# My two kittens won't go out



## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

I have two kittens both 10 months old and a 6 year old cat
The older cat has now going outside alot and I've tried getting the kittens to go out but they stay by the front door for a while and one hides behind the bins while the other hides in next doors porch and at times they cry and when I open the door they both run in scared they have learnt to go out the door on their own but never leave the doorstep the tabby/White one it's very nervous and gets scared on the wind and I've carried her to a neighbour few doors down and she was really shaking the black/White one has started hissing and attacking the other two even walking over to them ad throwing a hissy fit have no idea why she's being like this she's grown up with both cats all her life even the vet doesn't know why she's doing it,
It's driving us mad ,

Any ideas on how to get the kittens to go out further instead if the doorstep? It's been 5 days and I've never had this problem with my other cats I've had before


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Is it essential that they go out? Perhaps they would rather be indoor cats? I WISH my cats refused to go ourdoors.


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

I don't mind them being indoor cats but I live at home with my mum and she said they have to go out or I will have to find sumwhere else to live  so have no choice


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Firstly do you think your mum really would throw you out if your kittens stay in or is this just something she's saying as a way of getting you to do something?

Secondly, have you actually talked to your mum about why she is worried about the cats staying in?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

mand82 said:


> I don't mind them being indoor cats but I live at home with my mum and she said they have to go out or I will have to find sumwhere else to live  so have no choice


Why do the cats have to go out.Are they only to be allowed in the house at certain times.It sounds to me that these two cats will be at risk if they are forced to go out,they obviously are not equipped for outdoor life.Not all cats are able to cope with the stresses of the big wide world.Hopefully your mother will realise this and not force the issue.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

are they both neutered? just have a litter tray indoors and you clean it, problem solved!
why is it driving you mad? They are frightened aqnd going outside for the first times should be supervised and a gentle 2mins in the garden, building up over weeks until they can be alone for 30mins, you dont just open the front door and get annoyed when they are scared out of their lifes...


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

Ooooh can you not talk your mum round?
My kitten is 6 months and we haven't decided if we will let him out or not yet, but lets just say I would LOVE IT if we went with letting him out and he decided he didn't want to. 
Try and have a talk with your mum and see what she says.

Good luck!
Sparkles
x


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## Shimacat (Feb 14, 2010)

If the kitties are frightened and stressed by going out, PLEASE don't force them to do this. You will only terrify them. Some cats just don't like going out, and your mum should realise this. Please speak to her and try to get her on side. 

Why does she want them to go outside? Is it a litter tray issue? Litter trays needn't be smelly - in fact, they shouldn't be smelly at all.


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

My mum isn't a animal person she will stroke and be nice to the cats but as soon as they have been bad she will shout at them etc
If she had her way the house will be animal free
She doesn't want them to stay in doors all the time as the kittens have got to that stage were their very hyperactive all the time and climbing up he curtains ripping wallpaper off the wall clawing the sofa and carpet jumping all over the worktop knocking stuff off shelves and jumping in the glass table
My mum said she would let me get the two kittens if i promised that they will go out along with my older cat I wanted to wait till the kittens were 12months then let them out but mum wanted them out this month 
Both kittens have been neutered and microchipped 
I put them outside in small time bits an stay with them so they can get used to it and put them out on their own with the door shut for a few mins to try help them get used to it but they don't seem to go away further then the front door or the bins and as soon as we open the door run in the tabby/White one gives the feeling hat she would rather be a indoor cat and sleepon the sofa and get loads of hugs and kisses then go outside she's a lil princess 
Mum told me she would kick me out if the kittens don't go out like the other cat and if I get kicked out I would have to give my cats away as I can't look after them if I have to live on the streets  I love my 3 cats so much their my world they always come first at times I have had to starve instead so they could have food all the time , mum thinks I spoil them too much as u always put them first and make sure they know i love them so much


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi, Mand,

Cats are unpredictable and when you take them on, you never quite know what you will get. You cannot force a cat to go out if its instinctive behaviour is to stay inside. 

