# Victoria Stillwell gets bitten by a police dog



## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Oh dear, so earlier on today Victoria Stillwell announced on her Facebook that she was badly bitten by a police dog (the post has since been removed) 
Causing a bit of controversy on social media


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Was she robbing a bank at the time ?


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

She stated it was a mistake and mainly handler error. 

Sh*t happens. 

CM gets bit pushing a dog too far and no one bats an eyelid (general public), but she gets bitten by accident during a display, and everyone loses their mind! 

Typical 

I read the post, she didn't make a big deal of it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Just discussing this in a group I'm on. I have read what she posted after and thought it was quite unprofessional of her to be ranting away like she was, however, from what I've witnessed there seems to be an abundance of people very happy she's been bit. I'm just glad I stay away from those kind of groups!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Isn't she making some program in the US about police dogs? hazard of the job I expect, I can't imagine that anyone involved in working with dogs in any capacity doesn't expect to get bit at some point, be it accidentally or otherwise. The only reason I never got bit working in veterinary practice was because I was fast, I had some near misses believe me lol!


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

It's a shame as it was good to see a well known positive trainer becoming involved with working dogs but she has now become a bit of a joke between 'the other side' I see people saying positive trainers shouldn't be allowed near police dogs etc funny that as our local police force use positive training


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

She is trying to get some street cred working with the police hence her association with the West Mids force at Crufts and appearing at the IMPACT conference etc.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I just read some of the comments on her Facebook post (the one with the series sneak peak).... I don't get involved in Facebook debates usually, but it's very hard to keep my mouth shut sometimes. Especially when it comes to some of the comments on there.

My tongue is bleeding!!!


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> I just read some of the comments on her Facebook post (the one with the series sneak peak).... I don't get involved in Facebook debates usually, but it's very hard to keep my mouth shut sometimes. Especially when it comes to some of the comments on there.
> 
> My tongue is bleeding!!!


I got bored loading more recent comments... and then got sidetracked by "How to make an Easter Egg hunt for your dog".


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

diefenbaker said:


> I got bored loading more recent comments... and then got sidetracked by "How to make an Easter Egg hunt for your dog".


So? How do you?!


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> So? How do you?!


It's slightly further down on her FaceBook page.. it's not very exciting.. but the colours caught my eye.. and then my chocolate receptors took over.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Not being on facebook I've no idea what happened. How did she end up getting bitten?


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not being on facebook I've no idea what happened. How did she end up getting bitten?


One of the tellers set off the silent alarm. The wheels man panicked and drove off while she was still inside. She exited with two black holdalls full of cash but had to ditch them and leg it down the high street to a local park. She was well hidden in the bushes but there's no escaping the thermal camera in the helicopter. No work tomorrow. I might have had a couple.


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Is she the trainer who goes straight to PTS for 'problem' dogs?


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm not sure what went on she didn't go into detail but apparently it was a handler error but a few witnesses say otherwise, who knows!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not being on facebook I've no idea what happened. How did she end up getting bitten?


Apparantley she was standing in an awkward place to try and get shots for filming. She doesn't actually train on this new programme she has as far as I can make out, just tags along for the ride to witness police dogs in action etc. But she claims it was a handler error.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> Is she the trainer who goes straight to PTS for 'problem' dogs?


I only ever watched one of her programmes.

She advised a family to have a 2 year old Cocker Spaniel put to sleep because he "probably had neurological problems". (This diagnosis was made over the phone).

He had bitten the lady of the house when she flapped a sheet in the garden to peg it on the line.

He seemed a sweet dog, but reactive to sudden noises.

The family took her word and had him put to sleep.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Ah well, even professional race car drivers have been known to have the odd bump. It's just a game of numbers.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

It sounds a nasty bite (on her leg) but then it would be from a trained police dog ... no details of how it happened but she was only observing ....wrong place at the wrong time is the quote though she did use the phrase 'handler error' as well. Whatever happened it must have been very frightening. 

J


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Bunch of idiots. Did they even see a vet for a scan? And who the heck is she telling people to PTS over the phone? Totally irresponsible.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Just discussing this in a group I'm on. I have read what she posted after and thought it was quite unprofessional of her to be ranting away like she was, however, from what I've witnessed there seems to be an abundance of people very happy she's been bit. I'm just glad I stay away from those kind of groups!


Agree, I would be incredibly p*ssed off if I was part of the K9 unit she was working with. I thought her comments were completely unprofessional (& may not be true anyway), & am not sure why she felt the need to post this on FB.


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

With the pts - it was far more involved than that. The dog had bitten a child as well and the family asked her (not the other way round) whether pts or rehome was the answer the wife had wanted it pts from the first bite, the husband couldn't go through with it. Also it was one of her far earlier episodes which most people agree aren't as good as her later ones. And it also all that would fit in a half hour program let alone all the other conversation that would have gone on over the subject.

As for this bite without more information how can we judge what has happened?

It almost seems as though trainers are only good on here for a week before we find some manky old fish to slap them with. Shit happens and its not exclusive - it happens to us all. Doesn't make us bad people or bad at what we do - its how we handle it and pick ourselves up afterwards that moulds that.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rach&Miko said:


> With the pts - it was far more involved than that. The dog had bitten a child as well and the family asked her (not the other way round) whether pts or rehome was the answer the wife had wanted it pts from the first bite, the husband couldn't go through with it. Also it was one of her far earlier episodes which most people agree aren't as good as her later ones. And it also all that would fit in a half hour program let alone all the other conversation that would have gone on over the subject.
> 
> As for this bite without more information how can we judge what has happened?
> 
> It almost seems as though trainers are only good on here for a week before we find some manky old fish to slap them with. Shit happens and its not exclusive - it happens to us all. Doesn't make us bad people or bad at what we do - its how we handle it and pick ourselves up afterwards that moulds that.


I agree, I sort of remeber the episode with the dog being pts & tbh I don't think she was wrong, there was alot of stuff that had happened with the dog & I think it would have been irresponsible to rehome a dog like that.

As you say 'shit happens', it does & that's why I think she was wrong to post about this partticular incident with the police dog & to accuse the handler of being at fault, that is her view & may not be the truth.

Surely as a professional she should realise that it is not helpful for her to post comments like that on her FB page


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

I've not seen it unfortunately but I understand it was removed?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I remember that cocker too. It was suspected to be cocker rage syndrome and the previous bite to the child had been one of the hang on and rag category. It was not a safe dog, couldn't have been safely rehomed unless to someone very experienced. On here, I can bet of us would have recommended put to sleep.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Yes I remember the episode with the spaniel too (vaguely) and I thought she had already been working with them and knew the dog before she advised PTS. 

I'm sure she must be very sore if it was a nasty bite, perhaps she blamed the handler because she didn't want to blame the dog and for the dog to be taken out of the unit or something.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I just seen a screenshot of what she posted. 
Obviously I skimmed it yesterday when I read it because she doesn't come across well at all. 
I like her, I think she's a good ambassador for R+ and she's out there, doing as much as she can to fly the flag. That being said, she does not come across well in what she posted. IMO, being the influential person she is, she should be a little more careful with what she says.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> I just seen a screenshot of what she posted.
> Obviously I skimmed it yesterday when I read it because she doesn't come across well at all.
> I like her, I think she's a good ambassador for R+ and she's out there, doing as much as she can to fly the flag. That being said, she does not come across well in what she posted. IMO, being the influential person she is, she should be a little more careful with what she says.


Yes that's why I feel it's unprofessional of her to be so 'pissed'. I thought she more than anyone would understand a misplaced bite. That said, none of us was there so it's hard to pin point blame.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> That being said, she does not come across well in what she posted. IMO, being the influential person she is, she should be a little more careful with what she says.


I don't think it's too bad given the situation. Might not get a second series tho. Tomorrow's fish and chip paper.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

Yes @Lauren5159 I saw essentially the same quote here:
http://dogsinthenews.co.uk/?p=4165
"Two days ago during a police dog training seminar I received a very bad, sustained bite from a training exercise gone wrong. Combination of wrong place at the wrong time and major handler error. I've been in a fog of pain and pain pills since then but today am clear enough to be majorly pissed. This should never have happened and now I have six very deep puncture wounds with two drains in my legs - can't walk and the pain is excruciating. Am I feeling sorry for myself? Yes I bloody am. I'm annoyed that this happened when it so easily could have been prevented."

