# Allowing non-pedigree cats to breed- why is it so frowned upon?



## Lemspa (Nov 30, 2016)

I am an animal biology student and looking for some opinions on this subject.
Visit any cat or vet website and you will be advised strongly to get you kitten spayed or neutered, most advice forums also enforce this idea. 

I do understand overpopulation and shelter space is a genuine concern. However, the discouragement of keeping your cat intact will (has) caused kittens to either be born in poor socioeconomic areas or to semi feral farm cats in rural areas.
This leads to poor welfare for the kittens born in poorer areas, and far less friendly kittens born in the rural ones.

Surely with this in mind it shouldnt be black and white as to whether owners should neuter or spay?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If you re-examine your statement you might be able to see the flaws in your argument. You say that the supply of kittens is limited to those from 'poor socioeconomic areas or 'semi-feral farm cats.' You imply these do not make good kittens. Is this from a health point of view or because their temperaments may be suspect or both?

You further imply that kittens from other domestic shorthair cats would be better in some way. However there is no guarantee this will be the case. If you look at the Cat Training and Behaviour section on this forum you will see the myriad problems that can come from some of these haphazard matings.

Add to this the problem you mention of over-population and surely it is easy to understand why neutering is strongly recommended. 

I know it often used to be said that cats should be allowed one litter before they are spayed. To me this is the worst possible situation. Where is the sire to be sourced? How can he be checked for obvious health problems let alone any genetic conditions he may carry. The suggestion behind this idea is that the cat will produce kittens like shelling peas with no danger and no effort on the part of the owner. This may be true sometimes but is by no means certain. Pregnancy and labour can and does go wrong. 

Surely it is best that early neutering should be the norm until the problem of over-population has been addressed. This is the sensible solution for dealing with the present situation. Plenty of time to re-consider when there are not countless unwanted cats euthanized every year. In the meantime, those who want a 'better' kitten can turn to the rescues who bother to keep their kittens until they are socialised and ensure they are healthy when they are rehomed.

The alternative is a pedigree kitten. I know only too well that there are many pitfalls even when choosing a registered kitten and I am the last person to defend some so-called pedigree breeders, but those who bother to research before choosing have a better chance of a healthy well socialised kitten.


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## Lemspa (Nov 30, 2016)

I agree with your points on addressing over population. I also understand the reasoning behind neutering a sensible majority of the moggy population. I wouldn't say that I am saying shorthaired domestics are better in some way, although domestic shorthairs are the result of natural selection and so arguably most adapted to their environment (given it's environment is temperate). 

I am implying unfortunately that kittens from poor socio-economic areas and rural areas do not make good domestic pets. This I can do from experience. These cats are notoriously malnourished, unvaccinated, unflead and wormed. In my cat's case he is extremely food orientated, will steal whatever and whenever he can, as a result of not being fed anywhere near enough and having to compete for food, and this was not because the cats were intentionally underfed but because the 'breeder' did not realise how much the kittens needed to eat. He is extremely affectionate but will not let you near his face as a result of the 'breeder's' children pulling his whiskers out. These bad experiences lead to a problematic cat. 
As a child we adopted a kitten from an animal sanctuary who had a feral mother. She was skittish still can't be trusted not to bite or scratch if she decides you've touched the wrong place, she's far more independent and did not make a good pet, especially with children. 

My point is, some people do prefer moggies, and would choose them over a pedigree. Why can we not support the intelligent breeding and care of domestic shorthairs? I do understand there are swathes of cats in shelters needing homes. but the point i put to you is, potentially, if cats are reared well and become calm loving house pets, would that not reduce shelter numbers? People in poorer socio-economic areas are earning money from selling their kittens and will continue to do so; I believe until education/ spay neuter schemes curbs it. But having well reared kittens from responsible people gives both the consumer and the kitten the better alternatives.


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## Greydrift (Oct 13, 2015)

Lemspa said:


> ... the discouragement of keeping your cat intact will (has) caused kittens to either be born in poor socioeconomic areas or to semi feral farm cats in rural areas.


