# Why it might be all over for us ...



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I posted a thread a little while ago asking about HCM testing.

It turns out that Chaz, one of Rilly's babies from this year has tested Heterozygous  So this means that Rilly is either Homozygous or Heterozygous herself as the stud we used has tested clear.

Now I am aware that this new test for HCM in BSH _is_ new, and there are many differing opinions about whether the test is even worth doing. This is because it only identifies 1 of many possible genes that could be responsible for HCM in BSH's. It has also not been proven yet whether this 1 gene has in fact been responsible for any deaths in any BSH's.

However being a small time breeder, and feeling so strongly about doing things the right way ... I decided that I will not breed from any of my girls if they test anything but clear. I just couldn't have it on my conscience knowing that they could possibly develop HCM down the line. I'd rather not take the risk. Even though this means I might not breed again, for a while at least.

So Rilly is booked in for spaying next Thursday  and her cheek swab will be done when we take her in too. That will be sent off first, if it comes back that she is Homozygous, then Tinks and Itty will also be spayed as it will mean that all 4 girls from this litter will be at least Heterozygous. If (and I am hoping this is the case) it comes back that she is Heterozygous, then we have a 50/50 chance with Tinks and Itty testing clear.

Please keep your fingers crossed for the results. I really hope I'm able to continue breeding, but if not ... well, 'Que sera sera'.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Aside from a purely selfish standpoint , it goes without saying hun that we have got everything crossed for you! Hopefully there will be many more gorgeous and adorable furbabes from you!


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Everything crossed here for you to x


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

keeping everything crossed for you Aurelia !!!!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Aside from a purely selfish standpoint , it goes without saying hun that we have got everything crossed for you! Hopefully there will be many more gorgeous and adorable furbabes from you!


 I know. I do hope that the little ones (although not so little anymore ... Tinks weighed in at just over 4kg last night ) have a chance of testing clear. Including Lila :001_wub:



Dally Banjo said:


> Everything crossed here for you to x


Thanks hun 

Edit: Thanks also Tje


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

oh no! ive not heard anything about hcm in the british?? 

did they do a swab or a scan? as i was told that swabs can only be done on maines / raggies, and bengals need to be scanned as no gene is known?

does that mean that they have 1 gene? i do know of someone breeding raggies, infact i know of 2  that their cats have 1 gene and they mate to a clear boy, i myself would neuter the girls, but there we go.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Fingers crossed! xxx


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> oh no! ive not heard anything about hcm in the british??
> 
> did they do a swab or a scan? as i was told that swabs can only be done on maines / raggies, and bengals need to be scanned as no gene is known?
> 
> does that mean that they have 1 gene? i do know of someone breeding raggies, infact i know of 2  that their cats have 1 gene and they mate to a clear boy, i myself would neuter the girls, but there we go.


Here you go TB LABOKLIN (UK)|Genetic Diseases | Cats| HCM 2 (Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy ) Mutation Koch (G--&gt A) A74T that's the test. Like I said it is relatively new test wise ... though I'm surprised you've not heard of HCM in BSH's?


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Fingers crossed here for you too and we hope you can continue to breed lovely BSH cats there.

Something i would like to say is, we all as breeders want to breed strong healthy kittens clear of any problems including these HCM genes, but we also have to remind ourselves that this HCM problem hasnt just fallen out of the sky upon us, who knows how long this problem has been around, please correct me if i am wrong but this HCM problem has only been brought into the limelight recently. Havent breeders been breeding litters over god knows how many years with this problem about without knowing about it.
Please dont anyone mis-understand my reply , i dont want to sound like i agree with breeding cats that have tested positive for HCM or any other genetic problem and i am all for eradicating this problem but could it be we are worrying a little too much. Again i hope it all works out ok for you, best wishes........CHRIS.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Fingers and paws crossed for you Aurelia. I do hope your 'babies' are clear


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Here you go TB LABOKLIN (UK)|Genetic Diseases | Cats| HCM 2 (Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy ) Mutation Koch (G--&gt A) A74T that's the test. Like I said it is relatively new test wise ... though I'm surprised you've not heard of HCM in BSH's?


