# What constitutes sexual assault?



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*http://www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/pdfs/sexual_assault.pdf

After all the news lately i wanted to find out just what constituted sexual assault and came across the link above.
I have to say after reading it i find it very worrying.And i think our politically correct society has gone mad.
"The Act makes this quite complex to
define. The Act does not include a list of
actions which are considered sexual, but
the approach to determining this is set out.
Basically, there are two categories of acts
which are sexual for the purposes of this
law"...

Any thoughts?*


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

I think a man was once convicted after giving a woman an unwanted kiss on the cheek! That might have been common assault tho....


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

I do think that it's good that there is a law protecting anyone from sexual assault. I think the Act should, if it doesn't already, extend to include men as well as women. I don't think it's a case of political correctness gone wrong, there are always gonna be eijits that take a law too far, but that's the same with any law. At least this one is in place to protect victims.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I do think that it's good that there is a law protecting anyone from sexual assault. I think the Act should, if it doesn't already, extend to include men as well as women. I don't think it's a case of political correctness gone wrong, there are always gonna be eijits that take a law too far, but that's the same with any law. At least this one is in place to protect victims.


*Whilst i agree "true" victims need to be protected i personally think the law can accuse almost anyone of sexual assault.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Whilst i agree "true" victims need to be protected i personally think the law can accuse almost anyone of sexual assault.*


But that's the same with any law.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

It seems to me that what constitutes a victim when it comes to sexual assault nowadays, is very much in the eye of the beholder. I once had a pupil whose boyfriend, when he rang, told me she had had a lesson with a male instructor but he was too familiar. When we met I asked her what had happened, as I am very much against driving instructors who think that a quick feel is a perk of the job. She said, and I quote "he kept calling me my angel". That's it? I knew at once who it was, a very inoffensive older man who calls everybody my angel. How anyone could think that was too familiar coming from him, I have no idea.

When I was at work in the late sixties, all sorts of provocative banter went on in offices and most of it was just that - banter. Nowadays, a man can't even call a woman "love" without her screaming sexual assault.

I think political correctness has gone stark raving mad in all areas of everyday life.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> It seems to me that what constitutes a victim when it comes to sexual assault nowadays, is very much in the eye of the beholder. I once had a pupil whose boyfriend, when he rang, told me she had had a lesson with a male instructor but he was too familiar. When we met I asked her what had happened, as I am very much against driving instructors who think that a quick feel is a perk of the job. She said, and I quote "he kept calling me my angel". That's it? I knew at once who it was, a very inoffensive older man who calls everybody my angel. How anyone could think that was too familiar coming from him, I have no idea.
> 
> When I was at work in the late sixties, all sorts of provocative banter went on in offices and most of it was just that - banter. Nowadays, a man can't even call a woman "love" without her screaming sexual assault.
> 
> I think political correctness has gone stark raving mad in all areas of everyday life.


You have an excellent point, some people are just too sensitive. On the flip side though, some of these gentlemen can and do use it as a flirt. It depends on the woman and the man in question, and the relationship between them.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> It seems to me that what constitutes a victim when it comes to sexual assault nowadays, is very much in the eye of the beholder. I once had a pupil whose boyfriend, when he rang, told me she had had a lesson with a male instructor but he was too familiar. When we met I asked her what had happened, as I am very much against driving instructors who think that a quick feel is a perk of the job. She said, and I quote "he kept calling me my angel". That's it? I knew at once who it was, a very inoffensive older man who calls everybody my angel. How anyone could think that was too familiar coming from him, I have no idea.
> 
> When I was at work in the late sixties, all sorts of provocative banter went on in offices and most of it was just that - banter. Nowadays, a man can't even call a woman "love" without her screaming sexual assault.
> 
> I think political correctness has gone stark raving mad in all areas of everyday life.


*I have worked with loads of guys and like you, banter was common place.Bt if anyone over stepped the mark i would, and have, told them where to get off.
I was just saying to hubby, remember the days when we went dancing, and both couples would be close together, the guy would often hold ya bum or rub his leg on yours. Now you could have them in court for it.:yikes:*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> You have an excellent point, some people are just too sensitive. On the flip side though, some of these gentlemen can and do use it as a flirt. It depends on the woman and the man in question, and the relationship between them.


*Flirting isn't a bad thing.Well not i my book.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Flirting isn't a bad thing.Well not i my book.*


It is when you're 20 and he's nearly 60 :thumbdown:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> It is when you're 20 and he's nearly 60 :thumbdown:


*Flirting, whatever your age ( apart from small children ), is just banter. The problem today is that people think flirting with someone is wanting something more.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Flirting, whatever your age ( apart from small children ), is just banter. The problem today is that people think flirting with someone is wanting something more.*


I think there needs to be a limit on it as well. Some men do think that when you wear certain clothes or have a certain job (in this case I was working in a pub) that you're looking for something. The man that 'flirted' with me frequently tried to look down my top, constantly leered at me and patronised me by telling me I was a 'clever girl' to go to uni. To me, his leering and trying to look down my top was a form of sexual assault and it made me feel horrible, like I wanted to have a shower. I told one of the security guys and, despite being a hard cookie, I spent the next half hour crying because I felt so violated.

I have no problem with flirting but I think people need to realise what's appropriate and what's not.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I think there needs to be a limit on it as well. Some men do think that when you wear certain clothes or have a certain job (in this case I was working in a pub) that you're looking for something. The man that 'flirted' with me frequently tried to look down my top, constantly leered at me and patronised me by telling me I was a 'clever girl' to go to uni. To me, his leering and trying to look down my top was a form of sexual assault and it made me feel horrible, like I wanted to have a shower. I told one of the security guys and, despite being a hard cookie, I spent the next half hour crying because I felt so violated.
> 
> I have no problem with flirting but I think people need to realise what's appropriate and what's not.


*Without sounding harsh, surely you would know that men will always look at womens boobs. I have worked in garages and had to deal with all kinds of men.But their banter imho was part of the job.Half the time its just teasing.
By the way, i would love to have been a barmaid.*


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

Perhaps a bit OT but I watched a recorded exposure programme last night called Exposure and it was about a young girl called Benaz. She went to a police station and put in complaints, albeit about her husband initially and then her own family.

She seemed to have no protection against sexual assault from her husband, she asked the police 'what can you do for me'' - nothing done by police.

Not long after, poor girl was murdered by her own family /relatives in a so called honor killing.

It was totally appalling.

Any law did not protect her


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Without sounding harsh, surely you would know that men will always look at womens boobs. I have worked in garages and had to deal with all kinds of men.But their banter imho was part of the job.Half the time its just teasing.
> By the way, i would love to have been a barmaid.*


Yes, I do know but this man was old enough to be my grandfather and he literally moved over to me, put his hand in the small of my back, looked right down my top and said "There's a gap there". He then made out like he'd done nothing wrong, and only for the fact his friend saw him and apologised on his behalf did he even start to realise what he did wrong. Please don't patronise me by saying that men look at women's boobs and tease, I have a boyfriend and have had banter with lads often. This wasn't banter, this was the actions of a pervert.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Without sounding harsh, surely you would know that men will always look at womens boobs. I have worked in garages and had to deal with all kinds of men.But their banter imho was part of the job.Half the time its just teasing.
> By the way, i would love to have been a barmaid.*


so it is womens fault that men look at them all because they have boobs. just because women have boobs does not mean men can overstep the mark. different things upset different people, you may not find it horrible that men are leering at you, staring at your boobs and saying inappropriate things, but other people do, so yes it does sound harsh.


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm big boobed and have done bar work for many a year as this was how I could afford to buy my car.

I haven't had that many problem, bar from the odd one or two with verbal, but the best way is to be quick in a come back such as - it's my mouth I'm talking with not my .... 

Luckily, I've had really good bosses who basically would rip into them verbally and shame them within an inch of their life. 

verbal I can and have dealt with but woe betide any groping.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> It seems to me that what constitutes a victim when it comes to sexual assault nowadays, is very much in the eye of the beholder. I once had a pupil whose boyfriend, when he rang, told me she had had a lesson with a male instructor but he was too familiar. When we met I asked her what had happened, as I am very much against driving instructors who think that a quick feel is a perk of the job. She said, and I quote "he kept calling me my angel". That's it? I knew at once who it was, a very inoffensive older man who calls everybody my angel. How anyone could think that was too familiar coming from him, I have no idea.
> 
> When I was at work in the late sixties, all sorts of provocative banter went on in offices and most of it was just that - banter. Nowadays, a man can't even call a woman "love" without her screaming sexual assault.
> 
> I think political correctness has gone stark raving mad in all areas of everyday life.


Well I`m not pc and I think thats pushing it. I certainly wouldn`t appreciate it! He may call everyone "my angel" but in the confines of a driving school car with just two people there, it is way too familiar. If accused, his defence would be "he calls everyone that" but that just isn`t on, not in that close environment, with the power balance very one sided.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I think there needs to be a limit on it as well. Some men do think that when you wear certain clothes or have a certain job (in this case I was working in a pub) that you're looking for something. The man that 'flirted' with me frequently tried to look down my top, constantly leered at me and patronised me by telling me I was a 'clever girl' to go to uni. To me, his leering and trying to look down my top was a form of sexual assault and it made me feel horrible, like I wanted to have a shower. I told one of the security guys and, despite being a hard cookie, I spent the next half hour crying because I felt so violated.
> 
> I have no problem with flirting but I think people need to realise what's appropriate and what's not.


I'm overweight, I walk with a stick and I still get men staring at my boobs cos they wobble a lot lol.....TBH I'm glad of a quick look from a man in my state :lol:
Nothing wrong with flirting and I do it all the time. It's when you are touched in an inapropriate way that constitutes sexual assault in my book.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Yes, I do know but this man was old enough to be my grandfather and he literally moved over to me, put his hand in the small of my back, looked right down my top and said "There's a gap there". He then made out like he'd done nothing wrong, and only for the fact his friend saw him and apologised on his behalf did he even start to realise what he did wrong. Please don't patronise me by saying that men look at women's boobs and tease, I have a boyfriend and have had banter with lads often. This wasn't banter, this was the actions of a pervert.





CRL said:


> so it is womens fault that men look at them all because they have boobs. just because women have boobs does not mean men can overstep the mark. different things upset different people, you may not find it horrible that men are leering at you, staring at your boobs and saying inappropriate things, but other people do, so yes it does sound harsh.


*OK for a start i wasn't patronising anyone. This is where the pc brigade have gone too far. imho.
Fact of life, yes "most" men will ogle womens boobs.If your offended then cover up.
I can think of 2 occasions whilst in a pub where, imo the guys over stepped the mark. And i told them in no uncertain terms to F off.
A guy i worked alongside in one of the garages i worked at, thought nothing of thinking it was ok for him to give me a cuddle, i actualy told him i was fussy who touched me, and to keep his hands to himself.Simple.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> Well I`m not pc and I think thats pushing it. I certainly wouldn`t appreciate it! He may call everyone "my angel" but in the confines of a driving school car with just two people there, it is way too familiar. If accused, his defence would be "he calls everyone that" but that just isn`t on, not in that close environment, with the power balance very one sided.


Have to say I agree with this. Sometimes it's just not appropriate to be so familiar.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I think there needs to be a limit on it as well. Some men do think that when you wear certain clothes or have a certain job (in this case I was working in a pub) that you're looking for something. The man that 'flirted' with me frequently tried to look down my top, constantly leered at me and patronised me by telling me I was a 'clever girl' to go to uni. To me, his leering and trying to look down my top was a form of sexual assault and it made me feel horrible, like I wanted to have a shower. I told one of the security guys and, despite being a hard cookie, I spent the next half hour crying because I felt so violated.
> 
> I have no problem with flirting but I think people need to realise what's appropriate and what's not.


Where I work, if that happened to one of the bar staff, they (the customer) would be shown the door.  The manager is protective of his staff so we have to be too.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *OK for a start i wasn't patronising anyone. This is where the pc brigade have gone too far. imho.
> Fact of life, yes "most" men will ogle womens boobs.If your offended then cover up.
> I can think of 2 occasions whilst in a pub where, imo the guys over stepped the mark. And i told them in no uncertain terms to F off.
> A guy i worked alongside in one of the garages i worked at, thought nothing of thinking it was ok for him to give me a cuddle, i actualy told him i was fussy who touched me, and to keep his hands to himself.Simple.*


It came across as somewhat patronising, particularly when you said that men look at women's boobs. It wasn't the looking that was the problem, it was the fact that he came up to me, put his hand on my back and looked directly down my cleavage. Why should I cover up just because he's an arrogant git who thinks women are there to be stared at? As I said before, I have no problem with looking, my problem was that he was touching me when he didn't know me, looked straight down my top and expected me to just put up with it. He was a 50-something year old man and I was 20 and at work. It was completely inappropriate.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> It came across as somewhat patronising, particularly when you said that men look at women's boobs. It wasn't the looking that was the problem, it was the fact that he came up to me, put his hand on my back and looked directly down my cleavage. Why should I cover up just because he's an arrogant git who thinks women are there to be stared at? As I said before, I have no problem with looking, my problem was that he was touching me when he didn't know me, looked straight down my top and expected me to just put up with it. He was a 50-something year old man and I was 20 and at work. It was completely inappropriate.


*Can i ask, did you say anything to him? *


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> It came across as somewhat patronising, particularly when you said that men look at women's boobs. It wasn't the looking that was the problem, it was the fact that he came up to me, put his hand on my back and looked directly down my cleavage. Why should I cover up just because he's an arrogant git who thinks women are there to be stared at? As I said before, I have no problem with looking, my problem was that he was touching me when he didn't know me, looked straight down my top and expected me to just put up with it. He was a 50-something year old man and I was 20 and at work. It was completely inappropriate.


So why didn't you scream 'get your hands off me'?


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Can i ask, did you say anything to him? *





Lavenderb said:


> So why didn't you scream 'get your hands off me'?


I was in shock, I said "Excuse me, what do you think you're doing?"

He smiled and said "What have I done?"

I said "You know exactly what you've done and it's inappropriate. It's £---- for the drinks."

I took the money, gave the change and alerted security. Him and his friends walked off when they saw me talk to security and they downed their drinks and left.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> It is when you're 20 and he's nearly 60 :thumbdown:


That depends. The bloke I was talking about is 72, though still quite good looking and doesn't look his age, but totally inoffensive. My brother called all women sweetheart right up until he died at 72, and nobody minded. He was very charming always and not a bit leery.



Rabbitmonkee said:


> I think there needs to be a limit on it as well. Some men do think that when you wear certain clothes or have a certain job (in this case I was working in a pub) that you're looking for something. The man that 'flirted' with me frequently tried to look down my top, constantly leered at me and patronised me by telling me I was a 'clever girl' to go to uni. To me, his leering and trying to look down my top was a form of sexual assault and it made me feel horrible, like I wanted to have a shower. I told one of the security guys and, despite being a hard cookie, I spent the next half hour crying because I felt so violated.
> 
> I have no problem with flirting but I think people need to realise what's appropriate and what's not.


What you describe is not my idea of flirting, that is different altogether.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

CRL said:


> so it is womens fault that men look at them all because they have boobs. just because women have boobs does not mean men can overstep the mark. different things upset different people, you may not find it horrible that men are leering at you, staring at your boobs and saying inappropriate things, but other people do, so yes it does sound harsh.


I stare at mens bums as they walk past and I'll check out the lunchbox too if its obvious :lol: I'm afraid we live in a world where men and women stare. Look at the animal world, all the flirting and preening to attract a mate...we are no different.
If you don't want people to stare at boobs then don't have them out on show, simple.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I was in shock, I said "Excuse me, what do you think you're doing?"
> 
> He smiled and said "What have I done?"
> 
> ...


*Ok so for the sake of the, purpose of this thread do you think he should be in court over what he did?*


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> It came across as somewhat patronising, particularly when you said that men look at women's boobs. It wasn't the looking that was the problem, it was the fact that he came up to me, put his hand on my back and looked directly down my cleavage. Why should I cover up just because he's an arrogant git who thinks women are there to be stared at? As I said before, I have no problem with looking, my problem was that he was touching me when he didn't know me, looked straight down my top and expected me to just put up with it. He was a 50-something year old man and I was 20 and at work. It was completely inappropriate.


Id probably have gone to his neether regions and squeeeeezed,


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok so for the sake of the, purpose of this thread do you think he should be in court over what he did?*


I think if he does it consistently, yes.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I was in shock, I said "Excuse me, what do you think you're doing?"
> 
> He smiled and said "What have I done?"
> 
> ...


You're young and you will learn ways to deal with men like that. I'm not patronising you, it's just you keep learning all your life.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

welshjet said:


> Id probably have gone to his neether regions and squeeeeezed,


*lol then you would be done for sexual assault.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> You're young and you will learn ways to deal with men like that. I'm not patronising you, it's just you keep learning all your life.


Indeed, but what got me is that he thinks that behaviour is appropriate. Women shouldn't have to learn way to deal with men like that, men like that should learn what's appropriate and what's not, in exactly the same way as some women need to learn what's appropriate and what's not (case in point: my flatmate).


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I think if he does it consistently, yes.


*Trust me, all you need to do is embarrass him once, he won't do it again.I give one warning only, then all hell breaks loose.
It worries me, that today there are going to be endless people charged with sexual assault, because of a certain perv. But in actual fact they have done nothing wrong.*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Indeed, but what got me is that he thinks that behaviour is appropriate. Women shouldn't have to learn way to deal with men like that, men like that should learn what's appropriate and what's not, in exactly the same way as some women need to learn what's appropriate and what's not (case in point: my flatmate).


He's from a different era to you. To him its acceptable to have a quick grope because he's gotten away with it.
There are plans to start educating school children about healthy relationships in an attempt to help bring down the amount of domestic violence in todays relationships. Hopefully it will also be an education to whats acceptable behaviour to others and what isn't but men will always love boobs


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> It is when you're 20 and he's nearly 60 :thumbdown:


 Age is irrelevant if it makes you uncomfortable a simple "I do not appreciate that" *should* be enough to stop it.. It is the same with teasing and bullying, what is the difference? Teasing is usually delivered with a smile it still makes a person feel the same, inadequate, small, silly... Twice I had to get heavy with flirts, one was a guy and I just reminded him I knew his home number and his wife's name. The other was a woman, she was the hardest to deal with, as she said it was prejudice, I pointed out that it was nothing to do with her being gay I just did not fancy her... In both cases this was enough to stop the action.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Indeed, but what got me is that he thinks that behaviour is appropriate. Women shouldn't have to learn way to deal with men like that, men like that should learn what's appropriate and what's not, in exactly the same way as some women need to learn what's appropriate and what's not (case in point: my flatmate).


*But the young also have to remember we had different rules before the pc brigade became popular.*


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> You're young and you will learn ways to deal with men like that. I'm not patronising you, it's just you keep learning all your life.


Quite right, you call security and let them deal with it. That`s their job.


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

i think unwanted sexual attention (whether it be physical or verbal) is clearly inappropriate and should be dealt with.

but it does make me sad that we live in a world where people get offended by terms such as "love" or "sweetheart". personally i like it!  obviously not if it's said in a patronising/leering manner, but then i'd speak up and ask them not to call me it! 

i want to make it clear that i certainly DO NOT condone assault in any form, but i do think that sometimes people are a bit oversensitive nowadays. political correctness has gone a bit mad in my opinion!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sussexplumber said:


> Quite right, you call security and let them deal with it. That`s their job.


*And if it leads to a guy being prosecuted? *


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Tis funny who much times have changed and its probably a good thing in many ways. Not everybody appreciates flirty comments/attention and at least nowadays you arent seen as a party pooper or prude for refusing to accept it.
Although the PC crowd do go overboard sometimes. I can remember many years ago a male colleague who was often hugging people and playing practical jokes on them, esp if it made them uncomfortable. We got our own back by hiring a stripper dressed as a policewoman to come to work and 'arrest' him!LOL I dont think he enjoyed being on the receiving end so much!! (of course the whole lot of us would of been sacked if we behaved like that now!!:lol.


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *lol then you would be done for sexual assault.*


But honestly - can you see any bloke making a complaint tbat his plums were grp
groped and squeezed


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *But the young also have to remember we had different rules before the pc brigade became popular.*


Just because someone is of a different generation, it doesnt make it acceptable behaviour to treat a woman like a piece of meat as this chap did. I dont think its the pc brigade gone mad to expect a young woman to be able to feel safe, and comfortable in their place of work.

I have worked with men from the age of 17 - and the older men were actually the MOST courteous in my experience, so generation gap is just no excuse. Iv had worse treatment from my middle aged colleagues than the older colleagues (who would say "my love" etc, but I knew them and knew the context).


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But the young also have to remember we had different rules before the pc brigade became popular.*


And thank goodness for these guys. Pervs, gropers, bullies have always existed and people have always been made to feel uncomfortable by them. Before it was a nudge, nudge, wink, wink, and they got away with it. As the recent case of Jimmy Saville high lights . At least now if some one is told about it they know their reputation is at stake.

But I do also think calls of harrassment should be thought about and be real other wise the hard work of those fighting to protect our dignity at work become scorned at and their value reduced.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

welshjet said:


> But honestly - can you see any bloke making a complaint tbat his plums were grp
> groped and squeezed


Depends who by!


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

welshjet said:


> But honestly - can you see any bloke making a complaint tbat his plums were grp
> groped and squeezed


Or the young office lad being sexually harassed by his older female manager, because after all is it not all young lads dream to have an older woman .


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

grumpy goby said:


> Just because someone is of a different generation, it doesnt make it acceptable behaviour to treat a woman like a piece of meat as this chap did. I dont think its the pc brigade gone mad to expect a young woman to be able to feel safe, and comfortable in their place of work.
> 
> I have worked with men from the age of 17 - and the older men were actually the MOST courteous in my experience, so generation gap is just no excuse. Iv had worse treatment from my middle aged colleagues than the older colleagues (who would say "my love" etc, but I knew them and knew the context).


*Well sorry, but like it or not times have changed and imo not for the better.I'm 62 now but can still remember being young.
And where did i state it was ok for women to be treated like meat?
What i will say is this, if women are prepared to stand up in court to complain, then why not nip the problem i the bud.
Now this might not be popular with some, but hello this is the REAL world. Get a grip not a bloody gripe.*


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *But the young also have to remember we had different rules before the pc brigade became popular.*


But this isnt a matter of being pc, its an criminal offence that could see you added to that register of special people the police keep under the counter at the station! lol


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> Or the young office lad being sexually harassed by his older female manager, because after all is it not all young lads dream to have an older woman .


Quite true. Most men wouldnt dare to make that sort of complaint - whatever the situation


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sussexplumber said:


> But this isnt a matter of being pc, its an criminal offence that could see you added to that register of special people the police keep under the counter at the station! lol


*Sorry but i think it IS the pc brigade..The news of late and people being mentioned are all being classed as pedo's. When in actually fact, if you go back to " the day" it was nothing of the sort.*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well sorry, but like it or not times have changed and imo not for the better.I'm 62 now but can still remember being young.
> And where did i state it was ok for women to be treated like meat?
> What i will say is this, if women are prepared to stand up in court to complain, then why not nip the problem i the bud.
> Now this might not be popular with some, but hello this is the REAL world. Get a grip not a bloody gripe.*


Cos sometimes men are told and dont listen. Trust me on that! Iv had men who were my superiors in the workplace not take being told! There were people I could laugh and joke with, and people who took thee first rejection of their attention on the chin. But some men DONT stop. and they make your life bloody hell. Iv only ever had one instance where I have had to take it to HR, but its a good example of it.

Its not a matter of getting a grip, its a matter of some men thinking every woman is an easy target for their little kicks.

and again, i say age is irrelevant, my mentor was 64 and a perfect gent. when he retired, the next guy at 46 was the total opposite.


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## Anne Marie (Sep 14, 2012)

I don't know if this counts but when i was a carer for an older gentleman and at time he was VERY VERY over friendly if you know what i mean with grabbing and trying to kiss me But could i call it a sexual assault when he has dementia? 

I just brushed it off and said hey behave and left it at that, even though he was doing it often he wouldn't remember doing it often due to his illness. 

Having said that the other carer did take offence and seriously what could anyone do? tell him not to do it, like this will work?, find another employment? or is it best just to brush it off like i did.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Anne Marie said:


> I don't know if this counts but when i was a carer for an older gentleman and at time he was VERY VERY over friendly if you know what i mean with grabbing and trying to kiss me But could i call it a sexual assault when he has dementia?
> 
> I just brushed it off and said hey behave and left it at that, even though he was doing it often he wouldn't remember doing it often due to his illness.
> 
> Having said that the other carer did take offence and seriously what could anyone do? tell him not to do it, like this will work?, find another employment? or is it best just to brush it off like i did.


In that instance I too would brush it off and having worked in that field myself I can understand what dementia does to people.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *And if it leads to a guy being prosecuted? *


OK a scenario.

1975. A young girl 14 years old, back to school early for tutor registration.
She is surrounded by four boys, who corner her, she is gropped on her breasts, her skirt lifted, underwear commented on, and comments of being hard to get are made.Jeering and laughing. Male teacher enters room leave ** alone get out you lads. ** stop flirting with the boys. Girl is in a state red, flustered, inexperienced and gabbling nervously. Assault?? It was then and it is now, the only thing is now those lads would have been hauled to the headmasters office and dealt with. Back then it was just lads being lads... Should they have been done for assualt put on some register, no, but they sure as hell should have been made to realise it was unacceptable. The girl should she have been helped and not made to feel she was asking for it?? Hell YES... I wonder who it is that remembers it all...


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> In that instance I too would brush it off and having worked in that field myself I can understand what dementia does to people.


If you are taking about personal care in a residential home, I would leave him for a male staff member to wash and dress. The managers should ensure this was sorted out.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but i think it IS the pc brigade..The news of late and people being mentioned are all being classed as pedo's. When in actually fact, if you go back to " the day" it was nothing of the sort.*


Your comment reminded me of a few comments others made about the happenings with JS. A few commented as you appear to say that back then it happened and was often brushed off...some of the girls egged these people on some would say. One thing bothered me. What about the children in hospital that have reported abuse....surely they wouldn't have been leading anyone on? And the abuser would have been well aware of their ages being that they were on childrens wards.
There is brushing off a quick grope and there is brushing off child sex offences?
As you say things were different back then.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> OK a scenario.
> 
> 1975. A young girl 14 years old, back to school early for tutor registration.
> She is surrounded by four boys, who corner her, she is gropped on her breasts, her skirt lifted, underwear commented on, and comments of being hard to get are made.Jeering and laughing. Male teacher enters room leave ** alone get out you lads. ** stop flirting with the boys. Girl is in a state red, flustered, inexperienced and gabbling nervously. Assault?? It was then and it is now, the only thing is now those lads would have been hauled to the headmasters office and dealt with. Back then it was just lads being lads... Should they have been done for assualt put on some register, no, but they sure as hell should have been made to realise it was unacceptable. The girl should she have been helped and not made to feel she was asking for it?? Hell YES... I wonder who it is that remembers it all...


The boys would have been in line for a caning, over the heads desk....

Till 1967 (in England at least) homosexuality was illegal, can we expect to see backdated prosecutions on these grounds too?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> If you are taking about personal care in a residential home, I would leave him for a male staff member to wash and dress. The managers should ensure this was sorted out.


A lot of homes are all female staff.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

grumpy goby said:


> Cos sometimes men are told and dont listen. Trust me on that! Iv had men who were my superiors in the workplace not take being told! There were people I could laugh and joke with, and people who took thee first rejection of their attention on the chin. But some men DONT stop. and they make your life bloody hell. Iv only ever had one instance where I have had to take it to HR, but its a good example of it.
> 
> Its not a matter of getting a grip, its a matter of some men thinking every woman is an easy target for their little kicks.
> 
> and again, i say age is irrelevant, my mentor was 64 and a perfect gent. when he retired, the next guy at 46 was the total opposite.


*" Some " men will always think that women are easy targets, no matter what the situation is.But imo women need to stand their own ground "where possible".*


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> The boys would have been in line for a caning, over the heads desk....


No they were not even reprimanded,they were just told to leave ** alone. It was lads being lads..Just like JS. I bet none of the lads nor the teacher remember it... but I sure as hell do...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> I think a man was once convicted after giving a woman an unwanted kiss on the cheek! ....


dont tell my wife.... :yikes:


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> A lot of homes are all female staff.


Its an issue for the home management to deal with and if that`s how he behaves to women they need to employ a few men too. Whether he realises it or not isn`t the point here, its the effect on the staff concerned.


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## Anne Marie (Sep 14, 2012)

I've worked both in a residential home and a personal home and each place i've worked in has been female staff only.. i'm sure its not like this everywhere but i do think its mainly women.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Lavenderb said:


> Your comment reminded me of a few comments others made about the happenings with JS. A few commented as you appear to say that back then it happened and was often brushed off...some of the girls egged these people on some would say. One thing bothered me. What about the children in hospital that have reported abuse....surely they wouldn't have been leading anyone on? And the abuser would have been well aware of their ages being that they were on childrens wards.
> There is brushing off a quick grope and there is brushing off child sex offences?
> As you say things were different back then.


*What JS did was wrong without a doubt, and so is anyone else who thinks and behaves as he did.
But now people are being placed in the same catergory as him and i think its so wrong.*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *What JS did was wrong without a doubt, and so is anyone else who thoinks and behaves as he did.
> But now people are being placed in the same catergory as him and i think its so wrong.*


I agree you can't place a man who has groped a woman's bottom in the same register as a child sex offender or rapist. But then you may find that the offenders licence conditions would differ anyway. The more serious offences receiving a higher level of conditions.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *" Some " men will always think that women are easy targets, no matter what the situation is.But imo women need to stand their own ground "where possible".*


All im saying, standing your ground doesnt necessarily work, which is why laws are in place to protect them.

I am not a push over. I have fought my way through work at everystep - being the first female employed by the engineering department since the place was built i had to, and I had to prove I could pit myself against the men. EVERY night out as an apprentice I had to put someone in their place... eventually they got the picture, on the most part.

No matter how many times you tell someone to F*** off and leave you alone, if they are of the bigotted, sexist and ignorant mindset that some men (and women) are - they wont just go away.

Thats when the law can protect someone before the boundries are pushed far enough that someone may get hurt.

Being in my industry, I am VERY glad of the law to be honest. I have to deal with some right creeps (colleagues, customers and contractors, and I know that the only thing protecting me from having to have constant everyday battles with them for an ounce of respect sometimes is the law and very strict HR rules! (and their fear of coming a cropper to those laws/rules)


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> I agree you can't place a man who has groped a woman's bottom in the same register as a child sex offender or rapist. But then you may find that the offenders licence conditions would differ anyway. The more serious offences receiving a higher level of conditions.


Agreed.............


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

northnsouth said:


> OK a scenario.
> 
> 1975. A young girl 14 years old, back to school early for tutor registration.
> She is surrounded by four boys, who corner her, she is gropped on her breasts, her skirt lifted, underwear commented on, and comments of being hard to get are made.Jeering and laughing. Male teacher enters room leave ** alone get out you lads. ** stop flirting with the boys. Girl is in a state red, flustered, inexperienced and gabbling nervously. Assault?? It was then and it is now, the only thing is now those lads would have been hauled to the headmasters office and dealt with. Back then it was just lads being lads... Should they have been done for assualt put on some register, no, but they sure as hell should have been made to realise it was unacceptable. The girl should she have been helped and not made to feel she was asking for it?? Hell YES... I wonder who it is that remembers it all...


*In my opinion these guys should have been stood in front of the whole school at assembly time and shamed.Had this been done i;m darn sure they would not have done it again.*


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## AlexTurley (Oct 30, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *In my opinion these guys should have been stood in front of the whole school at assembly time and shamed.Had this been done i;m darn sure they would not have done it again.*


but we no how much teenagers and people talk in schools 
Do u think the person who had this done to her would of wanted to be further embarrased by it all


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> Your comment reminded me of a few comments others made about the happenings with JS. A few commented as you appear to say that back then it happened and was often brushed off...some of the girls egged these people on some would say. One thing bothered me. What about the children in hospital that have reported abuse....surely they wouldn't have been leading anyone on? And the abuser would have been well aware of their ages being that they were on childrens wards.
> There is brushing off a quick grope and there is brushing off child sex offences?
> As you say things were different back then.


*I think you'll find Janice was not referring to JS but others such as the latest to be arrested for what was against adults not children. And the so called offence HE says was nothing more than putting his arm round the ladies (and he may have kissed them if i remember correctly). 
So no, not the same as children or people in hospitals, etc*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

AlexTurley said:


> but we no how much teenagers and people talk in schools
> Do u think the person who had this done to her would of wanted to be further embarrased by it all


*Well i would sooner it be dealt with sooner than later. Why choose to go to court where it would all be in the news and public eye?*


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I hear Noel Edmonds has been arrested for Cardigan abuse....