If the statement postulates that encouraging neutering, results in disproportionately unneutered cats in poorer areas and to semi-feral farm cats: then it would be intriguing to see the data, particularly once modified to account for variables like population densities (human and feline), 'working' vs. pet cats, and the like.

Are there more moggy kittens/sq km being produced in urban areas, or rural?

Are there more moggy kittens being produced per (say) unit humans in lower socio-economic regions vs. higher economic regions (adjusting for relative wage rating in different areas of the country)?

Are farm cats which are unneutered, unneutered because of cost? Certainly, it is a factor, but as to it being the sole and significant one? I'm not sure; what does the data indicate? Feral & semi-feral cat populations are notoriously difficult to keep under control, they are in effect, wild animals, and with that comes all the usual population constraints seen in cohorts/other species e.g. mice, rats, stoats, foxes etc. So in comes disease, parasites (with the caveat that they may in fact be genetically evolved to deal with a certain parasite load, and we have yet to see if humans are upsetting the homeostatic applecart through carte blanche removal), prey levels, environmental factors, and predation.... it's a hard life, but that's nature, weeding out the unfavoured and the unlucky. There are cheaper ways to neuter farm cats - charities can help - but over-population of ferals is also controlled by humans in another way.

There are also still-held beliefs, that a good mouser/ratter is not neutered, and not fed extra by the farm - so here, the monetary aspect is irrelevant to the hypothesis, with the state of the cat representing what is thought to be the best working condition, for the benefit of the farm. Fortunately that's changing, but it hasn't gone yet.

The second part of the hypothesis...



Lemspa said:


> This leads to poor welfare for the kittens born in poorer areas, and far less friendly kittens born in the rural ones.


The two parts of the sentence are open to discussion. The mathematical connotations don't hold true. Poorer socio-economic conditions may overall lead to poorer care as compared to higher economic areas, but _in doesn't lead to poor welfare as a matter of course. _There may well be higher individual instances of cruelty & neglect coming from the poorer socio-economic areas, however, as a factor of this overall population, these percentages are likely to be tiny. This likely leaves the vast majority looking after their pets in a decent manner.

The 'far less friendly' conclusion is a misnomer, misleading, as the behavioural necessities for a self-sufficient cat require it to be far less amenable to humans than a pet one. Survival requires it. Certainly, a mother-raised feral kitten, is feral. Equally, a hand-reared feral kitten can be a bouncing, loving 'pet cat' with no trace of feral, and you get all the gamut in between, depending upon circumstance.

Overall, taking the gist of the hypothesis, there are still many questions relating to its format e.g. its stance on moggy kittens born in higher socio-economic regions, moggy 'cross-breeding' for profit (unscrupulous backyard breeders), the fallacy of many people still wanting to let a cat have a litter (across all economic backgrounds).

If the bottom line is simply, should all moggies be neutered? Then I would agree (given current population circumstances). There are too many unwanted cats & kittens, and to be born/dumped as a pet animal, only to be euthanased because there is no home for you.... is an appalling situation.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Lemspa said:


> *domestic shorthairs are the result of natural selection and so arguably most adapted to their environment (given it's environment is temperate).*
> 
> *I am implying unfortunately that kittens from poor socio-economic areas and rural areas do not make good domestic pets*.
> 
> My point is, some people do prefer moggies, and would choose them over a pedigree. *Why can we not support the intelligent breeding and care of* *domestic* *shorthairs?* I do understand there are swathes of cats in shelters needing homes. but the point i put to you is, potentially, if cats are reared well and become calm loving house pets, would that not reduce shelter numbers? People in poorer socio-economic areas are earning money from selling their kittens and will continue to do so; I believe until education/ spay neuter schemes curbs it. But having well reared kittens from responsible people gives both the consumer and the kitten the better alternatives.


Natural selection will favour the characteristics that enable a cat to survive and have a good chance of breeding. A reasonable litter size ensures some offspring will survive to carry on the species. There is nothing necessarily in natural selection in this instance to suggest it will produce a suitable pet. Indeed some recessive mutations that produce late onset conditions may persist simply because, in hard times, it can be a benefit if the cats who have already bred die young. This does not produce a suitable pet since most people want their cat to have reasonable longevity. Neither does the strong mating instinct that may be required for the species to survive nor the urge to hunt which must be strong for a cat to be able to fend for itself.

