# Puggles



## Sjenner77 (Jul 29, 2013)

Would a puggle make a good pet for a child?

My son is desperate for one, having researched lots of breeds, bless him!

But I don't know much about them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Without knowing your son, it's impossible to tell whether they're responsible enough to *own* a dog. Having said that, it would be you that owned the dog, and your son who would look after the dog (or you to a greater or lesser extent).

Puggles are a cross breed, from what I've read, some seem to be prone to juvenile kidney disease and deformities of the front legs, neither of which are something that are easily tested for. There are definitely some *healthy* examples of this cross breed, but for me I wouldn't risk it. Edited to add, sorry, not juvenile kidney disease, that's cockerpoos, but badly undershot/overshot jaws.


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## lily74 (Jan 13, 2012)

Being crossed with a pug and a beagle they could have either or both traits. I know pugs can suffer from lots of health problems and you have to be commited to looking after their skin as it has deep folds. Beagles are scent hounds and can run off when off lead if they pick up a scent!

How old is your son? I know rescues let you adopt if your children are over a certain age and they can match the perfect dog up with your family needs.

If it is a puppy you want then make sure both parents of the dog are health tested for that particular breed/cross.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Puggles can be great little dogs both breeds have nice temperments and are child friendly but they can be unhealthy as well. Beagles are I think one of the healthiest breeds but pugs come with a ton of problems and they might not be cancelled out by crossing. You need to do your research into both breeds and see if you can handle the worst of both combined.

I don't know how old your son is but if you're getting a dog for a child expect to be the main caregiver or at least be supervising to ensure he does all the work.

Purebred beagles make nice family pets if you can handle such a scent orientated dog and as I said are healthy and unexaggerated. They are scent driven, difficult to teach recall too and can be resource guarders though.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

A brachycephalic breed crossed with a hunting type? IMO, a very unfortunate crossbreed. What's wrong with a beagle, for example? Sorry to be harsh, but I think this cross, of all the designer crosses, is a very poor idea. I wouldn't advocate any puppy unless the parents were health tested for all issues relating to the two different breeds. 

If your son is underage, he should be guided by you. The puppy can't be labelled with either temperament and may be fab or not, all depends on the individual dog. I've got two brothers, hugely different, brought up the same.


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## Sjenner77 (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks for the replies!

Sorry I should have made clear my son is 9 and obviously will be enjoying the dog but I will be the responsible owner. I grew up with lots of pets and we have cats now whom I adore.

I would never make such a big commitment without fully researching, hence the questions! Thanks for all the invaluable information. 

He has his heart set on a puggle but to be honest I think he'd be chuffed to bits with any dog : )


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Make out a list of what you both can realistically handle in terms of temperment, exercise, grooming etc and then see if there are similar breeds that match those criteria. It's great that he's so involved with the research and choosing a pet is one of the best things a child can have.

There are some good puggle breeders but like any breed or cross most are dodgy. It takes a lot of weeding to find a good one.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've asked a friend who originally posted a link to show the sort of deformities they are prone to, to resend, as I can't find it at the moment. 

As long as you do your research, and are happy with the breeder, that they do the right health tests for the breed or cross breed, and offer good support, that's the main thing.


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## Sjenner77 (Jul 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Make out a list of what you both can realistically handle in terms of temperment, exercise, grooming etc and then see if there are similar breeds that match those criteria. It's great that he's so involved with the research and choosing a pet is one of the best things a child can have.
> 
> There are some good puggle breeders but like any breed or cross most are dodgy. It takes a lot of weeding to find a good one.


Yes it's lovely how excited he is. He has made a huge spreadsheet of tasks required to care for a dog properly, including weekly (yikes!) visits to the vet for check ups, walks, feeding, nap times (!) and even when to get nails clipped.

He has researched dog care extensively! He has also chosen beds, collars, toys, brushes - and bookmarked it all.

He is deadly serious about it bless him.

It's finding a breeder that concerns me - I would really need to feel confident.

I am also concerned about the health problems that I know definitely come with pugs.


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## Sjenner77 (Jul 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've asked a friend who originally posted a link to show the sort of deformities they are prone to, to resend, as I can't find it at the moment.
> 
> As long as you do your research, and are happy with the breeder, that they do the right health tests for the breed or cross breed, and offer good support, that's the main thing.


Thank you - I would read that with interest.

I want to be fully briefed before we commit to anything : )


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I hope she can remember where the link is as well, we're probably both as scatty as each other!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

If you can find out what it is he likes about puggles then maybe people on here can suggest similar breeds with fewer potential health problems. 

Good breeders are passionate about the breed/cross and only want them in suitable homes. I was told one of the signs of a good breeder is they'll almost talk you out of the breed to make sure you're suitable if you know what I mean. Make sure the health tests are all in place

The kc recommends Breed council - hemivertebrae checking for pugs and there are a few owners on here that can probably tell you any others.

Beagles

DNA test - MLS
The following other health tests are also available.

DNA test - NCCD

The parents should have a good temperment too it's at least partially inherited. They should be kept in good conditions. Go check out the breeder before the litter is on the ground so no one gets swayed by cute puppies.


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## Sjenner77 (Jul 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> If you can find out what it is he likes about puggles then maybe people on here can suggest similar breeds with fewer potential health problems.
> 
> Good breeders are passionate about the breed/cross and only want them in suitable homes. I was told one of the signs of a good breeder is they'll almost talk you out of the breed to make sure you're suitable if you know what I mean. Make sure the health tests are all in place
> 
> ...


Fantastic thank you I'll check out that info too.

To be perfectly honest I don't know why he particularly went for a puggle. He has aspergers so he is very, very focused. He is unwaveringly loyal once a decision has been made!

He will listen though, if health problems will be an issue and we can maybe try to find another breed that will be less problematic. I think he likes small and cute.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

There are quite a few small, cute and healthy breeds to have a look at once you've narrowed down what you both want more in terms of temperment and grooming.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Steer him towards a Tibetan Spaniel ....lovely easy going little dogs with the same coloration and size as a Pug cross but without all the unpredictability that cross breeds bring.

Look via the Kennel Club's Assured Breeder Scheme or the Breed Club for well bred pups from fully health tested parents.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Bijou said:


> Steer him towards a Tibetan Spaniel ....lovely easy going little dogs with the same coloration and size as a Pug cross but without all the unpredictability that cross breeds bring.
> 
> Look via the Kennel Club's Assured Breeder Scheme or the Breed Club for well bred pups from fully health tested parents.


Yes, yes, yes 
Tibetan Spaniels are lovely little dogs


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

without going into all the health issues etc a puggle sounds really cute.Don't think I have ever seen a puggle.lol


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Puggle is just yet another made up name, designed to sound cute.

Beagles are notoriously unreliable off lead, once they have a scent, they can be offski without a backward glance. Happy to be corrected, but this is their reputation. I think a cross breed, unless coming from a breeder who health tests, is a risky choice and it's possible that you'll be looking at potential health issues.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I was going to suggest it maybe the appearance of the dog and to look for something similar but if your son has high functioning autism he will like them for a VERY specific reason! .. can you find out what the reason is.. if he likes making lists/charts maybe you can encourage him to think of advantages and disadvantages for the reasons he likes them eg.. if its their face due to pug cross in them, then maybe breathing problems would be a disadvantage and you can help him find other breeds looking similar but without the breathing issues?

Pugs snore... if he's sound sensitive maybe you could mention that to him, he may find it difficult to cope with particularly if he wanted dog to sleep in his room. .. maybe discuss the dogs different face shapes and the advantages of breeds that don't snore (or as much/loudly) to steer him towards another breed. 

Is there a Dogs Trust near you? look online see what they got in at your local one and see if any take his interest.. may also get him at least looking up/considering other breeds? Maybe arrange a visit just to look at different dogs to see how he copes with meeting a few who maybe shy, fussy, excitable etc?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Puggles

Have a look at the info on this blog site, not particularly scientific, but highlights the sort of thing that happens with indiscriminate breeding. If you can find a puggle breeder who health tests, understands conformation and can tell you the pups won't suffer from the issues highlighted, then I would be impressed!

Edited to add another link, the x-rays aren't there any more, but if you wanted to request them to show the level of deformity with this pug cross, apparently the author would be more than happy to send you them.

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvet...formities-slumdog-has-his-day-or#.UfeaQI2Tg2J

Found the same article with the x-rays!

http://www.wellsphere.com/pet-healt...ormities-slumdog-has-his-day-in-the-or/833370


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## blossomsuz (Jun 18, 2013)

I own a Puggle!

She is called Daisy and is 5 months old. I rescued her from a family that treated her less than nicely shall we say. 

I love her to bits BUT she is damn hard work!

She is VERY headstrong and nutty compared to my Jack Russell cross Pug - Doug. House training is taking a loooong time (but a lot of that was down to previous owners whom I think hit her for weeing , poor girlie) but we are getting there with lots of positive encouragement. 

She doesn't ever stop and has to be doing/chewing something. We never had a problem with Doug chewing anything he wasn't supposed to but Daisy on the other hand has chewed:

The Wall
Skirting Board
My Sandles
My Trainers
Wires
Carpet
Blankets
Puppy pads

My other half calls her "The Bumbling Idiot" because she bumbles along in Daisy world  

No obvious health problems as of yet, my vet said that she has a slightly undershot jaw but it doesn't seem to stop her from chewing!

She is not too bad at recall but she is only a 1/4 Beagle (I think one of her grandparents was a Beagle), plus we are still training on that one. 

She is a loving little girl and very sweet and I am glad she came to me and not some undeserving oik that would have just bred her as soon as she hit her first season (she will be spayed as soon as old enough), but you should definitely be prepared if considering one. Not all the best traits from both breeds always make the way through. 

So in short she is pig headed, loopy ut:, a lot slower to learn than previous dogs I have had BUT very sweet, loving, comical and a pretty wee thing and I love her lots :001_wub:


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

There is no such breed as a "puggle". If you buy your mixed breed (mutt) from a "breeder" you are supporting back yard breeding and puppy mills.

Either find a legitimate "breeder" of a real dog breed or go to the shelter and adopt a mutt or breed look alike, saving a life and not supporting byb.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Puggles
> 
> Have a look at the info on this blog site, not particularly scientific, but highlights the sort of thing that happens with indiscriminate breeding.
> 
> ...


Yowsers, that's really awful  poor dog. What gets me is people (not you, OP!) don't like to pay out for a health tested pup and don't realise the potential implications down the line.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lorilu said:


> There is no such breed as a "puggle". If you buy your mixed breed (mutt) from a "breeder" you are supporting back yard breeding and puppy mills.
> 
> Either find a legitimate "breeder" of a real dog breed or go to the shelter and adopt a mutt or breed look alike, saving a life and not supporting byb.


How very rude and pompous


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> How very rude and pompous


Judging by your user name, I am not surprised you think so. There's no such breed as a "doodle" either.

People who breed these mutts and take money for them really infuriate me. There are plenty of mixed breeds to be had at the shelter. It's so unethical to make more, on purpose, then sell them as if they were purebred. It's a horrible practice.


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

lorilu said:


> Judging by your user name, I am not surprised you think so. There's no such breed as a "doodle" either.
> 
> People who breed these mutts and take money for them really infuriate me. There are plenty of mixed breeds to be had at the shelter. It's so unethical to make more, on purpose, then sell them as if they were purebred. It's a horrible practice.


