# Help, nibbling Rats!



## dizzyrascal (Jan 11, 2010)

Hello. Can anyone give me some advice, we have 2 rats (got at the weekend). They seem very intested in us but seems to test everything with their teeth!  No agression bites though. How do I best go about sorting this out as I need to for my 11 year old son to handle them as they are his? 

Thanks, Sharon


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## Gobaith (Jun 6, 2009)

Some rats do this when introduced to a new home. Its good you say that it isnt an agressive nibble, just a curious nibble. Otherwise that could be more of a problem.
Its just there way of testing to see whether you mean harm or your food.

If you do, dont poke treats through the bars of their cage as they may think all fingers are treats 
Wash your hands before trying to handle, your fingers may still smell like food from something you just ate for example and they think its food.
Also rats have poor eyesight and cant tell if your finger is food, just by scent. So if it still smells of food then they may give it a curious nibble.

As you only got them on the weekend i dont think you have anything to worry about especially with it not being agressive. Just continue to handle them regularly and they will begin to recognise your scent and the bond between human and rat will grow 

Good luck,
Chloe x


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## dizzyrascal (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. One of them is less sure that the other. How long should I leave them to settle or do I just persist. I have not owned a rats since a child, but never remember this happening?

Sharon


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## Gobaith (Jun 6, 2009)

All rats are different  And they just take time. I think its right now to start interacting with them. They have only been there a couple of days, so they arent gonna come round straight away. 
Its important they get used to your voice, so try without getting them out to just speak to them, and they will slowly learn that your the boss and thats your voice.
Peservere. Its important that if your worried about nibbling not to use gloves or something because they will never get used to your scent. 
When trying to get one out, if it nibbles, show that your not scared and try not to react, cup the rat in your hands and stroke its head to show you mean no harm. Still talking to him/her  
If the rat continues to nibble put him/her back, if they sit there and start exploring you give them a treat, that way they'll learn out time=fun time and soon they will look forward to coming out.
Every rat is different and they are still settling in. They are very sociable creatures so they will soon come around dont worry.
Chloe


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Rats will usually test everything with a nibble. I never poke my fingers through the bars because they have a tendence to grab your fingers with their teeth, so i just don't go there. They have never bitten me while my hand is in the cage though as they know it's your hand. Also, don't eat something and then handle them, otherwise they may think you have food on your hands and may nibble harder than usual.

Where did you get them from? 

Mine were from a breeder, but they weren't too well handled, so they have always been a bit flighty, but now, 6 months later, they are much happier in our company.

Were the rats for your son? if they were, you have to be prepared that your son may lose interest in a few weeks/months time because rats do need a fair bit of attention and cleaning out and you will have to take over the handling and cleaning out.. I have to spot clean their litter trays every day, let them out free range for an hour each day, and at the beginning, I got them out of the cage regularly to sit in my jumper to get used to my smell, which helps them bond to you more.

Perfect free range areas are the hallway with some hardboard covering the stairs, or the landing if there is no access to rooms or the stairs, or the bathroom is there are no holes anyway. Make sure to cover wires as well. What are you feeding them too?


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## dizzyrascal (Jan 11, 2010)

They came from a local pet shop (ouch). I tried to find a local breeder but was unsuccessful. They are for my son (his hampster died and he has been inconsolable). Since I had rats as a child he wanted to get them. I will also handle them but I am a little bit nervous because of the nips. The nips are too hard to not wear gloves although I do rub their flooring on them to smell a bit like them. They eat rat nuggets and the odd treat.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dizzyrascal said:


> They came from a local pet shop (ouch). I tried to find a local breeder but was unsuccessful. They are for my son (his hampster died and he has been inconsolable). Since I had rats as a child he wanted to get them. I will also handle them but I am a little bit nervous because of the nips. The nips are too hard to not wear gloves although I do rub their flooring on them to smell a bit like them. They eat rat nuggets and the odd treat.


pet shop rats can be hard to tame as they aren't used to human contact. you may have a struggle on your hands, and some rats never settle into human company (and these are nearly always pet shop rats). Are they young? If they are, you need to give them protein food every day until they are 14 weeks old, such as chicken, tuna, salmon, egg, EMP (used for young birds) or similar.

