# raw meat????????



## michellenroxy (Nov 20, 2009)

Hiya i have a dogue de bordeaux ,she is now 6 month old,i have been feeding her on dry food mixed with a little meat,but she dont seem to keen on it and is sometimes sick,she looks like she has lost a bit of weight,so today i went to the butchers and got some raw mince,and 2 big marrow bones,before i give her the raw mince i just want to make sure it is safe,or should i boil it,please help,thanks in advance xxxxxxx


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

Raw meat is good for your dog, I've been feeding my dogs raw meat for the last 10 years. If it isn't already frozen I'd freeze it first, then defrost it before you feed it.


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

sounds fine to me, hope she enjoys it. all my girls are on raw.


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## michellenroxy (Nov 20, 2009)

so i dont need to boil the mince meat then,thanks for answering my question xxx:thumbup1:


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

why you feeding raw meat? whats wrong with normal dog food? If she doesnt like it and it makes her sick- give her something else...


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## michellenroxy (Nov 20, 2009)

hi ,i ahve been feeding her normal dry food with tinned meat,but what ever dry food i try she just sticks her nose up at it,she was on pedagree complete but kept on being sick from it,so thought i would give the raw diet a try,anyhow i have just give her the raw mince and so far so good she is eating it and seems to love it,will keep u informed how she goes on,michelle


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

i feed all my collies raw also my best friend who is on this forum (Liteskye) she breeds and shows dogues and all hers are fed raw


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

feeding raw is fine but u do need to have a good idea what u r doing.
To give a dog that breed/age a meal high in protien as raw mince is can cause growing pains.
Its fine as a one off but get a decent diet and try and stick to it.
chopping and changing is not only bad for the guts but can also make them fussy so it can end up a real battle when it comes to feeding time.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

if she is being sick i would worry about bacteria in raw meat causing problems


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## Michelle666 (Jun 12, 2008)

Hi, I have a DDB aswell Sadie...she is 6 months old too!! 
She have a raw food diet. I usually buy the prosen Prize Choice blocks. She also has fresh heart, liver, kidneys and chicken wings. We've never had a problem with it, she absolutly loves it!

Also would love to see a piccie of your pup??!!!


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## Michelle666 (Jun 12, 2008)

mollythecollie said:


> if she is being sick i would worry about bacteria in raw meat causing problems


Bacteria is raw meat desn't affect animals like us humans. A dog is a meat eatter, and if living in the wild would hunt animals to feed from.

I feel cans are full of rubbish with preservs and addidtives etc. I wouldn't eat things like that, so I don't think my dog should either.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Michelle666 said:


> Bacteria is raw meat desn't affect animals like us humans. A dog is a meat eatter, and if living in the wild would hunt animals to feed from.
> 
> I feel cans are full of rubbish with preservs and addidtives etc. I wouldn't eat things like that, so I don't think my dog should either.


Humans are meat eater too!

Raw food diets aren't balanced, and lead to nutritional problems


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Humans are meat eater too!
> 
> Raw food diets aren't balanced, and lead to nutritional problems


Sorry have to disagree on that one.
I know many raw feeders and also choose this way to feed my own dog.
Done correctly it is probs the healthiest way to feed.
I see many a dog with health problems due to bad diet and all of those are fed comercial food.
We as humans are omnivores and cook our meat a dog if in the wild would prob scavenge so have a very varied diet of raw and rotton food.
Their nutritional requirement is different to us and therefore the way we feed is different u cannot compare them to a human.
Raw feeders tend to freeze and defrost all meat as this kills any of the real nasty bugs...balancing is usually done over days rather than per meal.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Humans are meat eater too!
> 
> Raw food diets aren't balanced, and lead to nutritional problems


Nonsense!  I've been raw feeding my working dogs for years and they're gleaming. Until this month I hadn't bought any commercial junk food in about 10 years LOL

Raw diets are the food dogs are designed to eat, so of course it's good for them. "Balanced" is a bit of a pet food company myth, it has no bearing on real food. For example, is every meal you eat (or give to your child) "100% complete and balanced", or do you just feed a variety of foods and let nature find its balance over time, like everyone else? 

Why do you view dogs any differently? The answer likely lies in years of pet food manufacturers' propaganda. Raw food is the best thing to feed a dog, cat or ferret. Crunching up raw meaty bones (not marrow bones) is excellent for the teeth.

Commercial food on the other hand builds up in the oral cavity facilitating the development of periodontal disease. The grains (an unnatural food for dogs) lead to insulin spikes and an overworked pancreas which has to push out amylase and other such enzymes to digest the unnatural starches and sugars. This often leads to pancreatitis and diabetes.

In short, there's nothing natural or correct about feeding grains and dehydrated biscuits. But for some reason the public has managed to believe that in the few short years since commercial manufacturers have been producing biscuits and other stuff, they offer the "only" way to properly feed a dog. It's all nonsense. :thumbup1:

To the OP, I'm very glad your DDB enjoys raw food. Just be careful not to stick to mince only as it's high in phosphorous and low in calcium. Bones are the calcium required, but marrow bones are a no-no. Yes I know they're popular but they are too large and heavy, even for big breeds. They are the perfect size and shape - especially if sawn by the butcher - to act as a lever to snap the teeth!

The only golden rule you need to remember with raw feeding is variety - and in what you DO feed, make sure it's pieces of raw MEATY bone as whole as possible (i.e. looks as much like the animal it came from as much as possible). That means, a whole rabbit is better than half a chicken, which is better than a rack of ribs alone, which is better than just mince etc.