I am pretty sure most of us are aware that a doodle, puggle etc etc are not breeds per say.. they are neither mongrels but cross breeds.. and yes there are breeders out there who do all the relevant health tests.


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

lorilu said:


> There is no such breed as a "puggle". If you buy your mixed breed (mutt) from a "breeder" you are supporting back yard breeding and puppy mills.
> 
> Either find a legitimate "breeder" of a real dog breed or go to the shelter and adopt a mutt or breed look alike, saving a life and not supporting byb.


You are so rude!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

button50 said:


> You are so rude!


But Lurilu is right, it would be a mutt an expensive mutt but still a mutt.

There are lots of good breeds out there as it is.


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> But Lurilu is right, it would be a mutt an expensive mutt but still a mutt.
> 
> There are lots of good breeds out there as it is.


Im more annoyed at the "real dog breed part" as opposed to the fake dog breed!!

So a cross is not a good dog breed????


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I totally agree with lorilu, with the addition that the cutesy names drive me nuts and the prices are plain robbery (although if people will pay the extortionate amounts for a 'designer' non health tested cross, then more fool them!) 

However, there are ways and means of phrasing your horror at the idea  and surely better to educate gently rather than alienate someone asking genuine questions. 

Lorilu, join Horse and Hound and go to the dog section. You'd be amongst friends!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

button50 said:


> Im more annoyed at the "real dog breed part" as opposed to the fake dog breed!!
> 
> So a cross is not a good dog breed????


*Whispers* It's not a breed if it's a cross *Runs away screaming*


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> *Whispers* It's not a breed if it's a cross *Runs away screaming*


Everything is a breed of some sort. Because its a cross is it not a cross breed???? Honestly!!


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

lorilu said:


> There is no such breed as a "puggle". If you buy your mixed breed (mutt) from a "breeder" you are supporting back yard breeding and puppy mills.
> 
> Either find a legitimate "breeder" of a real dog breed or go to the shelter and adopt a mutt or breed look alike, saving a life and not supporting byb.


How incredibly rude! we've always had cross breeds and have found they are healthier than most purebreds. we got our lurcher and (gasp) she wasn't health tested, she lived to 15 and had only ever been to the vets to be spayed. our patterlake  (was rescued so no idea if health tested) is 14 1/2 and he runs around like a spring chicken and people are astonished by his age.
Who cares if people put names to them, i happen to find them cute, funny and easier to say. 
some people need to get off their high horses, all dogs are *crossed* they needed to be crossed to make that breed.

to the OP if you find a good breeder who does all the necessary health tests, and you are well researched then i don't see a problem. we haven't met a puggle but have met a pug cross jack russel and its a healthy lovely dog and very playful.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

button50 said:


> Im more annoyed at the "real dog breed part" as opposed to the fake dog breed!!
> 
> So a cross is not a good dog breed????


That's not what I said. I said there is no such breed as puggle. There are pugs and there are beagles, which are breeds of dog, and then there are mixes.

Pugs and beagles are recognized breeds, and may be purebred if you buy one from a "reputable breeder". There is no such breed as a puggle, the dog is a mix of two or more other breeds and/or other mixes.

Puggle is not a "bad breed", it simply isn't a breed at all.

The dogs aren't "bad", what is "bad" is that they are being produced at all, and being sold at very high prices to people who don't know any better.

Other people have commented on the consequences of heath issues, I don't have any knowledge of those things. In my opinion, the people who produce these mixes aren't very ethical to begin with, since they are trying to get money under false pretenses, so the chances that they do all the health or temperament testing and so forth for both breeds before mating is pretty slim. So you are as likely to get the worst of both breeds as to get the best of both.

Meaning, if you are going to take that kind of chance anyway, you might as well go to the shelter and rescue a dog, saving a life, and spending that money on the dog, rather than lining the pockets of the so called "breeder" and making room for them to make even more of these poor dogs.



PawsOnMe said:


> How incredibly rude! we've always had cross breeds and have found they are healthier than most purebreds. we got our lurcher and (gasp) she wasn't health tested, she lived to 15 and had only ever been to the vets to be spayed. our patterlake  (was rescued so no idea if health tested) is 14 1/2 and he runs around like a spring chicken and people are astonished by his age.
> Who cares if people put names to them, i happen to find them cute, funny and easier to say.
> some people need to get off their high horses, all dogs are *crossed* they needed to be crossed to make that breed.


You have missed my point. I did not say there was anything wrong with the dogs themselves. It is the practice I object to.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I recommend giving us a list of things you and your son want in a dog e.g. how long will it's walks be? how much can you afford for feeding? etc... then that will allow us to suggest breeds which may be suitable. If the wrong breed is in the wrong homes then there can be problems. 

There is nothing wrong with buying a cross breed as long as relevant health tests are done (some breeds don't have any though and some breeders don't do them e.g. I could not find a single litter of PLL tested Jack Russell's so ended up buying one from an accidental litter - I don't regret it at ALL. But Jack's are a hardy breed so are less likely to have problems than most other breeds). 

I really hope you find an appropriate breed for your son.


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

lorilu said:


> Either find a legitimate "breeder" of a real dog breed


You did say real dog breed!!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

button50 said:


> Im more annoyed at the "real dog breed part" as opposed to the fake dog breed!!
> 
> So a cross is not a good dog *breed*????


But it's not a known breed as in KC reg. is it.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

button50 said:


> Everything is a breed of some sort. Because its a cross is it not a cross breed???? Honestly!!


Yes, they're either breeds or cross breeds. You could also use type as you might if discussing horses. A cob like mine, for example, is not a breed but a type. There is logic to this, honest!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> There is nothing wrong with buying a cross breed as long as relevant health tests are done (some breeds don't have any though and some breeders don't do them e.g. I could not find a single litter of PLL tested Jack Russell's so ended up buying one from an accidental litter - I don't regret it at ALL. But Jack's are a hardy breed so are less likely to have problems than most other breeds).
> 
> I really hope you find an appropriate breed for your son.


Yes there is, you can not say for sure that two health tested parents are not going to throw up some heath problems in their offspring, SL has already posted information about this regarding Pug/Beagle Crosses..


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Judging by your user name, I am not surprised you think so. There's no such breed as a "doodle" either.
> 
> People who breed these mutts and take money for them really infuriate me. There are plenty of mixed breeds to be had at the shelter. It's so unethical to make more, on purpose, then sell them as if they were purebred. It's a horrible practice.


The user name was chosen to irritate small minded ill-informed individuals like you  Judging by your comments you have no personal experience or actual information whatsoever you simply regurgitate crud you have read on the internet and take it as gospel

Shock horror no such breed as a doodle, OMG was I misled by a cutesy name - grow up

Did I know Dougie was a crossbreed - Yes
Did I specifically want a crossbreed - Yes
Why did I want a crossbreed and not a pedigree - trawl through my posts and find out if you are that interested
Were Dougies parents health tested - Yes  shock horror
How much did I pay - mind your own business

My most recent personal knowledge of a pedigree breeder - work colleague she took on a 7 year old pedigree whippet - bred for years, shows etc etc Too old to breed and as there is no longer any money in whippets has switched to breeding pugs instead. This most excellent breeder said she is really clingy to me so will pine for me - she didn't, I wonder why.

Do I think all pedigree breeders are so callous and totally money orientated, no I don't

The most prolific breed in rescue - Staffies

Maybe you need to get more things going on in your life if all you have to worry about is what people choose to call their dogs and how much they pay, or do some proper research of your own which does not simply involve believing everything you read on the internet.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

button50 said:


> You did say real dog breed!!


It's not a breed, it's a cross breed, ie a cross of two or more breeds.


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> But it's not a known breed as in KC reg. is it.


Pure snobbery! So what if its not KC. Ive always had KC Bearded Collies which were great now i have a cross BREED he is also great!


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Meezey said:


> It's not a breed, it's a cross breed, ie a cross of two or more breeds.


So the word BREED is in there then!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> I totally agree with lorilu, with the addition that the cutesy names drive me nuts and the prices are plain robbery (although if people will pay the extortionate amounts for a 'designer' non health tested cross, then more fool them!)
> 
> However, there are ways and means of phrasing your horror at the idea  and surely better to educate gently rather than alienate someone asking genuine questions.
> 
> Lorilu, join Horse and Hound and go to the dog section. You'd be amongst friends!


What the type of people who can say buy a *real dog *- any dog loving person would run a mile then


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

button50 said:


> So the word BREED is in there then!


Yes as in the parents are breeds, the Pug/Beagle is a cross of two breeds, it in itself is not a breed but a mix of two breeds... Shall we call it a mongrel?


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

lorilu said:


> You have missed my point. I did not say there was anything wrong with the dogs themselves. It is the practice I object to.


I agree that people shouldn't go to byb, but the way you put it wasn't very diplomatic and there are some breeders who do all the correct health tests and are breeding a good healthy crossbreed.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

button50 said:


> Pure snobbery! So what if its not KC. Ive always had KC Bearded Collies which were great now i have a *cross BREED he is also great!*


I never said cross breed (mutt) weren't did I. I've had mutts in the past my self in the past.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

button50 said:


> Pure snobbery! So what if its not KC. Ive always had KC Bearded Collies which were great now i have a cross BREED he is also great!


It is not snobbery it is what it is, recognised breeds are registered with the KC or IKC or AKC fact not snobbery?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> Yes, they're either breeds or cross breeds. You could also use type as you might if discussing horses. A cob like mine, for example, is not a breed but a type. There is logic to this, honest!


Presumably it is still a horse though  or has it now become not a real horse


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

My first dog growing up was a crossbreed/ mongrel/ Heinz 57. Didn't matter one little bit. We have no idea what the dad was. The mother was an Irish wolfhound and therefore huge. Our dog was bichon sized. With curly fur. And a short stubby tail. Loved him just as much as my greyhound a pedigree ex racer. My dog I'm adopting is also a crossbreed no doubt from an accidental litter. I'll still love her just as much. I don't much care if my dogs are pedigree/ proper breeds or Heinz 57 varieties. But they'll always be rescues as I won't buy a puppy from a byb and not even from a proper breeder as there's so many dogs already needing homes.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

button50 said:


> You did say real dog breed!!


Yes as I said a pug and a beagle are both "real" breeds. A "puggle" is not a breed, it is a made up word, that someone made up to make lots of money selling mixed breed dogs. 

In my opinion there are already so many unwanted dogs in the world, it is wrong for people to make more mixed breed dogs, give them silly combination names that people think are real, and doubly wrong to sell them for profit. Breeding should be done for the betterment and continuation of a pure breed only, not for money or because the word puggle and doodle are cute words and people pay big bucks for them.

Most of these "designer dogs" are _bred and raised_ in deplorable conditions (before they are sold).


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> What the type of people who can say buy a *real dog *- any dog loving person would run a mile then


No one said anything about the dog being a "real dog". What has been said is that "puggle" is not a real dog *breed*. As it is not.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Yes as I said a pug and a beagle are both "real" breeds. A "puggle" is not a breed, it is a made up word, that someone made up to make lots of money selling mixed breed dogs.
> 
> In my opinion there are already so many unwanted dogs in the world, it is wrong for people to make more mixed breed dogs, and doubly wrong to sell them for profit. Breeding should be done for the betterment and continuation of a pure breed only, not for money or because the word puggle and doodle are cute words and people pay big bucks for them.
> 
> Most of these "designer dogs" are kept in really deplorable conditions.


