# Experience V Qualifications



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

An interesting point raised on another thread is the age old Experience V Qualifications debate.

In a situation where "qualified" behaviourists are turning up everywhere with little more than a few days "residential training" under their belts and pound signs in there eyes it is becoming harder for the public to make an informed choice when dealing with a problem. 

Many Gundog trainers have years of experience yet zero qualifications and having watched one a couple of weeks ago i was awestruck by his obvious skill talent and dedication to his craft.

Is it essential to have both or is one enough ??


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I think some of each is good, I'd rather know a 'qualified' behaviourist had been out there actually working with dogs, not just concentrating on the theory


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Both is clearly the ultimate but can you have one without the other.

I don't beleive you can have qualifications without experience but i do believe you can have experience without qualifications


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Both is clearly the ultimate but can you have one without the other.
> 
> I don't beleive you can have qualifications without experience but i do believe you can have experience without qualifications


sorry, I misread that (slight hangover) yep, I'd say that's true, like a lot of these so-called government experts who sit around pushing pens, they need to be out there living it not reading/writing about it. I'd listen to advice from someone I knew had dealt with a behaviour problem before, such as my auntie, who has kept border collies for 30 years, both working & pet, her latest one had serious issues after a horrific & abusive start in life but is now coming along really well


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Both is clearly the ultimate but can you have one without the other.
> 
> I don't beleive you can have qualifications without experience but i do believe you can have experience without qualifications


I agree with this, I personally know many gundog trainers, many only training their own dogs but also a few that help others.
Not one has qualifications other than years of experience and I would recommend most to other people.
I must admit to only knowing one "qualified" trainer and I do everything in my power to prevent people going there. The use of shock collars, pinch collars and extremely harsh methods are not what I think of as training


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> sorry, I misread that (slight hangover) yep, I'd say that's true, like a lot of these so-called government experts who sit around pushing pens, they need to be out there living it not reading/writing about it. I'd listen to advice from someone I knew had dealt with a behaviour problem before, such as my auntie, who has kept border collies for 30 years, both working & pet, her latest one had serious issues after a horrific & abusive start in life but is now coming along really well


:thumbup:

Nothing quite like a dog with serious issues to increase your knowledge :001_cool: Glad the dog is coming on well after a horrible start


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

rona said:


> I agree with this, I personally know many gundog trainers, many only training their own dogs but also a few that help others.
> Not one has qualifications other than years of experience and I would recommend most to other people.
> I must admit to only knowing one "qualified" trainer and I do everything in my power to prevent people going there. The use of shock collars, pinch collars and extremely harsh methods are not what I think of as training


Can't remember the name of the guy i saw Rona but he was awesome. A joy to watch :thumbup: Such rapport with his dogs


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

experience is essential qualifications are not.

Its important to remember though... everyone has to start somewhere, you cant become experienced without someone trusting you to start with!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> experience is essential qualifications are not.
> 
> Its important to remember though... everyone has to start somewhere, you cant become experienced without someone trusting you to start with!


I think that that is why it is easier for someone in the gundog world to become a trainer, you have such a show case for your work.
I know someone who has trained many many excellent gundogs, he isn't a trainer, but I'm sure if he ever took it up, he would be inundated with clients


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> experience is essential qualifications are not.
> 
> Its important to remember though... everyone has to start somewhere, you cant become experienced without someone trusting you to start with!


True BBM but surely that's easier with dogs than most proffessions. Owning your own, volunteering at rescues etc will all gain a person valuable experience 

Imagine being a trainee brain surgeon  Who the hell do you get to let you practice on :lol:

When i was a trainee hairdresser OMG the stuff my poor family were subjected to while i was learning :lol: My poor little brother didn't have a decent haircut through most of his childhood and i turned my Mum into a tabby cat after one particularly "artistic" session :scared:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

rona said:


> I think that that is why it is easier for someone in the gundog world to become a trainer, you have such a show case for your work.
> I know someone who has trained many many excellent gundogs, he isn't a trainer, but I'm sure if he ever took it up, he would be inundated with clients


Must admit if i did any further training with oscar i would go down this route, maybe because of his breed i think they have the most to offer my circumstances


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## Merlin Birmingham (Apr 4, 2010)

Sorry to turn hijack this thread but lets turn this around,

If you were admitted to hospital and were told you had to have a life saving operation on your heart and were offered two doctors what would you choose.

A Surgeon who had just come out of medical school who had only observed but is now fully qualified, or a surgeon who was trained the old fashioned way with no qualifications but on a hands on approach?

Personally I would ask for them both to be in there, the experience for well the obvious reasons and the newbie for his theory skills and also the experienced guy isnt going to be around for ever, we need to replace the dying with new people!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Must admit if i did any further training with oscar i would go down this route, maybe because of his breed i think they have the most to offer my circumstances


There are a lot of bad ones out there, so do be careful


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Merlin Birmingham said:


> Sorry to turn hijack this thread but lets turn this around,
> 
> If you were admitted to hospital and were told you had to have a life saving operation on your heart and were offered two doctors what would you choose.
> 
> ...


I had a trainee midwife deliver my first baby for that very reason, NEVER AGAIN !!!!!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lol rainy

brain surgeons... well there has to be a first time!!! Junior doctors lol They fill most nhs hospitals, while the consultants go off to play golf


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

rona said:


> There are a lot of bad ones out there, so do be careful


Doubt i will ever have the funds to be honest Rona but i wouldn't go with anyone without watching them work first and checking out their methods. The guy i saw at Wood Green offers training i think so i would probably hunt him down


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> lol rainy
> 
> brain surgeons... well there has to be a first time!!! Junior doctors lol They fill most nhs hospitals, while the consultants go off to play golf


You ain't wrong there poor buggers. Took me 4 hours to convince a junior doctor to just look down sophies throat when she swallowed a grass seed, they were gonna stick a flippin camera down her and she was just 8 months !!!! All it took was a torch and some long handles tweezers  which is what the senior consultant did when he finally arrived


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I had a trainee midwife deliver my first baby for that very reason, NEVER AGAIN !!!!!


lol i am the opposite!

I had an old battle ax with mya, and then had a c section. With Cadan i had an ward sister and also a trainee midwife. She was the loveliest person ever, but then i also had about 11 other people in the room too.... i should have sold tickets!
:lol:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> You ain't wrong there poor buggers. Took me 4 hours to convince a junior doctor to just look down sophies throat when she swallowed a grass seed, they were gonna stick a flippin camera down her and she was just 8 months !!!! All it took was a torch and some long handles tweezers  which is what the senior consultant did when he finally arrived


lmao I had a junior doc who looked about 12 do my colposcopy in my late teens! Very very fit looking, and me i the most cringeworthy position while he played space invadors with a lazer and my cervix!

NOT FUN!

Then again, cadans real consultant for his hernia op was about 90 and had the most terrible shakes! I was sooo pleased when it was his younger registra who did the op!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> lmao I had a junior doc who looked about 12 do my colposcopy in my late teens! Very very fit looking, and me i the most cringeworthy position while he played space invadors with a lazer and my cervix!
> 
> NOT FUN!
> 
> Then again, cadans real consultant for his hernia op was about 90 and had the most terrible shakes! I was sooo pleased when it was his younger registra who did the op!


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I know i shouldn't laugh but :lol:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

OK I think this is based on a point I had made or perhaps replied to  Within the pet care industry right now there are only two positions by law that require a specific educational standard as well as experience/hours and practical performance. I am speaking of Ireland right now, but I think the UK is similar.

Those positions are that of vet surgeon and vet nurse. Yes there are bad ones, decent ones and excellent ones within this category - but thats the same across many professions.

I wold never suggest that academic quals are the be all and end all but there has to be a basic standard. I believe that to achieve a satifactory min educational standard there should be an applied part of that qual. Just as for other professions.

