# Regsitering with TICA & FIFE



## xxSaffronxx

I had read lots of comments from you all about not liking the GCCF shows much and prefer TICA & FIFE.
All my cats are GCCF registered. I am allowed to dual register with TICA or FIFE too arent I?

And if I do is it just the min 4 generation pedigree papers that they need?
And if my pedigree had GCCF Grand Champions in it - are these still valid for FIFE & TICA as well?


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## Schimmel

Yep you can dual register. All ours are dual registered although we only register kittens with TICA now.

It's very easy to register with TICA, and can all be done online  You need the pink slip and the pedigree certificate signed by the breeder. The GCCF titles do not mean anything in TICA though. In other words, if your cat is a GCCF Champion, then when registered with TICA, the title will not be acknowledged so to speak.

This explains the registration process very simply: Importing GCCF or FIFe cats into TICA


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## rottiesloveragdolls

Schimmel said:


> Yep you can dual register. All ours are dual registered although we only register kittens with TICA now.
> 
> It's very easy to register with TICA, and can all be done online  You need the pink slip and the pedigree certificate signed by the breeder. The GCCF titles do not mean anything in TICA though. In other words, if your cat is a GCCF Champion, then when registered with TICA, the title will not be acknowledged so to speak.
> 
> This explains the registration process very simply: Importing GCCF or FIFe cats into TICA


I have all pink slips, and pedigrees, but not all signed by the breeders  so what would i need to do if i wanted to dual as well?


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## Schimmel

rottiesloveragdolls said:


> I have all pink slips, and pedigrees, but not all signed by the breeders  so what would i need to do if i wanted to dual as well?


If you don't have one signed by the breeder, you can just get a GCCF Certified Pedigree. Don't know what they charge for the cert. peds. though.


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## rottiesloveragdolls

Schimmel said:


> If you don't have one signed by the breeder, you can just get a GCCF Certified Pedigree. Don't know what they charge for the cert. peds. though.


I think its about £20 each, and i would need, 5  as the others are signed,


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## xxSaffronxx

How do I get a cert pedigree from the GCCF? The pedigree I have from my breeder for Pumba was incorrect and she has amended her records but not sent me a new pedigree cert yet - even though i have asked a couple of times


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## rottiesloveragdolls

xxSaffronxx said:


> How do I get a cert pedigree from the GCCF? The pedigree I have from my breeder for Pumba was incorrect and she has amended her records but not sent me a new pedigree cert yet - even though i have asked a couple of times


I know you have to apply to the GCCF for them you give all details to them reg no`s ect, and send them the money,


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## Schimmel

xxSaffronxx said:


> How do I get a cert pedigree from the GCCF? The pedigree I have from my breeder for Pumba was incorrect and she has amended her records but not sent me a new pedigree cert yet - even though i have asked a couple of times


Keep hassling the breeder because she/he should send you an amended, signed pedigree.



rottiesloveragdolls said:


> I think its about £20 each, and i would need, 5 as the others are signed,


Ouch, can you not get new ones from the breeders?


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## rottiesloveragdolls

Ouch, can you not get new ones from the breeders?[/QUOTE]

hmmm never thought of that


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## Schimmel

Well I'd be going down that route first before paying out that amount of money lol. The breeders should easily be able to print you off a new pedigree.


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## rottiesloveragdolls

I can only but ask?


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## Saikou

xxSaffronxx said:


> I had read lots of comments from you all about not liking the GCCF shows much and prefer TICA & FIFE.
> All my cats are GCCF registered. I am allowed to dual register with TICA or FIFE too arent I?
> 
> And if I do is it just the min 4 generation pedigree papers that they need?
> And if my pedigree had GCCF Grand Champions in it - are these still valid for FIFE & TICA as well?


You can try a TICA show without having registered your cat with them to see if you like it before you lay out the expense of registering with them. If your cat does well you would then need to register to be able to claim any points won.

I may be wrong, but I think their standard for burmese is different based more on the American look of burmese and not the European look. Last time I read anything they were campaigning to get the European look established, but I don't breed burmese so I am not sure it may be worth speaking to a burmese breeder who shows under TICA to find out where they are at.


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## xxSaffronxx

Saikou said:


> You can try a TICA show without having registered your cat with them to see if you like it before you lay out the expense of registering with them. If your cat does well you would then need to register to be able to claim any points won.
> 
> I may be wrong, but I think their standard for burmese is different based more on the American look of burmese and not the European look. Last time I read anything they were campaigning to get the European look established, but I don't breed burmese so I am not sure it may be worth speaking to a burmese breeder who shows under TICA to find out where they are at.


