# Does anyone here use a SLIP LEAD?



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just wondering if anyone here uses a slip lead and if yes, can you kindly recommend a good type/brand for a very large, strong, quite excitable dog?

I'm starting to walk Dex without a headcollar on local walks, sometimes, but feel I still need more control than a 'flat' collar.

Conversely if anyone feels a slip lead is a bad choice, please feel free to tell me, I am very open to any guidance


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

I use a slip lead (this one) It's great because it can also be used as a head collar - so I can swap between headcollar and slip lead easily when neccesary, so the extra control is always there if I need it.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I use a £4 one from Wilko and it has lasted me ages. In fact I need to go out and get some more. They are a bit smaller, but making a figure of 8 with the collar bit you can fashion a Halti out of it if need be.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

How does a slip lead give more control than a flat collar? (genuinely curious!)


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes, I use one to get Maya into the bath and to walk Luna as she doesn't pull very much when she wears it.

Got mine from a local pet shop 8 or so years ago before I had a dog :lol: I bought one so I could have my own when volunteering at a local rescue as leads were hard to get.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> How does a slip lead give more control than a flat collar? (genuinely curious!)


If fitted properly it's loose around the dogs neck, if the dog pulls or anything it then tightens. The dog can't get out of it either.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

So how is it different to a choke chain, or a half check with a lead?


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## midnightrainbow (Dec 21, 2010)

Ancol make good slip leads. They are pretty thick and well woven together and have a good solid leather "tag" that prevents the lead from loosening up too much. Also the handle loops are pretty securely bonded with leather too. I've tried a few different ones and whenever the lead stretched any the tag would ride up. Ancol's seem to stay pretty well placed during use.



McKenzie said:


> So how is it different to a choke chain, or a half check with a lead?


They are different because they are much easier to slip on the dog, so if you need to get it back on the lead in a hurry, it's simply a case of them shoving their head through it rather than fiddling around for a loop and hook.

Also, it gives you more control at times when you need it (at the side of a road/with other dogs/near unsavory objects etc) it's softer and loosens up a LOT quicker than a choke chain does (if used correctly of course) and provides more guiding control than a half check. If you're dog walks well on a loose lead then a slip lead is perfect because it hangs nicely around their neck and will only tighten if they pull forward or you pull them back and as soon as there is the slightest bit of slack in the lead, it looses up again.

My cocker pulls like hell in a harness or a flat/half check collar but as soon as I put the slip lead on, she was walking perfectly before I ever had to feel it tighten.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I use one on Kali but that's because she isn't dog reactive or a puller. I wouldn't use one on Flynn because on the occasion I did and he pulled a little at times he started getting head tremors so I never knew if it were because of that or a recent booster jab he had had. The vet insisted it wasn't the booster (which he would) but the slip lead putting pressure on the delicate neck nerves at the top of the spine as that's where I used to have the lead. With Kali she never reacts or pulls to anything and it's great to just get the lead, slip it over her neck and we're off.

I like them because they remain loose unless the dog pulls and even a 'backing out' dog can't get free from a slip lead. Wouldn't dream of using one to control pulling though - what I saw with Flynn was extremely scary and just in case it was caused by the lead......


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> So how is it different to a choke chain, or a half check with a lead?


I find they are good if you just want to quickly pop a lead on. The rope slips were very popular for obedience dogs at one time, not sure if they still are. I would not use one all the time but they do have their place. If used correctly they will work very much like a check or half check but you are removing the whole lot when you take the lead off. Ideal leads to use on kennelled dogs as you can leave them without a collar for safety and just pop the lead on to get them out of the kennel.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

This is a thoughtful article about attaching anything to a dogs neck.

Dogmantics Dog Training Blog: Is it harmful to attach a leash to your dog's neck?

Personally, I will not put anything with unlimited tightening potential on my dogs.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

I have a few KJK Ropeworks ones with a rubber stop and use them occasionally as they're so quick and easy, I also usually carry one incase I come across any waifs and strays!

I wouldn't use one for 'more control' on a dog that's reactive or one that pulls though.

ETA: Have you thought about a front clipping harness like this - http://www.xtradog.com/shop/telling...tra-dog-walking-harness-size-medium-deep.html or a martingale collar? Sounds like one of those would be more suitable.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I have always had a slip lead because with my last dog I never used anything else, but she was perfectly behaved. I have been using a harness on Mia as she is so strong and pulls but just today I took her for an assessment with a very highly regarded gun dog trainer and the first thing he did was put a slip on her and she was walking perfectly to heel within 20 seconds with the slip hanging loose around her shoulders, she continued that way for the next hour and a half and even stayed in a sit at my side when we removed the slip for a while. If I had unclipped the lead from her harness she would have been off like a rocket hunting as we were in a large field. I am going to continue training with the slip at home until I am 100% sure of her then start taking her out on walks with it and dump the harness unless she is tracking when she should be wearing one. This guy showed me how to use a slip properley and it was the stuff of miracles.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

If you actually want to use it to correct him then it needs to be a slip which doesn't stretch when you tug it between your hands, if it does your correction ends up getting down the lead that bit after you want it to. You want one which doesn't really flex.

The difference between a slip and a choke is what they are made of. The difference between a half check collar (chain) is that the dog is meant to hear the chain and think oh my collar will tighten best stop pulling. Same principle for them all, you pull and it will tighten.

Saying which you are supposed to correct them before they fall too far out of place. I wouldn't use it on a dog that would lean on it.

I like them but find they rest on a flat collar so better collarless, and I wont walk mine collarless as they then have no tags on. I think slips are convenient for generally well trained and obedient dogs, I'm not sure I would want to train a dog to heel on one if it had no idea whatsoever (ie. a puppy desperately wanting to get at everything).


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I only use slip leads when I'm doing agility, it's easier just slipping a loop over their heads rather than trying to find a clip. Unless your dog walks nicely on a loose lead most of the time, then a slip lead can do more harm than good; there is also a correct and incorrect way of fitting them, make sure you know which one is which. 

Again though, I've seen people being dragged down the road by their dog on a slip lead/collar, very dangerous for both handler and dog.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

I use a slip lead on my dog when we are on a shoot for quickness to put on and take off. At all other times she is walked on a harness or flat collar. 
Slip leads should not be used on dogs that pull. As a training aid they are worse than useless.
I usually have one in my pocket when she is off lead. Again for quickness if she has to go on lead for a short time.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

lucylastic said:


> I use a slip lead on my dog when we are on a shoot for quickness to put on and take off. At all other times she is walked on a harness or flat collar.
> Slip leads should not be used on dogs that pull. As a training aid they are worse than useless.
> I usually have one in my pocket when she is off lead. Again for quickness if she has to go on lead for a short time.


I think its the fact they're so convenient that a lot of people use them, even on massively pully dogs


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Golden Shadow summed up nicely what I was trying to say. Slip leads are quick and convenient for well trained dogs who do not pull.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I wouldn't use one on an excitable dog because as others have said the action is no different to a choke. Breeze has one as she doesn't pull and can slip a collar but I also use one as a figure-8 headcollar on Scooter if he's having a naughty period.
He tolerated his Halti but learnt to brace his neck and pull into it, he doesn't do that with the slip lead. Towards the end of the walk I take the loop off his nose and use it as a slip lead as he'll be loose lead walking by then - could be worth trying with Dexter.