To me, behavioural, psychological and emotional health is as important as physiological and as such I think that to be practicing a trainer or behaviourist should have a minimum standard of education (to include practical work) and perhaps a min number of hours or maybe a grading system- so after achieving a certain number of hours and completing case studies etc. that you bump up a level etc.

THe animal care industry, and particularly the behaviour industry, is a very new one and is evolving at a rapid pace. There are changes coming and they will hopefully be for the better.

Behavioural, emotional and psychological health in people is treated by professionals with a basic, universal minimum standard of education which includes experience (or at least should if they are working with patients and not just lab/research work).
Education of people is carried out by professionals with a min standard of education plus a certain number of class contact hours and case studies etc.
Why should it be different for treating and educating animals?

Of course there are good and bad educators/psychologists etc. but there have to minimum standards - without standards we are without standards 
And its the animals that suffer everytime.

Again, in Ireland I work in rescue (I say work but I mean volunteer!!) with a group that works out of a pound to get the dogs to safety. We had the second lowest PTS rate out of all the pounds in Ireland in 2008 (waiting for 2009 figures) second only to a smaller pound run by one of the largest welfare groups in Ireland! We are also the busiest pound with more dogs coming through than any other pound in Ireland. I'm saying this because we come across _a lot _of dogs. Well over 90% of those dogs are between the ages of 9 months-3 years. These dogs are teenagers and teenage behaviour, bad as a result of lack of proper early socialisation and training, is the biggest issue for getting rid of a dog. There is a similar pattern in the US and I am sure the UK.

IMO animal welfare suffers because the animal care industry is staffed by individuals who are undereducated and therefore unable to educate pet owners. And thats the front line.

I feel really passionate about this working in rescue and working in animal care education and I based on that i believe it is the only way forward.

Ok off my soapbox


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

Education only works if the person "learning" actually puts into practice what they learn.
I know so called educated people, one being a human councillor and one a dog trainer, who are so arrogant that although they have passed said exams, training courses etc., believe that they still know better and act accordingly. 
These people frighten me, You are not supposed to question them because "they've done the courses"


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Where behaviour is concerned I do think that qualifications or at least 'proof of learning' are as important as hands on experience, showing that the person has bothered to take the time and trouble to learn about canine behaviour in the wider sense, rather than just going on the dogs that they themselves have experienced. 

For instance, a weekend course on canine behaviour with an expert can teach someone so much more than watching a dvd or reading a book or two and normally fosters in them an urge to learn even more about how dogs learn and think. 

Many self styled 'behaviourists' seem to think that by dealing with the symptoms sorts out the problem. What they fail to appreciate is that they must also determine the root cause of the symptoms and deal with that or the effects of their treatment will only be temporary. 

I consider being a behaviourist is akin to being a plumber or electrician in some ways. You need to be professional, have experience and be qualified, showing that you know your subject rather more thoroughly than the average handyman.

Some people specialising in dog training tend to stick with what they know all too often and not that many will think outside the box or evolve their methods as better ones come along. I consider that a great shame for dogs. A good trainer learns from practical experience but also furthers their own knowledge, not just by reading books and watching DVDs but also from attending courses and weekends where they can learn new techniques and update their own knowledge rather than just relying on what they learned 20 years ago. Not all people who are good at training dogs are good at teaching people either and that is ultimately what a dog training instructor has to do - teach people.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

tripod said:


> Behavioural, emotional and psychological health in people is treated by professionals with a basic, universal minimum standard of education which includes experience (or at least should if they are working with patients and not just lab/research work).
> Education of people is carried out by professionals with a min standard of education plus a certain number of class contact hours and case studies etc.
> *Why should it be different for treating and educating animals?*
> 
> ...


brilliant post anne, my feelings exactly...and i do think that it is only a matter of time before this actually happens.

In answer to the original question, I would want both experience and qualifications. Yes I am sure there are many great people out there with no qualifications and lots of experience, but finding them is a different matter! and to the new pet owners etc, it is dangerous, as they cannot often tell the difference between the good and bad.

Also to add - it is not just qualifications, but the RIGHT qualifications...there are a lot of courses out there, but not all are good.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

rona said:


> Education only works if the person "learning" actually puts into practice what they learn.
> I know so called educated people, one being a human councillor and one a dog trainer, who are so arrogant that although they have passed said exams, training courses etc., believe that they still know better and act accordingly.
> These people frighten me, You are not supposed to question them because "they've done the courses"


I know what you mean Rona, I had the bad experience of being in training class with someone like this with maggie (big mistake when she was younger)!!!

But, this is where it comes down to being the *RIGHT* qualifications again though...

Also I think being a member of a professional body (but again a GOOD one), is important too, as they have a code of conduct or ethics to abide by and anyone reported can be struck off. However, when i looked into the guys' above, they were rubbish as had no code or anything, so nothing to report him against!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

tripod said:


> OK I think this is based on a point I had made or perhaps replied to  Within the pet care industry right now there are only two positions by law that require a specific educational standard as well as experience/hours and practical performance. I am speaking of Ireland right now, but I think the UK is similar.
> 
> Those positions are that of vet surgeon and vet nurse. Yes there are bad ones, decent ones and excellent ones within this category - but thats the same across many professions.
> 
> I wold never suggest that academic quals are the be all and end all but there has to be a basic standard. I believe that to achieve a satifactory min educational standard there should be an applied part of that qual. Just as for other professions.


Absolutely! 

I volunteered then worked for a while at a dog shelter once and I was appalled at the lack of knowledge of even basic dog behaviour shown by the managers let alone the staff! I persuaded them to allow me to work on several 'library' dogs (taken out one week, returned the next) and soon had those dogs adopted permanantly. One needed a change of diet onto a gentler, gluten free one. Result was that the long term house training problem was cured within days as she not longer had an irritable bowel!  Another was depressed and aggressive through grief. He had been labelled as 'nasty' - he wasn't! A quiet, calm attitude and patience encouraged a rather sad but gentle dog to emerge and once brought out of his pit of despair, the dog was rehomed with a single, older gentleman as he was more used to that sort of home. A dog who consistently refused to go in his kennel at bedtime and who became aggreessive just needed more understanding rather than being dragged in there! But they should have known all this!!! It's all very well having a qualification in kennel management etc but the dogs have mental needs too.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> *Many self styled 'behaviourists' seem to think that by dealing with the symptoms sorts out the problem. *What they fail to appreciate is that they must also determine the root cause of the symptoms and deal with that or the effects of their *treatment will only be temporary*.
> 
> I consider being a behaviourist is akin to being a plumber or electrician in some ways. *You need to be professional, have experience and be qualified, showing that you know your subject rather more thoroughly than the average* handyman.
> 
> ...




:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

Does anyone know what KC registered means in terms of dog training?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

rona said:


> Does anyone know what KC registered means in terms of dog training?


 The Kennel Club Accreditation Scheme for Instructors in Dog Training and Canine Behaviour - The Kennel Club


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> An interesting point raised on another thread is the age old Experience V Qualifications debate.
> 
> In a situation where "qualified" behaviourists are turning up everywhere with little more than a few days "residential training" under their belts and pound signs in there eyes it is becoming harder for the public to make an informed choice when dealing with a problem.
> 
> ...


What do you mean by qualified? I think people perhaps need to be better educated on exactly what qualified means, and question those that use the terminology in their literature exactly what they mean and qhat qualifications they have! 

For instance to be a CCAB (Certified Clinical Animal Behaviourist) you need to have a post grad degree and 3 years practical case studies under the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors/Companion Animal Welfare Council requirements, no small thing! To be a member of APBC you need a degree, for CAPBT you need their Advanced Diploma which has a huge amount of detail and does pretty much cover the same as a degree its just hugely intensive, shame they cant get it up to degree/APBC level but I suppose two different types of organisations. 

Training and behaviour are different though of course they overlap; you need some behaviour knowledge to be a good dog trainer because you need to understand the mechanics behind the dog and its thought process/learning theory, and a behaviourist who cant train a dog is useless! :thumbup:

I dont think you need lots of qualifications to be a good dog trainer, but you do need to keep your skills up to date, as in any profession.

