# Is my kitten Havana Brown?



## CrystalCat (Jul 28, 2013)

Hi everyone

I recently got two new kittens - they're siblings and were just bred from a moggie (mother) and a Siamese father who I didn't see. She is a patchy lilac brown & white tiny little female who is super shy and sweet. I took her dark brown brother because he looked really different. As he gets older he looks extremely different than any other cat, so many people comment on him I'm worried he'll get stolen when he eventually goes out.

Now he's growing into quite an unusual looking cat, I did some research and I seriously think he's by some accidental glitch an Havana Brown / SCB. He's 100% chestnut brown, he has barely perceptible tabby 'shadow', his nose is the same colour as his fur, his whiskers are also dark brown but slightly 'crinkly', his paws are reddish brown, his eyes are greeny yellow. He has grown already at 17 weeks much larger than his same litter sister (who is a dilute lilac version patchy brown). 

He also has unusual mannerisms which as a long time cat owner (my previous cat was an Aby male so I'm au fait with eccentric cats). He has a funny gait, his paws flop out in front of him almost frog like sometimes, not extremely, but enough to make me laugh. He's not particularly vocal, neither is his sis, for example they never beg for food or anything, but mews away to himself in a lil high pitch manner if he's trying to figure something out like how to make a high jump or retrieve a lost toy. I have literally never seen a cat do that before he can chat to himself for a long time. They're both extremely fussy eaters for ones so young I'm shocked at their pickiness. He is much larger than his sis, is extremely lean and muscular. He has a cute lil nose which sticks out further than the rest of his face and looks almost like he has an 'overbite' or something it's different than his sister. He has triangular face with large ears but not as much as Siamese. Also, the weirdest thing he does... he EATS things to investigate them!! I have never had a cat who on first investigation of something will eat it. This means he has vomited a few times, so far only containing leaves, grass, plants, spiders, and moths. He also 'wool sucks' and licks anything he's about to settle down on. He is practically obsessive about grooming, he licks me also, and pins his sis down for a long bath including ears, eyes, and backside (which I put down to dominance). They both love climbing and figuring how to get high up on furniture even if it means they come crashing down to the ground - I think that's a Siamese trait? But in sum total this boy is at least eccentric to say the least.

Is it possible he is a genetic glitch & an Havana Brown? If so, do I just carry on like normal and get him neutered or offer him up for stud? I read that it's really rare. I'm not in favour of expensive breeding etc but having had a wonderful Aby for 21 years of his amazing life I can see why it's an amazing thing to keep the traits of a breed.

Sorry for long post. Thanks for your patience in reading and all replies gratefully welcome.

Pic attached.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

He's a moggie, if his mother was a moggie then he is a moggie, a very pretty moggie but a moggie, I doubt you would find anybody reputable wanting to use him as a stud because his isn't a pedigree and has no papers and chances are he will start spraying round your house if you leave him intact and he will try and escape to find a mate (if you keep him indoors) or is liable to roam for miles searching for a female if you let him out and putting him endanger of catching nasty diseases from fighting other entire male tom cats and cars etc. So for his and your well being get him neutered.


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## CrystalCat (Jul 28, 2013)

MontyMaude said:


> He's a moggie, if his mother was a moggie then he is a moggie, a very pretty moggie but a moggie, I doubt you would find anybody reputable wanting to use him as a stud because his isn't a pedigree and has no papers and chances are he will start spraying round your house if you leave him intact and he will try and escape to find a mate (if you keep him indoors) or is liable to roam for miles searching for a female if you let him out and putting him endanger of catching nasty diseases from fighting other entire male tom cats and cars etc. So for his and your well being get him neutered.


Thanks for your reply, I would normally agree but on research I have discovered that Havana Browns (or self colouring browns) are from a mix of seal-point siamese and moggie, so this puts a different slant on it. From what I understand it's a sort of genetic glitch. I am in no way trying to find something 'special' about this cat - if I wanted a pedigree I would have bought one, it's just a curiosity as some sites say there are barely any true browns in the world. The only sure thing about this cat is he's the most incredibly colour brown and I've never seen anything like it.

