# opinions on neutering



## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

i agree that neutering is good, but someone i was talking to was saying that every cat in the whole world should be neutered. but if we were to do that then cats would no longer exist because they would all die out.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Every cat that is not part of a responsible current breeding programme and who isnt unable to be neutered on medical grounds should, yes, be neutered.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Every cat that is not part of a responsible current breeding programme and who isnt unable to be neutered on medical grounds should, yes, be neutered.


i agree with that, all 5 of my cats are neutered. but this person was saying that even ones that are a part of responsible breeding programme should be neutered.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Sounds like a cat hater.

Liz


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

thats the thing i dont understand, they work at a cat rescue centre and they are a cat hater. it makes no sense at all does it?


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

Im in 2 minds on this as why is it ok for pedagree cats to breed ( as some of them do end up in shelters to ) but not ok for moggy cats ok i know lots are in homes but you do get lots of other animals in homes yes my 2 cats got pregnant wasnt planed it happened and i have homes for the kittens b4 they are even born .

but ive had several cats b4 these 2 and did get them done at 6 months old these are the first ever kittens that ive had born and i took these cats on as adults unwanted pets so bit of different situation ild never just let my cats get up the duff on perpose but im intrested in this debate as tbh when we have a house im intrested in mayb becaome a breeder of pedagree cats.

see ya if all cats were done their would be none left not everyone can affrod to get a pure bread at £300/£400 a kitten so ive been seeing on averts and i know of so many people that wnat kittens but cant find any the shelters can have some very strict rules which mean familys with small kids cant have a cat or kitten and most poepl that want 1 have kids ( thats the problem round hear anyway ) my god im ranting lol

is it not mayb acceptable for people to breed if their look after kittens properly find homes ect unlike the ones ive heard of lately that have just dumped kittens on the vets our local vets has 3 itters dumped on them last week 

dont get my rong as soon as my kittens have gone my girls are getting done their are several reasons they wernt done b4 which i have mentioned on different posts but my kittens will go vet cheaked wormed and even microchiped as i know of someone who comes to youre hosue to do this and she will do the lot for me 

and i know everyone says cats calling can be stressfull on a cat but womens time of the month can me stressfull dont mean were all going to run out and have it all taken away 

i just dont understand in all who nature (cats calling getting pregnant ) can be all bad 

please dont slate me just wanting to know all reasons behind it and debate hear everyones oppinions


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

ive seen a lot of people get the pedigree cats for the label of having pedigree cats and then dump them as they have not read up on how to care for them. recently at the rescue centre i work at they even had a sphinx cat come in!

but personally i have a love for rescue cats, not sure if i would ever get a pedigree because i like a breed and then i read up and they have so many breed defects that it just seems cruel


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

mine have all been rescued in 1 way or another my first 2 were from the animal welfare centre then these 2 were abandoned in a flat for 2 weeks and i got a message to say if they dont go today they will go to a centre so i took them they were like feral cats had worms fleas under weight so ive got them now into the most loveing cats you could ever want


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> ive seen a lot of people get the pedigree cats for the label of having pedigree cats and then dump them as they have not read up on how to care for them. recently at the rescue centre i work at they even had a sphinx cat come in!
> 
> but personally i have a love for rescue cats, not sure if i would ever get a pedigree because *i like a breed and then i read up and they have so many breed defects that it just seems cruel*


Go to a good breeder & you won't have these problems, its the backyard breeders who perpetuate hereditary diseases becuase they put profit over the welfare of their animals
Sadly our 'I want it now' society coupled with not doing the proper research means too many people are buying from the wrong kind of breeder


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

i find them the most rewarding because you have a chance to take away the pain they suffered beforehand and show them a very nice life. two of mine were just left in their owners house while they went away all the time, two were abandoned in a cardboard box and the other one was abandoned on the streets at 6 months old.

i dont think i could personally cope with kittens from my cats, so this is why i got them neutered. but if you have the time and can care for them and make sure that you are not breeding for the wrong reasons such as for money then why not breed them. but for the moment i feel that we should maybe keep the unneutered cats from breeding so that we can get a hold on amount that get abandoned, so that they all have loving homes. but this isnt just for cats it for dogs etc aswell


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I didnt say a pedigree breeding programme, I said a responsible breeding programme.

Not all pedigree breeding programmes are responsible.