For behaviour and training I think their should be better regulation, but I dont expect it to come in any time soon.

Someone can have been doing training for 25 years, doesnt mean theyre doing it right. 

We all have to learn when we first start, and getting that first kind of practical experiene is IME pretty hard. Be good if there was a mentor scheme.



rona said:


> Does anyone know what KC registered means in terms of dog training?


Further to Caroline's link, it can also simply mean a KC registered dog club (Not for profit, with a committee who work for the good of the club  so not necessarily accredited instructors) or ones who just practice/test for the Good Cit Scheme! Dont be fooled into thinking the KCAI is worth much either.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> What do you mean by qualified? I think people perhaps need to be better educated on exactly what qualified means, and question those that use the terminology in their literature exactly what they mean and qhat qualifications they have!
> 
> For instance to be a CCAB (Certified Clinical Animal Behaviourist) you need to have a post grad degree and 3 years practical case studies under the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors/Companion Animal Welfare Council requirements, no small thing! To be a member of APBC you need a degree, for CAPBT you need their Advanced Diploma which has a huge amount of detail and does pretty much cover the same as a degree its just hugely intensive, shame they cant get it up to degree/APBC level but I suppose two different types of organisations.
> 
> ...


Thankyou you make the point beautifully . Average Jo Bod looking for a trainer/behaviourist would not know all of the above and could get totally fooled by the whole "accredited by and affiliated to" nonsense that exists in lots of professions where basically you pay your membership fee and get to stick a swish looking logo on your literature 

I don't necessarily agree about the qualifications for behaviour though. I think *good *trainers do understand behaviour on a very very deep level from studying dogs over many years.

Example - Was watching a sheep dog demo last summer. Oscar had sheep "issues" and would bark and lunge relentlessly when he saw them. I took him along and was doing some desensitising with him, gradually moving him closer as his comfort levels increased. I asked the demonstrator if he minded me getting a bit more up close and personal as i felt it was a valuable opportunity to do some work with Oscar. He agreed to give me some pointers. He observed Oscar who to a lay person just looked like he wanted to attack the sheep. He totally recognised that Oscar was displaying fear aggression and not aggression and showed me how to gently alleviate that fear. In the end Oscar was sitting happily next to the enclosure.

If someone knows there craft they know it, dogs don't change, the fact their methods work doesn't change why would they need to attend courses and jump on the next bandwagon when they are happy with tried and tested methods that have worked for centuries


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> The Kennel Club Accreditation Scheme for Instructors in Dog Training and Canine Behaviour - The Kennel Club





London Dogwalker said:


> Further to Caroline's link, it can also simply mean a KC registered dog club (Not for profit, with a committee who work for the good of the club  so not necessarily accredited instructors) or ones who just practice/test for the Good Cit Scheme! Dont be fooled into thinking the KCAI is worth much either.


Thank you both, unfortunately the "trainer" I know that uses shock collars etc. is not listed although he claims to be KC registered. 
I wonder what register?????
I did try to report him to the KC, but as I can find no link to him on their site.
They weren't interested


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

THe KC accreditation scheme is not really about methods but more about self evaluated learning and assessing your own abilities. This is supervised by an assessor but its about documenting and evaluating your learning journey.

Scary that 'KC registered' is so unclear and dubious. This industry is ripe for people who want to scam and mislead 

I love the newer APDT UK assessment - it covers so many different areas and really is a thorough assessment. Now of course whether the person practices what they preach is a different thing but its a good place to start. But I have found APDT UK very quick to act in relation to reports of ethics breeches - so their standards are uphelp and are worth something.
We are hoping to develop something similar here - all in the pipeline 

If the training industry was regulated in some basic way owners could be given an idea of the basic standard they should be looking for when choosing a trainer or behaviourist. These two positions are quite different and will require different knowledge bases and different skill sets.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

tripod said:


> THe KC accreditation scheme is not really about methods but more about self evaluated learning and assessing your own abilities. This is supervised by an assessor but its about documenting and evaluating your learning journey.
> 
> Scary that 'KC registered' is so unclear and dubious. This industry is ripe for people who want to scam and mislead
> 
> ...


I do realise that, but had hoped, because of the KC stance on shock collars, that they might act, but no, one year on and this man is still running a thriving business


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

rona said:


> I do realise that, but had hoped, because of the KC stance on shock collars, that they might act, but no, one year on and this man is still running a thriving business


I wonder is there anything in their code of ethics that could form the basis of a complaint/investigation?
At the very least using KC name in an inappropriate way?


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

tripod said:


> I wonder is there anything in their code of ethics that could form the basis of a complaint/investigation?
> At the very least using KC name in an inappropriate way?


I was just told quite bluntly when I phoned, that they could do nothing


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Well

I started training in 1985 with my first dog a BC and boy have things changed since then. The only course available was a British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers Course - a week long residential course, which I did, half paid for by me, half by the training club in Southampton that I was training/teaching with.

Apart from various other courses and spending time with the likes of Roy Hunter, John Fisher and Roger Mugford, I have no 'formal' qualifications in dog behaviour/ training. Unless you count a Animal Behaviour Course with John Rogerson/Julie Sellors/Gwen Bailey (modules by post).

However I was fully employed as a 'dog trainer' for an assistance dog charity for over 12 years, managing one of their training centres, teaching new trainers about behaviour/training techniques and latterly, before I left on materinity leave, doing behavioural/problem visits - They employed a 'qualified' behaviourist to replace me when I said I couldn't go back, who despite having written books and produced videos, lasted less than a year.

I know a lot of people in dog behaviour - it is in fact a very small world - most now have gone on and done various courses to gain qualifications. Many are too members of the APDT, for which you have an assesment. Some are also working without formal qualifications, yet I would have no hesitation in recommending them. 

I have also interviewed potential new trainers for the organisation I worked for, who have done their degrees in dog behaviour, but couldn't enter a kennel, safely and correctly. They may be able to give 'off pat' a solution to a problem, but give them a dog and they were at a loss to show me one way of teaching a dog to walk to heel. This was pretty common I am afraid, so I do question what some of the colleges are turning out.

What is interesting now, is that I know of four separate assistant dog charities that within which, ALL the Head trainers/training mangers, have come up through the ranks with no formal qualification - I have worked with most of them  

I personally do think that there should be some 'proper' guidelines for those dealing with behaviour issues on an employed basis as an individual, there has to be some standard, but it will always be up to individuals to make sure who they employ for whatever job, has the skills to do that job well, whether a plumber, builder, hypnotherapist or dog trainer!

By the way, after a visit to Crufts this year, I have been asked to work for two other organisations involving dogs/training. Yet I still have no 'formal' qualification.

Kate


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

k8t said:


> Well
> 
> I started training in 1985 with my first dog a BC and boy have things changed since then. The only course available was a British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers Course - a week long residential course, which I did, half paid for by me, half by the training club in Southampton that I was training/teaching with.
> 
> ...


Well Done Kate, you are exactly the sort of person i mean :thumbup: and make a point very well 

I have met Mr Mugford when i had my very naughty GSD


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I would take experience of qualifications because qualifications are only worth the paper they're printed on.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm a firm believer that both experience and qualifications is preferable. I've seen too many that are clearly lacking in either one or the other.

There are a huge number of "unqualified" dog trainers who have been involved with dogs for decades but have apparently learned nothing in that time and so continue to use the methods that were common years ago - usually all the yank and stomp methods, choke chains, slapping, blaming everything on dominance. Hell you stil find the occassional one recommending "rubbing his nose in it" and all that rubbish. 

In cases like this I absolutely believe that just because you've been doing something for 30 years doesn't mean you've been doing ti right!

On the flip side, a person with the most and best qualifications but no epxerience is unlikely to be any good when they first attempt to actually do any training or behaviour work. So much of the skills, from timing, pre-empting behaviour, recognising subtle body language etc can only be mastered by working with dogs.

