# that Alpha &*%$#@! from the amazing, incomparable, inconceivable, incendiary *&%$*!



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - Cesar Millan kicking dogs


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Bulldog tries aversion therapy on Cesar, why is he so slow to learn?

Nice piece of redirection Cesar!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't think I've ever been so mad at Cesar, ever (and that's saying something! ). Absolutely disgusting- him and the NatGeo editing team. The moment where he looked like he was going to kick the dog in the face...grrr


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

I've not seen Cesar, don't have the paid for Sky channels, but after what I've read about him I don't want to. I can't even click on the link because I know I would get very upset and sit here crying, I can't bear cruelty in any form. What is wrong with this man? Where is the love and the patience? Give respect and you gain respect.

I have seen Victoria Stillwell and like the way she works and have used a lot of her ideas while training Poppy.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

That's despicable. I know there will be people who come on here and say he's not kicking them hard (  ) and he's redirecting their attention (yeh directing their attention to make them think people are to be feared)....but the fact that that is shown on TV, people are going to try that themselves, with their steel-toed boots on :mad5: 
That is down and out revenge kicking, not punishment, just Cesar trying to be a big man when he clearly isn't :mad5:


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Was wondering when you'd post this after someone sent it to me to try and convince me he's evil, sorry still not convinced


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I could only stand half of it. What the hell was the little dog in the garage all about? He looked to me like he was just going to say hello and the idiot attacked him, not the other way round.

How can anybody let this barbarian anywhere near their dogs?

An as for the circling, bum down german shepherd............that behaviour is excitement, he declares. Looked like fear to me.:mad5:

Well, Terry, you know more about dog body language than I do. What is your opinion?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

*Politely raises hand* Please Miss, can I try to teach Cesar by kicking him in the groin? Pretty please? Or should I just shove a noose around his neck?

I honestly do not understand how any rational human being could watch that footage and still deny he abuses dogs in the name of training.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Maybe Millan is confusing Bulldog with Futbol and that's why he's kicking them.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Does that mean if a dog lover gets confused they can kick Milan is his *foot*balls?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> sent it to me to try and convince me he's evil, sorry still not convinced


Hopefully you are convinced that he gets bitten rather alot, there's plenty of clips around showing that.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> Was wondering when you'd post this after someone sent it to me to try and convince me he's evil, sorry still not convinced


Maybe not evil, just a complete idiot who's after money and is willing to put dog's safety at risk. I mean, come on, how many dogs do think he has 'saved' or 'fixed' after one training session of kicking and wrestling? That is something we would never find out.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Maybe not evil, just a complete idiot who's after money and is willing to put dog's safety at risk. I mean, come on, how many dogs do think he has 'saved' or 'fixed' after one training session of kicking and wrestling? That is something we would never find out.


Am I the only one who doesn't know why the little dog in the garage needed fixing at all? What was wrong with him? He came and put his paws on the man, no aggression, nothing, and he started hitting him. What is he trying to train him to do? be aggressive?:cryin:


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## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

when he kicked that retriever i wanted to crush his ****** underfoot.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

angelblue said:


> when he kicked that retriever i wanted to crush his ****** underfoot.


I didn't get that far, was too disgusted. The little dog in the garage really upset me and how anyone with half a brain cell could say that shepherd was excited, is off their trolley!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Thats the first footage that I have ever seen of CM and I only managed to watch half of it........and i'm not going to be rushing to watch any more.

Was it the quality of the film, but I am sure that CM looked very nervous with some of those dogs. Not the best emotional state around dogs for a Dog Whisperer I would have thought.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Thats the first footage that I have ever seen of CM and I only managed to watch half of it........and i'm not going to be rushing to watch any more.
> 
> Was it the quality of the film, but I am sure that CM looked very nervous with some of those dogs. Not the best emotional state around dogs for a Dog Whisperer I would have thought.


That's his idea of calm assertive! You can see how he doesn't have the first idea about dog body language, though. Completely got it all wrong in every clip that I saw.:nono:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That video made me feel sick those weren't taps he moved that bulldog when he kicked it no tap would do that. And kicking the little ones with the same power as the big ones no . I still say JonBee the jindo was the worst but those are awful


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> That video made me feel sick those weren't taps he moved that bulldog when he kicked it no tap would do that. And kicking the little ones with the same power as the big ones no . I still say JonBee the jindo was the worst but those are awful


Isn't it odd that some years ago my daughter and I drove past a woman nattering on the pavement who kicked her labrador in the side because he wandered into the road while she was busy nattering. We stopped and told her off! Yet this git gets paid millions to do the same thing on telly and all these people say "isn't he marvellous?"

If you passed someone on the street kicking their dog in the side, like we did, wouldn't you stop and tell them off? Wouldn't you be disgusted?

I just do not understand the logic.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would and have told someone off for kicking their dog and for yanking a rottie pup around on a choke chain for just being a puppy and bouncing around. Yet because he has shiny teeth and is charismatic it's suddenly ok


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I saw this on my friends Facebook the other day. I am NOT shocked. Why? Because its d!ckhead Millan! 

He is a coward thats all. Looking reassurance about how great he is from deluded and/or complete fools for owners! Couldn't make it as a man, so trying to make it as a bully............

Who in their sane right mind would let such a brute near their dogs!??!?!?!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> I saw this on my friends Facebook the other day. I am NOT shocked. Why? Because its d!ckhead Millan!
> 
> He is a coward thats all. Looking reassurance about how great he is from deluded and/or complete fools for owners! Couldn't make it as a man, so trying to make it as a bully............
> 
> Who in their sane right mind would let such a brute near their dogs!??!?!?!


I think he's always been a bully, which is why his wife left him. I would swing for him if he ever came near my boys.

Do you know that if one of those dogs actually did turn on him and do him real harm, it would probably get put down? He is the one who needs putting to sleep.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

That clip was really, really upsetting. I haven't watched CM for quite sometime and truly thought he was just touching the dogs on the side with his foot. That footage clearly showed that he was kicking them. Since he has been in the UK has anyone complained to the RSPCA about his methods? Surely he is guilty of cruelty?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

From the owner of JonBee a dog he wrestled with then hung by slip lead until it stopped fighting and pinned it on it's side saying it was dominant. It was an ex-street dog with little human socialisation. It bit him but so would I have

It was disturbing watching poor JonBee desperately trying to control his situation and trying to dominate Cesar. However, JonBee was the violent participant in his rehabilitation - not Cesar. Cesar was nothing but calm and gentle with him. JonBee's violence was precisely why we needed Cesar


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Video's been removed due to copyright infringement. This makes him look scared of being found out and I hope people's imagination make it worse than if they actually saw it.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> From the owner of JonBee a dog he wrestled with then hung by slip lead until it stopped fighting and pinned it on it's side saying it was dominant. It was an ex-street dog with little human socialisation. It bit him but so would I have
> 
> It was disturbing watching poor JonBee desperately trying to control his situation and trying to dominate Cesar. However, JonBee was the violent participant in his rehabilitation - not Cesar. Cesar was nothing but calm and gentle with him. JonBee's violence was precisely why we needed Cesar


I'm not sure if you are being serious here and I don't know who JonBee is, but what is calm and gentle about hanging a dog by it's lead and pinning it down?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have seen him do this in many of his episodes and it's more of a touch with the foot than a kick tbh. Mostly he uses it when he has a dog on leash and it's meant to surprise the dog, that's why he doesn't use his hands as the dog would know where it's coming from - hense no surprise tactic. If you watch carefully you'll see the dogs reactions aren't of pain but startlement. My own trainer/behaviourist uses a similar technique with an excited dog and it immediately calms it down.

Saw a video on here recently where the owner was actually kicking his dog and that was completely different.

Not something I would do but then my dogs don't act up like some of the ones he deals with - thank god! You have to remember also that these owners have tried many other training methods with other trainers who have given up!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> And as for the circling, bum-down German Shepherd... that behaviour is excitement, he declares.
> Looked like fear to me. :mad5:
> Well, Terry, you know more about dog body language than I do. What is your opinion?


i know doggone well that bats are not blind - but after all the many times i have seen dogs display one set of emotions, 
and Cesar describe them as something *entirely* different from everything that i see or saw, 
in that same dog --- i think he is if not blind, he's incredibly myopic.

if there is ever an opportunity to label a dog's behavior in one of 2 ways, one neutral or flattering to the dog, 
and the other blaming or detrimental to the dog, i swear he picks the one that makes the dog look bad - 
every dam*ed time, so far as i can tell.

this is, of course, merely my uninformed opinion - Cesar being a dog-psychologist, and all... :thumbsup: :lol:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I'm not sure if you are being serious here and I don't know who JonBee is, but what is calm and gentle about hanging a dog by it's lead and pinning it down?


It's not that's a quote from his owner because there were complaints quite rightly so about the episode so she jumped to defend him


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> It's not that's a quote from his owner because there were complaints quite rightly so about the episode so she jumped to defend him


then she obviously has no business owning a dog. So if someone came and did something like that to your dog, would you be defending them? Or would you be trying to do the same to them? Some people will do just about anything to gets themselves on the telly.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> then she obviously has no business owning a dog. So if someone came and did something like that to your dog, would you be defending them? Or would you be trying to do the same to them? Some people will do just about anything to gets themselves on the telly.


They have another dog that CM rehabilitated too . Her and her husband take in stray dogs and try to rehome them great thing to do if they didn't hero worship him


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Have seen him do this in many of his episodes and it's more of a touch with the foot than a kick tbh. Mostly he uses it when he has a dog on leash and it's meant to surprise the dog, that's why he doesn't use his hands as the dog would know where it's coming from - hense no surprise tactic. If you watch carefully you'll see the dogs reactions aren't of pain but startlement. My own trainer/behaviourist uses a similar technique with an excited dog and it immediately calms it down


Think about that!

You have an animal, that is being conditioned by unexplained unpleasant "bolts out of the blue", rather than willingly and lovingly be cooperative, because you like something and life is better, with good things happening when your leadership is followed.

Suppressing something, doesn't really calm, you're just suppressing the symptoms and likely building frustration, the signals you can read, like the idiots who yell at their dogs in angry way for growling. If you're going to "Interrupt" startle the dog from an action, you need a better reason than it being excited.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> The person who made it is liable to be taken to court, I imagine, for libel or slander, or whatever the proper name is


Bring it on!

Cesar is really going to benefit from a high profile libel case, to see the likely result search round for stories on the Mac Cancer trial


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> I think this video will have interesting repercussions. The person who made it is liable to be taken to court, I imagine, for libel or slander, or whatever the proper name is. How far down the distribution of it this would go, e.g., people putting it on their websites, etc., I don't know. The person who made it makes quite bad errors in putting forward serious allegations about what he thinks happens next in some of the shots, and also suggestions about a sensitive area of the dog being targetted. I wonder if he ran it past some legal experts first before distributing it via Youtube, and potentially setting himself and other distributors of the video up for some serious legal trouble... His heart may be ruling him, but his head seems to have gone off on a holiday.


It is only libel or slander if it is untrue. Was that a CM lookalike do you think? It is there on film, it cannot be denied. And it is not the first of these types of clips starring the Great Idiot Himself to appear on You Tube.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Aint' gonna happen...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> And, if he won, you're quite happy for the video poster to be financially ruined?


But he wouldn't win, would he? Unless he can prove the film is doctored, or it was not him starring in it, he has no defence.

Would you have everybody keep their mouths shut about animal cruelty for fear of being sued? It would not be the first time he has been sued, either. Someone was already suing him for ruining their dog, when left for "training" at his "psychology centre". That was settled out of court, so as to diminish the publicity.


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

I know where i'd like to kick him


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Irrelevant, Cesar would be foolish to sue because of the massive publicity and public debate about his methods, and the general public would become aware of the "kicking the dogs" film. How many big TV stars have been dumped off TV lately because of furores with bad publicity?

Loads have ppl have tried to suppress embaressing things on the net, and it's like flattening mole hills they keep popping up, over and over.

Anyone covering the story or watching DW can see occasions where he foot taps the dog, and see the potential for it going wrong; kidneys are vulnerable to impact. People even die when balls impact their chests, stopping hearts protected by rib cage.

The fact is, I watch the DW shows, and they've been toned down a lot as the series progress. The recent Cesar in the UK episodes, he was on his best behaviour, presumbably as part of preparation was risk assessment on our animal cruelty laws. He hardly touched the dogs at all and was much more hands off than in the US shows. Plenty of ppl would have been putting in complaints to the broadcaster if he got those prong collars and such out.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Unfortunately these vides are taken out of context as it only show him "kicking" dogs, they don't show how often he does it in an episode and it doesn't show the reasons why he does it. It's just clip after clip of anything jp can find to send out negetive signals to anyone who wants to see. Every one of these clips are taken from programmes that have been aired on tv, so he doen't make a secret about it. They are not some startling revelation that have been discovered behind the scene's that he is trying to cover up. He even did this on stage at Wembley last March. My trainer calls it redirection and she does it with a sideways nudge of her knee. Addmitted it doesn't look as bad when done with a knee but it's the same principle and the same outcome. It's not a way of training it's a way of getting the dogs attention off of the "target", whether it's another dog or over excitedness about a situation/environment and then the training continues. My trainer isn't a CM lover but she does see some things he does as being positive. When she introduces Flynn to another dog she does not use treats, like I do, she uses her confidence and re direction with amazing results.
Some of the people he works with are at a loss, having been to other trainer/behaviourists and been told their dogs are un trainable, best option pts but then many of the owners, to be fair to the dogs, don't have a clue how to train a dog anyway. Last nights episode showed a woman with a small dog who had no excercise (don't know why as the owner was young) who kept biting people, after being shown how to address the dog and carry on training she still couldn't do it so her advice from her vet was - and wait for this - to remove the dogs canine teeth and file down the others so as when she bit it wouldn't hurt! The only excercise that dog got was on a tread mill, quite common out there as they seem to think because they have big back yards walking a dog isn't necessary. Because of that CM took her himself. As soon as she was in the compound she changed completely and after accompanying CM to various training sessions with other dogs was a different dog altogether, being able to be re homed.
If that is the kind of advice veterinary surgeons out there give I think they are the ones who should be being addressed on you tube, because to me that is physical cruelty in the worst possible form.

I do agree that it's not good to show some of CM's methods on tv as there are stupid owners who will try it out, do it wrong and result in abuse but then how would it be a true insight into his rehabilitating mehods if they left out clips that might offend people? What I do know is he doesn't always use this method, none in last nights prog, no prongs, no e colars but then those won't make it to you tube will they? Very biased I feel!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> *Unfortunately these vides are taken out of context as it only show him "kicking" dogs, they don't show how often he does it in an episode and it doesn't show the reasons why he does it*. It's just clip after clip of anything jp can find to send out negetive signals to anyone who wants to see. Every one of these clips are taken from programmes that have been aired on tv, so he doen't make a secret about it. They are not some startling revelation that have been discovered behind the scene's that he is trying to cover up. He even did this on stage at Wembley last March. My trainer calls it redirection and she does it with a sideways nudge of her knee. Addmitted it doesn't look as bad when done with a knee but it's the same principle and the same outcome. It's not a way of training it's a way of getting the dogs attention off of the "target", whether it's another dog or over excitedness about a situation/environment and then the training continues. My trainer isn't a CM lover but she does see some things he does as being positive. When she introduces Flynn to another dog she does not use treats, like I do, she uses her confidence and re direction with amazing results.
> Some of the people he works with are at a loss, having been to other trainer/behaviourists and been told their dogs are un trainable, best option pts but then many of the owners, to be fair to the dogs, don't have a clue how to train a dog anyway. Last nights episode showed a woman with a small dog who had no excercise (don't know why as the owner was young) who kept biting people, after being shown how to address the dog and carry on training she still couldn't do it so her advice from her vet was - and wait for this - to remove the dogs canine teeth and file down the others so as when she bit it wouldn't hurt! The only excercise that dog got was on a tread mill, quite common out there as they seem to think because they have big back yards walking a dog isn't necessary. Because of that CM took her himself. As soon as she was in the compound she changed completely and after accompanying CM to various training sessions with other dogs was a different dog altogether, being able to be re homed.
> If that is the kind of advice veterinary surgeons out there give I think they are the ones who should be being addressed on you tube, because to me that is physical cruelty in the worst possible form.
> 
> I do agree that it's not good to show some of CM's methods on tv as there are stupid owners who will try it out, do it wrong and result in abuse but then how would it be a true insight into his rehabilitating mehods if they left out clips that might offend people? What I do know is he doesn't always use this method, none in last nights prog, no prongs, no e colars but then those won't make it to you tube will they? Very biased I feel!


