# Rescue's vs breeders!



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Is it just me or does anyone else get mad??????????????????? :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

How the hell can people keep buying puppys and breeders keep breeding when we have such a terrrible rescue crisis?

How can you look at this link and then go and buy or breed another puppy?

Pound Dog Rescue Link » Staffordshire Bull Terriers In Crisis

I am absolutely speechless!

Or the people who make an attempt and say "I went to the rescue centres, but they wouldn't give me a dog, so I had to go to a breeder". These are worse than the people who don't even bother in the first place!

I am fed up with people who don't give a s**t and just do what they want!

The only exceptions in my opinion, is people who have young children.


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## Zayna (Apr 19, 2009)

totally agree with you there. if i ever was in a position to own a dog it would come from a rescue centre. i would most likely get a greyhound as there are so many of them needing homes. they always in the paper! i think some people think that the dog is only in the rescue cente cos it must have something wrong with it so they dont want to take a risk. it is sad


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I can understand were your coming from.
But there is a different situation for everyone.
From a breeders point of view, we breed our dogs to better our lines, and better the dog. We only sell to people we find trusthworthy. 
To be honest (And i don't understand this myself) but i think the majority of people looking for a dog, wouldn't want a staff. Because of the stigma attached, me i don't understand that as i love the breed. But people always believe the media (which sucks)


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

i am going to have a ramble!!!!!

it does annoy me as well, i'm fine with breeders if they do it responsibly and health tests, take dog back at any age if the owner can't take care of it - so therefore these types of breeders aren't "fulling the fire" and makeing the rescue dog crisis worse. i also like breeders who have a written contract stateing that the new owners must health test there dogs before breeding etc....

i have friends who do the above 

but when people say i have a lovely little cute dog and she would have lovely puppies and breed her, without a thought of what they are doing. argggggg!
Why!


i have a GSD who got hip scored and has good hips (she was hip scored) i have her pedigree. loads of people urged me to breed from her - but i didn't she was spayed.

it is a shame when certain rescues don't have certain criteria for certain dogs for instance stating that none of the dogs will go anywhere that doesn't have a garden. i live ina flat but they are lots of decent walks near by where i can take my dog!


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## poodlemad (Feb 23, 2009)

unfortunately the sad fact is that most of the rescue centres make it so hard for people to adopt one that they turn elsewhere and alot of people like the dog to grow with the family and not be grown already,some dogs can have behavioural problems from pounds that just cannot be cured,my mum took on a very distressed poodle that paced the floor like a caged ild animal and she thought after lots of love he would change but alas he didn't and after many vets appointments they agreed it was best to put him to sleep so you see a rescue home is not the best option for all


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## Camsie84 (Jan 29, 2008)

I totally agree, and I'm a perfect example that not all dogs that are in rescues are Staffs and German Shepherds. No one that I meet can believe that Ted was a rescue dog. A friend recently rescued cockerpoo and yorkiepoo puppies from Battersea - in this financial climate people are struggling to cope and there are so many dogs that need good homes.

The fact that breeders charge up to £1500 for a puppy amazes me...... some breeds are so inbred that they will have terrible illnesses.

Puppyfarms... don't get me started.

Sadly some people just don't think through all of the options available to them and thoroughly do their research before getting a dog.


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## poodlemad (Feb 23, 2009)

if people did more research on the dog they where buying then they would make a far better choice i always state that they should read up on the breed before taking a puppy from me and if they do decide to leave a deposit then i like to provide them with information to read as an extra so they go into the situation with there eyes wide open


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else get mad??????????????????? :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:
> 
> How the hell can people keep buying puppys and breeders keep breeding when we have such a terrrible rescue crisis?
> 
> ...


Erm, What are you supposed to do if refused by rescues and you dont go to a breeder? Surely that only leaves accidental pet litters and cuddly toys!!
I feel really sad now that I got refused for a rescue pooch. I think my dogs have a fantastic life and my attention pretty much constantly.

Having said that I would go rescue next time, maybe an ex breeding bitch (or would this be seen as contributing to the problem??) What annoys me is that if rescues really cared about saving animals lives they would be more forthcoming with information. Imagine how many dogs could be saved if instead of saying "sorry you dont fit our criteria", they said "sorry you dont fit our criteria but have you considered a breed rescue?, or this list of smaller rescues?" A willingness to let people know that some rescues would consider them would certainly save some dogs and stop people like me feeling so disheartened we give up on the whole idea.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

poodlemad said:


> unfortunately the sad fact is that most of the rescue centres make it so hard for people to adopt one that they turn elsewhere


You see...the thing that gets me is that we hear the constant mantra that we should only buy from responsible breeders.

Well, responsible breeders have waiting lists, they have criteria (often exceeding the rescue centres), they must turn away a lot of enquiries yet I have never seen anyone complain that breeders criteria is so tough that they've had to turn elsewhere - they just find another breeder, I suppose.

Yet rescues that try to ensure that their dogs go to good homes are regularly lambasted and accused to being excessive, obstructive and, sometimes, of being the author of the dogs' misfortune.

Level playing field, please.

If someone wants a dog without questions asked, if they want a dog now, today, hassle-free that matches the cash in your pocket then there's a puppyfarmer, dog dealer or petshop just waiting for their business. But lets not imply that rescues have somehow forced their hand. It's their choice, their conscience.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

I wanted a poodle to show and you can't do that with one from a rescue so I don't see the problem with getting puppies for the likes of that if they are health tested etc. For now I'll continue to do that and hopefully even get a pup from Blu one day. One day way off in the future I'll get a rescue poodle or 2 but it won't be for a long time and when the time comes it will only be a poodle. Normal rescue centres very rarely have poodles in and when the Dogs Trust do they seem to be passing them onto the breed rescue instead because they are so full. Rescues aren't for everyone because they have alot of staffy/ staffy crosses etc and not everyone wants that kind of dog.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> What annoys me is that if rescues really cared about saving animals lives they would be more forthcoming with information. Imagine how many dogs could be saved if instead of saying "sorry you dont fit our criteria", they said "sorry you dont fit our criteria but have you considered a breed rescue?, or this list of smaller rescues?" A willingness to let people know that some rescues would consider them would certainly save some dogs and stop people like me feeling so disheartened we give up on the whole idea.


Have I read this right?

Are you maintaining that a rescue who doesn't do this doesn't care about saving animals?


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## Meggie (Oct 10, 2009)

> unfortunately the sad fact is that most of the rescue centres make it so hard for people to adopt one QUOTE]
> 
> Rescue centres have criteria for a reason. They want to ensure any dog they rehome will not end up back in rescue. Some are overzealous, some not enough, most somewhere in between.
> 
> ...


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I work 12hr shifts. The breeders I spoke to were very concerned but allowed me to explain that it was only 2-3 times a week. tha dogs would go to a sitter for 4hrs and only be alone from midnight to 8.30am. Ihave very happy dogs who barely notice Im not home.
Every single rescue I spoke to only heard 12hrs and wouldnt let me explain the circumstances at all. There is a difference between talking to a person and an organisation and sadly its the dogs who suffer..


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Great post! And one that needs massive public awareness, I think JSR (working in a rescue) has very strong views on this, which I admire her for!

Yes, if people stopped breeding for just a short time then this would be a huge boost for the shelters, and hopefully people would take on a dog /pup that NEVER asked to be born!! IS is very very upsetting!

BUT, again I come back to irresponsible breeding, many many people are breeding litters without reason, OK I am NOT saying that you will NEVER find a well breed dog in shelters! This is JUST not true. The relentless breeding by those with not ethics has drastically contributed to these problems, coupled with the fact that due to the current economic climate many many people are breeding from their pets just to raise a few bob!!

A very said state of afairs!

I am considering very very hard myself now which way to go! and asking myself do I really NEED that show pup!

DT


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> Have I read this right?
> 
> Are you maintaining that a rescue who doesn't do this doesn't care about saving animals?


I saw a shop assistant in Superdrug reccommend a customer try Boots coz they didnt stock the shampoo she wanted. Surely a dog is at least as important as hair care products??


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## Meggie (Oct 10, 2009)

> There is a difference between talking to a person and an organisation and sadly its the dogs who suffer..


I totally agree, but assuming a breeder has one or two litters a year, possibly less than that, they won't be vetting that many homes. They will also, most likely, keep in contact with the new owners certainly while they settle in and are young, and hopefully, throughout their lives.

Rescues, on the other hand, are probably rehoming as many dogs in a week as a breeder homes in a year. To do look at them all individually and to maintain the contact in the way a breeder does would be impossible.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> Erm, What are you supposed to do if refused by rescues and you dont go to a breeder? Surely that only leaves accidental pet litters and cuddly toys!!
> I feel really sad now that I got refused for a rescue pooch. I think my dogs have a fantastic life and my attention pretty much constantly.
> 
> Having said that I would go rescue next time, maybe an ex breeding bitch (or would this be seen as contributing to the problem??) What annoys me is that if rescues really cared about saving animals lives they would be more forthcoming with information. Imagine how many dogs could be saved if instead of saying "sorry you dont fit our criteria", they said "sorry you dont fit our criteria but have you considered a breed rescue?, or this list of smaller rescues?" A willingness to let people know that some rescues would consider them would certainly save some dogs and stop people like me feeling so disheartened we give up on the whole idea.


I have 3 rescue dogs. I had the same problem with the big rescue organisations, so rathar than give up, I got my first 2 from Greek Animal Rescue and the third from a private adoption website.

You don't just have to go to Dogs Trust, RSPCA, Batterse etc. There are loads of smaller organisations who have the facility to be lot more flexible. Not to mention the amount of members on here who work in rescue. I bet they would love to help.

So no, I do not buy the excuse that the rescue centres are too "stringent". I am living proof of that.

As for "if rescue centres really cared about saving animals". What a load of old tosh! It is the reason why the volunteers work unpaid.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

CheekoAndCo said:


> I wanted a poodle to show and you can't do that with one from a rescue so I don't see the problem with getting puppies for the likes of that if they are health tested etc. For now I'll continue to do that and hopefully even get a pup from Blu one day. One day way off in the future I'll get a rescue poodle or 2 but it won't be for a long time and when the time comes it will only be a poodle. Normal rescue centres very rarely have poodles in and when the Dogs Trust do they seem to be passing them onto the breed rescue instead because they are so full. Rescues aren't for everyone because they have alot of staffy/ staffy crosses etc and not everyone wants that kind of dog.


And I guess this is what I don;t get.

I look at the photo of that staffy who so desperately needs a home and I could not comprehend for a single minute getting a dog just to "show it".

I'm sorry, but it is this selfishness that I just don't understand.

How about giving a dog a home because it needs it, rather than what you want?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I wanted a health tested, purebred, show lined dog. I also wanted a pup so I decided to go for a reputable breeder. Rescues wouldn't give me one because we have regular visits from young children and our garden doesn't have a 6ft high fence. My godmother tried rescues too, but got turned down because of these same issues, and also went for a breeder's pup. As long as the breeders are reputable and are doing all the right things (health testing etc), then I don't see the problem. If people stopped breeding their dogs, we'd eventually have no dogs left. I also don't like the fact that the rescue will always "own" your dog and you have to do everything they say, like neuter the dog. What if I don't want to neuter my dog? It should be my choice, which was another reason why I went to a breeder.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> And I guess this is what I don;t get.
> 
> I look at the photo of that staffy who so desperately needs a home and I could not comprehend for a single minute getting a dog just to "show it".
> 
> ...


because if you want to show (i did at first, but Ollie wasn't up to it), then that's your choice. Like I want to do agility, does that make me a bad person? I think you are being a bit harsh, it's people's choices and if they go to reputable breeders, then what's the problem?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

If you got the jist of my posts you would realiese Im totally pro rescue! What Im saying is that the smaller rescues that consider individual circumstances often dont have the publicity of the larger ones. If rescues could point people in the right direction more dogs could be saved. Frankly if I hadnt joined this forum |I wouldnt be aware of the many different avenues you can pursue when getting a dog.
Rather then vilify people disillusioned with the system it may be better to encourage greater general knowledge. That was my point!!


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## Meggie (Oct 10, 2009)

> I'm sorry, but it is this selfishness that I just don't understand.
> 
> How about giving a dog a home because it needs it, rather than what you want?


Gosh, that's a bit harsh. Many people enjoy activities with their dogs, rather than just taking them for walks and enjoying their companionship around the home. This often requires a particular breed/type/quality of dog.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> I wanted a poodle to show and you can't do that with one from a rescue so I don't see the problem with getting puppies for the likes of that if they are health tested etc. For now I'll continue to do that and hopefully even get a pup from Blu one day. One day way off in the future I'll get a rescue poodle or 2 but it won't be for a long time and when the time comes it will only be a poodle. Normal rescue centres very rarely have poodles in and when the Dogs Trust do they seem to be passing them onto the breed rescue instead because they are so full. Rescues aren't for everyone because they have alot of staffy/ staffy crosses etc and not everyone wants that kind of dog.


If you don't want a rescue that is fine. Really, it is. I wish more people would consider a rescue but there's not enough rescues for everyone who wants a dog.

If you don't want a rescue there might be several perfectly valid reasons. But the ones that are so often offered are just nonsense. On this forum I have seen people declare that rescues would not home to them for various reasons that I know full well don't apply to many (sometimes most) rescues. People get turned away from one rescue and then misrepresent that as being turned away by the whole rescue system. Often people claim that they can't get a rescue when they haven't even tried but base their claim on the reported experience of a relative, friend or workmate. It's rubbish.

There are many, many different rescues and they all have different criteria. Smaller rescues tend to be more flexible but even they may not have a dog to suit your situation at the time you enquire. Will people wait for the right dog? Sometimes, yes. But frequently they will rather say 'What about _that_ dog?' and when the answer comes back that the rescue doesn't consider _that_ dog suited to their home then they complain that the rescue system has 'forced' them to go to a breeder.

And it's so easy, isn't it? Open the paper, flick to the classifieds and you can have the breed of your choice before the weekend.

For people who, for valid reasons, decide against rescue. Who source a good breeder, who meet that criteria, go on the waiting list and, in full time, collect their pup...fine! Such people are not aiding the rescue crisis but, to be honest, such people rarely add to it either.

For those who turn to classifieds after little or no effort, those who say they 'would have got a rescue but...', those who are content to enrich the puppyfarmer for their own convenience, try not to rationalise it by slagging off rescues and their commitment to finding the best of homes.


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

Reading this thread it started me wondering, what % of those dogs in rescue were oridgnally brought from breeders? How can someone even Afford to pay a top price for a top dog and then let it go to a rescue because 'it don't fit in' I know the majority of GOOD breeders will take there dogs back if theres a problem. But i would be intresting to find out how many dogs in rescue come from 'Good' Breeders?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I wanted a health tested, purebred, show lined dog. I also wanted a pup so I decided to go for a reputable breeder. Rescues wouldn't give me one because we have regular visits from young children and our garden doesn't have a 6ft high fence. My godmother tried rescues too, but got turned down because of these same issues, and also went for a breeder's pup. As long as the breeders are reputable and are doing all the right things (health testing etc), then I don't see the problem. If people stopped breeding their dogs, we'd eventually have no dogs left. I also don't like the fact that the rescue will always "own" your dog and you have to do everything they say, like neuter the dog. What if I don't want to neuter my dog? It should be my choice, which was another reason why I went to a breeder.


The problem is , in my opinion, is it is selfish. You are bringing new life into the world, when you could have saved a life.

Even if the "back yard breeders" stopped breeding. We would still have a problem, the excuse that "if the breeding stopped, then there would be no quality dogs", is complete rubbish and is used to clear people's consciences and make it easier for them to accept. Or you hear "I only got the puppy because it needed a home". Again, complete rubbish. By buying a puppy you are investing in that breeders future.

Have you ever heard of a rescue centre taking back a dog? Unless there is a damm good reason, this will never happen. When you take a dog, it is yours. However, I suppose another great excuse.

Dogs and cats have been neutered for years and with few side effects. As the dog "would you rather be neutered or sit in a cage for the rest of your life or maybe get put down". What would the dog say?

But this is not about what the dog wants, it is about what you want. Hence, the reason for this post.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> If you got the jist of my posts you would realiese Im totally pro rescue! What Im saying is that the smaller rescues that consider individual circumstances often dont have the publicity of the larger ones. If rescues could point people in the right direction more dogs could be saved. Frankly if I hadnt joined this forum |I wouldnt be aware of the many different avenues you can pursue when getting a dog.
> Rather then vilify people disillusioned with the system it may be better to encourage greater general knowledge. That was my point!!


