# ART: 'Rein-in the use of choke- & shock-collars'



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pet Talk: Rein in the use of choke/shock collars - USATODAY.com

the *Humane Society of Boulder Valley* in Colorado teamed-up with *Never! Shock a Puppy!* to give a free 
no-pull, pain-free harness - & fit it properly, if the dog came along - to anyone who swapped 
their prong, choke or shock-collars.

the program was very popular; many individual trainers have offered incentives for several years now, 
ranging from a 10 to 15% discount on classes, to a free fitting & a headcollar at cost, for swapping an aversive collar; 
but this is the first large-scale incentive program that i've heard of which involved a major shelter.

i think it was a brilliant idea :thumbup: & i hope it catches on elsewhere.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

It's fantastic!

Yesterday we met an older couple (70s) with a young golden retriever. It was very timid meeting our Biscuit and the man said 'He's such a load' in what I thought was kind of a derogatory tone of voice. His wife looked very apprehensive. And then I noticed their dog was wearing a shock collar and just felt so sorry for it. His wife probably looked that way because she thought her husband was going to give it a jolt and had no say in the matter.

I really hope that one day these things are banned outright, there are better ways to train.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

LFL, What a brilliant idea! :cornut:

Jonesy, how sad for that poor dog.  The trouble is that they will have been recommended to use one of those by one of the many proponents of such devices who don't know (and don't want to know) any other way to train a dog.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> many individual trainers have offered incentives for several years now,
> ranging from a 10 to 15% discount on classes, to a free fitting & a headcollar at cost, for swapping an aversive collar




This just shows me the sheer ignorance of the reporter and an overwhelming distortion of a basic fact:

a head collar is an aversive method of controlling a dog.

So, swap an aversive collar for, um..er, an aversive collar.....at cost price..... blind stupidity. Ah well, they believe they're doing the right thing, unfortunately.

regards,

Austin


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

to remind the Gentle Reader - 
any form of control which limits one's ability to freely act, react, approach, flee, interact only by choice, 
and so on, Can Be an aversive: when we are at home & pick up a leash, dogs come running, as they 
anticipate a walk, a car-trip, a fun training session, etc. 
while *on* a walk & *off* leash, the same leash taken from bandolier-style into one's hands 
may send the same dog off into the underbrush in hope that they can stay off leash a bit longer. 
:huh: _"Now where is that dog?... i'd have sworn i just saw..."_

pups are not born wearing collars or leashes, so early introduction is always best, & gentle habituation should be 
used to let young pups learn about collars - how they feel, people holding the collar to restrain the pup, rewarding 
the pup after touching the collar on recalls, reward the pup after holding or pulling the collar lightly, & so on.

personally i feel those gundog-breeders who have pups WEAR a round fat cord tied on their neck 
with a square-knot & dangling end, are way-ahead of the game: the pups play with one another's hang-tabs, 
chew on them & tug on them all the time, all in good fun, *& these pups learn to GIVE to collar-pressure.* 
since dogs have an innate oppositional reflex, this is a huge advantage: long before they ever wear 
a leash, at 4 to 5-WO, these pups learn to give to pressure & follow a tug or gentle traction without resistance. :thumbup:

just as we introduce collars as young as possible, often in the form of colored ribbon to ID individual pups 
in a litter, without tugging or pulling or restraining an infant-pup by that ribbon, so we should similarly 
introduce other novel management tools like headcollars: associate it with nice things, feed the dog while 
s/he wears the headcollar, then take it off; repeat... then walk the dog wearing the headcollar with the leash 
on the usual collar & take it off when U get back in the car, or get back home. Repeat...

a similar process using a box-muzzle - 
YouTube - ‪Muzzle Training‬‏

the dog is rewarded for targeting the opening first, then for putting their OWN face into the opening. 
the handler only buckles the muzzle on, once the dog is well accustomed to putting it on themselves.

and La Donaldson introducing a Gentle-leader headcollar - 
YouTube - ‪Jean Donaldson gets conditioned emotional response while fitting Gentle Leader‬‏


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> to remind the Gentle Reader -
> any form of control which limits one's ability to freely act, react, approach, flee, interact only by choice,
> and so on, Can Be an aversive: when we are at home & pick up a leash, dogs come running, as they
> anticipate a walk, a car-trip, a fun training session, etc.
> ...


Is this a US thing? I've not heard of it in the UK at all.

As much as I am against shock or prong/pinch collars generally, why are any other types of head collars or harnesses any better? Who's to say if someone has a harness fitted correctly, won't go away and one week later the harness hasn't been adjusted correctly, and it could be detrimental to the development of the pup.

I'm sorry, I don't see this so much as a step forwards, but a step sideways, and one that could hoodwink owners into thinking they're doing the right thing, just because it doesn't involve one of those nasty devices, when in actual fact, it does include a nasty device.

I don't have the answers, but if I did, it wouldn't involve a harness or head collar, at least not for a pup.


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## arlow (Apr 20, 2011)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> So, swap an aversive collar for, um..er, an aversive collar.....at cost price..... blind stupidity.


That sort of "logic" is all too common in The People's Republic of Boulder. Must be something in the water.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> personally i feel those gundog-breeders who have pups WEAR a round fat cord tied on their neck with a square-knot & dangling end, are way-ahead of the game: the pups play with one another's hang-tabs, chew on them & tug on them all the time, all in good fun, *& these pups learn to GIVE to collar-pressure.*


Ok, alarm bells ringing.

What you're advocating is a few week old puppy wearing a choke collar, and other few week old puppy hanging off the other end of it, and then somehow, without any social learning or cognitive reasoning figuring out that it's choking another puppy into submission/near death and letting go is a natural progression? The puppy being strangled somehow learns how a collar works and doesn't freak out and have ongoing issues without any other input? Is it just me or does that sound both hairbrained and stupid?

I'd hate to even pick the R+ bones out of that entirely negative experience and crackpot idea of training, let alone the probability of some horrific outcomes. Maybe this is a very very poor American attempt at sarcasm, because to be completely honest we all know you guys never quite got the hang of it....so c'mon now, is this a joke or do you really agree with this?

This is where the word 'dangerous' is totally more accurate than 'aversive'.

regards,

Austin


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> What you're advocating is a few week old puppy wearing a choke collar, and other few week old puppy
> hanging off the other end of it, and then somehow, without any social learning
> or cognitive reasoning figuring out that it's choking another puppy into submission/near death
> and letting go is a natural progression?


my, my... *hyperbole really becomes U. * that shade of puce in Ur cheeks is so flattering - 
it's really _'you',_ U should wear it more often. :yesnod:

on to the factual stuff:
* where did i mention a *choke collar?*

* it's a fat round cord of set length, removed every 3 to 5 days as the pup grows & re-adjusted to fit.

* it's a substitute for a flat collar & hang-tab - it Does NOT tighten. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> The puppy being strangled somehow learns how a collar works and doesn't freak out
> & have ongoing issues without any other input?


perhaps U would like to ask a breeder of hunting-Labs who uses this with their pups? 
i'm sure they'd love to converse with someone so intrigued by the concept - & they'd love the attitude, too. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Is it just me or does that sound both *hairbrained and stupid*?


*A - * it's HAREbrained - as in the relative of rabbits.

