# Pedigree Cat (Registered or Not?)



## petforum

Hi All, Just trying to find out what peoples opinions are on this. If someone states that a cat (or kitten) is a pedigree cat or kitten, does this mean that it HAS to be registered by a governing body (i.e. GCCF or TICA). Or can it mean that the cat or kitten is just a purebred cat or kitten ?


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## Tigermoon

I believe this question has been asked of trading standards and the answer was that in order to describe a cat as pedigree it MUST have the paperwork to prove it i.e. registration documents from one of the registering bodies.


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## lymorelynn

Yes, as far as I understand it, as @Tigermoon says, a pedigree cat must have the appropriate registration documents to back up the pedigree.
Many years ago I bought an unregistered kitten and was given the above information by the GCCF who advised me to go to trading standards.


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## havoc

lymorelynn said:


> Yes, as far as I understand it, as @Tigermoon says, a pedigree cat must have the appropriate registration documents to back up the pedigree


Has this ever been tested? Have they ever prosecuted someone selling an unregistered kitten as a pedigree? It's a bold statement. Can I be prosecuted for misrepresentation if I declare a litter rather than registering the kittens?


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## lymorelynn

The kitten I bought was being sold as a pedigree but I was given no paperwork at all, being young and naive I rang the GCCF to ask about registration and was told I needed either the registration slip from the breeder or a certificate of mating, without which the kitten couldn't be registered. I was informed that it was against trading standards to sell an animal as a pedigree without one or the other of those, so declaring a litter wouldn't be a problem as kittens could still be registered.
The 'breeder's' other half became very abusive when I mentioned this to them - I didn't pursue the matter and have been very careful to avoid back yard breeders ever since.


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## petforum

Thanks for the advice, do you think this would also be the case for the terms 'Purebred' or 'Pure breed' ? Should cats advertised like this, also be registered with GCCF/TICA ?


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## havoc

The more I think about this the more I don't believe that legally a kitten has to be registered. Pedigree just means traceable ancestry and if that exists then there's no way Trading Standards could intervene. A breeder not handing you the paperwork is a GCCF matter and it's a matter of choice as to whether any breeder complies with their rules which are internal to that organisation and not law.


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## lymorelynn

But surely the point is that without the registration it isn't 'traceable ancestry'? A byb can pick the names of cats from anywhere and make up a pedigree.
Perhaps it would be better to state registered pedigree in advertising.
@petforum I think advertising as purebred amounts to the same thing and encourages backyard breeding.


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## petforum

havoc said:


> The more I think about this the more I don't believe that legally a kitten has to be registered. Pedigree just means traceable ancestry and if that exists then there's no way Trading Standards could intervene. A breeder not handing you the paperwork is a GCCF matter and it's a matter of choice as to whether any breeder complies with their rules which are internal to that organisation and not law.


Hi Havoc, I see your point by traceable ancestry, but if the cats and their parents havent been registered with the GCCF/TICA, and all you have is 1 sheet of paper with a family tree of hand written names, then there is no way of verifying that this ancestry and therefore the pedigree is correct.


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## havoc

OK, let me give you an example. Someone buys male and female registered kittens on the non-active register and breeds from them. The resulting progeny are unregisterable but I'd say those kittens are no less pedigrees for legal purposes. As a breeder who has chosen to follow GCCF rules for decades I'm not saying I like it but I am darn sure I'd rather be defending any action than prosecuting


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## OrientalSlave

If you want a pedigree cat, buy one which is registered. Quite a few kittens are advertised as 'parents are pedigree' meaning (I think) 'parents are registered but kittens are not and cannot be registered'. That means you are dealing with someone who brought a registered pedigree kitten promising to neuter it, but instead they bred from it. Personally those are not the sort of people I would want to be handing over wodges of money to.

I've also noticed that a lot of the unregistered kittens are not that much cheaper than registered kittens, but are 5 or more weeks younger, unvaccinated, often unwormed. By the time you have fed them for 5 weeks, provided litter for 5 weeks, vaccinated and wormed them, you may well have spent more than on a registered pedigree.


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## OrientalSlave

PS the alternative to buying a pedigree kitten is a rescue from a breed rescue.


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## havoc

OrientalSlave said:


> Quite a few kittens are advertised as 'parents are pedigree' meaning (I think) 'parents are registered but kittens are not and cannot be registered'. That means you are dealing with someone who brought a registered pedigree kitten promising to neuter it, but instead they bred from it. Personally those are not the sort of people I would want to be handing over wodges of money to.


Agree wholeheartedly but we're talking moral issues there, not legal ones which Trading Standards could get involved with.


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## chloe1975

I used to work with trading standards officers, I'll see if I can find the documents but a pedigree kitten they advised should have registered parents (either active or non active) but the kitten itself does not need to be registered so Havoc would be correct that two non active registered kittens would still produce a 'pedigree' offspring. If parents are unregistered but could be proved as having a traceable ancestry then the resulting kittens would be 'pure bred'. The registry bodies GCCF, TICA or Fife are not statutory bodies and have no legal powers.


