# My dog bit my niece..



## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

To cut a long story short...She came to see me last night...but as she was leaving my dog (staffy X) got out...I had just run to get something while she was at the back door...but my dog got out and darted to her and badly bit her leg. I couldn't do anything to stop it...as I reached them my dogs front teeth we still tugging at her thigh....I didn't see the whole thing but this morning her mum tells me her leg is in a bad way and I believe this was a full blown attack of my neice. Totally my fault and I take full responsibilty for it...and at the moment I feel like absolutely crap...I haven;t stopped shaking all morning thinking about it....and my neice is absoutely totally traumatised by it...her leg is bandaged and she;'s in a lot of pain and cant walk. 

The only option now is to get rid of the dog which I should have done when i first found her 18 or so months ago. (which I posted on here about) I dont know where to turn cos I dont want her to be put down....I don't want to just give her to anyone. I dont think she;s a safe dog now and although its tearing me to pieces right now...she has to go. 

Can someone please give me some info on the right direction to take...any organisations that would take this dog and not put her down? Im really desperate now.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

I believe dogs trust don't put down healthy dogs. They are quite selective as to what they take in though.

I don't want to be horrible as this is a tragic situation- but if you are not willing to have her, because she has bitten, why should someone else? 

Are you not willing to manage her? Work out why she bit, get a behaviourist possibly? Muzzle associate her so she can wear a muzzle in public places etc.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm very sorry to hear what has happened.

I think that if you can't keep her, you need to think very hard about whether passing her on would be a kindness to her. No rescue would rehome her with this history. I'm sorry there isn't a kind way to say that, it sounds like a heartbreaking situation for all concerned.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Very few rescues will be keen to take on a staffy/staffy cross that has bitten, especially one that's bitten a child.

Even fewer will manage to find such a dog a home. There are huge numbers of staffies and staffy crosses in rescues with great temperaments that can't find homes.

Sending her to a rescue might sound like an idyllic solution but in reality the likelihood of her finding a home will be very small.

She is your responsibility and if you're adamant that she has to go then I think you need to take responsibility and really think about what is the best thing for her, not the easiest thing for you.


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

Very very sad and traumatising but I agree with the others, you can't really just 'pass her on' as the issues will still be there. 

Maybe talk with your brother/sister and see how they feel about you keeping the dog and being extra vigilant in the future? I'm assuming they're not going to report it?

Really difficult when you love the dog, but it absolutely can't behave like this, it's too risky. If it had been a baby it probably would have been mauled.

My sympathies at the difficult decision you are facing xx


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

If you personally believe this was a ''full blown attack'' then the only solution is to have your dog put to sleep.

You cannot safely rehome her, it would be totally irresponsible to do so.


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

How horrible for all of you. I hope your niece recovers fully.

Do you know why she bit? Is this normal behaviour for her?

I'm afraid that the likelihood of you finding a rescue place for a staff x with human bite history is almost non-existent. Rescues are bursting at the seams with staffs and their crosses and most don't have any behavioral issues, yet still struggle to get homed.

If you can't take on her rehabilitation yourself, working with a qualified trainer/behaviorist, then I think your only practical option could well be euthanasia. You can't advertise her yourself because it's highly doubtful anyone 'nice' is going to whisk her away to live her days happily on a farm. She'll likely be snapped up by dog fighters.

Sorry I can't give you any better advice, it's just a terrible situation that you're in.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

I find it a bit hard to say get rid, because you do not know what has happened as you weren't there.

you were responsible (you are going to hate me agreeing with that) but I think you owe the dog the benefit of the doubt there and try and help your dog dealing with situations. same for your niece

I do believe this must be a very awkward situation


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I personally would get a behavourist in and see what he/she says. Is your dog normally aggressive?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

owns the beast said:


> I'm assuming they're not going to report it?


Afraid they may not have to be the ones reporting this, if the young girl was hospitalized, the hospital themselves may decide to report this to the authorities.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think you have no choice - if you feel she is not safe to keep then there is only one option and that is to put her to sleep. No rescue will risk rehoming her and either she will eventually be pts or she will languish in a kennel for the rest of her life. There is only one responsible choice.


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## Bluewiemy (Jan 5, 2013)

I had our last dog down for biting. She first attacked a neighbour who let themSelves into our garden, but the second time she was on a lead when the gardener stopped to talk to us. She was a terrier cross and as I have two young children and knowing she would, if accepted by a kennels, spend the rest of her days stressed out and miserable, decided that a peaceful end at the vets was the right thing to do. 

I would of never forgiven myself if she went on to harm anyone else, my children or another animal. It's not the right descicion in everyone's eyes and I might upset people by sharing my experience but I just wanted you to know your not alone in making this kind of descicion.


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

CockersIndie said:


> *I believe dogs trust don't put down healthy dogs*. They are quite selective as to what they take in though.
> 
> I don't want to be horrible as this is a tragic situation- but if you are not willing to have her, because she has bitten, why should someone else?
> 
> Are you not willing to manage her? Work out why she bit, get a behaviourist possibly? Muzzle associate her so she can wear a muzzle in public places etc.


I think dogs trust class this as physical and mental health so I think dog with a bite history or a history of agression would be classed as mentally unhealthy and still at risk of being pts.

OP if you really dont feel that you can keep her and that this was an unprovoked "full blown attack" then I dont think you can responsibly rehome her to someone else. There could be ways for you to manage this which would involve her not meeting strangers in the home by crate training and making sure she is muzzled whilst out on walks, you could work with a behaviourist to manage it but TBH there are plenty of dogs in rescue without a bite history trying to find a home so I dont think there would be many homes willing to take her on.

Im so sorry this has happened and that you are now in this position


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

That is guaranteed I would say- no rescue could responsibly rehome her. So depending on the organisation she's either going to sit in kennels for a bit and then be pts, or spend the rest of we life in a kennel. I'm sure if you've been to a rescue you'll realise kennels are horrendous places for any dog and many dogs are not able to be maintained in a kennel.

I am sorry this has happened though.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

What a horrible situation. I would make sure you get all the facts if you can, maybe consult a behaviourist. Then decide if you can manage the dog at home with proper safety precautions. If you cant, and alot of people who have children or busy households cant, then PTS might be your only option.
As everyone has said there are perfectly behaved dogs being PTS in shelters everyday...and rehoming through papers, etc might lead to others being bitten or a worse fate for the dog.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

You posted about your dog last August and it was a problem then. You were trying to rehome the dog then. You had so much advice then about exercise and training from people on here.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/254401-rehoming-dogs.html

Do you think you've tried everything? I'm sorry if this sounds out of turn and happy to be corrected if I am making wrong assumptions but if the problem was there way back in August last year and it's escalated as you predicted it would then, why did you not get a professional involved? It's very tragic, you can't expect to palm off a dog to a rescue to save you making the hardest decision of all but at the same time if you didn't witness the attack, there are lots of questions to be asked before you reach this decision not least what was suggested to you before - a behaviourist.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

CockersIndie said:


> I believe dogs trust don't put down healthy dogs. They are quite selective as to what they take in though.


I called DT sometime after I found her...they told me (if my memory serves) that they will only take in dogs from people who originally had them from the DT.



> I don't want to be horrible as this is a tragic situation- but if you are not willing to have her, because she has bitten, why should someone else?


be as horrible as you want I deserve it. I agree.... Im looking into having her put to sleep at the moment.



> Are you not willing to manage her? Work out why she bit, get a behaviourist possibly? Muzzle associate her so she can wear a muzzle in public places etc.


I've thought about a behaviourist , infact, thats one of the options im considering but its probaby going to be too expensive for me. I;'ve tried muzzles on her but I just cant get her to keep it on.


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

JeanGenie said:


> Afraid they may not have to be the ones reporting this, if the young girl was hospitalized, the hospital themselves may decide to report this to the authorities.


I did wonder that.....


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

martmart said:


> I called DT sometime after I found her...they told me (if my memory serves) that they will only take in dogs from people who originally had them from the DT.
> 
> be as horrible as you want I deserve it. I agree.... Im looking into having her put to sleep at the moment.
> 
> *I've thought about a behaviourist , infact, thats one of the options im considering but its probaby going to be too expensive for me. I;'ve tried muzzles on her but I just cant get her to keep it on*.


I hope you reconsider. you get a dog and take resposability and I be as blunt as I can and say that you probably should not own another dog after this because if you cant afford the care for a dog why have one in the first place?

Even if I couldnt afford beczzuse of recent happenings I would look for all possible rescources and try my best to give this dog the best outcome.

PTS for something you dont even know what has happened is a bit harsh and unfair to the dog


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Please Please dont try to rehome this dog unless its a rescue that will take the dog, sadly if you privately re-home you will never know if this dog will attack again, if youve had problems for along time then it looks like things have just got worse, and for peoples safety and to stop the chance of your dog ending up in the wrong hands i would go and firstly go see your vet asap to make sure there are no health problems also to muzzle your dog, 
Hope your niece is ok ,


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

martmart said:


> be as horrible as you want I deserve it. I agree.... Im looking into having her put to sleep at the moment.


No one is being horrible. Everyone here has provided a solution, probably not practical to you, in the sense you don't want to see your dog put to sleep.

Being as your currently own her, you are the one with responsibility for her.

It's tragic that your niece was hurt, it would be even more tragic, if you allowed this to happen again.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

Please do not rehome this dog to just anyone who will take her. The only people you should be talking to about taking her are responsible rescue organizations. 

If you are unwilling or unable to safely manage and train this dog, and no rescue will take her, then the only option left is humane euthanasia. 

I'm surprised this hasn't been reported TBH. 
I hope you have offered to pay the child's medical bills.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

owns the beast said:


> Maybe talk with your brother/sister and see how they feel about you keeping the dog and being extra vigilant in the future? I'm assuming they're not going to report it?


We've already spoken about it....I went to see her this morning to see if she was ok....but they weren't in...spoke later on the phone...she is understandibly very unhappy with it and is insisting I have the dog put down...she also knows how upset I am that I let this happen.



> Really difficult when you love the dog, but it absolutely can't behave like this, it's too risky. If it had been a baby it probably would have been mauled.
> 
> My sympathies at the difficult decision you are facing xx


thankyou.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> PTS for something you dont even know what has happened is a bit harsh and unfair to the dog


I disagree - there are worse things that can happen to a dog than pts. If the dog was found tied up, who knows what sort of a life it had before.



> be as horrible as you want I deserve it.


To the OP - please put aside the feeling that you deserve it. I haven't seen any previous threads, but from what you have said, you found the dog tied up so have no history of what she has lived through. It may be that someone more experienced could have done something, it may be that they couldn't have. Either way, that is not the issue now. The fact is that no rescue would take her on, she clearly has a problem and if you can afford it get an assessment from a behaviourist, although I suspect given the severity and circumstances of the injury the behaviourist is likely to say the same (you say the dog got out, so I assume you kept her away for a reason). But please don't take this a something you deserve or don't. It is the dog that is important and if they cannot cope with living as a pet, the kindest thing would be to pts.


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

Oh heck.. what a tough time you and your family must be facing.

Honestly, I think you need to give some serious consideration into having her put to sleep. If you found this dog, and don't know her background and has now attacked a child then I think it might be kinder to have her pts. You could work with behaviorists yourself to see if there is anything you can do and get their advice and help. However, I certainly wouldn't pass this dog onto another person. They don't know her, don't know what makes her tick... it's asking for trouble. You could try a reputable rescue who could try to work with her and rehabilitate her, but to be honest they have such a hard time homing staffys anyway, I think you'd struggle to get her a place now she has attacked someone.

IMO your options are to speak to a behaviorist and get some proper help, or make the very hard decision to have her put to sleep. 

I'm sorry you've got to go through this. You very kindly took a dog in, given her a great chance, and sadly it's not worked out. It's unfortunate, and maybe she's had a bad start in life before she was abandoned. You've done your best, but it might be time to let go.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Has your situation changed since you last posted about your problems with her?

If not, it doesnt sound like she has the greatest quality of life, and that euthanasia may be in her best interest.

If you dont have the time nor finances to invest in her, then she may be better off.

You took her in, you gave her a chance, but you were (and maybe still are) out of your depth with such a breed, which may have contributed to this incident.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. I wanted to reply individually but Im abit overwhelmed with emotion right at this minute especially since Im now coming to the painful decision to have her pts.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

You do realise that apart from having the dog put down you can be charged with having a dog dangerously out of control?

The sentencing guidelines are below.

You owe a duty of care to others, please exercise it.

Doglaw - Sentencing Guidelines for offences under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

If you feel PTS is the best option then don't feel guilty. You've done the best you can for the dog, but sometimes it just doesn't work out. Do what you think is best for the dog.


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

martmart said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I wanted to reply individually but Im abit overwhelmed with emotion right at this minute especially since Im now coming to the painful decision to have her pts.


You have my sympathy... It's a very tough decision, but IMO it's the right and responsible thing to do.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> You do realise that apart from having the dog put down you can be charged with having a dog dangerously out of control?
> 
> The sentencing guidelines are below.
> 
> ...


some people just love to rub salt in dont they.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

martmart said:


> some people just love to rub salt in dont they.


I don't think so. Think you have taken the post in the wrong way it was meant.

I have seen, nothing but sympathy from people, people who are concerned for you, your niece, and your dog.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out, the endless legal ramifications that can happen regarding a dog bite. Especially one, in your own words, was a ''full blown attack''.

I wish your niece a speedy recovery. And for what it's worth, I think you have reached the right decision.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

You asked for help in the right direction to take.

How would you feel if the positions were reversed and it was your child bitten, maybe disfigured for life by the dog owned by a relative (or stranger)?

You have a responsibility not only to the dog but to the wider community.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Bluewiemy said:


> I had our last dog down for biting. She first attacked a neighbour who let themSelves into our garden, but the second time she was on a lead when the gardener stopped to talk to us. She was a terrier cross and as I have two young children and knowing she would, if accepted by a kennels, spend the rest of her days stressed out and miserable, decided that a peaceful end at the vets was the right thing to do.
> 
> I would of never forgiven myself if she went on to harm anyone else, my children or another animal. It's not the right descicion in everyone's eyes and I might upset people by sharing my experience but I just wanted you to know your not alone in making this kind of descicion.


Im sorry you went through that and thanks for sharing. 
Im also finding it hard to forgive myself for whats happened


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

I feel so sorry for you as you took the dog in tried your best but it seems ingrained behaviour from maybe being ill treated before I think it would be best to have her pts too sorry to say this The other thing is if your sister reported this to the police (which you said she would not do ) then maybe she would if you dont put her to sleep If she did a judge would give an order for her to be pts anyway and you may then have to pay the court costs Very sad choice but I think its the right one


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> You asked for help in the right direction to take.
> 
> How would you feel if the positions were reversed and it was your child bitten, maybe disfigured for life by the dog owned by a relative (or stranger)?
> 
> You have a responsibility not only to the dog but to the wider community.


Not really helping though is it? Considering an accident has already happened. To little to late...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> Not really helping though is it? Considering an accident has already happened. To little to late...


I think it is very helpful to recommend that a dog that has already bitten be PTS to save OTHERS being bitten.

Too late for this girl but not too late for lots of others.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> Not really helping though is it? Considering an accident has already happened. To little to late...


Maybe not helping the OP feel better, but an important piece of info to help the OP make what is a difficult decision, albeit, IMO the only one. Unfortunately, in these situations, we have to put aside our own feelings and do the 'right' thing.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> You asked for help in the right direction to take.
> 
> How would you feel if the positions were reversed and it was your child bitten, maybe disfigured for life by the dog owned by a relative (or stranger)?
> 
> You have a responsibility not only to the dog but to the wider community.


I asked for help in taking the right direction...not a lecture on what I already know. I dont have kids of my own which is one of the reasons I decided to take her on in the first place...the way she reacted to me when I found her originally, there is not a chance in hell I would have taken her in if I'd had children. I live alone, and I do agree that I have a duty of care to the community, and its a duty I excercise at all times. the dog is always in the flat with me, I never take her to family and I take her for walks where there are very few people, I also keep her close by me on a short leash, and warn everyone and anyone that although I dont think she will bite, I don't want to take any risks by allowing you to stroke her. This is just an unfortunate accident and one I take full responsibility for and something Im wrapped up with total guilt about, and if it means a few weeks in prison for it, then so be it.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

martmart said:


> I asked for help in taking the right direction...not a lecture on what I already know. I dont have kids of my own which is one of the reasons I decided to take her on in the first place...the way she reacted to me when I found her originally, there is not a chance in hell I would have taken her in if I'd had children. I live alone, and I do agree that I have a duty of care to the community, and its a duty I excercise at all times. the dog is always in the flat with me, I never take her to family and I take her for walks where there are very few people, I also keep her close by me on a short leash, and warn everyone and anyone that although I dont think she will bite, I don't want to take any risks by allowing you to stroke her. This is just an unfortunate accident and one I take full responsibility for and something Im wrapped up with total guilt about, and if it means a few weeks in prison for it, then so be it.


I understand you dont always have children about, What about just crating her when there is some one about that could be put in danger? I mean this was an accident in my opinion. I just think PTS is a little over reacting.

The mum understandingly giving you pressure to pts but maybe you should wait until things calm down before you make a desicion


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> I think it is very helpful to recommend that a dog that has already bitten be PTS to save OTHERS being bitten.
> 
> Too late for this girl but not too late for lots of others.





rocco33 said:


> Maybe not helping the OP feel better, but an important piece of info to help the OP make what is a difficult decision, albeit, IMO the only one. Unfortunately, in these situations, we have to put aside our own feelings and do the 'right' thing.


No, it's pretty clear OP is already considering having her pts.

Just because a dog bites once doesn't its become impossible to train and will indefinitely bite again... In many cases a bite (maybe not as severe and thankfully not always children) happens before people realise the true extent of their dogs problems.

By what your suggesting, I should have put my dog down when he badly bit me? Rather then working through his problems and making him the safe and well trained dog he is today?

Wow great advice...


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

I think this lady out of the kindness of her heart took in a stray dog she found abandoned and tied to railings. She has obviously been trying real hard to cope since last August - almost 12 mnths - with looking after the dog. She obviously knew that she would have trouble getting the dog into a rescue, but she struggled on. It sounds as though she couldn't then and now afford to get a behavourist to help her with the dog. She has been floundering about for almost 12 mnths trying to socialize and exercise her dog. 

Her dog has badly bitten a child and she is mortified and blames herself for it. 

There is a sensitive way - which most folks have used on this thread but not all - in recommending that this lady has her dog PTS. 

It would have been nice, if just for once, some people had given someone the benefit of the doubt and been just a tad more sensitive.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

hushtalk said:


> I understand you dont always have children about, What about just crating her when there is some one about that could be put in danger? I mean this was an accident in my opinion. I just think PTS is a little over reacting.
> 
> The mum understandingly giving you pressure to pts but maybe you should wait until things calm down before you make a desicion


Thanks for that. Im basing my decision on the advice of the majority of the opinions in this thread. My mind is in total confusion mode at the moment though, totally all over the place and im sure many here know that feeling very well.

Maybe I should just wait. I have found a phone number for a local dog trainer and Im going to make a call soon to see if he can assess my dog...though Im worried about the cost of these things...I think its a small price to pay in the long run.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

do we say what some one wants to hear or are we here for advice?
it is a recent happening obviously everyone is in shock we don't know everything but in my opinion i think its best to wait until every one is calm including the mum and then decide.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> Just because a dog bites once doesn't its become impossible to train and will indefinitely bite again... In many cases a bite (maybe not as severe and thankfully not always children) happens before people realise the true extent of their dogs problems.
> 
> By what your suggesting, I should have put my dog down when he badly bit me? Rather then working through his problems and making him the safe and well trained dog he is today?


It's not that simple.

I am active in rescue and have dealt with my share of "problem" dogs. Of course there are plenty of former biters who have been successfully rehabilitated, but there are many more who for different reasons are not. A big factor is the dog, the inherent temperament, the triggers, bite scales etc. But another factor is the skill and knowledge of the owner and the resources that owner has.

Not all dogs can be saved, nor should they. There are far worse fates for a troubled dog than humane euthanasia. This save 'em all mentality often has much more to do with the rescuer ego than what is in the best interest of the dog. JMO.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm really sorry OP, I'd have to agree with the pts option...would you ever feel totally comfortable with the dog again. For what its worth I think Smokeybear got taken the wrong way. She doesn't sugar coat shite but I usually find her posts informative and helpful,if blunt


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> No, it's pretty clear OP is already considering having her pts.
> 
> Just because a dog bites once doesn't its become impossible to train and will indefinitely bite again... In many cases a bite (maybe not as severe and thankfully not always children) happens before people realise the true extent of their dogs problems.
> 
> ...


Perusing previous threads, the OP has been at their wits end with this dog for months, fearing one day in the future this dog would possibly, bite. Knowing they weren't equipped to deal with the dog, knowing they couldn't afford behaviourists, or any kind out 'outsider' intervention.
Sad thing is, it's happened now, a child has suffered, there are absolutely no guarantee's this won't happen again, in fact, the dogs behaviour will probably escalate from here on in.

The OP has been given the 'safest' advice, based on what they themselves have posted.


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

First of all I suggest you find out exactly what happened to trigger the dog to bite your niece before just assuming the dog is now aggressive
You can not simply pan her off on someone else, she is your responsibility and you owe it to her to find out what is wrong with her,
Why don't you ring a behaviourist and have a talk with them and see if they could suggest something......
How is she normally with your niece? Do they get on?. Is she wary of her? 
I don't know if you have children but if you did and they for instance attacked your niece / hit her etc....would you get shot of them?. Or would you try and resolve the problem and get o the root of it?
To many people look for a quick fix these days
Take the dog to a pet shop and try on a few muzzles and then teach her that its a good thing to have on.
You cold get a few child gates for the house for when visitors come over so she can still see them but not be at any risk of another incident happening, you could have your visitors give her treats through the gate and slowly re introduce her back into having people in the house.
It's a horrid thing that has happened but a dog will not bite just for the Sake of it, there must have been a reason, and I'm sure you would regret it if you didn't try your best to find out the root of the problem.
I'm not sure if you have any dog charities / homes near you but maybe you could call them and see if they can point you in the way of a good behaviourist......I know you said you can't really afford one....but you will pay to get her pts too, so maybe first you could spend that money on a behaviourist .

Of course at the end of the day it is your decision and all of us on hear can only voice our own opinions


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

martmart said:


> Thanks for that. Im basing my decision on the advice of the majority of the opinions in this thread. My mind is in total confusion mode at the moment though, totally all over the place and im sure many here know that feeling very well.
> 
> Maybe I should just wait. I have found a phone number for a local dog trainer and Im going to make a call soon to see if he can assess my dog...though Im worried about the cost of these things...I think its a small price to pay in the long run.


Is a behaviourist covered on your insurance?

I too think that for your own peace of mind a full assessment is the best thing that way you can make your decision with every piece of information available to you. Don't forget to let your family know that you are taking it very seriously (I know you are).

I know you and your family must want what's best for your niece, so I would suggest an assessment is also good for your nieces mental well being. If the reasons why the dog attack can be clearly explained to her it might help, especially if you do eventually choose to have your dog put to sleep.

To have the dog put to sleep without checking the dog for problems that may have caused this and a check to see if anything can be done could be detrimental to your nieces future mental well being, especially if she loves animals. If it helps suggest to your family this is why you are moving forward with a full assessment.

Take a few days for you all to recover and in the meantime ensure everything possible is done to prevent any future attacks.

Also I believe its a qualified behaviourist you need not a dog trainer.

I also want to express my utmost sympathy at your awful situation, you have done the very best you could for this dog and now have to face one of the toughest choices in life.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

martmart said:


> I've thought about a behaviourist , infact, thats one of the options im considering but its probaby going to be too expensive for me. I;'ve tried muzzles on her but I just cant get her to keep it on.


Is she insured? Many insurance policies cover behavioural issues up to a certain amount. Worth a look if so.

If you can't or won't keep her though then I personally think the best option is to have her put to sleep. There are too many dogs with no issues waiting in rescue for her to have a good chance of finding a good home even if you can find a rescue to take her.


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

A dog trainer will only train your dog....it's a behaviourist you need to get I the root of the problem.....training a dog to sit will not fix an underlying psychological problem if you get what I mean


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Debbierobb109 said:


> First of all I suggest you find out exactly what happened to trigger the dog to bite your niece before just assuming the dog is now aggressive
> You can not simply pan her off on someone else, she is your responsibility and you owe it to her to find out what is wrong with her,
> Why don't you ring a behaviourist and have a talk with them and see if they could suggest something......
> How is she normally with your niece? Do they get on?. Is she wary of her?
> ...


Thanks for that. I think you may have missed one of my previous posts while you were taking the time in typing your post out. Im just so confused at the moment. My nerves are way off the scale and I think it best to sleep on it before making any decisions... but I have a number now for a dog trainer who I think also deals with behaviour issues. It wont do any harm just to call them. If it is that its too expensive for regular visits, then I will have no choice really but to go for the pts option based on the valued input in this thread. Like i say tho, I'll have a good (or bad) nights sleep first.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

If I am brutally honest, I cannot see behaviourists being able to help in these circumstances.

This is a dog, of questioned type, a dog that has many issues, a dog without history, no background, no one actually knows the horrors she's been through.

Sometimes, animals do get broken, beyond repair


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

Yeah sorry just read back the thread.
Hopefully you will have a fresher head in the morning and the trainer/behaviourist will help,


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Debbierobb109 said:


> A dog trainer will only train your dog....it's a behaviourist you need to get I the root of the problem.....training a dog to sit will not fix an underlying psychological problem if you get what I mean


yea I know  I do think the place I have in mind also deals with behaviour issues too...this is something Im checking out first....if not I'll look for a good beaviourist.

thanks


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> If I am brutally honest, I cannot see behaviourists being able to help in these circumstances.
> 
> This is a dog, of questioned type, a dog that has many issues, a dog without history, no background, no one actually knows the horrors she's been through.
> 
> Sometimes, animals do get broken, beyond repair


Sad but true. I dont think it will do any harm to see if a behaviourist can assess her tho, i dont want to totally dismiss the idea. She and I have made this mistake once, I dont want to make this mistake again but I just want to give us both 1 more chance to see if anything can be done with her. If not, then I shall definately consider the pts option.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Has your situation changed since you last posted about your problems with her?
> 
> If not, it doesnt sound like she has the greatest quality of life, and that euthanasia may be in her best interest.
> 
> ...


*Any breed can bite.*

To the OP:

I haven't read the whole thread. I just want to say that as you didn't actually see what happened, is it not worth getting a trainer or behaviourist in - it may be that with the right help and using a muzzle in public, your dog could still lead a happy life.

I can only say what I think I would do - and the above is what I believe I would do.

I really feel for you - best wishes with whatever you decide.


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## martie (Feb 13, 2013)

As both a parent and a dog owner, i'd most probably also put the dog down if the attack was unprovoked. I believe not every dog is for everyone though and I wouldn't tell the OP not to have a dog again.
(of course it's a good idea to have a dog behaviourist, although i'd never walk a dog without a muzzle if it was unreliable around children)

OP, my thoughts are with you and I do believe that you've done what you thought was the best.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> *Any breed can bite.*


Im well aware of that.

My comment was more along the lines of exercise requirements, socialisation and mental stimulation needs, outlets for excess energy. A high energy, intelligent dog that needs something to do, stuck in a home where only basic needs -food, water etc -are being met, is hardly the best enviroment is it? In fact, its more likely to cause various behaviour issues.

Of course, if you wish to jump to conclusions....


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I feel I should add, is this trainer/behaviourist a member of any organisations? I.e. APDT or APBC?

