# Pregnant cat nightmare



## Kateeeeeeecat (Nov 21, 2013)

So, I took a cat in that was under threat of being left behind whilst a family moved (I had a kitten from the same litter already so I knew the mother and father, I thought i was a hero) 

The cat had not been spayed (I was unaware of this) and has had 4 litters now under my care. After every birth, I book her in with the vets for as soon as they are willing, they normally make me wait atleast 3 weeks after birth before they will see her and they refuse to spay her for so many weeks and then she becomes pregnant again and it goes round in circles! 

I have tried to keep her indoors and away from the daddy cat (he has been the father for all the litters) but no matter how careful I am, she will wait by the door and run out when I arrive home and not return for days, she manages to escape everytime and it's very hard with a younger sister who is not exactly helpful and leaves doors open!  

Thankfully, I've done my research and took advice from the vets on how to look after the kittens and she has been checked over every pregnancy and all the kittens have gone to wonderful homes, (the kittens get visited, and I also go to the home to check it's a safe home) but I need some help because no vet has been willing to spay her and it's becoming difficult. 

Does anybody have any vets they would recommend? Or any ideas on how to keep her inside? I've tried everything and it's very hard


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

What area are you in.

Vets dont like, no actually, my vet doesnt like to spay queens until kittens are 8 weeks old and only if kittens havent been feeding for 2 weeks so the milk has dried up.

The only way is to keep her indoors, confine her in season to a room until she has finished then take to the vet.


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## Kateeeeeeecat (Nov 21, 2013)

Nottingham, I've tried vets for pets and the vets within pets at home. 

She gets pregnant whilst the kittens are still feeding so I've been with kittens constantly for a while, I have been suggest one vets that will terminate unborn kittens but I don't feel okay with that, the health warnings I was given were far too great to risk


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

The health risks of her having litter after litter are far greater than a spay/abort.

It's easy not to let a cat out, keep her shut in one room if you're finding it hard. You can also trap and neuter the male.


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## Kateeeeeeecat (Nov 21, 2013)

I desperately want her spayed, finding the vets is where I'm having trouble! 

I've tried to find where the naughty tom lives to speak to his owner and I can't locate them, I'll try lock her I'm one room and hope she doesn't rip the carpets up, it'd be worth it to have her done and healthy


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## izzyc (Dec 18, 2011)

Keep her shut in. And if she escapes and gets pregnant again, book her in for an emergency spay. It's much safer for her than having another litter. And neuter/spay the kittens before they leave you too. 

It sounds like she's having these litters very close together which is not good for her either.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I suggest you have a look at the CPL website which will give a list of early neutering vets in Nottinghamshire - just put in your postcode. You may find one there who will spay during early pregnancy. The health risks of continuing to have litter after litter are far greater


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Even if the tom you believe is the father is neutered it is quite likely there are other entire males around so keeping her in is vital.

Moral of the story - assume every rescued female cat needs spaying unless you have clear proof she has been done. A shave on her flank for example. It's not unknown for people to lie about this to get a cat rehomed.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I really don't understand this, book her into another vet, my vets will neuter queens whether pregnant or not, whether in call or not whether feeding kittens or not... They are fantastic and know about about neutering! 

she must have zero condition, Im surprised she is still producing milk, and as for the dad, he could be any number of males, shut her in a crate if she calls, put her in your bedroom, I don't get how she can escape? 

Go to another vet? I cant see a problem? Are you keeping all the kittens until 13weeks of age and neutering them before they leave you? As that's going to be a hell of a lot of kittens going to add to the breeding problem if their new owners do the same thing as you are doing 

So you want her neutered when the kittens are 3weeks old? So she is getting pregnant when still feeding her other kittens? Why can she be neutered the day after she comes home from roaming? Why keep letting her have them?  You have only tried 2 vets??


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## muffin789 (Jan 28, 2013)

Oh dear. I think I'm going to back quietly away and say nothing lest I say too much


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

Hi,

I run Lina's Cat Rescue which covers Nottingham, if you would like I can help with the neutering side of things. Our vets are fantastic and will neuter her - if you send an e-mail to [email protected] we can arrange it all.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

That's a very kind offer ,no one could/should refuse,poor cat must be exhausted, and ,not in a good condition, I hope you take this offer up


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sherylina said:


> Hi,
> 
> I run Lina's Cat Rescue which covers Nottingham, if you would like I can help with the neutering side of things. Our vets are fantastic and will neuter her - if you send an e-mail to [email protected] we can arrange it all.


amazing offer  I cant see anyone turning that down! 

I cant see any vet saying no to neutering her really!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Do vets still prescribe Ovarid or Perletex, to prevent queens from calling? There may even be a more modern equivalent - always some risks attached, but might be an idea as a one-off, providing the kittens are no longer nursing and you can keep the girl in.

Keeping her indoors really is the only way to be sure though; this is how most cat breeders deal with the issue, even those who don't have an outside run or cattery set-up. However, accidents still happen even in the best run households.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

vets can spay while pregnant too,


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

My vet will offer some kind of contraceptive, as she did the l;ast time I went ,as one of mine is always calling. very regularly, and I mean Very regularly, cycles in and out every other week, but as I am considering spaying her I have turned it down for now


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I really hope the OP has taken up Lina's Cat Rescue offer.
Seriously, take responsibility and get this poor cat spayed now


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sherylina said:


> Hi,
> 
> I run Lina's Cat Rescue which covers Nottingham, if you would like I can help with the neutering side of things. Our vets are fantastic and will neuter her - if you send an e-mail to [email protected] we can arrange it all.


That's a great offer, hope the OP takes you up.


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## GlitterPup (Nov 17, 2013)

-Massive facepalm-


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

I will not judge or ask questions, I just want to help. Something needs to be done which you clearly know hun, I will be happy to come round or ring you or you can just e-mail and I will answer any questions you may have.

We may also be able to help with transport if that is something that is concerning you x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sherylina said:


> I will not judge or ask questions, I just want to help. Something needs to be done which you clearly know hun, I will be happy to come round or ring you or you can just e-mail and I will answer any questions you may have.
> 
> We may also be able to help with transport if that is something that is concerning you x


great offer would be great if you can stay here,there is so many who join here to get what you are offering.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> great offer would be great if you can stay here,there is so many who join here to get what you are offering.


We don't advertise free neutering to the public in general as we are fairly small and just don't have the funding to do it as a regular thing but will always help when i can and especially in dire situations like this i would like to think any charity would offer the same if they saw it.


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## Kateeeeeeecat (Nov 21, 2013)

Thankyou for that offer! I will defiantly email for sure! Every vets I have tried as turned me down and said they won't do it! I'm not a bad owner for those who have assumed I'm happy with this situation, I don't want to have cute kittens running around my house constantly! I let them go at 9 weeks after being checked by a vet. Remember, the mother cat was a cat I took in so I've not been a irresponsible owner. 

I have tried everything to get her locked in one room but I think I may have already said that I has a little sister who is being very unhelpful(too young to understand). Also, if you haven't been in my home, you understand it's not as easy as it seems. 

The charity offer is so amazing, and it's the first one I've had! I'm literally in desperate need to get her done, it's more annoying that I'm basically being told I'm a bad owner. She wasn't my cat in the first place! Only trying to give her a better life now she lives with me


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

How small is the little sister? Small enough you can put a lock at the top of the door out of reach?


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Kateeeeeeecat said:


> Thankyou for that offer! I will defiantly email for sure! Every vets I have tried as turned me down and said they won't do it! I'm not a bad owner for those who have assumed I'm happy with this situation, I don't want to have cute kittens running around my house constantly! I let them go at 9 weeks after being checked by a vet. Remember, the mother cat was a cat I took in so I've not been a irresponsible owner.
> 
> I have tried everything to get her locked in one room but I think I may have already said that I has a little sister who is being very unhelpful(too young to understand). Also, if you haven't been in my home, you understand it's not as easy as it seems.
> 
> The charity offer is so amazing, and it's the first one I've had! I'm literally in desperate need to get her done, it's more annoying that I'm basically being told I'm a bad owner.* She wasn't my cat in the first place*! Only trying to give her a better life now she lives with me


i understand... but she's your cat now- so your responsibility.
go on to facebook and buy/borrow a dog crate (or a rescue may have one they could loan you). put it in your bedroom and ban your sister from your room. then let her wean her last litter and get her spayed. i can't see how that couldn't work. no worrying about doors being left open as you can put a padlock on the crate and only you have a key.
she Will get ill if she isn't spayed asap- i know you're trying to do the right thing, but humanizing her in regards to a spay-abort isn't for her benefit, it's yours and yours alone. 
do you know what age she is and how many litters she's now had to raise in total? poor girl must be completely exhausted.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Kateeeeeeecat said:


> Thankyou for that offer! I will defiantly email for sure! Every vets I have tried as turned me down and said they won't do it! I'm not a bad owner for those who have assumed I'm happy with this situation, I don't want to have cute kittens running around my house constantly! I let them go at 9 weeks after being checked by a vet. Remember, the mother cat was a cat I took in so I've not been a irresponsible owner.
> 
> I have tried everything to get her locked in one room but I think I may have already said that I has a little sister who is being very unhelpful(too young to understand). Also, if you haven't been in my home, you understand it's not as easy as it seems.
> 
> The charity offer is so amazing, and it's the first one I've had! I'm literally in desperate need to get her done, it's more annoying that I'm basically being told I'm a bad owner. She wasn't my cat in the first place! Only trying to give her a better life now she lives with me


You only called 2 vets? And I still don't have a reason why they wont neuter? Tell your sister don't open the door and out a lock on it? If she escapes from the room, then she is in the house anyway...? Not outside so it isn't actually hard at all.

