# Red swollen lips etc. Need advice.



## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

Can anyone help me? I dont even know if I'm in the right place and I have searched all over the internet to get some answers with no luck. All of a sudden my goldfish has come out with red swollen lips, cotton like White stuff on his eyes and is swimming using what seems to be only one side, he seems bloated and is mostly staying near the bottom of the tank, also has not ate for 2 days. I'm extremely worried, hes approx. 15 years old, I have had him for the past 5 years and he has never been near other fish so no way hes caught something from another fish.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi, what size tank is he in? Any changes to anything in the tank?
Can you test the water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and post the results?


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

What brand/type of testing equipment do you use? I've never tested his water before (I know, it's very bad) but I've never had any problems with him until now. The problem started yesterday and I'm willing do anything to make him better.. I just dont know where to start. Any advice would be very appreciated


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

The tank is 50L I think and I cleaned his tank as usual, absolutely no changes except I took out some of his live plants because they needed to be replaced. I have not replaced them yet though.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

And I have just noticed a lump on his side which is also red.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)




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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Kamara said:


> What brand/type of testing equipment do you use? I've never tested his water before (I know, it's very bad) but I've never had any problems with him until now. The problem started yesterday and I'm willing do anything to make him better.. I just dont know where to start. Any advice would be very appreciated


I'd recommend the API Freshwater Master kit. It consists of liquid tests, which are far more accurate than the paper strips. Any time you notice problems, a water test is your first port of call to diagnose the issue 


Kamara said:


> The tank is 50L I think and I cleaned his tank as usual, absolutely no changes except I took out some of his live plants because they needed to be replaced. I have not replaced them yet though.


When you cleaned the tank, did you use a dechlorinator? And did you clean or replace anything in the filter, and if so, how did you clean it?


Kamara said:


> And I have just noticed a lump on his side which is also red.


I know goldfish can be prone to tumours, but I don't have any experience of that, not being a goldfish keeper myself. @magpie @kittih @Fishnewbie @bunnygeek @Picklelily Can anyone else advise at all?


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

I didnt use anything in his water unfortunately but I'm literally ordering everything now, and nope I didnt do anything more than what I usually do and I just use water to clean everything, no chemicals or anything. Thank you so much for your help


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Kamara said:


> I didnt use anything in his water unfortunately but I'm literally ordering everything now, and nope I didnt do anything more than what I usually do and I just use water to clean everything, no chemicals or anything. Thank you so much for your help


If you didn't use a dechlorinator, the chlorine will not only irritate your fish but will have killed off all the beneficial bacteria in the filter, causing an ammonia spike. Do you use a dechlorinator normally or have you never used one?

Get yourself a product called Seachem Prime. It's a highly concentrated dechlorinator (which makes it very cost efficient, despite the initial high purchase price), but its added benefit is that it detoxifies harmful ammonia and its almost-as-harmful byproduct, nitrite. Also get a dosing syringe (1ml or 2ml). Every day, change 50% of the water and dose the new water with enough Prime to treat the whole water volume in the tank. In fact, I'd double dose for a little while until water tests show that ammonia and nitrite are no longer present.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

I have just ordered everything you ha e told me to use and it's coming tomorrow so I'll start doing that immediately, thank you so much and I've never used one but will start to now! Thank you so much for your help, hopefully this will make him feel better. I'll let you know results as soon as


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

No problem  Hope the little guy pulls through.

Be sure not to wash anything in the filter with untreated water - in fact I'd leave the filter alone completely for a few weeks to let the good bacteria grow undisturbed.

There's also a product called Melafix which may help a little with the redness and swelling.

If you're in a position to consider upgrading your tank to 100L or so, this would also help because the toxins would be less concentrated. As goldfish can grow large and are high waste producers, around 100L is generally considered the minimum for a single goldfish.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

I've been looking around for a bigger tank for him, he used to be in a 30L when I got him and he was way to big for it, hopefully I come across a bigger tank soon. I'll let you know what the results of his water tests are tomorrow, thank you so much!


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)




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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

Someone has mentioned to get him an antibiotic for his lips as it could be duck lip infection? Would it hurt to get him some just encase and what type would be best to use as I'm really unsure?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I've never heard of duck lip - unless it's another name for mouth rot? Either way, as far as I know, there aren't any antibiotics for goldfish that can be bought in the UK without prescription. Fish-savvy vets are like gold dust, but if you do happen to find one, you could give that a try, though I'd be concerned that the stress of the journey might be too much for your little guy 

Melafix, which I mentioned before, is an antiseptic, so it might help and it certainly won't do any harm (unlike many other medicines, Melafix doesn't harm the growing filter bacteria at all). But the very best thing you can do for him is to keep the water quality pristine, as this gives him the chance to heal naturally. He's clearly a tough little guy if he spent the first 10 years of his life (before you had him) in a 30L tank and has still made it to 15 years old.

Is he still not eating at all? Something you can try to stimulate the appetite is to crush a clove of garlic and add a little of this, with its juices, to the tank. (Be sure to remove any uneaten portion after around 12 hours, so as not to further pollute the water.) Garlic also has antibacterial properties and can aid healing.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

@NaomiM has offered excellent advice. Fish heal very quickly once they are in water without any toxins.