There are some good trainers who aren't, but you MUST be extremely careful in this case, to get an accredited expert or run the risk of things getting worse. Some training methods around these days are dangerous to say the least. Anyone who mentions 'dominance' or starts talking about 'pack leaders' or uses tools such as sprays or shock collars is to be avoided at any cost.

Perhaps if we know what area you live in, one of us could recommend someone?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> You do realise that apart from having the dog put down you can be charged with having a dog dangerously out of control?
> 
> The sentencing guidelines are below.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I think the OP is currently so overwhelmed with guilt and misery at the prospect of having the dog PTS that she/he would not be able to take in anything she read. Give her/him some time to think before they start to memorise legal documents. It is so clear from what was said that OP is totally horrified and in shock.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> If I am brutally honest, I cannot see behaviourists being able to help in these circumstances.
> 
> This is a dog, of questioned type, a dog that has many issues, a dog without history, no background, no one actually knows the horrors she's been through.
> 
> Sometimes, animals do get broken, beyond repair


So true...same with horses, most of their 'vices' are man-made, to be honest. Sad for the animal, tragic in fact, but that's the way it is.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I'd definitely look into a behaviorist or other help, as a dog with a bite history IMO shouldn't mean immediately PTS

My ambull is a dog with a bite history, but is trained to where a muzzle happily in any situation i deem necessary and with a strict routine around people in and out of the house, is happy dog.

However he will never ever be rehomed from us, and should we for whatever reason not be able to keep him with us, I will put him to sleep.

Am glad you won't consider rehoming as that just isn't the right thing to do, but i would give her a chance with help and if you then deem you can't cope or she is too much of a danger then PTS is the right thing to do


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Im well aware of that.
> 
> My comment was more along the lines of exercise requirements, socialisation and mental stimulation needs, outlets for excess energy. A high energy, intelligent dog that needs something to do, stuck in a home where only basic needs -food, water etc -are being met, is hardly the best enviroment is it? In fact, its more likely to cause various behaviour issues.
> 
> Of course, if you wish to jump to conclusions....


I was not 'jumping to conclusions'.

I was simply going by what *you* wrote.

I suggest we agree to disagree rather than hijack such a sad and serious thread!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

ouesi said:


> It's not that simple.
> 
> I am active in rescue and have dealt with my share of "problem" dogs. Of course there are plenty of former biters who have been successfully rehabilitated, but there are many more who for different reasons are not. A big factor is the dog, the inherent temperament, the triggers, bite scales etc. But another factor is the skill and knowledge of the owner and the resources that owner has.
> 
> Not all dogs can be saved, nor should they. There are far worse fates for a troubled dog than humane euthanasia. This save 'em all mentality often has much more to do with the rescuer ego than what is in the best interest of the dog. JMO.


At no point did I even suggest 'this dog CAN be saved'. I'm well aware that it can be a hit and miss (ive worked with aggressive dogs myself) but does that mean you just shouldn't try? I don't believe you can save them all but I don't believe you should just give up on a dog before trying either...

No one knows the scenario inside out or knows exactly what happened... It was an accident which could have been prevented and was not an inevitable act.



JeanGenie said:


> Perusing previous threads, the OP has been at their wits end with this dog for months, fearing one day in the future this dog would possibly, bite. Knowing they weren't equipped to deal with the dog, knowing they couldn't afford behaviourists, or any kind out 'outsider' intervention.
> Sad thing is, it's happened now, a child has suffered, there are absolutely no guarantee's this won't happen again, in fact, the dogs behaviour will probably escalate from here on in.
> 
> The OP has been given the 'safest' advice, based on what they themselves have posted.


I was unaware of previous posts so can't comment. However, I was in exactly the same situation as you've just explained... I had a very aggressive dog on my hands, no knowledge or skill (he was my first owned dog), no money for a behaviourist to come in and help me, no support... Nothing. I knew he was dynamite waiting to explode, he went on to bite 3 people and he attacked me on lots of occasions yet I still managed to turn everything around on my own, so what could someone potentially achieve with some help..?

Crates and muzzles can all be introduced for safety and steps can be taken to minimise the chances of it ever happening again. You can learn a lot from things you do right but you can learn more from things that go wrong.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

martmart said:


> Thanks for that. I think you may have missed one of my previous posts while you were taking the time in typing your post out. Im just so confused at the moment. My nerves are way off the scale and I think it best to sleep on it before making any decisions... but I have a number now for a dog trainer who I think also deals with behaviour issues. It wont do any harm just to call them. If it is that its too expensive for regular visits, then I will have no choice really but to go for the pts option based on the valued input in this thread. Like i say tho, I'll have a good (or bad) nights sleep first.


I think that's a wise move. My nagging thing with this situation is that looking back on older threads you've made you've mentioned rehoming her several times so I wonder if you felt that it wasn't worth bring in a behaviourist if you felt she was a temporary dog anyway?

I think you need to talk to your vet. If you have insurance then they can assist with recommending someone if they think it's appropriate. Given that you were not there at the time of the attack, had no idea what happened make any decisions with care and use your judgement - we can all say what we think on here but she's your dog and in your ownership. If you decide to keep her then you have to commit to a plan of training with her, you can't leave it for another year. Whilst you've saved the dog when she was tied up, you also have to invest in her future. I'm teaching you to suck eggs I'm sure, you know all this and it must be a horrendous situation to be in.

There are lots of people on here with dogs who have been problematic for many reasons, so even your access to a qualified behaviourist is limited, you could do a lot with some support and an active plan in place.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> No one knows the scenario inside out or knows exactly what happened... It was an accident which could have been prevented and was not an inevitable act.


How can it be an accident which could have been prevented when you yourself says no one knows what happened? 

If she can get a good behaviourist in then great, but it needs to be a good one and finding one of those can be a minefield. Also, as has been pointed out, she may not have any choice in the matter If the parents of the girl want the dog pts and she also has the duty of care to consider.



> Not all dogs can be saved, nor should they. There are far worse fates for a troubled dog than humane euthanasia. This save 'em all mentality often has much more to do with the rescuer ego than what is in the best interest of the dog. JMO.


Completely agree with this.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I was not 'jumping to conclusions'.
> *
> I was simply going by what *you* wrote.
> *
> I suggest we agree to disagree rather than hijack such a sad and serious thread!


Yep, and i never wrote that this breed was any more likely to bite than any other. Nor did i imply or infer it.

The op is out of their depth with that breed. No shame in that. They did a wonderful thing; they took an abandoned and potentially abused dog, and offered them a home. Sadly its the wrong dog in the wrong home, with the wrong owner and now this situation has arose.

I wont agree to disagree when you are in the wrong.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> How can it be an accident which could have been prevented when you yourself says no one knows what happened?


Because the dog was shut away and had escaped, op didn't set the dog on the niece nor did op leave the dog and child together unattended. Could that be anything but an accident?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> By what your suggesting, I should have put my dog down when he badly bit me? Rather then working through his problems and making him the safe and well trained dog he is today?
> 
> Wow great advice...


Wow, have you thought of entering the Grand National?

You should, your ability to jump to conclusions is huge.

:ciappa:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

So sorry for you OP, it must be so traumatic to be in such a situation - even worse with a family member who you love too. It's so risky taking a dog off the street with absolutely no previous knowledge of how it was treated or what it's capabilities are - at least with rescue they have been assessed or are known somewhat what they are like around people but from the street you have no history whatsoever.

I doubt you have insurance otherwise you'd have likely been able to see a behaviourist before and as you're struggling financially I know how expensive cross breeds are to insure - T-Bo for instance is £30 pcm at two, while Flynn my Mal was only £17 with the same insurers and cover level at that age.

You need to think about what you are willing to do but also you need to respect the feeling of your sister/in law as to what she wants. I believe because of the change to the DDA if she wants to press for pts then your dog will possibly be taken and that done if you don't do it yourself - far worse for her IMO. Unprovoked or not a child has been seriously injured and that's the way a court will see it especially as they could also deem her 'type' which could escalate the problem.

Personally if it were my sisters dog and I knew it had issues, was kept away from visitors and had been taken in off the street in the first place I wouldn't let a child of mine even visit and if I did and that happened I would want it pts, because I knew the dog was a danger anyway and that can't be sugar coated because you obviously knew that too. It sounds like she was an accident waiting to happen by the way you have kept her away from people and in court that wouldn't do you any favours.

Getting a behaviourist is all well and good but you are not the only one being allowed whether to take that route or not, you need to speak to the other parties involved too.

Such an awful situation all round and I hope your neice recovers well without having a constant fear of dogs from now on.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> I was unaware of previous posts so can't comment. However, I was in exactly the same situation as you've just explained... I had a very aggressive dog on my hands, no knowledge or skill (he was my first owned dog), no money for a behaviourist to come in and help me, no support... Nothing. I knew he was dynamite waiting to explode, he went on to bite 3 people and he attacked me on lots of occasions yet I still managed to turn everything around on my own, so what could someone potentially achieve with some help..?
> 
> Crates and muzzles can all be introduced for safety and steps can be taken to minimise the chances of it ever happening again. You can learn a lot from things you do right but you can learn more from things that go wrong.


Afraid I am stepping away from this thread now, as little thought has been given by some to the victim of what happened, and the consequences of the attack, sometimes you do have to see, past the dog.

I am horrified some would sooner put the safety and wellbeing of a dog, before that of a child that has been badly mauled in what has been described as a ''full on attack''.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> Because the dog was shut away and had escaped, op didn't set the dog on the niece nor did op leave the dog and child together unattended. Could that be anything but an accident?


99.99% of all accidents are preventable, avoidable and forseeable; this one falls in this category.

The definition of an accident is an unplanned, undesired event which results in injury to a person.

End of.

If the dog was in a position to do this, then the owner has failed in management.

At some point in time this will recur.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> Because the dog was shut away and had escaped, op didn't set the dog on the niece nor did op leave the dog and child together unattended. Could that be anything but an accident?


That is exactly my point too. I find it very unfair that everyone chooses straight away to go over to pts.

Actually the OP did try and seperate the kid and child but he got himself out,.. unless the dog has bitten a hole through the door I don't see a reason why PTS. And yes I have a child here too.

i think the OP has 2 or 3 options.
-find ways to seperate the dog from visitors when needed. (crate etc, muzzle) as there are not many children around usually
-find professional help
-combination of both which should be done until behaviour has sorted.

I mean this dog is not going to be in contact with children at all times?


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> 99.99% of all accidents are preventable, avoidable and forseeable; this one falls in this category.
> 
> The definition of an accident is an unplanned, undesired event which results in injury to a person.
> 
> ...


Maybe the owner needs re-educating and maybe that has happened through this bad experience


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Malmum said:


> .
> 
> I doubt you have insurance otherwise you'd have likely been able to see a behaviourist before and as you're struggling financially I know how expensive cross breeds are to insure - T-Bo for instance is £30 pcm at two, while Flynn my Mal was only £17 with the same insurers and cover level at that age.
> 
> Such an awful situation all round and I hope your neice recovers well without having a constant fear of dogs from now on.


In the event of the dog being insured the first thing the owner has to do is inform the insurers as failure to do so would invalidate current and future insurance.

It would also probably mean that the dog would not be reinsured with that or most other companies (as they all talk to each other).


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> Afraid I am stepping away from this thread now, as little thought has been given by some to the victim of what happened, and the consequences of the attack, sometimes you do have to see, past the dog.
> 
> I am horrified some would sooner put the safety and wellbeing of a dog, before that of a child that has been badly mauled in what has been described as a ''full on attack''.


 Not the case at all. My point is that the dog being pts should not be the first consideration here, the child does not live with the dog or it would be a completely different situation and thread altogether.

I'm hardly suggesting op start socialising the dog around children etc. which really would be putting the dog before the health and safety of a human being, let alone a child.

I believe the dog should be assessed by someone who knows what they are doing before a decision is made. If that person then says that the dogs problems are to complex and it would be unsafe or unrealistic to keep this dog then I would fully support euthenaisia. I'm not against euthenaisia and I know full well that some dogs will need to be pts for the best interests of family, public or others.

I know op has a duty of care to the child and the child's family, it's hard to think about it in away in which the dogs life is owed to them though.

I'm trying to explain myself in a way that can't be taken out of context but I seem to be failing miserably...


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> 99.99% of all accidents are preventable, avoidable and forseeable; this one falls in this category.
> 
> The definition of an accident is an unplanned, undesired event which results in injury to a person.
> 
> ...


Please.... you don't know the situation. she is a strong dog and as soon as I opened the door, she pushed through so fast I was slow to react...I missed her collar and she was downstairs before i knew it. Might not have happened exactly the way I described...everything happened so quick but thats how I remember it. Im the one who screwed up...I hold my hands up to that and Im going to be paying the price for it..and yes I will definitely learn from this but please dont judge me...thats all I ask.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

hushtalk said:


> Maybe the owner needs re-educating and maybe that has happened through this bad experience


This has certainly been an experience and as a result Im going to seek help. Its just devastating that someone I love dearly had to get hurt for my screw up.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

sezeelson said:


> Not the case at all. My point is that the dog being pts should not be the first consideration here, the child does not live with the dog or it would be a completely different situation and thread altogether.
> 
> I'm hardly suggesting op start socialising the dog around children etc. which really would be putting the dog before the health and safety of a human being, let alone a child.
> 
> ...


You dont need to explain yourself, its all clear to me and I agree with everything you said and is what Im going to do.

Thanks


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

martie said:


> As both a parent and a dog owner, i'd most probably also put the dog down if the attack was unprovoked. I believe not every dog is for everyone though and I wouldn't tell the OP not to have a dog again.
> (of course it's a good idea to have a dog behaviourist, although i'd never walk a dog without a muzzle if it was unreliable around children)
> 
> OP, my thoughts are with you and I do believe that you've done what you thought was the best.


Thankyou. I also have a chihuahua btw...I've had him for 13 years. Once he;s gone tho, and if I have I dont think I will have a dog again. Im going to see what can be done with her...if the issues are too great and nothing can be done, Im having her pts


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

martmart said:


> You dont need to explain yourself, its all clear to me and I agree with everything you said and is what Im going to do.
> 
> Thanks


Please be aware that you may not have any choice.



> We've already spoken about it....I went to see her this morning to see if she was ok....but they weren't in...spoke later on the phone...she is understandibly very unhappy with it and is insisting I have the dog put down...


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

martmart, how is your niece now? Has she been seen by a doctor? Did she need stitches?

Please, when/if you discuss this with her, make sure she knows this is NOT her fault and that whatever consequences happen to the dog that she does not bear guilt about it. Kids have a funny way of interpreting things, and a very black/white thought process. Please remember that the child is going to need emotional support and guidance here too.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

ouesi said:


> martmart, how is your niece now? Has she been seen by a doctor? Did she need stitches?
> 
> Please, when/if you discuss this with her, make sure she knows this is NOT her fault and that whatever consequences happen to the dog that she does not bear guilt about it. Kids have a funny way of interpreting things, and a very black/white thought process. Please remember that the child is going to need emotional support and guidance here too.


That is exactly why I said in my post back on I think it was page 6 that a behaviourists assessment should be done so that the child in future has a full explanation of what the problem was and that the child isn't at fault in any way.

Original person should perhaps also be offering to pay for psychological help for the child.

Edit sorry page 5


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Please be aware that you may not have any choice.


i know...  but...

in the phone conversation she said if i was willing to have the dog put to sleep...but I told her I would be paying for the clothes regardless. She's angry with me, and I dont blame her but we're pretty close and have been for years. Im pretty sure she wouldn't do anything that she knows would destroy me. She knows Im worried about her daughter and sensed how upset I was on the phone...and still am. She's angry but she isn;t cruel


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

ouesi said:


> martmart, how is your niece now? Has she been seen by a doctor? Did she need stitches?


She went to the hospital...she didn;t have stitches as they said they dont stitch dogbites. She can't walk very well at the moment tho apparently. I havent actually seen her yet...but Im going to see her tomorrow...Im just not in the right state of mind at the moment.

Please, when/if you discuss this with her, make sure she knows this is NOT her fault and that whatever consequences happen to the dog that she does not bear guilt about it. Kids have a funny way of interpreting things, and a very black/white thought process. Please remember that the child is going to need emotional support and guidance here too.[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear...she's 16...still a child in law I know, but..regardless of her age, what you say mostly still applies. She knows full well she's not at fault and whatever happens to the dog is not because of her...i will make that clear to her. Infact...she was actually defending me to her mum saying it wasn;t my fault...it just happened.... which ofcourse is not true...its entirely my fault and if the dog is ultimately put to sleep its purely down to my stupidity and not her. She has a loving and supportive family.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Picklelily said:


> Original person should perhaps also be offering to pay for psychological help for the child.


I dont think that would be necessary but ofcourse, anything that she does need that requires money it will be paid for by me in one way or other.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> Not the case at all. My point is that the dog being pts should not be the first consideration here, the child does not live with the dog or it would be a completely different situation and thread altogether.
> 
> I know op has a duty of care to the child and the child's family, it's hard to think about it in away in which the dogs life is owed to them though.


The dog being put to sleep, should be absolutely the first consideration here.

Just because the child does not live with the dog, does not absolve the dogs behaviour at all, it's a bit like saying ''at least the child didn't loose her leg, but in any case, I am still keeping the dog''

The OP unfortunately does have a duty of care, more so to his niece, than the dog.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

The question is even if the dog was given another chance, surely because the trust has been broken the op will always be anxious while walking the dog and that anxiousness will be picked up by the dog making the dog anxious as well and possibly more likely too bite again. I could be wrong.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> The dog being put to sleep, should be absolutely the first consideration here.
> 
> Just because the child does not live with the dog, does not absolve the dogs behaviour at all, it's a bit like saying ''at least the child didn't loose her leg, but in any case, I am still keeping the dog''
> 
> The OP unfortunately does have a duty of care, more so to his niece, than the dog.


Couldn't disagree more, people get so focused on PTS with dogs over _sometimes_ even minor things.

The dog doesn't need PTS unless the OP feels he can't cope, and the dogs well being and safety of others is then at risk. If he can cope, gets help, muzzles the dog on walks etc whatever then why should she be PTS


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

pogo said:


> Couldn't disagree more, people get so focused on PTS with dogs over _sometimes_ even minor things.
> 
> The dog doesn't need PTS unless the OP feels he can't cope, and the dogs well being and safety of others is then at risk. If he can cope, gets help, muzzles the dog on walks etc whatever then why should she be PTS


It was hardly described as a 'minor' attack. It was described as being a ''full on attack''.

And while the victim is hardly a small child, gives me less reason, to make up excuses for the dog.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Firedog said:


> The question is even if the dog was given another chance, surely because the trust has been broken the op will always be anxious while walking the dog and that anxiousness will be picked up by the dog making the dog anxious as well and possibly more likely too bite again. I could be wrong.


no, your probably right...I do have some anxiety issues myself so maybe this is something thats added to the problem. However, I generally dont walk her where there are lots of people...not so much because of lack of trust for the dog, but a general lack of trust for other people, especially those with young children who don't seem to have any common sense when it come to their children running up to strange dogs. They dont even ask if the dog is safe and only make an effort to move their kids away when I signal them that I dont want kids near her. So...I usually take her out the way of people.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> It was hardly described as a 'minor' attack. It was described as being a ''full on attack''.
> 
> And while the victim is hardly a small child, gives me less reason, to make up excuses for the dog.


I didn't call this a minor incident it was a general statement

My ambull bit me in a very similar case just on the arm, and never in a million year would i have put him to sleep for it.

No still wouldn't PTS this dog without giving it a chance


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

pogo said:


> I didn't call this a minor incident it was a general statement
> 
> My ambull bit me in a very similar case just on the arm, and never in a million year would i have put him to sleep for it.
> 
> No still wouldn't PTS this dog without giving it a chance


That's your prerogative, your choice, your injury, your dog.

Maybe you would feel very differently, if your dog was involved in a ''full on attack'' of a child/minor.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> That's your prerogative, your choice, your injury, your dog.
> 
> Maybe you would feel very differently, if your dog was involved in a ''full on attack'' of a child/minor.


he has bit a child (well 16 year old) who thought it was clever to torment him. I know what it's like to have a very HA dog

No i wouldn't I don't believe in PTS dogs for biting without properly assessing the situation and ensuring not they can't get in that situation again


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

pogo said:


> he has bit a child (well 16 year old) who thought it was clever to torment him. I know what it's like to have a very HA dog
> 
> No i wouldn't I don't believe in PTS dogs for biting without properly assessing the situation and ensuring not they can't get in that situation again


Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I won't and never will defend the actions of a dog that savages/badly mauls a child, note I said savage/maul, not bite.

There is a vast difference between a bite and a mauling, in this case, you have a minor that was involved in what the OP believes to have been a ''full on attack'' of the minor. Which is hardly a bite.

I've perused previous threads of the OP's and sadly this incident comes as no surprise to me and I am shocked and saddened at the attitudes of some.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

JeanGenie said:


> It was hardly described as a 'minor' attack. It was described as being a ''full on attack''.
> 
> And while the victim is hardly a small child, gives me less reason, to make up excuses for the dog.


I agree with the last sentence completely now I know the age of the niece. It's not as if she were a small child winding the dog up and would appear the dog attacked for no reason, what reason could there be? I find it difficult enough living with a dog who is aggressive to my other dogs but a dog who is SO aggressive to humans - no way. It must be like treading on eggshells every time someone visits and for the dog to charge past you through a door way makes her sound all the more determined to attack a visitor. My dogs wouldn't dream of trying to charge past me even to greet someone if I'd ordered them to stay let alone attack someone.

I think as its been a year and sounds like you haven't made much progress with her its time to throw in the towel before it happens again. Accidents will happen, in nearly eight years of separating my girl she has managed an attack on two occasions due to a baby gate being left open and a dog wandering into her domain. The difference is its dogs she doesn't like, if it were humans and she done the same she wouldn't be here now.

I think this girl has very serious aggression issues and as she has now carried out a serious attack on someone allowed into your home she should not get a second chance. Its all very well your neice feeling sorry for the dog but how would you all feel if she manages to do it again? in just ten months its already happened and you could have ten years or more to make sure it doesnt happen again. What if a maintenance worker were at your home - I couldn't live like that since dogs are supposed to be a pleasure not a threat!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I won't and never will defend the actions of a dog that savages/badly mauls a child, note I said savage/maul, not bite.
> 
> ...


I've read no other threads from the OP and only going on what they have posted on this incident.

You clearly are one who will never give a dog a chance.

It depends on your definition of mauling, chance bit the girl and broke her hand, mauling or not? She was off her t*ts on god knows what drugs and her mum saw it all and knows it was her fault, as chance was on lead having a wee in MY private garden.

Would you have PTS chance for that as it certainly sounds like it.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> It was hardly described as a 'minor' attack. It was described as being a ''full on attack''.


I think put into perspective of the kinds of "full on attack" that I've seen in videos where people are being torn literally to shreds...etc, I think I would describe this attack as relatively minor...but to me, an attack is an attack and the ony thing I can hope for is that there are no lasting scars mentally or physically.



> And while the victim is hardly a small child, gives me less reason, to make up excuses for the dog.


You dont need to make excuses for the dog...its not your place to with all due respect....thats my job but I can offer no excuses for either myself or the dog. I screwed up plain and simple. The course of action now regarding the dogs future is still under consideration....but Im making no decisions until I've spoken to a professional.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

pogo said:


> I've read no other threads from the OP and only going on what they have posted on this incident.
> 
> You clearly are one who will never give a dog a chance.
> 
> ...


Absolutely I would have a dog put to sleep that broke someones hand, provocation or not.

If that offends you, not a lot I can do about that I am afraid.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> Absolutely I would have a dog put to sleep that broke someones hand, provocation or not.
> 
> If that offends you, not a lot I can do about that I am afraid.


Offended no I don't give a toss to put it bluntly what anyone else thinks.

I did ask you to be honest though!

I think we definitely should agree to disagree as I will never agree to put a dog down for biting or being HA so a risk of biting


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> Absolutely I would have a dog put to sleep that broke someones hand, provocation or not.
> 
> If that offends you, not a lot I can do about that I am afraid.


opinions will always differ and I dont want anything of this thread to cause a divide between people. I may not agree with your opinion but I do respect your right to your opinion as I do everyones here and all thoughts and opinions are valued and food for thought for myself.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

martmart said:


> opinions will always differ and I dont want anything of this thread to cause a divide between people. I may not agree with your opinion but I do respect your right to your opinion as I do everyones here and all thoughts and opinions are valued and food for thought for myself.


Don't worry, I never take anything personally!

I were asked a question and I answered it as honestly as I could


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## martie (Feb 13, 2013)

pogo said:


> Couldn't disagree more, people get so focused on PTS with dogs over _sometimes_ even minor things.
> 
> The dog doesn't need PTS unless the OP feels he can't cope, and the dogs well being and safety of others is then at risk. If he can cope, gets help, muzzles the dog on walks etc whatever then why should she be PTS


Do you know what worries me about this? All the cases I read about when dogs escape from kennels, abck gardens etc and injure someone. It might just take a moment when you don't shut a gate or a door properly and something can happen again.

I do see your point and if someone has the means and the determination to get tge dog assessed and work on rehabilitating it, it should be done but without that....


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

martie said:


> Do you know what worries me about this? All the cases I read about when dogs escape from kennels, abck gardens etc and injure someone. It might just take a moment when you don't shut a gate or a door properly and something can happen again.
> 
> I do see your point and if someone has the means and the determination to get tge dog assessed and work on rehabilitating it, it should be done but without that....


well i speak from someone who has experience Chance is a lot lot worse at home and if anyone was to walk into my house or garden and he was loose he will 100% bite them.

It's not that hard to get into a routine of management, he goes for a wee in the garden on lead if people either side are out in the garden. He is on lead behind a gate and slowly introduced to people who come in the house etc etc.

I cannot take the risk of leaving a gate or door open.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

pogo said:


> I will never agree to put a dog down for biting or being HA so a risk of biting


Sometimes it's not about what you want but about what's best for the dog.
The above is a very naive statement.

A dog who is so upset by humans that he/she is HA is not going to be a happy dog living in a human world. If such a dog does not improve with B-mod in who's interest is it to keep him/her alive? Certainly not the dog's.

BTW, I'm not referring to the OP's situation in the above statements. Just making general statements.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

martmart said:


> Please.... you don't know the situation. she is a strong dog and as soon as I opened the door, she pushed through so fast I was slow to react...I missed her collar and she was downstairs before i knew it. Might not have happened exactly the way I described...everything happened so quick but thats how I remember it. Im the one who screwed up...I hold my hands up to that and Im going to be paying the price for it..and yes I will definitely learn from this but please dont judge me...thats all I ask.


Martmart... I do totally and utterly sympathise, and I know for a fact that _most_ people on the Forum do sympathise and most of us do NOT judge you and point the finger. You are not a criminal and you do not need people telling you that you screwed up. You, in the kindness of yur heart, did what you thought was the best for this dog. We do not all consider ourselves to be perfect...I don't, but there are a couple on this site that do.... You took in, in the kindness of your loving heart, a dog who needed help. This has somehow backfired...I think you should have an early night and hopefully in the morning when your head has cleared, get some positive advice from professionals.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Sometimes it's not about what you want but about what's best for the dog.
> The above is a very naive statement.
> 
> A dog who is so upset by humans that he/she is HA is not going to be a happy dog living in a human world. If such a dog does not improve with B-mod in who's interest is it to keep him/her alive? Certainly not the dog's.
> ...


Naive no i am far from naive. Judgmental yes very.

It was also a general statement, there are always dogs who are an exception to any rule.

