# BSH - help with colours please



## Justyna.D (Jul 24, 2016)

Mum is black golden ny25, dad ny 11 (24), both carry dilution, one granddad is blue golden, one lilac golden... i think we have 2 ny25, one ny11(24) and ny 24, but i have not a clue what this light are... is it lilac?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

One looks lilac but is the other possibly fawn? I'm not familiar with these colours at all so only a guess


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

It does look lilac but the chocolate gene must be inherited from each parent. Because it is recessive to black it may not be possible to tell by looking at the pedigree. From this pic the darker dilute could be blue. What colour are the nose leather and paw pads?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> One looks lilac but is the other possibly fawn? I'm not familiar with these colours at all so only a guess


Fawn and lilac are not both possible from this mating.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Fawn and lilac are not both possible from this mating.


Ahh ok, thanks


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It might be easier if you test your cats to see if they carry cinnamon or chocolate. If you belong to a recognised breed club then most of them have a discount at Langfords. If they were tested for anything else in the past couple of years Langford will still have their DNA and can run extra tests at a cheaper price.

It's also cheaper to have more than one test on a given cat at a time, so you might want to think about that. I know some breeders who always test for PKD even though the cat is negative by inheritance as it's easier to show the results to putative kitten owners rather than try to explain why the cat will be negative. Langford also suggest testing BSH (if I've guessed the breed correctly) for British Shorthair Autoimmune Lymphoproliferative Syndrome (ALPS).

http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagn...eneral-info-breeders/genetic-diseases-and-cat

*if* there is any cinnamon (you would need to look back up to 10 generations to find it) then carrying that is a possibility for both cats - a black or blue cat can carry either chocolate_ or_ cinnamon, though not both. The lilac grand-parent could be pure chocolate, or possibly chocolate carrying cinnamon. I have no idea if the cinnamon BSH program ever got into the goldens.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ah - the penny has dropped - bhs is a typo for BSH.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Aw what gorgeous babies! May I ask what colour the kitten bottom left of the photo is, looks very unusual


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

moggie14 said:


> Aw what gorgeous babies! May I ask what colour the kitten bottom left of the photo is, looks very unusual


That is a very good point, @moggie14 Because the query was about the dilute kittens, I didn't really check the colours of the others. I wonder if there is at least one chocolate?


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## Justyna.D (Jul 24, 2016)

moggie14 said:


> Aw what gorgeous babies! May I ask what colour the kitten bottom left of the photo is, looks very unusual


i think this baby is black golden ticked

Mum carries chocolate, nose leather and paw pads is pink in both diluted babies


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Lovely colours :Happy
How about top right kitten - tortoiseshell?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

moggie14 said:


> Lovely colours :Happy
> How about top right kitten - tortoiseshell?


I think that's a golden?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

moggie14 said:


> Lovely colours :Happy
> How about top right kitten - tortoiseshell?


Tortie is not possible but I do wonder if it is chocolate, unless you mean the one with its head on the one I think could be chocolate. That is definitely black but tabby.


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## Justyna.D (Jul 24, 2016)

moggie14 said:


> Lovely colours :Happy
> How about top right kitten - tortoiseshell?


black golden spotted


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## Justyna.D (Jul 24, 2016)

QOTN said:


> Tortie is not possible but I do wonder if it is chocolate, unless you mean the one with its head on the one I think could be chocolate. That is definitely black but tabby.


it would be lovely if he is chocolate golden, buti don't think dad carries chocolate


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Tortie is not possible but I do wonder if it is chocolate, unless you mean the one with its head on the one I think could be chocolate. That is definitely black but tabby.


Yes the kitten top right lying on top of the other kitten, noticed the almost red colouring on it's head


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Justyna.D said:


> black golden spotted





Justyna.D said:


> it would be lovely if he is chocolate golden, buti don't think dad carries chocolate


How do you know if they are golden? I thought a golden was a non-silver tipped.


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## Justyna.D (Jul 24, 2016)

QOTN said:


> How do you know if they are golden? I thought a golden was a non-silver tipped.


both parents are golden, kittens have peach markings on faces, they are very young yet, i'll post more pictures when they are older, the only surprise from this litter are this two diluted babies, they look solid, no markings at all


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Justyna.D said:


> both parents are golden, kittens have peach markings on faces, they are very young yet, i'll post more pictures when they are older, the only surprise from this litter are this two diluted babies, they look solid, no markings at all


Perhaps you can enlighten me then. I thought goldens originated from Chinchillas and were the non-silver version of a tipped. Are the British goldens that are not tipped another name for standard shadeds?

If we are talking about the wide band gene, I thought it was dominant. If that is the case, even if both parents are wide band they may only have one gene each. Similarly with the Agouti gene.


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## Justyna.D (Jul 24, 2016)

QOTN said:


> Perhaps you can enlighten me then. I thought goldens originated from Chinchillas and were the non-silver version of a tipped. Are the British goldens that are not tipped another name for standard shadeds?
> 
> If we are talking about the wide band gene, I thought it was dominant. If that is the case, even if both parents are wide band they may only have one gene each. Similarly with the Agouti gene.


you know much more about genetics then me, i still learn


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Justyna.D said:


> you know much more about genetics then me, i still learn


I am hazy about goldens. We don't have them in Orientals! We have silver shaded and standard shaded. We do not even have tippeds any longer. There was not enough difference between the tippeds and shadeds so the two breeds were combined long before they reached championship status.