Kittens should not leave until 12-13weeks of age, and do they go with neutering contracts?

You have been given a AMAZING offer by a lovely person on here I hope you have already bitten off their hand and called them and booked her in!


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Have you booked her in to be spayed with the very kind lady who offered?


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

I think you've done a nice thing taking this cat in and gettting the kittens a full health check before they're rehomed is better than most people (I think) who take strays in will do.

It's hard sometimes talking to the vets. I don't like aborting kittens either. I know there's too many stray and ferrel kittens in this country but it's just something that I'm not comfortable with doing myelf. 

I hope you manage to get her speyed when she's finished with this litter. Are you keeping this cat as your own? I've took a stray in last year and am thinking of keeping her as she's not a lot of hassle to me but will try and rehome her again soon. She got brought back once already.

Oh and it IS hard keeping them locked in an house when they're in call. They're horney as hell, they'll do anything to get out and mate.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

gentoo1980 said:


> Oh and it IS hard keeping them locked in an house when they're in call. They're horney as hell, they'll do anything to get out and mate.


I second this, have had a female in heat jump out of an upstairs window before to mate!! :scared:


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> I second this, have had a female in heat jump out of an upstairs window before to mate!! :scared:


Bet that wasn't in November or December! But it illustrates the point - she needs confining in a room with a lock where little fingers can't accidentally let the cat out until she has been spayed, and the sooner that happens the better.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

gentoo1980 said:


> I think you've done a nice thing taking this cat in and gettting the kittens a full health check before they're rehomed is better than most people (I think) who take strays in will do.
> 
> It's hard sometimes talking to the vets. I don't like aborting kittens either. I know there's too many stray and ferrel kittens in this country but it's just something that I'm not comfortable with doing myelf.
> 
> ...





Sparkle22 said:


> I second this, have had a female in heat jump out of an upstairs window before to mate!! :scared:


I have calling un-neutered girls, never once had one escape 

They shouldn't be going outside or know that it exists until the are neutered anyway. If they do know that the outside exists, why aren't they neutered? Can be neutered from 8-10weeks of age in the UK, so no excuses really, if you are going to open a door, shut them in another room, in a crate, in a crate in a room!!

There is a answer to everything that has been said, windows shut (which is dangerous even if they aren't in call! Doors shut, put netting up so they cant get out and you can have windows/doors open. 
As for the 'abortion' talk its null and void really, if a girl gets out a mates, no kittens exists when she comes home days later, the sperm probably wont have even reached the egg, its kinda like saying that the morning after pill is a abortion, when we know that it isn't  Then book her in DO NOT wait for another 3weeks + to 'see' if she is!

I hope you have booked her in with the lovely offer of the neutering! On her 5the litter back to back, Im really shocked she is still able to feed them  Oh also I did ask do the kittens go with neutering contracts to be neutered by 6 months of age? Otherwise that is more kittens that will be let out to be neutered (Hopefully the owners are wise though!)


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> I second this, have had a female in heat jump out of an upstairs window before to mate!! :scared:


I had a male tomcat climb _in_ through an upstairs window to get to one of mine!!! :scared: We reckoned he must have shinned up the drainpipe!


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> I have calling un-neutered girls, never once had one escape
> 
> They shouldn't be going outside or know that it exists until the are neutered anyway. If they do know that the outside exists, why aren't they neutered? Can be neutered from 8-10weeks of age in the UK, so no excuses really, if you are going to open a door, shut them in another room, in a crate, in a crate in a room!!
> 
> ...


This surprises me as your signature suggests you breed Siamese?
My dad used to be a Siamese breeder and my girl that jumped out the window was half oriental (never intended to be bred from). I know how lively and what excellent escape artists the breed can be!

You say there's no excuses but a) when our cat escaped no vet in their right mind would neuter a kitten, early neutering seems to be a relatively recent thing and b) although it's acceptable now and has many supporters early neutering has just as many opponents who think the cat should be fully developed first.

Regarding the window, she had daily access outdoors, we never dreamed she would jump out a window! 
When she was in heat we didn't even realise the window was open, it was in my brothers room so I assume he opened it then went off and forgot. 
She was asleep on my dad's bed, we didn't realise what she had done until my mum saw our neighbours tom having his wicked way with her in the back garden! 

Our vet couldn't fit her in for a spay straightaway meaning when she was spayed the kittens would be developing. We didn't feel comfortable with this so she had her kittens and was then done.

I think neutering contracts are a great idea but these kittens are moggies? You can't really send them off with neutering contracts as moggies IMO, indeed, so many purebreds sold with contracts and registered non active end up getting bred from  best you can do is early neuter if you want to be sure.


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## Kateeeeeeecat (Nov 21, 2013)

I have rang about 15/20 different vets in my are, I named two of the larger well known companies. Also, I let the kittens go at 9 weeks plus, (they are okay to leave at 8 weeks as they are off mums milk) they are seen by the vets for health checks and fleaed ect and given the all clear to go by them. I do not know how many litters she's had in total, like I said, I got her when she was fully home and took her in being told she had been spayed. Also, it's rather difficult to stop a young child from getting their grubby little fingers in a door handle because she hears the cat meowing and she doesn't understand that she can't be allowed out. Thankyou to everyone who has explained how hard it can be to keep them in, I don't want her out at all. 

I've never waited to 'see' if she's pregnant, the vets have said they won't see me in time to get her done! I've phoned constantly and still nothing, it isn't like I've just sat back and let her. Since the day I found out she was pregnant I've tried.

Thankyou to everyone who has helped explained how crafty cats can be! They're little escape artists sometimes. 

I have emailed the charity and I'm waiting a reply (I don't expect today as it's Sunday). Paying, time, travel and everything else has never been an issue! It's finding a vets who willing to help! I am so grateful for this!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

but of you LOCK her in how can 'grubby little fingers' open a padlock without the key?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> This surprises me as your signature suggests you breed Siamese?
> My dad used to be a Siamese breeder and my girl that jumped out the window was half oriental (never intended to be bred from). I know how lively and what excellent escape artists the breed can be!
> 
> You say there's no excuses but a) *when our cat escaped no vet in their right mind would neuter a kitten*, early neutering seems to be a relatively recent thing and b) although it's acceptable now and has many supporters early neutering has just as many opponents who think the cat should be fully developed first.
> ...


So she wasn't neutered yet she had daily access to the outside? 
A vet would not neuter a 'kitten' but would let a 'kitten' go through a birth would could kill her and she may not be able to look after them, and may need a C-section, rather than a simple neuter?  Should have gone to another vet!! Sounds like a awful vet with no knowledge!

Actually EN isn't a new thing its been going on for many manys years years, extremely common abroad and a lot more common here, some breeders I know have been EN for over 10 years in this country, and it has ZERO to do with developing, sadly you have been miss informed, take a look at the threads about EN.

And there wasn't any kittens to abort, you could have neutered her the day she got home, go to a different vet??  They wouldn't be developing at all, this is a humans way of thinking, she would have had no idea, none at all.
I don't know why that is funny either. A unknown boy mating your kitten in the back garden? 

And WHY cant you send off 'moggies' with neutering contracts?? Are they not good enough???  In fact why cant the kittens be early neutered before leaving? 

I do not breed Siamese.



Kateeeeeeecat said:


> I have rang about 15/20 different vets in my are, I named two of the larger well known companies. Also, I let the kittens go at 9 weeks plus, (they are okay to leave at 8 weeks as they are off mums milk) they are seen by the vets for health checks and fleaed ect and given the all clear to go by them.
> 
> *I do not know how many litters she's had in total,* like I said, I got her when she was fully home and took her in being told she had been spayed. Also, it's rather difficult to stop a young child from getting *their grubby little fingers in a door handle *because she hears the cat meowing and she doesn't understand that she can't be allowed out. Thankyou to everyone who has explained how hard it can be to keep them in, I don't want her out at all.
> 
> ...