Apart from that, go nuts and experiment.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Sounds like a lot of people are keen on it...
Whats your reasoning against cooking the meat? Then youv killed any bacteria or parasites.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

A lot of people feeding raw also include fruit and vegetables to balance the diet.

I'm fairly new to it, but my dogs get raw meat and tripe, chicken wings/carcasses and tripe strips and occasionally pilchards in tomato sauce. Nimrod (who we lost recently) had a skin allergy, but once we changed to raw she improved drastically. Our other dogs have great coats and energy. I love it! 

Chicken should never be cooked as the bones splinter.


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## Michelle666 (Jun 12, 2008)

mollythecollie said:


> Humans are meat eater too!
> 
> Raw food diets aren't balanced, and lead to nutritional problems


Sorry was half asleep when I wrote that. Basically Im saying if we ate raw meat we would be ill, when a dog eats raw meat it doesn't affect them. Yes we are Meat eatters, but Dogs in the wild are purely meat eatters and raw meat at that. We don't have to be a meat eatter.

Ive seen a DDB on a tinned food diet and a DDB on a raw meat diet... I bought my pup from the raw meat diet dog, the difference in bitches was amazing. The Bitches coat was gleeming, teeth were pearly white and nice smelling breath (if that can happen), and general look of dog was definatly better!


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

dogs and humans are actually omnivores, both are designed to scavenge and eat whatever they can find. 

my Gypsy was such a fussy eater as a pup she was probably about a year and a bit when we changed to raw and now she eats everything. 

mu youngest pup Echo is now a year and was on raw from the day after we got her at 8 weeks. 

all my girls get there meet bones carcases frozen they seem to prefer them like that. 

the proteins in dry dog foods are for the most part artificially made or or possessed, 
proteins in raw is as it is nothing has been done to it. 

i have seen no ill effect in my girls, their poos are smaller so i know that they are getting more from there food as they are producing less wast.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

I feed Mika on raw meat. Dante doesn't like it raw - he turns his nose up at it - think its the smell - silly boy - lol so in the microwave for him it goes to be cooked for 1 minute lol

So yeah nothing wrong with giving a dog raw meat IMO. How else do you suppose wild animals survived?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Mine gets Raw meat with steamed veg and fruit and this has been great for her skin allergies
Today she is having Ox liver with steamed carrots,broccoli and turnip. odd times she will also have cooked potatoe in with it, she is often having a better tea that i do..i dont do the chicken wings though, i did try her on them but she would not chew them up enough and a few hours later she would bring up the whole bones
It's a brilliant way to feed your dog

juliex


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

ad_1980 said:


> I feed Mika on raw meat. Dante doesn't like it raw - he turns his nose up at it - think its the smell - silly boy - lol so in the microwave for him it goes to be cooked for 1 minute lol
> 
> So yeah nothing wrong with giving a dog raw meat IMO. How else do you suppose wild animals survived?


 im just asking for the reasons as to why you think cooking the meat is worse than not cooking it? 
I suppose cavemen ate raw meat too, but i dont fancy any for my dinner tonight


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> im just asking for the reasons as to why you think cooking the meat is worse than not cooking it?
> I suppose cavemen ate raw meat too, but i dont fancy any for my dinner tonight


their are humans today who survive on raw foods including meet. but they have to build up and imunity to it over time so their gut gets used to it.

when you cook food you distort the natural protiens in it, so its better for them to eat it in its natural form un cooked.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

kendal said:


> their are humans today who survive on raw foods including meet. but they have to build up and imunity to it over time so their gut gets used to it.
> 
> when you cook food you distort the natural protiens in it, so its better for them to eat it in its natural form un cooked.


ah ok thank you!

I cant find any scientific proof of this, but lots of people seem to find a benefit in it


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

kendal said:


> dogs and humans are actually omnivores, both are designed to scavenge and eat whatever they can find.





mollythecollie said:


> im just asking for the reasons as to why you think cooking the meat is worse than not cooking it?
> I suppose cavemen ate raw meat too, but i dont fancy any for my dinner tonight


The differences are many. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores. Only pet food companies, and some vets (who are trained by the pet food companies at vet school!) will tell you otherwise. The entire scientific community, and anyone with even basic knowledge of anatomy and physiology, will tell you that dogs are clearly carnivores.

As such they are designed to eat and digest raw skin, meat, bone and offal. *Not* cooked meat, not grains, not fruit, veg, herbs, nuts or seeds. It's that simple. 

Cooking foods alters the amino acids and fats quite significantly. Think of a hamburger. It starts out as a nice red/pink mass with white marbled fat. Once you cook it the texture and colour change dramatically, and the once 'pure' white fat is now oily GREASE. Big difference.

That's all very well if you're an omnivore, though still debatable as scientists today will happily attribute a majority of human health complaints and diseases to a cooked diet, especially a processed one. For a carnivore, it's disastrous!

Kendal, although you feed raw and therefore clearly know the benefits (i.e. I'm not 'telling you off' lol), I just wanted to point out that dogs are scavengers only in the sense they will happily consume a carcass if they find it - as opposed to only eating what they kill. Wild dogs and wolves do NOT eat grain, fruits or vegetables in any real quantity. They might pick on the odd fruit as they pass it once a year, but they certainly don't go scavenging in fruit orchards and wheat fields in preference to a kill.

Physiologically and energetically, making a hunt and kill is incredibly demanding, in terms of calorific cost as well as having a potential for harm (injury or death at the hands of big prey). Do people honestly think they would hunt such dangerous animals, at such risk, if they were also adapted and designed to munch helpless berries and grains? 

