# If you want to do something about..



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

"bad breeders" then lobby the owners of this site to stop accepting ads on their sister site, Pets4Homes, offering pregnant cats for sale. There was an ad running on there very recently by one breeder offering five, yes five, pregnant cats for sale. Shame on them and shame on the site ownership for accepting such ads.

This will probably be removed as swiftly as the other two threads, And therein lies your "cover up".


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## 2lisa2 (Apr 30, 2010)

ive seen quite a few adverts like that lately whats wrong with people


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Very true! That certainly would be one way. Still leaves the more crafty ones to go unnoticed, particularly since despite their own breeding practices they still dole out decent advice to others. 

Threads such as these tend to live longer when posted in chat rather than breeding too. Somehow moderating seems to be toughest in this part of the forum


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Hobbs, I only remembered you tend to get more of your nine lives in cat chat *after* hitting submit.

What I've never been able to get to grips with, as far as threads being pulled here goes, is what constitutes 'personal', given that many threads are locked for "getting personal". To me, a personal insult or criticism means something quite different than breeding practices being hotly debated... in a (surprise, surprise) cat breeding forum  But I suppose I need to stay off that subject and get back on topic.


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> Very true! That certainly would be one way. Still leaves the more crafty ones to go unnoticed, particularly since despite their own breeding practices they still dole out decent advice to others.
> 
> *Threads such as these tend to live longer when posted in chat rather than breeding too. Somehow moderating seems to be toughest in this part of the forum *


Do you think that's because the breeding forum radiates trouble sometimes, so therefore takes more moderating?

I'm sorry but that thread that has just been closed was posted in my opinion to create trouble .... what newbie goes back to a thread from June 2010 if not to stir things up?? Blimey when I was a newbie it took me months to work out some of the features on here!! :lol:

This is just my opinion of course


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Jenny1966 said:


> Do you think that's because the breeding forum radiates trouble sometimes, so therefore takes more moderating?
> 
> I'm sorry but that thread that has just been closed was posted in my opinion to create trouble .... what newbie goes back to a thread from June 2010 if not to stir things up?? Blimey when I was a newbie it took me months to work out some of the features on here!! :lol:
> 
> This is just my opinion of course


Does it attract trouble though or is it just one of the more emotive parts of the forum where animal welfare is often more of an immediate concern than the endless threads about cat names, cat carriers, cat names, cat food etc? I think one of the fundamental problems with this forum, and the cat breeding section in particular, is that people take things way too personally. Any criticism is seen as a personal attack, rather than just a decent piece of advice. And then it quickly descends into often unsubstanitated allegations of bullying, improper tone etc.

And I agree, the other thread was started to highlight what the OP felt was a double-standard. Some view it as starting trouble; others as highlighting the rotten core that is often brushed under the carpet.

No doubt this thread will soon be closed too.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Hobbs, I only remembered you tend to get more of your nine lives in cat chat *after* hitting submit.
> 
> What I've never been able to get to grips with, as far as threads being pulled here goes, is what constitutes 'personal', given that many threads are locked for "getting personal". To me, a personal insult or criticism means something quite different than breeding practices being hotly debated... in a (surprise, surprise) cat breeding forum  But I suppose I need to stay off that subject and get back on topic.


Debate and to some extent argument is fine. Having opinions is fine. Telling someone that you don't agree with they way they do something is okay. Telling someone that what they do is wrong and insulting them by calling them ignorant. stupid etc is not acceptable - that's what I mean if I close a thread because it has become personal. No matter what anyone else thinks every member here is entitled to their own opinions. If someone has different opinions then it is up to them to use their own reasoning as guidance to try and change perhaps outdated beliefs.


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

Do you think it's right that someone, who so obviously wasnt a newbie, can come back on and post threads like that?

I tend to stay out of this section because 1. I know nothing about breeding and 2. I dont like to see arguments!


What I also dont like is deliberate wind up merchants, because that is when trouble starts ..... most people can tolerate the odd clash in opinions, or personalities ..... but why do it on purpose?


Maybe I'm just too nice


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Debate and to some extent argument is fine. Having opinions is fine. Telling someone that you don't agree with they way they do something is okay. *Telling someone that what they do is wrong and insulting them by calling them ignorant. *stupid etc is not acceptable - that's what I mean if I close a thread because it has become personal. No matter what anyone else thinks every member here is entitled to their own opinions. If someone has different opinions then it is up to them to use their own reasoning as guidance to try and change perhaps outdated beliefs.


Is debate really fine Lynn? Seems to me that most debates on here suffer the same fate - heavy editing at its best or removal at its worst.

