# Show German Shepherds... disgusted!



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

As many of you know, I love German Shepherds, and hope to own one some day (a good few years yet!).

I've been looking around on the net about GSD health and a few breeders websites since I saw Poisongirls ancient thread about breeders.

I've just been on youtube, and watched a video from a show... I'm absolutely horrified at the weakness in their hocks - they invert on themselves!... GSDs at Manchester Show 2008 - YouTube

Is this just a bad example of GSD showing or is this the norm?


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

dandogman said:


> As many of you know, I love German Shepherds, and hope to own one some day (a good few years yet!).
> 
> I've been looking around on the net about GSD health and a few breeders websites since I saw Poisongirls ancient thread about breeders.
> 
> ...


I feel very sorry for that dog, apart from not looking right, walking seems to look difficult for him/her. The back legs look way too short.. very sad in my opinion.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

That's painful to watch, I'm grimacing. Poor, poor dog. I hope you're going to opt for a straight back type when the time comes?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Grotesque. 
That said, I doubt it'll take long for the apologists to come out of the woodwork.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Disgusting 

I have never really seen many GSD's in the show ring, next time i'm at a show on the same day as them i'm going to wander over and see if they really are as bad as these videos always make out or if they're just picking on the very worst. Even if it's not the norm, those dogs on that video and others still exist and it's sad.

It's things like that which give the show world such a bad name  and the sooner these kind of dogs disappear the better... I think there are few dogs more beautiful than a straight backed GSD


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

sharloid said:


> That's painful to watch, I'm grimacing. Poor, poor dog. I hope you're going to *opt for a straight back type* when the time comes?


After seeing this video, yes, more than likely.



Tigerneko said:


> Disgusting
> 
> I have never really seen many GSD's in the show ring, next time i'm at a show on the same day as them i'm going to wander over and see if they really are as bad as these videos always make out or if they're just picking on the very worst. Even if it's not the norm, those dogs on that video and others still exist and it's sad.
> 
> It's things like that which give the show world such a bad name  and the sooner these kind of dogs disappear the better... I think there are few dogs more beautiful than a straight backed GSD


Yes, I did wonder if it was just the worst, but then, none of the dogs in the vid looked particularly healthy although some were worse than others.


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

I believe this is why the GSD community has many breakaway organisations looking to increase the health of these dogs e.g. https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/The-National-GSD-Club-Information-Page/136271509875825


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

They look awful 

I really wanted a GSD when I was younger - Watching these kind of clips totally put me off them. 

Three show line GSD's (with sloped backs) I have known have all been put down due to the back legs "going". The oldest being 8 years old.

So sad


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Absolutely awful! Poor dog 

It's this sort of thing that makes me wonder what is happening in the dog show world

If this dog adheres to the breed standard for GSD (I have no clue on this breed) then something is clearly very wrong!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

SammyJo said:


> They look awful
> 
> I really wanted a GSD when I was younger - Watching these kind of clips totally put me off them.
> 
> ...


That's horrific.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Sadly, yes the slanted back is bred for as it 'enhances' that notable GSD stance. Slanted back sacrifices the back legs, I believe the one in the clip is an extreme example but I doubt it's 'abnormal' in the show world. I do believe this clip was used in pedigree dogs exposed?

Honestly avoid the slanted backed lines. There is a reason the GSD's used in sports or worked with the police or search & rescue etc. have straight backs!
As with a lot of breeds, the extreme breeding is putting their health at risk.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

They look wrong why people would breed weak sickly dogs is beyond me just plain cruel IMO.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

That clip was shown on Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

It's disgusting and one of the reasons I stay away from the breed. Even though I adore them. I grew up with GSDs and Rotties and they will always have a special place in my heart... These videos break it.

Some older breeders believe that this is the way these dogs should look. They are backward breeders, not willing to look forward. They breed purely for conformation and 'looks', no second thought is given to health.

The same as older Ridgeback breeders who cull puppies born without a 'ridge'...

It gives pedigree dogs a bad name and that annoys me no end. What also annoys me is people breeding non-KC, non health tested GSDs... I emailed a breeder of a litter of GSDs not long ago. I wasn't interested in a pup but just wanted to know if she was a good breeder or not. When I asked about health testing, her reply? "This is my dogs second litter and I have had no complaints about any puppies and their health, that is why I do not health test. It isn't needed all the time"... I didn't reply. I was too angry.

Working lines, non-sloped GSDs are the way to go IMO... Start there and then find a very good breeder. These poor 'mutant' dogs shouldn't be put through this and if people stopped buying them and the want of them decreased. That is when we will start to see changes. Unfortunately, people who don't know otherwise, still think sloped backs are the norm and how the dogs should look.

Very, very sad.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

dandogman said:


> As many of you know, I love German Shepherds, and hope to own one some day (a good few years yet!).
> 
> I've been looking around on the net about GSD health and a few breeders websites since I saw Poisongirls ancient thread about breeders.
> 
> ...


No it isnt the norm it took her 2 years of attending shows to get the cleverly edited footage she did


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

CheddarS said:


> I believe this is why the GSD community has many breakaway organisations looking to increase the health of these dogs e.g. https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/The-National-GSD-Club-Information-Page/136271509875825


these are supporters of English Show line - they arent interested in health otherwise why did it take them several years to disclose the epilepsy in their lines they were breeding from, very few of this type hip or elbow score, there is problems with the shoulders being incorrectly placed and developing OCD


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Disgusting


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> Working lines, non-sloped GSDs are the way to go IMO... Start there and then find a very good breeder. These poor 'mutant' dogs shouldn't be put through this and *if people stopped buying them and the want of them decreased.* That is when we will start to see changes. Unfortunately, people who don't know otherwise, still think sloped backs are the norm and how the dogs should look.
> 
> Very, very sad.


Sadly it's not that simple - the slope backed dogs are still in demand and are still winning the shows, this is the current top GSD in the UK at the moment:










He's won at least 5 Best In Shows at champ show level, 8 Pastoral Group 1's including Pastoral Group 1 at Crufts in 2011 which meant he was in the lineup for Best in Show, he was also Pastoral Group 3 this year.

Demand for puppies from him and dogs like him will be MASSIVE within the show world, many of these litters do not make it to the pet market, they are snapped up within the show scene across the world. So it's gonna take the whole GSD world to change before things start to change on a wider scale and I think that will be many many years off yet, if ever. Now, I know looking at him he's certainly not the worst backed dog in the world, there are many worse but he is still of that type, and I worry how they are going to 'better' him in the future.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> That clip was shown on Pedigree Dogs Exposed.
> 
> It's disgusting and one of the reasons I stay away from the breed. Even though I adore them. I grew up with GSDs and Rotties and they will always have a special place in my heart... These videos break it.
> 
> ...


The above breeder you contacted would not have been a West German line breeder, the dogs have correct backs when not in stance - I suggest you look at some real breeders of this type.
The pet lines are inbred on epileptics to get colour/coat, their temps are not correct for a GSD. The 'back' is measured between the high withers to the slightly sloping croup.
If a dogs back legs end up giving way this is a condition called DM, which can be genetic but also trauma related nothing to do with the conformation of a dog and ALL lines have dogs with DM.
Getting working lines you need to be careful there are some breeders who dont health test and some that do but ignore the results anyway and breed of dogs/bitches with elbow grades.
These so called 'straight backs as most pet people term them have various problems that are genetic; epilepsy, cryptoidism, missing teeth, ed, hd, pd, poor temps either too soft or windy and you will not get a full 5 generations of health testing behind them.
If people want to see the WG showlines then go to one of the Sieger shows either the British one or the various European ones.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Wildmoor said:


> The above breeder you contacted would not have been a West German line breeder, the dogs have correct backs when not in stance - I suggest you look at some real breeders of this type.
> The pet lines are inbred on epileptics to get colour/coat, their temps are not correct for a GSD. The 'back' is measured between the high withers to the slightly sloping croup.
> If a dogs back legs end up giving way this is a condition called DM, which can be genetic but also trauma related nothing to do with the conformation of a dog and ALL lines have dogs with DM.
> Getting working lines you need to be careful there are some breeders who dont health test and some that do but ignore the results anyway and breed of dogs/bitches with elbow grades.
> ...


I didn't say I was looking for breeders... I was looking at bog standard breeders on a bog standard website and enquiring... 'Just to see'. More to kill my curiosity and just to be nosey... I know how to find a good breeder but most people don't and those are the kind of dogs they will buy.

Again, I didn't say 'just go for working lines'. I said start there and find a good breeder... Meaning, don't just find working lines and get one... Working lines, to me, is the best place to start... Obviously you would also look at health testing and titles.

Again, I know what is involved in finding a good breeder.


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## HandsomeHound (Sep 1, 2012)

We went to 2 really big dog shows last year, and unfortunately the very sloped backed GSD's were the norm. It looks awful, almost like they're walking on their knees.

We've seen 2 this last week whilst out walking, both with incredibly sloped backs. Apart from looking terrible, surely this can't be good for them?


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Tigerneko said:


> Sadly it's not that simple - the slope backed dogs are still in demand and are still winning the shows, this is the current top GSD in the UK at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, but being in demand is part of the problem. If they weren't so 'in demand' there wouldn't be as big a problem... If people cared more about the health of their dogs, rather than 'the look'... These kind of problems, one would think, would be looked at.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Tigerneko said:


> Sadly it's not that simple - the slope backed dogs are still in demand and are still winning the shows, this is the current top GSD in the UK at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This dog which you obviously dislike has his SCH3, clear elbows, clear hips, he is a low hip & elbow producer and no his pups arent in excessive demand he has produced 159 pups out of 29 litters - now if you compare this to a certain Manchester stud dog owners whos dogs have no qualifications and are bred to be oversize longcoats and on average produce 500-600 pups in their stud life


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Tigerneko said:


> Sadly it's not that simple - the slope backed dogs are still in demand and are still winning the shows, this is the current top GSD in the UK at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are aware this dog has many working titles, he also has I believe clear hips, elbows etc? He is also nothing like the dogs you have seen in the other clips?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> They look awful
> 
> I really wanted a GSD when I was younger - Watching these kind of clips totally put me off them.
> 
> ...


My old GSD went because of his back legs going. But then Ti never even had a very sloped back, suppose it was bad genetics.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

CheddarS said:


> I believe this is why the GSD community has many breakaway organisations looking to increase the health of these dogs e.g. https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/The-National-GSD-Club-Information-Page/136271509875825


It may well be, BUT after looking to the main people from this group when looking for a GSD, they don't hips score, in fact have a litter out there right now where the dam has not been hip scored, one of the main people is producing dogs with hip scores as high as 80. All that glitters is not gold.............. :nono:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> My old GSD went because of his back legs going. But then Ti never even had a very sloped back, suppose it was bad genetics.


Lost my GSD to CDRM, and he has a straight back


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Meezey said:


> It may well be, BUT after looking to the main people from this group when looking for a GSD, they don't hips score, in fact have a litter out there right now where the dam has not been hip scored, one of the main people is producing dogs with hip scores as high as 80. All that glitters is not gold.............. :nono:


You can always find the bad...and the good. Think you need to make that decision when buying your pup.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Is this just a bad example of GSD showing or is this the norm?


You need to take the main factor into account which is, the UK breed registration club for all breeds is KC.

KC is the only breeds registration club in Europe which has no mandatory fit for purpose tests for all working breeds, the European breed registration clubs for all working breeds make it mandatory, my breed is Dobermanns, they are only allowed to be 2cm out what are accepted as the conformations which cause no adverse problems for the dogs carrying out their normal working role.

The video link below was shot in Jan 2012, she is 9 year & about 7 weeks old with an average breed life expectancy 10-11 years, she is living her life in optimum health & in human terms 'enjoying' every minuet of it right through into old age, she has only European ancestors.

Here its all down to if KC can get away with making profits on litters or not, thats the sole UK criterea.

B F Skinners -Co-Active Positive & Negative Reinforced Behaviours - YouTube

.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Logically if a roached topline was detrimental to health then surely this would also apply to loads of Sighthound breeds too  after all .the Borzoi is way more 'banana back' than any GSD - as is the Whippet, the Greyhound, The Bedlington and the Deerhound, personally I prefer a more moderate look in the GSD but I certainly think that breeders of the Germanic type are more focused on health than most other GSD breeders .....of course if you REALLY. Want a well constructed shepherd then get a BELGIAN Shepherd Dog instead


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Wildmoor said:


> No it isnt the norm it took her 2 years of attending shows to get the cleverly edited footage she did


I'm glad you've replied. That's a good thing then. Although, the I would question why a dog of this conformation is at a show in the first place.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

As far as I can understand it the GSD breed clubs were the ones who pioneered Hip Displasia (HD) testing which they should be congratulated for. It hasn't just benefited the GSD as a useful health tool.

Isn't HD testing though a red herring when it comes specifically to this. Doesn't the slope angulation involve the back legs, not the hips. You can build a plane with wings perfectly positioned, doesn't mean the plane will fly well.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Sleepy bones your post is not logical given that the type being criticised here is the Germanic type who are overwhelmingly bred from European imports who have to pass fit for function working tests before being passed as of sufficient quality to breed from


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I've just found this video - Elmo, the Crufts winner...

Crufts 2013 German Shepherd Dog Best of Breed - Ch Elmo Vom Huhnegrab - YouTube

See, he doesn't look exaggerated to me.

He has a litter due soon, it says enquirers welcome, so I assume they're not in that high demand... Crufts German Shepherd Best of Breed 2012 - Ch Elmo vom Hühnegrab - YouTube


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lauren5159 said:


> That clip was shown on Pedigree Dogs Exposed.
> 
> It's disgusting and one of the reasons I stay away from the breed. Even though I adore them. I grew up with GSDs and Rotties and they will always have a special place in my heart... These videos break it.
> 
> ...


The RR Club of Great Britain states in it's Code of Ethics that no healthy puppy should be culled Code of Ethics Page . Perhaps some breeders still do (none that I am aware of) but I have known a fair few ridgeless pups or ones with a "faulty" ridge find happy homes. If you personally know of breeders who cull then I am sure the Club would appreciate you reporting them.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I 've seen both Elmo and the Kintaro bitch who took the bitch Cc at Crufts 'in the flesh ' - both completely stunning examples of the breed :001_smile:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

If you look at the dog and bitch at Crufts you will see that they are not deformed slopey backed dogs  The bitch owner, has some cracking dogs ( I was hoping to have a pup from her then Cian turned up , she has a litter now ) not a deformed back among them:

Crufts 2013 German Shepherd Dog Best of Breed - Ch Elmo Vom Huhnegrab - YouTube


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Here we go again (sigh)

Let's show old footage that it took JH over two years of going to shows until she could find something bad to produce and use it as an excuse to lay into the KC and show lines.



sezeelson said:


> I believe the one in the clip is an extreme example


Yes it is



sezeelson said:


> but I doubt it's 'abnormal' in the show world.


Well you doubt wrong then. This is normal in the show world:

Crufts 2013 German Shepherd Dog Best of Breed - Ch Elmo Vom Huhnegrab - YouTube



Tigerneko said:


> Sadly it's not that simple - the slope backed dogs are still in demand and are still winning the shows, this is the current top GSD in the UK at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See the video of him above - looks pretty healthy and moves very well.

ETA sorry Dandogman and Meezey - posted this before I saw you had both already posted it.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Bijou said:


> I 've seen both Elmo and the Kintaro bitch who took the bitch Cc at Crufts 'in the flesh ' - both completely stunning examples of the breed :001_smile:


Hopefully Xoe will get BOB this year with Elmo retiring


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bijou said:


> I 've seen both Elmo and the Kintaro bitch who took the bitch Cc at Crufts 'in the flesh ' - both completely stunning examples of the breed :001_smile:


They certainly are - Elmo's movement around the ring takes your breath away.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Dogless said:


> The RR Club of Great Britain states in it's Code of Ethics that no healthy puppy should be culled Code of Ethics Page . Perhaps some breeders still do (none that I am aware of) but I have known a fair few ridgeless pups or ones with a "faulty" ridge find happy homes. If you personally know of breeders who cull then I am sure the Club would appreciate you reporting them.


My aunt researched Ridgeback breeders. She got in touch with a lot. These breeders, when asked about dogs bred without Ridges (my aunt wasn't fussed as she had read that a lot of puppies are born without them), all but one of the breeders stated, "we will not sell puppies without a ridge"... What does that mean? The same as when I researched Dalmatians. A top breeder told me that she will not sell deaf puppies... I'm a firm believer that it still goes on. Yes there are Codes of Conduct, but how many breeders actually adhere to these 'codes'.