I too found this very unprofessional. Fine to say "I got bitten and I'm sore as hell" (which I'm sure she is) but to start throwing blame around does not sit well with me. If it was that bad of a handler error, that needs to be addressed, for sure, but not turned in to a public shaming. And of course the handler involved, if they are active police, won't be able to say anything in their own defense, which makes her rant even more unfair and unprofessional.



smokeybear said:


> She is trying to get some street cred working with the police hence her association with the West Mids force at Crufts and appearing at the IMPACT conference etc.


LOL the "street cred" made me laugh 
I think she would earn a lot more credibility by simply training her own dog to a high level.

I'm not a fan of her either way. I don't dislike her training, I just find her amateurish compared to the much more talented trainers who are out there. A friend of mine just went to a Forrest Micke seminar for example and came back bursting at the seams with new information.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

And to bring her little girl in to this .... really, really childish & unnecessary.

Surely this is a'work related incident' & should be investigated by the dept not plastered over social media blaming people ..... hasn't done herself any favours with this post at all


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Definitely agree with unprofessional.

But she's human too and I could see myself writing something similar when pissed off, in pain and my child's birthday not going to plan.

The fact she removed it says she thought better of it but too little too late.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

It's a social media rant. The incident itself will be remembered long after the rant is forgotten. #icecreamandjellyforvictoria


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

More deleted twitter posts state it was not one of the dogs she was filming for her Guardians of the Night programme, but a dog from a department in Alabama. And that she wasn't training or interacting with the dogs at all. ( sorry can't screen grab on my tablet )

The replies are awful though and I'm not surprised she deleted the rants tbh. I hate this perception that seems to be made clear from people posting in response that she's dealing with hard dogs and her cookie cutting ways would never work and it was bound to happen......really? Hence her response she wasn't training them and she was there as a bystander effectively.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

Yes, the vitriol towards her is awful. 
Yes, she behaved unprofessionally but that doesn’t excuse the awful behavior towards her either. 

The trainer wars have no place in this particular situation that I can tell. As stated, she was not training the dog. If you want to blame it on her naiveté or lack of experience that’s one thing, but realize that has nothing to do with training styles. Lack of experience exists on all ends of the training styles spectrum. 

That you can’t train “serious” dog like police K9s with R+ methods is horseshit as departments all over the nation show repeatedly. There really is no “methods” discussion here that I can see....


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Tbh, he rant to me reads as someone who is emotionally affected by the event and who's judgement is clouded by stress and medication. Who knows if she would have had a public rant were she not on strong medication? 
I feel rather sorry for her to be honest. No, I don't feel that stomping up and down is a professional response but this must have been a rather harrowing experience and she is clearly very upset by it.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

From another perspective though, bites happen.
For one, not all training programs and not all handlers are created equal.
In most cases, these are dogs trained professionally by someone else, sold to departments for a lot of money, and then the handlers (who are not necessarily experienced in dog in any way shape or form) go to a 3 to 6 week training course to learn how to work with their assigned dog.
It's not a perfect system at all.

Even with a handler who is hugely experienced and has participated in the dog's training from day one, stuff happens. You're going in to a building and an overzealous officer gets in front of you and your dog, and guess who's going to get bitten in the ass? Yup, your guy. You hope your dog has a good out and the guy bitten in the ass learns his lesson, but stuff like this happens a good bit. It's just obviously not publicized 
And you can bet the guy bitten in the butt isn't going to go on social media whining about how much it hurts and how mad he is. Sorry but if she's trying to gain street cred, that just lost her a bunch of it right there. 

Speaking of, I wonder how this is going to affect filming and her relationship with the department she's working with in Georgia?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> From another perspective though, bites happen.
> For one, not all training programs and not all handlers are created equal.
> In most cases, these are dogs trained professionally by someone else, sold to departments for a lot of money, and then the handlers (who are not necessarily experienced in dog in any way shape or form) go to a 3 to 6 week training course to learn how to work with their assigned dog.
> It's not a perfect system at all.
> ...


I agree, I've been accidentally bitten by my young dog when we were playing with his ball on a rope (I was whipping it around & he was leaping for it), not badly as he just caught me but it bloody hurt. As he's gotten older he does this less as we're both better at this sort of play!

In any scenario you can get bitten, it's just bad luck at times & you learn from each experience. When dealing with high drive dogs in such situations of heightened defense/prey drive exercises then am sure these incidents do occur & although there must be preventative meaures taken there are still risks as there are in everything.

I was thinking the same regarding the working relationship, I can't imagine that blaming the handler so publically will go down well.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree, I've been accidentally bitten by my young dog when we were playing with his ball on a rope (I was whipping it around & he was leaping for it), not badly as he just caught me but it bloody hurt. As he's gotten older he does this less as we're both better at this sort of play!
> 
> In any scenario you can get bitten, it's just bad luck at times & you learn from each experience. When dealing with high drive dogs in such situations of heightened defense/prey drive exercises then am sure these incidents do occur & although there must be preventative meaures taken there are still risks as there are in everything.
> 
> I was thinking the same regarding the working relationship, I can't imagine that blaming the handler so publically will go down well.


Yup! I remember us talking about being bitten by our dogs in that sort of context on here 
Not all trainers have experience with the intensity some dogs operate with. My own muttdog is very mild by comparison and even he has taken a pet dog trainer by surprise. I told her it was coming and she didn't quite understand/believe me. Hey, at least I told her! My other trainer was just sitting there laughing knowing full well what was about to happen! 
And this is a dog who is therapy certified and has been on huge, busy sets full of children and is 100% fine. We just don't put him in drive for stuff like that 

But yeah, intense dogs require intense focus on the part of the handler, and just flat paying attention. I imagine having the distraction of a camera crew can't be easy....


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Question though, if the dog had a good 'out' would it have caused as extensive damage as VS claims it to have?


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Question though, if the dog had a good 'out' would it have caused as extensive damage as VS claims it to have?


Well she refers to the injury as six deep punctures wounds, which by her description doesn't sound as bad as things could have been, if it would have really gone for it she wouldn't be able to work out how many puncture wounds there were. 
I have witnessed someone have the tip of their finger accidently bitten off by their young GSD during play with a ball, I've also been caught by my own dog during play, Harrys breeder says there is the fast trainers & then there's the bleeding


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> Question though, if the dog had a good 'out' would it have caused as extensive damage as VS claims it to have?


Depends on how soon the dog was told to out 

That it is 'only' puncture wounds, suggests she wasn't really ragged on, just unfortunately tagged. 
Not to say deep puncture wounds don't hurt like hell, they do, but it's not the kind of damage like you would see in a real suspect being taken down.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Question though, if the dog had a good 'out' would it have caused as extensive damage as VS claims it to have?


I've looked at the (heavy hessian) sleeve Archer has bitten during protection training (he isn't allowed to rag but must bite & hold on) & the punctures are very obvious at times so if it were a persons arm/leg with no padding then he would've caused alot of damage. It's obviously alot of force in that bite so even if the dog either did realise hs mistake & let go or was told to it much have hurt an awful lot


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

That all makes sense. Like you said @Cleo38, even being accidently caught in play is a killer, so a dog that has actual force behind that bite is going to do more obvious damage even if it was somewhat restrained.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Interesting read on here

https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

bogdog said:


> Interesting read on here
> 
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


Oh dear that's a very unprofessional read too isn't it?

For one, I don't think VS has ever stated dogs don't need discipline?
And again, what do training methods have to do with anything here?
The videos of dogs/handlers making mistakes as evidence that training methods don't work is just stupid. The blogger doesn't know how those dogs were trained. 
Ugh, the whole thing is just distasteful... I really have no patience for blogs like that. Be they attacking a rewards based trainer or an escape/avoidance trainer. 
Professionalism is professionalism and one trainer lacking it does not excuse another to behave badly either.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

bogdog said:


> Interesting read on here
> 
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


Am not sure why her training techniques are being bought in to question with this article, she wasn't training in this instance ...... & watching some of the 'training' clips from the author of this article I am amazed that he can comment on someone being bitten as I am surprised he himself hasn't been bitten often the way he 'trains'.

And as for his staement 'Unfortunately, when you put commercialism before common sense and real science these are the things that happen' ... what does he mean by common sense & real science??! Not something he demonstrates in one particular training clip where he wears a thick glove to constantly provoke a dog in to biting him to try to stop aggression around a food bowl ... unbelievable.