No they are not ok to leave mum at 8weeks of age. Kittens start to learn development skills, socialization skills and bite inhibition and manors between 8-12weeks of age. They miss out on ALOT. Hence why everyone keeps saying 12-13weeks of age is best for the kitten. NOT the human as it becomes more expensive for them to keep them. Put a lock on the door? On the top? And mum inside a crate inside?

They also still suckle from mum until the day they leave, however as your mum is constantly pregnant I doubt she lets them feed until she should  
Well 5 litters with you you said? And who knows how many before hand? 

I hope they get her sorted


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Taylorbaby said:


> I have calling un-neutered girls, never once had one )


None here either, not even close. Really not difficult to keep them in


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I have a tonkinese who escaped through a very small top window, left open by mistake, she was a real escape artist, I had a hatch into the kitchen from the living room, tied up with strong string to keep her in, had no spare bedrooms at the time ,but she chewed through the string, she still couldn't get outside though

I do agree with the other poster though, you cant send moggies out with kitten contracts, not because they are not good enough, but it would cost a fortune, and I would imagine most people couldn't afford it, and could not recoup the cost from selling, not particularly meaning this case though
I hope the cat will be spayed after the kind offer from the rescue lady


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> This surprises me as your signature suggests you breed Siamese?
> My dad used to be a Siamese breeder and my girl that jumped out the window was half oriental (never intended to be bred from). I know how lively and what excellent escape artists the breed can be!
> 
> You say there's no excuses but a) when our cat escaped no vet in their right mind would neuter a kitten, early neutering seems to be a relatively recent thing and b) although it's acceptable now and has many supporters early neutering has just as many opponents who think the cat should be fully developed first.
> ...


Can I ask why your surprised that it's easy to keep Siamese in call females in doors? Manage it not problem at all? There are a few Siamese and Oriental breeders on here who manage do it to ? I am aware of what all cats are like in call and managed to never have my female escape while in call before she was spayed?

OP please take up the offer as soon as you can this is really really unfair on your cat!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

jaycee05 said:


> I have a tonkinese who escaped through a very small top window, left open by mistake, she was a real escape artist, I had a hatch into the kitchen from the living room, tied up with strong string to keep her in, had no spare bedrooms at the time ,but she chewed through the string, she still couldn't get outside though
> 
> I do agree with the other poster though, you cant send moggies out with kitten contracts, not because they are not good enough, but it would cost a fortune, and I would imagine most people couldn't afford it, and could not recoup the cost from selling, not particularly meaning this case though
> I hope the cat will be spayed after the kind offer from the rescue lady


I don't really understand the last bit, why would it cost a fortune? Just write up a contract for neutering on the computer and print it put in dates and both sign it, that is a contract, also tell the people PETS ONLY MUST BE NEUTERED, proper breeders do no recoup loss and we neuter and vac our kittens and keep them for a extra 5weeks!!

So I don't see why they cant, in fact I believe that people on here that have had litters by accident HAVE gone with neutering contracts, or go to the rspca / pdsa / rescue and tell them that you want the kittens neutered it was a accident litter do you qualify for any help and do the kittens? I also believe people on here give out neutering vouchers as well.

Better yet, neuter your cat!


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> *
> They shouldn't be going outside or know that it exists until the are neutered anyway. * If they do know that the outside exists, why aren't they neutered? Can be neutered from 8-10weeks of age in the UK, so no excuses really, if you are going to open a door, shut them in another room, in a crate, in a crate in a room!!
> *
> 
> ...


Just plain common sense it seems to me.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

" They also still suckle from mum until the day they leave, however as your mum is constantly pregnant I doubt she lets them feed until she should  
Well 5 litters with you you said? And who knows how many before hand?" 

I hope they get her sorted 



And if they do sort this poor girl , I hope she is strong enough to get through the procedure ..... People do not realise what an effect multiple births have on cats ( and I don't mean that from an ethical breeders pov) ... I too hope she gets some help ..... and peace


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> I have a tonkinese who escaped through a very small top window, left open by mistake, she was a real escape artist, I had a hatch into the kitchen from the living room, tied up with strong string to keep her in, had no spare bedrooms at the time ,but she chewed through the string, she still couldn't get outside though
> 
> I do agree with the other poster though, you cant send moggies out with kitten contracts, not because they are not good enough, but it would cost a fortune, and I would imagine most people couldn't afford it, and could not recoup the cost from selling, not particularly meaning this case though
> I hope the cat will be spayed after the kind offer from the rescue lady


What cost is there to contracts?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I've been breeding for 7 years now and never once has a calling girl escaped. I employ a system of checking where the cat is - making sure the kids fully understand about open doors (and my youngest was 7 when I started breeding) being very careful. Windows never opened without being on a latch where the cats can't get through the gaps. Using doors and rooms as an air lock system - it's not rocket science. 

And if a cat does escape and isn't meant to be bred from then spay - the embryos don't even implant for 3 weeks so you aren't killing anything as it isn't alive yet.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Right just cause kittens dont feed from mum after 8 week doesnt mean they are weaned they learn many more vital skill up untill the 12 weekmark.

Also i do understand its tricky to keep cats in when you have little ones iv got 5 kids.You just have to be on the ball.

Regarding the spaying,15 vets wouldnt spay after the kittens were weaned? Even so the cat could have been spayed whilst pregnant,only earlier this year i took a neighbours cat to be spayed while pregnant. 

Taylorbaby doesnt breed meezers either.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

How old are you if your sister is too young to understand about not letting the cat out and has to reach her 'grubby little fingers' to the door handle? My kids understood that kind of thing and acted on it from around 5 years old.

My brother is autistic when he was little and a devil with doors we put tiny bolts at the very top of the door frame to stop him going places he shouldn't - that would be an easy thing to do and would save this poor cat from yet another back to back litter.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

tincan said:


> " They also still suckle from mum until the day they leave, however as your mum is constantly pregnant I doubt she lets them feed until she should
> Well 5 litters with you you said? And who knows how many before hand?"
> 
> I hope they get her sorted
> ...


5 litters oh gosh i missed that,that cat needs a spay asap pregnant or not she must be wore out,my guess is back to back litters aswel probably in less than a 2 year period.

I know what id do..and thats whats best for mum cat.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

:idea: Why don't homes have screens over the doors and windows to secure objects such as cats and small children when the windows and doors are open?


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## Kateeeeeeecat (Nov 21, 2013)

Not okay to leave at 8 weeks plus? So why have I been told they are okay to leave at 8, and also, why would the lovely ladies who have offered to help me let their kittens go at 9 weeks for adoption? They've only ever been let go after a vet has seen then. I was also advised to get them onto wet/dry foods at 6 weeks. 

Locks on doors is a great idea, trouble is due to my home and family circumstances ;which I don't need to leave all over here they aren't an option, as much as I'd love too. I'm going to try a dog crate that was suggested on here until I hear back from the charity

Just to clear something up aswell, I've read about the contracts and I have sent all my cats away with the knowledge that they are being done, (seen appointment cards and spoke with the vets myself ect) I've even booked a few appointments on behalf of the new owner. I would never ever want someone to be in this horrible trouble I'm in.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> :idea: Why don't homes have screens over the doors and windows to secure objects such as cats and small children when the windows and doors are open?


Because we don't in the UK.....


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

No, it's not oaky to leave at 8 weeks - yes, it is the norm especially amongst moggy breeders and back yard breeders, but ONLY because it is in the best interests of the humans not the kittens. And it doesn't make it right. Vets do about 1 week of training on cats in a 7 year training and it's not enough . 8 weeks is too young. I have a girl here who at 21 weeks is still having a daily feed from mum and she STILL copies her and is STILL learning social and physical skills from her. That's why it's important they stay with mum until around 12- 13 weeks. 

Rescues tend to let kittens go earlier that that as they are desperate for the space - so the next poor mum can come in and give birth. If they had the space and the money to feed them (this is often a time the kittens really start to eat masses as they have a growth spurt around then) they would keep them longer.

And weaning starts at 3 - 4 weeks not 6. And never wean kittens onto dry food - dry food is incredibly bad for cats and is the reason kidney disease is hugely rising at the moment. More and more vets are beginning to realise that dry is bad.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Kateeeeeeecat said:


> Not okay to leave at 8 weeks plus? So why have I been told they are okay to leave at 8, and also, why would the lovely ladies who have offered to help me let their kittens go at 9 weeks for adoption? They've only ever been let go after a vet has seen then. I was also advised to get them onto wet/dry foods at 6 weeks.
> 
> Locks on doors is a great idea, trouble is due to my home and family circumstances ;which I don't need to leave all over here they aren't an option, as much as I'd love too. I'm going to try a dog crate that was suggested on here until I hear back from the charity
> 
> Just to clear something up aswell, I've read about the contracts and I have sent all my cats away with the knowledge that they are being done, (seen appointment cards and spoke with the vets myself ect) I've even booked a few appointments on behalf of the new owner. I would never ever want someone to be in this horrible trouble I'm in.