Proof for your statements?

Your breeders who have done it for betterment of the pure breeds only - do they give them away?

Your explanation for some pedigrees that have dreadful health issues due this betterment to date?

How dare you say my dog is kept in deplorable conditions - I bet he is happier, better cared for, better fed, better treated than yours. Do I have any proof, of course not but you can spout rubbish therefore so can I.

What proper breed of dog do you have?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> A brachycephalic breed crossed with a hunting type? IMO, a very unfortunate crossbreed. What's wrong with a beagle, for example? Sorry to be harsh, but I think this cross, of all the designer crosses, is a very poor idea. I wouldn't advocate any puppy unless the parents were health tested for all issues relating to the two different breeds.
> 
> If your son is underage, he should be guided by you. The puppy can't be labelled with either temperament and may be fab or not, all depends on the individual dog. I've got two brothers, hugely different, brought up the same.


I don't like 'designer' crosses, full stop. I'm sure that there are some healthy and well-considered ones (the labradoodle - the cross which started off the whole sorry saga is one, if the parents are chosen correctly), but there are so many people jumping on the very lucrative 'designer' bandwagon, and putting any two dogs together, giving the resulting puppies a daft name and selling them as 'unique' and 'highly-sought after' and charging big bucks for them.

Personally, if I wanted a non-rescue dog/puppy, I would research breeds (puggles are a cross-breed) to see what would suit my family situation, and go to a recommended breeder. You then have an idea of what to expect in the way of size, grooming requirements, exercise needs and temperament, and hopefully a good breeder will have done everything they can to reduce the chances of health problems. Unfortunately breeders of designer dogs rarely look at these issues.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

PawsOnMe said:


> How incredibly rude! we've always had cross breeds and have found they are healthier than most purebreds. we got our lurcher and (gasp) she wasn't health tested, she lived to 15 and had only ever been to the vets to be spayed. our patterlake  (was rescued so no idea if health tested) is 14 1/2 and he runs around like a spring chicken and people are astonished by his age.
> Who cares if people put names to them, i happen to find them cute, funny and easier to say.
> some people need to get off their high horses, all dogs are *crossed* they needed to be crossed to make that breed.
> 
> to the OP if you find a good breeder who does all the necessary health tests, and you are well researched then i don't see a problem. we haven't met a puggle but have met a pug cross jack russel and its a healthy lovely dog and very playful.


If you've always had cross breeds, how do you know they're healthier than than most pure breds? Not trying to be controversial, but that statement just doesn't stack up.

There are recent studies that show cross bred dogs, and mongrels, are prone to the same genetic defects, and indeed develop them just as frequently as pedigree dogs do. Let's face it, dogs are dogs, whether they're pedigree or not, but the fact is, that if you have a registered pedigree, you can trace ancestry (ok, some will argue that not all breeders are honest, and I'd agree, they're not, but more info than something bought out of the small ads generally speaking) and see if the parents have been health tested for appropriate conditions.

Pugs and beagles both have similar health issues, the cross of these two breeds does not necessarily give a healthier version of a cute pug type dog, it can end up with severe deformities. This alone to me says leave well alone.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Born to Boogie said:


> Yes, yes, yes
> Tibetan Spaniels are lovely little dogs


They are, but much bigger grooming requirements.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lostbear said:


> I don't like 'designer' crosses, full stop. I'm sure that there are some healthy and well-considered ones (the labradoodle - the cross which started off the whole sorry saga is one, if the parents are chosen correctly), but there are so many people jumping on the very lucrative 'designer' bandwagon, and putting any two dogs together, giving the resulting puppies a daft name and selling them as 'unique' and 'highly-sought after' and charging big bucks for them.
> 
> Personally, if I wanted a non-rescue dog/puppy, I would research breeds (puggles are a cross-breed) to see what would suit my family situation, and go to a recommended breeder. You then have an idea of what to expect in the way of size, grooming requirements, exercise needs and temperament, and hopefully a good breeder will have done everything they can to reduce the chances of health problems. Unfortunately breeders of designer dogs rarely look at these issues.


There you go then you don't like them so you are hardly likely to have researched the breeding/breeders are you. If you have rescue dogs then for the majority you will have no idea of their breeding/background/likely tempremant so its just rhetoric


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Rescues are over run with both pure and mixed breeds.

Both purebreeds and x breeds have bad and ethical breeders, pures are easier to find but it's not impossible. 

Only purebreeds have a purpose? not true, quite often in hunting lurchers are created by mixing sighthounds to collies and terriers to get better dogs than what they can get from just a greyhound. Agility folk often breed border collies to jack russels or other smaller breeds to get a smaller or faster & more agile dog. 

At the end of the day who the hell cares really? what business is it if someone gets a dog and instead of saying pug x beagle, they say puggle. Why does it matter what they pay for them? that's their choice. All we can ask is the breeder does what's right by ensuring good temperament, health testing and making sure they are going to homes where they are loved wether it be a 155 generation Pomeranian with champion bloodlines to home bred puggle/pug x beagle. 

There's much more things to be concerning about then someone calling a dog a "silly" name 

If you don't like that people breed dogs, rescue but I myself have no issues and may even consider a "fancy" mixed breed just because I can


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Somebody told me that labradoodles are now a recognized breed with the kennel club.is this true?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> Somebody told me that labradoodles are now a recognized breed with the kennel club.is this true?


No, they're not, but this is exactly the sort of thing I've highlighted on another thread. Labradoodles don't breed to type, the only thing they're included on is the BVA list for information on hip scores and other health test results. They may make a lovely pet, and there are those who health test, and even a couple of people who've trained Labradoodles to work, but they can be anything between a Labrador and a poodle, so definitely not a pedigree breed.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> Somebody told me that labradoodles are now a recognized breed with the kennel club.is this true?


No - and most owners/breeders would not want that to happen any way


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

button50 said:


> Everything is a breed of some sort. Because its a cross is it not a cross breed???? Honestly!!


A 'breed" is so-called because it breeds true to type ie if you breed two of them together you can be pretty damn sure what the puppies will be like. This can't be said of cross-breeds, because there are at least two types of dog in there, and genetics is a phenomenally complex thing unless you are dealing with peas.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No the KC doesn't recognise any of the designer breeds because they don't breed to type not even the multi generation ones. If someone did put in the time and effort to breed a labradoodle line that bred to type and was purebred then they could be recognised but that takes a lot of time and effort.

The mere suggestion of this is enough to give some kc people heart attacks


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lostbear said:


> A 'breed" is so-called because it breeds try to type ie if you breed two of them together you can be pretty damn sue what the puppies will be like. This can't be said of cross-breeds, because there are at least two types of dog in there, and genetics is a phenomenally complex thing unless you are dealing with peas.


I think I'm right in saying there's no chance that peas will ever be a KC recognised breed


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Pedigree, KC registered......are just papers affiliated with a club for dogs......nothing to stop somebody else setting up their own clubs with similar guidelines, then KC would just become 1 multi million pound business along with the rest, wouldn't it?

Plenty so called good breeders are less than honest with paperwork anyway.

A dog breeder friend of mine...who breeds good dogs but breeds for money said to me, "If people didn't make money from breeding dogs, they would stop breeding them."

really, people being nasty and offensive to each other over differing viewpoints is in my mind equivalent to road rage in a chat room....totally unnecessary.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> Pedigree, KC registered......are just papers affiliated with a club for dogs......nothing to stop somebody else setting up their own clubs with similar guidelines, then KC would just become 1 multi million pound business along with the rest, wouldn't it?
> 
> Plenty so called good breeders are less than honest with paperwork anyway.
> 
> ...


Wow, I certainly don't plan to ever make any money from breeding pedigree dogs. But I don't plan to stop either, I have a rather philanthropic view, my job supports my activities with my dogs, not the other way round.

I hate that this sort of thread turns into us vs them sort of thing. Everyone's against bad breeding, full stop.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Most people have nothing against purebreds/crossbreeds/mongrels whatever they object to bad breeders and there are as many bad breeders breeding purebreds as there are breeding designer mixes.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> Pedigree, KC registered......are just papers affiliated with a club for dogs......nothing to stop somebody else setting up their own clubs with similar guidelines, then KC would just become 1 multi million pound business along with the rest, wouldn't it?
> 
> Plenty so called good breeders are less than honest with paperwork anyway.
> 
> ...


Exactly!

Spiders, snakes, rodents make me shudder (sorry folks) but I would not go on any of those threads and make nasty comments, whats the point.

If you don't like something why spend the time and effort to sniff out threads just to post abuse and regurgitated info. Certain people on this thread if they really had to say anything at all may as well have restricted themselves to saying I do not like your dog in my view it should not exist


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

personal preference...I would do my research, get in touch with kennel club and find a few breeders near to my home. 

I would always go for a pedigree then I know roughly what characteristics I am likely to end up with.

I had to travel 400 miles for the bullmastiff. 200 miles for the saluki X

There is a BYB locally and he crosses any breed to a poodle or Chihuahua then brags that generally people can't tell the difference anyway.

Who would know the difference between a bichon and a Lhasa anyway? and he sells most of the pups with paperwork.


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you've always had cross breeds, how do you know they're healthier than than most pure breds? Not trying to be controversial, but that statement just doesn't stack up.
> 
> There are recent studies that show cross bred dogs, and mongrels, are prone to the same genetic defects, and indeed develop them just as frequently as pedigree dogs do. Let's face it, dogs are dogs, whether they're pedigree or not, but the fact is, that if you have a registered pedigree, you can trace ancestry (ok, some will argue that not all breeders are honest, and I'd agree, they're not, but more info than something bought out of the small ads generally speaking) and see if the parents have been health tested for appropriate conditions.
> 
> Pugs and beagles both have similar health issues, the cross of these two breeds does not necessarily give a healthier version of a cute pug type dog, it can end up with severe deformities. This alone to me says leave well alone.


My parents (not in my lifetime), friends and family have had pure breeds, i'm not saying that purebreds are unhealthy i'm just saying that a cross breed can be just as healthy as a purebred and some pure breeds of dogs have really bad health problems and shouldn't really be bred as they are and its not always the worst thing to cross a dog when done right. i do think that if you are going to cross two breeds than a short nosed breed crossed with a highly scent driven breed isn't the best thing to do, there are much better crosses out there.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

polishrose said:


> My first dog growing up was a crossbreed/ mongrel/ Heinz 57. Didn't matter one little bit. We have no idea what the dad was. The mother was an Irish wolfhound and therefore huge. Our dog was bichon sized. With curly fur. And a short stubby tail. Loved him just as much as my greyhound a pedigree ex racer. My dog I'm adopting is also a crossbreed no doubt from an accidental litter. I'll still love her just as much. I don't much care if my dogs are pedigree/ proper breeds or Heinz 57 varieties. But they'll always be rescues as I won't buy a puppy from a byb and not even from a proper breeder as there's so many dogs already needing homes.


The point is no one is saying that pedigrees are better than cross breeds as a pet, but people need to stop with the naming them as a "breed" they are a cross and with that, their are also certain risks, and like unscrupulous breeders in the pedigree world there are also those if not more in the cross breed world. People see crosses as a cash cow, they mix breeds with just money in mind in most cases, cross breeds were never like this they were free or a few quid.... Yes there are bad breed in pedigrees also, it's easier through word of mouth and recommendations to find a good ethical breeder of pedigree dogs if you take the time and research it.. People don't even know what issues they could be breeding in to these crosses at all. They might health test their breeds but they will have no idea of what the outcome of this breeding with be, health or temp wise.

