# Carrageenan in pet food



## Guest (Mar 7, 2019)

Edited for legal/confidentiality reasons, but Lily's Kitchen *uses a very small amount of undegraded carrageenan in its food*.

and says that:

*Carrageenan is common in many pet and human foods, though it is not a legal requirement that it is declared.*


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I would not feed a food with carrageenan added. I am sorry to hear one of the brands well liked in the UK is using this harmful additive. And watch out for agar-agar, which many companies have started using to replace carrageenan once people started to realize how bad it is. It's no better.

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/why-carrageenan-can-be-dangerous-to-your-pet/

https://littlebigcat.com/nutrition/carrageenan-a-common-pet-food-additive/
_
Researchers have discovered that carrageenan triggers the body to produce a cytokine (an intercellular messenger molecule) called Tumor Necrosis Factor alpha (TNF-⍺). This molecule stimulates inflammation, but also promote apoptosis (cell death). These opposing functions help maintain balance in the immune system, and they also play an crucial role in defense against pathogenic organisms such as bacteria.

On the other hand, TNF-⍺ is thought to be a causal factor in many chronic inflammatory diseases, such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), asthma, and autoimmune diseases, and cancer.

All types of carrageenan stimulate the production of TNF-⍺.
_
A number of foods (available in the US which is where I am, can't speak for UK) over the years have eliminated it, for the reasons stated in these articles. Many more make these same claims that Lily's is making. That is is okay.

it isn't.

If you must feed some foods with carrageenan, try to feed equally or more foods without..


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2019)

Thanks lorilu. I do rotate. My aim was to let the LK company know that pet owners who know a thing or two about nutrition are not recommending LK on well-known and influential forums due to carrageenan, and put that ball in their court.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shingigz said:


> Thanks lorilu. I do rotate. My aim was to let the LK company know that pet owners who know a thing or two about nutrition are not recommending LK on well-known and influential forums due to carrageenan, and put that ball in their court.


Yes, that is good! And that is how some companies (at least in the US) have come to remove carrageenan from their foods. Stay on them!


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Oh dear! I was just considering trying mine on this, after it appeared to be one of the better UK brands... Won't bother now! 

I really wish they'd stop sneaking weird stuff into otherwise decent food!  I had an issue with Grau containing cassia gum recently too, which my girl didn't get on with! I believe that is also used for 'thickening' purposes, as sounds to be the case with carrageenan...

Guessing I'm still safe with Animonda Carny and such, can't seem to see anything dodgy in there! 

The pet food situation in the UK is shocking, it makes me really mad! I spent a year living in France with my Domino and he had great quality, well-priced food from the local supermarket! :Meh


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Oh dear! I was just considering trying mine on this, after it appeared to be one of the better UK brands... Won't bother now!
> 
> I really wish they'd stop sneaking weird stuff into otherwise decent food!  I had an issue with Grau containing cassia gum recently too, which my girl didn't get on with! I believe that is also used for 'thickening' purposes, as sounds to be the case with carrageenan...
> 
> ...


If you're happy with LK prices, try the Miamor pate range from ZP. The tin pate is "looser" , some almost mousse (but can't remember which flavours) whereas the sachet pate has a fine firm texture


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> If you're happy with LK prices, try the Miamor pate range from ZP. The tin pate is "looser" , some almost mousse (but can't remember which flavours) whereas the sachet pate has a fine firm texture


Yeah, I've thought about trying those too, will add some to my next order. :Happy At the moment they eat AC and Smilla on a daily basis, and I swap out the Smilla for something more exciting every few days - they've had Catz Finefood, Wild Freedom, MAC's and Feringa so far.

I was looking for something in a smaller tin/packet with a slightly different consistency as a 'treat food' (but complete, so I can switch it for one of their meals and not end up with a full open tin), and was also looking for something I could buy locally in case I ever struggle to order in time, etc. LK seemed to fit the bill on both... How on earth would we feed our cats without zooplus though?!


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Yeah, I've thought about trying those too, will add some to my next order. :Happy At the moment they eat AC and Smilla on a daily basis, and I swap out the Smilla for something more exciting every few days - they've had Catz Finefood, Wild Freedom, MAC's and Feringa so far.
> 
> I was looking for something in a smaller tin/packet with a slightly different consistency as a 'treat food' (but complete, so I can switch it for one of their meals and not end up with a full open tin), and was also looking for something I could buy locally in case I ever struggle to order in time, etc. LK seemed to fit the bill on both... How on earth would we feed our cats without zooplus though?!


Another good one to try is Animonda Vom Feinsten for adult cats. Mine love it and the megapack works out quite reasonable


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Another one I'd planned to try, glad your cats would recommend it! 

Megapacks are good - I do like to stock up! :Happy


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Another one I'd planned to try, glad your cats would recommend it!
> 
> Megapacks are good - I do like to stock up! :Happy
> View attachment 396621


But start with a trial pack! You don't want loads of food clogging up space if they won't eat it


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## Annealise (Nov 29, 2015)

shingigz said:


> Here is the reply from Lily's Kitchen... The *bold* is my emphasis.
> 
> *Carrageenan is common in many pet and human foods, though it is not a legal requirement that it is declared.* However, we like to be as transparent as possible which is why we include it on our label.


So if Carrageenan doesn't have to be legally declared on products, this Is probably contained in other cat food that we are unaware of!!! It's enough to make me feed my kitten raw food.....

God knows what the really cheap pet food contains!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2019)

Amnealise said:


> So if Carrageenan doesn't have to be legally declared on products, this Is probably contained in other cat food that we are unaware of!!!
> 
> God knows what the really cheap pet food contains!


Those were exactly my thoughts... that maybe _all_ cat food, not just the cheap ones, contains either carrageenan or a similar thickener, otherwise maybe they would _also_ have a watery consistency.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> Those were exactly my thoughts... that maybe _all_ cat food, not just the cheap ones, contains either carrageenan or a similar thickener, otherwise maybe they would _also_ have a watery consistency.


Yes, worrying, and maybe worth making some enquiries... It seems that, so far, we know LK uses carrageenan as a thickener, Grau Gourmet Grain-Free uses cassia gum... Anyone have good enough German to send some emails?!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2019)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Yes, worrying, and maybe worth making some enquiries... It seems that, so far, we know LK uses carrageenan as a thickener, Grau Gourmet Grain-Free uses cassia gum... Anyone have good enough German to send some emails?!


You can just send them in English. Be brief and to the point. Many German's have good English skills. Which foods do you have in mind? I don't mind sending an email - it only takes minutes, eg:

Hello,

Please can you tell me the FULL ingredient list in x? My cat has a very sensitive digestion with some food allergies and intolerances. I would also like to know what thickening agents are used in x.

Danke dir,

X.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> You can just send them in English. Be brief and to the point. Many German's have good English skills. Which foods do you have in mind? I don't mind sending an email - it only takes minutes, eg:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...


Yes, perfect! I'm a linguist by trade, so feel some professional pressure to make an effort with the language lol... German isn't one of my languages, though - it would be a handy one to pick up for cat purposes I guess! 

I feed Animonda Carny and Smilla as their main foods at the moment, alongside some of the other zooplus ones on occasion - Catz Finefood, Wild Freedom, Feringa, MAC's... I feel a copy-paste job coming lol. :Happy


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2019)

I've just contacted Smilla. Animonda Carny is hard to find. I found their kontact form, but it won't let me enter anything in it.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> I've just contacted Smilla. Animonda Carny is hard to find. I found their kontact form, but it won't let me enter anything in it.


I emailed Smilla too lol, also Animonda, will report back if I hear anything!

Will work through the others I'm feeding, too.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Also emailed re Catz Finefood and Feringa - fun fact, Smilla and Feringa appear to be made by the same company, hadn't realised that! 

Not been able to track down contact details for Wild Freedom or MAC's as yet.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

And the award for first reply goes to Catz Finefood!  (emphasis mine)

"Thank you for your message.

You can find the detailed ingredients for each variety on our homepage like here for example:

https://www.catzfinefood.de/detail-catz-finefood-classic-no-3-gefluegel/

*Our catz finefood only contains natural gelatine as a thickener.
*
If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to contact us."


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Not what I wanted to hear - this is the response from Animonda! I've emailed for some clarification (e.g. is it included in all ranges, etc.)... 

Good Morning, 
we do have a lot of products containing one animal protein only. 
We are using carrageenan.

Best regards,

Your animonda-Team


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2019)

deleted


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> Reply from Smila:
> 
> "Thank you for your e-mail.
> 
> ...


Yes I had the same this morning re Smilla and Feringa (apparently the same company).

I'm crossing my fingers for a good response from them, or things are about to get expensive! 

I'm so mad about sneaky things that aren't listed! AC literally advertise by the fact that they have no added unnecessary extras! And why are they using this stuff anyway? Vegan alternative to gelatine? Cats aren't vegan! I feel much more comfortable with Catz Finefood's thickener... Will be price, I guess... this carrageenan must be cheap.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Not what I wanted to hear - this is the response from Animonda! I've emailed for some clarification (e.g. is it included in all ranges, etc.)...
> 
> Good Morning,
> we do have a lot of products containing one animal protein only.
> ...


:Woot:Woot:Woot:Woot:Woot Animonda Vom Feinsten is Ollie's favourite . And there's not many brands he'll eat:Banghead


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> :Woot:Woot:Woot:Woot:Woot Animonda Vom Feinsten is Ollie's favourite . And there's not many brands he'll eat:Banghead


I did some research, I think Smilla and Feringa are possibly using cassia gum as the thickener (like Grau), which is a complex sugar, from what I read on zooplus... still waiting for a reply from them, and can't seem to contact Wild Freedom or MAC's yet...

My girl actually regurgitated after I tried Grau, which I had initially put down to the cassia gum, but maybe not, as they've been eating Smilla and Feringa like it's going out of fashion and she's been fine...

Catz Finefood only use natural gelatine apparently, I have a few tins of that in. :Happy

Animonda and LK are using carrageenan, so far... I have a cupboard full of Animonda too, and 24 tins of Smilla on the way! :Banghead


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Further clarification from Animonda - it seems they use carrageenan in all their wet food ranges. 

Hello, 

yes, it is in all wet products. But it does not cause allergics. 
There is no really diagnosed case report existiy.

Best regards, 

Your animonda-Team


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> I did some research, I think Smilla and Feringa are possibly using cassia gum as the thickener (like Grau), which is a complex sugar, from what I read on zooplus... still waiting for a reply from them, and can't seem to contact Wild Freedom or MAC's yet...
> 
> My girl actually regurgitated after I tried Grau, which I had initially put down to the cassia gum, but maybe not, as they've been eating Smilla and Feringa like it's going out of fashion and she's been fine...
> 
> ...


I've tried my fusspot on most of the good brands; some he's outright rejected (Wild Freedom) but most of them, after showing an initial interest n fooling me into ordering more he's gone on to refuse:Rage. He's even playing up with the Macs Kitten, which he used to like:Bawling Luckily, my Jessie is pretty easy going so gets his rejects


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> I've tried my fusspot on most of the good brands; some he's outright rejected (Wild Freedom) but most of them, after showing an initial interest n fooling me into ordering more he's gone on to refuse:Rage. He's even playing up with the Macs Kitten, which he used to like:Bawling Luckily, my Jessie is pretty easy going so gets his rejects


Yes, my Dom was like that - I've often thought that the six packs and saver packs must taste different! :Banghead 

Luckily these two will eat anything - AC and Smilla are so well-priced, though! Catz Finefood/Wild Freedom etc. are very good, but pretty expensive for everyday food - especially at the moment, they're eating like 300-400g a day each, growing babies!


