# Chocolate or Cinnamon



## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

Hi

I’ve just acquired a 13 week old male siamese kitten. He’s registered as chocolate tabby point but I’m wondering if he could be cinnamon tabby point. Is there way to know for sure?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cinnamons (& fawns) are rare and very few breeders have them in their litters. 

Why do you think he might be cinnamon, and do you have a photo in good light? What are his parents registered as?

If you really wanted to be sure you could DNA test him, but he is probably exactly as registered.

We need photos!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

catgirlforever said:


> Hi
> I've just acquired a 13 week old male siamese kitten. He's registered as chocolate tabby point but I'm wondering if he could be cinnamon tabby point. Is there way to know for sure?


Can you tell us his parents' names and breed numbers?


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

Sire is GR CH Mafdet Mungo Gerry. (24b)
Dam is Adpixham Harry’s Party. (32 2)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I would be very surprised if your kitten is a cinnamon. Mafdet is a very well-known prefix and I don't think they have bred any cinnamon or fawn kittens.


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

Thank you for your reply


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Photos? Please?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Sometimes a chocolate carrying cinnamon can have a gingery tone.

His sire is pure Siamese with a CS pedigree so definitely does not carry cinnamon.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I have found out that Jakurtzzi the Apprentice is on one side of the pedigree of the dam. He is pure Siamese so no cinnamon there. Is he the dam's sire or grandsire? Unless the other side has cinnamon your boy is mot likely to be a cinnamon carrier.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OK I have a big pedigree database with a lot of cinnamon in as that's what I try to breed. Using that I've been able to construct an almost complete 10g pedigree for your kitten and there's not a whiff of cinnamon in it. Sorry.

Could we see a photo please? Pretty please?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

The most likely explanation for any gingery tones is the presence of the agouti gene which does tend to alter colours.


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)




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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

Please find here a copy of his pedigree. Apologies for the poor quality. 
Thanks to all those of you who have replied.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Very interesting pedigree but your pic looks chocolate to me with not even a hint of cinnamon. It is lucky his sire has been tested negative for PRA because Soshai Lenny on his dam's side is a carrier. The reference register number is because of the oriental smoke girl on the bottom line of the pedigree. We always used to assume that no silver lines would have cinnamon because it is a daft gene to bring in when trying to breed cinnamons but I know of another line coming down from Soshai Lenny which had cinnamon carriers from smoke girls so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there is cinnamon but since it has to be on both sides, you can be sure your boy is chocolate. (Possibly @OrientalSlave has a more recent database and could investigate the smoke girl just for me?)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

@QOTN I will contact you privately


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

catgirlforever said:


> View attachment 343200


Whichever- stunning kitty!


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

cheekyscrip said:


> Whichever- stunning kitty!


Thank you


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

@catgirlforever Just to let you know I have looked at your pedigree and there is actually a cinnamon carrier on the bottom line, Sabiha (I have Sabhia) Sanura but you cannot tell if the gene has been carried on from that point just by looking at the pedigree. Because your boy's sire is pure chocolate, it is academic anyway.


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

QOTN said:


> @catgirlforever Just to let you know I have looked at your pedigree and there is actually a cinnamon carrier on the bottom line, Sabiha (I have Sabhia) Sanura but you cannot tell if the gene has been carried on from that point just by looking at the pedigree. Because your boy's sire is pure chocolate, it is academic anyway.


Thank you very much for the info. So are you saying he could carry cinnamon or that it's impossible because of the sire?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

catgirlforever said:


> Thank you very much for the info. So are you saying he could carry cinnamon or that it's impossible because of the sire?


I am saying he could *carry* cinnamon but it is not possible to tell from the pedigree. He cannot *be* cinnamon because his sire is pure chocolate and the gene is recessive so must be inherited from both parents. It does not matter anyway, because he is a beautiful pet whatever he carries!


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

QOTN said:


> I am saying he could *carry* cinnamon but it is not possible to tell from the pedigree. He cannot *be* cinnamon because his sire is pure chocolate and the gene is recessive so must be inherited from both parents. It does not matter anyway, because he is a beautiful pet whatever he carries!


Thank you for your help. However, I actually own his sister as well whom I'm hoping to breed from so if there is a possibility of cinnamon I'd appreciate some advice re suitable studs if possible.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

catgirlforever said:


> I actually own his sister as well whom I'm hoping to breed from so if there is a possibility of cinnamon I'd appreciate some advice re suitable studs if possible.


Rather than all this guesswork, you should get a DNA test done which will tell you if she carries cinnamon or not. Because if she doesn't, you will not get cinnamon kittens from her regardless of what stud you use.
http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagn...ral-info-breeders/list-genetic-tests/cinnamon


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

catgirlforever said:


> Thank you for your help. However, I actually own his sister as well whom I'm hoping to breed from so if there is a possibility of cinnamon I'd appreciate some advice re suitable studs if possible.


If you want to breed cinnamon, you need to have a DNA test to establish if she carries the gene. Do you belong to a breed club which has a 20% discount on tests at Langford. (Ours does. Quick advertisement, www.tpspbcc.org.uk ) If you are not bothered about breeding cinnamon, you do not have to consider your stud carefully because there are not vast numbers of Siamese studs carrying cinnamon.

Frankly, if you want to breed from your girl you need to get a PRA test done anyway, since she could be a carrier and that could limit your choice of stud to those who have tested negative. There are two known carriers back on her dam's pedigree. Of course there could be many more. Your two cats are safe because their sire has been tested negative.

Is your girl on the Active Register?


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Is your girl on the Active Register?


Yes she is.


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

9














Hello again....So here we are 4 months later and kitty still hasn't developed into a pure chocolate ( in my opinion). Maybe it's just because his mums side is quite a mixed bag? I'm posting pics again to see what your opinions are now he's 7 months old. Thank you.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Chocolate tabby point.


