# Blue Merle Collie



## ladypegasus (Jan 28, 2011)

Hi.
This is my first post. 
I have a 4 1/2 year old blue merle collie, I got her from Wales under the reccomendation that the breeder was a friend of my mothers. Alarm bells should of rung when I turned up there and there were about 4 different aged litters all in a stable together but I believed my mum, and the guy showed me the mum and dad (apparently!).
My collie it turns out has bad hip displacia (diagnosed at aged 1 1/2). Vet said (1) its unusual for a collie to get it and (2) its unusual for a dog so younf to be diagnosed with it!
Its also come to light that she doesnt like kids and has taken to biting! Not the kids i hasten to add as I now keep her in the heated utility room whilst I am working (childminder working from home), couldn't take the risk.
She has bitten 5 people now...last 3 she drew blood, last one was the vet! So scared she is going to have to be put down. I spoke to border collie rescue and they suggested locking her up in an outside kennel all day whilst Im working...I can do that!
Dum thing is, each time she has bitten (apart from the vet) she was actually protecting the kids.

Really worried as apart from that she is an absolute angel. She is so well behaved (apart from chasing cars when we're out and then she suffers with her hips, keep her on an extending lead most of the time now but what sort of life is that for her!)

Dont know whether Im asking for advice or just want opinions...think it would just be nice to chat to like minded people.

Claire x


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2011)

I am guessing you saw no health tests from the parents?

The issue is that hip dysplasia isnt proven to be genetic as parents who have low hips for example 2/2 and 3/3 can throw a dog with 17/4. 

Have you kept the breeders details and have you spoken to the breeder about it since?


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## ladypegasus (Jan 28, 2011)

Hiya Shetland lover
Thanks for your reply. No I saw nothing from the 'breeder'. I dont even have any papers with her, just got told she is a 'purebred' so doesn't need them.
As for going back to the breeder...I came to the conclusion he is probally a puppy farm so i didn't want to go back to him.

I see your also an APH owner...huffy little bundles of joy lol x


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2011)

ladypegasus said:


> Hiya Shetland lover
> Thanks for your reply. No I saw nothing from the 'breeder'. I dont even have any papers with her, just got told she is a 'purebred' so doesn't need them.
> As for going back to the breeder...I came to the conclusion he is probally a puppy farm so i didn't want to go back to him.
> 
> I see your also an APH owner...huffy little bundles of joy lol x


They are very much so.:thumbup:

There are many breeders who breed a few breeds however if there are not papers then I would think its more than likely a pf.

What condition were the puppies in?


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## ladypegasus (Jan 28, 2011)

The puppies were all runnin around, round and fat as puppies should be. I must admit that I want a merle and had the choice of a red or a blue, my bf said the blue one is walking funny on her back legs but I said...thats just the way puppies walk!!! I was blinded by the fact that my last collies (tricolour) mum was a blue merle.
Love my collie to bits and wouldn't want to get rid of her (would devestate my kids) but guess I just wanted some advice.

Claire


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hello,

I'm sorry to hear about the problems you've been having.
How long have you had her?
Have you had her since she was a pup?
It does sound as though the breeders were BYB puppy farming types and certainly not at all responsible.  In any case that is in the past and unfortunately there isn't a huge amount you can do about that now.

Border Collies are incredibly sensitive dogs. Whilst there is a lot of variation within the breed, many suggest that some BCs especially those from strong working lines are not best adapted to urban life. There are a variety of reasons for this but the key factors I believe are the lack of socialisation many will receive during the primary socialization period (when with breeders or otherwise), the fact that their breeding has not needed to prioritize on a dog that is easily socialized (a working dog would not be exposed to lots of people during it's life. It might work the sheep a couple of times a week and remain on the farm the rest of the time, checking out and if necessary seeing off any people who ought not to be there) and finally of course the instinctive behaviours (and need to control movement) that makes the WSD such a master in their field of work.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Working BCs cannot live in urban environments. I'd be an awful hypocrite if I did as I own a BC from working lines and I wouldn't change him for the world 001_wub but I guess what I'm trying to say is that you need to work on understanding what comes in the WSD package and make sure you cater for their needs so that they can cope with, relax and enjoy urban life.

Anyway sorry I went on a bit of a tangent there 

There were a few key factors that jumped out at me from your post. I also have a few questions. 

You say that she dislikes (or is uncomfortable around) children. How does she show this? Do you have children yourself? How is she with your own children?

You say she has bitten and that each time (minus the vet) she was doing so to protect the kids? Can you elaborate? How?

Are you aware from what your vet said, whether her hip problems could be causing pain or discomfort either now or in the future? Is she on pain relief?

