# People not Vaccinating their dogs



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

*Just to make this clear, this is an old thread. My views on my original post do NOT represent what I think now. I have learnt a lot over the past year.
*
I'm sick to death of hearing about people not vaccinating their dogs.

Vaccination is SO important. It is vital to prevent deadly diseases.

Far more dogs die from not vaccinating than from over vaccination. I can not deny that auto-immune diseases exist, however the risk of contracting the disease and dieing is greater than the risk from over vaccination.

For people who don't want to fully vaccinate every year, you can ask your vet to do a rota of Lepto yearly and the full vaccine every 3 years. This prevents over vaccination but your dog is still covered for the diseases. This is the best solution at the moment for over vaccination.

Do not vaccinate an unhealthy dog. Only healthy dogs should receive vaccinations, which lessens the risk of getting an auto immune disease. Wait until your dog has recovered, or if it is a chronic condition, speak to your vet about the best course of action.

Please keep your dog vaccinated. The diseases are still out there and outbreaks are common.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Can I just say that after initial vaccinations then it is up to the individual concerned and the reasons behind either not or having them done 

We have a breed that can actually be done more harm than good from their boosters, it can bring on an epileptic fit although the dog is otherwise healthy 

So please do not preach on this one as it is an owners own decision whether to vaccinate or not !!! Ours only EVER have their initial vaccines (our decision) and we have had many many dogs over 40+ years


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

tashi said:


> Can I just say that after initial vaccinations then it is up to the individual concerned and the reasons behind either not or having them done
> 
> We have a breed that can actually be done more harm than good from their boosters, it can bring on an epileptic fit although the dog is otherwise healthy
> 
> So please do not preach on this one as it is an owners own decision whether to vaccinate or not !!! Ours only EVER have their initial vaccines (our decision) and we have had many many dogs over 40+ years


that is your choice. As your breed is particularly suspectible to vaccinations, then you need to take advice from your vet (which I'm sure you have) and you have come to that decision.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'm sick to death of hearing about people not vaccinating their dogs.
> 
> Vaccination is SO important. It is vital to prevent deadly diseases.
> 
> ...


Don't think there are many owners out there that could disagree with anything you say here!
Great post!

I think the problem regarding vaccs, and has been for many years is that many vets WILL and DO give the annual boosters without ever asking if the dog is showing any signs of illness. ANOTHER problem HAS been that the fat cats - the big drug companies reccommend that the boosters be given annually! The vets therefore have no alternative but to administrate as per the manufacturers dosage reccommendations! There is, I believe, one of the larger manufaturers that are in the process of altering the doses.

My vet last time gave Milly three (I think it were three could have been two) of the shots! Saying the other four were NOT needed.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I used to feel the same way as you Sevenpets, so do understand how you feel in a way. However due to experience and my own reading/research, there is not a cats chance in **** that I will do any other than puppy vaccinations now.

As Tashi wisely said, it's up to individual owners.

People (generalising, I don't mean you) can gnash their teeth and wring their hands at my decision, I don't give a monkeys'. I do what I believe is best for my dogs and others can do what think is 

Always an emotive subject and people will cite cases of the horrors of dogs dieing from parvo, while others will recall the despair of caring for a much loved vaccine damaged dog or losing one soon after booster .... sometimes later due to auto immune issues.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Mine only had their jabs as pups.I personaly don't agree with vaccinating all the time.*


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

blade has only ever had his puppy vaccs and then his booster when he was 1 yrs old.

he's now coming up to 6 yrs old and he has been fine with no health issues.

my step grandad who had 2 belgian shepherds(one died recenrly of old age at 13yrs old)only vaccinated them as pups.
they have never even had any annual boosters and his dogs were in tip top condition,the one he has left is 8yrs and he's in fab health.
he takes them everywhere other dogs go and there's been no issues.

we humans don't need vaccinating every year so why do our dogs?

after reading this i know what i'd rather do and lets not forget thats only the ones that have been reported!
Spangler


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Dangers of Vaccinations


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I can't make up my mind whether this thread labels me as a bad owner or not because I don't know what is wrong with Rupert hence haven't had him done.

To be fair, if he had been done with something like Nobivac he wouldn't even be overdue for anything except Lepto and para influenza right now I don't think, but he was done with another brand which has not been tested longer. He will get titred, but he will need sedating and I don't want to sedate him just for that, its not fair on him...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

But don't you know the drug companies just made up those diseases and then gave dogs them in vaccines and made them sick so you'd vaccinate them. Dogs could live to like 200 without vaccines/antibiotics. Humans even longer. 

I wish I was kidding I've seen all of these arguements on raw feeding groups .

I vaccinate every 3 years apart from lepto every year. Let's think what was the average human lifespan 100 years ago pre- standard vaccines and anitbiotics 40-50. Dogs dying as soon as the owners got them home from parvo or distemper. You don't vaccinate you're relying on everyone's else's dogs being vaccinated to stop the diseases spreading. The less people vaccinate the more incidences of these illnesses. Same with humans look at how the cases of measles and rubella increased after the MMR/autisim scare. But of course I'm guessing the drug companies somehow made all these people sick to make money?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I can't make up my mind whether this thread labels me as a bad owner or not because I don't know what is wrong with Rupert...


As long as you are trying your best to get him sorted, you are a very good owner 

I don't think this thread labels anyone, we are all just trying to do what we think is best x


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> But don't you know the drug companies just made up those diseases and then gave dogs them in vaccines and made them sick so you'd vaccinate them. Dogs could live to like 200 without vaccines/antibiotics. Humans even longer.
> 
> I wish I was kidding I've seen all of these arguements on raw feeding groups .
> 
> I vaccinate every 3 years apart from lepto every year. Let's think what was the average human lifespan 100 years ago pre- standard vaccines and anitbiotics 40-50. Dogs dying as soon as the owners got them home from parvo or distemper. You don't vaccinate you're relying on everyone's else's dogs being vaccinated to stop the diseases spreading. The less people vaccinate the more incidences of these illnesses. Same with humans look at how the cases of measles and rubella increased after the MMR/autisim scare. But of course I'm guessing the drug companies somehow made all these people sick to make money?


I am not relying on other people vaccinating their dogs. Rupert does not have an immunity of zero to all of the diseases by any means, but his immunity is also probably not as high as someone who boosters every single year to the day.

Honestly do you all really think I should just get him his boosters when his immunity might be fine and he could have a health problem meaning he should not be vaccinated


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

GoldenShadow said:


> I can't make up my mind whether this thread labels me as a bad owner or not because I don't know what is wrong with Rupert hence haven't had him done.
> 
> To be fair, if he had been done with something like Nobivac he wouldn't even be overdue for anything except Lepto and para influenza right now I don't think, but he was done with another brand which has not been tested longer. He will get titred, but he will need sedating and I don't want to sedate him just for that, its not fair on him...


In that case that makes me a bad owner as well


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

GoldenShadow said:


> I am not relying on other people vaccinating their dogs. Rupert does not have an immunity of zero to all of the diseases by any means, but his immunity is also probably not as high as someone who boosters every single year to the day.
> 
> Honestly do you all really think I should just get him his boosters when his immunity might be fine and he could have a health problem meaning he should not be vaccinated


You are driving yourself round and round in circles and to be honest everybody's views on here are their own, this is something that only YOU can decide upon, in a subject as immotive as this one you will never solve it by asking other people !!!! If you did have him vaccinated and things went wrong it would be OUR fault on the other hand if you didnt and something happened then that too would be OUR fault for giving you the wrong information or 'forcing' you into a decision  The decision has to be totally yours ! All you can do is read up on the pros and cons and go from that


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## xxsarahpopsxx (Sep 30, 2009)

my parents only ever gave our dogs puppy vacs and they lived a very long and healthy life - they were hardly ever at the vets due to them being so healthy.
So they were bad owners for not pumping them full of crap that wasnt necessary.

We are unsure of what geordie has had in her life. we know that since we have had her she has had puppy vacs plus a booster after the year. however we got her at 7 months but as we have no history for her we have no idea if she had any vacs before we got her. that means she may have had 2 sets of puppy jags plus a booster.

However when she is due her booster this year i will be having a very frank discussion with both my vet practices to get both their opinions and then go from there. If i was staying in the city then i would probably put that as a pro for getting a booster however we are going more rural hopefully in the summer so we may not get them doe this year and just get them done every couple of years! 

I dont think it's right to go preaching to people what is right or wrong. It is such a controversial topic at the moment that owners should have the option to fully inform themselves and base their decisions on that as opposed to getting made to feel like a bad owner because they do not agree with you


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

tashi said:


> You are driving yourself round and round in circles and to be honest everybody's views on here are their own, this is something that only YOU can decide upon, in a subject as immotive as this one you will never solve it by asking other people !!!! If you did have him vaccinated and things went wrong it would be OUR fault on the other hand if you didnt and something happened then that too would be OUR fault for giving you the wrong information or 'forcing' you into a decision  The decision has to be totally yours ! All you can do is read up on the pros and cons and go from that


I have my own conclusion, I think I always have really. I will never ever vaccinate him again unless his titre test shows he needs it, I couldn't ever take him to have his shots and feel confident, I would be terrified something would go wrong which leads me to feel I can never just let him have them without tests showing he needs them. But some people on here really do seem to be strongly pushing me in the other direction which makes me feel rather uneasy.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree this is a personal choice. Whatever the decision, it's seldom taken lightly and has the best interest of our pets at heart.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

GoldenShadow said:


> But some people on here really do seem to be strongly pushing me in the other direction which makes me feel rather uneasy.


The thing is you're never going to agree with everyone 100%. You're never going to convince everyone to feed raw, or to train using the same methods, or to vaccine every year. As someone else on here said, these forums are good for showing two sides of the coin, but at the end of the day decisions regarding your dog lie with you, and people's opinions on here shouldn't pressure you into doing something which everyone else thinks is right. It's like any debate religion, politics etc. Everyone has different opinions, but aslong as you make an informed decision, no one else has the right to tell you its *wrong*.
So I think this thread is a bit cheeky. We'll be in a doggy dictatorship soon


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

its up to individual owners if they vaccinate or not. Akira has just had her anual jab (first one) and I will be looking into it more closely before getting her next one.

Why should it bother you Sevenpets? As long as you have done what you think is best by your dog, what does it matter what other people do..... same with neutering....... its up to the individual to do as they see fit, and does not make them a bad owner because it doesnt meet with your personal requirements


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

tashi said:


> Can I just say that after initial vaccinations then it is up to the individual concerned and the reasons behind either not or having them done
> 
> We have a breed that can actually be done more harm than good from their boosters, it can bring on an epileptic fit although the dog is otherwise healthy
> 
> So please do not preach on this one as it is an owners own decision whether to vaccinate or not !!! Ours only EVER have their initial vaccines (our decision) and we have had many many dogs over 40+ years


I have been wondering all morning if vaccinations were the reason for our Sam's epilepsy?? - guess we'll never get to the bottom of it but it has crossed my mind. (For those that don't know - have just taken puppy to vets for second lot of vaccinations).


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> The thing is you're never going to agree with everyone 100%. You're never going to convince everyone to feed raw, or to train using the same methods, or to vaccine every year. As someone else on here said, these forums are good for showing two sides of the coin, but at the end of the day decisions regarding your dog lie with you, and people's opinions on here shouldn't pressure you into doing something which everyone else thinks is right. It's like any debate religion, politics etc. Everyone has different opinions, but aslong as you make an informed decision, no one else has the right to tell you its *wrong*.
> So I think this thread is a bit cheeky. We'll be in a doggy dictatorship soon


It just bugs me the way people are trying to change my mind about vaccinating Rupert even now when I know what I want to do. I've had PM's about it, its like FFS I don't think I should lets just leave it now 

I don't try and convince people to do anything, I make suggestions


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

cutekiaro1 said:


> Why should it bother you Sevenpets? As long as you have done what you think is best by your dog, what does it matter what other people do..... same with neutering....... its up to the individual to do as they see fit, and does not make them a bad owner because it doesnt meet with your personal requirements


Probably because, as Nicky10 explained, the fewer people that vaccinate, the greater chance of an outbreak of these diseases. Anyone with stories of how their dog has been fine without vaccination is failing to recognise that the reason for that is because others have prevented the disease from spreading by having their pets vaccinated. Herd immunity has eradicated some killer diseases in humans, enabling those who are unable to be vaccinated for health resons to be safe from the disease. 
Of course we all have a choice, but personally, I can't leave the responsibility towards_ all _dogs not just my own, out of the equation.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

myshkin said:


> Probably because, as Nicky10 explained, the fewer people that vaccinate, the greater chance of an outbreak of these diseases. Anyone with stories of how their dog has been fine without vaccination is failing to recognise that the reason for that is because others have prevented the disease from spreading by having their pets vaccinated. Herd immunity has eradicated some killer diseases in humans, enabling those who are unable to be vaccinated for health resons to be safe from the disease.
> Of course we all have a choice, but personally, I can't leave the responsibility towards_ all _dogs not just my own, out of the equation.


Actually, I believe much more in the logic that if 100% people vaccinated the chances of the diseases mutating into strains which we do not vaccinate against would be much higher. So then most people's dogs would get hit, it does happen this is why some dogs get parvo when vaccinated, the strains mutate into ones our dogs are not protected against.

There is no clear cut answer.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

It's like people telling you how to raise your kids, am I bad mother just because I didn't breastfeed? I'm sure many breastfeeders would think so! I just think, you know your situation, you know your dog, you know the benefits, you know the downsides, at the end of the day it's up to you. Noone is ever going to support everything you do 100%, but once you've made your mind up, I think you can listen to advice, but not be made to feel guilty for not taking all of it.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Also depends on yor pet insurance wont cover if not vacanated


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

......................................................................


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Actually, I believe much more in the logic that if 100% people vaccinated the chances of the diseases mutating into strains which we do not vaccinate against would be much higher. So then most people's dogs would get hit, it does happen this is why some dogs get parvo when vaccinated, the strains mutate into ones our dogs are not protected against.
> 
> There is no clear cut answer.


Vaccination doesn't guarantee protection from the disease. A lack of uptake on vaccination causes the outbreaks, which then put even vaccinated individuals at risk.
Polio hasn't mutated, it's been virtually eradicated. Measles, mumps etc. haven't mutated, they've been controlled by mass vaccination to the extent that they are no longer the killer childhood diseases they were 100 years ago. 
The viral diseases that can mutate are dealt with by evolving vaccines, as with human flu. It's not 100% foolproof, and involves guesswork, but it saves many lives.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Tapir said:


> How often should you vaccinate then? what if the dog needs to go in Kennels, or needs proof of vaccination?
> 
> Are vaccines bad for dogs?


Nobi Vac state the full lot every three years and Lepto (maybe another I've not looked lately) every year.

Where we are now Rupert shouldn't ever need to go into kennels. Uncle would move in for however long and see to the dogs, or I know another uncle and one of my aunts would.

Rupert would need proof of vaccination for hydrotherapy (just for something fun to do), a lot of training classes, and some dog parks. So he can't go. But tbh I'm not willing to get him vaccinated when his health isn't 100% just to do some of the three things above.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

myshkin said:


> I can't leave the responsibility towards_ all _dogs not just my own, out of the equation.


Then we can only guess you have not lost a much loved dog after vaccination, or seen one decline due to auto immune probs and die at an early age 

A noble stance though, but I am quite a selfish dog owner and I put my own dogs first. I owe it to them


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

myshkin said:


> Vaccination doesn't guarantee protection from the disease. A lack of uptake on vaccination causes the outbreaks, which then put even vaccinated individuals at risk.
> Polio hasn't mutated, it's been virtually eradicated. Measles, mumps etc. haven't mutated, they've been controlled by mass vaccination to the extent that they are no longer the killer childhood diseases they were 100 years ago.
> The viral diseases that can mutate are dealt with by evolving vaccines, as with human flu. It's not 100% foolproof, and involves guesswork, but it saves many lives.


But there are, and will always be the odd few who die or are adversely affected by vaccinations. I'm not saying I condone people not vaccinating, I think people ought to titre test their dogs to at least get a vague picture, but I don't think its right to vaccinate every year or even every three when certain brands of vaccine have been tested up to 7 years still showing strong immunity.