And again his article is unprofessional in that he is slagging off another trainer & making comments about their working relationship.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

bogdog said:


> Interesting read on here
> 
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


Well, that seemed all very one sided. Can't say I found it that interesting and he loses me constantly with the emphasis that K9's and the like can't be trained 'positively'.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

And if she were as fake & 'dangerous as he was implying then why work with her in the first place?!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

where is the article, it just came up with something that said page not found in the address bar


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

Blitz said:


> where is the article, it just came up with something that said page not found in the address bar


She posted something on FB and then deleted it. Lauren posted a link to what she said. So far, no news stories on the incident.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> where is the article, it just came up with something that said page not found in the address bar


I just tried it twice, first time it came up with 'page moved', then it came up with the article


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## jon.bda (Oct 10, 2015)

bogdog said:


> Interesting read on here
> 
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


The awful thread title makes me not want to even bother reading it if I'm honest. I guessing its an American site?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

bogdog said:


> Interesting read on here
> 
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


Some people really will take any opportunity won't they? I read the first paragraph before getting bored/interrupted by Bear with a toy in his mouth


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

Update up now on FB page and blog:
https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I know very little about her but that seems a very well balanced response. I notice she is not blaming the dog or handler but I truly hope that a police dog is not expected to bite first and ask questions later in a situation like that.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Update up now on FB page and blog:
> https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/


That clears things up a bit. However, she really should have waited to post this statement as she admits. Still, hopefully it can be laid to rest now and the people glorifying in her injury can crawl back under their rock.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Update up now on FB page and blog:
> https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/


I sort of think she's missed the point ... she's very quick to pick up on the debate regarding postive training with high drive working dogs & stuff that's been going on but nowhere does she acknowledge that she was wrong to make her original post which (for me) was the main point.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Update up now on FB page and blog:
> https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/


I just saw this.

I too think it was a very well balanced response to what has been, a very tough time for her. 
I completely agree with @Blitz 
It's a disturbing thought that some police dogs clearly bite first and ask questions later. That's not balanced or effective training. Isn't control of the highest importance in those situations?


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I sort of think she's missed the point ... she's very quick to pick up on the debate regarding postive training with high drive working dogs & stuff that's been going on but nowhere does she acknowledge that she was wrong to make her original post which (for me) was the main point.


I'm sure she does, nearer the start of her post.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lauren5159 said:


> I'm sure she does, nearer the start of her post.


No, she doesn't she says .... '*Really, I should have waited to release this information publicly altogether to avoid the potential for misinformation and giving ammunition to those threatened by my beliefs. But now that it's out there (due to my own posting), I feel it's important to clarify and provide a bit more context*'

That's just picking up on the arguement regarding postive trainers & high drive dogs. IMO she has acted incredibly unprofessionally & really done herself no favours, she blamed the handler in her initial post which must have been a huge insult to him/her & their professional conduct & she doesn't apologise for this for this in her latest post


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm with @Blitz as well.

I too would be concerned if a police dog was a bite first, ask questions later kind of animal - at Crufts the police dog display team emphasised the importance of control in often dangerous situations.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> No, she doesn't she says .... '*Really, I should have waited to release this information publicly altogether to avoid the potential for misinformation and giving ammunition to those threatened by my beliefs. But now that it's out there (due to my own posting), I feel it's important to clarify and provide a bit more context*'
> 
> That's just picking up on the arguement regarding postive trainers & high drive dogs. IMO she has acted incredibly unprofessionally & really done herself no favours, she blamed the handler in her initial post which must have been a huge insult to him/her & their professional conduct & she doesn't apologise for this for this in her latest post


Yeah, that's my bad. I skim read the lead up to reading what actually went on. 
Her initial post was very unprofessional, I agree. But maybe she still feels strongly that it was handler error? 
It seems like a very well thought-out post so there must be a reason why she hasn't clarified that point or apologised. I'm only clutching at straws as I don't actually know what she's thinking.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lauren5159 said:


> Yeah, that's my bad. I skim read the lead up to reading what actually went on.
> Her initial post was very unprofessional, I agree. But maybe she still feels strongly that it was handler error?
> It seems like a very well thought-out post so there must be a reason why she hasn't clarified that point or apologised. I'm only clutching at straws as I don't actually know what she's thinking.


But ... why post about it at all until the facts are known? I really think this is yet another example of someone having to share stuff on social media when they really should know better. If someone else had leaked this then I could understand her issuing a statement but she was the one to post about it & bring her daughter in to the equation.

As I said previously, surely it is treated as an accident in the work place (am not sure what their procedures are but an sure they will have something in place) & really no commments regarding blame should be made until it has been investigated/assessed. Her opinions may be based more on her feelings rather than fact or what actually happened so why post about it so publically, why not just rant to friends & family?


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> But ... why post about it at all until the facts are known? I really think this is yet another example of someone having to share stuff on social media when they really should know better. If someone else had leaked this then I could understand her issuing a statement but she was the one to post about it & bring her daughter in to the equation.
> 
> As I said previously, surely it is treated as an accident in the work place (am not sure what their procedures are but an sure they will have something in place) & really no commments regarding blame should be made until it has been investigated/assessed. Her opinions may be based more on her feelings rather than fact or what actually happened so why post about it so publically, why not just rant to friends & family?


I completely agree. And I'm not condoning it, just trying to guess at reasons why she didn't either apologise or clear up exactly why she placed blame with the handler.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> I'm with @Blitz as well.
> 
> I too would be concerned if a police dog was a bite first, ask questions later kind of animal - at Crufts the police dog display team emphasised the importance of control in often dangerous situations.


True but dogs, like people sometimes get it wrong.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> True but dogs, like people sometimes get it wrong.


True. As this was 'training' after all, I'm sure they expect things to go wrong. I assume training with a helicopter that was turned on isn't exactly a usual weekly training exercise? In time I assume all the dogs & handlers will learn their control in this situation, obviously in this instance it was a sign the dog isn't ready for this situation in real life ? .. Hence 'training'


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

JenSteWillow said:


> True. As this was 'training' after all, I'm sure they expect things to go wrong. I assume training with a helicopter that was turned on isn't exactly a usual weekly training exercise? In time I assume all the dogs & handlers will learn their control in this situation, obviously in this instance it was a sign the dog isn't ready for this situation in real life ? .. Hence 'training'


Indeed, and even experienced dogs have been known to get it wrong on duty.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't know - having read her statement I think I would have been pretty pissed off too, she was invited into the helicopter as an observer so surely whoever did that had carried out their "risk assessment" and thought it was safe for her to be there, whether it was handler error or a risk assessment error she did end up with a nasty bite which no doubt left her pretty shocked, we are not talking about a pet dog missing a toy and getting a bit of hand here so not quite the same thing. Of course she shouldn't have made the initial post but as she says she was drugged up and in pain so perhaps she can be forgiven for that little error of judgement.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2016)

JenSteWillow said:


> True. As this was 'training' after all, I'm sure they expect things to go wrong. I assume training with a helicopter that was turned on isn't exactly a usual weekly training exercise? In time I assume all the dogs & handlers will learn their control in this situation, obviously in this instance it was a sign the dog isn't ready for this situation in real life ? .. Hence 'training'


Exactly.
Her words: "One of the exercises the units went through was to get their dogs in and out of an engaged helicopter *so that they could get the dogs used to unique environment of being in and around a noisy, windy helicopter for work purposes.*"
Clearly this dog needs some proofing to clarify that the criteria for "get in the helicopter" includes not biting whatever you find inside the helicopter.

But when you think about it, these dogs are trained to buildings - often loud, noisy buildings, and apprehend whoever they find in there. That's a difficult criteria from the dog's POV to distinguish between go in this weird building scenario, and go in this helicopter. There is a reason these dogs are often muzzled in this sort of situation.

IDK... I'm honestly kind of surprised at how big a deal she's making of this. She got bitten, well, there ya go. This sort of thing happens. I can't believe in 2 years hanging out with a K9 crew she hasn't heard multiple stories of getting "tagged" and how the officers involved handled it. There's kind of an unspoken protocol for how you talk about it, and she's not following it - at all. Drama llama springs to mind. 
I know that sounds unkind, I don't mean it to, those bites do really hurt, and they hurt a lot worse the following days, so I know she really is in pain, and she makes a good point about understanding what it's like from the bite victim's side.
I'm just... maybe embarrassed for her?

And I'm with @Cleo38 about picking up the methods argument. Again, I'm a kind of embarrassed for her because unless you have the dog and the experience to back it up, the "street cred" if you will, she needs to hush already about K9 handlers and police dog training. There are enough people who *do* have the experience with these kinds of dogs who she can quote and refer to instead. And that might make her look a little more humble and willing to learn also....