*B - * are those compliments? :ihih: is this what passes for flirting, where U come from? :huh:

if so, no thanks, but it was sweet of U to think of me -- i'll be washing my hair for the next decade 
or so, please don't call - or text, e-mail, send smoke-signals, telegraph, write, Vulcan mind-meld 
or otherwise essay contact.  i won't accept any packages, either - i think it's tawdry to accept gifts 
from someone when U have no intention of developing a relationship.

ethics can really limit a girl, ya know? :nonod: i turned down a multicarat tennis-bracelet, once... 
~sigh...~ it was *so* sparkly!... :001_tt1: but *he* was so... unappealing.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Terry, seriously, your post is the first time I have ever heard of anything like that with gundogs, and I can't see any merit in the idea. The gundog people I know in the UK don't actually put a lead on at all initially, they train the pup to focus on them and get them walking to heel off lead, before introducing a lead later on, and formalising heelwork.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

on this page 
Marley Sporting Dog Supplies

under 'New Pups & Equip U need for them...' 


> *bold added - *
> 
> _A puppy leash and collar is recommended, as soon as your pup comes home. ...color & style
> are personal preference, the only recommendation that we have is... a metal belt-buckle type [vs a] plastic
> ...


obviously, that is for older pups - but it's a variation on the same theme, altho the siblings' role is now 
being played by inanimate objects. ALSO altho the copy does not specify, obviously the pup is supervised 
while dragging anything - just as we would not turn a dog loose with a drag & leave them to go back home, 
we stay nearby & monitor - ready to step in and release the dog if it hangs up, or unkink it if it twists.

reference #2 - _*Field & Stream*_, June 1977 - Column *Gun Dogs*, 
_"*The Chain Gang*" by Bill Tarrant -
When it comes to teaching Pup to 'stay', let [her/his] peers train..._

A - teaching 'Whoa' to bird-dogs - EXCERPT:


> *bold added - *
> 
> _...to start Pup right on 'Whoa', we begin in the litter-box [whelping box] when [s/he] is 3-weeks-old.
> Since nothing bad has yet happened to Pup that's associated with a human being, [s/he] must be placed
> ...


see the PICTURE as a thumbnail: 2 Brittany pups tug each other's check-cords; they're about 9 to 10-WO.

for further references - 
check cords on pups - Google Search

BACK TO THE TOPIC: 
As Tarrant says, we want to be sure we are teaching our dogs what we want them to learn. 
for myself, *i don't want* any dog i handle to associate training with a choke inhibiting their airway, 
a prong poking their neck, or a shock-collar - *no matter how mild the setting - * because IMO 
it taints the training process; i want training to be fascinating, fun, intriguing, exciting, fulfilling & memorable - 
memorable not for the low-points of mistakes & subsequent _'corrections', _ but for the great stuff we learn, 
together - me from the dog, the dog from me, both of us from the training itself.

making training 'memorable' for the ouch-factor is IMO damaging to the process here & now, 
& damages the dog's attitude going forward. Since learning is lifelong, i want the dog to want to learn - 
not just today, but every day. :thumbup1: i want to see eager smiles & bright eyes, every time 
we start a lesson, take a walk, hitch a sled, open a pasture gate, whatever it might be.

Edit: 
forgot to add, most modern-day breeders / trainers with a litter make the whelping-box check-cords 
only long-enuf for Pup to tread on slightly with their own forefeet & trip a bit, not 2-feet long; 
depending on breed, 8 to 14-inches of tab-length is plenty, possibly a bit more for leggy breeds. 
i've seen black-&-white photos from the 1940s with pups wearing hang-tabs 12 to 18-inches long, too. 
this idea is not *new*, i just think it makes sense to teach 'give to collar-pressure' early.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm thinking this is definitely a US way of training Terry, I just haven't heard of it, and the 'whoa' to birds is 'steadiness' over in the UK. That's taught as a sit to heel off lead and then on and off lead, and then distance is built up while the dog is taught not to run in for inanimate objects, and eventually cold and live game. 

I really do agree with the sentiments behind what you're saying, and the article you've posted, but, there are just too many messed up dogs in rescue organisations that people cannot control. As much as I know it won't be popular, but (since when did I post to make friends and influence people) unfortunately, a halti or harness won't give the vast majority of average dog owners/handlers the control and confidence they need with a dog with issues, particularly with big powerful breeds and cross breeds. The answer is, of course, no dog should ever be messed up because we should all learn to handle dogs correctly, but I doubt I'll live to see that day


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> As much as I know it won't be popular, but (since when did I post to make friends and influence people) unfortunately, a halti or harness won't give the vast majority of average dog owners/handlers the control and confidence they need with a dog with issues, particularly with big powerful breeds and cross breeds.


Problem is, as I see it, very few products will...

Virtually every dog I see out and about wearing a choke chain or similar is pulling, lunging, etc. Even smaller dogs continue to drag their owners around on them.

Headcollars at least do tend to work as a management tool in many dogs, giving control, even if the owner never bothers to train in order to negate the need for one.

Must admit I'm quite fascinated by the idea of putting a line on pups to get them used to the idea - not something I've ever heard of before but I think it has some potential.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Colette said:


> Problem is, as I see it, very few products will...
> 
> Virtually every dog I see out and about wearing a choke chain or similar is pulling, lunging, etc. Even smaller dogs continue to drag their owners around on them.
> 
> ...


No, there's not much that will magically train any dog, but unfortunately a lot of people don't want to put in the effort, they prefer a quick fix.

I'm the opposite of you with the collar idea, I just can't see any use for it, but then there are so many different ways to train dogs, maybe it could work well for *something* but I'm not sure where I would see a use for it with the way I've been taught to train dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...unfortunately, a halti or harness won't give the vast majority of average dog owners/handlers
> the control & confidence they need with a dog with issues, particularly with big powerful breeds & cross-breeds.


um - i've had children handle big-dogs 'with issues' - Pulling, not aggro! - successfully, using a *front-clip* 
harness or a headcollar, depending on both the child & dog re their relative sizes & strengths as to which.

IOW, the bigger the gap between strength & co-ordination of the dog re that of the handler, the more likely i am 
to choose the headcollar for the handler's eventual use, & the front-clip harness only as an intermediate stage, 
during the habituation to wearing a facial strap - about a week of steps from start to happy use of the headcollar.

i've also worked with elderly & disabled persons or kids with mobility or co-ordination issues - for them also, 
*front-clip* harnesses [or headcollars for massive dogs or tiny persons, etc] worked beautifully.

i have had a wheelchair-using handler working with their own dog on a front-clip harness in 20-mins flat, 
i spend 15-mins with the dog wearing & using the harness while they watch [after properly fitting it, of course], 
and then they get the leash while i double-handle with a 2nd-leash on the dg's collar, just in case.

