# 6 month shar pei......help please



## Mr wrinkles (Oct 12, 2014)

Need help with my 6 month shar pei.....
Hi all my dog is mr wrinkles his 6 months and been a great pup from house training to walking on the lead and crate training but the last couple of weeks his been pushing it. Weed in the house right by the back door when we were standing there so no reson not to go out. started not to listen some of the time and his gettibg a bit nippy which im worried about as we have young kids. He is great with the kids and lets my 2 year old pull him sbout all over the shop!!! He is starting to pull quite abit now when i take him out and still not great with taking to new people, still very nervice. If any could give some advice it would be great. Thanks all and happydays :thumbup:


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm sure someone will be along to offer advice on the toileting and nipping.

However, I would strongly advise that you don't allow your toddler to pull your dog about at all. It really isn't fair on the dog - he may well be giving you signs that he doesn't like it and you aren't recognising them.

It's important that your child learns to respect the dog. Dogs react to pain in many different ways. Imagine if your child were to pull his ears or poke him in the eye and hurt him? Your dog may yelp and run away - but he might just nip as a defence. Not the dog's fault - but a recipe for disaster IMO.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Normal adolescence is beginning. Many dogs 'lose' their training at that stage but it should come back if you continue to train and don't let them get away with ignoring you. You can use a house line or long line when out so the dog has no choice but to take notice of you; if they don't come when you call, you step on the line or get hold of it and haul them in - then treat and fuss.

As Lurcherlad said, allowing your small child to pull the dog about is asking for disaster with such a wilful, powerful breed. Is this your first dog - sounds like it could be from having to make the post and not knowing what to do? Sharpeis are not really suitable for inexperienced owners. If you don't go to training classes (as much for you as for the dog), enrol now.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Yes, please don't allow your child to pull him about. Not fair on either the dog or the child. Sadly many cases of dog bites to children are as a result of children being allowed to taunt and harass a dog. And of course the dog ends up paying the ultimate price when it does eventually react. 

Also agreed with Burrowzig. Your pup is entering adolescence and previously well behaved little pups begin to test the waters a little more and as their confidence begins to grow with their outside environments they can quite easily blow off recalls in search of something more fun. Regarding the housetraining it's just a case of going back to basics a bit and making sure he's fully supervised and you can let him out in the garden every couple of hours or so. For the pulling I'd invest in a good non pull harness, something that can help you regain control and continue working on his loose lead training.


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hi, he is at the age where he is now testing his boundaries with you, you have to stay on top of him as you don't want a dog dominating you. Continue with the training ensuring you rectify whatever he is doing wrong at the time e.g if he is nipping you ensure to change your voice tone and tell him no, it is something you will have to keep repeating but he will catch on


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Great advice already and agree about not allowing your children to drag him all round the shop! I'd also say ignore all advice that includes anything to do with the dog dominating you, you dominating the dog, being alpha, showing the dog it's place in the pack or showing it who is boss.

I'd as others have said go back to basics with everything, sometimes with think our pups have "got" it all and are full trained and the finished product  we are all guilty of it, just reinforce your foundations of training as start again


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

san1 said:


> Hi, he is at the age where he is now testing his boundaries with you, *you have to stay on top of him as you don't want a dog dominating you*. Continue with the training ensuring you rectify whatever he is doing wrong at the time e.g if he is nipping you ensure to change your voice tone and tell him no, it is something you will have to keep repeating but he will catch on


It's been disproved nowadays that dogs try to 'dominate' us


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

We were actually told via the breeder that they can try to dominate and want to be the leader of the pack, am sure breeders of shar peis know the breed as they are not a typical dog and cannot be trained like your average dogs!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

san1 said:


> Hi, he is at the age where he is now testing his boundaries with you, *you have to stay on top of him as you don't want a dog dominating you.* Continue with the training ensuring you rectify whatever he is doing wrong at the time e.g if he is nipping you ensure to change your voice tone and tell him no, it is something you will have to keep repeating but he will catch on


https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/pack-theory-debunked/

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

Do You Really Need to DOMINATE Your Dog? | Steve Dale's Pet World

Some light reading for you.



san1 said:


> We were actually told via the breeder that they can try to dominate and want to be the leader of the pack, am sure breeders of shar peis know the breed as they are not a typical dog and cannot be trained like your average dogs!


Shar peis are domestic dogs, they learn the same way as any other domestic dog. Yes you need to keep in mind breed traits, but taking over the world is not one of them


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

san1 said:


> We were actually told via the breeder that they can try to dominate and want to be the leader of the pack, am sure breeders of shar peis know the breed as they are not a typical dog and cannot be trained like your average dogs!


And I 'actually' prefer to believe in scientifically-backed research into canine social behaviour than some disproved, outdated theory that is based on wolves thrown together into unnatural captive settings with unnatural social dynamics.

It's one thing to understand breed traits & adolescent behaviours (I have 2 street dogs, they can be difficult) but quite something else to postulate that every dog is out to take over the world


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

san1 said:


> We were actually told via the breeder that they can try to dominate and want to be the leader of the pack, am sure breeders of shar peis know the breed as they are not a typical dog and cannot be trained like your average dogs!


There are lots of people including breeders who believe old wives tales or information that has now been disproved.

Shar Peis are dogs, they have a CNS (central nervous system) and they are obedient to the laws of learning as all animals with a CNS are.

No breed including the SP are plotting world domination there is no need for concern, here are some links by reputable behavioursts and trainers which might help

Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Canine Dominance Revisited | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Object not found! ... inance.htm
Debunking Dominance Theory | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
Help Page -- ScienceDaily ... 112711.htm
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/
http://rogerabrantes.wordpress.com/2011 ... -nonsense/
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-arti ... nce-debate
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/con ... nce-debate


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

san1 said:


> We were actually told via the breeder that they can try to dominate and want to be the leader of the pack, am sure breeders of shar peis know the breed *as they are not a typical dog and cannot be trained like your average dogs!*


Not that old chestnut again  Sure, they have unique traits as do all breeds, but that does not make them a different species altogether.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

san1 said:


> We were actually told via the breeder that they can try to dominate and want to be the leader of the pack, am sure breeders of shar peis know the breed as they are not a typical dog and cannot be trained like your average dogs!


Oh please..


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Perhaps we should compile a list of breeds that are too special to be trained like any other breed, there seems to be a hell of a lot of them!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Perhaps we should compile a list of breeds that are too special to be trained like any other breed, there seems to be a hell of a lot of them!


Yes I have had a few of them, that apparently suffer from (insert relevant alleged breed health predispostiion) and are (insert relevant breed mental attitude) which makes them "special" and unlike any other that you may find in (insert relevant environment).


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

Don't know where you get taking over the world, but just because you have 2 street dogs does not make you a master of all breeds, any shar pei breeder will tell you they are not a typical dog, hence them doing specific books for training and understanding the breed. I have had Labradors and new foundlands so I am not new to the whole behaviour n training thing, so until you have one then you can comment on the breed!:mad2:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

san1 said:


> Don't know where you get taking over the world, but just because you have 2 street dogs does not make you a master of all breeds, any shar pei breeder will tell you they are not a typical dog, hence them doing specific books for training and understanding the breed. I have had Labradors and new foundlands so I am not new to the whole behaviour n training thing, so until you have one then you can comment on the breed!:mad2:


Pack theory, alpha dog, dogs trying to be dominant etc is an outdated debunked training methodology by about 20 years, irrespective of your breed it is incorrect, no matter how unique you and your breeder think your breed is, it still makes it outdated! You might not be new to behaviour and training but you are about 20 years behind..


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

san1 said:


> Don't know where you get taking over the world, but just because you have 2 street dogs does not make you a master of all breeds, any shar pei breeder will tell you they are not a typical dog, hence them doing specific books for training and understanding the breed. I have had Labradors and new foundlands so I am not new to the whole behaviour n training thing, so until you have one then you can comment on the breed!:mad2:


What is a typical dog then? I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a "typical" dog. Surely every dog is an individual and you treat them as such?

I was also not aware that a breed was so unusual and 'non-typical' that you could not comment on them without owning one.


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

Everyone to their own, but I actually have two very well behaved shar peis, yes they are dogs like any other, but traits n characters are unlike any dog you could own, n I don't expect someone to understand who does not own one, no matter how you think they are not typical breed n once again you wouldn't understand, I am not making them out to be superior breed etc BUT they are different :mad2:

Any shar pei owners out there?


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

I stroked a shar pei once?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

san1 said:


> Everyone to their own, but I actually have two very well behaved shar peis, yes they are dogs like any other, but traits n characters are unlike any dog you could own, n I don't expect someone to understand who does not own one, no matter how you think they are not typical breed n once again you wouldn't understand, I am not making them out to be superior breed etc BUT they are different :mad2:
> 
> Any shar pei owners out there?


No matter how different you think your dogs are, no matter how much you think they are not a typical breed, btw just an FYI everyone and I mean everyone says that about their breed! Your training advise is outdated and incorrect and no matter how different you think your breed it is still incorrect for your breed or any other breed that is totally different to all other breeds. All breeds have different traits and characters


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

san1 said:


> Everyone to their own, but I actually have two very well behaved shar peis, yes they are dogs like any other, but traits n characters are unlike any dog you could own, n I don't expect someone to understand who does not own one, no matter how you think they are not typical breed n once again you wouldn't understand, I am not making them out to be superior breed etc BUT they are different :mad2:
> 
> Any shar pei owners out there?


They're different to what?

A Terrier or a Hound?

What do you mean, that they're not a "typical" breed?

If you're going to make lavish statements, you need to be able to back them up before you accuse all of us of knowing nothing because we don't happen to own a Shar Pei.

I've always owned Terriers. Are Terriers "typical"?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

san1 said:


> Don't know where you get taking over the world, but just because you have 2 street dogs does not make you a master of all breeds, any shar pei breeder will tell you they are not a typical dog, hence them doing specific books for training and understanding the breed. I have had Labradors and new foundlands so I am not new to the whole behaviour n training thing, so until you have one then you can comment on the breed!:mad2:


There are training books for the American bull dog and also many breeders will spout this dominance rubbish so does that mean i have a super speshil dog too?

A Shar pei is a domestic dog _Canis lupus familiaris_ - fact
All domestic dogs have the capability to learn without being dominated - fact

Just because you can not train without conflict does not mean that ALL Shar peis can not be trained without dominance.

Tell me...what experience do you have in "the whole behaviour and training thing"?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

san1 said:


> Everyone to their own, but I actually have two very well behaved shar peis, yes they are dogs like any other, but traits n characters are unlike any dog you could own, n I don't expect someone to understand who does not own one, no matter how you think they are not typical breed n once again you wouldn't understand, I am not making them out to be superior breed etc BUT they are different :mad2:
> 
> Any shar pei owners out there?


Every breed is different.....that is why different breeds exist.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

san1 said:


> Any shar pei owners out there?


I have known a few pei's and pei crosses in my time and they are no harder to train than any other guardian breed. Ok, it may take time to find what motivates them but once you do, you have a very loyal dog indeed.

You do not need to own a breed to have an understanding of them


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

san1 said:


> ...he's at the age where *he's... testing his boundaries...* you have to stay on top of him, as *you don't want
> a dog dominating you.*
> 
> Continue with training, ensuring you rectify whatever he [does] wrong at the time; e-g, if he nips, you...
> change your voice tone & tell him no, it's something you will have [repeat], but he'll catch on.





san1 said:


> We were actually told [*by*] the breeder that [Shar-Pei] can try to dominate & [they] want to be
> the leader of the pack; [I'm] sure breeders of Shar-Peis know the breed as they're not a typical dog,
> & [*they*] *cannot be trained like your average dogs*!


Many breeders reiterate nonsense - any source is only as good as their source.

Do U believe that Bloodhounds are marvelous trackers because their skin falls down over their faces,
or because they were bred for an incredible cold-trailing nose, from the long-defunct St Hubert's Hound?
Breeders of Bloodhounds still promote that waffle, ya know.


simplysardonic said:


> And I 'actually' prefer to believe in scientifically-backed research into canine social behaviour, rather than
> some disproved, outdated theory[,] based on wolves thrown together into unnatural captive settings with
> unnatural social dynamics.
> 
> ...


Hear, hear! :thumbup:



san1 said:


> Don't know where you get taking over the world...


because U referred to dogs who DOMINATE humans, & who WANT TO BE THE *LEADER OF THE PACK*. 


san1 said:


> ...because you have 2 street dogs does not make you a master of all breeds...


that's true enuf, but it doesn't mean that U are ignorant of dogs in general, & guarding breeds
in particular. Anyone can OWN any breed; that doesn't limit their knowledge of other breeds they don't
own, does it?


san1 said:


> ...any Shar-Pei breeder will tell you they're not a typical dog, hence [there are] specific books for training
> & understanding [Shar-Pei as a] breed.
> 
> I've had Labs & Newfies, so I'm not new to... behaviour & training... [when] you [own a Shar-Pei],
> then you can comment on the breed! :mad2:


so no-one who does not OWN a Shar-Pei should be privileged to express an opinion about one?...

I've never owned a Shar-Pei.
I've never particularly WANTED to own a Shar-Pei.
But i've worked with many of them, purebred & cross-bred.

Does the fact that i don't own one & probly never will mean my opinion isn't worth a tinker's dam?

Just so U know, i've spent over 30-years training dogs, & since 1985 i've specialized in B-Mod of
presenting problem behaviors. I trained my 1st dog when i was 10-YO, & he earned a red ribbon that
1st year, & a blue the next - at the Grange Fair, in the open-obedience class. [The red was my fault,
entirely, BTW. He would have had a blue; i corrected him *using his name* whilst be was on
a down-stay, & he broke his down, thinking he was to come to me.]


san1 said:


> ...Everyone to their own, but [I own] 2 very well-behaved Shar-Pei; yes, they're dogs like any other,
> but [their] traits & characters are unlike any dog you could own, & I don't expect someone to understand
> who does not own one; no matter [what] you think -- they're not [a] typical breed.
> 
> ...


They're not THAT different, except in appearance.

They're an aloof Asian breed, in common with Tosa, Akita, Shiba, Tibetan Mastiff, Lhasa-Apso,
& some others.

They're a guarding breed - in common with Rotts, Dobes, GSDs, & livestock-guarding types.

They're less turfy than an LGD - so not as likely to bite merely for trespassing as, say,
an Ovcharka, a Pyr, a Saarplaninatz, a Kuvasz.

There's plenty of overlap in behavioral traits. They are unique in one sad way: ALL the Shar-Pei
in the USA & Europe descend from a mere *seven dogs -* the only survivors of the great
Chinese massacre of pet-dogs, during the cultural upheaval. As a direct result, Shar-Pei are prone
to a vast number of genetic issues, often involving skin problems & auto-immune disease. :nonod:
None of that is the dogs' fault - but it does come as a caution to those who love, own, or breed Shar-Pei.
.
.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

san1 said:


> Everyone to their own, but I actually have two very well behaved shar peis, yes they are dogs like any other, but traits n characters are unlike any dog you could own, n I don't expect someone to understand who does not own one, no matter how you think they are not typical breed n once again you wouldn't understand, I am not making them out to be superior breed etc BUT they are different :mad2:
> 
> Any shar pei owners out there?


I do not have to own a particular breed of dog to understand their learning styles, motivators, breed predisposition etc.

