# Comic relief race row



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Interesting debate on This Morning earlier in the week surrounding the comments being made about Stacey Dooley posting a photograph of herself holding a black child to her social media whilst filming for Comic Relief






"Strictly's Stacey Dooley has been hit with criticism from Labour MP David Lammy as he accused her of encouraging a "white saviour" complex over her Comic Relief trip to Africa. We're joined by Dr Ranj and Vanessa Feltz to weigh in on the subject and also speak to David Lammy who reveals he refuses to work with Comic Relief."

Is this the beginning of the end for comic/sport relief? Will it change whether you donate or not?

Stacey Dooley has challenged MP David Lammy after he said "the world does not need any more white saviours" following her Comic Relief posts from Africa.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Been following this . Sky news had Trisha chat host agreeing with him , Its been said that Lammy was asked to do it at one time but refused but its not been confirmed if this is true.

I tweeted Lammy and asked If I make a donation does that make me a white saviour ? Didn't get a reply ! 

Its a shame because everyone comes together to help these children and this type of comment causes divides.

No it wont change anything for me . I usually make a small donation from my mobile.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Been following this . Sky news had Trisha chat host agreeing with him , Its been said that Lammy was asked to do it at one time but refused but its not been confirmed if this is true.
> 
> I tweeted Lammy and asked If I make a donation does that make me a white saviour ? Didn't get a reply !
> 
> Its a shame because everyone comes together to help these children and this type of comment causes divides.


He talks about why he hasn't taken part in the This Morning video. I can kind of see his point about how things have moved on such as the renaming of certain charities so that their names don't cause offence but I wonder if this will deter celebs and sports stars from taking part in future. Instead of moaning perhaps Mr Lammy and Trisha could come up with an alternative idea and put the work in that Lenny Henry has over the years although I'm not clear if they are saying the money isn't needed anymore so stop raising it and giving.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

This article covers a bit more.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hoes-Trisha-Goddard-blasts-Stacey-Dooley.html


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Trisha making her point on GMB


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Well, if black Africans over here are going to to be that picky they don't want my money so they can get stuffed, I'm giving not give anymore, I'll keep my money for charities here.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I don’t see how it makes any difference what colour the celebs are so long as they are raising awareness and encouraging donations from the UK.

Without the celebs’ films we wouldn’t be so informed of the issues/needs.

The argument that CR should use African celebs is daft as we wouldn’t know who they were! Well known faces encourage interest and donations.

I do agree, however, that no child’s face should be plastered over social media, but that’s easily solved with positioning the child to look away from the camera.

I took the “obsessed” quote just to mean that Stacey had been blown away by the country/people (maybe that child in particular) and everything that is happening for the good out there tbh.

There was an argument made that CR only show the negative side of Africa and not all the great, progressive things going on.

However, CR’s remit is to raise awareness of the issues affecting the citizens such as poverty, starvation, sickness etc. in order to raise money as well as showing the donor how their money is making a positive difference.

It isn’t there for any other reason.

It’s only involved because Africa isn’t solving these issues on their own 

If African’s don’t want white saviours being involved and taking the credit and “self rewarding PR” then maybe it’s time to leave them to it? They’ve managed so well without help in the past.....

I don’t donate to CR as it happens but concentrate on UK based charities.

I do, however, help a couple of animal charities in DomRep where I actually have seen where my money goes. I don’t think the animals see colour though


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Shouldn't people like Lammy and other offended celebrities and/or politicians ask the actual people affected if they were offended and view it as white saviour/colonialism and that kind of rubbish? Or are the Africans involved and whose charities benefit, too stupid and uneducated to decide for themselves and need people like Trisha and Lammy to be offended on their behalf and speak for them?

I suppose this is ok though. Meghan Markel's mother is African American, so her hugging poverty stricken children in Rwanda is different. 










I donate to Prince Fluffy Kareem which is an equine charity in Egypt. The horses and donkeys don't care what colour I or the wonderful people who work there are either.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

There's always an excuse to be offended nowadays it seems. 

I haven't donated to children in need or comic relief since I was a kid at school. I'd rather choose my charity and know exactly who my money is going to.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I agree on the white saviour/voluntourism thing, it does more harm than good. 
Stacey Dooley is a bit of an irl Philomena Cunk imo but I don't think it's fair the kicking she's getting when she's doing something she was presumably asked to do for charity, the same thing countless slebs have done before. Maybe take it up with Comic Relief itself?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

picaresque said:


> I agree on the white saviour/voluntourism thing, it does more harm than good.
> Stacey Dooley is a bit of an irl Philomena Cunk imo but I don't think it's fair the kicking she's getting when she's doing something she was presumably asked to do for charity, the same thing countless slebs have done before. Maybe take it up with Comic Relief itself?


irl Philomena Cunk

Please excuse me being thick but what does that mean? :Shamefullyembarrased


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I haven't read much about it but i did feel very uneasy about the pics posted by Stacey Dooley. However I also have a massive problem with multi millionaires preaching about charity to us mere mortals whilst gaining vast amounts of air time for self promotion.... I'm a cynical old bitch!!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I haven't read much about it but i did feel very uneasy about the pics posted by Stacey Dooley. However I also have a massive problem with multi millionaires preaching about charity to us mere mortals whilst gaining vast amounts of air time for self promotion.... I'm a cynical old bitch!!


 I felt uneasy about the photo because the child she was holding looked scared but only for that reason.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> irl Philomena Cunk
> 
> Please excuse me being thick but what does that mean? :Shamefullyembarrased


https://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-05-09/bbc2-to-make-more-episodes-of-philomena-cunk/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> https://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-05-09/bbc2-to-make-more-episodes-of-philomena-cunk/


I still haven't got a clue but thank you for the link anyway


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Since it’s inception CR has raised £1billion, through Red Nose Day and Sport Relief to help people living incredibly tough lives.

People who aren’t being taken care of by their own governments/communities.

One of the two founders is black the other is white.

As I understand it, every penny of a donation goes to the good causes and the interest of monies held (as payments to projects are made in tranches) pay the running cost of the charity.

Throughout the years celebrities have raised awareness of the issues and causes needing funding.

Not sure how anyone can complain tbh


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

To be honest it's not a new 'argument' although it's the first time that colour has been brought into it which gives it all a new slant. I remembered that the Band Aid song 'Do they know it's Christmas' (which I am not actually a big fan of) has come under pressure before for being patronising.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...g-bob-geldof-ebola-do-they-know-its-christmas

Quote from the article above
_So why does Band Aid 30 feel so patronising and uncomfortable?
There exists a paternalistic way of thinking about Africa, likely exacerbated by the original (and the second, and the third) Band Aid singles, in which it must be "saved", and usually from itself. We say "Africa" in a way that we would never say "Europe", or "Asia". <<>>The popular narrative always places those of us in the west in the position of benevolent elders, helping out poor Africans, mouths always needy and yawning, on their constantly blighted continent,
_
Personally I don't think it should be about the colour of the person involved - and in a way i am sorry that Stacey Dooley has come under fire as she actually has done a number of good documentaries. However, I do think that the whole approach should be looked at as the world has moved on quite a bit in 30 years ....but Comic Relief seems to be still stuck in 1985.

J


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

RND raised £38,195,278 last year so pretty successful and the current methods obviously work to raise money and help people - the whole point of it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

A little bit of racism going on there but because it comes from a person of colour, it's allowed 

What a stupid occasion to use this objection, when it's raising millions for the most needy. That's self promotion if ever there was

It was always ok for Lenny to go I suppose


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I haven't read much about it *but i did feel very uneasy about the pics posted by Stacey Dooley.* However I also have a massive problem with multi millionaires preaching about charity to us mere mortals whilst gaining vast amounts of air time for self promotion.... I'm a cynical old bitch!!


For G*ds sake did any worry when Princess Diana held coloured or should I say black children who had aids, leprosy or injured by mines, isn't it the same, white woman trying to help Africa.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> For G*ds sake did any worry when Princess Diana held coloured or should I say black children who had aids, leprosy or injured by mines, isn't it the same, white woman trying to help Africa.


Again a very convenient media opportunity for self promotion IMO 

There is often a lot more to a subject than just it's face value at times. Sometimes people are reading too much in to things, sometimes we need to re-evaluate, sometime we need to re-educate, sometimes we just don't agree ….


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sounds to me like a case of SJWs finding an excuse to be offended TBH.
Anybody with half a brain would realiese that if you want to raise a decent amount of money for charity then you have to do some marketing and appeal to the people you are trying to get cash out of. Sending attractive celebrities to make films that champion that cause is a good way of connecting with your target audience.
Not that I dont agree with some points people have made. I hope they do include local celebrities and have plenty of input from locals who are making a difference. It would be great to show the positive side of this kind of fund raising too.

I dont get how skin colour matters either TBH. I mean surely a privelaged white person from london isnt any different then a privelaged black person from london when it comes to understanding socio-economic issues in africa!?


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

I agreed with both guests on the show and David Lammy. Why can't CR use African journalists and film-makers more and highlight the great work that is _already going on?_ Or show the good projects that are already going on that just need more support? These films should be presented by the _very people who are running these projects_ _in Africa_? CR and their poverty porn videos do perpetuate African black stereo-typing. Africa is always portrayed as a place in need, instead of a continent that is developing. The fact that for centuries, we completly decimated the place in the first place!

Despite this, I did and do support CR, it does great work. But it could do better with it's PR for Africa and the people itself. I do like David Lammy, and he raises some great points, but I do think it was a bit mean-spirited to attack Stacey personally. It's not fair to focus on her. She did go to Uganda with good intent. The photos are a little uncomfortable, but the intention to do good was there.
Personally, I don't need a celebrity (I don't know who 90% of them are, anyway, I don't know who this Stacey is) to do this work. I'd rather have good journalism. The priviledged British white celebs who go out there do make me cringe, even though their intention is good.
Yes, it is a little different when it's Lenny Henry who goes, yes it is because he's black. No, it's not racist.

To elobrate on the guest who said about going into Brixton. No, you wouldn't send a white, middle-class person in a suite to Brixton to "solve" things. They have no idea of the challenges faced by the local people every day. You would send people who already understand and knew the issues Brixton faces.

Overall, CR should continue as it does great work, the people of Britain are so generous to take their time and raise money. It's wonderful coming together to help others in need. 
BUT, instead of poverty porn, and priviledged celebs swooping in to save the day, it needs to rethink it's attitude to the journalism and PR. Yes, we do need celebs and their social media followers, but the journalism needs to be more sensitive.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Great post @Jackie C , pretty much how I feel as well.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe if we are shown all the great things Africa are managing on their own we will deem that they don’t need our help anymore?

Hardly a positive change.

As for the argument that “we” owe them because of colonialism etc., I am not responsible for the past.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

It’s the message it sends that they are ‘victims’ that need saving rather than ‘equals’that he disagrees with. I think his use of ‘white’ was unfortunate and he should have used ‘western’ instead.

I spent 15 months working in Zambia and part of it is based around delivering education and upskilling people so they can then teach others rather than just doing it for them. The hospital covers a population of 100,000 people with the nearest town 30 miles away but(for example) they have trained over 2000 nurses who can then work elsewhere. According to statistics you’d still be more likely to die 28 years earlier and 15 times more likely to die in infancy than we will.

Even though the mission is a ‘success’ in its aims it didn’t stop a little girl dying from malaria (something that you don’t even need to die from) after her dad walked miles to the hospital carrying her. That’s why the funding still should continue as I doubt the uneven distribution of wealth and the crippling debt to the West these countries experience will ever change.

The images from overseas should focus on projects run by the locals to show that they have the ability to solve their own problems with support. Hopefully his comments won’t impact on donations but more consideration will be given to how the media campaign is presented.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Jobeth said:


> Hopefully his comments won't impact on donations but more consideration will be given to how the media campaign is presented.


Thats the worry about this kind of media s**tstorm. How many people now wont donate because they feel like their money isnt wanted because they are white??
They really do need to walk a pretty impossible tightrope between asking for money/aid and showing the positive sides of the country too.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> irl Philomena Cunk
> 
> Please excuse me being thick but what does that mean? :Shamefullyembarrased


Sorry @rottiepointerhouse I was shattered last night, meant to respond sooner. Just meant that Stacey's documentaries are apparently serious but she comes across kind of spoofy and dim, reminds me of Philomena Cunk.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I bet the children who benefit from it wouldnt give a damn who does the promotion .

I wonder he didn't say anything about sponsoring children in Africa , rich patronising white colonials 
handing out wonga to poor black children , ?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I’ve had a tiny bit to do with worldwide awareness when I’ve worked in the charity sector specifically in education in Africa. Getting endorsement from a celebrity is a good way to get awareness and education of course. Stacey Dooley is in some ways the perfect steal for Comic Reliefs PR team. Winner of SCD and down with the kids more than maybe other celebrities are who have been part of the event for longer. I feel that Lammy has a reasonable point to make though it doesn’t feel like he delivered it well.

But the bit that feels missing to me with Comic Relief in this case is role models and collaboration. There are some amazing people doing great work who aren’t seen but that is true of any country or charity regardless of race. And Comic Relief is for many countries. But in the work I’ve been a small part of we’ve always considered appropriateness of the person and personal connections because - in the examples I know in my past work - those kids in schools trying to learn do understand and need relevant role models, they have very few. I can’t stress how important that is. I don’t see that applying to many celebrities involved in Comic Relief but they do need to have high profile ones to get the £ in on the night. Which kind of makes me wonder more about pop culture and how screwed up it is to earn more in front of a camera than working in charity.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

He made it about racism, he called Stacey Dooley a ‘white saviour’. She’s a journalist.

Comic relief will have to pay Africans to make the films for them then. Would anyone actually care? I never watch it anyway, never have. I donate to what I want to. I hate watching celebs fawning over children, or famine/poverty stricken areas, or films of grateful kids at school. It not what I pay to see in my sitting room. I hate the whiny sob stories on things like x-factor too. Bah humbug.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I read that Lenny Henry is not objecting. Are we to assume then that no black people ever go over to help?; and if they did would white MP's complain about ''black saviours''?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Again a very convenient media opportunity for self promotion IMO


True but she made a tremendous impact . She was one of the most famous person in the world . Who else could have made such an impact at the time .

Makes me wonder about Madonna and Angelina Jolie adopting.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> I wonder he didn't say anything about sponsoring children in Africa , rich patronising white colonials
> handing out wonga to poor black children , ?


Yep, next we know they'll be reimbursing the Overseas Aid!!


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

What I don't understand or agree with is the need to bring skin colour into it.

If the problem is that the ongoing developmental achievements of the country are being hidden by the reports & stories of poverty that attract the aid, then address that issue. Lammy appears to be saying that because the people in poverty are 'black' and the celebrity in the picture is 'white' then this perpetuates the impression in both giver and receiver of the 'white saviour', and thereby perpetuates racist attitudes. 

That accusation seems to me to apply just as much to those 'white' people donating money as it does to the celebrity in the picture, and it disturbs me.

I sponsor half a dozen kids around the world and have done so for about 25 years (the kids change as they grow up!). Most have been in Africa but I've also had some in Bolivia and Myanmar, Indonesia and even, in one case, Europe. Am I to be seen as borderline racist for helping the darker African kids but suffer no such suggestion for the much paler others? Should I stipulate that the children I sponsor must have skin no darker than a particular hue chosen from a Dulux colour chart?

I happen to have been lucky to have been born in a prosperous country and feel it my human duty to help (albeit a tiny number of) those who have been far less lucky. What's wrong with that?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Calvine said:


> I read that Lenny Henry is not objecting. Are we to assume then that no black people ever go over to help?; and if they did would white MP's complain about ''black saviours''?


well no...Lenny Henry is 'allowed' to go over there and make films for charity because he is black, so thats fine!