I do agree that a big problem is that not all qualifications are equal - some of the informal, not recognised short courses are some of the best available. I wouldn't necessarily want to find someone with the highest level of qual's - just someone with the most appropriate and preferably most up to date.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> If someone knows there craft they know it, *dogs don't change, the fact (that) their methods work doesn't change* -
> why would they need to attend courses and jump on the next bandwagon when (these trainers) are happy with tried and tested methods that have worked for centuries


hey, rainy! :--) 
i just saw this, so have been reading thru -

in counterpoint to this, re *tried + tested centuries-old methods* - 
my maternal grandsire (whom i never met - he died many years before i was born) 
bred, trained + hunted many hounds; he had bench-legged Beagles, pocket-Beagles, Harriers, and 15-inch Beagles.

he also had a dog-whip - and used it. 
in the 1920s it was standard equipment - no one turned a hair. 
if i carried a 2-ft-long whip and used it to punish a dog for trailing deer instead of bunnies, i would NOT be tolerated - 
training standards, acceptable tools, and acceptable methods do change.

there are of course, other *centuries-old* standards that are still accepted; 
others are under fire, like docking + cropping. (shrug) i prefer dogs with tail + ears unaltered, as thats what they throw. 
the conformation ring is for choosing future breeding-stock; plastic surgery on breeding-stock IMO only confuses the issue.

back to training - 
that choke-chains are still sold + used does not mean i have to use them; i think they are inefficient + unnecessary. 
i can teach a dog even-faster with a buckle-collar + 6-ft lead - who needs to jerk?

prongs, likewise, have been around for decades - and they are legal. 
but IMO why bother? there are better training methods that were Not Around when prongs were invented.

shock-collars nowadays get used + mis-used for practically everything - 
they are much more modern than chokes, prongs or dog-whips, but who needs them?

ALL of these - dog-whip, choke-chain, prong-collar, shock-collar - use **punishment* to correct behavior. 
but the behavior already happened; rather than that, i prefer pro-active methods that *teach the desired behavior. * 
it saves a lot of time + considerable confusion for the dog, to cut to the end-goal + teach what we want.

for B-Mod, DAP was only synthesized within the past 5 years? 8 years? 
somewhere in there; for fearful or highly-reactive dogs, i regard it as irreplaceable. 
it literally does things that nothing else i have ever seen, can - and it makes learning so much easier, when the dog is calmer. 
it makes no difference whether its B-Mod or basic-manners, DAP can cut the work + speed progress, for thin-skinned dogs.

of course, U ** could ** still get there without DAP - 
but IMO struggling for extra weeks just to avoid spending $25 on a bottle of pheromone is silly. :blink:

if there are things that make training less-confusing for the dog (markers: click, light, whistle, etc) 
or easier for dog AND handler (DAP, Rescue-Remedy, aromatherapy, AnxietyWrap...) 
why not use them?

i;ve done a lot of B-Mod - 
* headcollars 
* calmatives 
* clicker or other marker 
* AnxietyWrap or Ace-bandage body-wrap 
* T-touch 
* aromatherapy 
* power-pole for biters 
are all things i use, and would not want to be without.

OTOH - i can do without a dog-whip, choke-chain, prong-collar, or shock-collar very nicely indeed. 

JMO + IME - Ur mileage may vary, 
--- terry


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, rainy! :--)
> i just saw this, so have been reading thru -
> 
> in counterpoint to this, re *tried + tested centuries-old methods* -
> ...


I am not referring to trainers who use those sorts of methods :confused1: I never mentioned prong collars or choke chains or dog whips once :confused1: Why do you assume all unqualified trainers use punishment methods :confused1:

If a trainer gets good results and has done for 30 years i fail to see why they should change their method. OK maybe develop, take interest in new methods but why should they change their own if they are happy and so are their clients.

With the greatest courtesy please don't correct my posts like that Terry it really really irritates me, my sister used to correct my grammar when i was a child and it is the one surefire way to P me off. Noone has a problem understanding what i am trying to say so there is no need for alteration.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am not referring to trainers who use those sorts of methods :confused1: I never mentioned prong collars or choke chains or dog whips once :confused1: Why do you assume all unqualified trainers use punishment methods :confused1:
> 
> If a trainer gets good results and has done for 30 years i fail to see why they should change their method. OK maybe develop, take interest in new methods but why should they change their own if they are happy and so are their clients.


please explain what *centuries old* tools or techniques U referred to? 
TIA, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It should also be considered that anyone can write a course and sell it. I advise people to choose carefully when they are seeking out a course to do for that reason. Many courses are sold without accreditation from any official body. Anyone can set up an 'Association', 'Guild', 'Institute' etc, (especially to 'accredit' their own courses with!) even if all they have is a computer and a printer in the back bedroom of their house. They then appoint themselves as 'Chairman' or 'President' etc and then charge a fee for members, even with no basic qualifying rules for being a member like proof of relevant education etc. It is so easy to do. 

I personally don't have a lot of faith in the Kennel Club 'schemes'. The KC Accredited Instructor Scheme and the fact that clubs can register with the Kennel Club doesn't appear to mean much when they have no rules about the use of negative methods and aversives. So you will basically get good ones, mediocre ones and bad ones. : Rather like the Accredited Breeder Scheme too. Come to think of it, 'KC Reg' is not always a stamp of quality where registered pedigree dogs are concerned either. But..........it brings the KC some more money in and the great British public are easily impressed.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> please explain what *centuries old* tools or techniques U referred to?
> TIA,
> --- terry


Man and dog have cohabited pretty nicely for a fairly long while now without the need for "tools" or particular "techniques", seems the more tools and techniques we add the further the relationship deteriorates. Watching that guy with his sheepdogs or the guy with his gundogs is what i mean, i am not here with any specifics, as a lay person i would take advice from them anyday over someone who has done a day course and bought an affiliation.

This thread was not about discussing training *methods*, lord knows there is enough of those to keep a person busy for a lifetime on here, it was about qualifications V experience.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Man and dog have cohabited pretty nicely for a fairly long while now without the need for "tools" or particular "techniques", seems the more tools and techniques we add the further the relationship deteriorates.


well, when humans first started to plant crops + domesticate livestock, i doubt they used leashes or collars, either - but they are pretty much a given, no matter where U live, now. 
they are typically a legal requirement - so even if not used for training, a leash to satisfy municipal or county, etc, ordinance, 
is part of modern-dog life.

the Masai do not usually leash their dogs at all, nor the Congo tribes who keep Basenji - 
but we do not live in Ngorongoro or the Congo forest.  urbanization also means that dogs have to become 
more tolerant of other dogs, strangers, noise, etc, than ever before.

space is at a premium, and stimulus is anything from constant to frequent. 
we expect more of dogs than we did when my mother was a pre-teen. 
small-dogs who ran at-large was the rule, in the 1920s; over the 80 years since, off-leash space shrank, 
and dogs grew. so did our expectations of dogs.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Thankyou you make the point beautifully . Average Jo Bod looking for a trainer/behaviourist would not know all of the above and could get totally fooled by the whole "accredited by and affiliated to" nonsense that exists in lots of professions where basically you pay your membership fee and get to stick a swish looking logo on your literature
> 
> *I don't necessarily agree about the qualifications for behaviour though. I think good trainers do understand behaviour on a very very deep level from studying dogs over many years.*
> 
> ...


But the point I'm trying to make is that behaviour modification is a studied science, and should be. It's not something that can simply be learnt by looking at dogs, most aggression is fear based, and any person who's been around dog would be able to read feat from the dog's body language so it's no surprise that he knew it, if he's been watching dogs and how they behave for so long. That doesn't mean he has a clue about chemical levels in the brains, hedonic budgets, serotonin rising diets, obsessive disorders etc. etc. :001_cool:

The study of dogs, and animals over the past few hundred years has changed an awful lot.