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I think you'll find Janice was not referring to JS but others such as the latest to be arrested for what was against adults not children. And the so called offence HE says was nothing more than putting his arm round the ladies (and he may have kissed them if i remember correctly).
> So no, not the same as children or people in hospitals, etc*


Oh I see, thanks for clarifying. TBH I haven't really read about the latest allegations too much but if it was only as you say, then no I wouldn't class that as sexual assault.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

AlexTurley said:


> but we no how much teenagers and people talk in schools Do u think the person who had this done to her would of wanted to be further embarrased by it all


 The person is me and no I would have died from embarrassment BUT I should have been protected... The boys should have been given a lecture, their Mothers should have been told in order for them to be better informed and the teacher should have done something about it.. No one has ever been allowed to treat me the same way again!


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Whilst i agree "true" victims need to be protected i personally think the law can accuse almost anyone of sexual assault.*


Yep they can. Hubby (police officer) was called to a 'sexual assault' last night. Turns out a group of teens were together and one boy, being an idiot trying to show off, slapped the bum of the girl. In todays laws thats constitutes sexual assault. Hubby has to pursue (although doesnt think it was sexual assault).

We are being a bit stupid these days and PC has gone too far. People need to use common sense.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well sorry, but like it or not times have changed and imo not for the better.I'm 62 now but can still remember being young.
> And where did i state it was ok for women to be treated like meat?
> What i will say is this, if women are prepared to stand up in court to complain, then why not nip the problem i the bud.
> Now this might not be popular with some, but hello this is the REAL world. Get a grip not a bloody gripe.*


I can't believe this, but for the first time ever i have to agree with Janice!

People are too sensitive these days and whilst i agree, some people go too far, most is harmless flirting.

I have worked in bars, with sailors, plus many other jobs. Men ogle, so do women (went to see the new twilight and the amount of women - grown women - who screamed every time taylor lautner took his top off was stupid). Its eay enough to keep boobs covered in a bar job. If someone takes it a step too far, you just say something to them.

And this is also coming from someone who put someone in prison for rape, so i do understand both sides here.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Pinning someone against a wall by the throat and shoving your hands down their trousers would "seem" like sexual assault. HOWEVER, if you are only 14 and your attacker is the same age the police treat it as a boy getting "a bit carried away", and after all he did say sorry 

The things that are brushed off can completely **** a persons mind for a long time so please think before acting!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

I am quite easily offended when it comes to people/men being over familiar! I dont like touchy feely stuff and if a male slapped my backside or similar I would personally class it as sexual assault in the sense that I didnt encourage/want it. However would i report it to the police as that? No, I think they have much more important things to deal with, its far to minor to take up their time. BUT had it happened in the work place for example I would be taking it to management expecting action.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Starlite said:


> Pinning someone against a wall by the throat and shoving your hands down their trousers would "seem" like sexual assault. HOWEVER, if you are only 14 and your attacker is the same age the police treat it as a boy getting "a bit carried away", and after all he did say sorry
> 
> The things that are brushed off can completely **** a persons mind for a long time so please think before acting!


How long ago did that happen?


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Starlite said:


> Pinning someone against a wall by the throat and shoving your hands down their trousers would "seem" like sexual assault. HOWEVER, if you are only 14 and your attacker is the same age the police treat it as a boy getting "a bit carried away", and after all he did say sorry
> 
> The things that are brushed off can completely **** a persons mind for a long time so please think before acting!


So that is TWO of us .... still harmless or assault?


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## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

Firstly as someone who at the age of 14 was assaulted and who reported this to the Police I cannot condone any sort anyone regardless of age, era or belief.

however

I knew someone who was sentenced for assault 40 years after the incident. He had touched a girls bum and made suggestive comments 40 years later after attending jury service on a similar case she decided she wanted justice. Personally I do not agree with complaints being made so long after an incident, there is no evidence and accounts can be fabricated over years. I was patted on the bum by a guy when I was younger and didnt think anything of it however having worked with children and brownies if I saw a guy doing that to a youngster now I would be disgusted and would report it. Janice is right times have changed.

I do think however that it is those innocent people who suffer most. those who work with children on a voluntary basis are so afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing children do not get the same opportunities they used to. if a child falls over in the park I am cautious about getting involved in case they cry abuse. I know of many people who feel the same.

I think as with all things common sense must prevail


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## CoolDog (Oct 24, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but i think it IS the pc brigade..The news of late and people being mentioned are all being classed as pedo's. When in actually fact, if you go back to " the day" it was nothing of the sort.*


I'm taking that when you say "pedo", you mean a pedophile, as in "an adult who molests children"? If so, "back in the day" a lot these cases weren't reported to police, because children were afraid of telling anyone, and to top that off, any child who has been molestated by an adult at that time, did not trust adults. Nowadays, children have been taught that when something like this happens, go to another adult such as a teacher, policeman/policewoman, and report it right away.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

x PIXIE x said:


> Firstly as someone who at the age of 14 was assaulted and who reported this to the Police I cannot condone any sort anyone regardless of age, era or belief.
> 
> however
> 
> ...


Ill admit the same I stay away from kids unless I know them personally. I would be terrified if someone screamed abuse at me.

We do throw banter around at work, and its all in good fun. Id hope if anyone didnt like theyd come to me and say so and I would stop. I had a few comments thrown at me about my sexuality that I felt got taken beyond the point. I spoke to the people involved and received apologizes and its not been brought up since.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> So that is TWO of us .... still harmless or assault?


Its assault, of course it is. However the effect on the "victim" (hate that term) may be negligible or serious. Whichever it is, the "attacker" risks having allegations made against them.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CoolDog said:


> I'm taking that when you say "pedo", you mean a pedophile, as in "an adult who molests children"? If so, "back in the day" a lot these cases weren't reported to police, because children were afraid of telling anyone, and to top that off, any child who has been molestated by an adult at that time, did not trust adults. Nowadays, children have been taught that when something like this happens, go to another adult such as a teacher, policeman/policewoman, and report it right away.


*As i've already said, i am NOT talking about adults that molest children.
I'm talking more about things like a slap on ya bum, ect.
There is a big difference.*


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *As i've already said, i am NOT talking about adults that molest children.
> I'm talking more about things like a slap on ya bum, ect.
> There is a big difference.*


That rather depends on whether the magistrate agrees!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sussexplumber said:


> That rather depends on whether the magistrate agrees!


*If a magistrate can't tell the difference between a child molester and some who gives a woman a slap on the bum, then they shouldn't be in that job.*


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> That rather depends on whether the magistrate agrees!


So you've had a few too many to drink, mis-judge the signals from someone and maybe grab their bum - should you be done for sexual assault?

Yes there are some men who are doing it as a form of assault, but most people don't. They get caught up in the moment, misread things etc.

For me, sexual assault is all based on the intentions behind it. I have worked somewhere where the banter was ongoing and one guy pinned me to a fridge and grabbed my chest. I complained to a manager and it was dealt with, but even if it hadnt I wouldn't have gone to the police. He got carried away and it was a one off.

Had he put his hand up my top/skirt then yes, that deserves a police caution. Anything that results in something being inserted somewhere/genitals being touched then (IMO) deserves prosecution - and that should apply to women too.


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## ginge2804 (Nov 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Flirting, whatever your age ( apart from small children ), is just banter. The problem today is that people think flirting with someone is wanting something more.*





JANICE199 said:


> *Without sounding harsh, surely you would know that men will always look at womens boobs. I have worked in garages and had to deal with all kinds of men.But their banter imho was part of the job.Half the time its just teasing.
> By the way, i would love to have been a barmaid.*


Flirting is not 'just banter' if it makes you feel uncomfortable!
Just because a women has boobs, doesn't mean she has to put up with 'banter' left right and centre if it makes her feel uncomfortable.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

ginge2804 said:


> Flirting is not 'just banter' if it makes you feel uncomfortable!
> Just because a women has boobs, doesn't mean she has to put up with 'banter' left right and centre if it makes her feel uncomfortable.


If the banter is from someone goodlooking its amazing the women who suddenly feel comfortable with it. Besides, it takes nothing to say "i dont feel comfortable with this".


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *If a magistrate can't tell the difference between a child molester and some who gives a woman a slap on the bum, then they shouldn't be in that job.*


I think magistrates are unpaid.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

WelshOneEmma said:


> If the banter is from someone goodlooking its amazing the women who suddenly feel comfortable with it. Besides, it takes nothing to say "i dont feel comfortable with this".


Actually it does, or it definitely might do.

That so depends on the situation and who you are speaking to, the culture within the (club/bar/wherever) and whether you will be believed and receive back up/support. Also has it happened before? Are there cameras to record incidents and door staff to deal with problem customers? If it was your first night working somewhere, are you likely to complain?

There are quite a few things to take into account.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> That rather depends on whether the magistrate agrees!


Don't forget the judge who makes the final rulings and he's got a book to refer to for sexual terms, rulings and the convictions to apply.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

I once let it slip to a young lady that amongst my friends I was one of those poor guys that got nominated to chat-up the ugly bird. She slapped me. 

Sexual assault?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> I once let it slip to a young lady that amongst my friends I was one of those poor guys that got nominated to chat-up the ugly bird. She slapped me.
> 
> Sexual assault?


No just behaving like a pig.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Cromford said:


> I once let it slip to a young lady that amongst my friends I was one of those poor guys that got nominated to chat-up the ugly bird. She slapped me.
> 
> Sexual assault?


Nope, just common assault, although could possibly be deemed that you aggravated the situation.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> I think magistrates are unpaid.


they can claim expenses my brother in law is one who just happened to want JP after his name


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm not convinced that anyone is insensitive enough to be unable to tell whether their behaviour is welcome or not. We don't really need to be told.

Each individual is going to differ in what they find acceptable or amusing but we all can tell when someone is feeling uncomfortable. If the behaviour continues at this point it becomes assult, harrassment etc.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> How long ago did that happen?


almost 10yrs ago now. He was made to aplologise and the police said they werent taking it further. I had to sit behind this boy in registration for 8mths after, i was sick every morning before going in.
I dont like police, but i have vaild reasons.

Also, would you call a 34yr old police officer asking teenage girls for their phone numbers, slapping their bums and asking for a wee kiss sexual assault? the police dont, they look after their own.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I think there needs to be a limit on it as well. Some men do think that when you wear certain clothes or have a certain job (in this case I was working in a pub) that you're looking for something. The man that 'flirted' with me frequently tried to look down my top, constantly leered at me and patronised me by telling me I was a 'clever girl' to go to uni. To me, his leering and trying to look down my top was a form of sexual assault and it made me feel horrible, like I wanted to have a shower. I told one of the security guys and, despite being a hard cookie, I spent the next half hour crying because I felt so violated.
> 
> I have no problem with flirting but I think people need to realise what's appropriate and what's not.


Inappropriate behaviour quite probably, but I am sorry I don't feel some old lech gawping down your top is sexual assault - if it was a young good looking chap who you fancied doing exactly the same would you still say it was sexual assault? Suppose some old ugly chap gazes at your face, possibly just thinking what a pretty girl, yes it may make you feel uncomfortable but he wouldn't have assaulted you.



Sussexplumber said:


> Well I`m not pc and I think thats pushing it. I certainly wouldn`t appreciate it! He may call everyone "my angel" but in the confines of a driving school car with just two people there, it is way too familiar. If accused, his defence would be "he calls everyone that" but that just isn`t on, not in that close environment, with the power balance very one sided.


Accused of what saying my angel - how long has that been an offence



Lavenderb said:


> I'm overweight, I walk with a stick and I still get men staring at my boobs cos they wobble a lot lol.....TBH I'm glad of a quick look from a man in my state :lol:
> Nothing wrong with flirting and I do it all the time. It's when you are touched in an inapropriate way that constitutes sexual assault in my book.


I agree it cannot be sexual assault without touching - and even then you do worry that it won't be long before someone is accused of sexual assault for shaking someones hand!


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> I agree it cannot be sexual assault without touching - and even then you do worry that it won't be long before someone is accused of sexual assault for shaking someones hand!


So going to work doing your job, having men say loud enough for you to hear,I would like to give that one a good seeing to, etc etc if you wear a modest skirt, cor look at the legs on that, fancy them as a scarf mate, every day, every time you walk past is OK? Because they do not touch you!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

_Sexual assault can be committed by both
men and women against either a man or a
woman.
An offender is guilty of this offence if:
l The offender intentionally touches the
victim AND
l The touching is sexual (see above)
AND
l The victim does not consent to the
touching AND
l The offender does not reasonably
believe that the victim consents_
that last line gets to me. ANYONE after doing Anything can say 'she was asking for it' and that shouldnt ever make it right. if that is in the legislation then i disagree with it.

i do think pc has gone a bit mad, but we do need new more through laws. as for 'protecting children in school' its stupid most of the time. my mum is a special needs classroom assistant; she was assigned to a girl a few years back who, along with other issues, had cerebral palsy. now part of my mums job was to help her clean up after being to the toilet, and changing herself at 'that time of the month' (the girl was 17/18) yet if my mum was on the playground and a 7yr old fell over and started crying, mum isn't allowed to as much as put a hand on their shoulder to comfort them! same as another kid who has broken a teachers ribs and anothers nose when having a rage fit, yet they are not allowed to restrain him properly because its 'indecent assult'.
(sorry, got slightly off topic)

i have panic attacks and they were Very bad a few years back when i was 16ish. when overly stressed i would faint and awaken to a p.a... one time when this happened a teacher hugged me to calm me down; and the stupid thing- he could have been arrested for it! 



Starlite said:


> almost 10yrs ago now. He was made to aplologise and the police said they werent taking it further. I had to sit behind this boy in registration for 8mths after, i was sick every morning before going in.
> I dont like police, but i have vaild reasons.


thats... i dont even have words tbh; i couldnt have went back, so your more [email protected] than me for that. but the principal should have stepped in if the police would not- i've seen that have to happen a few times 



Starlite said:


> Also, would you call a 34yr old police officer asking teenage girls for their phone numbers, slapping their bums and asking for a wee kiss sexual assault? the police dont, they look after their own.


thankfully, that isnt necessarily true. i know of a few cases when it has been other officers reporting their collegues for indecent behavior- to kids and adults (one being a drunk young woman when an officer thought he could 'sneak a cheeky feel' 

the other thing is though, many officers if they believe their collegue to be 101% innocent will try and brush the allegation away, but if that is the case you head to the station a little down the road and let their department look into it unbiased by personal opinion...


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> So going to work doing your job, having men say loud enough for you to hear,I would like to give that one a good seeing to, etc etc if you wear a modest skirt, cor look at the legs on that, fancy them as a scarf mate, every day, every time you walk past is OK? Because they do not touch you!


if it continues after telling them to back off, its not ok... but if the woman hasn't told them that... gets a bit fussy doesn't it?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> So going to work doing your job, having men say loud enough for you to hear,I would like to give that one a good seeing to, etc etc if you wear a modest skirt, cor look at the legs on that, fancy them as a scarf mate, *every day, every time you walk past is OK?* Because they do not touch you!


Noticed my previous attempt to inject some self-deprecating humour went down like a lead balloon, but I can see now this is no joking matter for some.

I'll try to be serious this time. If you are really suggesting this happens to you "every day and every time" you walk past men in your workplace, then you need to complain to your boss & HR department.

Somehow I suspect you are simply exaggerating in a way that generalises negatively against men. If so, I think it fair to ask why you think that is a reasonable thing to do? If not, why don't you put a halt to it?


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Noticed my previous attempt to inject some self-deprecating humour went down like a lead balloon, but I can see now this is no joking matter for some.
> 
> I'll try to be serious this time. If you are really suggesting this happens to you "every day and every time" you walk past men in your workplace, then you need to complain to your boss & HR department.
> 
> *Somehow I suspect you are simply exaggerating in a way that generalises negatively against men. If so, I think it fair to ask why you think that is a reasonable thing to do? If not, why don't you put a halt to it?*


And you would suspect that why? 

What a stupid and totally offensive thing to say.

By the way, when you are a young girl just starting off in a new job, and you walk past groups of men saying things like that its not that easy 'to put a halt to it'.

You feel embarrassed and humiliated, you question yourself over whether you are over re-acting, and you wonder if there is something you yourself are doing to encourage them.

You start to lose your sense of self-worth, and just hope you can get through the day without attracting any kind of attention from anyone.

In fact you feel exactly the same as if you were being bullied at school.

Next time you think women are 'simply exaggerating' to get a cheap shot in at men in general, put your brain in gear and maybe think about what you are saying


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I once let it slip to a young lady that amongst my friends I was one of those poor guys that got *nominated to chat-up the ugly bird*. She slapped me.
> 
> Sexual assault?


I know a place where men *PAY* to get slapped....

I didnt know "Dragon slaying" was so awful... 10 blokes, each put a tenner in the pot, lol......


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Noticed my previous attempt to inject some self-deprecating humour went down like a lead balloon, but I can see now this is no joking matter for some.
> 
> I'll try to be serious this time. If you are really suggesting this happens to you "every day and every time" you walk past men in your workplace, then you need to complain to your boss & HR department.
> 
> *Somehow I suspect you are simply exaggerating in a way that generalises negatively against men. If so, I think it fair to ask why you think that is a reasonable thing to do? If not, why don't you put a halt to it?*


Sadly, as much as you may think its an exaggeration, this genuinely does happen to some people.

In my case, which wasnt this bad, but had elements of it, it took ALOT of courage to stand up to more senior colleagues to tell them "off, and every time, I was scared that I was going to be a social pariah as a consequence. The whole situation destroyed my self esteem, I started wearing baggy jeans and jumpers to work to avoid attention and stopped socialising with other colleagues because of the crap I would get as a result - I didnt really need them to make me a social pariah as I did it to myself in the end!


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

As a minibus driver having taken parties of women out on hen does and parties I think its no wonder things go wrong, short skirts and cocktails are a bad combination


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> As a minibus driver having taken parties of women out on hen does and parties I think its no wonder things go wrong, short skirts and cocktails are a bad combination


So if I go out in a short skirt and drink cocktails its OK to sexually assault me is it?

Another stupid comment


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

And you would suspect that why? 

*I suspect that because,in this day and age, I do not believe such behaviour would be tolerated in the workplace*

What a stupid and totally offensive thing to say.

By the way, when you are a young girl just starting off in a new job, and you walk past groups of men saying things like that its not that easy 'to put a halt to it'. *Utter nonsense. I have a daughter in her early 20's and I can assure you neither she or any of her friends would use such a lame excuse as this, they would not hesitate to report it, and quite rightly too*
You feel embarrassed and humiliated, you question yourself over whether you are over re-acting, and you wonder if there is something you yourself are doing to encourage them.

You start to lose your sense of self-worth, and just hope you can get through the day without attracting any kind of attention from anyone.

In fact you feel exactly the same as if you were being bullied at school. *And you should respond in exactly the same way, by reporting it. Your reasons for not doing so are simply excuses*

Next time you think women are 'simply exaggerating' to get a cheap shot in at men in general, put your brain in gear and maybe think about what you are saying  *I have not yet seen the poster of the remark deny that it was a generalisation, but if you had taken the trouble to read my post you would have noticed that I in fact acknowledged that it could be true, but if so I would like to understand why the matter has not been reported*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> So if I go out in a short skirt and drink cocktails its OK to sexually assault me is it?
> 
> Another stupid comment


No it isn't OK. On the other hand I think you need to acknowledge the possibility that drink can lead to questionable judgement and a lowering of inhibitions. It is not unheard of for men to be wrongly accused of a serious criminal offence under such circumstances.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> And you would suspect that why?
> 
> *I suspect that because,in this day and age, I do not believe such behaviour would be tolerated in the workplace*
> 
> ...


I had typed a reply for this post, but I've deleted it because you are not worth getting myself banned for.

Have a nice life in your bubble, but you should maybe remember there are a lot of things daughters _don't_ tell their dads, whatever you want to believe.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Cromford said:


> By the way, when you are a young girl just starting off in a new job, and you walk past groups of men saying things like that its not that easy 'to put a halt to it'. *Utter nonsense. I have a daughter in her early 20's*


didn't want to get involved here but having a daughter doesn't qualify you to understand all women. it isn't 'utter nonsense' at all, some suffer from confidence issues or anxiety and can't speak up, even if they'd like to. your attitude is horrible.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> *I had typed a reply for this post, but I've deleted it because you are not worth getting myself banned for.*


Which would suggest it was a rather emotional and ill-judged response.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

MCWillow said:


> So if I go out in a short skirt and drink cocktails its OK to sexually assault me is it?
> 
> Another stupid comment


No, but let's be honest here - how many young girls do you see these days in tiny outfits, so drunk they are barely awake. They put themselves in dangerous situations which is just stupid.

There is no justification for a sexual assault but we all need to make sure we protect ourselves.

That's like messing around with a chainsaw and then wondering why it cuts you and finding someone to blame. We all have to take responsibility for our actions and how others may interpret things, rightly or wrongly.

Another situation for you - girl gets drunk and sleeps with someone. Next day embarrassed about it, cries rape/sexual assault as she was drunk - should she not take some responsibility for this? You class that as assault?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> didn't want to get involved here but having a daughter doesn't qualify you to understand all women. it isn't 'utter nonsense' at all, some suffer from confidence issues or anxiety and can't speak up, even if they'd like to. your attitude is horrible.


No. My attitude would be "horrible" if I was in the habit of making crude sexually abusive remarks to young women in the workplace. I don't and I do not know any men that do.

I find the attitude that generalises all men as predatory lechers kinda offensive as it happens.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I find the attitude that generalises all men as predatory lechers kinda offensive as it happens.


then you'll notice that was my first post on this topic and i don't think that way of men at all. however it being said that those who are too scared to speak up are making 'lame excuses' i find offensive and often men with that kind of attitude create more problems. just because your daughter would speak out doesn't mean all women should be able to and saying so is damaging.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

over and out, i'm not a member of a pet forum to discuss sensitive issues like this, just thought you should know it's not as black and white as you're making out.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> No. My attitude would be "horrible" if I was in the habit of making crude sexually abusive remarks to young women in the workplace. I don't and I do not know any men that do.
> 
> I find the attitude that generalises all men as predatory lechers kinda offensive as it happens.


1: I dont think ANYONE has said its all men. Just acknowledgement that some men do.

2: Trust me when i say it DOES happen, and I would say a majority of people would go through life not seeing it. But this does not mean it doesnt happen. I would happily explain this to you via PM, but not on an open forum, so if you would like to know examples I would happily share.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> then you'll notice that was my first post on this topic and i don't think that way of men at all. however it being said that those who are too scared to speak up are making 'lame excuses' i find offensive and often men with that kind of attitude create more problems. just because your daughter would speak out* doesn't mean all women should be able* to and saying so is damaging.


All women SHOULD be able to. All women SHOULD feel that the support network is there to help them through the consequences afterwards. Sadly this is not the case and there are women who feel they cant stand up and speak out


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> All women SHOULD be able to. All women SHOULD feel that the support network is there to help them through the consequences afterwards. Sadly this is not the case and there are women who feel they cant stand up and speak out


that's what i meant lol.. read it in a different tone of voice, like 'should be able to' from the POV of a man saying that a woman who doesn't speak up is 'making excuses'.
i should have phrased it better though!
anyway i really am going now.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> So if I go out in a short skirt and drink cocktails its OK to sexually assault me is it?


Not at all, BUT given so many drunk BLOKES are around the signs get blurred, theye been drinking, the women have been drinking......bingo....


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> *All women SHOULD be able to.* All women SHOULD feel that the support network is there to help them through the consequences afterwards. Sadly this is not the case and there are women who feel they cant stand up and speak out


I completely agree with this contention.

What I don't relate to is your claim that there is no "support network" or the suggestion that there are "consequences" for the victim. Remember the context of these particular remarks is work place harassment. As far as I'm aware the type of harassment inferred to be commonplace earlier in this thread, is grounds for instant dismissal in the vast majority of UK workplaces. The "consequences" would quite rightly be for those doing the harassment, not their victims.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Noticed my previous attempt to inject some self-deprecating humour went down like a lead balloon, but I can see now this is no joking matter for some.
> 
> I'll try to be serious this time. If you are really suggesting this happens to you "every day and every time" you walk past men in your workplace, then you need to complain to your boss & HR department.
> 
> Somehow I suspect you are simply exaggerating in a way that generalises negatively against men. If so, I think it fair to ask why you think that is a reasonable thing to do? If not, why don't you put a halt to it?


Hmmm tally ho here we go...now to whom am I addressing myself this time? Is it the drag queen writerc orrrrr oh yes the legal bullshitter doggie bag or his buddy taken from us the 24/7 attack mode.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Hmmm tally ho here we go...now to whom am I addressing myself this time? Is it the drag queen writerc orrrrr oh yes the legal bullshitter doggie bag or his buddy taken from us the 24/7 attack mode.


Is a translation available?


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

ki;1062444103]
thats... i dont even have words tbh; i couldnt have went back, so your more [email protected] than me for that. but the principal should have stepped in if the police would not- i've seen that have to happen a few times 

thankfully, that isnt necessarily true. i know of a few cases when it has been other officers reporting their collegues for indecent behavior- to kids and adults (one being a drunk young woman when an officer thought he could 'sneak a cheeky feel' 

the other thing is though, many officers if they believe their collegue to be 101% innocent will try and brush the allegation away, but if that is the case you head to the station a little down the road and let their department look into it unbiased by personal opinion...[/QUOTE]

Im sick of the "boys will be boys" attitude. Im always on the ball now with guys. I can have a chat and a laugh but do not touch me!

As for the police the 4 of them STILL drive about the schemes in the riot van doing the same thing to teenage girls despite being reported. When we told the police officers to sod off they werent getting nothing from us they got nasty. We were called cows, leg openers, threw into the van and taken to the police station for vandalism and gangfighting, we were doing neither! Scum.



Colliebarmy said:


> Not at all, BUT given so many drunk BLOKES are around the signs get blurred, theye been drinking, the women have been drinking......bingo....


aye she is half cut with a short dress on, she wont be able to say no so go for it. What ARE these women thinking about, dressing nicely and drinking, who unchained them from the kitchen sink?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Starlite said:


> ki;1062444103]
> aye she is half cut with a short dress on, she wont be able to say no so go for it. What ARE these women thinking about, dressing nicely and drinking, who unchained them from the kitchen sink?


Its beyond dressing nice though isnt it? its like a butchers window some nights with the meat on display, i dont condone any assault, i just wish some would wise up, we are all responsible for our own safety, and afterwards is too late

mind you, ive seen some awful sights.... :crying:


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I completely agree with this contention.
> 
> What I don't relate to is your claim that there is no "support network" or the suggestion that there are "consequences" for the victim. Remember the context of these particular remarks is work place harassment. As far as I'm aware the type of harassment inferred to be commonplace earlier in this thread, is grounds for instant dismissal in the vast majority of UK workplaces. The "consequences" would quite rightly be for those doing the harassment, not their victims.


not professional consequences, but consequences from other colleagues in the environment. You obviously cannot see the bigger picture on this, or refuse to acknowledge life is not clear cut and perfect.

If you are a new girl, and get one of their "mates" in trouble for inappropriate behaviour, then you will not be popular - as I previously said, it can make you a social pariah. Not in all work places, but for me, as 1 girl in a department of men who had worked together for 20 yrs.... there were consequences in taking action, and they made life very unpleasant. And the company have towed the line in terms of the offender, but then just left me to it to suffer a miserable worklife until I found my own route out (I had to give up the tools and transfer out into a different role and department because when it came to it I had 2 people out of all of them who would still talk to me)

You dont relate to it because you have never experienced it.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Id also like to add that there are some gents I have worked with who were brilliant. I have had the pleasure of learning the ropes from my first mentor who was a lovely guy, and my final one, who whilst being a bit of a wide boy, was also the type of guy I would trust my life with and would do anything for you - and those people did there bit to defend me when I really needed it. And a couple of my fellow apprentices during training were the same, but these were the people who bothered to get to know me for me, not just me as "the girl". So it wasnt all bad!


I enjoyed my job, and regret the way it went, essentially it cost me a job I loved doing. THAT was the consequence to me as the victim. So dont sit behind your keyboard having experienced nothing of the sort and tell us that you dont buy that there are costs to the victim. Its humiliating and its isolating

Additionally, I think I have been clear throughout that this will not ALWAYS be the case. Some companies are better than others, and work environments will vary. My personal one meant that there were notable consequences, and I know I am not alone in this. That is not to say it is always that way - but ALL women (And men!) should feel they are able to comfortably make a stand without sufferig for it. #idealworld?


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> Don't forget the judge who makes the final rulings and he's got a book to refer to for sexual terms, rulings and the convictions to apply.


Forgive me if I`m getting mixed up but arent we talking about magistrates courts and (only with the judge) crown courts? Magistrates courts I believe, have magistrates, not judges. Sorry to diverge!


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> Forgive me if I`m getting mixed up but arent we talking about magistrates courts and (only with the judge) crown courts? Magistrates courts I believe, have magistrates, not judges. Sorry to diverge!


 Most of the ones I've read have gone to Crown Court. So I can't comment on magistrates courts.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

ameliajane said:


> I'm not convinced that anyone is insensitive enough to be unable to tell whether their behaviour is welcome or not. We don't really need to be told.
> 
> Each individual is going to differ in what they find acceptable or amusing but we all can tell when someone is feeling uncomfortable. If the behaviour continues at this point it becomes assult, harrassment etc.


I`m going to beg to differ there! But its not necessarily a case of being insensitive... intoxicated people can be a little clumsy socially too! Let me tell you, sometimes men do need to be told to back off. Ever worked in a nightclub or pub? And yes a man may think a woman is not welcoming his attention but to him, a little more effort may win her over... Yes men do think that way sometimes!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> not professional consequences, but consequences from other colleagues in the environment. You obviously cannot see the bigger picture on this, or refuse to acknowledge life is not clear cut and perfect.
> 
> If you are a new girl, and get one of their "mates" in trouble for inappropriate behaviour, then you will not be popular - as I previously said, it can make you a social pariah. Not in all work places, but for me, as 1 girl in a department of men who had worked together for 20 yrs.... there were consequences in taking action, and they made life very unpleasant. And the company have towed the line in terms of the offender, but then just left me to it to suffer a miserable worklife until I found my own route out (I had to give up the tools and transfer out into a different role and department because when it came to it I had 2 people out of all of them who would still talk to me)
> 
> You dont relate to it because you have never experienced it.


The consequences for other colleagues who continue the harassment or condone it should be the same as the perpetrator. Instant dismissal.

In fact, you hint that your company were very responsible and sacked the offender once you had reported him. Am I reading between the lines properly?
If you felt that the follow-up was inadequate did you bother to go back and discuss this with your boss or HR team? I strongly suspect they will have instructed the manager or managers of your department to look out for and stamp on any future occurrences, after all their reputation as an employer is at risk and if you were subject to further abuse they could easily find themselves before a tribunal defending a case of constructive dismissal. Assuming I am right about their response, what else do you think they could have or should have done? Don't you think it would be fair if they had an expectation of you to follow-up too if you were subjected to bullying?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> The consequences for other colleagues who continue the harassment or condone it should be the same as the perpetrator. Instant dismissal.
> 
> In fact, you hint that your company were very responsible and sacked the offender once you had reported him. Am I reading between the lines properly?
> If you felt that the follow-up was inadequate did you bother to go back and discuss this with your boss or HR team? I strongly suspect they will have instructed the manager or managers of your department to look out for and stamp on any future occurrences, after all their reputation as an employer is at risk and if you were subject to further abuse they could easily find themselves before a tribunal defending a case of constructive dismissal. Assuming I am right about their response, what else do you think they could have or should have done? Don't you think it would be fair if they had an expectation of you to follow-up too if you were subjected to bullying?


No he wasnt fired but he was dealt with

I went back continually to complain about my treatment ending with "deal with it, or you will lose me". This included during my mid year and annual reviews so I could ensure it was documented as I had an idea it wasnt being documented at all. They refused to deal with it and kept saying "we will talk to him" and lost me to the first internal position that came up that I could do. The senior manager that was told I would walk if they didnt even told me about it, spoke to the hiring manager and basically got me the job just to avoid the political mess.

Since then, the ringleader set up "business" with my old senior manager (the site closed) and he (manager) since contacted me to apologise as he didnt believe me for the sh*t i put up with, but he has seen his poor treatment of women first hand now they work so close.

Basically, they were never going to fire 12 out of 15 electricians for bullying. And the ringleader already had an HR record for bullying another colleague, who like me took the "leave" option (that was just out and out bullying, not sexual harrassment, they were just cruel to the poor man)

Just accept life is not perfect, not clear cut. Its very grey in places.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> No he wasnt fired but he was dealt with
> 
> I went back continually to complain about my treatment ending with "deal with it, or you will lose me". This included during my mid year and annual reviews so I could ensure it was documented as I had an idea it wasnt being documented at all. They refused to deal with it and kept saying "we will talk to him" and lost me. End of story.
> 
> Since then, the ringleader set up "business" with my old senior manager (the site closed) and he since contacted me to apologise as he didnt believe me for the sh*t i put up with, but he has seen his poor treatment of women first hand now they work so close.


