# About crate training and a playpen.



## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Hi everyone, my wife and I just adopted a 3 month old Min Pin we named Roddy a week ago. I have had dogs before when I was a kid at home, but this is the first dog i've adopted on my own, and also the youngest.

So far the good news is he's (seemingly) taken to crate training extremely well. At about 10:30PM we try and get him tired out and ready to nap, put some toys, a blanket and a pad (for messes) in his crate and gently coax him in there to sleep. At this point we quickly and quietly leave the room and shut off the lights. Lol we started out wearing earplugs just in case, but now he doesn't make a sound until 6:30AM when we wake up! Last night we even took away his blanket since he peed on it and he was still fine.

My questions are to do with during the day while i'm at work. I work from 9 to 5, but my wife has been home with the dog all day this past week, but sometimes neither one of us will be home. We don't really want to put him in the crate during the day because we feel 8 hours in there for sleep + possibly 8 hours during the day = 16 hours total, which we think is too much.

We were discussing the possibility of getting him a playpen for during the day. He is already confined to the living room, which is big enough for his size, but we don't want him getting into mischief and chewing on our wires and furniture when we're not home, so we'd like him to be in a puppy safe, bigger but still confined area.

Would 8 hours of crate at night + playpen during the day if we're not home be good? He is pooping (not peeing) on pads so we can cover the whole floor with pads and obviously give him some food/water/toys and a day bed.

Also, should I keep his crate separate from the playpen? He's doing so well with it that I wouldn't want him to get used to the idea of having more space with his crate so he suddenly gets anxious when we put him in there.

Thanks in advance, we're trying to be the best dog owners possible!


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

hi , congratulations on your new pup  , firstly If you are going to be out all day you need to get someone to come in half way through and let him out to toilet , play and possibly a quick walk, If you or your partner cant them perhaps look at dog walker or ask a relative/friend ? 

secondly if I was you I would ditch the puppy pads  sorry I think they just confuse pups , train him to wee and poo where you want him to go when he is grown up (outside I presume) , you need to be taking him outside every 30-60 minites and after he wakes up ,after playing , basically as much as you can , then when he does his business outside lots of treats and praise , just ignore any accidents in the house .

good luck


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Thus far we haven't acknowledged or praised his pad use. He poops specifically on them right now, but his peeing is still all over the place. I'm definitely keeping him on an outside routine, the pads are just a backup.

I'm asking about the playpen though, just because I don't think i'll be able to get someone to come over here during the day. And though my wife will be home all day or half the day sometimes, on some occasions neither of us will be home, so I wanted him to be in a confined, but more comfortable environment than his crate that also protects the things we own. Also, if we ever had to leave him alone for a bit while we go to the bathroom or do the dishes or something, we can put him in there to hang out until we're done.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Hi everyone, my wife and I just adopted a 3 month old Min Pin we named Roddy a week ago. I have had dogs before when I was a kid at home, but this is the first dog i've adopted on my own, and also the youngest.
> 
> So far the good news is he's (seemingly) taken to crate training extremely well. At about 10:30PM we try and get him tired out and ready to nap, put some toys, a blanket and a pad (for messes) in his crate and gently coax him in there to sleep. At this point we quickly and quietly leave the room and shut off the lights. Lol we started out wearing earplugs just in case, but now he doesn't make a sound until 6:30AM when we wake up! Last night we even took away his blanket since he peed on it and he was still fine.
> 
> ...


The theory behind using a crate to aid toileting training is that a pup or dog wont soil its bed surrounding area or where he sleeps. Most wont unless they have too, but left in there too long and desparate to go then they have no alternative but to do it in the crate. At 12 weeks and a small breed he still wont have much in the way of capacity to hold vast amounts for long periods either urine or faeces, being on 3 to 4 meals a day still at his age too, he will need to toilet a lot more often at the moment until he grows when he will be able to hold himself more and for longer periods. They still dont have great control either at this age as they dont always recognise the need to go or realise they need too, to late.

Using pads can also confuse the issue, especially if pre trained at the breeders on pads or paper as it acts as a cue that inside is the acceptable and right place to do it. What often happens with pads especially too, is that because of the soft thick texture they also get confused and often target things like beds and rugs and anything with the same sort of thick soft texture.