If you make a fist with your hand and show it to them, they can smell you and if they nip, it won't hurt as much as if they nipped your palm. Don't flinch from them otherwise they think it's a way of getting humans away from them. Also, get them out several times a day (if you have to wear gloves to do this, then that's fine), and put them in your jumper. This will relax them as it's a dark place and they'll get used to your scent. I personally wouldn't allow your son to touch them until they have become well tamed because if they nip him, he may become scared of them and not want to be around them.

Also, are you sure you have two rats of the same sex? Pet shops are renowned for selling pairs of animals of opposite sexes and then the females become pregnant and have as many babies as 17.  Do you have females, as sometimes in the pet shop, they leave the females in with the males for too long and they mate, even if they sell them correctly sexed?

My mum is scared to putting her hands into my rats cage. Now I know they wouldn't bite someone's hand in the cage, but she simply refuses to do it, because she thinks they will bite, and when they nibble and lick my fingers, she thinks they are biting. If my mum was the sole owner of them, the rats would definitely be unhandlable because of the lack of confidence in the owner to the rats, and they can sense your fear too.


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## dizzyrascal (Jan 11, 2010)

We handled them in the shop and they were fine then. I was told that they are about 8 weeks old, I think they are young but are older than 8 weeks. They both look like males to me and thats what the pet shop said they were. I do hear some squeeking though from time to time. I am hoping its just rough play and not fighting?


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## Gobaith (Jun 6, 2009)

I second what seven pets said. They do take a lot more time to come around if from a pet shop as all they knew was living under extremely bright lights with people coming to poke their noses into their cage. They are rarely handled which makes it harder to tame them. Definitely make sure they were sexed right. They told me my Ronnie was a male. She was a female! and i was so lucky that she wasnt pregnant!
It just takes perserverance. Try getting them out with a thin towel, piece of cloth, this way its thin and protects you from the bites still. Allow them to sit there and explore you. You may be nervous but try not to show it, if you do, the rat will know how to 'beat you' as such. Flinching also. try not to flinch. Its hard i know lol. But the rats will sense fear and they will do this every time. 
Try what i said by talking to them, let them get used to your voice. Their 'Mammys' voice  
Don't give up, they have only been there a couple of days and im sure they will come around shortly with plenty of attention they will slowly get used to you. 
Chloe


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dizzyrascal said:


> We handled them in the shop and they were fine then. I was told that they are about 8 weeks old, I think they are young but are older than 8 weeks. They both look like males to me and thats what the pet shop said they were. I do hear some squeeking though from time to time. I am hoping its just rough play and not fighting?


mine squeak. it's usually from overgrooming or playfighting. if there is no blood, then there's no harm done.  I would just try and gain some confidence around them as they will feel your fear. When I handled my rats at the breeders, they were fine but when I took them home, they were very scared and just hid at the first sign of a human. After a few days, they got more confident and started venturing out of their house and moving around.


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## Gobaith (Jun 6, 2009)

dizzyrascal said:


> I do hear some squeeking though from time to time. I am hoping its just rough play and not fighting?


Observe them when you hear the squeaking. You can usually tell the difference between play fighting than a serious one. Trust me, a serious fight sounds horrible and you will know straight away. Rats enjoy eachothers company and are most likely play fighting. Just check no blood is being drawn and there are no serious wounds. I shouldnt think you have anything to worry about as they were sold together so would have been used to eachother. If they are fighting nastily and one is getting the better of the other you should intervene, with gloves, because that is the chance where you will get a nasty rat bite. So gloves are necessary 
Im sure its not nasty fighting, and they are just play fighting like all rats do  You'd know by now if it was nasty fighting.
Chloe


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## dizzyrascal (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for that. One in particular climbs onto my arm already but goes back in so hopefully they will come round OK. The other is more timmid and stays in their bed alot but both will take food from me. I'll keep on trying and working on the nerves!

Sharon


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## Gobaith (Jun 6, 2009)

Goodluck Sharon  Keep us updated on their progress.
Chloe x


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

You should be able to tell whether they're boys or not, even at 3-4 weeks testicles are very obvious - if they aren't - try wetting their tummies, if you see nipples - they're girls. Here's a website to help you check:
Sexing Rats

Sadly you've found out that pet shop rats are generally not tame. Most are raised in horrendous conditions on "rodent farms", they are not handled at all - they are kept in tiny plastic tubs, often unsexed (hence many pet shop "accidental" litters - handy for the pet shop as they offer to take them back - hey presto, even more profit for them). Parents aren't picked for health or temperament, so many will be more prone to respiratory illness or tumours. The first time they're handled is to tip them into a box for transporting to the pet shop, then they're packed into tiny display tanks in the shop with very little to do or places to hide, so you can imagine how scared they will be moving to a new home after all that.