Sorry, but I'm not sure what your saying here. How was he 'dealt with'? Why didn't you take legal advice in relation to your treatment? You would almost certainly have had a case for constructive dismissal if they consistently ignored or failed to act on your complaints. It sounds like this was a fairly small company and in that case I can envisage that their HR policies were not particularly robust.

It sounds as if you did complain and that you tried to do that formally and were let down by the company. My concern is that others finding themselves in a similar situation may revert to an attitude I would describe as "knowing their rights but not knowing their responsibilities" and simply do not report the incident. That is unfair to the responsible employers and it is unfair to others that may also be subject to the bullying or harassment.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Starlite said:


> ki;1062444103]
> thats... i dont even have words tbh; i couldnt have went back, so your more [email protected] than me for that. but the principal should have stepped in if the police would not- i've seen that have to happen a few times
> 
> thankfully, that isnt necessarily true. i know of a few cases when it has been other officers reporting their collegues for indecent behavior- to kids and adults (one being a drunk young woman when an officer thought he could 'sneak a cheeky feel'
> ...


_Im sick of the "boys will be boys" attitude._ Im always on the ball now with guys. I can have a chat and a laugh but do not touch me!

As for the police the 4 of them STILL drive about the schemes in the riot van doing the same thing to teenage girls despite being reported. When we told the police officers to sod off they werent getting nothing from us they got nasty. We were called cows, leg openers, threw into the van and taken to the police station for vandalism and gangfighting, we were doing neither! Scum.

aye she is half cut with a short dress on, she wont be able to say no so go for it. What ARE these women thinking about, dressing nicely and drinking, who unchained them from the kitchen sink?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I'm very tired and maybe missing something, but is this all aimed at me?
Have you ever went to another police department about it? Or an ombudsmen?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And as for girls dressing stupidly- I'm all for a good short dress on a night out, but if you don't want it looked at or commented on then put it away under trousers or a sweater... Surely that's common sense? And if your gonna go out and get sh$tfaced, you do need to keep your wits about, or have an almost sober friend with...
Honestly, the biggest issue these days seems to be a countrywide epidemic of lack of common sense!
But girls crying rape after a night of bad judgment (and yes, it does happen) really angers me- there is nothing you can do that would make you any worse as a human than that.

People are not humane as a whole- are we only noticing this now?


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Grumpy Goby .... Keep your head held high girl, It's a tough sh!!te world out there in engineering... I speak through experience, not of being an apprentice but of being the wife of a man who promoted female recognition within a Male dominated Shipbuilding industry.Now as for comments of report it , do this ,do that , i will tell you now it does'nt work when the MD is the biggest culprit on this earth , nor does getting Legal Representation help , when they, the perpetrators of this behaviour are totally backed up by " The Company" ..... I've seen it dozens of times .... Harrass the women to death.,accept it , or lose your job! Those that succumbed to his advances eventually still lost their jobs ..... What happened to him well eventually he was "moved on" as always , but unlike the women HE NEVER LOST THE COMPANIES RESPECT OR ADMIRATION .... OR HIS JOB,SALARY , PENSION ETC .... Sorry does'nt bode well with me ,leaves a bad taste in my mouth :mad2:


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

There are people with no boundaries or respect. Flirting is alright but touching someone isn't. Would you hug a complete stranger? I don't care how a person dresses, it isn't an excuse.

*I haven't read the entire thread*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tincan said:


> Grumpy Goby .... Keep your head held high girl, It's a tough sh!!te world out there in engineering... I speak through experience, not of being an apprentice but of being the wife of a man who promoted female recognition within a Male dominated Shipbuilding industry.Now as for comments of report it , do this ,do that , i will tell you now it does'nt work when the MD is the biggest culprit on this earth , nor does getting Legal Representation help , when they, the perpetrators of this behaviour are totally backed up by " The Company" ..... I've seen it dozens of times .... Harrass the women to death or lose your job! Those that succumbed to his advances eventually still lost their jobs ..... What happened to him well eventually he was "moved on" as always , but unlike the women HE NEVER LOST THE COMPANIES RESPECT OR ADMIRATION .... OR HIS JOB,SALARY , PENSION ETC .... Sorry does'nt bode well with me ,leaves a bad taste in my mouth :mad2:


Hysteria doesn't help.

Your not seriously suggesting that some companies encourage harassment to the point of sacking men that don't comply with this'instruction', are you? I mean you have seen it with your own eyes "dozens of times"? REALLY? Dozens of times yet never a witness to corroborate your claims?

I suppose it never crosses your mind that there may be cases when the allegations are baseless or actions/comments are misconstrued. Under those circumstances it would wrong to expect the company not to support the accused. Innocent until proven guilty is a pretty good principle.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Hysteria doesn't help.
> 
> Your not seriously suggesting that some companies encourage harassment to the point of sacking men that don't comply with this'instruction', are you? I mean you have seen it with your own eyes "dozens of times"? REALLY? Dozens of times yet never a witness to corroborate your claims?
> 
> I suppose it never crosses your mind that there may be cases when the allegations are baseless or actions/comments are misconstrued. Under those circumstances it would wrong to expect the company not to support the accused. Innocent until proven guilty is a pretty good principle.


 LOL YES I HAVE !!!!! And YES they do COVER IT UP ..... THEY MOVE THEM ON .... May i ask where you work because it's obviously not on this Planet ... I do not have to explain myself to you! ITt is not encouraged they just cover it up ..... You obviously have no insight to what happens to women in a working environment ..... WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE...... OH and btw i am far from HYSTERIC ...


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tincan said:


> LOL YES I HAVE !!!!! And YES they do COVER IT UP ..... THEY MOVE THEM ON .... *May i ask where you work because it's obviously not on this Planet *... I do not have to explain myself to you! ITt is not encouraged they just cover it up .*.... You obviously have no insight to what happens to women in a working environment* ..... WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE...... OH and btw i am far from HYSTERIC ...


I have worked in academe and for several blue chip companies in the chemicals/engineering sectors. Many of the managers, particularly in the HR depts are/were women so I'm forced to conclude that they must be part of the conspiracy to cover up this widespread abuse of women.

If men get 'moved on' in spite of evidence of sexual assault in the workplace, then I would suggest this is only possible if the women involved choose not to press for justice. It would be a criminal act for a company to cover up an offence once it has been reported.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Noticed my previous attempt to inject some self-deprecating humour went down like a lead balloon, but I can see now this is no joking matter for some. *I'll try to be serious this time. If you are really suggesting this happens to you "every day and every time" you walk past men in your workplace, then you need to complain to your boss & HR department. Somehow I suspect you are simply exaggerating in a way that generalises negatively against men*. If so, I think it fair to ask why you think that is a reasonable thing to do? If not, why don't you put a halt to it?


And so it goes on!!

For the record this was not me, as I previously posted I never let any one get to me again after the class room incident. This was one of my juniors a lovely girl who became a shadow of her self under such harassment. Thankfully with support she did report, and the enligtened and *real men * saw that the behaviour stopped. For the record I do not generalise negatively to men, my husband and I have made sure our son,(and daughter) were taught, treat all people, that means woman as well as men, with dignity.

I wonder what your mother/ sister/ daughter would think of your attitude?


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I have worked in academe and for several blue chip companies in the chemicals/engineering sectors. Many of the managers, particularly in the HR depts are/were women so I'm forced to conclude that they must be part of the conspiracy to cover up this widespread abuse of women.
> 
> If men get 'moved on' in spite of evidence of sexual assault in the workplace, then I would suggest this is only possible if the women involved choose not to press for justice. It would be a criminal act for a company to cover up an offence once it has been reported.


..... i AM SPEAKING OF MEN IN HIGHER PLACES, OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PRIVY TO THAT !!!!!! ..... I am talking "THE BIG BOY'S" Why do you think the women do not complain???? THEY DO it's just pointless ...... You can CONCLUDE to whatever CONSPIRACY you wish too ..... OH DEAR !!!! Perhaps you should remove your Rose tinted spectacles .....


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> And so it goes on!!
> 
> For the record this was not me, as I previously posted I never let any one get to me again after the class room incident. This was one of my juniors a lovely girl who became a shadow of her self under such harassment. Thankfully with support she did report, and the enligtened and *real men * saw that the behaviour stopped. For the record I do not generalise negatively to men, but my husband and I have made sure our son( and daughter) was taught treat all people, that means woman as well, with dignity.
> 
> I wonder what your mother or sister would think of your attitude?


You mean an "attitude" that rejects the hypothesis that sexual harassment in the workplace is endemic based upon the evidence of my own eyes?

An "attitude" that denounces harassment when it does occur?

An "attitude" that consistently encourages victims of harassment or bullying to report it?

I think my mother and sisters would be quite comfortable with my "attitude", but thank you for your concern.

This thread has descended from a legitimate debate as to the legal definition of sexual harassment into a display of misandry in which entire categories of men ranging from electricians to company directors have been condemned as perverts and lechers by women that reject the proposition that such acts should be reported and prosecuted.

It is verbal harassment of men in general, but the irony is lost to many of the contributors.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Descended into Mysogony methinks ...... Strange how some people post and recieve sympathy and empathy , then after a few posts , true colours are revealed  anyhoo would'nt do for us all to be the same..... Thank God i was born with some common sense :ciappa:


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

tincan said:


> Descended into Mysogony methinks ...... Strange how some people post and recieve sympathy and empathy , then after a few posts ,* true colours are revealed * anyhoo would'nt do for us all to be the same..... Thank God i was born with some common sense :ciappa:


You betcha....WAVE to a OLD member coooeeeee


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tincan said:


> Descended into Mysogony methinks ...... Strange how some people post and recieve sympathy and empathy , then after a few posts , true colours are revealed  anyhoo would'nt do for us all to be the same..... Thank God i was born with some common sense :ciappa:


The sympathy and empathy received in relation to the death of my dog has been welcome, greatly appreciated, and I have been at pains to try and thank posters individually.

That you choose to raise the death of a much loved dog as a debating point does not actually speak very highly of your self-professed common sense.

Time to leave you ladies to rail against manhood. Clearly being challenged to back up your wilder assertions is upsetting you.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

HAHAHA not that old "she says with a glint in those big baby blues"  wise enough to not post on that thread .... and bold enough to carry my own GOB


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Bewildering i never mentioned names , just a particular post.... However if the cap fits . Anyhoo my time and thoughts are precious , so away from here i go . Goodnight all sweet dreams


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tincan said:


> Bewildering i never mentioned names , just a particular post.... However if the cap fits . Anyhoo my time and thoughts are precious , so away from here i go . Goodnight all sweet dreams


Correct, you did however make a direct reference to my suggestion that you are displaying tendencies to misandry, so I think it reasonable to assume that the other spiteful comments related directly to me and the death of my dog.

Nice.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> The sympathy and empathy received in relation to the death of my dog has been welcome, greatly appreciated, and I have been at pains to try and thank posters individually.
> 
> That you choose to raise the death of a much loved dog as a debating point does not actually speak very highly of your self-professed common sense.


I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you have recently lost a dog, I do sympathise.



> Time to leave you ladies to rail against manhood. Clearly being challenged to back up your wilder assertions is upsetting you.


No-one is railing against 'manhood'.

We are railing against men that think its OK to sexually harrass or assault other people.

We _don't_ accept that we can't wear what we want to, without that being thought of as an invitation for certain members of society to grope us or worse.

We _don't_ accept that we can't go about our daily lives without being subject to coments from certain members of society about how they would 'like to do us'.

And we most _definitely_ don't accept being told we are full of lame excuses when we are too intimidated or frightened to report those certain members of society to the appropriate authorities.

Why don't you come back when _you_ have been a victim or sexual assault, or sexual harrassment, and _then_ tell us how easy is it to ignore, and how easy it is to report a minute by minute account of what happened to_ you_?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you have recently lost a dog, I do sympathise.
> 
> No-one is railing against 'manhood'.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your remark relating to my dog.

As to your long list of things you don't accept, that's pretty much fine by me too as it ought to be clear that I neither accept or condone them either.

Where we part company is on the justifications given for not reporting these assaults to the authorities. It seems you are content to allow the perpetrators to go unchallenged and to continue to harass and assault other women. I would have thought that reporting the offender was the ONLY way to ensure they are no longer able to intimidate or harass.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Thank you for your remark relating to my dog.
> 
> As to your long list of things you don't accept, that's pretty much fine by me too as it ought to be clear that I neither accept or condone them either.
> 
> Where we part company is on the justifications given for not reporting these assaults to the authorities. It seems you are content to allow the perpetrators to go unchallenged and to continue to harass and assault other women. I would have thought that reporting the offender was the ONLY way to ensure they are no longer able to intimidate or harass.


I didn't give _any_ justifications.

What I actually said was 'some people are too intimidated or frightened' to report things that are happening to them.

Yes, reporting the offender is _obviously_ the best way to deal with.

But until you have been a victim of this sort of crime, you don't know how you will feel, or how you will react.

Telling people they are 'full of lame excuses' for _not _reporting these crimes doesn't help anyone.

The victims of these crimes aren't 'content' to let the perpertrator go on to do it to other people - but sometimes they are so scared of what will happen to _them_ if they do report it, they keep quiet.

As I said, when you have been in that position, report back.

Its not as easy, _or_ as black and white, as you seem to think it is.


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Thank you for your remark relating to my dog.
> 
> As to your long list of things you don't accept, that's pretty much fine by me too as it ought to be clear that I neither accept or condone them either.
> 
> Where we part company is on the justifications given for not reporting these assaults to the authorities. It seems you are content to allow the perpetrators to go unchallenged and to continue to harass and assault other women. I would have thought that reporting the offender was the ONLY way to ensure they are no longer able to intimidate or harass.


I was raped when I was 16, the only person I have ever told was my husband and that wasn't until a few years ago, I am 50, I don't think anyone is *content* to allow perpetrators to go unchallenged I certainly wasn't and unless you have experienced something like this then you could not possibly understand how hard it is to tell anyone let alone try to bring them to justice.
The person that did this to me is dead,he was killed in an accident in his 20's,my consolation is that


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> Its beyond dressing nice though isnt it? its like a butchers window some nights with the meat on display, i dont condone any assault, i just wish some would wise up, we are all responsible for our own safety, and afterwards is too late
> 
> mind you, ive seen some awful sights.... :crying:


So when your long term partner pins you by your throat and insists that sexual consent is what you want, wel then it's because you've been dressing nice? So it must be your fault..... yeah right.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Sorry, but I'm not sure what your saying here. How was he 'dealt with'? Why didn't you take legal advice in relation to your treatment? You would almost certainly have had a case for constructive dismissal if they consistently ignored or failed to act on your complaints. It sounds like this was a fairly small company and in that case I can envisage that their HR policies were not particularly robust.
> 
> It sounds as if you did complain and that you tried to do that formally and were let down by the company. My concern is that others finding themselves in a similar situation may revert to an attitude I would describe as "knowing their rights but not knowing their responsibilities" and simply do not report the incident. That is unfair to the responsible employers and it is unfair to others that may also be subject to the bullying or harassment.


It was a multi million pound, international pharma company. Hardly small. I can almost guarantee you have some of their products in your home. It was a 1000 person strong manufacturing site i was based on.

I did everything i could do imo. I was let down for the sakes of a political sh*tstorm. I could hardly sue for constructive dismissal when i didnt leave. I transferred internally.

I dont know why you cant accept life isnt always so black and white and why u seem to push blame onto victims for not responding in what u consider the perfect way when frankly u have no idea what it is like to be in that situation.


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## K9Steve (Oct 5, 2012)

When I think what constitutes sexual assault, I think of someone "forcing" or "taking or doing by force" onto another that isn't unwanted or has been unsolicited in any way such as rape. However, if someone of the opposite or possibly the same sex puts their hands on your body in the appropriate places and you tell them to remove their hands, and they do it, hopefully the other person will consider it a warning, otherwise, if they keep doing it, then it's harrassment. 

I'm thinking though it would depend on the definitions in each jurisdictions though, and anyone wanted to know, they will have to look those definitions up in a current law book or computer for their jurisdiction, as it varies from one jurisdiction (ie, state to state, country to country).


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

skip said:


> I was raped when I was 16, the only person I have ever told was my husband and that wasn't until a few years ago, I am 50, I don't think anyone is *content* to allow perpetrators to go unchallenged I certainly wasn't and unless you have experienced something like this then you could not possibly understand how hard it is to tell anyone let alone try to bring them to justice.
> The person that did this to me is dead,he was killed in an accident in his 20's,my consolation is that


I'm so sorry you have had to live with such an awful experience and memory. I can perfectly understand why you might find my remarks about the need to report insensitive, but that would be to take them completely out of context.

My comments have, from the outset, been linked to allegations of sexual harassment in the workplace, specifically I challenged a poster who claimed that verbal abuse took place systematically, frequently and on numerous occasions every day. Stating that such instances need to be reported does not in any way extrapolate to your circumstances.

I can't begin to imagine the emotional and psychological turmoil of your experience and have no hesitation in recognising that, but as I have said previously there is an unhealthy tendency to generalise on this thread.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Cromford said:


> I have worked in academe and for several blue chip companies in the chemicals/engineering sectors. Many of the managers, particularly in the HR depts are/were women so I'm forced to conclude that they must be part of the conspiracy to cover up this widespread abuse of women.
> 
> If men get 'moved on' in spite of evidence of sexual assault in the workplace, then I would suggest this is only possible if the women involved choose not to press for justice. It would be a criminal act for a company to cover up an offence once it has been reported.


I used to work for the MoD many moons ago. Our particular section had about 280-300 staff. 8 of us were women. I did suffer bullying - from the women! If anything the men defended me and stood up for me when one older women (nicknamed poison) decided she didnt like me.

In all my work experience its the women who have been the worst for treating other women, not the men.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> It was a multi million pound, international pharma company. Hardly small. I can almost guarantee you have some of their products in your home. It was a 1000 person strong manufacturing site i was based on.
> 
> I did everything i could do imo. I was let down for the sakes of a political sh*tstorm. I could hardly sue for constructive dismissal when i didnt leave. I transferred internally.
> 
> I dont know why you cant accept life isnt always so black and white and why u seem to push blame onto victims for not responding in what u consider the perfect way when frankly u have no idea what it is like to be in that situation.


I have already stated that you appear to have been badly let down by your employers. Given that they did treat you like this would it not have been better to sue for constructive dismissal and find another job rather than accept a transfer within the same organisation? Of course there are a tranche of other circumstances that might have influenced your thinking, but at face value it is difficult to understand why you would chose to stay with an employer that treated you so appallingly.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

WelshOneEmma said:


> I used to work for the MoD many moons ago. Our particular section had about 280-300 staff. 8 of us were women. I did suffer bullying - from the women! If anything the men defended me and stood up for me when one older women (nicknamed poison) decided she didnt like me.
> 
> In all my work experience its the women who have been the worst for treating other women, not the men.


Emotional bullying is every bit as bad as physical bullying and it is just as inexcusable.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> I didn't give _any_ justifications.
> 
> What I actually said was 'some people are too intimidated or frightened' to report things that are happening to them.
> 
> ...


Please don't make the wild assumption that men have no basis for relating to these matters. Sexual harassment, sexual abuse, physical and emotional bullying are NOT uniquely reserved for women. I can say that with conviction.

For the record, I did report it, but the adults I reported it to decided to do nothing. Shame on them.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I have already stated that you appear to have been badly let down by your employers. Given that they did treat you like this would it not have been better to sue for constructive dismissal and find another job rather than accept a transfer within the same organisation? Of course there are a tranche of other circumstances that might have influenced your thinking, but at face value it is difficult to understand why you would chose to stay with an employer that treated you so appallingly.


Because the company, for its faults offered job security in a town where there is little for my particular expertise. In this economic climate I am sure you can appreciate just walking away from a stable job is not an easy thing.

When the place closed last yr, the only other work I could find was in the city which is not ideal - financially and personally. At the time I was living alone, and working in the city would have meant I would have had to rehome my dog and I would rather have suffered 9-5 than give up Buster; especially when the option was there to get away from the perpotrators, and transfer internally without giving up something I love.

I say again.... analyse my actions all you want, life is not black and white.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> So going to work doing your job, having men say loud enough for you to hear,I would like to give that one a good seeing to, etc etc if you wear a modest skirt, cor look at the legs on that, fancy them as a scarf mate, every day, every time you walk past is OK? Because they do not touch you!


No its not ok but it isn't sexual assault, sexual harrassment yes but not assault


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Because the company, for its faults offered job security in a town where there is little for my particular expertise. In this economic climate I am sure you can appreciate just walking away from a stable job is not an easy thing.
> 
> When the place closed last yr, the only other work I could find was in the city which is not ideal - financially and personally. At the time I was living alone, and working in the city would have meant I would have had to rehome my dog and I would rather have suffered 9-5 than give up Buster.
> 
> *I say again.... analyse my actions all you want, life is not black and white.*


Once again, I have already recognised that life is 'not black and white' and that there may have been "a tranche of other circumstances that might have influenced your thinking".

You weighed the circumstances and made your choice as is your prerogative.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So when your long term partner pins you by your throat and insists that sexual consent is what you want, wel then it's because you've been dressing nice? So it must be your fault..... yeah right.


*Nobody is saying this kind of behaviour is ok, far from it.Did you report it to the police? And i liked to think you are no longer with this moron.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

northnsouth said:


> So going to work doing your job, having men say loud enough for you to hear,I would like to give that one a good seeing to, etc etc if you wear a modest skirt, cor look at the legs on that, fancy them as a scarf mate, every day, every time you walk past is OK? Because they do not touch you!


*Now you see i would take this as banter. And if it were me, i'd reply with some remark like, the only way that's going to happen is in ya dreams.As far back as i can remember men have always been the same.*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now you see i would take this as banter. And if it were me, i'd reply with some remark like, the only way that's going to happen is in ya dreams.As far back as i can remember men have always been the same.*


I used to work as a multidrop driver and sometimes I would have another employee come out with me to help. Both women. We'd drive past building sites sometimes and shout corrrrr or wolf whistle and the guys would love it....does that constitute sexual harrassment then cos I'm the same as you, I see it as banter. Dang some of the stuff I've had said to me I can't print and I just shrugged it off laughing.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

For me sexual ASSAULT is when someone touches you inappropriately without your consent/against your will - totally unnacceptable

Then you have "flirting" - which is harmless banter but it has to be a mutual flirting - I often like a bit of banter in the office with the guys - I like talking about sex and naughty inuendo :blush: but they know how far to go with me and IF they did say anything I didnt like I would most certainly tell them - I am a strong vocal person and Im not afraid to tell people they are out of order - but not ALL women are like this and some find it very difficult to voice that they are not happy or feel uncomfortable - I think in these instances men need to read the signals a bit more and realise that they need to back off or calm down a bit.

And then there is Sexual Harrassment - again totally unacceptable - it happens far too often especially in the work place - where women are still sexualised far too much IMO! - what women wear to work should have NO bearing or entitlement for a man to think they are "game" or that they can talk to them in a certain way - it needs stamping out but unfortuantely many women are too frightened or unsure of the procedure to report - many DO report and nothing or little is done, many companies have NO policy for sexual harrassment or little EXPERIENCE in how to deal with it - and there is also unfortunatley sometimes the "lets stick together" mentality especially by companies predominantly run by men. 

Harrassment of any kind is wrong and the victim are often so intimidated/lack in self confidence/frightened/unsure of procedure/that they dont do anything - same for bullying in the work place and school - the fact is MOST people do NOT report - are they at fault??? NO its the attitudes and mentalities of others that think they are at fault that is wrong.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now you see i would take this as banter. And if it were me, i'd reply with some remark like, the only way that's going to happen is in ya dreams.As far back as i can remember men have always been the same.*


this is only banter because you enjoy it. if the recipient is not willing then it becomes harrassment.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

tiatortilla said:


> this is only banter because you enjoy it. if the recipient is not willing then it becomes harrassment.


*No only the pc. brigade would call it harrasment.*


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Never forget we only have three needs, food, air and procreation, or we wouldnt be here now


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Never forget we only have three needs, food, air and procreation, or we wouldnt be here now


*I fail to see what procreation has to do with anything on this thread.*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *No only the pc. brigade would call it harrasment.*


So if someone is making you feel totally uncomfortable and self-conscious regularly, its your own fault?? 
There is alot to be said for Tone.  I was able to have a joke and laugh with some of my ex colleagues, but there was a very distinct difference between light hearted banter and what I would call "harrassing" behaviour which is not light hearted.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *No only the pc. brigade would call it harrasment.*


I dont think its always PC - some women's limits of what they see as banter are different to others - my limit is quite high but someone else might find how I speak with some blokes quite offensive and they would deem as inappropriate I think thats the key here - women have different thresholds on what is appropriate or not


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *No only the pc. brigade would call it harrasment.*


think what you like - it's harrassment. if somebody with anxiety has to walk past people making comments like that every single day it takes a toll on their mental well being. so if you think i'm being too PC then that's fine, but i wouldn't like anybody else to have this kind of behaviour contribute to their struggle going outside.
banter/harrassment/abuse, it depends on the recipient.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I agree there is a limit as to when banter becomes harrassment. A quick wolf whistle or a joke is nothing to me but if I had to face it everytime I walked past a work mate or even a male friend it would be dealt with.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

tiatortilla said:


> think what you like - it's harrassment. if somebody with anxiety has to walk past people making comments like that every single day it takes a toll on their mental well being. so if you think i'm being too PC then that's fine, but i wouldn't like anybody else to have this kind of behaviour contribute to their struggle going outside.
> banter/harrassment/abuse, it depends on the recipient.


*I will think what i like thank you. If people don't like comments then why not ignore them? They are only words.*


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I fail to see what procreation has to do with anything on this thread.*


Where do you think sexual attraction starts*, and why?....

* even if its not appreciated


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

If women got all dolled up and went out (or to work) and got not 1 glance, not 1 wink, not 1 chat up, not 1 whistle they go home depressed!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

When my sister started work at 16 a bloke in stores used to say to her "corr you don't get many of them to the pound" - she was such a naive little thing she had to ask me what he meant lol and she was a bit !

When I started work at 17 I wasn't naive but painfully shy and would blush terribly. One of the Directors used to say "nice out isn't it, think I'll keep it out for a bit" I would cringe with embarrassment and he always came out with such quips for the fun of making me blush :blush: I think the major part of the embarrasment for me was that I thought he was ancient, he was probably in his early 40's so to me it was like my dad saying something like that:huh:

It was a long time ago but even now wouldn't think of it as harrassment - just a couple of daft blokes who thought they were funny


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> Where do you think sexual attraction starts*, and why?....
> 
> * even if its not appreciated


Is this an exam?

Settle down class for todays biology lesson. Now Janice don't you go using that brain of yours to think with. You know where it leads. Cromford put down your dictionary, we don't do big words in here.
Suzy, please refrain from flicking bogeys at Grumpy goby


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Lavenderb said:


> Is this an exam?
> 
> Settle down class for todays biology lesson. Now Janice don't you go using that brain of yours to think with. You know where it leads. Cromford put down your dictionary, we don't do big words in here.
> Suzy, please refrain from flicking bogeys at Grumpy goby


*
Thank you for the compliment. Its been a long time since someone thought i had a brain.:lol::lol:*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> If women got all dolled up and went out (or to work) and got not 1 glance, not 1 wink, not 1 chat up, not 1 whistle they go home depressed!


I dont ! 

I would rather go home and have my man whistle and wink at me any day! yeah its nice when it happens but I dont think many women go home and get depressed about it if they dont! we do have bigger things to think about most of the time you know


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Sexual Harassment at Work - UK Net Guide

Sexual Harassment at Work

Seems my "attitude" is not unique but I guess I need to accept the possibility that these advice sheets could have been written by other men who, by virtue of their sex, cannot possibly relate to the issues involved.

Even so the first advice sheet makes some useful points worth repeating.

1. Sexual harassment is illegal. The size of the company and the existence or not of an internal policy does not change this fact.

2. Sexual harassment is not exclusively reserved for women.

3. It is important to establish that the attention is unwelcome. Ignoring comments you find offensive for fear of being shunned does not do this and may in fact encourage the offenders to the belief that their abuse is acceptable 'banter'.

4&5. Make complaints formal by putting them in writing and keeping copies. Ensure that "independent" parties are informed.

6&7. Far from there being no support networks, grievance procedures and the law of the land are your friends.

If you choose not to follow these guidelines then you are making a personal choice and your choice is that tolerating the "harassment" is a lesser evil than the hassle and inconvenience of complaining. Feelings of intimidation or fear should be key factors you have considered in reaching your decision but I would suggest that anyone genuinely fearful or intimidated that elects to stay silent is not doing themself a favour.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Sexual Harassment at Work - UK Net Guide
> 
> Sexual Harassment at Work
> 
> ...


To be fair though I dont think many women who have suffered harrassment or even sexual assault stay silent because to say something is "a hassle and inconvenient" - you are reading a text book answer - which on the face of it is VERY VERY SIMPLE - but you are not taking into account these victims emotions/state of mind/situation which makes it all together more complicated - if everyone thought like you then there would be no suicides from adults or children suffering thru bullying/harrassment - every sexual assault case would be reported and dealt with - in favour of the victim etc ! but this is NOT an ideal world and you are not looking at things from the victims point of view.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I dont !
> 
> I would rather go home and have my man whistle and wink at me any day! yeah its nice when it happens but I dont think many women go home and get depressed about it if they dont! we do have bigger things to think about most of the time you know


Good for you

the other 99.99% are different though


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Good for you
> 
> the other 99.99% are different though


yeah and you would know wouldnt you because you can speak for EVERY woman! pmsl


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> For me sexual ASSAULT is when someone touches you inappropriately without your consent/against your will - totally unnacceptable
> 
> Then you have "flirting" - which is harmless banter but it has to be a mutual flirting - I often like a bit of banter in the office with the guys - I like talking about sex and naughty inuendo :blush: but they know how far to go with me and IF they did say anything I didnt like I would most certainly tell them - I am a strong vocal person and Im not afraid to tell people they are out of order - but not ALL women are like this and some find it very difficult to voice that they are not happy or feel uncomfortable - I think in these instances men need to read the signals a bit more and realise that they need to back off or calm down a bit.
> 
> ...


^^^Great post, completely agree with it all!



Colliebarmy said:


> If women got all dolled up and went out (or to work) and got not 1 glance, not 1 wink, not 1 chat up, not 1 whistle they go home depressed!


Don't know where you get this from, I don't leave the house with with the aim to make men notice me! The thought has never even crossed my mind! I go out wearing what I want (never anything revealing) it's always something nice and something that I feel comfortable wearing, I don't dress to impress men at all.

 I must be a depressed woman because those things rarely happen to me unless I'm oblivious to it.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Sexual Harassment at Work - UK Net Guide
> 
> Sexual Harassment at Work
> 
> ...


You couldn't have written that better than if the great 'Doggiebag' himself had written it


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> you are not looking at things from the victims point of view.


I'm sorry but you simply do not have any right or basis for suggesting that I am not taking the victims circumstances into account. That is merely your opinion because I have a different perspective than you.

It is another sweeping generalisation to suggest that the majority of those that elect not to report harassment do so because they are too frightened or intimidated. I would feel confident in suggesting that in many instances the decision is made to avoid the social or workplace consequences. Now it isn't right people should feel forced to make that choice, but it is a conscious choice and there is no denying that some will decide the hassle isn't worth the effort. There are examples on this thread of people making a positive decision to continue to expose themselves to abuse because they don't feel the system supports them adequately. I say it does but you need to be courageous enough to use it.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> You couldn't have written that better than if the great 'Doggiebag' himself had written it


I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'm sure you are aware of this and feel you have somehow "got one over on me" or "put me in my place". I'm happy for you.

Small victories eh?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> I'm sorry but you simply do not have any right or basis for suggesting that I am not taking the victims circumstances into account. That is merely your opinion because I have a different perspective than you.
> 
> It is another sweeping generalisation to suggest that the majority of those that elect not to report harassment do so because they are too frightened or intimidated. I would feel confident in suggesting that in many instances the decision is made to avoid the social or workplace consequences. Now it isn't right people should feel forced to make that choice, but it is a conscious choice and there is no denying that some will decide the hassle isn't worth the effort. There are examples on this thread of people making a positive decision to continue to expose themselves to abuse because they don't feel the system supports them adequately. I say it does but you need to be courageous enough to use it.


I do have a right to say what I think based on what you are writing - you are not taking there circumstances into consideration are you?? if you were then you would realise that its not as simple as reporting it.

The way I am reading your posts and forgive me if I am wrong is that if they dont report then they are at fault. - I just dont get that mentality of thinking.

What you wrote where I have highlighted just sums it up for me

The fact victims feel helpless enough and fear losing their job if they do report and therefore the abuse continues is a sure sign that the system for many does NOT work its not about courage!! surely it takes more courage to face the person who is harrassing you everyday - its because people do not have belief or trust in their workplace/bosses and the system - and that is what needs changing.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I do have a right to say what I think based on what you are writing - you are not taking there circumstances into consideration are you?? if you were then you would realise that its not as simple as reporting it.
> 
> *The way I am reading your posts and forgive me if I am wrong is that if they dont report then they are at fault. - I just dont get that mentality of thinking.*
> 
> ...


