# Fighting for dominance



## daisymay32 (Nov 28, 2010)

I have a two and a half year old Golden Retriever and a 6 month old Springer spaniel/collie cross.Both are bitches. The GR is so laid back as to be horizontal the phrase 'yeah whatever' sums her up. The puppy is very fiesty. Up to now they have got on very well. The older dog lets the puppy get away with a lot but then will suddenly put her in her place. Recently though they have had a couple of fights (not play fights). The older dog seems to have become wary of the puppy even when the puppy is not doing anything or appears to be trying to be friendly. They seem to suddenly growl at each other for no reason. We have followed the rules about letting one dog (the older one) be dominant in our eyes by feeding her first /greeting first etc. We are not sure what to do now. In my view the puppy seems to have a more dominant nature and I think she may well become the dominant dog. My partner wants to resist this and disciplines the puppy for growling etc. The older dog seems to be acting as if intimidated at times this week when the puppy appears to be nowhere near her. How far do we interfere and how far do we let them get on with it? Do we let them fight or stop the fight? Will this get worse or will they sort it our themselves? I appreciate that the puppy is coming into sexual maturity and may be vying for dominance. Any advice please :confused1:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Its not unusual for this to happen with two same sexes in the same house. What an adult will take from a pup and vice versa becomes different once both are matured. At 6mths the younger will be undergoing hormone changes and her season is likely to be approaching. Either the pup will start to compete with the older or the other way round, in this case it seems to be the pup with the adult being goaded into fighting her corner.

I had it with mine. Pup came at 12 weeks accepted by 11 plus year old female who had been spayed best part 10 years. Pup came in season my adult started on the pup, pup finally retaliated, however it didnt escalate as I was there to stop it. Season finished, back to normal, had her spayed 12 weeks later at a year and no probs since.

You will need to not leave them alone unsupervised. Triggers that will especially set them off are food, chew,toys, confined areas, attention, visitors coming. At the moment you need to avoid all these. I would feed them separately and take bowls up straight away, No food to be left otherwise. Only give chews and toys when you are there and then make sure they are not in close proximity to each other, any eyeing up,growling at each other nip it in the bud before it escalates. Dont give attention or fuss each one where they are likely to compete. Dont leave them together in confined small areas. In all honesty I would even get two spaced apart water bowls because Ive seen them even compete over that. Be very wary if you have visitors that can give them reason to compete.

Other than this the only thing I would advise is to have them both spayed,in the meantime dont let them get into any serious fights by avoiding triggers as much as possible above. Until the younger or boths either had/finished a season and or spayed, you need to be careful. Mine were managed until I got them spayed plus also I think the older and smaller one realised eventually that although she started the problems the younger one who is bigger was going to retaliate and she had the sense to realise to a degree that if I hadnt protected her she might just come off worse. However this is not always the case and you can get two dogs especially of the same sex who wont give in whatever especially if they remain entire, then even if semi ok they will start again every season. Then if they get into the culture of fighting you cant always stop it, thats why you need to ensure it doesnt happen bu supervising and management in the meantime. Hope this helps.


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## briony (Dec 4, 2010)

> I think the older and smaller one realised eventually that although she started the problems the younger one who is bigger was going to retaliate and she had the sense to realise to a degree that if I hadnt protected her she might just come off worse.


I absolutely agree with this (althought mine were the same size) our older dog was trodden on actually but when she retaliated she did with some gusto but even i knew if the younger one retaliated the older one would have had no chance and i know she knew this as she always stopped short.
Everything sled dog said makes perfect sense good luck


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I've got 3 adults and 2 youngsters here. The two adult boys get along fine with the youngest male who's 11 months, they've not gotten into any nastiness or aggressive outbursts but one of the adults does play alot with the youngster... licking and nibbling each others faces whilst lying down facing each other. I tend to put a stop to this as soon as I see it purely because of it wrecking the head falls as both are shown.