We have all heard horror stories of the show world. To believe that these things do not go on behind closed doors, is crazy... Vets have stood up and said they will not cull perfectly healthy puppies, but the breeders still won't sell them... I for one do not believe that the breeders themselves keep them.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> *Here we go again* (sigh)
> 
> Let's show old footage that it took JH over two years of going to shows until she could find something bad to produce and use it as an excuse to lay into the KC and show lines.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I found the footage on youtube - there are hardly any vids of GSD showing on there... I had no idea that it took them two years to film it... I'm so glad that most show GSD's aren't like that.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> My aunt researched Ridgeback breeders. She got in touch with a lot. These breeders, when asked about dogs bred without Ridges (my aunt wasn't fussed as she had read that a lot of puppies are born without them), all but one of the breeders stated, "we will not sell puppies without a ridge"... What does that mean? The same as when I researched Dalmatians. A top breeder told me that she will not sell deaf puppies... I'm a firm believer that it still goes on. Yes there are Codes of Conduct, but how many breeders actually adhere to these 'codes'.
> 
> We have all heard horror stories of the show world. To believe that these things do not go on behind closed doors, is crazy... Vets have stood up and said they will not cull perfectly healthy puppies, but the breeders still won't sell them... I for one do not believe that the breeders themselves keep them.


So are you saying breeders are culling their own puppies? Lets not beat about the bush your saying that breeders are inhumanly killing puppies?

Maybe they GIVE the puppies away? FOC?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lauren5159 said:


> My aunt researched Ridgeback breeders. She got in touch with a lot. These breeders, when asked about dogs bred without Ridges (my aunt wasn't fussed as she had read that a lot of puppies are born without them), all but one of the breeders stated, "we will not sell puppies without a ridge"... What does that mean? The same as when I researched Dalmatians. A top breeder told me that she will not sell deaf puppies... I'm a firm believer that it still goes on. Yes there are Codes of Conduct, but how many breeders actually adhere to these 'codes'.
> 
> We have all heard horror stories of the show world. To believe that these things do not go on behind closed doors, is crazy... Vets have stood up and said they will not cull perfectly healthy puppies, but the breeders still won't sell them... I for one do not believe that the breeders themselves keep them.


Did your Aunt ask then what did happen? I have known some sold, some kept by the breeder, some "gifted" to relatives or friends. I have been offered a "gifted" dog for another reason. I am not saying that it definitely doesn't happen - how can I? - but without any proof how can you say that it does? I assume your Aunt made her concerns known to the breed club as you seem to be suggesting that the breeders cull their own puppies. Which is a pretty hefty accusation.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> Sorry, I found the footage on youtube - there are hardly any vids of GSD showing on there... I had no idea that it took them two years to film it... I'm so glad that most show GSD's aren't like that.


If you put GSD showing 2013 it comes up with at LEAST 7 pages of clips


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Meezey said:


> So are you saying breeders are culling their own puppies? Lets not beat about the bush your saying that breeders are inhumanly killing puppies?
> 
> Maybe they GIVE the puppies away? FOC?


Maybe they do... In an ideal world, they would.

Have you seen the show Pedigree Dogs Exposed? In that, the presented asked the Chief of The KC about the culling of puppies and his answer is pathetic. I know that show is five years old now but would those head-strong 'old time' breeders change? I don't think so.

How many top lines Dalmatian puppies who are deaf, have you seen? Or heard of being rehomed FOC? How many KC registered Ridgeback puppies have you seen without ridges...I am human, I could be wrong. But I've never seen one.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Here we go again (sigh)
> 
> Let's show old footage that it took JH over two years of going to shows until she could find something bad to produce and use it as an excuse to lay into the KC and show lines.
> 
> ...


I'd say the dogs in thay clip are still pretty bad.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Sleepy bones your post is not logical given that the type being criticised here is the Germanic type who are overwhelmingly bred from European imports who have to pass fit for function working tests before being passed as of sufficient quality to breed from


My post was not directly on topic but was indirectly related to the GSD breed. You are wrong to say that _"overwhelmingly bred from European imports who have to pass fit for function working tests"_ I for one am not expert on GSDs but they have always been a popular breed here in UK for as long as I can remember.

The drop on quarantine laws is VERY recent. I think around 2000, even then pet with the new pet passport it took 6 months to bring a dog into UK, before that it was mandatory quarantine for any dog entering UK, GSDs were a very popular dog here long, long before that.

You are right to say the breed has problems in Europe, Herr Manfred Lerner is a highly respected German dogman, although he breeds Dobermanns he has made his own observations on the poor health of the GSD breed in Europe but Herr Helmut Raiser was much closer to the breed in Europe, heres some comments of his on the state of the breed in Europe.

What the main problem seems to be is money, they were a very, very popular dog in sixties & seventies (here in UK) but in Europe, including Germany you are right, there are problems,

Herr Helmut Raiser articles on GSD
Herr of the dog has cure for German shepherd - World - www.smh.com.au

Manfred Lerner, GSD health observation (Euro Dobe Site)
Untitled Document
.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lauren5159 said:


> Maybe they do... In an ideal world, they would.
> 
> Have you seen the show Pedigree Dogs Exposed? In that, the presented asked the Chief of The KC about the culling of puppies and his answer is pathetic.
> 
> How many top lines Dalmatian puppies who are deaf, have you seen? Or heard of being rehomed FOC? How many KC registered Ridgeback puppies have you seen without ridges...I am human, I could be wrong. But I've never seen one.


But the producers of PDE later had to issue an apology. I have seen ridgeless pups from reputable breeders, but I never asked whether or not they were KC registered. Seeing as RRs are not a very common breed the fact that you have never seen a KC registered ridgeless one isn't unusual I wouldn't have thought. I am not saying that all is perfect, but throwing accusations around without any evidence doesn't seem fair.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

These pictures were taken at 7yrs old 100% West German Show Line 
Idol Wolfgang 







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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

sharloid said:


> I'd say the dogs in thay clip are still pretty bad.


Really? And just what, in your opinion, is bad about them? In my opinion they exude health (and I've seen the male dog in the flesh many times at shows) They are not cow hocked. They move well and soundly. Their backs slope, but so do the backs of many other breeds, such as some of the sight hounds. (you may not like the look of sloping backs or the idea that sloping backs have been bred into these dogs, but don't forget sloping backs occur naturally in some animals - eg hyenas). Oh, and before you answer, perhaps you had better read Wildmoor's post below about the health status of the male dog in the clip:



Wildmoor said:


> This dog which you obviously dislike has his SCH3, clear elbows, clear hips, he is a low hip & elbow producer and no his pups arent in excessive demand he has produced 159 pups out of 29 litters - now if you compare this to a certain Manchester stud dog owners whos dogs have no qualifications and are bred to be oversize longcoats and on average produce 500-600 pups in their stud life


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

As far as show GSD's go, Elmo is a great example with health test and working trial results to prove it. He is a million miles from the dog/s in the Manchester video, yet he is as extreme as I would ever like to see any GSD in terms of topline and hind leg angulation.

No other breed is shaped like or moves like the GSD. No other pastoral breed has the same sloped back and angulation in their legs, so why the GSD? How would these traits benefit the dog when working?
Moreover, can anyone shed any light on why GSDs are not stacked square? 

Have asked these questions on related threads in the past and never received an answer, anyone know?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> Maybe they do... In an ideal world, they would.
> 
> Have you seen the show Pedigree Dogs Exposed? In that, the presented asked the Chief of The KC about the culling of puppies and his answer is pathetic. I know that show is five years old now but would those head-strong 'old time' breeders change? I don't think so.
> 
> How many top lines Dalmatian puppies who are deaf, have you seen? Or heard of being rehomed FOC? How many KC registered Ridgeback puppies have you seen without ridges...I am human, I could be wrong. But I've never seen one.


Well to be honest RR are not the most popular of breeds so up until last week I hadn't see one out walking in Northern Ireland... and those I see in shows are breed standard so of course I wouldn't see one without a ridge.

I struggle that you have no fact to base this on, it's just hearsay, bit like Chinese whispers.

The Rottweiler breed is losing 2 CC's as there has been a HUGE drop in numbers of registered dogs, why because the "head -strong 'old-time' breeder" didn't like the fact their breed would now have a tail, and that they wouldn't be judge fairly in the ring as there was no breed standard for a Rottweiler tail, so they left the breed....... So yes they can change or leave the breed..........


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Dogless said:


> But the producers of PDE later had to issue an apology. I have seen ridgeless pups from reputable breeders, but I never asked whether or not they were KC registered. Seeing as RRs are not a very common breed the fact that you have never seen a KC registered ridgeless one isn't unusual I wouldn't have thought. I am not saying that all is perfect, but throwing accusations around without any evidence doesn't seem fair.


I didn't accuse. I questioned.

I believe that it still goes on. I didn't ACCUSE all top breeders of doing it.

But some, like I said, 'old time' breeders are set in their ways. A ridgeless puppy does not carry the ridge gene, therefore cannot produce puppies with a ridge, apparently. Breeding a ridgeless dog to a dog with a ridge, may only produce a few with a ridge, therefore creating more ridgeless puppies. Now, if every single ridgeless puppy was sold on a spay/neuter contract, there would be a few more than there actually are. I only know of ONE breeder who solely breeds ridgeless dogs... And that's in America.

Now, when my aunt asked certain breeders what they do if a ridgeless puppy is born, in regards to not selling it, she got shoddy answers.

Same with Dalmatians.

I didn't mean to start an argument, only stated that _I_ believe it still goes on. I have met a fair few Ridgebacks in my time so to imply that because they're rare, I can't possibly know, isn't too nice.

As I said, I didn't mean to start an argument and this post is about GSDs so that is the last you will here from me on the subject.

Debating is good, putting words in to people's mouths, isn't.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> My post was not directly on topic but was indirectly related to the GSD breed. You are wrong to say that _"overwhelmingly bred from European imports who have to pass fit for function working tests"_ I for one am not expert on GSDs but they have always been a popular breed here in UK for as long as I can remember.
> 
> The drop on quarantine laws is VERY recent. I think around 2000, even then pet with the new pet passport it took 6 months to bring a dog into UK, before that it was mandatory quarantine for any dog entering UK, GSDs were a very popular dog here long, long before that.
> 
> ...


He is the one that wanted to crossbreed with the Malinois - when there is no need if you want to outcross mix WL with SL they are genetically different


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lauren5159 said:


> I didn't accuse. I questioned.
> 
> I believe that it still goes on. I didn't ACCUSE all top breeders of doing it.
> 
> ...


I neither put words into your mouth or suggested that you couldn't possibly know. Throwing about fairly weighty suggestions or even stating it as fact in your first post is also not too nice. To say that "old time" breeders are set in their ways without evidence, to say that older breeders cull puppies but without being able to back it up is unfair.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2013)

Jesus no one can prove whether breeders do or do not cull pups, I for one would like to hope they would not, but stop throwing your opinion around as facts. It can be very damaging to the good breeders out there.

On topic, I don't like the sloped GSD's at all.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Goblin said:


> As far as I can understand it the GSD breed clubs were the ones who pioneered Hip Displasia (HD) testing which they should be congratulated for. It hasn't just benefited the GSD as a useful health tool.
> 
> Isn't HD testing though a red herring when it comes specifically to this. Doesn't the slope angulation involve the back legs, not the hips. You can build a plane with wings perfectly positioned, doesn't mean the plane will fly well.


I thought it was the Red Setter people who pioneered HD testing 

Maybe it was them that used it properly to try and improve their breed



Spellweaver said:


> Here we go again (sigh)
> 
> Well you doubt wrong then. This is normal in the show world:
> 
> ...


I'm not actually very impressed with him either though a vast improvement on what was being shown only a few years ago.
I found this footage and was quite impressed with the strides forward





Wasn't quite as impressed with the dogs......but still a lot better than a while ago


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Thank you all for your replies, I've found this very interesting and encouraging. My heart sank when I saw the video the first time.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

Lauren5159 said:


> Yes, but being in demand is part of the problem. If they weren't so 'in demand' there wouldn't be as big a problem... If people cared more about the health of their dogs, rather than 'the look'... These kind of problems, one would think, would be looked at.


Why would any owner of any breed want a dog looking like it is deformed and sickly, I would be so ashamed to walk down out street with a dog looking like that for a few neighbours to see than to parade around a show ring for thousands of people to observe its deformities. What in heavens name, can "that look" do for anyone? Is all that in the name of showing Dogs, what is wrong with these people, do they have brain deformities to even think that this cruel barbaric practise is in any way but detremental to the health of the Dog.

Poor things to have to suffer in this way, and the ironic thing is the people doing it, are breeders who proclaim they want to preserve the original lines and temperament of the GSD I don't think so from seeing those sad pictures.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Thorne said:


> As far as show GSD's go, Elmo is a great example with health test and working trial results to prove it. He is a million miles from the dog/s in the Manchester video, yet he is as extreme as I would ever like to see any GSD in terms of topline and hind leg angulation.
> 
> No other breed is shaped like or moves like the GSD. No other pastoral breed has the same sloped back and angulation in their legs, so why the GSD? How would these traits benefit the dog when working?
> *Moreover, can anyone shed any light on why GSDs are not stacked square?
> ...


For one this is a natural stance in the GSD whilst stopping alert at something, problem is too many people rather than walking their dog into stance they will physically stack them often over stretching them
For another whilst in stance you can visibly see Height to length ratio, turn of stifle, other structure as definition between high withers, back and croup, steepness or shortness of croup etc

I have another herding breed that at times will stand themselves this way, when shown in Europe they are shown 4 square but not sideways (ie they face the judge) a lot of it with GSDs is historical whereas my other breed as only been shown for the last 22+ years


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Poor things to have to suffer in this way, and the ironic thing is the people doing it, are breeders who proclaim they want to preserve the original lines and temperament of the GSD I don't think so from seeing those sad pictures.


In what way are they suffering? I'm am so interested in knowing this suffering that these two dog in the last video clips are going through?

Both have good hip score, elbow are good, they move well, Elmo does working trials, please explain what suffering?

As a few people have pointed out they have had "straight" back GSD who have suffered from CDRM, and trust me that is something awful to have to watch your dog suffer from.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Why would any owner of any breed want a dog looking like it is deformed and sickly, I would be so ashamed to walk down out street with a dog looking like that for a few neighbours to see than to parade around a show ring for thousands of people to observe its deformities. What in heavens name, can "that look" do for anyone? Is all that in the name of showing Dogs, what is wrong with these people, do they have brain deformities to even think that this cruel barbaric practise is in any way but detremental to the health of the Dog.
> 
> Poor things to have to suffer in this way, and the ironic thing is the people doing it, are breeders who proclaim they want to preserve the original lines and temperament of the GSD I don't think so from seeing those sad pictures.


Unfortunately, I don't know the psychology behind why people would want them... But if these dogs are being shown on TV, some people are going to think it's normal... There are however, some really nice dogs you will also see in the show ring. Let's just hope most people become aware of the issues some dogs have and go fot health tested dogs... That would be an ideal world.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know the psychology behind why people would want them... But if these dogs are being shown on TV, some people are going to think it's normal... There are however, some really nice dogs you will also see in the show ring. Let's just hope most people become aware of the issues some dogs have and go fot health tested dogs... That would be an ideal world.


These dogs ARE health tested?

I'm sure there are people on the forum how do own show line GSD ask them about they psychology for owning them...

How incredibly rude......


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> For one this is a natural stance in the GSD whilst stopping alert at something, problem is too many people rather than walking their dog into stance they will physically stack them often over stretching them
> For another whilst in stance you can visibly see Height to length ratio, turn of stifle, other structure as definition between high withers, back and croup, steepness or shortness of croup etc
> 
> I have another herding breed that at times will stand themselves this way, when shown in Europe they are shown 4 square but not sideways (ie they face the judge) a lot of it with GSDs is historical whereas my other breed as only been shown for the last 22+ years


Thanks for the reply, makes sense. 
My Labs always halt square when they're alerted to something but out of interest I've just looked back at some photos of a GSD I used to walk; more often than not she seems to have stood herself in that stance (she was never shown). How intriguing.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Meezey said:


> These dogs ARE health tested?
> 
> I'm sure there are people on the forum how do own show line GSD ask them about they psychology for owning them...
> 
> How incredibly rude......


Oh for the love of God! I was referring to the dog in the first video!

And I DID say there are some really nice dogs you will see in the show ring!

I wasn't referring to EVERY dog you will see, like I said above... The psychology of the breeders and owners of the FIRST dog baffles me...


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

rona said:


> I thought it was the Red Setter people who pioneered HD testing
> 
> Maybe it was them that used it properly to try and improve their breed


No it was the GSD League the scheme as been around in one form or another for over 60 years in GSDs


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> Oh for the love of God! I was referring to the dog in the first video!
> 
> And I DID say there are some really nice dogs you will see in the show ring!
> 
> I wasn't referring to EVERY dog you will see, like I said above... The psychology of the breeders and owners of the FIRST dog baffles me...


The dogs shown on TV are at Crufts so Elmo and Xoe, the first dog was at a dog show and videoed by a member of the public so not on TV, So you can see why I would think you were referring to them.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Meezey said:


> The dogs shown on TV are at Crufts so Elmo and Xoe, the first dog was at a dog show and videoed by a member of the public so not on TV, So you can see why I would think you were referring to them.


Those were the dogs I was referring to when I said 'nice' examples.

