# Cooper turned nasty



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Not been on here for a while, we got Cooper our DDB puppy a head collar a few weeks back to help control pulling and to get him used to a head collar incase he needs one as an adult. He doesn't really like having it on and will stop every now and again to try rub it off, he also is tricky to get the collar on but it's been do able up until today. We went shopping and when we returned Cooper ran out and sat in the car as we bought the shopping in. When we finished i sat in the car and tried to put Coopers head collar on ( I appreciate now it may have made him feel trapped or cornered) His lip turned up and he snapped at my hands, i attempted a couple of times to get the collar on and was repeatedly bitten (quite hard although only 22 weeks old he's roughly 60 pounds already and it wasn't play biting) I took him from the car and got some treats to try and make it a more pleasent experience but every time the collar came close to him he snarled and bit me. 

I appreciate he may not like the collar and we may have to look at other options but im concerned at how readily he will bite out. My old dog Redd WOULDN'T bite you, even if you deserved it, Cooper has been raised no differently and I appreciate he may be a more stubborn breed but i didn't expect this. Although a little edgey afterwards, he allowed me to get close to him "in his face" without the collar, but he's made it clear if i put that collar on him he WILL bite me  :scared:

Is this common if a dog has a dislike to something and "pushed into doing it" or....., as i have always suspected, is my dog an ARS*HO*E??


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

how old is he ?


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

How about just trying a slip lead into a figure of 8, loop one bit over the nose and the other bit behind the ears?

He might feel less restricted in it, or invasive putting it on.

Like this (sorry, you have to turn your head)


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

Have you just put the collar straight on him?
it really needs to be introduced, most dogs will not like a head collar at first 

with my girl its taken just over a week
first letting her sniff praise & treat
next steps pop it on her praise and treat then take it off again 
gradually increasing the time I leave it on her, each time lots of praise and a treat.
next step taking her for a little walk around the garden with it on lots of praise and treat again 
next out we go, by this time she is used to it, assossiates this horrible contraction with a treat so has no real objections. 

imagine how you would feel if suddenly someone shoved a head collar on you, especially so young you would be scared and not like it.

as for him biting this is a big nono but you should of took his warning and stopped and gave him a little time out to calm down, he shouldn't of got a treat after biting you, he needs to learn its not on, you wouldn't give a child some chocolate after they kicked or hit you. 

try re-introducing the collar to him a little more gradually take time, it might take over a week but will be well worth it, I know you need it now but patients is important so both you and puppy are happy and more importantly safe.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Not been on here for a while, we got Cooper our DDB puppy a head collar a few weeks back to help control pulling and to get him used to a head collar incase he needs one as an adult. He doesn't really like having it on and will stop every now and again to try rub it off, he also is tricky to get the collar on but it's been do able up until today. We went shopping and when we returned Cooper ran out and sat in the car as we bought the shopping in. When we finished i sat in the car and tried to put Coopers head collar on ( I appreciate now it may have made him feel trapped or cornered) His lip turned up and he snapped at my hands, i attempted a couple of times to get the collar on and was repeatedly bitten (quite hard although only 22 weeks old he's roughly 60 pounds already and it wasn't play biting) I took him from the car and got some treats to try and make it a more pleasent experience but every time the collar came close to him he snarled and bit me.
> 
> I appreciate he may not like the collar and we may have to look at other options but im concerned at how readily he will bite out. My old dog Redd WOULDN'T bite you, even if you deserved it, Cooper has been raised no differently and I appreciate he may be a more stubborn breed but i didn't expect this. Although a little edgey afterwards, he allowed me to get close to him "in his face" without the collar, but he's made it clear if i put that collar on him he WILL bite me  :scared:
> 
> Is this common if a dog has a dislike to something and "pushed into doing it" or....., as i have always suspected, is my dog an ARS*HO*E??


When you first used it did you just strap it on and go out for a walk? Or did you introduce it slowly just letting him put his face in the nose bit to get a treat and when he was ok with that doing up the neck strap and treating, then when it was on just for a minute or two at first and so on. If you did the former and he freaked and didnt like it from the beginning that may have been the trouble.

Also what one have you got. Some although sized you can only adjust the neck strap you cant the nose strap, so you have to be pretty lucky if you get a really good fit. It can end up twisting riding up in the eyes rubbing and allsorts especially on a dog with a flattish face and wrinkling like a DDB, he may find it really uncomfortable and it may rub and make him sore.

You really do need to spend time introducing it and making sure you get the right sort and its a good fit.

He obviously really doesnt like it now and confined in a car was probably not the best move to try and get it on either. A dog that is forced into something and he associates with stress and it might even be discomfort too will do what he has done.

I still maintain that some of his trouble is down to being raised outside and with not enough handling on a daily basis. Didnt you get him as a slightly older pup too?


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

diablo said:


> how old is he ?


About 22 weeks


Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> How about just trying a slip lead into a figure of 8, loop one bit over the nose and the other bit behind the ears?
> 
> He might feel less restricted in it, or invasive putting it on.
> 
> ...





redroses2106 said:


> Have you just put the collar straight on him?
> it really needs to be introduced, most dogs will not like a head collar at first
> 
> with my girl its taken just over a week
> ...





Sled dog hotel said:


> When you first used it did you just strap it on and go out for a walk? Or did you introduce it slowly just letting him put his face in the nose bit to get a treat and when he was ok with that doing up the neck strap and treating, then when it was on just for a minute or two at first and so on. If you did the former and he freaked and didnt like it from the beginning that may have been the trouble.
> 
> Also what one have you got. Some although sized you can only adjust the neck strap you cant the nose strap, so you have to be pretty lucky if you get a really good fit. It can end up twisting riding up in the eyes rubbing and allsorts especially on a dog with a flattish face and wrinkling like a DDB, he may find it really uncomfortable and it may rub and make him sore.
> 
> ...


When we 1st got the collar it was strapped on and walk, he doesn't seem to like it that much and occassionly stops to roll on floor. He has worn it a few times but the last time he wore it for me he played up as i went to clip it behind his head but i managed to get it on, im gong to leave it for a bit as he got really worked up this evening, ive got a big cut on my arm aswell.

The collar is a pets at home collar, the idea was to buy a relatively cheap one as he's growing then buy a decent one when he's an adult, we thought it was a good idea to get him used to head collars whilst growing. The slip lead seems a good idea though.

Cooper is a grumpy sod and iv'e started getting used to him, iv'e said before he worried us before as he growls when taken by the collar if he's naughty, he growls alot but it seems like miserable "groaning" rather than aggressive growling and to be honest he still protests at things like that, he growls alot but iv'e heard from other DDB owners they are very vocal. His Lips turn to a snarl at the hoover, Hairdryer, wet wipes, floor wipes aswell. This is the 1st time he's bitten me like this, But you're right i should have been more considerate when putting the collar on, sometimes i panic a little when things go wrong, ( I was thinking if i walk away and let him get away with not wearing the collar he will think he's found a way of getting what he wants, so ignored the biting and tried to get the collar on which looking back was stupid)

We got him at 8 weeks old


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

redginald said:


> About 22 weeks
> 
> When we 1st got the collar it was strapped on and walk, he doesn't seem to like it that much and occassionly stops to roll on floor. He has worn it a few times but the last time he wore it for me he played up as i went to clip it behind his head but i managed to get it on, im gong to leave it for a bit as he got really worked up this evening, ive got a big cut on my arm aswell.
> 
> ...


Start from scratch, forget today, forget everything and begin a fresh. re-introduce the collar tomorrow, as has been described it won't be done in a day take your time every couple of hours (if possible) show him it and let him sniff it, get his nose through but dont fasten it praise treat, spend 2-3 days doing this, leave the collar lying around aswell, next pop it on for a minute every couple of hours lots of praise and treat day 1 30 seconds -1 minute at a time, day two, one minute-2minutes, day 3 two minutes-3 minutes,day 4 you could give him dinner with it on, day 5 and day six a short 5-8 minute walk round the garden praise and treat, assosiate the collar with all things good.

he might be grumpy because things are scary to him, hes not been given the chance to get used to them, some dogs need baby steps, with the hairdryer let him smell it treats, turn it on a low setting, point it away from him let him investigate lots of praise and treats all things that he is growling at need to be introduced to him so he knows they aren't bad things, they won't cause him any harm give him the chance to sniff things, encourage it. If he really really hates these things and you can't get him used to them then don't use them around him put him in his crate or another room where he will feel safe.

it will take time but definatly worth the effort and he will be a happier dog aswell.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

I have no advise Apart from what has been said.

When did you first introduce him to the collar?

I have an 11 week old puppy and even though he doesn't need a collar yet and it's too big for hi , every day I ake it on and off of him several times so he's used to it. With him only being 22 weeks he's moe influenceable than he will be when he's older. :thumbup:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I am sorry but statement such as " _Cooper is a grumpy sod_" and "_His Lips turn to a snarl at the hoover, Hairdryer, wet wipes, floor wipes aswell"_ indicate future problems to me.

This behaviour at 22 weeks presage trouble ahead.

I would strongly suggest you that you speak to the vet and get him checked over for any underlying medical condition and then ask for a referral to a reputable behaviourist.

Choosing to use his teeth in this sort of situation concerns me and it should concern you too especially in a dog of this size.

Yes you have made mistakes but that still does not excuse this behaviour.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm in agreement with Smokey here (and that's happening way too often these days !! ) - I'm afraid I would NOT put up with this - you should be able to put a headcollar on without him threatening to bite no matter how much he dislikes it ! -he's gonna be a BIG adult and this needs to be stopped right now - once he realises that you are scared of him he'll push the boundaries even further until you find yourself tiptoeing round him - put the headcollar on before meals and leave it on whilst you play games and do basic reward based training with him - then clip his lead on and take him for a walk - make the connection with the headcollar a pleasurable one - not a battle of wills because believe me he'll win every time - those sharp teeth will trump any amount of 'reasoning '


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I think I agree too; trying to sort out problems with his teeth is very worrying and I'd want to get this SORTED while he's still a more manageable size.

As well as a vet check, I would consult a professional behaviourist to asses the situation and provide some advice. You could also look at t-touch.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

I agree with the two above 

And just to add that you're right in thinking if you walk away as soon as he growls/snaps will teach him to use aggression to get what he wants but instead of carrying on putting the headcollar on you're better stopping what you're doing but not moving away, stay exactly where you are (as long as it's safe to do so), be calm and don't move until he relaxes - that way your saying 'OK I know you don't like it but I'm not going to move away until you calm down'.

In terms of reintroducing the headcollar now I'd just leave it on the floor with some treats round it without him seeing you with it for a few times to start with.

ETA: The now three above


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Training classes.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

redginald said:


> Not been on here for a while, we got Cooper our DDB puppy a head collar a few weeks back to help control pulling and to get him used to a head collar incase he needs one as an adult. He doesn't really like having it on and will stop every now and again to try rub it off, he also is tricky to get the collar on but it's been do able up until today. We went shopping and when we returned Cooper ran out and sat in the car as we bought the shopping in. When we finished i sat in the car and tried to put Coopers head collar on ( I appreciate now it may have made him feel trapped or cornered) His lip turned up and he snapped at my hands, i attempted a couple of times to get the collar on and was repeatedly bitten (quite hard although only 22 weeks old he's roughly 60 pounds already and it wasn't play biting) I took him from the car and got some treats to try and make it a more pleasent experience but every time the collar came close to him he snarled and bit me.
> 
> I appreciate he may not like the collar and we may have to look at other options but im concerned at how readily he will bite out. My old dog Redd WOULDN'T bite you, even if you deserved it, Cooper has been raised no differently and I appreciate he may be a more stubborn breed but i didn't expect this. Although a little edgey afterwards, he allowed me to get close to him "in his face" without the collar, but he's made it clear if i put that collar on him he WILL bite me  :scared:
> 
> Is this common if a dog has a dislike to something and "pushed into doing it" or....., as i have always suspected, is my dog an ARS*HO*E??


Just to be fair on the dog, it sounds to me as though he finds this headcollar so uncomfortable that he is afraid of it. Even the gentlest dog might snap if you try to do something he is afraid of. My Joshua was the gentlest dog you could meet, but he was terrified of anyone going under his tail and he would bite if you tried.

I would have thought with the shape of the face on a DDB you might be better trying a non-pull harness, one of those padded ones with the ring at the front.

Just my opinion, but I am not sure that headcollars are suitable for all breeds. My two have long noses, so they work without being too uncomfortable.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm no behavourist and I'd love to hear you have got Cooper vet checked and a referral to a behaviourist.

In the mean time please stop thinking of Cooper as grumpy or wanting to get his own way. Think of him as a nervous dog who has learned that his warning that you are going to fast and he is scared will be ignored, a dog who needs things to be introduced slowly and positively. By continuing as you are so will he.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> I'm no behavourist and I'd love to hear you have got Cooper vet checked and a referral to a behaviourist.
> 
> In the mean time please stop thinking of Cooper as grumpy or wanting to get his own way. Think of him as a nervous dog who has learned that his warning that you are going to fast and he is scared will be ignored, a dog who needs things to be introduced slowly and positively. By continuing as you are so will he.


I was thinking that perhaps he is a dog that needs 'baby steps' - Kilo does when it comes to some new things, and I can immediately tell what freaks him out and will need careful handling and what doesn't. New coat / equafleece etc - fine; new running harness freaked him out as soon as it came out of the packing and eventually took me 5 days of lots of tiny sessions to get it on him willingly. I COULD have got it on on the first day I am guessing, but would have stressed him out rather than him shoving his head through and lifting his paws willingly as he's excited to get it on. Maybe Cooper just needs slow introductions to new things?


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

I am bit miffed at some of the comments..
Growling isn't resolving issues with aggression, the dogs is snapping just because his growling has been ignored, the next step will naturally be to to snap. Growling is communication first and foremost a warning of feeling uncomfortable, insecure.
Your dog sounds pretty anxious and insecure to be worried by so many things and sounds like his worries have not been addressed properly, dogs have different characters, it could be that things have not been introduced to him at the correct age, or simply he finds them too hard to cope with. Some dogs are not comfortable with being touched, perhaps he was uncomfortable at some stage and no one realized this so now even a wet wipe causes worry.
There is always a valid reason to the dog, even though we might miss it.

This is going to be a big dog to handle in the future, I am not in the known with the specifics of a DDB, but a head collar seems to be a lot to take on for a breed with his head shape and skin and something more appropriate to him might have been easier to get him accustomed.
Being vocal might mean dogs are growly, but there are good growls (in play, when excited) and the warning growls. 

You really need to see a behaviourist asap, I would avoid training classes because they could be counter productive with a nervous dog, instead do the training yourself in places he feels comfortable with to strengthen the bond with him instead. A good behaviourist will be able to suggest activities to engage with him and activities to avoid


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I'm no behavourist and I'd love to hear you have got Cooper vet checked and a referral to a behaviourist.
> 
> In the mean time please stop thinking of Cooper as grumpy or wanting to get his own way. Think of him as a nervous dog who has learned that his warning that you are going to fast and he is scared will be ignored, a dog who needs things to be introduced slowly and positively. By continuing as you are so will he.


Without actually seeing the dog, it's pretty hard to say whether he is a nervous dog or just one that likes to get his own way.

Considering he's a DDB and they're known for their fearless and stubborn temperament and requirement for an owner with a natural air of authority I'd be inclined to lean more toward the latter taking into account the OP's previous posts.

To the OP: Was Cooper displaying any body language that would indicate he was fearful when you got in the car with the headcollar?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> Without actually seeing the dog, it's pretty hard to say whether he is a nervous dog or just one that likes to get his own way.
> 
> Considering he's a DDB and they're known for their fearless and stubborn temperament and requirement for an owner with a natural air of authority I'd be inclined to lean more toward the latter taking into account the OP's previous posts.
> 
> To the OP: Was Cooper displaying any body language that would indicate he was fearful when you got in the car with the headcollar?


Doing the same forceful things will get the same results. going slowly and getting him on side it going to be a better approach. Putting him in confrontational situations and ignoring all his warnings it just forcing him to escalate. It just seems a very odd way to go about things to me.