At 12 weeks he should be OK to go in the garden and begin toilet training properly, usually when the pads and papers ditched and outside only is concentrated on then they start to get clean quickly.

I always take mine out every 30/45 minutes when beginning toilet training. Frequently for shorter periods out usually works best then infrequently for longer periods Ive personally found. They also need to be taken out too after drinking, eating, playing and sleeping as usually they need to go then especially so you have a higher chance to get them started. When he does start to go use a word of choice, if you use it all the time he starts, then eventually they associate the word with toileting so later you can use it as a toilet cue/command getting them to toilet on command in a lot of cases.
When he has finished lots of praise and treats to re-enforce he has got it right.

If he has an accident dont tell him off as it can make them nervous about going in front of you which will make toilet training harder and often it will also make them more likely to sneak off and do it too. Also clean up any accidents with a special pet stair/odour remover as any smells left can encourage repeats in the same areas.

It looks like he cant go through the night at the moment, that usually comes later if he isnt. Personally again I had mine within sight and sound of me for the first couple of weeks, and when they woke or stirred then took them out, no bright lights on, no interaction or playing as that can stimulate them wide awake. Just out, cue word when they start, couple of words of calm praise and a treat and back to bed. Some people if the pup is not within sight and sound or doesnt cry to tell them they need to go, set an alarm once or twice and take them out that way. Its usually only a couple of weeks before they can go through anyway, but by constantly taking them out day and night they do usually get clean very quickly.

If your wife has been there all the time since you have had him during the day and he has had access to her all the time. Usually the best way to prevent problems when they are going to be totally left alone, is to start to do short periods during the day alone while you are in at first. Best is to decide where they are going to be left when you do go out, be it the idea of a pen or in the kitchen with a baby or dog control gate which a lot of people do as its easy to clean up accidents properly. Best time to start doing it is after a walk, or a play or training session when they have gotten rid of excess energy be tired and more likely to want to settle. Just take him to the area and leave him with something to self amuse and to make a good association with being left. It can be a classic Kong filled with wet food from his allowance if on wet, a kong wobbler or busy buddy if on dry, (the kong and busy buddy you can fill with other things too to give variety and keep interest) or a puppy safe chew. Other things that can help them settle also and are old tricks, is leaving a t-shirt or jumper you have worn so he has your smell to re-assure him, pups often sleep touching in the litter for security and warmth too so some like a large soft toy in their beds to cuddle up too. Also often leaving a radio on a talking station can help as the sound of voices can settle and re-assure them more then complete silence. Set up the area, give him something to self amuse and leave with no fuss at all.
At first you need to return, before he gets vocal or stressed, but let him out and continue to ignore him for another minute or two and then call him and give him lots of fuss and attention. You can then build up the routine times during the day when you are in, little by little so he learns to cope alone, and as he does and it becomes part of the daily routine then its easy to transfer it to times when he does have to be left for real and keep the same routine then. Usually if you do it this way, you shouldnt get problems like separation anxiety and destruction anyway as they have learned to cope gradually.

Another thing that can help is an adaptil dog appeasing pheromone diffuser, these come in a plug in form like an airfreshner that you can get refills for after. They emit an artificial version of the pheromone mum emits to calm ad soothe pups, and can be really helpful for dogs and pups when left.

Adaptil helps dogs and puppys learn settle travel and in kennels

Recipes - KONG

Wobbler - KONG

Busy Buddy Twist-n-Treat - YouTube

https://www.antlerdogchews.co.uk/puppy-and-easy-chews


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Thanks so much for your post.

We did adopt him from a breeder who used pads with him, so we assumed that we should keep that going as a back up. Personally I'd prefer a totally outside based routine, so if I can make him forget about the pads and focus on outside, i'll definitely do that.

My biggest issues right now as far as that goes is:

A. How do I teach him NOT to go inside the house if i'm ignoring him when he does? Don't I have to acknowledge that I do not want him to go there? If I praise him when he goes outside, how will he know I don't want him to go inside at the same time?
B. Should one command work for both pee and poop? We're trying to use "Go peepee!" since it's easy to say and the dog may just associate it with "bathroom", not specifically pee or poop.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Thanks so much for your post.
> 
> We did adopt him from a breeder who used pads with him, so we assumed that we should keep that going as a back up. Personally I'd prefer a totally outside based routine, so if I can make him forget about the pads and focus on outside, i'll definitely do that.
> 
> ...


