# letter to owner of the returned pupppy do i need to add anything else???



## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Is there anything else I need to add. 

Dear ........., 

Hope you are all well and that your daughter is feeling better. 

Puppy is doing brilliantly and has perked up no end over the last 24 hours. I have tested and prodded, and annoyed and pulled and not an ounce of aggression from him. He isn't even mouthing. He is a little more feisty to his litter mates, but after being away for nearly a week I am not wholly surprised. 

The vet has declared him well and healthy, although the jab has reacted and left a small lump on his neck, which will clear in time. So perhaps this was the cause of his reported behaviour. He is 100% fighting fit. On the way back I put him under stress by taking him into the petrol station with me whilst I paid and then introduced him to various strangers who had a cuddle and he interacted with them the way any puppy should. Sadly they are not born with any biting hibitions and this is a behaviour that needs to be taught by the owner through consistency, patience and training.

So to be frank he is a perfectly normal puppy. 

So down to the nitty gritty of money. I have re advertised him today, but due to the behaviour you have reported it may take some time to find him a suitable home. I have had an older, child free, couple express some interest through a 3rd party and I am waiting to hear from them. I am going to try and sell him for £750 again if I can. The more I get for him the more I can refund you. 

Out of the money from the resale I will have to deduct the £100 deposit, £30 for the vet fee today and boarding costs which I charge at a rate of £20 per week. So you are looking at a maximum return of £600. Obviously dependant on the length of time he is with us. With any luck he will find the perfect home soon. 

However as I can not keep him indefinitely we reserve the right to reduce his sale cost at any point. Where the deductibles will still apply. So worst case scenario is that if I have to sell him for £150 in 3 months time, there will be no refund payable. Hopefully this will not be the case. 

I hope the above is acceptable to you and I will be in touch as soon as he is sold. 

Look forward to hearing from you soon. 

Thanks

Lucy


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

oh and do you think I am being fair....


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Looks reasonable to me 

So £20 a week boarding :thumbup: these two will be down next week


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Hi Lucy

I am assuming that you bred the said pup? why cant the ex owner not have a refund minus the deposit? and vet charges?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> Hi Lucy
> 
> I am assuming that you bred the said pup? why cant the ex owner not have a refund minus the deposit? and vet charges?


Hi, I did breed him. if you read my post 'Urgent Advice Needed' that will give you the backround to the situation. The deposit was non refundable, and the vet charge is payable by him as I sold him a happy healthy pup and he returned a wobbly, miserable one clearly due to lack of care and attention. I would not accept a puppy back in this state without a vet check.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Hi Lucy.Im not a breeder but me and my family have bought many dogs in our lifetime.I think you are being more than fair!!
Have you put yourself in their shoes......you bought a pup,a breed you are not familiar with,over-played with it,not understood its needs etc,decided its more than you can deal with and feel you can return it and get a refund???
I personally would be more inclined to talk further with this family to try and find out why they feel they cannot cope with a nine week old pup (of ANY breed,at this age,because,lets be honest,NO pup of any breed is aggressive(unless ill) at this age)
If it was me returning the pup,i would feel mortified that i wasnt aware of how to deal with a pup and just want the breeder to take and rehome it to a family more suitable......so i still cant understand why they feel they want a full refund?
Plus the vet has given it a full clean bill of health and it is showing no signs of aggression.
I hope some of the breeders will come along and give you their advise,which in all honesty, will be better than mine,as it will be more proffessional.as i would tell him not to expect a penny for his mis-judgement!!


Im so not voicing this to you!! im mad at them for doing this to your poor pup.
You are being more than fair,and understand you need to put a line under this and move forward and find the little man a new home.But what happens if he bad mouthes you and tells everyone your pups are not sound.There are some horrid people out there who may do that.
I will be interested to read what other people say (maybe im just too soft and a tad hormonal lol)


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sounds perfectly fair to be especially as he's like you say - a perfectly normal pup!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Lucy1012 said:


> Hi, I did breed him. if you read my post 'Urgent Advice Needed' that will give you the backround to the situation. The deposit was non refundable, and the vet charge is payable by him as I sold him a happy healthy pup and he returned a wobbly, miserable one clearly due to lack of care and attention. I would not accept a puppy back in this state without a vet check.


what has the ex owner said? do they want a full refund? I feel in this case you are right to not give a full refund.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

i think the letter sounds good and you are being more than reasonable


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> what has the ex owner said? do they want a full refund? I feel in this case you are right to not give a full refund.


He has hinted that is what he is after.

Bearpaw (I think that is your user name ;-) ) I completely understand how you feel. I did think it was odd when he bought all his toys and stuff, I said are you not going to try another pup or breed and he was admamant that was their puppy days over. But my contract states that if the puppy/dog is to be rehomed then this is the way i will do it. I cannot class it as a refund as firstly he handed me back a clearly despressed pup that is going to take some time to cheer up and they allowed him to become dominant and their daughter terrorise for 2 hours at a time. and secondly the vet, a dog behavourist and myslef have proven the puppy to be normal. The owner made me laugh when he said their might be somethingwrong in his head, he runs around like a mad things, bumping his head, then settles down. This is a man that claims to have dog experience. :eek6:


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

I think it sounds good and very reasonable


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Lucy1012 said:


> So down to the nitty gritty of money. I have re advertised him today, but due to the behaviour you have reported it may take some time to find him a suitable home. I have had an older, child free, couple express some interest through a 3rd party and I am waiting to hear from them. *I am going to try and sell him for £750 again if I can.* The more I get for him the more I can refund you.
> 
> *Out of the money from the resale I will have to deduct the £100 deposit, £30 for the vet fee today and boarding costs which I charge at a rate of £20 per week. So you are looking at a maximum return of £600. *Obviously dependant on the length of time he is with us. With any luck he will find the perfect home soon.


Actually at this point I don't think you need to quote figures. Leave money out of it for now. The main thing is you have taken him back and done them a favour in that regard - the dog's future is in your hands and if/when you find him the RIGHT home whether it's for £700 or £7, then that's how it is.

If they are on at you about refunds etc and money then play it down for now because at the moment the pup's welfare is more important, and maybe they need to understand you care more about that than money.

