# Breeding Terms



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Is it always the breeder who takes all the risks? If one puts a bitch out on breeding terms, the new owner pays nothing for it up front. What if it turns out the bitch can't be bred from? Then the new owner still has the dog and the breeder has nothing, right? Or should the new owner pay the price of a pup if the dog can't be bred from?


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Not always, depends on what agreement you have come 2, I owned cara in partnership with my breeder, I paid half price 4 her, Cara had 1 litter as agreed, we had the litter at home rather than Cara travel 2 breeder, this was the decision taken on what was best 4 Cara, so our agreement worked fine, breeders always take a rsik with any bitch, u can't know until health tests done etc if they r suitable 2 breed or show for that matter, either way though the bitch gets a good home IMO


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

So you paid half for your bitch - who footed the bill for bringing up the litter? Who got the proceeds of the sale of the pups? If your bitch could not have been bred from, at least the breeder got some money for the pup up front. (half price but better than nothing!)


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> So you paid half for your bitch - who footed the bill for bringing up the litter? Who got the proceeds of the sale of the pups? If your bitch could not have been bred from, at least the breeder got some money for the pup up front. (half price but better than nothing!)


The litter was my breeders litter, registered under her affix and she got proceeds from the sale, we agreed an amount for their upkeep, bills etc which came out of the proceeds of the litter, I also got 2 keep a bitch out of the litter as my breeder couldn't keep one back ,and my breeder will show her 

Both her and her OH moved into our house on shifts with pupsters, me and my OH helped out where we could as we were working also, after the intial 3 weeks we took on alot of the care ourselves so we could get back 2 some normality lol.

It worked out fine and I wouldn't have missed the experience 4 the world, I think it was made easier as we r all very good friends so it did make a difference, It could have all gone very easily wrong as it's an emotional rollercoaster and folks do have differing views on how 2 do things lol, what I would say is put it in writing discuss all options thoroughly so there r no misunderstandings from the beginning


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I guess this begs the question, what kind of a breeder puts a bitch out on breeding terms? One that has too many dogs I would think 

Surely this only ever happens when a breeder knows well and trusts the person they farm their bitch out to? As apet owner I would never consider this, would only think it something those involved with specific breed would do?

Or is it a way for people to get free pedigrees ... once their breeding days are over?


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I guess this begs the question, what kind of a breeder puts a bitch out on breeding terms? One that has too many dogs I would think
> 
> Surely this only ever happens when a breeder knows well and trusts the person they farm their bitch out to? As apet owner I would never consider this, would only think it something those involved with specific breed would do?
> 
> Or is it a way for people to get free pedigrees ... once their breeding days are over?


I have known many people do this.. And I wouldn't say it was because they have too many dogs already..


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I have known many people do this.. And I wouldn't say it was because they have too many dogs already..


Why do they do it then?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> I guess this begs the question, what kind of a breeder puts a bitch out on breeding terms? One that has too many dogs I would think


There are many breeders who do this, for many reasons.....



Amethyst said:


> Surely this only ever happens when a breeder knows well and trusts the person they farm their bitch out to? As apet owner I would never consider this, would only think it something those involved with specific breed would do?


no, it doesn't have to be a friend. I don't get how its farming a bitch out. The owner keeps the bitch, the breeder just takes a litter.



Amethyst said:


> Or is it a way for people to get free pedigrees ... once their breeding days are over?


Yes well thats what I'm wondering - does the owner get a free dog, if the dog isn't to be bred from?


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I guess this begs the question, what kind of a breeder puts a bitch out on breeding terms? One that has too many dogs I would think
> 
> Surely this only ever happens when a breeder knows well and trusts the person they farm their bitch out to? As apet owner I would never consider this, would only think it something those involved with specific breed would do?
> 
> *Or is it a way for people to get free pedigrees ... once their breeding days are over?*


No thats a fair point, I do know osme breeders who just don't have the room as thye r a small breeder, but in order 2 keep their lines going they do breeding terms, it's very common in dogs so not unheard of 

I'm dear firends with my breeder so it was based mainly on trust, we owned Cara jointly so not a case of famring out as such, she is very much part of our family, my breeder has since gifted her 2 me on full ownership so she is 100% mine, she does still show her though 

Not sure wha tu mean in the text highlighted bold, but happy to discuss if u can elaborate


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Ditsy42 said:


> [/B]
> Not sure wha tu mean in the text highlighted bold, but happy to discuss if u can elaborate


I think it's self explanantory? I presume you don't pay for looking after the breeders dog until pups are obtained, maybe a several litters and she is signed over to you?