Even if you DO own a particular breed of dog it does not mean that your experience is THE experience, that you have "typical" specimens or understand them more.

What specific traits and characteristics make them novel (apart from their wrinkles, coat, appearance) from ALL other dogs?


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

They are very different by nature, I don't know where all this is coming from about them so called being a superior breed, all I have said is they are very different for training. Yes you do have to watch where they are bread as they can have a lot of problems, and some people just breed them for money which can cause all sorts of problems if they are not bread properly with temperament etc, mine have had so many surgeries I hate taking them to the vets as they get stressed out. That is another thing as they are not typical as stress can cause shar pei fevers which are a killer long term, this is not nice watching your dog (mine was 10mnth old when started) struggle to get up, body full of blisters and panting due to pain, whilst each attack is causing damage to their liver n kidneys, which eventually causes renal failure. And by the way they are not Asian, they were the Chinese fighting dog!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

san1 said:


> They are very different by nature, I don't know where all this is coming from about them so called being a superior breed, all I have said is they are very different for training. Yes you do have to watch where they are bread as they can have a lot of problems, and some people just breed them for money which can cause all sorts of problems if they are not bread properly with temperament etc, mine have had so many surgeries I hate taking them to the vets as they get stressed out. That is another thing as they are not typical as stress can cause shar pei fevers which are a killer long term, this is not nice watching your dog (mine was 10mnth old when started) struggle to get up, body full of blisters and panting due to pain, whilst each attack is causing damage to their liver n kidneys, which eventually causes renal failure. And by the way they are not Asian, they were the Chinese fighting dog!


I think you will find that the country China is in the continent Asia. 

You have not addressed the training issues, in what way are Shar Pei different to other dogs with regard to learning?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Mr wrinkles said:


> Need help with my 6 month shar pei.....
> Hi all my dog is mr wrinkles his 6 months and been a great pup from house training to walking on the lead and crate training but the last couple of weeks his been pushing it. Weed in the house right by the back door when we were standing there so no reson not to go out. started not to listen some of the time and his gettibg a bit nippy which im worried about as we have young kids. He is great with the kids and lets my 2 year old pull him sbout all over the shop!!! He is starting to pull quite abit now when i take him out and still not great with taking to new people, still very nervice. If any could give some advice it would be great. Thanks all and happydays :thumbup:


I don't have a shar pei but I have had dogs all my life.

Your dog is six months old - his hormones are kicking in - he is learning to be an adult male dog, and like any adult he wants to be independent and be his own boss. Regarding shar peis in particular, there was a thread about them on this forum recently, and one of the things that emerged regarding their temperament was that they were determined and stubborn (not bad dogs - just very independent).

1) - I would echo everything people have said on here about stopping your children from pulling the dog about - this should really never have started - dogs are not toys! When they are hurt or afraid, the only way they can defend themselves is with their mouth - he is still young and may not have developed full bite inhibition.

2) - Continue your training, being firm and using a lot of reward based training. If your children are old enough they can lean to help train him too. It will do them all good and bond them together - dogs love to learn, especially if there is a treat or a game in it for them

3) - GET HIM CASTRATED! His hormones are just trarting to kick in - they will be driving him mad pretty soon. He will want to find bitches, he will start to hump your children and sexual frustration may cause him to become nippy. Having had both uncastrated and castrated male dogs, I can promise you that in general a castrated male settles better, and is less likely to cause problems that an uncastrated one. I don't know if you intended to do this anyway, but like many people you may have been thinking of letting him father "just one litter" - please don't. It will awaken instincts in him that even after castration will still be there. Many people also feel that it it "cruel" to remove a dog's sexual organs - those people are usually men who mentally see their own testicles in a jar at the vet's. Dogs don't care. Their self-image isn't dependent on being able to piddle higher up the wall that anyone else (in this respect, as in many others, they are far superior to the human male). What is cruel is keeping a dog entire, without allowing him to breed regularly, so that his hormones drive him crazy and force him to try to get out of the house and seek out a bitch whenever he can. This frustration can also lead to aggression (not in all dogs, but in some, and with children in the house you don't want to risk it.)

4) - He will settle. As he grows up he will become calmer; if you stop the children from tormenting him (I know the don't do it on purpose, but kids are kids and they just don't think) he will be less likely to nip; and if you have him castrated he will become a much more contented animal all round, and less likely to cause problems of any type.

Don't forget that if he got out of the house and went courting, he isn't just likely to end up fathering a basket of puppies (who will need homes), but he could get lost, into a serious fight, or run over or cause a traffic accident - and if he is run over or causes an accident, you are financially responsible.

(Sorry - ranting a bit at the end. It is a bugbear of mine because I've seen it happen - not my dog, thank God)


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> What is cruel is keeping a dog entire, without allowing him to breed regularly, so that his hormones drive him crazy and force him to try to get out of the house and seek out a bitch whenever he can.


Better report me (and thousands of others) to the RSPCA then for our animal cruelty. 

It is not "cruel" to keep a dog entire.

Hormones do NOT drive dogs crazy

Nor do they FORCE him to try and get out of the house and seek out a bitch whenever he can.

What a load of uneducated, scaremongering twaddle. 

This utter codswallop


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

san1 said:


> They are very different by nature, I don't know where all this is coming from about them so called being a superior breed, all I have said is they are very different for training. Yes you do have to watch where they are bread as they can have a lot of problems, and some people just breed them for money which can cause all sorts of problems if they are not bread properly with temperament etc, mine have had so many surgeries I hate taking them to the vets as they get stressed out. That is another thing as they are not typical as stress can cause shar pei fevers which are a killer long term, this is not nice watching your dog (mine was 10mnth old when started) struggle to get up, body full of blisters and panting due to pain, whilst each attack is causing damage to their liver n kidneys, which eventually causes renal failure. And by the way they are not Asian, they were the Chinese fighting dog!


All you have done there is highlight reasons that the Shap pei should not be bred at all...

Right...from one guardian breed owner to another, what makes Peis so unique from American bull dogs (for example)?

They are both guardian breeds, they can both be aloof with strangers, they are both independent thinkers, both are misunderstood when it comes to training.... So please, please tell me what a pei has over an Am bull when it comes to training?

Ohhh, and psssstttt....China is in Asia, making the pei and Asian breed 



lostbear said:


> 3) - GET HIM CASTRATED! His hormones are just trarting to kick in - they will be driving him mad pretty soon. He will want to find bitches, he will start to hump your children and sexual frustration may cause him to become nippy. Having had both uncastrated and castrated male dogs, I can promise you that in general a castrated male settles better, and is less likely to cause problems that an uncastrated one. I don't know if you intended to do this anyway, but like many people you may have been thinking of letting him father "just one litter" - please don't. It will awaken instincts in him that even after castration will still be there. Many people also feel that it it "cruel" to remove a dog's sexual organs - those people are usually men who mentally see their own testicles in a jar at the vet's. Dogs don't care. Their self-image isn't dependent on being able to piddle higher up the wall that anyone else (in this respect, as in many others, they are far superior to the human male). *What is cruel is keeping a dog entire, without allowing him to breed regularly, so that his hormones drive him crazy and force him to try to get out of the house and seek out a bitch whenever he can.* This frustration can also lead to aggression (not in all dogs, but in some, and with children in the house you don't want to risk it.)


Umm..good to know that I am classed as cruel for having an entire male that causes no one any hassles, is not allowed to hassle bitches, does not try to break out as soon as a bitch in season is in the area..In fact goes about his daily life in the same fashion as a neutered male..
There are many reasons that people choose to keep their dogs entire, and whilst I agree that most pet dogs should be neutered due to lack of management, I think it is a bit harsh to lump all entire dog owners into the cruel camp when you have no experience with the individual dogs


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

I thought this was supposed to be helping advise about a young dog and its issues, everyone is entitled to their own opinions on how you should bring a dog up, how you should train them etc so why verbally abuse someone for their beliefs, we are all different, shouldn't you get back to the original issue raised!!!


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

Who also said a pei has anything over an American bulldog, I didn't, n I think you are all taking it out of context!!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

san1 said:


> I thought this was supposed to be helping advise about a young dog and its issues, everyone is entitled to their own opinions on how you should bring a dog up, how you should train them etc so why verbally abuse someone for their beliefs, we are all different, shouldn't you get back to the original issue raised!!!


Ahh, but there is advice and there is dangerous advise, like advising someone to try and dominate their dog which can in itself lead to various behavioural problems.

You also said that no one could possibly understand the breed enough to formulate a valid opinion unless they had owned one, which makes your opinion the only one that counts.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Better report me (and thousands of others) to the RSPCA then for our animal cruelty.
> 
> It is not "cruel" to keep a dog entire.
> 
> ...


What you have written? Certainly is.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

san1 said:


> Who also said a pei has anything over an American bulldog, I didn't, n I think you are all taking it out of context!!


But that is the point! They do not have anything that any other domestic dog does not have.

Ergo, they learn in the same way and they are not out to dominate anything..

You changed the course of this thread by saying this...



> you have to stay on top of him as you don't want a dog dominating you


No domestic dog is out to dominate anyone...
Oh and you are not getting verbal abuse, you are merely getting replies to your statement that has scientifically been disproved  (as the links posted prove)


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

Mr wrinkles said:


> Need help with my 6 month shar pei.....
> Hi all my dog is mr wrinkles his 6 months and been a great pup from house training to walking on the lead and crate training but the last couple of weeks his been pushing it. Weed in the house right by the back door when we were standing there so no reson not to go out. started not to listen some of the time and his gettibg a bit nippy which im worried about as we have young kids. He is great with the kids and lets my 2 year old pull him sbout all over the shop!!! He is starting to pull quite abit now when i take him out and still not great with taking to new people, still very nervice. If any could give some advice it would be great. Thanks all and happydays :thumbup:


Its perfectly normal for even 6 month old pups to have the occasional potty accident. Deal with it as you would any other time. Interrupt him neutrally, without emotion, take him outside, and big praise for going potty outside.
If it continues, it may be worth getting him checked for a UTI.

At 6 months the adult teeth are settling in to the jaw and his need to chew and use his mouth will be newly intensified. The nipping could be related to this or could just be impulsive puppy wanting to play not knowing the rules (no teeth on skin).
You say your two year old can pull him about the shop? Please be very careful about how you allow your dog and child to interact. You want the dog to have a strong foundation of positive associations with kids, not annoying ones. And you want your child to have a habit of respectful interactions with dogs. Your dog may tolerate being pulled on, but many dogs wont. And its not a safe habit to let your child get in to. Other pointers in this article:
How to prevent your child being bitten by the family dog | MNN - Mother Nature Network

As for meeting new people, same idea. Lots of positive associations with new people, keep it as low key as he needs if he is nervous. Do not force him to interact, if all you can get is him looking at someone calmly, reward that. Keep exposing him to all sorts of different people in different contexts, but always keep it positive for the dog.

If you havent already, you may want to sign up for a puppy basics class or similar. A good trainer can address all of these issues which are pretty common across the board.

Please avoid anyone who encourages you to establish rank or similar nonsense. Especially with a guardian breed, you want to forge a relationship of cooperation, not confrontation. Dominance is a valid term when discussing dogs, (it simply means who gets first dibs on resources which is ever changing depending on the dogs involved, the resource, the context etc.), but dominance is not a valid paradigm for our relationship with our dogs.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> All you have done there is highlight reasons that the Shap pei should not be bred at all...
> 
> Right...from one guardian breed owner to another, what makes Peis so unique from American bull dogs (for example)?
> 
> ...


SOme dogs don't seem to have much of a sex drive - fair enough, but a lot more get desperate to get to a bitch, and in that case I believe that it is unkind to leave them entire if they aren't going to have breeding opportunities.

I see that I have opened a can of worms.

Given my opinion - others disagree. Over as far as I'm concerned.


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

If you read it correctly, I did not say you should dominate your dog, I in fact said you don't want your dog trying to dominate you, that I believe is totally different, so I suggest u get your facts straight before you start ranting! :frown2:


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

san1 said:


> If you read it correctly, I did not say you should dominate your dog, I in fact said you don't want your dog trying to dominate you, that I believe is totally different, so I suggest u get your facts straight before you start ranting! :frown2:


And as I have said repeatedly..NO dog is out to dominate anything..
I am not ranting, I am just replying to your comments, just because they do not fit with your thinking does not make my posts rants.

Why not read the links that have been posted? You may learn something :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

lostbear said:


> 3) - GET HIM CASTRATED! His hormones are just trarting to kick in - they will be driving him mad pretty soon. He will want to find bitches, he will start to hump your children and sexual frustration may cause him to become nippy. Having had both uncastrated and castrated male dogs, I can promise you that in general a castrated male settles better, and is less likely to cause problems that an uncastrated one. I don't know if you intended to do this anyway, but like many people you may have been thinking of letting him father "just one litter" - please don't. It will awaken instincts in him that even after castration will still be there. Many people also feel that it it "cruel" to remove a dog's sexual organs - those people are usually men who mentally see their own testicles in a jar at the vet's. Dogs don't care. Their self-image isn't dependent on being able to piddle higher up the wall that anyone else (in this respect, as in many others, they are far superior to the human male). What is cruel is keeping a dog entire, without allowing him to breed regularly, so that his hormones drive him crazy and force him to try to get out of the house and seek out a bitch whenever he can. This frustration can also lead to aggression (not in all dogs, but in some, and with children in the house you don't want to risk it.)


Six months is a bit too young to castrate anyway, and this dog is showing timidity with new people, that would put me off neutering for a while as well.

It may be something to consider down the line, and certainly I fully agree with avoiding unplanned breedings - or even planned ones. But its not very hard to keep an entire male from breeding, and no, it wont drive him crazy to never get the chance. Weve had several dogs over the years who lived their whole lives entire, never having bred and they all seemed pretty non-crazy to me 

The consequences you listed are not wholly accurate and do smack a bit of fear mongering. Unless theyre actually living with a bitch in heat, most entire males make it through puberty without being too obnoxious. There are exceptions of course, but in general, dogs make it through the peak testosterone phases with most of their grey matter intact 

Im not against neutering BTW, but nor do I think its the cure-all its purported to be either. You still are going to have to train and manage your dog effectively.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

san1 said:


> If you read it correctly, I did not say you should dominate your dog, *I in fact said you don't want your dog trying to dominate you*, that I believe is totally different, so I suggest u get your facts straight before you start ranting! :frown2:


Dogs dont do that though.

A lot of the behaviors attributed to a dog trying to dominate are anything but.
Much of the pushy behaviors labeled as dominant are actually the sign of a confused, unsure dog, not a dog attempting to dominate the owner. How sad for the dog to have their insecurity misunderstood and possibly punished no?

I dont want to forge a relationship with my dogs where I am superior or higher ranking, that does me and them no good.
Rather, I want a relationship of cooperation, mutual respect, and mutual trust. No need for anyone to be dominant, we are partners.


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

I have learned with all the breeds I have had in the past, and everyone is different, people are entitled to their own opinions, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for others, but there is no need for arrogance, you do not know everything, nobody does.
Over


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

san1 said:


> I have learned with all the breeds I have had in the past, and everyone is different, people are entitled to their own opinions, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for others, but there is no need for arrogance, you do not know everything, nobody does.
> Over


I most definitely do not know everything, but I do know a 6 month old puppy is not trying to dominate his owners just because hes peeing in the house, mouthing, and pulling on the leash.