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## QOTN

I assume the question is about advertising and selling pedigree cats or kittens. I always thought the one thing a kitten had to have if being sold as a pedigree was a pedigree certificate stating its ancestors. Since the GCCF is like any other body that registers cats, it has no legal standing. Just because we are members of the GCCF and bound by its rules does not mean anything in legal terms. I am afraid there is no guarantee that a registered kitten is exactly what it is claimed to be. Some breeders wrongly register kittens through ignorance and some do it to deceive but presumably there is a greater chance the kitten's pedigree is approximately correct if it is registered but that is all.


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## lizward

I don't pop up here very often - but I will just make this comment. Neither a pedigree certificate nor registration is any actual proof of the ancestry of a cat, unless the pedigree is related to vet certified DNA parentage testing, and are any of us likely to go down that route???


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## Tigermoon

I suspect this question is being asked as at last P4H's is looking for a fairly easy way to clamp down on the miriad on BYBs that use their site to sell kittens. For me, this is a good thing and probably the easiest method of doing this is to define what a 'pedigree' is in terms of expectations of those beeeding and buying pedigree animals.


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## carly87

PF can have whatever requirements it decides on though, can't it? I mean, it's a privately owned website. Advertising is a gift rather than a right, so if M wants to say that only kittens which are registered can be advertised as pedigrees, then he's entitled to do that!


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## OrientalSlave

Tigermoon said:


> I suspect this question is being asked as at last P4H's is looking for a fairly easy way to clamp down on the miriad on BYBs that use their site to sell kittens. For me, this is a good thing and probably the easiest method of doing this is to define what a 'pedigree' is in terms of expectations of those beeeding and buying pedigree animals.


I missed who was asking, and forgot about the relationship with P4H. Since I think P4H can make their own rules, they could require that all pedigree cats & kittens are registered with the GCCF, TICA, FiFe, CFA. Have I missed a reputable registry?


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## petforum

Yes, the reason I am asking is not really from a legal point of view. We are changing the rules on p4h so that if someone advertises a cat or kitten as pedigree then it must be registered.


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## havoc

petforum said:


> Yes, the reason I am asking is not really from a legal point of view. We are changing the rules on p4h so that if someone advertises a cat or kitten as pedigree then it must be registered.


So the breeder will have to register the kittens *before* they can advertise on your site or will the oft used phrase 'kittens _will be _GCCF/TICA registered' still be allowed?


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## petforum

havoc said:


> So the breeder will have to register the kittens *before* they can advertise on your site or will the oft used phrase 'kittens _will be _GCCF/TICA registered' still be allowed?


No, you can advertise non registered kittens and cats still, you just won't be able to advertise them as 'pedigree cats' unless they are registered.


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## OrientalSlave

petforum said:


> Yes, the reason I am asking is not really from a legal point of view. We are changing the rules on p4h so that* if someone advertises a cat or kitten as pedigree then it must be registered*.


Yipee! Excellent news! The people who won't like it are the BYBs. But there are devils in the detail. 'both parents registered' for example. 'Siamese-type' for another.


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## OrientalSlave

petforum said:


> No, you can advertise non registered kittens and cats still, you just won't be able to advertise them as 'pedigree cats' unless they are registered.


If I advertise at 8 weeks my kittens won't be registered. By a couple of weeks before they leave they will. I don't register until fairly late as it gives the owners a chance to choose the pedigree name. I think you need to allow for that - I'm sure I'm not the only breeder who does this.


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## petforum

OrientalSlave said:


> If I advertise at 8 weeks my kittens won't be registered. By a couple of weeks before they leave they will. I don't register until fairly late as it gives the owners a chance to choose the pedigree name. I think you need to allow for that - I'm sure I'm not the only breeder who does this.


You can advertise them as pedigree, if they will be registered by the time they leave. All the change will do is to stop people advertising non registered cats as 'pedigree' , which many potential buyers may think that means they are registered.


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## QOTN

So they can be advertised as a breed but not as a pedigree? That seems a bit inconsistent.


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## petforum

QOTN said:


> So they can be advertised as a breed but not as a pedigree? That seems a bit inconsistent.


Not sure I understand? Could you expand on this?


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## QOTN

An ad might say 'Siamese and Oriental kittens for sale' or it might say 'Pedigree Siamese and Oriental kittens for sale.' Are you saying you would accept the first but not the second? Surely the first implies they are pedigree. If they were not they should not be called a specific breed.


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## petforum

Just because a cat isn't registered doesn't mean it has to be called a mixed breed. You could have an advert for Persian kittens that aren't registered and they can still be called Persians. However, if you advertised them as pedigree Persian kittens, they would have to be registered.


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## OrientalSlave

petforum said:


> Just because a cat isn't registered doesn't mean it has to be called a mixed breed. You could have an advert for Persian kittens that aren't registered and they can still be called Persians. However, if you advertised them as pedigree Persian kittens, they would have to be registered.


