# Is it safe to be gay in the UK



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I'm shocked, saddened and upset. 147% rise in hate crime this year and some terrible accounts.

Please do watch, if only to honour the bravery of those who spoke out to the camera and are telling the most frightening stories and to listen to the isolation. I thought it was bad enough being isolated by not confirming to society by not having children but this is heartbreaking.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I haven't seen the programme yet, but it sounds sad. 

@MollySmith Are people isolated by not having children? I don't actually have any friends who have had children. Just doing a quick count. Off the top of my head. 17 people, 6 of them married, 3 not in a relationship. These are people I see quite often, or are family members, not internet friends. They all chose not to have children (yet), say they don't want children and some are past the age they can.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

People are constantly harrassed for not having children. My daughter gets so angry about it and has been told for many years that óne day'she will change her mind.. or told 'just you wait once you get pregnant you will love it' she says children and babies make her feel sick but people keep pushing its awful. Now days she tells people there are gentic reasons why she cant/ wont have children and suddenly shes a hero!

As for being gay.. Yes its still a problem. Its doesnt matter how many gay people we see on tv or gay people are in public life people still feel threatend by it.. I was talking to my neighbour this eveing and her grandson 3 is mad about cooking and he likes to play with traditional girls toys.. Our other joint neighbour said 'whats wrong with him is he **** or what '? 
Sadly an all too common reaction.. 
People are still very primative and hit out at anything they dont understand or dont recognise.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Elles said:


> I haven't seen the programme yet, but it sounds sad.
> 
> @MollySmith Are people isolated by not having children? I don't actually have any friends who have had children. Just doing a quick count. Off the top of my head. 17 people, 6 of them married, 3 not in a relationship. These are people I see quite often, or are family members, not internet friends. They all chose not to have children (yet), say they don't want children and some are past the age they can.


Yes they are. The website in my signature tells many stories and I experienced it a lot when working full time. and I still do (that it and many support groups have to exist to help anyone coming to terms with involuntary childlessness - i.e not by choice - speaks volumes). Online and person. I mention it because some contributors talk about not being 'normal' and I hadn't thought about isolation even though one of my best friends is gay.

But this thread is about the programme. I hope that people will watch it. It's a reason to understand why Pride events are still needed in this country. It's not easy watching and does have violent scenes, horrific photos but incredibly brave people.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I didn't see this programme, but will get it on catch-up if I can. I had a hard time coming out, my partner had an even harder time and a friend of ours had a horrendous reaction from her family. 

Our friend came out to her family when she was around 19. Her mum freaked out and threw a glass at her. Her uncle tried to kill her several times and one night he hunted her down. She was at a friend's house and he found out where she was. He went round with a knife and went for her, but her friend got in the way and he stabbed him, killing him. Our friend then went into protective custody and her uncle into a psych ward. Her friend's grave got dephiled with the words "death by a *****". All this happened when she was also trying to get her head around her own identity


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

dorrit said:


> As for being gay.. Yes its still a problem. Its doesnt matter how many gay people we see on tv or gay people are in public life people still feel threatend by it.. I was talking to my neighbour this eveing and her grandson 3 is mad about cooking and he likes to play with traditional girls toys.. Our other joint neighbour said 'whats wrong with him is he **** or what '?
> Sadly an all too common reaction..
> People are still very primative and hit out at anything they dont understand or dont recognise.




My friend who works for London Transport and her wife have been attacked when they were coming off shift after being verbally abused. They did catch the person who put her wife in hospital but it's the damage it's caused to their confidence, going out and that it happened as they left work makes them both terrified.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Sairy said:


> I didn't see this programme, but will get it on catch-up if I can. I had a hard time coming out, my partner had an even harder time and a friend of ours had a horrendous reaction from her family.
> 
> Our friend came out to her family when she was around 19. Her mum freaked out and threw a glass at her. Her uncle tried to kill her several times and one night he hunted her down. She was at a friend's house and he found out where she was. He went round with a knife and went for her, but her friend got in the way and he stabbed him, killing him. Our friend then went into protective custody and her uncle into a psych ward. Her friend's grave got dephiled with the words "death by a *****". All this happened when she was also trying to get her head around her own identity


Oh @Sairy my friend had a terrible time of it too and some twenty years later is only just speaking to his family again. It breaks my heart that anyone can be judged for their sexuality and worse to be attacked for it. It's utterly wrong and shameful. I am so very sorry to hear about your friend.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2017)

Sairy said:


> I didn't see this programme, but will get it on catch-up if I can. I had a hard time coming out, my partner had an even harder time and a friend of ours had a horrendous reaction from her family.
> 
> Our friend came out to her family when she was around 19. Her mum freaked out and threw a glass at her. Her uncle tried to kill her several times and one night he hunted her down. She was at a friend's house and he found out where she was. He went round with a knife and went for her, but her friend got in the way and he stabbed him, killing him. Our friend then went into protective custody and her uncle into a psych ward. Her friend's grave got dephiled with the words "death by a *****". All this happened when she was also trying to get her head around her own identity


Oh dear god that's so awful Sairy 

I don't like sharing personal stuff in public, but I lost my dearest friend 10 years ago due in part to the horrors gay people face. I miss her every day.... To the point that it is hard for me to participate in threads like this


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Oh dear god that's so awful Sairy
> 
> I don't like sharing personal stuff in public, but I lost my dearest friend 10 years ago due in part to the horrors gay people face. I miss her every day.... To the point that it is hard for me to participate in threads like this


That is horrible, I am sorry to hear that 

Things are so much better than they used to be, but there is still a long way to go. I think a lot of people don't realise just how hard it can be at times because society in general has come a long way. I am glad that I can be with the person of my choice and am happily married to her, but it was not an easy road to go down. My OH was beaten on pretty much a daily basis by other kids at school. In the changing rooms in PE lessons the other kids made her face the wall because they thought she would be looking at them getting changed.

I had a fairly easy time with my peers in comparison, but had a tough time with my family, who did the whole "we love you, but can't accept this side of you". I have never experienced anything as painful as feeling rejected by the two people who were supposed to accept me unconditionally.


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## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

My son is gay and in a loving relationship. I do worry when they go on ho!iday, They like to holiday in European cities. I really worry about them when away from home soil but also worry about them in the UK. We have a large family on OH side and have had to deal with a lot of prejudice. My family have been more accepting. Really worry about them but personally have no time for people who don't understand their relationship in this day and age.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I've come from a very "liberal " open and accepting family and upbringing and find it so shocking that even today people can be so prejudice and hate for no reason 


Going slightly off track......
I don't understand why anyone should be expected to "come out" as a straight person no one expected me to announce my sexuality so why do we as a society expect others to? Unless I am physically attracted to someone what does their sexuality matter to me? I don't care if someone is gay, straight or anything else as long as they are a decent person that's all that matters.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

People can be so cruel.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Fleur said:


> I've come from a very "liberal " open and accepting family and upbringing and find it so shocking that even today people can be so prejudice and hate for no reason
> 
> Going slightly off track......
> *I don't understand why anyone should be expected to "come out" as a straight person no one expected me to announce my sexuality so why do we as a society expect others to? *Unless I am physically attracted to someone what does their sexuality matter to me? I don't care if someone is gay, straight or anything else as long as they are a decent person that's all that matters.


Absolutely! Hopefully one day this will be the case. I do find it weird when people who haven't known me for long say "oh I didn't know you were gay". I usually reply with "well it's not like when I introduce myself with Hi my name's Sarah and I'm a lesbian!" People seem to assume you are straight unless you state otherwise and when they find out that you aren't then they almost seem offended that you didn't tell them sooner


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

It is terrible that people still have to suffer prejudice and abuse, surely we should be more enlightened by now? Must be beyond horrible to have your family give up on you for being gay too. 
(I suppose Im lucky being asexual...most people dont even know that its even a 'thing'!)


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm watching this now...I've been in tears for the whole programme so far.

Just heartbreaking.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Just watched it. Some people are violent, sadistic, bullies and total maniacs.  I really don't understand them at all. It's just soul destroying that people behave like this.

It can be very debilitating seeing every person as a potential attacker and danger on every corner. Terrible stories.

I felt really bad for the young guy who was now trying to hide, blaming himself and so frightened. I wanted to tell him that it's not because he's gay. It's because they were violent psychopaths. It's not your fault. Two men took it upon themselves to beat innocent people into a pulp.

I would expect him to potentially be diagnosed with ptsd and be getting help. Not seemingly struggling like he is. 

It seemed so many blamed themselves. 

I hope that LGBT know that victim support and professional help is there for everyone and don't try to struggle on their own.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Even more isolating for the gay is when parents, particularly fathers, turn against their own flesh and blood.

There's very little sanctuary left at all.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Elles said:


> I haven't seen the programme yet, but it sounds sad.
> 
> @MollySmith Are people isolated by not having children? I don't actually have any friends who have had children. Just doing a quick count. Off the top of my head. 17 people, 6 of them married, 3 not in a relationship. These are people I see quite often, or are family members, not internet friends. They all chose not to have children (yet), say they don't want children and some are past the age they can.


Agree, I have never felt isolated ... ever. I've had some comments before but doesn't everyone in life have to deal with morons at some point! 

When I used to go out alot I seemed I was mainly going to gay bars as alot of my friends (male & female) were gay I don't remember any incidents or attacks afterwards but maybe we just went out in places where it was more accepted .... I don;t know. Such a shame if things are getting worse, I just don't understand why it is anyone else's business tbh. Will watch the programme on the iplayer this week


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sairy said:


> I didn't see this programme, but will get it on catch-up if I can. I had a hard time coming out, my partner had an even harder time and a friend of ours had a horrendous reaction from her family.
> 
> Our friend came out to her family when she was around 19. Her mum freaked out and threw a glass at her. Her uncle tried to kill her several times and one night he hunted her down. She was at a friend's house and he found out where she was. He went round with a knife and went for her, but her friend got in the way and he stabbed him, killing him. Our friend then went into protective custody and her uncle into a psych ward. Her friend's grave got dephiled with the words "death by a *****". All this happened when she was also trying to get her head around her own identity


OMG! I didn't want to click like on your post, as that is truly shocking. I find it so sad that people still struggle to come out in this day and age, due to other's ignorance and bigotry, and I'm sorry that sounds so trite. I have never had to deal with it, so cannot begin to imagine what you go through


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

It makes me so sad that people can still be fearful of being themselves in public purely based on the gender of the individual they love.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Fleur said:


> I don't understand why anyone should be expected to "come out" as a straight person no one expected me to announce my sexuality so why do we as a society expect others to?