And a very good point. Maybe we can get something done to make the big organisations aware of this? x


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## slakey (May 9, 2009)

I wanted a puppy and that's why I bought from a breeder, and I did have a look at my rescue centers and they didn't have any Labrador puppies, and since I had my heart set on a Labrador puppy, I'm not going to adopt a breed that I don't want. Also I had to take into consideration that Zeus isn't all that good with other dogs, so getting a puppy would help him get used to another dog, and they could bond better then if I were to get a rescue.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> The problem is , in my opinion, is it is selfish. You are bringing new life into the world, when you could have saved a life.
> 
> Even if the "back yard breeders" stopped breeding. We would still have a problem, the excuse that "if the breeding stopped, then there would be no quality dogs", is complete rubbish and is used to clear people's consciences and make it easier for them to accept. Or you hear "I only got the puppy because it needed a home". Again, complete rubbish. By buying a puppy you are investing in that breeders future.
> 
> ...


Did I say that if breeders stopped breeding, there would be no quality dogs? You are putting words into my mouth, think about it, if there was no breeding, no dogs would fill the places of dogs that had died, so they would become extinct. That's why it's stupid to say all dogs should be neutered, then there would be no reproduction.

My dog's breeder was very good and if I'm giving her money for the pup for her to live on, then great as she deserved it. It is about what you want. In the future, I want a border collie to do agility with, I can't do that with a rescue, not get to the highest level and teach it from scratch. I also want health tested dogs, what's wrong with that. You'll only get health tested dogs from breeders, so are you saying it's ok for all dogs to not be health tested cos rescues aren't?

My dog gets everything he could want, he gets what HE WANTS, and in return, he does a bit of what I WANT, it's a two way thing.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> And I guess this is what I don;t get.
> 
> I look at the photo of that staffy who so desperately needs a home and I could not comprehend for a single minute getting a dog just to "show it".
> 
> ...


I don't like staffies. I will never own one. The only breed for me is a poodle because it's all I've been brought up with. It's not my fault that staffy ended up there so why should I solve it when I want a poodle? I get itchy eyed etc when I'm around other dogs and I don't have a clue what breed it is because I'm around so many at classes and shows so it could easily be a staffy. And I'm not going to just 'show it'.. I compete in obediance and a collie isn't for me so I need a dog near as smart as a collie and it just so happens a poodle is also this dog. I want to do agility and flyball too so I want a poodle I can train from scratch for all of these activities. I enjoy dog grooming and sitting for hours on end brushing, grooming etc and you get this from a poodle too. So really a poodle is the perfect dog for me and I'll never change this over to another breed of dog just because someone thinks I'm selfish for wanting to compete with my dog and not get one from a rescue instead.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Meggie said:


> Gosh, that's a bit harsh. Many people enjoy activities with their dogs, rather than just taking them for walks and enjoying their companionship around the home. This often requires a particular breed/type/quality of dog.


When it comes to rescue's, I am harsh and I make absolutely no apologies for that.

Why can't you enjoy these activities with a rescue dog? So are you saying that out of all the thousands of dogs who need a home, you can only do the things YOU want with a puppy?

Of course not, but it is the easiest option.....


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Rescues wouldn't give me one because we have regular visits from young children and our garden doesn't have a 6ft high fence.


Once again (because I addressed these points whne you made them on another thread) rescues have varying criteria. To argue that your situation brred you from the rescue route is just plain false. You didn't want the rescue route which is _fine_ but don't blame rescues for it!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

CheekoAndCo said:


> I don't like staffies. I will never own one. The only breed for me is a poodle because it's all I've been brought up with. It's not my fault that staffy ended up there so why should I solve it when I want a poodle? I get itchy eyed etc when I'm around other dogs and I don't have a clue what breed it is because I'm around so many at classes and shows so it could easily be a staffy. And I'm not going to just 'show it'.. I compete in obediance and a collie isn't for me so I need a dog near as smart as a collie and it just so happens a poodle is also this dog. I want to do agility and flyball too so I want a poodle I can train from scratch for all of these activities. I enjoy dog grooming and sitting for hours on end brushing, grooming etc and you get this from a poodle too. So really a poodle is the perfect dog for me and I'll never change this over to another breed of dog just because someone thinks I'm selfish for wanting to compete with my dog and not get one from a rescue instead.


And the reason for this post was I just don;t get it. Look at the amount of times you use the word "I" in that post.

For me, it is about the dogs not about what "I" want.

Do you not think most of us would love to have the sort of dog you describe? Or be able to do the sort of things you describe?

Of course we would.

Why don't we?

Because who the hell would help these dogs?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> And the reason for this post was I just don;t get it. Look at the amount of times you use the word "I" in that post.
> 
> For me, it is about the dogs not about what "I" want.
> 
> ...


It's people's choices, let them do what they want. Why are you trying to change people over to your side of thinking? Everyone's different and we all make different choices.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

3 red dogs said:


> Reading this thread it started me wondering, what % of those dogs in rescue were oridgnally brought from breeders? How can someone even Afford to pay a top price for a top dog and then let it go to a rescue because 'it don't fit in' I know the majority of GOOD breeders will take there dogs back if theres a problem. But i would be intresting to find out how many dogs in rescue come from 'Good' Breeders?


I would imagine that it would not be very many.

If a good breeder does their vetting and has a promise that the person return the dog. Then I cannot see that these dogs will end up in rescue. I think it would be very few.


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## Meggie (Oct 10, 2009)

> Why can't you enjoy these activities with a rescue dog? So are you saying that out of all the thousands of dogs who need a home, you can only do the things YOU want with a puppy?


Some activities you can do with a rescue, others require a kc registered dog (and not just showing), so it would not be possible. Rescues do not pass on the registered papers to new owners.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I would imagine that it would not be very many.
> 
> If a good breeder does their vetting and has a promise that the person return the dog. Then I cannot see that these dogs will end up in rescue. I think it would be very few.


exactly, so you're saying that good breeders and good owners aren't adding to the rescue crisis? then why are you arguing that people should always get dogs from rescues?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> Once again (because I addressed these points whne you made them on another thread) rescues have varying criteria. To argue that your situation brred you from the rescue route is just plain false. You didn't want the rescue route which is _fine_ but don't blame rescues for it!


The question is would sevenpets have gone the rescue route if she knew their was a rescue that would accept her?

What I think would be great would be a website where you answered a questionnaire about all your pros and cons for having a dog and it gave you a list of rescues that would accept you. I can dream cant I??


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## slakey (May 9, 2009)

Oh I forgot to put in my last post, Zeus was a rescue  But Milo was bought.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

3 red dogs said:


> Reading this thread it started me wondering, what % of those dogs in rescue were oridgnally brought from breeders? How can someone even Afford to pay a top price for a top dog and then let it go to a rescue because 'it don't fit in' I know the majority of GOOD breeders will take there dogs back if theres a problem. But i would be intresting to find out how many dogs in rescue come from 'Good' Breeders?


It would be interesting but first you'd have to define a 'good breeder' and you'd find that everyone has a different notion.

The rescue I assist has a 'branch' that sort of specialises in a small number of rare (but demanding) breeds. It is, in fact, the only breed specific rescue that I know that has absolutely no connection with breeding - past or present. A high % of intake comes originally from a small number of breeders (some show breeders) who _say _they will take dogs back but in reality...

If the plans for compulsory microchipping get passed into law it may shed some light on this question.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> The question is would sevenpets have gone the rescue route if she knew their was a rescue that would accept her?


it was looked at rescues first, but then we wanted to a pup who was health tested etc, so then looked at breeders.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> And the reason for this post was I just don;t get it. Look at the amount of times you use the word "I" in that post.
> 
> For me, it is about the dogs not about what "I" want.
> 
> ...


The poodle enjoys all of these activies aswell as myself so really it's about me and the dog not just 'I'.

You don't know enough about me or my life to say that I should get a rescue etc. Activies with my dogs are one of the few things I can do so why shouldn't I get the breed of dog I enjoy. Poodle is the perfect dog for me and that's not my problem that they are rare to come by in rescue.

At the end of the day poodles are for me and not a staffy or whatever from a rescue. I don't go lecturing you for getting a rescue dog so don't go doing it to me for wanting a well bred puppy.

O if you didn't know I donate to rescues every month anyway so as far as I'm concerend I do my bit.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> It's people's choices, let them do what they want. Why are you trying to change people over to your side of thinking? Everyone's different and we all make different choices.


I just don't get it, that;s all. It's not about changing people's opinions, it is about helping dogs.

The trouble is you have critised rescue centres, when you don't even have a rescue dog. You have left yourself wide open........


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## Meggie (Oct 10, 2009)

But i would be intresting to find out how many dogs in rescue come from 'Good' Breeders?

Very, very few. And in the only case I know of personally, the breeder was contacted and they came and picked up the dogs and either kept/rehomed it themselves. The overwhelming majority are from puppy farmers, people breeding their bets and the like.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> The question is would sevenpets have gone the rescue route if she knew their was a rescue that would accept her?


There almost certainly is one that would accept her.



> What I think would be great would be a website where you answered a questionnaire about all your pros and cons for having a dog and it gave you a list of rescues that would accept you. I can dream cant I??


Or brush up on your programming skills. 

Good idea, btw.

Incidentally there are internet sites that specialise in advertising rescue dogs from various sources. Some of these have a 'Homes Offered' section where prospective adopters can post their situation and requirements for rescues to peruse.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I just don't get it, that;s all. It's not about changing people's opinions, it is about helping dogs.
> 
> The trouble is you have critised rescue centres, when you don't even have a rescue dog. You have left yourself wide open........


well, i wouldn't criticize rescue centres if I had a rescue dog would I? I criticize them but then again, I wouldn't get one from them anyway.


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## slakey (May 9, 2009)

Even better would be a search engine/questionnaire, where you'd put in your details etc and what you can offer the dog, then the results would show rescue dogs that would be best suited for yourself, then the rescue centers number and the option to arrange a house visit from one of the rescue center personals to see if your house is in the right condition for that particular rescue dog...


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## Meggie (Oct 10, 2009)

The information is out there and readily available if someone is really interested in getting a rescue. I don't understand why it should be down to rescues to go to the nth degree to get homes, when the the prospective adopter is not prepared / doesn't do that with their research. Saying that they went to a rescue and were refused so gave up and bought a pup is a cop out in most cases. There is so much information on the www that if someone really wants a rescue, I cannot see why they wouldn't get one. I can only assume the 'easier' option is to looking the freeads and buy a puppy from a less than reputable breeder, because a reputable breeder would be every bit as stringent with their vetting as rescues are.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> The trouble is you have critised rescue centres, when you don't even have a rescue dog.


As someone who didnt have the knowledge or computing skills:blushing: to realiese what options were out there and so didnt get the rescue dog they originally wanted arent I justified in giving constructive critiscism on where I think they are going wrong??
I dont think attacking everyone who doesnt have a rescue dog is very productive. Surely those of you who are lucky enuf to own a second hand dog should be singing their praises and encouraging other to follow in your footsteps?? Be an ambassador for rescue. Inform, encouarge and teach dont berate, attack and judge.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> exactly, so you're saying that good breeders and good owners aren't adding to the rescue crisis? then why are you arguing that people should always get dogs from rescues?


Good breeders are not DIRECTLY adding to the crisis. They are INDIRECTLY adding to it, because if you could not get a dog from a breeder then, you would have to go to rescue, if you wanted a dog.

So therefore good breeders are indirectly not helping.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Good breeders are not DIRECTLY adding to the crisis. They are INDIRECTLY adding to it, because if you could not get a dog from a breeder then, you would have to go to rescue, if you wanted a dog.
> 
> So therefore good breeders are indirectly not helping.


but people have different lifestyles, different choices, different opinions, why can't they just make them without being hounded for having a well-bred, health tested, happy dog?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> As someone who didnt have the knowledge or computing skills:blushing: to realiese what options were out there and so didnt get the rescue dog they originally wanted arent I justified in giving constructive critiscism on where I think they are going wrong??
> I dont think attacking everyone who doesnt have a rescue dog is very productive. Surely those of you who are lucky enuf to own a second hand dog should be singing their praises and encouraging other to follow in your footsteps?? Be an ambassador for rescue. Inform, encouarge and teach dont berate, attack and judge.


Yes you are entitled to give your opinion. The above quote was not directed at you.

I generally don't "attack" everybody for not getting a rescue. But I don't think it hurts to remind people that they could be helping rather than doing what they want.

As I said, I am harsh on this subject, but I don't feel bad about highlighting the problems, all be it, maybe the wrong way!


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> arent I justified in giving constructive critiscism on where I think they are going wrong??


Implying that a rescue doesn't care about its animals because they didn't refer someone on to a rescue whose criteria they don't agree with is a bit beyond 'constructive' criticism.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but people have different lifestyles, different choices, different opinions, why can't they just make them without being hounded for having a well-bred, health tested, happy dog?


This is where this thread will go round and round in circles.

My point, was I do what I do for the dogs, not really for myself.

The thread was started because I don't understand how you can choose a well-bred, health tested, dog. When there are so many that need a good home.

You mention the word happy?

Which dog is happiest? A puppy who is taken from it's mother? Or a dog who is given a lovely home, free from abuse, safe, warm and comfortable. 

We will have to agree to disagree.


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## Meggie (Oct 10, 2009)

> They are INDIRECTLY adding to it, because if you could not get a dog from a breeder then, you would have to go to rescue, if you wanted a dog.
> 
> So therefore good breeders are indirectly not helping.


I don't think that's true in reality. If you could not get a dog from a breeder and the only dogs available were rescues what would happen when the rescues were all rehomed?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> This is where this thread will go round and round in circles.
> 
> My point, was I do what I do for the dogs, not really for myself.
> 
> ...


all dogs are taken from their mothers at some stage. ut: so are you saying cos I got my dog from a breeder, that he's not in a lovely home, not free from abuse, not safe, not warm and not comfortable. ut:

so by your standards, all dogs should not be well bred or health tested?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Meggie said:


> I don't think that's true in reality. If you could not get a dog from a breeder and the only dogs available were rescues what would happen when the rescues were all rehomed?


LOL. Do I really have to answer that question???

What a wonderful thought, all the rescue's re-homed.

There will always be breeding, because we have a need for working dogs, police, search and rescue, guide dogs etc etc.

A proportionate breeding programme would be the answer.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> LOL. Do I really have to answer that question???
> 
> What a wonderful thought, all the rescue's re-homed.
> 
> ...


so people are breeding for people's wants, like guiding people?

why don't they get rescues then?

so what's wrong with jo public getting dogs from breeders, if these people (that are obviously higher up than us) can have dogs from breeders?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else get mad??????????????????? :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:
> 
> How the hell can people keep buying puppys and breeders keep breeding when we have such a terrrible rescue crisis?
> 
> ...


Ok VERY GOOD thread, but some gross sweeping statements made there!!!!

1 - sometimes not even the smaller independant rescues will consider a person because they too have policies and sometimes dont have the time, money or resources to look deeply into EVERY individual case, there has to be a cut off point somewhere, and this will leave some people unable to adopt a rescue. What about those who are unable to travel far? I had to travel right across the country to get my boys! I dont drive but i found a way, others may not be in that position. Not everyone who is refused is a bad owner, they just arent able to be pidgeonholed. Many rescues wont consider people who have zero dog experience too, should all these people go without a dog?, and if not how does a novice get a dog if not from a breeder when the rescues wont touch them. The point made about a rescue forwarding details of other rescues... why the hell should they?, they have rules for what they consider makes a good owner, if the person doesnt fit that, then why would they help them find a dog elsewhere?

2 - you have made the exception of those with kids, which is fair enough, but alot of dogs in rescues are assessed with children! I have young kids, cats and rescue dogs - personally i dont see kids as an excuse at all.

3 - following on from your one exception what about these: working dogs?, those who train their own assistance dogs?

4 - A good breeder will ALWAYS take back their dogs if a problem occurred, but i do agree with another poster that maybe in an indirect mannor by continuing to breed they are robbing a rescue of a home... thing is i dont see how you would persuade most people to rescue.

Now after i have said all of that... the people on this forum and in this country have a RIGHT to spend their money on what they want! I hate dogs being spoken about as possessions, but under the laws of this country that is exactly what they are!

Not everyone shops in charity shops, not everyone wants a 2nd hand dog....harsh but true.

You cannot FORCE people to rescue, and ranting over it really isnt the right way to go about persuading them. All you succeed in doing is alienating those who already have dogs from breeders.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> Implying that a rescue doesn't care about its animals because they didn't refer someone on to a rescue whose criteria they don't agree with is a bit beyond 'constructive' criticism.