Ah well when you are so far off the mark, I suppose I should expect you to feel you have a right to tell me what I think. Arrogance becomes you.

Let me spell it out. The people to blame for sexual harassment are those that perpetrate it, not the victims.

Unfortunately the harsh reality is that the victims do have a responsibility to themselves. If they choose not to report harassment because, for example, they have read internet threads like this which have convinced them the system is geared against them, then sadly there is not much I can do to convince them otherwise.

It is a fact however that most companies that trade shares publicly, view sexual harassment as grounds for instant dismissal. If they fail to act on allegations, they are breaking the law and can be held accountable. The system IS there and there are a variety of options open to those that need it.

There were numerous comments in here last night inferring that women were routinely harassed by company directors/owners etc. This was held up as an excuse not to report the incidents and that is precisely what it is, an excuse. Individuals that are in such positions of power that abuse it in the manner suggested should be in prison. Yes there may be a risk that particularly in smaller companies a complaint might lead to unemployment, but "the system" recognises this and there are tribunals available to support and compensate the victims. Choosing not to report the matter in spite of these formal support systems is a choice and if some feel they would rather keep their jobs and continue to expose themselves to further abuse, them I am sorry that they see fit to make this choice. Simply repeating the myth that there is no outlet for the complaint is unhelpful and does a disservice to women that may be considering making a complaint.

I don't "blame" victims for being unfortunate enough to find themselves exposed to harassment. If they choose not to do anything about it then they shouldn't be surprised if some disagree with their choice.

Finally you say the system isn't working. Tell me what you think should be changed. I'm genuinely interested.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Ah well when you are so far off the mark, I suppose I should expect you to feel you have a right to tell me what I think. Arrogance becomes you.
> 
> Let me spell it out. The people to blame for sexual harassment are those that perpetrate it, not the victims.
> 
> ...


For starters a family that has been the victim of sexual abuse should not be forced to live on nothing for 2 months because the Department of work and pensions treat everyone the same and don't make allowances for anyone. If the wage earner is subject to losing their job because of sexual abuse..who protects their family?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> For starters a family that has been the victim of sexual abuse should not be forced to live on nothing for 2 months because the Department of work and pensions treat everyone the same and don't make allowances for anyone. If the wage earner is subject to losing their job because of sexual abuse..who protects their family
> 
> 
> > AN employer that sacked you for making a complaint of harassment is breaking the law and I doubt many would expose themselves to the consequences of doing that. However if you are suggesting the state would leave you destitute then that simply is not true.
> ...


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Ah well when you are so far off the mark, I suppose I should expect you to feel you have a right to tell me what I think. Arrogance becomes you.
> 
> Let me spell it out. The people to blame for sexual harassment are those that perpetrate it, not the victims.
> 
> ...


No 1 - I dont think what I said was Arrogant - I even put "forgive me if I am wrong" - I am merely giving you my interpretation/opinion of your quotes.

No 2 - That is something we agree on then.

No 3 - I dont see it as responsibility I see it as (for those with genuine cases of sexual assualt and harrassment as asking for help and guidance.

No 4 - I will reiterate what I have said previously - IF the system works why do 95% of cases go unreported?? you cannot categorically state that ALL cases that ARE reported are dealt with in the correct manner where the victim has retribution of some kind - I have read of many cases where the victims were fired for reporting in the first place! lets not forget that sexual harrassment in the work place has only been identified as such in the last 10 yrs or so - obviously it has gone on for a lot longer than that but attitudes in the work place are still not where they should be when it comes to harrassment - this is because equal ops for women in the work place which again is only relatively new is now in place - by far women have been classed as the inferior sex when it comes to the boardroom and mindsets are changing but slowly

I do agree that most companies will have a system in place - of course they will they have to by law but that does not mean that it will work for everyone who chooses to use it or that it really is in favour of the victim at all times - again if they were then more people would report right??

No 5 - I dont see not reporting for fear of job loss etc as an "excuse" as you put it - more of a "reason" - IMO excuse means to "defend" behaviour and this is not a term that should be used for real victims of sexual harrassment/assault they are not defending the perp they are protecting themselves.

From what I have read the most common reason why people dont always report is because they are not sure that the behaviour is serious enough - and that is mainly because there is STILL a great lack of knowledge of what IS and IS NOT acceptable in the work place.

Secondly and as I have already touched on - LACK OF FAITH AND TRUST in the complaint system in place.

Thirdly Fear/embarrassment that nothing would be done by who they complained to because the harrasser is far more senior and therefore further victimisation could take place.

I think if you research you will find that many victims take care of a situation themselves - probably by leaving the job etc to avoid all of the above

So I still stand by my opinion that the complaint "Systems" in place still need working on - the fact most sort without reporting confirms this.

Communication to all employees about the complaint system and more understanding towards the victim needs to be in place so they dont have a fear of reporting.

The workplace needs to show more clearly how their complaint system works and this will help push any negativity towards complain procedures instead of them being hush hush until someone actually needs to use it!

People in the workplace need to be aware of what behaviour is acceptable - not all do.

I also think more needs to be done in training heads of departments/Managers to deal with cases - as many have got not one jot of experience and handle things badly - more support should be in place


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Lavenderb said:
> 
> 
> > For starters a family that has been the victim of sexual abuse should not be forced to live on nothing for 2 months because the Department of work and pensions treat everyone the same and don't make allowances for anyone. If the wage earner is subject to losing their job because of sexual abuse..who protects their family
> ...


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Lavenderb said:
> 
> 
> > For starters a family that has been the victim of sexual abuse should not be forced to live on nothing for 2 months because the Department of work and pensions treat everyone the same and don't make allowances for anyone. If the wage earner is subject to losing their job because of sexual abuse..who protects their family
> ...


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> No 1 - I dont think what I said was Arrogant - I even put "forgive me if I am wrong" - I am merely giving you my interpretation/opinion of your quotes.
> 
> No 2 - That is something we agree on then.
> 
> ...


Assuming you are capable of interpreting someones thoughts more accurately than them does sound a trifle arrogant to me.

You don't think the victims have a responsibility *to themselves*?
Really?? You think that?

95% of all cases go unreported. That sounds familiar if we are talking about rape, but we are not. We are discussing workplace harassment. If you have statistical evidence to support your claim I'd be interested in the source. Of course I cannot guarantee that all complaints will have an entirely just outcome but that is a ridiculous aspiration. Their will always be miscarriages of justice no matter what legislation is in place. Sadly this is a fact of life. What we should aspire too is that the number of such cases is minimised and the existence of independent employment tribunals is one method to try to accomplish this. I have no interest in arguing whether or not women are adequately represented at board level in companies, but it doesn't surprise me to see you raise this as an issue. It is entirely irrelevant to the topic, but it at least helps me explain why I feel there are elements of misandry in some of the remarks on the thread.

The "system" quite rightly needs to be fair to both the accuser and the accused. It is not unknown for false accusations to be made and therefore your assertion that the "system" should always favour the victim, is only valid if you recognise that the "victim" may actually be the person or persons accused.

I accept your remarks distinquishing "reason" from "excuse" perhaps I could have chosen my words better. I was however using the term in relation to the actions (or inaction) of the victim and not in the context you appear to be suggesting. At no point have I sought to defend or excuse harassment. That should be abundantly clear to anyone reading my posts objectively.

I agree that many cases may go unreported because the victims themselves are unsure if the behavior constitutes harassment or not. I would not have thought it difficult to explain this to a manager or HR representative.

_"Look I'm not completely sure if offence was intended or not but I found the following to be bordering on harassment ...could you please ask the offender's manager to have a quiet word?"_ Surely that would suffice for an isolated incident. If the offence is one that is repeated regularly then I would have thought that in itself would remove doubts as to whether or not it constitutes harassment...No?

Your remarks relating to adequate communication of policy are entirely sensible and I have no reason to disagree. I would only say that you should also acknowledge that there are many excellent practices out there. Many companies require all employees to be trained on their 'code of conduct' policies and to pass exams to prove they are aware. This means the unacceptability of harassment and bullying is crystal clear. It is, as I have said often, a misdemeanor punishable by instant dismissal.

I suggest that things are not as biased against the victim as you suggest, however it would be great if you or the other women complaining about this made some constructive suggestions as to how things can be improved. I'm afraid stacking the process to favour the complainant is not a suggestion I accept as it is a denial of natural justice for those accused.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Cromford said:
> 
> 
> > Lavenderb said:
> ...


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Please don't make the wild assumption that men have no basis for relating to these matters. Sexual harassment, sexual abuse, physical and emotional bullying are NOT uniquely reserved for women. I can say that with conviction.
> 
> For the record, I did report it, but the adults I reported it to decided to do nothing. Shame on them.


In the sentence you highlighted I was using the word 'you' in a generic sense, I was not meaning you personally.

Due to where I work I am fully aware that males are also victims of sexual abuse, sexual harrassment, physical and emotional bullying and domestic violence.

Thank you for pointing it out, but if you go back and re-read what I had actually written, you will notice I didn't refer to either gender in my post, so I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to bring it up.

A wild assumption maybe?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> grumpy goby said:
> 
> 
> > Cromford said:
> ...


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Cromford said:
> 
> 
> > grumpy goby said:
> ...


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> In the sentence you highlighted I was using the word 'you' in a generic sense, I was not meaning you personally.
> 
> Due to where I work I am fully aware that males are also victims of sexual abuse, sexual harrassment, physical and emotional bullying and domestic violence.
> 
> ...


_"Why don't you come back when you have been a victim or sexual assault, or sexual harrassment, and then tell us how easy is it to ignore, and how easy it is to report a minute by minute account of what happened to you?"
_

I came back as per your instruction. I apologise for the crass insensitivity of my assumption that the above sentence, in a post that was a direct response to me, was anything other than 'generic'.

Sorry.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Assuming you are capable of interpreting someones thoughts more accurately than them does sound a trifle arrogant to me.
> 
> You don't think the victims have a responsibility *to themselves*?
> Really?? You think that?
> ...


No I dont think its about responsibility - thats not the way to get a victim to open up IMO.

Well at least we agreed on a few things!! 

I still think you look at things fairly unrealistically but hey hoe we will agree to disagree - I stand by what I have said that for the MOST part harrassment at work goes unreported due to the reasons I have stated - you can argue the toss all you want but those are the facts - look online and you can see the evidence - I have not got time this afternoon to go looking for links but they are there.

I am not disputing that some companies DO understand and implement their systems well - but I still think they are few and far between.

I think I have made some constructive suggestions - more awareness and more communication between employee and employer, knowledge of what behaviour is and is not acceptable - this is helpful to both victims and potential harrassers - the workplace just needs to be more on the ball in these areas.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Inappropriate behaviour quite probably, but I am sorry I don't feel some old lech gawping down your top is sexual assault - if it was a young good looking chap who you fancied doing exactly the same would you still say it was sexual assault? Suppose some old ugly chap gazes at your face, possibly just thinking what a pretty girl, yes it may make you feel uncomfortable but he wouldn't have assaulted you.


I've only just seen this and it's really p!ssed me off. I'm sorry but you think I'm shallow enough to accept the attentions of a young good looking man, to the point where I would freely allow him to gawp down my top, but as soon as it's 'some old lech', I'm screaming sexual assult?!?! 

How dare you, I wouldn't allow *anyone* free range to look down my top, whether I fancied them or not! I don't even let my _boyfriend_ behave in such a manner!

There is a _very_ big difference between an older gentleman commenting on a woman being pretty and a dirty old man touching a young woman on the small of her back, just centimetres from her bottom, and oogling her chest _in her work place!!_

I might be young but I'm not stupid enough or sexist enough to scream sexual assault when there's none there. After the incident I felt *sexually violated by this man.* I would've if it had been any man, old or young, handsome or not. No one, and I mean _no one_ has the right to look down my top, comment on my chest, touch me in such an intimate place unless I want them to, and I can tell you categorically that only my partner would have the privilege of such intimacy!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Well at least we agreed on a few things!!
> 
> I still think you look at things fairly unrealistically but hey hoe we will agree to disagree - I stand by what I have said that for the MOST part harrassment at work goes unreported due to the reasons I have stated - you can argue the toss all you want but those are the facts - look online and you can see the evidence - I have not got time this afternoon to go looking for links but they are there.
> 
> ...


There is always room for improvement no matter what the base line is. There is no disputing that.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I've only just seen this and it's really p!ssed me off. I'm sorry but you think I'm shallow enough to accept the attentions of a young good looking man, to the point where I would freely allow him to gawp down my top, but as soon as it's 'some old lech', I'm screaming sexual assult?!?!
> 
> How dare you, I wouldn't allow *anyone* free range to look down my top, whether I fancied them or not! I don't even let my _boyfriend_ behave in such a manner!
> 
> ...


*You class the small of your back an intimate place? Or have i read this wrong?*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *You class the small of your back an intimate place? Or have i read this wrong?*


It was about 2cm away from my backside, so yes, I do. It was the very base of my spine, just above the tailbone. I may have got my terminology wrong here, remind me again where the small of your back is?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> It was about 2cm away from my backside, so yes, I do. It was the very base of my spine, just above the tailbone. I may have got my terminology wrong here, remind me again where the small of your back is?


*I'd say the small of your back is the lower part where it usually arches.About the waste line.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'd say the small of your back is the lower part where it usually arches.About the waste line.*


Well it was considerably lower than that, his hand was very close to my bottom.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Well it was considerably lower than that, his hand was very close to my bottom.


This is the very essence of the thread. Surely to goodness the question of sexual assault or not is much too serious to be based on a 'one centimetre higher or lower' argument? If you cannot make up your mind whether he touched your bum or not, how can we be sure he was ogling your bust?

Should all men be concerned that if you wear a low cut top they might find themselves accused of sexual assault simply by looking in your general direction? When does an innocent glance cross the line into a perverted ogle?
Really if you don't want men to look at your bust either by intent or by accident then perhaps the answer would be a burqa?

Call me old-fashioned perhaps, but I had not realised that the small of someones back was a particularly intimate erogenous zone. Many men, probably myself included, will have placed a hand there, not for sexual gratification , but perhaps as a token of affection or as a protective gesture towards a women we know particularly well. To many this would be an entirely natural thing to do, say for example on accompanying a lady friend through a crowded tube station or ushering them through a door. In my social circle I would be surprised if any women saw that as a sexual assault. Sadly, I now realise I need to be careful to avoid doing this just in case.

I don't doubt the strength of feeling behind your remarks and it is clear that you felt 'violated', but for goodness sakes..If per chance he pursued you behind the bar ( I seem to recall you saying you worked in a bar, but apologise if I'm mistaken) in order to perpetrate this alleged assault then I can begin to understand your perspective, if he didn't then I'd be worried you might accuse me of sexual assault if I had the simple misfortune of sharing a crowded public space with you.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cromford said:


> This is the very essence of the thread. Surely to goodness the question of sexual assault or not is much too serious to be based on a 'one centimetre higher or lower' argument? If you cannot make up your mind whether he touched your bum or not, how can we be sure he was ogling your bust?
> 
> Should all men be concerned that if you wear a low cut top they might find themselves accused of sexual assault simply by looking in your general direction? When does an innocent glance cross the line into a perverted ogle?
> Really if you don't want men to look at your bust either by intent or by accident then perhaps the answer would be a burqa?
> ...


*Excellent post..I have just read out some of the comments on here just to make sure i haven't lost my marbles.
You mention how men would put their hand on the small of a ladies back, and you describe exactly what i was saying to hubby.In my day, as you say it was classed as a gentlemanly gesture.
Now perhaps some might understand why i started this thread, and why i say things were different.But when and who changed the rules?*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Excellent post..I have just read out some of the comments on here just to make sure i haven't lost my marbles.
> You mention how men would put their hand on the small of a ladies back, and you describe exactly what i was saying to hubby.In my day, as you say it was classed as a gentlemanly gesture.
> Now perhaps some might understand why i started this thread, and why i say things were different.But when and who changed the rules?*


Janice I suspect we are of a similar 'vintage' and will, in all probability be subject to some 'ageist' criticisms stating that we are out of touch etc etc.

The problem with continuing down the slippery slope of political correctness is that the destination isn't very appealing. If we were to act on some of the expectations in here, then we would all end up wearing Dolce and Gabbana unisex burqas inside our own private sound-proofed Prada-designed perspex tubes. That put a halt to the sexual harassment. Be a pretty dull existence though. There are rules and regulations, laws and support networks available. If more use was made of them we might begin to stamp out the unacceptable behaviors without undermining the social fabric of the society we live in.

Sexual assault.....now that's a different matter altogether, but sadly many seem to have a blurred view of the distinction.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> This is the very essence of the thread. Surely to goodness the question of sexual assault or not is much too serious to be based on a 'one centimetre higher or lower' argument? If you cannot make up your mind whether he touched your bum or not, how can we be sure he was ogling your bust?
> 
> Should all men be concerned that if you wear a low cut top they might find themselves accused of sexual assault simply by looking in your general direction? When does an innocent glance cross the line into a perverted ogle?
> Really if you don't want men to look at your bust either by intent or by accident then perhaps the answer would be a burqa?
> ...


Ok,

A) I know he was ogling my chest because he was stood over me looking directly down

B) He did pursue me behind the bar - I was standing behind it, there was an entrance, he walked into the entrance and stood so close I could feel his breath on me. The bar wasn't in any way crowded, it was in the nightclub bar and it was a very quiet night.

C) This man was not familiar with me, I haven't seen him before or since. If a close friend or male relative touched me in the small of my back I would have no objection, but I didn't know this man from Adam, hence why it was entirely inappropriate for him to touch me there.

Again I will reiterate the point, I am not a fool. I know that men will look at women's legs and chest particularly if they are on show. My chest, nor my legs were on show, the only way you could see down my top was to stand on top me and look down, which is exactly what this man did. He even indicated them with his head and said "There's a gap down there", as I do not have a busty cleavage. When I told him off, he laughed and tried to make out he was talking about the floor. There was no gap on the floor and he was standing at completely the wrong angle if indeed he was looking at the floor. Furthermore, his friend saw all of this, apologised to me and made him leave the bar.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> _"Why don't you come back when you have been a victim or sexual assault, or sexual harrassment, and then tell us how easy is it to ignore, and how easy it is to report a minute by minute account of what happened to you?"
> _
> 
> I came back as per your instruction. I apologise for the crass insensitivity of my assumption that the above sentence, in a post that was a direct response to me, was anything other than 'generic'.
> ...


Yes, you came back quoting a completely different line from my post, from the one you actually highlighted.

The sentence you originally highlighted was this one:
_But until you have been a victim of this sort of crime, you don't know how you will feel, or how you will react._

In that sentence I was using the term 'you' generically.

Apology accepted


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Ok,
> 
> A) I know he was ogling my chest because he was stood over me looking directly down
> 
> ...


OK. Now you have put your remarks in context I can better understand why you were upset.

Personally I would say his actions were inappropriate and an invasion of your privacy. I would be hesitant to go beyond that and suggest that a sexual assault had taken place. Others may have a different opinion.

I suspect he was a drunken idiot showing off to his mate and that you unfortunately were his prop. There are occasions and circumstances in life when we ought to accept that unpleasant situations can arise. It sounds to me like this was one of them. Having charges brought against him for sexual assault is no trivial matter and would have had the potential to ruin BOTH your life's. If you were my daughter I'd be advising you put an isolated incident like this down to experience, but that you call me so I could pop round with a baseball bat should he ever try to repeat the incident. 

More seriously, I would also be demanding that you employer did something to avoid drunken idiots from wandering freely behind your bar and place of work. It was a nightclub. Were there no bouncers? I'm sure they would have delighted in having a quiet word to persuade him not to invade your privacy.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> Yes, you came back quoting a completely different line from my post, from the one you actually highlighted.
> 
> The sentence you originally highlighted was this one:
> _But until you have been a victim of this sort of crime, you don't know how you will feel, or how you will react._
> ...


Dear oh dear. I feel embarrassed for you. Probably best you avoid posting again on the principle that when your in a hole you should stop digging.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Dear oh dear. I feel embarrassed for you. Probably best you avoid posting again on the principle that when your in a hole you should stop digging.


Keep your embarrassment for yourself.

If you were not responding to the line you highlighted, why did you highlight it?

Feel free to take your own advice.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> OK. Now you have put your remarks in context I can better understand why you were upset.
> 
> Personally I would say his actions were inappropriate and an invasion of your privacy. I would be hesitant to go beyond that and suggest that a sexual assault had taken place. Others may have a different opinion.
> 
> ...


I did tell the bouncers, but by that point his friends had made him leave. My employer didn't give a monkeys, and encouraged the girls to wear low-cut tops in order to get better tips 

I wouldn't have reported him to the police or some sort of court for sexual assault, as it was an isolated incident. As I said before, however, if he continued to do it to me or another woman, I would report him because it's a regular thing.

It's one thing being drunk and having no inhibitions, but it goes back to both men and women needed to exercise self-control. Don't use beer goggles as an excuse because that's all it is, an excuse. If I'm on a night out and I want to wear a skirt because it makes me feel sexy then I am well within my rights to, and I shouldn't have to worry about a man coming up to me and trying it on because he thinks I'm up for it. I've have no problem with age-appropriate looking, what I object to is inappropriate touching.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

ive been groped loads of times over the years. ive been chased round a table at my work. ive been groped on dates. ive been ogled at my work. ive never consided myself to be a victim of assualt. i just think i was unlucky and in the company of idiots . might have to consider thing a bit.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm going to put my account on the line here and suggest ladies that you don't rise to Cromfords posts. He is clearly here to rile, as per previous members who departed under dubious circumstances.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I did tell the bouncers, but by that point his friends had made him leave. My employer didn't give a monkeys, and encouraged the girls to wear low-cut tops in order to get better tips
> 
> I wouldn't have reported him to the police or some sort of court for sexual assault, as it was an isolated incident. As I said before, however, if he continued to do it to me or another woman, I would report him because it's a regular thing.
> 
> It's one thing being drunk and having no inhibitions, but it goes back to both men and women needed to exercise self-control. Don't use beer goggles as an excuse because that's all it is, an excuse. If I'm on a night out and I want to wear a skirt because it makes me feel sexy then I am well within my rights to, and I shouldn't have to worry about a man coming up to me and trying it on because he thinks I'm up for it. I've have no problem with age-appropriate looking, what I object to is inappropriate touching.


Where to start.

You knowingly took a job in a bar where the owner encouraged the bar staff to dress in a manner designed to attract attention from men. Would it not have been better to have gone to work in another bar that didn't treat its employees like pieces of meat?

What is 'age appropriate' looking. If a guy your age looked at you that's fine, but if an older guy like me looks at you, then you assume we are 'dirty old men'? Is there a specific age differential beyond which 'looking' becomes sexual harassment or perversion?

If you dress in order to 'feel sexy' then I would suggest you should anticipate attention from members of the opposite sex and that not all of that attention may be welcome. That I'm afraid is a simple fact of life. You have a right to dress as you please without being molested, but equally men have a right to look at you if you dress 'to feel sexy' without being accused of sexual harassment if they happen to be more than x years older than you.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> I'm going to put my account on the line here and suggest ladies that you don't rise to Cromfords posts. He is clearly here to rile, as per previous members who departed under dubious circumstances.


I am not here to "rile", nor am I, as you seem to be suggesting, a previous poster in another guise. I am participating in a debate in an entirely civilised manner and if you think otherwise feel free to report me to the site moderators. They will at the very least be able to confirm for you that I am not who you seem to think I am.

Also if you can't handle different opinions, then an Internet forum may not be the best place for you to spend your time.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Where to start.
> 
> You knowingly took a job in a bar where the owner encouraged the bar staff to dress in a manner designed to attract attention from men. Would it not have been better to have gone to work in another bar that didn't treat its employees like pieces of meat?
> 
> ...


I didn't know when I took the job that that's what the management suggested, it was only two months into the job when I wondered out loud how some of the girls got £40 in tips when I get about £8. It was then suggested by the management to wear revealing clothes.

Unfortunately I couldn't quit the job as I'm a student and used the job to earn money that would tide me through my second year at uni as I don't get a maintenance loan. Fortunately after that summer, I quit the job as it was horrendous.

Non-age-appropriate looking would be a 40-, 50-year old man leering at me. A quick glance is different to out and out staring (or indeed leering), but I would more comfortable if a younger man leered, mainly because they wouldn't be old enough to be my father. Having said that, if a man my age did leer, I would give him what for, as there's no cause for it.

Again I will reiterate my point that I have no problem with looking - it's a natural reaction for people to look when they see someone good looking. What's not appropriate is trying it on because a woman is dressed in a certain way.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> Keep your embarrassment for yourself.
> 
> If you were not responding to the line you highlighted, why did you highlight it?
> 
> Feel free to take your own advice.


I highlighted that particular remark because my response was making it clear that I have personally experienced sexual harassment and sexual abuse and that even though I was only an adolescent I reported the incident. You seemed to be of the opinion that sexual harassment or abuse is something uniquely reserved for women. I was highlighting the fallacy of the 'ignore men because they can't possibly relate to this' argument.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I didn't know when I took the job that that's what the management suggested, it was only two months into the job when I wondered out loud how some of the girls got £40 in tips when I get about £8. It was then suggested by the management to wear revealing clothes.
> 
> Unfortunately I couldn't quit the job as I'm a student and used the job to earn money that would tide me through my second year at uni as I don't get a maintenance loan. Fortunately after that summer, I quit the job as it was horrendous.
> 
> ...


I agree with one element of your post. Your job was horrendous and you are better off without it.

As for the rest, surely you can see the inherent inconsistencies? Does the boundary between leering and looking change with a man's age? You seem to suggest it does. The bottom line is that if the attention is unwelcome or inappropriate, such as a guy encroaching behind the bar to touch you, then his age is irrelevant. He shouldn't do it.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I agree with one element of your post. Your job was horrendous and you are better off without it.
> 
> As for the rest, surely you can see the inherent inconsistencies? Does the boundary between leering and looking change with a man's age? You seem to suggest it does. The bottom line is that if the attention is unwelcome or inappropriate, such as a guy encroaching behind the bar to touch you, then his age is irrelevant. He shouldn't do it.


Your final point is the point I'm trying to make, albeit not very well. If a man did touch me inappropriately then that is wrong, no matter what his age.

The point I was making about age and looking is that it's more socially acceptable and more mentally acceptable to be looked at by someone your own age. I would find any leering inappropriate, but being 'checked out', as it were, by someone your own age doesn't necessarily make you feel like a piece of meat and can actually be somewhat of a compliment. I think it changes when the man in question is old enough to be your father. I think at that point it crosses the inappropriate boundary because the man is of a different generation to you.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> I agree with one element of your post. Your job was horrendous and you are better off without it.
> 
> As for the rest, surely you can see the inherent inconsistencies? Does the boundary between leering and looking change with a man's age? You seem to suggest it does. The bottom line is that if the attention is unwelcome or inappropriate, such as a guy encroaching behind the bar to touch you, then his age is irrelevant. He shouldn't do it.


I can see what RB is saying here, whilst age should be irrelevant in my own experience of leering etc its always worse when its someone old enough to be yr father , it just feels more dirty ....they probably have daughters of the same age and that thought always mkes u more uncomfortable.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

> Non-age-appropriate looking would be a 40-, 50-year old man leering at me. A quick glance is different to out and out staring (or indeed leering), but I would more comfortable if a younger man leered, mainly because they wouldn't be old enough to be my father. Having said that, if a man my age did leer, I would give him what for, as there's no cause for it.


Im 58, where/what can I look at :wink:

Ridiculous thread and comments, consider Italy, have they banned bum pinching yet?...


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> I'm going to put my account on the line here and suggest ladies that you don't rise to Cromfords posts. He is clearly here to rile, as per previous members who departed under dubious circumstances.


Finally someone who has said what i have been thinking (and i'm sure others have too) So there we go .... Feeling better already


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> I can see what RB is saying here, whilst age should be irrelevant in my own experience of leering etc its always worse when its someone old enough to be yr father , it just feels more dirty ....they probably have daughters of the same age and that thought always mkes u more uncomfortable.


*But this should apply to both sexes. How many times have we seen a "young" guys picture on here and the women have said made sexy remarks.
And although i have never been to a hen party, from what i've heard, women can be a darn sight more sexiest.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Im 58, where/what can I look at :wink:
> 
> Ridiculous thread and comments, consider Italy, have they banned bum pinching yet?...


*lol Well i'm older than you, 62. *


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *But this should apply to both sexes. How many times have we seen a "young" guys picture on here and the women have said made sexy remarks.
> And although i have never been to a hen party, from what i've heard, women can be a darn sight more sexiest.*


Of course jan it can and does work both ways ......its when one side is uncomfortable that lines shud not b crossed


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *But this should apply to both sexes. How many times have we seen a "young" guys picture on here and the women have said made sexy remarks.
> And although i have never been to a hen party, from what i've heard, women can be a darn sight more sexiest.*


It does apply to both sexes, a man is as entitled to complain as a woman of inappropriate sexual behaviour.

Women can be worse, doesnt mean its acceptable. And male models are no different to female models on pg 3.... its not harrassment... dont really see how its relevant?

Cant comment on the hen party, most of my mates are men, so i had a hen-stag do


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Of course jan it can and does work both ways ......its when one side is uncomfortable that lines shud not b crossed





grumpy goby said:


> It does apply to both sexes, a man is as entitled to complain as a woman of inappropriate sexual behaviour.
> 
> Women can be worse, doesnt mean its acceptable. And male models are no different to female models on pg 3.... its not harrassment... dont really see how its relevant?
> 
> Cant comment on the hen party, most of my mates are men, so i had a hen-stag do


*But honestly how many guys would complain? They would be made to feel right idiots.Sorry, but i wouldn't want to be a guy in this society today.*


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> I highlighted that particular remark because my response was making it clear that I have personally experienced sexual harassment and sexual abuse and that even though I was only an adolescent I reported the incident. You seemed to be of the opinion that sexual harassment or abuse is something uniquely reserved for women. I was highlighting the fallacy of the 'ignore men because they can't possibly relate to this' argument.


I guess you missed this reply then. I have bolded the relevant bits for you.



MCWillow said:


> In the sentence you highlighted I was using the word 'you' in a generic sense, I was not meaning you personally.
> 
> *Due to where I work I am fully aware that males are also victims of sexual abuse, sexual harrassment, physical and emotional bullying and domestic violence.*
> 
> ...


I was actually starting to get annoyed with you, as it seems that you are hellbent on upsetting people for the sake of it.

But then I remembered something my Grandad used to say.

_Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity._

On that note, I am bowing out of this thread


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I can see what RB is saying here, whilst age should be irrelevant in my own experience of leering etc its always worse when its someone old enough to be yr father , it just feels more dirty ....they probably have daughters of the same age and that thought always mkes u more uncomfortable.


Hmmm ....I can understand this as a point of view, but I don't agree.

If it was Andy Garcia or Hugh Grant would the 'leer' become an acceptable look? Conversely if the look came from a particularly ugly young guy, would it become a leer?

I think there is a risk that age might be being used as a metaphor for attractiveness and that the underlying attitude might have an element of ageism to it.

On the other hand, as an ugly auld get I might just be jealous.....


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *But honestly how many guys would complain? They would be made to feel right idiots.Sorry, but i wouldn't want to be a guy in this society today.*


So earlier when we had members saying we hold some responsibility as we dont complain - does the same rule not apply to men?

I know for certain that while I was getting grief from the engineers, the other young male apprentices were getting similar treatment from female operators. I tell no lie in that one poor lad, very shy, was actually too afraid to attend certain manufacturing halls - as you say he didnt complain, but only though his sense of "bravado" than because he enjoyed it. It was all talk, and comments/remarks, nothing physical....but I think as the lads were young and very painfully shy, it terrified them! The women just took it as banter, i dont think they realised how terrified he was of them!

(these women were particularly brutal to new apprentices...)


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Hmmm ....I can understand this as a point of view, but I don't agree.
> 
> If it was Andy Garcia or Hugh Grant would the 'leer' become an acceptable look? Conversely if the look came from a particularly ugly young guy, would it become a leer?
> 
> ...


I personally don't blame it on looks and I think some good-looking men can be worse than the ugly ones for leering. I think anyone that leers, whether it be man or woman (because women leer too), shouldn't cus leering is inappropriate.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> So earlier when we had members saying we hold some responsibility as we dont complain - does the same rule not apply to men?
> 
> I know for certain that while I was getting grief from the engineers, the other young male apprentices were getting similar treatment from female operators. I tell no lie in that one poor lad, very shy, was actually too afraid to attend certain manufacturing halls - as you say he didnt complain, but only though his sense of "bravado" than because he enjoyed it.
> 
> (these women were particularly brutal to new apprentices...)


Times surely have moved on since then? These initiation rituals simply would not be tolerated nowadays.

