# Help? Contradictions Everywhere!!



## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

Hi. Going to open self up to ridicule I imagine, but so many people including Vets, trainers, owners seem to have a differing opinion on training methods, each claiming theirs is THE definitive guide and all others are wrong, dangerous or heaven knows what. Needless to say, there usually something being sold or advertised by these people. All this does is confuse a novice owner looking for genuine advice and compounds any problem, rather than allieviate it. There is no interest in helping the dog, the interest is in lining pockets of said people.

I have therefore a couple of genuine queries. I am a total blank page and do not have the knowledge or experience to have an opinion or favour any method of training. However I'm mystified on where parent dogs are buying treats for their litter when raising them. There is no queue of dogs in the Express Lane in Tesco. Secondly why is it accepted (generally) a dog needs time to learn and develop 'good habits', when in reality they only need seconds to develop 'bad ones'? I can speak from experience on the latter.

As writing this I realise in fact I am questioning thr treat and reward system of training? A bad dog recieves rewards for 'normal' behaviour? A good dog recieves nothing for doing the same? What if my dog somehow slips his lead when out? If I've not got 'treats' on me do I tell him to.hang on while I run down the shop and back? Can you see the obvious? He won't wait while I'm gone because there's nothing in it for him.

If I'm missing something obvious I apologise. I am asking because I don't understand.

Neither am I plugging a product or service. It is education and advice I require. If I'm wrong, so be it, I'm not claiming any of the above is correct, they are honest observations thats all and this post is not meant to be inflammatory and neither does it curse or intentionally insult.

Any help or correction is welcome?


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## Valerie Cotton (Oct 7, 2019)

I understand. I am so confused by all the conflicting advice and training techniques on offer. I also question the constant use of treats to train. My dog seems to misbehave just so he can then behave to get a treat.


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## Ian246 (Oct 27, 2018)

That's a really interesting question, @Dave D, but I'd suggest (in the nicest way) that you're missing the point a bit. Adult dogs don't provide treats to get the puppies to do the 'right' thing, because they don't want the pups to walk to heel, to sit, to stay, go to the toilet in a certain area, etc, etc. They do teach young dogs certain things but they are able to do that because they can master dog body language, communicate, use pheromones, etc - and puppies are genetically programmed to do certain things.
Essentially, as with many domesticated animals we are forcing dogs to live in an alien environment. We want them to do things that are alien to them. We encourage them to do those things by offering treats (if they are food focused - not all dogs are.) Tied to that is understanding, kindness, etc, etc. You cannot force a dog to do anything it does not want to...we encourage them, using whatever helps them to comply with what we want.
If your dog slips his lead and runs off down the street, you're so far behind the drag curve (at that stage) that grabbing for treats is a waste if time. You cannot change a dog's mind with treats if he's already doing the thing you didn't want him to do, if, for example, he's decided that he wants to run off. Hopefully, in reality, you will have trained your dog to walk nicely to heel; you will have trained a recall so that if he did slip his lead (how?) he will respond to you. (That's not to suggest that you're failing if things ever go wrong - if a dog is frightened enough it's going to be hard in many cases to stop it running away...or doing one of the things (fight, flight or freeze) that come so naturally.)
You encourage your dog to do what you want by offering treats (if that's what does it). That gives him pleasure. In his mind he associates a sound (your command) and some action - his fulfilment of some weird thing you like him to do - with a pleasurable thing, so he does it again. It helps, of course, if some of the things we get dogs to do fit with what they would do anyway (so, getting a dog to use it's nose for particular things - drugs, explosives, whatever, harnesses and focuses something the dog dies naturally). Most of the things WE train dogs to do are not natural, so we find a way if convincing them to do it - and it can take time, but it needs patience and consistency. Oh, and it never stops: those weird things we want dogs to do have to be repeated for the rest of their lives really - we have to keep encouraging them to do the things we want them to do.

Does that help?


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## Ian246 (Oct 27, 2018)

Valerie Cotton said:


> I understand. I am so confused by all the conflicting advice and training techniques on offer. I also question the constant use of treats to train. My dog seems to misbehave just so he can then behave to get a treat.


The answer is, I think, to pick a method that appeals to you (and seems sensible) and apply it (as long as it uses 'positive' methods (ie, it's not 'training'' through punishment)). You need to be consistent and keep at it. If you jump from one method to another your dog will just get confused. Your dog isn't misbehaving to get treats - he is not even deliberately misbehaving. He may not understand what you want him to do, or he may not be sufficiently keen to do it that something else does not distract him. 
As I said in reply to the OP, it does take patience and consistency - remember you will probably get bored before your dog does. Similarly, if he/she does get bored of whatever training your doing, it's time to call it a day - or you need to find a way of keeping it fun. Dogs can only concentrate for so long which is why training should be fun to be effective (same as humans!)


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## Ian246 (Oct 27, 2018)

@Dave D, I'll add that I think you need to think about 'good' and 'bad' behaviour. It goes back to what I said about us getting dogs to do things that are alien to them. Dogs generally don't do 'bad' things. They do what's natural to them. If they're really confused or frightened (your fault as the owner/trainer) it may try all kinds of things in the hope that something satisfies you. We declare things 'bad' because they don't appeal to us, they're just not what WE want the dog to do. You might say the dog is being bad if it chews the furniture while you're out. In reality it's probably (possibly) stressed through separation anxiety. You might say the dog is 'bad' because it's crapped in the house, despite the fact that over the last few days (may be longer) it hasn't soiled in the house. I'd say it either isn't properly toilet-trained - you'd just been lucky previously; or, it has developed a problem (stomach upset, perhaps) which means it could not wait to go outside. Either way, it's not being 'deliberately' bad.
The view of 'good' and 'bad' is ours. Your task is to get your dog to understand what YOU want it to do. If you do that using positive reinforcement, by encouraging it to do the right thing, rather than punishing it fit doing the wrong thing (not that Im suggesting you do), you will have far more success.

Nothing inflammatory in your post, by the way - it's a really good question!


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Very comprehensive and sensible reply from @Ian246.

When you're puzzled or frustrated by something your dog does (or doesn't) do just ask yourself: Is he just being a dog?

Dogs don't do stubborn, or difficult, or bad. These are all human traits.

Dogs are honest in their reactions and comprehension, and expect you to be too.

If your dog isn't doing what you want it is because either you aren't being clear what you want or you're asking something of him which is beyond his learning or capabilities to achieve.

Treats (or whatever else floats your dog's boat) are used because anything which is rewarded is repeated. Sometimes it takes a lot of repetition and rewarding before you get the chain of 'command, action, reward', and sometimes it takes a while for a dog to put together that a specific action brings a reward. Usually this is down to bad timing or lack of clarity on behalf of the handler.

Most of the 'bad things' that dogs learn quickly, as you put it, are things that are self-rewarding; pinching a sausage from a worktop is instant gratification for your dog and however much you tell him off after the event you'll never over-ride the instant and special reward of that sausage.

A lesson in timing that can be applied to all training.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dave D said:


> As writing this I realise in fact I am questioning thr treat and reward system of training? A bad dog recieves rewards for 'normal' behaviour? A good dog recieves nothing for doing the same? What if my dog somehow slips his lead when out? If I've not got 'treats' on me do I tell him to.hang on while I run down the shop and back? Can you see the obvious? He won't wait while I'm gone because there's nothing in it for him.


The reward system is Positive reinforcement and the reward can be anything the dogs likes not just treats .
Good point about good dogs not being rewarded. They should be randomly rewarded. 
Perhaps it would be best if you read a book about dog training that will explain it more thoroughly. .

How dogs learn by birch and bailey is a good book . It explains all the terms that are used in dog training eg schedules of reinforcement etc.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Valerie Cotton said:


> I understand. I am so confused by all the conflicting advice and training techniques on offer. I also question the constant use of treats to train. My dog seems to misbehave just so he can then behave to get a treat.


perhaps you need to look at your training technique , he's learning what you teach him. He;s probably doing what he thinks you want him to do to get the reward. Its easy to teach a dog the wrong thing. Ive done it myself. 
Could you give an example of what he does?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dave D said:


> Hi. Going to open self up to ridicule I imagine, but so many people including Vets, trainers, owners seem to have a differing opinion on training methods, each claiming theirs is THE definitive guide and all others are wrong, dangerous or heaven knows what. Needless to say, there usually something being sold or advertised by these people. All this does is confuse a novice owner looking for genuine advice and compounds any problem, rather than allieviate it. There is no interest in helping the dog, the interest is in lining pockets of said people.
> 
> I have therefore a couple of genuine queries. I am a total blank page and do not have the knowledge or experience to have an opinion or favour any method of training. However I'm mystified on where parent dogs are buying treats for their litter when raising them. There is no queue of dogs in the Express Lane in Tesco. Secondly why is it accepted (generally) a dog needs time to learn and develop 'good habits', when in reality they only need seconds to develop 'bad ones'? I can speak from experience on the latter.
> 
> ...


No ridicule here  
I'm probably going to echo a lot of what @Ian246 has said, but it's a fairly common question actually, and deserves the reply.

No, parent dogs don't provide their offspring with treats, but they do establish a relationship with their pups based on providing for the pups needs, both physical and emotional. 
And as already stated, parent dogs aren't asking their pups to sit on cue, come when called, heel, tolerate the mail carrier approaching the house every day, not jump on visitors... 
So when we teach a dog to sit and reward the desired behavior with a treat, we are not only making that behavior stronger, but we're also creating a positive emotional connection between us and our dogs.

Bears mentioning here that there is a subtle, but very important distinction between bribing your dog and positive reinforcement. I'll use a toy as an example, because rewards don't always have to be food. 
Bribery = "I have a ball, if you want it, you'll have to sit." Dog sits. I give the dog the ball.
Positive reinforcement = I give a known and understood cue for 'sit', dog sits, and I reward the behavior by offering a favorite toy, or better, a game with a favorite toy. Interestingly, varying the reward by sometimes playing, sometimes giving a treat, sometimes just a 'good boy', sometimes nothing at all is even more effective in strengthening the behavior than predictably rewarding every single time.

And with the positive emotional response you build, eventually the behavior itself becomes rewarding in that the dog feels pleasure simply doing the behavior. 
Therefore when your dog slips his lead and runs off, you say 'come' and because you have trained, proofed, and rewarded compliance, your dog happily complies with the cue whether you have a reward on you or not.

You have a GSD do you not? 
Are you familiar with Suzanne Clothier? GSD breeder and dog training/behavior expert. Incredibly perceptive and knowledgeable woman, and a hoot to listen to  Anyway, she talks of 'relationship based training' and I like this descriptor better. 
Dogs are not just intelligent beings who can be trained, they are also emotional beings who develop deep, connected relationships with us. If you can get the relationship part right, the training part is just icing on the cake.


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## Valerie Cotton (Oct 7, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> perhaps you need to look at your training technique , he's learning what you teach him. He;s probably doing what he thinks you want him to do to get the reward. Its easy to teach a dog the wrong thing. Ive done it myself.
> Could you give an example of what he does?


The main issue is walking on the lead. He jumps at my pockets for treats and gets more and more wound up, biting the lead, my coat, wellies etc.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Interestingly, varying the reward by sometimes playing, sometimes giving a treat, sometimes just a 'good boy', sometimes nothing at all is even more effective in strengthening the behavior


This is important and I know I often forget to mention it - it's like the reason people play games of chance (fruit machines, rock paper scissors) - it adds a dimension that is exciting.



Valerie Cotton said:


> The main issue is walking on the lead. He jumps at my pockets for treats and gets more and more wound up, biting the lead, my coat, wellies etc.


@Valerie Cotton you have had quite a lot of advice over the last few days, are you trying any of the suggestions? I should add that you might first see something called extinction burst. This is when a behaviour that used to get attention no longer works for the dog so he tries it all the harder and it seems like things are getting worse, not better. This is good, because it means that what you are doing is starting to work.


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## Valerie Cotton (Oct 7, 2019)

I know, which is why it gets so confusing sometimes. The method I was trying was a half check collar and a sharp tug downwards with a sit command. It worked for a few days, then he got worse. Then I read advice on here and it said it could be road anxiety and that strict commands, worrying the dog etc, was not the way to go. I've lost confidence to be honest so I've cut down the amount of time he's on the lead with me. I drive him somewhere where we can have a country walk and a run in fields. My son takes him for a road walk in the evening and he's fine with him. I'm concentrating on upping the training in the home - working on the touching nose to hand command, and going back to basics with a few other things. I suspect your extinction burst theory is correct, but then the conflicting advice put me off continuing with that as if it was road anxiety I might be making him worse.
Just as a separate point, the first bit of advice I ever got was to read a book called The Dog Listener. I did and stuck by that. Then I did an online dog behavioural course which basically contradicted everything that was said in that book. It's no wonder people get confused. I'm just doing my best.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Valerie Cotton said:


> The main issue is walking on the lead. He jumps at my pockets for treats and gets more and more wound up, biting the lead, my coat, wellies etc.


That is annoying when they do that. Ive just realised that you have already posted about this. I hope the advice helps.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I don't know the book but trends in dog training have progressed over recent years as we have learned more about dog psychology and behaviour. So some theories that were popular 20 years ago are now known to be less effective and have been superseded by more effective ones. Unfortunately some diehard trainers do still promote old fashioned techniques because they haven't updated their knowledge. And, in the short term some harsh punitive techniques appear to work, because they are unpleasant for the dog so he stops what he was doing. However we have only addressed the surface behaviour, not the root cause, which remains and longer term may result in another problem. Or the dog withdraws, does what we call "closing down" and becomes reluctant to do anything for fear of doing the wrong thing.

If you think of people you have worked with, or teachers, the ones you normally will respond to are those who inspire you and encourage you, not the ones who have no good word to say to you.

@O2.0 has a good explanation of this, hopefully she will add it later.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Valerie Cotton said:


> I know, which is why it gets so confusing sometimes. The method I was trying was a half check collar and a sharp tug downwards with a sit command. It worked for a few days, then he got worse. Then I read advice on here and it said it could be road anxiety and that strict commands, worrying the dog etc, was not the way to go. I've lost confidence to be honest so I've cut down the amount of time he's on the lead with me. I drive him somewhere where we can have a country walk and a run in fields. My son takes him for a road walk in the evening and he's fine with him. I'm concentrating on upping the training in the home - working on the touching nose to hand command, and going back to basics with a few other things. I suspect your extinction burst theory is correct, but then the conflicting advice put me off continuing with that as if it was road anxiety I might be making him worse.
> Just as a separate point, the first bit of advice I ever got was to read a book called The Dog Listener. I did and stuck by that. Then I did an online dog behavioural course which basically contradicted everything that was said in that book. It's no wonder people get confused. I'm just doing my best.


I think you can work this one out for yourself.

Every time he approaches/ is by a road he gets a 'sharp tug' on the collar; ie roads mean something unpleasant is going to happen to him. So he's stressed at the appearance of the road scenario. Stressed dogs don't know how to behave, stressed dogs cannot learn, and stressed dogs will look for a behaviour that alleviates their stress/ focuses their handlers attention; your dog is looking for help with this and you aren't giving it.

'The Dog Listener' is (unless it's been updated) a book based on outdated and debunked training theory and I'm sure Jan Fennell would be the first to admit it, but in those days you worked with what you had. Check out the date the book was published/re-printed.

Also be aware of the difference between a treat used as a reward and a treat used as a 'lure'.