I didn't realise the first one was filmed by a member of the public. I've just watched it back and that's pretty obvious now. Apologies.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lauren, you do realise that the PDE programme by JH wasn't particularly factually correct? Although there are a lot of people who believe it did good to highlight some of the less scrupulous breeders within the show world, it did actually use clips of dogs that weren't shown at all, or show bred even. 

Although some people (as mentioned) believe it did a lot of good, it also did a lot of harm. Show people who have been involved with health testing from the very start, had people walk away from their litters because all pedigree breeds were deemed unhealthy following the airing of this programme, and instead of buying from breeders who health tested and knew their lines inside and out, people bought non-KC registered dogs because they *thought* it MUST mean they were healthier than those dogs shown on the television. 

The PDE programme is really hard viewing, but it is also incredibly skewed, and highlighted the worst, of the worst of people involved in showing. 

As for culling, this is something that was historically done, thankfully not these days, but it was common practice to cull numbers within a litter to allow the remaining pups to thrive. There were/are a lot of old fashioned beliefs out there to do with dogs, not just related to showing/breeding, but down to diet, care, training etc. Thankfully the vast majority of these outdated beliefs are becoming less and less practised, unfortunately, some people would like to tar everyone with a great big brush, just to sell *their* story.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Meezey said:


> These dogs ARE health tested?
> 
> I'm sure there are people on the forum how do own show line GSD ask them about they psychology for owning them...
> 
> How incredibly rude......


I own a WG SL, before retiring he was a Therapy dog, a Blood Donor, Stooge dog for dogs with problems
Even now he has retired I regular go on group walks with on average 15 other GSDs - he is the calming influence and keeps the bad behaved pet line ones in check


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> No other breed is shaped like or moves like the GSD. No other pastoral breed has the same sloped back and angulation in their legs, so why the GSD? How would these traits benefit the dog when working?
> *Moreover, can anyone shed any light on why GSDs are not stacked square?*


From the bits & pieces I have picked up from Germans who are Dobermann breeders now the GSD was quite square, but, these are Dobermann breeders, not GSD breeders, but they all have had involvement with mainly working GSDs of past decades.

Looking at footage of Hitlers Blondi that dog is quite square, so, that would be around 60 years ago, it looks like they had very different conformations then.

Hitler & Blondi

blondi.hitler.WMV - YouTube

Adolf Hitler and Blondi. - YouTube

1939 More Hitler Col/Snd Shots (with Hitler's dog Blondie!) - YouTube

Hitler with Blondi - YouTube

.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lauren, you do realise that the PDE programme by JH wasn't particularly factually correct? Although there are a lot of people who believe it did good to highlight some of the less scrupulous breeders within the show world, it did actually use clips of dogs that weren't shown at all, or show bred even.
> 
> Although some people (as mentioned) believe it did a lot of good, it also did a lot of harm. Show people who have been involved with health testing from the very start, had people walk away from their litters because all pedigree breeds were deemed unhealthy following the airing of this programme, and instead of buying from breeders who health tested and knew their lines inside and out, people bought non-KC registered dogs because they *thought* it MUST mean they were healthier than those dogs shown on the television.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know it did as much damage as it did good... And that's a shame.

Thanks for explaining it properly and not jumping down my throat


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> Those were the dogs I was referring to when I said 'nice' examples.
> 
> I didn't realise the first one was filmed by a member of the public. I've just watched it back and that's pretty obvious now. Apologies.


No problem. I struggle with people slagging off show people, so my bad for being a bit reactive. It drives me insane, because while I don't show OH shows Cian, I love my boy to bits, and I get wound up when people say it's only about looks, they don't care about their dogs... Their dogs suffer. So I apologies if I seem a bit tetchy about it..

While PDE did give some people a boot up the arse they needed, it also unfortunately put all breeders and show people in the same category, which is totally unfair, there are good and bad in everything....


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Meezey said:


> No problem. I struggle with people slagging off show people, so my bad for being a bit reactive. It drives me insane, because while I don't show OH shows Cian, I love my boy to bits, and I get wound up when people say it's only about looks, they don't care about their dogs... Their dogs suffer. So I apologies if I seem a bit tetchy about it..
> 
> While PDE did give some people a boot up the arse they needed, it also unfortunately put all breeders and show people in the same category, which is totally unfair, there are good and bad in everything....


Yeah, I get that. One day I'd love to try my hand at showing. It's a pipeline dream and I know there are more great breeders than horrible ones but I am also very passionate about the health of dogs and the good of the breed... That's why I sometimes open my mouth before thinking... I'd probably be banned from showing TBH


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I looked into getting a GSD very briefly before I settled on a BC. I didn't spend much time looking at kennels because it was so brief that I considered one, but I did find a kennel I liked. If I were to get a GSD I would go for at least one show line before going for a working line (I prefer the working line but I know they can be intense and hard work so would want experience with the show line first). So, it was show line kennels I focused on... well, I have since met a dog from the kennel I liked and in the flesh  Never will I get one of their dogs... this is the one and only dog from their kennel I have met, but that was enough. This dogs walking is terrible, his conformation is terrible and his temperament isn't the greatest either... He put me right off. 

I cannot understand how some GSD people (note, I said 'some') can defend the breeding of dogs like the ones in the videos... very very sad IMO.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> From the bits & pieces I have picked up from Germans who are Dobermann breeders now the GSD was quite square, but, these are Dobermann breeders, not GSD breeders, but they all have had involvement with mainly working GSDs of past decades.
> 
> Looking at footage of Hitlers Blondi that dog is quite square, so, that would be around 60 years ago, it looks like they had very different conformations then.
> 
> ...


That 1st video shows a stressed & fearful dog, judging by her body language  poor girl


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> I looked into getting a GSD very briefly before I settled on a BC. I didn't spend much time looking at kennels because it was so brief that I considered one, but I did find a kennel I liked. If I were to get a GSD I would go for at least one show line before going for a working line (I prefer the working line but I know they can be intense and hard work so would want experience with the show line first). So, it was show line kennels I focused on... well, I have since met a dog from the kennel I liked and in the flesh  Never will I get one of their dogs... this is the one and only dog from their kennel I have met, but that was enough. This dogs walking is terrible, his conformation is terrible and his temperament isn't the greatest either... He put me right off.
> 
> I cannot understand how some GSD people (note, I said 'some') can defend the breeding of dogs like the ones in the videos... very very sad IMO.


There is one show breeder in Scotland who I can highly recommend - when I see her breeding I know that I can approach the dog in confidence that it will be social and outgoing, even though I probably havent met that particular one before.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I've read similar threads to this very often. 

I must say I've seen some lovely examples of the breed locally - saw one mostly black GSD yesterday - wow what a stunner!! 

I think all anyone can do when researching the breed is to do just that - research, research, research. 

I would suggest that anyone seriously interested in GSD's contact Smokeybear as she is very knowledgable on the subject. 

On the subject of Rhodesian Ridgebacks - I've met quite a few without their Ridges. There seem to be quite a few RR's round here. I think there's someone in our town who specialises in the breed which could be why. 

But yes - have met some without Ridges and indeed some very elderly ones at that, bless them!


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Wildmoor said:


> There is one show breeder in Scotland who I can highly recommend - when I see her breeding I know that I can approach the dog in confidence that it will be social and outgoing, even though I probably havent met that particular one before.


Who is the breeder? There is another one I saw who looked good, and I am sure someone on here and another forum, went to visit the breeder and her dogs... although, I might be getting confused, wouldn't be the first time


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

lozzibear said:


> Who is the breeder? There is another one I saw who looked good, and I am sure someone on here and another forum, went to visit the breeder and her dogs... although, I might be getting confused, wouldn't be the first time


Would it be (( conbhairean )) ? I've heard good things about them on 'other forums'.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> Who is the breeder? There is another one I saw who looked good, and I am sure someone on here and another forum, went to visit the breeder and her dogs... although, I might be getting confused, wouldn't be the first time





Hanlou said:


> Would it be (( conbhairean )) ? I've heard good things about them on 'other forums'.


Yes I would recommend Heather's dogs to anyone


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Hanlou said:


> Would it be (( conbhairean )) ? I've heard good things about them on 'other forums'.





Wildmoor said:


> Yes I would recommend Heather's dogs to anyone


Yeah, that is who I was meaning on the second post... not the first post, although I did think at first that the dog in my first post was from there and was horrified but then found out it was a different kennel.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Wildmoor said:


> Yes I would recommend Heather's dogs to anyone


Aha! I'm just pleased I managed to remember their name! 

Yes I've seen them recommended many times. And browsing through their website I can certainly see why...... xx

I love GSD's myself. I can't ever see me owning one but I do love to see them. There's a big 'bear' of a GSD that we see at Teversal sometimes and oh my he's just so majestic! I think Teddy would have like to grow up into a GSD after meeting a gorgeous one when he was very small (he was smitten) ...... haven't quite managed to break it to him yet that this isn't possible lol.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Wildmoor said:


> Yes I would recommend Heather's dogs to anyone


I'll remember that... for future reference... any other breeders you would recommend?


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

other show line breeders? 
If so yes Carol at Antilli, Linda at Korzwin, Sue at Kassieger,
Katrina at Kesyra, Tony at Julanti, Jackie at Amberix & Gazjackhof - different mix of areas throughout the country

Work line it would depend what you want - near me Alan Wood at Clifton - K9 Obedience (Tyguard)


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dogless said:


> But the producers of PDE later had to issue an apology. I have seen ridgeless pups from reputable breeders, but I never asked whether or not they were KC registered. Seeing as RRs are not a very common breed the fact that you have never seen a KC registered ridgeless one isn't unusual I wouldn't have thought. I am not saying that all is perfect, but throwing accusations around without any evidence doesn't seem fair.


Code of ethics.. when did it change? My understanding was after PDE was shown.

The actual apology had nothing to do with the situation, that of culling due to no ridge. It did happen, even at the time of PDE, let's not beat around the bush.. does it still happen.. that's the question but I doubt if everything changed overnight. Over time, with the new code, new people coming in, hopefully it would become/is extremely rare.

The apology regarding PDE was: 

that the film had been imprecise in referring to dermoid sinus in the breed as "a mild form of spina bifida" (The Trust ruled that describing dermoid sinus as a condition similar to a mild form of spina bifida" would be more accurate). 
that the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club/breeders should have been given a right of reply to RSPCA Vet Mark Evans' charge that, in breeding for the ridge, they were breeding for a deformity. (The Trust ruled, however, that Mark Evans was entitled to/qualified to express this view.)


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Goblin said:


> The apology regarding PDE was:
> 
> that the film had been imprecise in referring to dermoid sinus in the breed as "a mild form of spina bifida" (The Trust ruled that describing dermoid sinus as a condition similar to a mild form of spina bifida" would be more accurate).
> that the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club/breeders should have been given a right of reply to RSPCA Vet Mark Evans' charge that, in breeding for the ridge, they were breeding for a deformity. (The Trust ruled, however, that Mark Evans was entitled to/qualified to express this view.)


Of course the proper apology should have included the fact that Dermoid Sinus is not limited to Rhodesian Ridgebacks but also occurs as a hereditary defect in OTHER breeds, including ridgeless Ridgebacks, Akitas and others.

And that Syringomyelia also occurs in a number of other Toy breeds, not just the CKCS, but including Griffons, Papillons and Chihuahuas... with Chuihuahuas being the most commonly overbred BYB breed of choice nowadays.

In fact there was a post on a FB pet group recently where a Chihuahua owner was wondering why her dog keeps trying to scratch its ears despite being given an all-clear by the vet on ear issues... and two other owners chimed in to say theirs do it as well, so it "must be a Chihuahua thing". :glare:


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> This dog which you obviously dislike has his SCH3, clear elbows, clear hips, he is a low hip & elbow producer and no his pups arent in excessive demand he has produced 159 pups out of 29 litters - now if you compare this to a certain Manchester stud dog owners whos dogs have no qualifications and are bred to be oversize longcoats and on average produce 500-600 pups in their stud life


Please point out where I said I didn't like him? I don't like the shape of his back because I prefer a straight back (for aesthetic reasons - I just think they look nicer!), but as I said, he's nowhere near the worst out there, I purely posted him to show that dogs with sloped backs are still excelling in the ring. Nowhere did I say I disliked him or that he was in poor health 

Thank you for clearing it up for everyone else though, I probably should have included it in my post so as not to cause confusion


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> No it isnt the norm it took her 2 years of attending shows to get the cleverly edited footage she did


Wouldn't know about the UK GSDs or that clip but you can see that at the GSD shows here unedited and right in ya face. Check out the Victorian GSD Club website unless they've taken the clips down. I don't go to GSD shows anymore, I can't bear it.

Reference for clips http://www.gsdcv.org.au and check out the "child handlers" vids.

Apparently it's "only" the way they're stacked and the way they have to be to get the "gait". There's nothing wrong with them. : It's those straight backed ones that have the problems especially hip dysplaysia.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> Of course the proper apology should have included the fact that Dermoid Sinus is not limited to Rhodesian Ridgebacks but also occurs as a hereditary defect in OTHER breeds, including ridgeless Ridgebacks, Akitas and others.
> 
> And that Syringomyelia also occurs in a number of other Toy breeds, not just the CKCS, but including Griffons, Papillons and Chihuahuas... with Chuihuahuas being the most commonly overbred BYB breed of choice nowadays.
> 
> In fact there was a post on a FB pet group recently where a Chihuahua owner was wondering why her dog keeps trying to scratch its ears despite being given an all-clear by the vet on ear issues... and two other owners chimed in to say theirs do it as well, so it "must be a Chihuahua thing". :glare:


Why? The problem with Syringomyelia in CKCS was endemic and being ignored and hidden by the breed club, hence the reason to point it out. Telling the "public" about it was seen as a no no and at least one person heavily involved within the breed club was penalized for doing so. As for the BYB argument Don't Blame BYBs for Dalmatians Either may be used to give another perspective.

The fact is the breed clubs concerned dropped the ball and needed a kick to pick it up again.


----------



## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

Meezey said:


> In what way are they suffering? I'm am so interested in knowing this suffering that these two dog in the last video clips are going through?
> 
> Both have good hip score, elbow are good, they move well, Elmo does working trials, please explain what suffering?
> 
> As a few people have pointed out they have had "straight" back GSD who have suffered from CDRM, and trust me that is something awful to have to watch your dog suffer from.


If you cannot see the suffering then why ask?


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mummyschnauzer said:


> If you cannot see the suffering then why ask?


Odd reply.... not all suffering is visible, and not visible at all times. Otherwise there would be no need for eye tests, hip scores, and the myriad other tests for genetic conditions.

The suffering from the blindness due to PRA in the puppy-farmed Cocker my parents bought in the 1960's wasn't visible at point of sale, but the dog did suffer some years later, and suffer she did.


----------



## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Odd question.... not all suffering is visible.[/QUOT
> 
> Well, then I am sorry for you, because it is VISIBLE, for those who want to see it, but if you decide you do not want to see it, then who I am to dissuade you, because it is apparent by the very fact that the dog is dragging its back legs and paws and the whole unhappy demeanour of the dogs body language, that it is suffering from unhappiness. I am not against any person who shows their dogs for the right reason, which is to prolong the breed standard, which entails, health, temperament, and what the dog originally was meant for, not merely what the dog "looks like"


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Well, then I am sorry for you, because it is VISIBLE, for those who want to see it, but if you decide you do not want to see it, then who I am to dissuade you, because it is apparent by the very fact that the dog is dragging its back legs and paws and the whole unhappy demeanour of the dogs body language, that it is suffering from unhappiness. I am not against any person who shows their dogs for the right reason, which is to prolong the breed standard, which entails, health, temperament, and what the dog originally was meant for, not merely what the dog "looks like"


To which GSD are you referring? the video from Manchester which has already received criticism and explanation, or the current show winner? And yet, any of the dogs we're looking at in pictures, could be less uncomfortable than those which are bred with no regard to any testing, by people down your own street.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

I know next to nothing about GSD's , but I do know ive always loved the straight backed look , the sloped look seems abnormal to me , like a deformity , and ive never understood why it seems so popular
poor dogs


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Odd reply.... not all suffering is visible, and not visible at all times. Otherwise there would be no need for eye tests, hip scores, and the myriad other tests for genetic conditions.
> 
> The suffering from the blindness due to PRA in the puppy-farmed Cocker my parents bought in the 1960's wasn't visible at point of sale, but the dog did suffer some years later, and suffer she did.


Your reply has nothing to do with original post, re GSD'S, the videos being shown did show signs of suffering,in the gait of the animal when being walked, I think you are slightly off track with your reply, and I do understand what you have stated above but by no means has it got anything to do with the original post. Sorry I dont mean to shoot you down in flames, but where is the relevance to what you have stated to that of the original post ?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Your reply has nothing to do with original post, re GSD'S, the videos being shown did show signs of suffering,in the gait of the animal when being walked, I think you are slightly off track with your reply, and I do understand what you have stated above but by no means has it got anything to do with the original post. Sorry I dont mean to shoot you down in flames, but where is the relevance to what you have stated to that of the original post ?