It's not snobbery at all, certainly in my case, I would rather have a chance of understanding what health issue my dog could have, what temp issues, what kind of temp that I can expect and what maybe need to do it make my dog the best it can be... If your crossing breeds you don't know...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The only people throwing a fit about them being named as a breed are the people complaining about it most crossbreed owners are well aware they're crosses, some are idiots and believed the breeder when they said they were totally a recognised breed but they're the minority.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> Proof for your statements?
> 
> Your breeders who have done it for betterment of the pure breeds only - do they give them away?
> 
> ...


No-one said that your dog was kept in a deplorable condition. What I understood lorilu to mean was that the puppies were very often bred and raised in deplorable conditions - ie either puppy farms or uncaring BYBs - and that is true.

Yes - there are breeders of cross-breeds who do health test their dogs - but a glance at the pet websites will be enough to show that they are few and far between. AND - No- you cannot _guarantee_ a healthy puppy in any circumstances - but you can improve the chances.

I can't see the point in many of these crosses, myself, other than to line someone's pockets. Labradoodles were originally bred for a purpose - to provide service dogs for people who had allergies. The name and the cross took off, and now it seems everyone is breeding dogs randomly and calling them jugs, cocker-poos, poo-shids, jackahuahuas etc. There is little or no thought going into what is the likely result of these crosses, in terms of health and temperament, for the dogs.

It's a bandwagon that BYBs and puppy farmers have jumped on - the puppies are no cheaper than pedigrees in a lot of instances, and sometimes more expensive. I don't like this practice at all. It's even harder to regulate than pedigree dog breeding.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

PawsOnMe said:


> My parents (not in my lifetime), friends and family have had pure breeds, i'm not saying that purebreds are unhealthy i'm just saying that a cross breed can be just as healthy as a purebred and some pure breeds of dogs have really bad health problems and shouldn't really be bred as they are and its not always the worst thing to cross a dog when done right. i do think that if you are going to cross two breeds than a short nosed breed crossed with a highly scent driven breed isn't the best thing to do, there are much better crosses out there.


Exactly, dogs are dogs, whether they're kc pedigrees or not, but there's no way you can say that cross breeds or mongrels are healthier, there isn't enough evidence to back this up, but there is recent evidence emerging to say that the health issues many thought were limited to kc pedigrees, are part of the enormous gene pool of dogs overall, not limited at all to pedigree breeds. Which makes sense.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I would try to avoid a BYB.......but if you are travelling several miles to look at a puppy, you may not often have any idea what sort of person you are dealing with.

Price is nothing to go off either, the most expensive doesn't mean the best looked after and reared.

we travelled 400 miles for the bully and my husband said nothing all the way there cos he knew that if we got to our destination and I was not happy with what met us, I would come home minus a pup.She turned out far better than I had hoped for anyway.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> personal preference...I would do my research, get in touch with kennel club and find a few breeders near to my home.
> 
> I would always go for a pedigree then I know roughly what characteristics I am likely to end up with.
> 
> ...


Most dog people...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> I would try to avoid a BYB.......but if you are travelling several miles to look at a puppy, you may not often have any idea what sort of person you are dealing with.
> 
> Price is nothing to go off either, the most expensive doesn't mean the best looked after and reared.
> 
> we travelled 400 miles for the bully and my husband said nothing all the way there cos he knew that if we got to our destination and I was not happy with what met us, I would come home minus a pup.She turned out far better than I had hoped for anyway.


That's why you go meet the breeder BEFORE there are any puppies born so you know what conditions they'll be raised in and you're not swayed by cute puppies in horrible conditions.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> There you go then you don't like them so *you are hardly likely to have researched the breeding/breeders are you*. If you have rescue dogs then for the majority you will have no idea of their breeding/background/likely tempremant so its just rhetoric


I've researched it enough to know that the original breeder of labradoodles, Wally Conron regrets what he did.

Whose bright idea was that? | Science | The Guardian

Please don't assume that because I don't like the idea of 'designer breeds' that i know nothing at all about them. I am not an expert, nor would I pretend to be, but I do know that bring together two brachycephalic dogs to form a 'frug' is probably not a good idea; to cross two breeds that can have skeletal problems to produce a 'wuggle' is probably not a good idea, and indeed, to give greedy people the green light to put any two breeds together regardless of suitability is definately not a good idea.

I looked into labradoodles some time ago when we were cosidering another dog. I'd come across a few of them and thought that they were very beautiful dogs with an amazing smile, but as both breeds involved can be prone to hip dysplasia and PRA, decided against getting one. All breeds have their problems, but if you are going to cross two breeds, would it not be better to avoid bringing together two with the same inherent weakness?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think I'm right in saying there's no chance that peas will ever be a KC recognised breed


Dammit! I'm on the verge of developing a 'teacup' 'designer' variety!

Ah well, back to the drawing board . . . .


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

No, most dog people can't tell the difference.

and what constitutes dog people or most dog people anyway?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Again it comes down to the good breeder thing an ethical breeder wouldn't mix two breeds with similar health problems such as french bulldog/pug, that's a frug right? Some of the crosses are cruel the bizarrely popular ori-pei (shar pei/pug) for example but so are some of the purebreeds pekingese for example.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> But it's not a known breed as in KC reg. is it.


Neither are ambulls or jack russels. Neither are recognised by the KC but they are still dog breeds


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lostbear said:


> Dammit! I'm on the verge of developing a 'teacup' 'designer' variety!
> 
> Ah well, back to the drawing board . . . .


Just don't start crossing peas and beans, otherwise you'll get yourself into a whole heap of trouble!!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

a frug and a wuggle???lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

pogo said:


> Neither are ambulls or jack russels. Neither are recognised by the KC but they are still dog breeds


One of the jack russel types is a recognised KC breed, but the others are bred to type, so they are breed types, not pedigree breeds. Obviously you know this, but worth stating the obvious for others reading.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> No, most dog people can't tell the difference.
> 
> and what constitutes dog people or most dog people anyway?


Most dog people who know anything about dogs and breeds can tell the difference between these two breeds. I refuse to believe that most dog people cannot tell the difference. They have distinctly different coat types for a start.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

this can go on and on......good breeders???

I have 2 dakkies.....stumpy little legs and long backs.The breed is prone to back problems.cos of the stumpy little legs and long backs......but good breeders still breed them. and, if breeders didn't breed them, I would have missed out so much on my 2 little dogs.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> One of the jack russel types is a recognised KC breed, but the others are bred to type, so they are breed types, not pedigree breeds. Obviously you know this, but worth stating the obvious for others reading.


Yer i knew but CBA to write much haha!


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just don't start crossing peas and beans, otherwise you'll get yourself into a whole heap of trouble!!


How about peas and carrots?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Spiders, snakes, rodents make me shudder (sorry folks) but I would not go on any of those threads and make nasty comments, whats the point.
> 
> If you don't like something why spend the time and effort to sniff out threads just to post abuse and regurgitated info. Certain people on this thread if they really had to say anything at all may as well have restricted themselves to saying I do not like your dog in my view it should not exist


You highlighted a quote from a previous post which lamented that this has tuned into people being rude to each other - and agreed with that poster, and yet you have been one of the worst, if not the worst offender.

You appear to be deliberately seeking to misunderstand and twist the words of other forumites. No-one, as far as I am aware, has said that they do not like your dog and it shouldn't exist. Many people have said that they are concerned about bad breeding. People have expressed their own opinions, and you have gone off the deep end. You are doing the very thing that you accuse others of.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> this can go on and on......good breeders???
> 
> I have 2 dakkies.....stumpy little legs and long backs.The breed is prone to back problems.cos of the stumpy little legs and long backs......but good breeders still breed them. and, if breeders didn't breed them, I would have missed out so much on my 2 little dogs.


But there are still people who breed teckels, not necessarily kc registered, that don't suffer from back problems. I think you need to differentiate between problems that arrive from showing, or just because a pedigree breed is bred to type??


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> this can go on and on......good breeders???
> 
> I have 2 dakkies.....stumpy little legs and long backs.The breed is prone to back problems.cos of the stumpy little legs and long backs......but good breeders still breed them. and, if breeders didn't breed them, I would have missed out so much on my 2 little dogs.


haven't they always been pretty short legged and long backed?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Even the working dachshunds have long back and short legs although not to the extreme of some of the show dogs. It helps them work


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lostbear said:


> I've researched it enough to know that the original breeder of labradoodles, Wally Conron regrets what he did.
> 
> Whose bright idea was that? | Science | The Guardian
> 
> ...


That's my point though you have researched - it wasn't you I quoted . Personally no I would not have a pug crossed with a beagle, I am bright enough to know you may end up with a dog with a squashed face that runs off, I also know that two pedigrees both with health issues are highly likely to produce offspring with a mix of those health issues.

I don't personally don't refer to Dougie as a Doodle just a golden retriever cross but so what I knew what I was buying, I researched and had my reasons


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

teckels.......are they the wire haired dakkies?I don't breed and I don't show.I joined the site cos I have a massive problem with 1 of my cats and I was looking for information.

The elder dakkie was bred by a woman who wanted a litter from her bitch so she could keep a pup cos she loved her own dog. She went to a reputable stud and got plenty help and I don't think there were any more litters. That pup is now 13 and has had a very interesting happy life.

My first dakkie came from a show breeder about 18 years ago. The pup was very small but I had no idea about size at the time but the breeder was highly recommended to me. the pups were born in the house, the place was spotless and great care was given to the dogs and the pups and the rearing etc. that pup died aged 2 years old from genetic heart problems. She was sick one afternoon, took her to the vet who gave her anti biotics for a chest infection and she died of heart failure in the night. That breeder is still breeding the same lines even though he knows what happened and the problem is hereditary..but he was highly recommended.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

button50 said:


> Pure snobbery! So what if its not KC. Ive always had KC Bearded Collies which were great now i have a cross BREED he is also great!


Not snobbery, it's differentiation: breed or cross breed. All dogs are great, of course they are. It's the breeders and sometimes owners who screw them up!



button50 said:


> So the word BREED is in there then!


_Cross_ breed. Don't be obtuse 



DoodlesRule said:


> What the type of people who can say buy a *real dog *- any dog loving person would run a mile then


Not what was meant, as I'm sure you know. Many of the members work in rescue and see the health issues from overbred designer crosses (and yes, I know not all of them have issues!)

I fail to see why labradoodle owners wouldn't want them registered  The benefits outweigh the disadvantages and you'd be able to trace and remove any health issues.



DoodlesRule said:


> Presumably it is still a horse though  or has it now become not a real horse


No, he's a _cob_, often derided by non cob owners as being common and shock, horror, _overbred_! He's a type and when buying a bridle, the come in horse, cob, pony size. 



DoodlesRule said:


> How dare you say my dog is kept in deplorable conditions


You know she didn't say that 



lostbear said:


> I don't like 'designer' crosses, full stop. I'm sure that there are some healthy and well-considered ones (the labradoodle - the cross which started off the whole sorry saga is one, if the parents are chosen correctly), but there are so many people jumping on the very lucrative 'designer' bandwagon, and putting any two dogs together, giving the resulting puppies a daft name and selling them as 'unique' and 'highly-sought after' and charging big bucks for them.