Thanks kim thats very helpful!


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## Selk67U2

> I am allowed to dual register with TICA or FIFE too arent I?


*Yep all my cats are FIFe & Tica registered ZowieYou can try a FIFe show out too without registering. If you like it and want to claim titles then you have to register*


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## Biawhiska

why not form your own opinion on the gccf first? have you ever shown with them before or been to a show? i've found them good. i've found tica not so great with admin etc...


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## Saikou

I think a lot of feelings towards one registry or another tend to be biased by how well peoples cats have done under them. If your cat gets withheld under one and gets titles under another, which are you going to sing the praises of and think is better  Its just human nature.

The only way to know for sure is to try them all out and see which one you prefer. You might find that different registries suit different cats even.


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## Selk67U2

> Saikou
> You might find that different registries suit different cats even.


*Very good point that
I only have 2 cats that I can show Tica, because they can cope with the constant back & forth to the rings.
I can show 4 in FIFe as it's a bit less manic, lol. *


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## xxSaffronxx

fluffypurrs said:


> why not form your own opinion on the gccf first? have you ever shown with them before or been to a show? i've found them good. i've found tica not so great with admin etc...


no im new to showing fluff - i would like to try both Gccf and Tica before i decide. Thats why i was asking you guys


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## Angeli

Saikou said:


> I think a lot of feelings towards one registry or another tend to be biased by how well peoples cats have done under them. If your cat gets withheld under one and gets titles under another, which are you going to sing the praises of and think is better  Its just human nature.
> 
> The only way to know for sure is to try them all out and see which one you prefer. You might find that different registries suit different cats even.


I only show with GCCF but I have also heard it said that many people prefer the others because their cats havent done as well shown under GCCF. This certainly seems to be the case for a couple of exhibitors I know.

As I understand it you can get to title your cat in one show???
Whats the average attendance of a TICA or FIFE show?

Ive never been to see how the others run things different from the GCCF but certain things about TICA or FIFE certainly wouldn't appeal to me, for instance having to stand by your cat all day waiting for it to be called up for judging. What do you do when you want to spend a penny and I dont just mean visiting the loo? Is there an interval where you can chill out or get some lunch?

It just all sounds too restrictive for me.


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## Saikou

I have never been to a FIFE show, but TICA I am in 2 minds about. I do like the format of a TICA show, and yes there is a break for lunch for the judges, although the one I went to I don't remember it being announced everyone just seemed to know. If anything I think TICA seemed less restrictive than the GCCF format, going from ring to ring is not as fraught as it sounds especially if you only have one cat.

TICA you can get titles in one show, a cat I bred made Triple Gr Ch in one 2 day show. As to whether it is easier its swings and roundabouts, there are no withholds, so you amass points if you are the only cat in your colour, division and breed regardless of quality (disqualifying traits aside). To get a title you do have to final, and that is against all breeds, but then it does look easier to final if you are a breed where not many of them are shown. The TICA show I went to had loads of bengals, so if they only pick the finalists from Best of Breed or Best of Division then your chances of finaling, even as a stunning example of the breed, are less than say a mediocre cat of another breed where there is only one or two being shown. Thats the way it looked anyway. I can not answer for other breeds but siamese and orientals there does seem to be different emphasis based on certain attributes between TICA and the GCCF, you are penalised for things under the GCCF that you wouldn't be under TICA for instance.


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## Angeli

Titles are harder to gain under the GCCF system.

In a GCCF show, you can be the only cat judged in a class or even in the whole hall but if you dont come up to standard then you're withheld. Now that might seem harsh to some but at the end of the day its the right decision as standards should be upheld regardless of whether there is 1 cat or 10 cats in the class.


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## Selk67U2

> In a GCCF show, you can be the only cat judged in a class or even in the whole hall but if you dont come up to standard then you're withheld. Now that might seem harsh to some but at the end of the day its the right decision as standards should be upheld regardless of whether there is 1 cat or 10 cats in the class.


*Thats the same for FIFe too. Though I agree it does seem to happen in GCCF more.*


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## Schimmel

Saikou said:


> I think a lot of feelings towards one registry or another tend to be biased by how well peoples cats have done under them. If your cat gets withheld under one and gets titles under another, which are you going to sing the praises of and think is better  Its just human nature.