Cats aren't 'good' or 'bad'; they don't think in the same way that we do and aren't capable of choosing between a 'good' and 'bad' option. It might hep if you and your mum can stop labelling them as 'good' and 'bad' and think in terms of instinctive behaviour, some of which is inappropriate for indoors. It is possible to redirect behaviour. Maybe your kittens would like to have a cat tree to climb and to scratch. Do they have lots of toys? Re the jumping up, you need to make sure there are no rewards for them on the worktops - no food, nothing to play with, and no water or dirty dishes in the sink for them to lick. If they keep doing it you could try putting a tin of pebbles on the edge of the counter so that when they jump up the tin falls and makes a noise which they won't like.

I think you need to sit down and talk to your mum about this. Explain to her that you will try to redirect their play at home so that they don't stress your mum out so much, but also explain that some cats take a long while to get used to going outside and that some never do. It sounds to me like your mum is used to being in control, and she's finding this a bit hard. If you have a plan she might feel a bit happier. Also explain to her why your cats are so important to you, if she isn't a cat person she might not understand that to you they aren't just possessions.


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

My mum knows how much the cats mean to me and that I think of them as more of family then pets and I have a big stratch post tons of toys and play with the cats all the time and I never label my cats good or bad as to me all 3 are equal and can never do anything wrong in my eyes as I know they don't mean it


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## Romania Animal Aid (Feb 19, 2011)

I opened my back door a little over a year ago and there was a small kitten that just toddled in and has stayed ever since.

She won't go any further than my back yard. She does all her business in her tray, even though the tray is right by the back door and it's open for her to get out when i'm in the house. Even last summer when I sat out in the back and the door was open a lot of the time, she stays in side. But, she's a very happy cat none the less.


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## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

Agree with most of what has been said
I think you are in a difficult position and really need to sit down and talk with your mum.
I would try and meet her half way, by making sure you take full responsibility for their care,etc .BUT I really feel that these kittens should NOT be forced out into a big scary world at such a young age .You stand a very good chance of them being run over or worse-perhaps disappearing because they know they will only be able to stand and your door and cry and you wont let them in.

.Would she want them out during the night as well? 

I have 3 cats,2 aged 14 and 1 aged 6.Two have ALWAYS been indoor cats. 


The other one had a routine every morning of going over our back garden fence,into next doors garden ,round to the front and back to our front door,This took about 5 mins and he was fed when he came back.The rest of the day he was happy to stay in.

One day he went on the road ,I saw him, but ,before I could get to him he was run over-I cant tell you what that was like ,both for him and for us.
He had to have major surgery his jaw reconstructing and re wiring.
He doesnt want to go out now ,not that I would ever let him again!!!

I know your cats mean everything to you,but I would seriously think about whether you are doing right by them-I would not want you to go through what we did when 1 of ours was run over.
If your mum is being like this ,why on earth did she let the kittens stay in the 1st place?
By the way how old are you-you mention about your mum threatening to throw you out so you cant be very young.
Hope you can solve this problem,but your mum seems very adamant that she doesnt want them in the house.Good luck
from Maureen


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

If I had my way my cats would never go out as I worry to much about them when they go out I had a cat before when I was living on my own in liverpool along with the older cat I still got and I let them outside after a few weeks and one decided he didn't like it and walked off further I think he wanted to go back to the last house down south and that was the last I saw if him till 4 weeks later when u got a call to say he had been run over and I had to put him down which was he hardest thing I've ever had to do and since then I wouldn't let my other cat out due to fear that it would happen again my oldest cat hasn't been out since he was 2 years old and his nearly 7 years old now and his started goig back out as I moved back home I was hoping he would show the kittens the rope like and hey would follow him as they was all happy together inside but it didn't work out  mum doesn't mind the cats inside during the day so they can have food and have a sleep but she wants them out at night I di everything for my cats like change the litter tray and feed them etc mum doesnt do anything. But she thinks just coz it's her house that she gets to say what my cats can and can't do and also what u can and can't do
My older cat was just having a hissy fit with a cat outside and it's night time and my mum just told me off for opening the door she told me just to ignore it but how can I it's loud and wake the neighbours and my boy is upset coz of the other cat on his garden nicking his food


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Can I ask an obvious question? Why did you get more kittens? It seems madness to me. The poor little loves.