One of mine came from TK Maxx for £2.99 (it's average quality, nothing special) and the other came from Crufts (it's lovely!).


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

I only use slip leads! They are so easy to slip on and give great control for strong dogs aswell which i found for my lab who pulled.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> I have a few KJK Ropeworks ones with a rubber stop and use them occasionally as they're so quick and easy, I also usually carry one incase I come across any waifs and strays!
> 
> I wouldn't use one for 'more control' on a dog that's reactive or one that pulls though.
> 
> ETA: Have you thought about a front clipping harness like this - Fleece dog harness with front rings or a martingale collar? Sounds like one of those would be more suitable.


Many thanks for the link 

I recently did try a front clipping harness, albeit not the one you have kindly linked to. Alas it did not offer enough control, though I really hoped it was going to.

*THANKS SO MUCH EVERYONE for your helpful responses and the links, much appreciated *


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> This is a thoughtful article about attaching anything to a dogs neck.
> 
> Dogmantics Dog Training Blog: Is it harmful to attach a leash to your dogs neck?
> 
> Personally, I will not put anything with unlimited tightening potential on my dogs.


Very interesting article, thank you!

Think I will forget the slip lead and carry on with a headcollar as that way his neck is not being jerked and he walks very nicely on it.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Very wise decision, and for those who believe that a dog cannot back out of a slip lead, I regret to say that you are incorrect, which is one of the many reasons they are not recommended for use eg on a public highway etc


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## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

I only use one for jinja because she has no neck and wont keep a collar on when there is a lead attached. She dosn't pull so we always walk with it slack but its there just in case something spooks her.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Very wise decision, and for those who believe that a dog cannot back out of a slip lead, I regret to say that you are incorrect, which is one of the many reasons they are not recommended for use eg on a public highway etc


The sliders on slip leads are there to prevent backing out/over-loosening. IME rubber ring sliders are no good and either make the lead too tight around the neck or let it get too loose. Thick leather sliders are good. My crufts slip lead has a very strong one which is tight around the lead, it's very resistant when I adjust it so I can't see it loosening on it's own.

Breeze can get out of a flat collar or a harness if she's spooked but hasn't got out of her slip lead. Fortunately her recall is excellent but I feel more confident walking her on a slip than something I know she can wriggle out of.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

For anyone who uses a slip lead in a figure 8, twisted under the chin, beware! It is very easy for a dog to back out of those too.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

lucylastic said:


> For anyone who uses a slip lead in a figure 8, twisted under the chin, beware! It is very easy for a dog to back out of those too.


Isnt that a gencon, thats a figure of 8?

Never mind get what you mean now!


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

I, too, use a slip lead for agility and understand it's easy to get on and off. What I didn't understand was the 'more control' bit. It seems like using a slip lead as a 'training aid' is just a prettier way of choking your dog into behaving.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> I, too, use a slip lead for agility and understand it's easy to get on and off. What I didn't understand was the 'more control' bit. It seems like using a slip lead as a 'training aid' is just a prettier of choking your dog into behaving.


Exactly. It is no kinder than a check chain.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> I, too, use a slip lead for agility and understand it's easy to get on and off. What I didn't understand was the 'more control' bit. It seems like using a slip lead as a 'training aid' is just a prettier way of choking your dog into behaving.


Not sure if this was aimed at me.....? 

Just in case it is, I'd like to stress, that I do not 'choke my dog into behaving'. In fact in the initial post I asked for people's opinions on whether a slip lead was a good option or not...


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Not sure if this was aimed at me.....?
> 
> Just in case it is, I'd like to stress, that I do not 'choke my dog into behaving'. In fact in the initial post I asked for people's opinions on whether a slip lead was a good option or not...


It was aimed at anyone who uses slip leads on a pulling dog really. People get all bothered with choke chains but slip leads seem to be pretty much the same thing.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> It was aimed at anyone who uses slip leads on a pulling dog really. People get all bothered with choke chains but slip leads seem to be pretty much the same thing.


This is the MASSIVE bug bear I have. To me they have the same principle = same thing more or less. Sometimes I get a bit defensive because I know how to use a slip lead, it should be loose all the time, you shouldn't be nagging on the dog's neck nor should they be leaning and spluttering on it. Which is why its very frustrating when sometimes people think everyone who uses a slip lead chokes their dog. Rupert didn't get walked in one until he was over two.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> It was aimed at anyone who uses slip leads on a pulling dog really. People get all bothered with choke chains but slip leads seem to be pretty much the same thing.


I agree.. why on earth anyone would want to choke their dog intentionally is beyond me


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

Slip leads give alot more control than a normal collar and lead. We use them in kennels all the time because they are simple, quick and easy and give more control. 

They do not choke dogs at all, if they choked dogs then most dogs would be dead by now with the amount of people who use them. People always say omg thats going to choke the dog and cut of its airway.. Hmm yer alright, it takes a hell of alot to choke a dog. So definately dont agree with anyone saying that as it is not the case because i doubt all the people who use them want to choke their dog.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Yep, used one for agility shows as Amber ran better without a collar and I prefer to use them for close control situations. Using them further up the neck is the most effective and it doesn't do the dog any harm if you use them correctly.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> Slip leads give alot more control than a normal collar and lead. We use them in kennels all the time because they are simple, quick and easy and give more control.
> 
> They do not choke dogs at all, if they choked dogs then most dogs would be dead by now with the amount of people who use them. People always say omg thats going to choke the dog and cut of its airway.. Hmm yer alright, it takes a hell of alot to choke a dog. So definately dont agree with anyone saying that as it is not the case because i doubt all the people who use them want to choke their dog.


it depends on how much the dogs pull...as to if it chokes them or not


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Slip leads give alot more control than a normal collar and lead. We use them in kennels all the time because they are simple, quick and easy and give more control.
> 
> They do not choke dogs at all, if they choked dogs then most dogs would be dead by now with the amount of people who use them. People always say omg thats going to choke the dog and cut of its airway.. Hmm yer alright, it takes a hell of alot to choke a dog. So definately dont agree with anyone saying that as it is not the case because i doubt all the people who use them want to choke their dog.


Do slip leads not tighten around the dogs neck the more you or the dog pulls? 
Do they not have unlimited tightening potential?

Given that dogs do indeed have an airway and blood vessels, not to mention other important structures in their neck, does it not stand to reason that something tightening around their neck will cause constriction of these structures and in turn lessened air intake and lessened blood flow? IOW, choking?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> it depends on how much the dogs pull...as to if it chokes them or not


Yes definately but i do think some people exagerate on the whole choking thing...


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Slip leads give alot more control than a normal collar and lead. We use them in kennels all the time because they are simple, quick and easy and give more control.
> 
> They do not choke dogs at all, if they choked dogs then most dogs would be dead by now with the amount of people who use them. People always say omg thats going to choke the dog and cut of its airway.. Hmm yer alright, it takes a hell of alot to choke a dog. So definately dont agree with anyone saying that as it is not the case because i doubt all the people who use them want to choke their dog.