Surely the suggestion that irresponsible breeders are from only* 'poorer socio-economic areas'* is completely false. BYBs come from all sorts of backgrounds. As I said before, there are good rescues that produce well socialised kittens who have been health checked and they are just as likely to produce cats suitable as pets than any other method.

You ask why *'intelligent breeding and care of domestic shorthairs'* should not be supported. I suggest that the general public would not be willing to pay the sort of prices that such breeders would have to ask to cover their costs and it would be almost impossible to build up knowledge of lines and modify behaviour over many generations in order to reliably produce the sort of cat you would wish. I am afraid your statement belittles the efforts of good pedigree breeders who spend much time and money in promoting their chosen breed, studying lines and pedigrees, researching the breed, testing for known genetic diseases and gaining a body of knowledge from extended experience and other breeders to enable successful breeding with the minimum of risk to the queen.

It is unrealistic to expect a DSH to be the same as a pedigree cat and in any case, why would that be desirable? There are so many different pedigree breeds that surely there will be one to suit every possible requirement.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

I think you are trying to extrapolate too much from your own tiny sample.

I think also, you know what you want your answer to be and you are looking for the facts to fit that.

Look into the cost of breeding. Consider how most moggies are bred. consider how much it would cost to breed a moggy compared to 'accidental' moggy births...


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Lemspa said:


> I am implying unfortunately that kittens from poor socio-economic areas and rural areas do not make good domestic pets. This I can do from experience. These cats are notoriously malnourished, unvaccinated, unflead and wormed.


Absolutely disagree with this.

We have a cat, Dave, who we got as a tiny kitten from a farm a mile away (we are not in a poor area), yes the farm was rural though (obviously). She's now slightly overweight, vaccinated, flead and wormed.

To say that only affluent areas can breed decent DSH cats is a bit bonkers IMO. Unplanned and unresearched matings happen everywhere and can have unwanted consequences.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MilleD said:


> To say that only affluent areas can breed decent DSH cats is a bit bonkers IMO.


Agree 100%. I know incredibly poor families who poured love and attention into litters of ill bred moggies and therefore produced healthy and friendly kittens. I know of quite wealthy breeders who don't socialise their kittens and do the bare minimum. ALL kittens need socialised - tamed if you like. The highest bred pedigree is not born a sweet natured pet. Anyone who thinks they are has very little, if any, experience of kitten development.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Indeed some recessive mutations that produce late onset conditions may persist simply because, in hard times, it can be a benefit if the cats who have already bred die young


Or it simply doesn't affect a cat until it has reproduced.



QOTN said:


> You ask why *'intelligent breeding and care of domestic shorthairs'* should not be supported


Don't get why longhairs weren't included by the OP, but let's be clear, I don't support deliberate breeding of DSH or DLH and won't until the shelters are empty. Pigs may fly...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> Agree 100%. I know incredibly poor families who poured love and attention into litters of ill bred moggies and therefore produced healthy and friendly kittens. I know of quite wealthy breeders who don't socialise their kittens and do the bare minimum. ALL kittens need socialised - tamed if you like. The highest bred pedigree is not born a sweet natured pet. Anyone who thinks they are has very little, if any, experience of kitten development.


Apart from the obvious need for good nutrition, and control of worms & fleas, the crucial bit is the 'sensitive period' which is from about 2-7 weeks in kittens. That's the time when they learn humans are not monsters, to accept us, to enjoy playing with us and of course to see us as providers of food, attention, warmth and comfortable beds. Hence kittens should be brought up in the house, preferably in a busy room, and handled lots once they can see & hear.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> the crucial bit is the 'sensitive period' which is from about 2-7 weeks in kittens.


Absolutely - something which isn't dependent on the socio-economic status of the owner.

I can't think of a single reason not to neuter a pet mog but I find the general tone that social status should be a determinant highly offensive.


