# Citronella collars- Your views please??



## janetmk (Sep 29, 2011)

Hi, 

Has anyone used one of these collars successfully. We have a 'barker' it isnt persistent but is LOUD. He will bark through excitement, at other dogs/ cats and even when we leave the room at times. Will one of thesecollars help him to learn not to bark and eventually can you stop using them?? 

Advice please? 

Janet


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

Hmmm, I have to say I don't like the idea of them & would not use one myself. A dog's sense of smell is very sensitive, I would feel unkind using one of these & would try alternative methods


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I have a friend who tried one for their dog who barked... it made him worse.

For a citronella collar to be successful you have to cause the citronella to be unpleasant, for this people put lemon juice under the front lip of the dog (inside) and hold it there, that way the dog relates the unpleasantness of the experience with the smell of citron juice. 

However if you have a barky dog - as I have. Teach him to "speak" and then teach him "quiet" 

To teach speak - get him riled up and say "speak" when he barks reward him for it. And repeat until you can ask him at any random time "speak" and he will speak to you..

To teach quiet, wait until he is barking naturally and wait for 3 seconds of quiet and reward for quiet "good quiet" and a treat..

It is important to teach both but you can teach just quiet. It may take some time, but you should be able to get him to shush, just by saying quiet and rewarding him for being quiet when he immediately stops barking..

HTH


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Whats your actual social situation with this, I mean are you getting warnings or something?


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

I don't like them and would never use one. Im taking my dog to a training class(positive methods) to hopefully curb his barking at other dogs.


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## janetmk (Sep 29, 2011)

Hi, no we are not getting warnings but I am very conscious of the volume. We have been trying the quiet and giving him treats and I know I need to persist but the whole treat thing can make him more excited and instigate more barking. Also he barks when I try to leave the room so if I then say quiet and give him a treat then he barks again for me to come backhand do it again perhaps ??? Not convinced I am getting this right. Both my new dogs went to their first class last night so we will be working on it that way too 

Thanks for the advice so far


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> the whole treat thing can make him more excited and instigate more barking.
> |
> when I try to leave the room so if I then say quiet and give him a treat then he barks again for me to come backhand do it again perhaps
> |
> Not convinced I am getting this right.


He's having a ball, he's learned if he barks he gets a treat. Your just reinforcing it & it will tend to repeat, each repeat strengthens habit formation. The habit it's formed is that if you hear your dog bark you give a treat, you need to break your habit, he's just responding to it.

What might be more interesting is, have you any idea as to the early origins of repeated barking starting? Did you do this treat thing at the beginning?


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

janetmk said:


> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone used one of these collars successfully. We have a 'barker' it isnt persistent but is LOUD. He will bark through excitement, at other dogs/ cats and even when we leave the room at times. Will one of thesecollars help him to learn not to bark and eventually can you stop using them??
> 
> ...


I wouldn't touch these collars with a barge pole. Generally used and promoted by supposed "trainers" who think that training dogs is as simple as putting a collar on them and zapping them when undesirable behaviour happens.

Behaviour and reinforcement is more complicated than that. If you want to reduce or make a behaviour extinct you need to take away the reinforcement (the thing that reinforces the behaviour and makes it more likely to happen). Dealing only with aversives and punishers does nothing to establish why the dog is barking (so the dog still has reason to bark)- only thing is every time they communicate they get zapped/sprayed. Stressful for the dog. Rubbish situ to be in!

Let's get down to specifics when you say he barks at other dogs/cats:

Is this at home (from the window)- how close do they get before he barks?
Is it on walks? How does he interact with dogs generally? How close/in what situation on a walk will he bark?

When you leave the room-
what are specific factors/environmental variables that contribute and thus trigger the barking behaviour.

Overall (but also situation dependant)- 
Why is the dog barking? Is it stress? Is it excitement/overarousal? Is it fear?
Is it frustration?

These are all questions you need to ask yourself and possibly get a decent trainer to think through with you (someone who can read the behaviour well).

It's alot more complex than just popping a spray collar on them I'm afraid.

They're not machines


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Agree with others; I'd never use one.

The problem also is that even when he has stopped barking he will covered in citronella making it very unpleasant for him


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Many years ago I knew someone who had a collie, barked at the slightest thing so they tried the citronella collar, within a week, the dog learned to bark non-stop, which emptied the reservoir filled with the stinky stuff, and then continue barking as usual.

Had no success with this dog at all with barking.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Will one of these collars help him to learn not to bark and eventually can you stop using them??
> Advice please?


So, to answere your main question.