Oh my goodness........how can you generalise like that? Many, many, exhibitors show under more than 1 governing body, have cats that do well under all of them and still prefer one particular showing format. For example, my cats have done very well and gained titles under GCCF, they have then gone on to do very well and gain titles under TICA. My own personal preference is for the way TICA run their shows, it certainly isn't because my cats didn't do well under GCCF as proven by my GCCF titled cats. Kelly's cats do very well at GCCF and very well under TICA (and possibly FB as they show with them as well to the best of my knowledge).

And as for the comments made by people implying it's easy to gain a TICA title, what a load of total ********  I've shown enough cats with GCCF to know just how easy it can be to gain a GCCF title. The difference is that when I show with TICA, my cats are not being judged solely against their breed, I am competing with every breed at the show for a Final place. I have had Ori's at a TICA show who have been the only Ori's there who did not make a Final. The reaon is quite simple, the other breeds on the day conformed to the Standard better than the cats I had there did. If there are a load of "bengals" in a TICA show, one particular judge will choose 2 of those Bengals for a Final and not even choose a cat who might be "mediocre" and quite frankly to imply they would says little for the ethics of the TICA judges  And get your facts right Saikou! With TICA, 1BOB and 2BOB can both be placed in a Final and will be as happens time and time again. If 2BOB conforms better to the standard than a BOB in another breed then that BOB doesn't Final. I don't recall ever seeing you exhibit at a TICA show Saikou?


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## Selk67U2

*FIFe shows are the same as GCCF, in that you can have 3 cats in a class competing for the certificate or just one, does'nt mean your gonna get it. They can with hold it whenever they want too!!
Tica is not easy to get titles in either. Especially in the All Breed rings, for some reason it does tend to be the short hairs that get picked. Last Tica show I went to in every All Breed ring there was only 1 or 2 long hairs picked. So even though the cat has enough points to claim a title, you can'y until you get the right number of finals!!*


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## may

Selk67U2 said:


> *FIFe shows are the same as GCCF, in that you can have 3 cats in a class competing for the certificate or just one, does'nt mean your gonna get it. They can with hold it whenever they want too!!
> Tica is not easy to get titles in either. Especially in the All Breed rings, for some reason it does tend to be the short hairs that get picked. Last Tica show I went to in every All Breed ring there was only 1 or 2 long hairs picked. So even though the cat has enough points to claim a title, you can'y until you get the right number of finals!!*


I 100% agree with you  "Some'' people say that Tica and Fife titles are cheep titles ! what a load of Cr*p it is not easy to final at Tica and the classes are MUCH bigger than at the gccf shows, your cat has to be of the quality to final,
I have shown under all three governing bodies and TICA in my opinion is by far the best,


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## Saikou

Schimmel said:


> Oh my goodness........how can you generalise like that?


Quite easily actually. I am fed up of seeing biased comments from ex GCCF exhibitors, who only really moved to another registry because of all the furore over the official magazine, trying to persuade others that all GCCF shows are unfriendly etc. I have even seen people go as far as to say that cats are manhandled under the GCCF, yet those same people were perfectly happy to show their cats under the GCCF for years with no complaint. They had been perfectly happy with the GCCF up until the magazine issue and actually in the past had even denigrated other registries titles including TICA,pronouncing them easier to get than the GCCF themselves before the boot moved to the other foot. Until then they had never thought of showing under another registry. I actually showed under TICA BEFORE the magazine issue, because I had a genuine interest in finding out about it. My comment on the process made plus and minor points for both registries if you read it properly, and I did make the point that to get a title you have to be judged against all breeds!



Schimmel said:


> And get your facts right Saikou! With TICA, 1BOB and 2BOB can both be placed in a Final and will be as happens time and time again. If 2BOB conforms better to the standard than a BOB in another breed then that BOB doesn't Final.


Actually your comment proves my point. If you have a breed, like Bengals where a lot are shown - say 6 + stunning examples of the breed, any one of whom could be a winner in their own right, then the ones placed 3 - 6BOB may not have a chance of finaling where a breed with only a couple exhibits who may well be more mediocre examples of their breed do have a chance of finaling. That draw back was actually pointed out to me by someone who has shown with TICA in the UK since they first started, so I took it they knew what they were talking about.

Just as an aside, aren't TICA UK still on isolated status, so UK exhibitors only need half the points overseas exhibitors need to gain the same titles ?


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## Biawhiska

so after all this i guess it's up to you to decide what style of show will suit you and your cats 

as a personal preference i am going to stick with the gccf.


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## Schimmel

Saikou said:


> Actually your comment proves my point.


