# open stud contract



## tina clarke (Jan 23, 2009)

Hi need some help.Im a new bengal breeder this year.We are getting another stud boy soon,and have decided for a while to open stud our male boy b4 retireing him,the problem is i cant seem to find any open stud contract for which the queens owner would sign,ive looked on the internet!!can you help.Thank you Tina.x


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

My birman girl goes to open studs - there is no contract for this - we go, pay the fee and come away again. You would only need a contract if you were going to put restrictions on the kittens (i.e none to be sold on active etc.). Why don't you have a go at making up your own?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

If you want it to be legally binding you should consult a solicitor for the correct wording if you wish to be able to enforce it. As far as I am aware the GCCF will not enforce any restrictions you place on a mating. Not sure what other registries do.

Any restrictions placed should be there to protect the overall gene pool.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Blimey, are you happy with that contract then?

I am the opposite extreme (though it has been years since anyone has wanted to use my studs, if my Burmese boy ever works out what to do with girls it might be another matter of course). No restrictions, come back as many times as you need to, and I don't insist on blood tests (no point, they're not worth the paper they're written on!)

Liz


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

That's pretty restrictive though - depends what OP means by Open studding their boy ie whether they intend there to be restrictions or not.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Soupie said:


> That's pretty restrictive though.


Unenforceable too, though of course if you signed it and then broke it you would be unpopular with the stud owner and all her friends.

Liz


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## Alansw8 (May 25, 2008)

I looked at getting my own stud but the breeder said i could only use him on my girls so i said thanks but no thanks.

I know at times people like to put restrictions in place to protect their stud so the only way they can is by making him closed stud.

People have to remember we all start off somewhere and build relationships up with other breeders but at times its very difficult so i tend to steer clear of them with the restrictions.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

good grief!!


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

but typical of Burmese studs, unfortunately. This is the main reason why the breed is so seriously inbred - if something isn't done soon, major damage will result


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Indeed, but what happens when you try to tell them that? (Rhetorical question, we both know the answer!)

Liz


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

I guess every breed is different. With Mau's for instance it's standard to ban putting male progeny on the active though I'm yet to see one with any restriction on female kittens and that's mostly because right now no stud in the country is related to any other stud, they essentially force anyone wanting a stud to import one. Good for the gene pool, a right bastard for those wanting to do it. Lucky for us there's a fair handful of brave souls prepared to do it! Makes the stud fees a ballache though - £450 pretty standard


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't have a contract.

All I ask is that vaccinations are up to date and the female is in good health and registered with a governing body.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

The reason for the blood test would be to make sure that they're the same blood group.


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

Every Mau stud I've contacted demands within-24-hour snap tests for flu and FIV, plus your vaccination cert to say she couldn't have them anyway :shocked: :skep: :


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

xxSaffronxx said:


> Someone told me a few weeks ago that you dont need a blood test if you cat is vaccinated for Leukaemia  does anyone know if thats right? Apparently you just show the certificate of vaccination?


It entirely depends on the stud owner. One common practice is (or at least was) that if the cat tested negative before vaccination, that certificate plus the vaccination certificate would suffice. The FeLV vaccine (unlike, for example, the flu and chlamtydia vaccines) is very effective and the chances of a vaccinated stud catching it from a visitng queen are very low. The chances are even lower if the queen is negative and vaccinated and can be reduced to effectively zero if matings are controlled. As for FIV, there is not one single recorded case of that being spread by sexual contact, the queen would have to bite the stud to give it to him, and first she has to catch it herself. O yes, and the incubation period is a lot longer than 24 hours and the vet test is only 90% reliable anyway.

Liz


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## tina clarke (Jan 23, 2009)

lizward said:


> Blimey, are you happy with that contract then?
> 
> I am the opposite extreme (though it has been years since anyone has wanted to use my studs, if my Burmese boy ever works out what to do with girls it might be another matter of course). No restrictions, come back as many times as you need to, and I don't insist on blood tests (no point, they're not worth the paper they're written on!)
> 
> Liz


How can you say hiv/filv blood test is not worth the paper its written on i dont understand,if an outside queen has got something,shell pass it on to all my queens! which i would have to spay!??


