# Genetics and Breeding



## carly87

Ok, folks. Some of you asked to see my information on genetics, so here you go. I take no responsibility for the headache that it's going to give you!

I'd ask that you please not copy or reproduce this without asking first.

So, your cat is pregnant. One of the most common questions people ask is what colour the kittens will be. This all comes down to genetics. I&#8217;ll start with the basics.

What is a gene?
In its simplest form, a gene is a part of your DNA. It is a chain of different molecules which code for the production of a protein in the body. These proteins and coding strands are responsible for many things from hair colour to height, skin tone and even weight to some extent (no, that can&#8217;t be used as a valid reason to go eat chocolate!). In short, genes are the things that make you look the way you do. They are passed to you from your mother and your father. In this article, I&#8217;ll be looking at genes specifically linked to coat colour and pattern.

How do we get genes?
At the point of fertilization, a sperm from the father and an egg from the mother join. Each of these cells carries genetic or DNA information which binds together when the cells join. DNA is housed on things called chromosomes. Most are x-shaped, one half being formed from the mother&#8217;s DNA and the other from the father&#8217;s. Genes therefore have a pair partner on the opposite strand of the chromosome. However, whereas a female possesses all X shaped chromosomes, a male has one in each cell that is a Y shape. It is missing a leg. This means that genes on the opposite corresponding leg have no pair partner. Cat coat colour genes exist on this chromosome, which explains why girls only are torties. Boys can only express one colour at a time due to not having a pair partner in the DNA for the colour gene. Those male torties that do exist are sterile. This is because they not only have an x-y chromosome as normal males do, but they have an XXY set-up, meaning they have an extra, unwanted chromosome. This has the added effect of making them sterile.

Dominant and Recessive
Genes come in two types. These are called dominant and recessive. Dominant genes do what their name suggests; they dominate. Just one dominant gene will mean that a cat exhibits the trait linked to that gene. Recessives cannot manifest alone. There needs to be two recessives in order for the physical trait to be noticed. To understand genes, you need to remember that they always come in pairs, one from the mother and one from the father. When it comes to coat colour, the recessive gene commonly seen is called a dilute gene. This is because it dilutes the true colour of the coat to form something else.

A person can be said to be a carrier of a recessive, but not a dominant. Why? Because carriers possess the gene, but do not show the physical trait. Remember, if a person, or a cat has a dominant gene, they will show that trait even if they only have one dominant. So, if they have a dominant, they cannot carry the gene because they show the trait. The same is true if they possess two recessives. However, if they have only one recessive, then they will possess the gene but not the trait, so can be called a carrier. This will be important when we come on to predicting colour possibilities in cats.

Speaking of cats, let&#8217;s get to colour. Believe it or not, there are only two true colours in cats. Despite the profusion of different coloured coats and combinations out there, they all come from only two colours. Those are black and red. Every coat colour&#8217;s genetics can be traced back to either black or red. But how? That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m going to try and explain. And that&#8217;s when it gets complicated.

Dilutes, the recessives remember, are very important in coat colour in cats, as they allow deviation from the blacks and reds. Black and red are dominant, but the dilutes, even though they are recessive, are able to work in tandem with this dominant to alter it. If a cat has the dominant gene for black, but also possesses two dilute genes, then instead of black, their coat will turn blue. Likewise, if another cat has the dominant for red, two dilutes will work with the red gene to produce a cream coat.

But you&#8217;ve seen cats that show black and red together, haven&#8217;t you? Or cats who show blue and cream? Well, that&#8217;s very common. These cats are called torties and blue torties/blue-creams. Most of them are female, but a very small percentage can be male. Females exhibit black and red or the dilute forms of them due to having two x chromosomes. So although the two are dominant, they can both exist in harmony given their position on chromosomes. If a boy had two x chromosomes, he could do the same thing.

So, by the logic we&#8217;ve already explored, you couldn&#8217;t have a cat with red and cream in its coat. Why? Because it takes two dilute genes to make cream, and if you have two dilutes, they cancel out the red. Similarly, you couldn&#8217;t have a cat with black and blue. The same is true when you look at red and blue or cream and black. I hope you understand why. Remember, two recessives/dilutes code for cream and blue, so when they&#8217;re there, they cancel out the red and black. Blue-cream exists together because both are dilute colours. Red and black exist together because both are dominant colours.

Chocolate and cineamon
Just to complicate things further, there&#8217;s another way that colours can vary. Well, there&#8217;s more than one, but let&#8217;s keep it simple. Chocolate is an alteration of the black dominant gene. So imagine a black gene with an extension which changes it to chocolate and you're close to understanding how it works. Chocolate, of course,can also be altered by a dilute. Confused? I was for a long time. Basically, chocolate acts like a recessive gene. That means, as with the dilute, that two copies of chocolate must exist before the cat can have a chocolate colour visible on its coat. One copy alone makes the cat a chocolate carrier. However, here&#8217;s where things get extra tricky. Chocolate can itself be modified by that old friend, the dilute. If a cat has two copies of chocolate and two dilutes, then it makes lilac. Obviously, if a cat only has one dilute then chocolate still wins. If it has only one chocolate, then the dilute will act on the dominant coat colour, red or black.

Ready for more complication? Chocolate cannot impact the red gene, so if you have a red boy or girl, they can have two copies of the chocolate gene and not show it. They can also have two copies of the dilute and still not show chocolate or lilac, although in this case, the base colour of the coat would be cream, not red (remember, red plus two dilutes =cream).

Now to come on to cineamon. Keeping it as simple as possible, cineamon is also an alteration of the black gene, but in order for cineamon to be expressed, then the chocolate extension to the black gene must already be in place. Thus, to have a chocolate cat, you must have the black gene. To have a cineamon coloured cat, you must have the chocolate extension or part of the black gene already there.

Then if you add in a dilute to that mix, a cineamon cat becomes a fawn.

White: Although this isn&#8217;t exactly a colour, it is almost like a trump card, for if copies of a white gene exist, they mask all other colours. So even if a cat possesses the genetic make-up to be a tortie, it will still appear white due to the masking properties of this gene. Even if only one copy exists, the cat will still be white. This is the ace of spades when it comes to colours!

So, to recap:
Black and red are dominant, so only one copy is necessary to see a physical trait presented.
Dilute is recessive. If only one copy exists, a cat is a dilute carrier. If two copies exist, black cats become blues, red cats become creams, and tortie cats become blue-creams
Chocolate acts like a recessive gene which only modifies the black dominant. Any reds with two copies of the chocolate gene will remain red but can be referred to as red chocolates. Two copies of the gene on a black cat will make it a chocolate. One copy will make any cat a chocolate carrier.
The dilute modifies chocolate, if two copies exist, to become lilac.
White is the trump gene, masking all other colours. Any cat with even one copy of the white gene will appear as all white. Any cat with two copies of the gene will consistently produce offspring who are all white.

Ok, now that we have that sorted, we do, don&#8217;t we? It&#8217;s time to move on to patterns.

Colourpoint is a recessive gene, so two copies are necessary for a cat to be pointed.
Tabby is a dominant, so only one copy is necessary for tabby to become the pattern.
Bicolour is also dominant. When one copy of the gene is present, a black cat becomes a black and white bicolour, a red cat a red and white bicolour, and a tortie a dominant tortie and white. Remember that with the influence of the dilute, you can also get blue and white bicolours and cream and white, as well as dilute tortie and white. If a cat has two copies of the gene, it will be mostly white and will be called a van.
Shaded/smoke/shell: This too is dominant. One copy alone makes a black cat a black smoke, a red cat a red smoke and a tortie a tortie smoke. The smoke gene varies in its expression though, producing something called variable penetrance. This basically deals with the length of the hair shaft that the colour extends to. Smokes have a hair shaft that is mostly coloured, but with a white undercoat. When the colour extends 50% down the shaft, the cat is a shaded rather than a smoke. Some cats have colour just on the tips of the shaft, and these are called shells.

There is one final pattern, silver/golden, but it is quite a complex one to explain given that it is a combination of three genes working together. If any of you wish to know more, please write me privately and I&#8217;ll direct you to an informative article to read.

Ok, now to colour prediction at last. There are two ways to do this. The first is to look at a cat&#8217;s pattern and work through it until you reduce the genes to the dominant red or black (remember, every pattern is made from these colours). This is called de-construction. The second way is to take the cat and begin with black or red, adding the modifier genes until you come up with the existing pattern. This is often what we breeders have to do to work out the possibilities for colour and pattern from specific matings. I will give you examples of each and talk you through how to do them. I&#8217;ll start with de-construction, as it&#8217;s probably a bit easier. I&#8217;ll concentrate on tabbies, colourpoints and bicolours as these are easier to get to grips with.

Deconstruction
1.	A blue tabby. First of all, remove the tabby gene. This leaves you with a blue cat. Then remove the dilute to leave black.
2.	A cream and white bicolour. Remove the bicolour to leave a cream, then remove the dilute to leave red.
3.	A blue tortie colourpoint. Remove the colourpoint to leave a blue-cream tortie. Remove the dilute to leave tortie.
4.	A white. Remove white to get&#8230; Anything is possible. Remember, white masks any colour or pattern combination.
5.	A lilac tabby colourpoint. Remove the tabby to leave a lilac colourpoint. Remove the colourpoint to leave a lilac. Remove the chocolate to get blue. Remove blue to get black.

Construction.
1.	A cream tabby. Add dilute to red to get cream. Add tabby to cream to get cream tabby.
2.	A blue and white bicolour. Begin with black. Add dilute to get blue, then bicolour to get a blue and white bicolour.
3.	A blue-cream tabby colourpoint. Begin with tortie, red and black. Add dilute to get blue-cream. Add tabby to get a blue-cream tabby. Add colourpoint to get a blue-cream tabby point (also called a blue tortie tabby point).
4.	White. Start with black or red, and add anything you like. As long as you finish with adding white, the cat will appear white, no matter its genetic colouring or patterning.
5.	A red chocolate colourpoint. (Remember, chocolate only modifies the black gene. This cat would actually be seen as a red colourpoint). Start with red. Add chocolate to get red chocolate (this will appear to the eye as still a red cat). Then add colourpoint to get a red choc colourpoint. Note: The cats would be classed by registering bodies as red colourpoints despite carrying two copies of the chocolate gene.

The challenge:
As a breeder or owner of a pregnant cat, you will need to be able to generate colour/pattern possibilities based on the pattern and colour of the mother and father. To this end, I am going to leave you with the colours and patterns involved in a specific mating. Try to predict the colours of kittens the mother might produce. Do remember though that torties or blue-creams are usually only female. Also remember that a tortie mother can pass on either black or red to her offspring, while the father can only pass on one colour.

The mother is a seal tortie colourpoint carrying dilute and chocolate. Seal is a modification of the black gene, but for the application of genetics, treat it as a black gene in your workings out. So in simple terms, she is a tortie colourpoint carrying dilute and chocolate. The father is a cream colourpoint who does not carry chocolate. So, what colour kittens will she produce? For the really enterprising among you, predict whether they will carry chocolate/dilute as well. I&#8217;ll tell you the answer at the end of the article. 

To help you, I will outline the process involved in predicting offspring from a different mating combination.
Mother: blue tortie tabby carrying colourpoint.
Father: chocolate colourpoint. He does not carry dilute.

De-construction:
Mother: remove tabby to leave blue tortie, and dilute to leave tortie.
Father: Remove colourpoint to leave chocolate, and chocolate to leave black.

Combinations:
All kittens will carry dilute, as the mother has two copies and the dad has none. Therefore, blues, creams, lilacs, blue-creams or lilac-creams are not an option, because no kitten will get two copies of the dilute gene.
All kittens will carry colourpoint as the dad has two copies. Colourpoint kittens are a possibility if the mother passes on her single copy to offspring.
If the mother carries two tabby genes, all offspring will be tabby. I know this mother did not, which means tabby is a possibility as she only carries one copy of this dominant gene.
Girl kittens: black, black tabby, seal colourpoint, seal tabby colourpoint, tortie, tortie tabby, seal tortie colourpoint, seal tortie tabby colourpoint.
Boys: black, black tabby, seal colourpoint, seal tabby colourpoint, red, red tabby, red colourpoint, red tabby colourpoint.
Note that boys are not torties, and that boys can be solid red where girls cannot. This is because the father always passes a black gene. Girls, because of their x chromosomes can express both black and red at the same time, but for the boys, it is the mother who has the final say on colour, hence the ability for her red to be expressed. This is because it is the mother who passes on the X chromosome and the father the Y. Remember that the colour genes are on the leg of the chromosome missing from the y.

I hope this has been helpful, and sorry it&#8217;s been so long and confusing!

Answers:
From the above mating, you can expect to see the following:
All kittens will either show dilute colours of blue or cream, or will be dilute carriers.
Kittens may or may not be chocolate carriers, but there is no way to tell.
All kittens will be colourpoints.
Girls: red, cream, seal tortie, bluecream.
Boys: seal, blue, red, cream.


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## Alaskacat

Wow!!!

Thank you, I think I understand most of it and was close at the end. Please can you just clarify why there are no blue girls?

I used a pen and paper and can show my workings. 

I think you deserve a stiff virtual drink!!!


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## carly87

Never thought a forum post could make me blush! I'm glad it's been useful.


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## Puindoors

Hi CARLY,

you're mostly right but there are a few errors in there. I'll have another look at it later, got to go do dinner for the hungry hoardes! Genetics is my thing, feel free to ask any questions!

Dominant and Recessive
Genes come in two types.

Not true I'm afraid, many genes have a variety of possiblities called 'alleles' and many d onot show a simply domniant or recessive relationship. For example there are a whole spectrum of possiblities with some characteristics, its not matter of one or the other.

Chocolate
Just to complicate things further, theres another way that colours can vary. Well, theres more than one, but lets keep it simple. Chocolate is an alteration of the black dominant gene.

Choclate is an allele of black, its a different form of the black gene, Cinnamon is another form of the black gene. Black is dominant to chocolate, which is dominant to cinnamon. There is no additional modifier gene involved.

Dilute is a separate gene to one of the pigment genes, it does the same thing to any pigment, i.e makes the pigmant more diffuse in the hair shafts.


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## carly87

Hi there, Emma

Point taken on the chocolate. I'd copied this from an older version and hadn't realised.

As for dominants and recessives, I know there's more to it than that, but wanted to keep it as simple as possible for those just starting out in genetics.

I'll change the chocolate bit, but if you pick up on anything else, please let me know and I'll fix it.

Carly


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## carly87

Ok, I've changed the chocolate bit and included cineamon. Please remember, folks, that I'm trying to simplify a very complex subject, so go easy on me as I know I'm not using the correct terminology. My OCD is screaming at me to fix it, but I won't, as it makes it more difficult to understand.


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## Puindoors

In the courses I've written I use the analogy of a childs shape sorting toy.

Each chromosome is a shape sorting toy, there are 18 pairs of toys, and 1 not identical pair 0 the sex chromosomes.

Each 'gene' in each chromosome is a shaped hole in the toy, e..g round, triangle, square, star etc. So each cat will have 2 possible 'pegs' for each gene, they can be the same - homozygous, or different -heterozygous.

In the 'round' hole for the Eumelanin pigment there are 3 possible pegs, black, chocolate and cinnamon, all 3 are 'round' pegs ( produce eumelanin) BUT the shape of the grains of pigment are different - hence the percieved change in colour.


The 'star' shaped hole has pegs which code for the amount of pigment in each hair, e.g. dilute. So whatever colour is produced (Eumalanin for black, Phaeomelanin for red) the amount is determined by this gene.

Another 'hole' is where the genes for colourpoint sit, these are again an example of multiple 'pegs' fitting the same hole.
C is the allele in normal colouration and is dominant to all the others.
cs produces a colour point/Siamese pattern
cb is co-dominant with cs and produces a Burmese pattern
c is recessive to all other alleles can produces albinism.

The toy which holds the hole for the phaeomelanin gene is on the 2 dis similar chromosomes ( toys) the sex cells. there is only a slot on the X chromosome ( female has 2, male has 1).

The red gene is very strong, it forces hairs to produce phaeomelanin, this doesn't mean the original 'round' hole on the other choromosome is not filled with the black/choc/cinnamon peg, its still there just 'covered' by the red influence.


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## carly87

See, this analogy confused me more because I ended up concentrating ondifferent shaped holes and not really understanding dominance issues. I guess it's different strokes for different folks. It's a great description!


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## notsure

Thanks for the post - and thankyou for putting it in laymans terms.

I had a quick skim through and kind of got the right answers - will go through it again properly and try again tomorrow.


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## lisa306

Excellant Carly. you deserve a sticky for this!
Very easy to undersand,


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## carly87

Really? You think it's good enough for a sticky? Blushing all over again now!

Really glad it made it easy for you to understand. Emma's description is great too. Emma, you gave me dreams of star shaped holes and trying to find the right thing to go in them last night... No joke!


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## Puindoors

It doesn't matter which analogy works for an individual, as long as people involved in breeding understand how genetics works. The 'sorting toys' works with many people as I find throwing in the 'correct' terminology of gene loci, alleles, dominance sequences, epistatic genes etc usually has the effect of glazed eyeballs!

For example a scientific explanation of why no 2 torties are the same goes something like this:

Most genes are carried on the autosomes (non-sex chromosomes) and are therefore inherited independently of the cats gender. However the gene associated with red colouration via the production of phaeomelanin (red pigment) is carried on the X chromosome. Note I said 'associated with' not responsible for as this gene does not directly cause the production of red pigment...........

The dominant allele of this gene termed O creates a cat with only phaeomelanin pigment (red/cream) and no eumelanin (black/chocolate/cinnamon) pigment expression. The recessive allele o allows for eumelanin pigment to be produced.
So the 'red gene' doesn't produce red (the capacity for producing red is always there) its effect is to turn 'off'the production of the more dominant black pigment, leaving the cell to produce only the phaeomelanin pigment.


As this gene resides on the X chromosome females will have two alleles of this gene, e.g. they can be homozygous ( OO or oo) or heterozygous (Oo) for the trait. Male cats having only one X chromosome have one copy of the gene, therefore they are either red (O) or not red (o).
However in females a process termed lyonisation occurs, as only one X chromosome is needed for the functioning of each cell, one X chromosome is randomly, permanantly inactivated in each cell. At a very early stage of embryonic life, each cell inactivated one X chromosome, as the cells divide clumps of cells with the same X chromosome inactivated occur as each early cell multiplies. The population of cells resulting from each initial cell will have one colour at their disposal, thus if the cat is heterozygous for red (Oo) different areas have different colours and a tortoiseshell colour pattern is produced. The patches represent groups of cells descended from a common embryonic cell. In pigment cells where the X chromosome containing the O allele is active, only red/cream will be produced. In pigment cells where the X chromosome contains the o allele black/chocolate/fawn colour will result depending on the allele present for eumelanin.


If you've got this far in this post WELL DONE LOL!

The story of why all cats are tabbies, and why red cats without the 'tabby gene' are usually still stripey its equally fascinating to other genetic nuts like myself, but it'll probably give you a headache, does me!


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## OrientalSlave

A good post. My thoughts are that:

1) the O gene must be dominant to the B/b/b1 series otherwise a cat would need two of them to be orange

2) all cats have tabby genes, but a black self (for example) has two of the recessive versions of A - Agouti. Of course a tabby can can be either AA or Aa - the later carries the recessive version and with a self cat, or another carrying that same gene, can produce self kittens.

3) If the kitten has inherited the white spotting gene (W) the lyonisation happens earlier, so instead of the finely mingled black (or chocolate or cinamon) and ginger you get distinct patches - a calico cat, patches or black (or tabby), ginger and white.

4) the version of melanin in ginger fur isn't affected (or is affected far less) by non-agoutie so *all* ginger cats, and all ginger bits in other cats, show a tabby pattern. How much depends on the rest of the cat's genotype. For a self cat you want as few as possible for the polygenes controlling how clear a tabby pattern is, but nevertheless it would still be a bit of a puzzle for many folks looking at a 'red self' (or cream or apricot) on the showbench. I'm sure I've seen some that had clearer tabby patterns than the tabby reds / creams / apricots!

Dominant and Recessive
Genes come in two types. 

The B / b / b1 series, and the incomplete dominance of Cb over Cs (Burmese over Siamese) are examples - maybe the main ones in cats - where this is not the case. AFAIK the white spotting gene is another example, but it seems to be affected somewhat by polygeners.

Polygenes are additional genes affecting, for example, the clarity of markings on a tabby cat. They are not the main genes, but can have a profound influence on just how good on the showbench a cat is. They are the ones that selective breeding can influence. A blue cat is a blue cat, but is it the *right* blue?


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## notsure

Puindoors said:


> For example a scientific explanation of why no 2 torties are the same goes something like this:


That actually makes a lot of sense to me, and I now understand torties.

It also makes it easier to understand why torties are more often female - If I understood it correctly for a male to be a tortie it would need to be xxy rather than just xy.

Oh and I agree this thread should definitely be made a sticky.


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## carly87

Emma, this is super. Keep it coming!


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## Puindoors

Male torties are very interesting, the following is an excerpt from a feline studies Diploma

approximately one out of every 1000 tortoiseshell cats are male. This seemingly impossible occurrence can be explain in several ways.

