# Help - should I have my Labrador neutered?



## KerryO30 (Nov 10, 2009)

I have a 10 and half month old Labrador called Archie and was visited by a dog trainer/behaviourist recently, after I contacted him because Archie is showing signs of dominance towards me (mouth's me, sometimes doesn't listen to me, unless I am feeding him!), jumps up all the time and pulls beyond belief on the lead. Archie does like to 'hump' his bed, but if I take if off him, he doesn't attempt to do it to anything else. He's not done it to me or members of my family. After an hour the trainer said that I would need to have him neutered before I could address the issues I have with him.

My initial reaction was isn't it a bit drastic to suggest having him neutered? So with that in mind before I make the decision about having him 'done' ! I would like to know other members views, particularly as to when is the best age to have it done? Will it calm him down? Having done some reading on google, I am more confused than ever with the pro's and con's! Of course the Vet agrees, but is that because of the money they will get from me, should I decide to go ahead?


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Some say it doesn't make a difference having them neutered, personally, I think it does calm them down a bit. Plus, you don't have to worry about him ever impregnating a female.

However I don't agree with the trainer, saying you couldn't address the issues without him being neutered, sounds like she just wasn't up to the challenge. 

If you don't want him neutered, try looking for another trainer first, if you still have no luck, have a look into it. I'd probably wait until he's at least a year old.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

A lot of male dogs are a lot happier when they are done. More inclined to listen to you. The best time to have them done is when they have been cocking their leg for about a month. Maybe best to leave yours till he is over one year old. This will give you chance to see if you can sort the problems out before you make the decision.


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## KerryO30 (Nov 10, 2009)

Thank you for the info, he hasn't actually started to cock his leg yet, so I will take on board what you've said.


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

This wouldn't happen to be someone from Barkbusters would it?


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## KerryO30 (Nov 10, 2009)

OMG yes!! Please tell me more?!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

From a veterinary Q & A site.

Neutering male dogs is an important responsibility of dog ownership, and will be the best way to keep your male dog from becoming aggressive and/or wandering off. If you do not plan on breeding your dog, then the recommended age to neuter male dogs is when the dog reaches maturity, at around six months of age or any time thereafter.

Neutering male dogs will prevent the following behavioral and medical problems:

- Reduce the risk of testicular cancer

- Reduce the risk of prostate enlargement

- Reduced chance of rectal tumors

- Unwanted puppies

- Straying from the home

- Aggression

- Humping and other dominate behavior

The younger you neuter your male dog, the better your chances for preventing the problems listed. When a male dog sexually matures, it will begin looking for a female dog to mate with. A male dog can smell the pheromones produced by a female dog from up to three miles away, so even if you live in a neighborhood where other dogs are not present, they can pick up the scent from female dogs in other areas. Additionally, a male dog that has not been neutered is more likely to get involved in dog fights with other males in an attempt to claim territory.

Once you've made the decision to neuter your dog, make an appoint with your veterinarian. Your veterinarian will advise you to have your pet go without food and water for 12 hours before the operation. On the day of the operation, you will drop your pet off and they will stay there the entire day. Your dog will be anesthetized before the operation, and then the veterinarian will remove his testicles and also a small section of the spermatic cords. This is done through a small incision, and is then stitched close.

on a personal note one of my males was kept entire til he was 9 because I showed him, he could be a nightmare, very dominant, was dreadful when the girls were in season, I retired him from the showring and got him neutered, he is like a completely different dog, I was actually amazed in the difference, he is totally chilled out, seems to enjoy things a bit better instead of having to be on his toes all the time, not missed a single meal when the girls are in season, a pleasure on walks now, I sometimes wish I had him done years ago.

Mo


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Heard a lot of bad things from Barkbusters, but never actually used them.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

I had my previous dog neutered at 2 years and it was the best thing I ever did. Neutering is not a solution or a subsititute for training, but can help tremendously if combined with training.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

All my dogs are castrated as they are rescues, but I'm not always pro the chop 'em off brigade!! In your case I would suggest it's an avenue worth following, have a chat with your vet as it's not a major op for the boys and they are back and bouncing within acouple of hours and it _can_ have a major effect to the positive. BUT not always, it's certainly not a miracle cure and it doesn't replace consistant training.