In days gone by it was thought animals didn't feel pain, or have any emotions! :frown: BF Skinner only wrote his theories less than 100 years ago, before this what kind of stuff was going on? 

I'm afraid we have to disagree on 'The tried and tested methods that have worked for centuries' because they didn't and weren't tried and tested, it was a matter of trial and error. Dogs (and other livestock) were damaged by inapproriate training, and if you got a 'bad dog' you chucked it in the river in a sack with some bricks. Aren't you glad things have progressed? :thumbup:

(Times are changing everywhere, it's not about what the next bandwagon is, it's about what's kind of training and behaviour modification, is kind to the animial, effective at what it does, and positive in it's outcome. NO-ONE STEAL THAT HAHAHAHA IT'S MY WORDS!!! :lol: The horse world is about to change just like the dog world, is there any need for horse bits anymore??? )



rona said:


> Thank you both, unfortunately the "trainer" I know that uses shock collars etc. is not listed although he claims to be KC registered.
> I wonder what register?????
> I did try to report him to the KC, but as I can find no link to him on their site.
> They weren't interested


If you can find his literature I'd send that in to the KC, or any advertising where he's lied can be reported to the Advertising Standards Agency 



RAINYBOW said:


> Man and dog have cohabited pretty nicely for a fairly long while now without the need for "tools" or particular "techniques", seems the more tools and techniques we add the further the relationship deteriorates. Watching that guy with his sheepdogs or the guy with his gundogs is what i mean, i am not here with any specifics, as a lay person i would take advice from them anyday over someone who has done a day course and bought an affiliation.
> 
> This thread was not about discussing training *methods*, lord knows there is enough of those to keep a person busy for a lifetime on here, it was about qualifications V experience.


But methodolgy changes over time with the more we learn, the more studies that are done on dogs to assertain what they're thinking, feeling, seeing etc. So when someone says well they've been doing it 30 years with no problems, it's a bit of a bad thing to say, because it means they're no updating their skills and don't think they have anything to learn.

And we all have something to learn don't we? I don't know any good trainer or behaviourist who thinks they know all there is to know.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> well, when humans first started to plant crops + domesticate livestock, i doubt they used leashes or collars, either - but they are pretty much a given, no matter where U live, now.
> they are typically a legal requirement - so even if not used for training, a leash to satisfy municipal or county, etc, ordinance,
> is part of modern-dog life.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what point you are making here :confused1: sorry 



London Dogwalker said:


> But the point I'm trying to make is that behaviour modification is a studied science, and should be. It's not something that can simply be learnt by looking at dogs, most aggression is fear based, and any person who's been around dog would be able to read feat from the dog's body language so it's no surprise that he knew it, if he's been watching dogs and how they behave for so long. That doesn't mean he has a clue about chemical levels in the brains, hedonic budgets, serotonin rising diets, obsessive disorders etc. etc. :001_cool:
> 
> The study of dogs, and animals over the past few hundred years has changed an awful lot.
> 
> ...


I do agree with what you are saying but a good trainer is a good trainer a piece of paper doesn't change that fact, I see the point though about different forms of beviour so i will concede that a behaviourist does probably need to have done some hard study


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> The study of dogs, and animals over the past few hundred years has changed an awful lot.
> 
> In days gone by it was thought animals didn't feel pain, or have any emotions! :frown: BF Skinner only wrote his theories less than 100 years ago, before this what kind of stuff was going on?


hey, walker! :--)

yes, during the 1800s + early-1900s, the animal-welfare movement was born - 
horses were still transport + freight, and *Black Beauty* and *Beautiful Joe* were just 2 of the books that helped - 
bringing home the idea that cart-horses and mutt-dogs had physical sensation (pain + pleasure) + emotions of their own. 


London Dogwalker said:


> But methodology changes over time with the more we learn, the more studies that are done on dogs to assertain what they're thinking, feeling, seeing etc. [snip]...


*Rep! :thumbup: *



London Dogwalker said:


> And we all have something to learn don't we? I don't know any good trainer or behaviourist who thinks they know all there is to know.


which is why i am wasting $20 a month on BEN. 

cheers, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> But methodolgy changes over time with the more we learn, the more studies that are done on dogs to assertain what they're thinking, feeling, seeing etc. So when someone says well they've been doing it 30 years with no problems, it's a bit of a bad thing to say, because it means they're no updating their skills and don't think they have anything to learn.
> 
> And we all have something to learn don't we? I don't know any good trainer or behaviourist who thinks they know all there is to know.


Great post! :thumbup: 

I always used to say that there were no 'experts' in dog behaviour because there is always something else to be learned. :yesnod: I also used to moan like heck about the amount of 'Instant Experts' who were springing up and it would seem that not much has changed even now! I am no where near an expert and never will be, mainly because my energy levels have been hampered by health problems. But I will always remain interested and even since I stopped running my own classes etc, must be about 7 or 8 years ago, I have re-evaluated some of what I knew back then and moved with the times as I have seen fit!

As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially when it is never expanded upon because the owner of such knowledge believes that they know all there is to know so no need to change.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> I volunteered then worked for a while at a dog shelter once and I was appalled at the lack of knowledge of even basic dog behaviour shown by the managers let alone the staff! I persuaded them to allow me to work on several 'library' dogs (taken out one week, returned the next) and soon had those dogs adopted permanantly. One needed a change of diet onto a gentler, gluten free one. Result was that the long term house training problem was cured within days as she not longer had an irritable bowel!  Another was depressed and aggressive through grief. He had been labelled as 'nasty' - he wasn't! A quiet, calm attitude and patience encouraged a rather sad but gentle dog to emerge and once brought out of his pit of despair, the dog was rehomed with a single, older gentleman as he was more used to that sort of home. A dog who consistently refused to go in his kennel at bedtime and who became aggreessive just needed more understanding rather than being dragged in there! But they should have known all this!!! It's all very well having a qualification in kennel management etc but the dogs have mental needs too.


Good post! x


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Been thinking about how i can make my point clearer and the only thing i can think of is to revert to my own profession.

I am a professional Mother and a Childminder.

I have no formal qualifications but i have learnt my craft "on the job".

I am able to assess a childs behaviour and provide appropriate solutions to any unwanted behaviour. 

It is an area that is constantly bombarded with "new ideas" but underneath all that there is a hardcore, tried and tested way to deal with children to ensure they are happy and healthy. These basics have changed very little and are still as relevant and effective today as they were 50 years ago, as is often the case there is a real movement to return to these simpler ways.

Like with dogs children cannot be pidgeonholed and what works for one may not work for another so if someone has been taught the "latest technique" and it fails then what :confused1:

I have seen plenty of people with degrees in childcare which requires a fair amount of study be utterly useless when confronted with real life children  

Yes there have been some hideous "techniques" used over the years and noone wants to see children subjected to some of the ideas of old BUT as a society we learn and grow, doesn't mean the good stuff is useless though :thumbup:


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> I volunteered then worked for a while at a dog shelter once and I was appalled at the lack of knowledge of even basic dog behaviour shown by the managers let alone the staff! I persuaded them to allow me to work on several 'library' dogs (taken out one week, returned the next) and soon had those dogs adopted permanantly. One needed a change of diet onto a gentler, gluten free one. Result was that the long term house training problem was cured within days as she not longer had an irritable bowel!  Another was depressed and aggressive through grief. He had been labelled as 'nasty' - he wasn't! A quiet, calm attitude and patience encouraged a rather sad but gentle dog to emerge and once brought out of his pit of despair, the dog was rehomed with a single, older gentleman as he was more used to that sort of home. A dog who consistently refused to go in his kennel at bedtime and who became aggreessive just needed more understanding rather than being dragged in there! But they should have known all this!!! It's all very well having a qualification in kennel management etc but the dogs have mental needs too.


Most of the larger rescue organisations and good smaller ones, are becoming aware of the need for Managers, or at least a member of staff to have behavioural/training experience. Dogs Trust and Blue Cross, both have in house behaviourists, ready to give advice and do lots of work prior to someone having a dog.

