# Do People On These Forums Realise That Pine Woodshavings Cause Health Probs in Rodent



## Hazelwykes1952 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hi folks!I just wanted to warn everyone against using Pine Woodshavings for rodents-there's been a lot of warnings recently on various hamster websites warning about pine causing certain health problems in hamsters one of them being liver & respiritory problems-i just wanted you to avoid the problems i've had in the past with hamsters having respiritory problems & other health issues.

I have now changed to Carefresh & there's also other alternatives out there such as Aspen bedding,and Megasorb-which comes in large bales and lasts ages.

Have any of you had experiance of health problems with hamsters kept on pine woodshavings?

Does anyone already use Megasorb or Carefresh-What do you think of it?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I used untreated chopped straw which is soft and very absorbent and in bulk, a lot cheaper than those brands. I used to breed and show guinea pigs so have been aware of the perils of pine shavings for years. Have not had a single case of respiratory problems with them since using chopped straw.:001_smile:


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

You won't find any sort of shavings in this house, I use Megazorb


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I use megazorb for my guinea pigs and they love it, no respiratory problems here! I think everyone on here knows about the problems softwood shavings cause, and we're always careful to warn people not to use them!
Megazorb costs me £11.99 delivered and lasts me a bit over a month. Not sure how that compares to the likes of PAH woodshavings etc.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Im using carefresh cant say im a huge fan of it to be honest. its ok the mouse seems to like it but i think he liked his shredded paper more!


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

I use aubiose for the hamsters, mice, gerbils and rats, tbh I think everyone on pf will already know about shavings or if not they should :nono: .


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Yep, rabbits get newspaper and hay in their litter trays and the rats get Aubiose as substrate and Papelit paper pellets in their litter trays.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Don't think many on here still use shavings, you're preachin' to the choir


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

i havent used shavings in years, nasty things, in my opinion they really shouldnt be sold for use with small animals, and will always advise people against them

megazorb all the way here


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## Snippet (Apr 14, 2011)

I've never used them as I find they irritate my lungs, so can't be good for the small furries. I've used chopped straw, carefresh, auboise and ecobed for my rats.


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

As recommended me by TDM I use Aubiose too. Carefresh is not the best and is expensive too!


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I use a mixture of shredded paper and fresh hay, the gerbils love it & I've never had a problem


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I never had probs with the shavings with mine.. But I have a big enough supply of shredded paper to use that and a bit of shaving in the hamsters.. 

When Frank came I had just run out of paper so threw some shavings in.. That is now sorted.. Neighbour gave me more paper now..

RSPCA I asked them about why they use shavings.. Its what is donated to them..


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## $hAzZa (May 2, 2010)

niki87 said:


> As recommended me by TDM I use Aubiose too. *Carefresh is not the best and is expensive too!*


It's distgusting when its gets wet, it turns into into a pulp


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## Chinquary (Mar 5, 2009)

I used the pets at home shavings (don't know what wood that is though) for all my hammies and now my gerbils and have no problem with it at all.

The gerbils also have some hay thrown in too.


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

Chinquary said:


> I used the pets at home shavings (don't know what wood that is though) for all my hammies and now my gerbils and have no problem with it at all.
> 
> The gerbils also have some hay thrown in too.


Im on a gerbil forum and the debate over shavings and gerbils rages on, I think the school of thought at the moment is that shavings dont affect gerbils, I use aubiose for mine but that is because I have a huge bale of the stuff for all the other rodents.


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## Chinquary (Mar 5, 2009)

thedogsmother said:


> Im on a gerbil forum and the debate over shavings and gerbils rages on, I think the school of thought at the moment is that shavings dont affect gerbils, I use aubiose for mine but that is because I have a huge bale of the stuff for all the other rodents.


If I thought that the shavings effected my boys I wouldn't use it. But it holds good structure for their tunnels, doesn't smell, is cheap and easy to get hold of and I've not noticed any health effects, and I try to give them a quick look over often enough (well, as much as I can look at, they just won'n hold still!)


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## tiggerthumper (Apr 22, 2011)

When I got my two guinea pigs they had been kept on shavings and came to me with respiratory infections. I use carefresh now and have had no more problems, touchwood, I would prefer not to use carefresh though as I find it's rather smelly and expensive but it's the best thing I can find in my area


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

tiggerthumper said:


> When I got my two guinea pigs they had been kept on shavings and came to me with respiratory infections. I use carefresh now and have had no more problems, touchwood, I would prefer not to use carefresh though as I find it's rather smelly and expensive but it's the best thing I can find in my area


Try and order something like Ecobed online - it might look like a bit of a big spend but you get a lot more for your money


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

I always say at the very least shavings have been shown to pose a risk. I wouldn't expose my kids to a risk because it conveniences me, and I won't do it to my animals either.

