# Clicker training a child!



## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

I will start by saying I am not judging, people can bring their children up how they want. This is more out of interest, trying to find out if there are any benefits and if anyone has tried this.

The other day I saw someone clicker training their child. Now I had never seen this before, I heard the noise and was looking round for a dog then I realised the click was directed at the child. The parent asked the child to do something and when the child did she clicked and then the child was rewarded not with food but in another way. 

This intrigued me, has anyone on here tried this? Surely a child would react just as well to the same reward and an explanation of why she was getting it? Is there any research evidence on this being a good way to teach children?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Never heard of this before but whatever floats your boat :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2011)

Staffx said:


> I will start by saying I am not judging, people can bring their children up how they want. This is more out of interest, trying to find out if there are any benefits and if anyone has tried this.
> 
> The other day I saw someone clicker training their child. Now I had never seen this before, I heard the noise and was looking round for a dog then I realised the click was directed at the child. The parent asked the child to do something and when the child did she clicked and then the child was rewarded not with food but in another way.
> 
> This intrigued me, has anyone on here tried this? Surely a child would react just as well to the same reward and an explanation of why she was getting it? Is there any research evidence on this being a good way to teach children?


:scared::scared::scared: Best hope they don' t decide to use an e clooar then on a particulary difficult child


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Clicking with Kids | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

Says its been popular for a few years, using them on children


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## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> :scared::scared::scared: Best hope they don' t decide to use an e clooar then on a particulary difficult child


:lol: Just the thought of that has me laughing, could you imagine a kid walking down the street with their parents then they look at an expensive toys, then they get a shock! :lol:


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## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

jamie1977 said:


> Clicking with Kids | Karen Pryor Clickertraining
> 
> Says its been popular for a few years, using them on children


Maybe it is becoming more common, I'll have to get some practise in with my dog before I have children


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They use it in sports etc can't see why you couldn't or some kind of marker word to improve behaviour. The principle been around for a long time and surely the kid would keep doing a behaviour if you rewarded them with whatever. Pretty sure using a shock collar on a human would be illegal and inhumane as it should be on dogs


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

It's been used with autistic children I believe


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## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

Nicky10, how do they use it in sport?

It definitly shocked me when I first saw it but I could see a use for it now, I could get how it would work in autistic children.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They use it for swimmers to get their arms/legs positions right if I remember correctly. I don't know read it ages ago


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I'm sorry but if you have to clicker train your child then it's pretty *PATHETIC*

What is the world coming to? Good grief.

Could we clicker train some parents in being better parents then?

What was the reward by the way?

I would be so embarrased if my parent's f-ing clickered me, I'd clicker them. Then we'd have a click off at dawn.


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## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> I'm sorry but if you have to clicker train your child then it's pretty *PATHETIC*
> 
> What is the world coming to? Good grief.
> 
> ...


As I said I was trying not to judge, although it is definitly a technique I wouldn't use on children it is very much each to their own. I am however interested in its sporting application as I am a keen rugby player and coach.

The reward was a string of beads, she moved one down when she got a click, I can only assume if all go down there is a reward.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Don't know specifically about clicking them but I do know that the positive reinforcement theory behind clicker training does work brilliantly on children, much better than punitive methods.

Which do you think works better -

_Eat all of your food or you are going straight to bed​_
or

_Eat all of your food and you can have ice cream​_
I have tried it on my own kids but it is difficult to maintain over a period of time, purely because of the way humans work regarding motivational rewards. In order to keep their interest the reward must increase in value as the task is repeated, plus they get bored a lot quicker than dogs, lol.

Hmmm, I sense an experiment coming on!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I find the idea degrading and can't imagine the psychological damage when the child is old enough to realise that it is being trained just like a dog. It is unnecessary in a child that can understand your language and who you can explain things to. Or have parents forgotten how to talk to their children as well as how to be polite to them.

A dog does not understand our language, his brain does not work in the same way as a human. I could possibly understand doing this with a child who did not understand, i.e. autistic, but even then I find it a bit dubious.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Wow so much misunderstanding about clicker training 

Its not about a little plastic box or a special sound. Its about being a good shaper of behaviour, using positive reinforcement and management to help the learner make the right choices, its about being responsible for the learner's progress.

If you are genuinely interested in offering this as a way of guiging any and all animals maybe check out TAGteach which is the human application of clicker training.
They have a site and blog:
TAGteach International | Sports, Dance and Special Needs Teaching
TAGteach


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2011)

I dont see the problem.. it just means the kid gets rewards for doing good things off their own back...there is no bartering with the kid "do this and il let you do this"...the kid will know that after ten clicks/beads then they get a reward of some description...

It means it encourages good behaviour over a longer period than IMMEDIATE gratification. They may have to do 5 or 10 good things to get a reward..so they will behave off their own back.