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Exactly.
> Her words: "One of the exercises the units went through was to get their dogs in and out of an engaged helicopter *so that they could get the dogs used to unique environment of being in and around a noisy, windy helicopter for work purposes.*"
> Clearly this dog needs some proofing to clarify that the criteria for "get in the helicopter" includes not biting whatever you find inside the helicopter.
> 
> ...


I do agree.

She works with dogs on a daily basis and, normally, dogs with behavioural problems. Being bitten must surely be an occupational hazard, yet, she seems to have taken it so personally.

To go public on Social Media, ranting about how angry she is and how the whole incident was down to handler error is about as unprofessional as it gets IMO.

If she really felt that, then she should have taken it up privately with whichever handler was concerned, not shared it with Heaven knows how many people who weren't even there.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> we are not talking about a pet dog missing a toy and getting a bit of hand here so not quite the same thing


My post was in reference to how easy it can be for accidents to happen when working with high drive dogs. These are also working dogs I was talking about, not pets


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

ouesi said:


> There is a reason these dogs are often muzzled in this sort of situation.


But this one wasn't clearly. And it should have been. Entering a helicopter when in a state of arousal. Someone cocked up the risk assessment. And I would suspect that it was also handler error ...know your dog.

Should VS have ranted ...of course not ...but as has been said it was from her sick bed and she is only human. It was deleted.

As for the 'it's her job she should be used to getting bitten'. That's like saying you're a builder, you should be used to falling off ladders 

Unfortunately much of the vitriol following the injury has come from the Dominance Gang as there seems to be a training war on at the moment (ignited in part by the abuse case against Cesar Milan). Many comments on line are using this bite to denigrate positive methods.

J


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Update up now on FB page and blog:
> https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/


I don't really know what to make tbh. Ive never really been a fan either.
So she gets bitten by a dog, suppose Id be a tad frustrated to say the least as you dont expect the dog to go for you in such an event, the dog should have been muzzled IMO if there is a risk of this in their state of arousal for this particular exercise but ranting and raving over social media is extremely childish and no wonder shes had such a negative backlash because of it.
Very unprofessional. Id never expect a trainer to react in such a way and she should have had private words with the handler and not blasted it all out over social media!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> But this one wasn't clearly. And it should have been. Entering a helicopter when in a state of arousal. Someone cocked up the risk assessment. And I would suspect that it was also handler error ...know your dog.
> 
> Should VS have ranted ...of course not ...but as has been said it was from her sick bed and she is only human. It was deleted.
> 
> ...


It's not that anyone who works around dogs in potentially stressful/high arousal situations should be USED to being bitten, but that it is a potential occupational hazard of the job. I suppose that is why her initial response was surprising - imagine if every vet or vet nurse (or even human nurse - most I know have been bitten by a patient at some point or another!) ranted on social media about how pissed they were they had been bitten, how their plans had been ruined etc.

There is no denying that it was a horrible experience and I totally feel for her in that respect. It's possible there was a lack of judgement on placing her where she was during this exercise but both dogs and humans make mistakes.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nataliee said:


> My post was in reference to how easy it can be for accidents to happen when working with high drive dogs. These are also working dogs I was talking about, not pets


Yours wasn't the only post to mention being caught by your own dog in play which I do think is a bit different to a police dog. When your own dog catches you by accident you know the dog well enough to know it was an accident and not done with intent which isn't quite the same as

"When the dog was finally released to jump into the helicopter, he immediately saw me there and instinctively went in for a bite. He was on for a few seconds and didn't release until he was pulled off by the handler and another officer."

Poor woman seems to be getting a lot of stick for making the mistake of posting about a very traumatic experience on social media which seems odd to me in a day when people post their whole life on it. I guess for some people it helps to talk and share which is why so many people come straight on here and post when something traumatic like a dog attacking their dog or getting bitten themselves happens. Sure professionals should behave in a professional way but it seems even professionals these days have to have a high social media presence to be taken seriously.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yours wasn't the only post to mention being caught by your own dog in play which I do think is a bit different to a police dog. When your own dog catches you by accident you know the dog well enough to know it was an accident and not done with intent which isn't quite the same as
> 
> "When the dog was finally released to jump into the helicopter, he immediately saw me there and instinctively went in for a bite. He was on for a few seconds and didn't release until he was pulled off by the handler and another officer."
> 
> Poor woman seems to be getting a lot of stick for making the mistake of posting about a very traumatic experience on social media which seems odd to me in a day when people post their whole life on it. I guess for some people it helps to talk and share which is why so many people come straight on here and post when something traumatic like a dog attacking their dog or getting bitten themselves happens. Sure professionals should behave in a professional way but it seems even professionals these days have to have a high social media presence to be taken seriously.


I mentioned it to highlight that a bite, even in play can hurt.

It has nothing to do with the bite she sustained as I did state that I bet it did hurt like hell, my point was that why was she posting such inflammatory statements in the first place (sorry, I don't buy the drugged up excuse, she is in the media & knws exactly what she's doing), then if she did regret the inital post she doesn't apologise for laying blame at the handler but starts picking up on criticism of her training methods?

Also, there is only her POV regarding the incident & I would be interested to hear what the K-9 unit have to say. I think it is completely unacceptable of her to release this information without there being an official assesmsent of what actually happened, it is unprofessional & may be factually incorrect.

I attend an IPO club & we do protection work exercises, although I am not a 'helper' (person with the sleeve who gives the bite), sometimes I have been asked to act as 'judge' & stand near the blind whilst the exercise is carried out. Is there a risk a may get bitten? Very, very unlikely but if this occurred would I be posting about it on FB??? No way!!!

I completely dispute the idea that you have to have a high social media presense to be taken seriously, I would say the opposite. Lots of the trainers I rate & watch are on social media but don't promote themselves as a brand as VS seems to. After this I really think she has damaged her credibility throughout a large section of the dog world.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Pah can't get my knickers in a twist about it, to me it sounds more like she upset/annoyed that it had ruined her plans for her daughters birthday, posted in fog of painkillers and annoyance that it had happened. Then it all went crazy and so she has said what happened and is still being judged picked apart in the way that the internet so loves to do


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I saw her on TV for the first time last night and i was not impressed, this whole total drama "my life is over my god what am i going to do" crap coz a dog won't lie on a step, man i hate over dramatised reality show rubbish.....then this........She is a dog trainer, she got bit, HOW is this a big thing???.....Steve


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

steveshanks said:


> I saw her on TV for the first time last night and i was not impressed, this whole total drama "my life is over my god what am i going to do" crap coz a dog won't lie on a step, man i hate over dramatised reality show rubbish.....then this........She is a dog trainer, she got bit, HOW is this a big thing???.....Steve


Have you ever been bitten by a police dog? in the back of a helicopter? that took two officers to get off? I haven't but I would imagine it is pretty traumatic not least because its a confined space that isn't easy to get out of.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I mentioned it to highlight that a bite, even in play can hurt.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the bite she sustained as I did state that I bet it did hurt like hell, my point was that why was she posting such inflammatory statements in the first place (sorry, I don't buy the drugged up excuse, she is in the media & knws exactly what she's doing), then if she did regret the inital post she doesn't apologise for laying blame at the handler but starts picking up on criticism of her training methods?
> 
> ...


Yes I know what you stated, I was pointing out to @Nataliee that my post wasn't just directed at her but that others had mentioned being caught by their dogs in play too. Of course she is in the media and knows what she is doing but she did also say

"The dog and handler are an experienced team, and the handler took care to visit me in the hospital to wish me well, which I very much appreciate - *even if I was in shock and drugged up so much that I don't really recall much*."