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Yes, my Dom was like that - I've often thought that the six packs and saver packs must taste different! :Banghead
> 
> Luckily these two will eat anything - AC and Smilla are so well-priced, though! Catz Finefood/Wild Freedom etc. are very good, but pretty expensive for everyday food - especially at the moment, they're eating like 300-400g a day each, growing babies!


Well, if I put down AVF, he'll eat 400g.

How do you find the email address of these companies? I'm not sure if I'd like to find out what Miamor is using


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Hah. Had a reply from Nature's Menu. They use cassia gum. He originally enjoyed Hunters Kitchen but of course went off it after I bought 3 packs


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> Well, if I put down AVF, he'll eat 400g.
> 
> How do you find the email address of these companies? I'm not sure if I'd like to find out what Miamor is using


I just google it lol... I did 'who owns Miamor cat food?', found out it was a German company called Finnern, then googled 'contact Finnern pet food' and got the email from their website: [email protected] :Happy


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> Hah. Had a reply from Nature's Menu. They use cassia gum. He originally enjoyed Hunters Kitchen but of course went off it after I bought 3 packs


Cassia gum seems fairly common. There is a link here to a pdf version of a scientific report on safe levels in pet food that I found, if you fancy some light reading!  It is a potential allergen though from the looks of things, so definitely something to bear in mind.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> I just google it lol... I did 'who owns Miamor cat food?', found out it was a German company called Finnern, then googled 'contact Finnern pet food' and got the email from their website: [email protected] :Happy


Thanks. Just sent them a query on the pate food:Nailbiting


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Cassia gum seems fairly common. There is a link here to a pdf version of a scientific report on safe levels in pet food that I found, if you fancy some light reading!  It is a potential allergen though from the looks of things, so definitely something to bear in mind.


Looks like the choice is between carrageenan or cassia gum. But in reality, it's what I can get my Pain to eat


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> Looks like the choice is between carrageenan or cassia gum. But in reality, it's what I can get my Pain to eat


Yes basically. Or natural gelatine with Catz Finefood, no others confirmed as yet, but maybe MAC's and Wild Freedom will be the same.. it seems you get what you pay for! Catz Finefood and the others are literally double the price of AC/Smilla - 12 x 200g tins for £13.49 vs 12 tins of Smilla for £6.49!

I'm lucky that mine will eat anything, but it will certainly cost me to switch! They do have the more expensive ones from time to time as it is, but I bulk buy AC and Smilla at the moment! :Banghead


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Yes basically. Or natural gelatine with Catz Finefood, no others confirmed as yet, but maybe MAC's and Wild Freedom will be the same.. it seems you get what you pay for! Catz Finefood and the others are literally double the price of AC/Smilla - 12 x 200g tins for £13.49 vs 12 tins of Smilla for £6.49!
> 
> I'm lucky that mine will eat anything, but it will certainly cost me to switch! They do have the more expensive ones from time to time as it is, but I bulk buy AC and Smilla at the moment! :Banghead


I believe the more expensive brands have more muscle meat in their recipe whereas A.C. n Smilla have more offal


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> I believe the more expensive brands have more muscle meat in their recipe whereas A.C. n Smilla have more offal


A little more research indicates it's possibly better to favour cassia gum over carrageenan - there has been research on the safety of cassia gum in pet food, but carrageenan (in degraded form) has been identified as a possible human carcinogen after colon cancer was detected in lab animals and there are calls for it to be removed from the food chain...


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

Reading with interest, thanks for bringing the topic up.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

SbanR said:


> Looks like the choice is between carrageenan or cassia gum. But in reality, it's what I can get my Pain to eat


This is an interesting topic. I have been looking at omnomnom (which is meant to be a good cat food) and even they have cassia gum. This is what they had to say...

• Cassia Gum is a part of almost any commercial cat food, but it is not mandatory to declare (we use 0.001 %) but we do declare it anyway. If you don't use it the meat is rock hard and 'balled together"

http://www.thehonestcatfoodcompany..../omnomnom/products/omnomnom-pure-chicken-400g


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Also, are these additives less likely to be used in shredded food? I’m thinking of the likes of Thrive etc who are quite watery


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> This is an interesting topic. I have been looking at omnomnom (which is meant to be a good cat food) and even they have cassia gum. This is what they had to say...
> 
> • Cassia Gum is a part of almost any commercial cat food, but it is not mandatory to declare (we use 0.001 %) but we do declare it anyway. If you don't use it the meat is rock hard and 'balled together"
> 
> http://www.thehonestcatfoodcompany..../omnomnom/products/omnomnom-pure-chicken-400g


Yep, it would appear thickeners are another thing to consider now!  Cassia gum seems very common, yes. Others so far with it are Smilla, Feringa, Grau Grain-Free, Nature's Menu...

The only one confirmed with neither carrageenan or cassia gum so far is Catz Finefood, they apparently only use natural gelatine as a thickener.

Still trying to contact MAC's and Wild Freedom, and haven't enquired about any of the shredded type ones as yet. I've noticed that cassia gum is listed in the zooplus ingredients list under additives for some of them though, so worth checking.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Catz Finefood is a tinned pate that my cat will eat so happy about that. 

Have just asked Simpsons Premium tonight and will post here when they respond


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2019)

deleted


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> I just received this message from Blink:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> ...


Well don't they sound like a lovely company?! Fingers crossed for their food!


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> This is an interesting topic. I have been looking at omnomnom (which is meant to be a good cat food) and even they have cassia gum. This is what they had to say...
> 
> • Cassia Gum is a part of almost any commercial cat food, but it is not mandatory to declare (we use 0.001 %) but we do declare it anyway. If you don't use it the meat is rock hard and 'balled together"
> 
> http://www.thehonestcatfoodcompany..../omnomnom/products/omnomnom-pure-chicken-400g


Strange that Omnomnom say their product would be rock hard without cassia gum, and Lily's Kitchen say theirs would be watery without carrageenan.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> Strange that Omnomnom say their product would be rock hard without cassia gum, and Lily's Kitchen say theirs would be watery without carrageenan.


Yes, that is weird! And these strange thickeners are apparently so vital, but Catz Finefood is neither rock hard nor watery using natural gelatine - I'm no nutrition expert, but that seems like the best option to me if a thickener has to be used...


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shingigz said:


> Strange that Omnomnom say their product would be rock hard without cassia gum, and Lily's Kitchen say theirs would be watery without carrageenan.


That is strange. I feed a raw diet, but I do keep some canned in the rotation once a week, so I know they can eat it without trouble (in case of emergencies like power failure) I feed an organic non-GMO Project Verified brand that is pate and contains no gums at all It has a perfect pate texture, not loose, not hard.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Heard from Miamor, and its carrageenan in the pate foods. I guess it'd also be in the jelly n gravy varieties
My poor babies


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2019)

Edited for legal/confidentiality reasons, but the company has stated that:

*Cassia gum is used in pouches of Smilla*.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> Heard from Miamor, and its carrageenan in the pate foods. I guess it'd also be in the jelly n gravy varieties
> My poor babies


Oh no!  I'm thinking maybe we should try putting some pressure on the companies using carrageenan - some of them are really popular foods, they probably get a lot of custom from being recommended as 'the good stuff'... Petitions maybe? 'Please remove carrageenan and replace with a proven safe thickener' sort of thing? Or alternatively, we all just stop buying, and then see how fast they sort it when their sales drop through the floor!

I only have a couple of tins of Catz Finefood left, so mine are eating mainly Smilla and Feringa for now, both with cassia gum... Watch them decide not to like Smilla anymore now I have 24 tins on the way though!


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2019)

I think the best and simplest method is to email the company and tell them that you can no longer buy their product and tell them why. It's one thing stopping buying a product and hitting a company's bottom line but, in tandem with this, an email letting them know why is crucial. The wise companies would print them off and show at company meetings.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Jessie has eaten Smilla in the past before going off it. There's an introductory offer on at the moment so I guess I'll get her a tray.
Just watch the fussy boy refuse it though. There must be something in the taste and/ or texture of these thickeners as his favoured foods are the carrageenan ones and he's rejected the cassia gum foods


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

shingigz said:


> Strange that Omnomnom say their product would be rock hard without cassia gum, and Lily's Kitchen say theirs would be watery without carrageenan.





SbanR said:


> Heard from Miamor, and its carrageenan in the pate foods. I guess it'd also be in the jelly n gravy varieties
> My poor babies


I was going to say that maybe the density of the ingredients matter. Omnomnom is 96% meat, wanting to appear soft Lily's is 65% meat wanting to appear substantial.

Pates might be the ones that might be problematic for owners thinking they want to avoid complicated ingredients.


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## Babyshoes (Jul 1, 2016)

Interestingly, I just checked the ingredients in butchers classic tins - seems they use cassia gum, listed as a "technological additive"...


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Babyshoes said:


> Interestingly, I just checked the ingredients in butchers classic tins - seems they use cassia gum, listed as a "technological additive"...


That's interesting... Same as Grau, Smilla, Feringa, Nature's Menu... That's one of the cheapest grain-free foods as far as I know, too - so if price isn't the reason they're using carrageenan over cassia gum or natural gelatine, I wonder what is?


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2019)

Edited for legal/confidentiality reasons, but...

*It may be helpful to know that Lily's Kitchen does use a combination of Cassia Gum and Carrageenan*.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> From Lily's Kitchen:
> 
> "Thank you for your reply.
> 
> ...


It's all so weird! Why even bother with the carrageenan in that case, if they're using cassia gum anyway? Smilla/Feringa seem to manage with just one thickener! I don't understand why they'd choose to use such a controversial ingredient when there are other options available that have been demonstrated by research to be safe...


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2019)

deleted


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> "Hey xxxxx,
> 
> Thanks so much for getting in touch!
> 
> ...


Aww... I hope their food is good, just because they're so friendly and lovely!  If it has a sensible thickener they may just make a sale!


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Aww... I hope their food is good, just because they're so friendly and lovely!  If it has a sensible thickener they may just make a sale!


Blink was mentioned on PF a few months back when it first appeared on the market. I think it's rather high in carbs


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> Blink was mentioned on PF a few months back when it first appeared on the market. I think it's rather high in carbs


Oh yes, of course it is! Friendly staff, UK based AND decent food is asking far too much!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2019)

Edited for legal/confidentiality reasons, but Blink's wet cat food pouches contains:

*Natural Aspic Jelly - This contains a small amount of refined Carrageenan*.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shingigz said:


> *Natural Aspic Jelly - This contains a small amount of refined Carrageenan*. Cheaper foods use semi-refined carrageenan and this has been shown to sometimes effect the animals digestion.


Sigh...It doesn't matter. Once it gets into the intestinal tract, regardless of how it's been processed, the negative results are the same. I've read that from a number of sources though I don't have any links handy.

And it goes to show how sneaky pet food manufacturers are. They can list "natural aspic jelly" and no one would even think it contained carrageenan. Carrageenan, after all, comes from seaweed, and what's more "natural" than seaweed? Ugh.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Oh dear. Sadly natural doesn't mean good.

I did add all of the flavours of Blink to my basket last week from Tesco. Johnny ate each of them happily, licking the plate clean. 

All of them had the same gelled consistency. Not the same as Lily's Kitchen at all, but none the less all of them were a gelled up mass rather than something like Macs. 

It's entirely possible that Blink and Lily's are fine to feed to cats but I as I didn't even like the gelled nature of them before I heard about the additive here and with this information from @lorilou I'm going to simply avoid them. There's lots of choice for cat food, and neither of these are cheap so it's easy to avoid them. 