The last time I got some feedback from a large retailer on their success rate as suggested by sales & product return figures was around 3 years ago, so fairly recent collars. The returns for refunds was 27%, the main 3 reasons were - did not work - broke down-did not like product.

So quite a high return rate, but, in the full context they had 70% success, that seems to be similar to the science study abstract below. So again in the full context how successful are other methods in comparison?

As regards the science on them, below is the abstract & link to one. If the abstract is simplified it tends to suggest the same as the indications above, the work more than not work but around 30% of dogs they are used on they don't. So to contextualise that you need to asses it against other methods.

Science Direct
_The effectiveness of a citronella spray collar in reducing certain forms of barking in dogs_ Deborah L Wells

Canine Behaviour Centre, School of Psychology, The Queen's University of Belfast, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland, UK
Accepted 28 February 2001. Available online 26 June 2001.

*Abstract*
_This study examined the effectiveness of a citronella spay collar in reducing barking in 30 dogs which wore the collar continuously, i.e. every day for 30 min, or intermittently, i.e. every other day for 30 min, for a period of 3 weeks. Owners rated the frequency of their dog 's barking on a scale ranging from 1 (very infrequent) to 5 (very frequent) before the study began (pre-treatment condition) and at the end of every week that the collar was worn (treatment condition). A further evaluation was made at the end of week 4, following 7 days of collar deprivation (post-treatment condition). Dogs exhibited a significantly lower frequency of barking during the treatment and post-treatment conditions compared to the pre-treatment condition. Barking was most effectively reduced when dogs wore the collar intermittently. However, barking increased over the period of time the collar was worn, particularly in those dogs which wore the device every day. Barking continued to increase when the dogs stopped wearing the collar, albeit at frequencies lower than pre-treatment, particularly in those animals which had worn the collar continuously. The collar was more effective at reducing travel related barking than television or traffic related barking . Findings indicate that dogs generally habituate to the citronella spray collar irrespective of how the animal is exposed to the device. A longer period of efficacy occurs, however, if the collar is worn intermittently. This may appeal to owners who are concerned about their pet having to wear the collar for long periods of time._

Keywords: Barking ; Behaviour problems; Citronella spray collar; Dog; Human-animal relationships

ScienceDirect - Search Results: ALL(dogs barking citronella collars)

.


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## janetmk (Sep 29, 2011)

We have only been doing the treat thing for a week and only after he is quiet. He barks for all sorts of reasons in my opinion ... Separation , excitement etc. I am not going to get a collar but should I be getting him to quiet then giving him a treat or not ? Now I am cOnfused ?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The citronella collars have had mixed effects, but it is due to these mixed effects that I wouldn't bother with one. There is nothing conclusive on them- it is not a yes or no answer. 

Reading about the situations in which your dog is barking implies that your dog may have a number of stress/anxiety issues. 

I would use his daily meal food and some other nice treats like chicken (reducing his meal food if you do to account for this extra) and keep it on you in a treat bag. Start to positively associate you leaving the front room, and the sight of other dogs and cats with being rewarded with food. For example, whilst in the same room as your dog, stand up, walk towards the door, reward lavishly, then sit down and repeat numerous times. Then progress to opening the door, and reward again, repeat a number of times. Then open the door, walk out, then back in, reward, sit down, and repeat. 

You are re-creating the situation he usually barks in but doing it incrementally, and associating the situation with something enjoyable. The same should be done around other dogs and cats: he notices one, he immediately gets rewarded; he looks back at the animal, he immediately gets rewarded. Soon, he'll be looking at you as soon as he sees another dog or cat. This is re-conditioning him to not feel stressed or anxious, but 'happy' in these contexts, as good things occur for him and he has a replacement, less stressful behaviour to engage in.


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## dickybirdclocks (Mar 24, 2011)

Does not have to be citron as reservoir can be filled with unscented spray i know i have one. Far too many know alls very quick to condem anothers actions on here and many other forums .Different solutions are to be found for many problems . The collars i have seen and also use have tonal functions as well as spray ,i have found that the tone warning is enough on most occasions once the pet gets used to it and the spray action if they push it a bit as they can sometimes do .My boy spends the majority of the time without the collar but sometimes does need it as part of his ongoing training ,the fact that his behaviour improves markedly once wearing the spray collar speaks volumes then if he does happen to be a little naughty a tone warning is usually enough to remind him to behave and very rarely he pushes the boundaries needing a squirt and that also tends to remind him to behave . I love my dog as though he was my son and would never do anything to harm him i also use a crate as his sleeping place and also for when he is in the house alone , some would consider this cruel also but let them .


