# UK benefits system discussion



## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

What is your opinion regarding the current UK benefits system (JSA, housing benefits, universal credit, child tax credit etc). Do you think it is an easily exploitable system? If so, what would suggest to make it less exploitable?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Well what do you think?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I think there’s enough to row about on the forum at the moment with Brexit ......

:Locktopic

:Happy


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

rona said:


> Well what do you think?


My opinion on the topic is that yes, the system is easily exploitable as it give SOME people the option to choose benefits as a lifestyle. My suggestion would be to introduce a voucher system whereby people only get money in the form of vouchers to meet basic needs such as foods food, shelter and a certain amount for bills. Anything other than basic (i.e. holidays, alcohol, dining out) is a privilege which you would only access if you have more disposable income i.e. if you work.

Job centres should check in with their clients more often to make sure they are supplying enough evidence that they are actually looking for a job. In the meanwhile, JSA claimants could do voluntary work/ community work as a way to help the community and 'repay' the state. The only income I think you should entitled to is money from your own national insurance. Once that runs out you would be only entitled to vouchers.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

I think that would be unfair to sick and vulnerable claimants that have to claim benefits through the Job Centers Universal Credit as they have extra living costs and are unable to work because of illness and have to go through reassessments which are stressful enough for them on top of their long term illnesses or disabilities.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

Lurcherlad said:


> I think there's enough to row about on the forum at the moment with Brexit ......


Agreed but leaving the system as it is does not help the country's economy. Brexit just adds to the current number of issues that need to be addressed to improve the country's economy as a whole. There needs to be more focus on addressing internal issues IMO.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think before they concern themselves with people misusing the system, they need to sort out a decent, simple and caring system for the elderly and disabled. At the moment it’s absolutely scandalous that people in dire need and unable to help themselves are being abandoned and left in a terrible state. Sort that out, so that my tax money is making sure that people in genuine need are cared for, then worry about the rest. I personally don’t mind paying a bit extra to cover scumbags while they sort the system out. Better that than some poor soul dies due to neglect.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Grossly wrong and unfair with Bedroom taxes and the likes. People relying on foodbanks is another scandal that certain mega rich people regard as, "Uplifting". It shouldn't be happening in a so called rich nation. Well, most of the elite own around 95% of the UK's wealth as it is.

A certain group of people I call, "Public Sector Celebrities" receive millions in benefits and given rent free mansion-like accomodation. They are not forced to look for work to qualify for their lavish lifestyles.

With the exception of that lot, having to live on benefits for whatever reason, is not the joy and pleasure the likes of the Daily Mial would have you believing.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

saartje said:


> I think that would be unfair to sick and vulnerable claimants that have to claim benefits through the Job Centers Universal Credit as they have extra living costs and are unable to work because of illness and have to go through reassessments which are stessful enough for them on top of their long term illnesses or disabilities.
> 
> That is all I am saying on the subject.


Agreed but I believe reassessments are necessary to make sure that people claiming disability allowance are indeed unfit to work. There are many instances where people could do some form of work (depending on their impairment/ disability) which would also give them the chance to feel part of the community. In terms of people with mental illnesses the NHS should cover extra costs for medications if required (as in Scotland). I don't think that people with mental illnesses should isolate themselves as to alleviate their mental illnesses. I'd rather the money went into programmes to rehabilitate people with mental illnesses so that they be reintegrated into the community and work environment (isolation is only a short term solution to the problem IMO).


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

What about people in chronic pain, so severe they cannot do things for themselves and medication does not ease? My parents know someone in England like this and help him out by doing shopping etc for him. The DWP have just finished doing their assessments on him and had to send someone out to his house to see how he copes at home. The assessors prognosis:- never able to work again. Vouchers simply would not work for those that are disabled and long term ill. His benefits by the way are assessed on his national insurance contributions and income and savings (income being benefits). They continue to pay his national insurance so he might be able to get a pension if he manages to cope until he is a pensioner and doesn't do anything drastic inbetween. He also suffers from chronic depression due to the pain and other illnesses he has suffered from. Your ideas don't suit everyones circumstances and you come across that you are very anti benefits to those that do genuinely need them.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Let's get the able bodied into work before we start saying severely incapacitated people should get a job hey?

https://www.theguardian.com/society...e-for-telling-seriously-ill-man-to-find-a-job

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/04/dying-man-told-fit-work-benefits-slashed-half-9412859/

https://www.lep.co.uk/health/chorle...un-told-he-s-fit-to-go-back-to-work-1-9802002

https://metro.co.uk/2017/10/11/blin...wp-after-she-was-deemed-fit-for-work-6993524/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...men-suicide-benefits-disability-a8577306.html

https://www.theguardian.com/society...stores-benefit-payments-to-acid-attack-victim


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

From what I understand Universal Credit is an umbrella benefit as people have been moved from Job Seekers Allowance, income Support, Tax Credits, Income Related and Employment and Support Allowance and housing benefits on to it. So when you say Universal Credit it also means all of the above. Income Related Employment and Support was for disabled and long term ill but is now Universal Credit. So you cannot distinguish who on Universal Credit was on what.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

Elles said:


> Let's get the able bodied into work before we start saying severely incapacitated people should get a job hey?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...e-for-telling-seriously-ill-man-to-find-a-job
> 
> ...


I never stated that severely incapacitated people should be working. I said that some people are capable of doing some sort of job if their disability is not severe enough. It is granted that people who are capable of working and are not impaired should work and not 'choose to be on benefits'. I do not want to take benefits away from people who actually need them but some people (with no disability physical nor mental) exploit the system. The point of my post was to discuss a way forward that is fair and does not take away from people who do need the support.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I never stated that severely incapacitated people should be working. I said that some people are capable of doing some sort of job if their disability is not severe enough. It is granted that people who are capable of working and are not impaired should work and not 'choose to be on benefits'. I do not want to take benefits away from people who actually need them but some people (with no disability physical not mental) exploit the system. The point of my post was to discuss a way forward that is fair and does not take away from people who do need the support.


From what I understand from Universal Credit the sick and disabled have to claim it because they can no longer get Income Related Employment and Support allowance.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

Over here in the Netherlands when you apply for benefits you get one payment per month extra money is availble to those that are unwell or sick and is added onto that monthly payment. This is very much like the United Kingdoms Universal Credit system but has been out since before I moved here in 1999. Those claiming out of work benefits has been dropping year on year here and the Netherlands does have a very low unemployment rate.

I have never had the need to claim any state benefits in either the United Kingdom or the Netherlands.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Agreed bu*t I believe reassessments are necessary to make sure that people claiming disability allowance are indeed unfit to work.* There are many instances where people could do some form of work (depending on their impairment/ disability) which would also give them the chance to feel part of the community.


I have to disagree with this, having seen people in great pain and short of money because of the system, having to struggle to reassessments many miles away from where they live even when they have a worsening diagnosis and can't possibly have got better.
You also need the jobs for them to do and employers willing to employ them. I've worked in a work environment with mildly disabled people, both physically and mentally. It takes a huge commitment from an employer and their staff.
One lad came to us after being horribly bullied at Tesco, he was with us for 15 years until the firm shut down.



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I don't think that people with mental illnesses should isolate themselves as to alleviate their mental illnesses..


If I was suffering from some form of mental illness, surrounding me with people would make me feel much much worse.
Not everyone is a social butterfly

I do agree with you about a voucher system for essentials but would do it as a percentage of the benefit not the whole.

The trouble is, there's so many variables


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Omg!
As a service user (claimant)
I shall be watching this with hands duct taped to desk, so I don't reply and get banned
I will type this and only this
If you think people on UC, pips, ESA, job seekers et all are......
Milking the system
Having it large
Have a cushty life compared with those who work
Knocking back the alcohol
Having three holidays a year
Smoking like chimneys
Etc
Then you've never tried to exist on it ( cos believe me, it ain't living) or tried to apply for it
BTW, internet access is no longer an "extra"
Without internet access no one can interact with UC, it ALL has to be done online
You can actually be sanctioned for not being logged online for long enough



> In terms of people with mental illnesses the NHS should cover extra costs for medications if required (as in Scotland). I don't think that people with mental illnesses should isolate themselves as to alleviate their mental illnesses. I'd rather the money went into programmes to rehabilitate people with mental illnesses so that they be reintegrated into the community and work environment (isolation is only a short term solution to the problem IMO).


You Sir/madam are a total ass and the kind of person who caused me, 6 weeks ago, to have to give someone life saving treatment, whilst they vomited blood and had seizures due to taking a massive overdose
Guess what
This person worked full time and didn't claim a penny in benefits
But because of *********like you and your out moded ideas re mh, she felt she had no other recourse but to end her life
Do you know what its like to walk in on your best friend and find her covered in vomit, grey/blue, waxen, not breathing and have to fight to bring her back, whilst waiting for 20 mins for the nearest paramedic to arrive?
Watch in ICU, whilst drs and nurses fight against what she'd taken for nearly 24hrs, so as to not lose her again, watch her on a ventilator for another 48hrs, see her sectioned for 4 weeks, with memory problems, liver problems, heart problems, unable to cope with someone even speaking to her in a kind way, all because of being driven to doing something stupid, because people like you think those suffering from mh problems need to
"Pull themselves together and sort themselves out"
You are a Banker and a barsteward, with less intelligence than a tardigrade in suspended animation

Edit to add: sorry mods but this ass has hit a raw nerve right now


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> What is your opinion regarding the current UK benefits system (JSA, housing benefits, universal credit, child tax credit etc). Do you think it is an easily exploitable system? If so, what would suggest to make it less exploitable?


Why do you want to know?

ETA


> The point of my post was to discuss a way forward that is fair and does not take away from people who do need the support.


Um , unless you are aiming to become PM or something , I really don't your or members' opinion will change anything.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

I thought with the first post on this thread that the original poster was just going to very anti state benefits. Benefits are meant to be there to help people not to penalise them and make their lives worse. I know people on benefits do struggle to make ends meet with the little money they get from the Government and to be narrow minded about people on benefits I just hope the person who originally made this thread finds themself in a situation that they have to claim state benefits one day and they will then find out how hard it is for those that do have to claim state benefits. Would he/she being happy being paid in vouchers then?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Im kinda middle of the road on this one, its not the best system but its not the worst either.
Sure some people seem to have a PhD in getting their moneys worth out of the government but it seems like far more people come of worse. Maybe because they dont know what they are entitled to or because they are deemed to be much better off then they are, either health wise or financially.
Although if it was down to me Id be taxing that richest 10% up the wazoo and funneling the money back into looking after those who need it. Nobody gets that rich by doing charity work!LOL:Hilarious


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> You are a Banker and a barsteward, with less intelligence than a tardigrade in suspended animation


To be fair to OP, if the only people you have had experience of claiming benefit are pulling the wool, there are plenty about, then your opinion is going to be about them.
I only knew claimants like this until fairly recently. One lived for 20 years on the state while abusing his daughter, two were young girls churning out kids to get a flat/house, another was a long term alcoholic. I knew all these people personally, they weren't stories I'd heard. I now know of two druggies living off my hard earned cash, neither of which come from bad backgrounds.
So while I now know several genuine and suffering claimants. I don't think it's the OP to blame,rather those that have been allowed to abuse the system


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

saartje said:


> I just hope the person who originally made this thread finds themself in a situation that they have to claim state benefits one day


That's not nice is it?

Why wish that on anyone


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2019)

rona said:


> That's not nice is it?
> 
> Why wish that on anyone


Then they would truely know what it is like for people on benefits instead of being critical of everyone on benefits.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rona said:


> To be fair to OP, if the only people you have had experience of claiming benefit are pulling the wool, there are plenty about, then your opinion is going to be about them.
> I only knew claimants like this until fairly recently. One lived for 20 years on the state while abusing his daughter, two were young girls churning out kids to get a flat/house, another was a long term alcoholic. I knew all these people personally, they weren't stories I'd heard. I now know of two druggies living off my hard earned cash, neither of which come from bad backgrounds.
> So while I now know several genuine and suffering claimants. I don't think it's the OP to blame,rather those that have been allowed to abuse the system


that sentence was in the second reply to the op, in regard to his flippant, crass and, downright cruel remarks and attitude to those with mh problems
NOT
the first part I quoted
I signed that one off differently 
And
Said I would post no more on the subject
Maybe I should've separated it into two posts, but I didn't want to seem like I was 'thread hogging' by posting one reply after another
X


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> My opinion on the topic is that yes, the system is easily exploitable as it give SOME people the option to choose benefits as a lifestyle. My suggestion would be to introduce a voucher system whereby people only get money in the form of vouchers to meet basic needs such as foods food, shelter and a certain amount for bills. Anything other than basic (i.e. holidays, alcohol, dining out) is a privilege which you would only access if you have more disposable income i.e. if you work.
> 
> Job centres should check in with their clients more often to make sure they are supplying enough evidence that they are actually looking for a job. In the meanwhile, JSA claimants could do voluntary work/ community work as a way to help the community and 'repay' the state. The only income I think you should entitled to is money from your own national insurance. Once that runs out you would be only entitled to vouchers.


Easily exploitable? No I don't think so, at least not with the new system. (I don't think so anyway, but then I would never do such a thing)

Voucher system? No way, unless you mean just for those people who needed to 'sign up' on job seekers or something, then maybe that would be a good idea, but if you mean for all, including long term sick or disabled, then that's making things worse as you are basically telling disabled / long term sick what they can and can not spend their money on and telling them they can't have hobbies, pets, go on holiday etc



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Agreed but I believe reassessments are necessary to make sure that people claiming disability allowance are indeed unfit to work. There are many instances where people could do some form of work (depending on their impairment/ disability) which would also give them the chance to feel part of the community. In terms of people with mental illnesses the NHS should cover extra costs for medications if required (as in Scotland). I don't think that people with mental illnesses should isolate themselves as to alleviate their mental illnesses. I'd rather the money went into programmes to rehabilitate people with mental illnesses so that they be reintegrated into the community and work environment (isolation is only a short term solution to the problem IMO).


For some people being around others is a major drain and can make their mental health worse, forcing them to have to be around others would for some be a one way ticket into hospital or worse.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

rona said:


> To be fair to OP, if the only people you have had experience of claiming benefit are pulling the wool, there are plenty about, then your opinion is going to be about them.
> I only knew claimants like this until fairly recently. One lived for 20 years on the state while abusing his daughter, two were young girls churning out kids to get a flat/house, another was a long term alcoholic. I knew all these people personally, they weren't stories I'd heard. I now know of two druggies living off my hard earned cash, neither of which come from bad backgrounds.
> So while I now know several genuine and suffering claimants. I don't think it's the OP to blame,rather those that have been allowed to abuse the system


There are some that take the system for all it's worth, and yes, @mrs phas , sorry but yes they smoke like chimneys and drink.

But I'm pretty sure that these are just the visible (and don't help the majority) minority. It's a shame that this is the stereotype that gets transmitted. But it is the stereotype, as they are the ones most people will see.

Perhaps more work is needed to help draw attention to the quiet majority trying to make do with what they have and in a lot of cases not succeeding.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Perhaps more work is needed to help draw attention to the quiet majority trying to make do with what they have and in a lot of cases not succeeding.


A bit like the working poor


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> My opinion on the topic is that yes, the system is easily exploitable as it give SOME people the option to choose benefits as a lifestyle. My suggestion would be to introduce a voucher system whereby people only get money in the form of vouchers to meet basic needs such as foods food, shelter and a certain amount for bills. Anything other than basic (i.e. holidays, alcohol, dining out) is a privilege which you would only access if you have more disposable income i.e. if you work.
> 
> Job centres should check in with their clients more often to make sure they are supplying enough evidence that they are actually looking for a job. In the meanwhile, JSA claimants could do voluntary work/ community work as a way to help the community and 'repay' the state. The only income I think you should entitled to is money from your own national insurance. Once that runs out you would be only entitled to vouchers.