really? well i havent, will look it up 



raggs said:


> Fingers crossed here for you too and we hope you can continue to breed lovely BSH cats there.
> 
> Something i would like to say is, we all as breeders want to breed strong healthy kittens clear of any problems including these HCM genes, but we also have to remind ourselves that this HCM problem hasnt just fallen out of the sky upon us, who knows how long this problem has been around, please correct me if i am wrong but this HCM problem has only been brought into the limelight recently. Havent breeders been breeding litters over god knows how many years with this problem about without knowing about it.
> Please dont anyone mis-understand my reply , i dont want to sound like i agree with breeding cats that have tested positive for HCM or any other genetic problem and i am all for eradicating this problem but could it be we are worrying a little too much. Again i hope it all works out ok for you, best wishes........CHRIS.


I agree! considering most breeders prob dont even health test for anything, hcm was only brought to my attention 2years ago, and most raggies breeders i speak to dont test, one breeder had been breeding for 7 years, never heard of it! all her cat are tested now lol


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

Oh  I am so sorry.

I have everything (including my toes) crossed for you.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

raggs said:


> Fingers crossed here for you too and we hope you can continue to breed lovely BSH cats there.
> 
> Something i would like to say is, we all as breeders want to breed strong healthy kittens clear of any problems including these HCM genes, but we also have to remind ourselves that this HCM problem hasnt just fallen out of the sky upon us, who knows how long this problem has been around, please correct me if i am wrong but this HCM problem has only been brought into the limelight recently. Havent breeders been breeding litters over god knows how many years with this problem about without knowing about it.
> Please dont anyone mis-understand my reply , i dont want to sound like i agree with breeding cats that have tested positive for HCM or any other genetic problem and i am all for eradicating this problem but could it be we are worrying a little too much. Again i hope it all works out ok for you, best wishes........CHRIS.


Hi Chris, thanks for the well wishes 

From what I understand the only form of 'testing' for HCM in BSH's has been the scanning. But as we know this is only really effective in identifying a cat that has developed HCM. So it can only really be effective in making sure you don't breed from a queen or stud that is currently suffering from HCM. It doesn't guarentee that those queens and studs will not pass the gene on, neither does it tell you if the cat being scanned has the gene or not.

So this new test is at least the start of more tests becoming available.

I know I am worrying a little too much (It's my nature to do so ), but I personally would rather not take any risks that I know of. So if tests become available for certain things I'll test and make a decision on the results. I guess that's all we can do.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Hi Chris, thanks for the well wishes
> 
> From what I understand the only form of 'testing' for HCM in BSH's has been the scanning. But as we know this is only really effective in identifying a cat that has developed HCM. So it can only really be effective in making sure you don't breed from a queen or stud that is currently suffering from HCM. It doesn't guarentee that those queens and studs will not pass the gene on, neither does it tell you if the cat being scanned has the gene or not.
> 
> ...


Its only natural that your going to worry and thats the difference between some one that breeds their cats for the LOVE of the breed and someone that breeds them for the money, they just wouldnt care, Your doing everything as it should be done and everyone is hoping you get the right results too...best wishes.........chris


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I'd get all the genetic tests done first, think who you neuter then. It's a new test and perhaps it is just possible that there has been an error, it's got to be worth double-checking before you do anything drastic.

I do hope it works out for you.

Liz


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Fingers crossed for you.I hope you get the results that you want. x


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

So sorry  Hope the tests go ok xx


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

I have the highest admiration for any breeder who does their utmost to ensure they only breed healthy cats so have everything crossed for you that it works out OK. I know a Bengal breeder who went through the same thing and now only breeds from tested negatvise cats, also a Persian breeder who did the same thing with PKD and "lost" almost all her breedintg stock at one point but she could not carry on with a clear conscience so she took the hard road, tested and neutered every positive cat. It took a while but she is now back breeding from good stock again.

Hope it all works out for you.