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

dickybirdclocks said:


> Does not have to be citron as reservoir can be filled with unscented spray i know i have one. Far too many know alls very quick to condem anothers actions on here and many other forums .Different solutions are to be found for many problems . The collars i have seen and also use have tonal functions as well as spray ,i have found that the tone warning is enough on most occasions once the pet gets used to it and the spray action if they push it a bit as they can sometimes do .My boy spends the majority of the time without the collar but sometimes does need it as part of his ongoing training ,the fact that his behaviour improves markedly once wearing the spray collar speaks volumes then if he does happen to be a little naughty a tone warning is usually enough to remind him to behave and very rarely he pushes the boundaries needing a squirt and that also tends to remind him to behave . I love my dog as though he was my son and would never do anything to harm him i also use a crate as his sleeping place and also for when he is in the house alone , some would consider this cruel also but let them .


The point is, with looking at results, I think we can get better results by not using the collar. I would be worried about the detrimental effects in the long run, rather than the short term benefits.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I would be worried about the detrimental effects in the long run, rather than the short term benefits.


If I were a commercial behaviourist or trainer selling the idea hire me & I'll stop the barking, I would be worried that every succesfull use of one of these collars I loose work & then the blighters who use them tell others they work for a one off payment!

THEN WHAT EH??? all behaviourists and traners are out of work cause we don't do refunds or guarantees. These darn contraptions are covered under the sale of goods & services act if they don't work pet owners get refunds.

Naaa, if I were a behaviourist or trainer selling my services to stop barking I would sit down and worry myself to tears that these darn products are loosing what should be my money, darn things, at this rate I'll be back running a market stall again. Anyway they're cruel, so there dont use em, buy me for a day...or 5! it might work, if not sorry, but, no refunds.

Things are bad enough already without cutting out the middleman/woman.....modernisation of training...phaa

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...-industry-update-apdt-loose-more-members.html

.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I would be worried about the detrimental effects in the long run


You worry to much, here watch a little on topic documentary film on animals reactions to aversive stimuli, it should calm you're worries, these collars are aversives. Skinner named the behaviours seen in the film as 'aversive control'.

Dogs Learned & Unlearned Behavioural Responses To Physical Aversive Stimuli - YouTube

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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

janetmk said:


> Hi, no we are not getting warnings but I am very conscious of the volume. We have been trying the quiet and giving him treats and I know I need to persist but *the whole treat thing can make him more excited and instigate more barking*. Also he barks when I try to leave the room so if I then say quiet and give him a treat then he barks again for me to come backhand do it again perhaps ??? Not convinced I am getting this right. Both my new dogs went to their first class last night so we will be working on it that way too
> 
> Thanks for the advice so far


This is why you need to teach Speak first.

I guess that he's worked out that barking = quiet cue = treat, so he'll bark and be quiet after - so really you've taught him speak. With this training YOUR timing needs to be PERFECT! IMO you haven't been waiting long enough between the quiet command and the treat. If you start off with 3 hippopotamuses then work your way up to 5 and so on and so forth then he should get it. Pay him no eye contact and if he starts barking between the hippos then turn your back and ignore him.

Similarly if you go out of a room and he is barking, then you wait until he has completely stopped before you go back in... Otherwise you teach him that barking = response/reward from you. You need to be consistent or he'll never learn.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

janetmk said:


> We have only been doing the treat thing for a week and only after he is quiet. He barks for all sorts of reasons in my opinion ... Separation , excitement etc. I am not going to get a collar but should I be getting him to quiet then giving him a treat or not ? Now I am cOnfused ?


Would you like me to video my dog doing the speak and quiet exercise so you can see? He's in the stages of learning - because I don't have in laws who practice it, it takes me ages to get him to learn new things and get those things to stick..


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Would you like me to video my dog doing the speak and quiet exercise so you can see?


It's always a good idea to put edu vids up on youtube, people can understand more in one or 2 veiwings than months writing diffent variations of a method, which they still might not get, vids 'say it all' - in one.


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## janetmk (Sep 29, 2011)

SLB- yes I would love to see your video. Any hel appreciated. Many thanks to all


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

janetmk said:


> SLB- yes I would love to see your video. Any hel appreciated. Many thanks to all


Ok, will get on it as soon as I get some batteries - so probably tonight.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

We used one on my show greyhound William (R I P) as the neighbours complained he barked when we weren't in. It worked at first but then he discovered if he shook it would move the collar around and set the spray off. Once the container was empty he could bark as much as he wanted.