I know many complete males who are fine and dandy but sometimes esp if you are struggling to gain control it can just give you the edge to let him have the op. If you are confident he's mature enough to cope and your vet agree's I'd follow up the idea, no point doing it unless you are willing to put in the hours training him though. Ask your vet about some good training classes in your area to recommend, maybe clicker training as I'm sure being a lab your boy is food orientated so it's a great training method for them. When he's abit older and calmer maybe think about some sort of working training too?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I wouldn't neuter boys until they are at least a year old, and for labradors, I'd wait until he's 18 months because of their bones. Large breed dogs won't be fully mature until they are 15-18 months so I'd wait a bit longer and see what you feel when he's around 15 months of age.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, kerry! :--)

i would desex ASAP, simply because if i was not intent on breeding him, the health benefits outweigh any negatives. (see mo;s post). 
it also lessens the M-dogs intensity, meaning less-likely to Bite (humans or other animals), less-likely to Fight (ditto), etc.

and that would be solely on the issue of intact vs neutered - not with any specific consideration of major behavioral issues.

re *Dominance - eek!* _this is IMO the single most-abused, misused + misunderstood term in dog-behavior, and does not even belong in training discussions, as it actually is INTRAspecies behavior - not INTERspecies._ :mad2: :frown2:

lets look at this from a whole nother POV - the dogs. 
here are the things that U list as dominance behaviors: 
>> Archie is showing signs of dominance towards me (mouth's me, sometimes doesn't listen to me, unless I am feeding him!), jumps up all the time and pulls beyond belief on the lead. Archie does like to 'hump' his bed, but if I take if off him, he doesn't attempt to do it to anything else. He's not done it to me or members of my family.

taken in order - 
*mouthing* 
Labs are oral - its a fixation from the time they can walk; they mouth, chew, carry, lick, etc. this comes-along with those other nice gundog qualities, trainable if not biddable, + relatively-high pain threshold. the high-pain tolerance means that Labs are a full-body contact-sport, :laugh: and if U are a dainty type, or keep high-tea with good china and expect the dogs to partake BEFORE they are 10-YO, U may want to look at another breed - Or be willing to do some real training for manners, not the usual spit-and-halfhearted polish. :rolleyes5:

lets face it, Ur dog is not an axe-murderer - every thing that U mention, is prototypical IMO of a bored, healthy, *normal* M-Lab. 
(with the possible exception of his transference love-object, LOL...)

2 - *Doesn;t listen:* he;s the rough equivalent of a 14 - 15-YO boy: 
how well did U listen, back then? :wink5: truthfully, now - were U an utterly compliant, did Ur chores + homework kid at that age? 
he needs to grow-up, and removing his all-year, every-year, ever-ready gonads can only help, if simply by removing one huge distraction.

3 - *jumps-up:* this is a hard-wired puppy greeting-behavior, and as dogs are always our *children* in terms of who is primarily responsible for whom, that seems reasonable. it is not the dog;s fault that our mouths are so inconveniently high off the ground; if we would only stop this bipedal nonsense, they could greet us appropriately, without all this fuss! 

another Moment Of Truth: 
when he was 10-WO, or 12-WO, did U ask him to SIT rather than jump - teaching an alternate + incompatible behavior? (i would bet against it, ;--) if his BUTT is glued to the floor, his forefeet cannot be on U, a guest, the meter-nik, the kid-next-door, etc.

4 - *pulls beyond belief:* do U by any chance use a Flexi? or any other extendable leash? 
they are, IMO, instruments of the Devil. they Teach! the pup to pull, as they MUST pull to deploy the leash; then the pup / dog must *Maintain the Tension* to keep the leash extended, or else it is pulled back into the SPRING-mounted reel. 
having taught the dog from puppyhood to pull with this cursed tool the owner wakes-up one morning, and announces that the dog (now 6-MO or more) pulls, dammit, and is aggrieved. :frown2: oy...

another consideration - How fast do U walk? 
most adult humans past 25-YO who are not speedwalkers or marathon runners do about 5-miles-a-week... yes, that is a slight exaggeration, but only slight.  BRISKLY stepping-out with intent will get the dog focused on where we - note that WE - are going, and maintaining a brisk pace allows both human + dog to actually get some doggone exercise, here.

if U tend to forget, and simply dawdle along at the dogs heels as he meanders from tree, to post, to shrub, to hydrant, to hubcap... lum-de-dum, -Or- if U spend the dogs walkie on Ur Cell Phone... 
then this is the very crux of the problem. hang-up, pay attn to the dog, and MOVE toward a specific visual goal - this is where intention comes in, LOL. when U are getting close, choose another distant goal; repeat ad infinitum.

if pulling really IS a major problem, manage first - Training comes After control. 
buy an H-harness that fits him properly, snug but not tight, without rolling around - and be SURE it has a chest-ring. put it on adjusted to fit, clip the leash to his Chest, and set off... Briskly, LOL. U can now convert his own momentum to use against him, gently + easily, by moving both hands holding the leash, InWard across Ur own path - Hes on the right? wrists straight, hands \/ --- low --- \/, move hands Left <-----. 
hes on the left? wrists straight, hands low, move them ---> right.