SO FAR - i have yet to see a wheelchair-using client, or indeed any wheelchair-using handler, dragged 
out of their chair by a dog on a front-clip harness or a headcollar, while i have seen such handlers dragged 
to the ground by dogs wearing choke-, prong- & shock-collars.

so IMO & IME, the safety-factor is hugely increased by a *front-clip* harness or a headcollar, whether we're 
talking little old lady/little old man, child, disabled person, poor grip strength due to arthritis or neural problems... 
whatever the issue may be, i've had 200# dogs being handled by 5-ft tall women or 4-ft tall kids, successfully.

i've also had dogs being handled by APOs who had *serious behavior issues* - aggro, predatory, 
past bite-history, etc - on a *front-clip* harness or headcollar - again, depending on size/strength 
& the issue to determine which we use. SO FAR - no one reported their dog got away, pulled them down, 
chased [a person, cat, deer...], lunged & pulled the leash from their hands, or any other disasters.

given that i've done B-mod since 1985 & worked with bite-history dogs since 1990, & trained dogs for a decade 
before beginning B-mod work... i feel quite confident in the safety of headcollars &/or *front-clip* harnesses.

it's the eejits who clip a Flexi on a headcollar who make me froth at the mouth. :incazzato: 
pointless, stoopid & cruel to the dog - the constant drag of a spring-loaded lead on the dog! :cursing: 
or the damfools who cannot bother to fit the harness properly, or buy one that has BOTH buckles in the poor dog's 
tender armpits, & wonder why Fido / Fifi won't walk :crazy: - or ignore the dog's growing body or skull, 
& don't adjust the gear or replace it to fit properly. :thumbdown:

we trainers can do a lot to educate pet-owners of many species, but sometimes humans are impossible 
to train; common sense would dictate that from puppy to dog, we need to adjust sizes to comfort & safety, 
and some gear [Flexis] does not go with other gear [headcollars!] - but common-sense is rare, i find. :nonod:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Terry, with all due respect, I wouldn't expect an adult, let alone a child handle some of the dogs I've seen, they'd most likely be eaten I'm not talking about dogs that pull, I'm talking about dogs that haven't been socialised, and have been messed up enough to want to kill or be killed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Terry, with all due respect, *I wouldn't expect an adult*, let alone a child [*to*] *handle some of the dogs
> I've seen, they'd most likely be eaten*[.] I'm not talking about dogs that pull, I'm talking about dogs
> that haven't been socialised, & have been messed up enough to want to kill or be killed.


yes? is that enuf exaggeration for ya? :huh: are we done conjuring Cujo? wanna make her/him rabid, 
too? how about 3-inch long fangs? acid saliva? skin-eating bacteria? dragon-fire a yard long? 
retractable claws in each toe - tipped with neurotoxins? episodic rage-syndrome?... Anything else?

as i said, _*I have worked with dogs who had past bite-histories, 
some with past predatory [killing: cats, small dogs, other pets, livestock, etc], 
some with serious human-bites. 
i don't expect or allow CHILDREN to handle those dogs. *_ :thumbdown:

_*a muzzle for dogs who've bitten is a simple precaution. 
it can even be pre-conditioned to be a happy thing. E-Z. 
And safe. The front-clip harness or headcollar is for control; 
the pre-conditioned muzzle is insurance.*_


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

My feeling about the line on pup idea is that it should work along the same lines as the "drunken walk" method of teaching loose lead walking, as well as being habituation to th sensation of being leashed.

In reverse order, I think pups getting used to wearing a collar / lead while still in the breeders care is a very good idea, as it means one less thing for a new owner to worry about. We've been lucky that the pups we've had didn't have any problem having a collar on (although Solo took a little while to get used to having a lead attached) but I've known people who really struggled to get their pup wearing a collar (panicking, trying to get it off, refusing to move whilst wearing it etc). This groundwork could easily be done by the breeder prior to sale.

I've used the drunken walk method myself and had quick success with it - the dog soon realises that it has no option but to follow the lead; it doesn't know where it's going so it has to pay attention to the lead (and whoever is on the other end of it) and learns to give to the pressure rather than fighting against it. 
By putting a line on a pup the other pups and inanimate objects seem to be doing the same job as the drunken walk type handler - the first few times the pup will get pulled up short, but will learn to pay more attention and move with the line. Hence, the groundwork will already have been done and the pup will go to its new home already knowing how to go with the lead rather than against it.

I certainly don't think it would be a magic cure to prevent all pulling, but I think it would lay a solid foundation and make things easier / quicker for a new owner - especially an inexperienced one.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> This just shows me the sheer ignorance of the reporter and an overwhelming distortion of a basic fact


Actually it shows you distorting posts by selective quoting. As for who finds it unfortunate that aversive collars are getting binned and owners having access to gentler polite walking techniques, *it sure ain't the dogs!*


leashedForLife said:


> Pet Talk: Rein in the use of choke/shock collars - USATODAY.com
> 
> the *Humane Society of Boulder Valley* in Colorado teamed-up with *Never! Shock a Puppy!* to give a free
> no-pull, pain-free harness - & fit it properly, if the dog came along - to anyone who swapped their prong, choke or shock-collars.


Looking at the orginal article it is even clearer, *offering a free no-pull harness (a SENSE-ation, which retails from $23.50 to $28.50) to folks who exchange aversive collars for the harness*


> And that way of thinking is gathering big-time steam. So devoted is the Humane Society of Boulder Valley (HSBV) in Colorado to the idea of eliminating choke, prong and shock collars from its community that it's offering a free no-pull harness (a SENSE-ation, which retails from $23.50 to $28.50) to folks who exchange aversive collars for the harness.


Harness!! The things that ppl fit without any habituation and that are generally loved by the dogs, because of the comfort! Puppies take longer to get used to their collars, than the dogs I've fitted with good harnesses for safe walking and with top clip for use with long line.

The other follow on posts also seemed to have little relation to what was written, which was fairly amusing and not much of a surprise, given the previous diversions onto head collar topic (done at length in http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/150472-self-correction-collar.html).


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Colette said:


> the dog soon realises that it has no option but to follow the lead; it doesn't know where it's going so it has to pay attention to the lead (and whoever is on the other end of it) and learns to give to the pressure rather than fighting against it


A little patience, and being able to ignore the dog seems to go an awful long way in practice (if you won't let them go back, going somewhat forwards happens soon enough).


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> the *Humane Society of Boulder Valley* in Colorado teamed-up with *Never! Shock a Puppy!* to give a free
> no-pull, pain-free harness - & fit it properly, if the dog came along - to anyone who swapped their prong, choke or shock-collars


The great thing about these harnesses, is they are comfy enough to use on a dog that generally walks LLW & heel well as a prophylactic measure. Every single dog I've walked (and others who've used them for years) has been keenly volunteering when it's time to put it on (before going out).

Recently, our dog went to Dog boarding & Pro walker, with a harness and double ended leads permitting umbilical attachment (she used the top clip only and said "He is a dream to walk!", which meant he was out 3 times some days as he was no hassle).

Afterwards, I do not have those nagging worries about his LLW or heeling, being corrupted by somone with less focus on anti-pull technique or training heeling, especially when a race was likely with other dogs.

Anyone still using slip leads, choke chains, prongs or even flat collar, expecting "correction" cannot have the same peace of mind.

Always, technical solutions should be backed with a little training, though the Flatcoat Retriever owner I met, who's dog sported a rather grubby and long used Halti anti-pull harness, seemed to be very happy & enthusiastic with the long term use despite not having bothered at all to teach walking at heel or side. The person with a well trained guide dog (another Flattie) OTOH with flat collar and trad lead, was faced with a vigorous and lively dog that was keen to play (but not allowed due to fears) in very un-guide dog like way, straining up and forward on lead. Surely a case where a temporary safe walking system would work well for a working dog on holiday and thus acting off duty without it's guidedog harness.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> yes? is that enuf exaggeration for ya? :huh: are we done conjuring Cujo? wanna make her/him rabid,
> too? how about 3-inch long fangs? acid saliva? skin-eating bacteria? dragon-fire a yard long?
> retractable claws in each toe - tipped with neurotoxins? episodic rage-syndrome?... Anything else?
> 
> ...