The two girls are mother and daughter, so far, they've not had any issues that would make me think there's a dominance thing starting but the daughter has gone through this with her dad. She used to pounce on him in a playful way and in the beginning he would tell her off with a low growl or a little snap and I would tell her off for bothering him and sort of wag my finger at him with uh uh sound. She ignored my warnings and has brought her dad around to her way of thinking... ie that she's the boss of him  She showed our youngest boy that she was the boss when they were both little, not by being nasty but just by playing with him and sitting on him lol... he doesn't care who's in charge though and is happy to just do what he does, nothing much phases him. The only one that will not allow our youngest girl to take top spot is my oldest male. Since she brow beat her dad into submission she's taken to pouncing on the oldest male who does not give in, he will growl until she gives up or until I make her leave him alone... maybe he has stood his ground because he knows I'm on his side  ahhh well, he was my first and will always be my No.1 

If the behaviour is bothering you or you think it could get out of hand, then perhaps you should stop it as soon as you see something happening or start to develope. This could go on for a while unless as sled dog has suggested, they are neutered.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

daisymay32 said:


> My partner wants to resist this and disciplines the puppy for growling etc.


*Don't punish growling. 
growling is CRITICAL information and is to be heeded, not ignored, 
and DEFINITELY not punished - what do U expect a dog to do, 
send a politely written petition?! hold a sit-down demonstration?! 
go on a hunger-strike?!

a BITE without warning is what results when 
humans PUNISH growling - then they kill the dog, 
for biting without warning, %#@!&*@! :incazzato: *

please spay both dogs ASAP. good luck - U will need it.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

daisymay32 said:


> I have a two and a half year old Golden Retriever and a 6 month old Springer spaniel/collie cross.Both are bitches. The GR is so laid back as to be horizontal the phrase 'yeah whatever' sums her up. The puppy is very fiesty. Up to now they have got on very well. The older dog lets the puppy get away with a lot but then will suddenly put her in her place. Recently though they have had a couple of fights (not play fights). The older dog seems to have become wary of the puppy even when the puppy is not doing anything or appears to be trying to be friendly. They seem to suddenly growl at each other for no reason. We have followed the rules about letting one dog (the older one) be dominant in our eyes by feeding her first /greeting first etc. We are not sure what to do now. In my view the puppy seems to have a more dominant nature and I think she may well become the dominant dog. My partner wants to resist this and disciplines the puppy for growling etc. The older dog seems to be acting as if intimidated at times this week when the puppy appears to be nowhere near her. How far do we interfere and how far do we let them get on with it? Do we let them fight or stop the fight? Will this get worse or will they sort it our themselves? I appreciate that the puppy is coming into sexual maturity and may be vying for dominance. Any advice please :confused1:


I had this with two bitches recently oner was as payed bitch aged 6 the other a younger entire bitch aged 3 and there fights got worse , we stopped the fights as soon as they kicked off but in the end and after much soul and searching and tears i had to rehome the older bitch, she was found a super home in Cumbria with a amazing family and she is much happier , not saying this will be needed in your case but in my case it resorted after one fight of the younger bitch having to go to vets as her face had been ripped open


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *Don't punish growling.
> growling is CRITICAL information and is to be heeded, not ignored,
> and DEFINITELY not punished - what do U expect a dog to do,
> send a politely written petition?! hold a sit-down demonstration?!
> ...


I was just going to say that! Growling is their only way of warning and the other dog will recognise this. You should not be "punishing" the dog anyway, just take her out of the room if you are worried, but calmly not making a big deal out of it.

As said, get them both spayed asap. I don't have any experience of bitches but I know that they will fight over different things to dogs. When you break up a fight, try to do it with a distraction. I always stand up and clap my hands loudly and say enough! But mine have probably only fought once or twice - they are boys, easier to sort out.

Everything already mentioned.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

If the younger one is the more naturally dominant, you're best not trying to keep the old pack order. Let it change to reflect the new situation and you're removing one big source of conflict. So feed the pup first, greet her first. Both will be happier with a settled order once the older bitch has accepted her new position. It may seem unfair, but that's from a human perspective. Dogs don't do 'fair'. 

I have a similar situation; a 7-8 yr old spayed bitch (Ziggy), and a youngster now 16 months (Kite), just had her first season (yes I know that's late, but normal for her breed). Kite was the more dominant and confident from day 1 when she pushed Ziggy off her food and started eating it, Ziggy backed off and let her. I treated them equally until the younger was about 8 months, more or less full grown. I then started feeding Kite first, giving her attention first etc. Ziggy accepted her new role and I've had no more than 3 snaps (Kite to Ziggy in the first week of her season), and one growl yesterday. Apart from that, they get on really well. During the first 2 weeks of Kite's season I kept them apart in different rooms when I was out just to be on the safe side.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

You were right to feed and greet the older dog first when the pup first arrived, but you don't need to keep doing it. I don't know how long you have had the pup, but I should think that by now you could greet and feed both at once. That could settle things down a bit.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I am very suspect towards any behaviour described as dominant. For one, it has been proven that there is no such thing as a dominant dog, only dominant interactions. Secondly, dogs rarely vye for power as there is simply no need. They don't have a pack order like wolves (who hardly ever vye for power between themselves) and therefore we need to think of things of how they are and other possible reasons rather than reverting to dominance. A dog's ontological process is so complex that to call a behaviour like what your spaniel/collie cross is exhibiting could be a broad generalisation. 