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## san1 (Nov 2, 2014)

No, but if he isn't via checked at this age when he gets to 12-18mnth old it will be a whole different ball game when he starts to push his boundaries


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

san1 said:


> No, but if he isn't via checked at this age when he gets to 12-18mnth old it will be a whole different ball game when he starts to push his boundaries


Alternately you could say that now is the time to work on building a really solid relationship where the dog learns to trust and cooperate with his owner.

If you have a relationship based on cooperation, there are no boundaries to push. There is simply communication.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Not sure why people think it's imperative to neuter a dog before a certain age to stop it becoming a nightmare. I was told, by vets as well as other owners, that if I didn't neuter Spencer before he was 18 months he would become sex mad, aggressive, dominant and uncontrollable  He's 3 and a half now and still entire. Okay, we went through the usual adolescent bull sh*t with him, the selective hearing, the pushing the boundaries etc. But all my dogs have gone through that to some extent or another. And all have come through it just fine without the rather drastic measure of chopping bits off them. Why are there all these scare stories about entire males?? The vast majority of entire males I've met (and there have been a lot!) haven't been problem dogs at all. 

I'm not anti neutering, 2 of mine have been neutered for different reasons. I just don't see entire males as being the unhappy, out of control creatures people often seem to think they are. My experience with them has been very different.

As for adolescence, far as I'm concerned it's simply a matter of being firm but fair, sticking to the boundaries and expectations you have, reinforcing training and realising that it is a phase and it does pass. And that not all dogs do turn into Kevin and Perry during it anyway.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

san1 said:


> I have learned with all the breeds I have had in the past, and everyone is different, people are entitled to their own opinions, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for others, but there is no need for arrogance, you do not know everything, nobody does.
> Over


You are right, no one knows everything..which is why there is always scope to learn and sometimes realise that some theories or ideas we have had in the past could well be wrong..

It isn't easy to admit that you (general you) are wrong, but once you do your learning capabilities are endless.

Dog training with conflict only ends in conflict, especially with some of the guardian breeds.

This has been posted before but it fits nicely here..please do read it, it may open your eyes..
Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

san1 said:


> No, but if he isn't via checked at this age when he gets to 12-18mnth old it will be a whole different ball game when he starts to push his boundaries


That just isn't the case. OK I know nothing about the Shar pei but plenty of people told me when I first got a rottie nearly 20 years ago that the males in particular needed keeping "in their place" and to understand "you are boss". Utter twaddle. The only place my dogs know for sure is theirs is on the sofa, on the bed and in my arms having a cuddle. Never believed all that rubbish about eating first, going through doors first etc etc. I've managed 5 rotties and a german shepherd (not to mention various pointers and an OESS) without going down that road.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

san1 said:


> No, but if he isn't via checked at this age when he gets to 12-18mnth old it will be a whole different ball game when he starts to push his boundaries


Not really, it will just mean the OP continues to have an unruly, young dog, who has never learnt any different. It will not mean the dog is dominant...at whatever stage of it's life.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> ...
> It is not "cruel" to keep a dog entire.
> 
> Hormones do NOT drive dogs crazy.


Possibly not - but the behavioral effects of being entire sure can drive owners, neighbors, & other dogs'
owners nutz, plus exacerbate tensions between dog-folks & non-dog-owners.

Think i'm exaggerating?
How likely is it that the dog p!ssing on a $350 cat-tree in a pet-supply is a neutered male, or female?

How likely is it that the dog posturing at an approaching dog is a desexed male, or female?
We all know such displays are likely to provoke a *reply* from the other male - whether he is
intact or not; it's an aggressive pose, & it prompts an aggro display in response.

Those & many other problematic behaviors are in the basic set that go along with keeping testes, & while
a trainer's own dogs might not display them because the owner is [hopefully] exceedingly dog-savvy, & will
take apropos measures to prevent or reduce them if they arise, the *Average Pet-Owners* don't have
the foreknowledge or the skills to prevent them developing, nor once they show up, the know-how to reduce
them - & at that point, as the behaviors are BOTH instinctive AND learned or practiced, even neutering may
not reduce those obnoxious behaviors, now habits, without the needed B-Mod - which again, the APO doesn't
know how to do, & would need help to both learn & implement.

What's wrong with desex to pre-empt a predictable slew of problematic issues?

A desexed M after 30-days is firing blanks, so even if he *does* tie an irresponsibly managed bitch
in estrus, no pups will be conceived - other bad things could happen, the 2 dogs could fight whilst tied,
the bitch might panic & try to pull away, hurting him, etc, but there won't be an unintended litter.

A desexed M can still be dog-reactive, but he's far-less likely to take it to a physical fight; mouthing off
& looking daggers aren't 'nice', but they don't require stitches, after.

For these behavioral reasons, & also for physical health, USA vets & other animal-professionals continue
to recommend *"Desex any dog U do not intend to breed."*
- statistically, neutered dogs live longer.
- it virtually eliminates the risk of some diseases.
- it greatly simplifies management of pet-dogs.

If U aren't going to compete in breed events that require testes, & U aren't going to use him as a sire,
i think desex is the best option - & done preferably before he has established bad behavioral-habits.


smokeybear said:


> Nor do they FORCE him to try and get out of the house and seek out a bitch whenever he can.
> 
> What a load of uneducated, scaremongering twaddle.
> 
> ...


Hormones may not literally *physically force* intact-Ms out doors, thru windows, & over fences,
but those hormones sure do encourage the intact-M to get out & seek estrous Fs.

Again, the stats here in the USA shows desex is varyingly popular -- highly popular in the developed
Northeast, with from 70% to 75% of dogs desexed, both genders; popular for Fs in the less-urban Southeast,
with over 60% spayed, but where anything from 20 to 30% of Ms are neutered - most Ms are left
intact, a massive underlying issue in the crisis post-Katrina in N'Awlins: over 70% of pet dogs there were
allowed to roam at large, often returning only to eat, & over 75% were *intact*. Inevitably, pups
were a nonstop year-round problem, as bitches come into estrus anytime, & dog-fights were common.

This enormous mobile popn of free-roaming, free-breeding pets caused all kinds of societal problems:
owners who DID leash their dogs ran a gamut of harassing or distracting off-leash dogs who had no nearby
owners to call them back - they could be miles from home, anytime of day or night. Dog-feces & urine were
everywhere; anything that could be urine-marked, was; anything that could be shat on, was - sidewalk, steps,
beaches, public parks, private gardens - unless U had a stout fence & a gap-free gate.

If this were my client's dog, i'd encourage them to desex him ASAP, too.

If U aren't a breeder, there's nothing wrong with skipping the more-obnoxious stage of male-teens -
& many things right about not letting a young male practice behaviors we don't want, now or ever.
Discretion is the better part of valor, IMO & IME. 
.
.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Remarkable how so many people that I know of seem capable of owning entire dogs, (male & female), without any random pregnancies occurring. None of them appear to be sex-crazed lunatics either...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Think i'm exaggerating?
> How likely is it that the dog p!ssing on a $350 cat-tree in a pet-supply is a neutered male, or female?
> 
> How likely is it that the dog posturing at an approaching dog is a desexed male, or female?
> .


Extremely likely to be a neutered male in both scenarios in my experience. Personally not had any problems with posturing females but I've only had male dogs. The vast majority of dogs that have postured at my dog (both my neutered and intact ones) have been neutered males.

And while I'd happily skip the teenage stage I personally think the hormones are needed for more than just reproduction and would prefer to let my dog mature fully before removing them. Each to their own.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Think i'm exaggerating?
> How likely is it that the dog p!ssing on a $350 cat-tree in a pet-supply is a neutered male, or female?
> 
> How likely is it that the dog posturing at an approaching dog is a desexed male, or female?
> ...


I can't take Merlin to Pets At Home, as he's certain to lift his leg on something. And yeah, the idiot does a lot of posturing, at a lot of dogs. 
He was castrated at 18mths old, and is now 8 years old.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mr wrinkles said:


> Need help with my 6-MO Shar-Pei
> ...my dog, Mr Wrinkles, is 6 months; [he's] been a great pup from housetraining to walking on lead
> & *crate training*, but the last couple of weeks, he's been pushing it.
> 
> [He pee'd] in the house right by the back door, when we were standing there... no reason not to go out.


Have U expected him *to take himself out to toilet, on his own*, thru an open door, all along?

Did U begin expecting him to take himself out to void when U got him, as a young pup [presuming]?

How old was he when U got him, & how young was he when U put the entire responsibility of housetraining
onto his own puppy shoulders? :blink:

If he has no history of being TAKEN * OUT to void, & REWARDED when he performed on leash, each
time he produced stool or urine... where do U think he'd have acquired the knowledge that outdoors
is where he's to void, each & every time?
It's not "natural" or instinctive to void outside the house, that's a human conceit not native to dogs.

The cleanliness instinct in dogs is native, but it's very limited; dogs as pups instinctively dislike voiding
*where they sleep*, which is a very small fraction of even the smallest house or apartment. The rest
is fair game --- UNLESS we actively teach the dog or pup, otherwise. That means on-leash potty trips,
confining the unhousetrained dog of whatever age to an easy-clean area when s/he isn't supervised,
REWARDING each time they void outdoors - which means *U go along,* dogs don't housetrain themselves.

If i'm misinterpreting the process, please do correct me! - but it sounds as tho U just left a door ajar,
& left him to get on with "housetraining". That's not how it works; it's much more interactive & demands
actual work by the owner or family.

Personally, i have dogs not housetrained sleep crated beside my bed, for connection & reassurance,
& also so that if they DO need to go out overnite, or get sick, or have diarrhea, i'm literally right there.

For pups from 8-WO to 6-MO who aren't housetrained, i *set my alarm* & get up at 3-AM each nite
for a pre-scheduled potty trip. For an 8-WO pup, that continues every nite until s/he is about 15-WO.
Two months out of my life of interrupted sleep is a drop in the bucket; for the puppy, that's crucial.
It makes their life easier for the next decade or more - their *lifespan*. I see it as investing -
i invest in that dog's housetraining, & it pays dividends for their life, & my life with them.

Per Ur dog:
- if he's crate-trained, *crate him* whenever he's not directly supervised. No exceptions.

- Go outside *with him* every time he's due to void; set an alarm on Ur mobile-phone, get the leash,
clip it on the dog, take dog out & *stand with him* in an area he's used before. He doesn't produce? -
no comment, no disapproval, cheerfully go back indoors & park him in the crate. Re-set the alarm for
15 to 30-mins later, & repeat ad infinitum *until he voids - then CELEBRATE!* :thumbup:
Warm, sincere praise verbally, *plus* a high-value, high-protein tidbit. That goody should appear
under his nose just as soon as he lowers his leg if urinating, or as soon as he raises his bum if stooling.
He shouldn't take a step before that goody is in his face; verbal praise begins *as he voids,*
& the goody is presented AS he moves from voiding [leg down or butt up].

- Consider teaching him to void on cue.
This greatly simplifies Mgmt - if U have a car-trip, he can be empty & ready to go along in minutes.
If an emergency occurs - a kid knocks a tooth out, & must get to the dentist - he can be empty & safely
confined to his crate, without worry that he'll need to get out & void whilst U are gone. Etc, etc, etc.


Mr wrinkles said:


> [He's] started not to listen [sometimes], & [is] getting a bit nippy, which [worries me]; we have young kids.
> 
> *He's great with the kids, & lets my 2-YO pull him about, all over the shop!!! - *
> 
> ...


I'm sure U've already heard the message about not allowing a child to hassle or haul on a dog - no matter
what the age of the child, but *especially* toddlers, with their fatty faces of pull-off parts! Why is that
so bad? -- Because dogs punish pups by nips to THEIR FACES, & an infant or toddler has a face totally
different from the bony foreface & tightly-secured skin of a puppy.

A nip to a toddler that wouldn't bruise a pup can mean plastic-surgery for a toddler. :yikes: Don't let any kid
develop rude, intrusive, grabby, pesty habits with pets; i got early lessons via our Siamese, who were not
as forgiving as the average dog & very-clearly let me know what was OK & what wasn't. My arms & hands
were decorated periodically for several years. 

Pulling on leash: U have 2 choices -
- re-teach walking on a loose lead, from square one. If U don't know how, join a training club that uses
reward-based training without prong / pinch or choke / infinite-slip collars.

- Get a sturdy, inexpensive H-harness that fits him well. Clip the leash TO HIS CHEST, not the usual ring
at the shoulder or behind the ribs, over his back; those facilitate pulling, we want to make it difficult.
If there's a metal-ring joining the 3 straps on the chest, Bingo! - clip it there, yer off. If there's none, don't
panic, so long as it fits SNUGLY & well, actually compressing the skin & muscle slightly so that his hair
bristles at the edges of the straps, & the buckles don't get into his armpits or bang his elbows or otherwise
pinch, pull hair, rub, or impede movement, buy it anyway - fit is the crucial bit.
Then buy a *locking* carabiner & slip it diagonally under the junction of the 3 straps; if in doubt about
size & burst-strength, ask a salesnik what's apropos for a 30# child. They come in colors to match, S/S,
basic black, etc; slide it under, LOCK it, & leave it on. Clip & unclip the leash to it, so that the carabiner is
never UNlocked, & no-one can accidentally clip the lead to an unlocked carabiner; U don't want him to
pull, the carabiner falls off, & there goes the dog!... 

Now, using a front-clipped harness, any pulling-power he has is reduced, as it can be converted from
momentum forward, to a sideways arc - simply by keeping Ur hands *low* & wrists / elbows
*straight*, U magnify Ur own leverage. it's a very safe, very humane way to limit his strength,
& use the least amount of force [muscle work] to restrain or direct him.

Imagine:
he sees another dog; he wants to visit. He leans into the harness. U take one step back on the off leg
[right if he's to Ur left; left-leg if he's to Ur right], TURN Ur torso at the waist while keeping hands low
& arms straight, & MOVE those 2 hands == Away from the Dog ==, together, down & beside Ur hip.
Can U see it?
...hands are both on the leash to begin, he leans & "pushes", U step back & swing both hands gently
down & to the side AWAY from the dog, near that hip - turning at Ur waist.
Miraculously, he is going to do a U-turn & end up facing U, wondering how the H*** that happened,
with no yanking, no chance of hurting him, no scolding, just action - & minimal strength is needed.

Older children past the age of reason can do this, *with supervision* - for safety, minors shouldn't
walk dogs alone, an adult should always be there to intervene in emergencies & watch how dog & child get on,
plus ensure they behave politely & follow best practice - pick up poop, don't interfere with other dogs, etc.

- Manage it rather than train:
using the same front-clip harness, throw in the towel & use it for life. :thumbup1: It's OK, he's a pet,
U aren't competing in an obedience match. PREVENTING the habit of pulling is key; he cannot be allowed
to continue practicing.

As well-known trainer Brian Kilcommons says, *"Manage first - then train."* U can't teach anything
until U can control the dog & the environs, at least somewhat; there's no point in trying to train
a puppy who's running free on a beach with a half-dozen other dogs to recall, are U kidding?!... Start at home
on leash in the house, then the garden, then the front stoop, then off-leash in the house, in the garden, etc;
raise criteria only as the dog improves. The simplest test is *80%:* if he can do it on one cue,
4 times of 5 cues, he's ready for the next step.