Please, we invented sarcasm, and excel at it. My post was in all seriousness, but obviously you can't come up with a serious response, your problem, not mine. And now I expect a ten page diatribe without punctuation and virtually full of acronyms that I'll take one look at and just cannot be bothered. Some make the effort to respond politely, others don't. Personally, I don't care, but the discussion perhaps would have been useful for anyone else reading.



Colette said:


> My feeling about the line on pup idea is that it should work along the same lines as the "drunken walk" method of teaching loose lead walking, as well as being habituation to th sensation of being leashed.
> 
> In reverse order, I think pups getting used to wearing a collar / lead while still in the breeders care is a very good idea, as it means one less thing for a new owner to worry about. We've been lucky that the pups we've had didn't have any problem having a collar on (although Solo took a little while to get used to having a lead attached) but I've known people who really struggled to get their pup wearing a collar (panicking, trying to get it off, refusing to move whilst wearing it etc). This groundwork could easily be done by the breeder prior to sale.
> 
> ...


I can see that being useful in some circumstances, but the way I've seen pups trained it just seems to be another method, and can't see people using it to replace an already successful method, hope that makes sense?



RobD-BCactive said:


> The great thing about these harnesses, is they are comfy enough to use on a dog that generally walks LLW & heel well as a prophylactic measure. Every single dog I've walked (and others who've used them for years) has been keenly volunteering when it's time to put it on (before going out).
> 
> Recently, our dog went to Dog boarding & Pro walker, with a harness and double ended leads permitting umbilical attachment (she used the top clip only and said "He is a dream to walk!", which meant he was out 3 times some days as he was no hassle).
> 
> ...


Sorry Rob, can't agree with you, because all the focus is put on the control device. Far too much focus is on training devices, for me, the focus should be on training the person in control of the dog, the bit in bold really highlights this for me, personally, I feel the emphasis is the wrong way round


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> because all the focus is put on the control device. Far too much focus is on training devices, for me, the focus should be on training the person in control of the dog


Saying how it "should be" doesn't work well in practice, real owners have to deal with what they have right now, possibly an unsafe situation not how it "ought to be". I don't think much training is needed to get a dog doing basic LLW or starting heeling, it's very simple in principal, but the owner needs to put it into practice. Most family dogs are multi-handler anyway and they have internal friction and differences, so training one person up, is of limited effectiveness.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Saying how it "should be" doesn't work well in practice, real owners have to deal with what they have right now, possibly an unsafe situation not how it "ought to be". I don't think much training is needed to get a dog doing basic LLW or starting heeling, it's very simple in principal, but the owner needs to put it into practice. Most family dogs are multi-handler anyway and they have internal friction and differences, so training one person up, is of limited effectiveness.


Have to disagree again , training one person can be extremely effective, as they can then pass on that knowledge. I get your point about unsafe situations, and as much as I hate head collars, I do see their use for example for someone has a large dog they couldn't hope to stop from pulling them over on a normal collar and lead, where the owner/handler hasn't got the necessary skill to train their dog not to pull at all. Heel work is a major bug bear of mine, it was something I hated when I first got dogs, and you could tell. But having a dog that walks nicely to heel at command, transfers to other people just as well, my nephew can walk Indie, because her heelwork is pretty good, and she doesn't (generally) pull on the lead. I have since grown to quite like heelwork now, and enjoy making it part of our training sessions, but the largest mistake people make by far, is get a pup and walk it where there are far too many distractions to train it anything, and then wonder two or three months down the line why their young dog doesn't walk to heel for half a pound of cheddar, when actually, they've unwittingly spent a few months training their pup to ignore everything they say and do as it likes.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Please, we invented sarcasm, and excel at it. My post was in all seriousness,
> but obviously you can't come up with a serious response, your problem, not mine.


that was serious - i take safety very seriously. 


Sleeping_Lion said:


> And now I expect a ten page diatribe without punctuation and virtually full of acronyms
> that I'll take one look at and just cannot be bothered.


Sorry to disappoint U. :001_smile: 


Sleeping_Lion said:


> Some make the effort to respond politely, others don't. Personally, I don't care, but the discussion perhaps would have been useful for anyone else reading.


 * i was polite.

* it seems that was the discussion.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> *yes? is that enuf exaggeration for ya? :huh: are we done conjuring Cujo? wanna make her/him rabid,
> too? how about 3-inch long fangs? acid saliva? skin-eating bacteria? dragon-fire a yard long?
> retractable claws in each toe - tipped with neurotoxins? episodic rage-syndrome?... Anything else? *
> 
> ...


Your interpretation of serious is obviously different to mine. The point I made was that there are dogs with issues that are serious enough, that your average dog owner, won't be able to to control them with the use of a headcollar or harness (with or without a muzzle on), let alone a child, and your response (above) appears to be sarcastic. I've said it before when other threads have come up to discuss pinch collars in particular, there but for the Grace of God; if someone takes on a big dog that is a serious puller, and of uncertain temperament, if they find a pinch collar works to help keep that dog under their control, I'm the last one that's going to criticise them for it. It would be nicer if no dog needed any of these gadgets, but there simply aren't enough experienced dog handlers/owners for the vast amount of messed up rescue dogs. And no, we shouldn't be putting these things on puppies, but then I don't believe we should be putting head collars or harnesses on puppies either.



leashedForLife said:


> that was serious - i take safety very seriously.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint U. :001_smile:
> 
> ...


Yours, pleasantly disappointed


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Have to disagree again , training one person can be extremely effective, as they can then pass on that knowledge. *I get your point about unsafe situations, and as much as I hate head collars, I do see their use for example for someone has a large dog they couldn't hope to stop from pulling them over on a normal collar and lead, where the owner/handler hasn't got the necessary skill to train their dog not to pull at all. * Heel work is a major bug bear of mine, it was something I hated when I first got dogs, and you could tell. But having a dog that walks nicely to heel at command, transfers to other people just as well, my nephew can walk Indie, because her heelwork is pretty good, and she doesn't (generally) pull on the lead. I have since grown to quite like heelwork now, and enjoy making it part of our training sessions, but the largest mistake people make by far, is get a pup and walk it where there are far too many distractions to train it anything, and then wonder two or three months down the line why their young dog doesn't walk to heel for half a pound of cheddar, when actually, they've unwittingly spent a few months training their pup to ignore everything they say and do as it likes.


Sorry, I really must take issue with the sentence I have highlighted. Whilst it is always preferable to teach a dog to walk nicely than it is to shove a headcollar on him, it is not always down to skill. Neither of my dogs pull, but Ferdie wears a headcollar clipped to one end of a double ended lead, for back up. He is a lot heavier and stronger than I am and he is intensely interested in other dogs or any people that speak to him. Without the headcollar, he would drag me off across roads to get to them, whilst without any distractions he walks next to me. I feel confident when he is wearing a headcollar on the streets, I would not feel confident without it, but it is only in play when necessary.

My other dog, though interested in the other dogs, is not as strong nor as stubborn so he does not need a headcollar as well.

