# Prong collars - why?



## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

I follow a group on facebook where members can display pictures of their fit, healthy dogs. Yet it seems quite a few members use prong collars on their dogs. 
I personally do not like the thought of a prong collar and it sounds cruel but I do not know enough about them and why they are used. 
As I know there are some really knowledgeable members on here I thought I would ask. Are they one of those things that if you know what you are doing they are ok? Are they used instead of training or alongside training?
I do not plan to use one ever but just genuinely intrigued.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

It doesn't "sound" cruel........ it uses pain to get a dog to do what you want........ some think this is an acceptable way of training, and defend it saying those who slate them "dont know how to use them properly" - yeah ok
Then there are those who just abuse them to the point of abject creulty


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

Prong collars do look awful, and they are meant to be painful to the dog if he/she pulls on them. 
That said, there are a lot of tools out there that don’t look as awful that are every bit as aversive as a prong if not more so but get a pass because they don’t look quite as bad. 

I’m not a fan of prong collars and don’t use them, but I know people I respect as trainers who do or have and I don’t have an issue with their well thought out choice. 

Personally I would rather see a dog on a prong than on a choke chain. 
Prong collars have limited tightening and won’t tighten around the neck after a certain point. 
They’re also not as painful as they look. Those prongs are flat and dull on the end, yes it’s uncomfortable, and meant to be uncomfortable enough to deter pulling, but it’s not that uncomfortable. In fact it’s not uncommon to see dogs happily pulling through the prong because they have become desensitized to them. 

In some cases I would rather see a dog on a prong than a head halter. Some dogs find head halters highly aversive even without a leash attached. A prong doesn’t hurt just sitting there, it feels like any other collar. Head halters on some more facially sensitive dogs are going to be aversive just sitting on the dog’s face. Witnessed by the owners who say they put a head halter on their dog and the dog just “calms down”. Read: dog hates it and has shut down slightly.

A huge caution with prong collars is that one, they pop off easily. You really need a back-up collar with a prong because the way they’re put together means they can pop apart very easily and usually when you least want them to. They’re not designed to be pulled on, they’re designed to have very little pressure put on them, so if a heavy dog lunges suddenly, the prong can easily come apart. 

Another huge issue with prongs is that they tend to agitate dogs who are already reactive. Basically they piss the dog off more. Dog is already annoyed a the presence of another dog, and then feels a sharp pain in his neck. This just adds to the dog’s negative associations with other dogs. 
They’re really not a tool for the APO to reach for IMHO.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> It doesn't "sound" cruel........ it uses pain to get a dog to do what you want........ some think this is an acceptable way of training, and defend it saying those who slate them "dont know how to use them properly" - yeah ok
> Then there are those who just abuse them to the point of abject creulty
> View attachment 282020


That photo is of an embedded collar. Same thing that can happen with a flat collar. Those injuries don't happen from normal use, and even a good yank on the prong wouldn't cause that.

I'm all for educating owners on the realities of tools and not using euphemisms for what tools do, but I also think it's important to be factual in how we educate. Otherwise it becomes too easy to discredit the valid information given out just because one point was not accurate.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

They are in the same vein as shock collars IMO
If used correctly then they can be used without causing pain...Not for me tho, and not for the vast majority of dog owners either!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> It doesn't "sound" cruel........ it uses pain to get a dog to do what you want........ some think this is an acceptable way of training, and defend it saying those who slate them "dont know how to use them properly" - yeah ok
> Then there are those who just abuse them to the point of abject creulty
> View attachment 282020


Oh my God. I couldn't bring myself to like your post, but needed to acknowledge it. I'm in shock and feel quite sick


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> That photo is of an embedded collar. Same thing that can happen with a flat collar. Those injuries don't happen from normal use, and even a good yank on the prong wouldn't cause that.
> 
> I'm all for educating owners on the realities of tools and not using euphemisms for what tools do, but I also think it's important to be factual in how we educate. Otherwise it becomes too easy to discredit the valid information given out just because one point was not accurate.


There are several like it on a google search with just a couple of puncture wounds, inflicted by prong and or shock collars "incorrectly used" so no its not just an "embedded" collar that can cause puncturing of the skin IMO


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> It doesn't "sound" cruel........ it uses pain to get a dog to do what you want........ some think this is an acceptable way of training, and defend it saying those who slate them "dont know how to use them properly" - yeah ok
> Then there are those who just abuse them to the point of abject creulty
> View attachment 282020


Sickening! 

I don't think there is any way of justifying their use EVER!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> In some cases I would rather see a dog on a prong than a head halter. Some dogs find head halters highly aversive even without a leash attached. A prong doesn't hurt just sitting there, it feels like any other collar. Head halters on some more facially sensitive dogs are going to be aversive just sitting on the dog's face. Witnessed by the owners who say they put a head halter on their dog and the dog just "calms down". Read: dog hates it and has shut down slightly.


This got me thinking about Lola, I suspect she would prefer a prong to a head halter, as she is so head shy that if I tried to put a halter on her she'd have the screaming abdabs. But given she loves it when Dex drags her around by her neck, she'd probably quite enjoy a prong collar


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> It doesn't "sound" cruel........ it uses pain to get a dog to do what you want........ some think this is an acceptable way of training, and defend it saying those who slate them "dont know how to use them properly" - yeah ok
> Then there are those who just abuse them to the point of abject creulty
> View attachment 282020


That photo is so upsetting 
They sound awful and not something I would ever want to use. Are they the last straw if training does not work? I just cannot get my head round them.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

There are also differing types of "prong" one which is designed to restrict the windpipe, one which has prongs on the underside of a normal flat collar (sometimes sharpened).............. I just dont see the need to even want to inflict "uncomfortable" on a dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have never used a prong collar and do not know anyone that does. I have used an e collar and know plenty that do and know that they are not in the least bit cruel when used correctly but are pretty horrid if used wrong so I will take Ouesi's word for it that prong collars are similar.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Incidentally I have seen similar wounds to the one in the picture, except all the way round the neck rather than in 'prongs' with embedded collars, chains on cows and noses of horses with embedded headcollars - hideous and so neglectful.


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## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

I'm not personally a fan of them but I often see them used with a breed I admire but personally I think in those situations it's more to do with owners being 'over-dogged' or not having the skills, experience and, or knowledge to deal with the problem another way so a prong collar can be seen as a quicker, although often temporary fix to the issue.

Thank you Ouesi for a detailed explanation on how they work!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> There are several like it on a google search with just a couple of puncture wounds, inflicted by prong and or shock collars "incorrectly used" so no its not just an "embedded" collar that can cause puncturing of the skin IMO


It's the same dog in different photos. 
The other photos are pressure necrosis sores. That's not a puncturing of the skin, but a bedsore type injury from the collar (shock or prong) being left on - neglect.

Again if we're going to educate owners on the issues with certain tools - which I'm all for BTW, we have to do so accurately otherwise we risk losing credibility.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

The only prong collars I have seen are as Ouesi describes.

This was when I worked at pet shop, well it was more helping a friend in dire straits for 6 months and they were in catalogues with 360 degrees views. We did not stock them. They didn't look as brutal as the ones on the internet google shows. They showed the size and how much they tighten. Which was not much. On par with a semi slip.

My guilty pleasure bought out of boredom is to watch KUWTK....see I can't even admit to typing the whole name! Last night was a very old episode, so old there was a 'dad' in the episode. Those who get what I am on about will understand the dad comment! The dad had been sneaking round apparently dog training a daughters dog. He left the prong collar on, if it was so horrible, his daughter would not have been practically caressing the prong collar in her hand whilst confronting him. It would have bloody hurt to hold, as I really wouldn't want to hold many of them prong collars in my hand from them google images!

Yes nasty ones are probably available, and the likes of ebay..i don't know of they have a policy on them. However the internet is not called the world wide web for nothing.

Those pet stores in the UK who do market them, well you are actually looking at limited supplies for the UK pet industry. Which will be most likely the ones Ouesi mentioned.

My personal opinion I don't like them and choke chains! However the market for choke chains is so popular but i don't really know how many know how to use one correctly! I know it is as p and q but i think people would think i am off this planet!


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

I have used one on myself to see what they feel like, the ends are blunt so not designed to 'stab' the however when tightened it does pinch the skin together slightly


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

I've had dogs in the kennels with horrendous wounds to the neck caused by over tight nylon collars.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

XemzX said:


> That photo is so upsetting
> They sound awful and not something I would ever want to use. Are they the last straw if training does not work? I just cannot get my head round them.


I have never seen any dog with injuries such as this from "normal" use of a pinch/prong collar and those injuries have not been incurred in this manner. it is a very emotive photo however.

The collar has either become embedded during growth or the dog has been dragged etc


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## Laney_Lemons (Mar 23, 2016)

I dont know the in & outs of these collars but personally i would never use one. Just personal preference.. i will stick to a boring old collar


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

What I don't understand is why owners choose to use one, so assumedly happy in that choice, but then try to disguise them by tying bandanas around their dogs neck etc. So perhaps there is an element of guilt or 'wrong doing' at the back of their minds. If you want to use one, just bloody use one without dressing it up as something it's not.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> This got me thinking about Lola, I suspect she would prefer a prong to a head halter, as she is so head shy that if I tried to put a halter on her she'd have the screaming abdabs. But given she loves it when Dex drags her around by her neck, she'd probably quite enjoy a prong collar


I don't think you're being serious, but I would not recommend a prong collar on any dog who is reactive on leash. 
They have a tendency to amp the dog up even more, or add to the negative associations with whatever the dog is reacting to.

Prongs are good tools for a very specific type of dog with a knowledgeable owner/handler.

There are also special cases where a prong makes more sense than other tools though the ultimate goal is for the dog to not need the prong at all. Like so many stop pulling tools based on making the dog uncomfortable, they have a tendency to lose effectiveness with prolonged use.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

http://suzanneclothier.com/training-prong-collar


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> This got me thinking about Lola, I suspect she would prefer a prong to a head halter, as she is so head shy that if I tried to put a halter on her she'd have the screaming abdabs. But given she loves it when Dex drags her around by her neck, she'd probably quite enjoy a prong collar


http://suzanneclothier.com/problem-head-halters


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Foul. Hideous. Nauseating. Revolting. Bast--ds.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I don't think you're being serious, but I would not recommend a prong collar on any dog who is reactive on leash.
> They have a tendency to amp the dog up even more, or add to the negative associations with whatever the dog is reacting to.
> 
> Prongs are good tools for a very specific type of dog with a knowledgeable owner/handler.
> ...


Don't worry, that was firmly tongue in cheek. Both of mine only have collars because a) I thought Lola's was pretty and I felt the need to spend money that I don't have, and b) somewhere to hang their ID discs. I spoke to my vet about the dangers of attaching leads to collars on dogs who pull, and there is absolutely no way I will ever risk it with mine.

I have had quite a few people tell me to put both of mine in halters, which I'm not a huge fan of, but Lola, especially, would be thoroughly unhappy.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

In that particular group, you tend to see a lot of offlead dogs _still_ wearing the prongs.
I can't help but think - even if they don't cause damage with regular use - that getting it caught on a bush or on another dog while running around at speed is not going to be nice!!! Surely far worse than the same happening with a standard collar.

I don't like how people seem proud of using them...