So ... you get the bitch for no fee at end of her use to breeder?


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I think it's self explanantory? I presume you don't pay for looking after the breeders dog until pups are obtained, maybe a several litters and she is signed over to you?
> 
> So ... you get the bitch for no fee at end of her use to breeder?


Yes I do pay 4 and look after Cara she is our girl even if she is on a partnership she is very much ours as she lives here, if we had needed vetinerary care then yes the cost may have been shared, but cara is fit and healthy so that never came up.

I wouldn't have agreed to any bitch having several litters, it's not something I'm comfortable with, we agreed 1 litter only and cara will not b bred from again, if she had been then I would only have agreed to 2 litters maximum.

Cara has been signed over to me (rather OH as she is his girl accoridng 2 him), we all got what we wanted from the experience, we got cara and a daughter to carry on showing, my breeder keeps her lines going and gets 2 show both of them.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

BUT, had you not paid half price for her and it turned out she could not be bred from, you would have got her for free, right?


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> BUT, had you not paid half price for her and it turned out she could not be bred from, you would have got her for free, right?


Yes I would have got 2 keep her without a cost involved, so yes the breeder is taking a chance in that respect


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

I suppose as a breeder u have 2 weigh up the reasons why u put a bitch out on terms against the cost of just selling the puppy, if keeping your lines going then that has 2 b paramount to what u could have potentially sold the puppy 4, certainly in my case it was the lines so worth the risk on terms, nothing is ever guaranteed in breeding or showing, so u do ya best to balance what u have got and what your aspirations r if that makes sense


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I guess this begs the question, what kind of a breeder puts a bitch out on breeding terms? One that has too many dogs I would think
> 
> Or is it a way for people to get free pedigrees ... once their breeding days are over?


no not always,if dog is held in joint ownership it can allow somebody else to show a quality bred bitch from a top breeder.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I think it's self explanantory? I presume you don't pay for looking after the breeders dog until pups are obtained, maybe a several litters and she is signed over to you?
> 
> So ... *you get the bitch for no fee at end of her use to breeder?*


I just want to answer this. Having friends who have done this with Breeders.. one bitch being a Great Dane.. 

Now you say no fee..Can I point out that a fee in my eyes isn't just money..

Lets not forget the blood sweat and tears that come from the process of breeding.. And generally the person who has the bitch takes al this on..


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> BUT, had you not paid half price for her and it turned out she could not be bred from, you would have got her for free, right?


Absolutely not!! I am Cara's breeder and I would never have done it without half price being paid, but if we had, it would have been written in to the contract that if Cara was not bred from for whatever reason, Ditsy would pay half price for her anyways. Part of the arrangement was Ditsy could take ONE puppy for free, so if she hadnt been bred from, and Ditsy wanted another Ceearott puppy, she would have had to buy a one full price! I am Cara's breeder and I consider paying half price for a bitch, regardless of showing or breeding a very good price!! Ditsy has the pleasure of the day to day living with Cara and to all intents and purposes, owns her much more than I ever did!! If she had failed her health tests for breeding we would have continued to show her anyways, so Ditsy still gains a show dog for half price.

It was slightly different here as we are all very very good friends and trust each other implicitly. All the ins and outs of this ownership were put in the contract and all parties agreed before signing.

I personally would have liked another litter from Cara, but, because I CARE VERY MUCH for my dogs, we ALL decided not to breed from her again, for several reasons, which I am NOT going into on here (not health reasons!).

I certainly didnt do it because i 'have too many dogs already'!! I did it as a way of protecting my lines and ensuring I could keep the lines going, after I had put so much hard work into it all and had several things go wrong with my breeding program, as nature moves in mysterious ways sometimes, other bitches I had kept couldnt be bred from for one reason or another. If I hadnt of gotten Cara into co-ownership, I would have kept a bitch myself, but not kept the male pup. I dont it for money, its a way of protecting my lines and keeping all options open.