I also look at the reaction I have to bedding as I suffer from asthma and hayfever. If it makes me sneeze they don't get it.

The only bedding I have ever used that makes never me sneeze nor them is Ecopetbed which I get locally for cheaper then the equivalent bale of shavings anyway.

I don't tend to preach too much to others though as its one of those controversial subjects that can cause a lot of unneccessary ruckus. However I feel strongly enough about it that I try to source my pets from only those who do not use shavings. I also figure that even [email protected] don't use in their cages so it must be really bad lol 

Obviously with alot of rescue animals I see too much the damaged respiratory systems because of the way they have been kept before coming into rescue. That isn't just bedding but it certainly contributes.

Imagine living amongst grass having been born with hayfever (the jury is still out on that one but I know it runs in families). Now imagine a low grade wheezing everyday for the rest of your life because your owner will not allow you to move to a different place. Noone may be able to detect this wheeze but it will bring your immune system down due to stress every day. Resulting in chest infections or early death even due to something unrelated to your chest. As an asthmatic I can imagine this scenario all too well, my daughter has been through illnesses and chest infections until she was old enough to have her asthma medication increased. She is now fit and well. This is my I don't use shavings, carefresh, Aubiose or even megazorb and finacard (all had reactions to).

Many people do not have such problems on these beddings, which is why it is controversial. Many people say they have used it for 30+ years with no early deaths and no resp issues. Although I struggle to believe anyone has mice and rats on anything with no such issues, I find it a frivolous exercise changing peoples minds, so I no longer try  I have friends who use this, as long as we don't discuss bedding we're fine  

So long story short, its a personal choice to use it, but not a choice I would make for the reasons above.

x


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

I use shavings. It's only some of the woods that you shouldn't use the shavings for with hamsters. Unfortunately the packs never say what the shavings are made from . So I stick to dust extracted named brands rather than the pound shop shavings. None of mine have seem to have an issue with them and none of mine have ever had obvious liver or respitory problems.

Shavings are soft on the hamsters bodies, easily moved around the cage in their pouches, stay in place when they burrow in it and a cheap and easy to get hold of. I've not found anything else yet that seems to work as well. Ecobed for example feels uncomfortable to my fingers, so I can't image my hammies wanting to run across it.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Ceretrea, I get my brother to stick his head in the bag when I open it and take a deep breath, he's really asthmatic  Been in hospital a fair few times for it.

He's never had a reaction to megazorb. I love the stuff. The pigs love it. Can't thank the person enough who recommended it to me!


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Lady Sol said:


> I use shavings. It's only some of the woods that you shouldn't use the shavings for with hamsters. Unfortunately the packs never say what the shavings are made from . So I stick to dust extracted named brands rather than the pound shop shavings. None of mine have seem to have an issue with them and none of mine have ever had obvious liver or respitory problems.
> 
> Shavings are soft on the hamsters bodies, easily moved around the cage in their pouches, stay in place when they burrow in it and a cheap and easy to get hold of. I've not found anything else yet that seems to work as well. Ecobed for example feels uncomfortable to my fingers, so I can't image my hammies wanting to run across it.


Yes I use the dust extracted shavings too and never had a problem so find no reason to change. Had one guinea pig with a respiratory illness but she had it when I bought her. Antibiotics cleared it up and she's been fine since.  The shavings do mostly get covered with hay though in the inside guinea pig cages. Always used it for hamsters too and not had one respiratory illness ever and I've had quite a lot of hamsters over the last 30 plus years.


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

Shrap said:


> Ceretrea, I get my brother to stick his head in the bag when I open it and take a deep breath, he's really asthmatic  Been in hospital a fair few times for it.
> 
> He's never had a reaction to megazorb. I love the stuff. The pigs love it. Can't thank the person enough who recommended it to me!


Within two weeks of using Megazorb every single one of my rats came down with sneezing. Within one week of not using it everyone got better. Pretty definitive for me 

And for asthma, so many different types and triggers I try not to get into a "my asthma is worse then yours" type thing 

Like I said, horses for courses. Ecopetbed is very comfortable. My mice burrow in it quite successfully and both rats and mice bed down on it directly.


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Ceretrea, I get my brother to stick his head in the bag when I open it and take a deep breath, he's really asthmatic  Been in hospital a fair few times for it.
> 
> He's never had a reaction to megazorb. I love the stuff. The pigs love it. Can't thank the person enough who recommended it to me!


 That is brotherly abuse!!!!!!!!!