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## tina clarke (Jan 23, 2009)

tina clarke said:


> How can you say hiv/filv blood test is not worth the paper its written on i dont understand,if an outside queen has got something,shell pass it on to all my queens! which i would have to spay!??


Any ways back to the question in hand lol.thank you so much for all of you posting good comments.Im liking that contract allthough slightly heavy but will deff use some of it in my contract,i will have no restrictions on the kittens and hope to keep one for myself  new lines for next year with my new stud boy,who i wont be open studding him out lol.Once again thank you so much everyone.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

tina clarke said:


> How can you say hiv/filv blood test is not worth the paper its written on i dont understand,if an outside queen has got something,shell pass it on to all my queens! which i would have to spay!??


Aren't all cats vaccinated against this?


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## tina clarke (Jan 23, 2009)

Elmstar said:


> The reason for the blood test would be to make sure that they're the same blood group.


Just had a look a your beautiful bengals.x


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

tina clarke said:


> How can you say hiv/filv blood test is not worth the paper its written on i dont understand,if an outside queen has got something,shell pass it on to all my queens! which i would have to spay!??


how do you know the paper work you are given is for the cat coming into stud?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

tina clarke said:


> How can you say hiv/filv blood test is not worth the paper its written on i dont understand,if an outside queen has got something,shell pass it on to all my queens! which i would have to spay!??



Because a newly infected animal will still show as negative on a test - or so I understand.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tina clarke said:


> How can you say hiv/filv blood test is not worth the paper its written on i dont understand,if an outside queen has got something,shell pass it on to all my queens! which i would have to spay!??


Because it is only 90% accurate (that is, the one usually done at vets) and you have no way of knowing whether the queen is actually incubating the disease in question, if it is the test will be negative even though the queen is infectious!

There is not one known case of FIV being passed through sexual contact, it isn't going to happen unless she bites the boy, and they don't wait around long enough to be bitten. Plus she has to catch it herself first - by being bitten by an FIV positive cat.

And for FeLV there is a very effective vaccine, besides which the way that is spread (shared food dishes etc) is easy to avoid totally, just put the girl in with the stud for actual matings.

Obviously if you want to insist on a 24 hour test that is your right, you are in the majority and no-one is going to argue with you. Just don't imagine it gives your cats any more protection than getting them vaccinated against FeLV and using supervised matings, it doesn't!

Liz


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

xxSaffronxx said:


> well with mine, my vets write a letter to say the tests were negative and which cat it was, when it was carried out etc etc


but what i mean is how can you tell if a queen owner has the cat with them, who the tests are for. they could take a healthy cat to the vet but bring a different cat to stud. i know it's not likely but it could happen if you use a vet who is not familiar with who your cats are.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Vets letter means nothing nowadays. I know of a situation where a 'friend' of the stud owner bought in her cat together with a letter from her vet on headed paper, saying said cat had tested negative etc. Queen in question even had a shaved front leg!

The stud owner was slightly suspicious when queen and test results were handed over with a comment "you can check them if you like". It played on her mind after putting the queen in with the stud, and did check. The vet hadn't seen the queen. Stud owner phoned the queens owner who admitted she had made the headed paper on her PC, and hadn't taken the cat to the vet for a test at all, as she couldn't afford it. All the worry that followed testing her stud and worrying about him etc caused her to give up.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

xxSaffronxx said:


> hmmm yes i know what u mean - i guess if you had 2 queens the same colour it could happen if they look similar.


Very easily! Espscially if your vet has a system whereby any newer breeds simply go down as "other pedigree" and you have a newer breed. My vet would not know one Asian shorthair from another or from an Egyptian Mau I am sure.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Stud owner phoned the queens owner who admitted she had made the headed paper on her PC, and hadn't taken the cat to the vet for a test at all, as she couldn't afford it. All the worry that followed testing her stud and worrying about him etc caused her to give up.


