# Crazy Little Kitten... Help please!



## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

I am at my wits end with this kitten... I'm just not sure what to do with her... Another forum member on here advised me to join so maybe I could get some help with her from other knowledgeable cat owners (slaves, more like it lol).

Here's her story... Nora-neko (stray cat in Japanese) or Nora for short is a young female kitten. I'm not sure what her breeding is or really how old she is. Her dam abandoned her very young. I don't believe it was intentional... She DID come back, by that time, it was just too late... My hubby had already caught Nora and we took her in...she was literally starving to death. Her dam was injured while hunting I guess...so took her a long while to get back here...

We've had Nora in the house for several months now. In this time, she's become completely attached to us... however, she is VICIOUS! It was brought to my attention that her dam likely didn't have the time to teach her that biting and clawing are not appropriate for all occasions. She's gotten some better, but, she attacks my 5 year old cat savagely, she claws and bites at my child, husband and myself. Even our year old pit bull is scared of her! LOL But, with another child on the way, I'm fearful for the wee one's safety. I don't want this kitten to attack her when she gets here...

I've tried so many different things that have been advised to me... but nothing seems to help... I've tried the spray bottle, I've tried flicking her when she bites, I've tried the pushing her off the sofa or blatantly ignoring her... None of it seems to help. I thought maybe she was bored, so invested in a bunch of toys... they don't seem to make her happy either.

I will not have an outdoor cat... they end up dead around here... we live close to a busy country road and a couple bars... so, kittens end up smooshed or eaten by coyotes, birds of prey...etc. I won't have that on my conscience. It's not her fault she was born outside... or that her dam wasn't able to provide for her.

I guess I am just looking for some advice on what to do... I had been thinking about finding her a new home... but, I do like her... and my daughter loves her "kittyyyy!" Kitty loves her too... I just don't know what to do.  I will be getting her altered as soon as I can afford it. Another critter was NOT in the plan... but I guess God decided we needed her. I just need her to be a nicer kitty.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Hey guys, I'm the PF member who suggested msella posted  

We had a good chat last night on FB, but I'm no expert at educating un-socialised kittens, and although we obviously have no idea of the birthday of the kitten, going on size Nora was probably no more than 6-8 weeks when they found it at the most. Mum had disappeared for several days, so taking it in was the only option, but that means no kitty social training of course...

So, all help appreciated!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

ok, spaying/altering is a must here. How old is she? Entire cats/kittens can have a very edgey temperament compared to altered ones, so this really is the starting point.

Next, stop with the flicking and the spraying. Matching aggression with aggression is only going to lead to more aggression and teach your kitten to fear you.

Whenever she bites you or claws you, you have a few options.

1. Keep your hand/body part still. By far the hardest choice, but they will soon get bored if the thing they are fighting isn't playing back, and drawing away from a kitten actually triggers its hunting instinct to pounce and bite. I've found with particularly stubborn kittens that pushing your hand towards their mouth when they've bitten actually triggers them to open their mouths wide. Prey animals run away. Equals or predators push closer, so this very gentle technique makes the cat re-evaluate wha tyou are very quickly.

2. A very firm no, dumped off your lap/the sofa or, if not on you, removed from the room and totally ignored. If she jumps back up again, pick her up and put her back on the floor. No speaking, no roughness, just economy of movement, and do it as many times as it takes.
3. Toys. If she has a favourite, keep this to hand at all times, and when you see the signs she's going to attack, tense body, crouching, ears back, wiggling bum, distract her with the toy before she has the chance. Alternatively, throw a ball or similar for her if she attacks you. This will totally divert her attention away from you.
4. A loud noise. When I've socialised kittens (rescues, not my own), who have been really quite insistent on biting long past when they should have stopped, I've emulated mother cat and siblings by emitting a loud, high pitched squeal whenever they bite or claw me. I then withdraw my hand and push the kitten/cat away, totally ignoring them and stopping their game. This is what mum and sibs do if the kitten gets too rough, and it's surprisingly effective.

Don't allow any other family members to tease the kitten with hands, feet or other body parts, and don't allow her unsupervised with any other animals.