You had a point  Must have missed that somehow (I think I must have been a blonde in a previous life)    Never mind  I shall happily continue to show my mediocre cats under TICA


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## Siamese Kelly

Angeli said:


> I only show with GCCF but I have also heard it said that many people prefer the others because their cats havent done as well shown under GCCF. This certainly seems to be the case for a couple of exhibitors I know.
> 
> As I understand it you can get to title your cat in one show???
> Whats the average attendance of a TICA or FIFE show?
> 
> Ive never been to see how the others run things different from the GCCF but certain things about TICA or FIFE certainly wouldn't appeal to me, for instance having to stand by your cat all day waiting for it to be called up for judging. What do you do when you want to spend a penny and I dont just mean visiting the loo? Is there an interval where you can chill out or get some lunch?
> 
> It just all sounds too restrictive for me.


Have you been yet to a Tica/Fife show and if so did you not enjoy it very much?Just being nosyLol


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## Selk67U2

> You had a point Must have missed that somewhere (I think I must have been a blonde in a previous life Never mind I shall happily continue to show my mediocre cats under TICA


*Mediocre I think not somehow!*


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## Schimmel

Siamese Kelly said:


> Have you been yet to a Tica/Fife show and if so did you not enjoy it very much?Just being nosyLol


Kelly, as I've never done an FB show, how do they compare with TICA?


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## Angeli

Siamese Kelly said:


> Have you been yet to a Tica/Fife show and if so did you not enjoy it very much?Just being nosyLol


Hi Siamese Kelly,

I havent been to either yet. There was plans to go with some friends but most of these shows tend to be held in the south so might have to wait till theres one closer to me.
Would just be going as a visitor though.


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## Siamese Kelly

Schimmel said:


> Kelly, as I've never done an FB show, how do they compare with TICA?


Ross says there not as hectic,but very friendly and have a different standard of points to both GCCF and TICA. They are similar in the way you win titles to the GCCF ie collecting CC's / CAC's -and really exciting if your lucky enough to be up for BIS. If you are lucky your cat will graduate through the day and get through the different knockout stages ie the best Siamese Boy will meet the best Siamese girl eg Seal Point boy vs Red Point Girl. The winner then goes up against all other corresponding winners of that group eg Ori, Peterbald for best adult. Best adult then meets best Neuter, Kitten and Junior (who have all had their own knockout process) for overall section winner. On the downside their is a lot of standing around as you may not be judged until the afternoon and you may get knocked out and only be judged once all day. Another good thing is you handle your cat yourself and take them up to the judging table where it is up to you to get the best out of your cat (similar to a dog show)


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## may

Angeli said:


> Titles are harder to gain under the GCCF system.
> 
> In a GCCF show, you can be the only cat judged in a class or even in the whole hall but if you dont come up to standard then you're withheld. Now that might seem harsh to some but at the end of the day its the right decision as standards should be upheld regardless of whether there is 1 cat or 10 cats in the class.


That is not right
At Tica shows if you don't come up to standard then you're not finaled !
So how is it harder under the GCCF to make your cat up
And it is similar with FB
Do you show at Tica shows Angeli ?


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## Saikou

Schimmel said:


> I shall happily continue to show my mediocre cats under TICA


I have no idea where all this unprovoked vitriol comes from, my comments were purely my take on whether it was easier to gain a title under TICA.

Only you have put "mediocre" and your cats in the same sentance not me - but then you should know


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## Angeli

may said:


> That is not right
> At Tica shows if you don't come up to standard then you're not finaled !
> So how is it harder under the GCCF to make your cat up
> And it is similar with FB
> Do you show at Tica shows Angeli ?


No I havent shown at TICA and I wont either as there is not enough reason for me to do so and I dont want to be tied to a cat pen all day either.
However as I stated in my earlier post on this thread I do know other people that do both GCCF and TICA and it is they who have said their cats have titled easier under the other system.

Whether their opinion is right or wrong I wont question it, the same as when people say neuters are easier to title because they are judged less severely than an entire cat.


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## Selk67U2

> the same as when people say neuters are easier to title because they are judged less severely than an entire cat.


*Never heard that one before*



> No I havent shown at TICA and I wont either as there is not enough reason for me to do so and I dont want to be tied to a cat pen all day either.


*I don't feel tied to my pen all day at FIFe or Tica shows. I like being with my cats. I wander about chatting & having a laugh with my friends and looking at stalls ect.*


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## Angeli

I like being with my cats at a show but to a point. I am not one of those that is happy to sit watching over my cat all day and blocking the aisles up for other people trying to get to their cats.