There are a scarey amount of diseases which do mutate, and some with so many strains you could never protect against them all but it is not me not vaccinating my dog causing one other person's dog to die of a disease, that's not fair


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

tashi said:


> Can I just say that after initial vaccinations then it is up to the individual concerned and the reasons behind either not or having them done
> 
> We have a breed that can actually be done more harm than good from their boosters, it can bring on an epileptic fit although the dog is otherwise healthy
> 
> So please do not preach on this one as it is an owners own decision whether to vaccinate or not !!! Ours only EVER have their initial vaccines (our decision) and we have had many many dogs over 40+ years


Entirely agree Tashi. Same here, we have had dogs for over 40 years too and only puppy vaccinations although I did have my oldest dog vaccinated again at five years old when we got a puppy but don't think I will be vaccinating again.

It's up to the individual and people have no right to preach.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

myshkin said:


> Probably because, as Nicky10 explained, the fewer people that vaccinate, the greater chance of an outbreak of these diseases. Anyone with stories of how their dog has been fine without vaccination is failing to recognise that the reason for that is because others have prevented the disease from spreading by having their pets vaccinated. Herd immunity has eradicated some killer diseases in humans, enabling those who are unable to be vaccinated for health resons to be safe from the disease.
> Of course we all have a choice, but personally, I can't leave the responsibility towards_ all _dogs not just my own, out of the equation.


but it is not your decision to make, it is up to the owners of the dogs themselves.

I would be very annoyed if someone tried to tell me what was right and wrong for my dog. She is mine and I will make any decisions based on what I know about her personally. Every dog is different and so are the owners. Its not up to others to preach about it as it is something that is persoanl choice.

Im not saying people cant have an opinion, of course they can and they are invaluable in certain situations but it is wrong for people to put pressure on owners because you believe something is right. (dont mean you personally just people in general)


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

new westie owner said:


> Also depends on yor pet insurance wont cover if not vacanated


They do cover but you have to tick the box to say they aren't vaccinated. They just won't pay out for any disease that vaccination could have prevented.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Jazzy said:


> They do cover but you have to tick the box to say they aren't vaccinated. They just won't pay out for any disease that vaccination could have prevented.


That's right with company we use.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

But if they have the initial puppy vaccs, but not the boosters, are they covered?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> B
> There are a scarey amount of diseases which do mutate, and some with so many strains you could never protect against them all but it is not me not vaccinating my dog causing one other person's dog to die of a disease, that's not fair


I think you feel I'm attacking your decision for your dog - I'm not, I'm trying to explain that in cases like yours where the risks involved mean you can't, your dog is protected because enough people do vaccinate to prevent the spread of the disease. That's why I believe that if there is no health issue preventing vaccination, it should be done, to protect not only the vaccinated dog, but those who can't have it.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> That's right with company we use.


I'm with Argos I don't have to tell them anything about vaccines but they just wont let me claim if its something they could have prevented


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Liquidsunshine said:


> But if they have the initial puppy vaccs, but not the boosters, are they covered?


Do you mean insurance or disease?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It's your choice what to do with your dogs of course it is I'm just putting my side of it


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Sorry, I meant insurance wise


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> It just bugs me the way people are trying to change my mind about vaccinating Rupert even now when I know what I want to do. I've had PM's about it, its like FFS I don't think I should lets just leave it now
> 
> I don't try and convince people to do anything, I make suggestions


*Best thing to do with those sending pm's about it is tell them to mind their own business.Its like telling someone how to raise their kids,cheeky gits.*


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

myshkin said:


> I think you feel I'm attacking your decision for your dog - I'm not, I'm trying to explain that in cases like yours where the risks involved mean you can't, your dog is protected because enough people do vaccinate to prevent the spread of the disease. That's why I believe that if there is no health issue preventing vaccination, it should be done, to protect not only the vaccinated dog, but those who can't have it.


No I do agree with you, but I would take it a step further and say if a titre test shows they are lacking in immunity I would get them vaccinated. But to me, if a titre shows that they are OK I would not bother for that year/three years depending who you use.

My dog is not protected because other people vaccinate, he is protected because I got him his puppy shots, and his first annual booster. A lot of manufacturers recommend boosters 3 yearly, so as such, he is only not covered for Lepto if you look at it like that. It is by no means other people protecting my dog.

Other people like this, could well be saving my dog's life:

Spangler


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

All my dogs are vaccinated up to date apart from Scorcher. Because of her immune problem the vaccine makes her sick so me and the vet both thought it was best to give the puppy vaccines and no boosters.

My shelties however are fully vaccinated as is charlie.

And hopefully scorcher will improve so she can have the boosters.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I only vaccinate to go dog training, but when I first adopted Maya I did not vaccinate her for a year, although the rescue did not vaccinate her I had no idea if who ever had her before had vaccinated her, so I waited a year. It's not unusal for me to miss a month or so, it's rare if I do it spot on the date.

Maya is between 4-5 years of age so I don't see the worry but with a dog under 2 then I would keep up to date.

If I hear of parvo going around then I tend to be more up to date.

My cat is another case he's almost 8 now and has NEVER had a vacicnation in his life and likely never will. He's a nueterd cat that goes outdoors, none of my cats have ever been vaccinated in their lives and i'm not about to start now. 

My own vaccinations are the same, when everyone was going mad for the flue jab, swine flu jab, cerval cancer jab etc I just skipped it, heck I was 5 years out of date on by polio, tetnus etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I do belive in vaccinating but it's easy to over vaccinate.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> Sorry, I meant insurance wise


No if they aren't boostered as your vet recommends then they aren't covered for preventable diseases insurance wise.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Oh ok, cool, just wanted to clear that up, thanks!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

The Opening Post is my opinion, and what I think people _should_ do, but I can not make anyone do it and I don't want people to feel bad for not doing it, especially when their pets are unwell, such as GoldenShadow's Rupert. Honestly hun, you should follow your vet's advice and research yourself and find your decision.  This thread was not aimed at you at all as I know you love your Rupert and you are doing the best for him.

I did state in the first post that unhealthy dogs shouldn't be vaccinated. Even the drug companies state that only healthy dogs should be vaccinated.

There are outbreaks of parvo and other diseases out there, and the less vaccinated dogs there are, the more palvent the diseases will become. They will mutate and affect the vaccinated dogs also (which is why I care about vaccination), so if you choose not to vaccinate, you do have to be careful and you should titre test also. I can't make anyone vaccinate all their dogs, but it's of my opinion that healthy dogs should be vaccinated.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't titre test for the simple reason I would not vaccinate whatever it said.

My approach is that I keep my dogs as healthy as I can by maintaining a good lifestyle for them and let their immune system do the rest.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'm sick to death of hearing about people not vaccinating their dogs.
> 
> Vaccination is SO important. It is vital to prevent deadly diseases.
> 
> ...


Completely disagree and I ain't lining a vets/drug companies pocket, or putting my dog at risk for something that isn't warranted.
Titre testing proves that antibodies remain in a dogs system far longer than one year and if in doubt have your dog tested before you overload it's system with virus's. New research also proves yearly boosters are not needed.
Yearly "Booster" Vaccinations - Does Your Dog Need Them?


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## The3DChis (Jan 17, 2011)

If it wasnt for my insurance i would only do the puppy vacs then the booster, then do it every 3 years.
As it is i have to do it every year to be covered.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The3DChis said:


> If it wasnt for my insurance i would only do the puppy vacs then the booster, then do it every 3 years.
> As it is i have to do it every year to be covered.


I am not worried whether we are covered or not for illnesses that could have been prevented, I am more worried about the dangers of over vaccination 

But that said we could afford to pay for treatment should they catch anything "vacccination would have prevented " ... I appreciate not everyone can... Generalising, I don't mean you


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Completely disagree and I ain't lining a vets/drug companies pocket, or putting my dog at risk for something that isn't warranted.
> Titre testing proves that antibodies remain in a dogs system far longer than one year and if in doubt have your dog tested before you overload it's system with virus's. New research also proves yearly boosters are not needed.
> Yearly "Booster" Vaccinations - Does Your Dog Need Them?


my vet has actually told me it is a money spinner mine have their puppy vacs and thats it


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The3DChis said:


> If it wasnt for my insurance i would only do the puppy vacs then the booster, then do it every 3 years.
> As it is i have to do it every year to be covered.


I know they wouldn't be covered for anything that vaccination may have prevented, but they are for everything else - Flynns hip replacement last year proves this, so i'll take the chance of having to pay should the worse happen but have to say with all the dogs i've owned in the past it never has and I go back a few years  so just hope that continues.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I used to feel the same way as you Sevenpets, so do understand how you feel in a way. However due to experience and my own reading/research, there is not a cats chance in **** that I will do any other than puppy vaccinations now.
> 
> As Tashi wisely said, it's up to individual owners.
> 
> ...


When some clever person tells me how to transfer pictures from an old dead computer to this on i'll post some pictures that can only be described as horiffic!(AI related)


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> The Opening Post is my opinion, and what I think people _should_ do, but I can not make anyone do it and I don't want people to feel bad for not doing it, especially when their pets are unwell, such as GoldenShadow's Rupert. Honestly hun, you should follow your vet's advice and research yourself and find your decision.  This thread was not aimed at you at all as I know you love your Rupert and you are doing the best for him.


Oh alright, fair do's! Getting a bit paranoid now  



Amethyst said:


> I don't titre test for the simple reason I would not vaccinate whatever it said.
> 
> My approach is that I keep my dogs as healthy as I can by maintaining a good lifestyle for them and let their immune system do the rest.


See if Rupert's results were particularly low or anything I would consider getting individual vaccines, and depending on what goes around in the local area. But I doubt I would ever give the full course.



DoubleTrouble said:


> When some clever person tells me how to transfer pictures from an old dead computer to this on i'll post some pictures that can only be described as horiffic!(AI related)


Can you get your old PC turned on at all or is it completely dead? If its completely dead I don't know how to


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

grey has allergies to cereals (dunno what one), should he be vaccinated??


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

sid&kira said:


> grey has allergies to cereals (dunno what one), should he be vaccinated??


Allergies aren't considered auto immune to my knowledge, all I know is there is a question mark over vaccinating any dogs with auto immune related problems.

Its up to you, I don't think I would be too worried if you knew the allergy was foody and its not like he reacts to flea/worming treatments or previous vaccinations?


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

GoldenShadow said:


> Allergies aren't considered auto immune to my knowledge, all I know is there is a question mark over vaccinating any dogs with auto immune related problems.
> 
> Its up to you, I don't think I would be too worried if you knew the allergy was foody and its not like he reacts to flea/worming treatments or previous vaccinations?


no flea and worming treatments are fine, and as far as i know his previous vaccs have been ok, though he hasnt had these allergies all his life, so i dunno if they were brought on because of a jab...

this is all so confusing!! lol


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

sid&kira said:


> no flea and worming treatments are fine, and as far as i know his previous vaccs have been ok, though he hasnt had these allergies all his life, so i dunno if they were brought on because of a jab...
> 
> this is all so confusing!! lol


Its hard to know what to do 

Rupert first had ear problems in Summer 2009 and had his puppy shots Oct 2008, but it seemed pollen related so his could have been caused not sure. He had his Oct 2009 boosters and in 2010 his ears were significantly worse than in 2009.

If you are unsure speak to your vet, but be prepared for them to advise giving the booster most do. Because I am in doubt I will titre test to get a vague idea of his immunity (there is some doubt over accuracy over time) and if it was very poor get him some of the individual ones.

Do you know what he was vaccinated with? If it was Nobi Vac they themselves don't recommend boosters every year. My vets do Nobi Vac and say Milo needs them again next year, even though Nobi Vac say different 

Here is info on different brands, click on the letter on the left, then search for the brand your vet uses and click on the panel on the left again to see the different info for it:

NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Datasheets - N

DHPPi is the basic lot (Distempter, hepatitis, parvovirus, para influenza) and Lepto is done separate. Thing that's it off the top of my head...


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I would love to see some statistics that show the actual mortality rates from "over-vaccination" versus the mortality rates from diseases vaccination could have prevented.

I'm sceptical about yearly boosters but not about vaccination as a whole. I do wonder if it is the weakened/dead pathogen that causes the issues or some other substance used to "carry" the pathogen in the vaccine.

I will be questioning my vet closely before Oscar gets yearly boosters as all my knowledge of immunity suggests it is for life unless the pathogen mutates sufficiently for it not to be recognised.

I do however think that the value of herd immunity in both humans and dogs should not be under-estimated and will always be FOR vaccination for the majority (but not for "over-vaccination" before anyone gets upset!). I also think that whoever came up with "homeopathic vaccines" is a sick charlaton who should be shot on sight before anyone mentions those particular crimes against sense and reason.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Rupert first had ear problems in Summer 2009 and had his puppy shots Oct 2008, but it seemed pollen related so his could have been caused not sure. He had his Oct 2009 boosters and in 2010 his ears were significantly worse than in 2009.


Allergic responses do tend to get worse at each exposure so it may be unrelated to vaccines at all? I guess you didn't vaccinate in Oct 2010? It will be interesting to see if he has better ears this summer. (but also remember to check the pollen count as if it is a pollen allergy then you could get a false positive if pollen is low this year).


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

i have no idea, we dont have his vaccs records, just the date they were last done :confused1: which is around summer time. 

I'll probably get it done, and see how he is after it, if he develops any more or this one becomes worse we'll have to have a serious think about doing them yearly...


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> I would love to see some statistics that show the actual mortality rates from "over-vaccination" versus the mortality rates from diseases vaccination could have prevented.
> 
> I'm sceptical about yearly boosters but not about vaccination as a whole. I do wonder if it is the weakened/dead pathogen that causes the issues or some other substance used to "carry" the pathogen in the vaccine.
> 
> ...


I've posted the Spangler link loads of times but I get the feeling people don't always click on it.

Spangler

Vets in my experience will always do their best to convince people to vaccinate annually. I am yet to meet one who says otherwise for a healthy dog (my old vet said different for Rupert but that's because he doesn't class him as 'healthy' so to speak).

Look at it from someone like my view though right, look at this dog:




























He died when he was THREE years old shortly after his booster injections. I can't look at him, read what happened to him and sit here ready to vaccinate my dog every year, when he is just a few months younger, is the same breed and has a variety of problems already. My conscience wont let me do it blindly.

I'm sure the rates of dogs dying from the diseases vaccines prevent against may be higher than those who die from boosters, but people like me are not sat here saying we will never booster, we are saying we want to do the best for our dogs, we are not denying them any level of immunity. Honest to God I am scared to death something like what happened to Spangler will happen to Rupert. I could not live with myself if that happened, I would never, ever forgive myself.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

For those who ardently adhere to the annual boosters have any of you read any of the research carried out by Jean Dodds?

And why - can anyone tell me does it seem that is the US they recommend three yearly boosters whilst here most vets still recommend a year!

Can only be one reason imv! Money & Greed! by the large phamecy companies and the vets cashing in on it!

For anyone interested there is a link the the schedule below - and if you want to read more just google Jean Dodds

Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Allergic responses do tend to get worse at each exposure so it may be unrelated to vaccines at all? I guess you didn't vaccinate in Oct 2010? It will be interesting to see if he has better ears this summer. (but also remember to check the pollen count as if it is a pollen allergy then you could get a false positive if pollen is low this year).


Its no use checking pollen counts etc tbh because we don't know if it is pollen. We tried keeping him off grass, ears were still bad. He's had terrible flair ups in December before too, which lead us to think of dust mites. Re if they are as bad this summer, I'm not letting it get that far. In the process of getting him intradermal skin testing which will produce vaccinations of the substances he is allergic to from Holland to lessen the reaction. I can't have him go through what he did last year.

I'm not saying his allergies getting worse are related to the vaccines, but its a 'they could be' thing. Just like he could not be allergic to anything, but he gets really poorly ears. Here is a photo of last year, on average this happens every six weeks since 10 months old but luckily some of them we can manage so he's only had vet treatment for about 5-6 of them. Here is his left and his right ear at some point last year, the scabs/weeping had been dabbed off as they were pinker before this:


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Arggghhh and I'm _so fed up_ with people telling others what to do with their own dogs. I don't vaccinate my dog, and I don't care who is fed up with it.