To answer that point I said IF they cared about the dogs surely they would suggest other animals that someone could help? Im not sure anyone could argue with that because it goes towards their good intent rather than actually slating them!

But dont alot of police and sniffer dogs come from rescue backgrounds. I thought some of those unsuitable as pets made brilliant working dogs? Its a whole circle of life thing!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> so people are breeding for people's wants, like guiding people?
> 
> why don't they get rescues then?
> 
> so what's wrong with jo public getting dogs from breeders, if these people (that are obviously higher up than us) can have dogs from breeders?


I don't think breeding should be stopped. I just think that for the majority of people they should go to rescue centres. Unless you have very young childre, as stated.

Why do you think that the police and the blind and customs don't get their dogs from rescue's? That is a bit of a silly question really.

I wouldn't class a blind person or a police dog handler, that is searching for bombs or body parts, as higher up than us. They just need a specific dog for a specific reason.

Not sure I am getting your point..... There is a dfference between you getting a pup because you want to "do a pretty show" with it and the police training dogs to save lives


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

what about rare and endangered dog breeds?

where do you draw the line?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> To answer that point I said IF they cared about the dogs surely they would suggest other animals that someone could help? Im not sure anyone could argue with that because it goes towards their good intent rather than actually slating them!
> 
> But dont alot of police and sniffer dogs come from rescue backgrounds. I thought some of those unsuitable as pets made brilliant working dogs? Its a whole circle of life thing!!


The police run their own breeding programmes. I am sure that other agencies or organisation do the same.

I'm sure some rescue dogs are used, but the majority are bred. Most rescue dogs are not cut out for this sort of work.

In order to get a dog to accept the sort of situations that a police dog, or a guide dog, or customs etc, the puppy needs to have it introduced at a very early age.

6-12 weeks is the optimum socialisation period for a puppy.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> The police run their own breeding programmes. I am sure that other agencies or organisation do the same.
> 
> I'm sure some rescue dogs are used, but the majority are bred. Most rescue dogs are not cut out for this sort of work.
> 
> ...


you stil havent asnwered about other working dogs?

Gundogs or sheepdogs? none of these are saving peoples lives...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> all dogs are taken from their mothers at some stage. ut: so are you saying cos I got my dog from a breeder, that he's not in a lovely home, not free from abuse, not safe, not warm and not comfortable. ut:
> 
> so by your standards, all dogs should not be well bred or health tested?


I am just merely saying that a rescue dog is probably even happier to get a good home.

If you are breeding, then a dog should be heath tested and all the things that go with it. But for me, I don't care about that.

All I want to do is give a dog a home that it needs, not care about health testing. People who rescue, do not do it with health tests in mind.

My dogs will be far healthier and live far longer than a pedigree dog anyway.,


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I don't think breeding should be stopped. I just think that for the majority of people they should go to rescue centres. Unless you have very young childre, as stated.
> 
> Why do you think that the police and the blind and customs don't get their dogs from rescue's? That is a bit of a silly question really.
> 
> ...


but some people want a specific job for a specific reason. I want an agility dog for use in agility. why does this make me a bad person? why is Cheekoandco a bad person because she wants a show dog for showing purposes? it's the same thing, anyone can want a dog for a specific reason, sometimes we want a dog for a specific reason other than as a pet?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> My dogs will be far healthier and live far longer than a pedigree dog anyway.,


How do you know that?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Iy dogs will be far healthier and live far longer than a pedigree dog anyway.,


another generalised grossly innacurate statement!!! 

Crossbreeds after first generation crosses are NOT healther than their pedigree counterparts!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> My dogs will be far healthier and live far longer than a pedigree dog anyway.,


how did you figure that out? are your dogs health tested? (well no by the sounds of your thread) so your dog is more likely to get a disease specific to its breed/breeds than one that's been health tested. is that fair on the dog? how do you know that YOUR dogs are going to live longer than my dog, cos he's a pedigree? what's your magic secret that makes your dogs live longer?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Ok VERY GOOD thread, but some gross sweeping statements made there!!!!
> 
> 1 - sometimes not even the smaller independant rescues will consider a person because they too have policies and sometimes dont have the time, money or resources to look deeply into EVERY individual case, there has to be a cut off point somewhere, and this will leave some people unable to adopt a rescue. What about those who are unable to travel far? I had to travel right across the country to get my boys! I dont drive but i found a way, others may not be in that position. Not everyone who is refused is a bad owner, they just arent able to be pidgeonholed. Many rescues wont consider people who have zero dog experience too, should all these people go without a dog?, and if not how does a novice get a dog if not from a breeder when the rescues wont touch them. The point made about a rescue forwarding details of other rescues... why the hell should they?, they have rules for what they consider makes a good owner, if the person doesnt fit that, then why would they help them find a dog elsewhere?
> 
> ...


As I stated. I have 3 rescue dogs whom I had to research. None came from big organisations and I didn;t have to travel further than 15 miles. So I don't see why if I can do it, then why can't others.

The great thing about a forum is you can "rant" about it. :wink5:

I am entitled to my opinion that I believe it is selfish to go to a breeder, unless you have a specific need (sheep dog included).

Just as others are entitled to come to me and say I am going about it the wrong way.

Thanks for your balanced post by the way x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> you stil havent asnwered about other working dogs?
> 
> Gundogs or sheepdogs? none of these are saving peoples lives...


I have no problem with either of these. They are serving a purpose.

I am not against people getting a dog from a breeder for a specific purpose, but not just "because I want one"


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> How do you know that?


That's what I was thinking! Funnily enough our 2 old poodles and and old poodle I've known have all lived over 16. I know one that's 18 so pedigrees do live long happy lifes.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> That's what I was thinking! Funnily enough our 2 old poodles and and old poodle I've known have all lived over 16. I know one that's 18 so pedigrees do live long happy lifes.


i'm dog sitting two happy 14yr old pedigree chihuahuas at the moment!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but some people want a specific job for a specific reason. I want an agility dog for use in agility. why does this make me a bad person? why is Cheekoandco a bad person because she wants a show dog for showing purposes? it's the same thing, anyone can want a dog for a specific reason, sometimes we want a dog for a specific reason other than as a pet?


There are plenty of dogs in rescue who can do agility.

Just my opinion that I think it is selfish.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but some people want a specific job for a specific reason. I want an agility dog for use in agility. why does this make me a bad person? why is Cheekoandco a bad person because she wants a show dog for showing purposes? it's the same thing, anyone can want a dog for a specific reason, sometimes we want a dog for a specific reason other than as a pet?


Rescue dogs can do agility. Infact there are many, many rescue dogs that compete, some teams comprised of nothing but rescues.

People are free to source a dog from where ever they like, and for what ever reason they like. It just seems to me that you are saying rescues cant be used for certain purposes, agility being an example.
No, you cant show one, but thats about it as far as i know.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I have no problem with either of these. They are serving a purpose.
> 
> I am not against people getting a dog from a breeder for a specific purpose, but not just "because I want one"


People go to a breeder to get the breed of dog they want so either way they are getting what they want. Even at a rescue some people get what they want because they only go there to look for a breed of dog they like. Breed rescues are the same. People only go there to get what they want because that rescue only has the breed of dog they like.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> How do you know that?


To be honest, it was a bit of a sweeping statement and if i could be bothered, I would go in and edit it.

Pure bred dogs and cats, often suffer with heridetory health issues. Where as with mutts, they tend not to have the same. Some do of course, but many don't.

We could turn this into a 50 page long thread on whose dog is the oldest etc etc. But it would get boring.

It was a sweeping statement and one that I appologise for! lol


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Rescue dogs can do agility. Infact there are many, many rescue dogs that compete, some teams comprised of nothing but rescues.
> 
> People are free to source a dog from where ever they like, and for what ever reason they like. It just seems to me that you are saying rescues cant be used for certain purposes, agility being an example.
> No, you cant show one, but thats about it as far as i know.


ok, but still I'm free to get a dog from a rescue, and I want a well-bred, health tested dog. What is wrong with that?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> To be honest, it was a bit of a sweeping statement and if i could be bothered, I would go in and edit it.
> 
> Pure bred dogs and cats, often suffer with heridetory health issues. Where as with mutts, they tend not to have the same. Some do of course, but many don't.
> 
> ...


purebred dogs can be health tested, and cross breeds (especially F1) are very prone to health problems from both breeds.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> That's what I was thinking! Funnily enough our 2 old poodles and and old poodle I've known have all lived over 16. I know one that's 18 so pedigrees do live long happy lifes.


Theres no denying that some breeds have more health issues than other, but having worked in the veterinary field, i can say hand on my heart, that there we saw an equal amount of pedigrees and crossbreeds alike.

Some breeds are pretty healthy. I used to look after a 21 year old poodle called Gimby. Ive met well bred labs in their late teens, wolfhounds living far beyond the average age.

On the other hand ive seen crossbreeds with heart defects, and joint problems. Illnesses and defects will effect all dogs regardless of breed/crossbreed.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> ok, but still I'm free to get a dog from a rescue, and I want a well-bred, health tested dog. What is wrong with that?


Nothing at all. As i said, i have no issue with where anyone gets their dog.

It just came across that you were saying that a rescue dog wont be any good at agility.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> To answer that point I said IF they cared about the dogs surely they would suggest other animals that someone could help?


Hence the implication that, if they fall short of your expectation in this regard, that they do not care for dogs.

Which is patently absurd.

There was a message on the answering machine.

"How much are your dogs and how quickly can I get one?" followed by a first name and mobile number.

Bear in mind that the website gives details of the suggested donation along with the requirement for a completed questionaire and both the website and answering machine message emphasis that a landline number is needed. Do you think the rescue should spend its (always insufficient) resources in returning this call so we could point this guy towards Leigh or somewhere similar? Would it be fair to assume that the rescue doesn't care for dogs if it failed to do this?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Nothing at all. As i said, i have no issue with where anyone gets their dog.
> 
> It just came across that you were saying that a rescue dog wont be any good at agility.


sorry, that wasn't pointed at you, more the OP.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Theres no denying that some breeds have more health issues than other, but having worked in the veterinary field, i can say hand on my heart, that there we saw an equal amount of pedigrees and crossbreeds alike.
> 
> Some breeds are pretty healthy. I used to look after a 21 year old poodle called Gimby. Ive met well bred labs in their late teens, wolfhounds living far beyond the average age.
> 
> On the other hand ive seen crossbreeds with heart defects, and joint problems. Illnesses and defects will effect all dogs regardless of breed/crossbreed.


I wouldn't class a mutt as a cross breed though. surely a cross breed is a dog who is crossed with two dogs?

Whereas with a mutt, it could have many different breeds in it. If this is the case and you have a "mutt" with say 4 different breeds in it, then it is unlikely to get the same sort of health problems. Unless it is unlucky enough to have been 4 dogs with the same health problem i.e hip dysplacia? Therefore because the 4 breeds (in this example) are so watered down, then you are less likely to have health problems.

I am not a medical expert, but that does make sense to me. What is your thoughts on that?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> purebred dogs can be health tested, and cross breeds (especially F1) are very prone to health problems from both breeds.


Health testing is meaningless if it doesn't have a pass/fail point.

Crossbreeds are very unlikely to suffer from disease associated with deleterious recessive genes and they are less likely to suffer auto-immune deficiencies associated with high COI.

Don't know what "very prone" actually relates to in reality nor what source you are relying on.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Health testing is meaningless if it doesn't have a pass/fail point.
> 
> Crossbreeds are very unlikely to suffer from disease associated with deleterious recessive genes and they are less likely to suffer auto-immune deficiencies associated with high COI.
> 
> Don't know what "very prone" actually relates to in reality nor what source you are relying on.


with health-testing, what i mean is that they have good results. sorry if this wasn't clear, it's just my way of saying it.

cross breeds (F1 especially) can get health problems from both breeds of the dog, meaning it can have a ton of health issues, unless the parents are health tested and have come back with good results.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I am not a medical expert, but that does make sense to me. What is your thoughts on that?


Nor am i.

I call any non pedigree dog a crossbreed, even my own. I hate the term mutt.

Genetics is a complex matter. Certain conditions can affect pedigrees and "mutts" alike.

I had to help euthanise a "mutt" that had terribley deformed hips. He certainly wasnt healthier


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I wouldn't class a mutt as a cross breed though. surely a cross breed is a dog who is crossed with two dogs?
> 
> Whereas with a mutt, it could have many different breeds in it. If this is the case and you have a "mutt" with say 4 different breeds in it, then it is unlikely to get the same sort of health problems. Unless it is unlucky enough to have been 4 dogs with the same health problem i.e hip dysplacia? Therefore because the 4 breeds (in this example) are so watered down, then you are less likely to have health problems.
> 
> I am not a medical expert, but that does make sense to me. What is your thoughts on that?


What happens when that same mutt, with 4 different breeds (each with its own hereditory health problems) is bred to another mutt with those same breeds behind it....

You could potentially get pups which are affected by EVERY health problem those breeds have 

Along with that, as genetics works, that same mutt will be carrying some nasty hereditary illnesses which although it wont affect him, only needs to meet another partner who does for their pups to be affected.

You only have to look at the human race, and consider all of the current genetic illnesses which are on the increase... If the thought that crossbreeding bred out these problems then the model of humans doesnt fit. We travel and move further from home much more than previous generations, we chose out partners from further afield, yet the population percentage of children born with genetic illness is increasing!!!! It seems that instead these health problems becoming less frequent - their frequency is increasing at a dramatic rate!


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## Mama Sass (Sep 8, 2009)

Speaking as someone who is currently deciding which route to go down, I have to say that until I joined this fab forum I had no idea that many smaller shelters and rescue centres have less strict criteria than that of say, Dogs Trust or RSPCA. They may very well let you have dog if you have small children/a cat/small garden etc. and it's worth looking at centres everywhere because many of them foster dogs out all over the UK. We did think about buying a pedigree pup but have been horrified by the price of them for starters, and when there are so many in need of rescue it seems silly to spend upwards of £600 for a puppy. 

All it takes is a little research and lots of patience - so many people decide they want a dog and think they have to get one NOW and then make the wrong choice. 

We are waiting until the New Year to find our perfect pooch, but when we start looking properly, I am prepared to wait until the right dog comes along. However, I have nothing against people buying a pup if that is what they want; it's just that my heart belongs to rescue dogs - I have had two in the past with no problems whatsoever and will try that route first.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Mama Sass said:


> Speaking as someone who is currently deciding which route to go down, I have to say that until I joined this fab forum I had no idea that many smaller shelters and rescue centres have less strict criteria than that of say, Dogs Trust or RSPCA. They may very well let you have dog if you have small children/a cat/small garden etc. and it's worth looking at centres everywhere because many of them foster dogs out all over the UK. We did think about buying a pedigree pup but have been horrified by the price of them for starters, and when there are so many in need of rescue it seems silly to spend upwards of £600 for a puppy.
> 
> All it takes is a little research and lots of patience - so many people decide they want a dog and think they have to get one NOW and then make the wrong choice.
> 
> We are waiting until the New Year to find our perfect pooch, but when we start looking properly, I am prepared to wait until the right dog comes along. However, I have nothing against people buying a pup if that is what they want; it's just that my heart belongs to rescue dogs - I have had two in the past with no problems whatsoever and will try that route first.


reputable breeders will have waiting lists, so people who want breeder pups have to wait a long time.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Mama Sass said:


> Speaking as someone who is currently deciding which route to go down, I have to say that until I joined this fab forum I had no idea that many smaller shelters and rescue centres have less strict criteria than that of say, Dogs Trust or RSPCA. They may very well let you have dog if you have small children/a cat/small garden etc. and it's worth looking at centres everywhere because many of them foster dogs out all over the UK. We did think about buying a pedigree pup but have been horrified by the price of them for starters, and when there are so many in need of rescue it seems silly to spend upwards of £600 for a puppy.
> 
> All it takes is a little research and lots of patience - so many people decide they want a dog and think they have to get one NOW and then make the wrong choice.
> 
> We are waiting until the New Year to find our perfect pooch, but when we start looking properly, I am prepared to wait until the right dog comes along. However, I have nothing against people buying a pup if that is what they want; it's just that my heart belongs to rescue dogs - I have had two in the past with no problems whatsoever and will try that route first.