I don't think society does.
You don't normally have heterosexual couples showing their sexuality in public or shouting it to all that will listen, so why do a large proportion of the gay community feel that need to flaunt theirs in everyone face?

If i see a young couple passionately making out in public I don't like it, same with any couple of any mix of gender. I don't want it in my face.
Sexual matters should be private between consenting adults not spilling out onto the streets for all to see ( shows of affection not included in this).

I know not all gay people are like this but the ones that are "out and proud and flaunting it about" are doing the rest no favours.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> I don't think society does.
> You don't normally have heterosexual couples showing their sexuality in public or shouting it to all that will listen, so why do a large proportion of the gay community feel that need to flaunt theirs in everyone face?
> 
> If i see a young couple passionately making out in public I don't like it, same with any couple of any mix of gender. I don't want it in my face.
> ...


But you see this every day; people walking along hand in hand, cuddling or kissing each other ..... surely that's a display of their sexuality as well & alot of gay people feel they are unable to do this.

I agree that I don't particularly like people 'all over' each other in public regardless of who they are but I don't think it's usually gay couples acting like this, at least I have never seen this Usually drunk straight couples who are old enough to know better!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rona said:


> I don't think society does.
> You don't normally have heterosexual couples showing their sexuality in public or shouting it to all that will listen, so why do a large proportion of the gay community feel that need to flaunt theirs in everyone face?
> 
> If i see a young couple passionately making out in public I don't like it, same with any couple of any mix of gender. I don't want it in my face.
> ...


If it helps to normalise it then I'm all for it TBH.

I saw people from all walks of life having a lovely day out at Norwich Pride on Saturday, from little ones in buggies to OAPs, it was a lovely atmosphere & no out & out displays of sex to be seen.

As for sexual matters being private, the general media nowadays makes sure they're not, though almost exclusively only if it's heterosexual.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

rona said:


> I don't think society does.
> You don't normally have heterosexual couples showing their sexuality in public or shouting it to all that will listen, so why do a large proportion of the gay community feel that need to flaunt theirs in everyone face?
> 
> If i see a young couple passionately making out in public I don't like it, same with any couple of any mix of gender. I don't want it in my face.
> ...


Wow! Just wow! Firstly, as previously stated gay people do feel the need to come out because people assume that you are straight unless you say otherwise. Gay people go through a lot of different emotions growing up including shame, embarrassment, self-hatred to name but a few. Coming out and finally admitting who you are to others can feel like a huge relief in a society that assumes you are heterosexual.

Secondly, I see a heck of a lot more straight couples "flaunting their sexuality" than gay. Yes when gay people first come out a lot shout it from the rooftops but that is because they have spent many years hiding from who they are and when they finally accept it it is extremely emotional and many are so happy that they can finally be themselves that they may go a little overboard for a while. I see very few gay people kissing in public and personally I won't even hold my OH's hand in public for fear of ridicule (we have faced this in the past when she put her arm around me so our fear is not unfounded). Straight couples can show affection in public without anyone batting an eyelid.

Thirdly, sexuality is a public affair (not sex, but sexuality). Couples get married every day (both gay and straight) and invite people to their weddings thus making it public. There is a difference between telling people you are gay and telling people what you get up to in the bedroom. Somehow, when you tell people you are gay some instantly think about sex although thankfully people are becoming more enlightened these days and realising that there is a lot more to gay relationships (as with hetero relationships) than sex.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rona said:


> I don't think society does.
> You don't normally have heterosexual couples showing their sexuality in public or shouting it to all that will listen, so why do a large proportion of the gay community feel that need to flaunt theirs in everyone face?
> 
> If i see a young couple passionately making out in public I don't like it, same with any couple of any mix of gender. I don't want it in my face.
> ...


I'm sorry, but this is so wrong. I rarely go out anymore, but in the days I did, it wasn't unusual to see heterosexual couples near enough having full blown sex out on the street, but never homosexuals. And given I always went out in Soho, that's saying something.

Like you, I hate seeing excessive PDA in public, I don't care who is doing it, but why is it ok for straight couples and not gay couples?

If you're talking about Pride - it's one day a year, and it's something that has been extremely hard fought for. Straight couples have never had to fight for the right to love whomever they want. It has never been illegal for straight couples to love and live together. There is no country in the world where being straight immediately commands a death sentence. So one day a year of celebrating their freedom to live life as they should is not asking much at all. The majority of my straight friends go to Pride as well; it's certainly not exclusive


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sairy said:


> Firstly, as previously stated gay people do feel the need to come out because people assume that you are straight unless you say otherwise.


What I don't understand is why they think they have too. If you want to just lead your life, lead it and don't make a big fuss about your sexuality. If you don't make a fuss,most won't even notice. It's no one elses business but your own.
As a heterosexual living with someone much younger who some may think is my son, I feel no compunction to put them right, why should I, they don't need to know 
I never answer those horrid questions on forms about your sexuality, why are they even there most of the time?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Like you, I hate seeing excessive PDA in public, I don't care who is doing it, but why is it ok for straight couples and not gay couples?


It isn't


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

rona said:


> What I don't understand is why they think they have too. If you want to just lead your life, lead it and don't make a big fuss about your sexuality. If you don't make a fuss,most won't even notice. It's no one elses business but your own.
> As a heterosexual living with someone much younger who some may think is my son, I feel no compunction to put them right, why should I, they don't need to know
> I never answer those horrid questions on forms about your sexuality, why are they even there most of the time?


People feel they have to let family and friends know. It would have been a bit of a shock to my parents when I brought a woman home as my partner without them knowing my sexuality.

I hope that in the future people won't have to come out as people won't make assumptions, but this is where we are at the moment.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rona said:


> What I don't understand is why they think they have too. If you want to just lead your life, lead it and don't make a big fuss about your sexuality. If you don't make a fuss,most won't even notice. It's no one elses business but your own.
> As a heterosexual living with someone much younger who some may think is my son, I feel no compunction to put them right, why should I, they don't need to know
> I never answer those horrid questions on forms about your sexuality, why are they even there most of the time?


So they shouldn't come out to their friends and family? When I met @Sairy for dinner, she didn't hop over, say "hi, I'm Sarah and I'm gay". That would be weird. Yes, we did discuss her wife, but that's because we were chatting and having a normal conversation, as people do.

Your wording comes across as very them and us, which is a huge part of the problem that is still faced every day


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Sairy said:


> People feel they have to let family and friends know. It would have been a bit of a shock to my parents when I brought a woman home as my partner without them knowing my sexuality.
> 
> I hope that in the future people won't have to come out as people won't make assumptions, but this is where we are at the moment.


Just to add, I don't come out to everyone I meet, but when I get to know people I can't be open about my life without them knowing my sexuality because at some point I'm going to mention my OH.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I didn't see the programme but it sounds horrendous .
I don't think it is worse treatment then say , the 70s where skinheads would go Qu**rbashing ( and P*kibashing ) but I would have hoped that people in general would be more accepting by now .

There will always be morons who will find a group of people to hate for any reason .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sairy said:


> People feel they have to let family and friends know. It would have been a bit of a shock to my parents when I brought a woman home as my partner without them knowing my sexuality.
> 
> I hope that in the future people won't have to come out as people won't make assumptions, but this is where we are at the moment.


Family is obviously a different matter. I'm talking public as in neighbours, work colleagues or people on the street.

I don't want to know someones sexuality, I would want to know the person.
We have a two of gay couples in this street. I know of one just because they owned a dog, the other I didn't have a clue until a neighbour told me.
PS They only told me in reference to something else not in a conversation about gays


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

I didn't see the programme. I'd like to think that it was the older generations that still have a problem with gay people, and that it will die with them.

But I'm guessing that it's not


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sairy said:


> Just to add, I don't come out to everyone I meet, but when I get to know people I can't be open about my life without them knowing my sexuality because at some point I'm going to mention my OH.


Do you worry about how every person you end up telling is going to take it?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Your wording comes across as very them and us, which is a huge part of the problem that is still faced every day


That's because you are "offended".

People are people whatever their sexuality. I just don't need to know someones sexuality unless I get close to that person, and even then it's not a need as in they have to tell me, just a natural progression of knowledge of someone you have as a friend


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Zaros said:


> Even more isolating for the gay is when parents, particularly fathers, turn against their own flesh and blood.
> 
> There's very little sanctuary left at all.


As a mother, I find that unbelievable 

All my husband and I ever want for my son is that he is healthy, safe and happy.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sairy said:


> sexuality is a public affair (not sex, but sexuality). Couples get married every day (both gay and straight) and invite people to their weddings thus making it public.


And for the public that doesn't witness the joining together of couples, be they gay or straight, notifications of their intentions are often placed in newspapers for everyone to read.