I would totally ditch the pads and get rid of them, they are likely just confusing the issue, he isnt peeing on them anyway I understand? So they are a pretty pointless exercise really and not cheap either to buy.

By constantly taking him out and giving him the opportunity to only go outside you should find that the more he does it outside and you re-enforce that you will get less and less accidents inside anyway, also as he gets rewards and praise for getting it right the penny will drop that its worth his while too if that makes sense. Dogs aint stupid the fact that there is also something in it for them usually wants to make them do it.

Once you have used the toilet cue for a while too, and he begins to associate it, you can if he does have an accident very calmly take him outside quickly and use the cue, he may have already done it, but that will re-enforce to him that it should be outside not in, without risking telling him off and making him nervous about going infront of you or more likely to sneak off and do it.

To be honest I have only ever used one cue, using two will just confuse the issue. If you use that "word" whatever you choose, when he squats to go, be it peeing or pooping he will associate it with toileting full stop in both forms so you dont need different words one is OK.

Another thing that you need to look out for is circling, sniffing or scratching about thats often a sign they are looking to go too, so get him out quickly.
You dont always see it at first as they as explained when younger and at first dont always recognise the need to go or realise too late, so if he doesnt do it at the moment keep a watch out you should begin too see it at some stage.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Yeah, the only reason we've kept the pad thus far is that he WAS specifically pooping on them, so we thought that was at least some kind of routine we can work with. But the big picture says we should get him into a pooping routine outside anyway.

He's only peed outside a few times and he has not pooped outside yet, if I KNOW he needs to poop, should I stand there outside ignoring him and wait as long as it takes until he does it himself? Should I walk him around outside until he goes?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Yeah, the only reason we've kept the pad thus far is that he WAS specifically pooping on them, so we thought that was at least some kind of routine we can work with. But the big picture says we should get him into a pooping routine outside anyway.
> 
> He's only peed outside a few times and he has not pooped outside yet, if I KNOW he needs to poop, should I stand there outside ignoring him and wait as long as it takes until he does it himself? Should I walk him around outside until he goes?


Personally Ive always treated any form of toileting the same, take them out every 30/45 minutes at first and after drinking eating playing and sleeping for about 5 minutes and then bring them back in.

Usually if they have their daily allowance split into equal meals at set times of day, you should find that regular feeding = regular toilet times that they need to go defeacating wise, so often by taking them out after eating and keeping a note of the times he seems to need to poop you can often get them out and get success that way.

Its really just a matter of persistence and being consistant, it is a lot of work for a week or two and you do feel at times all you are doing is going in and out for toilet breaks but Ive found the intense toilet training does pay off pretty quickly. AS they grow and get more control they dont need to toilet so often anyway, but you will still even when they have got it posibly have to think for them at times and remind them to go out for quite awhile. Every dog is different some will get it and devise a way of telling you they need to go pretty quickly, others may need reminding to go out for quite a while. One of mine stands by the back door and barks, another one comes up and woos and walks backwards, the old girl starts running around in circles like a scalded cat, but with all mine they seem to have come up with something to tell me on their own. If you can try to get him to follow you out to the back door and go out, thats usually better then carrying them out.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Thanks so much for all your help so far.

Lol since we've talked he's managed to pee outside twice, for which he received heavy praise and a "Good go peepee!"

However, his pooping mindframe is messed up at the moment. He has picked out a section of the room to poop in, and today there was a time where I KNEW he had to poop, he was showing all the signs (sniffing as he walks around in a tight circle and beginning to squat). I immediately grabbed him and took him outside with the leash, stood there for a good while, encouraging him to "go peepee!" and he just began going around in circles and eating the grass, basically ignoring his need to poop. After about 10 minutes I knew he wasn't in the pooping mindframe anymore, so I took him inside, knowing full well he needed to poop and where he wanted to.

Sure enough, a minute later there he goes and poops.

Granted today is a rainy, cloudy day and he's still learning to walk on the leash and being introduced to new weather elements he may have never experienced before, but I worry this might be a hard habit to break him out of.

