# Dog 'attacks' other dogs out on a walk



## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Our collie, 2 yrs old and a rescue dog, is fine in most ways but if we meet any dogs who are actually running or bounding about when we are on a walk, his hackles come right up (all the way down his back sometimes) and he lunges at them, chases them barking and growling... we are worried he will bite a dog one day.

If other dogs are walking, he will trot up (hackles raised though) and just sniff, say hello and leave them alone - but he cannot bear to see other dogs running around.

It is getting quite embarrassing and although his recall is generally good it is just this one situation where he won't come back. Some say it is the collie herding instinct, someone said that it was nothing of the kind... and we should get a muzzle.

All we know is, we need to stop this behaviour but nothing we do works, unless we are playing a throwing game with his favourite toy - when he is then so obsessed with it, he isn't interested in any other dog! But then he doesn't even trot around and relieve himself - all he will do is fixate on whether we are going to throw the toy or not.

If anyone has any ideas they would be gratefully received - he appears to other dog owners that he is a very aggressive, nasty dog which he doesn't normally appear to be (he is soft as a brush in all other circumstances). 

We want to stop this behaviour before he does bite a dog or annoy a dog so much that he is properly attacked himself. Is it the collie herding instinct and if so how do we control it?

PS This behaviour only became apparent in the last couple of months - we have had him since last July and he was traumatised when we got him and had no confidence. Since gaining confidence this trait has emerged.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> Our collie, 2 yrs old and a rescue dog, is fine in most ways but if we meet any dogs who are actually running or bounding about when we are on a walk, his hackles come right up (all the way down his back sometimes) and he lunges at them, chases them barking and growling... we are worried he will bite a dog one day


Welcome back!  Given the history (from last years posts), it's hardly surprising he's not socially confident, the hackles show he's tense and uncertain in the situations even where he's greeting. Dogs running about are exciting, I can't tell you how many on leash dogs fixate on us, when we're playing. I often pause to let them go by, rather than have owner struggle to haul around a reactive dog.

Personally if you can I'd find a good dog socialisation professional if you can afford to do it.

Until then I'd keep him on a line, where he may have such encounters, but try and build counter conditioning, so after he's met another dog, or passed one calmly at a distance, give him a fun game (likely much better than food when he's out). Try and keep him under threshold, so the growling and lunging, isn't practised keeping it fluent.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks alot - we put him on the lead once he has showed this behaviour but to be honest we never know which dogs he is going to chase and 'attack'. Is it lack of socialisation as a pup or could it actually be the herding instinct? He was dumped by the farmer as being no good with the sheep, we're wondering if he was doing this type of thing with them too!

It just seems so tough on him to keep him on a line when he loves to run.

We are surprised he is like this because where we got him from, he was surrounded by other dogs in a very friendly rescue place that didn't keep them all locked up all day.

We will try and find a socialisation expert but as you say, it is expensive.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> Thanks alot - we put him on the lead once he has showed this behaviour but to be honest we never know which dogs he is going to chase and 'attack'. Is it lack of socialisation as a pup or could it actually be the herding instinct? He was dumped by the farmer as being no good with the sheep, we're wondering if he was doing this type of thing with them too!


I see the "herding" as a controlling type of play, when you run the Collie tries to head you off. Mine if I let him, will get in front of squirrels and stop them climbing trees, they need to do a rolling scissors manoevre to escape (sending him a dummy first). I see the same at times with dogs during play, where he'll run alongside or dash about in front, excited, head low, showing teeth and barking perhaps, but staying off rather than closing to nip. Obnoxious, but fortunately he's built up enough credit with other owners, and shows enough restraint, that they worry less than I do. (Though he actually caused a (larger) Spinone to back itself off a Ha-ha wall and fall into a ditch, which we forget was there the other day, right as I was explaining why I needed to intervene soon! Soft wet landing, phew! )

But to me, from a distance looking, it sounds more like the movement is putting him over-threshold and he's way too excited when he's getting in there. I worked hard on being able to interrupt play, and watch how the other dog reacts to. Good play has pauses. Running around with multiple dogs, dashing about, is likely expecting too much. Him (unusually) not listening to you, supports that idea.

