# Pub dog bites customer - any thoughts?



## potatan (Jun 22, 2010)

*Disclaimer* Please note, this is meant for discussion and reasoned opinions, not as a flame/troll. I can offer more information if required - I'm just intrigued what everyone thinks.

Okay,

Just wondered about your response to this.

Background - my friend has been in a wheelchair for many years (she is an MS sufferer). We drink in a local pub that has two "pub dogs", generally well behaved - they sniff around the tables when they're let in, and scrounge a bit if the landlord doesn't catch them. A Springer and a Rottweiler, maybe 3 or 4 years old, both seem pretty good at coming back when called.

Tonight my friend was stroking the Rottweiler, only tickling her head and that, maybe a bit too much I dunno - I've never owned a dog until recently, never known what people should or should not be able to do to them, or known what they like and dislike.

But then the dog jumped up, barked, and bit my friend on the nose, drawing blood from at least two puncture marks (took about ten minutes to stop bleeding).

*Important* Bear in mind that this particular dog (the Rotty) cannot open her jaw more than 1.5cm due to a medical condition, so if she had been able to she may have had my friend's entire nose off, or worse perhaps. 

Landlord's reaction... I would have expected him to have immediately told the dog to lie down or something, or chided her, or taken her upstairs. Instead he just told my friend off(!) for getting her face too close to the dog's, saying that you should never do that. 

I'm thinking that the landlord is a bit eager to blame the customer for his own failure to train his dogs.

I dunno, I just wondered what your take on this is, as dog owners, trainers, etc. 

I think the biggest thing for me is the fact that the landlord offered no apology at all for his dog's behaviour, instead preferring to absolve him and the dog, by blaming the customer for stroking his dog too much and putting her face too close. (My friend in a wheelchair - like many pub customers - has never owned a dog, so maybe didn't know this unwritten rule).


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

That is awful. Id be tempted to inform the local dog warden and make him keep both dogs away from customers in future.
Telling someone in a wheelchair that their face was too close to the dogs is abit daft too.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I wouldn't of been impressed Its not like the landlord could say she was invading the dogs space.... 

If it is out in the pub when people are there it shouldn't be snappy with people.... 

I understand its a dog and we can't trust them.. but still A pub dog shouldn't really be socialising with the punters... After all most pub dogs are usually brought down once the punters go so the staff can till up etc with a bit of safety, You guys may not agree with my thoughts... But its what I think..


Now if you go there regular and want to keep going there, Its not likely your going to do anything...

But if your not then I think I would inform the brewery? authorities... I know it was your mate.. But I have kids, what if it were a child in the pub....


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

If the landlord has his dogs wandering around a pub, he should ensue they would never never bite anybody! What if that was a child, and he jumped up and bit her! A child could be hurt enough just by the jumping!

You can pull my dogs tail and ears and she won't mind- we made sure that she was used to it from a young age so that she wouldn't ever bite a child. 

I think the landlord was out of order by not even apologising or removing his dog from ths scene, he could not have done much at the time although affection was hardly the way to go. I also think somebody should be informed.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

The land lord is in the wrong in my opinion.

A small childs face would be at the exact hight of the rotties face so what would he say then.

The dog has bitten a member of the public, the landlord needs to take steps to stop this happening again otherwise I'd report the incident.

I hope your friend is OK and not to shaken up and makes a complete recovery.

There is always a risk when letting dogs run loose in a pub, I worked in pubs with pub dogs before but the dogs never ran loose, the landlord or his family would bring them in but always under supervision either of themselves, a staff member or even a regular customer.


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## tiddlypup (Oct 4, 2008)

landlords liable,even though the dogs live there it is still a public place,worked in the pub game 10 yrs,contact dog warden and the brewery,you must report this for the dogs sake too,he needs a wake up call,this dog is being put in situations where it obviously feels uncomfortable,sadly a lot of lanlords think they are god,always right
hope your friends ok x


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

I am really shocked to read this!

If you friend was sitting back in a wheelchair, and not leaning down an forward, I can only think the Landlord is taking this line as a cover, afraid that the Rott will fall foul of dangerous dog legislation.