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## Lemspa (Nov 30, 2016)

Clearly I am going against the grain here. Does anyone have any statistics when it comes to numbers in shelter vs. Numbers in homes?


QOTN said:


> There are so many different pedigree breeds that surely there will be one to suit every possible requirement.


This seems a very bias thing to say. Not every person wants a pedigree, of course you know the cats lineage, and health history but in this way you are suggesting that eventually we should only have pedigrees and no moggies at all. Why would this be better? Small gene pools, inbreeding, no hybrid vigour, inbred complications; I find it hard to believe a brachycephalic persian is going to be more healthy overall than a DSH (or DLH).
It seems the people here believe deeply that these animals are a genetic mess, not monitored and suseptible to a myriad of problems. I'm afraid you'd have to work hard to convince me that pedigree cats are of higher genetic quality.

As for breeding cost of conscientious DSH breeding, I do believe it could easily be done, if a person knows that the cats have had the best upbringing and is the kind of cat they want why would they not choose that over their counterparts?

Another point i'd like to mention is that, sure there are cases where people in poorer areas can love and care for their cat's kittens effectively, but plenty- I assure you- can't. And this can cause detrimental health and welfare problems for the animal.
Why can it not therefore be concieved that these animals can be bred and monitered in more stable, healthy environments while keeping the intigrity of the DSH and the genepool intact?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

As an animal biology student I think you need to start looking at humans with a less black and white attitude.

Yes, there are people in poorer areas that don't look after their pets correctly. But equally there are rich folks who don't give a sh*t either.

If DSHs are "bred and monitored in more stable, healthy environments while keeping the integrity of the DSH and the genepool intact", aren't you sort of creating a new kind of pedigree there?


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## Lemspa (Nov 30, 2016)

MilleD said:


> If DSHs are "bred and monitored in more stable, healthy environments while keeping the integrity of the DSH and the genepool intact", aren't you sort of creating a new kind of pedigree there?


No quite the opposite, I'm promoting conscientious breeding of mixed breed cats. Passing the job to people that want and love the responsibility of raising kittens and are prepared to pay for it, rather than it falling to people who are less inclined. I'm sorry for generalising people, and im sure there are poorer people who pour their heart and soul into raising kittens and i know there are rich people who couldnt care less. But I say pass it on to people with know how and resources.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Lemspa said:


> Why can it not therefore be concieved that these animals can be bred and monitered in more stable, healthy environments while keeping the intigrity of the DSH and the genepool intact?


I'm not as good at putting forward my arguments as some of our members, who have stated the reasons against moggy breeding very eloquently, but surely the proposal I have quoted would lead to the breeding of 'pedigree' moggies. If you are going to let a queen out to mate with any random tom cat then your breeding programme would be open to all manner of genetic and transmitted disease. If you keep your own tom and queen, health checked and vaccinated, not allowing them out to mix with other cats, you are narrowing your gene pool - as you suggest happens with pedigrees (and to some extent it does, I agree, which is why a good breeder knows the pedigrees of the cats they use in breeding and works to avoid the problems)


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

It's a massive leap to assume that all or most randomly bred cats have behaviour problems based on your experience of two, especially when, in both cases, you seem to have know the history of the cats before you adopted them and so presumably accepted that they may not make ideal family pets.

Rescues are full of perfect examples of very friendly moggies with no health or behaviour issues crying out for homes.

John Bradshaw has suggested selective breeding of DSH in order to produce an animal that is more suited to the modern environment. If the rescue situation changed and the DSH was genuinely deteriorating or at risk of becoming extinct I would be all for some kind of controlled breeding provided it did not turn moggies into a pedigree with a standard but maintained their wide variation. However, whilst tens of thousands of perfectly friendly healthy moggies remain in rescue I believe the harm in encouraging breeding of more moggies would far outweigh any benefit.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lemspa said:


> No quite the opposite, I'm promoting conscientious breeding of mixed breed cats. Passing the job to people that want and love the responsibility of raising kittens and are prepared to pay for it,


Are you suggesting such people would choose to spend out large amounts of money breeding these kittens and not pass the cost on? Either such kittens would have to cost the same as pedigrees or you are presuming a very philanthropic attitude on the part of the breeders and yes, only the very wealthy could do so. Is that the thrust of your economic bias?