We tried the teaching him to bark on command then quiet but he was not the most intelligent dog in the world (should read as thick as 2 short planks) and it just didn't work. We never sorted the problem out and we lost him 18 months ago he was still a barker. No one could give us any advsie on what to do next with him.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

dickybirdclocks said:


> Does not have to be citron as reservoir can be filled with unscented spray i know i have one. Far too many know alls very quick to condem anothers actions on here and many other forums .Different solutions are to be found for many problems . The collars i have seen and also use have tonal functions as well as spray ,i have found that the tone warning is enough on most occasions once the pet gets used to it and the spray action if they push it a bit as they can sometimes do .My boy spends the majority of the time without the collar but sometimes does need it as part of his ongoing training ,the fact that his behaviour improves markedly once wearing the spray collar speaks volumes then if he does happen to be a little naughty a tone warning is usually enough to remind him to behave and very rarely he pushes the boundaries needing a squirt and that also tends to remind him to behave . I love my dog as though he was my son and would never do anything to harm him i also use a crate as his sleeping place and also for when he is in the house alone , some would consider this cruel also but let them .


Here, here.

I have used a spray collar although it was not filled with citronella. As the above poster states mine also has three settings; a warning beep, a short spray and a longer spray. I always used the warning beep before the spray, and that meant in time my dogs learnt that the beep meant to stop so the spray wasn't often used, but it was there as a fall back if needed.

They worked for us and the undesirable behaviours I was targeting are now either completely eradicated or occur once in a blue moon instead of every day.

As with all training devices you need to know how to use it correctly for it to work, and different techniques work for different dogs in different ways.


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## dickybirdclocks (Mar 24, 2011)

Exactly "Grace Lily" far to many jump in with both feet and talk nonsense ,Each problem can have varied solutions and what works with one dog may not work with another but the spray collar is an excellent aid for some dogs and owners the staticaid i feel could also be very useful the one that gives a mild electric stimulation .


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

dickybirdclocks said:


> Exactly "Grace Lily" far to many jump in with both feet and talk nonsense ,Each problem can have varied solutions and what works with one dog may not work with another but the spray collar is an excellent aid for some dogs and owners the staticaid i feel could also be very useful the one that gives a mild electric stimulation .


I don't agree, I would always put training before the use of tools.

I taught my eldest to walk properly using reward based training and when that failed (with one - not due to the training, however the people he lives with in the week could do with more training on consistency) we used tools such as halti's and dogmatics.

The cart before the horse and all that..


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Here is Benjie - Camera kept cutting out, but I managed to get him to shush up for a few seconds and got a speak on command (verbal and sign) at the end..

Sorry it's not brill.. click on photo to play..


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I taught my eldest to walk properly using reward based training.


Great you did so well, I am sooo pleased.



> and when that failed


Stupid, stupid, stupid SleepyBones, spoke to soon, no teaching took place, it failed.



> we used tools such as halti's and dogmatics.


Ahh well, says it all.....

*Haltie research abstract*

Research has shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head collars are different, all dogs in the pilot study show severe stress reactions to all the head collars.
Study findings below:

_"The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart.

Group 1
included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.

Group 2 
included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground. 
No statistical difference was observed between dogs' reactions to the head collar types.
Based on this study, there does not appear to be an increased acceptance of one head collar type over another.
There were no long term follow ups so long term consequences are unknown."

Head collars used - Gentle Leader, Haltie, Snoop Loop & Response._

Ref: 
Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars, Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61
L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb

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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> Great you did so well, I am sooo pleased.
> 
> Stupid, stupid, stupid SleepyBones, spoke to soon, no teaching took place, it failed.
> 
> ...


It depends on how you introduce it, Benjie was introduced slowly and in a positive manner - he has never rejected the halti/dogmatic since they were being used..

All this is irrelevant, my point was that you teach a dog before adding tools to help you. But again - that was my opinion - tear it apart all you like - it is what I believe is better..


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

...I am a bit of a learner dog owner so don't know much to help you... But my neighbour used these on her two mini schnauzers... They still bark tons and one kept getting squirted whilst the other one was barking which seemed unfair to me.
Naomi x


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> If I were a commercial behaviourist or trainer selling the idea hire me & I'll stop the barking, I would be worried that every succesfull use of one of these collars I loose work & then the blighters who use them tell others they work for a one off payment!
> 
> THEN WHAT EH??? all behaviourists and traners are out of work cause we don't do refunds or guarantees. These darn contraptions are covered under the sale of goods & services act if they don't work pet owners get refunds.
> 
> ...