Any advice on how to transition him into pooping outside?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Thanks so much for all your help so far.
> 
> Lol since we've talked he's managed to pee outside twice, for which he received heavy praise and a "Good go peepee!"
> 
> ...


All you can do really is carry on being consistent, the more he does wees outside and gets praise and attention and treats, it should encourage him to want to poop out there too. Just keep being vigilant luckily he does show signs when he needs to poop, so as soon as you see it then take him out, give him 5 minutes, if he doesnt poop, then take him out again 5 minutes later until he does do one out there. Or as soon as you see him circle again keep taking him out then. Dont forget too to clean up with a special pet stain odour remover as any smell left which you may not smell but he can will encourage it likely too. Its just patience and persistence really.

What may help too as regards to introducing him to things and socialising him is the puppy plan, at the end of the breeders and early caregivers there is a plan up to 8 weeks, and then at the end of the new owners section is a plan from 8/16 weeks. At 12 weeks now he may have missed out on things, but the plan should give you a guide.

The Puppy Plan


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## Vev (Feb 15, 2013)

Surely you should of thought about who and how the dog was going to be looked after durin the day whilst you were both out BEFORE you got a dog? You can't expect a puppy to hold on for 8 hours whilst you are both at work! That is cruel!

Puppies need to be let out every hour at least when really young!

Should of thought about this before you got a puppy perhaps...


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

There would be many, many homeless dogs if everyone followed that logic.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

RossAndRoddy said:


> There would be many, many homeless dogs if everyone followed that logic.


:mad2:

A fully grown dog MAY* cope with being left 8 hours, but it is far from ideal for a *PUPPY*


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## Vev (Feb 15, 2013)

RossAndRoddy said:


> There would be many, many homeless dogs if everyone followed that logic.


What an awful attitude towards dog ownership.

I often prefer dogs to humans and believe they deserve more than a lot of humans do!


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Well I apologize for being forced to work 40 hours a week to be able to survive while at the same time having a wife who is forced to work 40 hours a week to be able to survive, while at the same time really loving dogs and wanting to give one a home and the best life it can have given my circumstances, as opposed to leaving it caged up on a farm waiting for a home it may never get.

I wish I was able to stay at home all day, have no financial obligations and dedicate all of my time to him, but I live in the real world unfortunately.


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## Vev (Feb 15, 2013)

Apologise to the poor puppy not me!

I understand your circumstances as me and my partner were in smilar ones but we knew we couldn't give a puppy the time and love it needed when we were both working full time so waited until I went part time to get one. Working full time and having a dog is tough if you can't get anyone to let it out during the day. I know lots of dogs with full time worker owners and they spend 10 hours plus alone all day and then get scolded by a grumpy, tired, stressed owner for weeing inside as they "should of held on" for 10 hours! Then they get a pathetic 10minute walk and shut back up at night waiting for it all to happen again the next day. It's no life for a dog let alone a young puppy and it touches a nerve when I see people get really young puppies whilst working full time and expecting the puppies to cope!

I struggle to find someone to let my dog out whilst I work several days a week and I don't work anywhere near full time. Sometimes dogs just don't fit in with our hectic lifestyles these days.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Well I apologize for being forced to work 40 hours a week to be able to survive while at the same time having a wife who is forced to work 40 hours a week to be able to survive, while at the same time really loving dogs and wanting to give one a home and the best life it can have given my circumstances, as opposed to leaving it caged up on a farm waiting for a home it may never get.
> 
> I wish I was able to stay at home all day, have no financial obligations and dedicate all of my time to him, but I live in the real world unfortunately.


Get over yourself. Many people work full time and provide a perfectly appropriate care for their dogs, they *researched* the needs of a puppy in *advance* of bringing one home and made sure they had support in place to ensure pup was set up to succeed.

Some even decided they were not able to provide for a puppy's needs and decided to rescue an adult dog. Others even came to the decision bringing in a dog or puppy would be a selfish one right now and chose to wait.

When we choose to bring an animal into our homes we take on the responsibilty of their health and wellbeing both physically, mentally and particularly in the case of puppies developmentally.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

RossAndRoddy said:


> There would be many, many homeless dogs if everyone followed that logic.