1. Klinefelters Syndrome.
The male is a genetic anomaly and has inherited 2 X chromosomes (XXY) rather than the normal one ( XY). This fault is linked to an error in the formation of the egg cell that distributes an extra X chromosome into the fertilised egg, males with this genotype are almost universally sterile. It is not known how common Klinefelters syndrome is, as males who are not tortie could equally have the condition, and if neutered before breeding an owner would be unaware of the condition.

2. Mosaicism.
This is the result of a somatic ( body cell) mutation and causes ginger cats to have small black spots, much like moles or birthmarks in humans. Mosaics occur when a mistake during cell division in the early embryo stops the correct number of chromosomes segregating to each cell, or creates a mutation in a single gene. Where this happens in one of the first few cell divisions after fertilisation, a large proportion of cells will inherit the mutation or chromosomal anomaly. Occasionally, these black blemishes may be large enough to give the appearance of a tortoiseshell cat, albeit one with a low amount of black. The size of the black patches may also depend on how early in embryo development the mutation happened. Very late and it gives a spot or speckle, earlier the black patches are larger as the cells multiply during embryo growth. Somatic mutation is rarely noticed in female cats because tortoiseshell is an unremarkable colour of females - it may be noticed if a black or tortoiseshell female kitten appears in a litter where black or tortoiseshell is a genetically impossible outcome of the mating. In red and white cats where there is a lot of white, the addition of even small black patches can give the appearance of a calico cat.
This phenomenon (somatic mosaicism) is more common and better understood than chimaerism. For example, some mosaics have patches of cells that have an extra chromosome (called trisomy). The individual develops trisomic patches of tissue - an XY male may have some XXY tissues (another potential cause of tortoiseshell male cats).

3. Chimerism.

This condition results from 2 fertilized eggs fusing during early embyogenesis. If the two fertilized eggs (embryos) are both XY, this gives an XY/XY male chimera. In an XY/XY chimaera if one X has the O gene and the other does not then some fur will be red and some black because different parts of the skin originate from different eggs. A mix of any other colours found in male cats is also possible e.g. a mosaic of grey and black. An XY/XY chimera would be fully fertile.
If an XY egg fuses with an XX egg (a male embryo fuses with a female embryo), it gives a XX/XY chimaera containing some tissues/organs which are genetically female and other tissues which are genetically male. In an XX/XY chimaera, X chromosome inactivation occurs. The 3 X chromosomes in the animal may contain an assortment of different colour genes. The physical appearance and the sexual behaviour of an XX/XY chimaera depends on which structures contain which chromosomes. A good example of this is a Maine Coon Solkatz Pretty Boy Floid who is a mix of red, grey and white - a colour combination impossible in a normal XY. Floid was initially thought to be a female because his colour, dilute tortie (blue, cream and white). Floid's second anomaly was discovered when his breeders noticed that the cream portions of his coat were actually red, thus a solid colour as well as a dilute, thirdly Floid was also found to be fertile. The colours of his kittens prove that his testicular tissue came from the red kitten ( in the chimeric mix) as he never sired a blue ( dilute) kitten.


Intresting isn't it, at least I think so, but then again I'm a genetics geek!


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## notsure

Thanks for further clarifying that Puindoors - much appriciated.


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## Alaskacat

Very interesting. Please can this be a sticky as I find it hard to take in all in one go, but it would be a useful tool to come back to when considering a mating?

So glad we have so many experts on here.


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## OrientalSlave

notsure said:


> <snip>
> for a male to be a tortie it would need to be xxy rather than just xy.
> <snip>


Or he could be a mosaic / chimera. There have been a few cases of fertile male torties (one was a Norway Forest Cat), but they didn't breed as a tortie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)
Norwegian Forest Cat Colours| Norwegian Forest Cat Society UK

(look down the page for this, he is mentioned just above the photo of a man holding a mostly white NFC)

THE INDEFINABLE COLOURS
(look for 'Chimera conundrum' near the bottom)


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## carly87

It's incredibly interesint, Emma. I'm a geek myself, and can't get enough of this!


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## Soupie

I spent hours on THE MESSYBEAST when I first started - love genetics.


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## Cats cats cats

This is fascinating !! Maybe someone could explain my boy, Wolfgangs colouring ? ........ He was all black and now he looks smoke  Is this likely to be his final colour ?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-phot...y-nfcs-first-time-garden-without-harness.html


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## HeartofClass

I am looking into learning more about genetics, cat genetics in particular - can any of you guys recommend me a good book or something? Should I just start with cat genetics, or would you say it's important I learn about genetics in general first?


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## we love bsh's

the book of the cat is suppose to be good


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## HeartofClass

I have found this one: Robinson&#039;s Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians : Carolyn M. Vella, Lorraine M. Shelton, John J. McGonagle, Terry W. Stanglein : 9780750640695 
It seems to be exactly what I'd need, but freakin' expensive  If anyone has any input into this book in particular, I'd be glad to know before I go and spend all that money on it.

we love bsh's, have you read that book yourself or is that what you heard? I'm not able to find it on book depository anyway, so if it's not there, there's little chance I'd be able to get it elsewhere.


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## we love bsh's

I dont have this book..i would love this book.Gskinner mentioned this book i think i found one on ebay from US i think but not sure its the one.Its suppose to be an old book it does look old


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## OrientalSlave

Cats cats cats said:


> This is fascinating !! Maybe someone could explain my boy, Wolfgangs colouring ? ........ He was all black and now he looks smoke  Is this likely to be his final colour ?
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-phot...y-nfcs-first-time-garden-without-harness.html


If he's a registered NFC then his papers will tell you what colour his is registered as.


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## carly87

To be honest, I think you'd be an awful lot better learning about genetics as cat genetics are no different to human ones in their simplest forms. From there, you can get more specific and investigate the bits of cat genetics that you want to learn about and have a better background knowledge to make a stab at understanding conditions that you've never heard about before.


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## HeartofClass

Okay, I figured so anyway, especially since literature on specifically cat genetics is rare and usually requires knowledge of genetics in general. Carly, do you know of any good books on genetics? I mean, I would start reading about it on the internet, but in a way I still prefer to learn about new things by reading books, this way I feel it's more genuine and in depth - information on the internet can often be skewed or incorrect IMO, besides, I don't like reading articles or books on the internet, my eyes start to hurt from looking at the computer screen too long


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## carly87

I don't, I'm afraid. I took an A level in human biology where I learned a lot, then a degree in physiotherapy where I learned even more so I got most of what I know from lectures and seminars. It might be worth thinking about printing some bits from the net. That way you can have the best of both worlds. A good genetics book is likely to be very expensive you see.


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## Cats cats cats

OrientalSlave said:


> If he's a registered NFC then his papers will tell you what colour his is registered as.


Well he's registered as Black but he turned smokey  He's losing some of the smoke now though..........either way , he's the best looking NFC in the world


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## Soupie

He looks black - lots of black longhairs get rusty or grey ruffs and fur ends prior to losing their kitten coats....


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## Cats cats cats

Soupie said:


> He looks black - lots of black longhairs get rusty or grey ruffs and fur ends prior to losing their kitten coats....


I wanted a Black NFC but now i'm kind of disappointed that his smoke is disappearing !    his roots are all grey though so maybe it'll come back


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## sharonbee

Wow, this is all amazing, I have only just read this, think I will understand it eventually but will have to read it a few times :confused1: 

It will be really helpful Carly, you have done great, no wonder it has become a sticky. 

Thankyou for all your time and effort putting this together for us all.


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## bubbles1984

Very interesting reading

I am not sure what to expect with my litter. My girl is a tuxedo (black and white) ragdoll. Her mother was a pure black ragdoll and her dad was a mitted seal point. She has been mated to a tabby point, who had a lot of colour on him, quite reddish and black, in comparison to some colour points. 

The stud owner said she believed the black would dominate though admitted this was the first time she had even seen a black ragdoll, so doubted any colour points/creams/reds and I was to expect solid black, tuxedos, and possibly dark tortie or smokes of these colours. Does this sound right? 

Thanks for any advice, I guess it will have to be patient


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## carly87

I can't answer until I know what colour the tabby point is. He can't be red and black so has to be one or the other. Are you definitely sure of your girl's parentage theough? A black and a seal point could only produce solid blacks or seal points, and if they carried dilute, blues and blue points. Alarm bells are ringing. Unless the tabby is red, you won't get any torties, and unless one or both of the parents are smoke, you won't get that either. Is this raggie registered?


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## bubbles1984

Hi mine is not registered but is a pedigree (or so I was told). The stud is. He has black, grey and like very dark cream stripes (what I have called red lol but I am no expert)on his face and shading on his legs and tail. I didn't see my cats dad but I did see her mum who was a full black with no white at all. It was 2 years ago now but I am sure she said the dad was a seal point? I am still in contact with her breeder so I will send her am email now to double check.


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## bubbles1984

now you have me worried!


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## OrientalSlave

bubbles1984 said:


> Very interesting reading
> 
> I am not sure what to expect with my litter. My girl is a tuxedo (black and white) ragdoll. Her mother was a pure black ragdoll
> <snip>


All genuine ragdolls have points... So I'm rather puzzled as to what a 'pure black ragdoll' actually is.


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## bubbles1984

sorry I don't know all the technical terms for the coat colours but her mum (looked to me) was black, with slightly slivery grey undercoat


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## carly87

Doesn't the stud owner know what colour her own boy is?

Sorry, but if the mum was pure black, that's not a full ragdoll you have there. You do get bi-colours, but not from a full black. You are breeding a moggie. Is the stud a full ragdoll? Have either of these cats been genetically tested or scanned for the diseases prevalent in raggies? Have they been tested for FIV/FeLV? If not, you could have just exposed your girl and her kittens to a fatal disease. Breeding moggs really isn't a good idea, as much as I love them. Please think long and hard before you do this again, as you could be opening yourself and new owners up to a whole world of heartache.

Back to colours. If one parent was fully black, then the other would have had to be black or blue bi-colour for you to get a black and white, or perhaps a seal or blue bi-point. So:

If the cat does not carry colourpoint and the stud is a black series tabby (either seal or blue), you will get blacks and blues with our without white (that's assuming that both carry dilute. If they don't, you'll get blacks and black and whites). If your cat carries colourpoint you can add in seals and blue colourpoints with/without white.

If the cat doesn't carry colourpoint and the stud is a red series tabby, i.e red or cream, you will get black/blue boys and black tortie and bluecream girls, all with/without white. If the girl carries colourpoint, you can throw in seal and blue point boys and seal tortie and bluecream point girls, all with or without white. Again, blues and creams depend on both carrying dilute.


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## bubbles1984

Thank you for that. I am confused now with myself. The stud was advertised as a seal tabby point so a presume that's what he was. As I was not planning on registering (due to my cats being not registered and any potential kittens having homes with my family) I didn't take any paper work so I can only go on what I was told. 

Don't worry I wont be doing it again, especially now I have alarms ringing in my head. It my first litter, and has caused nothing but agro, my other two cats are spayed and she will be too x


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## spid

I have a feeling the stud was a brown tabby - many people think the brown is a reddy colour. 

SO you have a black and white girl (not ragdoll) mated with a seal tabby point. As girls dad was a cp she will carry cp

so you will get blacks, brown tabbies, and possibly seal point, and seal tabby points. SOme with white and some not. 

Please, IF you advertise these don't sell them as Ragdolls cos they aren't.


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## OrientalSlave

bubbles1984 said:


> sorry I don't know all the technical terms for the coat colours but her mum (looked to me) was black, with slightly slivery grey undercoat


Black with a slightly silvery grey undercoat sounds like a black cat with an unsound coat. A sound black cat would have fur that is black to the roots, but many non-pedigrees (and many pedigrees!) are greyish at the roots. This is quite different to being a smoke cat - they have bone-white fur at the roots.

So glad you will be neutering her.


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## bubbles1984

Thank you for all the advice I am glad I come on here, its been an eye opener. I am still waiting to hear from her breeder but I am sure she will get back to me as we have kept in touch. I hope its not me that's got totally confused somewhere along the lines. I didn't breed to make money or a hobby and upto now I have four homes already lined up and I am keeping 1 but could take 2 if there's more born. If I do advertise them I will be sure to say ragdoll X just to cover myself. As I am now suspecting that I might have only 3/4 ragdolls! I will let you know if I can shed some light. I just googled classic tabby point ragdoll and that is exactly the colour down to a tee! God I need a drink..


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## we love bsh's

bubbles1984 said:


> Thank you for all the advice I am glad I come on here, its been an eye opener. I am still waiting to hear from her breeder but I am sure she will get back to me as we have kept in touch. I hope its not me that's got totally confused somewhere along the lines. I didn't breed to make money or a hobby and upto now I have four homes already lined up and I am keeping 1 but could take 2 if there's more born. If I do advertise them I will be sure to say ragdoll X just to cover myself. As I am now suspecting that I might have only 3/4 ragdolls! I will let you know if I can shed some light. I just googled classic tabby point ragdoll and that is exactly the colour down to a tee! God I need a drink..


sorry to pop that bubble bubbles but there wont be 3/4 raggies there 100% moggies as they don't have pedigrees to prove parentage.

Not meant to offend you btw.


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## bubbles1984

I am not easily offended 

I can get a copy of the stud cats pedigree and health checks as he was TICA but I declined at time as I said they are to be pets and I have a waiting list of eager family members. If I had to sell that's what I could do to prove at least 1/2 of the parentage! I need kitty Jeremy Kyle! All jokes aside as long as the kittens are healthy and get good homes that's all I am concentrating on.


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## NorthernDarkness

Have the parents been tested negative for HCM?


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## spotty cats

carly87 said:


> Sorry, but if the mum was pure black, that's not a full ragdoll you have there.


TICA recognises solids & minks for registration (not showing), there are also solids in other countries that can be shown, sometimes under a different breed name. There are several solid Ragdoll breeders in the UK, who are registered. 
Pattern includes bi-colours and tabby.

They've been proposed here to be accepted for show.

The Ragdoll in question shouldn't be being bred from however, pets are sold as pets for a reason - it doesn't mean you can just breed them so family members can have pets. 
This is partly why I and others neuter all pets before placement, to keep them out of the hands of BYB's.


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## outsider

_' Believe it or not, there are only two true colours in cats. Despite the profusion of different coloured coats and combinations out there, they all come from only two colours. Those are black and red. Every coat colours genetics can be traced back to either black or red. '_

Wow, thanks it was very interesting. I spent some time to explain chinchillas to people as they usually do not know the breed but looking for a white cat and of course they are not white especially when they are newborns. And as far as I know chinchillas are black cats but due to a 'faulty' gene (sorry, its name escapes me) they become white with black tips and black lining around nose, eyes. And it is very interesting as can be seen the black origin on the paws. White persians (true white persians) have pink paws. Chinchillas have black(ish) paws.


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## spid

outsider said:


> _' Believe it or not, there are only two true colours in cats. Despite the profusion of different coloured coats and combinations out there, they all come from only two colours. Those are black and red. Every coat colours genetics can be traced back to either black or red. '_
> 
> Wow, thanks it was very interesting. I spent some time to explain chinchillas to people as they usually do not know the breed but looking for a white cat and of course they are not white especially when they are newborns. And as far as I know chinchillas are black cats but due to a 'faulty' gene (sorry, its name escapes me) they become white with black tips and black lining around nose, eyes. And it is very interesting as can be seen the black origin on the paws. White persians (true white persians) have pink paws. Chinchillas have black(ish) paws.


Chinchillas have the silver gene - expressed at it's extreme with only 'tipping' happening. However they don't have to be just black, they can be any colour.


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## we love bsh's

spid said:


> Chinchillas have the silver gene - expressed at it's extreme with only 'tipping' happening. However they don't have to be just black, they can be any colour.


Spid your knowledge expands beyond your own breed and colour/pattern :thumbup1:


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## spid

we love bsh's said:


> Spid your knowledge expands beyond your own breed and colour/pattern :thumbup1:


We get tipped or chinchillas in Selkirks too.


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## outsider

Sorry, I should have said: my chinchillas. 
We have just black tipped coat, I read about that there is lavender, etc but I know just this version.
Sometimes it is just so confusing, I do not breed for purity of the breed or for exchibitions (same on my) I just do it to have beautiful cats/pets so not an expert of the subject but found very inteserting the theory of black cats with faulty gene become white with silverish shade. If I ever have the time shall go after further infos.
Happy to find this forum, so interesting, thanks.


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## we love bsh's

spid said:


> We get tipped or chinchillas in Selkirks too.


Do you,

is chinchilla just the colour ? and what breeds have chin in then?


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## carly87

Oh dear, oh dear. Remember, folks, this is a genetics sticky, as I can see that sparks are going to start flying soon. Outsider, you need to have a long and very hard think about what you're doing and your reasons for breeding.


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## outsider

No, or not yet. We did not planned this breeding stuff, we are just animal lover, you know the type who go to Tenerife and go back twice to the Loro park to see animals.
I lost my favorite cat many years ago. She was neutered (to protect escaping) and was over run in front of our house in a quiet small street. When I felt better my husband bought a cat and I bought another and they were different sexes. We had a big house, we decided not to neuter them as both were persians and you can always find a home to persians. Then we can't stop collecting, my wish was always a chinchilla. Then we moved here, did the whole process with vaccination, blood test, quarantine (was required that time) but I was not really interested in petshows nor genetics besides my cats were registered in our country not here. So they have full, official pedigrees but to be the part of this showstuff I am afraid I should do the whole process like re-registering them, etc. It is costly and I am not so eager yet, sorry about it. It is just nowadays that I started interesting in their genetic because I was a bit confused in connection with stull like 'carries gold' and found very interesting our kittens' appereance and changing colours like when you have two chinchilla (one of them rather a silvershaded) and got a litter with chinchillas, silvershadeds and a golden one.
But I am more interested in behaviours, like how much genetic and how much socialization. Eg. mother blinks with one of her eye when she is nervous or annoyed. Kitten do the same. Just her kitten. I mean others (adults, sometimes kittens of another mother) can see this but they do not copy. Just her kittens.


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## outsider

Joy, you can watch cute fluffy animals, cats are especially beautiful, their moving, shape of their body, I am in love with long fur as they are so cute ball-shaped when they are kittens, can watch how they develop, they give a lot of fun even if they are michievous. I like when they have a huge personalty because it is really funny and all of them are just so differenet. Admire how quick they are, how skillful how clever, how manipulative, how good to use us as their servant. And - honestly - I found it more satisfying than reach a kind of 'career success' working for a multi and much less stressful. I am - sorry, sorry, sorry - simply proud of our kittens, to their beauty, health. That's all nowadays. My poor husband do the real work part. 

But there is another part. Living in Hungary I recognised that there were less and less beautiful cat, and pedigree cats had more and more problem including health problems or problems with their instinct. I really admire what breaders do to reach a specific colour, etc but on the other hand nowadays more and more people neuter their cats. Even if my cats not perfect (to standards) they are beautiful and healthy, their genes shoud survive if you know what I mean. If we neuter almost all of the cats finally we completely will loose healthy, beautiful pedigree cats because after a point there won't be enough left to avoid inbreeding and you can start it from the beginning. 

Now I have a kind of goal, I have a cat (with a lot of Brettachtal genes) she is my favorite, my love and in my eye she is the most beautiful chinchilla (especially the colour-harmony like her eyes, nose). When you look at her colour-harmony is perfect somehow. I'd like to 'produce' more cats with that colouring of hers but do not know how. On the other hand she's instict are perfect while some of my other cats have trouble with giving birth (do not take care of shell, or rope, I do) my favorite do not requires help she is perfect. Also she was the first when we started feed raw who instinctly liked it and accepted it. She is the most affectionate (however a bit unpredictable, has her moods but she is spoiled). I kept a girl from her, she carries some things, but colouring are not so good, she is cute and beautiful in her way but her temper is different, she is less clever however her insticts are perfect too and she is just incredible she has 5-7 kittens without any problem (however I am always on half way to her with some fresh meat and bones, so strongly help her.)

Do not kill me, please if it is hurting or so unprofessional, etc. Thanks.


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## carly87

It is very unprofessional for want of a better word, but that is not for this thread as this is a genetics sticky, and I would ask you to keep it on topic. To bring things back, if you know nothing about genetics, then you are potentially breeding Persians who have PKD and HCM to name but two genetically linked conditions. You have a responsibility to breed for health as you have identified, so I would urge you to do so, not just breed pretty cats. Anyway, I may start another thread for this later, but again, would urge everyone else not to say what I know we all want to right about now. This is a genetics sticky.


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## outsider

_'if you know nothing about genetics, then you are potentially breeding Persians who have PKD '_
I am sorry, I found your opinion a bit harsh, forgive me. 
PKD is a genetic illness and sadly even professionals do not know enough as internet is full with contradictory infos published by professionals. Inc. chance to inherit (if one of the parents carries, if two.. or always as it is a dominant gene), when it will possibly turn out (without test), what are the chances of sick cats, will it be always fatal, ect.ect. All of the info about these issues are contradictory - it seems even professionals does not know for sure.
On the other hand in the contry I came from was not so common and easy to ask for tests especially for such a difficult one. As I always felt responsible for may cats and kittens I chose feedback. My cats age are: 10, 7.5, 6.5, 5. Most of them are from famous breeders (who can't afford a scandal like this). I've been keeeping touch several owners in these last almost 10 years (I asked them to do this and have plenty who were willing to write to me time to time about kitten). I never ask for stud service (we are closed, also never offer it). In my opinion I surely would heard about it by now if it would be a real danger which infects us. Thanks for your understanding my point of view in advance and please do not say the word: unprofessional so easely in a world when half of the famous breeders feed their very carnivores cats with full-with-rice staffs. I maybe very newbee in conneciton with genetic related stuff like appereance, but I am not as newbee in connection with deseases, I try to be updated. I even spent plenty of hours of study, changed emails in connection with vaccina related immun deseases.

