# No such thing as a bad dog ... only bad owners. Is that true? What do you think?



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm sat here reading an old Valerie O'Farrell book called "Problem Dog" (printed in 1990). It's very interesting.

She says:


> There is also the commonly held view that 'there are no bad dogs, only bad owners'. If someone has a problem with a dog it must be his own fault.
> Unfortunately, this is a myth. There are plenty of dogs on the market who are potential trouble looking for a place to happen. That place could be the home of any nice, ordinary, unsuspecting dog lover.


So what do you think? Is she right?

Should we sometimes just admit that a dog is beyond all help and would be better off euthanised (as she later suggests in the chapter)?

Interested to hear other people's views on this.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

This old saw is just that, an old saw.

Dogs, like humans (and other animals) can be born with and/or develop behavioural problems which can be directly attributed to poor genetic backgrounds and not all are curable.

There are plenty of dangerous dogs whose owners have been beyond reproach and the opposits is also true.

To suggest otherwise is not only ill advised but dangerous and puts an unbearable burden of misplaced guilt on to good owners.

Nurture cannot replace or repair every problem created by nature.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2012)

Ah the old nature/nurture debate.

Sorry in advance for indulging in a personal story here for a minute...
We have a great dane who had spent a good deal of time roaming loose in a local state park. Vast area, he was fending for himself, and had subsequently been shot at least twice. According to the folks who live out there, the local authorities had been trying to catch him for at least 5 months. He would not approach humans, not even for food, despite being emaciated. They finally caught him in a live trap that they had to set out on more than one occasion. 

By the time this guy ended up with us, besides his physical issues, and guarding issues, he also had a lot of fear issues. But (and here's where I'm getting to the point), I firmly believe this dog is not a fearful dog by nature. He was simply a dog who had learned to distrust humans for very valid reasons.

Over the last nearly three years, this dog has blossomed and completely transformed in to a different dog. The dog who would run and hide at the sound of a stapler, now sleeps through nerf gun wars and screaming kids. 
Its just not his nature to be fearful. So with sensible training, counter-conditioning and desensitization, he is now rock steady in any situation. In fact so steady, that he passed his therapy dog evaluation just this weekend. No small feat for a dog who was deemed unadoptable by the shelter.

Now, before you go thinking we're some amazing trainers, let me tell you about our other dog  We have another dog who came to us with a very sad start, he came as a puppy, found under a mobile home, who knows what happened to mom and littermates. This dog has also been CC/DS and trained sensibly, but he has always been and will always be a fearful dog. Or as we fondly say, he has a highly developed sense of self-preservation. He has great skills, he knows where his safe spots are, he knows how to ask me or DH for help if he's overwhelmed, and he knows we will listen, so despite his fears, he is a safe dog and not one who will lash out. But he will never have the confidence our dane boy does. He's just not that dog.

Temperament really is 50/50 nature vs. nurture. Training can help a dog gain good coping skills, but in the end the dog is who the dog is. 

I do think some dogs end up way worse than they would be had they lived in different homes, but I also think that there are plenty of dogs out there that you could do absolutely everything "wrong" and you would still end up with a solid, trustworthy dog. In fact I see this more often than not. Kind of hard to convince someone to change their ways when they've had 5 other dogs who did not react negatively to harsh handling...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Just bad owners…? I really like this blog entry I found and agree with the author.

I don't believe the "no bad dogs, only bad owners" thing. I don't believe dogs are purposely "bad" but to say all problems are caused by bad ownership is just plain wrong imo.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree with the other replies; I don't think that some 'problem 'dogs can be 'cured' even with the most caring & knowledgeable owners. 

I also don't believe it always the fault of the owner should a dog develop behavioral problems, there may be a variety of reasons why these have occurred. 

IMO having a dog pts is sometimes thes best & kindest thing to do if the dog is never going to get a good home, is never going to be happy or will never be safe around others.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

My staffy x is naturally wary of people and no matter how many positive introductions he has he still will not tolerate strangers approaching him. 

My 2 Greek rescues (formerly street dogs) survived by staying away from the locals. 4 years later they are still distrustful of the human race. 

These issues do not make them bad dogs. But if I do not keep them under control and manage their "issues" it makes me a very bad owner. 