I'm not going to be lured off on a tangent here. This is a very serious situation with the orignal poster, which could have horrible consequences for the OP and his family.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Galadriel17 said:


> Without actually seeing the dog, it's pretty hard to say whether he is a nervous dog or just one that likes to get his own way.
> 
> Considering he's a DDB and they're known for their fearless and stubborn temperament and requirement for an owner with a natural air of authority I'd be inclined to lean more toward the latter taking into account the OP's previous posts.
> 
> To the OP: Was Cooper displaying any body language that would indicate he was fearful when you got in the car with the headcollar?


the signs of discomfort can be extremely subtle to pick on, the most dangerous dog is the nervous dog, so for everybody's safety it would be better to give the dog as much space as possible to start with. 
I disagree about imposing your physical presence to him when he is growling, I would move away and turn my back instead telling the dog, I hear you you are safe. Whatever the breed is known for one can't apply it 100% to an individual young dog. He is also entering a difficult age, yes he could be playing up, but I gather this behaviour is not just started now I read it as an escalation which to me indicates an underlying tendency to stress


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Hmm, just read your http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/222254-think-cooper-just-bit-another-dog.html thread and it sounds like his behaviour could be fear based.

I think contacting a behaviourist is your best option so he can be fully assessed.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

I agree with other posters get him vet checked and contact a behaviorist. I've read a couple of your threads and you do seem to be having a few problems. If you can get these problems addressed now it will be a lot easier for all concerned than leaving it until he's older and much bigger.

As for the head collar, I'd leave this for now.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

dodigna said:


> the signs of discomfort can be extremely subtle to pick on, the most dangerous dog is the nervous dog, so for everybody's safety it would be better to give the dog as much space as possible to start with.
> I disagree about imposing your physical presence to him when he is growling, I would move away and turn my back instead telling the dog, I hear you you are safe. Whatever the breed is known for one can't apply it 100% to an individual young dog. He is also entering a difficult age, yes he could be playing up, but I gather this behaviour is not just started now I read it as an escalation which to me indicates an underlying tendency to stress


Even if it's fear based, I'd disagree with that. Leaving a dog that's being aggressive due to fear is 1) reinforcing the agression and 2) leaving him to sort himself out instead of helping him. Watch any calm, confident dog that's faced with that behaviour (from another dog) and he will turn slightly side on and stay exactly where he is then remain there either standing or lying down until to other dog relaxes, then he moves away after he's helped the other dog calm down and shown him what to do.

Just to add though that you should only do that if you know what you're doing and not fearful yourself.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Is Coop like this with the children? If so, this is even more urgent than previously said. Especially if you do not know what triggers his behaviour.

Good luck trying to sort this out.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

dogues can go through what i call `stroppy` stages , to be honest you may giving him too much exercise at 20 weeks he`s still very much developing and the soft bones and ligaments are still forming. he could be associating the collar with any pain he could be feeling , especially if your walking the bones off him because like any other mastiff , they are prone to growing pains.
Panostitis - The Information Website for the Health & Welfare of the St Bernard
you do need to nip this in the bud before he becomes unhandleable and i agree with the others vet check and behaviourist.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Can I just say head collars ARE NOT ADVISABLE until at least one year old as the dog is growing at such a fast rate it can do damage to develping muscle etc, most have this on their labels!

The headcollar could be hurting him hence his reaction. IMO head collars etc are a last resort to normal training classes etc


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

So you slung the headcollar on without getting him used to it and wonder why he does not like it?

Do you take him to puppy/obedience classes?


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

It might be at his age he could be still teething the big back ones so maybe his gums aree sore and it hurts having somithing round his nose/mouth. I agree with everyone else take things back to the start and take things really slowly introducing the head collar and get a behaviorist and get this sorted when he is young as you dont want a full grown ddb thinking its ok to have a go at you. Are you still in touch with his breeder they might be able to help as they know the breed so well and a good breeder will want to help you.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

i echo the others who say get a behaviourist and soon.

as you have very young children this behaviour has to stop, say they were to pick up the lead or a wet wipe and come towards him, what would he do?

i know he is a puppy but he is a big puppy and soon he will be an even bigger dog and i really think looking at other threads of yours he may need a fair bit of training to get him behaving well and with the children there it is a serious matter if he is biting when not happy.

id phone around today for one.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Galadriel17 said:


> Even if it's fear based, I'd disagree with that. Leaving a dog that's being aggressive due to fear is 1) reinforcing the agression and 2) leaving him to sort himself out instead of helping him. Watch any calm, confident dog that's faced with that behaviour (from another dog) and he will turn slightly side on and stay exactly where he is then remain there either standing or lying down until to other dog relaxes, then he moves away after he's helped the other dog calm down and shown him what to do.
> 
> Just to add though that you should only do that if you know what you're doing and not fearful yourself.


I understand the point you are trying to make, but the elements of communication between two dogs are a mind field, we can attempt to mimic some of the more obvious ones, but there is a lot more to turning side ways and standing calm or laying down, there is mouth, eye, ears, fur, involved and each dog according to its breed and conformation would have developed slight differences. How do you mimic a dog that has a high tail carriage as the norm to a dog that has a high aroused tail. Little degrees of stiffness I suppose, or so it is in my own...
Dogs understand each other so much better. A confident dog will pick on the nerves of teh scared dog and will understand the distance element as well, will know when it is safe to stay close and when it isn't, when to approach and when to totally leave. I have seen a lot of confident dogs actually pretending (to our human eye) the nervous dog si not there at all, they don't even seem to make eye contact and all along they are talking, the same confident dog then has a totally different approach to another nervous dog, they might instigate a chase, they might lay down belly up to sprone some self-estime. Go figure it!
They are dogs, it is their mother tongue, we are just learning

I still think it is safer to let the nervous dog be, then in time, once he feels at more at ease reduce that distance. But it's little steps


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies, we will contact the vets behaviourist to get him assesed,.she msy also help us find an avaliable midweek training class. After reading posts there could be a number of reasons why he hates the collar he was also walked earlier that day, I always take him for a five min walk as we had problems before so he may have been uncomfortable. I accept and understand I may have deserved to be bitten, until checked maybe the col ok at has hurt him and he is now petrified, it does worry me still that he bit out, ive had dogs th as t have been scared of things ,but they we would never bite. 1 of the qualities of he ddb thay appealed was the high stimulus threshold, cooper does not have this


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Hi redginald, in what Ive read of your threads, this is not unexpected TBH...

Dogues are a molosser breed, and the ones who dont do well with manhandling tend to *really* not do well with that type of handling if that makes sense. Ive read several posts where there is a feel of you making him do things. Thats what I mean by manhandling. Doesnt have to be forceful.

There is a marked difference between *making* a dog do something and the dog *choosing* to do something because he understands what is being asked of him and he has been positively motivated to do it. And ultimately your relationship with your dog will reflect that difference.

It also sounds like you have a bit of a fearful dog on your hands, and again with this type of breed, that fear often turns in to the fight part of the flight or fight equation. Dogs have 3 choices when they feel threatened. Fight, flight, avoidance. Cooper has tried avoidance several times in your posts, and you saw it as him being stubborn and willful. 
In the situation in the car, the flight part was literally removed, and avoidance wasnt an option, which is why he chose fight. But eventually he will default to fight even when flight and avoidance are a possibility. I see this all the time with big, powerful, guardian breeds.

I think your best bet it to start over, preferably under the tutelage of a credentialed, experienced trainer who understands how to create cooperative relationships instead of combative ones.

Right now you have a relationship with your dog that is essentially based on a series of confrontations to be won. With a dog like this, its going to get to the point where hes not going to cede and one of you is going to end up hurt. Ive seen this progression one too many times with big, powerful dogs coming in to themselves.

Every time you have one of these battle of wills with Cooper, you are teaching him just how physically powerful he is. Doesnt matter if you win that particular battle, the war is still on *until* you guys learn to work in cooperation with each other instead of this you will mind because I am the superior human.

Try to move away from the negative labels like stubborn, and willful and nasty. He is not trying to be a jerk, I promise. He simply lacks understanding of what you want, and why your asking it of him. More importantly, he doesnt trust you - namely because he doesnt understand you. Leadership is about making yourself someone the dog will choose to follow, you cannot force a dog to follow a leader he does not trust. Does that make sense?


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

what sort of headcollar is it? im assuming a halti style one with the ring under the chin?

if so this is very bad for young dogs, especially as when young and inquisitive they have a tendancy to lunge at everything, crispt packets, people, other dogs, leaves  when a dog lunges or you 'check' a dog on that type of headcollar (which you should never do) it twists the head to the side and can seriously damage muscles in the neck and can even damage the spine!

The best way to teach a dog to walk to heel is clicker training and the turning around method, a young dog learns very quickly and its much more enjoyable for them than having a halti on, the dog rolling around on the floor shows his discomfort and so its no surprise he is going for you if you continue to use it when it has only been associated with discomfort, and not anything good

I'd stop using the headcollar straight away and get him to training classes, if you need something to give you more control try a front leading harness


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

dodigna said:


> I understand the point you are trying to make, but the elements of communication between two dogs are a mind field, we can attempt to mimic some of the more obvious ones, but there is a lot more to turning side ways and standing calm or laying down, there is mouth, eye, ears, fur, involved and each dog according to its breed and conformation would have developed slight differences. How do you mimic a dog that has a high tail carriage as the norm to a dog that has a high aroused tail. Little degrees of stiffness I suppose, or so it is in my own...
> Dogs understand each other so much better. A confident dog will pick on the nerves of teh scared dog and will understand the distance element as well, will know when it is safe to stay close and when it isn't, when to approach and when to totally leave. I have seen a lot of confident dogs actually pretending (to our human eye) the nervous dog si not there at all, they don't even seem to make eye contact and all along they are talking, the same confident dog then has a totally different approach to another nervous dog, they might instigate a chase, they might lay down belly up to sprone some self-estime. Go figure it!
> They are dogs, it is their mother tongue, we are just learning
> 
> I still think it is safer to let the nervous dog be, then in time, once he feels at more at ease reduce that distance. But it's little steps


I completely understand what you're saying which is why I said you should only do it if you know what you're doing and know it's safe to do so


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> ...Leadership is about making yourself someone the dog will choose to follow, you cannot force a dog to follow a leader he does not trust...


Couldn't agree with this more; what ever the cause of Cooper's behaviour, it's clear you need to work on building trust with him. Hope you can get an appointment quickly


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> Thanks for all the replies, we will contact the vets behaviourist to get him assesed,.she msy also help us find an avaliable midweek training class. After reading posts there could be a number of reasons why he hates the collar he was also walked earlier that day, I always take him for a five min walk as we had problems before so he may have been uncomfortable. I accept and understand I may have deserved to be bitten, until checked maybe the col ok at has hurt him and he is now petrified, it does worry me still that he bit out, ive had dogs th as t have been scared of things ,but they we would never bite. *1 of the qualities of he ddb thay appealed was the high stimulus threshold*, cooper does not have this


is cooper your first dogue de bordeaux ? i`ll think you`ll find talking to different breeders that their temperaments can vary and i think it`s really important that all research shouldn`t be carried out on the internet and from reading books , while all these things are helpful , nothing more educational than speaking to different people who have years of experience with the breed , dogues go through different stages while they are growing because they are such a fast growing breed which is why socialization is so important with such large dogs , their bodies may tell you otherwise but their brains aren`t mature.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Am rather nervous about asking because I really do not want to upset or offend you but ............  can't stop myself, but will apologise to start with in case am way off beam.

You had a much loved lab before who was a big softy I think? Reading between the lines can't help suspecting you have found the difference in nature between Red and Cooper rather hard to handle and expected to have just a bigger version of Red. I just get the vague impression you find Cooper a bit intimidating and your real concern is what will he be like when he is older/bigger so that you daren't "let him get away" with things. Maybe unwittingly you have tried to be "boss" so that Cooper doesn't get the upper hand - I don't mean in an alpha-rolling type of way just sort of I want you to have this head collar on and you will have it on otherwise you have won. Seems that you and Cooper have ended up not comfortable with each other.

The behavourist would be a good idea because would be able to get your relationship back on an even keel so you can start over.

Good luck


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have not read all the replies but I am surprised that no one (you included) has thought of your young children. This is a PUPPY and it has bitten you badly enough to cut your arm. This is serious stuff. What happens when one of your children do something he doesnt like and he bites them and causes a serious injury.
I think you have some very serious thinking to do here. You have chosen a breed that I assume is not the easiest of breeds and you do not sound as though you have handled him very well. Already at this young age you are having problems that should never had happened.
Do be very careful please.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I have not read all the replies but I am surprised that no one (you included) has thought of your young children. This is a PUPPY and it has bitten you badly enough to cut your arm. This is serious stuff. What happens when one of your children do something he doesnt like and he bites them and causes a serious injury.
> I think you have some very serious thinking to do here. You have chosen a breed that I assume is not the easiest of breeds and you do not sound as though you have handled him very well. Already at this young age you are having problems that should never had happened.
> Do be very careful please.


i agree but i would say this is something that can be turned around with the correct handling and understanding , he`s a pup he`s still very much a blank canvas.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

diablo said:


> i agree but i would say this is something that can be turned around with the correct handling and understanding , he`s a pup he`s still very much a blank canvas.


I do agree but meanwhile the children are at very high risk of being bitten by inadvertently doing something the puppy does not like. Personally I would put my children first in this situation.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I have not read all the replies but I am surprised that no one (you included) has thought of your young children. This is a PUPPY and it has bitten you badly enough to cut your arm. This is serious stuff. What happens when one of your children do something he doesnt like and he bites them and causes a serious injury.
> I think you have some very serious thinking to do here. You have chosen a breed that I assume is not the easiest of breeds and you do not sound as though you have handled him very well. Already at this young age you are having problems that should never had happened.
> Do be very careful please.


Moonviolet, terencesmum and emmavoilet all mentioned about the fact the OP has young children.

I think its unfair to say the OP hasnt thought about his children, they're asking for help here and they've said theyre going to take him to see the vet and see a behaviourist. I think better advice is needed than 'Do be careful'


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I do agree but meanwhile the children are at very high risk of being bitten by inadvertently doing something the puppy does not like. Personally I would put my children first in this situation.


yes , hear what your saying and it`s a worry i do agree. quite often the mistake people make with breeds like this is attempting to reinforce whose boss by forcing them into positions they aren`t comfortable with , this is the first mistake thats been made , it`s realising how to correct that to put things right. i`ve often found though it`s very easy to go in mob handed with dogs like this and force them into submission [i don`t mean that in a nasty way] often things don`t often work out that way , all you end up with is a dog that hates you and one that can often retaliate , quite often these breeds have their own minds and it`s knowing how to channel that and reversing psychology on the dog which the OP is going to need help doing to get things back on track with this pup. last thing anyone wants to hear is news that a puppy has bitten a child when it was completely preventable in the first place.
these aren`t breeds for the faint hearted , which is often the mistake people make when obtaining them because they are adorable as pups , it`s a long road getting these kinds of breeds to do as you want them to do and theres no quick fix , plus he`s a male and they can be cheeky and bloshy so he`s going to go through stages where he will challenge his owner , it`s what these breeds do best when you back them into corners regarding situations they don`t like , my own boy whose now passed had his moments , believe me


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

diablo said:


> yes , hear what your saying and it`s a worry i do agree. *quite often the mistake people make with breeds like this is attempting to reinforce whose boss by forcing them into positions they aren`t comfortable with , this is the first mistake thats been made *, it`s realising how to correct that to put things right. i`ve often found though it`s very easy to go in mob handed with dogs like this and force them into submission [i don`t mean that in a nasty way] often things don`t often work out that way , all you end up with is a dog that hates you and one that can often retaliate ,* quite often these breeds have their own minds and it`s knowing how to channel that and reversing psychology on the dog which the OP is going to need help doing to get things back on track with this pup. * last thing anyone wants to hear is news that a puppy has bitten a child when it was completely preventable in the first place.
> *these aren`t breeds for the faint hearted , which is often the mistake people make when obtaining them because they are adorable as pups , it`s a long road getting these kinds of breeds to do as you want them to do and theres no quick fix , plus he`s a male and they can be cheeky and bloshy so he`s going to go through stages where he will challenge his owner , it`s what these breeds do best when you back them into corners regarding situations they don`t like *, my own boy whose now passed had his moments , believe me


I couldn't agree more. It took me a while to get Mr "independent" Buster to do as he's told!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

The main problem we have with the kids is.cooper is still very boisterous but then he is also a pup still, hes been too rough with the kids before, hes also knock them over but we would expect this from a pup. thisis very different to his aggressivness last night. We NEVER leave the kids with him alone. cooper let me in his face and touch his coller etc after thr incident it was the headcollar bringing the devil out. Of course im concerned about the kids thats why im asking for help. if some of my methods seem to be a little "im bigger than you" its not what i intend, i dont want competition with him but cooper keeps putting me in stran situations where what i do next could effect his behaviour and i kerp making the wsrong decisions

please forgive my spelling, im not illiterate but im am using s new phone and im getting on better with cooper thsn this piece of junk


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> The main problem we have with the kids is.cooper is still very boisterous but then he is also a pup still, hes been too rough with the kids before, hes also knock them over but we would expect this from a pup. thisis very different to his aggressivness last night. We NEVER leave the kids with him alone. cooper let me in his face and touch his coller etc after thr incident it was the headcollar bringing the devil out. Of course im concerned about the kids thats why im asking for help. if some of my methods seem to be a little "im bigger than you" its not what i intend, i dont want competition with him but cooper keeps putting me in stran situations where what i do next could effect his behaviour and i kerp making the wsrong decisions
> 
> please forgive my spelling, im not illiterate but im am using s new phone and im getting on better with cooper thsn this piece of junk


what you`ve got to stop doing is getting in his face , often it`s difficult to read the signs , but they are already there , if he`s bitten you once , he will be prepared to do it again , right now i`d get rid of the head collar if its making him uncomfortable and work on gaining some of that trust back and reintroduce it at a later date , you`ve got to work hard on making him comfortable and re-inforce some positive training methods where he will enjoy being taught , it won`t seem like such a drag to him then.
plus i`d work hard on really training him around those children , make him realise what is and isn`t acceptable and what you expect from him when he`s in their company.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> cooper let me in his face and touch his coller etc after thr incident *it was the headcollar bringing the devil out*. Of course im concerned about the kids thats why im asking for help. if some of my methods seem to be a little "im bigger than you" *its not what i intend*, i dont want competition with him but *cooper keeps putting me in stran situations* where what i do next could effect his behaviour and i kerp making the wsrong decisions


Please don't beat yourself up too much. Just accept responsibility, learn, and move on. While looking for a behavioralist see if you can get a hold of a book called "The other end of the leash" by Patricia McConnell. Its not a "how to" book, but it will help you make the shift in understanding. 
Of course you don't intend to be confrontational with Cooper, but that is indeed what is happening and how he is interpreting you, intended or not.
Another great book to help you understand this a little better is "Bones would rain from the sky" by Suzanne Clothier.