And I am sorry, hope you forgive me all, I stirctly promise I try just read this topic instead of comment in future as I am just started to interested in genetic / appereance.


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## carly87

It's absolutely fine, you don't need to apologise for having an opinion!

In terms of PKD, I am current with research on this, having attended seminars given by the lady who is at the forefront of cat genetic research.

PKD is a dominant gene. We know that the gentic variant that we have found sometimes shows symptoms and sometimes not. It is felt that the gene is impacted by other genes not yet discovered.

However, and here's where we come to the moral part of breeding, some of those PKD positive cats do show symptoms, and very severe ones. We know that the vast majority of cats who don't have the identified PKD gene don't go on to develop it, so we know that the gene identified is heavily involved. As we don't know which genes are the suppressors, that means that, if we a PKD carrier to another cat, because we don't know whether the other has the good gene that's needed to make sure the cat remains healthy, we are potentially going to produce a cat who suffers with PKD. So, if we don't know how to avoid the risk of PKD other than to breed out the faulty gene that we have identified, then that is all we can do.

Most of your cats are not very old I'm afraid, so all you can assume is that they don't have PKD symptoms yet, not that they possess the suppressor genes. Because of this, it just isn't worth the risk.

I am not having a go at the way you keep your cats. By all accounts, if you're feeding them raw etc, then you're doing really well by them. It's just that, given the facts that we know, it really isn't a good idea to avoid testing for things which we know can produce health problems in kittens.


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## outsider

carly87 said:


> It's absolutely fine, you don't need to apologise for having an opinion!
> 
> In terms of PKD, I am current with research on this, having attended seminars given by the lady who is at the forefront of cat genetic research.
> 
> .


Thank you. Is it possible to see something written document of these seminars to have more info? I prefer written as obviously my English is not so strong and take me for a while to undestand and translate everything correctly.

I shall go for this test sooner or later even if I did not received any news for these years that it can affect us at all, but at this point I can't afford. I've just asked after and was told that it is 85 / cat which is highly expensive comparing the price to a test for leukemia or cats' aids which is around 20-30.

A genetic-desease related question if I may:
A little while ago I was after researching vaccina-issues like autoimmun deseases caused by vaccinas. At a point I changed emails with a lady who - I believe - is an expert of the issue. She wrote to me that somehow (my poor english), this autoimmun stuff can be inherited, so even if one do not vaccinate cats, they could inherit their parents' autoimmun deseases caused by vaccinas. Was this issue discussed here somewhere please? So eager to know that I am the only one who intested in or others, too and is there any update, news? Thank you in advance.


----------



## Cats cats cats

OrientalSlave said:


> Black with a slightly silvery grey undercoat sounds like a black cat with an unsound coat. A sound black cat would have fur that is black to the roots, but many non-pedigrees (and many pedigrees!) are greyish at the roots. This is quite different to being a smoke cat - they have bone-white fur at the roots.
> 
> So glad you will be neutering her.


Really ? I thought black smoke was grey at the roots  my smokey pants looked rather smokey when I got him ( hence the name  ) but now, that has all but disappeared and he looks just black...... Well, rusty black :lol:

Maybe he isn't a black smoke after after all. I love him either way though :001_wub:


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## spid

Should be white at the roots for silver (smoke on a non tabby)


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## carly87

The test is much cheaper than that if you test through Langford. With the breed club discount, you get something like 10 or 20% off the list price which brings it to about £26 or so per test. I do understand that you don't have a lot of money, but it would be worth doing this maybe one at a time, so do it on the next cat pair that you are planning to breed. That way, you cover everything with the cats who will be producing kittens.

Unfortunately, there is no written record of the seminar that is easily available. Lesley Lyons doesn't provide copies of her presentations in electronic format, but you could always contact her direct. She is a very nice lady, and doesn't mind discussing things with people.

Alternatively, I am very happy to explain things in a different way if you need it. My auntie is Hungarian too, so if you really struggle, I could ask her to translate for you. Her mum breeds dogs and so she knows a lot of the English terminology for genes etc anyway, as we have had lots of discussions when I see her.


----------



## Cats cats cats

spid said:


> Should be white at the roots for silver (smoke on a non tabby)


Ahh then Smokey pants is not a smoke then


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## spotty cats

Cats cats cats said:


> Ahh then Smokey pants is not a smoke then


Could be a low grade smoke


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## OrientalSlave

carly87 said:


> The test is much cheaper than that if you test through Langford. With the breed club discount, you get something like 10 or 20% off the list price which brings it to about £26 or so per test. I do understand that you don't have a lot of money, but it would be worth doing this maybe one at a time, so do it on the next cat pair that you are planning to breed. That way, you cover everything with the cats who will be producing kittens.
> 
> <snip>


I think Hungary is in the EU so testing with the Langford is simple & cheap. You can take the swab yourself from inside the cat's cheeck.

Submission from outside the UK | Langford Veterinary Services
Feline Genetic Test Prices | Langford Veterinary Services


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## carly87

She said she was already in the UK though.


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## OrientalSlave

Sorry missed that bit. That makes it even easier - she can get swabs sent for free, and a Freepost label to send them back. Unless there is a requirement to have the vet take the swabs and put a microchip number on the form in order to register the kittens (depends on breed and registry) it's easy and cheap to test one's own cats.


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## Cats cats cats

spotty cats said:


> Could be a low grade smoke


I'm certain the breeder said she'd re-registered her stud (his colour) due to him producing smokey kittens (he's blue) but Smokey Pants certainly doesn't look smoke anymore.

Could his coat change as he gets older ? He's only 11 months old ?


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## OrientalSlave

I don't know how long a smoke coat can take to develop. I did have a brown smoke Asian once (black cat with Burmese colour restriction and smoke) and her undercoat was always white, even in the short fur on her toes. There was never any doubt she was a smoke.

However if a cat is NOT a smoke, in theory he can't produce smoke kittens. Smoke is produced by the silver gene in a non-agouti cat, and it's a dominant gene.


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## outsider

Many thanks for that info. 5 years ago an expensive test was required for every cats of ours to enter here, made in Germany, but its purpose was different.


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## OrientalSlave

Rabies test?


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## NorthernDarkness

outsider said:


> _'if you know nothing about genetics, then you are potentially breeding Persians who have PKD '_
> I am sorry, I found your opinion a bit harsh, forgive me.
> PKD is a genetic illness and sadly even professionals do not know enough as internet is full with contradictory infos published by professionals. Inc. chance to inherit (if one of the parents carries, if two.. or always as it is a dominant gene), when it will possibly turn out (without test), what are the chances of sick cats, will it be always fatal, ect.ect. All of the info about these issues are contradictory - it seems even professionals does not know for sure.


You mention you're originally from Hungary, and that your cats are registered over there. May I ask which registry? I know Fifé is quite popular in Hungary, as many Finns like to show their cats over there when they need the certificates from abroad. For example in Fifé you cannot register Persians if they haven't been DNA-tested for PKD (and if you don't register, the litter is simply moggies, not Persians).

PKD is dominant. A cat can either get very ill, or carry it without showing any symptoms, but passes it on when bred. This is why in 'my breed' (Brits) they have started testing for it too, because many BSH lines have Persians in them as they were outcrossed few decades ago.


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## OrientalSlave

carly87 said:


> <snip>
> 
> PKD is a dominant gene. We know that the gentic variant that we have found sometimes shows symptoms and sometimes not. It is felt that the gene is impacted by other genes not yet discovered.
> 
> <snip>


PKD is well-understood because it occurs not only in cats but in humans and I suspect in many other mamalian species. It might be one reason why Persians often had small litters - if a kitten inherits it from both parents it fails to survive.

Polycystic kidney disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Polycystic kidney disease - Genetics Home Reference
Welcome to the Polycystic Kidney Disease (PKD) Charity UK


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## outsider

'You mention you're originally from Hungary, and that your cats are registered over there. May I ask which registry? I know Fifé is quite popular in Hungary...'

You may. Nowadays maybe FIFE is popular (especially if newbee breeders hope to sell their kittens for a fortune to abroad)  usuall way of theirs to run for some medals and ask 10x of the money they can ask at home while keeping cats on R.C - but it was the breeder's choice that what official orgianisation was preferred by them and that time I knew about 3 and I was not an expert when I bought mine as we did not planned this breeding stuff at that time. Organisations like Cat Club no1. or M.O.E. So even could be more than 3. Hope it helps.
They are not international, but official, valid organisations in my country.

Besides - and please do not be offended - no one of you! - as when I am writing this it is not about you who are clearly well educated here, invest money enough for good food, ect - but generally speaking while we are not registered here, breeders are not interested in our kittens. It means that my kittens - in my opinion - can have better chanche that they won't be buy for breeding but buy to be a loved company of the family. I never wish to see any of my girls as they are kept on some full-of-rice cheap diet (whitout any real meat addition at least), without love and proper care, but urged to have another litter and another litter. Also, I never wish to see any of my males in a garden-cage.
And I am very sadly writing this I was just so suprised because of the ignorance eg. in connection with the vaccination issue - which (that lobby in the backgound) a very dangerous one in my opinion (even PKD problem does not seem to me such a serious one like that one as affects less animals), so I am maybe bold but I do not interested in that who is GCCF or any other 'good named' breeder, I think the most imporant think that one's uses for cats to make good money while keep them poorly or loves cats and keep them well. I feel sorry for the cats and kittens (all over the net I can see poorly looking mothers with plenty of gums in the corner of their eyes, sad / ill-looking kittens) and a big advert like 'R. C. vouchers and insurance...' Even what is the point of to be insured if you do not have health issues? I am sorry for my hars opinion, but they are not breeders in my eyes (no matter they are registered with GCCF or not), they just use animals.
Another thing which I myself found very cruel - when kittens are neutred in kitten age and not when they are reach the age when their hormon system is properly developed. It is cruel to me and it seems to me that it is a kind of way - not to prevent cats to suffer because of a bad breeder - but protect the 'business' of theirs while who knows how many cats become victims of this. Of course I understand that when people have cats like pets it would be very difficult to live with a cat who is not neutered and eager to find a mate and show it to the owner very harshly.

Of course I know that there are contracts (where is any...) which purpose is to protect the cat but how anyone can check after it? (I am sorry, even I am thinking now to insist of somekind of contract at this point to prevent reseller action - however I can't see how I can check that the owner will keep this contract).

Becasue of these reasons - and another which might just affect us but not others - I am not so eager after registration (more preciesely: re-registration) of my cats. If they are just pets, pedigrees are just interesting papers with funny names in them stating that cat is not a moggie or moggie-mixed one but full persian, even funny to look after ancestors via net but that is all and that is enough - in my opinion - to everyone who wish just a beautiful and healthy cat as pet.

I love animals and tried to protect them in my whole life (maybe I am not so well educated all the times and on every issues but at least tried my best) but I am not God if you know what I mean to decide about a cat life like mutilate them or not. I leave this to others with less moral problems than I have in connection with this. I admit and agree the necessity if some serious illness make it a necessity (like PKD, you were perfectly right in this quiestion) but on the other hand I respect them, respect their little life and wishes, I can't feel that being a human put me higher and above them and if I imagine the situation in reverse: please no other living thing can decide about that I can keep my ability to give new life or not. This is how we see this and ask for understanding. Not to mention that to look a cat community from a close distance, it can be seen that this is the way how their lives are full. They are much more happier in this natural way than my cats (at the very beginning) were living a neutered life.

Sorry, I wrote so much but wished to speak my mind, forgive me if I am wrong here or there but this is how I see this question. I feel just so sorry for them, it is such a sensitive balance that how can you have them close to you but without harming them.

So there are many moral quiestion for me in connection with this and a living problem, too I am afraid. If I want a new kitten I do not know where to go for it, where can I find a heatlhy kitten (not just PKD free but a kitten with good fundation) who is beautiful enough and not inbreeded (when I saw a GCCF breeder' cats pedigee here I was just shocked, so much inbreeding) for affordable price (as I think it is should not been just wealthy people right to have eg beautiful persian) if we neuter almost every heatlhy cats, at the end we won't have cats enough to carry the lines - maybe PKD can became such a huge problem because of this (or not, I am just guessing).

Have a nice day everyone.


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## spid

Okay - you spoke your mind now I will have to speak mine. 

I'm afraid that there are many, many back yard breeders in this country that will buy pedigree cats and use them for breeding - just because your's don't have 'papers' because they aren't registered won't stop them. In fact it will probably encourage them. And then your girls are going to end up being those poor breeding machine that you talk about. 

The GCCF and TICA and FiFE (which if your girls are registered with is great , as they are recognised here) are there as a way of making sure that the cat you sell is exactly what you say it is. Without registration papers you are selling an expensive moggy, as you have no proof. This is the definition of a back yard breeder and unfortunately you are becoming one of those. To poo poo the registries is madness. They have ethical guidelines that you should follow. 

Early neutering is done and has been done as standard practise in the US, Australia and New Zealand for over 25 years. It has been shown to have NO detrimental effect on a cat AT ALL. In fact male neuters end up 2% bigger than late neutered boys. To call it cruel is wrong. YOu can decide not todo your cats but cruel is too judgemental a word. If you neutered kittens once they reached puberty you would have to wait until they were over a year old in many cases and as the general consensus is to neuter at 6 months anyway, that is early neutering too. If you waited until they had raging hormones in their system a) you would end up with an awful lot more unwanted pregnancies and b) some serious behaviour issues in a lot of cats. There is a lot of research showing that early neutering is safe and that the kittens actually bounce back from surgery much quicker and complications are less. 

I am actually shocked that you think we don't have the right to neuter animals - it seems you are saying cats should have litters because it makes them happy - that they are entitled to do so - that we are playing God with them. Just go take a look at the rescue centres and see how full to the brim they are with unwanted cats - many because the owners decided little Tiddles would NEED a litter first to make her whole and contented. That's just placing human emotions onto an animal that doesn't have those emotions. Again that's not what good breeding is about. 

Now - I don't really understand what you mean about vaccinations - or which background lobby you are talking about. However, PKD is a serious, horrid and deadly disease and anyone who breeds without knowing the PKD status of their cats is failing the kittens they produce. This is an important test to be done and worth every penny. No Persian breeder with any sense of ethics and morals would breed from non tested cats.

Raw food - feeding raw food (which I do) is actually cheaper than feeding wet. Dry is cheaper but dry is rubbish. So much as I applaud you for feeding raw I don't accept that it drains all your money to such an extent that yo make out. If you fed them wet it would cost you more. 

Registration - pet cats deserve to be registered just as much as show or breed cats. Owners deserve to have proof that what they bought is what it is portended to be. Just because it is going for a pet doesn't make it any less deserving. Providing pet cats without a registration certificate is back yard breeding. Pure and simple. And no, no proper breeder, will look at your kittens and want one as they a) aren't PKD tested and b) registered. 

Then you come to the point of breeding - which at it's most altruistic is all about bettering the breed. To breed the best you can, to further the breed itself. How are you doing that? Your cats all go for pets. Where is the forward thinking, the helping the breed? YOu are breeding purely to make pets. That's not what good breeding is about. 

As for the bad ads on Pets4homes - there will always be those who don't do it properly. In every aspect of life. But, in the main, those who are registered, follow the guidelines and produce fantastic healthy pets/ show/ and breed cats.

As for insurance - hasn't any one of your pets every had an accident? My Birman broke her foot as a kitten jumping onto a table and missing! Insurance covered it. Also when it was found out that she had HCM (which her breeder knew her lines had and did nothing about - a bad breeder) it covered all the investigations (£2500 worth). SO insurance if for peace of mind - it doesn't say that that cat WILL have issues or is unhealthy - so why not give it out? 

And for your final comment - I can't see any good breeder in this country letting you have a kitten - you aren't registered and here that means a lot! You will have to find one from a back yard breeder like yourself. Sorry.


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## we love bsh's

Spid, so perfectly said and im sure you have wrote what we were all thinking.


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## Busy bee

This is great as I find genetics really difficult! Can anybody explain a bit about the ticked gene? I have seen ticked tabbies and wondered if the ticked gene must work with tabby gene somehow but have been googling it and think I'm wrong. Sorry if I'm just not getting it!


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## we love bsh's

Busy bee said:


> This is great as I find genetics really difficult! Can anybody explain a bit about the ticked gene? I have seen ticked tabbies and wondered if the ticked gene must work with tabby gene somehow but have been googling it and think I'm wrong. Sorry if I'm just not getting it!


ok someone will be able to explain this far better than be but I believe ticked is where the colour in the hair shaft is broken up,its still a form of tabby I believe.


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## spid

Yes ticked is a form of tabby - Genes and Alleles Summary explains it better than I - I don't have it in my breed so don't know it off by heart.


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## Busy bee

Thanks We love BSHs & Spid, gonna have a look at the link now. Can't believe how long it's taking me to get my head round genetics!


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## vabank

spid said:


> Yes ticked is a form of tabby


Yep! Ticked tabby is kind of tabby which is not specified but cats ticked tabby look like clear ticked but with white chin 
Residual ghost striping or "barring" can often be seen on the lower legs, face and belly and sometimes at the tail tip.
At the lighter parts of a tabby's coat, you will see that the individual hairs are striped with alternating light and dark bands - agouti hairs.


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## we love bsh's

vabank said:


> Yep! Ticked tabby is kind of tabby which is not specified but cats ticked tabby look like clear ticked but with white chin
> Residual ghost striping or "barring" can often be seen on the lower legs, face and belly and sometimes at the tail tip.
> At the lighter parts of a tabby's coat, you will see that the individual hairs are striped with alternating light and dark bands - agouti hairs.


hi vabank,nice to see another brit breeder here will enjoy your posts especially as you seem to know your stuff  big welcome .


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## EdSkylover

Hi, I've read everything there and I really appreciate what you've written 

I'm not sure I completely understand though. I have a black spotted classic tabby girl, and was wondering what colour boy to breed her with to get the best colours. I was thinking of going for a Silver Tabby,

does that mean because Tabby & Black are dominant genes, that the kittens are all going to be 100% tabby, but colours could be Solid Black, Silver tabby or black spotted tabby? 

Thanks in advance


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## OrientalSlave

EdSkylover said:


> Hi, I've read everything there and I really appreciate what you've written
> 
> I'm not sure I completely understand though. I have a black spotted classic tabby girl, and was wondering what colour boy to breed her with to get the best colours. I was thinking of going for a Silver Tabby,
> 
> does that mean because Tabby & Black are dominant genes, that the kittens are all going to be 100% tabby, but colours could be Solid Black, Silver tabby or black spotted tabby?
> 
> Thanks in advance


She is either spotted or classic tabby - not both. Spotted has spots, classic has whorls and splodges. If you are in any doubt her papers will tell you, and they will also tell you if she is on the active register - if you can register her kittens.

However I strongly suspect she either isn't registered active or came from a BYB and isn't registered at all. In either case don't breed her, get her spayed ASAP. Having a pedigree doesn't mean she is registered. In the case of the GCCF you have either a pink slip, or an A5 card. This thread has photos / scans of genuine papers, just in case you are in any doubt.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/319625-genuine-papers.html


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## EdSkylover

she is a black spotted tabby and she is on the active register. she is an import so she's not registered with the GCCF yet. so I won't be spaying her.


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## NorthernDarkness

EdSkylover said:


> I have a black spotted classic tabby girl, and was wondering what colour boy to breed her with to get the best colours. I was thinking of going for a Silver Tabby,
> 
> does that mean because Tabby & Black are dominant genes, that the kittens are all going to be 100% tabby, but colours could be Solid Black, Silver tabby or black spotted tabby?
> 
> Thanks in advance


It's not that simple. Does your female carry dilution or other things? Depending of the breed there could be for example chocolate, cinnamon, colourpoint etc.
This of course aplies to the stud too. What does he carry?
Example: Let's say your girl is black/brown spotted tabby carrying dilution and you mate her with a black silver classic tabby boy who is also carrying dilution. Your colours would be black/brown and possibly blue (with or without silver). Then we would need to know if your girl carries classic tabby pattern. If not, you'll get spotted tabbies. And then we'd need to know if they carry non-agouti. If they do, you might get solid colours and smoke..


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## OrientalSlave

This explains what wasn't explained here, that the cat is an NFO imported from Sweden:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/339778-microchips-change-ownership.html

I found it after my reply here. The cat's pedigree will answer a lot of the questions, though I don't think chocolate, lilac, cinnamon and fawn are allowable in that breed.

The GCCF has a web page about importing:
the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy

And I think this page covers the answer to the microchip question:



> All imports to the GCCF register must be microchipped and the number shown on the import's paperwork. (Rule introduced 26 June 2013)


It doesn't mention being in the owners name. The best way to resolve a query like this is to email the GCCF so you have their reply as an email you can print, quote etc.