A lure is to help guide your dog to what you want him to do, when he is reliably doing the action you add the command and phase out the lure ASAP, replacing it with a reward after he's complied.

To start with you would reward every time the dog does it right, on command, then again phase out the treats to become random; only for the best/quickest response.
Once a behaviour is trained then re-inforce randomly to keep the behaviour sharp. This need not be treats at this stage, it could be a toy or praise, if your dog values them.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Valerie Cotton said:


> I know, which is why it gets so confusing sometimes. The method I was trying was a half check collar and a sharp tug downwards with a sit command. It worked for a few days, then he got worse. Then I read advice on here and it said it could be road anxiety and that strict commands, worrying the dog etc, was not the way to go. I've lost confidence to be honest so I've cut down the amount of time he's on the lead with me. I drive him somewhere where we can have a country walk and a run in fields. My son takes him for a road walk in the evening and he's fine with him. I'm concentrating on upping the training in the home - working on the touching nose to hand command, and going back to basics with a few other things. I suspect your extinction burst theory is correct, but then the conflicting advice put me off continuing with that as if it was road anxiety I might be making him worse.
> Just as a separate point, the first bit of advice I ever got was to read a book called The Dog Listener. I did and stuck by that. Then I did an online dog behavioural course which basically contradicted everything that was said in that book. It's no wonder people get confused. I'm just doing my best.


I was the same , I saw jan Fennells TV programme years ago and had her books. Then I went on line in 2000 and found that things had changed . thats interesting about the course . Ive done two with Think dog . What course did you do. ?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Rewarding a dog with treats is a relatively new thing. I've owned dogs for over 60 years and it was only 10 years ago I started to train my dogs using treats, mostly because the puppy I was training was virtually blind.

Since then, although I do use treats especially when a dog is very young or I've only recently acquired, I still prefer to use praise, touch and body language as rewards. 

If I'm honest I find having to carry treats around with me very annoying and I'm often guilty of forgetting to take any with me, so it's probably just as well my two respond to praise as well as they do to being rewarded with treats.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Valerie Cotton said:


> Just as a separate point, the first bit of advice I ever got was to read a book called The Dog Listener. I did and stuck by that. Then I did an online dog behavioural course which basically contradicted everything that was said in that book. It's no wonder people get confused. I'm just doing my best.


Is The Dog Listener the Jan Fennel book? I don't know the book or the author, just what I have heard on here, but if it's the one I'm thinking, then yes, I would imagine you would be rather confused at this point.

There is a lot of focus in dog training about 'leadership' often confused with dominance and/or alpha etc. 
I could write all day about the fallacies and problems with this mentality, but I think the bottom line is that we as a society don't really understand what leadership means. Just look at our political 'leaders'  Very clearly we've gotten lost on the meaning of being a leader.

We tend to focus on being the one in charge aspect of leadership, or worse, taking charge as a leader. But that's not what leadership is or what our dogs need from us. Leadership is about taking responsibility and caring for those in your charge. When a dog sees you attending to his needs, both physical and emotional; when a dog feels you are a source of security, stability, and yep, fun; when a dog know he can rely on you to 'hear' him when he shows distress or worry about something... This is how you establish yourself as a leader to your dog.

Unfortunately, when we are told to do things like "check" a dog who is showing fear or confusion, all you have done is shown your dog that a) you will not listen when he is fearful, b) you are not a source of stability when he is confused, and that basically he can't rely on you. The exact opposite of a leader.
In many cases the dog does indeed seem to improve because instead of doing the undesirable thing, the dog learns to do nothing rather than risk the correction. But lack of behavior does not equal well behaved, and does not equal confident, happy, engaged either.

Every interaction we have with our dogs is an opportunity to develop or diminish our relationship with them. I try to remember that


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Linda Weasel said:


> The Dog Listener' is (unless it's been updated) a book based on outdated and debunked training theory and I'm sure Jan Fennell would be the first to admit it,


Sadly not... Still up with the dogs are wolves theory, and actually a devoted friend follower of a certain Mexican. Also working with horses sadly too. 
Off topic to some extent but some trainers will never change their attitude to training, no matter what facts are there.. There are still some appalling trainers out there. Still some terrible advise.. So I can see why people like the OP get confused.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> Rewarding a dog with treats is a relatively new thing.


Nah... Offering dogs food as a way to get them to do what we want is arguably as old as cave man luring proto-dog pup to the fire with a tidbit from whatever was cooking on the fire. Dogs developing the gene for amylase, the enzyme that digests starch is one of their key differences between ancient wolves and ancient dogs. Ancient dogs weren't hunting down herds of tubers, they were getting them from ancient man. We've been feeding dogs all along


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> Sadly not... Still up with the dogs are wolves theory, and actually a devoted friend follower of a certain Mexican. Also working with horses sadly too.
> Off topic to some extent but some trainers will never change their attitude to training, no matter what facts are there.. There are still some appalling trainers out there. Still some terrible advise.. So I can see why people like the OP get confused.


Sad. Not you; JF.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Nah... Offering dogs food as a way to get them to do what we want is arguably as old as cave man luring proto-dog pup to the fire with a tidbit from whatever was cooking on the fire. Dogs developing the gene for amylase, the enzyme that digests starch is one of their key differences between ancient wolves and ancient dogs. Ancient dogs weren't hunting down herds of tubers, they were getting them from ancient man. We've been feeding dogs all along


I appreciate that and to clarify, what is relatively new is the commercialisation of treats and the importance of them in training. It wasn't so long ago I'd think nothing of walking my dogs sans mobile and treat bag, and now I carry both a mobile and treats with me on the most of our walks!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> I appreciate that and to clarify, what is relatively new is the commercialisation of treats and the importance of them in training. It wasn't so long ago I'd think nothing of walking my dogs sans mobile and treat bag, and now I carry both a mobile and treats with me on the most of our walks!


Being annoyingly pedantic, walking a dog is a relatively new trend too in a way. It wasn't so long ago that only those who needed a dog to work had dogs, and for those dogs, the work is the reward. We humans have made sure of that by selectively breeding for a dog who finds the job we're asking them to do rewarding. You don't need to give a collie a treat for bringing in the sheep, or throw a ball for your beagle to thank him for tracking the rabbit. (Though the beagle won't turn down a treat if you're offering  ) 
But yeah, people who had dogs, worked their dogs, they didn't walk them. And people who had lap dogs didn't walk them. Not like we do now where we make a point of giving the dog enough exercise and mental stimulation.

I just find the whole history and evolution of our dog/human relationship fascinating 

I got in to the habit of carrying treats with puppies and new rescues, but these days I rarely have treats on me when Bates and I are out. He's 11 this year, if he's not trained by now I might as well give it up LOL
He still gets rewarded of course, just not with treats. A good butt rub, attention, and just being out together enjoying each others company is reward enough at this point.

When my friend's dogs come to visit I sometimes bring treats on walks, sometimes not. The sighthound isn't a foodie (shocking, I know) and one thing I do with her is, I watch the other dogs, when they get a good sniff spot, I call her over and point it out to her too. She defaults to looking around (_sight_hound), and misses the good smells, but she enjoys a good sniff so I point those out to her. Through repetition she knows that often when I call it's to point out a good smell, this keeps her recall with me very reliable.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

JoanneF said:


> I don't know the book but trends in dog training have progressed over recent years as we have learned more about dog psychology and behaviour. So some theories that were popular 20 years ago are now known to be less effective and have been superseded by more effective ones. Unfortunately some diehard trainers do still promote old fashioned techniques because they haven't updated their knowledge. And, in the short term some harsh punitive techniques appear to work, because they are unpleasant for the dog so he stops what he was doing. However we have only addressed the surface behaviour, not the root cause, which remains and longer term may result in another problem. Or the dog withdraws, does what we call "closing down" and becomes reluctant to do anything for fear of doing the wrong thing.
> 
> If you think of people you have worked with, or teachers, the ones you normally will respond to are those who inspire you and encourage you, not the ones who have no good word to say to you.
> 
> @O2.0 has a good explanation of this, hopefully she will add it later.


20 years ago seems quite recent to older people. It is funny how everything has progressed so much that instead of having obedient loyal companions we now have nervous wrecks that are incapable of living in a social environment and are not able to function as a family member.



Magyarmum said:


> Rewarding a dog with treats is a relatively new thing. I've owned dogs for over 60 years and it was only 10 years ago I started to train my dogs using treats, mostly because the puppy I was training was virtually blind.
> 
> Since then, although I do use treats especially when a dog is very young or I've only recently acquired, I still prefer to use praise, touch and body language as rewards.
> 
> If I'm honest I find having to carry treats around with me very annoying and I'm often guilty of forgetting to take any with me, so it's probably just as well my two respond to praise as well as they do to being rewarded with treats.


Same here.



O2.0 said:


> Nah... Offering dogs food as a way to get them to do what we want is arguably as old as cave man luring proto-dog pup to the fire with a tidbit from whatever was cooking on the fire. Dogs developing the gene for amylase, the enzyme that digests starch is one of their key differences between ancient wolves and ancient dogs. Ancient dogs weren't hunting down herds of tubers, they were getting them from ancient man. We've been feeding dogs all along


We have been feeding dogs but not stuffing treats down their faces like so many do now. I cannot stand seeing people with their dog watching the treat bag and having treats freely dispensed at intervals. I have watched videos of dogs being given treats when they recall. Oh yes, they come back fast enough but 9 times out of 10 they seem to just grab the treat and run off again. They seem to be totally treat orientated rather than owner/handler orientated. When I first got involved in dog training 50 years ago everything was done with voice praise. Not a sign of a treat or toy. And you know what, dogs trained with correct timing with praise alone were really really handler orientated and picked up very quickly on what was wanted.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

By the way, the OPs example of a dog slipping its lead and running off. I cannot see why any dog would run off, surely they should be trained to wait, down or come reliably and have no desire to run off. I frequently drop a lead and my dogs wait. I have only once had a scary moment. I let my collie cross out of the back of the car at the vets. The car park is a pavement width from a busy road and the car was in front ways so dog was jumping out literally at the traffic. The clip gave on the lead and she was loose. I yelled down and down she went. Another step and she would have been hit. Not sure either of my current ones would stop that instantly but they would stop.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> We have been feeding dogs but not stuffing treats down their faces like so many do now. I cannot stand seeing people with their dog watching the treat bag and having treats freely dispensed at intervals. I have watched videos of dogs being given treats when they recall. Oh yes, they come back fast enough but 9 times out of 10 they seem to just grab the treat and run off again. They seem to be totally treat orientated rather than owner/handler orientated. When I first got involved in dog training 50 years ago everything was done with voice praise. Not a sign of a treat or toy. And you know what, dogs trained with correct timing with praise alone were really really handler orientated and picked up very quickly on what was wanted.


I'm sure you also cannot stand to watch someone repeatedly checking their dog wholly ineffectively while the dog winces and shies away from the handler. Poor training is poor training whether it's ill timed, poorly executed corrections or 'shoving' treats at a dog who's more interested in the treats than in the handler. And frankly I'd rather see a dog obsessed with the treats an owner has than shying away from the owner.

I've posted multiple videos of me working Bates. He's treat trained, and you know well he's about as handler oriented as they come.

50 years ago the dogs in the obedience ring were all the same group of breeds. Breeds that had been bred for centuries to be handler oriented and find working with a handler rewarding. 
Now you see all sorts of breeds doing and excelling at obedience. I find that a good thing


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Blitz said:


> we now have nervous wrecks that are incapable of living in a social environment


Do you think perhaps our experience of this sort of thing is skewed by using the forum - we see a lot of questions from people experiencing problems - it's why they make the post - but for every problem there are dozens of dogs who are absolutely fine. We just don't come across them.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Oh, and it seems there are so many more dogs around - lots of them not well bred (I'm thinking puppy farms).


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I'm sure you also cannot stand to watch someone repeatedly checking their dog wholly ineffectively while the dog winces and shies away from the handler.


 Absolutely ! I still see advice on-line about kneeing a dog in the chest when it jumps up you . Why on earth do people think that's acceptable .


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I'm sure you also cannot stand to watch someone repeatedly checking their dog wholly ineffectively while the dog winces and shies away from the handler. Poor training is poor training whether it's ill timed, poorly executed corrections or 'shoving' treats at a dog who's more interested in the treats than in the handler. And frankly I'd rather see a dog obsessed with the treats an owner has than shying away from the owner.
> 
> I've posted multiple videos of me working Bates. He's treat trained, and you know well he's about as handler oriented as they come.
> 
> ...


No, that is no use either but a well timed check can teach a dog instantly what is wanted. The people that seem to shove treats at dogs non stop are, in my experience, people who think they know a lot about dogs.



JoanneF said:


> Do you think perhaps our experience of this sort of thing is skewed by using the forum - we see a lot of questions from people experiencing problems - it's why they make the post - but for every problem there are dozens of dogs who are absolutely fine. We just don't come across them.


You are probably right on that one, but it is still scary that there are dogs like that. And I know we should not compare like for like but children are 'trained' in much the same way and there are horrific statistics on children with mental health problems. When children had firm boundaries and were punished when necessary they did not have the problems they have now.



JoanneF said:


> Oh, and it seems there are so many more dogs around - lots of them not well bred (I'm thinking puppy farms).


But years ago most family pets were not 'well bred'. They came from a neighbour whose bitch had got out and been mated by the local wandering dog. They were born in the kitchen, automatically became accustomed to family life and usually went on to be nice pets. Not always, but those that had problems were never bred from as they were put down usually.


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## deecee (Dec 19, 2017)

I think people all too often confuse training a specific behaviour (sit, down, stay etc) with having a well mannered dog. Whilst each will impact the other, training a behaviour is much easier than the nurturing the generalised well mannered dog.

It's like teaching children. If you're trying to teach your child to walk (i.e. your dog to sit), you don't do it by shouting at them when they fall (i.e. leash correction). You do it with praise and encouragement (i.e. treats, play, affection). If you want a well-mannered child, you don't do it with constant praise and encouragement. You do it with rules, structure, leadership and consistency. The same is true for a dog. As O.2 (I think) said, true leadership isn't built on authoritarianism and coercion.

Remember, teaching specific behaviours is fast. You can teach a dig to sit in a couple of minutes. Teaching generalised behaviours takes time and consistency. It's taken a couple of years for my dog to understand "out" (leave the room/area) to the point where it applies to any room, a bush, tree-line etc.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> No, that is no use either but a well timed check can teach a dog instantly what is wanted. The people that seem to shove treats at dogs non stop are, in my experience, people who think they know a lot about dogs.


Meh, Cesar Millan thinks he knows a lot about dogs...

As for a well timed check teaching a dog what is wanted, actually it doesn't. 
By definition a check is punishment (done effectively that is). Punishment doesn't teach the dog what to do, it teaches a dog to not do something. So a check is teaching a dog what is not wanted. 
A well executed reinforcement (in the way of treats, praise, play, opportunity to work etc.) will teach a dog what is wanted, or what will earn the reward.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Blitz said:


> No, that is no use either but a well timed check can teach a dog instantly what is wanted. The people that seem to shove treats at dogs non stop are, in my experience, people who think they know a lot about dogs.
> 
> You are probably right on that one, but it is still scary that there are dogs like that. And I know we should not compare like for like but children are 'trained' in much the same way and there are horrific statistics on children with mental health problems. When children had firm boundaries and were punished when necessary they did not have the problems they have now.
> 
> But years ago most family pets were not 'well bred'. They came from a neighbour whose bitch had got out and been mated by the local wandering dog. They were born in the kitchen, automatically became accustomed to family life and usually went on to be nice pets. Not always, but those that had problems were never bred from as they were put down usually.