So what? One kick is one kick too many and the reasons are irrelevant. Unless your life or somebody else's life is at stake, there is no valid reason for kicking a dog.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Some of the people he works with are at a loss, having been to other trainer/behaviourists and been told their dogs are un trainable, best option pts but then many of the owners, to be fair to the dogs, don't have a clue how to train a dog anyway. Last nights episode showed a woman with a small dog who had no excercise


But Victoria Stillwell addresses in her recent US 2 series an even wider ranger of issues than the DW has had in umpteen series.

Victoria, doesn't get bit like Cesar and put in a realistic long term plan with owners, without all the mystic quick & easy cure, or getting physical with the dogs. You can learn from the mistakes the owners make in the programs.

So isn't just better all round than the DW, safer, more scientific and with the backing of the professional bodies like the AVSAB?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> So what? One kick is one kick too many and the reasons are irrelevant. Unless your life or somebody else's life is at stake, there is no valid reason for kicking a dog.


On most occasions there is a life at stake - the dogs!



RobD-BCactive said:


> But Victoria Stillwell addresses in her recent US 2 series an even wider ranger of issues than the DW has had in umpteen series.
> 
> Victoria, doesn't get bit like Cesar and put in a realistic long term plan with owners, without all the mystic quick & easy cure, or getting physical with the dogs. You can learn from the mistakes the owners make in the programs.
> 
> ...


My tariner was only saying the other day that he gets bitten far too often but she believes it is purposely for tv, as she has been bitten once in 25 years of dog training. She has also worked on tv and said the impression given that dogs can be trained within hours is wrong too, which makes jp think if his dog isn't trained within a specified time, then it's untrainable.
I like VS too and in her US series she has been horrified at the methods some are using, like i've said before lots of people over there seem to use the easy option when it comes to dog training, I think they want quick results in the laziest way possible. Trouble is they don't know how to use the awful e collars/prong collars and their dogs get even worse!

There are people who profess to be DW over here too and there guest books look quite impressive but unless you as an owner can follow through with this kind of training it's useless. I can't with Flynn when we're out and find treats work much better. However my trainer has said that at nearly three years old I shouldn't be using treats at all now and has shown me how to do it without them - all very well but I feel better with giving treats and it works.

As i've said before I do like CM, find the progs very interesting and know they're not all e/prong collars and now kicking but I do feel people could open themselves to legal action by just posting clips which show one thing. It is made to look like that's all he ever does, which isn't true and that could be construed as libel by the poster - couldn't it?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> On most occasions there is a life at stake - the dogs!
> 
> Can you honestly say that any of the dogs in those clips, or most other programmes of his I have seen, are in danger of being pts for their behaviour? If they are, then the owners should be banned from owning dogs. What was the little dog in the garage doing that was so awful?
> 
> ...


Shouldn't that tell you something then? If he is winding these poor dogs up enough for them to bite, just to get a power fix on tv, he should not be within 100 miles of any dog


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Shouldn't that tell you something then? If he is winding these poor dogs up enough for them to bite, just to get a power fix on tv, he should not be within 100 miles of any dog


You haven't seen the programmes - if you had you'd know he isn't winding the dogs up to make them bite, they already bite and have done to their owners. My trainers point was you don't allow yourself to be in the position to get bitten if you do it properly.
Also the dog in the garage kept escaping and was endangering it's own life, personally I think i'd have been able to deal with that without a trainer, I mean all of our dogs would escape given half the chance - you just don't let them. That's what I mean about some of these onwers not having a clue, like with the rabbit the dog was trying to get, so what? dogs chase rabbits, you just don't let the dog get it- easy really!


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## McBenson (Mar 4, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Unfortunately these vides are taken out of context as it only show him "kicking" dogs, they don't show how often he does it in an episode and it doesn't show the reasons why he does it. It's just clip after clip of anything jp can find to send out negetive signals to anyone who wants to see. !




Ok so if you step out of line at any point am I ok to come round to yours and kick you in the stomach?!!!

If there was any REALISTIC risk of these animals being pts then their owners would have done it long ago but they persevere and try different methods and ask for help at various avenues until they eventually apply to be on tv. This isn't the action of an owner who would euthanise a dog for bad behaviour.:nono:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

McBenson said:


> Ok so if you step out of line at any point am I ok to come round to yours and kick you in the stomach?!!!


I'll treat that remark with the contemp it deserves!

What you have to remember is these programmes have been aired around the world, if they were really as cruel as some would have you believe they would not be allowed to be shown, especially over here. 
His seminars were sold out and at Wembley and he got a standing ovation, proof that not everyone shares the same views. Was surprised to see my tariner there but as she said, she likes to keep an open mind and was interested in what points he had to make. Prong collars, e collars and choke chains are not something I would use but they are still quite legal - unfortunately and widely used by owners in the progs, to which he uaually removes and replaces with a slip lead or Illusion collar. He has used e collars but more often than not exchanges for a slip.

I don't agree with everything he does and find some things unecessary, as i've said, but can still gain some information from watching the programmes, just as I can any other dog training programme.

All I have to say on the subject as it just goes round in circles!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> So what? One kick is one kick too many and the reasons are irrelevant.
> Unless your life or somebody else's life is at stake, there is no valid reason for kicking a dog.


one clip was deleted - here is another: 
YouTube - 13. Cesar Millan kicking dogs (Abuse) 
the clips are all taken from TV-broadcast episodes, which were edited to their own standards before being aired; 
it's not as tho we have not wondered just what was being edited *out,* considering what was broadcast.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> Meant to put in my last post, but forgot to, Ian Dunbar has collaborated with CM on a book - Cesar's Rules or something - (as Dunbar says the author doesn't pick the title, the publisher usually does). So, it will be interesting to see what his take will be on the video when it hits the mainstream.


Dr Dunbar did not collaborate on the book, he was quoted in it in order to try to get some sense into the author. CM listens to the likes of Ian Dunbar, then goes back to his usual abusive ways, he just wanted his name on the book to assuage his critics.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Malmum said:


> You haven't seen the programmes - if you had you'd know he isn't winding the dogs up to make them bite, they already bite and have done to their owners


I have seen the programmes, and the owners featured are generally totaly clueless and negligent, failing to meet the needs of their dogs or teaching them how to fit in with human soceity. Now these people see unreliable techniques, which the AVSAB say research shows are not safe as they provoke agression. Guess what, Cesar gets bit. It just proves the point, Cesar uses out dated, less safe and less effective methods.

Similar nervous and bite prone dogs have been calmed and turned round by generally accepted more reliable methods, without the presenter of the show having any confrontation with the dogs at all.

Watching a DW programme twice, as pointed out by the professional behaviourists in this forum before (probably leashedforlife), helps a lot to see through the smooth voice overs and music, concentrate on the dogs body language and ignore their interpretation.

Now that said, I shall repeat that Cesar appears better than many dog owners and I agree that the lot of the dogs is likely improved. I don't agree with the more extreme anti-Cesar comment, because very many people less in public eye would need to have their dogs taken away and eventually put down; a totally unworkeable number for any democracy. Also Cesar has appeared to respond to criticism and has improved over the years, he even suggested postitive reinforcement in last programme I watched.



elledee said:


> suggest that the video would have been better being purely objective, and missing out the subjective part about "what Caesar might have done next", if the producer of the video wanted to prove a point


I agree that objective criticism is better than diatribe, especially when one talks with someone favourably disposed to the DW and methods, having seen them on TV. But I just think that the compilation of DW show clips, are damning enough back to back, without further explanation. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not, all Cesar can really do is quietly supress it and hope it blows over; *damage limitation*.

If the DW sued, it would just cause more people to view those clips which were aired on TV together, without the spin, in order to judge for themselves.
He loses, just like Mac Donalds did even before their case was judged, because of the public nature of the hearing.

How many decent people really want to confront and intimidate their pet, when the veneer of respectability lent by authority "this is the way to teach the dog what for!" is removed? You really spend good money on a family pet, in order to have stressful time with it, acting like a concentration camp guard?

They're just misguided because Human instinct erroneously suggests that strong firm actions are more effective in enforcing "discipline", than more gentle cooperative approaches. The reality is you lose nothing by giving up punishment based approaches, as the positifve approach is more effective.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> Here'spart of what Ian Dunbar says in an article called "My contribution to Cesar Millan's new book", from his Dog Star Daily website:
> 
> _Obviously, any book with Cesars name on it is destined to be a best seller, no matter what the content. Since any content is guaranteed enormous exposure, we thought, why not have reward-based training techniques get the exposure. I was very reassured to find out that my respected colleague and good buddy Bob Bailey was also involved and I finally agreed to be interviewed and filmed after being given full veto power over the manuscript, photos and filming. However, with the exception of the photo (mentioned below), veto-power was unnecessary. In all the times that I have been interviewed and filmed, I have never had my words and actions presented so accurately  almost word for word._
> 
> *He actively decided to be part of it. So, this video will affect him as well, and no doubt Bob Bailey to a certain extent.*




Not to sensible people it won't. Ian Dunbar is neither in this clip nor mentioned in it, and his only objective in being interviewed for the book alone was to get his own accepted methods across to the general public. Unfortunately, since most of the people reading that book will have never heard of Ian Dunbar, they will emerge still think CM is great for giving space to these nobodies.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I'll treat that remark with the contemp it deserves!
> 
> What you have to remember is these programmes have been aired around the world, if they were really as cruel as some would have you believe they would not be allowed to be shown, especially over here.
> His seminars were sold out and at Wembley and he got a standing ovation, proof that not everyone shares the same views. Was surprised to see my tariner there but as she said, she likes to keep an open mind and was interested in what points he had to make. Prong collars, e collars and choke chains are not something I would use but they are still quite legal - unfortunately and widely used by owners in the progs, to which he uaually removes and replaces with a slip lead or Illusion collar. He has used e collars but more often than not exchanges for a slip.
> ...


Rather than join the neverending circle of chat about Cesar, I thought it best to quote the above by Malmum. It is exactly how I feel. Couldn't put it better myself so pinched Malmum's post.

There are so many people that join the Cesar bashing wagon and just refuse to see that there are some very good points and advice made by Cesar. I've discussed Cesar many times with many people and it seems to be a subject that always turns sour, so I don't get involved in the discussion to any degree because it normally ends up ugly and life's too short to argue about certain subjects that you know you will never agree on with certain people.

I like Cesar. There are some things that I don't like but I don't make an issue of it. No two people are ever going to agree on everything. Sensible people would take what advice they are happy with and leave the advice they are not so pleased with.

What I will never understand is why some people go hammer and tong about Cesar when (as Malmum pointed out) the man is known worldwide and is very popular. If he were cruel and as awful as people say, he wouldn't have reigned this long.

Anyway, that's all I've got to say on the matter:001_smile:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

elledee said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...Ian Dunbar has *collaborated* with CM on a book - Cesar's Rules or something...


not exactly; Cesar asked a slew of well-known trainers to contribute to *his* book - he is well-aware 
of his moulting plumage in the public-eye, there's a limit to how many times anyone, even a fan, wants to watch 
the same program, essentially, but with other names on the people & dog in a different house; his formula is losing 
its novelty & becoming ho-hum.

some of the trainers Cesar's agents approached said, _'Absolutely not' -_ they were unwilling to be connected 
in any way with the *D-W*, and i can understand their concerns. 
Ian Dunbar & the others who said yes were assured that they themselves had full editing control over their 
own sections, and nothing would be re-written after they approved it.

from Amazon.com: Cesar's Rules: Your Way to Train a Well-Behaved Dog (9780307716866): Cesar Millan, Melissa Jo Peltier: Books 
QUOTE, 
_"The methods and theories from a variety of renowned trainers, including Bob Bailey, Ian Dunbar, Joel Silverman, Martin Deeley, and Mark Harden"_ 
notice that *not all of his 'guests' are reward-based trainers - * Joel Silverman thinks all dogs should 
begin training on choke-chains, which i think is ridiculous but he has some rationalization for it, i am sure.

Martin Deeley is a gundog trainer with a long association with CM/DW [he wrote the intro to 'Cesar's Way'], 
he loves shock-collars and thinks they are absolutely necessary for dog training & are not only for gundogs; 
he is also co-founder of the IACP, Intl Assoc of Canine-Professionals, which group specifically *forbids* 
any member from trying to *limit* [license, sell thru vets only, etc] or *ban* any "recognized training tool".

since the IACP does not list what things are recognized training-tools, that pretty much means anything goes. 
to say that i disagree is a very pale phrase, indeed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Dr Dunbar did not collaborate on the book, he was quoted in it in order to try to get some sense into the author.
> CM listens to the likes of Ian Dunbar, then goes back to his usual abusive ways, he just wanted his name on the book to assuage his critics.


actually, Dunbar did contribute, but U are right that Cesar is trying to expand his market by 'incorporating' 
more voices & viewpoints, especially people who already have an established reputation, 
so that he could find a larger market for his book - not 'just' his own fans, but other trainers' audiences.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> What I will never understand is why some people go hammer and tong about Cesar when (as Malmum pointed out) the man is known worldwide and is very popular. If he were cruel and as awful as people say, he wouldn't have reigned this long


The reason for that is simple, because they are upset that so much TV viewer time is spent seeing, out dated, less safe and ineffective methods; which are viewed as unsound by the responsible professional bodies.

The programme portrays Cesar as some kind of special talent, so when you are able to spot his mistakes, you become incensed by it. He gets watched on TV not because he's competent, but because he takes risks; *I watch Cesar more because he gets bitten and does daft risky things, so there's more suspense involved, than a more serious dog show.*

Several people I've talked to whilst dog walking who consulted behavourists (at times recommended by their vet) have been advised to practice techniques like Alpha rolling, which are known to be ineffective and dangerous. When such techniques fail, the dog may be put down which makes many sad and angry at the Pack Leader style practicioners, who take your money for discredited advice, that reduce the dog's quality of life and damage your relationship with it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> So, you don't think a little bit of it was to advertise himself and gain financially. He does charge around £100 a ticket for seminars over here, so lots of people who would love to go and see him, can't actually afford to. I'm not sure he is as altruistic as you seem to think he is, but he does seem an excellent businessman with a product lots of people want, and may benefit from.


I cannot imagine that Ian Dunbar would advertise himself by being associated with someone whose methods he has disproved and disapproves of. I have also not noticed him having Caesar Millan as a guest at any of his seminars. Quite frankly, I think it is a shame that he allowed his name to be linked with the DW at all, but Ian Dunbar has the best interests of dogs in mind in whatever he does. Caesar Millan has the best interests of himself in mind.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> Ian Dunbar had the chance not to associate himself with Cesar Millan, and chose to do so. I would imagine, if he stood by his principles, he would have done what other people you've mentioned did, said that he didn't want to take part. I notice in his Daily Star article also that Mr Dunbar asked for the picture of him that he said looked as though he had his hands on his dog to be taken out, as it basically it didn't go with his hands-off message, which I thought was rather sweet...


