# Overcrowded tank!



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Well folks I`ve decied to put a few fish in my tank. All coldwater. The tank has been sitting running for about 4-5 weeks and yesterday I bought a few orfe. I want to grow them on then, build from scratch, a new pond in the spring. So I bought a few orfe yesterday, they settled nicely and so I bought a few more today! Yes far too many, far too fast!

Well the tank is filtered by a hefty Eheim 2078 (I think) which is quite a beast and today I`ve put a fat 2" round airstone in there too. The fish are looking good and yesterdays fish took a little food this morning. Actually they were quite hungry!

I do have another cannister filter the same, another Eheim 2078 so I might even connect that up too, to give really good filtration. But for now, the fish are looking great and I`m going to be so careful not to overfeed! I`ve got 17 orfe and 4 golden tench all between 2" and 4", mostly 2-3 inches but 4 golden tench at 4" and one 4" orfe.

I think I`m going to have my work cut out with the water changes! Once I get another tank running though I `m going to spread them out a bit, so they have more space.

The orfe are loving the water movement and I`m hoping they will grow nicely until I get a bigger tank. I do want them to go outside in the spring though, as soon as I can get a decent sized pond built!

Update: just given them a feed and they are all feeding eagerly from the surface. An encouraging sign!

Now i want them to beef up, to grow and put on weight. What would be the best food for this? Is there a tiny pellet food that will do this? I was thinking of bloodworm but is this good for orfe? How about a little finely grated beef heart? Obviously just a very small amount.

Update 2... Changed 20% of the water last night. Topped it back up with tap water, just one small jug at a time.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Has anyone tried these things?

Evolution Aqua Ltd PURE Aquarium

Someone told me about these today. Do they work? Might be just what I need!

Update 3, well I`ve fitted my other big Eheim up to the tank now so its got two big external filters. One with spray bar and one sending a surface jet along the length of the tank. Fish are looking good and feeding well.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Sussexplumber said:


> Has anyone tried these things?
> 
> Evolution Aqua Ltd PURE Aquarium
> 
> ...


Ok I think I`ve got white spot starting! Help!! Ive seen a couple of the orfe flicking against the tank floor. Hope I`m wrong but I`m going to have to treat for it now! Otherwise all looking good!

Is there a preferred medicine for white spot now? Which is the best?


----------



## Guest (Nov 30, 2012)

I've always been told orfs grow too big for tanks. if you suspect White spot I've lost fish to that. My 3 fantails all got it and died in one go a few years back. I tried White spot medication can't remember what it's called, will dig the medicine I got after that had gone out of date wnd let you know if I find it. I'd advise you to separate the fish with it as it is contagious. Do they have tiny White spots on them.


----------



## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

I use API White Spot in my tank, its always done the job. 

You need to take any carbon out of the filters if you have any in them, as it will take the treatment out of the water.

Due to the life cycle of the parasite, the whole tank must be treated, in order to kill the parasites which are not attached to fish. Therefore it is not appropriate to treat only the affected fish in a separate isolation tank.


----------



## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm a marine person, not FW....so my advice could be totally wrong.

Ich is a parasite, which is why they are flicking. With SW fish, the recommended treatment is a FW dip and isolation. I believe that the opposite is true and that you can try a SW dip for FW fish - the osmotic pressure causes the parasites to burst as they are unable to handle the change in salinity. The difference with Ich, is that it is only obvious once the parasite has started burrowing into the skin so a SW dip might not always be effective.

Ich is one of those things that is really hard to get rid of. I had a recurring outbreak in one of my seahorse tanks in the earlier part of the year.....thankfully the seahorses weren't effected. We did have to treat our tank rather aggressively and so far have not had a recurrence.

There are treatments specifically for Ich, and I believe most contain copper. However, before you do anything, please wait for someone else to confirm.

