# Very sick goldfish--help please



## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Just a quick rundown. I have a 5.5 gal tank (a Fluval Chi) in my office. Set it up with a live bamboo plant, sand on the bottom, followed the instructions for adding beneficial bacteria. Let it run for about a month before putting fish in. 

Got two very small fantails from my local petstore. Put them in--one looked sick within a day and died a few days later. Did a 50% water change. Got a replacement, who was very plump and active. Also purchased a second plant. The other fish from the original 2 started to look paler, hung near the top a lot, but not gasping, just kind of listless. Changed the water twice again, one about 80%. Added some aquarium salt. He died about 2 days later--i came into work to find him just lying on the bottom looking sickly. Changed the water again and he perked up slightly but died by lunch time. He had a fat belly, but sunk in by his tail---don't know if that's important, but I figured I should add it--he looked like he was full of air, but starving.

That was Thursday. So, Friday, I changed the water again--the 3rd fish actually perked up after I removed his dead companion, and seemed fine when I left, although he was still looking plump. I also went out and bought him an additional filter, as I didn't think the Chi's filter was terribly useful. He seemed quite happy when I left for the day, as if the new water and the filter had done the trick and he was saved from danger. 

Came in this morning to find him lying on the bottom, gasping. He swam up when he saw me, then plopped back down. So, I immediately did a 50% change. Since then he's been struggling to move around the tank. He'll swim up a little, then sink down. But he is now sitting more upright than he was when I got in--before he was on his side and once even upside down.

I'm thinking I will take him out and put him in some fresh water and just clean the entire tank and hope for the best. Is that a bad idea? Is there anything else I should do? The pet store is no help, and I've combed the internet for suggestions. I don't want to shock or stress him, but at this point, I'm thinking it can't get too much worse, so maybe a nice clean tank will do the trick. I've got some peas waiting for him, as I've read the plumpness could be constipation. 

Please help Bubbles


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

An update---while I was getting things set up to change all the water, Bubbles lost his fight. 

So---with that in mind and so that I don't kill yet another little fish, what could be the problem? What should I do differently going forward? 

I'm thinking I should clean the tank thoroughly, rinse the sand, wash down the plants, start a new cycle, and then maybe go with a Siamese Fighting Fish instead, as they are less dirty than goldfish and won't be lonely by himself. 

Anything else I should be doing?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I've just got back in to fish keeping so by no means am I experienced, but I did a fishless cycle to get my fish in, so ran the tank, and used ammonia, and an API Testing kit to make sure the ammonia change to good bacteria over a period of time, I tested the water levels each day to watch them change from Ammonia, to Nitrites and finally Nitrates, only when the ammonia and Nitrites were 0 for 3 days in a row did I add fish.

Fishkeeping - Fishless Tank Cycling and Avoiding New Tank Syndrome - General Guides - Articles

If you google the term you'll find lots of different articles in it.. I am still testing the water now as I have only had the fish in since Friday. I'm sure someone with more experience will be able to help you too


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks---that's one page I hadn't read yet! I feel like I've had a crash course in fishkeeping and still don't know enough. I just wonder how on earth I ever managed to have fish live in the past. I've had 2 goldfish in a 2 gallon tank for years on end, with minimal water changes, and they were healthy looking. Very active. Before them, I kept a betta in that tank, then a bunch of guppies who reproduced like mad and devoured their babies, but did fine otherwise. I kept a betta for close to a year in a bowl and I would toss him in a coffee mug while I cleaned his bowl, then toss him back, without a worry (I was 8, so before anyone rips me up). And that's only 2 examples. I had a lot of fish growing up and at university, and nothing even close to the worry of the last 2 months or so. 

I realize now it was nothing short of miraculous that any of those fish lived for more than a week, much less years. ut: And now, I know so much more, and I kill everything that I put in there. :001_unsure:


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Firstly sorry to hear of your losses, but i'm afraid from what I am reading you may have made a number of the classic beginners mistakes, and I will do my best to help you get sorted.