Carol


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Thanks for the support and well wishes everyone  All I can hope for is that Tinks or Itty (or both if I'm extremly lucky) have the possibility of testing clear.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

hope it all goes well x


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Thinking of you and your kitties and hoping for the best possible news *Hugs* x


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## MaryA (Oct 8, 2010)

What a desperate situation to find yourself in. You must feel your world is falling apart. I am so sorry and like everyone else hope that all goes well. Be absolutely certain of the accuracy of the tests and results in every way possible before you even begin to contemplate neutering.


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## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

Please Read Whole Post........

I think that any breeder who doesn't do what I do is a terrible breeder and should shut their cattery down and neuter everything - I am going to get a group of my friends to scare the living daylights out of everyone who cares deeply for their cats even though I know that this problem was most likely in my lines before I even knew about it! So there! Now who's with me??

Now who else thinks that if we tested humans before reproducing to the extent we test our cats that the human population would cease to exist?

Also, how many people have had children only to find out that an older generation is just about to die of cancer or an illness that no-one knew was in the family and it was genetic? If we knew everything that was likely to happen, we'd be scared into doing nothing.

HCM is a very bad heart condition and now that we know about it, we can do something about it but do you not think that being pressured into testing their cats like the section in blue above indicates (which is horribly happening everywhere) is the wrong way to encourage everyone to help erradicate this?

There are some things out there that are meant to be, if there is a natural heart condition that kills, we need to know why so that we can tackle it. Maybe it kills cats to sort the weak from the strong which means that in some cases we are messing with nature and also blaming eachother for something we have no control over.

I for one don't like the scanning which is as reliable as an MOT where your car could pass in the MOT station and break down on the way home. If this is congenital/genetic then there must be a test for all breeds (and HCM is present in ALL breeds) for all known types of HCM gene. Otherwise we are just wasting our money.

Just me thinking aloud and I scan my cats under protest only due to the unreliability of the scan and the uncertainty of the timescale it lasts for (1 day!) I'd be happier if I could pay once and sleep soundly at night that I will not find my precious cats dead in the morning because they have developed HCM within the scanning year.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Slave2Many said:


> HCM is a very bad heart condition and now that we know about it, we can do something about it but do you not think that being pressured into testing their cats like the section in blue above indicates (which is horribly happening everywhere) is the wrong way to encourage everyone to help erradicate this?


The sad and simple fact is, many breeders of cats/dogs will do nothing if not "pressurised" into testing. If testing is available it SHOULD be done. Breeders who refuse or shy away from it probably have something to hide or fear they have 

Just my thoughts


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## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> The sad and simple fact is, many breeders of cats/dogs will do nothing if not "pressurised" into testing. If testing is available it SHOULD be done. Breeders who refuse or shy away from it probably have something to hide or fear they have
> 
> Just my thoughts


This is true, however, there is the simple fact that I have 2 unsold older kittens here and not even an enquiry, let alone a sale and their pet price pays for the testing (I run a full circle breeding plan - what comes out goes straight back in) If only that theory worked


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

Slave2Many said:


> I think that any breeder who doesn't do what I do is a terrible breeder and should shut their cattery down and neuter everything - I am going to get a group of my friends to scare the living daylights out of everyone who cares deeply for their cats even though I know that this problem was most likely in my lines before I even knew about it! So there! Now who's with me??


That bit doesnt match the rest of your post. Whats this bit about? Or am I over tired?:scared:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Slave2Many said:


> This is true, however, there is the simple fact that I have 2 unsold older kittens here and not even an enquiry, let alone a sale and their pet price pays for the testing (I run a full circle breeding plan - what comes out goes straight back in) If only that theory worked


bengals arent selling, there are too many 'pretend' ones, moggies going for £150 as pretend bengals, crosses and back yard breeders, i reduced mine by £150 each then by another £100 for 2 to go together  lost so much money on that litter its unreal.

yet im so overwhelmed for my other kittens that i cant take any more enquirys, bengals = zero enquirys, so we never did the planned litter!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Slave2Many said:


> This is true, however, there is the simple fact that I have 2 unsold older kittens here and not even an enquiry, let alone a sale and their pet price pays for the testing (I run a full circle breeding plan - what comes out goes straight back in) If only that theory worked


Then maybe that is telling you something? If you are struggling to sell kittens, maybe better not to breed for awhile?