Finally if it's not clear from the pedigree if she is carrying dilute and/or non-agouti, you can gene test her at the Langford quite cheaply. I don't know what tests she's had before you brought her, but they have a health test for NFCs (GSD IV) which I'd certainly have done if she was mine, along with the tests for dilution & agouti. So long as the stud owner knows what his cat carries you can predict the colours in the offspring.

List of Feline Genetic Tests | Langford Veterinary Services


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## EdSkylover

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated  I didn't realise you had to do tests to find out what the cat is carrying, I thought you just knew depending on the sex and colour of the cat, so I obviously have a lot more reading to do as I can't have understood it the best of my ability! 

Her documents say she is a black spotted tabby. Do breeders normally go for Stud cats depending on what colour the kittens are going to come out as? I quite want her to have brown/black or silver tabbies, I'm guessing that's possible from mating her with a Silver Tabby, I wouldn't mind Blues either.

I will have to do some the test and see what I can find out! I know she's been GSV-IV tested so that's good!


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## we love bsh's

EdSkylover said:


> Thanks for the replies, much appreciated  I didn't realise you had to do tests to find out what the cat is carrying, I thought you just knew depending on the sex and colour of the cat, so I obviously have a lot more reading to do as I can't have understood it the best of my ability!
> 
> Her documents say she is a black spotted tabby. Do breeders normally go for Stud cats depending on what colour the kittens are going to come out as? I quite want her to have brown/black or silver tabbies, I'm guessing that's possible from mating her with a Silver Tabby, I wouldn't mind Blues either.
> 
> I will have to do some the test and see what I can find out! I know she's been GSV-IV tested so that's good!


for tests http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/


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## we love bsh's

sorry OS i see youv already given the link


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## Jonescat

As well as GSD-IV, some NFC breeders are testing as follows: 

Tested via ultrasound for CIN when the cat is an adult
Tested for HCM when the cat is at least one year old and then repeated annually until the cat reaches five-six years of age. 
Tested for PKD at no earlier than 10 months of age. 
PK Deficiency test (genetic test)

There is also an NFC HCM project you might want to be part of. I am not personally aware of NFCs with PKD or PK deficiency but HCM is something I would always quiz breeders about now.


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## gskinner123

Jonescat said:


> Tested via ultrasound for CIN when the cat is an adult
> Tested for HCM when the cat is at least one year old and then repeated annually until the cat reaches five-six years of age.
> Tested for PKD at no earlier than 10 months of age.
> PK Deficiency test (genetic test)


Is (or rather 'should') the HCM screening carried out on ex breeding cats up to the age of 5/6?


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## Jonescat

I think it depends which group you are in exactly what you do. Certainly a number of people are trying to test for and understand HCM.

The study (here ::Norwegian Forest Cat HCM Research::) is interested in all cats to try to and understand HCM and asks for 
 Blood samples from old cats over age 7 with normal recent echos* and not related to cats diagnosed as having HCM/RCM or deceased as a result of HCM/RCM. 
(Relatives include: Parents, offspring or siblings) *As long as the scan was carried out when the cat was over 7 years of age it doesnt matter how recent.

 Blood samples from severely affected cats with HCM/RCM

Some breeders are separately testing and holding results, bloodlines etc to reduce risk while the researchers do their thing.


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## OrientalSlave

EdSkylover said:


> Thanks for the replies, much appreciated  I didn't realise you had to do tests to find out what the cat is carrying, I thought you just knew depending on the sex and colour of the cat, so I obviously have a lot more reading to do as I can't have understood it the best of my ability!
> <snip>


You don't HAVE to test for dilute & agouti, but it can help. I knew Lola was 50/50 for carrying cinnamon, tested her, found she was, took her to a cinnamon stud and got a lovely fawn girl who I kept.


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## NorthernDarkness

OrientalSlave said:


> the cat is an NFO imported from Sweden
> ---
> The cat's pedigree will answer a lot of the questions, though I don't think chocolate, lilac, cinnamon and fawn are allowable in that breed.
> ----
> I don't know what tests she's had before you brought her, but they have a health test for NFCs (GSD IV) which I'd certainly have done if she was mine, along with the tests for dilution & agouti. So long as the stud owner knows what his cat carries you can predict the colours in the offspring.


Sweden is strongly a Fifé-country (SVERAK is their cat club), and in Fifé the GSD IV test for NFO is mandatory. You can't get kittens registered if the parents haven't been tested. (Don't know where the cat in question is originally registered, but thought I should mention this to make a point about the importance of testing for GSD IV).

Indeed NFOs don't have chocolate or cinnamon, but they do have amber. I haven't got a clue how that works!


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## MerlinsMum

NorthernDarkness said:


> Indeed NFOs don't have chocolate or cinnamon, but they do have amber. I haven't got a clue how that works!


Amber is a Recessive, non-sex linked Red gene, if my memory serves me correct.


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## we love bsh's

MerlinsMum said:


> Amber is a Recessive, non-sex linked Red gene, if my memory serves me correct.


interesting.


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## MerlinsMum

AMBER AND RUSSET - LATE COLOUR CHANGE GENES


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## EdSkylover

NorthernDarkness said:


> Sweden is strongly a Fifé-country (SVERAK is their cat club), and in Fifé the GSD IV test for NFO is mandatory. You can't get kittens registered if the parents haven't been tested. (Don't know where the cat in question is originally registered, but thought I should mention this to make a point about the importance of testing for GSD IV).
> 
> Indeed NFOs don't have chocolate or cinnamon, but they do have amber. I haven't got a clue how that works!


Thanks for this. She is registered with SVERAK but today I just got the documents through from GCCF to say her registration has gone through, which is very exciting. I now have a year to learn everything about breeding before she has some babies!


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## OrientalSlave

Jonescat said:


> <snip>
> Tested for PKD at no earlier than 10 months of age.
> <snip>


Since PKD testing is now a gene test why wait until 10 months? When it was ultrasound scanning then yes, one had to wait.


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## Jonescat

I don't know. One site I got this information from says "We are not accepting DNA/genetic test results at this time; there is currently no approved DNA test for PKD in Norwegian Forest Cats. Only ultrasound results are posted on this site." Maybe it is like HCM - different genes in different breeds?


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## HeartofClass

Where I live, they say reliable DNA PKD testing is only available for Persians. Apparently it must work differently for different breeds?


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## OrientalSlave

The breeds here in the UK where it's done are ones which have been outcrossed to Persians and so it will pick up the Persian gene, which is a dominant one. There is at least one other PKD gene - a recessive one - which the test doesn't pick up, but as far as we know that's comparatively rare.

Where do you live?


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## MrRustyRead

I understand how you get dilute tortoiseshell but i was wondering how the genetics work for blue torti and lilac torti as how would the dilution gene work on one specific colour of the torti ( Black or Red) to allow it to be different to the other and not just be dilute torti


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## carly87

But a dilute tortie and a blue tortie are exactly the same thing.

Just to be clear, you can't have a blue and red cat or a lilac and red cat. Tortie does not mean some other colour with red. A tortie is a cat who displays either two dominants or two dilute colours. So you can have dominant torties and dilute torties.

The terms can be a bit ambiguous I guess. A dominant tortie is a black and red cat, so a black tortie, and a dilute tortie can be called a dilute tortie, a blue tortie or a bluecream.

Then you add in the chocolate gene. Assuming that it's a visual chocolate and not just a carrier, a dominant (black) tortie would become a chocolate tortie, and a dilute (bluecream/blue tortie) tortie would become a lilac tortie. Here' it's not the dilution gene that's acting on only one colour. It's the effect of the chocolate gene, which only changes the visible representation of the colours on the black series, so that's black and blue which change to chocolate and lilac.

When you're considering dilute and just straightforward torties, the dilution gene acts on both colours, changing black to blue and red to cream. That's why you couldn't have a black and cream or a blue and red.

Does that make sense?


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## MrRustyRead

carly87 said:


> But a dilute tortie and a blue tortie are exactly the same thing.
> 
> Just to be clear, you can't have a blue and red cat or a lilac and red cat. Tortie does not mean some other colour with red. A tortie is a cat who displays either two dominants or two dilute colours. So you can have dominant torties and dilute torties.
> 
> The terms can be a bit ambiguous I guess. A dominant tortie is a black and red cat, so a black tortie, and a dilute tortie can be called a dilute tortie, a blue tortie or a bluecream.
> 
> Then you add in the chocolate gene. Assuming that it's a visual chocolate and not just a carrier, a dominant (black) tortie would become a chocolate tortie, and a dilute (bluecream/blue tortie) tortie would become a lilac tortie. Here' it's not the dilution gene that's acting on only one colour. It's the effect of the chocolate gene, which only changes the visible representation of the colours on the black series, so that's black and blue which change to chocolate and lilac.
> 
> When you're considering dilute and just straightforward torties, the dilution gene acts on both colours, changing black to blue and red to cream. That's why you couldn't have a black and cream or a blue and red.
> 
> Does that make sense?


i always completely forget about cats having chocolate as the recessive of black, makes much more sense now


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## MerlinsMum

MrRustyRead said:


> i always completely forget about cats having chocolate as the recessive of black, makes much more sense now


Most animals do - in cats there are three alleles on the B locus -
B - Black
b - chocolate 
b(l) - cinnamon.
You can get torties of all of these colours.

When the Black gene also has two doses of the Dilute gene [dd] then the black changes to Blue.
Chocolate combined with the Dilute gene makes Lilac.
Cinnamon + dilute makes Fawn.

All of these can also combine with the gene for Tortie, creating Black Tortie, Blue Tortie [called Blue-cream in some breeds], Chocolate Tortie, Cinnamon Tortie, Fawn Tortie.

It gets more complicated when tabby genes are also involved, creating Torbies (tabby-torties) but the basic colours are the same, except for the particular tabby gene thrown in as well (classic, mackerel, spotted, ticked etc).


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## MrRustyRead

MerlinsMum said:


> Most animals do - in cats there are three alleles on the B locus -
> B - Black
> b - chocolate
> b(l) - cinnamon.
> You can get torties of all of these colours.
> 
> When the Black gene also has two doses of the Dilute gene [dd] then the black changes to Blue.
> Chocolate combined with the Dilute gene makes Lilac.
> Cinnamon + dilute makes Fawn.
> 
> All of these can also combine with the gene for Tortie, creating Black Tortie, Blue Tortie [called Blue-cream in some breeds], Chocolate Tortie, Cinnamon Tortie, Fawn Tortie.
> 
> It gets more complicated when tabby genes are also involved, creating Torbies (tabby-torties) but the basic colours are the same, except for the particular tabby gene thrown in as well (classic, mackerel, spotted, ticked etc).


makes me realise why id never breed cats ha, far to complicated and me being me would want to do it ocd with colour genetics.


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## Time flies

How does the ticked gene help to produce clear coated self cats? I have heard that carrying the ticked gene is good for self cats without having the ghost markings but is ticked a form of tabby and if it is how can the gene be carried in a self cat. I hope this makes sense


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## NorthernDarkness

^I believe it's done because of the possible ghost patterns. From the ghost pattern you can see what tabby pattern the cat is carrying 'under' the self coat, but it is not a desired trait. A self cat with 'ghost ticking' would look very even coloured as there really wouldn't be any patterns showing through, except maybe on a red cat you could see from the forehead it's a 'ghost ticked'. And of course on a self cat it is very desired not to show ghost markings.

I've noticed this has spread onto shaded/tipped silvers/goldens as well. Living in a country where Fifé is the largest organization, and dealing with a breed (BSH) where the ticked tabby pattern isn't recognized it has been interesting to see golden/silver breeders slowly starting to have kittens that clearly are ticked carriers, even though their pedigrees (UK lines too) mystically are free of ticked tabbies. Makes me wonder.:hand: I have nothing against ticked BSHs, I love them. And I breed under TICA, so it's not my problem as in TICA mating a BSH to a goat would probably be recognized... 

*edit* I can dig up pictures as my English usually doesn't make much sense..


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## Time flies

Thanks northern darkness


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## OrientalSlave

Ticked is the most dominant tabby pattern, followed by spotted, mackerel and classic.

Tabby Pattern Genetic Breakthrough


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## Time flies

That's interesting. That must be why they recommend not mating ticked to ticked BSHs then if ticked is dominant.


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## NorthernDarkness

Few pics, behind links due to size.
Here we have BSH kittens that were registered as a self chocolate, black silver ticked tabby and a self red: click
And siblings from the same litter, a self blue, a self chocolate and the same silver ticked as in previous pic: click

In the first pic the selfs are ghost tickeds, in the second they are ghost classics. The difference is IMO very obvious. 
(And going a bit OT but that is by far the best black silver ticked BSH kitten I've ever seen, and I've been searching! It's a pity she was already reserved when I first found her).


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## OrientalSlave

Time flies said:


> That's interesting. That must be why they recommend not mating ticked to ticked BSHs then if ticked is dominant.


I have no idea why there that recommendation for bsh. Surely if you want to breed ticked then mating ticked to ticked makes sense? And if you want to breed some other tabby pattern a ticked is the last thing you would want to use? Orientals come in all tabby patterns and don't find the need to make that recommendation.


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## Time flies

Wonder why they say that for the british then and not for other breeds, that's a bit odd. It says in reg policy because of dominance of gene continual use of such matings could eliminate the classic/mackerel/spottied tabbies, but like you say, people breeding these wouldn't be using ticked cats anyway.


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## Time flies

I've had another look at the breed policy and that bit has a line through it now. 

Thanks for adding the pics northern darkness, can tell the difference really well looking at those


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## gskinner123

OrientalSlave said:


> I have no idea why there that recommendation for bsh. Surely if you want to breed ticked then mating ticked to ticked makes sense? And if you want to breed some other tabby pattern a ticked is the last thing you would want to use? Orientals come in all tabby patterns and don't find the need to make that recommendation.


I found a bit odd to. It's interesting to read that Time Flies says that the recommendation now seems to have been removed. I know that it was initially included because of fears of other tabby patterns (being recessive to ticked) dying out in the breed. The thinking (though I don't think 'they' thought too long and hard about it!) being that over time, with more frequent matings of ticked to ticked, more and more cats would become homozygous for ticked, resulting in a diminishing available gene pool of spotted and classic tabby BSH's and/or would result in "too many" self cats masking ticked to the detriment of anything else.


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## OrientalSlave

gskinner123 said:


> I found a bit odd to. It's interesting to read that Time Flies says that the recommendation now seems to have been removed. I know that it was initially included because of fears of other tabby patterns (being recessive to ticked) dying out in the breed. The thinking (though I don't think 'they' thought too long and hard about it!) being that over time, with more frequent matings of ticked to ticked, more and more cats would become homozygous for ticked, resulting in a diminishing available gene pool of spotted and classic tabby BSH's and/or would result in "too many" self cats masking ticked to the detriment of anything else.


I had a look and it still seems to be there in the policy I got from the GCCF website! (version 1.7)

http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/britishshregpol_newformat.pdf

No-one is suggesting anything similar with colours, why with the pattern? Agree they may well not have thought that long & hard about it. People wanting to breed spotties would never consider mating to a ticked, ditto classics and mackerel. The people who would are those breeding self cats, especially red self. Most of the red self BSH I've seen look like good tabby cats!


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## Time flies

This is the one I've been looking at, lots of things crossed out. 
http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/CouncilMeetings/Oct12/BritishShorthairRegpol.pdf


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## OrientalSlave

Time flies said:


> This is the one I've been looking at, lots of things crossed out.
> http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/CouncilMeetings/Oct12/BritishShorthairRegpol.pdf


That one is headed 'proposal for revision 2012', the one I gave is what they ended up with - it's headed 'Final Version v1.7' on the first page and 'major revision 2012' at the top of all other pages.


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## Time flies

It's crossed out but then says same thing underneath anyway. 
I'd been worrying myself because it says all cats should have a heating test before being placed on active reg. I'm looking at the wrong thing aren't I


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## Time flies

Cross posts there. Of course. Daft bugger I am!


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## Time flies

Excuse all my mistakes today!! Hearing test I mean not heating test. I blame tiredness!


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## OrientalSlave

Time flies said:


> It's crossed out but then says same thing underneath anyway.
> _I'd been worrying myself because it says all cats should have a heating test before being placed on active reg_. I'm looking at the wrong thing aren't I


White cats only.



> Registration Explanatory Notes:
> 1. A BAER test confirming hearing in both ears must be provided for any White cat (male or female) before the cat can registered on the Active Register and used for breeding. Cats with a hearing problem in one or both ears will be registered on the Non-Active Register. (Any kittens accidentally produced from these cats will also be registered on the Non-Active Register and should be tested prior to sale to new owners.)


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## OrientalSlave

And the bit about ticked, again from the notes:



> 7. The TICKED pattern gene in both agouti and non-agouti cats is the dominant pattern. It is strongly advised that TICKED cats should NOT be mated together as doing do could result in cats becoming homozygous for the TICKED gene, which could lead to the ultimate elimination of the Classic and Mackerel/Spotted patterns from the breed as a whole.
> 7.1.Registration documents for cats with a ticked patterned parent will be overstamped with 'ticked' in pedigree (the pattern will not always be noticeable in non-agouti, Colourpointed or Tipped cats)


One doesn't really want the pattern to be noticeable in non-agouti cats!


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## gskinner123

OrientalSlave said:


> No-one is suggesting anything similar with colours, why with the pattern?


I think their apparent 'world domination' knee jerk reaction in relation to the recommendation was ott. I DO see why the thought might have occurred though. Interbreeding of most self/tortie colours, so black, blue, blue-cream, cream for example, is obviously the major route to self/tortie breeding. There's been a bit of a clamor (a) to breed very clear coated cream selfs via ticked based cats and (b) a lot of BSH imported from Europe, many of which mask ticked.

It's also common for spotted/tabby breeders to want to "outcross" to self cats to improve type and eye colour (both lacking sometimes in BSH tabbies) and of course a small but increasing number of breeders actually breeding BSH ticked tabbies.

So it's been the above factors, in combination, that caused someone to think uh-oh, hence the recommendation. I can see their way of thinking. If you want to breed non-silver classic tabbies (without having to resort to using classic silvers in order to do so) they are extremely difficult to find and it's just as hard to find a self masking classic. Self breeders have steered away from it over the years as its presence usually causes heavy ghost markings in self cats which often don't disappear completely in adulthood. And of course it's recessive to spotted so naturally often gets 'lost' along the way.


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## NorthernDarkness

OrientalSlave said:


> One doesn't really want the pattern to be noticeable in non-agouti cats!


Or in agoutis if they're tipped! Personally I think 'ticked tippeds' are fairly easy to spot, it's much more difficult to single out the other tabby patterns from a tipped cat. (And by tipped I mean shaded, not chinchilla).


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## NorthernDarkness

It's so hot that my brains are melting and white confuses me! So help me out: The movie Aristocats.. Duchess is white (Turkish Angora) and has three kittens: a white girl, red boy and blue (or is Berlioz black?) boy. What colour would their father be?


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## MerlinsMum

NorthernDarkness said:


> It's so hot that my brains are melting and white confuses me! So help me out: The movie Aristocats.. Duchess is white (Turkish Angora) and has three kittens: a white girl, red boy and blue (or is Berlioz black?) boy. What colour would their father be?


Could be red/cream.


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## OrientalSlave

MerlinsMum said:


> Could be red/cream.


Duchess must be red/cream/tortie to have a red boy - assuming there was any attempt to make the colours possible!


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## MerlinsMum

OrientalSlave said:


> Duchess must be red/cream/tortie to have a red boy - assuming there was any attempt to make the colours possible!


She could have been, but masked by White. Cuba was a tortie underneath her white.


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## OrientalSlave

MerlinsMum said:


> She could have been, but masked by White. Cuba was a tortie underneath her white.


She must have been - all red / cream boy cats inherit the colour from their mother, on their single X chromosone. They get their Y to make them male from their father.


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## carly87

But torties can still have red boys.

And, if there is a blue/black and a red boy, then she would have had to be tortie to have one of each.

We don't know what colour daddy might have been as we don't know what colour the girl is masking under the white. We don't even know what pattern he might have been.


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## lymorelynn

NorthernDarkness said:


> It's so hot that my brains are melting and white confuses me! So help me out: The movie Aristocats.. Duchess is white (Turkish Angora) and has three kittens: a white girl, red boy and blue (or is Berlioz black?) boy. What colour would their father be?


To be honest I don't think Disney would have cared much about the genetics


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## NorthernDarkness

lymorelynn said:


> To be honest I don't think Disney would have cared much about the genetics


Lol. It annoys me way too much! :lol: Well, atleast they changed few things in Lion King 2 to avoid incest.. 
(Kovu was originally Scar's biological son, but that would have made him Kiara's cousin, so he became Scar's stepson).


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## Jellypi3

NorthernDarkness said:


> Lol. It annoys me way too much! :lol: Well, atleast they changed few things in Lion King 2 to avoid incest..
> (Kovu was originally Scar's biological son, but that would have made him Kiara's cousin, so he became Scar's stepson).


Although to be fair if you consider the Lion king as a film, in Lion prides all offspring are of the dominant male, so really Simba was Mufasa's son, but so should Nala have been...