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> http://suzanneclothier.com/problem-head-halters


I had never seen one before, but a few months ago, a beautiful Weimy came into the pet shop that I was in. The poor thing had a very poorly fitter halter that had ridden up and shut its eye. Added to that, every time he tried to paw it off, the owner hauled the lead straight up, pulling the cheek strap further into his eye. I have since discovered that there are far better fitting ones, but that one experience really put me off.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

BlueJay said:


> In that particular group, you tend to see a lot of offlead dogs _still_ wearing the prongs.
> I can't help but think - even if they don't cause damage with regular use - that getting it caught on a bush or on another dog while running around at speed is not going to be nice!!! Surely far worse than the same happening with a standard collar.
> 
> I don't like how people seem proud of using them...


Yes, prong collars pose a huge risk if left on a loose dog, especially playing with other dogs. Lots of accidents happen that way. They really should be removed when the leash is removed!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> What I don't understand is why owners choose to use one, so assumedly happy in that choice, but then try to disguise them by tying bandanas around their dogs neck etc. So perhaps there is an element of guilt or 'wrong doing' at the back of their minds. If you want to use one, just bloody use one without dressing it up as something it's not.


Its a training tool, am not sure how you would attach a bandana to be honest...but are you sure its not on the flat collar worn in combo or just a bandana the dog would typically wear regardless whether or not the dog is using a training aide or not...

Some people say a picture says a thousand words...these can be misconstrued as often seen here.

Although...people do have weird and wonderful ideas and plain collars do not cut it for some people so that just maybe it, it might not be 'hiding' the aide but making aesthetically pleasing to the eye...and am sure the many here with fancy collars and harnesses, which are used as part of responsible ownership and training aids too can all be under fire for that.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

I've been for a nosey again... This dog. Where is the sense in having a choke chain, a prong collar AND an e-collar on at the same time?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> Its a training tool, am not sure how you would attach a bandana to be honest...but are you sure its not on the flat collar worn in combo or just a bandana the dog would typically wear regardless whether or not the dog is using a training aide or not...
> 
> Some people say a picture says a thousand words...these can be misconstrued as often seen here.
> 
> Although...people do have weird and wonderful ideas and plain collars do not cut it for some people so that just maybe it, it might not be 'hiding' the aide but making aesthetically pleasing to the eye...and am sure the many here with fancy collars and harnesses, which are used as part of responsible ownership and training aids too can all be under fire for that.


I think Lou means the ones that look like a normal collar on the outside but are pronged.... like this









Ohh look jazzy collar- and no one can tell its not just a half check....... there is literally no other reason for the covering


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Lexiedhb

Then there are those who just abuse them to the point of abject cruelty
View attachment 282020


/QUOTE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUOTE, Lexiedhb:

There are several like it on a Google search with just a couple of puncture wounds, inflicted by prong and / or shock collars "incorrectly used", so no, it's not just an "embedded" collar that can cause puncturing of the skin, IMO.

/QUOTE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









Prong-collars are *intended* as training collars only, & to be used only while training - not for ordinary walks, toilet-trips, or exercise, & certainly not for carrying I-D, such as owner's tag or rabies tag or dog-license.
.
Too dam*ed many ppl use them as a crutch, forgoing the obvious need to TRAIN THE DOG, & simply using them as a convenient form of restraint - like a no-pull harness, which can equally cause horrific injuries.
.
Please note that to cause that damage, the collar sat in ONE PLACE on the dog's skin, unmoving, for a very long time - weeks, if not months, of constant contact, day & night. The necrotic skin surrounding each hole in the lower set of punctures is a clear telltale, & the difference in diameter between the top row of punctures & the bottom has 2 prime causes: the difference in WEIGHT between the rim & base of the collar, where more wt would naturally rest [gravity], & the difference in DIAMETER of the dog's neck, which tapers from base to skull.
Basically, the dog wore the collar as if it was a tag-collar, 24 / 7 - & outgrew the set diameter as s/he grew. [I'd bet this photo is of a M dog, FWIW, looking at the backskull & shoulder.]
Please take a good look at this -








Necrosis is clearly visible, as is swelling of the dog's neck from underlying infection - & i can tell U from blunt personal experience, this would STINK. U could be 3-ft from that dog, & smell those wounds. The dog most-likely lived outdoors, in a pen, or a fenced yard - if he'd been chained, the chain would equalize the pressure on the links, making the difference in diameter of puncture, less - the top row, IOW, would be closer to identical to the bottom punctures, with the difference entirely attributable to the taper of the dog's neck, but all the punctures would be DEEPER, due to the greater pressure.
.
The only good thing about this is that it's been caught early, & will heal very quickly - good home-nursing, keeping it clean & dry under a layer of gauze [changed 2X daily till it stopped draining] with vet-wrap over it, & he'd heal within 7 to 12 days' time.
.
Proper introduction & habituation of a headcollar would take about the same time as the healing process [about a week] - a front-clip H-harness, with the leash clipped to the chest, could be used immediately, & give good safe control of what i'd bet is a totally-untrained adolescent dog.
He may have been wearing that prong since he was 4-MO. Much as i dislike them, *no one *but a neglectful arsewipe lets a dog's neck be slowly throttled by an outgrown collar, even if it's a buckle collar. 

QUOTE, StormyThai:

They are in the same vein as *shock collars*, IMO.
If used correctly, then *they can be used **without **causin**g* *p**ain* -- Not for me tho, and not for the vast majority of dog owners, either!

/QUOTE
.
No, they can't be "used without pain".
They are **designed** to cause pain, even if it's some minimal level of discomfort - without it, they have zero purpose & zero effect. Let's be extremely clear about this, too: aversives do not work if they are not AVERSIVE.
.
If the dog utterly ignores the prong-collar when it's 1st put on, as s/he tightens it while straining toward some desired person or object, there's no point in using a prong collar on that dog - period. Using it "harder", tugging or jerking, is only an intensification of the discomfort, & obviously this is a stoic dog.
It's not ethical or humane to use a prong on a dog who is largely going to ignore pain in their efforts to get what they want, when they want it - thus, dogs from working-lines, pit-types, guarding breeds, etc, are not generally good candidates for prong collars, as they rapidly habituate to the discomfort, forcing the handler to get rougher & rougher to dissuade the dog from pulling / lunging / forging at heel / whatever.
.
it's an unfortunate truth that the very dogs seen sporting prong-collars [bully breeds, mastiffs, guarding breeds, working-lines GSDs, VHDs, Labs from hunting-lines, & similar] are precisely the stoic types who are least-likely to respond to a prong-collar at lesser levels of intensity, & the handler will have to be either very skilled in its use, or very persistent, to get decent results - neither of which is likely to be true of an APO owner with one of these breeds. 
.
The skill lies in quickly & accurately tightening the collar, then instantly RELEASING the tension so the dog is *rewarded* for their own brief hesitation - which rarely happens when a pet-owner is applying a prong. What U most-often see is a dog who hauls the owner along the street with the prong at maximum tension / minimum diameter, & the dog is entirely habituated & ignores it utterly - despite the fact that, yes, it bl**dy well does hurt.
.
.
.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Lexiedhb
> 
> Then there are those who just abuse them to the point of abject cruelty
> View attachment 282020
> ...


Errr which is why I said some people ABUSE their use to the point of creulty - wether that is yank and crank or leaving the dog to out grow their collar.......... of course the injuries in that picture did not happen in one 20 min training session with an awesome handler (cough, if folk who use these things can be called awesome).... but there are several other pics of single or dual puncture woulds/ sores caused by these or shock collars in a quick google search


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, BlueJay:

...
Where is the sense in having a choke chain, a prong collar, AND a shock-collar on [one dog, all] at the same time? 

/QUOTE
.








.
Because the owner is an eejit who owns one of those stoic breeds; s/he's overdogged; can't be arsed to waste pocket-space or wear a fanny-pack to hold 2 of the collars just in case, to swap collars under the current circs; the dog is poorly trained with little impulse control; & s/he's far-too reliant on aversive tools - as s/he hasn't trained sufficiently for fluency & compliance, using positive reinforcement to build rapid, happy response to any well-taught cue.
.
In a nutshell. 
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Lexiedhb:

... there are several other pics of *single or dual puncture wounds / sores*, *caused by prong or shock collars*, in a quick Google search.

/QUOTE
.
.
Lexie, could U please post a link to the search U did? - that way we could literally parse the pictures on the page, & see what each looks like, so that they can be correctly attributed to either a prong collar, a shock-collar's electrodes, or something else.
.
Warning:
for some ppl, this will be TMI or too graphic a description.
I was at the Belleville-PA weekly auction & saw a pretty young pony, Welsh type but a grade, in a loose box; a gelding, who might have been 8 to 12-MO... but when i reached up to scratch his head, altho he'd been curious & friendly, he flung his head up & backed off - then cautiously re-approached me.
It took me almost 10-minutes to get a good look behind his left ear *without *touching his halter or his head, & i was horrified to see that this unbroken colt was wearing a faded nylon halter so old, the tongue had worn thru the holes where it might fit him, leaving a continuous vertical slot instead of 2 spaced holes; the owner had TIED the ends in a knot - & the square corner of the buckle, & the loose tongue, had gouged his skin.
He literally had a hole behind his ear - as deep as my thumbnail, & 3/4-inch wide. The wound was clean, but obviously very painful. He was going to be LED into the auction ring, & the pain & potential damage would be awful.
.
I went to the Amish harness-maker, bought a wide-strap leather halter that would fit him for his lifetime, went back & cut the old halter off with my Case knife, slitting the skinny sides where it had been worn to a "frame" of stitching & narrow strands of strap - that was fun, took me a half-hour of coaxing & treats between cuts --- & finally slipped the new one on, & fitted the buckle home.
The odds are good that he went to the slaughterhouse, as he was unbroken & unremarkable - but at least he went to the ring without being in agony every time the lead was tugged, & maybe, just maybe, they let him wear the halter to be tied in the truck.
I took the old green nylon halter with me, & dropped it deep into a distant Dumpster so no one could put it back on him - or on any other poor beast - ever again.
It wasn't much, but it was all i could do for him. 
.
.
Foals & pups grow quickly, & collars - whether on heads or necks - should be checked daily for size, wear, & anything caught on or under them, such as grass awns, burrs, a twisted buckle, or anything that may put pressure on skin - especially OVER BONE. Boney prominences are especially vulnerable to pressure sores - so harness points that touch any boney prominence, or run over or near thin-skinned areas such as armpits or groin, both the gear & the animal should be checked before & after every wearing.
U check the gear for sharp protrusions, cracked leather (which can pinch skin, pull hair, or break), or other roughness; U check the skin & hair of the animal for any injury - bruising, wear, baldness from friction, heat, swelling, etc.
This applies to both working animals & any pet who wears a harness or collar, a pack, etc.
.
.
.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

BlueJay said:


> I've been for a nosey again... This dog. Where is the sense in having a choke chain, a prong collar AND an e-collar on at the same time?


Clearly that dog is just that badass that he needs 3 training collars 
Too bad for the owner they're just advertising incompetence instead of badassery


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## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

The only time I've ever seen one was on the front of the news of the world where a local mp had been caught with his trousers down...i think whips were involved as well...:Nailbiting

But seriously i would never use one on a dog .....im sure as others have said in the right hands and used correctly they might work ...but personally anything that hurts a dog to control it is bad in my book


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

FWIW, I could do a google search right now on flexi leash injuries and get some pretty graphic results. 
Doesn't mean the flexi is an abusive tool or that people who use flexis are abusive. It just means that even with a benign tool like a flexi, idiots will find a way to abuse them, use them incorrectly, and injure dogs in the process. 