Somehow I doubt if the queen's owner lasted very long either!

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

A decent while after that, but did eventually give up, but for other reasons.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I think i've got past the stage of being shocked about anything in the cat fancy!!

I do ask for a FeLV/FIV test from visiting queens and my boy is tested himself, however I'm not obsessive about it and I don't expect the queen to be tested within 24 hours of coming to stud, within 2 weeks or so is fine with me if she is an indoor cat. If it's someone I know, and have visited etc then I probably wouldn't worry about the test.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Yes - it takes about 21 days after infection for a FeLV blood test to show positive.



Saikou said:


> Because a newly infected animal will still show as negative on a test - or so I understand.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Same here.


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## tina clarke (Jan 23, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> how do you know the paper work you are given is for the cat coming into stud?


Lol you check the paper work if your not sure you can fone tica or gccf


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## tina clarke (Jan 23, 2009)

lizward said:


> Because it is only 90% accurate (that is, the one usually done at vets) and you have no way of knowing whether the queen is actually incubating the disease in question, if it is the test will be negative even though the queen is infectious!
> 
> There is not one known case of FIV being passed through sexual contact, it isn't going to happen unless she bites the boy, and they don't wait around long enough to be bitten. Plus she has to catch it herself first - by being bitten by an FIV positive cat.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that liz.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi,

I have read this thread with great interest. Over here all female kittens sold have a Fiv/felv test before they go to their new homes and the results are logged in their vaccination records.

Whether they are still required to have a test before going to stud I do not know as I haven't enquired about that yet! I imagine so as if they are going to live with other cats and come into contact with other cats then I feel it is necessary even if they have the FELV vaccination.

Izzie


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

tina clarke said:


> Lol you check the paper work if your not sure you can fone tica or gccf


They wouldn't be able to tell you that the paper work you had corresponded to cat in front of you  just that the paper work was correct for the cat named on it.

I have 2 black orientals, Mother and Daughter, I could quite easily give you Mums paperwork and present Daughter with that, you would be none the wiser. There's no requirement to chip and that would also mean you would have to purchase a chip reader to make sure.

From what I can see, there are no guarantees, its all done on trust.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

tina clarke said:


> Lol you check the paper work if your not sure you can fone tica or gccf


Sorry I don't mean than. I mean the person could bring another cat instead, pretending to be the cat the paper work and snap test results refer to.


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## tina clarke (Jan 23, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> Sorry I don't mean than. I mean the person could bring another cat instead, pretending to be the cat the paper work and snap test results refer to.


I see what you mean,and its quite worrying so maybe it is all done on trust and only letting your stud out to breeders you no and trust.Its a shame i never thought people could be so untrustworthy!!I guess now thats why a lot of breeders have closed stud!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think you also have to consider whether the original breeder of your boy is happy about him being put to public stud, many aren't.

You also need to think what you are going to do if the queen cannot get pregnant how many repeat matings are you prepared to allow?
The breeder may blame your boy.
Can you keep a queen with your boy for weeks to allow repeat matings to occur and make sure the girl gets pregnant? 
What are you going to do -
If the queen has dead kittens?
If the queen has deformed kittens?
If the queen has only one kitten?
If the queen gets hurt during the mating or escapes and the owners want compensation?
If your boy gets hurt?

All these things are immaterial if you deal with decent people as you can sort it out amicably, but some will take advantage so you need to be prepared and be very clear as to where you and they stand before you start.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> You also need to think what you are going to do if the queen cannot get pregnant how many repeat matings are you prepared to allow?
> The breeder may blame your boy.
> Can you keep a queen with your boy for weeks to allow repeat matings to occur and make sure the girl gets pregnant?
> What are you going to do -
> ...


Interesting.

I've never been in this situation so what usually happens in these situations....assuming two reasonable people?