Domestic dogs are nothing more than visually (NOT internally) altered Grey Wolves. This is conclusively proven scientifically (I've posted the paper up a few times here now), and the fact remains that Grey Wolves, and dogs, are carnivores with no adaptation for cooked foods or grains and vegetable matter. In fact all prevailing evidence is that feeding a carnivore such as a dog (or cat, or ferret) on cooked foods, especially those containing grains and vegetable matter, is a recipe for disease, pain and early death.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> ah ok thank you!
> 
> I cant find any scientific proof of this, but lots of people seem to find a benefit in it


The book "Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health" is a thesis of around 400 pages of 100% peer reviewed, heavily scientifically referenced evidence about exactly this. 

Don't forget that unlike humans, dogs have a stomach acid pH of around 1. That's INCREDIBLY acidic. Things like meat-borne bacteria that could give you or I a nasty dose of sickness are insignificant and inconsequential to a dog. :thumbup1:


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

its not for everyone and not every dog likes it, but i have seen inprovments in dogs on it. 

fat dog slim down
slom dogs go up to a healthy waight 
dogs with sckin condidtions have a marked improvment, i know someone whos mums dog is on steroids for her skin they put ther on raw for 6 weeks and within 4 he stopped itching and his coate cleared up, but they are clean freeks and stoped it as they didnt like the blood and the bones. so he is back on the steroids poor boy.


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

dogs are scovongers so they need to be able to digest just about any kind of edable food,hense why they are omnivores.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

kendal said:


> but they are clean freeks and stoped it as they didnt like the blood and the bones. so he is back on the steroids poor boy.




I know saying such things won't make me very popular, but it's my view that if you want to keep a carnivore you either feed it properly and keep it healthy, or you don't keep it at all. Why on earth would you feed a food that is clearly SO inappropriate for your pet that it requires drugs (which any vet will tell you further damages the health) to even get through a day without unbearable itching, burning and so on? It's not that hard to feed a raw meaty bone in a crate or outside where they can't make any mess. Hell you can even feed them FROZEN (zero mess!) if you need to. :\


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

kendal said:


> dogs are scovongers so they need to be able to digest just about any kind of edable food,hense why they are omnivores.


No, dogs have carnassial teeth (only carnivores have these), no molars for grinding, their jaws can't move side-to-side like an omnivores (hence no grain or veggie eating) and they have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon with an undeveloped caecum. Vegetable matter doesn't even stay in there long enough to BE digested, hence offers zero nutritional benefit. Why do you think veggies and fruits have to be mashed up, blended and/or cooked to be of any benefit at all? Who cooks and blends the wild dogs' and wolves' veggies for them, since they can't digest it without?

Your statement clearly falls apart under a a little pressure, as it's at total odds with the physiology, anatomy and dentition of the animal you're allocating those abilities to.


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> I know saying such things won't make me very popular, but it's my view that if you want to keep a carnivore you either feed it properly and keep it healthy, or you don't keep it at all. Why on earth would you feed a food that is clearly SO inappropriate for your pet that it requires drugs (which any vet will tell you further damages the health) to even get through a day without unbearable itching, burning and so on? It's not that hard to feed a raw meaty bone in a crate or outside where they can't make any mess. Hell you can even feed them FROZEN (zero mess!) if you need to. :\


i know, its my frinds OH pairents they are just not listening they are an older couple so i think they are stuck in their ways, also i think the vets werent to keen on the dog being fed on raw, so that might have been what put them off it.

mine get everything frozen


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> No, dogs have a short smooth-walled intestine with an undeveloped caecum. Vegetable matter doesn't even stay in there long enough to BE digested, hence offers zero nutritional benefit. Why do you think veggies and fruits have to be mashed up, blended and/or cooked to be of any benefit at all? Who cooks and blends the wild dogs' and wolves' veggies for them, since they can't digest it without?
> 
> Your statement clearly falls apart under a a little pressure, as it's at total odds with the physiology, anatomy and dentition of the animal you're allocating those abilities to.


Dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet. They might be carnivores, but they arent obligate carnivores and are very adaptable.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

kendal said:


> i think the vets werent to keen on the dog being fed on raw, so that might have been what put them off it.


So the vets, who make a fortune selling commercial foods, have advised not to feed a raw diet which obliterates the need for expensive repeat prescriptions of drugs.

Call me cynical, but...


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet. They might be carnivores, but they arent obligate carnivores and are very adaptable.


On a COOKED and RENDERED vegetarian diet. That's not what we were discussing anyway. The point is dogs can't digest unprocessed vegetable matter as their anatomy and physiology prevents it. That categorically prevents the dog being classed as omnivorous.

The domestic dog, _Canis lupus familiaris_, is scientifcally classified as a carnivore. That's not ME saying it, it's the scientific community. So why would you insist they're omnivores? Your first post said they're omnivores, the second one (quoted here above) says they're carnivores but still goes on to say they can be vegetarian. Even your own two posts don't agree with each other.

If I cooked and ground up some corn and put it in a mousey smelling sausage skin, my snakes would eat it. They'd even survive for a while. Doesn't make them omnivores! 

Even considering the fact some dogs are forced to live off a vegetarian diet, that doesn't mean the dogs are healthy. The literature clearly demonstrates that dogs fed on carbohydrate - never mind as 100% of a 'vegetarian' diet - suffer from issues as widely ranging as periodontal disease to autoimmune disease, pancreatitis, diabetes and cancer. I feel sorry for any dog forced to eat such a concoction.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> So the vets, who make a fortune selling commercial foods, have advised not to feed a raw diet which obliterates the need for expensive repeat prescriptions of drugs.
> 
> Call me cynical, but...