Sure. But they weren't kept in the conditions puppy farm bitches are.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> No, that is no use either but a well timed check can teach a dog instantly what is wanted. The people that seem to shove treats at dogs non stop are, in my experience, people who think they know a lot about dogs.


So run me through how you teach a dog what the correction with the choke means .


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

When I started training dogs and their people decades ago, the ‘Choke/Check chain was the preferred training tool, because we didn’t know any better. If anybody needs to know the procedures for teaching any particular exercise I can probably outline it.

The methodology is; if the dog does something you don’t want, you hurt him, or if he’s not quick enough to do something you want you hurt him. You use the check collar for this, giving it a hard enough yank that the dog never wants that experience again, so watches very carefully to avoid a repetition.

In our defence, nobody then realised what sentient creatures dogs are, and gave them little credit for any intelligence other than the ability to learn not to do things that they were punished for.
Nobody looked for a ‘relationship’ with their dog but lots of people appreciated a ‘trained’ dog as being less trouble to keep.

Now I feel that if I can’t train a dog without hurting or frightening it, then I’ll give up.

Bring on the treats and toys.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> So run me through how you teach a dog what the correction with the choke means .


The important thing is the timing of both the correction and praise. The very word 'choke' gives a wrong impression, a check chain or half check or even an ordinary collar or even check with a harness. I was taught that you asked the dog, then you showed it , then you insisted and the moment there is any sign of it happening you praise like mad. I hate not being shown clearly what is wanted and the 'modern' way of teaching where you have to work it out for yourself. I get frustrated and upset if I cannot get it right but if I am shown clearly and instantly I am happy and I am sure most dogs are the same. When my daughter was at school, admittedly 20 years ago, her favourite lesson was the one where the teacher sat them down and taught them and that was how she learnt the most. To go back to dogs - do you think a dog prefers to be pulling on the lead and being uncomfortable and having the owner changing direction and getting frustrated or does it prefer a couple of checks on the lead that last a fraction of a second and a load of praise (or a treat if you prefer) and from then on comfortable relaxed walks on a loose lead. The problem is too many people get their timing totally wrong but done correctly it is, to me, by far the kinder and quicker and longer lasting way of training a dog to walk on the lead. I know @O20 will say that she can get the same result without correction and of course she can. A good trainer can produce a good dog with any method that suits both them and the dog. Of my two current dogs one has never had even the slightest check and she has never pulled on the lead. I was taught a method of training that is kind and produces results and over the years I have probably changed it a fair bit to suit but basically if it isnt broke then leave it alone.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> When I started training dogs and their people decades ago, the 'Choke/Check chain was the preferred training tool, because we didn't know any better. If anybody needs to know the procedures for teaching any particular exercise I can probably outline it.
> 
> The methodology is; if the dog does something you don't want, you hurt him, or if he's not quick enough to do something you want you hurt him. You use the check collar for this, giving it a hard enough yank that the dog never wants that experience again, so watches very carefully to avoid a repetition.
> 
> ...


You were obviously taught different to me. I think everyone I knew involved in dog training expected to have a relationship with their dog and every working dog has to have a relationship with their owner/trainer. The dog has to enjoy being trained, it has to be fun but it also has to be clear what you want immediately not expect it to take months. I have NEVER thought that a dog cannot learn except by being punished, that would be totally mad and show a total lack of empathy for any animal. Mind you horses, I was definitely taught that you stayed on top of them and you punished them and corrected them harshly. As I got older I realised they were better treated the same way as the dogs and I ended up with much more relaxed and happy horses. But the new natural horsemanship methods which are supposed to be so kind can be really horrible. The horses are barely allowed to breathe without permission and a lot of them are totally shut down with blank eyes. Yet the people that use those methods claim they are being much more natural than traditional methods.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2019)

@Dave D I'm with you and it's frustrating as hell. Pick n mix the good advice and follow your gut


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Linda Weasel said:


> The methodology is; if the dog does something you don't want, you hurt him, or if he's not quick enough to do something you want you hurt him. You use the check collar for this, giving it a hard enough yank that the dog never wants that experience again, so watches very carefully to avoid a repetition.


I've told this story before, apologies to those who have had to read it too many times 
Late 80's early 90's I took our rescue mix to a trainer. The dog was super smart and I figured he could do obedience. 
Trainer was traditional Monks of New Skeete, Koehler trainer. He had me put Mel to a heel, then walk a figure 8. Good, good, but needs to be tighter. So every time Mel turned wide on the figure 8 I was to check him and then tell him good boy when he corrected himself and got closer to my leg. 
First check Mel gave me a surprised look, but recovered, and we kept on. 
Second check Mel gave me a very clear WTF look.
Third check Mel stopped, cocked his leg, and peed down my calf. I was wearing jeans and I clearly remember the delineated line of pee from my knee to my ankle. 
The trainer suggested we take up tracking. There's no corrections in tracking. Mel was actually excellent at it and had we not moved, we would have continued on to search and rescue work.

Thank goodness for dogs like Mel, because he inspired me to look in to dog training further, and that's how I eventually discovered operant conditioning, clicker training, Karen Pryor etc.



Blitz said:


> I hate not being shown clearly what is wanted and the 'modern' way of teaching where you have to work it out for yourself. I get frustrated and upset if I cannot get it right but if I am shown clearly and instantly I am happy and I am sure most dogs are the same. When my daughter was at school, admittedly 20 years ago, her favourite lesson was the one where the teacher sat them down and taught them and that was how she learnt the most.


This is a real thing. A lot of dogs who have been punished for not getting things right will become very worried if you try to free shape for example. It is such a common phenomenon that there is a term for it - 'crossover dogs' and ways of overcoming the dog's worry about getting things wrong. 
The modern way is not about leaving the dog to figure things out on their own, there are very clear 'criteria' and the dogs do happily learn the criteria. 
To use a teacher/student example. Let's say I'm teaching a child to pronounce a word. If you use the "ask, show, insist" method, that would be, I say the word, ask child to repeat, child gets it wrong, I cuff child upside the head. If she's a particularly sensitive child maybe all I need to do is an angry look. When the child says it correctly, I praise. 
Using a more 'modern' method like shaping, I might start by breaking the word down in to syllables. Teach each individual syllable until the child is comfortable with those. I might have to back up and maybe teach the child where to put her tongue, or to touch her teeth to her lips, not her lips to her lips. But once the syllables are 'proofed' then I would have the child put the syllables together. She might need some reminders about positioning her mouth parts here too. All along the way she is encouraged and praised. No consequences for wrong answers other than "nope, that's not it, try again."

To me, there is so much more you can teach using positive reinforcement and it's just much more enjoyable for both dog and trainer.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> A lot of dogs who have been punished for not getting things right will become very worried if you try to free shape for example. It is such a common phenomenon that there is a term for it - 'crossover dogs' and ways of overcoming the dog's worry about getting things wrong.


I didn't know there was a term for that. Do you have some resources? That was Cadvan when I got him (and sometimes still now if I move too fast with proofing in different locations).


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> The very word 'choke' gives a wrong impression, a check chain or half check or even an ordinary collar or even check with a harness. I was taught that you asked the dog, then you showed it , then you insisted and the moment there is any sign of it happening you praise like mad.
> 
> To go back to dogs - do you think a dog prefers to be pulling on the lead and being uncomfortable and having the owner changing direction and getting frustrated or does it prefer a couple of checks on the lead that last a fraction of a second and a load of praise (or a treat if you prefer) and from then on comfortable relaxed walks on a loose lead. The problem is too many people get their timing totally wrong but done correctly it is, to me, by far the kinder and quicker and longer lasting way of training a dog to walk on the lead.


You still haven't described exactly what you do . Say your dog is pulling ahead , the collar is tight round her neck so how do you release the collar enough to be able to check her? Also , just a couple of checks? , for every dog? Im not so sure about that.



> The important thing is the timing of both the correction and praise.


Yes , timing is very important

Praise is a secondary reinforcer which is weaker than a primary one unless the dog is an anxious to please type which brings its own reward of the relief the dogs feels when it gets it right . 
You've said you ask the dog first and then get her to do it . The dog will catch on quicker if you get the dog to do what you want first and as she does it , you say the command and which then ever reward you want , praise or pat or treat. . That is exact . You say heel when the dog is by your side , quiet when you dog is quiet , not when its barking .
Ive seen people with their dogs pulling ahead , they shout heel and then drag the dog back , all they are doing is teaching their dog that heel means be ahead of them .



> I hate not being shown clearly what is wanted and the 'modern' way of teaching where you have to work it out for yourself. I get frustrated and upset if I cannot get it right but if I am shown clearly and instantly I am happy and I am sure most dogs are the same.


I assuming you are talking about the clicker ? Thats one way of using PR. It depends on how you use it. Ive used it and its an excellent tool . 
You said about the importance of timing the clicker is exact , it make the exact behaviour you want.



> A good trainer can produce a good dog with any method that suits both them and the dog. Of my two current dogs one has never had even the slightest check and she has never pulled on the lead. I was taught a method of training that is kind and produces results and over the years I have probably changed it a fair bit to suit but basically if it isnt broke then leave it alone.


The thing is most people arent good trainers. Im dont consider myself a good trainer , Im not on the ball enough , If Im going to make a mistake , id rather do it with my dog getting a treat rather than a check or a stim from a shock collar. 
PR is kind and it produces great results.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Mind you horses, I was definitely taught that you stayed on top of them and you punished them and corrected them harshly. As I got older I realised they were better treated the same way as the dogs and I ended up with much more relaxed and happy horses. But the new natural horsemanship methods which are supposed to be so kind can be really horrible. The horses are barely allowed to breathe without permission and a lot of them are totally shut down with blank eyes. Yet the people that use those methods claim they are being much more natural than traditional methods.


Agree with you about this , hate it . Its the equivalent of the Dog Whisper carp. You've mentioned modern methods several times. PR is as old as the hills , its part of how all mammals learn.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> When I started training dogs and their people decades ago, the 'Choke/Check chain was the preferred training tool, because we didn't know any better. If anybody needs to know the procedures for teaching any particular exercise I can probably outline it.
> 
> The methodology is; if the dog does something you don't want, you hurt him, or if he's not quick enough to do something you want you hurt him. You use the check collar for this, giving it a hard enough yank that the dog never wants that experience again, so watches very carefully to avoid a repetition.
> 
> ...


I dont get why people dont want to use treats or toys .
Ive heard people say I dont use treats and when I say , dont you give your dogs any biscuits or chews and they say yes , they just give them to them .

My dogs earn a lot of their treats , it gives them a work ethic , so to speak , and they are eager to earn them .I enjoy giving them treats ,


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Third check Mel stopped, cocked his leg, and peed down my calf. I was wearing jeans and I clearly remember the delineated line of pee from my knee to my ankle.
> 
> Thank goodness for dogs like Mel, because he inspired me to look in to dog training further, and that's how I eventually discovered operant conditioning, clicker training, Karen Pryor etc.


:Hilarious

I have a story about why I was put off choke chains , In the Sixties , my best friend had a collie x , we must have been about 11 and we thought it would be fun to go to dog training classes. he was a good dog and didnt need them, Anyway the trainer started dragging him around on the choke chain and he growled at him. The trainer literally strung him up , he lifted him up of the ground by the choke. 
We ran home crying . 
I do remember going to a PR training class about 6 years later so they've been around quite a few years .

Im not into obedience stuff I just want my dogs , like most people , to be reasonably behaved, to come back when called etc .


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> You still haven't described exactly what you do . Say your dog is pulling ahead , the collar is tight round her neck so how do you release the collar enough to be able to check her? Also , just a couple of checks? , for every dog? Im not so sure about that.
> The thing is most people arent good trainers. Im dont consider myself a good trainer , Im not on the ball enough , If Im going to make a mistake , id rather do it with my dog getting a treat rather than a check or a stim from a shock collar.
> PR is kind and it produces great results.


The point is the lead should never be tight. You have just enough slack so that if the dog is walking beside you it never feels the lead. If it goes to the side or behind or in front you check before the lead has gone tight. Basically you make sure the dog never does get it wrong. I took on an obedience collie who had failed as a sheepdog and failed to show the potential to go to the top in obedience. He had been kennelled all his life and although he was competing at novice level very well he had been allowed to pull on the lead when out for a walk. I walked him with my other two dogs so 3 in a row and within 2 weeks I had forgotten he had ever tried to pull.



kimthecat said:


> I dont get why people dont want to use treats or toys .
> Ive heard people say I dont use treats and when I say , dont you give your dogs any biscuits or chews and they say yes , they just give them to them .
> 
> My dogs earn a lot of their treats , it gives them a work ethic , so to speak , and they are eager to earn them .I enjoy giving them treats ,


There you are, you enjoy giving treats, not everyone does. I have run into a problem with Candy. She is showing signs of either deafness, blindness or dementia. I had her good eye seen by a specialist so that leaves deafness or dementia. To make things easier for us both I have bought a beep collar and I am conditioning her to it with treats. Problem is now she wont leave my side because (in 2 sessions) she has become treat obsessed. I dont want that. I do not think it is healthy, she needs to be a dog. This morning I put the collar on but decided only to beep it if needed . She did not do any of her normal wandering off and ignoring me - which is a recent thing by the way - but followed me around staring at my hand. I do not think giving the odd biscuit or chew relates to treat training - mine get half a gravy bone when I am going out and of course that has taught them I am going out so one goes to bed and the other stands where the biscuits are when I tell them they are not coming with me.

As far as I am concerned, so long as you have a happy, relaxed and well mannered dog it does not matter what method you use. Not every method works for every dog and not every method works for every handler. The problem is when nothing is working because the handler is doing it all wrong.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm not going to add anything to the debate as @O2.0 has covered things pretty well IMO
All I will say is that there are good and bad trainers across the board, there are also ineffective trainers in all groups...watching how a trainer is with their dog and how their dog behaves is all I need to know before taking note of their methods.

I'd much rather see someone with poor timing skills feed treats constantly than I would to see the same poorly timed person giving collar pops...if someone has the timing to give correct collar pops then they also have the correct timing for reward based methods IMHO

Peace out


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Wow, I just took Candy for her first proper walk in the beep collar. I think she must be really deaf. She set off across the rocks for some unknown reason and did not even look when I called her. I beeped the collar and she turned straight round and headed back with her tail wagging. I was a bit wary of using it on her as she is quite sensitive but I think the beep just gets her attention. Poor girl has not been getting naughty at all, I think it is a combination of deafness and dimness/dementia. As I said different methods for different dogs.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> I'm not going to add anything to the debate as @O2.0 has covered things pretty well IMO
> All I will say is that there are good and bad trainers across the board, there are also ineffective trainers in all groups...watching how a trainer is with their dog and how their dog behaves is all I need to know before taking note of their methods.
> 
> I'd much rather see someone with poor timing skills feed treats constantly than I would to see the same poorly timed person giving collar pops...if someone has the timing to give correct collar pops then they also have the correct timing for reward based methods IMHO
> ...


