# Hates her halti



## Jenny P (Apr 25, 2009)

My puppy is 6 months old and has been to puppy orientation since she was 8 weeks old. At 5 months old she moved out of puppy class into the field, to do proper training which is done with a halti. While in puppy classes only a collar was used. She HATES her halti, and I have tried and tried to get her used to it positively to no avail. Every other puppy in her group have given in to the halti, she's the only dog who turns herself into a rug, and I have to drag her along. It is simply a NO NO in her world! When I want to take her for a walk, as soon as she sees it she runs out onto the lawn and starts rubbing her muzzle on the grass, and refuses to come anywhere near me. When I do finally get the halti on her head, she sulks and immediately tries to paw it off and starts pushing her face along the ground. Getting her out for a walk is a nightmare. I have to keep distracting her to try to make her forget the darn thing. She does eventually walk with it on, but keeps pawing it off at intervals. I ignore her a pull her head up. After the walk when I take it off she goes absolutely crazy. rubbing her face all over everything, which makes me query whether she has a sensitive muzzle area, and the halti may set off some sort of irritation? Is this a possibility? She is a short haired dog, is allergic to grass and is on pheno barb as she is epileptic.
I don't want to be the only dog owner querying the use of a halti, as there are many many groups of trained dogs at our training classes, ALL wearing haltis.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Dante is like 8 years old now and STILL does that! i'd just ignore her. She cant get her way all the time.


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## Lucysmom (Feb 13, 2009)

I changed Jess to a dogmatic its much better as it dosnt cut into her face. and leave marks.
I have all three of my dogs on head collars as its easier for me to control them.
it just takes time patients and more time to get them used to it. 

Jessie gave in very quickley with the dogmatic but Dane is being a terror with his halti.
all he can do is stop and try and walk backwards so it becomes a battle of wills. I am wining he is getting better slowly.

they all are very obedient but jess being a husky will always pull which leads the others to do so too. sollution the haltis.

hope you little girl gets better soon my lucy sees the halti and comes running she knows she is going out them.

hugs

Rachel


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I see Haltis as a short-term solution to a behavioural problem, rather than a training tool.

They are supposed to be used to stop dogs from pulling, and ive not heard of a trainer actually using one as the basis of their training. What if someone has a breed on which you CANT use one? 

Does your dog actually pull? 

Id suggest speaking to the trainer. Dog trainers should know and use a variety of methods, as it isnt a case of one method suiting all dogs. Training should be fun, and not uncomfortable and/or distressing. 
If you have taught your puppy to walk to heel and walk on a loose lead, then there really is no need for a Halti.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Lucysmom said:


> I changed Jess to a dogmatic its much better as it dosnt cut into her face. and leave marks.
> I have all three of my dogs on head collars as its easier for me to control them.
> it just takes time patients and more time to get them used to it.
> 
> ...


I love Huskys  I think they are beautiful dogs - and i love their eyes! They look so dreamy! He he


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2009)

I think you should try another training school, I have never heard of anything more ridiculous than using Haltis in this way


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Why does the training school want to use them? In my opinion their training methods cannot be so good if they need to use these.

I have trained my 3 adult rescue dogs to walk to heel without ever resorting to these. I do not critize anybody for using them as each case is different, however for a training school to be using them.....


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Jenny P said:


> My puppy is 6 months old and has been to puppy orientation since she was 8 weeks old. At 5 months old she moved out of puppy class into the field, to do proper training which is done with a halti. While in puppy classes only a collar was used. She HATES her halti, and I have tried and tried to get her used to it positively to no avail. Every other puppy in her group have given in to the halti, she's the only dog who turns herself into a rug, and I have to drag her along. It is simply a NO NO in her world! When I want to take her for a walk, as soon as she sees it she runs out onto the lawn and starts rubbing her muzzle on the grass, and refuses to come anywhere near me. When I do finally get the halti on her head, she sulks and immediately tries to paw it off and starts pushing her face along the ground. Getting her out for a walk is a nightmare. I have to keep distracting her to try to make her forget the darn thing. She does eventually walk with it on, but keeps pawing it off at intervals. I ignore her a pull her head up. After the walk when I take it off she goes absolutely crazy. rubbing her face all over everything, which makes me query whether she has a sensitive muzzle area, and the halti may set off some sort of irritation? Is this a possibility? She is a short haired dog, is allergic to grass and is on pheno barb as she is epileptic.
> I don't want to be the only dog owner querying the use of a halti, as there are many many groups of trained dogs at our training classes, ALL wearing haltis.


We used a halti on our first pulling springer and he hated it, i was told to keep going with it as eventually he would get used to it, i did and he didnt.
He used to do the same as your dog trying to paw it off i used to just ignore him and kept walking. He was always good at recall and at the end of our walk sat where his lead was put on and wait for me, one day he just ran off i called him managed to get him back so changed the place where i stopped to put it on no probs as he wasnt expecting it but the next time we walked he wouldnt come back to me even during the walk i would shout him and he just ignored me thinking that was going to be the time or place i put him on the halti and lead, he was taking no chances, so i had to give up the halti as it was ruining all the recall training i had done.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

took ages to put one one my springer when i got it on he reared and pulled more than my horse! i binned it


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

christine c said:


> took ages to put one one my springer when i got it on he reared and pulled more than my horse! i binned it


Do you think our springers have been having words together they do things very similar. HA! HA!