5) *humping:* if he has Not! mounted humans, hassocks, every dog he meets of both sexes and every gender, 
head-on or from behind, and other animate and inanimate objects, consider Urself lucky. :001_rolleyes: hoo, boy... 
hormonal M-pups from about 5-MO to at least 10 or 11-MO are going from puberty (11-YO boy) to teenager (14 to 15-YO) in about 6-mos time, and UNlike humans and other M-mammals, M-dogs testosterone ** peaks! ** at 9-MO, and then tapers downwards - it is never that high again (barring things like tumors, etc).

each bitch is only interested in sex 2x a year; M-dogs are incessantly primed, just in case somebody is available. 
not only that, but intact-Ms spend a lot of time looking, posturing at other Ms, trying to flirt with any F, throwing a little weight around with the boys, and in other bachelor-type pursuits. luckily, dogs do not drink alcohol unless some evil human teaches them to, nor do they smoke, or drive hot-cars or hefty motorcycles... or no doubt, hormonal M-dogs would be indulging in those activities, and our roads would be littered with the wreckage of intact-M-teendogs, pie-eyed beside the crumpled remains of some chromed vehicle. :yikes:

in sum: i would just snip him and be done with it. (shrug) 
he is well-past 6-Mo, and i see no point in dallying, and good reason to desex - Why not? 
cheers, and this is IME + IMO, 
--- terry


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

I had chester neutured at 6 months , he was a very hyper puppy (although now i do think that was down to the food I was giving him - hills!) and was a nightmare to train, but on a positive note it really did help him, the only problem I have really had with was his barking. I did speak to someone at barkbusters who wanted a hell of a lot of money over two hundred pounds which put me off them straight away. I got help from a local trainer/behavourist for 40 quid and his barking is no longer a problem.


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

KerryO30 said:


> I have a 10 and half month old Labrador called Archie and was visited by a dog trainer/behaviourist recently, after I contacted him because Archie is showing signs of dominance towards me (mouth's me, sometimes doesn't listen to me, unless I am feeding him!), jumps up all the time and pulls beyond belief on the lead. Archie does like to 'hump' his bed, but if I take if off him, he doesn't attempt to do it to anything else. He's not done it to me or members of my family. After an hour the trainer said that I would need to have him neutered before I could address the issues I have with him.
> 
> My initial reaction was isn't it a bit drastic to suggest having him neutered? So with that in mind before I make the decision about having him 'done' ! I would like to know other members views, particularly as to when is the best age to have it done? Will it calm him down? Having done some reading on google, I am more confused than ever with the pro's and con's! Of course the Vet agrees, but is that because of the money they will get from me, should I decide to go ahead?


I would definately look for another trainer/behaviourist registered with the APDT or APBC. It sounds like this one doesn't have a clue.

As highlighted above these are not dominant behaviours but training issues.

Neutering won't solve anything, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't get him neutered anyway.


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## KerryO30 (Nov 10, 2009)

Just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to reply, it's very much appreciated.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think behaviourists are over rated - its like anything you can good one that know what they are taklking about and will give you constructive training advice and you will get others who dont give any advice and go for quick/immediate measures to gain results.

If your going for a second appointment have you thought about finding another one? Personally 'a little bit of agression to me' does not justify cutting his bits off. It means you need to step up a gear and look at how your treating him - things like exercise, stimulation, consistancy, comands, direction, training

No training is easy - it is very time consuming and has to be done on a daily basis with a variety of distractions


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2009)

I am not in favour of routine male castration unless you cannot keep control over your dog...
The health benefits do NOT outweigh the risks, there is no real definite conclusion on that one, if you look at the scientific evidence, the jury is still out  (not the same for spaying though).

At the very least I would suggest you wait until you boy has fully matured, both physically and mentally (around 18 to 24 months).

All the issues you mention can be dealt with with appropriate training and anyway neutering is not a quick fix at all and may not change anything!

Find another trainer


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think someone that mentions neutering on the first day of meeting isnt that interested in training and is passing off the problem to another area, especially when there only "a little bit of agresssion" 
Just look at your delivery and consistency of commands.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

moboyd said:


> From a veterinary Q & A site.
> 
> Neutering male dogs is an important responsibility of dog ownership, and will be the best way to keep your male dog from becoming aggressive and/or wandering off. If you do not plan on breeding your dog, then the recommended age to neuter male dogs is when the dog reaches maturity, at around six months of age or any time thereafter.
> 
> ...