As much as you won't want to do it though, I would recommend getting her a playmate. Sounds like she has lots of energy and nobody to burn it off with, and having a rough housing buddy can take a lot of pressure off the humans while teaching the cats good manners at the same time.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Excellent advice from Carly


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok, perhaps I'm generally in a ticked off mood, but it would be nice if advice could be acknowledged.

Grumpypants over and out!


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## tbay007 (Aug 17, 2013)

carly87 said:


> ok, spaying/altering is a must here. How old is she? Entire cats/kittens can have a very edgey temperament compared to altered ones, so this really is the starting point.
> 
> Next, stop with the flicking and the spraying. Matching aggression with aggression is only going to lead to more aggression and teach your kitten to fear you.
> 
> ...


I definitely like this advice. Although, I do have to say, trying to ignore a cat that wants to strike is tough. I would maybe say something like NO, then put her in an isolated room for 15 minutes alone. But I am not sure if the cat is too young for that. That is what I have been working with on our 6 month old kitten who seems to attack my feet, I finally have started using bitter apple spray on my feet. Maybe something else to try for a week or two, cover your handles and feet in it, your cat may decide you do not taste good anymore and find other things to attack such as toys.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Look, kittens are attacking you because they are desperate for another thing to play with. This is why I always strongly advocate homing kittens in pairs. they're not designed to cope easily without a playmate, and putting them in an isolated room isn't teaching them not to play with you. In order to teach restraint, the object of want must be clearly within their grasp, but to be made undesirable. By removing them, what you do is remove their choice, and don't allow them to learn the lesson that you're trying to teach. In fact, you increase their desire for company by doing this, potentially compounding the problem.

It is really hard to ignore a biting cat, you're right, which is why I use the loud noise/push hand towards mouth/push cat away and ignore technique. They don't stop straight away. it takes lots of time, but the key is persistence. If you let them away with it just once because you're fed up of going through the motions, they just keep going and going and going at it. It's really hard, but very worth it in the end.


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Ok, perhaps I'm generally in a ticked off mood, but it would be nice if advice could be acknowledged.
> 
> Grumpypants over and out!


I didn't know anybody had responded... Sorry. I didn't get any notifications until just a few moments ago... We do have another cat, getting a third cat is NOT an option. I can't afford to get her altered at this point either... but, working on saving up for it. She was never supposed to stay long term... Her dam abandoned her, we took her in so she didn't starve to death... the plan was to get her back to health and then find her a new home... nobody wants a demon kitten. She's horrible. And I refuse to lie to someone just to get rid of her.

I appreciate all the advice. But, it's all stuff I've been working with/on with no positive results. My 5 year old kitty growls, hisses and swats at her... kitten doesn't get it... she's too dense to understand what's being "asked" of her. She has toys on sticks with the strings so we can wear her out, but keep our hands from her... she still attacks, claws, bites...etc.

I "hiss" at her every time she does something naughty... she just kinda looks at me like "duhhhhhhh." She's just not real bright. Her biting is getting worse... she's now sinking her teeth in... whereas before, she was just lightly biting... She's getting nastier with my adult cat too. I normally try to keep them on separate levels of our home. There's feed, water and a litter pan on both levels... so, that's not a big deal..

I don't know how old she is. Her eyes are still amber/red like they've been since we brought her in. We've had her since earlier this spring... so, she's a few months old at the least. I can no longer trim her claws either... she won't allow it... I'm not sure how to restrain her, without harming her, to get it done. My adult cat was never an issue... I got her off a farm when she was 8 weeks old... she's been wonderful ever since. And she's half Siamese... lol

We live in an old farm house, so we are starting to get mice in as it's getting ready for winter here... this kitten is a great mouser already... but, she's terrible... she literally rips their guts out... my cat has never even made her prey bleed... she just plays with them til they croak... this kitten dismembers them...