What I would suggest is moving the fish to a hospital tank for treatment. When using any treatment make sure that you have additional aeration as many do deplete the tank of oxygen.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

You need to be careful with anything containing copper when treating orfe
Have you checked water quality? Fishkeeping is more about looking after water than looking after fish


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

hawksport said:


> You need to be careful with anything containing copper when treating orfe
> Have you checked water quality? Fishkeeping is more about looking after water than looking after fish


Its whitespot bruv, this isnt about water quality. As you know from reading above posts, ive got two eheim 2078 filters and now, _two_ 2" ball airstones. If my water quality was suspect, my delicate 2" baby orfe would be swimming belly up. And just to monitor the water quality, I have bought a new nitrite test kit this morning. Haven`t seen any spots on them yet, I`ve caught it early. Been out and bought some Protozin this morning, recommended by the staff at a very reputable place.  Ive also googled and apparently it is ok for orfe.


----------



## Guest (Nov 30, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> Its whitespot bruv, this isnt about water quality. As you know from reading above posts, ive got two eheim 2078 filters and now, _two_ 2" ball airstones. If my water quality was suspect, my delicate 2" baby orfe would be swimming belly up. And just to monitor the water quality, I have bought a new nitrite test kit this morning. Haven`t seen any spots on them yet, I`ve caught it early. Been out and bought some Protozin this morning, recommended by the staff at a very reputable place.  Ive also googled and apparently it is ok for orfe.


We know it's hire spot but think White spot can sometimes have a lot to do with water quality.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

danielled said:


> We know it's hire spot but think White spot can sometimes have a lot to do with water quality.


Well its a 240 litre tank, 48"x20"x15". I`ve rung Waterlife to check its suitable altho i do think its fine.


----------



## Guest (Nov 30, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> Well its a 240 litre tank, 48"x20"x15". I`ve rung Waterlife to check its suitable altho i do think its fine.


It's more to do with nitrates ph chlorine that sort of thing. I've got one medication I forgot I had that treats a few things I'll look at what it treats.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I agree with danielled, the whitespot parasites may be present in a healthy fish without affecting them, kept in check by the fish's immune system. When the immune system is weakened due to stress or poor water quality, the parasite can get the upper hand and then the spots will come out and the fish will get sick.

You should get an ammonia test kit as well as nitrite, unless you already have one 

I know you had the tank running for a few weeks before adding fish, but were you dosing with ammonia during this time to feed the filter bacteria?

Esha exit is supposed to be very good, medication-wise, but I know you've already bought a treatment. Whitespot is harder to treat in coldwater, though  Hope it works out for you!


----------



## Guest (Nov 30, 2012)

NaomiM said:


> I agree with danielled, the whitespot parasites may be present in a healthy fish without affecting them, kept in check by the fish's immune system. When the immune system is weakened due to stress or poor water quality, the parasite can get the upper hand and then the spots will come out and the fish will get sick.
> 
> You should get an ammonia test kit as well as nitrite, unless you already have one
> 
> ...


Yes ammonia sure as heck won't help.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> Its whitespot bruv, this isnt about water quality. As you know from reading above posts, ive got two eheim 2078 filters and now, _two_ 2" ball airstones. If my water quality was suspect, my delicate 2" baby orfe would be swimming belly up. And just to monitor the water quality, I have bought a new nitrite test kit this morning. Haven`t seen any spots on them yet, I`ve caught it early. Been out and bought some Protozin this morning, recommended by the staff at a very reputable place.  Ive also googled and apparently it is ok for orfe.


Unless you have a full set of test kits the first signs of a water quality problem are a fish's immune system being unable to fight off disease and parasites, belly up fish are the second sign. Given the high stocking rate, the speed they were added and the fact that you have been washing filter media in tap water anyone that knows anything about fish will tell you to check your water quality. Without the correct bacterial colonies 2 ehiem filters will do nothing for your tank
The clue is in the title and in your first post. 60 inches of fish into 220 litres of water in 2 days


----------



## Guest (Nov 30, 2012)

hawksport said:


> Unless you have a full set of test kits the first signs of a water quality problem are a fish's immune system being unable to fight off disease and parasites, belly up fish are the second sign. Given the high stocking rate, the speed they were added and the fact that you have been washing filter media in tap water anyone that knows anything about fish will tell you to check your water quality. Without the correct bacterial colonies 2 ehiem filters will do nothing for your tank
> The clue is in the title and in your first post. 60 inches of fish into 200litres of water in 2 days


Thank you, yes the clue is as you say in the title, overcrowded tank and opening post, I had noticed too.