Allowed his name to be associated with the book in order to get the message of reward based training across in a book which was bound to be a bestseller. He was looking for coverage for the best training methods.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> Ian Dunbar had the chance not to associate himself with Cesar Millan, and chose to do so. I would imagine, if he stood by his principles, he would have done what other people you've mentioned did, said that he didn't want to take part


How is writing a section for a book, putting over your views with control of content, which you have confidence a contradiction of Dunbar's principals?

Dunbar, likely wants to do something to enlighten the reachable proportion of CM's audience of readers with his perspective.

Perhaps it's naive, of him, but not unprincipalled.



Dunbar said:


> I have always thought, that I can do so much more good for dogs by engaging those who use dog training techniques of which I strongly disapprove, rather than simply preaching to the choir. Having read the book, I am glad that I decided to be involved. I was given free rein to say what I liked and do what I liked - an extremely unusual arrangement when dealing with television production companies. I mentioned over and over that I consider touching a dog to be an earned privilege rather than a right and that training should always be off-leash and hands-off. I have always taught people, to never touch a dog to force him to comply but rather, to touch him afterwards as a reward if that's what he enjoys. I have always taught people to try and see the dog's point of view and to be patient and give the dog time when resolving behavior and temperament problems


To turn this around, so Cesar the Dog Wrestler is now reduced to giving space to positive reinforcement and be influenced by it; despite them totaly contradicting his past advice.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

elledee said:


> *bold & underline added - *
> 
> Ian Dunbar had the chance not to associate himself with Cesar Millan, and chose to do so. I would imagine,
> *if he stood by his principles, he would have done what other people you've mentioned did, said that he didn't want to take part.*


Dr Dunbar's principles are quite well-known: to spread the message that pain & fear are not needed 
in dog-training, and even more, that pain & fear damage the dog's learning & damage the relationship.

he did not depart from his principles - this was a chance to reach Cesar's fans with his reward-based message. 


elledee said:


> I notice in his Daily Star article also that Mr Dunbar asked for the picture of him that he said looked as though
> he had his hands on his dog to be taken out, as it basically it didn't go with his hands-off message...


yes - he was understandably frustrated by that photo, since it is precisely opposite what he is saying, 
and we all know that visual messages are potent.


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## McBenson (Mar 4, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I'll treat that remark with the contemp it deserves!
> 
> What you have to remember is these programmes have been aired around the world, if they were really as cruel as some would have you believe they would not be allowed to be shown, especially over here.
> His seminars were sold out and at Wembley and he got a standing ovation, proof that not everyone shares the same views. Was surprised to see my tariner there but as she said, she likes to keep an open mind and was interested in what points he had to make. *Prong collars, e collars and choke chains are not something I would use but they are still quite legal* - unfortunately and widely used by owners in the progs, to which he uaually removes and replaces with a slip lead or Illusion collar. *He has used e collars* but more often than not exchanges for a slip.
> ...


just because it's legal and popular doesn't mean it's the right thing to do or in the animal's best interests. It seems people are willing to overlook the abuse just because CM makes a few good points. All dictators will make a few good points in their career but it doesn't mean you should follow them blindly and overlook the torture they inflict just because everyone else is. I do keep an open mind but that door gets shut very quickly when I see people abusing their position.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> The reason for that is simple, because they are upset that so much TV viewer time is spent seeing, out dated, less safe and ineffective methods; which are viewed as unsound by the responsible professional bodies.
> 
> The programme portrays Cesar as some kind of special talent, so when you are able to spot his mistakes, you become incensed by it. He gets watched on TV not because he's competent, but because he takes risks; *I watch Cesar more because he gets bitten and does daft risky things, so there's more suspense involved, than a more serious dog show.*
> 
> Several people I've talked to whilst dog walking who consulted behavourists (at times recommended by their vet) have been advised to practice techniques like Alpha rolling, which are known to be ineffective and dangerous. When such techniques fail, the dog may be put down which makes many sad and angry at the Pack Leader style practicioners, who take your money for discredited advice, that reduce the dog's quality of life and damage your relationship with it.


If Cesar wished, he could have the bites that you talk of edited out of his show. He doesn't. That tells you something, doesn't it!

For all I know, perhaps misguided viewers have taken his advice to the extreme (therefore getting bitten). However, I believe that there are many that have used his advice and saved their dogs from being PTS.

I talk to many dog owners when out walking and many have used Cesar's advice regarding certain issues and have been really pleased with the outcome. I've actually never come across anyone outside of forums/internet chat, where they are actually against the man.

I have used some of his advice and I have seen good results. Thankfully, I've never encountered a truly aggressive dog in my home but if I did and I felt at risk (not much risk in my breed ) I would seek the advice of a professional before attempting anything potentially dangerous/risky. I believe that the programme gives warnings to this effect


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## McBenson (Mar 4, 2011)

elledee said:


> "some of the trainers Cesar's agents approached said, 'Absolutely not' - they were unwilling to be connected in any way with the D-W, and i can understand their concerns."
> 
> My opinion, and it evidently differs from yours as opinions do, is that those people stood by what they believed, but that Ian Dunbar didn't.


Perhaps Ian Dunbar took a different approach. He decided that yes CM is popular but he is putting across the wrong message. He can't compete with CM but he can expose CM's followers to an alternative method and maybe they will see sense. It doesn't mean he forgot about his principles at all.


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## McBenson (Mar 4, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> If Cesar wished, he could have the bites that you talk of edited out of his show. He doesn't. That tells you something, doesn't it!


yes it tells me that he wans to use the sensationalism of an overly aggressive dog to rake in viewers


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> *If Cesar wished, he could have the bites that you talk of edited out of his show. He doesn't. That tells you something, doesn't it!*
> 
> For all I know, perhaps misguided viewers have taken his advice to the extreme (therefore getting bitten). However, I believe that there are many that have used his advice and saved their dogs from being PTS.
> 
> ...


Yes, it tells me that it makes for more drama and better television with the bites left in, and more people declaring how wonderful he is because he is brave enough to get bitten and not complain. Otherwise, why wind the dogs up to bite in the first place.

Other tv trainers (Victoria Stilwell springs to mind) have gone to see dogs with a known history of biting visitors and has managed to not get bitten at all. Why? Because she knows how to approach them and how to keep them calm.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> I think you will see, if you read Ian Dunbar's article, he states he did the interview because CM's books are always best sellers, so I don't see much reducing. Contributing to CM's book could work against Dunbar to some extent, in that he may lose some of his future target audience, who CM may be trying to draw in. There are pro-Milans and pro-Ian Dunbar, but an awful lot of undecideds. Like politics, these are the ones that business, including that of dog training, fight over...


By contributing the the book, Ian Dunbar managed to publish on a bestselling level, the opposite way of training dogs, which a lot of CM's viewers and readers have never heard of.

How many people who watch dog training programmes have ever heard of Ian Dunbar? It is a sad fact of life that his ways do not make good television, so he took the opportunity to state his views to a wider audience.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I talk to many dog owners when out walking and many have used Cesar's advice regarding certain issues
> and have been really pleased with the outcome. I've actually never come across anyone outside of forums
> [or] internet chat, where they are actually against the man.


funny, that U've never met anyone in the flesh who disagrees with the Dawg-Wrassler's methods as shown? 
we obviously exist... :lol: fairies, gnomes & elves are not seen in zoo-habitats, but we humans who 
disagree & disapprove have habitats which overlap with the natural habitats of choke-chain users, Tssst!-users, etc. 


Chihuahua Angels said:


> I have *used some of his advice* and I have seen good results.
> Thankfully, I've never encountered a truly aggressive dog in my home but if I did and I felt at risk...
> I would seek the advice of a professional before attempting anything potentially dangerous/risky.
> I believe that *the programme gives warnings* to this effect


yes, the program does have both visual & audible disclaimers - which U, and other viewers, obviously ignored - 
hence the acknowledged risk to both humans & dogs, in displaying such techniques in pet-owners' homes 
via telly: *people will mimic what they see - the disclaimer is for legal purposes, to protect Natl-Geo 
from being sued if injuries or other bad outcomes were to occur, as a result of imitating what they saw.*


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> If Cesar wished, he could have the bites that you talk of edited out of his show. He doesn't. That tells you something, doesn't it!


Awww, come on! The producers would hate him, ratings... ratings....


Chihuahua Angels said:


> I have used some of his advice and I have seen good results


That's hardly surprising as much of his advice has been developed and used by others. When you have many techniques shown some of them are naturally effective. How does the average viewer weed out the bad ideas?

An example of CM's counter productive advice, for example removal of dog's food bowl to check it accepts this; that's actually regarded by the research rather than gut based practitioners as foolish and liable to actually cause food guarding, which leads to severe bite cases to one or other of the owners and endangers their children.

Because his views are based on discredited theory, with relationship with dog seen in dominance & submissive terms the wrong conclusions are drawn, leading to at times very poor advice. It is possible to raise the bar higher than Cesar and have a happier well behaved dog, rather than an intimidated one.


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## McBenson (Mar 4, 2011)

elledee said:


> Why can't he compete with Milan? He charges a lot of money, he evidently thinks his wisdom is worth it, and that the market can bear it. If he wanted to be more popular and reach a bigger audience, dropping his prices a bit would I imagine make him more popular?


Hi wisdom is worth it, that's where principals come into play. He won't sensationalise his training methods to grab ratings. He won't put the safety of himself, dogs and their owners at risk by using dangerous techniques.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> Why can't he compete with Milan? He charges a lot of money, he evidently thinks his wisdom is worth it, and that the market can bear it. If he wanted to be more popular and reach a bigger audience, dropping his prices a bit would I imagine make him more popular?


I am not sure "compete" is the right word here. Ian Dunbar is a scientist, a reknowned and qualified expert in animal behaviour, not a showman. I should imagine he would disdain the idea of having an international tv show calling him the Dog Whisperer or some other such nonsense; I know I would in his position. I also do not think that £100 to attend one of his seminars is a great deal of money, compared to what CM makes through bringing his abusive methods into people's homes.

Caesar Millan is a tv star, Ian Dunbar is not, yet people are still prepared to pay that much to see and listen to him. That tells me that he is thankfully gathering a following of like minded people, which can only be for the good.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> Why can't he compete with Milan?


In kicking dogs and getting bitten? Who'd want to compete with Cesar?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

elledee said:


> Why can't he compete with Milan?


because Dunbar is not subsidized by Natl-Geo?

because Dunbar does not have a 60-minute bully pulpit on TV in over 50 countries... via Natl-Geo, 
which was regarded as a legitimate source of science-news, & has degraded to 'just another channel'...
competing for ratings?

because Dunbar does not 'do' high-drama & lots of flashing fangs, adrenaline-charged presentations?

because people would rather watch 'Jackass' than legitimate dog-training?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> If Cesar wished, he could have the bites that you talk of edited out of his show. He doesn't. That tells you something, doesn't it!


Promised myself I wouldn't get involved.

When it comes to TV programmes the way the USA do things to how we do things are very different when it comes to animals.

Whilst we were spearheading the the way for natural history programmes such made by the great Dickie Attenborough showing how animals behaved in their natural habitat, interacted and generally wen about their business, the Americans were all for showing the same animals but a bit differently. 
The American programme makers focussed more on how dangerous the animals were and how brave the presenters were for being int he same continent with them but to make things even more Uncle Sam they were portrayed as heroes for killing the wild beasts before they got out of Africa, India, Russia or anywhere and tried to invade and wipe out the good people of The Land of The Free. Quick! Lion trying to run away from us! SHOOT IT!!

This gave a more exciting, fast paced documentary that supposed pitted man against beast but the men and women presenters had massive portable cannons and the voice over blasted on how it was a lucky escape that they managed to kill the animal after it took a whole village to back it into a corner where it was easier to get a sight on it. Still very brave of them though.

IF you watch half the cack that the American broadcasters make it is usually alogn the lines of "When Ferrets Attack!" or "Worlds Deadliest Rodents!" and they get played over and over again on Nat Geo, Discovery etc.

So, going back to Mr Milan's shows, if the shows aren't fast paced, show cut backs to dogs barking and going nuts like wild rabid animals and even the voice over is like something from a Die Hard film which all adds to the "There is no freekin way anyone can sort this hell hound out man! It's like too freekin gnarly!"
In walks Sheriff Milan and his size 6 shooters (his shoes ) and goes bare handed into the same room as the dog.
"Get outta there man! That dog's gonna rip your freekin head off!"
The dog flashes, Milan goes in, wrestles the dog, gains the upper hand and gets control fo the dog. The camera then zooms into the slight cut on his hand, the voice over says "Unexpectadly the dog lunges at Cesar who uses his reaction to deflect the worst of the bite". Cesar has won, the crowds go wild and there hasn;t been celebrations like this since the 1978 Mardi Gras.

What the general viewer doesn't pick up on is the dog is being forced back into a corner, has already given a warning growl that hasn't been heeded to, Cesar is piling on the pressure and then the dog has no choice but to snap. What a guy, what a hero!!!

The bites are just a massive drama that could be easily avoided but put unneccessary over exagerated views of how vicious the dog is. The dog is trying to get the chuff away from him if anything.

I rememebr watching a programme on one of the channels made an American TV company called "World's Ten Most Deadliest Snakes" and was presented by a South African guy who was all for building the drama up, having the camera man follow him as he leaped all of 3inch down the helicopter and ran towards his inteneded target which was a snake trying get the f-chuff out of there before this massive noisey thing came out of the sky and killed it. Instead it got cut off by some bearded idiot who cut off it's escape path and then started to poke it with a stick just to make sure it was having a truly bad day.
The programme could have lasted half the time if, and I kid you not, he hadn't been bitten by about 4 of them and been rushed to hospital. No wonder he was riding around in a helicopter, it was the quickest way to ensure he didn't die.
Watch a documentary made by any other nation on earth and it will be filmed with hidden or minimal intrusion in order to film the natural behaviour but for the US of A it has to be fast paced, fast actioned, massive element of danger and something has to be at risk of something.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> A lot of people who would really love to see Ian Dunbar can't afford to. This seems pretty unfair. So, if you can afford the money, he's happy to talk to you. At £100 a seat, he only needs to fill 30 to make £3,000, and I am sure with his fan base, even discounting the financially strapped ones who can't afford the price for his wisdom, he will fill more seats than that. He fills 100 seats in a night, if my maths is correct, he makes £10,000. So, I think you need to add astute businessman to your list. His image is the introverted, quietly spoken man from Berkeley. That's the one he's cultivated - more suited to his physique - and also the end of the market he is trying to cultivate.
> 
> I don't have anything against the chap, but he is, like Cesar Milan, running a business, and a very financially successful one, not being altruistic.