Great post. Wholeheartedly agree!

My sisters bull dog was an absolute pain before he was done. he was very dominant, humped and could be quite insolent. The change after he was done was quite staggering!

However, don't think this will solve all your problems. Maybe the dog has a more dominant personality than you? Something to think about......


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

If you remove the testosterone, then you only have to deal with the training, I like to think a dog that is being driven by his testosterone is like something continually saying bla bla bla bla bla bla what was that bla bla bla bla I smell some thing bla bla bla blawoo woo a nice girl bla bla bla bla who's that strutting his stuff I'll show him, bla bla bla, and this is while you are trying to get him to hear YOU.

Mo


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

I am staunchly pro-neuter, for the health benefits and prevention of unwanted litters, and in some cases it can help behaviourally too however that will only be the case in testosterone driven cases. It can and usually does help with better attention etc but should not be done as a behavioural `treatment` alone as its training which is needed for that side of things generally.

I would suggest you ask your vet about the implant or short series of jabs which mimics the snip initially. Over a few months [ it can take a while to see any difference, same as the snip itself ], you will know whether or not the actual op will have the benefits behaviourally which you would like to see and if it does`nt make any difference then you will know the snip won`t make a difference either. 
The implant or jabs are reversible, [ wearing off when not continued ].

At least if you try one of those instead of the op you wont feel resentment about being advised to do it if it does`nt make a behavioural difference, though for the health benefits I would still urge you to consider it.

Utilising the mimics also would mean he would be a few months older by the time you might have him snipped if that`s a concern to you though the factual evidence of young neuter [ and he is already past the age involved anyway ], is not that it affects bones or growth in anything but a positive way [ up to 7 months of age slightly slows the growth plate closures resulting in higher density stronger bones, and very very young neuters - around 8 weeks of age - in some cases - only some - can grow one or two mil taller than they might have done, that`s all, and that has been more noted in cats than dogs anyway but there are plenty of scaremongers around who don`t want to hear the medical factual side of things.

**The one anomalous breed is Rotties for which there is ongoing research into the possibility that those with *already present* cancer cells so will develop it anyway *might* develop it sooner if neutered under the age of 3 but it must be stressed that the research has not been concluded, it`s only a theory at the moment, and only relevant regarding the individual dogs which are *already predisposed* to a particular form of cancer ].

So anyway, if you are unsure, I would try a mimic treatment first


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

PS the behaviours you mention are not dominance, they are typical young dog exploring what`s ok and what is`nt, and as for the Barkbusters franchise :shocked: well, the phrase `run awaaaaay` springs to mind


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

The injection does not always indicate if a neuter would work at a later date, I tried I think the name was Tadart or something like that with my boy it made absolutley no difference whatsoever, hence my reason for keeping my boy entire for so long, eventually I had had enough, I had girls in season, he was climbing the walls, and I thought sod it, it cant hurt, so I got him in the next day at work and had hime done, obviously it didnt work straight away, but by the next season he was a different boy, the injections never had a result like this so not always going to get the desired results.

Mo


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

moboyd said:


> The injection does not always indicate if a neuter would work at a later date, I tried I think the name was Tadart or something like that with my boy it made absolutley no difference whatsoever, hence my reason for keeping my boy entire for so long, eventually I had had enough, I had girls in season, he was climbing the walls, and I thought sod it, it cant hurt, so I got him in the next day at work and had hime done, obviously it didnt work straight away, but by the next season he was a different boy, the injections never had a result like this so not always going to get the desired results.
> 
> Mo


There`s always one :laugh:

Seriously though, as with any treatment for any condition there is no guarantee of desired effect with every case so yes it`s certainly possible that it might fail but it`s a route to try at least while unsure of going ahead with the snip, [ which I would favour regardless for health and prevention of unwanted litters ], so it was a valid suggestion I feel 
Tardak is the one you mean I think, it`s what my lad had until he was healthy enough for the op. 
There are different administration regimes for different levels of needs in terms of frequency of dosages so could it be that your lads regime just was`nt the right one for him :001_huh:
My lad had three lots 6 weeks apart, but the current recommendations are :

"In most cases it is necessary to allow two to four days to elapse before the effect of the treatment is observed.
Animals not showing improvement within eight days should be treated a second time with at least the dose level previously given.
Animals showing a favourable response can be expected to require follow-up treatment after a three to four week period. Further treatment in 'social indications' is recommended at the first sign of reappearance of the effectively controlled indication."