Op when getting fish a tank can only hold so many fish.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

danielled said:


> Thank you, yes the clue is as you say in the title, overcrowded tank and opening post, I had noticed too.
> 
> Op when getting fish a tank can only hold so many fish.


Thanks for all those helpful replies! Yes they`ve had the first days dose of protozin. I`ve just fed them, grated beefheart. I want to build them up and they all have little pot bellies now! I`m glad they eat it and seem to like it too. 
I just don`t think flake is substantial enough to put meat on them and I think its going to be good to get them growing!

I bought a little ex display tank this morning, £10, just 18" but I`ve put a filter in it and I`m going to be using it for storing water for water changes. Just so the water used is the right temperature. 

Do orfe eat the same as goldfish? I know they will, but don`t they have a shorter digestive tract and faster digestion? I`m leaning towards a carnivorous diet because I think thats basically what they like. Goldfish are carp and browse on pondweed but orfe i think, are pretty much carnivores. Is that right?

I did a nitrite test earlier and unless I did it wrong, its all clear. Fish look ok but with them all digesting their dinner of beefheart, I think theyve got to be pushing it up.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Unless you have a full set of test kits the first signs of a water quality problem are a fish's immune system being unable to fight off disease and parasites, belly up fish are the second sign. Given the high stocking rate, the speed they were added and the fact that you have been washing filter media in tap water anyone that knows anything about fish will tell you to check your water quality. Without the correct bacterial colonies 2 ehiem filters will do nothing for your tank
> The clue is in the title and in your first post. 60 inches of fish into 220 litres of water in 2 days


Its not 220 litres and its not 200 litres either. Its 240 litres. With 2 power filters and two airstones. And so far (touch wood) they are doing well.  I have to say though that most people wouldn`t have got away with it! I imagine after their feed this evening the NH will have gone up significantly!


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> I did a nitrite test earlier and unless I did it wrong, its all clear. Fish look ok but with them all digesting their dinner of beefheart, I think theyve got to be pushing it up.


That's good, but you still ought to test ammonia as well, as that's the first thing that will show up if you do have any water quality issues.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sussexplumber said:


> Its not 220 litres and its not 200 litres either. Its 240 litres.


 48"x20"x15" = 14400 cubic inches that's if they measured on the inside. If it's measured on the outside the same as every tank I know allowing for 6mm glass brings it down to 13662 cubic inches. There are 1728 cubic inches to a cubic foot and 28.31 litres to a cubic foot

I'll do the maths for you

48x20x15=14400 cubic inches divided by 1728 = 8.33 cubic feet x 28.31 = 235.91 litres

That's if you fill it to the brim, every tank I've ever seen has been filled to just below the stress bars. If the depth is 15 inches losing 1 inch of that will lose you 960 cubic inches/ 0.55 cubic feet/ 15.72 litres

That leaves 220.19 litres

If the depth is 20 inches losing 1 inch of that will lose you 720 cubic inches/ 0.41 cubic feet/ 11.60 litres

That leaves 224.31 litres

Like I said though those two figures are if the tank was measured on the inside and no allowance has been made for any substrate or decoration.
Feel free to correct any of my calculations
I was designing, building and installing systems before the likes of Hockney and Mini Reef were available


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

hawksport said:


> 48"x20"x15" = 14400 cubic inches that's if they measured on the inside. If it's measured on the outside the same as every tank I know allowing for 6mm glass brings it down to 13662 cubic inches. There are 1728 cubic inches to a cubic foot and 28.31 litres to a cubic foot
> 
> I'll do the maths for you
> 
> ...