(see how daft that sounds!!?)


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

What a load of codswallop. Hundreds of white media people have been photographed with black kids to promote charities.
That is PC gone mad.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

So we need now charity apartheid?
Blacks collect for blacks, white for white, brown for brown etc... should come with Dulux colour chart indeed.
A hungry kid is a hungry kid, no matter what.

Another attack of PC cavalry...


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I vaguely remember seeing Stacey Dooley on BBC3 years ago, a programme about cheap clothes and sweatshops...she seemed genuinely horrified and upset by it all.

The world is so stupid at the moment, can imagine segregation coming back one day with a PC twist


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Gemmaa said:


> The world is so stupid at the moment,


Totally agree @Gemmaa: it seems that anything and everything which is said or done (often with the best intentions) is scrutinised, dissected and put under a microscope until something is found which can possibly be deemed offensive. I think social media makes it worse - people who would never normally read a paper are all tweeting and twittering and spreading the word the minute they find something that they can whinge and get upset about.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

It's just pathetic the complaining really. I mean think of the amount of money that has been raised by said charity, the MP was an idiot to mention it as he is being shown up as a juvenile idiot obsessed with point scoring.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

@AlexPed2393: This actually brings to mind the Oxford University student who was campaigning to have the statue of Rhodes removed from the campus (about two/three years ago). The only thing that finally shut him up was when someone told him if he really felt that strongly about it, maybe he would consider returning the money that he had been receiving thanks to the ''Rhodes scholarship'' which paid him £15,000 a year to study there. :Hilarious


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Its shame because it distracts from the racism in this country and he should perhaps concentrate on that .

Another "racism" row. Absurd.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rs-sue-sadiq-khan-race-minority-a8802461.html

*Uber drivers sue Sadiq Khan for discrimination against ethnic minority drivers*

Private hire vehicle drivers are mounting a legal challenge against London mayor Sadiq Khan after he proposed new rules which require minicab and Uber drivers to pay the congestion charge.

United Private Hire Drivers, a branch of the Independent Workers Union of Great Britain, claims that the rule change indirectly discriminates against ethnic minority drivers and breaches their human rights.

The drivers are currently exempt from paying the congestion charge while travelling in central London.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

My OH spent time in Mozambique helping families with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The families didn’t care about the colour of his skin, so why would anyone else?!
He didn’t do it to be a “white saviour” He did it because he’s a kind and compassionate person who considers himself very priveledged to have been in a position to be able to help. He can’t help being white!

Can you imagine the uproar if a white celeb now said they can’t help raise money for Africa because the people there are black!

“Sorry.. can’t help them because I’m white and they’re black. I’ll just raise money for white people instead”

It’s absolutely ridiculous!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Its shame because it distracts from the racism in this country and he should perhaps concentrate on that .
> 
> Another "racism" row. Absurd.
> 
> ...


For them not to see quite clearly that SK himself belongs to an ethnic minority group really does take a special kind of stupid, don't you think? Whatever next. David Lammy has done us a real favour, lots of comical stories to tell eh, @kimthecat?
ETA: Not sure why black cab drivers are not expected to pay; they must pollute as much as the next person. Before long there will be the pollution charge too, so that's nice.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

An article from the Scotsman on the subject
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...ould-think-twice-about-comic-relief-1-4882380

"In reality, no-one was suggesting the £1bn-plus Comic Relief has raised was unnecessary or unwelcome; just that there are ways to help developing countries that do not involve fetishising human suffering or ignoring our country's complicity in their plight."


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Jonescat said:


> An article from the Scotsman on the subject
> https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...ould-think-twice-about-comic-relief-1-4882380
> 
> "In reality, no-one was suggesting the £1bn-plus Comic Relief has raised was unnecessary or unwelcome; just that there are ways to help developing countries that do not involve fetishising human suffering or ignoring our country's complicity in their plight."


I get that, but it seems a little unnecessary to have a go at the lady in the picture. Plus, it is surely counterproductive to suggest that those giving money are fetishising human suffering and are somehow partly responsible for the plight of those the charity is benefitting. The most likely, and understandable reaction is going to be "Well sod you then!" and the donations will disappear.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Calvine said:


> ETA: Not sure why black cab drivers are not expected to pay; they must pollute as much as the next person. Before long there will be the pollution charge too, so that's nice.


Drivers of black cabs, or cab drivers who are black? 



This particular white saviour won't be giving to comic relief. Well done Lammy. What an idiot.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MilleD said:


> Drivers of black cabs, or cab drivers who are black?


Sorry, yes, them as what drives black cabs - regardless of what colour the driver may be.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Arnie83 said:


> The most likely, and understandable reaction is going to be "Well sod you then!" and the donations will disappear.


Absolutely: there are so many other needy/worthy causes in this country which can always use a few quid and which will receive donations gratefully.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

MilleD said:


> Drivers of black cabs, or cab drivers who are black?
> 
> 
> 
> *This particular white saviour won't be giving to comic relief. Well done Lammy. What an idiot*.


As I've said, they have lot my support, I'm sticking to my own favorite ones the Air Ambulance West Midlands and Guide Dogs for the Blind and a few local animal ones.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Agreed - of all the people to go after, she wasn't the one I'd have picked. But not sure why people have taken so much offence at one man to the point of not supporting CR, when all he can claim to represent is Tottenham (which he clearly does, as their elected MP). Why take it out on CR by not donating, because of one person you don't agree with? It isn't CR and it isn't the people they help that are objecting so why are people penalising them?

I think the argument is with CR, who have been asked to change the way they represent the people they help and haven't done so. Lammy has been trying to get this changed since at least 2017 and for him the pic is evidence that they aren't doing so. It could have had any celeb in it, it just happens to be her this year. And it has generated a lot of talk, so job done from his perspective.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jonescat said:


> Agreed - of all the people to go after, she wasn't the one I'd have picked. But not sure why people have taken so much offence at one man to the point of not supporting CR, when all he can claim to represent is Tottenham (which he clearly does, as their elected MP). *Why take it out on CR by not donating, because of one person you don't agree with? It isn't CR and it isn't the people they help that are objecting so why are people penalising them?*
> 
> I think the argument is with CR, who have been asked to change the way they represent the people they help and haven't done so. Lammy has been trying to get this changed since at least 2017 and for him the pic is evidence that they aren't doing so. It could have had any celeb in it, it just happens to be her this year. And it has generated a lot of talk, so job done from his perspective.


See that's the bit I don't understand (bold). David Lammy doesn't speak for CR so am not sure why people would stop donating if they believe in the cause.

Personally, whether people agree with his comments or not surely it's always worth re-looking at how we portray people, situations, etc as we do with most things in life.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I haven't donated to comic/sport relief for a few years now as I have my own charities I prefer to support. I think one of the main issues with David Lammy's comments is that many white people will be worried about donating in case they too are deemed to have some sort of "white saviour" complex. His vilification of Stacey Dooley is both puzzling and shocking.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> See that's the bit I don't understand (bold). David Lammy doesn't speak for CR so am not sure why people would stop donating if they believe in the cause.
> 
> *Personally, whether people agree with his comments or not surely it's always worth re-looking at how we portray people, situations, etc as we do with most things in life.*


You're not wrong, but as with many messages the problem has been with the manner of the communication of the message, not the message itself.

The aid system to Africa does need an overhaul, no question. Corruption is rife (bribes for officials are often just another routine budget line item), and a lot of the money raised by big charities never actually helps those in need. Tracking funding and ensuring the money goes where it is supposed to is hard, often impossible. The biggest charities didn't really grasp that at the outset, and may well be in denial about it. It's so hard for us to understand, the difference between the mindset is vast, and we all hate to admit we've been taken for a ride.

And a successfully provided benefit may not persist without continual monitoring - one of the many instances I know of due to certain connections is money was raised by a UK group to build a library at an African school a friend of theirs was teaching at, so the children had ready access to educational books (a very precious resource). So it was duly built, stocked and opened - and then the head teacher locked it up for his personal use only, or those who were 'deserving' (I don't think I need to elaborate what that means).

Plus there is always the 'celebs jumping on the bandwagon for personal profile reasons' problem, though I think perhaps Comic Relief are less guilty of that than, say, Live Aid. But there is also a catch-22 - rightly or wrongly from a moral standpoint, using celebrities to advertise your cause gains much more attention than unknown worthies, and therefore raises more money. That's basic psychology. Balancing that truth with sensitivity in presenting your cause is a massive headache and the outcome is never going to please everyone.

Which brings us back to Mr Lammy's comments. He may have valid points, but the choice to use the phrase 'white saviours' can probably be considered ill-advised, especially considering his chosen example has a solid history of genuine investigative journalism in associated areas. Rather than provoke thoughts of 'Comic Relief needs to change the way it works', instead it has frequently garnered one of two highly emotive responses from your average people who would usually consider donating:

1. Indignation and anger ("I gave because I just wanted to help people worse off than me and thought this was a good way of doing it, and I get called names!")
2. Embarrassment and uncertainty ("Oh no, did I do something wrong by donating when I'm white? Am I allowed to give to causes where I'm not part of that social group?")

I suspect a combination of the two is also common. Either way, rather than opening a debate it rather feels like battle lines have been drawn, and I'm not sure how the situation will recover from that.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> You're not wrong, but as with many messages the problem has been with the manner of the communication of the message, not the message itself.
> 
> The aid system to Africa does need an overhaul, no question. Corruption is rife (bribes for officials are often just another routine budget line item), and a lot of the money raised by big charities never actually helps those in need. Tracking funding and ensuring the money goes where it is supposed to is hard, often impossible. The biggest charities didn't really grasp that at the outset, and may well be in denial about it. It's so hard for us to understand, the difference between the mindset is vast, and we all hate to admit we've been taken for a ride.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Great post @Jesthar !


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Many moons ago parcels with help were coming to my predominantly white country, some of them sent from UK and possibly by mixed race people...
We were just grateful someone cares, it meant a lot we were not alone.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Apparently Will Smith is too light skinned to play Serena Williams father in a film.

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainme...eing-cast-as-venus-and-serena-williams-father

Actor Will Smith is catching serious backlash over colorism for his lighter skin tone after being cast as Richard Williams, father of famed tennis stars Venus and Serena Williams.

According to a report from Deadline, Smith will play Richard in the upcoming film "King Richard," based on a spec script by Zach Baylin. The film will tell the story of the 77-year-old Williams, who, despite having no formal tennis experience, overcame many hardships and a troubled past to raise and coach two of the greatest competitors to ever play the game.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/will-smith-revealed-as-blue-genie-in-aladdin

I followed your link and got this lol. Will Smith as a blue genie. He's not blue, he's not magical, he doesn't fit in a lamp and he's never been a slave. How very dare they? 

Anyway, Robin Williams was the genie. 

Isn't the whole point in acting, playing something you aren't? I don't get it. Who are all these people who object at everything?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/will-smith-revealed-as-blue-genie-in-aladdin
> 
> I followed your link and got this lol. Will Smith as a blue genie. He's not blue, he's not magical, he doesn't fit in a lamp and he's never been a slave. How very dare they?
> 
> ...


 :Hilarious

Really miss Robin Williams, I always thought he should have played the Joker in Batman rather that the Jim Carey.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> Really miss Robin Williams, I always thought he should have played the Joker in Batman rather that the Jim Carey.


I think you mean The Riddler, the Joker was never Robin Williams kind of funny!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> I think you mean The Riddler, the Joker was never Robin Williams kind of funny!


Good catch ! Yeah , the Riddler !


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Elles said:


> https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/will-smith-revealed-as-blue-genie-in-aladdin
> 
> I followed your link and got this lol. Will Smith as a blue genie. He's not blue, he's not magical, he doesn't fit in a lamp and he's never been a slave. How very dare they?
> 
> ...


I think those people have a chip on their shoulder, and not a blue chip either.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

One of the problems white people have with understanding what white saviour complex means is that we are not able to see things like this from the perspective of a person of colour.

This is the same as a man not being able to understand certain issues that are exclusively experienced by women. 

I'm not talking specifically about the Stacey Dooley thing, more about how easy it is for a white person to dismiss someone like David Lammy without fully appreciating how he has reached his views.

I think it's fairer just to acknowledge that fact rather than scoff at things we can't fully understand or appreciate.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I was going to respond similarly @bearcub 
It's too easy for white people to dismiss issues of race and racism. As you say it's annoying af when men with no real understanding hold forth on feminism, I therefore try not to do the white woman equivalent when it comes to issues facing POC.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I just wonder what Bob Geldof will say about that...
I can see it from the receiving end... I remember my mum queueing to get powdered milk for my toddler brother, milk sent from The West and distributed by the parish priest and I can tell you she didn’t care what race, religion or politics were behind it, my baby brother didn’t care either.

If you ever experienced lack of food for your children then tell me it bothered you what race was a person who donated or who volunteered.

If you ever run at crack of dawn, once curfew was lifted to queue in the dark, snow till the shop open and then some more with your coupon for 2kg of meat per month. 0,5 butter, per month...

I remember the red American cheese and salted butter. It meant that I would not do my homework on someone’s back queuing for food, but will stay home on that winter evening.


It is a shame if those who need real help will get less with that kind of sanctimonious PC.

So Drogba helping is fine but Beckham is a white saviour?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> I just wonder what Bob Geldof will say about that...
> I can see it from the receiving end... I remember my mum queueing to get powdered milk for my toddler brother, milk sent from The West and distributed by the parish priest and I can tell you she didn't care what race, religion or politics were behind it, my baby brother didn't care either.
> 
> If you ever experienced lack of food for your children then tell me it bothered you what race was a person who donated or who volunteered.
> ...


I think Drogba would be unlikely to perpetuate an outdated, lazy stereotype of 'Africa'. I imagine, considering he is from the Ivory Coast that he would be able to speak with more authority and understanding about his own country. Furthermore, he would probably have a better understanding that the word Africa refers to a continent and can't be broadly described as having a single characteristic like 'poor'.

It's the difference between the role of an ambassador and the role of a saviour.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

This is why I support animal charities.
No one tells me off no matter what breed, or colour, but surely one day some animal rights fighter will say something about a stereotype of “animal saviour” ...
Yes, I get it. Stereotypes and what not.

Celebs posing with poor kids or abandoned pets.

Our charity got proposal from a pageant, participants wanted to pose with our pets.
We think any publicity will be good if it brings the funds to save more poor dog s and others in killing stations.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

picaresque said:


> I was going to respond similarly @bearcub
> It's too easy for white people to dismiss issues of race and racism. , I therefore try not to do the white woman equivalent when it comes to issues facing POC.





bearcub said:


> One of the problems white people have with understanding what white saviour complex means is that we are not able to see things like this from the perspective of a person of colour.
> I think it's fairer just to acknowledge that fact rather than scoff at things we can't fully understand or appreciate.


 I see your points but it can get confusing . Is it ok to use the word colour or coloured because Amber Rudd is getting crap for it.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...oured/ar-BBUuzEs?li=BBoPWjQ&OCID=ansmsnnews11


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> This is why I support animal charities.
> No one tells me off no matter what breed, or colour, but surely one day some animal rights fighter will say something about a stereotype of "animal saviour" ...
> Yes, I get it. Stereotypes and what not.
> 
> ...


I suppose there is an equivalent with animals and it's where the act of saving or helping is ill thought through, not helpful and ultimately damaging. A really simplistic example would be bringing a fox or hedgehog you find into your home for it to 'recover' when you have absolutely no real understanding of its needs.