Is the growl, a normal distancing growl, or does it sound more like a snarl, rather fierce? I've seen what I call a growl and lunge, with snapping and barking, which is fear based aggression in my guy's litter mate. It was definitely deterring the other dog from approaching and she'd pass up playing with any dog but her brother. But if he's playing and excited, it's very controlled and the other dog knows the difference, not all dog walkers appreciate it though.


> It just seems so tough on him to keep him on a line when he loves to run.


Looked into cycle attachments, so he can trot along with you? I take a mountain bike over grass and stuff. He tends to "herd" if I go too fast as that's exciting, but it didn't take too long for him calm, and he enjoys it more than me walking.


> We are surprised he is like this because where we got him from, he was surrounded by other dogs in a very friendly rescue place that didn't keep them all locked up all day.
> 
> We will try and find a socialisation expert but as you say, it is expensive.


Sounds nice, but didn't you have problems taking him out at first? A break from contact and working through other issues may have lead to him becoming less dog sociable.

I don't know how much the local one charges, they do have supervised group walks occasionally, and a fearful young adult bitch was allowed to mix with the non-threatening puppies, to have fun, recovering from an attack.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes when we got him he was so terrified he didn't want to go out anywhere so we had to take it nice and slow.

He is fine now, doesn't like having his lead put on (tends to shy away) but loves his walks. Basically he has come on in leaps and bounds, we've taught him to sit, lie, working on the stay; and the recall which is usually spot on unless he is chasing a dog!

We did wonder about basic training classes to try and get him to accept other dogs around him but felt we were paying for stuff we knew how to do ourselves, e.g. the sit, come, lie etc.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Far better to socialise the dog first, and with the OK, then go to basic obedience. THere have been threads discussing special classes, using screens etc, to keep the dogs calm. But you'll enjoy the classes a lot more if he's calmer, even if you could do it at home.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

It does sound that he is obsessive to the point he just cant help himself, running jumping dogs over stimulate him so he cant do anything else but chase, and he sounds obsessive with the chasing balls too. The more he does it, the harder its going to be to get him to calm down.

Maybe you need to keep him on a long line, so at least you have control and a break to stop him and halt him in his tracks at least for the time being, if he realises he cant do it it might at least begin to break the pattern.

When you do throw toys, do you just contantly keep throwing them so, he constantly just keeps the chase up, if you do that will just hype him to the point he is totally obssesed and feed his habit so too speak. Sounds like whaat could be possibly happening with running dogs too, he just cant switch off and has no self control.

Maybe try controlled play, when throwing a toy, to try to teach him impulse control.
Try getting him to sit, then wait before you throw it, building up the wait time before you throw, so he does have to exercise some self control, before being able to chase. This way he will have to calm down each time and control himself before he has the next chase. That way it wont be constantly chasing and getting over stimulated or it may at least be a start.

if you are going to try the long line, instead of giving him free reign on it, maybe keep winding him in and make him do some walking to heel periodically throughout the walk, before letting him run off again, you could do it everytime you start to see the excitement build too much, wind him in and maybe get him to do a few sits and downs, and bit of walking to heel, use treats as well, so that instead of getting into the totally over excited behaviour, he has to do wind downs and re-focusing on something else.

Hopefully some of this might give you some ideas to use to give him some self control, and stopping some of the obsessive behaviour.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Yep. I limit fetch and encourage calm, doggy activities like sniffing around and mixing with older calmer dogs.

Most of the Collie owners, play way too much fetch. THere's also the general tendency to concentrate on the physical mileage aspect, run around, and not have calming breaks, to practice being clam outdoors.