Many people go through life with easy going dogs who give up easily, back off with just a few stern words, and while thier relationship may not be the best, you don't generally see much fall-out from these types of dogs. 
You have chosen a breed that was historically bred to NOT give up and NOT back down. How lucky for you in a sense because you now have an opportunity to really see what a huge difference you can make by simply tweaking your relationship.

I've bolded a few statements above that show how you're still not quite seeing things from Cooper's perspective, and you're still trying to shift blame on to the dog. Cooper is not putting you in strange situations, you are putting him in uncomfortable situation where he feels like he is not being heard, so he is going to escalate to a level that you do respond to.

Try to be observant without being judgemental.

For example, the head collar did not bring the devil out in the dog. The dog was minding his own business, and you threw a noose around his nose that he found uncomfortable and had no understanding of why it was there or how he was supposed to feel about it. (You did not pair it with treats and pets and positive associations to tell him "this head collar means wonderful things will happen.") So without being told what the headcollar means, he felt very uncomfortable. Every time he sees you approach with this head collar, he knows you will put it on and he knows he will feel uncomfortable. So he tried to avoid it like any smart creature would. But you wouldn't let him avoid it even though he was telling you in no uncertain terms that he didn't like it. But you didn't stop and listen to him, you didn't explain to him what you were doing, you didn't help him see it as a positive thing. So YOU pushed him to bite.

I'm not telling you this to blame you or make you feel bad, but to explain to you how the dog is probably feeling and to help you do things differently.
Nor am I saying the dog's behavior is acceptable. However, it IS totally preventable if you let the dog know that the headcollar is not a bad thing. (Though I agree that he would probably be much happier in a front clip harness. I'm not a huge fan of head collars anyway, less so for a brachiocephalic breed.)

Like I said, without a change in how this dog is managed, he will begin to default to aggression and he will escalate in his aggression. Of that I am sure. 
However, I do NOT think this is an inherently dangerous dog. I think this is a fairly mellow dog who is being pushed to behave in a way he would rather not, and I think you will find that once Cooper gets what is being asked of him, learns that he will be listened to and he can trust his humans, he will become quite biddable and easygoing.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Dober said:


> Moonviolet, terencesmum and emmavoilet all mentioned about the fact the OP has young children.
> 
> I think its unfair to say the OP hasnt thought about his children, they're asking for help here and they've said theyre going to take him to see the vet and see a behaviourist. I think better advice is needed than 'Do be careful'


yes i agree too that he has thought of the kids but in previous posts he has said before about going to training and he still hasn't.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> About 22 weeks
> 
> When we 1st got the collar it was strapped on and walk, he doesn't seem to like it that much and occassionly stops to roll on floor. He has worn it a few times but the last time he wore it for me he played up as i went to clip it behind his head but i managed to get it on, im gong to leave it for a bit as he got really worked up this evening, ive got a big cut on my arm aswell.
> 
> ...


Are the Inlaws still offering to help out with the cost of a one to one behavioursist/Trainer. I still maintain that he needs a proper assesment and Management stratergy. Hoover, hairdryer, wipes are common everyday things.
Usually dogs that have problems with things are often nervous, anxious types who may also have had poor earlier introductions and human handling. There were all the previous quirks and problems and his reactions when he first went outside (dont know how thats going now?).

Some of it may be the strops and pushing his luck Im not saying it isnt, but growling and lip lifting can also be something a stressed, or anxious dog will do. I believe something like 80% of aggressive problems are rooted in uncertainty and stress and fear based. To be honest a stropy dog thats trying it on and pushing boundaries and seeing what he can get away with is easier, because they are consistant with it. A dog that also reacts out of stress or anxiousness isnt so easy, becaue it can make them unpredictable.
There is also a difference how you go about a full of themselves dog thats pushing his luck and one thats reacting from stress.

Whatever the reason, I dont think challenging and the you will do it because I said so and now approach is going to work, firm but fair handling is the way to go. They are an independant stubborn breed I think and I should imagine he will just dig his heels in all the more.

I still think you should get a behavioursit in. One things certain whatever his problems they are likely to grow with him if its not adressed.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - How Much Does Your Dog's Cooperation Weigh?

This article is written by one of the authors I suggested a few posts ago, Suzanne Clothier, and it conveys far better than I can what I'm trying to explain to you 
Here's a snippet (bolded mine).


> Anytime you're aware how strong another being is, how much they weigh, it's probably because they are working against you and not with you. (Unless you are deliberately asking the dog to pull as you might in tracking, agitation work, tug games, or if they sit/lay on top of you, or having to restrain them for a veterinary procedure, etc). Anytime you think, "Heavens, this dog is so strong!" it's probably time to back up and *find a way to reconnect*.
> 
> A lot of so called "training" equipment is actually "restraining" equipment, and allows the handler to physically hang on to and direct the dog. My goal as an instructor is to develop the connection so that the lead/collar simply becomes a safety device, a backup net if you will for any mistakes that may be made (especially in places where there's no room for a mistake to be made safely), a nod to local leash laws, and sometimes, a way to deliver soft signals of guidance. *Training is not about the equipment - it's about the connection, the relationship, the cooperation.*
> 
> The dog's willing cooperation weighs nothing. It is those moments of connection that we find the "unbearable lightness of being" - then it becomes a dance of two minds, two hearts, and not a physical contest.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Great article!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

thanks for all of the advice, i have taken cooper for a walk this evening without the collar but loads of cheese instead, he was really well behaved and did everything asked of him at the drop of a hat. I'm going to book him in to see the behaviorist this week.

Iv'e read alot of the advice on here and appreciate it, i can appreciate there is probably alot of people thinking "an idiot who has watched Turner and Hooch and just bought a dog on a whim and now he's going to let it go into the sewers and it's going to turn into a teenage mutant ninja dog  " this isn't the case, iv'e stated before a Dogue had been on the cards for years but the circumstances were not right, it would appear they still aren't but i'm not giving up without trying. We contacted numerous breeders years ago, asked for opinions on Dogues with kids, we carried out ALOT of research and however in accurate dog bite stats may be i even researched these. Maybe I did bite off more than i can chew, i may not have prepared enough but it wasn't on a whim.

I know we didn't take him training, we have children, both work and had planned to take him, he was booked for a puppy party at 12 weeks old which would have lead to training, we managed to arrange our work hours around it, got a baby sitter, turned up to an empty vet to be told cancelled until next week ( we couldn't do) we then tried to get him to training but all the courses had started at the start of jan and no midweek sessions were taking on. We have taken him every weekend to dog walking areas for socialisation. we've taken him on holiday to the country to stay with 15 people of all ages, he's also been at my kids parties and has never shown aggression to people (except me) He always approaches the local kids for fussing, my girlfriend also walks him to playschool to get used to the kids. Although not perfect training, we have attempted to raise him properly even if it isn't up to peoples standards. Im not trying to be an ars*hol*, obviously our methods are not working and am open to suggestions and appreciate the ones iv'e had, most posts have been very helpful, i do however feel i have to defend myself as a few seem to have implied im an idiot that doesn't care for my kids.

I like and understand the theory on working with your dog, when walking earlier he stopped and was sniffing the grass for ages , rather than "yank" him like normal forward i called him him with a treat, i carried on like this and he was more co operative on the walk and seemed happier. i know this seems like no brain stuff but normally he isn't interested in treats but for whatever reason today he played the game. 

Although as in other threads he is sometimes over playful with the kids (he is a 22 week old puppy) he doesn't show aggression towards them or any body else, we don't leave them together and I more than anybody want these issues resolved for the best interest of everybody especially the kids, for now we won't be letting my 1 year old or 4 year old put the head collar on the dog, or do the hoovering, I also won't be letting them drive my car.


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## Mophie (Sep 20, 2011)

I echo everyone e else's words with getting professional help. 

Head collars aren't comfortable to start with it needs time and reassurance to get your dog to accept you putting something on their face.

I realise what I'm about to say might get me shot down but I feel it needs to be said you need to stop comparing Cooper to Redd you appear to do it a lot judging from your other posts. I know you loved Redd dearly and he was a calm chilled out dog but Cooper is completely different with his own personality the comparisons you make seem a little unfair on a 22 week old pup...


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

redginald said:


> thanks for all of the advice, i have taken cooper for a walk this evening without the collar but loads of cheese instead, he was really well behaved and did everything asked of him at the drop of a hat. I'm going to book him in to see the behaviorist this week.
> 
> Iv'e read alot of the advice on here and appreciate it, i can appreciate there is probably alot of people thinking "an idiot who has watched Turner and Hooch and just bought a dog on a whim and now he's going to let it go into the sewers and it's going to turn into a teenage mutant ninja dog  " this isn't the case, iv'e stated before a Dogue had been on the cards for years but the circumstances were not right, it would appear they still aren't but i'm not giving up without trying. We contacted numerous breeders years ago, asked for opinions on Dogues with kids, we carried out ALOT of research and however in accurate dog bite stats may be i even researched these. Maybe I did bite off more than i can chew, i may not have prepared enough but it wasn't on a whim.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to say, don't beat yourself up too much. You are obviously trying. Okay, so it is not working at the moment, but you are trying to fix it. Good on you. Many people don't. 

If you want to be Cooper's friend and gain his respect, I have found it really helpful to play with Terence and drop a few obedience bits in here and there. Say, you throw his ball (or whatever his favourite game is) a few times, when he comes to you, say "sit", give him a treat and a massive fuss and then continue with his play. So it's all fun rather than 10 minutes of enforced obedience training if that makes any sense.

I really hope you can sort it soon.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> thanks for all of the advice, i have taken cooper for a walk this evening without the collar but loads of cheese instead, he was really well behaved and did everything asked of him at the drop of a hat. I'm going to book him in to see the behaviorist this week.
> 
> Iv'e read alot of the advice on here and appreciate it, i can appreciate there is probably alot of people thinking "*an idiot who has watched Turner and Hooch and just bought a dog on a whim and now he's going to let it go into the sewers and it's going to turn into a teenage mutant ninja dog * " this isn't the case, iv'e stated before a Dogue had been on the cards for years but the circumstances were not right, it would appear they still aren't but i'm not giving up without trying. We contacted numerous breeders years ago, asked for opinions on Dogues with kids, we carried out ALOT of research and however in accurate dog bite stats may be i even researched these. Maybe I did bite off more than i can chew, i may not have prepared enough but it wasn't on a whim.
> 
> ...


look i wouldn`t be beating yourself up , get professional help in , treat it all as a learning curve , many would have given up on cooper at the first hurdle so don`t be hard on yourself.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Mophie said:


> I echo everyone e else's words with getting professional help.
> 
> Head collars aren't comfortable to start with it needs time and reassurance to get your dog to accept you putting something on their face.
> 
> I realise what I'm about to say might get me shot down but I feel it needs to be said you need to stop comparing Cooper to Redd you appear to do it a lot judging from your other posts. I know you loved Redd dearly and he was a calm chilled out dog but Cooper is completely different with his own personality the comparisons you make seem a little unfair on a 22 week old pup...


I get that from my girlfriend aswell, she often says you obviously can't remember Redd as a puppy!, we didn't have kids when redd was a puppy, Redd wasn't 60lbs at 22 weeks old either


terencesmum said:


> Just wanted to say, don't beat yourself up too much. You are obviously trying. Okay, so it is not working at the moment, but you are trying to fix it. Good on you. Many people don't.
> 
> If you want to be Cooper's friend and gain his respect, I have found it really helpful to play with Terence and drop a few obedience bits in here and there. Say, you throw his ball (or whatever his favourite game is) a few times, when he comes to you, say "sit", give him a treat and a massive fuss and then continue with his play. So it's all fun rather than 10 minutes of enforced obedience training if that makes any sense.
> 
> I really hope you can sort it soon.


Cheers, just taking the cheese on the walk helped, normally he ignores treats but i was asking him to sit and he was actually doing it. we've given him a little more attention tonight and he's been really good, was playing fetch earlier


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

redginald said:


> Cheers, just taking the cheese on the walk helped, normally he ignores treats but i was asking him to sit and he was actually doing it. we've given him a little more attention tonight and he's been really good, was playing fetch earlier


Yeah, it's hard when you've got little kiddies as well. I have a 1-year old and a 3-year old and sometimes I feel bad if Terence doesn't get as much attention as he needs/deserves. Sometimes, just taking 20 minutes after bedtime can make all the difference.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Are you still in contact with his breeder? they should be of help with things like this. And if you dont mind me asking where did you get him from? (can pm me if you will!)


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

diablo said:


> look i wouldn`t be beating yourself up , get professional help in , treat it all as a learning curve , many would have given up on cooper at the first hurdle so don`t be hard on yourself.





terencesmum said:


> Yeah, it's hard when you've got little kiddies as well. I have a 1-year old and a 3-year old and sometimes I feel bad if Terence doesn't get as much attention as he needs/deserves. Sometimes, just taking 20 minutes after bedtime can make all the difference.


It's difficult at times but we took him on. Its worst when my girlfriend does eves, I work 8.30-5 come home take her to work for 5.30 and pick her up at 8 with the kids, those days suck.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I do believe that it's in the best interests of some breeds to be raised inside. I actually think all dogs should be raised in the home environment but know that many aren't and are good dogs all the same but the more difficult breeds I feel should always be raised with the family. I also wonder if the pups are raised outside are the dogs parents also "back yard" dogs as Jean Donaldson calls them. I totally agree with her inasmuch as are social animals and should always be raised in the home with the family. She feels "back yard" dogs are never quite as sociable as in house dogs.

I was lucky with our Mals, all of them just had the head collar put on with the aid of treats and taken out, they would paw at it occasionally in the early days and even now rub their faces on the furniture when they come in but have never shown any form of aggression having it put on.

I would reward Cooper every time he see's the head collar, leave it where he can sniff it, like on the sofa and handle it every now and then without putting it on but treat him for coming over to you and sniffing it. Put it on now and then and take it off after five mins when you are not going out, perhaps even play with him in it so as he see's it as a good fun thing to have.

I really feel for you having the problems you are having with Cooper and know how hard it is not to compare him with dear old Redd. Unfortunately you took on a more difficult breed this time around and now you will need to put in extra training to get him the way you want. I wouldn't let him just help himself to running and getting in your car - in fact I wouldn't let him help himself to anything *he* wants to do as he sounds like he will just take liberties with you.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

redginald said:


> It's difficult at times but we took him on. Its worst when my girlfriend does eves, I work 8.30-5 come home take her to work for 5.30 and pick her up at 8 with the kids, those days suck.


