# Electronic Dog Fence



## Quillan (Nov 12, 2010)

Hello, new poster here, hope you can help.

I have a couple of acres of back garden, one part is not fenced but it is bordered by a river. My dog is entering the river and appearing in the back garden three houses downstream. The cost of putting up a dog proof fence is very high and I came across these electronic dog fences. Basically a wire is placed in the ground and collar round the dogs neck. At about 12 feet there is a tone, at 6 feet there is a vibration and at 3 feet a mild 'static' type electric shock. Apparently after a while you can turn off the shock and just have the tone and vibration.

So I need to know how good these things are, any tips, advice etc. Giving my dog an electric shock fills me with horror but I am led to believe its not painful and has no lasting effect, is this true? Can anyone recommend a product?

Thanks in advance.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I wouldn't say it had no lasting effects. I have seen on a tv program (Its me or the Dog) people who used an electronic fence like this and their dog thereafter refused to go out in the garden. It took ages to coax him back out there.

A dog isn't going to stop for the first two, he is going to go on to the shock stage. Goodness knows what sort of effect it could have on him. Perhaps you could consider some very cheap high fencing, like mesh wire until you can afford something better looking? I certainly think it would be worth sacrificing the view for.


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## Quillan (Nov 12, 2010)

Hi thanks for coming back so quick. The garden is about a hectare which is around 2.5 acres in English money, The fence I would have to put up would be in excess of 300M long (about half a mile) so what with the supports and everything even with cheap wire it's going to cost a lot of money (one estimate is about £2,000 and that's the cheapest). The more advanced electronic system I have seen advertised will cost me just under £300.

To be honest we just don't have the money for the fence so if the electronic one is no good then the dog will have to go back to the rescue home which is a shame.

By the way, just to add, it's nothing to do with the view, its the dogs safety that's paramount.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Quillan said:


> Hi thanks for coming back so quick. The garden is about a hectare which is around 2.5 acres in English money, The fence I would have to put up would be in excess of 300M long (about half a mile) so what with the supports and everything even with cheap wire it's going to cost a lot of money (one estimate is about £2,000 and that's the cheapest). The more advanced electronic system I have seen advertised will cost me just under £300.
> 
> To be honest we just don't have the money for the fence so if the electronic one is no good then the dog will have to go back to the rescue home which is a shame.
> 
> By the way, just to add, it's nothing to do with the view, its the dogs safety that's paramount.


Is the dog outside alot or just for a run around and toilet ?? If its the later What about a tether for the garden. You can get a long chew proof tether with a clip on it, just fasten him on it and he can run about but not run off ??


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Quillan said:


> Hi thanks for coming back so quick. The garden is about a hectare which is around 2.5 acres in English money, The fence I would have to put up would be in excess of 300M long (about half a mile) so what with the supports and everything even with cheap wire it's going to cost a lot of money (one estimate is about £2,000 and that's the cheapest). The more advanced electronic system I have seen advertised will cost me just under £300.
> 
> To be honest we just don't have the money for the fence so if the electronic one is no good then the dog will have to go back to the rescue home which is a shame.
> 
> *By the way, just to add, it's nothing to do with the view, its the dogs safety that's paramount.*




Sorry, I said that rather tongue in cheek! It would have sounded more like the joke it was meant to be in person. I am sure you don't care about the view. I can imagine how much fencing would cost for such a large amount of land. Try Rainybow's suggestion; sounds like the best idea. If the dog is from rescue, he is likely to be even more traumatised by any electronic devices, to be honest.

I could never have a river at the bottom of my garden - my two would be disappearing all the time.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Quillan said:


> Hi thanks for coming back so quick. The garden is about a hectare which is around 2.5 acres in English money, The fence I would have to put up would be in excess of 300M long (about half a mile) so what with the supports and everything even with cheap wire it's going to cost a lot of money (one estimate is about £2,000 and that's the cheapest). The more advanced electronic system I have seen advertised will cost me just under £300.
> 
> To be honest we just don't have the money for the fence so if the electronic one is no good then the dog will have to go back to the rescue home which is a shame.
> 
> By the way, just to add, it's nothing to do with the view, its the dogs safety that's paramount.


Eh....£2,000 - is it gold plated? We've got 3 acres fully fenced and have just purchased another 2.1/2 acres which needs dog proof fencing on two sides. Sheep/chicken/rabbit proof wire netting is relatively cheap and comes in rolls 3 - 4 - 5 ft high.


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

could you divide the garden up into a smaller area for him to run around in safely?
could you provide him with a long line securely anchored to a point whereby he couldnt reach the river but still run around?
could you make sure he is supervised at all times when running loose and recll him from the river area?


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## Quillan (Nov 12, 2010)

Re the expense, we live in France and he is one of two dogs that we have rescued. Prices are a lot higher here plus being handicapped digging the holes for the supports is something I cannot do. One is two years old and this one is seven months old. The river where it runs past one side of the property is used for white water rafting and for fishing (Salmon and Trout), it's controlled by a dam. Both the dogs have the run of the garden and house, in the summer we regularly have temperatures of 38 to 40 deg. Dogs find their own places in the garden and house with these temperatures and its really important they have the freedom to do so. Fortunately the older dog has no interest in going in the river so we just have a problem with the younger.