Lets start from the beginning. When you said you set up the tank, added some bacteria and left it for a month before adding fish - did you have a filter running during that time, and did you use any kind of ammonia source? I ask this because the bacteria need a) somewhere to grow (the filter, primarily) and b) a food source (the ammonia). 

When we talk about cycling, we are talking about the nitrogen cycle, which is where different sources of nitrogen are converted to other forms by bacteria. In our fish tanks, ammonia from the fishes' wastes is broken down to nitrite, and nitrite is broken down to nitrate. Both ammonia and nitrite are toxic in any amount (nitrate is only 'toxic' at very high levels). Now what used to happen is people would get the tank, put the fish in, and then wonder why a couple of days/weeks later the fish died. They had no idea about the chemical processes going on, and in essence the fish poisoned themselves with their wastes because the bacteria to break them down did not grow fast enough. To make it worse they often did not even use a filter.

It is slowly but surely becoming the norm now to perform what we call a 'fishless cycle' - whereby the tank is set up, a suitable filter is used and left running, and an ammonia source is added to the water to feed the bacteria whilst they grow and colonise the tank and filter. Once these bacteria have grown to sufficient numbers, ie any ammonia added is broken down in 24 hours, and any nitrite produced is also broken down within 24 hours (the so called 'double zeros') then and only then is it safe to add fish.

Allowing cycling to progress with the fish as the ammonia source (a 'fish in' cycle) is now considered inhumane because of the suffering and long term damage it can cause the fish (if they even survive it). Alas to get a quick sale many pet stores will fail to alert new fish owners to this issue, and many people who have 'kept' fish years ago will still mistakenly think its ok to have a goldfish in a bowl with no filter (what I usually hear is 'but my goldfish lived for 10 years in that bowl and was fine...' - trust me, that fish was not fine) and either have no knowledge of or refuse to accept any mention of cycling, especially fishless cycling.

So from what you have written it sounds like you put in the bacteria and left them for a month with no food source, meaning they all died way before you added the fish. Then you put the fish in, and within days they were dying from being poisoned by their own wastes.

To the second problem. You didn't mention anywhere about treating the water before you added it. Raw tap water contains chlorine and chloramine, which we add to it to kill bacteria. If you put this tap water into an aquarium... you guessed it, it will kill all the bacteria - the good and the bad. If you rinse anything from the aquarium in tap water, it will kill the good bacteria that has grown on it. A common mistake people make is to think they have to wash the tank decor and filter media and change all the water - but they use raw tap water to do it. It's fine if you want to rinse the filter media (or any decor) - but you must use either 'old' water from the aquarium, or pre-treated tap water. And obviously weekly partial water changes are recommended - but not with raw tap water! - you must use pre-treated water.

By pre-treated I mean using a suitable tap water conditioner (we all like to recommend one called 'seachem prime' as it is by far the best) to treat the clean water from the tap before it goes anywhere near anything to do with your tank or filter. This includes when you do a water change - the new water must be pre-treated.

It sounds to me like you haven't used any water conditioners to either fill your new tank, change the water, or when rinsing your filter out, which means the bacteria you might have grown will have all been killed, exasperating your water chemistry issues.

I must also mention that changing your filter is fine - but you must run the new one along side the old one whilst bacteria grow in the new one (if, indeed, the old filter has any bacteria in it).

The final issue you need to address is your set up. 5 gallons (25 litres) is too small for anything. I mean it. Literally. I think you could keep small inverts in that, or use it as a spawning tank for very small fish, but absolutely not for goldfish.

I said before about goldfish in bowls living for 10 years. A goldfish can actually live for over 20 years and grow to over 15 inches - but only if given the space to do so! A single goldfish needs approximately 200L worth of tank space in order to achieve this, and if we are talking the straight bodied kinds of goldfish they need a pond - no tank will ever be big enough (fancy, round-bodied goldies are thought to be too delicate to survive in a pond). To keep 2 goldfish we are talking 250L. 3 Goldfish = 300L. You get idea idea.

I'm really not joking about goldfish and tank size. Not to mention that they need filtration at double the tank size - so a 200L tank needs a filter rated for a 400L tank, and this is because a goldfish produces a huge amount of ammonia waste.