So, because a reknowned expert has principles, he should give them away for free? While someone who knows nothing about the subject makes millions? Seems a cock eyed way of looking at things to me. Why shouldn't he be a businessman? That position does not denigrate from his principles one little bit.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this sums it up: 


hutch6 said:


> What the general viewer doesn't pick up on is the dog is being forced back into a corner, has already given
> a warning growl that hasn't been heeded to, Cesar is piling on the pressure and then the dog has no choice
> but to snap. What a guy, what a hero!!!
> 
> ...


yup.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Whilst we were spearheading the the way for natural history programmes... showing how animals
> behaved in their natural habitat, interacted and generally went about their business, the Americans were all for showing
> the same animals but a bit differently.
> ...focused... on how *dangerous* the animals were and how *brave* the presenters were... [snip]
> ...


it's true *now - * but it did not start-out this way.

the Mutual-of-Omaha sponsored show, 'Wild Kingdom', was mostly just documentary-style. 
'Wild America' with Marty Stouffer was *staged* frequently; even the great Jacques Cousteau staged events, 
and on one occasion, a young seal died during filming, but that part was not shown.

moving from the 1960s & 70s into the 80s, Shark Week became a big hit on the Discovery channel, but since sharks 
don't bite people often enuf naturally, they needed to create the thrills, so baiting or hand-feeding was used to get them 
in close & get dramataic footage.

the *major-drama* did not begin until that maniac Aussie, Steve Irwin, began to appear on Animal Planet - 
he did up-close, hands-on & high-risk, and he tripped off a rash of imitators who chase snakes, giant fish, 
record-sized crocodilians, giant bugs, etc, all over creation, doing insane things like trying to approach lions 
in Africa [dimwits] and so on.

it's become an industry staple - but Steve started it all.  and i sincerely wish he had not. 
he always said, _if i get killed, don't blame the animal._ many of us who do work with wildlife were saying, 
not IF, but _'When he gets killed, they will blame the animal..._ and they did - over 2-dozen giant 
sting-rays were killed, within a week of his death - even tho he & the film-crew had been harassing 
AKA stalking them in close pursuit for over an hour, when he was killed.

i would lay money that Steve being Steve, he was touching the ray when it barbed him. 
and personally, i do not blame the animal at all.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

elledee said:


> ...to cut out a whole swathe of people from attending his seminars, who actually no doubt
> increase his coffers by buying dvds, books, etc., and increase his market by recommending him to other people,
> by charging such an [exorbitant] price for his seminars seems quite financially coldblooded. But, then, I suppose
> they can increase his wealth further by buying more dvds instead, making do with second best...


hmm. 
first Dunbar is incompetent & cannot compete; then he's a vampire, filling stadiums at 100 per seat - 
now he's unfair, because setting the price at 100 means many of his adoring fans cannot see The Great Man 
in person.

which is it?  or does it just depend on which angle of attack U prefer, at the moment? 

seeing Dunbar in person on a stage is not much different from seeing Dunbar in a video on a stage; for trainers, 
the big thrill is being able to go out to dinner with Ian or have an after-seminar group outing at a bar - 
he's a fun guy, loves to talk, likes a joke, tells great stories, and it's a fun time with colleagues.

but Ian could not possibly go out to a bar with a thousand people, after a huge public event; it's ridiculous. 
so i would say that buying a DVD gets U the best of all worlds: U can watch it anytime, there is no travel co$t, 
U can rewind if U miss a bit, he's right there... No chatterbox 2 seats over, no pillar blocking the view. 
i think it's ideal - unless U want to go to a small-group setting & spend considerably more $$ for 3-days 
of a full-on professional seminar, *with* the travel, hotel, meals, etc, for a chance to chit-chat over dinner.

the one is expensive, but very memorable, i would think - the other is less expensive, but available anytime. 
it's a choice.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

On the debate about whether CM might sue the maker of that clip for libel / slander - how can he? The footage was his own show. All the maker did was to put a bunch of CMs clips together.

As for CM not being cruel:

His methods include kicking, hitting, leash corrections, prongs, chokes / slips (high on the neck where they cause the most pain and damage), electric shocks, scruffing, alpha rolling, hanging dogs until they begin to asphyxiate....

And the results include dogs trying to avoid him, running away and hiding, showing appeasement behaviours, pi$$ing themselves in fear, yelping, shaking, cowering, displaying learned helplessness, and biting (either CM himself or whoever / whatever is nearest).

So if I deliberately goad a dog into making a mistake, in order to launch a physical attack on the dog with the intention of causing pain / fear / loss of air supply, and which leaves it shaking and wetting itself in absolute terror.... that's not cruel???

Perhaps now would be a good time to remind people of the police dog in training Acer - who *died* as a result of being strung up on a choke chain and kicked in the abdomen. Those involved were prosecuted and rightly so - yet these are not so different from the methods CM uses on a frequent basis. With the same risks.

As for the idea that "it can't be cruel because its popular" - I have to laugh at that!! 
Business is still booming for the most disgusting puppy farms across the globe, even here in Blighty despite the Animal Welfare Act. Wild animals are still abused in circuses to provide Joe Public with "entertainment". Dog fighting is still rife, with a massive following, despite having been made illegal in most places decades ago.

Not to mention, a great many of CMs fans are indeed Joe Public - people with little or no knowledge of animal behaviour / dog behaviour / learning theory / different training methods etc. CM is loved by people who assume everything he says is true, and what he does must be necessary.
Unsurprisingly, many of his critics are those who are genuine professionals - people who have studied dog behaviour, who have tried or at least researched various training methods. Experienced, qualified people who know that what CM says is nonsense, and what he does is cruel and dangerous.

Unfortunately, there are more Joe Public than knowledgable dog folk in the world - so the ratings are up, CM remains popular, and the vicious cycle continues.

Last but by no means least - I want to comment on the idea that "I don't agree with everything he says / does but I still like him / he does some good stuff".
I would agree wtih this perhaps in very different circumstances - but as I see it CM abuses dogs in the name of either training or ratings. 
I may agree with the occassional thing he says (eg emphasising the need for exercise) but for me nothing will erase the fact he causes unnecessary suffering to a vast number of animals.
There are plenty of trainers / behaviourists / rescue workers out there helping, traiing and saving dogs without abusing them.

I'm reminded of the old saying "Musselini (sp?) made the trains run on time..."


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I'd like to kick his teeth out


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> funny, that U've never met anyone in the flesh who disagrees with the Dawg-Wrassler's methods as shown?
> we obviously exist... :lol: fairies, gnomes & elves are not seen in zoo-habitats, but we humans who
> disagree & disapprove have habitats which overlap with the natural habitats of choke-chain users, Tssst!-users, etc.
> 
> ...


Nice attitude, hmmmmmm! Quite typical when discussing this subject!

When you were telling me that I ignored the disclaimer, try READING posts before you go into ripping them apart. I already said that I hadn't encountered aggression issues within my home with any of my dogs. I was speaking about training such as walking nicely on a lead and being a pleasant canine when socialising with other dogs and generally.....

Your attitude, LeashedForLife really needs some attention. Perhaps there is a human trainer that can sort out aggressive attitudes; maybe a good alpha roll would do you the world of good

Whilst many members can discuss this subject without ripping other members' posts to shreds, there are always one or two that can't. It's those people that spoil it because I don't have time to discuss a subject with people who clearly think they know it all and have no intention of ever listening to others. Quite honestly it's a waste of time and I have far better things to do with my time.

I'll close the door on my way out


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

sequeena said:


> I'd like to kick his teeth out


I think some members would benefit from a course of anger management


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I think some members would benefit from a course of anger management


So says you.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

sequeena said:


> So says you.


Well, obviously........


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Well I wouldn't kick his teeth out, but it would be nice to see him take a sneaky little light jab to the belly - before he had time to tighten his abdominal muscles. Kind of like what he does to the dogs. You don't need to hit hard at all to cause pain if it's unexpected like that.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I think some members would benefit from a course of anger management


Agree with you there and it's usually the same ones!  Anyone fancy a pint?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> This is the really strange thing that goes on in these threads, and I find it very odd. I do my best to treat my dogs as well as I can, and I try to afford the same to people, no matter how much I might disagree with them.


It's the same on many forums, takes less intellect to just slate someone than it does to have a healthy debate. It's good in a way as it lets you know who to ignore!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

elledee said:


> This is the really strange thing that goes on in these threads, and I find it very odd. I do my best to treat my dogs as well as I can, and I try to afford the same to people, no matter how much I might disagree with them. I am sure Karen Pryor and Ian Dunbar wouldn't resort to it, but it seems that some people who train their dogs using positive methods don't seem to be able to treat human beings in the same manner, or come out with really aggressive statements. It's like a Jekyll and Hyde thing. I've seen several threads where people who have the temerity to voice a different opinion get bullied and intimidated off of threads. In a couple of cases, it has been young girls who have been challenged aggressively and treated abominably. One girl who was only 17 and trying to have a reasonable debate ended up so hurt by the whole experience she left the forum.
> 
> *I have to say this thread is pretty gentle on the whole, but some turn really ugly*.


I agree with your post entirely. The trouble is, when people are bull headed and rude, nobody is going to listen to them. I certainly don't. So what is the point. Perhaps they get some pleasure out of trying to belittle people but, to me, they are only letting themselves down........

Human nature I suppose; some people feel the need to be heard but unfortunately do not possess the social skills to be pleasant whilst doing so.

Shame about the 17 year old that left the forum. She should have just ignored those that were not worthy of discussion.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by MPH Entertainment

!!!!!!!!


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

elledee said:


> I think if you look back, it wasn't me who suggested Dunbar was incompetent and couldn't compete. I think he competes very well - he's a very successful business person, and I stated that further up the thread.
> 
> I do think he charges extortionate prices and lives very comfortably from doing so, whilst some of his fans can't afford what could amount to quite a substantial part of their salary. And I think this is very unfair to many of his followers who would love to go to his seminars, but are outwith the financially sound target audience he makes his living from.
> 
> If you don't have £100 to spare, there is only one choice if you wish to see Dunbar - buy a dvd... so no choice at all really.


You don't have to see him in person to benefit from his wisdom. I can't afford to go see Turid Ragaas either, but I sure loved her book and learned a lot from it to boot!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Colette said:


> On the debate about whether CM might sue the maker of that clip for libel / slander - how can he? The footage was his own show. All the maker did was to put a bunch of CMs clips together


Copyright, distributing his creative work without permission.



Chihuahua Angels said:


> When you were telling me that I ignored the disclaimer, try READING posts before you go into ripping them apart. I already said that I hadn't encountered aggression issues within my home with any of my dogs. I was speaking about training such as walking nicely on a lead and being a pleasant canine when socialising with other dogs and generally....


Don't take that so personal! I got told that the same, when they said that the dogs had to be conditioned to respond to the "Cesar" hiss, by nasty stuff (hitting), rather than it being a natural response. I pointed out that my dog indeed does respond to a hiss in similar manner to dogs on the show without having been hit.

The fact that snakes, swans & cats, have evolved warning hisses suggests to me it has survival value by startling other animals and making them hesitate.

Anyway, it's moot about the disclaimers, as the R+ shows like VS feature the same.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

elledee said:


> She was, like a lot of 17 year olds, quite open and enthusiastic, and I think really taken back and hurt by the frenzied mobbing she got. On top of that, she got the condescending attitude of some adults towards young people about her being only 17 and how she would mature and see the error of her ways, basically.
> 
> Agree with Malsmum, these types of threads bring out the real person behind the username, and gives everyone an idea of exactly who's who!


I agree. I don't always take part in these threads because you get dizzy going round in circles but I do have a read of the threads and it's often a good pointer as to who to avoid on the forum


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Jonesey said:


> Video's been removed due to copyright infringement. This makes him look scared of being found out and I hope people's imagination make it worse than if they actually saw it.


This is the same technique that the coward, Brad Pattison uses to silence his critics. It is really a false claim, since the law permits the uses of small sections for educational and criticism purposes.

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

All these posts go the same way.

"I love Cesar"/ "I hate Cesar" starts its off, which brings the two sides bashing heads. People against him back up what they say with or allude to evidence (scientific, large-scale research based) and those who like him stick to anecdotal experiences.

95% of what Cesar says is, IMO, flawed and unsupported. The remainder makes some sense but is either too vague that it's not even applied to his procedures or is just common sense- "Duh?!"

The facts are, most of the people who came up with 'his' methods and philosophies have recanted their earlier claims and agree that science-based, non-physical, non-pack theory methods are the safest, most effective and most humane. Also, people like Dunbar and Dr Sophia Yin used to practice physical methods (there's even some videos on Youtube with Dunbar using leash corrections) but have abandoned them in favour of more humane methods. Now, 'humane' does conjure up connotations of 'soft', and 'too gentle', but what really backs them up is the evidence that PRTmethods are more effective in fixing behavioural problems and the dogs, obviously, have a lot more fun.

CM is a sensationlist. He's found fame and, whilst people were changing there methods, he didn't want to change because he was doing so well. People liked him and, thus, believed what he had to say and took the methods as 'natural' or just 'tough love'. I think he will be spending most of his time now trying to keep his head above water.

For those who like him, I think if you take a step back, read research and position statements like those from the AVSAB (below) you'll understand why he isn't liked, how his show disguises things and what are the best methods. The dogs on the show appear to make improvements, but there is just no evidence that they do. In the video, most of the dogs were shocked by the kick, many growled and a couple even re-directed their fear straight onto Cesar (Husky). If people think he was just 'tapping' some of them, they need their eyes checked.

The whole point of redirecting a dog is to make them stop the behaviour they are doing to a more acceptabe behaviour e.g. saying 'sit' when a dog jumps up. Kicking a dog, making them show immediate deference, is instilling fear and can make aggression worse. Imagine you are sad and crying, and someone slaps you in the face. I bet you'd stop crying. But would you feel any better?

To help an aggressive dog, you don't take them within 10 feet of the eliciting stimulus. It's common sense.

This is an issue worth fighting for. If Cesar fans want to take the moral high ground, that's up to them. But I don't see arguing as degrading us in any way.

http://http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

http://http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

elledee said:


> I'm sure you don't. That's not the point I am arguing...


I'm not sure what you're arguing. I looked it up and you're getting a full day's lecture for your money. Almost seven hours. I think it's excellent value. If you do the early registration or book for both days you save 10 to 20 pounds. My puppy training course cost more than twice as much and excluding the lecture was eight hours in eight weeks. If I hire a behaviourist for an hour it costs more than this lecture. And please don't forget the cost of the venue, insurance, services, all the people that are paid to organize and run it, advertising and etc. that's coming out of the fees charged. The man's not pocketing a hundred pounds per person. And the evening lecture is only 15 pounds! I don't know how large the venues are, but looking at the big picture I don't think what he's charging is exorbitant at all. Sorry, but I can't see this man as being money grubbing. It's not a three hour rock concert, it's an educational seminar.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2011)

I am TOTALLY against violence in any shape manner or form against ANYTHING living because it worries me that irresponsible people can't set their own boundaries so I feel it's prudent to forbid it altogether.

Just my opinion.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

elledee said:


> You seem to know exactly what I'm arguing, you've just argued against it...  Going to a behaviourist is usually 1:1, and, if you were having a 1:1 with Ian Dunbar, £100 may well be a bargain, but, for just listening to him talk with another bunch of people, it's way over the top. You'll find there are plenty of different "acts" that charge less but have to find a venue, pay for musicians, fancy lighting, insurance, etc., but the tickets are far more reasonable. However, as I said earlier, he will charge what the market will bear, and there are evidently people who can afford his lectures, but many unfortunately that can't.
> 
> I see, from what someone above said, he also gives his seminars an "exclusivity slant" in that people can meet up with him and chat. A bit like after-dinner events. So, for around £100, people can say "I was chatting to Ian Dunbar...".
> 
> ...


So do you think there's anything wrong with Dunbar's 'business-like' approach? I am going to one his seminars (a full day) and having a chat with him afterwards, which I think is worth £100. It may be expensive, but I don't mind paying as what I am getting out of it is worth it to me. Just as I would happily see Van Morrison or Eric Clapton or Jeff Beck etc., etc., for £80 + quid. Do you also have a go at musicians who are expensive to go and see? I think it's a moot point, personally.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> I'm very impressed with his ability to make money, I have to give him that, even though I disagree with his decision to make his prices unaffordable for his very loyal, but more financially challenged, followers


Hmmmm, how much does it cost you to read the Dog Star Daily then?
What about Dogstardaily Free Downloads?