Unfortunately this isn't how it is. We see all sorts of odd-looking cats with vague resemblances to pedigree breeds advertised. My view is that only a kitten which is (or will be) registered should be advertised as of a particular breed.


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## havoc

petforum said:


> You could have an advert for Persian kittens that aren't registered and they can still be called Persians. However, if you advertised them as pedigree Persian kittens, they would have to be registered.


I applaud your efforts to try and clarify things but I'm not so sure this does so, I'm not so sure it doesn't confuse even further. The GCCF doesn't require kittens to be registered, we can declare litters without registering the individual kittens and they're still pedigree kittens. I agree a reasonable definition of a pedigree kitten is one which is registerable - but not necessarily registered.


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## OrientalSlave

havoc said:


> I applaud your efforts to try and clarify things but I'm not so sure this does so, I'm not so sure it doesn't confuse even further. The GCCF doesn't require kittens to be registered, we can declare litters without registering the individual kittens and they're still pedigree kittens. I agree a reasonable definition of a pedigree kitten is one which is registerable - but not necessarily registered.


However we are strongly discouraged from simply declaring kittens, as then they have to go with the paperwork to register them and the new owners can put them on the active register.


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## havoc

OrientalSlave said:


> However we are strongly discouraged from simply declaring kittens, as then they have to go with the paperwork to register them and the new owners can put them on the active register.


All of which becomes less and less relevant as EN gains ground.


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## OrientalSlave

havoc said:


> All of which becomes less and less relevant as EN gains ground.


Indeed it does, but only for the breeders willing to EN, who can find a vet who will EN.


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## havoc

OrientalSlave said:


> Indeed it does, but only for the breeders willing to EN, who can find a vet who will EN.


An ever growing number and in another ten years or so it will be the norm. What reason then not to allow buyers to register their new kitten directly in their own name?


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## petforum

OrientalSlave said:


> Unfortunately this isn't how it is. We see all sorts of odd-looking cats with vague resemblances to pedigree breeds advertised. My view is that only a kitten which is (or will be) registered should be advertised as of a particular breed.


I understand the new rules might not go as far as some people would like but it's an improvement. The new rule is just to prevent people from thinking they are buying a registered cat because it's advertised as pedigree. We will allow a Persian cat to be advertised as a Persian cat even if it is not registered. However, if it was a Persian cross breed, it would have to clearly state in the title and description that it is actually a cross breed.

We do still display wether a cat is registered or not in the key advert facts box, and who they are registered with.


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## carly87

Good! I love how P4H makes a positive stand on this sort of thing!


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## Tigermoon

havoc said:


> What reason then not to allow buyers to register their new kitten directly in their own name?


Quite simply .... Pride. In my case there is no way I will ever allow pet buyers to choose the registered names of my kittens. I theme my litters and name the kittens accordingly. People choose a pet name, most already have a name in mind when they come to view the kittens. Most pet buyers aren't really interested in having the cat in their own name with the registering body though. According to GCCF I still have over 100 cats in my ownership :O


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## havoc

I have a lot more than that and I too have themed litters. It isn't that I'm saying it's the way it has to be, just that there is choice and giving the buyer that choice doesn't in itself make someone a BYB - at least not in my eyes though there are some pretty weird myths have done the rounds about GCCF rules and how things 'should' be.


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## carly87

Oops, the whole thread didn't show up for me before my last comments!

I really don't think this clarifies the issue at all. Rather, it confuses it further. Ok, so say I'm a BYB. I have a registered Persian mum and dad, but they were bought as pets and not on the active register which means that kittens, whilst 100% Persian, cannot be registered. I advertise the kittens as Persians, say mum and dad are full Persian and you can see the papers. I don't bother to mention that kittens can't be registered. I'm not required to. So now buyer comes along, sees my advert and doesn't understand why some say Pedigree Persian and others don't mention it. This could massively disadvantage good breeders too. When I advertise, I will put the kitten's name and a bit about their personality in the ad title, so by your system, the buyer doesn't know that I'm not a BYB by looking at the title. Indeed, they will be led to believe I am one because I don't follow suit with every other breeder on the planet and say something totally without sparkle like "registered pedigree Persian kittens available." If you were a buyer looking for a new pet, would you click on that over something like "Zippy, cheeky, lovable Persian kitten". There's only so much you can fit in a title, and if you'll now have to put "pedigree" to show you're a real breeder whilst the BYBs don't have to worry, you're going to give them an advantage.

Far better in my book to either have a registered pedigree section, then everything else declared as moggs. After all, without the documents, there's no proof that that Persian is a full Persian. Why can't they say Persian type? Or moggy with Persian parents? Could you have a "type" for every breed that is automatically applied if kittens aren't registered? i.e, when someone searches for Persians, they'll get the registered ones, but if they know they don't want to pay the money or want a rescue etc, they can then search for "Persian type". Even if the "Persian" search brought up both, at least it would be very, very clear from the breed description which were the, for want of a better word, proper cats, the latter the naughty BYB cats.