The part of the garden that has a beach is not in the direct flow of the river as it separates our garden from the small island we own. The water trickles past the island and rejoins the river. Opposite the island are two further properties, one with a substantial fence to keep wild boar out and the other has no fence at all. If it were not for that the dog would just stay in the garden or on the island.

The suggestion of using a cord is not appropriate in our circumstances as both dogs spend hours playing together and it would all end in a massive knot possibly injuring one of the dogs. I would rather send the dog back than put it on a long cord in the garden, I consider it cruel.

Having somebody watch the dog(s) in the garden is not practicable and defeats the object of having the dogs which is to give them as high a quality of life as possible.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

What about a nice kennel and run


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lucysnewmum has a good suggestion, I think. With that amount of land, could you not divide up a smaller area for the dogs to play and fence that off? I realise everything is more expensive in France (been there!) but it would be a lot cheaper than trying to fence the whole lot and you might be able to get a local handyman to do that for you.


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## Quillan (Nov 12, 2010)

Well I thought I would report back.

I bought an 'electronic fence' from Ebay for just under £100 and paid a bit more for more flags and longer wire.

The system 'bleeps' when the dogs are about ten feet way from the wire, at about 5 ft it gives a bleep and a mild shock, as the dog gets nearer the fence from that point the intensity increases.

It took about 30 minutes to train both dogs and neither have 'crossed the line'. We no longer have them set to shock just to bleep, truthfully we turned the 'shock' part off after just over a week.

This system is very good and I am more than pleased with it. Some of my friends have seen it, well they saw the flags (put out to show the dogs where the boundary is located), and asked me what it was, watched the dogs and have now bought the same or similar system.

I have heard stories about these systems but providing you read the instructions and use a bit of common sense when you install them and only put the collar on when they go outside (that's a psychological thing for the dogs) it really is a great system and means I can let them out and not worry about them. They have the complete run of the 2.5 acres including the woods where they can have a good rummage and thoroughly enjoy their life, much better than being in the local dog pound.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Quillan said:


> It took about 30 minutes to train both dogs and neither have 'crossed the line'.
> We no longer have them set to shock just to bleep, truthfully we turned the 'shock' part off after just over a week.
> 
> This system is very good and I am more than pleased with it. Some of my friends have seen it, well they saw the flags
> ...


this sounds more like a sales-pitch than an owner's installation log. :huh: 


Quillan said:


> I have heard stories about these systems...


do the *stories* include dogs 
* blowing THRU the fence & unable to come back home, as they will not re-enter for fear of the shock? 
[the shock works on both sides, when the dog gets in proximity.]

* other *dogs* or strange *persons* enter the yard, and harass or assault the resident dog? 
just 3-days ago, an under-10# dog was killed *inside their shock-fenced yard* while the owner was at work!, 
which is itself another whole problem; the owner of the 2 dogs who attacked the Shih-Tzu mix had already been 
warned previously about her dogs roaming at large, she has been charged & she surrendered *both her dogs, 
who were euthanized - *  which IMO is nothing to brag about, the one *owner* failing to confine, 
and the other *failing to put her dog indoors while she was out of the house*, were the root causes.

* how about *superstitious, fearful* or *aggressive* behaviors after the shock-fence is installed? 
these are quite common; the dog blames whatever they are running toward or approaching for the 'bite' from the fence, 
they *don't blame* their own actions - so bicyclist, strange dog or neighbor's known dog, children who CALL the dog, 
passersby of all sorts, *are the cause* in the dog's mind, of the *Zap!*
dogs then begin to avoid visitors in the house, pedestrians when on leash outside the fence, etc - they start to 
*generalize* the concept of "X = possible shock coming" from inside the fence-perimeter to other circs.

dogs who begin to hide from visitors inside the house, stand & bark at visitors outside in the yard, 
'virtually fence-fight' racing up & down the boundary parallel to a dog or person outside the fence, etc, 
are incredibly common; bites from a dog who never bit a person or another dog in anger in their life, 
are not at all rare. :nonod: 


Quillan said:


> ...but providing you read the instructions and use a bit of common sense when you install them
> and only put the collar on when they go outside (that's a psychological thing for the dogs) it really is a great system
> and means I can let them out and not worry about them. They have the complete run of the 2.5 acres
> including the woods where they can have a good rummage and thoroughly enjoy their life, much better than
> being in the local dog pound.


if they are _*running around on 2.5-acres,*_ they are probably out of sight even from the yard itself, 
let alone the window overlooking the yard - especially once the trees leaf-out, they'll be invisible! 