I honestly know the problems of not neutering (my dad refused to neuter our ginger tom when I was a kid... he grew the size of dog, had tons of fights, and then went feral ... say no more). I already have this boy scheduled for his op. I live in central Lon in an area with tons of cats, not to mention the risk of him getting his poor tiny wee sis impregnated (doesn't bear thinking about). Even if he's truly rare I'll prob do the neuter anyway but even the vets are telling me they've never seen anything like him so it's nagging at me to settle the issue. Also because he has such a strange personality it'd be nice to know from anyone who has Siamese / Havana if these things are traits?


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi there, he is a very pretty boy and a Chocolate Self domestic shorthair but unfortunately not a Havana....any reference you may have found to moggie ancestry in the breed would be relating to decades ago only, same with Tabby Point Siamese for example where new colours were initially introduced at the very start of a breeding programme from an outcross.

GCCF registration policy allows Havanas to be registered from Oriental x Oriental matings and Siamese x Oriental matings only, these are pretty much the only ways you can ever get a Havana! 

The advice given about neutering him is really good advice and I hope you take it, entire boys are not joys to live with and all the risks given are really valid possibilities in fact probablilites, he will be much happier, healthier and safer as a neuter. 

Traits within the breed are pretty much 100% vocal abilities, my Siamese and Orientals talk non stop! They are also very intelligent and people orientated.

I know quite a few, have bred them myself and know there are forum members who have Havanas too. 

Here is a pic of a pedigree Havana girl I bred last year taken just before she left to go to her new home - if you look at the head shape, ears etc and you should see the differences, Havanas should also have bright green eyes, any yellow tone is wrong for the breed.

Hope this helps and he looks and sounds brilliant to have around.


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## CrystalCat (Jul 28, 2013)

Hi Lisa

Thank you so much for the reply. Yep my fellow is much different looking than your pic, his nose is not so long, his ears not so bat like, also his eyes do have a distinct yellow aspect - sometimes it's impossible to say if they're green or yellow in different lights.

Anyhow, I just read a few other sites where people were asking if their cats were Havana Brown and seem hooked on desperately trying to find some financial value or some breed superiority which I realise is not a way to love my cat. I appreciate also that there is no value in breeding a cat that isn't registered whereas people put a heck of a lot of time and effort into breeding pedigrees with good lineage. 

During the same last hour or so, Teddy has (yet again) aggressively romped all over his sis trying to pin her down and bite her neck and has upset her a great deal. I recognise this particular dominance as precursor to mating... So... heh it doesn't matter what he is... I love him very much & his sister equally but despite his tender age he WILL be getting his little furry brown balls lopped off asap trust me! I have a garden and they are both allowed out when I'm at home so I don't want any 'incidents' with other cats. He really is extremely striking looking so that's just a quirk of nature and nothing more.

As for the talking, gosh, they talk to themselves non-stop when they're alone, as if they're thinking out loud. My last cat, an Aby would talk to ME but not himself. They have strangely quiet but high pitched voices which I've not experienced before, they don't really 'meow' so much as garble and squeak to themselves. Strange little things they are. 

Gotta love our furry friends for all their individual personalities! :001_wub:


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

If they have a Siamese father then some of the breed personality traits will have passed down, personally I love cats that chat but they are not for everyone and some visitors to my house ask how I put up with it.....he may also respond well to playing fetch, find Siamese easily suss the game out. I may be mad but I talk to mine non stop to encourage them to talk back more!!!! 

On a downside if the girl has also inherited breed traits from Dad she may come into call shockingly early, Siamese girls can sexually mature at four months but no way be physically or emotionally mature enough to sustain or carry a pregnancy and it could be life threatening for her if this were to happen and the pregnancy was unsuspected until it was too late to do anything about it, if the boy is demonstrating mating behavior with her I would definitely separate them and move the neutering forward to asap the vet will do it....for both of them.

Even after neutering just the boy you would have to keep him separate from her from at least six weeks as fertility can still be there. By having girl done at the same time if possible to do so it removes all risk!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Havana and Havana Brown are 2 very different things.

Havana Browns are very rare outside the US (not that they're common there), not even recognised in many countries and more of a Burmese type, than the Havana which is an Oriental

I'd not let them outside until neutered, if at all. While I don't breed Siamese I have an early maturing breed with girls calling at 14-16 weeks and boys able to mate at the same age.