Lol....which I would do if my brother lived with me...for he is asthmatic too


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Yes I use the dust extracted shavings too and never had a problem so find no reason to change. Had one guinea pig with a respiratory illness but she had it when I bought her. Antibiotics cleared it up and she's been fine since.  The shavings do mostly get covered with hay though in the inside guinea pig cages. Always used it for hamsters too and not had one respiratory illness ever and I've had quite a lot of hamsters over the last 30 plus years.


The British Association of Rodentologists/Cambridge Cavy trust say that shavings should never be used with guinea pigs due to them increasing the incidences of respiratory infection, parasitic infestation and possibly risk to internal organs due to the phenols.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

I have never heard of megazorb etc. and have always used dust free shavings without problems. I don't really have a problem with it and neither do my pigs.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Rhi said:


> The British Association of Rodentologists/Cambridge Cavy trust say that shavings should never be used with guinea pigs due to them increasing the incidences of respiratory infection, parasitic infestation and possibly risk to internal organs due to the phenols.


Good for them.:

Well I've kept them for over 35 years on shavings and not had any problems.: Thanks for the info.

Like I said before shavings are the bottom layer and the hay speads out over the top. If it ain't broke don't fix it!!


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

Wow 35 years of no illnesses at all. Gosh, I wish we were all that lucky.

The trouble with statements like that is that pets get ill all the time. Why is quite often open to debate, hence why theshavings issue is so controversial. Because both sides can prove anything using anecdotal evidence.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

ceretrea said:


> Wow 35 years of no illnesses at all. Gosh, I wish we were all that lucky.
> 
> The trouble with statements like that is that pets get ill all the time. Why is quite often open to debate, hence why theshavings issue is so controversial. Because both sides can prove anything using anecdotal evidence.


I didn't say no illnesses - I said no problems.: Like I said before I have a guinea pig who came to me with a respiratory illness, treated it with baytril and she's absolutely fine now. Most of the problems I've had with piggies has been hay mite and nothing to do with shavings. I have four inside piggies and eight in a shed in hutches. The ones in the hutches range from 2-4 years old and not one of them has been to the vet or needed the vet which is pretty good I think. My inside piggies range from 1 - 4 and only two of them have been to the vets - the one with the respiratory problem and my four year old boar who incidentally had nothing wrong with him - well not what the vet could find anyway and she gave him an all over check up. My oldest piggy died at 6 years old over a year ago.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

ceretrea said:


> Within two weeks of using Megazorb every single one of my rats came down with sneezing. Within one week of not using it everyone got better. Pretty definitive for me
> 
> And for asthma, so many different types and triggers I try not to get into a "my asthma is worse then yours" type thing
> 
> Like I said, horses for courses. Ecopetbed is very comfortable. My mice burrow in it quite successfully and both rats and mice bed down on it directly.


It wasn't a "my asthma is worse than yours" comment, it was more laughing at the fact I put my brother's life in danger for the sake of my pigs lol 

I'll have a look at ecopetbed if you've had rats react, because I'm hopefully getting meeces so don't want any probs


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

Shrap said:


> It wasn't a "my asthma is worse than yours" comment, it was more laughing at the fact I put my brother's life in danger for the sake of my pigs lol
> 
> I'll have a look at ecopetbed if you've had rats react, because I'm hopefully getting meeces so don't want any probs


Ahh I see 

The meece have been less reactive then the rats and liked their Aubiose but I had a rat die of an intusseption and whilst the vet said she didn't think it was a bedding impaction I got worried so took everyone off it. Thats just me if I think its a risk I won't spin the wheel. I never actually got a reaction off Megazorb which is why it made it to the cage and I was as surprised as the next person when they all flared up, even the really responsibly bred rats sneezed and wheezed! All had baytril which didn't do a thing until the bedding was removed then everyone spontaneously got better within a few days. Except for one of the rescue rats which wasn't surprising.

I've got 23 rodents now, I've lost 17 over the last 2 years. Most of those were mice, all my passed rodents went to the vets. Every one of them. When my girl rat died suddenly I had a post done on her to try and find the cause ( the intusseption). Thats just the way I prefer to do things, overprotective rodent mum 

I don't begrudge others using it, event hough they begrudge my not using it. Some got really shirty when I suggested Megazorb was risky *gasp* but at risk of sounding like a broken record, as long as you have looked at the evidence then make your own mind up with what you can live with.

I didn't want to just use ecopetbed because I had always done either. I went off and tried finacard (dusty), Aubiose (possible impaction hazard) and megazorb (dusty). I always come back to the squares....even though they still won't go up the hoover lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i use Aubiose for the hammies and aubiose and hay for the gerbils...im a bit worried about the risk of impaction now tho


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Good for them.:
> 
> Well I've kept them for over 35 years on shavings and not had any problems.: Thanks for the info.
> 
> Like I said before shavings are the bottom layer and the hay speads out over the top. If it ain't broke don't fix it!!