Have you not got anything original to say...ever? I can't count how many times I've read the same post from you over, and over, and over, and over. You are generalising here; it's wrong.



SleepyBones said:


> You worry to much, here watch a little on topic documentary film on animals reactions to aversive stimuli, it should calm you're worries, these collars are aversives. Skinner named the behaviours seen in the film as 'aversive control'.
> 
> Dogs Learned & Unlearned Behavioural Responses To Physical Aversive Stimuli - YouTube
> 
> .


Naturally occurring aversive stimuli are just that- natural. But we are human beings, with much better ways of controlling behaviour. I do not think that using aversive training methods is the way forward. Especially with a barking dog. The behavioural fallout has been seen time and time again, this is why I don't advise buying this collar.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

_Have you not got anything original to say...ever? I can't count how many times I've read the same post from you over, and over, and over, and over_

Enjoy!


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> The *behavioural fallout* has been seen time and time again,


Do you mean there are scientific studies showing fall out? which studies?

Or do you mean you sit around watching dogs stop barking when one goes off and then you watch the dog keel over dead? how many have you counted that have died, or whatever you mean with the mysterious terminolgy you used, when they get a spray?

Ya'no....I notice you never mention the dog below which was killed in an APBC 'treatment' programm, I wonder why you never mentioned that poor dead dogs cause of death :confused1:

APBC, David Ryan Admits Dog Killed By 'Association Of Pet Behaviour Counsellors - YouTube

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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I'm old, What the hell is a 'Citronella collar. I'm guessing it's some new fangled device to stop a dog barking,
When we have a ' Vocal youngster' on our shoot we generally cure him / her in about an hour or so with a squeegy bottle of clean water. Unwarranted bark, squirt of water. It's effective, does no harm, and doesn't cost what I expect a citronella costs.
As I said, I'm an old fart. but sometimes the old methods work. Oh, andin case you think I'm ''Cruel'' Have a look at my dogs as shown in my album. They really look abused.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

My view for what it's worth. Citronella collars work by spraying somehting so unpleasant that your dog associates an action with an unpleasant experience.

Why not train for the positive instead? Just a thought.


For what it's worth, I would never use a citronella collar on my dogs, I count them as effective as e-collars in the hands of folks who don't understand them.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> What the hell is a 'Citronella collar. I'm guessing it's some new fangled device to stop a dog barking,
> When we have a ' Vocal youngster' on our shoot we generally cure him / her in about an hour or so with a squeegy bottle of clean water. Unwarranted bark, squirt of water. It's effective, does no harm, and doesn't cost what I expect a citronella costs.


I think they first came here in late 1980's or early 90's. They are the same as your water squirting except they are on a collar so the timeing is more accurate and you can use them when your absent if the dogs upsetting neighbours when your out.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> I think they first came here in late 1980's or early 90's. They are the same as your water squirting except they are on a collar so the timeing is more accurate and you can use them when your absent if the dogs upsetting neighbours when your out.


You can't use them when you're absent, you can only set a limitation. You can't explain to your dog, I'm in but deep in thought, or I'm out, so keep quiet, you just use it the same as you would an ecollar??


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> You can't use them when you're absent,


I think you mean the masterplus but the OP's talking about a barking prob, thats the abiostop & you can leave those on in your abscence, well I assume so thats really the main point of them.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

springerpete said:


> You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I'm old, What the hell is a 'Citronella collar. I'm guessing it's some new fangled device to stop a dog barking,
> When we have a ' Vocal youngster' on our shoot we generally cure him / her in about an hour or so with a squeegy bottle of clean water. Unwarranted bark, squirt of water. It's effective, does no harm, and doesn't cost what I expect a citronella costs.
> As I said, I'm an old fart. but sometimes the old methods work. Oh, andin case you think I'm ''Cruel'' Have a look at my dogs as shown in my album. They really look abused.


See - I don't agree with spraying water - as I have 3 sensitive dogs, but it does work. However it does work and it is in my opinion the lesser of two evils when it is put up against both the citronella and the e - collar. 
For the Citronella to be effective - as I have said - the dog has to learn to hate the smell. If you read David Ryan's "Stop, how to stop predatory chasing in dogs" at the end, for the desperate people who have not managed to get their dogs to stop by means of the other methods he puts in the book, he explains how to use a citronella collar and also how to make it so it only needs to be used once or in the case of persistent dogs - a handful of times. I have said earlier in the thread, this is done by soaking something in lemon juice and putting it in the dogs mouth between the front teeth and the lip - this then gets remembered by the dog as an unpleasant experience - thus making it more effective.