I completely sympathise. My husband is away a lot and sometimes I just don't feel like 20 minutes of training/play with him after I have put the kiddies to bed and worked a full day. But I tell myself that it's not Terence's fault. He deserves some of my time, and I do it. I feel better after as well. No guilty conscience.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Ahh he wasn't brought up in the house then? that makes a difference again, i wouldnt personally buy from a breeder that didnt keep the puppies in the house. Those first few weeks hearing the sights, sounds and smells are so important. 
Thats probably why he growls at random things, he hasnt heard, seen these things from early on so hes scared. douges are really sensitive.


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## Mollyspringer (Aug 16, 2011)

Do feel for you. We got Molly at 5 months-sorry if I'm being boring-she was tied to a post for the start of her life and hadn't been inside a house, just in a shed. I know it's not the same thing at all as she's a Springer, but we had terrible problems with her those first few weeks. I got some amazing support/advice on here. I'm so glad we stuck with her, she's just lovely now.
I hope you can get Cooper where you want him. It is hard work and must be very upsetting for you. All I can say is-hang in there!! xx


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I would also say you could ditch the face harness all together, and teach him to walk loose-leash on a front clipping harness.










Something like this which clips on the front and clips on the back.

Here is a good video for teaching loose leash walking:

How to train your dog not to pull- Loose Leash Walking - YouTube


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Its very easy after you have had a dog for years and a dog that is really easy and so laid back like Redd was, to get lulled into a false sense of security. Its also not hard to forget just how much hard work a pup is all round and how different to a mature dog you have had for years.
Add to that an entirely different breed (however much research you have done) one thats more independant, bigger more stubborn likely to train as well, and also one that I still say raised outside and the fact I believe she had a couple of litters too (unless I have it wrong) there could well have been a lack of handling and human socialisation or not as much as he should have had by 8 weeks,also not being used to an urban busier environment that will then add to the situation.

Kobi was my first Malamute and my first puppy and even though I had four dogs and rescues with some baggage before and straightened them out, and knew a Mal was different, I still had problems, a lot was behaviour because he had a similar start to cooper,certain situations he couldnt cope with and his behaviour all started with outside, which ended up overflowing at times at home when he was really stressed. So your not the only one whos ever had problems and not got everything perfect and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.So dont beat your self up entirely.

Sometimes you can get so steeped in the problems you miss things too, or run out of ideas. Thats why I suggested a behaviourist. Its a new set of eyes on the situation who can make a proper assessment, find out why he is doing a lot of the behaviour and put in place a stratergy of training thats going to work because its specific. Thats why I got a Behaviourist in for Kobi, Trainers were telling me his "dominant" instinct told me that yes he maybe pushing his luck and boundaries at times dont they all but, there was a lot more to it.
So we got a Behaviourist, and that was the turning point,most of his was all stress/fear based.

So Im really glad that you have decided on a One to One with a behaviourist.
Please though if they sprout about dominance theory and are the jerk em about sort run a mile. If Im right about Coops behaviour and a lot is so like Kobis was it could well be, then someone like that will make him ten times worse.

Cant remember if I have given you this link before but For a Behaviourist 
CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers For a Trainer Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK
Some want a vet refferal which all you need to do is speak to your vet, your vet might even have a reccomended behaviourist, but ask what bodies they belong to before contacting. They are not cheap granted, but honesstly get the right one who you also need to have a rapport and be comfortable with too btw (some trainers can tend to be a bit up themselves and talk down to people which personally winds me up and I couldnt work with) it will be the best money you have ever spent when you start to see the difference.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I think you need to get in a decent behaviourist and trainer. Not necessarily one you vet recommends as that means nothing. A lot of good advice has been given on this thread but it's no substitute for having someone assessing his behaviour. He's a 60lb dog now but in 6 months time he will probably be a 120lb dog and then your problems will be magnified. With a breed like this you really have to nip things in the bud.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sorry haven't replied today, had a busy morning and then a headache from hell this afternoon, i couldn't read text messages let alone read through this forum. Thanks for all the advice, i had planned to spend this afternoon sorting out a behaviourist, i will definately sort one this week, i will check the link SDH put on and if the behaviouist i have lined up isn't on there i may go elsewhere. Cooper has been fine today, been good with the kids too.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Sorry haven't replied today, had a busy morning and then a headache from hell this afternoon, i couldn't read text messages let alone read through this forum. Thanks for all the advice, i had planned to spend this afternoon sorting out a behaviourist, i will definately sort one this week, i will check the link SDH put on and if the behaviouist i have lined up isn't on there i may go elsewhere. Cooper has been fine today, been good with the kids too.


I honestly do think its the best bet, I dont regret getting one for a minute with Kobi it was deffinately the turning point honestly. Once you know why he does the things he does at times and you get an understanding its so much easier, and then you can go forward and do the right sort of tailor made training and behaviour modification. Its clear at times I think you are still worried about his behaviour, at least it wont be no more wondering and worrying. My only regret was I didnt get one in sooner and it went on for as long as it did. Keep us posted.

PS typical the little [email protected] has been fine today isnt it I suppose his been an angel. Thats dogs for you!!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I honestly do think its the best bet, I dont regret getting one for a minute with Kobi it was deffinately the turning point honestly. Once you know why he does the things he does at times and you get an understanding its so much easier, and then you can go forward and do the right sort of tailor made training and behaviour modification. Its clear at times I think you are still worried about his behaviour, at least it wont be no more wondering and worrying. My only regret was I didnt get one in sooner and it went on for as long as it did. Keep us posted.
> 
> PS typical the little [email protected] has been fine today isnt it I suppose his been an angel. Thats dogs for you!!


We will definately get 1 in now, im sure the behaviorist at the vet was £30 a session which less than i thought.

Was hoovering earlier and he was hovering about, i kept some ham on the banister and threw him small bits whilst hoovering. I was feeling ill this afternoon and he just napped with me

Oh and just to make things worse, our house is a network of stairgates, we are now going to try be more consistant with his training and are not allowing him out the front of the house when we are getting in and out of the car, to prevent this as we are carrying the kids out we put him behind a stairgate in the kitchen. He can now clear the stairgate and bursts through the door, this morning cooper got out and ran down the road after the postman, the postman looked terrified but luckily Cooper is generally friendly with people and said hello and came back, but besides the point, we now need a dog gate


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> We will definately get 1 in now, im sure the behaviorist at the vet was £30 a session which less than i thought.
> 
> Was hoovering earlier and he was hovering about, i kept some ham on the banister and threw him small bits whilst hoovering. I was feeling ill this afternoon and he just napped with me
> 
> Oh and just to make things worse, our house is a network of stairgates, we are now going to try be more consistant with his training and are not allowing him out the front of the house when we are getting in and out of the car, to prevent this as we are carrying the kids out we put him behind a stairgate in the kitchen. He can now clear the stairgate and bursts through the door, this morning cooper got out and ran down the road after the postman, the postman looked terrified but luckily Cooper is generally friendly with people and said hello and came back, but besides the point, we now need a dog gate


I think my friend got a dog control gate in Argos you might get one cheaper in there. It does seem with him his behaviour is in certain situations from what you have said, which was the same with Kobi.

The fact that he doesnt like hoovers and hairdryers does seem to point to the fact that possibly being raised outside until he come home with you he may never have encountered one. Maybe with all the things in the house he encountered at once and then all the problems outside in an urban area with traffic he is always in a slightly stressed state. This is what happened with Kobi, if they never relax completely and then things send them over threshold then that when you get the behaviour like you saw the other day. Im not saying its always the case 100% of the time, because like the Mals Im willing to bet as I said before the old DDBs will push and see what they can get away with, but it could well be the case.

Dont know if you saw this I posted awhile ago, Its called the Puppy plan explains all about what socialisation they should have had from the start and then from 8 weeks in their new homes and the sience behind it. You can download at the end of the breeder and early caregiver section and the new owner section a plan for all the socialising too llate now because it is an 16 week plan from birth, but you might be interested in it in general. It something that the Dogs Trust and Kennel club have launched to raise awareness and because I assume little or no early socialisation does have such a knock on effect behavioural wise as the pup gets older.
The Puppy Plan


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

redginald said:


> We will definately get 1 in now, im sure the behaviorist at the vet was £30 a session which less than i thought.
> 
> Was hoovering earlier and he was hovering about, i kept some ham on the banister and threw him small bits whilst hoovering. I was feeling ill this afternoon and he just napped with me
> 
> Oh and just to make things worse, our house is a network of stairgates, we are now going to try be more consistant with his training and are not allowing him out the front of the house when we are getting in and out of the car, to prevent this as we are carrying the kids out we put him behind a stairgate in the kitchen. *He can now clear the stairgate and bursts through the door, this morning cooper got out and ran down the road after the postman, the postman looked terrified but luckily Cooper is generally friendly with people and said hello and came back, but besides the point, we now need a dog gate*


you know i did take one of my doors off and have a carpenter make a gate to seperate my kitchen from my dining room when we are cooking and then eating  may be an idea rather than a safety gate ? i`ve found safety gates were far too flimsy for large dogs plus mine couldn`t jump that or go through it as it`s metal centred much to the shock of my dogs lmao!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

diablo said:


> you know i did take one of my doors off and have a carpenter make a gate to seperate my kitchen from my dining room when we are cooking and then eating  may be an idea rather than a safety gate ? i`ve found safety gates were far too flimsy for large dogs plus mine couldn`t jump that or go through it as it`s metal centred much to the shock of my dogs lmao!


Looks an idea!!, he wont cross the gates normally, iv'e been putting him out in the kitchen all evening because he keeps mouthing (I think the reason we have been slack is he mouths us alot but doesn't really nip anymore, it does't hurt but it's not the point teeth on skin is NO NO again) he will cry and whine but won't jump, if we are leaving the house he just climbs over the gate!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Scrap those last posts, he jumps over the stairgate all the time now


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

redginald said:


> Scrap those last posts, he jumps over the stairgate all the time now


call a carpenter to remove a door and make a sturdy tall gate he cannot get through or over , i tell you , was the best thing i ever invested in. he won`t jump or get through anything like the one i have which is in the pic i posted up for you. i paid £35 quid which was `mates rates` but i wouldn`t think it would cost a lot more if you provided your own materials


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Scrap those last posts, he jumps over the stairgate all the time now


Oh dear, unfortunately once they have done it and know they can, then they do and will caryy on, Siberians are the same once they know they can jump and how high, I suppose any dog does.

Deffinately time to up the security, If he is still growing rapidly too it probably wont do his hips and joints a lot of good either.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I think, personally, it is reasonable. Dogs don't just snap and bite for the hell of it. Either you haven't picked up the signals earlier, or something has made the behaviour even more acute recently. Head collars should always be habituated to the dog, and when the dog snaps and bites, you should leave it until you can properly habituate it. By him biting he is being negatively reinforced, and thus the behaviour will become more predictable and common.



smokeybear said:


> I am sorry but statement such as " _Cooper is a grumpy sod_" and "_His Lips turn to a snarl at the hoover, Hairdryer, wet wipes, floor wipes aswell"_ indicate future problems to me.
> 
> This behaviour at 22 weeks presage trouble ahead.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I don't think you know enough about the dog to say the behaviour isn't acceptable. Considering at 22 weeks the dog's hazard-avoidance behaviour has been onset for quite a while now, I would say its perfectly normal behaviour, if the dog has been exposed to a considerably negative experience.


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

I have stable doors going into my utility room where the dog food is and i prepare their food and the cats have their dry food and cat flap in the door to the garden also into my bedroom because i didnt want all the dogs in with me but i hated the idea of shutting them away from me and when old Kez needed a wee in the night i could hear her potter to the door. Maybe something like this would help you as when i had them i had a very determined old Leo who would just bash the dog gates down even got someone else to put them up and she could still remove them.She was amazing when there was a chance of food.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

We took the kitchen door of ages ago and skipped it to open the hallway up  iv'e got a chippy mate who might do us a favour!! 

This afternoon i let cooper approach me with ham, i had the collar in my hand he snapped, we eventually got to a point where we could hold the collar against him whilst treating and he accepted it, we didn't put it on him. We don't plan to use a collar on him anymore, we do want to de sensatise him to the collar. I recorded him so we can show the behaviorist, i can move the collar to him with one hand and i'm met with snarls and snaps, i can then immiediettly aproach with the other hand and fuss him around his face and he's not bothered at all.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

redginald said:


> We took the kitchen door of ages ago and skipped it to open the hallway up  iv'e got a chippy mate who might do us a favour!!
> 
> This afternoon i let cooper approach me with ham, i had the collar in my hand he snapped, we eventually got to a point where we could hold the collar against him whilst treating and he accepted it, we didn't put it on him. We don't plan to use a collar on him anymore, we do want to de sensatise him to the collar. I recorded him so we can show the behaviorist, i can move the collar to him with one hand and i'm met with snarls and snaps, i can then immiediettly aproach with the other hand and fuss him around his face and he's not bothered at all.


I would stop experimenting with his behaviour now - the more you trigger a reaction the more he practices the behaviour and the more ingrained it becomes. You need to be making every effort between now and seeing a behaviourist to keep him below threshold, i.e. never seeing the need to snap and snarl. Reward all calm behaviour as often as possible and see a well-qualified behaviourist asap.

From what I can read in your posts it is fire-fighting time with him. The window of opportunity to modify behaviour _easily_ is fast closing and may already be shut. You need professional help with him as soon as it can possibly arranged, in my view.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

No advise to give but I just wanted o say yesterday I discovered how strong a DDB can be.

We were at a show and a friend who has 2 asked me to handle one in the challange for best of breed for her. She didn't tell me to get rid of the bait I had still got in my pocket for Simba. He got a sniff of liver and that was it he just pushed and shuffed me everywere. It was like trying to control an elephant with a strip of leather. 

We did explain to the judge that I had never handled one before and that I was then going to take my own dog into the ring. He aske what that was and I said an iggie. Later he saw me with Buck who is also red and he laughed and said the DDB had shrunk

Seriously get soem profesional help or at the very least someone experienced with the breed. Having handled my friends boy I certainly wouldn't want to meet one of these dogs that has an aggression problem.

Just wanted to add my friends dog is as soft as butter and I have never seen him so energetic as he was with me so much so that I usually call him Brick as I always say I have seen more energy in a brick than in him. This goes back to when he was a pup and nothing would make him trot if he decided he didn't want to and I told her I had seen bricks more lively than he is.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> I would stop experimenting with his behaviour now - the more you trigger a reaction the more he practices the behaviour and the more ingrained it becomes. You need to be making every effort between now and seeing a behaviourist to keep him below threshold, i.e. never seeing the need to snap and snarl. Reward all calm behaviour as often as possible and see a well-qualified behaviourist asap.
> 
> From what I can read in your posts it is fire-fighting time with him. The window of opportunity to modify behaviour _easily_ is fast closing and may already be shut. You need professional help with him as soon as it can possibly arranged, in my view.


ok, won't try it, thought i was supposed to be de sensatising him to it but will leave it now. we have noticed he doesn't snap at my girlfriend when she does it, he snarls, we didn't put it on him anyway but don't think he will bite her??!

I will add the past couple of weeks his "lipstick" has been almost constantly out, and he has a cushion that he insists on dragging into the living room and putting on a sex show every 5 mins??!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

redginald said:


> ok, won't try it, thought i was supposed to be de sensatising him to it but will leave it now. we have noticed he doesn't snap at my girlfriend when she does it, he snarls, we didn't put it on him anyway but don't think he will bite her??!
> 
> I will add the past couple of weeks his "lipstick" has been almost constantly out, and *he has a cushion that he insists on dragging into the living room and putting on a sex show every 5 mins??!*


i`d put a stop to that straight away , take it off him.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

If he is coming towards 6mths now? then hormones and things are going to start kicking in. Its the time also when they can start pusing at boundaries and seeing what they can get away with/ Its often a time when they start to not come back when off lead as well, so I would really watch that now. Then can also from about 6mths up to about 14mths can be any time have another fear period, the fear of the unknown when they do start to react to sights sounds an situations again with uncertainty and even fear. Then can sometimes be teething too also, so around now and the next month or two a lots happening. Doing wrong things in the fear period can cause later problems, lapse on the training can also cause problems too. A lot of people give up around this time when they dont seem to be listening thinking its not working, but you need the training more now then even, and becausse of the fear period element too, its got to be firm but fair and kind handling.

I think tbh now you have decided to get the Behaviourist make it very soon.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Contacted the behaviorist on your list SDH , he said £39 initial 1to1 then classes every week, we can come and go as we need them and they are midweek aswell . This suits as my girlfriend works random days/eves so we will book with him!! He didn't seem that concerned. fingers crossed he gets sorted!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

redginald said:


> ok, won't try it, thought i was supposed to be de sensatising him to it but will leave it now. we have noticed he doesn't snap at my girlfriend when she does it, he snarls, we didn't put it on him anyway but don't think he will bite her??!