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## Justyna.D (Jul 24, 2016)

QOTN said:


> I am hazy about goldens. We don't have them in Orientals! We have silver shaded and standard shaded. We do not even have tippeds any longer. There was not enough difference between the tippeds and shadeds so the two breeds were combined long before they reached championship status.


i learn from my polish friend, she know alot about genetics etc, but i'm not able to translate it to english


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I have two litters at the moment with pretty much the same genetics involved as your litter and both parents are Tipped. Some of my kittens are ticked based, some genetically spotted but all (putting aside the two selfs in my litters) are BSH tipped - some will be "better" tipped than others depending upon the degree of inheritance of wide banding and/or the ticked gene.

We too have one very, very pale Blue Golden Tipped who looks lilac but cannot possibly be. He is also highly rufoused (for a dilute colour kitten), giving a very 'warm' peachy colour. It is this together with wide banding which causes (some) Blue Golden Tipped BSH to appear to be almost lilac.

I will try to post a few photos of mine for comparison.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

The paler ones are probably Blue Golden as there is dilute on both sides of the pedigree (via the grandparents). You'd need to know the full colours of the entire pedigree to consider the one on the right to be Lilac Golden. I thought it was a light balance issue with the photo rather than showing the actual kitten colour, if the kitten really is Lilac Golden it will have chocolate and dilute coming down both sides of its pedigree.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry, don't think I can manage the photos..bit technically challenged! But take a look on the 'kittens' page here... www.pampurred.co.uk ... my very pale kitten is pretty much identical colour wise to your own


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Found this one on my phone which is probably better for comparison.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Justyna.D said:


> it would be lovely if he is chocolate golden, buti don't think dad carries chocolate


Unless he carries chocolate, lilac isn't possible


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Perhaps you can enlighten me then. I thought goldens originated from Chinchillas and were the non-silver version of a tipped. Are the British goldens that are not tipped another name for standard shadeds?
> 
> If we are talking about the wide band gene, I thought it was dominant. If that is the case, even if both parents are wide band they may only have one gene each. Similarly with the Agouti gene.


I believe tipped from Chinchillas is different to golden, but don't quote me on that.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> I believe tipped from Chinchillas is different to golden, but don't quote me on that.


Golden Persian is the non-silver version of a chinchilla. I have actually looked up golden tipped BSH and it is the same, with the tipped EMS code being y11 followed by the tabby base. I am not so clear about the y followed by just the tabby pattern. @gskinner123 is y24 and y25 the same as a standard shaded with a spotted (24) and ticked (25) base? (I don't think Orientals have the tabby base added to the code because the whole idea is to have as little tabby pattern visible as possible.)


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Golden Persian is the non-silver version of a chinchilla. I have actually looked up golden tipped BSH and it is the same, with the tipped EMS code being y11 followed by the tabby base. I am not so clear about the y followed by just the tabby pattern. @gskinner123 is y24 and y25 the same as a standard shaded with a spotted (24) and ticked (25) base? (I don't think Orientals have the tabby base added to the code because the whole idea is to have as little tabby pattern visible as possible.)


It is, but I think the gene causing golden is different to the gene causing silver to create the Chinchilla? I have a book that has all of this detailed, but can I find it? :Banghead


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> It is, but I think the gene causing golden is different to the gene causing silver to create the Chinchilla? I have a book that has all of this detailed, but can I find it? :Banghead


QOTN is unsurprisingly correct. Chincillas have the 'gene that causes golden', otherwise known as the wide band gene. They also have the silver gene.

http://felinegenetics.missouri.edu/feline-research-projects/silver-and-golden

"Cats with extremely long bands [of colour] appear as chinchilla's when the cats are silver and goldens when the cats are non-silver."


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> It is, but I think the gene causing golden is different to the gene causing silver to create the Chinchilla? I have a book that has all of this detailed, but can I find it? :Banghead


@OrientalSlave gives the explanation above, or, to put it another way, the only difference between golden and chinchilla is that the latter has the silver gene *in addition* to wide band.

In Maine Coons the golden is called standard shaded as in Orientals and the chinchilla equivalent is a silver shaded.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> It is, but I think the gene causing golden is different to the gene causing silver to create the Chinchilla?


There is no such thing as the Golden gene. As @QOTN says, silver is simply a Golden (Brown) cat with the inhibitor gene. Golden cats are actually just Brown tabbies but with wide band which pushes the black right tip the tip of the hair leaving just the warm reddish-brown showing.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ahh I see, thanks both for explaining


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Although you see many breeders using the tabby (denoting pattern) code at the end of the EMS coding, these will almost be exclusively outside of the UK. Within GCCF, Tipped (of whatever colour) may be genetically ticked, classic or spotted, ie there is no requirement in the SOP for them to be one or the other.

Historically, all BSH Tipped in the UK were genetically spotted. We now have a fair number of imported Tipped (especially non silver, dilute colours) and the vast majority of these are genetically ticked. In Russia particularly (and to some extent in Europe as a result of Russian imports) you see a lot of "extreme Goldens" (the breeders do actually call them something like that, cannot recall the actual term) where the preference is for homozygous ticked Tipped and maximum expression of wide band. These cats are an incredibly bright copper/orange colour, often with no tipping to the ends of the hairs (tail tip and a few tail rings aside), completely white legs/underparts and loss of eye-liner, node leather pigmentation. A few in the UK have imported such cats because of the incredibly bright gold colouring and complete lack of tabby markings,


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