's been one thought won't leave my head. In supposedly civilised countries it's still deemed OK by vets to encourage and carry a most barbaric procedure for no good reason ie declawing. There are thousands of vets perfectly happy to do harm and there are thousands of pet owners who wish they hadn't put such blind trust in such 'professional' opinion.


Sometimes it isn't as black and white as that (in terms of awful practices such as de-clawing). Take docking dogs tails for example - I knew an absolutely lovely lovely man who had been a vet for 30 years. He was absolutely against this non necessary practice and it was defintely against his morals or ethics. HOWEVER - he was often put in the horrible position of needing to go against what he believed in becasue it wasn't uncommon for scum dog owners to simply say 'well if YOU won't do it, I'll do it myself!' - in barbaric and INCREDILBY painful ways for the dog.

I imagine that in (some) cases de-clawing might be the same issue - perhaps the cat would suffer more if it wasn't done - ie be at risk of being abused or dumped in the countryside.

Same with vets putting to sleep perfectly healthy animals - owners bringing in a middle age dog and demanding it's put to sleep becasue they got a new puppy or want a new puppy - nothing wrong with the older dog, and the owners refuse to let itve rehomed - if the vet won't do it, they will. (Yes, I saw this very scenario more than once!).

*Sometimes vets have to do things against their own beliefs for the overall welfare of the animal.*

*Shoshana * - I'm not sure how long you've been a vet? But has ther been cases where yve needed to do some against your beliefs / ethics; becasue not doing so was going to result in something crueler for the animal? ( I don't blame you if you don't want to give specifics, because you might be open to huge judgement).

Again - I have no doubt there are some awful vets out there who don't give a toss - but I don't beleive it's a widespread thing. The hours and decision it takes to train to be a vet; the financial losses (due to far too many pet owners not paying the vet bills), the long hours, the being on call - needing to put animals to sleep (and not always because they are sick) - if vets didn't care I don't think they could keep doing what is a really demanding, often exhausting, and emotionally draining profession.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> I hope I didn't offend you. I know there are many, many vets out there who do their utmost to keep abreast of things. One of them is the owner of the newly opened practice I mentioned who always seems to be on the ball.
> 
> i think we have to accept though that some vets just don't. I don't need (most usually) my vet to be an oracle on all things feline but on more than one occasion I have been taken aback when discussing (or rather trying to discuss) certain things with him. The last two things that stick in my mind are, coincidentally enough, EN. Won't bore with the whole conversation but he simply refused to believe that, apparently, it is done fairly widely and is good, safe practice. Another thing that comes to mind was the issue of possibly not needing to vaccinate all cats yearly, past their kitten vac's and first yearly booster. How long has this been a topic for discussion? It has to be at least several years. His answer was "I've never heard that, no, not at all. For dogs maybe, but definitely not cats". And he gives me the look that says "you've been reading silly things on the internet again, haven't you?'.
> 
> I think I know why. He runs his own very busy practice. He rarely has a proper day off and even when he does, living across the road to the surgery, cannot resist going into the surgery to check on things. He does all his own out of hours work and is called out on more nights than not. I seriously doubt he has the time or energy to read a cornflake packet over breakfast, let alone anything else.


See - if that was my vet i would not be comfortable with him - *not* becaue of him not doing the things you describe but because of his abruptness and being dismissive.

If you're not comfortanoe with him then - you need to change vets. Even if it means driving further distances.

Although it sounds like it's not an issue as to if you will allow HIM to EN becasue he doesn't do it or believe in it - so a moot point perhaps.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

MightyMouse88 said:


> *Shoshana * - I'm not sure how long you've been a vet? *But has ther been cases where yve needed to do some against your beliefs / ethics; becasue not doing so was going to result in something crueler for the animal?* ( I don't blame you if you don't want to give specifics, because you might be open to huge judgement).


Yes.

I always said I never would put to sleep a healthy animal, but actually when you're out there in the trenches it's not always that simple. When it happens, it is not done lightly.

It has become easier with time to refuse to carry out something I'm not comfortable with. As a new graduate, the pressure - real or imaginary - on you from clients and colleagues is heavy. These days I can think of more ways around situations, and have more resolve to refuse something if I don't think it's right.