I might be wrong, I am sure others will comment, but if they had kept him and tried harder to work through the issues then refunds wouldn't come into it.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> Looks reasonable to me
> 
> So £20 a week boarding :thumbup: these two will be down next week


lol please don't lol £20 is due to the fact i still have 5 puppies in the house besides this one, so 1 extra is not really going to put me out. Besides the fact they devour a 15kg sack of food in 4 - 5 days.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Lucy.im sorry i didnt mean to come across so...negatively? (not sure if thats the right word).
If you look through the training section,just on this website,how many people are having problems with their pups mouthing and growling at around this age group...its perfectly normal.
Most people would seek advise on how to get through this period of behaviour,and not give up so readily.He was obviously looking for a get-out clause.
I understand you have to do what your contract says,but please,do tell him,that the pup has been certified as healthy and normal,and that this is not through any fault of the pups!!!
I promise not to say anymore,it wont be helping,sorry,i just am so cross!! xx


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> Actually at this point I don't think you need to quote figures. Leave money out of it for now. The main thing is you have taken him back and done them a favour in that regard - the dog's future is in your hands and if/when you find him the RIGHT home whether it's for £700 or £7, then that's how it is.
> 
> If they are on at you about refunds etc and money then play it down for now because at the moment the pup's welfare is more important, and maybe they need to understand you care more about that than money.
> 
> I might be wrong, I am sure others will comment, but if they had kept him and tried harder to work through the issues then refunds wouldn't come into it.


i did consider that side, but he asked for cash when he dropped him off, and I have had a text and email, never actually asking but hinting. So I am not sure about how to go around it. Maybe I should just dodge it for now. I don't know :-( Never expeected to have someone change their mind, I suppose you know it always a possibility but I am uaully smitten with a new puppy within hours, and would do anything to make it work...


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Bearpaw said:


> Lucy.im sorry i didnt mean to come across so...negatively? (not sure if thats the right word).
> If you look through the training section,just on this website,how many people are having problems with their pups mouthing and growling at around this age group...its perfectly normal.
> Most people would seek advise on how to get through this period of behaviour,and not give up so readily.He was obviously looking for a get-out clause.
> I understand you have to do what your contract says,but please,do tell him,that the pup has been certified as healthy and normal,and that this is not through any fault of the pups!!!
> I promise not to say anymore,it wont be helping,sorry,i just am so cross!! xx


lol no i agree with you no offence taken, i promise ;-) , I have managed to get a whole litter to stop mouthing my hands (most of the time) through consistency and training. My poor pj bottoms can't say the same I come out with shreaded trousers like the incredible hulk lol


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Lucy1012 said:


> i did consider that side, but he asked for cash when he dropped him off, and I have had a text and email, never actually asking but hinting. So I am not sure about how to go around it. Maybe I should just dodge it for now. I don't know :-(


I just think if you start quoting actual figures then you have no choice but to honour them. Almost like presenting him with accounts. At the moment you could just explain what costs will be involved, perhaps? Difficult one. In his place I'd probably want to know exactly how much I'm gonna get back... (well no, I'd not be that mercenary) but for you it's not so simple. There's also the fact that if you sent him the above with all the figures in he could use that against you if he didn't feel you were being fair, and could argue for more.


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

If you have not refunded him anything surely he is in his rights to demand the puppy back and then he could try and sell him himself. I think I would try to give him some money back now so he is unable to do this, even if it is only a proportion of the money.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Maybe I should leave figures out of it until i know exactly when he will go to a new home, expenses incurred and sale price. May cause less confusion.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Insane said:


> If you have not refunded him anything surely he is in his rights to demand the puppy back and then he could try and sell him himself. I think I would try to give him some money back now so he is unable to do this, even if it is only a proportion of the money.


This crossed my mind too, he would have to take me to court to get the puppy back I can assure you. He broke the terms of our contract when he let his daughter play with him as if he was like a bl*(dy playstation ggrrr lol


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Lucy1012 said:


> This crossed my mind too, he would have to take me to court to get the puppy back I can assure you. He broke the terms of our contract when he let his daughter play with him as if he was like a bl*(dy playstation ggrrr lol


I would still be very careful, you could get caught up in a legal battle where you are unable to sell the puppy to anyone else. I would as suggested not mention figures to him so not to get his back up.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Insane said:


> I would still be very careful, you could get caught up in a legal battle where you are unable to sell the puppy to anyone else. I would as suggested not mention figures to him so not to get his back up.


I know what you mean, I so want to handle this correctly. But do you think I should take the figures out and just advise him what he will be gatting back when the pup is sold? Luckily he does not seem like a vindictive man, maybe a little too meek and mild and a bit naive.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2010)

I would leave numbers out of this. What you do with the puppy now its back in your care is up to you.

:thumbup:


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Lucy1012 said:


> I know what you mean, I so want to handle this correctly. But do you think I should take the figures out and just advise him what he will be gatting back when the pup is sold? Luckily he does not seem like a vindictive man, maybe a little too meek and mild and a bit naive.


Yes leave numbers out of it, maybe mention the deposit is non-refundable but that is it for now.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

I'm not really sure, i have read your whole thread and i think i would go with your letter as it explains quite clearly how much and why! I would prefer that if i were the person who had purchased the pup and returned it. But then saying that i would never be in this situation over a little play biting! I think he needs a behaviourist for his daughter!!! :thumbup: :lol: :lol:

Glad the pupster is back with you though. X


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Matrix/Logan said:


> I'm not really sure, i have read your whole thread and i think i would go with your letter as it explains quite clearly how much and why! I would prefer that if i were the person who had purchased the pup and returned it. But then saying that i would never be in this situation over a little play biting! I think he needs a behaviourist for his daughter!!! :thumbup: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Glad the pupster is back with you though. X


oohhh that's it go and confuse me lol... maybe I will wait for his next contact and assess the tone and take it from there....


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

How about splitting it down the middle?
Offer him half the purchase price back NOW. If he then starts whinging about it, maybe that's when you negotiate the rest with regard to re-advertising and boarding.

What is written in your contract? At the end of the day of the contract states a full refund, then you really have to honour it. The puppy is not sick, is not 'faulty goods' as such but is - end of the day - just a mismatch. A different pup from the litter might have been a better match, or just a different breed. People often make mistakes like that. A full refund isn't unreasonable. Give the customer the benefit of the doubt, perhaps? I'm not on his side just trying to see all angles.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> How about splitting it down the middle?
> Offer him half the purchase price back NOW. If he then starts whinging about it, maybe that's when you negotiate the rest with regard to re-advertising and boarding.
> 
> What is written in your contract? At the end of the day of the contract states a full refund, then you really have to honour it. The puppy is not sick, is not 'faulty goods' as such but is - end of the day - just a mismatch. A different pup from the litter might have been a better match, or just a different breed. People often make mistakes like that. A full refund isn't unreasonable. Give the customer the benefit of the doubt, perhaps? I'm not on his side just trying to see all angles.