I would say that the obligation to complain is pretty universal in cases of genuine harassment. If men see women being harassed they should be man enough to tell the harassers where to get off and to report them if necessary. It isn't just the victims that ought to complain.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Hmmm ....I can understand this as a point of view, but I don't agree.
> 
> If it was Andy Garcia or Hugh Grant would the 'leer' become an acceptable look? Conversely if the look came from a particularly ugly young guy, would it become a leer?
> 
> ...


How attractive they are makes no difference to me ....and believe me I have had attractive men stare and make comments .....some men just have no ettiqutte or manners or self control .....personally my threshold is high so it wud take someone actually physically touching me for me to get really pissed off ....but not evryone is the same unwanted attention is just that regardless of how they look


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Times surely have moved on since then? These initiation rituals simply would not be tolerated nowadays.
> 
> I would say that the obligation to complain is pretty universal in cases of genuine harassment. If men see women being harassed they should be man enough to tell the harassers where to get off and to report them if necessary. It isn't just the victims that ought to complain.


You would think that we would have moved on...this was still happening 3 yrs ago and seemed to be common right up to the oldest members having had the same treatment from operators when they were apprentices.

In that aspect I didnt suffer a whole lot differently to anyone else i was working with, the main difference was the physical side and the fact I had to deal with it everyday, and was particularly isolated as I didnt have anyone who had been in my position to turn to for advice.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> How attractive they are makes no difference to me ....and believe me I have had attractive men stare and make comments .....some men just have no ettiqutte or manners or self control .....personally my threshold is high so it wud take someone actually physically touching me for me to get really pissed off ....but not evryone is the same unwanted attention is just that regardless of how they look


That I can accept as a valid point of view. On the other hand, views have been expressed that age IS a factor in determining what is and is not appropriate. That I don't accept. An inappropriate action doesn't become more or less appropriate based on the age of the perpetrator.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> *You would think that we would have moved on...this was still happening 3 yrs ago and seemed to be common right up to the oldest members having had the same treatment from operators when they were apprentices.*
> 
> In that aspect I didnt suffer a whole lot differently to anyone else i was working with, the main difference was the physical side and the fact I had to deal with it everyday, and was particularly isolated as I didnt have anyone who had been in my position to turn to for advice.


Don't you think that makes my point about reporting these issues all the more valid?

You seem to have a particularly obnoxious employer if they allow this sort of thing to go on unchecked.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> That I can accept as a valid point of view. On the other hand, views have been expressed that age IS a factor in determining what is and is not appropriate. That I don't accept. An inappropriate action doesn't become more or less appropriate based on the age of the perpetrator.


I disagree a child of 9 can commit a crime and not be tried the same as if they were seventeen ......age is a massive factor as supposedly the older u are the more u shud know on how to behave .


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I disagree a child of 9 can commit a crime and not be tried the same as if they were seventeen ......age is a massive factor as supposedly the older u are the more u shud know on how to behave .


I don't encounter many 9 year olds in the workplace.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Firstly to Rabbitmonkee I apologise if I upset you, I did not intend to belittle how you felt by the incident. Not sure how to word it properly without upsetting you more but what I am trying to say if there is a catch all "sexual assault" statement that covers some old (or young) person leering and having a gawp down your top however inappropriate and however uncomfortable and embarrased it makes you feel should that be classed on the same scale as something much more sinister and physically threatening?

Previously I gave an example of how embarrassed I felt by inappropriate comments a chap made when I was in my teens, I was terribly shy and not able to think of some witty put down. It wasn't funny and it wasn't nice but it was no way any kind of assault.

Now when I was in my mid twenties an exec director came across me in the kitchen at work, I was alone with him and he made incredibly inappropriate comments, can't remember what it was but at the time there was a film where a couple enjoyed a bit of passion on the kitchen sink :huh:, saves washing up I suppose as they broke the dishes! Whilst pinned against the sink I was informed my legs were long enough to make that a reality and he attempted to hoist me up onto said sink - now that was bloody frightening as his intentions were clear. I was petrified, luckily by then I was a much stronger person and just quietly said my husband is 6' 7" a builder and not afraid to use his fists, get your hands off me now or he will break every bone in your body :nonod:



Cromford said:


> Don't you think that makes my point about reporting these issues all the more valid?
> 
> You seem to have a particularly obnoxious employer if they allow this sort of thing to go on unchecked.


Some of your points have been sensible and valid but this fixation with whether you report or not makes you culpabile for what has happened are not the real world. Not everyone works in huge multi nationals with HR depts and procedures for this that & the other.

In my examples above I didn't report either, I am a number of years younger than what you say your age is but not that much. Yes times and laws have changed from stuff that happened to me and in theory it either should no longer happen or reporting mechanisms are easier but you still get youngsters especially who would not have the confidence to report. If I was the same person now that I was at 17 there is no way I could have gone to some senior person years old than me and make a complaint. At best I would have told my Dad


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

I think things are blown out of proportion quite alot and the papers do not help. 
I remember when i was at school i was sent home because i had worn a black bra under a white shirt. It was a honest mistake, my white ones were in the wash. I was then suspended for a whole week because i had been inconsiderate when wearing the black bra to school. This annoyed me quite a bit as i had offered to just put my jumper back on, even tho it was boiling hot. 
I was also very shocked when my much younger sister came home with a letter from school saying that any form of touching was now not allowed in school. It listed holding hands, kissing, and cuddling. It was seen as so silly by all the parents it made the local news. 
They said it had come about because of a Innocent mistake from a pupil at the school and this way it would ensure none of the pupils made a mistake like this again. 
I think both women and men need to be protected from unwanted advances but i do think that some really serious assaults are treated far to lightly and then minor mistakes are blown well out of proportion.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> I don't encounter many 9 year olds in the workplace.


 debate properly I was using this as an example of age appropriate


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> debate properly I was using this as an example of age appropriate


It's a pretty poor example.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Firstly to Rabbitmonkee I apologise if I upset you, I did not intend to belittle how you felt by the incident. Not sure how to word it properly without upsetting you more but what I am trying to say if there is a catch all "sexual assault" statement that covers some old (or young) person leering and having a gawp down your top however inappropriate and however uncomfortable and embarrased it makes you feel should that be classed on the same scale as something much more sinister and physically threatening?
> 
> Previously I gave an example of how embarrassed I felt by inappropriate comments a chap made when I was in my teens, I was terribly shy and not able to think of some witty put down. It wasn't funny and it wasn't nice but it was no way any kind of assault.
> 
> Now when I was in my mid twenties an exec director came across me in the kitchen at work, I was alone with him and he made incredibly inappropriate comments, can't remember what it was but at the time there was a film where a couple enjoyed a bit of passion on the kitchen sink :huh:, saves washing up I suppose as they broke the dishes! Whilst pinned against the sink I was informed my legs were long enough to make that a reality and he attempted to hoist me up onto said sink - now that was bloody frightening as his intentions were clear. I was petrified, luckily by then I was a much stronger person and just quietly said my husband is 6' 7" a builder and not afraid to use his fists, get your hands off me now or he will break every bone in your body :nonod:


Thanks for clearing that up DR, I apologise for overreacting, I've had such a rubbish night


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> It's a pretty poor example.


But it proves the point !

Age is a factor on both sides ...,as doodlerules just pointed out ...how She reacted to an incident when She was younger is different to how She would now ....with age comes knowledge, wisdom,confidence ... hence the saying "you are old enough to know better"


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Some of your points have been sensible and valid *but this fixation with whether you report or not makes you culpabile for what has happened are not the real world. *Not everyone works in huge multi nationals with HR depts and procedures for this that & the other.
> 
> In my examples above I didn't report either, I am a number of years younger than what you say your age is but not that much. Yes times and laws have changed from stuff that happened to me and in theory it either should no longer happen or reporting mechanisms are easier but you still get youngsters especially who would not have the confidence to report. If I was the same person now that I was at 17 there is no way I could have gone to some senior person years old than me and make a complaint. At best I would have told my Dad


I'm sorry you feel like that because it is a point I feel strongly about, and in making it I am careful to distinguish between harassment and assault. The majority of examples cited have related to some form of harassment and I feel strongly that they should be reported. By not complaining unacceptable boorish behaviour is allowed to continue unchecked and so there is in fact an element of culpability. Maybe you are confusing culpability with condonement? I'm certainly NOT suggesting that those who don't report are condoning their own harassment.

Sexual assault is a different matter and it is easier to accept that the nature of the assault might leave victims feeling traumatised and unwilling or unable to report the offence. Even so I think that a great shame. If some of Mr Savile's victims had been able to find the courage to report, how much suffering might have been prevented? If reporting harassment became a culture, the reporting of assaults may eventually seem easier for some of those unfortunate enough to be victims.

Telling your Dad is a form of reporting. I know for a fact that if my daughter told me she was being sexually harassed at work that I would be in her employers HR department ASAP.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> But it proves the point !
> 
> Age is a factor on both sides ...,as doodlerules just pointed out ...how She reacted to an incident when She was younger is different to how She would now ....with age comes knowledge, wisdom,confidence ... hence the saying "you are old enough to know better"


I'm not clear as to our message here. You appear to be suggesting that an 18 year old behaving inappropriately is less guilty than a 50 year old doing or saying exactly the same thing. That is ageist discrimination. The law of the land, thankfully does not agree with you if that is indeed what you are suggesting.

Oh I should add that there are reasons why 9 year olds are not considered to be criminally responsible, but 18 year olds are.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Telling your Dad is a form of reporting. I know for a fact that if my daughter told me she was being sexually harassed at work that I would be in her employers HR department ASAP.


I have worked for a long time now, never anywhere with HR department.

I was lucky to have a fabulous family not everyone either has a dad around or supportive family. My dad is old now and was always old fashioned but a great man - as I say never had a HR dept anywhere I have worked. One winter we had awful snow (I worked in town but lived in a semi rural area) boss would not let me go home because it wasn't too bad in town despite a warning from my mum. any way had the call that buses were off and I couldn't get home I was 16. Boss said he would drive me home, six miles away he was horrified as the snow was so bad so said he couldn't take me any further and I would have to walk :huh: It took me two hours, my dad went ballistic rang the boss the next day - to this day I don't know what he said but I was given the rest of the week off and was paid, those were the days before all the employment rights and you could be sacked for nothing.



Cromford said:


> I'm not clear as to our message here. You appear to be suggesting that an 18 year old behaving inappropriately is less guilty than a 50 year old doing or saying exactly the same thing. That is ageist discrimination. The law of the land, thankfully does not agree with you if that is indeed what you are suggesting.


Am sure you know full well thats not what Suzy meant - it was to do with a very shy 18 year old reporting something or not


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> I have worked for a long time now, never anywhere with HR department.
> 
> I was lucky to have a fabulous family not everyone either has a dad around or supportive family. My dad is old now and was always old fashioned but a great man - as I say never had a HR dept anywhere I have worked. One winter we had awful snow (I worked in town but lived in a semi rural area) boss would not let me go home because it wasn't too bad in town despite a warning from my mum. any way had the call that buses were off and I couldn't get home I was 16. Boss said he would drive me home, six miles away he was horrified as the snow was so bad so said he couldn't take me any further and I would have to walk :huh: It took me two hours, my dad went ballistic rang the boss the next day - to this day I don't know what he said but I was given the rest of the week off and was paid, those were the days before all the employment rights and you could be sacked for nothing.
> 
> Am sure you know full well thats not what Suzy meant - it was to do with a very shy 18 year old reporting something or not


The first point is that there are options available if you feel you can't report the issues directly to your employer. Family, union reps, legal representation etc.

Secondly, HR dept or not is an irrelevance. If the harassment came from the owner and CEO of a small enterprise you can go directly to a tribunal or the police. I appreciate that in this case the harassment may need to be severe before a victim would risk having their employers company closed down, but the option is there.

Finally it was absolutely NOT clear that that is what Suzy meant. We were in fact debating Rabbitmonkee's contention that age is a factor in what constitutes acceptable or unacceptable behaviour.

I admit I will from time to time confuse threads within the thread, so I will sometimes drop a clanger. It's inevitable when you find yourself engaged in 3 or 4 different aspects of the wider debate.

I will say that the debate is now one with diminishing returns. I feel the same ground is being covered time upon time, so I am close to bailing out.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I disagree a child of 9 can commit a crime and not be tried the same as if they were seventeen ......age is a massive factor as supposedly the older u are the more u shud know on how to behave .


A child of 9 can't be tried full stop. The age of criminal responsibility is 10 and should a 9 year old do something, the police are currently powerless to pursue. Once they hit 10 and commit a crime, then they can pursue.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> I'm not clear as to our message here. You appear to be suggesting that an 18 year old behaving inappropriately is less guilty than a 50 year old doing or saying exactly the same thing. That is ageist discrimination. The law of the land, thankfully does not agree with you if that is indeed what you are suggesting.
> 
> Oh I should add that there are reasons why 9 year olds are not considered to be criminally responsible, but 18 year olds are.


Good morning!

I see you are "assuming" again ......

An inappropriate act is inappropriate whatever age -

I am merely pointing out that age can be a factor in how the victim interprets that behaviour - especially when it comes to harrassment.

A young girl of 18 say who is being sexually harrassed will more than likely deal with the harrassment completely differently to someone who is age 30/40


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

WelshOneEmma said:


> A child of 9 can't be tried full stop. The age of criminal responsibility is 10 and should a 9 year old do something, the police are currently powerless to pursue. Once they hit 10 and commit a crime, then they can pursue.


I know - I was using this as an example that in our society age does bear relevance in many things including harrassment


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I know - I was using this as an example that in our society age does bear relevance in many things including harrassment


Sorry Suzy but it either bears relevance or it does not. I'm saying that harassment is harassment provided of course that we are not getting ridiculous and dragging children under the age of criminal responsibility into the debate in order to try to make a point.

The original context of this was that rabbitmonkee was inferring that she felt more violated because the guy that molested her was much older than her. I'm sorry, but I just don't get that at all.

The other side of the coin, which is that younger women might find it more difficult to cope with or report harassment than an older more worldly wise women....sure I can imagine that in some cases that might be true but it is a sweeping generalisation and it underplays the trauma that an 'older' women subjected to harassment goes through.

We agree that harassment is harassment but we go in different directions in relation to the relevance of the age of the victim or the age of the perpetrator. These to me are largely irrelevant, unless of course you start to involve minors in your argument.

Digressing, it's a sad anniversary for me today and I'm going running to mark the occasion. Apologies if I don't reply until later. In the meantime have a good day and I'll catch up with our debate later.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

there is lot of things muddled up and it is worring...like a boy of 10 who was puut on sex offender list beacuse he went to girls bathroom and I think tried to steal a peek and so on...
On one hand especially with teens you must be careful as they are minor..but often quite sexually active and false accusations have happened...against exboyfriends or teachers...
Very dirty waters are those and one must extremely careful ...


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> An inappropriate act is inappropriate whatever age -
> 
> I am merely pointing out that age can be a factor in how the victim interprets that behaviour - especially when it comes to harrassment.
> 
> A young girl of 18 say who is being sexually harrassed will more than likely deal with the harrassment completely differently to someone who is age 30/40


I agree with this.

My example is NOT demonstrating assault, merely how differently things can be perceived depending who the person is.

There is an elderly guy who used to come into the store I worked in before I moved. He'd make jokes about getting into bed with me type thing and I could chuckle along with him because I didn't think he meant any harm, his wife was usually somewhere in the shop when he was saying it etc.

But then we had this other guy about 40. Because all our card readers were new you had to push the card in so that it 'clicks' into place (old readers you just slot the card in and it wont click when its in the right place). Anyway, it was common place for us to go 'oh could you just push your card up a little further please'. This guy had said to a number of our female CA's (but not any of the male ones) 'that's what my wife says, harder, harder, just shove it in' and would wink after he said it.

That proper creeped a lot of us out and if they both slapped our arses, the old guy would have been told its not appropriate don't do it, and the younger guy would have been banned from the shop full stop there and then by security.

Age does have an impact whether it should or not. On a physical level the elderly chap would be so much more unlikely to be able to cause any physical harm.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

And we all used to say as well, that if the elderly chap was 20 years younger and didn't have his wife with him we would be rather on edge/unwilling to chat to him. Age massively affects it.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Sorry Suzy but it either bears relevance or it does not. I'm saying that harassment is harassment provided of course that we are not getting ridiculous and dragging children under the age of criminal responsibility into the debate in order to try to make a point.
> 
> The original context of this was that rabbitmonkee was inferring that she felt more violated because the guy that molested her was much older than her. I'm sorry, but I just don't get that at all.
> 
> ...


I am not undermining anyone of any age who goes thru sexual harrassment or assault - Iam pointing out that HOW they deal with it could be and most probably will be different due to their age!!!

The age of the perp is relevant too! - if a young 17yr old is being harrassed by someone who is 50 - they may be more reluctant to report because they think it is more likely they will not be believed! so age is relevant!!

Because he is so much older and experienced - she may feel he has more influence in the workplace, she may feel people will look up to him and believe him because of his age - she may be intimidated because of his age and feel as a younger person she should still "respect" them - the list is endless

To say age bears no relevance is foolhardy especially to the victim as I would say its probably one of the main reasons for not reporting - (which is what your argument is all about) - especially for young girls.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm a middle aged nurse and was recently mentor to a very young male student who kept refering me as 'my dear' or 'my love'. 

Because of his age I found it quite amusing - it made him sound very old fashioned and quaint!

However i had to speak to him about it as i did feel that once he became older it would come across as patronising and someone was likely to complain.

Age is one of many factors that influences whether something is acceptable or not.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Street Harassment: Old Men Cat Calling Young Girls | Clutch Magazine

this is based in America but it can be identified to here as well


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

ameliajane said:


> I'm a middle aged nurse and was recently mentor to a very young male student who kept refering me as 'my dear' or 'my love'.
> 
> Because of his age I found it quite amusing - it made him sound very old fashioned and quaint!
> 
> ...


For goodness sakes we are talking about sexual harassment not whether or not you find someones choice of a term of endearment offensive.

The analogies being employed to try to prove a point are frankly ludicrous. First it was 9 year old perverts now it's the choice of phrase someone uses to try and appear friendly.

In Sheffield men call other men 'love'. I really have no idea what I should make of that based on some of the 'logic' on display in here.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> For goodness sakes we are talking about sexual harassment not whether or not you find someones choice of a term of endearment offensive.
> 
> The analogies being employed to try to prove a point are frankly ludicrous. First it was 9 year old perverts now it's the choice of phrase someone uses to try and appear friendly.
> 
> In Sheffield men call other men 'love'. I really have no idea what I should make of that based on some of the 'logic' on display in here.


I for one have never said 9yr old perverts!  I said a 9yr old can commit a crime - I did not mention what crime! - you are beginning to piss me off now to be quite frank with you - I think you would argue with your own bloody shadow! Do not EVER put words into my mouth please!

My final word on this thread cos I feel like you are flogging a dead horse is this - you may not like it but you dont seem to care about others feelings so why should I -

YOU really have IMO no right to remark on what other women term as sexual harrassment or not - everyones tolerance level is different and just because it does not offend YOU does not mean it does not offend others - who are you to determine that??? you will never know what it feels like to be a woman or girl who are for a large majority of time seen as objects of desire and not much more from your own sex so really I would not expect you to understand

Finally IF you have been thru some sort of harrassment wether it be sexual or not as you say you have then I would have thought you would be able to perhaps identify more and not be so hard about it all you would UNDERSTAND the reasoning behind some of the examples

I still stick FIRMLY by all I have said on here - and on that note I am now leaving this thread.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> *I am not undermining anyone of any age who goes thru sexual harrassment or assault -* I am pointing out that HOW they deal with it could be and most probably will be different due to their age!!!
> 
> The age of the perp is relevant too! - if a young 17yr old is being harrassed by someone who is 50 - they may be more reluctant to report because they think it is more likely they will not be believed! so age is relevant!!
> 
> ...


Oh but you ARE undermining. You are clearly suggesting that older victims are subject to less trauma, that they have fewer reasons to be fearful, or ashamed or intimidated and that they are therefore more likely to report incidents. This is such a sweeping generalisation. I'm all the more surprised by it because it comes from a woman.

I can see we will not have a meeting of minds on this so it is probably best we simply agree to differ. However in the hope it might make you reconsider I will make a couple of final remarks on this specific issue of age as a factor in determining what may or may not constitute sexual harassment.

You are clearly implying (perhaps unintentionally?) that it is acceptable for an older man or woman to be subject to a different test with different standards when it comes to determining what constitutes sexual harassment than their younger equivalents. There have been several remarks to the effect that X Y or Z would be more or less acceptable depending on the age of the offender. It may be the case that a younger woman will cry 'foul' and bring criminal charges against an older man for an act that she would brush off as merely distasteful or 'banter' if the self same act came from a younger man. The fact that the victim may discriminate on this basis does not mean the act is no longer harassment. It simply means the victim has a questionable sense of morality that allows him/her to discriminate against the elderly. Two wrongs do not make a right and in the eyes of the law the act would be harassment regardless of the age of the offender. If women genuinely want to put a halt to workplace harassment they surely can't encourage a mindset that allows young guys to get away with acts that they would deem to be criminal if the offender was older?

I also am bemused by your suggestion that older women are more likely to report harassment when this claim is set alongside other suggestions in this thread that 95% of ALL cases go unreported. I'm not sure I agree with that statistic and said so earlier when someone quoted it but if you are correct it would mean very few 'young' women report harassment at all.

I would also point out that the law disagrees with you. MP's and M'Learned friends have considered and debated this matter in order to formulate the relevant legislation. I am pleased to note that the legislation does not say that what might be acceptable coming from an 18 year old suddenly becomes sexual harassment if it is the act of an 80 year old. The law does not make such moral judgements on an ageist basis and I find it sad that some women seem to suggest that they, personally have no qualms about doing so.

I detect a mindset that would seem to offer comfort to the Esther Rantzens and Paul Gambocinni's of the world in relation to their shameful silence over Jimmy Savile. I'm sure you are a nice and decent person who would not intentionally wish to share that mindset and I hope that I can persuade you to reflect on your stance.

In case you are unaware, Gambocinni, claims that he was aware of allegations of necrophilia committed by Savile as far back as the 80's. He excuses his then silence with remarks such as "you didn't mess with Jimmy, he was the Guvnor". In effect he uses his (relatively) junior status to justify his silence and he would therefore be comforted by those that argue that it can be more difficult for younger/more junior people to report an offence. This is to completely ignore the severity of the offence, the trauma associated with it, and the likelihood of re-offending. What I see in the Gamboccini story, is a man apparently more wrapped-up in not upsetting the apple-cart of his career than he was concerned to expose allegations of extreme perversion from a man that was regularly in contact with children. His argument that he was junior and that 'you don't mess with Jimmy' is, in my opinion, morally repugnant.

Double standards, hypocrisy and discrimination linked to age or seniority have no place in an objective discussion on what constitutes harassment or abuse.

My argument has consistently been that we should strive for a culture in which people feel encouraged and empowered to report harassment and I hope that on that at least we can agree.

What was that saying about Men coming from Mars and Women from Venus?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I for one have never said 9yr old perverts!  I said a 9yr old can commit a crime - I did not mention what crime! -


You may not have been explicit about the crime, but your remark that a 9 year old can commit a crime must be seen in the context of the thread which is one discussing sexual abuse and sexual harassment. I told you when you said it that it was a bad analogy for this thread, but you chose to defend it.

Don't blame me that you are now annoyed if I continue to challenge its appropriateness.

I'm outta here. To much muddled thinking on such a contentious issue is not a healthy mix.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> You may not have been explicit about the crime, but your remark that a 9 year old can commit a crime must be seen in the context of the thread which is one discussing sexual abuse and sexual harassment. I told you when you said it that it was a bad analogy for this thread, but you chose to defend it.
> 
> Don't blame me that you are now annoyed if I continue to challenge its appropriateness.
> 
> I'm outta here. To much muddled thinking on such a contentious issue is not a healthy mix.


Thats the best comment you have made on this whole thread - oh and that you are probably from Mars


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Oh but you ARE undermining. You are clearly suggesting that older victims are subject to less trauma, that they have fewer reasons to be fearful, or ashamed or intimidated and that they are therefore more likely to report incidents. This is such a sweeping generalisation. I'm all the more surprised by it because it comes from a woman.
> 
> I can see we will not have a meeting of minds on this so it is probably best we simply agree to differ. However in the hope it might make you reconsider I will make a couple of final remarks on this specific issue of age as a factor in determining what may or may not constitute sexual harassment.
> 
> ...


Bingo!!! maybe you are getting it  this is probably correct!!!! so everything I have said makes perfect sense


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Bingo!!! maybe you are getting it  this is probably correct!!!! *so everything I have said makes perfect sense*


Sadly, to you, it would appear that it does. Nothing like a bit of self delusional praise eh?

My remark about the possibility of differing male and female perspectives was intended to be conciliatory but it does not surprise me that you respond with an intended insult. I have commented on the levels of misandry on display in this thread so I'm neither surprised or offended.

Write Mr Gamboccini a letter of support for his actions. He might be one man that would feel happy to agree with you're mindset.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Sadly, to you, it would appear that it does. Nothing like a bit of self delusional praise eh?
> 
> My remark about the possibility of differing male and female perspectives was intended to be conciliatory but it does not surprise me that you respond with an intended insult. I have commented on the levels of misandry on display in this thread so I'm neither surprised or offended.
> 
> Write Mr Gamboccini a letter of support for his actions. He might be one man that would feel happy to agree with you're mindset.


Could I ask......Do you always believe you are right and also what is your current employment?


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Could I ask......Do you always believe you are right and also what is your current employment?


....... skirts around it everytime it has been asked.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

tincan said:


> ....... skirts around it everytime it has been asked.


I'm just interested because he seems to know an awful lot about the legal system. I wondered what capacity a home worker could draw their knowledge from .


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> In Sheffield men call other men 'love'. I really have no idea what I should make of that based on some of the 'logic' on display in here.


Perhaps what you can take from it is that things are not always as black and white as you want them to be.

Time and time again throughout this thread you have read of cases where women have been unable to report abuses or have reported and no action or inadequate action has been taken. Over and over you have agreed and conceded these individual cases. You even have evidence from your own personal experience of not being listened to.

Your point seems to be that people must report abuses - which none would disagree with but the evidence in front of you is that this is not always possible for all sorts of personal, circumstantial and organisational reasons and even where it is reported it is not always taken seriously.

Of course this doesn't mean that people (and realistically this is usually going to mean women) should not report abuses, however it does mean that encouraging women to speak out, on it's own, is an inadequate response to a complex issue and is not going to make the problem go away.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Sadly, to you, it would appear that it does. Nothing like a bit of self delusional praise eh?
> 
> My remark about the possibility of differing male and female perspectives was intended to be conciliatory but it does not surprise me that you respond with an intended insult. I have commented on the levels of misandry on display in this thread so I'm neither surprised or offended.
> 
> Write Mr Gamboccini a letter of support for his actions. He might be one man that would feel happy to agree with you're mindset.


You know nothing about my mindset so dont judge me

I still stand by my thoughts of age relevance - it has nothing to do with being ageist its a fact of life -age has relevance in everyday life so will obviously factor in things like this - the fact you dont see this is astounding.

To prove my point lets take a look at Sexual Assault/Rape

Look at these statistics - bear in mind it is from 2005 and is US but that aside im sure the figures would be similar today if not more so and country should not really make a difference

Rape / Sexual Assault Statistics - Yello Dyno

Now let me just highlight a few of these please note i have also highlighted in red particular points about age association/relevance -

Nearly all forcible rapes (99%) involved female victims.

In the later juvenile years (ages 14 to 17), the female victimization rates are at least 10 times greater than the male rates for similar age groups.

Overall, 23% of sexual assault offenders were under the 18 and 77% were adults.

Nearly all the offenders in sexual assaults reported to law enforcement were male (96%).

Most (70%) of the sexual assaults reported to law enforcement occurred in the residence of the victim, the offender, or the residence of another individual. Young victims were generally more likely to be victimized in a residence than were older victims. The age of the victim was strongly relate to where the assault occurred.

The year in a male's life when he is most likely to be the victim of a sexual assault is age 4.

The risk of being the victim of forcible rape increased dramatically form age 10 to age 14, where it peaked.

Over two-thirds (67%) of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies, were juveniles (under the age fo 18 at the time of the crime). More than half of all juvenile victims were under age 12. That is, 33% of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement were ages 12 through 17 and 34% were under age 12. Most disturbing is that one of every seven victims of sexual assault ( or 14% of all victims) reported to law enforcement agencies were under age 6.

About 80% of rape victims were under age 30--about 1/2 of these were under age 18. Victims younger than 12 accounted for 15% of those raped, and another 29% of rape victims were between 12 and 17.

For nearly 90% of the youngest victims of rape, those younger than 12, the offender was someone known to them.

Just over 40% of the rapists were age 30 or older, while 1 in 8 was under age 18. In 9 out of 10 rapes in which the offender was under 18, so was the victim.

While 9 out of 10 rape victims are women, men and boys are also victimized by this crime. In 1995, 32,130 males age 12 and older were victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.

In 1996, only 31% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials - less than one in every three.

Do you see a common theme here?? all of these statistics have age in them as relevant

This is what I have been trying to point out to a certain someone who is twisting my words to make me out to be a ageist feminist.

LOOK at the facts - and those facts prove that AGE is used in Sexual Abuse/Assault as a tool /weapon - to overpower/intimidate/control victims

If this is the case for Sexual Assualt/Abuse then surely it stands that AGE can be used as a weapon in Sexual Harrassment???

That blows your theory sky high IMO!

I am sorry if this post offends anyone who has suffered abuse but I wanted to show Mr C that some of his theories are way off the mark and all I have tried to do on this thread is show my support to the victim and that a lot of what he says is absolute waffle - tell that to mr gambucyywanadoo what ever his name is


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> You know nothing about my mindset so dont judge me
> 
> I still stand by my thoughts of age relevance - it has nothing to do with being ageist its a fact of life -age has relevance in everyday life so will obviously factor in things like this - the fact you dont see this is astounding.
> 
> ...


only some Suzy?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Oh God.....mindsets.....lol

smack my arse, pinch my bum, kiss me quick...come on Peggy!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> You know nothing about my mindset so dont judge me
> 
> I still stand by my thoughts of age relevance - it has nothing to do with being ageist its a fact of life -age has relevance in everyday life so will obviously factor in things like this - the fact you dont see this is astounding.
> 
> ...


A collection of statistics that has absolutely no relevance to whether or not a victim of sexual harassment or sexual assault copes more or less effectively by virtue of their age which is what you initially postulated. Yes it is you doing the theorising and you seek to support your claims by trundling out irrelevancies about 9 year olds and/or rape statistics that you quite clearly do not understand and are incapable of interpreting in their proper context.

I'll point out just one example of your rush to draw wholly unsubstantiated conclusions from the above analysis.

One of the more pertinent statistics you offer up as evidence to support your theory (that older men use age as a weapon to intimidate their victims and that this makes their age relevant) is this;

"Overall, 23% of sexual assault offenders were under the 18 and 77% were adults".

Now what proportion of the male population do you think are under the age of 18 and how many would you assume to be older? Would you like to guess? No?

Never mind, I've done you a favour and researched that for you. You'll find the numbers here;

United States Demographics Profile 2012

The age groupings don't precisely match those of your report, but it would appear that the number of males in the USA who are under the age of 18 is ahem...rather close to 23% of the total male populace. You following me so far?

Now given that that portion of the populace also contains a group of pre-pubescent males that even by your definition of the age of criminal responsibility cannot be reasonably classified as potential rapists ....well I'm beginning to see whose theorising is being blown 'out of the water', and let me assure you, it isnt mine.

What those statistics actually suggest is that there is a disproportionately large number of rapists in the under 18 age grouping. What they suggest is that older men do not 'use their age as a weapon' to intimidate or overpower victims as they are a disproportionatly LOW proportion of the statistical populace.

You ageism, based upon your own 'evidence' has no statistical basis to set alongside the lack of moral basis.

It would serve you well if you attempted to rationally analyse data before leaping to emotive conclusions that your own evidence DOES NOT support. Failing to do that runs the risk that you end up looking foolish.

One more word of advice, it doesn't make sense to bandy statistics with someone that understands them and uses them professionally. You tend to end up with egg on your face.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

What u fail to see is that these statistics are based on sexual offences that were reported drrrrr so 23% were under 18 and 77% were adults it has sweet eff all to do with population pmsl u really do crack me up    ....so tell us what is it u do again ? U still haven't answered lavs question ......wonder why? Now not only are u a victim of abuse but as soon as someone puts stats up yr a statistict analasyst too!  do me a favour pmsl 

I've proved my point and lots of peopl e hav agreed with me ....now I'm off to bed nite nite sleep tight


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> What u fail to see is that these statistics are based on sexual offences that were reported drrrrr so 23% were under 18 and 77% were adults it has sweet eff all to do with population pmsl u really do crack me up    ....so tell us what is it u do again ? U still haven't answered lavs question ......wonder why? Now not only are u a victim of abuse but as soon as someone puts stats up yr a statistict analasyst too!  do me a favour pmsl
> 
> I've proved my point and lots of peopl e hav agreed with me ....now I'm off to bed nite nite sleep tight


I don't normally resort to the use of 'smilies' but this 'response' deserves one.

