# Breeding for the first time...greatful of any advice :)



## Sioned (Jan 31, 2012)

I've just mated my cavalier king charles spaniel 3 weeks ago, i was told some symptoms might show at 3 weeks but i am yet to notice anything. Is 3 weeks to early for her to show? Thanks :smile5:


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## mich1971 (Jan 20, 2012)

If it's her first litter i wouldn't really expect to see any noticable changes tbh, maybe her teats may start to pink up a little and she may have a bit of morning sickness. In another week you could take her for a scan to get confirmation of pregnancy and to get an idea of numbers etc. Good luck


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sioned said:


> I've just mated my cavalier king charles spaniel 3 weeks ago, i was told some symptoms might show at 3 weeks but i am yet to notice anything. Is 3 weeks to early for her to show? Thanks :smile5:


Some websites that may be helpful. Cavalier Matters for Pet Folk, Simple advice for potential and existing owners. Compaigning for Future Health and Welfare of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Cavalier Matters - Simple Advice for Potential & Existing Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Owners

http://www.akc.org/breeders/resources/guide_to_breeding_your_dog/pdf/guide_to_breeding_your_dog.pdf


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## Sioned (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks for your help, will look the website up. Her teats are very pink already so im not sure :s She's off her food since about a week aswell, dont know if thats some sort of sign? Thanks


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## Tula&Iver~cavs (Sep 16, 2010)

Have you go any recent pics of her? How old is she?


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## Sioned (Jan 31, 2012)

She's 16 months going on 17  Not sure how to upload pictures into this thread, i have posted some pictures in tha photos catagory under c.k.c spaniels  xx


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

she is too young to be being bred,
has she had all her health tests for the breed.
sorry to be blunt


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

She is very young to be bred  I seriously hope for her sake that she gets through this pregnancy OK. Females bred too young are much more likely to have difficulties during birth so you will need to be very careful and aware or any problems, because their pelvis isn't large enough for safe birth at this age in most dogs.

I would take her to the vet for a check up, you can ask about when she should be showing there.


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Your bitch is much too young. The minimum age for a Cavalier to be bred is 2 1/2, and both parents should be aged over 5. This is because the prevalence of early onset heart disease (MVD) is extremely high in this breed, and good breeders are working within these guidelines to ensure the pups they breed have as long and healthy life as possible.

Cavaliers should also have a clear eye certificate to show that they are clear of hereditary cataracts (HC) and Multi Retinal Dysplasia (MRD).

This breed also suffers a terribly disabling condition called Syringomyelia (SM). The age of onset for this is averaging around 3 years, so breeding at a young age without knowing how the bitch's health is going to be when they reach this age could be disastrous! Good breeders are having their dogs and bitches MRI scanned to make sure they are suitable to breed - the newest recommendations to account for for this is that they are not bred till over 3 years, and this depends on their MRI result and the age and status of the stud.

A guide to this can be found here BVA/KC CM/SM Scheme

There is also a new initiative to study the occurence of Dry Eye and Curly Coat, a painful and debilitating condition, often apparent at birth and can be fatal, and Episodic Falling, a distressing condition for Cavalier and owner. A simple DNA test is required. 
Info here http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-xmodnewsrss_detail/spaniels-to-benefit.html

Information on heart and other health matters here The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club - Front Page

and here Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases

and also here Cavalier Matters - Simple Advice for Potential & Existing Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Owners

Frankly, you should know all about this long before now.


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Stellabella said:


> Your bitch is much too young. The minimum age for a Cavalier to be bred is 2 1/2, and both parents should be aged over 5. This is because the prevalence of early onset heart disease (MVD) is extremely high in this breed, and good breeders are working within these guidelines to ensure the pups they breed have as long and healthy life as possible.
> 
> Cavaliers should also have a clear eye certificate to show that they are clear of hereditary cataracts (HC) and Multi Retinal Dysplasia (MRD).
> 
> ...


why dont people do their homework and research before they breed
so many think put 2 dogs together and hey bingo, cute puppies
crazy ,


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sioned said:


> I've just mated my cavalier king charles spaniel 3 weeks ago, i was told some symptoms might show at 3 weeks but i am yet to notice anything. Is 3 weeks to early for her to show? Thanks :smile5:


I can only echo what others have said - this is too young to be breeding from her 

Also, the puppy market is horribly depressed at the moment - I've got a waiting list for my pups from fully health-tested parents, but am seriously reconsidering my options now and may well buy in instead of breeding.