I too am trying to see if from his side, I matched them up well with this puppy, from the little i saw of them. If what they are telling me this puppy has had a personailty transplant. It may be that he developed more confidence away from the litter and saw an oppurtunity to become top dog. My cotract states pretty much what the letter says. It all depends on the resale amoung acheived minus these expenses. So he should possibly already know all this. I think the fear is not knowing really how to deal with this, and how he would respond. I can certainly see both sides of the coin.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> he handed me back a clearly despressed pup that is going to take some time to cheer up and they allowed him to become dominant and their daughter terrorise for 2 hours at a time.


How old is this puppy and how old was he when they took him home?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> How old is this puppy and how old was he when they took him home?


7 weeks 5 days when they took him home 8 week 4 days when they bought him back. 12 hours before the 7 day deadline for a refund for a puppy that didn't pass vet checks or their vet found a problem mine didn't. As it happens he has admitted that his vet commented on how healthy the pup was.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

If it is in your contract, then I don't think it's unreasonable. Personally, I would have given him his money back and be glad I got the pup back rather than them selling it on (there's nothing to stop them doing that).

I've just read your posts and from what you've said there is nothing wrong with the pup and should not be difficult to find him a new home. I'm not sure why you would need to get a behaviourist in (although can understand why you wanted your vet to check him over so fair enough if you want to deduct that cost). 

How did you find out that the daughter was a problem? Sorry, this is not meant harshly so please don't take it this way, but I would be glad to have him back and have a rethink as to how you vet your future owners. I know I discover far more about puppy buyers from seeing the way they react to my dog and the puppies than from just talking to them - it enables you to read through the lines of what is being said.

Put it down to experience - it's all part of being a breed I'm afraid. I'm sure you'll find him a lovely home - he is still very young yet. 

Just as a thought too, do you have any others on the waiting list that you had to turn away?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> If it is in your contract, then I don't think it's unreasonable. Personally, I would have given him his money back and be glad I got the pup back rather than them selling it on (there's nothing to stop them doing that).
> 
> I've just read your posts and from what you've said there is nothing wrong with the pup and should not be difficult to find him a new home. I'm not sure why you would need to get a behaviourist in (although can understand why you wanted your vet to check him over so fair enough if you want to deduct that cost).
> 
> ...


to be fair I don't know his daughter was the problem. but he said that the puppy got snappy an hour or 2 in to playing with him, he removed the puppy and put him in his crate 10-15 mins later he would be fine. I spoke to the behaviourist to see if the treatment of the puppy could be a cause of the reaction they got from him, it was only a telephone call. I have used her for 6 years when our boxer had 'issues' peeing on my bed for one. ;-) I suppose vetting owners is something that takes practice. I think their heart was in the right place but prehaps not got the will power to see it through.

I had about 4 people wanting a dog on my waiting list, but had it on my computer and have prematurely deleted it. I considered giving him a full refund, but I think sometimes this small financial kick may encourage him to be a bit more honest with himself and the breeder should he ever decide to get another puppy.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> If it is in your contract, then I don't think it's unreasonable. Personally, I would have given him his money back and be glad I got the pup back rather than them selling it on (there's nothing to stop them doing that).


Mulling all this over and thinking about it, I have to agree with Rocco. There are a lot of worse possible scenarios.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Ive only read this thread and not the your other... 

I can't understand when you received the puppy back after him only having the pup for a week, that once you had the pup vet checked then why you didn't refund him then, minus the non refundable deposit?

What if he comes back for the pup?? 

Like you have said you are going to sell the pup on..


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

If the dog has been vet and temperment tested and appears to be fine as the letter indicates the I personally would be refunding the owner the full purchase price, minus vets fees incurred since it being returned. We have in our contract that we will refund the purchase price in the first week, no questions asked. I would rather get the pup back and rehome it rather than get into an argument with people and risk the pup staying in an incorrect environment. Thankfully we've never needed to refund a pup, but in your position i think thats what i would do and then you havent got to worry about it. I do feel that as the previous owner has not done anything to affect the sale-ability of the pup (it really should only be going at this age now anyway so you will have no problem selling it im sure) and they had it such a short time so they shouldnt be out of pocket. Clearly they didnt think things through before getting the pup, but at least they were brave enough to admit their mistake.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

It's a well written letter, fair and follows the usual guidlines of returned pups. Hopefully you will have a new home within the week which means that the man will have a refund minus deposit and vet bill.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> Hi Lucy
> 
> I am assuming that you bred the said pup? why cant the ex owner not have a refund minus the deposit? and vet charges?


Because dogs are NOT like cars DK ! you don't take them on test drives, neither are they like a new dress, you don't take them back if they don't fit in!!! This is how most breeders would work! I think Lucy is being very generous as it happens! taking into account that the ex owner appears to have just 'changed' their minds!

DT


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. I have taken all opinions on board and I will have a think. Just so sad for the pup that he has to go through all of this..


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Been thinking about this and I would not charge for boarding as if he has to pay you to keep the dog then surely the pup is still technically his, so his to take back anytime.


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

How is the pup today, poor thing.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

tbo i'd be inclinded to give him a refund less the deposit and get rid of the bloke . at least you got your pup back .i didn't and i learnt later they'd sold him on and i have no idea where he is and its caused me a lot of stress.did you get all the paperwork back? whatever you decide good luck. x


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Ive only read this thread and not the your other...
> 
> I can't understand when you received the puppy back after him only having the pup for a week, that once you had the pup vet checked then why you didn't refund him then, minus the non refundable deposit?
> 
> ...


I haven't offered him a refund until the puppy is resold. He has reported that he is an agressive puppy and although I can see no sign of this I have to take it seriously and consider where I rehome him. No children, Ridgeback experience etc. this may not be so easy and take some time. I handed a happy, healthy, laid back puppy to laid back people, sowhere along the line both he and I got it very wrong. He handed me back a depressed, poorly pup. Granted this could be due to the stress of the move then the drive back, but the poor little mite now has to make that transistion all over again, but this time I will be more cautious about who this will be with. I will not put him through this again.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Insane said:


> How is the pup today, poor thing.


He is fine thanks, he is happier, still not 100%. I just think it will take him some time to get over his ordeal. But everybody is right, his welfare is the main concern and I have him back. I just feel so cross at them and cross at myself for allowing it to happen. :-(


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Lucy please dont be too hard on yourself.Im sure you will do the right thing,whatever that may be.Far better the pup is back with you now,than advertised a month or two down the line on some website. The main thing is the pup is healthy and im certain the right family are out there just waiting to meet this little fella xxxx


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Can i ask what you would do if the person you sold this pup to decides he wants the pup back, instead of a refund?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

hazel pritchard said:


> Can i ask what you would do if the person you sold this pup to decides he wants the pup back, instead of a refund?