Just to give you an idea how much work goes into a well raised litter - I handle babies from a day old, daily for the first week, then twice daily - then as their eyes open and they start moving around, they are handled 3-4 times a day or more - until they leave us for their new homes. Even rats handled this well take time to settle in to their new homes.

I recommend picking up something like a rat or ferret pouch (try Acrorats or the Rat Warehouse - online shops, or eBay). Two or three times a day, go into the cage and pick them up firmly (gloves sometimes make this harder, if you need to cover your hand try something like a teatowel, they cant bite through it) but gently. Pop them in the pouch, and sit on the sofa with them - let them come in and out, give them plenty of treats, and they will soon associate you with fun and food. Do not faff about when trying to get them out - waving your hand about trying to decide whether you dare pick them up will only make them think there's something to be scared of - they can read our body language, just like dogs and other animals. If you are calm and confident, with time they should be too.

However, it is sadly sometimes the case that extremely nervous pet shop rats will not come round. This is rare but can happen.

If you decide you'd like to add to your rat family - indeed confident rats can often help socialise nervous ones - try emailing [email protected] for a list of NFRS registered breeders. Dont be put off by distance, if you cant travel a bit further for well handled rats, there are often people who can help - either by bringing them to a local show or helping arrange a "rat train". For example - I dont drive, but some lovely ladies from the Fancy Rats forum helped bring up two rescue rats from Portsmouth to me in West Yorkshire.

If I can help in any way just shout


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## Gobaith (Jun 6, 2009)

^^^
Rep :d


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## dizzyrascal (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for your help on this matter. They are already showing signs of interest in me more today and both are venturing out of their cage onto myself. I did buy a pouch today but although interested in it they really like running around on the sofa and over me and then back into their cage. I will double check their sex with the information that you have provided tomorrow in better light conditions.

Thanks again to everyone who has given me such great advice. 
I will give an update soon.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

rubbish. pet shop rats are JUST as tame as breeder rats..they SOMETIMES take abit more time to settle in and get used to you but i've not found any difference in tameness.
for instance, one of our breeder rats (miko) was never a people person and always hid from us, her sister mirren was just the same as tame as our shop bought rats and they all took the same time to acclimatise to us.

nip-exploring is very common for baby rats, they will grow out of it.

rats DO NOT have a problem distinguishing your fingers from food even if your fingers smell like food they know the difference. I NEVER wash my hands before playing with my rats if i've just eaten (unless it's something spicy and i've been eating with my hands). they have bad eyesight but close up it is good, and their sense of smell is incredible, just cos you can't smell the difference between your hand and the food smell on it doesn't mean your rat can't. Only hamsters are too stupid to know the difference.. rats have the intelligence of a 2 y/o.
rats can be overzealous to get the food your are holding, so when they are babies make sure the food is held so most of it is free from your fingers or on the palm of your hand, this will reduce accidental nipping/ biting.

proper bites are SORE, they go from hard prolonged nips (which may or may not produce blood) to full on blood gushers... prolonged nips should be dealt with by a OW or squeel of pain (from you lol) and pulling your hand away, they are signs the rat is nervous and you should respect that and leave it be. full on bites are signs the rat is fearing for it's life, leave it completely alone, leave the cage alone for a few hours for it to calm down.

putting fingers through the cage bars is generally not a good idea until the rats know you alot better! anything coming into their territory is 'enemy' and needs exploring or attacked. there are exceptions to this rule but to be save i wouldn't.

check out:
Critter City - Home
shes a rat expert  she knows **** loads.

for the timid one, try wearing a hoodie and putting it up your sleeve, in the pocket or in the hood to get it used to you. put a worn sock in their house so they can get used to your smell. talk to them alot when yoru around their cage show them you're not a danger. Don't pick them up from above (like a bird of prey).. let them climb onto you, use treats to entice them on and be PATIENT! timid rats will eventually come round.. they watch how the other rats are with you and see no bad things happening.. they will realise your not a danger. it can take weeks to months but it is very rewarding.

remember and teach your rats their names  makes them easier to catch when they escape lol


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

Sounds like you've had the opposite experience of most people. Breeder rats are handled from birth, just sounds like you chose a breeder who didnt, which means they're no better than the rodent farms.

It is not "rubbish", if I thought pet shop rats were always as tame as breeder rats, I wouldn't be breeding.