To be honest, I don't think you should be relying on kitten sales to pay for health testing 
My thoughts are that it might be wise to not breed again until you have funded these tests via other means ...


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> That bit doesnt match the rest of your post. Whats this bit about? Or am I over tired?:scared:


like an aeroplane... it went right over my head too SL :


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

Tje said:


> like an aeroplane... it went right over my head too SL :


I am not sure how to take it? :confused1:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I am not sure how to take it? :confused1:


me neither, lol, hopefully Slave2Many will take pity on us and explain.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Tje said:


> me neither, lol, hopefully Slave2Many will take pity on us and explain.


I initially thought she was quoting someone else 

But I couldn't see anything.


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## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Then maybe that is telling you something? If you are struggling to sell kittens, maybe better not to breed for awhile?
> 
> To be honest, I don't think you should be relying on kitten sales to pay for health testing
> My thoughts are that it might be wise to not breed again until you have funded these tests via other means ...


The point is, I am not relying on kitten sales for testing and vaccinations, it is coming out of my own pocket.

Also, I am not breeding to sell these kittens, I am breeding to advance and improve our breed which is what every good breeder should be doing. It is just nice if the kittens I do not (or cannot) keep back for breeding are sold to help to pay back their keep for 13 weeks. There is nothing wrong with my cats or kittens - I have only got 2 left for goodness sake with no enquiries and my stud is off somewhere else - do you think I am a kitten farm or something?? Go tell the BYB and people who think it is ok to sell cross breeds at cost price to stop breeding and let the people who invest their time, love and money get a break.

Sorry if it seems like I am going off on one, we have had a terrible year and I am getting a bit narked (want to swear here) at people who don't know me, telling me what I should and shouldn't be doing!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I initially thought she was quoting someone else
> 
> But I couldn't see anything.


makes notes.... the confused club now has 3 members


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I initially thought she was quoting someone else
> 
> But I couldn't see anything.


Maybe.......wish someone knew as its really confusing.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Slave2Many said:


> Sorry if it seems like I am going off on one, we have had a terrible year and I am getting a bit narked (want to swear here) at people who don't know me, telling me what I should and shouldn't be doing!


ok, someone send me a road map.... I am totally lost.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

im confused & lost *joins club*


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## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

Tje said:


> me neither, lol, hopefully Slave2Many will take pity on us and explain.


Sorry, the bit in blue is......how shall I put it.....hypothetical - read it with sarchasm and attitude, might help.

It is the impression I get from some other breeders out there who think it is ok to pressurise others into testing all of their cats when they don't do their own or if they do test for it, they don't care about the kittens who might be at risk of HCM before they knew....... hypocritical........

My train of thought is obviously not connecting to my fingers correctly today... :lol:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Slave2Many said:


> The point is, I am not relying on kitten sales for testing and vaccinations, it is coming out of my own pocket.
> 
> Also, I am not breeding to sell these kittens,


Sorry but this rather contradicts an earlier post on this thread where you say ~


"This is true, however, there is the simple fact that I have 2 unsold older kittens here and not even an enquiry, let alone a sale and their pet price pays for the testing..."

It reads to me that you have two kittens that you cannot sell, as you say "not even an enquiry"  You also go on to say that "their pet price pays for the testing" ...

You have me well confused now ... Which is it?


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## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Sorry but this rather contradicts an earlier post on this thread where you say ~
> 
> 
> "This is true, however, there is the simple fact that I have 2 unsold older kittens here and not even an enquiry, let alone a sale and their pet price pays for the testing..."
> ...