Should he do just that, and me just saying no didn't work. Then I would be prepared to fight tooth and nail. He is clearly not suited to this breed, a mistake on both our parts and thinking about it I would offer him a 100% refund to appease him, so can maybe see your point ;-) But I really want to try and discourage him from test driving puppies again.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Because dogs are NOT like cars DK ! you don't take them on test drives, neither are they like a new dress, you don't take them back if they don't fit in!!! This is how most breeders would work! I think Lucy is being very generous as it happens! taking into account that the ex owner appears to have just 'changed' their minds!


While, in the eyes of the law, puppies are 'goods', the first priority has to be the puppy. And sorry, but a good breeders *would* take back a puppy under these circumstances. The puppy buyer would have been quite within his rights to sell him on and never contact the breeder so the fact that he has come back to her is a plus. Lucy has admitted there were mistakes on both sides - so regardless of the legality of it - and a contract of sale has very little relevance as the puppy will come under the sale of goods act, regardless of contract signed - I would give him back his money and put it down to experience.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Sounds fair to me.  But was there a sales aggreement or anything written about returns? If so, you might want to check it. If nothing was written, then I think you are being more than fair. And the puppy is well out of it.
As far as the Sale of Goods act goes, if it wasn`t bought online or on credit, and isn`t `faulty` or `damaged` (which I assume the man was trying for when he implied the pup `wasn`t right in the head` ) there is no obligation for a return & refund.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

If this man thinks an eight week old puppy can be played with for 2 hours, he is not suited to any breed!


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> If this man thinks an eight week old puppy can be played with for 2 hours, he is not suited to any breed!


Never a truer word said....


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Sounds fair to me.  But was there a sales aggreement or anything written about returns? If so, you might want to check it. If nothing was written, then I think you are being more than fair. And the puppy is well out of it.


I have 2 eventualities in my contract (will now be adding a 3rd) Dog not fit for sale i.e. his vet declaring that the puppy is unhealthy, has a defect my vet missed etc.. the 2nd for rehoming (I never for 1 second thought this would be after 6 days) that if he offers me the puppy for rehoming he will receive the resale value minus expenses.

Maybe if I just ask him to refer to his contract (which I think he has returned thinking about it) with regards to rehoming and let him figure it out for himself.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

i just wanted to say i read your previous thread and this one and a few words are going through my head

Urgh - and Stupid man!

A PUPPY DOES NOT SHOW AGRESSIVE BEHAVIOUR! ITS A BABY! 

I don't believe for one second he had a lab - unless he got it as an older dog and has never had a puppy so doesn't know what hes doing. Stupid....

poor puppy


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

It must be the hardest thing in the world to be a caring breeder and find the right homes. Experience with a breed has to start somewhere, and it is good breeders like you who have to take that chance. My newfies' breeder was very particular, but she told me they had two puppies brought back after 8 months because they got too big! What did these people expect a giant dog to do - shrink? I could never do it, and you are doing your best. I wouldn't want to give him a refund at all in your position!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Because dogs are NOT like cars DK ! you don't take them on test drives, neither are they like a new dress, you don't take them back if they don't fit in!!! This is how most breeders would work! I think Lucy is being very generous as it happens! taking into account that the ex owner appears to have just 'changed' their minds!
> 
> DT


As much as i agree DT i also see it from the owners side, he has been man enough to admit it early enough, it maybe that they don't fit with the breed or whatever. If/When i breed if a pup gets returned I will offer full refund as i would feel at least i have the pup back. (after a vet check of course. Its far better the pip is back with breeder then in a rescue with problems.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

DKDREAM said:


> As much as i agree DT i also see it from the owners side, he has been man enough to admit it early enough, it maybe that they don't fit with the breed or whatever. If/When i breed if a pup gets returned I will offer full refund as i would feel at least i have the pup back. (after a vet check of course. Its far better the pip is back with breeder then in a rescue with problems.


I totally agree - the pup has been gone less than a week and should be easily rehomed

Once I had the KC paperwork (and the pup was not transferred into the new owners name) then I would offer them a refund (less expenses) and then have no further dealings with the family.


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## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> I have 2 eventualities in my contract (will now be adding a 3rd) Dog not fit for sale i.e. his vet declaring that the puppy is unhealthy, has a defect my vet missed etc.. the 2nd for rehoming (I never for 1 second thought this would be after 6 days) that if he offers me the puppy for rehoming he will receive the resale value minus expenses.
> 
> Maybe if I just ask him to refer to his contract (which I think he has returned thinking about it) with regards to rehoming and let him figure it out for himself.


First, can I just say that although this is probably a real pain for you, I am so glad the little pup is back in your hands. The fella who bought it obviously doesn't have a clue.

I agree that it might not be best to mention specific cash in your letter. Maybe make some sort of comment that the pup will be resold under the terms and conditions of the contract and you will contact him again soon?

That way he wont be left thinking it might take a long time to resell and ask for the pup back, and wont worry about not getting the whole of the money back and be tempted to sell it himself with all the complications that could cause.


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## BigBearsRule (Jun 24, 2009)

The letter and your terms sounded more than fair to me. Im just glad that the pup is ok.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Lucy1012 said:


> I handed a happy, healthy, laid back puppy to laid back people, sowhere along the line both he and I got it very wrong. He handed me back a depressed, poorly pup. .


I know exactly how you feel hun, because a very similar thing happened to me with a puppy from Evie's litter. The people seemed excellent prospective owners for a border collie - they had two children but they already had a labradoodle so the children knew how to behave around dogs and were fine with our lot when they came to visit the puppies here. They had been to Crufts and talked to border collie owners at Discover Dogs, and the boy (he was 11/12 ish) wanted a border collie because he was going to do agility with it when he was old enough. I took the pup all the way to Norwich so that I could vet their home, and they had a secure garden; their labradoodle was happy and well-looked after, and they had prepared well for their new pup with a crate for him to sleep in, a new bed, and lots of new toys. They were even sensible enough to ask me to keep him an extra week because they were due to go on holiday the week he would be ready to go to his new home.

In a nutshell, they seemed ideal - and the last thing I expected was a phone call the very next day saying they didn't want him because he was so vicious he had bitten the girl through her jeans and made her leg bleed. (This is a 9 week old puppy we are talking about here!  ) We went straight back to Norwich to bring him back - and, surprise surprise, there wasn't even a mark on the girl's leg, and the jeans he had bitten through were "in the wash" when I asked to see them. I don't know to this day why they had decided they didn't want the pup, but the lie about him being vicious was just that - a lie. I took him straight back and, because he had only been there overnight, I gave her all her money back except her deposit and my expenses in going to Norwich and back twice.

So, to the point of this looooong post - don't beat yourself up about getting it wrong about prospective owners. Even the best seeming owners can turn out to be not what you expected further down the line (and oh boy, could I tell you a story about that!  ) - but you did nothing wrong in selling your poor pup to them in the first instance, and you are doing all you can to rectify the situation now.