Let's be charitable, and assume he did not see the incident. If your friend was sitting back in wheelchair, I would make sure the Landlord understands the situation and attempt to talk the incident over without heat of moment emotions, or affects of alcohol to alter perspectives.

The fact that the dog jumped up on a customer without invitation, would need addressing. Nevermind this bite of face, which was a real bite, not an accidental scratch wound during "rough housing".

I think your friend should avoid looking this dog in the eye, and ignore it. The Landlord is right that you are unwise to put your face close to a dog. However from your description of the incident that is not what happened, and he ought to know, before someone else is hurt.

Since when is a guarding breed like a Rott well suited to being a pub pet? The situation seems against the dogs instincts, and might be stressing it.


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## potatan (Jun 22, 2010)

Thanks for all your measured responses.

Aside from the fact that the landlord didn't even consider an apology necessary, we shan't be returning to the pub (even though he keeps some really good ales). He's not the kind of bloke to be told what is right and wrong so I don't think there would be much mileage in going to have a chat with him. He is the owner of the pub too, rather than a manager, so there is no brewery as such, to talk to.

My concern (other than my friend's nose) is that without some kind of action the dog may be likely to do it again, particularly because she was not told off this first time she did it so may see it as permitted behaviour with people who tickle her under the chin too much.

Maybe time to have a quick word with the local Licensing Committee.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

wow what a stupid man, there is a pub where I live and they have 2 rotties as 'pub dogs', they are fantastic and play with the punters then are quite happy with a crisp and settle down under the tables. If there is anyway you could report this I would, what if the dog could open its mouth properly  it doesnt bare thinking about. Again another stupid dog owner 

I hope your friend make a speedy recovery


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

potatan said:


> He's not the kind of bloke to be told what is right and wrong so I don't think there would be much mileage in going to have a chat with him. He is the owner of the pub too, rather than a manager, so there is no brewery as such, to talk to.


The threat of calling the police/dog warden might make him listen though.

I'd have reported him. Had he told the dog off and removed it from the room I might have let it go, but I seriously would report him.

Like you said, if it goes for someone else and its a bit more serious, although I'd know it wasn't my fault I'd feel bloody guilty for not reporting him when I had the chance.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> The threat of calling the police/dog warden might make him listen though.
> 
> I'd have reported him. Had he told the dog off and removed it from the room I might have let it go, but I seriously would report him.
> 
> Like you said, if it goes for someone else and its a bit more serious, although I'd know it wasn't my fault I'd feel bloody guilty for not reporting him when I had the chance.


I agree if he's not doing anything about it I'd report it to the police and the dog warden, sad but he can't let an unpredictable dog wonder around the public with out keeping it under control


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

Difficult to know really without having seen the incident. if your friend was being stupid and putting her face in the dogs face and having MS had a mini fit then the dog could have been reacting, I wouldn't put my face in a dogs face if it wasn't my own anyway that is irresponsible and your asking for trouble.

To be honest I am sick to the back teeth of people thinking that a dog should have to fit in with the way they behave rather than doing as we have always done in the past and respecting that a dog is an animal. I was always taught as a child that before you touch you ask the owner otherwise DON'T touch the dog, dogs bite, My mum used to be very clear if the dog bite you its your own fault for not asking permission first. 

At some point common sense has to start somewhere.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

nfp20 said:


> To be honest I am sick to the back teeth of people thinking that a dog should have to fit in with the way they behave rather than doing as we have always done in the past and respecting that a dog is an animal.


I'm not being funny but the poster has already stated that her friend was stroking the dog, not shoving her face in its face and to be quite frank the dog SHOULDN'T be left to roam around a pub full of people like that.

If my Roo bit anyone the least I'd do is remove him from the room and apologise to the person he had bitten.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

your right it shouldn't. These days no dog is safe even good dogs have a bad day.

I am sorry that the person was hurt but sometimes you can see an accident waiting to happen.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

nfp20 said:


> your right it shouldn't. These days no dog is safe even good dogs have a bad day.
> 
> I am sorry that the person was hurt but sometimes you can see an accident waiting to happen.


Agreed.

But my point is that I've seen it before. A dog is let loose, wanders to someone, tail wagging, drops its head on their lap. They pet it then suddenly its nipped them and wandered off.