Thanks for sharing that. I can recommend Greek Animal Rescue. But there are lots of people on here who work in rescue centres, who maybe able to help you as well. You can also check out gumtree.com. Unfortunately it has a massive puppy market, but if you are looking for a rescue dog, then there are many people who advertise on there because they cannot cope for monerary reasons or a move etc. x


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Thanks for sharing that. I can recommend Greek Animal Rescue. But there are lots of people on here who work in rescue centres, who maybe able to help you as well. You can also check out gumtree.com. Unfortunately it has a massive puppy market, but if you are looking for a rescue dog, then there are many people who advertise on there because they cannot cope for monerary reasons or a move etc. x


I got mine from a fox pen at a wildlife centre


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> What happens when that same mutt, with 4 different breeds (each with its own hereditory health problems) is bred to another mutt with those same breeds behind it....
> 
> You could potentially get pups which are affected by EVERY health problem those breeds have
> 
> ...


I am not at all knowledable when it comes to this subject, so i willl leave it alone.

But common sense does tell me that health issues are less likely to affect "mutts" than cross breeds or pedigree dogs.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> purebred dogs can be health tested, and cross breeds (especially F1) are very prone to health problems from both breeds.


Fortunately, the statement above is incorrect:

"Crossbred progeny arising from the mating of purebred parents from two separate breeds are referred to as F, progeny, and for traits which are under the control of many genes, might be expected to perform at a level intermediate to the two parent breeds. "

There is no evidence that a first cross is prone to the health problems of the pure bred parents but much evidence to support the opposite view. Whilst neither is proven, statistics come out in favour of a reduction of the traits in first cross.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Fortunately, the statement above is incorrect:
> 
> "Crossbred progeny arising from the mating of purebred parents from two separate breeds are referred to as F, progeny, and for traits which are under the control of many genes, might be expected to perform at a level intermediate to the two parent breeds. "
> 
> There is no evidence that a first cross is prone to the health problems of the pure bred paretns but much evidence to support the opposite view. Whilst neither is proven, statistics come out in favour of a reduction of the traits in first cross.


All correct elmo... first generation crosses tend not to be effected by genetically inherited conditions common in the breeds,

however that is based on a few assumptions and conditions

1 - neither breeds SHARE the same recessive genetic conditions

2 - things like skeletal prblems such as hip/elbow displasia will only give you a rough idea in the best of pedigree matings, when mating two skeletally and strucurally different dog breeds are bred it is impossible to make an educated guess on that. If howver they are very similar in build then the info can be used.

3- neiher parent is affected by any dominant genetic condition... if they are then approx 50% of the pups WILL be affected too.

Now after that... we go onto other things such as skin conditions due to breed type (shar pei for example), as crossing is an unknown, you have no way of predicting which traits the pups will inherit. If the pups inherit the excessive skin of the shar pei's then you wouldnt necessarily be "improving" the health would you?

Like i said... generally F1 crosses tend to be less susceptible to the genetic problems of their parents... but its not always the case.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> with health-testing, what i mean is that they have good results. sorry if this wasn't clear, it's just my way of saying it.


I'm sure it was but we should be aware that 'health tested' doesn't mean good results for the KC or ABS or some breeders. Beverly Costello had Rolo health tested even to the point of MRI scan which showed him the be afflicted but it didn't stop this top breeder form using him to sire another twenty-six litters!



> cross breeds (F1 especially) can get health problems from both breeds of the dog, meaning it can have a ton of health issues, unless the parents are health tested and have come back with good results.


You still haven't supplied a source for this claim about F1s.

It's no good to look at what 'can' afflict a crossbreed without looking at the rate of incidence of those afflictions. In the case of ailments caused by high COI or by deleterious recessive alleles then the possibility of a cross breed being afflicted remains but the rate of incidence will be way lower than either of the closed parent groups.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

poodlemad said:


> unfortunately the sad fact is that most of the rescue centres make it so hard for people to adopt one that they turn elsewhere and alot of people like the dog to grow with the family and not be grown already,some dogs can have behavioural problems from pounds that just cannot be cured,my mum took on a very distressed poodle that paced the floor like a caged ild animal and she thought after lots of love he would change but alas he didn't and after many vets appointments they agreed it was best to put him to sleep so you see a rescue home is not the best option for all


Sounds like it might have been best for the poodle though.

Just think if your mother hadn't tried with him he may have spent his whole life in a miserable cage. This way, at least he was given a chance. He knew some human love. And then was put to rest in peace, free from his misery for all time.

*I think your mother did that poodle a good turn.
*
I am against backyard breeders of any sort or justification. Bonafide breeders for betterment of breed is one thing. There aren't an over abundance of them.

byb on the other hand, are everywhere. wish they could be made illegal somehow. adopting from a byb (whether "purebred" or "cross breed") is just as chancy as adopting from a rescue or shelter. those people don't test or make sure the animals have the best qualities. All they see are dollar signs and "getting back on their investment"

it's disgusting.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Both my boyfriend and I are going to be getting a dog and have decided to go to breeders or breed rescues. We would like a specfic breed of dog. I have nothing agaisnt rescues I met two rescues that had come from puppy mills, they were lovely dogs. One had a very bad case a sa so they got the 2nd dog for the first dog.

Ive rescued my cats when I found them. Has it given me problems? Yes because Horris has many behavoural issues, which may never go away.

My brother wants to get a rescue dog but he also has two breeds of dogs in mind he would like. My mother would also like a dog but she would be better off with a dog from a breeder then a rescue.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> All correct elmo... first generation crosses tend not to be effected by genetically inherited conditions common in the breeds,
> 
> however that is based on a few assumptions and conditions
> 
> ...


Thank you. Whilst I wasn't trying to say that ALL F1's are healthier, I was trying to make the point that not ALL were less healthy and that the statistics for those with healthy parents, shows a trend that reduces some excessive negative traits. As you say, it depends on (or can depend on) the health of the parents (true for all breeding) which is why health testing is so important.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> What happens when that same mutt, with 4 different breeds (each with its own hereditory health problems) is bred to another mutt with those same breeds behind it....
> 
> You could potentially get pups which are affected by EVERY health problem those breeds have


But the rate of incidence will by far lower than those afflicted in each of the breeds. Plus, with a low COI, the pup will have a better auto-immune system.



> as genetics works, that same mutt will be carrying some nasty hereditary illnesses which although it wont affect him, only needs to meet another partner who does for their pups to be affected.


You will never eliminate all the nasty heriditary genetic load without impoverishing the genetic pool beyond the point of benefit. All we can do is minimise the chance of those nasties being expressed in the phenotype. Diversity in king.



> the population percentage of children born with genetic illness is increasing!!!! It seems that instead these health problems becoming less frequent - their frequency is increasing at a dramatic rate!


Source, please.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Both my boyfriend and I are going to be getting a dog and have decided to go to breeders or breed rescues. We would like a specfic breed of dog. I have nothing agaisnt rescues I met two rescues that had come from puppy mills, they were lovely dogs. One had a very bad case a sa so they got the 2nd dog for the first dog.
> 
> Ive rescued my cats when I found them. Has it given me problems? Yes because Horris has many behavoural issues, which may never go away.
> 
> My brother wants to get a rescue dog but he also has two breeds of dogs in mind he would like. My mother would also like a dog but she would be better off with a dog from a breeder then a rescue.


Why would your mother be better off going to a breeder than taking a rescue?


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Why would your mother be better off going to a breeder than taking a rescue?


Because she would be able to find a small dog with a calm temperment. After seeing my brother be attacked by a pitbull like dog (not something every parent wants to see thier two kids run up the street screaming with a dog chasing them and then getting a hold of my brother) She also grew up with dogs that were mixed/unmixed that were aggresive/unfriendly.

So a small dog, with a calm head would better suit my mom


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

My mom will walk across streets,around cars, people at the sight of any large/meduim sized dog.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Because she would be able to find a small dog with a calm temperment. After seeing my brother be attacked by a pitbull like dog (not something every parent wants to see thier two kids run up the street screaming with a dog chasing them and then getting a hold of my brother) She also grew up with dogs that were mixed/unmixed that were aggresive/unfriendly.
> 
> So a small dog, with a calm head would better suit my mom


Do you not think that there are small dogs in rescue as well? I agree that your mum does sound as though she would be quite specific. But don't think that all dogs in rescue are large breeds and have issues.

Some dogs have been deserted through their owner dying.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> My mom will walk across streets,around cars, people at the sight of any large/meduim sized dog.


She shouldn't get a dog then. Because when she walks the dog, the dog will want to meet other dogs. If you don't socialise your dog, then you can end up with problems which you have described. Therefore it is imperative that puppy's get to mix with all types of dogs. By stopping a dog from mixing with other types of dog, you could cause the pup to become fearful as well.

Best your mum sticks with cats x


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> I'm sure it was but we should be aware that 'health tested' doesn't mean good results for the KC or ABS or some breeders. Beverly Costello had Rolo health tested even to the point of MRI scan which showed him the be afflicted but it didn't stop this top breeder form using him to sire another twenty-six litters!
> 
> You still haven't supplied a source for this claim about F1s.
> 
> It's no good to look at what 'can' afflict a crossbreed without looking at the rate of incidence of those afflictions. In the case of ailments caused by high COI or by deleterious recessive alleles then the possibility of a cross breed being afflicted remains but the rate of incidence will be way lower than either of the closed parent groups.


Going back to the point about making assumptions - I assumed that health testing was to ensure good results giving a better chance of reduced risks. If the results come back poor then the only responsible thing to do is not breed. Health testing without declaration of the results and a breeding programme based only on "the best" is pointless...worse than pointless, it denegrates either the "breed" or the chances of the the litter being healthy.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Both my brother and i were thinking if my mom wanted a dog still, she could have a dog walk bring the dog out for walks or we if one of us lived close by and she felt comfortable with our dogs we could live them with her for a night so she would have the companionship of a dog but not be put in the postion of having to face another dog.

As far as im aware my brother has no ill efffect of what happened but then again I dont think hes seen another pitbull up close since it happened.

The three cats in my sig our mine

My mom does have a cat but that cat has issues as well


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I will only rescue dogs, purely because I find them so rewarding, and what a wonderful feeling it is knowing I've helped a needy dog! I can't imagine finding joy from a bought puppy. I know when I did put a deposit on a pup I thought I wanted, I felt so unhappy about buying a dog when I could have rescued, I ended up phoning the breeder and telling her to find her another home, I just couldn't feel happy about this pup I thought I so badly wanted. Truth is, I prefer adults, and I can mostly only get them in rescues.

I know a lot of good breeders say they will take any puppy back, but it always puzzles me, how can they say that? How do they know their situation would not dramatically change so they would not be able to take back the pup? How could they know they would be able to find it another home?


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

In a year or two time we will be thinking about another dog and will be going straight to rescue first 
x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

EmzieAngel said:


> In a year or two time we will be thinking about another dog and will be going straight to rescue first
> x


Great to hear! You will be in a good place as well, because if I remember correctly, it has not all been plain sailing. It was you who was struggling with the lead walking wasn't it?


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

We got Buster from an accidental litter and when we wanted another dog we went to a rescue. The same with Sophie because I really wanted a goldendoodle but I wasn't going to pay some ridiculous amount of money for a crossbreed. Max was given to a rescue when he didn't do well in the showring then chosen by the assistance dog people to become a seizure dog. 
However when I get my next dog I want it to be from a breeder mostly because the two breeds we're considering are pretty rare and the breed rescues probably have insanely long waiting lists. We also want a dog we can show (yes I know we're so selfish for doing this) and can't do that with a rescue and by getting one from a breeder we're killing a rescue. However if I didn't want a show dog I would contact the breed rescue and wait to get one.
I don't see the problem with people getting a dog from a responsible breeder I do disagree with them buying from BYBs or puppy mills though.
I should also add our cat is a rescue and when we get another rabbit it will be from a rescue as well.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I think it's awful on a pet forum that people are being criticized for going to a breeder. It's people's choices, we shouldn't feel like we are being criticized, as long as they go to a reputable breeder.


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## poodlemad (Feb 23, 2009)

i went to a small rescue centre and they were just as bad for turning you away even though they were fit for bursting and couldn't cope,i could have taken them all home to get them out of that stinking hovel infact the place was so bad i reported them to the rspca when i came out it was that bad and you know what the rspca did A BIG FAT NOTHING as per usual because there was no publicity involved i breed my dogs and i breed responsibily and will always take my babies back if they feel they can't keep them for some reason and haven't had to do that once as i've chosen all the right people to take them we've had two dogs from the rescue centres m brother still has one and so does my sister but they have terrible behaviour problems


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I have a rescue dog. I privately rescued my ESS but if i hadn't he would have gone straight to the shelter and no-one wold have wanted him because he had and still has lots of problems and issues.

I am now his 4th and final home.....but he would have been in the shelter for god knows how long.

I am looking at getting another dog once he is 100% settled and trained. I have been researching breeds before i even got Beau. 

I was also going to buy from a breeder...........which is still an option.

I am one of those people who any rescue will not home to. I have 1 dog, 4 cats, small animals and a 3yr old daughter. 

But i won't give up, i am now thinking of getting a retired Greyhound but again that is going to be a struggle.

If all failing that i will go to the breed rescues or re-home an ex breeding bitch/stud or even an adolescant that i show breeder kept on and he/she didn't make the standard.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Source, please.


Primary exclusive examples...

Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy now effects 1 in every 3500 live male births worldwide. Some countries have a higher incidence than others...

The incidence in 1975 was 1 in every 4500 worldwide

Via pubmed

Interestingly in Denmark the population proportion of DMD (currently 1 in 3700 approx) has increased by 3% since 1977

Also via pubmed

BBC reported recently although i am struggling to find the article online about the increase of population of cystic fibrosis, the number per live births has increased by around 2% since the 80's

It is a simple assumption that as some of the most common genetic anomolies are on the increase then they all are - or would be if we didnt use so much pre-natal testing to detect the risks of common trisomys.


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

My lot are all from breeders, my 2 labs admittedly not from reputable ones, Archie we do show.
I have no problems with getting a rescue, but we chose to go to a reputable breeder for Archie.
Good on you for encouraging people to consider rescues, we would definitely have a rescue in the future, but will go through breed rescue


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

I have 8 rescue dogs here at the moment and a couple of oldies that i brought. My next dog i will be going to a breeder because i want to show as well as agility flyball and obedience. The dog i've chosen is a rare breed and a gun dog so i will also be doing trials with him. I have done a load of research and have chosen a breeder who insists that the dog goes back to them at any time if i cant keep him. H e is planning a litter around June next year so i have put my name down and am willing to wait.Does this make me a bad person for not taking on another rescue i will rescue again when i have spaces as my favorite breed unfortunately is loved by puppy farmers so there will always a ready supply of them.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Haven't read all the posts yet. My opinion is if I want a particular type of puppy that is up to me. I will want it for 10 to 17 yrs depending on the breed so I would want the history of the line and tests done, rescues don't usually have that info, I also like a young dog not necessarily a pup. This is what I did with my present 3 dogs. They were from breeders. My last 4dogs in my house 2 were rescues. They were wonderful pets and I wasn't really looking for a particular breed just a nice family pet, both rescues were dumped puppies one at 10 weeks and 1 at 9 days. Health problems cost me a fortune over the years. Therefore when I was ready to have a new dog I wanted abit more peace of mind. I have just rescued a little JRT x CHI and she is going to cost abit more medical wise but she kinda stole our heart in her terrified state. Nothing wrong in my opion of someone buying from a breeder as long as they make sure they are not puppy mills or puppy farmers.....Jill


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Primary exclusive examples...
> 
> Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy now effects 1 in every 3500 live male births worldwide. Some countries have a higher incidence than others...
> 
> ...


Okay ... without the methodology it is hard to say if this is a genuine increase in incidence or another phenomena such as as improved diagnoses or increased reporting but this...



> It is a simple assumption that as some of the most common genetic anomolies are on the increase then they all are ...


...would be presumptious, especially when relying on Cytic Fibrosis for your argument, as recessives which confer a heterozygous advantage (which CF may well have) will have a markedly different rate of incidence.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think it is almost impossible to stop pedigree breeders breeding dogs for show, or to keep a pup or to develop a breed.
It is also seems impossible to stop puppy farmers breeding dogs for money or pet owners breeding just because they can.

Rescues are having a hard time of it, the credit crunch is here and will be for many years to come, so the problem is with us for quite while.

I would just urge any person out there who is thinking of breeding their dog whether pure bred or cross bred to think again and to decide whether it really needs to be done. Is it wise to breed Bella again, is she capable of ever producing a show stopper? Is Hector really good enough to be a stud dog?

Is Minxie, really better to enjoy her life as a nice pet instead of undergoing the not inconsiderable risks of motherhood? Would it be better to say no to the next door neighbour who wants to use your dog "to make puppies" with their bitch.

