# Agressive puppy



## clpeltz (Aug 2, 2010)

Hello. This is my first post and I am hoping for a bit of advice. I got a male shi-pom in May (Gizmo). He is a sweet little thing and after a few months, I decided to get another shi-pom as a companion. I got Carly at the end of July. Currently Gimzo is 4 1/2 months and Carly is 3 months old. For the first couple of weeks, they had been getting along just fine. Training has been going good. Recently (the past week or so), Carly has become increasingly more aggressive. Whenever my children go to pick her up she will growl and snap at them. She gets into vicious fights with Gizmo. There has not been any blood drawn yet, but she is very loud with the growling. When I pick her up she will growl and fight to get away. I am stumped. I don't want to have to give her back to her current owner, but I am not sure if this is going to work out with her. They are both scheduled to be fixed at the end of September. She seems to be doing a lot of resource guarding, especially from Gizmo. She will growl and snap at him if he comes close to her when she is playing with something/chewing on something. At mealtimes, she seems to be dominating Gizmo--pushing him out of his food dish. They each have their own food dish, but she will go back and forth between the dishes, pushing him out. He doesn't really fight back, just sits back and waits until she is done. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Chris Peltz


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm not an expert in dogs by any means but I know it's usually considerd not such a good idea to introduce another pup until the first is at least 18 months old, it's difficult to train 2 together and for it to actually sink in.
Firstly I would make sure the fighting you describe is actually fighting and not just play...puppies play can sometimes sound really nasty, Penny is nine months old and when her brother comes to my house to be groomed they go mad rolling around / puppy biting, and it sounds like they're proper snarling at each other, but they really aren't it's just puppy play, believe me if they wanted to fight properly there'd be blood.
I would strongly advise puppy classes aimed at families where there are 2 such young pups because trying to train one pup is difficult at times, 2 can end in them ignoring you and learning off each other, I wouldnt say it can't be done but i would say it is hard work and the more help the better.
The food thing is natural if they're protecting their own food but training will help one trying to dominate and steel off the other, again, it's a case of getting the right training.
Sorry i cant be of much help but this is from my experience and I hope it's a little useful at least, someone will be along soon who knows a lot more no doubt...there are members who have similar age pups who have successfully trained on here so hopefully there'll be some useful info there 
Good luck
Clarexx


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

clpeltz said:


> For the first couple of weeks, they had been getting along just fine. Training has been going good. Recently (the past week or so), Carly has become increasingly more aggressive. Whenever my children go to pick her up she will growl and snap at them. She gets into vicious fights with Gizmo.


Have you consulted the vet to check health issues? Talk about the behaviour problems, perhaps you can get a referral to good behavourist on the pet insurance (I'm crossing my fingers you have that).

It seems to take a couple of weeks for a dog to settle in to a new home, and with that confidence their behaviour and manners can appear to deteriate.

Frankly, this sounds different from the usual puppy nipping type issues, so if you have read this right, and it's not playful behaviour, on the spot expert help is best.

A friend had to have her spaniel put down eventually over guarding issues, it came as a rescue pup at 4 months, and went untreated for too long so the problem steadily got worse (aggressive guarding behaviour towards the male owner).


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Hi Chris, welcome to PF 

A lot of dog-dog guarding behaviour can be considered 'normal' dog behaviour. But in very young puppies such as yours and between male and female, coupled with the handling issues I would think that there is more to it.

Feed the puppies separatley so as to be sure they each get what they are supposed to.

Dogs as a species do not naturally enjoy being hugged, picked up, restrained, cuddled etc. - this is uncomfrotable for them and Carly is expressing her dislike in a not so subtle way.
This is worrying as her normal subtle distance increasing signaling has been ignored and she is forced to growl and snarl - the other polite requests of distance have been ignored.

No more picking up until you are working through a handling program to teach her/both of them to enjoy handling. Obviously no interaction with children unless you are in durect supervision and no more picking up by kids. It will take much work to get to a point where the puppies are comfortable with this.