You're missing the distinction between using one with a dog that pulls, and using one as a quick on/off collar at agility etc. If you're dog doesn't pull there's no problem, as GoldenShadow points out.

Ok so TECHNICALLY it doesn't choke a pulling dog  However, it puts excess pressure on the neck, causing the dog to wheeze, splutter etc. Unlike a flat collar it keeps getting tighter around the dog's neck. How is this humane?


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Yes definately but i do think some people exagerate on the whole choking thing...


Yes, Im sure all those dogs with collapsed tracheas and broken hyoid bones were exaggerating.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I have to agree with those that say that a slip lead is very effective when used correctly. The problem is when they aren't. Put on in the right way and used with a dog where both the owner and dog know what is expected they are fine. As I said before - my old bitch was calm and walked to heel fabulously and I always used one. Mia is a different kettle of fish and was a massive puller when we got her from the rescue so I used a harness. I have been using a slip on her to get from the pub to her exercise paddock so she knows that's what we are doing and she is fine but would never use it on walks. I am now going to work on teaching her to walk on a slip because she did so well today, but won't take her off the property with one until I am sure she knows the rules.
I don't think a slip is the answer to stopping bad behaviour but it is a great tool when used correctly on a dog that understands what it's for too.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Do slip leads not tighten around the dogs neck the more you or the dog pulls?
> Do they not have unlimited tightening potential?
> 
> Given that dogs do indeed have an airway and blood vessels, not to mention other important structures in their neck, does it not stand to reason that something tightening around their neck will cause constriction of these structures and in turn lessened air intake and lessened blood flow? IOW, choking?


A dog would have to pull for a hell of a long time to be choked. Sorry but dont agree. Its a lead... And any normal person would not use it on a dog who pulled extremely execsively as they would get a headcollor/harness. I definately tjink the choking thing is exagerated. Sorry but ive used them on all dogs which pull and dont pull, in rescue shelters on various types of dogs and never came across a dog choking or having issues


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> Yes definately but i do think some people exagerate on the whole choking thing...


If my husband had his hands round my neck tightly ..I would say he was choking me...


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Yes, Im sure all those dogs with collapsed tracheas and broken hyoid bones were exaggerating.


Ok well the amount of dogs ive used them on ive never came across that... Again exageration in my opinion.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> I, too, use a slip lead for agility and understand it's easy to get on and off. What I didn't understand was the 'more control' bit. It seems like using a slip lead as a 'training aid' is just a prettier way of choking your dog into behaving.


I agree 100%

We have one but use it to walk 10m to go pee at 23:00 at night. I would never use one for a proper walk - Wouldnt use a lead or collar which is not restricted in how tight it can go.

I believe they were originally for gun dog types (Correct me if im wrong) as its easy to slip on / off and dog doesnt need a collar (which can get caught).

Not something I would personally use reguarly much prefer a good fitting collar whether fixed or 1/2 check


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> A dog would have to pull for a hell of a long time to be choked. Sorry but dont agree. Its a lead... *And any normal person would not use it on a dog who pulled extremely execsively *as they would get a headcollor/harness. I definately tjink the choking thing is exagerated. Sorry but ive used them on all dogs which pull and dont pull, in rescue shelters on various types of dogs and never came across a dog choking or having issues


but they do and I am sure lots of us have seen a dog pulling so much wearing one..you can hear every breath it tries to take


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> but they do and I am sure lots of us have seen a dog pulling so much wearing one..you can hear every breath it tries to take


Yes true but ive also seen that with dogs wearing normal collars and clip leads.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> Yes true but ive also seen that with dogs wearing normal collars and clip leads.


true....

but ....a slip lead will tighten as tight as it possibly can.. at least a collar has a limit


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Ok well the amount of dogs ive used them on ive never came across that... Again exageration in my opinion.


But unless you x-rayed the dog, or had a vet examine the dog after each intentional or unintentional tightening or jerk on the leash, you wouldnt know if the dog suffered either injury. 
I know a lot of people who think their dogs developed a collapsed trachea because of old age. Never occurred to them for a second than a lifetime of pulling (however mildly) on a collar may have contributed or directly caused the damage to the trachea.


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## CaveDweller (Jul 19, 2012)

I rarely use one (not on my pup but on my older collie). I mainly keep it as a spare for emergencies as it has come in handy a couple times when out on walks when I have come across a few strays. It's also handy if I just want to quickly put a lead on without putting his collar on first, i don't keep their collars on in the house.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

This has been a very helpful thread. I didn't understand much about slip leads but now I get it. Rather alarming that it was a 'trainer' who originally recommended that I use a slip lead on Dex.......:frown5:


I will definitely be sticking with the headcolllar and double-ended lead!


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2012)

Imagine, if you were a dog, having a slip lead around your neck. You move ahead a little and it tightens. You go a bit faster to get away from the thing strangling you, and it tightens more. You keep trying to get away but it keeps strangling you, you can't breathe and can't run fast enough to escape it...

WHY would you do that to your dog?


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

To try and suggest that slip leads are any different to choke chains is naive. They are no different to choke chains apart from the material.

They are fine for dogs which DO NOT PULL and are well behaved on the lead.

They can be downright dangerous and damaging to dogs that do pull and are reactive.

Dogs can also slip out of slip leads easily if you are not paying attention and the lead is loose.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I have been told that when using a choke chain/slip lead on a dog who is pulling, be it because he is reactive etc.. causes a lack of oxgen and hence can cause an adrenaline rush..making the dog worse ..


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> I have been told that when using a choke chain/slip lead on a dog who is pulling, be it because he is reactive etc.. causes a lack of oxgen and hence can cause an adrenaline rush..making the dog worse ..


jusst adding that's why i now use a harness and a collar with a double ended lead...if he pulls because of a dog...I hold on to the harness bit, not the coller, the rest of the time we do loose lead


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

I don't think it's fair to say choke chains and slip leads are the same thing. I love my slip leads but I would never use a choke chain! It DOES matter what material is used - chain is certainly much more damaging and painful to the dog. 

Regardless of material though I don't think any dog should be allowed to pull with its neck - on a slip lead OR collar and lead.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I have a reactive golden retriever and I have never got to the stage where she was being choked/deprived of oxygen. She walks ok on the lead, it was used for when she'd react to another dog and I did the correction by pulling sideways on the neck, and immediately releasing. Its when they start pulling and the owner just pulls back on the lead, which is then when harm is caused.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

To put some balance to the discussion, harnesses can also be dangerous. 

Because one local owner didn't have the skill/patience/knowledge (whatever) to train her dog to walk to heel on a loose lead she had it fitted with a harness.

She once lost her dog for quite some time, and it was found to be trapped in the undergrowth because the harness had been snagged up on some branches.

The lucky dog was 'saved' because another dog found it and started barking to alert his and the trapped dog's owners.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

Any piece of equipment can be dangerous when used incorrectly with dogs. A slip lead, normal lead and collar, harness, head collars, muzzles and so on. 

When used correctly they are all useful, safe and work well on certain dogs. My dogs have slip leads and they work great as i know how to use them correctly. Also my gencon which i use on my dogs when pulling, because i know how to use this it works well for me an my dogs. 