the first U may hear of Ur dog getting out is the word that one has been shot worrying livestock, 
or hit by a car, or shot by some idiot who took a dog crashing thru the brush as a wild-boar about to gore them  
there are always idiots who shoot at sound, not knowing what they are aiming at as they cannot SEE it.

that is, if no person or strange dog enters the 'YARD' [using the term very loosely!] & assaults the dogs, first.

i personally think U are taking one helluva chance with these dogs U calim to love so much... 
[shrug] --- but they are *your* dogs, so it's Ur choice; i would never ever recommend this to a client, 
as a 'secure' set-up or as a safe option for their dogs; a smaller yard with a REAL fence, visible from the house 
& sharing at least one side with the house, would be my recommendation.

good luck to the dogs - they'll need it, IMO.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm glad it has worked out well for you and just hope your friends will know how to use theirs properly too. The problem I think with this kind of "training" is where does it stop? I mean if the dog does anything else it's not supposed to will you buy an electronic collar too, because it's easier than going down the conventional training route?

If it had been me i'd have had an area from my house fenced off and enjoyed taking the dog out for a lovely walk on my land, rather than just let him roam around on his own.

Don't fancy a swap of location do you - think I could settle for your home even without the fencing, lol!


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## Quillan (Nov 12, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> this sounds more like a sales-pitch than an owner's installation log. :huh:
> 
> do the *stories* include dogs
> * blowing THRU the fence & unable to come back home, as they will not re-enter for fear of the shock?
> ...




I take it English is not your first language?

Your talking about something you know nothing about because you don't know where I live or what I do and anyway I don't have a yard, I'm not it the building, or any other business that requires a yard.

You clearly don't know much about these types of fences either or how exactly they work. Neither did I when I started out with this which was why I asked here in the first place.

I have only electronically fenced two sides of my garden, the other two sides have conventional fencing which was there originally. The two sides that I have used this on is not approachable by people.

Even with a conventional fence at the end of the wooded area you wouldn't be able to see what the dogs are doing and I certainly wouldn't leave my dogs in a garden when I went to work. My property is my work so I am here most of the time and when I am out (shopping etc) the dogs are inside the house. When I did work and had a dog (different to these I might add) I employed a 'dog sitter' for two hours a day to check the dogs, water and walk them.

I never mentioned the name of the fence I bought, I have no commercial link with the make or seller and I don't have clients unlike yourself. I have simply passed on my experiences from a first hand (and not hearsay) point of view just in case anyone else was looking or had been thinking about buying such a fence.

I do have visitors, quite a few, more so than perhaps many normal dog owners and so far there has not been a problem and to be honest I can't see there ever being any.

The only problem I have come across first hand is another person I talked too who forgot to take the collar off when they placed the dog in the car and drove away from their home. They didn't use their common sense and take the fence around the drive and garage (because they had constructed a full, looped enclosure. They have since had a few problems getting their dog in to the car. A very stupid mistake when designing the fence layout.

Try to be more helpful, I think it's important to only put the collars on when the dogs go in the garden. This way the dogs know they can go out and where they can go in the garden. I think that you meant 'Run Through' rather than 'Blow Thru' in which case the fences electronics are designed to stop this.

As I also said you don't need to have the 'shock' side working after a while, the dogs see the flags which mark the boundary and the tone emitted as they approach the fence is sufficient to stop them from going further.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Quillan said:


> You clearly don't know much about these types of fences either or how exactly they work. Neither did I when I started out with this which was why I asked here in the first place


I'm afraid she does know what she's talking about.

You are saying, "this fence has worked well for me" and it has so far. The people who get called to deal with the cases where it does not work eg) dogs learning to bolt out or getting phobias or becoming aggressive, hate the things for good reason.

Terry may be hard to understand often at first, but her points were valid. These shock fence systems have a bad reputation, amongst people who really know dogs, and for good reason.

Good that you have turned off the shock, rather a shame that you resorted to inflicting pain to have them avoid an area, when the dog has no way of understanding they why's and wherefores.

I do understand that it seems like a cost effective and practical solution for you.


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## Quillan (Nov 12, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I'm glad it has worked out well for you and just hope your friends will know how to use theirs properly too. The problem I think with this kind of "training" is where does it stop? I mean if the dog does anything else it's not supposed to will you buy an electronic collar too, because it's easier than going down the conventional training route?
> 
> If it had been me i'd have had an area from my house fenced off and enjoyed taking the dog out for a lovely walk on my land, rather than just let him roam around on his own.
> 
> Don't fancy a swap of location do you - think I could settle for your home even without the fencing, lol!


I agree with your comments about where do you stop. My attitude is that this is not a form of training, it's just a fence system but of a different type. Over here all the pet shops and gardening shops have these units which shock dogs when they bark. I personally would never use such a device, you can quite easily stop a dog from barking.

I have also seen these collars with quite complicated remote controls, I can't see the point of these either and I would worry that the animal would only respond to electric stimulation rather than oral or signed commands. This could be inconvenient at times and possibly put yourself, others and even the animal in danger.