Being obsessive in comparison to any other type of dog, is kind of normal BC behaviour though, they are bred to be lean mean herding elite with total focus on a job.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> It does sound that he is obsessive to the point he just cant help himself, running jumping dogs over stimulate him so he cant do anything else but chase, and he sounds obsessive with the chasing balls too. The more he does it, the harder its going to be to get him to calm down.
> 
> Maybe you need to keep him on a long line, so at least you have control and a break to stop him and halt him in his tracks at least for the time being, if he realises he cant do it it might at least begin to break the pattern.
> 
> ...


Hi, yes, he is obsessed with the toy throwing game. We try to limit it - say 5 mins at a time then tell him 'off you go' which he now understands and he goes off to trot round. He is always on the alert though to see if we are going to throw it again - someone said well that's what you want, isn't it? A dog with total focus on you? It does bother me though that he is so hooked on that type of game.

Thanks for the advice re winding him in etc; the only time he shows excessive excitement (when not out with the toy) is when he spots another dog in the distance, running around.... at all other times he is well behaved and his recall is perfect.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Far better to socialise the dog first, and with the OK, then go to basic obedience. THere have been threads discussing special classes, using screens etc, to keep the dogs calm. But you'll enjoy the classes a lot more if he's calmer, even if you could do it at home.


Yes, it would be very disruptive if he started chasing the dogs in the class!

I will do a search for any other helpful threads too.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Yep. I limit fetch and encourage calm, doggy activities like sniffing around and mixing with older calmer dogs.
> 
> Most of the Collie owners, play way too much fetch. THere's also the general tendency to concentrate on the physical mileage aspect, run around, and not have calming breaks, to practice being clam outdoors.
> 
> Being obsessive in comparison to any other type of dog, is kind of normal BC behaviour though, they are bred to be lean mean herding elite with total focus on a job.


I get what you say about the lean mean herding elite, but they must have impulse control and focus too not just on the sheep, because they need to follow the handlers, whistled and verbal insturctions too at times surely. So to work you couldnt have one totally obsessed with the chase and herding, it must be controlled
some of the time, and not just all instinctive surely?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just remembered a brilliant book written by carol price who has and trains border collies herself, she has also got experience with rescue dogs too I believe.
Might be worth looking into. Its called Understanding the Border Collie.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> they must have impulse control and focus too not just on the sheep, because they need to follow the handlers, whistled and verbal insturctions too at times surely. So to work you couldnt have one totally obsessed with the chase and herding, it must be controlled
> some of the time, and not just all instinctive surely?


Oh totally, but then they're obsessive about that to!

Honestly, I play a crazy game of tug (often whilst riding a bicycle) using a line, and give commands, including "wait", "lie down" and "take" as well as a "heave". Then our fetch games, look like a sheepdog working quite often, depending on his sense of the direction we're going in, and where I throw. He likes seemingly having the direction and challenges, more than just an all out game.

I've worked on "That'll do!" particularly lately, so he goes off for a sniff and such, to end his work-play sessions cleanly.

The fact that the dog was worked to, means it has this experience of the thrill of chasing round after sheep, self rewarding stuff, and it's not like it's channelled into some substitute, like I've done with Freddie. The dog's probably mad keen to chase, so I wouldn't think it's surprising if he's not calmly got a lid on it.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Just remembered a brilliant book written by carol price who has and trains border collies herself, she has also got experience with rescue dogs too I believe.
> Might be worth looking into. Its called Understanding the Border Collie.


Thanks, I will try and get a copy. I've had a BC before - she was a rescue dog too, but had no problems with her.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Oh totally, but then they're obsessive about that to!
> 
> Honestly, I play a crazy game of tug (often whilst riding a bicycle) using a line, and give commands, including "wait", "lie down" and "take" as well as a "heave". Then our fetch games, look like a sheepdog working quite often, depending on his sense of the direction we're going in, and where I throw. He likes seemingly having the direction and challenges, more than just an all out game.
> 
> ...


Yes we have a clear separation between the play sessions and the rest of the walk - he knows our phrase for it too... but it is only when he is not obsessed with the throw toy, that if he meets other dogs who are running about (not walking) that he will chase, hackles up, barking and growling.