However, I would say 99% of moggy pregnancies are irresponsible, with no health test, do dna tests, no aim, nothing. If someone could show me a responsible moggy pregnancy then that would be fine but I have yet to see one.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

i know plenty of cats in rescue centres that need homes. the kittens go in seconds, some of the older ones take months


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

mine wasnt planed i didnt get them done for the reason abouve i had so much more to focus on bringing their health up ect but 1 dashed out the door faster than you could see and the other i took another unwanted cat in he was male i had him booked in to be done but she called within 48hrs of getting him and then he escaped out a small top window the day he was due to be done BUT my vet has actualy said them egtting pregnant has made their condition alot better they have learnt to eat better and more and i have never ever seen a cat so contented as nala is with her babys also its given my children some education on nature as i allowed my son to watch the birth he was as good as gold sat their silent wated it all and he even saw me wrap the one that died up and took it down to berry with his dad it didnt upset him he just had lots of questions which we answered


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

chrissy1982 said:


> mine wasnt planed i didnt get them done for the reason abouve i had so much more to focus on bringing their health up ect but 1 dashed out the door faster than you could see and the other i took another unwanted cat in he was male i had him booked in to be done but she called within 48hrs of getting him and then he escaped out a small top window the day he was due to be done BUT my vet has actualy said them egtting pregnant has made their condition alot better they have learnt to eat better and more and i have never ever seen a cat so contented as nala is with her babys also its given my children some education on nature as i allowed my son to watch the birth he was as good as gold sat their silent wated it all and he even saw me wrap the one that died up and took it down to berry with his dad it didnt upset him he just had lots of questions which we answered


This isnt a thread about your cats and I want referring to your cats, however, I wouldnt describe either of these pregnancies as responsible.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

i think its good to educate children and if you do have the funds to afford the litters and can care for them its good. but when some people end up with a pregnant cat and have no money and then cant afford the vet bills they then end up abandoning them


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Go to a good breeder & you won't have these problems, its the backyard breeders who perpetuate hereditary diseases becuase they put profit over the welfare of their animals
> Sadly our 'I want it now' society coupled with not doing the proper research means too many people are buying from the wrong kind of breeder


thats exactly why im starting my research now coz its something that needs to be avoided and they should find a way to make sure other do know about the pet beforehand. maybe bring back the dog license but not just for dogs, for all pets as currently you could have 50 cats and no one would need to know.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> i think its good to educate children and if you do have the funds to afford the litters and can care for them its good. but when some people end up with a pregnant cat and have no money and then cant afford the vet bills they then end up abandoning them


Animals are not education tools. You can take them to a shelter or rescue a pregnant foster for that.

Anyway I can see why your friend feels the way she is, I do NOT think she is a cat hater, quite the opposite.

From working in shelters I am sure she is heartbroken each and every day and thinks why are people still breeding when these cats are being pts or languishing in shelters. I understand 100%.

I believe what she probably means is that all cats with responsible owners should be neutered. She knows that people won't get their cats neutered as they have better things to spend their money on. I imagine she is thinking why are people purposefully breeding when strays and cats whose owners dont care are breeding anyway. I can see her viewpoint, I do not agree as I think responsible breeders are important. However, I do not agree with people purposefully or accidently breeding moggies due to the views I imagine she holds.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

thats not how i ment it, yes its important to educate children on animals. but im not saying to have a litter so you can educate your cat because that is just stupid.

i would never have an unneutered animal as i know i could not afford the vet bills for an accidental litter. so i would always say if you are going to buy an animal you need to make sure you can afford to neuter it first as ive seen in my vets that you can be paying £200+ to get a bitch spay for your dog.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> thats not how i ment it, yes its important to educate children on animals. but im not saying to have a litter so you can educate your cat because that is just stupid.
> 
> i would never have an unneutered animal as i know i could not afford the vet bills for an accidental litter. so i would always say if you are going to buy an animal you need to make sure you can afford to neuter it first as ive seen in my vets that you can be paying £200+ to get a bitch spay for your dog.


I recently had a litter of foster kits and was 'charging' something like 27.50 for them (exact cost of their vaccinations) and people were not interested cos they wanted them free. I said they would have to pay for these vaccinations with a free kitten (and mine were cheaper in 'bulk') and they said 'ive had cats before and theyve never needed them'

So yeah, I imagine that same attitude is taken to neutering.