Actually I think there'd be a lot FEWER dogs finding themselves homeless in the long run if people put more thought into what having one involved.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Partner and I both work full time and have just brought 9 week pup home,we are lucky that OH works shifts, but there are a few days a weeks we both work the same hours, I make sure to have no meetings at 6pm ( I work US hours) and I go in earlier,so I can get home for hour and half with pup so technically my lunch time, is this not something you could consider? Lucky you on the 8 hours a night we only get 5, so he doesn't p in crate


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

moonviolet said:


> Get over yourself. Many people work full time and provide a perfectly appropriate care for their dogs, they *researched* the needs of a puppy in *advance* of bringing one home and made sure they had support in place to ensure pup was set up to succeed.
> 
> Some even decided they were not able to provide for a puppy's needs and decided to rescue an adult dog. Others even came to the decision bringing in a dog or puppy would be a selfish one right now and chose to wait.
> 
> When we choose to bring an animal into our homes we take on the responsibilty of their health and wellbeing both physically, mentally and particularly in the case of puppies developmentally.


I'll answer this with a question, why do you think i've made so many topics in the last few days?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rossandroddy said:


> i'll answer this with a question, why do you think i've made so many topics in the last few days?


in advance, prior to, before!!!

YOu have posted all these thread because of your lack of research, planning and preparation have left you panicking at the reality of having a puppy.

I'll give you your due, you sound like you are willing to take responsibility going forward.


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## Guest (May 27, 2013)

Seriously, this is not rocket science. A puppy cannot be left alone for 8 to 9 hours a day end of. How is that puppy getting training, socialization, positive interactions with humans and other dogs if the poor thing is confined to a cage all day?

Plenty of people work full time and make adequate arrangements for their dogs. You make arrangements with a trusted neighbor, or hire a dog walker, or drop the pup off at doggy daycare, you take your lunch break at home instead of co-workers. If you want to make it work, you find a way.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

"in advance, prior to, before!!!

YOu have posted all these thread because of your lack of research, planning and preparation have left you panicking at the reality of having a puppy."

Yeah, it's not because i'm meeting issues as they come and adjusting accordingly.

Absolutely nobody is a Dog Guru the first week of adopting their first puppy, I did research for weeks, but there are a few things that I simply had not considered or realized existed ("Puppy Frenzy" is something I never knew about until it happened).

So please do not insult my intelligence by acting like you had every conceivable factor of puppy raising, development and training mapped out before you adopted him, and do not insult my dedication to giving him the best life possible.

The reason i'm making these threads is so I can LEARN and CORRECT things to make his life even better, not because i'm panicking. I could very easily throw him in a crate for 16 hours a day if I wanted to, there's absolutely nothing stopping me. But why am I not? Why am I asking about his daily routine? Perhaps it's because I WANT HIM TO HAVE THE BEST LIFE POSSIBLE.

So how dare you insult my dedication when i've been spending every single moment this dog is sleeping all over the internet learning about all the unforeseen things that have come up that I could not have known about until I brought this dog, with his own personality and development status, home.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I think everyone is concerned about the puppy being left for a long time. When I first got Astro I took time off work to ensure he would be ok once I had to go back to work. Astro was left for about 2 hours before my boyfriend came home. If your planning on leaving your pup for a long amount of time there is no way he will be able to hold his bladder and he will have accidents.

I seriously suggest you find someone who can come in during the day as pups need fed 3/4 times a day, and he will be needing to go to the toilet. I know your already thinking you want to give the pup the best which is why he needs someone during the day.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Yes and I haven't ever denied that, and will do what I can to make that happen.

I'm just getting annoyed at the fact that my thread is getting derailed by focusing on something that had nothing to do with my original question at all.

Also, instead of seeing me as a new dog owner who is learning about and correcting things as they happen, i'm somehow painted as a panicking fool who just adopted a dog with no knowledge of how to take care of him or how big a commitment it is just because I haven't mastered the mind and body of a dog completely before adopting him.

Name me one parent who is master of all things and have prior knowledge of everything it entails the first week they have a baby.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

RossAndRoddy said:


> "in advance, prior to, before!!!
> 
> YOu have posted all these thread because of your lack of research, planning and preparation have left you panicking at the reality of having a puppy."
> 
> ...