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Do you think our springers have been having words together they do things very similar. HA! HA!


yep
ben's on the phone to your's most evening's


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

I personally don't like haltis and probably find them one of the more aversive of the training tools out there because it puts a lot of pressure on the dog's face, where there are a lots of nerves placed. A lot of people are also unaware of the risk of neck and spine damage that can occur when you use one, even when it's used correctly. I am very suspect of trainers who talk about them as a non-aversive, gentle tool, because in reality they aren't at all. 

I use plain old martingales on my dogs, IMO a training school should give you an option to use a range of tools or if you want to, none at all. 99% of dogs that I see "trained" on haltis can't walk on a loose leash when it's taken off which is another down side for me. 

The American dog trainer/behaviourist Susanne Clothier wrote a very interesting article on head collars, I highly recommend reading it. It explains very clearly the risk associated with using them and how they are not always used to communicate to the dog in the clearest way.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

christine c said:


> yep
> ben's on the phone to your's most evening's


HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!! love it:thumbup:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

smeagle said:


> I personally don't like haltis and probably find them one of the more aversive of the training tools out there because it puts a lot of pressure on the dog's face, where there are a lots of nerves placed. A lot of people are also unaware of the risk of neck and spine damage that can occur when you use one, even when it's used correctly. I am very suspect of trainers who talk about them as a non-aversive, gentle tool, because in reality they aren't at all.
> 
> I use plain old martingales on my dogs, IMO a training school should give you an option to use a range of tools or if you want to, none at all. 99% of dogs that I see "trained" on haltis can't walk on a loose leash when it's taken off which is another down side for me.
> 
> The American dog trainer/behaviourist Susanne Clothier wrote a very interesting article on head collars, I highly recommend reading it. It explains very clearly the risk associated with using them and how they are not always used to communicate to the dog in the clearest way.


Your comment about 99% of dogs cant walk on a loose leash, thats interesting i have said they never worked for mine as he disliked it so much, but you are right i know people that have used them for a long time, long enough for then to be effective if they were going to be and i have noticed when for whatever reason the dog hasnt had it on they dont walk any better than before, so its a case of they are only effective while being worn i.e stopping them from pulling rather than teaching them, do you agree is that what you mean?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm another one who isn't a fan of haltis, or harnesses for that matter, as an aid to teaching heelwork. If done properly the dog should understand where heel is, and not pull into anything, I use leather slip leads with mine, Tau is the worst because she tries to walk at a faster pace than me, and I've had to learn to be consistent to get her heelwork as it should be - the only reason her heelwork hasn't been the best is because I let her get away with pulling. I'm surprised to hear about a whole class of dogs wearing haltis? Any training I've ever been to its only ever been dogs that have had a developed problem that have worn haltis, not pups, and in fact its been positvely discouraged for the reason I'm about to ask - has she finished teething yet? Mine started and finished early because they were on raw food, but they can be a bit later on complete and wet foods, so if she is teething the halti may be irritating her gums, just a thought.

The best way to train heelwork that I've seen, is from very young pups, where they learn to stay close by your side off lead. Then when the lead is introduced the position is formalised, and perhaps a stop whistle introduced, the lead is incidental and they're not instantly straining to pull to the end of it, as they've already learnt to walk beside you. There are other ways of training heelwork, but that is the most natural.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Your comment about 99% of dogs cant walk on a loose leash, thats interesting i have said they never worked for mine as he disliked it so much, but you are right i know people that have used them for a long time, long enough for then to be effective if they were going to be and i have noticed when for whatever reason the dog hasnt had it on they dont walk any better than before, so its a case of they are only effective while being worn i.e stopping them from pulling rather than teaching them, do you agree is that what you mean?


Yep that's exactly what I mean - sometimes they are used as a bandaid rather than actually training the dog, head collars work by putting pressure on the dog's face even when they aren't pulling and generally send the dog into a submissive state. They differ from other training collars because for a lot of dogs, they are constantly aversive (i.e. uncomfortable from the moment they are wearing it, even when they aren't pulling) as opposed to collars that only correct the dog when you give the correction. So when the head collar comes off, the dogs almost always revert back to pulling as they go 'wait - that pressure on my face is no longer there, I can pull now!' - that's assuming the dog isn't one of those incredibly strong willed, driven dogs that learn how to pull on a head collar anyway.