Do you have any water test readings yet? I suspect that you have ammonia and or nitrite in your water. The red lips and red mark on your fish's flank are likely caused by the effects of ammonia. Normally I would advise large 30-50% daily water changes to dilute the toxins until you got the seachem prime but if you dont have any water conditioner at all to neutralise the chloramine then this would be as harmful as the ammonia in the water.

Getting water conditioner is your first priority. I hope you manage to get some very soon.

Re the lump, goldfish do get tumours. One of mine had it and eventually died. They can also look a big mishapen if they have kidney issues or an infection which may be exacerbated by poor water quality. So it may the that the lump disappears once you have your water sorted out.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks @kittih - I was hoping someone with more goldfish experience than me would see this! 

I believe the OP has ordered a test kit and Seachem Prime, so should hopefully have them very soon. 


Kamara said:


> I have just ordered everything you ha e told me to use and it's coming tomorrow so I'll start doing that immediately, thank you so much and I've never used one but will start to now! Thank you so much for your help, hopefully this will make him feel better. I'll let you know results as soon as


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

Hi, yes I have water test levels. His ph levels are 7.5, nitrate levels are 0, kg levels are 80. Gh levels are 180.. the conditioner has just been delivered and I bought a melafix to put in with him, but only if you recommend? Thank you so much.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

Seachem prime has not been delivered yet.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

And I've been doing 50% water changes daily.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

Sorry @NaomiM, I've just read through the posts and saw yours about the garlic and melafix, I have used the recommended dosage just now so hopefully this helps! Thank you, he still has not eating which is making me very anxious. I have done my shopping order online and added fresh garlic, this arrive arrive tomorrow morning and I will give it a try. I tried an online vet which came to a dead end, and i also did some research on my tank and it's actually a 65L tank so just that tad bigger then a first thought! Thank you so much for your help you have been amazing! And thank you @kittih for the advice about lump, I will keep an eye on it and post any changes.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Hi thanks for the update. What are your ammonia and nitrite test results ? I am worried that your filter isnt working properly at all or there is soemthing strange going on with your test results. It isnt normal to have zero reading for nitrate. Your tap water will naturally have some nitrate in it and if your filter is working properly the ammonia will be converted to nitrite and the nitrite will need converted to nitrate by the filter bacteria.

If you now have water condition do daily large 30-50% water changes. Make sure the water temperatures match. Also dose with melafix. Make sure you shake the bottle well. Hopefully that will start helpingvyour fish recover.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Agree with kittih - the API nitrate test bottles need to be shaken very thoroughly before use (banging them on the table several times usually does the trick!) However, the ammonia and nitrite readings are the crucial ones at this stage. @Kamara Please test for these and post the results!


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

Hi, so I have tested his ammonia levels and his nitrate levels with a different testing kit and his the results are 0.25 for ammonia and nitrate is 5.0, I have ordered a replacement filter also. He is looking much much the past few days and has eaten more each day!! His lips still look red but the stuff on his eyes seem to be clearing! He is swimming around the tank more also! Thank you so much for you help! I'm not sure how to go about changing his filter though so should I wait until we have finished his melafix course (7 days as recommended) and then change his water 25% (as instructed by melafix). Add fresh clean water and add a conditioner while adding new filter? I want to do everything correctly.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

I also took put everything is his tank except his gravel, just to give him more space to get better and such.. I'm wanting to put it all back in but not sure when to, I also have some moss balls and live plants to go in with him, are these okay for him to have while getting better?


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)




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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Kamara said:


> Hi, so I have tested his ammonia levels and his nitrate levels with a different testing kit and his the results are 0.25 for ammonia and nitrate is 5.0


Just wanted to check this - do you mean nitrate (with an A) or nitrite (with an I)? Nitrate of 5.0 is absolutely fine, but nitrite of 5.0 is a different story.

Either way, I'd ignore the melafix instructions about waiting 7 days, as the water quality is more important at the moment. Keep up with daily 50% changes - you can always add an extra half dose of melafix after each one.

Do you have the Prime yet? If not, are you using any water conditioner at all?


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

I have been using a tap water conditioner while waiting, and I meant nitrate. I have not tested for nitrite levels as I didnt know they were different tests, I will do a 50% water change now and do I use the conditioner after every water change, I'm I okay to change his filter now while doing this?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

No, I'd leave the filter. Do a nitrite test as it is likely you have nitrite in your tank, given the ammonia levels, and you need to know the figures as nitrite is very harmful. Yes, add the conditioner to the new water before you add it to the tank every time.

I also realised I never answered your question about the plants. Yes, as long as they're healthy with no rotting leaves, they can actually help to improve the water quality, so by all means add them 

Glad he's doing better and is now eating - that's great news!


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

The 0.25 ammonia will be the cause of all the sores and your fish's general poor health. As Naomi says there is most likely also a high nitrite level present too. Doing large daily water changes is the best way to keep these toxins as low as possible.