Last summer MrsZee and I were seated in the window of a café. Whilst people watching we both noticed that the many couples who passed by that window that day appeared detached, distant even. As though nobody really had any connection or anything in common at all.
Just across the road from the window stood two young men watching for a gap in the traffic and, judging by their body language, enjoying the time of actually being together. 
A brief opportunity to cross presented itself and both men charged into the road holding hands as they hurried across. Out on the pavement on the opposite side of the window they continued to hold hands as they read the extensive menu placed in the window just to the left of our table.
MrsZee and are pondered over the thought that, perhaps gay couples are predominantly more happy than straight?
We were justified in our thinking because all about us sat straight couples who were either too engaged in their mobiles or too engrossed with the establishments courtesy newspapers.:Wacky


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Yes they are. The website in my signature tells many stories and I experienced it a lot when working full time. and I still do (that it and many support groups have to exist to help anyone coming to terms with involuntary childlessness - i.e not by choice - speaks volumes). Online and person. I mention it because some contributors talk about not being 'normal' and I hadn't thought about isolation even though one of my best friends is gay.
> 
> But this thread is about the programme. I hope that people will watch it. It's a reason to understand why Pride events are still needed in this country. It's not easy watching and does have violent scenes, horrific photos but incredibly brave people.


I lost touch with my kids because of health problems. I agree it is isolating as one doesn't conform. I cannot imagine anything worse than a baby shower or being at a party with parents and you cannot have children. Unimaginable but I was fortunate that I do have my children (we are building bridges). I think your website is brilliant. I read the booklet about the research too which is very sobering. But as you said this is about the documentary, forgive the digression, praise is due where it is due and to use your expericesn to help others is very brave.

I cried through the programme. I did not know that hate crime like this existed. I have two friends who are happily married in same sex relationships and they haven't been attacked but they have been targets for verbal abuse and it chips away at their confidence.

Is it education? Or Lack of that has given this rise to attacks. Was it 147%? That has to be stopped, it is wrong in this day and age. Heartbreaking.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rona said:


> Family is obviously a different matter. I'm talking public as in neighbours, work colleagues or people on the street.
> 
> I don't want to know someones sexuality, I would want to know the person.
> We have a two of gay couples in this street. I know of one just because they owned a dog, the other I didn't have a clue until a neighbour told me.
> PS They only told me in reference to something else not in a conversation about gays


My sister is gay. She's been living with her partner for just over twenty years. It was only a couple of years ago the neighbours found out they were a couple, they had always presumed they were sisters. So no, there is no need to flaunt your sexuality.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sairy said:


> I didn't see this programme, but will get it on catch-up if I can. I had a hard time coming out, my partner had an even harder time and a friend of ours had a horrendous reaction from her family.
> 
> Our friend came out to her family when she was around 19. Her mum freaked out and threw a glass at her. Her uncle tried to kill her several times and one night he hunted her down. She was at a friend's house and he found out where she was. He went round with a knife and went for her, but her friend got in the way and he stabbed him, killing him. Our friend then went into protective custody and her uncle into a psych ward. Her friend's grave got dephiled with the words "death by a *****". All this happened when she was also trying to get her head around her own identity


Thats terrible sairy, im in my 60's had a friend at school whom I went horse riding with. Guess in that day she would have been very brave as she told her mother when she was 16, her mother freaked out and told her she wished she had never been born that she should have been aborted, that she wished her dead all verbal abuse which I guess at that age is bound to leave scars. Which obviously is has


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Zaros said:


> And for the public that doesn't witness the joining together of couples, be they gay or straight, notifications of their intentions are often placed in newspapers for everyone to read.
> 
> Last summer MrsZee and I were seated in the window of a café. Whilst people watching we both noticed that the many couples who passed by that window that day appeared detached, distant even. As though nobody really had any connection or anything in common at all.
> Just across the road from the window stood two young men watching for a gap in the traffic and, judging by their body language, enjoying the time of actually being together.
> ...


I don't think that's true. I think it depends on the couple.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Dr Pepper I don't know about flaunting , gays openly living as a couple and/or marrying is hardly flaunting .
Holding hands in the street isn't flaunting, some couples aren't always demonstrative though regardless of being gay or straight .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Considering 50 years ago someone could be arrested and put through horrific practices to "fix" you (getting an injection which makes you vomit and poo uncontrollably) and then left to lay in it for days, or aversion therapy just because they dared to look at someone of the same sex...why the hell shouldn't people be able to stand up and be proud of who they are?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> But you see this every day; people walking along hand in hand, cuddling or kissing each other ..... surely that's a display of their sexuality as well & alot of gay people feel they are unable to do this.
> 
> *I agree that I don't particularly like people 'all over' each other in public regardless of who they are but I don't think it's usually gay couples acting like this, at least I have never seen this Usually drunk straight couples who are old enough to know better! *


*
Exactly. I don't want to see that from anyone in public tbh!*

My husband and I always walk along holding hands and have the occasional peck when out and about (not a snog! ). We are naturally affectionate and don't think twice about it, and I don't think anybody would be offended by us even though we're nearly 60!

I imagine that gay couples would not necessarily feel comfortable (or safe) with public displays of affection in the same way? Which is a shame - to have to edit your natural, loving behaviour for fear of hostility.

Live and let live, I say - so long as we're not hurting anyone.

If my DS announced he was gay I'd be saddened, not because he's gay, but because I know that he will probably face problems because of it in society, sadly.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> As a mother, I find that unbelievable
> All my husband and I ever want for my son is that he is healthy, safe and happy.


As did my first wife and I. He was not only a good friend but also a work colleague.

The day his father discovered his son's sensuality, was the day my friends real torment began.
A severe initial physical beating in the home and then, unbelievably, one night his father, with a couple of macho drinking buddies, sought out his son with every deliberate intention of harassing him and whoever he might have been spending the night out with.
To say it got ugly would be a gross understatement. 
I spent the early hours of the following morning in A&E with my friend and couldn't, for the life of me, understand how a father could inflict such horrific injuries on his own flesh and blood.
I have no idea what happened to the father, my friend and his mother doesn't either.

And I honestly believe nobody really cares.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sairy said:


> People feel they have to let family and friends know. It would have been a bit of a shock to my parents when I brought a woman home as my partner without them knowing my sexuality.
> 
> I hope that in the future people won't have to come out as people won't make assumptions, but this is where we are at the moment.


I think it's difficult sometimes for people to know what to say or how to react tbh.

Most of the time it's just an off the cuff remark with no intention to offend - sometimes people feel a comment of some sort is required, or they feel awkward in a new situation and just put their foot in it.

If I were introduced to your partner I'd hope I would just say "hello, nice to meet you" rather than turn to you and say "oh, I didn't know you were gay"! 

I was having an echocardiogram recently and the technician was scanning just below by ribs on my belly. She joked "it's twins!" (I'm sure to put me at ease) but it did make me wince, just a little.

She had no idea of my struggles with infertility and failed pregnancies of course (nor my loss of a twin) but I felt compelled to tell her in a jokey way - "I doubt it, not without a miracle -I had my son through IVF" 

Hopefully, she will refrain from making that comment to another woman (who might not have been as lucky as me in the end and had a healthy baby eventually) who, I imagine could have been deeply upset by the joke even though there was no intention at all. To most people it would have been quite amusing.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MilleD said:


> I don't think that's true. I think it depends on the couple.


In that case, out of all the people we witnessed pass by the cafés window that day, the only happy affectionate couple we ever saw, besides ourselves ￼happened to have been a gay couple.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rona said:


> That's because you are "offended".
> 
> People are people whatever their sexuality. I just don't need to know someones sexuality unless I get close to that person, and even then it's not a need as in they have to tell me, just a natural progression of knowledge of someone you have as a friend


I'm very rarely offended, but some of your statements I do find offensive. Why on earth should you not know that there are two gay couples on your street? At no point did they skip down the road, waving a huge rainbow flag, shouting it through a bullhorn. No, you found one out because you spoke to them as you both have dogs. The other one was obviously a gossipy neighbour who told you. How is the other couple to stop your neighbour gossiping about them, or you tutting? Are you equally annoyed by the straight couple two doors down who you happen to know are straight because another gossipy neighbour told you that?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

This thread reminds me of a video I seen on FB a while ago. I was in tears by the end.






Now, this was a happy ending, but you can see the raw emotion, the anxiety, how nervous he is throughout the video. No heterosexual person has to go through that.

Society doesn't like "different" - whether it's the colour of your skin, your physical/mental ability, gender identity, or sexual identity - even if you're vegetarian or vegan! I identify as an asexual myself (glad to see I'm not the only one on here ), and, while I think my family have sort of accepted me as I am, I remember my mum saying that her cousin had said that I was "just a bit slow - that's all - a bit like our M", (her daughter, my cousin, married and had kids in her late 20s, early 30s) like one day I'd suddenly wake up and want to settle down and get married (as long as it was to a man, because turns out this cousin of my mum's can't handle homosexuality - her teenage daughter is one, and she expects her to just "grow out of it) and have kids.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

rona said:


> Family is obviously a different matter. I'm talking public as in neighbours, work colleagues or people on the street.
> 
> I don't want to know someones sexuality, I would want to know the person.
> We have a two of gay couples in this street. I know of one just because they owned a dog, the other I didn't have a clue until a neighbour told me.
> PS They only told me in reference to something else not in a conversation about gays


I work in an office with 13 other women, all straight. Through general office chatter I know which ones are single, which are married and which are living with their partners. I also know the names of all of their partners. Why shouldn't they know about my partner?

I have a great relationship with my neighbours. I know the couple next door very well, along with their kids. It would be weird if they didn't know that we are a couple.

On the subject of neighbours, when we moved into our last house (before we finally bought our own place) I was nervous about people finding out about us being gay as it wasn't the nicest of areas. I hoped that people would assume that we were just two friends moved in together. It wasn't until some time later that I found out that before we moved in the landlady went round to speak to the people next door to ask them whether they minded a lesbian couple moving in next door to them!!

I used to be a teacher and somehow the kids I taught found out about my sexuality and it spread like wildfire. It was a rough school and I got a fair bit of flack for it.

So it's not always easy to keep things private.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It's threads like this and comments from people around me that remind me daily why I am not honest about who I really am...It's easier for me to a point because I am in a socially acceptable relationship...I look "normal"

No one should have to hide who they are, no one should feel scared to be who they are!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Zaros said:


> In that case, out of all the people we witnessed pass by the cafés window that day, the only happy affectionate couple we ever saw, besides ourselves ￼happened to have been a gay couple.