The voucher system was touted quite a while ago, I remember reading about it, but not sure if it ever took off.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MilleD said:


> There are some that take the system for all it's worth, and yes, @mrs phas , sorry but yes they smoke like chimneys and drink.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure that these are just the visible (and don't help the majority) minority. It's a shame that this is the stereotype that gets transmitted. But it is the stereotype, as they are the ones most people will see.
> 
> Perhaps more work is needed to help draw attention to the quiet majority trying to make do with what they have and in a lot of cases not succeeding.


i didnt say they didnt, i said its not all about that
if people have to smoke to exist, who are you and i to say different?
no one tells those in paid work at minimum wage how to spend their money, 
even though they may be, 
in fact, if they have a child or partner, 
probably are, 
getting a UC top up

maybe people dont realise that
those on UC who are seeking work 
or 
in the 'disabled but good for work' catagories, 
are actually 
expected to spend 8 hours, per day, searching for work, this is their 'job', 
as their benefit is classed as payment for searching, paid at less than minimum wage,
*NOT a hand out,*
thats why they give sanctions if you miss a day or an appointment, you are classed as
' breaching your terms of UC'
hence why internet is classed as a need nowadays
and yes they do check up, whether in person or by a computer programme

sorry, my mouth is, as promised, zipped again


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rona said:


> That's not nice is it?
> 
> Why wish that on anyone


No, it won't change things for anyone, it won't make things better because someone else is having a crap time (unless you believe in karma, which I don't).


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MilleD said:


> But it is the stereotype, as they are the ones most people will see.


The others don't make such interesting and scandalous reading. These are the ones people want to read about as the others are rather boring.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahatma Gandhi *Quote*: "The true measure of any *society* can be found in how it *treats its* most *vulnerable* members."

We're not doing a very good job at the moment, that's for sure 

Yes, we need to make it hard for scumbags to milk the system, but more importantly we need to ensure genuine claimants are not disadvantaged and receive adequate assistance.

The system stinks.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Has anyone watched Rich kids go skint or Rich kids on the streets. I know they only get a snapshot of another world but some of them are genuinely surprised at why others live like they do. One I watched the other day thought she'd be off the streets within hours by getting a job, she quickly learned that without an address or passport, she wasn't able to get off the streets. Same goes for the trap that some are in on benefits, they go in thinking that to all it's a life choice.

I think all politicians should go though at least a week in the shoes of the poor as they are obviously making decisions from a skewed view of why people are poor


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

My daughter's friend had a baby a year ago she is 21 yrs old ,she is on universal credit she gets £816 per month out of this she pays £409 per month for rent,£68 for council tax,£64 for water,£12 for tv license,£60 for electric and £60 for gas once all this is paid she has £143 left per month to pay for food,baby milk,nappies,wipes,food for baby and clothe the 2 of them she really struggles and feels quite isolated as sometimes she can't afford the bus fare to even visit her family she will sometimes go without eating herself to make sure the baby has everything she needs


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

niamh123 said:


> My daughter's friend had a baby a year ago she is 21 yrs old ,she is on universal credit she gets £816 per month out of this she pays £409 per month for rent,£68 for council tax,£64 for water,£12 for tv license,£60 for electric and £60 for gas once all this is paid she has £143 left per month to pay for food,baby milk,nappies,wipes,food for baby and clothe the 2 of them she really struggles and feels quite isolated as sometimes she can't afford the bus fare to even visit her family she will sometimes go without eating herself to make sure the baby has everything she needs


What on earth does she get for £409 a month rent?

Also, why are her utilities so high?


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

It's a housing association small 2 bedroom house the rent is £102.25,if she was to private rent she would be looking at £150 per week


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I know “sh*t happens” but why start a family when you’re not financially stable?


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

Her partner had a well paid job and they were in the middle of buying a house when her partner died of Sepsis they had been together since they were 12 yrs old and were devoted to each other


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

niamh123 said:


> Her partner had a well paid job and they were in the middle of buying a house when her partner died of Sepsis they had been together since they were 12 yrs old and were devoted to each other


That's sad. Is anyone helping her? 
I really do think she needs to look at her utility bills though. Maybe swapping provider for her Electricity & gas. My old company wanted to charge me £90 a month and my new provider is just £60. That's for heating, hot water and running all devices 
Her water needs to also be checked as well, maybe there's a leak. My bill is half of that with two of us here


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

rona said:


> I have to disagree with this, having seen people in great pain and short of money because of the system, having to struggle to reassessments many miles away from where they live even when they have a worsening diagnosis and can't possibly have got better.
> You also need the jobs for them to do and employers willing to employ them. I've worked in a work environment with mildly disabled people, both physically and mentally. It takes a huge commitment from an employer and their staff.
> One lad came to us after being horribly bullied at Tesco, he was with us for 15 years until the firm shut down.


I get your point but there are documented instances where people fraudulently claim disability allowance. I understand that it is stressful for people who are actually impaired but there is no other way to prevent SOME people to make false claims (I capped some to highlight a portion of disability allowance claimants so please do not misinterpret my message)


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I get your point but there are documented instances where people fraudulently claim disability allowance. *I understand that it is stressful for people who are actually impaired* but there is no other way to prevent SOME people to make false claims (I capped some to highlight a portion of disability allowance claimants so please do not misinterpret my message)


No, you don't. You clearly have no idea how difficult and demeaning it is for genuinely disabled people to go through the assessment process time and time again.

Having your most intimate details itemised and judged by people who know nothing about your condition and have a quota to make for rejecting claimants.
Having your benefits slashed because you missed an assessment due to being in hospital with a very sick child.
Being asked - more than once - when the doctors think will recover when you suffer from a lifetime degenerative condition.
Being told you because you're disabled you don't need to go out like normal people do so you should be able to live on less money anyway.
To be told you're lying because the assessor knew someone else with the same condition and they didn't have the same symptoms
To have expert and specialist medical reports ignored.
KNOWING the assessor will probably lie on the assessment form.
The stress of the almost inevitable appeal, where most decisions are overturned and the awared that should have been made in the first place is reinstated.

All the above are situations people I know personally have been through. In fact, every single genuine disability allowance claimant I've ever encountered has at least one similar story.

So no. You *don't* understand.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If your gp and the specialists treating you say you’re not fit to work, take their word for it and stop with this nonsense.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> Omg!
> As a service user (claimant)
> I shall be watching this with hands duct taped to desk, so I don't reply and get banned
> I will type this and only this
> ...


I am aware that people on universal tax credit "don't have it cushty" but I also see things that SOME choose this lifestyle because they cannot be bothered to work. This might sound very offensive to you but let's consider my friend's example.

She has been unemployed for 9 months now. She has had a very spotty history of employment and, as a matter of fact, she cannot keep a job for more than 2 months due to absenteeism and and unprofessional conduct. She gets up at 3 p.m. every day and plays the xbox all night. She has been on 4 holidays this year all paid by other people while claiming benefits. She has purposefully messed up her job interviews so she would not be employed. Her mum is the same. Her half-brother just so happens to be the same.

I work full-time and I have not been on any holidays this year. I get up early to go to work and to get the job I have I have today I had to study and work at the same time. I have had many nights where I had to stay up to study for an exam or work on assignments. My friend has done two government funded courses but has not completed them.
Do you think it is fair that people like that get benefits which come off the wages of people who have some decency to get up and work and be a part of society? You might argue that people like my friend (and her relatives) is a minority of the claimants but, even if that is the case, does it mean that they deserve anything?

I am condoning this minority who exploits the system to their advantage due to sheer laziness and self-entitled behaviour. Do you support people like this? 
The original intent of my post was to discuss how to address people who exploit the system when they choose to make a lifestyle choice. I did not say that EVERYONE exploits it and I am not against people who genuinely have no other option other than being on universal credits.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

Jesthar said:


> No, you don't. You clearly have no idea how difficult and demeaning it is for genuinely disabled people to go through the assessment process time and time again.
> 
> Having your most intimate details itemised and judged by people who know nothing about your condition and have a quota to make for rejecting claimants.
> Having your benefits slashed because you missed an assessment due to being in hospital with a very sick child.
> ...


You are seeing things through your perspective or through the perspective of someone close to you but you need to look at the bigger picture. If you do not do any reassessments what will stop people from making false claims?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Agreed but leaving the system as it is does not help the country's economy. Brexit just adds to the current number of issues that need to be addressed to improve the country's economy as a whole. There needs to be more focus on addressing internal issues IMO.


*There was nothing wrong with the system, well nothing like we have been lead to believe. The government have wasted far more money "trying" to sort it out than those that cheat the system costs. So many people believe the bull we are fed, and then wonder why things have gone wrong. People on benefits these days are ALL seen as scoungers, which is so far from the truth. *


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am aware that people on universal tax credit "don't have it cushty" but I also see things that SOME choose this lifestyle because they cannot be bothered to work. *This might sound very offensive to you but let's consider my friend's example.*
> 
> She has been unemployed for 9 months now. She has had a very spotty history of employment and, as a matter of fact, she cannot keep a job for more than 2 months due to absenteeism and and unprofessional conduct. She gets up at 3 p.m. every day and plays the xbox all night. She has been on 4 holidays this year all paid by other people while claiming benefits. She has purposefully messed up her job interviews so she would not be employed. Her mum is the same. Her half-brother just so happens to be the same.
> 
> ...





Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> *You are seeing things through your perspective or through the perspective of someone close to you but you need to look at the bigger picture.* If you do not do any reassessments what will stop people from making false claims?


I think you need to take your own advice


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Elles said:


> If your gp and the specialists treating you say you're not fit to work, take their word for it and stop with this nonsense.


That can also be tricky, I know people who have their GP at their beck and call for a FIT note at work.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

ForestWomble said:


> Easily exploitable? No I don't think so, at least not with the new system. (I don't think so anyway, but then I would never do such a thing)
> 
> Voucher system? No way, unless you mean just for those people who needed to 'sign up' on job seekers or something, then maybe that would be a good idea, but if you mean for all, including long term sick or disabled, then that's making things worse as you are basically telling disabled / long term sick what they can and can not spend their money on and telling them they can't have hobbies, pets, go on holiday etc





3dogs2cats said:


> I think you need to take your own advice


What would you do to avoid fraudulent claims then? Take someone's word for it?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

MilleD said:


> That can also be tricky, I know people who have their GP at their beck and call for a FIT note at work.


So what tbh. I'm sure it's a small minority and in that case the health professionals should be taken to task, not severely disabled people forced to travel for assessments.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Any system is exploitable.

Have you had experience with the benefit system?

Do you seriously think people that inclined not to work and, or to spend money on their addictions would be bothered by the introduction of vouchers? No - they'd sell them or turn to crime to fund their habits, if they haven't already.

Yet the innocent people who are just trying to get by day to day - such as disabled people are the ones the changes cause the most harm to. Why should they have the humiliation of using vouchers?
What if they own pets, pet food, vet bills, pet items? What about if an appliance breaks, TV, microwave, oven, fridge freezer or other large household items such as sofas, beds, or are disabled people not allowed such 'luxuries'? What about paying for public transport to get around? What if they're housebound?
Disabled people haven't dreamt up their disability - they should be allowed to live as normal life as possible, they already have enough to deal with.

A close family member is disabled - they can be reassessed every 6 months, luckily it's been every 4 years due to her disabilities and the fact the assessment centre is very busy. Reassessment involves filling out a complex form, posting it back, seeing someone to be assessed who also asks you questions - which is then sent off to someone to decide if you have enough points to continue getting that money. 
Sounds easy? However in reality it's mentally exhausting and humiliating - imagine writing down and telling a complete stranger everything you're incapable of doing, your daily personal struggles, trying to scrape together evidence from the doctors helping to treat/manage your condition, then having that worry for months if they are going to lose any money that they've been dependent on since the last assessment. Or expecting and preparing yourself for the assessment appointment - which can be extremely stressful for many with disabilities, for it then to be cancelled on the day or while you're waiting in the waiting room.

No claiming disability benefits isn't easy - anyone who thinks it is, probably has never had to claim or had anyone close to them go through it.

Medication doesn't 'fix' every mental health problem - vast majority of the time, it helps make life more manageable but people can relapse and people still have bad times. NHS is already struggling, the mental health departments are underfunded and overloaded - which is why the Police are often trying to pick up the pieces. Often a 6+ month waiting list alone for CBT, even with counselling it's an extremely long wait and you're given a very small number of sessions - you have to be re-transferred and wait again, if you need more.

There are multiple issues - it isn't an issue of benefits alone.



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am aware that people on universal tax credit "don't have it cushty" but I also see things that SOME choose this lifestyle because they cannot be bothered to work. This might sound very offensive to you but let's consider my friend's example.
> 
> She has been unemployed for 9 months now. She has had a very spotty history of employment and, as a matter of fact, she cannot keep a job for more than 2 months due to absenteeism and and unprofessional conduct. She gets up at 3 p.m. every day and plays the xbox all night. She has been on 4 holidays this year all paid by other people while claiming benefits. She has purposefully messed up her job interviews so she would not be employed. Her mum is the same. Her half-brother just so happens to be the same.
> 
> ...


How do you know that benefits fund their lifestyle? 
How do you know there's nothing wrong? Sleeping problems can be very problematic. 
Why are you paying so much attention to their lifestyle if you're so busy?
If you think they are fraudulently claiming - report them. It's the only way to help solve the issue of people exploiting the system https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am aware that people on universal tax credit "don't have it cushty" but I also see things that SOME choose this lifestyle because they cannot be bothered to work. This might sound very offensive to you but let's consider my friend's example.
> 
> She has been unemployed for 9 months now. She has had a very spotty history of employment and, as a matter of fact, she cannot keep a job for more than 2 months due to absenteeism and and unprofessional conduct. She gets up at 3 p.m. every day and plays the xbox all night. She has been on 4 holidays this year all paid by other people while claiming benefits. She has purposefully messed up her job interviews so she would not be employed. Her mum is the same. Her half-brother just so happens to be the same.
> 
> ...


Whatever system is in place for anything, if it can be milked, there are some who will milk it for all it's worth. I know someone who sounds much like your friend. Gets everything that you can get, eight children by four fathers, never was expected to find a job as she always had young children to look after. When her children were teenagers, this is what she did: she got all the old-enough kids to go to their GP and tell him they wanted to stop smoking (they didn't smoke, or if they did, they did not want to quit) so they were prescribed something (think it was called Niquitin, but not 100% sure). She then proceeded to SELL the Niquitin (??) on eBay. She got her mother to do the same (different GP).
Like @ShibaPup and I said, if there's a system in place, someone will milk it. She was quite brazen about it, told several people but got away with it as far as I know!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

There but for the grace of God, goes I!

I used to get very upset with threads like these...the judgmental attitudes, the feeling that you need to explain your illness to any stranger that asks because "My money pays for your 'lifestyle'" and the constant feeling that you have to LOOK sick, but make sure you look sick enough or it's not enough!
I used to try to argue for those of us having to deal with this broken system...now I don't bother because judgmental people will always be judgmental...until the day that they have to experience it for themselves...

All these people that supposedly funding their lifestyles with benefits must know something that genuine claimants aren't aware of...All the issues this country has a moment yet some still feel the need to put down people that HAVE to claim benefits...lets forget that many people in work also have to claim benefits just so they can live, it's much better to concentrate on the minuscule few that rip people off 


Being a Judgey McJudgeypants is not a good look on anyone IMHO


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> There but for the grace of God, goes I!
> 
> I used to get very upset with threads like these...the judgmental attitudes, the feeling that you need to explain your illness to any stranger that asks because "My money pays for your 'lifestyle'" and the constant feeling that you have to LOOK sick, but make sure you look sick enough or it's not enough!
> I used to try to argue for those of us having to deal with this broken system...now I don't bother because judgmental people will always be judgmental...until the day that they have to experience it for themselves...
> ...


*I for one have never seen the people of this country so divided. It's a very sad state of affairs, and sadly i don't know if it will ever change back.*


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

ShibaPup said:


> Any system is exploitable.
> 
> Have you had experience with the benefit system?
> 
> ...


No, I do not have experience with claiming benefits, do you? 
The voucher system would only be for people on JSA and not disable people who would continue with their disability allowance. The voucher would only be claimed by the person it is addressed to so it could not be sold on. People who cannot afford to keep pets should not have them. In Scotland, if someone is on receipt of benefits they can take their pet to the SSPCA which covers vet bills ( limit is to one pet), I am not sure what system is in place in England.