Be sure to PROOF - that means practice around distractions, ONE at a time, slowly increasing the level
of the distraction [closer, louder, from 1 dog to 2 dogs, from a quiet home garden to a lightly-used park,
from a distant soccer game out of sight to one he can see & hear, to --- eventually - standing by
the pitch; & so on.

Remember *distractions do not ADD -* they are exponential.
2 distractions isn't "twice as hard" - it's not 1 + 1, it's 2 *times* 2, & thus 4 times as hard.

U have to reduce criteria at least 1 step, any time U introduce a new distraction or increase one.
.
.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Think i'm exaggerating?
> How likely is it that the dog p!ssing on a $350 cat-tree in a pet-supply is a neutered male, or female?
> 
> How likely is it that the dog posturing at an approaching dog is a desexed male, or female?
> ...


My entire dog goes into our local petshop every week to pick out a treat, not once has he p!ssed up anything...yet I have seen many neutered dogs doing just that.

Again with the posturing, my entire male is not allowed to posture anything..yet we have had neutered dogs posture at us.

Surely that shows those examples are owner issues rather than furry teabag issues?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I can't take Merlin to Pets At Home, as he's certain to lift his leg on something.
> And yeah, the idiot does a lot of posturing, at a lot of dogs.
> 
> He was castrated at 18mths old, and is now 8 years old.


This is an extremely-common after effect of later desex in M dogs, since these behaviors aren't "just"
instinctive, they are also learnt habits. Desex later isn't a magick bullet; it helps, especially with
leg-lifting to mark, but M:M posturing, reacting to other Ms particularly intact-Ms even post-desex, etc,
are common habitual issues in dogs neutered as adults.

The super-male stage at about 9-MO is the most difficult stage for a pet-owner to manage;
not only the dog himself is increasingly obnoxious, but OTHER dogs react TO HIM - since he's secreting
*5 to 7 times as much testosterone as an adult, intact-M who's 12 to 15-MO.* That's a massive hit
of male-hormones, & so mounting, hassling Fs, total distraction when other dogs are around of any gender,
& so on, are thru the roof.

A pet-owner who's having trouble managing a 6-MO male in the early stage of puberty has no idea;
that's the start, it gets bigger & bigger, more & more intense. :nonod: And the habits they learn,
they don't UNlearn.
.
.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'll hold my hands up and admit that given half a chance Ty would pee in Pets @ Home  He has to be kept on a very short lead and you just learn to watch where you stand! He marks a lot out on walks/outside of the house which in part might be because he's entire. That said, I don't see it as a problem. He doesn't mark in the home, and never has, either mine or anyone we've ever visited. So marking outside is appropriate behaviour. Cash has also humped other dogs randomly from around 4 months or so. However, I'd say that's less to do with being entire and more a displacement behaviour/something he finds rewarding/fun. I keep him on lead the majority of time around other dogs for this very reason actually 

I have never experienced any of the other so called entire dog behaviours though. No humping from Ty at either other dogs or people, no posturing, no escaping, or becoming a sex starved lunatic. Nothing. He lives his life the same way, day in day out. We was actually around an in heat bitch this morning...and both my boys barely glanced at her. Although she was probably not at her peak cycle....


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

Bates was neutered at 4 months (not by us). Given half the chance he will mark, posture and hump. 
I think a lot of behaviors attributed to hormones are training issues not hormone issues.
I think a lot of it is just individual dog personality. Plenty of bitches will mark and hump too.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> My entire dog goes into our local petshop every week to pick out a treat, not once has he p!ssed up
> anything... yet *I've seen many neutered dogs do just that*.
> 
> Again with the posturing, my entire male is not allowed to posture anything.. yet *we've had neutered dogs
> ...


Stormy,
let's establish right off that U aren't an Average Pet-Owner. :001_smile:
- U joined PF-uk.
- U actively post.
- U are an experienced owner.
- U train Ur dogs.
- U train mindfully & humanely.
- U are dog-savvy & knowledgeable.

Any of those makes U unusual; *all of them* makes U exceptional.
Comparing U to an APO is not merely apples & oranges; it's apples compared to styrofoam fruit.

Being an exceptional owner, U had the foresight AND the skills to teach Ur intact-M dog from puphood
how to behave politely in public, & how to comport himself around other dogs - of whatever gender, & what-
ever reproductive status. In fact, i'd be willing to bet ca$h that Ur intact-M could behave politely even in
the presence of an estrous bitch - not both off-leash & romping, but both on leash & nearby.
Am i correct in that? -- I'd say he'd be intrigued, but limit himself to eye contact & wagging.
He wouldn't haul U in her direction, carol like a yodeling goatherd, or flirt maniacally. Right?

Re the desexed-Ms p!ssing on items in the pet-supply, & desexed-Ms posturing AT YOUR intact-M,
the age at which those dogs were neutered has a massive impact on the likelihood or rarity of those
behaviors.

Did U ask the handlers of the dogs p!ssing on the sales merchandise, "How old was Ur dog when
he was neutered?" --- :blush2: Of course not, but it would be valuable info.

If U were walking with a desexed-M dog, U'd be less-likely to trigger posturing in passing dogs.
The simple fact that *your* dog is intact & male, makes him a prompt for other dogs to react -
& other intact-Ms are most-likely to react to him, but Ms desexed after puberty are also very likely
to posture, as they'd already begun practicing before they were castrated.

And again - 
the owners or handlers of the dogs who p!ss on sales-merchandise & posture at other Ms, intact or not,
*are* overwhelmingly APOs. If they are dog-savvy handlers or trainers, they are in the process of
trying to reduce that behavior, the dog is a recent client or foster or adoptee, AND... they'd *notice*.
They wouldn't ignore or miss the fact that their dog p!ssed on the fancy cat-tree, nor would they pretend
that posturing at another M-dog, whether intact or not, is normal & just fine, when in public.

The dog-savvy handler would *notice* & *react *- stop the urine-stream short, turn the male
who's posturing abruptly butt-on to the dog he's targeted with the display, verbally interrupt, etc.
They wouldn't ignore it, overlook it, or pretend it's fine.
.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I don't have a shar pei but I have had dogs all my life.
> 
> Your dog is six months old - his hormones are kicking in - he is learning to be an adult male dog, and like any adult he wants to be independent and be his own boss. Regarding shar peis in particular, there was a thread about them on this forum recently, and one of the things that emerged regarding their temperament was that they were determined and stubborn (not bad dogs - just very independent).
> 
> ...


This utterly bugs me..... Castration is not a magic fix to make a dog calm and content nor does it make it less likely to cause problems of any type.

I have only ever had entire males, I have never had a behavioural issue, I have never had a dog try to force it's way out of the house and seek a bitch when ever they can also never had a dog go crazy because of his hormones, also never had my dogs sire an accidentally litter either, never had a dog show any aggression or frustration! Best call the USPCA on me now because I not only have an entire male in the house I have an in season bitch too...

This is one of the reasons I left this site is the utterly incorrect, misleading and sometimes bloody dangerous misinformation people give out!

Dogs irrespective of breed do NOT try to dominate us nor do we have to show them who is boss.

Castration is not a magic fix it all and entire dogs are not all sex starved beast climbing the walls to sow their wild oats! I think it is bloody cruel to a dog to castrate them when it could have a massively negative effect in their welfare!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

My 9 year old entire male has never marked in any interior be that house, hotel room, hall, shop etc.

Nor does he hump, posture or anything else (as several people on this forum can attest to).

He does not suffer fools gladly, but he is extremely self assured and does not need to do any of the above.

In addition he can detect a bitch in season within a 5 square mile radius.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> My 9 year old entire male has never marked in any interior be that house, hotel room, hall, shop etc.
> 
> Nor does he hump, posture or anything else (as several people on this forum can attest to).
> 
> ...


None of my entire males have humped anyone or anything even other dogs/bitches, nor have they pee'd anywhere they shouldn't also don't have an issue with them and other dogs!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Bates was neutered at 4 months (not by us). Given half the chance *he will mark, posture and hump.*


Marking, especially with leg lifted, & M:M posturing are M-specific, & testosterone-driven.

If i recall correctly, Bates arrived as an adult-adoptee, & he's best described as a former 'difficult
child', LOL - with minimal former training, plenty of undesirable behaviors, & needing much work.

I'd also bet that at this point, U can verbally interrupt his posturing or pending marking with
a mild, "Bates?...", & he'd re-think the prospect before lifting that leg, or he'd cease posturing & turn
away from the other dog. Is that a correct presumption?

HUMPING is a whole 'nother category; dogs do that for many, many reasons.
Bitches in season hump to get attn; pups of both sexes mount, & SOME may hump as well, since it's
a fixed-action pattern that's easily tripped by mounting. The pups mount to intimidate, interrupt, for fun,
to manipulate a littermate, to control another's behavior or stop them in their tracks, & more.

Adult dogs hump when they're at a loss, clueless & want to play, over-excited, etc, etc.

So that he humps isn't even tied to the fact that he's male, altho of course it makes it much more
likely than it is in Fs, intact or not [except in estrus, when approx 3 in 4 bitches will mount & / or
hump other dogs; SO FAR, i have yet to see a bitch, even in estrous, mount a human leg; it may happen,
but i haven't seen it... yet].


ouesi said:


> I think a lot of behaviors attributed to hormones are training issues not hormone issues.
> I think a lot of it is just individual dog personality. Plenty of bitches will mark and hump too.


It's been my experience, & also it's in the research i've read, that pubertal neutering reduces & / or
eliminates many potential problem-behaviors in M dogs; at minimum, it makes them less frequent.

One study of M-dogs only who had longstanding habits of marking found that over 90% of the dogs who
were neutered during the study, *stopped marking* with zero added intervention; no B-Mod.
The remaining under-10% needed B-Mod in addition, but the frequency dropped after desex -
it didn't stop entirely, but it went down a lot.

Fs mark, but it's generally less often, less damaging / obvious, & usually triggered by specific
stimuli - another F in heat is a common trigger. A new woman in the household is another
[peeing on used lingerie, her soiled laundry, & so on].

Fs, too, hump for other-than-sexual reasons:
- overexcited.
- don't know what to do / how to cope.
- solicit play.
- control others or intimidate.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

He didn't become beautifully behaved, well-mannered, & socially fluent by accident; he had help. 


smokeybear said:


> My 9 year old entire male has never marked in any interior, be that house, hotel room, hall, shop, etc.
> 
> Nor does he hump, posture or anything else (as several people on this forum can attest to).
> 
> ...





Meezey said:


> None of my entire males have humped anyone or anything, [not] even other dogs/ bitches,
> nor have they pee'd anywhere they shouldn't; also, [there's no] issue with them and other dogs!


As i said to StormyThai above...


leashedForLife said:


> ...
> let's establish right off that U aren't an Average Pet-Owner. :001_smile:
> - U joined PF-uk.
> - U actively post.
> ...


U both know what U're doing when U start teaching a young pup, of either gender, & U know *how*,
crucially, to socialize, habituate, & train from puphood to adult, & into senior years.
The OP isn't that knowledgeable, & needs all the help they can get.

Desex - IMO & IME - is helpful, & best done with non-breeding prospects *before* 9-MO.
.
.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> If i recall correctly, Bates arrived as an adult-adoptee, & he's best described as a former 'difficult
> child', LOL - with minimal former training, plenty of undesirable behaviors, & needing much work.
> 
> I'd also bet that at this point, U can verbally interrupt his posturing or pending marking with
> ...


Exactly - so what does neutering have to do with any of it?

Lunar came to us as an adult intact male, had been his whole life, had fantastic dog skills, zero need to posture, never once peed in the house - marking or otherwise, (even though he had never lived in a house), his only behavior issue was RG.

So again, what does neutering have to do with any of it?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I had three PRT males who all remained entire to the end of their lives.

Two of them were used at stud, one of them fairly regularly.

None of them humped, postured or tried to cock their legs in my home.

One of them was very lukewarm about in season bitches too.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Desex - IMO & IME - is helpful, & best done with non-breeding prospects *before* 9-MO.
> .
> .


So this would be a blanket recommendation to everyone and every male dog, irrespective of breed, any behavioural issues or health issues? So it is helpful to all males?


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> Desex - IMO & IME - is helpful, & best done with non-breeding prospects *before* 9-MO.
> .
> .


There is a lot of newer research coming out that neutering may not be as helpful behaviorally as we formerly believed, and may even be detrimental. Especially with reactive and timid dogs (OP describes the dog as having trouble warming up to new people).

And we definitely know that neutering before full maturity can cause growth issues and health issues later on.

I think with a dog who is timid/reactive I would advise on how to responsibly manage that dog to prevent unwanted pregnancies rather than a blanket get him castrated ASAP.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> He didn't become beautifully behaved, well-mannered, & socially fluent by accident; he had help.
> 
> As i said to StormyThai above...
> 
> ...


Are you really advising everyone with a male dog to have it castrated before nine months of age?

Surely you can't be serious?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Out here it seems the norm to leave dogs entire without good reason to spay or neuter. The vast majority of German owned dogs I've met have been entire, male and female. There seem to be far fewer issues with posturing or targeting of intact males amongst them than amongst the British owned dogs here. I've often wondered whether it's anything to do with the fact entire males aren't encountered anywhere near as often and so are something "odd" and perhaps scary to a lot of dogs. Will be interesting to see whether we have more problems when we return to the UK.

Spencer humps. I don't think neutering will make any difference since it's a response to stress or to OTT play. Only ever humps other dogs and as he's matured it's become very infrequent. When it comes to dogs posturing at him he goes out of his way to avoid trouble, offering calming signals and even walking away and trying to avoid the dog in future. It takes a hell of a lot to push him into responding in kind and I step in before it gets that far and to hell with whether it makes me seem over protective. 

Marking isn't an issue I've had with any of mine. Shadow had to be watched more closely than the others in certain environments but he was perfectly clean in the house and anywhere else he was a regular visitor.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> [Neuter *before* 9-MO] would be a blanket recommendation to everyone and every male dog,
> irrespective of breed, any behavioural issues or health issues?
> 
> So it is helpful to all males?


"*everyone*" doesn't include large chunks of dog-owners.  Obviously, a breeder with a prospective stud
isn't going to desex him at 6-MO - unless he shows some bad heritable issue, juvie cataracts, serious aggro,
develops OCD behaviors, something.

Primarily, it's *helpful* to APOs, who aren't breeders, aren't dog-savvy, & especially for those
who are pup-novices; coping with their first pup, rearing, socializing, habituating & training, is IME more
than enuf to overwhelm them, & coping with the testosterone-peak is unnecessary added self-torture.

I'm sure that i could get a male-pup, even one NOT of my choosing, & rear him as an intact dog
to behave politely as an adult; it would be more difficult to make him dog-social if he were, say,
an LGD, but not impossible except in individual cases - there ARE individual males who are not going
to become dog-tolerant, let alone dog-social even with a few dog-buddies. They're not common, but they
exist, & i might get one of them.

But aside from that small fraction, i'm confident that i could rear an intact-M from puphood to adult
& have a polite, well-behaved, mannerly adult dog, complete with testes. *However*, i'm not
a competitor in breed-sports, it's unlikely he'd be an outstanding stud-prospect, & why would i
want to keep him intact? --- For bragging rights? What's the point?

Peri-anal fistulas, prostate issues, testis cancers, & other health concerns come along with testes.
Breeding is a good reason to keep a dog intact; competing is another, if the handler or owner is
sufficiently skilled to produce a well-behaved male dog, not a pain-in-the-a$$ who competes. 