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

Thants youre oppinion glow worm and each to their own their are pros and cons to everthing 

I know im not a bad cat owner at all ive given up much time and money to give them the best care i canive even re homes my degus as i dont have the time for them like they need since the kittens comeing along 

BUT why is it ok to breed pegagree cats and not moggies thats my question and why ( this isnt haveing a go ) but what are the reason people want to breed pedagree cats ?? Money love for that breed the love of seeing kittens born is their a lack of these cats in the world and thats the reason they are Bread ??

I dont agree or disagree with anyone as i said i think each to their own i think its rong when people dont care for the kittens they dump them and as with any pet owning /car everyone has their own way of careing their own oppinions i find these debates very intresting and dont agree or disagree with any of it


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

thats just stupid, neutering and vaccinations are a vital! i would hate to think what vet bills would be without them giving them to their cats.

im so lucky that my cat has had his vaccinations because he has been in a fight and now has to be kept inside for a week because he has a big hole in the side of his head. there is no telling what stuff he could of got if he had not had his vaccinations


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

i think people want pedigree cats because they see it as a status symbol. its like oooo i have a sphynix or a ragdoll which i paid hundreds for. its the same with dogs, people wanna own staffies coz they think it makes them look hard.

if you are going to be responsible then good on you, i dont feel you should be had a go at as we need a lot more responsible cat breeding like yourself. as you seem like the person that would not dream of abandoning them and would give up everything to make sure they get the best care possible.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

chrissy1982 said:


> BUT why is it ok to breed pegagree cats and not moggies thats my question and why ( this isnt haveing a go ) but what are the reason people want to breed pedagree cats ?? Money love for that breed the love of seeing kittens born is their a lack of these cats in the world and thats the reason they are Bread ??


To better the breed, in my opinion, No breeders breed for money, if they do theyre in the wrong profession 

The owners of my kittens parents have a clear view on where they want to take their breed, I believe it is something to do with improving the quality of dilute smokes.

Responsible breeders do not make money. They do it for the love of the breed and their desire to better it.

Like I said, find me a moggy breeder who does all the relevant dna and health tests (health tests could be numerous) and raises their kittens to 12 weeks, vaccinates, etc, and I will change my opinion on moggy breeding. As I said, I have never seen a responsible litter of moggies.

People can raise litters of mogs after the fact, of course, I am not saying that, however, I have never seen a responsible moggy mating ---> to raising.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> i think people want pedigree cats because they see it as a status symbol. its like oooo i have a sphynix or a ragdoll which i paid hundreds for. its the same with dogs, people wanna own staffies coz they think it makes them look hard.


Don't know enough about dogs but pedigree cats are not just status symbols. Most people think I am mad for paying what I paid for my cats, and do not think I am cool because of it.

I wanted a kitten that had been properly raised, vaccinated, I could see both parents, I knew the health and genetics of both parents. I have a lifetime of advice from the breeders. I have some idea of possible temperament.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

chrissy1982 said:


> Thants youre oppinion glow worm and each to their own their are pros and cons to everthing
> 
> I know im not a bad cat owner at all ive given up much time and money to give them the best care i canive even re homes my degus as i dont have the time for them like they need since the kittens comeing along
> 
> ...


For a number of reasons- there are too many cats & not enough homes for them, for every kitten born that's the potential for someone to overlook a cat (or kittens- there's plent of kittens in rescue too!) languishing in rescue
Its a problem society faces, not just an individual & a reputable breeder will take their kits back if they need to in future, therefore rescue space isn't being taken up
Also there's the potential for STDs when your cat breeds with any old horny tom in the neighbourhood, as well as the fact, same with dogs, of heritable diseases being passed on. Being a 'moggy' doesn't guarantee 'hybrid vigour', although the myth is still widely perpetuated.


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

ok fair enuff that makes sence to me as i said mine were a mastake that wont be made againe as they will be done as soon as kittens gone my kittens will stay with me as long as they need to so if thats 12 weeks then 12 weeks it be.

Im chargeing £70 for my kittens youre probaly going OMG right now BUT they would have been vet cheaked twice as they have already been seen once ) wormed injections as they would have reached that age pluss microchipped as i have a lady that will do the full litters for me at my home. so it probaly barly covesr the cost im laying out at that price and the homes i already have agree to that price.