I do agree with you over the timing skills and I wonder if that is why, in both horses and dogs, methods are being used where timing or any empathy does not matter because if it is done wrong it does no harm to the animal. But all training should be reward based even if there has been a well timed correction. Does not have to be treats though.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> The point is the lead should never be tight. You have just enough slack so that if the dog is walking beside you it never feels the lead. If it goes to the side or behind or in front you check before the lead has gone tight. Basically you make sure the dog never does get it wrong. I took on an obedience collie who had failed as a sheepdog and failed to show the potential to go to the top in obedience. He had been kennelled all his life and although he was competing at novice level very well he had been allowed to pull on the lead when out for a walk. I walked him with my other two dogs so 3 in a row and within 2 weeks I had forgotten he had ever tried to pull.


In an ideal world the lead would never be tight , but then there's real life and a dog would be reasonably calm or semi trained in the first place to be able to keep that lead loose . Extremely difficult to do with dogs that pull like steam trains .
You would have to be pretty skilled and on the ball to be able to do that. I agree that there are skilled trainers, if it works for you and you are ok with it then that's your choice but the OP isnt a skilled trainer , most people who come here with problems aren't and have little experience.. 
They could do damage to their dogs , dogs owners dont always understand their dogs body language and think their dog is being obedient when in fact its suppressed .
One danger with a choke chain , is you cannot always predict what a dog will do and lunges and damages its windpipe. 
There can be drawbacks to any tool or training and of course the person training their dog must be made aware of them. , but I second StormyThai's post.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I do agree with you over the timing skills and I wonder if that is why, in both horses and dogs, methods are being used where timing or any empathy does not matter because if it is done wrong it does no harm to the animal. But all training should be reward based even if there has been a well timed correction. Does not have to be treats though.


It has been said in this thread it doesn't have to be treats, ( I said it myself) but a treat (or toy) is generally a powerful reinforcer ,



Blitz said:


> The people that seem to shove treats at dogs non stop are, in my experience, people who think they know a lot about dogs.


It depends on the situation , Ive treat heavily when counter conditioning .



Blitz said:


> I cannot stand seeing people with their dog watching the treat bag and having treats freely dispensed at intervals. I have watched videos of dogs being given treats when they recall. Oh yes, they come back fast enough but 9 times out of 10 they seem to just grab the treat and run off again. .


We all have our personal dislikes . I dont see whats wrong with this . Maybe they just want their dog to check in and to randomly reinforce recall. I do this. . I say "off you go" if I dont want them hanging about or "this way" if I want them to follow me .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Does not have to be treats though.


I didn't say that it did 
Personally I use food (which can range from normal kibble, homemade or bought treats, raw food or cooked food) toys, play, praise or environmental depending on the dog, the handler and the behaviour that we are teaching.

I've never had an issue about picking up a ball or my treat pouch when going out for a walk...that way if my dog does something great (like recalling from a chase) I can reward it, and because recalling from a chase has a high chance of reward (chasing a deer is far more salient than praise for Thai) I am more than willing to put money on him recalling with or without a ball on me.

I'm really pleased that the beep collar is working for Candy, vibration and beep collars are great tools for deaf dogs when conditioned properly


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Maybe they just want their dog to check in and to randomly reinforce recall. I do this. . I say "off you go" if I dont want them hanging about or "this way" if I want them to follow me .


You obviously trained recall well..having a release command. If I offer advise about recall I often suggest keep the dog with you for 60 seconds, which seems forever, hold harness/collar offer treat/praise whatever works for you and practice several times with 'check ins' or you do get a flighty dog who runs in for a treat and bogs off. Totally no point at all. However it's been said, it all depends on the handler. Recall to me is to come back and stay with me, because I may need my dog to be close for a reason. The whole point of training a recall in the first place. I personally am not playing see how fast I can get a lead on my dog for safety, especially as I walk multidogs. Yep you can't help some people who don't get it, but this is why a training area exists. To explain the what seems obvious to some, isn't to others.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> In an ideal world the lead would never be tight , but then there's real life and a dog would be reasonably calm or semi trained in the first place to be able to keep that lead loose . Extremely difficult to do with dogs that pull like steam trains .
> You would have to be pretty skilled and on the ball to be able to do that. I agree that there are skilled trainers, if it works for you and you are ok with it then that's your choice but the OP isnt a skilled trainer , most people who come here with problems aren't and have little experience..
> They could do damage to their dogs , dogs owners dont always understand their dogs body language and think their dog is being obedient when in fact its suppressed .
> One danger with a choke chain , is you cannot always predict what a dog will do and lunges and damages its windpipe.
> There can be drawbacks to any tool or training and of course the person training their dog must be made aware of them. , but I second StormyThai's post.


I would never let a dog pull, the lead is always slack apart from the fraction of a second of correction. As far as the choke chain damaging the dog, actually if a dog lunges with an ordinary collar it is more likely to damage itself A check collar puts equal pressure all the way round the neck (not that I have used one for years as would either use a half check or a flat collar.)


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2019)

Blitz said:


> I would never let a dog pull, the lead is always slack apart from the fraction of a second of correction. As far as the choke chain damaging the dog, actually if a dog lunges with an ordinary collar it is more likely to damage itself A check collar puts equal pressure all the way round the neck (not that I have used one for years as would either use a half check or a flat collar.)


When Finn was driving me nuts with his pulling, our vet implored us to consider a check chain as it'd be less damaging then a flat collar. Like you said about the lunging, when Finn does lunge it's with such force he will pivot.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

AsahiGo said:


> When Finn was driving me nuts with his pulling, our vet implored us to consider a check chain as it'd be less damaging then a flat collar. Like you said about the lunging, when Finn does lunge it's with such force he will pivot.


Can I ask though did your vet show you how to use a choke chain properly?

I worked in a pet shop and the only decent thing the owner did was explain the p and q or a choke chain to use it properly before selling or she wouldn't sell one.

If it's not put on in the first place properly, many are not... It won't be any better than a flat collar.

Not all half check are made well either, so they should also be checked before you buy.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

Hi folks, sorry if it seems I abandoned thread, I do this silly activity called 'work' on shifts. Firstly I must thank everyone who offered opinion/advice, everything posted appears to me to be genuine and more importantly in the dogs interest.
I'd like to therefore explain my situation.
I have recently taken possession of an 8 month old German Shepherd who was due for a 'long sleep' due to behavioural issues resulting from neglect by previous owners. You know the story, cute puppy, fits in palm of hand etc..... Then all of a sudden he grows!!!! From 4 months he was kept outside in a kennel in a tiny run within a large garden, no interaction with anything, dogs, people or traffic. The only contact was a water bowl and food bowl left at the end of his run.
My personal opinion is there is no way on earth a perfectly healthy animal should be destroyed and took him in. I will take time to also mention this history was given to me by the owners who fully admit their mistakes. I have no interest in blaming anyone, its the future I wish to focus on. No matter what, I cannot change the past, but can at the very least influence the future.
Unfortunately this 'hole' turns out to be somewhat deeper than I imagined and I quickly realised I needed help, hence the researching I did resulting in all my confusion. I am determined to turn this dogs life around, failure is not an option. Therefore since the inital post we are booked in early next week with a dog behavioural guy (fully insured etc. Did my homework there!).

Thought you guys/girls who responded deserved the full story. Again I can only offer my thanks.
Dave.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2019)

Dave D said:


> Hi folks, sorry if it seems I abandoned thread, I do this silly activity called 'work' on shifts. Firstly I must thank everyone who offered opinion/advice, everything posted appears to me to be genuine and more importantly in the dogs interest.
> I'd like to therefore explain my situation.
> I have recently taken possession of an 8 month old German Shepherd who was due for a 'long sleep' due to behavioural issues resulting from neglect by previous owners. You know the story, cute puppy, fits in palm of hand etc..... Then all of a sudden he grows!!!! From 4 months he was kept outside in a kennel in a tiny run within a large garden, no interaction with anything, dogs, people or traffic. The only contact was a water bowl and food bowl left at the end of his run.
> My personal opinion is there is no way on earth a perfectly healthy animal should be destroyed and took him in. I will take time to also mention this history was given to me by the owners who fully admit their mistakes. I have no interest in blaming anyone, its the future I wish to focus on. No matter what, I cannot change the past, but can at the very least influence the future.
> ...


Ha, what you said reminded me of myself with Mine.



lullabydream said:


> Can I ask though did your vet show you how to use a choke chain properly?
> 
> I worked in a pet shop and the only decent thing the owner did was explain the p and q or a choke chain to use it properly before selling or she wouldn't sell one.
> 
> ...


She absolutely did. She brought one out, demonstrated (on herself) what would happen if it was on wrong way - jamming etc. How it should sit, and how to do a correction;emphasis should be on the sound of the chain and not 'snapping' it. She said most accidents occur when idiots are yanking the chain. She also said a well placed tag will prevent the chain from 'choking'.
Dh knew all this as it's what he used to walk his boxer. Please, before I get flamed! When he walked his boxer back in the late 90s, he was ten years old and it was the only method his family had used (and dh was the only person that'd walk the dog).


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

AsahiGo said:


> When Finn was driving me nuts with his pulling, our vet implored us to consider a check chain as it'd be less damaging then a flat collar. Like you said about the lunging, when Finn does lunge it's with such force he will pivot.


The least damaging tool to the trachea etc is a harness.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2019)

We use a Dogmatic headcollar thing.

Ideally, Finn and I would be able to have a conversation as to why he cant fight cars/run off/follow someone else home and we wouldn't have to use anything


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dave D said:


> Hi folks, sorry if it seems I abandoned thread, I do this silly activity called 'work' on shifts. Firstly I must thank everyone who offered opinion/advice, everything posted appears to me to be genuine and more importantly in the dogs interest.
> I'd like to therefore explain my situation.
> I have recently taken possession of an 8 month old German Shepherd who was due for a 'long sleep' due to behavioural issues resulting from neglect by previous owners. You know the story, cute puppy, fits in palm of hand etc..... Then all of a sudden he grows!!!! From 4 months he was kept outside in a kennel in a tiny run within a large garden, no interaction with anything, dogs, people or traffic. The only contact was a water bowl and food bowl left at the end of his run.
> My personal opinion is there is no way on earth a perfectly healthy animal should be destroyed and took him in. I will take time to also mention this history was given to me by the owners who fully admit their mistakes. I have no interest in blaming anyone, its the future I wish to focus on. No matter what, I cannot change the past, but can at the very least influence the future.
> ...


Well done to you.
good luck . 
Thats good you are getting help , Is the trainer qualified ? If your dog has severe problems its best to have a clinical animal behaviourist.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/pets/general/findabehaviourist

Also , check out websites about dog body language . Its how they communicate their emotions to us eg stressed scared relaxed etc . its a great help when dealing with a dog with ;problems.
eg yawning can be a sign of anxiety.

https://www.vets4pets.com/pet-health-advice/dog-advice/dog-body-language/


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

AsahiGo said:


> We use a Dogmatic headcollar thing.
> 
> Ideally, Finn and I would be able to have a conversation as to why he cant fight cars/run off/follow someone else home and we wouldn't have to use anything


 i use a harness on libby chi but pip doesn't like them so he has a flat collar.

I worked in kennels and for the RSPCA and animal transport for many years at le3ast thirty years and Ive handled all sorts of animals and handled and walked dogs hundreds and hundreds of dogs in that time . In my experience , if a dog wants to take off with and drag you along , depending on your weight and the size of the dog , it will. For us ordinary mortals, its difficult to always keep a loose lead. I wonder how many people can say they have never let a lead or choke collar get tight.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> i use a harness on libby chi but pip doesn't like them so he has a flat collar.
> 
> I worked in kennels and for the RSPCA and animal transport for many years at le3ast thirty years and Ive handled all sorts of animals and handled and walked dogs hundreds and hundreds of dogs in that time . In my experience , if a dog wants to take off with and drag you along , depending on your weight and the size of the dog , it will. For us ordinary mortals, its difficult to always keep a loose lead. I wonder how many people can say they have never let a lead or choke collar get tight.


That's Finn. If I got him a check or choke or whatever, he would still pull as he is one of the most obstinate and strong-willed dogs I have ever met. And he has really strong neck muscles. He'd just go at it, tongue blue, sounding like a 60 a day smoker. Fortunately I'm tall, so I can use my height as a counterbalance against him and that takes a couple of uncertain steps before I get my footing


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

AsahiGo said:


> We use a Dogmatic headcollar thing.
> 
> Ideally, Finn and I would be able to have a conversation as to why he cant fight cars/run off/follow someone else home and we wouldn't have to use anything


With head collars you have to be careful his head doesnt get pulled round. I have used a head collar where the lead is attached at the back of the neck instead of underneath the muzzle for a small dog . Ive forgotten what the brand is but it worked well. It was for a dog belonging an old lady , it meant she could walk him safely.

Eta . that was a few years ago. Ive just realised Im an old lady now which is why I have small dogs .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dave D said:


> Hi folks, sorry if it seems I abandoned thread, I do this silly activity called 'work' on shifts. Firstly I must thank everyone who offered opinion/advice, everything posted appears to me to be genuine and more importantly in the dogs interest.
> I'd like to therefore explain my situation.
> I have recently taken possession of an 8 month old German Shepherd who was due for a 'long sleep' due to behavioural issues resulting from neglect by previous owners. You know the story, cute puppy, fits in palm of hand etc..... Then all of a sudden he grows!!!! From 4 months he was kept outside in a kennel in a tiny run within a large garden, no interaction with anything, dogs, people or traffic. The only contact was a water bowl and food bowl left at the end of his run.
> My personal opinion is there is no way on earth a perfectly healthy animal should be destroyed and took him in. I will take time to also mention this history was given to me by the owners who fully admit their mistakes. I have no interest in blaming anyone, its the future I wish to focus on. No matter what, I cannot change the past, but can at the very least influence the future.
> ...


Appreciate the reply/explanation.

Good for you for taking on this dog. Adolescence is about the time when a lot of the larger working type dogs end up given up because they become too much to handle. We ended up with our current "problem" dog around that age.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, I'm a little concerned about the content of your posts and that the behaviorist you have booked might not be the best option for your dog. Fully insured doesn't tell us anything about the knowledge he has or the methods he uses. GSDs are not one of the more forgiving breeds when it comes to making mistakes handling them.

If you can share your general location, we have folks on here, very knowledgeable in the breed, who can point you to some good professionals in your area. 
@Cleo38 
@Sairy 
@Twiggy


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Hi @Dave D

I've just been reading your posts. Where are you going on your training course? I am a GSD lover here and happy to help in any way I can.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Torin. said:


> I didn't know there was a term for that. Do you have some resources? That was Cadvan when I got him (and sometimes still now if I move too fast with proofing in different locations).


Sorry @Torin. I must have missed this.

Sadly, no, I can't think of any resources off the top of my head. I know Karen Pryor has talked about crossover dogs, and I want to say they're also mentioned in Jane Killion's book "When Pigs Fly" but I'm not 100% sure it's that one or maybe in the original "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt.