As for my pup - well, even though we could have sold him about three times over, we decided to keep him. He grew into a wonderful happy boy who loves people and other dogs - it's my Quinny!


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> oh and do you think I am being fair....


NO!!!! They returned 100% of the pup to you, you should give them 100% of they money they gave you!

If I was them, I would be preparing a small claims against you if I did not get my money back ASAP. Why should they wait foir their money, and a reduced amount? Regardless of whether you believe claims of biting or not!


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

TimeLord said:


> NO!!!! They returned 100% of the pup to you, you should give them 100% of they money they gave you!
> 
> If I was them, I would be preparing a small claims against you if I did not get my money back ASAP. Why should they wait foir their money, and a reduced amount? Regardless of whether you believe claims of biting or not!


100% of my pup, I am assuming you mean in body only... As mentally his not the same puppy I handed over to them...


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> As much as i agree DT i also see it from the owners side, he has been man enough to admit it early enough, it maybe that they don't fit with the breed or whatever. If/When i breed if a pup gets returned I will offer full refund as i would feel at least i have the pup back. (after a vet check of course. Its far better the pip is back with breeder then in a rescue with problems.


I agree with you! Good breeders do refund the full amount paid for pup! The true mark of a good breeder. Anything less is a breeder that is just in it of the money, and best to stay clear!


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

TimeLord said:


> I agree with you! Good breeders do refund the full amount paid for pup! The true mark of a good breeder. Anything less is a breeder that is just in it of the money, and best to stay clear!


I am beginning to take offence towards your comments to be honest.

You do not know me, nor anything about my ethics as a breeder.

I accept that you may feel that my suggested method/letter is unfair, that I take on board, as I did ask for your opinion. But to suggest that my reasons behind not offering a 100% refund is money motivated is just untrue. I am not going to justify myself to you as personally although I made a bad judgement with this family I am not entirely to blame and your rudeness doesn't not warrant me to do so.


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> I am beginning to take offence towards your comments to be honest.
> 
> You do not know me, nor anything about my ethics as a breeder.
> 
> I accept that you may feel that my suggested method/letter is unfair, that I take on board, as I did ask for your opinion. But to suggest that my reasons behind not offering a 100% refund is money motivated is just untrue. I am not going to justify myself to you as personally although I made a bad judgement with this family I am not entirely to blame and your rudeness doesn't not warrant me to do so.


I am not being rude. You asked for opinions and I gave you mine. My Auntie has breed dogs for decades and always gave full refunds and always just glad to get the puppy back, if wrong decision was made.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

TimeLord said:


> NO!!!! They returned 100% of the pup to you, you should give them 100% of they money they gave you!
> 
> If I was them, I would be preparing a small claims against you if I did not get my money back ASAP. Why should they wait foir their money, and a reduced amount? Regardless of whether you believe claims of biting or not!


If you went to small claims court you would lose - she is entitled to deduct any expenses she has incurred because of their treatment of the pup she took back from them, plus any expenses she incurs in rehoming him. Why on earth should she end up out of pocket because of these plonkers? :frown2:


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> If you went to small claims court you would lose - she is entitled to deduct any expenses she has incurred because of their treatment of the pup she took back from them, plus any expenses she incurs in rehoming him. Why on earth should she end up out of pocket because of these plonkers? :frown2:


The guy who bought the pup will also be out of pocket, he will have bought food, toys and vets bill possibly (swings and roundabouts). He returned 100% of the puppy, he should get 100% refund. Just my opinion, please don't give me another red mark on my profile!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

If the person who purchased the pup paid a non refundable deposit and understood it as such then sheis entitled to deduct that amount from the amount refunded. Also the pup has had to visit the vets due to the condition it was in when returned she is entitled to deduct that also along with any other expenses she inccurs whilst finding this pupa new home.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

TimeLord said:


> The guy who bought the pup will also be out of pocket, he will have bought food, toys and vets bill possibly (swings and roundabouts). He returned 100% of the puppy, he should get 100% refund. Just my opinion, please don't give me another red mark on my profile!


If he is out of pocket he might just think before he buys his next puppy. He didn't return 100% of the puppy he bought he returned a miserable one that will need work before it can be rehomed.


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

Freyja said:


> If the person who purchased the pup paid a non refundable deposit and understood it as such then sheis entitled to deduct that amount from the amount refunded. Also the pup has had to visit the vets due to the condition it was in when returned she is entitled to deduct that also along with any other expenses she inccurs whilst finding this pupa new home.


What about the weeks boarding he gave the pup? As I said, swings and roundabouts. The RIGHT thing is to give full refund, and just be glad to have the pup back. A breeder whos priority and focus is money, is one most people would stay clear of.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Time lord did you READ Lucy's previous thread?


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

hawksport said:


> If he is out of pocket he might just think before he buys his next puppy. He didn't return 100% of the puppy he bought he returned a miserable one that will need work before it can be rehomed.


Maybe the pup has an underlying health problem (gentic?), that may take the vets a while to diagnose? Who knows...But the good breeders I know, would give a full and immediate refund. The guy paid before he took the pup, thus should get refund immediately.

I can see both sides here, but I also know what the right thing to do is!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

TimeLord said:


> What about the weeks boarding he gave the pup?


Maybe the breeder should pay him for looking after her pup for the week


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

ad_1980 said:


> Time lord did you READ Lucy's previous thread?


No? Why? Do you think that would change my opinion?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

TimeLord said:


> Maybe the pup has an underlying health problem (gentic?), that may take the vets a while to diagnose? Who knows...But the good breeders I know, would give a full and immediate refund. The guy paid before he took the pup, thus should get refund immediately.
> 
> I can see both sides here, but I also know what the right thing to do is!


The right thing to do is to concentrate on the puppy.... which I am.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

probably if you understood why Lucy should not refund the guy fully.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I havent read all this thread but i did read your other.


I think your letter is really well written but this is what i would do.

I would offer him a 50% refund immediatly, and tell him that you will refund the balance minus deposit and any other fees incurred once he has been found a new home. I wouldnt tell him what to expect on terms of more money, other than you will send any balance along with a breakdown of costs to him. Pop a signature form on a copy of the letter, and also say that by him agreeing to this arrangement he is handing over full ownership to you.

I wouldnt charge him for advertising, or for boarding really (unless its already in the contract he signed).

In the meantime i wouldnt mention about him seeing a vet, or any other assessments, they would be part of the breakdown of costs. Due to the owners claims about that pup i would probably cover my arse for future owners and have a behaviourist come and assess the pup. We all know the pup is absoloutly normal but i would cover my backside! What happens if its new owners complain cos it nips their daughter, you could be in hot water having sold him on as you were allerted to his "agressiveness". Utter crap i know but hopefully you see what i mean!