That's another reason I won't use them - I like to have more control over when and how my dog gets a correction and I find that hard to do on a head collar, especially as some dogs find them a constant aversion so as long as they are wearing the head collar, even if they aren't pulling, they are still being corrected. I think training tools are really useful and I happily use them, but I never use them *in place* of a training program. I like martingales because on their own they won't stop a dog from pulling, so you do have to put the work in to training them, and I find them easy to 'wean' the dog off the collar as you can easily adjust them to work as a flat collar. This is ideal for me because I don't want to have to rely on a tool to walk my dogs.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The best way to train heelwork that I've seen, is from very young pups, where they learn to stay close by your side off lead. Then when the lead is introduced the position is formalised, and perhaps a stop whistle introduced, the lead is incidental and they're not instantly straining to pull to the end of it, as they've already learnt to walk beside you. There are other ways of training heelwork, but that is the most natural.


I see a difference between teaching a dog to heel and loose leash walking though - I don't care if my dogs walk in front of me on a walk, as long as they aren't pulling. However, heel position to me has to be very very accurate and the dog must be focused on me 110% - I might command my dog to heel on walk, but I wouldn't expect them to walk in heel position all the time.

I'd never use a training aid like a head collar or even a martingale to teach precision heel work, as you said, I begin teach the heel position without a leash or collar.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

You can achieve quite accurate heelwork teaching them to heel off lead before introducing the lead, but there are different styles. Indie was taught more obedience style heelwork, Tau has a gundog style because of the different training methods. Indie's shoulder will always be slap bang against your knee, and her attention is on you - Indie will walk backwards to heel. Tau has a more relaxed style, although she's better on the stop than Indie, she'll be looking forward which is what is required in gundog work, rather than up at me (doesn't mean she isn't paying attention, just that if anything falls she can mark it), and she would circle to get back to heel if I walked backwards. There are so many different variations to teach different things, and it just depends on what you need it for, if nothing other than walking with a loose lead, the gundog style is an easy and natural way to teach heelwork and more than accurate enough.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You can achieve quite accurate heelwork teaching them to heel off lead before introducing the lead, but there are different styles. Indie was taught more obedience style heelwork, Tau has a gundog style because of the different training methods. Indie's shoulder will always be slap bang against your knee, and her attention is on you - Indie will walk backwards to heel. Tau has a more relaxed style, although she's better on the stop than Indie, she'll be looking forward which is what is required in gundog work, rather than up at me (doesn't mean she isn't paying attention, just that if anything falls she can mark it), and she would circle to get back to heel if I walked backwards. There are so many different variations to teach different things, and it just depends on what you need it for, if nothing other than walking with a loose lead, the gundog style is an easy and natural way to teach heelwork and more than accurate enough.


I've never heard of 'gun dog style' heel work - is it more walking on a loose leash than the precision heel work that I train for obedience?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm chuckling to myself as that's what I call it to differentiate between that and obedience heelwork where the dog is wrapped round your knee joint. 

Its just the way that gundogs are taught to heel, if you've ever seen them working or at competition, then you'll see subtle differences, like the fact that they are looking forwards. Also, you can see the differences in that some of them will have had a bit more positional training so will be right in at the knee, others will be a step away and more forward than you'd see at obedience, but as long as it works for what they're doing that's the important thing.

The stop whistle is introduced at heel, and is used to ask the dog to sit to heel, and once you've got this, you can then introduce the stop whistle whilst they are sat a few yards away facing you, and start sending them left and right with arm and/or verbal signals. Its all done fairly close in at first, and once you've built in the basic controls then you introduce more distance.

Slightly off topic, but all interesting stuff.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm chuckling to myself as that's what I call it to differentiate between that and obedience heelwork where the dog is wrapped round your knee joint.
> 
> Its just the way that gundogs are taught to heel, if you've ever seen them working or at competition, then you'll see subtle differences, like the fact that they are looking forwards. Also, you can see the differences in that some of them will have had a bit more positional training so will be right in at the knee, others will be a step away and more forward than you'd see at obedience, but as long as it works for what they're doing that's the important thing.
> 
> ...


I alway's find your reply's most intresting and very helpful. your soooo right about the heel work:thumbup1:


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

Just to add, a gundog needs to see what is going on all around to be able to mark falls, so having them stuck rigidly to heal is sometimes a disadvantage.
As long as they don't break, their position can be a step or two infront or behind if the situation warrants


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

Thanks Sleeping Lion that's really interesting. 

So if you were to (for example) compete with a Gundog like a GR in an obedience trial, would you have to teach them two different styles of heelwork? One for gundog work and one for obedience trials?

We see a lot of gundogs in obedience trials here but they all heel the classic way.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I haven't ever trained a dog to do both myself, I failed miserably at heelwork with Tau until we started gundog training, which she loves; but I do know of others who have, and yes, they've taught a more formal heelwork for obedience when required, built on the method they teach the dog to heel for gundog work. 

It is something I refer back to and learnt when Indie was a pup that dogs do learn in context, so a dog will know when its out doing gundog work, or when its expected to be in close to do obedience style. 

Its a good job the dogs are so clever, I have no idea what I'd do otherwise!! I've said it before and I don't mind admitting it, there have been times I haven't marked where a dummy has fallen, and had to rely on Tau who has seen it and when sent will go straight out to it - I'm just ballast on the end of the lead


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