Fair enough


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

MilleD said:


> I didn't see the programme. I'd like to think that it was the older generations that still have a problem with gay people, and that it will die with them.
> But I'm guessing that it's not


I think its to do with the general climate TBH. Immigration 'news', Trump, etc. Its just creating a sense of intolerance towards others and implicit acceptance of prejudice for many different types of people.



Dr Pepper said:


> My sister is gay. She's been living with her partner for just over twenty years. It was only a couple of years ago the neighbours found out they were a couple, they had always presumed they were sisters. So no, there is no need to flaunt your sexuality.


Weirdly enough when I shared a house with my best friend everybody actually thought we were a couple!:Wideyed Mostly we just ignored it...but sometimes we played along!LOL



Sairy said:


> I work in an office with 13 other women, all straight. Through general office chatter I know which ones are single, which are married and which are living with their partners. I also know the names of all of their partners. Why shouldn't they know about my partner?


huh......:Borednobody ever talks about their partners or kids where I work, is that strange??


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> huh......:Borednobody ever talks about their partners or kids where I work, is that strange??


Yup. When I worked in an office I knew absolutely everything there was to know about their everyday lives. I do wonder if it's because I worked with all women. Are men as forthcoming about their families? Saying that, I had a call with a client last week, and he told me all about his dog, wife and 10 year old son, and I hadn't asked.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

rona said:


> What I don't understand is why they think they have too. If you want to just lead your life, lead it and don't make a big fuss about your sexuality. If you don't make a fuss,most won't even notice. It's no one elses business but your own.


If only this were true...

It's very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it what it is like to grow up and live your life with a constant fear of how people _might_ react to one relatively minor detail about you.

My best friend was hounded out of her job because her colleagues found out she was a lesbian - she didn't tell them or 'make a fuss'. She sought help from management - who just joined in with the bullying. She tried to stick it out in the hope that they would move on but after two years of relentless bullying she was broken and had to leave the job she loved. In her new job she is so fearful of a repeat she's now changes all the pronouns and talks about her partner as 'he'.

A colleague of mine also referred to her female partner as 'he'. It was two years of working quite closely with her before I discovered the 'he' was actually a 'she' and even then only because my colleagues found out I was a lesbian and I experienced the horror of an entire team of about 60 staff who I thought I got on well with, many of whom I regarded as friends, turn on me. The ward manager was gay and shut himself in the office and refused to get involved. But then he was experiencing severe problems himself as his partner was HIV positive and the hospital was trying to get rid of him - I'm guessing he was HIV positive too. They eventually succeeded in getting rid of him. One other member of staff on that ward was also gay and he turned on me too - I'm sure out of fear, if he hadn't he would have become a target too.

I could go on and on with these type of stories.

You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
If you are up front and open and tell people at the start then you are 'making a big deal' out of it 'making a fuss', 'wanting attention'.

If you don't say anything you get caught in an anxious trap of waiting for people to figure it out, not knowing what their reactions are going to be. You make friends with people knowing they might turn on you in the future and you feel you are deceiving people. You worry about the direction conversations heading and avoid certain topics. It makes people talk and speculate behind your back and gives them the impression you are ashamed.
I think it actually encourages attacks. And it's _very_ stressful. And people live with this _every day._

Pride is the one day of the year when I actually feel completely happy and comfortable walking through my town surrounded by all sorts of people who are saying 'it's ok', _you're_ ok. It's difficult to explain but it is really important to me. It makes me feel equal to everyone else and confident and not afraid. I can understand how some people look at it and wonder why people feel the need to 'flaunt' their sexuality but when you have your confidence knocked every day, when you live with a constant background anxiety, it's amazingly uplifting and moving to have that one day when you feel at home.

Petforum is mostly a very supportive and accepting environment.
The 'real' world is not always like this.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> Weirdly enough when I shared a house with my best friend everybody actually thought we were a couple!:Wideyed Mostly we just ignored it...but sometimes we played along!LOL


A good few years ago I helped a friend start up a retail business. About four months in we had a news item appear in the local rags business section which described us as "partners in business and life", turns out pretty much everyone presumed we were gay! I was only ever going to be there for the first six months and when I left he kept being asked if we had split up


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm very rarely offended, but some of your statements I do find offensive. Why on earth should you not know that there are two gay couples on your street? At no point did they skip down the road, waving a huge rainbow flag, shouting it through a bullhorn. No, you found one out because you spoke to them as you both have dogs. The other one was obviously a gossipy neighbour who told you. How is the other couple to stop your neighbour gossiping about them, or you tutting? Are you equally annoyed by the straight couple two doors down who you happen to know are straight because another gossipy neighbour told you that?


The other was not a gossipy neighbour, we were just discussing dogs in the street and she said that the gay couple in no. ... had a dog. Not gossip, just a descriptive term much like the big guy from no... or the guy with the 4x4 from no.....

The point I am making is just as you've said. No they didn't go waving flags to say I'm gay, but so many gay people do and that's what I cannot understand. Why put yourself in the limelight like that and pronounce your sexuality, there's just no need

Just as when I was young, women were second classed citizens who needed the permission of their man for financial matters. Many waved and burnt their bras to pronounce their equality. I just didn't wear one *ever *and got on and did a "mans" job and proved myself equal. Didn't feel the need to declare it to all and sundry, though I was very proud at my achievement.
You don't think I haven't suffered insults and judgements being a woman working on a farm in the early 70s and unmarried at that?


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

rona said:


> they didn't go waving flags to say I'm gay, but so many gay people do and that's what I cannot understand. Why put yourself in the limelight like that and pronounce your sexuality, there's just no need


There _is_ a need as so many people here are trying to explain.
Walk in our shoes and then you can tell us there is no need...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ameliajane said:


> If only this were true...
> 
> It's very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it what it is like to grow up and live your life with a constant fear of how people _might_ react to one relatively minor detail about you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I just don't understand in this day and age how this is even happening. Yes I know there are extreme views and nasty people, but in my world, the general population don't even give gender or race a second thought. So when I say the neighbours wasn't gossiping about the gay couple over the road, they actually weren't gossiping. I've never heard any anti race or gay (religion is another subject) views except from 2 people in my entire life.
No that's not right it's 3 people but one of them had been a prisoner of war


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> The point I am making is just as you've said. No they didn't go waving flags to say I'm gay, but so many gay people do and that's what I cannot understand. Why put yourself in the limelight like that and pronounce your sexuality, there's just no need


Frankly i dont think that 'so many gay people' do go around flag waving. Of course there are sections of the gay community who take a more activist role....just like there are members of the breast feeding community who plop out a boob in Tesco to prove a point or militant vegans who hold funerals at the meat counter of Aldi! Its just that these are the people who we take notice of....most gay people are quietly going about their lives bothering nobody at all!


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

rona said:


> in my world, the general population don't even give gender or race a second thought. So when I say the neighbours wasn't gossiping about the gay couple over the road, they actually weren't gossiping. I've never heard any anti race or gay (religion is another subject) views except from 2 people in my entire life.


Rona, can I come and live with you.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

ameliajane said:


> If only this were true...
> You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
> If you are up front and open and tell people at the start then you are 'making a big deal' out of it 'making a fuss', 'wanting attention'.
> 
> ...


Exactly! You are damned if you do, damned if you don't. 
Pride is real fun. I don't see it as just a "gay parade" (pardon the term), I just see it as a parade about people showing love to one another, and expressing acceptance to all genders and all sexuality. People dress up and enjoy themselves, (but people in_ all parades_ dress up and enjoy themselves). I've been on a few parades, and it's always fun and uplifting. So what if people "flaunt" their sexuality? Every sexuality is "normal" (what is normal, anyway?) Sex can be great, and I think we've evolved from it being for purely reproductive purposes! No one chooses their sexuality, no one chooses who they find attractive or who they fall in love with. I see sexuality as fluid, anyway. I think people are just uptight, and often jealous.

The programme itself made me very angry and sad, I only caught the last half of it though. The stories were just heart-breaking, and I was so sad for those involved.
I know homophobia exists, (and has differing degrees, but it's all based on hate). I'd like to think that society has becoming much more accepting, and I am hoping that these incidents are becoming less common. I honestly do think (and hope), that although the statistics are saying hate crimes like this are increasing, but in fact they aren't, and that they are just being _reported more_, as people feel brave enough to come forward and that these incidents are being recognised for what they are.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rona said:


> The point I am making is just as you've said. No they didn't go waving flags to say I'm gay, but so many gay people do and that's what I cannot understand. Why put yourself in the limelight like that and pronounce your sexuality, there's just no need


Did you watch the YouTube clip I posted? It's only about 2 minutes long. I can imagine that, after comng out to his parents (there's a longer video he made a few years layer in which he says he told his dad, and he pretty much went "meh! Fair enough!" ) that young man must want to shout it from the rooftops - not because he "wants to make a big deal" of its or because he wants to "flaunt" it, but because the 2 people who matter the most in the world to this young man, accept him for who he is, and he doesn't have to hide, anymore.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

LinznMilly said:


> Did you watch the YouTube clip I posted? It's only about 2 minutes long. I can imagine that, after comng out to his parents (there's a longer video he made a few years layer in which he says he told his dad, and he pretty much went "meh! Fair enough!" ) that young man must want to shout it from the rooftops - not because he "wants to make a big deal" of its or because he wants to "flaunt" it, but because the 2 people who matter the most in the world to this young man, accept him for who he is, and he doesn't have to hide, anymore.


Exactly.
He's happy because he's been worried for years, and had to try and hide his sexuality.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

The way I see it in a nutshell, is that I've never been harassed, made to feel unwelcome, assaulted, abused, embarrassed or discriminated against simply because I'm straight. Nuff said.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

To be honest I don't really care, let people live their lives how they want.