Desensitizing involves keeping the dog at a point where it doesn't feel the need to react to the trigger. If your dog is snapping or snarling then he is not under threshold regardless of whether or not you think he'll bite.

If you've got someone coming out I would wait for their help to be honest.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Contacted the behaviorist on your list SDH , he said £39 initial 1to1 then classes every week, we can come and go as we need them and they are midweek aswell . This suits as my girlfriend works random days/eves so we will book with him!! He didn't seem that concerned. fingers crossed he gets sorted!!


Glad you have found one, that you are happy with and will all fit in OK.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Booked for next week!!, hoping this works.


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## theevos5 (Dec 24, 2009)

redginald said:


> Booked for next week!!, hoping this works.


Good luck and keep us updated as to how you get on and what the behaviourist says


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Will do!! He's been pretty chilled out tonight


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Booked for next week!!, hoping this works.


I Blinkin hope it does considering I kept saying get one, you will be blaming me!!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I Blinkin hope it does considering I kept saying get one, you will be blaming me!!


Ha, nope!!, it needs sorting out now, we got to try something!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Ha, nope!!, it needs sorting out now, we got to try something!


Yes it does, my only regret was not getting one sooner for Kobi, Once you can identify the problems and then get a training plan sorted thats tailor made Im sure you will see a big difference quickly. Sometimes it gets to a point where its too close to home, if that makes sense and you need a fresh set of eyes on the problem. It can get too intense and you miss things sometimes. My behaviourist was fantastic, and over the years since Ive contacted her a couple of times to ask her opinion here and there, and I often have a Doh moment. You forget a lot of stuff too over time and sometimes the old brain needs a bit of a jiggle to get it in gear.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

i will agree with that - we have 5 ddbs ranging from 14 weeks to three years old and they are all totally different although well behaved 2 are rescues one had never ever been on a lead untill we got him but within 2 weeks we had him walking just fine and intergrated with our 7 dogs 
our two litter sisters are as different as chalk and cheese in personality Spooks is placid calm and submissive her sister Narca well if she was in school she wold be on full time detention or in a special class for naughty kids she is stubborn but in her own way always wanting to be at the front always last to sit for anything ( she can do it she just wants to do it in her time ) 
We just got a boy ddb ( our final one ) age 14 weeks and last night he slept in my room through the night without a wimper not even wanting to get up to go to the toilet, his tempermant so far (ok only 24 hrs ) is unbeliveable for a young pup

But despite having 7 dogs in total who all live, eat and walk together we havnt had any probs like yours with Copper. I definatly think its time to bring in the specialist who know more than us 
hes growing up and hes gonna be a big boy in a few months and big stroppy douge with attitude is not good



diablo said:


> is cooper your first dogue de bordeaux ? i`ll think you`ll find talking to different breeders that their temperaments can vary and i think it`s really important that all research shouldn`t be carried out on the internet and from reading books , while all these things are helpful , nothing more educational than speaking to different people who have years of experience with the breed , dogues go through different stages while they are growing because they are such a fast growing breed which is why socialization is so important with such large dogs , their bodies may tell you otherwise but their brains aren`t mature.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Had the behaviorist visit today, think it went well. he's set a few boundaries, cooper is no longer allowed upstairs. He's advised on a feeder like the big kong 1 you can get to keep him amused, he's said not to feed him with the bowl and to use a feeder game instead and to use it to our advantage. As far as the biting goes he has basically echoed what has been said on here, he's got us to try and de sensatise him to the head collar, lots of time with the collar and lots of treats, he's advised on doing this with alot of things, ie collar grabs followed by treats. he's also echoed the 0 tolerance on teeth on skin and has warned he may get a little worse as he hits 6 months and adolescense. He's said he understands it's difficult with young kids about and told us if we are too busy to spend training time for whatever reason to keep the kids and him apart until we can really focus. He belived Coopers workable, he promotes only reward based training and has said 100% don't punish him for growling etc, if he growls it gives us something to work with, we can work on de sensatising him to the causes of his snarling etc. Im happier now, he's said any questions and he will advise by phone if possible and we will be going to lessons aswell


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad it worked out of and that it wil also be ongoing. Hope you feel a little easier now too.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Glad it worked out of and that it wil also be ongoing. Hope you feel a little easier now too.


much better, cheers for the list!! Alot was straight forward stuff but was good to be shown exactly what to do and why. he even advised to gently condition to the odd gentle ear pull etc and seems a good idea!! better get a kong wobbler now, he said it should help stimulate him, wear him out a bit, and if we want to keep him seperate from kids for a bit it makes sitting in the hallway "fun"! I did ask him if our dog was a "Nutter"!!  , he said he's just a pup he can be sorted


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> much better, cheers for the list!! Alot was straight forward stuff but was good to be shown exactly what to do and why. he even advised to gently condition to the odd gentle ear pull etc and seems a good idea!! better get a kong wobbler now, he said it should help stimulate him, wear him out a bit, and if we want to keep him seperate from kids for a bit it makes sitting in the hallway "fun"! I did ask him if our dog was a "Nutter"!!  , he said he's just a pup he can be sorted


Its amazing isnt it things stare you in the face and you just cant see it and then someone comes along and points it out, suppose its like I said before you can be too close to the problem at times to see it, thats what I found too, I had a few Doh moments with my behaviourist. Its great when you get one you can really work with too.

Kongs are deffinately worth their weight in gold withought a doubt, I should imagine many an owner has escaped insanity with the use of a Kong. The story how they were discovered too is pretty funny, dont know if you know a Dog "discovered them". It was the guys german shepherd who had a terrible habit for eating stones and chewing rocks, one day he was dismantling I think it was either his motor bike or car in the 70s and the dog found a rubber part of the suspension irresistible and started playing with it. Apparently the rock and stone fettish stopped, and the guy developed the toy from there. The number of Kongs sold worldwide since I should think turned the guy into a pretty wealthy man too.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Its amazing isnt it things stare you in the face and you just cant see it and then someone comes along and points it out, suppose its like I said before you can be too close to the problem at times to see it, thats what I found too, I had a few Doh moments with my behaviourist. Its great when you get one you can really work with too.
> 
> Kongs are deffinately worth their weight in gold withought a doubt, I should imagine many an owner has escaped insanity with the use of a Kong. The story how they were discovered too is pretty funny, dont know if you know a Dog "discovered them". It was the guys german shepherd who had a terrible habit for eating stones and chewing rocks, one day he was dismantling I think it was either his motor bike or car in the 70s and the dog found a rubber part of the suspension irresistible and started playing with it. Apparently the rock and stone fettish stopped, and the guy developed the toy from there. The number of Kongs sold worldwide since I should think turned the guy into a pretty wealthy man too.


Some of the things really made sense, sometimes when your not 100% sure if what your doing is right its hard to commit fully! I got the wobbler today and been trying to get him to use it but he's a bit simple and will watch me rock it and food come out and will then just sit and look at me and the wobbler blank ! I've put this evenings food in it but he's just given up. he just went outside and brought in a lump of hard poo and dropped it on the floor, i think he's telling us he's hungry any tips?

Bought him a new collar today too and he snarled when i swapped them i took it slow and fed him some cheese and he got it on ok!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Some of the things really made sense, sometimes when your not 100% sure if what your doing is right its hard to commit fully! I got the wobbler today and been trying to get him to use it but he's a bit simple and will watch me rock it and food come out and will then just sit and look at me and the wobbler blank ! I've put this evenings food in it but he's just given up. he just went outside and brought in a lump of hard poo and dropped it on the floor, i think he's telling us he's hungry any tips?
> 
> Bought him a new collar today too and he snarled when i swapped them i took it slow and fed him some cheese and he got it on ok!


How about smearing a thin coating of peanut butter or cheese spread over it on the outside, as he tries to lick it and paw it about to get the stuff on the outside
I should think it would rock about and the stuff should fall out so that might help him to get the concept maybe.

Maybe hes trying to tell you what he thinks of you making him work for his dinner

Sounds like although he may have had a grumble you did Ok with the collar by the sounds of it.

If you were told to make him work for his dinner dont know if one of these may be worth mentioning to the behaviourist to see if these might be any good inbetween
Buster DogMaze - YouTube


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> How about smearing a thin coating of peanut butter or cheese spread over it on the outside, as he tries to lick it and paw it about to get the stuff on the outside
> I should think it would rock about and the stuff should fall out so that might help him to get the concept maybe.
> 
> Maybe hes trying to tell you what he thinks of you making him work for his dinner
> ...


Last Friday he had been in the garden and followed me upstairs before i went to bed, he was on the landing and i sat on the stairs to talk to him, he then spewed what can only be described as runny crap from his mouth everywhere, he went on to do it a couple of times in the night, think he had eaten poo he hasn't since and don't know why he did he's fed a decent dove food.

That maze is a good idea , may get 1 for kids at Halloween , less mess than apple bobbing !!

The trainer didn't say we had to use a Kong wobbler just any kind of puzzle feeder, hopefully he will get the hang of it!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Last Friday he had been in the garden and followed me upstairs before i went to bed, he was on the landing and i sat on the stairs to talk to him, he then spewed what can only be described as runny crap from his mouth everywhere, he went on to do it a couple of times in the night, think he had eaten poo he hasn't since and don't know why he did he's fed a decent dove food.
> 
> That maze is a good idea , may get 1 for kids at Halloween , less mess than apple bobbing !!
> 
> The trainer didn't say we had to use a Kong wobbler just any kind of puzzle feeder, hopefully he will get the hang of it!


Maybe try putting a smear of something on the outside to see if it encourages him.The Kong I mean. Maybe he ate cat poop do any get in the garden. For some reason a lot of dogs cant resist cat poop. Or fox poop lthough they tend to roll in that more then eat it.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Maybe try putting a smear of something on the outside to see if it encourages him.The Kong I mean. Maybe he ate cat poop do any get in the garden. For some reason a lot of dogs cant resist cat poop. Or fox poop lthough they tend to roll in that more then eat it.


Next door have a cat, didn't know they had one for years because of the dog. he doesn't come in our garden let alone poo in it!! it was vile .

trying the peanut butter now seems to be working !


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Next door have a cat, didn't know they had one for years because of the dog. he doesn't come in our garden let alone poo in it!! it was vile .
> 
> trying the peanut butter now seems to be working !


Yey thought that might get him licking and pawing at it to try to get hold of it and in the process knock it about enough to release the food. Hopefully he should realise now thats how you do it. Even if for the first few times you have to put the peanut butter on it for enouragement.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Coops getting used to the wobbler but struggling to get a full meal from it, anybody think an xxl kong would be an easier altrrnative?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Coops getting used to the wobbler but struggling to get a full meal from it, anybody think an xxl kong would be an easier altrrnative?


I would perhaps try that instead, or you could give him a few easy handfuls here and there to make sure he is not lacking perhaps. what is he fed on just dry?


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I would perhaps try that instead, or you could give him a few easy handfuls here and there to make sure he is not lacking perhaps. what is he fed on just dry?


Hes just fed kibble, the behaviorist advised the big black kong as a toy also, (he has a large puppy one) having looked at the xxl black kong it would no doubt be too big for him st present but could imagine it would be needed when adult sized. i was thinking could get the xxl now and use it to feed a meal or 2 a day as an alternative to the wobbler as its easier to use. This eve hes been throwing it about and seems to be getting the hang of it, hes not managed to empty it yet though


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Hes just fed kibble, the behaviorist advised the big black kong as a toy also, (he has a large puppy one) having looked at the xxl black kong it would no doubt be too big for him st present but could imagine it would be needed when adult sized. i was thinking could get the xxl now and use it to feed a meal or 2 a day as an alternative to the wobbler as its easier to use. This eve hes been throwing it about and seems to be getting the hang of it, hes not managed to empty it yet though


That maybe the best idea give him some in the wobbler so he has to work really hard and some in the other Kong that he still has to work at but not quite so hard perhaps.

Mind you the kong classic ones have quite a big hole so would think you would have to use something else as well to make it stay in there. How about a buster cube those you fill with kibble and you can set to make it harder or easier
The New Buster Cube - YouTube


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> That maybe the best idea give him some in the wobbler so he has to work really hard and some in the other Kong that he still has to work at but not quite so hard perhaps.
> 
> Mind you the kong classic ones have quite a big hole so would think you would have to use something else as well to make it stay in there. How about a buster cube those you fill with kibble and you can set to make it harder or easier
> The New Buster Cube - YouTube


Dont know if that cubes a bit too similar to the wobbler?, is there anything i could mix with the kibble like cream cheese to keep the kibble in the kong, but not too unhealthy as he would be eating alot of it daily


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Kong do a squirty treat you could use. You could also put a bit of wet food at the bottom, then kibble and then wet so he is just eating food rather than treats.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> Kong do a squirty treat you could use. You could also put a bit of wet food at the bottom, then kibble and then wet so he is just eating food rather than treats.


Good shout!, will see how he gets on tomorrow otherwise looks like another visit to pets at home!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Dont know if that cubes a bit too similar to the wobbler?, is there anything i could mix with the kibble like cream cheese to keep the kibble in the kong, but not too unhealthy as he would be eating alot of it daily


Best thing would probably be a good quality wet food to hold it all together, Nature Diet in the trays woul be pretty good. You would only need to mix in enough to hold it together and wedge it in. The Buster cube you can set it to hard or easy unlike the Wobbler.

Kobi when he was young had one of these they are good for kibble and you can made them really easy or hard, he used to love his one, and it survived for nanuq to use.
Busy Buddy Twist-n-Treat - YouTube

I found this one too not used this one but this looks fairly easy.
Kibble Nibble - YouTube


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Put some lovely raw mince in his kong, freeze it and give him something decent with no additives or grains in it - he'll thank you for ever. 
The kong paste is vile gooy stuff and goodness knows what artificial crap it has in it! You can also freeze natural yogurt for him to lick, add fruit in it too for extra taste.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Best thing would probably be a good quality wet food to hold it all together, Nature Diet in the trays woul be pretty good. You would only need to mix in enough to hold it together and wedge it in. The Buster cube you can set it to hard or easy unlike the Wobbler.
> 
> Kobi when he was young had one of these they are good for kibble and you can made them really easy or hard, he used to love his one, and it survived for nanuq to use.
> Busy Buddy Twist-n-Treat - YouTube
> ...





Malmum said:


> Put some lovely raw mince in his kong, freeze it and give him something decent with no additives or grains in it - he'll thank you for ever.
> The kong paste is vile gooy stuff and goodness knows what artificial crap it has in it! You can also freeze natural yogurt for him to lick, add fruit in it too for extra taste.


He ate a whole meal from it so looks to be getting the hang of it, will give these ideas a whirl too


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Best thing would probably be a good quality wet food to hold it all together, Nature Diet in the trays woul be pretty good. You would only need to mix in enough to hold it together and wedge it in. The Buster cube you can set it to hard or easy unlike the Wobbler.
> 
> Kobi when he was young had one of these they are good for kibble and you can made them really easy or hard, he used to love his one, and it survived for nanuq to use.
> Busy Buddy Twist-n-Treat - YouTube
> ...





Malmum said:


> Put some lovely raw mince in his kong, freeze it and give him something decent with no additives or grains in it - he'll thank you for ever.
> The kong paste is vile gooy stuff and goodness knows what artificial crap it has in it! You can also freeze natural yogurt for him to lick, add fruit in it too for extra taste.


He ate a whole meal from it so looks to be getting the hang of it, will give these ideas a whirl too


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Coop got in the living room last night at bed time, i went down and he growled as i lead him out. He slipped his neck collar, of course when i went to put it on he behaved as if it was a head collar. I got a handfull of treats and got it on him but was greated with a few "softish" bites, i took it off and put it back on a few times and kept treating him. Tonight my girlfriend managed to get his HEADCOLLAR on him, it was a bit of a struggle with treats but once on we fed him loads of cheese and i let him eat kibble from my hands, we then took it off and i walked him on a normal lead. i attempted to get his headcollar on, i had some steak, i didn't corner him, i called him to me and he approached but would back off as the head collar approached his nose. He then (wasn't cornered) rolled onto his back and i chucked some steak n his gob and got the coller on, treated him lots and took it off. I tried it a couple of times again, he lets you get closer now if treats are on offer, but if i try and hook it on his nose he will open his mouth and bite and paw at the coller and me. The biting isn't painful and almost seems like the biting you get when play fighting a mouthy dog but dont believe its play. now he doesn't seem quite as aggitatted when you approach with the collar, you can touch the collar on him without as much snarling and lip rolling but as soon as he senses you are going to put it on he opens his mouth and becomes defensive. It seems to be helping, but it's hard to judge how far i should push it, even when it's on we treat him then release him. i did just manage to take his normal collar on and off a couple of times without much fuss but he started biting on the 3rd.