The similarity that can be drawn is about the arrogance of assuming our experience adequately equips us to tackle a problem when it rarely does.

That's where the similarity ends though. There is a fundamental and crucial difference between human and animals in this situation. Dogs in a shelter (for example) cannot speak for themselves, rely on advocacy and cannot be disempowered as humans can.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

We are talking about Stacey Dooley though and about David Lammy specifically. We aren’t talking generally, but about a specific incident and the backlash. He attacked an investigative journalist over a photo, calling her a white saviour and accusing her of perpetuating colonialism and promoting the view of Africa as one large, undeveloped, poor country. We haven’t even seen comic relief this year yet. We have no idea of the content, or what Stacey Dooley was asked to do. 

Her last programme that I saw, was the one about ethnic minority, native prostitutes in remote Canada being murdered, the culture surrounding them and the institutionalised racism and apparent police disinterest. It was a hard hitting documentary, in which the people concerned were given a platform to share their stories. Maybe that’s why comic relief chose her this year, rather than a pop star. It’s not a job that just anyone can do, just because those who are good at it make it look easy.

I think maybe the various African countries do no longer need Western aid. We shouldn’t be perpetuating the myth that Africa is some poor country, when it’s a diverse continent. The best way to do that is in investment, not charitable aid that often it seems, ends up in the hands of corrupt government and officials. We could move away from it, but insulting Stacey Dooley and in the process insulting every caring person who donated to charity, is in my opinion, no way for a politician and people’s representative to go about it. 

Though he may get his wish. If because of his comments westerners become reluctant to donate to overseas charity, it could be the end of it and of comic relief. Time will tell.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm sick to death of PCness. I mean , who makes the rules and does everyone agree?

Im pissed that deaf people in America have decided that hearing impaired is now non PC . Impaired is the "offensive " word so now they have gone back to using the absurd Hard of Hearing . What on earth does that mean . Its official , they put that on medical notes .

I *am* hearing impaired , it is an impairment to me so now I say deaf at hospital appointments rather than say hearing impaired and then the receptionist writing Hard of Hearing .


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I have a feeling that the majority don’t agree tbh. We’d all like to be able to just talk without worrying about it. It’s the intent behind a word that matters. 

I don’t like the word ‘cis’ particularly, but someone decided that’s right and I have no say in it. So how come all these other people get to say how they want to be referred to, but I don’t?

However, to be fair, by objecting to ‘cis’ and ‘hard of hearing’ we’re joining in with it aren’t we. :Bag

ETA by ‘don’t agree’ I mean with PC ness and do agree with you.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

@kimthecat The word coloured, when describing a human being, has a lot of unpleasant baggage.
It is true that wrt race the 'correct' language is ever-changing. The descriptor people/person of colour has been adopted by the black* community of late and is better than the truly awful British equivalent that is BAME (black and minority ethnic) which sounds like it's describing alien beings.

*I mean non-white rather than specifically black but that is a truly 'othering' term - I mean I would not appreciate being defined by the term 'non-man. This is possibly why POC has caught on.

@Elles Cis can cis off to be fair

ETA I'm probably full of it tbf, it is almost 3am and it appears my inner overly-earnest-A-level-student has come out


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

What the hell is cis?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> What the hell is cis?


Oh blimey, that's a thread of it's own!! See the Gender Issues one 

Cis refers to people whose gender identity is the same as their biological sex. It is a term that some people are trying to push through but is not something I use or will …. but again that's a whole different debate


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## Alan Jackdon (Mar 2, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh blimey, that's a thread of it's own!! See the Gender Issues one
> 
> Cis refers to people whose gender identity is the same as their biological sex. It is a term that some people are trying to push through but is not something I use or will …. but again that's a whole different debate


That's just bloody ridiculous. What's wrong with people these days


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

picaresque said:


> @kimthecat The word coloured, when describing a human being, has a lot of unpleasant baggage.
> It is true that wrt race the 'correct' language is ever-changing. The descriptor people/person of colour has been adopted by the black* community of late and is better than the truly awful British equivalent that is BAME (black and minority ethnic) which sounds like it's describing alien beings.
> 
> *I mean non-white rather than specifically black but that is a truly 'othering' term - I mean I would not appreciate being defined by the term 'non-man. This is possibly why POC has caught on.
> ...


I hate the cis term too.

The trouble with the 'ever-changing' terms for black and/or ethnic minority is that a lot of people will completely avoid even mentioning them by any term for fear of saying the wrong thing.

And the world shouldn't be like that.

And saying that we shouldn't be able to be offended by the white saviour comment if you're white is the epitome of hypocrisy when you think about how easily offended others can be.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> I hate the cis term too.
> 
> The trouble with the 'ever-changing' terms for black and/or ethnic minority is that a lot of people will completely avoid even mentioning them by any term for fear of saying the wrong thing.
> 
> ...


See that's the problem with language at times, it changes & some people can't keep up with the latest terminology & then worry about offending people. Whilst I agree that some terms are blatantly racist/sexist/homophobic, etc some weren't at one time & were common in describing different groups. I think it's important to be aware but equally I don't believe that people should be called out so aggressively simply for using a term that might no longer be acceptable.

With the Diane Abbot/Amber Judd comments I think this is just another example of politicians point scoring over each other rather than really addressing issues …. pathetic!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

picaresque said:


> @kimthecat The word coloured, when describing a human being, has a lot of unpleasant baggage.
> It is true that wrt race the 'correct' language is ever-changing. The descriptor people/person of colour has been adopted by the black* community of late and is better than the truly awful British equivalent that is BAME (black and minority ethnic) which sounds like it's describing alien beings.
> 
> *I mean non-white rather than specifically black but that is a truly 'othering' term - I mean I would not appreciate being defined by the term 'non-man. This is possibly why POC has caught on.
> ...


Afro Caribbean was/is a well used term too but its a bit of a mouthful. 
To get back to the word coloured and its offensiveness. Yes , it has negative connections . Im old enough to remember the 60s and 70s .
In the States, Coloured had negative connections but so did Black in South Africa, Kenya and the old Rhodesia , now known as Zimbabawe etc .

In this country, in the 1960's and early 70s, perhaps due to our closeness to the Commonwealth , it became PC to use coloured instead of black. It was well meaning and not meant to be racist. Fair enough that it is old fashioned. But if people are saying it s racist because of its connections then the same applies to Black. I wouldnt be surprised if some older generations of black people still refer to themselves coloured . I know an elderly man near me did, perhaps from habit. 
What _is_ offensive is n*gger and w*g. They are used with intent to abusive and racist.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> Afro Caribbean was/is a well used term too but its a bit of a mouthful.
> To get back to the word coloured and its offensiveness. Yes , it has negative connections . Im old enough to remember the 60s and 70s .
> In the States, Coloured had negative connections but so did Black in South Africa, Kenya and the old Rhodesia , now known as Zimbabawe etc .
> 
> ...


I agree, I think a lot of older people still feel that the term 'coloured' is less offensive & 'politer' in some ways. I know my grandparents were like this & would hate to have thought they were being disrespectful or offensive as they were big on manners regardless of who you were.

In some ways we get too hung up on words as such rather than just accepting that not everyone is up to date with language preferences & terminology. I am quite deaf in one ear, I have no problem with word deaf … why would I it's not derogatory. Deaf old b*tch maybe tho


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> To get back to the word coloured


 It is not considered at all offensive (as far as I know) to refer to a black female as ''a lady of colour''; or is it? Certainly quite recently it wasn't as I remember reading an article about successful black women and they were referred to as ''ladies of colour''. And of course the Latin for black is niger - ***** - nigrum which is where its present form stems from.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Calvine said:


> It is not considered at all offensive (as far as I know) to refer to a black female as ''a lady of colour''; or is it? Certainly quite recently it wasn't as I remember reading an article about successful black women and they were referred to as ''ladies of colour''. And of course the Latin for black is niger - ***** - nigrum which is where its present form stems from.


The world has gone mad, when you have to think about of every word to you say before you say it, just in case you upset
someone.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> What _is_ offensive is n*gger and w*g. They are used with intent to abusive and racist.


Unless you are black/coloured/whatever the preferred terminology is.

Or you're Eminem


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Happy Paws said:


> The world has gone mad, when you have to think about of every word to you say before you say it, just in case you upset
> someone.


It reminds me how sad I am about Dillon every time you post HP. Hope you are doing ok x


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> What _is_ offensive is n*gger and w*g.


It's weird; I have seen films where black guys in a gang refer to each other as ''my *****'' as a term of very close friendship, but they won't let anyone white use it. Confused.com!

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/*****


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Calvine said:


> It's weird; I have seen films where black guys in a gang refer to each other as ''my *****'' as a term of very close friendship, but they won't let anyone white use it. Confused.com!
> 
> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/*****


I'm sure there are things your close friends or family call you that you wouldn't want to be called by a stranger. For instance my partner calls me sugar tits but if my colleague called me that I'd punch him in the face.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

bearcub said:


> I'm sure there are things your close friends or family call you that you wouldn't want to be called by a stranger. For instance my partner calls me sugar tits but if my colleague called me that I'd punch him in the face.


Yeah, that's exactly the same thing as how the N word is used


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Yeah, that's exactly the same thing as how the N word is used


Why even point that out?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bearcub said:


> One of the problems white people have with understanding what white saviour complex means is that we are not able to see things like this from the perspective of a person of colour.
> 
> This is the same as a man not being able to understand certain issues that are exclusively experienced by women.
> 
> ...


So well said @bearcub

I mentioned in the "what are you reading" thread the book "The Hate You Give" and in many ways, it takes reading that entire book (and others like it) to even begin to grasp concepts like the white savior, white privilege, and even terminology.

I agree that people shouldn't be silenced or shamed for simply not knowing, but I also think people need to be more open to being educated about what it's like to walk in other's shoes.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> So well said @bearcub
> 
> I mentioned in the "what are you reading" thread the book "The Hate You Give" and in many ways, it takes reading that entire book (and others like it) to even begin to grasp concepts like the white savior, white privilege, and even terminology.
> 
> I agree that people shouldn't be silenced or shamed for simply not knowing, but I also think people need to be more open to being educated about what it's like to walk in other's shoes.


It's a tad patronising don't you think to assume that people can't grasp the concept of what it is to be considered different, and in some cases inferior, by others?

Because I guess black and ethnic minorities have a monopoly on that do they?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MilleD said:


> It's a tad patronising don't you think to assume that people can't grasp the concept of what it is to be considered different, and in some cases inferior, by others?
> 
> Because I guess black and ethnic minorities have a monopoly on that do they?


I'm not sure how you got that from what I posted. 
I was simply trying to convey how complex and nuanced the issue is.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh blimey, that's a thread of it's own!! See the Gender Issues one
> 
> Cis refers to people whose gender identity is the same as their biological sex. It is a term that some people are trying to push through but is not something I use or will …. but again that's a whole different debate


It's the assumption than we all have a 'gender identity' that I most object to. I'm not especially 'feminine', I'm still female though.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> It's the assumption than we all have a 'gender identity' that I most object to. I'm not especially 'feminine', I'm still female though.


Yes I suppose so … I'm not the most feminine of women …. maybe if there was 'bag lady' option It would be more fitting


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Yes I suppose so … I'm not the most feminine of women …. maybe if there was 'bag lady' option It would be more fitting


I'm a bit of a bag lady sort as well but I've decided that I actually identify as wealthy so you all need to give me money.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> I'm a bit of a bag lady sort as well but I've decided that I actually identify as wealthy so you all need to give me money.


Oooh, yes that sounds like an excellent idea!! I demand access to all posh, exclusive clubs, restaurants, etc  :Cigar :Kiss :Woot :Greedy


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I agree that people shouldn't be silenced or shamed for simply not knowing, but I also think people need to be more open to being educated about what it's like to walk in other's shoes.


I think any decent person is open to education in such matters - and the fundamentals, at least, most people don't have any problem grasping as long as the message is placed in terms they can both appreciate and understand in the correct context.

The problem in this instance has been more with the manner in which the attempt at education has been conducted, rather than the message itself. "The world does not need any more 'white saviours' " is not exactly a tactful phrase to deploy as an opening gambit in what is obviously going to be a sensitive debate, nor will it be emotionally appreciated by your average white person who was just looking to help someone worse off, even if they agree with the basic sentiment.

Please note, I'm not saying the topic should be pussy-footed around, but people in general usually react better to being told "It's nice that you want to help, but this isn't the best way of doing it, try this instead - and here's the reasons why if you're interested" if it's phrased like that, rather than "You're doing it wrong and its insulting, we don't need that kind of help"

And yes, I'm pretty sure everyone gets fed up with repeating themselves with the first approach, especially to the inevitable bunch who won't listen and assume they know best. I know what gets better results in the long term, though


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I guess it all depends what you deal with day to day. I have found cis jolly useful in certain conversations with a transitioning family member. It is so much easier in a conversation where, at the start, I hadn't got a clue how to talk about it, to have some shorthand to use. I still find it useful to have put the effort in to understand and have managed to maintain my relationship with them on the basis that I can ask daft questions and they will give me credit for trying. We don't use it all the time but sometimes it is the only word that will do.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jonescat said:


> I guess it all depends what you deal with day to day. I have found cis jolly useful in certain conversations with a transitioning family member. It is so much easier in a conversation where, at the start, I hadn't got a clue how to talk about it, to have some shorthand to use. I still find it useful to have put the effort in to understand and have managed to maintain my relationship with them on the basis that I can ask daft questions and they will give me credit for trying. We don't use it all the time but sometimes it is the only word that will do.


I have found myself on occasion needing to use "cis" and I too find it very useful and clarifying. *shrug* doesn't bother me at all really. It's not like I have to go around identifying myself as a cis female, but in the right context it's a very useful term.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> I think any decent person is open to education in such matters - and the fundamentals, at least, most people don't have any problem grasping as long as the message is placed in terms they can both appreciate and understand in the correct context.
> 
> The problem in this instance has been more with the manner in which the attempt at education has been conducted, rather than the message itself. "The world does not need any more 'white saviours' " is not exactly a tactful phrase to deploy as an opening gambit in what is obviously going to be a sensitive debate, nor will it be emotionally appreciated by your average white person who was just looking to help someone worse off, even if they agree with the basic sentiment.
> 
> ...


I agree & I think atm with the whole clusterf*ck that is Brexit & politicians are demonstrating daily how bloody useless they are this was not exactly well considered!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

It sounds like it had an affect 
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...s-viewing-figures-fall?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

To be honest I saw very little this year and got cross with Olivia Coleman and her 'as a
parent' which I understood to be that she apparently has more understanding than those who are not. Those of us who have lost or have to deal with a live unexpected know so much too. Generally I find most people capable of empathy, without any knowledge of their parental status. It's called being human...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I saw the Stacey Dooley part. She was in a hospital talking to patients and doctors about malaria, which she has had herself. They were showing what donations from comic relief had done to protect from malaria. 

My grandmother had malaria. She would get attacks and had to take medication her whole life. She had also had all her teeth removed as they used to believe it lived under your teeth I think. 

Other than that I watched the Comic Relief does University Challenge, which was quite fun.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Never watched it this, I've lost interest in it. I've got better things to do with my money.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> without any knowledge of their parental status.


Yes: You will recall that Andrea Leadsom had to apologise to Mrs May for saying that ''being a mother'' gave her the edge over her (TM) and probably lost her the leadership.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Calvine said:


> Yes: You will recall that Andrea Leadsom had to apologise to Mrs May for saying that ''being a mother'' gave her the edge over her (TM) and probably lost her the leadership.