All other times he is fine.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Chasing, eye-stalking and all that would def be considered being turned on by the prey thing but there is a socialisation deficit with this dog and as such I am not wholly convinced.

Hackling is linked with arousal. The stiff approach and uncertain greeting is certainly cause for concern.

Prey interest clicking in will usually elicit eye stalking, crouching but may escalate in some dogs and present as reactivity.

Don't get too bogged down in breed and breed specific traits - there are lots of BCs without an ounce of prey attraction in them.
Rather, train the behaviour infront of you.

We are seeing difficulty to self calm, a lack of self control and a socialisation deficit when it coems to greeting and being able to focus on you in the presence of other dogs.

If you have an intense ball chaser use this as a self control exercise rather than a means to get him more wound up and physically exercised.

If you are worried that your dog is a danger to other dogs, your dog must be leashed and under control in their presence.

Concentrate on teaching calm focus rather than trying to turn your dog into a social butterfly, which he may never become.

More on teaching calmness and self control here: Crazy Canines | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Also strongly recommend the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt as its all about teaching behaviours that you sound as if you and your dog need!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> He is always on the alert though to see if we are going to throw it again - someone said well that's what you want, isn't it? A dog with total focus on you? It does bother me though that he is so hooked on that type of game


He sounds like he's doing really well considering what you began with! I keep the toys in back pack, and just sliding it off my shoulder acts as a postive interruptor. If he's playing with another dog, then I have to stay still not to bust it.

Whilst what tripod says is very true, your guy sounds quite typical BC though really 

All this talk about impulse control, got me deciding to try adding a countermand to chase object cue, with a "Stop!" and see if he got it in the game context, then re-OK the pounce. He got it almost immediately, just a bit surprised the first time. I personally haven't ever seen another breed with so much drive under control and quck to learn as that.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Other good impulse control games are:

Throw the ball while the dog is in a wait, he can't go to get it until you release him. You have to start by holding the collar, then build it up so you no longer have to restrain the dog, and can put the dog in the wait at distance.

Throw the ball while the dog is in a wait. Walk away sideways then call the dog to you. After the recall you release the dog to fetch the ball. You can build this up to using multiple recall/waits, or combined with other tricks such as down roll-over. Seriously impresses other people in the park!

Put the dog in a wait, walk away then drop the ball on the ground. Continue walking away then call the dog to you - my command for this is come-leave. The dog has to come to you past the ball without picking it up. When he's done that, release to get the ball and have a play.

You can think up other stuff along the same lines. It's much more fun for the dog than just belting off after a ball and puts in place a good foundation for other training.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks all - very helpful, really appreciated.

Yes Rob, we feel we have come a long way with him since we got him last July when he was terrified of even going out through the door.

He sits, lies and stays quite well (more work needed on the stay). Main probs are the one I am writing about at the moment and also the fact that we still can't properly get him to accept our going out through the back door without barking the house down, although he is slightly better now.

The other one? Ha. If my partner and I dare to cuddle or even put an arm round each other (or even the cat!) he is very jealous and jumps up on his hind legs and tries to push us apart - panting alot, so obviously distressed by our close contact. He places one paw on me and one on my partner as if to say, hey folks, time to separate and let me in!! Still trying to work out how to deal with that because the down command falls on deaf ears.

Thanks for the suggestions and the link to the other site for calmness advice - I have bookmarked it and will read it.

As for the chasing other dogs in an aggressive way, when I spoke to a BC 'expert' I was told that we shouldn't even be taking him out yet, because he cannot cope with it! We have had him since last July and I can't really agree with that line of thinking.... he loves his walks, he loves his play. When we got him he didn't even know how to play... he had never been interacted with never mind fed properly. (He didn't even have enough muscle or flesh in his neck to put a chip in... we had to wait till good feeding, care and love took effect!)