Puppies in a matter of months turn into dogs so really when you have a dog for hopefully 15+ years, is this puppy-hood that many crave really that necessary? Puppies are really, really hard work and just because they have been with you "forever" doesn't guarantee that they will be perfect temperamentally either and get on with kids or other dogs or cats. That is a myth, it all depends on the breed, the breeding and how they are treated and trained.

Rescue organisations come in many shapes and sizes, if you want a particular breed then there is always breed rescue. If you truly want to rescue a dog then there is always a way to do it. I just feel for many it is just "easy" to get a dog from the free-ads, pet shops and dodgy dealers. Many just really do not care where that puppy comes from, as long as they can buy it cheap, with no real hassle.

BYB and irresponsible types can only stay in business if they have a market and it is up to true animal lovers and potential pet owners to say no.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Okay ... without the methodology it is hard to say if this is a genuine increase in incidence or another phenomena such as as improved diagnoses or increased reporting but this...


there can be no improved diagnosis for DMD you either have it or you dont, if you have it - you DIE! its fairly easy to diagnose even before genetic testing was involved.

CF is a heterozygous recessive - can you point me to some information about the "advantage your referring to? If you are referring to the cholera theory i believe it was disproven in humans, and only proved correct in the roden studies. If it is regards to the tuberculosis theory i would be instersted in reading any fully human model studies where this was proven correct - i am under the impression that this is just theory?

Perhaps you could give me some evidence as to the "phenomena" you are stating, and the evidence as to why my argument would be incorrect?


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else get mad??????????????????? :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:
> 
> How the hell can people keep buying puppys and breeders keep breeding when we have such a terrrible rescue crisis?
> 
> ...


Not read the whole of this thread so sorry!

If all dogs -whether pedigree or crossbreed - were bred and bought from Responsible and Ethical Breeders then you would not have the rescue crisis.

I know a breeder whom today went and got a dog that she bred 8 years ago - the owner had suddenly died and no one else could take the dog. She will now keep that dog for the rest of its life.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I have rescued once well it wasnt from a rescue centre but from someone in a puppy farming ring we think, it went very bad that has not put me off going to rescue as i know not all rescues of any sort always turn out bad.

T.b.h it is getting to the point that some could feel guilty for buying a pedigree dog from a breeder rather than rescue and that isnt fair my last 3 dogs are all pedigree from a breeders because i wanted a puppy so many people bang on about if getting a puppy see the mother first both parents if possible then we get the flack for doing this and not going into a rescue centre and see a puppy and adopt. Everyone to their own i do feel for all these dogs in rescue i have fund raised for our local one but i wanted a pedigree puppy of a certain breed and wanted to get it right after what happened to us before.


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Great to hear! You will be in a good place as well, because if I remember correctly, it has not all been plain sailing. It was you who was struggling with the lead walking wasn't it?


Yes, we had quite a few problems with Bailey, but he's soo much better now, though still a little trouble with lead walking, but we're getting there 
x


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> there can be no improved diagnosis for DMD you either have it or you dont, if you have it - you DIE! its fairly easy to diagnose even before genetic testing was involved.


Misdiagnosoes can occur and collection data of mortality statistics can vary in reliability or other influences can skew results. I am not saying that any of these apply to the case in point because I haven't seen the data for your claim.



> If you are referring to the cholera theory i believe it was disproven in humans, and only proved correct in the roden studies.


I am not aware that is was disproved. I am aware that it has not been confirmed. That's not the same thing.



> If it is regards to the tuberculosis theory i would be instersted in reading any fully human model studies where this was proven correct - i am under the impression that this is just theory?


TB resistance has been hypothesised as have other heterozygous advantages. If these are correct (and if you re-read my post you will note that I did not say that they were) then your use of this condition as representative of all recessive disease would be misplaced.

Perhaps you could explain a mechanism why recessive conditions should become more prevalent with increasing diversity?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Misdiagnosoes can occur and collection data of mortality statistics can vary in reliability or other influences can skew results. I am not saying that any of these apply to the case in point because I haven't seen the data for your claim.
> 
> I am not aware that is was disproved. I am aware that it has not been confirmed. That's not the same thing.
> 
> ...


I do not know why, i can only say that in the human model with certain diseased then it is the case.

The cholera had been disproved, a study was completed in humans which found no difference in those who did not carry the gene. The only time it was theorised was in a study on mice.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> The cholera had been disproved, a study was completed in humans which found no difference in those who did not carry the gene.


Two studies have been conducted into the cholera resistance hypothesis (Cuthbert et l 1996; Hogenauer et al 2000) and while neither study confirmed the hypothesis nor did they claim to have disproved it. One study even suggested other mechanisms by which resistance might be achieved that fell outside the study's parameters.

However we are rather leaving canine health behind us so lets return and I will refer you to the increase in afflictions of autosomal recessive conditions within closed, gene pools such as the elevated prevalence of four to eight disorders per breed found by Brooks and Sagan 2001 or the prevalence of afflictions such as Collie Eye Anomaly in breeds like the Lancashire Heeler.

If your position is that increased diversity counter-intuitively leads to an increase in such conditions that I ask why we do not see similar, or worse, levels of affliction in crossbreeds?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Two studies have been conducted into the cholera resistance hypothesis (Cuthbert et l 1996; Hogenauer et al 2000) and while neither study confirmed the hypothesis nor did they claim to have disproved it. One study even suggested other mechanisms by which resistance might be achieved that fell outside the study's parameters.
> 
> However we are rather leaving canine health behind us so lets return and I will refer you to the increase in afflictions of autosomal recessive conditions within closed, gene pools such as the elevated prevalence of four to eight disorders per breed found by Brooks and Sagan 2001 or the prevalence of afflictions such as Collie Eye Anomaly in breeds like the Lancashire Heeler.
> 
> If your position is that increased diversity counter-intuitively leads to an increase in such conditions that I ask why we do not see similar, or worse, levels of affliction in crossbreeds?


I maintain that we do see simliar levels of afflictions in crossbreeds, having worked in the veterinary field and been involed with rescue for some years. We just see a more varied range of afflictions reflecting their more varied backgrounds.


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

I think it is ridiculously hard to get a rescue. My friend was refused as the farm it was moving to 'didn't have an adequate fencing boundary.' The garden is fenced 6ft, but because the dog would be running on the farm (which is way off the road) it wasn't allowed to go there because the FARM was't fenced off. What do they want...a prison camp?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> In the future, I want a border collie to do agility with, I can't do that with a rescue, not get to the highest level and teach it from scratch.


My first dog was a rescue that I got aged 18 months, doing agility now in grade 6. Many in our club are rescues, one has just got into grade 6 after competing for only about a year, another club rescue made it to Crufts, so it can be done (have a look at the Dog Agility Rescue League website, there are dogs there with the title 'Agility Champion'). I've just got a puppy after looking for about 2 years in rescues, quite a few possibles but when I rang up about them I was always just too late and someone else had got the dog. I'm not getting any younger! I also think it will be easier to get my current dog to take to a puppy. 
Most of the dogs I saw in rescue centres were large breeds, males, staffies, older dogs, dogs that couldn't live with another dog or other problems that could make my current dog's life a misery. I too wanted a dog to do agility with, and for me a puppy was the right choice I think - even though it's damned hard work and I feel disinclined to do it again!


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Isn't there one of the top agility handlers that only runs rescue border collies or am I thinking of something else? You can easily find a good bc in a rescue that can do agility


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> The police run their own breeding programmes. I am sure that other agencies or organisation do the same.
> 
> I'm sure some rescue dogs are used, but the majority are bred. Most rescue dogs are not cut out for this sort of work.


Not all dogs bred for police work etc make the grade. What do you think happens to those that don't? They end up in rescue of course!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

lol. can't quite see the Met dumping a load of dogs at the gates to Battersea Dogs Home! 

There will be failures, just like with anything. But I happen to know that the "failed" police dogs are sought after pets. The training they received make them excellent dogs and I have it on good authority that there is a waiting list for these "failures".

I think the rescue crisis goes far deeper than "failed" working dogs


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> lol. can't quite see the Met dumping a load of dogs at the gates to Battersea Dogs Home!
> 
> There will be failures, just like with anything. But I happen to know that the "failed" police dogs are sought after pets. The training they received make them excellent dogs and I have it on good authority that there is a waiting list for these "failures".
> 
> I think the rescue crisis goes far deeper than "failed" working dogs


Of course it does. 
What you 'happen to know' isn't the whole story, or how could have my friend got a failed police sniffer dog (border collie) from the Border Collie Trust? That one obviously didn't get onto a waiting list.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I can't speak for every failed dog. It is quite possible that it was rehomed from the police and then that person, rather than lose face, gave it to the rescue centre.

Can you honestly see that happening? Can you imagine if that was the case and what the press would do? They love to slate the police. You can see the headlines now

"Police dump failed dogs on our over full rescue centres!

Can't quite see it happening.......

Interesting that you pick up such a small point when there are far, far bigger reasons why dogs are in rescue ....


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Quote:I am fed up with people who don't give a s**t and just do what they want!
Why shouldnt people do what they want? its a free world,(talking about buying pups here not breeding) obviously we all want whats best for dogs but you arent ever going to stop breeders, all my dogs that werent bred by me were from breeders and all have lived to 14yrs plus, saying that I will probably rescue in the future, and yes I do know about rescue dogs I used to work for Lab rescue


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Here's what Assistant Chief Constable Nigel Yeo thinks of Police dogs....

_"A police dog is not a pet, it is a piece of equipment. If we had a car that did not work or had faulty brakes then we would get rid of it."_

...nice chap... evening all !


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## charmedlassie88 (Sep 21, 2009)

People should have the right to choose without being ambushed by "pro-resucers"
Yes, there are many many dogs needing a home but sometimes people want a purebred dog. They want a puppy that is theirs, has always been theirs and will grow up thiers. 
They will know its history, its health and its actual age.
Won't have to deal with the training issues many rescue dogs have (all though, I know, some don't) or any health issues. 

My dog jess is a rescue and my dog before that Bonnie was also a rescue, two fantastic dogs (Bonnie is no longer with us ) who did have issues that we ironed out. 

This time though I wanted a purebred dog from 8 weeks, just for myself and shih tzu was my choice of breed. So I choose to go to a repudable breeder for the first time ever. 
Why should I feel guilty? Because it was selfish of me?

Well rescuing isn't selfless either you know. YOU wanted a dog, YOU feel good that YOU rescued a dog. It makes YOU feel good that YOU could give a dog its forever home. 

This forum should be a place to talk about ones dog without being judged or feel superior just because one has a dog that is a rescue. 


Its pet shop puppy buyers that should be judged! :cursing:


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Here's what Assistant Chief Constable Nigel Yeo thinks of Police dogs....
> 
> _"A police dog is not a pet, it is a piece of equipment. If we had a car that did not work or had faulty brakes then we would get rid of it."_
> 
> ...nice chap... evening all !


Suppose its like the guide dogs, if they dont turn out they couldnt give a blind person a dog that cant do the job


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Elmo, that's not a nice way for him to put it is it. He is just not nice..Jill


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Here's another question just to fan the flames!!

Who thinks that perhaps rescues themselves might be adding to the rescue crisis??? If there werent soooooooooooooooooooo many people willing to pick up other peoples **** then perhaps people might just think twice about getting rid of a dog if there was no-where to offload said dog when it suddenly doesnt fit into their colour scheme, with the new baby, with the house move or the other load of shite reasons people dump dogs every day?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Retired police dogs to get pensions

By Brian Farmer, Press Association

Wednesday, 5 August 2009

A police force is to pay pensions to police dogs who have had their day.

Officials in Cambridgeshire say the cost of retired animals' food and medical care should come from the public purse.

Police dogs normally live with their handlers when they are no longer deemed fit for duty and handlers have paid for their keep.

But a spokesman said bosses had decided it was unfair to expect handlers to pick up the tab - and right to recognise the public service dogs had provided.

Sources said bills for retired dogs would run into hundreds of pounds.

"Previously when a dog retired, the officer would sign a disclaimer taking full responsibility for the dog's actions and medical care," said the spokesman.

"However, they serve us for seven or eight years as good police dogs and often only have two years of retirement on average so it's only right to provide for them during this time. So we put together a package for the dogs."

He added: "The pension covers the retired dog's food, vaccinations and worming, vet bills as well as complementary therapy."


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I've often come across people who think that rescuing is only a good idea if they ram it down everyone elses throats and brag and bleat about how marvellous they are cos they've got rescues - then there are those that quietly get on with things, perhaps cant give a home to a dog but donate food, money and time to helping without a word to anyone - now those are the rescuers that I really admire


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Here's another question just to fan the flames!!
> 
> Who thinks that perhaps rescues themselves might be adding to the rescue crisis??? If there werent soooooooooooooooooooo many people willing to pick up other peoples **** then perhaps people might just think twice about getting rid of a dog if there was no-where to offload said dog when it suddenly doesnt fit into their colour scheme, with the new baby, with the house move or the other load of shite reasons people dump dogs every day?


I can see what you're saying. Some people might think "well it doesn't matter if we're not suited to having a dog... we can try it out for a bit and the take it to the rescue if it doesn't work out".

... only problem is that without rescues,such "people" may consider the alternative to be be a bin bag and a canal?


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## arriba (Oct 4, 2009)

considering there are so many dogs in rescue centres,and so many put to sleep,i think as many people as possible should look at getting a dog from a charity,rather than buying one from a breeder.

alot of people breeding dogs, do so purely to make money.it makes me sick really.
also if a rescue centre doesn't think you are suitable for a dog, then you probably are not.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm sure that goes on a heck of alot more than we think already - as does puppy culling - I bet we dont know the half of it


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

How about if every first time owner first tried fostering to see if a dog really fits into there everyday life? Then you are helping rescue out with fostering and you can see if you have time to actually give a permanent member of your family the time it deserves....Jill


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Why shouldnt people do what they want? its a free world,


It is a free world, true.

However as animal lovers you would think that more people would actually be concerned about dogs being put down in rescue everyday, many of them lovely friendly dogs who are there through no fault of their own.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

arriba said:


> also if a rescue centre doesn't think you are suitable for a dog, then you probably are not.


So you're saying that just because someone has children this means they're not suitable to own a dog? Because that is the sole reason why many, many people are turned down by many, many rescues.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

arriba said:


> also if a rescue centre doesn't think you are suitable for a dog, then you probably are not.


Couldnt disagree more

Alot of centres wont let you have a dog if you are out for more than 4 hours a day - there are literally hundreds of people who work full time and keep dogs that are perfectly happy, healthy pets leading wonderful family lives - much better that than shut up in a run all day IMHO (obviously I'm not talking about dogs with issues SA etc - but many an oldie would think they'd died and gone to heaven to have a fireside of their own)

There's a dog for every situation and any rescue worth it's salt should be well able to fit the right home to the right dog - not dismiss someone cos they dont meet a set criteria


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Well we have a bit of both rescued and bought from breeders.
Best of both worlds i say.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I maintain that we do see simliar levels of afflictions in crossbreeds, having worked in the veterinary field and been involed with rescue for some years. We just see a more varied range of afflictions reflecting their more varied backgrounds.


In the cases in afflictions caused by deleterious recessive alleles we will only see the condition expressed when an individual inherits two copies of the same allele, one from each parent. It is pretty obvious that the probability of doing so (the incidence rate) will be higher within any small, closed gene pool that contains the allele. This intuitive position is confirmed by dozens of studies all of which have confirmed the same phenomena and that's just in canines. If we look at a broader picture we have hundreds of studies to draw upon which all show that the higher the coefficient of inbreeding the higher the incidence of deleterious recessive conditions.

In addition to this we have yet more studies that show lack of diversity in the MHC will adversely affect the immune system and so leave individuals at increased risk of infectious (non-inheritable) conditions.

Still further there exist still more studies that show crossbreeds enjoy, on average, greater longevity than their purebred cousins.

If you are countering this mountain of evidence and accepted scientific wisdom then it requires, I feel, something equally weighty. Some quality scientific study, some peer-reviewed papers or something. Your anecdotal evidence is interesting but, I'm sure you'll agree, not sufficient on which to base a position with any certainty. Even more so when it finds itself standing, alone, in contradiction with findings of so much research.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

arriba said:


> considering there are so many dogs in rescue centres,and so many put to sleep,i think as many people as possible should look at getting a dog from a charity,rather than buying one from a breeder.
> 
> alot of people breeding dogs, do so purely to make money.it makes me sick really.
> also if a rescue centre doesn't think you are suitable for a dog, then you probably are not.


In respect to the last sentence I don't think thats always ture. A friend of mine was turned down cause she didn't have a fenced yard. Her previous dog passed away a yr ago at 16 yrs old of heart failure which they had been treating everyday for 5 yrs the dog had gone deaf and blind during its last 2 yrs and they gave her a fantastic life...Jill


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> I think it is ridiculously hard to get a rescue. My friend was refused ...