The problem with kennel welfare staff, is that the wages are so pitiful, it attracts a younger age group who are obviously inexperienced. Most of my staff worked a long, physically tiring day, because they loved dogs. Some of them had picked up bits of knowledge on aspects of behaviour/nutrition along the way, some of it woefullly wrong, but their hearts were in it for the animals. It is all well and good saying that they should have known this, but who funds this training? If the Rescue does it, this takes not only money, but essential staff out from their job. This is why many rely on volunteers, like Tripod.

Kate


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I would rather use somebody who had experience.

I know many people with degrees and they have absolutely no common sense.

However how does experience get regulated? You need to have both.

If I were to use a behaviourist then I would speak to them first and see what experience they have


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

To give a reasonable comparison of exp vs qual, look at lab animal care.

1) There are a number of people who have worked with lab animals for years, decades even. They have no formal qualifications, but they know their job inside out and are highly skilled at what they do. 
However, many of them have very little "modern" knowledge of things like pain indicators in rodents, symptoms of chronic stress, the benefits of environmental enrichment (and the problems of tiny, barren housing). They are usually happy to maintain the status quo, to do as they have always done, because they simply do not recognise the need for things to change and evolve. 

2) At the other end of the scale are the new starters, fresh out of uni. They think they know it all, having read it in a text book somewhere, but are often unskilled when it comes to handling the animals, can't recognise the signs they know to look for, can't handle hard or dirty work, and in many cases seem to want change for the sake of it - rather than for a specific benefit.

3) In the middle are the ones with the balance about right. They know and understand various complex aspects of animal care, welfare, etc. thanks to their qualifications. Yet on top of that they have the experience to know what does and does not work in practice, they can recognise the signs that they have read about, and they can - and do - make a real difference to animal welfare.

I don't necessarily think that formal qualifications are the be all and end all - as I said before it depends on the course itself. But the people who have not bothered ot learn anything new, to even consider new ideas far less adopt them, in my experience tend to be either afraid of change, or too arrogant to admit being wrong.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

I have to say that experience is a very important part of being a great dog trainer and exploring as much information on all breed types,body language, training techniques and behaviours is what counts imho 
My experiences with dogs started from a very early age in my life then i started walkin dogs for money when i was 11yrs old to widen my scope and experience round all breeds, everything else after that just followed naturally without my experience around dogs over the yrs i would only have my qualifications which would be crap and tbh i have had so many clients come to me after dog trainers/behaviourists didnt help them one bit and the money they had to spend for no result or resolve techniques was bloody disgusting
Bout time it was goverened more so owners wernt ripped off by crap trainers!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> I have to say that experience is a very important part of being a great dog trainer and exploring as much information on all breed types,body language, training techniques and behaviours is what counts imho
> My experiences with dogs started from a very early age in my life then i started walkin dogs for money when i was 11yrs old to widen my scope and experience round all breeds, everything else after that just followed naturally without my experience around dogs over the yrs i would only have my qualifications which would be crap and tbh i have had so many clients come to me after dog trainers/behaviourists didnt help them one bit and the money they had to spend for no result or resolve techniques was bloody disgusting
> Bout time it was goverened more so owners wernt ripped off by crap trainers!!


:thumbup:

Great post


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Great post


:thumbup::thumbup: thank u :lol:


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I personally think there's little substitute for experience, providing the experienced one is willing to learn new things along the way....xx


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> :thumbup::thumbup: thank u :lol:


Stunning Dog too BTW  My ultimate soft spot


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Stunning Dog too BTW  My ultimate soft spot


Ahhh thank u very much ur soo kind he is a lovely boy tru gentle giant my boy


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> I personally think there's little substitute for experience, providing the experienced one is willing to learn new things along the way....xx


Absolutely agree with this!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> Ahhh thank u very much ur soo kind he is a lovely boy tru gentle giant my boy


A GSD is next for me. I really would like an older rescue so that i can gain some experience before taking the puppy plunge again but the OH sais NOOooooo at the moment (booo hissssss misery guts)


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> A GSD is next for me. I really would like an older rescue so that i can gain some experience before taking the puppy plunge again but the OH sais NOOooooo at the moment (booo hissssss misery guts)


Yeh there are lots out there that need good loving homes so that would be lovely ur have to start black mailing ur partner with other things to get what u want hahahaha only joking but u never know mite work


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

London Dogwalker said:


> But the point I'm trying to make is that behaviour modification is a studied science, and should be. It's not something that can simply be learnt by looking at dogs...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Brilliant post :thumbup:

As I think a lot of you guys are saying, experience is great, as long as you don't get too caught up in thinking you know it all...

...surely in ANY profession people should be broadening their knowledge and learning about all the different and new research and info out there to update their skills? And there possibly are 'fads' in dog training, like with anything else, but that doesnt mean that all new ideas are 'fads' - far from it.

Even if anm experienced trainer/professional decides that a method or tool is not for them, I think any good professional should still be reading up around it fully to truly understand the method or tool etc, otherwise they cannot provide any valid advice or argument against something.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> Yeh there are lots out there that need good loving homes so that would be lovely ur have to start black mailing ur partner with other things to get what u want hahahaha only joking but u never know mite work


How do you think i got Oscar :lol: :thumbup:


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> How do you think i got Oscar :lol: :thumbup:


Dont listen to Charlie, she will lead you astray, she is naughty:scared:
xx


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> How do you think i got Oscar :lol: :thumbup:


:lol:always works dont it lmao Oscar is a cutie


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sketch said:


> Dont listen to Charlie, she will lead you astray, she is naughty:scared:
> xx


I don't need much leading but the OH needs a sledgehammer. Charlie can you come sort Mr R out ??? :lol:



charlie n rio said:


> :lol:always works dont it lmao Oscar is a cutie


Yes he is a sweetie, a bugger, but a sweetie too


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

sketch said:


> Dont listen to Charlie, she will lead you astray, she is naughty:scared:
> xx


Meeeeeeeeee never hun i wouldnt do that dont listen to sarah shes the instigator hahahaha :thumbup:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> Meeeeeeeeee never hun i wouldnt do that dont listen to sarah shes the instigator hahahaha :thumbup:


Can you both come sort him out then :thumbup: I will sneak out the back door and go get that rescue :lol:


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I don't need much leading but the OH needs a sledgehammer. Charlie can you come sort Mr R out ??? :lol:
> 
> Yes he is a sweetie, a bugger, but a sweetie too


:lol::lol: take the toys away and ur cooking lol


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> Meeeeeeeeee never hun i wouldnt do that dont listen to sarah shes the instigator hahahaha :thumbup:


I am Not Charlie

Ok maybe a little ickle bit of an instigator
xx


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colette said:


> I don't necessarily think that formal qualifications are the be all and end all - as I said before it depends on the course itself. But the people who have not bothered ot learn anything new, to even consider new ideas far less adopt them, in my experience tend to be either afraid of change, or too arrogant to admit being wrong.


Your whole post was good to read but this quoted part just about sums it up.  Education, education, education! That's what it is all about and is how anyone who wants to, can gain *more* knowledge to add to their own experience! :thumbsup:


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Can you both come sort him out then :thumbup: I will sneak out the back door and go get that rescue :lol:


Hun, he wouldnt cope with me and charlie.