Oh yes, very aware of that!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

latest news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48607113

Comic Relief is to send fewer celebrities abroad after criticism that stars like Stacey Dooley were going to Africa as "white saviours".

The charity's co-founder, screenwriter Richard Curtis, told MPs TV appeals "will be heading in the direction of not using" celebrities abroad.

He said they would be "very careful to give voices to people" who live there.

MP David Lammy, who had criticised the Dooley film, praised the plan to move away from "tired, harmful stereotypes".

Earlier this year, Comic Relief and Dooley - a documentary-maker and Strictly Come Dancing winner - were criticised after she travelled to Uganda to make an appeal film about the charity's work in the country.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Suspect the damage has already been done, though. Even a few months down the line the thought of donating or doing anything for Comic Relief makes me uncomfortable, simply because I'm white and my head still thinks it's not acceptable to want to help people from other ethnic backgrounds any more...


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> Suspect the damage has already been done, though. Even a few months down the line the thought of donating or doing anything for Comic Relief makes me uncomfortable, simply because I'm white and my head still thinks it's not acceptable to want to help people from other ethnic backgrounds any more...


They must be seeing a fall in donations. And to say they aren't going to use celebrities is surely folding under pressure.

Like it or not, people are attracted by celebrity. It gets money donated.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

I think it's a good thing in the long term. I felt uncomfortable for a while with white celebs (most of whom I didn't know) going over there as some kind of saviour. _There is no doubt that most of the people that went did with the absolute best intent with love and care on their mind, and even the photos of that celebrity with the baby wasn't done with any harm intended. 
_
However, I do find it a bit weird and extraordinarily shallow if the only reason some people donate is because their favourite singer/celeb is there filming, and if their favourite celeb stops presenting (the film), they won't donate. 
Celebrities can still present the programme of Comic Relief itself, as we need famous people/comedians to present the actual show.

I have always watched Comic Relief, from the early 1990's in my late teens and always donated, and it had nothing to do with if a celebrity was on it or not (presenting the film). I might have _liked _the film more if a presenter or comedian I knew was presenting the film, but I got over that in my early 20's, and it had no influence on if I donated or not.

Africa has many wonderful things and many great people. There are African people who work hard all year on projects, and _these_ are the people who should be presenting the films, or local journalists. _They _are the experts in their field. I agree with David Lammy when he said the "tired, harmful stereotypes" are wrong. I also agree with Richard Curtis when he said we should be "very careful to give voices to people" who live there.

This is not to say the good work shouldn't continue. There is nothing wrong with a group of celebs going to Africa and doing a sponsored climb of Mount Kilimanjaro. But there is a world of different between doing a sponsored climb and cuddling a baby and looking sad whilst patronising the local people, however good your intentions are. Yes, we need to see the poverty to donate, but these needs to be presented by local journalists and the experts in the field.



Jesthar said:


> Suspect the damage has already been done, though. Even a few months down the line the thought of donating or doing anything for Comic Relief makes me uncomfortable, simply because I'm white and my head still thinks it's not acceptable to want to help people from other ethnic backgrounds any more...


Really? I still donate. I don't feel guilty about it, I just think they need to change the way they film things.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

There's so many charities its hard to choose. I don't tend to do Comic relief or Children in need now. I tend to do appeals for disasters or syrian refugee children , things like hats and gloves for the winter. It easy to do on your phone.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

i really feel for Stacey Dooley
she was asked to do a job because she was a popular person on the tv
she went out and did said job, just like many others that were showcased that night and in the many years before
all of a sudden because of some mp seeing 'white savour-ism', were the was non intended,
and
all because she picked a child up and did a bit of gushing
she being flouted as the poster child, for all that is wrong with the 1st world raising money for others

Seems like all the hard hitting documentaries she did, on bbc3, where she faced up to

traffickers of both drugs and humans
women selling and abusing their children for pedophiles
children being 'snatched' from gypsies by social workers in the bakan countries
sex workers, both trafficked and voluntary
and more

is for nought
all because she picked up a child and was photographed
how more evil could she get?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> i really feel for Stacey Dooley
> she was asked to do a job because she was a popular person on the tv
> she went out and did said job, just like many others that were showcased that night and in the many years before
> all of a sudden because of some mp seeing 'white savour-ism', were the was non intended,
> ...


Agree with you . I feel for her too. I didn't see the appeal but Im sure she genuinely felt for those children and wasnt putting on a sad face.
Imagine if they had said that about Bob Gedolf ! Live aid might never have happened.
I suppose times change .
I remember the starving children in Biafra in the sixties. We were in primary school and some of us got together and raised six shillings which was a lot then, for Oxfam . I think Britain is a generous nation and I hope it continues.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Jackie C said:


> Really? I still donate. I don't feel guilty about it, I just think they need to change the way they film things.


Guilty isn't the phrase I'd use - I don't feel guilty at all. I'm not sure there IS a phrase that describes how I feel. Apprehensive, uncertain, worried I'm doing the wrong thing - or that it's a thing considered unwanted or even offensive by the people considered best placed in this country to represent the overseas recipients. It just doesn't feel like a safe option for me as a pasty white girl to donate to any more, not in my head.


kimthecat said:


> Imagine if they had said that about Bob Gedolf ! Live aid might never have happened.
> I suppose times change


Actually, Live Aid didn't really handle things well at all, and is probably the root cause of the backlash Comic Relief are now getting...


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> i really feel for Stacey Dooley
> she was asked to do a job because she was a popular person on the tv
> she went out and did said job, just like many others that were showcased that night and in the many years before
> all of a sudden because of some mp seeing 'white savour-ism', were the was non intended,
> ...


See this is part of the problem. You have understandably been left feeling sorry for a celebrity who leads a very priveliged existence. But it should never have been about her. That picture should have told us the story of the child, her family and her community and who they were.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> See this is part of the problem. You have understandably been left feeling sorry for a celebrity who leads a very priveliged existence. But it should never have been about her. That picture should have told us the story of the child, her family and her community and who they were.


Not a celebrity, but a person, first and foremost. It couldve been you or I or a thousand other people, post a picture of a child in our arms with a caption saying something along the lines of awww! ( can't remember the actual wording)
As for the photo, I agree
Should've been yes
Was it no
Why
Because a celebrity was pictured holding a child?
No
But because some, jumped up, mp decided to get himself some self promotion and make it about white saviour-ism, in asking for donations, rather than simply seeing a person holding a child
I'm sure, had the programme been being shown in whatever country it was filmed in, a more regional recognised personality may have been used
But guess what? 
That personality may well have been white too, after all, not everyone who lives in countries, societies, or families,deemed "in need", are black!
So yes, I feel sorry for her, at being made the " whipping boy"
Yes I feel angry that, because if this mp nobody, the focal point of the picture was made about the exact opposite, to the actual short film showing how donations had helped said particular area/village/family
And yes, I believe had that been a black "personality" pick up a white child and post a caption that said 'awww!' (Or similar)We wouldn't be talking about it now


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

This is what she has posted on her Instagram in response acoording to the BBC:

"I understand the wider conversation that people want to have, and I understand that some are saying they feel it's a tired narrative... I get that.

"What is not OK is people making out like we were somehow sinister in our approach."

She then appeared to refer to her original picture with the boy: "It's completely untrue to suggest we didn't ask for consent. We spent the day with his grandad. He has a working relationship with Comic Relief.

"I'm willing to listen and learn, however I'm not willing to feel I have to justify myself to those who have already made up their mind, based on info they've been fed, by people who weren't there," she continued.

"Ultimately, the main priority is that the people on the ground felt happy with my behaviour.

"I'm still in contact with the families and the health workers and the fixers.

"I've taken on board what people are saying. Clearly Comic Relief have too.

"Essentially, what I'm saying is, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and to voice concerns. But please make sure you have the information and you're not making comments based on assumption x x."

Stacey Dooley was asked questions about her Comic Relief trip to Africa during a Q&A session at Sheffield Doc/Fest earlier this week


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Jackie C said:


> However, I do find it a bit weird and extraordinarily shallow if the only reason some people donate is because their favourite singer/celeb is there filming, and if their favourite celeb stops presenting (the film), they won't donate.
> Celebrities can still present the programme of Comic Relief itself, as we need famous people/comedians to present the actual show.
> 
> .


Celebrity absolutely gets people interested in things. Perhaps not the way it should be but it is. Personally I could care less if someone is famous or not.

But I feel what you've put above is pretty double standardy.

So they can't go and be 'white saviours' but they can present the programme??? That's an odd thing to say. People can't do right for doing wrong nowadays it seems.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> Guilty isn't the phrase I'd use - I don't feel guilty at all. I'm not sure there IS a phrase that describes how I feel. Apprehensive, uncertain, worried I'm doing the wrong thing - or that it's a thing considered unwanted or even offensive by the people considered best placed in this country to represent the overseas recipients. It just doesn't feel like a safe option for me as a pasty white girl to donate to any more, not in my head.
> 
> Actually, Live Aid didn't really handle things well at all, and is probably the root cause of the backlash Comic Relief are now getting...


We all get something back when we donate regardless who it is to, we feel we have helped and it is nothing to do with feeling superior or being a saviour , it is to do with compassion.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jonescat said:


> This is what she has posted on her Instagram in response acoording to the BBC:
> 
> "I understand the wider conversation that people want to have, and I understand that some are saying they feel it's a tired narrative... I get that.
> 
> ...


Good for her, she got a lot of crap on twitter that she didn't deserve .


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> And yes, I believe had that been a black "personality" pick up a white child and post a caption that said 'awww!' (Or similar)We wouldn't be talking about it now


What a ludicrous thing to say. Of course we wouldn't, there's no such thing as black saviourism. Do you understand the history behind white saviourism?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I think I read that Red Nose Day donations were down about £7 million this year over the previous (2018) year. Maybe that is the general trend with donations tho'; maybe, up to a point, it was going to happen anyway?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I think David Lammy is an attention seeking bully . He could have handled this a lot better, all he is doing is creating divides. 
You could say the whole of Comic Relief and every person who contributes to it is a white saviour .


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I think David Lammy is an attention seeking bully . He could have handled this a lot better, all he is doing is creating divides.
> You could say the whole of Comic Relief and every person who contributes to it is a white saviour .


No you couldn't.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> No you couldn't.


Yes I can actually , Thanks for your opinion though ,


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> What a ludicrous thing to say. Of course we wouldn't, there's no such thing as black saviourism. Do you understand the history behind white saviourism?


Obviously not, after all I'm just an ignorant white person, who forever needs to be an apologist for thing that happened centuries ago, without my input nor permission
I'm just an ignorant white person, whom must be patronised and talked down to, whose very thoughts are from an imperialist and privileged platform, someone who could never understand or empathise with any other race or colour
Please, oh mighty @bearcub enlighten and educate me on the struggles of -isms


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> He could have handled this a lot better,


He certainly could - talk about tactless!! He really did cause the ''divides'' that Diane Abbot was so vocal about (white people love to play 'divide and rule' or words to that effect).


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Obviously not, after all I'm just an ignorant white person, who forever needs to be an apologist for thing that happened centuries ago, without my input nor permission
> I'm just an ignorant white person, whom must be patronised and talked down to, whose very thoughts are from an imperialist and privileged platform, someone who could never understand or empathise with any other race or colour
> Please, oh mighty @bearcub enlighten and educate me on the struggles of -isms


Can I suggest rather than being on the defensive, you read the book, or at least the preface of "Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race" by Renni Eddo-Lodge? This is an essential read for anyone struggling with these concepts.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Calvine said:


> He certainly could - talk about tactless!! He really did cause the ''divides'' that Diane Abbot was so vocal about (white people love to play 'divide and rule' or words to that effect).


Interesting that you cite two opinions given by black people on this topic. Why do you think that is?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> He certainly could - talk about tactless!! He really did cause the ''divides'' that Diane Abbot was so vocal about (white people love to play 'divide and rule' or words to that effect).


Yes, indeed. Its hard to know why Comic relief didn't make so much , more than one reason I expect but I guess Lammy had something to do with it. 
So children who would have benefited are missing out and I wonder if those who do benefit will care that Stacy did the reporting rather than another reporter.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> So children who would have benefited are missing out


That's very sad when people have tried to help, giving generously of their time and money; but, of course, there is no shortage of charities here in this country who would be grateful for even a small share of the money which people no longer choose to give to Comic Relief. And that will be many people's attitude . . . OK, if they don't want it, I'll find someone who does.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Can I suggest rather than being on the defensive, you read the book, or at least the preface of "Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race" by Renni Eddo-Lodge? This is an essential read for anyone struggling with these concepts.


Obviously the sarcasm gene passed you by ( is it still sarcasm when one has to explain its sarcasm?)
I love the fact your comeback is to assume that I need to 'read' about concepts, rather than actually know about the reality
Your statements here are truly risible


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Obviously the sarcasm gene passed you by ( is it still sarcasm when one has to explain its sarcasm?)
> I love the fact your comeback is to assume that I need to 'read' about concepts, rather than actually know about the reality
> Your statements here are truly risible


I think this is the applicable terminology here...


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> I think this is the applicable terminology here...


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Obviously the sarcasm gene passed you by ( is it still sarcasm when one has to explain its sarcasm?)
> I love the fact your comeback is to assume that I need to 'read' about concepts, rather than actually know about the reality
> Your statements here are truly risible


You said this:



mrs phas said:


> Obviously not, after all I'm just an ignorant white person, who forever needs to be an apologist for thing that happened centuries ago, without my input nor permission
> I'm just an ignorant white person, whom must be patronised and talked down to, whose very thoughts are from an imperialist and privileged platform, someone who could never understand or empathise with any other race or colour


So particularly your (sarcastic) statement that you need to be forever apologising for "things that happened centuries ago" demonstrates to me that you do not understand the reality. If you did, you'd understand why your previous statement about black saviourism is so crass.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

bearcub said:


> Interesting that you cite two opinions given by black people on this topic. Why do you think that is?


Do you dislike white people as much as seems to come across in some of your posts?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Do you dislike white people as much as seems to come across in some of your posts?


I dislike the lack of humility demonstrated by so many white people.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

A bit OT but does anyone watch Blackish on E 4 freeview ? Its very good at bringing up Black issues and gets its point across in a humourous way .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> I dislike the lack of humility demonstrated by so many white people.


Wow! thats all I can say .


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Wow! thats all I can say .


I have no idea how to interpret that.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> I have no idea how to interpret that.


 I really don't care if you do or not.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> You said this:
> 
> So particularly your (sarcastic) statement that you need to be forever apologising for "things that happened centuries ago" demonstrates to me that you do not understand the reality. If you did, you'd understand why your previous statement about black saviourism is so crass.


Seeing as your so interested in playing the quoting game
Please quote, exactly, where I wrote about black saviour-ism, rather than where you think I wrote that


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I really don't care if you do or not.


Why are you so aggressive?


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Why are you so aggressive?


Why is that your response to anyone who doesnt agree with you?
Your attitude is the one that stinks of aggression, no one elses


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Seeing as your so interested in playing the quoting game
> Please quote, exactly, where I wrote about black saviour-ism, rather than where you think I wrote that


You mentioned that if a black person had been holding a white child we wouldn't call it out. So, this is the opposite idea of white saviourism, hence why I defined it myself as "black savourism".


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Stacey Dooley is a journalist who has suffered from malaria doing a report on malaria for comic relief. She is known for covering difficult and controversial subjects in her Stacey Dooley Investigates series.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04tqcby

Should her being a white woman exclude her?