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## Tigermoon

havoc said:


> It isn't that I'm saying it's the way it has to be, just that there is choice and giving the buyer that choice doesn't in itself make someone a BYB


I never said it did.



carly87 said:


> Far better in my book to either have a registered pedigree section, then everything else declared as moggs. After all, without the documents, there's no proof that that Persian is a full Persian. Why can't they say Persian type? Or moggy with Persian parents? Could you have a "type" for every breed that is automatically applied if kittens aren't registered? i.e, when someone searches for Persians, they'll get the registered ones, but if they know they don't want to pay the money or want a rescue etc, they can then search for "Persian type". Even if the "Persian" search brought up both, at least it would be very, very clear from the breed description which were the, for want of a better word, proper cats, the latter the naughty BYB cats.


This is simply too complicated. No web administrators are going to want the overhead of having to see proof that the kitten is registered prior to allowing advertisements, particularly when those adverts are placed for free. At first I though that maybe you should have to supply a copy of your prefix registration card and only kittens bred by these breeders would be acceptable as purebred pedigrees, but of course there are plenty of decent breeders that don't have their own prefix. At the end of the day P4Hs is at least attempting to address the issue of BYBs and that is surely something we should all be embracing!


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## havoc

Tigermoon said:


> At the end of the day P4Hs is at least attempting to address the issue of BYBs


I understand that it's an attempt to differentiate between registered and non registered kittens. If that's the only definition of a 'BYB' then it will seem great but it isn't mine. It does risk putting out the message that all breeders who register kittens are better and that simply isn't true.


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## petforum

carly87 said:


> Oops, the whole thread didn't show up for me before my last comments!
> 
> I really don't think this clarifies the issue at all. Rather, it confuses it further. Ok, so say I'm a BYB. I have a registered Persian mum and dad, but they were bought as pets and not on the active register which means that kittens, whilst 100% Persian, cannot be registered. I advertise the kittens as Persians, say mum and dad are full Persian and you can see the papers. I don't bother to mention that kittens can't be registered. I'm not required to. So now buyer comes along, sees my advert and doesn't understand why some say Pedigree Persian and others don't mention it. This could massively disadvantage good breeders too. When I advertise, I will put the kitten's name and a bit about their personality in the ad title, so by your system, the buyer doesn't know that I'm not a BYB by looking at the title. Indeed, they will be led to believe I am one because I don't follow suit with every other breeder on the planet and say something totally without sparkle like "registered pedigree Persian kittens available." If you were a buyer looking for a new pet, would you click on that over something like "Zippy, cheeky, lovable Persian kitten". There's only so much you can fit in a title, and if you'll now have to put "pedigree" to show you're a real breeder whilst the BYBs don't have to worry, you're going to give them an advantage.
> 
> Far better in my book to either have a registered pedigree section, then everything else declared as moggs. After all, without the documents, there's no proof that that Persian is a full Persian. Why can't they say Persian type? Or moggy with Persian parents? Could you have a "type" for every breed that is automatically applied if kittens aren't registered? i.e, when someone searches for Persians, they'll get the registered ones, but if they know they don't want to pay the money or want a rescue etc, they can then search for "Persian type". Even if the "Persian" search brought up both, at least it would be very, very clear from the breed description which were the, for want of a better word, proper cats, the latter the naughty BYB cats.


Hi, When creating new adverts, P4H does now ask if the cat/kitten is registered and who with, i.e. GCCF/TICA etc, so we will shortly be able to update the website so that when you are searching for cats, you can choose to only see registered cats. I will let you know when we have made this change.


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## OrientalSlave

Are you going to put something next to the selection that explains what 'registered' is about?


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## petforum

OrientalSlave said:


> Are you going to put something next to the selection that explains what 'registered' is about?


Yes, at the moment it just says GCCF, TICA etc.. I could put a 'More Info' popup like the other key facts that has information about what being registered means. I will have a think about adding this. Can anyone suggest what it should say that explains it in simple terms without over complicating things?


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## Tigermoon

petforum said:


> Yes, at the moment it just says GCCF, TICA etc.. I could put a 'More Info' popup like the other key facts that has information about what being registered means. I will have a think about adding this. Can anyone suggest what it should say that explains it in simple terms without over complicating things?


Perhaps something along the lines of:

A kitten/cat whose personal details and lineage is recorded with one of the recognised registering bodies: GCCF, FIFE, CFA, TICA.

It may be worth putting those bodies names in full as well as the acronym due to the fake registries in the UK who are using the same letters to try and con people.


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## carly87

TM, I am not suggesting that you need to see proof of registration before the advert goes up, only that a differentiation, i.e Persian or Persian type would allow things to be clearer for the buyer. At the minute the big loophole is that people can say their kittens are registered when they're not, and my system doesn't address that any better, but it does mean that those who say kittens are registered will come up more readily in searches for "Persian" cats, whereas the unregistered will only come up if a "Persian type" search is performed.