I have trained all my dogs (I have had eight over the years and all, apart from my current two, have died of old age) but only in the basics, to come when called, to sit when told or automatically when a car, horse (I live in the country) etc approach. They also walk to heal on a leash what I don't teach them is to lay down, give their paw, roll over etc as there is no need and the only person who gets gratification out of a dog doing this is the owner not the dog and its not needed. I use voice and sign, the latter is very helpful when on the phone for example.

The problem with fencing down here is cost, it's expensive especially with such a large length and a dog that, as we discovered, can dig better than a WW2 prisoner from the Great Escape and jump 'buildings (OK high fences) with a single bound' well almost.

With all the Expats down here leaving because of the exchange rate you can pick up a house with four bedrooms, pool and a hectare of garden for about £160k these days and they might, if desperate enough, take less.

Anyway I hope my first hand experience is of help to somebody thinking of installing such a fence and as I said please read the instructions and use a bit of common sense. Don't simply unpack it and set it up straight away, sit down and think about it first.

Once it is installed don't just put the collar on and let the dog out, this is where the problems will start that some have mentioned. The dog needs to be 'trained', walked round the enclosed area and learn what happens, see the flags, know where the boundaries are. I also repainted the flags so they are no longer white but a disgusting uncommon purple colour because I don't want the dog to associate it's limits with something that's white or another 'normal colour'. Always start with a minimum 'shock', try it on yourself first on the lowest power so you know what it feels like. If the dog yelps with pain rather than supprise you clearly have it set too high.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Quillan said:


> I take it English is not your first language?
> 
> Your talking about something you know nothing about because you don't know where I live or what I do and anyway I don't have a yard, I'm not it the building, or any other business that requires a yard.


The text-speak aside (U for "you", etc), just to clarify---"yard" in America is what over the pond is called a "garden". Back-garden = back yard. A garden over here is more a flower-garden or vegetable-garden--it has a specific role, but the yard is just open space. Even a tiny little square of grass is a yard.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Quillan said:


> My attitude is that this is not a form of training, it's just a fence system but of a different type


You are training a dog, using postive-punishment and hope that the behaviour of avoiding the river boundary is negatively-reinforced, discussion recent at Negative Reinforcement

This shock stuff is not legal in the UK, just may be the Kennel Club & Government ppl who looked into all this, did that for good reason.

Fences, are visible to the dog and don't myseteriously zap them, even after a warning which they must be trained to understand, in order that they retreat from the area.


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## theevos5 (Dec 24, 2009)

We have got a house in France,what we have done is,made an outdoor area for our dog,that is fenced off and secure,that he goes in when there isn't anybody around to supervise.It is a sizeable amount of land,he has plenty of space to exercise.When we are in the garden,he has full run of it.He is a beagle and his natural instinct will be to hunt and we have livestock all around us,so we needed to ensure that he is safe and so are our neighbours animals. we also have an indoor run,in the barn,for when the temperature does reach 30-40 degrees.He prefers to be indoors when its too hot anyway.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

I understand the situation you find yourself in and can see how an invisible fence system would appeal, but in my honest opinion the success or failure of such a system is completely irrelevant. You may have succeeded in training your dogs not to cross the boundary but you have done it using physical pain, and I am sorry but if you don't believe that these devices inflict pain then I suggest you strap one on to your leg and try and cross the boundary yourself.

This is a situation that should never have been allowed to develop in the first place and I believe that allowing your dogs free reign over such a large unsecured area without proper supervision is highly irresponsible. If you cannot supervise your dogs then they should not be there. I fail to see how you can condemn the use of a shock collar to stop a dog from barking and then use exactly the same device to prevent your dogs from straying.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I find these to be the most dangerous of all the shock training equipment and in my experience they come with the most fallout.
This is not to pick on the OP but the discussion has moved onto the issues surrounding these fences and as such here we are.

This post from Christine Hibbard does a good job of highlighting some of the issues: Invisible Fences: Not a Recommended Solution

And I like this one as a summary of the overall issues related to the use of shock as a training tool: http://www.dogsportmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/The Problem With Shock.pdf

We get at least two or three dogs a month through the pound wearing a shock fence collar. The dogs have run through the fence to chase something or whatever but will not risk a shock to get back in. Indeed may have been scared away from the boundary because of the shock.

I don't believe that all dogs exposed to these fences become aggressive but there is enough evidence there to suggest that reactivity is a likely fallout of teh use of aversives, especially shock delivered remotely.
An observation made by dog wardens I am in contact with is that many of teh dogs they pick up chasing livestock wear these collars so there may even be a connection there.

There was also a recently reported case in the US of a dog within the boundary of his shock fence attacked and killed by at least one other roaming dog - will have to dig out the details. Another concern.

Another big issue is the false sense of security such a device gives and the resulting lack of supervision of the dog/s.

I teach boundary training a couple of ways to dogs, without the use of shock, in case some are interested in an alternative.