Clearly there has to be some sort of trigger, but if you don't know that dog you'd think it was being friendly and wanted a stroke.


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## potatan (Jun 22, 2010)

Just to clarify a couple of things.

The dog is generally a very friendly one and will sit for ages next to someone who wants to stroke it. Having said that, the dog will also bark at people walking past the pub windows and generally run around barking up at the windows if there is a cat on the roof opposite, until she is told off by the landlord.

My friend cannot lean very far in her wheelchair as she has no muscle control below her shoulders and would fall out if she did! But she must have had her face towards the dog in some way or the landlord wouldn't have commented on it afterwards.

Now while I was sat at the table with her while she was stroking the dog, there were five of us and I happened to be turned the other way when the incident occurred (though my other three friends saw it happen). However, the landlord was sat less than four feet away and was watching us all with the dog (not in an aggressive way or anything, it was a very relaxed evening till then). Perhaps if he'd seen someone petting his dog with her face too close he could have pointed it out there and then rather than telling my friend off after the dog had already bitten her.

Anyway, still no sign of an apology and the dog was roaming the bar again today at lunchtime.


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

The dog will continue to roam the bar unless the land lord is reported and he is given a warning. THe lanlord is at fault not the dog, for allowing the dog to be in a situation where its behaviour is going to fail at some point.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

The dogs def need to be barred from the bar. You cant predict the way total strangers will interact with them, special not somewhere with alcohol in the mix!
For the safety of the dogs (Im sure they are lovely and dont deserve to be labelled DDA) they need to be placed out of harms way..


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> I'd have reported him. Had he told the dog off and removed it from the room I might have let it go, but I seriously would report him.


Handicapped person suffering "trauma" from this unwarranted dog agression? Sounds like a no-win no-fee lawyer might be able to really put the wind up this irresponsible landlord.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

potatan said:


> My friend cannot lean very far in her wheelchair as she has no muscle control below her shoulders and would fall out if she did! But she must have had her face towards the dog in some way or the landlord wouldn't have commented on it afterwards.


Errr no. He has good reason to shift blame and responsibility. Dog jumping up, barking, and biting someone's face with no warning growl, no snap, is far more serious than the version of events he would like to portray.

*His dog is unsafe and untrustworthy in a bar* with the general public, who may have no experience of dog handling and shouldn't have to tread on eggs to avoid unpredictable behaviours.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

nfp20 said:


> To be honest I am sick to the back teeth of people thinking that a dog should have to fit in with the way they behave rather than doing as we have always done in the past and respecting that a dog is an animal. I was always taught as a child that before you touch you ask the owner otherwise DON'T touch the dog, dogs bite, My mum used to be very clear if the dog bite you its your own fault for not asking permission first.


What your Mum told you was good advice to keep you out of trouble.

But sorry, the family collies we had would take all sorts of playful "abuse" from children with amazing tolerance and forbearance. When they had had enough they would growl and then find somewhere quiet.

If a Pub landlord has a dog in his bar, he ought to be 100% sure that it's an easy going tolerant sort, that won't react to provocation with aggression, never mind "tickling it's head".


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> To be honest I am sick to the back teeth of people thinking that a dog should have to fit in with the way they behave rather than doing as we have always done in the past and respecting that a dog is an animal. I was always taught as a child that before you touch you ask the owner otherwise DON'T touch the dog, dogs bite, My mum used to be very clear if the dog bite you its your own fault for not asking permission first.


That's ensible advice- but then why is this dog wandering around a pub? If the lndlord does not want people to touch the dog then it should not be allowed in- small children could get too close- and then you have a problem.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Dog wardens' jurisdiction does not extend to pubs. They are empowered to deal with straying and fouling issues only and are not an 'animal police'. 

I would certainly be having a word with the local police on the understanding that you did not want the dog put down (I assume you don't?) and also the licensers of the pub etc. The landlord cannot be allowed to get away with it and if there is even a tiny risk that the dog could nip, it should not be in the pub area.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I would write a letter to the landlord and explain.

Sometimes people get defensive when they are put on the back foot, and maybe at the back of his mind was the claim culture or his dog being put down.

I bet if a letter is written in a reasonable, non judgemental way, then he will listen.

Have to be pretty stupid if he didn't


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