I have loved the experance of seeing my cats give birth and if i had the space ild LOVE to foster pregnat cats and kittens for a cat charity ect but i cant untill we move


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

i wouldnt say it was a ridiculous price as the rescue centre i work at charges about the same.

i would love to experience one of my own giving birth, but i know that for me it is not pracitcal as it cost a lot of money and also i would need to make sure they go to good homes as i would be very picky on where they go


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> i wouldnt say it was a ridiculous price as the rescue centre i work at charges about the same.
> 
> i would love to experience one of my own giving birth, but i know that for me it is not pracitcal as it cost a lot of money and also i would need to make sure they go to good homes as i would be very picky on where they go


Then the best thing you could do is foster a pregnant cat, many people don't bother to spay & dump their pets if they end up pregnant, you'd be doing a really good thing & giving a wonderful opportunity to disadvantaged kitties


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Then the best thing you could do is foster a pregnant cat, many people don't bother to spay & dump their pets if they end up pregnant, you'd be doing a really good thing & giving a wonderful opportunity to disadvantaged kitties


ive already told where i go that when im retired im gunna foster for them haha


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## maryrose1977 (Aug 7, 2011)

I allowed Rosie to have a second litter. Irresponsible probably yes.

My daughter had severe trauma in her life and last year when Rosie ran away and got pregnant we had a lovely time with the kittens. We raised them and planned on keeping 2 out of the 4 kittens. 

Then my daughter heard me on the phone to a friend whose dad had lost his beloved cat in a RTA a month earlier. Apparently he had stopped eating and going out and was so miserable. My daughter told me my friends dad could have Bob and Tiger. When they went to their new homes my daughter asked every day when the cats were coming home and she cried her little heart out when i said he is keeping them.

rosie had her 2nd and last litter 3 weeks ago. We are loving it and we have homes for 3 of the kittens but we decided against the home that wanted 2 kittens because they seemed weird. 
If we keep 4 kittens thats fine with us but they will all be getting snipped when the time comes. 

I should have said no to my daughter but the past trauma always makes me feel bad. She knows that this is the last litter and the way she helps looks after the kittens is amazing. At 7 years old she read up on rearing kittens, she wrote down the order of the kittens when they were born and distinguishing marks. 

We have looked into fostering mother cat and kittens but in Scarborough we have been told that we are too far away as the nearest RSPCA is in Leeds.
And we have a 3 year old son who is more like a 2 year old and have developemental issues therefore its not an option. 

We look after the stray cat that visits us from time to time and as soon as we can the neighbour and i will catch her and take her to the vets.

People always judge others and so be it if people judge me but i have never neglected an anaimal and all 4 of the last litter are with responsible people.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

in my future i would love to work with animals as a form of therapy for people as it has amazing effects.

its really good that your daughter is showing a keen interest in reading up on the cat and helping out as a lot of children just want the pet for the pet and are not willing to put in the hard work and read up.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2011)

I think Moggy breeding isn't ideal, as with most matings, you don't know who the father is, or what could have been passed onto the mother, therefore passed onto the kitten's. Atleast with Pedigrees they are meant to have all health checks etc done. My kitten's are being rehomed at 14weeks, but will be fully vaccinated, microchipped and spayed/neutered before going to the new homes which will be homechecked.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> *i think people want pedigree cats because they see it as a status symbol.* its like oooo i have a sphynix or a ragdoll which i paid hundreds for. its the same with dogs, people wanna own staffies coz they think it makes them look hard.
> 
> if you are going to be responsible then good on you, i dont feel you should be had a go at as we need a lot more responsible cat breeding like yourself. as you seem like the person that would not dream of abandoning them and would give up everything to make sure they get the best care possible.


I chose my 3 pedigree cats as they match my decor and soft furnishings. I couldn't guarantee that exact colour match with moggies


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## Lumboo (Mar 31, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> I chose my 3 pedigree cats as they match my decor and soft furnishings. I couldn't guarantee that exact colour match with moggies


Oh I agree with you there - I wanted ginger and tabby moggies and ended up with black and white fluffy ones. They are so bargain basement and last season.

My boys were neutered at just under 20 weeks (they had enough weight to do this). There have been enough riots in North London without my boys getting around with their posse crusin' for action. I now have my soft cuddlies who can't even remember what the extra weight 'back there' was about 

I have friends who have their girls spayed but think it is OK to leave their toms unneutered as it is 'someone else's problem'. I personally think this is really irresponsible too.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lumboo said:


> I have friends who have their girls spayed but think it is OK to leave their toms unneutered as it is 'someone else's problem'. I personally think this is really irresponsible too.