My advice to you right now - if you really want to keep fish - get yourself a tank of at least say 70L, get a fishless cycle going, and whilst you wait for that to complete (2 weeks if you have some seeding media, 6 weeks or longer with nothing - if it even starts - but you can try your luck with bottled bacteria, try seachem stability I hear it is very good), have a look at alternatives to goldfish - there are some small cold water/temperate fish, but getting a small heater will vastly broaden your choices. There are many hardy species of tropical fish that will suit a smaller tank (I class 70L as reasonably small), and not only do they look great but they are much tougher than you think - more so than today's massively inbred and disease riddled goldfish. Obviously the bigger the tank the better your choices (but obviously the greater the cost too), but if you are determined to have a small tank then you have to face facts that you need to be looking at only the smallest, hardiest of fish species.

I'm sorry if all that sounds quite harsh and blunt - I really don't think its your fault (maybe your petstore gave you terrible advice) - but we on here are only too happy to help you get back on your feet again, and hopefully set up a suitable tank with no more fishy deaths. (If you have any surviving goldfish I suggest re-homing them asap, or take them back to the petstore).

ps if Naomi has posted her reply before me again I will cry... lol... only kidding!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

See experienced people with advise lol


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

I forgot to mention, all of what you described happening to the goldfish sounded like the classic symptoms of ammonia poisoning (pale and listless behaviour, hanging at the surface) BUT those symptoms are also indicative of stress due to not having enough space ('stunting' ie the fish's insides keep trying to grow but the outside cannot because there's not enough space, which causes all manner of blockages and internal disorders, which in turn effect the swim bladder causing sinking/floating/other wobbly swimming behaviours plus bloating due to food blocked in the gut). 

Goldfish are also very sensitive to over feeding, and because of their shape (and the issues with growth space) their intestines often are malformed and get blocked up, which inevitably lead to death. Remember a fish's stomach is around about the size of its eye, so they really only need the tiniest amount of food, and they don't need feeding every day. Warmed crushed peas are a commonly given 'laxative' food - again just a tiny tiny bit - if you suspect your fish is constipated, or epsom salts (which are different from aquarium salt) - they act as a laxative too.

Sadly I suspect your goldies were suffering a mixed bag of problems which all boiled down to lack of biological filtration and tank space.


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> I realize now it was nothing short of miraculous that any of those fish lived for more than a week, much less years. ut: And now, I know so much more, and I kill everything that I put in there. :001_unsure:


Today's pet fish are often so inbred they are simply not hardy enough to survive the kind of things we used to put them through (especially goldfish).


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I was all set to say pretty much the same as Phoenix  but I was pipped at the post  I remember years ago when I used to keep fish (I had a 150 gallon tank  ) I was extremely keen and would read everything I could get my hands upon. Somebody once commented to me, upon noticing my reading material "Fish keeping!! what is there to read about , get water, put fish in water" !!! 

That annoyed me quite a lot

I hope your little fishes are doing better now Dagny


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Cats cats cats said:


> I was all set to say pretty much the same as Phoenix  but I was pipped at the post


Normally Naomi beats me too it - by seconds! 

Alas trying to change everyone's view of fishkeeping is going to take time, and many will continue to resist the basic facts - that fish need adequate space to grow, and that the water needs to be suitably filtered.

The problem lies mostly with the petstores, who are the first point of contact for potential new fish owners - and are who are giving out most of the bad advice just to get a quick sale (no one wants to be told they have to wait 2-6 weeks for a fishless cycle and that they have to shell out £100+ for an adequate set up after all!), and its when it all goes wrong that people turn to the forums... and we here are all too happy to help them pick up the pieces.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Indeed, when I first started my local pet stores answer to everything was "it must be the pH" :lol: :lol: I then found another store and there was a really Knowledgeable chap there , we used to have long conversations about the different species, nitrogen cycle etc , good times


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Lol, I've been at work tonight, so you guys beat me to it! 

Some very sound advice there. I'd say that after a fishless cycle, that tank would be just about big enough for a single betta - but certainly not anything else (especially not goldies!)