But positive training IMO should always be used first, aversives as an extreme last.. In the case of the OP - the dog is barking in excitement. She doesn't want the dog to not get excited - just not with the voice. So citronella collars or water sprays wouldn't work as it won't teach the dog, it'll just punish it. 
Like Benjie - he'd go nuts at the sight/sound of his lead being picked up. So we picked it up and put it down whenever he got too giddy. He has learn't that there is a degree of calm he has to achieve and maintain before we go out the door... this was done with repetition not punishment. I was a good hour before we got out the door, but patience is better than a quick fix..

Sorry I have rambled..


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## dickybirdclocks (Mar 24, 2011)

Again we seem to have uncivil conversation with one thinking they have the answer and others are ignorant .Let me tell you one problem can have many solutions and what works with one dog may not work with another please remember dogs like humans are individuals .The collars have several names - spray commander is but one ,they come in different varieties i have had a rechargeable with a 275metre range remote control and a normal battery version with 75metre range remote control , they both have tonal and spray functions and are refillable with spray liquid .A non scented version and a citrus hence citronella - the amount of liquid sprayed is minute and it is more the noise of being sprayed that does the trick .


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Has anyone used one of these collars successfully. We have a 'barker' it isnt persistent but is LOUD. He will bark through excitement, at other dogs/ cats and even when we leave the room at times. *Will one of thesecollars help him to learn not to bark*and eventually can you stop using them??
> Advice please? Janet


*Janetmk* There's confusion about what you mean or want.

In case you don't know, there are 2 types of these collars. One is a training collar, of sorts, for trying to stop things like running off, chasing etc, they have a handheld transmitter which is operated by the owner by pressing a button when they deem fit.

The other is an anti bark collar, they are not human activated they are automatic, they have a vibration detector built in, when the dog barks the collar goes off automaticaly without human assistance.

I though you were originaly talking about anti bark collars, others seem to think your talking about remote trainers as they are now on subject.

Below is the original video instructions of the masterplus remote trainer (thats a make i.e. Dynavet product) but I havent found one of the anti bark vids, Im pushed for time though, so, which of those two types do you mean?

The Masterplus, Dogs Trust Approved Fear Training By Collar - - YouTube

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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

janetmk said:


> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone used one of these collars successfully. We have a 'barker' it isnt persistent but is LOUD. He will bark through excitement, at other dogs/ cats and even when we leave the room at times. Will one of thesecollars help him to learn not to bark and eventually can you stop using them??
> 
> ...


Can I ask how old your dog is? Dog's bark, its a fact of life, if you have a dog then I can guarantee that at some point it will bark. Barking through excitement is not usually a problem, dogs don't spend 100% of their time in an excited state and the odd bark here and there isn't going to upset anyone. However, if it does become persistent and for no apparent reason it can cause problems. If that is the case then it is time to do something about it. What to do exactly is the big question, but if you are considering a citronella collar, then you need to decide if this a route you are willing to take.

_(Takes deep breath and tries to remain objective so please forgive the over-simplification)
_
There are two ways to train a dog to do something, you can either reward it for doing what you want/not doing what you don't want *or* you can punish it for not doing what you want/doing what you don't want. Or to make it even more simple, you can reward good behaviour or you can punish bad behaviour. Rewards and punishments can both vary but basically a reward is anything that your dog wants and a punishment is anything that he doesn't want. A reward could be food or it could just be a tummy rub, a punishment could be a stern look or it could be physical pain.

Reward based training can sometimes take longer, but won't produce adverse effects if you get it wrong. Punishment based training can work very quickly, but requires some skill to make sure that you are giving the right message at the right time< if you don't then you can make the problem worse or even escalate it into something else.

So the question remains, which one works? Well, the honest truth is that they both do, but, and this is the whole crux of the argument, one of these methods relies on you using fear, intimidation or even physical pain to get the desired result, while the other one doesn't. Be under no illusions, a squirt of any kind of liquid to a dogs face is an extremely unpleasant experience for them, it has to be otherwise the training just wouldn't work. Exactly how effective it is depends on the dog, if the dog can tolerate the spray and isn't that bothered by it then it is unlikely to be effective, if they absolutely hate it then it will probably work quite quickly.

I have tried to write this without bias so that the OP can make their own decision but obviously there is a lot more to it than I have time to detail here. Whenever people ask me about this I always compare it to corporal punishment in schools. When I was at school you could get the cane if you were naughty enough and unpleasant as it was, it worked well enough for me to only ever have it once, lesson learned, job done, thank you very much. In today's society, such an act would be considered child abuse.