What's all the eye rolling about? That's completely disrespectful to experts who have dedicated their lives to the wellbeing of guinea pigs . Just because you have done something for years doesn't mean it's correct.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Rhi said:


> What's all the eye rolling about? That's completely disrespectful to experts who have dedicated their lives to the wellbeing of guinea pigs . Just because you have done something for years doesn't mean it's correct.


Exactly, like people breeding their bitch "just once" because it's good for them...


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Rhi said:


> What's all the eye rolling about? That's completely disrespectful to experts who have dedicated their lives to the wellbeing of guinea pigs . Just because you have done something for years doesn't mean it's correct.


Yes and a lot of these so called 'experts' aren't all they are cracked up to be either - they will be saying something different in a few years time.:

My piggies are fine, I keep them the way I want to and the way I believe in so I'm not arguing anymore - you believe the 'expert's' who have dedicated their lives to piggy welfare then - I choose not to and that is my right.

I don't believe I was the only one on this thread who said I used shavings so why is it my posts that keep getting picked on? Forum bullies again maybe?


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Exactly, like people breeding their bitch "just once" because it's good for them...


Don't you dare compare me to people who do that just because I won't cave in to what the 'experts' think.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I think this is an each to your own thread all i will say is what do hammies do in the wild or any rodents, I am sure they come into contact with dust and are fine.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Jazzy said:


> Yes and a lot of these so called 'experts' aren't all they are cracked up to be either - they will be saying something different in a few years time.:
> 
> My piggies are fine, I keep them the way I want to and the way I believe in so I'm not arguing anymore - you believe the 'expert's' who have dedicated their lives to piggy welfare then - I choose not to and that is my right.
> 
> I don't believe I was the only one on this thread who said I used shavings so why is it my posts that keep getting picked on? Forum bullies again maybe?


i used shavings for many years with no problems all, years ago people weaned babies at 4months, now its 6months even though research is now showing weaning at 4months can lower allergies etc Ive weaned one baby late over 6months (his choice) and one baby early ish at 19 weeks because they were ready

Its personal choice like dog food just because skinners suits my boys it wouldnt suit everyone, i can recommend it but not force my ideas on to some one like you said if its not broken dont fix it. 

i cant use it now as it causes my allergies to flare up lol


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Yes and a lot of these so called 'experts' aren't all they are cracked up to be either - they will be saying something different in a few years time.:
> 
> My piggies are fine, I keep them the way I want to and the way I believe in so I'm not arguing anymore - you believe the 'expert's' who have dedicated their lives to piggy welfare then - I choose not to and that is my right.
> 
> I don't believe I was the only one on this thread who said I used shavings so why is it my posts that keep getting picked on? Forum bullies again maybe?


I have only started posting on here recently so I have no idea what these politics you are referring to are so please don't accuse me of bullying :nono:. I am just taking as I find. Said expert is actually in her seventies and has held this opinion for years so it's not a new fad by an inexperienced owner.

You are well within your rights to do what you choose but please don't encourage others to do the same when it is proven to be harmful. There are things I choose to do as far as my animals go which I don't choose to shout about as it works for me but isn't something that is universally correct or transferrable to all situations.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Daynna said:


> i used shavings for many years with no problems all, years ago people weaned babies at 4months, now its 6months even though research is now showing weaning at 4months can lower allergies etc Ive weaned one baby late over 6months (his choice) and one baby early ish at 19 weeks because they were ready
> 
> Its personal choice like dog food just because skinners suits my boys it wouldnt suit everyone, i can recommend it but not force my ideas on to some one like you said if its not broken dont fix it.
> 
> i cant use it now as it causes my allergies to flare up lol


Thankyou - exactly what I think. I'm sick of the forum bullies on here telling you if you aren't doing like the 'expert's think then you are doing it all wrong and are going to harm your piggy. Last week it was because I didn't feed them the pellet food now it's because I use shavings.:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Jazzy said:


> Thankyou - exactly what I think. I'm sick of the forum bullies on here telling you if you aren't doing like the 'expert's think then you are doing it all wrong and are going to harm your piggy. Last week it was because I didn't feed them the pellet food now it's because I use shavings.:


just ignore them who are they to suggest you are harming your animals. End of the day its like anything there are for and against for alot of animal substrates/feeds out there its an each to there own, people shouldn't preach


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Rhi said:


> I have only started posting on here recently so I have no idea what these politics you are referring to are so please don't accuse me of bullying :nono:. I am just taking as I find. Said expert is actually in her seventies and has held this opinion for years so it's not a new fad by an inexperienced owner.
> 
> You are well within your rights to do what you choose but please don't encourage others to do the same when it is proven to be harmful. There are things I choose to do as far as my animals go which I don't choose to shout about as it works for me but isn't something that is universally correct or transferrable to all situations.