But essentially you just have to build their confidence, make things really easy. Lots of free shaping where you reward any behavior offered at all. That's where the games with a box comes from, to build the dog's confidence that it's okay to *do* things. 
I have a video somewhere of free-shaping Lunar, he wasn't technically a crossover dog as he had not been trained at all that I could tell, mainly neglected and then gone feral, but it's interesting to see him figuring out the clicker vs. Breez who I had raised as a puppy.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

With ref to kimthekat. Yes the gentleman 'trainer' I lazily referred to is indeed a dog behaviourist and is both registered at company house, carries £1million+ insurance and is author of a book. For those of an inquisitive nature I will not disclose his name for fear of contradicting myself concerning advertising. The book is titled along the lines of 'Dog Training Without Treats'. It wouldn't take Hercule Poirot to establish his identity if you searched Amazon.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

kimthecat. Apologies for the mistaken k.
Sorry.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dave D said:


> With ref to kimthekat. Yes the gentleman 'trainer' I lazily referred to is indeed a dog behaviourist and is both registered at company house, carries £1million+ insurance and is author of a book. For those of an inquisitive nature I will not disclose his name for fear of contradicting myself concerning advertising. The book is titled along the lines of 'Dog Training Without Treats'. It wouldn't take Hercule Poirot to establish his identity if you searched Amazon.


Oh dear, you've just confirmed my worries.

Is there a reason why you chose this trainer? What is it about them that appeals to you?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

If this is the guy that I think it is then I would like to point out that the gent is not a qualified behaviourist...personally wouldn't let him near one of my dogs


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@Torin. I started looking for videos of Lunar, and came across this one. Rather nostalgic, it was 8 years ago! Said dog is now very gray in the muzzle along with said human, though interestingly I didn't realize I had lost that much weight (or that I had been that big ).

Anyway, it's very relevant to the thread, Bates training with food. Definitely not the scenario @Blitz was talking about with dog only interested in the treats. 
He's a good goober dog....


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

@Dave D have you had a session with the trainer already? Just looking on his reviews and noticed one from a couple of days ago which sounds like it could have been written by you. I'd be interested to know what sorts of methods the trainer has suggested for your dog.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dave D said:


> With ref to kimthekat. Yes the gentleman 'trainer' I lazily referred to is indeed a dog behaviourist and is both registered at company house, carries £1million+ insurance and is author of a book. For those of an inquisitive nature I will not disclose his name for fear of contradicting myself concerning advertising. The book is titled along the lines of 'Dog Training Without Treats'. It wouldn't take Hercule Poirot to establish his identity if you searched Amazon.


Oh dear .
he sounds like Cesar Milans mini me

About the treat thing , it's not a gimmick . It has a purpose and that is to reinforce a behaviour ,
it is also used in to change a dogs emotion ,

https://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/Desensitizing_and_counter-conditioning.html


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

This is a good link that explains about positive reinforcement , positive punishment etc.
It explains about operant conditioning and classical conditioning . This is how all mammals learn , including humans .

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Dave D said:


> Dog Training Without Treats


If you work (or used to) you likely did it because you got paid. Reward is not a bad thing! In fact, as you got better at your job, it's likely you expected to progress up the salary scale. So why expect different from your dog?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I find it a bit odd (and it sounds a little misinformed) when people describe reward-based training as "treat training". Rewards can involve treats but reward-based training can encompass a whole variety of rewards, including treats, toys, play, praise, access to interesting sniffs, access to freedom, access to play with other dogs, chasing, belly rubs etc. Done well it should not be bribery as some seem to view it as. People have issues when their dog will only do something if they are holding a treat in their hand, but this is because they have inadvertently taught the dog that no treat in hand means that there will be no reward available. It is actually fairly easily rectified though (in my experience) and much easier to rectify than fear that may come from being punished for not doing as asked.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

JoanneF said:


> If you work (or used to) you likely did it because you got paid. Reward is not a bad thing! In fact, as you got better at your job, it's likely you expected to progress up the salary scale. So why expect different from your dog?


But not using treats doesn't mean you're not rewarding a dog.

Georgina and Gwylim were trained by a retired police dog trainer and handler who didn't use food as a reward but instead used praise and touch which IMO they, particularly Georgina, responded to better.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> @Torin. I started looking for videos of Lunar, and came across this one. Rather nostalgic, it was 8 years ago! Said dog is now very gray in the muzzle along with said human, though interestingly I didn't realize I had lost that much weight (or that I had been that big ).
> 
> Anyway, it's very relevant to the thread, Bates training with food. Definitely not the scenario @Blitz was talking about with dog only interested in the treats.
> He's a good goober dog....


That is because you are good at training dogs and you choose treats as a training aid. They are not the be all and end all though, you use body language and voice appropriately too no doubt.



Magyarmum said:


> But not using treats doesn't mean you're not rewarding a dog.
> 
> Georgina and Gwylim were trained by a retired police dog trainer and handler who didn't use food as a reward but instead used praise and touch which IMO they, particularly Georgina, responded to better.


Although a few people have been saying they do not mean just treats there does seem to be a feeling that if you use correction and praise then the dog will be beaten into the ground and be so terrified it cannot misbehave. I only beat my dogs twice a day now and I bet you have managed to reduce it to that too haven't you @Magyarmum


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Magyarmum said:


> But not using treats doesn't mean you're not rewarding a dog.
> 
> Georgina and Gwylim were trained by a retired police dog trainer and handler who didn't use food as a reward but instead used praise and touch which IMO they, particularly Georgina, responded to better.


Absolutely. I deliberately used the word reward rather than treat.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Sairy said:


> I find it a bit odd (and it sounds a little misinformed) when people describe reward-based training as "treat training". Rewards can involve treats but reward-based training can encompass a whole variety of rewards, including treats, toys, play, praise, access to interesting sniffs, access to freedom, access to play with other dogs, chasing, belly rubs etc. Done well it should not be bribery as some seem to view it as. People have issues when their dog will only do something if they are holding a treat in their hand, but this is because they have inadvertently taught the dog that no treat in hand means that there will be no reward available. It is actually fairly easily rectified though (in my experience) and much easier to rectify than fear that may come from being punished for not doing as asked.


For my dogs, the reward is often just letting them do it again. And they're happy with that.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2019)

Sorry if you've already said this (loads of posts), but how long have you had your pooch for @Dave D?
I ask because when I first got Finn (at 10 months, also a bit of a delinquent teen), some of his 'behaviour' completely threw me and some of my first thoughts were "OMG I NEED A BEHAVIOURIST/WHAT THE HELL HAVE I BROUGHT INTO MY HOME!" I was completely overwhelmed, not owned a dog as an adult and not been around one properly in over ten years.
I rang up a behaviourist, and I am 99% certain from the the conversation I had with him on the phone, that he would've (if given the opportunity) completely played on my then state of mind and ripped me off.

The point I'm trying to make, in a meandering sort of way, that the best thing I never did was book Finn in with that behaviourist, or any of the others actually. Letting him settle in first, get his paws under the table, and let my family and I get to know him has helped more than what IMO, any behaviourist could've done at the time. Finn is a different dog now compared to what he was then; he's still an arsehole sometimes, but he is the most gentle, intelligent, mischievous, goodboi, I've known. He still has issues but we're getting there. Time and patience I guess.

Also want to add - I'm in no way slating behaviourists/trainers. I'm just saying I'm really, really glad I let him settle first. Most of his problems dispersed within three weeks and I would've been making a mountain out of a molehill.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I don't have any issue with corrections as long as they are done in the right way and do not involve fear, pain or intimidation. Unfortunately, watching various videos of these "anti treat" trainers some of the dogs appear quite shut down and some of the trainers throw their weight around in a bid to get the dog to do what they want it to, which does not make for a good relationship between dog and handler.

Of course you can train a dog well without using treats. It's about finding what the individual dog finds rewarding. Some dogs prefer praise and play to treats, whilst others could not care less about these but will happily work for a nice piece of sausage.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Although a few people have been saying they do not mean just treats there does seem to be a feeling that if you use correction and praise then the dog will be beaten into the ground and be so terrified it cannot misbehave. I only beat my dogs twice a day now and I bet you have managed to reduce it to that too haven't you @Magyarmum


Really ? I got the impression it's about the choice of tool eg choke chain rather than using "corrections" AFAIK you don't use a full choke chain.

It's not possible to totally be PR even clicker training isnt .

Ive been discussing tools and training and PR, NP etc since I've been on- line (20 years ago) on many forums and groups , with people , trainers , ordinary dog owners , from abroad too the US . Lots of discussions , arguments , thousands of of posts but this is how I have learnt . You learn from disagreeing rather than always agreeing .

One thing I have noticed is that those who do use corrections and tools as their main training seem to get upset when the use of those tools etc is criticised .
It seems they are happy to "correct" their dogs , yet don't like being "corrected" themselves , You'd thing they show some empathy towards their dogs knowing how they feel about it themselves .


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> Really ? I got the impression it's about the choice of tool eg choke chain rather than using "corrections" AFAIK you don't use a full choke chain.
> 
> It's not possible to totally be PR even clicker training isnt .
> 
> ...


Maybe there's guilt around it; check chains tend to be frowned upon, and some people probably use them as a last resort and feel really, really bad about it, so I imagine they get defensive.
There's a guy around my neck of the woods that uses a check on his Collie. I asked him about it (just after I spoke to the vet) and he immediately jumped in with his reasons as to why, very defensive, looked a bit nervous. Poor man I was only being nosey


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sairy said:


> I don't have any issue with corrections as long as they are done in the right way and do not involve fear, pain or intimidation. Unfortunately, watching various videos of these "anti treat" trainers some of the dogs appear quite shut down and some of the trainers throw their weight around in a bid to get the dog to do what they want it to, which does not make for a good relationship between dog and handler.
> 
> Of course you can train a dog well without using treats. It's about finding what the individual dog finds rewarding. Some dogs prefer praise and play to treats, whilst others could not care less about these but will happily work for a nice piece of sausage.


Spot on Sairy ! having had and have terriers , i know that sausage works very well with recall in full chase. 
I conditioned my dogs to return to a whistle , 2 peeps , and reward with sausage and they hear it and come back quickly , 
But its a drag carrying a whistle and putting in my mouth quick enough , so now I tend to just shout Sausages !!

One problem with carrying tasty rewards is that not only do your dogs come back but half the dogs in the park come back as well :Hilarious

Perhaps we should not say treats and say reinforcers .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

AsahiGo said:


> Maybe there's guilt around it; check chains tend to be frowned upon, and some people probably use them as a last resort and feel really, really bad about it, so I imagine they get defensive.
> There's a guy around my neck of the woods that uses a check on his Collie. I asked him about it (just after I spoke to the vet) and he immediately jumped in with his reasons as to why, very defensive, looked a bit nervous. Poor man I was only being nosey


Yes I expect so . I have met people using chokes in real life . if it comes up in the discussion , i would suggest another tool. A woman had a GSD , she was using a full choke and and I suggested a headcollar and the dog walked perfectly on it.

BTW Anyone trying their dog.' collar on their neck and pulling it to see if it hurts , believe me it does !
Didnt get round to trying the choke chain . 

ETA I do get hot under the collar in real life about Cesar Millan. If any one at the park brings up the subject , OH is behind me waving his arms mouthing NOOOOOOO .
I get in full rant mode and I swear steam comes out of my ears. :Jawdrop


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Just picking back up on the original post



Dave D said:


> As writing this I realise in fact I am questioning thr treat and reward system of training? A bad dog recieves rewards for 'normal' behaviour? A good dog recieves nothing for doing the same? What if my dog somehow slips his lead when out? If I've not got 'treats' on me do I tell him to.hang on while I run down the shop and back? Can you see the obvious? He won't wait while I'm gone because there's nothing in it for him.


OK so to answer the first part, I think labelling dogs as good dogs and bad dogs confuses the issue a little, but I am assuming you mean that, for instance, a dog who always walks nicely on a lead or sits when asked to gets no reward for doing so, but a dog who pulls on the lead gets rewarded for the tiniest amount of walking on a loose lead. Is this what you are getting at?

Assuming this is what you mean, I can tell you that a good trainer will continue to reward a "good" dog throughout its life. When you are teaching a new behaviour you tend to reward the dog regularly to reinforce that behaviour. So when teaching a dog to sit you would probably reward with something of high value every time the dog does as asked. Once the command is solid and proofed in different scenarios then you would reward more intermittently and some of the rewards may be of low value (e.g. praise is of lower value to my dog than a tasty treat or toy). My dog has known the sit command since before she came to me at 8 weeks, but she still gets intermittently rewarded for it and because of this she will still perform the command when asked as there may be a reward of some kind. I can't expect her to sit just because I said so and I certainly don't want her to sit because she fears that if she doesn't then she faces something unpleasant happening. The same goes for walking on a loose lead - initially the dog may be rewarded for walking nicely every few steps (this might be with treats, praise or simply the ability to keep walking if that is the most rewarding thing). As the dog comes to understand what is expected of walking on lead then it will be expected to walk further before being rewarded and again rewards may vary in value. I still reward my dog for walking nicely on lead and will continue to do so throughout her life.

As to the second part, if your dog slips its lead whilst you are out then your priority is to get your dog back safely and as quickly as possible. If you are unlucky then this could happen before you have been able to teach a good recall and in that scenario you do what you need to do to get your dog back at that moment. If that means pulling out a toy, treats, running in the opposite direction, pretending to have the most interesting object that ever existed in your hand, going and getting your dog or seeking the assistance of someone else nearby then that is what you do. However, if you have taught a good recall then you do not need to have any treats or reward of any kind on you for your dog to come back when called. Your dog will come back in this situation because it has previously learnt that "Fido come" means "come to me straight away and you will be rewarded". I personally take out a handful of treats and a toy on every walk I go on so that I can reward good behaviour. I don't get them out as bribery and my dog does not see them until she has done something good so if I did fail to take them on a walk then she would still perform the behaviours as asked because history has taught her that it is worth it. With recall I tend to put a lot of emphasis on high-value rewards (usually treats, play or a ball) because I consider it to be one of the most important commands and it is therefore worth rewarding quite heavily, although I do throw in lower value rewards such as praise and a cheeky bum smack from time to time.

I hope this clarifies things a little, but please let me know if anything is unclear.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> That is because you are good at training dogs and you choose treats as a training aid.


When you say things like this, it makes it sound like someone who is not good at training dogs is better off not using treats. 
If someone is going to screw up training, I'd rather it be with treats and praise than with collar pops....


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

I don't want to take this thread too far off on a tangent now that there's a question regarding the welfare of a real life dog rather than purely theoretical.... but thank you @O2.0 I got some info on it from local behaviourists when Cad was new (it's why 99% of what I ask him to do is free shaped, if you ever noticed me picking a different angle from everyone else other than @StormyThai in the training threads earlier in the year), but it just seemed to be implied that it was a 'dog new to +R' thing rather than something to bear in mind for life! Sometimes I have to do a lot of thinking outside the box for criteria increases that are super minuscule for proofing.



kimthecat said:


> Perhaps we should not say treats and say reinforcers .


A lot of people I interact with from a training pov say "food rewards" for edibles (which then also encompasses kibble and so on), and "treats" as an umbrella term in the dictionary definition way of something that gives pleasure. Keeps it accessible, because another reason people turn their noses up at it is there being too much jargon. That's how I tend to read things myself too


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Blitz said:


> That is because you are good at training dogs and you choose treats as a training aid. They are not the be all and end all though, you use body language and voice appropriately too no doubt.
> 
> Although a few people have been saying they do not mean just treats there does seem to be a feeling that if you use correction and praise then the dog will be beaten into the ground and be so terrified it cannot misbehave. I only beat my dogs twice a day now and I bet you have managed to reduce it to that too haven't you @Magyarmum


I've given up beating mine in favour of threatening to send them to the local dog shelter.