Thats impressive, but I was measuring to the water level. You`ve clearly got a lot of experience. The tank is actually bare, just a couple of pieces of plastic soil pipe for the tench to hide away in. And a dozen bundles of elodea.

Well a few more flicking this morning. Sure its WS starting! Anyway I`ve also changed a couple of buckets of water. I`ve overfed them and had a nitrite reading this morning. Some of them weren`t looking too happy. I should have known better. Light diet of flake from now on! They were looking better after changing 2 buckets of water though. I`ll test the water again tonight but I think its going to be 2 more buckets changed. The will be retreated tonight when I get home, its day two today. Im sure they developed it when I did the first big water change and the water was a tad cold for them. I was only refilling the tank slowly with a small jug though, not tipping it all in from a bucket.

Now the new water is standing and being bubbled through, before i use it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2012)

Mine eat fish sticks for pond fish but mine are in pond.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

danielled said:


> Mine eat fish sticks for pond fish but mine are in pond.


Half of them are very small u see, so maybe flake will see them through for a few weeks. Its a light diet anyway for the next month!


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> Half of them are very small u see, so maybe flake will see them through for a few weeks. Its a light diet anyway for the next month! I`ve overfed them and I know it.


Please try not to overfeeding them, it will most likely end in swim bladder decease.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

danielled said:


> Please try not to overfeeding them, it will most likely end in swim bladder decease.


I`ve never seen an orfe with a dead swim bladder, but it will kill them through pollution! I dont want to lose a single one.

Update.... Well I changed 10% of the water this morning after that nitrite reading.. The fish immediately looked happier. Got back from work and tested the water again, another reading, so changed 10% again and re-treated with Protozin. Fish are looking ok now and had a light feed of flake. Still some flicking from one or two fish. I really shouldnt have fed them beef heart twice in 12 hours!

Update... Nitrite was still high last nite after the water change so this morning Ive done another 10% water change and added a couple of mil more Protozin. Fish are all looking better and had a light feed. Light feeding from now on and when I get another tank, I`ll be splitting them, halving the stocking level.  Delighted not to have lost a single one so far, which I put down to the heavy aeration, frequent testing and water changes.

Sunday nite (2nd Dec) No nitrite in the evening, tested it twice to be sure. This morning (Monday 3rd), no nitrite.

I would like to thank Waterlife, who make Protozin, for their help and advice with treating the fish.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Ok theres a place in Sittingbourne that makes tanks to order and delivers, so I`m going to call them tomoz and see about getting a new tank made.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Sussexplumber said:


> Light feeding from now on and when I get another tank, I`ll be splitting them, halving the stocking level.


That should make a big difference to how happy and healthy your fish are


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> That should make a big difference to how happy and healthy your fish are


I`ve actually been looking on ebay today for tanks. I want a few but I also want to start digging a pond because I`ve got this week off. Havent decided yet on size, shape or location. But I think it`ll be a liner. It wants to be up the garden near the house, for ease of electric supply (to the pump), so they are easily viewed and for safety. Not sure whether to make it slightly raised, very raised or ground level.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> That should make a big difference to how happy and healthy your fish are


Yesterday I filled a 3` tank and set it up with air bubbling through it, for now just to be used as a reservoir for water changes. 

Got this week off work, so I`m sitting in the back lounge, watching the orfe swimming up and down, glinting silver and gold in the sun. It`s so relaxing! They had a small feed of grated beef heart this morning because I`m trying to grow them on. Half of them are small (around 2") and soooo delicate, but with clean water, good food and plenty of oxygen they will double in size by the spring.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> That should make a big difference to how happy and healthy your fish are


If you`ve ever kept baby orfe in a tank, you`ll know that if they arent happy, they`ll soon let you know about it! lol

Tuesday.... Problem with one of the tench... seen it convulse and float around. It really doesnt look right and has lost a lot of body colour. All the other fish seem fine so not sure what to do! If only there were people on here to offer advice! I dont think its going to survive the night but mystified as to what`s wrong. The other tench and the orfe all seem fine.