You need to tell your family how serious it is not to let her out, these litters could kill her, if not from having so many in such a short time then by giving her a illness from the matings  She may get very distressed being shut in a dog crate if she is not used to it.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Because we don't in the UK.....


I do! Did them myself, £3 on each window and £19 for the patio door, all done myself off of ebay! I tell all my kitten owners, some of them diy, or have a professional come in, also have had a lot enclose their garden, I think loads of people do it on here to, that's where I got the idea from years ago! 

edit: they keep flies and bugs out to! So really worth it!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

If you keep them to 12-13 weeks then they should have both sets of vaccinations before leaving.

However I understand this is not always practical for many reasons, so a compromise MIGHT be *at least* 10 weeks _preferably_ 12, so the new owners can have them vaccinated straight away, providing they are strong and healthy.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Kateeeeeeecat said:


> _Not okay to leave at 8 weeks plus?_ So why have I been told they are okay to leave at 8, and also, why would the lovely ladies who have offered to help me let their kittens go at 9 weeks for adoption? They've only ever been let go after a vet has seen then. I was also advised to get them onto wet/dry foods at 6 weeks.
> 
> Locks on doors is a great idea, trouble is due to my home and family circumstances ;which I don't need to leave all over here they aren't an option, as much as I'd love too. I'm going to try a dog crate that was suggested on here until I hear back from the charity
> 
> Just to clear something up aswell, I've read about the contracts and I have sent all my cats away with the knowledge that they are being done, (seen appointment cards and spoke with the vets myself ect) I've even booked a few appointments on behalf of the new owner. I would never ever want someone to be in this horrible trouble I'm in.


i was only Just saying to someone else there... my little kitten (now 13 weeks)was handed in to a vets after her mother abandoned her at 3-4 weeks (though thankfully she bonded to one of my dogs as a surrogate) but the change in her size, confidence, really her whole personality is really astounding- she has become a toddler now. i just don't understand why someone would separate a baby from it's mother before it's 100% ready (i more so understand rescues that are pushed to the limit do) unless they absolutely have to.



MerlinsMum said:


> Because we don't in the UK.....


i just got an airlock 'porch' on my front door instead


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> I do! Did them myself, £3 on each window and £19 for the patio door, all done myself off of ebay! I tell all my kitten owners, some of them diy, or have a professional come in, also have had a lot enclose their garden, I think loads of people do it on here to, that's where I got the idea from years ago!


ill have to get a pic of my mums mesh screen over her window,the cats love to look out of the window and now they can and cant get out,she lives in an apartment so has no garden,plus they are peds so she wouldnt let them roam.Didnt cost owt to make we hd a roll of mesh from doing cattery then built a wood frame round it from spare bits af 1x 1.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> i was only Just saying to someone else there... my little kitten (now 11 weeks)was handed in to a vets after her mother abandoned her at 3-4 weeks (though thankfully she bonded to one of my dogs as a surrogate) but the change in her size, confidence, really her whole personality is really astounding- she has become a toddler now.


There's just such a HUGE difference in kittens between 8 weeks and 10-12 weeks. It's hard to explain unless you've kept them for that long yourself, and seen the difference (or even longer, as mine left at 12-14 weeks after vaccinations were done).


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> Because we don't in the UK.....


This is something I couldn't imagine living without. How do you keep bugs and strange people from poking in? Not to mention keeping pets and other things inside.  Don't children try to climb out?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Toby Tyler said:


> This is something I couldn't imagine living without. How do you keep bugs and strange people from poking in? Not to mention keeping pets and other things inside.  Don't children try to climb out?


lol..yes they do TT,other month my 3 year old escaped while i was cleaning up through window little bugger,got to keep them locked now.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

pmsl i cant even stop the kiddies escaping never mind cats :001_tongue:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> This is something I couldn't imagine living without. How do you keep bugs and strange people from poking in? Not to mention keeping pets and other things inside.  Don't children try to climb out?


My windows have safety locks so only open so far, have mesh curtains for door to keep bugs out, and Siamese and a Rottweiler to keep strange people out lol


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Meezey said:


> My windows have safety locks so only open so far, have mesh curtains for door to keep bugs out, and Siamese and a Rottweiler to keep strange people out lol


haha great answers :thumbup:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> This is something I couldn't imagine living without. How do you keep bugs and strange people from poking in? Not to mention keeping pets and other things inside.  Don't children try to climb out?


You clearly have a lot more bugs and strange people than we do 

And judging by the photos I've seen online - not to mention the reports by my Stateside friends - a thin mesh screen is no deterrent to anything large, hungry, powerful and wanting access. I guess that includes children.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

Kate has been in touch, please no more negative comments as she is doing the right thing now and arguing over past choices will not solve anything x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sherylina said:


> Kate has been in touch, please no more negative comments as she is doing the right thing now and arguing over past choices will not solve anything x


Great news


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> You clearly have a lot more bugs and strange people than we do
> 
> And judging by the photos I've seen online - not to mention the reports by my Stateside friends - a thin mesh screen is no deterrent to anything large, hungry, powerful and wanting access. I guess that includes children.


Fair enough :scared:

But screens do offer some protection and definitely keep my cats in, while letting them enjoy the outdoors.

I had a bear try to break through my screen door. It did slow him down enough for me to notice and scare him off. :yikes:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> Fair enough :scared:


No worries  I've spent enough time overseas in biting insect infested areas, which includes tropical countries, and the good old USA 

I tend to notice, as they hone in on my fresh pink juicy European skin in droves. I remember going out to an outside loo in Thailand, with torch (flashlight) and failing to spot the mosquito lurking within - the size of a small helicopter - that leapt up joyfully from the toilet basin and gave me a bite which prevented me from sitting comfortably for several days.

The ones in the Southern USA States were less aggressive but achieved a lot more collateral damage.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> But screens do offer some protection and definitely keep my cats in, while letting them enjoy the outdoors.
> 
> I had a bear try to break through my screen door. It did slow him down enough for me to notice and scare him off. :yikes:


Yep screens are standard here too, windows and doors. My cats love sitting by the open windows. I get the occasional mosquito, fly or moth inside, shudder to think what it would be like with no screens.

No bears here though


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> So she wasn't neutered yet she had daily access to the outside?
> A vet would not neuter a 'kitten' but would let a 'kitten' go through a birth would could kill her and she may not be able to look after them, and may need a C-section, rather than a simple neuter?  Should have gone to another vet!! Sounds like a awful vet with no knowledge!
> 
> Actually EN isn't a new thing its been going on for many manys years years, extremely common abroad and a lot more common here, some breeders I know have been EN for over 10 years in this country, and it has ZERO to do with developing, sadly you have been miss informed, take a look at the threads about EN.
> ...


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Can I ask why your surprised that it's easy to keep Siamese in call females in doors? Manage it not problem at all? There are a few Siamese and Oriental breeders on here who manage do it to ? I am aware of what all cats are like in call and managed to never have my female escape while in call before she was spayed?
> 
> OP please take up the offer as soon as you can this is really really unfair on your cat!


Manage it obviously, but I don't think its as easy as some posters have suggested.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> but of you LOCK her in how can 'grubby little fingers' open a padlock without the key?


It doesn't need a padlock, just a small catch high enough up that little fingers can't reach.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> Manage it obviously, but I don't think its as easy as some posters have suggested.


but where there is a will theres a way!?
sorry, but i just can't understand the general attitude regarding females in call escaping- if one of my dogs were to escape while in heat i'd be running straight in front of cars n everything in a panic if i thought it would help get them back- then straight in for a spay off mismate.
same as i don't understand how a vet wouldn't have an emergency surgery spot available for 3 weeks. i could phone my vet and tell them i want Grace neutered and they'd have her done by the weekend- and thats a non-emergency!

if you know your breed is difficult in call then you invest in a crate or similar for her own saftely; after all, if they are such prolific escapees it would come up on any info site during your info search on the breed.

(and not aimed at kateeeecat)


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> but where there is a will theres a way!?
> sorry, but i just can't understand the general attitude regarding females in call escaping- if one of my dogs were to escape while in heat i'd be running straight in front of cars n everything in a panic if i thought it would help get them back- then straight in for a spay off mismate.
> same as i don't understand how a vet wouldn't have an emergency surgery spot available for 3 weeks. i could phone my vet and tell them i want Grace neutered and they'd have her done by the weekend- and thats a non-emergency!
> 
> ...


I am not saying you CANT keep them in I am just saying people should be a teeny bit more understanding of genuine escapes/accidents as it often isn't as easy To keep them in as people think or claim. 
If they are determined enough they can often escape through the most unlikely ways.