I know if I send her to a shelter, she'll be put down immediately. Our local shelter is well known for it's high kill rate. If I put her back outside, she'll get eaten or squished... And like I said, nobody is interested in her... why would someone want a vicious little animal when there's hundreds of sweet, loving, snuggly kitties out there who actually WANT to be snuggled? I'm just not sure what to do with her... Today, she clawed the heck out of my one year old's arm/hand... just because kitten happened to be laying on the end of the couch and the baby was getting up there to sit with me... I can't have that happen.... especially with another baby on the way.

We're trying... I was ready to give up on her... but, it's not her fault she's a beast... I'm just not sure what else to do at this point. :nonod:


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

Even now... just sitting here, watching the kitties interact... my cat came to sit in my lap... the kitten came charging at her and tried to attack her... my Yume growled at her, swished her tail, pinned her ears... but, the kitten just got in her face... Yume doesn't like to fight, so she backs down, squeals and runs away...Otherwise, Nora sinks her teeth into Yume and won't let go. She truly is like a wild animal... She's just a vicious kitten. I don't understand why she's so mean. 

I've had cats for years... I've always started with crazy farm cats... My grandma used to get strays on her farm allll the time...and even the meanest, nastiest, most feral cats became friendly and fun. I don't know how to break through to this little kitten. 

This is an everyday (several times a day) occurrence around here. Nora literally lies in wait, hiding, and stalking Yume... then attacks her without care. Not just playing... but, like she wants to rip her throat out... Yume has to jump up somewhere little devil cat can't get to yet to be safe. So, needless to say, Yume and I don't get our snuggles anymore... Nora doesn't allow that. She just attacks and chases my girlie away. 

Yume's coat has gotten rough and dull since Nora moved in... She doesn't eat like she used to, she's not as affectionate as she used to be... and she tries to escape anytime someone comes or goes from the house. She just wants to leave. I don't blame her.  

And yes, Yume is current on her vaccinations and worming. Nora has been wormed too. So it's not health issue... It's just stress. Yume has never been partial to kittens though, she usually just ignores them... But, this one is absolutely horrible to her. I wish she would put Nora in her place... but, I don't believe she really knows how to either.


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

I thiiiink maybe we're getting somewhere... it's a win some-lose some kind of thing.... but, I was able to hold her today and love on her for a few minutes before she tried to bite... so, I put her down and ignored her. She then came to curl up on my lap and nap... >.< I guess maybe that's a win? Just as long as I don't try to pet her while she's snuggling. lol


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

Here's a few pics to share... Yume is the one on the suitcase...and Nora is the little one...  See Yume's jealous eyes that Nora is in my lap?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

It looks highly likely that she was a feral kitten - and possibly a singleton, or that her littermates died very young. This would mean that she had no peers with whom to learn bite/claw inhibition, and also that she wasn't sensitised to humans the way a domestic cat would be.

As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong, those of you who know about cats), kittens need to be familiarised with people from the moment their eyes open in order to becomes 'softies' in the home. (In fact, before is better with gentle handling getting them used to the scent and touch of people, too). If this doesn't happen, then the cat, even when domesticated, will be aloof and occasionally aggressive.

I think getting her an age-appropriate playmate is a good idea, but I appreciate that you already have a number of animals, and a child, and with a second baby on the way you may not want to take on the extra work and responsibility. Neutering (if she's not already) may help her to calm down - there could be a cocktail of bubbling hormones making her edgy and frisky.

I hope that some of the suggestions that have been made by others will be helpful to you. She's certainly a very beautiful cat.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Well, the problem is that when you own a cat, you simply can't afford not to get her spayed. I had a territorial girl too was just like this with other cats until spayed. Now she's a sweetie!


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Well, the problem is that when you own a cat, you simply can't afford not to get her spayed. I had a territorial girl too was just like this with other cats until spayed. Now she's a sweetie!


Again, the plan was never to keep her. So having X amount set aside to spay her wasn't in the plan... We never expected to get another cat.... One was quite enough. But, if she doesn't stay, she'll end up dead. And that's not something I want on my conscience. We are working on saving up to get it done... but, it's not cheap. I have to find a different vet, not in our town, to spay her. The veterinarian office here is quite incompetent. They don't know how to even suture properly... let alone remove an animal's breeding parts... I can't afford the $350 USD it will cost there either... That's half the cost of my winter's supply of hay for our horses. The cat's female parts don't compare to their livelihood.