I think people get outraged too easily these days lol...

Personally I think it would imprint the action better than interrupting it with explaining... probably why they use it in sport, its non intrusive/interrupting behaviour shaping


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## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

Tripod, thanks for the website, this definitly shows how it can be used in sporting applications, very interesting.

Savahl, I don't see a problem either, not something I would personally use but each to their own. I was just wondering about its application in humans and whether there was any evidence or anyone had any experience as yes it did shock me but I wanted to find out more info before forming an opinion and I thought this forum was the best place. I however also see it as another reward system no different to systems where children collect stars for good behaviour etc, is there a need for a clicker, that maybe is debatable but I do think a lot of parents use similar systems and it is certainly not something to be outraged about.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

When my children were small, and later my grandchildren, I would ask them to do something to help mummy or grandma. That was always good enough for them, they did not need rewards, they just wanted to help.

If you have a relationship of mutual respect with your children, you should not need to be bribing them with rewards. You might perhaps cook them their favourite dinner or let them watch their favourite tv programme, when you really wanted to watch something else, but I never said "do this and I will make your favourite dinner". That is called compromise and it worked for me.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

But newfiesmum that is a reward - especailly to young children as social acceptance is very very important in this straightforward form to them.
If behaviour is likely to be repeated something is reinforcing it and if they are getting something pleasant out of it than its R+.

This is where dog trainers often get hung up on the use of food, toys whatever - calling it bribery.
If behaviour is more likely to be repeated something is R+ it. That's not bribery.
Rewards used properly is NOT bribery. And what it does, through classical conditioning, is form pleasant associations with the teacher, situation, behaviour etc. so soon external rewards/motivation are no longer needed as the carrying out of the behaviour itself has become intrinsically rewarding.

Did anyone actually look at the application of clicker training for people? There are no 'treats' following the click. The sound or marker is used to mark exactly the criteria being worked on. The student is an active participant and therefore understands the intrinsic reward of carrying out the behaviour successfully. This is about shaping, which we have all been exposed to while learning any new skill or improving an existing one.

But whats wrong with rewarding children? Why should we just expect them to get on with tasks that they find unpleasant? Just because that was the way it was for us? 'Just because' isn't good enough a reason. I don't work for free (although sometimes it feels like I do lol!) not because my job is unpleasant, I do an awful lot for free, but I do have to eat. I don't expect anyone to develop new skills (behaviours) without guidance and the way to get it repeated AND form positive associations through classical conditioning is with R+. Learning is happening in sub-conscious and conscious areas of the brain and success begets success especially to those sub-conscious processes.

So when does a reward become a bribe? When the behaviour being carried out is only contingent on the reward being present. 
In dog training, this would be if we asked for the behaviour having shown the animal the 'treat' ("here's a treat doggie, now 'sit'"). This is the biggest mistake people make when using rewards in training - now we have a dog who only knows the behaviour when rewards are present and obvious.

We need to teach the learner the connection between their behaviour and good things happening. Thats why these results of behaviours, in behaviourism, are called consequences.
When dealing with most people this can be explained to them. But sometimes this is not possible with humans incapable of rationalising behavioural consequences. BF Skinner, the person best known for developing operant conditioning and clicker training was devoted to developing ways of teaching animals and humans without force and using shaping. He took it from the lab to improve the lives of real people and animals.

The way that non-human animals and humans learn are basically the same. There are obviously cognitive differences but the foundation of it is practically identical.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Meh - I'd rather just yell at them.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Staffx said:


> I'll have to get some practise in with my dog before I have children


Not much difference. Dogs are just more grateful and don't ask to borrow the car!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jonesey said:


> Meh - I'd rather just yell at them.


Ah, yes the good old days:lol:

Tripod, I can see what you mean, but as I said, the action is not linked to any reward. It wasn't a case of do this for me and I'll do this for you. I might well not do anything in return at that actual moment, there is no need to do anything in return really. I can't be the only one whose children did things for them because I asked and for no other reason?

Dogs are different. You can't reason with a dog, he has to have his reward, his wages or he won't do anything.

I can see a resemblance in the dog and child training in that if they were a real pain, they did get put in another room to cool off, just like a puppy would, but I think a clicker is going to far. It reminds of the Sound of Music, where the captain used his whistle to call his seven children.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Tripod, I can see what you mean, but as I said, the action is not linked to any reward. It wasn't a case of do this for me and I'll do this for you. I might well not do anything in return at that actual moment, there is no need to do anything in return really. I can't be the only one whose children did things for them because I asked and for no other reason?
> 
> Dogs are different. You can't reason with a dog, he has to have his reward, his wages or he won't do anything.