[ from NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Tardak 10 mg/ml Suspension for Injection - Dosage and administration ]

as you can see what my boy had was far less than `standard` yet still had a marked effect so it could be that your lad might have befitted from the higher-need end but if he did have that anyway then unfortunately he was just one of the dogs which just does`nt respond to it at all so absolutely fair point to include your experience to balance against mine, it gives the OP more information to take to the vet if enquiring about it as a possibility along with asking about the implant variety


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I feel if you have no intentions of breeding from your dog then yes neuter. It is not a replacement for training but it certainly can give it a helping hand while a dog has all the hormones coursing through his body training can be difficult so why make training harder for you and the dog. for medical reasons i would never ever keep a dog intact we learnt the hard way i would never want to see a dog go through what we watched with ours he got an advanced stage enlarged prostate, was very very ill and if not neutered would have gone quickly to prostate cancer.


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## puppyface (Dec 10, 2009)

NO - you shouldn't. And the trainer shouldn't be a dog trainer.
Andyes - the vet is after your money.
I think you should wait to see how he is when he is physically and mentally mature. He's in the middle of 'dog puberty' and yes it can be a stressfull time, both for you and him. Just make the boundaries clear for him, he might close his ears, so be patient with him, but keep the rules and boundaries clear.
He wont listen, he's testing you. Typical young dog.
This is common when they get mature!
He's pulling on the lead because he is becoming more interested in all the smells, maybe bitches in heat?

I think it's horrible that so many suggest neutering for this 'problem'. What a stupid answer to a common every-day problem for a teenager-dog.
It's not a problem! He's getting mature. Let him grow up, he's still a young dog. He's getting physical mature now, and will become mentally mature 18-24 months -wait and see what he's like after that before you make a decision.
Beconsistant and give him clear rules.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

happysaz133 said:


> Heard a lot of bad things from Barkbusters, but never actually used them.


My neighbours used them with good results.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

moboyd said:


> The injection does not always indicate if a neuter would work at a later date, I tried I think the name was Tadart or something like that with my boy it made absolutley no difference whatsoever....


Tardak - yes, I tried that on mine. No differenc here either. Then later, a trainer recommended me to have him neutered and to be honest, he's got worse since.

There are some dogs whose behaviour is fear-based, and neutering them will sometimes remove what little confidence they had. I've since found out it's not uncommon in his breed - wish I'd known before.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

puppyface said:


> And yes - the vet is after your money.


Really? Surely the vet would make a lot more cash in the long term from patching up your dog if he gets into fights with other males, treating possible prostate disease of trying to repair his injuries if he runs off after a bitch and gets hit by a car.

I don't think it's a total cure-all. Imagine if it was the first option in dealing with young male yobs of the human variety.....well maybe it's not such a bad idea!

Seriously, a good trainer should be able to train an entire dog.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

I am all up for neutering if you don't need to breed from.It does have some health benefits. But I would def wait til his more mature and his bones have done the growth.

the earlier you neuter the slankier the dog gets. It can have serious consequence for a lab which is already prone to dysplasia. They also need to be emotionally mature and been through all the fear phases because they need the testosterone then or you might end up with aggression.

from what you describe it sounds to me like a normal lab


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Oh I should add, neutering can help with the humping, but don't put your money on it... Ray at 11 months started humping males and females done and not. At the same time he was humped constantly that resulted in bad reactions... It wasn't dominance, just age! He has grown out of it and has not been humped since phfew!

ray was done at 3 months :yikes: (rescue centre!) Result: He is phobic and has elbow displasia 

humping is part of the age progress and often just a sign of excitment (non sexual!)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re dodigna -



> ...need to be... through all the fear phases because they need
> the testosterone then or you might end up with aggression.


hey, digs! :--)

the usual onset of the secondary-fear-period is about 6-mos; this young dog is about 11-MO, which should be *well-*past?

also, if early-desex *caused* fear-based aggro - then the literally millions upon millions of M-dogs across the USA, 
juvie-neutered at 7 to 8-WO / 49-to-56 days, should have produced a tidal wave of aggro cases. 
instead, most of the juvie-neuters that i have worked with (clients dogs) and met (friends dogs) are pretty consistently 
great with humans of all ages, and the huge majority of dogs. :thumbsup:

the few exceptions are often highly-reactive breeds like terrierrists, who still tend to get barky when they spot 
another dog - not to drive them away, generally, but in excitement! LOL... 
they wanna play, and tug at the leash, alternately play-bowing and rearing in frustration, while barking. 

JMO + IME, Ur mileage may vary! 
--- terry


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