I am not sure what you mean by changing your filter. Do you have a disposable type filter or are you looking to upgrade ? Either way I wouldnt recommend removing the filter. If you are looking to upgrade just add the new filter to the tank as well as keeping the old one. The old filter even though there are insufficient bacteria to remove all ammonia will have some bacterial population as evidenced by the nitrate test result.

I dont know whether you can get hold of it but zeolite or ammonia removal.granules (same thing) can also be a good way of getting rid of ammmonia. It can either be placed in a filter compartment if there is room or if not put into the toe of a clean (but not washed with soap) pair of nylon stockings/tights and hung in front of the filter outflow. As Naomi says if your plants are healthy they will also help to remove ammonia and nitrite.

Now your fish is eating please feed very sparingly. Any food fed will he converted to ammonia waste and faeces.

I am glad you fish seems happier. You have a lot of work ahead to get the filter able to reliably cope with your fish's waste but this first step sounds promising.

If you do want to get an additional filter then a large external filter is a good idea. It can hold a large amount of media to support bacteria and also significantly increases overall water volume. External filters are often not too expensive second hand.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

kittih said:


> I am not sure what you mean by changing your filter. Do you have a disposable type filter or are you looking to upgrade ?


 I read it as change the filter media, but I may well be wrong! OP yes as kittih says, if you meant adding a new filter, that could definitely help the situation, but keep the old one in place too, at least until ammonia and nitrite are at 0.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

NaomiM said:


> I read it as change the filter media, but I may well be wrong! OP yes as kittih says, if you meant adding a new filter, that could definitely help the situation, but keep the old one in place too, at least until ammonia and nitrite are at 0.


Good point. I may have misunderstood. Eitherway, unless the media to be changed is filterfloss or exhausted carbon or zeolite granules then a gentle rinse and replace of media is all thats needed.

Every surface in your tank including tje filter will hold beneficial bacteria. The fewer you remove at this stage the better.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

So is water changes enough to lessen the ammonia in his tank or should I buy something additional to help with this? And okay I will add his plants tonight during his water change. Thank you everyone. Also I'm waiting on a nitrite test to arrive so will test everything again soon and post results.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

It was the filter media I wanted to change as I didnt think his filter was working to it's best as it is old.. hasnt been changed for a while, so I bought replacement sponges and what not for it.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Any amount of ammonia is toxic. Water changes will reduce but not completely eliminate it, so Prime or another ammonia detoxification product is recommended to make the water as safe as possible. As above, I wouldn't replace any filter sponges at present as they're where the good bacteria grows. Once the tank is fully cycled and you are no longer reading any traces of ammonia or nitrite, you could clean the sponges by swishing gently in a bucket of old tankwater (never use untreated tapwater), but most types of filter media never need to be replaced with new ones. May I ask what filter it is and what type of media you were planning on replacing?


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

You eventual goal is to grow enough bacteria on your filter media to deal with all the ammonia and nitrite being produced by your fish. This can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks in a fishless cycle where there are no fish in the tank and an optimum level of ammonia can be added to rapidly grow the bacterial population. With fish in the tank it is a delicate balance between keeping the ammonia level as low as possible for the saftey of the fish and yet have enough as food to grow the bacteria. The seachem prime is useful because it detoxifies the ammonia but still keeps it in a form that the bacteria can use as food. So its ideal for a fish in tank cycle. Either way it may take a month or two to grow enough bacteria to support your fish so once you have the seachem prome I would suggest doing a 25% daily water change for a week then if everything seems to be going well reduce that to every two days.

Until you get the seachem prime you will need to do large water changes to keep the ammonia as low as possible for your fishes safety. Even a tiny amount impacts breathing and irritates and damages skin and internal organs, possibly permanenly.


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## Kamara (Sep 24, 2017)

So the nitrite testing kit came and I have tested ammonia again, his level for nitrite are 0 and ammonia is 0.25, seachem finally came today so will do a water change in the morning as I have already done one today, the filter I am using atm is a biorb filter.. I just placed it in his tank when I changed from his 30l bowl to a tank, I have bought a completely new filter aswell as the media for the biorb as like i said i wasnt sure what he needed it if it was safe to place a new filter in while he was in the mend.. he is eating really well and still continuing melafix.. his lips looks so much better as does the lump on his side, swimming around the tank as if he was a new fish, his eyes are still cloudy with the cotton like stuff however still seems to be reducing I dont like the fact it's still there.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Glad he's doing so much better 

It sounds like you're at a very early stage of the cycle. You're managing to keep the ammonia under control by the water changes, which is great. As the cycle progresses the ammonia will start to be converted into nitrite at a rate of around 1:4, so 0.25ppm ammonia becomes 1ppm nitrite. This is a sign of progress, but as nitrite is still very dangerous, it's important you keep an eye on it through regular tests. I hope you manage to get the Prime soon as it will be a big help; @kittih made an excellent point that you can and should reduce the water changes once you have the Prime as this will allow the filter bacteria to develop more effectively.


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## whatnots2015 (Feb 15, 2020)

Hello, it's been a few weeks since this thread started, I hope that your fish is feeling much better now


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