One of his complaints was that she's not from Africa and doesn't know what it's like to live in Africa. She was reporting on a hospital and malaria. She does have experience of both. Malaria doesn't care where you come from. Her report focused on the doctor, not herself.

Obviously some people were upset about it, so comic relief won't do it again.

George RR Martin made a good point when he was asked why there aren't black people and culture in his books.






Basically, if you don't like it, you know more about it than a 60+ year old white guy, so what's stopping you? Why are black people leaving it up to the white guys? Break the chains and do it yourselves?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Why is that your response to anyone who doesnt agree with you?
> Your attitude is the one that stinks of aggression, no one elses


It really doesn't. I'm more than open to discussing this topic.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Why are you so aggressive?


Why do you exaggerate so much?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> I think this is the applicable terminology here...


:Hilarious
.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> You mentioned that if a black person had been holding a white child we wouldn't call it out. So, this is the opposite idea of white saviourism, hence why I defined it myself as "black savourism".


So I didn't mention black saviour-ism at all
YOU DID
and only you
I could've just as easily have said 
Had Lenny Henry been holding a white child, etc etc
After all, remember, Lenny Henry is BLACK, yet is also a founding member of Comic Relief
How do you equate that?
Surely if it was all about white issues, then he, along with other people of colour would have nothing to do with it at all


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> It really doesn't. I'm more than open to discussing this topic.


No you're not, you're just interested in seeing, perceiving and reading things that are simply not there, then twisting them for your opinions


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

@bearcub
Please enlighten us, and this is asked with utmost respect to you
Are you offended by my perceived white saviour-ism because you ARE a person of colour?
Or
Because you are white, but wish to speak for all offences, real or unreal, ancient or modern, against people of colour

if this was in RL we could all see the obvious answer, 
But
as we're not and as you are so vehemently accusational, then I believe the question needs to be asked, and, answered


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> So I didn't mention black saviour-ism at all
> YOU DID
> and only you
> I could've just as easily have said
> ...


Yes I had already agreed that I said it. I think you are confused about what the argument is here and it's got nothing to do with Lenny Henry.

OK, imagine a German documentary about homelessness in Manchester. German celebrities come over to the UK and are pictured alongside homeless people. In the documentary there is little mention of the efforts made by Mancunians to help the homeless and why the problem exists in the first place, only what the German fundraising has achieved. The Germans get all the credit for helping the 'helpless' and the German population viewing this documentary are left with an unhelpful, one-sided impression of Manchester and its homeless population. This image is distorted, warped and ultimately, does more to enhance the image of the German celebrities more than anything else. Do you get why this would be a problem?


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> @bearcub
> Please enlighten us, and this is asked with utmost respect to you
> Are you offended by my perceived white saviour-ism because you ARE a person of colour?
> Or
> ...


I am white. I'm not actually speaking for anyone but myself, and certainly not for black people. After all, this is a white person's problem.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Yes I had already agreed that I said it. I think you are confused about what the argument is here and it's got nothing to do with Lenny Henry.
> 
> OK, imagine a German documentary about homelessness in Manchester. German celebrities come over to the UK and are pictured alongside homeless people. In the documentary there is little mention of the efforts made by Mancunians to help the homeless and why the problem exists in the first place, only what the German fundraising has achieved. The Germans get all the credit for helping the 'helpless' and the German population viewing this documentary are left with an unhelpful, one-sided impression of Manchester and its homeless population. This image is distorted, warped and ultimately, does more to enhance the image of the German celebrities more than anything else. Do you get why this would be a problem?


Stop being so patronising
I used Lenny Henry as he is a founding member of comic relief AND black AND English
Or are you inferring that, just by being black, he has anymore knowledge of black AFRICAN issues (seeing as, I believe, this was the continent in which the picture was taken) than a black person from Africa has of black issues in Dudley?
Its about education and aid, not supremecy


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jackie C said:


> However, I do find it a bit weird and extraordinarily shallow if the only reason some people donate is because their favourite singer/celeb is there filming, and if their favourite celeb stops presenting (the film), they won't donate.
> Celebrities can still present the programme of Comic Relief itself, as we need famous people/comedians to present the actual show.


I really dont know how many people would donate simply because its their favourite person. Even if its shallow or weird , it brings in the money. 
I think its more to attract their fans' attention in the hope they will donate which I expect is what happens. Celebs have always been used to entice people . It generally works . Lots of fetes and fairs are opened by celebs and more people turn up and more money spent .


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Stop being so patronising
> I used Lenny Henry as he is a founding member of comic relief AND black AND English
> Or are you inferring that, just by being black, he has anymore knowledge of black AFRICAN issues (seeing as, I believe, this was the continent in which the picture was taken) than a black person from Africa has of black issues in Dudley?
> Its about education and aid, not supremecy


Patronising? How?

I actually didn't refer to Lenny Henry at all other than to say that the argument has got nothing to do with Lenny Henry. I'm not inferring anything. He will inherently though have a far more valid opinion on this issue than me as a white person.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> I am white. I'm not actually speaking for anyone but myself, and certainly not for black people. After all, this is a white person's problem.


No, its a non-problem, made an issue by the self aggrandising nature of a black politician, who would rather see racial division, than a just a picture of a person holding a child, he hadn't even seen the short film, when he made his accusation, just the still, photographic, picture
In that sense, woe betide anyone getting photographed with a child of a different ethnic origin, cos by doing so we're all white saviours


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The report was about malaria and mosquitos and mosquito nets. If you watch it, it focussed on the doctor, the hospital and the people, not Stacey Dooley, who is a journalist who had also suffered malaria. They didn’t use ‘celebrity’ like pop stars this time, because they took the previous criticism on board.

I’m sure if a German based charity had built a house for the homeless of Manchester and were raising more money to build houses and refuges for the homeless, no one would have a problem with a German reporter reporting on it for a German tv channel, audience and charitable people? You think someone of British descent living in Germany would complain about it? I think your analogy is pretty poor tbh.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Patronising? How?
> 
> I actually didn't refer to Lenny Henry at all other than to say that the argument has got nothing to do with Lenny Henry. I'm not inferring anything. He will inherently though have a far more valid opinion on this issue than me as a white person.


No you didn't, I'm happy to own that
But you still don't see the point, do you

BTW, quid pro quo, I'm a thrice removed (I think you'd describe it) German Jew
Had my great grandfather not migrated here in 1897, I may not be here at all


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> No, its a non-problem, made an issue by the self aggrandising nature of a black politician, who would rather see racial division, than a just a picture of a person holding a child, he hadn't even seen the short film, when he made his accusation, just the still, photographic, picture
> In that sense, woe betide anyone getting photographed with a child of a different ethnic origin, cos by doing so we're all white saviours


It really is not a non-problem. And David Lammy is certainly not the first person to describe it.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> The report was about malaria and mosquitos and mosquito nets. If you watch it, it focussed on the doctor, the hospital and the people, not Stacey Dooley, who is a journalist who had also suffered malaria. They didn't use 'celebrity' like pop stars this time, because they took the previous criticism on board.
> 
> I'm sure if a German based charity had built a house for the homeless of Manchester and were raising more money to build houses and refuges for the homeless, no one would have a problem with a German reporter reporting on it for a German tv channel, audience and charitable people? You think someone of British descent living in Germany would complain about it? I think your analogy is pretty poor tbh.


No it's a good analogy. The point is, it's a problem if the efforts of the local community are ignored which is what has happened in the history of Comic Relief.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

bearcub said:


> It really doesn't. I'm more than open to discussing this topic.


With the utmost respect, it's not really coming across that way.

This is the internet. I have no idea who you are, you have no idea who I am. I try to be careful and not make assumptions about the people I'm posting with - for example, I could assume from the vehmence of your responses that you are black and have personal experience of being constantly belittled by whites, but the reality is I have no idea whether you are white, black, asian or The Little Green Man with Zoom Zoom in tow. I also have no idea of any of your background, or how you reached your current opinions, but I could assume anything from it being the reality of daily life to reading the Daily Fail. If I wade in with assumptions, I only make myself look an idiot, especially when I'm inevitably wrong about things.

Likewise, you don't know anything about me, where I'm from, what my experiences are, how I feel about various things, who I've talked to to try and understand various issues.

The thing is, you probably have some valid points. Maybe lots of them. But unless you take the time and trouble to explain the whys and wherefores behind the things you are saying in a logical and reasonable fashion, you run the risk of appearing bombastic and judgemental. Dealing in absolutes and telling people 'you're wrong' - or worse, 'the way you feel is invalid' - without justifying that statement with reasoned points doesn't encourage people to explore other viewpoints. Education, not beration, is key.

If you read through the thread, I don't think you'll come across anyone saying that white saviourism should be acceptable. I also suspect that most would agree Mr Lammy actually had the core of a valid point, but picked a very bad way and example to make it. The upshot is it's left a lot of white people who genuinely only wanted to help people worse off than them upset and confused, rather than helping them understand how to do better in the future.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> It really is not a non-problem. And David Lammy is certainly not the first person to describe it.


Maybe it is a problem, but in this instance a British reporter travelled to Africa to report on a subject she has personally experienced, for British tv. The intended audience can relate to her and the report did focus on an African doctor and hospital, so the accusations that the locals were ignored aren't quite true.

Personally I think it probably is time the West moved away from charitable events for countries that have their own wealthy, celebrity and public who can support the less well off in their own communities. It's quite true that African countries don't need some white pensioner in the U.K. to donate £3 for a mosquito net. Maybe it's time to end the celebrity charity appeals.

One that should be ended immediately is this individual child sponsorship that's becoming so popular. That is a cause that should be discussed and addressed, but is largely ignored I think.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> One that should be ended immediately is this individual child sponsorship that's becoming so popular. That is a cause that should be discussed and addressed, but is largely ignored I think.


My mum n dad sponsored a child in Malawi over 30 yrs ago. They were devastated when the sponsorship had to end when she was 16, and, although there were others from the same village 'up for adoption' they were told that they couldn't choose there again, as it was not allowed.
At the time, one third of the donation went to the village as a whole and the rest to the child's family, they could send present boxes 4 times a year, but had to be school items(pencils, pads, crayons etc) and only one small toy for the child.
My parents could exchange pictures and letters with the village and family, which would be translated by the aid workers
Now I look back on it with a good deal of cynicism, did the child exist, did the money get to them etc etc
my parents thought they were doing a good thing, their children had grown and flown and, having grown up during the war, they wanted to help a child who didn't have a welfare state, NHS, clean drinking water on tap (that ones still being rammed down our throats), no agencies to make sure they were clothed, fed and looked after who still had fighting going on around them etc
Did they think they were superior ? Not a jot, they merely wanted to share their love and wealth, with those who had nothing (remember this was the days just after the horrors of Biafra and famine far worse than seen before or since)
What appalled me the most though, that amongst the countries they could choose, was the most wealthy country in the world, children, black and white, where starving on the streets of america, in situations as bad as any other third world countries
So, nothing new, just a recycling of something from days of not so long ago

I personally stopped giving to any country outside of our own (and I'm very picky about them too) when I found out how much aid was stored by the respective governments, how much wealth there actually was in the countries themselves and how many governments kept their 'poor and hungry' deliberately like that, so as to get even more monetary aid.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> With the utmost respect, it's not really coming across that way.
> 
> This is the internet. I have no idea who you are, you have no idea who I am. I try to be careful and not make assumptions about the people I'm posting with - for example, I could assume from the vehmence of your responses that you are black and have personal experience of being constantly belittled by whites, but the reality is I have no idea whether you are white, black, asian or The Little Green Man with Zoom Zoom in tow. I also have no idea of any of your background, or how you reached your current opinions, but I could assume anything from it being the reality of daily life to reading the Daily Fail. If I wade in with assumptions, I only make myself look an idiot, especially when I'm inevitably wrong about things.
> 
> ...


I don't feel that your comments on the way I post is an accurate reflection but it's the written word so there will always be misunderstandings.

I'm actually amazed people can't see it. White people in the UK have always had a warped impression of people from the continent of Africa and finally, we have the opportunity to understand things from a different perspective because people are speaking out. But David Lammy (who can inherently understand this topic from a better informed perspective than white people) is lambasted, called 'jumped up', his opinions dismissed and he gets accused of 'bullying' Stacey Dooley.

Eta he has also been accused of his views having a negative affect on Comic Relief's donations this year, which is ridiculous.

I don't understand why we can't bring ourselves to just listen to David Lammy and respect where his views might come from, and why they, because of his race, are formed from different experiences to that of a white person? Maybe consider that Stacey Dooley, a wealthy British white woman is not a victim in all of this?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> Personally I think it probably is time the West moved away from charitable events for countries that have their own wealthy, celebrity and public who can support the less well off in their own communities. It's quite true that African countries don't need some white pensioner in the U.K. to donate £3 for a mosquito net. Maybe it's time to end the celebrity charity appeals.


 Refugees in Africa and other countries still need urgent support. There is an appeal by UNHCR in the Observer telling the heart breaking story of of a young girl's experience when her village was attacked in South Sudan , There are 170,000 refugee children from countries like Sudan , Myanmar , Venezuela in their camps. They are desperate for shelter and food etc , they have nothing .


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Of course she's a victim. She'll be forever linked to the white saviour row for working for comic relief. You think it'll do her career any good? Like it's not difficult enough for a woman with her background and accent. An easy target. The girl was brought up in Luton by her mother, her Irish immigrant father left them when she was 2. She left school at 15. What's wealthy white woman about that? Lammy picked on the wrong person to make his point imo., but he is known for it.

There are plenty of wealthy people in these countries who know more about what's needed and where than we do. I'm sorry, but maybe it's time to let them get on with it and stop interfering. Genuine trade and anti corruption dealings are probably going to do more good in the long run, than donating to causes.

https://www.africanews.com/2019/06/...ackle-africa-s-hunger-and-poverty-challenges/


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> Of course she's a victim. She'll be forever linked to the white saviour row for working for comic relief. You think it'll do her career any good? Like it's not difficult enough for a woman with her background and accent. An easy target. The girl was brought up in Luton by her mother, her Irish immigrant father left them when she was 2. She left school at 15. What's wealthy white woman about that? Lammy picked on the wrong person to make his point imo., but he is known for it.


 I didnt know her back ground. She has done well to get where she is and as you say , an easy target.
She was called privileged in this thread simply because she's a reporter but I consider myself privileged because I can afford a donation .


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I didnt know her back ground. She has done well to get where she is and as you say , an easy target.
> She was called privileged in this thread simply because she's a reporter but I consider myself privileged because I can afford a donation .


I haven't called her privileged just because she's a reporter. There is an inherent privilege associated with being a) white and b) a westerner. Its actually not about her background or upbringing, or the fact that she's from Luton which someone else mentioned, which is quite a bizarre thing to mention!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I can sympathise with Stacey Dooley as we are both white women who come from poor, single parent backgrounds, left school at 15 and have accents (hers is Luton). I was pointing out the position she started from. She doesn’t have wealth to fall back on if Lammy’s comments have damaged her (unusual) career and I don’t think she deserved it. 

A fat cat politician singling her out to make his point was imo uncalled for. He’s in a position of privilege, power and responsibility and I think he could have made his point without attacking an individual who has done nothing wrong and may very well suffer because of it. I was arguing against the point that she’s not a victim, as a “wealthy British white woman” and thus undeserving of our concern. I disagree. 

She will be tainted by this and of course is likely to lose work because of it, when it’s hard enough for someone like her who will be discriminated against anyway, because she’s a woman and talks with a ‘thicko’ accent that people have already been quite cruel about. It will be constantly referred to and make it quite difficult for her I expect.