By how many rescues? Must be a lot if it is "ridiculously hard".


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Colsy said:


> Well we have a bit of both rescued and bought from breeders.
> Best of both worlds i say.


Ditto me - one breeder bought, one rescue and one rehome - right mixed bag I've got


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

I have a mixed bag - rescued and bought pets, a rescued but free OH and not to mention a mixed bag of kids!

We all live in harmony - and i dont need anyone to 'preach' to me what I can and cannot do!


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Ditto me - one breeder bought, one rescue and one rehome - right mixed bag I've got


Me too.
But there great aren't they.


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## arriba (Oct 4, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> So you're saying that just because someone has children this means they're not suitable to own a dog? Because that is the sole reason why many, many people are turned down by many, many rescues.


that isn't what i said. you quoted what i did say.

but as you raised it,having kids didn't stop me getting a rescue dog from a major charity


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I am one of those people who any rescue will not home to. I have 1 dog, 4 cats, small animals and a 3yr old daughter.
> 
> But i won't give up, i am now thinking of getting a retired Greyhound but again that is going to be a struggle.


I've found greyhound rehoming groups pretty flexible and most would probably home to you. You may have to wait slightly longer for a cat trainable greyhound, although i think the Jersey branches source the hounds to match the adopter from mainland branches so maybe not.

I don't have a problem if people go to responsible breeders to get there pups, but so many people just look in the freeads and go for the cheaper/easier option which are often not the best places to buy from and perhaps these breeders are not so choosy about who they sell to so they may end up in unsuitable homes.

I get annoyed when people seem assume all rescue dogs will have issues and can't possibly home one as they have kids/cats etc or just assume that they won't meet the criteria  I'll probably get some more retired greyhounds or other rescue dog in future, i prefer adult dogs and i also like a rescue to help me find the right dog for me


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

2Hounds said:


> I've found greyhound rehoming groups pretty flexible and most would probably home to you. You may have to wait slightly longer for a cat trainable greyhound, although i think the Jersey branches source the hounds to match the adopter from mainland branches so maybe not.
> 
> I don't have a problem if people go to responsible breeders to get there pups, but so many people just look in the freeads and go for the cheaper/easier option which are often not the best places to buy from and perhaps these breeders are not so choosy about who they sell to so they may end up in unsuitable homes.
> 
> I get annoyed when people seem assume all rescues will have issues and can't possibly home one as they have kids/cats etc or just assume that they won't meet the criteria  I'll probably get some more retired greyhounds or other rescue dog in future, i prefer adult dogs and i also like a rescue to help me find the right dog for me


I think rehoming a greyhound is so rewarding! They are probably one of the most 'missunderstood' dogs there are! many think that they need endless exercise when in fact they are the 'couch potatoes' of the canine world.
DT


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

arriba said:


> also if a rescue centre doesn't think you are suitable for a dog, then you probably are not.


i have to disagree on this one as well. when i was 19 i got a rescue GSD for my birthday and as my little brother was 10 they were more than happy to let me have the dog however now 10 years later most rescues will not allow me to have a dog at all. my personal preferences are GSDs collies newfies etc. i have lived with dogs all my life and i have a huge enclosed back garden also am home all day but.. i have 2 children aged 4 and 8 and 4 cats AND i volunteer with a cat rescue so they will not let me rehome a dog. oh and since i was refused by the rescues for a dog i regularly look after my uncles old collie as he has started working away a lot and my uncle has remarked at how happy and healthy the old dog looks when he is collected


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> However when I get my next dog I want it to be from a breeder mostly because the two breeds we're considering are pretty rare and the breed rescues probably have insanely long waiting lists. We also want a dog we can show (yes I know we're so selfish for doing this)


You are not being selfish - don't let those whose opinions differ make you feel as though you are.



SEVEN_PETS said:


> I think it's awful on a pet forum that people are being criticized for going to a breeder. It's people's choices, we shouldn't feel like we are being criticized, as long as they go to a reputable breeder.


I agree - all the angst about rescue dogs should be directed to the real cause of the problem - puppy farmers and byb. Stop buying from them, put them out of business, and numbers of dogs in rescue centres will fall dramatically. That's a much better solution than railing at people who choose to buy from reputable breeders.



charmedlassie88 said:


> People should have the right to choose without being ambushed by "pro-resucers"
> Yes, there are many many dogs needing a home but sometimes people want a purebred dog. They want a puppy that is theirs, has always been theirs and will grow up thiers.
> They will know its history, its health and its actual age.
> Won't have to deal with the training issues many rescue dogs have (all though, I know, some don't) or any health issues.
> ...


Excellent post - toally agree.



Jo P said:


> I've often come across people who think that rescuing is only a good idea if they ram it down everyone elses throats and brag and bleat about how marvellous they are cos they've got rescues - then there are those that quietly get on with things, perhaps cant give a home to a dog but donate food, money and time to helping without a word to anyone - now those are the rescuers that I really admire


Another excellent post - and so true.


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

i also want to add that if you are going to rehome a dog it should be because you are totally in love with that dog whether its from a breeder or a rescue. if i walked into a rescue centre and all they had were little yorkies or other small dogs i would walk away as that dog would not get the love it deserves from me. am i doing the wrong thing leaving a dog in a rescue centre because i am not in love with it no because it will have the chance to find an owner that will adore it. unfortunately rescue centres seem to have the same few breeds in abundance and some people dont just love that kind of dog


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

ellie8024 said:


> i also want to add that if you are going to rehome a dog it should be because you are totally in love with that dog whether its from a breeder or a rescue. if i walked into a rescue centre and all they had were little yorkies or other small dogs i would walk away as that dog would not get the love it deserves from me. am i doing the wrong thing leaving a dog in a rescue centre because i am not in love with it no because it will have the chance to find an owner that will adore it. unfortunately rescue centres seem to have the same few breeds in abundance and some people dont just love that kind of dog


More or less what I was trying to say earlier  I know what breed is for me and I put my all into that breed so it's not fair on another breed having a home with me when my all won't go into it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Hmm, very rare to get a chihuahua in rescue!!TBH Im glad I bought my dogs from pups. As my first ever dogs I got to choose what I wanted, got small enuf dogs that wont scare my very timid cats too much, and broke my dog hating friend in gently so she now looks forward to dog sitting!!
I would worry that without experience I could be a bad owner for a rescue dog. I feel that when I get my next dog (when my scaredy cats have gone to the bridge!) I will definitely feel able to love and care for a rescue dog properly.
Just my personal opinion. I dont feel like a bad person coz I bought my dogs, nor do I love them less or feel they arent as worthy.
Surely if people would like to add a rescue to their pack that is a good thing?


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

can get a rescue dog with anyone 

No real garden, cats and young children big no no with most rescues! 

zeb was brought because we wanted a puppy to grow up with our children and cats, we did look in and ask about resuces but everytime got a told no they would even let us get a cat because fo where we live 

bear i guess was a adoption case he could no longer be kept, we offered him a home and this is his last home 

i dont think anyone should be made to feel guilty for buying a pup from a breeder, rescues dotn always fit what people need or want. 

Theres millions of children in care does that mean people shouldnt have thier own children? no because as a human being its down to you what you do, some people wont agree but hay hoe thats life! 

People who rescue are brilliant theres no doubt about it


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

I dont believe in breeders. 

My pup was dumped at my doorstep at a very young age! He wasnt fully weaned! If this wasnt a breeder trying to get rid of an unwanted litter then it must have been santa clause.

I now have two dogs, the other is an RSPCA rescue. It took me months to find my perfect dog. When people say they don't have the correct dogs that they are after I think that is pure laziness and impatience.

I have seen many Chihuaha's in rescues but because there are alot of people wanting one they usually put you on a reserve list until one arrives. You need to be in close contact with a rescue centre in order to find your perfect dog. Yes it may take a while, but there is nothing better then finally getting the dog you have always dreamed about after waiting for him/her to arrive.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> I dont believe in breeders.
> 
> My pup was dumped at my doorstep at a very young age! He wasnt fully weaned! If this wasnt a breeder trying to get rid of an unwanted litter then it must have been santa clause.
> 
> ...


I dont think all breeders are the same that go round dumping dogs


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> I dont believe in breeders.
> 
> My pup was dumped at my doorstep at a very young age! He wasnt fully weaned! If this wasnt a breeder trying to get rid of an unwanted litter then it must have been santa clause.


this obviously wasn't a reputable breeder. what's wrong with a reputable breeder?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

My money-my choice


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> My money-my choice


spot on !!!!!!


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Its just my opinion, I have seen many reputable breeders still being cruel to their animals.

If you know this person well then that is your choice to get a pup from them. As long as you know the bitch isnt being bred every season and that all the pups have turned out fine. But it is your choice.

I wouldnt personally go with any breeder, reputation isn't everything and I know what its like to wait for that specially someone.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Its just my opinion, I have seen many reputable breeders still being cruel to their animals.
> 
> If you know this person well then that is your choice to get a pup from them. As long as you know the bitch isnt being bred every season and that all the pups have turned out fine. But it is your choice.
> 
> I wouldnt personally go with any breeder, reputation isn't everything and I know what its like to wait for that specially someone.


there are some good breeders around that you make friends with for life. you shouldn't tar all breeders with the same brush.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Like I said it is just my opinion.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Well I have not read all the replies, but my take on things is, I am in a weird postion some may say because I own pedigrees, I have bred, and I work full time for a large rescue, I wanted a particular breed so I researched my breeders and lines and thats the way I went and I am 100% happy with my decision, because I feel strongly about dogs going into rescue this dictated on how I bred, my ethics, and my strict contract with my pups owners who I am in regular cotact with, I have bred two litters in the 9 years of owning my breed and will only breed if I want another. the rescue dogs in my experience are on the whole x breeds, and some "pedigrees" who have gotten themselves in the rescue because of IMO irresponsible owners, who shouldnt have dogs, but that then goes back to the breeders who allow them to have their pups, if those breeders were more diligent in the homing of their pups or didnt breed their dogs in the first place many of the dogs in rescue wouldnt be there, then again you have the puppy farmers that do a great job of keeping rescues in business, they just dont give a damn where their pups go so long as they have a good turnover, these dog more often than not have health/mental issues which make them hard for their owners to keep and so they too end up in the rescue, its all about education, if people were educated and know that they should buy responsibly, if people are educated to now that having a dog is a huge committment, if people are educated about the breeding of dogs and their placement, then the place would be a happy place. people have their own reason for getting from a rescue or a breeder, they are entitled to do this IMO, so long as they educate themselves on the best rout for them, and choose wisely.

Mo


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Arnie came to us from a breeder, the reason - I have always wanted a spaniel, when I stopped working and with being at home all day we sought out a breeder and waited (Istopped working 5 yrs ago). We always said we'd have two dogs, once Arnie was 8mths and settled we started to look around the rescues. It wasnt a case of only wanting another spaniel, just of wanting the right dog to fit in with Arnie. We actually turned down a springer and a springer cross before Alf came to us as a rescue. If I had not had my heart set on a spaniel in the first instance then we would have gone straight to the rescue route and wouldnt have bothered with going to a breeder.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Its just my opinion, I have seen many reputable breeders still being cruel to their animals.
> 
> If you know this person well then that is your choice to get a pup from them. As long as you know the bitch isnt being bred every season and that all the pups have turned out fine. But it is your choice.
> 
> I wouldnt personally go with any breeder, reputation isn't everything and I know what its like to wait for that specially someone.


Then they are NOT reputable.

Mo


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Like Mo (above) we are in what some may call a contradictory position. All our dogs are pedigrees which we both show and work. We are also occasional breeders. However, we also run the biggest and busiest Siberian Husky welfare organisation in the UK and, since the organisation was founded in February 2007, we have rescued and rehomed 350+ unwanted Siberian Huskies. In other words we spend most of our time clearing up other peoples' messes.
Of those 350, only 3 (ie less than 1%) have come from what we would regard as reputable breeders. The rest were bred by puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders, and were, either sold to unsuitable owners, or were rehomed due to changes in the owners' financial or social circumstances.

The statistics are clear in our breed. Good quality, healthy dogs bred by ethical breeders from health/work and show tested parents are much less likely to come into rescue than those bred by puppy farmers/BYBs/"Pet" breeders.

If the ethical breeders stopped breeding, then the only dogs available would be the poor quality, mass-produced, less healthy dogs and the standard of the breed would fall dramatically.

So, if someone wants a dog to show or to work, and is prepared to put the time and effort into researching the breed and sussing out the minefield that is dog breeding, then there is no problem with buying a pup from a good, ethical breeder.
If you want a pet and are not interested in showing or competitive working, a rescue is an ideal solution. The fact that the rescues may not be "perfect" examples of the breed is less important than the fact that, with the right knowledge and handling, they can make the most wonderful and loving companions.

I would also echo Mo's last post. If a breeder is cruel to their dogs, they are not reputable and certainly not ethical and they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole!!!

Mick


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Its just my opinion, I have seen many reputable breeders still being cruel to their animals.
> 
> If you know this person well then that is your choice to get a pup from them. As long as you know the bitch isnt being bred every season and that all the pups have turned out fine. But it is your choice.
> 
> I wouldnt personally go with any breeder, reputation isn't everything and I know what its like to wait for that specially someone.


I know of many a rescue dog that's been returned to rescue in more of a state than it was sent out in!!!!!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

same here unfortunately.

Mo


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

raindog said:


> If you want a pet and are not interested in showing or competitive working, a rescue is an ideal solution. The fact that the rescues may not be "perfect" examples of the breed is less important than the fact that, with the right knowledge and handling, they can make the most wonderful and loving companions.


I agree.
I think many people make the excuse that it is impossible to get a certain breed of dog out of rescue and have quoted Spaniels, Collies, Labradors, Poodles, so they have just got to find a pup. I would have thought that these dogs are quite easy to get from rescue with a little bit of effort. 
However I am willing to accept that the "Chim Chim Cherree" from Outer Mongolia is going to be a difficult dog to source, but Collies, Labs, Poodles and Spaniels are some of the commonest breeds in the country. I have a friend who got a pure bred Cocker Spaniel from rescue and another has now got a Fox Red Lab, again from rescue.

I think many see rescue as a load of trouble and that dogs may take a while to settle in and are unwilling to put the effort in. 
However puppies take a long time to settle in - at least a year, peeing, pooping, whining, demanding, destructive, biting and often need training from scratch. 
I doubt whether many rescue dogs would in fact be as much trouble as that.
Many rescue dogs come to rescue through no fault of there own and with the credit crunch, a lot end up in rescue because of the financial problems of their owners.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I agree.
> I think many people make the excuse that it is impossible to get a certain breed of dog out of rescue and have quoted Spaniels, Collies, Labradors, Poodles, so they have just got to find a pup. I would have thought that these dogs are quite easy to get from rescue with a little bit of effort.
> However I am willing to accept that the "Chim Chim Cherree" from Outer Mongolia is going to be a difficult dog to source, but Collies, Labs, Poodles and Spaniels are some of the commonest breeds in the country. I have a friend who got a pure bred Cocker Spaniel from rescue and another has now got a Fox Red Lab, again from rescue.
> 
> ...


Poodles, common? I found them far from common when trying to find a stanard poodle breeder. I would have to of went to England so I thought I would look for a mini breeder instead and found one 30 mins from me. Even people I know that show say how rare it is to see a poodle out and about. Maybe that's just up here in Scotland. Yes there is a poodle rescue but like I said you can't show them. I'd prefer to teach a pup from scratch than take on a poodle with problems. One day I will but it won't be for awhile.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Do you know I dont think I have ever seen a poodle in our rescue?

Mo


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Do you see many cavaliers?

I got my st bernard before she got to the rescue center so she was free


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

yes cav's do come in sadly, although not as often as STB's.

mo


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

moboyd said:


> yes cav's do come in sadly, although not as often as STB's.
> 
> mo


got a staffie as well but im full have no more room for dogs


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

If anyone sees a Golden Retriever in rescue - give me a shout because I am looking for one!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Have your tried the golden retreiver rescue in your area?

mo


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Many Tears get loads of ex breeding Cavs in for anyone looking for one - they also get alot of Labs


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

I have noticed alot of people saying that you can't show a rescue dog. I can personally disagree with that. My dogs have won many shows. I have been to about 30 shows and have 6 Rosettes and 12 Trophys. All it takes is patience and time to find the perfect breed for you and your lifestyle.