I agree she was foolish to post about it and lay blame but I do dislike the way she is coming out of this as the bad guy, she was invited into the helicopter as an observer by someone and ended up with a nasty bite so someone whether it was the handler or the person who did the risk assessment got it wrong.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

No but i'm not a professional dog handler, but i have had a major injury at work, i chose the profession and volunteered for the job and knew it had risks, I didn't whine on about it afterwards or now. I also didn't get paid as much as she is getting (i'd guess) LOL


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

steveshanks said:


> No but i'm not a professional dog handler, but i have had a major injury at work, i chose the profession and volunteered for the job and knew it had risks, I didn't whine on about it afterwards or now. I also didn't get paid as much as she is getting (i'd guess) LOL


I don't think she claims to be a professional dog handler either - she is a dog trainer which isn't quite the same. I'm also not sure I agree she is whining on about it, she made a small post on facebook just after the incident which she later removed - that caused a social media frenzy with people making all sorts of claims about what happened and tying to lay the blame on her so she released the statement linked to which again I wouldn't say whines on, just explains what happened.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

komondor_owner said:


> She's definitely a drama queen. And not a very impressive trainer IMHO. I do hate it when someone becomes the go-to "spokesperson" on something, not because they're any good at that something, but because they are good at 'media' and PR and have connections. She didn't even own a pet dog for years. She just saw "super-nanny" with Jo Frost, and decided she could do that with dogs, as her acting career wasn't going anywhere.
> 
> It'd be nice if a trainer who actually knew what they were doing got their own show. Like Mary Berry for cooking...


Sounds like a bit of the green eyed monster rearing its ugly head to me.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

But she shouldn't have said anything in the first place, Steve


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know - having read her statement I think I would have been pretty pissed off too, she was invited into the helicopter as an observer so surely whoever did that had carried out their "risk assessment" and thought it was safe for her to be there, whether it was handler error or a risk assessment error she did end up with a nasty bite which no doubt left her pretty shocked, we are not talking about a pet dog missing a toy and getting a bit of hand here so not quite the same thing. Of course she shouldn't have made the initial post* but as she says she was drugged up *and in pain so perhaps she can be forgiven for that little error of judgement.


In her original facebook post she stated 'I've been in a fog of pain and pain pills since then but today am clear enough to be majorly pissed' ...... So it gives the impression she knew exactly was she was posting..


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bogdog said:


> In her original facebook post she stated 'I've been in a fog of pain and pain pills since then but today am clear enough to be majorly pissed' ...... So it gives the impression she knew exactly was she was posting..


Yes I read that too and already said she was foolish to post it but if that is her only crime or mistake then its one I'm more than happy to forgive under the circumstances and like I said earlier I'd be pretty pissed too if I'd ended up with 6 puncture wounds requiring more than one hospital visit and needing 2 drains in my leg after being invited into a helicopter to observe a training exercise  If the risk assessment had been properly carried out then surely either the dog would have been muzzled or she would have been in some sort of protective clothing.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Unfortunately much of the vitriol following the injury has come from the Dominance Gang as there seems to be a training war on at the moment (ignited in part by the abuse case against Cesar Milan). Many comments on line are using this bite to denigrate positive methods.


I agree that you're definitely on to something here. This is right on the heels of CM's abuse investigation and it does seem some people are just chomping at the bit to have something to say about a "positive" trainer. 
Unfortunately for those who want to make this a methods discussion, VS's training methods have absolutely zero to do with this incident and to make it about reinforcement versus escape avoidance training just makes the poster look uninformed at best.

As I said earlier in this thread, K9 handlers are rarely the ones who train the dogs. The dogs are almost always bought already trained and handlers are chosen based on their position in the department and their seniority, not based on their knowledge or experience with dogs. And dogs are sometimes re-assigned as well. Departments don't generally train their own dogs, breeders and training facilities do, and the methods they use to train those dogs vary as widely as they vary in the pet dog world. Though I will say there has a been a big push towards more reinforcement in the past 20, 30 years for one simple reason: dogs who play with their handlers (reinforcement) bite their handlers less, and departments don't like having to pay to stitch their handlers back up and have them off duty while they recover 

But to say that when a police K9 makes a mistake it's because of PR training is just plain idiotic. That dog could have been trained motivationally at the original facility and then been assigned to a heavy handed handler, and then been re-assigned to a more motivational handler. How do you know which training method caused the mistake? 
Not to mention that dogs and humans are fallible and regardless of how they're trained make mistakes sometimes.
I mean, if there were an infallible way of training, why do we even bother competing with dogs? I've been to lots of competitions in lots of venues, and trust me, ALL dogs at some point or another "forget" their training regardless of the methods used to train them. Force trained dogs are not more reliable.

You know which dogs are the most reliable? A combination of effective training and genetics. This is why certain breeds from certain lines are used for very specialized work. Note I said *effective* training. There is no description of methods in effective. Either you know what you're doing and can apply it effectively or you don't.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Poor woman seems to be getting a lot of stick for making the mistake of posting about a very traumatic experience on social media which seems odd to me in a day when people post their whole life on it. I guess for some people it helps to talk and share which is why so many people come straight on here and post when something traumatic like a dog attacking their dog or getting bitten themselves happens. Sure professionals should behave in a professional way but it seems even professionals these days have to have a high social media presence to be taken seriously.


You said it: "professional should behave in a professional way". She has supposedly been immersed in the world of police K9s for two years now. There is an unspoken protocol if you will about how you discuss getting bitten, and that includes a) not making a big deal out of it, you don't say how much it hurts, you don't go on about drains and hospitalization, and b) not blaming anyone but yourself, even if it clearly wasn't your fault. She basically threw another officer under the bus and that's really, really bad form. And she did it in a very public way which makes it even worse. And she hasn't really apologized for that either. 
That she has spent 2 years with a K9 crew and doesn't seem to understand any of this means she either isn't paying enough attention to the people she's working with, or thinks herself above the 'rules'. Either way it doesn't paint her in a favorable light and any "street cred" she was hoping to gain has most certainly be irretrievably lost.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> You said it: "professional should behave in a professional way". She has supposedly been immersed in the world of police K9s for two years now. There is an unspoken protocol if you will about how you discuss getting bitten, and that includes a) not making a big deal out of it, you don't say how much it hurts, you don't go on about drains and hospitalization, and b) not blaming anyone but yourself, even if it clearly wasn't your fault. She basically threw another officer under the bus and that's really, really bad form. And she did it in a very public way which makes it even worse. And she hasn't really apologized for that either.
> That she has spent 2 years with a K9 crew and doesn't seem to understand any of this means she either isn't paying enough attention to the people she's working with, or thinks herself above the 'rules'. Either way it doesn't paint her in a favorable light and any "street cred" she was hoping to gain has most certainly be irretrievably lost.


I don't much like that kind of protocol I'm afraid, I'm more in the whistle blowing camp. Mistakes happen but own up to them, apologise, show you have learnt from them, hushing things up and not talking about them isn't necessarily the best course of action and how ever much time she has spent immersing herself in their world she isn't one of them, she is a TV personality/dog trainer not a police dog handler. I don't think it reflects particularly well on the force if she is expected to suck it up and shut up about it.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I agree, it was a silly and unprofessional thing to post on facebook but for goodness sake, she's a human being.

She was drugged to the eyeballs, probably still in shock and a lot of pain, upset by her young daughters birthday plans being ruined and made an error of judgement which she quickly removed, then came back at a later date to clarify events. I don't see how that is considered whining on about it. She also can't change what has happened now.

Take Victoria Stillwells name out of the equation and say it had been a random cameraman or sound man who was invited into the helicopter and received such a bite.. There would be plenty of questions being asked on this forum about the risk assessment that was carried out and why the dog wasn't muzzled under the circumstances. Once Victoria Stillwell is mentioned though, "meh suck it up love - hazard of the job" but in this case, it wasn't her job though. She was just a bystander who received a nasty bite from a police dog and then had a moan about it on facebook.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't much like that kind of protocol I'm afraid, I'm more in the whistle blowing camp. Mistakes happen but own up to them, apologise, show you have learnt from them, hushing things up and not talking about them isn't necessarily the best course of action and how ever much time she has spent immersing herself in their world she isn't one of them, she is a TV personality/dog trainer not a police dog handler. I don't think it reflects particularly well on the force if she is expected to suck it up and shut up about it.


What is there to whistle blow about? That she's working with high drive dogs and got tagged? That's nothing to whistle blow about. 
By her own account, the handler took control of the dog and the dog let go, it lasted a few seconds. It's not like the handler lost control of the dog, the dog took off and found her, ragged her and wouldn't let go. It was an unfortunate accident.

She was given special privileges to be in proximity to a training scenario. It's not like the general public are in danger of wayward police dogs and she's highlighting that danger. It was a training exercise. It went wrong, it was handled, there is no "whistle blowing" needed.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> What is there to whistle blow about? That she's working with high drive dogs and got tagged? That's nothing to whistle blow about.
> By her own account, the handler took control of the dog and the dog let go, it lasted a few seconds. It's not like the handler lost control of the dog, the dog took off and found her, ragged her and wouldn't let go. It was an unfortunate accident.
> 
> She was given special privileges to be in proximity to a training scenario. It's not like the general public are in danger of wayward police dogs and she's highlighting that danger. It was a training exercise. It went wrong, it was handled, there is no "whistle blowing" needed.