Probably because yours didn't directly refer to that itself 

It still stands though, that show breeders account for a very small minority of dogs in the UK. The vast majority are bred with no health concerns or shipped over from puppy farms in their thousands. Show breeders are an easy target - they can't do right for doing wrong in the present climate, when the real focus should be elsewhere.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Probably because yours didn't directly refer to that itself
> 
> It still stands though, that show breeders account for a very small minority of dogs in the UK. The vast majority are bred with no health concerns or shipped over from puppy farms in their thousands. Show breeders are an easy target - they can't do right for doing wrong in the present climate, when the real focus should be elsewhere.


To conclude this conversation, the eye will only see what it wants to see, but for me like I have stated before, so long as the breeder, breeds to prolong the breed standard, for health, breed standard, and the purpose that the dog was originally bred for, then there is no moral objection, but to see a dog that is sometimes bred to be shown for its looks alone then that is surely really sad. I have owned Mini Schnauzers for over 25 years and in some cases it is very sad to see the deterioration in the breed standards in the show ring, where breeders should be proudly showing off their breed specifications to the full.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Oow I hate that look and as the video is from 2008 isn't that look frowned upon by judges now? - or supposed to be. The guy who's GSD was BOB at Crufts two years running is still too sloped for my liking. 

I'd be interested to know what an orthopaedic specialist thought of such conformation - Flynn walked better than that before he had his hip replacements and I kid you not.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

these are examples of how the GSD breed has [IMO] deteriorated - 
obviously, the persons who posted them are using them to brag about the "improvements".

German Shepherd History - German Shepherd Dog history - YouTube

Look at the photo seen at 3:09 - Horand is NOT a good specimen;
he's the 1st registered GSD in history, so a benchmark, nevertheless.
Then see the photo with diagrammatic points added, at 3:50.
They don't appear to be the same *species*, let alone the same *breed.*

Then see 5:56, the 2 head-shots of Strongheart & Rin-Tin-Tin - 
Rinty was the survivor of a bombed-out, burnt-down kennel, found as a pup.
He was the old-fashioned 'wolf markings' type, with minimal grizzle, no blanket, 
& WITH spectacle markings on his face. These were both post-WW2 dogs, with level backs & moderate 
angulation.

Another dog of a slightly later period marked similarly to Rinty was the star of "the Littlest Hobo", 
a popular TV-series.

By 7:10, seriously ski-sloped dogs have begun - in the 1960s showlines. It's literally all downhill from there.

My training-mentor had flown to Germany & chose her foundation stock herself, then flew them home;
that was the early-1950s. I was deeply impressed by her gorgeous dogs, who had not only excellent color 
but wonderful temperament, & solid structure with level backs & moderate angulation.

Mrs Arnold would be stunned speechless, & probably weep with anger, over the current show dogs - 
her dogs excelled in both the show-ring & in Competitive Obedience, as she had Utility titles on many 
of her dogs, *including breeding bitches - * virtually unheard-of in the mid-60s, as there were no 
handy-dandy hormones to shut off estrus & control its onset. U simply had to schedule AROUND the bitch's 
coat loss, estrus cycle, & all the attendant complications, to get any titles or certificates on females.
Most breeders didn't bother; bitches stayed home, males competed.

This clip shows GSD champions individually, by the decade: 1900 - 1910, 1910 to 1920, etc.
DEUTSCHER SHAFERHUND - 110 YEARS OF EVOLUTION-BY EDUARDO DURAN HAEDO - - YouTube

By 1950, the dogs are markedly HEAVIER in frame & body - with massive necks & chests.
By the early-1970s, we're seeing the gradual development of the "Frog Dog", who has a huge forehand, 
an itty-bitty rear, & spraddles when s/he walks. By 5:15, the dogs are IMO grotesque.
And then we enter 1980!... Another 30-years of degradation to come.

Compare the dog at 6:04 [*Fanto vom Hirschel*] with the early-1920s or even 1940s dogs, 
by sliding the red disc backward along the loading / playing line toward the start. U'll be shocked.

In the 1980s, dogs begin to show more & more East-West placement of their forefeet - the pasterns are 
over-angulated & too long, & the dogs prop their heavy forehands by bringing their elbows sharply into 
their ribs, almost pinching the heart-girth, which rotates their wrists outward.

By the time we reach 1990, the dogs now rotate the forward hock PAST the body midline, when they pose;
the paw goes / out, on an angle - the hock behind it, is rotated sharply inward. The back-placed hock, 
by contrast, is somewhat in line with the body-wall on that side. But the croup drops sufficiently 
that some of these male dogs, when they're posed, appear to be bitches squatting to pee.

The dogs in the 2000 - 2010 group? Look at the forward HOCK - it's close to touching the ground, 
while the paw slants outward & the hock ever-more deeply past the dog's midline. 
*Ober Von Bad-Boll*'s right hock is within an inch or two of the inside of his left thigh.

Look at this slow-motion - 
DEUTSCHER SHAFERHUND - 110 YEARS OF EVOLUTION-BY EDUARDO DURAN HAEDO - - YouTube

At 47-seconds the camera is watching ONLY his rear legs - look at that weird gait.
There's so much side-to-side violent swing in his rear, his prepuce comes over with each stride 
& swats him from below, on his right loin - U can almost "hear" the *fwap*.
His forehand is no better - overextended & effortful, with heavy impacts on each paw.

Take a GOOD look at Ober Von Bad-Boll, in 2010 - 
Ober von Bad-Boll VA1 Nürnberg 2010.mp4 - YouTube

He can barely walk, let alone do a flying trot. He clumsily over-reaches his own forefoot with the same-side 
rear paw, on every stride. *This* is the VA-1 at Nuremberg?!

The 2012 Seiger show in Ulm, Deutchland - 
GERMAN SIEGER SHOW 2012 IN ULM -BY EDUARDO DURAN HAEDO- - YouTube

It's too depressing; i can't look any more. :nonod: GSDs were my favorite breed for nearly 20-years; 
to see them lurch around the ring like 4-legged caterpillars is appalling.
.
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

What on earth has that, which you observe, have to do with the breeding conformations???

Are claimed supporters of current UK GSD conformations so far removed from attempting to get the UK GSD's back to health they do not even know the difference between a video example showing conformations & any individual dogs relationship with its owner???

Hitler & Blondi - Observe the CONFORMATIONS of that period!!!

blondi.hitler.WMV - YouTube
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I would suggest that anyone seriously interested in GSD's contact Smokeybear as she is very knowledgable on the subject.


I agree with that, its a pity she did not post on here but maybe she can't be assed with listening to nonsense talked by some of the current GSD conformation supporters on here, I suppose they reflect the future prospects of health for the GSD here not the more responsible element of breed literate posters.
.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Code of ethics.. when did it change? My understanding was after PDE was shown.
> 
> The actual apology had nothing to do with the situation, that of culling due to no ridge. It did happen, even at the time of PDE, let's not beat around the bush.. does it still happen.. that's the question but I doubt if everything changed overnight. *Over time, with the new code, new people coming in, hopefully it would become/is extremely rare.
> *
> ]


Yes, that is my understanding too.

I sincerely hope so and I certainly don't agree with it. My argument is still that the poster who stated *The same as older Ridgeback breeders who cull puppies born without a 'ridge'...* as fact and in the present tense needs to provide evidence and inform the breed club of those that do to ensure that the practice ceases. Or not state it as a fact in the first place.

I have reacted so strongly to the statement as that and the fact that my dogs are deformed and unhealthy creatures who must be suffering great pain due to spina bifida are trotted out at me an awful lot by people who watched PDE. I am not denying that having a ridge can predispose dogs to DS nor that the culling of puppies did happen in the past - whether it still happens now I cannot say for certain of course but it is damaging for it to be stated as fact that it still does.

Change should be acknowledged and allowed to be given a chance by the general public as well as those who love the breed. It helps no one to make baseless accusations.


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

Wildmoor said:


> other show line breeders?
> If so yes Carol at Antilli, Linda at Korzwin, Sue at Kassieger,
> Katrina at Kesyra, Tony at Julanti, Jackie at Amberix & Gazjackhof - different mix of areas throughout the country
> 
> Work line it would depend what you want - near me Alan Wood at Clifton - K9 Obedience (Tyguard)


My friend has had 2 Korzwin dogs since I've known her, both passed away due to old age, absolutely stunning dogs they were.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I have reacted so strongly to the statement as that and the fact that my dogs are deformed and unhealthy creatures who must be suffering great pain due to spina bifida are trotted out at me an awful lot by people who watched PDE. I am not denying that having a ridge can predispose dogs to DS nor that the culling of puppies did happen in the past - whether it still happens now I cannot say for certain of course but it is damaging for it to be stated as fact that it still does.


It all seems a completely different world of dog 'breeding' here compared to
Europe.

In Germany, with Dobermanns, it is mandatory that an appointed DV (German Dobe Club) breed warden to visit a new litter within the first week of life and again before 7-8 weeks, the pups must be chipped, DNA tested for ID, (it used to be tattooed before chips) & all vaccination certs etc examined by the breed warden & heavens else whatever identity issue are thoroughly examined.

Only after all that the breed warden can accept the litter on behalf of DV & then & only then the litter is able to be registered as German pedigree Dobermann dogs with the Breed registration Club, Dobermann Verein, Munich

Starts P 6 below

Dobermann-Verein eV BREEDING RULES

How on earth some people can be against such standard breed registration regulations is beyond me!!!!
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> The 2012 Seiger show in Ulm, Deutchland -
> GERMAN SIEGER SHOW 2012 IN ULM -BY EDUARDO DURAN HAEDO- - YouTube
> 
> It's too depressing; i can't look any more. GSDs were my favorite breed for nearly 20-years;
> to see them lurch around the ring like 4-legged caterpillars is appalling.


Theres to many of them, overbred,there seems to be around 45,000 born in Germany every year, Dobes born there average around 1,300-maybe 1,500 per anum.
.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> It still stands though, that show breeders account for a very small minority of dogs in the UK. The vast majority are bred with no health concerns or shipped over from puppy farms in their thousands. Show breeders are an easy target - they can't do right for doing wrong in the present climate, when the real focus should be elsewhere.


Spot on! I think it's time that the armchair critics realised that *less than 2% of the total registered pedigree dog population is shown.* Yet somehow they think that these 2% of show dog breeders are responsible for all the ills that have befallen dogdom. And why is that? Purely because instead of going to shows and seeing the truth for themselves, they prefer to believe a sensation-seeking journalist and the ex-head vet of a charity which is currently under fire from all sorts of organisations and people because of its own dubious politics and ethics.

No-one is pretending that all show breeders are good - just like in the rest of the world, there are good and bad, and the show world is (and was long before PDE) working to eliminate the bad. However, as you so rightly say, the real problems lay elsewhere and we should be tackling those - but it is far easier to blame the insignificant 2% who are a stitting target rather than tackle the significant 98%.



mummyschnauzer said:


> To conclude this conversation, the eye will only see what it wants to see


Yes, the eye sees only what it wants to see; and you have avoided the question as to why your eye cannot see the difference between the dog in the 2008 video and the dogs in the 2013 video. Is it perhaps that you don't want to see it? Why do you prefer to believe that all show dogs are like the dog in the 2008 video, when the 2013 video clearly shows that not to be the case?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> ex-head vet of a charity which is currently under fire from all sorts of organisations and people because of its own dubious politics and ethics.


Which charity is that? guesswork but is it The Dogs trust?....*ex* head vet, Chris Laurenson used to be head vet of RSPCA, now he's with Dogs Trust!

Don't really matter they are all in it for money one way or another, their own account is their end game.
.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> So are you saying breeders are culling their own puppies? Lets not beat about the bush your saying that breeders are inhumanly killing puppies?
> 
> Maybe they GIVE the puppies away? FOC?


I am not involved in the dog world like I was but it was certainly common to cull puppies. How many white boxers did you see around 40 years ago. When I worked at the vets we had litters of predominantly white collies to pts and I am sure most farmers did not spend money doing it. Sheltie breeders were not too shy at admitting they bred merle to merle and culled the white puppies. Attitudes have changed but they will not have totally changed surely. Whole litters of puppies used to be put in a bucket of water or have their skulls crushed. Actually is that not better than them ending up being passed from home to home and ending up in a rescue. It still happens but now it is thought to be wrong whereas it was the norm. Our old family dog when I was a child had an accidental litter and half the litter was culled so that there would be less mongrels looking for homes -is that actually wrong, I am not sure about it either way.

To get back to the original question. Looking at the video of the 'good' show dogs - I really dont think I would have another German Shepherd if that is how they are supposed to look. It does not appeal to me at all and they were one of my favourite breeds. Mind you I have never seen one with that slope in real life so there must be plenty of pet dogs being bred with straighter backs. My sister has always had one as a guide dog, they are hip scored and they are reasonably straight but they always succumb to hip problems. Her last one has just been retired at 6 years old after a year of struggling with her hips. She is a lovely solid bitch with a good hip score. She was scored as she was going to be bred from initially before she went into training.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> Which charity is that? guesswork but is it The Dogs trust?


Nope. It is the charity whose then head vet called show dogs a parade of mutants on PDE.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

SWeaver - I remember the guy but not his name offhand, I think he was RSPCA, whats hapened with him anyway? personally I would not trust any one of them, they're all in it for the money.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

mummyschnauzer said:


> If you cannot see the suffering then why ask?


So let's get a few things straight here, I personally prefer a GSD with a straighter back, I've posted it on many occasions on here, if your read all of the thread you will see these are the people I approached when looking for a pup! So again explain to me what suffering you see in the Crufts BOB and BCC?

Also while you jump up and down about what the tiny % of show breeders have done to your breed in the last 25 years go look around you at all the byb and puppy farm who have destroyed your breed! I'd be much more concerned about that! Every a second dog I see here is a badly bred dog from your breed, hope you are as vocal about what suffering they are causing YOUR breed!

As for your guff about show dogs being unhappy, come to Driffield I'm there in a few weeks I'll show you how unhappy Cian is, because we show purely for fun, oh and I guess looks!

Elmo looked perfectly happy in his clip showed his socks off and Xoe I know loved her day guess her jumping up in excitement as Suzie is imagined!

I also don't see where anyone said the dog in the first video was fine, it was from 2008 I believe things have moved on from there, and people where responding to Dan that no not all show dogs look like this!


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

leashedForLife;grotesque.
It's too depressing; i can't look any more. :nonod: GSDs were my favorite breed for nearly 20-years;
to see them lurch around the ring like 4-legged caterpillars is appalling.
.
.[/QUOTE said:


> Thank you for your article, and I must agree with your statement above, my sister owned a beautiful GSD, over 20 years ago, a fine specimen of the breed obtained from a breeder in Norfolk her blood lines were so true that my sister couldn't get the papers of the breeder as she had put a block on anybody breeding fron her dogs. She restricted that breeding for herself. He was a fine specimen and lived until he was 12 and 1/2 years with few visits to the Vets. My sister cringes when she sees badly bred GSDS, and wouldn't own one again.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

Originally Posted by MerlinsMum 
Probably because yours didn't directly refer to that itself

It still stands though, that show breeders account for a very small minority of dogs in the UK. The vast majority are bred with no health concerns or shipped over from puppy farms in their thousands. Show breeders are an easy target - they can't do right for doing wrong in the present climate, when the real focus should be elsewhere.

I didn't realize you could show "PUPPY FARMED" dogs at Crufts. Thousands of people are attracted to come to Crufts each year, and I always encourage people to go and ask breeders about particular puppies they wish to obtain, rather than buy them from the back of cars etc. and I must reiterate it should be a place where show dogs are bred for line, health etc., not for the fashion that the person in the street wants. Surely isn't that something you as a good breeder already does, so why are you gettin uppitty, when all I am saying is a GSD bred for showing should be a perfect specimen of the breed, showing good lines, health etc., not a dog that looks deformed.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Spot on! I think it's time that the armchair critics realised that *less than 2% of the total pedigree dog population is shown.*


That would be 2% of pedigree dog population winning titles such as Best Of Breed (BOB) wouldn't it.



Meezey said:


> Also while you jump up and down about what the tiny % of show breeders have done to your breed in the last 25 years go look around you at all the byb and puppy farm who have destroyed your breed!


Ah yes, the don't look at us, after all we don't set standards, blame everyone else.

"We were doing things.." yep, take brachycephalic breeds. Didn't see many improvements or the acknowledgements of the problems since the 80's when there is a video of a vet raising many of the identical issues contained in PDE. That video of course didn't have the impact or publicity PDE had.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

dandogman said:


> As many of you know, I love German Shepherds, and hope to own one some day (a good few years yet!).
> 
> I've been looking around on the net about GSD health and a few breeders websites since I saw Poisongirls ancient thread about breeders.
> 
> ...


Going back to the first post, I am going to add my twopenneth worth.
When looking at Indie's parents on line I noticed her sire's back sloped, something I personally don't like. Photos and film are not always what they seem. On meeting the parents neither had a slope so it was just the way they stand in shows. I spent a lot of time visiting, both dogs moved 'normally' no slope, no wobbly hocks etc. 
Indie seems fine too 

As for show and working lines, Jaz was from the former and Indie the latter. Jaz was the easiest by far, nothing bothered her and she was not the hard work that many believe working lines are.