The first uses targeting and flags like those that come with the shock fences. I basically teach a similar idea to the dog except instead of teaching that approaching the flag means a shock may be delivered, I teach that approaching the flag means to return to the owner for something amazing.

Teach the dog to touch, with his nose, foot etc., the flag and receive the best reward. 
Then work on teaching the dog to move progressively further away to touch the flag.
When brought outside I work the dog on a long line. This process takes about two weeks of practice which is the suggested training period of many of the shock manufactureers.
I agree that the dog should not be unsupervised but this gives you some distance control.
I prefer the targeting technique for larger areas where you are likely to be further from the dog.
After some proofing I find targeting to one of the easiest behaviours to build to proficiency.

I also teach the dog on leash about approaching the boundary but this is a bit more advanced as it involves the use of a no reward marker (NRM), which I only use with savvy dogs.
Practice on leash approaching various boundaries, the front door, the property boundary etc. Ask for a sit at the boundary and reward with access to outside. Repeat often.

Test the dog, after much practice, by walking to the boundary and not asking for a sit. If they don't sit use the NRM and bring the dog back inside for boring time.
I find this technique more for safety in a small area where you are going to be close by such as when going to the car for example, or even for good frontdoor manners.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Really?...


Yes (at least in Wales)


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

It would appear that your last post has been deleted, and rightly so.

So you have rescued these dogs from certain death, well done, but in doing so you have made yourself responsible for their safety and well being and in my view, allowing them to roam unsupervised does not constitute responsible dog ownership.

You posted this thread asking for opinions of electronic fence devices and that is exactly what you got, however, to dismiss those opinions, some from very experienced and qualified people, with personal insults is ignorant beyond belief.

YouTube - Invisible barriers- dog training


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I understand the situation you find yourself in and can see how an invisible fence system would appeal, but in my honest opinion the success or failure of such a system is completely irrelevant. You may have succeeded in training your dogs not to cross the boundary but you have done it using physical pain, and I am sorry but *if you don't believe that these devices inflict pain then I suggest you strap one on to your leg and try and cross the boundary yourself.*This is a situation that should never have been allowed to develop in the first place and I believe that allowing your dogs free reign over such a large unsecured area without proper supervision is highly irresponsible. If you cannot supervise your dogs then they should not be there. I fail to see how you can condemn the use of a shock collar to stop a dog from barking and then use exactly the same device to prevent your dogs from straying.


Leg? If he wants an accurate example, he should strap it round his neck.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> Yes (at least in Wales)


Shock collars have been banned in Wales and we hope to ban them in the UK, but shock fences, as far as I know, have not been banned anywhere. If they have, how come farmers can still use them around their sheep to keep dogs out?

Tripod, that sounds so simple, yet obviously takes a lot of work and patience, perhaps why people are so keen to go for the shock treatment. I used to have a goldie that I walked on the heath every day. On the way home we would get to the tree about 20ft from the main road, and that is where I would put his lead on. When he got a bit more ambitious he would tear off toward that tree and that is as far as he would go. The first time he did it my heart was in my mouth because I was sure he was going to aim straight across the road, but no, he stopped and waited for me at our usual tree. I had no idea I was actually training him to do this, it was just repetition, but worked out the same.

The puzzle is why people come here asking for advice about stuff and then go off and do their own thing anyway.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Leg? If he wants an accurate example, he should strap it round his neck.


True, but inadvisable. This is what happens when you hold one in your hand

YouTube - Hot Girlfriend Electric fence Prank

Now tell me that these things are an acceptable way of training a dog.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Shock collars have been banned in Wales and we hope to ban them in the UK, but shock fences, as far as I know, have not been banned anywhere. If they have, how come farmers can still use them around their sheep to keep dogs out?


I think you are getting confused between electric fences used to contain livestock and the 'invisible barrier' type used on dogs. The livestock fences are a cord running within a normal fence that has a small current running through it, usually powered by a car battery. They are designed to keep animals in, not to keep dogs out.

The invisible barriers that the OP has used here are based on a shock collar, but are activated by a wire that is buried underground. When the collar passes over the wire the device is triggered and the dog gets a shock.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Shock collars have been banned in Wales and we hope to ban them in the UK, but shock fences, as far as I know, have not been banned anywhere. If they have, how come farmers can still use them around their sheep to keep dogs out?


Those fences are wire fences, visible and don't require a collar; they're probably regarded as a commercial necessity.  The animal knows what hurt it, and you can often hear a hum around them.

Shock collar, is a shock collar to me; the invisible "E-fence" version would surely be trivialy adapted to allow the handler to zap the dog via remote, to promote further aversive training.

Actually the proximity should trigger a warning, not the shock, with the dog given a grace period to move away. This unfortunately means a panicy dog can learn to bolt through the electro-shock system zone and then get stuck out, with no way back in, as they walk home, rather than be chasing after something.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I think you are getting confused between electric fences used to contain livestock and the 'invisible barrier' type used on dogs. The livestock fences are a cord running within a normal fence that has a small current running through it, usually powered by a car battery. They are designed to keep animals in, not to keep dogs out.
> 
> The invisible barriers that the OP has used here are based on a shock collar, but are activated by a wire that is buried underground. When the collar passes over the wire the device is triggered and the dog gets a shock.