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## havoc

Tigermoon said:


> A kitten/cat whose personal details and lineage is recorded with one of the recognised registering bodies: GCCF, FIFE, CFA, TICA.
> 
> It may be worth putting those bodies names in full as well as the acronym due to the fake registries in the UK who are using the same letters to try and con people.


I do think putting up the full names is a good idea. I prefer the word 'established' to 'recognised'. Registries are not official bodies and the word 'recognised' gives the impression are.


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## annhenry

I think it's right that they should have appropriate registration papers if discribed as pedigree. ...


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## AmsMam

carly87 said:


> There's only so much you can fit in a title, and if you'll now have to put "pedigree" to show you're a real breeder whilst the BYBs don't have to worry, you're going to give them an advantage.





petforum said:


> Hi, When creating new adverts, P4H does now ask if the cat/kitten is registered and who with, i.e. GCCF/TICA etc.


Maybe, then, the system could automatically add in a label next to the title when those details are provided? So @carly87 could put the title she wants but it would still show "Registered pedigree" (or whatever) right there next to the search result. (A bit like the "Staff Member" badge @petforum has on here, or the little blue ticks Twitter uses to show they've verified the owner of an account.)

To me, that would actually then give it a bit more weight than just the advertiser putting the right words in the title. Especially if you could also choose to filter the search results, so you could choose to only see adverts where details of registration had been provided.


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## havoc

This is all very laudable I'm sure but presumably it will just be a box ticking exercise and either kittens are (or will be) registered or the less than honest can just tick a box and lie if they feel it's worthwhile.


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## QOTN

The organisations trying to influence the government to regulate cat breeding seem to be concentrating their efforts on making breeders register with local authorities (presumably being given an identification number in the process) and/or putting restrictions on how sites can advertise kittens.


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## brendan Donegan

[QUOTE="lizward, post: 1064593985, member: 1537", ]I don't pop up here very often - but I will just make this comment. Neither a pedigree certificate nor registration is any actual proof of the ancestry of a cat, unless the pedigree is related to vet certified DNA parentage testing, and are any of us likely to go down that route???[/QUOTE]

Oh dear; if I have understood you correctly, (apologies if I have not) then, adopter beware (caveat emptor). This highlights, for me, the importance of careful research and the need to get to know the breeder and build trust (on both sides). On the other hand, surely forger/breeders, so to speak, must be very rare and they would not get away with it for long?


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## lizward

It doesn't have to be deliberate misrepresentation. Suppose a breeder has two girls who give birth at the same time and combine litters (as they invariably do, given the chance), and that the genetics can't tell you which kittens belong to which mother. There are three options then: 1. DNA test every kitten (expensive) 2. Sell both litters with no papers or 3. Make your best guess as far as any going just for pets are concerned and only DNA test any you definitely want to breed from.

Or perhaps you have a young stud in the house and don't realise he is yet functioning (I had one once function before he was four months old!)

Now bear in mind that DNA parentage testing for cats has not been available for very long and that the breeder has no idea at all whether there has been any mix up in the pedigrees of any cats she has bought in. And bear in mind that any mix up could be 30 generations back ....

Liz


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## brendan Donegan

OrientalSlave said:


> Indeed it does, but only for the breeders willing to EN, who can find a vet who will EN.


I am finding this post very interesting and informative. I have viewed the websites of twenty plus breeders, across the three breeds which are of interest to me. Without exception they state that their kittens will be neutered before leaving for their forever homes. However, they do not all state that their babies will come with a multi-generation pedigree document.
Is this omission significant or does it go without saying that there will be a pedigree document?
Thank you.


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## brendan Donegan

lizward said:


> It doesn't have to be deliberate misrepresentation. Suppose a breeder has two girls who give birth at the same time and combine litters (as they invariably do, given the chance), and that the genetics can't tell you which kittens belong to which mother. There are three options then: 1. DNA test every kitten (expensive) 2. Sell both litters with no papers or 3. Make your best guess as far as any going just for pets are concerned and only DNA test any you definitely want to breed from.
> 
> Or perhaps you have a young stud in the house and don't realise he is yet functioning (I had one once function before he was four months old!)
> 
> Now bear in mind that DNA parentage testing for cats has not been available for very long and that the breeder has no idea at all whether there has been any mix up in the pedigrees of any cats she has bought in. And bear in mind that any mix up could be 30 generations back ....
> 
> Liz


Please forgive me if I digress from the main purpose of this thread a little: I notice in the ads that some advertisers give their cattery names whilst other, although describing their litters as pedigree, simply state "Private Advertiser". Should I draw any inference from this anonymity? In any case, I only use the site to collect breeder names for ongoing research for eventual direct contact - I would not seek to buy the advertised kitten. Most breeder websites speak of ongoing waiting lists which one is invited to join I therefore wonder how there are "reputable kittens" available in ads. I am on a learning curve here having only ever owned moggies so please be gentle.