Any pedigree breed has good and bad examples, please don't let a bad example put anyone off a particular breed.

Now I'm off to the pub for lunch before I need to dive for cover


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Goblin said:


> That would be 2% of pedigree dog population winning titles such as Best Of Breed (BOB) wouldn't it.
> 
> Ah yes, the don't look at us, after all we don't set standards, blame everyone else.
> 
> "We were doing things.." yep, take brachycephalic breeds. Didn't see many improvements or the acknowledgements of the problems since the 80's when there is a video of a vet raising many of the identical issues contained in PDE. That video of course didn't have the impact or publicity PDE had.


Goblin I don't show nor do I breed, I do my bit by not going to shitty breeders! And you say the same thing over and over and over and over, no matter what is said to you, you trot out the same stuff! As I'be said before there is never any point in saying anything to you on any topic as you always assume your right, things could improve 100 fold and you'd still find something to complain about so little point try to discuss anything with you nothing will ever be enough for you!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I prefer the look of the czech and ddr line gsds but there are some less extreme showline dogs and it's the west german showlines that push for health testing and shutzhund. The worst examples of german shepherds I've seen have been the english straight back lines. When we've met them out and about they've seemed very unsound and most of the breeders aren't concerned about health testing, in a breed with as many issues as the gsd has that's a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

We were at a local open show the other week it was one of the few times this year I have shown a whippet and we were in the ring after the GSD's there was only about 4/5 of them. The movement on some of them was terrible how the judge even plaved any of them never mind giving out a BOB I have no idea.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Some of the dogs of course, like I said I don't like the top line of the GSD at the moment, but all people seem to think is that's all that's in the show ring.... because that what people jump on the bandwagon about...

They forget there are other dogs out there:



Best in Show.

4

Reserve Best in Show.

1.

Best of Breeds.

18

Reserve Best of Breeds.

6.
Group 1.

4

Group 2.

2.

Group 3.

2.

Group 4.

1.

Best AVNSC.

3.

Reserve Best A.V.N.S.C.

2.

Best Dog.

3

Best Opposite Sex.

1.

Best Puppy in Show.

1.

Reserve Best Puppy in Show.

1.

Best Puppy.

9.

Reserve Best Puppy.

1.

Group 1 Puppy.

3.

Group 2 Puppy.

3.

Group 3 Puppy.

1.

They base their show dog knowledge around ONE show........


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> I prefer the look of the czech and ddr line gsds but there are some less extreme showline dogs and it's the west german showlines that push for health testing and shutzhund. The worst examples of german shepherds I've seen have been the english straight back lines. When we've met them out and about they've seemed very unsound and most of the breeders aren't concerned about health testing, in a breed with as many issues as the gsd has that's a disaster waiting to happen.


It's a point that is ignore because they are not in Crufts  I had said previously a so called top straight back English line breeder does not hip score, and has thrown dogs with hips scores of 80.. People go on and on about how showing is about looks but are all about how the top line should be straight and not sloping IRRESPECTIVE of all the examples of the health of the dogs hip, elbows etc that they are being shown. So they like the LOOK of a straight backed GSD even though some of the kennels breeding them are throwing hips of 80!!!!!! Yet show people are messing the breed up all because of looks, it's funny that people are missing the hypocrisy of what they are saying..............


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

One english type breeder told me hip scoring was just a kc money making scheme  they were on here not sure how long for though. The heavy bodies and shorter legs don't look quite right to me anyway.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Goblin said:


> That would be 2% of pedigree dog population winning titles such as Best Of Breed (BOB) wouldn't it.


No. Less than 2% of the pedigree dog population are shown. A minute fraction of that 2% will win BOB. With almost every sentence you write you demonstrate you have no real knowledge of what happens in the show world, but surely even you do not believe that every dog entered wins BOB?



Goblin said:


> Ah yes, the don't look at us, after all we don't set standards, blame everyone else.


:Yawn: Same old same old. Still refusing to see the problem is bigger than what is happening with less than 2% of the pedigree dog population. Still trying to make out that the people who point this out to your unlistening ears are somehow trying to shift the blame. Still trying to pretend that if all were rosy in the show world there would be no puppy farmers or bybs. Still blaming less than 2% for the ills that befall the other 98+%.

Ah well, such is the legacy of PDE.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> With almost every sentence you write you demonstrate you have no real knowledge of what happens in the show world, but surely even you do not believe that every dog entered wins BOB?


I didn't say every dog who enters into the show world wins BOB as is obvious, but then misdirection is the main defense isn't it. Same old same old..


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Goblin said:


> I didn't say every dog who enters into the show world wins BOB as is obvious, but then misdirection is the main defense isn't it. Same old same old..


So the dog that has won 18 BOB in the picture? 4 BIS, 1 RBIS...

Not good enough again? This dog is shown and wins, it wasn't at Crufts, so is Crufts the only show that matters in the show calender? You judge the WHOLE show world on that one show ignoring all the other shows throughout the year?

Anyone in dog showing knows it what the judge likes on the day given how the dog shows on that day....

Rottweiler BOB in Crufts, lovely dog not setting the world alight in the other shows throughout the year, nor has he since?


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Goblin said:


> I didn't say every dog who enters into the show world wins BOB as is obvious,


Didn't you? Well, let's see.

I wrote:



Spellweaver said:


> Spot on! I think it's time that the armchair critics realised that *less than 2% of the total pedigree dog population is shown.*


to which you replied:



Goblin said:


> That would be 2% of pedigree dog population winning titles such as Best Of Breed (BOB) wouldn't it.


Oh look, seems like you did say that after all.  If less than 2% is being shown and you post that 2% is wining BOB, what else can you be saying other than every dog shown wins BOB? Well, well, well. Laughable really given the next part of your post:



Goblin said:


> but then misdirection is the main defense isn't it. .


Yep, you keep trying to misdirect but it doesn't work. Perhaps you ought to try a different defense? Same old same old.


----------



## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Tigerneko said:


> Please point out where I said I didn't like him? I don't like the shape of his back because I prefer a straight back (for aesthetic reasons - I just think they look nicer!), but as I said, he's nowhere near the worst out there, I purely posted him to show that dogs with sloped backs are still excelling in the ring. Nowhere did I say I disliked him or that he was in poor health
> 
> Thank you for clearing it up for everyone else though, I probably should have included it in my post so as not to cause confusion


you didnt say the actual words but your tone and content made that clear; 
"but he is still of that type, and I worry how they are going to 'better' him in the future." 
I didnt say you said he was in poor health I was pointing out that he is in good health and passes on good hips & elbows in his progeny, the withers are supposed to be higher than the back and the croup will obviously be lower the back is defined as from the end of the withers to the start of the croup- by 'straight back' are you referring to dogs with low withers and lack of defined croup? Have you seen this dog in person moving at a normal pace? not in stance? 
There are far better dogs than him in the UK and over seas, but with the costs of showing being quite high and the poor economic climate you will only see those dogs/bitches whos owners can afford to campaign them, you also assumed because of his winning there would be hundreds of puppies produced when in fact the pet line dogs produce far more and of poorer quality, health & conformation


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Blitz said:


> To get back to the original question. Looking at the video of the 'good' show dogs - I really dont think I would have another German Shepherd if that is how they are supposed to look. It does not appeal to me at all and they were one of my favourite breeds. *Mind you I have never seen one with that slope in real life so there must be plenty of pet dogs being bred with straighter backs*. My sister has always had one as a guide dog, they are hip scored and they are reasonably straight *but they always succumb to hip problems*. Her last one has just been retired at 6 years old after a year of struggling with her hips. She is a lovely solid bitch with a good hip score. She was scored as she was going to be bred from initially before she went into training.


I will quickly answer the parts in bold
1) you wont see one in real life as they are not in show stance/pulling to the end of the lead or fast gaiting, their backs are level in day to day life 
2) their breeding dogs have poor hip pedigrees - you breed from high and uneven hips it always comes back, it may miss a generation or 2 but it is there, they never hip scored for many generations when it was available


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> They forget there are other dogs out there:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i don't care what he's won.

I don't like the massive forehand & diminutive rear.
I see a heavy neck without much taper, & under his jaw he's got a jowly appearance.

His flews are loose - he will dribble as he pants; i prefer to live with dry-mouthed dogs, thanks.

His rear has the same cow-hocked tendency i've pointed out before - 
the right hock is rotated inward, while the paw below it rotates out.
The foreshortened right hock is close to the ground - the LEFT knee is rotated INward,
the Left HOCK is rotated outward, & the pelvis is lowered. His tailset is very low.

On his forehand, his pasterns are longer than i like, & have IMO too much slope.
His elbows are rotated into his heart-girth, & his forepaws point outward at an angle.

Even his facial profile doesn't please me - he has a slight Roman nose, & a rounded backskull.
I prefer a tapered foreface, scissors bite, & a flatter bear-like backskull.

He's also carrying more weight than i like - YES, i know the judges insist on "substance", but the owners 
should insist upon fitness. His shoulder layback is blurred by fat, a continuation of the hefty 
neck running down into his chest. Speaking of which, there's a fat-pad on the center of his forechest.

All in all, not a GSD i'd want to take home as a pet - let alone one i'd breed.
Sorry, but there it is.  Yes, this is merely my opinion; i'm not a judge, nor a breeder.
However, i've lived with & worked with many GSDs, some mine, many my clients', neighbors', friends',
or relatives' dogs - they WERE my breed of breeds, in my youth.

No longer. :nonod:
.
.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Here we have 2 pictures same dog - WG SL fit for function obtained his HGH at 18 month, works sheep on a daily basis the German style 







[/URL][/IMG]








[/URL][/IMG]

Oh and for those criticising Ober von Bad Boll without seeing him in the flesh guess who the sire is? 
I first saw Ober in 2007 (before he got VA1) when I was considering having a pup out of him from a HGH bitch but unfortunately the breeder wasnt able to keep a pup for 11 month


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i don't care what he's won.
> 
> I don't like the massive forehand & diminutive rear.
> I see a heavy neck without much taper, & under his jaw he's got a jowly appearance.
> ...


this is not the same type of GSD that we like either Meezey was pointing out that there is more than one type of Showline in the UK this is what was known as an 'Alsatian'


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Elmo is a lot better than his father, Zamp but still clearly has a roached back which is highlighted in breed watch and as such should be penalised. I can understand why he is put up BOB, can't understand why he's winning groups and BIS.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Wildmoor said:


> There is one show breeder in Scotland who I can highly recommend - when I see her breeding I know that I can approach the dog in confidence that it will be social and outgoing, even though I probably havent met that particular one before.


I know who that will be without having to ask  I went to the kennels and met her breeding for myself. I loved the dogs outgoing and sociable temperaments and know that if I were to go for a show line, I would choose one from that breeder.

However, my GSDs will now always be of the working line variety.

I love my other GSDs, but my WL boy suits me down to the ground in every aspect.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Moobli said:


> I know who that will be without having to ask  I went to the kennels and met her breeding for myself. I loved the dogs outgoing and sociable temperaments and know that if I were to go for a show line, I would choose one from that breeder.
> 
> However, my GSDs will now always be of the working line variety.
> 
> I love my other GSDs, but my WL boy suits me down to the ground in every aspect.


He is just stunning :001_wub:


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Meezey said:


> He is just stunning :001_wub:


Thank you. I think so too. He also has a wonderful temperament with strangers, children, other dogs, our livestock and other animals. He is strong of nerve and has a lovely sociable temperament.

I just hope I can find another as wonderful when I get another in the future.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Moobli said:


> I know who that will be without having to ask  I went to the kennels and met her breeding for myself. I loved the dogs outgoing and sociable temperaments and know that if I were to go for a show line, I would choose one from that breeder.
> 
> However, my GSDs will now always be of the working line variety.
> 
> I love my other GSDs, but my WL boy suits me down to the ground in every aspect.


That's the kind of german shepherd I love he's stunning :001_tt1:


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> That's the kind of german shepherd I love he's stunning :001_tt1:


Thank you. If only his type, with his nature, were the norm.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Moobli said:


> Thank you. If only his type, with his nature, were the norm.


Very true  OH and I were taking this morning while walking Cian, and have both decided if I want another GSD then we will only be looking at working lines this time, and I'll have to get off my bum and work them for sport  We are planning to work Cian for fun, as he's show lines it's never going to be competition standard ( although he might surprise us) Fun for the dogs either way


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Very true  OH and I were taking this morning while walking Cian, and have both decided if I want another GSD then we will only be looking at working lines this time, and I'll have to get off my bum and work them for sport  We are planning to work Cian for fun, as he's show lines it's never going to be competition standard ( although he might surprise us) Fun for the dogs either way


I think if you choose the right dog from the right lines then they will have an off switch, much like Zak and my working collies do.

I have tried Zak with herding and we have also dabbled a bit in WT and tracking, but he mainly enjoys just being with me whatever I am doing (he goes almost everywhere with me) and adores his long walks.

He is a pet first and foremost and will probably never be a competition dog, but he has a full and happy life, so that is what matters


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

I am no expert on GSD' but that Scots one posted by Moobli looks really good on conformations, nice straight back, alertness to its environment & working role....it's very impressive & a credit to the breeder, as far as a GSD amature view goes.
.


----------



## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

WOW!! That's the German Shepherd of my DREAMS!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

I went looking for "wooly German Shepherd" because someone encountered an owner with a dog they said
was a curly-coated GSD [black] which basically looked like a GSD with a solid black Poodle coat.

I didn't find any curly AKA wooly GSDs; i did, however, find this:
Shadow Valley German Shepherds

I am officially depressed, now. Particularly horrified by








That photo is one of their bitches at the *Canadian National*. :cryin:
.
.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The american gsds seem worse than the european dogs somehow. I've seen a couple of kennels that are breeding so they are just show enough to do well in the ring but are sound and pride themselves on obedience titles. They are by far the minority though.

The gsd that took the herding group at Westminster last year I think, lauded as this great new era for the breed. I was watching the best in show coverage and yes he looked amazing on the trot but the camera caught him going back to his spot as it panned around to the irish setter and he looked horrific walking down the side of the ring :frown2:


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Moobli said:


> I know who that will be without having to ask  I went to the kennels and met her breeding for myself. I loved the dogs outgoing and sociable temperaments and know that if I were to go for a show line, I would choose one from that breeder.
> 
> However, my GSDs will now always be of the working line variety.
> 
> I love my other GSDs, but my WL boy suits me down to the ground in every aspect.


This dog is one of the best, if not the best GSD's I've seen - I'm even counting breeders websites in that. I don't think I could go for a show line if I could give a working GSD what it needs... they are in a different league! How much exercise does he need, for future reference?


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

dandogman said:


> This dog is one of the best, if not the best GSD's I've seen - I'm even counting breeders websites in that. I don't think I could go for a show line if I could give a working GSD what it needs... they are in a different league! How much exercise does he need, for future reference?


Thank you. I am biased, but I think he is one of the best I have ever seen too 

He does get plenty of exercise - but it is hard to quantify, as we do regular walks (of usually 1-2 hours in the morning), then he is out and about with me around the farm and in the fields in the afternoon, and then another scheduled walk late afternoon or evening - of another hour or two, depending. I have found he is a dog that wants to be with me - whatever I am doing, and wherever I am going and because he is involved in every aspect of my day, he is happy and fulfilled.

I am not sure he would cope if I were working full time and leaving him for hours on his own.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Moobli said:


> Thank you. I am biased, but I think he is one of the best I have ever seen too
> 
> He does get plenty of exercise - but it is hard to quantify, as we do regular walks (of usually 1-2 hours in the morning), then he is out and about with me around the farm and in the fields in the afternoon, and then another scheduled walk late afternoon or evening - of another hour or two, depending. I have found he is a dog that wants to be with me - whatever I am doing, and wherever I am going and because he is involved in every aspect of my day, he is happy and fulfilled.
> 
> I am not sure he would cope if I were working full time and leaving him for hours on his own.


He sounds like a lucky boy! I think that's the best life for a dog to be honest. My dogs would go everywhere with me if they could! 
Sounds like I'll have to wait until I join the police/dog unit then!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

elsewhere on PF-uk, but take a look at these working-line GSDs.

Schutzhund in Action Working Dog Show - YouTube

Some of them are nearly as bizarrely-constructed in the rear as show-line dogs, they half-squat while walking 
like an infant with a diaper full of poo, & they bunny-hop when they run, because they cannot gallop - 
a 4-beat gait is not comfortable, so they use both rear legs as if they are hobbled together by ties.

So much for _"they look perfectly normal when they aren't gaiting at the trot in the ring..."_
These dogs are not shining the crowd on with a 'flying trot', they're supposed to be chasing bad guys, 
biting bad-guys, & shadowing their handler at heel whilst keeping the handler's pace.

Quite a few of these working dogs walk very oddly. I wish i could attach names to individual dogs - 
but it's a montage. 
.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> elsewhere on PF-uk, but take a look at these working-line GSDs.
> 
> Schutzhund in Action Working Dog Show - YouTube
> 
> ...