To help with the problem, firstly, do not punish or discipline harshly for growling. The GR is politely demonstrating his discomfort, not being aggressive (yet). You need to control their interactions and only allow interactions to continue when both dogs are calm. The younger dog may not have been taught the correct way to interact or being disciplined himself by parents and could simply be being over-exuberant and untactful. If he does not heed the warnings of your GR, work needs to be done to teach him more polite behaviour. 

Get a qualified, respected behaviourist to help because, since the dogs live with each other, you'll need a good programme in order to stop this escalating. I do think it's very important to throw away the notion of dominance for now and look at things with a more level head.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> As said, get them both spayed asap. I don't have any experience of bitches but I know that they will fight over different things to dogs. When you break up a fight, try to do it with a distraction. I always stand up and clap my hands loudly and say enough! But mine have probably only fought once or twice - they are boys, easier to sort out.


 I must be incredibly lucky then because I've got 5 entire bitches here ranging in age from 8 years to 15 months, and I can count on one hand the number of 'episodes' they have had and there's never been a fight - and they will literally dive inbetween any outside dog that tries to have a go at one of them.

The worst I ever get is my eldest 'grassing' the youngster up if they are getting up to something they shouldn't be. I have to say it's the one thing that does make me worry about neutering the two oldest - I have seen dynamics change considerably in households where one or more dogs has been neutered).

The point remains however, that I don't think it should be anticipated just because you have same sex dogs (i.e. bitches) that there will be greater disharmony.

I also know I am far from an isolated example, with many friends and show-peers owning multiple bitches living harmoniously together.

I have however come across people with people with trouble between dogs and bitches - and only then when one or both have been neutered.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I must be incredibly lucky then because I've got 5 entire bitches here ranging in age from 8 years to 15 months, and I can count on one hand the number of 'episodes' they have had and there's never been a fight - and they will literally dive inbetween any outside dog that tries to have a go at one of them.
> 
> The worst I ever get is my eldest 'grassing' the youngster up if they are getting up to something they shouldn't be. I have to say it's the one thing that does make me worry about neutering the two oldest - I have seen dynamics change considerably in households where one or more dogs has been neutered).
> 
> ...


I can never understand myself why people say don't have two dogs of the same sex. As I said, I know little about bitches. My two boys absolutely adore each other and the only time there is a bit of a punch up is either there is a bone involved, or one wants to play and the other tells him off. Certainly nothing to get excited or worried about.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I can never understand myself why people say don't have two dogs of the same sex. As I said, I know little about bitches. My two boys absolutely adore each other and the only time there is a bit of a punch up is either there is a bone involved, or one wants to play and the other tells him off. Certainly nothing to get excited or worried about.


My girls swap bones and chews like teenagers swap CD's and make-up  One of my girls can get a bit 'growly' with the babies if they try to take her bone (or sink their croc teeth into her tail  - and I have to say - I felt that as much as she did :lol

I am interested to see how my two boys will be together when the baby is older and the girls are in season - my eldest boy is so dopey he doesn't even know what aggression means  if a dog growls at him, he looks at me as if to say - what the hell was that mum??!!! we call him our gruffalo - and atm - the baby seems like he is going to be exacly the same - so fingers crossed.

I have to say - both my boys are much soppier than the girls - who tend to be quite lively and independent - but as for aggression - I find it hard to believe I have been lucky 5 times over.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> My girls swap bones and chews like teenagers swap CD's and make-up  One of my girls can get a bit 'growly' with the babies if they try to take her bone (or sink their croc teeth into her tail  - and I have to say - I felt that as much as she did :lol
> 
> I am interested to see how my two boys will be together when the baby is older and the girls are in season - my eldest boy is so dopey he doesn't even know what aggression means  if a dog growls at him, he looks at me as if to say - what the hell was that mum??!!! we call him our gruffalo - and atm - the baby seems like he is going to be exacly the same - so fingers crossed.
> 
> I have to say - both my boys are much soppier than the girls - who tend to be quite lively and independent - but as for aggression - I find it hard to believe I have been lucky 5 times over.