Nope, i think more the fact that research by AVMA has shown that dogs on raw food diets are more likely to suffer from from nutritional deficiencies.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> On a COOKED and RENDERED vegetarian diet. That's not what we were discussing anyway. The point is dogs can't digest unprocessed vegetable matter as their anatomy and physiology prevents it. That categorically prevents the dog being classed as omnivorous.
> 
> If I cooked and ground up some corn and put it in a mousey smelling sausage skin, my snakes would eat it. They'd even survive for a while. Doesn't make them omnivores!
> 
> Even considering the fact some dogs are forced to live off a vegetarian diet, that doesn't mean the dogs are healthy. The literature clearly demonstrates that dogs fed on carbohydrate - never mind as 100% of a 'vegetarian' diet - suffer from issues as widely ranging as periodontal disease to autoimmune disease, pancreatitis, diabetes and cancer. I feel sorry for any dog forced to eat such a concoction.


So what about their anatomy prevents them digesting veges?


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Nope, i think more the fact that research by AVMA has shown that dogs on raw food diets are more likely to suffer from from nutritional deficiencies.


Research by a body of people trained by pet food manufacturers, sponsored by them, and who make a good percentage of their living recommending and selling their foods?

What did they consider a 'raw diet' in their methodology? How was the study carried out? Do you have a reference for it, or a copy of the paper, so that I can read it? Dr Tom Lonsdale has ripped such papers to shreds if you care to read his rebuttals.

Independent research, and there is a great deal of it, completely disagrees. It is not hard to feed a balanced raw diet. A dog fed nothing but whole raw carcases would live a long and healthy life with zero nutritional deficiency, as that's what it is designed to eat.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

i used to feed my american cocker a commercial pet food diet,most of which he turned his nose up at after a few day,so i decided to put him on a raw feed diet,which is what he was fed at his breeders.
His skin is much clearer,poos better and he clears his bowl every day.
Raw feeding is much more natural,not full of additives.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> So what about their anatomy prevents them digesting veges?


I listed some of them in my previous posts. The presence of carnassial teeth and lack of molars. The complete inability to move the jaw laterally to grind vegetable and grain matter so that it can be opened for access to the stomach acids. The relatively short foregut. The short, smooth unsacculated colon. The undeveloped caecum.

Herbivores and omnivores have all of the features that carnivores (including dogs) lack. Vegetables need time to sit and ferment (including grasses etc). Only omnivores and herbivores have the necessary intestinal layout for this. A carnivore's intestines are too short, and move too quickly for this to occur. That's why dogs will poo out lumps of whatever raw veg you put in the other end, and it's why commercial manufacturers have to include "slowing" matter (eg beet pulp) to their foods to FORCE it to sit around long enough to be partially digested.

This is a simple matter of scientific record, not one man's ramblings. Feed your dog some raw carrots and potatoes and so on, and see what comes out the other end. I guarantee the dog will be dead of malnutrition in short order if that's all he's fed. Dogs simply can't digest them.

Further, dogs lack ANY enzymes in their saliva to break down starch or carbohydrates. ALL omnivores and herbivores possess them however. A dog fed cooked and rendered (for that's the only way they can access them) veggie and grain matter will be forced to produce amylase and other enzymes in their pancreas, the over work of which leads to pancreatitis and diabetes (dogs aren't designed for the "insulin spikes" feeding carbs produces).


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> I listed some of them in my previous posts. The presence of carnassial teeth and lack of molars. The complete inability to move the jaw laterally to grind vegetable and grain matter so that it can be opened for access to the stomach acids. The relatively short foregut. The short, smooth unsacculated colon. The undeveloped caecum.
> 
> Herbivores and omnivores have all of the features that carnivores (including dogs) lack. This is a simple matter of scientific record, not one man's ramblings. Feed your dog some raw carrots and potatoes and so on, and see what comes out the other end. I guarantee the dog will be dead of malnutrition in short order if that's all he's fed. Dogs simply can't digest them.


Dogs have molars- so why do these raw diets have raw veg included in them?


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Dogs have molars-


Sorry, I should have elaborated to make it sufficiently clear, but I thought it was fairly obvious what I meant. Dogs don't have FLATTENED molars which can be used to grind up vegetable matter and grains. ALL their teeth are sharp and solely designed to catch, hold, and tear up a carcass. None of their teeth are designed for crunching up grains or vegetable matter. Whether they have molars or not, the shape precludes them being of the omnivorous type.

That still leaves unanswered questions about the carnassial teeth, short foregut, smooth unsacculated colon, undeveloped caecum...



> so why do these raw diets have raw veg included in them?


Good question. I don't feed veggies at all, nor do any of the raw feeders I associate with. The whole 'fruit and veggies' concoctions were started by Ian Billinghurst when he broke away from the Raw Meaty Bones Lobby in Australia in the 90s. The Lobby consists of a group of vets who agreed dogs should not be fed commercial grain based foods for health reasons.

He decided to break away from the Lobby, which promoted whole cuts of raw meaty bones and whole carcases, so that he could set up a company selling pre-ground mushed "patties" containing meat and (cheaper) veggies and fruits etc. He saw a gap in the market I guess.

The original lobbyists, and many raw feeders, stick to nature's design and don't feed fruit and/or veg at all.