Until we hear their account we don't know that because we don't know whether a risk assessment took place and who made the decision it was OK to let her in the helicopter as an observer (not an active member of the team) and I'm sorry but I do consider the handler lost control of the dog, it was hardly under his/her control if it was attached to someone for several seconds and it took two officers to get it off. How do we know the general public are not in danger of wayward police dogs if this type of incident is hushed up and kept in house? If they are confident they did a proper risk assessment and took all necessary precautions then they shouldn't have a problem with it being discussed surely?


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

Nettles said:


> Take Victoria Stillwells name out of the equation and say it had been a random cameraman or sound man who was invited into the helicopter and received such a bite.. There would be plenty of questions being asked on this forum about the risk assessment that was carried out and why the dog wasn't muzzled under the circumstances. Once Victoria Stillwell is mentioned though, "meh suck it up love - hazard of the job" but in this case, it wasn't her job though. She was just a bystander who received a nasty bite from a police dog and then had a moan about it on facebook.


Speak for yourself, for me it has nothing to do with who this is, but how she handled herself after the fact, and the way she handled it was unprofessional, whether she is a celebrity dog trainer or a cameraman. 
And she still hasn't apologized for her unprofessional behavior.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Speak for yourself, for me it has nothing to do with who this is, but how she handled herself after the fact, and the way she handled it was unprofessional, whether she is a celebrity dog trainer or a cameraman.
> *And she still hasn't apologized for her unprofessional behavior.*


Are you serious? she gets bitten, needs more than one hospital visit, needs treatment for deep puncture wounds including two drains to her leg whilst acting as an invited observer and she is supposed to apologise


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Until we hear their account we don't know that because we don't know whether a risk assessment took place and who made the decision it was OK to let her in the helicopter as an observer (not an active member of the team) and I'm sorry but I do consider the handler lost control of the dog, it was hardly under his/her control if it was attached to someone for several seconds and it took two officers to get it off. How do we know the general public are not in danger of wayward police dogs if this type of incident is hushed up and kept in house? If they are confident they did a proper risk assessment and took all necessary precautions then they shouldn't have a problem with it being discussed surely?


There is no problem discussing it. I said earlier in the thread if she had said "I got bitten, it hurts, I'm on the mend though" that would have been fine. It's HOW she discussed it that was unprofessional.

No one is trying to cover anything up, if they were, they would not have invited a celebrity dog trainer with a camera crew LOL!

This is part of a comment left on her page which I think sums it up fairly well:
"My opposition to you stems from my belief that you don't have the expertise to knowledgeably talk about issues related to our line of work. So I again invite you to continue your work into K9, there is always room for well-informed good trainers. Good luck and heal up."

Unless you (general you) are truly familiar with this line of work (which AFAIK none of us really are), we don't know what we don't know. We are in no position to judge who did what wrong (if anything indeed was done wrong) or what sort of risk assessment should have been done. It was a training scenario, not an on the job apprehension.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Are you serious? she gets bitten, needs more than one hospital visit, needs treatment for deep puncture wounds including two drains to her leg whilst acting as an invited observer and she is supposed to apologise


Yes, I'm very serious. She should apologize for her "handler error" comment. It was uncalled for. 
You don't think she didn't know the risks of putting herself in that position? Oh my, if she didn't know the risk of being close to dogs working then she is even more lacking in knowledge than I previously thought and even less in a position to judge what these dogs and handlers do.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Speak for yourself, for me it has nothing to do with who this is, but how she handled herself after the fact, and the way she handled it was unprofessional, whether she is a celebrity dog trainer or a cameraman.
> And she still hasn't apologized for her unprofessional behavior.


I am speaking for myself. At no point in my post did I state I was speaking on behalf of you or anyone else on the forum.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't much like that kind of protocol I'm afraid, I'm more in the whistle blowing camp. Mistakes happen but own up to them, apologise, show you have learnt from them, hushing things up and not talking about them isn't necessarily the best course of action and how ever much time she has spent immersing herself in their world she isn't one of them, she is a TV personality/dog trainer not a police dog handler. I don't think it reflects particularly well on the force if she is expected to suck it up and shut up about it.


Wow, so trial by social media is better? I do not believe in covering up incompetence or lack of protocol or dangerous behaviour at all but I am in favour of highlighting issues/accidents/incidents with the relevent teams & going through correct procedure, with facts not just my opinions or feelings about an incident I may have been involved in. Otherwise how can incidents be assessed on facts? How can measures be taken to reduce these incidents reoccurring? It's not about 'not talking' at all but more about talking in the right way with the right people.

Crying to your followers that your daughter is upset & blaming a handler who has no right to respondis not fair & certainly not professional. I wonder how she would have reacted had one of the crew been bitten on her TV programme where she was handling certain dogs? Doubt she would have been impressed had they posted similar comments


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, to claim she posted the rant on FB when she was in a "drugged up haze" doesn't seem to add up to me.

Her whole rant was lucid, focused, well punctuated, etc., not what you would expect from someone who was unable to think clearly.

Being bitten in that way must have been a shock and, of course, painful, but she put herself there, in close proximity to highly driven working dogs, put in a potentially stressful situation for the first time.

Some might say she could have anticipated that this dog could 'boil over'.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sweety said:


> Well, to claim she posted the rant on FB when she was in a "drugged up haze" doesn't seem to add up to me.
> 
> Her whole rant was lucid, focused, well punctuated, etc., not what you would expect from someone who was unable to think clearly.
> 
> ...


Yup, people who have been given very high doses of opiate pain killers are inevitably conked out. I can't imagine getting on social media and typing out an articulated rant at such a time. Social media is SUCH a powerful tool these days and she made the mistake of utilizing it when, in her words, she was "pissed" which in the context of the situation was unprofessional. I doubt anyone blames her for being pissed off, no one in their right mind wants to get bitten and especially not by a powerful dog, but it's always going to be a danger/hazard of the job when you are working in close quarters with driven bite work trained dogs. She just didn't need to articulate her feelings in that way on social media which in hindsight I'm sure she won't do again.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

From a know nothing point of view I might side with handler error - crew error - her error. Is "sending a dog into somewhere" significantly different to sending it after someone? Sounds a bit like sent in, saw target, did what it thought it was supposed to.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think the point is that yes she has every right to be pissed off ( and if it was a risk assessment error then I'd be equally pissed ), but it was the way in which she announced that to all & sundry over social media. I'm not sure what the point of her declaring that was? It just seemed a bit...bitchy? I don't know. By all means let the public know you was bitten, what happened etc, but don't bring personal emotions into it IMO, especially considering how long she'd been tagging along and immersing herself in this work following the K-9 units etc. She must have been aware of what can go wrong too and witnessed young dogs OTT in their work or not 'outing' immediately etc because they're training, so are not going to be perfect and at the stage you'd expect of them once out on the frontlines etc.

That said, I do think enough is enough. She's clarified what happened, she made a stupid personal rant, but what's done is done. I'm sure she'll still continue filming her upcoming programme and I'm sure she probably feels embarrassed by the whole situation now.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

"When the dog was finally released to jump into the helicopter, he immediately saw me there and instinctively went in for a bite. He was on for a few seconds and didn’t release until he was pulled off by the handler and another officer."

I know sod all about training police dogs - am I wrong to find the only thing particularly surprising about this is the fact she was sitting there?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

labradrk said:


> Yup, people who have been given very high doses of opiate pain killers are inevitably conked out. I can't imagine getting on social media and typing out an articulated rant at such a time. Social media is SUCH a powerful tool these days and she made the mistake of utilizing it when, in her words, she was "pissed" which in the context of the situation was unprofessional. I doubt anyone blames her for being pissed off, no one in their right mind wants to get bitten and especially not by a powerful dog, but it's always going to be a danger/hazard of the job when you are working in close quarters with driven bite work trained dogs. She just didn't need to articulate her feelings in that way on social media which in hindsight I'm sure she won't do again.


Oh I don't know about being conked out after high doses of opiate painkillers. After my knee op, I was on god knows what and as high as a kite. I sent some very odd emails and texts to friends and relatives. Then I came down like a ton of bricks and sent out another load of texts and emails telling everyone how bad I felt.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Oh I don't know about being conked out after high doses of opiate painkillers. After my knee op, I was on god knows what and as high as a kite. I sent some very odd emails and texts to friends and relatives. Then I came down like a ton of bricks and sent out another load of texts and emails telling everyone how bad I felt.