I couldn't care a fig about your ego and of course I dare question you, you posted on a public forum not your own personal fan site.

What I care about is your poor pup. Asking about daily routine after you have him and realising that crating 16 hours a day isn't appropriate, is a sign of poor planning. The questions aren't tiny little things these are fundamental welfare issues.

It is those who fail to research in advance and get what they want, when they want, are most often that get rid when the reality becomes too challenging.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

RossAndRoddy said:


> I'll answer this with a question, why do you think i've made so many topics in the last few days?


Perhaps one of the reasons why you keep posting topics is that you're not getting the answers you wanted to hear.

This is a pet forums where people come because they love animals in general and pets in particular. If anyone on these forums think a puppy is getting neglected or not getting the care it needs - I'm afraid they are not going to be slow at coming forward and telling you the truth.

You have asked advice about the problem you have with your puppy, settling into its new home. Forum members have given youadvice freely - lots of free advice about the best way to care for a puppy. Some of these people are experts and you won't get better advice anywhere even if you payed a lot of money for it.

What you need to do now is read the advice you've been given, thank forum members for giving it to you and go and put it into action. That way, you will have a contented and well trained puppy who will grow up into a loving family dog who will give you many years of love and pleasure.

You wont be sorry I promise you.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

There's a difference between giving me advice, which some of you have done in really lengthy and helpful posts, and being a douchebag with a superiority complex who insults me while padding their own expertise in dog training.

I have done absolutely nothing to come off as hostile until I was being blindly insulted and have appreciated all the advice i've been given.

But turning this topic from playpen advice into "YOU'RE SO CRUEL BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT SOMETHING DURING THE DAY YET!" is really counter-productive.

I even said i'd try to get proper care during the day for him and wanted to get back to my actual question, but it was still "BUT HE NEEDS CARE DURING THE DAY!"


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Out of curiosity you say your pump is adopted was he from a rescue

Surely the rescue went through these kind of things with you and checked the pup wouldn't be home alone all day?


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Actually we got him from PureBredBreeders.com and he came via airplane. They did give me a lot of information and I got to speak directly to the breeder, but she told me more about Roddy himself, not really puppies in general.

And the only dogs i've ever had when I was living with my family had all been adopted when they were already out of the puppy phase and fully developed, so it was just a matter of getting them on a consistent routine and that's it.

Roddy is my first puppy and also the first dog i've had since being in my own home, and believe me I dod a TON of research and planning, but there are puppy exclusive factors that I hadn't considered or really known about until we got him.

Believe me I am listening to all of your advice, that's why i'm posting here. I just think it's unnecessary to negatively reinforce a new puppy owner into doing the right thing. Really no different than puppies if you think about it.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I am utterly speechless about Purebredbreeders.com :scared:.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Well I can't speak for everybody, but my own experience with them was really great.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Let me clarify in your head, you believe it is appropriate to call me a douchebag, a shitty person and question my parenting on a dog forum but i'm not allowed to question how much planning and research you did prior to getting your BYB network puppy?


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## Guest (May 27, 2013)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Name me one parent who is master of all things and have prior knowledge of everything it entails the first week they have a baby.


Even the most unprepared parents would understand that leaving a baby unattended in a crib or playpen to entertain him/her self for the majority of the day is unacceptable.
This is the equivalent of what you're suggesting.
You don't need research or prior knowledge to figure that one out.



RossAndRoddy said:


> Actually we got him from PureBredBreeders.com and he came via airplane.


Oh... well then... that explains a lot...
If you can afford over a thousand bucks for a min-pin from a puppy pimping site, you can afford a dog walker. Look one up.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

So now where I got my dog matters?

He was exactly as advertised and PBB/the breeder were completely helpful with every question and concern I had about the transaction. What's the problem?


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## Guest (May 27, 2013)

RossAndRoddy said:


> So now where I got my dog matters?
> 
> He was exactly as advertised and PBB/the breeder were completely helpful with every question and concern I had about the transaction. What's the problem?