The only thing I'll say is... I'm getting rather fed up of them talking about all the time in TV and programs about them, I think it only going to stir up trouble with intolerant people.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Jackie C said:


> The way I see it in a nutshell, is that I've never been harassed, made to feel unwelcome, assaulted, abused, embarrassed or discriminated against simply because I'm straight. Nuff said.


wow! really?? Ive been called a slapper, slag, allsorts of weird sexual verbal abuse not to mention being groped Trumpishly on the odd ocassion! (and I am really, really ugly). Admittedly it was when I was younger but it taught me that certain people are just nasty little s**ts.....Im pretty sure these people will be nasty little s**ts wether you are gay, straight, black, white, speccy, ginger, etc!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> wow! really?? Ive been called a slapper, slag, allsorts of weird sexual verbal abuse not to mention being groped Trumpishly on the odd ocassion! (and I am really, really ugly). Admittedly it was when I was younger but it taught me that certain people are just nasty little s**ts.....Im pretty sure these people will be nasty little s**ts wether you are gay, straight, black, white, speccy, ginger, etc!


Tbf, I've never experienced any sexual harassment, either.

And I'm sure you're doing yourself an injustice, calling yourself "really, really ugly"


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rona said:


> The point I am making is just as you've said. No they didn't go waving flags to say I'm gay, but so many gay people do and that's what I cannot understand. Why put yourself in the limelight like that and pronounce your sexuality, there's just no need
> 
> Just as when I was young, women were second classed citizens who needed the permission of their man for financial matters. Many waved and burnt their bras to pronounce their equality. I just didn't wear one *ever *and got on and did a "mans" job and proved myself equal. Didn't feel the need to declare it to all and sundry, though I was very proud at my achievement.
> You don't think I haven't suffered insults and judgements being a woman working on a farm in the early 70s and unmarried at that?


It's the people who put themselves in the limelight that make real change. Getting on quietly is fine, but it doesn't really reach anyone.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jackie C said:


> The way I see it in a nutshell, is that I've never been harassed, made to feel unwelcome, assaulted, abused, embarrassed or discriminated against simply because I'm straight. Nuff said.


I have. My wife and I went in a bar whilst on holiday. Ordered our drinks and sat down. To be fair we did start to notice the magazine's, pictures etc were all obviously gay related. Thought fair enough and sat back to enjoy our drinks. After about ten minutes a very gay looking chap (maybe camp is a better word, whatever I use someone will take offence at) came up to us and said "your in the wrong bar please leave". This was about 5pm not so not even late at night when clubbing was well under way.

So all this "it's not s matter of them and us" isn't all one sided.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

rona said:


> I know not all gay people are like this but the ones that are "out and proud and flaunting it about" are doing the rest no favours.


Statements like this is what sends people back in to hiding in shame. 
I know you don't mean to with that statement, but that is the effect it can have.

Test is out. Change gay to straight. Would you say that straight people who flaunt it aren't doing the other straight people any favors? No, of course not, it wouldn't make sense? Why wouldn't it make sense? Because no one has to normalize being straight.

And FWIW, shows of affection are just that, shows of affection. I kiss my husband in public. I love him. It's not a make out session, but we do show affection to each other in public. Guess what? I also kiss and hug my kids in public. And at their age I'm beyond grateful they still let me. Why shouldn't a gay couple kiss goodbye or hold hands affectionately, or simply allow themselves to be free to express themselves appropriately in public?


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> I have. My wife and I went in a bar whilst on holiday. Ordered our drinks and sat down. To be fair we did start to notice the magazine's, pictures etc were all obviously gay related. Thought fair enough and sat back to enjoy our drinks. After about ten minutes a very gay looking chap (maybe camp is a better word, whatever I use someone will take offence at) came up to us and said "your in the wrong bar please leave". This was about 5pm not so not even late at night when clubbing was well under way.
> 
> So all this "it's not s matter of them and us" isn't all one sided.


Are you seriously trying to suggest it's as difficult to be straight and open about it as it is to be gay and open about it?

Your encounter was with one rude person. You're not living your life in shame and fear because of your sexual orientation. Try to get some perspective on the conversation here.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Dr Pepper said:


> I have. My wife and I went in a bar whilst on holiday. Ordered our drinks and sat down. To be fair we did start to notice the magazine's, pictures etc were all obviously gay related. Thought fair enough and sat back to enjoy our drinks. After about ten minutes a very gay looking chap (maybe camp is a better word, whatever I use someone will take offence at) came up to us and said "your in the wrong bar please leave". This was about 5pm not so not even late at night when clubbing was well under way.
> 
> So all this "it's not s matter of them and us" isn't all one sided.


Echo Ouesi here, you encountered someone rude, and yes, it was wrong. But this is one incident in your entire life-time, and so it sticks in your mind. I don't think it's really a true comparison to the entire life of a someone who is afraid to "come out" because of a few small-minded people (not saying you're small-minded).


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Dr Pepper said:


> My sister is gay. She's been living with her partner for just over twenty years. It was only a couple of years ago the neighbours found out they were a couple, they had always presumed they were sisters. So no, there is no need to flaunt your sexuality.


Your sister and her partner are not representations of every gay couple and their relationship with neighbours is not representative of every person's relationship with neighbours.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> Are you seriously trying to suggest it's as difficult to be straight and open about it as it is to be gay and open about it?
> 
> Your encounter was with one rude person. You're not living your life in shame and fear because of your sexual orientation. Try to get some perspective on the conversation here.


Exactly. It's not every straight person that's against gay people either. And in that situation I was in fear because of my sexuality. So don't pretend all gay people are innocent victims, some are just as 'phobic (sorry don't the word equivalent word for the opposite of homophobia) as homophobics.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jackie C said:


> Echo Ouesi here, you encountered someone rude, and yes, it was wrong. But this is one incident in your entire life-time, and so it sticks in your mind. I don't think it's really a true comparison to the entire life of a someone who is afraid to "come out" because of a few small-minded people (not saying you're small-minded).


To be fair I wasn't trying to say it's the same. It was just an example. And yes a one off.

Edit
Why was this person simply just rude, yet if someone asks a gay person to leave a venue they are homophobic?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Sairy said:


> Your sister and her partner are not representations of every gay couple and their relationship with neighbours is not representative of every person's relationship with neighbours.


Never said it was. Just pointing out that for every persecuted gay person out there is someone living a normal happy life. During my brief six months of being though to be gay we weren't aware of it because there were no issues. I presume a lot of it has to do with where you live.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> Did you watch the YouTube clip I posted? It's only about 2 minutes long. I can imagine that, after comng out to his parents (there's a longer video he made a few years layer in which he says he told his dad, and he pretty much went "meh! Fair enough!" ) that young man must want to shout it from the rooftops - not because he "wants to make a big deal" of its or because he wants to "flaunt" it, but because the 2 people who matter the most in the world to this young man, accept him for who he is, and he doesn't have to hide, anymore.


I remember a couple of years ago, a 'coming out announcement' on a forum went viral. The reason? he was a member of a geeky IT forum and had been for a while. When he posted his CO post, everyone started discussing why he had posted in Rich Text rather than HTML. A few of them took the p*ss out of him for it. No-one said anything about him being gay.

I asked a couple of friends what that would have been like for him. Would he have been relieved, put out, upset? Glad or scared? They said that he would have been scared before he did it. Worried that he'd lose his friends on there. Scared that he'd get abuse. And afterwards, he was most likely relieved that it was no big deal and he didn't need to explain himself or talk about it to get acceptance.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

It surely depends on the environment and setting. Anyone "different" and potentitally in a minority is "unsafe" in certain environments. Sophie Lancaster springs to mind here. The male homosexuals I used to know in the UK did not have problems in the settings I met them. Mostly gothic nightclubs which I admit tend to be more accepting than other environments.

An interesting question is if someone is straight would they feel comfortable going to a gay event such as a gay nightclub or bar? For me it depends on the settings. I wouldn't feel comfortable going to a over 30's club for heterosexual people for example but would have little problem going to something like https://glittertrauma.jimdo.com/ (in germany). This is because I would expect "no" to be respected. The point being, it's people based, not orientation based.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Goblin said:


> It surely depends on the environment and setting. Anyone "different" and potentitally in a minority is "unsafe" in certain environments. Sophie Lancaster springs to mind here. The male homosexuals I used to know in the UK did not have problems in the settings I met them. Mostly gothic nightclubs which I admit tend to be more accepting than other environments.
> 
> An interesting question is if someone is straight would they feel comfortable going to a gay event such as a gay nightclub or bar? For me it depends on the settings. I wouldn't feel comfortable going to a over 30's club for heterosexual people for example but would have little problem going to something like https://glittertrauma.jimdo.com/ (in germany). This is because I would expect "no" to be respected. The point being, it's people based, not orientation based.


I'm confused, are you saying that "no" wouldn't be respected in an over 30's club for heterosexual people?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ameliajane said:


> Rona, can I come and live with you.


You really wouldn't want to I can assure you but that's nothing to do with bigots and prejudice 

I can't even remember my parents, relations or any friends (bar the 2) making derogatory comments about gay people and most of them were of a different generation . It's just always been a non issue.
Probably why I can never see the point of making it an issue.
If it's different elsewhere then that must be awful, and it may start to change around here now we have so much house building and thousands incomers


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> I can't even remember my parents, relations or any friends (bar the 2) making derogatory comments about gay people and most of them were of a different generation .


My parents practice what I call 'polite prejudice'. They will tend to bring it up if someone is gay or Indian, etc.... 'yes, she's a lesbian you know. But ever such a nice girl!':Hilarious


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Did you watch the YouTube clip I posted? It's only about 2 minutes long. I can imagine that, after comng out to his parents (there's a longer video he made a few years layer in which he says he told his dad, and he pretty much went "meh! Fair enough!" ) that young man must want to shout it from the rooftops - not because he "wants to make a big deal" of its or because he wants to "flaunt" it, but because the 2 people who matter the most in the world to this young man, accept him for who he is, and he doesn't have to hide, anymore.


i did, and all it proves is that sometimes the fear is totally unfounded and in a person head.
Contrary to what you may think, I remember gong through something quite similar twice with my father, of course it wasn't to do with sexuality but what I went through it for, other wouldn't


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

MilleD said:


> I'm confused, are you saying that "no" wouldn't be respected in an over 30's club for heterosexual people?