I think it is a shame when I see a headcollar on a puppy, because it is obvious than no one is going to bother teaching them to walk properly when they have this wonderful gadget to do it for them. That is a different matter.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Sorry, I really must take issue with the sentence I have highlighted. Whilst it is always preferable to teach a dog to walk nicely than it is to shove a headcollar on him, it is not always down to skill. Neither of my dogs pull, but Ferdie wears a headcollar clipped to one end of a double ended lead, for back up. He is a lot heavier and stronger than I am and he is intensely interested in other dogs or any people that speak to him. Without the headcollar, he would drag me off across roads to get to them, whilst without any distractions he walks next to me. I feel confident when he is wearing a headcollar on the streets, I would not feel confident without it, but it is only in play when necessary.
> 
> My other dog, though interested in the other dogs, is not as strong nor as stubborn so he does not need a headcollar as well.
> 
> I think it is a shame when I see a headcollar on a puppy, because it is obvious than no one is going to bother teaching them to walk properly when they have this wonderful gadget to do it for them. That is a different matter.


Ok, I'm confused  if your dog doesn't pull, how can he drag you across the road? My dogs don't pull, generally, but they will on occasion pull towards someone or something exciting, and I can control them on a slip lead. My OH's dogs on the other hand don't pull at all, he has much better skills at dog handling than I do, and it shows.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, I'm confused  if your dog doesn't pull, how can he drag you across the road? My dogs don't pull, generally, but they will on occasion pull towards someone or something exciting, and I can control them on a slip lead. My OH's dogs on the other hand don't pull at all, he has much better skills at dog handling than I do, and it shows.


That is what I mean. On general walks, he never pulls, just walks along next to me if there is room or slightly ahead if there isn't. He will pull if someone talks to him from across the road and I would have no hope of stopping him without the headcollar for back up.

Joshua never pulls at all, whether someone is talking to him or not. In fact, he tends to plod along behind.

When you talk about pulling, I assume you mean dogs that pull the whole time they are walking.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...I don't believe we should be putting head collars or harnesses on puppies either.


many kinds of training use - wittingly or not - TOOLS as the dog's cue to which set of behaviors s/he is expected 
to perform; a tracking-harness for a trailing or SAR-dog, a bell on a hunting-dog's collar, a headcollar or harness 
for an assistance-dog or guide-dog are all such clues: we present the gear, the dog knows s/he is on duty 
or off-duty, will be hunting or walking, trailing or searching, etc.

many assistance-dogs who will wear headcollars as working-adults begin with one as their CUE 
that they're going out in public to train, & a certain set of behaviors is off the list of acceptable: 
barking, lunging to sniff or meet, grabbing objects with their mouths without a cue, & so on. 
i see absolutely nothing wrong with that - nor with putting a harness on a future sled-dog months 
or even years before s/he can be expected to work in harness, in earnest.

IMO early introduction & happy habituation to any tool is preferable to slapping it on & expecting 
perfect compliance and instant acceptance; the sooner any gear is introduced & happily associated, 
the better... just as i would introduce a city-dwelling dog to elevators in puphood, & a country-dwelling dog 
to livestock as early as possible, even if _ *I* _ as the pup's owner, did not live with elevators or livestock.

an ounce of preparation is worth a 16-fold pound of compensation.  IMO & IME, of course.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Have to disagree again , training one person can be extremely effective, as they can then pass on that knowledge


That can happen, but unfortunately tends not to, part of the role of consulting an expert, is that person is an outsider, not a family member. Family relationships can be complex and a mess of conflicting interests and needs.

One "delegate" who researches and obtains expert advice, is easily dismissed by the wilfully ignorant, thanks to motivated reasoning, where someone else has "their opinion" and feels it's equally valid to "the trainee's opinion".

Even in commercial organisations, where there ought to be less close emotional involvement, outsiders are consulted (often who are less expert than in-house) because of their perceived independance from internal issues.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Even in commercial organisations, where there ought to be less close emotional involvement,
> outsiders are consulted (often who are less expert than in-house) because of their perceived independence
> from internal issues.


*consultant*: _n, kun-sul-tent;_ an advisor whom we hire for a stiff fee, who borrows 
a watch, tells us the time, & departs - keeping the watch, & the fee.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> your average dog owner, won't be able to to control them with the use of a headcollar or harness (with or without a muzzle on), let alone a child, and your response (above) appears to be sarcastic


Really that is unfair. Firstly the time when a pinch type collar was employed and thoughts were asked on forum, it appeared inappropriate for reasons discussed at time.

The "would be eaten by the dog" was hyperbole, how can a pinch collar control the *ravenous bug blatter beastie-doggie of Traal*, when such collars in hand of a Master like Cesar Milan, have resulted in multiple bites and a sleeve torn to shreds. All because he pushed a dog fearful of dogs over threshold. [ For disbelievers, it's the maroon sweater still in title clip, with the siberian type dog held high in air from Cesar's outstretched hand ]

A genuinely irrationally unpredictably aggressive dog may have a health issue, which is why those who answer questions on the forum routinely suggest a Vet's Health check, and you can see that on Victoria Stillwell's show (for example Thyroid levels).

What is more likely to happen in most cases, is that tools which inflict pain, on an already fearful dog, compound the issues and intensify the reactions; putting the owners into a conflict situation with such dogs is irresponsible.

On a more positive note, I enjoyed this thread from someone who has had issues to fix and tried a harness - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/170000-finally-he-stopped-pulling.html#post2537106


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> That is what I mean. On general walks, he never pulls, just walks along next to me if there is room or slightly ahead if there isn't. He will pull if someone talks to him from across the road and I would have no hope of stopping him without the headcollar for back up.
> 
> Joshua never pulls at all, whether someone is talking to him or not. In fact, he tends to plod along behind.
> 
> When you talk about pulling, I assume you mean dogs that pull the whole time they are walking.


No, I mean a dog that will pull you over in a given situation, and mine are included in that, they have very good heelwork in comparison to the average pet owned dog, but they would pull me over given half a chance in the right situation. Pass the lead to my OH, and they wouldn't.



leashedForLife said:


> many kinds of training use - wittingly or not - TOOLS as the dog's cue to which set of behaviors s/he is expected
> to perform; a tracking-harness for a trailing or SAR-dog, a bell on a hunting-dog's collar, a headcollar or harness
> for an assistance-dog or guide-dog are all such clues: we present the gear, the dog knows s/he is on duty
> or off-duty, will be hunting or walking, trailing or searching, etc.
> ...


Training without the need of any 'tool' is preferrable, my pet hate is seeing pups with head collars on, especially the sort that go around the muzzle, when young dogs are possibly still teething.



RobD-BCactive said:


> That can happen, but unfortunately tends not to, part of the role of consulting an expert, is that person is an outsider, not a family member. Family relationships can be complex and a mess of conflicting interests and needs.
> 
> One "delegate" who researches and obtains expert advice, is easily dismissed by the wilfully ignorant, thanks to motivated reasoning, where someone else has "their opinion" and feels it's equally valid to "the trainee's opinion".
> 
> Even in commercial organisations, where there ought to be less close emotional involvement, outsiders are consulted (often who are less expert than in-house) because of their perceived independance from internal issues.


That *does* happen in my experience, a notion shared helps educate. Or we can just rely on buying gadgets and hoping people use them correctly. Of course all these gadgets require correct use, personally, I'd prefer to see the time spent showing people how to train their dogs, rather than use a gadget to control their dogs, but that's just me.



leashedForLife said:


> *consultant*: _n, kun-sul-tent;_ an advisor whom we hire for a stiff fee, who borrows
> a watch, tells us the time, & departs - keeping the watch, & the fee.


Why thank you, so you charge lots of money for borrowed time?