If they wouldn't do it they wouldn't do it :confused1:
They did tell us 2 or 3 weeks.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> <snip>
> They did tell us 2 or 3 weeks.


I know this refering to some time ago, but personally I would move my business from a vet that couldn't fit a spay in for that amount of time. Also some people seem to think they can't ring any vet they like, so can ring round the vets in their area to find one with a better reply.

The vet I used to use wouldn't early neuter the oriental kittens I bred. I found a vet that would via the CP website, she turned out to be lovely and now has most of my business - routine stuff and minor illnesses. However I'll keep using the original one for more complicated things and out of hours emergencies as they are better equipped.


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## imogenmc3 (Nov 25, 2013)

I don't understand why people are saying sometimes its hard to keep them from escaping.

real simple, put cat or cats in bedroom or another secure room and lock on the door before you open any doors or windows. do it every single time. easy peasy. If you have kids make sure your doors to the outdoors are always locked and the keys are out of reach, same with windows, lock them and keep keys safely stored out of reach. If you want windows open in hot weather have secure screens fitted.

None of its difficult.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> Yeah the website says ragdolls, sorry, the signature shows *lovely deep blue almond eyes and colourpoint marking so I assumed they were Siamese. *


Not to take this any more off topic but wasn't it you that said you can tell certain breeds (Siamese amongst them) by looking at them?

So you see, just because a cat is colorpoint and has blue almond shaped eyes does not make it a Siamese.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> Not to take this any more off topic but wasn't it you that said you can tell certain breeds (Siamese amongst them) by looking at them?
> 
> So you see, just because a cat is colorpoint and has blue almond shaped eyes does not make it a Siamese.


I have no comeback lol


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> On that subject though, ragdolls are known for being very placid anyway. Siamese and orientals are most definately not!
> Sometimes it IS difficult to stop them escaping.


I breed Ocicats, they are more active than Siamese/Orientals and never had anyone try to escape, even in the most hysterical of calls.

TB also used to breed Bengals, and again, no escapes.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> On that subject though, ragdolls are known for being very placid anyway. Siamese and orientals are most definately not!
> Sometimes it IS difficult to stop them escaping


Yes they are more active than some other breeds but it isn't difficult to stop them escaping if you truly don't want them to get out. Blaming a breed characteristic for human failing is a ridiculous excuse.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> Manage it obviously, but I don't think its as easy as some posters have suggested.


It is easy? Why would you think it wasn't? My young girl never escaped? If it's so hard to do why do so many breeders manage multiple queens without them escaping?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Sparkle22 View Post
> Manage it obviously, but I don't think its as easy as some posters have suggested.


I think I'm going to explode! Why the bl**dy h*ll should someone only do it if it's easy. If you *choose* to keep an unspayed girl it's your responsibility to do the right thing easy or not. There's an easy option - if you can't cope cope with a breeding queen then neuter!


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> I second this, have had a female in heat jump out of an upstairs window before to mate!! :scared:


Yes, it is difficult to keep them in, particularly if not all the family members are helpful. Still if you are determined you can do it. Our girl was going crazy during the hottest weeks this summer and she did not have a chance of escaping with the kitchen door looking out into the garden open all day. We constructed a light door frame and attached chicken wire to it. This additional frame was attached outside to the main door frame. And a little hook (high up) kept the door closed. This way the main door was open letting the fresh cool air in but no way a cat could get out. And the chicken wire was not very visible either so we did not feel like we were living in a cage or anything like that. Like with everything else - all it takes is determination and a little bit of thinking the problem through.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> but where there is a will theres a way!?
> sorry, but i just can't understand the general attitude regarding females in call escaping- if one of my dogs were to escape while in heat i'd be running straight in front of cars n everything in a panic if i thought it would help get them back- then straight in for a spay off mismate.
> same as i don't understand how a vet wouldn't have an emergency surgery spot available for 3 weeks. i could phone my vet and tell them i want Grace neutered and they'd have her done by the weekend- and thats a non-emergency!
> 
> ...


I agree with you in general but still - "A CAT IS NOT A DOG!" Cannot imagine a dog on heat jumping out of a bathroom window on the first floor. (Not that my cat ever had a chance!) Or maybe they do?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

havoc said:


> I think I'm going to explode! Why the bl**dy h*ll should someone only do it if it's easy. If you *choose* to keep an unspayed girl it's your responsibility to do the right thing easy or not. There's an easy option - if you can't cope cope with a breeding queen then neuter!


Are we reading the same posts 

Where on earth did I say someone should only do it if it's easy or that someone shouldn't neuter????

I do not advocate irresponsible breeding thank you very much, I come from a (responsible) cat breeding family, in that time, we have had 1 cat escape and get pregnant accidently.

I didn't choose to keep an un spayed cat, she got pregnant before we had a chance to have her done.

Given the option, we would have had her spayed that day, unfortunately, our vet could not do it. That isn't our fault. Just as it isn't the op's fault her vets wouldn't spay, she has been in touch with the rescue so I assume the cat will be done very soon.

I am not saying its a common occurrence , I am not saying it is right, I was just saying that cats in heat can be real escape artists and a challenge to keep indoors. 
Whether you like it or not, OCCASIONALLY despite best intentions a cat in heat will escape.

IMO, you should save your rage for the people deliberately breeding cats irresponsibly and the individuals who have no intention of getting their cats done because they can't be arsed or because they think its cruel.

There is a big BIG difference between these people and kind, responsible, loving pet owners with a genuine accidental litter that they take good care of.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

In a perfect world, no cat would escape, but families have problems and distractions and emergencies,also it depends on the house they live in, and what if any alterations can be made, 
Cant see why anyone is getting heated about this, it DOES sometimes happen, not as if anyone wants it to, or just being careless, no one is perfect,


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

spid said:


> never wean kittens onto dry food - dry food is incredibly bad for cats and is the reason kidney disease is hugely rising at the moment. More and more vets are beginning to realise that dry is bad.


Feeding kittens dry food only - isn't it the same as feeding human kids crisps all the time? Dry food is very convenient of course. Cats on dry food should at least drink a lot of fresh water - a pet water fountain always helped my cats drink more water and it keeps them off the kitchen sink too!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Kateeeeeeecat said:


> The cat had not been spayed (I was unaware of this) and has had 4 litters now under my care. After every birth, I book her in with the vets for as soon as they are willing, they normally make me wait atleast 3 weeks after birth before they will see her and they refuse to spay her for so many weeks and then she becomes pregnant again and it goes round in circles!
> 
> I have tried to keep her indoors and away from the daddy cat (he has been the father for all the litters) but no matter how careful I am, she will wait by the door and run out when I arrive home and not return for days(


I simply cannot believe that anyone is trotting out 'accidents happen' within a mile of this thread. FOUR accidental litters under the OP's care who apparently cannot engage brain after each and every accident to prevent a cat from running out of the door when it's opened. Please.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I simply cannot believe that anyone is trotting out 'accidents happen' within a mile of this thread. FOUR accidental litters under the OP's care who apparently cannot engage brain after each and every accident to prevent a cat from running out of the door when it's opened. Please.


Agree completely with this - and even if "accidents do happen" it is the owner that chooses not to have the cat spayed at that point. There are always choices, what we all tend to do is spend a lot of time trying to justify the choices we make. With early neutering readily available there shouldnt be any "whoops" litters among cats that are not intended for breeding. Simple as that.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> In a perfect world, no cat would escape, but families have problems and distractions and emergencies,also it depends on the house they live in, and what if any alterations can be made,
> Cant see why anyone is getting heated about this, it DOES sometimes happen, not as if anyone wants it to, or just being careless, no one is perfect,


Yes, it does happen (sadly) occasionally but FOUR TIMES???

It beggars belief....

Loopyloro
x


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> In a perfect world, no cat would escape, but families have problems and distractions and emergencies,also it depends on the house they live in, and what if any alterations can be made,
> Cant see why anyone is getting heated about this, it DOES sometimes happen, not as if anyone wants it to, or just being careless, no one is perfect,


Then the cats should be spayed asap if the person doesn't feel that can keep their cat safe ( lots of vets do early neutering now), or the cat should be spayed as soon as they come back home. Yes accidents do happen. You might not have a problem with a young cat being mated back to back, who could have serious illnesses from those matings, and each mating puts her and her kittens at risk, but hey no one is perfect............

4 times??

My comment was directed at the fact of why there was shock and disbelief that anyone could keep an in call Siamese inside?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> who could have serious illnesses from those matings


A point studiously avoided by those who wish to believe the only consequence of the odd accidental escape could be a litter of kittens.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> I breed Ocicats, they are more active than Siamese/Orientals and never had anyone try to escape, even in the most hysterical of calls.
> 
> TB also used to breed Bengals, and again, no escapes.