Like you said, the original labradoodles breeder thoroughly regrets starting this trend and was it only 1 of his original litter of 13 were non allergy causing? It angers me that unscrupulous breeders claim their pups are non shedding before they're even Ron: this cannot be known til they're a few months old.



lostbear said:


> genetics is a phenomenally complex thing unless you are dealing with peas.


Or fruit flies  A mix of the two would be interesting, think Terry Pratchett already discussed this. 

If you're gonna do tea cup peas, I want in! This kind of size? Giant tea cup size peas?!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

See now this stuff I have no issue with :

About Labradoodles

Despite the impression encouraged in the popular press, no reputable breeder would seek to popularise their labradoodles under the banner of "designer dogs". The labradoodle is a well-established and fairly well understood cross, bred for practical reasons as a biddable, working dog with the temperament and coat characteristics to be suited to all kinds of applications and environments. We would welcome your comments on the media coverage in our forum.

Labradoodles are a popular crossbreed, resulting from the mating of either a labrador and a poodle (in either combination of male/female) or of two labradoodles or of a labradoodle and one of the root breeds (labrador or poodle). In the United Kingdom, in common with a number of other established and popular crossbreeds, they are not recognised by the Kennel Club nor regulated in any way. This situation is unlikely to change and there are many in the labradoodle community who are glad of it, believing that the status quo is in the best interests of maintaining a diverse and healthy bloodline.

The lack of regulation is also perhaps a two-edged sword when it comes to keeping at bay an increase in unscrupulous breeders exploiting the "designer dog" popularity of labradoodles which serves only to inflate prices beyond what is reasonable and will also lead to very unhappy owners and dogs alike.

The UKLA seeks to lend its voice to help educate dog lovers everywhere to make the most of this attractive and practical cross-breed and to develop knowledge and expertise in producing healthy, intelligent, trainable dogs whether they are for a working environment (as gundogs or assistance dogs), as family pets or in a caring/support role.

Breeders are able to register their details and information about upcoming litters on the site free of charge and this information is made available to anyone seeking a Labradoodle.

For further information on Labradoodles, feel free to email us at [email protected].


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> teckels.......are they the wire haired dakkies?I don't breed and I don't show.I joined the site cos I have a massive problem with 1 of my cats and I was looking for information.


Teckels are the dachshunds still bred and worked as badger dogs. They tend to have longer legs and shorter backs than the show lines. They come in all 3 coats and sizes.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> a frug and a wuggle???lol


French bulldogs X pugs and westies X beagles - the former are VERY popular at the moment - I've only seen one litter of the latter.

Oh, and how about cresty la-las? Chinese crested X llhasa apso

I sometimes wonder if there's a competition to find the most inappropriate combination.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just don't start crossing peas and beans, otherwise you'll get yourself into a whole heap of trouble!!


Could be an explosive combination, but there might be a big stink about it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> teckels.......are they the wire haired dakkies?I don't breed and I don't show.I joined the site cos I have a massive problem with 1 of my cats and I was looking for information.
> 
> The elder dakkie was bred by a woman who wanted a litter from her bitch so she could keep a pup cos she loved her own dog. She went to a reputable stud and got plenty help and I don't think there were any more litters. That pup is now 13 and has had a very interesting happy life.
> 
> My first dakkie came from a show breeder about 18 years ago. The pup was very small but I had no idea about size at the time but the breeder was highly recommended to me. the pups were born in the house, the place was spotless and great care was given to the dogs and the pups and the rearing etc. that pup died aged 2 years old from genetic heart problems. She was sick one afternoon, took her to the vet who gave her anti biotics for a chest infection and she died of heart failure in the night. That breeder is still breeding the same lines even though he knows what happened and the problem is hereditary..but he was highly recommended.


Teckels are the working *breed type* of daschunds, not always KC registered, some are, the ones I've seen are wire haired rather than smooth coated. I'm afraid the show daschunds I've seen, whilst they may be lovely, are not exactly what I'd imagine the working version to be. I wouldn't imagine any of them going down a hole, let alone going down a hole to face a badger, not that they would in any case these days, but hopefully get my drift.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> That's my point though you have researched - it wasn't you I quoted . Personally no I would not have a pug crossed with a beagle, I am bright enough to know you may end up with a dog with a squashed face that runs off, I also know that two pedigrees both with health issues are highly likely to produce offspring with a mix of those health issues.
> 
> I don't personally don't refer to Dougie as a Doodle just a golden retriever cross but so what I* knew what I was buying, I researched and had my reasons*


And that's fair enough - you know what to expect from your dog.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lostbear said:


> You highlighted a quote from a previous post which lamented that this has tuned into people being rude to each other - and agreed with that poster, and yet you have been one of the worst, if not the worst offender.
> 
> You appear to be deliberately seeking to misunderstand and twist the words of other forumites. No-one, as far as I am aware, has said that they do not like your dog and it shouldn't exist. Many people have said that they are concerned about bad breeding. People have expressed their own opinions, and you have gone off the deep end. You are doing the very thing that you accuse others of.


really - read back the poster I quoted. Sleeping Lion always clearly states nothing against the dogs just bad breeding and even acknowledges that some breeders of crosses health test etc etc And the poster you are supporting said "most of these designer dogs are kept in deplorable conditions" - they did not say bred they said kept

I dislike bigotry and people spouting things as fact when they are merely quoting things they believe to be true because they read it on a forum with no real facts to back it up. I would equally dispute anyone saying all pedigrees are inbred, bred for money, all unhealthy


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> See now this stuff I have no issue with :
> 
> 1. coat characteristics to be suited to all kinds of applications and environments.
> 
> ...


1. I take massive issue with this! The coat, as already mentioned, cannot be determined until the pups are a bit older and the original breeder had very few non shedding in his first litter. Crossing with a poodle does not automatically = non-shedding. Sick and tired of saying this!

2. Not very diverse when there are tons being bred and how on earth can the 'diverse' claim be made when a breeder has zero way of tracing bloodlines and could well be mating brother/sister and creating an horrifically high breeding co-efficient. For all the issues in the KC, at least you can (mostly) check that you're to breeding close family member to family member.

3. Says who? Are they all health tested? No! Are they all great temperaments? No! They're not regulated so the buyer is clueless re trainability and health and intelligence. My two littermates are wildly different, one easily trained and one a little stubborn swine. How can they claim the whole lot are trainable?! Hilarious! The worst ill-tempered dog I've ever met was a Labrador.

Utter rubbish being spouted like this only serves to propagate the hype about cross breeds. All of their claims can be roundly refuted, I'm gobsmacked that they make such claims!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> really - read back the poster I quoted. Sleeping Lion always clearly states nothing against the dogs just bad breeding and even acknowledges that some breeders of crosses health test etc etc And the poster you are supporting said "most of these designer dogs are kept in deplorable conditions" - they did not say bred they said kept
> 
> I dislike bigotry and people spouting things as fact when they are merely quoting things they believe to be true because they read it on a forum with no real facts to back it up. *I would equally dispute anyone saying all pedigrees are inbred, bred for money, all unhealthy*


I agree with you here - there are unethical breeders of pedigree dogs too.

(Just think - this whole thing started with an innocent query about the suitability of the humble puggle as the pet for a young boy - and now look at us!

All I can say is - it's lucky we don't keep guns in the house . . . )


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I like the look of Beagles very much but all I've researched on them tells me that they can be hard work. 

I'd recommend doing as others have suggested and narrow down exactly how much time you have to exercise, to train, to groom and what size dog you want etc. 

Get a good 'dog breeds' book. Narrow down the list of dog breeds then when you've got a 'shortlist' have a look at the Breed Club website and take it from there.

I actually found Youtube helpful for seeing how a dog moves and barks etc - silly though that may seem.....  xx

If you really, really want a puppy then bear in mind just how much work a puppy is too lol. 

Alternatively; have a look round some local rescues / rescue websites. A good rescue would be able to match you up to a suitable dog. I have two rescue dogs - one is a Rough Collie who we adopted at 7 1/2 years old. The other is a 9 month old Pomeranian cross who we adopted at 9 weeks old. Just to illustrate the different types and ages you can find in rescue lol.

I was going to have a Pedigree myself though - I found an excellent breeder who health tests and who is just really nice too. I was going to have a Papillon puppy - a small dog that is very intelligent and very active. Possibly one to add to your shortlist. 

But then Teddy (Pomeranian cross) turned up in rescue and so we adopted him instead of having the Papillon. Which the breeder was absolutely fine about.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe its time to call a truce and concentrates on the OPs actual questions. The child has aspergers - I don't know much about that condition but from other posters comments he has fixed on wanting a pug cross beagle.

there has been sufficient comment to point out the pitfalls so help the OP to find a reputable breeder


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

I wish I could come up with a "cute" name for Craven.

Every walk I get asked by at least 1 person what he is,my reply is He's a cross between an english and Welsh Foxhound,they usually still look confused so I then say The Welsh foxhounds are hairy.

On another note my parents always had KC reg pedigree dogs,8 in total,and they were not all as healthy or the correct temperament as they could have been.

Me,I've had 3 crosses or mongrels and touch wood none of them have had any health/temperament issues.

Personally I wouldn't buy a cross breed or a mongrel from a breeder,but I'm quite happy to pick up the pieces from the ones that have been let down by their original owners.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

lorilu said:


> Most of these "designer dogs" are _bred and raised_ in deplorable conditions (before they are sold).





DoodlesRule said:


> And the poster you are supporting said "most of these designer dogs are kept in deplorable conditions- they did not say bred they said kept


Her post is above. 

And you are twisting what people say: I didn't mention the HHO members going on about 'real' dogs, only real _breeds_. Big difference. I can pick and choose what I quote to suit my side of things, too. 



DoodlesRule said:


> Maybe its time to call a truce and concentrates on the OPs actual questions. The child has aspergers - I don't know much about that condition but from other posters comments he has fixed on wanting a pug cross beagle.
> 
> there has been sufficient comment to point out the pitfalls so help the OP to find a reputable breeder


Gonna be tricky with puggles.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> 1. I take massive issue with this! The coat, as already mentioned, cannot be determined until the pups are a bit older and the original breeder had very few non shedding in his first litter. Crossing with a poodle does not automatically = non-shedding. Sick and tired of saying this!
> 
> Where does it say anything about non shedding?
> 
> ...


Again have you read the site at all?


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

cravensmum said:


> I wish I could come up with a "cute" name for Craven.
> 
> Every walk I get asked by at least 1 person what he is,my reply is He's a cross between an english and Welsh Foxhound,


Maybe a Wenglish Foxhound??


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> Her post is above.
> 
> And you are twisting what people say: I didn't mention the HHO members going on about 'real' dogs, only real _breeds_. Big difference. I can pick and choose what I quote to suit my side of things, too.
> 
> Gonna be tricky with puggles.


and if you go back to that post bottom left corner "edited to clarify statement" it originally said most of these designer breed are *kept* in deplorable conditions.

If I posted that most springers are kept in deplorable conditions you would think ah must mean bred so that's ok? dougie was neither bred nor is kept in deplorable conditions

I don't actually know whether it will be tricky or not with pug X beagle as I haven't reasearched, long haired dogs are more my thing


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Again have you read the site at all?


Yup, thanks, I read every word you quoted 

The alleged non shedding coat is advertised even before pups are born or when they're being advertised. It's not always true, is it?

I'm afraid the family trees is a nonsense because it's not obligatory and not many breeders are going to bother: why should they?