In fact, it's exactly the same mistakes I made when starting out.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Responses in purple---I'm not good at breaking quotes up and keeping the format correct 



Phoenix24 said:


> Firstly sorry to hear of your losses, but i'm afraid from what I am reading you may have made a number of the classic beginners mistakes, and I will do my best to help you get sorted.
> 
> Thanks so much for the very long reply. It's extremely helpful and not at all harsh. You are correct--I stupidly followed advice from my petstore, something I would usually not do with a pet I know more about, like dogs, cats and birds, so I'm kicking myself for listening to them for this.
> 
> ...


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Phoenix24 said:


> I forgot to mention, all of what you described happening to the goldfish sounded like the classic symptoms of ammonia poisoning (pale and listless behaviour, hanging at the surface) BUT those symptoms are also indicative of stress due to not having enough space ('stunting' ie the fish's insides keep trying to grow but the outside cannot because there's not enough space, which causes all manner of blockages and internal disorders, which in turn effect the swim bladder causing sinking/floating/other wobbly swimming behaviours plus bloating due to food blocked in the gut).
> 
> Goldfish are also very sensitive to over feeding, and because of their shape (and the issues with growth space) their intestines often are malformed and get blocked up, which inevitably lead to death. Remember a fish's stomach is around about the size of its eye, so they really only need the tiniest amount of food, and they don't need feeding every day. Warmed crushed peas are a commonly given 'laxative' food - again just a tiny tiny bit - if you suspect your fish is constipated, or epsom salts (which are different from aquarium salt) - they act as a laxative too.
> 
> Sadly I suspect your goldies were suffering a mixed bag of problems which all boiled down to lack of biological filtration and tank space.


I think it was more likely the poisoning, although the bloating was indeed an issue. However, I only had each of them about a week--Bubbles lasted a whopping 11 days--so I don't think they were outgrowing the tank yet. And I did try the peas, but no joy there.


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

I can't for the life of my figure out how to quote like you just did there Dagny - please enlighten me someone (and what exactly does the multiquote button do?!)

Anyway. 

You are not the first, and sadly will not be the last 'victim' of bad advice from pet stores. There are a few very knowledgeable fish store owners out there who do take the time to give the right advice - even at the cost of a sale - but the vast majority really are only interested in selling fish (especially the big chains such as pets @ home!).

I'm relieved you at least know about the water conditioner - thankfully most new tanks now are sold with a conditioner of some sort, and some even come with bottled bacteria - but not one will come with a bottle of ammonia and instructions on a fishless cycle! Most will have some sort of leaflet that says, at best, 'monitor your water and change it frequently when the tank is new' - at worst you might get a 'put everything in and wait 3 days before adding fish' - which does absolutely diddly squat for cycling!

The absolute best water conditioner out there on the market right now is Seachem Prime. Most other conditioners will only deal with chlorine and chloramine, and perhaps toxic heavy metals as well, which is fine, but the problem is the likes of say... tap safe... actually break chloramine down and produces ammonia as a result - not helpful in a new set up! Prime does not do this, and in fact is able to not only detoxify chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals with no nasty by products, but also helpfully detoxifies ammonia AND nitrite as well. In fact, used at a 5x dose it can help if you have a nitrite spike (a mini-cycle, sometimes something upsets the filtration and you get a spike in ammonia and then nitrite, but the nitrite takes longer to break down than the ammonia). So I heartily advise you get some prime - you only need the tiniest drop so it lasts forever and is incredibly good value for money (my first bottle lasted me 3 years...)

Yes I think you will be ok with a single betta in that set up, but do not even think about putting the fish in there until you have got all your water chemistry in order. You will need some pure ammonia (eg Jeyes household ammonia) for the fishless cycle, which if you need any more info on we can explain that to you in full. When the cycle is complete you can add the fish straight away.

Rinsing a brand new filter in tap water before its first use is fine, but after that it must never touch raw tap water again (the exception being if you are starting the tank again after say a major disease outbreak that killed all the fish. Then you would bin the media and sterilise everything anyway).