And I take offense at suggesting that my hard work and effort going into my litters makes no difference to the rat. Pet shop rats can become tame, yes, but people shouldn't have to go through this to get a tame rat. Good breeders pride themselves on sending their rats to new homes licky, cuddly and confident. To suggest there's no point is not only rude but irresponsible.


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

Even the link you posted says that unhandled rats will be unsociable rats and to get from a good breeder who handle from birth:
Critter City - Training shy or biting rats


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Sounds like you've had the opposite experience of most people. Breeder rats are handled from birth, just sounds like you chose a breeder who didnt, which means they're no better than the rodent farms.
> 
> It is not "rubbish", if I thought pet shop rats were always as tame as breeder rats, I wouldn't be breeding.
> 
> And I take offense at suggesting that my hard work and effort going into my litters makes no difference to the rat. Pet shop rats can become tame, yes, but people shouldn't have to go through this to get a tame rat. Good breeders pride themselves on sending their rats to new homes licky, cuddly and confident. To suggest there's no point is not only rude but irresponsible.


no need to take it personally, did i say "Lisa you're talking complete crap"? No i didn't.

in my experience all my rats, the two breeder and umpteen petshoppers have all acclimatised equally, the petshoppers were variably handled and not. my local PAH and the local independent pet shop both have rat lovers in and they are handled pretty often. my first lot of rats weren't as lucky and were rarely if ever handled and i've seen no difference in tameness. Rat personality has alot to do with tameness, some just don't adjust/trust as quickly as their siblings, like any pet you get.

breeders, like yourself, can to some degree guarantee few health problems unlike most larger petshops, but adjustment to a move can't be guaranteed. it doesn't mean your hard work is wasted or pointless (as you've assumed i meant) it just means that particular rat isn't quick to adjust.

as for whether it's a good or bad thing for owners to 'need' to tame their rats i'm happy either way. while it's easier for new rat owners to have rats that are handled alot, it generally isn't a large struggle and can be very helpful in learning about rats.

i'm not saying petshop rats are better than breeders but it's personal choice and experience, not all petshops sell mass produced rats some are stocked from breeders like yourself too.

this forum is for giving advice and my advice is that petshop rats should be given a chance too as they can be just as well looked after.

also the breeder i got the 2 rats from is from on here (as far as the both of us can gather anyway), and i'm pretty sure she handled them, the rescue she had to give them to is well known to me and i know she handled them daily.

so it IS rubbish to give a sweeping statement that all petshop rats aren't tame, as tame, or hard work.. it's simply not the case and i thought i'd add my experience in so that the OP could have the full breadth of experience of us rat lovers.

and i know what crittercity says about shop rats.. it still doesn't make it gospel, it's her opinion and experience only.


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

owieprone said:


> i'm not saying petshop rats are better than breeders but it's personal choice and experience, not all petshops sell mass produced rats some are stocked from breeders like yourself too.


No, they're not. I would never sell my rats in a pet shop, as you cannot guarantee your lines health and temperament if you dont know where your rats end up. Responsible breeders care very much about their rats health and temperament throughout their lives, and therefore need to keep in touch with their owners regularly throughout the animal's life to ensure that nothing has popped up in time.



> this forum is for giving advice and my advice is that petshop rats should be given a chance too as they can be just as well looked after.


While there may be one or two pet shops who care about their rats (said with tongue in cheek as I dont believe it personally - if they cared, they wouldn't sell pets at all), we should never be encouraging people to go to pet shops for their animals. The vast majority are bred by rodent farms, never handled, not bred for health or temperament, and by paying the pet shops you are condoning that and sentencing many rats to uncertain futures or lives of ill health. We should only be encouraging people to go to responsible breeders or rescues. It is time people voted with their feet - and the sales of animals in pet shops stopped, we cant do that while people are suggesting it's "ok" to buy from them.



> also the breeder i got the 2 rats from is from on here (as far as the both of us can gather anyway), and i'm pretty sure she handled them, the rescue she had to give them to is well known to me and i know she handled them daily.


Handling isn't the only important thing. Making sure you only breed from healthy rats with a long history of good temperament and health is the most important choice of all. Many breeders still breed from pet shop or feeder lines, and therefore have little or no history of their lines - and could be sentencing their animals to lives of ill health or owners to 2-3 years of nervous rat.