I put my cat in the pen when I get there, feed her then go for my breakfast. I get back to her 20 minutes before judging starts and give her a quick groom.
I feed her again when allowed back in and occasionally check on her throughout the day.

My cats are quite happy with that arrangement and are usually asleep for most of the time.

On Saturday I was at the Durham CC and it was a very warm day and most of it was spent outside thankfully. The hall was unbearably hot and stuffy and the show was closed early because of this. I would not have wanted to be in there nearly all day.


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## Angeli

Selk67U2 said:


> *Never heard that one before*
> 
> Im surprised you havent heard that one!
> 
> When I first started showing I was advised by another exhibitor to show a neuter as they are supposedly not judged to the same standards as an entire.
> 
> And Ive also heard a judge QUOTE it.


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## Selk67U2

*Hmmm, take your word for it, but not where I show. The cats are judged on their breed standard. I show both and I hav'nt found any difference.*


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## Biawhiska

That's interesting but I doubt an entire cat is judged more  

I find my cat settles more if I am not by the cage all day. He seems more relaxed when I am not about. At the last show I stood on the balcony for a while watching from above 

I stay with my cat until I'm kicked out at 10am. I then go back as soon as I can go in. Then check up on him alot for the rest of the show incase he is upset etc...


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## Angeli

Are neuters and entires competing against each other in the same classes then where you show?

If they are judged in the same way why not have them all in one big class together instead of Neuter classes and Entire classes.


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## Biawhiska

i think tica and fife have entires against entires, and neuters against neuters.


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## Selk67U2

*Yea they do*


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## Schimmel

Saikou said:


> Only you have put "mediocre" and your cats in the same sentance not me - but then you should know


Don't you worry your little head Kimmy. I'm very happy with how well my mediocre cats do on the show bench


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## Schimmel

Angeli said:


> No I havent shown at TICA and I wont either as there is not enough reason for me to do so and I dont want to be tied to a cat pen all day either.


Now this, I truly don't get  If given a choice, chances are, our cats would not choose to attend a show and sit in a pen all day. We choose to exhibit them, so surely, the onus is on us, their family, to spend the day with them by sitting in front of the pen, with them on our laps, keeping them happy and being with them? Nothing pisses me off more than seeing a cat stuck in a pen all day and the owner never there  The only time I'm ever away from my cats at a show is when I duck out for a smoke or buy something to eat and even then I bring the food back with me to the pen.


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## Angeli

Oh I dont think I ever said that I leave my cat in her pen all day without ever checking regularly to see that all is still okay .... 

But if I had to sit with her all day calming her down for her to accept being shown then I think the cat would be trying to tell me something ... NO MORE SHOWS PLEASE! 

And that would be the end of that.

I dont care for people that drag their cats around from show to show knowing full well that it causes obvious distress.


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## Schimmel

Noooooooo you misunderstand  Not for a moment did I think you were the sort of person to dump a cat in a pen and leave it all day. What I didn't get was your comment about being "tied to a pen all day". Solely because I don't feel I'm tied to a pen, I sit there because I love to be there with my cats and they love to be with me. (admittedly, TICA provide much wider aisels than GCCF so it's less hassle) 

And I totally agree with you about a cat who isn't enjoying her show experience. We showed a girl recently, her first time out, and while she wasn't agressive or fearful, she was incredibly sad and I felt she was not enjoying it. As such, she will never be shown again, we tried it with her once, she wasn't happy, so she can be a stay at home family member  There's nothing worse than seeing distressed and upset cats at shows


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## Selk67U2

> But if I had to sit with her all day calming her down for her to accept being shown then I think the cat would be trying to tell me something ... NO MORE SHOWS PLEASE!
> 
> And that would be the end of that.


*So are you saying that because we chose to do shows where we can be with our cats that is what we are trying to do ?
I don't for one minute take any cats to a show that hate it. I have 2 that don't go because they got distressed.
The cats we take, enjoy the shows, in fact my 10 yr olds cat purrs all day long.
I don't care for people either who drag their cats around shows just to get titles despite them hating it!*


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## Blue Paw Senior

Well, I much prefer the TICA format, purely for the fact that I can stay with my cat all day. I did show under GCCF and although my baby took a while to do it, she did gain the title of Grand Premier and was on her way to becoming an Imperial. But I had decided to stop showing her altogether anyway, when the furore over the official journal started. My reasons for that was because Kyla was becoming more and more unhappy at shows and kept looking up, all the time. She seemed worried and I can only assume that it was the noise, the lights, or something that was spooking her. I really do not know. Certainly, at the last show we did with GCCF, it was in one of those halls where you could sit and watch what was going on from a distance and I saw nothing in the way she was handled by either judges or stewards that would lead me to believe that she was manhandled and in fact, my husband used to steward for GCCF and although he was never involved in handling her, he had no reason to suspect that she was being manhandled or treated badly, either.