There are plenty of things I disagree with, people feeding their animals a soley dry food processed diet springs to mind, but I wouldn't make an entire thread about it, sheesh!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I do puppy vaccs and 1 year booster, keep up with the rabies every 3 yrs per govt law and the region I live in


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Boys will be getting there boosters done in 4 weeks time this could poss be the last yr we do it I'm not 100% I think we need to read alot more in to it 

They are due then Friday but I feel it's 2 close to getting neutered so they are waiting


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

GoldenShadow - I haven't clicked on the Spangler link because it is not a peer reviewed study. It is a website made by someone who is upset that they lost their dog, not an exhaustive enquiry into all the evidence available.

Besides which bit of my post supports annual boosters? In fact I rather suspect I said otherwise. Please read what I have actually written rather than what your guilt-complex scripts want to read.  I can see your point of view and think titre testing is a good way forward for you. However I think you are basing your ideas that "it could be" vaccination on little more than circumstantial evidence and I worry that a down-trend in people vaccinating AT ALL (NOT YEARLY BOOSTERS) because of assumption LIKE this could have terrible negative effects on the canine population as a whole.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

MarKalAm said:


> Arggghhh and I'm _so fed up_ with people telling others what to do with their own dogs. I don't vaccinate my dog, and I don't care who is fed up with it.
> 
> There are plenty of things I disagree with, people feeding their animals a soley dry food processed diet springs to mind, but I wouldn't make an entire thread about it, sheesh!


Other people feeding their dogs dry food does not potentially kill your dog though does it?

Lots of people not vaccinating their dogs increases the risk for EVERYONE'S dogs. I think you are wrong not to vaccinate at all. Both for your dog's sake and the rest of the canine population's sake. Deal with it. I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you I think you are wrong. You can tell me what you think I do wrong with my dog if you like. I will consider your opinion and, if I think you may have a point, take action. Or I will dissagree and take no action. It's just opinions and it's up to you to listen and think or to get angry, your choice.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Other people feeding their dogs dry food does not potentially kill your dog though does it?
> 
> Lots of people not vaccinating their dogs increases the risk for EVERYONE'S dogs. I think you are wrong not to vaccinate at all. Both for your dog's sake and the rest of the canine population's sake. Deal with it. I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you I think you are wrong. You can tell me what you think I do wrong with my dog if you like. I will consider your opinion and, if I think you may have a point, take action. Or I will dissagree and take no action. It's just opinions and it's up to you to listen and think or to get angry, your choice.


this is exactly why I don't like HEALTHY dogs to be unvaccinated. It affects everyone because the diseases will mutate and start affecting vaccinated dogs.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> GoldenShadow - I haven't clicked on the Spangler link because it is not a peer reviewed study. It is a website made by someone who is upset that they lost their dog, not an exhaustive enquiry into all the evidence available.
> 
> Besides which bit of my post supports annual boosters? In fact I rather suspect I said otherwise. *Please read what I have actually written rather than what your guilt-complex scripts want to read.*  I can see your point of view and think titre testing is a good way forward for you. However I think you are basing your ideas that "it could be" vaccination on little more than circumstantial evidence and I worry that a down-trend in people vaccinating AT ALL (NOT YEARLY BOOSTERS) because of assumption LIKE this could have terrible negative effects on the canine population as a whole.


At the end of the day I'm the one who sees my dog every day and what he is like/goes through, I feel boosters could have a significant risk to his health as does my vet, and so it also leads me to question their suitability over all. Especially when research shows 7 years + of vaccinations till giving adequate immunity.

As for the bit in bold, if you don't think I've read your post properly you may be right, I have loads of work to do this afternoon and am just skim reading. But I don't understand what you mean by 'guilt complex scripts'.

Its very rare you have definitive proof for anything in this world, but I'm not going to disregard a website of people's personal experiences when the only other personal resource available to me is my vet, who I have very little trust in.

I hope you never have a dog like mine or those on the completely biased due to being from personal experience websites. Its not fun, I can tell you. 

ETA: when you think about it, the only 'studies' people take seriously are those written by vets. It would be interesting to see if you have read the links Double Trouble has put up from Dr Jean Dodds, she is one of the few who writes papers and researches a lot into the effects of vaccines on a dog/their auto immune system. But I get the impression those links do not get read a lot of the time either.

You will *always* find people's personal experiences affect what they write about and hence articles often are written by those who's dogs have had issues in certain areas, but you will seldom find much written by a UK vet against annual boosters and it seems sadly that often information is skipped over.

http://www.dfordog.co.uk/didyouknow_vaccinations.htm


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

I think if there is a medical or breed reason to not vaccinate then that is fine, but if there is no real reason to not vaccinate then i think it is a good idea to, this helps protect your dog and those others that cant be vaccinated for any reason.

It is the same kind of thing with children, some children because of their own or their parents medical history cant have vaccinations, but they benefit because a high proportion of other healthy children are vaccinated, and it has been proven over the years that a decline in general in vaccination programs does lead to areas of outbreak, which then affects the children that cant be done.

I have no reason at present to believe there is any medical reason to stop me having my dogs vaccinated so i will have them done this year (first boosters after puppy vacs), unless I am given any medical or vets advice to the contrary.

While they can tolerate the jabs then it might help prevent other unvaccinated dogs having a problem. To generalise that all dogs should or shouldn't be vaccinated is not the answer.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

By guilt-complex scripts I mean that you seem to be taking everything on this thread very personally as you seem to WANT to feel guilty about not vaccinating your dog. A script is something going on in your head that you bend every event in front of you to fit even if it doesn't quite do so. I have guilt scripts so I often read things as an attack even when they are not.

We all have scripts, they are given to us by our upbringings generally. Read up on transactional analysis if you want to know more.

Frankly I would trust my vet on a medical issue more than annecdotes on the internet. I'm sure that actually believing in scientific evidence makes me hopelessly un-cool and naive though.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> By guilt-complex scripts I mean that you seem to be taking everything on this thread very personally as you seem to WANT to feel guilty about not vaccinating your dog. A script is something going on in your head that you bend every event in front of you to fit even if it doesn't quite do so. I have guilt scripts so I often read things as an attack even when they are not.
> 
> We all have scripts, they are given to us by our upbringings generally. Read up on transactional analysis if you want to know more.
> 
> Frankly I would trust my vet on a medical issue more than annecdotes on the internet. I'm sure that actually believing in scientific evidence makes me hopelessly un-cool and naive though.


Yes but you have that option don't you? My vet wanted to booster Rupert when he had an ear infection, and he is that scared of her that he now wees himself when she comes near him, so I don't really feel much like trusting her opinion if she so easily has this effect on my dog. Just that of my old vet who has not seen Rupert in months.

Vets are not always 100% right, I would think it is surely sensible to consider other thoughts/opinions and not just go along with a vet and what they think? Whilst educated about animals they do not know the ins and outs of your dog as a whole and I do not think it is sensible to consider what they say medically as gospel, there are so many people on here who have vets who have told them something which they have later found out was detrimental to their pet.

SO many vets sit there and flog Hills Science Plan and Royal Canin which are full of maize which is a known allergen to dogs. I sure as heck wouldn't take their advice on a dietary issue, and it'd make me question their opinion elsewhere too.

Why would I want to feel guilty about not vaccinating? Of course I don't WANT to, but with the kind of PMs I've had and things that are being said on this thread, I actually think it is very easy for someone in my situation to feel as I do. Its hard enough to come to a decision about what I want to do, but when other people challenge this the whole cycle begins all over again and its a right royal pain in the arse to be honest, it means nothing gets done for Rupert and he sits here even longer without vaccinations or titre tests.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

GoldenShadow said:


> Yes but you have that option don't you? My vet wanted to booster Rupert when he had an ear infection, and he is that scared of her that he now wees himself when she comes near him, so I don't really feel much like trusting her opinion if she so easily has this effect on my dog. Just that of my old vet who has not seen Rupert in months.
> 
> Vets are not always 100% right, I would think it is surely sensible to consider other thoughts/opinions and not just go along with a vet and what they think? Whilst educated about animals they do not know the ins and outs of your dog as a whole and I do not think it is sensible to consider what they say medically as gospel, there are so many people on here who have vets who have told them something which they have later found out was detrimental to their pet.
> 
> Why would I want to feel guilty about not vaccinating? Of course I don't WANT to, but with the kind of PMs I've had and things that are being said on this thread, I actually think it is very easy for someone in my situation to feel as I do. Its hard enough to come to a decision about what I want to do, but when other people challenge this the whole cycle begins all over again and its a right royal pain in the arse to be honest, it means nothing gets done for Rupert and he sits here even longer without vaccinations or titre tests.


I'm sorry you feel like this. Have you thought about going to see another vet who you can gain trust with? I feel that you need to trust your vet 100%, otherwise you do end up confused and worried.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> GoldenShadow - I haven't clicked on the Spangler link because it is not a peer reviewed study. It is a website made by someone who is upset that they lost their dog, not an exhaustive enquiry into all the evidence available.


This sums up the problem pretty well. Two anecdotes don't add up to a piece of research, and the "evidence" for vaccination being dangerous doesn't come from reliably conducted research, it's from personal experience. That doesn't give a reliable picture of the risks and benefits. If you're going to disregard expert opinion, you need a good understanding of how research works to weigh up the risks, and most people don't. I've got just about enough understanding to know I don't have the capacity to perform my own systematic review of the studies out there, so I go with the most informed opinion available to me - my vet.
I can't tell anyone what to do with their own dog, wouldn't presume to, but when their actions have the potential to allow the spread of diseases that could harm my dogs, I'm not going to pretend that this is a choice that has no impact on others. If you don't vaccinate a healthy dog you should be thanking people like me, because we're the reason your pet hasn't been exposed to life-threatening diseases.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> this is exactly why I don't like HEALTHY dogs to be unvaccinated. It affects everyone because the diseases will mutate and start affecting vaccinated dogs.


So because there is a chance it may at some point effect you, you want people who strongly disagree with vaccinations and who's dogs have suffered after vaccinations in the past to start dangering their dogs lives? That would make you less fed up?

How many times has your dog become ill from a non vaccinated dog? I should imagine it's a few? Now try asking someone who's dog has died following a vaccination how fed up they are.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'm sorry you feel like this. Have you thought about going to see another vet who you can gain trust with? I feel that you need to trust your vet 100%, otherwise you do end up confused and worried.


I'm trying to find one but no luck yet  Been to two down here, they seem to have a real lack of patience for him so far. Rupert has been to the vet 27 times in his life, he doesn't bite but he is a bit nervy and then gets giddy and a bit jumpy/wriggly and so when they grab him by the collar he wriggles away, lies down and wees all over himself/the floor and stays routed to the spot so that no one can see he's weed because he obviously thinks its bad, so then they tell him off. Sometimes he sits squashed in a corner trying to get out. He doesn't bite if they touch him he just wees more and sinks to the ground  I told her to sod off when she was telling him off but I think he picks up on body language too. I really liked this vets but she seemed to have an off day and took it out on him, it has sent Rupert back hugely as he did pee a bit at our old vets but got over it. He's massively sensitive, if you tell him off for something he acts like he's no bothered, but if he does something like this morning he climbed over the bottom of a bed onto this table and knocked off picture frames/a laptop and he was so mortified with himself, he's never even been to harshly told off but I think he has his own thoughts on what is bad and what isn't...Like he knows when harm has been done or suspects when it has.

People I've spoke to so far have recommended the practise we go to, but it has four or five branches and so I might try another branch a bit further out. Other than that it looks like Companion Care at Pets At Home to be honest.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> So because there is a chance it may at some point effect you, you want people who strongly disagree with vaccinations and who's dogs have suffered after vaccinations in the past to start dangering their dogs lives? That would make you less fed up?
> 
> How many times has your dog become ill from a non vaccinated dog? I should imagine it's a few? Now try asking someone who's dog has died following a vaccination how fed up they are.


But this is what will happen in the future if more and more people do not vaccinate their healthy dogs.

Remember the MMR vaccine. People didn't vaccinate their children, they saw the diseases start to come back which previously they were unheard of. Now, more parents are vaccinating so those diseases are becoming non-existent again.

If your dog has had a problem with vaccines in the past, then the vet should be able to advise you on that. I'm not saying unhealthy dogs should be vaccinated or dogs who have a reaction to vaccines, I'm saying healthy dogs should be vaccinated as a matter of course.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

myshkin said:


> This sums up the problem pretty well. Two anecdotes don't add up to a piece of research, and the "evidence" for vaccination being dangerous doesn't come from reliably conducted research, it's from personal experience. That doesn't give a reliable picture of the risks and benefits. If you're going to disregard expert opinion, you need a good understanding of how research works to weigh up the risks, and most people don't. I've got just about enough understanding to know I don't have the capacity to perform my own systematic review of the studies out there, so I go with the most informed opinion available to me - my vet.
> I can't tell anyone what to do with their own dog, wouldn't presume to, but when their actions have the potential to allow the spread of diseases that could harm my dogs, I'm not going to pretend that this is a choice that has no impact on others. If you don't vaccinate a healthy dog you should be thanking people like me, because we're the reason your pet hasn't been exposed to life-threatening diseases.


Well I also go by what Dr Jean Dodds thinks. She's more than qualified. The Spangler link is an example of personal experience and I feel it is important to learn of such things. I don't disregard information because it happened to somebody, naturally you take it with a slight (some times bigger) pinch of salt in cases, but I do not believe it warrants being totally disregarded.

People who do studies are very often vets, anyone will be hard pushed to find a vet who says hey, don't give me £50 every year to booster your dog, its not necessarily right for them.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> People who do studies are very often vets, anyone will be hard pushed to find a vet who says hey, don't give me £50 every year to booster your dog, its not necessarily right for them.


Yeah, vets working for the big drug companies producing vaccines


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Personally from what I've read and what my own vet recommends (who I trust implicitly as he doesn't push anything and treats you like you can think for yourself!) I vaccinate Lepto yearly and the others every three years. 

But I would never not vaccinate my dogs at all if they didn't have any underlying health problems or previous reactions to vaccines. This is because herd immunity protects those dogs that cannot be vaccinated and is very important for eradicating diseases from populations.

If I were in GoldenShadow's place I wouldn't vaccinate my dog as it could quite possibly aggravate whatever Rupert's underlying condition is. I also think we should be sure that our dogs are not ill before they have their initial vaccinations and then their boosters - vets should also be more open to discussing why they think vaccination schedules should be whatever they are recommending.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> Well I also go by what Dr Jean Dodds thinks. She's more than qualified.


Yes, this woman is brilliant. I read a tonn of her stuff when researching hypothyroidism.

Some people will always do whatever their vet tells them without doing their own research. This can be very dangerous in my opinion, and I will never go soley on advice given by one vet. 'Your vet will advise you on whether to vaccinate', oh I bet, can I have some Hills to while I'm at it. 

The can, and _do_ get it wrong.

So, vaccinators, why not titer test to see if a vaccine is needed?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Well I also go by what Dr Jean Dodds thinks. She's more than qualified. The Spangler link is an example of personal experience and I feel it is important to learn of such things. I don't disregard information because it happened to somebody, naturally you take it with a slight (some times bigger) pinch of salt in cases, but I do not believe it warrants being totally disregarded.
> 
> People who do studies are very often vets, anyone will be hard pushed to find a vet who says hey, don't give me £50 every year to booster your dog, its not necessarily right for them.


Nobody here has criticised your decision, no-one is suggesting that dogs with compromised immune systems should be vaccinated. In fact one of the main points of my argument in this is that vaccination of the majority prevents the spread of disease to those dogs, like yours, that have health problems which mean that they can't be vaccinated.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

MarKalAm said:


> So, vaccinators, why not titer test to see if a vaccine is needed?


I'm going to do this with Ely as although he was boostered by the rescue we have no real detail on his vaccination history as he came from the flapping tracks.