Not confused, just badly explained! I know that the awful shock collars have been banned in Wales, but have they banned the dog fences as well?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Not confused, just badly explained! I know that the awful shock collars have been banned in Wales, but have they banned the dog fences as well?


Why would a shock collar being used so a human can zap them be banned, and an automatic zap with shock collar without any supervision be permitted?

Now, I heard discussion about legislation to ban that stuff years ago and also heard comment of newer recent legislation passed which also if enforced could cover such things. One of the justifications by Kennel Club for it's privileged existence, was said to be it's proactive work with the government on such matters.

So I believed, these things were not saleable or used permissibly. Are their loop holes, or did they screw up the passage of legislation? May be it's interpretation and subject to argument, but the thrust of it and intent seemed clear enough to me.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Not confused, just badly explained! I know that the awful shock collars have been banned in Wales, but have they banned the dog fences as well?


As I understand it and as implied by this article, yes they are banned. The dog fence is based on a shock collar and the only difference is that they are triggered automatically by an underground wire rather than manually by someone with a remote control in their hand.

Interesting that they have made it a criminal offence with a potential prison sentence or a fine of up to £20,000. They are obviously taking it very seriously.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

So that is going way further than simply banning, making sale illegal but allowing possession & import for example. I just brought up the point on illegality in context, because there was this "oh it's only a fence" not a training method, which I found self-deluding.

Up to 6 months and £20,000 fine in Wales, sounds much more impressive than an item just being banned 

By the way, this thread is also misleadingly titled, as only the trigger mechanism is "electronic" the punishment is via electric shock, and has to be severe enough ie inflict pain, a burning pain at some point to be effective.

I accidentally zapped a horse on a traditional electric fence, I asked if it was on, was told no. The horse nuzzled it's nose against my hand, and that caused contact with the wire. I saw a bolt, and had the hair on back of my hand burning afterwards, with the horse dashing about screaming. Powered "only by 12v car battery" or not, you can get enough amps off a battery to do real damage, like burning. Yes, it worked...


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Shock collars have been banned in Wales and we hope to ban them in the UK, but shock fences, as far as I know, have not been banned anywhere. If they have, how come farmers can still use them around their sheep to keep dogs out?
> 
> Tripod, that sounds so simple, yet obviously takes a lot of work and patience, perhaps why people are so keen to go for the shock treatment. I used to have a goldie that I walked on the heath every day. On the way home we would get to the tree about 20ft from the main road, and that is where I would put his lead on. When he got a bit more ambitious he would tear off toward that tree and that is as far as he would go. The first time he did it my heart was in my mouth because I was sure he was going to aim straight across the road, but no, he stopped and waited for me at our usual tree. I had no idea I was actually training him to do this, it was just repetition, but worked out the same.
> 
> The puzzle is why people come here asking for advice about stuff and then go off and do their own thing anyway.


Normal electric fences are legal, though different councils have different restrictions.Some even banning in urban areas I believe. But I was guessing that due to the nature of the OP's device (use of a collar to shock if the dog gets close) then it would fall under the ban if used in Wales.


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## Quillan (Nov 12, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Those fences are wire fences, visible and don't require a collar; they're probably regarded as a commercial necessity. The animal knows what hurt it, and you can often hear a hum around them.
> 
> Shock collar, is a shock collar to me; the invisible "E-fence" version would surely be trivialy adapted to allow the handler to zap the dog via remote, to promote further aversive training.
> 
> Actually the proximity should trigger a warning, not the shock, with the dog given a grace period to move away. This unfortunately means a panicy dog can learn to bolt through the electro-shock system zone and then get stuck out, with no way back in, as they walk home, rather than be chasing after something.


Actually I have tried it and it's not that painful plus after a while you don't have to use the shock, the tone is all that's required and the fence is well marked. Clearly these facts alone indicates that some don't even know what they are talking about.

Anyway my reason for posting, and some will be very pleased I am sure, is that it will be my last and I just wanted to thank publicly all those that have PMed me with their support and advice on how to use these fences and there have been quite a few. What is interesting is the majority said they would never admit they used one on this forum because of the bullies, verbal abuse not to mention intimidation by people who think they are experts yet hold no qualifications what so ever.

Clearly this is not a forum of truths as my post would not have been deleted, nor is it balanced as it seems OK to bully and intimidate others but your not allowed to retaliate. That does not make for a balanced forum. I also had two very abusive and threatening PM's which I binned straight away. You know who you are and you should be ashamed.