Again, people with disabilities would not be worse off, they could actually be better off since the savings generated from the voucher system can be better utilised for people who need the money (including people with mental disorders). However, people claiming disability allowance do need to be assessed so as to avoid false declarations (there's no other way around it as you can't take someone's word for it). Unless you people are taking advantage of the system I do not see how my suggestion is detrimental to anyone who is genuinely in need. It takes money away from people exploiting the system and it gives it to people who need them.

I have a friend who is on receipt of benefits (her mum and half-brother also are). She spends her money on tobacco, alcohol and take-aways, she gets the rest of the food from food banks. She has been unemployed 9 months and has purposefully messed up job interviews because her needs (including non basic ones) are met. Do you think that is fair to tax payers? Why would she go back to work if she is capable to do what she is doing?

Again, my post is to address people who, like my friend, exploit the system and get away with it. Unemployment if you are fit and able to work should not be a life style choice but a temporary situation. You can't expect the government to subsidise that lifestyle.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> No, I do not have experience with claiming benefits, do you?
> The voucher system would only be for people on JSA and not disable people who would continue with their disability allowance. The voucher would only be claimed by the person it is addressed to so it could not be sold on. People who cannot afford to keep pets should not have them. In Scotland, if someone is on receipt of benefits they can take their pet to the SSPCA which covers vet bills ( limit is to one pet), I am not sure what system is in place in England.
> 
> Again, people with disabilities would not be worse off, they could actually be better off since the savings generated from the voucher system can be better utilised for people who need the money (including people with mental disorders). However, people claiming disability allowance do need to be assessed so as to avoid false declarations (there's no other way around it as you can't take someone's word for it). Unless you people are taking advantage of the system I do not see how my suggestion is detrimental to anyone who is genuinely in need. It takes money away from people exploiting the system and it gives it to people who need them.
> ...


*I would hate to see a voucher system in place. It's just another added embarrassment for people on benefits. As for how people spend their benefits, why should it bother anyone else, it's none of their business. People really need to worry more about their own lives and forget what others are doing with theirs. *


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

If you don't have any experience - how can you judge?

Voucher systems are degrading - why should someone else get to choose how people spend their money? Should your boss get to choose what you spend your money on? 
People get fake documents, fake IDs, do you think people wouldn't fake these vouchers either? Where there is money to be made - someone will take it.
Many people on benefits already feel isolated from their community - either due to health issues but also many have a fear of being judged by people like yourself.

As I said previously if you think they are fraudulently claiming - report them. It's the only way to help solve the issue of people exploiting the system https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

If everyone who knew someone exploiting the system reported them - there would be a lot less of them, problem solved, it's even anonymous


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> People who cannot afford to keep pets should not have them


What if they had them before they lost their income?



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> However, people claiming disability allowance do need to be assessed so as to avoid false declarations


People are classed disabled because they have some life limiting problem. Now while a good many would have very little problem finding their way to an assessment center, many other would really struggle either physically, financially or mentally
Why would you want to put someone who is already struggling with daily life, through something like this. Also if they have to go to multiples of these each year it makes them even less suitable for work


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

JANICE199 said:


> *I would hate to see a voucher system in place. It's just another added embarrassment for people on benefits. As for how people spend their benefits, why should it bother anyone else, it's none of their business. People really need to worry more about their own lives and forget what others are doing with theirs. *


Agree with the embarrassment factor.

I was on free school meals at school, with a points system so you had to work out what you could have. Then you had to tell the person on the till you were on free school meals in front of everyone.

I was always pretty hungry at school as I refused to let everyone know I was on free school meals.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

rona said:


> What if they had them before they lost their income?
> 
> People are classed disabled because they have some life limiting problem. Now while a good many would have very little problem finding their way to an assessment center, many other would really struggle either physically, financially or mentally
> Why would you want to put someone who is already struggling with daily life, through something like this. Also if they have to go to multiples of these each year it makes them even less suitable for work


They should have got them if they knew they did not have a stable situation or someone to help them out if they lost their income. Same applies for children. I know circumstances change but you need to account for alternative arrangements if things go wrong.

In terms of reassessments, they could arrange home visits and if it is a life-long condition then there is no need for assessments. It should only be for temporary disabilities.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> They should have got them if they knew they did not have a stable situation


I had a stable job for 20+ years before being made redundant, my OH for even more and he's going to be made redundant in a few weeks. How could we have foreseen these if we had bought a dog years earlier?
I have never claimed and My OH will not either but what if we had been 55-60 years old when made redundant. Many employers would take younger people as preference


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> What would you do to avoid fraudulent claims then?


There is an entire thread going on about people accidentally bringing home items they haven't paid for. 
Reading the thread, you realize that the huge, vast majority of people are honest and not out to take advantage of anyone.

As already stated, any system is exploitable. But most people are not out to exploit the system. There is no reason, other than petty unkindness, to make things even harder on those who use the system fairly in an attempt to solve a non-problem.

Why anyone not on benefits cares so much about how those on benefits use them is lost on me. Mind your own business, worry about the grass in your yard instead of peeking over your neighbor's fence all day.

Even better, if one has the extra time to look at what those on benefits are doing, why not use that time to volunteer at a soup kitchen or shelter and get some perspective?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MilleD said:


> Agree with the embarrassment factor.
> 
> I was on free school meals at school, with a points system so you had to work out what you could have. Then you had to tell the person on the till you were on free school meals in front of everyone.
> 
> I was always pretty hungry at school as I refused to let everyone know I was on free school meals.


Before hot dinners was the norm, one school I was involved in had those on free school dinners bring their empty lunch boxes in.. So they were just like everyone else. Which I thought was good. This was a primary school, and they did it to prevent bullying and embarrassment.

Most schools have card systems in secondary school, so everyone looks the same so to speak for meals. Far better in my opinion because you aren't the only person I know who has said this about free school meals.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> They should have got them if they knew they did not have a stable situation or someone to help them out if they lost their income. Same applies for children. I know circumstances change but you need to account for alternative arrangements if things go wrong.
> 
> *In terms of reassessments, they could arrange home visits and if it is a life-long condition then there is no need for assessments. It should only be for temporary disabilities*.


If only .........


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> They should have got them if they knew they did not have a stable situation or someone to help them out if they lost their income. Same applies for children. I know circumstances change but you need to account for alternative arrangements if things go wrong.
> 
> In terms of reassessments, they could arrange home visits and if it is a life-long condition then there is no need for assessments. It should only be for temporary disabilities.


Well, I'm glad that you seem to have a working crystal ball. Most don't have that luxury!

A lady I know was left paraplegic (borderline quadraplegic) after being mown down on the pavement by some imbecile of a drunk driver. A friend of mine has had her job (which she excels at and has had for decades), put at risk with no warning. A fit and healthy man collapsed and died in my dads arms with a heart attack. A boy at my school collapse and died in his fathers arms whisly playing weekend leage football due to an undiagnosed birth heart condition they were very lucky to find in autopsy. A newly married policeman was murdered just weeks ago. People just happened to go to work in the Twin Towers on the morning of 9/11, and travel on the London Underground on 7/7. Shall I go on?

Now, any chance of this weeks lottery numbers?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

lullabydream said:


> Before hot dinners was the norm, one school I was involved in had those on free school dinners bring their empty lunch boxes in.. So they were just like everyone else. Which I thought was good. This was a primary school, and they did it to prevent bullying and embarrassment.
> 
> Most schools have card systems in secondary school, so everyone looks the same so to speak for meals. Far better in my opinion because you aren't the only person I know who has said this about free school meals.


It was a few years back 

Mine was when I was in high school, and there was absolutely no chance I was letting everyone know....

I believe there is something called Parentpay now (at least in my area) where parent pay in advance online I think.

Far far better system.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> No, I do not have experience with claiming benefits,


That is very, very clear...maybe it would be best to know how the system runs (and not just daily fail opinions) before stating that it needs to be harder to get the help needed....all these ideas of how to stop unethical people getting money they shouldn't is all well and good, but all these new hoops to jump through will only effect those that NEED the help in the first place!

It's wrong and illegal to commit fraud...if the threat of a jail term doesn't stop people then how will new rules help?


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> As already stated, any system is exploitable. But most people are not out to exploit the system. There is no reason, other than petty unkindness, to make things even harder on those who use the system fairly in an attempt to solve a non-problem.


Are you saying it is okay for the people who exploit it to continue to do so since "it is the minority" and hence no reassessments are necessary?



O2.0 said:


> Why anyone not on benefits cares so much about how those on benefits use them is lost on me. Mind your own business, worry about the grass in your yard instead of peeking over your neighbor's fence all day.
> 
> Even better, if one has the extra time to look at what those on benefits are doing, why not use that time to volunteer at a soup kitchen or shelter and get some perspective?


I care the amount of money that could have been better utilised. I cared because I am a tax payer and I am aware of where my money is going and I would like to have a choice as to where that money is going. I care because I know of people who exploit the system and yet they go on 4 holidays a year, live in newly built council houses, have no responsibilities and get up in the afternoon, play videogames all day and still believe they are entitled to their benefits when they should make more of an effort to find a job instead of running away from responsibilities. I care because there are children who are growing up learning that there is no need to study, progress, put efforts into something (or work) as they can get away with it. As a matter of fact, my friend is on benefits and her brother (14) is planning on dropping out of school (like her sister did) and does not want to work and has no interest in studying either. I care because it is a matter of principles.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Are you saying it is okay for the people who exploit it to continue to do so since "it is the minority" and hence no reassessments are necessary?


No, it's not okay. But it's also none of my business. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find that we all exploit something in some way. 
BTW I'm in the US, we get virtually nothing compared to what you get in the UK. I see pros and cons to both types of systems.



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I care the amount of money that could have been better utilised. I cared because I am a tax payer and I am aware of where my money is going and I would like to have a choice as to where that money is going. I care because I know of people who exploit the system and yet they go on 4 holidays a year, live in newly built council houses, have no responsibilities and get up in the afternoon, play videogames all day and still believe they are entitled to their benefits when they should make more of an effort to find a job instead of running away from responsibilities. I care because there are children who are growing up learning that there is no need to study, progress, put efforts into something (or work) as they can get away with it. As a matter of fact, my friend is on benefits and her brother (14) is planning on dropping out of school (like her sister did) and does not want to work and has no interest in studying either. I care because it is a matter of principles.


You sound jealous. 
Would you want to live like that? 
Personally I wouldn't. I would go stir crazy without a job or a purpose. I hate videogames and the thought of sleeping until 3pm makes me nauseous. If someone wants to live that way, let them. Personally it sounds like a sad life and living it is punishment enough, or will be eventually. Not my business really.

As for what children learn, that's on them. I grew up in an abusive, alcoholic household. I did not grow up to be an abusive alcoholic. So there's that....


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Even if they made it far, far harder to claim, the people you describe would still be entitled to their benefits, so what are you doing wasting time, effort and money making people who are already struggling with all kinds of issues suffer more than they do already? 

People who are making fraudulent claims aren’t caught by making it harder for genuine claimants, or through tough assessments. They’re caught by their posting photos on Facebook, or people who know them reporting them.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Elles said:


> Even if they made it far, far harder to claim, the people you describe would still be entitled to their benefits, so what are you doing wasting time, effort and money making people who are already struggling with all kinds of issues suffer more than they do already?
> 
> People who are making fraudulent claims aren't caught by making it harder for genuine claimants, or through tough assessments. They're caught by their posting photos on Facebook, or people who know them reporting them.




*Oh if this was only true. I know of someone that sells drugs openly on FB and has been reported so many times i've lost count. This rubbish about clearing up benefit fraud is a lie.*


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I'm just in the process of claiming for PIP.
So far the checks have been thorough and extensive.
If you wanted to steal from the tax payer you would have to lie you ar×e off.
And even then you need the support of Drs & Medical professionals to back up your claim.
I am a genuine claimant and I still feel guilty for taking money (if they pass me)


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> I'm just in the process of claiming for PIP.
> So far the checks have been thorough and extensive.
> If you wanted to steal from the tax payer you would have to lie you ar×e off.
> And even then you need the support of Drs & Medical professionals to back up your claim.
> I am a genuine claimant and I still feel guilty for taking money (if they pass me)


Good luck with your claim.

I found the whole process exhausting but got through it in the end. Remember if you need to you can ask for a home assessment and you can have someone with you for support.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> I'm just in the process of claiming for PIP.
> So far the checks have been thorough and extensive.
> If you wanted to steal from the tax payer you would have to lie you ar×e off.
> And even then you need the support of Drs & Medical professionals to back up your claim.
> I am a genuine claimant and I still feel guilty for taking money (if they pass me)


Dont feel guilty . Pip can be claimed by anyone whether they are working or not.

There is an independent forum where you can get advice about filling in your form.

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> You sound jealous.
> Would you want to live like that?
> Personally I wouldn't. I would go stir crazy without a job or a purpose. I hate videogames and the thought of sleeping until 3pm makes me nauseous. If someone wants to live that way, let them. Personally it sounds like a sad life and living it is punishment enough, or will be eventually. Not my business really.


Not jealous at all as if I wanted to live like that I could just do what she does. As I explained, it is a matter of principles. I am encouraging her to find a job as I can see she is wasting her life away and I care because she is my friend. I can only do much but it is her choice at the end of the day. She messes up job interviews intentionally and applies for jobs she knows she'll never get all of which is not fraud.
Her brother looks up to her but I don't think he should as it is not a good life to live. I am trying to see things the way she sees them and discuss how the system could be changed to avoid exploitation and encourage people to get back into work.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Not jealous at all as if I wanted to live like that I could just do what she does. As I explained, it is a matter of principles. I am encouraging her to find a job as I can see she is wasting her life away and I care because she is my friend. I can only do much but it is her choice at the end of the day. She messes up job interviews intentionally and applies for jobs she knows she'll never get all of which is not fraud.
> Her brother looks up to her but I don't think he should as it is not a good life to live. I am trying to see things the way she sees them and discuss how the system could be changed to avoid exploitation and encourage people to get back into work.


If she is your friend, then be a friend to her. Trying to change someone who is not ready or able to change at this point is not friendly behavior.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I grew up with a criminal fraudster....she was a master manipulator.
She siphoned money from every which way that she could and that included convincing her family, friends, doctors, benefit assessors, police, solicitors, and the list goes on...she managed to get thousands fraudulently (not just from the government, her own children were not immune from her thieving ways).

No matter how many hoops she had to jump through she would jump, because the end goal was worth it in her mind...Unfortunately this woman is my mother (I use that word loosely in this case) but thankfully her lies caught up with her and she did end up serving time in prison.

Thieves have existed since the dawn of time....rules don't stop them, I'd argue that rules don't even slow them down!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@StormyThai Ive put a like to your post but I don't mean I like what your mum did. 
Im sorry you had to go through that .


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

It's TRUE if people want something (usually money or another human) bad enough not much is going to stop them.
They are one step ahead and don't even think of others.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh if this was only true. I know of someone that sells drugs openly on FB and has been reported so many times i've lost count. This rubbish about clearing up benefit fraud is a lie.*


Well, when they are caught of course.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Elles said:


> Well, when they are caught of course.


Hm !


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Not jealous at all as if I wanted to live like that I could just do what she does. As I explained, it is a matter of principles. I am encouraging her to find a job as I can see she is wasting her life away and I care because she is my friend. I can only do much but it is her choice at the end of the day. She messes up job interviews intentionally and applies for jobs she knows she'll never get all of which is not fraud.
> Her brother looks up to her but I don't think he should as it is not a good life to live. I am trying to see things the way she sees them and discuss how the system could be changed to avoid exploitation and encourage people to get back into work.


Who the hell are you to tell ANYONE, how to live their life, let alone someone you profess to be a friend to
You should support them, unconditionally, not nag them into believing they are worthless, their life is worthless, she has no principles and cannot be a peer to her brother
You, yes you, are an emotional abuser and control freak and by god I hope she wakes up and sees you for what you are, before you totally destroy her


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> Who the hell are you to tell ANYONE, how to live their life, let alone someone you profess to be a friend to
> You should support them, unconditionally, not nag them into believing they are worthless, their life is worthless, she has no principles and cannot be a peer to her brother
> You, yes you, are an emotional abuser and control freak and by god I hope she wakes up and sees you for what you are, before you totally destroy her


Yeas, yes indeed. Trust is everything.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow, great to see the blinkered views from some in their ivory towers on here.

The Daily Wail would have everyone believe that every other benefits claimant is a fraud who is squandering their hard earned tax on **** & holidays.