If you were doing this with your dog if he bit you (not painfully) how would you react? ive been saying No and trying to calmly continue, i may back off a little and let him sniff the coller again and treat but it's hard to tell whats the right thing to do. If i gave up at every bite, or timed him out i don't think i would make any progress. i can throw the collar on the floor and he will sit with it and i could throw treats at him all night, but i know every time i go to put it around his face he will bite me however gentle it may be


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I know a few Mal owners who would say any form of biting is totally unacceptable regardless of how gentle and I would agree - with a Mal. With a DDB however I have no idea what their temperaments are like in general so cannot advise at all as not experienced enough.

With the Mals even as pups mouthing was met with a very loud "OI!" and that worked with them. I think we have been lucky though as these guys have never challenged us, even food can be taken from them with no reaction. You know my thoughts on difficult dogs and what I see as bribery. If it works all well and good but sometimes expert help is needed, preferably from within your particular breed. Is there a forum specific to DDB's you could ask advice on or the breed club?

ETA - found this: http://www.armbell.com/ddbforum/


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I must admit in the photos he doesnt altogether look thrilled with having the head collar on, he doesnt exactly allude happiness does he?

I dont want to interfer with your behaviourists instructions and I know he said de-sensitise to the normal collar as in holding it, and the head collar using treats whch yes you really need too, but Im just wondering if the whole thing in one go is too much for coops at the moment.

If it was me I would break it down and do a bit at a time, and when he is happy with one bit, then move on to the next. A dog not liking something and protesting is one thing if it gets a phobia then thats really a problem.

This is what I would do as regards to the collar grabs, starting when he is relaxed, maybe sitting with you having a stroke or a massage so his chilled
touch the collar at first no more, a gentle touch treat touch treat, no more then this, just so he gets used to the hand going to it. When he is relaxed about that get say one finger under it treat, then two then three so until you can hold the collar with your hand under it like you would to lead him, but no more at that stage, Next step I would try is to gently lead, but use a really tasty treat as bait, so he follows the treat with his nose, as you are gently leading with your hand under the collar too, but you shouldnt need pressure as he is really following the "bait" and moving freely. This I would try and build up over several days as long as it takes really until he is relaxed with each stage.The final will be reaching for the collar and holding and leading it all in one go with him relaxed'

Same with the head collar, but say put your hand through the nose loop with a really high value treat in your hand, and use the treat as bait so hopefully he will put his head forward to get it and work your way to putting the nose loop over his nose an then take it off, hopefully working up to he almost puts his own nose in it. Then work up to doing up the one behind the neck to another day, and then undoing it again almost straight away at first. then doing it up and leaving it for longer whilst praising and feeding treats.

Sorry its long winded be dam quicker to show you what I mean. Hopefully you know what Im trying to say.

Initially you need to start when he is relaxed and make it a game.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

redginald said:


> Coop got in the living room last night at bed time, i went down and he growled as i lead him out. He slipped his neck collar, of course when i went to put it on he behaved as if it was a head collar. I got a handfull of treats and got it on him but was greated with a few "softish" bites, i took it off and put it back on a few times and kept treating him.


Did you need to grab his collar? did you try calling him in a happy voice, offer a quick game with his favourite toy? If he slipped his collar i get the impression you were dragging him. I personally never drag a dog by the collar, to me a collar is the place i attach a tag and a lead and the lead is a safety belt not a steering wheel!



redginald said:


> Tonight my girlfriend managed to get his HEADCOLLAR on him, it was a bit of a struggle with treats but once on we fed him loads of cheese and i let him eat kibble from my hands, we then took it off and i walked him on a normal lead. i attempted to get his headcollar on, i had some steak, i didn't corner him, i called him to me and he approached but would back off as the head collar approached his nose. He then (wasn't cornered) rolled onto his back and i chucked some steak n his gob and got the coller on, treated him lots and took it off. I tried it a couple of times again, he lets you get closer now if treats are on offer, but if i try and hook it on his nose he will open his mouth and bite and paw at the coller and me. The biting isn't painful and almost seems like the biting you get when play fighting a mouthy dog but dont believe its play. now he doesn't seem quite as aggitatted when you approach with the collar, you can touch the collar on him without as much snarling and lip rolling but as soon as he senses you are going to put it on he opens his mouth and becomes defensive. It seems to be helping, but it's hard to judge how far i should push it, even when it's on we treat him then release him. i did just manage to take his normal collar on and off a couple of times without much fuss but he started biting on the 3rd.
> 
> If you were doing this with your dog if he bit you (not painfully) how would you react? ive been saying No and trying to calmly continue, i may back off a little and let him sniff the coller again and treat but it's hard to tell whats the right thing to do. If i gave up at every bite, or timed him out i don't think i would make any progress. i can throw the collar on the floor and he will sit with it and i could throw treats at him all night, but i know every time i go to put it around his face he will bite me however gentle it may be


Personally i'd forget trying to get the headcollar on him for now ( i'm still not convinced it's appropriate at his age).

I think it's of greater importance to get him comfortable with his normal collar being handled, held put on and removed. in the first session I'd start by doing a few things he can do and do well ( sit, down etc) to get him feeling confident then move on to touching his collar with my fingertips and treating him if he doesn't react negatively, then return to the other things and leave it there... lots of positive baby steps. building up to being able to hold, remove and put on his collar of a week or weeks. All training sessions kept short. If he does it well stop dont' repeat until he fails.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I know a few Mal owners who would say any form of biting is totally unacceptable regardless of how gentle and I would agree - with a Mal. With a DDB however I have no idea what their temperaments are like in general so cannot advise at all as not experienced enough.
> 
> With the Mals even as pups mouthing was met with a very loud "OI!" and that worked with them. I think we have been lucky though as these guys have never challenged us, even food can be taken from them with no reaction. You know my thoughts on difficult dogs and what I see as bribery. If it works all well and good but sometimes expert help is needed, preferably from within your particular breed. Is there a forum specific to DDB's you could ask advice on or the breed club?
> 
> ETA - found this: Dogue de Bordeaux Forums :: Index


Going to check this forum out cheers!


Sled dog hotel said:


> I must admit in the photos he doesnt altogether look thrilled with having the head collar on, he doesnt exactly allude happiness does he?
> 
> I dont want to interfer with your behaviourists instructions and I know he said de-sensitise to the normal collar as in holding it, and the head collar using treats whch yes you really need too, but Im just wondering if the whole thing in one go is too much for coops at the moment.
> 
> ...


Yep think ive been getting a bit carried away with it, it's difficult, if i persavere when he bites am i teaching him that biting is acceptable?, but then if i back off am i teaching him biting gets what he wants?? forgetting the headcollar, i want my dog not to feel biting is an option when uncomfortable, im sure given time we an de sensatise him to the collar, but am i not still left with a dog that would bite if he developed a fear of something else. I feel like de sensatising him to the collar is just sweeping the problem ( HE FEAR BITES) under the carpet


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Going to check this forum out cheers!
> 
> Yep think ive been getting a bit carried away with it, it's difficult, if i persavere when he bites am i teaching him that biting is acceptable?, but then if i back off am i teaching him biting gets what he wants?? forgetting the headcollar, i want my dog not to feel biting is an option when uncomfortable, im sure given time we an de sensatise him to the collar, but am i not still left with a dog that would bite if he developed a fear of something else. I feel like de sensatising him to the collar is just sweeping the problem ( HE FEAR BITES) under the carpet


When Kobi was at his worse, if he had anything he shouldnt if you tried to put drops in his eyes, so something he didnt like the head would come round and he would snap and snarl. A stressed dog if that is the reason he is doing it like Kobi was will bite. The idea is that you work within his threshold you dont provoke him to be so stressed or fearful of whatever, he doesnt feel the need to have too snap and snarl. The idea is that you get him to accept and feel happy about what you are trying to do to him, and that he will comply with what you ask as its more rewarding. Also you are constantly training too, reward based training, you ask him to sit, you praise him and he gets a treat, or whatever the praise and the treat is initially the incentive for wanting to do it and the re-enforcer when he has with contiuning repetitions, it becomes a conditioned response to the command, and eventually praise should be enough reward.

Hope this makes sense its getting late and I tend to waffle and the brain doesnt co-ordinate. What Im also trying to say is that you allround build a relationship where he wants to work for you, you want him to do as you ask, without a challenge and a battle about things.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Did you need to grab his collar? did you try calling him in a happy voice, offer a quick game with his favourite toy? If he slipped his collar i get the impression you were dragging him. I personally never drag a dog by the collar, to me a collar is the place i attach a tag and a lead and the lead is a safety belt not a steering wheel!
> 
> Personally i'd forget trying to get the headcollar on him for now ( i'm still not convinced it's appropriate at his age).
> 
> I think it's of greater importance to get him comfortable with his normal collar being handled, held put on and removed. in the first session I'd start by doing a few things he can do and do well ( sit, down etc) to get him feeling confident then move on to touching his collar with my fingertips and treating him if he doesn't react negatively, then return to the other things and leave it there... lots of positive baby steps. building up to being able to hold, remove and put on his collar of a week or weeks. All training sessions kept short. If he does it well stop dont' repeat until he fails.





Sled dog hotel said:


> When Kobi was at his worse, if he had anything he shouldnt if you tried to put drops in his eyes, so something he didnt like the head would come round and he would snap and snarl. A stressed dog if that is the reason he is doing it like Kobi was will bite. The idea is that you work within his threshold you dont provoke him to be so stressed or fearful of whatever, he doesnt feel the need to have too snap and snarl. The idea is that you get him to accept and feel happy about what you are trying to do to him, and that he will comply with what you ask as its more rewarding. Also you are constantly training too, reward based training, you ask him to sit, you praise him and he gets a treat, or whatever the praise and the treat is initially the incentive for wanting to do it and the re-enforcer when he has with contiuning repetitions, it becomes a conditioned response to the command, and eventually praise should be enough reward.
> 
> Hope this makes sense its getting late and I tend to waffle and the brain doesnt co-ordinate. What Im also trying to say is that you allround build a relationship where he wants to work for you, you want him to do as you ask, without a challenge and a battle about things.


I may leave the headcollar to just letting him sniff etc but wont put it on him for a while, i kind of know how he will react so suppose i'm setting him up to fail.

Everything else should be less stressful, i will every now and again take his neck coller off and on but will only do it once ( i see what you mean, i won't do it 3 times thus meaning he gets fed up and fails)

I almost instantly/naturally grab a ollar when he doesn't do as he's told and "steer" him so will try reduce it, think we need a few pots of treats scattered about to make it a bit easier. ( he jumped over the stairgate to get into the living room)

Ive just raised the stirgate a few inches from the floor to stop him getting over, My girlfriend has almost broken her foot and iv'e almost gone cartwheeling through the living room a few times, got some training of my own to do i think


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

You may laugh but yes you do have to train yourself too, you need to start thinking like a dog would. Or think how the kids react when they get medicine they dont like or dont want to take they turn their heads away and if you get it in they spit it out, if you try to force it down they get even worse, so next time you get the bottle out they go into one straight away at the sight of the bottle.
where if you perhaps say they can have sweets or a toy if they have all the medicine and they still might not be chuffed maybe but they at least take it without too much fuss and you having them in a headlock So your not so stressed their not stressed and life is much better. Dont know if its a good analogy or not but I hope you get what I think Im trying to say


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Just got timed out of the dogue forum got the stupid verify code wrong  ........3 times:angry: was just reading something on the Mollosser forum will copy it over 
Yesterday while I was in work my dogue growled at my brother in law.
My wifes brother was in my house visiting my wife and kids. (kids are 12years, 17months and 4months)
Things were a bit hectic and my son was excited with his uncle in the house, so my wife decided that Juno (2yo neutered DDB bitch) be sent to bed until the toddler is calmed down. 
Juno's bed is off the kitchen in a small storeage room.
Juno was laying on the kitchen floor so my wife gave the command ''bed'', normaly Juno gets up and heads into her bed, sometimes slowly and reluctantly but always into bed.
But this time she point blank refused, so my wife gave the command again, no reaction.
Next my wife gave her a light kick on the rear and said bed. She didnt move just turned and looked back up at my wife.
Then my wife asked her brother to put the dog into bed. He took her by her collar and she sat up, he moved towards her bed pulling slightly on the collar. Juno turned her mouth to him and growled.
He then forceably pulled on the collar and said BED, she then moved to bed with him still holding the lead.

I do not know what to make of this.

It is not as if he is a stranger to her.
He visits regularly and only 3 weeks ago he stayed in my house looking after the dog while we were away on holiday.

I'm also worried about the dogs lack of respect to my wifes command.She has also at times been slow to follow my commands

What about my kids. 
The toddler is into everything now and the last thing I want is to bring him or anyone to hospital after the dog snapps and then dog to the vet to be PTS !

Any suggestions please on what is going on here ?

REPLY

First of All you both are lucky You didn't get your brother in law Bit! IMO-A dog owner should Never have someone outside the home to correct one's dog. 
Better idea is to have your wife grab treat in a pleasant voice say come on Juno, she will then follow.

Who feeds Juno? Who walks her currently? One thing your wife should be doing to help ensure the dog will listen is practise o.b. commands and break off small food rewards and make it a fun experience. I think your dog was like Wait...I'm sitting here...Doing Nothing and Now I'm Getting Sent to My Room....This Isn't Fair...And Now This guy is Grabbing Me??? Yeah, Right....Grrrrrrrrr.......
*You have a Mastiff this is common.*


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

This is what I was trying to say its a whole package to work on rather then entering a battle over each incident, with the right ongoing training and work, the dog will work willingly.

When I had my behaviourist we really got on great and talked in general about dogs and training, she had started well over twenty probably nearer 25 years before, she said when she started first thinking about going into training and behaviour,it used to be choke chains and yanking and do as I say, they even used to string dogs up, she said it sickened her and she thought there has to be a better way then this.

I know what I would rather have.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

It might be worth training yourself to stop thinking "I am going to get Cooper to do this" and try to adopt the attitude "How am I going to get Cooper to want to do this." It really is a more fun way of training and being with your dog.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This is what I was trying to say its a whole package to work on rather then entering a battle over each incident, with the right ongoing training and work, the dog will work willingly.
> 
> When I had my behaviourist we really got on great and talked in general about dogs and training, she had started well over twenty probably nearer 25 years before, she said when she started first thinking about going into training and behaviour,it used to be choke chains and yanking and do as I say, they even used to string dogs up, she said it sickened her and she thought there has to be a better way then this.
> 
> I know what I would rather have.





moonviolet said:


> It might be worth training yourself to stop thinking "I am going to get Cooper to do this" and try to adopt the attitude "How am I going to get Cooper to want to do this." It really is a more fun way of training and being with your dog.


Suppose my attitude towards him needs adapting, I think i understand the meaning of "stubborn breed" a little more now. He wouldn't come out of the living room at bed time last night, when called he just sat and looked at me, he knows if i have a treat or not, i had to show him i had a treat and eventually he came out without being dragged. If i " lure " him out does he still get the treat? i try not to dangle the treat like a carrot but let him sniff it walk away then call him again, in this situation he never comes instantly but does come eventually.

We are going to hold his collar as little as possible, we will only hold it to treat him, hopefully we start getting somewhere with him


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Suppose my attitude towards him needs adapting, I think i understand the meaning of "stubborn breed" a little more now. He wouldn't come out of the living room at bed time last night, when called he just sat and looked at me, he knows if i have a treat or not, i had to show him i had a treat and eventually he came out without being dragged. If i " lure " him out does he still get the treat? i try not to dangle the treat like a carrot but let him sniff it walk away then call him again, in this situation he never comes instantly but does come eventually.
> 
> We are going to hold his collar as little as possible, we will only hold it to treat him, hopefully we start getting somewhere with him


I would do a mini recall with him much like when you are outside and you want to recall him. If you do it as a training exercise, beginning everytime he comes when called he gets a treat. if he doesnt come when called he doesnt, turn you back on him and ignore him. If done as a regular training exercise he should learn, so when you do want/need for him to come or leave a room for real he will have learnt the concept. If that makes since.