RobD-BCactive said:


> Really that is unfair. Firstly the time when a pinch type collar was employed and thoughts were asked on forum, it appeared inappropriate for reasons discussed at time.
> 
> The "would be eaten by the dog" was hyperbole, how can a pinch collar control the *ravenous bug blatter beastie-doggie of Traal*, when such collars in hand of a Master like Cesar Milan, have resulted in multiple bites and a sleeve torn to shreds. All because he pushed a dog fearful of dogs over threshold. [ For disbelievers, it's the maroon sweater still in title clip, with the siberian type dog held high in air from Cesar's outstretched hand ]
> 
> ...


Not had time to look at the harness thread, and I'm just about to go and get the girls out, but I've seen pinch collars used with a number of dogs, whose owners still retain both arms and their clothes haven't been torn to shreds. No device is necessary for a pup, that's my point, but for dogs that some one else has messed up, if you rescue them, and you find a pinch collar works to keep the dog from pulling you over where's the problem? Any item of dog training gadgetry can be abused and misused, pinch collars aren't nice, but then neither are some head collars, I've seen dogs with faces disfigured because of ill fitting haltis.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...I've seen dogs with faces disfigured because of ill fitting haltis.


any photos of that? Even One? :huh: funny; in 20-years, i have never seen one.

meantime, i've seen dozens of young-dogs with ingrown buckle-collars from puphood personally, 
& hundreds of such photos in cruelty investigations & surgical notes. Do U recommend dogs be collarless? 
i don't - i recommend collars on ALL dogs, & that they fit properly on EACH dog - or puppy.

i can find *hundreds * of on-line photos, i am sure, of horses or foals with facial deformities 
due to some solid sterling-silver, gold-plated, royal-standard _*&%$#@!_ being too bloody lazy 
to adjust a halter or buy one of the correct size; *i took one off a head-shy colt at an auction once, 
which was TIED in a knot for weeks or months after a tongue-hole had worn thru; not only was it 
too small, & worn and filthy to boot, but the sharp square-edge of the cheap buckle had dug a shallow hole 
in his head, behind his ear; :incazzato: i bought him a properly-fitting smooth leather one that buckled 
well-away from the wound. it took 20-mins to find & buy one the right size, & 45-mins to get it on him - 
because he was so frightened of possible pain. * getting the filthy ratty one off was the hardest, tho; 
i had to saw thru the doubled-nylon with a pocket-knife.

believe me, whoever did that to that young animal was cursed for life by the time i was done. 
however, i Don't think everyone who halters a horse or foal is an ignorant lazy cruel *%#@*!*

*EDIT: 
i would remind the Forum at large 
that personal remarks are not acceptable - 
& also that the BVHS distributed harnesses, tho from Sleeping Lion's posts 
one would tend to forget this.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> any photos of that? Even One? :huh: funny; in 20-years, i have never seen one.
> 
> meantime, i've seen dozens of young-dogs with ingrown buckle-collars from puphood personally,
> & hundreds of such photos in cruelty investigations & surgical notes. Do U recommend dogs be collarless?
> ...


So obviously because I haven't got a photograph I'm lying.

I don't recommend dogs be collarless, I don't recommend much at all, and I also try not to make sweeping generalisations or try and belittle other forum members, but do try and stick to the facts as I know them. I advocate research rather than listening to the advice of one person, but then I like to question things.

I'd like to make sense of your last paragraph, but I'm struggling.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

trainingaidsetc

notice yellow Lab POGO modeling her smart blue Sense-ation harness on the top right of this page - 
she looks very downtrodden, and obviously hates it with a passion. 

notice where the BELT on the person comes to re the dog's size - he's a Dane-mix. 
Also note the nice loose lead when he walks - gee, he must be really putting pressure 
on that harness... or it's putting pressure on him, right?  no way he'd just *walk* like that!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Any item of dog training gadgetry can be abused and misused, pinch collars aren't nice, but then neither are some head collars, I've seen dogs with faces disfigured because of ill fitting haltis.


I had a dog in one of my classes who had nerve damage due to being abused with a choke chain by his previous owner. One side of his face completely drooped and he could stand nothing around his neck.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

leashedForLife said:


> trainingaidsetc
> 
> notice yellow Lab POGO modeling her smart blue Sense-ation harness on the top right of this page -
> she looks very downtrodden, and obviously hates it with a passion.
> ...


So is this Dane cross aggressive with other dogs or people ? I don't like the heel position it is in, I am however not familiar with the harness being used, what happens if the dog does go to lunge forward, I mean the mechanics of it how does the harness work and prevent the lunge ?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i took [an ingrown halter] off a head-shy colt at an auction once,
> which was TIED in a knot for weeks or months after a tongue-hole had worn thru; not only was it
> too small, & worn and filthy to boot, but the sharp square-edge of the cheap buckle had dug a shallow hole
> in his head, behind his ear; :incazzato: i bought him a properly-fitting smooth leather one that buckled
> ...


lest anyone have any misleading ideas, the colt was in a 12 x 12 pen, alone, waiting to enter the auction ring; 
as it was an Amish area auction, there were 3 different harness makers on site selling everything imaginable, 
from cruppers to blinkers & sheepskin head-rolls.

i got the new halter on round his neck by dint of quiet constant persistence, which took up 45-mins; 
then asked a young woman to help me with the removal part, & she held the new-halter below his chin 
while i sawed off the filthy old-one, with my hand between the colt's head & the dam*ed buckle, 
& the blade's edge facing UP, so that he could not be cut if he jerked either the new-halter or the old-one.

then i gave him a half-hour to rest & realize it didn't hurt anymore, & went back with a heel of multigrain 
bread, to get him to relax & stand for approach before the wranglers came to hustle him into & out 
of the ring; they're in a hurry, always, & there's no time wasted on delicacy or consideration 
of a frightened youngster.

back to dogs - *ingrown collars:*
getting an ingrown collar off a young dog can be a real struggle, & can be as simple as cutting it, 
or even unbuckling it or slipping it over the dog's head - or might require general anaesthesia 
& a vet-surgeon's help. Thankfully, most of those i've personally seen have been the former, 
not the latter - but when it in doubt, REMOVE the leash or chain or ___ , immobilize the ingrown collar 
& *cover it to keep insects from the wound*, then seek a vet ASAP.

a leash bandolier-style across the chest and under one leg / over one shoulder, will safely hold the dog 
without causing more pain to their injured neck. The leash should be w-i-d-e & have smooth edges, 
so as not to cut the tender armpits, where the skin is thin. Since the WRIST-LOOP is used to secure 
the leash around the dog's torso, a second leash clipped onto the bare clip at the free end 
is a good precaution, in case the dog tries to bolt; U have a wrist-loop on the second leash, put it 
over Ur hand & hold the leash *in front of* the wrist loop, thumb-up & whole hand gripping. 
the slack of the leash is folded into the off-hand.

U will be walking on the dog's side which has the leash going under the leg, & if extra restraint is needed, 
a loose loop around the dog's loin can be made with that second leash: slip the leash around the loin, 
under & up again as U face the dog's side; feed the clip thru the wrist-loop, draw up gently & clip it 
into the bandolier-style leash's clip -- now U have a long 'handle' with loops at both ends for security, 
around both the dog's waist & their chest.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> So is this Dane cross aggressive with other dogs or people?


no. 


Jenny Olley said:


> I don't like the heel position [he] is in...


he's not in heel-position. 