Even if you yank the snot out of a dog wearing a prong collar, you're not going to cause that sort of injury. Which of course no one should be doing, I'm just pointing out that pulling hard on a prong isn't going to cause the prong to puncture the skin. Actually the more likely scenario is that the prong will just pop off.

Around here it's fairly common to see a lab or pit bull type being walked on a prong collar and the dog is pulling for all they're worth and the collar is not puncturing the skin. 

The only way you get that type of injury is either pressure necrosis from leaving the collar on as a regular wear collar, or allowing the collar to become embedded as the dog grows. 

Same sort of injury happens with flat collars, horse halters, plain rope, etc. It's a neglect issue, not a tool issue.


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## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

I've just used google and typed in prong collar .....why do all the images look like they belong in a medival torture chamber example









I've not yet found one that shows flat bumps rather than spikes....or have i totally missed something and they actually all look like this

If that's the case then i cant see how this would just cause discomfort to a dog...to me it would seem to cause considerable pain


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> Its a training tool, am not sure how you would attach a bandana to be honest...but are you sure its not on the flat collar worn in combo or just a bandana the dog would typically wear regardless whether or not the dog is using a training aide or not...
> 
> Some people say a picture says a thousand words...these can be misconstrued as often seen here.
> 
> Although...people do have weird and wonderful ideas and plain collars do not cut it for some people so that just maybe it, it might not be 'hiding' the aide but making aesthetically pleasing to the eye...and am sure the many here with fancy collars and harnesses, which are used as part of responsible ownership and training aids too can all be under fire for that.





Lexiedhb said:


> I think Lou means the ones that look like a normal collar on the outside but are pronged.... like this
> View attachment 282048
> 
> 
> Ohh look jazzy collar- and no one can tell its not just a half check....... there is literally no other reason for the covering


Yep, there is those prong covers or whatever they are, and I have also seen pictures from some online people I know with their own dogs having bandanas or similar tied around their necks to disguise their use too. I'm sure the answer as to why these people do that is because they don't want to be judged/condemned for using them, which then makes me think they can't be that comfortable using them in the first place. I mean, if I use a certain training tool I couldn't give two hoots what random strangers think of my decision in doing so if it's right for us 

This is another example









Each to their own I guess. I just find it stupid.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm sorry but thats just F*%$£!^ hideous, i'd like to fit that to the human that uses it, see how they like it, Ar5wipes!!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Pinch collars used to be regularly seen at KC Field Trials for Setters and Pointers.

Although the dogs run collarless, they would wear them getting to and from the Trial; they have even featured on Englsh Setters on the front of The Field magazine.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Going to play a devil's advocate here... but maybe some owners who use prong/ elecric collars just don't want to attract the attention of random do-gooders who feel the need to go over and give a lecture about the photo they have recently seen on PETA website and threaten them with calling the police etc? I have a friend whose dog's flat collar has a black buckle with a red dot on it. For some reason many dog walkers feel the need to go over and have a go at her for using an electric collar on her dog. Poor woman had to throw away the collar because she was sick of it.
I have friends working in police who have dogs wearing prong collars. Some like putting a bandanna on the dogs for the same reason as other people - as a decoration. Others cover up the collar so that the local dog lover would stop coming up to them to teach about the magic of using bits of sausage and cheese. Nothing to do with feelings of 'guilt' or 'shame'. 
I've seen knowledgeable trainers work with prong collars on dogs who pull. After using the collar just for a few sessions they didn't need it anymore. The dogs were less stressed than those you see being constantly pulled on flat collars, haltis or no pull harnesses.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

shadowmare said:


> I have friends working in police who have dogs wearing prong collars..


Interesting as ACPO outlawed the use of both prong and electric collars way back in 2000.........................................................


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> Going to play a devil's advocate here... but maybe some owners who use prong/ elecric collars just don't want to attract the attention of random do-gooders who feel the need to go over and give a lecture about the photo they have recently seen on PETA website and threaten them with calling the police etc? I have a friend whose dog's flat collar has a black buckle with a red dot on it. For some reason many dog walkers feel the need to go over and have a go at her for using an electric collar on her dog. Poor woman had to throw away the collar because she was sick of it.
> I have friends working in police who have dogs wearing prong collars. Some like putting a bandanna on the dogs for the same reason as other people - as a decoration. Others cover up the collar so that the local dog lover would stop coming up to them to teach about the magic of using bits of sausage and cheese. Nothing to do with feelings of 'guilt' or 'shame'.
> I've seen knowledgeable trainers work with prong collars on dogs who pull. After using the collar just for a few sessions they didn't need it anymore. The dogs were less stressed than those you see being constantly pulled on flat collars, haltis or no pull harnesses.


Fair enough. Just not something I'd do, as what I do with my own dog is my business and I wouldn't really care what others think/say.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Interesting as ACPO outlawed the use of both prong and electric collars way back in 2000.........................................................


I'm not talking about UK police SB. I'm talking about my homeland


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> FWIW, I could do a google search right now on flexi leash injuries and get some pretty graphic results.
> Doesn't mean the flexi is an abusive tool or that people who use flexis are abusive. It just means that even with a benign tool like a flexi, idiots will find a way to abuse them, use them incorrectly, and injure dogs in the process.
> 
> Even if you yank the snot out of a dog wearing a prong collar, you're not going to cause that sort of injury. Which of course no one should be doing, I'm just pointing out that pulling hard on a prong isn't going to cause the prong to puncture the skin. Actually the more likely scenario is that the prong will just pop off.
> ...


Not comparable Imo, a flexi is not designed to work by causing pain/ discomfort/ pinch/ be aversive like the prong collar is, that's how it works. The flexi can cause some fairly nasty injuries yes, but its primary purpose is not to cause discomfort


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Fair enough. Just not something I'd do, as what I do with my own dog is my business and I wouldn't really care what others think/say.


We constantly see people on here talking about how tired they are of people judging them and their reactive dogs. At work I constantly work with parents who are being taught by strangers how to deal with their 'misbehaving' (learning difficulties, ASD etc) children.... Strangers can really get to you over the years.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

shadowmare said:


> I'm not talking about UK police SB. I'm talking about my homeland


and yet without these " tools" the uk seems to be able to still produce highly trained police dogs.......interesting


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I think anyone using them should have one put round their neck and then taken for a walk wearing it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Pinch collars used to be regularly seen at KC Field Trials for Setters and Pointers.
> 
> Although the dogs run collarless, they would wear them getting to and from the Trial; they have even featured on Englsh Setters on the front of The Field magazine.


Well that must make it OK  Not. Who cares if they were on the cover of The Field magazine? that is hardly something most of us aspire to.



shadowmare said:


> Going to play a devil's advocate here... but maybe some owners who use prong/ elecric collars just don't want to attract the attention of random do-gooders who feel the need to go over and give a lecture about the photo they have recently seen on PETA website and threaten them with calling the police etc? I have a friend whose dog's flat collar has a black buckle with a red dot on it. For some reason many dog walkers feel the need to go over and have a go at her for using an electric collar on her dog. Poor woman had to throw away the collar because she was sick of it.
> I have friends working in police who have dogs wearing prong collars. Some like putting a bandanna on the dogs for the same reason as other people - as a decoration. Others cover up the collar so that the local dog lover would stop coming up to them to teach about the magic of using bits of sausage and cheese. Nothing to do with feelings of 'guilt' or 'shame'.
> I've seen knowledgeable trainers work with prong collars on dogs who pull. After using the collar just for a few sessions they didn't need it anymore. The dogs were less stressed than those you see being constantly pulled on flat collars, haltis or no pull harnesses.


I get it a fair bit with my boy's tracker collars. It takes seconds to just say "no its not a shock collar its a tracker collar" smile sweetly and go on your way. I'm more than happy to have a random do gooder who cares about using those disgusting devices asking me questions. Sorry but I fail to see how this is any different to the CM jab in the ribs or "gentle kick" that we were all getting so hot under the collar (boom boom) about just recently.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Well that must make it OK  Not. Who cares if they were on the cover of The Field magazine? that is hardly something most of us aspire to.


I posted a factual statement, I did not imply that I thought it must make it OK; Who cares if they were on the cover of the Field Magazine? I guess those who are anti the use of pinch collars?

Whether or not you aspire to be on the cover of any magazine is irrelevant surely?


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## Chantelle90 (Jul 23, 2016)

Never seen these "prong collars" and can't believe that they are legal. My sister does use those "half choke chain" on her Husky are these just as bad?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Well that must make it OK  Not. Who cares if they were on the cover of The Field magazine? that is hardly something most of us aspire to.
> 
> I get it a fair bit with my boy's tracker collars. It takes seconds to just say "no its not a shock collar its a tracker collar" smile sweetly and go on your way. I'm more than happy to have a random do gooder who cares about using those disgusting devices asking me questions. Sorry but I fail to see how this is any different to the CM jab in the ribs or "gentle kick" that we were all getting so hot under the collar (boom boom) about just recently.


I got one of these light up collars for Dex to use in the winter. I have had a couple of people concerned that it's a shock collar, but as soon as I explain that it's the battery pack, they're happy to go on their way. I quite like it, as it means that they care


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Chantelle90 said:


> Never seen these "prong collars" and can't believe that they are legal. My sister does use those "half choke chain" on her Husky are these just as bad?


Do they pull or suddenly jerk if they see a squirrel etc?


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## Chantelle90 (Jul 23, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Do they pull or suddenly jerk if they see a squirrel etc?


She used to pull but not anymore. But I know she can't be let of the lead as her recall is non existent.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> I think anyone using them should have one put round their neck and then taken for a walk wearing it.


I agree 100%



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry but I fail to see how this is any different to the CM jab in the ribs or "gentle kick" that we were all getting so hot under the collar (boom boom) about just recently.


Again, I agree 100%


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Chantelle90 said:


> Never seen these "prong collars" and can't believe that they are legal. My sister does use those "half choke chain" on her Husky are these just as bad?


A half choke/check is generally seen as the safer alternative to a 'full' choke chain as they don't pull as tight. I use one on my youngest dog quite regularly.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Chantelle90 said:


> Never seen these "prong collars" and can't believe that they are legal. My sister does use those "half choke chain" on her Husky are these just as bad?


Pinch collars not illegal in the UK and electric collars are only illegal in Wales, they are not illegal in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland; they are illegal in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, Germany and in some states in Australia.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Not a tool I would use personally but I don't see how people can single out prong collars to chastise above other equipment. There are two pieces of equipment that are used and misused significantly by pet owners that can both potentially be not only aversive but damaging - head collars and slip leads. I do find it ironic that choke chains are considered the work of the devil whereas slip leads are considered a staple, particularly by 'gundog people', when it is EXACTLY the same thing but in rope form versus chain.

Then we have head collars - another 'humane' tool that can cause mental distress when not introduced very slowly and even then, many dogs find them intolerable. Understandable when they are putting constant pressure on one of the most delicate areas of the body. It is rare I see a dog that not only looks completely relaxed in one, but that the head collar itself actually fits correctly. This can cause physical complications not akin to those that are misusing chokers/rope leads/prongs; pressure around the eyes and serious pressure around the head and neck.