It effects everyone differently of course, just based on observations of what I see daily  VS posted on FB a couple of days after the incident, so it was pointed out that at time it was doubtful her comments were influenced specifically by the 'fog' of painkillers.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Yes, I'm very serious. She should apologize for her "handler error" comment. It was uncalled for.
> You don't think she didn't know the risks of putting herself in that position? *Oh my, if she didn't know the risk of being close to dogs working then she is even more lacking in knowledge than I previously thought and even less in a position to judge what these dogs and handlers do*.





Sweety said:


> Well, to claim she posted the rant on FB when she was in a "drugged up haze" doesn't seem to add up to me.
> 
> Her whole rant was lucid, focused, well punctuated, etc., not what you would expect from someone who was unable to think clearly.
> 
> ...


So throwing that back at you both if it was so obvious that this might have happened why weren't precautions taken to make sure it didn't such as the very simple step of using a muzzle or protective clothing for VS?



Sosha said:


> "When the dog was finally released to jump into the helicopter, he immediately saw me there and instinctively went in for a bite. He was on for a few seconds and didn't release until he was pulled off by the handler and another officer."
> 
> I know sod all about training police dogs - am I wrong to find the only thing particularly surprising about this is the fact she was sitting there?


What was she supposed to be doing in the helicopter whilst observing an exercise? not much she could do other than sit there or have I misunderstood your question?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, as I understand it, she wanted to be there to observe how these dogs are trained. If they're not normally trained wearing a muzzle, would it have been reasonable to muzzle them, just to protect Victoria Stillwell?

I assume the handlers/trainers of these dogs wouldn't randomly allow members of the public to be present at these training exercises, and she was there at her request and, presumably, as a trainer who knew what she was doing.

As we all know, even the best trained dogs can be unpredictable sometimes, so, as a knowledgeable trainer, which she purports to be, surely she knew the risks?

To then go public, blaming the incident on the handler and ranting about how angry she is was totally unacceptable and unprofessional.

She herself has said that the handlers visited her in hospital and could not have been kinder to her.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Wow, so trial by social media is better? I do not believe in covering up incompetence or lack of protocol or dangerous behaviour at all but I am in favour of highlighting issues/accidents/incidents with the relevent teams & going through correct procedure, with facts not just my opinions or feelings about an incident I may have been involved in. Otherwise how can incidents be assessed on facts? How can measures be taken to reduce these incidents reoccurring? It's not about 'not talking' at all but more about talking in the right way with the right people.
> 
> Crying to your followers that your daughter is upset & blaming a handler who has no right to respondis not fair & certainly not professional. I wonder how she would have reacted had one of the crew been bitten on her TV programme where she was handling certain dogs? Doubt she would have been impressed had they posted similar comments


I don't believe in trial by social media either, which is why I'm not on FB or twitter etc but to turn that around the one appearing to be on trial by social media to me is VS, she said something she shouldn't have whilst upset/in pain/under the influence of medication, then removed it - not sure many of us know how we would react in that situation either. I do not agree with protocols of secrecy and I would hope the relevant authorities will make contact with all parties involved to try to sort out the facts from the gossip and make recommendations. To me this smacks a bit of the old days when women had to put up with sexual discrimination or bullying at work because to complain was seen as a sign of weakness - not hard enough to play with the boys. Before anyone starts shouting I am not saying she was bullied or discriminated against just that the whole be brave and suck it up thing reminds me of that.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Well, as I understand it, she wanted to be there to observe how these dogs are trained. *If they're not normally trained wearing a muzzle, would it have been reasonable to muzzle them, just to protect Victoria Stillwell*?
> 
> I assume the handlers/trainers of these dogs wouldn't randomly allow members of the public to be present at these training exercises, and she was there at her request and, presumably, as a trainer who knew what she was doing.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily but it might have been advisable to have her in some protective clothing (although I can't see the harm in the dog wearing a muzzle either) if the risk of this happening was so high. My point is if she should have been able to foresee the risk/likelihood of this happening then so should the person who allowed her into the helicopter.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't believe in trial by social media either, which is why I'm not on FB or twitter etc but to turn that around the one appearing to be on trial by social media to me is VS, she said something she shouldn't have whilst upset/in pain/under the influence of medication, then removed it - not sure many of us know how we would react in that situation either. I do not agree with protocols of secrecy and I would hope the relevant authorities will make contact with all parties involved to try to sort out the facts from the gossip and make recommendations. To me this smacks a bit of the old days when women had to put up with sexual discrimination or bullying at work because to complain was seen as a sign of weakness - not hard enough to play with the boys. Before anyone starts shouting I am not saying she was bullied or discriminated against just that the whole be brave and suck it up thing reminds me of that.


I don't necessarily believe she should just have to be brave and suck it up either.

If she genuinely felt aggrieved, or that she had been put in a dangerous or risky situation, she has every right to feel badly done by and say so if she wishes.

I think though that most feel Facebook wasn't the place to do that, where everyone can see it and the handler she was blaming may not.

She may feel she wasn't properly protected but she herself has certainly been very unfair to the handler of the dog who, after all, meant her no harm.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

I wonder if she would have accepted protective clothing..... might have spoilt her image?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't believe in trial by social media either, which is why I'm not on FB or twitter etc but to turn that around the one appearing to be on trial by social media to me is VS, she said something she shouldn't have whilst upset/in pain/under the influence of medication, then removed it - not sure many of us know how we would react in that situation either. I do not agree with protocols of secrecy and I would hope the relevant authorities will make contact with all parties involved to try to sort out the facts from the gossip and make recommendations. To me this smacks a bit of the old days when women had to put up with sexual discrimination or bullying at work because to complain was seen as a sign of weakness - not hard enough to play with the boys. Before anyone starts shouting I am not saying she was bullied or discriminated against just that the whole be brave and suck it up thing reminds me of that.


Yes she did say something she shoudn't have .... & did she apologise for it? No she didn't, she defended herself & her training methods rather than admit she was wrong to blame the handler of the dog involved ... who I would have thought would not be allowed to comment & defend him/herself & wouldn't be able to reach such numbers that VS can anyway.

As said before, I do not agree with some of the crappy comments made by some 'trainers' regarding his more positive training methods, to me, that was not the discussion & they are missing the point but then she chose to make this incident public & did so in a very childish way so this is the fallout.

But, I suppose in the world of celebrities, all publicity is good publicity & maybe this incident will boost ratings for her show ....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bogdog said:


> I wonder if she would have accepted protective clothing..... might have spoilt her image?


meow meow.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I still cannot get my head round why it is ok for a police dog to attack and injure someone who is innocently sitting down where the dog happens to be. I assume the dogs were not being given a command to go into the helicopter and search for suspects - or it that was so why the heck was she put in there ahead of the dog! I also have always hoped that if someone is not running away the dog would leave them alone.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I still cannot get my head round why it is ok for a police dog to attack and injure someone who is innocently sitting down where the dog happens to be. I assume the dogs were not being given a command to go into the helicopter and search for suspects - or it that was so why the heck was she put in there ahead of the dog! I also have always hoped that if someone is not running away the dog would leave them alone.


It's not 'ok', who said it was? but sh*t is going to happen sometimes when you are working with dogs in a high state of arousal, dogs mess up sometimes, and humans most definitely suffer from a poor sense of judgement and/or set their dogs up to fail. No one can comment on the specifics of the situation and why it happened. All we know was that she got bit.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I still cannot get my head round why it is ok for a police dog to attack and injure someone who is innocently sitting down where the dog happens to be. I assume the dogs were not being given a command to go into the helicopter and search for suspects - or it that was so why the heck was she put in there ahead of the dog! I also have always hoped that if someone is not running away the dog would leave them alone.


She did say that she had always wanted to sit in a helicopter, so when given the chance, she jumped at it.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So throwing that back at you both if it was so obvious that this might have happened why weren't precautions taken to make sure it didn't such as the very simple step of using a muzzle or protective clothing for VS?