I wish all of you and your pets a long and happy life.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Quillan said:


> Actually I have tried it and it's not that painful plus after a while you don't have to use the shock, the tone is all that's required and the fence is well marked. Clearly these facts alone indicates that some don't even know what they are talking about.
> 
> Anyway my reason for posting, and some will be very pleased I am sure, is that it will be my last and I just wanted to thank publicly all those that have PMed me with their support and advice on how to use these fences and there have been quite a few. What is interesting is the majority said they would never admit they used one on this forum because of the bullies, verbal abuse not to mention intimidation *by people who think they are experts yet hold no qualifications what so ever.*
> 
> ...


No one needs qualifications to know that something hurts, do they? I would also point out that many of the people who have told you how dangerous these fences are, the behaviour that can follow the use of such devices, are very highly qualified in the field of dog behaviour. They are not electricians, if that is what you mean, nor are they lazy trainers who are looking for a quick fix.


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## tiny (Feb 1, 2011)

I just dont get why anyone would buy a product that would deliberatley hurt their dog!! But each to their own. In Northern Ireland a rehoming centre wouldnt let you have a dog if you were going to let it roam freely over such a vast area without supervision or if they knew you were going to use an electric shock fence!! I know Quillan thinks they did the right thing rescuing the dog and I hope it works out - but poor dog if it ever crosses that line and has to get shocked. Surely the dog would have a better quality of life in an enclosed smaller area and being allowed to run free on the rest of the land when the owner is with it. But as I said each to their own - I just wouldnt want to be that dog living with its"loving devoted" owner.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Quillan said:


> Actually I have tried it and it's not that painful plus after a while you don't have to use the shock, the tone is all that's required and the fence is well marked


If as slight tone was all that was required, you wouldn't need the shock element. You train them to fear the shock. They know what the tone means may happen and hope to avoid it. Anything else is just blather and self delusion.

You don't seem to understand what effect and unexplained and sudden shocking pain, out of the blue, can then do to the dog, how it can undermine it's confidence and feeling of security, in what ought to be it's place of safety and security - at home.

As for your comments about "experts" you are discounting the advice given by professional bodies - AVSAB: Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing with Behavior Problems in Animals

Furthermore you're actually recommending this to people you know and publicising it.



AVSAB said:


> Punishment is frequently a first-line or an early-use tool by both the general public and traditional dog trainers. While punishment can be very effective in some specific contexts depending on the individual animal, it can be associated with many serious adverse effects
> ...
> The adverse effects of punishment and the difficulties in administering punishment effectively have been well documented,1 especially in the early 1960s when such experiments were still allowed. For instance, if the punishment is not strong enough, the animal may habituate or get used to it, so that the owner needs to escalate the intensity.2,3 On the other hand, when the punishment is more intense, it can cause physical injury. For instance, electronic anti-bark collars can cause burn marks on dogs.


I suppose you just dismiss this body's position statment to?

When ppl like Terry told you the possible consequences, you just said that she clearly did not know what she was talking about and slagged off her written English! If you had not have done that, a whole lot of us would have rather stayed ouf of this thread and left it at that.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> This shock stuff is not legal in the UK, just may be the Kennel Club & Government ppl who looked into all this, did that for good reason.
> 
> Fences, are visible to the dog and don't myseteriously zap them, even after a warning which they must be trained to understand, in order that they retreat from the area.


What rubbish, they are not illegal except in Wales.


newfiesmum said:


> Shock collars have been banned in Wales and we hope to ban them in the UK, but shock fences, as far as I know, have not been banned anywhere. If they have, how come farmers can still use them around their sheep to keep dogs out?
> 
> The puzzle is why people come here asking for advice about stuff and then go off and do their own thing anyway.


Electric fences are used a lot for sheep and horses - not to keep dogs out! They give a far harder shock that shock collars do but they do the job they are needed for.
I dont think the OP came for ADVICE, they wanted to hear from people that had used the boundary fences, not those that just hate the idea of them.
apparently plenty of people on here have pmd to say they use them successfully but obvously cant be bothered with the verbal abuse they will get if they admit it.

OP, I am glad it has worked. I have never seen one in action and not sure if I would have the courage to trust it but I think the principle is good if used correctly and I have heard of people that have had great success with it. There is a company advertising in our local paper every week but I dont know if anyone has got one.
I dont understand the mentality that thinks it better for the dog to be in a small enclosed space rather than wander around in what sounds idyllic surroundings. If I was a dog I would rather learn my boundaries with a bit of discomfort and then have a lovely life.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I dont think the OP came for ADVICE, they wanted to hear from people that had used the boundary fences, not those that just hate the idea of them


You haven't read his first post then where he finds "the thought fills him with horror".

It's very funny you characterising verbal abuse, because if you look you'll see which side resorted to "Your talking about something you know nothing about", or words like "rubbish"; and just dismissed all the invonvenient evidence or expert opinion by practicing behavourits.

6 months and £20,000 in Wales for an explicitly criminal offence, how long before the rest of the country catches up?


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Timeline of the Electric Shock Collar Campaign - The Kennel Club


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Thank you, so the Kennel Club are actively seeking to make them illegal.
Hardly a recommendation for a product is it?