I can only see two different dogs in that clip, the sable and the black and tan? or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time...


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> elsewhere on PF-uk, but take a look at these working-line GSDs.
> 
> Schutzhund in Action Working Dog Show - YouTube
> 
> ...


I think it's only 2 gsds in that clip and the malinois but the sable moves very strangely :frown2:


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Black and Tan?

Vongalanberg Kai Schutzhund Qualified Stud Dog UK GSD | Vislor Dog Training

Sable

Nikita Von Der Mohnwiese Schutzhund Qualified Female GSD UK | Vislor Dog Training

Don't know know who the Mal is but this is it's handler

Lewis Hartley » North K9 Dog Training


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> elsewhere on PF-uk, but take a look at these working-line GSDs.
> 
> Schutzhund in Action Working Dog Show - YouTube
> 
> ...


Ask them they have just posted it in General chat I see, I'm sure they would discuss their dogs?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I can only see two different dogs in that clip, the sable and the black and tan? or am I missing something?
> Wouldn't be the first time...


i thought there were 3 GSD?... One heavily-blanketed, & 2 sable, with 1 sable lighter than the other?

BTW, that's the only "fat" Malinois i've ever seen in my life, & while this Mal is pudgy rather than morbidly obese,
i still don't like the look - nor i'm sure do the dog's joints appreciate the extra load. :nonod:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Black and Tan?
> 
> Vongalanberg Kai Schutzhund Qualified Stud Dog UK GSD | Vislor Dog Training


Thanks, Meezey! :thumbup:

i looked at this one, as Comp-Obed shows several speeds & angles - 
WUSV WM World Championship 2012 Vongalanberg Kai B. 91 - YouTube

WATCH when the handler turns right & walks at an angle away from the camera - 
watch the dog's hocks swing, & they nearly touch the ground on each stride.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

This clip shows a senior Siberian, he's a bit pudgy, but despite that, when he walks AWAY from the camera,
U don't see his hocks trace figure-8s, nor do they virtually slap the length from paw-pad to hock-angle 
flat on the ground:

Siberian Husky Off-Lead Obedience - YouTube

I'll try to find a Malinois for a close-coated rear [no petticoats] so we can see the action better.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Ask them... I'm sure they would discuss their dogs?


I've asked, hopefully s/he is still on the forum; i know it's nearly 9-PM in the UK, & it's Friday, too.
Here's hoping...


----------



## Megan_M (Jul 13, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Black and Tan?
> 
> Vongalanberg Kai Schutzhund Qualified Stud Dog UK GSD | Vislor Dog Training
> 
> ...


The black and tan is I believe Ashley's own bitch a Kai daughter Vislor Antilly (a friend has one of her sisters) and the Sable(and mal) are Lewis' own dogs although the gsd was bred by vislor(I think he might be a Nikita son) I believe



leashedForLife said:


> i thought there were 3 GSD?... One heavily-blanketed, & 2 sable, with 1 sable lighter than the other?
> 
> BTW, that's the only "fat" Malinois i've ever seen in my life, & while this Mal is pudgy rather than morbidly obese,
> i still don't like the look - nor i'm sure do the dog's joints appreciate the extra load. :nonod:


Only 2 gsd's and one mal...just filmed at different times of the day so the dog looks lighter in some sections

And I don't believe the mal is fat having seen it in real life he's just a big dog


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Megan_M said:


> The B&T is, I believe, Ashley's own bitch - a Kai daughter: Vislor Antilly...


So Kai is her sire?

here she is during training-session at 15-MO
Obedience and Protection Vislor Antilly - YouTube

again, watch her rear, particularly as she walks away from the camera.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Megan_M said:


> ... the Sable [is] Lewis' own dog... the GSD was bred by Vislor (I think he might be a Nikita son), I believe.


Thanks! :yesnod: Might this be him? A Nikita son, B-litter, *Bulmer*.

Vislor Bulmer and Biene IPO Obedience and Protection - YouTube

Again, particularly when he moves away from the camera, & his rear faces the camera.


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i thought there were 3 GSD?... One heavily-blanketed, & 2 sable, with 1 sable lighter than the other?
> 
> BTW, that's the only "fat" Malinois i've ever seen in my life, & while this Mal is pudgy rather than morbidly obese,
> i still don't like the look - nor i'm sure do the dog's joints appreciate the extra load. :nonod:


The Mali could be broad-barrelled... Rue is like this, with an unusually wide sprung rib cage. Hard to keep a dog of that build looking lean if the loin fills in, particularly if the loin is also short. Only takes a couple of extra pounds to do that, while a narrower bodied dog with a longer loin could take that weight and still look slender.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I have only read the first post, but the breeder I have my eye on shows HOWEVER! All of hers are straight back! hip elbow scored and a few other tests I cant think of.

straight backs for me :thumbup1:


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> I have only read the first post, but the breeder I have my eye on shows HOWEVER! All of hers are straight back! hip elbow scored and a few other tests I cant think of.
> 
> straight backs for me :thumbup1:


What kennel is that?


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## Vislor (Nov 14, 2012)

Am I reading this right, you think Kai, Anti and Bulmer have sloping backs?


----------



## Vislor (Nov 14, 2012)

And that Zico, the working Mali, is fat?


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## lisablair (Mar 30, 2010)

There is only one person I would ever go to for a GSD, he does some beautiful ones


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Vislor said:


> Am I reading this right, you think Kai, Anti and Bulmer have sloping backs?





Vislor said:


> And that Zico, the working Mali, is fat?


I would just ignore the person Ash, they like to think they know about the GSD but on another thread started going on about a condition in Blue & white dogs! when have you ever seen a Blue & white GSD :mad2:


----------



## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

The You Tube video of German champion GSDs shows they were a lighter Alsatian type until the 1970s/1980s - maybe with longer legs and less rear angulation, ie NORMAL dogs.

I was brought up watching Champion the Wonder Horse and loved Rebel the GSD nearly as much as the horse! A cousin had a GSD bitch who had a litter, and my favourite I nick-named Rebel, and sulked when my parents would not let me have him....I was around 8 at the time!


----------



## Vislor (Nov 14, 2012)

Wildmoor said:


> I would just ignore the person Ash, they like to think they know about the GSD but on another thread started going on about a condition in Blue & white dogs! when have you ever seen a Blue & white GSD :mad2:


I suppose... Just find it extraordinary that someone can say that my perfect little pickle princess has even a remotely sloping back!

I mean I took this screenshot from this video Obedience and Protection Vislor Antilly - YouTube that they are citing as an example and I can't see how her back could be any straighter?

I know its because a lot of people aren't used to seeing dogs give total attention in obedience, but to put proper healthy Working German Shepherds with excellent health scores and working qualifications in the same category as the worst excesses of the Showline breeding (not all of which is inherently bad, only the extreme cases) distresses me :mad2:


----------



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Vislor said:


> I suppose... Just find it extraordinary that someone can say that my perfect little pickle princess has even a remotely sloping back!
> 
> I mean I took this screenshot from this video Obedience and Protection Vislor Antilly - YouTube that they are citing as an example and I can't see how her back could be any straighter?
> 
> I know its because a lot of people aren't used to seeing dogs give total attention in obedience, but to put proper healthy Working German Shepherds with excellent health scores and working qualifications in the same category as the worst excesses of the Showline breeding (not all of which is inherently bad, only the extreme cases) distresses me :mad2:


Your GSD is gorgeous and is definiatly straight backed. I wish I could get total attention like that from my boy


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Vislor said:


> I know its because a lot of people aren't used to seeing dogs give total attention in obedience


I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Your dog is walking slightly off center because she is giving the handler complete and utter attention and not concentrating on walking straight! Even I can see that and I am by no means an expert on these things.

I love how she's wagging her tail the whole way through!


----------



## Vislor (Nov 14, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Your dog is walking slightly off center because she is giving the handler complete and utter attention and not concentrating on walking straight! Even I can see that and I am by no means an expert on these things.
> 
> I love how she's wagging her tail the whole way through!


Exactly, if she was at all uncomfortable or unhappy with it she certainly wouldn't be showing so much outward fun.

I wonder what people will criticise next. Perhaps her coat is too shiny or her eyes are too bright?


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Vislor said:


> Exactly, if she was at all uncomfortable or unhappy with it she certainly wouldn't be showing so much outward fun.
> 
> I wonder what people will criticise next. Perhaps her coat is too shiny or her eyes are too bright?


I watched several of the clips on Youtube last night .... couldn't stop tbh as they were amazing! 

She looked like she enjoyed her work so much & it was brilliant to watch :thumbup1:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> ...they like to think they know about the GSD but on another thread started going on about a condition
> in Blue & white dogs!


That's extremely misleading - I was talking about *blue dog syndrome*, which can occur in any 'blue' dog 
of any breed whatsoever. I wasn't referring SOLELY to GSDs, & i've already told U that on the original thread...

to refresh Ur memory: the particular SINGLE POST
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1063142556-post68.html

Seems U have more of a vested interest in making me look ignorant, than in relaying accurate info?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Vislor said:


> ...you think Kai, Anti and Bulmer have sloping backs?


I haven't seen a still photo of any of the 3 dogs standing in profile, posed or unposed - 
so i can't say that.

i spoke about their *rear movement*, which appears to indicate the same long thigh & extremely short 
paw-to-hock length of the show-line banana-backs, altho obviously they are not as exaggerated.

It's my opinion, nothing more nor less - & i stand by it. It's more obvious in the sable GSD.


----------



## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> That's extremely misleading - I was talking about *blue dog syndrome*, which can occur in any 'blue' dog
> of any breed whatsoever. I wasn't referring SOLELY to GSDs, & i've already told U that on the original thread...
> 
> to refresh Ur memory: the particular SINGLE POST
> ...


That is a pet term for CDA 
again you resort to text speach and misinform people and I have told you in GSDs CDA only appears in blue dogs from dilute parents not in blue GSDs from standard colour parents


----------



## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Wildmoor said:


> Here we have 2 pictures same dog - WG SL fit for function obtained his HGH at 18 month, works sheep on a daily basis the German style
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Guess who got V1 in the HGH class again this year in Kassel!
V1 Cowboy vom Deutschen Königshof 
them WG SL you all critise and say cant work 

Guess who got the HGH Sieger last year?
Ella vom Bietgraben - oops another whos male line is SL female line is mix of WL & SL I cant tell you is the winner this year as the trial doesnt start yet,
20 - 22nd Sept


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> That is a pet term for CDA
> again you resort to text speach and misinform people and I have told you in GSDs CDA only appears in blue dogs from dilute parents not in blue GSDs from standard colour parents


Colour Dilution Alopecia
Dog Coat Colour Genetics
Scroll down to Dilutes.

It is possible there is more than one allelle of D in the GSD, one which causes CDA, and another which doesn't. This also explains why some breeds don't suffer from CDA and others do.


----------



## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> Colour Dilution Alopecia
> Dog Coat Colour Genetics
> Scroll down to Dilutes.
> 
> It is possible there is more than one allelle of D in the GSD, one which causes CDA, and another which doesn't. This also explains why some breeds don't suffer from CDA and others do.


thats why it probably only occurs in those dilutes born from dilute parents rather than in all dilutes in the GSD


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

This is my dog

he has won at Crufts (Working Trial Class)

he has the following qualifications:

AD BH SchH1 SchH2 SchH3 CDex UDex WDex (2 x TD Opens)

Graded G at the British Sieger

Temperament Tested "Excellent"

Competed at the GSDL Nationals

Unfortunately retired early due to a back injury.

There are many of this type and quality in the UK.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> I haven't seen a still photo of [Kai, Antille, or Bulmer] standing in profile, posed or unposed -
> so i can't say that.
> 
> i spoke about their *rear movement*, which appears to indicate the same long thigh & extremely short
> ...


below is a photo of a dog that supposedly works sheep daily - altho i find that hard to credit, given his structure - 
along with my comments. This, if i understand correctly [as the OP never gave the dog a name, but there's 
a name in the lower photo's web-code] is "Cowboy vom Deutschen Koumlnigshof".



Wildmoor said:


> *my edits, guesses, & additions are within [brackets] - terry*
> 
> Here we have 2 pictures [of the] same dog -
> WG SL "fit for function", [he] obtained his HGH at 18-MO & works sheep on a daily basis-
> ...


It's apparent that Ober didn't get his rear structure from any stranger. I rest my case - 
with a thud. This dog may herd sheep, but IMO he's not "fit for function" nor would i say, 
_"breed this dog! - we need *more* like him."_

His back obviously slopes from a tall front with an excessively deep chest, to a twee rear with a low croup.
He looks like 2 dogs with a hinge connecting them at the end of the ribcage, not one dog with a holistic design.
That extremely-deep chest is so narrow, it resembles a boat prow; his elbows almost touch under it,
& his forefeet & forelegs are nearly a unipod, not 2 distinct limbs supporting a torso, which of course is the 
heaviest section of the body, what with ribcage, organs, neck, skull, brains, & the muscle to move them all.

His thighs are long, his hocks are so short that he's forced to compensate - the forward hock nearly touches 
the ground, while the rearward leg has an out-angled thigh, & INWARD-twisted knee; both rear paws point 
outward, the forward rear-paw even more than the rearmost one.

Please don't bother telling me that he'll "straighten up" as soon as he's not in show pose - that's nonsense.
It's his structure, not his posture, that is the problem. There are plenty of UTube videos of show-line GSDs
moving around the ring, not only in the 'flying trot' but at a walk, halting to stand on all 4s unposed, & thru 
the various transitions of gait & stationary. It's easy to see that it is NOT a matter of "how s/he stands";
it very clearly also decides how s/he moves, because structure dictates movement - poor structure limits
movement, making some actions awkward, or even impossible.

A modern Engl. Bulldog can no more walk WITHOUT "rolling" than s/he can breathe without snuffling - 
both due to altered body-structure, & not for the better of the breed, merely to satisfy human fancy.
.
.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Your post does make me laugh.

Thank you.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Again so people complain that "show" people are all about looks, yet every single time on this thread and over previous to it, when it's proven the dogs either competes or works it's poo poo'd, health hips, elbows, eyes etc and it does work but still considered not fit for function..........  Seriously what is that about.. I don't particularly like the modern GSD, BUT I certainly wouldn't critique someone else's dog, they didn't ask you too so why would you be so rude too? The fact that the dogs are health, the dogs do work means nothing then? YOU are basing this solely on looks.. If you don't like it you don't like it, why would you be so rude about someone else's dog if they wanted a critique about their dog I'm sure they would take them to a show ring and get one by someone qualified to critique their dog...............

I just find it the high of bad manners to be so judgmental about someones dog..........................................


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Your post does make me laugh.


Do U mean this one?... re "Cowboy", seen in 2 photos, above?
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1063169142-post179.html

If so, the only photo i've seen of Ur dog is the one seated, behind the loving cups.

Do U admire the conformation shown by "Cowboy" & his son, Ober?
How closely would Ur dog resemble them, photographed standing unposed, side-on the camera?

Would U be willing to post a side-shot, knowing that it may be critiqued?

Meezey seems to think no-one should post an opinion about any dog, without prior permission from the owner;
since i've been critiquing dogs whose photos & videos are posted publicly on-line, i consider that permission 
has already been tacitly given; if U don't want any criticism whatever, whether minor or major, then IMO 
U shouldn't post any photos, nor videos, nor should U show Ur dog in the breed-ring... since criticism as well 
as enthusiasm are going to be inevitable. :bored: No one dog will make EVERYone happy; something as minor 
as pigment or markings can please or displease individuals - earset, sable vs tri, lots of chrome, all sorts of minor 
differences in any breed or individual will thrill one person, & turn someone else off. ::shrug:: It's preferences - 
vanilla vs chocolate; then there are functional differences, above & beyond that, & health concerns that can be
entirely invisible to anyone.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ...people complain that "show" people are all about looks...


Meezey, 
when i SEE a dog with stenotic nares, i KNOW that means the dog has extremely narrow sinuses.

It's the outward sign of a dysfunctional structure, which impedes breathing, reduces cooling efficiency, 
makes that dog more susceptible to infections / allergies, limits their exercise tolerance & endurance, 
makes hot / humid environments more dangerous & more uncomfortable, & more.

It's *visible* - but it's not "just looks". Skeletal structure is not "just looks", either.
.
.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Meezey,
> when i SEE a dog with stenotic nares, i KNOW that means the dog has extremely narrow sinuses.
> 
> It's the outward sign of a dysfunctional structure, which impedes breathing, reduces cooling efficiency,
> ...


Yet you are picking to bits someones dog, who can't come and prove or disprove your critiques, these dogs are working so I can assume that they are "Fit for Function" I would be seriously piss if someone posted pictures of my dogs and picked them to pieces without giving me the right to reply, Thankfully Vislor got a right to reply when their dogs where picked apart...

Again I am not for the modern show lines GSD, I just feel uncomfortable and find it a tad rude that people can be so critical about what is possibly someones pride and joy.. It doesn't sit right with me... Looking at a dog in pictures, is often very very different than seeing the dog in the flesh.. Just my thoughts, and it just doesn't sit comfortable with me....:001_unsure:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ...you are picking to bits someone's dog, *who can't come and prove or disprove your critiques*...