Since most people post on the breeding section because they don't know what to do, it is really insulting to think of them as ignorant? And surely, breeding is one of the areas where things can be done in the wrong way, possibly endangering the queen as well as the kittens. So, how can pointing this out not be acceptable.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Jenny1966 said:


> Do you think that's because the breeding forum radiates trouble sometimes, so therefore takes more moderating?
> 
> I'm sorry but that thread that has just been closed was posted in my opinion to create trouble .... what newbie goes back to a thread from June 2010 if not to stir things up?? Blimey when I was a newbie it took me months to work out some of the features on here!! :lol:
> 
> This is just my opinion of course


Actually, Jenny, much as I stand by what I what I said, I do agree that particular thread was started for exactly that reason; to stir up a bit of trouble.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> Is debate really fine Lynn? Seems to me that most debates on here suffer the same fate - heavy editing at its best or removal at its worst.
> 
> Since most people post on the breeding section because they don't know what to do, it is really insulting to think of them as ignorant? And surely, breeding is one of the areas where things can be done in the wrong way, possibly endangering the queen as well as the kittens. So, how can pointing this out not be acceptable.


Actually I was not referring to people who post on here looking for advice but rather the arguments that occur between breeders on here - and I'm sure you are well aware of the sort of arguments I mean.
It cannot be of any help to someone who finds themself with a pregnant cat and asking for help, to be confronted by some of the staggering arguments that have happened here in the past because there are major disagreements in the way things are done


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Debate and to some extent argument is fine. Having opinions is fine. Telling someone that you don't agree with they way they do something is okay. Telling someone that what they do is wrong and insulting them by calling them ignorant. stupid etc is not acceptable - that's what I mean if I close a thread because it has become personal. No matter what anyone else thinks every member here is entitled to their own opinions. If someone has different opinions then it is up to them to use their own reasoning as guidance to try and change perhaps outdated beliefs.


I completely see where you're coming from, Lynn. I've come to the conclusion that most threads of the ilk we're talking about will end up being removed for a few simple reasons - at some point during the debate *someone* will end up calling a spade a spade and, however much truth there may be in that, it oversteps forum rules. Emotive words such as ignorant or stupid are often the only conclusion to be drawn and then spoken, after endless (thread) pages of trying to reason with someone who cannot see the fundamental wrong in what they are doing.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Debate and to some extent argument is fine. Having opinions is fine. Telling someone that you don't agree with they way they do something is okay. Telling someone that what they do is wrong and insulting them by calling them ignorant. stupid etc is not acceptable - that's what I mean if I close a thread because it has become personal. No matter what anyone else thinks every member here is entitled to their own opinions. If someone has different opinions then it is up to them to use their own reasoning as guidance to try and change perhaps outdated beliefs.


Can you please explain, on the basis of what you've written above, why you closed a thread I'd opened a few days ago regarding dangerous practices to kittens?

The thread in question : http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/185627-serious-concerns.html I did not make any personal remarks, call anyone stupid etc etc, just highlighted dangerous practices that COULD cause death to kittens.

In my experience, there's no cosistency to threads being closed. It's all down to interpretation of whatever moderator is on duty at that time.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

dougal22 said:


> Can you please explain, on the basis of what you've written above, why you closed a thread I'd opened a few days ago regarding dangerous practices to kittens?
> 
> The thread in question : http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/185627-serious-concerns.html I did not make any personal remarks, call anyone stupid etc etc, just highlighted dangerous practices that COULD cause death to kittens.
> 
> In my experience, there's no cosistency to threads being closed. It's all down to interpretation of whatever moderator is on duty at that time.


If a moderator see's a thread they think is unsuitable for whatever reason then they have the right to close it or delete it as they see fit, its not something that is just done willy-nilly and Mods usually consult with eachother before a decision is made


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Debate and to some extent argument is fine. Having opinions is fine. Telling someone that you don't agree with they way they do something is okay. Telling someone that what they do is wrong and insulting them by calling them ignorant. stupid etc is not acceptable - that's what I mean if I close a thread because it has become personal. No matter what anyone else thinks every member here is entitled to their own opinions. If someone has different opinions then it is up to them to use their own reasoning as guidance to try and change perhaps outdated beliefs.





raggs said:


> If a moderator see's a thread they think is *unsuitable for whatever reason *then they have the right to close it or delete it as they see fit, its not something that is just done willy-nilly and Mods usually consult with eachother before a decision is made


But that ^^^^ is not what LML said on her post above, which just serves to make it even more confusing


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

I really dont see what is so confusing to you, Lynn explained why she saw fit to close the thread, there was a danger of it becoming a verbal fight and it was closed for that very reason, and i must say ive just read though the closed post in question and i think Lynn did the right thing. Moderators are not here to take sides and no matter who is right or who is wrong in their views on a post if a moderator thinks it may get out of hand they have every right to close that thread, best wishes to you..............Chris.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

raggs said:


> I really dont see what is so confusing to you, Lynn explained why she saw fit to close the thread, there was a danger of it becoming a verbal fight and it was closed for that very reason, and i must say ive just read though the closed post in question and i think Lynn did the right thing. Moderators are not here to take sides and no matter who is right or who is wrong in their views on a post if a moderator thinks it may get out of hand they have every right to close that thread, best wishes to you..............Chris.


You see raggs, this is where my confusion is coming from. It was obvious LML *pre-empted *a 'verbal fight' on the closed thread, which is totally inconsistent with her post in this thread.

So again, this is where my confusion comes from; the complete lack of consistency, which I am aware has been raised several times before on the forum by other members.