The same goes for the Code of practise: there are guidelines and please don't think I'm being awkward, but there is no way on this earth that the 'average' breeder of doodles adheres to those. Just look at the part about KC registered dogs. How many KC (assured) breeders do you honestly think breed doodles from their lab or poodle?! Seriously?! They've taken the KC rules and made out they're using them but there's absolutely NO regulation so why should any breeder follow them? It eats into profit for those breeders who are simply making money (I'm sure not all breed for cash alone)


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Again have you read the site at all?


The requirements you have posted are an ideal. Not all breeders will adhere to them, sadly.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

button50 said:


> Maybe a Wenglish Foxhound??


I like it!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> and if you go back to that post bottom left corner "edited to clarify statement" it originally said most of these designer breed are *kept* in deplorable conditions.
> 
> If I posted that most springers are kept in deplorable conditions you would think ah must mean bred so that's ok? dougie was neither bred nor is kept in deplorable conditions


Not my recollection, she still said bred.

My springers are kept in appalling conditions, look at the sad faces


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Yup, thanks, I read every word you quoted
> 
> The alleged non shedding coat is advertised even before pups are born or when they're being advertised. It's not always true, is it?
> 
> ...


Nothing on there states the dogs on non shedding?

Hold on, there are 1000's upon 1000's of breeders of dogs out there who don't do anything to regulate their breeding at all. This club has been put together to stop byb and designer breeds.

Do you honestly think all KC accredited breeders are "ethical"? Really? There are plenty of people who will registered their labs and Poodles with the KC and yes cross breed from them. I have NO issue with people trying to do the right thing by dogs, and if this group is trying to regulate the breeding of Labradoodles then bloody good for them and good for the dogs, and least then people hell bent on getting a cross have some protection as do the dogs

Not every breed wants to be part of the KC...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lostbear said:


> The requirements you have posted are an ideal. Not all breeders will adhere to them, sadly.


And neither do all KC breeders 

I'd rather people did something rather than nothing at all to protect the welfare of the dogs..


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lostbear said:


> The requirements you have posted are an ideal. Not all breeders will adhere to them, sadly.


And all the teacup chihuahua/pomeranian/yorkie whatever breeders stick to their club's rules? There are more unethical breeders than good, these guys are trying to do what the breed clubs for purebreds do try to regulate and make breeding better. But of course most breeders aren't going to listen whatever they're breeding.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Nothing on there states the dogs on non shedding?
> 
> Hold on, there are 1000's upon 1000's of breeders of dogs out there who don't do anything to regulate their breeding at all. This club has been put together to stop byb and designer breeds.
> 
> ...


'coat characteristics to be suited to all kinds of applications and environments' is what it says. Well, it's not, is it? The doodle, I'm sure you know, was originally bred to be a non shedding assistance dog and the myth is that all poodle crosses are non shedding.

They can put together as many clubs as they like, it makes zero difference because it's not law or regulated (unlike the KC, at least to a tiny extent)

And of course I don't think all KC accredited breeders are oh so amazing. Puuhlease, I'm not _totally_ naïve!



Meezey said:


> And neither do all KC breeders
> 
> I'd rather people did something rather than nothing at all to protect the welfare of the dogs..


Yes, but unfortunately, I'd suggest that the majority of doodle breeders aren't following those guidelines. Just my thinking.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> 'coat characteristics to be suited to all kinds of applications and environments' is what it says. Well, it's not, is it? The doodle, I'm sure you know, was originally bred to be a non shedding assistance dog and the myth is that all poodle crosses are non shedding.
> 
> They can put together as many clubs as they like, it makes zero difference because it's not law or regulated (unlike the KC, at least to a tiny extent)
> 
> ...


It does not say non shedding as much as you want it too..

Most GSD, Rottweiler, Lab, Yorkie, Chi, Springer what ever breed you chose don't follow guide lines........... So lets just scrap the KC...  Where do you think breed regulations come from in any breed?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

The KC might be crap, but it's a start from which people can make informed choices and some regulations are in place (ish).

Unfortunately, as much as you want the labradoodle code of practise guidelines to be on a par, they are worse than useless. Breeders of pedigrees or cross breeds, I reckon, mostly don't follow the regulations and this is the problem with ALL breeding.

It occurred to me in the middle of the night that BYBs should be massively fined and that breeding of any kind ought to be strictly regulated by big important laws. Unfortunately, that would be impossible to police and therefore unscrupulous breeders will forever churn out puppies, be they pure or cross breeds and they will never all follow any code of practise.

Ooh, and the non-shedding thing, you can't ignore the elephant in the room: it's there, it's spoken about all the time with poodle crosses, let's not try to pretend it's not a huge selling point. It's not explicit in those guidelines, but it's sure as hell implied!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Not my recollection, she still said bred.
> 
> My springers are kept in appalling conditions, look at the sad faces


You fiend! Those poor dogs! You should be ashamed!

They're clean, well-groomed, well-fed and healthy - where's the street cred in that when they're trying to act tough over a pint of water and a bonio among all of the scrapyard guard dogs down at the "Leash and Frisbee" on a Saturday night?

They'll get laughed out of the bar! I wouldn't be surprised if gangs of puggles even steal their dinner money.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> The KC might be crap, but it's a start from which people can make informed choices and some regulations are in place (ish).
> 
> Unfortunately, as much as you want the labradoodle code of practise guidelines to be on a par, they are worse than useless. Breeders of pedigrees or cross breeds, I reckon, mostly don't follow the regulations and this is the problem with ALL breeding.
> 
> It occurred to me in the middle of the night that BYBs should be massively fined and that breeding of any kind ought to be strictly regulated by big important laws. Unfortunately, that would be impossible to police and therefore unscrupulous breeders will forever churn out puppies, be they pure or cross breeds and they will never all follow any code of practise


The world isn't perfect, and while I don't believe in cross breeds, I do believe that there should be regulation in place, and if the breeder is ethical they will register here and while the UKLA might be **** but it's a start from which people can make informed choices and some regulations are in place  Oh wow look bit like the KC but not.. You know family trees, health test, breeding regulations etc................

Your arguing with yourself, what you want to happen and what you want to stop is what the UKLA is trying to make happen and trying to stop. The KC does the same.

They are both just boards who are try to standardise breeding of dogs and protect their welfare.. People who don't care won't care...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

So labradoodle breeders breed randomly evil horrible people, they try to regulate the breeding so healthy dogs are being bred what you're doing isn't good enough


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Ha, Zak (left) is hard as nails, regularly beats up Rottweilers, I'll have you know!! (He's getting better although I had to run away from a Labrador yesterday!)


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> And all* the teacup chihuahua/pomeranian/yorkie whatever breeders stick to their club's rules?* There are more unethical breeders than good, these guys are trying to do what the breed clubs for purebreds do try to regulate and make breeding better. But of course most breeders aren't going to listen whatever they're breeding.


Don't mention 'teacup' dogs of ANY variety to me! I think that they are an abomination - poor little buggers are so fragile they practically fall to bits when a fly lands on the window - and they are always shivering. I don't think teacup dogs should be allowed either - it is deliberately breeding from the weakest in the litter and it's CRUEL!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Don't mention 'teacup' dogs of ANY variety to me! I think that they are an abomination - poor little buggers are so fragile they practically fall to bits when a fly lands on the window - and they are always shivering. I don't think teacup dogs should be allowed either - it is deliberately breeding from the weakest in the litter and it's CRUEL!


But they can be KC registered..


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> The world isn't perfect, and while I don't believe in cross breeds, I do believe that there should be regulation in place, and if the breeder is ethical they will register here and while the UKLA might be **** but it's a start from which people can make informed choices and some regulations are in place  Oh wow look bit like the KC but not.. You know family trees, health test, breeding regulations etc................
> 
> Your arguing with yourself, what you want to happen and what you want to stop is what the UKLA is trying to make happen and trying to stop. The KC does the same.
> 
> They are both just boards who are try to standardise breeding of dogs and protect their welfare.. People who don't care won't care...


Yup, almost no difference.

Erm, who's arguing (apart from you?!). I'm having a nice discussion, as I told someone 20 minutes ago. Not arguing, I'm agreeing that both are pretty useless. Crap breeders will continue to be crap and unethical.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lostbear said:


> Don't mention 'teacup' dogs of ANY variety to me! I think that they are an abomination - poor little buggers are so fragile they practically fall to bits when a fly lands on the window - and they are always shivering. I don't think teacup dogs should be allowed either - it is deliberately breeding from the weakest in the litter and it's CRUEL!


I didn't say they should be allowed :001_unsure: and I agree with you it's horrific the purebred toys are small enough they don't need to be 2lbs


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> The KC might be crap, but it's a start from which people can make informed choices and some regulations are in place (ish).
> 
> Unfortunately, as much as you want the labradoodle code of practise guidelines to be on a par, they are worse than useless. Breeders of pedigrees or cross breeds, I reckon, mostly don't follow the regulations and this is the problem with ALL breeding.
> 
> ...


I can't understand why they can't be outlawed altogether - that no-one should be allowed to keep more than (say) four breeding bitches. Certainly they shouldn't be able to keep the hundreds of animals that many of them do - with the best will in the world you cannot provide for the physical needs of a huge number of dogs and puppies, let alone the emotional ones.

I know people would still break the law, but it would be easier to clamp down on them, surely?

And I agree with you about the non-shedding fallacy. I've seen this claimed invariably of litters which are poodle crosses, as well as a lot of bedlington cross litters. Maddens me.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Yup, almost no difference.
> 
> Erm, who's arguing (apart from you?!). I'm having a nice discussion, as I told someone 20 minutes ago. Not arguing, I'm agreeing that both are pretty useless. Crap breeders will continue to be crap and unethical.


I'm not arguing just trying to get you to see most of what you are up in arms about is not true..  and I'm providing evidence, which you refute 

See but there's the difference because I know that coat type can't be guaranteed and nothing is said about shedding in fact from the site:

"While some Labradoodles possess characteristics which present no problems for people with allergy sensitivities, there are a great many that are dangerously unsuitable. Allergic reactions can result from a number of doggy factors - the coat, the saliva, dander (dried skin and hair) etc. Also be aware the coat types can vary within the same litter and may change as the dog matures. There are many other non-shedding established dog breeds including Wheaten Terriers, Schnauzers, Airedales and Poodles that are more consistently tolerable to people with pet allergies."


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

I have to say there are a lot of pure bred show type dogs I dislike, I saw pictures of dogs like the original breed standard basset hounds and they hand no wrinkles, now they are expected to have masses of extra skin and wrinkles for showing, the dachshund also was different, English bulldog didn't have a squashed up face, gsd's didn't have those horribly sloped backs yet the kc want that in the show type and actively look for it, when its actually damaging for the dogs (sorry if I offend anyone but seeing the show type gsd with their really sloped backs makes me feel physically sick) they used to have the lovely straight backs we now see in working lines etc.

I don't agree with the designer dog breed trend but I agree with crosses like Labradors and poodles and the like as they were crossed to do a job, I don't have a problems with crosses I own a gsd x collie, my best friend has a staffy x lab x collie, my dogs favourite dog friend is a little Chihuahua x jack Russell. 