I have a dog is HA through a bad start in life, and we have little interaction with people in general and he is a happy dog.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your situation  Can only echo what people have said previously about you being very hard pushed to find a rescue space for your dog now that she has bitten as badly as you describe. Sadly most would turn you away, others may offer PTS. Haven't time to read all of this thread but there are _possibly_ smaller rescues that could help. The other responsible option is to rehome her to a friend or family member who knows her. Whether or not you feel you could pass on her and her behavioural baggage is another matter.

Our Scooter has bitten in the past (a jogger and 2 vets) and we've been fortunate in as much as no charges being pressed by the jogger and being able to keep him - if we couldn't keep him any longer and we couldn't home him to someone we knew, we would PTS both due to his bite history and him being an older dog with some health concerns. His bite history is the deciding factor in that decision as I couldn't personally pass on his problems.

Personally I would be speaking to family regarding their feelings on the dog and contacting behaviourists with experience in working with aggression problems. Keeping the dog and aiming to work on her behaviour is the best option in my opinion, but I would not discount euthanasia at this time.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Thorne said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation  Can only echo what people have said previously about you being very hard pushed to find a rescue space for your dog now that she has bitten as badly as you describe. Sadly most would turn you away, others may offer PTS. Haven't time to read all of this thread but there are _possibly_ smaller rescues that could help. The other responsible option is to rehome her to a friend or family member who knows her. Whether or not you feel you could pass on her and her behavioural baggage is another matter.
> 
> Our Scooter has bitten in the past (a jogger and 2 vets) and we've been fortunate in as much as no charges being pressed by the jogger and being able to keep him - if we couldn't keep him any longer and we couldn't home him to someone we knew, we would PTS both due to his bite history and him being an older dog with some health concerns. His bite history is the deciding factor in that decision as I couldn't personally pass on his problems.
> 
> Personally I would be speaking to family regarding their feelings on the dog and contacting behaviourists with experience in working with aggression problems. Keeping the dog and aiming to work on her behaviour is the best option in my opinion, but I would not discount euthanasia at this time.


thanks for that. this is exactly whats been discussed in the thread and is the direction Im going to be taking. I'll be sorting things out with my niece and her mum tomorrow, then calling a pro which I have a number for and then take things from there. ... thanks again


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Please be aware that most reputable behaviourists will not see your dog except via vet referral, in order that any underlying medical condition can be ruled out.

Most (not all) will belong to one or more professional bodies

APBC
CAPBT
UKRCB


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Calvine said:


> Martmart... I do totally and utterly sympathise, and I know for a fact that _most_ people on the Forum do sympathise and most of us do NOT judge you and point the finger. You are not a criminal and you do not need people telling you that you screwed up. You, in the kindness of yur heart, did what you thought was the best for this dog. We do not all consider ourselves to be perfect...I don't, but there are a couple on this site that do.... You took in, in the kindness of your loving heart, a dog who needed help. This has somehow backfired...I think you should have an early night and hopefully in the morning when your head has cleared, get some positive advice from professionals.


Thankyou.  An early night is definitely on the menu tonight.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Well i think that everyone will hopefully agree, that regardless of our own personal feeling and attitude to a dog whos bitten, that your niece has a quick full recovery and that the best is done for everyone involved, including your dog. 

And that is my final say in this thread now.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Please be aware that most reputable behaviourists will not see your dog except via vet referral, in order that any underlying medical condition can be ruled out.
> 
> Most (not all) will belong to one or more professional bodies
> 
> ...


I didn't know that most only see dogs via referrals. I have reason to believe he is very reputable and does deal with dog issues as well as training but Im not 100% sure. I'll find out more tomorrow. I'll post an update when I know for sure.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

pogo said:


> Well i think that everyone will hopefully agree, that regardless of our own personal feeling and attitude to a dog whos bitten, that your niece has a quick full recovery and that the best is done for everyone involved, including your dog.
> 
> And that is my final say in this thread now.


Thanks for your valuable input and your kind words


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Yep, and i never wrote that this breed was any more likely to bite than any other. Nor did i imply or infer it.
> 
> The op is out of their depth with that breed. No shame in that. They did a wonderful thing; they took an abandoned and potentially abused dog, and offered them a home. Sadly its the wrong dog in the wrong home, with the wrong owner and now this situation has arose.
> 
> *I wont agree to disagree when you are in the wrong*.


In your opinion.

This thread is not about me nor about you.

Time to move on. Presumably we can agree on *that*?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

OP sounds like you have a very sweet niece 

Has your girl been checked by a vet to rule out any underlying physical issues? e.g. thyroid tests etc?

If this hasn't been done, it might be somewhere to start?

Also, I know it's been said before but PLEASE make sure that the trainer only uses positive methods! Walk away from anyone who talks about 'dominance' or 'alpha' or who admires Cesar Milan!

I really feel for you, please let us know what happens?


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

last thing,.. even without professionals,.. when visitors are with you,.. muzzle on.

unless your dog can escape from that most of the danger is gone. same for crating.

So why PTS?

if you can in mean while look for pro help its even better. I think many people need to step away from the easy solution to PTS 

You have a dog so you have the responsibility and I respect the OP a lot for considering further help at the least. this is a hard time for the whole family


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

hushtalk said:


> last thing,.. even without professionals,.. when visitors are with you,.. muzzle on.
> 
> unless your dog can escape from that most of the danger is gone. same for crating.
> 
> ...


I don't think that PTS is the easy solution at all, but can for some dogs be the best, but most difficult thing to do.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

None of the options are easy ones, are they?

If the OP keeps his girl, and dedicates himself to managing her and keeping her muzzled and/or apart from people, that will take a lot of hard work and dedication. PTS would be heartbreaking, I'm sure. There are no 'easy' options here, I don't think.

I remember on another forum there was a very nice woman who had rescued a dog that she really loved. He had many, many issues and was an extremely big and powerful dog. He always had to be on a lead and muzzled and inviting people to her home involved a lot of hard work and careful, careful management. 

At times this woman sounded so terribly stressed, I really felt for her. But she loved her dog 

I think the OP has to be brutally honest with himself/herself about what he/she can cope with in the years to come.

OP I really do feel for you, and I wish you all the best in this ghastly situation in which you and your girl find yourselves. I also hope your niece is doing OK


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

hushtalk said:


> So why PTS?
> 
> if you can in mean while look for pro help its even better. I think many people need to step away from the easy solution to PTS


Doesn;t look like I have much choice now...my nephew called earlier to say his mum is going to report my dog to the police. So..looks like smokeybear was right after all. Also looks like Im going to be losing her and doing time in prison. I feel sick at the moment, not eaten all day and this has just made it worse.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

martmart said:


> Doesn;t look like I have much choice now...my nephew called earlier to say his mum is going to report my dog to the police. So..looks like smokeybear was right after all. Also looks like Im going to be losing her and doing time in prison. I feel sick at the moment, not eaten all day and this has just made it worse.


Oh goodness, what an awful situation martmart  My heart goes out to you, your dog and everyone involved in this situation.

If thats the case, I would make an appointment at my vets asap and get her PTS asap, peacefully with you by her side, opposed to being dragged off by strangers. What a sad situation 

xxx

ETA Thats just what I'd do, not saying its what you should do.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

martmart said:


> Doesn;t look like I have much choice now...my nephew called earlier to say his mum is going to report my dog to the police. So..looks like smokeybear was right after all. Also looks like Im going to be losing her and doing time in prison. I feel sick at the moment, not eaten all day and this has just made it worse.


martmart, this has obviously been an horrific day for you. I think you probably know where this will end for your dog, and it's heartbreaking, because you tried to help her. Sometimes whatever you do can't fix it, you can't beat yourself up about it. Where the police are concerned, your response is what matters - if you refused to accept responsibility, they would take it further. 
Please, get some sleep and face it tomorrow, it won't be easy, but I think you are probably too tired and stressed to think it through at the moment x


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

So sorry martmart. Spend some cuddle time with your dog and see what tomorrow brings. Try to talk it over with your family, you must be exhausted.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

I just hope it's a matter of Anger and upset. Sleep it over tomorrow is Another day. I wish you all the best


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

While a dreadful predicament to be in, expected really.

She after all is your sister whose child has been hurt. I think anyone would feel exactly the same in those circumstances, and while you feel this is massively unfair, please do, try and see things from your sisters point of view as a parent looking out for her own, and others.

Sorry.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Pupcakes said:


> Oh goodness, what an awful situation martmart  My heart goes out to you, your dog and everyone involved in this situation.
> 
> If thats the case, I would make an appointment at my vets asap and get her PTS asap, peacefully with you by her side, opposed to being dragged off by strangers. What a sad situation
> 
> ...


thanks. Im just going to try get some sleep and hope I dont wake up (a situation I've been through many times but unfortunately I always wake up)...see what happens tomorrow.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Ghastly situation 

Let's hope that possibly tomorrow your family may feel a bit differently. Take it one day at a time, that's all you can do right now. Sending you all best wishes.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

myshkin said:


> martmart, this has obviously been an horrific day for you. I think you probably know where this will end for your dog, and it's heartbreaking, because you tried to help her. Sometimes whatever you do can't fix it, you can't beat yourself up about it. Where the police are concerned, your response is what matters -* if you refused to accept responsibility, they would take it further. *
> Please, get some sleep and face it tomorrow, it won't be easy, but I think you are probably too tired and stressed to think it through at the moment x


That won't happen... my niece was in my care for the half hour or so she was with me, I failed and would never even attempt to refuse to take responsibility. Im going to make a few videos of her I think, before the inevitable and start saying my goodbyes to her.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> I was unaware of previous posts so can't comment. However, I was in exactly the same situation as you've just explained... I had a very aggressive dog on my hands, no knowledge or skill (he was my first owned dog), no money for a behaviourist to come in and help me, no support... Nothing. I knew he was dynamite waiting to explode, he went on to bite 3 people and he attacked me on lots of occasions yet I still managed to turn everything around on my own, so what could someone potentially achieve with some help..?
> 
> Crates and muzzles can all be introduced for safety and steps can be taken to minimise the chances of it ever happening again. You can learn a lot from things you do right but you can learn more from things that go wrong.


Do you know, I think that is one of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard. Disgraceful to keep a dog that has bitten like that.



martmart said:


> Doesn;t look like I have much choice now...my nephew called earlier to say his mum is going to report my dog to the police. So..looks like smokeybear was right after all. Also looks like Im going to be losing her and doing time in prison. I feel sick at the moment, not eaten all day and this has just made it worse.


You will not go to prison. Smokeybear was more than mean to bring that up. I doubt if anyone has ever gone to prison for a dog attack and certainly not for an accident like yours.
I still think that, whatever the outcome, the dog should be put to sleep tomorrow - but I really would not be afraid that you are going to be arrested.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> So sorry martmart. Spend some cuddle time with your dog and see what tomorrow brings. Try to talk it over with your family, you must be exhausted.


actually...I find it hard to look at her at the moment without bursting into tears. and yea Im totally drained. Thanks for your thoughts


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

hushtalk said:


> I just hope it's a matter of Anger and upset. Sleep it over tomorrow is Another day. I wish you all the best


 Im kind of hoping the same thing. I doubt I'll sleep very well tonight but thanks for the kind words


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> You will not go to prison. Smokeybear was more than mean to bring that up. I doubt if anyone has ever gone to prison for a dog attack and certainly not for an accident like yours.
> I still think that, whatever the outcome, the dog should be put to sleep tomorrow - but I really would not be afraid that you are going to be arrested.


Excuse me, before you get on your soapbox that is NOT what I said, I merely posted the sentencing guidelines from the DogLaw site :rolleyes5:

So before you accuse me of being "more than mean" get your facts straight lady! :rolleyes5:

Secondly people HAVE gone to prison when their dog has attacked other people.

Thirdly, for your benefit I will post what I did earlier which was a link to the sentencing guidelines.

Doglaw - Sentencing Guidelines for offences under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991

And posting FACTS is not being mean it is being honest, pragmatic and realistic!


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> While a dreadful predicament to be in, expected really.
> 
> She after all is your sister whose child has been hurt. I think anyone would feel exactly the same in those circumstances, and while you feel this is massively unfair, please do, try and see things from your sisters point of view as a parent looking out for her own, and others.
> 
> Sorry.


oh I do see things from her perspective. I'd be upset too if it were my daughter. Well...as her uncle and the one responsible for her being hurt...Im extremely upset...she is in my thoughts as much as the fear of losing my dog.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Excuse me, before you get on your soapbox that is NOT what I said, I merely posted the sentencing guidelines from the DogLaw site :rolleyes5:
> 
> So before you accuse me of being "more than mean" get your facts straight lady! :rolleyes5:
> 
> ...


Sorry...that was my fault. The way I wrote it implied that it was you who suggested I woud go to prison..when I said you were right...I meant in terms of my nieces mum reporting...atleast I think it was you....but whatever...my apologies for that.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

martmart said:


> oh I do see things from her perspective. I'd be upset too if it were my daughter. Well...as her uncle and the one responsible for her being hurt...Im extremely upset...she is in my thoughts as much as the fear of losing my dog.


Martmart, any caring person would be totally upset and I really do appreciate you feel terribly guilty and hurt by the actions of your dog. To be honest, I'm amazed things have gone on so long without incident before your niece got hurt

You did a kind and lovely thing, have gone above and beyond what some people would have and muddled on with what sounds like a terribly damaged dog.

Take some solace at least in the fact if the worst does have to comes to the worst, in almost a year she was shown love, affection and all the things that were probably not 'normal' to her, you could not have done, more than you did.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Ghastly situation
> 
> Let's hope that possibly tomorrow your family may feel a bit differently. Take it one day at a time, that's all you can do right now. Sending you all best wishes.


Thankyou. Your wishes warmly received.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> Martmart, any caring person would be totally upset and I really do appreciate you feel terribly guilty and hurt by the actions of your dog. To be honest, I'm amazed things have gone on so long without incident before your niece got hurt
> 
> You did a kind and lovely thing, have gone above and beyond what some people would have and muddled on with what sounds like a terribly damaged dog.
> 
> Take some solace at least in the fact if the worst does have to comes to the worst, in almost a year she was shown love, affection and all the things that were probably not 'normal' to her, you could not have done, more than you did.


 Words of comfort dont really bring much comfort as Im sure you know yourself....nothing that people say can make things easier....but I really do appreciate the thoughts...thankyou!!


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

martmart said:


> Words of comfort dont really bring much comfort as Im sure you know yourself....nothing that people say can make things easier....but I really do appreciate the thoughts...thankyou!!


I understand. It's a terrible, unfortunate, situation.

I stand by what I said, you can't have done more than you did, so please do try not to be hard on yourself, however terrible you feel. I'm sure your family are just as worried for you, as they are your niece.

Your sister rightly so is angry, probably not even at you, just at the circumstances, obviously I don't know your sister and cannot say what frame of mind she will wake up in, in the morning I sincerely hope you do not get into any trouble over this, that would be tragic when you have accepted total responsibility for the actions of your dog

I hope tomorrow is a better, much clearer day for you and wish your niece a very speedy recovery.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I totally agree that you have given a sad and lost dog a wonderful year that she would not otherwise have had. I'm very, very sorry that it has ended this way.

I hope that you can give your dog a peaceful passing. At least she will be with someone who loves her which is far more than she had a year ago. I don't know your beliefs in the matter but I think you will find her happy and healed and waiting for you, one day.

I don't believe that you have any choice in the matter. 

It's NOT your fault, all you did was take in a lost dog. However the circumstances are such that she has to be put to sleep. You cannot keep her when your - understandably distressed - family are unable to cope with any other decision. She has bitten badly and she will do so again without heroic measures to stop her. You cannot risk prosecution, yourself.

Please don't feel badly about this. You did nothing wrong. It's not your fault that the dog has such serious problems. You gave her a good life and you need to give her a good passing. I'm so terribly sorry.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

So sorry to hear this. You gave her some love and kindness in her life at least...who knows why she was left tied to railings? Maybe she had done the same before and the previous owner did not have the heart (or the money?) to have her put to sleep.


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## BeauNoir (Sep 16, 2012)

I can't say I agree with the outcome based on the limited information given. (Age of child? Is she well trained on how to behave around dogs? Has she ever exhibited a dislike for your dog or any dogs for that matter? Could she potentially hurt the dog in some way, such as kicking it when you were not looking for instance? Perhaps she tried to pick up the dog or some other behaviour that you may have told her not to but she wanted to cuddle, etc the dog?)

Children test boundaries, often children who are not properly socialised with animals (because kids need far training more than dogs do and parents rarely give it!) will hurt them in some way to test the limit, as they do with other children. Even the ones who are well socialised with animals can do it. We have all seen it, carrying on squeezing the cat until it yelps, starting off patting the dog then getting harder, etc.

If none of these could have happened at all and you are 100% sure of that, then this was the right decision. If you have some doubt about the innocence of your niece, then I can't honestly say I agree.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

BeauNoir said:


> I can't say I agree with the outcome based on the limited information given. (Age of child? Is she well trained on how to behave around dogs? Has she ever exhibited a dislike for your dog or any dogs for that matter? Could she potentially hurt the dog in some way, such as kicking it when you were not looking for instance? Perhaps she tried to pick up the dog or some other behaviour that you may have told her not to but she wanted to cuddle, etc the dog?)
> 
> Children test boundaries, often children who are not properly socialised with animals (because kids need far training more than dogs do and parents rarely give it!) will hurt them in some way to test the limit, as they do with other children. Even the ones who are well socialised with animals can do it. We have all seen it, carrying on squeezing the cat until it yelps, starting off patting the dog then getting harder, etc.
> 
> If none of these could have happened at all and you are 100% sure of that, then this was the right decision. If you have some doubt about the innocence of your niece, then I can't honestly say I agree.


She is 16.


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## BeauNoir (Sep 16, 2012)

Dogless said:


> She is 16.


I'll be honest, that still doesn't change my opinion, although yes, it does make most of the scenarios less likely. When I volunteered for a rescue we had a dog returned because the 17 year old son decided to hit it because... wait for it... he didn't want a greyhound that colour (yeah, I could have swung for him at that point, he was so lucky he wasn't there when they returned her). The son didn't have any behavioural problems, he was just a teenager that liked to get his own way. We had a dog killed within its first month in a home because the 15 year old daughter took him out for a walk and didn't bother taking a lead, dog spotted squirrel, ran into road, car hit the dog full on at about 40 and he died.

As I said, we do have limited information because the original poster was not there and again, if as I said she completely trusts her nieces story, then it is completely the right decision. I don't disagree with the decision, I just don't feel I can agree with it completely based on the limited information we have.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Sorry to hear this happened, what a horrible situation or everyone. I hope your Neice is recovering well.

I havnt read through all the comments, but if it were me I would have the dog put down. Rescues are full of perfectly healthy, happy, friendly staffies and to me it wouldn't be fair to take up a rescue place with anything less than 100% temperament. In an ideal world, the dog would go to someone and never be near kids, but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. Could you forgive yourself if the dog went on to bite someone else?

But either way it's up to you, best of luck whatever you choose.


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

You probably gave her the best year of her life who knows what went on before you took her.
Its going to be hard to say goodbye but better your with her when she goes than a stranger 
Understand you feel upset and guilty and no one knows what triggered this attack You did all you could for her no one can ask for more than that
Spend some time giving her cuddles taking a video and some pics may help you to say goodbye
My thoughts are with you and your family too everyone must be upset over this I think


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## cheekymonkey68 (Nov 18, 2012)

Hi Martmart, wondering how you are doing today? 

I know you will be feeling numb, but wanted you to know Im thinking of you.

I'd call your sister and ask if she has reported it to the Police. If that is the case then pts may be necessary.

If not discuss your next course of action. ie vets first to see if there are any underlying issues with dog, then a behaviourist. 


When my dog bit two people within a month of rehoming him, I did the vets, then I took him to behavioural modification kennels for 3 weeks. it cost approx £1500.
I was exceptionally lucky that both bites were serious nips and not reported to the police. 
My dog is fine now, but still needs managing.

I used to volunteer in rescue and had a staffie accidentally run into my thigh with his mouth open.(he wasnt looking) He did not bite me ....and I need to say the injury I sustained from just one of his canines touching my leg was incredible the bruising was unbelievable and spread the length of my thigh, and the dent from his tooth just impacting my leg bled from inside even tho the skin was not broken! I still have a scar about the size of drawing pin 1 year later from that canine. So If you dog did a full on intentional bite on your niece she is lucky to be walking, it is not something that most people would be able to put down to a one off accident and walk away from regardless if they are your relation, which I understand makes it all the worse for you.

Im so sorry for your situation, clearly you are only trying to do the best thing for all concerned. If you need help and support whatever the out come I'll be here for you, as I know how terrifying the next couple of days will be for you. Marion x x


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

I know I am new to this part of the forum...and certainly have no experience that is worth noting. But whilst I am overwhelmed by the benevolence of some relative strangers on here...I am shocked at a couple of the crude remarks!! It is not pragmatic to give information or opinions in so a blunt, harsh way to someone who is so torn apart!!!

Martmart...I would suggest ringing your niece's family and explain the legal implications of a call to the police. I don't know the law but I would not expect any form of prison sentence, however.

I do not envy you making this decision...if it is still yours to make. You gave a dog a second chance in life that wouldn't normally have been given that chance! You have done your best for this dog no matter what the outcome. 

I hope your niece recovers quickly and your family heals. My thoughts and prayers are with you at this incredibly stressful time.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

BeauNoir said:


> I can't say I agree with the outcome based on the limited information given. (Age of child? Is she well trained on how to behave around dogs? Has she ever exhibited a dislike for your dog or any dogs for that matter? Could she potentially hurt the dog in some way, such as kicking it when you were not looking for instance? Perhaps she tried to pick up the dog or some other behaviour that you may have told her not to but she wanted to cuddle, etc the dog?)
> 
> Children test boundaries, often children who are not properly socialised with animals (because kids need far training more than dogs do and parents rarely give it!) will hurt them in some way to test the limit, as they do with other children. Even the ones who are well socialised with animals can do it. We have all seen it, carrying on squeezing the cat until it yelps, starting off patting the dog then getting harder, etc.
> 
> If none of these could have happened at all and you are 100% sure of that, then this was the right decision. If you have some doubt about the innocence of your niece, then I can't honestly say I agree.


No..my niece isn;t to blame...there were no bounderies to test with the dog cos she was out of the way. The incident occurred because I was careless in opening the door...the dog got out and i was too slow to respond. My neice did nothing wrong..it was me.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

cheekymonkey68 said:


> Hi Martmart, wondering how you are doing today?
> 
> I know you will be feeling numb, but wanted you to know Im thinking of you.
> 
> ...


Hi Marion.

Im feeling no better today than yesterday...shaking like a leaf. Bom bardmnet of texts and missed calls from my nephews...she wants blood. She's still very angry and wants the dog dead. Trying to put me on a guilt trip implying that I dont care about my neice cos I dont want to kill the dog. She doesn't seem to have any understanding of what this is doing to me....she isn;t hurting the dog, she is hurting me. I love my niece and Im as much hurt about her being hurt, not only for being hurt but that its my actions that hurt her....but Im also hurting cos Im going to be losing something else thats precious to me....seems to be the story of my life.

So... Ive had little choice but to agree to have the dog put down or have the police involved...so I've agreed to the former on the understanding that she gives me time with the dog before she goes and that she pays half. After this...I will never speak to my sis in law again. Not because she is having my dog put down but the way she's dealt with me...understandibly angry..i can't fault her for that...but she has been such a bitch about it to me...not willing to discuss options...threatening to call the police if the dog isnt put down. Even strangers can be more understanding in situations like this but this is my Sister in Law....shes not actually cos she divorced my brother years ago, but I've always classed her as a sister. Now..the fact that she is willing to call the police on me shows just what she thinks of me.

It would've been easier if she could have showed a little bit of empathy for me and allow me to make this decision myself...discuss my feelings etc...but she is so full of hate towards me at the moment. I can't get a word in, if I dont say what she wants to hear...phone goes down and "im calling the police"........my family have kept on and on and on and on hounding me...making me feel worse than I already felt. Now...for this reason...once the dog is dead...Im done with her.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I really feel for you. I hope you are able to give the dog a great time before you put her to sleep.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

martmart said:


> Hi Marion.
> 
> Im feeling no better today than yesterday...shaking like a leaf. Bom bardmnet of texts and missed calls from my nephews...she wants blood. She's still very angry and wants the dog dead. Trying to put me on a guilt trip implying that I dont care about my neice cos I dont want to kill the dog. She doesn't seem to have any understanding of what this is doing to me....she isn;t hurting the dog, she is hurting me. I love my niece and Im as much hurt about her being hurt, not only for being hurt but that its my actions that hurt her....but Im also hurting cos Im going to be losing something else thats precious to me....seems to be the story of my life.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear your distress, but I think this is the right thing to do regardless. I also feel those who have been saying they wouldn't put a dog down and to get help have been grossly unfair and given you false hope.

Your sister-in-laws reaction is understandable even though it appears unfair. Her daughter is her priority and just as your own emotions are running high, no doubt so are hers.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

niki87 said:


> I know I am new to this part of the forum...and certainly have no experience that is worth noting. But whilst I am overwhelmed by the benevolence of some relative strangers on here...I am shocked at a couple of the crude remarks!! It is not pragmatic to give information or opinions in so a blunt, harsh way to someone who is so torn apart!!!
> 
> Martmart...I would suggest ringing your niece's family and explain the legal implications of a call to the police. I don't know the law but I would not expect any form of prison sentence, however.
> 
> ...


Sometimes, however hard it is, you do have to be cruel to be kind. No one from what I can see has been hard, or unduly rude, they have merely posted facts and while martmart may not have appreciated certain information it is there now to aid others who may be in the same situation regarding a dog bite.

Unfortunately dog bites are becoming more and more frequent, sad fact, but true. While everyone is always surprised when they hear them on the news or read about them in the press, sometimes I can't help but wonder, how many dogs from those news stories, actually have bite history, especially those that kill their victims, I'd think probably more than a few. Although not every other person thinks about this, I do and worry about the next round of persecution for the dogs and what future liability it will hold for dog lovers of all breeds, the great majority of whom, have never done anything wrong with their dogs apart from be, responsible dog owners.


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## j4nfr4n (Mar 10, 2013)

So very sorry this has happened to you i am thinking of both of you. Like others have said you have given a year of love and happiness that she seemingly didn't have before and you can be proud to know that you gave her the best time. please be strong and be with her when you let her go and let her know your love as she leaves this cruel world. god bless you both.


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## Jet90 (Dec 5, 2011)

hi sweets.

I don't have any advice to offer, but didn't want to read and run. I just wanted to say how much i feel for you with this current situation - what an awful position this is for you to be in. Your distress over this is evident and I just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you, & if you feel the need to talk you have lots of people here willing to listen.

Jet x


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

martmart said:


> So... Ive had little choice but to agree to have the dog put down or have the police involved...so I've agreed to the former on the understanding that she gives me time with the dog before she goes and that she pays half.


What? Why are you making your sister in law help pay for euthanizing your dog?! 
Do you think there may be a possibility that part of the reason she seems to not be understanding to you is that you're not being very understanding to her?

That strikes me as some gall, asking the mother of the injured child, who I'm sure has medical expenses from this, to help pay for dealing with the dog....


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> What? Why are you making your sister in law help pay for euthanizing your dog?!
> Do you think there may be a possibility that part of the reason she seems to not be understanding to you is that you're not being very understanding to her?
> 
> That strikes me as some gall, asking the mother of the injured child, who I'm sure has medical expenses from this, to help pay for dealing with the dog....


Agreed....strikes me as just a little, insensitive.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Im finding it hard to respond to comments individually...its hard to focus and read propery and to think how to respond. 