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## OrientalSlave

brendan Donegan said:


> I am finding this post very interesting and informative. I have viewed the websites of twenty plus breeders, across the three breeds which are of interest to me. Without exception they state that their kittens will be neutered before leaving for their forever homes. However, they do not all state that their babies will come with a multi-generation pedigree document.
> Is this omission significant or does it go without saying that there will be a pedigree document?
> Thank you.


If you take the trouble to read the information on the GCCF website you would know that anyone selling a kitten registered with them should also come with a pedigree. 4 generations is pretty normal.

http://www.gccfcats.org/Buying-a-kitten


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## havoc

All GCCF registered kittens must have a pedigree certificate showing at least three generations including registration numbers, some breeders choose to give more. Whether somebody shows themselves as a private adveriser or chooses to advertise their prefix is purely a matter of choice and in itself isn't indicative of anything. You still need to carry out due diligence. Prefixes (cattery names) are purchased, not earned.


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## lymorelynn

brendan Donegan said:


> Please forgive me if I digress from the main purpose of this thread a little: I notice in the ads that some advertisers give their cattery names whilst other, although describing their litters as pedigree, simply state "Private Advertiser". Should I draw any inference from this anonymity? In any case, I only use the site to collect breeder names for ongoing research for eventual direct contact - I would not seek to buy the advertised kitten. Most breeder websites speak of ongoing waiting lists which one is invited to join I therefore wonder how there are "reputable kittens" available in ads. I am on a learning curve here having only ever owned moggies so please be gentle.


A private advertiser may have just started out in breeding and have no registered prefix (no cattery name) or they may be back yard breeders, no way of telling really.
Breeders do not always update their websites, so while the website says 'join the waiting list' there may well be kittens available


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## lizward

brendan Donegan said:


> Please forgive me if I digress from the main purpose of this thread a little: I notice in the ads that some advertisers give their cattery names whilst other, although describing their litters as pedigree, simply state "Private Advertiser". Should I draw any inference from this anonymity? In any case, I only use the site to collect breeder names for ongoing research for eventual direct contact - I would not seek to buy the advertised kitten. Most breeder websites speak of ongoing waiting lists which one is invited to join I therefore wonder how there are "reputable kittens" available in ads. I am on a learning curve here having only ever owned moggies so please be gentle.


Pets4homes requires you to register differently if you advertise more than three cats in a year I think, or something like that. That could explain it perhaps. Waiting lists? Depends on the breed. In a breed where demand far outstrips supply (such as Burmese) you may indeed have to wait. For a breed where supply exceeds demand (lesser known breeds) there are no waiting lists because people do not want something they do not know exists.


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## havoc

lymorelynn said:


> A private advertiser may have just started out in breeding and have no registered prefix (no cattery name) or they may be back yard breeders, no way of telling really.


Or they may just choose not to add such details. In years gone by I have had the odd cancellation and advertised a kitten on such websites. I always advertised as a private advertiser because I didn't consider myself to be anything else, certainly not in any way public or profesional.


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## havoc

lizward said:


> Pets4homes requires you to register differently if you advertise more than three cats in a year I think


I never knew that - seriously three cats or do you mean three litters?


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## lymorelynn

havoc said:


> I never knew that - seriously three cats or do you mean three litters?


I didn't know that either


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## brendan Donegan

OrientalSlave said:


> If you take the trouble to read the information on the GCCF website you would know that anyone selling a kitten registered with them should also come with a pedigree. 4 generations is pretty normal.
> 
> http://www.gccfcats.org/Buying-a-kitten


Thank you.


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## brendan Donegan

havoc said:


> All GCCF registered kittens must have a pedigree certificate showing at least three generations including registration numbers, some breeders choose to give more. Whether somebody shows themselves as a private adveriser or chooses to advertise their prefix is purely a matter of choice and in itself isn't indicative of anything. You still need to carry out due diligence. Prefixes (cattery names) are purchased, not earned.


Thank you.

I notice that GCCF, oft referred on this forum, is not the only "register". May take it that it is the gold standard where registration is concerned and that I ought therefore make it a preference when seeking a kitten?


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## brendan Donegan

lymorelynn said:


> A private advertiser may have just started out in breeding and have no registered prefix (no cattery name) or they may be back yard breeders, no way of telling really.
> Breeders do not always update their websites, so while the website says 'join the waiting list' there may well be kittens available


Thank you for that. So, if I understand correctly, "Private Avertiser" does not mean the advertiser is not a reputable breeder but on the other hand, could also be a BYB. However, if they state their cattery name one does have a better opportunity to check them out or even recognise them from ones previous research.


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## lymorelynn

brendan Donegan said:


> Thank you for that. So, if I understand correctly, "Private Avertiser" does not mean the advertiser is not a reputable breeder but on the other hand, could also be a BYB. However, if they state their cattery name one does have a better opportunity to check them out or even recognise them from ones previous research.