So it's all a bit samey samey really........one just looks worse than the other! the key word is misuse.....


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> This got me thinking about Lola, I suspect she would prefer a prong to a head halter, as she is so head shy that if I tried to put a halter on her she'd have the screaming abdabs. But given she loves it when Dex drags her around by her neck, she'd probably quite enjoy a prong collar


Same with Spen, he finds head collars incredibly aversive. And having seen plenty of dogs on prongs I have to say that the prong simply being on doesn't bother them at all the way a head collar seems to bother most dogs even when it's not in use. Not a tool I'm ever planning to use but personally I think head collars can be just as bad, perhaps more so because they're seen as the "humane" option. For Spen I think a prong would actually be more humane.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
U can get precisely the same level of safe, humane control with an all-fabric martingale AKA limited-slip collar, which lacks the chain section of a "half-check" collar. The chain can painfully pinch skin, pull hair out by the roots, etc, when they're caught between the links as they slide back & forth under changing tension.
.
A properly-fitted martingale is at least the width of the dog's cervical vertebra, so that it can't slip between & put pressure on the spinal cord - thus, the skinny tough cords used as "show leads" with built-in martingales are a bad idea, as they can put high pressure over a very narrow area of the neck, & may injure the trachea [underside] or the spinal cord [upper side] when sudden tension is applied - the dog might trip on an uneven surface, or the handler falls while jogging round the show-ring, & unintended injuries to the dog can result.
So the width of a martingale is a function of the dog's size / weight; big dogs need w-i-d-e-r collars than little dogs.
Additionally, the dog's own behavior is a factor - if s/he is a frequent puller, use a wider collar to distribute the pressure.
If s/he is accustomed to walk along at the handler's pace [LLW = Loose-Leash Walking], the width of the dog's vertebra is fine.
.
Fitting the martingale is key to its proper use - U don't want it dangling slackly above the dog's shoulders, it sits on the neck as close to the ears as possible, & lies smooth and snug - with no slack in the fabric ring, where the D-ring is, to which the leash will be clipped.
When U or the dog put tension on the leash, the loop will close - it can only fold in half, no matter how much tension is on the leash, so unless the dog is literally SUSPENDED, they cannot have their airway shut-off. Martingale collars are safe when fitted in this way as tag-collars, even if the dog is off-leash - but not for *hunting*, nor on terrierists who are likely to go to ground, nor on varminty dogs, or if the dog is free-running near livestock fence such as strung wire, wove wire, barbed wire, or similar - paddock-type panel fences or pipe-fencing [which has closed joints] is safe.
.
This is a skinny show-martingale








I chose blue vs the bog-standard black [used for most dogs] or white [seen on white dogs], so U can clearly see the sliders that adjust the loops at wrist & back of neck - the sliders are black. The short band ending in rings on each side goes across the front of the dog's neck. The adjustable-diameter loop behind it goes across the back of the dog's neck, over the spine. U can easily imagine how this string can bury itself in the dog's neck, under tension - stringing the dog up, producing a Hackney gait, & shutting off the airway, or possibly causing injury to the spine if sudden tension is applied.








Stoic dogs who pull, such as bully-breeds or mastiff types, can look like boneless roasts tied as upright cylinders, ready for the oven, in a show-martingale of this type.








___
This smooth Dachshund is wearing a kangaroo-leather martingale, which makes it look as if the dog's head is about to be popped off like Mr Potato-Head. Short-legged dogs have enuf difficulty gaiting in the ring as it is; they don't need to be strung-up, too, or half-strangled by a nervous handler.








.
.
This version protects the trachea somewhat, but not the spine:








Tripping & falling while trotting a dog along in the ring happen often enuf that it's not worth the risk, IMO, to use this type of show-lead, tho they're pretty-much the national standard in the USA fancy.
They're cheap, durable, & one size fits all - what's not to like?...  Well, 'convenient' doesn't equal safe. 
.
.
Snake-chains are even worse - this is a quadruple-thickness snake chain on a Dobe:








That's the post-win pose, on the lawn - imagine the dog with the chain up under their jaw, in the ring. Not comfy, not safe.
.
.
.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> Not comparable Imo, a flexi is not designed to work by causing pain/ discomfort/ pinch/ be aversive like the prong collar is, that's how it works. The flexi can cause some fairly nasty injuries yes, but its primary purpose is not to cause discomfort


I'm not comparing the design or the purpose, I'm comparing injury potential.
A prong has no more (and in some instances less) injury potential than other more "benign" training tools.
You can (if you're so inclined) asphyxiate a dog using a slip lead, as witnessed in a recent thread. You can't cause that sort of damage with a prong because they don't have unlimited tightening. In fact if you're paying close attention in the CM video where he hangs the huskyX Shadow, the dog is originally in a prong collar, which CM removes and uses the leash through the handle as a noose, sorry, 'slip lead'. This set up is how he strangled the poor dog. Something he was not able to do while the dog was on a prong because the prong collar does not allow for strangulation like the slip lead set up he had going.

We freak out more about a prong because it looks worse, yet it's potential to cause injury is less than a "nice" looking slip lead.

And no, I'm not for one minute suggesting that people who use slip leads use them to strangle their dogs. But then nor do people who use prongs use them to embed them in their dog's neck.

What I'm saying is that ALL tools should be used humanely with the dog's best interest in mind and with a proper understanding of what the tool does (and doesn't do).

Reacting emotionally to a tool because of how it looks doesn't help dogs.
Understanding how the tool works and being able to discuss it rationally with someone who might be seriously considering that tool gives you much more of a leg up to be able to help dogs (and their owners) who need it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Labradrk:

... head collars [are] another 'humane' tool that can cause mental distress when not introduced *very slowly*, & even then, many dogs find them intolerable.

Understandable, when *they put constant pressure on one of the body's most-delicate areas*. It's rare that I see a dog that not only looks completely relaxed in one, but that *their head collar is actually fitted correctly*. [Improperly fitted, *headcollars*] *can cause physical complications **akin to** those that are [caused by] misuse of chokes/ rope leads/ prongs*: pressure around the eyes, & serious pressure around the head and neck.

....
/QUOTE
.
.
Sorry, i don't grok these objections.
I made my own dog a headcollar in the 1980s when they weren't commercially available, & he did just fine - Beau was the Dachs X Bassett that i trained as my 1st therapy-pet, he was short-legged & an indiscriminate pig; he'd eat anything remotely edible or that once touched food - getting his HEAD off the ground so that he couldn't vacuum up chicken bones, cig butts, candy wrappers, garbage, etc, was important to his health & safety, & my sanity & checking-account.
I got him at 10-WO from the shelter, & after his 2nd multi-day bout of diarrhea & vomiting in 10-days, this one after consuming a hunk of spoiled hamburger by a Dumpster on leash, I went to the local outdoor-gear shop & whipped up a headcollar of narrow climbing rope with a slider at the back of his head, where the leash clipped to a small loop.
He wore it immediately, it was still warm from the hot-wire cutter - & he did just fine with it.
.
.
That said, i tell clients to introduce it over approx a week's time, first only during meals for a day or 2, then paired with walks but with the leash on the OThER collar or harness - the headcollar is merely worn to associate it with "walks".
Typically they use a front-clipped H-harness during the habituation period, as these dogs need the headcollar to re-direct them: away from oncoming dogs, aside from tempting game [birds, rabbits, deer...], or similar issues of chase / flee / confront / react.
.
it also doesn't "put constant pressure" unless the handler puts a spring-loaded Flexi on it, which is a complete mismatch of tools, & it says so clearly -- on every package.
the mere WEIGHT of a leash on the noseband isn't sufficient to cause discomfort unless the handler puts a hefty leash on a small dog - another mismatch. Headcollars need *less* hardware than neck-collars, so bull-snaps, double-thick nylon leads, etc, are overkill. I can walk a 120# dog on a 3/4 inch wide latigo or veg-tanned leather lead, or a half-inch wide nylon lead, both with ordinary spring-clips.
.
.
The 12 kids who attended my summer day-camp for dog-training ranged in age from 8-YO [a girl] to 11-YO [a boy], & every dog was an untrained adult. I handed out & fitted headcollars on the 1st meeting, gave them written instructions on habituation, & sent them home.
Every dog arrived a week later wearing their headcollars with no issues whatsoever; the youngest dog also happened to be the biggest, a 120# Dane X Lab who was the eldest child's 9-MO family dog. He was an uncontrollable bumptious PITA on a fur-saver choke-chain, while he could be directed with my index finger on a headcollar.
He wasn't shut-down, quashed, unhappy, or anxious about possible "corrections" in his headcollar; his tail was up, his ears were forward, he was engaged & delightfully eager to learn.
The smallest dog was a Chi-cross who weighed under 10#; she wore one, too. The Boxer in the group had no more problems than any other dog wearing his headcollar - in other words, none.
.
If a random group of novice trainers under 12-yrs age with a motley group of family dogs, all adoptees from local shelters [& none of them owned from puphood on] can easily get their dogs to wear a headcollar in 7-days flat, I can't fathom why adults with average intelligence would find it so incredibly difficult, nor why supposedly so "many" dogs find them simply unbearable.
That hasn't been my experience at all.
.
.
The longest it's ever taken a dog to become comfy & habituated in a headcollar, so far, was 2-weeks from initial wearing to use on the leash - with the weight of the leash on their nose-loop, & no pawing, no head-shaking, no bother at all. He was a 2 to 3-YO intact-M foxhound-mix, found running during the annual "dump the trash" season when deer-hound hunters weed their packs.
This happens in VA every autumn, beginning around mid- to late September & continuing into early November; they're the dogs they can't be arsed to feed thru the winter, so they dump them. He was picked up by an ACO, they applied to adopt him, he was desexed, they took him to the vet, treated his heartworm thru 3-weeks of crate confinement, & had a 70# mass of fast-moving, solid bone & stringy muscle who'd never learned to WALK on a leash.
He was super-sweet, loved ppl, but potentially lethal & a royal pain. He'd never worn anything more than a collar [the rub marks were still visible when he was picked up, the collar was gone.] He'd never been on a leash - he'd hit the end like a pile-driver, & rattle the teeth in Ur head loose. 
For those unfamiliar - this is how deer-hunters usually "move" their hounds when they aren't hunting, off leash, running free: they pick up the collar with four fingers under it, like a handle on a milk-can, hold the dog's forefeet off the ground, & frog-march 'em on their hindlegs to the truck / into the vet's / into the roofless 8-ft high chain-link dog-pen / etc.
.
2 weeks later, their "meteor" was LLW on a leash, & their kids could handle him safely. No distressed body-language, no avoidance when the headcollar came out - U could hold it up in the backyard, & he'd gallop over to shove his own face into it - just like a well-trained horse with a bridle.  Easy-peasy.
.
.
.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I'm not comparing the design or the purpose, I'm comparing injury potential.
> A prong has no more (and in some instances less) injury potential than other more "benign" training tools.
> You can (if you're so inclined) asphyxiate a dog using a slip lead, as witnessed in a recent thread. You can't cause that sort of damage with a prong because they don't have unlimited tightening. In fact if you're paying close attention in the CM video where he hangs the huskyX Shadow, the dog is originally in a prong collar, which CM removes and uses the leash through the handle as a noose, sorry, 'slip lead'. This set up is how he strangled the poor dog. Something he was not able to do while the dog was on a prong because the prong collar does not allow for strangulation like the slip lead set up he had going.
> 
> ...