This is getting farcical. Are you saying that Canine Professionals are not entitled to aspire to a decent living and cover travelling costs etc?

Cesar kicks dogs, gets bitten and has a mass TV entertainment audience who then spend money on spinoffs believing that his ways are either the best, most effective or acceptable, when actually American Vets have been warned off the Cesar DW nonsense by the AVSAB.

Do you want your medicine from a qualified Doctor, or the Psychic Medication Network?

The argument that Dr Dunbar is being naive appearing between same covers as Cesar in the new book, is that doing so validates Cesar as an expert.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

elledee said:


> You seem to know exactly what I'm arguing, you've just argued against it...  Going to a behaviourist is usually 1:1, and, if you were having a 1:1 with Ian Dunbar, £100 may well be a bargain, but, for just listening to him talk with another bunch of people, it's way over the top. You'll find there are plenty of different "acts" that charge less but have to find a venue, pay for musicians, fancy lighting, insurance, etc., but the tickets are far more reasonable. However, as I said earlier, he will charge what the market will bear, and there are evidently people who can afford his lectures, but many unfortunately that can't.
> 
> I see, from what someone above said, he also gives his seminars an "exclusivity slant" in that people can meet up with him and chat. A bit like after-dinner events. So, for around £100, people can say "I was chatting to Ian Dunbar...".
> 
> ...


You forgot about the evening seminar for 15. You must not think much of him to refer to his lecture as 'listening to him talk with another bunch of people'. And you're only impressed with his ability to make money. It sounds more like a personal dislike for the man than anything else.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> So, either the posters couldn't afford to go, they just didn't have the money. Or they decided, despite what they were posting, that the money was better spent on other things, and they didn't feel his seminar and the chance to meet him was worth around £100, when it really came down to it. Which do you think it was?


Perhaps as a charitable experiment, you could offer to pay their travel costs and see if they can find the £100 admission fee and time to attend?

OK clicking through on the April UK tour Event (Palm Beach sounds lovely though), I got to a page offering lectures on DVD and such, for example Who Trains Whom - '94 Lecture by Dr. Ian Dunbar DV602 (120 minutes) at Price: £18.95.

Cheaper than the satelite TV monthly subscription. I really don't see Cesar as being any more affordable, than Dunbar.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> I'm impressed by his ability to make money, I don't admire the fact that *he does so by targetting solely people who can afford his prices.*


You clearly know absolutly nothing about him! He has spent his life contributing to the understanding of dog behaviour. He has spent many years conducting research and contributing to the sum knowledge of animal behaviour and health. He is not seeking to be a "personality" - he's primarly an academic. If he had wanted to get rich he would not have chosen to concentrate on the areas he has.

Amazing what a quick look at Wiki and Google Scholar can do. Eh?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I've just been on his wesite. Elledee, did you realise that the £100 is *for a full day's seminar? *It's not a "lecture" and for a seminar it's a very good rate. I have been responsible for organising training for people in the voluntary sector and have booked many seminars. I can assure you that £100 is extremely reasonable for the voluntary sector-let alone the commercial sector. My reading of the blurb is that these are not really directed at "ordinary" pet dog owners, but at professionals.

BTW, £15 an evening lecture is fantastic value!!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> You'll note I say above that I mention Ian Dunbar, but that I would feel the same about any trainers charging such high prices, so not sure why you are mentioning CM particularly... but no doubt you have your reasons


Of course, because this thread is the "Cesar kicking dogs" one, not the "Iain Dunbar is unaffordable" thread.

In the scheme of things, people can choose to pay or not to go to a seminar, those dogs just get kicked or lead yanked because their owners didn't know better or were too lazy to care for them properly.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> You clearly know absolutly nothing about him! He has spent his life contributing to the understanding of dog behaviour. He has spent many years conducting research and contributing to the sum knowledge of animal behaviour and health. He is not seeking to be a "personality" - he's primarly an academic. If he had wanted to get rich he would not have chosen to concentrate on the areas he has.
> 
> Amazing what a quick look at Wiki and Google Scholar can do. Eh?


Goodness, you know so much about this man! Friend of yours???


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> As an organiser of these events, Old Shep, you could perhaps tell me *why people are willing to pay 5 times as much to see Ian Dunbar in the flesh as to pay for a dvd which basically does the same thing. **What makes that £80 worth of difference?* Do people contributing to charities realise that their donations are going into the people who give seminars' pockets? What kind of voluntary sector are you talking about? Most of my donations go to small struggling dog charities, who can't afford the luxury of sending their volunteers to seminars where the seats are over £100 a pop, they spend it looking after the abused and neglected dogs that come into their care, and are often surviving day to day.
> 
> The seminar industry is very fast growing - business again - charging, as I said, what the market can bear... including it seems the voluntary sector market.
> 
> ...


Same reason people pay exhorbitant prices to see a famous singer in the flesh when they could get the same from a DVD, I expect. When Barbra Streisand did her farewell show at Wembley, at least 12 years ago, the tickets were over £500 each. You could have bought the DVD for £12.99.

We have already established that all that money does not go to Dr Dunbar, that it also has to cover costs.

Quite honestly I don't know why you keep harping on about how much it costs to go and see him. So what? If people want to see him, that is what they are willing to pay. £100 for what is on offer is not a lot of money and £15 for the just the evening is extremely cheap.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

First post

Enticed by the juicy title, bound to stir up passions, on opening video link, it's been removed - clicked to the last post and cannot see a connection between the opening thread and the end. 
Should this thread be removed/closed on the basis there is no 'evidence' to debate, note debate not slate and rant and rave at - I like to see what it is about before coming to an opinion.
The thread rested on it's opening video, it is no more, the thread has thus lost it's foundation for discussion.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

It's up on Youtube still just under "Cesar Millan kicking dogs (abuse)"


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

elledee said:


> Just think, if these 100 people put their £100 into a struggling dog charity, each one of these 3 days, that charity would have £30,000 to help the dogs. If the same people gave Ian Dunbar £50 for his seminar (he could hold it in a town hall and save money, and everybody could muck in together with tea, coffee and sandwiches), he would have £15,000 and so would the charity. Either of these scenarios would be a good outcome for the charity, don't you think? And Ian Dunbar wouldn't do that badly either.


Great idea why don't you put your suggestion to Ian Dunbar and get the answers you are looking for rather than posing these questions on an internet forum with no direct links to him 

If you have a gripe with the way Ian Dunbar conducts his business then perhaps, just an idea, you should speak to him about it rather than an internet forum.

I have absolutely no idea what the pricing of an Ian Dunbar seminar has to do with dogs being ill treated at the hands of a so called dog whisperer :blink:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

elledee said:


> I agree with you. It would be a good idea either to close, or split the thread... Also about the debating thing, far prefer that to what usually happens on CM threads...


I can't believe I've just read this. You are the one who has the most input on this thread and have took it so far off topic. :blink:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Old Shep
> Amazing what a quick look at Wiki and Google Scholar can do. Eh?





> Originally Posted by Chihuahua Angel
> Goodness, you know so much about this man! Friend of yours???


Did you not read my post? What did you not understand? I was pointing out that information was available on Wiki and Google Scholar (if you care to look) which would explain that Dr Dunbar is an academic 

Elledee.


> As an organiser of these events, Old Shep, you could perhaps tell me why people are willing to pay 5 times as much to see Ian Dunbar in the flesh as to pay for a dvd which basically does the same thing.


Firstly, I did not say I was an organisor of seminars, I said I was responsible for sourcing seminars suitable for my staff.
Secondly, your claim is rediculous. You may as well argue that universities should do away with lectures because they could just watch DVDs of them instead! A seminar is interactive and can also incorporate experiential learning (such as small groupwork). It is NOTHING like watching a DVD.



> Do people contributing to charities realise that their donations are going into the people who give seminars' pockets? What kind of voluntary sector are you talking about?


Participation in seminars is part of the ongoing training of staff. It is imperative in all professions that staff are up to date in their methods and that their views are challanged.
I worked in mental health and learning disability services and I can assure you that I would want anyone helping a relative of mine to be knowledgable and competent in what they do and say. Ongoing training is therefore essentail.
People who give charitable donations can very easily check how charities choose to spend their funding. The information is freely available. I have yet to meet a relative of someone recieving a service from a charity who complained that the staff were too well trained!



> my feeling is that he is targetting a specific audience, and isn't too concerned about the ordinary folk, who want to go, but can't afford to


Seminars are not normally targetted at the general public (though that does not necessarily preclude them)



> Most academics are fairly unknown outwith their own field.


Oh yeah? Brian Cox, Simon Singh,..there are too many to mention.



> What makes you think Ian Dunbar isn't rich? If you're making around £10,000 for a day's seminar (100 people at £100, for example), even taking into account overheads, and you do it over 3 days, how much money is that


It has already been explained to you about overheads etc. Do you even realise how much it costs to hire facilities for major events?
It is also very common for fees to be either waived or dramatically reduced for some groups booking places on seminars (in fact I have yet to come accross any that _don't_). These are not usually advertised as it is known by other professionals in the field. So my guess is that if, say, The Dog's Trust applied for places they would be much reduced (or even free).

You seem to be arguing about something which you have no knowledge about and have chosen to ignore the posts of others when they try to explain, which is a pity, as I feel that most people on this forum are keen to share their knowledge and to help to improve the (frankly woeful) quality of dog training more usually available.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I have absolutely no idea what the pricing of an Ian Dunbar seminar has to do with dogs being ill treated at the hands of a so called dog whisperer


Ditto.

Personally I don't care how much tickets for Ian Dunbar's seminars are, nor how he or any other professional conducts his business.

I *DO* care very much when certain individuals abuse animals for personal gain, and when they encourage (by means of their actions - disclaimers or not) others to do the same...

I *DO* care about all the dogs round the world suffering injuries as a result of leash corrections or kicking, pain, chronic stress and the resulting health problems, terror, and being dumped or destroyed because of behaviour problems caused by systematic abuse...

I *DO* care about the poor owners who genuinely know no better, and have to deal with behaviour problems caused or worsened by outdated methods, who are made to feel weak / soft / failures because their dogs "don't know who's boss", whose relationships with their dogs have deteriorated because they have been led to believe they are constantly at war with eachother, who feel they have no choice but to give up on their dogs because the prescribed methods are not working....

I *DO* care that the general public hero worship a man selling the behavioural equivalent of magic beans, whilst ignoring or refuting the real professionals who have science, solid evidence, study and experience to back them up.

Both Millan and Dunbar have made a vast difference to the lives of pet dogs. One for the better, one for the worse. I know which one I would prefer to make rich!!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

elledee said:


> The thing is it takes two to tango. I could have put my point, and people could not have responded, or said that's your opinion, and the thread moves on. You can't argue back, and then complain that the thread changes direction. It only needed someone to say "back to CM and the video again" and folk to start discussing the thread topic again, for things to return to the way they were. You seem to want it both ways.


And you seem to presume I want you to stop. I have nothing against discussing this; I do have an issue with you agreeing with people who disagree with the topic as, like you said, it takes two to tango- if you want the thread split or stopped, why don't you just ask? :blink:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> Newfie's mum, unfortunately, when people keep challenging your viewpoint, you do tend to have to keep repeating yourself, when you are debating the point. So, it's not that I am harping on, but I am debating the point I keep getting challenged on.
> 
> How much of the £10,000 a day, for 3 days, say, do you think Mr Dunbar, or any other trainer, making that kind of money from a seminar, takes home?
> 
> ...


Lots of people pay a fortune to see their favourite singer on stage, even though it has to be projected on to huge great screens because the artiste is too far away to actually see. Could be anybody up there. Perhaps it is the atmosphere they like so much? Who knows. There are very few singers I would turn out to see in the flesh, in fact the last time was about 10 years ago. I think the all day Ian Dunbar thing is aimed at trainers and would be trainers, not the general dog owner, and those sorts of people pay a lot more than that for seminars and talks with people not nearly so famous. It is all about learning when it comes to people like him.

I just don't see why you keep repeating yourself. It seems to me that you don't think Dr Dunbar should be making a lot of money out of his expertise, and with this I disagree. If he has the skills and the audience, why not use them? I would, and I am sure you would as well.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> The thing is it takes two to tango. I could have put my point, and people could not have responded, or said that's your opinion, and the thread moves on. You can't argue back, and then complain that the thread changes direction. It only needed someone to say "back to CM and the video again" and folk to start discussing the thread topic again, for things to return to the way they were. You seem to want it both ways.


I somehow do not think that a post of that nature would have stopped you coming back to an entirely different subject.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> I did suggest the thread be split...


Well, it's no good posting it on here. You have to ask the moderators direct for something like that.

In the meantime, let's get back to the video shall we? How can we stop this animal abuser from airing his barbaric, outdated, disproven ideas and his appalling lack of dog knowledge on international tv? Is there any hope? What happened to the petition to National Geographic that I signed last year?


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

Apparently there has been a facebook group set up recently (and apparently gaining a large popularity) to basically protest about CM being allowed to work in this country based on the animal welfare laws we have here 

Under section 3: The need to exhibit normal behaviour patterns 'All dogs should be trained to behave well, ideally from a very young age. Only use positive rewardbased training. Avoid harsh, potentially painful or frightening training methods'


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Unfortunately, because dogs can't talk, there doesn't seem to be any way of people proving that he is abusing dogs. If only dogs could talk, ey?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by MPH Entertainment


one clip was deleted - here is another: 
YouTube - 13. Cesar Millan kicking dogs (Abuse) 
the clips are all taken from TV-broadcast episodes, which were edited to their own standards before being aired.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Goodness, you know so much about this man! Friend of yours???


Dunbar has written a number of times about the various experiments & long-term research projects, 
gathering data, which he did with dogs living in a group-colony in a lab - who spent time with whom, who mated 
with whom, which dogs had a buddy bond, who deferred to whom, etc.

his schooling, research, training-business, books, etc, are all readily findable on the Web - simply by asking.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> First post
> 
> Enticed by the juicy title, bound to stir up passions, on opening video link, it's been removed - clicked to the last post and cannot see a connection between the opening thread and the end.


perhaps rather than read the *first* post, & the *last* post, U might try reading the thread - 
the part between #1 and the 4th page?

this is the *third time* i post a link to another version of the same set of out-takes - 
_____________________________________ 
one clip was deleted - here is another: 
YouTube - 13. Cesar Millan kicking dogs (Abuse) 
the clips are all taken from TV-broadcast episodes, which were edited to their own standards before being aired 
____________________________________


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

elledee said:


> It would be a good idea either to close, or split the thread...
> Also about the debating thing, far prefer that to what usually happens on CM threads...


is locking the thread the reason U began to post?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

It does seem bit fishy, when people I never saw posting before become such frequent "contributors" in a Dog Wrestler thread. But kind of amusing to see the angles and contortions taken up, to deflect away from St Cesar's behavioural problems.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sounds like this thread is getting a bit too personal and could do with being closed anyway - that's what usually happens and I think it's very clear we all agree to disagree on this one.  Fair do's!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> I only mentioned about Ian Dunbar's connection with Cesar Millan re his book


Hahaha! First you attacked the producer of the clip, saying it was legally iresponsible and would be punished.

Then there were all kinds of new angles, which I've debunked. Where a good point was made it got credit from some of us.

Now you're re-writing history of this thread.

The fact is, the irregular posters started complaining about tone of regular posters like lfl and such, presumably because folk strongly challenged their views.

This is a discussion forum, it is fun to discuss and debate things in a reasoned way; that people disagree with you and hold a different view is the whole point of a discussion.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Unfortunately, because dogs can't talk, there doesn't seem to be any way of people proving that he is abusing dogs. If only dogs could talk, ey?