Ive seen various pieces of equipment used incorectly by un taught owners, but i definately think that every piece is useful and safe when used appropriately.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

samuelsmiles said:


> To put some balance to the discussion, harnesses can also be dangerous.
> 
> Because one local owner didn't have the skill/patience/knowledge (whatever) to train her dog to walk to heel on a loose lead she had it fitted with a harness.
> 
> ...


Harnesses "can" be dangerous like any piece of equipment can if used incorrectly, but it is safe to say that there are larger risks associated with the misuse of certain items over others.

You are suggesting that harnesses are comparable in danger to slip leads because you know a dog wearing one that got trapped in a bush? I hate to break it to you but dogs get trapped in bushes in regular collars all of the time. Frankly I would rather my dog was trapped in a bush via its harness than via its neck, potentially strangling itself trying to get free.

Please do not assume that those who choose to use harnesses do not have the skill/patience/knowledge to train their dog to walk on a loose lead. Vets, behaviourists and experts on canine physiology nearly always recommend the use of harnesses over a conventional collar for a multitude of reasons. COMFORT and SAFETY being first and and foremost.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

Tacey said:


> I don't think it's fair to say choke chains and slip leads are the same thing. I love my slip leads but I would never use a choke chain! It DOES matter what material is used - chain is certainly much more damaging and painful to the dog.
> 
> Regardless of material though I don't think any dog should be allowed to pull with its neck - on a slip lead OR collar and lead.


Have you tried putting a choke chain around your neck and pulling it tight? and done the same with a rope lead? trust me, they are equally as painful and uncomfortable.

Material is irrelevant when they both produce the same choking action. They ARE the same thing.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

so if you were using a slip lead..would you have a collar on also? reason I'm asking is because of id.tags or would you have the tag on the slip lead?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> so if you were using a slip lead..would you have a collar on also? reason I'm asking is because of id.tags or would you have the tag on the slip lead?


Mine have their collar on too, as they go off lead so when i tak the slip lead off they need their collar and ID tag


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I occasionally use a slip lead on Zippe, put the one I use has a 'stop' on it so it doesn't keep tightening so it acts more like a half check as well as the noraml 'stop' you get that stops the lead getting to loose.

I wouldn't use a 'normal' slip lead on him because he has a tendency to pull and is so stupid he would keep pulling until he srangled himself 

I got the lead from [email protected] and I believe it's a waignrights one, very nice quality.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I've just got a kumfi harness for Kes and if its ease of getting something on her when needed having this harness on is definitely the best I've come across. Harnesses are great for grabbing hold of it a dog is about to bolt, and this one was a padded handle on the top so it's comfy to hold on to her for however long it takes. It also has multiple d-rings so you can choose where to attach the lead or double lead to. I'd find a slip lead far too much hassle to try and get over her.


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

WeimyLady said:


> Have you tried putting a choke chain around your neck and pulling it tight? and done the same with a rope lead? trust me, they are equally as painful and uncomfortable.
> 
> Material is irrelevant when they both produce the same choking action. They ARE the same thing.


I disagree. I don't understand why you think material is irrelevant... chain is specifically used because it hurts.

The whole point of a choke chain is to choke the dog. This is not the point of a slip lead - a slip lead is just a lead that can be slipped over the head without needing to be connected to a collar. NEITHER should be used on a dog that pulls.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

Tacey said:


> I disagree. I don't understand why you think material is irrelevant... chain is specifically used because it hurts.
> 
> The whole point of a choke chain is to choke the dog. This is not the point of a slip lead - a slip lead is just a lead that can be slipped over the head without needing to be connected to a collar. NEITHER should be used on a dog that pulls.


The rope lead is also used by gundog handlers/trainers etc specifically because it hurts. Why do you think gundog trainers recommend that the slip lead is situated at the top of the neck just below the ears? because that is the most sensitive part of the neck and as you might imagine, any pressure there is very painful to the dog. To avoid the painful pressure against the neck, the dog stops pulling.


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## LeeM018 (Aug 26, 2010)

WeimyLady said:


> The rope lead is also used by gundog handlers/trainers etc specifically because it hurts. Why do you think gundog trainers recommend that the slip lead is situated at the top of the neck just below the ears?


Actually, Gundog handlers _specifically_ use slip leads because they represent the most efficient way of loosing and reattaching a lead to a working animal.

The behind the ears method you talk of is practiced by some handlers but you're being disingenuous to suggest that it is a prime reason for using slip leads on Gundogs.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

WeimyLady said:


> Harnesses "can" be dangerous like any piece of equipment can if used incorrectly, but it is safe to say that there are larger risks associated with the misuse of certain items over others.
> 
> You are suggesting that harnesses are comparable in danger to slip leads because you know a dog wearing one that got trapped in a bush? I hate to break it to you but dogs get trapped in bushes in regular collars all of the time. Frankly I would rather my dog was trapped in a bush via its harness than via its neck, potentially strangling itself trying to get free.
> 
> Please do not assume that those who choose to use harnesses do not have the skill/patience/knowledge to train their dog to walk on a loose lead. *Vets, behaviourists and experts on canine physiology nearly always recommend the use of harnesses over a conventional collar for a multitude of reasons. COMFORT and SAFETY being first and and foremost*.


Well, what's more comfortable and safe than having your dog walk beside you on a slip lead that's loose. It's quick to get off, quick to get on and just hangs there......as though there is no lead attached. I would have thought that's the ultimate in comfort and safety.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

samuelsmiles said:


> Well, what's more comfortable and safe than having your dog walk beside you on a slip lead that's loose. It's quick to get off, quick to get on and just hangs there......as though there is no lead attached. I would have thought that's the ultimate in comfort and safety.


If something spooks your dog though a good harness won't tighten round its neck?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Show leads are the same as slip leads and as long as the dog doesn't pull they do no harm, are quick and easy to put on and the dog cannot back out of them. They are ideal for a dog like a Mal who's neck is often broader than it's head, collars can easily be slipped out of which is far more dangerous than using a slip lead. You don't see well behaved dogs in the show ring being hurt by their slip leads and neither are any dogs who are good lead walkers. 

Can't stand them being used to train a pulling dog though, that is definitely cruel!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i sometimes use a leather slip for showing, it doesn't cut in the ruff.As some else mentions "wilkos" ones are great value for money.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I am surprised that someone who gives the impression they own gundogs would advocate a harness and talk tosh about slip leads. That's the exact opposite of any gundog person I have ever met.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I use Ancol. I would never buy another brand of rope slip lead.

I use one on Pippa. I know its controversial at her age, but she doesn't pull so it is no different from any other collar. She is going to gundog training soon and she is required to wear a slip lead.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

samuelsmiles said:


> Well, what's more comfortable and safe than having your dog walk beside you on a slip lead that's loose. It's quick to get off, quick to get on and just hangs there......as though there is no lead attached. I would have thought that's the ultimate in comfort and safety.


Absolutely, PROVIDED the dog does not pull.

I see some dogs gasping for air making the most awful noises as they pull against rope leads.



Emmastace said:


> I am surprised that someone who gives the impression they own gundogs would advocate a harness and talk tosh about slip leads. That's the exact opposite of any gundog person I have ever met.