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## Michelle666 (Jun 12, 2008)

I have to say Rainmaker, I have really enjoyed reading your posts and have learnt a great deal about dogs and what they should be eatting.
I agree that veggies are not needed in a dogs diet. I feed totally raw food and my Sadie looks great for it. My vet praised me for feeding raw and was saying she wan't to encourage more people to feed their dogs (and cats) this diet. Giving preservs, additives and colourings etc is just as bad for them as it is for us!!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I fed my dogs raw and they thrived, although at the moment they are on a complete meal only because I can get it so cheap through work, but should I change my job they will be going back on the raw, I have no argument either way apart from the fact my dogs did seem calmer, did have good solid stools, coats were looing pretty good, and they totally enjoyed it and never missed a meal. I will also point out the vet at work feeds her dogs the raw diet, and has the same feeling as me with regards to how her dogs seem to thrive on it.

Mo


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

Michelle666 said:


> I have to say Rainmaker, I have really enjoyed reading your posts and have learnt a great deal about dogs and what they should be eatting.
> I agree that veggies are not needed in a dogs diet. I feed totally raw food and my Sadie looks great for it. My vet praised me for feeding raw and was saying she wan't to encourage more people to feed their dogs (and cats) this diet. Giving preservs, additives and colourings etc is just as bad for them as it is for us!!


Hi Michelle, I'm really pleased you've found it interesting.  GOOD ON YOUR VET! You'd be surprised how many vets either don't take time to learn ('think outside the box') or else who openly admit they are too afraid to speak out. The pressure from the 'establishment' to conform to the norm of promoting commercial diets is immense. Right from being a vet school student, vets are offered free and/or extremely discounted commercial pet food, the few lessons they do receive on nutrition are formulated and/or delivered by pet food company reps, and anyone dissenting is quickly beaten off with their tail between their legs.

Vets have even been struck off the register for speaking out against commercial foods, despite the massive amount of independent evidence to the harm they cause. The reasons for their being struck off are never for malpractice (because they're quite right in advising raw diets and have the science to prove it!), but rather for things like "bringing the profession into disrepute".

Apparently, standing up and saying "Hang on, we're HURTING pets and their owners wallets here. Why not give impartial advice, offer support to pet owners feeding a time and science proven diet, and save a lot of costs and suffering all round?", leads to a quick hushing up. Parliament is starting to realise this, and Early Day Motions (EDMs) have now been tabled regarding the 'pet food fraud' and the way the high-level veterinary profession (eg RCVS) protects and defends the commercial position at the cost of pets' health.

Organisations, companies and individuals who state that dogs are omnivores, dogs are this, dogs are that, and raw diets are unbalanced and evil, always do just that... they 'state' things, they assert them, but they NEVER have a real body of evidence to back it up.

Even the pet food manufacturer's own literature concludes that feeding biscuits and canned food causes a great deal of harm and ill health in pets. For example:



> _At least 85% of all dogs suffer from periodontal disease by age 3 as a result of eating processed foods._
> 
> *Penman, S. and P. Emily. 1991. Scaling, Polishing and Dental Home Care. Waltham International Focus. 1(3): 2-8. In Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones. pg 110)*


That figure, if you read the whole paper, means over 85% of all dogs and cats (and ferrets these days) fed a commercial processed diet (aka junk food) will have oral disease *at a level necessitating surgery* by the age of three. The figure rises to almost 100% in older dogs. Note that the research was carried out by the pet food companies - nobody can blame them for bias in favour of raw feeding!

How sad is that statement?

Dogs fed a proper raw diet (whole raw meaty bones, whole carcases) don't fall victim to this at all. Surely that speaks volumes?

I'm so glad you feed raw, and wish you and your pet many more healthy happy years together. :thumbup1:


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Hi Michelle, I'm really pleased you've found it interesting.  GOOD ON YOUR VET! You'd be surprised how many vets either don't take time to learn ('think outside the box') or else who openly admit they are too afraid to speak out. The pressure from the 'establishment' to conform to the norm of promoting commercial diets is immense. Right from being a vet school student, vets are offered free and/or extremely discounted commercial pet food, the few lessons they do receive on nutrition are formulated and/or delivered by pet food company reps, and anyone dissenting is quickly beaten off with their tail between their legs.
> 
> Vets have even been struck off the register for speaking out against commercial foods, despite the massive amount of independent evidence to the harm they cause. The reasons for their being struck off are never for malpractice (because they're quite right in advising raw diets and have the science to prove it!), but rather for things like "bringing the profession into disrepute".
> 
> ...


Completely agree with the statement regarding dental disease, but im not sure i would go with a completely raw diet.
Though it has made me think, i will definetly do a bit more research!


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Completely agree with the statement regarding dental disease, but im not sure i would go with a completely raw diet.
> Though it has made me think, i will definetly do a bit more research!


Glad to hear it.  I'd never hope someone took my word for things - doing your own research (proper research, not pet food company brochures!) and making your own mind up is very important.

Might I suggest you start with a rather heavyweight book, "Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health" by Dr Tom Lonsdale? It's peer reviewed and fully scientifically referenced, and Tom pays to publish them himself. He doesn't sell them as a money making exercise, and indeed most of the research he quotes is freely available (FREE being the operative word) on his site. He's not trying to sell anything, even books, and is definitely not selling any concocted 'raw diets'.

He simply co-founded the Raw Meaty Bones Lobby after realising dogs and cats were, on the whole, chronically sick because of commercial pet food (junk food as he calls it). Perhaps borrow it from a library or a friend? The point I'm making is that I'm not trying to push a sale here as I have nothing to gain. But it's definitely required reading if you own a dog, cat or ferret.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

Just a further (final) note on the subject of 'balance'. The Raw Myths site has put it far more eloquently than I did, and you can read about on the it Myths About Raw: Are raw diets balanced? page.