My advice here would be for you to find a place of your own, where your kitties can live happily indoors if they choose to. Besides, booting them out all the time means it's less time for you to spend with them.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Can I ask an obvious question? Why did you get more kittens? It seems madness to me. The poor little loves.
> 
> My advice here would be for you to find a place of your own, where your kitties can live happily indoors if they choose to. Besides, booting them out all the time means it's less time for you to spend with them.


thats what I was thinking, I thought that you were about 15/16 but you said that you have lived alone before? maybe its time to move out, shouldnt have got the 2 kittens in the first place, but they are there now and its up to you, you are they owner/mum they rely on you for everything, and if they dont want to go out (and you Cannot force them) or you cant do it slowly like I suggusted on the page before this, then I dont know, if you cant move out you said that your mum will put you on the streets if the kittens dont go outside?? your have to end up re-homing them I guess?


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Mand, I'm guessing that the 82 means you are 28/29?

I don't know your circumstances but I agree that if you want to keep your cats you would be better off finding your own place if at all possible. Years ago it was the norm to shut cats out at night but cat owners are much more aware of the risks now.

I still think you need to have a chat with your mum. Giving such a big ultimatum over what is really quite a trivial thing makes me wonder if there isn't a bigger issue underlying this that has nothing to do with cats - unless it is just hot air on your mum's part.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I have to say that when you said your mum wants the kittens to go out I honestly thought you meant during the day,which was harsh enough on kittens/cats that didnt want to go out,but to put them out overnight is just plain dangerous.If you cant reason with her then ,if it was me I would have to either move out or find another home for them.


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## Shimacat (Feb 14, 2010)

buffie said:


> I have to say that when you said your mum wants the kittens to go out I honestly thought you meant during the day,which was harsh enough on kittens/cats that didnt want to go out,but to put them out overnight is just plain dangerous.If you cant reason with her then ,if it was me I would have to either move out or find another home for them.


Couldn't agree more. Does your mum want all the cats out all the time? If so, and you agreed to those conditions being imposed on kittens before you even got them, you've been a bit irresponsible. Cats should not be outside all the time. It's very old-school to 'put the cat out at night' - was done decades ago, but not nowadays.

Think realistically about this. If you have to live with your mum, then it's only fair to abide by her house rules. If she doesn't want your cats indoors, and you need to stay with her, then re-home the kittens. If you want to keep your cats, then you can't stay with your mum.

Harsh - yes. But fair to all parties (including the cats)!


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm on loads of housing lists but it's hard to get a place 
She just wants them out at night ie 10pm to 9am as she doesn't want to have to keep going downstairs to sort them out when their making a racket in the kitchen and pulling books off high shelves and meowing etc
I'm a heavy sleeper so dont hear any noise from then unlike my mum who's a light sleeper 
When I got them we agreed that I would let them out but if they don't want to go out then I can't force them 
I open the doors for them if they want to go out they just don't seem to wanna walk further then the front door step area


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

you cant let them out at 10-9, thats what kittens do they make noise!! can not you shut them in one room with litter tray/food/water/toys? even your bedroom?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

So rain,snow,wind,thunder,darkness, yobs,drunken idiots,loose dogs ,traffic and God knows what other danger are ok as long as they dont make a noise in the house between 10 pm and 9 am.There is no way in the world I could risk my animals safety by locking them out overnight.If moving out is not an option then I would rehome them where they can be safe.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

buffie said:


> So rain,snow,wind,thunder,darkness, yobs,drunken idiots,loose dogs ,traffic and God knows what other danger are ok as long as they dont make a noise in the house between 10 pm and 9 am.There is no way in the world I could risk my animals safety by locking them out overnight.If moving out is not an option then I would rehome them where they can be safe.


cant add much more to buffies post about being left out all night  :frown:


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Hi Mand82. I am so sorry you are in this predicament and I agree with the advice above. In fact, I'm afraid I'd go a step further and suggest that, until you are completely independent and can provide for any cats on your own terms (you are obviously a caring person), it might be kindest to get all 3 cats rehomed. I know that you love them and want the best for them (even starving yourself for them) but being forced out of the house in all weathers seems harsh treatment for any animal, even if they are allowed in for the odd cuddle . If you can't bring your mum round on this, please consider what is best for them in the long run even if that means giving them up for fostering/rehoming.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I thought I'd misread about them being booted out at night 

OP please seriously consider rehoming them. It's totally unfair and much too dangerous to be doing that. If you love them like you say you do, you will want to do what's best for them.