The ones we see in the news, on the TV, in magazines, on reality shows are the ones that make an interesting story, but they don't represent the whole of the system any more than Cesar Millan represents dog training. 

People want to be entertained, not watch the mundane lives of most of us.

My oldest daughter has a lifelong debilitating, painful health condition, alongside serious mental health issues, & she is in & out of hospital, but she was rejected, so anyone thinking it'ds easy jumping through those hoops & bemoans their tax money for people like her can take a long walk off a short pier.

For those of you waiting for your assessments, bless you & best of luck xxxx


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

For every bad apple there are many people that dont have any other option and would rather not depend on the state.

I was on job seekers a couple of years after leaving uni. I didnt have a job between then, but there was such a stigma to being on the dole, I didnt want to be one of "them" but I was having trouble finding anyone who would take me on. I felt useless and was completely broke. So I went on JSA. The money was helpful, but there was no quality of life. The staff looked at you like you were scum everytime you went in to sign on.

Every week I would apply for as many jobs that were in the area. And often every time you check there would not be many new postings. The courses were the worst for me. I would be very anxious about being in groups of people I had never met in my life. Most of them were nice though, in the same boat.

By the time I had finally got an interview I would be so nervous and self doubting. I'm embarrassed when I think back and remember how one of the interviewers said how "quiet and timid" I was. Every time I had one my mind would blank and go into panic mode. By then I was in a constant loop of anxiety.



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Are you saying it is okay for the people who exploit it to continue to do so since "it is the minority" and hence no reassessments are necessary?


To punish all for something a minority have done is a bit OTT! Why have a voucher system, that will make life that is already hard and uncertain, that bit more humiliating just to punish the few scroungers.

I read once that the amount the government pay in benefits in total (that's disability, JSA, housing, working, child) is a small percentage of their budget something like 28% of public spending but only 11% of the income And of them the amount that take advantage will be minuscule in the greater scheme of things.

There are better things to worry about.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Are you saying it is okay for the people who exploit it to continue to do so since "it is the minority" and hence no reassessments are necessary?
> 
> I care the amount of money that could have been better utilised. I cared because I am a tax payer and I am aware of where my money is going and I would like to have a choice as to where that money is going. I care because I know of people who exploit the system and yet they go on 4 holidays a year, live in newly built council houses, have no responsibilities and get up in the afternoon, play videogames all day and still believe they are entitled to their benefits when they should make more of an effort to find a job instead of running away from responsibilities. I care because there are children who are growing up learning that there is no need to study, progress, put efforts into something (or work) as they can get away with it. As a matter of fact, my friend is on benefits and her brother (14) is planning on dropping out of school (like her sister did) and does not want to work and has no interest in studying either. I care because it is a matter of principles.


*Haha, your posts mad me annoyed to start with. But now i find them amusing. You say you would like to know where your money you pay in taxes is going, lmao, wouldn't we all. Ideal world, not going to happen. I hate the thought that our NHS is in such a state but we still find money for war. Don't blame the people that have the least in life, blame the ones that have created the situation.*


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

My mum (who is in England) told me that income related benefits are based on your income and savings and the contribution based benefits are based on your national insurance contributions and tax credits are or did be dealt with the tax office. Some benefits are taxable so you are still liable to pay tax on them.

So since when does it deprieve a full time or part time worker of their tax payments as none of the benefits someone else claims in the United Kingdom from what I understand come off another persons tax who might be working? The tax payer is not paying to keep someone on benefits as they are based on the individuals circumstances who is claiming benefits depending on what benefit they are claiming. Plus from what my mum explained is when you are claiming certain benefits the benefits agency pays your national insurance contributions so you can continue getting benefits or if you get a job so there are no gaps in your national insurance record so you can get a state pension eventually.

I cannot see how the United Kingdom benefits system deprieves the tax payer of money as your benefits are based on your individual circumstances.

Is it just a misconception people have that those claiming United Kingdom state benefits deprieve the tax payer of money?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Well the tax payer pays for it. The woman with the council house full of kids who lives on benefits just around the corner is supported by the tax payer. NI is just another tax anyway and only tax payers pay it. So yes, the tax payer pays for people on welfare.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

saartje said:


> My mum (who is in England) told me that income related benefits are based on your income and savings and the contribution based benefits are based on your national insurance contributions and tax credits are or did be dealt with the tax office. Some benefits are taxable so you are still liable to pay tax on them.
> 
> So since when does it deprieve a full time or part time worker of their tax payments as none of the benefits someone else claims in the United Kingdom from what I understand come off another persons tax who might be working? The tax payer is not paying to keep someone on benefits as they are based on the individuals circumstances who is claiming benefits depending on what benefit they are claiming. Plus from what my mum explained is when you are claiming certain benefits the benefits agency pays your national insurance contributions so you can continue getting benefits or of you get a job so there are no gaps in youd national insurance record so you can get a state pension.
> 
> ...


You pay VAT on any income exceeding the personal tax allowance of £12,500 like everybody else (no special treatment for people not working as that would be positive discrimination). Where do you think the government gets the money to pay for benefits? It is from taxes indeed.

Some people seem very sensitive/defensive on the topic (I suspect there may be some claimants among the respondents?). Again, my disagreement is for a group of people who are work shy, fit for work and choose to be on benefits. Anyone could be in the situation where they need help by the government as circumstances change unpredictably (they lose their job, they get made redundant etc). Receiving help is fine as long as the people do not take advantage of it. The help is there ONLY for people who genuinely need it and not for people with poor work ethics. My words have been twisted many times and I had to repeat myself like a broken record.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You pay *VAT *on any income exceeding the personal tax allowance of £12,500 like everybody else (no special treatment for people not working as that would be positive discrimination). Where do you think the government gets the money to pay for benefits? It is from taxes indeed.


No, you pay *income tax*. And national insurance over a certain amount in bands too.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think part of the problem could be that you seem to want people to jump through even more hoops than they do already and only get food vouchers and that kind of thing, to prevent fraud by a criminal minority and don’t want the perpetually depressed who have no self esteem to claim at all. I don’t agree with you. I’d rather pay more tax than make it harder for people who are already struggling, when really if they made it easier, it would cost less and they could focus their efforts on the real problems. Instead of which they pay private companies a small fortune to humiliate and destroy people with their extreme assessments, in part because the media make us think it’s a larger problem than it is.

No I don’t claim anything, nor do any of my offspring. We have a small company and my grown up kids are all healthy and working. I’m lucky.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Elles said:


> People who are making fraudulent claims aren't caught by making it harder for genuine claimants, or through tough assessments. They're caught by their posting photos on Facebook,


Totally: most of benefit fraud is detected via social media as people cannot resist telling their 987 ''friends'' how they had a £20,000 wedding followed by a cruise in the Bahamas. They have ''digital communications investigators'' who no longer hide in phone booths or sit in cars for hours waiting for the suspects to do something, they just go online and it's all there for the whole world to see. A couple of screen shots and it's all over!


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

MilleD said:


> No, you pay *income tax*. And national insurance over a certain amount in bands too.


Yes, that is income tax. NI is separate and paid on amounts exceeding the personal allowance which varies (you don't pay NI you you earn below £719 a month). There are different bands for income tax and NI.

Regardless if you do pay income tax or national insurance that is money that you were given by the government and did not work for it. Do you think benefits claimants should not be paying any income tax and NI?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Some people seem very sensitive/defensive on the topic (I suspect there may be some claimants among the respondents?).


That's a massive assumption.

Of course it's a sensitive topic.. Surely you never expected everyone to call people 'insert deragatory term' who claim benefits and agree with you? You are talking about how people have to live in this day and age. Maybe you should help at a food bank, open your eyes to real poverty those that people who are on in a vicious circle of benefits due to lack of jobs, lack of experience, over qualified for what is available. 
Have you read replies here? Do you think people want to use food banks, take donations from charities for white goods, furniture because they have no choice? Struggle with mental health because they simply have no routine that work brings, or feel like they have any self esteem.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

@Spinonistaitaliano94 Seeing as I don't know very much about the United Kingdoms benefits system only what I am told from my mum who is a pensioner by the way and my dad has just become a pensioner as well this week and their experience helping someone who simply cannot work and has been told so not just by the medical professionals but the DWP assessors as well, I am going to leave this thread.

I am trying to be neuteral but I find you come across as a person who would put people down if they are in need of state help. Lets not forget many workers rely on the state benefits system in the United Kingdom as well. I just hope one day you are not in need of state help through benefits by falling to unwell to work or becoming unemployed.

I by the way did not claim any state benefits in England when I lived there up until 1999 and do not claim any state benefits in the Netherlands but I certainly do not look down my nose at the people that do and belittle them.

We all will one day rely on the state to pay our state pensions just remember that.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You pay VAT on any income exceeding the personal tax allowance of £12,500 like everybody else (no special treatment for people not working as that would be positive discrimination). Where do you think the government gets the money to pay for benefits? It is from taxes indeed.


Income Tax is not VAT. Mum worked for the Inland Revenue most of her working life, so trust me on this 



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Some people seem very sensitive/defensive on the topic (I suspect there may be some claimants among the respondents?). Again, my disagreement is for a group of people who are work shy, fit for work and choose to be on benefits. Anyone could be in the situation where they need help by the government as circumstances change unpredictably (they lose their job, they get made redundant etc). Receiving help is fine as long as the people do not take advantage of it. The help is there ONLY for people who genuinely need it and not for people with poor work ethics. My words have been twisted many times and I had to repeat myself like a broken record.


Look, it's not rocket science. If there is a system, someone, somewhere will be taking personal advantage of it. MOST PEOPLE will use the system as it is supposed to be used. A very small minority will find a way to exploit it.

In your case, this seems to stem from knowing one person who does so, and rather than a) encourage them to reform, or b) dob them in to the authorities, you would prefer to make it even harder and more demeaning for people who genuinely need help to get it.

Incidentally, the small amount of money lost to beenfit fraud is dwarfed by the amount of tax 'avoided' (AKA legalld dodged) by big corporations and the rich - why not get worked up about that instead?


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

After I was on JSA for about a year I had enough. I went self employed because that seemed like my only option. I'm glad I did. It's hard work. Some months aren't great earnings wise but it's better that JSA.

People may seem defensive because a lot know people or have had experience of it. It's not as easy as you seem to think! @Spinonistaitaliano94 . 
My Aunt was a manager at a charity shop for years. She got made redundant and had to go on JSA. It was hard for her. She lived alone in her house and had to pay bills and pay for her dogs food and vet bills from what she got ( She already had the dog and wasn't prepared to give her away). I'm sure she skipped meals because she couldn't afford it.

After a while she was accepted at a part time job at a supermarket. It barely paid more than JSA but with overtime she made it work.
JSA and benefits is what stops people from losing their house or independance. I would not begrudge anyone seeking out help.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

saartje said:


> @Spinonistaitaliano94 Seeing as I don't know very much about the United Kingdoms benefits system only what I am told from my mum who is a pensioner by the way and my dad has just become a pensioner as well this week and their experience helping someone who simply cannot work and has been told so not just by the medical professionals but the DWP assessors as well, I am going to leave this thread.
> 
> I am trying to be neuteral but I find you come across as a person who would put people down if they are in need of state help. Lets not forget many workers rely on the state benefits system in the United Kingdom as well. I just hope one day you are not in need of state help through benefits by falling to unwell to work or becoming unemployed.
> 
> ...


As always you have kept a level head, given a well thought out response as you always do in General Chat. 
I can understand why you feel the need to leave the thread


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Yes, that is income tax. NI is separate and paid on amounts exceeding the personal allowance which varies (you don't pay NI you you earn below £719 a month). There are different bands for income tax and NI.


Yeah, so not VAT then.

Thanks for the 'lesson' though 



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Regardless if you do pay income tax or national insurance that is money that you were given by the government and did not work for it. Do you think benefits claimants should not be paying any income tax and NI?


Some benefits are already tax free. Do you even know anything about this subject apart from the fact that your friend is claiming more than you think she is entitled to?

https://www.gov.uk/income-tax/taxfree-and-taxable-state-benefits


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

Jesthar said:


> Income Tax is not VAT. Mum worked for the Inland Revenue most of her working life, so trust me on this


I know, my bad. You pay VAT on goods/services you buy and charge it if you are VAT registered business supplying vattable goods/services.



Jesthar said:


> In your case, this seems to stem from knowing one person who does so, and rather than a) encourage them to reform, or b) dob them in to the authorities, you would prefer to make it even harder and more demeaning for people who genuinely need help to get it.
> 
> Incidentally, the small amount of money lost to beenfit fraud is dwarfed by the amount of tax 'avoided' (AKA legalld dodged) by big corporations and the rich - why not get worked up about that instead?


I know a few people (not just one) who do not want to work by choice and hence that is heavily influencing my opinion on the matter, yes. I do and have encouraged my friend (I don't know the rest too well) to find and stick to a job but she ends up getting fired after a month or so. The 'fraud' I am aware they are committing (it might be more than this) is not declaring that they are going on holiday (s) as I know you need to inform the job centre of any holidays. As far as I am aware holidays outside the country are not allowed while claiming JSA as you need to be in the country if you are called for an interview the next day. I am not sure where my friend gets the money but this is her 4th holiday (one int he country) this year and the other people I know went to Florida while on JSA (how they are able it I have no clue).

So this context hopefully provides you a background to understand where I am coming from.

As for legally avoiding taxes by having a more tax efficient structure, I don't see that problem. In terms of illegally dodging taxes for large corporations(I work for one) is not as easy as come might think as the VAT returns are audited by HMRC and if any fraudulent declaration is made the company will face hefty fines.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Yes, that is income tax. NI is separate and paid on amounts exceeding the personal allowance which varies (*you don't pay NI you you earn below £719 a month*). There are different bands for income tax and NI.


I can assure you, that my son (Matt's twin) *does *pay NI on a wage of £470 per month
It may only be a tiny amount, but he still pays it, and its taken direct from his wages
One of my other sons, who has an ASC, pays NI on a wage of £440 a month
So quite what fantasy land you live in, where you grab these amounts from thin air, I don't know


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

MilleD said:


> Yeah, so not VAT then.
> 
> Thanks for the 'lesson' though


I have already addressed that that was a typo/ incorrect word, so no need to go on about it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Good wind up thread


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> I can assure you, that my son (Matt's twin) does pay NI on a wage of £470 per month
> It may only be a tiny amount, but he still pays it, and its taken direct from his wages
> One of my other sons, who has an ASC pays NI on a wage of £440 a month
> So quite what fantasy land you live in, where you grab these amounts from thin air, I don't know


The link shows you the NI bands.
https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-rates-letters


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> The 'fraud' I am aware they are committing (it might be more than this) is not declaring that they are going on holiday (s) as I know you need to inform the job centre of any holidays. As far as I am aware holidays outside the country are not allowed while claiming JSA as you need to be in the country if you are called for an interview the next day. I am not sure where my friend gets the money but this is her 4th holiday (one int he country) this year and the other people I know went to Florida while on JSA (how they are able it I have no clue).
> 
> So this context hopefully provides you a background to understand where I am coming from.
> 
> As for legally avoiding taxes by having a more tax efficient structure, I don't see that problem. In terms of illegally dodging taxes for large corporations(I work for one) is not as easy as come might think as the VAT returns are audited by HMRC and if any fraudulent declaration is made the company will face hefty fines.


So your happy to be a dirty tax dodger, but not for people at the end of their tether, or life. To be supported by the government
Perhaps, as has been pointed out, if yours an other companies DIDNT dodge their correct tax payments, there'd be no need for child poverty or food banks

As for the holidays, well you don't know where they get the money/time so it must be fraud
You know nothing about arrangements they may or not have made with DWP, the reasons for the supposed holidays, nor whether a relative., friend or charity has paid
Also please educate yourself
Stop banging on about JSA, for 70%of claimants, it doesn't exist anymore, its been replaced by UC, and will be 100% within the next 2 years, which is even harder to fiddle, as you seem to think everyone does, and, drives more people into poverty, homelessness, poor mh and suicide


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

.. 

.
Point already made by someone


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> Good wind up thread


My sentiment exactly, Rona,



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Some people seem very sensitive/defensive on the topic (I suspect there may be some claimants among the respondents?)..