:biggrin:


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Could I ask......Do you always believe you are right and also what is your current employment?


I generally believe I am right when my opponents are incapable of coherent thought and no you may not ask what my current employment is.

There you go Suzy....


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Mate your a plumber. Provided you take your biggest plunger with you, you should have nothing to fear.
....... and there ends the academic eloquence , which the ladies are not privy to within this thread...... :hand:


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> I generally believe I am right when my opponents are incapable of coherent thought and no you may not ask what my current employment is.
> 
> There you go Suzy....


Just as I thought. Thank you for your cooperation .


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Just as I thought. Thank you for your cooperation .


Your welcome. Your recognition could be your first step to recovery. Congratulations.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Incapable, Incoherent , Delusional, Hysterical, ... and the list goes on .... all aimed at women !!!!! Tut tut , May i suggest you take a long hard look in a mirror ,and see yourself for what you are.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Just as I thought. Thank you for your cooperation .


go on lavenderb, take 3 guesses. i reckon a politician, no other people come out with such [email protected] even with the statistics to prove their arguement invalid. who else would argue that black is actually white and grass isnt green.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

CRL said:


> go on lavenderb, take 3 guesses. i reckon a politician, no other people come out with such [email protected] even with the statistics to prove their arguement invalid. who else would argue that black is actually white and grass isnt green.


How many politicians do you know who sit on a pet forum for hours and hours?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

tincan said:


> *Incapable, Incoherent , Delusional, Hysterical,* ... and the list goes on .... all aimed at women !!!!! Tut tut , May i suggest you take a long hard look in a mirror ,and see yourself for what you are.


When did you meet my mother?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tincan said:


> Incapable, Incoherent , Delusional, Hysterical, ... and the list goes on .*... all aimed at women* !!!!! Tut tut , May i suggest you take a long hard look in a mirror ,and see yourself for what you are.


If you are telling me the ageist and misandric opinions so widely expounded on this thread belong to women, then I guess you are right.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> How many politicians do you know who sit on a pet forum for hours and hours?


Ok your no politician. Seemed obvious to me.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

CRL said:


> go on lavenderb, take 3 guesses. i reckon a politician, no other people come out with such [email protected] *even with the statistics to prove their arguement invalid*. who else would argue that black is actually white and grass isnt green.


That's quite literally a rather pitiful statement.

I can see that any attempt at rational debate has been abandoned now. Fill your boots ladies.... (Doc martins I would guess).


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> That's quite literally a rather pitiful statement.
> 
> I can see that any attempt at rational debate has been abandoned now. Fill your boots ladies.... (Doc martins I would guess).


Don't be bitter princess, go and rinse your pop socks and calm down.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Don't be bitter princess, go and rinse your pop socks and calm down.


Don't worry, I'm very calm. There's only so much hysteria a thread can bear.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Cromford said:


> That's quite literally a rather pitiful statement.
> 
> I can see that any attempt at rational debate has been abandoned now. Fill your boots ladies.... *(Doc martins I would guess)*.


Why would you guess that?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Just a hunch..but feel free to speculate wildly.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm not speculating, wildly or otherwise.

I always ask questions if I want to know the answer. It's a shame you don't have one.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Cromford said:


> That's quite literally a rather pitiful statement. I can see that any attempt at rational debate has been abandoned now. Fill your boots ladies.... (Doc martins I would guess).


And so it continues.....


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> I'm not speculating, wildly or otherwise.
> 
> I always ask questions if I want to know the answer. It's a shame you don't have one.


Why? What would you like me to say?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

northnsouth said:


> And so it continues.....


It's lovely isn't it. The more that is written...the more the truth is revealed...the disguise is slipping.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> It's lovely isn't it. The more that is written...the more the truth is revealed...the disguise is slipping.


Really bored with him now though!

Did Janice get an answer do you think?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

northnsouth said:


> Really bored with him now though!
> 
> Did Janice get an answer do you think?


*I have kept up with this thread, and to be honest the answer is no.
It does sadden me to think that if, as a woman i still don't know what constitutes sexual assault, how are men supposed to know?
I also think, " some" women have made things worse for women in general, by being too fickle.*


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## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

I believe sexual assault is basically rape/unwanted foreplay/forcing a person to do something sexually that they do not want to do!

I don't think a smack on the backside is sexual assault, it is assault but not a sexual assault. Saying sexual things is harassment.


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

I have been following this thread from the start and knew that it would get very heated so I've not said anything as I don't like to get drawn into things but I have very strong views on this subject (from personal experience.)

Sexual assault in my opinion is rape, sexually touching, forcing someone to do something sexual that they do not want to do. 

Men making sexual/lewd comments is not sexual assault, it's not very nice but it is not sexual assault, it is sexual harrasment as the poster below says. If a man is in any way decent he would never say such things as he would know that it is wrong to treat another in such a manner. I am not condoning such behaviour, it is a really horrible experience and i've been on the receiving end of it many times, and as much as it made my skin crawl, I never saw it as a sexual assault. Smacking/groping my backside resulted in the stare of death/and or some harsh words which usually took him so much by surprise that they scuttled off. 

When I read up on what constitutes a sexual assault (years ago) and realised that a smack on the backside etc would come under sexual assault I actually felt sick to my stomach, cheated in some way but I can't articulate my feelings very well... I've been to the opposite end of the scale and felt that what I was reading was doing a real dis-service to those who have truly been sexually assaulted. I know I'm probably going to upset some who see harrassment and a grope of the backside in passing as a sexual assault but it's not... 

At the end of the day no one should even think about invading anothers personal space unless you know that person and are friends etc. We should all be able to work alongside others without worry of fear of harrasment, we should be able to walk past others without them having a feel but the world doesn't work that way..


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> Really bored with him now though!
> 
> Did Janice get an answer do you think?


Excellent.

The feeling is mutual. It does become frustrating debating with a small gaggle that see the subject as little more than an excuse to tar all men with the same brush or to display their ageist and/or misandric agendas and that ignore the advice of independent organisations and legal experts when it does not suit their agenda. If they compound this by an inability to read their own 'evidence' correctly, the things become tedious pretty quickly.

Janice. In my view the tendency to extreme political correctness is a blight on society. The latest poster CharleyRogan has I think provided a concise and reasonable summary of what should be the broad definition but context can be everything in matters such as this and it is not realistic to have a universal and inflexible definition. Ultimately it is a subjective matter and that is why we have judges and jury's.

As far as sexual harassment is concerned, particularly sexual harassment in the workplace, we should be striving to establish a culture in which it is socially unacceptable and people, be they victims or witnesses, feel encouraged to report. I think the policies of most larger companies already do this. Systems and support structures ARE in place and it is simply incorrect for some to claim they don't exist and to use this as justification not to report.

Those accused have rights too, and this includes the right to refute the accusations against them. There are cases where victims will take it upon themselves to define something as sexual harassment that an objective observer would see as inoffensive. It is clearly wrong that the accused can have their reputations and lifes ruined by such wilful accusations and be denied the opportunity to challenge their accusers. As I said earlier alongside rights, there must be responsibilities. If a victim exercises his/her right to accuse, then they have a responsibility to their colleagues to report the issue.

It is unacceptable to have the courage to spread a wilful and damaging rumour about an individual or an organisation, but then to claim to be 'too intimidated' to deny the accused the right to defend themselves.

I now expect to be rounded on once more by the usual suspects that claim to be bored by me.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Excellent.
> 
> The feeling is mutual. It does become frustrating debating with a small gaggle that see the subject as little more than an excuse to tar all men with the same brush or to display their ageist and/or misandric agendas and that ignore the advice of independent organisations and legal experts when it does not suit their agenda. If they compound this by an inability to read their own 'evidence' correctly, the things become tedious pretty quickly.
> 
> ...


*I for one have been pleased to read your replies.So than you for your input.
I could, had i wished to, listed quite a few of my own experiences on the subject.
I don't see myself as a victim,and if anything my experiences, have taught me how to deal with unwanted attention.
As i have said before, i think women have been their own worst enemies.
*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I for one have been pleased to read your replies.So than you for your input.
> I could, had i wished to, listed quite a few of my own experiences on the subject.
> I don't see myself as a victim,and if anything my experiences, have taught me how to deal with unwanted attention.
> As i have said before, i think women have been their own worst enemies.
> *


Thank you Janice.

I have on the whole tried to be objective, reasonable and stick to facts. Sadly there have been some responses that have made this difficult.

I find it quite remarkable that some have had the audacity to question my status as a victim. As best I can see they have done so simply because they do not like the opinions I have expressed. One wonders if they would have done the same were I a woman? There are some pretty unsavoury attitudes on display and those displaying them seem to be in denial.

Appreciate you remark and I think it best that I make no further contributions unless of course, I come under personal attack again.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Just a hunch..but feel free to speculate wildly.


Never owned a pair of doc martins in my life :hand::hand:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I for one have been pleased to read your replies.So than you for your input.
> I could, had i wished to, listed quite a few of my own experiences on the subject.
> I don't see myself as a victim,and if anything my experiences, have taught me how to deal with unwanted attention.
> As i have said before, i think women have been their own worst enemies.
> *


Does that entitle them to being assualted though Jan?? -


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Does that entitle them to being assualted though Jan?? -


*Of course not Suzy. But, just reading this thread we can't even agree on what we would class as sexual assault.
Years ago, there use to be a term for certain women that acted in a certain way, then complained when they got the attention they " didn't" want.
In the link i put in my first post, it stated,""The Act makes this quite complex to
define. The Act does not include a list of
actions which are considered sexual, but
the approach to determining this is set out.
Basically, there are two categories of acts
which are sexual for the purposes of this
law".*


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

IrishEyes said:


> I have been following this thread from the start and knew that it would get very heated so I've not said anything as I don't like to get drawn into things but I have very strong views on this subject (from personal experience.)
> 
> Sexual assault in my opinion is rape, sexually touching, forcing someone to do something sexual that they do not want to do.
> 
> ...


I understand completely, that is what I was trying to say way back on this thread. By classing a pinch on the bum the same, it diminishes just how serious sexual assult can be


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Does that entitle them to being assualted though Jan?? -


Well I think we would need to know the specifics of the individual case to make a judgement as to whether

A) they were in fact assaulted

And

B) they acted irresponsibly by knowingly putting themselves at risk or by provoking the "assault".

True to type though you simply can't avoid making another sweeping generalisation drawn from your filing cabinet of cliches headed "Women always innocent....Men always guilty".

Sorry Janice, I know I said I would comment no further but some folks just provoke an response by deign of their sheer unadulterated absurdity.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Of course not Suzy. But, just reading this thread we can't even agree on what we would class as sexual assault.
> Years ago, there use to be a term for certain women that acted in a certain way, then complained when they got the attention they " didn't" want.
> In the link i put in my first post, it stated,""The Act makes this quite complex to
> define. The Act does not include a list of
> ...


I agree that lines are blurred Jan - and it becomes complicated because as we have previously touched on women have different ideas/thresholds on what is sexual banter/flirting/harrassment/assualt - I still think it depends on what makes the person "uncomfortable" - no one has a right to say to me that is not sexual harrassment so you are wrong.

I found this last night -

Sexual harassment is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors.

The term sexual assault is used, in public discourse, as a generic term that is defined as any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any sexual touching of a person who has not consented.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Well I think we would need to know the specifics of the individual case to make a judgement as to whether
> 
> A) they were in fact assaulted
> 
> ...


Im not disputing that some women lie but that is not what this thread is about - we are for the most part talking about those who ARE sexually assualted/harrassed.

So are you saying that if a woman/man acts irresponsibly then its their fault that someone attacks them???  how do women/girls "provoke" sexual assault???


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think you should read this 

Women who are sexually assaulted asked for it by the way they dress or act.
Fact: The notion that women ask for it is a classic way to displace the blame from the offender to the victim. If a woman is sexually assaulted, it is NOT their fault. A woman NEVER asks or deserves to be sexually assaulted regardless of how they dress or act.

Myth: Rape is the victims fault: If she didnt want to do it, why did she go to his place? She knew what kind of guy he was! You know how she gets when shes drunk.  Oh, she sleeps around.
Fact: Statements such as these put the blame on the victim and not on the offender. Rape is never the victims fault. Even if she did something that puts her in a vulnerable position, she did not ask to be sexually assaulted.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I agree that lines are blurred Jan - and it becomes complicated because as we have previously touched on women have different ideas/thresholds on what is sexual banter/flirting/harrassment/assualt - *I still think it depends on what makes the person "uncomfortable" - no one has a right to say to me that is not sexual harrassment so you are wrong.
> *
> I found this last night -
> 
> ...


"He touched my arm officer....it made me feel "uncomfortable". I demand you arrest him and ruin his and his families life's. Nobody has a right to tell me I'm wrong or to deny me this. It is my inalienable right as a woman".


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Never owned a pair of doc martins in my life :hand::hand:


Apparently it has some significance

I have several. One pair was bright purple.....I love them.. very good for dog walking.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> I think you should read this
> 
> Women who are sexually assaulted asked for it by the way they dress or act.
> Fact: The notion that women ask for it is a classic way to displace the blame from the offender to the victim. If a woman is sexually assaulted, it is NOT their fault. A woman NEVER asks or deserves to be sexually assaulted regardless of how they dress or act.
> ...


*Ok Suzy here's a scenario...A group of women go out and have a few drinks. They end up 3 parts cut, end up in the street where a few guys are there, feeling as merry and up for a laugh, just like the girls.
Now one or more of the girls flash their boobs, a guy in fun goes and touches.
Is this sexual assault? or are both parties to blame?*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> "He touched my arm officer....it made me feel "uncomfortable". I demand you arrest him and ruin his and his families life's. Nobody has a right to tell me I'm wrong or to deny me this. It is my inalienable right as a woman".


You are being pedantic - I doubt many women would feel uncomfortable if someone touches their arm accidently or in brushing past them etc - BUT If someone was touching me on my arm in a suggestive manner and I had asked them to stop repeatedly then it would start to make me feel uncomfortable - would I call the police? unlikely I would probably knee him in his balls and tell him to get out of my personal space - but that is ME - someone else may feel more violated


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Im not disputing that some women lie but that is not what this thread is about - we are for the most part talking about those who ARE sexually assualted/harrassed.
> 
> *So are you saying that if a woman/man acts irresponsibly then its their fault that someone attacks them???  how do women/girls "provoke" sexual assault???*


Well again it depends on the specifics of the case. Do try and avoid your proclivity to generalise. It is absurd, unhelpful and betrays your lack of analytical thought.

Let me give you a hypothetical example.

Woman fancies next door neighbour and invites him round for tea and 'afternoon delight' whilst husband is at work.

Husband returns from work unexpectedly. Woman cries 'foul' and neighbour finds himself up on a charge of rape.

I think any right minded person would feel that the woman acted irresponsibly and that she provoked the "assault". ....but you are not reasonable.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok Suzy here's a scenario...A group of women go out and have a few drinks. They end up 3 parts cut, end up in the street where a few guys are there, feeling as merry and up for a laugh, just like the girls.
> Now one or more of the girls flash their boobs, a guy in fun goes and touches.
> Is this sexual assault? or are both parties to blame?*


No its not sexual assault until the girl says stop - and he does not - my point is that yes girls can be teases - hell I have done it myself in my day but that still does not warrant a bloke going that extra step and touching without permission


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Well again it depends on the specifics of the case. Do try and avoid your proclivity to generalise. It is absurd, unhelpful and betrays your lack of analytical thought.
> 
> Let me give you a hypothetical example.
> 
> ...


But he did not assault her so this bears no relevance


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Well again it depends on the specifics of the case. Do try and avoid your proclivity to generalise.* It is absurd, unhelpful and betrays your lack of analytical thought. *Let me give you a hypothetical example. Woman fancies next door neighbour and invites him round for tea and 'afternoon delight' whilst husband is at work. *Husband returns from work unexpectedly. Woman cries 'foul' and neighbour finds himself up on a charge of rape*. I think any right minded person would feel that the woman acted irresponsibly and that she provoked the "assault". ....but you are not reasonable.


That is not provoking an attack, that is getting caught out and making a false accusation!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> No its not sexual assault until the girl says stop - and he does not - my point is that yes girls can be teases - hell I have done it myself in my day but that still does not warrant a bloke going that extra step and touching without permission


*But what if she didn't have time to say no until after it happened?
Sorry but i'd say she was as much to blame as the bloke.*


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## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But what if she didn't have time to say no until after it happened?
> Sorry but i'd say she was as much to blame as the bloke.*


If you don't want to do something like that you say no. Its not fair on a bloke if he is not told that his actions are not warranted, they aren't mind readers!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *But what if she didn't have time to say no until after it happened?
> Sorry but i'd say she was as much to blame as the bloke.*


I would not say blame I would say both parties are naieve - her for thinking she could do that and not have male attention and him for thinking this gave him the ok to touch

I am not disputing that there are women out there who cock tease Jan - they are playing on the fact that most men think with their dicks before engaging their brain - does not make it right but IMO if young women need to learn to be more responsible and check their actions then so should men learn to have some self control.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> You are being pedantic - I doubt many women would feel uncomfortable if someone touches their arm accidently or in brushing past them etc - BUT If someone was touching me on my arm in a suggestive manner and I had asked them to stop repeatedly then it would start to make me feel uncomfortable - would I call the police? unlikely I would probably knee him in his balls and tell him to get out of my personal space - but that is ME - someone else may feel more violated


It is perfectly reasonable to be pedantic in response to your generalisations.

Define "uncomfortable" for me in a universally applicable way that all women would agree with and all men can understand.

What constitutes "suggestive" in relation to touching an arm? Do all women agree with this?

How many times do I need to touch the arm before it becomes sexual assault?

Why is the first touch not sexual assault but the second one is?

What if my second touch is "different" to the first in that I believe it is no longer "suggestive".

How many requests to stop become "repeated" requests?

The bottom line here is that you believe it is a woman's prerogative as an individual to define what does and what does not constitute sexual assault.

It is a point of view. Thankfully it is one rejected by society as a whole.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> No its not sexual assault until the girl says stop - and he does not - my point is that yes girls can be teases - hell I have done it myself in my day but that still does not warrant a bloke going that extra step and touching without permission


Right you are.

There is no possibility that the manner in which the women flashes her boobs could be misconstrued as a direct invite to get intimate....No possibility of this at all?

If that is your opinion presumably you would be quite happy to see women that do this type of thing routinely arrested for indecent exposure? Or are you now going to argue that you have a right to flash but men who get theirs out in public are rightly criminalised?


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Right you are. There is no possibility that the manner in which the women flashes her boobs could be misconstrued as a direct invite to get intimate....No possibility of this at all? If that is your opinion presumably you would be quite happy to see women that do this type of thing routinely arrested for indecent exposure?* Or are you now going to argue that you have a right to flash but men who get theirs out in public are rightly criminalised*?


No this is an example of double standards that sadly do exist.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Right you are.
> 
> There is no possibility that the manner in which the women flashes her boobs could be misconstrued as a direct invite to get intimate....No possibility of this at all?
> 
> If that is your opinion presumably you would be quite happy to see women that do this type of thing routinely arrested for indecent exposure? Or are you now going to argue that you have a right to flash but men who get theirs out in public are rightly criminalised?


NO I DONT think its a direct invite to get intimate and I am shocked and appalled that you think it is 

No I dont think women have a right to flash - personally I think it is tacky and degrading - I would be perfectly happy to see women arrested for indecent exposure


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> It is perfectly reasonable to be pedantic in response to your generalisations.
> 
> Define "uncomfortable" for me in a universally applicable way that all women would agree with and all men can understand.
> 
> ...


It has been proven over and over again on this thread that different women see harrassment in different ways - IF someone feels threatened or uncomfortable or afraid - REGARDLESS of the action - then they have a right to complain !!! does it constitute sexual assault - well no because sexual assault is when someone has vaginal interactions with someone against their will - harrassment is more blurred as we have tried to point out!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> No this is an example of double standards that sadly do exist.


So you accept that a woman in flashing her boobs is committing an act that ought to be criminalised. Good, I respect your consistency on this matter at least.

Do you then disagree with your friend Suzy when she claims that this act that you think ought to be criminalised does not under any circumstances constitute a potential act of provocation?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> NO I DONT think its a direct invite to get intimate and I am shocked and appalled that you think it is
> 
> No I dont think women have a right to flash - personally I think it is tacky and degrading - I would be perfectly happy to see women arrested for indecent exposure


*Sorry Suzy i disagree. If a woman chooses to flash at men then imho she might as well say " here ya go guys all yours"...
We all, both men and women should have enough respect for our own bodies not to go flashing our bits about.
*


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

This is going round in circles now. Maybe if everyone stopped randomly touching strangers there won't be an issue of "mistaken" assault. Can only think of very few scenarios where you would be justified is touching someone you didn't know


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Folks, reopening this. 

No problem with debating but please keep it civil, thanks.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

westie~ma said:


> Folks, reopening this.
> 
> No problem with debating but please keep it civil, thanks.


*Thank you for reopening Westie.*


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Whilst i agree "true" victims need to be protected i personally think the law can accuse almost anyone of sexual assault.*


The law doesn`t accuse anyone. The law is the established benchmark against which allegations are measured and compared. People accuse people.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sussexplumber said:


> The law doesn`t accuse anyone. The law is the established benchmark against which allegations are measured and compared. People accuse people.


*Thank you for clearing that up.*


----------



## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> NO I DONT think its a direct invite to get intimate and I am shocked and appalled that you think it is
> 
> No I dont think women have a right to flash - personally I think it is tacky and degrading - I would be perfectly happy to see women arrested for indecent exposure


Only problem with that is the Brest feeding nazis would have everyone who dared to feed her baby and show a tiny bit of boob done for it :wink:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

LostGirl said:


> Only problem with that is the Brest feeding nazis would have everyone who dared to feed her baby and show a tiny bit of boob done for it :wink:


I think obviously there would have to be common sense in action here


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I think obviously there would have to be common sense in action here


Ah commen sense whats that? does anyone have that anymore? 

Yeah i know what you mean, and i do agree with you anyone who wants to flash their bits and pieces in a sexual way male or female should be done. I ont want to see some boobies flapping about the place as much as i dont want to see a willy doing the same!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

At various points of this thread a particular group of contributors have rounded on my suggestion that victims should be encouraged to report their abuse. In many instances they have taken offence at my suggestion that victims actually have a responsibility (both to themselves and to others) to do so.

Some have chosen to interpret my remarks about the victims responsibility as a suggestion that the victims are responsible or complicit in their own abuse. This is hysterical nonsense, nothing could be further from the truth and I can only assume it to be borne of misandric attitudes or an inability to comprehend the content of my posts.

Coincidently, ITV last night ran a follow-up to their recent exposure of Jimmy Savile. I have posted a link to this below.

Thankfully this is a topic on which the times and attitudes are changing. The message, regularly promoted by some in here, that victims should not report or be wary of reporting because, as we have heard on this thread, "we wont be believed", or "Support systems are inadequate" is counter productive and hugely damaging. As I have frequently said we ought to be striving for a culture in our society that has a zero tolerence attitude to offenders and that encourages victims to report. Part of that encouragement is to help victims understand the responsibility they have to a) themselves and b) others.

Video - ITV Player

I would strongly recommend the opening and closing sections of the programme as educational. Specifically minutes 3:30 to 5:40, and minutes 51 to 53.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

LostGirl said:


> Ah commen sense whats that? does anyone have that anymore?
> 
> I ont want to see some boobies flapping about the place as much as i _dont want to see a willy doing the same_!


Ok suit yerself! lol But if its "come alive", you`d be interested, yes?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cromford said:


> At various points of this thread a particular group of contributors have rounded on my suggestion that victims should be encouraged to report their abuse. In many instances they have taken offence at my suggestion that victims actually have a responsibility (both to themselves and to others) to do so.
> 
> Some have chosen to interpret my remarks about the victims responsibility as a suggestion that the victims are responsible or complicit in their own abuse. This is hysterical nonsense, nothing could be further from the truth and I can only assume it to be borne of misandric attitudes or an inability to comprehend the content of my posts.
> 
> ...


*I watched the program last night. I have tried to keep "that person" out of this thread, as i believe the other one about him was closed.
People in that show, DID report what was happening but nothing was done.
For me personally i chose and will continue, should the need arise, deal with unwanted attention my own way.
Unless it was something really bad.*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I watched the program last night. I have tried to keep "that person" out of this thread, as i believe the other one about him was closed.
> People in that show, DID report what was happening but nothing was done.
> For me personally i chose and will continue, should the need arise, deal with unwanted attention my own way.
> Unless it was something really bad.*


True Janice, and that is an experience I can relate to.

However, as one of the participants said (I think it was the guy from the NSPCC that featured towards the end of the programme?), this is a watershed moment. The statistics relating to the number of reports made, not just in relation to Savile, but about abuse generally, have rocketed recently. It is a watershed moment that means people reporting in future are much more likely to be believed (which should be the default setting) and treated with sensitivity and sympathy.

Victims should be encouraged to report by this, and it seems many have already taken that difficult decision. The other side of the coin is that it becomes more difficult for those that might make malicious accusations to shelter behind the "nobody will believe me" argument. Courageous enough to accuse should be courageous enough to report. Both aspects represent significant advances.

It is a watershed moment and long may it continue.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> At various points of this thread a particular group of contributors have rounded on my suggestion that victims should be encouraged to report their abuse. In many instances they have taken offence at my suggestion that victims actually have a responsibility (both to themselves and to others) to do so.
> 
> Some have chosen to interpret my remarks about the victims responsibility as a suggestion that the victims are responsible or complicit in their own abuse. This is hysterical nonsense, nothing could be further from the truth and I can only assume it to be borne of misandric attitudes or an inability to comprehend the content of my posts.
> 
> ...


Could you tell me on what professional basis you deem those parts as educational?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> Ok suit yerself! lol But if its "come alive", you`d be interested, yes?


Careful m8. My advice that you take your big plunger along to your charity strip-off, was enough to get a select few foaming at the mouth in here.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Could you tell me on what professional basis you deem those parts as educational?


Why? So you can demonstrate your misandry once more?

If you do not think there are educational aspects to those clips feel free to explain.

In direct response to your question, I do know something about education as I was a University lecturer for 10 years.

I await the predictable response....


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Cromford said:


> Careful m8. My advice that you take your big plunger along to your charity strip-off, was enough to get a select few foaming at the mouth in here.


Wow....talk about jealous. I think someone's feeling a bit left out....


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Wow....talk about jealous. I think someone's feeling a bit left out....


Men as a rule do not suffer from penis envy, but I can't rule out the possibility that other contributors to this thread might.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Cromford said:


> Men as a rule do not suffer from penis envy, but I can't rule out the possibility that other contributors to this thread might.


Nah, SP sounds quite happy with what he's got, definitely not envious of anyone else...


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Nah, SP sounds quite happy with what he's got, definitely not envious of anyone else...


..as I said, men generally do not suffer from penis envy.


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Why? So you can demonstrate your misandry once more?
> 
> If you do not think there are educational aspects to those clips feel free to explain.
> 
> ...


I don't know what makes you think I dislike males. I was asking a civil question. I will await your predictable response of accusing fellow members of anything that enters your mind and also of dodging clear questions, of which I am perfectly entitled to ask since you deem yourself professional enough to classify the subject as educational.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> ..as I said, men generally do not suffer from penis envy.


Based on? Could you provide statistical evidence please?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Cromford said:


> ..as I said, men generally do not suffer from penis envy.


Out come the true colours again: any woman who disagrees with you wishes she was a man. Sad :nonod:
Of course in your universe, if I don't wish I was a man, then I must hate men.....have you ever met any women?


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Based on? Could you provide statistical evidence please?


Go look up the clinical definition instead of continuously asking me to help educate you.

I'm still awaiting your explanation as to why there are no lessons to be learned from the clips I made reference to.

I fully expect to be waiting a long time.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Out come the true colours again: any woman who disagrees with you wishes she was a man. Sad :nonod:
> Of course in your universe, if I don't wish I was a man, then I must hate men.....have you ever met any women?


Ahem...I'll say this for you. Unlike some you do at least appear to be aware of the clinical definition.

Sadly this makes your attempt at an adolescent insult all the more difficult to excuse.


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## seanmac (Oct 22, 2012)

i cant say i get Penis envy, but i do get pee shy in Urinals men freak me out man, THEY DO LOOK :O


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Go look up the clinical definition instead of continuously asking me to help educate you.
> 
> I'm still awaiting your explanation as to why there are no lessons to be learned from the clips I made reference to.
> 
> I fully expect to be waiting a long time.


It's plain for all to see I asked you a question first. It would be very polite of you to answer me first rather then try to divert your obvious lack of knowledge back to me.

I fully expect to never receive an answer to my question.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Girls, please, handbags at 50 paces, calm down, dont get so excited


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Nah, SP sounds quite happy with what he's got, definitely not envious of anyone else...




I do have an outsize plunger. I use it to keep my lodger happy. By clearing her hair from the plughole!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> I do have an outsize plunger. I use it to keep my lodger happy. By clearing her hair from the plughole!


Can't think of a finer application!


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Can't think of a finer application!


Oh I could


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Cromford said:


> Ahem...I'll say this for you. *Unlike some you do at least appear to be aware of the clinical definition.*
> Sadly this makes your attempt at an adolescent insult all the more difficult to excuse.


Let's be clear on all this - you have just said, by implication and more directly, that every woman here who disagrees with your viewpoint wishes she was a man, or hates men.
You base this opinion on now very much outdated and discredited theory, that hasn't held any water with analysts and therapists for quite some time, since it is a reflection of the author's own conditioning.

Just wanted to point it out in case anyone missed you spelling out what we already have worked out about your feelings toward women.

I don't feel the need to be excused by misogynists, so don't you fret about it.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> It's plain for all to see I asked you a question first. It would be very polite of you to answer me first rather then try to divert your obvious lack of knowledge back to me.
> 
> I fully expect to never receive an answer to my question.


You asked me under what professional capacity I was entitled to deem something educational.

I told you I was a University lecturer for 10 years. A more than sufficient answer to your question.

Your second question relating to a statistical comparison of man and women in relation to penis envy, made me laugh. I didn't answer directly as it might make you look foolish.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Let's be clear on all this - you have just said, by implication and more directly, that every woman here who disagrees with your viewpoint wishes she was a man, or hates men.
> You base this opinion on now very much outdated and discredited theory, that hasn't held any water with analysts and therapists for quite some time, since it is a reflection of the author's own conditioning.
> 
> Just wanted to point it out in case anyone missed you spelling out what we already have worked out about your feelings toward women.
> ...


No..what the comment says is perfectly clear. You are the one drawing "implications".


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Oh I could


What would you use it for?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Cromford said:


> You asked me under what professional capacity I was entitled to deem something educational.
> 
> I told you I was a University lecturer for 10 years. A more than sufficient answer to your question.
> 
> Your second question relating to a statistical comparison of man and women in relation to penis envy, made me laugh. I didn't answer directly as it might make you look small.


But a lecturer in what, welding?

more than a mouthfull is a waste


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> You asked me under what professional capacity I was entitled to deem something educational.
> 
> I told you I was a University lecturer for 10 years. A more than sufficient answer to your question.
> 
> Your second question relating to a statistical comparison of man and women in relation to penis envy, made me laugh. I didn't answer directly as it might make you look foolish.


Oh so you will have published papers. What area did you specialise in? What postgraduate courses did you take?
Did you specialise in _Promoting sexual health_?


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Cromford said:


> What would you use it for?


She`s explained to me in confidence but I`m still too shocked to repeat it.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Oh so you will have published papers. What area did you specialise in? What postgraduate courses did you take?
> Did you specialise in _Promoting sexual health_?


None of your business.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> She`s explained to me in confidence but I`m still too shocked to repeat it.


I can imagine.

Sweet tea...that's supposed to be good for shock...


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Sussexplumber said:


> She`s explained to me in confidence but I`m still too shocked to repeat it.


I'd use it for thwacking trolls. Only with your permission of course, terribly bad form to go manhandling a chap's plunger without asking first


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> *But a lecturer in what, welding?*
> 
> more than a mouthfull is a waste


No, but in my spare time I have a fondness of Social Anthrapology. I find the Baruya of New Guinee particularly interesting.

There's always lessons to be learned...


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm outta here folks. Got better things to do than waste my time on an old member who is obsessed with one thread.....see you around the forum Good people.

Cya Doggiebag...mind you don't trip on your nose :001_tt1:


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## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

Cromford said:


> No, but in my spare time I have a fondness of Social Anthrapology. I find the Baruya of New Guinee particularly interesting.
> 
> There's always lessons to be learned...


A university lecturer that can't even spell anthropology or New Guinea?