Who the hell do you think you are? I don't give a damn if some old woman in her seventies thinks this - good for her. And don't tell me not to encourage people to do what I do either.

Personally I wouldn't give rabbits newspaper because of harmful inks but that's your choice, surprised your so called experts haven't advised you on that.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> just ignore them who are they to suggest you are harming your animals. End of the day its like anything there are for and against for alot of animal substrates/feeds out there its an each to there own, people shouldn't preach


Thanks - seems to be a couple of people from other forums that like to come on and cause trouble - I've seen it all before, they will no doubt be on facebook now telling all their forum mates to come on and join in.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Jazzy said:


> Thanks - seems to be a couple of people from other forums that like to come on and cause trouble - I've seen it all before, they will no doubt be on facebook now telling all their forum mates to come on and join in.


well let them, what i say is true, there are a lot of differing opinions on many things, its just a case of accepting a persons choice


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Who the hell do you think you are? I don't give a damn if some old woman in her seventies thinks this - good for her. And don't tell me not to encourage people to do what I do either.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't give rabbits newspaper because of harmful inks but that's your choice, surprised your so called experts haven't advised you on that.


More to the point, who are you? Newspaper ink is fine. Are you a chemist?


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

DKDREAM said:


> I think this is an each to your own thread all i will say is what do hammies do in the wild or any rodents, I am sure they come into contact with dust and are fine.


The trouble is you say each to their own and then tell all those who choose to believe there is a risk that they are being silly. I have yet to come across a shavings user who wasn't patronising.

I say each to their own I choose not to take the risk. I can give you a mountain of evidence to suggest dust in pet rats is a huge issue just in my own home.

People feed their rats on rubbish because 'thats what they do it the wild'. Thats fine believe what you will but don't mock those who believe differently and that is why this subject is so controversial.

As for forum bullies, we've all posted. If we post we are quoted no one is bullying anyone.

I don't see the point of this thread because ths subject always always descends into a slanging match. People....use whatever bedding you feel is right ffs you have to live with it, you choose. Don't make others do what you do, they've been told and made their own minds up. Like any other aspect of animal care.


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

Rhi said:


> More to the point, who are you? Newspaper ink is fine. Are you a chemist?


Old newspaper bck in the day..oo 35 years ago...was toxic. It isn't anymore.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Rhi said:


> More to the point, who are you? Newspaper ink is fine. Are you a chemist?


Not from what I've read. Yes I know you are a Chemist, saw you mentioned it on an earlier thread.:Yawn:

Met some stupid chemists in my time too.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

ceretrea said:


> The trouble is you say each to their own and then tell all those who choose to believe there is a risk that they are being silly. I have yet to come across a shavings user who wasn't patronising.
> 
> I say each to their own I choose not to take the risk. I can give you a mountain of evidence to suggest dust in pet rats is a huge issue just in my own home.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, and I have never owned rats before so I can not comment about that but have read about wood shavings being bad for rats. It is good your advising people but at the end of the day like you say, its their choice.


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Not from what I've read. Yes I know you are a Chemist, saw you mentioned it on an earlier thread.:Yawn:
> 
> Met some stupid chemists in my time too.


I'm sure you have along with stupid experts as you have already mentioned :

As Ceretrea has said. Inks used to be dangerous but they are now water based as legally they have to be safe.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

ceretrea said:


> Old newspaper bck in the day..oo 35 years ago...was toxic. It isn't anymore.


Are you quite sure?

Taken from a rabbit site... However, many rabbits, especially if bored, will rip it up and the ink on newspaper can be harmful to rabbits if they ingest too much of it.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Rhi said:


> I'm sure you have along with stupid experts as you have already mentioned :
> 
> As Ceretrea has said. Inks used to be dangerous but they are now water based as legally they have to be safe.


see my post below....

Anyway not arguing with you two any more, you do it your way I'll do it mine.:thumbup1:

Ignore buttons are useful things for forum bullies such as you two.


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Are you quite sure?
> 
> Taken from a rabbit site... However, many rabbits, especially if bored, will rip it up and the ink on newspaper can be harmful to rabbits if they ingest too much of it.


quote me the study that said that.

Seems to me that being argumentative gets you quoted more. Then you can say you are being bullied. I'll step out of this thread as I have a)had my say and b) think this whole thing is a pointless exercise in having a go at people.