Oh yes haha, god the bengals, (also have Siamese in them  ) yes as a lot of you know they are mental 24-7 slender acrobats nosy into everything up a curtain pool before you can blink, then back down again in the washing machine and out again up the top of the stairs knocking over kiknaks before you can breath back out again... No escapees, and some of them were used to being outside with their previous owner, they knew it existed 

And my ragdolls are extremely vocal outgoing crazy sods, that are also into everything. Never met a boring one In my life  :001_wub:


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I agree 4 times too many, after the first time you would be doubly careful to make sure they didn't escape again, but I am saying it CAN happen, but no not 4 times, I made very sure it didn't happen again after mine escaped out of a very small bedroom window,before that i wouldnt have probably double checked everything, but i think 1 mistake should only be that just 1,but i do think certain breeds are more likely to get out because they are quicker, my tonk who escaped i still have,but although she 11 now and been spayed a long time ago, shes still like lightning , dashes everywhere,compared to my ragdolls, 
I have a Bengal too who is quite laid back


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> Yep screens are standard here too, windows and doors. My cats love sitting by the open windows. I get the occasional mosquito, fly or moth inside, *shudder to think what it would be like with no screens.
> *


Screens are a good thing :yesnod:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> 1 mistake should only be that just 1,but i do think certain breeds are more likely to get out because they are quicker


Certain breeds are certainly quicker and more determined but that isn't an excuse. If you aren't prepared to deal with the breed characteristics then why have that breed? I don't 'do' long haired cats but if I had one I'd groom it. I wouldn't bleat that it's coat was matted to hell because that breed needs more attention to the coat than short hairs and it therefore wasn't my responsibility to deal with it.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> ,but i do think certain breeds are more likely to get out because they are quicker


utter tosh  I am well aware of my breed and it's characteristics and traits, that's why I got them, it's never an excuse for them getting out. No matter what the breed or how fast they are, you can escape proof your house if you know your going to have a in call female in the house. Just buy getting a female whether you intend to breed or not, if you can't find a vet that early spays/neuters you know you will at some stage end up with an in call female, then as an owner YOU need to make sure your cat doesn't get out. I don't slip up because why would I want to risk my cat getting FIV or another painful uncomfortable even life threatening disease?


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Kotanushka said:


> I agree with you in general but still - "*A CAT IS NOT A DOG*!" Cannot imagine a dog on heat jumping out of a bathroom window on the first floor. (Not that my cat ever had a chance!) Or maybe they do?


flip really? are they like a different species or something! :aureola:
of course i know that- but what with Grace being my 1st cat i could hardly use a cat as an example. and yes, a bitch (especially a terrier) will try to get out any way possible- but you'll never hear of her getting pregnant because the fall would kill her.
(very resourceful- i had a yorkie get through a closed door, press her bum against the crate my male was in and get mated even though she was wearing a baby grow and pants, and he had a baby grow on! he was neutered as well thankfully!)

and quite honestly in my mind leaving 1st floor windows open is even more irresponsible than leaving a ground floor one open- at least she wouldn't have as high a risk of injury from the ground floor window...


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't think Persians, Ragdolls, BSH etc. move at a sloth like pace, they can be just as quick as any other breed if they want to be. They just don't tend to have the overall energetic traits that others have 24/7.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'll second that one. My Tango's one of the quickest cats I've seen, and regularly slips past us even when we try to keep him in. This is why I have an airlock system, so even when he slips out, he's never free roaming outside, just ends up in another containment area.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I'll second that one. My Tango's one of the quickest cats I've seen, and regularly slips past us even when we try to keep him in. This is why I have an airlock system, so even when he slips out, he's never free roaming outside, just ends up in another containment area.


airlock doors are the best thing ever aren't they!!!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

They're the only way to keep cats safely indoors when they're entire!


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> I am not saying you CANT keep them in I am just saying people should be a teeny bit more understanding of genuine escapes/accidents as it often isn't as easy To keep them in as people think or claim.
> If they are determined enough they can often escape through the most unlikely ways.
> 
> If they wouldn't do it they wouldn't do it :confused1:
> They did tell us 2 or 3 weeks.


I can understand maybe one escape or accident, but multiple times? I'm sorry it just defies logic. That's like crashing into things over and over again with your car because you just keep looking down to text while driving and you can't for the life of you figure out how it is your going to stop this from happening since you always seem to have a text to answer behind the wheel. :blink: But instead, you should think about ways to prevent the "accident" from happening over and over and over again.

I'm not clear here how it is that the OP can't seem to teach a small child basic rules. How do kids ever learn anything if the adults around them just throw up their hands and say, well, I can't stop them!??! You can teach a child not to set the house on fire, use a toilet appropriately, not open the door and go running out into the street, even to read! so why can't you teach a child to not open a door when there's a cat behind it? I'm not having a go, I just don't understand how there can be, what, 5 pregancies in rapid succession and there's just no way to prevent them? 15 to 20 vets were contacted and not a single one of them could book in an emergency spay within a week of the cat getting out? Every single time? Are they really that busy? (I did the maths really fast---that would be 75-100 opportunities for any vet in the area that you called to have an opening at any given time after your cat got out.

As for aborting kittens---as Taylorbaby, Spid, and other have pointed out, cat biology isn't quite the same as with humans and there's a huge window of time really before fertilized eggs implant. I won't get into the whole moral/religious/etc issue, but if it's the preservation of life you're after, having back to back to back to back to back pregnancies will eventually kill your cat, and you will ultimately end up with weak, sickly kittens who will be born and then fade away. How much kinder is it to not have them ever be born? That said, try to make sure your cat is in good shape before she is spayed. I think it was just a week or so ago that a cat on this forum was finally taken by a responsible new owner for a spay, after she'd had lord knows how many pregnancies under other peoples' care, and her heart gave out. She was very young and should have been strong. It was very very sad and I'm not mentioning it to dissuade you from having your cat spayed---just to point out how very much continuous pregnancies take out of a mother. Take very good care of her and make sure she's strong before she goes under anasthaesia.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> I can understand maybe one escape or accident, but multiple times? I'm sorry it just defies logic. That's like crashing into things over and over again with your car because you just keep looking down to text while driving and you can't for the life of you figure out how it is your going to stop this from happening since you always seem to have a text to answer behind the wheel. :blink: But instead, you should think about ways to prevent the "accident" from happening over and over and over again.
> 
> I'm not clear here how it is that the OP can't seem to teach a small child basic rules. How do kids ever learn anything if the adults around them just throw up their hands and say, well, I can't stop them!??! You can teach a child not to set the house on fire, use a toilet appropriately, not open the door and go running out into the street, even to read! so why can't you teach a child to not open a door when there's a cat behind it? I'm not having a go, I just don't understand how there can be, what, 5 pregancies in rapid succession and there's just no way to prevent them? 15 to 20 vets were contacted and not a single one of them could book in an emergency spay within a week of the cat getting out? Every single time? Are they really that busy? (I did the maths really fast---that would be 75-100 opportunities for any vet in the area that you called to have an opening at any given time after your cat got out.
> 
> As for aborting kittens---as Taylorbaby, Spid, and other have pointed out, cat biology isn't quite the same as with humans and there's a huge window of time really before fertilized eggs implant. I won't get into the whole moral/religious/etc issue, but if it's the preservation of life you're after, having back to back to back to back to back pregnancies will eventually kill your cat, and you will ultimately end up with weak, sickly kittens who will be born and then fade away. How much kinder is it to not have them ever be born? That said, try to make sure your cat is in good shape before she is spayed. I think it was just a week or so ago that a cat on this forum was finally taken by a responsible new owner for a spay, after she'd had lord knows how many pregnancies under other peoples' care, and her heart gave out. She was very young and should have been strong. It was very very sad and I'm not mentioning it to dissuade you from having your cat spayed---just to point out how very much continuous pregnancies take out of a mother. Take very good care of her and make sure she's strong before she goes under anasthaesia.


I realise my posts are perhaps a little unclear, while I agree that 4 times is shocking and I also agree that back to back pregnancies are a very very bad thing, I was just saying that sometimes it's hard to keep them in when in heat and that people sometimes have a tendency to really bite at people who have an unplanned litter of kittens when IMO, accidents can and do happen and that rage should be targeted more at those who are deliberately breeding for a profit or deliberately not spaying.

I for one am very relieved to hear that op contacted the rescue and I assume the cat has now been spayed.

I hope that people did not think I was trying to say that multiple pregnancies are okay, or that multiple pregnancies are harmless to the cat.
I was ONLY saying that sometimes it's hard to keep them in, especially if you have un cooperative family members in the op's case and that certain, particularly active breeds may be more likely to try and escape.