If you really can't get your act together (life is hard! But if you really wanted to get a place of your own you could) to find your own place, rehoming them is the best option.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Mand, isn't the thought of losing your cats enough of a motivator for you to find your own place? Housing lists aren't the only way. 

Maybe this is a good opportunity for you to make a new life for yourself. 

Best of luck!


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## catzz (Apr 8, 2010)

Hi Mand 
With regards to housing lists, let me tell you a story. A couple of years ago we agreed to let an aquaintance stay with us for a few days. Long story but he had no where else to go. Six months later he was still with us and fobbing us off with excuses about housing lists etc. Keep in mind he was living with us for free. It drove us more and more mad until it all came to a head one night and we told him he had to leave right then. We both felt absolutely terrible about this but lo and behold the next day he had a house to live in with housing benefit paying the rent. No word of a lie - it took him a day to sort it out with a private landlord. he had to find a deposit but if your mum's that desperate maybe she could help you out? I guess what I'm saying is even if you're relying on HB you can still rent privately and don't need to wait to arrive at the top of the list. It'll take you ages to get there anyway; because you're living with your mum you'll be very low priority on the list.
Hope that helps - it's not meant to be having a go at you in any way. it's just in case you didn't know. Hope it all gets sorted.


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

I can't rent privately as most dont allow pets and most want a months rent and deposit up front and both me and my mum are unemployed I do have the estate agencies looking for places but even thy are finding it hard to find places that take pets and dss and under the hb budget
One of the kittens has walked further from the house when it decided to go outside on it's on but the other one still stays by the door but both have stopped meowing when I shut the door for a few mins 
I would never lock the kittens out at night if they weren't confident enough that's why I'm trying to get them used to going out during the day and when they are confident and not scared anymore then slowly get them used to night time my oldest cat goes out at night and comes back and forth as it knows he can come in and out as he pleases


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

mand82 said:


> I can't rent privately as most dont allow pets and most want a months rent and deposit up front and both me and my mum are unemployed I do have the estate agencies looking for places but even thy are finding it hard to find places that take pets and dss and under the hb budget
> One of the kittens has walked further from the house when it decided to go outside on it's on but the other one still stays by the door but both have stopped meowing when I shut the door for a few mins
> I would never lock the kittens out at night if they weren't confident enough that's why I'm trying to get them used to going out during the day and when they are confident and not scared anymore then slowly get them used to night time my oldest cat goes out at night and comes back and forth as it knows he can come in and out as he pleases


Whether they are confident enough or not,makes no difference to the dangers..*IT IS NOT SAFE FOR CATS TO BE SHUT OUTSIDE,OVERNIGHT.*


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

buffie said:


> Whether they are confident enough or not,makes no difference to the dangers..*IT IS NOT SAFE FOR CATS TO BE SHUT OUTSIDE,OVERNIGHT.*


1000000000% in agreement.

PLEASE *STOP* forcing them out.


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

is there no room you can shut them in overnight where they won't make a noise?

My boys get shut in the back hall overnight, it's only a small space but if they have the run of the house they make so much noise playing, like rolling down the stairs and stuff it sounds like the house is falling down. 

My dad suggested it and I was worried about shutting them in such a small space at first but then it seems to make them realise that it's bed time and after a couple of days if I went down in the night I'd find them asleep in their bed at that time. They have all day to run round and lots of space while I'm at work. They have a bed in there and a blanket, a few toys and a litter tray and they seem absolutely fine with that.


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## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

Have posted before,but need to agree entirely with what you are being advised

You need to make a choice I think-if the situation has to stay as it is-i.e.kittens put out at night to face a whole host of dangers from humans,traffic,animals,weather etc etc
then you should rehome these kittens if you cant find somewhere else to live.

Im sorry but you seem to be making excuses for what is going on and telling us that you love them so much. 
They are outside now as I type this ,God help them,
As others have said -can you not put them in a room on their own during the night.?
How will you feel if they get run over or disappear-will you be able to live with that?You have a chance to prevent that happening now but youve got to be realistic about the situation.