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Are you quite sure?
> 
> Taken from a rabbit site... However, many rabbits, especially if bored, will rip it up and the ink on newspaper can be harmful to rabbits if they ingest too much of it.


I don't have bored rabbits . Seriously though where did you get the info regarding newspaper being harmful recently? I line my litter trays with it and don't find my rabbits rip it up at all as they have a lovely thick layer of hay and lots of wood to chew which I assume is much nicer by the way they go at it.


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

edit:- more pointlessness. am stepping out as promised. no more fuel to the fire


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

The matter of fact is peoples opinions change all the time, in some years time, probably things we do now for our animals wont be a good for them.


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> see my post below....
> 
> Anyway not arguing with you two any more, you do it your way I'll do it mine.:thumbup1:
> 
> Ignore buttons are useful things for forum bullies such as you two.


To be fair I would say that you are the one who is doing the bullying as you started with the eye rolling an dissing of experts I was merely quoting what I have been told by a trusted professional.


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## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

Hazelwykes1952 said:


> Hi folks!I just wanted to warn everyone against using Pine Woodshavings for rodents-there's been a lot of warnings recently on various hamster websites warning about pine causing certain health problems in hamsters one of them being liver & respiritory problems-i just wanted you to avoid the problems i've had in the past with hamsters having respiritory problems & other health issues.
> 
> I have now changed to Carefresh & there's also other alternatives out there such as Aspen bedding,and Megasorb-which comes in large bales and lasts ages.
> 
> ...


Hamster in my experience where fine, but when I had my rats they had dust free cat litter for bedding

Piggies been fine with shavings!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Closed for looking at


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Please can we all remember, we are all entitled to opinions and its good to discuss each others experiences, But please no more personal insults/remarks Or this thread will be closed for good..

Thanks MomentofMadness x


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Woah! What happened here!!

I wasn't bullying you Jazzy, I just thought you could have put across what you said in a better way, rather than with the condescending eye rolls etc. as if what was being said wasn't true.... I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across like that though!
Lots of misunderstandings on this forum.

Now. CALM THE PANTS EVERYONE


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

I use shavings...and am not patronising. 

I use eco bed for my rats and mice and shavings for the hamster. I did have ham on eco bed but he couldn't burrow in it so switched her to dust free, branded shavings and she is much happier, an it has not caused any problems.


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## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

Chinquary said:


> If I thought that the shavings effected my boys I wouldn't use it. But it holds good structure for their tunnels, doesn't smell, is cheap and easy to get hold of and I've not noticed any health effects, and I try to give them a quick look over often enough (well, as much as I can look at, they just won'n hold still!)


It's cheap unless you buy it from Tesco. lol I went in there once around 9pm to see if they sold any, saw the Tesco Value one (the only one they sold), thought that would do till I saw there was nothing value about the price (which has since gone up). In terms of other suplliers, price wise, it is Tesco Finest price range if had been a large pack!
I waited till the morning and bought it elsewhere. Maybe it's just the shops I go in, but the Tesco Value one was the most expensive one in terms of value.


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## Chinquary (Mar 5, 2009)

davidc said:


> It's cheap unless you buy it from Tesco. lol I went in there once around 9pm to see if they sold any, saw the Tesco Value one (the only one they sold), thought that would do till I saw there was nothing value about the price (which has since gone up). In terms of other suplliers, price wise, it is Tesco Finest price range if had been a large pack!
> I waited till the morning and bought it elsewhere. Maybe it's just the shops I go in, but the Tesco Value one was the most expensive one in terms of value.


I have the really small bag of tesco value one atm.  I was just passing and thought I would pick it up. 
I'll have a look at pets at home and the Range (only two local shops that sell pet things!)


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## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

Chinquary said:


> I have the really small bag of tesco value one atm.  I was just passing and thought I would pick it up.
> I'll have a look at pets at home and the Range (only two local shops that sell pet things!)


I use Wilkinsons one, £1.49 for a big bag at the moment I think, way bigger than Tesco's for a bit more money, so saves money in the long run, though they do have larger bags.
If I bought Tesco's, I'd be spending a fortune everytime I cleaned out the tank (yes, I have one gerbil in a big tank  lol).


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

We buy a bale from an horse supplies shop for about £7.95 as we have 12 piggies and 3 hamsters so get through quite a bit.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> We buy a bale from an horse supplies shop for about £7.95 as we have 12 piggies and 3 hamsters so get through quite a bit.


yes us too buy a bale its about the same price as that very good value need it too wi my giant bun.x


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Same here. A big bale for £8.

Dust free and no problems with any of mine


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> yes us too buy a bale its about the same price as that very good value need it too wi my giant bun.x


Ooh just remembered we have a rabbit too... How on earth did I forget poor little Rosie.  She's a Netherland dwarf. We did have two but Binka died a few months ago and I'm not getting another as she is five now and I'm not having any more rabbits once she's gone to bunny heaven.