Personally I don't see it as a question of which method is faster or more effective, I see it as a question of what is right and what is wrong.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I give up - seems good old fashioned training has gone out the window for new fangled technology that has more faults than you can shake a stick at. (Wait I'm 19 aren't I supposed to like all this new fancy technology that gets me a quick fix and I don't have to do any of the work!? 

1. they're aversive - not a way to treat a dog IMO.

2. your dog relates a negative relationship with you and the collar, your the one pouring liquid in, your the one putting it around the dogs neck, so when it gets excited - it gets sprayed with some horrible stuff..

3. if they work through vibration - any vibration close enough to the collar could set it off.. for example - your dogs head is on the floor - he's resting and you walk by - does it or does it not cause vibration in the ground..

4. it just stops your dog from barking - it doesn't teach them to be calm.

5. not teaching your dog to be calm can cause other bad behaviours, I've seen dogs that have had collars on (e and spray) and when the leash comes out instead of barking, they spin round, snapping at the air..

The disadvantages of training..

There is none. 
It may take time - but you are teaching your dog, you are bonding with your dog, your dog is enjoying the company it has. 
You may lose your rag - but everyone does - sit down, have a cuppa and then get on with it, Rome wasn't built in a day.
Your dog might not learn - you're teaching it wrong.. I couldn't get a result (for something else) with a treat so I used a ball instead.. results!
Your neighbours complain - you ask them politely if they wouldn't mind the noise for a while, you are training him to be quiet on command so it'll stop his barking and your shouting etc and buy them a box of celebrations or some wine when you've succeeded..

I think though - I didn't mention it and I'm sure no one else has, but this excitement barking could be due to him being bored (unless he is a breed known for it's vocal-ness). He could just be bored and when something exciting happens he can't contain himself to just a tail wag.. A game of find the treat in the garden or in the house once/twice a day should help with this..


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> one of these methods relies on *you* using fear


No, in the behaviour learning theory thats incorrect.

If an animal perceives any unwanted consequence of a behaviour is a consequence of that behaviour, it learns its own behaviour is the cause of the unwanted cosequence. There's hundreds of things I am frightened of so I avoid the behaviours which would cause me those fears e.g. voluntary birth control is avoiding the fear of unwanted pregnancy, I have a fear of heights, I would avoid a trip up the Eiffel tower.

We learn what frightens us and we behave in ways to avoid the contingencies which cause the cause the fear, so the dog, the parrot & the human avoid the behaviours which have fear as a consequence. Learned avoidance behaviours are operative throughout everyones normal day, its usually called maintaining the quality of life & a relaxed trouble free mind, applies to all animals capable of learniing something. All the fears we are aware of are learned by experiencing fear & so we learn to avoid it.
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> any vibration close enough to the collar could set it off..


Yes, certainly with the Dynavet products thats the case as well as noises & other dogs barking bumps & bangs or the vibration of running etc, don't know about other brands.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

> one of these methods relies on you using fear





SleepyBones said:


> No, in the behaviour learning theory thats incorrect.


Do not try and bury this in semantics.



> If an animal perceives any unwanted consequence of a behaviour is a consequence of that behaviour, it learns its own behaviour is the cause of the unwanted cosequence.


Lets get this clear, sticking with the original subject, dog barks, which triggers the collar and pups gets a shot of nasty citronella in the mush. Dog learns to associate barking with getting a spray and therefore avoids the behaviour (barking) that causes the unwanted consequence. So you are saying that the dog then perceives his own bark as the source of the punishment, yes? The dog then trains himself, yes?

OK, I can see how he could come to that assumption and I can see how it would work as you describe. If you read all of my post I do say that this kind of training does work.

But answer me one simple question, honestly please, despite whatever the dogs perception may be, what is the real source of the punishment? Where does it come from? What is the true cause?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> *Haltie research abstract*
> 
> Research has shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head collars are different, all dogs in the pilot study show severe stress reactions to all the head collars.
> Study findings below:
> ...


Don't really see what this proves - with some pups you can get very similar reactions to first time with a normal collar and lead if you left that for 2 weeks before trying again for 10 minutes you would probably end up with a dog you couldn't walk on a lead :confused1:

My dog rubs his face on the sofa and rolls around on the lawn after he's had his dinner - does that mean he is severely stressed by his food :sad:


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Personally I wouldn't use one just don't think its very nice. I am lucky that Dougie rarely barks but previous dog was incessant barker (in the house not outside) its just the way he was and we had to learn to live with it. Luckily detached house so didn't have neighbours to worry out just drove you a bit potty at times


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh I forgot an advantage of your dog knowing the Speak and Quiet command. 