I was persuaded to try TICA shows by a friend and said OK, just the one! Kyla loved it and did dreadfullly!  She didn't final, but she obviously was enjoying herself, as the following pictures will attest. We had bought her a small hooded bed and that seemed to give her some security and comfort, so we decided to continue. She did finally gain her Champion Alter title at her third show, but I can honestly say that she was up against some cats that were much better than her in every way, so I was delighted that she made it  Since then she has been semi retired, not for any other reason but that we got a kitten last year, who has done brilliantly! She was best Oriental Shorthair kitten (of 46) in the NE Europe region and 14th best kitten overall (out of 504!) At her first adult show, she became a Double Grand Champion.  We have now decided to have her spayed next week and she will resume her show career as an Alter in a month's time (if she has recovered from the op sufficiently) As my husband and I are both retired, we cannot afford show fees for both cats now, to be honest.

Anyway, as I say, I much prefer the TICA format, not because it is easier to get titles (it isn't) and not because my cats are mediocre and can't do well under GCCF.

Kyla and a judge at her first show -


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## Angeli

Thats the problem really, the GCCF aisles, not very accomodating for longs stays with a cat. I tried it once with a comfy chair and had my cat on my lap, there were so many people close by and brushing past it was starting to upset her and she wanted to go back to her pen in the end. 

All it takes is one bad experience at a show for a cat and they probably wont want to be shown again.

I had an incident with one of mine last year who had shown well as a kitten, quite an extrovert really and doing very well on the bench. She got her CC at her first adult show but had an incident later on that afternoon while being judged for one of her side classes. As you know that happens when people are allowed back into the hall. She was on the trolley when the exhibitor in the next pen came rushing past and shunted into the trolley with my girl still on it. 
Luckily I was standing close by and heard my girl scream so I was able to get to her quickly to calm her down but was advised by the judge to withdraw her from any remaining classes which I did.

At the following show four weeks later she would not handle, probably still remembered the experience from the previous show so that was the end of her show career.

It was a hard decision to make at the time but the best one


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## Angeli

Selk67U2 said:


> *So are you saying that because we chose to do shows where we can be with our cats that is what we are trying to do ?
> I don't for one minute take any cats to a show that hate it. I have 2 that don't go because they got distressed.
> The cats we take, enjoy the shows, in fact my 10 yr olds cat purrs all day long.
> I don't care for people either who drag their cats around shows just to get titles despite them hating it!*


Oh no no ... that is not what I mean at all. I am only speaking for my cats and myself and how we handle shows. Of course everyone has their own ways of doing things.

My girl that I am showing at the moment is very good at playing to an audience, anybody going up to her pen she will quite happily pose for. When stewards open her pen she is ready and waiting to walk out, not be carried out. I only started showing her in January this year when she was nearly 8 months old so quite late to it all really.She has won all her 6 Open classes with BOB's and became a Champion last month in three shows. Last Saturday at Durham she got her 4th CC, BOB and won all her side classes too, her first Red Card Day and she has only been one place off twice before. I guess the next hurdle is the Grand so Touch wood I hope she continues to enjoy the experience.


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## Saikou

I don't think they apply different standards to neuters as they do to entires. I suppose the reason they are separated is just historic. When shows first started I don't think you could show a neutered cat, but I may be wrong. Some old school breeders do view neuters as second class to entires 

I think the competition in the neuters, especially male neuters, is really strong. Its probably harder to gain a title as a male neuter than it is as an entire. One breeder I know who only showed entires used to complain bitterly that all the BOVs came from the neuters and not the entires as they should be because they are more important


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## Siamese Kelly

Was it Gildingthelily Angeli? Stunning lady and well done to her and you


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## Schimmel

Angeli said:


> Thats the problem really, the GCCF aisles, not very accomodating for longs stays with a cat. I tried it once with a comfy chair and had my cat on my lap, there were so many people close by and brushing past it was starting to upset her and she wanted to go back to her pen in the end.
> 
> All it takes is one bad experience at a show for a cat and they probably wont want to be shown again.
> 
> I had an incident with one of mine last year who had shown well as a kitten, quite an extrovert really and doing very well on the bench. She got her CC at her first adult show but had an incident later on that afternoon while being judged for one of her side classes. As you know that happens when people are allowed back into the hall. She was on the trolley when the exhibitor in the next pen came rushing past and shunted into the trolley with my girl still on it.
> Luckily I was standing close by and heard my girl scream so I was able to get to her quickly to calm her down but was advised by the judge to withdraw her from any remaining classes which I did.
> 
> At the following show four weeks later she would not handle, probably still remembered the experience from the previous show so that was the end of her show career.
> 
> It was a hard decision to make at the time but the best one


And you know what else.................it's so difficult to sit down when you're allowed back in the hall because the minute you put your chair up and sit in it, the judges come along and you have to get up, remove your chair etc. and you end up spending the majority of the day on your feet. 

What an awful experience for your girl, that is terrible. This is the problem with the judging format though because it's not only the other exhibitors who want to get back to their own pens, but also members of the public who are allowed to go up and down the aisles at the same time cats are being judged on the trolleys.


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## Blue Paw Senior

That is a very valid point. I drive a mobility scooter and under TICA, you can request a pen on the end of the row, if you want to. I know that in the past, particularly at GCCF shows, I have really been in the way and it's not a lot of fun knowing that. Despite the fact that it might not appear so, I am very aware of the amount of room that it (and me as well ) take up and used to fell really bad about it. There were times when it really was difficult at some GCCF shows, with the side class judging going on and members of public needing to get around as well.


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## Angeli

Siamese Kelly said:


> Was it Gildingthelily Angeli? Stunning lady and well done to her and you


Yes it was Kelly. Dont know how she managed it really as she was up against some large Persians and Exotics and they were combined male/female classes with nine and eight exhibits in two of them.
My girl is only small and dainty, she might possibly grow just a little more but will never be a big girl. She could do with gaining a little more weight though so any tips on that would be very appreciated.

The entires vs neuters thing, yes I think it probably is an old school saying and I heard it from someone who has shown a lot of neuters themselves. As pointed out they do very well in BOV and Best in Show, nine times out of ten it is a neuter that wins the Overall Exhibit title at the Supreme.

I think its generally accepted though that it is harder to keep an entire in show condition especially females.


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## Schimmel

Angeli said:


> Yes it was Kelly. Dont know how she managed it really as she was up against some large Persians and they were combined male/female classes with nine and eight exhibits in two of them.
> My girl is only small and dainty, she might possibly grow just a little more but will never be a big girl. She could do with gaining a little more weight though so any tips on that would be very appreciated.


Have you tried Hills a/d? And/or minced lamb and rabbit mince? Might help


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## Angeli

She was on Hills a/d for a while as a young kitten at 8 weeks old (a bad time when she developed a mysterious illness and I nearly lost her) which was mixed with warm water and syringed. It worked well at the time so yes I will try her on that again THANKS.

She's not really fussy with her food but raw meat doesn't seem to appeal to her. I give my other cats fatty raw minced beef regularly and they love it, but she will only have a mouthful and leave it. Her favourite at the moment is the Applaws chicken daily, scrambled eggs and she has JW kitten biscuits with a little grated cheese to graze on.


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## Schimmel

Angeli said:


> She was on Hills a/d for a while as a young kitten at 8 weeks old (a bad time when she developed a mysterious illness and I nearly lost her) which was mixed with warm water and syringed. It worked well at the time so yes I will try her on that again THANKS.
> 
> She's not really fussy with her food but raw meat doesn't seem to appeal to her. I give my other cats fatty raw minced beef regularly and they love it, but she will only have a mouthful and leave it. Her favourite at the moment is the Applaws chicken daily, scrambled eggs and she has JW kitten biscuits with a little grated cheese to graze on.


I find that the a/d does wonders when it comes to putting weight on them and we do use it quite a lot on our lactating queens and with any kittens who are struggling. Admittedly it ain't cheap but it's money well spent I think.

It sounds like your girl is a very special fur baby


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## Angeli

I have kittens due in three weeks so I will try some on the queen too. 
Thanks again for the good advice.


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## Schimmel

OOOOHHHHH How exciting  More kittens on the way  What colours are you expecting?


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## Angeli

Ahhh that one's always easy to predict, it will be silvers only 
I only have pure silvers in my lines, no goldens in there as most chinnie breeders tend to have these days.