Wednesday... Well that tench has died. Seems to have a pinhead sized, red hole underneath, slightly back from the pectorals.... Going to get the body looked at today to see what happened. Fortunately I have an excellent Maidenhead Aquatics store very nearby. Dont get it though, the tank is being dosed with protozin so any nasties in the tank should have been killed. The orfe all look fine, had another feed of beef heart and eating well.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Sorry, didn't see your post yesterday. Sorry you lost a fish  Don't think I could really have helped anyway as I don't really know anything about tench. I know though that some fish, such as guppies, can literally split open if they overeat - could that be a possibility? Or is there anything sharp in your tank it could have injured itself on?


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> Sorry, didn't see your post yesterday. Sorry you lost a fish  Don't think I could really have helped anyway as I don't really know anything about tench. I know though that some fish, such as guppies, can literally split open if they overeat - could that be a possibility? Or is there anything sharp in your tank it could have injured itself on?


Really don`t know what happened... I took the fish to the place i bought it to show them, they couldn`t see anything wrong... They tested the water sample I took along and said it was all fine, a bit of nitrite but then they had a feed of beef heart this morning so that would be why. Really its a mystery. I got a few more orfe though and they are looking happy, all being part of the shoal. Still need to get a smaller 3` tank because I want to split them over 2 tanks, the big ones and the tinies! If there was a problem with the water, the orfe would be the first to show it. The tank is basically bare, just a ball of elodea floating around and some sections of soil pipe for the fish to hide in and now a couple of pieces of bogwood.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm not sure adding more fish is going to do your tank any favours...


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> I'm not sure adding more fish is going to do your tank any favours...


Yeah I know, but there are no water issues, excellent filtration and as I said I`m going to split the fish over two tanks. I only bought them because I was going back anyway to get them to test the water quality (all fine) and these were also on offer, just £1 each. Orfe are nothing if not shoaling fish and are happiest with lots of their buddies.

I don`t like to pass over a bargain like that! What I might do i in the spring when theyve grown on a bit, swap them at the local store for shubunkins or koi.... I kind of like the challenge of growing on the little orfe as they are quite fussy and a lot less hardy than most coldwater fish.

Update... have now started splitting them over two tanks... just three to start with but I want all the little ones in the 3` tank.

Well theyve run the course of Protozin and while I havent lost any (except the one tench), it hasnt knocked it on the head so on advice of the local shop experts, I`ve heated the tank (to speed up the parasite lifecycle) and im going for a re-treatment. These fish are starting to cost me!

Sunday morning update... Well bought more Protozin and re-treated last night, a slightly increased dosage. On the advice of the shop, I`ve also put heaters in, slowly bringing up the temperature to 80 F. They are pretty active atm and I think the biological filters have upped their game because I`m not getting any nitrite readings, despite feeding them well.

Hands up all those who are impressed I haven`t lost a single orfe! One individual fish is looking rather thin so I need to keep an eye on him but the rest are absolutely thriving! The shop "threw in" an emaciated 4" fish, free of charge and he`s started eating well, but in a separate tank, with three of the "babies" so he has less competition for food.


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Well theyve run their second course of Protozin, this time at 80F. No signs of ich now but just keeping an eye out. One of the tench had a touch of fin rot(?) underneath but two salt baths sorted that out and they all look absolutely fine now. 

The skinny 4" orfe appears to be gaining weight, very slowly. As his strength increases, he seems to be feeding better because he has the strength to chase around after the falling flake/pellets. I`ve upped the filtration to both 2078`s so they have some real water movement! 

I`ve turned the heaters off now and they are all back to coldwater again!

Still only lost that one tench 


Update....seen one of the blue orfe flicking this evening so the whitespot is STILL there! After 2 courses of treatment, including one week of heat treatment!


----------



## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Well they are undergoing the third WS treatment now. Not lost any, apart from that one tench. Fish are all looking good but I`m still hunting for another tank as there are too many in that tank.


----------