Otherwise, do you have any evidence of a ready market for pedigree priced, non pedigree kittens?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lemspa said:


> Clearly I am going against the grain here. Does anyone have any statistics when it comes to numbers in shelter vs. Numbers in homes?
> 
> This seems a very bias thing to say. Not every person wants a pedigree, of course you know the cats lineage, and health history but in this way you are suggesting that eventually we should only have pedigrees and no moggies at all. Why would this be better? Small gene pools, inbreeding, no hybrid vigour, inbred complications; I find it hard to believe a brachycephalic persian is going to be more healthy overall than a DSH (or DLH).
> It seems the people here believe deeply that these animals are a genetic mess, not monitored and suseptible to a myriad of problems. I'm afraid you'd have to work hard to convince me that pedigree cats are of higher genetic quality.
> ...


I don't believe DSH / DLH are a genetic mess, though they are by no means immune to inherited diseases - any inherited disease which only becomes a problem after the cat has reproduced won't get removed by Darwinism.

However I do believe the numbers of cats & kittens in rescues is a mess, hence I don't think moggie breeding (which is where a lot of the rescue kittens originate) is an appropriate thing to do. There are plenty in rescues and with their foster carers, and kittens from those backgrounds are as likely to be well-socialised as from any other background. I know, I used to foster cats with their kittens.

Yes there are welfare issues where people can't afford to care for their animals, but there are plenty where they can but won't do so. I had the misfortune to see an example not so long ago, from a couple living in a nice (on the outside) home with two far from cheap cars on the drive.

And I'm 100% with havoc about the 'low social status' comments. Again you imply that people in poorer areas can't provide 'more stable, healthy environments'. That's just plain nasty.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Lemspa said:


> This seems a very bias thing to say. Not every person wants a pedigree, of course you know the cats lineage, and health history but in this way you are suggesting that eventually we should only have pedigrees and no moggies at all. Why would this be better? *Small gene pools, inbreeding, no hybrid vigour, inbred complications;* I find it hard to believe a brachycephalic persian is going to be more healthy overall than a DSH (or DLH).
> It seems the people here believe deeply that *these animals are a genetic mess, not monitored and suseptible* to a myriad of problems. I'm afraid you'd have to work hard to convince me that pedigree cats are of higher genetic quality.
> 
> *As for breeding cost of conscientious DSH breeding, I do believe it could easily be done, if a person knows that the cats have had the best upbringing and is the kind of cat they want why would they not choose that over their counterparts? *
> ...


I can only repeat what I said in my first response. Try to see the flaws in your generalisations. 'Small gene pools, inbreeding, no hybrid vigour, inbred complications' can all be features of non-pedigree populations depending on their circumstances. The crucial difference is that these are unknowns whereas they are recognised as present by *GOOD *pedigree breeders who strive to produce the best cats they can because they love the breed.

If DSH were bred in the same way as pedigree cats with their inheritance recorded for countless generations and registration bodies attempting to regulate the breeding, you would indeed have a cat that would be a pedigree and presumably susceptible to all the contempt you shower on other pedigree breeds.

Why compare a DSH to a brachycephalic Persian when there are plenty of pedigree breeds with absolutely no physical deformities. I admit that there are breeds it is difficult to defend but there are also many that surely would be acceptable to anybody who was not blinkered and trying to believe the worst of all pedigrees.

You obviously know very little about genetic inheritance. I can assure you that socialisation of kittens is not the whole story. Certainly a non-socialised kitten is unlikely to grow up to be an acceptable pet but all the socialisation in the world cannot drastically change inherited characteristics only modify them. Admittedly these characteristics can be changed to a certain extent within a number of generations but is never 100% effective since they are likely to be polygenic.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Lemspa said:


> My point is, some people do prefer moggies, and would choose them over a pedigree.


And they can find these cats at shelters. Your program would leave all these cats languishing in shelters or simply killed. The sickly starving ones you talk about never should have been born in the first place. Spaying and neutering prevents that from happening.