Hope nobody takes this the wrong way but although the golden persians are beautiful cats in their own right, my opinion is that they should not be bred with each other as this sort of breeding has been known to tarnish a silver's coat.

I suppose it has widened the gene pool for some though.


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## Schimmel

Right, that's it........I'm off to have little nosy on your web site to see your cats    

I know nothing at all about about the Perians or the desired breeding behind them.


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## Schimmel

You have some GORGEOUS cats   I've just been on your web site  I have got to ask this lol......................are they difficult to tell apart when they are born and when they're developing?


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## Selk67U2

> Hope nobody takes this the wrong way but although the golden persians are beautiful cats in their own right, my opinion is that they should not be bred with each other as this sort of breeding has been known to tarnish a silver's coat.


I think you have to do what you think's best for the breed and what you feel is right for you


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## Angeli

Schimmel said:


> You have some GORGEOUS cats   I've just been on your web site  I have got to ask this lol......................are they difficult to tell apart when they are born and when they're developing?


When they are born they are tabby coloured as that is what they are genetically, the silver is masking the tabby (bet that one surprises you all)

Some in the litter are lighter and less striped or very dark and heavy striped, very rarely two being exactly the same so you can easily identify them individually. The average litter size is 3-4 which is good for a queen, although there has been cases of 6 in the litter but its rare.

The tabby colour and markings gradually fade over 5-6 weeks as the coat begins to grow out and should be all silver with just a hint of tipping by the time they are a few months old. The ones that retain a lot of tipping are classed as shaded silver and can only be shown in assessment classes with the GCCF.

I do believe though that the shaded silvers can be shown to championship with FIFE/TICA.


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## Schimmel

Thanks for explaing that so well. I had no idea  And now of course when your expected litter is born, we will want to see LOTS of photos please


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## Angeli

No problem 

You now know what to expect though so you wont be shocked when you see a bundle of short haired tabbies. 

Honestly they do look like moggies for a while


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## Schimmel

Angeli said:


> No problem
> 
> You now know what to expect though so you wont be shocked when you see a bundle of short haired tabbies.
> 
> Honestly they do look like moggies for a while


I truly had no idea and even now I can't imagine what they must be like as newborns and then develop into the stunning felines on your web site.


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## Angeli

You can imagine how difficult it is to assess one of my breed of kittens for pet or show qualty, its not easy I admit and many mistakes were made as a novice 

Schimmel please tell me how you came by that name, its rather intrigueing. It has a Germanic tone to it and I remember my mother who was Viennese who would use that term to describe a white horse.

I have visited your site and seen your beautiful cats (I envy those sleek and glossy coats many times) however my attention was also drawn to the text, very to the point - I like that - well done for being so forthright,


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## Schimmel

Angeli said:


> You can imagine how difficult it is to assess one of my breed of kittens for pet or show qualty, its not easy I admit and many mistakes were made as a novice


I don't know how you do it actually. I imagine if you're keeping one back that you wait till the very last moment just to make sure?



Angeli said:


> Schimmel please tell me how you came by that name, its rather intrigueing. It has a Germanic tone to it and I remember my mother who was Viennese who would use that term to describe a white horse.


Ahhhhh it was our 2nd choice of prefix, we didn't get our first. I love doing jigsaw puzzles, it's a hobby of mine, doing them and framing them. There is an artist called Schimmel who does the most amazing images of wildlife and they are on jigsaw puzzles. I've done loads of the Schimmel puzzles  



Angeli said:


> I have visited your site and seen your beautiful cats (I envy those sleek and glossy coats many times) however my attention was also drawn to the text, very to the point - I like that - well done for being so forthright,


Yep, my biggest problem is my great big mouth and I don't see the point in ever beating around the bush


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## Angeli

Schimmel I'll bet you have made some enemies along the line 

Personally I prefer people like that as I am the same. There are just too many people of the other sort in the cat world that are not worth bothering about


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## Schimmel

Angeli said:


> Schimmel I'll bet you have made some enemies along the line


My reputation obviously precedes me ROFL 



Angeli said:


> Personally I prefer people like that as I am the same. There are just too many people of the other sort in the cat world that are not worth bothering about


Totally agree 200%. If you've got something to say, then say it and if people don't like it, they don't have to associate with ya'   (You can tell that I never did read "How To Win Friends and Influence People" can't ya lol)


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## Selk67U2

> Totally agree 200%. If you've got something to say, then say it and if people don't like it, they don't have to associate with ya'


__________________

*Haha, you got that right girl*


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