Hope this makes sense!

xx

Editing to say, if he doesnt agree to it, i would be more inclined just to give a full refund immediatly and be done with him!


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Lucy1012 said:


> The right thing to do is to concentrate on the puppy.... which I am.


lucy can we see a pic of the little darlng?

I would have him within a second  but unfortunately no more dogs are allowed at home - my parents have a strict two dog policy however now they've gone and said, should my older dog pass on we won't be having any more dogs Grrr


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## TimeLord (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> The right thing to do is to concentrate on the puppy.... which I am.


Yes, true. But if you are so glad to have the pup back, why not give a full refund (maybe minus just the deposit) to be done with the man?

But you are not really concentrating on the puppy, you are logged on here discussing "money" etc....


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

TimeLord said:


> Yes, true. But if you are so glad to have the pup back, why not give a full refund (maybe minus just the deposit) to be done with the man?
> 
> But you are not really concentrating on the puppy, you are logged on here discussing "money" etc....


She's asking advice on how to handle the situation darn it  That's why a forum is around. For people to ask question and have a discussion. Leave her alone.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

ad_1980 said:


> lucy can we see a pic of the little darlng?
> 
> I would have him within a second  but unfortunately no more dogs are allowed at home - my parents have a strict two dog policy however now they've gone and said, should my older dog pass on we won't be having any more dogs Grrr


Of course, this was sent to me when he was in his new home.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

gorgeous xx no ad you can't have him, lol.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

He is pretty


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Lucy1012 said:


> Of course, this was sent to me when he was in his new home.


Oh My god he's so cute!!!!! I love his face you could just squish him! he he.



alaun said:


> gorgeous xx no ad you can't have him, lol.


 so mean


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I've only recently joined this forum and I don't want to hijack this thread from Lucy, but can someone tell me how a member can post with the word "banned" beneath their name?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I've only recently joined this forum and I don't want to hijack this thread from Lucy, but can someone tell me how a member can post with the word "banned" beneath their name?


lol hijack away all these posts and I am still sat here undecided lol

I think he/she has been banned since the posts


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks, Lucy. I would send your letter, recorded delivery so he can't say he hasn't had it, but I would not make mention of what amount you intend to ask when you resell. Then he won't be disappointed, will he? If he is expecting £600 and only gets, say, £300, he is going to create!


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## Zayna (Apr 19, 2009)

this exact same thing happened to a friend of mine... he sold a rotweiler pup to a family and they kept the pup a week before dumping it back on my friend's doorstep saying that it had 'showed agression' towards their 10 yr old daughter and that she was frightened of it. they wanted a refund but when my friend saw what a state the pup was in (shaking and nervous... not the same pup he had been when he left them) he told them to clear off his property. they left but a couple of days later the same people attempted to buy an alsation pup off my friend's friend... he wouldnt sell it to them... dont know what they were playing at??????


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Obviously think a puppy is a toy for the kids to play about with and when he reacts, they blame the breeder and the pup. Unfortunately, these idiots will get a pup somewhere, from someone who is not fussy and won't take it back.

A couple of years ago I went to pick up a pupil and this fabulous golden retriever puppy came to the door with him. He was 8 weeks old and a good pedigree. Adorable. Two weeks on and I ask how the puppy is doing and get told his mum had sold him on the internet because he was vicious! In my book there is no such thing as a vicious golden retriever anyway, but at that age? I expect she had let the kids maul it about. Next thing she has gone and bought an 8 week old border collie. That disappeared too after a few weeks after it had got through next door's fence and, apparently, killed one of their rabbits. Obviously, someone in that house was making these puppies nasty.


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## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

I sometimes despair about all this. Are they mistaking the normal biting that a pup does for aggression? Surely all they would have to do is phone the breeder for advice - I am sure most reputable ones would be only too happy to give advice.

Poor dogs get shoved around from pillar to post, it's just not right.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> As much as i agree DT i also see it from the owners side, he has been man enough to admit it early enough, it maybe that they don't fit with the breed or whatever. If/When i breed if a pup gets returned I will offer full refund as i would feel at least i have the pup back. (after a vet check of course. Its far better the pip is back with breeder then in a rescue with problems.


I agree with this totally...
And i really think 6 days in another enviroment/home will not affect an 8-9 week ld puppy.

At the end of the day.. He could of put the pup back for sale in local ads and you may never have known where the pup may have ended up...If someone had brought one of my pups back.. I would thank my lucky stars the buyer was decent enough to bring the pup back rather selling on.. And i would have handed full refund over there and then.. And I mean full refund...

Best advertising is word of mouth...

And the last thing I would want is for this guy to be telling all his mates what has gone on.. ( Its your word against his) whether you think he has test driven your puppy or not..

To me it doesn't all seem fair.. as you have said previously.. and you have said that the pup is fine... and vet checked..


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Lucy1012 said:


> 100% of my pup, I am assuming you mean in body only... As mentally his not the same puppy I handed over to them...


TBH if it went to court like Timelord said.. I doubt you would be able to prove the pup changed in any way....


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

I have bred Rhodesian Ridgebacks for nearly 25 years. I had a similar situation with my first litter. A vet and his wife bought a beautiful, well-adjusted puppy from me but after a few weeks were saying that she was frightened of this and that and obviously things just weren't working out. I drove straight down to their home (at my expense) and returned *all* of their money to them and brought my beautiful puppy home. I assessed her for a while - a completely normal puppy - and managed to find a lovely home for her. She lived a long and very happy life with a family who loved and appreciated her.

My feelings on the matter (and I'm sorry if it sounds a bit harsh, but I'm being honest) - be grateful that he has brought the puppy back to you (you haven't even had to go to collect him) and give him all his money back and get the matter over and done with. (I have never and will never take deposits.) It all could have been so much worse ...


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Lucy1012 said:


> Hi, I did breed him. if you read my post 'Urgent Advice Needed' that will give you the backround to the situation. The deposit was non refundable, and the vet charge is payable by him as I sold him a happy healthy pup and he returned a wobbly, miserable one clearly due to lack of care and attention. I would not accept a puppy back in this state without a vet check.


Nice  No matter how old or what condition my pups/dogs were in I would'nt be rude I would be glad to get the pup back out of harms way. Do you care about your dogs????


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

You would think you would be safe selling to a vet, wouldn't you? I don't blame Lucy for being angry about this. There is a lot to be said either way, to refunding in full and getting it over with, or keeping just the deposit. I am very glad I never did any breeding!