For instance, my two bitches that have gone to the US and Canada, they are owned outright by friends BUT I retain the right to take a puppy back for free, anytime I like in the future, from either or both bitches. This doenst mean I definetly will, it means I can.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> I just want to answer this. Having friends who have done this with Breeders.. one bitch being a Great Dane..
> 
> Now you say no fee..Can I point out that a fee in my eyes isn't just money..
> 
> Lets not forget the blood sweat and tears that come from the process of breeding.. And generally the person who has the bitch takes al this on..


And also, it was originally planned that Cara would come back to us for the litter, but, as we are good friends, and Cara is such a spoilt little madam (LOL!) who likes being at home best, we ALL decided twas best for her to whelp at home, this being that Ditsy and OH could gain experience and the sheer enjoyment of raising a litter for IF they ever decide to breed from their own bitch in the future.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Ditsy42 said:


> Yes I would have got 2 keep her without a cost involved, so yes the breeder is taking a chance in that respect


No you wouldnt missus!! PMSL!!!! I would have sent the bailliff to the door!!!!!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I also gifted Cara to Ditsy, removing myself from her ownership papers, purely as we are suchj good friends. I wouldnt do this in other circumstances.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Ceearott said:


> And also, it was originally planned that Cara would come back to us for the litter, but, as we are good friends, and Cara is such a spoilt little madam (LOL!) who likes being at home best, we ALL decided twas best for her to whelp at home, this being that Ditsy and OH could gain experience and the sheer enjoyment of raising a litter for IF they ever decide to breed from their own bitch in the future.


True friendship you two have.. something very special that is rare to come by.. Big hugs to you both..  xx


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> No you wouldnt missus!! PMSL!!!! I would have sent the bailliff to the door!!!!!


LOL PMSL u would have had 2 find me first missus


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> True friendship you two have.. something very special that is rare to come by.. Big hugs to you both..  xx


Very rare indeed and I treasure the friendship me and my OH have with ditsy and her OH like I hold gold in my hands. We have helped each other out enormously, although its probably them helping us out more than other way round, LOL! I just know we wont ever fall out, and thats something that happens rarely in this world.

Ditsy - I luvs ya loads hun!!! 

I am also very lucky to have the same, if not even closer friendship with a breeder in the US, we have shared so much tragedy over our dogs, we have a special bond that will never be broken, Deb and I are truly soulmates.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Ditsy42 said:


> LOL PMSL u would have had 2 find me first missus


You run like Pheobe - I would find ya!!!! PMSL!!!!


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Very rare indeed and I treasure the friendship me and my OH have with ditsy and her OH like I hold gold in my hands. We have helped each other out enormously, although its probably them helping us out more than other way round, LOL! I just know we wont ever fall out, and thats something that happens rarely in this world.
> 
> Ditsy - I luvs ya loads hun!!!
> 
> I am also very lucky to have the same, if not even closer friendship with a breeder in the US, we have shared so much tragedy over our dogs, we have a special bond that will never be broken, Deb and I are truly soulmates.


U a shopaholic so that there gold wouldn't last long in ya hands PMSL, seriously though we have been through some tough times and come out the other side, u both mean the world 2 me n OH u know that, u make me laugh at ya antics (Del Boy)  and I luv u both dearly xx


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> You run like Pheobe - I would find ya!!!! PMSL!!!!


Pi$$ off missus, but u r so right  YouTube - ‪Phoebe running style‬‏


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Ceearott, sounds like you got it right. But if a breeder had let a pup go for nothing and then found that the pup was not breeding quality, I guess its hard luck for the breeder??


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Ceearott, sounds like you got it right. But if a breeder had let a pup go for nothing and then found that the pup was not breeding quality, I guess its hard luck for the breeder??


Guess it is a chance they take, if the do get a litter won't they make a tad more on pups as they have not had to feed the mum? Does the breeder provide food & wormers for mum to be? The surely have to provide food when mum is feeding and then puppy food .... don't they


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Ceearott, sounds like you got it right. But if a breeder had let a pup go for nothing and then found that the pup was not breeding quality, I guess its hard luck for the breeder??


Yeah, unless they had worked something in the contract for owner to pay something if this happened. Basically, its part of breeding, every decision you make is a gamble!
We bred 4 1st generation litters and Cara is from the 4th litter, other bitches we kept from the other 3 litters werent able to be bred from, for differing reasons, so this is our first 2nd generation litter, whereas if things had gone to plan, we could have been breeding from a 3rd generation bitch by now.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Guess it is a chance they take, if the do get a litter won't they make a tad more on pups as they have not had to feed the mum? Does the breeder provide food & wormers for mum to be? The surely have to provide food when mum is feeding and then puppy food .... don't they


We had arrangement whereby Ditsy paid for all stuff up front, but got paid back when puppy money came in, so really they didnt pay for owt financially, but paid in blood, sweat and tears, lol! I cant pay that back, lol!