The next food on my list to try is Sainsbury's pouches which have contents in line with premium food. I'll have a good look at the label and a good look at what comes out of the packet and if it's gelled up and it's not gelatin then I'll pass. I hope someone will correct me if gelatin is bad for cats.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2019)

There's lots of choices of cat food, but there seems to be _something_ wrong with all of them. For now I will continue wit LK, Sainsburys Delicious, Blink and Meowing Heads. If something goes wrong I will reassess. I'm still utterly happy beyond measure that my 10-year-old female now produces solid BMs after eight weeks straight of diarrhoea. Also, she was 11 lbs 14 just four months ago and is now 10 lbs 6 oz. So I'm not worried too much about thickeners for now, and I am enjoying her wellness, digestion turnaround and better weight. Well, that's just my thoughts for the moment. I just want to enjoy her and rejoice in her good health. Reading the forums sometimes makes me feel I am getting hypochondria on her behalf. She catches mice too, the perfect diet, but even that is laden with worries about one thing or another.

I still would like to know which thickeners all of the companies use though, and am working my way through contacting the companies who make the foods that my cat eats..


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shingigz said:


> There's lots of choices of cat food, but there seems to be _something_ wrong with all of them.


Yes, that is the frustration. That is one of the reasons why (like you are doing) feeding as wide a rotation as possible is the best way to go when feeding commercial processed diets. One food might be "perfect except for A" The next might be "perfect except for B" and another, "perfect except for C". and so on. So the more variety you feed, the less of A, B or C (etc) they get.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

shingigz said:


> There's lots of choices of cat food, but there seems to be _something_ wrong with all of them.
> 
> Reading the forums sometimes makes me feel I am getting hypochondria on her behalf. She catches mice too, the perfect diet, but even that is laden with worries about one thing or another.


I couldn't agree more with both of your thoughts there.

I'm trying to find what's right for my cat, and I'm also getting another cat and want to stick to what he's been eating.

The more expensive ones like LK and Blink I was thinking I was getting more for my money. I'm now thinking that they're not designed to be better for cats, they're designed to look better for cat owners and much of what we're buying is convenience and marketing. The gelling stuff in them seems to be for cosmetic reasons rather than anything else.

I can feel a spreadsheet coming on though. I think I might hope to get a list of as many suitable foods and try to feed them in rotation as @lorilu says.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Sigh...It doesn't matter. Once it gets into the intestinal tract, regardless of how it's been processed, the negative results are the same. I've read that from a number of sources though I don't have any links handy.
> 
> And it goes to show how sneaky pet food manufacturers are. They can list "natural aspic jelly" and no one would even think it contained carrageenan. Carrageenan, after all, comes from seaweed, and what's more "natural" than seaweed? Ugh.


So I think I know the thickeners of the majority of the foods I've been feeding now, except for Wild Freedom and MAC's.

My options are between natural gelatine, cassia gum and carrageenan. My research has indicated the same as @lorilu, and I will be avoiding carrageenan. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, but my gut tells me natural gelatine (Catz Finefood) is the best choice, so I will feed this as much as I can afford to.

I also linked to a pdf in one of my earlier posts of a study on the use of cassia gum in pet food with indications of safe quantities, so my other preferred foods will now be Feringa and Smilla which both use cassia gum.

I will be following up with Animonda, as I'm really quite disappointed in them for using a potential carcinogen in their food!  I have just lost a cat to cancer, and won't be taking the risk with these two. I will try and link them to some of the concerns about carrageenan, ask them why they choose to use such a controversial ingredient, and tell them I won't buy again unless they change. I don't care that it's in the human food chain and I'm eating it in all honesty, so they can tell me that all they like - the fur babies still aren't having it!

EDIT: Also Grau Gourmet Grain-Free = cassia gum, so they can have that too. :Happy


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

They're more important than we are Laura. I'll eat just about anything but my cat will only get the healthiest!

When I've been doing my research Feringa seems to have lots of offal in it which can result in loose stools and odour. And by research really what I'm doing is looking at the Zooplus thread and searching for the food as a keyword with @chillminx as the author.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Quartermass said:


> They're more important than we are Laura. I'll eat just about anything but my cat will only get the healthiest!
> 
> When I've been doing my research Feringa seems to have lots of offal in it which can result in loose stools and odour. And by research really what I'm doing is looking at the Zooplus thread and searching for the food as a keyword with @chillminx as the author.


Yes, I believe the cheaper ones do have more offal and the more expensive ones more muscle meat - Catz Finefood is double the price of Smilla! They get the good stuff on a decent rotation, and I keep a pretty close eye on their toilet habits! 

I do plan to feed occasional raw as well, once they're more settled and I've done my research! Only the best for my babies. :Happy


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2019)

"The more expensive ones like LK and Blink I was thinking I was getting more for my money. I'm now thinking that they're not designed to be better for cats, they're designed to look better for cat owners and much of what we're buying is convenience and marketing. The gelling stuff in them seems to be for cosmetic reasons rather than anything else.

I can feel a spreadsheet coming on though. I think I might hope to get a list of as many suitable foods and try to feed them in rotation as @lorilu says.[/QUOTE]"

It would be good to eventually have a list of all the thickeners used by all of the different producers, but will their declarations be honest? And we would need to see percentages. But if these thickeners do not have to be declared on the label, just what else, as @Laura_&_Cats has said, is inside all of these foods that doesn't need to be declared? There is no way of knowing.

Re Lily's Kitchen, they never used to spend much of their profits on marketing and advertising. I don't know if they do nowadays as I don't have a TV or radio and don't read magazines. They used to say that their profits went into making quality food. I have put them in the frame about carrageenan with regard to it not being trusted by some people who are more clued up about feline nutrition. Many cat food companies spend multiple millions on promoting their crappy cat foods instead of spending the money on improving it.

It is often parroted that even the poorest quality of wet food is better than the highest quality dry food. But even the highest quality wet foods are not good enough because they contain a small amount (according to the companies) of carrageenan or cassia gum.

I love my cat as much as anyone loves theirs, but I don't want to spend all my time worrying about her or obsessing over her food, particularly when she looks healthy and happy. I want to save my worrying for if she becomes unwell. And there's no guarantee that feeding her top-notch grub (whatever that is) will mean that she won't become unwell, or that feeding a cat on low-quality food won't mean it won't live into its twenties.

Sorry for rambling, but it just seems that feline nutrition is a circle that will never be squared - partly because of the nature of business itself.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I agree with you there with the one caveat that you could follow that argument to the point where you're feeding Whiskas  I'm sure you won't though.

They used to say that their profits go into making quality food. <-- I'm sure they do spend the money somehow, but I'm concerned that the top end premium stuff aren't spending money on food that's better for cats, they're spending money on food that is more appealing to the owners. I know when I was in hospital my mum came round to feed my cat and she said she though the LK I was using at the time smelt great and I agree that it does smell good.Now I'm wondering if they're cooking food that smells good to humans as a priority over healthy food for cats.

I'll adjust my opinion as time goes on with experience and reading what people say but I think I'm still fairly solid in my thinking that Blink and LK are out because they're using a gelling agent that doesn't seem to do anything towards making the food better for my cat.

They do advertise on google at least. https://i.imgur.com/1bCrAJ2.png

Oh and I'm not sure it really counts as a ramble if it's worthwhile reading.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2019)

Quartermass said:


> I agree with you there with the one caveat that you could follow that argument to the point where you're feeding Whiskas  I'm sure you won't though.


I did buy her a pouch of this a couple of years ago, and I couldn't quite believe what I saw: inedible-looking, weird spongy chunks covered in edible-looking jelly to make sure it goes down their necks. I threw it away and was genuinely shocked.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

I do totally get your frustration, @shingigz - after battling to get my last cat Domino on these zooplus foods, and getting these two to eat Animonda, which is actually fairly highly recommended here from what I've seen, there is now a whole host of other considerations. I don't like that potentially dangerous things can be included and not listed. We learn to read labels and ingredients, and it's still not enough! You are right that we have enough worrying to do if they are ill, and shouldn't have to do it when they're healthy!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shingigz said:


> feeding a cat on low-quality food won't mean it won't live into its twenties.


No but quality of life matters too, and the better the diet, the better the cat will feel. I understand not wanting to spend all your time worrying about what you feed. Of course part of the the problem with that is, once you know certain things, you can't un-know them. <smile>

That's one of the reasons why I turned to raw feeding. To get away from all the garbage ingredients, and the worry about them, and the worry about foods being changed (happens often) or discontinued( also happens, to devastating effect) Then of course, seeing the difference between cats feed on "high quality canned" and raw...well I can't describe it. You have to live it to believe it. You see a canned fed cat and think she's as healthy and glowing as she can be, how could her fur be any softer? Then a few months on a balanced raw diet, and you find out.

Feeding partial raw is good too. I feed that way for a long time before I went 100% raw.



Laura_&_Cats said:


> I have just lost a cat to cancer,


I'm so sorry! Me too. How old was your kitty? Jennie was barely 12 (estimate, as she was rescued as a young adult). At the time I rescued her I was only just learning about carrageenan. She was on a few canned foods, all containing carrageenan and she had licked a bald spot on her abdomen. That bald spot (I called it her pink triangle) started to disappear when I eliminated carrageenan containing foods from her diet. She still kept the fur in that spot short, but not licked bald, though, until I went raw. I think the 6 1/2 years she was fed a raw diet went a long way toward staving off the cancer that finally reared it's ugly head. Who knows how much more quickly I would have lost her.



shingigz said:


> The gelling stuff in them seems to be for cosmetic reasons rather than anything else.


Yes.



shingigz said:


> Sorry for rambling, but it just seems that feline nutrition is a circle that will never be squared - partly because of the nature of business itself.


Yes. Profit first.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Is Tapioca Starch an alternative thickener to carrageenan or could manufacturers still add that in? It’s listed on the ingredients of Sainsbury’s Delicious and Seriously Good (Pets at Home)


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> I'm so sorry! Me too. How old was your kitty? Jennie was barely 12 (estimate, as she was rescued as a young adult). At the time I rescued her I was only just learning about carrageenan. She was on a few canned foods, all containing carrageenan and she had licked a bald spot on her abdomen.


I'm so sorry about your Jennie!  My Domino was also rescued as a young adult, I had him at around the estimated age of 12 when he left me too - but the last vet we saw thought he may have been a little older. He had a tumor on his foot, I forget the name now. I had a long conversation with the vet when he was diagnosed, who advised me if we were talking about his cat, he wouldn't be going ahead with treatment - his heart wasn't the strongest in the end, and apparently that sort of foot tumor is often a secondary in cats, he went off his food at the same time so it was likely he also had it somewhere else. I had him PTS before it affected his quality of life too much. So sad.  He had nine very happy years with me though!

He came to me addicted to Whiskas, and the only one of the zooplus foods I could ever really get him to eat consistently was bozita, although he did have periods on some of the ones I feed now. Not sure I even want to know if bozita use carrageenan, to be honest!  The vet told me a million times there was nothing I could have done to prevent or cure cancer myself, and then I found out all this about carrageenan and my heart sank! I know sometimes cancer is just 'luck of the draw', but I certainly want to minimise the risk as far as I can.

We say 'profit first' and that's clearly at least part of what this is, as foods containing natural gelatine are definitely on the more expensive side... But what about cassia gum? That must be fairly cheap, as Smilla uses it and it's one of the cheapest foods I've seen. I wonder what the reasoning is for using carrageenan over cassia gum? The latter is a potential allergen, but that seems safer than a carcinogen!

I'm going to look into adding raw into their rotation.  I will probably start with the preprepared stuff, so it's complete and has everything they need, and maybe give them a day of raw once a week on a Friday... I also want to start giving them raw chicken wings, once a fortnight or once a month maybe. The rest of the time they will be on canned wet without carrageenan.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Saffy Cat said:


> Is Tapioca Starch an alternative thickener to carrageenan or could manufacturers still add that in? It's listed on the ingredients of Sainsbury's Delicious and Seriously Good (Pets at Home)


Tapioca is another ingredient you want to avoid or feed only in very small amounts. Very high in carbs/sugar.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Tapioca is another ingredient you want to avoid or feed only in very small amounts. Very high in carbs/sugar.