This has nowt to do with any other "tool".....im not saying I agree with the use of slip leads either, but this thread was not about them,so I'm not banging on about the potential harm they could do. I personally would much rather someone had the emotional response of " holy crap that's awful, I would never put one on my dog" to " oh yes I'll give that a go,folk are saying they are on a par with a flexi, cant be that bad can they, I'm a great dog handler"


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> *This has nowt to do with any other "tool"*.....im not saying I agree with the use of slip leads either, but this thread was not about them,so I'm not banging on about the potential harm they could do. I personally would much rather someone had the emotional response of " holy crap that's awful, I would never put one on my dog" to " oh yes I'll give that a go,folk are saying they are on a par with a flexi, cant be that bad can they, I'm a great dog handler"


Yes it does, that is the point! how is the prong collar worse than a rope lead/choke chain? or even a badly fitted head collar on a dog that isn't conditioned to it? it's not. They can ALL be misused and abused and there is not one that is 'worse' than another.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Yes it does, that is the point! how is the prong collar worse than a rope lead/choke chain? or even a badly fitted head collar on a dog that isn't conditioned to it? it's not. They can ALL be misused and abused and there is not one that is 'worse' than another.


I never said it was ........


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> This has nowt to do with any other "tool".....im not saying I agree with the use of slip leads either, but this thread was not about them,so I'm not banging on about the potential harm they could do. I personally would much rather someone had the emotional response of " holy crap that's awful, I would never put one on my dog" to " oh yes I'll give that a go,folk are saying they are on a par with a flexi, cant be that bad can they, I'm a great dog handler"


No, I'm not saying they're on a par with a flexi. I'm saying they're not as dangerous as other tools people use without any thought because the tool doesn't look as scary.

Dogs aren't going to hit the end of a prong at speed and break their neck which is possible with other tools that people don't bat an eye at.
Dogs aren't going to asphyxiate on a prong which is possible with other tools that people don't bat an eye at.

This is not advocating for prongs, it's about advocating for dogs.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

So how about we ban all such tools that tools can use to break their dog's necks or shock their dogs or jab them with prongs? Why are any of them necessary or legal?


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So how about we ban all such tools that tools can use to break their dog's necks or shock their dogs or jab them with prongs? Why are any of them necessary or legal?


Well hell if it were up to me :Angelic people would friggin train their dogs and not need leashes at all unless when required by law or when a miscommunication could be deadly like near livestock or traffic.

But it's not up to me, and we don't all live in a perfect world with perfect dogs and a perfect set-up in which to train them.

So sometimes you need a leash and something to attach it to.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Well hell if it were up to me :Angelic people would friggin train their dogs and not need leashes at all unless when required by law or when a miscommunication could be deadly like near livestock or traffic.
> 
> But it's not up to me, and we don't all live in a perfect world with perfect dogs and a perfect set-up in which to train them.
> 
> So sometimes you need a leash and something to attach it to.


Yeah a leash and something to attach it to like a well fitting collar or harness but no bloody spikes or shocks or strangulation mechanisms  i


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
if U go back to the 1st season of CM/DW, when he had just 20-mins of non-commercial, non-prime-time program, & his wasn't yet a household name, all the dogs are handled on cheap, tough nylon or polyurethane slip-leads, AKA kennel leads -
those things are vicious, they can slice the bejeezus out of Ur hands as well as cut-off the dog's airway under only moderate pressure, such as that produced by an untrained dog being handled in a shelter, or a scared dog being moved by a vet-tech at the clinic. Bad idea, crappy tool. 
.
They cost about 49-cents apiece when bought in bulk - if my vet used one on MY dog, i'd have her or his own head off at the shoulders, metaphorically speaking. They're dangerous to the dog, hazardous for the handler, & unsafe as a management tool - the dog can lunge just once, U get sliced & drop the lead, & there goes the dog...
I hate 'em. Worst tool ever invented.
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An inch-wide flat nylon or leather leash used as a slip-lead, OTOH, is safe for one's hands, safe for the dog, & provides good control with minimal risk of strangling - U'd have to suspend the dog's forehand, to get it that tight. I've used these to slip over the heads of roaming dogs to safely catch them for the ACC officer.
Thumb-thick gundog slip-leads, with stops at both sides of the loop, are also pretty safe.
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A 3-strand cotton horse lead can be converted for dog-handling by parting the strands & clipping the spring-clip to the single-strand to make a small loop that fits the neck, too small to slide over the back-skull. They're comfortable for hands, & easy on the dog's neck, too. Their sole defect is the lack of a wrist-loop - if U like, U can weave the rope-end into the rope, to make one.
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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> No, I'm not saying they're on a par with a flexi. I'm saying they're not as dangerous as other tools people use without any thought because the tool doesn't look as scary.
> 
> Dogs aren't going to hit the end of a prong at speed and break their neck which is possible with other tools that people don't bat an eye at.
> Dogs aren't going to asphyxiate on a prong which is possible with other tools that people don't bat an eye at.
> ...


people, well I do bat an eyelid ........ The op wasn't asking about slip leads, choke chains, flexis attached to collars, or ill fitting head collars tho was my point...... But I guess all related to shite management


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

Wow a lot of replies since this morning. I personally, do not like the idea of causing discomfort and/or possible pain to stop a dog from pulling. I have never experienced a strong puller on the lead but I would much rather train them not to pull as apposed to using these devices.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yeah a leash and something to attach it to like a well fitting collar or harness but no bloody spikes or shocks or strangulation mechanisms  i


Wouldn't that be lovely?

Unfortunately though it seems to be natural for many to jump to quick fix options. I think a lot of it boils down to lack of understanding for the motivation of certain behaviours. Take my mum who is not particularly dog savvy despite always having had dogs. Hand her an on lead reactive dog and that dog is automatically "badly behaved". It wouldn't occur to her that dog may be fear reactive, or a frustrated greeter, or whatever, the underlying cause wouldn't matter - it's just "badly behaved" at that moment. And what is the quickest way to correct a "bad behaviour"? Probably to stick some sort of device on the dog that makes it uncomfortable to suppress said "bad behaviour" rather than work on behavioural modification or other management strategies.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So how about we ban all such tools that tools can use to break their dog's necks or shock their dogs or jab them with prongs? Why are any of them necessary or legal?


This is likely not the kind of legislation our esteemed and trusted MPs are thinking about. I am open to correction in my understanding because I frequently get this wrong. I am against anything which is +P unless on safety grounds.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Chantelle90 said:


> Never seen these "prong collars" and can't believe that they are legal. My sister does use those "half choke chain" on her Husky are these just as bad?


Half checks are relatively harmless but of course like all collars pressure is around the neck when they pull.

My RC has a half check as she just can't 'handle' a harness. My Border Collie has a harness. I don't even own a collar for her.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Quite honestly, having a dog who pulls like a steam train and with 4 and a half years work making no real difference to the behaviour I can see why some turn to things like prongs. Because a front clip harness doesn't really cut it, it helps but it doesn't stop the pulling. And Spen will NOT tolerate a head collar. In some ways I do wonder whether it's perhaps kinder to teach them to walk nicely using an aversive than to just let them go on pulling (which can't be comfortable surely?) for years on end. It's not something I'm going to do, it feels wrong to hurt my dog for my failure to teach him what I want, but I do wonder at times when he's hauling away on he lead.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yeah a leash and something to attach it to like a well fitting collar or harness but no bloody spikes or shocks or strangulation mechanisms  i


A friend of mine has a rescue great dane, double merle who is deaf and blind. What she has accomplished with this dog is absolutely mind boggling as far as how much they are able to communicate with each other. Part of his training has included a shock collar. Yep, the evil shock. 
Modern shock collars have minuscule settings, and using the lowest settings he has been taught several cues that help him live as normal a life as possible with a dog who has the disabilities he does.

It's not always as clear cut as we would like for it to be.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

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No shock, no prongs, no choke - deaf/blind dogs.
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D/B dog dances - she's not competition-level, but she has a blast...




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D/B dog learns auto-sit [H-harness & rewards]




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senior D/B dog learning sit & down




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7-YO D/B Aussie, gotcha as a pup from breeder intending to euth her;
personal dog of a trainer - Sit, Down, Come, 'Free' on cue




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D/B dog "Keller" in agility [leash guidance + hand]




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"What's a double-merle?"




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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yeah a leash and something to attach it to like a well fitting collar or harness but no bloody spikes or shocks or strangulation mechanisms  i


An ordinary well fitting flat collar puts pressure on the trachea when a dog is pulling. A check collar of any sort puts and even pressure round the neck so actually is going to do less damage - though a dog should never actually pull in a check collar, it should be used to check the pulling.



Sarah1983 said:


> Quite honestly, having a dog who pulls like a steam train and with 4 and a half years work making no real difference to the behaviour I can see why some turn to things like prongs. Because a front clip harness doesn't really cut it, it helps but it doesn't stop the pulling. And Spen will NOT tolerate a head collar. In some ways I do wonder whether it's perhaps kinder to teach them to walk nicely using an aversive than to just let them go on pulling (which can't be comfortable surely?) for years on end. It's not something I'm going to do, it feels wrong to hurt my dog for my failure to teach him what I want, but I do wonder at times when he's hauling away on he lead.


I cannot imagine allowing a dog to pull on a lead for years and years when there is a good chance that a couple of short sessions using an aversive will save both dog and handler form years of discomfort. What on earth is wrong with it. If a puppy is checked when it first starts going on the lead it will seldom ever pull. Once it has been allowed to pull it will do it more and more as it has no idea that it is causing the discomfort it is feeling.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Quite honestly, having a dog who pulls like a steam train and with 4 and a half years work making no real difference to the behaviour I can see why some turn to things like prongs. Because a front clip harness doesn't really cut it, it helps but it doesn't stop the pulling. And Spen will NOT tolerate a head collar. In some ways I do wonder whether it's perhaps kinder to teach them to walk nicely using an aversive than to just let them go on pulling (which can't be comfortable surely?) for years on end. It's not something I'm going to do, it feels wrong to hurt my dog for my failure to teach him what I want, but I do wonder at times when he's hauling away on he lead.


I agree, Roxy HATED her head collar with a passion & I think (in retrospect) it would actually have been kinder to her to use a pinch collar for a few sessions than to have battled on with the head collar.

I am not B&W on alot of things, for me it's seeing what sort of dog, the behaviour, how tools are used, how competent the handler is, etc I honestly don't believe that one size fit all. I attend an IPO club & about 50% of people use pinch collars (I don't) & I honestly do not see any of the dogs react in such a way to them as Roxy did with her head collar (& no they are not shut down!) .... but I don't believe that everyone there needs to use one (or is competent enough in their handling to use them) but then that's nothing to do with me really. But I think, for some, it's what they've done before so they don't change.