Oh Charlie we could take the boys and he would have to buy one then, he would love all 3 lol
xx


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

sketch said:


> I am Not Charlie
> 
> Ok maybe a little ickle bit of an instigator
> xx


Well we all know where are posts end up hun in the
GUTTER


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

sketch said:


> Hun, he wouldnt cope with me and charlie.
> 
> Oh Charlie we could take the boys and he would have to buy one then, he would love all 3 lol
> xx


Yeah deffo would sway him with our 3 chic how could anyone say no to our boys lol


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> Well we all know where are posts end up hun in the
> GUTTER


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

charlie n rio said:


> Well we all know where are posts end up hun in the
> GUTTER


#hahahaha yeh, they get taken out of context haha



charlie n rio said:


> Yeah deffo would sway him with our 3 chic how could anyone say no to our boys lol


Yeh, when do you want us to come and sway him hunny
xx


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sketch said:


> #hahahaha yeh, they get taken out of context haha
> 
> Yeh, when do you want us to come and sway him hunny
> xx


OOOoooo Sunday would be good, about half past 3


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## maxandskye (Jan 31, 2009)

What's happened to this thread ????? :thumbup:


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

maxandskye said:


> what's happened to this thread ????? :thumbup:


in the gutter again hun


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

maxandskye said:


> What's happened to this thread ????? :thumbup:


It's alright as the OP i am allowed to take it off topic :lol:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Oh can you bring yours round too


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Been thinking about how i can make my point clearer and the only thing i can think of is to revert to my own profession.
> 
> I am a professional Mother and a Childminder.
> 
> ...


I do understand your analogy, but I would say for behaviourists that you wouldn't call yourself a Child Psychologist without the relevent qualifications. Same thing, different species. :thumbup:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> I do understand your analogy, but I would say for behaviourists that you wouldn't call yourself a Child Psychologist without the relevent qualifications. Same thing, different species. :thumbup:


True  i am probably a lot better at getting to the issue and dealing with it than some Phsychologists though :lol:


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Anyone, whether an 'accredited' trainer/behaviourist, or just an 'experience' one, needs to evolve. There is always something to learn.

I remember when clickers first came in, my first reaction was it was just another faddy thing that would come and go. After reading about it, I got the Karen Pyor book 'dog and dolphin' and 'Don't Shoot the dog', but hadn't used a clicker.

One day at work I was trying to teach a poodle down on command and would he lie down? No, I tried all the tricks I knew. This should be easy, I had done this hundreds of times before, but I just couldn't get the moment for the behaviour.

As a last ditch effort, I went and got a clicker and started playing around with it, when he laid down after a bit of a skit, I clicked, he did it again, then again and I was absolutely gobsmacked - I still remember it now, I rushed out of the training room, into the training house to tell the others how wonderful this tiny device was. We all then started messing about with the dogs, teaching them totally useless stuff, but it was amazing at the time.

This is what being a good trainer/behaviourist is about. Keep the good things that you know work -however old they are. Sling the things that don't and embrace new ideas.

I listen to everyone I can, read everything I can - yes even the bad stuff - EVEN CM:scared: because I can learn from them all, even if it is how not to do it!!!

Kate


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

k8t said:


> Anyone, whether an 'accredited' trainer/behaviourist, or just an 'experience' one, needs to evolve. There is always something to learn.
> 
> I remember when clickers first came in, my first reaction was it was just another faddy thing that would come and go. After reading about it, I got the Karen Pyor book 'dog and dolphin' and 'Don't Shoot the dog', but hadn't used a clicker.
> 
> ...


:001_cool: :thumbup: Good point


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## maxandskye (Jan 31, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> It's alright as the OP i am allowed to take it off topic :lol:


oh good, lmao.

These two will lead everyone astray :lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

maxandskye said:


> What's happened to this thread ????? :thumbup:


Charlie and I started to comment Jenny, thats why hahaha
xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> ...surely in ANY profession people should be broadening their knowledge and learning about all the different and new research and info out there to update their skills? And there possibly are 'fads' in dog training, like with anything else, but that *doesnt mean that all new ideas are 'fads'* - far from it.


funny thing - 
way back when in 1998, i think - November i believe - 
the USA-apdt held their annual conference in Memphis, Tenn.

**Turid Rugaas* was speaking on calming-signals*, and there were at least 4 other things going on at any given moment - 
but it sounded interesting, so me + my Akita-girl trooped on over to get a good seat, with 10-mins to spare.

this was one of her first appearances in the USA, and she was struggling with the language (not her own), 
a terrible sound system with a mike that cut in + out, and grainy B + W photos of dogs on the wall above her.

within the first 10 to 15-mins, EVERY * MAN i could see in the audience got up + left... 
i was riveted, i was straining every muscle in my body not to miss a word! 
so it was frustrating when the fellas got up to leave - most were as discreet as possible, but i did hear a few mutter about how stoopid this cr*p was, and wasting their time...  within hearing distance of *turid* at the podium. :thumbdown:

she struggled gamely on, and when i came out of that room, i felt like my toes + fingers were humming like dynamos - 
like i had just been charged painlessly by live-voltage! *it was SO * EXCITING, i was Sure, Sure, Sure, 
that she was onto something incredible. *

well, i don;t know where those men are - but i know i still use calming AKA stress signals every time i look at a dog, :lol: 
she may not be tall, ruggedly handsome, have six-pack abs or ax-handle wide shoulders... 
but *turid* is a doggone good dog-trainer and an even better dog-reader. 

i;d pick her over a Dawg-Wrassler any day, or a shock-train franchisee with a few weeks study! 
can;t judge a book by its cover... 
--- terry

doggone glad i went to that 30 or 45-min workshop...


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> within the first 10 to 15-mins, EVERY * MAN i could see in the audience got up + left...
> i was riveted, i was straining every muscle in my body not to miss a word!
> so it was frustrating when the fellas got up to leave - most were as discreet as possible, but i did hear a few mutter about how stoopid this cr*p was, and wasting their time...  within hearing distance of *turid* at the podium. :thumbdown:
> 
> ...


When I went to one of *Turid Ruugas'* seminars over here in the UK, she certainly had that effect on me too. About 70 people were in attendance, mostly women but there were a few men too and I am glad to say that all were just as enthralled as I was. :thumbup: It was like having my eyes opened wide and a new programme typed into my brain! I knew some canine body language but she really taught me a lot more, despite her broken english. There were about 8 dogs for her to demonstrate with, including my late Jack Russell Cross Spaniel Kizzy who was a nervous dog around strangers due to having been hammered by her previous owners - gypies sadly. The change in that little dog when she realised that Turid was a stranger who understood her was amazing, especially as the audience had been pre-warned to turn their heads away when Kiz looked over at them. Her demeanour totally changed and when she visibly relaxed, some people in the audience also let out a sigh! I was so proud of her and used calming signals with her thereafter to help her cope with strangers. 

We can all learn new tricks, even after years of doing something.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> When I went to one of *Turid Ruugas'* seminars over here in the UK, she certainly had that effect on me too. About 70 people were in attendance, mostly women but there were a few men too and I am glad to say that all were just as enthralled as I was. :thumbup: It was like having my eyes opened wide and a new programme typed into my brain! I knew some canine body language but she really taught me a lot more, despite her broken english. There were about 8 dogs for her to demonstrate with, including my late Jack Russell Cross Spaniel Kizzy who was a nervous dog around strangers due to having been hammered by her previous owners - gypies sadly. The change in that little dog when she realised that Turid was a stranger who understood her was amazing, especially as the audience had been pre-warned to turn their heads away when Kiz looked over at them. Her demeanour totally changed and when she visibly relaxed, some people in the audience also let out a sigh! I was so proud of her and used calming signals with her thereafter to help her cope with strangers.
> 
> We can all learn new tricks, even after years of doing something.


It's always great to watch someone you admire at work :thumbup:

Does she have formal qualifications, it makes no mention of them on her site


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> There were about 8 dogs for her to demonstrate with, including my late Jack Russell Cross Spaniel Kizzy who was a nervous dog around strangers due to having been hammered by her previous owners - gypies sadly. The change in that little dog when she realised that Turid was a stranger who understood her was amazing, especially as the audience had been pre-warned to turn their heads away when Kiz looked over at them. Her demeanour totally changed and when she visibly relaxed, some people in the audience also let out a sigh! I was so proud of her and used calming signals with her thereafter to help her cope with strangers.
> 
> We can all learn new tricks, even after years of doing something.