Comic relief have said they will no longer send anyone to Africa or use celebrities, so it had the desired result.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> A fat cat politician singling her out to make his point was imo uncalled for. He's in a position of privilege, power and responsibility


but he cant be any of that
hes black, after all
and
despite the fact that he was born in a western country, (Holloway UK) comes from a privileged background, with two, heterosexual, still living parents,
went to Harvard Law School (1997), SOAS School of Law, City, University of London, The Kings School, 
the very fact that hes black, makes him more in touch with people from the african continent ( cos people who are black only come from Africa after all :Banghead:Banghead )simply because of his blackness,
than a person whose been out there and lived the life, caught the diseases, and worked with said people, none of which he has, just because shes white

OMG! that means i should inherently speak both yiddish and German


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> but he cant be any of that
> hes black, after all
> and
> despite the fact that he was born in a western country, (Holloway UK) comes from a privileged background, with two, heterosexual, still living parents,
> ...


Okay. Earlier on in this thread you mentioned that your grandfather was a German Jew. So you know that your identity isn't about language. It's so much deeper than that.

I won't answer the points you raise as I find them quite troubling but I will, once again, recommend the book "Why I am no longer talking to white people about race" by Reni Eddo-Lodge. I know I have mentioned it before but I really feel that it would challenge your opinions, in a healthy way.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Okay. Earlier on in this thread you mentioned that your grandfather was a German Jew. So you know that your identity isn't about language. It's so much deeper than that.
> 
> I won't answer the points you raise as I find them quite troubling but I will, once again, recommend the book "Why I am no longer talking to white people about race" by Reni Eddo-Lodge. I know I have mentioned it before but I really feel that it would challenge your opinions, in a healthy way.


GREAT grandfather, please (again you missed the blatant sarcasm )

As for the rest of your post, its quite troubling in that you repeatedly assume I NEED to read this book, that you feel you know more about my opinions and needs than i do and that you need to repeatedly tell me so

to be honest, I feel you are making your objective to bully me into being like you, closed minded to anything other than your way being the right way
I find your constant whining on about how you need to challenge and change my thoughts quite disturbing and very unhealthy, and that you have made this personal, you v me, that youve almost become evangelic in your pursuit of saving me, rather than what its actually about


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> GREAT grandfather, please (again you missed the blatant sarcasm )
> 
> As for the rest of your post, its quite troubling in that you repeatedly assume I NEED to read this book, that you feel you know more about my opinions and needs than i do and that you need to repeatedly tell me so
> 
> ...


Erm...

I'm responding to what you post, not you personally.

Also, some of us can't read or interpret sarcasm too well.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Okay. Earlier on in this thread you mentioned that your grandfather was a German Jew. So you know that your identity isn't about language. It's so much deeper than that.


I'd just like to add, MY identity is just that, MINE
I am a product of self, influenced by parents, upbringing, education and society, not my history. 
My great grandfather being a German Jew, doesn't define ME, it merely means that, that part of my history, exists, in truth, but it does not influence my thinking, nor my thinking/opinions of others, they do that for themselves far to well, on there own, without bringing their antecedents into it too

The world would be such a better place if we all just saw people, not race creed or colour. People that can do nothing about things their ancestors chose to do, or not do, but just going along making the best of their lot and being kind to one another

Yeah I know, blue sky thinking!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> A bit OT but does anyone watch Blackish on E 4 freeview


 No; I never heard of that one.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

*This ''white saviour'' was idolised for her humanitarian work as far as I remember. And her son, Harry, is constantly praised for ''following in her footsteps''.*


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Calvine said:


> *This white saviour was idolised for her humanitarian work as far as I remember. And her son, Harry, is constantly praised for ''following in her footsteps''.*


No one could dispute the incredible achievements of the Halo Trust which has cleared well over a million land mines. And its profile is in part thanks to Princess Diana who raised awareness back in the 1990s. But the imagery, including what you've posted above belongs in the 90s too. The image says white saviour and it's outdated.

Check out the Halo Trust's website. You'll see no pictures of grinning white celebrities clutching Black babies. There's not even any pictures of Prince Harry.

https://www.halotrust.org/prince-harry-supports-landmine-clearance-for-conservation/


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Prince Harry is the first picture on the page you link?

Don’t you think it’s wrong to hide people who are putting in effort, because they’re the wrong colour? I think it’s a shame if people who want to help others are criticised and turned away because of their race.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Prince Harry is the first picture on the page you link?


On the mobile site, there's no picture. There's a news article. Why not look through the rest of the website too?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> On the mobile site, there's no picture. There's a news article. Why not look through the rest of the website too?


On my iPad the first picture I see is one of Prince Harry, so your point about their not using pictures of white people including Prince Harry is incorrect. I'm not interested in royalty and it's not a charity I support, so I have no need to read further.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> On my iPad the first picture I see is one of Prince Harry, so your point about their not using pictures of white people including Prince Harry is incorrect.


It's not incorrect. Look through the rest of the website at the imagery.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> *This ''white saviour'' was idolised for her humanitarian work as far as I remember. And her son, Harry, is constantly praised for ''following in her footsteps''.*


She also cuddled an Aids baby in Brazil and that had an amazing affect on peoples attitude towards Aids . Imagine if she h adnt because of political correctness.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> It's not incorrect. Look through the rest of the website at the imagery.


There is a picture of Prince Harry, it's the first image on their main page. Of course your point is incorrect.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> On my iPad the first picture I see is one of Prince Harry, so your point about their not using pictures of white people including Prince Harry is incorrect. I'm not interested in royalty and it's not a charity I support, so I have no need to read further.


Theres is indeed one of him wearing a vest thing but not cuddling black children on the front page and a pop up which says

*Prince Harry Supports Landmine Clearance for Conservation*
*On Monday 17th June, Prince Harry will join HALO, representatives of the Angolan government, conservation experts and philanthropists from across the world to discuss how clearing landmines from the unique Okavango headwaters in Angola is the first step to protecting this precious habitat.*

*Clearing a path to a brighter future*


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> There is a picture of Prince Harry, it's the first image on their main page. Of course your point is incorrect.


On the mobile site there's simply a news article. The website is an example of how white saviour imagery has moved on. My point is not about pictures of white people, it's the overall message an image portrays that's so important here.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> She also cuddled an Aids baby in Brazil and that had an amazing affect on peoples attitude towards Aids .


And shook hands with AIDS patients when people thought it might be contagious.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Elles said:


> so I have no need to read further.


And you have no need of someone telling you what you should and should not be doing or reading.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> And shook hands with AIDS patients when people thought it might be contagious.


Yes , I believe she gave him a hug but that doesnt count because he was white 

Its a great shame to see people playing down her part with land mines. If you were around at the time , you would have been aware of the world attention but obviously young people now arent aware of that.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> he was white


 Well, that's a huge weight off our shoulders then.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Interestingly , on Twitter , lots of mention of the UK and Imperialist past but never any mention of the part other European countries played in the colonisation of Africa . Some young people are clueless about it yet quick to jump on Briitsh white people .

I wonder how those countries , eg France, Germany , Belgium , Netherlands etc handle their appeals and if they get accused of Imperialism and white saviour.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> No one could dispute the incredible achievements of the Halo Trust which has cleared well over a million land mines. And its profile is in part thanks to Princess Diana who raised awareness back in the 1990s. But the imagery, including what you've posted above belongs in the 90s too. The image says white saviour and it's outdated.
> 
> Check out the Halo Trust's website. You'll see no pictures of grinning white celebrities clutching Black babies. There's not even any pictures of Prince Harry.
> 
> https://www.halotrust.org/prince-harry-supports-landmine-clearance-for-conservation/


But WHO knew about the HALO trust, before those iconic pictures of her walking in the minefield?
A handful of people, compared to those the morning that the pictures hit the headlines
White saviour-ism or clever marketing?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Well, that's a huge weight off our shoulders then.


:Hilarious Phew !

Just thought of Meghan , I wonder what they would say if she helps Harry with his work in Africa. That would be difficult is she cuddles black children what would they say , Its ok because , she;s half black or its not all right because she;s half white ?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Introduction to the Halo Trust narrated by Angelina Jolie? Video about elephants with images of white and black people working together, the main person in the vid from what I can tell being an eccentric looking white South African? Big pic of Prince Harry on the first page. The whole site implies that only white people can save the elephants. Look at the importance and imagery of the black Africans in comparison to how the whites are portrayed on it. I’d say it’s doing what the comic relief report was unfairly accused of doing.

If the only problem is white folk hugging black children, then you’re right, I didn’t find any people hugging children.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Phew !
> 
> Just thought of Meghan , I wonder what they would say if she helps Harry with his work in Africa. That would be difficult is she cuddles black children what would they say , Its ok because , she;s half black or its not all right because she;s half white ?


What a dilemma, @kimthecat. This will keep me awake for years to come!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> No one could dispute the incredible achievements of the Halo Trust which has cleared well over a million land mines.


Yet they are a UK charity founded by privileged, wealthy white british
Surely, if that doesn't trigger your white saviour-ism, then all you've written is for naught


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> Yet they are a UK charity founded by privileged, wealthy white british
> Surely, if that doesn't trigger your white saviour-ism, then all you've written is for naught


It seems that history will be re written soon , Any achievements by white british people will be airbrushed and ignored.

This is the link . perhaps Bearcub should read it
https://www.halotrust.org/about-us/our-history/


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Its fair enough that people want change and hopefully that will happen but this bullying manner and comments on social media about white people is causing divides , setting back "race relations " years. There is terrible disgusting racism out there and we should be fighting it together , regardless of race.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> It seems that history will be re written soon , Any achievements by white british people will be airbrushed and ignored.
> 
> This is the link . perhaps Bearcub should read it
> https://www.halotrust.org/about-us/our-history/


Things have moved on. History doesn't need to be rewritten but white people don't need all of the credit anymore.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Things have moved on. History doesn't need to be rewritten but white people don't need all of the credit anymore.


yes , they don't need all the credit now but you are under playing it or ignoring it.
yes , things have moved on yet you're still banging on about Imperialism .
It seems you pick and chose what you want to remember and what suits your purpose and when inaccurracies are pointed out to you , you go into denial and/ or insist you are right .

You want to talk but talk is a two way thing and you dont listen , you lecture.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> Introduction to the Halo Trust narrated by Angelina Jolie? Video about elephants with images of white and black people working together, the main person in the vid from what I can tell being an eccentric looking white South African? Big pic of Prince Harry on the first page. The whole site implies that only white people can save the elephants. Look at the importance and imagery of the black Africans in comparison to how the whites are portrayed on it. I'd say it's doing what the comic relief report was unfairly accused of doing.
> 
> If the only problem is white folk hugging black children, then you're right, I didn't find any people hugging children.


Spot on !


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm not in the UK and definitely not on twitter so I'm not seeing the 'bullying' going on.

My take:
Is the 'white man as savior' a thing? Oh yes, absolutely. And we need to be able to talk about it, understand it more deeply, and really process it without being completely dismissed because it makes some of us uncomfortable. Discomfort is where growth comes from, and there is always room for growth.

However, there is a way to address the white savior thing while _also_ being respectful of the genuine humanitarian efforts of westerners of all races and colors. Completely dismissing those efforts because of the race or nationality of the person helping is just as wrong IMO.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Good points Ouesi, Thanks for your imput. 

I live in a mixed race area so I don't tend to notice peoples race or colour. I don't go down the street thinking There's an Asian woman or there's a black guy every day . The only time Ive noticed race is when I've been on holiday and it felt strange and then I realised it was because everyone was white


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> Good points Ouesi, Thanks for your imput.
> 
> I live in a mixed race area so I don't tend to notice peoples race or colour. I don't go down the street thinking There's an Asian woman or there's a black guy every day . The only time Ive noticed race is when I've been on holiday and it felt strange and then I realised it was because everyone was white


I worked for charities in South Africa for several years, the last one being a project providing care and support to the thousands of HIV sufferers in the Kwa-Zulu Natal rural communites. Most of the funding we received came from the UK, German and American Governments, Rotary International and large business both local and overseas.

I can assure you in my experience at least in the late 90's, the last thing on the mind of a recipient who was HIV positive was where the money to help them had come from or whether or not the donor regarded themselves as being "white saviours".. As for me even though mine was often the only white face - and despite being the same nationality as their former colonial masters, I was never discriminated against, it was just accepted that like everyone else I was doing my job!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> yes , they don't need all the credit now but you are under playing it or ignoring it.
> yes , things have moved on yet you're still banging on about Imperialism .
> It seems you pick and chose what you want to remember and what suits your purpose and when inaccurracies are pointed out to you , you go into denial and/ or insist you are right .
> 
> You want to talk but talk is a two way thing and you dont listen , you lecture.


Some people get up in the morning wondering what they can disagree with. I worked with one; it was tiresome.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> I worked for charities in South Africa for several years, the last one being a project providing care and support to the thousands of HIV sufferers in the Kwa-Zulu Natal rural communites. Most of the funding we received came from the UK, German and American Governments, Rotary International and large business both local and overseas.
> 
> I can assure you in my experience at least in the late 90's, the last thing on the mind of a recipient who was HIV positive was where the money to help them had come from or whether or not the donor regarded themselves as being "white saviours".. As for me even though mine was often the only white face - and despite being the same nationality as their former colonial masters, I was never discriminated against, it was just accepted that like everyone else I was doing my job!


What an interesting life you have led.  have you written your autobiography?

My American cousin went to Africa in the 70s to malawi and he was a head teacher at a school . His daughter was born there and she spoke swahili , she was the only white child in the school . They went back to America in her teens and it was totally strange and alien to her. She put up some old photos of her at school with a friend on facebook recently and she calls him her brother as they were very close,


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> They went back to America in her teens and it was totally strange and alien to her.


I had a similar experience, but in Central America, not Africa. Raised overseas, came to America in my teens, and felt like a stranger though both my parents are American. I imagine it was even stranger for my mom as she left the US in the late 50's and didn't return permanently until the late 80's.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I had a similar experience, but in Central America, not Africa. Raised overseas, came to America in my teens, and felt like a stranger though both my parents are American. I imagine it was even stranger for my mom as she left the US in the late 50's and didn't return permanently until the late 80's.


Did you have happy memories of your time in Central American?

How different peoples lives can be , I still live on the same estate I was born on, Ive known people here since childhood . I suppose there was no reason to move , loads of greenbelt land , close to the Tube and generally jobs locally ,though like other areas ,we were hit at times by recession.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> Did you have happy memories of your time in Central American?


Oh yes! I used to regret not having any 'roots' but now I see how much I benefited from our nomad life and getting to live with such a diversity of peoples.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

A short recording of Reni talking about her book.
Briefly , she saying white people shut her down when she tries to talk about racism .
She explain the racisms they suffer about jobs etc and Stephen Lawrence , this is racism and Im really sure that no one on this forum is saying this is ok or denying it.
She also complains , that she finds it annoying when white people are reluctant to say Black in describing people for fear of causing offence and I find that annoying , because white people are trying hard and words change along the years . It seems to be damned if you do , damned if you dont.
Racism exists on both sides , discrimination does happen against white people from black and asian people ( though obviously not to the same extent )and also Black and Asian people discriminate against each other.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

*An example of some of the abuse directed at Stacy . The asterisks are mine. *

*Sam*‏ @*Murphy1Sam* Jun 12

*Stacey Dooley* is a f*****g cretin anyway


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

This is a great Ted Talk on the dangers of a 'single story' of Africa


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Tut !

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-urging-people-to-vote-for-him-a6922576.html

The Labour MP David Lammy has been fined £5,000 by the Information Commissioner for instigating 35,629 nuisance calls over two days urging people to back his campaign to be London Mayor.