Because she has bitten and is obviously a very scared, stressed out girly I can only suggest that you focus on keeping her SAFE, so that she doesn't feel like she needs to protect herself. In the short term would continue to confine her to a part of the house. Leave her there whilst you have the children round with plenty of things to keep her stimulated and hopefully relaxed. Stuffed kongs are good, treat balls etc.

How often is she walked? She obviously needs to be walked daily. In order to keep her stress levels down in the short term I would suggest walking her at quiet times of day (early morning and late evening tends to be good) in quiet areas. If necessary you could always get her used to wearing a muzzle for her walks, so that you feel more relaxed walking her. To do this though, her having her muzzle on needs to become the best thing to ever happen to her. To achieve this we want to pair the muzzle with something brilliant and gradually desensitize her to having it on. 
See the following video for ideas:
YouTube - Muzzle Training

Does she get any mental stimulation (to keep her brain busy). This is sooooooooo important for BCs.

I would also suggest that long-term you look into some way that you can safely provide her with an outlet for her instinctive behaviour that will not be problematic with her hips? (this is something that you'd need to discuss with your behaviourist though :confused1

Long term, I highly suggest you contact a decent positive reinforcement behaviourist, preferably someone who understands and/or who has worked with collie types. They should help you with this girl and help identify the feared stimuli and triggers that she cannot cope with and help to establish a plan to counter-condition her emotional response to these triggers and hopefully help her to become a happier dog, who can cope with life a bit more.

The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors is a good way to go (you can search online for your local behaviourist)...
The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers are also fantastic:
Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

Do not listen to anyone who tells you she is dominant and needs putting in her place. They are talking rubbish and don't know what they are doing!

Best of luck with your girl and I hope this helped


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Hi

It isn't unusual for collies to have HD I'm afraid - I know many and they are usually diagnosed around 10-18 months. Swimming her at a hydrotherapy pool twice a week would be a great help but I don't know if you have one near you or if you have the time. Has your vet suggested operating?

With regards to her biting, have you considered consulting a behaviourist? This is a serious problem and difficult for any of us to offer advice without seeing the dog.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Don't know about KC registered collies, but I always believed HD is not a problem in ISDS registered BCs.

I have not been able to veryify this _and I will admit to being biased.

Does anyone have any hard evidence either way? I'd be really interested to know.

I don't have much to add to what has already been suggested, except to say that some collies are very sensitive and get easily stressed. You are a childminder and I guess your house is nice and lively! It may be severely stressing her. Is there a quiet area she can retreat to when the children arrive?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Don't know about KC registered collies, but I always believed HD is not a problem in ISDS registered BCs.
> 
> I have not been able to veryify this _and I will admit to being biased.
> 
> ...


I believe hip displasia is pretty common across the board in border collies. The working ones probably less so, as if they couldn't work, they wouldn't last long enough on a farm to be bred from - they'd be put down or rehomed via rescue. This dog must have a bad displasia for it to have been noticed as a young puppy. Surgery might help, and hydrotherapy could help too (though the only cases I know of making a real difference were in dogs whose hips weren't bad enough for it to show easily. One has gone on to compete at agility though.)
Collies don't take well to a stream of strangers - if you think about the farm situation where they originated, they had their own family and strangers were something they had to guard the farm from as part of their job. They also have the herding instinct that the sort of fast movements children make triggers. Just as collies often nip the livestock to get it moving, children make ideal substitutesfor them to herd, with possibly serious results. Your dog needs a quiet refuge. The pain/discomfort from the hip problem will likely make her more touchy, and maybe fear being touched.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi sorry to hear of all the probs you are having with your dog, i cant give any advice on them but just wanted to say, be very careful of your dog around the children you chilmind,as a registered childminder you could lose you childminding license due to the fact you own a dog that has already bitten other people.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> I believe hip displasia is pretty common across the board in border collies


Burrowzig. Do you know this, or is this merely your opinion?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I believe hip displasia is pretty common across the board in border collies.





Old Shep said:


> Burrowzig. Do you know this, or is this merely your opinion?


I think this is probably Burrowzig's opinion rather than actual fact. The BVS mean hip score for border collies is only 13 - quite low really.

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Breed_Specific_Statistics.pdf


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Don't know about KC registered collies, but I always believed HD is not a problem in ISDS registered BCs.
> 
> I have not been able to veryify this _and I will admit to being biased.
> 
> Does anyone have any hard evidence either way? I'd be really interested to know.


Putting to one side the fact that hip dysplasia can and does occur in any breed, I don't think it is a particular breed problem for border collies at all - in fact as a breed the average hip scores are better than most.