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## Lemspa (Nov 30, 2016)

Unfortunately I cant respond to all of you. Thank you for your opinions. I dont aspire to insult those of you that breed pedigree cats. I dont mean to cast those cats in shelters to the sidelines either.

I have worked and volunteered at several shelters/sanctuaries/catteries that cared for RSPCA cats, of the 8 cats my family and I have owned all but 1 were from shelters or taken from bad situations. So I am completely understanding of cats needing homes in shelters. That issue is another can of worms. The homing process is scrupulous and sometimes people would prefer to just find a kitten on the internet than be assessed by a shelter and be potentially told they won't be suitable, but as I say I digress on that one, and I won't go into it.

Breeders have the cat's welfare and health firmly at heart that is clear. And from that respect they are the better choice in terms making sure the cat you are buying has been cared for appropriately. Breeders are also more likely to follow up on their kittens and take them back if there is a problem which is very commendable.

However saying this breeding does allow for the loss of certain phenotypes.
Spaying and neutering also cause this; I say this particularly because in my own personal experience it is far harder to find, say, a ginger cat than it once was. This is due to neutering and spaying reducing genepools.

I can tell no one here will agree with this perspective, and I respect your opinions but the loss of genetic diversity is the biggest disaster to happen in any species. And because of that I believe that if a person or people have the understanding, the education, the care and the funds to do so they should not be ostracised for allowing their cat to have kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lemspa said:


> I have worked and volunteered at several shelters/sanctuaries/catteries that cared for RSPCA cats, of the 8 cats my family and I have owned all but 1 were from shelters or taken from bad situations. So I am completely understanding of cats needing homes in shelters. *That issue is another can of worms*.


It is exactly the same can of worms - just an argument for adding to an already overflowing can.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Lemspa said:


> would that not reduce shelter numbers?


I see what you are trying to say @Lemspa; however, I don't think this would help the rescues...if your cat has, say, six kittens, you are going to find six new homes for them presumably...or hope to anyway. Those six new owners might otherwise have taken a kitten from a rescue (or from a fosterer who was fostering for a rescue). Those six kittens will now still be waiting for a home and taking up a rescue or a foster space. The rescues are full...full to bursting in the ''kitten season''. PF has a cat adoption and rescue page, people post and are advised by PF members to try rescues. The reply is normally, ''Done that, they are all full.''...or, ''There is a waiting list.''


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I am not sure there would be any evidence for a scarcity of the red gene in the DSH genepool because of neutering. In pedigree breeding every ginger male or female must pass on their one red gene (ginger male) or at least one of their two red genes (female) plus about half the time the red gene will be passed on by a tortie female, so all things being equal (health, temperament etc.) the red gene is not likely to be 'lost.' In the same way unless those neutering cats were deliberately targeting red or tortie cats I cannot see how this could be blamed for any reduction in numbers.

I think your suggestion that there should be more cats bred simply to satisfy your desire for a particular colour rather a callous attitude to all the others bred at the same time and surplus to requirements who might have difficulty finding homes.


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## Lemspa (Nov 30, 2016)

Calvine said:


> if your cat has, say, six kittens, you are going to find six new homes for them presumably...or hope to anyway. Those six new owners might otherwise have taken a kitten from a rescue


@Calvine this is a very good point and I do agree with you that is something very much to be considered, thank you for pointing that out.
@QOTN I think you may have taken this discussion rather personally and felt the need to call my opinion callous and my views uneducated. 
I like to think we are intitled to our own opinions; I'm sure if I visited a vegan forum and said 'is it really just black and white that we shouldnt eat meat?' There would be a very similar response to the ones here.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't get the feeling that anyone has taken posts personally - far from it. This is a forum to discuss responsible breeding.