I think crossing brachycephalic breeds with normal muzzled dogs can only be a good thing right? with all the breathing problems these purebred dogs have. I don't agree with charging the earth for a cross breed, my boy cost me very little, he was part of an accidental litter bred by the owners teenage daughter without her knowledge but I wouldn't change my boy for the world. my next dog will be a German shepherd but I will take the time and pay the money for a straight backed German shepherd with all the right health tests. its all well and good giving the OP tons of opinions about getting a pure bred dog instead of a cross but she should be informed of the health problems that come with these breeds too.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> I'm not arguing just trying to get you to see most of what you are up in arms about is not true..  and I'm providing evidence, which you refute


Huh? What evidence? About what? We're not in Court here!



Apollo2012 said:


> I don't agree with the designer dog breed trend but I agree with crosses like Labradors and poodles and the like as they were crossed to do a job


What job? That of assistance dogs to people who're allergic to dog hair? Didn't do a very good job, did they? 



> I think crossing brachycephalic breeds with normal muzzled dogs can only be a good thing right? with all the breathing problems these purebred dogs have.


Did you read the bits about a beagle being a hunting dog so crossing it with a dog with breathing problems is probably not the best idea in the world! What pure breds, the pugs?


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I'm not arguing just trying to get you to see most of what you are up in arms about is not true..  and I'm providing evidence, which you refute
> 
> See but there's the difference because I know that coat type can't be guaranteed and nothing is said about shedding in fact from the site:
> 
> "While some Labradoodles possess characteristics which present no problems for people with allergy sensitivities, there are a great many that are dangerously unsuitable. Allergic reactions can result from a number of doggy factors - the coat, the saliva, dander (dried skin and hair) etc. Also be aware the coat types can vary within the same litter and may change as the dog matures. There are many other non-shedding established dog breeds including Wheaten Terriers, Schnauzers, Airedales and Poodles that are more consistently tolerable to people with pet allergies."


But these dog aren't suitable for what job the cross was originally started for, they wanted a dog with the labs trainability, gentleness and general nature along with a dog that is less likely to cause allergies, labradoodles have three coat types but no matter what the coat type if someone is genuinely really allergic to animals they will not be able to have a dog, such as my mum reacts to the saliva, dander and fur so no matter what she would react. but for someone who only reacts to fur or mostly to fur would find it considerably easier to have a service dog like a labradoodle


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> What job? That of assistance dogs to people who're allergic to dog hair? Didn't do a very good job, did they?
> 
> Did you read the bits about a beagle being a hunting dog so crossing it with a dog with breathing problems is probably not the best idea in the world! What pure breds, the pugs?


Obviously they did because there are plenty of people with allergies that now have this type of dog, it depends on the severity of allergies as to whether someone can own a dog and some people have mild allergies which can be helped a lot more by having a dog with a certain type of coat, this cross breeding has also helped families who would never had been able to experience having a dog before now have a dog, a lot of the 'established breeds' with these type of coats aren't suitable for first time dog owners.

yes it would be better for pugs, having cross bred dogs isn't going to wipe out pure bred dogs so it doesn't have to effect pure bred beagles as crosses aren't pure bred, but in the long one like I said for breed with breeding problems being bred out so they have longer muzzles would help them considerably in the long run. all our purebred dogs were crosses originally and a lot of time and effort was spent forming their breed standards the same will happen for dogs like labradoodles, next you will tell me a bobtail boxer shouldn't be considered a pure bred dog as they were bred out with corgis to get the bobtail gene yet they are a *kc registered breed*


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Apollo2012 said:


> yes it would be better for pugs, having cross bred dogs isn't going to wipe out pure bred dogs so it doesn't have to effect pure bred beagles as crosses aren't pure bred, but in the long one like I said for breed with breeding problems being bred out so they have longer muzzles would help them considerably in the long run. all our purebred dogs were crosses originally and a lot of time and effort was spent forming their breed standards the same will happen for dogs like labradoodles, next you will tell me a bobtail boxer shouldn't be considered a pure bred dog as they were bred out with corgis to get the bobtail gene yet they are a *kc registered breed*


Bubba's 1/4 cross in him sorted his snout out a treat.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> Obviously they did because there are plenty of people with allergies that now have this type of dog, it depends on the severity of allergies as to whether someone can own a dog and some people have mild allergies which can be helped a lot more by having a dog with a certain type of coat, this cross breeding has also helped families who would never had been able to experience having a dog before now have a dog, a lot of the 'established breeds' with these type of coats aren't suitable for first time dog owners.
> 
> yes it would be better for pugs, having cross bred dogs isn't going to wipe out pure bred dogs so it doesn't have to effect pure bred beagles as crosses aren't pure bred, but in the long one like I said for breed with breeding problems being bred out so they have longer muzzles would help them considerably in the long run. all our purebred dogs were crosses originally and a lot of time and effort was spent forming their breed standards the same will happen for dogs like labradoodles,* next you will tell me a bobtail boxer shouldn't be considered a pure bred dog as they were bred out with corgis to get the bobtail gene* yet they are a *kc registered breed*


I never knew that! I thought it was a spontaneous mutation. I'd always thought that pembroke corgis were docked (cardigans have their tails long anyway).

Corgi and boxer experts please, to clear up this confusion!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

button50 said:


> Bubba's 1/4 cross in him sorted his snout out a treat.


Nice looking dog!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> Obviously they did because there are plenty of people with allergies that now have this type of dog, it depends on the severity of allergies as to whether someone can own a dog and some people have mild allergies which can be helped a lot more by having a dog with a certain type of coat, this cross breeding has also helped families who would never had been able to experience having a dog before now have a dog, a lot of the 'established breeds' with these type of coats aren't suitable for first time dog owners.
> 
> yes it would be better for pugs, *having cross bred dogs isn't going to wipe out pure bred dogs* so it doesn't have to effect pure bred beagles as crosses aren't pure bred, but in the long one like I said for breed with breeding problems being bred out so they have longer muzzles would help them considerably in the long run. all our purebred dogs were crosses originally and a lot of time and effort was spent forming their breed standards the same will happen for dogs like labradoodles, next you will tell me a bobtail boxer shouldn't be considered a pure bred dog as they were bred out with corgis to get the bobtail gene yet they are a *kc registered breed*


I wouldn't bank on that - the breeders of purebred poodles are very worried about the declining numbers and the shrinking gene pool.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I'm goiing to bed - don't kill each other until I get back at about 5.30 am

Night night
Sleep tight
Don't let the posters bite.


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

lostbear said:


> Nice looking dog!


Thank you he is a lovely little thing


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Apollo2012 this cross breeding has also helped families who would never had been able to experience having a dog before now have a dog said:


> kc registered breed[/B]


Can't agree with your first bit, there are quite a lot of non shedding dogs that would be eminently suitable for first time dog owners. And as I said before, the worst tempered dog I've ever come across is a lab. It attacked one of my dogs every time we crossed paths. It was the owner's first dog.

I'll be telling you what about a bobtail boxer?! Will I really?! Ha, don't think so, sorry, don't care enough. I'm quite aware of the out crossing that's occurred over the years, thanks. I don't think any breed sprang fully formed along with Adam and Eve!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Apollo2012 said:


> I think crossing brachycephalic breeds with normal muzzled dogs can only be a good thing right? with all the breathing problems these purebred dogs have. .


Sady it just isnt' that simple in the case of pugs and beagles.

The dentition is incompatible to start with leading to overshot and undershot jaws I've even seen a photo of a poor dog with a collection of snuggle teeth sticking out in all directions.

Just because you are putting a longer muzzled breed with squished face breed doesn't mean the pups will have a healthier face and easier breathing in in fact you could be putting the drive of a beagle ( a dog that can run all day while singing) in a pug's couldn't run for a bus body. ( I'm sure not all pugs at this bad but a proportion certainly are).

Some crosses are great, but to me this really isn't the best match, it certainly doesn't benefit the beagle which is a generally health breed. A less extreme difference in muzzle shape to reduce the possibility of dental issues and more compatible breed traits would probably be more beneficial.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

moonviolet said:


> Sady it just isnt' that simple in the case of pugs and beagles.
> 
> The dentition is incompatible to start with leading to overshot and undershot jaws I've even seen a photo of a poor dog with a collection of snuggle teeth sticking out in all directions.
> 
> ...


Ok maybe not a normal muzzled dog but at least a dog with a longer muzzle than a pug or other squish faced breed. I feel so bad for all these squish faced dogs I see struggling to breath, I could never own one because honestly it would feel wrong to me to have a dog that will struggle to breathe for its entire life I watched my nans miniature yorkie have breathing problems her entire life and it was horrible and she didn't even have a squished face.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Can't agree with your first bit, there are quite a lot of non shedding dogs that would be eminently suitable for first time dog owners. And as I said before, the worst tempered dog I've ever come across is a lab. It attacked one of my dogs every time we crossed paths. It was the owner's first dog.
> 
> I'll be telling you what about a bobtail boxer?! Will I really?! Ha, don't think so, sorry, don't care enough. I'm quite aware of the out crossing that's occurred over the years, thanks. I don't think any breed sprang fully formed along with Adam and Eve!


and the best tempered dogs I've ever come across have been Labradors, I spent an amazing 17 years growing up with Two Labradors and every Labrador I have ever met has been gentle and just wanted fuss or to play. obviously the owner of the lab you knew shouldn't of had a dog and probably got a lab as they hear the saying 'labs are born half trained' and think great I don't have to do anything which is stupid, labs are a great first dog if your willing to train them and learn as you go along not just get a dog and expect it to do everything with no effort put in.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

button50 said:


> Bubba's 1/4 cross in him sorted his snout out a treat.


He's gorgeous this is what I mean I bet it's so much easier for him to breath


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Apollo2012 said:


> He's gorgeous this is what I mean I bet it's so much easier for him to breath


He has no issues what so ever. You wouldnt think he was crossed with a Bishon though would you lol


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

button50 said:


> He has no issues what so ever. You wouldnt think he was crossed with a Bishon though would you lol


Not at all. his eyes look a lot better too they don't look like there gunna pop out his head like pugs do lol


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Apollo2012 said:


> Not at all. his eyes look a lot better too they don't look like there gunna pop out his head like pugs do lol


When i first got him our village vets said it was so lovely to see a pug looking so healthy.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

moonviolet said:


> Sady it just isnt' that simple in the case of pugs and beagles.
> 
> The dentition is incompatible to start with leading to overshot and undershot jaws I've even seen a photo of a poor dog with a collection of snuggle teeth sticking out in all directions.
> 
> ...


What a wonderful definition! It should be in the breed standard.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> and the best tempered dogs I've ever come across have been Labradors, I spent an amazing 17 years growing up with Two Labradors and every Labrador I have ever met has been gentle and just wanted fuss or to play. obviously the owner of the lab you knew shouldn't of had a dog and probably got a lab as they hear the saying 'labs are born half trained' and think great I don't have to do anything which is stupid, labs are a great first dog if your willing to train them and learn as you go along not just get a dog and expect it to do everything with no effort put in.


I have to agree with CT as regards labs - we can all only speak from our own experience, and mine is that labs can be unpredictable.

When our staffy was still a baby (five months or so), we encountered a lab bitch on a walk. Grace, being a daft little pup, wiggled up to her wagging, did all the submissive piddling and muzzle-sniffing stuff, and then rolled onto her back in total submission. The lab sniffed her from her face, down to her 'ladybits' and back up to her neck - and then grabbed her throat . She screamed, I nearly had a kitten and the owner just stood there like the long streak of p1ss he was while I bit his dog's ear to get her off. He then said, "She's just protecting her toys" (Presumably by this, he meant the ball he had in his hand). I was so anxious to get Grace to a vet that apart from a ladylike parting shot of "[email protected]" rushed off. Never seen him in the field since, although prior to that he was a regular, Grace still has a scar - one of two she has received from dogs who attacked HER when she was a puppy, and whose owners then blamed her actions for their dogs' bad behaviour.