The calls, which played a recorded message urging people to back David Lammy's campaign, were placed over just two days last August.

Information Commissioner Christopher Graham found Mr Lammy broke privacy rules because he did not have permission to contact the individuals.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Tut !
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-urging-people-to-vote-for-him-a6922576.html
> 
> ...


Do you feel this story has a bearing on David Lammy's views about Comic Relief?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Do you feel this story has a bearing on David Lammy's views about Comic Relief?


No . I'm just tutting about it , which is why I put the word " tut "at the top . Why are you asking?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bearcub said:


> This is a great Ted Talk on the dangers of a 'single story' of Africa


I enjoyed that, thank you for sharing  
Her explanation of power struck me for sure. Not an exact quote, but close: "Power is the ability not only to tell someone else's story but to make it the definitive story of that person." So very true. And definitely relevant in this conversation. We are so easily inclined to embrace that single story narrative. I love her analogy with her book vs. American Psycho. We can read a book about a serial killer and not assume all American men are serial killers. But we read a book about a Nigerian spousal abuser and assume that's how all Nigerian men are. What a great example.

The child's mind is interesting too. We too had live-in help as was the custom. A mayan woman and her two children, an older daughter who went to university and was only home periodically, and a much younger son who was only a little older than me and my sister. Us kids all spent a great deal of time together, playing, helping his mom in the kitchen (more like getting underfoot, but we thought we were helpful). I remember when he got mumps and had to have his head bandaged to hold the heavy lymph nodes. We played monopoly. In my child's mind our maid was not a 'maid', she was our head of household LOL! She was the one who told my mom what to do - how to cook, what to do when we got sick, how to heal our cuts and scrapes, what to tell the gardener, that it was okay to eat the skin of the mango. It almost made my mom look childlike, there was so much she didn't know by comparison. I minded her more than my own mom. Not out of fear of repercussions but simply because she was in my eyes the one in charge. And frankly she was kinder to me and more involved than my own mom too but that's a whole 'nother story.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> No . I'm just tutting about it , which is why I put the word " tut "at the top . Why are you asking?


Unsure why you posted it. I can't see the relevance in this context.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Unsure why you posted it. I can't see the relevance in this context.


Oh I see . Does it matter ?


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I enjoyed that, thank you for sharing
> Her explanation of power struck me for sure. Not an exact quote, but close: "Power is the ability not only to tell someone else's story but to make it the definitive story of that person." So very true. And definitely relevant in this conversation. We are so easily inclined to embrace that single story narrative. I love her analogy with her book vs. American Psycho. We can read a book about a serial killer and not assume all American men are serial killers. But we read a book about a Nigerian spousal abuser and assume that's how all Nigerian men are. What a great example.
> 
> The child's mind is interesting too. We too had live-in help as was the custom. A mayan woman and her two children, an older daughter who went to university and was only home periodically, and a much younger son who was only a little older than me and my sister. Us kids all spent a great deal of time together, playing, helping his mom in the kitchen (more like getting underfoot, but we thought we were helpful). I remember when he got mumps and had to have his head bandaged to hold the heavy lymph nodes. We played monopoly. In my child's mind our maid was not a 'maid', she was our head of household LOL! She was the one who told my mom what to do - how to cook, what to do when we got sick, how to heal our cuts and scrapes, what to tell the gardener, that it was okay to eat the skin of the mango. It almost made my mom look childlike, there was so much she didn't know by comparison. I minded her more than my own mom. Not out of fear of repercussions but simply because she was in my eyes the one in charge. And frankly she was kinder to me and more involved than my own mom too but that's a whole 'nother story.


You likely have come across it before but her Ted Talk "We Should All Be Feminists" is worth a watch too.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bearcub said:


> You likely have come across it before but her Ted Talk "We Should All Be Feminists" is worth a watch too.


Yes, I've seen that one before. She's a wonderful speaker


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

The dangers of a single story Africa , yes it is single story . Africa is a continent . In all this hoo haa about Africa , none of the Arab countries apart from North Sudan have been mentioned . Its as if they dont exist or belong.

Does Africa only belong to black people ?


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> The dangers of a single story Africa , yes it is single story . Africa is a continent . In all this hoo haa about Africa , none of the Arab countries have been mentioned . Its as if they dont exist or belong.


Exactly. Which is why the narrative must be challenged.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Exactly. Which is why the narrative must be challenged.


But black people are excluding the Arab race. Ive not read anything on Social media from black people that ever mentions the Arabs in Africa.

AFAIR Every post on here has been about black people so if you are that well informed why didn't you include Arabs ?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

David Lammy fund raising , making up for the funds he caused Comic relief to lose? Not on your Nelly .

"We need to raise as much money as possible for next years all-out city elections in 2020 (and who knows when there may be another general election!). For this reason, we are on the hunt for auction prizes and donations for our raffle. So please get in touch if you have anything you can offer! "

Its not racist though , they have Thai , Chinese and Indian food


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> But black people are excluding the Arab race. Ive not read anything on Social media from black people that ever mentions the Arabs in Africa.
> 
> AFAIR Every post on here has been about black people so if you are that well informed why didn't you include Arabs ?


I wouldn't include citizens of MENA countries when talking about the issues associated with Comic Relief because Comic Relief has been traditionally linked with sub-saharan African countries. It is the images of (for example) poverty stricken, helpless Ugandans, Ghanaians, Kenyans that I have grown up with that for years I allowed to inform my view of what Africa looked like.

To a large extent, Algeria, Morroco, Egypt and some other North African countries have a separate narrative because they haven't been portrayed so one-dimensionally, or because media coverage has been basically non-existent.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Do you think the discussion is about David Lammy’s view on comic relief?

It’s been more about a politician unfairly singling out a young woman to make a point imo. A point that is more far reaching than just comic relief. I get the point he was making, he doesn’t like white celebs going to Africa on money raising missions and thinks it reflects badly on black Africans. 

However he called an individual a white saviour and criticised her personally, entirely based on her race, even worse, knowing nothing about her and without even seeing the section of the programme. Unfair and unnecessary and he was called out on it.

It seems you don’t agree and that we should give him a free pass because of old colonialism and racism and Stacey’s prior experience is totally irrelevant because she’s a white woman.

A few charities moved away from celebrities and more about the communities and success, water aid for one. I see Jeremy Irons is back on tv doing appeals. It seems it’s just not successful. Telling people how successful and happy the communities are doesn’t make people donate money and at the end of the day the charity and those benefitting need it or they wouldn’t be asking. Does it really matter what the white middle aged woman donating the £3 a month thinks Africa is like? Does it actually make any difference to a British politician?

I personally donate to Prince Fluffy Kareem in Egypt, rather than something as big as comic relief.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Does it really matter what the white middle aged woman donating the £3 a month thinks Africa is like? Does it actually make any difference to a British politician?


Equality will always matter.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Equality will always matter.


Lost me.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> I wouldn't include citizens of MENA countries when talking about the issues associated with Comic Relief because Comic Relief has been traditionally linked with sub-saharan African countries. It is the images of (for example) poverty stricken, helpless Ugandans, Ghanaians, Kenyans that I have grown up with that for years I allowed to inform my view of what Africa looked like.
> 
> To a large extent, Algeria, Morroco, Egypt and some other North African countries have a separate narrative because they haven't been portrayed so one-dimensionally, or because media coverage has been basically non-existent.


Isn't Sudan associated with Comic Relief or did that changed when they split?
They certainly have been mentioned in the media , there's been conflicts and wars , refugees , dreadful terrorists attacks . These are former colonies too .
My point is that black people in the UK tend to think of Africa as black , as if the top part of Africa doesn't belong.

If people blame the press for their view of Africa then that shows their lack of education . Do schools not cover Africa in geography any more ?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> I personally donate to Prince Fluffy Kareem in Egypt, rather than something as big as comic relief.


 I thought you were joking. But I checked it out , those poor horses 

I find this unbelievable and incredibly stupid . This white woman who has obviously never been hungry expecting black children to starve for a principle.

 *Titania McGrath*‏ @*TitaniaMcGrath* Jun 12

Even though this decision means that Comic Relief won't raise as much money, I'm convinced that destitute Africans would much rather starve than perpetuate negative racial stereotypes.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> David Lammy fund raising , making up for the funds he caused Comic relief to lose? Not on your Nelly .
> 
> "We need to raise as much money as possible for next years all-out city elections in 2020 (and who knows when there may be another general election!). For this reason, we are on the hunt for auction prizes and donations for our raffle. So please get in touch if you have anything you can offer! "
> 
> Its not racist though , they have Thai , Chinese and Indian food


 Sounds like a fun evening.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Well worth watching IMO .......

https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/se...e-past/p06xtt69?playlist=a-question-of-ethics


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I find this unbelievable and incredibly stupid . This white woman who has obviously never been hungry expecting black children to starve for a principle.
> 
> *Titania McGrath*‏ @*TitaniaMcGrath* Jun 12
> 
> Even though this decision means that Comic Relief won't raise as much money, I'm convinced that destitute Africans would much rather starve than perpetuate negative racial stereotypes.


? It's a facetious joke and Titania McGrath isn't real. If you put a rolleyes  at the end of it.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

An idea of the sort of films Comic Relief could be showing.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Before the watershed? And that will really save the children from mosquitos and educate schoolchildren in the U.K. about malaria.

I only watched the first 5 seconds, it isn’t suitable for children.

Ok I watched a bit more, it’s aids specific. I’m not sure why comic relief would be showing films like that one, if they haven’t done anything about aids. 

I presume your point is that we should be watching successful Africans demonstrating what they can do and being asked for money to support their endeavours, rather than British journalists travelling there to interview them. Fair enough. I don’t have a problem with it, why would I. 

I have a problem with people in positions of power in this country singling out individuals and attacking them using emotive and insulting language.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Before the watershed? And that will really save the children from mosquitos and educate schoolchildren in the U.K. about malaria.
> 
> I only watched the first 5 seconds, it isn't suitable for children.


Are _you_ a child?


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Are _you_ a child?


Are you a black person?

I wouldn't want my young daughter's first impression of women in Africa to be an image of one holding up a dildo and talking about aids. Ymmv


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Elles said:


> an image of one holding up a dildo


 Thank you, @Elles, for posting what everyone was thinking!!:Hilarious:Hilarious Is it allowed to post such photos on this ''family friendly'' forum?


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Are you a black person?
> 
> I wouldn't want my young daughter's first impression of women in Africa to be an image of one holding up a dildo and talking about aids. Ymmv


Nothing wrong with holding up a dildo. Secondly, she is talking about her achievement of becoming a peer educator.

Why are you asking if I'm black? The answer is no, I'm white.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Thank you, @Elles, for posting what everyone was thinking!!:Hilarious:Hilarious Is it allowed to post such photos on this ''family friendly'' forum?


I have faith that only a select few will be thinking whatever it is you're thinking.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think it’s obvious that I’m not a child, unless my name is Sheldon. And yes there is imo. I do have a problem with an image on petforums of a black African woman holding a dildo, with no context other than it should be on comic ‘relief’. If this becomes a meme. 

You think it inappropriate to show an image of a white woman holding a black child, unless the child is hers I presume, but it’s ok to show an image of a black woman holding a dildo. Personally I think you could have found something better to make your point. 

I agree with the point that it doesn’t need celebrities to travel to Africa to interview successful Africans working in the various sectors supported by the charity, my argument is purely against David Lammy’s attack on Stacey Dooley and the emotive and insulting language used by a politician. I think it is divisive and unhelpful at best.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

bearcub said:


> I have faith that only a select few will be thinking whatever it is you're thinking.


 You have absolutely NO idea what I am thinking, so how can you be optimistic enough to ''have faith that only a few will be thinking the same''? I doubt they will tell you. I had you on ignore for ages as you derailed a thread I was following, your posts being argumentative for the sake of it. So you're on ignore again now.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Calvine said:


> You have absolutely NO idea what I am thinking, so how can you be optimistic enough to ''have faith that only a few will be thinking the same''? I doubt they will tell you. I had you on ignore for ages as you derailed a thread I was following, your posts being argumentative for the sake of it. So you're on ignore again now.


I think I know what you're thinking lol. Probably the same as me once I got over the shock of seeing something I never in a million years expected to see on petforums.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> I think I know what you're thinking lol. Probably the same as me once I got over the shock of seeing something I never in a million years expected to see on petforums.


Clearly you've never had the pleasure of participating in the "dog toy or sex toy" threads inspired by The Dog Snobs  
https://thedogsnobs.wordpress.com/category/sex-toy-or-dog-toy/


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Clearly you've never had the pleasure of participating in the "dog toy or sex toy" threads inspired by The Dog Snobs
> https://thedogsnobs.wordpress.com/category/sex-toy-or-dog-toy/


No, I haven't, though I presume the context was there.

I didn't expect to be faced by an image of a grinning black woman holding up a wooden dildo in a thread about racism and comic relief. I think it has to be the wrong image to use given the context of the thread. If others don't think so, then that's up to you.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Clearly you've never had the pleasure of participating in the "dog toy or sex toy" threads inspired by The Dog Snobs
> https://thedogsnobs.wordpress.com/category/sex-toy-or-dog-toy/


They are sooooo funny, especially where they compare "sticks" and "tug" toys


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> No, I haven't, though I presume the context was there.
> 
> I didn't expect to be faced by an image of a grinning black woman holding up a wooden dildo in a thread about racism and comic relief. I think it has to be the wrong image to use given the context of the thread. If others don't think so, then that's up to you.


Interesting that our society can watch images of starving, dying children with no issue, but a woman talking openly about sexual health and the work she does is too much.

Did you listen to her when she spoke about the dildo?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> ? It's a facetious joke and Titania McGrath isn't real. If you put a rolleyes  at the end of it.


https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath

I took it to be real .


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Tut !
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-urging-people-to-vote-for-him-a6922576.html
> 
> ...





bearcub said:


> Unsure why you posted it. I can't see the relevance in this context.


Perhaps, it goes to show just what a sly self serving, slug this person actually is. The fact that not only does he court publicity by denegrating a photograph of a white girl (who happens to be a 'personality') holding a black child
But
He feels he is also above the law when it comes to him self aggrandising

Tbf the above shows he's no better than an PPI, or insurance nuisance caller

Edit due to phone deciding which word I actually wanted to use!


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I’m expected to watch the film before I decide, not just base my opinion on one image? I’m not permitted to find an image offensive in the context it’s been posted? 

You think society watches film of children dying and not take issue. 

So explain to me why society donates millions of pounds to assist said children. Why people give freely of their time and expertise. Why people demonstrate and fight against corrupt politicians and governments. 

I can see that we’ll not agree and it’s pointless arguing.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> This is a great Ted Talk on the dangers of a 'single story' of Africa


Extremely interesting and thank you for posting it
But
It does go to highlight the fact that you, yourself, have a single story, when it comes to seeing white saviours and, imperialistic jingoism, everywhere, in regards to white peoples interactions to and with black people

Edit because
Had to go back and finish writing due to phone dropping out


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath
> 
> I took it to be real .


Nope and the post was sarcastic and facetious.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titania_McGrath


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath
> 
> I took it to be real .


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titania_McGrath


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Snap :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titania_McGrath


oh Goodness, just shows how careful you have to be!


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> oh Goodness, just shows how careful you have to be!


Doesn't it just
I was in the 'real' camp too


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Interesting that our society can watch images of starving, dying children with no issue, but a woman talking openly about sexual health and the work she does is too much.
> 
> Did you listen to her when she spoke about the dildo?