I will say this tho. Thank you all so much for the words of love and support. No one has been really harsh..people like to speak their mind which they have the right to do. I don't agree with everyones comments but I love that people have taken the time to read and share their thoughts, however harsh they may appear, even those who didnt read the whole thread and only responded to the first comment (something I tend to do)...... I like to think that all has been said with good intentions and no offence meant to me, I've certainly not taken offence, although obviously some comments hurt abit, but thats life...truth hurts. I have to face up to it. 

Once again, thank you so much. Im going to start making a few videos with the time I have left with her and I will share it on here if you are interested.


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## simonehadland2009 (Oct 27, 2012)

sorry but if i was your nieces mother i would be very annoyed aswell, yes she is your dog but what if the bite had been any worse or worse still she could have killed ur niece, there is the possibility that she could attack again and u could end up with her biting a stranger sorry but for this dog it is the right decision and as for making ur sister in law pay half the costs sorry but i think that is downright rude, i wouldn't even question paying that and i would also be offering to provide some sort of compensation sorry but u have your priorities wrong here and u need to take a look at yourself


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

ouesi said:


> What? Why are you making your sister in law help pay for euthanizing your dog?!
> Do you think there may be a possibility that part of the reason she seems to not be understanding to you is that you're not being very understanding to her?
> 
> That strikes me as some gall, asking the mother of the injured child, who I'm sure has medical expenses from this, to help pay for dealing with the dog....


agreed. Even in one of your earlier posts you said you were careless. Why sould your sister pay for your "carelessness" You're lucky it wasn't much worse.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

At first sight I thought it was unbelievable that the parent of the victim was going to pay half the euthanasia fee however if the OP is hard up and cannot afford it, I could understand why.

OP, the RSPCA or PDSA may do this for nothing or next to nothing if you qualify if you are on benefits etc.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

ouesi said:


> What? Why are you making your sister in law help pay for euthanizing your dog?!
> 
> Do you think there may be a possibility that part of the reason she seems to not be understanding to you is that you're not being very understanding to her?


and where did you get that assumption from? You dont know the situation or the family dynamics so please dont make assumptions.



> That strikes me as some gall, asking the mother of the injured child, who I'm sure has medical expenses from this, to help pay for dealing with the dog....


no medical expenses in the uk but you are right....what I posted was said in anger just minutes after the phone conversation...on reflection she shouldn't have to pay anything and Im going to talk to her later...give her money for the clothes that were damaged...all Im going to ask of her is that she give me time...maybe a fortnightto give me a chance to come to terms.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> At first sight I thought it was unbelievable that the parent of the victim was going to pay half the euthanasia fee however if the OP is hard up and cannot afford it, I could understand why.
> 
> OP, the RSPCA or PDSA may do this for nothing or next to nothing if you qualify if you are on benefits etc.


It was wrong of me to say that....Im just hurting so badly at the moment. She shouldn't hae to lose money for something that was my fault...Imm going to talk to her later. Im going to enquire about it next week.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

So you are going to keep your dog for a further fortnight before you have it PTS???????????

Unbelievable......................................


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## simonehadland2009 (Oct 27, 2012)

omg you really are not grasping the severity of this situation, u keep the dog u will be charged and not only sed dog will be killed so will ur other one u really want that i think not for god sake do the right thing


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

martmart said:


> and where did you get that assumption from? You dont know the situation or the family dynamics so please dont make assumptions.


What assumption? You said yourself you were going to ask her to pay half. The rest was me asking you a question, no assumptions there. Though I'm beginning to see why there may be communication issues...

I think a fortnight is too long for many reasons. Not the least of which is again, in who's interest are you keeping the dog alive - yours or hers?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Martmart I have been follwing your thread with tears in my eyes through all of it. I'm sorry this has happened. It was good of you to rescue that poor dog, and who knows what she suffers in her mind from her past, to make her the way she is. .

There are much worse things than death out there. Maybe she has already suffered some of them. A peaceful passing in the arms of her beloved rescuer may even be a blessing to her. Of course I can't know that for sure. I can't even imagine how torn apart you are through all this

Remember that your dog doesn't know what's going to happen. Be cheerful with her, create some happy memories for yourself, before the time you have to let her go. She will wait for you in that heaven normally called the Rainbow Bridge, with no blame. Hugs.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

Martmart. 

Do yourself a huge favour. If money is tight and you cannot afford to have your dog put to sleep, take a walk to the police station with the dog and explain what happened. You might as well, if your going to leave things for a fortnight because you could well get a visit today.

I can't vouch for what will happen to your dog, or you. But in the circumstances, with threats looming over your head, this is probably the most sensible thing to do, rather than having the police pay you a visit.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Martmart: I truly sympathise with you...you are in a ghastly position. However...if it were my dog, and I had really decided to PTS, there is no way I could keep her another fortnight, every day would tear me apart, I'd be counting the days as if I had been sentenced to death myself. And somehow I would feel like a traitor...but we are all totally different, you might need that time to come to terms with her fate. I would give myself the weekend to come to terms with it then take her Monday morning. I cannot imagine how you feel.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

fer god sake...please stop jumping on everything I say. 2 weeks was just something i came up with in the moment. I've got everyone jumping on my back pressuring me to have the dog put to sleep and some dont seem to appreciate how hard it is. (I know many others do) By the time i've enquired about things...and made appointments and saved up the money (assuming I have to pay a large amount which I did when I had her speyed)...the whole process could take a a month, let alone a fortnight.. anyway. I dont know..this is something I have to look into. I've had 2 days of unbelievable stress since it happened, as Im sure my sis in law has, not to mention my neice who is in a lot of pain herself. at this moment I want to die...Im not suicidal, but I just want to go to sleep and not wake up.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I can see where you are coming from re waiting a fortnight but it is a huge mistake however you look at it. Your sister in law will rightly be very angry if you do not do it straight away. Most vets are open today, I suggest you do it now.

I would also think it will make you very tense and unhappy if you have two weeks with it hanging over your head and you might well change your mind during that time and decide to give the dog another chance with awful consequences.

it would be very unfair if the police take your dog and she is kept in kennels for weeks before being pts. To be fair to her, your family and even to yourself it needs to be done today.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

simonehadland2009 said:


> omg you really are not grasping the severity of this situation, u keep the dog u will be charged and not only sed dog will be killed so will ur other one u really want that i think not for god sake do the right thing


Excuse me? Im not grasping the severity of the situation? The severity o the situation has been banging me on the head since it happened. You are not grasping the fact that you do not know, nor could you know, the family situation...these are people I love and we are all hurt in this. I know what I feel the right thing to do is given my home situation....but I haven't been given that option to discuss with my sis in law.... I did say earlier on in the thread before she made the threats that I wanted to seek help from a pro before I make any decisions and if she was beyond help, or it was too expensive then I was willing to go the pts route. Please don't ever suggest to me that I am not grasping the severity...Im fully aware of it.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

martmart said:


> fer god sake...please stop jumping on everything I say. 2 weeks was just something i came up with in the moment. I've got everyone jumping on my back pressuring me to have the dog put to sleep and some dont seem to appreciate how hard it is. (I know many others do) By the time i've enquired about things...and made appointments and saved up the money (assuming I have to pay a large amount which I did when I had her speyed)...the whole process could take a a month, let alone a fortnight.. anyway. I dont know..this is something I have to look into. I've had 2 days of unbelievable stress since it happened, as Im sure my sis in law has, not to mention my neice who is in a lot of pain herself. at this moment I want to die...Im not suicidal, but I just want to go to sleep and not wake up.


For goodness sake Martmart:incazzato:

It's gone from taking, two weeks, to a month, you can see how this looks can't you? I think a lot of people are just shocked at the fact you don't seem to be able to grasp how serious this situation is. You, cannot vouch for your dog, you cannot vouch for her behaviour and she certainly cannot be trusted, in any circumstances.

Whilst I appreciate you are stressed and worried. The hard cold facts are, your dog, has hurt someone, seriously, you cannot vouch or make promises this will not happen again, you don't have the money, right now to make appointments to have her assessed, you have struggled with this dog for nearly a year. Understandably, you have become attached to the dog, as anyone would have, especially concerning her circumstances.

I can honestly say, hand on heart. If my dog bit a child, completely unprovocked resulting in serious injuries, the dog would be gone yesterday, however much I loved my dog, I love people and value human life much more.

I realise that may be unsavory to some, but that is the most responsible thing to do.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Calvine said:


> Martmart: I truly sympathise with you...you are in a ghastly position. However...if it were my dog, and I had really decided to PTS, there is no way I could keep her another fortnight, every day would tear me apart, I'd be counting the days as if I had been sentenced to death myself. And somehow I would feel like a traitor...but we are all totally different, you might need that time to come to terms with her fate. I would give myself the weekend to come to terms with it then take her Monday morning. I cannot imagine how you feel.


Sorry...my response after yours wasn;t aimed at your post. The pressure to do whats right is intense at the moment. I don't know what the right thing to do is in terms of when it should be done. 2 weeks was just the top of my head.. I dont know...Imjust so confused


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

The thing is if you don't have the dog PTS as soon as possible you could find yourself getting a visit from the police and they will take the dog anyhow.

It's really hard but isn't it better you have that bit of control (for a better want of a word) and take her yourself.

If you can't afford it take her to the police station


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Martmart, quite honestly id log off the internet for the weekend, have a rest, have a think, and go from there without numerous faceless entities giving their opinions and trying to make you feel guilty, based on a situation only you know the full ins and outs of.

If you carry on reading all this, i think you are just going to make yourself feel a whole lot worse.

You're obviously an intelligent person, and are fully able to come to the correct solution for all involved.


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## Jet90 (Dec 5, 2011)

martmart, I can see you are floundering.

while i do admit that i was a little... confused? ...at the thought of your sister in law being required to pay half of the final vet visit, i could also understand all too well that you are sat either at a computer or on your phone, and typing your way through this, no doubt with a trillion thoughts buzzing round your head and your body full up to the brim with uncomfortable and painful emotions.

When we are in such a position, we say what we think, and those thoughts are based on the mix of emotions that we are feeling WHEN we say them. I can understand that you may have felt something and said something then, that now, you can see is not the best way to go, nor is it how you truly feel about it. 


with forums, i think it is hard, as unless we are constantly posting one after the other, or we lay it all out in one longer post ( which doesn't give you the chance to view and respond to other replies), then it is very difficult to accurately present your thoughts on the matter, and to meet your own very valid need to vent and work through all of the emotions you are experiencing.


In a situation like this as well, there will be lots of conflicting emotions and thoughts, and that much is evident through your words in your posts. 
There is inevitably going to be a delay in which you say something, post, take a breath, and then think "well, actually i dont feel like that anymore/i can see that isn't reasonable/that isn't actually what i want", and you begin another post explaining this. 
...however, in the meantime, we have only had that initial post to respond to, and some of those responses may not be positive and supportive of what that post contains. 


I'm sure this is only adding to the stress of your circumstances, and i am sorry for that. 

This must be such a difficult time for you, I hope that you can take the time you need to see to your needs - it is too easy in times like this to neglect ourselves, which won't help how you handle this tragedy, either. (if we are physically vulnerable, we are even more emotionally vulnerable).

please take gentle care.

Jet x


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> ....but I haven't been given that option to discuss with my sis in law.... I did say earlier on in the thread before she made the threats that I wanted to seek help from a pro before I make any decisions and if she was beyond help, or it was too expensive then I was willing to go the pts route.


I think there was some poor advice on here that has encouraged you think it would be a good idea to see a professional behaviourist to see if she can be helped. They were totally wrong and grossly unfair for giving you this hope.

Please for your dog's sake, for your family's sake and for your own sake, don't put the inevitable off.

As has been said, if you are going to struggle with paying the bill, PDSA or RSPCA may be able to help.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

I think this subject needs to be closed for now, it is not up to us what he does. we all think each other opposites are right. its up to martmart to find out the right thing to do, offline and with a very clear non-pushed-into-decision mind.

All the best


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

When I decided to have my elderly dog put to sleep, I decided, rang the vets, booked her in for the next day, rang the crematorium and booked in with them too.

I decided to do it fast to stop her suffering and reduce the "dragging it out" part for me, as I knew if I left it I'd never do it and it needed to be done as she was in pain.

Your dog has attacked someone, the parent is threatening to have you visited by the police who wont be so nice putting her to sleep. I know I'd rather be there for my dogs last moments than leave it to some stranger to do.

I think if you are putting it off because you hope it will blow over you're taking a big risk of your dog being taken by some stranger and put to sleep. 

Your vet will wave the cost of putting her to sleep for a week or even two after putting to sleep, all the vets I've been to have as they don't ask for your money on a day that you have had to make such a hard decision.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I have read all posts and think you would have been better taking your dog to the vet today, i know its hard to do, but you really must think "what if the dog gets out again" it could be a small child next time,, and then thats something you would have to live with, do you have a local dog warden you can contact and ask for their help , getting to vets/helping with costs, ?


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Awful situation to be put in but the thing is if its reported to the police then they will come and take the poor dog and the will put her to sleep and then you wont be the last face she will see
If you dont have the money for the vet and I know its expensive Just wondered do you have a PDSA nearby they would do it for you and you only have to give the donation that you can afford and you will be by her side when she goes 
In this position I think that is what I would do


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## cheekymonkey68 (Nov 18, 2012)

Martmart, sorry to hear that the conversation with your SIL didnt go too well, she is however acting exactly as most mums would if their child was hurt. 
If I was you I'd not answer the txts from your nephews or try to answer everyones posts on here, as that just adding unnecessary pressure at a time when you dont need it.

If SIL does go to the police they will come and visit you within a couple of days at most, they very likely will take your dog away and it would be assessed by a dog warden..... 
I understand that you must be torn in two having to come to terms with a decision that is almost out of your control, but I have to agree better to get things under way sooner than later so you dont get even more upset. (I would go mad with grief) 

I dont know how much it costs to have a dog pts but I'd go for a ball park fig of £100. 
Someone made the suggestion to take your dog directly to the police station and explain your situation and see what they have to say. 
I think I would walk into the police stn without the dog, and talk to them about what happened and procedures that would be followed should your SIL put in the complaint. 
Then you would be able to decide timings better if needed. 

Have you seen your niece and her injuries, this might help you come to terms with your decision at hand better.
When speaking to family you need to say that you will make the right decision and do what is necessary, but need to come to terms with it.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

cheekymonkey68 said:


> Martmart, sorry to hear that the conversation with your SIL didnt go too well, she is however acting exactly as most mums would if their child was hurt.
> If I was you I'd not answer the txts from your nephews or try to answer everyones posts on here, as that just adding unnecessary pressure at a time when you dont need it.
> 
> If SIL does go to the police they will come and visit you within a couple of days at most, *they very likely will take your dog away and it would be assessed by a dog warden..... *
> ...


The dog, if taken away by police, will not be assessed by a dog warden, it will be assessed by a Police dog section officer.


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## cheekymonkey68 (Nov 18, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> The dog, if taken away by police, will not be assessed by a dog warden, it will be assessed by a Police dog section officer.


And what difference will that make to the situation, when *Martmart is having to make life altering and difficult decisions. *


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

cheekymonkey68 said:


> And what difference will that make to the situation, when *Martmart is having to make life altering and difficult decisions. *


None.

Martmart does however need to be in possession of the *correct* facts.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

I have read this thread from start to finish, and I feel for everyone involved.

OP - you took on an abandoned dog, with the best of intentions - but not knowing its history, or how it had been treated. You have done your best - 

- but this incident has shown you that we can't always work that miracle, however hard we try.

Your dog was probably damaged by what happened before he came to you - was he timid?, was he trained at all?, people friendly?, did he have scars?, was he a fighting/bait dog?

Now the unthinkable has happened, and he has attacked and injured your niece. If I were her mother, I too would be livid that you had not visited, and had not taken immediate action (PTS).

You say you want nothing more to do with them - but they are probably thinking the same. You need to visit and talk face to face with the mother - about her daughter, the victim. Talm to the girl if you are allowed. Then I think you will know what to do.

I know that's horrible to hear, but there is no other choice if your dog is dangerous. 

To rehome privately risks the same thing happening again to someone else - which would be your responsibilty. To sign over to a recue would either result in him being PTS, or kept in a kennel somewhere - then PTS.

You need to ask yourself - can you absolutely guarantee that nothing like this will ever happen again, if you keep him? (if the police allow you to)

I think you need to think of your niece, and you need to visit as soon as possible - however upset you are - and see how she has been affected. If you don't visit, you are avoiding the issue, and it will make you look very bad.

That visit may help you put this into perspective, and may make the decision easier to see through, when you see the effect the attack had on your niece.

You tried your best, but it went wrong. Don't prolong things.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just want to say I am so sorry that the conversation with your SIL didn't go better. But of course you are both so very upset and anxious, it's understandable that things between you are tense right now.

You did a really kind thing, rescuing this dog - she's probably known more love and kindness from you than anyone else. Don't be too hard on yourself at this ghastly, sad time.

You must be exhausted and very unhappy right now - take a break from phone calls and online forums and spend the time instead with your girl xx


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

appoitnment on wednesday at 3 at the pdsa...cos she's bitten someone there will be no charge. 

Im too devastated to respond to anyone at the moment...sorry. Im going to bed.


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## Jet90 (Dec 5, 2011)

cheekymonkey68 said:


> And what difference will that make to the situation, when *Martmart is having to make life altering and difficult decisions. *


- dog wardens are widely available, accessible, and can generally attend fairly quickly, as we have all no doubt experienced with stray dogs etc at some point. The dog would be placed in a secure holding kennel until a fully qualified police assessor was available, of which there are very few, so the process could take some days.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I am really sorry for the situation you are in and more sorry for the situation your poor dog is in.I have taken on a dog that was very aggressive in the past and sorry to say unless you are 100% dedicated to that dog it will happen again,please don't think I am saying you don't love the dog but it needed an owner with more experience than I think maybe you have.I can't say PTS as I think with the right discipline and owner the dog could be turned around I have seen it done many times by a member on PF.Once again sorry for the situation you are in.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

I have nothing remotely insightful to add.

Except that as a devoted pet owner I can fathom how deeply devastated I would feel in your shoes. And how deeply torn when the head says to do one thing, and every fibre in your heart screams for another solution.

Words couldn't adequately convey how very sorry I am that you find yourself in this predicament. You sound like a profoundly honourable, decent and very kind human being.

But unless money is absolutely no issue making it feasible to enlist an army of behaviourists, trainers, etc, etc, please don't wait to prolong the inevitable.

You MAY find a workable solution for your dog - e.g. wearing a permant muzzle 24/7 inside and outside the home.

You may also find a convincing rationale WHY this accident has occurred. By shouldering the blame squarely yourself, taking full responsability for a temporary absentmindedness in safely containing her and, and, and.....

Yet, none of it will change the fact that the dog is inherently aggressive and her attack unjustified. That she will likely never change. You know that. And you accept that.

I think what you aren't willing to accept is how thoroughly stressful and deeply lonely your life will become if you don't steel yourself and take her to the vets to be euthanized ASAP. The dog WILL turn you into a nervous wreck and you know...that really isn't what sharing ones life with a dog is about. 

Their purpose is to enrich our lives, not to impossibly burden it. The reason we have them is to have more joy, more happiness.....not more anxiety, endless worry and having to live like a recluse because the dog is so dangerous.

Bid your furry friend a respectful final goodbye at the vet. You have NOT let her down. 

You really haven't.

Wishing you strength and determination and sending all my empathy.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> None.
> 
> Martmart does however need to be in possession of the *correct* facts.


Surely the police will explain the 'facts' to him...I have to assume that they know them.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

Calvine said:


> Surely the police will explain the 'facts' to him...I have to assume that they know them.


Hopefully the police won't have to explain the facts, the dog is booked in to be placed to sleep on Wednesday.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

So so sorry MATMART.

My thoughts are with you at this horrible time x


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Glad i suggested the PDSA they are very kind vets there and they will let you stay with your dog while he is pts You tried your very best so there is not much more that you can do only enjoy your time with him 
Be there with him at the PDSA when he passes to go to the rainbow bridge 
Yours will be the last face that he see's I do hope you and your family can work things out as its been a horrible time for everyone 
I would not log on the pc I would just spend the time with your dog


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## Debxan (Jan 9, 2011)

I feel very sorry for you but I also think you have no choice. You cannot keep the dog and you just can't expect someone else to either. What if this happened again - it might be even worse another time. 

I hope you find the strength to do the right thing.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

martmart said:


> appoitnment on wednesday at 3 at the pdsa...cos she's bitten someone there will be no charge.
> 
> Im too devastated to respond to anyone at the moment...sorry. Im going to bed.


I can't like this, I feel so sad for you and your girl, I wish there was something more, as I am sure you do.

So sorry.

Perhaps for Malmart's sake we could all take a step back from this thread. I know I'd made some hard posts but nevertheless it's obvious that the OP loves his dog and this is an awful situation which the family find themselves in. Maybe in leaving this thread alone or locking it, the OP can spend time with their dog before Wednesday without feeling they have to defend themselves or reply to every comment on here. Particularly the ones that haven't take the time or manners to read the post I've quoted from above.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> Hopefully the police won't have to explain the facts, the dog is booked in to be placed to sleep on Wednesday.


Yes, I am aware of that. So, OP having agreed to have the dog euthanized, the sister in law has now decided she will no longer make a formal complaint to the police...is that definitely so? It is to be hoped so; I must have missed that post. That is excellent news and must be a massive relief to martmart.


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## cheekymonkey68 (Nov 18, 2012)

So sorry Martmart, I'll be thinking of you, try your best to hold it together for your girl, she wont understand the awful position you are in. 
Spend some good time with her until then. Try not to cry too much. Im sure you are devastated. Its even made me cry this afternoon as I know how easily it could have been me in this situation at one point!! Will be here if you need to let it all out at any time, just pm me... 
M x


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Take care martmart.

Life is cruel sometimes, but we can only do the best we can.

No need to reply.

XX


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Since my last post...I didn;t go to bed.. I went to draw some money out the bank..went to the pub, had a few drinks. Then I went to my SiL's house...my niece answered the door. she told me her mum was at work. My niece is absolutely fine, .... the way her mum was going on I imagined my niece as being in bed, totally screwed up, unable to walk...etc. but she was absolutely fine.. I paid her £50 for the damaged clothes (abit more than her mum asked for, but far less than she deserves for what happened)......she saw I was pretty upset even tho I tried my best to hide it...she asked if I was ok...I said not to worry about me....she seemed happy enough, had her usual lovely smile on her....I told her the situation with the dog and to let her mum know.....I apologised to her and gave her a hug (first time I;ve seen her since it happened).......I then went back to the pub, had a few more drinks. 

Theres a lot more that I could add in terms of the things I've learned about my SiL and her vindictive nature...but I'll leave it at that now. 

Thanks once again to EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE who shared their thoughts in this thread..all opinions, whether I liked them or not, were taken on board and did influence me to make my final decision which wouldn;t have been as easy without them. I do feel strangely at ease now I've made the arrangements...but Im soooo dreading wednesday...I just wish I could have someone with me when she goes. 

I will try to make a video, or atleast a photo thingy and post in rainbow bridge sometime after...and I really hope to see you all there. 

thanks once again for the support and guidance...it is very much appreciated and has been a great help.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've followed this thread from start to finish, and just want to say how sorry I am that you're in this awful situation. Please be kind to yourself, I will be thinking about you now and on Wednesday. Your niece sounds a gem.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Summersky said:


> Take care martmart.
> 
> Life is cruel sometimes, but we can only do the best we can.
> 
> ...


oh believe me...I know how cruel life can be.....I've been there many times before. I'm sure we all have at some point.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

I've read this thread from start to finish, starting yesterday and looking today for an update on how you're doing.. I couldn't bring myself to leave without a comment.

No kind advice from me i'm afraid but no opinion either.

My thoughts are with you and will be with you on Wednesday - what a terrible situation you have been in. It sounds like you gave this dog a chance when no-one else wanted to (Having a rescue dog myself its such a heart warming generous thing you have done and shows what a lovely person you must be) Best wishes are also being sent to your niece - i'm glad you've seen her and she is ok. x


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

JenSteWillow said:


> My thoughts are with you and will be with you on Wednesday - what a terrible situation you have been in. It sounds like you gave this dog a chance when no-one else wanted to (Having a rescue dog myself its such a heart warming generous thing you have done and shows what a lovely person you must be) Best wishes are also being sent to your niece - i'm glad you've seen her and she is ok. x


thankyou!

She's lying here next to me at the moment as i type...having a doggy dream with all the twitching. Im dreading wednesday so much


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

'Funny' you should write that.. I've just done a thread in Dog Chat of how my Willow looks now asleep.. maybe you should take a pic too and add on  I'd love to see her before wednesday? - if its not to hard for you  Personally i love staffies - always been around them growing up. Enjoy your time with her - maybe do things you haven't done before & make new memories. I honestly can't imagine how you're feeling x


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## queen princess (Jun 29, 2013)

I am new here but I just wanted to say how sorry I am for your situation. I have been on both sides. years ago, when I lived in New York, my co workers dog attacked me down to the bone. I had several months of wet to dry bandadge changes on my right arm. I gave the owner a choice. they could eather euthanize the dog, or I would take them to court for 1/2 the medical bills. I only gave them 24 hours to choose since they also had a 2 yr old kid and I was fearfull for his safety. she chose to euthanize. that was the end of that. I think some of the problem here is the fact of you wanting her to help pay for the dog to be PTS. a few years later, we moved to utah. we had a dog who one day, bit a friend. I loved that dog, but the reality is that if a dog bites a person once, it's likely to happen again. we had a foster child living with us at the time. I called animal control that day. the animal control officer came right over and picked up the dog and took it to the vet. I was not charged since it was more of a danger for him to be kept alive. the animal control officer was not afraid of him because they were friends. she always came and gave him cookies and he had never shown any signs of agression before that day, not even to the vet. neather the vet or animal control could believe he was a danger. the dog then happens to bite the vet requiring 8 stitches in his hand. because we turned our own dog in before police got involved, it never went any further. 
the way that I looked at it was this. if my dog bit somebody when he is awake, unprovoked, what is going to happen the first time he is sleeping and gets startled by something and I'm sitting next to him. 
I feel bad that this has happened, but by putting him to sleep, you are showing him the most love that you can. make it a special day. give him a special treat that he isn't allowed to have, rather it be chocolate or what ever he wants. play his favorite games or toys with him. It WILL be a very hard day for you, but the happier he is before going in to be PTS, the less concerned he will be so he can fall asleep peacefully. take his favorite treats with you so after they put the cathiter in, he can have a reward to getting it put in.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

So glad you have been able to make the decision, sad though it is. I have been through this in the past so know how you are feeling. I hope you cope till Wednesday, I know I would have to do it straight away.
Just know that you are doing the right thing - sadly there is no choice and you are making sure you and your dog do not suffer in the future.


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## j4nfr4n (Mar 10, 2013)

My rhoughts will be with you on wednesday xx


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

As hard as it is you have made the right decision. You gave her a year of love and kindness when no one else would give her a chance and you should be commended for that.

Needles to say our thoughts will be with you on wednesday and we hope your neice makes a full recovery and finds it in her heart to forgive you for what was nothing but a tragic accident.


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Not sure where you live but wonder if anyone on the forum lives close to you and could go with you I am in South Wales if you were near me I would go with you


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

shirleystarr said:


> Not sure where you live but wonder if anyone on the forum lives close to you and could go with you I am in South Wales if you were near me I would go with you


That's a really kind idea.

Martmart - many of us are crying with you, and even if you do go on your own, many of us will be with you in spirit.

But if you can have company, do take some, for the homeward trip especially.

Perhaps plan somewhere where you can go afterwards, a special place, rather than go straight home.