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## NorthernDarkness

Jellypi3 said:


> Although to be fair if you consider the Lion king as a film, in Lion prides all offspring are of the dominant male, so really Simba was Mufasa's son, but so should Nala have been...


True. In the original storyline Scar was trying to make Nala his 'queen' while he was the 'king', but that was dropped too. They did make a song and sketches about it though, so it was close to ending up in the actual movie.

I have a feeling I might be overthinking children's movies.


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## Clairelbrooke

Good evening,
I know this is an old thread but wonder if someone could help me with the genetics? No matter how many times I read it I don't get it, I am looking at breeding my blue OSH next year and know I would like a mixed bag in a litter so would warn a good stud.
From what I do know my girl is dilute as she is blue, he father was a Havana (chocolate so dilute?) and mother was a seal & white bicolour oriental so by the by my girl is blue.

If I was to mate my girl to a red point Siamese (seal based carrying chocolate) what would that throw out? I do not know if my girl is a Siamese carrier but there were Siamese in the litter also so assume she is.

All theory so far but really interests me

Thanks in advance
Claire


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## OrientalSlave

Making sure I've got it right. She's a blue oriental who carries chocolate (havana father) and Siamese (seal bicolour mother).

Stud is red-point carrying chocolate.

I know of a red-point stud carrying chocolate but not dilute... 

If you are taking her to that cat, your boys will be seal-point, chocolate-point, black or Havana and your girls will be seal-tortie-point, chocolate-tortie-point, black tortie or choc tortie.

If he carries dilute then you can add blue-point, lilac-point, blue & lilac boys to the mix, and blue-tortie-point, lilac-tortie-point, blue-tortie & lilac-tortie to the mix.


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## HeartofClass

Edited out, found out the answer


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## NorthernDarkness

Long time no see! (Had issues with logging in and gave up).

Colour genetics confusing me again
Sire carries chocolate, dam carries cinnamon. They have 4 kittens, 2 of them are chocolate. What will the other two possibly carry, choco or cinnamon?


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## QOTN

Are the sire and dam black? If so, both the chocolates will carry cinnamon. Are the other two kittens black? If they are, they could be pure black or carrying chocolate or cinnamon, not possible to tell without a DNA test.


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## NorthernDarkness

Yes, sire & dam are black (possibility that both carry dilution), so are the 2 kittens.


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## QOTN

Dilution is not relevant to the colour as it is caused by a different gene but if you are going to do a DNA test for colour and wanted to know if they were carrying dilute, you could do that test at the same time.


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## OrientalSlave

NorthernDarkness said:


> Long time no see! (Had issues with logging in and gave up).
> 
> Colour genetics confusing me again
> Sire carries chocolate, dam carries cinnamon. They have 4 kittens, 2 of them are chocolate. What will the other two possibly carry, choco or cinnamon?


Sire & Dam are black (or brown or seal), the chocolate babies will carry cinnamon. The black babies might carry chocolate, or cinnamon, or be homozygous for black. You can find out for sure by DNA testing them. I guess you are thinking of one (or more!) being breeding cats, as that's the only context in which knowing makes sense.

I wanted to do a punnet square but can't lay it out to make sense - I'd have to do an image and post that.

Sire is Bb (black carrying chocolate), dam is Bb1 (black carrying cinnamon).

Combinations are:

BB = homozygous black
Bb = black carrying chocolate
Bb1 = black carrying cinnamon
bb1 = chocolate carrying cinnamon

Dilution (black to blue, chocolate to lilac, cinnamon to fawn) is inherited completely separately and as QOTH says can be DNA tested at the same time.


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## NorthernDarkness

OrientalSlave said:


> I guess you are thinking of one (or more!) being breeding cats, as that's the only context in which knowing makes sense.


You guessed right. I have a black smoke female, trying to decide what colour stud to use. The options are the basic (black) silvers, but also a young cinnamon point could possibly be available. The female is a point carrier too.. Decisions, decisions..!


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## sharonbee

We will be taking our chocolate tortie point to stud soon, not sure yet whether to take her to an Havana or a blue point, the blue point carries chocolate, the havana carries dilute. Please could anyone tell me what colours we could expect from either matings? ...could we get any reds?


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## OrientalSlave

If they both carry dilute the Havana can produce chocolate & lilac and if she does the blue can produce black, blue, chocolate & lilac. 

As she is a tortie you could get tortie girls and red or cream boys, creams only if both carry dilute.

Are the boys of equal type and temprement? Equally close?


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## OrientalSlave

Reply above is terse as I was using my tablet. With the last line I'm trying to say that colour isn't everything when you choose a stud, and above that the queen's genotype matters as well - if she carries dilute or not. 

I also didn't mention Caramel. Your girl could carry the dilute modifier gene - if a dilute (blue, lilac or fawn) kitten inherits a copy it becomes a caramel instead. The Havana stud could also carry it, without seeing their pedigrees it's hard to be sure what is possible.

I also originally missed that your girl is a Siamese. With the blue-point obviously all kittens regardless of colour will be Siamese, with the Oriental it depends on if he carries colourpoint or not. If he does on average half the kittens will be Siamese.


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## sharonbee

Thanks Sally, I hadn't thought of caramels and had hoped if she had any red or cream kittens she would have some girls as I really would have liked either a red or cream Oriental or red or cream Siamese for a future breeding queen.maybe not from this litter but a future litter with the same mating.

The Havana stud carries dilute and Siamese,The Siamese stud has a pure Siamese pedigree but obviously with our girl being Siamese all kittens from that mating will be Siamese too. 

Our girl carries dilute too. The Havana carries Siamese. 

Both studs are from different Breeders, both have a lovely friendly temperament, we have used both boys before and they are so gentle which is good as our girl is a maiden queen. 

Thanks again for your help x


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## QOTN

sharonbee said:


> Thanks Sally, I hadn't thought of caramels and had hoped if she had any red or cream kittens she would have some girls as I really would have liked either a red or cream Oriental or red or cream Siamese for a future breeding queen.maybe not from this litter but a future litter with the same mating.


A red or cream girl has to inherit a red gene from each parent so you would have to use a red or cream oriental stud to have a chance of a red or cream oriental girl.

Please bear in mind that, whereas we know about the genetics of most colours, the dilute modifier gene which may cause caramel is still only a theory. Up until now the research being conducted at the moment has failed to find a gene responsible.


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## sharonbee

Thankyou Sally, 
That's good to know for the future, we would love a red girlie. 
Our Sharona is a caramel, when she was born I asked on here what colour everyone thought she was and most said they thought she was caramel so we registered her as such. She is now expecting her first litter so looking forward to that in June.
Thanks again for your help x


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## Susan M

I've been quite interested in colour genetics for a while, but not got my head around it @carly87 your description is so helpful! As soon as complex talk comes in I'm lost, but I think I'm getting the basics from what you have written.

Would anyone be able to explain very simply a little bit about silver to me? 
Where does it come from? If you have a "pure" silver cat does it carry any other colours? My girls are from generations upon generations of black silver tabbies and spotteds. 
Just general curiosity I'd like to know really, and I'd love to be able to work out what you'd get if you mated a silver to another colour.


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> I've been quite interested in colour genetics for a while, but not got my head around it @carly87 your description is so helpful! As soon as complex talk comes in I'm lost, but I think I'm getting the basics from what you have written.
> 
> Would anyone be able to explain very simply a little bit about silver to me?
> Where does it come from? If you have a "pure" silver cat does it carry any other colours? My girls are from generations upon generations of black silver tabbies and spotteds.
> Just general curiosity I'd like to know really, and I'd love to be able to work out what you'd get if you mated a silver to another colour.


Silver is called an Inhibitor gene. It takes away the the colour but all cats including silvers have two basic colour genes. We know your spotties have at least one black gene each. (They may have two.) It is a major gene, so only one is required to produce silver, but any silver cat can have two inhibitor genes. They would then be 'pure for silver.' In that case they would only produce silver offspring even if mated to non-silver. A silver with only one silver gene could produce non-silver if mated to non-silver or another silver carrying only one inhibitor gene.

Unfortunately, there is not yet a DNA test for silver but there are tests for the basic colour genes, black, chocolate and cinnamon and also for the gene which dilutes those colours to blue, lilac and fawn. If you knew the cats' colours you could work out the possibilities from silvers with one gene mated to non-silver. (Of course knowing the possibiities is not the same as knowing what colours will actually arrive.)


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## OrientalSlave

Silver is an 'add-on'. The normal version of the gene (written 'i') doesn't have any effect - the cat isn't silver or smoke. The Silver version (written 'I') turns a tabby into a silver tabby and a self into a smoke. Rather than keep writing 'silver or smoke' I'll just use silver as an umbrella word in the rest of my reply.

Because it's an add-on the cat also has the normal colours, for your cats black. But all the other normal rules of colour inheritance are still working so you can get blue silvers, tortie silvers, chocolate silvers, and so on.

The complications arise are that firstly a silver cat can have one or two copies of the silver gene (e.g. are Ii or II), and secondly the effects are sometimes hard to see so it can seem to 'skip' a generation or three. If you have a pure silver cat (II) all offspring will be silver, if it carries the normal version of the gene (Ii) then with a non-silver cat, approximately half the offspring will be silver and half won't.

You also have other genes at work which can affect how a cat looks, for example a tipped BSH (chincilla persian) is a silver tabby that has a couple of copies of the 'wide band' gene which results in the colour all being on the tips of the hairs, though kittens are often darker and show a ghost tabby pattern.

Hopefully there will be a gene test for it some time in the future, but as far as I know it's over the horizon at present.


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## Susan M

Thank you both, very helpful! 
To make sure i've understood, there's no way of telling if the silver carries one or two silver genes, so you cannot predict whether you'll have all or some silver offspring? 
And because of the black, even silver cats that have nothing in their peds for many generations except black silver tabbies/spotted could still carry other colours?


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Thank you both, very helpful!
> To make sure i've understood, there's no way of telling if the silver carries one or two silver genes, so you cannot predict whether you'll have all or some silver offspring?
> And because of the black, even silver cats that have nothing in their peds for many generations except black silver tabbies/spotted could still carry other colours?


Yes, the only way at the moment to find out if a cat has one or two silver genes is to test mate to a non-silver cat but you would need to have many kittens without a non-silver to be sure two silver genes were present. It used to be said 10 would be sufficient but it would still not be 100% certain. Of course as soon as you had a non-silver you would know you only had one silver gene.

It is *possible *that British tabbies carry other colours or patterns but I do not know anything about the British pedigrees. I know the registration policy is fairly complicated.


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## OrientalSlave

If generations are black silvers and haven't produced anything else than black silver tabbies (which I doubt you will know for sure unless you have breed them) then they probably have two Silver genes, don't have the dilute gene (turns black into blue) or non-agouti (turns tabby into self - a silver self is a smoke). I'd be very, very surprised if chocolate was in their pedigrees, even more surprised if cinnamon was there.

Dilute can be tested for as can chocolate, cinnamon and non-agouti.

Are you planning doing some breeding?


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## OrientalSlave

QOTN said:


> <snip>
> It is *possible *that British tabbies carry other colours or patterns but I do not know anything about the British pedigrees. I know the registration policy is fairly complicated.


Spotted tabbies are AFAIK a classic or mackerel cat with a gene that breaks the pattern down into spots - sometimes you can see the underlying pattern if you look carefully. So, I guess classic and mackerel tabbies are a possibility as well.

Blue silver tabbies certainly exist, so do red silver, so cream silver and the tortie colours can and do come along.

_The Tabby and Spotted patterned British Shorthair is available in all colours, both Silver and Non-Silver, although the Black Silver Tabby and Black Silver Spotted are the most well-known and sought after. _​


----------



## QOTN

OrientalSlave said:


> Spotted tabbies are AFAIK a classic or mackerel cat with a gene that breaks the pattern down into spots - sometimes you can see the underlying pattern if you look carefully. So, I guess classic and mackerel tabbies are a possibility as well.
> 
> Blue silver tabbies certainly exist, so do red silver, so cream silver and the tortie colours can and do come along.
> 
> _The Tabby and Spotted patterned British Shorthair is available in all colours, both Silver and Non-Silver, although the Black Silver Tabby and Black Silver Spotted are the most well-known and sought after. _​


I would be amazed if any British carried cinnamon without the breeders being aware since the first mating to introduce the colour into the breed came in the early nineties and was very strictly controlled (and still is.) However that does not alter the fact that many breeders of dominant colours and patterns have had unpleasant shocks in the past when recessive genes have unexpectedly appeared. There will doubtless be similar shocks (or pleasant surprises) in the future.


----------



## OrientalSlave

QOTN said:


> I would be amazed if any British carried cinnamon without the breeders being aware since the first mating to introduce the colour into the breed came in the early nineties and was very strictly controlled (and still is.) However that does not alter the fact that many breeders of dominant colours and patterns have had unpleasant shocks in the past when recessive genes have unexpectedly appeared. There will doubtless be similar shocks (or pleasant surprises) in the future.


I would be just as amazed, but a little digging found that there have been some chocolate smokes bred which was a bit of a surprise. However I think the likelyhood is that the only surprises that might emerge for Susan M (if she is a breeder) are blue silvers, and/or classic or mackerel tabbys along with spotties.


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## Susan M

I'm with you, thank you!

No I'm not breeding, I just have a very keen interest and know a breeder very well. We're just researching really, other colours could be something she's interested in in the future, but want to learn about everything first. 

All the peds are silvers, no other colour cats at all, but some carry smoke, what effect would that have?


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> I'm with you, thank you!
> 
> No I'm not breeding, I just have a very keen interest and know a breeder very well. We're just researching really, other colours could be something she's interested in in the future, but want to learn about everything first.
> 
> All the peds are silvers, no other colour cats at all, but some carry smoke, what effect would that have?


A smoke is simply a non-tabby silver cat. A tabby cat who can produce a smoke has one tabby gene and one non-agouti gene. You only need one tabby gene to get a tabby but you need two non-agouti genes to get a smoke or self coloured cat.


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## OrientalSlave

Susan M said:


> I'm with you, thank you!
> 
> No I'm not breeding, I just have a very keen interest and know a breeder very well. We're just researching really, other colours could be something she's interested in in the future, but want to learn about everything first.
> 
> All the peds are silvers, no other colour cats at all, but some carry smoke, what effect would that have?


See how far back you can follow the pedigrees. Sites like Pawpeds are very useful, and Kintracks is free pedigree software that might help. Not sure what you mean by 'carry smoke' - carry non-agouti? (e.g. the gene for a self cat rather than a tabby)


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## Susan M

QOTN said:


> A smoke is simply a non-tabby silver cat. A tabby cat who can produce a smoke has one tabby gene and one non-agouti gene. You only need one tabby gene to get a tabby but you need two non-agouti genes to get a smoke or self coloured cat.


Oh I get it! I admire the understanding and knowledge you guys have, hope I can learn it too! 
Think I need to go back and re-read some bits now, can self cats carry agouti? And if you had a tabby Aa and a non agouti carrying self the chances of tabby babies is basically 1 in 4?



OrientalSlave said:


> See how far back you can follow the pedigrees. Sites like Pawpeds are very useful, and Kintracks is free pedigree software that might help. Not sure what you mean by 'carry smoke' - carry non-agouti? (e.g. the gene for a self cat rather than a tabby)


Sorry yes, I understand it a bit better now. Smokes are few and far between for silver breeders, and all others are tabby, so they just seem to say carry smoke. 
I know her foundation Queen came from a silver only breeder that's been going a long time, there may be the odd blue thrown in for type I'll have a look  I love looking on Pawpeds!


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Oh I get it! I admire the understanding and knowledge you guys have, hope I can learn it too!
> Think I need to go back and re-read some bits now, can self cats carry agouti? And if you had a tabby Aa and a non agouti carrying self the chances of tabby babies is basically 1 in 4?


The non-agouti (self) gene is interesting because it is a recessive gene (one must be inherited from each parent to get a self cat) but it is also a masking gene. All cats have tabby patterns even the selfs but the non-agouti genes mask the pattern. It is the agouti gene itself which produces the tabby cat.

So a non-agouti cat is aa. Mated to a tabby Aa the chance of tabby is 50% because only one agouti gene is required to get a tabby. At the point the gene is passed on there ia a 50% chance it will be the Agouti 'A' and 50% chance it will be Non-agouti 'a.' Of course the inheritance is random. No definite quota is ever guaranteed. You could get all tabbies or all selfs or any mixture of the two.


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## OrientalSlave

Agouti is dominant so it can't be carried. Two self (non agouti) cats can never produce a tabby.

And since non agouti and self are two different words for the same thing a non agouti doesn't carry self, it is self.


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## Susan M

Excellent thank you both you've been so helpful, I think I'm beginning to get the hang of this now I'm remembering what words mean etc. 

I've been making notes, something thing that's confusing me a little, cats each have 2 colour genes, one from each parent yes? But say in the instance of a black silver tabby, they can have possibly have 2 silver and 2 black genes, which makes 4? (Ignoring if they're carrying other colours for a minute). So each parent can pass one more than one gene, XX in girls and XY in boys doesn't literally mean just 2 genes? 

And I've been reading my book which says red is carried on the X chromosome and is sex linked from the female. So what if you have a non red female and a red male, can he still pass the red on? Through his X chromosome?


----------



## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Excellent thank you both you've been so helpful, I think I'm beginning to get the hang of this now I'm remembering what words mean etc.
> 
> I've been making notes, something thing that's confusing me a little, cats each have 2 colour genes, one from each parent yes? But say in the instance of a black silver tabby, they can have possibly have 2 silver and 2 black genes, which makes 4? (Ignoring if they're carrying other colours for a minute). So each parent can pass one more than one gene, XX in girls and XY in boys doesn't literally mean just 2 genes?
> 
> And I've been reading my book which says red is carried on the X chromosome and is sex linked from the female. So what if you have a non red female and a red male, can he still pass the red on? Through his X chromosome?


You are right that each cat has two basic colour genes. The basic colours are black, chocolate and cinnamon. These colours are at the same locus and all cats will inherit one basic colour gene from each parent. All the additional 'colours' are add ons. Silver is an inhibitor gene which takes away some of the basic colour. The dilute genes modify the way the hair reflects the light and so change the basic colour in a different way. These genes are extra to the basic colour genes. (Best not to talk about XX and XY unless you are talking about the sex chromosomes.) Think of the add ons not as colours but as extra genes like the agouti and non-agouti genes and the tabby patterns.

I am glad you are feeling confident enough to tackle the red series since that is completely different! Yes the red gene is carried on the female chromosome. A male has only one X so if he has a red gene, he is red. A female has two X chromosomes. If she has only one red gene she is a tortie. If she has two red genes she is red.

Because the red male has only one X chromosome he inevitably passes it to every one of his female offspring. If their mother is non red they will be tortie. A red male can never produce a female without his red gene. (Forget about tortie males here since they are an anomaly and not fully understood.)

I hope you understand my explanations. If not, I am used to trying again in a different way. After all, it is quite a complicated subject.


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## OrientalSlave

The normal version of the silver gene doesn't produce a silver cat


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## OrientalSlave

OrientalSlave said:


> The normal version of the silver gene doesn't produce a silver cat


I should resist terse replies from the tablet! The silver gene is completely separate to the gene for colour (black, chocolate, cinnamon) and is inherited separately, as are the genes for agouti and dilute.

Cats have a phenotype - what they look like - and a genotype - what their genes are. You can't tell from looking at a black cat if it carries dilute or not, but you can tell from DNA testing. Phenotypes can be written down, and what often happens with a non-silver cat is that since the silver phenotype is ii, it's often not written, but the genes are still there.

It's possible to do an ABC of coat colour genetics, I've only covered what is mentioned above apart from the C genes - there are more:

A - Agouti - dominant - all tabby cats are either AA or Aa. Written A- if it's not known if the cat carries non-agouti, which is sometimes called solid.
B - Black - black (B), chocolate (b) or cinnamon (b1). Dominance is B > b > b1.
C - Colour depth - responsible for Burmese, Tonkinese & Siamese colour restrictions. In it's extreme form it will produce an albino cat. Written C (normal colouring), cb (burmese colouring) or cs (siamese colouring). A cat that has cb and cs is Tonkinese colour, intermediate between Burmese & Siamese.
D - dilution. If the cat is dd (rather than DD or Dd) it turns black into blue, chocolate into lilac and cinnamon into fawn. 
I - Silver. A cat that is II or Ii is silver or smoke. Most cats are ii - not silver, not smoke - and it can be very hard to spot sometimes. 
So my fawn self cats are aa b1b1 C- dd ii:

aa - they are not tabby cats
b1b1 - fawn is the dilute of cinnamon, and the most recessive colour, so other colours can't be carried
C- - they aren't any kind of points, but their mum carried Siamese. They could be Ccs or CC.
dd - they are dilute cats
ii - they are not smoke cats
Not sure if that helps! But maybe it will encourage you to think about each gene separately, and I think the ABCDI gives you a framework to construct a cat's genotype from it's phenotype.

Next up - punnet squares - maybe!


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## Susan M

I'm with you, so my girls 2 main genes are probably black? With silver as an add on? 
I think I understand that thank you 

Thank you @OrientalSlave that is very helpful! I will write it all down to refer back to easily.