Huh?  I am expressing an opinion on what i see; the owner can offer their opinion, too.
They don't have to travel to my neighborhood, to let me SEE the dog in person!


Meezey said:


> I would be seriously [pissed] if someone posted pictures of my dogs & picked them to pieces
> without giving me the right to reply...


Who said the owner is NOT ALLOWED to reply, or express an entirely different opinion? 
Not i.
.
.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Huh?  I am expressing an opinion on what i see; the owner can offer their opinion, too.
> They don't have to travel to my neighborhood, to let me SEE the dog in person!
> 
> Who said the owner is NOT ALLOWED to reply, or express an entirely different opinion?
> ...


How can they other than SmokeyBear & Vislor the other owners are not on here? FYI just because I post pictures of my dog on line DOES NOT give people the right to critique them, unless I invite them too, we attend shows so that people qualified to judge a breed can critique my dog, so they can get hands on, and see natural movement.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ... just because I post pictures of my dog on-line DOES NOT give people the right to critique them,
> unless I invite them [to], we attend shows so that people qualified to judge a breed can critique my dog,
> ... they can get hands-on, and see natural movement.


i disagree.

i don't have to get my hands on a dog to see stenotic nares, rolls or slabs of fat, bad structure, or other 
visible faults.

video can show "natural movement" very well, when we are not present at the scene.

I can't SEE bad knees or dysplastic hips, but i CAN see a dog who paces vs trots, which is symptomatic 
of pain in the dog's hindquarters & moves wt onto the forehand, overloading the elbows & forelegs, but does 
relieve the dog's discomfort.


----------



## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> but i CAN see a dog who paces vs trots, which is symptomatic
> of pain in the dog's hindquarters & moves wt onto the forehand, overloading the elbows & forelegs, but does
> relieve the dog's discomfort.


I rather think my JRT cross Paces - by which I'm kind of thinking of the dog equivalent of the "Extended trot"/ glide you see a lot with certain types of horses.

Stalking something when he knows where he's going usually gets it going.

He also has a walk/ trot/ Bambi arse around/ and Bullet.

Oops off topic

On the subject of online photos, if I put them up I expect people will probably comment on them. If I sent them to someone who then spread them over the internet I'd be pissed but otherwise it's rough with the smooth.

JMO


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> i disagree.
> 
> i don't have to get my hands on a dog to see stenotic nares, rolls or slabs of fat, bad structure, or other
> visible faults.
> ...


BUT who asked you to critique the dogs?

Because these are really relevant to health of the dog...........

"Even his facial profile doesn't please me - he has a slight Roman nose, & a rounded backskull.
I prefer a tapered foreface, scissors bite, & a flatter bear-like backskull."

"His flews are loose - he will dribble as he pants; i prefer to live with dry-mouthed dogs, thanks."

When I was merely pointing out there were two different "types" in the ring this dogs lines being from the US...

again you took someones video and made comments like this

"they half-squat while walking 
like an infant with a diaper full of poo"

Yet when the owner addressed this you chose not to respond..

There is disliking dogs, and being concerned about their health and then there is just being rude..


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sosha said:


> I rather think my JRT cross Paces - by which I'm kind of thinking of the dog equivalent of the "Extended trot"/ glide you see a lot with certain types of horses.
> 
> Stalking something when he knows where he's going usually gets it going.
> 
> ...


Commenting on them is not an issue, saying you don't like them fine, ripping them to shreds not on.. IMHO


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ...when the owner [responded], you chose not to respond.


huh?!  Yes, i did - very directly.

Single post, in reply:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1063162861-post173.html



> _
> 
> I haven't seen a still photo of any of the 3 dogs standing in profile, posed or unposed -
> so i can't say that.
> ...


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> BUT who asked you to critique the dogs?


who ASKED DanDogMan to opine?

Who ASKED PoisonGirl?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/108451-what-do-you-think-these-gsds.html


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sosha said:


> I rather think my JRT cross Paces...
> 
> I'm ...thinking of the dog equivalent of the "Extended trot"/ glide you see... with certain types of horses.


pace is a 2-beat gait, with BOTH legs on the SAME side moving together, forward & back.

trot is a 2-beat gait, with DIAGONAL legs moving together, forward & back.

Pacing is AKA 'camel walk' - it's also why camels lurch from side to side, which takes getting accustomed to,
as the human in the saddle is at the pinnacle of the swing & thus it's a powerful rhythmic right, left, right... 
very uncomfortable, very unlike the balanced 4-beat walk of a horse.

An extended trot is a trot - diagonal legs move together, right fore & left rear, left fore & right rear.

A canter is a 3-beat gait, with the lead fore striking first, then the other fore, then both rear hooves.

A gallop is another 4-beat gait, with a double suspension - 2 moments when the horse's hooves are ALL 4 
off the ground, simultaneously, in each stride; cheetahs & sighthounds also have double-suspension gallops, 
in addition to horses.
.
.
.
.


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> A gallop is another 4-beat gait, with a double suspension - 2 moments when the horse's hooves are ALL 4
> off the ground, simultaneously, in each stride; cheetahs & sighthounds also have double-suspension gallops,
> in addition to horses.


Horses don't have two moments of suspension during gallop, only one. When horses are stretched out in gallop they have at least one foot on the ground all the time.

You can see it quite clearly in these two sow motion videos:

[youtube_browser]OcD1_jvhc_g[/youtube_browser]

[youtube_browser]zQDAUv6d_KY[/youtube_browser]


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

The double suspension gallop, as demonstrated by sighthounds and cheetahs, is very different to a horse's gallop.

[youtube_browser]gNhbhq0-5Xc[/youtube_browser]

[youtube_browser]B4nd9GF1dRg[/youtube_browser]


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Horses don't have two moments of suspension during gallop, only one.
> 
> When horses are stretched out in gallop *they have at least one foot on the ground all the time*.


Actually, horses can use a single-suspension gallop, & IIRC lighter horses can *also* perform the double-suspension.
Cold bloods & warm bloods are too massive for any possibility of double-suspension.

From:
Animal gaits

QUOTE:
_"Here are the 4-beat possibilities, with the left hind listed first in all cases:

1 - 
Left hind, left fore, right hind, right fore. With even timing and no suspension, this is the normal walk 
sequence & also the basis (often with uneven timing) of the "easy" gaits. It is also the footfall sequence of 
a very relaxed, uncollected lope, or slow canter, though in that case there is a brief period of suspension 
between one forefoot & the following hind foot, and the other fore & hind diagonal strike the ground 
very close_ [in sequence]_ to each other.

2 - 
Left hind, left fore, right fore, right hind. This is the rotatory gallop sequence, with a period of suspension 
between the right fore & the right hind (single suspended rotatory gallop) and sometimes another, between 
the left hind & the left fore (Double suspended rotatory gallop.) 
Most mammal species show a definite preference for either the rotatory or the transverse gallop, but most 
are capable of doing either. 
A horse "disunited" at the gallop, for instance, is simply performing a rotatory gallop, which is 
a good deal less-comfortable for the rider.

3 - 
Left hind, right hind, left fore, right fore. This is the transverse gallop sequence, with a period 
of suspension between the right fore (the lead fore) & the left hind. There could be a second period 
of suspension between the right hind & the left fore, giving a double suspension transverse gallop. 
This does not seem to occur normally in horses, but it may occur at times in lighter animals, including 
those who normally utilize a rotatory gallop. At a walking pace, sequences 2 - 5 would require extreme 
shortening & lengthening of the body, which is probably why these footfall sequences occur in horses 
only with suspension.

Animals with extreme longitudinal flexibility (e-g, ferrets) might be capable of using these gallop footfall 
sequences without suspension, though I am aware of no proof, one way or the other.

4 -
Left hind, right hind, right fore, left fore. This is a mirror image of the rotatory gallop described above. 
It is a rotatory gallop, but with the rotation going in the opposite direction and the main suspension phase 
between the left fore & the left hind.

5 - 
Left hind, right fore, left fore, right hind. This is a mirror image of the transverse gallop, but on 
the left-lead, rather than the right. The main suspension period is between the left fore & the right hind."_


----------



## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> below is a photo of a dog that supposedly works sheep daily - altho i find that hard to credit, given his structure -
> along with my comments. This, if i understand correctly [as the OP never gave the dog a name, but there's
> a name in the lower photo's web-code] is "Cowboy vom Deutschen Koumlnigshof".
> 
> ...


I see you have been nosing around on my pb account that is the upload code as I posted when I quoted the photos his name is V1 Cowboy vom Deutschen Königshof - it is obvious you know nothing about GSDs as you would have known that code is not his name 
Again you show your limited knowledge on structure and also herding with GSDs or various Hütehunds in Europe 
What do you want me to do post his owners pics in their Shepherd gear as both his owner and the daughter are registered shepherds, you need to be a registered shepherd to enter for the HGH degree and trials, along with obtaining the show grading on your HGH dog/bitch.
Why does it always take you several days to respond - are you busy with your friend 'Google' :ihih:


----------



## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Do U mean this one?... re "Cowboy", seen in 2 photos, above?
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/1063169142-post179.html
> 
> If so, the only photo i've seen of Ur dog is the one seated, behind the loving cups.
> ...


The more you post the more you look and sound ridiculous did I say Ober was Cowboy's son? no I didnt I posted Cowboy's name and said guess who the sire is - obviously cant read and again show your lack of knowledge as you would know Ober is too old to be Cowboy's son it is the other way around


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> Actually, horses can use a single-suspension gallop, & IIRC lighter horses can *also* perform the double-suspension.
> Cold bloods & warm bloods are too massive for any possibility of double-suspension.


The possible sequences of footfalls on that page are not those normal to horses alone but all possible sequences that could be used by any four legged animal moving at high speed.

It does point out that a second moment of suspension "may" occur and that it is certainly not the norm for horses.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Commenting on them is not an issue, saying you don't like them fine, ripping them to shreds not on.. IMHO


I agree with you although, tbh if I had dogs as amazing as was shown in those clips, I wouldn't give sh*t what people on a pet forum said


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> BUT who asked you to critique the dogs?


And then there's these...


dandogman said:


> I'm absolutely horrified at the weakness in their hocks - they invert on themselves!...
> 
> GSDs at Manchester Show 2008 - YouTube





IrishEyes said:


> I feel very sorry for that dog, apart from not looking right, walking seems to look difficult for him / her.
> The back legs look way too short, very sad in my opinion.





sharloid said:


> That's painful to watch, I'm grimacing. Poor, poor dog.





picaresque said:


> Grotesque.





Tigerneko said:


> Disgusting
> 
> I have never really seen many GSD's in the show ring, next time i'm at a show on the same day as them
> i'm going to wander over and see if they really are as bad as these videos always make out or if they're
> ...





SammyJo said:


> They look awful





chichi said:


> Absolutely awful! Poor dog
> 
> It's this sort of thing that makes me wonder what is happening in the dog show world
> 
> ...





zedder said:


> They look wrong - why people would breed weak, sickly dogs is beyond me; just plain cruel, IMO.





Happy Paws said:


> Disgusting





Tigerneko said:


> ...the slope backed dogs are still in demand and are still winning the shows, this is the current top GSD
> in the UK, at the moment:
> 
> 
> ...





HandsomeHound said:


> We went to 2 really big dog shows last year, and unfortunately the very sloped backed GSD's were the norm.
> It looks awful, almost like they're walking on their knees.
> 
> We've seen 2 this last week whilst out walking, both with incredibly sloped backs. Apart from looking
> terrible, surely this can't be good for them?





Lauren5159 said:


> Yes, but being in demand is part of the problem. If they weren't so 'in demand' there wouldn't be
> as big a problem... If people cared more about the health of their dogs, rather than 'the look',
> these kind of problems, one would think, would be looked at.


Who asked THEM to opine?

Why is it so terrible of *me*, but apparently acceptable for them to express an opinion 
that's no more approving but in many cases, is less-informative about WHY, than mine?

I explain what i see as clearly as i can - is that why my negative opinion is so unwelcome?
Off the cuff is OK, but detailed critiques are a no-no?
.
.


----------



## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Difference is they are not rude, they are also pet people who lack knowledge and are willing to listen to others, you however are self opinionated, pretend to know about the GSD when it is evident that you know even less than those you have just quoted


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> And then there's these...
> 
> Who asked THEM to opine?
> 
> ...


People expressed an opinion, they didn't go in to detail about every little detail they didn't like about the dogs, they voiced an opinion, they weren't rude.

So again we all have our preference stated mine over and over again in this post, also stated what I didn't like but I don't believe once I have slagged anyone's dog off.......... Or given an unqualified critique on that dog.. Why because I think it's rude...... Might not like the look of a dog, or like it's movement, but I'm certainly not going to write list of what I dislike....

Like I said I find it rude....... The owner didn't ask you to critique the dog, you might see pictures put on line as "fair game" I personally would not be so disrespectful about someone's dog... I wouldn't like it done to me, so I wouldn't do it to someone else................ FYI your quotes are taken out of context, because if I remember rightly I don't think anyone agreed that was was written about the dogs was perfectly okay, but I don't have time to find all the responses to the posts you quoted....


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> People expressed an opinion, they didn't go in to detail about every little detail they didn't like
> about the dogs, they voiced an opinion, they weren't rude.


Ah! ... So "grotesque" & "disgusting" are polite, but stating WHY is rude. 
Never mind.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Ah! ... So "grotesque" & "disgusting" are polite, but stating WHY is rude.
> Never mind.


So again, I don't have time to go through the whole thread BUT I don't think ANYONE agreed with those comments OR let them go without commenting on them............

I think Critiquing someones dogs is rude yes, I also don't think it's particularly nice to post pictures of other peoples dogs to get a response on them..

Saw it not to long ago, someone trying to solicit responses from people about a video of a show, all because of a grudge going on outside this forum....

While Dan of course didn't have an ulterior motive it can be used to those means so again personally I don't like, again I would be very offended if someone lifted a picture of my dog and then people decided to critique it, again I showed a picture of the US line GSD NO WHERE did I ask for a critique of that dog, didn't even ask what people though, but you chose to give a full detailed critique, I know the owner would be upset to read that, I didn't post it asking for an opinion, it was posted to show the difference in the two show lines... So yes I find that rude.........


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I have an unqualified question that someone might be able to answer. The dog in the photo above in LFLs post has a definite angle in his back, whereas Meezey's dog looked like they had a straight back in the same stance. Personally, I much preferred Meezey's dog in that respect regarding conformation. Maybe they're a future winner, I don't know. Why would the former be considered better than Meezey's dog in that respect? Thanks.


----------



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I will not apologise for saying I was disgusted about the dogs in that video I originally posted on #1. 

I have admired GSD's for years, I've looked at breeders websites as they are a breed I really want to own in the future... when I typed in GSD showing on youtube, that vid came up and I was disgusted and extremely disappointed about the way those dogs in that video were walking and it is *disgusting* to see dogs struggling to walk because of the way they are bred. I assumed wrongly that this is how all show GSD's looked (I've heard rumours before, people proud of having staight backs rather than show etc...), after all, on websites, the dogs are still, there's no videos to see movement. HOWEVER, I was wrong, and people here pointed out that the video in question on #1 is an extremely small minority. Take Elmo for example that someone posted, nice looking dog, great health tests and overall not exaggerated too much - he won BOB - a nice example of the breed and a deserved winner in my opinion.

I will however, apologise for assuming all show GSD's looked like this, it was very narrow minded... I guess I was taken in by that video like most other people who have viewed that video with little knowledge on the breed.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I've just found this video
> 
> Crufts 2013 German Shepherd Dog Best of Breed - Ch Elmo Vom Huhnegrab - YouTube
> 
> See, he doesn't look exaggerated to me.





dandogman said:


> I will not apologise for saying I was disgusted [by] the dogs in that video [in the OP].
> 
> I've admired GSDs for years, I've looked at breeders' websites as they're a breed I really want to own
> in the future; when I typed in "GSD showing" on youtube, that vid came up and I was disgusted & extremely
> ...


i just watched this clip twice, i missed it the first time i read the thread - & IMO he's not much of 
an improvement. :nonod: The bitch is less exaggerated than the dog, but nonetheless, neither is 
a level-backed dog. It's merely a matter of more drop from shoulder to croup on the dog, & a bit less 
of an angle on the bitch. However, there's no way that either is level-backed, & *both* have short hocks, 
long thighs, etc.

Some brief examples:
At *2:11*, Elmo: still-shot from moving:








13-secs into the clip - Dog in front, bitch behind, both standing:








17-secs in, both dogs moving off, the F tries to lunge across her handler's path of travel - 







Look what happens to her lower rear-legs, she looks like a kangaroo: both paw-to-hock distances are 
nearly flat to the floor. Meanwhile, both of Elmo's hocks are trending inward, & U can distinctly see the drop 
of approx 5 to 6-inches from his withers to his tailset, despite his being on 3 paws - a very stable moment.

These are all screenshots, taken by pausing the video.