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## Lemspa (Nov 30, 2016)

@havoc in that case I dont see the need for those particular adjectives or presumptions of character


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lemspa said:


> @havoc in that case I dont see the need for those particular adjectives or presumptions of character


I find them perfectly justified because you are attempting to justify irresponsible breeding. The kindest interpretation is that you were doing so from a position of ignorance.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't see how I could take any of this discussion personally since I am not even aware of my socio-economic status now I am old. (Anybody who is in a 'poor socio-economic area' could be forgiven for taking some of your remarks personally.) Furthermore I have never owned a DSH from any source and I no longer breed pedigree cats but I have tried to point out your view of pedigree breeds may be very restricted whilst I have agreed that some pedigree cats do have problems.

I have simply tried to highlight some of the consequences of your suggestions. I am afraid I do think it is callous to disregard the welfare of cats who are not of your chosen colour.

Nobody here has taken a black and white view. The general opinion seems to be that there are cats available already which meet your requirements without having a sort of pedigree moggy which can only add to over-population.

I admit to anxiety about novices breeding cats without any mentor to help when things go wrong. I have sat by my laptop into the night several times trying to help people on this very forum whose cats have problems giving birth, usually from an 'accidental mating.' Look at some of the posts by ARC rescue to see some of the things that can go wrong.

In any situation my concern is always for the cat.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Hmmm, for a someone claiming to be a biology student you are making an awful lot of assumptions in which your judgment is clouded by your own limited experiences.



Lemspa said:


> However, the discouragement of keeping your cat intact will (has) caused kittens to either be born in poor socioeconomic areas or to semi feral farm cats in rural areas. This leads to poor welfare for the kittens born in poorer areas, and far less friendly kittens born in the rural ones.


Since when? The friendliest, calmest, gentlest cat I ever had was a moggie born to feral parents on a farm.



Lemspa said:


> Small gene pools, inbreeding, no hybrid vigour, inbred complications; I find it hard to believe a brachycephalic persian is going to be more healthy overall than a DSH (or DLH).It seems the people here believe deeply that these animals are a genetic mess, not monitored and suseptible to a myriad of problems. I'm afraid you'd have to work hard to convince me that pedigree cats are of higher genetic quality.


It is a common misconception that moggies come from a broad gene pool and don't suffer from inbreeding, yet nothing could be further from the truth. The cat I mentioned above was the result of a brother/sister mating, the brother was also his sisters father. Such a breeding is frowned on in pedigree circles and I believe it is also banned by some of the registries. It has been shown that cats don't actually travel far from home and a dominant entire moggie traveling his home patch will mate with any in season queens he finds regardless of whether they are his relations, which given time, some almost certainly will be. The lack of a documented family tree makes it oh so easy for people to say moggies are from a genetically diverse background. The simple truth is YOU DONT KNOW!



Lemspa said:


> Why can it not therefore be concieved that these animals can be bred and monitered in more stable, healthy environments while keeping the intigrity of the DSH and the genepool intact?


Because the moment you take a group of animals and start breeding them, you have created a 'pedigree genepool' and are limited by it. Unless you test every single member you have no idea if they are truly heathy and not passing on serious disease such as Heart defects.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Lemspa said:


> However saying this breeding does allow for the loss of certain phenotypes.
> Spaying and neutering also cause this; I say this particularly because in my own personal experience it is far harder to find, say, a ginger cat than it once was. This is due to neutering and spaying reducing genepools.
> .


Is there any actual _evidence_ for this?

I am very surprised to see a scientist, such as you are, drawing conclusions from such wildly subjective statements with absolutely no evidence to support any of it.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Are you aware of the widespread misconceptions about feline reproduction amongst the general public and the demographics of this? The results of a survey of such were published a couple of years back. Might be helpful in your own research.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Lemspa - I am sorry I have only just seen your thread.

The PAW Report of 2015 estimates there are around 11.1 million owned cats in the UK. It is reckoned that 90% of the cat population needs to be neutered to achieve a stable population. PAW states the number of neutered cats in the UK has increased from 89% in 2011 to 92% in 2015. So it could be said the battle is being won. Unfortunately there are still far more cats than there are homes for. More than 150,000 cats a year are taken in by Rescues and nearly 20,000 of these are euthanised for reasons such as behavoural or physical problems and due to lack of space in the shelters.

At the recent Icat Care Conference in October one of the topics on the programme was "An update on neutering". This was a presentation given by Maggie Roberts, a vet with 30 years experience , who is the Director of Veterinary Services at Cats Protection.