Oh it'll be their problem when the cats come back with wounds/diseases from fighting or other people, 'taking action' cos they are spraying their garden etc.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

*Sigh* I haven't got the energy right now to reply properly ...

You can not breed a litter of moggie kittens ethically and responsibly (the two go hand in hand). There are no accurate health tests out there for breeding moggies. Until there is or a closely monitored breeding program exists there wont ever be either.

Too many moggies in rescue, many being put to sleep even though healthy. Until that problem is eased, IMO there also no reason to breed a moggie. You're actually signing another cats death warrant by doing so.

It's the brutal truth, many won't like it. I accept that.

I also feel the same about people who let 'accidents' occur, then don't do anything about until it's too late. No matter what excuse you give for that, again by letting your cat continue with the pregnancy you are effectively signing the death warrant of some other poor cats in rescue.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Here's a question that's been rattling around in my head for quite some time. I'll preface this with the statement that this is an honest question---I really don't have any agenda. It's just something I don't know at all and would like answered. Aurelia has just stated, and I've seen it before, that there are no health tests for moggies. Does this mean that, if you had a MC for instance, there is an HCM test for MC's but there is a different HCM test for Ragdolls? In other words, are the tests breed specific, and not just disease/problem specific? 

What if you had a moggy and you opted to just have it and the other prospective cat parent tested for all the usual cat issues, like HCM or the one that starts with a P? Can you do that? Can you just order a barrage of tests on your cat, or does the vet/tester need to know what the breed is in order to get the correct test.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I believe what is meant is that if you were to health test a moggy, you would have to test it for absolutely EVERYTHING. Whereas with a pedigree there are certain things which are known as issues and are therefore tested to rule out and are therefore not present in most of the breed, (PKD, HCM etc)

As a moggy could be a mix of absolutely anything, you would have to test for everything, which would certainly not be cost efficient.

I think an illness is an illness so the test will not be breed specific, they are all just cats at the end of the day, but to health test a moggy you would probably be looking at thousands or pounds.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I would hate the day that Moggies became a rare breed of cats.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

dagny0823 said:


> Here's a question that's been rattling around in my head for quite some time. I'll preface this with the statement that this is an honest question---I really don't have any agenda. It's just something I don't know at all and would like answered. Aurelia has just stated, and I've seen it before, that there are no health tests for moggies. Does this mean that, if you had a MC for instance, there is an HCM test for MC's but there is a different HCM test for Ragdolls? In other words, are the tests breed specific, and not just disease/problem specific?
> 
> What if you had a moggy and you opted to just have it and the other prospective cat parent tested for all the usual cat issues, like HCM or the one that starts with a P? Can you do that? Can you just order a barrage of tests on your cat, or does the vet/tester need to know what the breed is in order to get the correct test.


You're correct in your thinking. The genes responsible for HCM (for instance) in different breeds are different. So you would have to test for each of those different genes ... but even then that wouldn't account for gene mutations, or indeed for the genes responsible in certain breeds that haven't been discovered yet (BSH for instance).

It really would take some close monitoring and testing to even have a chance of getting it half right when moggie breeding. It would cost a fortune and I don't see anyone wanting to do that.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I believe what is meant is that if you were to health test a moggy, you would have to test it for absolutely EVERYTHING. Whereas with a pedigree there are certain things which are known as issues and are therefore tested to rule out and are therefore not present in most of the breed, (PKD, HCM etc)
> 
> As a moggy could be a mix of absolutely anything, you would have to test for everything, which would certainly not be cost efficient.
> 
> I think an illness is an illness so the test will not be breed specific, they are all just cats at the end of the day, but to health test a moggy you would probably be looking at thousands or pounds.


At the risk of making myself (even more) unpopular, and speaking as a pedigree breeder of 19 years experience, any pedigree breeder who seriously thinks that pedigrees are healthier than moggies is frankly living in cloud cuckoo land. The chances of a randomly bred moggy inheriting two copies of a deleterious recessive gene is really very low, the gene pool is enormous (unless we are talking about cats on a farm where the farm is so big that outsiders don't come round) and the great majority of moggies are kept in much smaller numbers than many pedigree breeders regard as normal, which means the chances of contracting FIP are much lower and the chances of catching either type of cat flu are likewise much lower, as long as the vaccinations have been done of course.