Eeek, well I guess it was disclosed upfront on the ingredient list. I will limit it in the rotation. Catz Finefood is looking better and better as a good buy.

I'm disappointed that the companies I wrote to haven't acknowledged my questions. I asked Simpsons Premium and AATU. I was going to ask Thrive but I'm pretty sure I forgot. Will do that now.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

@Laura_&_Cats I've sent queries to Bozita n Granatapet so I'm afraid you'll know, providing I get an answer


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> @Laura_&_Cats I've sent queries to Bozita n Granatapet so I'm afraid you'll know, providing I get an answer


Haha, well maybe I'll end up buying some depending on the response, since my current options are reducing!


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2019)

White fish for breakfast... no thickeners in there...


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

lorilu said:


> Tapioca is another ingredient you want to avoid or feed only in very small amounts. Very high in carbs/sugar.


If it's used as filler I think it'd be bad, but if it's used as like 1% or something in the way that rice is in other foods, do you think it's ok?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Quartermass said:


> If it's used as filler I think it'd be bad, but if it's used as like 1% or something in the way that rice is in other foods, do you think it's ok?


I don't think it's okay, but if you can't avoid it entirely, that is why you want to feed as wide a variety as possible. That way, the cat isn't getting the same garbage ingredients in every single meal.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm saying there's no reason not to avoid it, at least for now, but I keep thinking that and until I get a spreadsheet made and see how much I've actually ruled out then I don't know if I'll stick to that!

A few weeks ago I had thought I'd go to just one brand of food and it'd be nice and easy to manage, but given what I've seen you and @chillminx saying I think it's going to have to be as wide a range as I can while trying to eliminate as many bad substances as I can.

Meanwhile I'm just back from a child's birthday party where I was shovelling all sorts of sugar and the like in my cakehole without a concern, but my cat will eat properly at least!


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Quartermass said:


> I'm saying there's no reason not to avoid it, at least for now, but I keep thinking that and until I get a spreadsheet made and see how much I've actually ruled out then I don't know if I'll stick to that!
> 
> A few weeks ago I had thought I'd go to just one brand of food and it'd be nice and easy to manage, but given what I've seen you and @chillminx saying I think it's going to have to be as wide a range as I can while trying to eliminate as many bad substances as I can.
> 
> Meanwhile I'm just back from a child's birthday party where I was shovelling all sorts of sugar and the like in my cakehole without a concern, but my cat will eat properly at least!


Ah @Quartermass, you're just like me! I'll eat anything myself, but so picky about what I give to the cats! 

Yes, my understanding has been that getting them on several brands is best, for multiple reasons but including to minimise the potential impact of any particular ingredient. I'm aiming for a rotation of three or four 'regular foods' (zooplus) and a couple of 'treat' foods - Pets at Home Wellness Core or Pets Corner Canagan are looking like potentially good options for that now that Animonda VF and LK are out!

I'm looking to start adding preprepared raw into the rotation occasionally too, maybe once a week or so, and also to feed a raw chicken wing maybe once a fortnight or monthly... Hopefully this will give them decent variety and minimise the risk of any potential issues. :Happy


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Quartermass said:


> A few weeks ago I had thought I'd go to just one brand of food and it'd be nice and easy to manage, but given what I've seen you and @chillminx saying I think it's going to have to be as wide a range as I can while trying to eliminate as many bad substances as I can.


That's the challenge. Unless you want to prepare their food yourself. Which of course I know not everyone wants to do. I turned to raw feeding kicking and screaming against it. I was sure I would never feed more than just a few nuggets of a "freeze dried" complete raw product, when I started. Each step happened very slowly and naturally, and over the next three years...before I knew it, my cats were 100% raw fed. My methods are still not completely static. How I fed 6 months ago even is slightly different from the way I do it today. You find yourself just adjusting/adapting as you go along.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> I was sure I would never feed more than just a few nuggets of a "freeze dried" complete raw product, when I started. Each step happened very slowly and naturally, and over the next three years...before I knew it, my cats were 100% raw fed


I can see myself following a similar route, to be honest!


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## Hobbs2004! (Dec 24, 2015)

What an interesting thread! I particularly like the social action of people getting stuck in to try to find out this information. Kudos! 

As a few have said on here, rotation (also with pre-prepared raw foods, not just commercial wet) is just so incredibly important. CFF, alongside Macs and a few others, have a really high amount of added iodine. While the evidence for a link between diet and HT is currently inconclusive, there is a movement on German cat forums (fora?) for the amount of iodine in cat food to be lowered. So, they are also voting by their feet with boycotting CFF and others. 

It isn't easy, is it?!


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Hobbs2004! said:


> CFF, alongside Macs and a few others, have a really high amount of added iodine. While the evidence for a link between diet and HT is currently inconclusive, there is a movement on German cat forums (fora?) for the amount of iodine in cat food to be lowered. So, they are also voting by their feet with boycotting CFF and others.
> 
> It isn't easy, is it?!


:Banghead Literally just ordered more CFF after finding out they use natural gelatine as the thickener! :Hilarious

This is why rotation is key!


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2019)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> I can see myself following a similar route, to be honest!


Me too... The thought of handling raw meat is repulsive to me, though.

I noticed that the pet store Jollyes had a freezer section with a fair amount of raw food for cats. I wouldn't know which one to choose though. I may call in next weekend and buy a bag/pack of something. I would probably start off with two meals per day (she is currently on seven small meals per day).


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

shingigz said:


> Me too... The thought of handling raw meat is repulsive to me, though.
> 
> I noticed that the pet store Jollyes had a freezer section with a fair amount of raw food for cats. I wouldn't know which one to choose though. I may call in next weekend and buy a bag/pack of something. I would probably start off with two meals per day (she is currently on seven small meals per day).


My research so far indicates that the options for preprepared raw is either the frozen stuff or the freeze-dried/dehydrated kind @lorilu mentioned that is rehydrated with water before they eat it.

I have limited freezer space at the moment, so might look into the latter first. I think it'd also probably be a bit of a more pleasant way to start off for those who are uncomfortable with raw meat...

Pets at Home stock a freeze-dried brand called 'Pure' which is also available from them directly (UK company, based in Yorkshire). I have emailed them with some ingredients questions!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shingigz said:


> Me too... The thought of handling raw meat is repulsive to me, though.
> 
> I noticed that the pet store Jollyes had a freezer section with a fair amount of raw food for cats. I wouldn't know which one to choose though. I may call in next weekend and buy a bag/pack of something. I would probably start off with two meals per day (she is currently on seven small meals per day).


Start slow. Don't think of it in terms of meal with initial introductions. Often a cat won't recognize raw as food.

1st introduction: place a tiny amount of raw on a plate and put it in front of her. If she eats it, good. The next day do it again. The third day do it again. If she's eating it, see how she handles it. The fourth day, if there've been no adverse effects, replace ONE meal with it.

If she refuses it on first offering: Next time, take a tiny amount and place it in a separate dish next to her canned food. That's all, just leave it there. When she is done, pick it up when you pick up her dish. The idea, with this method, is helping her associate it with being something to eat. Do this (tiny blob, separate plate, next to regular food) a few days (just one or two meals).

If it continues to be ignored, next get some tasty incentive and dust both her canned food and the tiny blob of raw with it. This makes both plates smell the same, so she'll be more likely to try it. Continue that for a few days. usually they tart eating the blob at this point. If so, gradually stop using the incentive and see how she goes.

Once she is eating the blob without incentive (or even fake out incentive) start working it into the meal rotation.

Slow is always better.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Start slow. Don't think of it in terms of meal with initial introductions. Often a cat won't recognize raw as food.
> 
> 1st introduction: place a tiny amount of raw on a plate and put it in front of her. If she eats it, good. The next day do it again. The third day do it again. If she's eating it, see how she handles it. The fourth day, if there've been no adverse effects, replace ONE meal with it.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will try this method. She eats whole mice (minus the stomach) so that's a sign that she may take to it/raw. Also, ever since I have been feeding her seven small meals per day, she has eaten foods that she never before liked.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm not sure that I will go raw, but the freeze dried might be a way of doing it. Would you recommend a brand of it @lorilu?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Quartermass said:


> I'm not sure that I will go raw, but the freeze dried might be a way of doing it. Would you recommend a brand of it @lorilu?


I'm in the US so wouldn't be able to recommend brands. You could start a thread asking. Or maybe there already is one, not sure.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> I'm in the US so wouldn't be able to recommend brands. You could start a thread asking. Or maybe there already is one, not sure.


They seem to have some really good freeze-dried brands over in the US, but I don't think we can get them here. 

The Pure is the only one I've seen available to buy in the UK so far, but would be interested to hear of any others!

https://purepetfood.co.uk/collections/complete-recipies-cats


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> They seem to have some really good freeze-dried brands over in the US, but I don't think we can get them here.
> 
> The Pure is the only one I've seen available to buy in the UK so far, but would be interested to hear of any others!
> 
> https://purepetfood.co.uk/collections/complete-recipies-cats


Sigh. I don't like the spinach. I don't like any fruits and veg, but tolerable, except for spinach. Cats should not have spinach, it is too high in oxalate..

If you write to them I would ask, what is their calcium source? They don't list bone as in ingredient.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

This food is perfect and has all a cat needs, said nobody about anything 

Oh well, onwards and upwards with everything else.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Sigh. I don't like the spinach. I don't like any fruits and veg, but tolerable, except for spinach. Cats should not have spinach, it is too high in oxalate..
> 
> If you write to them I would ask, what is their calcium source? They don't list bone as in ingredient.


Yep, that was my first thought too - I don't like the fruit/veg content but tend to put up with small amounts fed infrequently. Didn't know that about spinach though! I have asked if they use a thickener and if so which one, but will also ask about calcium, and will suggest/request they consider producing a variety without the spinach!  Thank you! :Happy


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Quartermass said:


> This food is perfect and has all a cat needs, said nobody about anything
> 
> Oh well, onwards and upwards with everything else.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Sigh. I don't like the spinach. I don't like any fruits and veg, but tolerable, except for spinach. Cats should not have spinach, it is too high in oxalate..
> 
> If you write to them I would ask, what is their calcium source? They don't list bone as in ingredient.


Looking into Pure a bit more, it's only the 'Chicken Feast' variety that contains spinach. The 'Surf & Turf' doesn't seem to.

https://purepetfood.co.uk/collections/complete-recipies-cats/products/surf-turf

Chicken, Chicken Liver, White Fish, Carrot, Apple, Celery, Salmon Oil, Minerals.

Thoughts @lorilu?!  (depending on outcome of my enquires on calcium source or thickener nasties obviously!)


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Looking into Pure a bit more, it's only the 'Chicken Feast' variety that contains spinach. The 'Surf & Turf' doesn't seem to.
> 
> https://purepetfood.co.uk/collections/complete-recipies-cats/products/surf-turf
> 
> ...


Well......(sorry!) I don't like blended proteins myself, because how will you know which, if something bothers the cat? And I never feed any fish to my cats. They get green lipped mussel for their omega three. But at least there is no spinach!


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Well......(sorry!) I don't like blended proteins myself, because how will you know which, if something bothers the cat? And I never feed any fish to my cats. They get green lipped mussel for their omega three. But at least there is no spinach!


Haha! If food passes the @lorilu test then it is the stuff of dreams! 