I have to admit though I'm quite strict with my dogs and expect them to do what I tell them to do. Having said that I'd never dream of reprimanding them physically but I will use my voice and body language to register my displeasure. Grisha, for example was told off this morning for "chewing" my hand whilst I was trying to get dressed! A short sharp "Aghagh" was enough to make him stop! Not that it happens very often, and I can say quite definitely neither of my little monkeys is in the least bit intimidated by their human!

I'm not great at training but having had dogs all my life, a lot of what I do is instinctive, I spend a lot of time studying their habits and watching their body language and reactions in any given situation. and I'm often able to anticipate what they're likely to do before it happens which allows me to take avoiding action or distract them if necessary.. What I always try to work towards is having dogs who think I'm the best thing that ever happened to them and who understand me as well as I understand them. (At least that's the theory)

I'm afraid when I first had him Grisha was a total culture shock. For the first month he was almost uncontrollable and I was tempted to give him back, but couldn't because underneath all the wildness he was such a lovable little dog. Four months on, plus training every week and I now have a young man who no longer wants to murder every human he sees on walks and copes well in busy places. At home he's still his larger than life self but nothing that can't be easily managed.

I've never used or even thought of using a choke collar on any of my dogs, despite until relatively recently always having owned large dogs Gwylim and Grisha wear collars and harnesses with a ring on both the front and back. It depends how on how "bouncy" they are or how much my leg is playing up, which ring I attach their lead to and sometimes I'll change it to another ring part way through the walk. For training their lead is always attached to their collar. As for treats I use them for initial training but try to phase them out in favour of rewarding them using mainly praise and touch. I'm lucky because both boys love a quick neck massage or cuddle and I find it easier to do than searching for a treat to give them!

But whatever! Whether I've trained my two the right or wrong way, they seem to have turned out quite well and are a delight to own!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> When you say things like this, it makes it sound like someone who is not good at training dogs is better off not using treats.
> If someone is going to screw up training, I'd rather it be with treats and praise than with collar pops....


No, this was on the subject of treat obsessed dogs who are only bothered about the treat and have no idea why they are being given it and are most definitely not handler focused. Same as the bloody ball launcher obsessed dogs!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> No, this was on the subject of treat obsessed dogs who are only bothered about the treat and have no idea why they are being given it and are most definitely not handler focused. Same as the bloody ball launcher obsessed dogs!


You mentioned in an earlier post about dogs only coming back from recall for a treat and then scooting off again . If the dog is a pet dog and not a working being worked by a handler, say , if the dog/s come back when called why does it matter so much . i would assume the owner is happy the dog came back and the dog is happy because it gets a treat and then gets to run around again.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> You mentioned in an earlier post about dogs only coming back from recall for a treat and then scooting off again . If the dog is a pet dog and not a working being worked by a handler, say , if the dog/s come back when called why does it matter so much . i would assume the owner is happy the dog came back and the dog is happy because it gets a treat and then gets to run around again.


Might even be using running around again as a non-food reward...

I do this with Cad. I don't expect any other fellow dog walker who isn't right next to me will hear the release cue.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Torin. said:


> Might even be using running around again as a non-food reward...
> 
> I do this with Cad. I don't expect any other fellow dog walker who isn't right next to me will hear the release cue.


Good point.
Im just glad that anyone can recall their dog and not let it run amok around the park causing havoc.
The worst people are those that finally manage to catch their dog and then shout at it or hit it.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> You mentioned in an earlier post about dogs only coming back from recall for a treat and then scooting off again . If the dog is a pet dog and not a working being worked by a handler, say , if the dog/s come back when called why does it matter so much . i would assume the owner is happy the dog came back and the dog is happy because it gets a treat and then gets to run around again.


As a pet dog owner when I recall my dogs, I expect them to stay with me until I tell them they can go off again otherwise why bother to recall them?

My two know when I say "run" they're free to go off and do whatever. If however I say "Let's go" I expect them to walk either by my side or slightly ahead of me,

The one thing I don't expect or want is for them to bog off just because they feel like it!


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Magyarmum said:


> As a pet dog owner when I recall my dogs, I expect them to stay with me until I tell them they can go off again otherwise why bother to recall them?
> 
> My two know when I say "run" they're free to go off and do whatever. If however I say "Let's go" I expect them to walk either by my side or slightly ahead of me,


Gosh - I think not only do we have the same expectations but we also use the same words 

I run a pretty tight ship - combination of training and leadership. Too many dogs in the house not to to be honest. I use positive training methods to train as they are fast and effective and help maintain a good relationship but every dog I have had has probably been trained in a slightly different way according to their background, personality and what gets them motivated. The basis of teaching is never one size fits all.

And I do think that sometimes there is a misconception that it is all about the treats (Thus the op's line "What if my dog somehow slips his lead when out? If I've not got 'treats' on me do I tell him to.hang on while I run down the shop and back?) Rewards reinforce, that's all. They teach. But they are only truly efficient if used correctly and if there is an understanding both of the motivation and the focus of the dog. Sometimes I do see dogs receiving treats and their little faces clearly say - cheers for that, no idea why i have been given a treat but thank you 

Having read through this thread as it has progressed I am not surprised new owners or those new to training find things confusing. It's a subject that can run and run ..........

J


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> As a pet dog owner when I recall my dogs, I expect them to stay with me until I tell them they can go off again otherwise why bother to recall them?
> 
> My two know when I say "run" they're free to go off and do whatever. If however I say "Let's go" I expect them to walk either by my side or slightly ahead of me,
> 
> The one thing I don't expect or want is for them to bog off just because they feel like it!


Well sure. Owners chose what they want to do with their dogs. I just dont see wht people should be criticised for doing it because others dont see the purpose of it..


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> . Sometimes I do see dogs receiving treats and their little faces clearly say - cheers for that, no idea why i have been given a treat but thank you


Rather like clicker training where the dog has to work out what it did to get another treat! Repeated enough they work it out for themselves.



> Having read through this thread as it has progressed I am not surprised new owners or those new to training find things confusing. It's a subject that can run and run ..........
> 
> J


Absolutely.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I used the beep collar effectively again today. I was not at all sure how if it would suit Candy and it was not a cheap one so relieved it works. We have an old lorry container which rabbits live under and in the morning unless I really concentrate and sometimes even then, Candy makes a bolt for it . Toffee stops when told but Candy totally ignores me then I have to walk round it and find her. She went this morning and I beeped her. She stopped dead , looked round at me and headed straight back. She does get a treat for this as I want her conditioned to the beep. I am not anti treat, though I do not find them a useful aid for most training, but I am against them being used indiscriminately with dogs that are still badly behaved and only focus on the treats.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I am not anti treat, though I do not find them a useful aid for most training, but I am against them being used indiscriminately with dogs that are still badly behaved and only focus on the treats.


yes indeed but if an owner lacks understanding of the principles of training them they're not likely to have much success using a different method.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

Sairy said:


> @Dave D have you had a session with the trainer already? Just looking on his reviews and noticed one from a couple of days ago which sounds like it could have been written by you. I'd be interested to know what sorts of methods the trainer has suggested for your dog.


Busted! Yes, hands up guilty as charged. We have indeed had a session and where I was trying to come across as being in a position prior to the session, as it was the session that blew my mind. You've read the review, within 3 mins a 'out of control' 8 month old GSD was under total control with only a lead correction or two. It was for this reason I questioned what I did in initial post. I have read already some disagree and imply methods are wrong and I just cannot see why? I do not have anything against 'treat' training, in fact I'm a supporter of it if it works for people. The problem I see is being told any other way is wrong and it is harmful. My opinion and it is an opinion that 'normal' behaviour isn't cause for reward. Aside from that if the dog is rewarded continously, how do you reward exceptional behavoiur? It raises more questions than answers. (Again this is personal opinion). Maybe I have mitigating (spellcheck?) circumstances where 'Dave' has more need for 'correction' following neglect, rather than the 'sit', 'stay', 'come' or 'fetch'. I'm quite willing to concede I'm looking at the issue from a near adult dog rather than an 8 week puppy?

May I just put minds at rest, there is no force nor physical punishment involved. Lead correction with a pull up and across body is as harsh as it gets and 5 mins in his basket for doing anything he's not supposed to.

Repeat as required.......

I encourage any constructive advice/criticism, but please don't just say whatever is wrong. Thats absolutely useless, not just to me, but to anyone. Please explain why? That way I can understand.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

Excellent detective work Sairy by the way.....


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Rather like clicker training where the dog has to work out what it did to get another treat! Repeated enough they work it out for themselves..


Trial and error learning is something different altogether. Trial and error learning is the basis for positive experience training. No, what i was referring to is the the time discrepancy between action and reward whereby the dog is either by now carrying our a completely different behaviour or completely unaware of anything except that their owner has a treat in their hand.



Dave D said:


> You've read the review, within 3 mins a 'out of control' 8 month old GSD was under total control with only a lead correction or two.


In my experience quick fixes aren't always sustainable as there is a lot more to teaching a dog how to walk (focus) on or off the lead than correcting a pull. I would rather see the whole dog worked on so there can be a continuity of learning.

I would however be interested to know for example, how your trainer teaches recall without having recourse to corrective tactics.

J


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dave D said:


> Busted! Yes, hands up guilty as charged. We have indeed had a session and where I was trying to come across as being in a position prior to the session, as it was the session that blew my mind. You've read the review, within 3 mins a 'out of control' 8 month old GSD was under total control with only a lead correction or two. It was for this reason I questioned what I did in initial post. I have read already some disagree and imply methods are wrong and I just cannot see why? I do not have anything against 'treat' training, in fact I'm a supporter of it if it works for people. The problem I see is being told any other way is wrong and it is harmful. My opinion and it is an opinion that 'normal' behaviour isn't cause for reward. Aside from that if the dog is rewarded continously, how do you reward exceptional behavoiur? It raises more questions than answers. (Again this is personal opinion). Maybe I have mitigating (spellcheck?) circumstances where 'Dave' has more need for 'correction' following neglect, rather than the 'sit', 'stay', 'come' or 'fetch'. I'm quite willing to concede I'm looking at the issue from a near adult dog rather than an 8 week puppy?
> 
> May I just put minds at rest, there is no force nor physical punishment involved. Lead correction with a pull up and across body is as harsh as it gets and 5 mins in his basket for doing anything he's not supposed to.
> 
> ...


What exactly is your pup doing in general that you dont want it to . When you mean out of control , is he generally not taking any notice of you. Is the neglect lack of training or was it more serious than that? . Stressed dogs will faff round and become hyper . One of the 4 F's of behaviour Fight , Flight, Freeze or faff around.

You might want to read some of the posts again and I really would read that book I recommended How Dogs Learn .
It explains all the questions you have asked . If you want to comment on training and make a choice of methods then it would be a great help to you. You need to learn dog body language so you can recognise your dogs stress signals . Did you know a yawn can be a sign of stress , a nose lick too.
A subdued dog can appear to be well trained but it can wear off.
The bits you learn here arent enough and really it takes up our time which could well be wasted.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> yes indeed but if an owner lacks understanding of the principles of training them they're not likely to have much success using a different method.


To be fair they will not have much success with any method but will not do any harm with treats, they will not be training their dog though if they are just stuffing it with treats for the sake of it which is something I see far too much of..


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

> ="Dave D, post: 1065542462, member: 1497910"t. The problem I see is being told any other way is wrong and it is harmful. My opinion and it is an opinion that 'normal' behaviour isn't cause for reward. Aside from that if the dog is rewarded continously, how do you reward exceptional behavoiur?


Yet you asked this in your first post. ( and received an answer. )

<"As writing this I realise in fact I am questioning the treat and reward system of training? A bad dog recieves rewards for 'normal' behaviour? A good dog recieves nothing for doing the same? ">

The dog isnt rewarded all the time , it is to start with while learning , then it tapers off . Please read about schedules of reinforcement. Its been mentioned to you before .

Its up to you if you want to randomly reinforce a behavior , dogs cant be well behaved all the tíme and sometimes slip up or revert back. This happens with any method you chose so bear that in mind .

If you want to reward exceptional behaviour you use an exceptionally high value treat , Already been said sausage are high value as well as liver treats . A low reward could be a piece of the dogs kibble . Another high reward would be a toy they love to be only used as a reward.Not all dogs are toy orientated.



> Maybe I have mitigating (spellcheck?) circumstances where 'Dave' has more need for 'correction' following neglect, rather than the 'sit', 'stay', 'come' or 'fetch'. I'm quite willing to concede I'm looking at the issue from a near adult dog rather than an 8 week puppy?
> But that is physical
> 
> May I just put minds at rest, there is no force nor physical punishment involved. Lead correction with a pull up and across body is as harsh as it gets and 5 mins in his basket for doing anything he's not supposed to.
> ...


But that is physical . ( the lead correction) Some dogs may be ok but some might not . GSDS can be very sensitive souls.
Time outs can be handy but bear in mind that your dog is not going to be contemplating his navel about being a bad boy in that time

If a dog has a habit of doing something it can take a little while to stop it doing it , same as humans.
Otherwise , Ive found that dogs can pick up things very quickly with reward methods ,
Using tools like a can of pennies can wear off very quickly.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> To be fair they will not have much success with any method but will not do any harm with treats, they will not be training their dog though if they are just stuffing it with treats for the sake of it which is something I see far too much of..


Yes I should had added "either " at the end of that sentence.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Dave D said:


> Busted! Yes, hands up guilty as charged. We have indeed had a session and where I was trying to come across as being in a position prior to the session, as it was the session that blew my mind. You've read the review, within 3 mins a 'out of control' 8 month old GSD was under total control with only a lead correction or two. It was for this reason I questioned what I did in initial post. I have read already some disagree and imply methods are wrong and I just cannot see why? I do not have anything against 'treat' training, in fact I'm a supporter of it if it works for people. The problem I see is being told any other way is wrong and it is harmful. My opinion and it is an opinion that 'normal' behaviour isn't cause for reward. Aside from that if the dog is rewarded continously, how do you reward exceptional behavoiur? It raises more questions than answers. (Again this is personal opinion). Maybe I have mitigating (spellcheck?) circumstances where 'Dave' has more need for 'correction' following neglect, rather than the 'sit', 'stay', 'come' or 'fetch'. I'm quite willing to concede I'm looking at the issue from a near adult dog rather than an 8 week puppy?
> 
> May I just put minds at rest, there is no force nor physical punishment involved. Lead correction with a pull up and across body is as harsh as it gets and 5 mins in his basket for doing anything he's not supposed to.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say that anything that isn't reward-based in training is necessarily wrong or bad, it all depends on the circumstances and the individual dog. Some dogs respond well to lead corrections, others fall apart and become shut-down at this type of training. Unfortunately the average owner does not always recognise the signs that their dog is shut down and uncomfortable and this can create issues.

The video below is a session with the same trainer that you have used, showing an "aggressive" GSD being walked in amongst other dogs after some training. Now I haven't seen what the dog was like before so can only assume it was perhaps exhibiting behaviours such as lunging and barking at other dogs, making it difficult to walk the dog. The video does not show the training techniques used either, only the end result. What you see in the video would appear to some as the dog having been "cured" when in actual fact the dog has become shut down and is showing signs that it is uncomfortable in the situation. What happens with a lot of trainers who claim to cure dogs very quickly is that they actually get the dog and handler to the point where the handler can control the dog (and I am not disputing that there is some value in this) but the dog's emotions have not changed. In some cases the dog's emotions may be worse as he is now having to supress them for fear of punishment.