Okay, several points I'm going to try and make somewhat coherently here, bear with me 

Putting a bite suit on VS would not have necessarily been the wisest choice either. One, it makes her MORE of a target, not less of one. The bite suit is a cue to the dog, and it may not have been a cue they wanted to give the dog.
Secondly, putting a bite suit on someone inexperienced in helper work is never a good idea, even less so in the close quarters of a helicopter with no real room to maneuver. 
As for the muzzle, again not being there, not being a K9 trainer, not going to judge. I know some dogs are muzzled for transport, but it doesn't sound like this was a transport exercise. 
From her own account: "As they fired it up and got the blades rolling, the dog outside was clearly becoming revved up - excited to 'go to work' - and prepping for the type of work these dogs are bred and trained to do." It doesn't sound like a transport exercise to me, but then, I wasn't there and I'm not going to claim to know better than a very experienced handler at a seminar with other very experienced handlers.

Honestly, for all we know, there were several safety measures put in place and maybe she failed to follow one? None of us know. We're only getting her account, and if the Alabama PD is anything like the ones I'm familiar with, the officer in question will not be at liberty to divulge his "side" of the story, certainly not on social media of any form. Nor do I expect the event organizers to have anything to say other than it was an accident. 
This is part of why it's in such bad form for her to say anything other than "got bitten at work today, man it sucks" or something to that effect. But she didn't. She said it was "handler error" and the handler in question doesn't get a chance to speak on his own behalf.

Let me try to make an analogy - and I'm not comparing life or death training here, I'm comparing risk assessment.
Last night I was at a softball game. (Contrary to the name, the ball is not at all soft.) In both baseball and softball, pop-up foul balls are fairly common, and most (all?) fields have a high protective fence behind home plate to protect spectators from pop-up balls. However, often balls go over the fence and head in to the spectator area where spectators are expected to be paying attention and move out of the way of the falling ball. If you have young kids with you playing in the grass as is often the case, you also keep an eye on them. Sometimes someone misjudges where the ball is going to land, the sun gets in your eyes, you get distracted, you just miss. It happens. Then someone gets hit by a ball and yep, it hurts. But here's the thing. It's a known risk of going to ball games that you have to watch for foul balls. Yes, there are safety measures in place, but no safety measure is fool proof. You also have to pay attention and not be glued to your phone and if you are, look up when the stands erupt in cries of "heads up". And sometimes, despite all precautions, $hit happens. It's not anyone's fault, you certainly don't go blaming the 12 year old players on the field, you just shrug it off, chalk it up to "live and learn" and move on.

Hanging out with high drive dogs means you're going to get bitten at some point or another. We can discuss training and safety all day long but at the end of the day, it is what it is.
It's kind of like riding horses, the longer you do it the greater the chance that at some point you're going to fall off. And when you do, you hope it's a quick dirt bath and you're back on board in no time, but sometimes it's more involved - $hit happens.

Not to minimize her injuries, but she doesn't have any stitches, just puncture wounds. To me that suggests an accident, not a major training failure. And let's not forget, this was a training scenario. If things are going to go wrong, you want them to go wrong in a training scenario not out in the field. I'm quite sure the folks involved have addressed the issue and are making any adjustments needed.



Blitz said:


> I still cannot get my head round why it is ok for a police dog to attack and injure someone who is innocently sitting down where the dog happens to be. I assume the dogs were not being given a command to go into the helicopter and search for suspects - or it that was so why the heck was she put in there ahead of the dog!


I'm not sure anyone is saying it is okay for a police dog to attack and injure someone just innocently sitting there?
We don't know if she was "just sitting there" we don't know what the training scenario was or what happened that caused the dog to bite. 
And if it was a case of the dog biting someone "just sitting there" again, it was a training scenario so obviously it will be addressed with the dog's training. 
It sounds like it was this dog's first experience with a helicopter, I don't know about your dogs, but with mine, I would expect some "training failures" when they are first exposed to loud spinning blades, wind kicking up, and a roaring motor LOL!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I may be wrong, but from what I see, her latest series is about the work of Police Dogs, filmed over time whilst she tagged along.

Would it be fair to say that she has used her involvement with these dogs and their handlers to her own advantage and yet not hesitated to vilify them when something goes wrong?


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

If only she had asserted herself as The Pack Leader, this never would have happened


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2016)

I thought this was a good read:
http://www.k9workingheroes.co.uk/bl...police-dogs-be-trained-with-positive-methods/


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

To be honest I have thought about quitting IPO several times because of the training methods, there are people in the sport who are force free but they all live over 2 hours drive away which sadly isn't an option for me on a regular basis. But I carry on because the dog loves it & I just try and learn the best I can how to train things a different way


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Nataliee said:


> To be honest I have thought about quitting IPO several times because of the training methods, there are people in the sport who are force free but they all live over 2 hours drive away which sadly isn't an option for me on a regular basis. But I carry on because the dog loves it & I just try and learn the best I can how to train things a different way


But as you say, it depends on what you & your dog get out of it. I always try to use positive methods (but don't profess to be 'force-free' though) & have never felt forced in to using something I'm not comfortable with by anyone I train with. Some people use harsher methods then I would but tbh their dogs don't seem to suffer because of it maybe because their timing is good, the dogs are strong enough to deal with it, they get such enjoyment out of the training as a whole, & there is always lots of play & motivating exercises, etc.

There was an article a while ago about positive not meaning permissive which was spot on (I can't remember who it was by now!) & I think at times people can get confused. I think I have learnt more about this & tried to be more effective in my training (am still learning alot though), not let things slip, & to be consistent with everything especially with a high drive dog like Archer


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> But as you say, it depends on what you & your dog get out of it. I always try to use positive methods (but don't profess to be 'force-free' though) & have never felt forced in to using something I'm not comfortable with by anyone I train with. Some people use harsher methods then I would but tbh their dogs don't seem to suffer because of it maybe because their timing is good, the dogs are strong enough to deal with it, they get such enjoyment out of the training as a whole, & there is always lots of play & motivating exercises, etc.
> 
> There was an article a while ago about positive not meaning permissive which was spot on (I can't remember who it was by now!) & I think at times people can get confused. I think I have learnt more about this & tried to be more effective in my training (am still learning alot though), not let things slip, & to be consistent with everything especially with a high drive dog like Archer


I left the club that made me feel pressured & I am much happier where I am and agree that I have witnessed harsher methods used and the dogs don't appear particularly bothered, I've also seen dogs go back at the handler when harsh methods have been used. I need to learn so much more, it can just be a bit demotivating sometimes when someone says you're not going to achieve that without doing this...


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> Some people use harsher methods then I would but tbh their dogs don't seem to suffer because of it maybe because their timing is good, the dogs are strong enough to deal with it, they get such enjoyment out of the training as a whole, & there is always lots of play & motivating exercises, etc.


And to play devil's advocate, some people who profess to be "all positive" and "dog friendly" are anything but...
Any trainer who genuinely cares about dogs and has good observation skills is going to endeavor to do their best by that dog regardless of what "methods" umbrella they fall under.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I have not read all the posts but for me, dogs are being desensitised to helicopters, dog is in state of high arousal, dog is asked to enter a confined space where his sense of smell, sight and hearing may have been seriously disturbed due to noise, vibration, dust and/or the wearing of ear defenders, huge contrast between light of outside to helicopter interior, unprotected individual in the back unused to being around highly charged police dogs, MAJOR failure on dog handler/trainers/protocols dog should have worn a MUZZLE so this situation was entirely preventable and avoidable.

We do not know if the dogs were PAT (patrol arm true) in which case they evidently were not or non compliance dogs, in any event in the US we must remember that police including dog handlers and their dogs have to face gun toting crims daily and thus their dogs may be a little more "assertive" than many used say in the UK.


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## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Why are the dogs more assertive? 

Not sure what that means?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2016)

toffee44 said:


> Why are the dogs more assertive?
> 
> Not sure what that means?


It takes a certain type of dog who will keep focused on the task of taking down a suspect in the face of gunfire.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Gun toting crims in the UK are in the minority, not so in the US, where the obsession with being able to defend oneself lead campaginer to be shot by their own child

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...on-driving-Florida-boy-pistol-seat-truck.html

If I was a dog handler in the US I would want what we often call a "non compliance" dog in the UK at my side, ie one that does not care where it bites as long as it gets hold of em!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> If I was a dog handler in the US I would want what we often call a "non compliance" dog in the UK at my side, ie one that does not care where it bites as long as it gets hold of em!


Yeah, we don't call those "non compliance dogs" we just call 'em patrol K9s 

Though not for nothing, a lot of departments are switching to either dual purpose (detection and patrol) or detection only dogs. It's just not worth the liability and the cost to have a patrol dog.


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