Slowly - the british public are becoming more educated about the need for parents to be health-tested before breeding, and for breeds such as yours, I think the awareness is greater because of the horrendous conditions they suffer from - I didn't agree with the overall approach of PDE - but I think for this breed particularly it did bring issues to the fore which people needed to know about.

If it were me, I would be mismating her and going back to do some more research before trying again.


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## mich1971 (Jan 20, 2012)

Why why why  . Please reconsider this pregnancy, your girl is still a baby with so much more maturing to do.
Do you own the stud too?? have they both had relevant health tests for the breed. At 16 months she can't possibly even begin to have shown any promise in any field - showing,working etc.

I appreciate that you have come here for advice and sound so excited by the prospect of cute puppies, but there is sooooooooooooooo much more involved than that. 
Everyone has to start somewhere i know but surely you want the best for your girl?? Do you have an experienced mentor to guide you, would you know if things were going wrong in labour (they often do), would you know what to do with a stuck puppy? a bitch in distress? Do you have homes lined up for these pups.

I really do not want to sound negative but please have a re think about this. If you decide to go ahead then you have a lot to do. Please buy the 'Book of the bitch', when your eyes are sore from reading it so many times, read it again and again and again and again !!!
I certainly do not want to put someone off from asking questions but please be aware that breeding can be a heartbreaking decision


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't post on PF anymore because I generally disgree with the vehemency of comments shown to inexperienced people asking for advice on this board but I am going to make an exception in this case. Firstly can I say that I honestly don't think you are a bad person for wanting to breed your lovely cavie, but I have personal experience of the dreadful disease SM. My story cut very short is that I bought my beautiful Cavie 13 years ago from a breeder recomended to me by the Cavalier club, all was fine until she was 18 mths, she started having'back' problems which the vet put down to her new bean bag bed which she kept falling off, she developed Eye problems she had 4 ops to remove ulcers which involved slicing the ulcerated section of eyeball off and stitching the eye together until iy healed, sounds awful doesn't it , well it was . Th back problems grew worse and she developped ear scratching and crying out, all of which went undiagnosed until The Pedigree Pets exposed programme, it then became perfectly clear what my beautiful girl had been suffering from for years, she had to be PTS a year later, we tried desperately to control her pain and symptoms but were failing and there was only one kindness I could do for her. Please please consider the guidelines regarding breeding Cavaliers, they are not just there for Show folk ar 'regular' breeders, they are there for a very good reason. If you had lived with one of these sweet sweet dogs suffering from eye problems or SM believe me, breeding without testinfg and without following the age guidelines would be the last thing you would want to do.
I am sure you would be horrified to be responsible for bringing pups into the world only to suffer a horrible fate.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jo5 said:


> I don't post on PF anymore because I generally disgree with the vehemency of comments shown to inexperienced people asking for advice on this board but I am going to make an exception in this case. Firstly can I say that I honestly don't think you are a bad person for wanting to breed your lovely cavie, but I have personal experience of the dreadful disease SM. My story cut very short is that I bought my beautiful Cavie 13 years ago from a breeder recomended to me by the Cavalier club, all was fine until she was 18 mths, she started having'back' problems which the vet put down to her new bean bag bed which she kept falling off, she developed Eye problems she had 4 ops to remove ulcers which involved slicing the ulcerated section of eyeball off and stitching the eye together until iy healed, sounds awful doesn't it , well it was . Th back problems grew worse and she developped ear scratching and crying out, all of which went undiagnosed until The Pedigree Pets exposed programme, it then became perfectly clear what my beautiful girl had been suffering from for years, she had to be PTS a year later, we tried desperately to control her pain and symptoms but were failing and there was only one kindness I could do for her. Please please consider the guidelines regarding breeding Cavaliers, they are not just there for Show folk ar 'regular' breeders, they are there for a very good reason. If you had lived with one of these sweet sweet dogs suffering from eye problems or SM believe me, breeding without testinfg and without following the age guidelines would be the last thing you would want to do.
> I am sure you would be horrified to be responsible for bringing pups into the world only to suffer a horrible fate.


Like seemed pretty inappropraite for your post - but I am glad you've posted it.

Hopefully, the OP will see it and maybe understand some of the risks she is placing not only her bitch at, but also the potential puppies to be.