I would assume that it's just one of those things if it were me but what's the norm?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The queen escaping is the stuff of which nightmares are made  I have four pens, only one of which has a proper safety door. Any visiting queens will most certainly be in that pen. Assuming you have a safety door then really the only way the girl is likely to escape is if someone sets fire to the pen and she escapes through the burning wood but that is even more of a nightmare scenario 

As for the rest, the boy getting hurt I suppose is a risk you take, most of them are very quick to jump out of the way, it is most unlikely that a girl calling would really attack him other than just after mating. If she does, well, I guess you call the owner to come and pick her up, and get your boy to the vets and pay the bill and hope there is no permanent damage 

Regarding lack of kittens / dead kittens, personally I'd allow as many free returns as needed. So far I have only ever had three girls in, plus on one occasion the boy went to live with the girl for a few days because that was the easiest way of doing it. So far all have successfully produced kittens. Interestingly, of those four occasions, three were for my Chinny boy (alas dead years ago) who was the most appalling example of the breed (I bought him for Burmilla breeding so he was great for my purposes, but he looked like somethign from the 1930s) and two of those were actually for Chinny kittens, which says something perhaps about how very difficult it must be to find a chinny stud! I confess I'd love to have another Chinny boy one day but there is always the problem called "husband" 

Right at the moment my Basil (Burmese) has grown into a thug and I am having to steel myself for the inevitable, that he really will have to go in a pen. The trouble is of course that will mean he has even more pent up energy, I really was hoping to keep him in the house until the girls start calling in the Spring, but he has taken to jumping on two of the girls quite visciously for no apparent reason, they're not calling. I love him to pieces and he is so lovely when he is in cuddly mode, I just wish he'd stop bullying the girls - it might also help him to stop getting chunks taken out of him and missing shows as a result 

Liz


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

tina clarke said:


> I see what you mean,and its quite worrying so maybe it is all done on trust and only letting your stud out to breeders you no and trust.Its a shame i never thought people could be so untrustworthy!!I guess now thats why a lot of breeders have closed stud!


Yeah I think just using him with breeders you know very well is the safest way


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

I believe the 'standard' is one free return (with the girl's owner paying a nominal amount for the extra board) in the event of one or no live kitten being born. And the stud owners I've spoken go on a 'if she hurts him that's my problem, if he hurt her that's yours' sorta basis.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> The breeder may blame your boy.


But then if you get a litter of stunners, the stud owner takes credit on behalf of their boy  Poor Queen never gets a mention, so they have to take the rough with the smooth


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

I guess it's all pretty much common sense really for most things. 

The only really contentious point is if the Queen gets loose. I'm guessing if she doesn't return then maybe a suitable kitten as replacement?

Has anyone experienced this?

I know when I got one of my girls the man I got her from had a Queen visiting one of his studs and she got loose but I never found out what happened with that.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

No it certainly shouldn't happen. Then again, IMO anyone who does not microchip their cats is taking a risk, you can always think they won't escape but it only takes a moment, one mistake - one of my kittens jumped out of the first floor bathroom window in the summer, aged 13 weeks. How much more do you need to take precautions of you are taking your cat somewhere strange to stud?

As a practical answer to the question though, a queen in full call ought to be easy enough to catch, she'll pose outside the stud house and all you have to do is pick her up - unless she is terribly nervous. You just have to hope the local moggy doesn't catch her before you do otherwise you would have some serious explaining to do 

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Its all part of the problem of finding a suitable stud. They not only have to have the right ped, have a great temperament etc, but also owned by someone you would trust and kept in appropriate conditions. I think its a huge responsibility taking care of other peoples queens and it shouldn't be taken lightly.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes - and they have to actually have their stud on open stud too. Apparently with some breeds it's really difficult, to the extent that the norm for Persians seems to be to buy in one of each sex if you want to breed. That seems very odd to those of us with shorter haired and less laid-back cats, doesn't it!

Liz


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I think the possibilty of it being the boy's fault if a queen fails to get pregnant is almost zero. It is almost always due to some sort of infection in the queen. Of course many queen owners won't know this 



Saikou said:


> But then if you get a litter of stunners, the stud owner takes credit on behalf of their boy  Poor Queen never gets a mention, so they have to take the rough with the smooth


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