You got a result, then.

Im claiming my pension in a couple of years , that's a benefit.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

mrs phas said:


> I can assure you, that my son (Matt's twin) *does *pay NI on a wage of £470 per month
> It may only be a tiny amount, but he still pays it, and its taken direct from his wages
> One of my other sons, who has an ASC, pays NI on a wage of £440 a month
> So quite what fantasy land you live in, where you grab these amounts from thin air, I don't know


If they are normally employed, they shouldn't be paying NI on those amounts. There are always exceptions to the rules though.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> As for legally avoiding taxes by having a more tax efficient structure, I don't see that problem. In terms of illegally dodging taxes for large corporations(I work for one) is not as easy as come might think as the VAT returns are audited by HMRC and if any fraudulent declaration is made the company will face hefty fines.


You are joking right?

So it's ok for a huge company to siphon massive amounts of money to a lower tax country to avoid paying where it's trading?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> That doesn't happen now.
> 
> Even kids who want packed lunch like their friends get them provided and placed with all the others in a normal lunchbox while the kids are in class so nobody would know.


That's good news.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> My sentiment exactly, Rona,
> 
> You got a result, then.
> 
> Im claiming my pension in a couple of years , that's a benefit.


But a surprising amount of people do actually think like this.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> So your happy to be a dirty tax dodger, but not for people at the end of their tether, or life. To be supported by the government
> Perhaps, as has been pointed out, if yours an other companies DIDNT dodge their correct tax payments, there'd be no need for child poverty or food banks


Dodging tax payments is not allowed which is why HMRC audits VAT returns. Organisations pay HMRC the VAT they charge on their services and reclaim (if they can) the VAT they are charged on goods/services. There is no fraud in it.



mrs phas said:


> You know nothing about arrangements they may or not have made with DWP, the reasons for the supposed holidays, nor whether a relative., friend or charity has paid
> Also please educate yourself


I know that she never told the job centre about the holiday and neither did the rest who went to Florida. I know because they told me. The reason for the holiday is leisure, no sick relatives involved and no other particular reason.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

What needs to change is the support network in place and how we treat the most vulnerable. Teaching in Zambia meant living on a monthly wage of £35 (a box of cereals was £5) without access to what most people would consider to be essentials - although the shared swimming pool was a luxury. I always had a home but I had to make decisions such as whether I could afford hot water that month and rice was my staple diet. What made life easier was the sense of community and belonging. In the news recently there was an article that said 2 out of 5 hospital patients don’t have visitors. When I had malaria a family opened their home to me and I stayed with them for a week. To know that you’re not alone is worth more than material goods.

Rather than criticising your friend about her apparent life style choices consider what you could do to support her. Maybe she sleeps until 3pm as she feels there is no point to getting up so invite her round for a meal or go round to talk with her. Be a friend and if you can’t then walk away.

In case you’re wondering I pay the higher level of tax. That doesn’t mean I get to moan more about where that money goes. I would actually pay more if it meant decent services for all.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

MilleD said:


> You are joking right?
> 
> So it's ok for a huge company to siphon massive amounts of money to a lower tax country to avoid paying where it's trading?


The tax that needs to be paid to HMRC is the same and it cannot and is not kept as profit for the company. The difference is the amount you reclaim from HMRC (if you can). If you are charged more tax than you charge your customers you can reclaim the difference from HMRC. If the opposite applies you owe HMRC money. So there is no fraud or tax dodging.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

Jobeth said:


> Rather than criticising your friend about her apparent life style choices consider what you could do to support her. Maybe she sleeps until 3pm as she feels there is no point to getting up so invite her round for a meal or go round to talk with her. Be a friend and if you can't then walk away.


She gets up at 3pm because she plays videogames at night and hence her sleeping pattern is messed up. To put it into perspective she is 28. I am a friend to her and make her many favours which I won't list here. I see her every weekend and I have always encouraged her to do well (go to college, find a job she likes, helping her to lose weight).

The fact that I 'criticise' her lifestyle choices is two-folds: 1) I don't like seeing her wasting her life away doing nothing (yet she seems like she is okay with it but I am not 100% sure of it). 2) I disagree with people's poor work ethics and and opportunistic behaviour


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I disagree with people's poor work ethics and and opportunistic behaviour


You wouldn't like me then............work to live not live to work 

Work isn't that important in the scheme of things


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MilleD said:


> If they are normally employed, they shouldn't be paying NI on those amounts. There are always exceptions to the rules though.


One is a salaried bouncer
One works for a frozen food store
I deal with ASC son financials, so see what is taken off, 0% tax and x amount NI
Other son is in discussions with DWP as his NI is taken at source
Whatever the website says, they both pay NI, without full NI, they'd get no pension, and NHS ( for what both are worth)


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> She gets up at 3pm because she plays videogames at night and hence her sleeping pattern is messed up. To put it into perspective she is 28. I am a friend to her and make her many favours which I won't list here. I see her every weekend and I have always encouraged her to do well (go to college, find a job she likes, helping her to lose weight).
> 
> The fact that I 'criticise' her lifestyle choices is two-folds: 1) I don't like seeing her wasting her life away doing nothing (yet she seems like she is okay with it but I am not 100% sure of it). 2) I disagree with people's poor work ethics and and opportunistic behaviour


That sounds more like the role of a support worker than a friend. I enjoy being with my friends and don't feel the need to judge them.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Maybe she’s addicted to the games. I’m sure you mean the best, but it doesn’t sound as though you’re helping tbh.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

Elles said:


> Maybe she's addicted to the games. I'm sure you mean the best, but it doesn't sound as though you're helping tbh.


Tbh I think she doesn't have anything else to do so watching netflix and gaming are the only interesting options. Either that or she'd sitting and staring at a wall. She seems okay with this but I suspect that she really isn't. It is a conflict between my principles and seeing her wasting her life away. I can only help so much but if she doesn't want the help there's little I can do. Walking away is easier said than done as she is a good friend of mine.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Tbh I think she doesn't have anything else to do so watching netflix and gaming are the only interesting options. Either that or she'd sitting and staring at a wall. She seems okay with this but I suspect that she really isn't. It is a conflict between my principles and seeing her wasting her life away. I can only help so much but if she doesn't want the help there's little I can do. Walking away is easier said than done as she is a good friend of mine.


The question is are you a good friend of hers and unfortunately reading your thread, it seems you're making mistakes and judging her and I expect she knows it. You don't need to walk away, but you do need maybe to step back.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2019)

rona said:


> You wouldn't like me then............work to live not live to work
> 
> Work isn't that important in the scheme of things


You can 'work to live' by doing a job you enjoy and by having good work ethics. The two go hand in hand.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You can 'work to live' by doing a job you enjoy and by having good work ethics. The two go hand in hand.


m

If only it was that easy. What's your job? Maybe you already said.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You can 'work to live' by doing a job you enjoy and by having good work ethics. The two go hand in hand.


Hang on a minute.. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance in your posts... You honestly think the unemployed are apply for a job that they love, and everyone whose working is waking up to go to a job that that they love with the job role they love, as they have been able to pick and choose the perfect job they always wanted?

Honestly you haven't a clue have you.. However you've got everyone replying and probably giggling at the stupidity of your naivety too


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Hmmm. Have spent some time reading this thread and have noted that the majority are solidly against any form of voucher system because the recipients shouldn't be told how to spend the money (I happen to agree). Any discussion on giving money to the homeless attracts a lot of posts suggesting you shouldn't give cash (I do) because they might spend it on things you don't approve of. Do we have double standards - plenty of benefit money gets spent on drink and drugs. Are we descending into the Victorian idea of deserving and undeserving poor?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> As for legally avoiding taxes by having a more tax efficient structure, I don't see that problem. In terms of illegally dodging taxes for large corporations(I work for one) is not as easy as come might think as the VAT returns are audited by HMRC and if any fraudulent declaration is made the company will face hefty fines.


Just to clarify, I do mean tax AVOIDANCE. Not fraud. But quite frankly, if you're fine with rich people and with companies who rake in multi multi millions in profit being able to pay expensive accountants to find and exploit obscure tax loopholes so they pay only fraction of what they would otherwise, but also want those in genuine need to jump through an increasing number of ever more demeaning hoops because a few people who exploit the benefits system, then you have a very odd sense of priorit.



Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You can 'work to live' by doing a job you enjoy and by having good work ethics. The two go hand in hand.


Work ethic, yes, but having a job you truly enjoy isn't always possible. I'm lucky enough there, but many aren't.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

havoc said:


> Any discussion on giving money to the homeless attracts a lot of posts suggesting you shouldn't give cash (I do) because they might spend it on things you don't approve of. Do we have double standards - plenty of benefit money gets spent on drink and drugs. Are we descending into the Victorian idea of deserving and undeserving poor?


It's a challenging thought. However, the reason I won't give money on the streets is because there are a LOT of professional begging gangs around in this region. I do offer to buy food or a cup of coffee when it feels right, though.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Jesthar said:


> It's a challenging thought. However, the reason I won't give money on the streets is because there are a LOT of professional begging gangs around in this region. I do offer to buy food or a cup of coffee when it feels right, though.


Completely understand. It is 'challenging' though to my mind buying food instead of giving money direct is no different than a voucher system. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to criticise any individual's actions and I too am careful where I give. I used to stop for a chat quite regularly with one young lad and it came out that he was trying to save for a tent - so we went together and bought him one. I wouldn't have given him enough cash to just go and buy one - never could work out if that makes me nasty or nice. It certainly makes me hypocritical


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You can 'work to live' by doing a job you enjoy and by having good work ethics. The two go hand in hand.


Mmm, when I left school I had a job I didn't like and my work ethic was dreadful, I only used to work 3 days a week out of the 5 I was supposed to, there were loads of jobs back then and I was good when I was there, so they kept me on.
That was followed by 17 years on a farm, the only time I ever had off in that whole time was after I collapsed with excruciating stomach pain, but it was only one day. I loved the work and animals need commitment.
This was followed by 20+ years in a plant nursery, for most of those years I hardly had a day off but then the boss started knocking around with new female staff, they all thought they were special but of course I'd seen it all before . At that point I lost my work ethic, I couldn't motivate myself for a disgusting predatory male 
I now do a little dog walking and although I'm devoted to each and every one, sometimes other things take priority.
After 45 years working, and watching other women of my age looking exhausted while trying to hold down a full time job, I really don't think work is that important and money isn't the driving force which has motivated me throughout my life.

What do you class as a good work ethic?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> The tax that needs to be paid to HMRC is the same and it cannot and is not kept as profit for the company. The difference is the amount you reclaim from HMRC (if you can). If you are charged more tax than you charge your customers you can reclaim the difference from HMRC. If the opposite applies you owe HMRC money. So there is no fraud or tax dodging.


You seem utterly obsessed with VAT. You know that's not the only tax a company is supposed to pay right?

But again. Thanks for the 'lesson'.....


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I guess the best chance your money has of doing what you intend and not funding a millionaire beggar’s lifestyle, is to donate to local charities who work with the homeless and to food banks.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> The tax that needs to be paid to HMRC is the same and it cannot and is not kept as profit for the company. The difference is the amount you reclaim from HMRC (if you can). If you are charged more tax than you charge your customers you can reclaim the difference from HMRC. If the opposite applies you owe HMRC money. So there is no fraud or tax dodging.


Last time I paid vat it was to Customs and Excise, not HMRC, who collect income, companies tax etc.

If you are registered for VAT then you must charge it to your customers then pass it on to HM Customs and Excise. If you pay VAT yourself for any services or products for use in the same business you can reclaim this.

Hope this makes it clearer for you.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Linda Weasel said:


> Last time I paid vat it was to Customs and Excise, not HMRC, who collect income, companies tax etc.
> 
> If you are registered for VAT then you must charge it to your customers then pass it on to HM Customs and Excise. If you pay VAT yourself for any services or products for use in the same business you can reclaim this.
> 
> Hope this makes it clearer for you.


It's HMRC now.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> I guess the best chance your money has of doing what you intend and not funding a millionaire beggar's lifestyle, is to donate to local charities who work with the homeless and to food banks


Isn't paying tax a version of that? There are people have made large amounts of money (even millions) through benefit fraud so my taxes are as much at risk of misuse as through direct giving. As it happens I do donate to two homeless centres, one quite local to where I live and one close to my heart in Manchester because homelessness is my 'thing'. A short walk around Manchester should convince anyone that the vast majority of the homeless are far from millionaire beggars.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Elles said:


> It's HMRC now.


Stand corrected, it's been a while. 
PS. The VAT man was really scary.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> Isn't paying tax a version of that? There are people have made large amounts of money (even millions) through benefit fraud so my taxes are as much at risk of misuse as through direct giving. As it happens I do donate to two homeless centres, one quite local to where I live and one close to my heart in Manchester because homelessness is my 'thing'. A short walk around Manchester should convince anyone that the vast majority of the homeless are far from millionaire beggars.


Sorry you've confused me? How is donating a few quid to a local homeless charity, or dropping off a bag of food at a food bank, funding benefit fraud? Or comparable to paying taxes?

I was just suggesting that if you're worried that someone begging on the street is a fraud, you could give the money to a legitimate local concern instead. They might be frauds too, but it's worth thinking about, rather than not doing anything when you want to.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

havoc said:


> Hmmm. Have spent some time reading this thread and have noted that the majority are solidly against any form of voucher system because the recipients shouldn't be told how to spend the money (I happen to agree). Any discussion on giving money to the homeless attracts a lot of posts suggesting you shouldn't give cash (I do) because they might spend it on things you don't approve of. Do we have double standards - plenty of benefit money gets spent on drink and drugs. Are we descending into the Victorian idea of deserving and undeserving poor?


no double standard here
i give direct to the person who needs it, in their hand at the time i am able to give it
not to some charity that puts it in its coffers, and, only doles out money when press and cameras are around
if they use it for ****, drugs, drink, so what? whatever gets them through, I say
life is hard enough when youve got a roof over your head and on benefits
living on the street, not having shelter, living hand to mouth and having no permenant address, or, access to a computer to log onto benefits or even apply for them, or to be able to recieve letters
no, not for me to tell them they cant be a little more comfortable, in their misery

Although im sure Spinonistaitaliano94 will say im enabling not helping, i could care less, ill waste my, not needed ESAthat i scam the governement and tax payers for, where and when i want to


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> Sorry you've confused me? How is donating a few quid to a local homeless charity, or dropping off a bag of food at a food bank, funding benefit fraud? Or comparable to paying taxes


It's the paying taxes that funds benefit fraud - no taxes collected = no benefits paid out = no benefit fraud. Generally as a society we're prepared to take the risk because most recipients of benefits are not wastrels or defrauding the system. We are happy to hand people in need of help some cash in the form of benefits and earlier posts in this thread suggested we're heavily against anything but cash being given. Definitely no voucher system, people should be allowed to spend their benefit money as they choose.

Somehow, when it comes to those right at the bottom of the heap, most in need, people don't want to trust them with cash. The whole 'don't give money to a homeless person because they'll spend it as they choose' or they might be part of some millionaire gang or whatever. It's ok to buy them a coffee but not give them money. I'm just interested why the difference in attitude.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> i give direct to the person who needs it, in their hand at the time i am able to give it


And I love you for it


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> It's the paying taxes that funds benefit fraud - no taxes collected = no benefits paid out = no benefit fraud. Generally as a society we're prepared to take the risk because most recipients of benefits are not wastrels or defrauding the system. We are happy to hand people in need of help some cash in the form of benefits and earlier posts in this thread suggested we're heavily against anything but cash being given. Definitely no voucher system, people should be allowed to spend their benefit money as they choose.
> 
> Somehow, when it comes to those right at the bottom of the heap, most in need, people don't want to trust them with cash. The whole 'don't give money to a homeless person because they'll spend it as they choose' or they might be part of some millionaire gang or whatever. It's ok to buy them a coffee but not give them money. I'm just interested why the difference in attitude.