If another dog goes for Ferdie, he runs back to his mum! Big wimp. Joshua is fairly dopey but he will go bark back at another dog. I doubt he would do anything about it, though.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I can never understand myself why people say don't have two dogs of the same sex. As I said, I know little about bitches. My two boys absolutely adore each other and the only time there is a bit of a punch up is either there is a bone involved, or one wants to play and the other tells him off. Certainly nothing to get excited or worried about.


Ive had a male and three females all at the same time in the past and the 3 females were brought in separately and all adult. When I got the last one I was down to a male and female and brought in the female as a 12week pup, they didnt start until the youngest had a season and then it was ok when finished and when she was spayed and since, so as we have all proved it can be done and done successfully. Its probably a mix of getting compatible ones that get on in the first place and good management. I just think maybe for people who have never had dogs before then decide to get another then male and female can be easier unless they go to a breeder who is knowledgeable or a rehoming centre that can help them choose a compatible dog to compliment the one they have be it male or female.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> I am very suspect towards any behaviour described as dominant. For one, it has been proven that there is no such thing as a dominant dog, only dominant interactions. Secondly, dogs rarely vye for power as there is simply no need. They don't have a pack order like wolves (who hardly ever vye for power between themselves) and therefore we need to think of things of how they are and other possible reasons rather than reverting to dominance. A dog's ontological process is so complex that to call a behaviour like what your spaniel/collie cross is exhibiting could be a broad generalisation.
> 
> To help with the problem, firstly, do not punish or discipline harshly for growling. The GR is politely demonstrating his discomfort, not being aggressive (yet). You need to control their interactions and only allow interactions to continue when both dogs are calm. The younger dog may not have been taught the correct way to interact or being disciplined himself by parents and could simply be being over-exuberant and untactful. If he does not heed the warnings of your GR, work needs to be done to teach him more polite behaviour.
> 
> Get a qualified, respected behaviourist to help because, since the dogs live with each other, you'll need a good programme in order to stop this escalating. I do think it's very important to throw away the notion of dominance for now and look at things with a more level head.


One thing you've misread - these are bitches, not dogs (you keep saying he, it should be she). Bitch fights can be very serious and there's no denying the hormonal componant. Many people believe there IS a pack order in dogs that live together.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> One thing you've misread - these are bitches, not dogs (you keep saying he, it should be she). Bitch fights can be very serious and there's no denying the hormonal componant. Many people believe there IS a pack order in dogs that live together.


Sorry, I should have put 'she'. Of course, same sex and competitive aggression can be for a number of reasons, but I think it's important to highlight that dominance aggression is quite a fragile notion in current academia. Also, although dogs can be said to form some kind of social group, it's a misconception that they fall into pack order like wolves, and a further misconception that wild wolves fall into a natural dominance hierarchy, which was observed in captive wolves.

If the OP wants to get a behaviourist and she describes the problem as a dominance issue, it could attract the wrong kind of behaviourist, so I think it's important to have an open mind and not revert to dominance when there could be (and most probably is) another reason.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Its also a matter of what breeds/breed mixes you have too. Some breeds are known for same sex aggression, Malamutes for example. A lot of people dont believe in pack order either, but again it depends on the breed, Siberians are a pack dog if you saw them interact/some of the behaviour then it would probably make some people think twice about it. Other breeds like Akitas can be dog agressive too and selective with which dogs they live with.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> One thing you've misread - these are bitches, not dogs (you keep saying he, it should be she). Bitch fights can be very serious and there's no denying the hormonal componant. Many people believe there IS a pack order in dogs that live together.


So where exactly are all these aggressive bitch fights? I've not witnessed them in my own pack, or in anyone else I know with households or kennels full of bitches  I worked in boarding and breeding kennels for a number of years and we had bitches together all the time living, eating, and sleeping - with never a cross word between them. 

I've NEVER witnessed any bitch on bitch aggression in the showring - and in my own breed - there can often be 35/40 bitches in a small area all having to be on their best behaviour.