But aside from that, i see no reason to keep male dogs intact, nor for that matter, to keep Fs intact.
It's to the dog's advantage as well as the owner's & the community's, to have them desexed.

What specific *behavioral issues* would, in Ur opinion, contraindicate neutering?

Please don't tell me it's that, _"He's shy, & needs his confidence built before he's neutered."_ 

In my full & frank opinion, that's a complete invention; i'd never heard it before approx 2010,
& all the many, many dogs i've known with serious fear-issues or timidity were not made worse
by neutering; testes don't confer confidence. Habituation & socialization do, along with, hopefully,
normal range genetics - as fear, timidity, & shyness are all facets of "shy", which is extremely
heritable.

DESEXING shy dogs is a very good idea - as it prevents some dimwit from breeding them. :thumbdown:
Fear & aggression are both highly-heritable, & no dog, M or F, purebred or crossbred or random-bred,
no matter how physically perfect or impeccably pedigreed, should be bred if s/he is timid, shy or aggro.
Period - no matter what s/he cost, no matter what crucial role s/he was to play in Ur breeding scheme,
no matter how much U spent on rearing, trainers, genetic tests, radiographs, whatever... if they've got
behavioral issues, they don't become sires or dams.
[Same-sex aggro is also heritable, FYI.]

Not long ago, a trainer on Linked-IN was hired by the owner of a St Bernard who'd been banned from
the breed-ring in AKC events, for displaying serous aggro to the judge in the ring. He had an additional
history of multiple bites, ... BUT he was valuable, on paper. The owner was determined to rehabilitate
not the *dog*, but his "brand" - his image. She wanted him back in the ring, & she wanted to breed him.

The trainer eventually quit the case, & sent a registered letter to the owner detailing their concerns about
his dangerous behavior, his ongoing issues, & the hazard to her breed of reproducing him. Basically,
the owner was unethically determined to get the most out of her investment, & dam* the consequences. :mad5:
.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> "*everyone*" doesn't include large chunks of dog-owners.  Obviously, a breeder with a prospective stud
> isn't going to desex him at 6-MO - unless he shows some bad heritable issue, juvie cataracts, serious aggro,
> develops OCD behaviors, something.
> 
> ...


With all due respect LFL your preferred style of writing is for my dyslexic mind a real struggle to read, the above is too long for me to read and unscramble in my head without my tiny brain imploded! So I'll just take it as a yes that it is a blanket recommendation irrespective of breed, health or behavioural issues.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Also for those who seem too think this about some people thinking they know it all and not even accepting others have an opinion do your research and take a look at the abuse dogs take all in the name of stopping them dominating people....


"He's doing that to try and be dominant."
The whole "dominant dog" thing has frankly gotten out of control. The word is flung around as a way to explain practically any misbehavior from jumping on a person to digging through the trash to urinating on the bedspread. If your dog jumps on you or crawls on you when you're sitting on the floor, it's more likely that it's out of overexuberance and lack of solid training than because he's trying to show you who is boss. Even resource protection isn't necessarily a "dominance" issue  a dog just doesn't want to lose what he considers valuable, like a certain toy or a bowl of food. The fear and anxiety about that loss is as much a possible cause for a growl than a drive to be the leader of the pack. Assertiveness, confidence, a lack of confidence, pain or illness, excitement, exuberance, fear, mistrust, a lack of training ... there are far more accurate ways of interpreting a dog's actions than the tired old line of "trying to be dominant."

McConnell writes, "Understanding social status is particularly important because misunderstanding what 'dominance' means has led to appallingly abusive behavior. So much old-fashioned obedience training could be summarized as, 'Do it because I told you to, and if you don't, I'll hurt you.' The assumption seemed to be that dogs should do what we say because we told them to; after all, we're the humans and they're the dogs, and surely humans have more social status than dogs." However, as McConnell goes on to point out, social status isn't all about dominance; it is a far more complex concept than one member of the family "pack" being the leader.

Whittling everything down to a dominance problem means losing sight of the complexity of social dynamics and creates blind spots for understanding behaviors. Don't let the real reason for behaviors, and therefore appropriate and effective solutions for training, get ignored because the word "dominance" springs to mind ahead of anything else.


Again irrespective of breed dogs are never trying to be dominant and we don't need to show them who is boss, not just my opinion the opinion of most who have studied and kept up to date with research in to training and dog behaviour. So more fact than a know it all opinion


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm on the fence with the neuterng debate, within reason.

I have seen a fair amount of evidence that castration can improve or even eradicate various behaviour problems in a good number of cases. I can understand why owners going through these problems would consider neutering; as I understand people who keep mixed sex dogs, or who feel they would struggle to ensure their entire male does not procreate.

However, just because castration may be beneficial does not mean I support routine neutering of all boys; and especially NOT at a young age.

We are starting to see evidence that castration may in fact cause or worsen certain behaviour problems, although currently that is still under great debate.

My biggest concern is the health risks. There have now been several studies that have clearly shown that castrating before the age of 12-18 months significantly increases the risk of various serious and potentially life threatening conditions; including osteosarcoma. 
Given that my next dog will (hopefully) be a male rottie pup this has settled the matter for me personally. The study linking early neutering with increased osteosarcoma risk was done specifically on rottweilers. Osteo is already the biggest health problem rotties face, taking many dogs sadly far too young. No way on earth would I massively increase that risk for my own convenience.

The health benefits of castration are pretty limited; testicular cancer is fairly rare anyway and if found the testes can then be removed. From what I've seen I genuinely beleve the risks outweigh the benefits.

Back to behaviour briefly I also have to wonder about the lifestage issue.... Most of the behaviour problems for which castration is a potential aid/cure manifest and are at their worst during adolescence. To best prevent them the dog would need to be neutered before puberty. However, it is this early castrating that poses the most health risks. Health wise it would be better to wait until the dog is fully mature; preferably 18months upwards for a large breed. But if you reach that stage and have no behaviour problems castration becomes unnecessary anyway.

I do feel differently about spaying bitches... Entire bitches are at risk of far more health problems than entire males, inc not only those relatively unusual reproductive cancers but also pyometra; as well as welfare issues such as false pregnancies. As such I persoanally would spay a bitch, although again I would not go for early neutering. I would prefer to wait as long as possible, preferable until the 12-18 month stage once fully mature.

Terry - some of what you have said seems contradictory. You recommend neutering, inc juvie-neuter, in order to prevent behaviour problems. Yet you then go on to suggest that neutered dogs feel the need to mark and posture in the presence of entire dogs. It reads (perhaps unintenionally) that you are blaming the entire dog for provoking a reaction - which is grossly unfair. The way I see it those neutered dogs are the ones that have developed problems, if they can't cope with another dogs because it has its nuts!

I'm certainly not anti-neutering, of either sex, but I do believe it should be a well considered decision, based on the individual dog and owner. Blanket recommendations, especially of immature animals, I find inexcusable.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> DESEXING shy dogs is a very good idea - as it prevents some dimwit from breeding them. :thumbdown:
> Fear & aggression are both highly-heritable, & no dog, M or F, purebred or crossbred or random-bred,
> no matter how physically perfect or impeccably pedigreed, should be bred if s/he is timid, shy or aggro.
> Period - no matter what s/he cost, no matter what crucial role s/he was to play in Ur breeding scheme,
> ...


In some respects I'd agree, I don't think a dog with behavioural issues should be bred from regardless of circumstances. But fear issues can be difficult enough to live with without risking making them even worse by neutering. For dog _and_ for owner. It may be a good idea from a breeding standpoint, I'm not convinced it necessarily is a good idea for the individual dogs well being though. And for me, my dogs well being would be what mattered most.

And if a dog is reacting to my dog because he's entire...well I'm afraid I don't see that that's my problem. It's the other dog and owners problem surely  I shouldn't have to neuter my dog because another dog may not like entire males. It should be up to that dogs owner to control their dog imo.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> With all due respect LFL your preferred style of writing is for my dyslexic mind a real struggle to read, the above is too long for me to read and unscramble in my head without my tiny brain imploded! So I'll just take it as a yes that it is a blanket recommendation irrespective of breed, health or behavioural issues.


I thought it was just me!

I'm sorry too LFL I find your posts very difficult to read and lose interest halfway through and just give up, which is a pity as you have some interesting things to say even if I don't always agree.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ... the above is too long for me to read...


Really?
so answers that U'd actually read, have to fit on a bumper sticker?

I'm sorry i bothered replying.


Meezey said:


> So *I'll just take it as a yes* that it is a blanket recommendation,
> irrespective of breed, health
> or behavioural issues.


Then U'd be wrong, as it's not.

But of course, U'd have to read it to know that.
Hope these are concise enuf.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

This has become a "castration - for or against" thread. 


Sorry OP - if you are still about perhaps in your individual case you could ask your vet's advice. I hope you've found something in here to help with your dog's behaviour issues, though - I apologise that you will have to go a long way back.

Mea culpa.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Really?
> so answers that U'd actually read, have to fit on a bumper sticker?
> 
> I'm sorry i bothered replying.
> ...


I have dyslexia your style of writing is a struggle for me to read, I didn't just chose to ignore it or not to read it I didn't read it all as it is a struggle for me one that causes me headaches! Sorry that my dyslexia offends you!

Because you use different sentence structure, text speak and don't use capital letter my mind struggles more than usual to unscramble it! Wasn't being rude! I can and did read Colette's because although it was long it is an easy read because of the structure.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Because you use different sentence structure, text speak and don't use capital letter my mind struggles more than usual to unscramble it! Wasn't being rude!


This^

Not being rude either, but it's why I find your posts difficult to read and I don't have dyslexia.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> Terry -
> some of what you have said seems contradictory.
> 
> You recommend neutering, incl *juvie-neuter*, in order to prevent behaviour problems.


Please define what age-range "juvie-neuter" covers, for U?

like UK-vets, who seem to define "early desex" in wildly different ways, "juvie" AKA juvenile seems
to be a frequently-amorphous phrase. I prefer to use *pediatric* [under 3-MO], *pre-pubertal* [over 
but under 5-MO], *pubertal* [5 to 7-MO], & *post-pubertal* [after 7-MO] or *adult* [12-MO & up], 
to narrow terms into specific age-ranges.

Which of those would be "juvenile", in Ur personal usage?

I don't tell any & everyone to desex M-pups before 6-MO.
I *do* suggest it for M-pups of breeds noted for M:M aggro & dog-reactivity in general - for Ex, 
M JRT or Scotty pups would be good candidates for pre-pubertal desex, especially with a novice
owner. That novice doesn't have sufficient time between 8-WO when they get that pup, & 6-MO when the pup
is well-into puberty, to develop decent leash-handling skills, let alone good body-language assessments of
their own & other dogs, for emotional state, intention, etc; they're too dam* busy socializing, habituating,
& housetraining, to work on the stuff that experienced owners already know.

I also don't suggest pediatric desex for behavioral reasons - i suggest it for health reasons, as pups who
are desexed under 3-MO have less time under anaesthesia, bleed less, scar less, have fewer complications,
etc, etc, etc. It's *safer*, statistically, than pre-pubertal or pubertal desex, & far safer & less traumatic
physically than adult-desex, when bleeding, scarring, etc, are maximized.


Colette said:


> ...you then... suggest that neutered dogs feel the need to mark & posture in the presence of entire dogs.
> 
> It reads (perhaps unintenionally) that you [blame] the entire dog for provoking a reaction - which is
> grossly unfair.


I'm not *blaming* the intact-dog in the least - i'm *explaining* why intact-Ms provoke displays
even from desexed Ms, & also i've REPEATEDLY pointed out that reacting to other Ms is a *learned
behavior* - so WHEN - at what age, specifically, that desexed-M was neutered - is a massive
factor in *how likely* neutered Ms are to react to intact Ms.

A male who's gone thru puberty & practiced posturing, competing with, & challenging other Ms has
practiced a whole set of behaviors that a pediatric- or pre-pubertal desex male has not. That's the point
i've made, over & over; if he is a highly-reactive individual OR poorly socialized, OR a breed that
commonly develops same-sex aggro [Akita, anyone?...], then the longer he's intact before desex, & the MORE
he rehearses these behaviors, the more-LIKELY he will be to continue those learned, practiced, fluent beha-
viors after desex.

Does that make it crystal clear? :001_smile: I do hope so - & i'm sorry, but it won't fit on a bumper sticker
or into a Tweet. :lol:


Colette said:


> The way I see it ,those neutered dogs are the ones that have developed problems, if they can't cope
> with another dogs because [he] has [his] nuts!


No, they haven't developed "problems", they've developed *habits*, practiced over time.
We all know that practice makes behavior more fluent - it happens faster, on less stimulus, etc.


Colette said:


> I'm certainly not anti-neutering, of either sex, but I do believe it should be a well considered decision, based
> on the individual dog and owner. Blanket recommendations, especially of *immature* animals,
> I find inexcusable.


So telling a novice-owner that their M-Pup of a breed well-known for M:M aggro is very likely to be
problematic beginning as early as 4-MO, increasingly reactive at 6-MO, & Godawful at testosterone peak,
is bad?

Is it better to let them find out for themselves, & let them muddle thru as best they - & their M-pup - can?

U know very well that novice owners are likely to make matters worse, by punishing their pup for his
reactivity? - he postures & hackles, they jerk the leash to drag him off, etc? This doesn't help, if anything,
it teaches the pup that other dogs approaching predict uncomfortable events for him. Pretty soon, he's not
just getting up on his toes & hackling in excited tension, he's lunging & barking at increasing distances.

Personally, i prefer to TELL them that their sweet, biddable, follow-at-will pup won't stay that way.
The invisible umbilical-cord on an 8-WO pup stretches & snaps pretty quickly, & independence becomes
a way to explore the world & how he [or she] fits into it. Forming good habits & avoiding developing
bad habits, makes life happier for both ends of the leash, & hopefully will keep that pup in that 1st home
for the rest of his or her lifespan.

And yes - desexing pups with problematic behaviors toward other Ms is my suggestion, even before
the long-standing, bog-standard "6-MO" pubertal desex that was Std Operating Performance before
i was born, & is a thoroughly known, solidly established statistical risk / benefit.

So is pre-pubertal & pediatric desex; both have been done in developed nations around the world,
beginning in the 1970s & increasingly in the 1980s, becoming standard practice in shelters & rescues
for all pups & kittens BEFORE they allow adoption & release that pup or kitten to the adopter. There are
40-years of statistics on the safety, complication rates, & post-surgery or lifelong after-effects of
pediatric & pre-pubertal desex.

BUT - to get back to the OP's post -
this pup isn't pediatric & isn't pre-pubertal, he's 6-MO, & we've been desexing 6-MO pups, M & F,
as the standard age before i was born, over 50-years ago. SO in this instance, ALL of the talk
about pediatric or pre-pubertal is hypothetical, & doesn't even apply to this thread's topic.

I do hope i've expressed myself clearly - I have to get back to work.
Sorry it's not a 3 sentence reply, but brevity isn't always clarity. 
.
.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Siskin said:


> This^
> 
> Not being rude either, but it's why I find your posts difficult to read and I don't have dyslexia.


Yup. I'm fully versed in English (degree level) however it's a huge effort to read L4Ls posts. While they are undoubtedly full of gems of knowledge, I can't get through them.


----------



## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Just for the other side of the coin - I like reading L4L's posts.  Obviously the style's pretty unique, but it seems like a good way of condensing a lot of info into a few paragraphs. 