Re aborting kittens, at 3 weeks the embryos are formed and developing so in my case, I did have an issue with spaying her at this point. 
I would have happily spayed her before this point if a vet had been willing.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I have had a number of emergency spays done, some at quite an advanced stage. It is better for the cat in the end, and all of them recovered well to go on to a better life.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

koekemakranka said:


> I have had a number of emergency spays done, some at quite an advanced stage. It is better for the cat in the end, and all of them recovered well to go on to a better life.


How do you know it was better for the cat and they had a better life...?

I am not trying to downplay the severity of back to back litters nor am I advocating allowing cats to breed at an early age or with unknown cats but in our case, the one unplanned litter to a very young cat was the easiest, smoothest running, quickest pregnancy and labour I have ever known, the kittens were healthy and well looked after and the mother cat and her now adult kittens all have very good lives.

You say you have had a number of emergency spays, some at an advanced stage, why were the cats not spayed before as it sounds like you had a lot of cats..?
I can understand one or two but how many are we talking here?

As far as I am aware, late term spaying is not recommended as there is a bigger risk of excessive blood loss and maternal death and recovery can be harder on the cat.
A lot of vets will not do a late term spay.

IMO, to not bother to spay and just wait for them to get pregnant and then spay, even late term, is very wrong.
Unless I am getting the wrong end of the stick and misinterpreting your post?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Sparkle22 said:


> Unless I am getting the wrong end of the stick and misinterpreting your post?


I think you are slightly....as far as I am aware Kokemekranka helps out with strays and ferals in a country where there is not a lot of official rescue set ups.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Paddypaws said:


> I think you are slightly....as far as I am aware Kokemekranka helps out with strays and ferals in a country where there is not a lot of official rescue set ups.


So they aren't her pet cats then, okay.
IMO, late term spaying unless the mother is highly likely to die during labour is wrong.
It is wrong for the additional pressure and risks it puts on the cat and it is wrong for moral reasons and sanctity of life.

While you have to take anything you read online with a certain degree of distrust the following website links illustrates my opinion on the issue pretty clearly.

What stage of cat pregnancy has my female cat reached?

IMO, a far better option would be to trap and spay non pregnant ferals and early neuter the kittens the advanced pregnancy group produced.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> So they aren't her pet cats then, okay.
> IMO, late term spaying unless the mother is highly likely to die during labour is wrong.
> It is wrong for the additional pressure and risks it puts on the cat and it is wrong for moral reasons and sanctity of life.
> 
> ...


Alot better for the unborn kittens to be aborted than to spend its life on a street struggling to find food,i doubt there is many people wanting pet cats where she lives.I could be wrong.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Alot better for the unborn kittens to be aborted than to spend its life on a street struggling to find food,i doubt there is many people wanting pet cats where she lives.I could be wrong.


Surely the feral argument is at least somewhat based on what ifs though?

They may struggle to find food, or, they may be lucky and people, tourists perhaps or rescue organisations may provide them with food? 
Or there may be enough small prey around for them to find their own?

In theory, if you were really committed to trapping and spaying up pregnant or early pregnancy cats and early neutering all litters of kittens the numbers would plummet dramatically?

I know they will always be there because there will always be cats that evade capture or people that dump their unneutered cats outside but the situation could at least be managed?


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> Surely the feral argument is at least somewhat based on what ifs though?
> 
> They may struggle to find food, or, they may be lucky and people, tourists perhaps or rescue organisations may provide them with food?
> Or there may be enough small prey around for them to find their own?
> ...


Ah if only it were so easy


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> In theory, if you were really committed to trapping and spaying up pregnant or early pregnancy cats and early neutering all litters of kittens the numbers would plummet dramatically?


I'm frankly stunned that anyone would make a personal negative comment like this to someone actively involved in rescue


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

havoc said:


> I'm frankly stunned that anyone would make a personal negative comment like this to someone actively involved in rescue


I didn't make a personal negative statement.

I said in theory trapping and spaying non pregnant and early Pregnancy cats and early neutering the litters of the cats that were late term would greatly reduce the numbers.

I also said that I do not agree with late term spaying unless the queen was unlikely to survive the labour.

And that feral cats will always exist because some evade capture and the will always be people that dump unneutered animals, which is true.

Where's the insult?????

Which bit is causing offence exactly?

The fact that I don't think it's very nice to subject a late term cat to a spay given the extra risk of complications and the moral issues behind killing kittens that are almost ready to be born?

If you don't agree with my opinion fine but do not try and suggest that I have said things that are blatently not true.
No where have I said a single negative thing about someone in rescue thank you very much, I simply stated my personal opinion on late spaying and how, IMO, the problem of feral cat colonies could be addressed.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> The fact that I don't think it's very nice to subject a late term cat to a spay given the extra risk of complications and *the moral issues behind killing kittens that are almost ready to be born? *


Those are YOUR morals and your own opinions. Please don't shove your own "morals" down everyone else's throat.

You are now coming across as just arguing for the sake of arguing and it's not very flattering.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

I haven't shoved my morals at all, I have constantly been saying 'I', 'IMO', 'personally' etc because it's MY opinion. 
are we not allowed to have conflicting opinions on a FORUM.
So sorry, I didn't realise I had to agree with everyone else. 

All I said was I personally don't agree with late spaying, personally being the operative word which you'll notice peppered about in most of my posts actually which resulted in posts supporting it in response to mine so I responded to them, isn't that what you do on a forum????

I didn't even come on for an argument, I left a comment and in response got told I was being personal and negative to someone in rescue when I clearly and blatently wasn't so who is starting fights?
Sure as hell ain't me!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> if *you* were really committed


How is that not pointed and personal?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

havoc said:


> How is that not pointed and personal?


Why don't try reading the whole sentence instead of picking out one word?

In THEORY if you were committed, theory, in that instance referring to a hypothetical situation; an alternative method in 'controlling' the population and you, in that instance not referring to a specific person but a group/situation as a whole. 
I thought that was obvious tbh.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> *The fact that I don't think it's very nice *to subject a late term cat to a spay given the extra risk of complications and *the moral issues behind killing kittens that are almost ready to be born? *


Nope, not judgmental at all.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> \, I have constantly been saying 'I', 'IMO', 'personally' etc because it's MY opinion.


Yup, opinions are just like a$$holes. Everyone has one. :Yawn:


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> Surely the feral argument is at least somewhat based on what ifs though?
> 
> They may struggle to find food, or, they may be lucky and people, tourists perhaps or rescue organisations may provide them with food?
> Or there may be enough small prey around for them to find their own?
> ...


I can only take away from this that you mean well but are terribly naive. No matter how committed any individual rescuer, or even all of them is, there are so many mitigating circumstances, not least of which the number of people out there who think it's just no big deal if their pet has an oops litter or two, or think it's no big deal to never get their indoor/outdoor tom neutered because he likes to roam about, or that it's natural for a cat to "want to be a mom", etc etc. If you take all of our respective countries together, there are literally armies of people who think this way (or don't bother to think at all). But just because there will always be cats out there who are feral and unneutered doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to educate and prevent on a case by case basis.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> I can only take away from this that you mean well but are terribly naive. No matter how committed any individual rescuer, or even all of them is, there are so many mitigating circumstances, not least of which the number of people out there who think it's just no big deal if their pet has an oops litter or two, or think it's no big deal to never get their indoor/outdoor tom neutered because he likes to roam about, or that it's natural for a cat to "want to be a mom", etc etc. If you take all of our respective countries together, there are literally armies of people who think this way (or don't bother to think at all). But just because there will always be cats out there who are feral and unneutered doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to educate and prevent on a case by case basis.


I think you should educate and try to prevent, I just don't think spaying a heavily pregnant cat is the right way to go about it personally.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> Yup, opinions are just like a$$holes. Everyone has one. :Yawn:


How childish.
Why can't you just accept that whether you like it or not we all have different views and airing a view isn't the same as actively trying to force people to your way of your thinking. 
At the end of the day, everybody here posts in what they think is in the best interests of the animal. 
You don't have to agree with what others say but there is no need to behave in such a juvenile manner just because you don't agree with an opinion :thumbdown:


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> How childish.
> Why can't you just accept that whether you like it or not we all have different views and *airing a view isn't the same as actively trying to force people to your way of your thinking. *
> At the end of the day, everybody here posts in what they think is in the best interests of the animal.
> You don't have to agree with what others say but there is no need to behave in such a juvenile manner just because you don't agree with an opinion :thumbdown:


That's all you've done in your total hijack of this thread. Tried to actively FORCE your way of thinking onto everyone else.

How childish is that?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> That's all you've done in your total hijack of this thread. Tried to actively FORCE your way of thinking onto everyone else.
> 
> How childish is that?


No I haven't. 
I responded to someone who said she spayed late term, people responded back and I answered.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Why don't try reading the whole sentence instead of picking out one word?