Just when I think I've understood something, I think about something else and get confused. 
If red is dominant, isn't carried, how does a black parent and a cream parent make red offspring? The dominant black makes the cream dominant and makes it red? 
And does it work the other way, red mated to blue could make black?


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## OrientalSlave

Once you start talking about Orange (red or cream) it gets very complicated as Orange is a sex-linked gene (on the X sex chromosome only) and is becomes very, very easy to confuse oneself.

However if you think about how a black (Dd) and a blue cat (dd) can produce another black cat, that will help. Then consider that cream is diluted red and you will be on your way.

And yes, red x blue could produce black kittens. The red cat is Dd or DD, the blue is dd, so any Dd kittens will be red or black depending on how the Orange is inherited. 

Both examples could produce torties as well.... That's where it gets very complicated.


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## OrientalSlave

OrientalSlave said:


> C- - they aren't any kind of points, but their mum carried Siamese. They could be Ccs or CC.


This is talking about my fawn Oriental cats, Eadlin & Aoife.

Lola's mum was a blue-point Siamese, so she was cscs. Lola was a blue Oriental so she was Ccs - C from her daddy and cs from her mummy. She never had any Siamese kittens (cscs) so it's 50/50 for each of her kittens that they are also Ccs.


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## gskinner123

OrientalSlave said:


> Once you start talking about Orange (red or cream) it gets very complicated as Orange is a sex-linked gene (on the X sex chromosome only) and is becomes very, very easy to confuse oneself.
> 
> However if you think about how a black (Dd) and a blue cat (dd) can produce another black cat, that will help. Then consider that cream is diluted red and you will be on your way.
> 
> And yes, red x blue could produce black kittens. The red cat is Dd or DD, the blue is dd, so any Dd kittens will be red or black depending on how the Orange is inherited.
> 
> Both examples could produce torties as well.... That's where it gets very complicated.


But only of course if the queen is red and the sire blue - not the other way around  I know you know that, OS, but isn't it difficult to explain?! With colour genetics it often feels that every time you state something you have to qualify the statement by saying something different


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## Susan M

It's funny you say that, I was going to clarify that to get red females either both parents have to have a red gene, or the Mother has to have 2 red genes? 
Just to confuse myself further, I know of a mating of a brown tabby female to a red male, and they're expecting all red kittens? How does brown work?


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Just when I think I've understood something, I think about something else and get confused.
> If red is dominant, isn't carried, how does a black parent and a cream parent make red offspring? The dominant black makes the cream dominant and makes it red?
> And does it work the other way, red mated to blue could make black?


I will answer your questions separately since I have only just seen these later posts.

Black is only dominant to chocolate and cinnamon. Perhaps you remember I said those basic colours were at the same locus but red is located on the female chromosome and you are correct in saying it is always expressed but, on occasion, you have to look very hard to find it.

The reason the offspring from a cream parent can be red is because cream is only red with the addition of two dilute genes. A cream must pass on one of its dilute genes to all its offspring but you have to have a dilute gene from each parent to produce a dilute cat. So red to blue can produce black because blue is the black gene with the addition of two dilute genes. Again, the blue will only pass on one of its dilute genes to each kitten. If the other parent does not pass on a dilute gene, the kitten will not be dilute.


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> It's funny you say that, I was going to clarify that to get red females either both parents have to have a red gene, or the Mother has to have 2 red genes?
> Just to confuse myself further, I know of a mating of a brown tabby female to a red male, and they're expecting all red kittens? How does brown work?


You have to remember that a cat inherits one of every pair of genes from each parent. The reason a red dam can produce a red boy is because the red gene is sex-linked and a male only has one female chromosome. A red dam mated to a non-red male will only produce tortie females. To get a red girl you have to have red on both sides.

Sorry to dash the expectations of red kittens but the mating you describe will produce tortie females and all non-red males, no reds at all. Brown tabby is simply another name for black tabby.


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## QOTN

OrientalSlave said:


> So my fawn self cats are aa b1b1 C- dd ii:
> 
> aa - they are not tabby cats
> b1b1 - fawn is the dilute of cinnamon, and the most recessive colour, so other colours can't be carried
> C- - they aren't any kind of points, but their mum carried Siamese. They could be Ccs or CC.
> dd - they are dilute cats
> ii - they are not smoke cats
> 
> Next up - punnet squares - maybe!


Sorry to be picky but your fawns are bl bl. Cinnamon is classed as light brown hence bl not b1.


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## OrientalSlave

My bad. It's very hard to tell a 1 (one) from an l (lower case l) in some type faces or if the font is rather small, must have originally seen it on an ambiguous one.


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## Susan M

Just realised I got that wrong, female is brown tortie tabby. That still doesn't guarantee all reds does it?

So is brown an add odd in the same way silver is?


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## Tigermoon

@QOTN Do you happen to know anything about Fawn colouring and how it is inherited etc.?


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Just realised I got that wrong, female is brown torti tabby. That still doesn't guarantee all reds does it?
> 
> So is brown an add odd in the same way silver is?


It doesn't *guarantee *all reds but it gives a *chance *of red girls and red boys.

I have never bred British but I suspect that a brown tabby is the same as an oriental brown tabby. It is actually black but called brown because of the background colour. The spots will be black and it is genetically a black cat. (there is no 'brown' gene.) I expect British breeders may use black for silvers and brown for non-silvers. (Please help me here British breeders.)


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## QOTN

Tigermoon said:


> @QOTN Do you happen to know anything about Fawn colouring and how it is inherited etc.?


Indeed I do, Tigermoon. When I started breeding, one of my aims was to breed oriental fawns. In the late eighties they were very rare and just at preliminary status.

As Oriental Slave has said, they are nearly all recessive. The only colour that is more recessive is fawn point.

Fawn is dilute cinnamon, so requires two cinnamon genes and two dilute genes to be expressed. Does that answer your question or are you asking how to breed it?

Cinnamon probably originated in the abyssinian breed since the sorrel is the first known example of cinnamon in pedigree cats. The oriental cinnamon was discovered by chance when Maureen Silson was investigating the genetics of the sorrel abyssinian which at that time was thought to be some form of red although it was known it was not sex-linked.

In the early nineties the first British cinnamons were bred and I think there are other breeds that have also adopted the cinnamon gene since.


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## Susan M

QOTN said:


> It doesn't *guarantee *all reds but it gives a *chance *of red girls and red boys.
> 
> I have never bred British but I suspect that a brown tabby is the same as an oriental brown tabby. It is actually black but called brown because of the background colour. The spots will be black and it is genetically a black cat. (there is no 'brown' gene.) I expect British breeders may use black for silvers and brown for non-silvers. (Please help me here British breeders.)


Understand that, I did think expecting all reds didn't seem right. 
One more silly question, using black as an example, to get blue do you have to have one dilute from each parent? Not two dilutes from the same parent? Does that even exist, I made that up didn't I?


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## Tigermoon

Thank you @QOTN yes it does. I've often wondered if Fawn lurks in Birmans unnoticed and is just lumped in with Lilac (due to the fact there are two distinct lilac colours in the breed), but from what you are saying here, I guess not.


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## OrientalSlave

Susan M said:


> Understand that, I did think expecting all reds didn't seem right.
> One more silly question, using black as an example, to get blue do you have to have one dilute from each parent? Not two dilutes from the same parent? Does that even exist, I made that up didn't I?


Pairs of genes always come one from each parent.


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## OrientalSlave

Tigermoon said:


> Thank you @QOTN yes it does. I've often wondered if Fawn lurks in Birmans unnoticed and is just lumped in with Lilac (due to the fact there are two distinct lilac colours in the breed), but from what you are saying here, I guess not.


If cinnamon was lurking in Birmans you would also get cinnamon-points. Those different lilacs might be lilac-based caramel & lilac, though you would also get two different sorts of blue if that was the case.


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## OrientalSlave

QOTN said:


> Indeed I do, Tigermoon. When I started breeding, one of my aims was to breed oriental fawns. In the late eighties they were very rare and just at preliminary status.
> 
> <snip>


Oriental fawns are still very rare and there are not many more Oriental cinnamons. It's hard to find studs who carry cinnamon as well, at least ones within 5 hours drive.

Eadlin is the 3rd ever Gr Ch, and the first one was a long time ago, before 2010 I believe. The second was a show or three before Eadlin! I did show two at the same show last year, possibly the first person ever to do so in GCCF.


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## Tigermoon

OrientalSlave said:


> If cinnamon was lurking in Birmans you would also get cinnamon-points. Those different lilacs might be lilac-based caramel & lilac, though you would also get two different sorts of blue if that was the case.


Caramel? I've never heard of that, is that a separate colour or related to Lilac? I've never seen anything I could describe as cinnamon in Birmans in the UK.


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## gskinner123

QOTN said:


> I have never bred British but I suspect that a brown tabby is the same as an oriental brown tabby. It is actually black but called brown because of the background colour. The spots will be black and it is genetically a black cat. (there is no 'brown' gene.) I expect British breeders may use black for silvers and brown for non-silvers. (Please help me here British breeders.)


Pretty much. Dedicated, traditionalist BSH silver breeders would most usually consider using a black as an "outcross" for silver breeding in an attempt to improve type, bone and overall size, BSH silvers often lacking in those things. It's not commonly done, however, as using any non-silver cat in a silver breeding programme tends to result in tarnishing of the silver and, of course, selfs have the incorrect eye colour for black silver BSH breeding - it's the usual trade off. Browns tend to be the focus of breeders who are particularly interested in that colour and their associated dilute and tortie tabby colours.

The vast majority of dedicated black silver tabby BSH breeders choose not to 'outcross' to other colours and if they're considering it, it's often with much deliberation as they know that doing so will almost certainly mean several generations forward before they can regain true green eye colour and clear, untarnished coats, resulting in many (dare I say, good) black silver lines remaining homozygous for agouti, the inhibitor gene and the vast majority would also not carry dilute. Somewhere in between are those who are breeding the AOC silvers. At the other end of the scale there are those who seem not to mind using just about any coloured BSH cat - including bi-colours and colourpoint  - so long as the end result is a silver litter (or what they *think* will be a silver litter) and, as they have always been, highly desirable as pets with the associated price tag.


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## QOTN

Tigermoon said:


> Caramel? I've never heard of that, is that a separate colour or related to Lilac? .


Please do not worry about the so-called caramel gene. It is only a theory. According to this theory there is a 'dilute modifier gene' which alters the appearance of a dilute cat. Despite ongoing research no such gene has so far been found. Those of us who are cynical think it is probably all part of the polygenic variation present in any colour and it becomes more noticeable when breeders concentrate on type over colour.

Originally it was claimed the dilute modifier gene was carried by dense coloured cats but then 'funny coloured' dilutes started appearing from two dilute parents. That was, and still is, a problem.

Just be grateful if you don't have judges arguing endlessly over whether or not a particular Birman is caramel!


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## Tigermoon

QOTN said:


> Just be grateful if you don't have judges arguing endlessly over whether or not a particular Birman is caramel!


They already argue whether or not a Birman is Red Point or Red Tabby Point and I've even seen judges arguing if a cat was Seal or Chocolate and Blue or Lilac!! All three sets of judges were Birman breeders so really should know! Particularly is it was obvious in the case of the Seal/Chocolate one.

I've got a litter at the moment ... all Lilac. Most are a delightful pink colour but one is darker than the others. In fact I thought that it must be chocolate but as they are now 7 weeks old there really is no way it can be chocolate.


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## OrientalSlave

Tigermoon said:


> They already argue whether or not a Birman is *Red Point or Red Tabby Point* and I've even seen judges arguing if a cat was Seal or Chocolate and Blue or Lilac!! All three sets of judges were Birman breeders so really should know! Particularly is it was obvious in the case of the Seal/Chocolate one.
> 
> I've got a litter at the moment ... all Lilac. Most are a delightful pink colour but one is darker than the others. In fact I thought that it must be chocolate but as they are now 7 weeks old there really is no way it can be chocolate.


At least all the above can be settled by DNA testing. I've seen beautiful tabby markings of some self red cats!


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## Susan M

gskinner123 said:


> Pretty much. Dedicated, traditionalist BSH silver breeders would most usually consider using a black as an "outcross" for silver breeding in an attempt to improve type, bone and overall size, BSH silvers often lacking in those things. It's not commonly done, however, as using any non-silver cat in a silver breeding programme tends to result in tarnishing of the silver and, of course, selfs have the incorrect eye colour for black silver BSH breeding - it's the usual trade off. Browns tend to be the focus of breeders who are particularly interested in that colour and their associated dilute and tortie tabby colours.
> 
> The vast majority of dedicated black silver tabby BSH breeders choose not to 'outcross' to other colours and if they're considering it, it's often with much deliberation as they know that doing so will almost certainly mean several generations forward before they can regain true green eye colour and clear, untarnished coats, resulting in many (dare I say, good) black silver lines remaining homozygous for agouti, the inhibitor gene and the vast majority would also not carry dilute. Somewhere in between are those who are breeding the AOC silvers. At the other end of the scale there are those who seem not to mind using just about any coloured BSH cat - including bi-colours and colourpoint  - so long as the end result is a silver litter (or what they *think* will be a silver litter) and, as they have always been, highly desirable as pets with the associated price tag.


Yep, all silver breeders I've come into contact with only breed silver with silver because of the reasons you've said, black smokes are also less desirable because they have incorrect eye colour bred from silvers.

When I was re-reading Carly's post it says AA females will have all tabby offspring? Does that mean aa female to AA male will result in the same?


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Yep, all silver breeders I've come into contact with only breed silver with silver because of the reasons you've said, black smokes are also less desirable because they have incorrect eye colour bred from silvers.
> 
> When I was re-reading Carly's post it says AA females will have all tabby offspring? Does that mean aa female to AA male will result in the same?


Yes, since you only need one agouti gene to get a tabby. (It is dominant.) A cat with two agouti genes inevitably passes one of them to all its offspring. The mating AA to aa will produce all tabbies all carrying non-agouti.


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## Susan M

QOTN said:


> Yes, since you only need one agouti gene to get a tabby. (It is dominant.) A cat with two agouti genes inevitably passes one of them to all its offspring. The mating AA to aa will produce all tabbies all carrying non-agouti.


Ah of course, got it thanks


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## MerlinsMum

QOTN said:


> Please do not worry about the so-called caramel gene. It is only a theory. According to this theory there is a 'dilute modifier gene' which alters the appearance of a dilute cat. Despite ongoing research no such gene has so far been found.


I've never been totally convinced, despite going to a seminar on Caramel given by Patricia Turner, in the 1980s. I also find it interesting that more "Caramels" are found in Lilacs than Blues - which does account for the fact that Chocolate naturally has a lot of wide variations in shade.


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## QOTN

MerlinsMum said:


> I've never been totally convinced, despite going to a seminar on Caramel given by Patricia Turner, in the 1980s. I also find it interesting that more "Caramels" are found in Lilacs than Blues - which does account for the fact that Chocolate naturally has a lot of wide variations in shade.


Cinnamon has even more variation. I well remember the first OCA show after the cinnamons were granted championship status.There were 9 cinnamons there of several slightly different shades. There was a time in the 1990s when every AGM of OCFG had a ritual discussion on whether to change the description of the colour in the SOP. It remains 'warm cinnamon brown' to this day.

I am often surprised at the variation in the colour of black orientals these days. They should be jet black not a rusty shade but I think type triumphs over colour every time which is very sad.


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## Tigermoon

QOTN said:


> I am often surprised at the variation in the colour of black orientals these days. They should be jet black not a rusty shade but I think type triumphs over colour every time which is very sad.


Ooo I don't know. I'd much rather see a good type cat with a slightly unsound colour winning over a poor type cat with good colour any day. Birmans in the UK have lost size, type and boning because people paid far too much attention to the colour markings and forgot about the cat.


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## OrientalSlave

I've not seen any rusty black Orientals, but plenty of too dark, too cold Havanas. They can all go rusty in summer if they sunbathe. I've also seen a spectacular Birman with a beautiful pale honey-colour body.


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## QOTN

Tigermoon said:


> Ooo I don't know. I'd much rather see a good type cat with a slightly unsound colour winning over a poor type cat with good colour any day. Birmans in the UK have lost size, type and boning because people paid far too much attention to the colour markings and forgot about the cat.


I expect it is different with Birmans, Tigermoon. In orientals and siamese, 'size' and 'boning' are certainly not synonymous with type. Type in our breeds tends to mean spindly with huge ears sticking out the side of their head. Obviously there has to be a balance between 'good' type and colour. I think both are essential. In our breeds a large share of the points are for colour.


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## Tigermoon

QOTN said:


> I expect it is different with Birmans, Tigermoon. In orientals and siamese, 'size' and 'boning' are certainly not synonymous with type. Type in our breeds tends to mean spindly with huge ears sticking out the side of their head.


That may be so but personally I think that to forego type over colour in whatever breed you are dealing with can only lead to loss of the true type (whatever that may be) of that breed.



QOTN said:


> Obviously there has to be a balance between 'good' type and colour. I think both are essential. In our breeds a large share of the points are for colour.


I quite agree a balance must be met, but I would always chose a cat with correct type over a cat with spot-on colour/markings whose type was lacking. Birmans have more points than either the orientals or siamese for coat colour/pattern


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## QOTN

Tigermoon said:


> That may be so but personally I think that to forego type over colour in whatever breed you are dealing with can only lead to loss of the true type (whatever that may be) of that breed. I would certainly hope that no breeder goes about breeding based purely on the quality of the coat colour.
> I quite agree a balance must be met, but I would always chose a cat with correct type over a cat with spot-on colour/markings whose type was lacking. Birmans have more points than either the orientals or siamese for coat colour/pattern.


If those of us who developed new colours had chosen type *over *colour, we would never have got anywhere. We had to develop the two together, sometimes breeding on from a better type cat, sometimes a better colour cat.

Anyway, I think we are talking at cross purposes here since by 'type' we tend to mean *extreme* type in our breeds. I do hope Birmans are never prey to breeders who want to push them to extremes.


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## Tigermoon

QOTN said:


> If those of us who developed new colours had chosen type *over *colour, we would never have got anywhere. We had to develop the two together, sometimes breeding on from a better type cat, sometimes a better colour cat.


I don't get your point here as choosing type worked when bringing the Chocolate, Red and Tabby colour series into Birmans, the colours came along too and the type of the breed didn't suffer as a consequence.



QOTN said:


> Anyway, I think we are talking at cross purposes here since by 'type' we tend to mean *extreme* type in our breeds. I do hope Birmans are never prey to breeders who want to push them to extremes.


I've never heard of 'type' being used to mean extremes,but rather the overall desired structure of the cat. Birmans are classed as a moderate breed and have a specific type which is set within the standard of points. I for one would never want to see a Birman that looks like a Persian or a Siamese because then they would be expressing totally the wrong type for the breed.


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## Susan M

Me again 

If for example you breed from some kind of black girl to a red boy, is there any rule on whether the black or red will be more dominant in male offspring? Or do you just say there's are chance of black or red boys?

And if you bred a black silver tabby girl to red boy would you only get tortie girls? (With or without silver and tabby) Or could you get black (with or without silver/tabby). I know you could get black silver tabby boys.


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Me again
> 
> If for example you breed from some kind of black girl to a red boy, is there any rule on whether the black or red will be more dominant in male offspring? Or do you just say there's are chance of black or red boys?
> 
> And if you bred a black silver tabby girl to red boy would you only get tortie girls? (With or without silver and tabby) Or could you get black (with or without silver/tabby). I know you could get black silver tabby boys.


Some kind of black girl to a red boy will produce no reds, but all the girls will be torties. To get a red boy you have to have a red or tortie girl. The red girl will produce all red boys but the tortie will produce a mixture of red and non-red boys. Don't read the next bit if you are happy with just knowing that fact but here is the explanation. Forget the black and concentrate on the red. That gene is carried on the female chromosome. A girl has two of these but a boy has only one plus a male chromosome. This means that a red boy inevitably passes his red gene to all his female offspring but to get a boy he must pass on his male chromosome, hence no reds.

So yes, the black silver tabby girl to a red boy will produce *all* tortie girls. And yes, *all *non-red boys.


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## Susan M

Oh of course! Sometimes I just need it explaining again but I totally understand, the amount of misinformation being told by breeders to a breeder I know is scary. 

Just to clarify, males pass on their Y chromosome to all male offspring? 
So the possibilities are black or black silver tabby/smoke? (With Aa and aa parents).


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## QOTN

Susan M said:


> Oh of course! Sometimes I just need it explaining again but I totally understand, the amount of misinformation being told by breeders to a breeder I know is scary.
> 
> Just to clarify, males pass on their Y chromosome to all male offspring?
> So the possibilities are black or black silver tabby/smoke? (With Aa and aa parents).


Being male requires a male (Y) chromosome.That is what makes them different from us! Females have no Y chromosome so inevitably all the males inherit their sire's Y chromosome.

The possibilities are probably as you say but without knowing the exact genotype you could not be absolutely certain but definitely no red boys.


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## Susan M

Got you thank you  I feel like I kind of know what I'm talking about now! 

The brown tortie tabby to red had no reds btw, but did have colours I thought she would!