Why does owning a gundog breed mean you have to advocate slip leads, given that probably 98% of gundogs are kept solely as pets and never do a days work in their lives?

If you have a dog who is reactive or walks less than perfectly on a lead, a harness is far kinder, fact.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

gundog trainers/gamekeepers etc use slipleads as when a dog is working a collar could get caught and the dog could potentially choke...but they still need a lead so slipleads came along...nothing to do with pain 

Tummel is quite bad for pulling on a flat collar but he walks very nicely on a sliplead....unfortunately during the move i lost mine so need a new one, i personally love slipleads as they are so easy to get on/off, i just carry Tummels collar in my pocket until i need it


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I use leather slip leads from Contender gundogs, as every day leads and if I'm showing, Natasha has a couple of different sizes and colours available to match requirements. You can get flat leather slip leads, but I prefer the rolled leather. 

For those who say slip leads are worse than a flat collar, I disagree, if a dog pulls against a flat collar it still chokes itself, after all, the pressure is applied to the area where their trachea is, even if there is a gap at the back of the collar, what use is that for breathing? The only difference with a flat collar is whether it is wide enough to disperse the pressure of the dog pulling, which is why in manwork when the dog is being gee'd up to pull against the collar, it's best to use a wide leather collar so they don't choke themselves. I would imagine the majority of every day collars people use have the same potential to choke a dog that pulls hard enough, in which case it's not a problem with the equipment, but the heelwork training. 

My 14 week old pup has a slip lead on, she hasn't choked herself yet, her heelwork isn't the best, but we're working on it. The only way they can back out is if their heelwork is so nice the slip lead becomes loose enough to allow it to come off if they drop their head, which does occasionally happen, but then I don't walk my dogs along the road very often, I don't need to where I live.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

ballybee said:


> gundog trainers/gamekeepers etc use slipleads as when a dog is working a collar could get caught and the dog could potentially choke...but they still need a lead so slipleads came along...*nothing to do with pain*
> 
> Tummel is quite bad for pulling on a flat collar but he walks very nicely on a sliplead....unfortunately during the move i lost mine so need a new one, i personally love slipleads as they are so easy to get on/off, i just carry Tummels collar in my pocket until i need it


If that is the case, why do so many gundog trainers recommend the collars are placed up against the ears when training the dog? you obviously haven't had much experience in the gundog world if you believe that slip leads are never used to cause pain.

Why do you think your dog walks better on slip lead over a regular collar? because when they pull on the slip lead it caused PAIN which then stops when they cease to pull. Your dog is one of the smart ones. Many dogs do not make the connection between the noose around their neck, pulling and pain, which is why you see some dogs with bulging eyes rasping for breath because they don't make the connection.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I don't 'like' slip leads. Like others I don't like anything that has unlimited tightening possibilities. I don't really 'like' flat collars that much either, as in my experience with reactive dogs, they can often not be very helpful when the dog is verging towards getting over threshold or even just mildly stressed. One of my relative's rescue dogs was walked on a slip lead in his previous home and has a collapsed trachea, which he really suffers with. 
Both of my dogs are walked on padded harnesses (one fleece lined, the other neoprene padded), unless they are working (at agility for instance) in which case they are on a regular (padded) flat collar with their usual double ended lead. 
I often use my double ended lead (the larger handle area) to allow two points of contact when walking/working on a collar, by slipping the fixed end/longer length handle over the dogs head, so that it rests in between the chest and lower neck (with other end of lead clipped to the collar). This sort of thing is practised a lot in T-touch type techniques and can be quite calming in taking the stress away from the collar and much more comfortable. 

I do own some slip leads though, which I have in the boot of my car for the strays that come into the rescue I volunteer at, as the poor wee mites often come in with totally nothing (no collar etc, often tied to the gates with some string). Slip lead is literally used to get them in (without invading their space too much initially until we 'make friends'), then we sort them out with a collar etc ASAP.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> If that is the case, why do so many gundog trainers recommend the collars are placed up against the ears when training the dog? you obviously haven't had much experience in the gundog world if you believe that slip leads are never used to cause pain.
> 
> Why do you think your dog walks better on slip lead over a regular collar? because when they pull on the slip lead it caused PAIN which then stops when they cease to pull. Your dog is one of the smart ones. Many dogs do not make the connection between the noose around their neck, pulling and pain, which is why you see some dogs with bulging eyes rasping for breath because they don't make the connection.


All of the gundog trainers I know advocate training heelwork by position, not by causing pain with a slip lead or any other collar or lead for that matter. It doesn't help one bit when people post making sweeping generalisations that assume that all gundog trainers advocate this type of training, when that simply isn't true. In fact on the training session with my flatcoat on Sunday, I was told off for not having a loose enough lead, so that I could correct her when she wasn't in the heel position, which makes a mockery of that assumption.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

And just how do you CORRECT a dog on a loose lead. What action do you take with the lead to CORRECT your dog? Why does a lead have to be loose to administer a CORRECTION?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BECAUSE you can't CORRECT a dog for doing something right, only when it gets something WRONG, I would have thought that was obvious, and no need for random capitalisations tbh!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> I am surprised that someone who gives the impression they own gundogs would advocate a harness and talk tosh about slip leads. That's the exact opposite of any gundog person I have ever met.


So applying your logic, would you be equally surprised if huskies, Malamutes etc wore collars instead of harnesses?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> BECAUSE you can't CORRECT a dog for doing something right, only when it gets something WRONG, I would have thought that was obvious, and no need for random capitalisations tbh!


You have answered WHY but not HOW so HOW do you correct a dog using the loose slip lead?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> You have answered WHY but not HOW so HOW do you correct a dog using the loose slip lead?


Either verbally, or change direction, on some instances I will push the dog away gently with my knee to encourage it to come in closer to me, why, what did you think I would do?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Either verbally, or change direction, on some instances I will push the dog away gently with my knee to encourage it to come in closer to me, why, what did you think I would do?


If you use your voice a lead is superfluous, and it matters not whether it is loose or tight does it? 

Pushing your dog AWAY from you, does not require a lead either, either tight or loose.

So how does a tight lead prevent you correcting your dog verbally?

I am trying to understand the logic of your instructor and yourself in the methods you apply to dog training.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> If you use your voice a lead is superfluous, and it matters not whether it is loose or tight does it?
> 
> Pushing your dog AWAY from you, does not require a lead either, either tight or loose.
> 
> ...


Because if you have a short lead so there is no slack, the dog can't make a mistake, if the dog does get too far ahead, or to one side, you have the option to use any of those methods to correct it. Initially I train pups without any lead whatsoever, to associate the word 'here' with the heel position, I don't use the word heel, I also use treats to encourage them to walk in the right position. I also don't aim for perfect obedience heelwork, just so that the dog walks along nicely without pulling for their sake and my back.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Tacey said:


> I disagree. I don't understand why you think material is irrelevant... chain is specifically used because it hurts.
> 
> The whole point of a choke chain is to choke the dog. This is not the point of a slip lead - a slip lead is just a lead that can be slipped over the head without needing to be connected to a collar. NEITHER should be used on a dog that pulls.