But isn't your acceptance and approval of their actions a reward in itself? If there is no consequence to their actions then what motivated them to perform them?

Having two young children (6 and 11) myself I can honestly say that things are very different to when I was a child (not so long ago, lol, OK 70's and 80's). Children are exposed to a vastly greater sphere of influences that simply didn't exist back then and their experiences and motivations are not limited to one source, ie their parents. +R with children is a very powerful tool but while simple in theory, has to be applied with care. I think that where children and animals differ is that often with children, apart from having far more complicated psychology in the first place, there is also an emotional element that comes into play.

My children respond very well to +R, but I have had to learn that there is a very fine line between a reward and a bribe, and that they have a unique talent for manipulating one into the other! And yes, I have on occasion been outsmarted by a 6 year old!

From my experience, the key element of clicker training is not the actual training of specific behaviours, but the overall shift in watching how the dog learns, and subsequently how I learn how he learns, if that makes sense! I find it fascinating to watch him trying to figure out what he is supposed to be doing and then there is always a moment when the penny drops and you can just see that having learnt the behaviour for himself is a reinforcement on its own.

This is the difference, and it applies equally to any subject, dog, child or whatever, guiding (shaping) the subject to learn the behaviour for themselves is far more effective than just throwing at them. Just like how we were all taught in school, we learnt how to work out the answers, rather than just being told to memorise them, which then gives us the ability to work out answers to things that we haven't already experienced.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

> But isn't your acceptance and approval of their actions a reward in itself? If there is no consequence to their actions then what motivated them to perform them?


Very true. A radio station I listen to has the 'brain strain' every day. Yesterday it went something like this;

A poll on college student reveals that they feel *this* is better than money, sex, booze etc.. What is it?

Answer: praise

This +R stuff has been around for a long time. Sticker charts, sliding scales, it's all pretty much the same thing. I say pick and choose what gets a reward and give lots of verbal praise for a job well done.


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## fifimcq (Oct 14, 2010)

I have to say I have been considering clicker training myself with my 5yr old son who is low on the autistic spectrum with a "social & communication developmental delay" diagnosis,basically he does sort of catch up eventually but behind other kids.He will be 6 soon & in full time education but we still have 2yr old tantrums & I have been at the end of my tether with ways to manage his behaviour (he just does not understand at times)..........so I thought to myself I could try a clicker to try & encourage him to recognise good behaviour & a reward which in our case is a 1p for making a good choice..........it might be mad but anything is worth a try as there are times when my sanity wanes to the degree of me declaring to my husband that he will find me in the field rocking beside the watering hole:thumbup:


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

fifimcq said:


> I have to say I have been considering clicker training myself with my 5yr old son who is low on the autistic spectrum with a "social & communication developmental delay" diagnosis,basically he does sort of catch up eventually but behind other kids.He will be 6 soon & in full time education but we still have 2yr old tantrums & I have been at the end of my tether with ways to manage his behaviour (he just does not understand at times)..........so I thought to myself I could try a clicker to try & encourage him to recognise good behaviour & a reward which in our case is a 1p for making a good choice..........it might be mad but anything is worth a try as there are times when my sanity wanes to the degree of me declaring to my husband that he will find me in the field rocking beside the watering hole:thumbup:


I really can't see any reason why it wouldn't work and it's definitely worth a try. What do you have to lose?

Don't forget that your marker doesn't necessarily have to be a clicker, it could be something fun like a bell or a horn, even a crazy word that is only ever used specifically for that purpose. I could imagine that being quite entertaining for a child.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> *But isn't your acceptance and approval of their actions a reward in itself? If there is no consequence to their actions then what motivated them to perform them?*
> 
> Having two young children (6 and 11) myself I can honestly say that things are very different to when I was a child (not so long ago, lol, OK 70's and 80's). Children are exposed to a vastly greater sphere of influences that simply didn't exist back then and their experiences and motivations are not limited to one source, ie their parents. +R with children is a very powerful tool but while simple in theory, has to be applied with care. I think that where children and animals differ is that often with children, apart from having far more complicated psychology in the first place, there is also an emotional element that comes into play.
> 
> ...


That is exactly my point. They did things for me because they wanted to please me, not for any specific reward. I had the same relationship with my grandchildren, the first of whom was born in 1991. I wouldn't want my children to grow up thinking that if ever they did a favour for someone, they were entitled to expect something in return. I do favours for people all the time, especially my children even though they are adults now, and I don't even consider what I could get in return. Neither do they when they do things for me.

Last year I had my debit card cloned and lost all the money out of my account. I had not a penny. My youngest daughter in Australia promptly asked me for my bank details so she could transfer some money for me, my eldest daughter turned up that very day with £200 and even my son, who has learning difficulties and does not understand money at all, told me he wouldn't go on his holiday that he had been saving up for, but give the money to me. Not one of them has ever mentioned it when they wanted something from me.