If I had any concerns about my dogs health I would definitely titre test to check levels of immunity and I think this is just as responsible as vaccinating if you are willing to booster if your dog is shown to have a low level of antibodies.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

There is quite some debate as to how accurate and meaningful titre testing is, but vets will do it for a fee of course.

This is an interesting article to maybe begin your research if interested.

Titers and Canine Vaccination Decisions


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> There is quite some debate as to how accurate and meaningful titre testing is, but vets will do it for a fee of course.
> 
> This is an interesting article to maybe begin your research if interested.
> 
> Titers and Canine Vaccination Decisions


Sigh....try again. It's not research. It's the opinion of a hobbyist who's also a journalist. She hasn't done a study, she hasn't collected data or been submitted to peer review to see the reliability of her claims and the evidence for them. She's probably very well informed, but it isn't research.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Sigh....try again. It's not research. It's the opinion of a hobbyist who's also a journalist. She hasn't done a study, she hasn't collected data or been submitted to peer review to see the reliability of her claims and the evidence for them. She's probably very well informed, but it isn't research.


It seems pretty well researched to me 

Anyway, as I said, regardless, I wouldn't vacccinate


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

The trouble with vaccinations excluding personal preferences is that there is so much conflicting advice these days.

Years ago people would just listen to their vets, but the internet has made information accessible in the form of forums and research data etc....so people suddenly start to question.

Then sometimes you can feel overloaded with all this info and are at a loss as what to do for the best 

It the same with neutering too.

At the end of the day we all want the best for our pets


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The reasons I vaccinate are based on talks with immunologists not vets. So the logic that I'm blindly following my vets orders is a bit wrong in my case.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> The reasons I vaccinate are based on talks with immunologists not vets. So the logic that I'm blindly following my vets orders is a bit wrong in my case.


It doesn't matter who you are basing your decisions on, it's your shout


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Exactly if you feel that vaccines are evil and you wouldn't put them in your dog that's your choice and IMO you shouldn't be criticised for it as long as your animals are healthy.

But put it this way. When the WHO went to eradicate smallpox, biggest killer of the time, did they titre test/use tiny bits of poison diluted in loads of saline. No they went around and wherever there was an outbreak they vaccinated everyone in the area. The result no natural cases of smallpox. However that was an unique case as it's only host was humans so it couldn't go into any other species


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Vaccination saves lives, as we all know but just don't do it blindly. I had a tetanus injection last year and don't need another for the next ten, same with some vacs, they're not needed too often.

I don't trust vets tbh and rather research for myself and make my own decisions but each to their own, i'd never criticise anyone for feeling differently though!


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## archiesmum (Aug 28, 2010)

I will always have my dogs vaccinated after seeing Archie nearly die at the age of 8 weeks with parvo. Archie had his first vacs but still got parvo and was a very sick puppy but with the care and dedication from all the vets and nurses he survived. I was told that it was lucky that I knew that symptoms of parvo and he was diagnosed fairly early.

This is just my opinion and I would not judge anyone if they decided not to. I do think that puppies should be vacinated but after that it is up to the owner.

Val xx


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Def vaccinate puppies :thumbup: I was googling parvo today and it's pups that are most at risk of dying, so have always had them done and the first booster.

What surprises me is that when I was a kid we had a dog who lived to 16 and many dogs after him, my aunts & uncles had dogs and I don't remember any of them dying from an illness, just old age and the dogs used to roam free and come home at night - talking London here. They didn't used to vaccinate but always bought a licence.
Were there dieases then? Surely there must have been and there were always dogs roaming the street, not fighting either!

I'm not talking about the dark ages btw  just late fifties, early sixties.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> It seems pretty well researched to me
> 
> Anyway, as I said, regardless, I wouldn't vacccinate


You don't have to. But thanks for the perfect illustration of my earlier assertion that most people don't understand research


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I end up coming on here of late and feeling very much like I do when I contact my vets. Like I'm seen as a neurotic owner and no one takes me seriously because of that. In actual fact I don't just take things as they go probably because I've got a dog with problems, but it doesn't make my opinions any less valid or worthy of being heard.

Whichever bored and most likely lonely person has bothered to stalk my profile on here, find my Facebook profile and sent me messages, why are you bothering, seriously? I don't care, I can't be bothered and surely its a lot of effort to start up a fake Facebook profile just to contact me on? Oh well, don't come knocking on my door else you might catch parvo or something else nasty from my dogs


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I vaccinate but not every year


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I end up coming on here of late and feeling very much like I do when I contact my vets. Like I'm seen as a neurotic owner and no one takes me seriously because of that. In actual fact I don't just take things as they go probably because I've got a dog with problems, but it doesn't make my opinions any less valid or worthy of being heard.
> 
> Whichever bored and most likely lonely person has bothered to stalk my profile on here, find my Facebook profile and sent me messages, why are you bothering, seriously? I don't care, I can't be bothered and surely its a lot of effort to start up a fake Facebook profile just to contact me on? Oh well, don't come knocking on my door else you might catch parvo or something else nasty from my dogs


That's horrible! FWIW I think you've made the right decision for Rupert, he's obviously got an underlying condition which might be auto immune and you've clearly researched it and thought about it.

Ignore the idiots - they need to get a life! I mean who can be bothered to do all that? :confused1:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Whichever bored and most likely lonely person has bothered to stalk my profile on here, find my Facebook profile and sent me messages, why are you bothering, seriously? I don't care, I can't be bothered and surely its a lot of effort to start up a fake Facebook profile just to contact me on? Oh well, don't come knocking on my door else you might catch parvo or something else nasty from my dogs


That's awful. No wonder you feel defensive. A difference of opinion is part of life, what you're describing is kind of sick. I guess you've barred them on FB, which is why they've made a fake profile? Sad and sick


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

L/C said:


> That's horrible! FWIW I think you've made the right decision for Rupert, he's obviously got an underlying condition which might be auto immune and you've clearly researched it and thought about it.
> 
> Ignore the idiots - they need to get a life! I mean who can be bothered to do all that? :confused1:





myshkin said:


> That's awful. No wonder you feel defensive. A difference of opinion is part of life, what you're describing is kind of sick. I guess you've barred them on FB, which is why they've made a fake profile? Sad and sick


Someone did it once last year I think it was, knew who that was and it made me care more about who I let search for me and message me on Facebook but I'm beyond caring now.

I expect its the person who sent me PM's on here, but their account had existed only this month so looks like its probably someone who I do know and they're posting/messaging under other accounts so I don't know its them  I had someone else PM but it wasn't quite so derogatory..!

I was asking on threads this week about what people thought I should do with Rupert, but I thought I'd made it clear now I have made my mind up yet someone is doing their best to harass me on Facebook, unlucky for them Facebook isn't working properly for me right now anyway so I can't see what they are writing now :lol:


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Why would anyone do that?

Can I just make it clear that I do not think that YOU have done anything wrong?  I think you are taking some posts on here a little too personally but if people are being rediculous like that then I don't blame you for being a bit sensitive.

The funny thing about this thread is that everyone is saying pretty much the same thing but it looks like an argument. :lol:


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Why would anyone do that?
> 
> Can I just make it clear that I do not think that YOU have done anything wrong?  I think you are taking some posts on here a little too personally but if people are being rediculous like that then I don't blame you for being a bit sensitive.
> 
> The funny thing about this thread is that everyone is saying pretty much the same thing but it looks like an argument. :lol:


TBH its hard not to take posts on here personally when for the first time I'm actually not sure who it is who is messaging me on Facebook. It could be someone who has posted on this thread or it could be someone who has just read it and decided to try and rain on my parade. Too bad, 'cos I like rain


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That's awful no one should be doing that.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> TBH its hard not to take posts on here personally when for the first time I'm actually not sure who it is who is messaging me on Facebook. It could be someone who has posted on this thread or it could be someone who has just read it and decided to try and rain on my parade. Too bad, 'cos I like rain


That's the most poisonous thing about this sort of behaviour - it has you wondering about everyone, naturally. Very cowardly, and as you said, most likely lonely. I've got to be honest, I'm really cagey about personal details and what's visible on FB for fear of just this sort of thing. Block, block and block some more - if they don't get the message they'll hopefully give themselves away.


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Blimey, some people will do anything to intimidate others, no matter whether or not i agreed with someone, they need to get a life to go to so much trouble!


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'm sick to death of hearing about people not vaccinating their dogs.
> 
> Vaccination is SO important. It is vital to prevent deadly diseases.


I'm sick of people telling me that I must inject my dog unnecessarily with chemicals.

You are being fooled by the pharmaceutical industry which makes billions every year and works with the veterinary industry which also makes a lot of money from it. If you don't think vets would sell you something that ins't good for your pet, then please answer why they all recommend and sell Hills' Science diet food?

If you believe drugs are completely safe, then tell me why governments recommend one vaccine for the public and order another version for themselves?

Government to get special swine flu vaccine - The Local


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Road_Hog said:


> I'm sick of people telling me that I must inject my dog unnecessarily with chemicals.
> 
> You are being fooled by the pharmaceutical industry which makes billions every year and works with the veterinary industry which also makes a lot of money from it. If you don't think vets would sell you something that ins't good for your pet, then please answer why they all recommend and sell Hills' Science diet food?
> 
> ...


so you think that vaccinations are completely pointless and without them, we would be entirely healthy and these deadly diseases don't exist? 

I'm aware about over vaccination and dogs that shouldn't be vaccinated for health reasons, however healthly dogs should be vaccinated to prevent these diseases coming back and to protect the dogs that can not be vaccinated.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> so you think that vaccinations are completely pointless and without them, we would be entirely healthy and these deadly diseases don't exist?
> 
> I'm aware about over vaccination and dogs that shouldn't be vaccinated for health reasons, however healthly dogs should be vaccinated to prevent these diseases coming back and to protect the dogs that can not be vaccinated.


No see all those diseases the vaccine companies just made them up to make money they never existed. We're all gullible and fall for every lie vets throw at us because we don't believe some crackpot conspiracy theory that it's all a ploy to make money. Rabies, distemper, parvo they never existed all those stories the drug companies wrote them they're taking over the world you see


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> No see all those diseases the vaccine companies just made them up to make money they never existed. We're all gullible and fall for every lie vets throw at us because we don't believe some crackpot conspiracy theory that it's all a ploy to make money. Rabies, distemper, parvo they never existed all those stories the drug companies wrote them they're taking over the world you see


My dogs are vaccinated because my vet is part of a conspiracy started by the German government.....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes clearly see all you have to do is titre test maybe inject them with tiny amount of poison that's hugely diluted or feed them a balanced diet and no dog will ever be sick. Those evil drug companies they just want to take your money and make your dogs sick :scared:


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I actually think titre testing is quite a valuable resource for people like myself who are concerned about vaccinating...It shows the dog's current immunity via memory cells which don't just disappear and die, hence the term memory, it measures the lowest amount of immunity they possibly have. Its not just random guesswork.

I think a lot of vets do just want to take our money. Otherwise, why do my vets recommend boostering annually when the manufacturers say the full lot only every 3? My vets themselves have said we they haven't seen a case of confirmed parvo in six years (that's the longest the vet has been there). Other vet said in 15 years he hasn't seen any, yet they still insist on doing it annually.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I was told it wasn't very reliable for a lot of illnesses and yes not by my evil vet who is clearly deeply involved in the whole conspiracy.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I was told it wasn't very reliable for a lot of illnesses and yes not by my evil vet who is clearly deeply involved in the whole conspiracy.


Where have I dissed your vet at all 

So because you were told titre testing isn't reliable you automatically believe it? Now it looks like lots of people aren't looking into proper 'research' to form judgements.

Titre testing is the best way to check your dog's immunity. Personally I do think its foolish to just vaccinate year on year when your dog may not need it. Three yearly I understand more, but I do not understand people who vaccinate every single year when guidelines state otherwise unless they have titred to show their dog actually needs it. If you inject a vaccine into a dog who has a high level of immunity, most of the time their body just kills off the vaccine anyway, its a wasted £50. In other dogs, they can be more likely to have a reaction if they are sensitive to any of the ingredients introduced in the vaccine. Seems pointless to me if their immunity is high or the manufacturer says you're doing it too soon.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

GoldenShadow said:


> Personally I do think its foolish to just vaccinate year on year when your dog may not need it. Three yearly I understand more, but I do not understand people who vaccinate every single year when guidelines state otherwise unless they have titred to show their dog actually needs it.


But if your vet uses a rota of Lepto yearly and full course every three years, this prevents over vaccination because Lepto is needed every year so most dogs should be being vaccinated yearly for Lepto and the rest every 3 years.

Some vets don't care about animals and are just in it for money, however I'm of the belief that most vets care deeply about animals and want to do everything they can to ensure their health and well being, and this includes vaccinating wisely (using the rota).


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> But if your vet uses a rota of Lepto yearly and full course every three years, this prevents over vaccination because Lepto is needed every year so most dogs should be being vaccinated yearly for Lepto and the rest every 3 years.
> 
> Some vets don't care about animals and are just in it for money, however I'm of the belief that most vets care deeply about animals and want to do everything they can to ensure their health and well being, and this includes vaccinating wisely (using the rota).


If you see I did state unless doing it by manufacturer's guidelines 

I know many people who vaccinate on the year every year when the manufacturer says do it every three, and I just think its daft/introducing risks that otherwise wouldn't be present if they followed the manufacturer's guidelines. No manufacturer will state the full course every three years is enough if there is any chance it isn't, its more than their life is worth! When I say full course every three years I literally mean that, lepto every year/6 months is a given but I do not understand why a lot get the full whack done against the manufacturer's guidelines


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I vaccinate every three years, lepto every year. No wait lepto so totally like never existed it must be some kind of drug reaction so the companies can claim it's lepto and foolish gulible idiots will give them money to vaccinate against a disease that doesn't exist


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I vaccinate every three years, lepto every year. No wait lepto so totally like never existed it must be some kind of drug reaction so the companies can claim it's lepto and foolish gulible idiots will give them money to vaccinate against a disease that doesn't exist


Who are you aiming your posts at? Seeing as you have responded to my last posts I can only assume it is me.

I have never stated anything like you are saying and to be honest I think its quite insulting you feel the need to type such shite when its obvious I'm incredibly concerned about my dog's wellbeing.

Maybe I've found out who the Facebook messager is 

I hope you never have a dog with problems like mine, or that you never come across a vet who does more harm to your dog than good.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Def vaccinate puppies :thumbup: I was googling parvo today and it's pups that are most at risk of dying, so have always had them done and the first booster.
> 
> What surprises me is that when I was a kid we had a dog who lived to 16 and many dogs after him, my aunts & uncles had dogs and I don't remember any of them dying from an illness, just old age and the dogs used to roam free and come home at night - talking London here. They didn't used to vaccinate but always bought a licence.
> Were there dieases then? Surely there must have been and there were always dogs roaming the street, not fighting either!
> ...


Parvo didnt exist until the 70s. I think I am right in saying it was a mutation from the feline enteritis virus and in fact the feline enteritis vaccine was used until a dog specific one was produced. Distemper did exist and a lot of dogs died but those that didnt presumably had enough immunity from their mother until they started meeting it themselves and building up their own immunity - so some dogs died and some self vaccinated. Because it is so rare now it is less likely that dogs will build up their own immunity but of course it also means that there is not dogs dying from it every day.

As a matter of interest puppies were never vaccinated before 12 weeks and those that were likely to be at risk before then were given the human measles vaccine so distemper and measles are related viruses!



GoldenShadow said:


> I actually think titre testing is quite a valuable resource for people like myself who are concerned about vaccinating...It shows the dog's current immunity via memory cells which don't just disappear and die, hence the term memory, it measures the lowest amount of immunity they possibly have. Its not just random guesswork.
> 
> I think a lot of vets do just want to take our money. Otherwise, why do my vets recommend boostering annually when the manufacturers say the full lot only every 3? My vets themselves have said we they haven't seen a case of confirmed parvo in six years (that's the longest the vet has been there). Other vet said in 15 years he hasn't seen any, yet they still insist on doing it annually.