But then, I spent four years staring at degree level maths. There's a small possibility that it's a case of "by comparison, L4L's posts make sense"


----------



## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> Please define what age-range "juvie-neuter" covers, for U?
> 
> like UK-vets, who seem to define "early desex" in wildly different ways, "juvie" AKA juvenile seems
> to be a frequently-amorphous phrase. I prefer to use *pediatric* [under 3-MO], *pre-pubertal* [over
> ...


Your definitions aren't that helpful either though. So much depends on the breed, the size of the dog, etc.
Plenty of breeds are no where near pubertal at 5-7 months and therefore not post-pubertal after 7 months, nor are they "adults" at 12 months.



leashedForLife said:


> I also don't suggest pediatric desex for behavioral reasons - i suggest it for health reasons, as pups who
> are desexed under 3-MO have less time under anaesthesia, bleed less, scar less, have fewer complications,
> etc, etc, etc. It's *safer*, statistically, than pre-pubertal or pubertal desex, & far safer & less traumatic
> physically than adult-desex, when bleeding, scarring, etc, are maximized.


Sorry but a lot of this sounds like unsubstantiated fear mongering, and I have *never* had a vet suggest neutering or spaying before 3 months, certainly never had one suggest that it is safer.

In fact, I've told this story before, I wanted to spay Breez earlier than my vet did. I tried to make the appointment for 7 months, and my vet told me to wait until she was at least 10 months. I argued with her saying I totally did not want this bitch to have a heat (we were in the middle of a coyote problem where we live). My vet argued back saying "if she goes in to heat before 7 months I'll pay for the spay myself." She *really* wanted to wait as long as possible for her to be spayed? Why would she want that if early spaying was safer for the dog? 
And BTW, this is a very pro-spay/neuter vet. She is very active in rescue and acutely aware of the overpopulation crisis and trying hard to do her part to solve it, but even she did not want me to spay my dog too soon.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Spencer was certainly not mature at 12 months, physically or mentally. In fact mentally it's only the last 6 months he's seemed to really be an adult and he's 3 and a half lol. Physically I'd have been happy to neuter him at 2 if he'd needed it.

A lot of Brits here have complained because the vets won't neuter their males before 12 months or their females before a season unless really, really pushed. They feel it's better to let them mature a little first. Nor is it actually pushed for the most part, entire dogs, male and female, seem to be the norm here going by the dogs we've encountered.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lizz1155 said:


> Just for the other side of the coin - I like reading L4L's posts.  Obviously the style's pretty unique, but it seems
> like a good way of condensing a lot of info into a few paragraphs.
> 
> But then, *I spent four years staring at degree level maths*. There's a small possibility that
> it's a case of *"by comparison, L4L's posts make sense".*


whoa, better U than me, :lol: - the only course i had to repeat in college?
... calculus.  Of course, it was also a "weeder" course, one of many thrown at pre-vet undergrads
to winnow the ranks savagely in the 1st two-years of 4. :nonod: At the time, just 17 universities in the entire
USA offered DVM degrees, & now, over 30-years on, there are *22 -* a massive increase. 

Weeder courses cover enormous subject areas, stiffly graded on a curve - the intent is to red-line at least
2 in 3 students, preferably 3 of 4, & force them into another major, or even get them to quit in despair.
My calc-instructor was a grad-student with a malicious streak; he wrote all our tests & quizzes except
the final - my class, under his underhanded tutelage, had an *average-score* was 55... of 100 
possible points, on his quizzes & tests. :yikes:

This was a class of pre-vet & pre-med students, not chumps majoring in Comp-Lit or Hospitality.

When i repeated the class after the 1st "D" in my life, I hired a tutor, paid him more than i earned per
hour at my job, solved every problem in the text book... & was 2 points shy of an "A" on the departmental
final-exam. :mad5: Then i got another *D!* - WTH?... So i saw the head of the math-dept.

I showed him the evil test-problems written by the grad-assistant, explained how hard i'd worked, showed him
my almost-A, & he said, "...but Ur scores average to a high D. Yes, it's close, but it's still a D." Thanks, sweetheart.
I'm sure U'd do as little for any other underachieving, pathetic pre-vet. 
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Your definitions aren't that helpful either though. So much depends on the breed, the size of the dog, etc.
> Plenty of breeds are nowhere near pubertal at 5-7 months and therefore not post-pubertal after 7 months,
> nor are they "adults" at 12 months.


Biology defines adulthood very simply.
If the individual is capable of breeding, s/he is an *a-d-u-l-t*. Male pups generally have fertile sperm
by 6-MO; *i am not* suggesting or defending breeding 6-MO males, nor would i ever suggest that any-
one breed a bitch on a 1st-heat; in fact, as i've repeatedly said, *the best thing any breeder can do
for her or his dogs is to postpone breeding until EVERY dog, M or F, is at least 2-YO.*

Bitches are perfectly capable of getting pregnant on their 1st-estrus; that doesn't make it right,
but it's "natural" insofar as it's not abnormal or aberrant. Street-strays get preg & stay preg on every heat;
it's a horrible drain on them, it's not good for their pups, & it's a legacy of poor health & struggle.


ouesi said:


> ...this sounds like unsubstantiated fear mongering, and I have *never* had a vet suggest neutering or spaying
> before 3 months, certainly never had one suggest that it is safer.
> 
> ...


The facts are:

- any healthy pup or kitten that weighs a minimum of 2# can be desexed, safely.

Some USA shelters & rescues began to desex pups & kittens before releasing them to adopters in the '70s;
it rapidly became more-popular as a means of preventing the progeny of adopted pets, coming back to
the same shelters their parents had left, with adopters who promised to desex & never bothered.

Pediatric desex became the standard for shelters & rescues in the mid- to late-'80s, so it's not 'new'.
There have been multiple retrospective studies on the outcome of pediatric desex, & yes, whether folks
applaud it or disparage it, it's SAFER. I'll be happy to return with links to studies, if anyone wants them?...

- *Vets do not typically SUGGEST it to pet-owners - that doesn't change the safety rating.*

However, i've noticed that PF-uk cat-breeders don't turn a hair at the prospect of desexing kittens before
turning them over to buyers; it seems that desexing puppies is cruel & horrific, while desexing kittens
is admirable & responsible. :huh: Personally, i think castigating one as torture & painting the other as
noble & righteous, is ridiculous.

.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Biology defines adulthood very simply.
> If the individual is capable of breeding, s/he is an *a-d-u-l-t*. Male pups generally have fertile sperm
> by 6-MO; *i am not* suggesting or defending breeding 6-MO males, nor would i ever suggest that any-
> one breed a bitch on a 1st-heat; in fact, as i've repeatedly said, *the best thing any breeder can do
> ...


Very few UK cat breeders do! Very few vets will spay under 4 months and most still recommend 6 so your information about cats in the UK is incorrect! http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/365821-early-neutering-find-vet-local-you.html feel free to read the facts!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Very few UK cat breeders do [pediatric desex]!
> 
> Very few vets will spay under 4-MO & most still recommend 6-MO, so your information about cats
> in the UK is incorrect!
> ...


 A-huh.

& there's also
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/370390-early-neutering-put-my-mind-ease-please.html

&...
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/378271-prepubertal-neutering-weeks-vet-record.html

&...
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/5147-how-much-do-you-pay-neutering.html

I can find more, if U like; however, none of this does a doggone thing to help the OP.
Remember the thread-topic?... It's not "Pediatric desex, pro & con", it's about a 6-MO Shar-Pei.
:lol:
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ...
> Very few [UK] vets will spay [under 4-MO / before 16-WO] & most still recommend 6-MO, so your
> information about [kittens & pediatric desex] in the UK is incorrect! ...


some other "facts" re Uk vets -

Abington Park Vets | Northampton | Open 7 days a week | UK | Abington Practice | Moulton Practice | Acorn Practice | Low Cost Early Neutering



> EARLY NEUTERING
> Abington Park Vets now offer *neutering of your pet before the age of 16 weeks.
> 
> Early neutering means shorter anaesthetic times, quicker recovery from anaesthetic & shorter healing
> ...


price comparison, same vet:



> BITCH SPAYS over 16-WO:
> - Small (up to 15 kg)
> £149.00
> - Medium (15-30 kg)
> ...


don't take my word for it - here's the price list:
Abington Park Vets | Vet Northampton | Open 7 days a week | 24 Hour Emergency Service | UK | Abington Practice | Moulton Practice | Acorn Practice | Prices

From the Brit Vet Assoc


> ...
> In line with the British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA), BVA recommends that pet cats are
> neutered from 16 weeks. *In the case of feral & rescue kittens it may be necessary to neuter earlier than
> 16 weeks (due to the age of trapping). In these circumstances, neutering at 8 to 12 weeks is consid-
> ...


source:
BVA - Neutering

Also


> Suggested timing of neutering for:
> 
> Pedigree kitten bought from a breeder
> *Rarely homed before 14-WO*; already fully vaccinated (Governing Council of the Cat Fancy recommendation).
> ...


SOURCE:
Policy Statement 1: Timing of neutering

differences in suggested age primarily revolve around the SOURCE of the kitten, & purebred vs DSH / DLH.
Kittens purchased from a breeder are desexed later than mutts from a BYB, who are desexed later than feral
kittens.

Ergo, it's not because there's a serious added risk at lower ages.
It's because feral cats & kittens quickly become trap-wise & must be 'done' [shots & desex] ASAP
in a single day once trapped.

Also - 
Cats Protection | Neutering | Find an Early Neutering Vet

supposedly, 900 vet-practices across the UK are listed as doing desex at 16-WO or less.
.
.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm not sure what spaying and neutering cats has to do with spaying and neutering dogs  They're two completely different species for a start. They're kept completely differently too, most cats I know are free roaming, most dogs I know aren't. Much, much easier to keep a dog from breeding than a cat you let out to do as it pleases. Plus there isn't the huge size and growth variation in cats there is in dogs. If I had a cat I would be looking at the pros and cons of spaying and neutering before full maturity just like I have with my dog.

And I'm sorry but nothing is going to convince me that spaying or neutering a puppy before 16 weeks is right no matter how many vets offer it! 6 months is too young imo never mind even younger! What exactly is meant by "safe" anyway? That the animal isn't likely to die under the anaesthetic? Studies appear to show that there are several health risks linked to early spay and neuter in dogs. 

Personally I think a hell of a lot more research needs to be done into the possible effects of spaying and neutering at any age though. In the meantime, unless my dog gives me good reason to neuter he'll keep all his bits


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Ah so much to answer - will try not to miss anything out!



> Please define what age-range "juvie-neuter" covers, for U?


For me personally; when I refer to juvenile neutering I mean before the dog is physically fully grown.

My reason for this is that those hormones affected by neutering also affect growth. A dog that is neutered before it it has at least reached its full adult height (even if it hasn't filled out to full size / weight) is therefore likely to have its growth affected by neutering.
I also mean neutering prior to puberty; but as this generally happens before the dog is fully grown it makes no difference to my use of the term.

I see no need to break it down into further specific time points, because the highest risks seem to be associated with physical development and bone growth.



> No, they haven't developed "problems", they've developed habits, practiced over time.
> We all know that practice makes behavior more fluent - it happens faster, on less stimulus, etc.


To be fair, I think many owners with dogs who hump, posture and pee inappropriately would consider it a problem. But these behaviours, whether in neutered or entire animals of either sex, can also be affected by appropriate socialisation and training, even by breeding (in the sense that some breeds, or lines within a breed, are more prone to dog reactivity than others).



> So telling a novice-owner that their M-Pup of a breed well-known for M:M aggro is very likely to be
> problematic beginning as early as 4-MO, increasingly reactive at 6-MO, & Godawful at testosterone peak,
> is bad?
> 
> ...


I actually agree with all of this 

OF COURSE new owners should be warned of the trials and tribulations of adolescence; and taught how to deal with it. Teaching them humane, effective training methods, about proper socialisation, how to avoid problems and encourage good behaviour etc.

Still doesn't mean I advocate encouraging all of them to neuter!

I don't even object to juvie-neutering (as defined above) in specific cases, where the dog is particularly problematic and the owner struggles to cope - it is a choice people need to make for themselves. But it needs to be an _informed_ choice based on the potential benefits and risks. A cost-benefit analysis so to speak.



> Pediatric desex became the standard for shelters & rescues in the mid- to late-'80s, so it's not 'new'.
> There have been multiple retrospective studies on the outcome of pediatric desex, & yes, whether folks
> applaud it or disparage it, it's SAFER. I'll be happy to return with links to studies, if anyone wants them?...


I don't know about anyone else here, but my concerns with the risks of juvie neutering are NOT about the operation itself.

Spaying and castrating are fairly safe procedures these days anyway. Is pediatric neutering even safer for the reasons you mention? Possibly; though I will check out your links to get a better idea.

But again it isn't the operation that concerns me - it is the long term effects.

Neutering, especially prior to 12-18 months (depending on the specific study), has been shown to significantly increase the risk of various health problems associated with physical growth; ranging from hip dysplasia and cruciate ligament rupture through to various cancers including osteosarcoma and even reduced lifespan.

I personally would not choose to significantly increase the risk of my dog developing a painful, debilitating disease and knocking a couple of years off his life expectancy for the sake of reducing unwanted behaviours that may otherwise be controlled by training and socialisation.

And last but not least....



> However, i've noticed that PF-uk cat-breeders don't turn a hair at the prospect of desexing kittens before
> turning them over to buyers; it seems that desexing puppies is cruel & horrific, while desexing kittens
> is admirable & responsible. Personally, i think castigating one as torture & painting the other as
> noble & righteous, is ridiculous.


I am not specifically pro-pediatric neutering of kittens - but I currently have no objection to it either. Indeed my next feline will be neutered before I am allowed to adopt him/her because that is the policy of the rescue concerned.

My reasoning is simple - cats are dogs are different 

1) The way in which dogs and cats are kept in the UK is usually very different.

Most dogs are house pets; living in (usually) secure accomodation and not leaving the home unattended. Unless there are other entire dogs in the home of the opposite sex the risk of accidental* litters is actually very small.

Most cats in the UK are still allowed to roam, unsupervised, at will. An entire cat kept like this is almost certain to reproduce.

Thus the argument for neutering to prevent unwanted litters is far more relevent to cats than to dogs.

*I should specify here I am talking about genuine accidents - not people who simply _allow_ their pets to reproduce.

2) I am, to date, unaware of any studies linking neutering to health problems in cats. I have however seen several linking neutering to various health problems in dogs.

Based on available evidence the cost-benefit analysis yields different results.
In dogs you reduce the risk of some problems, but increase the risk of others.
In cats there currently are no known risks, but still the benefits.

3) Cats are smaller!

No I'm not being ridiculous; as discussed above my issue is with neutering dogs before they are fully grown. This varies even between dogs - as expected given the vast range of sizes and growth rates of dog breeds from chihuahuas to st bernards.

As such while a large breed may be best kept entire until 12 months or more; a very small breed may be safe to neuter much younger because he will already have reached his full height.

So far the studies I have seen have been on larger breeds - like rottweilers and retrievers. I'm not sure if any studies have specifucally looked at smaller breeds to confirm or deny this.

Cats reach their full height younger than most dogs do. I see no need to wait for a cat to be over a year old for neutering, when he will be full height by perhaps 4-5 months.