Damn fingers - pays me back for the testing and the vaccinations and the worming and the food and the electricity and the registration and the litter and the mums and dads upkeep etc...... just like everyone else, I will keep a kitten for as long as I need to but I am always happy to let them go to the right homes.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

Slave2Many said:


> Sorry, the bit in blue is......how shall I put it.....hypothetical - read it with sarchasm and attitude, might help.
> 
> It is the impression I get from some other breeders out there who think it is ok to pressurise others into testing all of their cats when they don't do their own or if they do test for it, they don't care about the kittens who might be at risk of HCM before they knew....... hypocritical........
> 
> My train of thought is obviously not connecting to my fingers correctly today... :lol:


Ahhh so its aimed at the OP? Thought it was like that but didnt know. Unless thats not what its like...

Didnt get much sleep and spent half the day in a hospital my brain isnt working.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Slave2Many said:


> Damn fingers -


Yes, they don't seem to be making much sense tonight


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Slave2Many said:


> Please Read Whole Post........
> 
> I think that any breeder who doesn't do what I do is a terrible breeder and should shut their cattery down and neuter everything - I am going to get a group of my friends to scare the living daylights out of everyone who cares deeply for their cats even though I know that this problem was most likely in my lines before I even knew about it! So there! Now who's with me??
> 
> ...


You say you breed to 'better the breed', so surely this also means doing everything possible to try and remove hereditary conditions in your lines? The only way to do that is by testing as and when tests become available.

I'd rather test and act on the results to prevent taking risks. I want to breed healthy cats, I don't want to worry that any kitten I home will be loved intensely, and then the cats owner is devastated years down the line when they wake to find their lovely cat dead. If I can prevent that I sure as hell will do what ever tests are available to try 

The natural selection argument to me is a cruel one. It's like saying it's acceptable for any living thing to suffer because it's meant to be.

I'm not sure why you typed the first part of your post. I hope you're not inferring that is why I posted what I have?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I want to breed healthy cats, I don't want to worry that any kitten I home will be loved intensely, and then the cats owner is devastated years down the line when they wake to find their lovely cat dead. If I can prevent that I sure as hell will do what ever tests are available to try
> 
> The natural selection argument to me is a cruel one. It's like saying it's acceptable for any living thing to suffer because it's meant to be.


Bless you, so many breeders don't think like you. Shame on them


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Bless you, so many breeders don't think like you. Shame on them


 But it's like this ... if that happened to one of my girls I would be completely devastated. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, so if I can prevent it I will try.

I think we would all love our cats to live into their 20's, the only way we can work towards that being the norm is by removing as many obsticles as possible.

These are only my personal views though, and how I intend to do things. I'm not forcing it on anyone else, or demanding they stop breeding if they don't do it the same way.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> But it's like this ... if that happened to one of my girls I would be completely devastated. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, so if I can prevent it I will try.
> 
> I think we would all love our cats to live into their 20's, the only way we can work towards that being the norm is by removing as many obsticles as possible.
> 
> These are only my personal views though, and how I intend to do things. I'm not forcing it on anyone else, or demanding they stop breeding if they don't do it the same way.


Well I hope you are able to continue breeding cats if you so wish. Personally I believe we need the REALLY good breeders to highlight how poor some really are. That goes for dog breeding too :thumbsup:

I lost a dog, younger than I imagined due to a health issue, a problem in this breed, certainly some lines, though some if not most breeders seem to be in denial about, so no testing yet


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I hope everything turns out the best it can. But I admire your honesty and determination to better your breed. "Im keeping everything crossed for you"


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Got everything crossed for you Jo, remember I need one of Itty's babies in a couple of years!


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi Aurelia,

I am so sorry to hear this news,I hope the rest of the testing goes well for you. I hope you get the results you need and can continue with your breeding,as you are a very ethical breeder who gets my full respect. 

I despise breeders who brag about show results etc but don't bother with the testing for such conditions as HCM etc.It is a breeders responsibility to ensure the health as much as its in their power to do so.Those who just shy away from tests should not be breeding in my opinion.

Best of luck Aurelia!

Izzie


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> You say you breed to 'better the breed', so surely this also means doing everything possible to try and remove hereditary conditions in your lines? The only way to do that is by testing as and when tests become available.
> 
> I'd rather test and act on the results to prevent taking risks. I want to breed healthy cats, I don't want to worry that any kitten I home will be loved intensely, and then the cats owner is devastated years down the line when they wake to find their lovely cat dead. If I can prevent that I sure as hell will do what ever tests are available to try
> 
> ...