Oh ok, no idea. Maybe a millionaire begging gang was arrested in their area and now they're more wary. I was trying to make a positive suggestion.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> Oh ok, no idea. Maybe a millionaire begging gang was arrested in their area and now they're more wary. I was trying to make a positive suggestion


I do realise that and I did make a point in an earlier post that I'm not looking to criticise any individual for their choices. It's an interest on a much more general level.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

havoc said:


> Completely understand. It is 'challenging' though to my mind buying food instead of giving money direct is no different than a voucher system. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to criticise any individual's actions and I too am careful where I give. I used to stop for a chat quite regularly with one young lad and it came out that he was trying to save for a tent - so we went together and bought him one. I wouldn't have given him enough cash to just go and buy one - never could work out if that makes me nasty or nice. It certainly makes me hypocritical


Of course you can never tell what they'll like either. A homeless guy came to a social services area office where I was seconded once. A lady came round our offices to see if we had anything we could give him. All we had was a pack of chocolate Hobnobs (as everyone knows, the world's greatest biscuit), we duly handed them over.

15 minutes she was back with said Hobnobs. Apparently he didn't like that kind of biscuit. So it does seem that beggars can indeed be choosers. He did take a banana though, so we had to applaud him for his healthy food choices. I don't know if he ever went back there.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MilleD said:


> All we had was a pack of chocolate Hobnobs (as everyone knows, the world's greatest biscuit)


That is a whole other discussion 

I'm with the homeless guy totally


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

rona said:


> That is a whole other discussion
> 
> I'm with the homeless guy totally


Noooooooo


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

havoc said:


> Somehow, when it comes to those right at the bottom of the heap, most in need, people don't want to trust them with cash. The whole 'don't give money to a homeless person because they'll spend it as they choose' or they might be part of some millionaire gang or whatever. It's ok to buy them a coffee but not give them money. I'm just interested why the difference in attitude.


Media perception for the most part IMHO
We are conditioned to believe that homeless people are homeless through choice.
We are conditioned to believe that the majority of the homeless are alcoholic and/or drug addicts.
And then we are conditioned to believe that people ripping off the public are also in the majority when it comes to homeless people.

I've been told many times in Cambridge to not give certain people money because of X,Y and Z
I find it an interesting behaviour that some will give to those less fortunate but then get arsed when that person doesn't spend the money in the way that the giver deems suitable.

If I have change then I give change, if I'm going in for coffee then I will pay it forward and then tell who ever I come across first to get themselves a hot drink on me and sometimes I just sit there and have a chat...when you give a gift it should not come with stipulations IMHO

-gets off soapbox-


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Media perception for the most part IMHO
> We are conditioned to believe that homeless people are homeless through choice.
> We are conditioned to believe that the majority of the homeless are alcoholic and/or drug addicts.
> And then we are conditioned to believe that people ripping off the public are also in the majority when it comes to homeless people.


Hmm, this isn't just media perception though (I know you said for the most part).

The town I work in has recently had an influx of people sleeping in doorways. They are drinking when I walk to work in the morning. They've been offered accommodation and turned it down.

All in all, there are about 15-20 people spread around. They all know each other obviously. So yes, they are there through choice, and are mostly addicts of some sort. That's not me being judgey, it's just fact.

So again, a minority, but it's not the media who have bought it to people's attention. They can see it first hand. Some of them are pretty abusive to folk.

I've spoken to a couple of them, and they are perfectly happy to be where they are. As it gets colder I hope they take up the offer of a place though.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MilleD said:


> The town I work in has recently had an influx of people sleeping in doorways. They are drinking when I walk to work in the morning. They've been offered accommodation and turned it down.


Here's where it does get complicated. There's a lot more to being homeless than not having a roof over your head. There is a community of support which is lost once someone is housed and without serious ongoing support people do end up needing to seek that support in the only place they know how. It took me a long time to to grasp that and it is very difficult for those more fortunate to accept.

One of the things I noticed when first getting involved with a homeless centre was that everyone was drinking from identical plain white mugs. It was a rule that they did so even if they had a can of coke. It could also have been alcohol, that's the point of the plain white mugs, so nobody sees or judges. Those people who are drinking at any time of night are day are in need of help and banning alcohol would turn away those in most need. To really help someone you first have to accept them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MilleD said:


> They've been offered accommodation and turned it down.


There are several who did this in a local town. You do wonder why they want to stay under the radar.

I must admit to having seen very few homeless on the streets but from the ones I've seen in my own town, there's only one that seems to be "genuine". I know that's not the right term but I don't know how else to put it.
There is another who lives in his car and parks in the local forest every night, he seems quite sad. I don't know any back histories of course so I may be way off here, but they are the only two I would feel right about supporting from a surface perspective. 
Some of the Big issue sellers around here seem very aggressive and two have had to be moved on because of their intimidation of shoppers


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rona said:


> There is another who lives in his car and parks in the local forest every night, he seems quite sad. I don't know any back histories of course so I may be way off here, but they are the only two I would feel right about supporting from a surface perspective.


It isn't about being 'way off' or not. Individual choices are just that and not right or wrong. For many years I always gave money to a particular Big Issue seller - didn't take a copy. When my mother was alive and in a wheelchair he'd always had a word for her when we passed him, spoke directly to her and was so kind. It meant so much to me when a shopping trip comprised of taking her into shops where staff would do things like hand me her change or answer her questions by speaking to me. That guy was actually doing OK and very switched on, didn't need my money but I wouldn't have passed him by without giving him something long after my mum had died.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

lullabydream said:


> Hang on a minute.. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance in your posts... You honestly think the unemployed are apply for a job that they love, and everyone whose working is waking up to go to a job that that they love with the job role they love, as they have been able to pick and choose the perfect job they always wanted?
> 
> Honestly you haven't a clue have you.. However you've got everyone replying and probably giggling at the stupidity of your naivety too


I stated that 'you CAN do a job that you like' and as an adult who has responsibilities you should have good work ethics regardless. If you happen to do a job you don't like it is a shame but nothing stops people to look for another job while they work. Also, I simply said that doing a job you like and having good work ethics are not mutually exclusive and as such they could go hand in hand. You seem to like to read through the lines, interpret things your own way, put words in people's mouths and attack them for it.

For this reason, this is the last time I reply to any of your responses as you seem to like to antagonise people and playing mind games. I will no longer entertain your nonsense.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

rona said:


> What do you class as a good work ethic?


Being responsible and trustworthy which starts from turning up in time, doing the tasks you are given up to good standards, being self motivated. 
Turning up drunk at work, taking too many days off 'sick', not doing what you are asked to do is not good work ethic to me, just to give an example.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Of course you can never tell what they'll like either. A homeless guy came to a social services area office where I was seconded once. A lady came round our offices to see if we had anything we could give him. All we had was a pack of chocolate Hobnobs (as everyone knows, the world's greatest biscuit), we duly handed them over.
> 
> 15 minutes she was back with said Hobnobs. Apparently he didn't like that kind of biscuit. So it does seem that beggars can indeed be choosers. He did take a banana though, so we had to applaud him for his healthy food choices. I don't know if he ever went back there.


See, I'd have been the other way around - I do like HobNobs (although they aren't my favourite ), but even the smell of a banana makes me want to throw up! Can't stand the things...


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

MilleD said:


> You seem utterly obsessed with VAT. You know that's not the only tax a company is supposed to pay right?


Corporation tax too, I know (and what's with the condescending attitude?). 
And btw, People are going on about it so I am just replying back. If you don't mention it I'll not bring it up, simple.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> For this reason, this is the last time I reply to any of your responses as you seem to like to antagonise people and playing mind games. I will no longer entertain your nonsense.


This is hilarious.

@lullabydream here since 2013 versus new bod, here for a few days and having a huge debate about something not remotely pet related.

Sorry, who is being antagonistic?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

Jesthar said:


> Just to clarify, I do mean tax AVOIDANCE. Not fraud. But quite frankly, if you're fine with rich people and with companies who rake in multi multi millions in profit being able to pay expensive accountants to find and exploit obscure tax loopholes so they pay only fraction of what they would otherwise, but also want those in genuine need to jump through an increasing number of ever more demeaning hoops because a few people who exploit the benefits system, then you have a very odd sense of priorit


I am fine with what is perfectly legal. The accountants are not to blame, they are just doing their job which required many years of hard study and sacrifice (more likely study and work). Meanwhile there is a group of people sitting in their house, perfectly fit with no intention to work, bringing up children on poor principles.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Corporation tax too, I know (and what's with the condescending attitude?).


So explaining to intelligent people what VAT is you don't consider patronising ?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

MilleD said:


> @lullabydream here since 2013 versus new bod, here for a few days and having a huge debate about something not remotely pet related.
> 
> Sorry, who is being antagonistic?


That doesn't give anyone an excuse to twist people's words, making assumptions and adding their own narrative to it. That is antagonising and sh*T stirring.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

MilleD said:


> So explaining to intelligent people what VAT is you don't consider patronising ?


If people go on about it and question me on it I'll bring it up so that is not patronising, no. Yet again, you keep bringing it up...


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am fine with what is perfectly legal. The accountants are not to blame, they are just doing their job which required many years of hard study and sacrifice (more likely study and work). Meanwhile there is a group of people sitting in their house, perfectly fit with no intention to work, bringing up children on poor principles.


I thought you weren't going to take any further part in this thread?

I think it's probably the gift of maturity which allows one to make their point and then accept that other people are entitled to a different perspective.

This will be my last word on the subject.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am fine with what is perfectly legal. The accountants are not to blame, they are just doing their job which required many years of hard study and sacrifice (more likely study and work).


Aw shucks, it wasn't _that_ hard...


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

Jesthar said:


> It's a challenging thought. However, the reason I won't give money on the streets is because there are a LOT of professional begging gangs around in this region. I do offer to buy food or a cup of coffee when it feels right, though


Is that you not deciding how the money that you would give the homeless guy should be spent though? Is that not contradictory to you disagreeing with the voucher system?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Being responsible and trustworthy which starts from turning up in time, doing the tasks you are given up to good standards, being self motivated.
> Turning up drunk at work, taking too many days off 'sick', not doing what you are asked to do is not good work ethic to me, just to give an example.


So what would you class me through my working life?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am fine with what is perfectly legal. The accountants are not to blame, they are just doing their job which required many years of hard study and sacrifice (more likely study and work). Meanwhile there is a group of people sitting in their house, perfectly fit with no intention to work, bringing up children on poor principles.


Oh IDK... I'd rather my children grow up to be lazy but kind, than industrious only to learn how to make the rich and privileged richer and more privileged...

I don't know that I would call studying to be an accountant 'years of hard study and sacrifice' either LOL, you do seem to have some strange thought processes!


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

Linda Weasel said:


> I thought you weren't going to take any further part in this thread?
> 
> I think it's probably the gift of maturity which allows one to make their point and then accept that other people are entitled to a different perspective.
> 
> This will be my last word on the subject.


Never said that. I said I will not reply back to a particular person who keeps twisting my words to make me sound bad (not just in this thread but in others too).

I am opinionated and I do fight my corner (if I feel attacked) . I don't think that is synonyms of immaturity but rather stubborn personality.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am fine with what is perfectly legal. The accountants are not to blame, they are just doing their job which required many years of hard study and sacrifice (more likely study and work). Meanwhile there is a group of people sitting in their house, perfectly fit with no intention to work, bringing up children on poor principles.


Now who is twisting words?  I never mentioned anything about blaming the accountants, did I? In fact, I'm very, very appreciative of them, as I myself pay one annually to sort out the tax return for my little hobby business, as it's well worth it to save the hassle and headache of doing it myself. As the old saying goes, "To err is human, but this you must learn - DON'T be human on your tax return!"

No, it's not the accountants I question - as you say, they are doing a job, and doing it well (preseumably with excellent work ethic). Rather, it's the _ethics _of the very rich and/or very profitable who seek to become even richer by slyly wriggling out of a very large proportion of their taxes I was highlighting, and that I'm not fine with. Yes, they are legally able to to do it, and so could anyone - except they can't because only the very wealthy can afford the means to do it. Not to mention the means to influence the politicians to keep things that way. So, is their tax avoidance legal, yes. Is it ethical, no way!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am fine with what is perfectly legal


It may be legal but don't you care about things being ethical?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Is that you not deciding how the money that you would give the homeless guy should be spent though? Is that not contradictory to you disagreeing with the voucher system?


It is on a theoretical level. However, we live in a real and imperfect world - shades of grey rather than black and white. What's required is a level of understanding which can't be obtained from a lofty viewpoint based on moral imperatives.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

@Jesthar: Well, as far as I am aware, there is a) tax evasion and b) tax avoidance. b) is legal but a) is not? **Allegedly**


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

havoc said:


> moral imperatives.


I don't think that's the right wording for this


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Oh IDK... I'd rather my children grow up to be lazy but kind, than industrious only to learn how to make the rich and privileged richer and more privileged...
> 
> I don't know that I would call studying to be an accountant 'years of hard study and sacrifice' either LOL, you do seem to have some strange thought processes!


As I was growing up, I was taught that you reap the rewards of your efforts. If you do put effort into something (working) you'll be rewarded for it (satisfaction and money which you need to have a good standard of living).

I am against teaching children that a self-entitled attitude and laziness is okay but that is my opinion. And studying to become an accountant does require a lot of studying (degree, other professional qualifications, multiple courses) which requires time, effort and sacrifice.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> As I was growing up, I was taught that you reap the rewards of your efforts. If you do put effort into something (working) you'll be rewarded for it (satisfaction and money which you need to have a good standard of living).


I was taught this to but it's Bol***ks, You work your socks off, do your best and some brown noser gets all the credit or your boss cheats you out of half your redundancy


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Is that you not deciding how the money that you would give the homeless guy should be spent though? Is that not contradictory to you disagreeing with the voucher system?


Not really. I always ask if there is anything they need from the shop, and if there is, I buy it for them. Some thank me and say no, but they still get a bit of interaction, a bit of a chat if they want one - you know, someone treating them like a fellow human for a brief moment. A friend of mine used to run a food cart in a local town centre, and I got most of my handling the homeless training from him. He knew which ones were legit, which were chancers, which he could trust to run the takings to the bank etc. And he always distributed his leftover food to them at the end of the day.

There's also another angle. Homeless people are, for want of a better phrase, already easily identifiable as a group of people. People on benefits, particularly those who find themselves there due to a sudden change in circumstances, generally are not visibly distinguishable. However, we've already seen on this thread that kids entitled to free school lunches get bullied. It should come as no surprise that adults are just as bad about stigmatising those on benefits. In the USA they have food stamps, and many people on them HATE using them as it so often draws 'get a job' or 'my taxes shouldn't pay for you kind of people to live' kind of comments from complete strangers. I'd hate to see that kind of culture become acceptable here.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> As I was growing up, I was taught that you reap the rewards of your efforts. If you do put effort into something (working) you'll be rewarded for it (satisfaction and money which you need to have a good standard of living).
> 
> I am against teaching children that a self-entitled attitude and laziness is okay but that is my opinion. And studying to become an accountant does require a lot of studying (degree, other professional qualifications, multiple courses) which requires time, effort and sacrifice.


You don't necessarily need a degree.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

Jesthar said:


> No, it's not the accountants I question - as you say, they are doing a job, and doing it well (preseumably with excellent work ethic). Rather, it's the _ethics _of the very rich and/or very profitable who seek to become even richer by slyly wriggling out of a very large proportion of their taxes I was highlighting, and that I'm not fine with. Yes, they are legally able to to do it, and so could anyone - except they can't because only the very wealthy can afford the means to do it. Not to mention the means to influence the politicians to keep things that way. So, is their tax avoidance legal, yes. Is it ethical, no way!


It is not just the large corporations that are doing it legally but there are a lot of sole traders/ limited companies who avoid taxes (i.e. they pay themselves a salary under the personal tax allowance and get the rest in dividends which is taxed at a lower band). How is that any different? Any organisation aims to be more efficient financially. If you don't do anything illegal i.e. tax evasion then there is nothing immoral in it.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> As I was growing up, I was taught that you reap the rewards of your efforts. If you do put effort into something (working) you'll be rewarded for it (satisfaction and money which you need to have a good standard of living).


Hrm....

Bob and Jeff both go to medical school to become doctors. Bob was lucky to be born with high intelligence and the work to make the grades to get in to medical school was relatively easy for him. Jeff was lucky to be born with rich parents who donated heavily to the university he was eventually accepted in to. He does not have the natural intelligence Bob has, but he does work very hard and manages to scrape by. 
Bob graduates and goes in to plastic surgery because he knows that's where he will make the most money. 
Jeff graduates and goes in to plastic surgery because his parents push him in that direction.