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## lillytheunicorn

Would a ticked tabby to a solid have any other tabby patterns? She is a tortie tabby with white (carries dilute as daddy a blue) to a solid blue so I know there might be black / blue torties, red, cream, blacks, blue with or without white (she is a NFO, so no chocolate cinnamon etc) but I was intrigued as to the tabby patterning the kittens might have. She carries the silver gene as great great grand mummy is a silver. (I'm hoping for a black and white tuxedo typey girl but I reckon the litter is going to be a singleton boy)


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## QOTN

The ticked gene is dominant to the other tabby patterns so it depends what patterns both cats carry. If she is pure for ticked, other patterns cannot be expressed. She could only have classics if both cats carry that gene. Although the silver gene continues to elude those researchers trying to find a DNA test, it is considered to be dominant so cannot be carried. Is she overstamped 'silver in the pedigree?' This is because low grade silver can be hard to detect especially in dilute cats so the overstamping was introduced to warn anybody who might find it unwelcome.


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## OrientalSlave

I have a feeling it's theoretically possible to get all tabby patterns from this mating. Both cats need to carry classic, and the solid needs to be a mackerel tabby carrying classic. One or both of them needs a gene for spotted as well.

Classic + classic = classic
Mackerel + classic = mackerel
Ticked + classic = ticked

Spotted turns classic / mackerel tabbies into spotted tabbies.


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## QOTN

It might be possible to tell if your girl is homozygous for ticked unless her legs are all white. A cat with two ticked genes will have virtually no tabby striping on its legs etc but a heterozygous one will have leg bars and tail rings and more facial markings. It is not known for certain if there is a spotted gene. It is possible the spotted pattern could be due to polygenes. (There is also a suspicion this could be the case with silver but that is not relevant to this mating.)


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## lillytheunicorn

Thank you, so from what you have said I can expect pretty much any tabby pattern as she has classic, mackerel and spotted in her pedigree. He has 4 gens of solids and white both sides but he has mackerel and classic back 5 generations.

I think she is probably a homozygous for ticked as she has well defined bars and facial markings and I have looked back through her 5 gen pedigree and I can't see another ticked tabby in her pedigree but there is a maternal line of white cats and solids so I assume they must be the ticked tabbies carriers. 

I did not realise the silver was a dominant, therefore couldn't be carried and yes she is over stamped silver in pedigree.


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## QOTN

What both cats have on their pedigrees 5 generations back is only an indication of the possibilities. What the parents carry is the important thing. If she has well defined tabby markings she is heterozygous for ticked so you may have kittens with other tabby patterns.


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## lillytheunicorn

It happens to help I put my brain into gear as she isn't a ticked tabby but a spotted hence why I couldn't find any ticked tabbies when I traced her back to foundation cats on pawpeds.

Apologies for my stupidity so definitely unlikely that she will have ticked tabbies in the litter


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## Emily fielding

Can someone on here tell me if my cat is a Maine coon mix?


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## QOTN

The only way genetics can help you decide if your girl is a Maine Coon is if she has either of the faulty genes which are found exclusively in Maine Coons. You must hope she does not because she would have either HCM or be a carrier or affected by Spinal Muscular Atrophy.


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## lillytheunicorn

So the mating between spotted tortie tabby (carrying dilute) and blue resulted in two black (probably) females, two red boys, a black and white female and a tortie tabby girl in the litter (no dilutes ). The Torbie pattern is quite difficult to make out at the moment hopefully by 4 weeks it will easier although mummy isn't the most obvious spotted tabby in the world (hence my confusion) although she does have good leg bars and facial markings


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## Vantuuz

Hello ladies
I would appreciate if someone could point out the correct place to look for some info. Maybe someone here knows the answer.

Why it is not recommended to breed white cat with bicolour? I have found that white could carry harmful traits for bicolour but I think I have looked everywhere on the net and can't find any more info except this statement.

I have read about whites masking bicolours so there must have been white+bicolour mating underneath..


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## Vantuuz

I have bought Robinsons Genetics for cat breeders and veterinarians.. Slowly going through.. I find it interesting book, however.. lots of information to remember and understand.
And still can't find anything about white and bicolour breeding.. 
please please can someone enlighten me


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## OrientalSlave

White cats have a copy of the dominant white gene. Gccf bans white to white matings as if the cat gets two copies it's more likely to be deaf.

Bicolors have one or two copies of the White spotting gene, 2 copies tends to lead to more white.


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## Vantuuz

Breeding policy for exotic shorthair says:


It is recommended that cats which carry a trait harmful to another breed programme should not be used in a programme other than that into which they were born, eg. it is not desirable to use a White in a Bi-Colour breeding programme.
This is what is confusing me and I can't get my head around it.


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## OrientalSlave

Possibly they think that cats with both genes are more likely to be deaf?


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## Vantuuz

I am under impression that deafness is connected with W gene where bicolours have S..
I had a thought that it might be this however can't find info where it would be mentioned that S gene doesn't "go well" with W..


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## Janetheplane

Puindoors said:


> Hi CARLY,
> 
> you're mostly right but there are a few errors in there. I'll have another look at it later, got to go do dinner for the hungry hoardes! Genetics is my thing, feel free to ask any questions!
> 
> Dominant and Recessive
> Genes come in two types.
> 
> Not true I'm afraid, many genes have a variety of possiblities called 'alleles' and many d onot show a simply domniant or recessive relationship. For example there are a whole spectrum of possiblities with some characteristics, its not matter of one or the other.
> 
> Chocolate
> Just to complicate things further, theres another way that colours can vary. Well, theres more than one, but lets keep it simple. Chocolate is an alteration of the black dominant gene.
> 
> Choclate is an allele of black, its a different form of the black gene, Cinnamon is another form of the black gene. Black is dominant to chocolate, which is dominant to cinnamon. There is no additional modifier gene involved.
> 
> Dilute is a separate gene to one of the pigment genes, it does the same thing to any pigment, i.e makes the pigmant more diffuse in the hair shafts.


Could you please check out my post


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## Janetheplane

Puindoors said:


> Male torties are very interesting, the following is an excerpt from a feline studies Diploma
> 
> approximately one out of every 1000 tortoiseshell cats are male. This seemingly impossible occurrence can be explain in several ways.
> 
> 1. Klinefelters Syndrome.
> The male is a genetic anomaly and has inherited 2 X chromosomes (XXY) rather than the normal one ( XY). This fault is linked to an error in the formation of the egg cell that distributes an extra X chromosome into the fertilised egg, males with this genotype are almost universally sterile. It is not known how common Klinefelters syndrome is, as males who are not tortie could equally have the condition, and if neutered before breeding an owner would be unaware of the condition.
> 
> 2. Mosaicism.
> This is the result of a somatic ( body cell) mutation and causes ginger cats to have small black spots, much like moles or birthmarks in humans. Mosaics occur when a mistake during cell division in the early embryo stops the correct number of chromosomes segregating to each cell, or creates a mutation in a single gene. Where this happens in one of the first few cell divisions after fertilisation, a large proportion of cells will inherit the mutation or chromosomal anomaly. Occasionally, these black blemishes may be large enough to give the appearance of a tortoiseshell cat, albeit one with a low amount of black. The size of the black patches may also depend on how early in embryo development the mutation happened. Very late and it gives a spot or speckle, earlier the black patches are larger as the cells multiply during embryo growth. Somatic mutation is rarely noticed in female cats because tortoiseshell is an unremarkable colour of females - it may be noticed if a black or tortoiseshell female kitten appears in a litter where black or tortoiseshell is a genetically impossible outcome of the mating. In red and white cats where there is a lot of white, the addition of even small black patches can give the appearance of a calico cat.
> This phenomenon (somatic mosaicism) is more common and better understood than chimaerism. For example, some mosaics have patches of cells that have an extra chromosome (called trisomy). The individual develops trisomic patches of tissue - an XY male may have some XXY tissues (another potential cause of tortoiseshell male cats).
> 
> 3. Chimerism.
> 
> This condition results from 2 fertilized eggs fusing during early embyogenesis. If the two fertilized eggs (embryos) are both XY, this gives an XY/XY male chimera. In an XY/XY chimaera if one X has the O gene and the other does not then some fur will be red and some black because different parts of the skin originate from different eggs. A mix of any other colours found in male cats is also possible e.g. a mosaic of grey and black. An XY/XY chimera would be fully fertile.
> If an XY egg fuses with an XX egg (a male embryo fuses with a female embryo), it gives a XX/XY chimaera containing some tissues/organs which are genetically female and other tissues which are genetically male. In an XX/XY chimaera, X chromosome inactivation occurs. The 3 X chromosomes in the animal may contain an assortment of different colour genes. The physical appearance and the sexual behaviour of an XX/XY chimaera depends on which structures contain which chromosomes. A good example of this is a Maine Coon Solkatz Pretty Boy Floid who is a mix of red, grey and white - a colour combination impossible in a normal XY. Floid was initially thought to be a female because his colour, dilute tortie (blue, cream and white). Floid's second anomaly was discovered when his breeders noticed that the cream portions of his coat were actually red, thus a solid colour as well as a dilute, thirdly Floid was also found to be fertile. The colours of his kittens prove that his testicular tissue came from the red kitten ( in the chimeric mix) as he never sired a blue ( dilute) kitten.
> 
> Intresting isn't it, at least I think so, but then again I'm a genetics geek!


Could you please check out my post


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## OrientalSlave

Janetheplane said:


> Could you please check out my post


Puindoors hadn't been around since 2012, but I have replied to your post


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## Kaz1985%

carly87 said:


> Ok, folks. Some of you asked to see my information on genetics, so here you go. I take no responsibility for the headache that it's going to give you!
> 
> I'd ask that you please not copy or reproduce this without asking first.
> 
> So, your cat is pregnant. One of the most common questions people ask is what colour the kittens will be. This all comes down to genetics. I'll start with the basics.
> 
> What is a gene?
> In its simplest form, a gene is a part of your DNA. It is a chain of different molecules which code for the production of a protein in the body. These proteins and coding strands are responsible for many things from hair colour to height, skin tone and even weight to some extent (no, that can't be used as a valid reason to go eat chocolate!). In short, genes are the things that make you look the way you do. They are passed to you from your mother and your father. In this article, I'll be looking at genes specifically linked to coat colour and pattern.
> 
> How do we get genes?
> At the point of fertilization, a sperm from the father and an egg from the mother join. Each of these cells carries genetic or DNA information which binds together when the cells join. DNA is housed on things called chromosomes. Most are x-shaped, one half being formed from the mother's DNA and the other from the father's. Genes therefore have a pair partner on the opposite strand of the chromosome. However, whereas a female possesses all X shaped chromosomes, a male has one in each cell that is a Y shape. It is missing a leg. This means that genes on the opposite corresponding leg have no pair partner. Cat coat colour genes exist on this chromosome, which explains why girls only are torties. Boys can only express one colour at a time due to not having a pair partner in the DNA for the colour gene. Those male torties that do exist are sterile. This is because they not only have an x-y chromosome as normal males do, but they have an XXY set-up, meaning they have an extra, unwanted chromosome. This has the added effect of making them sterile.
> 
> Dominant and Recessive
> Genes come in two types. These are called dominant and recessive. Dominant genes do what their name suggests; they dominate. Just one dominant gene will mean that a cat exhibits the trait linked to that gene. Recessives cannot manifest alone. There needs to be two recessives in order for the physical trait to be noticed. To understand genes, you need to remember that they always come in pairs, one from the mother and one from the father. When it comes to coat colour, the recessive gene commonly seen is called a dilute gene. This is because it dilutes the true colour of the coat to form something else.
> 
> A person can be said to be a carrier of a recessive, but not a dominant. Why? Because carriers possess the gene, but do not show the physical trait. Remember, if a person, or a cat has a dominant gene, they will show that trait even if they only have one dominant. So, if they have a dominant, they cannot carry the gene because they show the trait. The same is true if they possess two recessives. However, if they have only one recessive, then they will possess the gene but not the trait, so can be called a carrier. This will be important when we come on to predicting colour possibilities in cats.
> 
> Speaking of cats, let's get to colour. Believe it or not, there are only two true colours in cats. Despite the profusion of different coloured coats and combinations out there, they all come from only two colours. Those are black and red. Every coat colour's genetics can be traced back to either black or red. But how? That's what I'm going to try and explain. And that's when it gets complicated.
> 
> Dilutes, the recessives remember, are very important in coat colour in cats, as they allow deviation from the blacks and reds. Black and red are dominant, but the dilutes, even though they are recessive, are able to work in tandem with this dominant to alter it. If a cat has the dominant gene for black, but also possesses two dilute genes, then instead of black, their coat will turn blue. Likewise, if another cat has the dominant for red, two dilutes will work with the red gene to produce a cream coat.
> 
> But you've seen cats that show black and red together, haven't you? Or cats who show blue and cream? Well, that's very common. These cats are called torties and blue torties/blue-creams. Most of them are female, but a very small percentage can be male. Females exhibit black and red or the dilute forms of them due to having two x chromosomes. So although the two are dominant, they can both exist in harmony given their position on chromosomes. If a boy had two x chromosomes, he could do the same thing.
> 
> So, by the logic we've already explored, you couldn't have a cat with red and cream in its coat. Why? Because it takes two dilute genes to make cream, and if you have two dilutes, they cancel out the red. Similarly, you couldn't have a cat with black and blue. The same is true when you look at red and blue or cream and black. I hope you understand why. Remember, two recessives/dilutes code for cream and blue, so when they're there, they cancel out the red and black. Blue-cream exists together because both are dilute colours. Red and black exist together because both are dominant colours.
> 
> Chocolate and cineamon
> Just to complicate things further, there's another way that colours can vary. Well, there's more than one, but let's keep it simple. Chocolate is an alteration of the black dominant gene. So imagine a black gene with an extension which changes it to chocolate and you're close to understanding how it works. Chocolate, of course,can also be altered by a dilute. Confused? I was for a long time. Basically, chocolate acts like a recessive gene. That means, as with the dilute, that two copies of chocolate must exist before the cat can have a chocolate colour visible on its coat. One copy alone makes the cat a chocolate carrier. However, here's where things get extra tricky. Chocolate can itself be modified by that old friend, the dilute. If a cat has two copies of chocolate and two dilutes, then it makes lilac. Obviously, if a cat only has one dilute then chocolate still wins. If it has only one chocolate, then the dilute will act on the dominant coat colour, red or black.
> 
> Ready for more complication? Chocolate cannot impact the red gene, so if you have a red boy or girl, they can have two copies of the chocolate gene and not show it. They can also have two copies of the dilute and still not show chocolate or lilac, although in this case, the base colour of the coat would be cream, not red (remember, red plus two dilutes =cream).
> 
> Now to come on to cineamon. Keeping it as simple as possible, cineamon is also an alteration of the black gene, but in order for cineamon to be expressed, then the chocolate extension to the black gene must already be in place. Thus, to have a chocolate cat, you must have the black gene. To have a cineamon coloured cat, you must have the chocolate extension or part of the black gene already there.
> 
> Then if you add in a dilute to that mix, a cineamon cat becomes a fawn.
> 
> White: Although this isn't exactly a colour, it is almost like a trump card, for if copies of a white gene exist, they mask all other colours. So even if a cat possesses the genetic make-up to be a tortie, it will still appear white due to the masking properties of this gene. Even if only one copy exists, the cat will still be white. This is the ace of spades when it comes to colours!
> 
> So, to recap:
> Black and red are dominant, so only one copy is necessary to see a physical trait presented.
> Dilute is recessive. If only one copy exists, a cat is a dilute carrier. If two copies exist, black cats become blues, red cats become creams, and tortie cats become blue-creams
> Chocolate acts like a recessive gene which only modifies the black dominant. Any reds with two copies of the chocolate gene will remain red but can be referred to as red chocolates. Two copies of the gene on a black cat will make it a chocolate. One copy will make any cat a chocolate carrier.
> The dilute modifies chocolate, if two copies exist, to become lilac.
> White is the trump gene, masking all other colours. Any cat with even one copy of the white gene will appear as all white. Any cat with two copies of the gene will consistently produce offspring who are all white.
> 
> Ok, now that we have that sorted, we do, don't we? It's time to move on to patterns.
> 
> Colourpoint is a recessive gene, so two copies are necessary for a cat to be pointed.
> Tabby is a dominant, so only one copy is necessary for tabby to become the pattern.
> Bicolour is also dominant. When one copy of the gene is present, a black cat becomes a black and white bicolour, a red cat a red and white bicolour, and a tortie a dominant tortie and white. Remember that with the influence of the dilute, you can also get blue and white bicolours and cream and white, as well as dilute tortie and white. If a cat has two copies of the gene, it will be mostly white and will be called a van.
> Shaded/smoke/shell: This too is dominant. One copy alone makes a black cat a black smoke, a red cat a red smoke and a tortie a tortie smoke. The smoke gene varies in its expression though, producing something called variable penetrance. This basically deals with the length of the hair shaft that the colour extends to. Smokes have a hair shaft that is mostly coloured, but with a white undercoat. When the colour extends 50% down the shaft, the cat is a shaded rather than a smoke. Some cats have colour just on the tips of the shaft, and these are called shells.
> 
> There is one final pattern, silver/golden, but it is quite a complex one to explain given that it is a combination of three genes working together. If any of you wish to know more, please write me privately and I'll direct you to an informative article to read.
> 
> Ok, now to colour prediction at last. There are two ways to do this. The first is to look at a cat's pattern and work through it until you reduce the genes to the dominant red or black (remember, every pattern is made from these colours). This is called de-construction. The second way is to take the cat and begin with black or red, adding the modifier genes until you come up with the existing pattern. This is often what we breeders have to do to work out the possibilities for colour and pattern from specific matings. I will give you examples of each and talk you through how to do them. I'll start with de-construction, as it's probably a bit easier. I'll concentrate on tabbies, colourpoints and bicolours as these are easier to get to grips with.
> 
> Deconstruction
> 1. A blue tabby. First of all, remove the tabby gene. This leaves you with a blue cat. Then remove the dilute to leave black.
> 2. A cream and white bicolour. Remove the bicolour to leave a cream, then remove the dilute to leave red.
> 3. A blue tortie colourpoint. Remove the colourpoint to leave a blue-cream tortie. Remove the dilute to leave tortie.
> 4. A white. Remove white to get… Anything is possible. Remember, white masks any colour or pattern combination.
> 5. A lilac tabby colourpoint. Remove the tabby to leave a lilac colourpoint. Remove the colourpoint to leave a lilac. Remove the chocolate to get blue. Remove blue to get black.
> 
> Construction.
> 1. A cream tabby. Add dilute to red to get cream. Add tabby to cream to get cream tabby.
> 2. A blue and white bicolour. Begin with black. Add dilute to get blue, then bicolour to get a blue and white bicolour.
> 3. A blue-cream tabby colourpoint. Begin with tortie, red and black. Add dilute to get blue-cream. Add tabby to get a blue-cream tabby. Add colourpoint to get a blue-cream tabby point (also called a blue tortie tabby point).
> 4. White. Start with black or red, and add anything you like. As long as you finish with adding white, the cat will appear white, no matter its genetic colouring or patterning.
> 5. A red chocolate colourpoint. (Remember, chocolate only modifies the black gene. This cat would actually be seen as a red colourpoint). Start with red. Add chocolate to get red chocolate (this will appear to the eye as still a red cat). Then add colourpoint to get a red choc colourpoint. Note: The cats would be classed by registering bodies as red colourpoints despite carrying two copies of the chocolate gene.
> 
> The challenge:
> As a breeder or owner of a pregnant cat, you will need to be able to generate colour/pattern possibilities based on the pattern and colour of the mother and father. To this end, I am going to leave you with the colours and patterns involved in a specific mating. Try to predict the colours of kittens the mother might produce. Do remember though that torties or blue-creams are usually only female. Also remember that a tortie mother can pass on either black or red to her offspring, while the father can only pass on one colour.
> 
> The mother is a seal tortie colourpoint carrying dilute and chocolate. Seal is a modification of the black gene, but for the application of genetics, treat it as a black gene in your workings out. So in simple terms, she is a tortie colourpoint carrying dilute and chocolate. The father is a cream colourpoint who does not carry chocolate. So, what colour kittens will she produce? For the really enterprising among you, predict whether they will carry chocolate/dilute as well. I'll tell you the answer at the end of the article.
> 
> To help you, I will outline the process involved in predicting offspring from a different mating combination.
> Mother: blue tortie tabby carrying colourpoint.
> Father: chocolate colourpoint. He does not carry dilute.
> 
> De-construction:
> Mother: remove tabby to leave blue tortie, and dilute to leave tortie.
> Father: Remove colourpoint to leave chocolate, and chocolate to leave black.
> 
> Combinations:
> All kittens will carry dilute, as the mother has two copies and the dad has none. Therefore, blues, creams, lilacs, blue-creams or lilac-creams are not an option, because no kitten will get two copies of the dilute gene.
> All kittens will carry colourpoint as the dad has two copies. Colourpoint kittens are a possibility if the mother passes on her single copy to offspring.
> If the mother carries two tabby genes, all offspring will be tabby. I know this mother did not, which means tabby is a possibility as she only carries one copy of this dominant gene.
> Girl kittens: black, black tabby, seal colourpoint, seal tabby colourpoint, tortie, tortie tabby, seal tortie colourpoint, seal tortie tabby colourpoint.
> Boys: black, black tabby, seal colourpoint, seal tabby colourpoint, red, red tabby, red colourpoint, red tabby colourpoint.
> Note that boys are not torties, and that boys can be solid red where girls cannot. This is because the father always passes a black gene. Girls, because of their x chromosomes can express both black and red at the same time, but for the boys, it is the mother who has the final say on colour, hence the ability for her red to be expressed. This is because it is the mother who passes on the X chromosome and the father the Y. Remember that the colour genes are on the leg of the chromosome missing from the y.
> 
> I hope this has been helpful, and sorry it's been so long and confusing!
> 
> Answers:
> From the above mating, you can expect to see the following:
> All kittens will either show dilute colours of blue or cream, or will be dilute carriers.
> Kittens may or may not be chocolate carriers, but there is no way to tell.
> All kittens will be colourpoints.
> Girls: red, cream, seal tortie, bluecream.
> Boys: seal, blue, red, cream.