It may not matter to you, but for many of us, the welfare of ALL the dogs matter as well as the future of the breed.
Since your pup was shipped by air, how do you know what conditions the dam was kept in? How do you know what condition *she* was in? How do you know how the puppies were cared for? Pictures? Because the person cashing your check said so? 
What about health tests? Were the dam and sire tested for the genetic conditions prevalent in the breed? Did you not find any mention of those in your extensive research?
Are they bettering the breed with this pairing, or are they just contributing more puppies to the pet overpopulation crisis?
Personally I would never put any money towards supporting a BYB because so many dogs suffer needlessly because of these kind of shady practices.


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Well if it makes you feel better, you can pretend that I "rescued" him from the big evil Pure Bred Breeders puppy factory.

They gave me all of his information, vet records and told me to get him a wellness check from the vet in the first 48 hours of receiving him, it seems like it'd be one elaborate scam if it was one, there's also a lifetime guarantee against any illness or death related to something that could be caused by poor breeding practices.

My experience with them was completely two-way and legitimate.

Unless they were once less legitimate than they now are, I didn't see the slightest hint of shadiness in the entire process, they were totally open with me on everything.


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## Guest (May 27, 2013)

See, this is where I just SMH...
You don't question a puppypimping site, assume the whole thing is on the up and up. You don't question staring down your pup a la CM and frighten him in to submission because heaven forbid he think he's "higher" than you on some imaginary human invented hierarchy. No, that you accept no problem.

But legitimate, knowledgeable dog owners tell you otherwise, give you real, workable advice, and NOW you decide to play the cynic. Seriously? I just don't get it...


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Purebred Breeders Complaints @ Pissed Consumer


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## Guest (May 27, 2013)

RossAndRoddy said:


> there's also a lifetime guarantee against any illness or death related to something that could be caused by poor breeding practices.


Just curious about this guarantee.
Is it money back or another pup?
And how do they determine the condition?


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## RossAndRoddy (May 24, 2013)

Apparently you missed the part where I learned about "puppy frenzy" and apologized for my error in assuming it was aggression.

Also you're assuming they're a puppymill based on nothing just as much as i'm assuming they're a legitimate network of breeders based on my experience with them. It IS possible for a company to IMPROVE based on criticism they've received.

So, just to be clear.

Rescuing a dog from a shelter = Wow you're such a saint and a good person for saving that poor dog!

Adopting a dog from an alleged "puppy mill" who was completely open with me about any of my concerns and skepticism = Pfff, why? Mercy kill those poor bastards.

I'm done here, this thread is going absolutely nowhere and is now pretty much bickering back and forth over things that have absolutely nothing to do with my original topic.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Well if it makes you feel better, you can pretend that I "rescued" him from the big evil Pure Bred Breeders puppy factory.
> 
> They gave me all of his information, vet records and told me to get him a wellness check from the vet in the first 48 hours of receiving him, it seems like it'd be one elaborate scam if it was one, there's also a lifetime guarantee against any illness or death related to something that could be caused by poor breeding practices.
> 
> ...


No, we cannot pretend you rescued him, because every puppy bought from a puppy farmer encourages the breeding of more. No decent breeder would ship a puppy by air to an owner they had never met, nor would they sell a puppy to someone who is out all day, every day.

I am saying this just so you know why people are so annoyed. It encourages puppy farmers, which we would all like to see an end of. But all that is neither here nor there; it is too late now to argue about what you should have done. This baby exists, he is here and you need advice.

He needs feeding three or four times a day; he needs company; he needs someone to take him out and show him the world. You must employ a dog sitter of some sort to come and attend to his needs.

Do you have any old people living near you? You would be surprised at just how pleased they sometimes are to be asked to keep a puppy company, especially if they are used to having dogs in the past. Put some notes through doors, see if anyone would like a little extra, even if it is only for half a day. Put a card in a shop window: "Dog sitter wanted for adorable puppy. Suit retired person with experience and love of dogs"

It is all you can do for him.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Trying to clarify things here. So you brought your puppy from PBB? but you thought you were adopting him. Were you duped into thinking you were adopting him? They sell puppies for profit, they aren't a rescue society. You spotted their site blurb where it says "Adopt your puppy" and thought it was a rescue society?