As for the difference betewen ISDS registered border collies and KC registered border collies, have a look at the BVS hip scores up to 2010. The Breed Mean Score (which is the mean of all border collies tested - ie KC registered and ISDS registered) is 13. The Breed Median Score (which is data collected solely from the KC's electronic register - ie KC registered border collies only) is 11. That would lead me to believe that KC registered collies are slightly less likely to be at risk from hip dysplasia than ISDS registered collies, even allowing for the difference in meaning between "mean" and "median".

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Breed_Specific_Statistics.pdf


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Keep the dog away from situations that will cause her to feel insecure and feel the need to defend her territory and defend the kids. Otherwise your dog could get into a situation where she will be forcibly put down and it will all be outwith your control.
At the moment you have control as to who is presented to your dog, so make sure she doesn't get into trouble in the first place.
She is not a normal dog, and never will be without vast training which may or may not be successful, so don't treat her as one. You are now responsible for her safety, so either put her away or muzzle her when strangers call and always keep a close eye on her.

Having bitten 5 people she is at great risk of being put down, if you yourself don't make a positive stand to protect her from biting any more.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Here's a stat for all you HD fans out there.

1 Working collie from previous championship lines - relatively bad HD.

1 collie from puppy farm/petshop - severe HD.

Gotta love it. Haven't you?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Here's a stat for all you HD fans out there.
> 
> 1 Working collie from previous championship lines - relatively bad HD.
> 
> ...


There's aways one 

Seriously though, your post is a good reminder that whatever the statistics say, they _are_ only an average and, even for a breed with a relatively low mean hip score, you are still going to get animals who suffer from hip dysplsia.

Hope your two aren't suffering too much hun xx


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Burrowzig. Do you know this, or is this merely your opinion?


Just opinion. Based on the numbers I meet who have problems to some extent or other. The vast majority I come across are fine, but as I'm in agility that's what you'd expect, as seriously hip displasia affected dogs wouldn't be doing it. I know more affected collies than labs and goldies, pro rata.

What I was trying to say was that I don't think hip displasia is more or less common between KC and ISDS registered dogs.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sorry, spellweaver, but why are the there only stats for the median score only taken from KC collies, while the mean is from KC and ISDS combined?

Again, I am biased and this is not facual and merely opinion, but I have discussed this matter with ISDS office and I was told that HD was not a particular problem in BCs (they were talking about ISDS registered ones, obviously)
Thanks for the reply, burrowzig. I'm involved in agility, too and actually haven't come accross any competing collies with HD--though that's what you would expect: lol!
I have a suspicion, though, that agility is generally not good for dogs' joints :-(


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm so sorry that you are having all this trouble with your dog. Is she is on pain meds?

I am also rather concerned about the situation. There have been several bites and there is evidence to suggest that her bite inhibition is worsening ie she is now drawing blood.

I am also dismayed that your vet has not referred you for behaviour consultation especially considering your home business.

I think that urgently you need to talk to your vet or another about a FULL medical evaluation to include bloods, uring analysis and physical. Then with this info get a behaviour consult referral for an APBC behaviourist so that a behavioural eval can be carried out.

This will give you a lot more information and help with decisions and moving forward. Best of luck & welcome to the forum


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Any update OP? How is your collie girl doing?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have been involved with collies (dont own any just now) for 40 years. I had understood at that time that collies did not suffer from HD but one bred by a friend, trials breeding but bred for obedience, had very bad HD that was diagnosed at an early age. Apparently it was of great interest to the ISDS as it had been unheard of. A few years later I had a farm bred rescue bitch that had HD. We operated on her, cutting the pectineal muscle, and she was jumping and moving freely before the stitches were out. I cant understand why that op didnt take off. It is totally non invasive and so long as it is done before arthritis sets in it has wonderful results. If it doesnt work the dog has only had to put up with very minor surgery so I would have thought it well worth doing.

On the subject of the biting, I would be very very wary of keeping a nipping collie in a house where I was childminding. And I certainly would not feel it fair to shut it in a shed or kennel all day either.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Sorry, spellweaver, but why are the there only stats for the median score only taken from KC collies, while the mean is from KC and ISDS combined?Again, I am biased and this is not facual and merely opinion, but I have discussed this matter with ISDS office and I was told that HD was not a particular problem in BCs (they were talking about ISDS registered ones, obviously)
> Thanks for the reply, burrowzig. I'm involved in agility, too and actually haven't come accross any competing collies with HD--though that's what you would expect: lol!
> I have a suspicion, though, that agility is generally not good for dogs' joints :-(


I've no idea - I'm just repeating what it says on the link from the BVA (scroll down to the bottom on the link I gave you) - perhaps you ought to take it up with the BVA?


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