Personally I do expect pediatric neutering may still pose some risks that have not yet been studied or proved. 
Personally if I got a kitten that was entire, I would probably wait until the cat was around full height before neutering. But I would not turn down a pediatric-neutered kitten, particularly from a rescue, without good reason; and as yet I have no evidence of that reason.

Hope that all makes sense and I've covered everything


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> some other "facts" re Uk vets -
> 
> Abington Park Vets | Northampton | Open 7 days a week | UK | Abington Practice | Moulton Practice | Acorn Practice | Low Cost Early Neutering
> 
> ...


So explain how breeders are neutering before they leave their breeders? Neutering before they leave at 12 weeks is considered early? That's what I mean! FYI cats ain't dogs whole different ball game bit like comparing apples to melons!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It is "safe" to spay and neuter 4/5 WEEK old rabbits..safe as in the majority do survive the initial op...

Safety does not make it right or ethical IMHO
I do find it interesting that doctors won't spay women when they request it but it's ok to put kittens and puppies on the operating table to make life easier for the human


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> It is "safe" to spay and neuter 4/5 WEEK old rabbits..safe as in the majority do survive the initial op...
> 
> Safety does not make it right or ethical IMHO
> *I do find it interesting that doctors won't spay women when they request it* but it's ok to put kittens and puppies on the operating table to make life easier for the human


^^ I know, weird right? My friend has had 2 kids (and she was the one at school who said she'd never have them  ) and is 26. As she had to have c-secs she wanted a hysterectomy after her 2nd, but the the docs refused to do it as she was so young. Isn't it her decision?

Also.....I don't think the OP is coming back....


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> ^^ I know, weird right? My friend has had 2 kids (and she was the one at school who said she'd never have them  ) and is 26. As she had to have c-secs she wanted a hysterectomy after her 2nd, but the the docs refused to do it as she was so young. Isn't it her decision?
> 
> Also.....I don't think the OP is coming back....


I will never have children, I know I will never have children...I have requested a spay several times as my cycles are very painful.
They will not even consider it because apparently I may change my mind


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I will never have children, I know I will never have children...I have requested a spay several times as my cycles are very painful.
> They will not even consider it because apparently I may change my mind


Very true, still requesting it and still being told medically there is no way they will put me through major surgery! I know humans aren't dogs and more than cats are dogs but tough surgery tough recovery!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> So explain how breeders are neutering before they leave their breeders?
> Neutering before they leave at 12 weeks is considered early?
> That's what I mean! ...


This is the USA - the links i provided re cats are *specific* to the UK, as is logical.
I was responding to a comment about UK-desex practices; according to Cat Protection, over 900 UK-vets
are listed on their search-engine as providing "early", under-16-WO, neutering.

However - last time i saw a survey of breeders in *Canada*, the average age that kittens leave
for the buyer's home is *12-WO / 3-MO*.

Here in the *USA, most shelters & rescues place pups & kittens both in adoptive homes at 8-WO & up,
& in some backward states, state law allows 7-WO pups & kittens to be sold / adopted - like VA.*
[I wish they'd all adopt 56-days / 8-WO as standard, since that is consistent with Federal USDA regs -
but states love their own opinions.  Logic doesn't enter into it, even if U explain that 7 more days
with mum is very valuable, some dweeb-legislator will announce, _"Well, we got ALL our pets at 7-WO,
& they were FINE!..."_ Yeah, right, sure.

*Breeders in the USA often sell pups or kittens as young as it's legal to do so.
If that's 8-WO, then 56-days; if it's 7-WO, then 49-days.* They're not keen on keeping them around;
sooner gone is less work, let's face it. *Some* breeders keep them longer, but they're few.

So, if USA-breeders are going to desex pups or kittens before sale, they will be pediatric desex, & probly
at 7- to 8-WO; some do the ops at 7-WO, & keep the kittens for the week to recover with sibs & mum,
in a familiar place. Others do the desex 3 or 4 days before sale - it varies.

This also applies to *puppies - * of any breed or mix. Some breeders desex before sale, including the cost
of neuter in the price; *shelters & rescues* virtually universally desex before they allow a pup to leave,
as compliance with a S/N contract averages just 40%. So many, many, many pups are desexed annually,
in all the many breed-rescues, all-breed rescues, & municipal or private shelters.

Here's an Irish Wolfhound breeder who happens to be a vet, & desexes his pups as a service
to his puppy-buyers if they want it done:
Early Spay/neuter

QUOTE from DVM Rosebrock:


> _
> 
> "7 of 16 Irish Wolfhound pups from one litter & 2 of 9 from the litter prior, were neutered before placement
> in their new homes at 10 weeks of age. The first litter is now 28-MO, the last is now 18-MO, & no negative results
> ...


There's been no massive increase in later health-issues, specific to millions of pediatric desex pets.

Pediatric desex has been SOP since at least 1985 in the vast majority of municipal shelters, outside
of very-rural areas, & the extreme-Southeast - like N'Awlins. Millions & millions & millions of pups
& kittens have been neutered at between 7 to 9 or so weeks-old. The sole qualifications are that they
have a legit adopter approved, are healthy ATM, & weigh at least 2#. There's a huge database to mine,
if anyone were concerned about the lifelong effects of pediatric desex.
If there's no pre-approved adopter, they don't desex - as the pup or kitten might be euthed as surplus.
No point in neutering an animal U may euthanize, is there?

Similarly, AUSTRALIA has done pediatric desex in municipal shelters for decades. Their studies have
found no long-term deleterious effects.

But keep ranting - don't let petty facts stop ya. 
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> ...
> I do find it interesting that Drs won't spay women when they request it, but it's ok to [desex]
> kittens & pups...





Sarah H said:


> ...weird, right?
> 
> My friend has had 2 kids (& at school, she said she'd never have them  ), & she's 26-YO.
> As she had to have c-secs, she wanted a hysterectomy after her 2nd, but the the docs refused to do it,
> ...





StormyThai said:


> I'll never have children, I know I'll never have children; I've requested [OHE] several times, as my cycles
> are very painful. They won't even consider it, because apparently I may change my mind.





Meezey said:


> Very true, still requesting it &... being told medically there's no way they'll put me through major surgery!
> I know humans aren't dogs [any] more than cats are dogs, but [it's a] tough surgery [& a] tough recovery!


Well, gee - another thing we have in common. :thumbsup: At 25-YO, i went to a [male] ob-gyn to ask
about a hysterectomy, as i didn't want / need to CARRY a child to love one, & thought adoption would be fine.
I was 25-YO, healthy, & wanted a permanent vacation from menses.

The twit Dr proceeded to punch an ovary during his clumsy exam, used a stone-cold S/S speculum,
& was a patronizing a$$ of the highest order, explaining to me as if i was 5-YO that if i did this,
it couldn't be un-done. Well, DUH - i'd been overseeing the breeding, birthing, & rearing of livestock for the
previous 13-years, i knew all about lactation, preg, birth, Pyo, sepsis, C-sxns, etc, etc. Jerk. :mad5:

And yes - i was completely sane, legally adult, & couldn't find a Dr who'd do the surgery.

BTW, he was the 2nd & *last* male ob-gyn i ever saw; he mumbled an apology & tried to continue
his fumbling exam, just after belting my right ovary with his hand sharply. YOW! - i hadn't even gotten
my breath back, yet, & this callous arse is just going merrily along! --- I was mightily tempted to yank
a foot from the stirrup, kick his groin sharply, then mumble a half-hearted apology, & see how he'd react.
:thumbdown: What a farce.

however...
we are discussing abdominal-surgery in human ADULTS, which cannot be compared to desex in neonates
or juveniles who have not even reached puberty. Apples & potatoes, in comparison; plus, we don't do
OHE / HE in minor-F children except in extremely-unusual circs, for obvious reasons.

NO * NONHUMAN gets desexed voluntarily, no matter what her or his age; so ranting that it's "unfair"
to desex a pup or kitten, as opposed to a dog or cat, is moot; none of them opt for neutering.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> It is 'safe' to S/N 4 to 5 WEEK-old rabbits - 'safe' as in, "the majority survive the initial [surgery]".
> 
> Safety does not make it right or ethical IMHO.
> ...


 - Many vets & also entire shelters, with multiple vets & thousands of animals desexed annually,
have YET to lose a single pup or kitten from complications during or subsequent to pediatric-surgery.

- statistically, risks for desex are higher for pubertal than pediatric patients, & higher-yet for adults.

- the biggest risk for pediatric desex is loss of body-heat / hypothermia, & vets who do many pediatric
surgeries use several inexpensive, simple ways to keep their small patients warm to the core: reflective
safety-blankets, heated bags of saline as surgical props to either side, a microwaveable gel-pad under
the patient, etc.

- infection, bleeding, scarring, are all minimized; healing is much faster.
What's not to like?
.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> This is the USA - the links i provided re cats are *specific* to the UK, as is logical.
> I was responding to a comment about UK-desex practices; according to Cat Protection, over 900 UK-vets
> are listed on their search-engine as providing "early", under-16-WO, neutering.
> 
> ...


Lmao ranting only one ranting sweet cheeks is yourself, I think? You will struggle to find a vet who will SnN before 6 months some will do 4 months my own vet said they would neuter the male at 5 but the female at 6 months! Go down to cat chat and see how many of the UK breeder SnN before rehoming, they might want to but most will struggle to find any vet? Pedigree kittens can not leave until 12 weeks! Great wonderful what the CP post in practice in RL rather than copy and paste it is not the cast, I copied the thread from cat chat because it states by members that very few on the list will do kittens at 4 months. So you are still incorrect about cats in the UK.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> But keep ranting - don't let petty facts stop ya


You are the only one who seems to be point blank ignoring the facts. I don't think anyone has said that pediatric neutering operations are unsafe - that is not what's in dispute.

However there are several studies showing direct links between juvie neutering and long term health and longevity.

I was completely pro-neutering myself until I saw them; but with current available evidence my views have changed accordingly. This is not about mindless ranting it's about people wanting to do what's best for their dogs!

Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs

I'm sharing this particular link because it gives details from several studies showing the harmful effects of neutering; of course if you want more detail you can always look up the studies directly but I thought this gave a nice overview of the varied problems it can cause.

ETA: Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Another more informative look at the available evidence.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

FWIW I was not ranting, nor was I comparing humans to cats or dogs..I merely stated that I find it interesting.

I'm afraid to say only one poster ranting here and it isn't any of the accused


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Last point the USA still dock, crop, use e collars, prong collars, declaw cats etc as a nom ( thankfully enlightened people are slowly changing this) need I go on? I'd rather take advice from someone from what I consider a more forward thinking mindset on companion animal welfare when it comes to what is right when it comes to SnN and I am sorry but no one will ever convince me that spaying or neutering a puppy is the right way to go nor do I think you need to be a rocket scientist to know that it is NOT in the animals best interest mentally or physically.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ...
> You will struggle to find a [UK-]vet who will S/N before 6-MO; some will @ 4-MO, my own vet said they'd
> neuter [a] male at 5-MO, but Fs at 6-MO!
> 
> ...


Why should i go to Cat-Chat, when there is a *Breeding* sub-forum?... 


Meezey said:


> Emphasis added in *bold -*
> 
> Pedigree kittens *can not leave* until 12-WO!


under whose rules?
 I thought age to disperse is up to the breeder, & possibly at buyer's request, under some circs -
for Ex, if they're going out of town, the buyer might want to leave the kitten another week, & pick 'em up
after returning, or on their return trip.

If a breeder wants to have the kittens leave home & mum by 8 to 12-WO, it's not, to my knowledge,
*illegal in the UK - * the last time i asked, there apparently IS * NO minimum age to separate
pups or kittens from their littermates & dams. It's apparently left to "common sense", whatever the H***
that might be - since i've seen NC breeders deliver 5-WO pups direct to the buyer's door in VA, i have
no delusions about the impervious moral rectitude of breeders. :thumbdown:

For those who didn't notice above, the Federal USDA requires all pups & kittens to be a minimum
of 56-days / 8-WO to cross state-lines WITHOUT mum & all siblings. Under 8-WO, the whole family gotta
go as a unit; at or over 56-days, they can travel solo. *Therefore,* legally, a breeder cannot knowingly
sell a pup or kitten under 56-days age to a buyer who lives out of state - let alone DELIVER the infant
to the out-of-state buyer. :mad5:

I've managed to nail a few slimey arsewipes who sell underage pets interstate - but not many.
It's very discouraging. :nonod:


Meezey said:


> ... I copied *the thread [LINK] from cat chat*, because [some] members [state on it] that very few
> on the [Cat-Protection 'early S/N] list' will [desex] kittens at 4-MO. So you are still incorrect about cats
> in the UK.


Actually, IF U LOOK, U'll see that i posted on that thread, many weeks ago. :lol: And if the vets who
sign-on DO NOT desex at or under 4-MO, then bl**dy H**, Cat-Protection should throw them *off the list.*

There's no dam* point in having some useless toads squatting on a dedicated LIST, if they do not fulfill
the criteria required for membership - so toss the impostors off on their a$$es, & find other vets.

If it's that dam* hard to do in England, go to a neighboring country; it's not that hard to transport
a well-grown litter, & distances are short. Quit whining about it - i'm not the vet that's refusing to desex
the kitten, after all, am i?!
2 decent-sized crates will comfortably accommodate 3, 12 to 14-WO siblings, unless they're Maine Coons
or some other massive breed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ...*the USA* still dock, crop, use [shock-]collars, prong collars, declaw cats, etc, as a [norm, sic]...


The entire COUNTRY does not "crop, dock, use shock-collars, use prong-collars, declaw
every pet cat as a kitten", etc -

i know this because
A - i live here, & know many ppl who DO NOT dock, crop, use shock or prong or choke collars*
[* i'm one of that large group...],

B - many VETS here refuse to declaw *without a compelling medical reason - 
The owner has HIV/ AIDS or other severely-compromising immune illnesses,
the owner is on Coumadin & bleeds severely if scratched, or other specific justification.*

C - the AVMA has, IIRC, a position-paper on their website that condemns declaw unless it is a literal
last-resort - a behaviorist has been consulted, cat-trees & scratching posts or mats were provided, etc,
OR there is the above "medical grounds".


Meezey said:


> ...I'd rather take advice from someone from what I consider *a more forward thinking mindset*
> on companion animal welfare...


:lol: So "forward thinking" is sticking with pubertal desex, which was SOP in the 1950s, or perhaps all Fs
should have 'one litter' before they are spayed, as vets used to say in the Good Old Days?... 

Surgical techniques & materials have massively improved over the past 60-years; sutures, medications,
safe gas-anaesthesias, incision techniques, & so on, are very, very different. To me, it seems silly
to pretend that S/N is still the same surgery it was in my Grandmother's youth, when kittens. pups,
other neonates, & birds rarely survived any surgery but simple stitches for wounds, & GA was a major
lethal risk, even for humans. That's no longer true.
.
.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Surgical techniques & materials have massively improved over the past 60-years; sutures, medications,
> safe gas-anaesthesias, incision techniques, & so on, are very, very different. To me, it seems silly
> to pretend that S/N is still the same surgery it was in my Grandmother's youth, when kittens. pups,
> other neonates, & birds rarely survived any surgery but simple stitches for wounds, & GA was a major
> ...