The best test kit to get is the API freshwater master test kit. Its very good value and pretty darn accurate. Always test a sample of tap water as well so you can get a baseline - some tap waters contain traces of ammonia and nitrate, so its helpful to know that if you think you are having a spike.

Finally - alas though the small tanks are sold as 'starter kits' for goldfish, it will never be good enough to just keep upgrading the tank as the fish gets bigger. By the time you get the next tank up the damage is already done. Serious goldfish keepers buy a 200L+ tank and put the baby fish in it. It looks a bit lost in all that space - but its worth it in the end!


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

I can't help with the multiquote button (in fact, I don't even know where it is), but if you press "quote, then at the top of the box there's that little menu bar and I just put the cursor where I want to type, and change the colour of the text on the top row of the menu (it says "fonts", then "sizes", then there's an "A" with a line under it---that's the colour change).

Anyway, thanks again so much. I've checked and I can get this Seachem Prime here (I'm in the US), and since my goldfish stuff is made by API, then I know I can get the test kit as well. As for the ammonia---is it better to add that than to add some fish food to feed the bacteria? As in, did I just screw up again by adding the pre-bottled bacteria and food instead of waiting?

So glad I came into this section (I usually hang out in the Cat sections)--my dream is a salt-water tank, so I KNOW I've got a loooooong ways to go before I can safely attempt that!



Phoenix24 said:


> I can't for the life of my figure out how to quote like you just did there Dagny - please enlighten me someone (and what exactly does the multiquote button do?!)
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> ...


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Cycling with fish food is an alternative method, but using pure ammonia is better as it's easier to keep track of how much you're adding, and how quickly it's being processed by the filter. What you've done already won't harm the cycle, though, and you may already have a few good bacteria in your filter from when you had the goldfish, so that should speed things up 

Here's a good article on how to do a fishless cycle:Tropical Fish Forums UK - Setting up your new Aquarium


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

NaomiM said:


> Cycling with fish food is an alternative method, but using pure ammonia is better as it's easier to keep track of how much you're adding, and how quickly it's being processed by the filter. What you've done already won't harm the cycle, though, and you may already have a few good bacteria in your filter from when you had the goldfish, so that should speed things up
> 
> Here's a good article on how to do a fishless cycle:Tropical Fish Forums UK - Setting up your new Aquarium


Awesome! Thanks for that.

Quick, probably stupid question: I've been told by several people that you can dechlorinate to be safe to just add to the tank simply by letting water sit overnight. Is that true? Or is there more to worry about taking out of the water than just chlorine and that's why you add the conditioner?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I've heard that too, but wouldn't risk it personally. A good dechlorinator will also remove chloramine (which may well be in your water if you're some distance from the water treatment place, kills filter bacteria and can't be removed by standing overnight or boiling). Many will also remove harmful trace metals. As phoenix said, Seachem Prime will do all that plus help minimise the effects of any ammonia or nitrite spikes, and it's really economical since it's so concentrated you really only need a couple of drops each time, so a small bottle lasts ages. So no reason not to, really!


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## jltaylor (Sep 4, 2011)

Hi Dagny

I know have started a new thread but I am new to this section but wanted to say that I have a betta in a Chi and he seems more than happy building bubble nests and coming to say hi whenever I'm near the tank.

Good luck with the cycling it can be very frustrating. It took 8 weeks when I got my 350ltr tank. Was the longest 8 weeks ever!


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

jltaylor said:


> Hi Dagny
> 
> I know have started a new thread but I am new to this section but wanted to say that I have a betta in a Chi and he seems more than happy building bubble nests and coming to say hi whenever I'm near the tank.
> 
> Good luck with the cycling it can be very frustrating. It took 8 weeks when I got my 350ltr tank. Was the longest 8 weeks ever!


Thanks for that. Now that I'm better informed, it actually seems like the perfect betta tank. I just planted some plant bulbs, something I didn't even know existed for aquariums before yesterday--although as a gardener I should have suspected. Anyway, I'm hoping by the time everything is all good to go, some of them will be on their way up and Mr. Fish will have a lovely and healthy place to call home.


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