In fact - most of the time I seem to hear about 'situations' between bitches is on the forums - and quite often one or more of them are neutered 

ETA - do those of you who claim 'bitches are worse' actually have multiple bitches living in your household? and they do they fight all the time


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

swarthy said:


> So where exactly are all these aggressive bitch fights? I've not witnessed them in my own pack, or in anyone else I know with households or kennels full of bitches  I worked in boarding and breeding kennels for a number of years and we had bitches together all the time living, eating, and sleeping - with never a cross word between them.
> 
> I've NEVER witnessed any bitch on bitch aggression in the showring - and in my own breed - there can often be 35/40 bitches in a small area all having to be on their best behaviour.
> 
> ...





leoti said:


> I had this with two bitches recently oner was as payed bitch aged 6 the other a younger entire bitch aged 3 and there fights got worse , we stopped the fights as soon as they kicked off but in the end and after much soul and searching and tears i had to rehome the older bitch, she was found a super home in Cumbria with a amazing family and she is much happier , not saying this will be needed in your case but in my case it resorted after one fight of the younger bitch having to go to vets as her face had been ripped open





Sled dog hotel said:


> Its also a matter of what breeds/breed mixes you have too. Some breeds are known for same sex aggression, Malamutes for example. A lot of people dont believe in pack order either, but again it depends on the breed, Siberians are a pack dog if you saw them interact/some of the behaviour then it would probably make some people think twice about it. Other breeds like Akitas can be dog agressive too and selective with which dogs they live with.


Where's the aggression? Well in Leoti's house for a start! Just because it hasn't happened to you and with your breed doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all.

The show ring is a completely different situation to living together.

Yes, in a lot of cases one of the bitches is spayed. Do you think the unspayed one (with the hormones) knows that?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> Where's the aggression? Well in Leoti's house for a start! Just because it hasn't happened to you and with your breed doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all.
> 
> The show ring is a completely different situation to living together.
> 
> Yes, in a lot of cases one of the bitches is spayed. Do you think the unspayed one (with the hormones) knows that?


I do know people with other breeds - and well aware the showring is different - but it's still a situation with a potential for dog on dog aggression.

My time in the kennels mirrors very much dogs in a home, but confined for most of the time in an area far smaller than they ever would be at home (crates were unheard of then) - and NEVER came across a fight of any breed with bitches - I did encounter a few with dogs though.

I know it is happening in Leoti's house, and I appreciate I've not given much constructive advice - but the way people write here and on other forums, it's almost as if you should expect this with bitches - when reality tells us very differently.

Some child siblings hate the sight of each other - this doesn't mean you are guaranteed to have problems with certain combinations of genders and ages -similarly - some dogs won't like each other, some bitches won't like each other and some dogs won't like the bitches they live with and visa versa.

=====================================

With regards to hormones and neutered households - I am aware that neutered dogs often smell like bitches in season - and that neutering one male dog has caused riots afterwards in a previously extremely harmonious household - but again between the dogs and bitches - not the bitches or dogs


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I have a pack of 6 entire bitches 5 entire dogs and 1 castrated male. I like Swarthy have never had a problem. Granted 3 of my bitches are related my foundation bitch is the pack leader and the other dogs all know this. I have had 2 older bitches come to live in the pack and had no probelms introducing them to the dominant bitch. I have a minor squabble between grandaughter and grandmother once but the older bitch soon put the youngster in her place.

On the other hand I have had on a couple of occasions had fights between the males. It is most likely that they have picked up on a bitch that is coming into season. Their fights are always handbags at dawn all noise and not a lot else and they usually share a dish of food notlong after their squabble..

Whippets do tend to like living in packs and get on well with their own kind but 2 of my bitches are not whippets a greyhound and an irish setter and these 2 just join in the the rest of the pack although the greyhound can be a little aloof with the whippets.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Freyja said:


> I have a pack of 6 entire bitches 5 entire dogs and 1 castrated male. I like Swarthy have never had a problem. Granted 3 of my bitches are related my foundation bitch is the pack leader and the other dogs all know this. I have had 2 older bitches come to live in the pack and had no probelms introducing them *to the dominant bitch*. I have a minor squabble between grandaughter and grandmother once but the older bitch soon put the youngster in her place.
> 
> On the other hand I have had on a couple of occasions had fights between the males. It is most likely that they have picked up on a bitch that is coming into season. Their fights are always handbags at dawn all noise and not a lot else and they usually share a dish of food notlong after their squabble..
> 
> Whippets do tend to like living in packs and get on well with their own kind but 2 of my bitches are not whippets a greyhound and an irish setter and these 2 just join in the the rest of the pack although the greyhound can be a little aloof with the whippets.