When you have neighbours like mine who have their lawn cut at 7am, building work done at 6am and a 23 year old daughter who loves to have her friends round and shout at each other despite being in the same room..

3am - Speak command and cheese at the ready - screw you neighbours :lol: I quite like my sleep thank you very much


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## dickybirdclocks (Mar 24, 2011)

The anti spray collar brigade seem to be suggesting in the main that us users are cruel ignorant souls - Think what you like i was advised to use spray collar by one of the countries leading dog experts so think your opinions fall in to the insignificant bracket .For the record i would bring back corporal and capital punishment .


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

dickybirdclocks said:


> The anti spray collar brigade seem to be suggesting in the main that us users are cruel ignorant souls - Think what you like i was advised to use spray collar by one of the countries leading dog experts so think your opinions fall in to the insignificant bracket .For the record i would bring back corporal and capital punishment .


Well to the OP - the opinions gave and the answers and questions asked and given don't fall into the insignificant category now do they? If she chooses to use a spray collar then good luck to her, I don't see why she should when a couple of weeks of training (which = bonding, fun and mental stimulation for her dog) would work better than spending all that money for something that is not guaranteed to work. Many of us have given accounts where it doesn't work. I haven't yet seen one that supports that they do work, and none of us has said/given stories of where the training fails...not us "anti" people or you for the collars.. you can argue your corner all you like but good old fashioned training will work all the time. If you want to stick electronic devises onto your dog - then poor dog IMO, but that is your choice.

And who is this leading dog expert? No one is an expert - that would suggest they know everything about dogs, yet we're still, as a whole society and species, learning about them.

There are no experts (on anything), just knowledgeable people.. who are still learning.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Anyway whatever you decide OP be REALLY careful of not getting caught in the, more common than not, "Naïve pet owners" magic circle of commercial trainers & behaviourists. Its not just the money its the dog which is loosing years off its' short life as well you having to put with years of endless....well...sheer bunkum is the only world I can think of....correction, rip offs an equally appropriate term.

Sample below of first time dog owner & how he was scammed for 2 years and still no recall.

_I live in London so as you can imagine it's vey expensive. My first trainer's rate was £150 for 2 hours, the second one was £300 for several sessions, third was £160 for two hours and the fourth was £80 for one hour. They all used different techniques and some mutual techniques and all were recommended and very experienced. The classes I go to are one of a kind and are excellent and only cost £20 per class but aren't in London so it involves a two hour car journey there and two hours back once a week so once you've factored petrol in it's actually quite a lot_.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/179338-remote-spray-collar-advice-2.html

.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

SLB said:


> Oh I forgot an advantage of your dog knowing the Speak and Quiet command.
> 
> When you have neighbours like mine who have their lawn cut at 7am, building work done at 6am and a 23 year old daughter who loves to have her friends round and shout at each other despite being in the same room..
> 
> 3am - Speak command and cheese at the ready - screw you neighbours :lol: I quite like my sleep thank you very much


And that is so why a 'speak' command is *SO *important


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## dickybirdclocks (Mar 24, 2011)

Training training training - My boy gets plenty of training but as can happen with a teenager as we all know things can sometimes just not add up and need an alternative reminder to get back on the straight and narrow .My using the spray commander collar is the method i choose and works a treat ,Suck it and see .


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

dickybirdclocks said:


> Training training training - My boy gets plenty of training but *as can happen with a teenager as we all know things can sometimes just not add up and need an alternative reminder to get back on the straight and narrow* .My using the spray commander collar is the method i choose and works a treat ,Suck it and see .


This is where consistency comes in.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm not a fan of spray collars, although I'm not totally 100% against them either - used correctly under appropriate circumstances. For example, as an interuptor used in conjunction with reward based training, where a speedy result is vital. 

However, I do object to the use of the citronella scent. 

Plain water / air can make a dog jump (interuptor) and may be mildly aversive (punisher), but it is over instantaneously. Add a scent to that and the punishment is not only more severe (particularly given dogs highly sensitive sense of smell) but it drags on for an indeterminate period - meaning the dog has to suffer long after it has ceased the unwanted behaviour (or performed the desired one). This is something I imagine could be confusing for the dog, as well as a potential welfare concern.

I agree with the posters that have said training is what matters - not the equipment. Teaching speak and quiet is the way forward.
I certainly wouldn't use an aversive method on a dog like the OP describes - this sounds like normal barking, not persistent nuisance barking. so long as you can get him to quiet on command there is no need to try and stop him barking altogther.


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