I do feed plenty of blended proteins as it is to be honest, so I guess they'd have to go on an elimination diet if they ever had issues! I don't feed them foods with tuna if I can help it, as I read they shouldn't have too much, but I'm usually fairly comfortable with white fish with another non-fish protein on a rotation. As the only freeze-dried raw I can find, I do feel it might be worth adding it in provided I like their response to my queries, though.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

GOOD NEWS!!!!!
Granatapet does NOT use any thickeners at all; thickening occurs during the "fermentation process"

Now there'll be a stampede to order Granatapet. Jessie eats it; I hope my fussy sod does too


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

Thanks @SbanR 
I have not seen that where I am but will have a look for a supplier.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Thrive had this to say to my question:
Do you include any additional undeclared additives such as carrageenan or cassia gum in any of your wet food? I understand that it’s not necessary to declare these ingredients and many manufacturers don’t.

“Many thanks for your email.

There is no Carrageenan in our thrive cat wet food, meat content is detailed below, all other details are listed on the ingredient labels.”

:Cat


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

The sainsbury's stuff contains tapioca starch. It's listed between 0.3% and 0.2% meaning we should assume 0.3% by weight.

It seems like a very small amount if the only danger from it is carbs then isn't that an inconsequential amount? That's roughly 1/4 of a gram per pouch.

https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/sainsburys-tdc-chicken-in-light-jelly-85g

*Ingredients*

*Composition:*
Chicken Breast (50%), Sunflower Oil (0.7%), Minerals, Fish Oil (0.3%), Tapioca Starch, Chicory Extract (0.02%).

*Additives:
Technological additives:* Cassia Gum 1,895 mg/kg

*Nutritional additives: *Vitamin A 1,775 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 200 IU/kg, Vitamin E 50 mg/kg, Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate 33.5 mg/kg, Potassium Iodide 1.0 mg/ kg, Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate 3.0 mg/kg, Manganese Sulphate Monohydrate 5.1 mg/kg, Zinc Sulphate Heptahydrate 101.5 mg/kg, Sodium Selenite 0.03 mg/kg, Taurine 350 mg/kg.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

*Additives:
Technological additives:* Cassia Gum 1,895 mg/kg
.[/QUOTE]

Just saw cassia gum. Didn't see that before


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

It's that not ok? I thought it was one of the things that's not on the bad list? I'm off to sainsburys in 10 minutes and I was going to buy some


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

I don’t know anymore....I think it was determined earlier that cassia gum isn’t as bad as carrageenan. I think we need a sticky on food


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm going to get some anyway, I've not got new food in time before my Macs run out, so I need to get something before ordering more from Zooplus.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Well, I just realised that Amazon are delivering a box of HiLife to me this week. I’m going to keep the order. 

Additives: 
Chicken Dinner: Nutritional additives: Vitamin A 1,835 iu/kg, Vitamin D3, 210 iu/kg, Vitamin E 50 mg/kg, Ferrous sulphate monohydrate 3.1 mg/kg, Potassium iodide 1.0 mg/kg, Copper sulphate pentahydrate 2.1 mg/kg, Manganese sulphate monohydrate 5.2 mgkg, Zinc sulphate heptahydrate 157.3 mg/kg, Technological additive: cassia gum 3,750 mg/kg


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Natures Menu True Instinct (shredded pouches)

“I can advise that we do use Cassia Gum as a gelling agent in our wet pouches.”


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2019)

Good work, @Saffy Cat.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2019)

Edited for legal/confidentiality reasons, but... *Meowing Heads is full of all natural ingredients and they do not use any thickeners or jelly in any of their recipes*.


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## Babyshoes (Jul 1, 2016)

Does anyone happen to have links to the studies which started this concern about carageenan? I've googled briefly, but didn't find much to answer my questions.

Sorry if I missed this info in an earlier post, but I'm wondering if the sense of panic that seems to be creeping into this thread is perhaps a little misguided - I'm sure there is no need to suddenly and abruptly change familiar foods or throw away existing stocks, though I can understand planning a gradual change to the better options, once we figure out what those are!

While carageenan is a known carcinogen (a quick Google has plenty of articles stating that), so is lettuce, as well as a lot of otherwise healthy foods. The thing is that you'd need to eat an almost impossible amount of lettuce to significantly increase your chances of getting cancer. I'm curious to know how much carageenan a cat would need to eat to increase their chance of getting cancer by a statistically significant amount, and by how much would it increase? If the increase is noticeable but tiny, like an increase from (say) 0.5% to 0.9% if they ate it every day, that's not something I'd panic about, beyond reducing the amount of carageenan containing foods in the rotation. If it was more like 0.5% up to 5%, if they ate it twice a week, then I'd be far more concerned!


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Lots of responses! We're cooking on gas now! 

Cassia gum is a potential allergen, but there has been a fair amount of research into its safety in pet food from what I gather - I linked to a study in one of my earlier posts. 

It's the carrageenan that's the controversial one, as in its degraded form it appeared to cause cancer in lab animals.

Cassia gum seems like one of those ingredients it would be 'better not to have', of which there are many - but I do personally feel that's okay to have on a rotation, whereas I would want to avoid carrageenan now really...


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2019)

Babyshoes said:


> Does anyone happen to have links to the studies which started this concern about carageenan? I've googled briefly, but didn't find much to answer my questions.
> 
> Sorry if I missed this info in an earlier post, but I'm wondering if the sense of panic that seems to be creeping into this thread is perhaps a little misguided - I'm sure there is no need to suddenly and abruptly change familiar foods or throw away existing stocks, though I can understand planning a gradual change to the better options, once we figure out what those are!
> 
> While carageenan is a known carcinogen (a quick Google has plenty of articles stating that), so is lettuce, as well as a lot of otherwise healthy foods. The thing is that you'd need to eat an almost impossible amount of lettuce to significantly increase your chances of getting cancer. I'm curious to know how much carageenan a cat would need to eat to increase their chance of getting cancer by a statistically significant amount, and by how much would it increase? If the increase is noticeable but tiny, like an increase from (say) 0.5% to 0.9% if they ate it every day, that's not something I'd panic about, beyond reducing the amount of carageenan containing foods in the rotation. If it was more like 0.5% up to 5%, if they ate it twice a week, then I'd be far more concerned!


I don't know about any studies as such, but I have read some articles. I'm sure somebody will post links to studies. I WILL be using up my significant stock of cat foods with thickening agents added, and I may still feed her with some occasionally. But longer term, my cat is now 10, and I just want to give her the best food I can, which is my insurance policy.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Unfortunately my fussy boy has a firm preference for carrageenan thickened foods; he's firmly rejected those with cassia gum.
Keeping my fingers crossed he'll eat the Granatapet; to "encourage" him I've bought a box of Fortiflora!


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/cancer-causing-carrageenan-pet-food/

This is from a dogs magazine site. I'm not sure how scientific or credible it is.

However, I'm inclined to avoid carrageenan now if it could be a cause of intestinal irritation. My cat has licked a patch of fur off her belly and it seems to be healing slowly. I attribute it to a beef allergy (from other symptoms which have stopped) but I don't really know.

I seem to only have one brand that uses carrageenan but I've got 8 boxes of it  it only goes into rotation once a week so will take a while to run it down. Given the information we have now, I'm going to favour the brands that have the natural gelatins. I'm not going to avoid cassia gum as it doesn't have negative articles (from a quick search online) I do want a wide rotation.

Anyway I hope I didn't come across as panicking. Just very keen to get more info.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

SbanR said:


> Unfortunately my fussy boy has a firm preference for carrageenan thickened foods; he's firmly rejected those with cassia gum.
> Keeping my fingers crossed he'll eat the Granatapet; to "encourage" him I've bought a box of Fortiflora!


Good luck. Fortiflora works very well with my cat. She doesn't like tinned pate foods but she will eat it happily with fortiflora. It improves her litter box smell as well to nothing (it wasn't terrible anyway unlike when she used to eat Sheba and RC - that was something toxic).


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/cancer-causing-carrageenan-pet-food/
> 
> This is from a dogs magazine site. I'm not sure how scientific or credible it is.
> 
> ...


I admit I probably did panic a little! Sorry peeps! 

I've very recently lost a cat to cancer (mid February), so I read 'potential carcinogen' and became incredibly concerned! Also I'm really quite annoyed that things can be included without having to declare them on the ingredients. I've always had a pretty good opinion of Animonda Carny before this, and the cats like it..

I do accept that any dangers from carrageenan are probably very minimal based on the amounts used, but now that I know all this I can't un-know it! I'll likely still feed them the stock I have and just not buy more, I will be favouring brands without thickeners, and I will accept cassia gum in the rotation. They've been having loads of AC though (it was the first one I started them on, they've eaten like trays of the stuff!) and I really don't feel comfortable with that now...


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm a very sceptical person and I'm not completely convinced by the cornucopia thing. But as it's talking about not doing something rather than advocating doing something I'm going to avoid carrageenan.Cornucopia are a US charity who are involved in advocacy for organic farming. They are staffed by organic farmers. It might be in their interests for people to buy more expensive cat food so it could well be financially rewarding for them to encourage people to move to different products. On the other hand I don't believe that they've actually faked this etc so I'm going to take it as

I'm also really cautious about taking a "better safe than sorry" approach to cat food and instead I'm going to take a "better the devil you know".

My reasoning is that until I know what a manufacturer uses as a thickening/stabiliser in their cat food I have to assume it's something potentially carcinogenic like carrageenan. I've never seen any cat food, other than dry or freeze dried that doesn't look like it needed some kind of thickening agent of some kind.

Emails from manufacturers aren't as convincing as what's on the label, there's little real recourse if a manufacturer accidentally tells people there's no carrageenan in something when what the staff answering the emails were actually told was "no artificial additives, thickeners or stabilisers". It'd be very easy for crossed wires to happen and little or no consequences. Carrageenan is a natural ingredient. I don't think the general public know that a natural ingredient could be terrible while an artificial could be great.

So I'm more inclined to favour products that list cassia gum on the ingredients because if they're going to list the thickeners then that to me means they're probably not using something that's worse. I certainly prefer that to a product that doesn't list any thickeners at all, or that by email says they don't. Meowing heads I'm probably more likely to trust as they're a niche manufacturer trading somewhat on their reputation. I'm still a little bit suspicious about Meowing heads. I don't understand why catfood packets wouldn't just separate into meat and water without some kind of gelling/stabiliser/thickener, so I have to assume they're using something from the meat they're using, or one of the listed ingredients is performing that function. However I've not actually seen a packet of the food so I don't know what the consistency is like.

I did get 26 85g packs from Sainsburys. It's not a gelled up mass containing visble pieces of meat like Blink was, nor is it a solid pate like Lily's Kitchen is. I let Johnny sniff the unopened packet and he was interested right away, and he was straight into it, he really liked it at least.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2019)

Unless somebody beats me to it, I will open a pouch of Meowing Heads tomorrow and post a picture. It has a different consistency to all of the others I have seen, kind of rich-looking and sludgy. My cat likes it, and the company has stated that it doesn't use any thickeners, so that will do for me.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

shingigz said:


> Unless somebody beats me to it, I will open a pouch of Meowing Heads tomorrow and post a picture. It has a different consistency to all of the others I have seen, kind of rich-looking and sludgy. My cat likes it, and the company has stated that it doesn't use any thickeners, so that will do for me.


I'll be really interested to see it! Although not because I don't trust them, more because I want to understand what foods with thickeners do and don't look like etc.

I still have 1 Blink pouch left, so I'll do the same with that one when Johnny gets it.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Cheshire Cat just wrote back

“No we don’t have anything like that in any of our foods”


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

I will post a pic of a Meowing Heads pouch. This is a partly eaten Turkey pouch.
My guys both eat the pouches. 