In fact if you all have the time and inclination, I'd suggest you read the entire set of 'Raw Myths' on that site. They're scientifically referenced, easy to read, and very useful.


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## WaveRider (Sep 8, 2009)

So pleased this subject has been brought up as I am sick of correcting people who say dogs are omnivores. arghhhhhh:mad2:

Finally someone commented about how is it that dogs can eat raw meat without great risk to bacterial infection. 

Smaller intestine with much higher stomach acidity than humans.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

:thumbup1:


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I cahnged to feeding my dogs half raw half complete a few months ago. They are all in much better condition and their coats are much more shinny. Some of them have raw marrow bones too and their teeth are all much better and cleaner. Even William who claims he doesn't like chewing bone has cleaner teeth so I think he secretly does have a chew when I'm not around.:thumbup1:


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

mollythecollie said:


> why you feeding raw meat? whats wrong with normal dog food? If she doesnt like it and it makes her sick- give her something else...


are you serious?

edit
wow sorry didnt realise the lenf of this thread. Raw is the way it should be dont worry


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

mollythecollie said:


> So what about their anatomy prevents them digesting veges?


lol the way their body is set up means that they turn meat proteins into energy - we do the same with carbs. It is the exact reverse for them they do it with protein (meat protein). 
They can digest vegies but only certain ones but still need their energy from meat - thats why things like grains, onions, large amounts of garlic, raisins, currents, walnuts, mushrooms ARE POISONOUS lol as ..... they cant digest them... 

Edit: I hope the OP isnt put off giving a dog a bone after reading your posts....... lol why would you cook the meat and take all the goodness out? Why would you give a dog a cooked bone when it will splinter after cooking but not before!!??????


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> lol the way their body is set up means that they turn meat proteins into energy - we do the same with carbs it is the reverse for them they do it with protein (meat protein)


James, I do realise you're trying to lend support to the carnivore/raw argument, but your assertions are, at least partially, incorrect. The issue has already been discussed in the thread, with relevant citations from the literature. Did you read them? 

You're correct that dogs can and indeed do obtain energy from some of the amino acids present in protein and, more importantly, from the glycerol present in fat. The process is called gluconeogenesis, during which a non-carbohydrate nutrient is transformed into glucose. From there, different process called glucogenesis can transform it (glucose) into glycogen for storage depending on current ATP ('energy') demand. Dietary protein is much better spent on repairing and (re)building muscle, whereas fat is the preferred energy source. Indeed a dogs' whole system is designed around using fat as fuel, rather than protein per se.



> they can digest vegies but only certain ones - thats why things like onions, large amounts of garlic, raisins, currents, walnuts, mushrooms ARE POISONOUS lol as ..... they cant digest them...


Actually, as previously proven in the thread, dogs can't really digest vegetables in their natural state at all. Feed a dog a raw carrot, and watch what comes out of the other end virtually unscathed!

To be of any nutritious benefit, vegetable (and fruit) matter needs to be blended/puréed, possibly cooked, and held in the canine digestive system for some time. Commercial food manufacturers often use agents like beet pulp for this purpose. Even then vegetable matter is only minimally digestible and confers minimal nutrition versus the calorific effort of digestion.

More importantly, I'd be interested to hear how something (in your assertion onions, garlic, raisins, currants, walnuts, and mushrooms) can be poisonous because it *can't* be digested... How can something which is *not digested* affect the system in any way, let alone act as a poison on that system? Such an item would be basically inert. 

I'm not having a go, don't misunderstand me! What you said was in principal correct, but lest I be accused of being blindly pro-raw I thought it worth posting this mild correction to your post. I'm not blindly pro-*anything* except evidence-based investigation. That works for both sides of the argument when the need arises.

Basically you're right about what you say, but for the wrong reasons.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

From what I heard - they transform proteins into energy I cant remember the technical name for it but i dont think it was "glucogenesis". It may possibly have been but if I find it ill post it 

as far as digesting vegies fully, id say so long as B vits were extruded or some level of keratin then digestion would be taking place.. hey ho


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> From what I heard - they transform proteins into energy I cant remember the technical name for it but i dont think it was "glucogenesis". It may possibly have been but if I find it ill post it
> 
> as far as digesting vegies fully, id say so long as B vits were extruded or some level of keratin then digestion would be taking place.. hey ho


Not *gluco*genesis mate, that's the conversion of glucose into glycogen for storage as I said. *Gluconeo*genesis is the conversion of non-carbohydrate nutrients (some amino acids from protein, glycerol etc) into glucose. They look similar, but are very different pathways. 

See Gluconeogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
Cheers.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I cant find what the term was I thought it began with 'H' personally. To answer your above about items being poisonous. I am meaning if they were able to fully digest them they would have no reactions against the proteins - causing them no serious harm, seen as they do have reaction (severe) to them they are not capable of digesting those specific proteins/enzymes whatever and making use from them. Allegries come from the body coming into contact but not being able to cope with a foreign material - which is exactly what is going on there, they cannot process the item.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> I cant find what the term was I thought it began with 'H' personally. To answer your above about items being poisonous. I am meaning if they were able to fully digest them they would habe no reactions against the proteins - causing them no serious harm, seen as they do have reaction (severe) to them they are not capable of digesting those specitic proteins/enzymes whatever and making use from them.


Ah so you meant they can't tolerate them rather than can't physically digest them. That makes more sense.  :thumbup1:


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

mm not even finnished my tea yet!