During her talk she said the following :-

"_As more of the owned cat population are neutered it is possible that a selection pressure is being exerted and that most domestic cats in future may be the progeny of feral or stray cats. This could result in inadvertently selecting out the most friendly cats and leaving the more shy and wary ones. It is important that the feral (cat) population is tackled as well as the owned one. It would not be a good situation if all kittens bred were pure-bred /pedigree."_

and also :-

" _There are some areas (in the UK) where non-purebred/pedigree domestic shorthaired kittens are becoming harder to come by and this is driving some people to breed deliberately, often in less than ideal conditions, advertising online on sites such as Gumtree. Kittens born into a domestic household make the most well socialised pets, *providing the owner follows best practice *(my emphasis) which sadly does not always happen." 
_

In view of the above I can see there might be an argument in theory for breeding non-pedigree domestic shorthaired cats in a responsible manner, with proper care for the cats and the kittens. However, I must agree with previous posters, I can't see how this could actually work in practice.

'Best practice' would mean following the same guidelines followed by breeders of pedigree cats. Raising healthy kittens is expensive and most breeders are lucky to break even, (balancing their costs with the proceeds of sale). Pedigree kittens sell from around £250 upwards dependent upon market forces.

People are prepared to pay those prices because they are getting a kitten of a certain or unusual appearance and with fairly predictable characteristics of temperament. The price also reflects the health testing that has been carried out by the breeder. I cannot imagine a buyer being willing to pay a similar figure for a moggie kitten of usual moggy appearance, unpredictable temperament, and no health testing, no matter how cute looking.

It costs anything from £75 to £100 to adopt a kitten from a Rescue and the kitten will be vaccinated and, quite often these days, neutered. Therefore the Rescues do not expect to cover their costs by the sale of the kittens. How many private individual would be willing to carry such costs ? Not many I think.

I don't know what the answer is long term to ensuring the availability of healty well socialised domestic moggy kittens and also protecting the genetic diversity of the domestic moggy population. It is a concern I agree. At present the aims of the cat welfare charities are to get a higher percentage of the feral cat population neutered, and to educate more owners into having their cats neutered by the age of 4 months, so we do not have such large numbers of stray cats coming in to Rescues.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

In essence it has already been done with the European Shorthair, recognised by FIFe. Although it is difficult to identify a DSH that meets the breed standard to register the cat as a novice. http://www1.fifeweb.org/dnld/std/EUR.pdf due to the cross breeding of other breeds.

This is the Finnish European Cat Clubs breed site http://www.eurooppalaiskissat.net/english.htm

They are a relatively rare breed, I am fairly sure there is not one in the U.K. , there wasn't any shown at the FIFe world Cat Show in Vienna this year with 10 shown last year at the WCS in Malmo, Sweden.

As these are registered with FIFe they would require not being sold until minimum of 12 weeks and have had both vaccinations. Therefore they would be far more expensive that the £75 that is the kitten charge for our foster cats (and we provide neutering as well).

We fostered a litter here, from we think breeding from pretty moggies, as there were multiple litters of different ages, where it all went wrong. They ended up being bailed out by charity, I think in vets bills food litter etc. it was in the £1000s

So in essence no I don't think we should be breeding DSH and if you like the DSH look get one from the rescue centre and neuter it or if you want to breed from get an European short hair or go on a quest to find the DSH you can register as a novice. Take them out on exhibition to raise the breed profile.

I have Norwegian Forest Cats which are a natural breed and I can trace mine back to the novices (I.e cats that came out of the Forest including Timotei) And I am grateful that time was spent preserving the uniqueness, but it needs to be done under guidance and with structure.

Also my Norwegians are far too friendly to go outside, as they have lost their fear, they have the wild expression but selective breeding for temperament has meant they are confident cuddly cats. Whereas my rescue DSH despite being friendly and cuddly still have that fear so don't walk into people's house and sleep in their beds, get in cars. Although there are DSH around that are like that, so by breeding DSH we are likely to over select for personality and end up with the same problem.


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