But they can talk, with their body language. He can't understand a thing they have to say, and thinks it is something entirely different. I think this is the main danger of him being so widespread on the telly, that he is teaching people to read dog body language entirely wrong.

He is like that guy on 'ello 'ello, who thought he could speak French! Only that was a comedy, not a serious programme.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

elledee said:


> he made some subjective statements, which I felt could get him into legal trouble, and it seemed to me it would have been wise for him to do so. It is my opinion, which is what debate is about


I respect your opinion on that, but as I explained I don't think it's feasible for Cesar to draw more attention to it, because the media love a media legal story, and he'll be judged by public opinion; so St Cesar probably will suffer in silence to avoid the gravy train getting derailed.

The irregular/regular thing is purely because all the regulars know that CM the DW, is a topic likely to generate heat, but it's been done over and over, and we know it's a waste of time, but people just can't help chipping into it.

That explains some of the less serious tone and rushed replies, it's just not really an interesting debate, to those who practice modern scientifically researched Dog training & behaviour methods. Are they perfect and able to be improved? Almost certainly!

But St Cesar of the Dog Wrestling, is a throw back to past methods; he's featured devices that are outlawed in the UK, there's a reason for it and it's not just "animal welfare activists on the Internet" but the consensus opinion of best practices, and what causes unecessary suffering to animals.

Imagine the derision & legal case, Barbara Woodhouse would face today, if she repeated her famous "helicoptering" on TV?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> But they can talk, with their body language


They do, but the average viewer needs an interpreter.

I have found, some episodes where I had initial impression that Cesar was tough but fair, that I had been swayed by the music and glossy visuals and calm voice over. When I watch again soon after, I can tune that out and focus better on the dogs and pick up things, that I then find disturbing and make me quite frustrated that the show is even aired.

I still think, Cesar's better in total than what a lot of ppl do in practice, despite all the advice freely available, they just seem to feel they own the dog, and have the right to act like some medieaval tyrant.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> *They do, but the average viewer needs an interpreter.*
> 
> I have found, some episodes where I had initial impression that Cesar was tough but fair, that I had been swayed by the music and glossy visuals and calm voice over. When I watch again soon after, I can tune that out and focus better on the dogs and pick up things, that I then find disturbing and make me quite frustrated that the show is even aired.
> 
> I still think, Cesar's better in total than what a lot of ppl do in practice, despite all the advice freely available, they just seem to feel they own the dog, and have the right to act like some medieaval tyrant.


That is my point. You don't send a French speaker to interpret Russian, they need an interpreter who actually knows the language, not someone who makes it up as he goes along to make himself feel better. When a dog exhibits calming signals, he states that it is excitement or dominance, so that he can overcome it and make everyone think he is wonderful, when in fact there was nothing to overcome. Eventually the dog decides there is no point in giving his calming signals as they are not stopping the abuse, so he shuts down completely.

This is what I object to more than any of the old fashioned methods he uses, that he is misinterpreting these signals to make for a dramatic episode, and he doesn't care how much damage he is doing whilst he is at it.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I love how people say what amounts to "Well yes he might kick dogs sometimes, but look at how many he saves".

The Krays used to beat people to a pulp all the time, but they were lovely to their old Mum you know


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> I love how people say what amounts to "Well yes he might kick dogs sometimes, but look at how many he saves".
> 
> The Krays used to beat people to a pulp all the time, but they were lovely to their old Mum you know


Oh, yes, lovely to all the old ladies and children in the east end actually. Also lovely to all the celebrities they mixed with! I agree, and have said, one brutal kick, hanging, shock or anything else is one too many. No one who really cares about dogs would do this at all.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Honestly the way everyone goes on about him, it's like he does nothing but use his feet  there are so many progs where he offers good advice and so few where he use's the redirection and even then only a couple of times, nowhere near as often as people think.

This forum/member is constantly opening up threads on him and they all are the same. The same posts, the same people, the same outcome - like we don't all have our own minds to make up and need telling what we can see for ourselves - some who don't even watch his progs yet know so much about him - from a few clips, never seeing any other angle.

I dunno, at least we don't have this on the Mal forum, we've had a couple but in the three years i've been a member can count on one hand the amount of threads there have been on CM - maybe they can see it's a very moot point and we all differ in our opinions, so don't need to keep digging up the s*ite!

If Ian Dunbar can talk and work with the man, I can certainly watch him and make my own judgement on what he does too and regardless of all the pointless threads won't be swayed otherwise! :nono:


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I kinda agree. 17 pages long and Im still on the fence about CM!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Sounds like this thread is getting a bit too personal and could do with being closed anyway...


what is personal about asking if s/he wanted the thread locked? it's a reasonable question. 
the arguments changed with practically every post - i thought the _'poor sad fans, setting his prices far too-high... 
they can't all afford it!'_ was especially priceless :lol: what should Dunbar set his prices at, for a seat? 
a 6 to 8-hour day, plus lunch - is $10 apiece OK & buy one's own lunch, or $20 & a prix-fixe menu with a choice 
of one of 3 sandwiches & iced or hot tea, better?... 

the point is, the Dawg-Wrassler is piped into people's gullible brains in over-50 countries, now - 
vanishingly few pet-owners have any idea that his tools & methods are even questioned by credentialed pros, 
and they would not know Dunbar from Dodman, or Pryor from peach-pie - for those of us who recognize them, 
the opinions of AVSAB, the Brit Small-Animal Vet-Practitioners Assoc, CAABs and the American Humane Assoc 
matter a heckuva lot more than the opinion of a 16-YO boy, a 60-YO breeder of Poodles who grew-up on Woodhouse 
and still thinks choke-chains are the latest thing, or a 40-YO man with tattoos & metal inserts who backhands 
his own kids if they question his judgment - all 3 of whom think the Dawg-Wrassler is a great role-model. :nonod:

and that's what the divide comes down to - folks who recognize the difference between popularity on TV 
and reputable sources with genuine validity, who have behavioral science to support their statements' accuracy.

Cesar claims to 'work from instinct', which may be fine for him - but how do U transfer gut-hunch to another person? 
how can his 'instinct' plus childhood memories of free-roaming, semi-feral ranch dogs who lived outside & roamed at will, 
in rural Mexico from 1974 to about 1984 [ages 5 to 15] apply to pet-dogs who live indoors mostly in urban homes, 
in 2010 and beyond?

their ranch dogs did not HAVE TO tolerate strange-dogs - in fact, i would bet they cheered if their dogs beat the snot 
out of any unknown dogs who trespassed on their property, even if they did nothing but show up & look hungry. 
strange-dogs cannot be trusted around one's livestock & poultry, and poor people making a hardscrabble life 
in a rural area cannot afford to lose one hen, one lamb or one kid.

they also cannot afford or often GET TO decent vet-care - i would not be surprised to find that Cesar's family gave 
their stock & pets basic first-aid at home, and not much more; they recovered, or they didn't. This is not cruel, 
it's the reality of living in a place without a vet to treat the animals; people do what they can, and when it is obvious 
that poor old Bessy the milch-cow is not getting better, they don't have someone come inject the old beast - 
they slaughter her as concisely as possible, and sell, freeze, jerk-dry or eat as much as possible, & are thankful 
to Bessy for her long service, her milk, her calves & the rawhide they're drying for a hackamore.

putting a sick dog in a car & driving 2-hours or more one-way to be told they need medicines or a surgery they cannot 
afford, is a complete waste of time & resources - the kids need shoes, the family needs groceries, priorities are not 
the same as ours; *if we fail* to treat a dog for a fractured leg, we can be charged with cruelty; even today, 
if a stray dog on the Navajo reservation is taken in by a local family to help tend the sheep, & the dog is hit by a car 
driven by a drunk, nobody expects the family to take the dog off the reservation to seek expensive vet-care 
in the nearest town with a vet - if they do, their neighbors will think they are a bit strange about that dog; they won't 
be shunned, but eyebrows will be raised - their priorities will be questioned.

the world Cesar grew-up in still exists, but most of his fans & IMO *all of those* who buy his books, buy the DVDs, 
go to his performances, *do not live* in that world of rural working-poor, with land but not much else.

our dogs live in a very different reality, with completely different rules & expectations; they need to get along, 
not only with other dogs but with strangers, allow the vet to handle them, allow a groomer to comb-out tangles, 
cut their claws, blow-dry their petticoats, clean their ears & brush their teeth. 
our dogs are expected to walk down the street or into a crowded waiting-room and *not* hackle & growl. 
for Cesar's childhood dogs, no one would be surprised if they growled at a stranger who tried to handle them.

they'd be surprised if they didn't.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> ...17 pages long and Im still on the fence...


U can set the number of posts per page at 40 - then it's only 4. :thumbup:


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## McBenson (Mar 4, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Honestly the way everyone goes on about him, it's like he does nothing but use his feet  there are so many progs where he offers good advice and so few where he use's the redirection and even then only a couple of times, nowhere near as often as people think.:


Surely using your feet once is enough! 

Childline is set up to help abused children whose parents use the same "redirection" as CM.

Do you condone child abuse because it's not like the parents do nothing but use their feet?

Sometimes they might feed their children, take them to the zoo. There's so many times they appear to be loving parents. It might only be a couple of times they kick their kids in the stomach!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Honestly the way everyone goes on about him, it's like he does nothing but use his feet  there are so many progs where he offers good advice and so few where he use's the redirection and even then only a couple of times, nowhere near as often as people think.
> 
> This forum/member is constantly opening up threads on him and they all are the same. The same posts, the same people, the same outcome - like we don't all have our own minds to make up and need telling what we can see for ourselves - some who don't even watch his progs yet know so much about him - from a few clips, never seeing any other angle.
> 
> ...


The thing is, I used to like Cesar Millan and I must admit, he's the person that really got me interested in dogs. But as soon as I was immersed in the topic, I realised the controversy and read up on the science of learning theory and dog-dog social structures. I also read up and looked at body language, particularly calming signals, which dogs show repeatedly towards Cesar on the DW show. There really is so much evidence against him that, IMO, it shouldn't be a case of "Well, you go your way and I'll go mine" as it becomes preposterous to believe Cesar when you know the facts- or as near to facts as we can get in animal behaviour.

My problem with the dominance issue is that it takes people a big push to realise _why_ it is not a chosen viewpoint or interpretation of behaviour by professionals. You really need to get stuck into the debate and science side of things. But that's animal behaviour- we need to go with science to reduce the subjectivity. Cesar saying that "this is what happens in the wild" and giving a sharp touch with his leg may work briefly, but there is no evidence backing his methods or philosophies- there's a large amount of evidence against it.

The science should be more readily available and as "in your face" as the dominance stuff is to really counter-act what Millan is preaching. What I notice a lot at the moment is people only using dominance as an interpretation for those dogs that they can't understand. One trainer I heard said things like "dominance is very rare...pawing, jumping up etc., are not dominance, that's laughable" and I was thinking, "Thank you for having a brain cell". But he then said "I've only met one or two really dominant dogs- ones that were completely relaxed, playful and social with other people and other dogs, until they were forced to do something, then they just turned!". I think he just didn't understand why the dogs turned on him, so he thought that it must be dominance. It really is an easy default interpretation for people to use. My question is- if those dogs were so well behaved, why need to force them to do anything? And why would you force a dog to do anything period?


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

You know members have lost the plot when they are comparing Cesar to The Kray twins and comparing what Cesar does in re-direction with what some parents do to children, which is pretty sick in my opinion.

To those members that have stood up for their right to make their own choices about whether Cesar is this terrible person that certain members are making him out to be, I hold my hat off to you. I would have lost the will to live with some of the lame arguments on this thread.

I come back occasionally to see if the thread has progressed to a place where one can join in to have reasonable debate. It just isn't happening though. Just a bunch of members, patting each other on the back for their sarcasm and (in some cases, like the Kray Twins comments) for being foolish


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I completely agree that kicking even one dog, just once, would be bad enough.

But the violence isn't just an occassional thing - regardless of whether CM is dealing with one of his "red zone" human aggressive dogs, or with things like fears, leash pulling, jumping up etc. he almost always uses violence as his first resort.

As can be seen from the clips posetd on this thread, there have been many, many incidences of him kicking dogs.

Almost every dog on his show is wearing some kind of correctional (i.e. pain inducing and / or airway restricting) collar - whether that is a choke, slip, prong or his own Illusion collar. Leash corrections are frequent, as is the use of brute force (eg dragging dogs around).

Scruffing and alpha rolls take place on a very regular basis.

Less frequently he resorts to more extreme tactics - including electric shock, and hanging dogs until they virtually pass out. Flooding could also be considered an extremely aversive method, although it is not necessarily violent in its application.

On a similar note, even when CM does not use physical violence, he still relies a lot on intimidation - deliberately confronting dogs head on, behaving in a threatening manner, and in many cases goading the dogs into making mistakes in order to punish them. I have seen a number of cases where the dog in question shows obvious anxiety / fear of CM even before he lays a finger (or foot!) on it.

There is no question that dogs "suffer" at this man's hands - there are countless cases of dogs displaying signs of distress, in some cases the most obvious symptoms of outright terror.

Quite honestly, if someone physically assaulted my dog and caused it to cower, shake and wet itself I would be livid!

And let us not forget the most important issue here - all this violence and intimidation is completely unnecessary!

IF it were genuinely a case of either resort to harsh tactics or the dog dies, because absolutely nothing else would work, then I may feel differently.

But that is simply not the case. There is plenty of evidence that humane alternatives are not only safer and kinder, they are also more effective and less likely to have fallout. 
CM - like every dog owner / trainer / handler / behaviourist etc has a choice. He could use humane methods. He chooses not to.

*Let me reiterate that point - CM chooses to hurt and scare dogs.*


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels - can I please just respond to your post. I see that you dislike the comparison betwen the likes of CM and the Krays, or CMs "redirection" with abusing kids. I would like to try to explain.

Whenever CM gets discussed there are always people who say that while they do not agree with everything CM does, he also comes out with some good stuff.

This can be said of every human being who ever lived! We all do stupid stuff, and most have been cruel at some point, in some way, but at the same time no person is 100% evil. 

I don't doubt that the Krays, like many other distasteful people, had their fans, ther friends - people they were good to. I don't doubt that they did some good things in their lives.
The question we tend to ask about people is does the good outweigh the bad or vice versa?

With CM... on the "good" side - yes, he has shown people that any dog can be helped / trained. He encourages exercise and discapline. 
But on the "bad" side - he preaches a mixture of theories disproven decades ago and completely made up mumbo jumbo, which he presents as facts. He frequently uses violence and intimidation, causing pain, fear, stress etc in the process. By means of his fame (the show, the books etc) he has encouaraged such behaviour in countless dog owners and trainers - leading to far more dogs being abused than he could ever harm himself. He makes claims about canine behaviour and body language that are best naieve, at worst downright lies.

For those of us who fall into the "anti-CM" camp - the bad massively outweighs the good.

As for the comparison to kids...

At least one person has already been prosecuted for using an electric shock collar on a child - I believe they were done for child abuse. Yet it is ok to use them on a dog?
If you were to put a collar around a child's neck and yank it around, you would be arrested.
If you were to use your hands or a noose of some sort to shut off a child's air supply, you would expect to spend a lengthy spell in prison.
If you were to walk down the street "redirecting" your child by jabbing a foot into its abdomen, guess what? You would be arrested!
If you approached someone else's child in such a threatening manner that the child screamed and wet itself you would probably be sued - if not knocked out by the childs parents!