It's not a heterosexual or homosexual thing but a people and environment based thing. I've had to insinuate myself into dancing with a female friend of mine to get men to back off of her before. Cattle market springs to mind but I have heard of gay clubs similar. People, not orientation are the issue.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Goblin said:


> It surely depends on the environment and setting. Anyone "different" and potentitally in a minority is "unsafe" in certain environments. Sophie Lancaster springs to mind here. The male homosexuals I used to know in the UK did not have problems in the settings I met them. Mostly gothic nightclubs which I admit tend to be more accepting than other environments.
> 
> An interesting question is if someone is straight would they feel comfortable going to a gay event such as a gay nightclub or bar? For me it depends on the settings. I wouldn't feel comfortable going to a over 30's club for heterosexual people for example but would have little problem going to something like https://glittertrauma.jimdo.com/ (in germany). This is because I would expect "no" to be respected. The point being, it's people based, not orientation based.


As a student I used to go to gay bars and nightclubs with both my gay and straight friends all the time. It wasn't a big deal to us and my straight friends and I felt welcome and comfortable. In fact in some ways it was quite nice to be hit upon by a girl there, have a chat but explain I am straight and have that person respond in a friendly and understanding way. Experiences of being hit upon by a man in nightclubs where the majority were straight tended to be more tedious as they often wouldn't take no for an answer when you told them you weren't interested.

One of my male gay friends was rejected by his father when he came out. Friends were generally understanding and I don't think he had too many issues of acceptance from his peer group but the rejection by his father prompted him to attempt suicide on at least two occasions. Nowadays he is happily living with his partner and his relationship with his father has improved..

My niece recently came out. I think she was very relieved at discovering her parents and her wider family were totally accepting though sad for the potential tough time she may receive in future from uneducated and hurtful people. I personally thought it very sad that she was unsure that her family would be anything other than supportive but as my friend discovered and other posters have said above, family and friends can be incredibly and shockingly unsupportive.

My father has made some less enlightened remarks about gay people in his time (he thought my friend would just grow out of it  ) but through being continually educated by me  he has a much better understanding and is more supportive in his comments. He knows I wont tolerate any form of bigotry so perhaps he just doesn't say stuff aloud but that at least is an improvement. I think it is a generational thing but that is still not excuse to be prejudiced.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> My parents practice what I call 'polite prejudice'. They will tend to bring it up if someone is gay or Indian, etc.... 'yes, she's a lesbian you know. But ever such a nice girl!':Hilarious


I know a lot of people who do that. And a lot of them just assume I will agree with their views because I look like them.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Mirandashell said:


> I know a lot of people who do that. And a lot of them just assume I will agree with their views because I look like them.


Me too. They tend to be surprised when I don't


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

True dat!


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> wow! really?? Ive been called a slapper, slag, allsorts of weird sexual verbal abuse not to mention being groped Trumpishly on the odd ocassion! (and I am really, really ugly). Admittedly it was when I was younger but it taught me that certain people are just nasty little s**ts.....Im pretty sure these people will be nasty little s**ts wether you are gay, straight, black, white, speccy, ginger, etc!


I don't mean as a _woman_. I was talking about harassment for being heterosexual. 
As a _woman,_ I have experienced verbal abuse, sexual harassment, and, as you say, grouped Trumpishly. Yes, these people are nasty little s**ts.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Can I put a little perspective here for some who think a little name calling is what the programme was about and.....please go back to the first post on here I urged you to _*watch*_ it rather than make leaps into what constitutes assault. Here's the source..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40643461

Here's the article because clicking on a link is occasionally avoided because means some people might learn something and god forbid that's too much.

"Fifty years ago, gay sex between men in private was decriminalised in England and Wales. Despite this, hate crimes against gay people have persisted, and the number of attacks recorded by police has been rising. There were 7,194 in England and Wales in the year to April 2016. Campaigners say this isn't the full picture, though, as many victims still don't report assaults. Six people affected by hate crimes share their stories.

*Warning: This story contains details of violence and images which some readers might find upsetting.*

James and Dain were enjoying a night out together in Brighton in May 2016 when they were followed out of a nightclub and attacked on the seafront. The assault has left physical and emotional scars.

*James:* We were at the bar and we got this look from a couple of guys from across the dance floor. It takes a lot to make me feel uncomfortable but it was just such a weird look they gave us. Dain had his arm around me. I don't think they liked that. Then they started shouting at us. I told Dain we needed to get out of the club into a taxi the quickest way possible.

*Dain:* We left the bar. No-one was about. All of a sudden I heard running behind us. There was no way we were going to outrun them. They grabbed us from behind and chucked us to the floor. I was lying on the pavement and all I could see was James but the next thing I saw was a shoe coming towards my face. That knocked me completely unconscious.

*James:* One of the boys started kicking Dain's face really rapidly. There was a lot of aggression and shouting of "gay boys". Every time I tried to crawl closer to Dain, I was dragged along the pavement. At that point, a taxi drove past and called the police. I remember standing up for the first time and Dain looked at me and said, "I can't see."

*Dain:* My eye socket was completely shattered. I had haemorrhages in both my eyes and fractures on my cheeks. My tooth was chipped and my nose was broken as well. I remember being in hospital and kept asking, "Am I going to be able to see again?" They said, "We can't tell you because everything is so swollen." They couldn't even open my eyes.








Image copyrightDAIN
Image captionDain in hospital after the attack
James and I were very close anyway but spending that much time with each other really proved to me how strong our relationship is. I'm a very resilient person and I'm not going to live my life how someone else wants me to. I'm not going to let anyone change that. If anything, this has made me want to be who I am even more.

*James:* It's made him stronger and it's made him not care about what other people think and to go out there and be himself even more, whereas it's done the opposite to me. It's changed me. I've changed my thought process and mindset, how I think, how I look, how I speak, who I'm with, where we go and it's sad because I remember how we were before it happened and I look at us now and it's upsetting because it's them who made this happen. That's what's hard to accept.

It's a year since it happened and I thought things would probably get easier but they haven't. When we're out and about he wants us to look like we're together obviously but I'm scared of something similar happening again. It wasn't like that a year ago. We didn't go down the street holding hands but I wasn't fully aware of us making sure that we weren't seen as a couple.

I couldn't ever forgive the people who attacked us or forget what happened. It will stay with me and I'm sure it will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

_Both attackers, Gage Vye-Parminter and Matthew Howes, pleaded guilty to grievous bodily harm and assault and were sentenced to seven years in prison."

_


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Please for heavens sake can we make this a rare thread when we learn from each other. I learned a lot from the programme, we all can.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It was so upsetting to see the change in James after the attack, to the point he would only wear tracksuits so he didn't stand out...and the fact he seemed to blame himself for the attack - they did nothing wrong 

But poor Connor, he was asleep in his own bed ffs


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> It was so upsetting to see the change in James after the attack, to the point he would only wear tracksuits so he didn't stand out...and the fact he seemed to blame himself for the attack - they did nothing wrong
> 
> But poor Connor, he was asleep in his own bed ffs


I know, so incredibly shocking and his grandmother, oh bless her. I've DM'd his partner who is on Twitter to ask if they want me to design their wedding stationery.

The change in James was sobering, it's what I've seen with domestic violence victims and major trauma, and it's clearly having an affect on their relationship.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Yes I'm certain there is PTSD going on there...


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Exactly. It's not every straight person that's against gay people either. And in that situation I was in fear because of my sexuality. *So don't pretend all gay people are innocent victims*, some are just as 'phobic (sorry don't the word equivalent word for the opposite of homophobia) as homophobics.


The bit in bold is ridiculous on so many levels, I don't even know how to address it.

Please stop trying to equalize homophobia with a few incidents a straight person might encounter. It is incredibly dismissive of the unbelievable suffering gay people have to endure.

Seriously, please just step back a minute and try to understand the purpose of this thread, the people who might be reading it, and how your words and attitude come across.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I watched the program. Now shoot me down if you will, BUT, it was only in very recent years i came to terms with people being gay.*
*Being a child of the 50's it was very much " frowned " on being gay. It wasn't taught to me that gays were wrong, ( as in from my family ). But it was something " we all knew". *
*I am ashamed i thought the way i did, but i will never understand why people that are against gay people, feel the need to attack them. It makes no sense to me.*
*When i was against gay people, the thought of attacking them, or shouting abuse would never have crossed my mind.*
*I have my daughter to thank for opening my eyes. Also, for anyone in any doubt about gays, may i suggest you watch this film.*
*



*


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> An interesting question is if someone is straight would they feel comfortable going to a gay event such as a gay nightclub or bar?


I did. Once a month. I went with my (straight) friend and her gay brother. Used to look forward to those nights, which is unusual for someone who doesn't like gojng out generally.



MollySmith said:


> Can I put a little perspective here for some who think a little name calling is what the programme was about and.....please go back to the first post on here I urged you to _*watch*_ it rather than make leaps into what constitutes assault. Here's the source..
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40643461
> 
> ...


I clicked and read the link. I've also tried watching the documentary on catch up, but my Now TV box has decided it doesn't like the terrestrial channels. :Banghead


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

This is what Sussex police class as hate crime
*"When is hate serious enough to report?*

If you are insulted? Offended? Scared? Threatened? Shoved? Attacked?

All of the above. If it happens, it's serious enough*."
https://sussex.police.uk/advice/protect-yourself-and-others/hate-crime/
*
I've suffered all but the last of those in my time. Not once did I feel it was a hate crime. Just some dick head with an ego or drunk


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> The bit in bold is ridiculous on so many levels, I don't even know how to address it.
> 
> Please stop trying to equalize homophobia with a few incidents a straight person might encounter. It is incredibly dismissive of the unbelievable suffering gay people have to endure.
> 
> Seriously, please just step back a minute and try to understand the purpose of this thread, the people who might be reading it, and how your words and attitude come across.