Glad your niece is OK too. You have done all you can in the circumstances.

Take all the photos and videos you can before Wednesday. They will become very special to you in time. And know that you gave your doggy friend a home and love and happy times when she needed it; and now you are protecting her from him being involved in the type of incident we read about all too often in the papers.

Take care.

No need to reply.

XX


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

So sorry my thoughts are with you for Wednesday x


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## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

So sorry..

You did everything you could and clearly care for her very much

Will be thinking of you on Wednesday. Stay strong


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm sorry your in this position , thinking of you


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

As someone else said, life is so cruel sometimes. That's so very true. It's an absolutely heartbreaking thing that you're going through and I hope you'll be ok in time. Don't forget that we're all hear to support you and offer some love and comfort during this sad time. 

Try to enjoy these next few days as best you can, spending some quality time with your dog, taking the pictures and videos. I hope you'll share them with us when you feel ready. 

Sending lots of love to you. What a difficult time you must be having. x


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Come back here on Wednesday. Nobody will give you a hard time. Don't turn to the "demon drink". It's good that your niece doesn't seem as traumatised as you first thought.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

shirleystarr said:


> Not sure where you live but wonder if anyone on the forum lives close to you and could go with you I am in South Wales if you were near me I would go with you


Im nowhere near south Wales, but if I were in your area, I would probably have prefered someone I know like a relative to be with me. Its a really nice thought tho, thankyou


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

diefenbaker said:


> Come back here on Wednesday. Nobody will give you a hard time. Don't turn to the "demon drink". It's good that your niece doesn't seem as traumatised as you first thought.


its ok...Im not the type to turn to drink to escape. I just needed company..the beer helped calm down my nerves but I had a few coffees too, I was relaxed and conversation took my mind away from things...except for the occassional "how are your little dogs"...I did tell a couple of people the situation but i didn;t dwell on it, but it was obvious in my eyes that it was a sore subject...so we moved on from that...

thanks


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## HappyWag (Aug 25, 2012)

Just wanted to add that I am so sorry. You are kind and so brave. Will be thinking about you on Wednesday x


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## Velcro (May 20, 2013)

So very sorry about your situation. My thoughts will be with you on Wednesday


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

This has to be the saddest thread iv read on pf and mart your last few replies have brought tears in my eyes.

Im annoyed how some have jumped on you countless times,where was the compassion I don't know.Best not add no more to that.

Seriously I really do feel for you and your niece.I hope you can find some comfort Wednesday in the fact you showed this dog what it was to be loved.

Thoughts are with you so very much.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just wanted to say that I will be thinking of you on Wednesday - as someone suggested, DO come back on here Wednesday evening if you feel up to it, many of us on here have lost dogs ourselves, and we are here to offer any support we possibly can. 

xx


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

No words can express my deep sorrow at what you must be going through now MartMart. May you find comfort in knowing that it was you that gave your girl much love and a wonderful home, you that showed her how loving and caring a human could be when she was most in need.

May god bless you for your kind deed.
Much love to you both.


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

I have been following this thread since it started :crying:

My thoughts are with you and I am so sorry to hear of your situation. What a dreadful thing to have to go through for all involved. 

Will be thinking of you.


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## kitty25 (Mar 11, 2011)

I've been following since the start  You sound like a very kind person, who has given your dog the most wonderful year, with love and kindness. I hope you find the strength to get through Wednesday - will be thinking of you x


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Thaks once again for all the kind words of support through this difficult time. Just to let you know.. I can't resign myself to the fact Im going to lose something thats so precious to me. I know my dog better than anyone and I know very well tht shes not an agressive dog..and I believe that if what she did was based on agression, my nieces injuries would have been far worse even in the short space of time it happened.. yes the dog has some issues I accept that..but i dont believe her issues, after 18 month of being in my care, are issues that can't easily be dealt with by a pro.

Today i've called a professional.... I have not cancelled the pts appointment, its still for wednesday at 3....but I've got to call him back tonight and i want to get his view, to see if anything can be done...then to offer a conditional compromise to my SiL. If he deems the dog unfit to be kept alive, then I will resign to the fact she has to be PTS and she is welcome to come along with me to see it done.

The only person at fault here is me for not doing something like this sooner. I know some here wont like this, but to be fair, those people don't know my dog and only base their assumptions on what I say, which is understandable...but I do get confused at times and maybe contradict myself at times. I feel we both deserve a second chance, but I will wait to see what the trainer says. He is a reputable trainer I believe and some may know of him here... the Dogman based in stafford I think.

in the meantime...here is my photobucket page with all the pictures of my dog up to the most recent.

martmart46's Library | Photobucket


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I have a dog whom will bite/attack people at home. 4 years ago he attacked my dad. I offered to have him PTS but fortunately he said no. 

I still have Max and he still can't be trusted (at home). But we manage it and ensure it can never happen again. 

Your dog could do an awful lot of damage, yet he / she choose not to. 

As long as nobody else can ever get bit then I see no harm in keeping him/her. 

Good luck!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I've not read the whole thread, because I was just too shocked at peoples lack of compassion ( there but for the grace of god and all that ) .. Just cried my eyes out at your pictures, I hope something can be done that is safe and right by all concerned... My thoughts are with you, and they will still be with you on Wednesday if it's the only option left to you. It's one of the hardest things saying "goodbye" to a dog you love, and even harder when you have to make that choice, even if it's the "right" thing to do, and I would hope that some people would remember that.............


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> I have a dog whom will bite/attack people at home. 4 years ago he attacked my dad. I offered to have him PTS but fortunately he said no.
> 
> I still have Max and he still can't be trusted (at home). But we manage it and ensure it can never happen again.
> 
> ...


Edit: Im glad you still have max. Hopefully I'lll be able to say the same thing soon.

Exactly...where I live she has no easy access to people....there is a big yard with the side of a house at one side, and the side of a lockup/garage on the other side with a big tall gate at the bottom that has barbed wire at the top. Even all my windows have meshing on them so even tho its impossible to get out even without the meshing there, the meshing is extra security. she only ever goes out with me on a short chain....and Im always cautious when people approach. I take her to an area where I can take her offlead where there are few people or dogs, but on the few occassions that people have come along with the dogs...she;s been great...with the dogs and totally ignores the people...she just does her own thing. I must admit I do panic inside a bit...but I know I've never had a need to. I cant accept that she has to be put down for my stupidity....its not fair for her and its not fair for me. Theres just no need to. Selfish??? Maybe so but Im not giving up without atleast abit of a fight. I love her too much.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Meezey said:


> I've not read the whole thread, because I was just too shocked at peoples lack of compassion ( there but for the grace of god and all that ) .. Just cried my eyes out at your pictures, I hope something can be done that is safe and right by all concerned... My thoughts are with you, and they will still be with you on Wednesday if it's the only option left to you. It's one of the hardest things saying "goodbye" to a dog you love, and even harder when you have to make that choice, even if it's the "right" thing to do, and I would hope that some people would remember that.............


I;'ve done nothing but mope around and cry until today....unable to even look at my dog...who, yet again..just like in many of the pictures is lying here right beside me. Today has atleast stopped me from crying as much.

thankyou 

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/martmart46/library/?sort=3&page=1


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Just hugs from me xx  xx

I read this late last night and was sat in bed crying. I really feel for you. Thinking of you. Can't imagine the mixture of emotions you must be going through right now.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Go with the info from the behaviourist. Hopefully your sil agrees. I'm wishing you the best of luck.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

This thread has panned out exactly as I thought it would.

I wondered how long it would be before you posted that you were not having your dog pts after all........................

I see you have not taken advice and asked for a vet referral to a qualified, experienced behaviourist but chosen to go it alone and selected someone who does not have the relevant academic qualifications required to legitimately call themselves a pet behaviourist.

I hope that neither you nor anyone else lives to regret this decision.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> This thread has panned out exactly as I thought it would.
> 
> I wondered how long it would be before you posted that you were not having your dog pts after all........................
> 
> ...


I was just about to mention, can't see this person on the APTD either.
Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

words fail me.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Please go with a vet referral behaviourist.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Maybe someone here can recommend a really good behaviourist in your area?

I just looked at the pics and your girl is a beauty  I totally totally understand that you want an expert opinion, let us know what this guy says, will you?

Thinking of you and your girl xx


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> This thread has panned out exactly as I thought it would.
> 
> I wondered how long it would be before you posted that you were not having your dog pts after all........................
> 
> ...


Remember...I know my dog  and if nothing else...today has at the very least freed me from the deep emotions Im feeling at the thought of losing her. What the guy says tonight will depend on what happens on wednesday. Im sure he will know better than me if the dog needs to see a behaviourist if I give him the full background and maybe arrange for him to see her. If not then wednesday is still on. If so, then I'll postpone it until such time that he suggests either that nothing can be done, or she can be "fixed" ..(for want of a better word).... but Im sure you yourself would fight tooth and nail for something you love when you feel in your heart that something can be done....if not, then Im sorry for you.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MATMART - which area do you live in? If someone here can recommend an experienced behaviourist who could assess your girl, would you contact that behaviourist?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

martmart said:


> Remember...I know my dog  and if nothing else...today has at the very least freed me from the deep emotions Im feeling at the thought of losing her. What the guy says tonight will depend on what happens on wednesday. Im sure he will know better than me if the dog needs to see a behaviourist if I give him the full background and maybe arrange for him to see her. If not then wednesday is still on. If so, then I'll postpone it until such time that he suggests either that nothing can be done, or she can be "fixed" ..(for want of a better word).... but Im sure you yourself would fight tooth and nail for something you love when you feel in your heart that something can be done....if not, then Im sorry for you.


Please do not feel sorry for me, I have been where you are and took the responsible route.

You have been given very constructive advice on this thread regarding the best people to consult re the future of your dog.

You chose to ignore it by picking someone who does not fulfil that criteria.

Some people just cannot be helped.................... I am afraid I now see where your SiL is coming from.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Please do not feel sorry for me, I have been where you are and took the responsible route.
> 
> You have been given very constructive advice on this thread regarding the best people to consult re the future of your dog.
> 
> ...


How about for once you just quit the lecturing and try and exhibit a smidgen of compassion along with the sound advice you are also capable of giving??


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

martmart said:


> Thaks once again for all the kind words of support through this difficult time. Just to let you know.. I can't resign myself to the fact Im going to lose something thats so precious to me. *I know my dog better than anyone and I know very well tht shes not an agressive dog.*.and I believe that if what she did was based on agression, my nieces injuries would have been far worse even in the short space of time it happened.. yes the dog has some issues I accept that..but i dont believe her issues, after 18 month of being in my care, are issues that can't easily be dealt with by a pro.
> 
> Today i've called a professional.... I have not cancelled the pts appointment, its still for wednesday at 3....but I've got to call him back tonight and i want to get his view, to see if anything can be done...then to offer a conditional compromise to my SiL. If he deems the dog unfit to be kept alive, then I will resign to the fact she has to be PTS and she is welcome to come along with me to see it done.
> 
> The only person at fault here is me for not doing something like this sooner. I know some here wont like this, but to be fair, those people don't know my dog and only base their assumptions on what I say, which is understandable...but I do get confused at times and maybe contradict myself at times. I feel we both deserve a second chance, but I will wait to see what the trainer says. He is a reputable trainer I believe and some may know of him here... the Dogman based in stafford I think.


I am sorry but your dog is clearly aggressive. A non-aggressive dog would not slip out of a door and launch a "full blown" attack, and still be tugging in the victim's thigh when you reach her. I know this is devastating for you but you are not doing you or your of any favours by making excuses for her.

The trainer you have contacted may be very reputable but a quick google shows that he is NOT a behaviourist. He may be able to help stop your dog pulling on the lead but in this case you need a good behaviourist (with a vet referral) to determine whether this is something that can be worked on.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> How about for once you just quit the lecturing and try and exhibit a smidgen of compassion along with sound advice?


It was sound advice.

As has been pointed out, the person that has been consulted, is not a behaviourist, but a trainer, who doesn't show up on the link I provided above.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> It was sound advice.
> 
> As has been pointed out, the person that has been consulted, is not a behaviourist, but a trainer, who doesn't show up given on the link I provided above.


I agreed she was giving sound advice - it's in the part of my response you have just quoted!

NEWSFLASH: it is actually possible to combine sound advice with a tiny bit of empathy and compassion.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I agreed she was giving sound advice - it's in the part of my response you have just quoted!
> 
> NEWSFLASH: it is actually possible to combine sound advice with a tiny bit of empathy and compassion.


Wheres the compassion for the child whose leg was mauled?


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Please I'm worried for you and your dog. If it's attacked once, it may well do it again. You couldn't stop it this time, and next time it could be much worse.

A trainer is not a behaviorist. I'm just worried you're going to end up more devastated and your girl still been PTS


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> Wheres the compassion for the child whose leg was mauled?


Since when is compassion for the child and dog mutually exclusive?

If you'd bothered to read my posts, I enquired about the niece several times and also remarked that she sounds like a very sweet girl.

I *AGREE* that the OP needs a very experienced behaviourist.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Since when is compassion for the child and dog mutually exclusive?
> 
> If you'd bothered to read my posts, I enquired about the niece several times and also remarked that she sounds like a very sweet girl.
> 
> I *AGREE* that the OP needs a very experienced behaviourist.


Suppose it boils down to what different people find important to them....and by the grace of god I go......

Just hope for the OP's sake they do not get a visit from the police, which has been threatened.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Does anyone know in which area MATMART lives?

Can anyone recommend a good behaviourist there?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> Suppose it boils down to what different people find important to them....and by the grace of god I go......
> 
> Just hope for the OP's sake they do not get a visit from the police, which has been threatened.


Where have I said it is not important for people to be safe from the dog?

I have agreed that the OP desperately needs a really good, experienced behaviourist. That is the only possible route to go down now. As well as muzzling the dog the second anyone arrives at the door.

MATMART - which area are you in?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Does anyone know in which area MATMART lives?
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good behaviourist there?


Being as the trainer is in Stafford, I presume, Martmart lives locally.

Plenty of vets in and around that area, even the PDSA from what I have just read will refer their clients to behaviourists.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I really hope things turn out the way you want them to,as I said before I have taken on a very aggressive dog in the past and from reading your past and present posts I feel you are going to have to toughen up toward the dog and teach it its place is the very bottom of the pack and you are at the top and what you say goes that means no cuddles on the sofaI went to Roger Mugford to have the dog assessed but not sure what your financial situation is.Best of luck martmart


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Does anyone know in which area MATMART lives?
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good behaviourist there?


I live not TOO far from here that trainer I mentioned is based.

Im going to tell him the whole story from the day I found her up to present...all the little issues which I believe are probably just nothing more than issues that need a little bit of training. Im also going to ask about the qualifications that were mentioned here.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dimwit said:


> I am sorry but your dog is clearly aggressive. A non-aggressive dog would not slip out of a door and launch a "full blown" attack, and still be tugging in the victim's thigh when you reach her. I know this is devastating for you but you are not doing you or your of any favours by making excuses for her.
> 
> The trainer you have contacted may be very reputable but a quick google shows that he is NOT a behaviourist. He may be able to help stop your dog pulling on the lead but in this case you need a good behaviourist (with a vet referral) to determine whether this is something that can be worked on.


Absolutely 100% agree.

Malmart you have a chance to make a difference if you make an educated decision. This is not. I feel desperately sorry for your predicament but this goes back to what I said in my first post on here - you were offered so much advice about your concerns last year and seemed to take very little action. Please do not repeat this for all the reasons that Dimwit and the others have said.

If you have any opportunity to save your dog's life and appease your sister in law, it _must_ be with a qualified behaviourist's support. Don't use the excuse you haven't got any money, you wouldn't have rung up the trainer if that were the reason. Call the vet tomorrow, explain and ask for referral. A trainer that will take your money for this wasting your time and should have passed you to someone better qualified. You know this surely.

Consider your a*se kicked. In a gentle way.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Now try here

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

to those who are pro PTS. I really really wish you could come and spend the day with myself and sasha.. not in the flat ofcourse...but out walking. Im really sure you'd have a totally different view of things...better than I can put in words anyway. Please dont use my crap way with explaining things as a paintbrush ....what I say, the picture I paint in peoples minds compared with the reality of things can be totally different and people will base their opinion on that, and their own experiences. 

Words I used in this thread to describe the "full blown attack" were all used because of the intensity of the moment. Now Im looking at things from hindsight and I repeat what I said earlier. If it had been a full bown attack the damage would have been far worse and believe me I have seen what dogs are capable of in a full blown attack. 

The issue with people coming in the flat, I think its just over excitement (to put it mildly) with a tendancy to nip, possibly at dangly items of clothing or something. All issues that could have been dealt with by the previous owner at pup stage, and by me after I found her. She acts on impulse and that something I need to help her to learn to control. this is why Im seeking the advice of this particuar trainer. Im sure he is professional enough to tell me what the best thing is to do...and maybe point me in the right direction.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Why waste money on someone who can point you in the right direction? People here are telling you the correct routes. I hope you listen to the advice.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

martmart said:


> to those who are pro PTS. I Now Im looking at things from hindsight and I repeat what I said earlier. If it had been a full bown attack the damage would have been far worse and believe me I have seen what dogs are capable of in a full blown attack.


So this wasn't a full blown attack.. sounds bad to me


martmart said:


> but my dog got out and darted to her and badly bit her leg. I couldn't do anything to stop it...as I reached them my dogs front teeth we still tugging at her thigh....I didn't see the whole thing but this morning her mum tells me her leg is in a bad way and I believe this was a full blown attack of my neice


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Now try here
> 
> CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers


thanks for that.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

astro2011 said:


> Why waste money on someone who can point you in the right direction? People here are telling you the correct routes. I hope you listen to the advice.


Im just going to talk to him first.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

gawd people, Ive had one day that I've been free from tears and a little bit of hope....dont try to take that away from me....it may only be for one day, but atleast Im free from it for now.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I hope you take the advice and the best of luck.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

martmart said:


> thanks for that.


I would listen to the advise, I'd contact a qualified behaviorist, don't waste your money on a Dog Trainer, he will have great experience training dogs, but he's not a behaviorist. If you want to have any chance of not having to have your dog PTS on Wednesday, do the right thing, by your family and your dog, and contact a behaviorist, of something can be done to save your dog, then these are the people who are going to be able to do it...

I know emotions are running high right now, sit down think logically and take a look at your own pictures of your dog and do what's right her, no more excuses, no more what you think happened, or what you think is wrong, get the correct professional advise from the correct professional if you love your dog, and your niece you will do the right thing by them


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

We are trying to *give* you hope 


-by pointing you in the right direction. The 'dogman' looks like a decent trainer BUT there is no mention on his site of experience dealing with an aggressive dog, I don't think. Maybe he knows a good behaviourist - don't be shy about asking him if he can recommend someone


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

martmart said:


> thanks for that.


I thought Lisa and Claire seemed appropriate.

I'm not pro PTS but I am a believer that the power to educate a dog always lies with the owner and not stupid laws on dangerous dogs. You could change this but only with the right help, please save your pennies and try to save your dog.

I am pleased you've had a day that's been clearer and you've had a chance to think about the options heaven knows you needed it  But just as everyone tried to offer support to you over the weekend - and believe me I was thinking about you and your dog on my walks - we're only trying to offer you our wisdom on your choice of expert. If that helps towards a better future, don't you think it's worth listening to. Why would you have updated the thread otherwise?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

martmart said:


> Edit: Im glad you still have max. Hopefully I'lll be able to say the same thing soon.
> 
> Exactly...where I live she has no easy access to people....there is a big yard with the side of a house at one side, and the side of a lockup/garage on the other side with a big tall gate at the bottom that has barbed wire at the top. Even all my windows have meshing on them so even tho its impossible to get out even without the meshing there, the meshing is extra security. she only ever goes out with me on a short chain....and Im always cautious when people approach. I take her to an area where I can take her offlead where there are few people or dogs, but on the few occassions that people have come along with the dogs...she;s been great...with the dogs and totally ignores the people...she just does her own thing. I must admit I do panic inside a bit...but I know I've never had a need to. I cant accept that she has to be put down for my stupidity....its not fair for her and its not fair for me. Theres just no need to. Selfish??? Maybe so but Im not giving up without atleast abit of a fight. I love her too much.


I'm so glad we saved Max as it had made us better, more experienced owners.

Maybe your dog will always be a bit distrustful of people. If that does happen to be the case then she will be all the more precious to you.

As long as you keep her and other people safe then there is no reason for you not to keep her.

This website may or may not help you

Dogs In Need Of Space


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

martmart said:


> Im sure he is professional enough to tell me what the best thing is to do...and maybe point me in the right direction.


So are the PDSA who probably wouldn't charge you an extortionate price for the referral in the right direction. If you have used them, they obviously have a history of your dog, so I can't think why, you haven't approached them for a referral to a qualified behaviourist, rather than trying to go things alone.

http://www.pdsa.org.uk/files/rpc_behaviour.pdf
http://www.apbc.org.uk/


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

JeanGenie said:


> So are the PDSA who probably wouldn't charge you an extortionate price for the referral in the right direction. If you have used them, they obviously have a history of your dog, so I can't think why, you haven't approached them for a referral to a qualified behaviourist, rather than trying to go things alone.
> 
> http://www.pdsa.org.uk/files/rpc_behaviour.pdf
> The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


This is really good advice MATMART.

Also the PDSA quite possibly have experience with owners in need of help for serious problems. I'm really not sure if the same is true of the trainer you're planning on speaking to. Please don't agree to pay any big fee to him unless he has experience in helping aggressive dogs.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

Look, I know its a very emotional time, but you need to so what is best for your dog and not what is best for you.

Keeping her alive for your own emotional sake, I think, is cruel.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I think you have to be very objective here mart mart and think about things logically.

1. What does your SIL say? If she is adamant that she wants the dog PTS then you have very little choice.
2. If SIL is amenable to your plan then a vet examination to see whether there are any physical reasons for your dog's behaviour.
3. If the dog is physically OK then vet referral to a behaviourist. 
4. As you didn't have the money to PTS will you have the funds to pay for behavioural assessment and treatment or will your insurance cover it?
5. Are you prepared to put in place management strategies for the dog for the remainder of her life and never let your guard down again?

I think that it's dangerous for you to be offered and to grasp false hope without first establishing (writing down) what you can realistically expect to achieve.

For what it is worth I do remain "pro PTS" as you put it when reading your account of what happened. I do wish you strength in making the right decision for your dog, whatever it may be.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

astro2011 said:


> Why waste money on someone who can point you in the right direction? People here are telling you the correct routes. I hope you listen to the advice.


REALLY???? OMG.... this statement scares me big time!! yes, I can see a lot of good advice SOMETIMES on here, but, PHEW!! you are so wrong in my eyes!!..... and I do not speak of whats right or wrong in the instance of the OP's awful predicament....in which my heart goes out to him...


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

No idea what your on about. I was simply stating that a behaviourist is what's needed not a dog trainer.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

astro2011 said:


> No idea what your on about. I was simply stating that a behaviourist is what's needed not a dog trainer.


Typo I think. You mean't "can't" ? Doesn't make sense with "can".


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Oops damn iPhone I do apologise. I meant can't .


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I think you have to be very objective here mart mart and think about things logically.
> 
> 1. What does your SIL say? If she is adamant that she wants the dog PTS then you have very little choice.
> 2. If SIL is amenable to your plan then a vet examination to see whether there are any physical reasons for your dog's behaviour.
> ...


*SOLID GOLD* advice :thumbup1:

I would also like to add, that a lot does depend on your SIL. As it happened on private property (as I understand it) the DDA does not yet cover such incidents but she could still go to the police and make a civil claim.

However... IF you are under the wing of a _bona fide_ QUALIFIED behaviourist (such as those already mentioned, particularly the COAPE one) then that will go a great way to mitigating any backlash, legal or otherwise. Should the worst happen and the incident is repeated then you will truly and honestly be able to prove that you have done your utmost to be a responsible owner, including getting the best possible help and assistance.

I understand how difficult it is for you at the moment, but the fact remains that the dog DID break the skin and cause injury, which is a fairly severe bite... how do you think it rated in the scale below?
4.04 The Bite Scale and How to Evaluate Aggression | Dog Star Daily

From your description it wasn't a nip... I was summoned to the police station myself under the DDA Section 3 when my Collie cross dog nipped (and tore) the jeans leg of a teenager cycling too fast and too close past him on the pavement. I know how terrifying anything like this can be. At least I was able to prove I was a responsible owner, with details of training classes, awards etc. and I sought the advice of a behaviourist after the incident (COAPE too, by coincidence).

You can only do your best, whatever that may be


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> REALLY???? OMG.... this statement scares me big time!! yes, I can see a lot of good advice SOMETIMES on here, but, PHEW!! you are so wrong in my eyes!!.....


Plenty of correct advice has been offered, in fact I think I was the first that suggested a reputable qualified BEHAVIOURIST was the way to go, in view of the seriousness of the situation. Others have given links to details of such professionals. This is not the time or place to be quibbling about the quality of advice on here, as some of us have been in very similar situations to the OP, which I think is an important and valuable point.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I haven't had the time to read all of this thread, but my heart goes out to you. I had a similar situation many years ago, and I chose to have the dog PTS rather than risk her being passed from hand to hand, growing ever more anxious (and, of course, aggressive). It broke my heart, because in the house she was the most affectionate creature, wonderful with family members and adored our cat. Unfortunately my children were young - of an age when they were running in and out of the house and leaving doors open without thinking, and although I would have liked to have spent time trying to sort her out (we had had training classes and a behaviourist) I didn't dare - I was too afraid that she would get out an do a lot of damage to a person or animal. 

I still feel guilty, even though I know I did the right thing. I felt that I'd betrayed her love and trust. 

If you have to choose this route with your dog, remember that you gave her several months of loving care that it seems she had never experienced before. That is a very great thing. You are doing your very best for her whatever path you choose to take.

God bless you both.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> Plenty of correct advice has been offered, in fact *I think I was the first that suggested a reputable qualified BEHAVIOURIST was the way to go,* in view of the seriousness of the situation. Others have given links to details of such professionals. *This is not the time or place to be quibbling about the quality of advice on here*, as some of us have been in very similar situations to the OP, which I think is an important and valuable point.


Not disputing this at all!! what I felt uneasy about is they suggested they had enough "advice" on here and why bother going elsewhere!!....thats all

and the second highlighted statement is my point exactly!.... PROFESSIONAL advice is needed for this poor man who is going through hell!!.... its not going to be found on on a forum of self opinionated people....just my thoughts thats all....just hope and pray he finds it for the sake of his dog and himself!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

MyMillie said:


> Not disputing this at all!! what I felt uneasy about is they suggested they had enough "advice" on here and why bother going elsewhere!!....thats all
> 
> and the second highlighted statement is my point exactly!.... PROFESSIONAL advice is needed for this poor man who is going through hell!!.... its not going to be found on on a forum of self opinionated people....just my thoughts thats all....just hope and pray he finds it for the sake of his dog and himself!


Nobody was saying not to seek professional advice and just go by advice given here, quite the opposite in fact. People were pointing the OP in the right direction of a vet check to rule out medical reasons followed by a referral to a reputable and qualified behaviourist. Who often won't take a case without a vet referral.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Sorry I cant reply individually....I'll try to as soon as I can but Im abit tired now. 

Just to let you know. I did call the dogman back but his phone was off...tried quite a few times. I've sent him a message via his site..whether he gets back to me or not I dont know. 

However... I have taken the advice here and emailed a behaviourist called Clare green via the link provided here. This I think is now my last hope. It may destroy me financially but she's worth it. 

I'll also talk to the PDSA tomorrow to see if they will do referrals. 