I did. I quoted it about 4 posts earlier and ensured both quotes were on the same page when I highlighted the most offending phrase.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Not often I am lost for words, but I simple cant post on this thread anymore! 
However I have found this useful in situations like this


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

havoc said:


> I did. I quoted it about 4 posts earlier and ensured both quotes were on the same page when I highlighted the most offending phrase.


There wasn't an offensive phrase in there... :glare:

Seems some people get offended at the silliest things, even when clearly, I thought anyway, no offence was even intended.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> I think you should educate and try to prevent, I just don't think spaying a heavily pregnant cat is the right way to go about it personally.


I understand someones reasoning perfectly regarding late term spays - also early spay/neuter. You only have to take one look around the forum to realize there is a rescue problem, too many cats and kittens, few too homes.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> Sparkle22 said:
> 
> 
> > I have no comeback lol
> ...


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## imogenmc3 (Nov 25, 2013)

Sparkle have you really honestly sat and thought about ALL of the reasons why it is a good thing to spay a pregnant feral cat, no matter what stage the pregnancy?

I find in situations like this a list of good and bad reasons can be used to weigh up the situation realistically.

Good reasons to spay, what ever stage:


 That female will no longer add to the growing number of roaming cats

There will be less cats roaming, starving, diseased, contagious, flea and tick ridden, worm ridden .... etc

That female will no longer put her life in danger to search for food because she is starving, and trying to feed herself enough to feed her developing kittens

That female will not give birth to kittens that could be deformed, since a lot of feral mating's are by fathers, brothers etc

That female will possibly not die as young because her body has been depleted of almost all of its nutrients whilst raising yet another litter (do you know the average age of death for a feral cat?)

The bad reasons, reasons not to spay:


It makes you uncomfortable to think that unborn lives are destroyed

Please feel free to add to the last list. I tried and honestly can't think of any other valid reasons. Yes some female will die during their spay during late pregnancy, but surely when you weigh it up it was better to give her a chance to live, than die in pain from starvation or disease along with her kittens. Sometimes there are fates worse than death.

I could add a few more to the first list too, but think the ones I have listed are more than enough.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> How childish.
> Why can't you just accept that whether you like it or not we all have different views and airing a view isn't the same as actively trying to force people to your way of your thinking.
> At the end of the day, everybody here posts in what they think is in the best interests of the animal.
> You don't have to agree with what others say but there is no need to behave in such a juvenile manner just because you don't agree with an opinion :thumbdown:


Your very good at telling people what you think they should or shouldn't do to help the stray population. It amazes me that the people who do nothing and often contribute to the problem, you did have an oops litter correct?, are the ones who sit and tut and spout their morals, but never get their hands dirty? So your kittens from your oops litter left you spayed? Or with a spaying neutering contract that you have enforced and followed up on?


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## Kateeeeeeecat (Nov 21, 2013)

So, it's me again. Original poster  

Just to clear a few things up because, quiet frankly, this is annoying. I posted in this forum for help with a problem that I was completely unaware of at the beginning of me taking the cat in. When posting in this forum, I kind of expected some support (which a few people did give) but mostly, it's been people being rather rude and telling me and other posters that we're bad owners basically. You know what's best for you and your cat. That may not be what's best for me and mine. Each cat, owner and home is different and some thing don't work for all of us. Surely the point of this type of forum is too be supportive of fellow cat owners/lovers and to put the best ideas forward to help the cat, not insult each other because some think they're owner of the year. 

I did contact the charity and they helped me. But guess what.. Even their vets told me that there was a very high possibility that they would not spay her because she was too heavily pregnant. I was once again told that it may be safer for her to go home and have the kittens. Thankfully, when another vet checked her over, they took her womb and everything else. So, yeah, another vets who nearly turned me away. It does happen more often than most cat owners would like and that's none of our control, that's the vets decision. At the end of the day, if the vets say it's safer and better for her to have the kittens, I'm doing what's best for the cat regardless. All her kittens have been given away to good homes, so atleast they're not homeless and in ill health. 

As for the people asking about my sister. Please can you tell me what little sister is going to listen to their older sister? Seriously? Some family's work great and everyone listens to each other and everyone is so well behaved but that's not my family. That's not my situation. 

That's my rant over. It's just disheartening for me really because I posted here asking for help. I have other cats who sleep all day and I was told that she was the same and was done and everything was fine. So it was just as much a shock to me! I thought she was fat! 

I just wanted to get across that it's all about the cats, not the owner. Whether you think the owner is a complete idiot or whatever, suggesting what you do with your cat is always helpful. But not forcing it down their throat and claiming that it's gods law and that is what everyone one must do. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it doesn't need to be causing 13 pages of digs basically. You don't have to agree but this isn't a place to cat fight over kitty's 

Each owner knows that best for their cat at the end of the day and people need to accept that.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

There is a higher risk when spaying a heavily pregnant cat due to increased blood flow to the teats, etc which means a higher chance of the cat bleeding out during surgery which is why some vets can be reluctant to spay a cat for members of the public.

If they had decided she was too far gone I would have (with your permission) rang them to explain the situation and I am sure they would have agreed to spay her anyway as long as you were aware of the risks which they would have explained to you if she was past a certain point.

Nevertheless I am glad it all went smoothly and the cat is now neutered and can begin her happy ever after with you and your family x


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Kateeeeeeecat said:


> Each owner knows that best for their cat at the end of the day and people need to accept that.


I don't think you'll find anyone on here who agrees that letting an unspayed cat outdoors to get pregnant over and over is the best for the cat, that is not something that should be accepted at all.



Kateeeeeeecat said:


> I just wanted to get across that it's all about the cats, not the owner


Everyone posting cared about your poor cat and the condition her poor body would be in having so many kittens so close together, it is about the owner too, they're the only one with the power to do the right thing for animals in their care.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Strange your now also asking about using your dog for stud!!!


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Strange your now also asking about using your dog for stud!!!


Really :yikes::yikes:.....  ......... I have just read ...... no words really ..... other than p1ss take


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Kateeeeeeecat said:


> So, it's me again. Original poster
> 
> Just to clear a few things up because, quiet frankly, this is annoying. I posted in this forum for help with a problem that I was completely unaware of at the beginning of me taking the cat in.


Seriously :shocked:? You told us she's had FOUR litters now under your care. FOUR!!! 4. And you claim to have just thrown your hands up in helplessness because you and your family just keep letting her out and then you keep asking all sorts of vets, like 15-20 of them, to spay her every time, but they keep telling you no, and the same pattern just keeps repeating itself over and over again and you are powerless to change it, but you expect people to, what? tell you this is okay, and not to fret, it can't be helped?



> When posting in this forum, I kind of expected some support (which a few people did give) but mostly, it's been people being rather rude and telling me and other posters that we're bad owners basically.


 Pardon me while I suppress a chuckle here. What were you really expecting after telling us you've let the cat get pregnant four times?



> You know what's best for you and your cat. That may not be what's best for me and mine. Each cat, owner and home is different and some thing don't work for all of us.


 You know, just because you HAVE a cat doesn't make you an expert on cats. You don't automatically know what's best simply by virtue of having a cat---you learn by reading and listening and all of those things. And I don't think that medical realities, such as 4 back to back pregnancies taking a toll on a cat's health, vary according to household and owner of said cat. Surely you can't really be making that particular argument with a straight face.



> Surely the point of this type of forum is too be supportive of fellow cat owners/lovers and to put the best ideas forward to help the cat, not insult each other because some think they're owner of the year
> 
> 
> > I believe you received quite a lot of very valuable advice based on what's best for your cat. And the vast majority of people here, owners of the year trophy holders or not, will agree that constant pregnancies aren't good. Letting a cat out in call is not good. Exposing your cat to any number of STDs is not good. Anyone who tries to wrap any of that reality in pink fuzziness is merely appeasing you and being nicey nice, but how does being nicey nice to you and filling your heart with fuzzy warmth help your cat at all?
> ...


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

*Sigh* Really?!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dagny0823 said:


> ... my own rant has made me feel good after a day spent fighting holiday crowds,
> so thanks for giving me a [subject] to vent upon.


:lol: made me laugh out-loud. :thumbup1: One more cranky holiday-shopper, fussy as a teething toddler,
ready to fling the pacifier out of the pram & *BITE* anybody, just because!


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> :lol: made me laugh out-loud. :thumbup1: One more cranky holiday-shopper, fussy as a teething toddler,
> ready to fling the pacifier out of the pram & *BITE* anybody, just because!


WAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! 

But really, it wasn't just anybody. I was just amazed that she still doesn't get it after all the advice for the good of her cat and even had the nerve to play the "the cat owner knows what's best" card. I just probably wouldn't have had the energy to summon a tirade of that dimension if I hadn't just been shopping with 10000 annoying people


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Your tirade was fabulous. Repped you!


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