I agree that if you have a dog with a health problem you MIGHT choose to risk it getting ill from one of the diseases - it is a choice you have to make yourself. I know very little about titre testing but the way I see it (and could be wrong) it is giving the current state of antibodies but there is not guarantee how long that immunity will be there. I have been involved in testing cattle for BVD and initially it was thought that antibodies in a cow meant life long immunity but it has been discovered (through older cows having infected calves) that this isnt true. They are vaccinated every year because that is how long the vaccine lasts, not because the drug company wants the money!

As far as dogs being vaccinated every year - I would rather that than they die but I think most drug companies, therefore most vets, have started to recommend lepto every year (as that truly does not last long) and the others every 3 years. And of course the reason a lot of vets dont see parvo any more is because they are working in an area where nearly all the dogs are vaccinated. Stop vaccinating and parvo will be back with a vengeance as it is still around on puppy farms etc - though of course the vets might not ever see these cases as they will just die and be disposed of.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> But if your vet uses a rota of Lepto yearly and full course every three years, this prevents over vaccination because Lepto is needed every year so most dogs should be being vaccinated yearly for Lepto and the rest every 3 years.
> 
> Some vets don't care about animals and are just in it for money, however I'm of the belief that most vets care deeply about animals and want to do everything they can to ensure their health and well being, and this includes vaccinating wisely (using the rota).


i do believe it is everyones personal choice but if most vets want to ensure our pets health and well being, if they were to suceed the vet would soon be out of a job, there would be no more sick animals for him to look after only do the yearly injections on all the healthy dogs:lol:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

GoldenShadow said:


> If you see I did state unless doing it by manufacturer's guidelines
> 
> I know many people who vaccinate on the year every year when the manufacturer says do it every three, and I just think its daft/introducing risks that otherwise wouldn't be present if they followed the manufacturer's guidelines. No manufacturer will state the full course every three years is enough if there is any chance it isn't, its more than their life is worth! When I say full course every three years I literally mean that, lepto every year/6 months is a given but I do not understand why a lot get the full whack done against the manufacturer's guidelines


I agree that some vets still do all the vaccines every year and the rota vaccines should be more widespread. I think all vets need to do the rota but what can we do as individuals apart from go to a vet that does the rota at present?

However, this still all means that vaccination is very important and it needs to be done. If we stop vaccinating, these diseases will return and be more prevalent too, risking vaccinated dogs as well as the unvaccinated dogs. For the dogs that can not be vaccinated for health reasons, they would be at a huge risk if people with healthy dogs didn't vaccinate properly.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

If you feel that they're making Rupert sick or making him worse then fair enough it's your choice.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> i do believe it is everyones personal choice but if most vets want to ensure our pets health and well being, if they were to suceed the vet would soon be out of a job, there would be no more sick animals for him to look after only do the yearly injections on all the healthy dogs:lol:


I don't agree with that. I trust my vet 100% with my dog, and they wouldn't give medicine or more vaccines than he needed. They get most of their money from consultation fees which are very high but I don't mind as long as Ollie gets good treatment.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Stop vaccinating and parvo will be back with a vengeance as it is still around on puppy farms etc - though of course the vets might not ever see these cases as they will just die and be disposed of.


Exactly!!!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I agree that if you have a dog with a health problem you MIGHT choose to risk it getting ill from one of the diseases - it is a choice you have to make yourself. I know very little about titre testing but the way I see it (and could be wrong) it is giving the current state of antibodies but there is not guarantee how long that immunity will be there. I have been involved in testing cattle for BVD and initially it was thought that antibodies in a cow meant life long immunity but it has been discovered (through older cows having infected calves) that this isnt true. They are vaccinated every year because that is how long the vaccine lasts, not because the drug company wants the money!
> 
> As far as dogs being vaccinated every year - I would rather that than they die but I think most drug companies, therefore most vets, have started to recommend lepto every year (as that truly does not last long) and the others every 3 years. And of course the reason a lot of vets dont see parvo any more is because they are working in an area where nearly all the dogs are vaccinated. Stop vaccinating and parvo will be back with a vengeance as it is still around on puppy farms etc - though of course the vets might not ever see these cases as they will just die and be disposed of.


Out of the two vets I have been to down here, both use Nobi Vac who say do the full lot every three years, but both vets recommend the full lot every year, so that's what I'm basing my opinion on. Where I lived before the vet recommended the full lot every year, but they used Eurican who recommend this also, hence at least it matched up with the guidelines but my vets are unable to answer why they feel the need to recommend them every year when Nobi Vac say otherwise.

From what I have read/been told by my old vet titre testing doesn't just test the antibodies in the blood but memory cells which, when come into contact with a pathogen multiply out and so the memory cells for those diseases demonstrate the very lowest level of immunity the dog has. It is easier to test for some than others, I think its particularly good for distemper but it isn't a bad guideline if you get it done regularly, I think its less useful if you get it done around the time vaccines are meant to run out or if you leave wide spaces in between when you get it done. Vets who have done a few titres can usually advise on the best time to test again and if/how they expect the results to change which is a good guideline.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't agree with that. I trust my vet 100% with my dog, and they wouldn't give medicine or more vaccines than he needed. They get most of their money from consultation fees which are very high but I don't mind as long as Ollie gets good treatment.


it was said more in jest than anything else of course that will never happen and i am glad you have a good vet, so do i. but there are a lot of vets that do go over the top with prices and medication my vet told me that if i have the first vaccine done on my puppies and then the new owner takes the puppy to his/her own vet and they are not using the same vaccine, the other vet will more than likely want to give the puppy the whole course again ,so the little pup ends up having 3 injections instead of 2.for this reason i have always let my puppys go without injections ( but refunded the price back to the new owner) rather than the puppy have 3 my vet has assured me that the vaccine is so widely used it and probably the same vaccine under a different name that it would be fine to have just the second one done at the new owners vets but that he doubted most of the new vets would do that?????????


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I agree that some vets still do all the vaccines every year and the rota vaccines should be more widespread. I think all vets need to do the rota but what can we do as individuals apart from go to a vet that does the rota at present?
> 
> However, this still all means that vaccination is very important and it needs to be done. If we stop vaccinating, these diseases will return and be more prevalent too, risking vaccinated dogs as well as the unvaccinated dogs. For the dogs that can not be vaccinated for health reasons, they would be at a huge risk if people with healthy dogs didn't vaccinate properly.


But to me, this is like saying 'puppy farming will always happen, so what can we do about it except not buy from them'? and I am sure many on here think that is the least we can do, and spread the word about the rest of the info. I hope by seeing this thread some people will ask their vet who the vaccine they use is made by, and consider going my the manufacturer's guidelines unless the vet has a significant reason to suggest otherwise.



SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't agree with that. I trust my vet 100% with my dog, and they wouldn't give medicine or more vaccines than he needed. They get most of their money from consultation fees which are very high but I don't mind as long as Ollie gets good treatment.


I thought this with my old vets, but we've just had rotten luck down here so far. I got given Rimadyl 100mg tablets for Rupes last ear infection, they are a pain killer and many people on this group I am on (people are very knowledgable and all have a sick dog) say they would rather have him on Metacam and that the drug is used post operatively usually and it seems over the top to give it as a pain killer for an ear infection, think we had about 7 days worth of it too, Milo only had three of them after he had his canine tooth out and got neutered.

Someone on here also told me about a gel my vets gave me, they told me to literally smother his hotspot and I found out on humans you really can't use that much its considered bad and the gel is a lot stronger than I was lead to believe, tbh it didn't seem to be helping so I stopped putting it on and it healed up straight away. I don't just listen to someone I ring up and ask my vets if someone puts doubt in my mind but even one of the nurses didn't know why Rupert was given so much Rimadyl, just fills me with more doubt 

But then again, my vets had to sedate Rupert to draw blood, right? So he was completely out of it, and they still managed to graze his skin, turn it into a hotspot and have the audacity to charge me nearly £40 to sort it out when it was their fault for clipping to close to his skin and causing the clipper rash. Think it sums them up right now really, and they gave me the huge tube of gel when I could have had a smaller one at half the price, in the days I used the gel we didn't even get 1/4 through the tube.

I am in a grumbly mood today, I really liked those vets but things have gone from bad to worse! I've found a couple dermatologists now, two I need referrals for, the other is my old vet but he just has a certificate and isn't a specialist. Not going to ditch current vets just yet in case new one wont do me a referral straight away (they might want to 'see' the problem and I am sure they can refuse to refer if they want to) because I'm quite confident where I am now will just refer us at least.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> it was said more in jest than anything else of course that will never happen and i am glad you have a good vet, so do i. but there are a lot of vets that do go over the top with prices and medication my vet told me that if i have the first vaccine done on my puppies and then the new owner takes the puppy to his/her own vet and they are not using the same vaccine, the other vet will more than likely want to give the puppy the whole course again ,so the little pup ends up having 3 injections instead of 2.for this reason i have always let my puppys go without injections ( but refunded the price back to the new owner) rather than the puppy have 3 my vet has assured me that the vaccine is so widely used it and probably the same vaccine under a different name that it would be fine to have just the second one done at the new owners vets but that he doubted most of the new vets would do that?????????


Rupert's breeder was the same, sent them to new homes without any vaccinations in case the vets people went to used a different brand yada yada. You'd think they'd be able to get hold of the one the pup has already had and needs or something, even if it was a bit more expensive..!

Rupert was done with Eurican who aren't well known, they recommend the second injection 3-5 weeks after the first and I think most are something like 2 weeks after the first so I can see how it could be a little skewed as to if the pup is covered, but it is pants


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> Rupert's breeder was the same, sent them to new homes without any vaccinations in case the vets people went to used a different brand yada yada. You'd think they'd be able to get hold of the one the pup has already had and needs or something, even if it was a bit more expensive..!
> 
> Rupert was done with Eurican who aren't well known, they recommend the second injection 3-5 weeks after the first and I think most are something like 2 weeks after the first so I can see how it could be a little skewed as to if the pup is covered, but it is pants


its really not that hard to order the same vaccine although it probably is the same with a different name but then they could only charge for one vaccine not the whole course


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Who are you aiming your posts at? Seeing as you have responded to my last posts I can only assume it is me.
> 
> I have never stated anything like you are saying and to be honest I think its quite insulting you feel the need to type such shite when its obvious I'm incredibly concerned about my dog's wellbeing.
> 
> Maybe I've found out who the Facebook messager is


GoldenShadow, the nature of the kind of anonymous harassment you're getting is that it leads to you feeling suspicious of everyone you communicate with - that's perfectly understandable. But not everything said here is aimed at you, and throwing accusations because someone's used sarcastic humour (not aimed at you either) just plays into the hands of the cowardly person who is so interested in making you feel bad. Don't give in to it, no-one on this thread has criticised the choices you've been forced to make for your dog, the discussion is about why people with _healthy_ dogs don't vaccinate.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Yes clearly see all you have to do is titre test maybe inject them with tiny amount of poison


Speak for yourself :lol:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> i do believe it is everyones personal choice but if most vets want to ensure our pets health and well being, if they were to suceed the vet would soon be out of a job, there would be no more sick animals for him to look after only do the yearly injections on all the healthy dogs:lol:


what rubbish - whether said in jest or not, someone will take it serioiusly. I am sure vets would be only too pleased to just be doing routine preventative work. Our vets practice is a mixed one and they spend a lot of their time doing routine work with cattle, testing for various things and giving advice - and instead of having several vets on the go doing clinical work it has cut down disease hugely and really helped. They still need lots of vets, they can plan out their work and one vet can manage all the clinical work on farms in a day. 
It wont happen with dogs though - vaccination and neutering both cut out a lot of problems but there are still plenty of things to go wrong!



archiebaby said:


> its really not that hard to order the same vaccine although it probably is the same with a different name but then they could only charge for one vaccine not the whole course


actually they couldnt. What would happen if the vaccine failed or the dog had a reaction - no one would want to take responsibility.


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> No see all those diseases the vaccine companies just made them up to make money they never existed. We're all gullible and fall for every lie vets throw at us because we don't believe some crackpot conspiracy theory that it's all a ploy to make money.


Okay smarty pants, answer these two questions.

Check my link in my original post and tell me that it doesn't worry you that a European government (possibly ours as well, just it wasn't reported) orders a vaccine with squalene and mercury for the public and orders one without for themselves?

Secondly, if vets are so concerned with our pet's health, why do they all recommend Hills' dog food which is expensive and quite frankly poor quality.

Answer those question and then come back.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

myshkin said:


> GoldenShadow, the nature of the kind of anonymous harassment you're getting is that it leads to you feeling suspicious of everyone you communicate with - that's perfectly understandable. But not everything said here is aimed at you, and throwing accusations because someone's used sarcastic humour (not aimed at you either) just plays into the hands of the cowardly person who is so interested in making you feel bad. Don't give in to it, no-one on this thread has criticised the choices you've been forced to make for your dog, the discussion is about why people with _healthy_ dogs don't vaccinate.


Don't 'give in to it' how old do you think I am? I have much bigger fish to fry in everyday life than what happens on here and Facebook..! Nicky10 was responding to me and using that sarcastic humour then not answering when I was asking if it was aimed at me or where I had said any reference to what she was stating. It's like me suddenly going off on one here going for gods sake my dog might have a health problem I won't vaccinate!! And you then saying where did I say you should etc. If people aren't aiming posts at you they need to quote the relevant section or make it clear it's not directed at you. If people don't stop and bother to answer questions all one can do is assume


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Yes clearly see all you have to do is titre test maybe inject them with tiny amount of poison that's hugely diluted or feed them a balanced diet and no dog will ever be sick. Those evil drug companies they just want to take your money and make your dogs sick :scared:





Nicky10 said:


> I was told it wasn't very reliable for a lot of illnesses and yes not by my evil vet who is clearly deeply involved in the whole conspiracy.





Nicky10 said:


> I vaccinate every three years, lepto every year. No wait lepto so totally like never existed it must be some kind of drug reaction so the companies can claim it's lepto and foolish gulible idiots will give them money to vaccinate against a disease that doesn't exist


Here you go, replies to posts where I was talkin about titre tests etc. Looks to me like the sarcasm was aimed at me, no one else feels the need to include that in posts to address what anyone else has written. I seriously don't understand why it's so hard to see why those posts are directed at me? I don't give a monkeys who is saying what on Facebook but some of the levels of reply on this forum really does lead me to wonder what possesses people 

But to me it looks as though Nicky10 has totally disregarded my posts and responded in a way which says for god's sake why would I listen to you when I've said none of the rubbish she spouted in the above posts and haven't even dissed people who vaccinate as per manufacturers guidelines. But she does seem to have a problem with the fact I don't vaccinate my dog who has x, y and z of problems. I'm not the type of person to accuse if I am not strongly convinced I am right, I've not sat here and accused everyone who disagrees with me just the person who's posts have come across with a lack of respect and who won't answer questions when asked.

This thread seems to have come to an end and the meaningful posts have finished so I will unsubscribe now. Anything important I am sure can be sent to me via Facebook or PM :lol:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I've come very late to this thread and, frankly, after reading the first few and the last few posts, I have no intention of reading the entire thread.

I vaccinate my dogs as recommended by my (not in league with the drug companies--or with Hill's either come to that) vet. I live on a farm where there are lots of rats at times (not my fault--the farmers fault) I am particularly concerned to keep their lepto up to date. The vet vaccinates according to the recommendations of the drug companies (which for some vaccines is not annually).

Vaccination against canine disease has unarguably improved the health of pet dogs in this country.
I don't know if this has been said before but the benifits of vaccination rely to an extent on herd immunity.

Those who decide, because of the scaremongering of interested third parties, not to vaccinate--or to use useless homeopathic or herbal nonsense-- are complicit in the continued problem of canine communicative dieases.

They are at best, ignorant of the facts, and at worst unconcerned about the general health of the rest of the dog population.

I think I'll just get my hat.......


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Secondly, if vets are so concerned with our pet's health, why do they all recommend Hills' dog food which is expensive and quite frankly poor quality.