I really wish more breeders thought like you!!

sorry im new to cats, but i have been rescuing small animals for years (once they are here they stay here) and have seen so so many die from devastating genetic conditions, they should never have been brought into this world, and the more people that pay attention to what they breed and take responsibility for any genetic conditions they "could" create, the better.

if the tests are there, then i think they should be done, if all breeders did these tests, and took positive cats out of breeding, then surely the occurrences of the conditions you can test for could be drastically minimised

you have my full respect for your ethics hun, and on that note im going to crawl back under my rock, sorry i couldn't just read and run

i have everything crossed for you hun.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

how come you didnt have mum tested Before breeding her if you do health testing? then you would know if she had it, she could have been spayed and saved the kittens being ill?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

babybelle said:


> how come you didnt have mum tested Before breeding her if you do health testing? then you would know if she had it, she could have been spayed and saved the kittens being ill?


I think this question is un called for we all make mistakes but at least Aureila is doing something about it and has had the guts to admit her findings online many breeders are NOT honest!


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

babybelle said:


> how come you didnt have mum tested Before breeding her if you do health testing? then you would know if she had it, she could have been spayed and saved the kittens being ill?


she has already said the test in itself is new, my guess it has only just become availiable recently, after she bred that litter, and she is now taking the steps to test before she breeds any more


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

i was only asking as she is into health testing
your right alot of breeders are terrible even the top ones that show, out girl died from one recently, was terrible, retired most of our cats after that.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

babybelle said:


> how come you didnt have mum tested Before breeding her if you do health testing? then you would know if she had it, she could have been spayed and saved the kittens being ill?


if the newer DNA (gene) test didn't exist when she bred her queen, how could she have used it?

I am assuming the best testing available at that time was used.

technology progresses.

what we can't test for today, we may be able to test for next month.

what we can't RELIABLY test for today, we may be able to reliably test for next month.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

babybelle said:


> how come you didnt have mum tested Before breeding her if you do health testing? then you would know if she had it, she could have been spayed and saved the kittens being ill?


The test wasn't available then  It's a new test.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Thanks for the sweet posts folks. It's nice to know I've got some support and lots more fingers crossed.

I think Rilly knows what's coming on Thursday bless her  But, she gave _me_ 4 beautiful girls and I get to love and cherish 2 of them, while the other two share their affections with two other fab owners (ain't that right Hobbs? ) :001_wub:. I'll just continue to hope that even if they do test positive the dreaded HCM never catches up with any of them.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

awww bless her i hope she will be ok.


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

Hi everyone,

Sorry Aurelia for the predicament you find yourself in.

I have a purely academic question (I am not a breeder and do not intend to breed cats ever, although I have bred exotics in the past and have an interest in the subject of breeding healthy stock).

I know what HCM is so I don't need that part explaining. However, at what age do cats suffering from this disease become asymptomatic? I guess this also depends on whether they have one or two copies of the gene? So, what is the impact of this disease? 

As this test is so new, I am also supposing that the condition has been bred into the variety in the first place. If it hadn't then there wouldn't be enough healthy stock to perpetuate the species. Again this is an assumption based on natural selection.

If natural selection does not take a part in this variety and it is purely man made for our entertainment/desire, then it is inevitable that the breeding that had taken place to create the breed standard has had nothing to do with health until a test the determine that has been discovered. Breeding has been selected on looks alone.

As genetic tests progress, the gene pool will get smaller and smaller as the available resources to breed from are eliminated as each genetic flaw is discovered and the concentration of individuals means breeding is virtually impossible.

Without sounding dramatic this sounds like man made "natural selection" and the disappearance of the species. Like eugenics but without Hitler.

Maybe the species shouldn't exist in the first place? If it has no purpose on the planet.

If we want to play god we must accept these one copy genes and look to the long term future and widen the pool as much as possible.