Seriously you've never met any gay people who lead a happy life alongside straight people without any issues? Where do you live?

Now I've not said for a minute that homophobia doesn't exist. But it's not a blanket case of _"unbelievable suffering gay people have to endure" _Which seems to be suggesting all gay people suffer at the hands of ignorance. All I'm trying to show, through my experiences, is that not every straight person is homophobic, not every gay person is the innocent victim and the majority (of the very many gay people I know) lead a trouble free life.

What's wrong with any of that? Doesn't mean I'm dismissing anything, just showing the other side of the coin and provide a more rounded discussion. Thought that might be seen as positive.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Goblin said:


> An interesting question is if someone is straight would they feel comfortable going to a gay event such as a gay nightclub or bar?


Totally. In fact my wife and I first met properly in Manchesters Canal Street through mutual friends .....we were both there enjoying lunch in separate groups.

And we both enjoy Brighton Pride, too. Even though we are straight and married 

And it was only about three or fours years ago now whilst walking through Brighton one evening (on the Friday before Pride) in a group that we got set upon ... yes, they were targeting our gay friends but about half a dozen young guys started to run at us (using not very nice language). Unfortunately as one lad went past me he tripped over my foot and fell into the road which rather burst their bubble and gave our friends a chance to get away ...... funnily enough when he turned and saw it was a 'straight bloke' that had tripped him up he was surprising quiet.

And I have seen and heard other incidences ...but not nearly so many any my friends have to put up with.

Of course if they 'didn't flaunt themselves' (by walking down the road in public?) then people might just think they are friends ...but why should they ...my wife and I were holding hands (flaunting our heterosexuality?)

I admire those that have stood up and been counted. Each generation will benefit.



rona said:


> I've suffered all but the last of those in my time. Not once did I feel it was a hate crime. Just some dick head with an ego or drunk


No one has ever beaten me up for being* straight. *Yet you can get beaten up for being* gay. *That's to me is the difference.

J


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> No one has ever beaten me up for being* straight. *Yet you can get beaten up for being* gay. *That's to me is the difference.


I've been abused because of my gender


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Seriously you've never met any gay people who lead a happy life alongside straight people without any issues? Where do you live?
> 
> Now I've not said for a minute that homophobia doesn't exist. But it's not a blanket case of _"unbelievable suffering gay people have to endure" _Which seems to be suggesting all gay people suffer at the hands of ignorance. All I'm trying to show, through my experiences, is that not every straight person is homophobic, not every gay person is the innocent victim and the majority (of the very many gay people I know) lead a trouble free life.
> 
> What's wrong with any of that? Doesn't mean I'm dismissing anything, just showing the other side of the coin and provide a more rounded discussion. Thought that might be seen as positive.


When did I say I didn't know any gay people who lead a happy life? You do make some leaps!

Of course there are gay people who live happy, unfettered lives. However I would argue that there are not any gay people who have NEVER had issues with homophobia in some form or another. And yes, gays suffer unbelievably because of nothing other than their sexual orientation. That you refuse to even acknowledge that much is a form of denial that is hurtful to the entire community.

Balance is not equalizing discrimination and showing that it happens to everyone. In order for discrimination to be addressed, first it has to be acknowledged, and your posts DO dismiss the suffering that happens because of homophobia. The fact that you can't even see how your posts do trivialize the issue is in itself part of the issue.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

rona said:


> I've been abused because of my gender


That's sexism. Misogyny.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Balance is not equalizing discrimination and showing that it happens to everyone. In order for discrimination to be addressed, first it has to be acknowledged


This...a thousand times this!


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

IME, a lot of straight women like going to gay clubs cos you don't get harassed by drunken men. Women tend to be a lot more polite when they chat you up. Although... I have had a few women get a bit annoyed with me. But I think that's more embarassment than hurt pride.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> That's sexism. Misogyny.


Yes, very similar to homophobia in *some* instances, just a different name.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> When did I say I didn't know any gay people who lead a happy life? You do make some leaps!
> 
> Of course there are gay people who live happy, unfettered lives. However I would argue that there are not any gay people who have NEVER had issues with homophobia in some form or another. And yes, gays suffer unbelievably because of nothing other than their sexual orientation. That you refuse to even acknowledge that much is a form of denial that is hurtful to the entire community.
> 
> Balance is not equalizing discrimination and showing that it happens to everyone. In order for discrimination to be addressed, first it has to be acknowledged, and your posts DO dismiss the suffering that happens because of homophobia. The fact that you can't even see how your posts do trivialize the issue is in itself part of the issue.


Ok, so I now have to start every post with "A chap called James was chased down the road by a bunch of homophobic thugs but....." or similar before putting the other side of the story.

And you question me claiming you don't know any happy gay people living alongside straight people (it was a question by the way, that's what a "?" means). Then accuse me of being in denial just because I don't mention cases of abuse I've come across. Tad hypocritical don't you think.

You've seen all those programs on cruelty to pets. Don't you also like to hear about the greater number of pets that have a happy and loved life? Doesn't the other side of that coin give you hope?

I'll bow out of this now (well I'll try ) because it's just pathetic if you can't have a full and rounded discussion. After all what's wrong with a reply along the lines of "yes that's true, very many gay people live happily alongside straight people"? Or are do you just like calling people offensive and the like? Here's a tip, any good conversation grows and progresses by all angles being discussed. See I've already failed at bowing out


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

I see someone asked what the opposite of homophobia is, well, the opposite is not being a bigoted homophobic fool!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> After all what's wrong with a reply along the lines of "yes that's true, very many gay people live happily alongside straight people"? Or are do you just like calling people offensive and the like? Here's a tip, any good conversation grows and progresses by all angles being discussed.


You need an ameliajane to converse with


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

O


rona said:


> You need an ameliajane to converse with


Ahh yes, I came across her earlier, thought it was nice she didn't call be bigited, dismissive homophobic idiot. It made a change, thanks @ameliajane


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I ^£$&^&£% HATE judgmental people with a passion, why can't people just let other people get on with there life without judging. I've had grief and been called weird because i don't go on the piss or because i go on holiday by myself, some don't speak to me any more


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

rona said:


> Yes, very similar to homophobia in *some* instances, just a different name.


Some perhaps. 
It's not like over half the world population is gay though. 
Nor has it ever been illegal or considered immoral and wrong to be a woman.

None of that is to dismiss misogyny either BTW, I just don't know how useful the comparisons are before they start sounding trite.

I would not sit next to someone recovering from amputation surgery and commiserate based on my experience with a skinned knee you know?


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> IME, a lot of straight women like going to gay clubs cos you don't get harassed by drunken men.


 I've met a few women in gay clubs, the end of the night went something like this.....She- "Its a shame your gay i could just eat you up" Me-"Eat away, i'm not gay i'm just here with a friend"


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

steveshanks said:


> I've met a few women in gay clubs, the end of the night went something like this.....She- "Its a shame your gay i could just eat you up" Me-"Eat away, i'm not gay i'm just here with a friend"


Now that's just sneaky!


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

MilleD said:


> Now that's just sneaky!


 Oh! it was by accident, well the first time anyway LOL.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Some perhaps.
> It's not like over half the world population is gay though.
> Nor has it ever been illegal or considered immoral and wrong to be a woman.
> 
> ...


Just to add to this, you don't have to go through the worry of having to come out as a woman as your parents obviously already know that!


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, so I now have to start every post with "A chap called James was chased down the road by a bunch of homophobic thugs but....." or similar before putting the other side of the story.


That's the point you're missing. 
There is no "other side of the story."

When someone presents the issue of gay men and women being beaten and killed for no reason other than being gay, you don't counter that with "well, many of them aren't beaten though." What purpose does that serve? Do you think the family grieving their dead loved one finds comfort in the fact that other gay people weren't killed? Do you think the person recovering from a beating finds comfort in the fact that not all gays are beaten?

People are not routinely harassed, abused, beaten and killed for being straight. There is no "other side of the coin" and suggesting that there is, is seriously lacking in compassion and understanding IMO.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> wrong to be a woman


Oh yes I've been told I'm wrong to be a woman several times



ouesi said:


> I just don't know how useful the comparisons are before they start sounding trite.


You have no idea to what I am referring.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> That's the point you're missing.
> There is no "other side of the story."
> 
> When someone presents the issue of gay men and women being beaten and killed for no reason other than being gay, you don't counter that with "well, many of them aren't beaten though." What purpose does that serve? Do you think the family grieving their dead loved one finds comfort in the fact that other gay people weren't killed? Do you think the person recovering from a beating finds comfort in the fact that not all gays are beaten?
> ...


Fair enough. All gay people are doomed to be beaten and abused. Let's not worry, or give hope, that that isn't the general case. I'm pretty sure any gay person reading this thread, who's experienced the worse this world has to offer, will take comfort in knowing this isn't always the case. Sorry again for giving hope and showing the other side of the coin. Open your mind and eyes.

Edit
Oh crap, didn't bow out


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Sorry again for giving hope and showing the other side of the coin.


How was your cute little anecdote of you as a heterosexual being harassed by homosexuals intended as a hopeful and inspiring story exactly?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I haven't seen it on this thread but I often see the statement; "I'm fine with gay people, as long as they're not hurting anyone" or something along those lines. I find it really puzzling as really it's the same as saying "I'm fine with brown-haired people, as long as they're not hurting anyone". 

There's no link between the two and also it's bizarrely conditional, like a gay murderer would change your opinion of gay people as a whole, which kind of means you weren't fine in the first place. Perhaps it's me being over-sensitive but would be interested to know if anyone else had noticed this?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)




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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> How was your cute little anecdote of you as a heterosexual being harassed by homosexuals intended as a hopeful and inspiring story exactly?


Wasn't meant to be. It was in response to another post asking a direct question. You know that though. And it was just the one homosexual, no more, again if you had read the post properly you would know that.