When I can afford to get her altered, I surely will. But, at this point in time... it's not feasible. We've got a doggy who needs his manly bits removed too... but, our female is spayed, so that's not a big deal at this point... It'll probably be January/February before we're able to afford to get them both altered. Hoping we can find a good vet who will give us a good deal for both. They both WILL be altered, it's just a matter of when we can afford it. 

Thank you for your opinions and advice. We'll keep working at it.


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

lostbear said:


> It looks highly likely that she was a feral kitten - and possibly a singleton, or that her littermates died very young. This would mean that she had no peers with whom to learn bite/claw inhibition, and also that she wasn't sensitised to humans the way a domestic cat would be.
> 
> As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong, those of you who know about cats), kittens need to be familiarised with people from the moment their eyes open in order to becomes 'softies' in the home. (In fact, before is better with gentle handling getting them used to the scent and touch of people, too). If this doesn't happen, then the cat, even when domesticated, will be aloof and occasionally aggressive.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure she ate her litter mates... Just sayin. lol She's a vicious little beast. Our neighbors down the way get strays tossed out on their farm all the time... I believe that this little "pride" was probably pitched out there, and they migrated here for hunting purposes. But, I don't really know.

There weren't any other kittens from what I saw... just mama and papa. The others, if there were any, likely starved to death. I fed both parents a couple meals, trying to catch them too, to take them in... but, they ate and left in a hurry. I haven't seen them since... so, they've either gone back to the other farm, gotten killed or migrated away from here completely. Guess I'll never know.

I hate people sometimes... so irresponsible... Because THEY couldn't be bothered to fix their kitties, I've ended up with this crazy kitten... I mean, it's not her fault in the least... nor is it mine... we're doing the best we can with what we've got... I hope I can get her altered soon, so maybe she'll chill out and be a nice kitty.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Just thinking, but could you get her a Supreleron implant from your vet? This will take her hormones out of balance, effectively making her altered in hormonal terms. Not cheap, but not as expensive as the spay, and will tide you over for a year or so while you save.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Two of my cats don't always get on and I make sure they have time apart every day to try and cool it down a bit. If Yume is getting very stressed, you will have other issues too and you need to try and protect/reassure her. If you can separate them, even if it is only to shut a door for an hour then you can still have cuddles with Yume. If you put a routine in place, then Yume will know what is going on, give some sort of cue like taking the kitten food in another room, shutting the door and coming back to feed Yume, and she will only take a few days to pick up on the "quiet time".


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## tbay007 (Aug 17, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Look, kittens are attacking you because they are desperate for another thing to play with. This is why I always strongly advocate homing kittens in pairs. they're not designed to cope easily without a playmate, and putting them in an isolated room isn't teaching them not to play with you. In order to teach restraint, the object of want must be clearly within their grasp, but to be made undesirable. By removing them, what you do is remove their choice, and don't allow them to learn the lesson that you're trying to teach. In fact, you increase their desire for company by doing this, potentially compounding the problem.
> 
> It is really hard to ignore a biting cat, you're right, which is why I use the loud noise/push hand towards mouth/push cat away and ignore technique. They don't stop straight away. it takes lots of time, but the key is persistence. If you let them away with it just once because you're fed up of going through the motions, they just keep going and going and going at it. It's really hard, but very worth it in the end.


By the way Carly. I have started mimicking an angry mother cat, kind of high pitched growl as a warning, and if she continues, I hiss and push our cat away, then walk away, you are right, this appears to be effective. I have been doing this every time our cat goes for my feet. It seems to be working. But only started doing this for one day. Only time will tell if this is very effective.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

msella112 said:


> Again, the plan was never to keep her. So having X amount set aside to spay her wasn't in the plan... We never expected to get another cat.... One was quite enough. But, if she doesn't stay, she'll end up dead. And that's not something I want on my conscience. We are working on saving up to get it done... but, it's not cheap.