Bob now lives a luxurious lifestyle, he makes his own hours, his surgeries are all scheduled, and he charges exorbitant prices because he has the clientele that will pay for it. 
Jeff decided to use his skills to help those less privileged. He works in a regional hospital patching up facial injuries in the emergency room. His hours are crazy, and when he gets time off, he volunteers for doctors without borders fixing cleft lips in developing countries. He gets no compensation for this work.

Who is more deserving of financial rewards here?

Let's not forget, we live in a world where football stars are paid ridiculous sums for kicking a ball around, and teachers and nurses are paid a pittance. 
Hard work = rewards eh? 
Okay....


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> For this reason, this is the last time I reply to any of your responses as you seem to like to antagonise people and playing mind games. I will no longer entertain your nonsense.





Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Never said that. I said I will not reply back to a particular person who keeps twisting my words to make me sound bad (not just in this thread but in others too).


First quoted post clearly says any
Second quoted post says you never said that

I smell burning pants:Couchpotato:Couchpotato
I hereby declare :Troll:Troll in our midst:Bored


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> It is not just the large corporations that are doing it legally but there are a lot of sole traders/ limited companies who avoid taxes (i.e. they pay themselves a salary under the personal tax allowance and get the rest in dividends which is taxed at a lower band). How is that any different? Any organisation aims to be more efficient financially. If you don't do anything illegal i.e. tax evasion then there is nothing immoral in it.


Sole traders don't get dividends.

And it's something that HMRC want to crack down on for limited companies, along with 'employing' your wife on the limited company books etc and paying her a dividend.

But for sheer amount of tax avoided, this is a drop in the ocean compared to the big guys.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

MilleD said:


> You don't necessarily need a degree.


You do to be a chartered accountant. I am not referring to people doing basic book keeping for sole traders..


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You do to be a chartered accountant. I am not referring to people doing basic book keeping for sole traders..


I'm a chartered accountant. I do not have a degree.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> You do to be a chartered accountant. I am not referring to people doing basic book keeping for sole traders..


You can do an apprenticeship if you have the right A levels, so no, you don't always need a degree

Loving the way you make a bold sweeping statement, then change the goalposts when challenged on it


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> First quoted post clearly says any
> Second quoted post says you never said that
> 
> I smell burning pants:Couchpotato:Couchpotato
> I hereby declare :Troll:Troll in our midst:Bored





MilleD said:


> Sole traders don't get dividends.


Well done, you just proved yourself wrong. I did state that I won't reply a particular person who I was referring to in the first comment you quoted.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

mrs phas said:


> You can do an apprenticeship if you have the right A levels, so no, you don't always need a degree
> 
> Loving the way you make a bold sweeping statement, then change the goalposts when challenged on it


I didn't do an apprenticeship, I also don't have the 'right' A levels. I'm still chartered. There are many different routes to go down.

I think part of the OPs issue is that they think their knowledge is empirical when it really isn't.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Well done, you just proved yourself wrong. I did state that I won't reply a particular person who I was referring to in the first comment you quoted.


Its there in black and white, quoted so you cannot go back and change it, so again, more pants burning

Presuming of course you meant me, as you've got your quotes and replies in a twist again


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MilleD said:


> I didn't do an apprenticeship, I also don't have the 'right' A levels. I'm still chartered. There are many different routes to go down.
> 
> I think part of the OPs issue is that they think their knowledge is empirical when it really isn't.


Oh I know, I was merely pointing out one route that didn't necessitate a degree to become a chartered accountant
I hope, having got there, you are proud of yourself, you've gone the hard way and got there just the same 
Xx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This thread is titled as a discussion. That means it's open to people with a variety of opinions and should be an opportunity to learn from others with a wealth of different experiences. Why title it as such if that's not what you want


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> resuming of course you meant me, as you've got your quotes and replies in a twist again


No, I was not referring to you.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

havoc said:


> This thread is titled as a discussion. That means it's open to people with a variety of opinions and should be an opportunity to learn from others with a wealth of different experiences. Why title it as such if that's not what you want


Yes, I am the one who is getting attacked left right centre with people twisting my words and me having to repeat myself to clarify and avoid certain comments from fuelling other people.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> No, I was not referring to you.


Ah, must be me


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> It is not just the large corporations that are doing it legally but there are a lot of sole traders/ limited companies who avoid taxes (i.e. they pay themselves a salary under the personal tax allowance and get the rest in dividends which is taxed at a lower band). How is that any different? Any organisation aims to be more efficient financially. If you don't do anything illegal i.e. tax evasion then there is nothing immoral in it.


Sole traders (I AM one!) don't get dividends - you have to have shareholders for that!

And yes, businesses and people strive to be tax efficient. My workplace offers a 'salary sacrifice' option to employees as that is more tax effficient for both them and us. I'm part of it, as having a bit more money now means I can focus on overpaying the mortgage and save myself a samll fortune in interest payments. The flip side is it means a lower accual in the pension pot.

So yes, I'm taking advantage of a common tax reducing strategy. You might call that hypocritical, I suppose, but given that the government itself actually gives extensive information on setting up such schemes on their website (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/salary-sacrifice-and-the-effects-on-paye), I'm not going to lose sleep over it!

What I do take issue with is the technically-just-about-legal loophole schemes aimed at getting the very rich and/or very profitable out of paying the taxes everyone else considers routine.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

MilleD said:


> Ah, must be me


No, don't flatter yourself.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

I am closing this thread/ deleting it as it getting out of topic and becoming full of pettish childish comments.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> No, don't flatter yourself.


Ha ha ha!!!

I only say that because mine was the other reply you quoted alongside Mrs Phas.

:Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am closing this thread/ deleting it as it getting out of topic and becoming full of pettish childish comments.


Ah yes, good choice to run away when things don't go your way.

You could, just work harder, and reap those rewards....


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am closing this thread/ deleting it as it getting out of topic and becoming full of pettish childish comments.


I'm astounded that you expected anything different to be honest.

You come on here moaning about benefit claimants, then infer that the people responding are themselves benefit claimants.

You do see how it wasn't going to go any other way don't you?

And yes, that was meant to be condescending HTH.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Yes, I am the one who is getting attacked left right centre with people twisting my words and me having to repeat myself to clarify and avoid certain comments from fuelling other people.


If you feel a post attacks you personally, you can always report it to the moderators. If they agree, they will remove the post, as personal attacks are not permitted. If not, it will be allowed to stay.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Yes, I am the one who is getting attacked left right centre with people twisting my words and me having to repeat myself to clarify and avoid certain comments from fuelling other people.


I did ask two questions to try and clarify what you meant but you seemed to prefer to argue rather than reply


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> I am closing this thread/ deleting it as it getting out of topic and becoming full of pettish childish comments.


You don't have that power, only the moderators do. It would be a shame to close it, though, as it's been a verr interesting and balanced discussion on the whole  I've learned a lot.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Beth78 said:


> Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


You might be best off starting a separate thread if you need some advice as this one might scare someone who's been through the process off.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Beth78 said:


> Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


I haven't myself, but I do know common advice is to take along your phone and audio record the whole thing, as what ends up in the report may bear no resemblance to what happened in the interview.

Also, always answer the questions from a 'worst of the worst day' perspective, not an average day.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

MilleD said:


> You might be best off starting a separate thread if you need some advice as this one might scare someone who's been through the process off.


I don't understand


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


 My daughter has, but I don't know what the questions were, all I know is she is appealing as she was turned down, which apparently a lot of people are, but are successful post-appeal.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> I've learned a lot.


I have too and that doesn't happen much these days


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Beth78 said:


> I don't understand


I just meant you might want to start your own thread as you might get more advice that way.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

For any moderators reading, could you delete this thread?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MilleD said:


> I just meant you might want to start your own thread as you might get more advice that way.


Thinking about it, I'm surprised there isn't a 'PIP Help and Support' thread in the Health section. Not hat I need it, but I know we have a fair few people eduring the process on here...


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> For any moderators reading, could you delete this thread?


Why not just stop reading it? It's a good thread!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> Why not just stop reading it? It's a good thread!


Maybe they'll come back when they've matured a little.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I've made the decision to leave the thread open although the OP will no longer be participating, so please don't bother replying to them.

Obviously if anyone feels personally attacked or it resorts to ad hominems then please do hit the report button


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/b...carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form/ This links to how to complete the form. CAB can help or there is a link to other support agencies.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


One person is typically there asking the questions.
They typically go through the questions on your form - asking the same questions, asking things about what you've put for more clarity.
You are allowed to have someone there with you - friend, family member, carer, social worker, welfare officer if your council have them etc... my mum had me, her CPN and the welfare officer from the council who also helped with the form. I think you need to ask for permission if you wish to record the interview yourself.

The welfare officer did advise us that many people do get turned out - however are often accepted upon appeal. My mum was accepted and didn't have to go through the appeal process.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

ShibaPup said:


> I think you need to ask for permission if you wish to record the interview yourself.
> 
> The welfare officer did advise us that many people do get turned out - however are often accepted upon appeal. My mum was accepted and didn't have to go through the appeal process.


You have to tell them in advance you are going to record it, yes. You also have to provide the recording equipment yourself (uniquely! All other benefit assessment processes, such as ESA, provide the recording equipment for you), and it HAS to be a - get this - a tape recorder or CD recorder! Phones or anything else digital is banned, although sneakily recording it on a mobile phone is common. They can stop the assessment if you get caught doing it, though. They will also argue a phone recording is inadmissable as evidence, although the appeals court often allows them as evidence anyway as far as I understand it.

You also have to record two tapes/CDs at once as you have to give a copy to the assessor when they leave. The recorder(s) need to be battery powered as they probably won't let you plug them in to the mains if they haven't been PAT tested (even if they are brand new and you have the receipt to prove it; devices only have to be PAT tested once they are a year old). It's almost like they have something to hide... 

Bog standard audio tape.CD recording are pretty cheaply from supermarkets, Argos, online, I think, but make sure you get one that definitely RECORDS two tapes/CDs at once, plus plenty of batteries and plenty of recording media in case the assessment lasts for hours - and test them first!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


I have. Any questions you have you could PM me as I'd rather answer in private if that is OK with you.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> For any moderators reading, could you delete this thread?


Dear mods,
Please don't
Yes its been divisive, but there's also been some helpful and wise posts within it
Would be a shame to lock and delete just cos one person has the hump because it didn't all go their way
Also its been refreshing and enlightening, to me personally, as a claimant, to see how many members actually understand the difficulties and fragilities that claimants live under


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> Dear mods,
> Please don't
> Yes its been divisive, but there's also been some helpful and wise posts within it
> Would be a shame to lock and delete just cos one person has the hump because it didn't all go their way
> Also its been refreshing and enlightening, to me personally, as a claimant, to see how many members actually understand the difficulties and fragilities that claimants live under


I am still here, you know. I had requested to delete my thread because I felt ganged up on. I am putting my point across without personally attacking anyone while some people feel they have the right to do so. There is no need for pettiness and mocking comments. Comparing opinions is okay as long as people are respectful of others.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh dear.....


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Personally I don't see anyone betting attacked or bullied...this is an emotive subject with many differing views so while we keep things civil then the thread will remain open.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

so you left, deleted your account and rejoined under a different name
or
seeing the date of your pseudonym's joining
you had two accounts open
did you ask mods permission to do so?
as in terms and conditions you agreed to upon joining the site?
if not
bye bye

eta:* It is against forum rules to open more than one account -*
from
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/forum-rules.429795/



canedacaccia said:


> I am still here, you know. I had requested to delete my thread because I felt ganged up on. I am putting my point across without personally attacking anyone while some people feel they have the right to do so. There is no need for pettiness and mocking comments. Comparing opinions is okay as long as people are respectful of others.


pettiness and mocking comments??
oh how little you know my style of posting
if you think THAT was petty and/or mocking


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> so you left, deleted your account and rejoined under a different name
> or
> *seeing the date of your pseudoym's joining *
> you had two accounts open
> ...


Well spotted, I'd not noticed that.

That changes things.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I'm laughing even more now. The OP didn't get the response they wanted and has now spat their dummy out. If they were genuine they would have stayed around and taken the flak. Either argue your corner or admit you were wrong.*


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

To be fair to the op when they said:

“For this reason, this is the last time I reply to any of your responses as you seem to like to antagonise people and playing mind games. I will no longer entertain your nonsense.”

It was in reply to this:

“Honestly you haven't a clue have you.. However you've got everyone replying and probably giggling at the stupidity of your naivety too”

They meant “last time I reply to any of your (lullabydream’s) responses” not everyone’s. I’m guessing the (young?) OP has a friend who annoys them by getting enough money to spend their time playing computer games, when they have to go work. We maybe were not particularly supportive either.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> I'm guessing the (young?) OP


More than likely very young. In a way I'm quite jealous, I'd love to still have the absolute certainty of youth.

I'm reminded of great advice given to me over my know it all teenage son. 'Don't get mad, learn what you can while he's still young enough to know everything'.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

havoc said:


> More than likely very young. In a way I'm quite jealous, I'd love to still have the absolute certainty of youth.


 I still have to a certain extent, cos I haven't grown up yet :Shamefullyembarrased Though I never expect others to agree with me, and I think it's a waste of energy to try 
As long as I'm happy and I don't hurt anyone I don't see a problem with being right 99% of the time


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Elles said:


> They meant "last time I reply to any of your (lullabydream's) responses" not everyone's. I'm guessing the (young?) OP has a friend who annoys them by getting enough money to spend their time playing computer games, when they have to go work. We maybe were not particularly supportive either.


Perhaps, but they didn't lead with that information, they just started in on benefit claimants in general. It took 40+ posts overall and 7 of their own, which included a lot of inflammatory suggestions about how the benefit system should be made even more draconian and judgemental than it already is, to even mention their friend! And a lot longer again to get a decent picture of the scenario. So even if they hadn't also subsequently served up large side orders of frequent factual inaccuracy, condecension, patronisiation, goalpost moving and general whinging, the whole approach was a bit of a pigs breakfast from the start, unfortunately, if a real debate was what was intended.

I think it's a great testament to the maturity of everyone else involved (including the mods) that despite all that the debate remained civil, informative and unlocked! 

Anyway, they are gone, so we'd best not waste any more time on them unless we want the thread closed for real... 



rona said:


> I still have to a certain extend, cos I haven't grown up yet :Shamefullyembarrased


Heh, I'm the same - growing old is a matter of time, but growing up is optional!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rona said:


> As long as I'm happy and I don't hurt anyone I don't see a problem with being right 99% of the time


And the 1% - is that the time you thought you were wrong but you weren't


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Never said that. I said I will not reply back to a particular person who keeps twisting my words to make me sound bad (not just in this thread but in others too).
> 
> I am opinionated and I do fight my corner (if I feel attacked) . I don't think that is synonyms of immaturity but rather stubborn personality.


Are you new to forums? Generally , you introduce yourself and send a few general posts . To come to a forum and start a controversial non pet thread such as this straight off , can be seen as trolling .

Every one is entitled to fight their corner , we all do but its easier if you get to know people first , some will become friends and some you put on ignore


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Are you new to forums? Generally , you introduce yourself and send a few general posts . To come to a forum and start a controversial non pet thread such as this straight off , can be seen as trolling .
> 
> Every one is entitled to fight their corner , we all do but its easier if you get to know people first , some will become friends and some you put on ignore


they did have some other threads, before this one, on the value of italian spinone over english bred


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> Has anyone been through the PIP claim interview? Just wondering what kind of questions they ask and how many people will be there.


Sairy beagle had one but she doesnt post here now, I think others had too. I think there would be one person at the interview , a nurse or similar , and they just go through your form with you .


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> Sairy beagle had one but she doesnt post here now, I think others had too. I think there would be one person at the interview , a nurse or similar , and they just go through your form with you .


That doesn't sound so scary. Might ask if I can have my CPN there with me, shes amazing.
The NHS gets a bad wrap but I've had so many great, caring people looking after me recently.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

havoc said:


> And the 1% - is that the time you thought you were wrong but you weren't


Well...................it just seemed a bit arrogant to say I was right ALL of the time


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> That doesn't sound so scary. Might ask if I can have my CPN there with me, shes amazing.
> The NHS gets a bad wrap but I've had so many great, caring people looking after me recently.