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Guess it is a chance they take, if the do get a litter won't they make a tad more on pups as they have not had to feed the mum? Does the breeder provide food & wormers for mum to be? The surely have to provide food when mum is feeding and then puppy food .... don't they


breeder does pick this up

Most bitches would go back 2 breeder 4 whelp don't forget so ordinarily at their cost, depends what kind of relationship u have with ya breeder, cara had best of everything, she was wormed as normal anyhow and we fed her here, didn't cost that much more as she is raw fed as were pups, this was factore dinto the costs and overheads


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

As for the 'make a tad more on the pups' -

that is hilarious!! I havent 'made' anything on this litter AT ALL!!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I guess this begs the question, what kind of a breeder puts a bitch out on breeding terms? One that has too many dogs I would think
> 
> Surely this only ever happens when a breeder knows well and trusts the person they farm their bitch out to? As apet owner I would never consider this, would only think it something those involved with specific breed would do?
> 
> Or is it a way for people to get free pedigrees ... once their breeding days are over?


Not at all - there can be many many reasons - I sent one of my pups to a friend in France in joint ownership - no money changed hands - she wanted a bitch for showing and breeding - and as she literally 'saved my life' at a time when I really needed a friend - the pup went just some of the way to saying 'thanks. If she had been bred from, the likelihood is, I would have had a pup back.

As it happens - the owners ill health put an end to our girls showing career (which started off very well - but a long distance show in the UK is considered local in France) and she had to draw the line at taking a litter from her - such is life - I know my girl has a fantastic life out there with her 3 canine housemates, 4 acres of land and their own swimming pool - if it could have worked - brilliant - it didn't and the main thing is, I have, in small way, repaid her kindness and brought them happiness in the form of a gorgeous labrador girlie 

ETA - I've been offered a bitch on breeding terms - but when I really thought about it - felt the responsibility if something went wrong was just too high


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I remember one breeder, a dog one, that would sell a pup, then they would look after and she would take it back at 2years old and have a litter from her, after health tests etc, and she kept a pup and would do the same as she was ina small house & couldnt keep all the dogs. You had to live within a certain area from her, so she could get to you, and socialise the dog really well etc.

she called it something, cant remember the term for it.


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## Ka7e (May 27, 2011)

A long time ago, I had a beautiful Lab on breeding terms. She was from a good show kennel and was lovely to look at, but too shy for the ring. Her breeder had run on her litter sister as well so already had a new bitch for showing.

We paid the going rate for a pet quality puppy. 
The breeder choose the stud dog - I can't recall who paid the stud fee (it was for a dog whose owners they knew very well) - they paid the costs of transporting her 300 miles and back for the mating. 
I paid all the other costs involved in raising a litter and would have to have paid for any medical treatment involved, like a C-section. 
They took their choice of the only female puppy produced and introduced me to potential homes for the other pups.

Out of the kennel invironment, she had blossomed into lovely sociable pet and her breeders expressed regret at not keeping her as a brood bitch. Unfortunately she was a lousy mother, too people-oriented to want to stay with her pups! Luckily I only wanted a pet and we had 14 happy years with our "reject"


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

We had Freyja 3 years ago. Her breeder wanted us to have her as they wanted us to have a good bitch to show. She was already 4 years old and had done a lot of winning with them in Ireland. We could not afford to buy her outright so gave them what we could which was 3/4 of the price. It was agreed that we would breed a litter off her and they would have a bitch puppy back

When we had her they suggested that Owen would be a good dog to use on her then later opffered us the chance to use one of their champion dogs. They had use him on their own bitches but said no one over here was going to use her until Freyja had had her litter. Sadly she reabsorbed the litter and the stud went to live in Portugal before we had chance to use him again. 

Last december was the last chance we had to mate her we used Simba as he is Owen's and we are often told he is a better dog. Freyja had 10 pups in february this year although we lost 2.

As the agreement one of the pups went to live in Ireland. Freyja was already in our name they were happy to take the risk that we may never have had a litter from Freyja.


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