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> when I spoke to a BC 'expert' I was told that we shouldn't even be taking him out yet, because he cannot cope with it! We have had him since last July and I can't really agree with that line of thinking.... he loves his walks, he loves his play. When we got him he didn't even know how to play... he had never been interacted with never mind fed properly. (He didn't even have enough muscle or flesh in his neck to put a chip in... we had to wait till good feeding, care and love took effect!)


Was that by any chance B. Sykes? There's another poster on forum, who decided to give up her Collie as she felt like she was failing and incapable of following some rather extreme advice http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/154451-not-sure-if-i-can-do.html.

The thing is, I meet lots of rescue Collies, and talk to their owners. Our dogs don't impose on each other, so they don't have the problems, with more optomistically sociable dogs like Chocolate Labs. Not one of the successes, have said they kept their dog in for months. When I had a problem with an under-habituated non-socialised Collie, we avoided the narrow woodland paths much used by dog walkers, and stuck to the open spaces, where she settled fine and we could keep her under threshold.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Was that by any chance B. Sykes? There's another poster on forum, who decided to give up her Collie as she felt like she was failing and incapable of following some rather extreme advice http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/154451-not-sure-if-i-can-do.html.
> 
> The thing is, I meet lots of rescue Collies, and talk to their owners. Our dogs don't impose on each other, so they don't have the problems, with more optomistically sociable dogs like Chocolate Labs. Not one of the successes, have said they kept their dog in for months. When I had a problem with an under-habituated non-socialised Collie, we avoided the narrow woodland paths much used by dog walkers, and stuck to the open spaces, where she settled fine and we could keep her under threshold.


Yes, indeed it was.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Needless to say, I am hooked on monitoring all the dogs around for signs of their arousal states and have been successful at pro-active, incident avoidance, rather than reacting.

Thanks, tripod that play advice and insight into your approach, has made a big difference for us.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Just wanted to say I know it is ages since these posts were written but here is an update.

Our dog is now fine around other dogs; we have taught him to stop chasing even in the midst of running after other dogs and to come to us when we call; he does this every time now.

His hackles still go up when meeting other dogs, but that is probably as you say, lack of socialisation in his early months, before we got him.

As for the obsession with the fetch game - we have successfully separated throwing the ball from ordinary walk time... he has his short session with the ball and then we say 'all done', he has a little treat and he knows that the play session is over and he trots off to follow interesting smells, go to the loo etc ... 
So we are quite happy with all that.

Now if we could stop him barking like mad at visitors when they dare to leave the room, that would be wonderful! Not got anywhere with that one yet but that probably deserves another post on this forum, not linked with this one.


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

thats good to hear .
can i ask how did you get him ok with dogs ?


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

In the past with collies who are unsure or reactive of their surroundings I used to go to an area where we would probably encounter whatever I wanted to work on such as cars, bikes, joggers etc, but from a distance. Then I would find somewhere to sit and get them to lie down and let them observe quietly from a distance for 10 - 30 mins rewarding relaxed behaviour and ignoring the stimulus. Then we would walk away and go for a proper walk. It takes a while but they soon learn what I want. Collies do need to learn to switch off.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

alyssa_liss said:


> thats good to hear .
> can i ask how did you get him ok with dogs ?


Sorry, not checked in for some time so didn't see your question. We combined the tactics of 'distraction' (playing with him, throwing his ball for him to fetch) and basic obedience training (recall). He is an intelligent dog and he soon learned to obey this once he realised that there may be a treat in it for him!

Once or twice he still has to be stopped from chasing other dogs, barking at them, but not often. In those instances he is then put on a short lead and not spoken to! He seems to know that's a direct consequence of misbehaving and when we then let him off again, he is as good as gold.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hello - again it is a long time since I checked in and found it interesting to read back through my posts and your replies. I have changed the title of these messages because it was no longer relevant but thought I would add to the thread in case it helped (background info etc).