Because that's what they are taught. Most of the training on nutrition that vets do is sponsored and run by Hills - so they don't get a balanced view.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I have read a lot of the anti-vaccine arguements and considered both sides carefully. When it came to giving Buster the boosters after the first ones I talked to my lecturers who specialised in immunology about it. Most of the anti-arguments are writted by people with one or two experiences of vaccine issues or with homeopathic remedies to sell. Of course vets and manufacturing companies aren't perfect that's why I didn't just talk to them


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

Blitz said:


> what rubbish - whether said in jest or not, someone will take it serioiusly. I am sure vets would be only too pleased to just be doing routine preventative work. Our vets practice is a mixed one and they spend a lot of their time doing routine work with cattle, testing for various things and giving advice - and instead of having several vets on the go doing clinical work it has cut down disease hugely and really helped. They still need lots of vets, they can plan out their work and one vet can manage all the clinical work on farms in a day.
> It wont happen with dogs though - vaccination and neutering both cut out a lot of problems but there are still plenty of things to go wrong!
> 
> well it was said in jest and i think i am entitled to say what i want
> ...


couldnt what?? order the same vaccine:lol: why not if they have already had the first with no reaction, very unlikely to have a reaction to the second one isnt it


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I've come very late to this thread and, frankly, after reading the first few and the last few posts, I have no intention of reading the entire thread.
> 
> I vaccinate my dogs as recommended by my (not in league with the drug companies--or with Hill's either come to that) vet. I live on a farm where there are lots of rats at times (not my fault--the farmers fault) I am particularly concerned to keep their lepto up to date. The vet vaccinates according to the recommendations of the drug companies (which for some vaccines is not annually).
> 
> ...


great post. :thumbup:


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'm sick to death of hearing about people not vaccinating their dogs.
> 
> Vaccination is SO important. It is vital to prevent deadly diseases.
> 
> ...


This information has been provided by someone that works in the industry surely? Lepto yearly? Vaccines every 3? what a lot of nonsense? Only Healthy dogs should be vaccinated? OH MY OH MY.....there really is no hope for anyone when information like this is given....

I don't, have never and will never vaccinate my dogs - anyone that does is complicit in injuring their animal...what is in the vaccine? Who gains the most from giving millions of vaccines to the animal population? Gotta be a dumb owner really to believe anything is good about vaccines...

I guess the dog owners that get Vaccines are the same owners that get a flu shot every year....just in case an all that....

I think anyone reading to give vaccines should think again....no one wins but the vaccine makers......


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Kaysho said:


> This information has been provided by someone that works in the industry surely? Lepto yearly? Vaccines every 3? what a lot of nonsense? Only Healthy dogs should be vaccinated? OH MY OH MY.....there really is no hope for anyone when information like this is given....
> 
> I don't, have never and will never vaccinate my dogs - anyone that does is complicit in injuring their animal...what is in the vaccine? Who gains the most from giving millions of vaccines to the animal population? Gotta be a dumb owner really to believe anything is good about vaccines...
> 
> ...


Gosh you try to make a grand entrance don't ya 

Both my dogs are vaccinated and will continue to be ....myself , I have never had the flu jab:Yawn:


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

excuse me it's up to me whether or not i vaccinate my dogs, and no i don't and won't be doing.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Those people saying that unvaccinated dogs are the ones responsible for spreading the diseases are a little short sighted. Vaccinated dogs shed bacteria in their waste products and are thus equally as responsible, if not more, for spreading things like lepto and parvo.

I have made the decision not to vaccinate my dogs any more, it's something i've been deciding for 2 years now, but last year I gave in and had them done. When one of my dogs had his puppy vaccinations, he was very ill. He was given the first one by his breeder and subsequent ones by the vet. He now suffers with allergies and what I call 'funny turns'. Who's to say whether these were caused by vaccinations or not. But, with these issues in mind, I no longer want to risk making him worse.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Kaysho said:


> This information has been provided by someone that works in the industry surely? Lepto yearly? Vaccines every 3? what a lot of nonsense? Only Healthy dogs should be vaccinated? OH MY OH MY.....there really is no hope for anyone when information like this is given....
> 
> I don't, have never and will never vaccinate my dogs - anyone that does is complicit in injuring their animal...what is in the vaccine? Who gains the most from giving millions of vaccines to the animal population? Gotta be a dumb owner really to believe anything is good about vaccines...
> 
> ...


so would you rather everyones pets died from Parvo? imagine if no dogs had injections it would spread at a rate of nots and would mean a lot of dead dogs,

I think the one giving bad advice is YOU


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

I do vaccinate my dogs and will continue to do so for the time being; and a post stating that I am injuring my animals and that I am dumb obviously just to get a reaction from people will certainly not make me change that


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I do not see the benefits in annual boosters, my cats had to be restarted on a vaccination program when I got them, but I don't continue with the annual boosters as they are not exposed to other unvaccinated animals (they don't stray far from my garden and I know next door doesn't have any animals). Dogs have had puppy vaccinations, but then only odd ones for kennel stays, which we don't do now anyway as Amber finds them too stressful.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I have all of mine vacc'd and will continue to do so unless further information saying it isnt needed is found. At the moment I feel safer doing boosters annually.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Millie has a full vaccine every 3 years and Lepto each year in between.

I spoke in detail to my vet about the risks in our area and his recommendation and I am happy with the level of cover which this provides.

I know there is Parvo in our area (or has been in the last 6 months) so I would never not vaccinate.

I also need to freedom to use kennels in case of emergency - No good if heaven forbid something happened to hubby or myself and we struggled to find somewhere to send Millie temporarily. 

I think its a personal choice - I also believe so many people don't even know the difference between a vaccine and a booster ie if there dog is getting full whack each year or just Lepto. People just accept what the vets tell them. It's up to individuals to talk to experts in their geographical area who they trust and make an informed decision.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The WSAVA doesn't recommend annual revaccination of dogs, it recommends pups are vaccinated, and then dogs revaccinated the following year (I think) and from there on, every three years for *core* vaccinations. Leptospirosis is not considered a core vaccination, unless you have a specific problem in your area, in the North of England it isn't endemic, so therefore not a recommended core vaccination. The BSAVA endorses the WSAVA report from 2010.

Leptospirosis has a number of strains, and the serovars contained in the vaccination don't necessarily protect your dog from the strains in your area. I'm led to believe in fact, that some of the serovars are for strains that aren't even present in the UK, because the vaccine was developed at least partly in North America.

I had a robust conversation with my vets as I don't use the lepto vaccination with the flatcoat, it's controversial in that the dosage is the same for a chihuahua as it is for a great dane, and it is the one with most recorded reactions. As flatcoats are prone to a few cancers, I'd prefer not to compromise Rhuna's immune system with something that's neither recommended, nor necessarily effective. The vaccine is not effective for 12 months, in some instances it's only been recorded as effective for 3 months. My vets did, in their defence, listen to my side of the argument, and have agreed to my choice and given me the vaccine I wanted without lepto. He did slightly contradict his own argument in telling me about his friends dog he is treating atm, but then had to admit that actually the dog had been vaccinated, so had caught lepto despite vaccinations. It's a difficult disease to spot as well, and as far as I know, if you use drugs that possibly inhibit symptoms, it makes it harder to spot.

Link to the WSAVA report:

http://www.wsava.org/PDF/Misc/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

I no longer vaccinate, all have had their 1st booster, and kira has been vaccinated every year, but wont be from now on. 

Ive had grey for 3 years and havent vaccinated in that time, he has never been ill


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

*Just to make this clear, this is an old thread. My views on my original post do NOT represent what I think now. I have learnt a lot over the past year.*


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Those people saying that unvaccinated dogs are the ones responsible for spreading the diseases are a little short sighted. Vaccinated dogs shed bacteria in their waste products and are thus equally as responsible, if not more, for spreading things like lepto and parvo.


Parvo is a virus. It needs a host to reproduce. If all dogs were immune there would be no hosts in which is could reproduce and it would die out, unless a significant mutation in the virus occurred. Parvovirus can only be spread therefore by an infected dog in whose cells the virus is free to reproduce and create new viruses that can be spread to the environment, vie fecal matter.

Lepto IS a bacterial disease but it is spread by infected animals. Most, if not all, bacteria that enter an immune animal's body will subsequently be killed. An infected animal spreads the bacteria around in it's urine. Vaccination is not completely effective due to the variations that can be found between strains of the bacteria BUT it does offer a good deal of protection and this probably explains why annual boosters are reccommended for Lepto - like the human flu virus another rapidly mutating organism.

I think you have mis-interpretted anyway. In order to REPRODUCE SUCCESSFULLY (i.e. in large numbers) these organisms need a non-immune host. Without hosts in which to reproduce successfully these diseases would be less prevalent in the environment, there is no two ways about that. There is certainly no way that vaccinated dogs are MORE responsible for the spread of these diseases than dogs that become ill with the disease.

Any dog, or human, can walk through and infected dog waste product and spread the disease around. But it is dogs that get ill that are the source of *new* pathogens.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I do puppy vaccinations and the first booster... then nothing. I am toying with the idea of doing 3 yearly vaccinations but I have until June to decide. 

Most of the people around here think I am crazy for not vaccinating and I get lectures about it... I also get lectures about raw feeding... I now just tell them where to go. They are my dogs, and therefore it is my decision.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Parvo is a virus. It needs a host to reproduce. If all dogs were immune there would be no hosts in which is could reproduce and it would die out, unless a significant mutation in the virus occurred. Parvovirus can only be spread therefore by an infected dog in whose cells the virus is free to reproduce and create new viruses that can be spread to the environment, vie fecal matter.
> 
> Lepto IS a bacterial disease but it is spread by infected animals. Most, if not all, bacteria that enter an immune animal's body will subsequently be killed. An infected animal spreads the bacteria around in it's urine. Vaccination is not completely effective due to the variations that can be found between strains of the bacteria BUT it does offer a good deal of protection and this probably explains why annual boosters are reccommended for Lepto - like the human flu virus another rapidly mutating organism.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree, parvo does not need a host to be transferred, it can actually live in the soil for up to three years, and can live on bare concrete for six months. It's a terrible disease that can, if caught young, cause joint deformities and an enlarged heart. Of course you wouldn't know this until your dog keels over one day.

The leptospirosis vaccination is admitted to only be effective for up to 12 months, that's a maximum, and as I said in my post above, quite often it is less than that, the shortest time found was 3 months. It is also not endemic, and the serovars do not necessarily protect all dogs in all areas from all strains. It also produces most reactions from dogs, and is not recommended as a core vaccination.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have to disagree, parvo does not need a host to be transferred, it can actually live in the soil for up to three years, and can live on bare concrete for six months. It's a terrible disease that can, if caught young, cause joint deformities and an enlarged heart. Of course you wouldn't know this until your dog keels over one day.


Yes it can be TRANSFERRED this way. But it cannot REPRODUCE without a host.

There are too ways to look at the word "spread".


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Yes it can be TRANSFERRED this way. But it cannot REPRODUCE without a host.
> 
> There are too ways to look at the word "spread".


yes but the point is, parvo can and does live away from a host for long periods of time, and can then transer back to a host; leptospirosis needs certain conditions to survive, and given that there are various strains, it's not an easy condition to vaccinate against. The parvo vaccination is safer, and effective, the leptospirosis vaccination isn't always safe, doesn't necessarily protect your dog, and doesn't protect it for 12 months either, I know which one I'd be discussing as an issue with the vet. But that is just my opinion of course.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I think you missed the point of my post.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Parvo is a virus. It needs a host to reproduce. If all dogs were immune there would be no hosts in which is could reproduce and it would die out, unless a significant mutation in the virus occurred. Parvovirus can only be spread therefore by an infected dog in whose cells the virus is free to reproduce and create new viruses that can be spread to the environment, vie fecal matter.
> 
> Lepto IS a bacterial disease but it is spread by infected animals. Most, if not all, bacteria that enter an immune animal's body will subsequently be killed. An infected animal spreads the bacteria around in it's urine. Vaccination is not completely effective due to the variations that can be found between strains of the bacteria BUT it does offer a good deal of protection and this probably explains why annual boosters are reccommended for Lepto - like the human flu virus another rapidly mutating organism.
> 
> ...





Werehorse said:


> I think you missed the point of my post.


Well then I'm confused, because you seem to say that the lepto vaccination is effective, when actually it's less effective than the parvo vaccination. Honestly, genuinely confused


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

But not every dog that is vaccinated is immune against parvo. Puppies can be vaccinated and it not take, there is a theory that vaccinations do not work in some breeds so even if every dog had their shots, diseases and viruses can still spread.

Leptospirosis in Dogs | Causes & Prevention
"Most of the animals that are infected with Leptospira do not become sick. They are called carriers of the organism, with an inapparent infection. However, when carriers urinate, they shed the bacteria and contaminate the surrounding environment, becoming a source of infection for other animals. They may shed the bacteria in their urine intermittently, or they may shed them for life."

I would call that spreading the disease.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Kaysho said:


> This information has been provided by someone that works in the industry surely? Lepto yearly? Vaccines every 3? what a lot of nonsense? Only Healthy dogs should be vaccinated? OH MY OH MY.....there really is no hope for anyone when information like this is given....
> 
> I don't, have never and will never vaccinate my dogs - anyone that does is complicit in injuring their animal...what is in the vaccine? Who gains the most from giving millions of vaccines to the animal population? Gotta be a dumb owner really to believe anything is good about vaccines...
> 
> ...


I would be interested to know why you have joined this forum, dug up a post which is nearly two years old, just to spout your own beliefs as solid fact and to call some very experienced dog owners "dumb".

This is without so much as an introduction, or a "hi there".

Young puppies should be vaccinated. That is my belief and I am stating it as fact because it has been held as fact for as long as animal vaccines have been in use. After that, it is up to the individual. I used to have my retriever regularly vaccinated and before that my mongrel, for the simple reason that they went into kennels every year and they would not take them without.

Ferdie had his puppy vaccines and then his yearly booster.

It seems to me that it is a case of individual belief and experience, like deciding what I myself am going to eat. If I want greasy chips, I shall have them and I don't need someone with different ideas stating as fact that they are bad for me.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well then I'm confused, because you seem to say that the lepto vaccination is effective, when actually it's less effective than the parvo vaccination. Honestly, genuinely confused


No, I make no real comment on the effectivenesses of the parvo vaccine. And I say that the lepto vaccine isn't as effective as one might like in a vaccine due to the nature of the organism, and suggest that THIS is why a yearly booster is probably considered wise by the veterinary profession. My main quibble is with the idea that vaccinated animals spread diseases around MORE than un-vaccinated animals that catch the disease. My point being that without a receptive host i.e. one that is immune, these diseases cannot make MORE of themselves.

And "the vaccines sometimes don't work" does not make an argument that vaccinated animals are MORE responsible for spreading diseases than unvaccinated ones valid.

Whether the pathogen stays valid in the environment for a long time or not doesn't change the fact that without a receptive, non-immune, host the pathogen cannot reproduce. Dormant virus spores can be spread around by anything that moves but in order to reproduce and MAKE MORE new viruses a virus needs living cells and a sluggish/un-prepared immune response. If there are lots of non-immune hosts available a pathogen will become more prevalent and will spread more easily from place to place, hopping readily between receptive hosts. If there are not very many receptive hosts about then a pathogen will struggle to find places to reproduce and will become less prevalent in the environment.

A population in which the vast majority of individuals are immune will convey some protection on individuals who are not because the pathogen cannot travel through the population as rapidly and create large numbers of itself by reproduction within hosts - this is herd immunity, it's real and observable and has been observed. The reason the smallpox virus doesn't exist in the wild anymore that we know off is because it stopped finding receptive hosts, stopped being able to reproduce and died out. This isn't made up, it's not a conspiracy.

When considering whether to give my dogs vaccines I will always take into account what I feel is my responsibility towards herd immunity. As long as my dogs do not display a clearly linked adverse reaction to boosters then they will continue to get them, for me the potential benefits (which include in my head the altruistic benefit to other dogs) far outweigh the risk of adverse reaction, until an adverse reaction actually happens in that individual dog. THEN it is time to perhaps not have vaccines and hope that other people ARE vaccinating their dogs and keeping population immunity as high as possible.

I fear that this is getting less and less the case and I fear for the consequences of this. :frown2:

Also worth noting is that without reproduction in a viable host mutation of the pathogen is VASTLY, and I mean to the point of near impossibility, reduced... keeping vaccines that are effective, effective for longer.