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## jay_bird (May 24, 2011)

I avoid the cat forums altogether because, with all due respect to the admin team, the moderation does seem very inconsistent indeed. I was a part of that closed to pre-empt verbal fight discussion the other night, and I dont understand it because I have witnessed many far worse discussions left untouched or just have the odd post edited out. 

I mostly just read the forums and dont post much, and I know in General Chat you can call members all sorts of names and no one moderates those posts, yet in the cat sections, especially here in breeding, it seems like its very heavily moderated in a very inconsistent manner.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jay_bird said:


> I avoid the cat forums altogether because, with all due respect to the admin team, the moderation does seem very inconsistent indeed. I was a part of that "closed to pre-empt verbal fight" discussion the other night, and I don't understand it because I have witnessed many far worse discussions left untouched or just have the odd post edited out.
> 
> I mostly just read the forums and don't post much, *and I know in General Chat you can call members all sorts of names and no one moderates those posts, yet in the cat sections, especially here in breeding, it seems like its very heavily moderated in a very inconsistent manner*.


You are very wrong.. If a thread or post is brought to our attention then we can take a look and deal with the thread post or poster in the most appropriate way the mods as a team can do..

You must realise that We do not agree with members slating others. And if spotted this will be dealt with no matter what part of the forum you are in..

Re consistency.. Please realise we are not here 24/7 and some threads will slip through unless we are made a aware there is an issue as we do not have the ability to read every thread on Petforums..

If you feel there is an issue in a thread please do not hesitate to contact a mod or report the post..


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

lymorelynn said:


> Debate and to some extent argument is fine. Having opinions is fine. Telling someone that you don't agree with they way they do something is okay. Telling someone that what they do is wrong and insulting them by calling them ignorant. stupid etc is not acceptable - that's what I mean if I close a thread because it has become personal. No matter what anyone else thinks every member here is entitled to their own opinions. If someone has different opinions then it is up to them to use their own reasoning as guidance to try and change perhaps outdated beliefs.


:thumbup1:
there are a group of posters who as soon as you see one of them post you know to stop reading as a slanging match is about to start.The thread then becomes pointless. I am sure the mods see this too.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> *Does it attract trouble though or is it just one of the more emotive parts of the forum where animal welfare is often more of an immediate concern than the endless threads about cat names, cat carriers, cat names, cat food etc? *I think one of the fundamental problems with this forum, and the cat breeding section in particular, is that people take things way too personally. Any criticism is seen as a personal attack, rather than just a decent piece of advice. And then it quickly descends into often unsubstanitated allegations of bullying, improper tone etc.
> 
> And I agree, the other thread was started to highlight what the OP felt was a double-standard. Some view it as starting trouble; others as highlighting the rotten core that is often brushed under the carpet.
> 
> No doubt this thread will soon be closed too.


I don't think that it attracts trouble I think its more of a case of many of the members of petforums are very passionate about what they do.. whether it be breeding or helping in rescue.. many peoples ideas differ and because members are so passionate often threads can get debating with each others views.. And when In a heated mood because you are very passionate I do believe some people on the internet do say things in a slightly different manner.. Or is it because we can't see each others body language.. Either way if it does get heated and over step the mark of giving advice then obviously this is when a thread will get moderated..

I also do believe the thread in question was made to stir amongst the cat people.. causing more bad feeling.. And I truly hope we can rise above this posters attempts and carry on..

Re the advertising of pets etc to homes free or for sale maybe its something people need to have a discussion on and then make a suggest to the forum owner..


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

northnsouth said:


> :thumbup1:
> there are a group of posters who as soon as you see one of them post you know to stop reading as a slanging match is about to start.The thread then becomes pointless. I am sure the mods see this too.


As I understand it the people who are passionate about the subject don't see it as pointless and if they did they wouldn't be bothering to post on these threads.. But maybe some do need to have a little think before they go posting replies and I think that can be said for all of us.. I guess we all have our moments..


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> *Is debate really fine Lynn? Seems to me that most debates on here suffer the same fate - heavy editing at its best or removal at its worst. *
> 
> Since most people post on the breeding section because they don't know what to do, it is really insulting to think of them as ignorant? And surely, breeding is one of the areas where things can be done in the wrong way, possibly endangering the queen as well as the kittens. So, how can pointing this out not be acceptable.


Quite a few debates on here get quite personal and result in quite nasty mud slinging and maybe if some sat back and had a look after the heat of the moment they may realise this.. heavily edited posts maybe removed so other posters do not feel they have to jump on the band wagon.. Therefore causing more heavy moderation..

I think lots of people breed think you just let the pet get on with it.. as pets were once in the wild.. therefore they do not realise what can go wrong.. And ranting at these types I see only going one way.. Making these members very stubborn to the situation rather than learning something from it..


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Jenny1966 said:


> Do you think it's right that someone, who so obviously wasnt a newbie, can come back on and post threads like that?


That's what I thought - getting banned after 18 posts has to be some sort of record! My guess is it was a former banned member coming back to try to pick up old fights - hence the seeking out of a thread over a year old.

Liz


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