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Watch this guy trying out the shock collar;

YouTube - Stupid Human Shock Collar

It's funny and he actually won the ten grand on AFV, but you can see exactly how painful it is.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> You haven't read his first post then where he finds "the thought fills him with horror".
> 
> It's very funny you characterising verbal abuse, because if you look you'll see which side resorted to "Your talking about something you know nothing about", or words like "rubbish"; and just dismissed all the invonvenient evidence or expert opinion by practicing behavourits.
> 
> 6 months and £20,000 in Wales for an explicitly criminal offence, how long before the rest of the country catches up?


There was also another post (now deleted) in which the OP referred to me as being, and I quote 'obviously stupid'. Defending your opinion is one thing, but hurling personal insults at anyone and everyone who chooses to disagree with you is another.

As I see it, the OP asked for advice about these devices because they had no experience of them, then when they were given that advice by people who did have the relevant experience, such as Terry, they did not like it and chose to dismiss it out of hand. I would also question the 'threatening' PM's that they claim to have received, I cannot imagine any PF members going to such extremes and if they did, surely this would be a matter for admin.

I have said it a hundred times and I will say it a hundred more, whether they work or not is irrelevant, the fact is that they teach the dog by inflicting physical pain and again, the amount of pain is irrelevant. Just because something works doesn't make it the right thing to do, if it did, then we would still have the death penalty and corporal punishment in schools.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> 6 months and £20,000 in Wales for an explicitly criminal offence, how long before the rest of the country catches up?


I think that if you look at maximum fines and prison sentence for a lot of 'crimes' you might be quite surprised. they are not policed though and I very much doubt if this one will be.



Jasper's Bloke said:


> I have said it a hundred times and I will say it a hundred more, whether they work or not is irrelevant, the fact is that they teach the dog by inflicting physical pain and again, the amount of pain is irrelevant. Just because something works doesn't make it the right thing to do, if it did, then we would still have the death penalty and corporal punishment in schools.


Maybe if we still had corporal punishment there would be less crime. When kids know they can get away with murder (literally in some cases) they are not likely to conform to what us adults think of as normal.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

You know, a few years ago, before I knew any better, I looked into these invisible fences for an acquaintance. They were advertised having having a bleeping sound; I cannot remember anything about a shock. I have also known people who have been advised by "trainers" to purchase an e-collar, they are careful not to call it a shock collar, and told that it is in no way painful, just gives out a warning and a tickle. Now, maybe it is my honest nature, but if people need to resort to subterfuge they obviously know the thing is wrong, yet they continue to sell them and continue to recommend them. I find that quite bizarre, personally.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I think that if you look at maximum fines and prison sentence for a lot of 'crimes' you might be quite surprised. they are not policed though and I very much doubt if this one will be


And noone was fined for drowning a squirrel and it wasn't policed, until someone was convicted for animal cruelty and got into the papers.

It will be much easier proving someone has a shock collar on their dog, when they are outside in non-fenced ground. You think a rescue shelter will be sympathetic to the owner, when they find a zapped pet straying in such collar after it bolted and scan the microchip?

I haven't yet seen any study showing these collars are safe or humane, and those advocating them, have had plenty of chance to put up some evidence, rather than just rubbishing people who disagree with them.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> And noone was fined for drowning a squirrel and it wasn't policed, until someone was convicted for animal cruelty and got into the papers.
> 
> It will be much easier proving someone has a shock collar on their dog, when they are outside in non-fenced ground. You think a rescue shelter will be sympathetic to the owner, when they find a zapped pet straying in such collar after it bolted and scan the microchip?
> 
> I haven't yet seen any study showing these collars are safe or humane, and those advocating them, have had plenty of chance to put up some evidence, rather than just rubbishing people who disagree with them.


I dont think the point is whether one agrees or not with them - I said that you would be surprised at the penalties for a lot of crimes but no one will get the penalty and it wont be policed in the first place.
Are you sure you are right about the maximum fine, it seems a very big fine compared with the jail sentence. I very much doubt if welsh farmers will stop using the collars anyway.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> It would appear that your last post has been deleted, and rightly so.


I always seem to miss this sort of drama  probably directed at me too?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Blitz said:


> but no one will get the penalty and it wont be policed in the first place


I don't think the guy who was fined for drowning the squirrel would advies you to rely on that.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Quillan said:


> I also had two very abusive and threatening PM's which I binned straight away.
> You know who you are and you should be ashamed.


rather than pitch them, U should immediately report them to the mods - no one is allowed to do that. 
- terry


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Exactly, we want the debate to be rational, and on how these type of collars work and the side effects eg) those friends dogs who were shocked in the car.

If people are making threats, then it allows the advocates for such systems deflect attention away from the drawbacks and unreliability of such methods. Rather than insult the people in PM, find something to inform.

The people who are attracted to punishing dogs because they find it convenient, will not be swayed, but undecided pet owners may avoid being seduced by glossy sales pitches or be given strength of conviction to avoid an aversive method when being advised by a Dog Trainer in apparent position of authority.


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