You are entitled to your choices, but please - dont pass on misinformation or recommend people still get pet shop animals. If you dont care about your rats health or temperament history, there are plenty of rats needing homes in rescues all over the country. Many very tame and well handled.

There is no need to go to a pet shop. There is no benefit from it.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> No, they're not. I would never sell my rats in a pet shop, as you cannot guarantee your lines health and temperament if you dont know where your rats end up. Responsible breeders care very much about their rats health and temperament throughout their lives, and therefore need to keep in touch with their owners regularly throughout the animal's life to ensure that nothing has popped up in time.
> 
> While there may be one or two pet shops who care about their rats (said with tongue in cheek as I dont believe it personally - if they cared, they wouldn't sell pets at all), we should never be encouraging people to go to pet shops for their animals. The vast majority are bred by rodent farms, never handled, not bred for health or temperament, and by paying the pet shops you are condoning that and sentencing many rats to uncertain futures or lives of ill health. We should only be encouraging people to go to responsible breeders or rescues. It is time people voted with their feet - and the sales of animals in pet shops stopped, we cant do that while people are suggesting it's "ok" to buy from them.
> 
> ...


absolutely agree. rep coming your way!!!


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## Phenobarbie (Sep 28, 2009)

Completely agree with you Lisa!

Although, when i got my 3 rats, i got them from [email protected] adoption, and they were only just ready to be sold, as they had just hit 8weeks, so i was surely thinking they shouldn't of even been in there...

But anyway, we had been looking around for breeders in the area and mum was buying me some sawdust at [email protected] She came home and told me she saw the 3 cutest rats.
Originally, i only wanted 2, and females. And my mum hates rats. HATES them, thinks their ugly and horrible sewer rats. 
But she said these 3 caught her eye, and they were 'quite pretty, for rats' lol

We went back 2days later so i could go see them and immediately fell in love with them.
The girl who put them into boxes said she didnt like rats so wasnt keen on picking them up (great start) Didnt ask me about a cage, and didnt even care to tell me that one only had half a tail....

I would never buy rats from a petshop again, and will definately go to breeders in the future.

My rats are VERY friendly, but if someone sneezes when they are out and about, or claps their hands, they will poo themselves (not literally) and run back to me, scrabbling to get inside my jumper or up my sleeve.

Unfortunately, they will probably always be this skittish, but at least i give them the love and care they need 

But when i get more rats, im definately off to a breeder!


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

Just wanted to say - although I post as a breeder - I am a rat owner like anyone else, and I hold my hands up when I say I have had pet shop rats - I'm not "rat-ist"


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> No, they're not. I would never sell my rats in a pet shop, as you cannot guarantee your lines health and temperament if you dont know where your rats end up. Responsible breeders care very much about their rats health and temperament throughout their lives, and therefore need to keep in touch with their owners regularly throughout the animal's life to ensure that nothing has popped up in time.
> 
> While there may be one or two pet shops who care about their rats (said with tongue in cheek as I dont believe it personally - if they cared, they wouldn't sell pets at all), we should never be encouraging people to go to pet shops for their animals. The vast majority are bred by rodent farms, never handled, not bred for health or temperament, and by paying the pet shops you are condoning that and sentencing many rats to uncertain futures or lives of ill health. We should only be encouraging people to go to responsible breeders or rescues. It is time people voted with their feet - and the sales of animals in pet shops stopped, we cant do that while people are suggesting it's "ok" to buy from them.
> 
> ...


you seem to be taking this abit personally.

basically calling me a liar isn't going to change the fact that some petshops ARE supplied by breeders and DO look after their animals just as well as a breeder does.. our local one for instance and one in edinburgh that i bought my first rats, Stalin and Lenin, from were breeder rats (who lived to the ripe old age of 3.5 years with benign lumps) . Pah might use farm rats but it doesn't mean they won't ever be healthy, very few of my pah rats have had problems, it also doesn't mean that my experience alone means there aren't poor health rats out there but so far i've been lucky.

why would giving your rats to a shop compromise your 'line'? surely your 'line' wouldn't be contaminated with any other rat that isn't yours as you are the breeder?? what owners do with their pets is up to them.. them breeding from them is nothing to do with you, so it wouldn't compromise your line in anyway.

i didn't say go buy willynilly from any pet shop, i expect propective owners to do their homework first like they would with any pet they buy, find out where the animal is from how it's looked after, do a few trips into the shop to spot check etc nothing more than a bit of commonsense.

good training and patience usually stops most bad habits like nipping or timidness. i'm am not passing on misinformation, merely give the OP the full breadth of information required, with regards to what to expect, where to look, and what to look for.