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

Unfortunatley cavs come into rescue far to often they are one of the most popular breeds that the puppy farmers have. Lizzies Barn who i foster for have 3 in at the moment only 1 was bred from but we usually have x puppy farm bitches thats why i have 7cavs and a cavx


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> I have noticed alot of people saying that you can't show a rescue dog. I can personally disagree with that. My dogs have won many shows. I have been to about 30 shows and have 6 Rosettes and 12 Trophys. All it takes is patience and time to find the perfect breed for you and your lifestyle.


I beleive and I will stand corrected you can show rescues at fun dog shows, but not at a show that is under the Kennel club ruling?, as far as I am aware the dogs Kennel club name has to be on the application form? and you dont normally get the KC paperwork with a rescue.

Mo


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

moboyd said:


> I beleive and I will stand corrected you can show rescues at fun dog shows, but not at a show that is under the Kennel club ruling?, as far as I am aware the dogs Kennel club name has to be on the application form? and you dont normally get the KC paperwork with a rescue.
> 
> Mo


I think you can show at companion shows if you have a rescue dog. Not sure if you can enter Utility etc because that's judged the way normal shows are so the dogs might not be allowed neutered.


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## sophiew (Sep 20, 2009)

You can show a non KC registered 'pedigree' at companion shows in the pedigree classes (Terrier, Gundog etc) but you can't show a non-KC registered pedigree in open, championship shows etc. 

You can show rescue / cross breed dogs at companion shows and lurcher / terrier shows in other classes

Sophie
x


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks for that I have never really looked into it because I never showed any rescues, good to know.

Mo


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## Ameliexx (Sep 25, 2009)

I haven't read this entire thread but have to say that it feels like its being implied that anyone who gets a dog from a breeder is selfish. I considered a recuse dog but our family have requirements and felt that we would never get what we want through a rescue after continually being contacted about dogs the rescue considered "suitable for us" but us having doubts about. I have two young children so wanted a dog that's good with children.I wasn't happy just to be told that "the lady fostering it has a nine year old grandaughter that visits", that to me does not mean that the dog would be suitable for living with two young children based on a dog having been ok with a nine year old a couple of times. I did not want a stray as I felt that not knowing its background could mean I'm putting the children at risk.(it could have been abandoned after attacking someone?)As shallow as it sounds we wanted a dog that we actually like the look of .Go ahead and call me for that but how many of us date someone we hate the appearance of or buy a coat we hate the colour of? aesthetics come into it don't they? . I had to consider the size of our house, what I was able to offer in terms of exercise .the fact that we regularly travel by car and visit family so needed a dog that would travel well and that would be ok in stopping in a different environment. Also we wanted a dog that fits in with things we enjoy doing as a family like walk around the market , car boot sales etc. We went to see one dog who we were told was "perfect" for us, took him on a walk and he went crazy at other dogs and pulled my shoulder leaving me in pain for a week . I told the lady at the recuse who said "he lives with another dog so we thought he was fine with dogs" .After much debating my husband and I decided that with our two children and our needs as a family we were better getting a puppy, training him ourselves , getting him used to the things we do as a family, places we visit etc and choosing a breed we like the qualities off . Selfish? well yes maybe but not everything is black and white


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Ameliexx said:


> I haven't read this entire thread but have to say that it feels like its being implied that anyone who gets a dog from a breeder is selfish. I considered a recuse dog but our family have requirements and felt that we would never get what we want through a rescue after continually being contacted about dogs the rescue considered "suitable for us" but us having doubts about. I have two young children so wanted a dog that's good with children.I wasn't happy just to be told that "the lady fostering it has a nine year old grandaughter that visits", that to me does not mean that the dog would be suitable for living with two young children based on a dog having been ok with a nine year old a couple of times. I did not want a stray as I felt that not knowing its background could mean I'm putting the children at risk.(it could have been abandoned after attacking someone?)As shallow as it sounds we wanted a dog that we actually like the look of .Go ahead and call me for that but how many of us date someone we hate the appearance of or buy a coat we hate the colour of? aesthetics come into it don't they? . I had to consider the size of our house, what I was able to offer in terms of exercise .the fact that we regularly travel by car and visit family so needed a dog that would travel well and that would be ok in stopping in a different environment. Also we wanted a dog that fits in with things we enjoy doing as a family like walk around the market , car boot sales etc. We went to see one dog who we were told was "perfect" for us, took him on a walk and he went crazy at other dogs and pulled my shoulder leaving me in pain for a week . I told the lady at the recuse who said "he lives with another dog so we thought he was fine with dogs" .After much debating my husband and I decided that with our two children and our needs as a family we were better getting a puppy, training him ourselves , getting him used to the things we do as a family, places we visit etc and choosing a breed we like the qualities off . Selfish? well yes maybe but not everything is black and white


exactly. it's not selfish at all.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Im not saying it is selfish to buy a dog from a breeder. You obviously put alot of time and effort into looking into a rescue. I just dont understand people that don't even consider a rescue. Rescues often have puppys that need rehoming, you never mentioned whether you tried a rescued pup?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Im not saying it is selfish to buy a dog from a breeder. You obviously put alot of time and effort into looking into a rescue. I just dont understand people that don't even consider a rescue. Rescues often have puppys that need rehoming, you never mentioned whether you tried a rescued pup?


but what business is it of yours what other people decide to do? if people want to go to a rescue, fine, if people want to go to a breeder, fine. it's people's choices and is no business of anyone else where they get their animals from.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but what business is it of yours what other people decide to do? if people want to go to a rescue, fine, if people want to go to a breeder, fine. it's people's choices and is no business of anyone else where they get their animals from.


that is so well said, you have saved me a post !!!


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Im allowed to say my opinion?!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Im allowed to say my opinion?!


but you say it in a rude way ("I don't understand people" is rude) and pushing people to say if they have looked at a rescue pup.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but what business is it of yours what other people decide to do? if people want to go to a rescue, fine, if people want to go to a breeder, fine. it's people's choices and is no business of anyone else where they get their animals from.


Umm hello is this not a friendly discussion on the reason's people choose to buy rather than rescue. Relax dear if you can't respond in an adult manner then don't respond at all thanks. 

I've kept out of this interesting debate until now as it's pretty obvious to those that know me where my loyalities and passions lay but when I yet again see 1 person becoming rude and aggressive on what was a very mature and level headed conversation then I'll step in. This response is exactly why this board is quiet and dull right now, because of rude ignorant people like that one.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

JSR said:


> Umm hello is this not a friendly discussion on the reason's people choose to buy rather than rescue. Relax dear if you can't respond in an adult manner then don't respond at all thanks.
> 
> I've kept out of this interesting debate until now as it's pretty obvious to those that know me where my loyalities and passions lay but when I yet again see 1 person becoming rude and aggressive on what was a very mature and level headed conversation then I'll step in. This response is exactly why this board is quiet and dull right now, because of rude ignorant people like that one.


excuse me but rescue people seem to always be pushing and pushing people to rescue, leave them alone. god!!


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

JSR said:


> Umm hello is this not a friendly discussion on the reason's people choose to buy rather than rescue. Relax dear if you can't respond in an adult manner then don't respond at all thanks.
> 
> I've kept out of this interesting debate until now as it's pretty obvious to those that know me where my loyalities and passions lay but when I yet again see 1 person becoming rude and aggressive on what was a very mature and level headed conversation then I'll step in. This response is exactly why this board is quiet and dull right now, because of rude ignorant people like that one.


Thank you JSR. I thought the whole point of having Forums is to express your opinions. This is twice now I have been having a debate and twice been victimised for my opinion.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Thank you JSR. I thought the whole point of having Forums is to express your opinions. This is twice now I have been having a debate and twice been victimised for my opinion.


Ignore them, there appear to be some really silly people on this forum right now who just seem determined to see everyone with any sense or anything interesting to say leave. I'm sick and fed up of seeing rude silly replies when people are trying to have an ADULT conversation. Must be school holidays or something.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

i'm fed up of people (not you Phoneix&Charlies mum) of being called selfish cos i buy from a breeder. how is that a friendly discussion, it's name calling and rude.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> excuse me but rescue people seem to always be pushing and pushing people to rescue, leave them alone. god!!


Tell you what if you think rescue people are SOOOOO pushy and rude then you get off your bum, leave your PC and come volunteer at a rescue center for a day or too, then maybe just maybe you'll understand why people are passionate and have ethics regarding rehoming dogs. NO? Too much like the real world is it?


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

the only person that is name calling is you (calling me rude)

I give up on this discussion now.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

JSR said:


> Tell you what if you think rescue people are SOOOOO pushy and rude then you get off your bum, leave your PC and come volunteer at a rescue center for a day or too, then maybe just maybe you'll understand why people are passionate and have ethics regarding rehoming dogs. NO? Too much like the real world is it?


cos i like my well-bred, health tested dog thanks. no need to look at rescues.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

we considered rescue, visited our local place and were not impressed with them at all or the amount of 'donation' they were demanding.
no real info about the dogs.
also we fostered from manchester dogs home and the dog we fostered gave ours kennel cough and he was quite ill.

i would never go to a rescue centre or dogs home again. no matter what they tell you, you never truly know what you will be getting.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> cos i like my well-bred, health tested dog thanks. no need to look at rescues.


So you don't feel anything for the dogs that are being PTS everyday? You don't feel that by donating a few hours of your time is something worth while doing? And you call yourself an animal lover? I presume it's just YOUR animals you love because quiet obviously you don't give a sh*t about any others? Must be lovely living in your bubble? Lets just hope it doesn't get a prick ..... or maybe it already has. :idea:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

davehyde said:


> we considered rescue, visited our local place and were not impressed with them at all or the amount of 'donation' they were demanding.
> no real info about the dogs.
> also we fostered from manchester dogs home and the dog we fostered gave ours kennel cough and he was quite ill.
> 
> i would never go to a rescue centre or dogs home again. no matter what they tell you, you never truly know what you will be getting.


yeah, at least with reputable breeders, you know what you are getting.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

JSR said:


> So you don't feel anything for the dogs that are being PTS everyday? You don't feel that by donating a few hours of your time is something worth while doing? And you call yourself an animal lover? I presume it's just YOUR animals you love because quiet obviously you don't give a sh*t about any others? Must be lovely living in your bubble? Lets just hope it doesn't get a prick ..... or maybe it already has. :idea:


i'm too busy, i work, i go to college, i can't do much more. and i already donate money to rescues, i think i do enough.

and i've tried volunteering at rescues, they didn't want any help.

and also, now who's being rude? You...


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Can we keep this thread in line with the rules thank you.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i'm too busy, i work, i go to college, i can't do much more. and i already donate money to rescues, i think i do enough.
> 
> and i've tried volunteering at rescues, they didn't want any help.
> 
> and also, now who's being rude? You...


Oh that's okay then. So busy you are spending the afternoon on line on a forum?  I'm sure the rescue you volunteered at was full to the brim with people helping out, maybe they didn't have any dogs that needed looking after? Cos 'reputable' breeders never ever dump dogs at rescues now do they?

And yes I openly admit I'm a very rude person, years of dealing with the disgusting members of this society who view animals as throw away fashion accessories and not leaving, breathing, feeling creatures. Give me my dogs anyday, they are worth 100 of you.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

It's went this far without getting locked.. Try not get it locked now


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

davehyde said:


> no matter what they tell you, you never truly know what you will be getting.


Thats half the enjoyment sometimes. When i got Oscar as a rescue as a puppy everyone thought he was a boxer cross, he soon grew into the very obvious SBT mix he is now.

I wont ever ever buy a dog again. For me it will be rescue or nothing. I dont care about health testing, or who my dogs parents and "lines" are. I dislike showing and breeding, so those things are irrellevant to me.
If any dog i own develops some illness, then so be it. They still need and deserve a good home.

I dont think because a dog is well-bred and health tested, that they are somehow superior to a rescue.

I could never justify buying a puppy. If i were refused by one rescue, then there are hundreds more out there. It boils down to how determined and passionate a person is. 
I dont care what a dog looks like, or how old it is. I know when i lose my boys and feel the time is right to get another dog, that there will be the right one out there. I hope its an oldie too, cos i bloody hate puppies.

If it had been down to the RSPCA and a private rescue, my boy would have been PTS over 10 years ago. This doesnt mean i hate all rescues and tar them with the same brush. Thats like going to one bad restaurant, and then saying they are all sh!t.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

People are passionate about rescues because they know that without encouraging people down that path a life that could have been part of a loving family is now just another body chucked in local landfill. Have a look at this website... two thirds of these dogs, one week from now will most likely be in said landfill.

CURRENT STRAY DOGS LIST

I'm all for free choice but I will never ever begrudge someone who tries, even over-zealously, to convince others that rescue is a worthwhile option because I understand where that passion comes from.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

davehyde said:


> i would never go to a rescue centre or dogs home again. no matter what they tell you, you never truly know what you will be getting.


Another sweeping (and inaccurate) generalisation.

I can point to breeders who have sold sickly pups or misrepresented the breed but I would not be so casual as to paint all breeders in such a way.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> it's people's choices and is no business of anyone else where they get their animals from.


Puppyfarms...petshops...I'm entitled to an opinion. I'd be surprised if you didn't have an opinion too.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

jenniferx said:


> People are passionate about rescues because they know that without encouraging people down that path a life that could have been part of a loving family is now just another body chucked in local landfill. Have a look at this website... two thirds of these dogs, one week from now will most likely be in said landfill.
> 
> CURRENT STRAY DOGS LIST
> 
> I'm all for free choice but I will never ever begrudge someone who tries, even over-zealously, to convince others that rescue is a worthwhile option because I understand where that passion comes from.


Thank you for posting this website. If someone looks at this website and doesn't feel any need to help these dogs then I have no time for them.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

a lot of this rescue pushing is really emotional blackmail.

yes i feel sorry for all dogs in rescue.

yes i have donated

yes i have fostered.

but it aint my fault they are full to bursting.

i chose to buy the exact dog i wanted from who i chose.

do all dogs deserve a nice home? yes they do. 

do all kids deserve a nice safe home? more so than dogs.

dont really know what i am trying to say here. i lost the line of thought. doh!


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

JSR said:


> Cos 'reputable' breeders never ever dump dogs at rescues now do they?


No they don't, because if they did they would be scumbags and not reputable, ethical breeders.
The bottom line is, if all the reputable, ethical breeders stopped breeding tomorrow, it would not make the slightest difference to the rescue crisis in the UK. The rescue crisis is the product of the puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders, not the minority of ethical breeders. 
I spend most of my waking hours (when I am not doing things with my own dogs) clearing up the mess made by unethical breeders whose only interest is the cash they can generate from puppy sales. (See my post above)

Mick


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Excellent post Mick, 

Mo


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

davehyde said:


> a lot of this rescue pushing is really emotional blackmail.
> 
> yes i feel sorry for all dogs in rescue.
> 
> ...


I don't think its blackmail at all. People care passionately about rescue dogs just like caring passionately about ethical breeding. And these 2 go hand in hand.....if everyone bred ethically/responsibily or not at all the the rescues (and Britain/ROTW) would not be facing such a crisis.

Its not your fault, nor mine...........but its not the dogs either.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

raindog said:


> No they don't, because if they did they would be scumbags and not reputable, ethical breeders.
> The bottom line is, if all the reputable, ethical breeders stopped breeding tomorrow, it would not make the slightest difference to the rescue crisis in the UK. The rescue crisis is the product of the puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders, not the minority of ethical breeders.
> I spend most of my waking hours (when I am not doing things with my own dogs) clearing up the mess made by unethical breeders whose only interest is the cash they can generate from puppy sales. (See my post above)
> 
> Mick


However, faced with a choice of breeder-supplied or rescue, it is almost impossible for a buyer to discern which breeders are truly ethical and which merely give that facade.

The absence of a meaningful oversight and a quality kitemark is a shameful failing of the breed and kennel clubs.

Rescue has its bad apples too but at least, if we have concerns, there is the Charity Commission and the transparency that charitable status requires.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I work in rescue, but I dont think its right to hound(excuse the pun) people into having rescues, people do have their reasons why they choose to go to a breeder, and I think it is their right to do so, I just hope that when they do they actually pick an ethical one.

mo


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

can everyone make sure this stays on topic please, if it gets out of hand it will be locked, thank you,


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

moboyd said:


> I dont think its right to hound(excuse the pun) people into having rescues


Nor do I (and there's been some of that on this thread) but neither do I think that unhelpful myths and untruths about rescues and rescue dogs (and there's been plenty of that on this thread too) should be allowed to go unchallenged. Ultimately these msiconceptions deter people from considering rescues and that cost lives.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Johnderondon said:


> However, faced with a choice of breeder-supplied or rescue, it is almost impossible for a buyer to discern which breeders are truly ethical and which merely give that facade.
> 
> The absence of a meaningful oversight and a quality kitemark is a shameful failing of the breed and kennel clubs.
> 
> Rescue has its bad apples too but at least, if we have concerns, there is the Charity Commission and the transparency that charitable status requires.