I've been in very many gay pubs without issue, which is why the incident I mentioned sticks out in my mind. Just as my sister and her partner go to many non-gay pubs without incident.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

MilleD said:


> Do you worry about how every person you end up telling is going to take it?


Kind of, but to be honest a lot of it is just I don't want to make other people feel awkward. For example, I could be having a conversation with someone and happen to mention my OH in passing and then they might ask me a question about "him". It's then a question of do I correct them and say "well my OH is a she" or do I just go along with referring to her as a male? When I do correct people, as much as I try to do it in a nice way people often end up feeling awkward and I can tell they feel bad for their mistake. I don't want them to feel awkward, but if they are someone I am likely to see more of then I feel it better to correct them at this stage than further down the line. If I'm not likely to see them again then I often don't say anything.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sairy said:


> Kind of, but to be honest a lot of it is just I don't want to make other people feel awkward. For example, I could be having a conversation with someone and happen to mention my OH in passing and then they might ask me a question about "him". It's then a question of do I correct them and say "well my OH is a she" or do I just go along with referring to her as a male? When I do correct people, as much as I try to do it in a nice way people often end up feeling awkward and I can tell they feel bad for their mistake. I don't want them to feel awkward, but if they are someone I am likely to see more of then I feel it better to correct them at this stage than further down the line. If I'm not likely to see them again then I often don't say anything.


That's kind of sad 

Can I just say though, you sound like a really nice person to care about whether you make them awkward or not.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I've been abused because of being too skinny too fat...etc etc. but in saying so it's making a connection but it's far from the level of violence about which this thread was set up to discuss! FFS, get a grip here.

I don't equate being called a fat bitch to being beaten within an inch of my life or indeed losing a life over, a comparable event. If those trying to measure or compare had watched or at least engaged with the documentary before leaping on a bandwagon whose wheels had fallen off a long time ago - may have ascertained. Being beaten up or abused is not a competitive sport but I fear some might read this thread and think it was.

The crime of beating someone up because of their sexuality is a crime in it's own right. Please show some respect to the victims and the events in the programme and those who stories go untold and observe it in it's own right. I really don't want to ask a mod to close this but I will.

Get a grip and have some kindness to those PF'ers who have been kind and shared their experiences, it takes courage to do that.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> I've been abused because of being too skinny too fat...etc etc. but in saying so it's making a connection but it's far from the level of violence about which this thread was set up to discuss! FFS, get a grip here.
> 
> I don't equate being called a fat bitch to being beaten within an inch of my life or indeed losing a life over, a comparable event. If those trying to measure or compare had watched or at least engaged with the documentary before leaping on a bandwagon whose wheels had fallen off a long time ago - may have ascertained. Being beaten up or abused is not a competitive sport but I fear some might read this thread and think it was.
> 
> ...


Well said. But let's also show the whole of the UK isn't a bunch of homophobic idiots and you can have a happy life.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've come to the conclusion humans are still basically tribal. The hatred against other 'tribes' is just a desperation to fit in with the one you've chosen to identify with. We've had it with football supporters, gang culture, racism and attacks on any group which can be identified as 'different'. I'm not so fond of labelling particular acts of mindless violence as hate crime depending on the victim. The sort of scum who target people different from themselves are just mindless thugs and usually cowards to boot no matter where they choose to stick their stupid boots in.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

You really just can't help yourself, can you?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> You really just can't help yourself, can you?


Ok, so the UK is full of homophobics. Enjoy your world because the majority of us get on really well. If you have issues with that it's your problem. These TV programs whole aim is to exploit the minority. Now that's not denying there is a minority, but it's not the norm'.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Clearly the answer to the question is 'no'.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

That's not what I'm talking about. 

You are very dismissive of everything that isn't part of your own experience. You come across on here as though you regard yourself as the pattern for humanity and anyone who has different experiences is just wrong.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Elles said:


> Clearly the answer to the question is 'no'.


You're not kidding.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, so the UK is full of homophobics. Enjoy your world because the majority of us get on really well. If you have issues with that it's your problem. These TV programs whole aim is to exploit the minority. Now that's not denying there is a minority, but it's not the norm'.


I don't know, I feel the programme highlighted the most extreme of what the majority of gay people face. Unwanted banter to murder; they are at extreme ends of the same line.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

I'm trying really hard to understand how one makes the leap from "let's acknowledge that homophobia exists and endeavor to educate and hopefully eradicate as much of it as possible" to "the UK is full of homophobics."


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> I know, so incredibly shocking and his grandmother, oh bless her. I've DM'd his partner who is on Twitter to ask if they want me to design their wedding stationery.
> 
> The change in James was sobering, it's what I've seen with domestic violence victims and major trauma, and it's clearly having an affect on their relationship.


That's so lovely! I hope that, if they don't take you up on it, it's because they're completely inundated with similar offers


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> I did. Once a month. I went with my (straight) friend and her gay brother. Used to look forward to those nights, which is unusual for someone who doesn't like gojng out generally.
> 
> I clicked and read the link. I've also tried watching the documentary on catch up, but my Now TV box has decided it doesn't like the terrestrial channels. :Banghead


Some of my best nights out have been in gay clubs


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

bearcub said:


> I don't know, I feel the programme highlighted the most extreme of what the majority of gay people face. Unwanted banter to murder; they are at extreme ends of the same line.


That's exactly the point I'm trying to show. There is a very happy medium that wasn't shown. I've seen it many times, doesn't mean there are aren't homophobics out there though. Perhaps there should be, considering it the 50th anniversary, a TV program showing those gay people living very happily with everyone else without issue and showing how far we have progressed as a society. Doesn't make good telly for the masses though does it.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

MilleD said:


> That's kind of sad
> 
> Can I just say though, you sound like a really nice person to care about whether you make them awkward or not.


She really is, despite the fact that she insisted on drinking coke whilst I did a great impression of a lush by chugging large glasses of wine


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, so the UK is full of homophobics. Enjoy your world because the majority of us get on really well. If you have issues with that it's your problem. These TV programs whole aim is to exploit the minority. Now that's not denying there is a minority, but it's not the norm'.


So 147% rise is a minority?

I don't think 147% rise is a minority, I think it's shocking and that's why I started this thread. That @Sairy @ouesi me and others on here have all said that something happened to a friend or to them isn't a minority. It's an event that happened which should never have happened. It might not happen to anyone you know in your world but it did to someone. That you can term it as 'these TV programs' as exploitation as opposed to raising awareness speaks volumes to me about all you have to learn. If you have nothing better to say, don't say it - especially when you haven't even watched the programme. It's pointless, a broken record and undermines anyone who has a story to tell and the validity of their words.

Dont' reply with some pithy remark (probably some tedious stat about 147%). It's not necessary.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MollySmith said:


> So 147% rise is a minority?
> 
> I don't think 147% rise is a minority, I think it's shocking and that's why I started this thread. That @Sairy @ouesi me and others on here have all said that something happened to a friend or to them isn't a minority. It's an event that happened which should never have happened. It might not happen to anyone you know in your world but it did to someone. That you can term it as 'these TV programs' as exploitation as opposed to raising awareness speaks volumes to me about all you have to learn. If you have nothing better to say, don't say it - especially when you haven't even watched the programme. It's pointless, a broken record and undermines anyone who has a story to tell and the validity of their words.
> 
> Dont' reply with some pithy remark. It's not necessary.


That's fine. So your "we had something happened to a friend" overides my "I know many living without issue" is overwhelming proof.

Fair enough. I see a reasoned debate isn't going to happen on this thread. I've never said homophobic isn't real, but you and others seem in denial that many gay people don't have issues. Why is that, because you watched a TV show?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Wow. That's disgusting even for you.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's fine. So your "we had something happened to a friend" overides my "I know many living without issue" is overwhelming proof.
> 
> Fair enough. I see a reasoned debate isn't going to happen on this thread. I've never said homophobic isn't real, but you and others seem in denial that many gay people don't have issues. Why is that, because you watched a TV show?


What exactly do you feel needs to be debated?

And to tell people who have shared the loss of loved ones that they're in denial and get their experiences off a TV show is... I don't even know the word. But definitely speaks volumes.

FWIW @Dr Pepper I'm not posting on this thread to convince you or people like you of anything. 
I'm posting on this thread so that those who need to hear it know they're not alone and that they do have allies.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's fine. So your "we had something happened to a friend" overides my "I know many living without issue" is overwhelming proof.
> 
> Fair enough. I see a reasoned debate isn't going to happen on this thread. I've never said homophobic isn't real, but you and others seem in denial that many gay people don't have issues. Why is that, because you watched a TV show?


https://tinybuddha.com/blog/avoid-g...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's fine. So your "we had something happened to a friend" overides my "I know many living without issue" is overwhelming proof.
> 
> Fair enough. I see a reasoned debate isn't going to happen on this thread. I've never said homophobic isn't real, but you and others seem in denial that many gay people don't have issues. Why is that, because you watched a TV show?


And the pithy reply that completely misses the point...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> So 147% rise is a minority?


Is the 147% all against gay people?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rona said:


> Is the 147% all against gay people?


"Fifty years ago, gay sex between men in private was decriminalised in England and Wales. Despite this, hate crimes against gay people have persisted, and the number of attacks recorded by police has been rising. There were 7,194 in England and Wales in the year to April 2016. Campaigners say this isn't the full picture, though, as many victims still don't report assaults. Six people affected by hate crimes share their stories. [bbc]


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> What exactly do you feel needs to be debated?
> 
> And to tell people who have shared the loss of loved ones that they're in denial and get their experiences off a TV show is... I don't even know the word. But definitely speaks volumes.
> 
> ...


I'm posting to give hope to those in need and have given real live examples on the progress made since 1967. I won't apologise for that or be further drawn into your pathetic argument for whatever your agenda is.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

@simplysardonic @westie~ma can you please close this thread, sorry to be a nuisance when you have lives to lead but I tried my best. Thanks.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Closed at OP's request.


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