I tried Biggles with the cans before Jack and he didn't take to them. The cans as I recall were more solid than the pouches.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I like the giant frog bowl! 

That looks nothing like any of the other foods I've ever bought. On the website they say 93% meat. I've been confused by other cat foods because the ingredients don't total 100% and I have to presume it's some kind of broth that's added. The moisture level of it though comes out at 80% which is in line with all of the other premium cat foods I've looked at. I don't understand why thickener is needed for everything else I've come across, and even still there's still some liquid, but this doesn't use any thickener and seems to have the consistency of paste. What's binding that water in?

I'm not trying to be critical of Meowing Heads, nor am I trying to assert or hint at something. I just don't understand.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2019)




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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Quartermass 
H&M kids homeware I have a bunch I use for pet dishes, fox, ladybird, frog etc

Here is an unopened packet.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm still baffled. If I cook something in the slow cooker then I'd love for it come out with gravy like that, I always have to add something to get it. Stew made without some kind of thickener comes out much more watery. The turkey in particular looks fantastic. I feel like I'm missing something - how are they making it that consistency without either boiling the water away or adding something?


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Quartermass 
The Surf and Turf packet says fish broth, I can check but think I have seen chicken broth on others.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Ah yeah if I look at the closeup pictures you took I can see that. I don't what broth actually means though in this context. Is it some kind of animal parts boiled down in the same way that we get gelatin? So skin, bones, tendons, ligaments etc boiled down and then added to the meat is what produces this? I'm totally fine with that if it's what it is.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Quartermass 
Probably similar to how we make chicken broth or fish broth for ourselves just maybe with parts we wouldn't choose to eat ourselves.
The consistency is juicy and my guys like it, so am happy to have it as part of their mix of foods.
The only bit I don't like is all the four flavors I have found have chicken included. I try not to feed too much chicken as it is in so many foods.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

@Saffy Cat do you sprinkle a little Fortiflora over the food or is it better mixed in? Ollie has 5-6 meals so I would need to use just a tiny amount each time ( doesn't look very much in the sachet)

@Laura_&_Cats what concerns me with the carrageenan is the link with gut problems as two of my previous boys had problems in that department


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Well I'm Scottish so I probably would choose to eat those parts! 

I think that is the only explanation that fits. Meowing Heads broth is thick, other brands use thickeners and their broth won't be as thick without it.

I still feel they're an exception to a rule I'm going to use - if the ingredients don't list a thickener then I have to assume that it's a carcinogenic one until I find out differently.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

I think all cat food is steamed in its packaging. So pouches and tins. There shouldn't be evaporation. The jelly is the usual result of the liquid coming out in.

I read somewhere here recently that tins cook for about 90 mins at temps less than 300c. Might have been something @chillminx posted.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

@SbanR The sachets are tiny! I use about half a packet a day unless I have spillage (which happens a lot). I normally just fold the top of the sachet and put it in the cupboard for the next meal but that's not going to work for you with so many meals. Definitely mix it in as they get tempted to only eat the top otherwise.

You might need to empty it into a small jar and use a metal spoon to distribute smaller amounts more accurately for his mini meals. I'm not sure how big your mini meals are and whether the fortiflora will be enough to tempt him?


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

SbanR said:


> @Laura_&_Cats what concerns me with the carrageenan is the link with gut problems as two of my previous boys had problems in that department


It's quite worrying in general that they would use an ingredient with such an apparent lack of research into its safety in pet food... Cassia gum is a potential allergen and I have heard of a few cats having issues with it, but at least there is research and some sort of indication of safe quantities... I can't find anything like that for carrageenan.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Quartermass said:


> I like the giant frog bowl!
> 
> That looks nothing like any of the other foods I've ever bought. On the website they say 93% meat. I've been confused by other cat foods because the ingredients don't total 100% and I have to presume it's some kind of broth that's added. The moisture level of it though comes out at 80% which is in line with all of the other premium cat foods I've looked at. I don't understand why thickener is needed for everything else I've come across, and even still there's still some liquid, but this doesn't use any thickener and seems to have the consistency of paste. What's binding that water in?
> 
> I'm not trying to be critical of Meowing Heads, nor am I trying to assert or hint at something. I just don't understand.


I think that maybe the more meat content, the less need to thicken.

There are usually two different ways of displaying the ingredients and the second is the analytical analysis which adds up to 100% (the undeclared percentage is always carbohydrates). This website works out calories based on the analytical analysis but auto calculates the missing carbohydrate percentage.

http://fnae.org/carbcalorie.html


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

In all honesty, I don’t know why food labelling has to be so complicated. Why carbs get left off. Why calories aren’t disclosed?


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

That is logical Saffy but Meowing heads have no thickener while similar quantity of meat brands do use thickener. The only explanation I have is that the broth is different between brands.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Or even that they use broth (which is probably an quality ingredient and additional expense). Other brands might just add water and oils (which might be why they need to use thickener)


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Saffy Cat said:


> Or even that they use broth (which is probably an quality ingredient and additional expense). Other brands might just add water and oils (which might be why they need to use thickener)


I'm not sure what legally can be called as broth. If you add water to it then I think it's still broth, so water with a bit of oils and salts that's got some blood etc in it could be described as broth but be almost entirely different to better brands.

I can't think of any other explanation for Meowing heads looking as good as it does with no thickeners.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2019)

Quartermass said:


> I'm not sure what legally can be called as broth. If you add water to it then I think it's still broth, so water with a bit of oils and salts that's got some blood etc in it could be described as broth but be almost entirely different to better brands.
> 
> I can't think of any other explanation for Meowing heads looking as good as it does with no thickeners.


Maybe drop them a line to ask them for more details. email address I used was: [email protected]

The reply I received was from Kaylie Garrett, Customer Services Manager: [email protected]


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I've spoken to them by email before when I was looking at dry foods a long time ago and they were super helpful.

If I'm considering their food I think I'll ask them. It feels disingenuous to ask them if I'm not likely to buy their food. I've started a spreadsheet to try and collect information together for my own use although if I get to the point where it's got anything useful on it I'll share it. I've used the zooplus info as the starting point.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

I don’t think it’s disingenuous to ask questions about a product. They won’t know if you are a customer.

Anyway, I must have no shame then. I have asked a few cat food providers for free samples and have got quite a fair bit. I got fed up with Saf not eating food I actually bought. I do only ask if there is a likelihood that she might eat it. I didn’t know that zooplus would refund until recently.

Liking the spreadsheet idea


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Hmm, I think only if I might become a customer. I'm going to finish the spreadsheet first I think. 

Sadly I'm finding it difficult with some of the products listing only some of the ingredients. I am also leaning towards being cassia gum friendly because there's lots of middle of the road foods that don't list it and I've got to assume they have carrageenan until proven different.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Saffy Cat said:


> @SbanR The sachets are tiny! I use about half a packet a day unless I have spillage (which happens a lot). I normally just fold the top of the sachet and put it in the cupboard for the next meal but that's not going to work for you with so many meals. Definitely mix it in as they get tempted to only eat the top otherwise.
> 
> You might need to empty it into a small jar and use a metal spoon to distribute smaller amounts more accurately for his mini meals. I'm not sure how big your mini meals are and whether the fortiflora will be enough to tempt him?


I'm hoping I won't need to use the Fortiflora but if I do, I'll use a little on one meal morning n evening. That's my thinking at the moment anyway; it'll probably change


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Simpson’s Premium cat food has this to say

“Thank you for your email. We don’t use Carrageenan or Cassia gum in the wet food. All the ingredients that are in there and additives are listed on the packaging.”

I buy from them direct but it’s annoying because zooplus sell their dog food but not their cat food. Have written to zooplus to stock the cat range but not expecting much. I’d say it’s similar quality to Catz Finefood but unfortunately not single protein.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> Simpson's Premium cat food has this to say
> 
> "Thank you for your email. We don't use Carrageenan or Cassia gum in the wet food. All the ingredients that are in there and additives are listed on the packaging."
> 
> I buy from them direct but it's annoying because zooplus sell their dog food but not their cat food. Have written to zooplus to stock the cat range but not expecting much. I'd say it's similar quality to Catz Finefood but unfortunately not single protein.


Are they 200g tins? If so, that's excellent value (£23.75 for 24 tins) as my cat would only need one per day.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Yes 200gm tins. They don't make a larger size. I buy the single tins about £1.25 each. They last me three meals as Saf normally eats about 70gms for her meals when it's a higher meat content.

She seems to like the Four Bird combination the most.

Edit: just fed her Simpsons tonight and forgot to put the fortiflora in it. She wouldn't eat it until I did . There's a couple of new flavours and actually she is responding best to the one with the Tuna (of course).


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> Yes 200gm tins. They don't make a larger size. I buy the single tins about £1.25 each. They last me three meals as Saf normally eats about 70gms for her meals when it's a higher meat content.
> 
> She seems to like the Four Bird combination the most.


Thanks... that is one for the yes-list then. Their organic tins are £16.20 for 12, which works out at £1.35 per tin/day. Worth doing, I think. Less than £10 per week for one cat.

I know a nutrition expert who owns a clinic, and he always says that if you cannot afford to buy organic food, make sure you at least buy organic milk and organic chicken.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Saffy Cat said:


> Simpson's Premium cat food has this to say
> 
> "Thank you for your email. We don't use Carrageenan or Cassia gum in the wet food. All the ingredients that are in there and additives are listed on the packaging."
> 
> I buy from them direct but it's annoying because zooplus sell their dog food but not their cat food. Have written to zooplus to stock the cat range but not expecting much. I'd say it's similar quality to Catz Finefood but unfortunately not single protein.


That's good to know as its one I want to try my pair on. If you buy their pack of 6 the price drops to £1 per tin.

ZP offer a lot of brands on the dog list that they don't offer on catsunch


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Ziwipeak have no carrageenan listed on their tin.

I feel a bit bad that I've written to ask them the same question about carrageenan and cassia now. They haven't responded yet. Probably thinking, read the label 

This stuff is really expensive but the cat loves it. Amazon had some amazing deals (about a third of the rrp) on this in the past.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Saffy Cat said:


> View attachment 397353
> 
> 
> Ziwipeak have no carrageenan listed on their tin.
> ...


ZP uses chick pea.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

lorilu said:


> ZP uses chick pea.


Yes, that is true. But a look into this and it seems there's not that much information available on its effects. I have read it is a poor substitute for meat protein often used in dry. ZP is only in rotation once a week.

AATU also contains about 2 whole chickpeas per pouch. Sometimes she eats them otherwise she leaves them behind. They are her favourites  I'll ask my husband to take out the whole chickpeas from her AATU when he feeds it going forward. I might ask AATU to consider removing them as it doesn't seem to benefit having a whole chickpeas in the food.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> I might ask AATU to consider removing them as it doesn't seem to benefit having a whole chickpeas in the food


I often take bits out of my cat's food and give them to the dog, who funnily enough I call Chickypea. Nothing gets wasted with a dog around, and he is a great pre-cleaner of my cat's dishes!


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

I’d love a dog but I can’t sell that as a reason to get one to my husband!


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Can’t remember if this was already covered....but I’ve probably got too much time on my hands 

Wainwrights Terrine 
Technological Additives: Cassia Gum 1,530 mg; Sensory Additives: None stated; Nutritional Additives: Nutritional Additives/kg: Vit. A 950 IU, Vit. D3 110 IU, Vit. E 25mg, Taurine 269mg, Zinc Sulphate Heptahydrate 80.7mg, Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate 17.7 mg, Potassium Iodide 0.5 mg, Manganese Sulphate Monohydrate 2.7 mg, Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate 1.6 mg.