Thats assuming that the rescue in question has charity status


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

I have not yet the whole thread as it would take me all week lol but I thought I would give my opinion.

I don't have a dog so it's based on cats but it's basically the same situation in rescue at the moment.

I breed Birman's so I could be seen as one of these adding to the rescue situation however I see it as different.

I also volunteer for a cat charity and have rescue cats at my home.

To me it's a completely different market.

People who have come to my home looking for a rescue cat have no interest in pedigree's and have asked many times what would possess anyone to spend so much on a cat.

People who have come to look at my Birman's have no interest in the moggies and have spent a long time researching the breed they want and would not be interested in any other breed.

You may argue that if pedigree kittens were not available more people would rescue and whilst this may apply to some people I believe that others would simply not own a pet.

I own both moggies and pedigree's and yes a cat is a cat but when I bought my pedigree's I was looking for something very specific and that would never have been found in a rescue cat.

Any kittens I breed will always come back to me if they need to, I stay in contact with all new owners to ensure this.

I also volunteer and donate to various cat charities so I feel that I am doing my bit to help and that's all I can do really.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Jo P said:


> Thats assuming that the rescue in question has charity status


That is true. And there are some excellent and thoroughly charitable rescues that do not have official charitable status.

However that, too, is transparent (i.e. whether they have a charity no.) and so those who feel unsure or concerned or simply ill-equipped to make the discernment between good and bad can avoid such rescues and go to a registered charity.

It's not perfect but it's something.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> People who have come to my home looking for a rescue cat have no interest in pedigree's ...People who have come to look at my Birman's have no interest in the moggies ...


There's loads of pedigree dogs in rescue (together with a burgeoning market for crossbreeds) so the feline situation is not a good parrallel here.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I have worked in rescue. I choose to own purebreed dogs this time around. My last dogs were rescues 2 out of 4. This time 1 out of four is a rescue. Do I feel guilty NO should I feel guilty NO. Why because I wanted a particular breed and I wanted a particular line. I have that right and so does everyone else. When I just wanted a big black dog as an adult I went to rescue when I wanted a Rough Collie I went to a breeder that I thought was responsible. Not everyone wants the issues that are sometimes related to rescuing a pup or dog ie: knowing for sure qwho the parents were knowing for sure what it will look like, that it can do the job required. Sorry I love rescues but I love my purebreds too.....Jill


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> However, faced with a choice of breeder-supplied or rescue, it is almost impossible for a buyer to discern which breeders are truly ethical and which merely give that facade.


As far as our breed is concerned, we publish a guide to finding an ethical breeder, which, hopefully is pretty foolproof:



> LOOKING FOR A SIBERIAN HUSKY?
> If, after having researched the breed thoroughly, you decide you would like to purchase a Siberian Husky puppy from a breeder, you will need to be extremely careful as there are many more bad breeders out there than good ones.
> There are hundreds of Siberian Husky breeders in the UK. Like most breeds, the quality of the dogs & breeders varies widely. A small proportion of breeders in the UK are reputable and responsible, but most, unfortunately, are not! To the inexperienced it is often very difficult to tell the difference. These are some of the indicators you can use to check breeders out:
> 
> ...





Johnderondon said:


> Rescue has its bad apples too but at least, if we have concerns, there is the Charity Commission and the transparency that charitable status requires.


The RSPCA is a charity, but that doesn't make it an ethical organisation. I think an ethical rescue will be transparent whether it has charitable status or not. For many smaller rescues, charitable status has few, if any benefits, but lots of bureaucratic hassles.

Mick


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## Ratdog (Mar 10, 2009)

I personally would choose rescue every time, altho I can understand that some people are looking for a certain breed and choose going to breeders, rather than waiting for the poor animal that will end up in a kennel.

At the end of the day every one is allowed to choose where they get their beloved animals, and as long as they stay loved and in a home it wont cause too much of a problem. It is those that buy and sell animals to unloved homes where the animal will end up in the kennel that are causing the problem.

If breeders had a "law" type thing to follow im sure it would help things, but saying that who would police a type of "law". I personally think that all owners should have a licence, and those looking to breed should have another type of licence. Hopefully this will help stop those buying animals without doing the research 1st.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi everyone I am new 

We wanted to get another dog as a companion to our 2 yr old Cockerpoo boy and for us of course too.

We wanted to get a rescue to give them a forever loving home and felt that we could offer a good home. We are willing to put in the time and effort and as I am a housewife have plenty of time on my hands.

We looked into various rescues all over UK from independants to the bigger ones via the internet. We have visited one well know one near us a few times now but have not found any suitable matches.

However we are now seriously deciding not to pursue any more rescues after being rejected twice by a well known independant rescue in Wales. I personally have found the whole thing upsetting and don't know if I am the type of person to continue being rejected.

We first got rejected because the ex breeding bitch we fell for couldn't come on holiday with us though we explained we were going to a quiet lodge in Yorkshire set in a small village with lots of fields and beaches nearby.

So we decided to cancel our holiday as dog more important ( sister was taking it off us) only for them to have lost our application and gave her to someone else. (there were promises made to us and mixed up calls etc....._)

We decided to give this rescue one more go though feeling very wary but were rejected again coz the stray cat we look after isn't neutured. 

We have no children, a secure garden, lots of fields and nice walks to take him/her on and plenty of time and love to give.

We wanted a small to med dog up to 4 years of age that likes other dogs and cats and likes to play. We really love x breeds and scruffy looking dogs!! 

We are now considering getting a puppy but this is not definite and we may just settle with the dog we have got as to be honest he doesn't seem to be that bothered about other dogs though does try to play with the cat


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think its hard to make sweeping generalisations about wether people should rescue or not. So many would make great dog owners but dont fit the criteria of a 'perfect dog owner' so are refused and disheartened.
I didnt want my first dog owning experience to be a rescue coz I didnt feel it would be fair if it didnt work out. Each time I want a dog I will be happy to try rescues first, even if I keep getting refused!! I will hope that I can find a dog to rescue, maybe when I retire..
If I had less nervy cats or bigger dogs I would even try private ads but couldnt risk someone had lied about a dogs temperament. I will make do with monetary donations for now!!


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## sillygilly (Oct 6, 2009)

MY beautiful rescued boy found me. He was dumped on the road by dealers and left, I took him to a very famous rescue who refused him as they said they had no room and told me to take him to the local pound which I refused to do, they said they could have him in 4 days, As I already had 2 dogs I agreed to look after him in my stables till then, Needless to say I kept him and he is the most gentle, ,loving, child friendly lurcher you could find. He is so sweet and grateful for everything you do and is proving so clever and trainable. He would have been a perfect family dog for anyone given a chance. My point being that they are out there in rescues, I have nothing against responsible breedeers but there are a lot out there who are in it to make money especially in Wales and they couldnt give a monkeys who has the pups. We have a local fair near us and it is heartbreaking to see the poor puppies being sold. You can smell the dogs before you see them and nothing is done, I shudder to think where they will end up. Everytime I look at my boy I give thanks that fate dealt a hand that day.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

sillygilly said:


> MY beautiful rescued boy found me. He was dumped on the road by dealers and left, I took him to a very famous rescue who refused him as they said they had no room and told me to take him to the local pound which I refused to do, they said they could have him in 4 days, As I already had 2 dogs I agreed to look after him in my stables till then, Needless to say I kept him and he is the most gentle, ,loving, child friendly lurcher you could find. He is so sweet and grateful for everything you do and is proving so clever and trainable. He would have been a perfect family dog for anyone given a chance. My point being that they are out there in rescues, I have nothing against responsible breedeers but there are a lot out there who are in it to make money especially in Wales and they couldnt give a monkeys who has the pups. We have a local fair near us and it is heartbreaking to see the poor puppies being sold. You can smell the dogs before you see them and nothing is done, I shudder to think where they will end up. Everytime I look at my boy I give thanks that fate dealt a hand that day.


Lovely story, well done you x


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## Stay'n'Sit (Sep 22, 2009)

You know what I don't get? People who try a handful of rescues, and bigger ones at that, and complain they've been turned down. There are HUNDREDS of rescues in this country, and not every single one has blanket policies etc. People that say 'been turned down will go to breeder' are those that want NOW, and can't be bothered to wait. Many, many smaller rescues home to you IF YOU'RE THE RIGHT HOME for that PARTICULAR dog, no sweeping generalisation, just wanting the best for that dog...Breeders should do the same, not just say here you go, cos you dot the money!

Be patient!! You can't everything you want, the moment you want it! - No rescue is the same.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Stay'n'Sit said:


> You know what I don't get? People who try a handful of rescues, and bigger ones at that, and complain they've been turned down. There are HUNDREDS of rescues in this country, and not every single one has blanket policies etc. People that say 'been turned down will go to breeder' are those that want NOW, and can't be bothered to wait. Many, many smaller rescues home to you IF YOU'RE THE RIGHT HOME for that PARTICULAR dog, no sweeping generalisation, just wanting the best for that dog...Breeders should do the same, not just say here you go, cos you dot the money!
> 
> Be patient!! You can't everything you want, the moment you want it! - No rescue is the same.


Excellent post! I can't speak for all rescues, just the one that I am involved in, but the utmost priority for us is to ensure that we match the right dog to the right family. The very last thing we want is for the dog to come back in to us after a short (or even long) period as it "hasn't worked."
What adopters *want* comes a far off second place to what the dog *needs*. The dog is primary. If we didn't do this, we would be little better than the crap breeders who produced the dogs in the first place and sold them with little or no thought to the first person with the money in their hand.
Unfortunately, in our "now! now! now!" society, no-one wants to wait and people tend to consider that they have a "right" to have what they want, when they want it. A dog is regarded in the same light as an i-pod or a flat screen telly. If I was refused a dog by a rescue or a breeder, after the initial disappointment,* my* reaction would be to think about the reasons for that refusal and to consider the possibility that maybe I wasn't the right owner for the dog after all.

Mick


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Well we were rejected initially coz of taking dog on holiday and then they mixed up our application and then the second rejection was because out stray cat wasn't neutered nothing to do with the dog!!!!

And what's wrong in wanting a dog now?? we want one as a companion for us and our dog. He is just over 2 and loves to play and would love a mate to play ball with.

We thought the idea is to get them out of rescue as quickly as possible as they don't fair well in kennels.

We want a dog based on it's size and age and compatibility with our dog and cat. We are not fussed about colour or sex and do not look at it as the latest gadget but as a companion and a pet and we have oodles of love and time to give.

It's also like a race with rescues as you are up against other people wanting the same dog. The last one we were rejected for they told me as they still had my application just to email them a few details and then they would get foster mum to ring us. We then got an email back to say they couldn't find our application and to re-do but that the dog wouldn't be reserved for us till they had got it and had called us.

In the meantime others could apply for him. Why couldn't they have put a temp 24 hr hold on him whilst checking our application???


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Oh and I forgot we often see dogs returned on their website due to barking- pulling on lead etc......

Well we wouldn't do that!!! we would try everything and would only return a dog if it was actively aggressive to others. 

Yet these people were vetted and passed and we were rejected coz of taking a dog on holiday and second one because stray cay wasn't neutered


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Well we were rejected initially coz of taking dog on holiday and then they mixed up our application and then the second rejection was because out stray cat wasn't neutered nothing to do with the dog!!!!
> 
> And what's wrong in wanting a dog now?? we want one as a companion for us and our dog. He is just over 2 and loves to play and would love a mate to play ball with.
> 
> ...


The trouble with "wanting a dog now" is that a lot of people do things on the spur of the moment. Hence the saying "a dog is for life and not for xmas".

You maybe totally dedicated and have thought it through. But for every one of you, there are 10 who do it on the spur of the moment.

Like I have said, the rescue centres do not have a magical ball which tells them the quality of the person in front of them. They can only go on the law of averages.

For people who really want a dog, they should be prepared to wait and understand what a difficult job they do.

So, yes it is a problem to want a dog now.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> It's also like a race with rescues as you are up against other people wanting the same dog. The last one we were rejected for they told me as they still had my application just to email them a few details and then they would get foster mum to ring us. We then got an email back to say they couldn't find our application and to re-do but that the dog wouldn't be reserved for us till they had got it and had called us.
> 
> In the meantime others could apply for him. Why couldn't they have put a temp 24 hr hold on him whilst checking our application???


This is exactly why we don't have photos of available dogs on our welfare website. We want to find the right family for the dog, not start a bidding war. If we feel a particular family is right for a particular dog, *then* we will contact them and let them have photo of the dog and see if they are interested. With us, people send in an adoption application. They are then homechecked and if they pass, they then wait until the right dog is found. It may not be ideal for the prospective adopters, but it seems to be the most effective way of ensuring that we find the right permanent home for each dog at the first time of asking.

Mick


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

raindog said:


> This is exactly why we don't have photos of available dogs on our welfare website. We want to find the right family for the dog, not start a bidding war. If we feel a particular family is right for a particular dog, *then* we will contact them and let them have photo of the dog and see if they are interested. With us, people send in an adoption application. They are then homechecked and if they pass, they then wait until the right dog is found. It may not be ideal for the prospective adopters, but it seems to be the most effective way of ensuring that we find the right permanent home for each dog at the first time of asking.
> 
> Mick


I actually prefer your method, then at least the homecheck is done so you have passed that hurdle without getting emotionally attached to a pic of the dog or the dog itself.

We have been looking for months but a lot of dogs have been not suitable because too old, no cats or need to be an only dog.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> The trouble with "wanting a dog now" is that a lot of people do things on the spur of the moment. Hence the saying "a dog is for life and not for xmas".
> 
> You maybe totally dedicated and have thought it through. But for every one of you, there are 10 who do it on the spur of the moment.
> 
> ...


Be prepared to wait for what?? the rescues I have been dealing with as soon as the dogs come in they are reserved so you need to act fast.

So what are we waiting for? we have made a choice to get another dog after serious consideration and decided to get a rescue but have either been rejected or have not found any suitable matches. Yes in that instance we are prepared to wait for the right dog to come along- but again we will be up against others wanting the same dog!


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

Cockerpoo, can you not get a home check/application done for these rescues so that your ready to move forward straight away with the adoption when the dog that fits your requirements comes in?

Have you tried doing a search for dogs that are cat friendly on Rescue Dogs & Dogs for Adoption @ dogsblog.com or perhaps you could put a home offered ad up on and let people find a suitable dog for you on <Dogpages UK dog rescue forums>

I can sort of understand why a rescue may not be keen to home to someone with an unneutered cat if its not kept indoor only, even though its not really related to homing a dog.

I can understand your disappointment in the rescue making an error and rehoming the dog with someone else, but personally i think your better to see it as that dog just wasn't meant to be yours and keep looking for the one that is


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Sorry i know this is off topic but just read this poem, made me CRY!

*Nobodys Dog*

Today is the death day of nobody's dog
Nothing will mark it but a note in the log
I'm faceless and nameless and no tears will fall
For I know in your world I have no worth at all
To you, my sweet someone, I'm a friend and a dear
We ran the wind daily and you held me so near
But the gate was left open - I chanced a walk on my own
I'd have cowered in fear if only I'd known
I know how you cried on the night that I strayed
I know how you searched, I know how you prayed
But I went to a pound far far from our home
Where I crouched in despair in my kennel alone
I know that you phoned for I heard your dear voice
And I hoped you would hear me so I barked myself hoarse 
Although I'm a Lab cross with stockings all white
On their form I'm a Staff cross - the description's not right
So they said I'm not here and I sank to my bed
My kennel cough's worse and I can't raise my head
The rescue came yesterday but they hadn't a place
For an un-neutered cross breed with his mucus-streaked face
If only you'd come to search for me here
You would have known me at once, you would have sensed I was near
You would have sorted my ills, you would have carried me home
And I promise our God no more would I roam
Now my eyes plead for mercy for my seven days are done
And I am waiting with dread for the final vet run
No arms will caress me as they inject me to death
No words will comfort me as I take my last breath
When the body man comes, it is fitting I'm found
In a bin bag in the freezer in the depths of the pound
Thrown away like the rubbish - no respect and no shame
Denied even the time to find you again
My loyalty and devotion they did cruelly betray
Without microchip or nametag, I am just a dispensable stray
Once waggy-tailed, once proud, beloved and free
Oh Dad look with pain at what mankind's done to me!


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