Severe reactions to vaccination and boosters remains a RARE event - whatever the anti-vaccine lobby want to say, however many emotive videos are made using sad individual RARE stories. Mild reactions are probably relatively common but are far less damaging than the disease which is being protected against.

Don't worry anti-vaccine people I'll keep taking one for the team with my dogs feeling a touch lethargic for one day every year so that your dogs don't have to and can hopefully also live a disease free life, I just hope that enough people in my area are returning the favour IF one of mine becomes genuinely unable to have vaccines at some point in the future.  Seriously the only reason you have the luxury of a choice in vaccination (i.e. it isn't vaccinate or it is HIGHLY LIKELY they will get the disease) is because enough people DO vaccinate.

Quibbles over effectiveness will happen and these things can always be improved - but the basic premise that a weak or dead pathogen injected into the body triggers an immune response, which then sets up a faster and larger secondary immune response when the body comes into contact with the pathogen again thus meaning the symptoms of the disease don't appear holds true against all available evidence.

It's a hell of a lot more complicated than that of course, biology always is, hence the often confusing and conflicting information. There's also a lot of deliberately emotive and hysterical propaganda surrounding vaccines, for some reason we all love a good conspiracy theory and vaccine have been mis-understood and mis-trusted since their very beginning - we don't like the idea of deliberately putting pathogens into ourselves, very counter-intuitive.

BUT - Not vaccinating because of the various quibbles and mis-understandings and imperfections of current vaccines is throwing the baby out with the bath water in spectacular fashion in my view.

I've said my piece, I wasn't going to - I've said it because I hate seeing a completely one-sided argument, I hope lurkers reading this who are sitting on the fence will consider BOTH sides and ALL consequences AND discuss it with a vet (generally an intelligent person who hasn't done 5/6 years of training to be sidelined in something like this) before making any radical decisions about their and other dogs' health, I won't be reading any response unless it's via PM, I'm not arguing about vaccines on the internet anymore I find it stressful and frankly life is stressful enough.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I have since losing misty followed Jeans dodds recommendations.

for those of you who do not know or JD she is an autoimmune specialist vet.

worth a look

Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I do mine every year.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> Those people saying that unvaccinated dogs are the ones responsible for spreading the diseases are a little short sighted. Vaccinated dogs shed bacteria in their waste products and are thus equally as responsible, if not more, for spreading things like lepto and parvo.
> 
> I have made the decision not to vaccinate my dogs any more, it's something i've been deciding for 2 years now, but last year I gave in and had them done. When one of my dogs had his puppy vaccinations, he was very ill. He was given the first one by his breeder and subsequent ones by the vet. He now suffers with allergies and what I call 'funny turns'. Who's to say whether these were caused by vaccinations or not. But, with these issues in mind, I no longer want to risk making him worse.


Leanne - not short sighted - I suggest you read about herd immunity. The incidence of parvo and distemper where much more common years ago. I can understand there may be a few dogs that react badly to vaccines and it is as much for their protection that most dogs are vaccinated. I'm against over vaccination and I do think our personal circumstances are relevant (I live next the Thames in London so Lepto is of particular concern) but if everybody was to stop vaccinating their dogs we would see a considerably different picture.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> No, I make no real comment on the effectivenesses of the parvo vaccine. And I say that the lepto vaccine isn't as effective as one might like in a vaccine due to the nature of the organism, and suggest that THIS is why a yearly booster is probably considered wise by the veterinary profession. My main quibble is with the idea that vaccinated animals spread diseases around MORE than un-vaccinated animals that catch the disease. My point being that without a receptive host i.e. one that is immune, these diseases cannot make MORE of themselves.
> 
> And "the vaccines sometimes don't work" does not make an argument that vaccinated animals are MORE responsible for spreading diseases than unvaccinated ones valid.
> 
> ...


I getcha now  I still don't agree re the lepto vaccination, the fact that it's known not to be effective for 12 months, and very unlikely to be effective for that long, and as short a period as 3 months, means to me it's a fairly pointless vaccination. Also that the strains differ from one area to another, but the vaccine doesn't reflect this, makes it about as useful as the KC one in my view. My main objection to it is the poor record of adverse reactions which is admitted by the WSAVA in their report, whether this is partly down to the silly way of dosing dogs, ie every single dog gets the same dose regardless of size, I'm not sure, but having weighed things up, the same as you and I'm sure everyone on here, have made what I think is the best choice for my dogs individually.

Thanks for responding, and I do see your side, but the more I read about vaccinations the more I think we know very little about how they may well affect our dogs, so I take a very cautious view with them I'm afraid.


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I would be interested to know why you have joined this forum, dug up a post which is nearly two years old, just to spout your own beliefs as solid fact and to call some very experienced dog owners "dumb".
> 
> This is without so much as an introduction, or a "hi there".
> 
> ...


Okay sorry...Hi...I'm Me and I joined this forum because I wanted too. And the fact that I dug up a 2 year post is no real concern. Thats the beauty of the Internet uh?

You state: "Young puppies should be vaccinated. That is my belief and I am stating it as fact because it has been held as fact for as long as animal vaccines have been in use"

Stating it as FACT? Wow...any idea of what's in a vaccine? 
Also how long have animal vaccines been in use? I'd be interested because from my own research into the subject I'm struggling to find vaccines from before 1960...Wonder how the modern day pet ever survived without these modern day vaccines designed to (make someone rich and your pet sick) ...

You see people that state FACTS are simply repeaters. The facts they have are more often than not direct from the source that pushes the vaccine. It really isn't rocket science....>: inject unknown mix of chemicals into your perfect puppy? Sounds insane no? Then repeat per instruction received....in fact before they reach adulthood why not inject them with whatever the Vet tells us to?

Fact is Fact until people see the truth...and if the lie is big enough, millions of pet owners will swell the coffers of the big vaccine makers and make them just that little bit richer whilst making their dogs have to encounter a chemical mix cocktail of who knows what....

Don't worry....my anti vaccine stance isn't just for pet vaccines....and my gripe isn't with you newfiesmum, I'm just showing someone like me, who typed "I don't vaccinate my dogs" that their are other pet owners that will never, have never and could think off nothing worse than to vaccinate anything living and breathing and dare I say "perfect"

Follow the money in vaccines and your half way there into seeing who really benefits! Cos it ain't ever been the animal. Peace....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Kaysho said:


> Okay sorry...Hi...I'm Me and I joined this forum because I wanted too. And the fact that I dug up a 2 year post is no real concern. Thats the beauty of the Internet uh?
> 
> You state: "Young puppies should be vaccinated. That is my belief and I am stating it as fact because it has been held as fact for as long as animal vaccines have been in use"
> 
> ...


So you believe then that smallpox disappeared on its own? What about diptheria? Measles? Polio, which left hundreds of people spending their lives in iron lungs? All these things were eliminated through vaccinations, that is fact whether you believe in it or not.


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

I also used to give the pup jabs then the first adult one until i had my young chi died of Parvo. I felt so guilty and still do because i could have prevented it. I also had to wait two weeks before i could start the jabs for the others they had to start the course again and then two weeks after that before i knew if i would lose the rest. It was terrible and luckily i didnt lose anyone else but it taught me a lesson and i will now jab my dogs.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Holly had her jabs when she had her MOT. At her age the immune system is not as good as a young dogs. I will not take risks with her getting anything nasty. She has managed to reach 16 and has her jabs yearly. And by the way, I had my flu jab, as an asthmatic I am not taking risks with my health either.
Maybe I am following the herd but it makes sense to me, better safe than sorry


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> So you believe then that smallpox disappeared on its own? What about diptheria? Measles? Polio, which left hundreds of people spending their lives in iron lungs? All these things were eliminated through vaccinations, that is fact whether you believe in it or not.


I had questions for you if you read what I wrote? As for the diseases you mention. Vaccines in all them cases made vaccine companies rich enough to control the media, the medical profession and what VACCINES go into your beautiful, perfect and healthy pet...it even allowed them to produce wonderful literature to show you that your a NUTCASE if u DON'T VACCINATE your pets....Well if im a nutcase for not vaccinating then I'm okay with that...

look....a perfect being gets injected with imperfect products for what? A future disease that they may or may not get? <thats INSANE>

As a sideline it's also well researched that all the diseases you mention where in decline before the introduction of the vaccine

I am not saying that pets won't get sick, they may die even, lepto sounds horrible, but a cough is about all my dogs ever get...my Vet actually agrees with my stance - BUT she makes MASSIVE profit from thousands of pet owners queuing for VACCINES that they don't even know what's in it...so she is hardly gonna put a poster up.

It's all NEW in the grand scheme off things - then they get us battling each other, personally I think history will look back at this time and wonder why we injected ourselves with anything - they will think it was insane.

I'm not gonna beat a ball with you, you seem intent on whacking me with ur fact stick....I'm just giving anyone reading a side that their are people that don't vaccinate ever....never will and actually struggles to comprehend the robotic ness of people in believing that injecting a foreign substance, direct into he bloodstream is the way to go???

I'm desperate to make a baaaa baaaaa baaaaa noise but will resist....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

cavmad said:


> I also used to give the pup jabs then the first adult one until i had my young chi died of Parvo. I felt so guilty and still do because i could have prevented it. I also had to wait two weeks before i could start the jabs for the others they had to start the course again and then two weeks after that before i knew if i would lose the rest. It was terrible and luckily i didnt lose anyone else but it taught me a lesson and i will now jab my dogs.


So sorry to hear that. If I were to bring a young puppy into the house, I would definitely make sure the other dogs were up to date. But I wouldn't be calling anyone dumb or anything else because they do or do not vaccinate. That is a matter of choice and there are some higher risk areas.

Some years ago when my youngest was ten, we planned a trip to Tunisia for holidays. We had to have typhoid and cholera vaccines, two of them. Sherri was so ill after the vaccine that the doctor said he would not give her the second one and she was never to have these particular vaccines again. So you see, what is fine for one person or one dog, does not work for others.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Kaysho said:


> I had questions for you if you read what I wrote? As for the diseases you mention. Vaccines in all them cases made vaccine companies rich enough to control the media, the medical profession and what VACCINES go into your beautiful, perfect and healthy pet...it even allowed them to produce wonderful literature to show you that your a NUTCASE if u DON'T VACCINATE your pets....Well if im a nutcase for not vaccinating then I'm okay with that...
> 
> look....a perfect being gets injected with imperfect products for what? A future disease that they may or may not get? <thats INSANE>
> 
> ...


I am old enough to remember the last polio outbreak before they produced the vaccine. There were children dying every day, and the ones that didn't spent the rest of their lives in an iron lung. There was a woman in Australia who was in one for 30 years because she contracted polio. They closed all the swimming pools and paddling pools because they believed that was where the disease came from. It was terrifying, and it was not on its way out. They developed the vaccine because of this outbreak, and if they hadn't, a lot more would have died.

Usually it is the people who do not vaccinate their babies or their dogs, who end up giving the disease to someone else or someone else's dog.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Kaysho, you do come across as a little aggressive there is no need to belittle & name call others if their views don't happen to agree with yours.

My previous dog had an auto immune disease so I am extremely wary of vaccination. My dog now had his puppy jabs and 1 year booster, I was not going to have the booster but discussed it with the vet as there was a large increase in parvo in the area. Its not something you can make a snap decision about, you need to weigh up the risks either way because you as the owner are then ultimately responsible for the outcome.

Re human vaccination - can you quote the actual research showing diseases were in decline before vaccines? Look at whooping cough for example, because of the decline in numbers vaccinating thats on the increase and babies have died from it


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I am old enough to remember the last polio outbreak before they produced the vaccine. There were children dying every day, and the ones that didn't spent the rest of their lives in an iron lung. There was a woman in Australia who was in one for 30 years because she contracted polio. They closed all the swimming pools and paddling pools because they believed that was where the disease came from. It was terrifying, and it was not on its way out. They developed the vaccine because of this outbreak, and if they hadn't, a lot more would have died.
> 
> Usually it is the people who do not vaccinate their babies or their dogs, who end up giving the disease to someone else or someone else's dog.


Again hitting me with your fact stick...you don't even sit long enough to digest anything said....why are you talking about polio? I was talking about not vaccinating my pets and if I'm being honest I do think that people that vaccinate their pets are not only dumb but seriously misinformed. It doesn't take so much these days to inform yourself...Google canine health concern and Catherine Driscoll for some unbiased unfunded information.

By the way: did you catch my question of when the first pet vaccine was introduced? Maybe you could help me with my research....


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Kaysho, you do come across as a little aggressive there is no need to belittle & name call others if their views don't happen to agree with yours.
> 
> My previous dog had an auto immune disease so I am extremely wary of vaccination. My dog now had his puppy jabs and 1 year booster, I was not going to have the booster but discussed it with the vet as there was a large increase in parvo in the area. Its not something you can make a snap decision about, you need to weigh up the risks either way because you as the owner are then ultimately responsible for the outcome.
> 
> Re human vaccination - can you quote the actual research showing diseases were in decline before vaccines? Look at whooping cough for example, because of the decline in numbers vaccinating thats on the increase and babies have died from it


Sorry if I'm coming across as aggressive, it's because I keep getting beaten with a fact stick....

"Diseases in decline before vaccines introduced" into google shd set you on the right path...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Kaysho, you do come across as a little aggressive there is no need to belittle & name call others if their views don't happen to agree with yours.
> 
> My previous dog had an auto immune disease so I am extremely wary of vaccination. My dog now had his puppy jabs and 1 year booster, I was not going to have the booster but discussed it with the vet as there was a large increase in parvo in the area. Its not something you can make a snap decision about, you need to weigh up the risks either way because you as the owner are then ultimately responsible for the outcome.
> 
> Re human vaccination - can you quote the actual research showing diseases were in decline before vaccines? Look at whooping cough for example, because of the decline in numbers vaccinating thats on the increase and babies have died from it


It was given as fact when my children were small that whooping cough vaccine caused brain damage and indeed, my son went to school with a child who had contracted brain damage from the vaccine. It was rare, but it was also scary. I believed that Ian had more chance of it going wrong, since he was born with brain damage, so I did not have him done, nor his younger sister. I would hate to think that it is coming back.



Kaysho said:


> Again hitting me with your fact stick...you don't even sit long enough to digest anything said....why are you talking about polio? I was talking about not vaccinating my pets and if I'm being honest I do think that people that vaccinate their pets are not only dumb but seriously misinformed. It doesn't take so much these days to inform yourself...Google canine health concern and Catherine Driscoll for some unbiased unfunded information.
> 
> By the way: did you catch my question of when the first pet vaccine was introduced? Maybe you could help me with my research....


I don't know when pet vaccines began and I never intimated that I did. I am tell you my memories, not a fact stick as you like to call it. Google away, you will find the answer I'm sure. You will also find facts that the holocaust never happened, and various other idiotic opinions produced on the internet as fact.

I know that dogs when I was little didn't get vaccinated, but a lot never left their own property either. When I referred my daughter to a fact sheet about vaccines causing the disease and causing joint problems, she was furious. She is a vet nurse in Australia and has nothing to gain from convincing me to vaccinate. I trust her judgement more than the vet who is trying to get my money, certainly.

As to vaccines making drug companies rich, do you expect them to give the stuff away?


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Kaysho, you do come across as a little aggressive there is no need to belittle & name call others if their views don't happen to agree with yours.
> 
> My previous dog had an auto immune disease so I am extremely wary of vaccination. My dog now had his puppy jabs and 1 year booster, I was not going to have the booster but discussed it with the vet as there was a large increase in parvo in the area. Its not something you can make a snap decision about, you need to weigh up the risks either way because you as the owner are then ultimately responsible for the outcome.
> 
> *Re human vaccination - can you quote the actual research showing diseases were in decline before vaccines? Look at whooping cough for example, because of the decline in numbers vaccinating thats on the increase and babies have died from it*


There is no evidence - deaths were in decline due to increasing living standards and better treatment and management (polio and the iron lung is the best example of this) but there is no evidence that _incidences_ of diseases were in decline. For diseases like measles, infection rates were variable per year (before the vaccine) so it's easy to cherry pick data that supports that case but it's a parital and very misleading picture.