Have you got these two babies in a puppy class? I would highly recommend that you do, especially considering their mix. They need lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of positive interactions in all sorts of scenarios with all sorts of people and dogs.

Get Jean Donaldson's book MINE! and an APDT trainer to help you work through the guarding programs. This is urgently needed as nothing escalates in dogs like guarding - food guarding from each other and the handling issues are part of the same issue - there is a guarding tendency here so urgent positive intervention is urgently required.

Best of luck


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## clpeltz (Aug 2, 2010)

Just a little update.....Took Carly to the vet yesterday to rule out anything medical. She checked out fine. I had a long talk with the vet (he is the best!) and we think we are dealing with a stubborn alpha female. He said that the dogs have to work it out amongst themselves and I need to start training with her so that I am the head dog, lol. So, I am currently finishing up puppy training with Gizmo and then I'll get her in. Thanks for all of the replies. Hopefully I can get her to settle down quicklyl


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Your children should not be picking these puppies up. I`m not really surprised they`re objecting to it. How would you feel being grabbed by a giant? :scared:
Having 2 pups of similar age means they are likely to bond to each other instead of you, so make sure you spend time training them individually. 
As youngsters, you need to teach them bite inhibition, and good manners. Any good puppy book will give you tips for this. 
In the meantime, teach the children how to lure the dogs to them with praise and treats rather than taking hold of them.
And change your vet. That is the biggest load of bull I`ve heard for a long time. 
A tiny puppy is not an `alpha female`. The puppy isn`t even sexually mature yet and she`s certainly not a wolf. 
Here`s a couple of good articles:- 
http://www.fun4fido.co.uk/blog/debunking-the-dominance-myth.html
http://doggonesafe.blogspot.com/2009/04/wolf-packdominance-myth.html


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## Paddy Paws (Jul 11, 2010)

I'd get an appointment or referral to a behaviouralist if you want this to work out.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

clpeltz said:


> Just a little update.....Took Carly to the vet yesterday to rule out anything medical. She checked out fine. I had a long talk with the vet (he is the best!) and we think we are dealing with a stubborn alpha female. He said that the dogs have to work it out amongst themselves and I need to start training with her so that I am the head dog, lol. So, I am currently finishing up puppy training with Gizmo and then I'll get her in. Thanks for all of the replies. Hopefully I can get her to settle down quicklyl


I'm sorry but what qualifications in behaviour counselling has your vet or any general vet? A GP would refer you to a psychiatrist or cousellor for such advice and a GP vet should do the same.
They receive next to no (that's almost zero) education on behaviour when studying to be a vet and unless he has done extra quals on behaviour he should not be giving this advice.
I presume that, due to this advice, he did not do a behaviour-compatible exam? Of course I wouldn't dare say whats what from a medical point of view but there are very basic things that are done when presented with behavioural issues....

The advice he has given you is out of date, inaccurate and potentially dangerous in so many ways. I am not at all ranting at you but I am very annoyed at the so called behaviour advice given to you. I am immersed up to my eyes in two very very serious cases that I have on my books currently due directly to downright irresponsible advice given by two different vets. This really frustrates and angers me , I am so sorry for going off on one


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## clpeltz (Aug 2, 2010)

Anne--what would you suggest? I am currently doing clicker training with both of them. They both do very well with eye contact and responding to their names. I am working on sit now and they are doing well. I really need to work on wait and stay. I am starting a puppy class again on Sunday and hope to get more out of that. I have looked into a couple of home trainers--bark busters and superdogs in our area (I am in Minnesota in the US). I am just now sure what to do and don't want to plunk down hundreds of dollars for something that won't work. I would appreciate any direction. I have been a cat owner all of my life. These are the first pups I have ever had, so this is a new world to me, but I love it!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Hi Chris, again I apologise for going off on one there, it was not at all directed at you 

Have a look at the TDF trainers list to find a positive trainer in your area: Truly Dog Friendly » Truly Dog-Friendly Trainers

A life long cat owner? Wow two young pups must be quite a change for you 

Here is Dr Dunbar's Before and After You Get Your Puppy for free download: Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily (scroll down a little). These will give you lots on basic puppy stuff and are the surviving-puppyhood-bibles!