So no... There are no bad dogs just bad owners.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I think to put all aggressive/excessively fearful down to humans is unrealsitic. To be true, this would make puppies totally devoid of natural character, which is clearly wrong when you see a litter of puppies that have had the same interaction and experiences. Why should they be the only species seen like this? Why should dogs not be subject to the same anomalies of brain chemistry/mental illness as humans, or other species?


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Question ,, how did the problem dog get to be a problem?

Born that way or made that way by bad ownership/ human interaction?

Define problem ,, to one man a problem may be what another looks to be desirable.


As humans we keep dogs, we breed dogs, we are responsible for dogs.

Dont blame the dog it doesnt know our rules but we do.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

dorrit said:


> Question ,, how did the problem dog get to be a problem?
> 
> Born that way or made that way by bad ownership/ human interaction?
> 
> ...


Yep, just as humans are born with/develop (insert relevant mental condition).

totally down to our breeding decisions..........and rearing.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I have no evidence or clever theories to back me up - just a general feeling and my personal opinion.

I think the majority of 'bad' dogs are that way because of the people involved in their lives. (through intentional and unintentional actions)
However I also believe a significant minority are 'bad' in their makeup and no matter how they are raised from puppies they will never be well adjusted dogs. (an example of this would be my friends Cocker Spaniel diagnosed with 'rage syndrome' the vet believed bought on by poor breeding practices)

I also think some dogs are too damaged by humans to be rehabilitated and the kindest and safest thing would be to PTS.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Well I am not really experienced enough to comment - but I know what my Dad would say. My parents have raised two dogs from pups and adopted two rescue dogs. One of the dogs they raised from a pup was aggressive. 

No amount of training completely solved the problem and he could be aggressive with his owners as well as family members. So as a responsible pet owner you know you have tried your best to solve the problem but you also know your dog will bite even you - never mind strangers.

I actually think that Dad was being a "good owner" when he made the decision to have this dog put to sleep - even though he admits he felt like he had failed and it was very upsetting.

We have just taken on a rescue dog who has a few problems and its a huge responsibility. Being a good dog owner means so many different things, ensuring the dog has a happy life, keeping him safe and healthy, making sure he is not a danger to anyone else, training him to behave in an appropriate manner in public etc. These things are my responsibility but if I fail does that mean he is a bad dog who is beyond help or that I am just a bad owner?

I just dont think its as clear cut as that.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, I do believe there are bad dogs. Dogs are sentient beings, just like humans, and I believe that there are always going to be 'bad eggs' who will remain 'bad eggs' no matter what you do with them because it's in their genes.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks for your replies everyone...interesting.

I finished the book last night and it seems that there are many ways to end up with a 'bad dog'.

Here are a few: Poor mating to begin with, pups being nursed by neurotic adult dogs, poor socialisation, neurotic humans projecting their own feelings onto the dog, physical and/or mental deformities in the dog, use of shock collars.

What I will say is this:

Next time I am in the park and I see a handler struggling with their dog, I won't assume it's because the handler is less experienced or less able than other handlers. It might just be a decent, dog loving person trying to give a problem dog a second chance at life!

So glad I read the book and your responses!


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

classixuk said:


> Next time I am in the park and I see a handler struggling with their dog, I won't assume it's because the handler is less experienced or less able than other handlers. It might just be a decent, dog loving person trying to give a problem dog a second chance at life!
> 
> So glad I read the book and your responses!


I was guilty of this before getting my dog. I did tend to judge everyone I saw struggling with their dogs as....not so much bad owners, but uneducated on proper dog training/control.
But getting Dresden opened my eyes! Suddenly, I was the one struggling on a walk, and paranoid about how people passing me were going to view me!
I was always a bit of the view 'if you stick to the tried and trusted methods of dog training, it'll work out in the end, and if it isn't working, you're obviously not doing it right!'
Then I got Dresden and realised some of the 'tried and trusted' methods, the ones most people recommended, the ones I'd used on other dogs, weren't working on him!

I still do see this attitude from some people though: 'this is the way you solve this behaviour problem, and if its not working for your dog, you're doing it wrong'. The trainer at puppy class was this way. She didn't accept that 'yelping like a puppy' to stop puppy biting just didn't work for Dresden and got him more hyped up; she just accused me of not doing it properly 
Its just not true.
They're all individuals. Not every person responds exactly the same way to the same things, so not every dog will either.