Please try and see that what you are doing is wrong-Im not being nasty when I say that-its just that you came on here for advice,but seem to have every excuse under the sun for what is happening

I have 3 cats ,which I have had from when they were kittens ,they are indoor cats,they are happy and safe .It took some work when they were only kittens-but thats what it takes when YOU choose to be their owner . 

If you are not prepared to do the right thing by them-rehome them to someone else who will -if you love them as much as you say
Good luck-think about what we are all saying,please
from Maureen


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

My 3 are all shut in the kitchen at night and they are fine with that. If not we wouldn't get any sleep because they like to creep down the duvet and sleep there and it's too disturbing for us or the children. They have a bedtime routine of food, lights out, shut in kitchen and they settle down to sleep.

If my cats were shut out at night, I'd be so scared I'd be out there all night with them! :frown:


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Mand, being 'confident' won't help your kittens from getting run over, attacked by foxes or bigger cats, or kicked by a drunk coming home from the pub. Nor will it help them if the weather suddenly turns and it snows or there is a thunderstorm.


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

My older cat goes out all night as he loves it and wants to go out all the time and his fine we live in a no through road where there's loads of other cats and kittens around 
My kittens don't go out at night at the moment their locked in the kitchen at night and one kitten likes to go out even tho she doesnt go further then the carpark now as she tends to claw the garden door open And rip out all the tiles etc just to get out of the house 
Out area is a safe place for cats to go out at night and I always bring my cats in when it's raining, snowing, storm etc 
Cats protection, RSPCA, pdsa, and the vets say it's ok for cats to go out at night


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

mand82 said:


> My older cat goes out all night as he loves it and wants to go out all the time and his fine we live in a no through road where there's loads of other cats and kittens around
> My kittens don't go out at night at the moment their locked in the kitchen at night and one kitten likes to go out even tho she doesnt go further then the carpark now as she tends to claw the garden door open And rip out all the tiles etc just to get out of the house
> Out area is a safe place for cats to go out at night and I always bring my cats in when it's raining, snowing, storm etc
> Cats protection, RSPCA, pdsa, and the vets say it's ok for cats to go out at night


Manda there is NO safe place for cats to be out all night.There is no point in coming back and saying this place ,that place say it is ok,Its not illegal ,sadly,but it will never be considered acceptable by cat owners who take their animals safety seriously.I do doubt whether C.P.and most rescue societies would advocate shutting cats outside overnight.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Mand, there is a big difference between shutting a cat out all night and giving a cat access to the house via a catflap. The rights and wrongs of this are debatable but at least a cat has the chance to find warmth and safety. We adopted through the RSPCA although keeping in at night is recommended they are also happy with a catflap giving access but *not* locking out all night.

And car parks/driveways are terrible for cats, they have a habit of sheltering under cars and many cats get run over by drivers who don't even know they are there. When the car starts the cat gets startled and ends up running under the wheels.

As for bad weather, you've already told us that you are such a deep sleeper that you don't hear the cats making a noise in the house. How are you going to hear when it snows or rains? How are you going to hear when one of them gets hurt and is mewing at the door to come in?


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

mand82 said:


> *I can't rent privately as most dont allow pets and most want a months rent and deposit up front* and both me and my mum are unemployed I do have the estate agencies looking for places but even thy are finding it hard to find places that take pets and dss and under the hb budget
> One of the kittens has walked further from the house when it decided to go outside on it's on but the other one still stays by the door but both have stopped meowing when I shut the door for a few mins
> I would never lock the kittens out at night if they weren't confident enough that's why I'm trying to get them used to going out during the day and when they are confident and not scared anymore then slowly get them used to night time my oldest cat goes out at night and comes back and forth as it knows he can come in and out as he pleases


I totally disagree with this statement. I have a wealth of experience working in local government housing sector, which includes securing accommodation from RSL's and private landlords for people who are homeless or potentiallly homeless, a lot of whom have pets. Cats are usually not excluded from private tenancies. I have seen queries over dogs living at certain properties, but during 18 years in this field, I have never, ever seen a tenancy agreement that stipulates 'no cats'. It may say 'no pets' but in my experience, this is negotiable.