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## CrystalCat (Jul 28, 2013)

Eeeek don't even say the words! They're going for 2nd round vaccinations this week (ideally should have had younger but I didn't get them til 12 wks from the breeder who was in a state of chaos). They were quite distressed when I got tso I gave them a week or so to just chill out before taking them for 1st vaccinations. As soon as that's been done they can be spayed / neutered earlies vet gives consent she has already agreed an early neuter on Teddy. 

He's so advance compared to his Pebble - at one point weighed twice her weight. I wonder if she is 'runt' of the litter? If there is such a thing? She had a tooth problem (will post in other section) which may have hindered her eating slightly but she's well fed happy healthy & energetic and extremely loving. Just TINY & slender + no match for her dominant bro. NO WAY could she carry a litter her hips r tiny & her body's not formed yet. Wd break my heart. 

My vet said kittens sperm isn't 'fertile' til well over 8 months so I pray we're going to be OK. Pebble so delicate I can't bear the idea of putting her in pain being spayed but it WILL be done asap same time as Teddy. They've never been quite the same since the vet tried to stick thermometers up them :yikes: and seem to have lost faith in us humans poor loves.

I get tons of babyish pawpadding & purry cuddles snuck up on me in the night to remind me their only tiny infants at heart


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My vet said kittens sperm isn't 'fertile' til well over 8 months so I pray we're going to be OK


Your vet's talking out of the wrong orifice! Males can, and have, sired litters much younger. I'd love you to name that vet so they can be reported as they are obviously incompetent and need some extra supervision.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I'd be looking for a new vet. What irresponsible and misinformed advice.


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## CrystalCat (Jul 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> Your vet's talking out of the wrong orifice! Males can, and have, sired litters much younger. I'd love you to name that vet so they can be reported as they are obviously incompetent and need some extra supervision.


Oh no! It was my vet at the Sainsbury Beaumont on Royal College Street, London NW1. She said to bring him 4 neuter at around 6 mths but don't panic abt him getting his lil sis impregnated as before 8-9 mths he'd be firing blanks! I assumed that when very young cats get pregnant it's because of an older male.

Anyway I shall be seeing her this week & we will be having a PROPER conversation!:incazzato:


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

havoc said:


> Your vet's talking out of the wrong orifice! Males can, and have, sired litters much younger. I'd love you to name that vet so they can be reported as they are obviously incompetent and need some extra supervision.


 You have to wonder...my neighbour's vet told him that ginger cats are ALWAYS male. I rest my case!!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I used to own a cat sired by a 6 and a half month old boy.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Siamese, Orientals and their crosses DO mature very early. 

One breeder I knew kept a male kitten from a litter and allowed him to grow up with her females. At 3 months old he mated his mother and grandmother, who both produced litters!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If you are otherwise happy with your vet you might like to look for one near you that does early neutering:

Find an Early Neutering Vet

Unfortunately some vets you find through this page don't actually do it for owned cats, but I suspect you can find one that will neuter him ASAP.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BTW this article describes the develpment of the Havana - a chocolate oriental - and the origins are also Siamese x Russian Blue, and Siamese x white BSH!

http://harislau.co.uk/article2.htm

Pedigree of three of the early havanas
Praha Gypka
Elmtower Bronze Idol
http://www.pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=411632&g=4&p=sia&date=iso&o=ajgrep


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## CrystalCat (Jul 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> If you are otherwise happy with your vet you might like to look for one near you that does early neutering:
> 
> Find an Early Neutering Vet
> 
> Unfortunately some vets you find through this page don't actually do it for owned cats, but I suspect you can find one that will neuter him ASAP.


Thanks so much for the info OS - I went to the vets on Fri (which I should point out is attached to the Royal Veterinary College) and she still said don't neuter him til 6 months. I guess you're right, they're probably busy doing early neuter on all the unwanted kittens born recently. I haven't seen TeddyBB doing any attempted humping (yet).

TeddyBB is growing fast he's already 2.54 kg. His sis (who was the runt) is a wee baby at 1.6 kg and hasn't put on much weight lately - she maybe wouldn't even survive an early pregnancy so there's NO WAY I'm putting her thru any risk.


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