As for physical damage I wonder how much damage it would do to keep yanking on a lead attached to a flat collar (or headcollar) as opposed to a pinch .... not sure but I can't imagine that sharp yanks would do much good to a neck/spine


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree, Roxy HATED her head collar with a passion & I think (in retrospect) it would actually have been kinder to her to use a pinch collar for a few sessions then to have battled on with the head collar.
> 
> I am not B&W on alot of things, for me it's seeing what sort of dog, the behaviour, how tools are used, how competent the handler is, etc I honestly don't believe that one size fit all. I attend an IPO club & about 50% of people use pinch collars (I don't) & I honestly do not see any of the dogs react in such a way to them as Roxy did with her head collar (& no they are not shut down!) .... but I don't believe that everyone there needs to use one (or is competent enough in their handling to use them but nothing to do with me) but I think it's what they've done before so they don't change.
> 
> As for physical damage I wonder how much damage it would do to keep yanking on a lead attached to a flat collar (or headcollar) as opposed to a pinch .... not sure but I can't imagine that sharp yanks would do much good to a neck/spine


Yes, I've seen lots of dogs on prongs and they don't freak out the way most do on a head collar. I'm also torn on the whole desensitizing a dog to something they clearly find aversive so we can us it while saying it's not aversive and is the kinder option. Rupert accepted a head collar immediately, no problems, no fuss, only time he tried to get it off was on the bus and I have no idea why it was such an issue on the bus but never anywhere else lol. But most dogs do need desensitizing to it. The dogs I've seen on prongs are far from shut down. As I say, not something I'm choosing to use but at the end of the day it's the DOG who decides what's aversive, not us.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Quote, Cleo38:
...
_I attend *an IPO club,* & *about 50% of people [there] use prong collars * ... I honestly do not see any of the dogs [there] react ... to [a prong-collar] as Roxy did to her headcollar, & no, *they are not shut down!* _

/Quote
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As it's already been pointed out several times, i'll reiterate:
- stoic dogs tend to ignore prong-collars; it's rather obvious that sensitive poetic types, aspiring interior-decorators, or off-Broadway performers wouldn't make it as IPO candidates. IPO contenders are born of other IPO contenders; just like hunting lines, show lines, herding-competition, or any other traditional competing venue in dog-sports, parentage matters.
_[Freestyle, HTM, disc-dog, etc, are conversely more an individual's skill-set, & nobody is much interested in who sired or whelped whom.]_
_- _IPO breeds are tough-minded & difficult to discourage, but also attuned to their handlers.
Unlike LGDs, they aren't bred to make their own choices in solitary; they're bred for biddable response, so despite their stoic reaction to physical pain, they do want to work *with* someone - they want partnership. Like the vast majority of dogs [& very different from wolves], IPO breeds like to know that they've done what we want them to do.
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Taken together, those 2 traits mean a prong isn't going to give an IPO candidate the screaming meemies.
OTOH, because they're pretty dam*ed indifferent to pain unless it's hefty or prolonged, a prong isn't all that effective on IPO candidates, either - & Pos-R training of IPO contenders is, unsurprisingly, just as amazingly effective as it is when used while training police-K9s, military & tactical dogs, personal-protection & security-k9s, & similar --- all jobs that traditionally, *just like IPO - or for that matter, competition obedience *- once used aversive training // avoidance training, on every single dog.
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Quote, Cleo38:

_.... but I don't believe that everyone there needs to use (a prong collar), nor is [everyone] competent enough in their handling to use them ... I think [using a prong] what they've done before, so they don't change._
/Quote
_._
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Dog-training has a powerful component of 'tradition' - aversive / avoidance training has been a well-documented human pattern at least since the ancient Greeks, but reward-based training has been around at least as long - see the treatise on horse-training for military applications based on kindness, written by Xenophon.
Reward-based training had brief periods of popularity, such as the 1890 / 1930 period of vaudeville & small circuses around the world, when everything from novelty dog acts & cat acts to elephants & horses, ponies & parrots, were trained using rewards; but avoidance-training always came back as the dominant meme, with outliers using reward-training & bog-standard training taking various forms of "Do it, or else..."
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Personally, I learned to train using a choke-chain that had leather tabs to convert it from a running choke to a fixed collar; it was required for my 4-H training class, & my puppy wore it in class & during every training session outside of class. I was 10-YO, & my mentor was a GSD-breeder & an excellent, very fair, very humane trainer - for her time.
Mrs Arnold had gone to Germany after WW-2 & selected her foundation stock there; her dogs were beautiful, healthy, & had incredible temperaments. She praised dogs many-more times than she ever scolded, & her collar corrections were brief, pointed, & effective. Her dogs *adored* the chance to work - one night, as we marched up & down the field in block form, practicing heeling, her aging great-granddam snuck up & shadowed the up-&-coming young dog, Lance, on her leash. All of us saw her; no one said a thing, & we all struggled to keep straight faces as off-leash Duchess paced her owner, outside Lance's shoulder, while Mrs Arnold, her eyes on the class, used the leash to feel her dog's movement.
Inevitably, Lance made a mistake - he didn't turn left quickly enuf when she turned, & was bumped. Mrs Arnold popped the collar lightly, but his grandmother went for him - a brief snarl & a snap at his face, & he went to the ground, belly-up, appeasing. Poor Lance didn't know what to do, & Mrs Arnold was astonished - how had Duchess gotten there?... the class broke up, she'd shadowed her handler & her rival for more than 5-minutes, unseen & mirror-perfect, off leash.
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I wanted to use a method that didn't include choke-chains; it was obvious to me that we didn't 'need' them, they were just handy. I began using flat-collars or martingales on all dogs, caught them doing things right, & built from there. By the time I was 18 & training client's dogs, I'd scrapped choke-chains. When I began working with problem behaviors, later, even the "bad" dogs didn't need aversive collars - B-Mod went faster without them.
When I learned about marker training, it was with parrots - not dogs. U can't put a choke-chain on a psittacine, so other methods were imperative. Turns out marker training works with any species. 
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Fast-forward to the present.
We now know an incredible amount about what dogs can learn, & how they learn; there's no justification for using aversive tools, or avoidance training - which is what a prong collar or shock collar or even a choke / slip collar is: Avoiding the negative feedback from the collar _["Wrong answer!"...] _is the core-concept of the process.
Dogs aren't stoopid; they are, in fact, better at reading postural clues, body language, microexpressions of our faces, & our emotional states or intentions, than our closest living relatives, chimpanzees - who at least are primates. Dogs haven't shared a common ancestor with humans in millennia.
Dogs *have* however, co-evolved with humans; we've lived together for so long that puppies are born pre-wired to respond to humans as if they were conspecifics. They are - so far - the only other species that reads human faces visually left to right - as humans do, because it provides more emotional data. Pups as young as 8-WO can use a human's pointing finger to find something; they recognize it as a communicative gesture, while chimps must be specifically *taught* to understand that.
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Tradition is, in many ways & in many places, a Good Thing; I do my best to promote & continue traditional breeds of domestic animals, traditional seeds of domestic plants, various handcrafts & traditional household or farming tools, herbal lore, healthy living via traditional foods; I think the accelerating loss of many human languages in indigenous cultures is heartbreaking, & the loss of local knowledge of plants & their uses is disastrous.
But the day that prong-collars become museum displays, I'll be delighted. We don't need them; dogs don't need them, either. They are relics of the centuries when we DIDN'T know how dogs learned, or how best to teach them - & now, we do.
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Tradition is just sheer laziness, IMO, when it's an excuse - not a reason - to use a collar specifically designed to cause pain, on the species we've had as our closest friend, protector, & helpmate for hundreds of thousands of years. Supposedly, humans have large, complex, advanced brains - but using pain-inflicting avoidance training doesn't prove that vaunted brain is anything but a calorie-sucking waste of bodily resources.
Dogs have brains, too. And IME, they enjoy using them - just like every other species that has one. 
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I've had avoidance-training professionals, deeply wedded to their shock-collars ['it's so low, they can barely FEEL it...'] & prong-collars, tell me they're more efficient - "the dogs learn faster". No, actually, they don't - & they don't retain what they learn as long, either.
We've got multiple studies with clear data to confound those statements as wishful thinking, not fact. So when it comes right down to nitty-gritty reality, it's only 'tradition' that keeps choke-chains, infinite-slip collars, prong collars, & shock-collars being manufactured, sold, & used on dogs.
We no longer allow parents to "break" their toddlers of reaching for things - which WAS tradition & accepted practice, well-into the 1800s. We no longer make the sort of spoons that, used left-handed, dump all the food onto the plate, the child, or the floor, to "teach" left-handed children that right-handed is the only way to live. We don't force homosexual persons to take drugs to change their sexual selves. But we still yank & zap our dogs, 'traditionally'.
One of these decades, or praps centuries, we'll grow-up, as a species. I probly won't live to see the day. Hopefully, I'll celebrate it - wherever I am.
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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> No shock, no prongs, no choke - deaf/blind dogs.
> .
> ...


Your googling abilities are obvious. 
But until you too rescue a deaf and blind dog and put the work in yourself in to doing the best you can for a dog with those kinds of disabilities, your opinion will not sway me to judge a personal friend who I know how much time and effort she has put in to her dogs. Effort noted though


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Sarah1983

... I'm also torn on the whole "desensitizing a dog" to *something they clearly find aversive* so we can use [a headcollar] while saying it's not aversive and is the kinder option. 
Rupert accepted a head collar immediately, no problems, no fuss... But most dogs do need desensitizing...