Yet CM does this to dogs every day. I feel the comparisson is warranted.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> You know members have lost the plot when they are comparing Cesar to The Kray twins and comparing what Cesar does in re-direction with what some parents do to children, which is pretty sick in my opinion.
> 
> To those members that have stood up for their right to make their own choices about whether Cesar is this terrible person that certain members are making him out to be, I hold my hat off to you. I would have lost the will to live with some of the lame arguments on this thread.
> 
> I come back occasionally to see if the thread has progressed to a place where one can join in to have reasonable debate. It just isn't happening though. Just a bunch of members, patting each other on the back for their sarcasm and (in some cases, like the Kray Twins comments) for being foolish


Or maybe you don't like it because you are the minority?

No one is being abusive, rude, foolish, or whatever melodramatic interpretation you have for the evidence that's against Cesar. To be honest, the topic has mostly been about Dunbar!

If there's so many people against him- why don't you take the time to find out why? It isn't difficult. You'll find that there is no lame arguments- the lame arguments belong to Cesar fans and his (brainwashed- not their fault) followers.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Or maybe you don't like it because you are the minority?
> 
> No one is being abusive, rude, foolish, or whatever melodramatic interpretation you have for the evidence that's against Cesar. To be honest, the topic has mostly been about Dunbar!
> 
> If there's so many people against him- why don't you take the time to find out why? It isn't difficult. You'll find that there is no lame arguments- the lame arguments belong to Cesar fans and his (brainwashed- not their fault) followers.


I'd like to congratulate you for a well thought out, balanced post but as it's not, I won't:.

Seriously, when you get out of the playground; I'll take part in an adult debate

Please don't tell me about "finding out why so many people are against him" - I've heard it all, about the "violence" and the other ridiculous comments made. I've argued it until I'm blue in the face but, still, the same old people say the same old waffle!

As for your comment about being in the minority, please.......don't kid yourself There are many members that just can't be bothered. I see their point. No point banging your head up a brick wall, is there:mad2:

I'd already decided to bow out but when I read the Kray Twins comment, I couldn't believe my eyes..................


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> Chihuahua Angels - can I please just respond to your post. I see that you dislike the comparison betwen the likes of CM and the Krays, or CMs "redirection" with abusing kids. I would like to try to explain.
> 
> Whenever CM gets discussed there are always people who say that while they do not agree with everything CM does, he also comes out with some good stuff.
> 
> ...


If you walked down the street doing these things to dogs, you would have several people phoning the RSPCA.



Chihuahua Angels said:


> I'd like to congratulate you for a well thought out, balanced post but as it's not, I won't:.
> 
> Seriously, when you get out of the playground; I'll take part in an adult debate
> 
> ...


But you haven't argued it, nor has anyone who still think CM is the best thing since sliced bread. All I have read are "oh, but it doesn't kick dogs often" or "I am still a fan" or speculation that all the dogs he "rehabilitates" were on their way to be pts. I have not read a single piece of evidence to support his methods, whereas there has been loads of evidence in support of positive reward based training and in the need to read a dog's body language.

I think the analogy to the Kray twins was very accurate, having grown up in London when they ruled the east end. People thought they were great, because they kept the vulnerable safe. There were no old ladies being mugged, no child abusers, and a lot of people were thoroughly outraged when they were giving life. The fact is they were thugs and gangsters, vicious and immoral.

I still think it is sad that they only let Reggie out because he was dying, whilst child molesters and the like only get a few years at most.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Hmmmm............let's see - the Krays killed people, many people = Cesar Millan kills dogs, many dogs. Now that smacks of extrmism to me.

Since that is apparently quite an accurate comparison, i'd like to see the proof in that statement, if there isn't any then this thread is becomming very commical indeed, as are the posters!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I'd like to congratulate you for a well thought out, balanced post but as it's not, I won't:.
> 
> Seriously, when you get out of the playground; I'll take part in an adult debate
> 
> ...


In fact, you said you were going to "bow out" ages ago, in a much earlier post, but you didn't...fancied coming back to the playground?

I'm not talking about the violence that Millan uses, I'm talking about the science behind why he isn't liked- the real evidence. I mean finding out what dominance actually is, how it is kept in place, studying learning theory, learning about the other proposals to pack theory (Immediate Moment theory, Resource Holding Potential). There's a lot more to it than saying "Cesar is being violent, therefore he must get off the stage". I can send you many articles that proves dominance hierarchies and positive punishment do not work and that Millan's show is mostly fabricated.

It's very naive to call the evidence against him "ridiculous".


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Hmmmm............let's see - the Krays killed people, many people = Cesar Millan kills dogs, many dogs. Now that smacks of extrmism to me.
> 
> Since that is apparently quite an accurate comparison, i'd like to see the proof in that statement, if there isn't any then this thread is becomming very commical indeed, as are the posters!


I have read many articles about dogs who have had to be pts _after_ CM has rehabilitated them. Dogs who got even more aggressive than they were before. There are no follow ups, no further commentary on how these poor dogs are getting on, as there is with Victoria Stilwell's clients. Even on the same show, it shows the family and dogs three weeks later, and I have also seen shows a year later, following up on the dogs she has helped. I would like to see something like that on DW's show, quite frankly. Proof that his methods might have helped instead of hindered. Any chance?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think it's getting rather funny actually, people clutching at straws. Worth a look now and then just for the comedy value!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

elledee said:


> Gosh, this thread seems to be getting very extreme - and a bit disrespectful to any of victims of the Krays. I haven't contributed any further, as once posters get personal, I make a point of not debating, as the thread inevitably deteriorates very quickly. I popped in to see if it had, and, with the Krays being brought into the debate, it apparently has.


The Krays' victims, at least the ons who ended up dead, were gangsters and killers themselves, so I certainly don't feel I owe them any respect.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I think it's getting rather funny actually, people clutching at straws. Worth a look now and then just for the comedy value!


I love this moral high ground people take when they can't stand the heat. What am I (or anyone else) clutching at straws about? One analogy with the Kray twins (which I do think is a bit extreme) and people use this to bash others. The reason this thread has gotten out of hand is because you have, on the one hand, people making supported statements about the Dog Whisperer and on the other, you have people making Mickey Mouse excuses for him, based on no evidence. This is bound to cause argument.

I want a reasonable discussion- so why don't you give some reasonable evidence for your arguments FOR Cesar, and we'll take it from there.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

The people who decry Cesar are the ones clutching at straws? Seriously?? 

If anyone is comedic on this thread, it's the Cesar fans with their fingers in their ears, going "Lalalalala-I-don't-care-what-anyone-says-about-actual-FACTS-I-still-think-Cesar-is-lovely-lalalalalalala"


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Can we stick to the points and not get into the 'you said', 'he said' 'she said' territory. No personal insults/remarks about other posters opinions please.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm not even we sure we ARE debating CM any more - I haven't seen much arguing "for" Cesar on this thread, or even anyone debating the alternatives. It seems to have come down to people simply criticising the way in which others are posting....

As such, I would like to ask some questions to those who are "for" CM, or at least on the fence, in order to stimulate some debate again...

1) Would you deny that CM uses violence? If so, please explain how his methods can be deemed non-violent.

2) Do you believe that CM has a sound understanding of animal behaviour, learning theory and canine body language? If so, please explain why his opinions appear to be at odds with those of the scientific community.

3) Do you agree with Cesars take on dominance theory - including dogs showing dominance over people / inanimate objects / light, the importance of eating first, walking in front, etc.? On what basis do you believe this theory to be accurate?

4) Do you believe that CMs harsh methods are acceptable because there is no alternative, or that his methods are not harsh at all and there is nothing objectionable about them?

5) Do you believe (in a general sense) that it is morally wrong to cause animals unnecessary suffering? 

I think that should do to be getting on with, hopefully someone will answer!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Colette said:


> I'm not even we sure we ARE debating CM any more - I haven't seen much arguing "for" Cesar on this thread, or even anyone debating the alternatives. It seems to have come down to people simply criticising the way in which others are posting....
> 
> As such, I would like to ask some questions to those who are "for" CM, or at least on the fence, in order to stimulate some debate again...
> 
> ...


No thanks, I made my opinion clear in psosts 43, 46, 48, & 51 and don't intend answering a questionaire when i've already stated my views on CM. There are plenty of other threads to read on here with people asking for help and advice which deserve the attention.

Anyone who likes CM has every right to do so, as does anyone who doesn't. To take this thread any further is a waste of time and not necessary, as no one is going to agree - as i'd said earlier.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

elledee said:


> What is on offer for £100 that you can't get from a dvd - just the "in the flesh" thing?


Its so other dog trainers who want to extract as much money as possible out of naive dog owners can announce I have personally attended the seminars of Dr Ian Dunbar

You see it carries much more kudos than saying I watched the DVD innit :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> As for your comment about being in the minority, please.......don't kid yourself There are many members that just can't be bothered. I see their point. No point banging your head up a brick wall, is there:mad2:


Quite :001_smile:


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Ive recently realiesed I actually do that kicky thing to my lot!!
(sounds awful doesnt it???) When Im walking them if they stop paying attention to where they are going they tend to wander in front of my feet resulting in me painfully squashing paws or just booting them into orbit. I found the best way to get them focused was to touch my foot to them when they got in the way. It wasnt a kick but they thought "oh, Im in the way, better move back". 
It only occurred to me reading this thread that I was doing what CM does. I should also say that years later my dogs arent scared of me or anybody else and to this day dont know that my foot isnt 'accidently' coming towards them!!
Im not pro or con CM. Still 'meh!' on the subject. Just thought it was interesting!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> Ive recently realiesed I actually do that kicky thing to my lot!!


Me too and they love me to bits, as I do them.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

So still no evidence from the pro-Cesar lot? That's surprising.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Ive recently realiesed I actually do that kicky thing to my lot!!
> (sounds awful doesnt it???)


Nope 

Lots of people do it, its not "Kicking" just the same as I take a hawthorn stick with me which I use for all sorts of things including a tap with it to "grab attention" but I would not sooner "hit" or "beat" them with it :nono: than stick needles in my eyes.

No fear of anyone, just hoochy poochy luuuuuuuuuuv alround :tongue_smilie:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

This might shock some people, but I do understand the concept of using a touch solely to distract / redirect a dog - whether that is a tap with a finger or a toe. 
But this should be nothing more than that - a distraction, a touch - there should be no pain or distress caused. In some of those clips of CM doing it the dogs were clearly kicked a couple of feet to the side, and at least one or two of them actually yelped. In many cases the dog should not a response not of "oh, what was that" but of fear. To me that suggests that in his case, CM is kicking as a punishment, not a distraction. In other words, with the intention of causing fear, pain or both.
Secondly, if it is only a redirection thing - why does he aim for the sensitive part - the abdomen unprotected by bone or lots of muscle? Why not a tap on say the rump, where its just a muscle tap and less likely to hurt?

Malmum - fair enough, if you don't want to answer that's up to you. I just thought on a thread that is supposedly debating CM it would be nice / productive to actually do so.

I have re-read the posts you mentioned, and aside from your thoughts on the kicking being a redirection (and presumably therefore not an act of violence, i.e. question one) I can't find anything to suggest your views on anything else.

I think it is obvious that I am in the anti CM camp, and that I hold very strong views on the matter.... but I honestly do not understand how some people can watch CM and not be concerned, or even actively enjoy it. I asked those particular questions for that reason - I genuinely do not understand how I can watch him and feel disgusted, angry, etc and someone else can watch and be impressed. Non dog owners, or people of a violent disposition maybe - but not people that I would otherwise believe to be "dog lovers". Just makes no sense to me.

Edit to add - Malmum, what I'm trying to say is that I do think you are a dog lover, and I do not believe you abuse your dogs or anything of the sort. Which is why I don't understand why you don't see what I (and various others here) see when watching CM.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> So still no evidence from the pro-Cesar lot? That's surprising.


Those pro CM cant be ar*ed to quote pages and pages from Google 

They could, but wont and Im not pro or other wise TBF!

I go on my years of experience with dogs and common sense, I dont need to prove anything to you even if I could be bothered. :smile:

I will say this though, I have seen many times one of my dogs totally T bone the other at high speed, like 35kg moving at, at least 25mph and sent him 4 in the air followed by a good roll without so much as a batted eye lid,let alone pain and fear its just all in a days work for dogs. 

You do know they are not ikkle babies dont you


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Those "pro CM" cant be ar*ed to quote pages and pages from Google
> 
> They could, but wont and I'm not pro or other wise TBF!
> 
> ...


That's because your dogs are skilled in dog-dog communication. Dogs play rough all the time and understand what each other mean by it if they have had positive experiences with it in the past. That doesn't mean, however, that they understand humans when they become physical. Humans use completely different body postures, many of which are frightening to a dog. Using the 'touch' technique is a prime example. The dog's not learning to do a different, more reinforcing behaviour. All it's learning is to not do a specific behaviour because they have this irritating prod. But when you are not around, the dog will happily perform this behaviour as it hasn't been taught anything but that doing it around you is 'dangerous'.

Years of experience is fine and we need common sense when it comes to understanding dogs (something Cesar doesn't use at all), but we also need to take into account what science tells us. Our own observations won't tell us everything.

I don't replicate or copy things I find on Google. I regurgitate things I have read in published research, that have been replicated and shown to reliable of randomisation.

P.S. If you're not going to prove anything to people, why even comment?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I do see what you see on some things, have said in the past that I would never drag a large dog (St Bernard it was) up stairs just to get it to overcome it's fears, in fact my problem is keeping them down, lol. I do see that making a dog face a rabbit so as it doesn't chase them is to my mind ridiculous, as that's what dogs do and I do see some owners who to me shoudln't even have dogs, as they have absolutely no idea how to treat a dog and what it's nature is. Like I said previously, taking a dogs canine teeth out and filing down others, so as when it bites it doesn't hurt (advice by a vet apparently) is disgusting, CM thought so too and took the dog himself. I also see how some people may try to copy CM's techniques and make a situation worse or even abusive. But I also see some things that I can relate to myself, like my body language and how even though I think i'm relaxed i'm actually not, how fussing over Flynn at certain times is totally wrong and rewarding bad behaviour. I don't wholly agree with all the things he does and I use other trainers advice too. What I do think is that even though I went training with Flynn (I always mention Flynn as he's the challenge the others are not) if I had seen CM when he was small there are things I wouldn't have done. I always avoided anything that scared Flynn, actually thought he would grow out of it  but if i'd watched CM I would have taken him through his fears, now I have a 57kgs dog that if he doesn't want to go somewhere or if he see's another dog is particularly hard for me to handle. Although i'd been training with Flynn and my trainer/behaviourist is a good one, I was not told that Flynn should not go anywhere near outside on his walk until he is totally calm, sitting with an open door and not trying to get out at all. This is something i've done since seeing CM and I have a Mal who walks perfectly to heel - now. For that, at least i'm eternally grateful - it wasn't heel work that achieved this, although i'd done many long sessions trying to master it, it was watching CM do it.
Yes there are prong collars, shock collars, electric fencing but they are not often used, more often than not taken off. Yes I have seen him "kick" a dog which i've felt was a little too hard but again, no harm has come of it - the dog hasn't walked away limping or sat yelping - thank god.
I think because I have a breed that are particularly hard to train in the conventional way, some of CM's methods have worked for me, including the "back kick" if that's what you want to call it, element of surprise which stops them in their tracks. No way is it hard, it couldn't be Flynn has had a hip replacement so do you really think i'd kick him in that area and do more damage? It doesn't have to be hard, it's a touch with your foot and the reason some jump is due to surprise, something's touched them when they didn't think anything was even there - more of a "where did that come from"?

I love my dogs like babies, you only have to look at some of my posts to see that clearly but I can't allow them to walk all over me and at 7 1/2 stone I have to keep them under strict control at times, if that means the occasional assertion then so be it. The last thing I want to be is an owner who doesn't control a large dog and lets it run riot and with so many Mals in rescue at around the one year, it's a shame others don't do the same as me, even if it could be construed as following CM, far better than putting them into rescue IMO.