So you agree there can be a dominant bitch?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

At the end of the day, I think the answer is yes it can be done a lot of us have done it succesfully, but if you have two same sexes or more that are not going to get on then it can be a big problem. Every dog is different, some are going to get on some are not. Some are going to co-exist happilly without competing. Wrong pairing and they are going to compete over everything, some cases it will be hormone based like seasons with bitches and with careful management during the time and/or spaying will settle and not re-occur. Same with Males a bitch in season can set them off but they can be ok the rest of the time and after. Dogs are dogs with built in instincts and drives, its not a child you can give a pep talk to and tell them its not nice behaviour and they shouldnt do it. A dog is what he is, we can modify behaviours and manage them and in a lot of cases sort any problems, but its a dog first and foremost.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> At the end of the day, I think the answer is yes it can be done a lot of us have done it succesfully, but if you have two same sexes or more that are not going to get on then it can be a big problem. Every dog is different, some are going to get on some are not. Some are going to co-exist happilly without competing. Wrong pairing and they are going to compete over everything, some cases it will be hormone based like seasons with bitches and with careful management during the time and/or spaying will settle and not re-occur. Same with Males a bitch in season can set them off but they can be ok the rest of the time and after. Dogs are dogs with built in instincts and drives, its not a child you can give a pep talk to and tell them its not nice behaviour and they shouldnt do it. A dog is what he is, we can modify behaviours and manage them and in a lot of cases sort any problems, but its a dog first and foremost.


You can easily have dogs and bitches that don't get on as well - it's NOT a gender thing, it's an individual 'dog' thing - just in the same way some humans don't get on.

Likewise - as above - the majority of people I know of who have had disharmony within their house - at least one or more of their dogs has been neutered - so not really a hormone thing either  OTOH - I can fully understand tension between males when there is a bitch in season around.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> So you agree there can be a dominant bitch?


Although I describe Tegan as a dominant bitch she isn't overly dominant more in a matriarch way. She is the old lady of the pack and the others have always respected this. I do not back her up as the dominant dog she the dogs get fed in whatever or I choose to feed them she doesn't necessarily go into the garden or for walks first. I take whoever I want first and greet who ever I want first but she is the one that the whole pack respect


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

_all else being equal - * opposite sex is always the safest bet. * 
Male-to-Male posturing, wrangles in parks, etc, are often more noise than physical assault with intent to maim. 
*bitches fight in the same-home for BREATHING rights - males may fight for BREEDING rights.*_ 
when estrus is over, the males May -not always, but often - return to their prior tolerance or sociable selves. 
*many bitches, after One Fight which causes minor injury, never lay down their weapons again. 
they have long memories for a grudge - * dogs may forgive + forget, or have specific triggers - 
food, a bone, pig's-ear, vying for attention, a toy, a coveted spot - these are relatively easy to control + avoid.

*it's not that rare for bitches to have one quarrel, and it is impossible to share space again - 
period. * i'm not the only trainer who has seen this; it's a well-known phenomenon, and can occur even among 
Labs, Goldens, and other relatively low-aggro breeds. 
it's quite common among Nordics, LGDs, guarding-breeds, terrierrrists, big-game dogs, etc. 
it's relatively rare among companion breeds - Cav-KCS, Pekes, etc.

*former-fighters are especially prone to this - BOSTON [Bull And] TERRIERRRISTS are toys *now* 
but their origin is among the ex-'pit' breeds, and they're highly susceptible to bitch-wars, as are APBTs, Staffies, 
AmStaffs, AmBulls and other bully-breeds.*


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> Where's the aggression? Well in Leoti's house for a start! Just because it hasn't happened to you and with your breed doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all.
> 
> The show ring is a completely different situation to living together.
> 
> Yes, in a lot of cases one of the bitches is spayed. Do you think the unspayed one (with the hormones) knows that?


This is so true

we went 18 months trying to sort out issues between 2 of our girls one spayed one not, we had the one not spayed, spayed and i wish we hadnt as her aggression towards the other female increased tenfold and like one of the other posters we sadly had to let molly go as she was the one starting the fights and even becoming intollorent towards the others in our gang.

The fights were horrendous with Ella being very badly hurt by molly in the last 2 fights, dogs seem to have a spat and its over, bitches when they get a notion they seem to want to fight to the bitter end. Molly is now so happy being an only dog with a super family. I should add that Ella and Molly were fine outside of our home and garden environment together.

I must add that i have 4 bitches ella whos spayed and the other 3 not and all get along famously, not one issue ever between them


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