Yes. You can see from the advert details though if the advertisers registers their kittens even if they are using an administrative prefix (one issued by the governing body when the breeder doesn't have their own or sometimes if the breeder doesn't want to use their own)


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## havoc

Buying a prefix doesn't make someone a good breeder but the breeders you find through breed clubs are likely going to adhere to the standards set by their chosen registry. There's nothing magic about the GCCF other than they are UK based and do have a more 'hands on' approach than the international registries. Recognising a prefix is no guarantee if all your research to date is internet based. Seeing a name pop up regularly on the pedigrees of cats you seen and like the look is a good reason to seek out that line but there's only one way to check out a breeder and that's to visit.


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## brendan Donegan

havoc said:


> Buying a prefix doesn't make someone a good breeder but the breeders you find through breed clubs are likely going to adhere to the standards set by their chosen registry. There's nothing magic about the GCCF other than they are UK based and do have a more 'hands on' approach than the international registries. Recognising a prefix is no guarantee if all your research to date is internet based. Seeing a name pop up regularly on the pedigrees of cats you seen and like the look is a good reason to seek out that line but there's only one way to check out a breeder and that's to visit.


Understood and thank you. And yes; once I have completed the armchair research, I will be seeking meetings with, say, three breeders, at least to start with;-)


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## havoc

I found this a little while back - far from perfect but it's a decent starting point for anyone who hasn't bought a pedigree kitten before
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.u...er-s-guide-to-buying-a-kitten(1-Viewing)-nbsp


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## brendan Donegan

havoc said:


> I found this a little while back - far from perfect but it's a decent starting point for anyone who hasn't bought a pedigree kitten before
> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.u...er-s-guide-to-buying-a-kitten(1-Viewing)-nbsp


Thank you Havoc. I am sure this will be helpful . I have also purchased books on the three breeds that have so beguiled me and in which advice is given on finding the right kitten and also some of the pitfalls to be avoided.


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## havoc

lymorelynn said:


> I didn't know that either


Well those of us who are long in the tooth know there's still plenty to learn


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## lymorelynn

havoc said:


> Well those of us who are long in the tooth know there's still plenty to learn


Oh there is indeed  We learn something new every day


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## lizward

havoc said:


> I never knew that - seriously three cats or do you mean three litters?


It seems to be fairly new. Here is the wording. I was wrong, it's only TWO pets you can advertise in 12 months without either a breeder or rescue account

"*Standard Account* - This is the default account type and should be used by people who want access to the extra features on Pets4Homes including the ability to advertise less than 3 different pets in a 12 month period.

*Breeder Account* - This account type should be used by hobby breeders or frequent advertisers who will be advertising 3 or more different pets in a 12 month period. You will be able to upload a logo and breeder profile on your account.

*Rescue Centre Account* - This account type should be used by UK only Rescue Centres. You will be able to upload a logo and your rescue centre information on your account."

from https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/register/

Liz


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## havoc

Makes sense. They are pointedly referring to* hobby* breeders for a breeder account. 'Tis years since I last used that site so I don't know how recent those changes are.


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## lizward

brendan Donegan said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I notice that GCCF, oft referred on this forum, is not the only "register". May take it that it is the gold standard where registration is concerned and that I ought therefore make it a preference when seeking a kitten?


No, much depends on the breed. Some breeds (or colours or patterns within breeds) are recognised by some registries but not others. For example in my case, I breed a group of cats descended from an original cross between a Burmese and a Chinchilla. Now in GCCF they are called Asians and you cannot now use the Chinchilla at all but you can outcross to certain other breeds. In FIFe you can't call the longhaired progeny, or non-silver progeny, Burmillas, and you can't outcross to the other breeds. In TICA you can use the chinchilla freely and you can register longhairs, but you can only register silver ones for show and if you use the other breed outcrosses you have to go three generations before they count as Burmillas. I have some registered with all three registries just because I can't register them all with one. Also the GCCF show format does not suit me at all because I am crippled with arthritis, whereas FIFe shows I can still do.

So, some breeders will be registered with another registry because that registry recognises breeds or colours that GCCF doesn't, and some will be registered with another registry just because they prefer the shows (TICA shows are very popular)

liz


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## lizward

havoc said:


> Makes sense. They are pointedly referring to* hobby* breeders for a breeder account. 'Tis years since I last used that site so I don't know how recent those changes are.


Yes but there is no large breeder option. What they are saying is that ALL breeders, however small, need to use a breeder account.


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## havoc

lizward said:


> What they are saying is that ALL breeders, however small, need to use a breeder account.


I have no inherent objection. A breeder who uses it very occasionally for a remaining kitten/cancellation doesn't have to have a breeder account and because they make the distinction of hobby breeder it can't hurt those who advertise all their kittens this way.