You can have someone you know with you .

Ive not claimed this myself but Ive been thinking about it . I tried to PM you but it wouldnt send , perhaps you could PM me.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Beth78 said:


> That doesn't sound so scary. Might ask if I can have my CPN there with me, shes amazing.
> The NHS gets a bad wrap but I've had so many great, caring people looking after me recently.


dont be lulled into a sense of security with them
when my asc son had his, she saw him have a full blown meltdown, as they refused a home assessment, then twisted my words, as, due to the meltdown, he had a spell of mutism, to say selective mutism, meant he chose when to speak or not
suffice to say there were many other lies in the report
and
she cured his autism by scoringhim 0 on everything
the MR was refused, as it always is, as the dwp wont overturn a dwp decision
but 
we won on tribunal
and hes now awaiting his back pay for mobility, as he scored 6 ( when you need 8 minimum) as they disregarded the effect of his autism had on his anxiety and mh levels in regard to public travelling


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> dont be lulled into a sense of security with them
> when my asc son had his, she saw him have a full blown meltdown, as they refused a home assessment, then twisted my words, as, due to the meltdown, he had a spell of mutism, to say selective mutism, meant he chose when to speak or not
> suffice to say there were many other lies in the report
> and
> ...


Has he been diagnosed with ASD?
I thought putting in my ASD diagnosis letter would be enough.
Maybe not.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> she cured his autism by scoringhim 0 on everything


I know it isn't funny but :Hilarious I know they think they're gods but I hadn't realised they'd progressed to evangelical healing.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

mrs phas said:


> pettiness and mocking comments??
> oh how little you know my style of posting
> if you think THAT was petty and/or mocking


Can I be naughty and agree with this.

Having been at the receiving end of a (probably deserving) tongue lashing in the past, I thought you were being quite nice in this thread.



:Happy


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MilleD said:


> Can I be naughty and agree with this.
> 
> Having been at the receiving end of a (probably deserving) tongue lashing in the past, I thought you were being quite nice in this thread.
> 
> ...



i never set out to be
sometimes i tend to speak as if i was in a real life debate
sometimes my indignation runs away with me
and fools and i just dont mix

if i ever upset anyone, without good reason, then i wholeheartedly apologise
if i upset anyone cos you were being a ****
tough you deserved it:Happy:Happy


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Beth78 said:


> Has he been diagnosed with ASD?
> I thought putting in my ASD diagnosis letter would be enough.
> Maybe not.


yes since 1993, just before he reached 4


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

havoc said:


> I know it isn't funny but :Hilarious I know they think they're gods but I hadn't realised they'd progressed to evangelical healing.


if you want funny, then this cracked me and his brother up, we just couldnt believe it
this is totally true, i swear on all thats holy, in whomevers world, she really had no concept about ASD and lateral thinking

Assessor : can you spell world?
Son: yes
A: no, i meant can you spell it to me
S: i t
A: * getting angry* no no no, can you spell the word world to me please?
S: oh right, why didnt you say that in the first place?

( my other son and i were silently crying with laughter at this point)


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> if you want funny, then this cracked me and his brother up, we just couldnt believe it
> this is totally true, i swear on all thats holy, in whomevers world, she really had no concept about ASD and lateral thinking
> 
> Assessor : can you spell world?
> ...


What on earth was that


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> if you want funny, then this cracked me and his brother up, we just couldnt believe it
> this is totally true, i swear on all thats holy, in whomevers world, she really had no concept about ASD and lateral thinking
> 
> Assessor : can you spell world?
> ...


I'd have been in pain from trying not to laugh, I love a fellow pedant. I've been there before - in court! Thank goodness the judge decided to berate the witness long enough for me to compose myself


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Beth78 said:


> What on earth was that


'That' was a tick box exercise being run by someone who doesn't have the intelligence to think outside their instructions to refuse benefits at all costs.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Beth78 said:


> What on earth was that





havoc said:


> 'That' was a tick box exercise being run by someone who doesn't have the intelligence to think outside their instructions to refuse benefits at all costs.


yep that was a test on his cognative understanding, from, as havoc says, a tick sheet, 
they dont go off script, because they might find that, that round peg, just doesnt fit into that tick box after all
despite that happening
she scored him 0,
meaning he had no cognative problems at all


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

[


Beth78 said:


> That doesn't sound so scary. Might ask if I can have my CPN there with me, shes amazing.
> The NHS gets a bad wrap but I've had so many great, caring people looking after me recently.


I think you need to make it clear that whilst you may be able to do certain things on a good day (make dinner for example) it will leave you in pain/unable to cope for hours afterwards, etc.

Otherwise they just tick the box YES and that could count against you.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Lurcherlad said:


> [
> 
> I think you need to make it clear that whilst you may be able to do certain things on a good day (make dinner for example) it will leave you in pain/unable to cope for hours afterwards, etc.
> 
> Otherwise they just tick the box YES and that could count against you.


The possible problem may be that I have no "physical" problems.
Its mental health and autism that is debilitating.
And this can be a very misunderstood area. As Mrs phas has said.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's so natural to want to showcase what you can do with a disability but it will do you no favours in this instance. They always over egg that pudding anyway. Rather than giving a positive answer to any question you have to concentrate on the negatives - it's barmy I know. So, if asked if you can do something and you can with help the answer isn't 'yes with help', it's 'not without help'. If the assessor hears that 'yes' they'll not hear any qualifying statement. It's a stupid game but you have to play it.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MilleD said:


> I'm astounded that you expected anything different to be honest.


Astounded? I'm astounded the thread has not been closed . . . just saying.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

havoc said:


> It's so natural to want to showcase what you can do with a disability but it will do you no favours in this instance. They always over egg that pudding anyway. Rather than giving a positive answer to any question you have to concentrate on the negatives - it's barmy I know. So, if asked if you can do something and you can with help the answer isn't 'yes with help', it's 'not without help'. If the assessor hears that 'yes' they'll not hear any qualifying statement. It's a stupid game but you have to play it.


This. I hear this time and time again from my PIP awarded friends. If you give them ANY positive but qualified statement, they will latch on to the positive bit and ignore everything else. Things like 'Can you turn on the shower' and 'can you pour cereal into a bowl' magically get upgraded to 'Can wash, dress and feed themselves without assistance' etc.

One memorable example from a friend who can't walk far (before they learned better) was 'How far can you walk' combined with a later ambush question of 'how far away is the nearest shop.' The assessor took the answers of 100m on a good day and that there was a newsagent at the end of her road, and combined them in to 'can do the household shopping with no problems' or words to that effect

So yes, negatives only in a PIP assessment. Save the positive stuff for people who aren't actively looking to use it against you!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> It's so natural to want to showcase what you can do with a disability but it will do you no favours in this instance. They always over egg that pudding anyway. Rather than giving a positive answer to any question you have to concentrate on the negatives - it's barmy I know. So, if asked if you can do something and you can with help the answer isn't 'yes with help', it's 'not without help'. If the assessor hears that 'yes' they'll not hear any qualifying statement. It's a stupid game but you have to play it.





Jesthar said:


> This. I hear this time and time again from my PIP awarded friends. If you give them ANY positive but qualified statement, they will latch on to the positive bit and ignore everything else. Things like 'Can you turn on the shower' and 'can you pour cereal into a bowl' magically get upgraded to 'Can wash, dress and feed themselves without assistance' etc.
> 
> One memorable example from a friend who can't walk far (before they learned better) was 'How far can you walk' combined with a later ambush question of 'how far away is the nearest shop.' The assessor took the answers of 100m on a good day and that there was a newsagent at the end of her road, and combined them in to 'can do the household shopping with no problems' or words to that effect
> 
> So yes, negatives only in a PIP assessment. Save the positive stuff for people who aren't actively looking to use it against you!


Sadly yes, that is what makes these assessments so draining and demoralising - I was told to fill out the assessment thinking about yourself at your worst.

Always tell the truth of course, but you at your worst truth, rather than a you on a good day truth.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I don't think this friend of mine would agree with you that benefits are easy to obtain and exploit:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-news/how-many-more-lives-ruined-16122083.amp


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Spinonistaitaliano94 said:


> Agreed but I believe reassessments are necessary to make sure that people claiming disability allowance are indeed unfit to work. There are many instances where people could do some form of work (depending on their impairment/ disability) which would also give them the chance to feel part of the community. In terms of people with mental illnesses the NHS should cover extra costs for medications if required (as in Scotland). I don't think that people with mental illnesses should isolate themselves as to alleviate their mental illnesses. I'd rather the money went into programmes to rehabilitate people with mental illnesses so that they be reintegrated into the community and work environment (isolation is only a short term solution to the problem IMO).


They already do frequent reassessments, how much more stress do you want to put on sick and disabled people?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I've been following this thread but not posted up until now because others have said it all far more eloquently than I could. I've been fortunate not to be in that situation myself, but have had friends and family members who have/are, and have heard from them just how degrading, petty and dehumanising the whole process is already - without making it worse by issuing coupons instead of cash!

On the subject of coupons, one of my friends opened her home to a lady whose asylum claim was processing. As an asylum seeker, this lady was given only coupons to buy essentials for herself and her toddler. The problem was, the nearest shop that accepted the coupons was a good three miles away, and with no cash she couldn't even catch the bus there! If it hadn't been for my friend helping her out with bus fares, she'd have had to have walked for an hour each way, carrying her shopping and her toddler!



mrs phas said:


> if you want funny, then this cracked me and his brother up, we just couldnt believe it
> this is totally true, i swear on all thats holy, in whomevers world, she really had no concept about ASD and lateral thinking
> 
> Assessor : can you spell world?
> ...


A little off topic, but I had a similar conversation with my autistic son at the opticians! (The optician obviously had little experience of autism!)

Optician: Which one looks clearer - the left one, the right one, or are they the same?
Son: Ummm...
Optician: Are they the same?
Son: No, the one on the left is on a red background and has the small letters going towards the right. The one on the right has a green background and has the small letters going towards the left. Also, the letters are different.
Optician: Err...
Me (jumping in): But do they both look as clear as each other?
Son: Yes! (to optician) Is that what you meant to ask?

I dread the day when he's old enough to have to go for PIP assessments!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I worked for 40 years and only claimed benefits twice in that time: when I first left school and I was looking for a job and in 2014 when I had my hysterectomy and treatment for cancer.

I am hyper mobile and as a result, I have suffered with arthritis most of my adult life. It wasn’t until 2015 that I began to lose the use of my legs. The pain is horrific and due to my hyper mobility my muscles and ligaments are weak and won’t hold me up. I struggle with stairs and every step I take is agony. My hands cannot form a fist anymore, so I have no grip. My knees and hands are misshapen as well as painful.

If I drop something on the floor, it stays on the floor, because if I attempt to pick it up, I will land on the floor alongside it. My husband cannot help me up, because the strength has gone from my legs, I cannot help in getting myself up: I’m a dead weight. This means an ambulance would have to be called to get me off the floor. I need an operation on my knees, but I can’t have it, because due to lack of mobility and depression that causes me to make bad food choices, my BMI is more than 35. I’ve been trying really hard to lose weight and I have, but it’s slow, because I’m immobile, but I am trying to help myself and my doctors are pleased with my progress.

I tried to work as long as I could; I had my own business which did make it easier, because I could take time off whenever I needed to, but when you’re self-employed, if you don’t work, you don’t get paid. Eventually, I was taking so much time off, I began to lose clients. My income dropped to an unmanageable level. I had no choice, I had to apply for PIP.

After filling in a novel length form, I had to travel 100 miles for an assessment. I was asked to climb up on a stool. After several failed attempts because my legs were giving way, she asked me to squat. My legs caved in underneath me and she had to bring in several men to help lift me off the floor. This was in 2016. I have to go through it all again in 2021. I’m no better than I was in 2016, in fact, I’m considerably worse.

I have had pets my entire married life. I went on PIP with those pets. I had a safeguard in place. If need be my sister would take them, but my sister has since died of cancer. How was I supposed to foresee that? She wasn’t old!

Quite frankly your ignorance astounds me!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> I worked for 40 years and only claimed benefits twice in that time: when I first left school and I was looking for a job and in 2014 when I had my hysterectomy and treatment for cancer.
> 
> I am hyper mobile and as a result, I have suffered with arthritis most of my adult life. It wasn't until 2015 that I began to lose the use of my legs. The pain is horrific and due to my hyper mobility my muscles and ligaments are weak and won't hold me up. I struggle with stairs and every step I take is agony. My hands cannot form a fist anymore, so I have no grip. My knees and hands are misshapen as well as painful.
> 
> ...


  Thats just awful . The firm has a contract and they just want to get as many people off PIP and ESA as they can.
Im sorry you are in such pain . 

About PIP , it says you cannot claim it after retirement age but if you claim before then you will still get it after retirement age . 
Does anyone know why that is ?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Thats just awful . The firm has a contract and they just want to get as many people off PIP and ESA as they can.
> Im sorry you are in such pain .
> 
> About PIP , it says you cannot claim it after retirement age but if you claim before then you will still get it after retirement age .
> Does anyone know why that is ?


I believe at 65 it changes to Attendance Allowance.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

If you claim pips prior to 65 then you can continue on it
After 65 its deemed you would need help anyway, as you are old and pensionable, you'd walk slower, arthritis etc would set in, etc, so they downgrade it to attendance allowance, which is much less

Its a joke when the government expect you to work til you die in the traces
Bit like the 6 month rule
Be given the medication to prolong life, but you'll still, definitely, die within a year or two= no pips under special rules
Refuse medicine and be told you, could die within 6 months =pips waved through on special rules
They make no allowances for the difference between the words definitely and could


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Sacremist and @mrs phas Thanks.  It would be worth me claiming PIP before 66. Im waiting to see how things pan put with my RA treatment. Can't have one drug because I had cancer, infusions havent worked , there is a new type of drug out and its very expensive. It would be cheaper to give me PiP than the new drug . I could get a mobility scooter with it .

or maybe a horse and a holiday to Rome ! :Hilarious ( No , not really !)


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> @Sacremist and @mrs phas Thanks.  It would be worth me claiming PIP before 66. Im waiting to see how things pan put with my RA treatment. Can't have one drug because I had cancer, infusions havent worked , there is a new type of drug out and its very expensive. It would be cheaper to give me PiP than the new drug . I could get a mobility scooter with it .
> 
> or maybe a horse and a holiday to Rome ! :Hilarious ( No , not really !)


Just to mention, you need the higher mobility part of PIP to get a mobility scooter with motability, but if you do go down that route they are a good company.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ForestWomble said:


> Just to mention, you need the higher mobility part of PIP to get a mobility scooter with motability, but if you do go down that route they are a good company.


Thanks . I dont know how it would pan out but if I was awarded any part , i could use it for a wheel chair or scooter. 
Equipment is so expensive .


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

if youre 64 or younger now, then get on that phone monday and get a form sent out to you
they take your date of admission from the date of that phone call, so if you turn 65 before it all pans out, then it wont matter, you will be awarded pips, not attendance and when they ask at 66 whether youd care to change you say no
plain and simple
just be prepared to be in it for the long haul, its taking upto 8 months for some to get to award/ tribunal


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> @Sacremist and @mrs phas Thanks.  It would be worth me claiming PIP before 66. Im waiting to see how things pan put with my RA treatment. Can't have one drug because I had cancer, infusions havent worked , there is a new type of drug out and its very expensive. It would be cheaper to give me PiP than the new drug . I could get a mobility scooter with it .
> 
> or maybe a horse and a holiday to Rome ! :Hilarious ( No , not really !)


I would love a mobility scooter, but I can't afford one yet, plus I'm hoping to lose enough weight for them to operate and that might give me my mobility back. I'm seeing the doctor on Monday, orthopaedic doctor that is. I had an X-ray and I'm going for the results because my whole knee is swollen.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> I would love a mobility scooter, but I can't afford one yet, plus I'm hoping to lose enough weight for them to operate and that might give me my mobility back. I'm seeing the doctor on Monday, orthopaedic doctor that is. I had an X-ray and I'm going for the results because my whole knee is swollen.


I hope you get the operation .


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I hope you get the operation .


Thank you. There's nothing I would like more than to get my mobility back and return to working full time. I would be a lot better off financially.


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