Jenny Olley said:


> I am however not familiar with the harness being used, what happens
> if the dog does go to lunge forward, I mean the mechanics of it how does the harness work & prevent the lunge?


the *harness* does not 'prevent' lunges - the *handler* does, or does not.

all front-clip harnesses work in similar fashion: the dog's leverage is greatly reduced, 
& the contact-point being on the chest means the dog can be turned toward the handler. 
it is easy to turn the dog in a U-turn with minimal force & face them away from something the dog 
might like to chase, or a stranger to jump on, or another dog they'd usually drag the handler toward.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

leashedForLife said:


> no.
> 
> he's not in heel-position.
> 
> ...


thanks for your replies, what would you call the position the dog is in I just call the walking position heel position

thanks for the explanation of the harness.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> ...what would you call the position the dog is in[?]
> I just call the walking position, 'heel position'[.]


he's walking on a loose-leash, AKA abbreviated LLW - loose-leash walk, which is any position re the handler 
that the handler approves, with minimal tension on the leash.

HEEL position is actually rather stringently defined. here are some drawings - 
Dog Training - Obedience Training

i do NOT recommend the training-technique, which is heavily reminiscent of Koehler. 
but the illustrations of heel-position are relatively accurate, without the asinine current wrap-around: 
that means the dog's head is expected to 'wrap' Ur leg & stare up the handler's nostrils as tho 
boring twin-holes in their sinuses with k9-laser-vision; it looks ridiculous & i'm sure gives dogs a kink 
in their necks, walking forward with their heads gazing up & back, over their own right-shoulders. 

normally the dog's forearm is expected to be in line with the handler's left leg while standing, or keep pace 
as the handler walks, trots double-time, or slow-walks. personally, i prefer the dog further back, 
with their eyes / front edge of the back-skull level with my pants' side-seams. 
that way when i turn left - into the dog - i have no worries about stepping into or tripping-over the dog. 
it also means they can easily see intention movements with their peripheral vision before i change gear, 
change direction or slow to halt.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> that means the dog's head is expected to 'wrap' Ur leg & stare up the handler's nostrils as tho
> boring twin-holes in their sinuses with k9-laser-vision; it looks ridiculous & i'm sure gives dogs a kink
> in their necks, walking forward with their heads gazing up & back, over their own right-shoulders


As Twiggy and I discussed, certain things cultivated for show in "formal obedience" are not the most practical thing for walking the streets (like dogs not looking where they're going & bumping into trees and posts rather than naturally moving around them). It was in a thread discussing Dunbar, with video clip illustrating the "All or Nothing" method.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> I had a dog in one of my classes who had nerve damage due to being abused with a choke chain by his previous owner. One side of his face completely drooped and he could stand nothing around his neck.


And Austin aka LuvMyDogsWorldwide pointed to German autopsy research (apparently plausible source) comparing Prong with Choke Chains, only 2 out of 50 or 60 dogs did not have evidence of trauma post-mortem.

Anyone still using a choke chain is simply ignoring facts; they damage dogs!


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

sorry posted twice


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

leashedForLife said:


> he's walking on a loose-leash, AKA abbreviated LLW - loose-leash walk, which is any position re the handler
> that the handler approves, with minimal tension on the leash.
> 
> HEEL position is actually rather stringently defined. here are some drawings -
> ...


Thanks for your explanation, I do compete with my dog so understand the requirements of the competition heelwork position.
Even with the pet dogs I would always teach a similar heel position, but without too much heady up and call it a heel position, I like my people to be in better control of the head, thats the bit that will get them into trouble, but us dog trainers are all different, there is only one thing 2 trainers will agree on the third is wrong.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> ...there is only one thing 2 trainers will agree on[,] the third is wrong.


i disagree :lol: there are over a dozen fellow-trainers that, if i were hurt or sick or otherwise unable to raise 
my current pup, i'd trust them to *do it right, in my stead.* that's a massive responsibility & faith, 
since the first 12-mos of living with humans builds the dog we live with for a decade or more, & mistakes 
that continue for even a month can be disastrous & highly persistent - chronic, in fact.

there are probably many more trainers of whom i could say the same - but i just don't know them well-enuf. 
and BTW: every one of that trusted group are persons i've never met in life; none are local, no personal friends, 
but colleagues i've known virtually for years.

conversely, a number of trainers use aversives or intimidation to coerce dogs in training or during B-Mod; 
i can confidently say that all of those dozen-plus trainers & i would agree that those are methods or tools 
that we do not agree with, and would not use under any circumstances. Some of the coercive trainers are 
high-profile - & either famous or infamous, depending on to whom U speak; some are very low-profile, 
but are relatively well-known among trainers as a group, due to their methods or outspoken advocacy of them.

so i think the degree to which trainers agree is vastly underestimated - & that joke does not ring true, 
any longer. :001_smile: which i think is a good thing; coherence in a discipline is good. 
there are still dozens if not hundreds of ways to address a particular training problem, even if we remove 
the aversive, confrontational & intimidating methods or tools from consideration altogether.

i can teach the same pup "NOT to jump-up" - _a fallacious phrase, since actually i teach do X, instead_ - 
in many, many ways: teach Sit To Greet, ignore all jump-ups & walk-off, deliver a short immediate time-out, 
offer attention only to 4-on-the-floor, divert the pup to a favorite game like tug [re-direct to preclude jumping], 
or other variants - or even all of the above, so long as i cue the Sit & don't expect an auto-sit, without conflict.

if the dog or pup knows 'fetch' & enjoys it, i can even fling a fetch-dummy before the pup jumps-up, 
cue fetch, & reward the pup on return for sitting to present it - no jumping occurs, as sit is incompatible 
with jump-up: U can do one or t'other, not both.  every one of these gets me to my goal behavior, 
without aversive tools, scolding, corrections, etc. Lots of options, all safe & humane.

re tools - i'd say No One that i can think of offhand who is reward-based thinks that front-clip harnesses, 
similar to those BVHS gave out, are incorrect, inhumane or pointless - they are GRAS [generally regarded 
as safe] as well as effective control of dogs who are over-aroused, untrained & powerful, have a history 
of aggro or are predatory, or who outmatch the handler. they are also immediately useable, requiring 
no habituation, so are perfect for safe management *** if the headcollar is a safer option, as in dog-aggro 
or human-aggro, where we want to avoid stare-downs or a build-up to confrontation.

i would say there's a lot of coherence among reward-based trainers, today. 
we agree not only on what we avoid, but what we actively choose & use - yet it still leaves variety.

EDIT: 
*** oops, meant to say the front-clip is perfect for safe-mgmt *while habituating the headcollar,* an absolutely imperative step, 
which takes about 5 to 7 days on average from first getting the dog to put their own nose in, to wearing it happily. 
so the front-clip is the immediate-use mgmt tool, & the headcollar for fine-tuning or control by a disabled handler, etc.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> And Austin aka LuvMyDogsWorldwide pointed to German autopsy research (apparently plausible source) comparing Prong with Choke Chains, only 2 out of 50 or 60 dogs did not have evidence of trauma post-mortem.
> Anyone still using a choke chain is simply ignoring facts; they damage dogs


That study is unlikey ever to have existed in the way it is & was originaly claimed.

It first came about on the net as a quote from Anne Marie Silverton, a US OB champ of some years ago, maybe 90's, I dont know for sure. It was first put on net advertising an elasticated lead & she was quoted as the source.

I spoke to her about it as long ago as 2002, she said she got it from a German magazine the name of which she did not know & she could not remember the uni it was supposed to be conducted at or much else about the details, in fact, she said she could not remember anything clear about it.