I can't speak for anyone else but i buy from petshops and rescues because i'm not bothered by lineage, if i was i'd buy from a specific breeder that knew personally.


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

You obviously struggle to understand my post.



> why would giving your rats to a shop compromise your 'line'? surely your 'line' wouldn't be contaminated with any other rat that isn't yours as you are the breeder?? what owners do with their pets is up to them.. them breeding from them is nothing to do with you, so it wouldn't compromise your line in anyway.


Giving rats to a pet shop would be against everything I believe in. I vet homes, I dont just hand them out to the first person with money, regardless of experience. I need to have regular updates from their new owners, how would that be possible if I gave them to a pet shop and left them there, not finding out where they went?

As for breeding from my rats, my rats are homed on non-breeding contracts to vetted homes. If people bred from my rats they would be breaking that contract. I am happy for people to breed from my rats when my lines are more established, but I do expect them to tell me or ask permission before I do. Not all rats I home out will be breeding quality.

You obviously dont know very much about responsible breeding - otherwise you'd have known these things. IMO there is no such thing as a good breeder who supplies pet shops. That doesn't mean they're evil people, just uneducated and irresponsible. Even those people can change their spots if they want to. Passing on rats to pet shops and not following through with them means they cannot ever guarantee the health or temperament of their rats. Without regular updates they cannot make responsible breeding choices for the future.

So we'll just have to disagree. I'm not a horrible cowbag who wants to ruin people's fun, but I do take offense at saying "people like you home in pet shops". No they dont. People like me would never do it.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Stop taking what i'm saying personally just because you don't like my opinion.

I'm not struggling to understand your posts. I've got a degree in marine biology and work as a legal secretary so if i had problems with your post i doubt i'd be employed in the sector i am.

i know quite alot about breeding etc. just because i don't do it doesn't mean i haven't any knowledge. 

i wasn't trying to insult you, if i was you'd know about it and i would be banned. I said 'people like you' meaning breeders, so again you're taking what i say out of context and reacting out of proportion.

There are breeders out there that supply petshops and who do care about what happens to them, just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it a bad thing, something that doesn't happen or something that is bad for the rats. 

Breeders that supply to shops aren't evil, as you say, they are merely, imo, trying to stop the shops selling farm rats, which as far as i'm concerned is a good thing. breeders that supply to shops will ensure that the rats aren't sold too early (by not supplying them until the proper age) and are in good health/lineage and all the things that larger petshops like [email protected] don't always get right. Just because they may not have the same follow up procedure that you have in place doesn't make them complacent or irresponsible. They are infact attempting to change how pet shops stock for the betterment of the animals kept there. also in my local shop the cages they are kept in are immaculate and very large with loads of toys etc, again due to the owners and the breeders insisting that be the case. 
Remember most people buy their rats locally so will continue to use the same shop for supplies.. the owners will get to know how the rats are getting on when they ask during subsequent visits.

If you don't want to be tarred with the same brush as these breeders do them the courtesy of not assuming they all irresponsible ignoramuses.

our local pet shop asked us loads of questions about knowledge of, equipment, housing and husbandry of the rats before they gave them to us, they weren't irresponsible. The rats we got were healthy and long lived, one had a bad personality but the other 2 were fine, all 3 from the same litter. 

If you are so against these breeders and shops then why do you buy rats from them? you said vote with your feet, but you clearly aren't doing what you expect everyone else to.

I think the OP (and any other possible rat owners) deserves to know that some pet shops are worth checking out as well as breeders.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm beginning to wonder why I joined this board when I read messages like the above. How rude.

I'm sorry but when you say "people like you" then people *will* assumed you're judging them, I don't think a degree in marine biology gave you much common sense and manners. 

You seem to be living in a dream world. I know breeders who supply the pet shop - they do it to offload extras and get money for them, not to make petshops a wonderful fluffy place to get marvellous rats. Anyone who sells to the petshop has no knowledge of their lines' health and temperament to fall back on, so it's hardly responsible breeding. It's their choice of course, but if you want a well bred rat you don't go to a petshop and get one, that's common sense. 

Where did Lisa say she gets her rats from petshops? She said she had in the past - I think you've made a very unfair and ignorant attack on someone and should take a step back. A step I intend to take from this board after reading some really ignorant and pathetic attacks recently on decent people.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

yet another closed for moderating


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