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

I use shavings, never had any problems with them. My guinea pig is healthy happy and has no problems, he turns four in november  each to their own x


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I use shavings for my hamsters and never had any problems they are coming up to 2years this November and are happy and healthy


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Kitty_pig said:


> I use shavings, never had any problems with them. My guinea pig is healthy happy and has no problems, he turns four in november  each to their own x


Exactly.:thumbup1:

If what you are doing works and doesn't cause problems why change because some 'expert' who has probably never had a guinea pig in his/her life decides that what we are doing is wrong. I would like proof first before I change,not what some so called expert says.:


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

Im sure the experts have their reasoning and have spent alot of money and time on research, but shavings have always worked well for us. My last hamster was on shavings too and lived to be 5 which I thought was a fantastic age for a pet shop bought hamster (I now know after reading posts on here about all the hamster/rat/etc farming that occurs  ) But I like to think I care for my pets and they are comfortable and happy  I didnt realise this caused such a debate x


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

Jazzy said:


> Exactly.:thumbup1:
> 
> If what you are doing works and doesn't cause problems why change because some 'expert' who has probably never had a guinea pig in his/her life decides that what we are doing is wrong. I would like proof first before I change,not what some so called expert says.:


And patronise those of us who see it differently. The people in this field are indeed experts in what they do. We read the evidence, of which there is plenty, plus my own experience tells me the risks involved although I cannot speak for guinea pigs, rabbits or hamsters.

I like to read others posts on why they use shavings but posts like yours really offend me. I may not be part of your club but I have equally valid reasons for why I use cardboard.

Each to their own but it seems some cannot resist stirring the pot.


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

Kitty_pig said:


> Im sure the experts have their reasoning and have spent alot of money and time on research, but shavings have always worked well for us. My last hamster was on shavings too and lived to be 5 which I thought was a fantastic age for a pet shop bought hamster (I now know after reading posts on here about all the hamster/rat/etc farming that occurs  ) But I like to think I care for my pets and they are comfortable and happy  I didnt realise this caused such a debate x


I had a mouse from a rescue situation who was so genetically inbred he should have not lived past 18 months old. He finally gave it up at nearly 3 :smile: I think I said before I find it so interesting when exceptions like that turn up. The other 1000 mice who were rescued from the same place, almost all of them died young. 1/1000 odds ain't bad


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm sure you all don't want this thread to be locked.. 
As Im sure all know.. It is very rare for us to have to lock a thread in the rodent section.. Please think before you post.. There really isn't a need for the bickering.. If you really can't help yourself.. Then send your point via PM!

As agreed previously we all have different ideas on bedding.. And sometimes it doesn't matter what a person says.. We won't change our ideas..


Now please back on topic without the digs or I will close the thread.. 
x


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

ceretrea said:


> I had a mouse from a rescue situation who was so genetically inbred he should have not lived past 18 months old. He finally gave it up at nearly 3 :smile:


What's so bad about inbreeding?


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

spoiled_rat said:


> What's so bad about inbreeding?


When you start with 2 mice and end up with 1000 from those two, then the resulting mice have all sorts of issues. Babies dieing at a few weeks old, mice with horrible issues very young (under a year). Particularly the males seemed to 'turn off' and die suddenly at either a few weeks or a few months. This guy therefore did really well to get that old.


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

That's an example of bad inbreeding.....but it isn't all like that, and can't be generalised as such or touted as the definition of 'inbreeding'...


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

ceretrea said:


> When you start with 2 mice and end up with 1000 from those two, then the resulting mice have all sorts of issues. Babies dieing at a few weeks old, mice with horrible issues very young (under a year). Particularly the males seemed to 'turn off' and die suddenly at either a few weeks or a few months. This guy therefore did really well to get that old.


Well I think you should be careful how you put your post.. as people in breed many types of animals to prolong lines and to create healthier animals.. as in only breeding the animals that have no traces of illness, this process is done over many years, and because an animal has been inbred, if done properly you should have a real nice healthy pet..

The way you have come across is all mice that are inbred are poorly.. That is wrong..