You could also use a whistle to move him about the house or come in from the garden, you can even use it for recall outside. You start by blowing the whistle and every toot he gets a treat, just walk around he should follow after a couple of sessions of that then, try it when he is in the garden, stand by the back door and see if he comes treat when he does, then when he is in the garden try it from inside the housse and see ifhe comes. Usse high value treats he likes at first. Eventually he should when he hears the whistle automatically come, You can then start to tailor off the treats when it becomes a conditioned response. or you can just use your voice and his name. If a whistles too loud and you are not planning on doing convventional clicker training you can use a clicker instead of whistling for indoors using the same principle.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

redginald said:


> If i " lure " him out does he still get the treat? i try not to dangle the treat like a carrot but let him sniff it walk away then call him again, in this situation he never comes instantly but does come eventually.
> 
> We are going to hold his collar as little as possible, we will only hold it to treat him, hopefully we start getting somewhere with him


I would say YES - even if you have to show him the treat a few times, as long as he does what he's told he gets the treat for doing it. As he gets more used to doing things for a treat you can reduce the frequency of showing him the reward so he starts to do things expecting a reward but without necessarily seeing it first, and from then on you can start to reduce the frequency of the actual treats. But it is going to be a slow process.

For now you need to work on him wanting to do what you tell him and if that means lots of reminders of why it is good for him to do what you say - then go with that.

I know a lot of people get tied up mentally with the whole lure/bribe/treat/reward thing but dogs don't make the distinctions between them that we do - for a dog it's a case of "do what I'm told and I get..." no matter if they do it in the hope of a reward or because they've been shown it and know it is theirs as soon as they obey.

It sounds like you're making progress and beginning to look at things from your dog's point of view as well - with some dogs it's a longer, harder road to having a well behaved well trained companion than others but keep going, you know it will be worth it in the end and try not to stress when things go wrong on the way (as they are bound to at times) but step back from the situation and see why it went wrong and learn from that.

Good luck and I hope things continue to get better for you all


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> It might be worth training yourself to stop thinking "I am going to get Cooper to do this" and try to adopt the attitude "How am I going to get Cooper to want to do this." It really is a more fun way of training and being with your dog.


I would agree. While Rupert never showed the slightest hint of aggression towards me if I tried making him do something that scared him he simply shut down. And when your dog is a boneless lump on the floor who wets himself if you carry on you very quickly learn to think of ways around the problem. You don't have a choice really, how do you force a dog that's limp and completely unresponsive to sit or walk up stairs or whatever?

I know Cooper is biting rather than shutting down but it sounds to me like he's biting when he's stressed or frightened about something you're doing to him or wanting him to do. I would handle it the same way, find a way of getting him to WANT to do it or enjoy having it done.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> How about just trying a slip lead into a figure of 8, loop one bit over the nose and the other bit behind the ears?
> 
> He might feel less restricted in it, or invasive putting it on.
> 
> ...


our lex hates his head collar, i tried the slip lead turned head collar and he does prefer it over the head collar.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I really feel for you with the run around Cooper is giving you and much as I was criticised about bribing Flynn as a youngster he is a wonderful sound, obedient boy now. I couldn't compare any dog with raising my children as I could reason with them and offer a reward later, they understood what I said. If only we could reason with our dogs we would never need trainers and I could tell Flynn that dog over there isn't going to hurt him so no need for fear, how great that would be!
Dr Sophia Yin says you should never show a dog a treat before he obeys a command as that is bribery and not reward gained for his efforts but I always showed Flynn his treats when getting him to come indoors at bedtime and now as an adult he comes in with no problems and def no treats. 
For his early training days every treat I tried was of no interest to him be it chicken, cheese, hot dogs, liver cake or any commercial treat I bought. After lots of searching I eventually found a treat he never could resist - dolly mixtures! Not good for him but excellent in training, in fact I could walk him past a dog on the same pavement with dolly mixture lures, maybe I should start using them again, lol!

The treats are the main instigator of success or failure with my dog and perhaps could be with Cooper too if you can find something he really can't resist. Limiting his food prior to using the head collar is also ideal and as with any training they always work better for food rewards if they are hungry, of course they won't be bothered if they have a semi full tum!

I agree that a Gencon may be more acceptable to Cooper than a head collar but he is a very strong dog and I tried similar on Flynn which came off when he pawed it. For me the Dogmatic is invaluable. 
I would go through the behaviour section of the DDB forum, ask breeders on there too, people with many years experience with your particular breed as they'll have most likely been in your situation and perhaps what Cooper is doing is just a part of how DDB's 'test the water' as youngsters. I know the Mal forum has helped me understand what makes these guys tick and how best to raise them so hopefully you may find advice on a breed specific forum that'll help with Cooper too. 

He certainly has some character though!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Cheers all, my boys birthday yesterday so wasn't on here. Had people around and coop was great, he's exciteable as would expect but never shows signs of aggression towards strangers.

Sometimes it's difficult if he misbehaves, you go to lead him out the room for biting, he will run, if you take his collar he growls, he won't "come" unless you show him the treat, it then feels like you're treating him for biting!!?

We got an XXL kong today and some nature diet to mix it and he's been getting his full meal, we will mix the kong and wobbler up though.

Walked him alone this afternoon with cheese on hand, he was brilliant, he did pull now and again but i regulary call "cooper" and treat him for looking, i also only have to say "sit" softly as we are walking and he will sit even if not near curb or anything, i know may be different if distractions about but it's alot better than a month or so ago when i was stood at the same curb for 15mins in the snow with him refusing to sit.

I did notice last night that although we kept him in hallway mostly, few times he got in the living room and he was taken by the coller by random people (did have a word about this) he showed no signs of aggression when other people handled him.

I put a photo on, he's not always a monster


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Im sure if you carry on all the training as a regular daily thing with consistency and repetitions it will get better and better. It takes a long awhile to lapse into bad behaviours and things you dont want, so likewise it will take awhile re-training and learning new alternative behviours, but stick at it you are getting there.

I really think the way to go is rather then wait until a situation arises, practice the behaviour you want as a daily training exercise, work on the coming when called on a daily basis, Maybe use a clicker or whistle as suggested before then it will be an entirely new thing and approach so a totally new start.

it sounds as if the actual collar being touched isnt the entire issue, it may be dare I say it the way you previously approached it. Hope you wont take that the wrong way, This is what I was trying to say before about ways to approach things, done in the wrong way it can cause them to be defensive and/or challenge, which I think is what might have happened. All you need to do it keep doing repetitions and trying but in the new ways of approach.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Im sure if you carry on all the training as a regular daily thing with consistency and repetitions it will get better and better. It takes a long awhile to lapse into bad behaviours and things you dont want, so likewise it will take awhile re-training and learning new alternative behviours, but stick at it you are getting there.
> 
> I really think the way to go is rather then wait until a situation arises, practice the behaviour you want as a daily training exercise, work on the coming when called on a daily basis, Maybe use a clicker or whistle as suggested before then it will be an entirely new thing and approach so a totally new start.
> 
> it sounds as if the actual collar being touched isnt the entire issue, it may be dare I say it the way you previously approached it. Hope you wont take that the wrong way, This is what I was trying to say before about ways to approach things, done in the wrong way it can cause them to be defensive and/or challenge, which I think is what might have happened. All you need to do it keep doing repetitions and trying but in the new ways of approach.


No offence taken, will give you an example somehow coop managed to get in whilst i was changing my boys nappy, he was bouncing around and nipping so i needed to remove him, as soon as i stand he will either run behind the dinner table to make it difficult or will start a "play" fight or will run around, instead of getting hold of him i called but no response, i managed to get a piece of cheese under his nose and lead him out, by the time this has happened i feel that the incident that meant he had to be removed had been totally forgotten by him and instead he got to bite the boy, have some fun then got some cheese for his troubles, i have no way of correcting him. I won't lie if that had been Redd he would have had a whacked snout and a time out, and he wouldn't have done it again either. Since having joined pf i have learned that not to be correct and have NEVER done anything like that but sometimes think that might why he takes the pi*s so much.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Just a couple of clarifying questions if i may. How did Coop get it in? What height surface were you changing your son's nappy on? How much good positive focussed attention did Coop get today? 

Oh while I remember, on the collar thing. When you take it do you stand in front of him and look him in the eyes, or move to the side and more push that pull if that makes sense?


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Just a couple of clarifying questions if i may. How did Coop get it in? What height surface were you changing your son's nappy on? How much good positive focussed attention did Coop get today?
> 
> Oh while I remember, on the collar thing. When you take it do you stand in front of him and look him in the eyes, or move to the side and more push that pull if that makes sense?


Don't think the gate was shut properly so was my fault, and my boy was on the floor. Re the coller, im not sure really sometimes it will be head on, sometimes it's however i can.

We've done some training today, also some collar grabs with bits of ham we had left over from dinner.

I took the kids out in the street to try out my boys new bike, took cooper out and attatched him to a training line, some neighbours fussed him and he was just being nutty but always seems friendly, also kept him on a tight leash and allowed him upto the neighbours cat and he was really good, left him a few seconds and walked on before he got a paw in his face and treated


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Gut reaction was he was doing something unacceptable to get reaction and hence attention, At that age my little s*d's particular favourite things were stealing phones and the tv remote. Obviously bouncing and nipping at your son is completely unacceptable. Removing the opportunity is the safest answer.

As you know i'm not a fan of collar grabbing, but in emergency situation it can be necessary. Try never to do it head on staring in his face. It's more confrontational than from the side.

Another thing that might be useful is to give him a treat sometimes when he is simply being calm. In fact treat him anytime, he does anything you like.

Sounds like he did great with the cat. Hang in there you are going to have an amazing dog when you have put in all the groundwork.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Gut reaction was he was doing something unacceptable to get reaction and hence attention, At that age my little s*d's particular favourite things were stealing phones and the tv remote. Obviously bouncing and nipping at your son is completely unacceptable. Removing the opportunity is the safest answer.
> 
> As you know i'm not a fan of collar grabbing, but in emergency situation it can be necessary. Try never to do it head on staring in his face. It's more confrontational than from the side.
> 
> ...


Cheers, glad you see what i meant about sometimes having to take his collar. i think most his biting is still play biting and it is slowly getting less and less. He never snarls when i grab coller and treat . sometimes especially bedtime he will sit and is very difficult to move, i know in this situation he will growl if i take his collar but he can be very stubborn even refusing cheese to move, hopefully we will get there!


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

sometimes with ddbs in particular i found that they growl but its actually a purr like a cat but because of theire size it sounds - well not exactly friendly 

If you didnt know my dog shabba and was sat near him you would **** yourself thinking thats any minute now hes gonna leap across the floor and rip your head off 
but nope he is just purring with contentment like a big bad pussy cat 

When my ddbs dont want to do as they are told, they just turn there back to you and sulk ( they are great sulkers) and they will do this for ages ( or so it seems)


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Gut reaction was he was doing something unacceptable to get reaction and hence attention, At that age my little s*d's particular favourite things were stealing phones and the tv remote. Obviously bouncing and nipping at your son is completely unacceptable. Removing the opportunity is the safest answer.
> 
> As you know i'm not a fan of collar grabbing, but in emergency situation it can be necessary. Try never to do it head on staring in his face. It's more confrontational than from the side.
> 
> ...


I agree with Moon Violet I dont think it is always being Nasty, If a DDB is like a Malamute they are intelligent and have a sense of humour, Kobi used to nick the remote when he got bored and run off, attention seeking as it was the only sky one and didnt want to risk distruction of course he got the attention rewarding it. However I scuppered him in two ways, One was replacing it with an old universal one that didnt matter, so when he run off with it I just used to get up and leave the room, in which case he soon lost interest, and secondly I taught him to bring it back and swop it for a treat.
Actually I think I did the retrieve first.

A lot of Coopers I think is attention seeking and wanting to play, not saying all because he is the age where he will push and see what he can get away with too. A proportion of it could still be puppy stuff too. You can though if you are not careful reward the behaviour you dont want.

I would practice calling him from room to room as a daily training exercise get the behaviour in place so it becomes a conditioned response, I would always too before cooper gets a treat ask him to sit for it, in that way by sitting before a treat you have a marker of sorts if that makes sense so you cant actually reward him for the wrong thing. So for examples he is doing something he shouldnt and you want him out or moved, he has to come to you/with you but he then sits as well to get the treat.

Also agree with Moon violet we forget to praise sometimes when we should,
if he is laying down chewing his chew, standing or sitting watching you nicely sometimes any behaviour which you do want in fact praise him for that. it re-enforces it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Cheers, glad you see what i meant about sometimes having to take his collar. i think most his biting is still play biting and it is slowly getting less and less. He never snarls when i grab coller and treat . sometimes especially bedtime he will sit and is very difficult to move, i know in this situation he will growl if i take his collar but he can be very stubborn even refusing cheese to move, hopefully we will get there!


I agree you do need to be able to hold their collars and guide them at times its a question of having to and safety, I often do with this lot. Im sure in time with desensitisation and making the good associations with you holding his collar, he will be fine. With any new behaviour you teach a dog it takes a lot of repetitions anyway, if you are stopping one behaviour and substituting it with an alternative behaviour it takes even longer and more repetitions, be consistent and you will get there.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Glad your making some kind of progress, even if it seems slow going! 

Are you teaching him 'out' and 'stay' aswell? they are important ones for a dog that size. you cant be trying to forceably remove a 10 stone dog. 

Hes probably trying to play with you half the time, because he was brought up outside and not enough human contact hes treating you like another puppy. You will get there he's just got to learn you play with humans without using teeth:thumbup1:


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Been on ddb forum, somebody echoed that should do basic training, he doesn't like me holding his collar, his power point as he doesn't think i deserve to. somebodg else said i need a gaurdian breed behaviorist because reward based training may cure a "yapper" but not a naughty ddb!? i was told i shouldnt leave the headcollar as itd sending a strong message agression getd him what he wants!!


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

redginald said:


> Been on ddb forum, somebody echoed that should do basic training, he doesn't like me holding his collar, his power point as he doesn't think i deserve to. somebodg else said i need a gaurdian breed behaviorist because reward based training may cure a "yapper" but not a naughty ddb!? i was told i shouldnt leave the headcollar as itd sending a strong message agression getd him what he wants!!


If you are happy about the advice your current behaviourist have provided then you don't need another behaviourist. Reward based training should work for any guardian breed, as it has for my guardian breed. You do not need a guardian breed behaviourist either IMO.

If Cooper is showing slight improvement and your happy with the behaviourist then go with what your behaviourist has said.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

redginald said:


> Been on ddb forum, somebody echoed that should do basic training, he doesn't like me holding his collar, his power point as he doesn't think i deserve to. somebodg else said i need a gaurdian breed behaviorist because reward based training may cure a "yapper" but not a naughty ddb!? i was told i shouldnt leave the headcollar as itd sending a strong message agression getd him what he wants!!


maybe the head collar is hurting him and thats his way of showing you.

sometimes if you leave things for a while it gives them time to forget about it and start afresh! alfie had a problem with under his tail being touched, the more we pushed the more he would run away, we left it for a while and now he is more accepting of it being done now.

i think sometimes too much info from too many sources counteracts what you are trying to do. give the methods of this trainer a go and only his advice otherwise you wont know whose advice to take and whose not to.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks, keep hearing "YOU NEED TO ACT, THIS NEEDS SORTING NOW" so im petrafied if i dont pickthe right methods now i may not get another chance, i would be devastated if we had to rehome him or worse so want to get it right


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2012)

redginald said:


> Been on ddb forum, somebody echoed that should do basic training, he doesn't like me holding his collar, his power point as he doesn't think i deserve to. somebodg else said i need a gaurdian breed behaviorist because reward based training may cure a "yapper" but not a naughty ddb!? i was told i shouldnt leave the headcollar as itd sending a strong message agression getd him what he wants!!


It has already been explained to you what rewards based training is. It has already been explained to you that your dog is not unique, is not trying to take over the household, and is not trying to get in to a power struggle with you. Yet you persist on returning to these notions. I think you need a mental shift more than the dog does.

There is no such thing as a special breed of dog for whom the laws of behavioral science do not apply. A feather and a stone may fall out a window differently, but they are both eventually going to hit the ground because gravity applies to both. Same thing with behavioral science. It applies to ALL organisms. From an inchworm to a human. All properly functioning organisms repeat what they find rewarding and avoid what they find punishing. Anyone trying to tell you that DDB dont respond to treat training is as misinformed as someone saying that feathers dont respond to gravity.