A neighbour had a pack of seven labs that she took out, didn't pick up after, and which ran in as a pack at every dog they met - they rarely did damage, but they terrified the life out of dogs and people. Everyone avoided her, but I think I was the only one who challenged her. They were good dogs, spoilt.

I have met lovely labs - but I've met some right sods, too. Someone once said to me "If you see a bad dog, have a look at what's on the other end of the lead" and I think that's by and large right.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Given the number of Labradors bred, it's hardly surprising there's good and bad out there!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I know I said not to kill each other, but I am woefully disappointed at the lack of carnage. You must all have been as tired as I was.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

How about hard evidence....? 

I have a nearly 2yo Puggle who I've had from a pup, the only breathing problems he has is when he's stuck his nose into something and he has a few reverse-snorts and he's back to normal, sometimes he snores, sometimes not
I have also met a handful of other puggle owners and not one has said they have trouble with their breathing.

Not one thing has been wrong with my chap and most people who meet him comment on how healthy he looks.

I would say however that maybe not the best first dog for a young boy

Any other info the OP wants give me a shout, far from claiming to be the puggle expert I do know a fait bit, breeders, prices etc from all the research I did before taking the plunge. 

I haven't rear the whole thread from page 6 or so onwards as got bored of the cross/not cross codswallop that always gets bandied about on here and quickly becomes very boring, I mean...who cares???


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Just a couple of pics from pages that popped up when entering puggle teeth in google images https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...KR7AacrIGQBA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=566




























I'm not saying that there can't be happy healthy individual puggles but they certainly not the be all and end all in healthy dogs.

Pugs as a breed also carry 3 types of dwarfism. beagles carry one this is the sort of deformity that the cross can present


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

moonviolet said:


> Just a couple of pics from pages that popped up when entering puggle teeth in google images https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...KR7AacrIGQBA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=566
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To me your post says it all - especially the pictures of those deformed feet. I don't mind a fugly dog, as long as it is healthy, so the grotty teeth wouldn't bother me unless they had a bad affect on the dog, but those forelimbs are going to hurt.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I think another poster mentioned a site previously I think this is the oen it also has more sad photos.
Autumnal


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

Never heard of odd puggle teeth before to be honest!


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

To be fair those autumnal pics, they don't even look like real puggles, some are crossed with other dogs that can achieve the sex position with the beagle and passed off as a proper puggle, hence the weird non puggle muzzles etc, do your homework


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Alot of dogs have that look sometimes see my attached pic Bubs does it every so often.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Frankthewonderhound said:


> To be fair those autumnal pics, they don't even look like real puggles, some are crossed with other dogs that can achieve the sex position with the beagle and passed off as a proper puggle, hence the weird non puggle muzzles etc, do your homework


why so aggressive?

If asked about the problems seen in the beagle breed I admit the issues openly and talk about the tests available etc.

what is a proper puggle muzzle? Common sense dictates the chances are with such different parents it's very likely to be a range in the offspring.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

button50 said:


> Alot of dogs have that look sometimes see my attached pic Bubs does it every so often.


Apollo can do this too and he doesn't have a funny jaw or teeth and definitely isn't a puggle lol its his special smile , I don't think I have a pictures of him doing it though it usually happens when he is asking for something. those puggles don't look like they have snaggle tooth's they just look like they've got there lip between their teeth, the picture of the deformed 'puggles' I think probably came from parents that already had conformation problems like bowed legs etc. also the same way children who weren't fed properly years got things like rickets, bowed legs etc (hence the old wives tale that you shouldn't stand babies up as they will end up with bowed legs) these dog probably weren't provided with the nutrition they needed as pups. unfortunately random pictures can only tell you so much.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

You all need a break and come back afresh tomorrow - go and play on the crumpet thread for a while to relax


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## blossomsuz (Jun 18, 2013)

Daisy my Puggle (black one), has a slightly undershot jaw according to my vet but Doug (Jack Russell cross Pug fawn) smiles a lot more than she does


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

http://www.border-wars.com/2011/05/dwarf-dogs.html


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Dont' get me wrong I am sure they are lovely dogs but i'm not convinced on them being a healthier altenative to pugs, especially when you start to look at F2 puggles, who could ( because of having 2 sources of beagle dna) suffer from the recessive genetic conditions MLS, NCCD and factor VII deficiency. All detectable with the appropriate DNA tests I'm yet to see an advert for an F2 puggle where there is any mention of these tests being carried out.

I'm all for appropriate crosses and outcrosses, to improve health, for *ME* this pairing simply doesn't fit the bill when you step back and look at the wider picture and not the, i'm sure, very lovely individuals.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

Saying 'do your homework' is far from being ''aggressive'' 

a lot of people on here seem to be obsessed with who's breed is healthier than everyone elses, I am not disagreeing with what your point is but stating that by the look of some of the dogs in those pics I suspect a few are more than likely not the true pug x beagle 

anyway.......


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Frankthewonderhound said:


> Saying 'do your homework' is far from being ''aggressive''
> 
> a lot of people on here seem to be obsessed with who's breed is healthier than everyone elses, I am not disagreeing with what your point is but stating that by the look of some of the dogs in those pics I suspect a few are more than likely not the true pug x beagle
> 
> anyway.......


I have as much evidence that they are as you have that they are not. So I think we'll have to park that.

For me health is exceptionally important and I want to know that everything possible is being done to prevent conditions that cause pain, suffering, reduced quality or length of life.

Hundreds of puggle pics found on Puggle.org and they show a huge range of diversity.
http://www.puggle.org/puggle/picture/102434/Sunny


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

And what a fantastic attribute that is.

Is there much about back problems with beagles?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Frankthewonderhound said:


> And what a fantastic attribute that is.
> 
> Is there much about back problems with beagles?


You are right, they can be prone to IVDD particularly in the cervical spine, often linked to lead pulling, personally looked for a breeder that preferred short backs. I then put great effort into loose leash walking, reliability offlead and use a harness for areas that are onlead only.

My homework is well done, thank you.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

?

I wasn't being sarcastic and that was a serious question.

Nevermind.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Frankthewonderhound said:


> ?
> 
> I wasn't being sarcastic and that was a serious question.
> 
> Nevermind.


with all the "do your homework" attitude you were giving before you now expect me to know you are asking a genuine question.

As I said can be prone to Intervertrbral disc disease particularly in the neck, but it can present anywhere along the spine, jumping down from boulders or the out of high vehicles etc can be particular damaging.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> with all the "do your homework" attitude you were giving before you now expect me to know you are asking a genuine question.
> 
> As I said can be prone to Intervertrbral disc disease particularly in the neck, but it can present anywhere along the spine, jumping down from boulders or the out of high vehicles etc can be particular damaging.


hmmm - ok...


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

a quick look for back issues in pugs shows that they can suffer from hemivertebrae primarily in the corkscrew tail but it can occur anywhere along the length of the spine

the following quote from pugvillage 
Hemivertebrae in Pugs

_Aside from the tail, Hemivertebrae can also occur in other parts of the vertebral column. These types of Hemivertebrae can occur in the middle of the backbone thus resulting in the arching of the back. This can create areas in the spine which can be susceptible to injury. A dog suffering from this form of hemivertebrae often suffers from pain even with the slightest movement._

SO the beagle prone to ruptured discs and the pug to hemivertebrae really doesn't make them a match made in heaven. Imagine the dog that suffers both. that said I haven't found any genetic information.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

The original idea back in the 90's from info I have read was to shorten the back and lengthen the muzzle but hadn't read that back problems were that common in beagles.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Frankthewonderhound said:


> The original idea back in the 90's from info I have read was to shorten the back and lengthen the muzzle but hadn't read that back problems were that common in beagles.


As I keep saying this is not about individual dogs but the arms length overview.

just glancing at the KC breed information
Pugs
Group: Toy
size small
weight 6.3- 8.1 kg
exercise requirement up to 30 mins per day.

Beagles
Group: hound
size: medium 13-16 inches at withers
weight not listed on kc breed standard but often stated as 13 -17 kg (in beagle welfare literature)
exercise requirement more than 2 hours a day!

a huge difference in size which would mean putting a male beagle to a female pug a risky business, a very different exercise requirement.

I think choosing a breed that has a nice muzzle is rather oversimplifying things.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

All the breeders I have spoken to get the cross through AI

I didn't say 'nice' muzzle but a lengthened one to counteract the breathing difficulties. I think the last thing I will say on this is, again, I agree with most of what you are saying but my main point of reference is my own dog, so yeah, I will maybe be a little biased but him and the other puggles I've met have been very healthy happy dogs, F1 + 2.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Sjenner77 said:


> Would a puggle make a good pet for a child?
> 
> .


No. 
Get him something that`s not alive. Children cannot take animals to the vet, take out insurance, take them on long walks, go to training clubs, go on holiday with them, sit with them while they die, go and buy their food, ensure they always have fresh water and nurse them through sickness.

Of course, if YOU want a dog that your child can also delight in, great. 
But not an overpriced mongrel with health problems, possibly?


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> No.
> Get him something that`s not alive. Children cannot take animals to the vet, take out insurance, take them on long walks, go to training clubs, go on holiday with them, sit with them while they die, go and buy their food, ensure they always have fresh water and nurse them through sickness.


So, you're saying children should never have pets? (That's what it sounds like.)

Children should never experience the responsibility of caring for another living creature, along with all the joy and valuable life skills that brings? I'm glad neither of my parents thought that way.

Of course, he can't be responsible for every aspect of the dog's welfare, but the OP isn't proposing to just buy him a dog and leave him to get on with it.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

lulubel said:


> So, you're saying children should never have pets? (That's what it sounds like.)
> 
> Children should never experience the responsibility of caring for another living creature, along with all the joy and valuable life skills that brings? I'm glad neither of my parents thought that way.
> .


Legally, no. Children can not own pets. Because they are under 18. The OP knows nothing about dogs and it proposing to buy one for her child. I don`t really see why you find that acceptable. 
Animals are not toys.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Legally, no. Children can not own pets. Because they are under 18. The OP knows nothing about dogs and it proposing to buy one for her child. I don`t really see why you find that acceptable.
> Animals are not toys.


I dont think the OP means that her child will be responsible for the dog. Obviously as a parent she will ultimately be responsible for the dog but there is nothing wrong with wanting to help your child learn about responsibilities and dog ownership. No children cant own pets but they can still do things with them I used to walk my dogs 3 times a day the first at half 6 in the morning every morning from the age of about 12, that was something I chose to do for my dogs as well as teaching them tricks, feeding and making sure they had water. I wasbt forced to do it infact I loved doing it and it taught me a lot.

My daughter is 2 and a half she comes with me to walk our dog every day twice a day in all weather (unless she's ill). She has now started trying to use commands with him when she gives him treats and plays fetch with him while at home. I dont expect her to look after him, he was bought as a family dog as I wanted my daughter to grow up with dogs like I did and I wanted to have a dog again as mine had been put to sleep 3 years before. He is my responsibility but he is our dog not just mine.


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