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## brendan Donegan

lizward said:


> No, much depends on the breed. Some breeds (or colours or patterns within breeds) are recognised by some registries but not others. For example in my case, I breed a group of cats descended from an original cross between a Burmese and a Chinchilla. Now in GCCF they are called Asians and you cannot now use the Chinchilla at all but you can outcross to certain other breeds. In FIFe you can't call the longhaired progeny, or non-silver progeny, Burmillas, and you can't outcross to the other breeds. In TICA you can use the chinchilla freely and you can register longhairs, but you can only register silver ones for show and if you use the other breed outcrosses you have to go three generations before they count as Burmillas. I have some registered with all three registries just because I can't register them all with one. Also the GCCF show format does not suit me at all because I am crippled with arthritis, whereas FIFe shows I can still do.
> 
> So, some breeders will be registered with another registry because that registry recognises breeds or colours that GCCF doesn't, and some will be registered with another registry just because they prefer the shows (TICA shows are very popular)
> 
> liz


Thank you Liz, very interesting.


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## OrientalSlave

brendan Donegan said:


> Thank you for that. So, if I understand correctly, "Private Avertiser" does not mean the advertiser is not a reputable breeder but on the other hand, could also be a BYB. However, if they state their cattery name one does have a better opportunity to check them out or even recognise them from ones previous research.


Having a name guarantees nothing, neither does 'Private Advertiser'. You have to take everyone advertising on their merits.


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## lillytheunicorn

brendan Donegan said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I notice that GCCF, oft referred on this forum, is not the only "register". May take it that it is the gold standard where registration is concerned and that I ought therefore make it a preference when seeking a kitten?


GCCF is the largest register in the U.K. But relatively no different to CFA, FIFe/FB and TICA. I am in the process of registering my cattery with FIFe, via Felis Brittanica (FIFe UK), but I can register kittens with GCCF via an admin prefix as my girl is also GCCF registered. Rather than spend another £75ish on a cattery name. I registered the cattery with FIFe as registered queens have to have the litter primarily registered with FIFe if you are a member so they can keep a track on the number of litters they have.

For a pet the difference is minimal, where showing is concerned the breed standard differ slightly so what wins at GCCF might not do as well at TICA. Some breeds are not recognised by all the registries, I.e you won't find a GCCF American curl or a FIFe Asian


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## OrientalSlave

lillytheunicorn said:


> GCCF is the largest register in the U.K. But relatively no different to CFA, FIFe/FB and TICA. I am in the process of registering my cattery with FIFe, via Felis Brittanica (FIFe UK), *but I can register kittens with GCCF via an admin prefix as my girl is also GCCF registered*. Rather than spend another £75ish on a cattery name. I registered the cattery with FIFe as registered queens have to have the litter primarily registered with FIFe if you are a member so they can keep a track on the number of litters they have.
> 
> For a pet the difference is minimal, where showing is concerned the breed standard differ slightly so what wins at GCCF might not do as well at TICA. Some breeds are not recognised by all the registries, I.e you won't find a GCCF American curl or a FIFe Asian


And so long as you are careful about how long the name is, you can always register your kittens as (eg.) 'adxxxon prefix-name'. 'ad' for administrative prefix, 'xxx' changes each year, 'on' for online and using the hyphen to separate your prefix and the cat's pedigree name means you won't fall foul of the repeated word rule. Of course both parents have to be registered active with the GCCF for you to be able to register a kitten with them.


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## brendan Donegan

lillytheunicorn said:


> GCCF is the largest register in the U.K. But relatively no different to CFA, FIFe/FB and TICA. I am in the process of registering my cattery with FIFe, via Felis Brittanica (FIFe UK), but I can register kittens with GCCF via an admin prefix as my girl is also GCCF registered. Rather than spend another £75ish on a cattery name. I registered the cattery with FIFe as registered queens have to have the litter primarily registered with FIFe if you are a member so they can keep a track on the number of litters they have.
> 
> For a pet the difference is minimal, where showing is concerned the breed standard differ slightly so what wins at GCCF might not do as well at TICA. Some breeds are not recognised by all the registries, I.e you won't find a GCCF American curl or a FIFe Asian


Thank you very much for this.


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## brendan Donegan

OrientalSlave said:


> And so long as you are careful about how long the name is, you can always register your kittens as (eg.) 'adxxxon prefix-name'. 'ad' for administrative prefix, 'xxx' changes each year, 'on' for online and using the hyphen to separate your prefix and the cat's pedigree name means you won't fall foul of the repeated word rule. Of course both parents have to be registered active with the GCCF for you to be able to register a kitten with them.


Thank you very much.


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## lillytheunicorn

OrientalSlave said:


> And so long as you are careful about how long the name is, you can always register your kittens as (eg.) 'adxxxon prefix-name'. 'ad' for administrative prefix, 'xxx' changes each year, 'on' for online and using the hyphen to separate your prefix and the cat's pedigree name means you won't fall foul of the repeated word rule. Of course both parents have to be registered active with the GCCF for you to be able to register a kitten with them.


Thank you, I am definitely going for short pedigree names, as it takes forever to write Skye's full pedigree name, and it's too long for GCCF so got bits chopped out when I imported her in. I think if it's only one kitten that is wanted GCCF registered it's actually easier and cheaper if both parents are GCCF registered to import them in. As it's £5 per litter and £18 per kitten for non prefix registrations or £18 to import them in.


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