I have a house full of dogs who prove resoundingly wrong the idea that reward based training doesnt work on guardian breeds. Trainers worldwide are repeatedly proving this notion wrong. 
Let me ask you something. These people saying you cant treat train a DDB, can they give you evidence that whatever they are doing works? How do their dogs behave? Bearing in mind that absence of behavior does not equal well-behaved.

Your dog doesnt like you holding his collar because historically every time you do, its to lead him away from something he wants. Hes a smart dog, hes figured out what collar grabbing means and hes going to try and avoid it. Teach him that collar grabbing can mean good things and the protesting will go away. No, not overnight, but with consistency it will happen sooner than youd think.

He doesnt like the headcollar because you never properly desensitized him to it and he has very negative associations built up around it. Not because hes naughty or aggressive but because he has bad feelings about it. It is also perfectly possible to counter condition his negative feelings about the head collar, but for now, its not a priority. Not that you shouldnt ever use a headcollar on him, just that its not the most pressing priority at the moment. A dog can lead a full life without ever wearing a headcollar.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I wouldn't put a head collar on a dog that young, it also looks a bit snug in the photo you put up, can you not try a fleece lined harness instead  

Also, i might have missed it but did you ever get him vet checked ? He may be in pain along the neck area ect


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

What's Cooper's goodnight routine? where does he sleep? etc


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Point taken, coopers dad is up for sale and another stud from the breeder, also cant get hold of her, even contacred other breeders and ddb welfare for other contacts but line is dead.

His bedtime routine isnt set yet as weve only just banned him from upstairs, he normally falls asleep by our feet then when we go up i have to wake him to let him go for a pee, then lead him to bed.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Point taken, coopers dad is up for sale and another stud from the breeder, also cant get hold of her, even contacred other breeders and ddb welfare for other contacts but line is dead.
> 
> His bedtime routine isnt set yet as weve only just banned him from upstairs, he normally falls asleep by our feet then when we go up i have to wake him to let him go for a pee, then lead him to bed.


I think you need to look more at the positives and disregard the negatives at the moment. He isnt going to turn into a model dog over night. All dogs need ongoing and consistent training. You need to come up with a game plan and stick to it. If you have seen improvements in him which I think you have? 
Then you are going in the right direction.

With Kobis anxiety fear based problems for example it didnt all go away overnight, it took constant and c0nsistent chipping away at the problems. I even would have a few days or even weeks, and then we would have an incident and I would feel I was back to square one and getting nowhere. Hands up, it was when I started to get my head straight and realised you are going to have a set back and a bad day/incident here and there and so what, it was one bad day/walk and looked postive again and brushed it off I really started to get somewhere. I then started to realise the bad days were getting less and less frequent and the good positive days were getting more and more. If we still had the odd set back occasionally then even then it wasnt as bad as it used to be.

He is also a young dog and alright he has problems he might need ironing out,
but like all young dogs, he is going to do stuff that is just because he is what he is a dog with physical, hormonal and mental stages of developement going on. Any young dog is going to be a challenge to a dog you have/had for years and has gone through all the silly stuff and just plods through and gets on with life on a daily basis.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I'd guess he is not enjoying the transisition from upstairs with the family nearby to downstairs, i'm not saying it's wrong, my dog sleeps downstairs, but I do think it can be harder for dogs living as an only dog.

Building up a positive association with his bed could help. Chews given to him on his bed etc. If he's laying on it calmly, but awake praise/treat. Throwing a treat on to the bed and praising him when he goes onto the bed etc.

Just to echo Ouesi I grew up around animals of this size and bigger.








Strength and force would never work with them. In fact it was tried by the Max the bull's previous owner and Max broke his arm!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

redginald said:


> Been on ddb forum, somebody echoed that should do basic training, he doesn't like me holding his collar, his power point as he doesn't think i deserve to. somebodg else said i need a gaurdian breed behaviorist because reward based training may cure a "yapper" but not a naughty ddb!? i was told i shouldnt leave the headcollar as itd sending a strong message agression getd him what he wants!!


I wouldn't bother canvassing owners for behavioural advice. I wouldn't. You'll get a myriad of different answers, stick with the behaviourist.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

going to stick to the plan then, just walked him and we have a double ended lead to use with a headcollar, as we were walking along the brook i adjusted the lead so it was longer, he had a puppy 5 mins and was running big circles around me then started jumping up at the lead and chewing it and kept trying to start playfighting with me, i kept putting him into a sit and he eventually calmed and walked normally. As we got back the neighbours collared me and were all fussing him and has to be said he always seems great with strangers, we were stood out for a while and he just lead down and let people stroke him. Next step we are going to teach him to get into bed and to get out the room......hopefully! You can play with a tug toy with him already and he can get quite worked up but as soon as we say "OFF" he will sit for a treat


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Just spent 15mins teaching him to go to his bed and he's already pretty good, already at a point when im clicking him for laying on it and not just standing on it, he's lying on it now with his kong  he does pick things up really quickly and he's far from stupid as some of the breed info on the internet suggests


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

As i said in PM i the breeder failed him badly, you now have to think of him as a little pup, even though he's huge  and start from the beginning. 

He will turn into a big loving softy, just do everything you would training a little pup, try (very hard i know!) not to get angry with him, stay calm and confident and things will get better, as you are already seeing, your doing well and doing your best. He needs alot of love. and someone to trust. 

And dont panic and become not consistent by changing methods, that will be worse for him. 

How much does the boy weigh now?!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Bullymastiff said:


> As i said in PM i the breeder failed him badly, you now have to think of him as a little pup, even though he's huge  and start from the beginning.
> 
> He will turn into a big loving softy, just do everything you would training a little pup, try (very hard i know!) not to get angry with him, stay calm and confident and things will get better, as you are already seeing, your doing well and doing your best. He needs alot of love. and someone to trust.
> 
> ...


cheers, he's learning, and i am. Not had him weighed at the vets but roughly on our scales he's just under 30kg


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Been training him again, kept on with the "bed" command and going well, also let him approach the collar and even had it resting on his nose but didn't clip it up he didn't snap once but didn't push it just gave loads of treats then put it away.

When walking he went crazy again for 5 mins jumping up and biting the lead, today he refused to sit whilst in this mood, and kept jumping up, my only choice was to shorten the lead right up to keep control, he wasn't trying to hurt me he was chewing the lead and air snapping but didn't actually bite me. he refused to sit, until i shouted "SIT DOWN" which turned heads in cars, to which his ears went back and he sat down, we walked on and he behaved for the rest of the walk???? 

Still no contact with breeder


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2012)

redginald said:


> Been training him again, kept on with the "bed" command and going well, also let him approach the collar and even had it resting on his nose but didn't clip it up he didn't snap once but didn't push it just gave loads of treats then put it away.
> 
> When walking he went crazy again for 5 mins jumping up and biting the lead, today he refused to sit whilst in this mood, and kept jumping up, my only choice was to shorten the lead right up to keep control, he wasn't trying to hurt me he was chewing the lead and air snapping but didn't actually bite me. he refused to sit, until i shouted "SIT DOWN" which turned heads in cars, to which his ears went back and he sat down, we walked on and he behaved for the rest of the walk????
> 
> Still no contact with breeder


He wasnt refusing to sit, he was too excited to sit. Hes a puppy, he has no impulse control and he doesnt have the tools to know how to control himself when he goes nuts.
He stopped when you shouted because you probably scared him. Especially if his ears went back and he went still (sat). This is not him controlling himself, this is you controlling him. It may not seem like an important distinction who is controlling who, but trust me, it is. You may teach him to behave when youre around to enforce things, but what if youre not there to enforce? What if he decides you cant *make* him? Then what?

The key to teaching SELF-control is to work in small increments. Start under mild to no excitement and slowly build the excitement as the dog is successful. If the dog loses it, go back a step and work there until the dog gains more proficiency.

This is a video of a game called go crazy freeze that is one of many ways you can teach impulse control. Doesnt matter what cue you use, just that the dog is the one who chooses to sit/stop, not that hes made to.

Teaching Go Crazy, Freeze - YouTube


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> He wasn't refusing to sit, he was too excited to sit. He's a puppy, he has no impulse control and he doesn't have the tools to know how to control himself when he goes nuts.
> He stopped when you shouted because you probably scared him. Especially if his ears went back and he went still (sat). This is not him controlling himself, this is you controlling him. It may not seem like an important distinction who is controlling who, but trust me, it is. You may teach him to behave when you're around to enforce things, but what if you're not there to enforce? What if he decides you can't *make* him? Then what?
> 
> The key to teaching SELF-control is to work in small increments. Start under mild to no excitement and slowly build the excitement as the dog is successful. If the dog loses it, go back a step and work there until the dog gains more proficiency.
> ...


We already train him in this we use a rope toy, he gets wound up, we stop and say "off" and he sits and waits to play again, i suppose when you play again this is the reward for stopping. Hes actually really good when we play this, out on the lead is a different matter, what would be the best way to deal with him when he's growling (he always growls when playing rough) and jumping up at you, even if he responds to "off" he wants the lead to chew again after

Ah, just watched video, (assumed was the same vid i watched as similar title ) will give this a go, cheers!


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Just ignore him. By fussing him when he has a bonkers moment you give him attention and reinforce the behaviour. Try turning half away from him, folding your arms and looking skywards and patiently waiting for him to calm down. As soon as he offers something appropriate and calm say "good boy" and either give him a treat or just reward him by continuing the walk.

You really must stop shouting at and getting stressed out at this dog. If you start to lose your temper in the house just walk away from him and give yourself a timeout (my OH has to do this with my puppy quite often!). If you are out and about just make sure you have a good hold on the lead and your feet firmly planted and disengage with him completely until he calms down.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2012)

redginald said:


> We already train him in this we use a rope toy, he gets wound up, we stop and say "off" and he sits and waits to play again, i suppose when you play again this is the reward for stopping. Hes actually really good when we play this, out on the lead is a different matter, what would be the best way to deal with him when he's growling (he always growls when playing rough) and jumping up at you, even if he responds to "off" he wants the lead to chew again after
> 
> Ah, just watched video, (assumed was the same vid i watched as similar title ) will give this a go, cheers!


LOL! Its has never occurred to me to stop a dog from growling when theyre playing! I have no clue how you would approach this :001_huh:

If he still jumps after you ask for a sit, youre a) upping the excitement too quickly, and b) not reinforcing the actual sit. Ask for a sit and reward, then quickly reward again for maintaining the sit. So it will look like this: 
sit&treat - pause - praise&treat - pause - praise&treat - release. 
Then you can extend the duration of the pause, but make sure you always release. And the release doesnt have to be verbal, you can have a visual or physical signal too. A nod, a pat, a thump on the bum or chest - all of those are release signals in our house.

Often owners are fabulous at teaching the dog that sit means plop you bum to the ground, but you also have to teach the dog that it means KEEP you bum plopped to the ground until I either release you, or tell you to do something else.
Notice in the video towards the end how the dog was encouraged to STAY sitting then told okay before going crazy again?


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> Been training him again, kept on with the "bed" command and going well, also let him approach the collar and even had it resting on his nose but didn't clip it up he didn't snap once but didn't push it just gave loads of treats then put it away.
> 
> When walking he went crazy again for 5 mins jumping up and biting the lead, today he refused to sit whilst in this mood, and kept jumping up, my only choice was to shorten the lead right up to keep control, he wasn't trying to hurt me he was chewing the lead and air snapping but didn't actually bite me. he refused to sit, until i shouted "SIT DOWN" which turned heads in cars, to which his ears went back and he sat down, we walked on and he behaved for the rest of the walk????
> 
> Still no contact with breeder


you`ve just got to keep persevering with him , they are such a headstrong breed like many other mastiffs , where you may be failing him is , your probably spending much too long with him trying , he`s still only a youngster though his body tells you otherwise , he`s still a kid in the head. frequent short bursts of training you`ll find will probably work the best. say 5 mins 9 / 10 times a day. though i appreciate it`s not possible at all times , you need to remember he is just a pup and have to keep things fresh in his mind , the thing with these type of breeds is , it never stops you have to constantly keep on top of it so it`s never going to be a quick fix , you`ll still be teaching and training him in his twilight years and up until the day he dies.
it sounds like you went to a pretty bad breeder , i`d forget them , if they`re the kind that don`t want to keep in touch with you , they`re not worth bothering with. i wouldn`t be letting those clumsy good looks fool you , for it to completely work i`m afraid you`re going to have to be cruel to be kind to get anywhere with him they are like others such a hard breed but the rewards he will give you will be tenfold if you just keep on top of everything , he will keep testing you and challenging you , it`s what these dogs do best.
try not to loose it with him , the moment you do that , he`s won in his own mind.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

ddb are far from stupid ( lazy yes ) but not stupid they often need a reason to do something 
ie when i throw a stick /ball for mine they will get it twice third time no chance ( and that all five of them ) they dont see the point so they dont do it 

if you are off over the easter weekend or anytime next week my dh and myself are both off and at home in bristol and if you want to walk Cooper with ours ddbs which are the same age give me a shout im only in Bristol and happy to meet halfway or something


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Appreciate the offer thanks, looks like a busy weekend though and my girlfriend is working most the weekend too, but cheers. I know what you mean about the 3rd and 4th time of asking gets a " are you serious?, just done it twice, are you some kind of Ars*hole??!!" look from him. ut:

Last couple of days he's "flipped" again whilst walking but this time i just kept him on a short lead, ignored and just walked normally and he settled quickly both times, we been teaching him commands and that has been going well too. He's also had his Halti on his nose a few times now with no biting so looks to be going well.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Coops been doing well, he goes to his bed (when cheese is on offer) on command stood half the length of the living room away from it, still working on it but he's getting there. He's been flipping out less on the lead now aswell. He had the collar resting on his nose a couple of times tonight and even clipped it up for a short time ( he really doesn't like wearing it so don't think we will ever walk him on it again but want to still work on getting him to accept it again) his general behavior has been alot better, getting alot of jumping up with visitors now though so will work on that. Been playing tug of war with him and freezing and saying "off" , found tug of war helps wear him out. I did read on a DDB breeders website that tug of war is a good game to help bond with a DDB but any teeth on skin should receive a negative reaction from you, a grip of the collar, a small shake, and a big voice reprimand, ive not done this, if he does get me i normally yell then walk off for a while, hope this is enough to give him the message. He seems happier to stay downstairs now aswell, the gate has even been left open accidentally a few times and he's stayed down (not every time though) Also seems to be getting his full food allowance between both kong toys too, although seems a little bit in dribs and drabs at times but the lots normally gone by bedtime and he seems to be keeping weight on so not worried. Seems a bit of a grey area at the moment with the zero tolerence on teeth on skin, he often will open his mouth when being cuddled as if to initiate play, and sort of atteampts at mouthing without actually ever really biting, if teeth do touch the skin its normally a brush past, and i really don't beleive he even knows he's done it, i normally give a loud "uh" if i sense he's thinking about getting you and this normally results in him shutting his mouth.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

glad things are a little easier with you and cooper


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Things sound like they are going well with a steady progress. The more you are consistent and let him know exactly whats acceptable and what isnt the more everything should fall into place. They are a work in progress at this stage its not the easiest age in general but more important now then ever that you keep on top with hormones and adolescence around the corner if it hasnt started already.

Dogs usually thrieve on routine and knowing where they are so the more its established the easier it should start to get.

AS regards to jumping up at visitors, its very important that they dont inadvertently encourage and/or reward it. Tell them to totally ignore him when arriving. Not even looking at him and eye contacting talking to hmi going to stroke him nothing. Only when he is calm and sitting or at least calm and standing can they fuss him. If they give him any of the attention that he is seeking whilst jumping they will reward his efforts and you will have an ongoing battle as behaviour that gets what he wants and is rewarded will be repeated, thats what they do. If one behaviour doesnt get what he wants ie attention and just gets him ignored, then he wont do it its pointless. If calmly sitting or standing gets it thats the behaviour he will do. Some dogs take longer then others to get it but they usually do.

If he is too bad any time or to start off training, You can put him in another room when you know they are coming initially with a Kong with say peanut butter smeared inside. Then when they are in and seated, either let him out, or bring him out on a lead initially. Tell them to ignore him at first until calmed then you can take him over, when he is, get him to sit and if he remains calm then they can talk to him and fuss him etc.

Depending how that goes, there is something else that you can keep in reserve, that is to let or bring him in and if the wont calm in spite of being ignored, or wont stop jumping take him out on lead (easier if he is brought in on it at least at first) let him calm, bring him in again, Behaviour you want he stays, behaviour you dont want out again and repeat and keep repeating.
I would try the other ways first, but this is a good one to keep in reserve as I said.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Just started a new thread with vid of coopers progress

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/231044-coopers-progress.html


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