My how the education system has taken a nose dive.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> I'm outta here folks. Got better things to do than waste my time on an old member who is obsessed with one thread.....see you around the forum Good people.
> 
> Cya Doggiebag...mind you don't trip on your nose :001_tt1:


You seem obsessed by this notion that I am someone else that you obviously have a deep seated hatred of. Such strong emotions over folks you don't know and have never met are most probably unhealthy.

You have my permission to ask the mods to compare IP addresses as this notion is obviously making you stressed. You really shouldn't be surprised that there might be more than one person in the world that takes exception to your opinions and attitudes.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Linden_Tree said:


> A university lecturer that can't even spell anthropology or New Guinea?
> 
> My how the education system has taken a nose dive.


Oops. My bad.

Multi-tasking. It's best left to you women ....


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Cromford said:


> You seem obsessed by this notion that I am someone else that you obviously have a deep seated hatred of. Such strong emotions over folks you don't know and have never met are most probably unhealthy.
> 
> You have my permission to ask the mods to compare IP addresses as this notion is obviously making you stressed. You really shouldn't be surprised that there might be more than one person in the world that takes exception to your opinions and attitudes.


Surely everyone knows by now that means nothing - I have 7 IP addresses to choose from right now, and if I reset the router I'd have 7 more.

ETA: would you look at that - a woman who can handle technology! Obviously it's because I so desperately want to be a man!


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## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Oops. My bad.
> 
> Multi-tasking. It's best left to you women ....


Or maybe you are just telling porkies in order to try and justify and back-up your bigotted and ill educated opinions that you are trying to state as fact?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Linden_Tree said:


> Or maybe you are just telling porkies in order to try and justify and back-up your bigotted and ill educated opinions that you are trying to state as fact?


In the urban dictionary under subsection 'Bullshitting'..its in actual fact called 'doing a doggiebag'.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Surely everyone knows by now that means nothing - I have 7 IP addresses to choose from right now, and if I reset the router I'd have 7 more.


You too?

I tend to avoid 'smileys' as they are best reserved for the inarticulate. But I'll make an exception here.

:lol:

I doubt I'll ever grasp the paranoia and anger on display.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I'd use it for thwacking trolls. Only with your permission of course, terribly bad form to go manhandling a chap's plunger without asking first


Hey we`re all friends here!  And it wouldnt be the first time its caused an injury.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Linden_Tree said:


> Or maybe you are just telling porkies in order to try and justify and back-up your bigotted and ill educated opinions that you are trying to state as fact?


Perhaps. I suppose that's an option.

Of course, it could be that you simply don't like anyone expressing opinions different to your own.

Which classification of people am I bigoted against?

By the way. You have a spelling mistake in your post. I know your sensitive about that.


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## seanmac (Oct 22, 2012)

Surely its a matter of opinion, i have friends that i can flirt with and touch parts of there body i wouldnt touch on a total stranger or someone i know would feel uncomfortable, i mean a girl pinches my bum i laugh, if i pinch a strangers bum then im running a risk.

I do hate the fact that, these things are more situated on a female basis, and the fact that girls can sexually assault guys i kicked a girl out my pub for grabbing my bits one night, admittedly she was wasted but still i would class that as sexual assault. Yet i have female friends who did it i would laugh at. That said if they did it now my misses would chin them and i must admit id feel uncomfortable.

I really think its a hard subject what is sexual assault for one person might not be for another, but really anything involving contact with another person, in one way or another could constitute sexual assault


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## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Perhaps. I suppose that's an option.
> 
> Of course, it could be that you simply don't like anyone expressing opinions different to your own.
> 
> ...


Oh i'm sure i have. English isn't my first language after all.

Not to mention i don't *claim* to have a decade of higher education teaching under my belt.

I haven't actually expressed an opinion at all btw.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

seanmac said:


> Surely its a matter of opinion, i have friends that i can flirt with and touch parts of there body i wouldnt touch on a total stranger or someone i know would feel uncomfortable, i mean a girl pinches my bum i laugh, if i pinch a strangers bum then im running a risk.
> 
> I do hate the fact that, these things are more situated on a female basis, and the fact that girls can sexually assault guys i kicked a girl out my pub for grabbing my bits one night, admittedly she was wasted but still i would class that as sexual assault. Yet i have female friends who did it i would laugh at. That said if they did it now my misses would chin them and i must admit id feel uncomfortable.
> 
> I really think its a hard subject what is sexual assault for one person might not be for another, but really anything involving contact with another person, in one way or another could constitute sexual assault


This subject is now seen more in favour of mens experiences too. A lot of men would feel too embarrassed to admit they were assaulted by a woman or even a man. The professionals are now taking sexual abuse /assault against men much more seriously.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

seanmac said:


> Surely its a matter of opinion, i have friends that i can flirt with and touch parts of there body i wouldnt touch on a total stranger or someone i know would feel uncomfortable, i mean a girl pinches my bum i laugh, if i pinch a strangers bum then im running a risk.
> 
> I do hate the fact that, these things are more situated on a female basis, and the fact that girls can sexually assault guys i kicked a girl out my pub for grabbing my bits one night, admittedly she was wasted but still i would class that as sexual assault. Yet i have female friends who did it i would laugh at. That said if they did it now my misses would chin them and i must admit id feel uncomfortable.
> 
> *I really think its a hard subject what is sexual assault for one person might not be for another, but really anything involving contact with another person, in one way or another could constitute sexual assault*


It better not include touching nerves...or I'm for a long spell in the slammer.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> This subject is now seen more in favour of mens experiences too. A lot of men would feel too embarrassed to admit they were assaulted by a woman or even a man. The professionals are now taking sexual abuse /assault against men much more seriously.


I agree. If I ever catch a woman even looking at me I insist on getting her number. Can`t let matters like that go.


----------



## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Y'know what I find super interesting? No one's considered the emotional feelings a person has when they've been sexually assaulted. No one's thought of the "what did I do wrong" notion that everyone has when they've been sexually assaulted.

In case what I'm saying is unclear, let me give an example:

When that yucky old codger looked down my chest and made an inappropriate comment, I felt absolutely mortified, and the only reason I was able to tell the security guys was because I went to the one I could trust, the one who had looked after me since the day I got there. Had he not been on duty that night, I probably wouldn't have said anything because I would've felt like a fool - surely working in a bar, I would know that would've happened?

It took talking with close family members (both men and women) in great detail to reassure me that it wasn't something I did wrong, the blame was solely on him. 

Also added to this was my now ex who I told about this. He blamed me for wearing the top I was wearing, which was essentially 'inviting this man in'. His view was that I shouldn't wear anything that was even a little low-cut, otherwise I was just inviting in attention.

Now bear in mind, this was just someone looking at my chest, this wasn't someone shoving his hands down my trousers or, god forbid, trying to rape me. He just looked at my chest. But for me to have such a strong feeling of self-blame, when I am the least likely person to accept blame when I know it's not my fault, is really quite telling. How, then, do these people that have been sexually assaulted feel? What if they have partners like I did, who said that they were inviting it by the clothes they're wearing?

It's all well and good saying report the problem, but how do you report a problem you're not even sure exists? What if your blaming yourself so much that to report the problem would be silly, the police would do you for wasting their time and they would laugh at you for being so stupid?

Unfortunately this is a very common mindset for victims. Yes, statistically reports may have increased, but that's no indication of the level of assault occurring. How many people feel able to deal with it themselves? How many people are ashamed and self-blame?

It's important to remember that, while statistics are good as a basis for giving a rough picture of an issue, they are always going to be biased in some form or another, meaning they can't be used as definitive evidence.

The issue isn't as black and white as some people are making out, there a lot of grey areas, many of which haven't been considered by the people in this thread.


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Linden_Tree said:


> Oh i'm sure i have. English isn't my first language after all.
> 
> Not to mention i don't *claim* to have a decade of higher education teaching under my belt.
> 
> I haven't actually expressed an opinion at all btw.


I didn't say you had expressed an opinion. Your immediate assumption that I am lying is kind of revealing as to what your attitude or opinions might be though.


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Y'know what I find super interesting? No one's considered the emotional feelings a person has when they've been sexually assaulted. No one's thought of the "what did I do wrong" notion that everyone has when they've been sexually assaulted.
> 
> In case what I'm saying is unclear, let me give an example:
> 
> ...


Any policeman that sought to 'do you for wasting their time' should not be in uniform and has no place in modern policing.


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Y'know what I find super interesting? No one's considered the emotional feelings a person has when they've been sexually assaulted. No one's thought of the "what did I do wrong" notion that everyone has when they've been sexually assaulted.
> 
> In case what I'm saying is unclear, let me give an example:
> 
> ...


To blame an item of clothing as a reason for sexual assault would be totally unjustified. It would also be undermined by child sex abuse statistics. When children are interviewed following an assault or abuse...notice is paid to their appearance i.e. clothing and whether it is age appropriate.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Cromford said:


> Any policeman that sought to 'do you for wasting their time' should not be in uniform and has no place in modern policing.


But on the plus side, there`s still 50% that will do something about your allegation.


----------



## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

Cromford said:


> I didn't say you had expressed an opinion. Your immediate assumption that I am lying is kind of revealing as to what your attitude or opinions might be though.


As is your immediate assumption that i have a vagina.

Im afraid i feel unable to express a true opinion, as the human body and nudity is viewed very differently where i am from, and in a more liberal way.


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> But on the plus side, there`s still 50% that will do something about your allegation.


I would hope many more....


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Linden_Tree said:


> As is your immediate assumption that i have a vagina.
> 
> Im afraid i feel unable to express a true opinion, as the human body and nudity is viewed very differently where i am from, and in a more liberal way.


They ought to change the name of this forum. Telepathy forum might be more appropriate.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

seanmac said:


> Surely its a matter of opinion, i have friends that i can flirt with and touch parts of there body i wouldnt touch on a total stranger or someone i know would feel uncomfortable, i mean a girl pinches my bum i laugh, if i pinch a strangers bum then im running a risk.
> 
> I do hate the fact that, these things are more situated on a female basis, and the fact that girls can sexually assault guys i kicked a girl out my pub for grabbing my bits one night, admittedly she was wasted but still i would class that as sexual assault. Yet i have female friends who did it i would laugh at. That said if they did it now my misses would chin them and i must admit id feel uncomfortable.
> 
> I really think its a hard subject what is sexual assault for one person might not be for another, but really anything involving contact with another person, in one way or another could constitute sexual assault


Quite simply, it`s all a matter of context.


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> Quite simply, it`s all a matter of context.


Careful. That's not a popular view in here.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> Quite simply, it`s all a matter of context.


Culture, upbringing, personal beliefs all come into it. It's a complicated subject for sure and one that will be debated for a long time to come.


----------



## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Cromford said:


> Careful. That's not a popular view in here.


You are just making it up as you go along now! 
Since when was that view unpopular? If anything, your argument that the ages of people involved makes no difference whatsoever to how the person on the receiving end feels, is the view most conspicious for denying that context has any bearing.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Any policeman that sought to 'do you for wasting their time' should not be in uniform and has no place in modern policing.


Indeed, that doesn't change the fact that some victims do feel like they would be wasting police time.



Lavenderb said:


> To blame an item of clothing as a reason for sexual assault would be totally unjustified. It would also be undermined by child sex abuse statistics. When children are interviewed following an assault or abuse...notice is paid to their appearance i.e. clothing and whether it is age appropriate.


Exactly, but there is still the mindset today that women are 'asking for it' by wearing certain types of clothing. Yet it's always women, never men or children. Point is, there are so many excuses that allow sexual assault to happen which undermines the victim and stops others speaking out.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Y'know what I find super interesting? No one's considered the emotional feelings a person has when they've been sexually assaulted. No one's thought of the "what did I do wrong" notion that everyone has when they've been sexually assaulted.
> 
> In case what I'm saying is unclear, let me give an example:
> 
> ...


Fab post - I think some of us have tried to look at this from the victims point of view - but been shouted down by cries of manism/manhate


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Indeed, that doesn't change the fact that some victims do feel like they would be wasting police time.
> 
> Exactly, but there is still the mindset today that women are 'asking for it' by wearing certain types of clothing. Yet it's always women, never men or children. Point is, there are so many excuses that allow sexual assault to happen which undermines the victim and stops others speaking out.


*Now i know i made the remark that if a woman wears a low cut top she can expect men to ogle her boobs.I stand by that remark.
I do not believe a man has the right to touch though.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now i know i made the remark that if a woman wears a low cut top she can expect men to ogle her boobs.I stand by that remark.
> I do not believe a man has the right to touch though.*


Again I will re-iterate the point that glancing is one thing. Prolonged staring or touched is completely different, and there is where the boundary lies. Of course women will always have different views on how much a man can look but I would hazard a guess that it's fairly universal that outright staring and groping is wrong.

I think you're missing the point of my argument entirely Janice. The focus is far too much on 'the man being invited in'. The focus should be much more on the victim of sexual assault and how they feel about being sexually assaulted and are there safe places they can go to to report the incident and not feel like a fool.

Unfortunately, while there are groups out there which provide this service, they aren't really known for the general public, a victim must go and seek them out. Well if you're already feeling like a fool for 'allowing' the sexual assault to happen, you aren't about to go and admit how foolish you were to a perfect stranger, are you?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Indeed, that doesn't change the fact that some victims do feel like they would be wasting police time.
> 
> Exactly, but there is still the mindset today that women are 'asking for it' by wearing certain types of clothing. Yet it's always women, never men or children. Point is, there are so many excuses that allow sexual assault to happen which undermines the victim and stops others speaking out.


I think we also need to look at the confusing signals we send our young females from an early age - they get sexualised from a very early age - thru magazines/clothes/hair/makeup - the female is in many ways conditioned that they are to dress a certain way - because they are still seen by many as objects of desire first before anything else - its this mindset that needs changing.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I think we also need to look at the confusing signals we send our young females from an early age - they get sexualised from a very early age - thru magazines/clothes/hair/makeup - the female is in many ways conditioned that they are to dress a certain way - because they are still seen by many as objects of desire first before anything else - its this mindset that needs changing.


Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. If you take a look at music videos, something kids have access too regularly, the women dress and dance like hussies.

Take Halloween at uni - the girls are expected to dress in revealing clothes and all the costumes available to buy have very short skirts. I think I've only seen one costume for a woman that has trousers, the rest are all mini-skirts. I have no problem with women dressing how ever they choose, my problem is when they are expected to dress in a certain way and then get told "it's their own fault when they get sexually assaulted, they shouldn't dress in that way". We can't win.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Again I will re-iterate the point that glancing is one thing. Prolonged staring or touched is completely different, and there is where the boundary lies. Of course women will always have different views on how much a man can look but I would hazard a guess that it's fairly universal that outright staring and groping is wrong.
> 
> I think you're missing the point of my argument entirely Janice. The focus is far too much on 'the man being invited in'. The focus should be much more on the victim of sexual assault and how they feel about being sexually assaulted and are there safe places they can go to to report the incident and not feel like a fool.
> 
> Unfortunately, while there are groups out there which provide this service, they aren't really known for the general public, a victim must go and seek them out. Well if you're already feeling like a fool for 'allowing' the sexual assault to happen, you aren't about to go and admit how foolish you were to a perfect stranger, are you?


*I have not missed the points you are making. I might not agree with all you say, but i have stated where a woman imo is asking for trouble, and also where she isn't.
If i choose to i could rightly class myself as a victim of sexual assault, and i was 15 at the time.
I dealt with the problem in my own way. And believe me when i say, it was far worse than someone just looking.
I knew i had done absolutely nothing wrong,so i didn't feel any guilt. I wouldn't give the idiot that satisfaction.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have not missed the points you are making. I might not agree with all you say, but i have stated where a woman imo is asking for trouble, and also where she isn't.
> If i choose to i could rightly class myself as a victim of sexual assault, and i was 15 at the time.
> I dealt with the problem in my own way. And believe me when i say, it was far worse than someone just looking.
> I knew i had done absolutely nothing wrong,so i didn't feel any guilt. I wouldn't give the idiot that satisfaction.*


Im sorry you went thru something like that Jan 

I just want to touch back on age again with this one - you were 15 at the time of your incident - do you think if the same thing happened now at the age you are you would react differently ??- could the fact you were so young have been a reason why you dealt with this on your own and did nt report or seek advice etc - I think its key to remember that many women who do suffer sexual assault do so at early teen ages - I still stand by my reasoning that this is a factor why many dont report - they are young dont feel they would be believed and are unsure what to do who to go to .


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Im sorry you went thru something like that Jan
> 
> I just want to touch back on age again with this one - you were 15 at the time of your incident - do you think if the same thing happened now at the age you are you would react differently ??- could the fact you were so young have been a reason why you dealt with this on your own and did nt report or seek advice etc - I think its key to remember that many women who do suffer sexual assault do so at early teen ages - I still stand by my reasoning that this is a factor why many dont report - they are young dont feel they would be believed and are unsure what to do who to go to .


*Totally honest Suzy, now i'd go for the groin if i was in the same situation.My age didn't come into it as far as i was concerned.I knew what he did was wrong and i made it known to him.
Just for the record, he was my first boss. My " boyfriend" worked for him also. But not in the same place. My " boyfriend" came to see during his dinner break and i told him. He went and had words with my boss, and then when he went back to work my boss's remark to me was. That i was a silly girl and should't have said anything.
I think it was just over a week later i found another job.
Oh and had i told my father, he would have believed me 100%.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have not missed the points you are making. I might not agree with all you say, but i have stated where a woman imo is asking for trouble, and also where she isn't.
> If i choose to i could rightly class myself as a victim of sexual assault, and i was 15 at the time.
> I dealt with the problem in my own way. And believe me when i say, it was far worse than someone just looking.
> I knew i had done absolutely nothing wrong,so i didn't feel any guilt. I wouldn't give the idiot that satisfaction.*


You are one of the few people strong enough to deal with it, not everyone can do that.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> You are one of the few people strong enough to deal with it, not everyone can do that.


*But you over look the fact, i was born just the same as the next person.We have to make our choices of how we deal with the crap life dishes out to us.That might come across as uncaring, but its certainly not meant that way.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Totally honest Suzy, now i'd go for the groin if i was in the same situation.My age didn't come into it as far as i was concerned.I knew what he did was wrong and i made it known to him.
> Just for the record, he was my first boss. My " boyfriend" worked for him also. But not in the same place. My " boyfriend" came to see during his dinner break and i told him. He went and had words with my boss, and then when he went back to work my boss's remark to me was. That i was a silly girl and should't have said anything.
> I think it was just over a week later i found another job.
> Oh and had i told my father, he would have believed me 100%.*


I kind of knew that you would reply as you have Jan  because I know what a strong character you are and you dont take no bullcrap  but you are one of very few girls at the age of 15 who can deal with things in such a way - the fact your boss said what I have enlarged speaks volumes that at 15 you were probably taken less seriously - so in some way it does prove my point - again its horrible you had to go thru this (((()))))


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> I kind of knew that you would reply as you have Jan  because I know what a strong character you are and you dont take no bullcrap  but you are one of very few girls at the age of 15 who can deal with things in such a way - the fact your boss said what I have enlarged speaks volumes that at 15 you were probably taken less seriously - so in some way it does prove my point - again its horrible you had to go thru this (((()))))


*The thing is though Suzy, i didn't pay no more attention to it after. I still don't see it as a " big deal "..I came through it and have learnt by it.*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *The thing is though Suzy, i didn't pay no more attention to it after. I still don't see it as a " big deal "..I came through it and have learnt by it.*


Do you think that could have been because 'things' like that were often ignored or brushed off back then whereas now people are encouraged to report these acts.
There are instances going back into my family's history that were brushed off, even laughed at. Nowadays the men concerned would be facing the law.


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## seanmac (Oct 22, 2012)




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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *But you over look the fact, i was born just the same as the next person.We have to make our choices of how we deal with the crap life dishes out to us.That might come across as uncaring, but its certainly not meant that way.*


Yes we do, but not everybody has the same inner strength you do. How we grow up and the people we grow up with shape our view of ourselves and our surroundings, meaning everyone is different.

One person may have the confidence to deal with sexual assault where another person doesn't.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I kind of knew that you would reply as you have Jan  because I know what a strong character you are and you dont take no bullcrap  but you are one of very few girls at the age of 15 who can deal with things in such a way - the fact your boss said what I have enlarged speaks volumes that at 15 you were probably taken less seriously - so in some way it does prove my point - again its horrible you had to go thru this (((()))))


Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are emotionally strong 15 year olds and emotionally fragile 50 year olds?

The trauma that a women (or man) feels from being sexually assaulted is all about the specific context. That includes the nature of the assault, the circumstances (for example, I could imagine it more traumatic to be assaulted by a burglar in your own home, than to have a drunk touch you up in a pub environment). I guess whether or not you knew the offender might have a bearing on the victim's perception of the attack too. Age is only one factor of many that has a bearing on how a victim will react. You persistently suggest that younger equates to more trauma and I think that is extremely unfair to close your mind to the possibility that an older victim could be more or less traumatised than a younger victim.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are emotionally strong 15 year olds and emotionally fragile 50 year olds?
> 
> The trauma that a women (or man) feels from being sexually assaulted is all about the specific context. That includes the nature of the assault, the circumstances (for example, I could imagine it more traumatic to be assaulted by a burglar in your own home, than to have a drunk touch you up in a pub environment). I guess whether or not you knew the offender might have a bearing on the victim's perception of the attack too. Age is only one factor of many that has a bearing on how a victim will react. You persistently suggest that younger equates to more trauma and I think that is extremely unfair to close your mind to the possibility that an older victim could be more or less traumatised than a younger victim.


I don't think that's what Suzy's saying at all. It comes across to me that the point she's making is that generally adults tend to be emotionally stronger than teenagers because they've lived more and dealt more with life's crap. There will always be exceptions to this but they are few.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I don't think that's what Suzy's saying at all. It comes across to me that the point she's making is that generally adults tend to be emotionally stronger than teenagers because they've lived more and dealt more with life's crap. There will always be exceptions to this but they are few.


That's fine. As generalisations go it's a fairly reasonable one, however, it does not change the fact that the degree of traumatisation is influenced by a whole host of factors and age is only one of them. It is neither more or less important than the others.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> That's fine. As generalisations go it's a fairly reasonable one, however, it does not change the fact that the degree of traumatisation is influenced by a whole host of factors and age is only one of them. It is neither more or less important than the others.


Indeed, and no one's saying that one is more or less important than the other. The point is is that younger people often do feel like their voice doesn't matter, and this creates a cycle - abuse happens at a young age and doesn't get reported, it happens again when the person is older and again doesn't get reported because they don't have the confidence to speak out; if no one listened when they were younger, why would they listen now?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are emotionally strong 15 year olds and emotionally fragile 50 year olds?
> 
> The trauma that a women (or man) feels from being sexually assaulted is all about the specific context. That includes the nature of the assault, the circumstances (for example, I could imagine it more traumatic to be assaulted by a burglar in your own home, than to have a drunk touch you up in a pub environment). I guess whether or not you knew the offender might have a bearing on the victim's perception of the attack too. Age is only one factor of many that has a bearing on how a victim will react. You persistently suggest that younger equates to more trauma and I think that is extremely unfair to close your mind to the possibility that an older victim could be more or less traumatised than a younger victim.


I am not saying older people cannot FEEL the same way as younger people !!!! - how victims DEAL with trauma is what I think will differ as far as age is concerned of course there will be instances to the contrary I am not disputing that but for the most part I think how we deal with anything in life differs the older we become - hence the saying " If only I knew then what I know now"

How victims FEEL is not going to be determined by age!!! that is emotion that ANYONE will feel - I have tried to say that time and time again on here!!

So now you say age does have a factor?? for at least two pages you argued with me it does not?? :confused


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Lavenderb said:


> Do you think that could have been because 'things' like that were often ignored or brushed off back then whereas now people are encouraged to report these acts.
> There are instances going back into my family's history that were brushed off, even laughed at. Nowadays the men concerned would be facing the law.


*Back when i was a kid these things were not common, i never heard of anything like this.That's why i can can say 100% had i told my father, he would have believed me.I knew what he did was wrong and i knew it had to be dealt with. But i refuse to be a victim.Sh*t happens, thats a fact life.*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Back when i was a kid these things were not common, i never heard of anything like this.That's why i can can say 100% had i told my father, he would have believed me.I knew what he did was wrong and i knew it had to be dealt with. But i refuse to be a victim.Sh*t happens, thats a fact life.*


My daughter is the same. And me.....but I recognise that a lot can't deal with it so well.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Back when i was a kid these things were not common, i never heard of anything like this.That's why i can can say 100% had i told my father, he would have believed me.I knew what he did was wrong and i knew it had to be dealt with. But i refuse to be a victim.Sh*t happens, thats a fact life.*


I would be the same probably Jan! I wouldnt let the effers win!!! but I do see that everyone is different and deals with situations in completely different ways

What breaks some makes others if u get what I mean


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there are emotionally strong 15 year olds and emotionally fragile 50 year olds?
> 
> The trauma that a women (or man) feels from being sexually assaulted is all about the specific context. That includes the nature of the assault, the circumstances (for example, I could imagine it more traumatic to be assaulted by a burglar in your own home, than to have a drunk touch you up in a pub environment). I guess whether or not you knew the offender might have a bearing on the victim's perception of the attack too. Age is only one factor of many that has a bearing on how a victim will react. You persistently suggest that younger equates to more trauma and I think that is extremely unfair to close your mind to the possibility that an older victim could be more or less traumatised than a younger victim.


In theory I agree with alot of what you say, sadly where you seem to end up in constant arguments with people is your interpretation, or misinterpretation of what is said - almost to the point of taking it out of context.

Suzy has not said that every 15yo abused will suffer more trauma than an adult - simply that the victims age may have an effect on reactions. teenage boys that claimed abuse by Jonathon King went back repeatidly despite not wanting the attention they recieved... the fact they were 15 yrs old probably had an effect on their judgements, undergo things that they wouldnt at maybe 18yo, older and wiser as it were. This is not the case for all, but I feel it is certainly a reasonable thought that 15yo's dont always know the best way to respond to things, expecially when commited by adults or people of some authority.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Indeed, and no one's saying that one is more or less important than the other. The point is is that younger people often do feel like their voice doesn't matter, and this creates a cycle - abuse happens at a young age and doesn't get reported, it happens again when the person is older and again doesn't get reported because they don't have the confidence to speak out; if no one listened when they were younger, why would they listen now?


...and for me the crux of the matter is how do you change this? How do you help more victims feel comfortable and confident to report the assault?

I do not think it is helpful for women, as they so often inclined to, to take the stance that nobody cares, nobody listens and therefore why should we report?
People DO listen and people DO care. There are imperfections in the system yes, but would it not be more productive to focus on identifying them and proposing improvements?

From a male perspective, one of the things that grinds my gears about this debate is nobody considers the rights of the accused (generally a male) or the possibility that a man's life can be destroyed and his family torn asunder by false, malicious or exaggerated claims. So in looking for improvements that is something that must be borne in mind. We must not become so biased in favour of the victim that the accused (and the innocent family of the accused) lose their rights, their jobs and their reputations.

I would like more victims to feel comfortable to report, I think that is pretty obvious by now, but it does serve natural justice to if the only alternative to the current processes is a reversal of natural justice to the point that the accused is guilt till proven innocent.

There surely has to be a middle ground?.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Lavenderb said:


> My daughter is the same. And me.....but I recognise that a lot can't deal with it so well.


*Without wanting to offend anyone, i understand that some don't handle it like others. What i don't understand is why.
First and foremost i sure as hell wouldn't feel guilty for something i knew wasn't my fault.*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> In theory I agree with alot of what you say, sadly where you seem to end up in constant arguments with people is your interpretation, or misinterpretation of what is said - almost to the point of taking it out of context.
> 
> Suzy has not said that every 15yo abused will suffer more trauma than an adult - simply that the victims age may have an effect on reactions. teenage boys that claimed abuse by Jonathon King went back repeatidly despite not wanting the attention they recieved... the fact they were 15 yrs old probably had an effect on their judgements, most likely undergo things that they wouldnt at maybe 18yo. This is not the case for all, but I feel it is certainly a reasonable thought that 15yo's dont always know the best way to respond to things, expecially when commited by adults or people of some authority.


As I said, it is a factor, but it is only one of many and there is in my opinion an unhelpful preoccupation with it in this debate.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> Ok suit yerself! lol But if its "come alive", you`d be interested, yes?


At moment no lol its not so much fun at nearly 30wks pregnant as it is when your not


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> ...and for me the crux of the matter is how do you change this? How do you help more victims feel comfortable and confident to report the assault?
> 
> I do not think it is helpful for women, as they so often inclined to, to take the stance that nobody cares, nobody listens and therefore why should we report?
> People DO listen and people DO care. There are imperfections in the system yes, but would it not be more productive to focus on identifying them and *proposing improvements?*
> ...


Improvements are always being made. That's why so many more victims speak up now, but there are only so many improvements that can be made.

I will add that your posts are littered with contradictions. You accept certain facts in one sentence and then blow them away in another. Could you make more sense?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> I would be the same probably Jan! I wouldnt let the effers win!!! but I do see that everyone is different and deals with situations in completely different ways
> 
> What breaks some makes others if u get what I mean


*And this is where i have a " problem" Suzy. I am NO different to the next person.But we ALL have the means to deal with things if we HAVE to.
That's why i won't and can't understand some "victims".
Again i go back to why i started this thread. Nothing is as simple as it might appear.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cromford said:


> ...and for me the crux of the matter is how do you change this? How do you help more victims feel comfortable and confident to report the assault?
> 
> I do not think it is helpful for women, as they so often inclined to, to take the stance that nobody cares, nobody listens and therefore why should we report?
> People DO listen and people DO care. There are imperfections in the system yes, but would it not be more productive to focus on identifying them and proposing improvements?
> ...


*I think i have based my posts on seeing the situation from both sides.*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I am not saying older people cannot FEEL the same way as younger people !!!! - how victims DEAL with trauma is what I think will differ as far as age is concerned of course there will be instances to the contrary I am not disputing that but for the most part I think how we deal with anything in life differs the older we become - hence the saying " If only I knew then what I know now"
> 
> How victims FEEL is not going to be determined by age!!! that is emotion that ANYONE will feel - I have tried to say that time and time again on here!!
> 
> So now you say age does have a factor?? for at least two pages you argued with me it does not?? :confused


No, you misunderstand. I'm pretty consistent in my view. You cannot generalise, as you are inclined to, about the influence of age on how a victim, or for that matter an offender, behaves either before or after the event.

This time you argue that it's not about feelings but it is about how a victim deals with the aftermath that is age related.

I am consistent, in saying that you have to take each case on its merits and consider all factors holistically. It is all about the specific context.

You may have interpreted my remarks as suggesting that age is not a factor, but that is a gross oversimplification of what I have actually said.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think i have based my posts on seeing the situation from both sides.*


Indeed you have Janice. You have both my admiration and my congratulations.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cromford said:


> No, you misunderstand. I'm pretty consistent in my view. You cannot generalise, as you are inclined to, about the influence of age on how a victim, or for that matter an offender, behaves either before or after the event.
> 
> This time you argue that it's not about feelings but it is about how a victim deals with the aftermath that is age related.
> 
> ...


I am not the only one to say you are pretty inconsistent in your views and you contradict yourself constantly - I think now you would argue with anything I say so perhaps you should point your discussion at others in this thead and not me - I know other members here know what I said and Im happy with that


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> ...and for me the crux of the matter is how do you change this? How do you help more victims feel comfortable and confident to report the assault?
> 
> I do not think it is helpful for women, as they so often inclined to, to take the stance that nobody cares, nobody listens and therefore why should we report?
> People DO listen and people DO care. There are imperfections in the system yes, but would it not be more productive to focus on identifying them and proposing improvements?
> ...


One of the ways the victim could be made more comfortable is getting rid of this notion that the victim was just 'asking for it'. That's one of the biggest problems in our society, we just brush off the victim when we perceive them to be less contrite, less innocent than we would like. We're a 'liberal' society, yet we still hold ridiculous social conventions.

Another way things could be improve is by tackling the situation in schools, so both boys and girls understand that it's nothing to be ashamed of and there are organisations out there that can help.

Unfortunately it's a lot to do with family conditioning - older generations are so fixed in their view of this issue that it affects younger generations, as we can see in this debate. All age groups need to change their stance on this issue, otherwise the issue will persist. Unfortunately you cannot teach an old dogs new tricks, so the issue will persist on some level.



JANICE199 said:


> *Without wanting to offend anyone, i understand that some don't handle it like others. What i don't understand is why.
> First and foremost i sure as hell wouldn't feel guilty for something i knew wasn't my fault.*





JANICE199 said:


> *And this is where i have a " problem" Suzy. I am NO different to the next person.But we ALL have the means to deal with things if we HAVE to.
> That's why i won't and can't understand some "victims".
> Again i go back to why i started this thread. Nothing is as simple as it might appear.*


I think perhaps you're being a little too harsh on victims who do struggle to deal with it. Again, it goes back to someone's ability to take or not take [email protected] You are obviously the kind of person that stands up for themselves and you are obviously a very strong person who can deal with the rubbish life throws.