Whether or not you think the POINT of a choke chain is to choke and that of a slip lead is NOT, is irrelevant, both have entirely the same effect. Unless you believe rope does not burn or cut.

But neither should be used on a dog that pulls.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> So applying your logic, would you be equally surprised if huskies, Malamutes etc wore collars instead of harnesses?


I wasn't aware that there was any logic in that statement, certainly didn't intend there to be. My surprise was in what someone said not what they did so the Malamut question doesn't really apply.


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Whether or not you think the POINT of a choke chain is to choke and that of a slip lead is NOT, is irrelevant, both have entirely the same effect. Unless you believe rope does not burn or cut.
> 
> But neither should be used on a dog that pulls.


I don't think it has the same affect though. Chain is a much harsher material that can do a lot of damage very quickly... I suppose it depends on what the slip lead is made out of, but mine is not rope it is padded material.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Tacey said:


> I don't think it has the same affect though. Chain is a much harsher material that can do a lot of damage very quickly... I suppose it depends on what the slip lead is made out of, but mine is not rope it is padded material.


A hangman's noose isn't made out of chain, yet does the job very effectively and very quickly.

I don't object to slip leads at all provided a dog is non - reactive and does not pull.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I use slip leads on my two collies, never jerked a dog on them, never really had a dog have a right good pull on one from what I can remember - maybe once after a cat or something - both dogs walk next to me nicely whilst on them as they are only on them going from front door to the car, car to the front door and through any field with livestock (you just never know) or across a busy area - road, street, car park. Other than that they are never ona lead, in a collar, in a harness or connected to me in anyway other than my voice.

Cesar Milan uses slip leads so that is proof they are brilliant.

*grabs the popcorn and sits back to watch this tick over nicely


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

Tacey said:


> I don't think it has the same affect though. Chain is a much harsher material that can do a lot of damage very quickly... I suppose it depends on what the slip lead is made out of, but mine is not rope it is padded material.


It DOES have the same effect! BOTH materials choke indefinitely. BOTH materials create the same amount of pressure on the neck. It does not matter which material you think is "harsher" when the output of pain and pressure is exactly the same regardless. You are taking the viewpoint that because a chain physically looks "harsher" to our eyes, that it therefore must apply less pressure and pain than rope which is softer.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Eh, getting away from the more heated arguments:

Terence is walked on a half-check or semi-slip collar. However, I also have a slip-lead that I put across his chest (some other poster mentioned something similar) so that he does not pull, when he gets a bit over-excited.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

So many hypothetical scenarios being given to argue for and against slip leads here (including me.)

My advice would be to work bloody hard to get your dog to heel nicely, and then the use of a slip lead is the safest way to control your dog. 

If he is off lead and needs to be got back on lead quickly, for whatever reason, it can be done in a flash, instead of fiddling about with the clip on ones.

All the talk of choking dogs on slip leads is nonsense. The only dogs I see choking are the ones dragging their owners along the street on normal collars and leads.


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

WeimyLady said:


> It DOES have the same effect! BOTH materials choke indefinitely. BOTH materials create the same amount of pressure on the neck. It does not matter which material you think is "harsher" when the output of pain and pressure is exactly the same regardless. You are taking the viewpoint that because a chain physically looks "harsher" to our eyes, that it therefore must apply less pressure and pain than rope which is softer.


I still disagree


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Yes me, i use one, no specific brand just ones I have picked up over the years as game shows, country shows, fairs and even ebay over the years


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dogless said:


> A hangman's noose isn't made out of chain, yet does the job very effectively and very quickly.
> 
> I don't object to slip leads at all provided a dog is non - reactive and does not pull.


I've heard of pups getting tangled up in leads that have been hung up, and managing to kill themselves without a noose effect, simply because they couldn't free themselves. You don't need a slip lead or a choke chain to cause a dog to put unecessary pressure on the trachea, and a lot of the collars people use for walking their dogs day to day are narrow enough to cause damage to the trachea for a dog that pulls. The only dog I've ever used a harness on was an old rescue who had no lead manners, at her age I wasn't going to try and start from scratch with her, but she would pull so hard, and had a deformed soft palate that she did often choke herself, so a harness was the best option. Yes it allowed her to pull, but she wasn't that strong, and given that she was reportedly 17 when I rescued her, it was a bit late to start heelwork really. But the point is you do not need to use a slip lead or choke chain to choke a dog, and it's wrong to make the insinuation that flat collars won't have the same effect, it very much depends on the width of the collar and the size of the dog of course! 

I think the OP's dog from what I've seen them post over the couple of years they've posted about him, wouldn't suit a slip lead at all, and I'm not sure why their trainer thinks it would work better than what they're doing now, but I object to the generalisations about slip leads and gundog trainers. My dogs are by no means perfect, and I'm certainly not a perfect handler, but I wouldn't use a method I thought would harm my dogs, either mentally or physically, and they seem to be pretty good all round characters with fairly good training (most of the time) as anyone who's met them will vouch.

Edited to add, just as a note, a friend who is a dog behaviourist/trainer has observed different types of head collars, and those which cause *pressure* are actually painful for dogs to wear, they work by causing pressure or *pain* when the dog pulls against them, yet nobody seems to find anything wrong with haltis, gentle leaders or any of the other muzzle clamping devices that work this way. And edited again to add a link to her blog:

http://liziangel.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/head-collars.html


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Can't for the life of me understand why people are knocking slip leads, not that I have read all the posts!

And for the record anything tied around the neck MIGHT be uncomfortable if the dog pulls hard enough, even a leather collar


I know! we'll make it against the law to leash a dog eh! 

saying na more!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Cesar Milan uses slip leads so that is proof they are brilliant.
> 
> *grabs the popcorn and sits back to watch this tick over nicely


You terror! :arf: :nono: 

I'm not biting today :001_tt2:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

lemmsy said:


> You terror! :arf: :nono:
> 
> I'm not biting today :001_tt2:


oh go on


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've heard of pups getting tangled up in leads that have been hung up, and managing to kill themselves without a noose effect, simply because they couldn't free themselves. You don't need a slip lead or a choke chain to cause a dog to put unecessary pressure on the trachea, and a lot of the collars people use for walking their dogs day to day are narrow enough to cause damage to the trachea for a dog that pulls. The only dog I've ever used a harness on was an old rescue who had no lead manners, at her age I wasn't going to try and start from scratch with her, but she would pull so hard, and had a deformed soft palate that she did often choke herself, so a harness was the best option. Yes it allowed her to pull, but she wasn't that strong, and given that she was reportedly 17 when I rescued her, it was a bit late to start heelwork really. But the point is you do not need to use a slip lead or choke chain to choke a dog, and it's wrong to make the insinuation that flat collars won't have the same effect, it very much depends on the width of the collar and the size of the dog of course!
> 
> I think the OP's dog from what I've seen them post over the couple of years they've posted about him, wouldn't suit a slip lead at all, and I'm not sure why their trainer thinks it would work better than what they're doing now, but I object to the generalisations about slip leads and gundog trainers. My dogs are by no means perfect, and I'm certainly not a perfect handler, but I wouldn't use a method I thought would harm my dogs, either mentally or physically, and they seem to be pretty good all round characters with fairly good training (most of the time) as anyone who's met them will vouch.
> 
> ...