Right now in my breeds there is a deleterious recessive gene with no test yet (though they are working on one) and the condition caused is cropping up in unexpected places, as you expect with a recessive gene. A friend of mine bought in two unrelated cats, unrelated to each other, unrelated to her own lines, and not even from the country she lives in. All was going well with beautiful kittens being produced until, you've guessed it, a few weeks ago that nasty gene showed up. She told the breeders of both cats, neither of whom wanted to know. But hey, that's OK, we all know pedigree cats are healthier than moggies.

So yes I do indeed think it is possible in theory to breed moggies ethically. it needs the following conditions to be fulfilled. The first is going to be the problem:

1. There is a shortage of cats available for adoption in the local area

2. The mother is fully vaccinated including against FeLV and these vaccinations are kept up to date.

3. The breeder is willing and able to spend the sort of money on vet fees that pedigree breeders expect to spend.

4. The kittens are kept until they are 12 weeks old and are only sold fully vaccinated.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

chrissy1982 said:


> BUT why is it ok to breed pegagree cats and not moggies thats my question and why ( this isnt haveing a go ) but what are the reason people want to breed pedagree cats ?? Money love for that breed the love of seeing kittens born is their a lack of these cats in the world and thats the reason they are Bread ??


In my case, love of the breed. I suspect most breeds are selling at a loss at the moment, I haven't dared calculate the loss I have made this year and I still have six kittens more than ready to leave with not a single buyer in sight.

Liz


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## Pheebs (Jun 8, 2011)

I love moggies, all my cats have been moggies and all my future cats will be moggies.

But.

ALL moggies and pedigrees should be neutered unless part of a licensed breeding programme. It should also be made much much more difficult to be a breeder of any type of animal. It should be illegal to sell kittens at under 12 weeks, and now that very early neutering is gaining ground, it should also be illegal to sell kittens that haven't been neutered.


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

ok thats intresting a friend of mine that has ragdolls she dont breed them they are show cats said most breeders have a wateing list must be just the ones she uses good luck in finding homes ild love a raggdoll or persian but cant afford one right now as they cost alot and i dont have that spare in 1 go but mayb when im older and kids have grown up


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## Pheebs (Jun 8, 2011)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I would hate the day that Moggies became a rare breed of cats.


I know what you mean, but it would be better for the moggies if they were.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

IMO you can't proove either way that moggies are or are not healthier than pedigrees.

Until there are extensive amounts of research done to 1. get accurate numbers of the moggie population 2. get accurate numbers of genetic illness in moggies (add to that a great lump of guessing how many will not ever see a vet) 3. Research is done on gene mutations in moggies ... well I just don't buy it.

For instance, *and these are made up figures*: Edit: Population figures taken from HERE to attempt some accuracy on numbers.

HCM deaths recorded in a 12 month period in:

Pedigree's with a population of 640,000 = 145 ... which is a 1 in 4413 cats
Moggies with a population of 7,360,000 = 1667 ... which is a 1 in 4413 cats

Probably as many as 130 of the 145 peds to die from HCM will be recorded, but moggies? More like 10% at best ... lets face it very few will get a PM done, so 166, which is 1 in 44337 cats. So it seems far far fewer moggies die from HCM.

There is such a huge number of moggies v's peds which means you will hear less frequently about genetic illness in moggies. Plus, like I say a large number of these cats will never see a vet ... At least with ped breeding the good breeders are trying to do something about illness and disease!


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2011)

lizward said:


> In my case, love of the breed. I suspect most breeds are selling at a loss at the moment, I haven't dared calculate the loss I have made this year and I still have six kittens more than ready to leave with not a single buyer in sight.
> 
> Liz


What cats is it you breed Liz?