I wouldnt say tollerate either really given the complete shut down they can have to some foods..?? 

::


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> mm not even finnished my tea yet!
> 
> I wouldnt say tollerate either really given the complete shut down they can have to some foods..??
> 
> ::


It's OK, suffice to say I know what you mean.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I dont mean so say your not wholey right - I know you know a fair bit on this, just thought id put my two cents feet in :thumbup1:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

mollythecollie said:


> Humans are meat eater too!
> 
> Raw food diets aren't balanced, and lead to nutritional problems


Not true at all. As a human I love eating raw meat and fish, too. never had a problem. Sashimi is a big thing in Japan


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2009)

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on these

AVMA - Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association - 228(4):537 - Abstract

AVMA - Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association - 228(10):1524 - Abstract

Bacteriological evaluation of commercial canine and feline raw diets

My main concern with raw diets is not the question of a balanced diet, as it is clear to anyone that this is the natural food of canines, but how that meat has been treated before it ends up as your dogs dinner.
What has the farmer fed the animals on and what drugs have they administered to that animal.
Also what parts of the animals has been put into commercially prepared raw food?


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

To answer in brief (I hope you don't feel this does you injustice);

(1) American food practices and regulations are VASTLY different to UK ones. Ours are more stringent by quite a bit.
(2) Dogs have a stomach pH of 1, far FAR more acidic than ours, and are equipped to handle such minor things as 'bugs' in their food. 
(3) If anything, at a push this could be an argument for not purchasing commercial raw food concoctions (which I don't), and never grinding their food. Not only is grinding food bad for the dog's teeth, but it basically 'plows' any bacteria right through the product, increasing the surface area available to them to grow by a factor of... well... millions I suppose.

At the end of the day it's not a real concern though. Feed whole raw meaty carcases and bones and they're fine on it.  Check out the bacteria-related articles on The Many Myths of Raw Feeding site for much more information about this kind of thing.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

rona said:


> I'd be interested in peoples opinions on these
> 
> AVMA - Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association - 228(4):537 - Abstract
> 
> ...


I will have a read of those - thanks,


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> To answer in brief (I hope you don't feel this does you injustice);
> 
> (1) American food practices and regulations are VASTLY different to UK ones. Ours are more stringent by quite a bit.
> (2) Dogs have a stomach pH of 1, far FAR more acidic than ours, and are equipped to handle such minor things as 'bugs' in their food.
> ...


My main concern has always been sheep meat. many years ago I had a dog which suffered dreadfully before she died.
I was told by the vet that she had contracted Toxoplasmosis from eating raw sheep meat.
I have since studied and come to the conclusion that it was more likely to have been Neospora caninum

An Overview of Neospora Canium and Raw Food Diets

Although the incidence of this is extremely low it must be taken into account when making a decision on diet


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

rona said:


> My main concern has always been sheep meat. many years ago I had a dog which suffered dreadfully before she died.
> I was told by the vet that she had contracted Toxoplasmosis from eating raw sheep meat.
> I have since studied and come to the conclusion that it was more likely to have been Neospora caninum
> 
> ...


I generally freeze my supplies anyway, as I hunt my own rabbits etc and buy anything else in bulk. Deep freezing kills the vast majority of parasites anyway. With regular worming I wouldn't let this be a major concern - a dog could have been just as unlucky to choke on kibble or something. Still, sorry to hear about your bad experience.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> To answer in brief (I hope you don't feel this does you injustice);
> 
> (1) American food practices and regulations are VASTLY different to UK ones. Ours are more stringent by quite a bit.
> (2) Dogs have a stomach pH of 1, far FAR more acidic than ours, and are equipped to handle such minor things as 'bugs' in their food.
> ...


I find this an odd statement as a good portion of the site you highlighted has most references to raw feeding in America 

Myths About Raw: What about raw diets and the AAFCO standards?


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

rona said:


> I find this an odd statement as a good portion of the site you highlighted has most references to raw feeding in America
> 
> Myths About Raw: What about raw diets and the AAFCO standards?


Yeah not the best example, sorry for being brusque. My family have only just left, but I didn't want to leave the thread without a reply as I didn't know how long they were planning on staying. 

As I said, personally I don't think there's anything worth worrying about. Simply follow good practice as you would for human meat handling and preparations and you should be fine. I generally freeze all my foods as a precaution as I said, but I've also fed hundreds of fresh rabbits (literally still warm) and never had problems.

The things you referred to are rare, and studies like those produced by the AVMA don't always bear up to scrutiny, as follow up papers (rebuttals) show. Not only that but veterinary industry journals don't have the best record for impartiality in the raw v commercial discussion. Just remember how much money vets make from selling the stuff and performing surgery necessitated by dogs forced to eat unsuitable, damaging foods.

Have you ever read Raw Meaty Bones? It's Dr Tom Lonsdale's book on the "pet food fraud", periodontal disease in relation to commercially fed pets, and the massive effect it's had on their health, longevity and economy. A fully scientifically referenced, peer reviewed thesis, and definitely worth a read whether you feed raw or not!  PM me if you like....

But at the end of the day it's down to individual choice. As you said earlier, raw meat and bones is the dogs' natural diet and is good for them, unlike commercial foods. I've never had an issue, and although 'stuff happens' it's very very rare. About as rare as E. coli poisoning, lethal mycotoxin poisoning, and lethal melamine contamination in commercial foods... you get the idea.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

You have to realise this is America also, where control and paranoia is rife even with the simplest of thought. Everything over there is so finely tuned by large media organisations to have the population buy what is sold. Any research that comes out of them is questionable.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

james1 said:


> You have to realise this is America also, where control and paranoia is rife even with the simplest of thought. Everything over there is so finely tuned by large media organisations to have the population buy what is sold. Any research that comes out of them is questionable.