Or, give up and leave natural selection to itself - yes it may bring heartache but the strongest will survive. No Ragdolls probably - but were Ragdolls a natural product of evolution? Ok, some may say your moggy isn't either, but it's a far tougher breed of animal and has been around a lot longer with no genetic testing needed - just the strongest surviving. It's only the technological age that has meant we need rescue societies. Moggies used to be valuable commodities for catching mice and rats. 

Disclaimer: I probably have a few rogue genes myself but fortunately no one has told me I'm not to breed. Some people may recommend it


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Pardalis said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Sorry Aurelia for the predicament you find yourself in.
> 
> ...


From what I understand it can become asymptomatic at any age, but mostly about the age of 2-3. I hope someone can correct me if this info is wrong.

Being Homozygous means they have 2 copies of the gene, these are the one at the greatest risk of developing HCM

Being heterozygous means they are still at a higher risk of developing HCM (than a cat without the gene) but not quite so high as those that are Homozygous.

However, not all cats that are either **** or Hetero will develop HCM, and in fact I suspect the percentages are quite low. But without BSH breeders testing in great numbers there is no way to be sure of the figures.

Another fact is that even cats who test clear for the gene can also develop HCM. This is because I don't think every gene responsible for HCM has been identified in any breed. Testing in any breed is a preventative measure. It's by no means fool proof, just narrows down the possibilities. The more gene they identify, the more tests they can develop ... less chance of a cat becoming asymptomatic.



Pardalis said:


> As this test is so new, I am also supposing that the condition has been bred into the variety in the first place. If it hadn't then there wouldn't be enough healthy stock to perpetuate the species. Again this is an assumption based on natural selection.
> 
> If natural selection does not take a part in this variety and it is purely man made for our entertainment/desire, then it is inevitable that the breeding that had taken place to create the breed standard has had nothing to do with health until a test the determine that has been discovered. Breeding has been selected on looks alone.
> 
> ...


The BSH gene pool is so large that there is absolutely no need for concern about that at this stage *IMO* (worrying about the gene pool shrinking because of selective breeding of clear cats that is).

Plus if it did become a problem, it would become commonplace to breed heterozygous to clear. Each offspring would then have a 50/50 chance of testing clear. The breeders would then spay those that test positive, and only breed clear to clear ... This would continue until the gene pool was once again vast. Then I'm sure it would no longer be acceptable to breed any cat that tests Hetero or Homozygous positive.

Your paragraph about moggies being a tougher 'breed'...

Well first of all a Moggie is not a breed in itself. It's a cat of mixed breed. This could be any number of breeds thrown into the mix. With that comes all the breed specific health problems. There is NO proof that moggies are tougher or healthier. In fact I would go as far as to say I personally believe the opposite, given what I said about all the different breeds that go into the title of 'moggie'. If all those breeds pool together, so do all their health problems.

Just because you don't hear so much about health problems with moggies does not mean they don't exist. It is much more likely that it means there are far more moggies about than pedigrees. Unfortunately this also means that much more owners that don't seek medical help for their cat if it gets sick. So it dies, and is buried without a vet even seeing it**. So it would be very tough to get accurate figures of what conditions moggies suffer to give even an estimate of if they are healthier or not.

** I'm in no way insinuating all moggie owners care less about their cats. But it's not unreasonable to think some moggie owners see their cats as disposable as they are cheap to replace. Usually these owners are the type that hardly ever even see their cat as it's out most of the day and night. So they probably don't bond and learn to love their cat like others. Of course I know that there will also be some pedigree owners who treat their cats the same, but less than those 'types' of moggie owners.

It's late and I'm very tired, so I may have not come across as clearly as I want to. So this is me reserving the right to edit it post lately today, or backpedal if needed :lol:


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

Don't worry about back pedalling - I think you have it spot on about some people thinking that a moggie is disposable because it's easier/cheaper to replace. But those people are despicable anyway and give them more money and they might do the same with a cute pedigree. Stats are that there are more moggies in existence so there are more needing homes. 

My first moggie cost me £170 seven years ago because in my area none were being born due to extensive neutering programmes. My god, I love him so much that I wouldn't have it any other way.