I love stories of breakthroughs like this - almost in tears its just so special. Well done you and Kiz


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Does she have formal qualifications, it makes no mention of them on her site


Turid Rugaas - Tawzer Dog Videos

Amazon.com: turid rugaas bio

YouTube - Turid Rugaas Calming Signals DVD

don;t know.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> It's always great to watch someone you admire at work :thumbup:
> 
> Does she have formal qualifications, it makes no mention of them on her site


Here is a bit more about her. Turid Rugaas - International Dog Trainer She does have some qualifications from the looks of it. 

There is also an interview with her here - Dog Training with Turid Rugaas

Books and DVDs of hers are available on Amazon as well as from other places online.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

I didn't realise, she is also the president of the PDTE (Pet Dog Trainers of Europe)

AIMS OF THE PDTE

And its good to see they have a code of ethics and a good level of criteria for full membership: http://www.pdte.org/1677--~de~mitgliedschaft~mitgliedschaft.html


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

tripod said:


> I love stories of breakthroughs like this - almost in tears its just so special. Well done you and Kiz


Aww thank you. She sadly had to be given sleep last August I think it was which broke our hearts. She was 13. She was approximately 6 months when we got her and used to be so terrified that if we picked her up, she would wet and poop herself.  She also bit my husband four times in the first three days of fostering her but then he learned to leave her alone and let her come round in her own time.  We decided to formally adopt her to save her ending up in the wrong hands as she was so pretty and that was the trouble. People who only saw her prettyness wanted her and she was a little dog who needed an experienced hand and careful, gentle management. After that it was three months before she seemed to realise that she belonged and then she attached herself to my husband, not with her teeth but with her heart!  We loved our little Kiz despite her feistyness and that's why I took her with me when I went to watch and listen to (and learn from!) Turid. Armed with my new Calming Signals knowledge I got Kiz through her KC Good Citizen Bronze Award and she even had a go at mini agility until she marched out of the ring in disgust at being expected to jump more than once!  She never bit anyone again and we still miss her dreadfully.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Special little girl, rest easy Kiz - (((hugs))) CarolineH


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> ...People who only saw her prettyness wanted her and she was a little dog who needed an experienced hand and careful, gentle management. ...it was 3-mos before she seemed to realise that she belonged and then she attached herself to my husband, not with her teeth but with her heart!
> ...I got Kiz through her KC Good Citizen Bronze Award and she even had a go at mini agility until she marched out of the ring in disgust at being expected to jump more than once!  She never bit anyone again and we still miss her dreadfully.


cute dogs with issues, or adorable dogs who BITE - Bichon, Shih-Tzu, etc, 
or a dog who looks **just like the dog we had, when i was a kid...* are Always fraught placements or fosters.

ppl get all hung-up on the package + seem to lose all sight of the fact that this is THIS dog - 
not the fantasy, not the spun-sugar dream, not the DOG that U had when U were 8-YO... 
*this is a completely different dog, with feelings + memories and reactions of their own - 
they need all the things that dogs need, yes, but if they have *Issues* they need time, space and HELP, too. *

and it may be heartbreaking, but U are never going to have that same exact dog from childhood, 
or one just like... that last one that broke Ur heart. :nonod: which is in one way, really sad - 
and in another, really Good.  they really are unique and special, even if its same sex + same breed - its NOT same dog.

its really hard to get folks to *not* pet, cuddle, etc, a really adorable dog-With-Issues.  
they never want to BELIEVE that the dog can (and will!) bite. :scared:

she was lucky to have U - but U were so lucky to have her, too. :001_tt1: 
DoG bless Kizzy - run free, sweetheart.

--- terry


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Turid Rugaas - Tawzer Dog Videos
> 
> Amazon.com: turid rugaas bio
> 
> ...





CarolineH said:


> Here is a bit more about her. Turid Rugaas - International Dog Trainer She does have some qualifications from the looks of it.
> 
> There is also an interview with her here - Dog Training with Turid Rugaas
> 
> Books and DVDs of hers are available on Amazon as well as from other places online.


Doesn't look like she has all the latest bells and whistles though  Kind of makes my point. Good on her i say :thumbup:


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

An excellent thread, with some terrific comments  thank you, everyone!

Speaking personally, Id want to see both qualifications and experience  for all the reasons already mentioned. But something which Id like to know is how to select a suitably qualified trainer / behaviourist. For those of us looking for someone who has the right qualifications in these areas, its easy to get confused by all the organisations to which a person might be affiliated. Its even more bewildering when we then discover that some of those professional bodies appear to have more kudos than others.

Is it possible to draw up a list of desirable qualifications, in order of preference, for both trainers & behaviourists?


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Doesn't look like she has all the latest bells and whistles though  Kind of makes my point. Good on her i say :thumbup:


Yeah there are no specific qualifications mentioned are there - I had a read through and couldnt see anything? I think in this instance it is slightly different though, as she is LEADING the research on which teaching is based...and if you read deeper, she continually studies dogs through her projects which cover thousands of dogs (more than any one trainer could ever work with through the course of their usual work), and she also appears to do different courses etc to update her learning.

Your usual dog trainer or behaviourist does not do studies or research of this kind...so in lieu of this they need to do their own study/reading up/attending courses to further their learning.

As I said before though, I do think that there are great people out there that have no formal qualifications but have studied and read up about all sorts of canine research off their own back...however, finding those people is hard...and for a new pet owner it would be even more so - and I think this is where a formal benchmark needs to be applied.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Inkdog said:


> ...But something which Id like to know is how to select a suitably qualified trainer / behaviourist. For those of us looking for someone who has the right qualifications in these areas, its easy to get confused by all the organisations to which a person might be affiliated. Its even more bewildering when we then discover that some of those professional bodies appear to have more kudos than others.
> 
> Is it possible to draw up a list of desirable qualifications, in order of preference, for both trainers & behaviourists?


Very good point...!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> An excellent thread, with some terrific comments  thank you, everyone!
> 
> Speaking personally, Id want to see both qualifications and experience  for all the reasons already mentioned. But something which Id like to know is how to select a suitably qualified trainer / behaviourist. For those of us looking for someone who has the right qualifications in these areas, its easy to get confused by all the organisations to which a person might be affiliated. Its even more bewildering when we then discover that some of those professional bodies appear to have more kudos than others.
> 
> Is it possible to draw up a list of desirable qualifications, in order of preference, for both trainers & behaviourists?


I totally agree  I am sure that a sticky could be arranged where those amongst us with the knowledge could post the things to look out for in a good trainer and behaviourist with regards affiliations and qualifictaions 

I will do a thread and ask 



katiefranke said:


> Yeah there are no specific qualifications mentioned are there - I had a read through and couldnt see anything? I think in this instance it is slightly different though, as she is LEADING the research on which teaching is based...and if you read deeper, she continually studies dogs through her projects which cover thousands of dogs (more than any one trainer could ever work with through the course of their usual work), and she also appears to do different courses etc to update her learning.
> 
> Your usual dog trainer or behaviourist does not do studies or research of this kind...so in lieu of this they need to do their own study/reading up/attending courses to further their learning.
> 
> As I said before though, I do think that there are great people out there that have no formal qualifications but have studied and read up about all sorts of canine research off their own back...however, finding those people is hard...and for a new pet owner it would be even more so - and I think this is where a formal benchmark needs to be applied.


I think it is vital to have people like this in the industry but if everyone has to have a certain "qualification" i fear some of this great talent could be stifled. Not everyone is academically minded


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I think it is vital to have people like this in the industry but if everyone has to have a certain "qualification" i fear some of this great talent could be stifled. Not everyone is academically minded


yep true - I guess in the case of trainers this is more so...I would like to think a behaviourist IS academically-minded though...if that makes sense?

Will go have a look at your other thread


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> yep true - I guess in the case of trainers this is more so...I would like to think a behaviourist IS academically-minded though...if that makes sense?
> 
> Will go have a look at your other thread


Having followed the thread i have to agree 

Thankyou


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