Its great that you are working on basic manners and clicker training - keep it up thats super :thumbup:

Separate them for meal times so that there are no issues there.

Do a little resource guarding work with Carly so that she is more likley to pay you attention when Gizmo has some resource.
Have puppies on either side of a baby gate. Sit with Gizmo. Very obviously, offer a yummy treat to Gizmo and as soon as Carly notices give her a treat, regardless of what she is _doing_. 
The idea here is that Carly learns that everytime Gizmo gets something, she better go to you for her something nice!
You can up this by actively playing with Gizmo, e.g. fetch or tug, and toss a treat for her after interacting with him etc.

That is not to say that some competitiveness over resources is not natural, normal and necessary dog behaviour - it is! And dogs are _supposed_ to derfer to bitches in relation to most situations involving access to resources.
Some posturing and ritualised signaling is normal. 
But this is not about alpha or any of that - alpha refers to the breeding pair and thats it!

If she growls or otherwise when he approaches make sure he listens to her and responds appropriatley - giving her distance.

Work on crate training your puppies so that they have a safe, calm place to spend time apart from one another and from you. Spending time apart is important for pairs of dogs so that they can cope with this should the need arise.
More on crate training: Calming Your Cerrrrraaaazzzzzy Canine: Crate for Calm « pawsitive dogs

Get your kids involved in training exercises. Show them how to deliver treats after each click for example. Teach them how to lure the puppies into position so that they can move them without having to touch them or pick them up. Kids make excellent dog trainers, obviously with constant adult supervisioin.

Work on cues to teach the puppies to go to a certain place or to follow you etc. so taht there is no need for confrontation and stress (ie picking them up).

To work on handling start with the easiest bit that the dog can cope with. If they show no signs of discomfort, in the form of distance increasing signaling such as lip licks, stiffening, whale eye, head turns, averted gaze, freezing, growling etc. start at that point. If they show any of these signals start from further away.
Have a bowl full of yummy treats (Gizmo may even work for his kibble but if he shows discomfort with an area being handled then use higher value treats). 
If Gizmo is happy for you to touch his back, for example, but is uncomfortable with you touching his feet start at the furthest point from his feet that he is comfortable with.
Play touch4treat: touch the area and then immediatley feed from the other hand. Repeat until the dog is anticipating the treat arrival after you havet touched him.

With Carly it will probably be slower as she has already developed a discomfort with handling and her subtle discomfort signaling has not worked so she goes to growling, snapping etc.
The idea is the same though. Sit with her in a relaxed setting - not necessarily a formal training scenario. Have your bowl of high value treats ready and start by touching any area she is happy with.

Have her wear a house line (but only when supervised) so that you can move her if you need to quickly and can't otherwise entice her. This way there is no need to pick her up until you are at a point in your program that she will be able for that.

Here is more on handling work: G-g-g-g-g-g-grooming part 1 « pawsitive dogs
and 
G-g-g-g-g-g-grooming part 2 « pawsitive dogs

It is vital that these puppies get to an off leash puppy socialisation class ASAP as they need to interact with other dogs or different types and ages so that they being to learn how to respond properly to doggie signaling. Puppy class is also vital for the socialisation ops it should provide.

Here is more on doggie signaling for you to learn to speak dog!:
This one especially important for the kids so that they learn how to speak dog and give the dogs distance if they ask for it: YouTube - Speak Dog

I like these as they are nice and clear:
YouTube - Zoom Room Guide to Dog Play Gestures
YouTube - Zoom Room Guide to Dog Body Language

Any more help or queries feel free to get in touch


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## clpeltz (Aug 2, 2010)

Thank you SOOO much Anne! I really appreciate it!


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