There are lots of low cost options in the US, free-$40 seems very commom, especially for strays. Will post a link to clinics that offer low cost services
SpayUSA.org

If you google low cost spay and your town you'll likely come up with other options.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Well, that's really good progress. Well done!


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> There are lots of low cost options in the US, free-$40 seems very commom, especially for strays. Will post a link to clinics that offer low cost services
> SpayUSA.org
> 
> If you google low cost spay and your town you'll likely come up with other options.


Thank you, but, that's something I've already looked into. There's nothing like that around us.  If I had left her outside (to be a "real" feral kitty), and didn't feed her... then I could have had her taken in, spayed and released... but, that really wasn't an option either. I don't believe in outdoor kitties. They end up dead and/or maimed. Especially around here...


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Just thinking, but could you get her a Supreleron implant from your vet? This will take her hormones out of balance, effectively making her altered in hormonal terms. Not cheap, but not as expensive as the spay, and will tide you over for a year or so while you save.


That would cost more in the long run. We don't have a "regular" vet either. The one clinic locally is incompetent. They've been known to "misread" charts and euthanize instead of spay/neuter. They can't even suture properly.... I wouldn't trust them to do anything like that...

I'll get her spayed in a few months when taxes come back, that way I'll be able to afford to take her somewhere reputable.


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

Cutest, sweetest thing ever last evening.... My daughter hasn't been feeling well the last couple days... she was inconsolable last night... the kitten was rubbing all over her trying to get her to be quiet.


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

Well... We've had quite the fun last couple of days... had a red squirrel in the house last evening... Nora caught the thing and wrestled with it awhile...she and Yume both "tag teamed" it... My hubby swooped in for the final killing of the squirrel... Sadly, it's not something that could have been avoided.  Makes me sad... I hate animals dying without need... but, squirrely was a danger to my kitties and my baby... so, it had to go. 

Anyways, Nora was absolutely contented after her wrestling debut with the squirrel. I believe that bout of "violence" pacified her for quite some time. Afterwards, she came and curled up on my chest, just a purring away... took herself a lovely nap. LOL 

Then, this morning, I feared we had another one in the house...something was squeaking dreadfully outside my bedroom door... Well.. Nora had a mouse... but she didn't "have it." She played with it...for a good hour, until I had to intervene... She wasn't going to kill it... she normally does, and rips out their guts... This time, she wanted a play mate I guess. 

I believe Yume is taking on the "mother" or "older sibling" role that I've needed her to take... She had nothing to do with the mouse... she left it to the kitten. I was told awhile later that older cats will allow the younger ones to "take" the prey so they can "learn" what to do with it... She watched them both, but didn't step in. 

I, however, broomstick in hand, stepped in to rid our home of the vermin... I've never killed anything (besides and insect or two) in my entire life... But, I killed the mousey...  Nora wasn't happy... she absconded with it to another room...so I had to chase her and her now floppy friend around the house... trying to get her to drop it... 

She wasn't having any of that. She kept growling at me...so I opened the house door and shewed them both out! Tehe. She finally got rid of the mouse somewhere, I grabbed some canned food and coaxed her to it, after letting her romp around awhile. I "scruffed" her when she got close enough and carried her and her canned food back into the house.  She purred the whole way! I guess she just needs to maim and kill things to be a happy little kitten. 

How horrible is that? LOL I think I had best invest in some more "interactive" toys....


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## msella112 (Sep 1, 2013)

Mouse two in two days... At least this one was dead... LOL Nora wouldn't stop playing catch with it... throwing it, catching it, fetching it, batting it around... But, wouldn't give it up... so, again, shewed her and the mousey out the door... she dropped the mouse and went to explore... I decided to go brush my teethers, and she could come back if she wanted... Sure enough, didn't even get done brushing my teeth and she was at the door meowing to come back in. WITHOUT her mousey. lol

So, both kittens are splitting a can of food! Positive reinforcements I suppose. I think that's why she came back in this morning... that, or the ginormous crow that's out there... it's probably twice the size she is. LOL Didn't want to be bird feed.

I've decided kitten is part dragon... They have the same teethers, the same ears.... Yep. Must be part dragon too.


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