Quite a statement!

It would be good to get some more info on the greyhound study- there could be plenty of other factors involved other than the raw food diet.
I quite believe the other papers- all meat is likely to have some amount of contamination, no matter how stringent the production regulations. The question is can all dogs cope with this, what dogs are at more risk of infections and what levels of contamination are acceptable.
What we need is multi-millionaire dog lover, willing to fund some in depth studies of raw diet vs commercial diets.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> What we need is multi-millionaire dog lover, willing to fund some in depth studies of raw diet vs commercial diets.


Never a truer word spoken! Unfortunately, funding for independent raw diet studies is virtually nil - unless it has the stated aim of basically finding fault with it. When the funding is provided, in the vast majority, by the pet food industry and/or departments funded in turn by them, that's hardly surprising.

You may find Sir Frank Colyer's works interesting, and also Pottenger's cat studies (raw v cooked).


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

Interesting read. So if you have frozen chicken wings or tripe blocks you can feed them to your dog frozen?


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Quite a statement!
> 
> It would be good to get some more info on the greyhound study- there could be plenty of other factors involved other than the raw food diet.
> I quite believe the other papers- all meat is likely to have some amount of contamination, no matter how stringent the production regulations. The question is can all dogs cope with this, what dogs are at more risk of infections and what levels of contamination are acceptable.
> What we need is multi-millionaire dog lover, willing to fund some in depth studies of raw diet vs commercial diets.


Dogs digestive system can handle quite a lot 

Biology of the pancreas in growing ... - Google Books


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## michellenroxy (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi every1,omg didnt think this thread would be so popular lol ,thanks to every1 who has replyed,my ddb roxy seems to be doing fine of raw and always has a spotless bowl after raw,my next question is could you people who feed raw give me an idea of your weekly day by day raw plan of what u feed ur dogs,just to give me some idea of what else to feed her,and wht else to put with it,thanks to every1 who answered my QS xxx:thumbup1:


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## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

just for fun



A Most Carnivorous Christmas

Twas the night before Christmas; in the house, not a sound.
The critters were zonked out, their bellies so round.

The fridge was all cleaned out; the freezer was bare
In hopes it would fill with a bounty so rare.

The dogs on the couch and the cats in their tree;
No doubt all were dreaming of a nice RMB.

Dad in his pj's and me in my gown;
I'd just finished mopping the kitchen floor down

When out in the yard I heard such a racket;
I slipped on my shoes and grabbed a warm jacket.

The moon was quite bright, and the sky was so clear;
The stars were all twinkling--wait, was that a DEER!?

I followed the shadow out back of the shed,
And what I saw next had me scratching my head:

A great St Bernard, with a jingle bell collar!
Then from inside my house, I heard someone holler:

"Here's beef ribs and goat meat and oxtails and deer!
Chicken and rabbit and pork--have no fear!"

I ran in my kitchen, and guess who I found?
Looking like St Nick, but dressed all in brown?

Why, it's SANTA PAWS, that wonderful guy
Who each Christmas Eve comes down out of the sky

And blesses our furkids with toys and with treats,
And gives to our carnivores yummy RAW MEATS!

He stocked my fridge and freezer with organs and such,
Then he pointed to something--oh, this was too much!

"For you," he said proudly, "a chest freezer at last;
Fifteen cubic feet, and it runs on dog gas."

He lifted the lid; it was full to the brim
With hog heads and green tripe, and deer meat and trim.

My heart was near bursting; I wept tears of joy.
What blessings, what feasts, what good food! Boy oh boy!

He laughed at my happiness, and that's when I saw
The buckle of his belt was a shiny gold paw.

"Your house-wolves and wildcats deserve only the best!
Their perfect diet is here in this chest."

He gave a sharp whistle; in came the St B.
I gave him a scratch and then half a turkey.

He scarfed it right down and gave me a big kiss.
Santa Paws laughed, and then he said this:

"Each Christmas Eve I'll visit your place,
And I best not find kibble, not even a trace!

"Empty your freezer, I'll fill it up right,
Stock it with goodies, packed in nice and tight.

"I might bring some toys, a Kong or a ball,
But proper nutrition is the best gift of all!"

His dog gave a WOOF as if to agree;
I motioned to him, shh, Dad's sleeping, you see?

We went out to the yard where his sleigh was parked;
He hooked up the St B, who smiled and barked.

And Santa Paws said, as though it were law,
"Merry Christmas, and keep feeding those carnivores RAW!"

Written by Crystal Sarcopski and the Raw Food Brood


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2009)

Brilliant :thumbup1:


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## Jackie Garland (Dec 10, 2020)

I have a question I have a 4 month old DDB and hes on raw but I've changed it from the pet shops one to the butchers cuts and hes has very soft stools everything else seem fine and hes loves it just asking if that's normal as when he was on the raw from the pet shop it made him constipated to much bone in it so that's why am asking if I've done the right thing changing to the butcher raw.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Jackie Garland said:


> I have a question I have a 4 month old DDB and hes on raw but I've changed it from the pet shops one to the butchers cuts and hes has very soft stools everything else seem fine and hes loves it just asking if that's normal as when he was on the raw from the pet shop it made him constipated to much bone in it so that's why am asking if I've done the right thing changing to the butcher raw.


This post is 11 years old. You would be better to start your own post then I am sure you will get some very informative replies.


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