As people say, genetics can play a huge role.
I know this just by my rats alone. I had an oops litter here once, and kept all 3 babies. I raised all 3 identically, but while two were outgoing, licky, boisterous and bold, one was lazy, disinterested in cuddles, not bothered about exploring as much, more content to just chill out and eat/sleep. 
And we noticed he was markedly different from about 2-3 weeks of age.
His brother and sister will race to the bars to see you; he'll sit at the back like 'oh, its you....y'alright?' and go back to lounging.
Weirdly, he isn't anything like his mum or his dad: they're both the outgoing, licky, overly friendly types. This boy doesn't act like either of them, perhaps he acts more like a granddad or a rat further back in his family.

Humans show this, too. Siblings who were raised the same way, and one is a tearaway while the other is an A student. 
I don't automatically blame all parents for bad kids, either. A lot, yes. But I've known some wonderful parents who, from my view, did everything right but still ended up with PITA kids. 
I knew one woman whose 13 year old son used to beat her up  And she was a lovely woman, raised her kids wonderfully, and only one of them turned out like this. I couldn't, in all honesty, say it was something she'd done wrong.

While it can be damaging to believe that nothing is _ever_ your own fault and is just 'the way the dog is', it can be just as damaging for people to believe _everything _is their fault.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Leanne77 said:


> Yes, I do believe there are bad dogs. Dogs are sentient beings, just like humans, and I believe that there are always going to be 'bad eggs' who will remain 'bad eggs' no matter what you do with them because it's in their genes.


The difficulty with the term 'bad' or 'bad egg' is that it implies that the dog makes a conscious, MORAL decision about their behaviour and chooses the 'immoral' choice- like a human criminal would. 
Dogs are amoral; they have no moral reasoning. They do not choose certain behaviours to 'deliberately' be mean or do wrong to someone out of sheer malice or nastiness. They do it to protect themselves because they are fearful or insecure or genetically disadvantaged (seizures, illness, response to pain). They are not plotting their behaviour over time, they merely react to problematic situations they meet.

Yes, there are dogs that are of 'questionable' temperament; that have been poorly bred and are therefore genetically fearful and will have a preference for making 'poor' choices around feared stimuli (reactivity or aggression) because these sorts of reactions will always be produced when extreme stress is produced and they ALWAYS get the desired response (scary thing goes away/retreats/stops). The difference between these and 'normal' dogs is that they are always pretty stressed and so do not take much to push over threshold. Their tolerance for 'new' situations or a combination of low level triggers is not much.

Many 'difficult' dogs can be worked with. Ultimately it depends on the intensity of their fears and problems. In many cases there are multiple factors going on (i.e. behavioural combined with health problems). And in other cases they can be worked with long term and safely managed and lead a good life and kept out of trouble and safe. Sometimes very difficult dogs can be managed and lead a happy life in controlled and quiet environments.

Yes, sadly there are 'difficult' dogs for whom considering euthanasia may be an option and kinder for the animal- if their behaviour cannot be managed and the dog is so chronically stressed that they cannot perform normal behaviour patterns and they have zero quality of life. 

Owning a 'difficult' dog is very emotionally draining and hard work and it takes lots of dedication to keep them safe/out of trouble but it can be done and it can be a positive experience (knowing that you are giving a very needy animal a home in which it can enjoy life, which would have impossible otherwise).

When looking at behaviour generally, it is best to adopt the diathesis stress model; with consideration for both nature (genetics etc) and nurture (experiences, socialization). They are very often interlinked


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Our standards for dogs are pretty high, too.
I know for a fact that if I were a dog, I'd be considered a 'problem' dog. Anxiety, OCD, and I'd probably have resource guarding issues too. And I'd likely snap at kids.
In fact, Im sure we all know people, or ARE people, who have issues that if they were in a dog we'd consider big problems. Dogs are expected to be behaviourally almost perfect. I don't know many humans who are free of behavioural issues of some kind!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Robert Sapolsky's book Monkeyluv is a great read re the nature v nurture debate!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I know from owning Chance who is most definitely a 'problem' dog it is exhausting at times! But with care and training he has overcome alot of his fears and anxieties will he ever be completely 'cured' no i highly doubt it. Certain things i would say are no longer an issue to him BUT his people aggression will always be there to some degree, it is managed for peoples safety.

Do i believe that his problems are down to his traumatic past or genes? quite honestly i don't know i have no idea of his breeding but i know his experiences as a pup will most definitely have contributed anything else well who knows?


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