I do agree - just saying that you can choke with rope or chain. I don't object to them in the slightest used correctly.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> .
> 
> Edited to add, just as a note, a friend who is a dog behaviourist/trainer has observed different types of head collars, and those which cause *pressure* are actually painful for dogs to wear, they work by causing pressure or *pain* when the dog pulls against them, *yet nobody seems to find anything wrong with haltis, gentle leaders or any of the other muzzle clamping devices that work this way*. And edited again to add a link to her blog:
> 
> Dog Blog: Head-collars


I think you will find that most of us can see the pros and cons of all equipment including head halther and slip leads not just in isolation but with individual dogs and of course handlers.

Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion?

But of course you are not immune to sweeping generalisations yourself when it suits you re the comment on *muzzle clamping devices*, as of course, not all head halters work in this way if used correctly by kind, owners. Just as not all people who use slip leads use them like garottes.

ROFLMAO


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I do agree - just saying that you can choke with rope or chain. I don't object to them in the slightest used correctly.


I know  I was just trying to make the point that it's not the fact that it's a slip lead, or even a choke chain that's the problem, it's how it's used. And the only way of preventing misuse of any piece of training equipment is to prevent people owning dogs really.

The amount of times I see people with young dogs with haltis on that are squashing their face out of kilter, and have to bite my tongue; or very young large breed pups on harnesses pulling away because people either don't know how to train a pup to heel, and don't know where to find out how to achieve basic training with them and their pup, as it's usually the handler that needs training, so they buy something to cut out the training but the problem is still there really.

Anyway, way OT and since my cuppa's mashed I'm off back to work!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Liz appears to be a dog psychologist (whatever that is) rather than a behaviourist with a CCAB?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I think you will find that most of us can see the pros and cons of all equipment including head halther and slip leads not just in isolation but with individual dogs and of course handlers.
> 
> Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion?
> 
> ...


Are you trying to be provocative?

I've provided a link, read it if you want to understand more about muzzle clamping devices. I think you'll be surprised how many people don't understand how they work, and how the wording disguises the way they work, ie continued pressure to a dogs' muzzle is painful, so the dog learns not to pull, but also shows body language that they are uncomfortable wearing the device, which is what this particular behaviourist has written in their blog. So when you see packaging for a head collar that works by causing pressure, you can assume that it's not comfortable for the dog to wear, perhaps some people don't mind their dogs being uncomfortable, I do mind, and prefer to use methods that teach the dog without them being uncomfortable or in pain.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you trying to be provocative?
> 
> I've provided a link, read it if you want to understand more about muzzle clamping devices. I think you'll be surprised how many people don't understand how they work, and how the wording disguises the way they work, ie continued pressure to a dogs' muzzle is painful, so the dog learns not to pull, but also shows body language that they are uncomfortable wearing the device, which is what this particular behaviourist has written in their blog. So when you see packaging for a head collar that works by causing pressure, you can assume that it's not comfortable for the dog to wear, perhaps some people don't mind their dogs being uncomfortable, I do mind, and prefer to use methods that teach the dog without them being uncomfortable or in pain.


Collars can cause continued to pressure to the trachea, slip leads can cause continued pressure to the trachea and behind the ears.

So can we assume that they are not comfortable for the dog to wear? Because I prefer to use methods that teach dogs without them being uncomfortable or in pain.

That is why you will NEVER see in any of MY posts the need to CORRECT a dog!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Collars can cause continued to pressure to the trachea, slip leads can cause continued pressure to the trachea and behind the ears.
> 
> So can we assume that they are not comfortable for the dog to wear? Because I prefer to use methods that teach dogs without them being uncomfortable or in pain.
> 
> *That is why you will NEVER see in any of MY posts the need to CORRECT a dog!*


So what do you do if your dog "misbehaves" (for want of a better word)? :confused1:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> So what do you do if your dog "misbehaves" (for want of a better word)? :confused1:


Give me an example of misbehaviour.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The rope lead is also used by gundog handlers/trainers etc specifically because it hurts.


What a load of rubbish 

Gundogs do not wear collars so slip leads are perfect to let on and off lead quickly. I wonder about your experience of gundogs too! Any half decent trainer will never get to the stage where their dog pulls so it doesn't apply.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

terencesmum said:


> So what do you do if your dog "misbehaves" (for want of a better word)? :confused1:


You accept the fact that you set the dog up to fail. You ask your dog for alternative behaviour, you reward the desirable alternative and avoid rehearsal of the undesirable behaviour. 
Then rather the focusing on what you want your dog NOT to do, you consider what you DO want him to do in the same situation and you train and heavily reward that instead.

No unpleasant punishers/aversives= 'better', less conflicted dog-owner relationship 

Simples


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Give me an example of misbehaviour.


Well, say the dog reacts to a cat and lunges at it? 
Or dog jumps up at child.

(Sorry, am a bit crappy at making these up  )


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Well, say the dog reacts to a cat and lunges at it?
> Or dog jumps up at child.
> 
> (Sorry, am a bit crappy at making these up  )


My dogs never jump up at children.

If my dog went to lunge at a cat I would tell it to sit.

No correction needed.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> *My dogs never jump up at children.*
> 
> If my dog went to lunge at a cat I would tell it to sit.
> 
> No correction needed.


That's not a very helpful comment. My dog doesn't jump up at children either, but I can still tell somebody how I achieved that.
Incidentally, we also tell him to sit, but I would call that a correction. Semantics?? (Genuine question, by the way)


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> My dogs never jump up at children.
> 
> If my dog went to lunge at a cat I would tell it to sit.
> 
> No correction needed.


So what if another dog attacks your dog?

and we can only assume you are not walking your dog on a public highway!

Correct me if I am wrong but is it not an offence to walk a dog NOT under control on th public highway! And a dog not leashed, no matter how well behaved it could be termed not under full control.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

That said smokey bear I have nothing but pure admiration when seeing a well trained dog at work, which yours obviously are.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> Well, say the dog reacts to a cat and lunges at it?
> Or dog jumps up at child.
> 
> (Sorry, am a bit crappy at making these up  )


Management. If the dog doesnt know an alternate behavior to lunging at a cat, you keep cat and dog separated until you have taught (through positively reinforcing them) behaviors that are incompatible with lunging at a cat.

If a cat drops from the sky in front of your dog, you go in to crisis control, but thats not learning, thats simply preventing a crisis. Much in the same way I would grab the arm of a toddler (or inattentive person) who is about to step in front of a moving vehicle. I might very well be rough about how I grab the arm too. But its important to understand that Im not teaching anything in this instance. Im simply preventing a crisis.

Its the whole what do you do when youve driven off a cliff question. Rather than ask that, why not ask how to steer the car so you dont drive off the embankment to begin with?


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

DT said:


> So what if another dog attacks your dog?
> 
> and we can only assume you are not walking your dog on a public highway!
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but is it not an offence to walk a dog NOT under control on th public highway! And a dog not leashed, no matter how well behaved it could be termed not under full control.