I think this blog post explains it in the most straightforward way.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Kaysho said:


> Again hitting me with your fact stick...you don't even sit long enough to digest anything said....why are you talking about polio? I was talking about not vaccinating my pets and if* I'm being honest I do think that people that vaccinate their pets are not only dumb but seriously misinformed.* It doesn't take so much these days to inform yourself...Google canine health concern and Catherine Driscoll for some unbiased unfunded information.
> 
> By the way: did you catch my question of when the first pet vaccine was introduced? Maybe you could help me with my research....


Wow now thats lovely isnt it.

I have to agree with Doodlesrule - your tone of your posts stink.

This is a public forum and you will meet people who you dont agree with but that the nature of such a forum.

But to put your agruement accross in an aggressive way and to call all those who disagree with you as 'dumb' is somewhat uncalled for.

What an entrance :nonod:


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## vickieb (Nov 22, 2010)

I didnt read all the pages so I apologise if this was covered somewhere, but I vaccinate as no one will take dogs into home boarding if they are not done. 

For those that dont vaccinate, how do you get round this? 

I dont know much about the for and against, I just thought it was a given that most do, although I did meet a lady that that as part of her ownership agreement was to raw feed and not vaccinate which i was  at....... only because I assumed everyone did the jabs.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

i only give puppy vaccinations then the first year booster then don't bother, it's my personal choice and all my dogs are happy & healthy, daniel had his puppy jabs and due his booster jab in june next year then he won't have any more.

my old girl sasha was 19 years old when she died and only had her puppy jabs the only health probs she had was ear infections and had some teeth out.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Jake was 2 years since his last vaccination when I brought Arrow home... I didn't vaccinate him for bringing Arrow home. If I am honest, I didn't see the point... I don't vaccinate because I don't think it is needed every year and therefore, I don't see the risk in bringing a puppy into the home with a dog that isn't up to date by that length of time... Besides, going by what they say about the immunity and vaccinations, he should have still been covered by his maternal antibodies and then, when he had his vaccinations, he should have been covered them.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

O.K. so I am dumb and misinformed, so be it. But I and my dog are still alive. I wonder how many not so would have had the jabs if they knew the benefits.
We will never know but to be called dumb for wanting to protect my dog and myself is very insulting.
Where do you get to be self righteous and tell everyone you are correct and every one else is wrong.


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Wow now thats lovely isnt it.
> 
> I have to agree with Doodlesrule - your tone of your posts stink.
> *
> ...


What argument? I was just stating I don't vaccinate....
The tone stinks? Well sometimes like you say u meet people that dont agree....

Go vaccinate your pets/kids YOU, I don't care two hoots....you just wont see me in the queue....I'm sure the next "swine flu" scare will be along soon enough for them asses oops the masses to take "just in case"


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

It's not what you say that is the problem, a lot of people don't vaccinate thats your and their choice. It is the way you say it . Calling people "dumb" because you don't agree is rude and ignorant.
I can respect peoples choices without being rude about even if I don't agree.

I don't know how old you are, you sound young and immature, I hope by the time you reach my age you have learned some manners.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Kaysho said:


> What argument? I was just stating I don't vaccinate....
> The tone stinks? Well sometimes like you say u meet people that dont agree....
> 
> Go vaccinate your pets/kids YOU, I don't care two hoots....you just wont see me in the queue....I'm sure the next "swine flu" scare will be along soon enough for them asses oops the masses to take "just in case"


Dresden had his puppy vaccinations, and he'll probably have his booster, but beyond that Im undecided.

However, what would you do in my situation?
I live in a high parvo area, even the vet at the practise we took him to for his jabs said 'but parvo isn't too much of a problem here, only in lowestoft really'

I live in lowestoft.
I also have a black and tan breed (do a google search, lots of pages suggesting they're at higher risk of parvo for some reason).

I worked at the local vets, and saw many dogs and pups come in with parvo. 
It just wasn't a risk I was willing to take with my first ever, brand new puppy.

I don't think I was dumb or stupid for getting him vaccinated. I have a healthy, and ALIVE puppy. Had I not vaccinated.....who knows.

Now I AM still dubious about the need for yearly vaccinations, absolutely. I have no issues with people not doing it yearly, I completely see their logic. But there was no way I was going to not vaccinate my young puppy in a high parvo area.

I don't have anything against those who believe otherwise. But I do when they imply Im stupid or brain washed.

I wonder if the owners of the pups I saw desperately ill from parvo at the vets, who didn't vaccinate, were just stupid and brain washed?


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## Netpon (Feb 21, 2012)

I vaccinate my dogs and my children because I would never forgive myself if I lost them to a disease that is preventable


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

L/C said:


> There is no evidence - deaths were in decline due to increasing living standards and better treatment and management (polio and the iron lung is the best example of this) but there is no evidence that _incidences_ of diseases were in decline. For diseases like measles, infection rates were variable per year (before the vaccine) so it's easy to cherry pick data that supports that case but it's a parital and very misleading picture.
> 
> I think this blog post explains it in the most straightforward way.


And who is this DR GORSKI fellow? Great article by the way...


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

If it makes you dumb to vaccinate where does that leave me then, previous dog had no boosters after age 2 when he was diagnosed with auto immune disease. As I said Dougie had his 1 year booster, our vets recommend next in 3 years time. I will weigh up risks local to me at that time so may or may not vaccinate. I must be confused dumb then


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

vickieb said:


> I didnt read all the pages so I apologise if this was covered somewhere, but I vaccinate as no one will take dogs into home boarding if they are not done.
> 
> *For those that dont vaccinate, how do you get round this? *
> I dont know much about the for and against, I just thought it was a given that most do, although I did meet a lady that that as part of her ownership agreement was to raw feed and not vaccinate which i was  at....... only because I assumed everyone did the jabs.


I never go anywhere



Kaysho said:


> What argument? I was just stating I don't vaccinate....
> The tone stinks? Well sometimes like you say u meet people that dont agree....
> 
> Go vaccinate your pets/kids YOU, I don't care two hoots....you just wont see me in the queue....I'm sure the next "swine flu" scare will be along soon enough for them asses oops the masses to take "just in case"


What are you on about? If you don't care too hoots, perhaps you would like to take your uncalled for a rude remarks elsewhere. I don't particularly care whether you vaccinate or not, but the person who started this thread nearly two years ago did so to give an opinion, which was done a lot more politely than yours.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Bisbow said:


> It's not what you say that is the problem, a lot of people don't vaccinate thats your and their choice. It is the way you say it . Calling people "dumb" because you don't agree is rude and ignorant.
> I can respect peoples choices without being rude about even if I don't agree.
> 
> I don't know how old you are, you sound young and immature, I hope by the time you reach my age you have learned some manners.


You hit the nail on the head Bisbow - Its not what is said but the way it is said.

Just because you have a differing of opinions it seems very uncalled for to call those 'dumb' who have an opinion differing from your own.

Millie has vaccines every 3 years with Lepto in between - Thats my choice and recommended by my vet who I trust and is suitable for our area and risks Millie is subjected to.

I doesnt make me dumb - Its called putting my dogs best interests at heart.

**but hey im dumb so what do I know :001_tongue: **


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

Bisbow said:


> It's not what you say that is the problem, a lot of people don't vaccinate thats your and their choice. It is the way you say it . Calling people "dumb" because you don't agree is rude and ignorant.
> I can respect peoples choices without being rude about even if I don't agree.
> 
> I don't know how old you are, you sound young and immature, I hope by the time you reach my age you have learned some manners.


Oh for gods sake - I'm sure we will see u in the queue....

I can see the dumb calling is what people are most offended by....wow....Is that cos our defending the issue that just perhaps the vaccine companies have you hook line and sinker in their game?

As for my age? Reaching your age? What has any off that got to do with it...I can see the forum is littered with people with strong opinions and VIP members who must know more than newbies. I'm wondering now if your off an age where pets didnt get vaccinated because no vaccines existed...

Anyway - ur the ones that seem aggressive just because someone doesn't toe your line of advise given....

I'm just writing for people that are unsure, given them an opinion from someone that still thinks that people are dumb and misinformed if they get a vaccine...

It's called freedom of speech....get over it


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> You hit the nail on the head Bisbow - Its not what is said but the way it is said.
> 
> Just because you have a differing of opinions it seems very uncalled for to call those 'dumb' who have an opinion differing from your own.
> 
> ...


You see that's what happens....people gang up on others that don't agree with the doctrine they have been set...the way I said it?

Good for you vaccinating your pets....I actually don't care....

All I'm stating is that I don't and have never....and yes, I do think people are dumb that do....that's my choice...


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I never go anywhere
> 
> What are you on about? If you don't care too hoots, perhaps you would like to take your uncalled for a rude remarks elsewhere. I don't particularly care whether you vaccinate or not, but the person who started this thread nearly two years ago did so to give an opinion, which was done a lot more politely than yours.


What is your problem?


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Kaysho, who else is 'dumb' in your eyes? Anyone who doesn't do things exactly as you do?
It would be like me calling all people who don't raw feed 'dumb', bleating about them being 'brainwashed' by pet food companies, etc.
As it is, passionate as I am about raw feeding, I also realise it isn't right for everyone and many dogs do wonderfully on kibble, so whats the problem? Kibble isn't what I'd choose for my particular dog at this particular time, but in the future, I may have a dog that doesn't get on with raw and only tolerates have kibble.

People are not 'dumb' just because they don't look after their dog the way I do. 
As long as the dog is healthy, happy and loved, where is the problem?

The problem with your view is that one can find support for any opinion they care to have on google! I could decide that feeding my rats nothing but wholemeal bread was better for them than a properly balanced omnivore diet, and I bet that if I looked hard enough, I'd find someone online who agreed  Maybe even an article on it saying how much better an option this was. 
The internet can be wonderful, but it can also be a cesspool of ridiculous views and debates. As was said, you can find much online about how the holocaust never happened!
You can find pages saying how Noah's ark was absolute complete fact, to the last word. You can find pages saying how humans and dinosaurs lived side by side, even though there is absolutely NO evidence for this. You can find pages that claim a prong collar is the best option for a puppy that pulls on the lead, with many people backing this up, and so on.

I don't trust anything I read online really, simply because for every 'fact' I think I've found, I can easily find a page refuting that fact just as convincingly!
I had this problem with spays on female rats. For every article you can find claiming spaying reduces cancer risks, you'll find another saying there is little to no proof, and its not worth putting a young rat through an invasive op for such an uncertain outcome regarding tumours. 
And its a topic Im still on the fence about, simply because both sides are so convincing!

In the end, I have to just read all I can, take on board both views, and use MY judgement to decide which seems most plausible and which side most genuine.

I'll tell you one thing that _doesn't_ make me want to consider a view point though: aggression in putting that point across, calling people dumb for not seeing this view point. That just makes me click 'close' on the window right off the bat.....


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I am all for freedom of speech, but not for ignorant rants like you are putting up. Freedom of speech means I can also say what I thing, or is that only for the privileged few like you. You who are right and every one else in dunb.

So pleased I don't live in your world. Age does not mean wisdom, only that we oldies can see both sides. But, of course, the young know best, don't they


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

Bisbow said:


> I am all for freedom of speech, but not for ignorant rants like you are putting up. Freedom of speech means I can also say what I thing, or is that only for the privileged few like you. You who are right and every one else in dunb.
> 
> So pleased I don't live in your world. Age does not mean wisdom, only that we oldies can see both sides. But, of course, the young know best, don't they


Passive aggression - it's everywhere - and off course your allowed to say what u want - u already have


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> Kaysho, who else is 'dumb' in your eyes? Anyone who doesn't do things exactly as you do?
> It would be like me calling all people who don't raw feed 'dumb', bleating about them being 'brainwashed' by pet food companies, etc.
> As it is, passionate as I am about raw feeding, I also realise it isn't right for everyone and many dogs do wonderfully on kibble, so whats the problem? Kibble isn't what I'd choose for my particular dog at this particular time, but in the future, I may have a dog that doesn't get on with raw and only tolerates have kibble.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more....Informed judgement without throwing it down someone's throat....after all, I'm only stating I don't vaccinate my dogs (and I raw feed them too)


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Kaysho said:


> And who is this DR GORSKI fellow? Great article by the way...


Does it matter who he is? The information is there on the page - people can read and make up their own minds. It is clearly set out with the source data quoted and linked and the graphs presented - people should read it and judge it for themselves.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Kaysho said:


> You see that's what happens....people gang up on others that don't agree with the doctrine they have been set...the way I said it?
> 
> Good for you vaccinating your pets....I actually don't care....
> 
> All I'm stating is that I don't and have never....and yes, I do think people are dumb that do....that's my choice...


Who is ganging up?

I just dont like to see other members called 'dumb' or accussed of being 'at thef ront of the queue'.

From your first post your tone has come accross as aggressive towards those who dont agree which really isnt required to give your own opinion. (Which of course you as well as everyone else is entitled to)

If you took some time to get to know people on this forum you will see whilst there are plenty of differing opinions we all love our dogs and would do the very best by them given their individual needs / risks etc NOBODY who spends time on an animal forum would do anythng other than the best by our dogs - Thats why we joined here 

You have come on here with a hoiler than thou attitude and I very much doubt any passer by who comes accross this thread, looking for information on vaccines and reads your posts would actually read and trust what you have been syaing due to the way you have said it - In an aggressive immature manor.


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

L/C said:


> Does it matter who he is? The information is there on the page - people can read and make up their own minds. It is clearly set out with the source data quoted and linked and the graphs presented - people should read it and judge it for themselves.


Does it matter who he is? Is that a serious question? Someone posts a blog and you repost it and are now asking me does it matter who he is?

Mmmmmm.....does it matter who it is? To me yes. But it seems to quite a few people walking the planet that they will gather their information from anywhere -

Does it matter who he is? Want to answer that yourself?

I can see I'm just pissing people off here - that was never an intention


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## Kaysho (Oct 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Who is ganging up?
> 
> I just dont like to see other members called 'dumb' or accussed of being 'at thef ront of the queue'.
> 
> ...


Cool.....I love my dogs too, that's why I joined the forum....didn't think youd all be so aggressive towards newbies though - "here, someone doesn't agree with everything we are saying.....let's beat him with a few fact sticks and then immaturity sticks...."

You almost sound like the establishment


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Kaysho said:


> Does it matter who he is? Is that a serious question? Someone posts a blog and you repost it and are now asking me does it matter who he is?
> 
> Mmmmmm.....does it matter who it is? To me yes. But it seems to quite a few people walking the planet that they will gather their information from anywhere -
> 
> ...


The information is presented on the page - it's all there and so people can read for themselves and make up their own minds. It links to the source material, presents the data and then you can read it and interpret it.

If you really want to know about David Gorski - the info about him personally is here and the info about the blog is here.

It's an independent blog with no funding from the medical industry and thus no conflicts of interest. It's editorial team is made up of Dr's and research scientists.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

:lol: I see we have an idealist conspiracy theorist psuedo-anarchist in our mists. How cute.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Kaysho said:


> You see that's what happens....people gang up on others that don't agree with the doctrine they have been set...the way I said it?
> 
> Good for you vaccinating your pets....I actually don't care....
> 
> All I'm stating is that I don't and have never....and yes, I do think people are dumb that do....that's my choice...


If you join a forum you expect to discuss, have facts and memories presented, give your point of view. What you don't do is to immediately tell everyone else they are "dumb" because they have a different opinion to you.



Kaysho said:


> What is your problem?


My problem is whether to simply close this thread before you insult anyone else, or whether to let you carry on until I decide enough is enough and to ban you instead.

As it is, I shall simply close this thread.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Kaysho said:


> I couldn't agree more....Informed judgement without throwing it down someone's throat....after all, I'm only stating I don't vaccinate my dogs (and I raw feed them too)


If that was an accurate reflection of your posts then you would be getting informed debate in response. You are not just stating you don't vaccinate, you are saying - repeatedly - that anyone who does is dumb. Thats not informed judgement or debate its just rude.

If you stop trying to pick a fight you will soon find there are loads on PF who do not vaccinate


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