This is just an example, and you can certainly get your fingers burned by helping out the wrong people, but it is the way we are and I rather like it that way.


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## fifimcq (Oct 14, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I really can't see any reason why it wouldn't work and it's definitely worth a try. What do you have to lose?
> 
> Don't forget that your marker doesn't necessarily have to be a clicker, it could be something fun like a bell or a horn, even a crazy word that is only ever used specifically for that purpose. I could imagine that being quite entertaining for a child.


I did originally take advice from specialists with regards children with needs who were slightly different from the general category of children & was a little taken aback when it was suggested what I deemed as bribery to encourage good behaviour (mum of 4,2 of which are grown up) but on reflection it has had it's benefits but now I need a clear indicator of what is good as praise does not work.I have to say I like your idea of a bell or other fun item to indicate this :thumbsup:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Jonesey said:


> Very true. A radio station I listen to has the 'brain strain' every day. Yesterday it went something like this;
> 
> A poll on college student reveals that they feel *this* is better than money, sex, booze etc.. What is it?
> 
> ...


Yup that's the point - for social species like us, social acceptance is a primary motivator


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

a search on YouTube for "tag-teach" + "autism" - 
YouTube - tag-teach, autism

another search for tag-teach + gymnastics - 
YouTube - tag-teach, gymnastics

there are literally hundreds of videos - one 22-YO man who is ADD has trouble tracking everything he must do, 
he's a FT-college student, an employee, has appts, a car, bills... 
and at work [waiting tables in an upscale sushi restaurant], entering orders is crucial; he created his own 
tag-point to remind himself when to place his orders, and fixed his own problem.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

I found this quite interesting- I have an 18 month old.
I think positive reinforcement is one of the best concepts ever. You don't necessarily have to promise an item to the child, you could just say for example "I know this isn't your favourite dinner, but if you would eat it, it would make mummy very happy". At the end of the day children want to appease you, this is why if they do something that makes you laugh, they constantly repeat the action.
Using a clicker can have it's uses, with regards to the whole sports/autism aspect, but using it to teach a child who isn't playing sports, or doesn't have autism etc, just seems a bit weird. I don't think you should have to resort to that really. But as said above, each to their own. I might have to eat my words someday if I have a child who isn't as well behaved as my little one now!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> ...using [an audible tag] to teach a child who isn't playing sports,
> or doesn't have autism etc, just seems a bit weird.


did U watch any of the videos? the primary advantage is accuracy, and in gymnastics, etc, 
muscle-memory captures the whole body effect when it is being done *right.*

rather than a teacher incessantly interrupting to say, lift Ur chin, point this foot, lift Ur ribs, lengthen... 
the entire gestalt is captured + recalled easily. speed of learning is considerably improved, 
and the students are less anxious, since they get less criticism + more clarity.

watch the young ballerinas tagging each other, or the divers being tagged in midair - 
U can see the advantages very quickly! 

of course, it also gets used in math, etc.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

What I meant was (maybe I didn't phrase it right) that it seems weird outside of those settings, as in if you're at home and your kid hangs up their coat and you clicker them? You can just say thanks for hanging up your coat!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Liquidsunshine said:


> What I meant was (maybe I didn't phrase it right) that it seems weird outside of those settings, as in if you're at home and your kid hangs up their coat and you clicker them? You can just say thanks for hanging up your coat!


That is exactly what I was saying: treat the children with the same respect and courtesy you would give an adult, and they will do the same for you.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> ...it seems weird outside of those settings, as in,
> _you're at home, and your kid hangs up their coat, and you [click for that behavior]?_
> You can just say thanks for hanging up your coat!


it depends - usually it is for a chain of behaviors, things done in sequence - 
tie one's shoe, dance the tango, exercise at the barre, execute a forward-roll on a balance-beam... 
but for kids who forget, or have a habit [toss the coat on a chair as they walk by], 
TAggING can really help underline it - especially if the child has a tag-recorder and moves a bead each time. 
10-beads = their choice for a Saturday activity, for example.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I was just looking for the TAG teach thingy when Tripod posted it :thumbup:

As far as I understand it, a child being taught something with a clicker isn't expecting a reward in the same way as a dog does; the reward is that they are learning something faster.

Also, rather than learning by correction "No, that's not right.... no, that's still not right...." and being PUT into position (I'm thinking more of the gymnastic/swimming type training), they are learning to put THEMSELVES into the right position. Therefore, they build up "muscle memory".

It's the same principle as a dog learning to sit by itself rather than having its bum pushed down.

ETA - or what LeashedForLife said. Must read whole thread before replying lol!


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