I haven't eaten a thing in 4 days and the way my stomach feels at this moment, I dont think i'll be eating any time soon. just saying


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2013)

Dogless said:


> I think you have to be very objective here mart mart and think about things logically.
> 
> 1. What does your SIL say? If she is adamant that she wants the dog PTS then you have very little choice.
> 2. If SIL is amenable to your plan then a vet examination to see whether there are any physical reasons for your dog's behaviour.
> ...


This... over and over.

You need to be realistic.

Can you realistically afford a behavioralist for however long your dog's behavior modification lasts?
Can you realistically do the work required to rehabilitate this dog?
Can you realistically manage this dog to make sure she does not have ANY opportunity to injure anyone?
Can you make a realistic decision about how long you're willing to work on this and what you're willing to do if behavior modification doesn't work?

A year ago you were asking for help, you knew then things would escalate, they did. 
What is different this time? Are you any different an owner now than you were a year ago? Is your situation any different? 
No judgement, just questions. And frankly, you don't need to answer me or anyone, just yourself and your dog.

No one is "pro" PTS. No one wants to see a healthy dog euthanized. But like I said earlier, there are worse fates for a troubled dog than humane euthanasia in the hands of someone familiar.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

martmart said:


> Sorry I cant reply individually....I'll try to as soon as I can but Im abit tired now.
> 
> Just to let you know. I did call the dogman back but his phone was off...tried quite a few times. I've sent him a message via his site..whether he gets back to me or not I dont know.
> 
> ...


You need to eat, starting from breakfast tomorrow. You have an awful lot to do and need to be in a fit state to make the correct decisions. Even if you don't feel like it get something down you.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Do let us know if you hear back from this other behaviourist? And try to eat something - I know you probably don't have any appetite but you need your strength


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> .... its not going to be found on on a forum of self opinionated people....


And there you go again... just when some logical, solid advice is being offered to the OP, you are undermining it by calling those who are taking the time and trouble to advise by calling them self-opinionated... with a lot of hysteria and many exclamation marks.

Have you ever been in a similar situation yourself? Some of us here have. So we are offering the benefit and wisdom of our experience.... while you are offering exclamation marks, and casting aspersions on those who are trying to calmly guide the OP through an incredibly difficult and emotional time.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Meezey said:


> I would listen to the advise, I'd contact a qualified behaviorist, don't waste your money on a Dog Trainer, he will have great experience training dogs, but he's not a behaviorist. If you want to have any chance of not having to have your dog PTS on Wednesday, do the right thing, by your family and your dog, and contact a behaviorist, of something can be done to save your dog, then these are the people who are going to be able to do it...
> 
> I know emotions are running high right now, sit down think logically and take a look at your own pictures of your dog and do what's right her, no more excuses, no more what you think happened, or what you think is wrong, get the correct professional advise from the correct professional if you love your dog, and your niece you will do the right thing by them


thankyou...I have taken the advice.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> No one is "pro" PTS. No one wants to see a healthy dog euthanized. But like I said earlier, there are worse fates for a troubled dog than humane euthanasia in the hands of someone familiar.


Amen to that


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> And there you go again... just when some logical, solid advice is being offered to the OP, you are undermining it by calling those who are taking the time and trouble to advise by calling them self-opinionated... with a lot of hysteria and many exclamation marks.
> 
> Have you ever been in a similar situation yourself? Some of us here have. So we are offering the benefit and wisdom of our experience.... while you are offering exclamation marks, and casting aspersions on those who are trying to calmly guide the OP through an incredibly difficult and emotional time.


Wow, whatever! I was SIMPLY commenting on the advice from astro2011 telling OP to not bother seeking help from a professional and to just listen to the ones on here!!.....

never mind, I wont say anymore!....

OP, just know I feel how devastating all this is for you, and after just reading that you arent eating is only going to make things worse for you, you need sustenance if you are going to make right decisions....bless you, my thoughts and heart is with you...


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

ouesi said:


> This... over and over.
> 
> You need to be realistic.
> 
> Can you realistically afford a behavioralist for however long your dog's behavior modification lasts?


I'll wait to hear whats said... if its not realistic, I'll pts..this is why I haven't yet cancelled my appointment, however tempting it is at this moment.



> Can you realistically do the work required to rehabilitate this dog?


If I have a clear understanding of what to do and what is required and nothing left to guessing...then yes. 


> Can you realistically manage this dog to make sure she does not have ANY opportunity to injure anyone?


ofcourse... the flat i live in is very secure and i never ever have visitors...this was a complete one-off situation. no one will come in this flat again, thats for sure. Im not one for visitors anyway.



> Can you make a realistic decision about how long you're willing to work on this and what you're willing to do if behavior modification doesn't work?


I guess this is something that needs to be discussed with the behaviourist...Im sure she will tell me whats required of me and again, if unrealistic, then pts. 


> A year ago you were asking for help, you knew then things would escalate, they did.
> What is different this time? Are you any different an owner now than you were a year ago? Is your situation any different?
> No judgement, just questions. And frankly, you don't need to answer me or anyone, just yourself and your dog.


i've responded to try and answer the questions for myself rather than to you personally...but this question I can't answer. i really dont know. It maybe simply just the way I handle her, discipline her etc...I may be far to soft with her...even tho I feel Im not. Little things Im doing wrong could be adding to it... etc. I dont know. 
.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

martmart said:


> I'll wait to hear whats said... if its not realistic, I'll pts..this is why I haven't yet cancelled my appointment, however tempting it is at this moment.
> 
> If I have a clear understanding of what to do and what is required and nothing left to guessing...then yes.
> 
> ...


We all do the best we can at the time for our dogs, with the knowledge and skills we have at the time.

Hopefully the behaviourist will be able to offer you a clear set of guidelines and a realistic idea of what can and cannot be achieved.

Now eat something!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MyMillie said:


> Not disputing this at all!! what I felt uneasy about is they suggested they had enough "advice" on here and why bother going elsewhere!!....thats all
> 
> and the second highlighted statement is my point exactly!.... PROFESSIONAL advice is needed for this poor man who is going through hell!!.... its not going to be found on on a forum of self opinionated people....just my thoughts thats all....just hope and pray he finds it for the sake of his dog and himself!


There was some useful advice. I found the link for COAPE etc. Ultimately it's down to Malmart what advice is taken from here. But as is increasing the norm these days one does have to pick through the thread to find the constructive stuff


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

martmart said:


> It maybe simply just the way I handle her, *discipline her* etc...I may be far *to soft with her*...even tho I feel Im not. Little things Im doing wrong could be adding to it... etc. I dont know.
> .


No, no and no 
I know from experience when your dog does something dramatic, that's how you feel. Very easy to think about certain TV trainers (you know the one!) and think, well... what if I did that instead?

When what you really have is a troubled mind, and you won't even begin to understand it with force. Work from the bottom upwards, with kindness and understanding - first, do no harm.

Is it too late to go out and get a nice bag of hot chips with salt & vinegar? Do you have a can of Heinz tomato soup in the cupboard? Things feel a lot better on a full stomach. Bring your own stress levels down, little by little. or you won't be in the best place to deal with the stress demons in your dog


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> There was some useful advice. I found the link for COAPE etc. Ultimately it's down to Malmart what advice is taken from here. But as is increasing the norm these days one does have to pick through the thread to find the constructive stuff


yes...Im sorry, I did check that link out.....thanks for posting it!


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> And there you go again... just when some logical, solid advice is being offered to the OP, you are undermining it by calling those who are taking the time and trouble to advise by calling them self-opinionated... with a lot of hysteria and many exclamation marks.
> 
> Have you ever been in a similar situation yourself? Some of us here have. So we are offering the benefit and wisdom of our experience.... while you are offering exclamation marks, and casting aspersions on those who are trying to calmly guide the OP through an incredibly difficult and emotional time.


Give eachother a hug


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> No, no and no
> I know from experience when your dog does something dramatic, that's how you feel. Very easy to think about certain TV trainers (you know the one!) and think, well... what if I did that instead?
> 
> When what you really have is a troubled mind, and you won't even begin to understand it with force. Work from the bottom upwards, with kindness and understanding - first, do no harm.


well...what I said was just top of my head thoughts, but obviously so many mistakes have been made by me which have just added to her problem.



> Is it too late to go out and get a nice bag of hot chips with salt & vinegar? Do you have a can of Heinz tomato soup in the cupboard? Things feel a lot better on a full stomach. Bring your own stress levels down, little by little. or you won't be in the best place to deal with the stress demons in your dog


its a bit late now....I dont have any tinned food in...I have a bit of meat in my fridge...I was planning to do some shopping on friday...the meats gone off now...but I just can't face food at the moment anyway. I'll try tho


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

martmart said:


> its a bit late now....I dont have any tinned food in...I have a bit of meat in my fridge...I was planning to do some shopping on friday...the meats gone off now...but I just can't face food at the moment anyway. I'll try tho


bread and butter? cornflakes?  Got to keep your own strength up for your dog, you said you wanted to fight, and an army never marches on an empty stomach


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> bread and butter? cornflakes?  Got to keep your own strength up for your dog, you said you wanted to fight, and an army never marches on an empty stomach


no bread Im afraid....it would be off by now anyway same as the meat. I have butter and dog food.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I do hope the behaviourist gets back to you and can point you in the right direction. The stress you have/are going through is so immense that I can see why you have no appetite, I bet you feel sick most of the time and that's due to an empty stomach as well as stress - vicious cycle unfortunately. Even if you don't feel like food get yourself a loaf of bread, pull out the middle of a slice or two and squeeze it into little pill sized balls that you can swallow with coffee etc. I've done this just to line my stomach when I really can't face food and it helps bring your appetite back too. 

I feel so sorry about your financial situation, all your plans will be costly and I know we can't pull money out of a hat - such a crap situation to add to your woes. If only we had plenty of cash the world would be our oyster eh?

I hope your SIL is 'onside' with your plans and you don't put them into action only to have them later dashed. I would try talking to her to make some kind of peace if I were you and see if she can be swayed to change her stance on what she wants done. I'm not sure I agree with your decision but I do know if you don't get the professional advice you're now seeking you'll always wonder 'what if?', so I can see why you're doing it, as well as your feelings for your girl of course. 

You must have some kind of backing from your SIL though as she can call the shots and change everything, although I think she would have needed to at least have informed the police/community support officer before now in order for it to have been logged to have any backing - not sure on that though. Hopefully she'll talk to you now and try to see where you're coming from.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I do hope the behaviourist gets back to you and can point you in the right direction. The stress you have/are going through is so immense that I can see why you have no appetite, I bet you feel sick most of the time and that's due to an empty stomach as well as stress - vicious cycle unfortunately. Even if you don't feel like food get yourself a loaf of bread, pull out the middle of a slice or two and squeeze it into little pill sized balls that you can swallow with coffee etc. I've done this just to line my stomach when I really can't face food and it helps bring your appetite back too.
> 
> I feel so sorry about your financial situation, all your plans will be costly and I know we can't pull money out of a hat - such a crap situation to add to your woes. If only we had plenty of cash the world would be our oyster eh?
> 
> ...


Im not sure whats going to happen about my sis. We always got on great over the years, she's angry with me and has every right to be but I do want to make peace with her and see if she'll conditionally accept my compromise which would be to seek hep from a professional and prove that my dog is safe as I believe she is....(and Im not saying that because she's my dog and I dont want to lose her...I do strongly believe she is a safe dog0...but i nothing can be done with her, then she can accompany me to the pdsa and I'll have her put to sleep. I think I can just about manage the amount that was suggested on this thread...I think £1500.....anything more than that then pts it;ll have to be.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

I found this site after malnums post regarding when a bite has to be reported for action to be taken. If nothing else i thought some may find it good information for future reference should you ever get in the same boat as me.

My dog has bitten, the Police seized my dog | SafePets UK, Dog Trainers, Cat & dog behaviourists



> Some important points:
> 
> the police cannot tell you to put a dog down, only a court can do that
> the police can usually only seize a dog that is a continuing danger to the public, looks like a Pit Bull type or has committed a very serious attack under the DDA
> ...


martmart46's Library | Photobucket


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

martmart said:


> Im not sure whats going to happen about my sis. We always got on great over the years, she's angry with me and has every right to be but I do want to make peace with her and see if she'll conditionally accept my compromise which would be to seek hep from a professional and prove that my dog is safe as I believe she is....(and Im not saying that because she's my dog and I dont want to lose her...I do strongly believe she is a safe dog0...but i nothing can be done with her, then she can accompany me to the pdsa and I'll have her put to sleep. I think I can just about manage the amount that was suggested on this thread...I think £1500.....anything more than that then pts it;ll have to be.


Please be prepared for the worst; for a behaviourist to tell you that your dog is not, and never will be a safe one, you need to know the truth. They may also tell you that there is nothing to be done with her bar management - muzzle and lead, babygates within flat etc. There may well be no "fix" but instead careful management - it is whether you are prepared to adhere to that management *for life* without ever getting sloppy about it and taking chances because of what you believe due to the love you have for your dog. Even between the original attack and last night you had managed to convince yourself that it was not an aggressive attack, but probably excited nips - you need to remain honest with yourself, no matter how painful that is.

Hope you make going and buying some food your priority today.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> This... over and over.
> 
> You need to be realistic.
> 
> ...


Much worse. Being passed around, perhaps beaten because of actions you can't help because you feel frightened and alone, ending up perhaps abandoned again, or dumped in a refuge (if you're lucky) - this is no life for any dog.

Do I take it you aren't insured, Martmart? It's just that a lot of pet insurers will cover the cost of behavioural therapy. I would love to know the circumstances of the attack. How old is your niece? Is there any chance that she has done something (not necessarily deliberately)b which has provoked or frightened your dog? Remember - you don't know your dog's history - a hand stretched out to pet her may have been interpreted as a threat. How bad is the bite? I expect that you will never get the truth, as your niece is likely to try to cover up any actions of her own that were questionable (human nature, I'm afraid). Your SIL is upset and shocked and angry; you are upset and shocked and frightened. Don't do ANYTHING on the spur of the moment. See if you can contact the Citizen's Advice Bureau for advice on the legal side. As I understand it, unless this was a VERY serious attack (life-threatening, disabling, disfiguring) then euthanasia can't be forced on your dog and you can't be charged as it happened on your property. However you want to keep on good terms with your family if at all possible. 
Perhaps a trainer/behaviourist (or someone on this forum) could give you advice on how to accustom her to a muzzle, then she could be muzzled on walks, or when you have visitors (I imagine you have now started to put her into another room when you have company). As the previous poster has said, this will be a LIFETIME commitment - you can't afford to miss any of your precautions even once.

As I said on my previous post - I've been there myself and it is an awful decision. But please DON'T get yourself into debt or anything like that - it may be that subconsciously you want her to know how much you care, even though you know in your heart what the final result is likely to be.

Speak to the PDSA. Ask their professional advice. If you decide to give her another chance, make sure that you take every precaution. If you decide to let her go, try to keep as calm and as relaxed and as reassuring as you can, for her sake. You can collapse in tears afterwards. Love her enough to do the best thing for her, whatever that might be.

Every blessing to you both. I believe that God will look after both of you, no matter what.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

We had a rescue German Shepherd when I was younger.

If I remember correctly, she'd spent the first 11 months of her life shut in a shed.
My dad took her training, she was the star pupil. If something needed a demonstration, they used Tessa.
If my dad winked at her she would swing around to his side immediately. We had an enormous garden, she was well exercised, she did tracking, won obedience competitions, was loved and treated very well. 

Eventually she started growling at us, and things came to a head when my brother had a friend over after school. We'd just closed the door and she launched at the boy and bit his leg. Absolutely no reason for it.
It wasn't as bad as your nieces leg sounds, but she was PTS immediately.

It absolutely broke my dads heart, but sometimes you have to accept that the damage is already there, and no amount of training will change that fact.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Martmart I'm glad you are able to have Sasha assessed by a behaviourist for your own mental well being I think this is a good thing.

I hope that you are able whatever the result of the assessment to follow the recommendations.

Hopefully your family will be able to accept if the result of the assessment is in your dogs favour. To lose your family and or your dog would also be a terrible thing.

If you can get the assessment in writing so you can show your family a copy. Behaviourist perhaps automatically do this I don't know.

My heart goes out to you all, my very best wishes for the future. I hope and pray it all works out.

Now do eat before the behaviourist comes. Your brain will need food to be able to take in what the behaviourist says. If you are as I suspect living on coffee and the odd beer and not much else then you are limiting your abilities to help Sasha.

We need to care for ourselves in order to care for our dogs x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Hope you've had at least a slice of bread to eat this morning martmart, just lining your stomach.

Depending on what the behaviourist has to say, if its in your favour these people may be able to offer some advice on where you stand legally. 
About Us | a little more about who we are and what we do.

Thoughts are with you still.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I've been reading this thread from the beginning but not commented until now. I agree with Picklelily, don't do anything in panic. Now you have some facts at your disposal and know more of the law and where you stand, take your time, if necessary, go to CAB and get legal advice. If the behaviourist tells you that you can work with your dog to improve matters and avoid problems in future, it will be hard work and you would have to stick to it rigidly but you would still have your dog. If not, at least you will have tried your best and it will make the future easier rather than wondering 'what if'. I haven't forgotten the cost, of course, that will be an issue. You really need to look after yourself at this time too, do you have a friend or work colleague who could give you some support at the moment? I hope there will be a better ending to this than you are anticipating for all of you.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I want to be clear in saying I never meant not to seek professional help. That's all I've ever said on this thread, and that's what I meant on all my posts. I hope you hear back soon from the behaviourist. 

Wishing you luck.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

To those saying he is being cruel to the dog by not having her PTS. How is it cruel not having her PTS she isn't ill or suffering she bit someone so how is she suffering?

Good luck Mart mart hope you can sort something.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

koolchick said:


> To those saying he is being cruel to the dog by not having her PTS. How is it cruel not having her PTS she isn't ill or suffering she bit someone so how is she suffering?
> 
> Good luck Mart mart hope you can sort something.


This was the behaviour of a happy, relaxed, stress free dog?


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> This was the behaviour of a happy, relaxed, stress free dog?


Only the dogs owner knows if the dog is happy and how she is treated not people who have never met the dog. I've had a dog before who snapped at anyone who got her off settees and once she did bite me. It was my choice if we kept her or not and I chose to kee;p her and she never bit anyone else and she seemed happy. Doesn't everyone have days where they are not happy? Dogs are same surely just because a dog isn't happy one day doesn't mean they never will be.


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## MrsGiggles (Feb 12, 2013)

I hope you make the right choice but for me,I wouldn't be able to take the risk of it happening again. When I was younger we had a pyrenean mountain dog,I could do anything to it but my brother couldn't,one day,he pinned my brother in the corner of the room so he couldn't escape,and the dog was on his hind legs with my brothers arm in his mouth,when he let go of my brother,they wasn't a single mark on his arm but my mom told my dad that was it,the dog had to go,it broke my dads heart but he was pts


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

martmart said:


> but my dog got out and darted to her and badly bit her leg. I couldn't do anything to stop it...as I reached them my dogs front teeth we still tugging at her thigh....I didn't see the whole thing but this morning her mum tells me her leg is in a bad way and I believe this was a full blown attack of my neice. .





koolchick said:


> Only the dogs owner knows if the dog is happy and how she is treated not people who have never met the dog. I've had a dog before who snapped at anyone who got her off settees and once she did bite me. It was my choice if we kept her or not and I chose to kee;p her and she never bit anyone else and she seemed happy. Doesn't everyone have days where they are not happy? Dogs are same surely just because a dog isn't happy one day doesn't mean they never will be.


A bad day?


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

I know mart marts situation is different to mine but it doesn't mean the dog can't ever be happy thats why he is looking into getting the dog trained. I don't think anyone can say if a dog is happy or not without ever seeing the dog.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

koolchick said:


> I know mart marts situation is different to mine but it doesn't mean the dog can't ever be happy thats why he is looking into getting the dog trained. I don't think anyone can say if a dog is happy or not without ever seeing the dog.


Sometimes training the dog doesn't mean that the propensity to resort to undesirable (in human terms) behaviour is eradicated in any way, just that the owner has better control over the dog. If that control is ever lost then such a dog may well revert to aggression as a way to deal with things. That is why management is needed at all times, for life.

An example; my eldest dog used to lunge at traffic - obviously very dangerous indeed and I trained the dog out of the behaviour over two years ago. He has been as steady as anything around traffic ever since. Today he is on day 6 of lead only walks so has not had any of the controlled chasing and impulse control games we do offlead as an outlet for his intense desire to chase. This morning he lunged at a van and a lorry. Scared me stupid. Kilo under stress in terms of needing an outlet for his chasing behaviour reverted to behaviour that he hadn't displayed in years. It is still there.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

koolchick said:


> I know mart marts situation is different to mine but it doesn't mean the dog can't ever be happy thats why he is looking into getting the dog trained. I don't think anyone can say if a dog is happy or not without ever seeing the dog.


If martmart commits to keeping his dog it won't be a bit of light _training_. This will be a fulltime 24/7 management plan and working on behaviour modification which isn't fixed in 6 weeks in the local church hall.

I find this thread a little bemusing in that people who get very upset when their dogs are attacked and expect the police to act seem to have such a strangely polar view when it was a human.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2013)

koolchick said:


> Only the dogs owner knows if the dog is happy and how she is treated not people who have never met the dog. I've had a dog before who snapped at anyone who got her off settees and once she did bite me. It was my choice if we kept her or not and I chose to kee;p her and she never bit anyone else and she seemed happy. Doesn't everyone have days where they are not happy? Dogs are same surely just because a dog isn't happy one day doesn't mean they never will be.


To be honest, this is more than just an 'unhappy dog'.

Even dogs that are stressed and unhappy don't go on to attack a 16 year old girl, completely unprovoked. As Martmart has pointed out he knows the dog, and is there with her 24/7, rightly so he should point that out, we are just faceless entities behind computer screens.

Though I can't help but wonder whether Martmart should look through and have a good read at his previous threads concerning the dogs behaviour, take it all in and seriously absorb the previous information that was posted, all the 'markers' were there if you like, sadly it took the dog to bite someone before Martmart would even consider getting someone in to help with this dog, which is a very sad reality

I don't believe for one second the dog will ever be in the position of being considered 'safe' and I really hope that whoever goes out to see Martmart is sensible enough (rather than just take money) to advise on what kind of work it is really going to take to get this dogs behaviour addressed sensibly and seriously, or, I hope they are not backwards in coming forwards in explaining she may never be safe at all and that Martmart may only have one option.

I do agree with what Moonviolet says above.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Sometimes training the dog doesn't mean that the propensity to resort to undesirable (in human terms) behaviour is eradicated in any way, just that the owner has better control over the dog. If that control is ever lost then such a dog may well revert to aggression as a way to deal with things. That is why management is needed at all times, for life.
> 
> An example; my eldest dog used to lunge at traffic - obviously very dangerous indeed and I trained the dog out of the behaviour over two years ago. He has been as steady as anything around traffic ever since. Today he is on day 6 of lead only walks so has not had any of the controlled chasing and impulse control games we do offlead as an outlet for his intense desire to chase. This morning he lunged at a van and a lorry. Scared me stupid. *Kilo under stress in terms of needing an outlet for his chasing behaviour reverted to behaviour that he hadn't displayed in years. It is still there.*


The behaviourist that we work with said exactly the same of Molly and her lead reactivity. We can't ever just walk her without being completely aware of other dogs and will always have to manage this.

As Moonviolet correctly says, it's not an hour in a church hall. Behaviourist sessions are giving the owner skills that they will have to use for the dog's entire life. And that life has to be a viable quality of life for the dog.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> To be honest, this is more than just an 'unhappy dog'.
> 
> Even dogs that are stressed and unhappy don't go on to attack a 16 year old girl, completely unprovoked. As Martmart has pointed out he knows the dog, and is there with her 24/7, rightly so he should point that out, we are just faceless entities behind computer screens.
> 
> ...


It sounds like mart mart will accept that pts is the only option if the trainer tells him that. It sounds like he doesn't want to have his dog pts then find out he could of had her trained and let her have a happy life when its too late which I don't think anyone would want that sort of regret. I don't see the harm in finding out if anything can be done before having her pts.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> The behaviourist that we work with said exactly the same of Molly and her lead reactivity. We can't ever just walk her without being completely aware of other dogs and will always have to manage this.
> 
> As Moonviolet correctly says, it's not an hour in a church hall. Behaviourist sessions are giving the owner skills that they will have to use for the dog's entire life.* And that life has to be a viable quality of life for the dog.*


Agreed, although I would add "for* both* the dog *and owner*" to the bolded part.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

koolchick said:


> It sounds like mart mart will accept that pts is the only option if the trainer tells him that. It sounds like he doesn't want to have his dog pts then find out he could of had her trained and let her have a happy life when its too late which I don't think anyone would want that sort of regret. I don't see the harm in finding out if anything can be done before having her pts.


It isn't as simple as "having the dog trained for a happy life" though as I tried to explain in my previous posts. It would be ongoing work and management for the rest of the dog's life. Not just a quick training course, job done.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Agreed, although I would add "for* both* the dog *and owner*" to the bolded part.


Absolutely agree.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2013)

koolchick said:


> It sounds like mart mart will accept that pts is the only option if the trainer tells him that. It sounds like he doesn't want to have his dog pts then find out he could of had her trained and let her have a happy life when its too late which I don't think anyone would want that sort of regret. I don't see the harm in finding out if anything can be done before having her pts.


Honestly it doesn't have to take a behaviourist to tell you that your dog is a danger, plenty of people with a wealth of experience have already said this, you don't need to see the dog to observe this, Martmart themselves was already aware the dog was displaying worrying behaviour.

It's also perfectly reasonable to suggest the dog may do well with someone with more experience than Martmart of the breed, whichever way you look at it, it's still a huge risk and I really don't know anyone in this day and age with dog bite statistic's on the rise that would sensibly be willing to take such a risk because whatever anyone says, there can be no promises made, or guarantee's.

The dog needs a serious management plan in place, Martmart has to be 100% committed to this to ensure no such accident ever happens again, if it did, the next person may not be so lucky, and may not be as patient as Martmart's SIL concerning putting in a complaint about the dog, if this was to happen again I wouldn't be surprised if the dog was seized and pts, in reality that's a position no one would want to be in.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Please be prepared for the worst; for a behaviourist to tell you that your dog is not, and never will be a safe one, you need to know the truth. They may also tell you that there is nothing to be done with her bar management - muzzle and lead, babygates within flat etc. There may well be no "fix" but instead careful management - it is whether you are prepared to adhere to that management *for life* without ever getting sloppy about it and taking chances because of what you believe due to the love you have for your dog.


There is nothing that will ever prepare me for being told its best to PTS, but I take in what you say, and I know myself that a behaviourist who sees my dog tells me that the kindest thing for her would be to PTS, then I will be kind to her however much it will break my heart.



> Even between the original attack and last night you had managed to convince yourself that it was not an aggressive attack, but probably excited nips - you need to remain honest with yourself, no matter how painful that is.


I still believe it was over excitement but Im going to get her assessed properly by a pro...I've heard from one from the CAPBT site who isn;t taking any new clients at present but has advised me not to rush into the decision to pts, ...she actually advised me to go to the CAPBT site which is where I found her, lol. There is no problem for me to fully commit to her...I never have visitors and this was a first time in 2 years, the back is very secure and is impossible for her to ever get out......now I know for certain what sasha is capable of, with some help from a professional I know I can commit to her 100%. This is a harsh and painful lesson for me and can absolutely guarentee that it won't happen again because I won't allow anyone in the flat.



> Hope you make going and buying some food your priority today.