Elmo from behind, at 20-secs:







Where are his hocks? Angled inward. His rear paws? Angled outward. His croup clearly falls considerably 
from his withers; again, he's on THREE paws: right-rear, left fore, & his right fore is just about to lift. 
He's not unsupported in back - that right-rear is at full vertical extension, it's a very stable moment 
in his gait, or it should be. :nonod:

23-secs:
his right-rear is about to over-reach his right fore. Hocks are inward, his right rear is up & paw crosses 
under his own midline, his left-rear paw is down & the leg is as upright as it gets - he's pushing off it.







Where's his tailset? Where are his shoulders, in relation to that? Draw a straight line, level with the base
of the photo, from his tailset forward - how low does that horizontal intersect the vertical of his withers?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> i just watched this clip twice, i missed it the first time i read the thread - & IMO he's not much of
> an improvement. :nonod: The bitch is less exaggerated than the dog, but nonetheless, neither is
> a level-backed dog. It's merely a matter of more drop from shoulder to croup on the dog, & a bit less
> of an angle on the bitch. However, there's no way that either is level-backed, & *both* have short hocks,
> ...


So what are YOU doing to produce this most wonderful GSD?????????


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

So this is my last post on this, because I can't really struggle with people who just complain and rip things to piece for no other reason than they can, but while being so vocal about what's wrong with things do nothing about it, this isn't just directed at dogs or GSD's it's life in general, but in relation to a certain person in this thread, if your so passionate about it, and so disgusted with it all do something about it, instead of seating behind your keyboard ripping other peoples dogs to bits...............

Final words well known quote for you:

*If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

45-secs, Xoe seen from her left side, still-shot while moving:







Her left rear paw is about to over-reach her left fore, her right rear is fully extended behind, 
her left-fore has thrust back as far as it reaches so that shoulder has DROPPED - but where is her tailset 
in relation to her shoulders?
Her right rear paw has pushed off, her left-rear is reaching forward, all 4 paws are momentarily off the floor - 
she shouldn't be "tipped" down from front to back, but she is. Why?

46-secs:
POV approx the forward point of her left shoulder; her right-rear paw is forging past her right-fore, on the inside - 







she's rotating her right-fore outward to get it out of her own way, her left-rear paw is fully-vertically extended, 
what's her spine look like? A hump. It extends from her withers to her pelvis.

47-secs:
Xoe stepping forward, Elmo standing pat.







Where are their hocks?
Where is Xoe's right-rear paw? Nearly at her midline, despite her moving very slowly; she's just *begun*
to walk, from a standing pose.
Where's her croup? Where are her shoulders in relation to that?

Elmo's rear paws are very-nearly perfectly parallel - but the slant from withers to croup is obvious.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There we go, less than flattering photos of my girl, she hasn't got 100% the best conformation in the world, but there are certain aspects that are strong. Granted a couple of weaknesses, but hey, show me a perfect dog, and it's easy enough to pick up on a photo that shows what could be imperfections. I've got just as many photos that make her look good!!


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Sorry S_L but the worst photo you have still looks perfectly normal to me. Just a dog posed - slightly awkwardly - but still balanced.

NOTHING will persuade me that a dog - with it's leg flat to the ground from paw to hock - during ordinary movement is either normal or desirable, nor that the amount of medio-lateral instability that they show at the rear is a Good Thing.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There we go, less than flattering photos of my girl... [SNIP]
> 
> it's easy enough to [find] a photo that shows what could be imperfections.
> I've got just as many photos that make her look good!!


S-L, 
neither Elmo nor Xoe are balancing on a log, or out of kilter with legs akimbo; they're not tripping, slipping, 
photographed from a severe angle from above, foreshortened, or otherwise at a visual disadvantage.

I didn't waste time trying to "find bad photos" - i took screenshots, uploaded, wrote captions, re-started the clip.

here's a list of the photos, as they were TAKEN - stop the clip, take the shot, then upload it, & re-start the video: 
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 4.01.27 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 4.13.44 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 4.19.21 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 4.28.35 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 4.33.32 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 4.50.44 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 4.57.28 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 5.04.44 PM
Screen shot 2013-09-04 at 5.05.46 PM

The posts went up at 4:46 & 5:11, respectively. I had to run & re-run some sections, trying to get past 
that stoopid red-cube, the judge's movements, other ppl in the shot occluding the dog, & so on. The clip was not
shot under ideal conditions, & getting a decent window to see the dogs isn't easy.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2013)

Oh dear, the poor thing looks so hunched while it walks. I shall never understand the attraction.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> S-L,
> neither Elmo nor Xoe are balancing on a log, or out of kilter with legs akimbo; they're not tripping, slipping,
> photographed from a severe angle from above, foreshortened, or otherwise at a visual disadvantage.
> 
> ...




But isn't it just as subjective? You're commenting on footage posted online, it *might* be correct, but then at ring craft, I've seen dogs throw all sorts of paces and moves, one particular weimerarner who loves to gait for his owner but is brilliant for everyone else.

It doesn't matter what time posts went up, what matters is that you see a clip and are extremely judgemental about it, and ok, that's your perogative, but then you will get people telling you they feel you are being extremely judgemental 

I don't particularly like some of the examples of show bred GSD's highlighted on this thread, but then I've never met them. I have met show bred GSD's however, and thought how bl**dy lovely they are, and how unlike the representation they've been given by PDE and the like.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

It's 5:50 local time; 
i'm going to find some Malinois in the ring, & take some comparable stills of 2 dogs - 1 M, 1 F - 
for comparison purposes.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> 45-secs, Xoe seen from her left side, still-shot while moving:
> View attachment 122490
> 
> Her left rear paw is about to over-reach her left fore, her right rear is fully extended behind,
> ...


Chuff! If I posted a video of Rhuna being shown when she's in the mood to throw a few moves on the dance floor, you'd accuse me of out crossing to John Travolta!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ... I've met show-bred GSDs... & thought how bl**dy lovely they are, and how unlike the representation
> they've been given by PDE and the like.


i've met plenty of show-bred GSDs belonging to clients, & they may have been sweet dogs, but structurally, 
they are only comparative gradations of "disaster". They may be incredibly awful, or only mostly-awful, 
but they have all been awful, to one degree or another. :nonod:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> I have an unqualified question that someone might be able to answer. The dog in the photo above in LFLs post has a definite angle in his back, whereas Meezey's dog looked like they had a straight back in the same stance. Personally, I much preferred Meezey's dog in that respect regarding conformation. Maybe they're a future winner, I don't know. Why would the former be considered better than Meezey's dog in that respect? Thanks.


I was hoping for an answer


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

But then we're a continent apart, and the difference between Labradors is phenomenal as well. I have an online friend who breeds Labs that I frankly find offensive, they are so heavy, but they are their idea of perfect, and are what is deemed as *right* for your show ring.

Edited to add, I would never say your Lab's are [email protected], and wrong, and my Labs are better than yours. We all believe in different things and somewhere, hopefully some of us create a happy medium.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> I was hoping for an answer


Which photo are you referring to the 'Alsatian' type?


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Vislor said:


> I know its because a lot of people aren't used to seeing dogs give total attention in obedience,


I don't think that your dog has a sloping back, but the sable dog in the video does move strangely. And it's not just because he's giving total attention. If you look at this video FCI IPO 2010 Peter Scherk (B) Germany the dog moves properly even if he gives total attention. And so doe the Mali in your video and they are just as attentive as the sable GSD.

I just don't understand why you'd want your dog to squat like the sable dog and your dog named Bulmer (who seems to have a Swedish father ) does. It has nothing to do with straight backs or not and I don't think it's unhealthy, it just doesn't seem natural. And that's not because I'm not used to seeing dogs give total attention in obedience, because I do competitive obedience and compete in tracking myself.

I know a lot of German Shepherds from working lines and though they have straight backs and perfect hip scores, they don't have the same healthy build and movement as for example Malis does.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok, I've had an ongoing argument about the *stand* for Labs, because they are free standing, but when you show a Labrador, or any retriever, they are expected to stand four square with the rear legs extended so the top line is level and the knee joint, or stifle, is at it's *optimal* appearance. 

It is so easy to look at online photos or videos and judge appearances when actually, the dog looks very different in the flesh.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

This comes up as the SECOND clip, if U search UTube using "show malinois".

These are all of dog #1; the beginning is in deep shade on a bright day, U can't see squat till the dog 
is out in the sunlight.  Be patient.

Ocala Dog Show 11/15/09 - Malinois - BOB competition - YouTube

22-secs:








25-secs - 
halting & preparing to turn RIGHT [toward camera]








return -

26 secs:








44-secs:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

But what does it prove? The only thing it proves is you've watched a video clip of this dog, and made some judgement about it, with some comments, and some people may or may not agree with you.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wildmoor said:


> Which photo are you referring to the 'Alsatian' type?


Never mentioned Alsatian type or have seen one on this thread. My question was regarding two German dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But what does it prove?
> 
> [That] you've watched a video clip of this dog, and made some judgement about it, *with some comments*,
> and some people may or may not agree with you.


i made zero comments on the Maligator. I simply took screenshots & posted them, ASAP.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There we go, less than flattering photos of my girl, she hasn't got 100% the best conformation in the world, but there are certain aspects that are strong. Granted a couple of weaknesses, but hey, show me a perfect dog, and it's easy enough to pick up on a photo that shows what could be imperfections. I've got just as many photos that make her look good!!


Well I'll tell you one problem with her, she keeps changing colour


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i made zero comments on the Maligator. I simply took screenshots & posted them, ASAP.


No, you haven't made personal comments but...



leashedForLife said:


> This comes up as the SECOND clip, if U search UTube using "show malinois".
> 
> These are all of dog #1; the beginning is in deep shade on a bright day, U can't see squat till the dog
> is out in the sunlight.  Be patient.
> ...


you have posted where you think people *should* look, for whatever reason.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Well I'll tell you one problem with her, she keeps changing colour


Oh gawd, I can't begin to recall the amount of times I've been told she's the wrong shade of chocolate!!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oh gawd, I can't begin to recall the amount of times I've been told she's the wrong shade of chocolate!!


Florence has Tau's sort of shade on her thighs now; it is got really noticeable this summer. Think it's a lovely shade myself


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Never mentioned Alsatian type or have seen one on this thread. My question was regarding two German dogs.


Meezey posted a picture of one

Which 2 German dogs there are a few different ones on here: Idol, Cowboy, Elmo, or the ones in the original video post by Dandogman 2 of which are the same 8yr old dog


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Well, I'll tell you one problem with her --- she keeps changing colour.


at least she didn't change sex. 

A former boss of mine had a chocolate female [whom he did not feed sufficiently, & kept kenneled 
in an outdoor run WITH a hefty cream-coated Brit flab-Lab, a massive male who weighed 110# in good flesh.
At one point, she weighed THIRTY-FIVE POUNDS - when *he* was "feeding" her. 
i complained to the local vet, who'd seen her at 50# when i brought her in for a check-up after 2-years 
with ZERO visits - previously, i'd been feeding her myself, with food i bought with my own money].

She was a deep cooked-liver or semi-sweet chocolate color, with an otter tail & cobby, hound-type body - 
compact, slightly chesty, well-proportioned. Her eyes were deep hazel.

One day, i had a male chocolate in the office with me; he was a p!ss-poor example, with a sabre tail, 
tall slab-sided body high on leg, a rump taller than his withers, & obvious testes. He was light brown, 
with pale shading over his shoulders & rump, waves of wiry semi-curls on his shoulders, & pale-lemon eyes.

My boss asked me why Cocoa was in the office?... 
[his name was Moose, & the man had never met the dog - who was 4-inches taller at the shoulder 
than his own bitch].  :lol:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wildmoor said:


> Meezey posted a picture of one
> 
> Which 2 German dogs there are a few different ones on here: Idol, Cowboy, Elmo, or the ones in the original video post by Dandogman 2 of which are the same 8yr old dog


I must of missed that, too many pages. If you like I can bring up a pointless list of names and pedigrees in my breed that you won't understand either.

The question I asked earlier was regarding why a roach backed dog which is mentioned in the gad standard as having should be heavily penalised is winning high honours and I'm very curious why he is.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wildmoor said:


> Meezey posted a picture of one
> 
> Which 2 German dogs there are a few different ones on here: Idol, Cowboy, Elmo, or the ones in the original video post by Dandogman 2 of which are the same 8yr old dog


..........................


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Snoringbear said:


> I was hoping for an answer


I don't know the answer to that question, and tbh different judges would choose one over the other while supposedly judging from the same standard? Huge separations in the breed with each "type" believing their interpretation of the breed standard is correct?

*smh* said I wasn't commenting on this thread again


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

So what do certain armchair experts make of my Breeze's conformation? She may be ugly but she is a happy, fit and healthy dog.









In my experience, the people who complain the loudest about the state of dog breeds are seldom are doing anything to improve them.



leashedForLife said:


> A modern Engl. Bulldog can no more walk WITHOUT "rolling" than s/he can breathe without snuffling -
> both due to altered body-structure, & not for the better of the breed, merely to satisfy human fancy.


I've seen some really excellent examples lately who stride without rolling, and pant without great exaggerated snorts. My ex's Bulldog was a very quiet breather and would enjoy a good hour's walk unless it was very hot. The Bulldog in my village is incredibly fit and I've barely seen him pant at all; he and his owner walk for miles and he doesn't "roll" while he does. My friend and neighbour used to show and breed Bullys; her girls all self-whelped. They're *not* all the cripples that people want you to believe!

Of course there are plenty that do suffer with their breathing and it is pitiful to see, and like the GSDs there are plenty that do not move well, but each breed has caring enthusiasts who are doing their utmost to improve their dogs and safeguard the breeds' futures. Must be so demoralising to be trying to do this while people tear you efforts apart!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thorne said:


> So what do certain armchair experts make of my Breeze's conformation? She may be ugly but she is a happy, fit and healthy dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm snorting in my morning cuppa, but that has to win the award for the *looks most awkward when stood still for a photo* award, if there is one!!

Nice length of leg!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Thorne said:


> I've seen some really excellent examples lately who stride without rolling, and pant without great exaggerated snorts. My ex's Bulldog was a very quiet breather and would enjoy a good hour's walk unless it was very hot. The Bulldog in my village is incredibly fit and I've barely seen him pant at all; he and his owner walk for miles and he doesn't "roll" while he does. My friend and neighbour used to show and breed Bullys; her girls all self-whelped. They're *not* all the cripples that people want you to believe!


Absolutely, me too. I saw a gorgeous bulldog the other day, and I am someone who aesthetically is not instantly drawn to Bulldogs (although did consider them as my first breed due mainly to their fantastic character), but this bulldog really was good looking! There was no rolling, and I could not hear her breathing, she was not over weight, and she ran about with no difficulties at all - yet still looked like a bulldog (albeit not at the extreme exaggerated end of the scale). This is the sort of dog that the best bulldog breeders are breeding towards, and are becoming more and more common.

The best Bulldog breeders are breeding dogs that self whelp, run like the wind, and live into double figures. Yet people still say things like 'we should stop breeding bulldogs'


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i disagree.
> 
> i don't have to get my hands on a dog to see stenotic nares, rolls or slabs of fat, bad structure, or other
> visible faults.
> ...


You can only see what the photographer has recorded. What you see in pics/vids can be distorted by light, camera angle, and the expertise or non-expertise of the photographer. You can't see what is going on in the background, what is distracting, annoying or worrying the dog - all of which will interfere with its gait and make its conformation look skewed.

No-one who knows anythng at all about dogs would ever advocate giving a critique of a dog's conformation without a hands-on assessment.



Cleo38 said:


> I agree with you although, tbh if I had dogs as amazing as was shown in those clips, I wouldn't give sh*t what people on a pet forum said


Spot on, Cleo. When you have dogs who are the top in their field (and who will perforce have had the approval of the top people qualified to critique them), then the opinions of a forum "know-it-all" who actually knows very little means absolutely zilch.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> It is so easy to look at online photos or videos and judge appearances when actually, the dog looks very different in the flesh.


Spot on!


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm snorting in my morning cuppa, but that has to win the award for the *looks most awkward when stood still for a photo* award, if there is one!!
> 
> Nice length of leg!


Bless her, she is all wrong! But what you can't see in the photo is that she is sound, active and moves an awful lot better than it looks like she would. Obviously I'm not condoning breeding badly put-together dogs, but there is more to every dog than what a lone photo can tell you.
Breeze is a good poster child for "Dogs that should never ever be bred from" and I'd love to see her what her parents looked like. Would be interested to see what her numerous offspring look like too


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Thorne said:


> So what do certain armchair experts make of my Breeze's conformation? She may be ugly but she is a happy, fit and healthy dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think she's a beauty... yellow labs will always have a special place in my heart


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Vicki said:


> I don't think that your dog has a sloping back, but the sable dog in the video does move strangely.
> And it's not just because he's giving total attention.
> 
> If you look at this video FCI IPO 2010 Peter Scherk (B) Germany
> the dog moves properly even if he gives total attention.


Thanks so much for posting the video-link - I really enjoyed it, wonderful movement 
& excellent performance, too. :yesnod:


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