Your question regarding grading of rewards has been answered above, but if we take recall as an example I use a system like this with my dog:

1. Excellent recall = high value reward such as a ball thrown. An excellent recall would involve the dog coming immediately, without delay, upon being called. It may also involve recalling from a chase.

2. Good recall = medium value reward such as a treat. This recall may involve the dog coming fairly quickly, but there may be a short delay.

3. OK recall = low value reward such as praise or a fuss. This may involve the dog coming back after a bit more of a delay.

Hope this clears things up.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

#Sairy poor dog


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Maybe if that trainer had made it fun for the dog to go by the other dogs it might have been more useful. He did not even acknowledge the dog let alone praise or play.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

That is uncomfortable to watch. 

And I don't want to think how he got the dog to that stage.

To the op - what you will not see from that kind of training is engagement, relaxed handler focus, a dog that is listening. What you have got is a dog that is highly stressed (panting heavily) and working on automatic. The body language reminds me of some of the imported rescue dogs coming off the van. A kind of learned helplessness.

That is the best advert for positive training methods I have seen in a while.

J


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Another book recommendation. 
Canine Body language . A photographic guide. Interpreting the Native language of the native dog by Brenda Aloff.
Lots of photos , lots of explanations . My only gripe is the photos are black and white .

Look inside
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canine-Bod...-Interpreting/dp/1929242352#reader_1929242352

ETA It shows a lot of the book . You might not have to buy it.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

The film is on you tube.
It says

Mica the nervous aggressive German shepherd. Mica would bark and lunge at other dogs even from more than twenty metres away. This video was taken after 90 minutes of training with Ade Howe, dog whisperer. Mica had been to training classes with her owners for three years! They were not allowed to talk to her or correct her but only to reward her when she stopped barking. The owners finally contacted me after the trainer's German shepherd attacked Mica. The trainer blamed Mica (saying she should not have been born) and the owner for being too nervous. I'd be nervous if my dog was being attacked by a trainer's dog.


I would love to see how that dog reacts when its off the lead .

The original trainer wasnt much help either .


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> #Sairy poor dog


I agree and the GSD wasn't the only dog in that video that looked extremely uncomfortable and stressed - poor things.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Twiggy said:


> I agree and the GSD wasn't the only dog in that video that looked extremely uncomfortable and stressed - poor things.


I found it quite creepy how still they were. It looks worse on full screen


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It gets worse . This gives an idea of what he does .





@Dave D Do you find this acceptable?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dave D said:


> I encourage any constructive advice/criticism, but please don't just say whatever is wrong. Thats absolutely useless, not just to me, but to anyone. Please explain why? That way I can understand.


I tend to not think of training in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' but as effective or not.
Is what I'm doing effective?
And by effective, I mean is it having the results - ALL the results I want?

When I ask my dog to do something, yes, I expect him to do it. But I also expect him to do it with enthusiasm.
Sometimes I want him to do it very quickly, without thinking. Some things I want him to slow down and process. Sometimes I even want him to refuse to do what I'm asking (look up intelligent disobedience - it's really cool actually).
But above all, I want my dog to defer to me out of trust and a deep relationship of mutual respect and understanding.

What you want from your dog may be different than what I want from my dogs. And that's okay.
For example, I compete with my dog (or used to) so when I ask for a sit, my criteria will include things that pet owners wouldn't care about in the least.
I also live in a very rural area, without a fenced yard so my criteria for 'come' might be much more stringent than someone who only lets their dog off leash in secure areas.

Regarding the video @Sairy posted. I'm not putting a 'right' or 'wrong' judgement on the training, but I will say what works, doesn't work for me with the standards I have for my dogs:
The dog is behind the handler. Yes, sometimes I do want my dogs behind me, but most of the time, on leash, I want my dogs either next to me or slightly ahead. Especially in high traffic areas, I need to be able to see my dog and see where I am going. I can't do that if the dog is behind me.
One of the biggest reasons I want to see my dog is because we communicate through body language. He can look up at my face and read me, I can glance down at him and read him. If I see him tense at something approaching, I can quickly address it. If he's behind me, a) I won't see him tense, b) he can't glance up at me to see me tell him "no, we're not eating rude dogs today."

Speaking of tense, that GSD bitch is tense. Her ears are low and tight, her eyes are tight, her movements are hesitant, and she looks very much like she doesn't want to be there. If I were out on a walk and my dog started moving like that, I'd bring him to the vet he looks so uncomfortable. I don't want my dogs to be so uncomfortable in an activity like going for a walk that should be pleasurable for them.

The leash is tight. Personally I hate leashes, I hate having to leash my dogs, and the less I notice the leash the better. Because of this, I cannot stand a tight leash, be it pulling ahead or lagging behind. I hate it. I would fix that quickly.

When she stops, the dog barely acknowledges the handler. She's looking around almost as if looking for somewhere to escape to.
I like engagement from my dogs. I like them to check in often, to be looking to me for guidance or anticipation of something good about to happen. If I stop, my dogs look at me happily, usually wondering what's next. I like that connection. I would not enjoy working with a dog who wasn't interested in me. Which is probably why I gravitate towards the breeds that I have. Though GSDs are high on the list of handler dependent breeds, so it's particularly annoying to see a breed like that so disengaged with the handler.

Nit picky, but if you're practicing a heel, and you stop, the dog should sit. That's my obedience side coming out....
Granted, that wasn't much of a heel, it was more of a drag-along.

So yeah, that would not work for me. There are plenty of owners who are perfectly happy with a dog behaving like that. I like to think it's because they haven't had the opportunity to have a different relationship, but I do think is some cases the owners prefer the shut-down version of their dog


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2019)

Hmmm, last video reminds me of Mr Millan. Was that a bit of a knee-strike?

@Dave D - I've read all of your posts, and what you said reminds me of a phrase "treats are for tricks, not good behaviour", is that true for you? I read the quote in a book by Millan. I can't help compare the guy above to Cesar, and i think it goes beyond the whisperer bit.

I'm also interested in what your doggo is upto that requires help! Is it predominantly the walk?


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2019)

This is me being a novice -why does the guy keep nudging the doberman with his knee? Does it serve a purpose?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> @Dave D Do you find this acceptable?


The thing is, neither is acceptable.
Neither the before picture nor the after.

No wonder new owners are confused! 

But seriously, we get all up in arms about the choking, confused, and eventually disengaged and shut-down 'after' picture, but if you're the owner of a dog who behaves like the before picture and you can't figure out how to fix it, you're going to be pretty desperate and happy to accept anything that seems to work.



AsahiGo said:


> This is me being a novice -why does the guy keep nudging the doberman with his knee? Does it serve a purpose?


I didn't see the knee nudges, but I quit watching after the dog started gagging for air.

I'd guess they're to get the dog's attention. Something I would do with treats  Which highlights another important use of treats, they're a good indicator of your dog's mental/emotional state. The foodie dog who can't even take a treat is not in a position to learn anything. Time to back up a lot and start over from where the dog is comfortable enough to take treats.

Also goes back to engagement. For me, and what I want when I'm working with a dog, if I'm having to nudge my dog with my foot to get them to notice me, I've gone way off track. 
I like to train in such a way that when something 'interesting' happens, my dog's first response is to glance at me. I have purposefully trained my last 4 dogs to do exactly this - they default to checking in whenever something unexpected or unusual happens. It's a great tool because once you have engagement, you're 90% there.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> The thing is, neither is acceptable.
> Neither the before picture nor the after.
> 
> No wonder new owners are confused!
> ...


Yep, if your dog will watch you the rest almost comes naturally.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

AsahiGo said:


> Hmmm, last video reminds me of Mr Millan. Was that a bit of a knee-strike?


It looked like one to me.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> It looked like one to me.


It looked like one to me as well. Did you see the way he jabbed the dog with his finger trying to get it to sit down?

No way would I allow anyone to "train" my dogs using his methods.

At present we do 1,2,1 training, mainly for Grisha who at 19 months old has had little or no experience of being in places bustling with people, traffic and all the distractions that go with them, and as a result was fear aggressive. I wish I had a video of our training sessions because our trainer treats my dogs so totally different from the way the trainer in the videos does.

.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2019)

Hmm I put on the video on 'big' on tv, dh watched the gsd one and said the dog looks scared not "respectful" of the handler. And dh is more of an amateur than me...
Scary thing is, Finn was worse than that Dobie, and the thought of him turning into that gsd  id rather have a 'spoilt' pita who's happy.

Saying that, the videos are very old, so maybe he's changed?

Maybe?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

AsahiGo said:


> Hmm I put on the video on 'big' on tv, dh watched the gsd one and said the dog looks scared not "respectful" of the handler. And dh is more of an amateur than me...
> Scary thing is, Finn was worse than that Dobie, and the thought of him turning into that gsd  id rather have a 'spoilt' pita who's happy.
> 
> Saying that, the videos are very old, so maybe he's changed?
> ...


They are only 5 and 6 years old. The trainer has put them up on his own YouTube channel so if he had changed his methods drastically then I would have thought he would have taken them off as they would hardly be a good advert for his methods.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2019)

Trying to be optimistic 

Idk if anyone watched the collie/dogue one, but someone left a comment saying they weren't impressed either


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

AsahiGo said:


> Trying to be optimistic
> 
> Idk if anyone watched the collie/dogue one, but someone left a comment saying they weren't impressed either


I assume you mean this one






Yeah, not a fan.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Him and the Dog Father  :Vomit


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sairy said:


> I assume you mean this one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did anyone notice the collie was panting, drooling,licking its lips, and from it's nose and mouth appeared to be on the point of snarling?

The puppy was either stressing it out or the collie was feeling nauseous.
.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Magyarmum said:


> Did anyone notice the collie was panting, drooling,licking its lips, and from it's nose and mouth appeared to be on the point of snarling?
> 
> The puppy was either stressing it out or the collie was feeling nauseous.
> .


Yup, but apparently the "trainer" is happy to put his dog in this scenario in order to "cure" other dogs. The dogue de bordeaux's issues were apparently that it jumped all over other dogs. There are other ways of resolving this that don't involve making another dog stressed out to this degree


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sairy said:


> Yup, but apparently the "trainer" is happy to put his dog in this scenario in order to "cure" other dogs. The dogue de bordeaux's issues were apparently that it jumped all over other dogs. There are other ways of resolving this that don't involve making another dog stressed out to this degree


How can anyone, least of all someone who professes to be a "behaviourist" be oblivious to their own dog's body language?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Magyarmum said:


> How can anyone, least of all someone who professes to be a "behaviourist" be oblivious to their own dog's body language?


Yup, and he claims to understand the body language of dogs and use it in his training. Unbelievable!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Hey guys?
I don't know how helpful it is to Dave D to turn this in to a Ade Howe bash-fest. :Bag
We all know there are Ade Howe's galore in the dog training world, and these trainers have no shortage of clients. And they will continue to get clients because just as this thread shows, people are confused, worried about their dog's behavior, and desperate.

Pointing out where Mr. Howe gets it wrong (and make no mistake, he's getting it very wrong) is fine, but that still leaves members like Dave D with an adolescent GSD with no training.

Have you ever been on the other end of the leash from a GSD with no training who doesn't give a shit about you? It's not fun. (Well, I mean, unless you have an exceptionally warped sense of humor and tend to laugh at inappropriate moments....) But yeah, I can only imagine. GSDs will scream too. And people look at you funny. 
@Dave D does any of this sound familiar? 
What sorts of issues were/are you having with your dog?
How has your trainer sorted them?

This is the sort of thing I'd like to discuss, and maybe offer some alternative suggestions


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@02.0 The thing is Dave D hasn't responded to questions about how his dog behaves , the same ones you are asking . He hasnt responded to an offer of a recommendation of another behaviourist/trainer. I get the feeling he will go ahead with more "training" sessions with The Dog Listener . 

I dont where Dave D lives , Steven mann is a good trainer.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Have you ever been on the other end of the leash from a GSD with no training who doesn't give a shit about you? It's not fun. (Well, I mean, unless you have an exceptionally warped sense of humor and tend to laugh at inappropriate moments....) But yeah, I can only imagine. GSDs will scream too. And people look at you funny.


Hahahahaha, yep!!! Pretty much sums up how Roxy was, although her's wasn't due to adolescence but more (IMO) stress due to poor socialisation/exposure.

It isn't fun, it is awful. I did lots wrong & tried to 'fix' her too early. Personally I would now always build on my relationship with the dog before I tried any training/behaviour modification …. but that's just me.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Hahahahaha, yep!!! Pretty much sums up how Roxy was, although her's wasn't due to adolescence but more (IMO) stress due to poor socialisation/exposure.
> 
> It isn't fun, it is awful. I did lots wrong & tried to 'fix' her too early. Personally I would now always build on my relationship with the dog before I tried any training/behaviour modification …. but that's just me.


Did you also get re-directed aggression? You get extra points for that I think 

And absolutely, relationship first, then figure out the rest. 
We used to advise new rescue owners to not walk their dogs for the first few weeks (shock and horror) but the idea was to let the dog settle in his/her new home, learn the new environments, get comfortable, start building a relationship with the new people before trying to on top of that try and navigate the big wide world. 
Plus a lot of new owners can't wait to get their dog out and have all their friends meet the new addition etc. But sometimes (often) that's completely counter productive.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Did you also get re-directed aggression? You get extra points for that I think
> 
> And absolutely, relationship first, then figure out the rest.
> We used to advise new rescue owners to not walk their dogs for the first few weeks (shock and horror) but the idea was to let the dog settle in his/her new home, learn the new environments, get comfortable, start building a relationship with the new people before trying to on top of that try and navigate the big wide world.
> Plus a lot of new owners can't wait to get their dog out and have all their friends meet the new addition etc. But sometimes (often) that's completely counter productive.


 this ^ I wish I'd been told this four months ago


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Did you also get re-directed aggression? You get extra points for that I think
> 
> And absolutely, relationship first, then figure out the rest.
> We used to advise new rescue owners to not walk their dogs for the first few weeks (shock and horror) but the idea was to let the dog settle in his/her new home, learn the new environments, get comfortable, start building a relationship with the new people before trying to on top of that try and navigate the big wide world.
> Plus a lot of new owners can't wait to get their dog out and have all their friends meet the new addition etc. But sometimes (often) that's completely counter productive.


Hahaha, I don't get the points as she didn't with me (as I was very careful not to force her in to situations she was uncomfortable with …. I did something right!) but she did with my ex as he was more of the mindset that she should be able to do things (simple things like walking past a boat that was moored without her freaking out) & she did snap at him a few times.

I agree that not walking certain dogs is probably a better idea. I learnt an awful lot through Roxy despite it being a horrible period initially. All my excitement of getting a second dog was quickly knocked out of me as she began to display certain 'problematic' behaviours. For an experienced owner it might not have been so daunting but I was not an experienced owner so it was a very stressful period for all of us.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Have you ever been on the other end of the leash from a GSD with no training who doesn't give a shit about you?


I distinctly remember two GSDs I used to walk when I volunteered with rescues. One, a bitch, was lovely but had no "manners" at all when it came to interacting with humans. I remember having her in one of the enclosed off-leash areas where I was playing with her and she jumped up and grabbed my pony tail, holding on. That wasn't fun! Another, a young GSD called Roy, was incredibly strong and had been passed from pillar to post already in his short life. The rescue insisted that I walked him on a chain lead as he was so strong, which I found odd as a normal nylon or leather lead would have been sufficient. But my goodness was he strong and he pulled like a train with absolutely no interest in me whatsoever. In fact he was so strong that I had to put two leads on him and Nik took the second one to stop me being dragged along. Unfortunately that rescue didn't have an enclosed area and I think if they had that dog would have benefitted from it as it was very difficult to do much with him in the space given.