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

But he’s so pale...


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Are his ears really a completely different colour compared to his tail? If you want to know for sure, just DNA test. You could also test for dilute especially if his dam was a 'funny ' colour blue tabby point.


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Are his ears really a completely different colour compared to his tail? If you want to know for sure, just DNA test. You could also test for dilute especially if his dam was a 'funny ' colour blue tabby point.


They are indeed... ears are reddy. Tail is an odd colour that I can't really explain. Mink is a word that springs to mind. Face defo has red tones.

I am about to embark on DNA tests. However... it's not a case of..... WHAT COLOUR IS HE....it's more a case of a starting point of what colour I think he is!! I'm sure this is some sort of caramel. Most likely lilac based but apparently there's no recongnised test.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

catgirlforever said:


> They are indeed... ears are reddy. Tail is an odd colour that I can't really explain. Mink is a word that springs to mind. Face defo has red tones.
> 
> I am about to embark on DNA tests. However... it's not a case of..... WHAT COLOUR IS HE....it's more a case of a starting point of what colour I think he is!! I'm sure this is some sort of caramel. Most likely lilac based but apparently there's no recongnised test.


If he has two dilute genes, he is not chocolate. There is no test for caramel because it has not yet been proved to exist!


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

I’m going ahead with the tests, but not sure what to test for. Am thinking... Maybe chocolate & dilute??


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

catgirlforever said:


> I'm going ahead with the tests, but not sure what to test for. Am thinking... Maybe chocolate & dilute??


He cannot be seal or blue because of his ears so, if you believe your pedigree, it is really only worth testing for dilute. He carries dilute anyway, from his dam but two dilute genes would give you the closest you can get to your diagnosis of caramel. I will pm you.


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## catgirlforever (Jan 12, 2018)

QOTN said:


> He cannot be seal or blue because of his ears so, if you believe your pedigree, it is really only worth testing for dilute. He carries dilute anyway, from his dam but two dilute genes would give you the closest you can get to your diagnosis of caramel. I will pm you.


Thank you!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

catgirlforever said:


> But he's so pale...


I was looking at his tail. His face is pale


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Out of interest as I know next to nothing about Siamese, is it possible to see a lot of variation (as can be the case with pointed BSH where some are a pale, warmish chocolate right through to a dark bitter chocolate sometimes mistaken for seal) in the shade of chocolate?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Out of interest as I know next to nothing about Siamese, is it possible to see a lot of variation (as can be the case with pointed BSH where some are a pale, warmish chocolate right through to a dark bitter chocolate sometimes mistaken for seal) in the shade of chocolate?


Yes. Sometimes the only way to distinguish a dark chocolate from seal is the colour of the paw pads. Many breeders now concentrate on extreme type so good colour is an inevitable casualty. Some judges remark on 'black and white' torties where the red is hardly visible and some of us think 'caramel and apricot' are manifestations of the same problem. There are other effects too. Some lines even have comparatively long, woolly coats. In the old days, breeders used to assess all aspects of a cat before using it for breeding not just how large and far down the side of its head its ears were located.


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## Lauren Jarvis (Oct 2, 2021)

QOTN said:


> Very interesting pedigree but your pic looks chocolate to me with not even a hint of cinnamon. It is lucky his sire has been tested negative for PRA because Soshai Lenny on his dam's side is a carrier. The reference register number is because of the oriental smoke girl on the bottom line of the pedigree. We always used to assume that no silver lines would have cinnamon because it is a daft gene to bring in when trying to breed cinnamons but I know of another line coming down from Soshai Lenny which had cinnamon carriers from smoke girls so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there is cinnamon but since it has to be on both sides, you can be sure your boy is chocolate. (Possibly @OrientalSlave has a more recent database and could investigate the smoke girl just for me?)


Hello,
I've just come across this reply looking up the sire to my kitten - Soshai Lenny. More than a little upset to know he could have PRA. Can you advise me on where I'd stand with a breeder regarding this matter please? Why would anyone breed from an animal carrying this gene?

Thanks,
Lauren


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lauren Jarvis said:


> Hello,
> I've just come across this reply looking up the sire to my kitten - Soshai Lenny. More than a little upset to know he could have PRA. Can you advise me on where I'd stand with a breeder regarding this matter please? Why would anyone breed from an animal carrying this gene?
> 
> Thanks,
> Lauren


PRA is recessive and carriers with just one copy of it are not affected. If we remove all carriers from breeding we lose genetic diversity which is very harmful. I breed and one of my girls how is a carrier, I make sure she only goes to negative studs and I test any of her kittens that will be used for breeding.

If you want certainty either way about your kitten you could DNA test him or her


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Lauren Jarvis said:


> Hello,
> I've just come across this reply looking up the sire to my kitten - Soshai Lenny. More than a little upset to know he could have PRA. Can you advise me on where I'd stand with a breeder regarding this matter please? Why would anyone breed from an animal carrying this gene?
> 
> Thanks,
> Lauren


As Oriental Slave has said, if the dam of your kitten is negative for the CEP290 mutation there is no danger of PRA. Ask the breeder for evidence of a negative test and if it is not forthcoming you could test your kitten yourself. I am quite surprised to hear your kitten's sire is Soshai Lenny. Very few studs are still working at his age so that at least is a recommendation since so many Siamese die young these days.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lauren Jarvis said:


> Hello,
> I've just come across this reply looking up the sire to my kitten - Soshai Lenny. More than a little upset to know he could have PRA. Can you advise me on where I'd stand with a breeder regarding this matter please? Why would anyone breed from an animal carrying this gene?
> 
> Thanks,
> Lauren


Hi Lauren

I've sent you a PM


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