Seriously Good (Pets at Home)
Composition and Nutrition: Composition: Chicken Flakes (50%), Sunflower Oil, Minerals, Tapioca Starch. Technological Additives: None stated; Sensory Additives: None stated; Nutritional Additives: Vitamin A 10,200IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1,700IU/kg, Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate 5.7mg/kg, Potassium Iodide 11.3 mg/ kg, Copper Sulphate Pent hydrate 2.3mg/kg, Manganese Sulphate Monohydrate 11.3mg/kg, Zinc Sulphate Heptahydrate 79.4mg/kg, Taurine 340.4mg/kg. Analytical Constituents: Protein 11.5%, Crude Fibres 2%, Crude Oils and Fats 0.5%, Crude Ash 1.5%, Moisture 84.5%.

Seriously Good has one of the lowest calories I’ve calculated per pouch though. Only 51cal per 100gm. I’m phasing it out of rotation for that reason as it doesn’t seem filling enough compared to the competitors


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Edgard & Cooper cat food:

“Hi, no, we don’t include any of the ingredients you listed! We only use natural products”


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Looks like the more expensive English brands omit thickeners.
I can't remember but did Macs ever give a reply?
I'm still waiting to hear from Bozita


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Texture of Simpsons.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

What's the brown jelly around it for Simpsons? Is that just boiled down bits of whatever is in there, something like gelatin?

“Hi, no, we don’t include any of the ingredients you listed! We only use natural products”

Something keeps worrying me when the answer isn't "We don't use thickeners" it's "We only use natural products". I'm not saying they're lying or deceiving etc.. I just wish I understood more about the stuff.

Once I get more done on the spreadsheet I might start asking some manufacturers some really specific questions, if I think I might buy from them.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

I think of it probably like the jelly that I see in my own food (seriously!) for example if I open up a lamb shank in a blister pack.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm thinking sometimes tinned meat comes with that.

A bit of googling and it turns out it could be aspic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspic

"*Aspic* is a dish in which ingredients are set into a gelatin made from a meat stock or consommé. "

I did think earlier it could be gelatin, which is just boiled down bits of carcass and it looks like I might have guessed right.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Quartermass said:


> What's the brown jelly around it for Simpsons? Is that just boiled down bits of whatever is in there, something like gelatin?
> 
> "Hi, no, we don't include any of the ingredients you listed! We only use natural products"
> 
> ...


I agree. It's too vague. Lots of "natural" things are harmful to cats (and us, for that matter). Carrageenan is "natural", so the ones who use it would have us believe.


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Love this thread! Loads of new options!  Simpsons Premium looks good, might try that! 

Just ordered some Pure Freeze-Dried Raw to try too (Surf and Turf) as I had vouchers for Pets At Home, will report back! No thickeners are used in that, so that's something. We'll see what they make of it. 

Opened a tin of Feringa before and the ring pull came off - another one bites the dust I guess! :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

I used the same wording for all the manufacturers, just tweaked it for a specific product to make it clear what product I was interested in. It would be very slippery of them to avoid the direct question but yes, you never know if they got manufacturing advice to be evasive. 

“Do you include any additional undeclared additives such as carrageenan or cassia gum in any of your wet food? I understand that it’s not necessary to declare these ingredients and many manufacturers don’t. 

I am specifically interested in the xxxxx range that is made for cats”


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Laura_&_Cats said:


> Opened a tin of Feringa before and the ring pull came off - another one bites the dust I guess! :Hilarious:Hilarious


You should still be able to use the tin opener!


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## Laura_&_Cats (Mar 2, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> You should still be able to use the tin opener!


I did, but might still phase them out of the rotation as punishment  haha!... Took ages, both cats looking at me like I was mad lol.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Ziwipeak just responded (and cc'd a few other staff members I presume)

"Thanks for your email regarding whether we add additional additives to our food.

I want to assure you we use no additional additives such as carrageenan or cassia gum to bind our recipes.

Our canned recipes include approximate 5% whole chickpeas as a natural binder to our high meat inclusion recipes.

The chickpeas are well cooked so the starches can become gelatinised making them more digestible.

Chickpeas are in fact a superfood which are an excellent source of protein, and are vital to many aspects of development and the immune system. They have been used in the past to help ease constipation, however they supply an array of vitamins and minerals such as potassium, magnesium, copper, folate, vitamin A, B and C vitamins which have many long term health benefits."

@lorilu what do you think of the 5% chickpeas? Im guessing you think any is not good...


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Ingredients are listed without percentages : Beef, Beef Broth, Beef Lung, Beef Liver, Beef Kidney, Beef Tripe, Chick Peas, New Zealand Green Mussel, Beef Bone, Dried Kelp, Minerals (Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B1 Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement)

Chickpeas being 5% and the green mussel is 3% according to what they say. 92% is meat/organs/mussels. Meaning of the remaining 8%, 5% is the chickpeas and 3% goes between the dried kelp, minerals, nutritional additives.

Alas though kelp is seaweed, and guess where carageeenan comes from?


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Isn't carrageenan different once it's extracted?

Seeweed I thought was quite beneficial and is sold as a supplement

https://www.aniforte.co.uk/products/seaweed-100g?variant=7389317201943&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&cmp_id=1586252155&adg_id=59292898945&kwd=&device=t&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpsLkBRDpARIsAKoYI8wofolEeYsYqtMNNvnzktJAQUIi-M_5JGVobLueP-x8CXXZow6RdcAaAkoUEALw_wcB

https://pawsometalk.com/can-cats-eat-seaweed/

Seeweed is also in some Applaws as an ingredient.

Edit: seaweed - I can't spell!


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Please note: Seaweed meal should not be used with Hyperthyroidism

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/dog_health/skin_coat_supplements/other/132623


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I don't know.

We're kind of thinking (if you're with me!) that broth can describe stuff that's nearly gelatin - in other words skin/tendon/bone boiled down until it's thick goo - and used in the same way that you would use gelatin.

So could dried kelp be what carageenan is extracted from and used instead of carageenan because it contains carageenan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrageenan#Semi-refined

If you look at the description of semi refined carrageenan could it not also be described as dried kelp?

Again though I don't know, I'm really just thinking aloud.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Saffy Cat said:


> Ziwipeak just responded (and cc'd a few other staff members I presume)
> 
> "Thanks for your email regarding whether we add additional additives to our food.
> 
> ...


I think Ziwi Peak is a good food. It would be even better without the chick peas. Regardless of what they say about the benefits, since a cat doesn't have the enzymes to digest plant matter, the cat will not be getting all those benefits. Too much legume can cause intestinal inflammation but fed in a rotation with other foods that don't contain chick peas or other legumes (like peas), it should be okay.

I wouldn't feed it to a CKD cat because of the bone.

Kelp is a different seaweed algae than the one carrageenan comes from, I think. I don't know how much benefit a cat can actually derive from it (supposedly it provides amino acids and vitamins). This is just based on a few quick searches.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Yeah I came across the same information. My worry is that if you wanted to put a thickener that contains carrageenan into cat food and wanted to market it as organic etc then could you list it as the dried kelp and claim kelp is a synonym for seaweed?

While I may be too cynical or sceptical though we know that at least some of the top end foods do use carrageenan.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Applaws:

“We, unlike any other pet food producer, only use a special human grade carrageenan which is specially produced only for Applaws.

There are two types of Carrageenan used in pet food. Degraded Carrageenan which is the main source of carrageenan used in pet food, is cheap and banned in human food. Natural Carrageenan is used in human food. Although they share the same name they are very different compounds. It is similar to the difference between 'Olive Oil' and 'Extra Virgin Olive Oil'. One is naturally produced from simply the pressing olives and the other is produced in a highly industrialized way where much of the nutrition is destroyed. Human grade natural carrageen is thousands of years old and has a totally different chemical structure to Degraded Carrageenan which is used in pet food. There has been some heath scares concerning carrageenan but these have been linked to degraded carrageenan not with human grade carrageenan. Some results have also shown that very high levels of carrageenan can be a potential health risk but these are more than a 100 times the inclusion level we use which is just a fraction of 1%. We have worked with Dr Dianne Addy of Glasgow Veterinary University and have developed what we believe is the safest most natural jelly that is free from sugar and other harmful compounds. It is human grade and is unique to Applaws pet food.

The carrageenan that we use is just in our products that contain Jelly.

I can confirm that we do not use any Cassia Gum in any of our products.”


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

AATU:

“Everything you see written in the ingredients is exactly what is in our food, we don’t hide anything from our customers and can confirm that these ingredients are not in are wet food.”


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Cosma:

“Please be advised that we do use Cassia gum in Cosma food.“


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Thanks again for doing all this. I've emailed Diane to ask her some information and I'll come back with what she says.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> AATU:
> 
> "Everything you see written in the ingredients is exactly what is in our food, we don't hide anything from our customers and can confirm that these ingredients are not in are wet food."


Thank you @Saffy Cat, it's good to hear this. AATU, Meowing Heads and Barking Heads are all under the same umbrella, owned by Pet Food UK, and consistently rank among the very top on the ethical index, says the blurb.

https://thegoodshoppingguide.com/ethical-cat-and-dog-food


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Saffy Cat said:


> Applaws:
> 
> "We, unlike any other pet food producer, only use a special human grade carrageenan which is specially produced only for Applaws.
> 
> ...


Regardless, the result is the same, once it hits the digestive system. You can search for info substantiating this claim. You will find articles that say it is absolutely not true, and articles claiming it absolutely is true. This one is pretty ambivalent, covering both sides.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323117.php

There are references and citations, for anyone who wants to take the time to review them. I've long since made up my mind.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

That's a really informative link. It's also very balanced too.

The conclusion is this.

_Scientists widely accept that degraded carrageenan, or poligeenan, can trigger cancer and other health issues. Poligeenan is made by mixing the same seaweed extract with acid. It is a powerful inflammatory agent used in laboratories.

Studies in animals indicate that some food-grade carrageenan can degrade, becoming poligeenan, when it is exposed to stomach acid.

These studies have not shown conclusively whether the amount of degraded carrageenan is dangerous. However, because of the potential risk, no researchers have conducted studies in humans.
_
For us I think it means we should be doing the following.

* Avoid any foods containing carrageenan unless we know it's human grade carrageenan.

* For foods containing human grade carrageenan consider if we feel concerned that the amount that degrades in stomach acid is significant enough to present a danger to our cats

I think at the moment my own conclusion is to avoid it entirely. I'm still liking the cassia gum because if they're using that and declaring it on the label I think it's less likely they're using carrageenan. If there's no note of anything on the label it could contain carrageenan, or cassia gum, or nothing.


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## Hobbs2004! (Dec 24, 2015)

Ok, not directly about the topic, but it might be of interest after all. Did you know that Simpson cat food is manufactured in Germany? I agree, it is like CFF and co and it wouldn't actually surprise me if it was manufactured in the same plant.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Regardless, the result is the same, once it hits the digestive system. You can search for info substantiating this claim. You will find articles that say it is absolutely not true, and articles claiming it absolutely is true. This one is pretty ambivalent, covering both sides.
> 
> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323117.php
> 
> There are references and citations, for anyone who wants to take the time to review them. I've long since made up my mind.


Thanks @lorilu. I have sent the article to Lily's Kitchen and explained that people's concern is that once human-grade carrageenan is mixed with a cat's stomach acid, it may turn into the more dangerous poligeenan and have the same dangerous effects on the cat's digestion. [And the same would go for humans, I guess.]


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I had a reply from the makers of 'Animonda Vom Feinsten for neutered cats' to say they use a very small amount of human grade carrageenan in this food. They consider the amount is too small to be carcinogenic for cats, even with the cat's highly acid stomach environment. I have replied to ask for details of the research on which they are basing their considered opinion. 