But as several of us have pointed out now, it's not the risks the surgery itself involves that worry us, it's the long term effects of spaying and neutering at such a young age. Yes, it may well be "safe" as in the animal isn't likely to die from it. Doesn't mean it's the best thing for the animal though.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Again to much "ranting," for me to read! Just to answer a few things the GCCF while not law state in their code of ethics they recommend cats do not leave before 13 weeks so I was wrong it is not 12! So apologise for that those allowing them to go early risk being suspended our repeat offenfers banned! Good breeders keep to this! Btw you brought up your claim of most UK breeders SnN their kitten before they rehome? So not sure why you are telling me about MC breeders in the USA?

Also I didn't state all of the USA either.

You again are missing the point this is not about how safe the surgery is!

FYI you are aware England is an Island all its neighbours are part of the UK taking them to neighbouring countries means travelling over seas to Europe strange again how you think that is an acceptable risk to take travelling those distances with young animals? Again not sure who is whining?

Forward thinking is the long term welfare of animals not just carrying out surgery for the convience of humans?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> ... it's not the risks the surgery itself involves that worry us, it's the long term effects of spaying and neutering
> at such a young age. ...


[PDF] Early Spay-Neuter: Clinical Considerations - Univ of Minn.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rootk001/early_spay_neuter_article.pdf

Pediatric Spay/Neuter | ASPCA Professional
Pediatric Spay/Neuter | ASPCA Professional

from the above;


> _ Although millions of domesticated animals have been surgically sterilized, many veterinarians believe sufficient
> conclusive research has not been conducted to determine the best age or reproductive stage of life to spay
> & neuter dogs and cats.
> 
> ...


Early Spay/Neuter - The Cat Fanciers' Association
Early Spay/Neuter

Rebuttal to DVM Zink's oft-cited but poorly-written article:
"Rebuttal to 'Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete'
404 Not Found

Pediatric Spay/Neuter - Petfinder
https://www.petfinder.com/pro/for-shelters/pediatric-spay-neuter/

AVMA Collections: *Spay / Neuter* [topic] - 
*19* separate peer-reviewed journal articles on research re S/N
https://www.avma.org/news/journals/collections/pages/avma-collections-spayneuter.aspx
.
.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Interesting links Terry - considering most of them admit that neutering and/or early neutering is known to increase the risk of various cancers, hip dysplasia, urinary inconctinence, cruciate ligament rupture, and various other health issues as well as noise phobias and sexual behaviours.

Which is exactly what we have been saying!

Neutering is not all roses and kittens; there are benefits but there are also risks and these need to be considered on a case by case basis.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Again, [too] much "ranting," for me to read!


if U want a reply that isn't a monosyllable, i have to be able to REPLY - not contradict. :thumbdown:

If U can't be bothered to read it, don't. Others can. :shrug:


Meezey said:


> Continued:
> 
> ... why you are telling me about MC breeders in the USA?


i didn't mention "Maine Coon breeders in the USA".

I said that multiple siblings of one litter should easily fit in one good-sized crate, for transport to another,
more-distant vet, who DOES do pediatric [4-MO & under] desex, outside of or within the UK... *if* those kits
are not of a giant breed, e-g, Maine Coons or similar.


Meezey said:


> ...Also I didn't state all of the USA either.
> ...


Yes, actually, U did.


Meezey said:


> Last point -
> the USA still dock, crop, use e collars, prong collars, declaw cats, etc, as a [norm, sic] -
> thankfully, enlightened people are slowly changing this.
> Need I go on?
> ...


U put absolutely NO qualifiers on that statement. As far as U're concerned, EVERY PET-OWNER IN THE USA
"docks, crops, uses prong & shock-collars, declaws cats, etc, as a norm".

Which - as i pointed out - is simply not true.
.
.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> if U want a reply that isn't a monosyllable, i have to be able to REPLY - not contradict. :thumbdown:
> 
> If U can't be bothered to read it, don't. Others can. :shrug:
> 
> ...


And the part where I said EVERYONE? And the bit of thankfully enlightened people are changing it? Think you will find as far as you are concerned you add and subtract as you see fit  again you are reading what you want on numerous occasions I have explained why I can't read your posts and even apologised, although not sure why I did, you have chosen to ignore them! Sorry to say can't change my dyslexia to make it understand your chosen style of writing! Not entirely sure what you want to to do about it? Others write long post that I find easy to read?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Seriously, you think a cat, or dog breeder in the UK should ship their kittens and puppies abroad to get them neutered. 

Seeing as most of us posting from the UK don't think early neuter is a good idea and apparently most UK vets don't think it's a good idea either, sending moggie off to France (oh, they don't think it's a good idea there either) or pup off to erm, Africa? Cyprus? 

No wait, I know. To the good old USofA where you can find a vet to do pretty much anything. :thumbup1:

Goodness L4L I normally thoroughly enjoy your posts, but trying to translate your extensive postings regarding your support of early neuter and ridiculous suggestions of shipping overseas has even me beat. 

You do know we wouldn't be able to bring them back into the UK until after rabies vaccinations, or perhaps a few months in quarantine don't you? How much do you think it would cost?  

Not really feasible then, even if we did think it was a good idea. Would you ship your moggie over to us in the UK for early neuter if the boot was on the other foot?

Maybe I've mistranslated, I hope so.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> Seriously, you think a cat, or dog breeder in the UK should *ship* their kittens and puppies abroad to get them neutered.


not "ship"! - I was thinking of DRIVING them there, if early-neuter is supposedly so doggone hard
to find in the UK. There are ferries, & the Chunnel.


Elles said:


> You do know we wouldn't be able to bring them back into the UK until after rabies vaccinations,
> or perhaps a few months in quarantine, don't you? How much do you think it would cost?


so shoot me in front of a firing-squad - i forgot about the UK powers-that-be & their paranoia about
rabies, which kept a 6-mo quarantine as a legal hurdle for decade after decade, when it wasn't needed
& created awful hardship for pet-owners & pets.

I don't know how long U have to wait for a pet-passport, nor minimum age for a dog or cat to get one;
obviously, i don't live there, i don't know the pertinent regulations, & it wouldn't work for pediatric desex.

Build a guillotine - or perhaps a gibbet for a hanging.  It really doesn't matter anymore,
as no one is interested, & the OP gave-up days ago.

I think mine was 1 of about 4 posts that actually addressed the OP's request for help with behavior.
As soon as LostBear said neutering could help, the whole topic was whittled to a mere splinter.

this dog is 6-MO --------- not 3-mos, not 8-WO, but pubertal.
Discussing pediatric desex is entirely aside from the Shar-Pei who's nominally the subject
of this thread.
.
.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Well I didn't bring up paediatric desex, or shipping babies abroad to remove their nuts.  (when posh folk ship their 7 year olds off to boarding school, it doesn't mean in a ship, or unaccompanied in the mail, it can mean their parents driving them, it's a figure of speech)

I just managed to imagine a convoy of young pups and kittens travelling in boxes, in the boots of cars, to Europe to have their bits removed earlier than uk vets think appropriate and how ridiculous it would be, in response to your post suggesting that litters are crated up and taken abroad. Of course you can't know how impractical it is not living here, but I can assure you, it's impractical, especially for APOs. 

There'd be an uproar, I can just imagine the Daily Mail headlines now. :scared:

The UK rabies paranoia has kept this country clear of rabies.

I agree, I think the OP is long gone.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> not "ship"! - I was thinking of DRIVING them there, if early-neuter is supposedly so doggone hard
> to find in the UK. There are ferries, & the Chunnel.
> 
> so shoot me in front of a firing-squad - i forgot about the UK powers-that-be & their paranoia about
> ...


Oh now come on you ignored OP and waded in about pack theory in you first post lol lets not pretend your not as to blame as everyone else in the thread for whittling it to splinters lol

We are an island did you miss that? You can't just drive them less of course you go by tunnel but who knows if France neuter so young? Or how eeasy it is to register with a vet? 15 weeks BTW for pet passport...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I suppose if you look at a map, mainland Europe appears feasible. Like going to texas if you live in new york, but nearer. It's about as feasible as Americans taking their pups to Japan for the op in reality though. There'd be all sorts of hoops to go through and more to come back again. It's not as easy as it might seem.

So that option can be dismissed, even if we do all agree with neutering young puppies and kittens and it would seem that we don't.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Minimum age for rabies jab is 12 weeks apparently. Then you have to wait 21 days after having it to be able to enter the UK so pups by this point are 15 weeks old. So not exactly feasible to take pups and kittens from the UK to mainland europe for ridiculously early (imo) neutering. And good luck finding a vet in Germany to do it that young anyway! It's hard to even get one to agree to neuter before 12 months let alone 12 weeks!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> not "ship"! - I was thinking of DRIVING them there, if early-neuter is supposedly so doggone hard
> to find in the UK. There are ferries, & the Chunnel.
> .


Seriously, hun - it just ain't doable

And if you disregard the rabies laws & stuff, being an island means to get off it, you need ferries or tunnels, and I think the cost of a return trip would shock you just a little! 

Just think of my friends on the Isle of Wight, a small but very lovely and pastoral island off the South Coast of England. Their 3 mile ferry crossing to the mainland is said to be the most expensive in the world as regard cost per mile.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

Meezey said:


> And the part where I said EVERYONE? And the bit of thankfully enlightened people are changing it? Think you will find as far as you are concerned you add and subtract as you see fit  again you are reading what you want on numerous occasions I have explained why I can't read your posts and even apologised, although not sure why I did, you have chosen to ignore them! Sorry to say can't change my dyslexia to make it understand your chosen style of writing! Not entirely sure what you want to to do about it? Others write long post that I find easy to read?


I have dyslexia and I'm really struggling to read those posts too  this whole thread is giving me a headache (which is why I started the one about neutering). Also Leashed for life - why do you only write half a line then move onto the next line? I think that might be part of the problem i'm having reading the posts as well as the writing style


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SageFemme said:


> I have dyslexia and I'm really struggling to read those posts too  this whole thread is giving me a headache (which is why I started the one about neutering). Also Leashed for life - why do you only write half a line then move onto the next line? I think that might be part of the problem i'm having reading the posts as well as the writing style


Thank you for this.. :thumbup1: As think lfl just thinks I was being lazy for not reading them.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Even the professionals are having second thoughts on this blanket spay/neuter thing 



> Additional studies are needed on the biological effects of removing gonadal hormones and on methods to render dogs infertile that do not involve gonadectomy. Veterinarians should discuss the benefits and possible adverse effects of gonadectomy with clients, giving consideration to the breed of dog, the owner's circumstances, and the anticipated use of the dog.


Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral di... - PubMed - NCBI

I'm sorry L4L it isn't as simple as you try to make it out...That's the great thing about science, just because we have been doing something for X amount of time without apparent issues, science comes along and turns it all on it's head 

It will never be as simple as cut the furry teabags off to get a well behaved dog, ANY surgery should be done with the best interests of the dog at heart, NOT because it makes life easier for the human.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SageFemme said:


> I have dyslexia and I'm really struggling to read those posts too  this whole thread is giving me a headache (which is why I started the one about neutering). Also Leashed for life - why do you only write half a line then move onto the next line? I think that might be part of the problem i'm having reading the posts as well as the writing style


I do not have dyslexia, I am good at skim reading but there is no way I have ever been able to read her posts. They are so badly written it is impossible to make sense of them unless you concentrate fully and even then they do not seem to be readable.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I do not have dyslexia, I am good at skim reading but there is no way I have ever been able to read her posts. They are so badly written it is impossible to make sense of them unless you concentrate fully and even then they do not seem to be readable.


I can read them and make sense of them. Usually anyway lol. Something does make them difficult to read though and I'm not sure exactly what. Formatting perhaps? Which is a shame as many of her posts make good points (even if I don't agree with her on this issue lol) and yet many people seem to struggle to read them.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

For me it's mostly the acronyms I think. I only found out what an APO is from this thread. I thought it was probably something not good, but wasn't sure what. I have to stop when there's something like M:M, or a bit of text speak to work out what it means, by which time I've lost track of what I'm reading. If I see capitals in the middle of a sentence, it usually stops my speed reading too, I think my brain must think it's something important, so if it says U instead of you, that breaks the flow too, as do the bracketed parts.

The behaviour type of posts I do usually manage because I'm very interested in what leashedForLife says about behaviour, but the neuter ones I usually skip. 

(apologies)


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I do not have dyslexia, I am good at skim reading but there is no way I have ever been able to read her posts. They are so badly written it is impossible to make sense of them unless you concentrate fully and even then they do not seem to be readable.


Me too. I find her posts almost illegible. By the time you get to the end, (if you can make it that far), you've forgotten what was at the beginning.

Surely, just posting as everyone else does, would be more interesting and get the point across better?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

* My time on-line is _extremely_ limited.

* My client is in bed, or i couldn't even post tonite.

* There's no Web-hookup in the condo, so aside from literal minutes like this, I * AM * CUT * OFF
5 days of 7.

* I don't have time to write a bl**dy book for every comment.

* If U need definitions for common acronyms, please see the sticky on ABBREVIATIONS.
I won't apologize for using them.

now... that used-up 10-minutes of my half-hour. 
Good night.

PS - the use of "U" is because i find it irritating that English lacks a formal "You", as seen in Deutsch,
Espanol, etc, & "Thou" / "thine" is too dam*ed clumsy for daily use.
.
.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Practically the whole of petforums are begging you to change so that we find your posts a bit easier to read, because we do actually want to read them. You're very stubborn. 

The trouble with the common acronyms is they aren't very common, but as there's a sticky I suppose I can't complain about them.

How about you keep the acronyms then, but don't waste time with starring, capitalising, bolding, bracketing and dotting for emphasis. That way you save time and we can see how it works and get back to you. It should be easier and quicker for you type up and easier and quicker for at least some of us, especially the dyslexic, to read. I could be wrong, but worth a try?

Up to you of course.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> * My time on-line is _extremely_ limited.
> 
> * My client is in bed, or i couldn't even post tonite.
> 
> ...


I enjoy your post and they are very knowledgeable and I appreciate it is your time and time can be hard to find, as I said I don't not read your post because they are too long or you use abbreviation or I am lazy or rude, I can't read long post from you, I physically can't as they give me thumping headaches, unscrambling words itself is a mental drain to most dyslexics, the sentence structure, and punctuation, capital letters often make sentences make sense and words are easier to recognise when associated with the word in front or next to it or in the same sentence depending on how tired my brain is! When there is no proper structure, punctuation, and capital letters it bloody hurts trying to unscramble it.

It's not a sympathy vote, it's not me being rude or lazy it just a physically can not read long posts you write..


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I enjoy your post and they are very knowledgeable and I appreciate it is your time and time can be hard to find, as I said I don't not read your post because they are too long or you use abbreviation or I am lazy or rude, I can't read long post from you, I physically can't as they give me thumping headaches, unscrambling words itself is a mental drain to most dyslexics, the sentence structure, and punctuation, capital letters often make sentences make sense and words are easier to recognise when associated with the word in front or next to it or in the same sentence depending on how tired my brain is! When there is no proper structure, punctuation, and capital letters it bloody hurts trying to unscramble it.
> 
> It's not a sympathy vote, it's not me being rude or lazy it just a physically can not read long posts you write..


I agree, it's a shame as I'd love to read them properly, the shorter ones aren't as bad but I physically cannot read the longer ones. It's no dig at you LFL and I hope you aren't offended but I'm glad it has been pointed out because honestly I thought it was just me so never said anything before.


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