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

ive been having a big problem with an unneutered male in my area. he is trying to take over my cats territory, but seeing as i have 4 males and a female they arent having any of it.

so im pretty sick of my cats coming home with wounds on their heads and scratches. ive just had to spend £50 on my cat due to it being attacked by this cat.it now has a big hole in the side of its head and need to be keep in a big cage indoors until it heals over. i think if you are not planning on breeding from them you should neuter them because its just going to cause unneeded stress for the cat and its neighbours


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## chrissy1982 (Jan 27, 2011)

I think when it comes to males people think Oh they cant give birth so not my problem and dont get them done as the girl whos haveing one of my kittens they are all males had no idea she wasnt going to bother till i told her ablout them spraying fighting getting lots of cats pregnant going missing for days at a time so now she is getting him done shes a good friend of mine so i know she will personaly i couldnt cope with a un nuttered male for the week i had timmy my house stank from his spraying he was booked in for the closest date the vets had avalable ( cheeoky boy escpaed on that morning out of a small top window he pushed it open it was first floor ) ive reported him to every vet animal shelter and RSPCA but 8 weeks later still no sign.
But yes alot of people dont get males done as they have the view of not my problem i wont have the kittens to deal with


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

chrissy1982 said:


> ok thats intresting a friend of mine that has ragdolls she dont breed them they are show cats said most breeders have a wateing list must be just the ones she uses good luck in finding homes ild love a raggdoll or persian but cant afford one right now as they cost alot and i dont have that spare in 1 go but mayb when im older and kids have grown up


Some breeds continue to be really popular even though lots of people are breeding them, the Bengal is the prime example. Perhaps some breeds are just better marketed.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

malibu said:


> What cats is it you breed Liz?


Burmese and Asians, but mainly Asians and they are the ones difficult to sell.

Liz


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## Puindoors (May 19, 2011)

the life expectancy of an entire tom allowed to roam is about 3 to 4 years at best. Death due to road accidents, fighting and getting infected wounds, plus contracting feline Aids and Luekemia account for the vast majority very early.

Responsible breeders keep their entire cats confined, to keep them safe from harm and disease and to make sure parantage can be assured. I can't see the average moggie breeder investing in outside stud accomodation to prevent disease transmision, both between parents and from mother to kittens.


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

If a Moggie mating met all the criteria Liz suggested then I dont have a problem with it but when searching after being turned down by rescues because I have a young child I couldn't find anyone like this. 

Pedigrees aren't just a status symbol, with a pedigree you have some idea of the characteristics and temprement of the breed which in my situation was a definiate positive because it helped me choose a breed that would be ok with children. And if you get a kitten from a typical moggie 'breeder' who gets rid at 6 weeks, no vaccs, no flea/worming treatments etc then you end up paying nearly what you would have for a ped anyway (the prices my vet charges anyway).


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2011)

lizward said:


> Burmese and Asians, but mainly Asians and they are the ones difficult to sell.
> 
> Liz


I've never heard of Asian cats, sorry!
Burmese are gorgeous


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

lizward said:


> Some breeds continue to be really popular even though lots of people are breeding them, the Bengal is the prime example. Perhaps some breeds are just better marketed.
> 
> Liz


Yeah, I think a lot of well known breeds owe their popularity to cat food packaging/films etc and some breeds like Bengals people are buying for looks rather than temprement I think and other breeds get overlooked.

I have a Somali and I have only known one other person (breeders excluded) who knew what he is. My friend breeds Ragdolls and Somalis and she always has a waiting list for the Ragdolls and no where near as many people interested in the Somalis


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I love Somalis, If I were starting again, Somalis woul;d certainly be on my short list.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

malibu said:


> I've never heard of Asian cats, sorry!
> Burmese are gorgeous


That's the whole irony of it - Asians are almost Burmese, most are well over 90% Burmese and look the same apart from the colours and patterns.

Liz


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

two things that i personally think is why cats should be neutered is:
1. if domestic cats were not neutered without surpervised breeding you are encouraging disease ie felv fiv etc
2. there is never going to be an occasion when all domestic cats are neutered due to ignorance, you can be sure of that


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> You're correct in your thinking. The genes responsible for HCM (for instance) in different breeds are different. So you would have to test for each of those different genes ... but even then that wouldn't account for gene mutations, or indeed for the genes responsible in certain breeds that haven't been discovered yet (BSH for instance).
> 
> It really would take some close monitoring and testing to even have a chance of getting it half right when moggie breeding. It would cost a fortune and I don't see anyone wanting to do that.


Aha! Okay, lots of things make more sense now. Thanks!


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

lizward said:


> I love Somalis, If I were starting again, Somalis woul;d certainly be on my short list.


Snap. If we do decide to branch out into another breed, it would definitely be the Somali. It's sad that they aren't more popular given how stunning they are.


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