We still have our rescue border collie, he is now 4 and a half; over the last 6 months his behaviour has worsened considerably in that he gets in a hysterical state (barking, spinning round on the spot barking ferociously) when one of us tries to leave the house. All we have to do is pick up the keys and he is there headbutting the back of our legs and sometimes collie nipping. Any attempt to calm him fails - to move him into another room whilst one of us goes out, results in absolute hysteria from him.

Likewise he is the same with any visitors, in fact we are now at the point where we cannot have visitors to the house because if he collie nips them that would be dreadful. As it is, even with people he knows, who come to see us, he barks ferociously if they try to move from a sitting position. If anyone comes to the door he goes berserk and is completely uncontrollable.

13 months ago we got a spaniel pup and our collie was very gentle with her, accepted her from the start and they play nicely together. His hysterical barking and lunging when we try to go out, or even walk across the room sometimes, is no way directed at her - and this behaviour has only come on over the last six months but is getting worse by the week.

We are on our knees with this problem; it is so stressful and we cannot see a way to resolve it. We are having a behaviourist visit next week, in one last hope that she can help. Otherwise we are reluctantly thinking of rehoming but could not send him to a kennels, it would have to be somewhere we knew he would be safe and well cared for. Our conclusion at the moment is that he needs to be in the home of a single person, as he does not behave quite so badly when one of us is in on our own... but when we are both in, he is uncontrollable if one of us wants to leave. The spaniel pup just looks frightened to death when he starts and we are concerned that she will be adversely affected by all this (she is 15 months old and a very calm well natured dog).

We love him to bits, but cannot imagine having to live with him like this for the rest of his life. You can imagine how upset we feel. The thing is, we have no idea, why his behaviour has changed over the last six months. Although I note that he WAS barking at visitors when they tried to move, a good while back, I wrote about it here in this thread. Well that has worsened considerably but back then he never behaved like this with us. This is new.

Any advice would be gratefully received.


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## Mad4Collies (Jun 19, 2013)

Kebars9 said:


> Hello - again it is a long time since I checked in and found it interesting to read back through my posts and your replies. I have changed the title of these messages because it was no longer relevant but thought I would add to the thread in case it helped (background info etc).
> 
> We still have our rescue border collie, he is now 4 and a half; over the last 6 months his behaviour has worsened considerably in that he gets in a hysterical state (barking, spinning round on the spot barking ferociously) when one of us tries to leave the house. All we have to do is pick up the keys and he is there headbutting the back of our legs and sometimes collie nipping. Any attempt to calm him fails - to move him into another room whilst one of us goes out, results in absolute hysteria from him.
> 
> ...


I think you would be best starting a new thread for this one!

A lot of folk will click on the thread and see it's a few years old and may not read to the very end (unlike me - I got sucked in to your story ).

HTH


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

thanks... I was thinking the same thing. LOL!


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## hahgiwoofa (Jun 5, 2012)

You have no idea how relieved I am to read that someone else is having Collie problems, 

I love him so much, but I don't know if I can take the stress anymore...

Our Border Collie Paddy is now 20 months old, and his training is coming on leaps and bounds. He's calmed down alot since we got him at 8 months from a rescue centre, he has started agility training, is ball obsessed but we practice making him wait before each fetch, he seems to have a high prey drive, and that, I think is our problem...

There is one thing that is still happening that I don't understand, and can't seem to sort out.

Our older dog Pepper has always been a bit fear aggressive to strangers (especially men in black and hats she came from a shelter at 6 yr old, we know nothing of her history) and we have been using distraction to help her with this - which is largely working. Paddy sometimes joins in on the barking if she starts but often looks around like he doesn't know what the barking is about.

The problem with Paddy now is that when we are 'distracting' them as someone passes he shows no interest in the treats, he will sit and appear quite calm just watching them pass, and then from nowhere suddenly lunge at the person. He doesn't try to bite them but has scratched a few people, and knocked a couple of people off their feet, understandably people are not happy, and he is starting to get a reputation as aggressive.

What is he doing? I understand the barking, warning strangers to not get to close, but why the lunging? and more importantly how do I stop it? 

Thanks for any advice...


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