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

to be honest, i know somewhere in this thread you have already mentioned that if the man wanted the puppy back ( which he is obviously entitled to do) then you would refund him??? why not just refund him now and the puppy is fully yours again? as others have said you have had the best possible outcome for the puppy, then man bought him back to you instead of selling him to someone else without your knowledge? i would think he is thinking to himself that with no money coming back to him if it took months for you to find a suitable home as per your letter then he would be better coming to get him back and re sell him i would count yourself lucky the little man is back and refund him
sorry, just read that you wrote he could possibly get £150 back if it took 3 months as the worst case senario, i dont think the person would wait after paying £750 for him? i am not saying it is right and less than a week is ridiculous but you do have him back?


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Ridgielover said:


> I have bred Rhodesian Ridgebacks for nearly 25 years. I had a similar situation with my first litter. A vet and his wife bought a beautiful, well-adjusted puppy from me but after a few weeks were saying that she was frightened of this and that and obviously things just weren't working out. I drove straight down to their home (at my expense) and returned *all* of their money to them and brought my beautiful puppy home. I assessed her for a while - a completely normal puppy - and managed to find a lovely home for her. She lived a long and very happy life with a family who loved and appreciated her.
> 
> My feelings on the matter (and I'm sorry if it sounds a bit harsh, but I'm being honest) - be grateful that he has brought the puppy back to you (you haven't even had to go to collect him) and give him all his money back and get the matter over and done with. (I have never and will never take deposits.) It all could have been so much worse ...


You sound like you were a very good breeder and loved all your dogs  Very sound advice :thumbup:


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Thank you, flufffluff39, how nice of you to say that


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Ridgielover said:


> Thank you, flufffluff39, how nice of you to say that


My pleasure  I had 2 litters of pups! Granted they were x's but still have the same policies as any breeder. I tell the new owners any problems get in touch and I would refund and take pups/dogs back anytime even if they were 12 yr old or over


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## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm not a breeder nor am i an expert on the practice of selling puppies however... yes the man bought the puppy back in a worse shape than he left but to be honest if it was me... i'd be glad that he bought the dog back instead of abusing it, selling it on or worse. I would refund the guy his money minus the deposit and minus the vet fee. I really don't think making him wait is any fairer than him bringing the pup back after less than a week.

If you care about your pup you should just be glad you can rehome him with the RIGHT person. I think it would be unethical to make this guy wait for his refund to be honest. You wouldn't accept it in a shop if you returned goods so don't see why this should be any different?

Not trying to sound cold or callous just think making him wait isn't making it right.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> My feelings on the matter (and I'm sorry if it sounds a bit harsh, but I'm being honest) - be grateful that he has brought the puppy back to you (you haven't even had to go to collect him) and give him all his money back and get the matter over and done with. (I have never and will never take deposits.) It all could have been so much worse ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by DKDREAM
> As much as i agree DT i also see it from the owners side, he has been man enough to admit it early enough, it maybe that they don't fit with the breed or whatever. If/When i breed if a pup gets returned I will offer full refund as i would feel at least i have the pup back. (after a vet check of course. Its far better the pip is back with breeder then in a rescue with problems.
> 
> I agree with this totally...
> ...


I have to agree with all this - I can understand your frustration, but that is part of being a breeder. There are many who would have just sold the pup on - have a look in the freeads - so I would be grateful that he brought him back to you, refund him and then concentrate on finding the pup a new home or keep him yourself. Are you not keeping a pup from this litter?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> If you went to small claims court you would lose - she is entitled to deduct any expenses she has incurred because of their treatment of the pup she took back from them, plus any expenses she incurs in rehoming him. *Why on earth should she end up out of pocket because of these plonkers?* :frown2:


Totally agree!!!!


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Totally agree!!!!


Out of pocket??? So all about the money then  Beggars belief really  I thought breeders were in it to keep the breed in good health not worry about being out of pocket!!! Jeeeeeeessssseee :confused1:


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> Out of pocket??? So all about the money then  Beggars belief really  I thought breeders were in it to keep the breed in good health not worry about being out of pocket!!! Jeeeeeeessssseee :confused1:


No. its not. But the dog is back, and ok now. So now she's thinking about the money. The pup was first in her thoughts.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Spellweaver
> If you went to small claims court you would lose - she is entitled to deduct any expenses she has incurred because of their treatment of the pup she took back from them, plus any expenses she incurs in rehoming him. Why on earth should she end up out of pocket because of these plonkers?


Well assuming it's all about the money then that would be the case, however, the man brought the dog back to her. He could have, and would have been legally entitled to, sell the pup on and recouped all of his £750 - who knows - he may have got more for it.

As a breeder you have to make a choice - are you doing it for the money or are you doing it ethically with the pups as a priority. And they may well be plonkers, but no one forces a breeder to sell them a puppy. The vetting process is extremely important and Lucy herself has said she made an error of judgement and is inexperienced.


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> No. its not. But the dog is back, and ok now. So now she's thinking about the money. The pup was first in her thoughts.


OK  Just sounds to me like all she cares about is the money and a few others have mentioned the fact that at least the pup is safe!! As long as she brought it up to full health and then sold/sells it then its ok. I would keep it myself as its had a bad start in life anyway. Hope everything turns out alright for all parties involved


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Gotta love it when you are attacked on forums by people that don't know me. 

Anyhow it isn't about making money, it is about leaving myself enough money to bring up another puppy I wasn't wholly expectuing to have, course i knew it was a possibility but never dreamed it would happen, I am new to this and it's all a learning curve. I already have 2 dogs and 1 pup, 2 cats, 3 kids, I have not got a bottomless pit. I am fully aware that I could have this puppy indefinitely and should my husband give me the go ahead I probably would, but that is not likely. 

As it happens I have had a good chat with the man today and we have come to a finanical agreement which quite frankly I am not going to share on here for fear of being judged, attack and demoralised. But he is happy, I am happy. Thank you to all of you who did support me. I much appreciate it.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Please update us about how the pup gets on, won't you?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Good for you, Lucy. I am glad you have come to an arrangement, whatever it may be, that suits you both and will put your mind at rest about whether he is going to demand the pup back to resell!


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## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

Glad you have managed to sort something out... at least now you know you can put it to bed and find the right home for your pup like you wanted in the first place.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Anyhow it isn't about making money, it is about leaving myself enough money to bring up another puppy I wasn't wholly expectuing to have, course i knew it was a possibility but never dreamed it would happen, I am new to this and it's all a learning curve. I already have 2 dogs and 1 pup, 2 cats, 3 kids, I have not got a bottomless pit. I am fully aware that I could have this puppy indefinitely and should my husband give me the go ahead I probably would, but that is not likely.


I'm glad you have come to an agreement with the man that both you and he are happy with. Not having a go, but as a breeder, there is always a possibility that you could end up with puppies and dogs back and this should always be bourne in mind before embarking on breeding. It is the BREEDER who brings the puppies into the world and ultimately has responsibility for them.