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Just to add my 2 pence worth, obviously I don't know about other rodents as I only have rats & haven't kept mice, hammies, guineas or gerbils for over 20 years.
I started keeping rats 20 years ago, when I was 15, I bought as many books with my pocket money as I could & did as much research as I could (the internet wasn't around then obviously so info was limited), one of the things I did was keep them on wood shavings as I didn't know any better. Until 2 years ago I believed the average lifespan of a rat was about 18 months & almost all of the rats I had died of respiratory problems & I spent a lot of time at the vets for respy meds. 2 years ago I finally got the internet & as soon as I did I started reading everything about rats I could get hold of & joined forums to find other ratty people. As soon as I found out that shavings were not recommended I changed to shredded cardboard. I can't say for certain there's a correlation between lifespan & substrate, as I haven't collected any data & am rubbish at statistics, but the average lifespan of the majority of my rats has increased by a year- Bullseye, my little old lady is now 3 & her sisters passed away at 2 1/2 & 2 & 7 months & they were the first rats I kept on alternatives to wood shavings. I've also noticed a decline in respy issues
Not a scientist's paper on the effects of sawdust, just a layperson's view


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Well I think you should be careful how you put your post.. as people in breed many types of animals to prolong lines and to create healthier animals.. as in only breeding the animals that have no traces of illness, this process is done over many years, and because an animal has been inbred, if done properly you should have a real nice healthy pet..
> 
> The way you have come across is all mice that are inbred are poorly.. That is wrong..


If you look at my post prior to that I did say "SO genetically inbred". Thus implying he was badly inbred as opposed to simply inbred a little bit. Plus I referred directly to that rescue situation, not an 'in general statement' at all in my opinion. Really I think people can be a bit touchy. I certainly have not 'touted' any kind of opinion on breeding and its ins and outs.

I direct you and Spoiled Rat to the post prior to my above clarification. My above clarification does explicitly say "Started with 2 and reached 1000". I can't be any clearer then that.


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## ceretrea (Jan 24, 2011)

spoiled_rat said:


> That's an example of bad inbreeding.....but it isn't all like that, and can't be generalised as such or touted as the definition of 'inbreeding'...


As above I can't see where I have generalised. I referred to him directly as "so genetically inbred" implying he was badly inbred. The hoarder he was rescued from started with a missexing of two mice and ended up 1000. As being one of many many people involved in keeping track of the 'welshies' as they were dubbed our old forum kept records of who died and what of/age. This is why I can state such things. I am certainly not trying to 'tout' a generalisation slandering breeders. I am merely stating the facts of that case


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Just to add my 2 pence worth, obviously I don't know about other rodents as I only have rats & haven't kept mice, hammies, guineas or gerbils for over 20 years.
> I started keeping rats 20 years ago, when I was 15, I bought as many books with my pocket money as I could & did as much research as I could (the internet wasn't around then obviously so info was limited), one of the things I did was keep them on wood shavings as I didn't know any better. Until 2 years ago I believed the average lifespan of a rat was about 18 months & almost all of the rats I had died of respiratory problems & I spent a lot of time at the vets for respy meds. 2 years ago I finally got the internet & as soon as I did I started reading everything about rats I could get hold of & joined forums to find other ratty people. As soon as I found out that shavings were not recommended I changed to shredded cardboard. I can't say for certain there's a correlation between lifespan & substrate, as I haven't collected any data & am rubbish at statistics, but the average lifespan of the majority of my rats has increased by a year- Bullseye, my little old lady is now 3 & her sisters passed away at 2 1/2 & 2 & 7 months & they were the first rats I kept on alternatives to wood shavings. I've also noticed a decline in respy issues
> Not a scientist's paper on the effects of sawdust, just a layperson's view


awww thats so sad that you lost your previous rats so young  . Glad you have found a solution now though and hopefully your lovely pets will continue to lead long healthy lives


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Kitty_pig said:


> awww thats so sad that you lost your previous rats so young  . Glad you have found a solution now though and hopefully your lovely pets will continue to lead long healthy lives


thankyou


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> thankyou


you're very welcome


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## Rhi (Feb 19, 2011)

Litter Boxes, Liver Disease and Your Rabbit

Article - "The Dangers of Softwood Shavings"

Welcome to the British Hamster Association Web Site

Pine

I suppose this lot is all a work of fiction by "experts" who are just trying to save the trees


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Hey, 

Just thought I'd throw this out there, take a step back and have a look. I think I smell a troll, the OP has only 14 posts most of which are controversial subjects and they haven't been back 

At the end of the day no matter what we say or how much proof we show people that use shavings will continue to use shavings until they experience a problem 



(Oh and just so you know I won't allow shavings in the house after using them once in an emergency and nearly loosing Zuess within a few days, once I changed back to Megazorb I had no further problems.)


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## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

I picked up a packet of straw or hay in Home Bargains earlier and read the back of it (yes I have a habit of reading pet items in shops  ), and it said it's not suitable for gerbils or mice or hamsters (can't remember whether it said hamsters or mice but definately said gerbils) because it can damage the food pockets in their mouths and not to give them hay or straw.


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