I am so sorry for what you went through - I can't even begin to imagine how bad it must have been 

There are many bad conditions in the canine world - many which whilst undesirable for breeding, also are not life limiting or life reducing conditions - or can be dealt with by albeit major surgical intervention which then allows them to live normal lives. (neither of which are an excuse not to health-test)

SM along with a number of other conditions (many of which cannot be tested for) falls into a very different category from the little I know about can be a pretty horrific life limiting and life reducing condition which surely the OP doesn't want to risk imposing on any puppies they produce when by following the correct breeding guidelines, can be avoided.

Unfortunately OP, when people respond as they do, it can lead to posters being offended and going away, when the truth is, they post like they do because they have the best interests of the dog and it's puppies at heart.

I don't sit in the "newcomers shouldn't breed" camp, I do sit in the "if you are going to breed, learn about your breed and ensure that the recommended health tests are done"

I can even understand why some people are cautious over certain health-tests and the potential risks to the gene pool from breeding decisions made because of them.

Unfortunately, I don't have the same understanding over SM - please reconsider what you are doing for the sake of your girl and her babies - sometimes you have to play the long game when bringing new babies into the world


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

TBH I have been very brief in my explanation of a Dog suffering with SM it is such a horrific disease and Cavies are such a fabulous little breed it really is tragic, I am heartened though by the amount of breeders I see taking the recomendations on board though and I truly hope I will own a Healthy Cavie one day in the future


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

jo5 said:


> I don't post on PF anymore because I generally disgree with the vehemency of comments shown to inexperienced people asking for advice on this board but I am going to make an exception in this case. Firstly can I say that I honestly don't think you are a bad person for wanting to breed your lovely cavie, but I have personal experience of the dreadful disease SM. My story cut very short is that I bought my beautiful Cavie 13 years ago from a breeder recomended to me by the Cavalier club, all was fine until she was 18 mths, she started having'back' problems which the vet put down to her new bean bag bed which she kept falling off, she developed Eye problems she had 4 ops to remove ulcers which involved slicing the ulcerated section of eyeball off and stitching the eye together until iy healed, sounds awful doesn't it , well it was . Th back problems grew worse and she developped ear scratching and crying out, all of which went undiagnosed until The Pedigree Pets exposed programme, it then became perfectly clear what my beautiful girl had been suffering from for years, she had to be PTS a year later, we tried desperately to control her pain and symptoms but were failing and there was only one kindness I could do for her. Please please consider the guidelines regarding breeding Cavaliers, they are not just there for Show folk ar 'regular' breeders, they are there for a very good reason. If you had lived with one of these sweet sweet dogs suffering from eye problems or SM believe me, breeding without testinfg and without following the age guidelines would be the last thing you would want to do.
> I am sure you would be horrified to be responsible for bringing pups into the world only to suffer a horrible fate.


Thank you for sharing your tragic experience, how terribly, terribly sad. I can only say she couldn't have wished for a more caring and loving owner.

I try to avoid 'vehement' postings, I prefer to stick to the facts and point people in the direction of good information. I also hate how it sometimes comes to name calling and a poster never comes back and misses out on valuable advice - then probably goes ahead and breeds anyway.

But this time I did feel compelled to reply in the way I did - but I did try to stick to the facts, the KC and breed club recommendations, taking into account the newest research and proposals. It is the minimum that any Cavalier breeder should do before breeding, and then with as much info on the dogs behind them as possible.

If you look in my posts you will see that I have bred one litter, and also the health status of my bitch. I have also taken part in the DNA research for DE/CC/EF and will be able to use that information when planning our next litter.

About the health tests, I am more than happy to help, inform, advise, whatever, I also have had to learn a lot! But with this post, I was horrified to read how young the bitch is and (although I am sure the OP is a lovely person, as she comes across in her posts) I felt it was necessary to be blunt.

Please, OP, do as much research into this as you can in the coming days, and make an informed decision about letting this potential pregnancy continue, and any future breeding plans. There's plenty around here that will be happy to help.


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## Mamato5 (Feb 1, 2012)

I am interested to know if your bitch is pregnant?
I have just successfully breed my Springer Spaniels, and I noticed straight after mating her teats had enlarged and swollen. She didn't really have many symptoms with regards sickness and off her food but then again, it's like Human pregnancy, not everyone gets sick.

Best of luck to the original poster, I suspect after the previous comments she may not return. However I do agree the information was relevant and needed.


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