Can I ask if you never wanted to keep a puppy why did you breed?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I'm glad you have come to an agreement with the man that both you and he are happy with. Not having a go, but as a breeder, there is always a possibility that you could end up with puppies and dogs back and this should always be bourne in mind before embarking on breeding. It is the BREEDER who brings the puppies into the world and ultimately has responsibility for them.
> 
> Can I ask if you never wanted to keep a puppy why did you breed?


I have kept a puppy.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I have kept a puppy


Sorry - I must have misunderstood.

Regardless - when thinking about breeding one should always take into account the possibility of having puppies (or even dogs) back at any time in the future. It is part of the responsibility a breeder has when they make the decision to bring puppies into the world and it is only the breeder that makes that decision - not puppy buyers, not rescue, but the breeder. Granted, there are plenty that don't think it's their responsibility and that's why rescues are overflowing, but a responsible ethical breeder will always have that in their mind.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Sorry - I must have misunderstood.
> 
> Regardless - when thinking about breeding one should always take into account the possibility of having puppies (or even dogs) back at any time in the future. It is part of the responsibility a breeder has when they make the decision to bring puppies into the world and it is only the breeder that makes that decision - not puppy buyers, not rescue, but the breeder. Granted, there are plenty that don't think it's their responsibility and that's why rescues are overflowing, but a responsible ethical breeder will always have that in their mind.


I am aware of everything you have said, just suppose I was not expecting it to happen so soon. I am not prepared to defend myself when I have done nothing wrong. I have taken the puppy back, the buyer and I have come to a mutal agreement, it is a first for me, and I asked advise. I took into account that many people thought I was going about it the wrong way so dealt with it a better way. Job done. I am not after your approval.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Good for you, Lucy. I am glad you have come to an arrangement, whatever it may be, that suits you both and will put your mind at rest about whether he is going to demand the pup back to resell!





luvmydogs said:


> Please update us about how the pup gets on, won't you?





TedEBear said:


> Glad you have managed to sort something out... at least now you know you can put it to bed and find the right home for your pup like you wanted in the first place.


Thank you, if I stick around, I will of course let you know when he gets the perfect home. I have turned a couple down today, not sure how he would walk a big bouncy pup with a walking stick at the age of 80 ish. His perfect home is out there, and if the worst comes to the worst he'll just have to be stuck with me


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Sorry - I must have misunderstood.
> 
> Regardless - when thinking about breeding one should always take into account the possibility of having puppies (or even dogs) back at any time in the future. It is part of the responsibility a breeder has when they make the decision to bring puppies into the world and it is only the breeder that makes that decision - not puppy buyers, not rescue, but the breeder. Granted, there are plenty that don't think it's their responsibility and that's why rescues are overflowing, but a responsible ethical breeder will always have that in their mind.


Of course any ethical breeder will take a pup they have breed back! but by pandering to these fickle buyers is not something I would do! YEP!! I would without a shadow of doubt take any pup I had brought into the world back! BUT!! pups are not imo a commodity that can be taken for a few days then returned on a whim! I don;t think any breeder should if it can be avoided pay these lowlifes back 100% - they need to learn that these small lifes cannot be bartered with!!! !! That pup could have been the pick of the litter!!
This buyer just did not do his reseach at the end of the day if you want my views! I'm with the original poster all the way on this one!!! that said! I would have a contract that were airtight to avoid the chance of the pup being rehomed by the buyer - the only option being returned to me!!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Of course any ethical breeder will take a pup they have breed back! but by pandering to these fickle buyers is not something I would do! YEP!! I would without a shadow of doubt take any pup I had brought into the world back! BUT!! pups are not imo a commodity that can be taken for a few days then returned on a whim! I don;t think any breeder should if it can be avoided pay these lowlifes back 100% - they need to learn that these small lifes cannot be bartered with!!! !! That pup could have been the pick of the litter!!
> This buyer just did not do his reseach at the end of the day if you want my views! I'm with the original poster all the way on this one!!! that said!


I don't disagree with some of what you say, but the bottom line is that the buyer would have been quite within his rights to sell the pup on at the price it cost him (or more) and never contact the breeder.



> I would have a contract that were airtight to avoid the chance of the pup being rehomed by the buyer - the only option being returned to me!!!


I'm afraid it won't hold much water legally. Dogs sales are governed by the Sale of Goods Act and once sold to the new owner, becomes their property to do with as they wish. Many breeders do use such contracts but they don't hold any water legally - the only benefit is if the new owner doesn't realise this. The only contracts that do hold water are those rescues use - but here the dog is 'adopted' not sold. That is why, although they do charge for their rescues, it is termed as a 'donation'.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I don't disagree with some of what you say, but the bottom line is that the buyer would have been quite within his rights to sell the pup on at the price it cost him (or more) and never contact the breeder.
> 
> I'm afraid it won't hold much water legally. Dogs sales are governed by the Sale of Goods Act and once sold to the new owner, becomes their property to do with as they wish. Many breeders do use such contracts but they don't hold any water legally - the only benefit is if the new owner doesn't realise this. The only contracts that do hold water are those rescues use - but here the dog is 'adopted' not sold. That is why, although they do charge for their rescues, it is termed as a 'donation'.


Actually on the last score you are wrong! if you do an individual contract signed in the presence of a solicitor it would be airtight! problem is you would be looking in excess of two hundred pound per pup so it would not be financially viable!

And yes! I know about the sale of good act!! a dog is classed as nothing more then a washing machine!! very sad!


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Just to let those of you that asked, the puppy has today gone to a new home. With a family with similar breed experience, and no young children. Hopefully this time I have gotten it right, and he will live a long and happy life with his new family.


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## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

thats great news lucy ,bet your so pleased i hope he,s very happy in his new home:thumbup:


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## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> Just to let those of you that asked, the puppy has today gone to a new home. With a family with similar breed experience, and no young children. Hopefully this time I have gotten it right, and he will live a long and happy life with his new family.


Fantastic news!!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Lucy1012 said:


> Just to let those of you that asked, the puppy has today gone to a new home. With a family with similar breed experience, and no young children. Hopefully this time I have gotten it right, and he will live a long and happy life with his new family.


yay!!! i am happy now - i was all for disobeying my parents and coming to get him! I really hope he'll be happy in his new home. Hope the family keep you updated.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Oh thats great news!!:thumbup:


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

Fantastic News.... Good luck little one and have a long and happy life.....


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

That's great news, although I'm sure Ad 1980 is gutted.  :thumbup:


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

alaun said:


> That's great news, although I'm sure Ad 1980 is gutted.  :thumbup:


i am lol lol


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