/QUOTE
.
I don't suggest a headcollar for every dog I work with; since I began working solely with problem behaviors / B-Mod in 1985, I'd guesstimate that maybe 1 dog in 10 or fewer needed a headcollar, as they were used to safely control dogs who had a past history of serious aggro [bites or fights], long-term reactivity [habitual lunging & barking], or predatory behavior [chasing & catching, sometimes injuring, sometimes killing].
Most of my client's dogs wore martingale collars, & when I worked with the dogs myself, I used a Mrs Bones martingale for safety - solid sand-cast brass hardware, no bent D-rings to fail, no cheap parts.
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I didn't habituate the dogs & associate the collars with Good Things BEFORE they were ever used with a leash clipped to them, "because all the dogs hated the headcollars". I pre-conditioned them to the headcollar to AVOID any possible potential for disliking it.
Just as I do when I take a dog on a plane or a train, we don't get into the plane until after they've been to the airport, seen planes taxi & take off, hear the incredible noise, & are utterly relaxed about sounds, sights, crowds, etc.
I don't get on the plane with the dog & then discover that they're claustrophobic & won't lie down under an overhead seat, to conserve floor space. Insofar as it's possible, we go thru every imaginable scenario & sensation BEFORE the real deal, & make it all happy, everyday, & ho-hum. I like dogs to be frankly bored when traveling - so relaxed, they doze off.
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Headcollars are no different - i don't give the dog the opportunity to think, 'wow, I don't like this...' I go out of my way to make the 1st meeting pleasurable, by teaching the dog to 1st look at it, then approach it freely, then touch it, then to put THEIR face into the nose-loop while I hold it open, then to stand with their nose in the loop while I buckle it & take it off immediately... etc, etc, etc, all with rewards.
I do the same thing with box-muzzles; dogs who need them, get introduced with the muzzle as a treat-basket - every time they interact, they're rewarded. Look at it, step toward it, sniff it, touch it - click, click, click. [Personally, I think every dog should have a properly-fitted, pre-conditioned box-muzzle of their own, just in case. The day U need it, it's too doggone late to do any conditioning. And any day might be the day U need it.]
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The primary reason that dogs object to headcollars is the nose-loop resting on their faces - it feels weird. But if U've never seen an adult dog over-react to a collar worn on their NECK for the 1st time, U'd know that headcollars aren't any more an invention of the Devil than neck-collars, to a dog who's completely unfamiliar with the sensation of something around their neck. They freak - some act like rodeo bulls, leaping & sunfishing; others drop & roll or dig at it, some freeze in panic, some try to outrun it.
Is all that drama necessary, for a dog who's just come off the street or been roaming feral? - H***, no.
But I know plenty of trainers who just shrug & think the dog's gotta get used to it, anyway, so just put it on & let 'em get over it.
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The last step, putting the LEASH on the headcollar, is where many ppl screw up; they use the same oversize hardware they used on the dog's neck collar, which in the case of a big dog who was a habitual puller, might be an inch-&-a-half wide, double-thick, 6-ft long nylon leash with a bull-snap. The bl**dy thing weighs 2#, easy, off the dog. Hang it on their nose, & it's not going to be a happy event.
So do the not-so-obvious, & get a lightweight leash - U don't need heavy artillery with a headcollar, a single-ply 6-ft lead with an ordinary spring-clip is perfectly adequate. I can safely handle a 120# dog on a 3/4-inch latigo or harness leather lead, clipped to a headcollar; usually that's for dogs one-fourth that size.
Headcollars put the dog's torso & forehand out of action; their leverage is gone, the body mechanics have changed, & the balance of power is now tipped to the handler - who can *gently & easily *control or guide a dog without forceful yanking or a powerful upper-body.
If U're a petite handler, or a disabled person, a headcollar is the best invention since sliced bread. Self-training a service dog is hard-enuf if U're able-bodied; if U're disabled, it's an enormous challenge, & the dog's own strength, speed of reflexes, etc, mean the task is stacked - not in Ur favor.
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The entire point of having EVERY CHILD handle their dog on a headcollar in my summer-camp class was to make the dogs safely & easily controllable, with minimal force exerted on the dogs, & minimal strength needed by the kids. It's leveling the playing field. When it comes to athleticism, dogs have it all over humans; no human can outrun a dog or even most puppies, they're far-more agile, have better stability, & 4-wheel drive with cleats.
Human walking is a series of controlled falls; dogs are quadrupeds with a stable base. Even 3-legged, they're advantaged.
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QUOTE, cont'd:

...at the end of the day it's the DOG who decides what's aversive, not us.

/QUOTE
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Absolutely! - but if I live in a high-rise apt, letting my dog have their 1st experience of riding in an express elevator make them nauseous is pretty dam*ed stoopid, on my part. 
Dogs have to live in a human environment; it's our homes, farms, cities, towns, & motorways, our transit systems, our buses, ferries, trains, planes, cars, construction zones, & parks. We need to *think *before mindlessly & carelessly exposing a dog or pup to anything that s/he will possibly need to live with or experience, later, & give them a bad initial encounter.
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If we let random strangers pinch our puppies or scruff them casually, how do U think the pups will react the 1st time the vet goes to handle them on the exam table?... Depending on the pup, s/he will flinch, quail, bite, duck, or resist.
We deliberately introduce friendly strangers who do NOT look like, smell like, sound like, or act like 'us' - so that pups have a broad, deep sample of normal humans, & know that novelty is OK. This is all pre-conditioning, & we all do it pro-actively - if we have a clue about puppy-raising.
Pre-conditioning isn't a crime, nor is it cheating; it's sensible & necessary, as dogs live in our world, not we in theirs.
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It's perfectly OK for a dog to choose vanilla over strawberry, or which toy they want, or when to toilet. It's not OK for a dog to be mizrable living a block from the subway, reacting to the vibration & the subsonic rumble of every train.
Preferences are fine; choices are good. Prejudices are not, & preventable phobias or unhappiness caused by everyday stimuli are, IMO, the direct fault of the owner, who either failed to introduce the stimulus properly - with happy associations - or failed to re-train their adoptee with B-Mod - or hire someone else to do it.
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Dogs live with a lot of stuff they'd rather not; the ear-piercing whine of an electronic alarm beside the bed is probably in the Top-5 most hated sounds, for most dogs. But they deal - because they love us. The least we can do is make it easier, by habituating them to the things they will need to live with.
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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, ouesi:

Your googling abilities are obvious.
But until you too rescue a deaf and blind dog and put the work in yourself in to doing the best you can for a dog with those kinds of disabilities, your opinion will not sway me to judge a personal friend who I know how much time and effort she has put in to her dogs. Effort noted though 

/QUOTE
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respectfully & politely - fork off, Ouesi. 
I've trained deaf dogs, & i've trained blind dogs; I've even trained a lethal white, & tho deaf, he had *some * vision, altho on sunny days, it was very little.
I've yet to train a deaf, totally-blind dog - that's true. OTOH, it's clearly possible to train a D/B dog without using an aversive collar, including low-level shock - which was my point, not "judging" Ur personal friend, whom I don't know & expressed no opinion of whatever. I simply offered an alternative.
U choosing to see it as a critical attack is entirely Ur choice.
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For the general reader:
Even 10-years ago, many D/B dogs were euthanized automatically, as they were thought to be serious bite-risks. Now, there are entire rescue organizations who specialize in D/B dogs. Times change; accepted practice changes.
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if i ever get the chance to train a D/B dog, i'll be sure to post it on PF-uk - assuming the forum still exists, we aren't using telepathy in place of the Web, & lethal-white or merle:merle breeding hasn't been eliminated by extirpating dogs & replacing them with k9-robots.  Ya never know...
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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> respectfully & politely - fork off, Ouesi.


Likewise  
Your posts are exhausting and you refuse to accept anyone else's experiences or points of view.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> it's clearly possible to train a D/B dog without using an aversive collar


It is also clear that a D/B dog doesn't necessarily see a shock collar (on low settings or vibrate) as an aversive collar.
Just because a human sees something as aversive, it doesn't mean the dog will too


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Likewise
> Your posts are exhausting and you refuse to accept anyone else's experiences or points of view.


I cant read them, they are just too much. At least it saves me having to comment on them. Pity there is not a rule on colour and length and abbreviations as I am sure sometimes the posts may be of interest to me but I as yet have to read one.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> I've trained deaf dogs, & i've trained blind dogs


So what!

I once married a dog that was both blind and deaf.

Well, she must have been blind for a start because when I was at home she never ever saw me.
And she was definitely deaf because after I caught her shagging the owner of the dog next door, I told her I intended to divorce the 81tch, yet when I presented her with the relevant papers she asked, 'What's these for?'


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> It is also clear that a D/B dog doesn't necessarily see a shock collar (on low settings or vibrate) as an aversive collar.
> Just because a human sees something as aversive, it doesn't mean the dog will too


It's only clear if you're willing to open your mind to other points of view, or even the dog's perspective, which as I said, LFL does not appear willing to do...



Blitz said:


> I cant read them, they are just too much. At least it saves me having to comment on them. Pity there is not a rule on colour and length and abbreviations as I am sure sometimes the posts may be of interest to me but I as yet have to read one.


I shows a lack of regard for the reader who has to wade through excessive jargon and abbreviations and try to make some sense of the post.

The irony of course is that as dog trainers, the goal is to be clear and concise in how we communicate with our dogs, and we try not to put them in a situation where we have to guess at what we're saying.

To me the best trainers are also good with people too  Good people skills and good dog skills tend to go hand in hand IME....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, ouesi:

...
Your posts are exhausting and *you refuse to accept anyone else's experiences or points of view*.

/QUOTE
.
Question:
Does my "refusing to accept anyone else's" POV or experience apply to the vast majority of times, when we actually agree, as below?...
.
.
QUOTE, leashedForLife:
....
Please note that to cause that damage, the collar sat in ONE PLACE on the dog's skin, unmoving, for a very long time.... 
The necrotic skin surrounding each hole in the lower set of punctures is a clear telltale...
/QUOTE
.
.
...or do i morph into an opinionated ignoramus only when we, rarely, disagree?
I haven't tallied it, but i'd guesstimate that in 90% or more of our posts, we agree.
.
.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Likewise
> Your posts are exhausting and you refuse to accept anyone else's experiences or points of view.


If you're not careful young lady, you'll find yourself on the naughty step just as I did.

Won't that be a fun, one-sided world


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, ouesi:
> 
> ...
> Your posts are exhausting and *you refuse to accept anyone else's experiences or points of view*.
> ...


Honestly I usually skim your posts, as I said, they're exhausting to wade through. I'm not trying to be hurtful, but they just are. You've been asked nicely many times to abbreviate less, use the quote function properly, not be quite so jargon-y etc., but it's your world and everyone has to adapt to you I guess.

And yes, we are often on the same page. That doesn't change the fact that whenever someone isn't on the same page as you they get a forceful lecture at best, usually more than that.

I think I'm safe in saying that while I often don't agree with many posters, I try (not always successfully but I try) to be gracious about it, and at least treat the person with respect as an equally intelligent human being who just happens to have a different point of view than mine.

Listen, this is a prong thread. You hate prongs, see no use for them, got it. I don't.
Two people can look at the exact same information and come to equally valid though different conclusions. It happens all the time.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

Zaros said:


> If you're not careful young lady, you'll find yourself on the naughty step just as I did.
> 
> Won't that be a fun, one-sided world


Meh, I stay camped out on the naughty step. It's like home


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Ouesi,
I don't "hate" prongs - i think they're outdated & unnecessary, which is quite different. Anymore than I "hate" Ur friend & fellow-trainer, who used a shock-collar to train a D/B dog. Why put emotive labels on factual statements?
.
Posting U-Tube clips of various pro- & amateur trainers working with D/B dogs without aversive collars isn't hateful or disrespectful - it presents another option. While what any person uses is up to them, that doesn't mean onlookers aren't allowed an opinion about their choice.
.
SitMeansS*it trainers apparently can't teach an 8-WO puppy to sit or down without a shock-collar; that alone, IMO, says worlds about their skills & ability, or lack of it. And yes - that's absolutely a judgement on my part. 
.
.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, ouesi:
> 
> Your googling abilities are obvious.
> But until you too rescue a deaf and blind dog and put the work in yourself in to doing the best you can for a dog with those kinds of disabilities, your opinion will not sway me to judge a personal friend who I know how much time and effort she has put in to her dogs. Effort noted though
> ...


Who is "the general reader"?

Anyone who isn't as exalted as you?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Who is "the general reader"?
> 
> Anyone who isn't as exalted as you?


Us mate, the "hoi polloi", "plebs", we "proles"


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Us mate, the "hoi polloi", "plebs", we "proles"


Gotcha mate.

Us Chavs then, innit.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Sweety,:

Who is "the general reader"?

Anyone who isn't as exalted as you?

/QUOTE
.
.
Sweety, that is *not* a sweet remark. It's fairly obvious that the 1st part is directed specifically to Ouesi, as her name is on it; the rest of my comment is to any other reader.
.
.
.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> Ouesi,
> I don't "hate" prongs - i think they're outdated & unnecessary, which is quite different. Anymore than I "hate" Ur friend & fellow-trainer, who used a shock-collar to train a D/B dog. Why put emotive labels on factual statements?
> .
> ...


What the hell does the franchise SMS have to do with any of our conversation?