What colour kittens would you get from 2 dilute colours (blue/lilac) but 1 I believe is more dominant (blue) , so a blue and a lilac 
Also what would you get from 2 blue parents only 1 carrying lilac


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## OrientalSlave

Kaz1985% said:


> What colour kittens would you get from 2 dilute colours (blue/lilac) but 1 I believe is more dominant (blue) , so a blue and a lilac
> Also what would you get from 2 blue parents only 1 carrying lilac


Two Blue carrying chocolate cats will have on average 3 blues to 1 lilac. If only one carries chocolate then all blue.


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## Kaz1985%

OrientalSlave said:


> Two Blue carrying chocolate cats will have on average 3 blues to 1 lilac. If only one carries chocolate then all blue.


Right so blue is dominant over chocolate/lilac?
Both parents have to carry lilac to get a lilac kittens. If just 1 parent carries lilac then they will all be blue


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## QOTN

Blue is the dilute form of black. Lilac is the dilute form of chocolate. Black is dominant to chocolate so only one black gene is required to have a black cat and two chocolate genes or one chocolate and one cinnamon are required to have a chocolate. 

A cat has to have 2 dilute genes to be dilute, one inherited from each parent so two dilute parents will produce all dilute offspring.


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## OrientalSlave

Kaz1985% said:


> Right so blue is dominant over chocolate/lilac?
> Both parents have to carry lilac to get a lilac kittens. If just 1 parent carries lilac then they will all be blue


A blue cat is the result of black & dilute, or black carrying chocolate & dilute, or black carrying cinnamon & dilute. A lilac cat is the result of chocolate and dilute, or chocolate carrying cinnamon & dilute.

Black is dominant over chocolate, which is dominant over cinnamon.

Lilac is not carried as there is no single lilac gene. What is carried is chocolate.


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## Kaz1985%

OrientalSlave said:


> A blue cat is the result of black & dilute, or black carrying chocolate & dilute, or black carrying cinnamon & dilute. A lilac cat is the result of chocolate and dilute, or chocolate carrying cinnamon & dilute.
> 
> Black is dominant over chocolate, which is dominant over cinnamon.
> 
> Lilac is not carried as there is no single lilac gene. What is carried is chocolate.


OK so all would be blue,if only 1 parent carried lilac. I did think this, but just trying to learn it all. I understand the dominant colours, but was wondering if 2 dilute colours are present which dilute colour would they be, out of blue and lilac.


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## OrientalSlave

Kaz1985% said:


> OK so all would be blue,if only 1 parent carried lilac. I did think this, but just trying to learn it all. I understand the dominant colours, but was wondering if 2 dilute colours are present which dilute colour would they be, out of blue and lilac.


It's the chocolate gene that is carried, there is no single gene for lilac.


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## Kaz1985%

OrientalSlave said:


> It's the chocolate gene that is carried, there is no single gene for lilac.


How is that so when bsh cats are tested and they carry lilac?


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## OrientalSlave

Kaz1985% said:


> How is that so when bsh cats are tested and they carry lilac?


They do NOT carry lilac. Lilac is dilute chocolate, Dilute and chocolate are two SEPARATE genes. A blue can carry chocolate and such a blue can produce lilac offspring when it's mate has the appropriate genetics.

What test have you seen that says 'carries lilac'? Some of them are badly worded.


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## Kaz1985%

OrientalSlave said:


> They do NOT carry lilac. Lilac is dilute chocolate, Dilute and chocolate are two SEPARATE genes. A blue can carry chocolate and such a blue can produce lilac offspring when it's mate has the appropriate genetics.
> 
> What test have you seen that says 'carries lilac'? Some of them are badly worded.


Sorry I'm just going by what stud advertisements say, alot of bsh studs say carrying lilac. And breeders say they will be testing there kittens to see what they carry, ie lilac. So if you test kittens will they onky ever say if they are black of chocolate?? But blue always say blue it dosent say carrying black. I think I'm getting myself confused now


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## QOTN

Blue is not carrying black. Blue *is* black with two dilute genes added.

If you DNA test your cats to see if they can produce lilac kittens you have to discover if they have a chocolate gene *plus* a dilute gene. There are three basic colours, black, chocolate and cinnamon and it is possible to DNA test to find out exactly which genes the cats has. All the other colours and patterns etc are add-ons. Extra tests are required to find out which if any of these genes are also present. With recessive genes like dilute a test is often the only way to discover the range of possibilities.

However, a blue cat will only need a test for chocolate to see if it can produce lilac since we already know it has two dilute genes

With dominant genes such as agouti, a test can discover whether a cat has two agouti genes in which case it can only produce tabbies. If it carries non-agouti it can also produce self kittens.


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## OrientalSlave

Kaz1985% said:


> Sorry I'm just going by what stud advertisements say, alot of bsh studs say carrying lilac. And breeders say they will be testing there kittens to see what they carry, ie lilac. So if you test kittens will they onky ever say if they are black of chocolate?? But blue always say blue it dosent say carrying black. I think I'm getting myself confused now


Carrying lilac is an old fashioned and incorrect term.


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## lenanowa

Hi folks - I searched the forum but couldn't find what I was looking for.

Anyone knows if 2nd edition of Robinson's Genetics is any good? I found it second hand, significantly cheaper than the 4th edition. I obviously have nothing better to do during lockdown, lol

Edit: I feel like @spotty cats or @OrientalSlave might know?


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## OrientalSlave

Thanks, I wish i did, sorry I don't


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## QOTN

My Roy Robinson is the 2nd edition published in 1977. It is where I learnt my cat genetics. It is accurate but minus some of the more recent theories such as those relating to the different tabby patterns. I only saw the later version in serialised form in Our Cats when it was published after he died. It is a collaboration with several authors and I don't really remember what it was like. I would definitely recommend the one I have but you will have to ask others if I appear to have the right idea about cat genetics!


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## lenanowa

Thanks @QOTN - sounds like the 2nd edition should still give me a solid foundation and I found it for something like £15 vs £50 for the 4th edition. We'll see how it goes, I might be asking questions on this thread ^^


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## spotty cats

Years ago it was quite expensive and I was told not to bother as it's quite outdated and info can easily be found online for free. 
But if you can get it for an ok price and you like having actual books, then why not.


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## lenanowa

spotty cats said:


> Years ago it was quite expensive and I was told not to bother as it's quite outdated and info can easily be found online for free.
> But if you can get it for an ok price and you like having actual books, then why not.


Yep, definitely having a problem when it comes to owning too many books


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## tishtish

This is a wonderful post!

Okay, may I pose a question. If you a Blue colourpoint male (Ragdoll) and a Chocolate Tabby Colourpoint Female (Birman), would I be correct in saying (I many not be using the correct codes, but hope this makes sense)
Male = B, d/d, cs/cs, t/t
Female = b/b, D/d, cs/cs, T/t, wg/wg (I have deduced that the female is a dilute carrier because her mother was a blue-cream tortie tabby colourpoint)
Therefore, the offspring should be:
Dilution = 50% dilute and 50% dilute carriers
Colourpoint = 100% colourpoint
Tabby = 50% tabby
Coat colour = Males - Chocolate or Lilac, Females - Seal or Blue
Mitted/Gloves = 50% mitted/gloved (I know Birmans are different in this ascept, but I am basing this on a Ragoll colourpoint x Ragdoll mitted = 50% mitted offspring)

Obviously, this is based on the female not being a carrier for cinnamon. If she was (b/b1), I think that would give raise to the possibility of cinnamon and fawn males, but no change in the females?

Is any of that correct, or am I way off the mark? I'm finding this quite a fun game 
Also, I still don't really understand red. For example, if you have a blue-cream female with a chocolate male, how does red express in the kittens?


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## QOTN

I can make a few observations here but some of your assumptions are correct. By the way we use *A* or *a* to denote tabby so the boy is aa and the girl is not possible to tell whether she is Aa or AA without knowing the breed of her sire.

Apart from the genetics, why would you want to mix breeds? In GCCF they are not permitted outcrosses in either breed.

It is worth noting that, since the inheritance of genes is random, the proportions are unlikely to be achieved except over very large numbers.

These breeds do not have cinnamon in the GCCF but you need a cinnamon gene inherited from each parent to express the colour.

Why do you think there will be different colours in males and females? Unless the boy carries chocolate, all offspring will be seal or blue. If he carries chocolate either sex could also be chocolate or lilac.

A tortie girl can have red or non-red boys and tortie or self girls when mated to a non-red boy.


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## tishtish

QOTN said:


> I can make a few observations here but some of your assumptions are correct. By the way we use *A* or *a* to denote tabby so the boy is aa and the girl is not possible to tell whether she is Aa or AA without knowing the breed of her sire.
> 
> Apart from the genetics, why would you want to mix breeds? In GCCF they are not permitted outcrosses in either breed.
> 
> It is worth noting that, since the inheritance of genes is random, the proportions are unlikely to be achieved except over very large numbers.
> 
> These breeds do not have cinnamon in the GCCF but you need a cinnamon gene inherited from each parent to express the colour.
> 
> Why do you think there will be different colours in males and females? Unless the boy carries chocolate, all offspring will be seal or blue. If he carries chocolate either sex could also be chocolate or lilac.
> 
> A tortie girl can have red or non-red boys and tortie or self girls when mated to a non-red boy.


I'm not talking about real matings - I've being playing around with lots of combinations for fun. Bit of a geek I suppose! I thought, because of the mitting part and how that is different in Birmans, a cross mating would be an interesting question  but same question then for a colourpoint ragdoll x mitted ragdoll 

I thought there would be a difference in coat colour based on gender because I thought that is only expressed on the X chromosome, and therefore, boys only have one copy - both to pass on and to inherit. So have I misunderstood this?

So it terms of red - it is co dominant with black, right? So lets called red R (R = dom, r = recessive) and and black B (B = dom, b = recessive, i.e. chocolate, b1 = recessive, i,e, cinammon). I thought a black (or seal) phenotype would be expressed from BB, Bb or Bb1. But is it actually rBB. rBb (chocolate carrier), rBb1 (Cinammon carrier)? And torties came into play when it is like this...RBB, RBb (chocolate carrier) RBb1 (Cinammon carrier)?

Obviously the percentage I have used are not absolute, I was literally just using the simple method of showing gene inheritance that I learnt in school.


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## tishtish

Okay, may I've figured out the X Y inheritance thing, in terms of how the male could carrier chocolate. I still understand that the gene isn't expressed on the Y in the male, but I was assuming that the colour was expressed on seperate X in females, i.e. I thought a chocolate female would have X/X (b/b) but actually is she X/X (bb/bb)?

I am sorry though, I do not understand how the male offspring would be seal (or blue with dilution), if they are only inheriting the X from their mother, who, as chocolate, has a recessive genotype. 

I apologise if I am being stupid


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## QOTN

tishtish said:


> I'm not talking about real matings -
> I thought there would be a difference in coat colour based on gender because I thought that is only expressed on the X chromosome, and therefore, boys only have one copy - both to pass on and to inherit. So have I misunderstood this?


You are not the only person to have this idea. I don't really know where it comes from except as a confusion with the red gene.
There are three basic coat colours, black, chocolate and cinnamon. (By the way, cinnamon is actually bl indicating light brown.) They are at the same locus and are autosomal genes, nothing to do with male or female chromosomes.
Black is dominant to chocolate and cinnamon and chocolate is dominant to cinnamon. Each parent has two colour genes and will pass on one to every kitten. You can have a black with only one gene inherited from either parent although a black cat may have inherited two black genes, one from each parent. 
A chocolate may have two chocolate genes or one chocolate gene and one cinnamon gene.
A cinnamon must have a cinnamon gene from each parent.


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## QOTN

tishtish said:


> So it terms of red - it is co dominant with black, right? So lets called red R (R = dom, r = recessive) and and black B (B = dom, b = recessive, i.e. chocolate, b1 = recessive, i,e, cinammon). I thought a black (or seal) phenotype would be expressed from BB, Bb or Bb1. But is it actually rBB. rBb (chocolate carrier), rBb1 (Cinammon carrier)? And torties came into play when it is like this...RBB, RBb (chocolate carrier) RBb1 (Cinammon carrier)?


Red is the gene located on the female chromosome. It changes the colour of the basic colour genes and is a masking gene, so yes, the basic colours are still present and their inheritance still applies. (The red gene is actually written as *O* for orange.)
A red boy will pass on his red gene to all his female offspring so they will always be torties (or red when mated to a red or tortie girl.) His boys will be non-red because they have their female chromosome from their mother (unless she is red or tortie.)
A female has two female chromosomes so must have two red genes to be red. If she has only one, she is tortie.​


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## tishtish

QOTN said:


> You are not the only person to have this idea. I don't really know where it comes from except as a confusion with the red gene.
> There are three basic coat colours, black, chocolate and cinnamon. (By the way, cinnamon is actually bl indicating light brown.) They are at the same locus and are autosomal genes, nothing to do with male or female chromosomes.


Thank you so much, that was really clear and concise!

My confusion about this has definitely stemmed from pages with information like this on I've posted


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## OrientalSlave

The CFA have had this bolleaux on their website for years. It's totally false. Wikipedia is a trustworthy source as is Messybeast. And, of course the people here who understand these things.


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## tishtish

OrientalSlave said:


> The CFA have had this bolleaux on their website for years. It's totally false. Wikipedia is a trustworthy source as is Messybeast. And, of course the people here who understand these things.


Wow! It looks like such a trustworthy website. I'm shocked


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## Rufus15

I would say messybeast is a better resource than Wikipedia. There's some basic colour info on pawpeds academy too. 

CFA aren't great for keeping their website up to date, but they're a registry so its not really in their remit either


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## Emily Haupt

carly87 said:


> Never thought a forum post could make me blush! I'm glad it's been useful.


Hi hope you don't mind me posting ans asking you this. But this is my 8 week old, Hugo. His mum is a tabby and dad a long haired ginger tabby.. What is hugo please? X


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## spotty cats

Hugo is a seal point domestic, I hope as he's so young he's still with his mother.


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## Miikka Korhonen

Thanks for the very informatic opening!

Miikka


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## Zarababy436632

Im looking to become a first time cat owner, the women selling this cat is purposing them as half persian half british short hair, however, after looking at photos of the supposed parents, i dont think the mother looks 100% persian, she claims it doesnt have to registered? But i though purebred (pedigree)s had to be by law? Ive attached a link to images of my kitten and its parents. Can you confirm upon reflection the seller is being truthful?


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## lenanowa

No no no. The dad is a moggy (a blue bicolour BSH should have amber eyes, among other things), the mum looks nothing like a Persian, she's a long hair moggy.

Please refer to this this thread if looking for a pedigree kitten https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/finding-a-pedigree-cat.447723/

It's an adorable kitten but, sounds like this person is trying to con you, selling a moggy for a (I'm guessing) very inflated price. If you don't want a pedigree cat, go to a rescue rather than lining pockets of someone who's just in it to make some money. It's kitten season so lots of little ones looking for homes. Small, local rescues tend to be easier to deal with, but it all depends. If you do want a pedigree kitten, make sure to find a good, reputable breeder who is doing things for the right reasons (prices went crazy during lockdown but are going down now, finally)


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## gskinner123

I'm afraid they look nothing like Persians. However, does it matter? The kittens are not pedigree as they're a result of a cross between two different breeds. This makes them no breed at all. Not, of course, that there is anything at all wrong with non pedigree cats!


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## spotty cats

Don't support byb's, they don't even appear to come with any vet work done. 
Take the £400 fee this breeder is charging for her various litters and support a reputable rescue instead.


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## lahisketambola

hi if I have a golden tabby as a Dam and a Lilac as a Sire what is the possibilities of their kitten is it all will be tabby too


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## gskinner123

lahisketambola said:


> hi if I have a golden tabby as a Dam and a Lilac as a Sire what is the possibilities of their kitten is it all will be tabby too


If the female is homozygous for agouti (which means she has two tabby genes) then all of the kittens will be tabby. If she is heterozygous then statistically half the kittens will be tabby and half non tabby - but it is random 'meeting' of genes so all kittens could be tabby or all non tabby.

'Tabby' describes all four tabby patterns so the actual pattern of the kittens will be dictated by the patterns the parents are or mask themselves.


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## lahisketambola

gskinner123 said:


> If the female is homozygous for agouti (which means she has two tabby genes) then all of the kittens will be tabby. If she is heterozygous then statistically half the kittens will be tabby and half non tabby - but it is random 'meeting' of genes so all kittens could be tabby or all non tabby.
> 
> 'Tabby' describes all four tabby patterns so the actual pattern of the kittens will be dictated by the patterns the parents are or mask themselves.


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## lahisketambola

thank you sir such a good info


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## Sally_

Hi everyone
I have a female in golden chocolate (by12) colour possible carrier of lilac delution and I want to breed her with a chocolate boy (his mom is m chocolate and dad is lilac)
I wonder what is the expected colour of the kittens if I mate those two cats
Ps. the cats and their parents are British shorthair


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## OrientalSlave

I hope both cats are registered for breeding.

I've no idea if crossing a chocolate golden (BSH by 12) with a chocolate self (BSH b) is a really good idea or not. I've checked the GCCF registration policy and it looks to me like all kittens will be Supplementary register.

https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/BreedRegPols/BSH.RegPol.March2018.pdf?ver=2020-08-18-092532-600

However are both potential parents good examples of the breed? Have they been shown, if they have what was the judges report like?

As to colours, the male definitely carries dilute as he has a dilute parent. If the female does as well, ON AVERAGE you will get 25% chocolate not carrying dilute, 50% chocolate carrying dilute and 25% lilac.

Remember that ON AVERAGE you will get 50% girls & 50% boys, but plenty of us have had mostly or all girl litters, and/or mostly or all boy litters, and the same applies to the colours. You could get all chocolate.


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## gskinner123

As Orientalslave has said, if the chocolate golden is homozygous for agouti then all of the kittens will be agouti.

There are several key things to bear in mind. Mating a golden to a self you will lose virtually all of the wide banding (the polygenic effect that makes a golden tipped/shaded what it is, rather than a tabby) so your agouti kittens will exactly resemble tabbies of some form, be it ticked, spotted or classic or a mixture of these patterns within the litter depending upon what patterns the parents mask.

If you're registering GCCF you will have the choice of registering such kittens as goldens or as tabbies. It is very unlikely that the kittens will be showable (because of the lack of wide banding) as goldens so you may wish to register them as tabbies - if you do, they will be reference register and again unable to be shown (this may not be your aim but best to be aware). I have done this mating a number of times when starting a new line of goldens. I chose to register the kittens - almost all went as pets - phenotypically as they really bear no resemblance to a golden.

You will be mixing two diametrically opposing eye colours as selfs have copper eyes and goldens green eyes, each requiring as deep a colour as possible. Crossing the two 'ruins' eye colour for several generations.

The 'outcross' of a golden to a self should only be considered when you have a specific purpose in mind for improving the golden breed line (they have nothing to offer self breeding) as there's really little point otherwise.


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## OrientalSlave

gskinner123 said:


> As Orientalslave has said, if the chocolate golden is homozygous for agouti then all of the kittens will be agouti.
> <snip>.


I missed that - it was the dilute I got right!


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## catgirlforever

Hi all, my chocolate tortie Siamese was mated to my cinnamon ticked tabby oriental boy! All kittens are orientals. 3 black males and a black tortie girl. Is this possible?


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## Maurey

catgirlforever said:


> Hi all, my chocolate tortie Siamese was mated to my cinnamon ticked tabby oriental boy! All kittens are orientals. 3 black males and a black tortie girl. Is this possible?


No. Black is dominant over chocolate and cinnamon, it can’t be carried. Either one of the parents is misregistered, or the cinnamon isn’t the father.


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## QOTN

catgirlforever said:


> Hi all, my chocolate tortie Siamese was mated to my cinnamon ticked tabby oriental boy! All kittens are orientals. 3 black males and a black tortie girl. Is this possible?


What a shock for you. Are you sure your girl is chocolate? I only ask because I remember your cats come down from Mungo Gerry. A friend of mine now owns him since he has retired. When we first saw him I could not believe he was chocolate but he let me look at his paw pads which are not seal but his coat is the weirdest chocolate Siamese coat I have ever seen. Definitely more seal than chocolate. If you message me your girl's pedigree I could see if there might be a connection.


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