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I do hope you can find someone to come during the day as I don't think its fair to leave him for such a long time. You wouldn't leave a child for a long time.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

OP you have discovered the hard way that people on here are passionate about dogs and dog welfare. We certainly disagree on various issues regarding the best way and the most positive way forward for our individual dogs. We also agree to disagree about purebred dogs, crossbreeds and mongrels (are we still allowed to say mongrel??) but we all want the world to have fewer unwanted, unloved dogs.
No one is suggesting you don't want to give your pup a loving home or that your intention is to stress the pup or set him up to fail.
The written word can sound very harsh.
I guess there maybe an element of concern as you have not actually said "OMG I had no idea leaving a pup all day could set him back, cause him stress..... I will DEFINITELY find a way for him to have company"
What's done is done, you have your pup and I'm sure you will make every attempt to train him and keep him engaged and happy. A walk before and after work come rain or shine when he's old enough, is quite a commitment but It is worth it.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

RossAndRoddy said:


> Actually we got him from PureBredBreeders.com and he came via airplane. They did give me a lot of information and I got to speak directly to the breeder, but she told me more about Roddy himself, not really puppies in general.
> 
> And the only dogs i've ever had when I was living with my family had all been adopted when they were already out of the puppy phase and fully developed, so it was just a matter of getting them on a consistent routine and that's it.
> 
> ...


So you bought him  not adopted. And no wonder they didn't give a dam about how long you were planning to leave home alone 

No reputable breeder would let a pup be alone 9 hours a day.

If you have the money to pay $2000 for a puppy and you both work 40 hours a week then you should be able to afford a dog walker / sitter.

Have you by any chance contacted the breeder for advice on the whole crate/ kennel / back to work situation?


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Just curious about this guarantee.
> Is it money back or another pup?
> And how do they determine the condition?


But you can see from their testimonials that Kim kardashian and Miley Cyrus also bought their dogs from that website so they must be good right! 

Also high prices means better breeding practises surely! 

OP, regardless of what I think of where you bought your pup or my scepticism of the amount of research you did before getting the pup if you ended up buying one from a website without actually meeting pup or Mum which are pretty basic "no-nos" I will not vilify you for getting a pup whilst working full time. We did exactly the same. I will tell you what we did when we first got Izzy.

OH and I each took a week off work so we had 2 weeks total with someone at home with Izzy, during those 2 weeks we got toilet training nailed (we were lucky with no accidents after the first 3days at home) and started building up the time she was left alone. She was crate trained and slept in there at night.

Once we were both back at work we got up early and played with her before work until her jabs were completed and she could go outside for a walk, I came home at lunchtime to play with her and let her out for the toilet. I also adjusted my work hours so I started early and could finish early so she was left for 3 1/2 hrs in the morning and 3 hrs in the afternoon. We left her with free run of the kitchen with her crate door open so she could settle in there if she wanted. We left filled kongs and treats for her to sniff out while we were out. We also sent her to daycare once a week once her jabs were completed.

It was hard work and we made mistakes, we thought we were prepared but at times felt completely overwhelmed and we both shed a few tears on the bad days! 

Things are easier now and Izzy is quite happy being left, we do lots with her after work with obedience training and agility training on 2 evenings of the week, then long walks at weekends and she still goes to daycare once a week.

Good luck and please don't leave the forum, you may think people are being harsh but they only have your pups best interest at heart! Everyone here truly cares for their dogs and you will get lots of good advice if you can manage a bit of humble pie and actually take on board what they're saying.


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## Vev (Feb 15, 2013)

With regards to the post above we also planned ahead and made arrangements when we got our puppy Maisie at 8 weeks old. We knew she was very young and had only been properly seperated from her mum for just two weeks so we planned to have lots of time off work whilst she was still so young. I would never of dreamed of getting her If we were both working full time and has no one to come and keep her company.

She was a tiny little scaredy cat when we first got her! I took two weeks off and then my partner had a week off and only then did we start GRADUALLY leaving her. We always had my mum who doesn't work to come and keep her company at first as well so she was very well liked after right from the beginning. We started leaving her for 30mins max at first and she isn't cope with THAT very well. First time we left her she pooed, weed and was sick because she was so distressed but we had to keep doing it as we knew she had to learn to be left and as soon as she realised we came back everytime she just relaxed and slept until we came back! I couldn't imagine even thinking I leaving her for 8 hours when she was young. She would of maybe even died from the stress.


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