I have tried to help the OP and have answered questions asked as best as I can, but OK fair point about bashing Mr Howe.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Hey guys?
> I don't know how helpful it is to Dave D to turn this in to a Ade Howe bash-fest. :Bag
> We all know there are Ade Howe's galore in the dog training world, and these trainers have no shortage of clients. And they will continue to get clients because just as this thread shows, people are confused, worried about their dog's behavior, and desperate.
> 
> ...


I apologise if I'm one of those considered guilty of turning this thread.into a"bash-fest" As someone who admits to not knowing much about dog training I just found it incredulous the gentleman in question either didn't know or chose to ignore the obvious! Let's face it though you leave yourself open to criticism if you set yourself up to be something you're so patently not, as the "trainer" under discussion has done!

I do know what it's like to own a GSD with no training and problems resulting from neglect (long story which I won't go into) but who happily ended up as one of the most lovely dogs I've ever owned I also know what it's like to be confronted, more than once by a GSD (who'd escaped from my neighbour's garden) who'd become extremely human aggressive due to being severely neglected On one occasion he even attacked the car I was sitting in, not a very pleasant experience! Shortly after he was shot, having attacked his owner's son.

I sincerely hope @Dave D hasn't been too put off and will return and offer more information. .

Once again my sincere apologies for any offence I may have caused


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

From watching those videos I wouldn't allow him anywhere near my dogs. 

I am a reward based dog trainer. Do I use punishment? Sure I do, that just means reducing a behaviour. What I don't do is intimidate, force, shock, or scare a dog into doing as I want. Will I jerk my dog's collar or harness to get them to stop pulling? No, although they have certainly choked or pulled themselves on occasion it's not something I want to use as a training tool. Building a happy focused dog who wants to listen and understand what I want of them is what I attempt to do! If my dog is pulling and uninterested in me and what I am doing then there's a lot more basic relationship work that needs doing, it's not a lead walking issue in my opinion.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> It gets worse . This gives an idea of what he does .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is outdated harsh stuff that anybody can do, given the method (collar high up and tight on the throat), and a bit of 'stringing up' if the dog objects. Horrible to watch someone claiming this is training; it's not, it's subduing. It's taking the light out of your dog's eyes, and anybody who trains happy dogs knows what that means.

And first rule of APDT, BIPT and others is; never take somebody's dog to show them how it should be done because for you, that the dog doesn't have an attitude to, it will most likely behave impeccably, making the owners feel hopeless and unmotivated.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

This conversation also brought back to me something I was told, I think by John Rogerson (name dropping again).

If you want to teach a dog to sit in one particular corner of a room, you can beat it when it goes into the three wrong corners and that will work. Or you can reward it when it goes to the right corner, and that will also work: But at the end of these processes you would get two completely different dogs.

I use food to train, by the way, and for my dog each training session is a massive opportunity for him to EARN good stuff if he applies himself and gets what I want him to do. He knows I have the treats in my pocket all the time and is usually pretty happy to demonstrate how ‘good’ he can be.

A bribe, on the other hand, would be me showing him the treats and coercing him into doing something for them.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> This conversation also brought back to me something I was told, I think by John Rogerson (name dropping again).
> 
> If you want to teach a dog to sit in one particular corner of a room, you can beat it when it goes into the three wrong corners and that will work. Or you can reward it when it goes to the right corner, and that will also work: But at the end of these processes you would get two completely different dogs.
> 
> ...


I love name dropping  Sarah Whitehead said something similar.

I do lure my dogs with a treat sometimes. It is useful for nervous dogs .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

And I too apologize for sounding like I was reprimanding anyone, I really wasn't! I totally agree that the videos show terrible 'training' and it needs to be called out. 
I was just hoping the OP wouldn't get flooded and disengage. Plus all the video views are driving traffic up for that trainer....

But anyway....
Was listening to the "Drinking from the Toilet" podcast this morning, Hannah was interviewing Steve White (I can name drop too ) and it got me to thinking about the dobie pup/adolescent in one of those videos.

@Dave D I know you're still reading even if you're not commenting, this is for you too:
The training style we choose is often based on the lens through which we see our dog's behavior, or even our dog. 
What do you see when you see that adolescent doberman leaping and lunging at the end of his leash? Do you see an out of control dog? Do you see a defiant dog who's protesting the restraint of the leash? Do you see a naughty dog who needs correcting?

I look at dogs like that (and this may be part of my issue with the dogs I end up with), but I see that dobie and I think "oh yeah! That's what I want." But what I'm seeing is not the naughtiness and horrible leash manners, I'm looking at the enthusiasm, the eagerness. Oh I love that in a dog.

The leaping and lunging is incidental. Doesn't really bother me. One, I can fix it in less time than Ade Howe can. 100% guaranteed too. Want to know the secret? 
Unclip the leash from the collar.
Yup. 100% effective in eliminating any and all annoying leash behavior. Works every single time.

Okay, I know, I know that's not the point. You want the dog to understand leash manners, I get that. But it helps you re-focus the lens through which you see the dog and the behavior. 
What is really the problem here? Is it the dog, or is it the leash? Because to me, there is no real problem with a dog being happy and enthusiastic. Just be happy and enthusiastic without removing my arm from it's socket.

But what I definitely don't want to do is lose that enthusiasm and eagerness the dog shows. I want him to be mannerly on leash, so yes, I will teach leash manners, but I'll do it without losing that zest that makes that makes that pup so appealing to me.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Just to lighten the tone of this post and add a bit of humour - here's a video of Fidget performing at Crufts in 1999. If you watch it to the end it's pretty clear what was her motivation and reward.....LOL




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10218655793599085


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Twiggy said:


> Just to lighten the tone of this post and add a bit of humour - here's a video of Fidget performing at Crufts in 1999. If you watch it to the end it's pretty clear what was her motivation and reward.....LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I absolutely LOVE it!! Ha ha! How many hats did you go through for that routine?  The handler is you yes?


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Stunning performance from both of you.

I’m inspired to teach my doggie some of this stuff (although it certainly wouldn’t be to that standard). Busy trying to talk myself out of even trying because I know I’ll end up on the floor.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Oh I absolutely LOVE it!! Ha ha! How many hats did you go through for that routine?  The handler is you yes?


I was desperately trying to get it off her in something like a dignified manner as we had to perform the routine again later. Obviously I used an old hat for training.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I want to know how many times you trod on her tail when she was doing that roll under your feet thing!

But seriously, absolutely inspiring.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Twiggy said:


> Just to lighten the tone of this post and add a bit of humour - here's a video of Fidget performing at Crufts in 1999. If you watch it to the end it's pretty clear what was her motivation and reward.....LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aww I love it, great performance and it's amazing what things they find most rewarding. During the summer months when I am practising with Holly in the garden the greatest reward she gets is a spray of the hosepipe. At the end of the session I say to her "Yes! Hosepipe!" and she will run over to the hosepipe to await her reward.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Twiggy said:


> Just to lighten the tone of this post and add a bit of humour - here's a video of Fidget performing at Crufts in 1999. If you watch it to the end it's pretty clear what was her motivation and reward.....LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brilliant


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Twiggy said:


> Just to lighten the tone of this post and add a bit of humour - here's a video of Fidget performing at Crufts in 1999. If you watch it to the end it's pretty clear what was her motivation and reward.....LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Brilliant! Love her enthusiasm! And that's what you want from a dog, the desire, drive and LOVE to work with you!


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Twiggy said:


> If you watch it to the end it's pretty clear what was her motivation and reward.....LOL


What a great performance - what wonderful focus - and what pleasure she showed when she finally got her hat 

It is an excellent example of motivation and reward. My young Lab shows the same uninhibited pleasure when rewarded with her soft green ball.

J


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Ive seen mary ray at Discover dogs. She is amazing. All done with a clicker . Ive seen a film clip of her training a 3 month puppy to do this and he was having the time of his life. I just wish i could find the film clip . 
I have one from when I saw her at Discover dogs.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Philippa Williams is someone that I look up to...awesome gundog trainer who uses reward based methods and treats


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Love this one from the FCI 2016 Dance World Championship - They came 2nd!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

This video was made about 10 or 11 years ago . Barney and Dibby now at the Bridge.
I think it comes under the label of training failure. :Hilarious
Ive just made it public .There is a lot of back ground noise .


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I've just seen this one on Facebook. So sweet and shows just what even the tiniest dog is capable of!


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

@Dave D are you still around? How are things going with Dave?


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> Ive seen mary ray at Discover dogs. She is amazing. All done with a clicker . Ive seen a film clip of her training a 3 month puppy to do this and he was having the time of his life. I just wish i could find the film clip .
> I have one from when I saw her at Discover dogs.


Yes Fidget performed at Discover Dogs but a different routine. I know Mary pretty well and we went and did a stint on 'Richard and Judy' for ITV years ago.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

Thought maybe, just maybe after 8 months I'd give a REAL world update on how I progressed...
This is not advice, it is my unique experience.

Firstly I stopped reading 'advice'. Every dog is different, every dog has it's own history, experience and personality. The advice given by an owner of a small docile dog is next to useless if you have a big, powerful aggressive dog and obviously vice versa.
I made the error of not considering WHERE the advice was coming from. Whilst at the time of the initial post, I was inexperienced, but had a dog with his individual UNIQUE history. This is my opinion, but even the most seasoned trainer will never have encountered the combination of problems and circumstance that you are in. That changes things drastically. Professional training is fabulous within a controlled environment at a facility, but will it work if you live in a city centre on the 5th floor in a high rise and you go out at knocking off time at 5pm on a Friday?
It's been a difficult time, it's cost me over £3000 to totally replace a lawn, I've made endless mistakes whilst attempting to get Dave (my GSD to save you trawling back through thread) to anywhere near acceptable behaviour.
Now this is MY experience, I am not saying it works for anyone else, but Dave was way set in his ways, behaviour and had his own opinions which given he was a 90lb 6ft tall on his back legs and knew absolutely no fear whatsoever were, shall I say 'a challenge' to overcome. It felt as if I were bailing out the titanic with a bucket. YES. There was more than once or twice the towel nearly got thrown in.
My breakthrough came though starting on March 24th. Someone somewhere caught a cold and the country we used to know shut down. This meant for the following 4 months we were together, like it or not 24/7. In the space of a week without spending a penny Dave went from emulating Stephen Kings Kujo to beyond behaviour I could wish for. I gained his trust just by being there, I didn't hit him as he was previously by the scum he used to live with (there were few stern words now and then however) but I guess this time together eased his fears of new home and owner and accelerated his settling in.
The next breakthrough was with myself, it pains me to admit, but I do care what people think and I was suffering from embarrassment out in public with a muzzled lunatic dog who's OTT nervous aggression meant he wanted to fight anything within his range of vision, including fast moving traffic!
Now I'm going to upset some people now. Did you know that some dog owners don't understand that it takes a bit of time to train a dog? Not all dogs are lucky enough to be raised properly in the first 8 weeks of their life and therefore aren't exactly sociable on day one, week one or even month one yet they expect Lassie to be on the lead at all times!
I threw my pride out the window and accepted things could go wrong. It did! I ended up on my backside more than once chasing dogs, cats, birds and transit vans, I was in danger of being investigated by Operation Yewtree when Dave went through a week of chasing kids on bikes!! I'm 6ft 1", weigh 205lbs and train twice a week and Dave can 'rag-doll' me if he wants easily.
To sum up (I've wrote this post on and off over last 6 hours, so know it a lengthy one). I thought I'd at least share my story on the thread I started late last year. We got there! It was earning Daves trust, learning to put my own pride aside and accepting that things go wrong sometimes and it might make me look a little stupid in public.

However. We got there!!
(So far)....

Dave....


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Dave D said:


> Thought maybe, just maybe after 8 months I'd give a REAL world update on how I progressed...
> This is not advice, it is my unique experience.
> 
> Firstly I stopped reading 'advice'. Every dog is different, every dog has it's own history, experience and personality. The advice given by an owner of a small docile dog is next to useless if you have a big, powerful aggressive dog and obviously vice versa.
> ...


But ....but.... but ..... a face like that can't possibly be norti 

Seriously though congratulations!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dave D said:


> It was earning Daves trust, learning to put my own pride aside and accepting that things go wrong sometimes and it might make me look a little stupid in public.


I'm very glad you're feeling more hopeful, thought it's too bad you quit listening to advice, as I think if you had taken the time to read through all the posts on this thread and throughout the forum, you would have seen that overwhelmingly, that's the exact advice you would have gotten here. 
Build trust, check your ego, and give it time for the relationship to develop.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> I'm very glad you're feeling more hopeful, thought it's too bad you quit listening to advice, as I think if you had taken the time to read through all the posts on this thread and throughout the forum, you would have seen that overwhelmingly, that's the exact advice you would have gotten here.
> Build trust, check your ego, and give it time for the relationship to develop.


Point taken and understood. It is one thing reading advice, another taking it and putting into practice!

Guilty! It is from these mistakes I learn.....


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dave D said:


> Point taken and understood. It is one thing reading advice, another taking it and putting into practice!
> 
> Guilty! It is from these mistakes I learn.....


Just for my own curiosity, did you read through this thread?
Are you still working with Ade Howe?


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Dave D said:


> Thought maybe, just maybe after 8 months I'd give a REAL world update on how I progressed...
> This is not advice, it is my unique experience.
> 
> Firstly I stopped reading 'advice'. Every dog is different, every dog has it's own history, experience and personality. The advice given by an owner of a small docile dog is next to useless if you have a big, powerful aggressive dog and obviously vice versa.
> ...


He is a very handsome chap. Glad you stuck with it. Your last sentence sums up dog ownership to me. Well done.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

To.be 100% honest I did go through thread, though at speed read pace, so it'd be fair to say 'not properly'. As for Ade, no I'm Inot working with him, I would have liked anotheŕ session as he did work wonders (credit where it's due), but there's this 'bug' going round.....


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

Apologies. Ĺast post in reference to O2.D. Thought I'd quoted!?!?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dave D said:


> To.be 100% honest I did go through thread, though at speed read pace, so it'd be fair to say 'not properly'. As for Ade, no I'm Inot working with him, I would have liked anotheŕ session as he did work wonders (credit where it's due), but there's this 'bug' going round.....


It would be nice to hear more about Dave, see more pictures of him, hear about progress and such


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

@Dave D please stick around. I'd love to hear more about what you've been doing with Dave. He's a lovely looking fella.


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## Dave D (Nov 27, 2019)

Sairy said:


> @Dave D please stick around. I'd love to hear more about what you've been doing with Dave. He's a lovely looking fella.


Few pics of the World's naughtiest dog.....


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Dave D said:


> Few pics of the World's naughtiest dog.....
> View attachment 448272
> View attachment 448273
> View attachment 448272
> ...


I don't believe you - he's gorgeous.....LOL


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Dave D said:


> Few pics of the World's naughtiest dog.....
> View attachment 448272
> View attachment 448273
> View attachment 448272
> ...


I'll have him! He's lovely


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

A handsome face like that can't possibly be naughty! You must be telling fibs!


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