I've been here before in a totally different way, so what im feeling inside is a feeling I know very well and the last time it was a good 3 weeks before I put the first bit of food inside me. I know I should eat, and now Im more relaxed...still stressed, but a bit more at ease knowing Im not PTSing her until such time Im told its best, I might be able to get something down me later.

thanks


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2013)

martmart said:


> There is nothing that will ever prepare me for being told its best to PTS, but I take in what you say, and I know myself that a behaviourist who sees my dog tells me that the kindest thing for her would be to PTS, then I will be kind to her however much it will break my heart.
> 
> I still believe it was over excitement but Im going to get her assessed properly by a pro...I've heard from one from the CAPBT site who isn;t taking any new clients at present but has advised me not to rush into the decision to pts, ...she actually advised me to go to the CAPBT site which is where I found her, lol. There is no problem for me to fully commit to her...I never have visitors and this was a first time in 2 years, the back is very secure and is impossible for her to ever get out......now I know for certain what sasha is capable of, with some help from a professional I know I can commit to her 100%. This is a harsh and painful lesson for me and can absolutely guarentee that it won't happen again because I won't allow anyone in the flat.
> 
> ...


I do hope you are feeling much better Martmart. I don't think we ever really come to terms with loosing our dogs, do we? Whatever the circumstances.

Please be kind to yourself, if you don't eat, your no good to your dogs.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

But OP, you posted this almost a year ago, and it was clear that you KNEW that this situation could escalate to aggression:


> My staffyx (as I've been lead to believe she is) bitch is becoming more and more difficult to handle. *Shes becoming more and more frustrated because she can't get the exercise she needs*. Infact, the only things I can give her are food, drink and on-lead walks which just isn't enough for her. She needs far much more than Im able to give her. Her energy level is way above mine and Im struggling to look after myself, let alone a dog like this. Im feeling really down at the moment because I don't want to get rid of her, but this is the only answer now... *she needs proper care from someone who is better equipped to handle this breed and deal with the ever growing amount of issues that I don't know how to deal with nor have the right level of patience to deal with*. She;s becoming frustrated and *Im starting to fear that this frustration will eventually lead to aggression*. She is a lovely, and loving dog and needs to be around people and not stuck in kennels which I feel will not be good for her. I just can't do this any more! I made a big mistake keeping her after I found her and its doing neither of us any good.


Why did you wait until her behaviour escalated to this point before deciding that you can comit to working with her?

You may be able to guarantee that nobody ever comes into your flat but can you potentially guarantee this for the rest of the dog's life?


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

lostbear said:


> Much worse. Being passed around, perhaps beaten because of actions you can't help because you feel frightened and alone, ending up perhaps abandoned again, or dumped in a refuge (if you're lucky) - this is no life for any dog.


she does have seperation anxiety and goes nuts if I tie her up if I need to go to a shop breifly. this is obviously due to being left tied to railings by her previous owner.



> Do I take it you aren't insured, Martmart? It's just that a lot of pet insurers will cover the cost of behavioural therapy. I would love to know the circumstances of the attack. How old is your niece? Is there any chance that she has done something (not necessarily deliberately)b which has provoked or frightened your dog? Remember - you don't know your dog's history - a hand stretched out to pet her may have been interpreted as a threat.


My niece is 16. No, my niece did nothing wrong, the dog was in the back out the way cos my niece isn't really a dog lover anyway, and I do it, not out of concern really, but more out of respect. As my niece was leaving, I went to fetch her something ..but as I opened the door where the dog was...she came shooting out so fast, I had no time to react. Totally my fault. There was no kind of provocation from my niece.



> How bad is the bite? I expect that you will never get the truth, as your niece is likely to try to cover up any actions of her own that were questionable (human nature, I'm afraid).


Yea thats probably true generally, but not the case here Im afraid.



> Your SIL is upset and shocked and angry; you are upset and shocked and frightened. Don't do ANYTHING on the spur of the moment. See if you can contact the Citizen's Advice Bureau for advice on the legal side. As I understand it, unless this was a VERY serious attack (life-threatening, disabling, disfiguring) then euthanasia can't be forced on your dog and you can't be charged as it happened on your property. However you want to keep on good terms with your family if at all possible.


As I said in an earlier post way back...I think if this dogs intensions were to hurt my niece, I strongly believe the damage would've been far worse.


> Perhaps a trainer/behaviourist (or someone on this forum) could give you advice on how to accustom her to a muzzle, then she could be muzzled on walks, or when you have visitors (I imagine you have now started to put her into another room when you have company). As the previous poster has said, this will be a LIFETIME commitment - you can't afford to miss any of your precautions even once.


I do have a muzzle for her, and do want help with getting her to accept it on her. Putting her in another room is something I would do anyway, I always did with my chihuahua when I had visitors. He'd get over excited when someone was out the door..I generally do it out of respect. (my chi has bitten more people over his 13 years of life, and he has quite a nasty bite too...he's a lot more calm in his old age now tho)



> Speak to the PDSA. Ask their professional advice. If you decide to give her another chance, make sure that you take every precaution. If you decide to let her go, try to keep as calm and as relaxed and as reassuring as you can, for her sake. You can collapse in tears afterwards. Love her enough to do the best thing for her, whatever that might be.


I've been to the pdsa earlier. I haven't cancelled the appointment for tomorrow but have changed the reason now. She is going to have a health check to rule out any issues, then I want to make an appoitment with a behaviorist. Im still waiting for replies on that one. btw, I dont have insurance, but what I've read so far, I may have enough to cover costs provided that the issues are such that it wouldn't be too exceed by a long way, the amount I can afford...then I will make the decision to pts.



> Every blessing to you both. I believe that God will look after both of you, no matter what.


thankyou


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Dimwit said:


> But OP, you posted this almost a year ago, and it was clear that you KNEW that this situation could escalate to aggression:
> 
> Why did you wait until her behaviour escalated to this point before deciding that you can comit to working with her?
> 
> You may be able to guarantee that nobody ever comes into your flat but can you potentially guarantee this for the rest of the dog's life?


Yes I can guarentee that...if you saw where I lived you'd understand.

Another thing you'd have to understand about what you quoted me is...you'd have to understand me. I have a few anxiety issues as well (maybe this has payed some part in her behaviour)...Im something of a "worrit" (as I've been decribed at times by others) and can easily exaggerate the most minor things into something major. Thats just me in general.

What you quoted there was last year....just because I havent posted on here with updates, it doesnt mean I haven't made some kind of efforts... since then I made more efforts to to deal with some behaviiurs, unfortuately I relied on youtube videos and whatnot to work with her, but I know she really needed professional help. Something I now regret more than anything for not doing this before. We can all be guilty of procrastination until something happens, not just with dogs, but with anything....and its easy to complain to someone and ask why we didn't do this or that in the past, after something has happened. Im guilty of that...I get it from my dad who is worse than anyone for it. We all screw up, and I made the ultimate screw up with my dog. Guilty as charged but lets not dwell on that now... I just want to focus on what I can do for her now, not what I should have done last year... massive regret on my part, but whats done is done.... "should have, could have" doesn't do anything productive. Ive learned my lesson now and I know in my heart it just can possibly happen again. You need to know me, and to know my life to understand how I can be 100% certain that this will never happen again.

btw... I give her far more exercise than I did last year...she's a lot more calm around the house and doesn't chew things up.....we always go for long walks along the canal or near the river...all safe places for offlead.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

martmart if you do decided that you are going to keep her get her a crate you can pick up second hand ones so she has a den out of harms way,dont tie her up ever.:001_smile:


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

give the man a break,.. it is always easy to ask for why's about the past. is it not the present actions that count the most?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2013)

martmart said:


> btw... I give her far more exercise than I did last year...she's a lot more calm around the house and doesn't chew things up.....we always go for long walks along the canal or near the river...all safe places for offlead.


Please don't allow her off lead anymore.....


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MATMART sorry can I just clarify one thing?

In a post earlier on this page you mention that Sasha gets separation anxiety if you 'tie her up' while you go into a shop 


Just a bit concerned because what if a child or even an adult tried to pet her? 


Apologies if I have somehow misunderstood  Hope you have eaten a bit now


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

martmart said:


> she does have seperation anxiety *and goes nuts if I tie her up if I need to go to a shop briefly. * this is obviously due to being left tied to railings by her previous owner.


This bit worries me.....


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> MATMART sorry can I just clarify one thing?
> 
> In a post earlier on this page you mention that Sasha gets separation anxiety if you 'tie her up' while you go into a shop
> 
> ...


Nah... just a rare occassion in the first month or so when I first had her when I felt the need to call in a shop...she whines a lot... and if people do approach her she barks at them way before they get close...as she did with me on the first day I found her. Not something I do now cos I don't like her being worried that Im going to leave her.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

martmart said:


> Nah... just a rare occassion in the first month or so when I first had her when I felt the need to call in a shop...she whines a lot... and if people do approach her she barks at them way before they get close...as she did with me on the first day I found her. Not something I do now cos I don't like her being worried that Im going to leave her.


Er to be honest I would be more worried that she might bite anyone who tried to touch her!

Or is it only at your home that Sasha displays a high level of aggression/fear etc?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

> she does have seperation anxiety and goes nuts if I tie her up if I need to go to a shop breifly. this is obviously due to being left tied to railings by her previous owner.


You should never EVER ever tie her up like that. Of course she goes nuts, why would you continue to do that to her?

I don't mean to sound like I am attacking, I have been sympathetic to your plight throughout, but to continue to tie her up while you "go in a shop", knowing she "goes nuts" and considering her history. I cannot understand that at all.

<edit> ah I see I'm not the first to address this. However, your posts are extremely inconsistent and contradictory. First you make it sound like this is something you do regularly. Now, when you've been called on it, you say you only did it in the first month she was there.

I think you need to start being honest with people here, and yourself.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Matmart did say he no longer leaves the dog tied up. I would also be keeping her on a leash at all times.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

lorilu said:


> You should never EVER ever tie her up like that. Of course she goes nuts, why would you continue to do that to her?
> 
> I don't mean to sound like I am attacking, I have been sympathetic to your plight throughout, but to continue to tie her up while you "go in a shop", knowing she "goes nuts" and considering her history. I cannot understand that at all.


read the reponse to the other person who picked up on that...PLEAE STOP PICKING ME UP ON EVERYTHING I SAY...IM GETTING REALLY ANNOYED NOW!!!!!!! I've taken peopls points throughout this thread, even some of the more harsh sounding ones....but I;ve listened and taken it all on board. This is getting silly now...nitpicking every little thing I say. "OH GOSH HORROR... WHY DID U DO THAT????????????"..... This was LAST YEAR... ONCE OR TWICE WITHIN THE FIRST FEW MONTHS... THE SITUATION WAS UNAVOIDABLE BUT WHEN I SAW HER REACTION ITS SOMETHING I STOPPED DOING!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE READ THE THINGS I WRITE AND STOP JUDGING ME OR JUMPING TO CONLUSIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

martmart said:


> *I still believe it was over excitement* but Im going to get her assessed properly by a pro...I've heard from one from the CAPBT site who isn;t taking any new clients at present but has advised me not to rush into the decision to pts, ...she actually advised me to go to the CAPBT site which is where I found her, lol. There is no problem for me to fully commit to her...I never have visitors and this was a first time in 2 years, the back is very secure and is impossible for her to ever get out......now I know for certain what sasha is capable of, with some help from a professional I know I can commit to her 100%. This is a harsh and painful lesson for me and can absolutely guarentee that it won't happen again because I won't allow anyone in the flat.


Whatever the cause a bite is a bite is a bite. I allowed myself to participate in a "set up" with a behaviourist. All very stressful and in hindsight very stupid on my behalf. My eldest dog used to jump and bite at me whenever he felt stressed, frustrated and unsure but hasn't done it for about 18 months after I really upped his impulse control training. In this set up he launched himself at the trainer and bounced and bit, repeatedly, until I was told to call him away. I was shocked, upset, horrified, devastated as I had never thought that he would do that. Thinking about it rationally he was displaying exactly the same frustrated behaviour as he had done with me in the past. So, excitement you could say.

Yet, it was still a bite (or bites). He didn't break skin and caused very slight bruising - a "2" I'd say on the bite scale http://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Ian Dunbar Dog Bite Scale.pdf and fits with the "obnoxious, rambunctious behaviour" description.

His trigger is lone people appearing in very quiet places. Prior to this "Set up" he had never made contact with anyone as I had always successfully recalled him when a person appeared. The point of the exercise was to see what he would do if not directed by me, if my control somehow failed. He is now muzzled where I do not have a clear view ahead / behind me and he is offlead or on a longline. We have not had a failure of control still (touch wood!) but now I know that a bite is a possibility *no matter what emotional state drives it* I must mitigate against that risk forever.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

I've spoken to a behaviourist, ..its not looking good based on what I described...tho she couldn't say anything more obviously until she had assessed the dog. She went into great detail about the process, what to expect, etc.. who she can refer me to should my SiL get the police involved and how legal support will be very expensive. 

I've got a very difficult decision tomorrow as to whether to go ahead with this or say my final goodbye to her. THis is now my decision so no advice necessary... thanks everyone for the support ....I may besee you in Rainbow Bridge after all.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Frankly, I might be unpopular for saying this and have no wish to kick a man when he is down, I do understand what a turmoil you are going through, but you have shown neither the inclination nor the ability to manage this dog so far. 

I seriously doubt you will be able to, even given a behaviorists assistance, manage this dogs needs for the rest of her life. You show absolutely no understanding of the time and effort the sort of management and behaviour adjustment training she will need for the rest of her life, nor any grasp of how seriously dangerous she could be.

You have acknowledged her aggression in the past, so what part of your brain thinks it was ok to tie her up outside shops when it clearly distressed her, or let her off leash in public spaces, and it sounds like you have not even bothered to muzzle train her. You say you have been relying on you tube etc but there is more than enough information out there for you to have been able to manage her needs better than you have .

All the love in the world will not and has not kept her safe. I am not saying that having her humanly euthanized is the best thing for her, but it really sounds like the best thing given the circumstances. Keeping her if you can't have/dont have the skills and tools in place to manage her is for your benefit only so you dont have to feel terrible about the choice, sorry but thats the way it is.

Well done for giving her a chance but sometimes we have to put our own sensibilities and misery aside. I so hope you can prove me wrong.

ETA sorry I was typing this as you posted but I am going to leave it up as its important for those who have felt a little 'training' might have sorted Sasha out. I am really sorry you are going through this, truly.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I did read it. And then I read how you changed it. I think you say what you think people want to hear. Good luck to you and your dog.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

apologies for my little outburst above. It came as a result of speaking to the behaviorists.. those "nitpicky" posts got to me a bit. Almost veryone here has been very supportive. 

I try to be as truthful as possible in the words I say, but sometimes I find it difficult to explain things accurately. I have a very cloudy memory at the best of times and at the moment Im in the worste of times. . Some times I don't describe in full detail because its easier on a public forum, and with my state of mind at the moment, and with a crappy laptop keyboard to just simplify things a bit. Please don't jump on me for the tiniest little thing...if you want an explanation in a fuller context, then PM me and I'm happy to explain in detail...but with so many wonderful responses and trying to keep up, its not easy. 

Again, I apologies for my outburst...just overwhelmed at the moment.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> .I'm surprised this hasn't been reported TBH.
> I hope you have offered to pay the child's medical bills.


Why? is the OP living in the UK? the child's parents wouldn't have been out of pocket for the medical bills.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I think many of us will be thinking of you tomorrow MATMART.

Please do come back tomorrow, I know it seems like some of us are 'nitpicking' but honestly, we're just trying to get a clear view of the situation so that we can try and advise. Of course as none of us has met Sasha, or you, we are limited in what we can really suggest - but I do believe that we all really feel for you and Sasha x


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2013)

martmart said:


> I've spoken to a behaviourist, ..its not looking good based on what I described...tho she couldn't say anything more obviously until she had assessed the dog. She went into great detail about the process, what to expect, etc.. who she can refer me to should my SiL get the police involved and how legal support will be very expensive.
> 
> I've got a very difficult decision tomorrow as to whether to go ahead with this or say my final goodbye to her. THis is now my decision so no advice necessary... thanks everyone for the support ....I may besee you in Rainbow Bridge after all.


I'm sorry.

In a lot of ways, even though a telephone call, this was probably someone that spoke a lot of sense. There would be a couple of organizations that could help you with advice if your SIL goes down the police route. Endangered dogs defense is one Dog Law Advice - UK Canine Law Information for Dog Owners and the Bull Breed Advisory Service ** The Bull Breed Advisory Service - Home and finally, Trevor Cooper Doglaw - SPECIALIST ADVICE ON DOG LAW

She's was completely right when she said legal support will be very expensive as I suspect it may be hard to get Legal Aid funding on cases like this now, as the rules changed on Legal Aid on the 1st April this year.

Even people fighting social services to get their children back are finding it hard to get themselves legally covered under the new rules, so I suppose there is much less chance for a dog.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

martmart said:


> in the meantime...here is my photobucket page with all the pictures of my dog up to the most recent.
> 
> martmart46's Library | Photobucket


I haven't been on here for a day or two.. so i've just seen the pictures of your girl - she is beautiful :001_wub: , what lovely colourings! Oh and, i hope you've eaten by now!


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> Frankly, I might be unpopular for saying this and have no wish to kick a man when he is down, I do understand what a turmoil you are going through, but you have shown neither the inclination nor the ability to manage this dog so far. [
> 
> I seriously doubt you will be able to, even given a behaviorists assistance, manage this dogs needs for the rest of her life. You show absolutely no understanding of the time and effort the sort of management and behaviour adjustment training she will need for the rest of her life, nor any grasp of how seriously dangerous she could be.
> 
> ...


so many assumptions in there, i just dont have the energy to address anything. Everything you said was said as "fact" . There has been a year since my last posts on sasah. You have no idea who I am, what I have tried to do for the dog, what Im capable of or my situation at home. This is the most judgemental post I've seen on this thread.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Nothing to add, no advice to give, other than I feel for the turmoil you are in, and am thinking of you.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

I say again,.. this discussion needs to be over until further developements are done. I think the OP needs to get back offline do the things and worry less what has been said here.

Others just need to drop the subject too. We all tried helping in our own ways. 

I am not a mod but i would like to pretend close this thread lol


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

hushtalk said:


> I say again,.. this discussion needs to be over until further developements are done. I think the OP needs to get back offline do the things and worry less what has been said here.
> 
> Others just need to drop the subject too. We all tried helping in our own ways.
> 
> I am not a mod but i would like to pretend close this thread lol


i agree. I;ve had an amazing reponse from people here. I dont use forums much generally but the ones I've used before, you;d be lucky to get a response and if you do, its usually hateful.

I can honestly say, regardless of the way some of the posts have come across, that none have been hateful. For some of the harsh responses, I imagine its an emotional thing for them too because it brings back their own bad memories of what Im going through now. Some people may come across harsh in the thread, but in real life, they could say exactly the same thing but come across totally differently. But however people come across, the one thing I do know is its not out of malice that people come across harshly but because they care about dogs, and maybe about the humans too to some degree. After all, a good owner makes a good dog for the most part, and we all want good dogs and want the owners to be good and thats what most people strive for I suppose.

I couldn't have asked for more from the people who took part in this thread and all I can do is thank you all from the bottom of my heart for showing in your own ways that you do care.

I would like to ask that this thread be locked as hushtalk suggested...I'll post an update tomorrow.

thankyou all once again!


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

martmart said:


> I've spoken to a behaviourist, ..its not looking good based on what I described...tho she couldn't say anything more obviously until she had assessed the dog. She went into great detail about the process, what to expect, etc.. who she can refer me to should my SiL get the police involved and how legal support will be very expensive.
> 
> I've got a very difficult decision tomorrow as to whether to go ahead with this or say my final goodbye to her. THis is now my decision so no advice necessary... thanks everyone for the support ....I may besee you in Rainbow Bridge after all.


Have you spoken to your SiL since you saw your niece? is she likely to get the police involved? Are you going to have a behavior therapist see the dog before you decide what to do? I know most on here think you should have her PTS but if you do without finding out if you can help her you could live rest of your life regretting having her PTS. At least if you make wrong decision and don't have her PTS you can correct it.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Poor you, sorry you didn't get the response you wanted from the behaviourist. 

I'm one who said I think pts is the best option but that's easy when it's not your dog eh? When I look at mine and think 'what if it were him/her?' it makes me feel very sad for you. Tough, tough time indeed and lets not forget 'There but for the grace of God go I' Good luck martmart.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

koolchick said:


> Have you spoken to your SiL since you saw your niece? is she likely to get the police involved? Are you going to have a behavior therapist see the dog before you decide what to do? I know most on here think you should have her PTS but if you do without finding out if you can help her you could live rest of your life regretting having her PTS. At least if you make wrong decision and don't have her PTS you can correct it.


I really can't face my SiL. I wont go into the reasons because I'll only get jumped on here by people who don't know the facts about my SiL or family in general and will make assumptions or pick up on something contradictary or just generally nitpick.

Believe me, she is my only barrier to not PTS'ing and I can't take the risk of not doing it....I believe, or fear, based on how my dog looks, that she will be seized if she calls the police in. If it wasn't for her, I'd be going for it but after what the behaviorist said, I can't take the risk. edit I;d prefer her to fall asleep in my arms than in the hands of the police, stuck in kennels, miserable, frighted etc.

I will miss her affection so much, one that I'd never had from my chihuahua as much...well...he's too small and not cuddly like sash and is only affectionate when he wants something...hehe.

One of the things I love about sash is how she always snuggles up with me on the settee, always jumps on the bed with me...sometimes taking up all the space (single bed). I will miss all of that and all the little annoyances. and I think now i've experienced this affection, sometime in the future I will try and find a dog that I can take in, maybe one thts just as cuddly and affectionate but one, hopefully less demanding and lesser energy than myself.

but there will be no dog that can replace sasha and I will miss her so much


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Isn't it worth having someone assess your dog before you make a decision. Would your SiL get the police involved? It sounds like you have decided to have her PTS. Honestly if you have decided that things will start to get easier once she's gone at least then you can start to come to terms with the loss. Getting another dog when you feel ready does help and you can love another dog as much as you love her. Maybe not as soon as you get another dog but in time you can.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2013)

koolchick said:


> Isn't it worth having someone assess your dog before you make a decision. Would your SiL get the police involved? It sounds like you have decided to have her PTS. Honestly if you have decided that things will start to get easier once she's gone at least then you can start to come to terms with the loss. Getting another dog when you feel ready does help and you can love another dog as much as you love her. Maybe not as soon as you get another dog but in time you can.


I know you probably meant that first sentence in a well meaning way, but don't make this any harder for Marmart now he has made a decision.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

koolchick said:


> Isn't it worth having someone assess your dog before you make a decision. Would your SiL get the police involved?


Every penny I could spend on her to keep her alive would be worth it and yea, my SiL would most definiately report it which would push the costs up way higher than I could afford. I was told the whole process from initial assessment (which is £150) could run up to £300 to £500... This would be no problem for me and if it wasn't for my SiL i would do it.



> It sounds like you have decided to have her PTS. Honestly if you have decided that things will start to get easier once she's gone at least then you can start to come to terms with the loss.


Trust me, the battle in my mind is immense.. one minute... "I just can't do it".....next "welll...its probably for the best"....etc I bet a few know that feeling.... but im trying to resign myself to it and let the big daft lump go. The PDSA is just at the end of the back alley where I live and I've now started to call it the green mile,...her final walk along that path to her permanent sleep.



> Getting another dog when you feel ready does help and you can love another dog as much as you love her. Maybe not as soon as you get another dog but in time you can.


It'll be hard to think about that so soon after...but after sasha, I dont think I can be without a dog like her. So there might come a time when I look for a rescue dog....maybe one that no one else wants because of some,, eg: physical imperfection or something. Or hopefully, (hopefully not ofcourse depending on how you look at it) some idiot will leave another dog on the same railings and I;ll get to it before someone else does and go through the whole thing again. (I believe one was found near there not long after I'd found sasha...the opposite end of the park)

btw...I did reply to your PM but Im not sure if you got it..I had a bit of an internet browser screw up. thanks for all your support tho! (I think you want her alive more than me..hehe) I wish there was a place I could just escape to with my dogs where no one can find us. Just the 3 of us with everything we need. lol (dreaming)


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I hope you get the answers you want today but I'm sure whatever you decide it will be the correct thing to do for Sasha.

I will be thinking of you this afterrnoon if it is she needs to be PTS then she will be safe at the birdge and free from any problems with my old man Japser untill you meet again.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Just wanted to say you are in my heart today.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Thinking of you on this sad day


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## j4nfr4n (Mar 10, 2013)

Big hugs for both you and Sasha being sent.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Thinking of you today


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Thinking of you.... please stay strong &#9829;, we are all here for you


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Hi mart mart no I didn't get your replies to my last pm. Thinking of you today. Try to see today as the day you can start coming to terms with whats happened and moving on. Just a nicer way to see it than whats going to happen.

Of course you wont want to think of getting another dog just yet you will need to come to terms with losing sasha first and that could take a few week or month even but in time you will be able to think of it. 

Every dog is different and no dog can ever replace another dog. With any dog there will be things you love about them that no other dog does. Like you say Sasha curls up on your bed and settee withyou. That is what my last dog did with me and he would jump into my arms. They are all things I miss about him as my current dog doesn't do that. But there are somethings my current dog does that Max didn't like get on my knee to chew hard chews.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hope you're strong today. Take good care.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Thinking of you both today.


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## kitty25 (Mar 11, 2011)

Thinking of you both today x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Thoughts and hugs are with you both today, take care. x


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

we are all thinking of you today


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

With much love and support from me and mine MartMart.

Be strong! You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have:- Anon


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Thinking of you martmart 

xxx


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Hugs for today!


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Thinking of you and Sasha.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

If you've gone through with it then naturally you will be feeling awful. It doesn't mean you failed the dog. Most likely there was irrepairable damage before you got her. What you have done you have done for the safety of your family and the public. This was not the easy way out it was the hard way out. I'd not seen Dunbar's bite scale before. If you go back and read your first post, which in all likelihood is the most accurate since is was freshest, it looks like a 4 ( bite and hang on.. I'm not sure you give/know number of punctures or depth ). The quality of life outlook for a 4 is not good. I look at my boy lying on the floor and wonder how I would feel in the same situation. They all look like angels when they are calm/asleep. Sometimes life is just a complete arse.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I cant find any words to say mart but I am thinking about you and dear sash.xxx


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Thinking of you today.

If you make that big decision, please don't blame yourself as you have been doing.

Hold on to the fact that you have given her good times and love, that she wouldn't have had, and you are protecting her in a different way now.

Be strong.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Thinking about you both today.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

My thoughts are with you xx


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

Thoughts are with you, cant add anything more.


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

just caught this thread....i think the kindest thing to do for her is to pts.

good luck today making a decision.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Really thinking of you and your girl today MATMART.

xxx


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## Velcro (May 20, 2013)

if sasha has crossed the bridge today, i hope you are bearing up well. i know nothing any of us say could make it better, im still coming to terms with having my kitten pts and she was poorly

Im sure she will be over the bridge waiting to greet her x x


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Thinking and praying for you both.


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

is sasha still with you or has she gone to the rainbow bridge rather worried as you have posted on another thread but not on this one not trying to be nosey just wanted to know if you were allright


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

My thoughts were with you yesterday - and also today, i hope your staying strong and looking after yourself. x


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

JenSteWillow said:


> My thoughts were with you yesterday - and also today, i hope your staying strong and looking after yourself. x


I'm feeling the same, I checked in last night hoping to have seen Mart had posted, I know hes not ok so to speak, but I just hope he is taking care of himself and still needs to talk


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

He just needs time to collect his thoughts and emotions I would think. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't post for some time yet, still very raw if he went ahead yesterday and he won't feel like talking about it for a while. 