I also asked if they have plans to replace the carrageenan with a alternative thickener. They said, 'not at the moment'. But if we keep asking the makers who use carrageenan in their recipes to replace it, there is a chance they will take note. They don't want to lose customers. 

I am continuing to use the AVF for neutered cats, but in smaller amounts; I have partially managed to substitute another make (Wainwrights cans). But with my two boys it is not easy finding foods they can tolerate. That was why I was so pleased to find the 'AVF for neutered cats' a few years ago.


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## Bast (Dec 11, 2017)

According to Zooplus ingredients list:

Bozita in gelatine: _Technological additives:_ Cassia Gum (1.180 mg/kg).
Bozita in sauce: _Technological additives :_ Cassia gum (1.180 mg/kg).
Bozita in cans (410g): _Technological additives:_ Cassia gum (3675 mg/kg).

I have made my share of pressure this week and I am waiting for a few answers too, I will post them when I receive feedback.

Thanks everyone for the great thread and for all your effort.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Bast said:


> According to Zooplus ingredients list:
> 
> Bozita in gelatine: _Technological additives:_ Cassia Gum (1.180 mg/kg).
> Bozita in sauce: _Technological additives :_ Cassia gum (1.180 mg/kg).
> ...


Thank you Bast Ollie eats a little Bozita pate; not much, but at least something!


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## Bast (Dec 11, 2017)

SbanR said:


> Thank you Bast Ollie eats a little Bozita pate; not much, but at least something!


Great, that's a start . Uriel is a bit fussy too and now that we need to make some replacements in his routine, it shall be an interesting journey. I will probably have to bribe him by sprinkling sardines or white fish... 

Cassia gum seems to be the least of the two devils, but I feel if we keep putting pressure on the companies, they will eventually drop all the devils.


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm not convinced cassia gum is something to be avoided. Sure I wouldn't be adding it to my food but I think what I read on it - and I'm not at home so I can't check back - is that unless a car has a reaction to it then it's harmless. 

My main reason for going to foods with cassia gum declared on the label is that I'd they're declaring cassia gum then I think it's unlikely they would use carrageenan and not declare it. 

On the other hand if they want to claim all natural and not declare on the label then it's possibly carrageenan.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2019)

shingigz said:


> Thanks @lorilu. I have sent the article to Lily's Kitchen and explained that people's concern is that once human-grade carrageenan is mixed with a cat's stomach acid, it may turn into the more dangerous poligeenan and have the same dangerous effects on the cat's digestion. [And the same would go for humans, I guess.]


Lily's Kitchen has got back to me to say that:

I should feel assured their recipes are made by their Product Development Team alongside a pet nutritionist and vet, and that they ensure all of the ingredients used are safe for their feline customers. And that pets' safety is everything to them. And that any new findings or articles that are out there have been checked by their team to ensure the ingredients they continue to use are safe. And that they going to pass my feedback on to the relevant team of people.


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## Bast (Dec 11, 2017)

Quartermass said:


> I'm not convinced cassia gum is something to be avoided. Sure I wouldn't be adding it to my food but I think what I read on it - and I'm not at home so I can't check back - is that unless a car has a reaction to it then it's harmless.
> 
> My main reason for going to foods with cassia gum declared on the label is that I'd they're declaring cassia gum then I think it's unlikely they would use carrageenan and not declare it.
> 
> On the other hand if they want to claim all natural and not declare on the label then it's possibly carrageenan.


Yup, I agree with you.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Bast said:


> Great, that's a start . Uriel is a bit fussy too and now that we need to make some replacements in his routine, it shall be an interesting journey. I will probably have to bribe him by sprinkling sardines or white fish...
> 
> Cassia gum seems to be the least of the two devils, but I feel if we keep putting pressure on the companies, they will eventually drop all the devils.


I'm feeling quite chirpy as I've made a good start introducing him to Granatapet, which has no added thickeners. Fingers crossed he continues to eat it


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

SbanR said:


> I'm feeling quite chirpy as I've made a good start introducing him to Granatapet, which has no added thickeners. Fingers crossed he continues to eat it


Hmm. The problem is we don't know if they have or haven't used a thickener. Some don't declare it on the label.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Quartermass said:


> Hmm. The problem is we don't know if they have or haven't used a thickener. Some don't declare it on the label.


You must have missed, or forgotten, my earlier post a few days ago


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## Quartermass (Nov 25, 2016)

Yeah. I'm making a spreadsheet although I've not gone near it for days and one of the tasks is to go through this thread picking up all the responses.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Regardless, the result is the same, once it hits the digestive system. You can search for info substantiating this claim. You will find articles that say it is absolutely not true, and articles claiming it absolutely is true. This one is pretty ambivalent, covering both sides.
> 
> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323117.php
> 
> There are references and citations, for anyone who wants to take the time to review them. I've long since made up my mind.


I agree, I've already decided that the risks aren't worth it and so going to avoid carrageenan (once existing stocks are used up). Luckily we have figured out a wide rotation of brands that she will eat and thanks to the findings on this thread, they mostly don't have carrageenan. I can live with the cassia gum but might phase them out too.



Hobbs2004! said:


> Ok, not directly about the topic, but it might be of interest after all. Did you know that Simpson cat food is manufactured in Germany? I agree, it is like CFF and co and it wouldn't actually surprise me if it was manufactured in the same plant.


Yes, I think I read Simpson's said that the UK canned industry isn't of the high standard compared to Germany so their wet food is made in Germany but they make their dry in the UK. They sent an email in late February to say their prices would be going up in March but I haven't noticed the change to wet food.

https://www.simpsonspremium.com/faqs/general/products
"All our dry products and treats are made here in the UK. Our wet food is made in Germany as we feel they currently make the best products to suit our needs. The range of organic ingredients in Europe is much better than we have currently available in the UK for the pet food market."


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Brand new shredded on the market Purr and Miaow that @Treaclesmum posted on Sunday.

"Thank you for your email.
I can confirm that we do not include additional undeclared additives in our wet food."

They would be the only shredded other than Thrive that don't have a thickener (even Canagan has tapioca)

They also have a pouch recycling scheme for the cost of postage.

About 74 calories a pouch which I like. Got to get my hands on this to try :Cat


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Saffy Cat said:


> Brand new shredded on the market Purr and Miaow that @Treaclesmum posted on Sunday.
> 
> "Thank you for your email.
> I can confirm that we do not include additional undeclared additives in our wet food."
> ...


Before you get too enthusiastic about this food, protein is 8.7% and carbs 4.4-%. That's a lot of carbs!!!


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Awww, I just ordered from Amazon! Can't help being enthusiastic. It ticks so many other boxes.

How did you get 4.4% carbs? I got 2.6%?
Thrive is 0.4% but that could be just rounding to get to 100%


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Pea starch is the cause of the carb. I can live with that as it’s going to be rotated in weekly


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

We seem to be looking at different figures @Saffy Cat . 
Screenshot of figures given by [email protected]
Ash is where it comes out different


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Ahh, that’s what it is. [email protected] have ash at 0%. Well done. 

I had the same problem with zooplus. Their ingredient data didn’t match the ingredients for Applaws pate on the manufacturers website. Applaws said they would get zooplus to fix but it didn’t update when I last looked.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Leonardo cat food 

“yes, there is a need for the binding of free water in the moist petfood which occurs in the cooking process. 
We are using no cassia gum, but carob, guar gum and carrageenan for this purpose”


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2019)

Saffy Cat said:


> Leonardo cat food
> 
> "yes, there is a need for the binding of free water in the moist petfood which occurs in the cooking process.
> We are using no cassia gum, but carob, guar gum and carrageenan for this purpose"


It's great to know though, isn't it. Knowledge is power.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Saffy Cat said:


> Leonardo cat food
> 
> "yes, there is a need for the binding of free water in the moist petfood which occurs in the cooking process.
> We are using no cassia gum, but carob, guar gum and carrageenan for this purpose"


My awkward devil has a definite preference for foods with carrageenan


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

SbanR said:


> My awkward devil has a definite preference for foods with carrageenan


Oh no!


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

Herrmann’s Organic 

“we use only the ingredients as declared an the label”


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

I think this is the last manufacturer request from me

Eden Cat food

“Thank you for your e-mail and interest in Eden!

We do not put any additives such as Carrageena or Cassia Gum into our food as we believe in using ethically sourced products that supports animal health. We do put in nutrional additives ;please see below what is put into the wetfood :

COMPOSITION
Chicken 55%, Salmon 15%, Broth: 26%, Vegetables: Peas 0.3%, Sweet Potato 0.2%, Carrots 0.2%, Fruits: Blueberries 0.5%, Goji Berries 0.5%, Minerals, Oils and Fats: Linseed Oil 0.2%, Botanicals: Turmeric 0.1%, MOS 0.1%, FOS 0.1%, Glucosamine 0.01%, Chondroitin 0.01%.
ANALYTICAL CONSTITUENTS
Protein 10.3%, Fat 5.3%, Crude ash 2.5%, Crude fibre 0.4%, Moisture 79%, Omega 3: 0.05%, Omega 6: 0.02%.
NUTRITIONAL ADDITIVES
Vitamins: Vitamin D3 200 I.U., Vitamin E as alpha tocopherol acetate 20 I.E, Vitamin C 40mg, Vitamin B1 10mg, Vitamin B2 6mg, Vitamin B6 2mg, Vitamin B12 75mcg, Vitamin B3 (Nicotinamide) 15mg, Vitamin B5 (Ca-Pantothenate) 9mg.
TRACE ELEMENTS
Folic acid 0.35mg, Biotin 300mcg, Choline chloride 1200mg, Zinc as zinc chelate of glycine hydrate 25mg, Manganese as manganese chelate of glycine hydrate 1.4 mg, Iodine as anhydrous calcium iodate 0.75mg, Taurine 1500mg.”

It’s got some prebiotics mixed in on this. I don’t know much about the fructosaccharides. They sound a bit like putting a positive spin on sugar molecules.

Has anyone tried the wet food? Could you share thoughts on this if you have?


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## dugpa (Apr 1, 2019)

Deleted member 1482176 said:


> Edited for legal/confidentiality reasons, but Blink's wet cat food pouches contains:
> 
> *Natural Aspic Jelly - This contains a small amount of refined Carrageenan*.


I picked up some Blink pouches in Tesco last night and I was glad to find that my super-fussy cat loved them (he has so far only shown in interest in Wainwright's pouches). Then I found this thread which worried me, so I contacted Blink. I just had an online chat with a representative from the company and she assured me that Blink pouches do not contain any Carrageenan. I shared this thread with her and she said she might post an official comment to set some minds at ease.


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## Saffy Cat (Sep 20, 2018)

dugpa said:


> I picked up some Blink pouches in Tesco last night and I was glad to find that my super-fussy cat loved them (he has so far only shown in interest in Wainwright's pouches). Then I found this thread which worried me, so I contacted Blink. I just had an online chat with a representative from the company and she assured me that Blink pouches do not contain any Carrageenan. I shared this thread with her and she said she might post an official comment to set some minds at ease.


Thank you for double checking. It seems they gave out contradictory information when asked. It's good if it is declared officially on their website for clarification.

I wish manufacturers would just list everything they used for full transparency.

I wrote to Carnilove last week and they seemed to imply that EU law requires this disclosure. I would still question manufacturers though as we have seen how many came back with undeclared additives and sometimes by product type.

"There are no undeclared additives. All the ingredients and additives used in food are listed in the composition"
"We are in EU, our foods are ONLY produced in EU, that means we should strongly keep European law. According to this one is necessary to know that everything what is used in certain product should be written in part of etiquette heading "Composition" and vice versa, what is written in this "Composition" should be in certain product. It is European directive"


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