Are there photos of dying children on this thread? I understood Elles wasn't expecting to see the dildo on a pet forum .


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> Perhaps, it goes to show just what a sly self serving, slug this person actually is. The fact that not only does he court publicity by denervating a photograph of a white girl (who happens to be a 'personality') holding a black child
> But
> He feels he is also above the law when it comes to him self aggrandising
> 
> Tbf the above shows he's no better than an PPI, or insurance nuisance caller


At least there is some satisfaction to be had knowing that it cost him £4000 (£5000 if he was tardy with his payment).


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Calvine said:


> At least there is some satisfaction to be had knowing that it cost him £4000 (£5000 if he was tardy with his payment).


Could we look forward to seeing him on an episode of
Can't pay? We'll take it away!


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> I'm expected to watch the film before I decide, not just base my opinion on one image? I'm not permitted to find an image offensive in the context it's been posted?
> 
> You think society watches film of children dying and not take issue.
> 
> ...


You found a wooden object described as a dildo that is used to educate young people about condoms offensive? And before you say 'there could be children looking',
A) sex education is not offensive
B) wooden objects are not offensive


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> A) sex education is not offensive
> B) wooden objects are not offensive


A) Go tell that to the protesters in Birmingham

B) I'm sure we could ALL find wooden objects we find offensive

Single story thinking AGAIN!


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> A) Go tell that to the protesters in Birmingham
> 
> B) I'm sure we could ALL find wooden objects we find offensive
> 
> Single story thinking AGAIN!


I'm guessing though you find the Birmingham protests as upsetting as I do.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> I'm guessing though you find the Birmingham protests as upsetting as I do.


Of course I do, AGE APPROPRIATE sex education and i stress that wholeheartedly, should start from early years, preferably by parental input, but, if not, then schools are obliged to
because
There's no such thing as age appropriate sexual abuse
And children need to be educated to protect themselves
But
Its your blanket, thought police, statements I have problems with on this thread


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Of course I do, AGE APPROPRIATE sex education and i stress that wholeheartedly, should start from early years, preferably by parental input, but, if not, then schools are obliged to
> because
> There's no such thing as age appropriate sexual abuse
> And children need to be educated to protect themselves
> ...


I don't myself see that any statements I have made have been in that vein. This is just the way I write.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> Could we look forward to seeing him on an episode of
> Can't pay? We'll take it away!


:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

bearcub said:


> Interesting that our society can watch images of starving, dying children with no issue, but a woman talking openly about sexual health and the work she does is too much.
> 
> Did you listen to her when she spoke about the dildo?


If only the solution to eradicating HIVAIDS in Africa were as simple as showing people how to put on a condom:Finger

You've obviously never been to Africa nor have you any experience of working for a charity trying to help disadvantaged people infected with the HIV virus

I have - admittedly though when the HIV pandemic was at it's very worst

Can you imagine what it was like to work in a hospital where 100 people a day (all black) were diagnosed as being HIV postive?

Where 95% of the babies born in the hospital were born infected and to walk through the children's ward was heartbreaking knowing every toddler was dying from AIDS.

So many people dying every day the morgues and graveyards were full to overflowing nad every day another half dozen funerals to attend,

By contrast the villages were deserted apart from a few grannies who because all their daughters and sons had died from the infection were left to care for up to a dozen young grandchilren on a pitiful pension

Note the stark contrast between the vidoe you posted to the one below


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> You found a wooden object described as a dildo that is used to educate young people about condoms offensive? And before you say 'there could be children looking',
> A) sex education is not offensive
> B) wooden objects are not offensive


I find an image of a woman holding what is clearly a phallus more offensive than an image of a woman holding a child. Unless we watch the video we don't know what it's about, but I'm not in the habit of clicking play on videos of women holding dildos, hence I don't agree that it's a more appropriate image for comic relief and I don't think it would generally encourage people to send money. I could be wrong, it's just an opinion. It would certainly provoke some controversy and I don't think it would all be pleasant.

I get your point, but just as I believe David Lammy used the wrong person and language to make his point (and suspect his motives) I believe you've chosen the wrong image to make yours. You may hope that people aren't thinking what they could be, but what if they are?

Strange that you think because I didn't like it, I'm unconcerned about totally unrelated images of starving, dying children. 

@Magyarmum 's video and experiences


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> If only the solution to eradicating HIVAIDS in Africa were as simple as showing people how to put on a condom:Finger
> 
> You've obviously never been to Africa nor have you any experience of working for a charity trying to help disadvantaged people infected with the HIV virus
> 
> ...


I have been to Africa. No I haven't worked for a charity that helps HIV positive people in Africa. I'm not qualified to do so.

Thanks for posting the video, it's actually very similar in tone to the one I posted. Another great example of exceptional work being done, without compromising the dignity of anyone.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> I find an image of a woman holding what is clearly a phallus more offensive than an image of a woman holding a child. Unless we watch the video we don't know what it's about, but I'm not in the habit of clicking play on videos of women holding dildos, hence I don't agree that it's a more appropriate image for comic relief and I don't think it would generally encourage people to send money. I could be wrong, it's just an opinion. It would certainly provoke some controversy and I don't think it would all be pleasant.
> 
> I get your point, but just as I believe David Lammy used the wrong person and language to make his point (and suspect his motives) I believe you've chosen the wrong image to make yours. You may hope that people aren't thinking what they could be, but what if they are?
> 
> ...


Elles, the video I posted is highly regarded and won an award for its non-stereotypical message.

https://www.radiaid.com/


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> I don't myself see that any statements I have made have been in that vein. This is just the way I write.


Its easy to make blanket statements and we should be careful , we don't want it to become White people do this and black people do that because it would be stereotyping . No, not all white people do this , not all black people do that .
We are all individuals .


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Elles, the video I posted is highly regarded and won an award for its non-stereotypical message.
> 
> https://www.radiaid.com/


I don't care. I wouldn't watch it unless it was explained to me prior what it's about and even then I wouldn't watch it, because what for? We can't all get involved in everything and I think the image on it is deliberately provocative. Stereotypical in a different way, using women and sex to make an impact and get attention, even if for a good cause.

However the video Magyarmum posted I did watch. I find it horrific that so many people are infected and the work being undertaken is admirable and needs more than just local involvement if we want everyone to have access to medicines, health care and education globally, which I'm sure we all do. I don't think comic relief can go far wrong if that is the example that inspires them to do better.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> I don't care. I wouldn't watch it unless it was explained to me prior what it's about and even then I wouldn't watch it, because what for? We can't all get involved in everything and I think the image on it is deliberately provocative. Stereotypical in a different way, using women and sex to make an impact and get attention, even if for a good cause.
> 
> However the video Magyarmum posted I did watch. I find it horrific that so many people are infected and the work being undertaken is admirable and needs more than just local involvement if we want everyone to have access to medicines, health care and education globally, which I'm sure we all do. I don't think comic relief can go far wrong if that is the example that inspires them to do better.


This is a programme that enables young people to work with other young people living with HIV/AIDS or at risk of becoming HIV positive. It's not about dildos, it's about modern, progressive sex education. Its work includes engagement with children from the 10-14 age group who are sexually active.

The lady in the video is talking about her work as a peer educator. She talks about when she was diagnosed as HIV positive, she worried she would never be able to have sex or have a family. She talks about how the work she did has brought a new positivity to her life.

Nothing about this is offensive or provocative. It's real life.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> This is a programme that enables young people to work with other young people living with HIV/AIDS or at risk of becoming HIV positive. It's not about dildos, it's about modern, progressive sex education. Its work includes engagement with children from the 10-14 age group who are sexually active.
> 
> The lady in the video is talking about her work as a peer educator. She talks about when she was diagnosed as HIV positive, she worried she would never be able to have sex or have a family. She talks about how the work she did has brought a new positivity to her life.
> 
> Nothing about this is offensive or provocative. It's real life.


so because you find nothing offensive in it, everyone must feel this way

Interested to know where you visited in Africa, its a flipping big place comprised of many countries
sunning oneself on a SA beach or being on safari, ( not that im assuming thats what you did, hence the question)
is very different from working in
refugee camps,
with victims of HIV,
trying to educate people regarding FGM,
encouraging the education of females,
digging latrines and wells,
volunteering in outbreaks of cholera, ebola,
stopping HIV patients trying to rape babies and young girls because they believe virginal blood will cure them, helping albino Africans survive, with all their limbs, rather than become victims of those who supply 'witch doctors', and yes, even handing out mosquito nets etc

which obviously many of those who have commented on this thread have done


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> so because you find nothing offensive in it, everyone must feel this way
> 
> Interested to know where you visited in Africa, its a flipping big place comprosed of many countries
> sunning oneself on a SA beach or being on safari, ( not that im assuming thats what you did, hence the question)
> ...


I've not done any of the things you listed. I'm not qualified to provide the sort of assistance that would be necessary in most of the situations you describe and I'd be less helpful building a latrine or well than most people, lol.

It's odd making it competitive. It's shouldn't be. Personally, I'm proud of what I've done so far with a music charity and an LGBT charity. I could definitely do more though. I've visited five African countries, two on holiday, three for other reasons.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> I've not done any of the things you listed. I'm not qualified to provide the sort of assistance that would be necessary in most of the situations you describe and I'd be less helpful building a latrine or well than most people, lol.
> 
> It's odd making it competitive. It's shouldn't be. Personally, I'm proud of what I've done so far with a music charity and an LGBT charity. I could definitely do more though. I've visited five African countries, two on holiday, three for other reasons.


its not about making it competitive
its about the difference between those who go and do,and,those who sit and lecture those who go and do,about why the things they go and do is wrong and makes them saviours,
rather than kind hearted and thinking about their fellow man, before,a lot of the time,themselves

As for whether one is equipped or not, I know we are talking about comic relief and the whole debacle, but to derail for one moment, there is plenty to volunteer to do in ones own community............
sit and talk to dementia sufferers
shop for someone
mow someones grass
read to someone who is partially sighted
take someone out for a drive
join the befrienders and help a person with poor mental health
and thats just a teeny fraction
lots and lots to do, and you know what, none of its about black and white, its about people
which,
to go full circle,
is what comic relief was in the first place, people who needed help, people who could give a few quid, out of compassion, because they couldnt physically help, to get the help to where it was needed
Also
Lets not forget amongst all this white saviour-ism, CR has raised and put over 50% of the £1bn raised since 1985, into UK charities, or is it still white saviour-ism to help addicts, disabled, disadvantaged, FGM, gender parity, etc in our own country too, because you know what, some of them may be black too!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> its not about making it competitive
> its about the difference between those who go and do,and,those who sit and lecture those who go and do,about why the things they go and do is wrong and makes them saviours,
> rather than kind hearted and thinking about their fellow man, before,a lot of the time,themselves
> 
> ...


You really have missed the point.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> You really have missed the point.


I dont think i have
but
please feel free to tell me, just as youve told many others, how to think


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> I dont think i have
> but
> please feel free to tell me, just as youve told many others, how to think


Having an opposing view does not equate to telling others how to think. That is your interpretation. Not once have I told you or others how to think on this or any other thread.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Having an opposing view does not equate to telling others how to think. That is your interpretation. Not once have I told you or others how to think on this or any other thread.


Im pretty sure @Elles for one might disagree with that
and a few others along the way

but thats neither here nor there
I asked you to tell me just where you think ive missed the point and exactly what point you think it is, after all ive said many things from stacey dooley, through the slug MP ( i refuse to give him even more of an ego boost by writing his name)through sarcasm,not knowing the difference between a real something and a spoof something, to being supportive and vocal about those who do versus those who lecture
I await......


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Im pretty sure @Elles for one might disagree with that
> and a few others along the way
> 
> but thats neither here nor there
> ...


Okay. The point your post demonstrates you have missed is that 'doing something' isn't always doing good. Particularly if it strips someone of agency. This isn't a reflection on anyone on this thread who has worked in a voluntary capacity in Africa.

Stacey Dooley's picture, to the minds of many, many people, has done more harm than good. It has, yet again, infantilised African people and portrayed Africa as helpless and homogenous, somewhere where only hunger and suffering prevail. A people who sit and wait for a white celebrity to visit them and alleviate their suffering for a moment? This image at best, patronises citizens of African countries and at worst, dehumanises them. The stereotype is tired and white people (on the whole) need to listen to the other side of the story. You may not have wanted to hear it from David Lammy, and you certainly don't want to hear it from some random in a pet forum, but it's out there. Go and listen.

Someone else on this thread said something along the lines of 'if my child was dying, I wouldn't care who helped me'/I'd do anything to get them fed'. Isn't this the very reason why we, in an enormous position of power, should do all we can to ensure that the autonomy and dignity of the people who we raise money for can never be compromised by us?


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead

gives up! 
i try to meet you halfway and agree that somethings that you say and have posted, i even derail and give you so,e suggestions on things to help others, when you say you think there could be more you could do
but
you wont even do that

i quit, you win, you become only the second only person on my ignore list


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> :Banghead:Banghead:Banghead
> 
> gives up!
> i try to meet you halfway and agree that somethings that you say and have posted, i even derail and give you so,e suggestions on things to help others, when you say you think there could be more you could do
> ...


What a strange reaction. The opinion I posted above is held by many and exists outside of petforums. Not sure why anyone would get so angry with this point of view.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> What a strange reaction. The opinion I posted above is held by many and exists outside of petforums. Not sure why anyone would get so angry with this point of view.


Perhaps because you said this .
<You may not have wanted to hear it from David Lammy, and you certainly don't want to hear it from some random in a pet forum, but it's out there. Go and listen. > 
You keep saying listen , read this , watch this . We have . We have given our opinions which you refuse to accept. You don't want to hear it from us.
You talk about white people patronising Africans , yet you are happy to patronise those who don't agree with you . 
Im sure its been agreed here that if people want change then change . What they are objecting to is the way it was done and the fact that less money is or possibly will be raised when it is badly needed.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> This image at best, patronises citizens of African countries and at worst, dehumanises them.


In what way does it dehumanise them ?



> Someone else on this thread said something along the lines of 'if my child was dying, I wouldn't care who helped me'/I'd do anything to get them fed'. Isn't this the very reason why we, in an enormous position of power, should do all we can to ensure that the autonomy and dignity of the people who we raise money for can never be compromised by us.


Are the recipients saying they are feel patronised and their dignity compromised etc .


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> He feels he is also above the law


I am quite surprised he wasn't removed from office (I think that is the term?) and you have to wonder just how bad their behaviour has to be to boot them out; maybe they actually have to be criminal.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> i quit, you win, you become only the second only person on my ignore list


Without you even mentioning a name, or tagging, I know who you are ignoring. In the end, you just throw up your hands in despair and admit defeat. It reminds me of the Popeye cartoons: ''I've had enough, Olive, cos I can't stands no more!'' I have three on my list now, and none are from the actual ''pet threads''.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> In what way does it dehumanise them ?
> 
> Are the recipients saying they are feel patronised and their dignity compromised etc .


It's the volunteers who feel that way these days.

Maybe comic relief could pay the tv licences that are being taken away from over 75 year olds.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

bearcub said:


> What a strange reaction. The opinion I posted above is held by many and exists outside of petforums. Not sure why anyone would get so angry with this point of view.


@kimthecat summarised things far more eloquently than I might have managed, but as you seem to be a fan of reading and research, might I suggest adding a copy of this to your summer reading list?










Yes, I am being serious, and I don't mean it as an insult either - it's honestly just a friendly suggestion.  You seem to be a passionate person and well intentioned; it would be worth your while to try and develop your comms skills to match


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Quite a lot of personal jibes and derogatory comments flying around here, closing now.
:Locktopic


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