If you read this martmart, make sure you have eaten and try to get some well earned rest.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Really hope you're doing OK MATMART.

We are all thinking of you x


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Hello MartMart, Just popping in here to let you know we still think about you and hope you are ok, we understand you may not wish to talk, I can certainly understand this, but I didnt want you to think we have forgot you, so until you feel ready I just want to send healing loving thoughts to you.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Also checking in and thinking of you hope you are managing to eat.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> Hello MartMart, Just popping in here to let you know we still think about you and hope you are ok, we understand you may not wish to talk, I can certainly understand this, but I didnt want you to think we have forgot you, so until you feel ready I just want to send healing loving thoughts to you.


I second this  xx


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

Im sorry its been so long since my last post. Im sure your all waiting to hear what happened.

If my memory serves..my last messages were saying that I had made an appointment for PTS, ...but just before talking with a behaviourist, I had cancelled that appointment and decided on a health check.....but after my discussion with the behaviourist (the day before the appoitment)...I decided to make the decision to PTS. (I think this app. was last wednesday). This is where we were at in my last posts.

Ok... the day of the appointment came...I couldn't go through with it. It was so painful....I decided to get them to give her a health check instead. She was found to be in perfect health.I (which makes pts all the more hard for me)

Anway.... I spent the next few days kind of in hiding...taking for walks at 2 in the morning along the river praying that no one had seen me and told my SiL. Anyway....I saw my nephew on saturday..he'd obviously had a few drinks with his mum in the pub first. He asked if the dog was dead yet...I said no...that I took her down but couldn't go through with it. She told him to tell me that if it isn't done, she'll get the police..blah blah. So I was forced to promise him I'd make the appointment monday. (today) *_this isn't exactly how it happened...it would take much longer to say exactly*_

anyway....I made the appointment today at dinner time for PTS....they asked me when I would like to have it done and I just started to break down...I said I hoping for wednesday or thursday hoping to have a few more days with her..but then I said a part of me wants to just get it over and done with.....so she offered me an appointment for 5pm today (monday)...

I went into a bit of a shock within myself at the thought of it being so soon...but then I decided to just go ahead with it instead of prolonging my agony.

My appoitment was at 5 pm but I wasn't called in until about 6 due to 3 emergencies...the moment I was called..I could feel everything inside me just sink, I got through the door and just broke down....they explained everything to me before hand. We decided to do it on the floor rather than the table...We put the muzzle on her,...she was struggling quite a lot tho. I put my face close to hers so she could lick me...which she did...she was obviously frightened at this point. Then the licking stopped and she stopped struggling. I lay with her for a good 20 mins before they had to ask me to leave....watching her die was hard enough, but leaving her there was the hardest.

For all who say she had to die because she was a risk to humans...fair enough, but the most dangerous creature on this planet and the biggest risk to humans are.....humans.

Again, my apologies for taking so long in responding and thankyou all for the kind support you have shown me throughout this thread.

Goodbye Sasha, I will miss you so much and already I am feeling the pain and emptiness of you not being around to annoy me, or sit behind me trying to push me off the settee... My flat feels so strange without you and Jacko has been looking all over or you...he is missing you to.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

How terribly sad. I have no words to ease your pain, I wish I did.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Oh Malmart, wish we could make it better for you.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

So very sorry for all you've been through. Your love for Sasha shines through, even this last kindness you did for her, she knew you loved her and were with her right up to the very end.

Stay strong and brave, Jacko needs you now to help him in his grief, and let him help you too. Take good care of yourself for his sake.


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## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm so sorry - I really feel for you with having to go through this - you've had me close to tears so many times...Stay strong


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry you had to go through this and alone  

Sweet dream Sasha


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## Velcro (May 20, 2013)

im so sorry martmart, I don't really know what to say - but know im thinking of you in this terrible time


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

So sad for all of you. Thinking of you at this horrible time!


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## laurahair (Apr 21, 2011)

also thinking of you here, you did what you had to but please try to remember that you gave a loving home to a dog who might otherwise have met a sad end without being shown the care and affection you did. Please be gentle on yourself x


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

There are no words. 

I am really sorry for your loss but I also believe you 100% made the right decision for you and Sasha x x


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## j4nfr4n (Mar 10, 2013)

Martmart so sorry to think of the pain you must be feeling just remember you were the one to love her as she left this life for her new one. 
Run free SASHA be happy and look down on your dad and help him through his pain.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

So sorry Martmart.

Don't be too hard on yourself you are the one that gave her a chance and showed her love and companionship when others had given up on her and abandoned her. She left to strat her journey to rainbow bridge knowing that you loved her and she will be waiting there for you until the time comes for you to meet again.

Run free Sasha you're in a better place now were no one will judge you for whatever you have done in your past life.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I'm sorry.

You've done what was best for her, it's better she passed with someone she loved with her than alone or with strangers. 

*hugs*


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Am thinking of you and feeling for you. Can't imagine how much you must hurt.

Sending hugs xx 

All issues aside - I don't think anyone can deny how awful this must have been for you to have to do and reading your post of your 'goodbye' certainly brought a huge lump to my throat and tears to my eyes. 

Take care of yourself.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Martmart your post made me want to cry 

You're a very good man for what you did. We're all here for you if you need to chat, when you're ready, share all the good times, the photos and the funny stories. She's not gone, she's still with you and like others have said there are far worse things than PTS.

Many people have had their dogs PTS at the drop of a hat. You are a true dog lover and you gave her every chance, she's no longer stressed or in danger. 

Take care of yourself and share the good times when you're ready.

xxx


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

thinking of you,


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

So very sorry. You've had such a horrible experience. Thinking of you. RIP Sasha.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

RIP Sasha, sometimes it's harder to do the right thing .


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

So, so sorry Martmart. You're a truly brave, loving person, bless you xxxx.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Oh MATMART, I am so so sorry, I really do feel for you. You did your very best for your girl and that is all that any of us can ever do.

Run free Sasha! xxx


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Thinking of you and sasha. The world can be a cruel place but you did the right thing. God now I'm crying


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MATMART, I have a feeling that many of us are shedding a few tears along with you this evening 

Please know that you are not alone. x


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

So sorry, its been a very sad journey for you (and us)

I dont think for a moment that I can imagine what you have had to go through.

You have a rocky road to walk along for a while, it hurts me to even say this but I do think under the circumstances that you had no other choice. It wont ease your pain - I know. 

Run free at the Bridge Sasha. Thinking of you Martmart, be strong.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

hushtalk said:


> I hope you reconsider. *you get a dog and take resposability and I be as blunt as I can and say that you probably should not own another dog after this because if you cant afford the care for a dog why have one in the first place?*
> Even if I couldnt afford beczzuse of recent happenings I would look for all possible rescources and try my best to give this dog the best outcome.
> 
> PTS for something you dont even know what has happened is a bit harsh and unfair to the dog


Perhaps you don't know the circumstances by which the OP came by this dog. He actually found her tied to a lampost one night and took her home. He has already got a Jack Russell if memory serves, and has done his very best to give this girl a good and loving home, despite having the situation thrust upon him. He could have walked away and left the problem to someone else to deal with, he could have had her pts when he first found her and rescue places are scarce. He didn't, he tried, though perhaps a little out of his depth.



ouesi said:


> Please do not rehome this dog to just anyone who will take her. The only people you should be talking to about taking her are responsible rescue organizations.
> 
> If you are unwilling or unable to safely manage and train this dog, and no rescue will take her, then the only option left is humane euthanasia.
> 
> ...


This is England. We do not have such things for humans.

OP I remember when you found this little dog, how stressed you were in deciding what was best to do. I know how hard you have tried with her, despite your own health problems. It must be devastating and I feel for you. RIP Sasha.


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## j4nfr4n (Mar 10, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> MATMART, I have a feeling that many of us are shedding a few tears along with you this evening
> 
> Please know that you are not alone. x


Just been telling my daughter Cats Galore the sad news and had to put the phone because couldn't speak properly through the tears. We are all here for you Martmart xx


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Wow...martmart...I rarely cry from reading anything. 

I am in awe of you...to do such a selfless act despite what can only be described as taunts from your family is incredible. It would have been only too easy to defensively prolong this situation. But the love you have for your niece really has shone through. 

What's more you have saved this dog a life of permanent resentment and probably a more terrifying ordeal at the hands of police. 

You are brave and selfless and I really am in awe of you.

I am so sorry you have been through this whole ordeal. Your scars won't heal as quickly as your niece's but I hope they heal. I hope you can celebrate the life you gave Sasha and move your own life on.

Big hugs from me.

Sleep tight Sasha.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

So sorry to read this, wish there were some words that could make things less painful for you. As sad as this awful situation is, you have done the most responsible and caring thing you could have done for your dog and Sasha is at peace.

RIP Sasha x


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Martmart - I am so sorry you have had to go through this. You did the right and brave thing. Better that Sasha had a short happy time with you rather than being passed round. Sorry your relatives have been less than supportive. We are all willing to listen if you need to talk.


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

i'm so sorry to hear that this awful situation has ended in Sasha having to be pts. i've just been talking to my mom (j4nfr4n) and she was in tears telling me about your story. this has hurt so many people on this forum, god only knows how you must be feeling. i'm sure your pain will heal in time and you will then be able to think of sasha once again without hurting so much. you saved her when she most needed it, you loved her and cared for her when no-one else would. it is such a great pity that your girl has had to leave you in such a way but please always remember, she loved you for the time you had together. huge hugs for you from me and all of my gang. RIP Sasha, this cruel world can no longer hurt you little girl - run free at the bridge xxx


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

So so sad..

Mart I really really feel for you,you sound like a very kind gentle man and you didn't deserve this feeling,bless you.

Sasha girl wait for your daddy wont you he will miss you so very much.Rip girl.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

I have been wanting to reply to you for the past 3 hours or more, but have felt so useless and distraught in what has happened, and cant find any words for your pain but I know I wont be able to sleep at all until I respond to you because I feel your hurt so much....and sadly all I can come up with is I so want to hug you and make you feel better but cant, and it pains me more than you know that I cant do that ....so in my feeble way I just want you to feel my love, compassion and most of all, my hug to you!...PLEASE keep strong MartMart, this world needs such loving caring people like you! xxx


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

So sorry for you to have to endure such a painful decision in having to PTS a dog you rescued as anyone who rescues a dog like you did would only wish for a happy ending.

You tried your best and no dog could ask for more. Hugs xx


R.I.P and run free and play with your new doggy pals at the Bridge Sasha xx


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

MartMart I'm crying buckets at your post I'm so devastated for you and Sasha although I know you did the right thing.

Your courage and love have shone through this thread. I wish I could help lift your pain. You are a good person and did everything you possibly could.

Sasha will be in your heart always and I'm sure they watch over us even when their physical form has gone the souls of our beautiful friends stay with us forever.

I'm sure Sasha is glad you chose to give her a piece of your heart and a happy physical life. Now she can always be happy with you in spirit always.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I admire your bravery and your love of Sasha cannot be doubted. You've saved her from a horrible ordeal. Be gentle with yourself and you and Jacko take comfort in each other. {{{hugs}}}


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mulish said:


> ... it's highly doubtful anyone 'nice' is going to whisk her away to live [out] her days happily on a farm.
> *She'll likely be snapped up by dog fighters.*


errm, sorry to bust that bubble, but the b*st*rds who put dogs in the fighting-pits don't want to be bitten, 
either. 

More to the point, the REASON that Staffs, APBT / AmStaffs, Boston [Bull &] Terriers, Engl Bull-Terriers, 
etc, all are generally *very* human-sociable & tolerant is Because of Dog-Fighters who didn't tolerate
nor breed any dog-aggro dogs; they desexed 'em, killed them, desexed 'em & sold them on, etc.

During a dog-fight, there are a minimum of 4 ppl in the pit with the dogs: 2 owners or handlers, 
& 2 judges to observe; if the judge says, "pull Ur dog", the owner / handler has to wade in there, 
grab a dog, & lift her or him out, bodily. If U did that when, say, a GSD & a BC were hammer & tongs,
U'd be damned lucky not to need a dozen stitches; they're not discriminating when they're fighting.

Pitties generally only bite what they intend to - which is why this bite to the child, if it happened that way, 
is a very, very serious event.

OP, 
did she need stitches? How *deep* were the punctures? 
Over 1/2 the depth of the dog's canines? Less?

Is there bruising around the punctures, or just clean tooth holes & minimal bruising?
is there CRUSHING - lots of swelling, very dark-colored, deep bruising?

How would U score the bite on the Dunbar scale?
Ian Dunbar?s Bite Assessment Scale


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JeanGenie said:


> [the parents] may not... be the ones reporting this, if the young girl was hospitalized,
> the hospital themselves may decide to report this to the authorities.


yep - it's not really a 'choice', either.
Drs are mandated dogbite reporters, just as they must if they treat a gunshot wound.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Typing through tears martmart and so very sorry for what you had to do. Far better this way than the police dragging her away, sticking her in a cold concrete kennel only to be pts in the hands of those who don't care. She was with the human she loved and is now at peace. You now have to deal with the grief and it hurts so very very much, actually physically hurts. Try to look on it as a blessing that she passed with you there and knew love right til her last breath. Bless you for being so selfless and staying with her. xx

Run free at the beautiful rainbow bridge sweet Sasha and every time your dad sees a rainbow or feels the touch of a warm nights breeze let him know you are looking over him, sending him strength and love. xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JeanGenie said:


> If I am brutally honest, I cannot see behaviourists being able to help in these circumstances.
> 
> This is *a dog of questioned type [with] many issues, [no] history... no one actually knows [what] she's been through.*
> 
> Sometimes, animals do get broken, beyond repair


Since i've done nothing but B-Mod since 1985 & have worked with dogs who have bite-histories, 
allow me to say that U needn't KNOW what happened to help the dog; that's a doggone good thing,
IMO, as many rescued dogs would be long-dead if we needed a history in order to rehab! 

As to her *type*, let's not get started; bully-breeds are usually better than other types,
if we're talking about the risk of a bite. Mouthing is a common issue with bully-breeds, as is TUGGING - 
on clothes, on leashes, anything they can grip. But biting isn't a frequent complaint, once past puphood.

She may not have been thru any "horrors" at all; just been neglected & undersocialized.
Allowing a pup to grow-up merely feeding & providing a minimum of vet-care results in dogs who have
no connection to ppl & no tolerance for handling, nor are they habituated to movement: Suddenly passing 
close by can make them snap reflexively.

Pups taken from mum & sibs too young don't learn *bite inhibition*, a critical skill for all dogs.
One of the worst biters i ever worked with was a 3-YO male Chi, taken from his litter & dam at only 5- or
6-WO; he was a truly horrid little dog, he'd begun biting at only 4-MO & had begun with strangers;
by the time i met him, he bit EVERYONE - he lived with 3 adults, & they all had scars.

Luckily, dogs are also very plastic in their behavior, & often very badly damaged dogs recover well;
much better IMO & IME than humans with similar psychological or emotional damage. However, it takes time,
& considerable effort - & with a dog who's bitten, *stringent* management. :nonod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JeanGenie said:


> Unfortunately dog bites are becoming more and more frequent...


this actually is *not* a fact.

There are more dogs in the developed world than before - in the USA, the dog-popn peaked around 73-million.
that's owned dogs in pet homes; we're not counting strays, ferals, cop-k9s, Border Patrol, etc.
Just pets.

Between the slump of 2008 & 2010, dog-numbers dropped about 10%; not much, given how tough
things were, with unemployment, underwater mortgages, & so on.

The number of ppl who die as a result of dog-attacks has stayed pretty consistent at 10 to 12 
per year in the USA for some decades; the number of BITES that require medical attn per 100k dogs
has actually fallen, even as the dog-popn swelled enormously.

_"the dog-bite epidemic"_ is mostly a media event - plus the easy flow of info
via social-networks & 'instant news' from Twitter, cable-news, on-line bulletins, & so forth.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I think there was some poor advice on here that has encouraged you think it would be a good idea to see
> a professional behaviourist to see if she can be helped. They were totally wrong and grossly unfair
> for giving you this hope.
> 
> Please for your dog's sake, for your family's sake and for your own sake, don't put *the inevitable* off.


i'm very confused; the only statement i've seen about the injury was that it was "a bad bite", which could be 
1 to 4 punctures / no bruising, all the way to a full-mouth bite with multiple punctures / severe bruising / crush 
injuries, & tissue is going to slough - meaning skin-transplant, possible muscle loss, possible nerve or 
tendon or functional damage.

i know that any bite that breaks skin instantly elevates the shock & anger & fear - but this is all very 
vague, for deciding to label euthanasia "inevitable".

I know, having posted [which puts my posts at the end of the thread] that the dog *was* euthanized, 
but at this point in the events, i would not have said it was "inevitable". I'd want more info.


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## queen princess (Jun 29, 2013)

I am VERRY sorry for your loss and wish you hadn't had to go through this. I know how hard this was because we had to do the same thing 15 years ago with one of our dogs before we knew better.
please NOBODY take this the wrong way! just some possible clarification.
from my understanding, the issue with some of the comments is due to 2 statements:
1. the way she reacted to me when I found her originally, there is not a chance in hell I would have taken her in if I'd had children. I live alone, and I do agree that I have a duty of care to the community, and its a duty I excercise at all times. the dog is always in the flat with me, I never take her to family and I take her for walks where there are very few people, I also keep her close by me on a short leash, and warn everyone and anyone that although I dont think she will bite, I don't want to take any risks by allowing you to stroke her.
2. when the dog bit the family member, when the owner got outside, the dog was still tugging on the girls leg. 

granted that I'm NOT a trainer, but I have worked with one off and on for the past 5 years, and been through all the classes many times with my different dogs, even an aggressive one. I am greatfull that he took her in. unfortunately, NOBODY knows what the dog went through before, but there WAS known concernes about her. I'm not sure what kind of intense training she went through when he got her. I don't mean abusive, just training with a trainer a couple times a wk and working with her EVERY day on her socializing. we had a dog who we fostered and knew was people and dog aggressive when we got her at 1 1/2 years. she went to training class 2 times a wk with a wire cage muzzle on. when we weren't in class, she went on walks with the muzzle on. we took treats EVERYWARE she went for strangers to give her or toss at her. after months of hard work, she was able to ONLY have a muzzle on while around other dogs and men with hats. she eventually was adopted to a family with agressive pit bull experience, and with a BUNCH of kids and no other dogs at the age of 3. she is now 7 years old, the owners still use her muzzle while around other dogs, but she is good with ALL people. she has never bit anybody, and only 1 minor incident with another dog that got into her yard. that being said, nobody can say if his dog could or should have been saved. I think that this conversation about if the dog should have been saved or not at this point is kind of sad. I know if I read some of these comments after just having my dog PTS (yes, including possibly this one), I would feel like I was being jumped on for not making the "so called" right choice. I feel that this should no longer be a conversation of what he should/should not have done, but how to help him deal with what has been done. very sorry if this sounded rude, but I reamber how I felt in this situation as I called animal control, who was a friend of mine, and who my dog LOVED, to come pick up my Shepard mix after biting a friend. we had a disabled foster child in the home at the time, so the dog was forced to be PTS.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

queen princess said:


> I am VERRY sorry for your loss and wish you hadn't had to go through this. I know how hard this was because we had to do the same thing 15 years ago with one of our dogs before we knew better.
> please NOBODY take this the wrong way! just some possible clarification.
> from my understanding, the issue with some of the comments is due to 2 statements:
> 1. the way she reacted to me when I found her originally, there is not a chance in hell I would have taken her in if I'd had children. I live alone, and I do agree that I have a duty of care to the community, and its a duty I excercise at all times. the dog is always in the flat with me, I never take her to family and I take her for walks where there are very few people, I also keep her close by me on a short leash, and warn everyone and anyone that although I dont think she will bite, I don't want to take any risks by allowing you to stroke her.
> ...


I so agree with you. Martmart made a very difficult decision - it may be one that we agree or disagree with, but it was made with the best of motives and the interests of a much-loved dog at heart. What Martmart did was a courageous and painful thing for him. It is easy for all of us to say 'do this', 'do that' - we don't have the deep love for this particular dog that he has.

I would say to Martmart; you did what you did from the best of motives. You will never know if your dog could have been rehabilitated - perhaps she could, perhaps not. Accept what is done, grieve for your very deep loss - I have been there myself - it is dreadful, and then think of how much you gave each other - comfort, love, companionship - and what she had from you that she didn't have from her previous owner - care and devotion.

We all of us have to make choices in life. We never know what would have happened had we made a different one. We do the best we can under the circumstances, and sometimes it isn't what we would have wnated in an ideal world.

My thoughts and prayers are with you. You must be heartbroken.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

martmart said:


> Im sorry its been so long since my last post. Im sure your all waiting to hear what happened.
> 
> If my memory serves..my last messages were saying that I had made an appointment for PTS, ...but just before talking with a behaviourist, I had cancelled that appointment and decided on a health check.....but after my discussion with the behaviourist (the day before the appoitment)...I decided to make the decision to PTS. (I think this app. was last wednesday). This is where we were at in my last posts.
> 
> ...


I haven't 'liked' this post for it's content, but because of the tremendous courage you have shown. You and Sasha shared such a short time, but you developed the most amazing bond.

I am angry with your family. They have bullied you and forced you to part with a most loving companion before you had properly emotionally prepared yourself. They have been selfish and cruel on this occasion.

Everyone here has expressed feelings so much better that I can - but you and Sasha are in my heart.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> i'm very confused; the only statement i've seen about the injury was that it was "a bad bite", which could be
> 1 to 4 punctures / no bruising, all the way to a full-mouth bite with multiple punctures / severe bruising / crush
> injuries, & tissue is going to slough - meaning skin-transplant, possible muscle loss, possible nerve or
> tendon or functional damage.
> ...


Hi, I truly do not wish to come across as rude, that is the last thing I want, but I'm finding it hard not to say this, but I think it's time to stop your debate about this now on this thread, let the poor man grieve with no more of the "whys and wherefores".... if you feel the need to carry this on please could I sugest you start another thread 

I feel MartMart will still be coming on here to try find a little comfort and empathy from us all as it is really early days for him in the devastation he feels and I think it will be the last thing he needs is to read an ongoing debate...
like I said I do not wish to be rude, please dont take this the wrong way


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I agree with MyMillie. There's no point in going over what's already been said in earlier posts now that the deed is done. The difference is that Sasha could very well have been deemed of 'type' seized and languished in a filthy cold kennel with no human contact, her behaviour escalated and suffered greatly at the hands of the powers that be - much the same as Lennox. She wasn't just a breed who bit once, she was a potential scape goat of our ridiculous dangerous dogs act. Martmart didn't want that to happen, had been threatened with police involvement and knew this would have very likely been the breaking of his much loved dog. He also couldn't have sustained the fees that legal action would have involved and was told the very same by a behaviourist. He did what he thought was best for the sake of his much loved dog and I, with many others think he was very selfless and courageous in doing so. 

Please let us not make him doubt his actions, especially as he is now grieving so much. Sasha is at peace and safe from what could and possibly would have been a most awful seizure and petrifying ordeal before eventually being pts in the hands of uncaring strangers. 

Take care martmart, you were right to do what you did and please don't ever doubt that. xx


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

I have to agree with the last poster I think this thread should now be closed and let Mart have some peace to grieve I cried a lot when I read she had gone to the rainbow bridge
I know how devastated Mart must be feeling and I know a lot of us here have cried about this too
Mart just know you gave her a loving home a gentle caring when no one else would and I am sure she appreciated your love and devotion
No one knew what she had been through before you took her home and you did your very best 
No one could foresee what would happen and I also think in time you will be able to think of the good times you both had together 
Know we all share your pain obviously not like you do but we all care and we will all be here for you if you ever need to talk
RIP little one look down on your dad and comfort him


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss.Time will help dull the pain a little.RIP Sasha.

PS If it were me I would never speak to my SIL again.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> i'm very confused; the only statement i've seen about the injury was that it was "a bad bite", which could be
> 1 to 4 punctures / no bruising, all the way to a full-mouth bite with multiple punctures / severe bruising / crush
> injuries, & tissue is going to slough - meaning skin-transplant, possible muscle loss, possible nerve or
> tendon or functional damage.
> ...


I wasn't going to respond to any posts as Im still in a horrible feeling of disbelief and quite numb at the moment, but the vagueness regarding the bite was because I had only seen the injury immediately after it happened and I remember seeing 1 puncture. However, I have since seen a photograph of the injury (which was obviously taken for evidence purposes).... my niece actually has 5 punctures in her thigh and bruising all around. It must have been absolute agony at the time and probably still quite painful now.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> Hi, I truly do not wish to come across as rude, that is the last thing I want, but I'm finding it hard not to say this, but I think it's time to stop your debate about this now on this thread, let the poor man grieve with no more of the "whys and wherefores"....


You are not being rude at all. You are very perceptive. This thread will draw Martmart whether he likes it or not, and to read criticisms of what was and remains a painful decision for him will be hurtful. I can't stop myself from stepping in on his behalf, as do others, but as you say it prolongs the agony/

As long as Martmart knows that we are here to offer support to him, as always.


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

polishrose said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss.Time will help dull the pain a little.RIP Sasha.


thanks  Im pretty familiar with grief...and this is certainly not the worst pain I've felt..pretty close I might add, but Ive been through worse. I know time heals and so does plenty of crying and I'll be ok in a couple of weeks once I've adjusted to not having her around.



> PS If it were me I would never speak to my SIL again.


Trust me....I wont even be in the same room as her..I won't even bear to look at her. I've seen another side of her that I never knew existed and I might add, its all fuelled by drink..she drinks a lot.


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## cheekymonkey68 (Nov 18, 2012)

Hi Martmart,

Just thought I'd check in to see how you are doing, I've got all choked up reading your last posts, and am so sorry that you had to take Sacha to be pts.

I know how it feels to leave your loved one at the vets, and Im afraid it'll be with you for a while. You did the right thing, it could have been taken out of your hands at any moment. 

Hold in there, look after yourself, it'll take time to heal, but clearly there are lots of people on here who are thinking of you and are happy to be here for you in your sadness.

M x


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## martmart (Jan 26, 2012)

I would just like to say a final thankyou to all the kind words of support. they have meant a lot to me through this difficult time.

To those who say they feel helpless in their words. Yes it is frustrating not knowing what to say in times like this, I know that feeling well too. However, please know that your words do help because I know one of the most important things in times like this (atleast for me) is to let the tears flow and words do help in letting the tears flow. 

Im still feeling pretty numb at the moment...a sense of disbelief that she's no longer with me, that she isn't lying with her head on my arm making it hard to type as she usually does...or lying on the back of the settee with her head resting on my shoulder. I still have in my mind the moment she past...watching her struggling frantically...looking at me as I was holding the sides of her her cheeks and stroking..while she was trying to lick my nose with the kind of face that I could only describe as "pleading" for the vets to stop what they were doing...then watching the life just drain away out of her and her eyes become lifeless....that moment will haunt me for the rest of my life. The intense feeling of guilt that I just can't shake off. 

although my sister in law has every right to be angry with me and I forever hold my head in shame for allowing this to happen, I will never forgive her for the incensitive and vicious vindictive way she did this. All fuelled by drink I might add. 

Im going to ask that this thread be closed now.
again, thank you all so much from the bottom of my heart for the kind and loving words of support that you have shown since the start of this thread and tho you may not think it, has been a great help to me. I hope that if I see someone else going through something like this, that I can offer the same words of support. it is a great comfort knowing that people have been through this, knowing exactly how Im feeling and knowing that they got through their grief. 

much love to all
Mart!


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