Fair enough if your intent at posting YouTube (see how I did that without abbreviating the you part?) clips of deaf/blind dog training was to present another option. 
I shared about my friend and how she has trained her dog in the same spirit. To present another view of shock collars and how a competent trainer might choose it as a viable option to use in a humane manner.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Smokeybear:

Us mate, the "hoi polloi", "plebs", we "proles" 

/QUOTE
.
.
Smokey,
we've got members from every shade of the spectrum -- highly-experienced pros, to first-pup novices.
I'm sure U know I've posted in many threads to try to help novice owners, or help experienced owners with a dog who had a novel, worrying issue - because so have U.
I haven't talked down to U, as an experienced & knowledgeable trainer & handler, nor have I treated novices as if they were incapable of learning.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Smokeybear:
> 
> Us mate, the "hoi polloi", "plebs", we "proles"
> 
> ...


Haven't you?...i beg to differ...

Have seen many innocent threads when you have taken them off track...spoken to the owner like they haven't a clue with your so called vast knowledge...when there is no need!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Haven't you?...i beg to differ...
> 
> Have seen many innocent threads when you have taken them off track...spoken to the owner like they haven't a clue with your so called vast knowledge...when there is no need!


And she's been doing it since 2009.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Zaros said:


> And she's been doing it since 2009.


Noooooo....

So how many nice members have left due to being purpled bamboozled then???


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Noooooo....
> 
> So how many nice members have left due to being purpled bamboozled then???


I really wouldn't like to imagine. But I should think your guess is every bit as good and reliable as mine.

My initiation into the forum was conducted by Leashed and you know what, she taught me everything I never ever knew about myself.:Shamefullyembarrased
Things such as how ignorant and uneducated I was. Evidenced by her infuriating insistence to correct my grammar.:Wacky

I've been terminally ashamed of myself ever since


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2016)

@leashedForLife
The quote function: Highlight the text you wish to quote and a small box with "quote" and "reply" should show up. Select "reply" to quote this portion, select "quote" if you have further posts you wish to quote, then you will choose "insert quotes" at the bottom left of the reply box.

As for the abbreviations, please understand that when you type U instead of you, and all the other abbreviations you use, it's jarring to the reader. Like, uncomfortably disrupts the flow of what you're trying to read because you have to stop, figure out the abbreviation, regain the train of thought in the sentence, and continue reading. It's very taxing on the reader.

Dare I say it? It's aversive. Uncomfortable. Not fun.

For someone so adamant about not being aversive to animals, you don't seem to extend that same inclination towards animals of the human variety. 
By refusing to abide by normal language conventions you essentially force the reader to adjust to you, no matter how uncomfortable it might be to the reader. Isn't that the whole notion you're supposedly arguing against with aversive tools?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

lullabydream said:


> Noooooo....
> 
> So how many nice members have left due to being purpled bamboozled then???


If you can't blind them with your brilliance baffle them with your.... erm.... bright purple type?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
U want me to waste time explaining off-topic personal stuff? - fine; just remember, U asked for it. 
.
English - the language we use on this forum - lacks a formal 'thou' or 'you', for persons with whom we aren't really acquainted -- such as other forum-members, whom we've never met in the flesh, & speaking for myself, am not likely to; i don't have money for travel, overseas or even domestically.
German [Sie], Spanish [Usted], & many other languages have a formal 'you'. My version of it is a capitalized U. It's simple, short, & functional.
.
As for the text color, that, too, is functional. 
From 2009 to 4/2015 my posts were in default-color & size, except for posters, or other special notice; when Mark had his brilliant flash of inspiration & altered the forum in April-2015 [he'd say 'improved'], the default text became light taupe in teeny-weeny typeface, on an ash-white background; low contrast, hard to read, & a PITA, frankly.
Beige on pale-grey in itty-bitty type sucks. // Several of us tried different colors & text sizes; this one got more approval than the others i tried, so i kept it. @Lurcherlad may recall voting for the 5-point in purple, at the time.
.
Multiple complaints about the small text, pale color, difficulty reading, etc, are on the "new or old forum" poll started by RowdyRabbit, Apr-22, 2015, especially pages 5 & 6.
here's my post on visual problems I had with the new skin - & i wasn't alone in them:
The forum... NEW OR OLD?
.
I'll also note @JANICE199 posted in bold-face purple text long before i joined [2009] - i've yet to see anyone b*tch about their choice of color or typeface, or question why, so i'm not sure why my using it to make reading easier is so problematic.
.
And of course, U can always put me on 'ignore'.  Toujours gai, it's almost midnite, & tomorrow's a working day... schlaf gut.
.
.
.


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> U want me to waste time explaining off-topic personal stuff? - fine; just remember, U asked for it.
> .
> English - the language we use on this forum - lacks a formal 'thou' or 'you', for persons with whom we aren't really acquainted -- such as other forum-members, whom we've never met in the flesh, & speaking for myself, am not likely to; i don't have money for travel, overseas or even domestically.
> ...


To be fair leashedforlife for someone who has a lot of knowledge and experience and wants people to take their advice on board the typing/grammar in all of your posts is horrendous. I am in no way a grammar nazi, I can just about string a paragraph together.

Most of the time I scroll quickly past your posts or I lose concentration after about the first sentence and don't even take in what you've said. Like with this post I quoted I couldn't even read it all.

Not being mean, more like constructive criticism because I do think you genuinely have some good advice and I always see you replying to stuff on here but I dont read or read a couple of sentences.... maybe have a think about it as this forum and contributing to it obviously means a lot to you.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> English - the language we use on this forum - lacks a formal 'thou' or 'you', for persons with whom we aren't really acquainted -- such as other forum-members, whom we've never met in the flesh, & speaking for myself, am not likely to; i don't have money for travel, overseas or even domestically.
> German [Sie], Spanish [Usted], & many other languages have a formal 'you'. My version of it is a capitalized U. It's simple, short, & functional.


Uh... Okay...
Two things. One, "you" is the formal address in English. "Thou" was the informal way of addressing someone and has fallen out of use as the language evolved.
In other words, you would still be safe using "you" as the formal second person subject pronoun, because that is exactly what it is.

Two, you are the only one who knows what your invention of "U" means. So it's actually not at all functional. It remains a completely useless invention as its meaning is lost on anyone who sees it, they just find it an annoying hindrance in trying to read your posts.

And why the need to create formal and informal address in a language that doesn't use it anyway? You're a native English speaker aren't you? The billions of English speakers world wide get along just fine without a specific formal second person pronoun, are you telling me out of all those billions of people you are the one special snowflake who just can't possibly use the language unless it has a formal pronoun?

BTW "U" was just an example of one of the many abbreviations and formatting you use that are jarring and tiring to try and understand. I just used an abbreviation for 'by the way' which I'm pretty sure was not jarring because we all adhere to the same convention. That's the difference. You are the only one who knows what you mean by your abbreviations and formatting and you are the only one who uses those conventions, thus forcing everyone who wants to read your posts to adjust to you. As if it's your world and everyone had to adapt to your whims.

For what it's worth, I don't have an issue with the purple font.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
I use standard abbreviations for terms used in dog-training frequently - such as LLW = loose-leash walk, or those used by anyone talking dogs in general - GSD, CKCS, GSP, & similar.
.
If someone has a specific question about a particular comment i made, & they can't be bothered to ask what i meant by X, then i certainly can't explain - but my shorthand is not unique, weird, or self-created. 
"Pos-R", if we're talking about the quadrants of feedback in training, is not opaque. It's obvious.
.
Now, i'll spend what little time i have B4 work giving bad advice, making lousy jokes, & insulting undeserving innocents - the way i always do.  Cheers!
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
almost forgot - there's also this lovely resource, put together by the ever-helpful Rob
.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/glossary-explanation-of-abbreviations-acronyms-and-jargon.168383/
.
New terms can be added by posting a query on the sticky. 
.
.
.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2016)

Leashed, if I have to consult a glossary to make it though your posts, I won't bother. Sorry.

Actually, not sorry. I've tried now on several occasions to nicely explain to you why your posts are ignored by so many on this forum, but you simply persist in this notion that it's up to everyone else to adapt to you, while on your end, you have no responsibility to try and make your posts more readable or address the comfort of so many other posters.

Which frankly circles right back to my original comment when you told me to fork off. You appear to have absolutely zero regard for any point of view other than your own and refuse to accept the experiences of others. 

Basically if you deem your posts readable, they're readable, screw the 20 other posters who find your posts unreadable, their experiences with your posts aren't valid. 
If you deem that head collars aren't aversive and that all dogs can be acclimated to them, then that's it. That's the truth of the matter and anyone who has had a different experience is just incapable of desensitizing a dog properly, or doesn't know their dog and is misreading their very clear signs of distress with the tool. 
Likewise with prongs. You have decided they are painful tools that aren't necessary, yet there are many dogs and competent, humane handlers who show this to not be true. Yet you refuse to accept it. 

Same song every time, different tune.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Oh man...if only the last paragraph by Leashed...wasn't I guess supposed to be sarcastic..

It is too truthful especially insulting undeserving innocents...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Well, I'm one of the odd balls then because I don't struggle with @leashedForLife's abbreviations, typeface or colour  some of the general training terminology and jargon I struggle with, but it's not IMO that hard to scan through her posts if you're truly interested in what she has to say.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

I try to be open-minded. I used a prong collar once about 20 years ago, under supervision, and the reaction when my dog pulled on the lead (she was very reactive to other dogs when on lead) was enough to convince me that prongs cause more than just discomfort and I never used it again. I cannot imagine a time when I would ever be in the position where I would want to use one but do know some of the top trainers that I admire, such as Michael Ellis, do occasionally use them. 

I would imagine they are a tool to be used only in limited circumstances and by someone proficient in their use and not by Joe Public. I personally prefer Suzanne Clothier's approach about a "cooperative relationship with the dog's mind, not controlling his body or using physical corrections".


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> You appear to have absolutely zero regard for any point of view other than your own and refuse to accept the experiences of others.


I didn't 'Like' your post to be deliberately contentious or to stir the pot. I 'liked' it for the above statement alone.

Something I told the member way back in 2009.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2016)

Moobli said:


> I cannot imagine a time when I would ever be in the position where I would want to use one but do know some of the top trainers that I admire, such as Michael Ellis, do occasionally use them.


You know I'm a huge ME fan  
I would not hesitate to hand my dog over to him, while there are plenty of trainers who call themselves "positive only" (I hate that term) that I would very much hesitate to allow to work with my dogs.



Moobli said:


> I personally prefer Suzanne Clothier's approach about a "cooperative relationship with the dog's mind, not controlling his body or using physical corrections".


 Yep  Love her! And I love her write-up on head collars that @smokeybear posted earlier in the thread.

http://suzanneclothier.com/problem-head-halters

"Despite their popularity, head halters, in my opinion, have many drawbacks and offer much potential for pain and discomfort. (I'm not even going to address the long term effects of such insults to the soft tissue of the neck other than to say that the ultimate result of any repeated insult to soft tissue is dysfunction.) In their very application, resistance is often created which simply adds to the problems already at hand which necessitated the halter in the first place! *In some situations, head halters might be a suitable choice, but should be viewed as a temporary phase, not a life long solution.* Based on what I seek when working with a dog - willing partnership, a calm mind free from resistance, and only the equipment necessary to allow me to communicate?clearly and quietly with the dog - there are other choices that work much?better for me."


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