I also have several friends who rent privately - most of them have cats and/or dogs.

With regards to a deposit, you can get help from Local Authorities with this in some instances. You need to approach your local housing office for further advice and they will be able to direct you to any suitable schemes that are available in your area.

It appears to me from reading this entire thread, you are just looking for justification to put the cats out at night, which you are not going to get from the majority of people on PF. It is not acceptable to put cats out 24/7. What is the point of having a pet


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## Themis (Dec 18, 2009)

Can you not shut your Cats in your bedroom with you at night? That way your Mum won't be disturbed.

I couldn't imagine leaving my girls outside overnight (not that they go out at all since they are house cats) as there are just too many opportunities for them to get into trouble.


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## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

your cats will get used to going out in there own time. My tinker was verry weary in the first place now shes out more than shes in of course she has been done so i have no concerns there.


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## mand82 (Sep 18, 2010)

I have contacted the job centre etc and they said they can only pay the rent or deposit and not both, I estate agency did find one flat but it was above the budget am still looking 
The cats have a porch where they can keep dry with a blanket and food and water, one kitten loves going out now and will run out of the house when he door is open and doesn't mind being out But both kittens have to stay in for the mo as their both I'll and on a vet diet 
If my cats want to go out all night then it's upto them my mum has let my older cat in at 2am and 6am as she checks regularly 
They have gotten to know the other cats in the area and have come friends with them, all the neighbours make a fuss of the cats day and night



dougal22 said:


> I totally disagree with this statement. I have a wealth of experience working in local government housing sector, which includes securing accommodation from RSL's and private landlords for people who are homeless or potentiallly homeless, a lot of whom have pets. Cats are usually not excluded from private tenancies. I have seen queries over dogs living at certain properties, but during 18 years in this field, I have never, ever seen a tenancy agreement that stipulates 'no cats'. It may say 'no pets' but in my experience, this is negotiable.
> 
> I also have several friends who rent privately - most of them have cats and/or dogs.
> 
> ...


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I've just recently (october) found a property that stated no pets and no dss

We moved in with two dogs, and a cat and a bit of housing benefit support, I told the estate agents up front about what I wanted and what I was prepared to give (an extra £100 ontop of the deposit, and professionaly cleaned carpets when I move out). The landlord was very resonable considering I let them know I was going to be working at home as a childminder.


Especially now, I think alot of Landlords may have trouble finding people to rent their houses with the economy the way it is, so if you talk to the estate agents or landlords and say basically that you have two cats but you are really needing to move out, and offer to pay an extra £100 ontop of the deposit, even monthly viewings ffrom the landlord if needed.


You can get something called a budgeting loan from the job centre, I got one for about £700 to help me move down from Sheffield to Southampton. I was unemployed and needed to move down before my baby was due, I've just paid it off but it was there for me. Maybe have a look into that.

Also, put your CV out EVERYWHERE to get a job, you'll receive working tax credits? Also they will still pay some of your housing benefit depending on what you earn.

Just something to think about, you said you get your cat(s) in when it's raining, snowing, thunderstorm etc. What if there's a thunderstorm when you're asleep and your poor kittens are trying to find somewhere 'safe' to go. If they've not been outside before this is likely to terrify them, I wouldn't like to think where they'd find to hide.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

mand82 said:


> I have contacted the job centre etc and they said they can only pay the rent or deposit and not both, I estate agency did find one flat but it was above the budget am still looking
> The cats have a porch where they can keep dry with a blanket and food and water, one kitten loves going out now and will run out of the house when he door is open and doesn't mind being out But both kittens have to stay in for the mo as their both I'll and on a vet diet
> If my cats want to go out all night then it's upto them my mum has let my older cat in at 2am and 6am as she checks regularly
> They have gotten to know the other cats in the area and have come friends with them, all the neighbours make a fuss of the cats day and night


Basically what you are saying is that your cats will be shut out at night regardless of any advice .Having access to a porch is not "safety or protection" fom any danger that exists for cats that are refused entry overnight.To say that *,if your cats wish to go out overnight it is up to them* is not true,Originally your thread was a statement that they didnt want to go out,if they are out overnight it is because you are allowing them/forcing them to do so.


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