Unfortunately not everyone is as strong, it could be due to excessive bullying, maybe lack of self-esteem or self-confidence, maybe they were brought up by their parents to have an inferiority complex, you just don't know. Rather than telling these people that they have to stand up for themselves (which will only decrease their self-confidence further), we have to make sure we include them in our solutions to these kinds of problems.

You may not understand their viewpoint but that doesn't mean they're wrong, in the same way as you aren't wrong for your viewpoint. We are all different and we all deal in different ways, and we have to be aware of this and willing to work round it otherwise these problems will persist.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *And this is where i have a " problem" Suzy. I am NO different to the next person.But we ALL have the means to deal with things if we HAVE to.
> That's why i won't and can't understand some "victims".
> Again i go back to why i started this thread. Nothing is as simple as it might appear.*


I think confidence is a huge factor to be honest. I think the type of person that would act inappropriately picks up on that as well!

I am a different person now than I was some yrs ago... I am 100times more confident in myself and my job for example, I would deal with things alot different now as say when I was 15. At 15, I would probably not have said anything... My old manager actually tried it on with me at 16 or 17 and I didnt tell a soul, including my BF, I was quiet as a mouse. It wasnt abuse, just him getting carried away and being a bit of a perv. 
I did complain at my previous job - and was quite up front to the people in question - but I never really made a huge scene and hoo har; again no one outside of work knew about any of it - just that I hated work but never why...

Now, having been thrown in the deep end at work and dealing with all sorts, I am totally different; I will pull someone up on the smallest thing (Im youngest in the office by 25yrs, and a girl - people do wierd things, especially older chaps.... One bloke stood stroking my hair til I asked him why he was doing it and pointed out i wasnt a cat). They all know, without fail, that they would get nothing but a shi*tstorm if they got out of line with me. That was what I never had at my previous job; I was meek and seen as an easy target. Im not a b*tch to them; we have a laugh and a joke, but I am to be treated as they do anyone else in the office.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *And this is where i have a " problem" Suzy. I am NO different to the next person.But we ALL have the means to deal with things if we HAVE to.
> That's why i won't and can't understand some "victims".
> Again i go back to why i started this thread. Nothing is as simple as it might appear.*


I agree that nothing is clear cut - nothing is text book and that is because even though we are ALL human we IMO do not ALL have the means to deal with things in the same way - perhaps that is why there is such confusion


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I think perhaps you're being a little too harsh on victims who do struggle to deal with it. Again, it goes back to someone's ability to take or not take [email protected] You are obviously the kind of person that stands up for themselves and you are obviously a very strong person who can deal with the rubbish life throws.
> 
> Unfortunately not everyone is as strong, it could be due to excessive bullying, maybe lack of self-esteem or self-confidence, maybe they were brought up by their parents to have an inferiority complex, you just don't know. Rather than telling these people that they have to stand up for themselves (which will only decrease their self-confidence further), we have to make sure we include them in our solutions to these kinds of problems.
> 
> You may not understand their viewpoint but that doesn't mean they're wrong, in the same way as you aren't wrong for your viewpoint. We are all different and we all deal in different ways, and we have to be aware of this and willing to work round it otherwise these problems will persist.


*Ok i'll give a very brief account of my back ground. No mum at home, 9 kids so bulling was common place. I use the term bulling loosly.
Every morning, once i was school age, i would wait with the other kids to get the bus to school.
No one of the kids would constantly pick on me.To the point i had bruises all up my shins where they always kicked me.
My oldest sister was like a mum to me, so i told her. She replied, and i kid you not, " sort it out yourself and don't come crying to me again". I said how? her reply was " i don't care, even if you have to pick something up to hit them with".
Hello, i learnt early to stand up for myself, if and when i could.
Still think i was born strong? i wasn't.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i'll give a very brief account of my back ground. No mum at home, 9 kids so bulling was common place. I use the term bulling loosly.
> Every morning, once i was school age, i would wait with the other kids to get the bus to school.
> No one of the kids would constantly pick on me.To the point i had bruises all up my shins where they always kicked me.
> My oldest sister was like a mum to me, so i told her. She replied, and i kid you not, " sort it out yourself and don't come crying to me again". I said how? her reply was " i don't care, even if you have to pick something up to hit them with".
> ...


But what happened to you is precisely my point. The way you grew up affected your ability to cope with [email protected] Not everyone grows up in that way, some people live very cushty lives.

Also, that you could deal with all that [email protected] and come out the other side does actually mean you're a strong person, whether you agree or not.

So at this stage you're just proving my point


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cromford said:


> Indeed you have Janice. You have both my admiration and my congratulations.


*Thank you.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> But what happened to you is precisely my point. The way you grew up affected your ability to cope with [email protected] Not everyone grows up in that way, some people live very cushty lives.
> 
> Also, that you could deal with all that [email protected] and come out the other side does actually mean you're a strong person, whether you agree or not.
> 
> So at this stage you're just proving my point


*You and anyone else can be just the same. It was made damn plain to me i DIDN'T have a choice..Now there is the lesson, we DO have a choice.
Do you not think, as a kid i wanted reassurance? It taught me life can be a sh*t at times, but complaining about it, isn't going to change it.
Now when people talk of " genuine" cases of sexual assault or worse, believe you me, my heart goes out to them.*


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Without wanting to offend anyone, i understand that some don't handle it like others. What i don't understand is why.*


when i pointed out that the difference between banter and harrassment depended on how the person handled it, and some of the reasons why they might handle it differently to the way you do about 20 pages ago, you told me that only 'the pc brigade' thinks that...


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> One of the ways the victim could be made more comfortable is *getting rid of this notion that the victim was just 'asking for it'.* That's one of the biggest problems in our society, we just brush off the victim when we perceive them to be less contrite, less innocent than we would like. We're a 'liberal' society, yet we still hold ridiculous social conventions.
> 
> Another way things could be improve is by tackling the situation in schools, so both boys and girls understand that it's nothing to be ashamed of and there are organisations out there that can help.
> 
> Unfortunately it's a lot to do with family conditioning - older generations are so fixed in their view of this issue that it affects younger generations, as we can see in this debate. All age groups need to change their stance on this issue, otherwise the issue will persist. Unfortunately you cannot teach an old dogs new tricks, so the issue will persist on some level.


I don't know anyone that holds to the view that the victim was 'asking for it'. I really don't accept that that is a widely held attitude at all. It may be a commonly used 'argument' when offenders seek to justify their actions, but I doubt very much that it is a common 'notion' amongst the general public.

I understand where you are coming from re the schooling situation and I agree with the sentiment about early education. I would however like to see more parents recognise their responsibilities on moral issues rather than always fobbing things off on schools. We agree on the basic objective but perhaps not completely on the mechanism (schools have a role, but I think parents have a bigger role).

I'm not entirely sure I get your point in the last paragraph. I would say however that I am (probably) one of the 'older generation' and I think the only thing my views are 'fixed' on is that each case is individual and that there are no grounds for generalisation.

In terms of how things improve, I feel sure that is the only good thing to emerge from the latest Savile scandal. Victims are beginning to realise that they are not alone and that they WILL be listened to. There is a long road still to travel, but the type of publicity given to the Savile case is I think terribly helpful and that already seems to be borne out in the statistics. Unfortunately it seems it took his death to gift people the courage to come forward. As far as victims are concerned that is unfortunate but understandable. As far as his colleagues at the BBC are concerned it is unforgivable. It would help witnesses live up to their moral responsibilities in future, if some of those who now claim to have known, were prosecuted for child neglect or whatever other charge might be made to stick.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i'll give a very brief account of my back ground. No mum at home, 9 kids so bulling was common place. I use the term bulling loosly.
> Every morning, once i was school age, i would wait with the other kids to get the bus to school.
> No one of the kids would constantly pick on me.To the point i had bruises all up my shins where they always kicked me.
> My oldest sister was like a mum to me, so i told her. She replied, and i kid you not, " sort it out yourself and don't come crying to me again". I said how? her reply was " i don't care, even if you have to pick something up to hit them with".
> ...


But dont you see Jan - how you grew- how you were raised has had a huge impact on who you are and your personality ?? - you HAD to - being tough was your coping mechanism.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *You and anyone else can be just the same. It was made damn plain to me i DIDN'T have a choice..Now there is the lesson, we DO have a choice.
> Do you not think, as a kid i wanted reassurance? It taught me life can be a sh*t at times, but complaining about it, isn't going to change it.
> Now when people talk of " genuine" cases of sexual assault or worse, believe you me, my heart goes out to them.*


You're contradicting yourself a little now, Janice.

No one is the same. You can put two people in exactly the same situation and they will both handle it differently. No one person is the same as another in exactly the same way as no leaf is identical to another. With all due respect, this is something you need to accept as a part of life, something which I think you don't accept looking at your posts.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think what happened to me would be a police matter, it is something I could've and did deal with myself. But I recognise that, while I felt awful, it was something I could deal with because I'm a firm believer in "someone always has it worse". Not everyone has that viewpoint, so each assault must be taken on an individual level. This creates a massive grey area and this is what I feel you don't accept. It comes across like you want to make the issue very black and white, i.e. this is sexual assault, this isn't, if it's not then you deal with it. That works great for people who can deal with it but the crux of the matter is that not many people can. It doesn't matter whether you understand it or not, the fact is it's there and groups that support sexual assault have to take this into consideration.

I think you should look at your viewpoint and soften your approach a little, the world has moved on from the way it dealt with things in your generation and many people did not grow up the way you did.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I am not the only one to say you are pretty inconsistent in your views and you contradict yourself constantly - I think now you would argue with anything I say so perhaps you should point your discussion at others in this thead and not me - I know other members here know what I said and Im happy with that


Consistently Inconsistent.

I can live with that. If nothing else it demonstrates an openness of mind sadly lacking in many of the contributions.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

tiatortilla said:


> when i pointed out that the difference between banter and harrassment depended on how the person handled it, and some of the reasons why they might handle it differently to the way you do about 20 pages ago, you told me that only 'the pc brigade' thinks that...


*And what i said then i stand by.*


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Cromford said:


> Consistently Inconsistent.
> 
> I can live with that. If nothing else it demonstrates an openness of mind sadly lacking in many of the contributions.


Is that what you were trying to demonstrate? :laugh:

Then you failed.

You demonstrated a few things.....in the interests of keeping the thread open I won't say what, but we all, including you, know what you showed in this thread.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


suzy93074 said:



But dont you see Jan - how you grew- how you were raised has had a huge impact on who you are and your personality ?? - you HAD to - being tough was your coping mechanism.

Click to expand...

 Suzy surely you could say that to those who moan about unwanted attention from men.


Rabbitmonkee said:



You're contradicting yourself a little now, Janice.

No one is the same. You can put two people in exactly the same situation and they will both handle it differently. No one person is the same as another in exactly the same way as no leaf is identical to another. With all due respect, this is something you need to accept as a part of life, something which I think you don't accept looking at your posts.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think what happened to me would be a police matter, it is something I could've and did deal with myself. But I recognise that, while I felt awful, it was something I could deal with because I'm a firm believer in "someone always has it worse". Not everyone has that viewpoint, so each assault must be taken on an individual level. This creates a massive grey area and this is what I feel you don't accept. It comes across like you want to make the issue very black and white, i.e. this is sexual assault, this isn't, if it's not then you deal with it. That works great for people who can deal with it but the crux of the matter is that not many people can. It doesn't matter whether you understand it or not, the fact is it's there and groups that support sexual assault have to take this into consideration.

I think you should look at your viewpoint and soften your approach a little, the world has moved on from the way it dealt with things in your generation and many people did not grow up the way you did.

Click to expand...

NO i'm not contradicting myself. I could now argue that you choose not to see my point of view.
I stated earlier, we were both born the same.Things happen whether we like it or not.How you as a person chooses to deal with it is down to you.
I chose not to be a victim. Now to say i can do that because i'm stronger, is taking the pee in my book.
Now try and see the situation from my side, i did yours.*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> Suzy surely you could say that to those who moan about unwanted attention from men.
> 
> NO i'm not contradicting myself. I could now argue that you choose not to see my point of view.
> ...


I'm confused as to why you think I'm taking the pee? I meant it as a compliment?

Also, I would like to point out that although we are all born human, we are all born with different personalities. Our personalities dictate how we deal with things.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *And what i said then i stand by.*


wow, that's pretty closed minded. so somebody who suffers from mental health problems should be able to just brush it off and get over it just because you can... sorry but i'm afraid that's not how the world works. also, why say you don't want to offend anyone and then come out with comments like that? i'd rather be too PC anyway than have such blatant disregard for people who need more support tbh.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> You're contradicting yourself a little now, Janice.
> 
> No one is the same. You can put two people in exactly the same situation and they will both handle it differently. No one person is the same as another in exactly the same way as no leaf is identical to another. With all due respect, this is something you need to accept as a part of life, something which I think you don't accept looking at your posts.
> 
> ...


I refer you to my remarks about the rights of the accused and their families.

You cannot have a situation that has no legal structure or guidance and in which the 'victim' is free to determine what does and what does not constitute sexual assault. There have to be some definitions otherwise you have legal anarchy and a free for all that would see thousands of innocent lives destroyed.

This is perhaps where the distinction between banter/harassment and assault comes in. The victims perception of this has to be taken into account, but so too does the perception of the accused. It cannot be a one-sided 'guilty till proven innocent' feeding frenzy.


----------



## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

oh and another thing, you did not choose not to be a victim. you might think you did, but only because you don't have any understanding of how a weaker person's brain works. people ARE born different, i have depression and anxiety and have been told by doctors it can be caused by a chemical inbalance in the brain. now tell me i can make the decision to think completely differently?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I'm confused as to why you think I'm taking the pee? I meant it as a compliment?
> 
> Also, I would like to point out that although we are all born human, we are all born with different personalities. Our personalities dictate how we deal with things.


*You have misunderstood my point.I wasn't saying you were taking the pee, but i could, if i so wished interpret it that way.
*


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I refer you to my remarks about the rights of the accused and their families.
> 
> You cannot have a situation that has no legal structure or guidance and in which the 'victim' is free to determine what does and what does not constitute sexual assault. There have to be some definitions otherwise you have legal anarchy and a free for all that would see thousands of innocent lives destroyed.
> 
> This is perhaps where the distinction between banter/harassment and assault comes in. The victims perception of this has to be taken into account, but so too does the perception of the accused. It cannot be a one-sided 'guilty till proven innocent' feeding frenzy.


Ohh my, I think you have a little trouble reading. Nowhere did I say the accused shouldn't come in to it, the problem is at the minute, the accused is listened to far more than the victim. Take, for example, the current scandal in the Catholic and CofE Churches in the UK and Ireland. For years those abuses went unreported because people would believe the accused over the victim. However much you protest the opposite, the fact is there is still a massive social stigma attached to the accused.

Also, please do not try and talk to me about the affect on the accused's family, you won't know this but my boyfriend has had stigma attached to him throughout his childhood and teenage years because of the actions of his father. In this I feel confident in saying I'm aware of the repercussions more so than yourself.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *You have misunderstood my point.I wasn't saying you were taking the pee, but i could, if i so wished interpret it that way.
> *


Ok, fair enough. But you've also ignored my point that we are not born the same. We might be the same species but we are all genetically and mentally unique, therefore we deal with things in different ways.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Ok, fair enough. But you've also ignored my point that we are not born the same. We might be the same species but we are all genetically and mentally unique, therefore we deal with things in different ways.


both my recent points got ignored, too. can't really argue with a doctor that everyone is born the same so i suppose that's why!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

tiatortilla said:


> oh and another thing, you did not choose not to be a victim. you might think you did, but only because you don't have any understanding of how a weaker person's brain works. people ARE born different, i have depression and anxiety and have been told by doctors it can be caused by a chemical inbalance in the brain. now tell me i can make the decision to think completely differently?


*If you believe that then you don't know me at all. I know only too well what its like for people to suffer from depression.
The fact that i choose not to tell the world and his wife about my life is my prerogative.*


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Ok, fair enough. But you've also ignored my point that we are not born the same. We might be the same species but we are all genetically and mentally unique, therefore we deal with things in different ways.


*I didn't ignore your point.I answered how i saw fit.*


----------



## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *If you believe that then you don't know me at all. I know only too well what its like for people to suffer from depression.
> The fact that i choose not to tell the world and his wife about my life is my prerogative.*


i only told you to try and get you to see, i can assure you it's not something i like to advertise, if that's what you're implying with your last comment.
and if you do understand, why not accept that people cope differently?


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I didn't ignore your point.I answered how i saw fit.*


But your answer doesn't make sense. You can't say we're all born the same when biologically we're not. Yes, 99% of our DNA is the same, but we also share 99% of our DNA with a banana. Are you saying humans are like bananas?


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I refer you to my remarks about the rights of the accused and their families.
> 
> You cannot have a situation that has no legal structure or guidance and in which the 'victim' is free to determine what does and what does not constitute sexual assault. There have to be some definitions otherwise you have legal anarchy and a free for all that would see thousands of innocent lives destroyed.
> 
> This is perhaps where the distinction between banter/harassment and assault comes in. The victims perception of this has to be taken into account, but so too does the perception of the accused. It cannot be a one-sided 'guilty till proven innocent' feeding frenzy.


Sadly because there isnt any set "lines" between harrassment and banter, the application of the law or company rules very much come down to the individual dealing with the case, which isnt fair as it means 2 people with similar accussations could be treated very differently.

I would like to think that common sense would prevail based on the action, the words and the tone in context for someone to determine if they think they are suffering abuse, or misconstrued banter. I like to think that I could list down what I experianced and put a line next to each as abuse, harrassment or just banter and I am 99% sure most people who saw it would agree with my definitions ; however there will always be people who disagree or would put what i deem banter as harrassment, and harrassment as abuse; which is where the unfortunate situation for men comes in where they just dont understand the line, because it moves!

What I tolerated from the lads, and didnt formalise as I recognised it as "engineers humour" as it were, another woman may get them fired over.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Ohh my, I think you have a little trouble reading. Nowhere did I say the accused shouldn't come in to it, the problem is at the minute, the accused is listened to far more than the victim. Take, for example, the current scandal in the Catholic and CofE Churches in the UK and Ireland. For years those abuses went unreported because people would believe the accused over the victim. However much you protest the opposite, the fact is there is still a massive social stigma attached to the accused.
> 
> Also, please do not try and talk to me about the affect on the accused's family, you won't know this but my boyfriend has had stigma attached to him throughout his childhood and teenage years because of the actions of his father. In this I feel confident in saying I'm aware of the repercussions more so than yourself.


I really think you need to revisit my comments if you think I don't recognise the stigma of the victim.

As for your final paragraph. That just about sums up all that is worse with many of the attitudes on display in here.

I point out that the accused and their families have rights too and I'm berated because my remarks have direct pertinence to your family? How does that work?

Suggest you go lay down in a dark room and take a break from this.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Cromford said:


> I can imagine.
> 
> Sweet tea...that's supposed to be good for shock...


Now you see I don`t have sugar in my tea so that`s probably why I`m rarely shocked.....


----------



## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> I really think you need to revisit my comments if you think I don't recognise the stigma of the victim.
> 
> As for your final paragraph. That just about sums up all that is worse with many of the attitudes on display in here.
> 
> ...


Nice attempt at patronisation, unfortunately it won't work on me :hand:

I think your recognition of the victim is warped. You think if the victim reports the incident something will happen to deal with it. You've been given plenty of evidence which highlights when nothing has come of reporting, in particular to the lady who works as an engineer.

I included my family in this as a subtle hint to tell you not to patronise me when it comes to understanding the impact sexual assault has on the family of the accused. I understand the impact perfectly and I can tell you it breaks families apart. These families must be considered when dealing with sexual assault, there is no doubt about it.

This doesn't detract from my original point, however, that the victim should be the first priority and is currently not given enough weight in these situations.


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Sadly because there isnt any set "lines" between harrassment and banter, the application of the law or company rules very much come down to the individual dealing with the case, which isnt fair as it means 2 people with similar accussations could be treated very differently.
> 
> I would like to think that common sense would prevail based on the action, the words and the tone in context for someone to determine if they think they are suffering abuse, or misconstrued banter. I like to think that I could list down what I experianced and put a line next to each as abuse, harrassment or just banter and I am 99% sure most people who saw it would agree with my definitions ; however there will always be people who disagree or would put what i deem banter as harrassment, and harrassment as abuse; which is where the unfortunate situation for men comes in where they just dont understand the line, because it moves!
> 
> What I tolerated from the lads, and didnt formalise as I recognised it as "engineers humour" as it were, another woman may get them fired over.


Pretty much agree completely with your remarks here. I would only say that it is probably right (in theory) that 2 people with similar circumstances can be treated differently because the circumstances whilst similar are likely to have subtle differences. There do need to be some guidelines though and some attempt at least to achieve a level of consistency in how things are handled.

Think we are pretty much on the same wavelength on this aspect.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Pretty much agree completely with your remarks here. I would only say that it is probably right (in theory) that 2 people with similar circumstances can be treated differently because the circumstances whilst similar are likely to have subtle differences.


seriously, what is with this thread.. you accused me of generalising all men as being lecherous and whatever when i said this before!
i can't cope with this amount of self contradiction. i'm out. properly, this time.


----------



## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Nice attempt at patronisation, unfortunately it won't work on me :hand:
> 
> I think your recognition of the victim is warped. You think if the victim reports the incident something will happen to deal with it. You've been given plenty of evidence which highlights when nothing has come of reporting, in particular to the lady who works as an engineer.
> 
> ...


In the space of two comments you have managed to go from telling me (I hasten to add AFTER I commented about the rights of the accused) that

"You might not know this but my boyfriend is stigmatised because of the deeds of his father"

to

"Don't patronise me by talking about the rights of the accused"

Help me out here. How can I possibly have patronised you in relation to subject matter that you yourself point out I could not possibly have known about?

It would be tempting to some to make a genuinely patronising remark at this juncture, but I won't.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> seriously, what is with this thread.. you accused me of generalising all men as being lecherous and whatever when i said this before!
> i can't cope with this amount of self contradiction. i'm out. properly, this time.


Did I really? Care to point the comment(s) out in their proper context? Which page gof the thread?


----------



## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> In the space of two comments you have managed to go from telling me (I hasten to add AFTER I commented about the rights of the accused) that
> 
> "You might not know this but my boyfriend is stigmatised because of the deeds of his father"
> 
> ...


Aaaahhh nothing like a university lecturer (not professor? Interesting..) who doesn't understand plain English.

Ok, back to basics.

You wouldn't be aware of the stigma attached to my boyfriend even now, as you obviously do not know him. This is no reflection on you, you just simply haven't met him.

My point was that you don't need to highlight being sensitive to the impact accusations of sexual assault have on the family of the accused because I understand the need to be sensitive very well. I have seen the impact proven accusations have on a family, it is not a pretty picture.

Is this clear enough or do you need a diagram?


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

lets keep the debate a debate on the topic and try not to get personal....Remember everyone has a view, some we agree with and some we don't. We can discuss the differences without putting down a poster....


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Cromford said:


> Did I really? Care to point the comment(s) out in their proper context? Which page gof the thread?


do i care to trawl through over 40 pages of absolute rubbish so i can prove you contradicted yourself? err no. i explained there were people who had reasons for not speaking up about non-physical harrassment because it affects different people differently and you (rather childishly) told me my attitude towards men was horrible, because i'd said your attitude was. there.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Aaaahhh nothing like a university lecturer (not professor? Interesting..) who doesn't understand plain English.
> 
> Ok, back to basics.
> 
> ...


No I don't need a diagram.

I would however like to understand why you accused me of being patronising over personal details that you readily acknowledge I knew nothing about?

Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer.


----------



## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> No I don't need a diagram.
> 
> I would however like to understand why you accused me of being patronising over personal details that you readily acknowledge I knew nothing about?
> 
> Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer.


I accused you of being patronising in your tone of posting, not of personal details. All of your posts come across as patronising, might be something for you to bear in mind.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


tiatortilla said:



i only told you to try and get you to see, i can assure you it's not something i like to advertise, if that's what you're implying with your last comment.
and if you do understand, why not accept that people cope differently?

Click to expand...

 I have said i do know that people cope differently. But i also believe that some choose to be the victim.
I chose not to be.



Rabbitmonkee said:



But your answer doesn't make sense. You can't say we're all born the same when biologically we're not. Yes, 99% of our DNA is the same, but we also share 99% of our DNA with a banana. Are you saying humans are like bananas?

Click to expand...

Some i would say would have been better off being the banana.*


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *http://www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/pdfs/sexual_assault.pdf
> 
> After all the news lately i wanted to find out just what constituted sexual assault and came across the link above.
> I have to say after reading it i find it very worrying.And i think our politically correct society has gone mad.
> ...


The original question to refresh everyone's memory!!!!


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Some i would say would have been better off being the banana.*


*Priceless  :lol::lol::lol:*


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> I have said i do know that people cope differently. But i also believe that some choose to be the victim.
> I chose not to be.*


yes, but you keep banging on about why. not everybody has the willpower to make the so-called decision not to be a victim, which has been explained to you over and over, but you won't accept that just because you coped with some difficult times that other people might struggle and not cope as well as you.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

and cheers for the response Cromford! i take it you remember the hugely contradictory statements you've been chucking around now..

now, as long as nobody else responds to me i really will try and leave now!


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Some i would say would have been better off being the banana.*


I can't argue with you there!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I accused you of being patronising in your tone of posting, not of personal details. All of your posts come across as patronising, might be something for you to bear in mind.


No you did not. This is the first time you have made any remark about the 'tone' of my posting.

You were quite specific.

You took umbridge at my comments about the rights of the accused by berating me, telling me I 'should not talk to you about the rights of the accused'. You spat your dummy and told me I had no right to comment on this because you know better by virtue of your personal experience.

I ask again, given that I raised the topic before you announced your personal experience, how could I possibly have been 'patronsing' you?

Just curious as to how your mind works.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> No you did not. This is the first time you have made any remark about the 'tone' of my posting.
> 
> You were quite specific.
> 
> ...


Not as curious as I am about how yours works.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> and cheers for the response Cromford! i take it you remember the hugely contradictory statements you've been chucking around now..
> 
> now, as long as nobody else responds to me i really will try and leave now!


It would appear you cannot remember or be specific about these 'hugely contradictory statements'.

I shouldn't be surprised.

I wonder if I have grounds under that loosely formulated legislation that Janice raised, to feel that I have been 'sexually assaulted' in this thread?

Emotionally abused. Repeatedly.

I may have to go cry. I'd report it to someone if only I thought the support systems were out there.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> No you did not. This is the first time you have made any remark about the 'tone' of my posting.
> 
> You were quite specific.
> 
> ...


Ok, let me clarify.

When you were talking about how accusations affect the family of the accused, I was saying that you're preaching to the choir about this. You were being patronising in the sense that you assumed I had no idea how accusations affect the accused and their family, when I have a very good idea of it.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> The original question to refresh everyone's memory!!!!


Well I think we will have to accept that everyone has a different view of what they deem as sexual harrassment/asssault/abuse. Even though the judges have the power to make their rulings based on criteria laid out in print before them, there is always room to make adjustments based on beliefs and morals.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Cromford said:


> It would appear you cannot remember or be specific about these 'hugely contradictory statements'.
> 
> I shouldn't be surprised.


oh dear. really?
i quoted the second statement and then when you, quite absurdly, suggested i find your original posts for you (there is an option to 'find all posts' btw..), i simply told you what you said. which contradicted the second statement.
anyway i have now concluded: definite troll. nobody is that dense...
see ya!


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> Ok, let me clarify.
> 
> When you were talking about how accusations affect the family of the accused, I was saying that you're preaching to the choir about this. You were being patronising in the sense that you assumed I had no idea how accusations affect the accused and their family, when I have a very good idea of it.


For goodness sake!

Sadly for you the world does not revolve around you.

My comments relating to the rights of the accused go back many, many pages on this thread. They were not then, and never have been directed at anyone personally and certainly were not for your exclusive consumption. I had no idea about your personal circumstances and frankly they would only serve to reinforce my opinion if I had. Perhaps you should take a break from the debate? Your obviously taking things way too personally.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Well this thread was reopened at the end of page 34 and started getting personal again on page 36, so either we quit getting so personal or Janice is not going to be happy that her thread is once again closed for moderating. We have to close it to do that because it is a long interesting thread and don't want to delete posts that maintain the flow.....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

quoting of posts that are going to get deleted is what makes us have to close the thread. I am trying very hard not to close this discussion but you guys are not helping.....


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> For goodness sake!
> 
> Sadly for you the world does not revolve around you.
> 
> My comments relating to the rights of the accused go back many, many pages on this thread. They were not then, and never have been directed at anyone personally and certainly were not for your exclusive consumption. I had no idea about your personal circumstances and frankly they would only serve to reinforce my opinion if I had. Perhaps you should take a break from the debate? Your obviously taking things way too personally.


I'm well aware the world does not revolve around me, nor have I said the comments were directed at me personally. Given that _you_ quoted _me_, I was simply responding.

I'm not taking anything personally, I'm saying you're coming across as incredibly patronising and you constantly contradict yourself throughout your posts. Before you ask, no I'm not going back over 30 pages of stuff to highlight where you're being contradictory because I really can't be bothered. I have a Dominos pizza arriving any minute and it holds far more interest to me.

The fact is you don't come across through your posts as the person you claim to be, i.e. a university lecturer. Surely, if you are so proud of your PhD (as anyone would be), you would be happy to share your work. Most academics are more than willing to point people in the direction of their work as it is something they're very proud of. You refused to do this when asked, which strikes me as odd.

On numerous occasions you have been asked direct questions and have refused to answer, rather you have beaten around the bush and redirected the question or taken it off on a different tangent altogether.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> It would appear you cannot remember or be specific about these 'hugely contradictory statements'.
> 
> I shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> ...


Well apparently another member on here took a member of another forum to court for online harrassment/abuse and he won monies in compensation. Go ask Doggiebag, he was the victim.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I'm well aware the world does not revolve around me, nor have I said the comments were directed at me personally. Given that _you_ quoted _me_, I was simply responding.
> 
> I'm not taking anything personally, I'm saying you're coming across as incredibly patronising and you constantly contradict yourself throughout your posts. Before you ask, no I'm not going back over 30 pages of stuff to highlight where you're being contradictory because I really can't be bothered. I have a Dominos pizza arriving any minute and it holds far more interest to me.
> 
> ...


If it strikes you as odd that I refuse to divulge personal details to a complete stranger on an internet forum, it merely serves to your naivety.

Your interest in your pizza may be mutual as I suspect it has more interest in you than I do, so I'm amused that you would even think I might offer up personal information to you.

If it upsets you that I won't answer your questions, stop asking them. I would have though that an obvious solution, even for you.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Cromford said:


> If it strikes you as odd that I refuse to divulge personal details to a complete stranger on an internet forum, it merely serves to your naivety.
> 
> Your interest in your pizza may be mutual as I suspect it has more interest in you than I do, so I'm amused that you would even think I might offer up personal information to you.
> 
> If it upsets you that I won't answer your questions, stop asking them. I would have though that an obvious solution, even for you.


Another excellent example of redirection. Giving out the topic of your PhD will not give out any personal information. I can give you my degree subject if you like? It's the same thing.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Well apparently another member on here took a member of another forum to court for online harrassment/abuse and he won monies in compensation. Go ask Doggiebag, he was the victim.


Whoever he/she is or was they sure seem to have got under your skin.

I'd hate to think I'd become so obsessed by an anonymous internet poster.

Has this got anything to do with the subject of the thread? If it has it's passing me by.......


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Cromford said:


> Whoever he/she is or was they sure seem to have got under your skin.
> 
> I'd hate to think I'd become so obsessed by an anonymous internet poster.
> 
> Has this got anything to do with the subject of the thread? If it has it's passing me by.......


Yes he was the victim of online abuse. He never revealed the details but for all I know it may have been sexually related.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> quoting of posts that are going to get deleted is what makes us have to close the thread. I am trying very hard not to close this discussion but you guys are not helping.....


*Jill you might as well close it. Its now got to not a debate now but more of point scoring. So sad.*


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Yes he was the victim of online abuse. He never revealed the details but for all I know it may have been sexually related.


That's a terrible thought.

You can but hope that nobody would be so lacking in moral integrity to use that possibility as a petty point scoring exercise in an Internet forum debate.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Jill you might as well close it. Its now got to not a debate now but more of point scoring. So sad.*


Seconded. Any attempt at civilised debate disappeared a long time ago.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Jill you might as well close it. Its now got to not a debate now but more of point scoring. So sad.*


I was debating actually, except Cromford completely ignored the last statement I put to them.


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## Cromford (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I was debating actually, except Cromford completely ignored the last statement I put to them.


Sorry it wasn't intentional. It just gets a little overwhelming trying to respond to so many emotive posts simultaneously.

Let me look to see what it was I ignored....


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Closing this now.


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