It has long since lost any credibilty as being a study by those who tried to research it. If anyone wants to try further research on the existance of that study the place to start & almost certainly end is The University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover if they cannot trace anything then best to do what most have already done and dismiss any claims as to its credibilty.

Having said that, the prong collar is by far and away the safest, least stressfull & most effective collar of all, harnesses, flat buckle collars, halties are all very well when they work and the individual dog(s) they work with but as soon as they become ineffective the owner should go straight to a prong collar for safety, effectiveness and to eliminate the physiological & mental stress of those items. The prong collar will start to work in the first minuet and the end of all the mental & physical stress of both dog and owner will be at an end within 5 mins after weeks, months or years of pulling each other.

Hanover Vet Uni
HANNOVER.DE - University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover Foundation

The 400 dog Hallgren study on flat buckles, neck, back, trachea damage due to pulling on flat buckles, he found no damage from choke chains BUT the proper choke chains are the ones with large links not tthe more common ones with small little links. Note, I do not use choke chains, I don't like them & personally I dont consider them safe, but, thats an opinion, I know of no studies which support that.

Anders Hallgren Study on 400 dogs & Flat Buckle Damage


> And Austin aka LuvMyDogsWorldwide pointed to German autopsy research (apparently plausible source) comparing Prong with Choke Chains, only 2 out of 50 or 60 dogs did not have evidence of trauma post-mortem.
> Anyone still using a choke chain is simply ignoring facts; they damage dogs


That study is unlikey ever to have existed in the way it is & was originaly claimed.

It first came about on the net as a quote from Anne Marie Silverton, a US OB champ of some years ago, maybe 90's, I dont know for sure. It was first put on net advertising an elasticated lead & she was quoted as the source.

I spoke to her about it as long ago as 2002, she said she got it from a German magazine the name of which she did not know & she could not remember the uni it was supposed to be conducted at or much else about the details, in fact, she said she could not remember anything clear about it.

It has long since lost any credibilty as being a study by those who tried to research it. If anyone wants to try further research on the existance of that study the place to start & almost certainly end is The University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover if they cannot trace anything then best to do what most have already done and dismiss any claims as to its credibilty.

Having said that, the prong collar is by far and away the safest, least stressfull & most effective collar of all, harnesses, flat buckle collars, halties are all very well when they work and the individual dog(s) they work with but as soon as they become ineffective the owner should go straight to a prong collar for safety, effectiveness and to eliminate the physiological & mental stress of those items. The prong collar will start to work in the first minuet and the end of all the mental & physical stress of both dog and owner will be at an end within 5 mins after weeks, months or years of pulling each other.

Hanover Vet Uni
HANNOVER.DE - University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover Foundation

The 400 dog Hallgren study on flat buckles, neck, back, trachea damage due to pulling on flat buckles, he found no damage from choke chains BUT the proper choke chains are the ones with large links not tthe more common ones with small little links. Note, I do not use choke chains, I don't like them & personally I dont consider them safe, but, thats an opinion, I know of no studies which support that.

Anders Hallgren 1991 study on flat buckles & pulling damage
Dog Pulling On Leash - EDUCATIONAL E-COLLAR DOG

.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> And Austin aka LuvMyDogsWorldwide pointed to German autopsy research (apparently plausible source) comparing Prong with Choke Chains, only 2 out of 50 or 60 dogs did not have evidence of trauma post-mortem.
> 
> Anyone still using a choke chain is simply ignoring facts; they damage dogs!


That's a blatant lie Rob, find me the post.

regards,

Austin


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> That's a blatant lie Rob, find me the post.


I should have known, eah dear!

.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> That's a blatant lie Rob, find me the post


Nonsense, you posted some references (which I followed) in the thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/150472-self-correction-collar.html?highlight=correction where you wanted to compare Prongs to Choke or Aversive Head Collars; if you're now recommending choke chains it's an odd U-turn, especially considering how cheap such a chain is.

As you are generally rude & abusive, it's not my policy to assist you, so read your own posts, all of them.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Nonsense, you posted some references (which I followed) in the thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/150472-self-correction-collar.html?highlight=correction where you wanted to compare Prongs to Choke or Aversive Head Collars; if you're now recommending choke chains it's an odd U-turn, especially considering how cheap such a chain is.
> 
> As you are generally rude & abusive, it's not my policy to assist you, so read your own posts, all of them.


Rob, when you make an accusation and someone asks you to provide proof, the onus of providing that proof isn't down to the person being accused...it's down to you, the person making the accusation. Your policy may not be to "assist" me, but I'd certainly expect you to be man enough to back up your own statements with your own proof.

So, that said, I took the time to read all the posts and something very perculiar turned up.

Your accusation was very clear:



> And Austin aka LuvMyDogsWorldwide pointed to German autopsy research (apparently plausible source) comparing Prong with Choke Chains, only 2 out of 50 or 60 dogs did not have evidence of trauma post-mortem.


Well, at no point is there any mention by myself of either choke collars, or autopsy studies, I had only mentioned headcollars......until post number #178

*"But of course, LuvMyDogs, you know better and there's no problem and all is well, and owners can be trusted; despite the German autopsy on choke showing 48/50 dogs having neck trauma."*

And the poster was:

*RobD-BCactive*

OMG Rob, it was you...YOU mentioned the German autopsy study. In fact, YOU continued mentioning headcollars and choke collars into post number #180



> A head collar applies a lateral force where a collar or prong applies a compression force, i.e a flat collar and prong tighten, a headcollar travels, that's the nature of the design
> 
> Yes Prong is much safer and better than choke chain, that does not make it the safest or best system.


And finally my retort in post number #185



> Um, Rob, have you been paying attention? I said "headcollars", not "choke chains", head...choke....no??


Even then I was correcting you on trying to change the subject and bring choke collars into the discussion.....and carried on with:



> The German neck trauma article? You found Suzanne Clothier? BTW, my name's Austin, not LuvMyDogs, and it's actually LuvMyDog, there's no 's'.
> 
> Tell me Rob, do you have a transcript of the actual study or just what you read on her page? The page she's hidden and made more difficult to find and since distanced herself from?


I know you just picked something abridged off the first page of Google and paraphrased, you need to jump through hoops to find the Suzanne Clothier article.....and you don't even know who she is because in your accusation you stated:



> Austin aka LuvMyDogsWorldwide pointed to German autopsy research (apparently plausible source) comparing Prong with Choke Chains


You found it and brought it up Rob, not me, and you still don't even know who wrote it?

So as for your accusation:



> Nonsense, you posted some references (which I followed) in the thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/150472-self-correction-collar.html?highlight=correction where you wanted to compare Prongs to Choke or Aversive Head Collars


It's clear to see
1) I didn't compare choke collars to anything!
2) I didn't point to a German autopsy study

Now to top it all, I've just come back off a 2 week ban for calling Rob a liar and stating his ability to research is inadequate even by the lowest standards. I stand by that statement and can at least prove what I said. And if anyone wants to varify it and see the actual level of Rob's so called "research" then it starts on page 18.

By the way Rob, It's LuvMyDog_Worldwide, not "LuvMyDogsWorldwide" there's still no 'S' in it.



> if you're now recommending choke chains it's an odd U-turn, especially considering how cheap such a chain is.


Always trying to change the subject when challenged eh? Don't try to twist my words Rob, expecially when I didn't even say a single one of those words to start with.

regards,

Austin


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