What would be a fab idea is that there is some collaboration and open minded thinking (and some major effort) amongst all the pedigree breeders as these tests for newly recognised conditions become available. 
And some huge commitment from those who want to be pet owners of a breed they truly love who will look after the offspring. 

I guess it may be quite scientific too but instead of hastily neutering every single gene carrier; a programme of careful breeding could perpetuate the breed without inbreeding other problems that aren't known yet therefore create a bigger gene pool.

It could be the case that the only clear carriers of a breed are too closely related. Which equals more problems that haven't been diagnosed as genetic yet.

It will equal breed destruction eventually.

Without this kind of thinking, in some breeds the gene pool will be reduced and will cause further problems. And the backyard breeders will flourish and no one will be4 able to say what breed of cat is around!

Ok, so who wants to start the mountainous task of creating this database?!!

Lol, I suppose as I've gone on about it I should put my money where my mouth is!!!! 

Hmmmm!


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Well first of all a Moggie is not a breed in itself. It's a cat of mixed breed. This could be any number of breeds thrown into the mix. With that comes all the breed specific health problems. There is NO proof that moggies are tougher or healthier. In fact I would go as far as to say I personally believe the opposite, given what I said about all the different breeds that go into the title of 'moggie'. If all those breeds pool together, so do all their health problems.
> :


I think the thing about moggies health is that the gene pool is so much bigger therefore the chances of a moggie being afflicted by a genetic problem is far less than a pedigree. Many genetic diseases are recessive in nature and are only symptomatic if there are two affected copies of the gene. If a particular breed is know to be affected by a certain disease then obviously the chances of two copies coming together are higher when mating within that breed. Because the moggie gene pool is so diverse the chances of 2 mutant gene copies coming together are far less.

It's like humans mating with family members, bar the morality issues the biggest thing is that being related you share more DNA so each of us has specific DNA mutations which are passed on from our parents, if you 'mate' with a sibling for example the chances are high that they also carry the same mutations so when they come together in your offspring the disease is evident but the parents are unaffected.

Sorry if everyone already knows all this, I've got a degree in genetics and can't help myself from waffling on


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

I forgot to add Aurelia, I really hope all turns out well with your kitties tests, I have everything crossed for you xx


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

ClaireLily said:


> Sorry if everyone already knows all this, I've got a degree in genetics and can't help myself from waffling on


Interesting stuff, I'm sure you'll be a valuable source of information! Thank you for sharing :thumbsup:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't believe this  

I just called the lab to ask if someone would be there tomorrow to receive Rilly's sample to test... I was told they have stopped doing the test :scared:

WTF :scared: Will update when I know more.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> I don't believe this
> 
> I just called the lab to ask if someone would be there tomorrow to receive Rilly's sample to test... I was told they have stopped doing the test :scared:
> 
> WTF :scared: Will update when I know more.


Which company's that?
:confused1:

Surely they would inform people correctly.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> I don't believe this
> 
> I just called the lab to ask if someone would be there tomorrow to receive Rilly's sample to test... I was told they have stopped doing the test :scared:
> 
> WTF :scared: Will update when I know more.


Oh NO i hope they haven't! that must be so guttering!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I don't believe this
> 
> I just called the lab to ask if someone would be there tomorrow to receive Rilly's sample to test... I was told they have stopped doing the test :scared:
> 
> WTF :scared: Will update when I know more.


oh dear........... please don't tell me my "I hear too often the labs doing these tests are less than ethical" prophecy has come true. :


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

No actually hun. It appears certain people have been putting pressure on them to withdraw the test  They of course won't say who though.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> No actually hun. It appears certain people have been putting pressure on them to withdraw the test  They of course won't say who though.


how/who./why can put pressure on a placeto withdraw a test???


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> No actually hun. It appears certain people have been putting pressure on them to withdraw the test  They of course won't say who though.


maybe people have been putting pressure on them to withdraw after what has been disocvered on the continent with the tests???? If what I have heard/read of these tests, well if even half of it is true, unethical is the nice word to describe their practices.

But anywayyy, where does this leave you now with Itty & Tinks????

:frown:


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