TBH I don't think that smokeybear is saying she doesn't use leads or restraints on her dogs. However, her post was in response to a question from another poster about alternatives to using corrections/ punishers


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Management. If the dog doesnt know an alternate behavior to lunging at a cat, you keep cat and dog separated until you have taught (through positively reinforcing them) behaviors that are incompatible with lunging at a cat.
> 
> If a cat drops from the sky in front of your dog, you go in to crisis control, but thats not learning, thats simply preventing a crisis. Much in the same way I would grab the arm of a toddler (or inattentive person) who is about to step in front of a moving vehicle. I might very well be rough about how I grab the arm too. But its important to understand that Im not teaching anything in this instance. Im simply preventing a crisis.
> 
> *Its the whole what do you do when youve driven off a cliff question. Rather than ask that, why not ask how to steer the car so you dont drive off the embankment to begin with?*


Haha, I love that!

I would say that I have a semantics block here then. I agree with what you are saying about the training and also about crisis management, but in my book I would always call the alternative behaviour a correction (like sit instead of jumping). Not proper "trainer speak", I guess.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

lemmsy said:


> TBH I don't think that smokeybear is saying she doesn't use leads or restraints on her dogs. However, her post was in response to a question from another poster about alternatives to using corrections/ punishers


Thank you for that
i have the upmost repsect for how well smokey bears dogs are trained and envy here,
But alas dogs trained to the standard of SB.s i fear are few and far between


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> If my dog went to lunge at a cat I would tell it to sit.


I only have the reactions of a mere mortal so if a cat came out unexpectedly in front of my long dog, there would be a tightening of the lead, I can guarantee that but that is in a flat collar and lead not slip. In fact if anythign small and furry makes a move she on to it like a shot. SHe is far quicker than me at latching onto stuff. Doesn't do it near main roads though, weird.

ETA: What if the dog wasn't very good at sitting and this scenario arose? Surely the dog would pull tight on the lead i fit had an aversion to cats?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> That's not a very helpful comment. My dog doesn't jump up at children either, but I can still tell somebody how I achieved that.
> Incidentally, we also tell him to sit, but I would call that a correction. Semantics?? (Genuine question, by the way)


It is the same thing.

If you have to CORRECT a dog (for me that is just a euphemism for punish) then one has to assume several things.

Correction implies the dog made a mistake, so how do we know the dog know what is and what is not a mistake? If a dog does not know how to do something ergo he cannot avoid making mistakes and thus if I felt the need to correct the dog the dog would be corrected each time it made the error.

Is this fair?

It also implies that I have taught it something that it has deliberately chosen to disobey.

If my dog feels the need to disobey, surely the correction needs to be made to me?

Cueing a dog to sit as you see it want to do something else is not a correction, it is giving it a cue to do something other than what it is planning.

If you cue *come *or *down *as your dog is running towards a cliff/motorway/abyss are you correcting it or giving it a cue to do something other than what it is doing?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Collars can cause continued to pressure to the trachea, slip leads can cause continued pressure to the trachea and behind the ears.
> 
> So can we assume that they are not comfortable for the dog to wear? Because I prefer to use methods that teach dogs without them being uncomfortable or in pain.
> 
> That is why you will NEVER see in any of MY posts the need to CORRECT a dog!


If you've got a slip lead up round your dogs ears it's in the wrong place, we already covered that bit, remember; and despite what some people believe, gundog trainers do NOT advocate that method en masse, as I said in a previous post those gundog trainers I know, DO advocate training a heel position by encouraging the correct position from being a pup, and correcting the dog without harsh methods as they grow, in the ways I described, to encourage them to stay in the heel position. Your dogs can be as perfect as you think they are, that's fine, and you can keep to your methods to train working trials stuff, that's fine too, but I like my dogs the way they are, and I like the way the methods I've learnt to use to train them work with my dogs, I'm happy with my LESS than PERFECT skills and LESS than PERFECT dogs and I don't particularly want to change to someone else's methods just because they OBVIOUSLY think they are better. 

Of course I could make sweeping generalisations about working trials trainers, I was told a few of the harsher methods when I used to go to training, but then I don't like to make sweeping generalisations about people, and understand that there's more than one way to train a dog, and believe it or not, lots of different ways of training work, without having to resort to being cruel.

Of course if people want to believe I beat my dogs round the head with their leads that's up to them, there's only a handful of people off this forum who know me personally and who have met my dogs in any case, and to be perfectly frank, I couldn't care less what people who know nothing about me or my dogs believe :thumbup:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

If as slip lead is used soley for the reason that it will tighten around the dogs neck if the dog gives a behaviour that you do not want(i.e pulling) is wrong.

slip leads, non pull harnesses, lupi harness , when used to correct a behaviour by punishing the dog which some people do use them for....is wrong 

A well trained dog where there is no chance of a sudden lunge, pull etc they are fine to use.

all of the above is my opinion


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you've got a slip lead up round your dogs ears it's in the wrong place, we already covered that bit, remember; and despite what some people believe, gundog trainers do NOT advocate that method en masse, as I said in a previous post those gundog trainers I know, DO advocate training a heel position by encouraging the correct position from being a pup, and correcting the dog without harsh methods as they grow, in the ways I described, to encourage them to stay in the heel position. Your dogs can be as perfect as you think they are, that's fine, and you can keep to your methods to train working trials stuff, that's fine too, but I like my dogs the way they are, and I like the way the methods I've learnt to use to train them work with my dogs, I'm happy with my LESS than PERFECT skills and LESS than PERFECT dogs and I don't particularly want to change to someone else's methods just because they OBVIOUSLY think they are better.
> 
> Of course I could make sweeping generalisations about working trials trainers, I was told a few of the harsher methods when I used to go to training, but then I don't like to make sweeping generalisations about people, and understand that there's more than one way to train a dog, and believe it or not, lots of different ways of training work, without having to resort to being cruel.
> 
> Of course if people want to believe I beat my dogs round the head with their leads that's up to them, there's only a handful of people off this forum who know me personally and who have met my dogs in any case, and to be perfectly frank, I couldn't care less what people who know nothing about me or my dogs believe :thumbup:


Thank you for sharing. :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Thank you for sharing. :thumbup:


You are more than welcome, thank you for your random capitalisation and condescending replies


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You are more than welcome, thank you for your random capitalisation and condescending replies


Take no notice sl! obviously a dose of head up jacksy syndrome


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DT said:


> Take no notice sl! obviously a dose of head up jacksy syndrome


My skin's thicker than that DT


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> My skin's thicker than that DT


nuffings changed in my absence then


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DT said:


> nuffings changed in my absence then


Not really, I'm busier than ever before, so don't post quite as much as before but probably too much for some folk, oh, and I have the four now, with the home bred girl


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not really, I'm busier than ever before, so don't post quite as much as before but probably too much for some folk, oh, and I have the four now, with the home bred girl


Oh! i missed all that then Shall go off and look for some pictures of your latest edition! is she chocolate???


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You are more than welcome, thank you for your random capitalisation and condescending replies


I also find it very amusing that you have implied that I have made any sweeping generalisations about gundog trainers and their methods when any such allusions are consipicuous by their absence in my posts. 

Touch a nerve did we?

But your posts are an excellent example of Kelly's theory of personal constructs.


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