Nearly six years qualified now.

I do not dock tails, personally, and if declawing was legal in this country there is absolutely no way I would do it, point blank.

Declawing is babaric and I have my own (very strong) views on the veterinary professionals who perform it, but I'm unsure of its relevance in generating our opinions of the profession in the UK.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> I'm happy to neuter early.


I wish you were in practice nearer to me <sobs> :crying:


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> MM88, would you let a surgeon who had only done the op once before operate on your child when it's elective? I include everything in operate - pre-op care, anaesthetic, op, post-op care. If you don't have children use your imagination.


I work in a medical setting with the youngest of babies and the doctors motto for any procedure is 'see one,do one, teach one' scary but true! 

Perhaps the same goes for vets.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

MollyMilo said:


> I work in a medical setting with the youngest of babies and the doctors motto for any procedure is 'see one,do one, teach one' scary but true!
> 
> Perhaps the same goes for vets.


Remember, depending on the experience of the vet, you are not doing these 'new' procedures right off the bat. There is a foundation there.

The first time I did a cystotomy, for example, nobody talked me through it. It was just me and the nurse. I'd seen two or three before, but never done one or assisted with one. But I knew the principles, so I just got on with it and it was fine. No issues whatsoever.

If someone had handed me a scalpel two days into the job and said, "here you go, do the cystotomy," I'd be like: "er..."

But doing it after a few years' experience of other surgeries, you have the confidence and knowledge to apply to a new procedure. That's not to say you can't or shouldn't ask for assistance, and you should always know your limitations, but I don't think it's a major thing for an experienced surgeon to move from neutering to early neutering.

The GA and peri-operative care considerations are more important but, again - kittens in for neutering are not the only small or paedriatic patients vets see.

I'm not a fan of surgery, personally. Some people love it. I would rather squeeze fifty anal glands than remove a foreign body from an intestine!


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

well there you go - thank you *shoshana* i hope your replies help those who worry about vets in general and not having 'practice' and not know what they're doing, and too busy to read up and learn new things  i think its incredibly admirable you don't take offense, cos honestly, some of the derogatory comments about vets - I'm talking in GENERAL, not specific examples - well, it offends me on the behalf of vets.  yes, breeders know a lot, and yes, I'm sure in terms of breeding and genetics, they would have more knowledge than the average vet - BUT - i think its a far cry to then think one knows more about cats or veterinarian practice in general than a qualified, well trained vet!

its good you haven't docked tails - as i said, the very experience vet i talked about above felt he had no choice at times - he was told on no uncertain terms if he didn't do it, the owner was going to do so with a sharp knife :scared:. i have no idea if declawing is legal or not where i am. certainly haven't heard of it being done.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

MightyMouse88 said:


> See - if that was my vet i would not be comfortable with him - *not* becaue of him not doing the things you describe but because of his abruptness and being dismissive.
> 
> If you're not comfortanoe with him then - you need to change vets. Even if it means driving further distances.
> 
> Although it sounds like it's not an issue as to if you will allow HIM to EN becasue he doesn't do it or believe in it - so a moot point perhaps.


I'm very 'comfortable' with him. As Shoshannah said, I have no doubt that he is overworked but as far as I can possibly tell this has never affected his professional abilities. The fact that he often doesn't seem up to speed on certain issues has, so far, not caused me any great problem.

What IS important to me is that I like him enormously. He is one of the most caring, generous of spirit individuals I have ever known and in 30 years of breeding I have never met a vet with his level of compassion and dedication.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm very 'comfortable' with him. As Shoshannah said, I have no doubt that he is overworked but as far as I can possibly tell this has never affected his professional abilities. The fact that he often doesn't seem up to speed on certain issues has, so far, not caused me any great problem.
> 
> What IS important to me is that I like him enormously. He is one of the most caring, generous of spirit individuals I have ever known and in 30 years of breeding I have never met a vet with his level of compassion and dedication.


Awesome - so there you go; if you trsut him and like him - you are with the right vet for you then. Perhaps he has a recommendation of a colleague who DOES do EN ... Or another vet in his practice???


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