At the end of the day they are dogs and are far stronger than people seem to think!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> That's because your dogs are skilled in dog-dog communication.
> 
> P.S. If you're not going to prove anything to people, why even comment?


You are so right.lets now apply this to the dogs on/off lead and the keep away debate in the future, something I think I may have locked horns with you on in the past

Im not going to argue the other points in you post, only to say from this *Dogs play rough all the time* and it would be fair to say that a touch of the heal/foot on the dogs side causes no physical harm what so ever?

My argument being this People are saying on here "why not "do it in another part of the body" etc ^^^^^^ >> 35kg at 25mph in the ribs and its all fun :


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

What I have said before is: I wish the alternatives to dominance and force-based, aversive, positive punishment based training (and, yes, this means using touch techniques too) were much more 'in your face' and accessible as the dominance stuff.

The bottom line is, we don't need to use aversives to train; it's that simple. Asserting people's authority in the conventional "I'm in charge, I'll raise my voice at you etc." does not teach the dog anything and will only serve to suppress a behaviour. What's more, you'll need to continue asserting this 'authority' to maintain any stability. There's easier ways.

People see the rift in dog training as if you're not with Cesar Millan, you think dogs are little babies covered in bubble wrap. This is not the case. It is true that some owners treat their dogs like this and reinforce every inappropriate (to humans) behaviour, but real PRT is about reinforcing good behaviour, using constructive, negative punishment, shaping and refining behaviours and phasing out the need for food reinforcers early on and using the natural behaviours that reinforce dogs as ultimate rewards. This is science-based dog training and may sound boring, very advanced and convoluted at times- but it really isn't. The principles are easy. If touching a dog doesn't hurt a dog like CM's back-kick, I couldn't care less. The fact is, the dog is not learning something well enough and, through more scientifically proven methods, we can actually teach alternative behaviours that the dog finds more reinforcing. 

On a harsher note, dogs don't love people. They don't see us as family nor do they want to cuddle up to us at night because they want to make us happy. They are social opportunists and are completely selfish- as are all species. They do the things they do because they are reinforcing to them. The art of living with dogs and training them to fit in with the human world is in controlling and regulating the things that are reinforcing them. Not to assert any kind of authority over them specifically. 

I just wish the average owner would find a desire to use these methods with their dogs rather than resort to a TV programme or out-dated-methods.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> You are so right……….lets now apply this to the "dogs on/off lead" and the "keep away" debate in the future, something I think I may have locked horns with you on in the past
> 
> Im not going to argue the other points in you post, only to say from this *"Dogs play rough all the time"* and it would be fair to say that a touch of the heal/foot on the dogs side causes no physical harm what so ever?
> 
> My argument being this People are saying on here "why not "do it in another part of the body" etc ^^^^^^ >> 35kg at 25mph in the ribs and its all fun :


I'm not completely sure what you're asking to be honest, could re-word it?

EDIT: Actually, I think I get it now. And my reasoning stays the same. Dogs are dogs- through complex communication systems they can have great fun by being incredibly rough. That is not to say, however, that a dog who has had negative experiences with other dogs and has had limited and deprived socialisation will like to engage in rough play as soon as it means another dog. And many times this is why aggression and threatening displays are seen at these times- because the dog is becoming anxious through fear of the unknown.

But the reasoning for the touch technique has two strands: 1) CM doesn't use only a touch- he uses force and on occasions dogs have growled at him or, in an episode where he resorted to choking a Husky, redirected their anxiety onto him in the form of aggression 2) touching a dog to startle them in your meaning is not an effective training method as it doesn't teach a dog to stop wanting to perform a behaviour. If you 'touch' a dog every time it jumps onto a counter, it will think "I won't do it when she's around" but will do it when you're not. This has been proven. We need to teach dogs alternative, more reinforcing behaviours.

What is more, even if a dog is just 'startled' by a touch, if that is performed countless times, over and over, the dog will soon get annoyed by it and will either 1) learn to ignore it as it is not more reinforcing than the desired behaviour (just like Skinner found with electric shocks) or 2) learn to display threatening signals to show discomfort. This is why it is ill-advised to use these methods especially for aggression cases.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum, The point everyone is trying to make is that he does not understand dogs and does a lot of things for effect, which is detrimental to the dogs involved. All his comments about calm energy and being in the right frame of mind, is correct, I won't deny that, but I don't think you can take these parts and ignore all the other stuff that he does just to make a dramatic effect.

I certainly think that "taking a dog through his fears", is all wrong. When it comes to your dog, yes, he would have been better off meeting other dogs on a small, graduating level, which is not the same as flooding him with loads of other dogs, is it?

My dog, as lots know, has always been scared of the blaster and I really need to use it on him. The first couple of times he saw he ran away and hid in the bathroom and refused to come out, and that was when it was switched off. I could have held on to him, made him sit while I forced him into it, but instead I have left him till eventually he has come outside of his own accord and watched while I do the other dog. He has even got a bit closer while I am using it. All this week I have left it out on the kitchen floor, and he has been having a sniff at it and has started to walk past without even noticing. Tomorrow I am going to try to use it. If he reacts badly, I will have been put back a few steps, but that's ok. Eventually he will accept it I am sure, but he would not have done if I had forced him into it, he would have remained scared.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> real PRT is about reinforcing good behaviour,


That's quite true and does work but sometimes you don't have good behaviour to reinforce, that's where a little dominance works - well it has for me anyway and it actually hasn't had to be constantly repeated, i'm pleased to say. There are occasions where dominance won't work, it won't work with Flynn and other dogs because I believe he is fear aggressive, so for that I use positive reinforcement - which so afar is working quite well. However my trainer doesn't use positive reinforcement with Flynn and other dogs, she expects respect and he gives it to her - beyond me though as I know i've spoiled him a bit with too many cuddles, so he knows what he can get away with and does. 

Newfiesmum - I agree with what you are doing with the blaster, Kali has been scared of the hair dryer since a pup and I tried many different approaches. She see's the other dogs get dried and has done for over five years but still runs if she see's it, well she did but I did use it on her, I just didn't give her the opportunity to hide by closing the door and matter of factly held her collar and dired her - after all these years of trying to do it calmly, I still did it calmy, no anger or frustration and she accepted it. Now how can that be bad? she no longer fears it and doesn't leave the room - she's not keen but what a milestone! This is something I did beause I saw CM, if I hadn't she would be just as scared now as she's always been and living in fear of something can't be good, especially as she needs to be dried properly after a bath.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> That's quite true and does work but sometimes you don't have good behaviour to reinforce, that's where a little dominance works - well it has for me anyway and it actually hasn't had to be constantly repeated, i'm pleased to say. There are occasions where dominance won't work, it won't work with Flynn and other dogs because I believe he is fear aggressive, so for that I use positive reinforcement - which so afar is working quite well. However my trainer doesn't use positive reinforcement with Flynn and other dogs, she expects respect and he gives it to her - beyond me though as I know i've spoiled him a bit with too many cuddles, so he knows what he can get away with and does.


But this is the beauty of PRT and is the core point many people miss: *there's always something to reinforce*. Dominance theory is a myth and what you think is dominance is almost certainly not. You're trainer who doesn't use positive reinforcement- what does she use then? Expecting respect is a little backward. Dogs don't know that they have to walk on a loose lead, interact with dogs only when allowed, SIT amongst greeting people. These are not innate behaviours so we can't expect anything. We have to teach these behaviours.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

She has told me that at Flynns age I shouldn't be using treats now, she just jerks his lead with a "hey" and he does what she wants. Obviously she knows what she's doing and has the confidence to back it up, so maybe that's why she gets him to behave. She has told me all I need is confidence in myself and the rest will follow. Because of my fear of other dogs and Flynns reaction, I can't bring myself to do it, so still use treats. She isn't a CM fan by the way but has been training for over 25 years, is a behaviourist and well respected in the show world for her ringcraft training - so not a novice by any means.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I wonder why she's not a fan of Cesar Millan? Honestly. She sounds very similar. Anyway, all I can say is that dogs do listen to these kind of corrections, but don't have fun doing so and don't learn during them. This is a classic case of a dog seeing a person as 'dangerous' and, thus, not doing it. If she was such a good trainer, she could have the dog doing a behaviour for anyone- not just her. Christ, I would listen to someone if they put a lead on me and kept jerking it too.

Why does she advise you against using treats? :blink: You don't need to use treats if you don't want to. You can use toys, verbal praise, loads of cuddles, letting him meet another dog, letting him retrieve or play a game of tug of war, let him jump up on the couch etc., etc. These are all reinforcers; it's about learning how to use them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> She has told me that at Flynns age I shouldn't be using treats now, she just jerks his lead with a "hey" and he does what she wants. Obviously she knows what she's doing and has the confidence to back it up, so maybe that's why she gets him to behave. She has told me all I need is confidence in myself and the rest will follow. Because of my fear of other dogs and Flynns reaction, I can't bring myself to do it, so still use treats. She isn't a CM fan by the way but has been training for over 25 years, is a behaviourist and well respected in the show world for her ringcraft training - so not a novice by any means.


Lead jerking is just as outdated as dominance theory. It should not be necessary and can damage a dogs neck. At his age he shouldn't be needing treats? Sorry, but although treats should be phased out, they should not be phased out completely or you will achieve an extinction burst. If the dog thinks he just might get something, he will co-operate, but once he realises there is never going to be anything on offer, he will give up.

You can also use a lure to get the right behaviour, to start with, then once the behaviour is marked by praise or treats or whatever, it is there to stay. I appreciate that some dogs are more strong willed than others, come downright stubborn, but none of them want to dominate their humans. He co-operates with the trainer because lead jerking hurts.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Id always prefer to use treats and cuddles for training coz Im just not a confident dog owner. CM does seem to have a knack with dogs, even before all his 'torture techniques' kick in! Problem is sometimes I doubt wether the owners can carry on with that level of confidence on their own.
Plus CM sometimes does admit failure. He doesnt call it that...he just suggests the dog is wrong for the family, takes it to his centre and replaces it with a calmer dog from his pack!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> Id always prefer to use treats and cuddles for training coz Im just not a confident dog owner. CM does seem to have a knack with dogs, even before all his 'torture techniques' kick in! Problem is sometimes I doubt wether the owners can carry on with that level of confidence on their own.
> Plus CM sometimes does admit failure. He doesnt call it that...he just suggests the dog is wrong for the family, takes it to his centre and replaces it with a calmer dog from his pack!!


yes, he has a way with dog - a way of scaring them half to death.:nono:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I must admit I'm not sure why a trainer would bring a dogs age into the equation.... obviously using treats in training is something that should be phased out fairly quickly. However, the idea is to phase out treats once a dog understands the desired behvaiour and complies. Then they can be gradually reduced, in such a way as to improve the behaviour (ie shaping) until they are no longer required. And of course, other rewards are brought in in place of treats.

It is a matter of the individual dog learning an individual task - not about age. I mean, some pups can be phased off food rewards very early - but a second hand dog a few years old with no training may well benefit from treats in the early stages.

I am also not convinced that a dog is working out of "respect" when the handler in question is giving leash corrections. this isn't about respect, it is about punishment. It also explains why the trainers efforts have not helped with you, as the owner, handling Flynn in similar circumstances (he fears corrections form her - not you).

(BTW, thanks for taking the time to explain your views - much appreciated and I understand where you are coming from.  )


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> I wonder why she's not a fan of Cesar Millan? Honestly. She sounds very similar. Anyway, all I can say is that dogs do listen to these kind of corrections, but don't have fun doing so and don't learn during them. This is a classic case of a dog seeing a person as 'dangerous' and, thus, not doing it. If she was such a good trainer, she could have the dog doing a behaviour for anyone- not just her. Christ, I would listen to someone if they put a lead on me and kept jerking it too.
> 
> Why does she advise you against using treats? :blink: You don't need to use treats if you don't want to. You can use toys, verbal praise, loads of cuddles, letting him meet another dog, letting him retrieve or play a game of tug of war, let him jump up on the couch etc., etc. These are all reinforcers; it's about learning how to use them.


She does get dogs to listen to other's she was a trainer on The Underdog Show on Sky and trained dogs for the owners, who had to work them on the prog. She does use treats when training but says Flynn should be past that now as he's three, always uses them for pups/tricks/ringcraft but says they shouldn't need them for everyday things like lead walking, not by the time they are three anyway, I can see what she means - it's kinda Flynn only does things for me for a treat - no treat no attention! Jerking lead has somehow conjured up a dog being pulled about in an aggressive manner, even though that's exactly what a strong dog will do to us - sorry but I can't find another word in the English language to explain it, maybe it would have been better to have said gentle tug - oh dear, that's why I don't get too involved in these type of discussions, even a word can be taken out of context and made to sound cruel. Think this is where I sign out, I can't dissect every word before I type it and my tariner isn't a qualified behaviourist, been training for years, worked on tv and found respect from other trainers just to be slated on a forum for being out dated, merely because she treats a dog like the animal it is. If you have ever been to a Malamute rally you may understand that there's a world of difference between these dogs and other's, they are still very primal and need a firm hand. Any Malamute owner will tell you, you have to have some respect as well as love or they'll walk all over you - but then how many of you have actually been on the wrong side of one?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I have to completely disagree with your there colette, Flynn feels my fear which he then reacts to, if that were not the case he would play up with my daughters, who have on occasion taken his lead when i've been nervous, only to show how they can walk him past other dogs without a reaction and he does - so he gets his fear from me, i'm certain of that. Also Flynn had a set back because he had a hip replacement which has meant crate rest for 8 weeks and very short walks for a couple of months where we haven't seen other dogs, he doesn't react to people and is very good, likes the attention but then i'm not scared of people but I am of dogs. So if my daughters can walk past a dog with Flynn and I can't then his reaction must be down to me and I can't be convinced otherwise.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

video: 
positive reinforcement training *in real life* - 
YouTube - Positive Reinforcement - The Big Bang Theory

Univ of Kansas: pos-R in teaching: 
Special Connections

HUGE article, plus almost 5-dozen article links in a cache: 
Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan 
*includes links for both pdf-files from AVSAB: 'dominance' & 'punishment as a training tactic'.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I have to completely disagree with your there colette, Flynn feels my fear which he then reacts to, if that were not the case he would play up with my daughters, who have on occasion taken his lead when i've been nervous, only to show how they can walk him past other dogs without a reaction and he does - so he gets his fear from me, i'm certain of that. Also Flynn had a set back because he had a hip replacement which has meant crate rest for 8 weeks and very short walks for a couple of months where we haven't seen other dogs, he doesn't react to people and is very good, likes the attention but then i'm not scared of people but I am of dogs. So if my daughters can walk past a dog with Flynn and I can't then his reaction must be down to me and I can't be convinced otherwise.


I think you are right there, Malmum. Perhaps you need to have a serious talk with yourself! What are you afraid of? Are you expecting him to start when he sees another dog, are you afraid of a potential fight, what? The blank mind works wonders you know, though it may sound daft. It has worked for me on lots of occasions with various behaviours; just keep your mind concentrated on something pleasant, like a nice sandy beach or imagine your dog walking past these other dogs as friendly as anything. It is not easy, but I bet you it works.

What happens if you are out with the dog and someone else, say one of your daughters? Does he play up then or are you more confident? You really need to think about this, for the dog's sake and yours.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't buy into the "My breed is different to all the others, it's more primal etc., etc.,", sorry. It's just naive. I've walked and worked with a number of Northern breeds (one Akita X Mal who was reactive to other dogs) and by using PRT have made great steps with them. You just need to take your head out of the sand and see how dogs learn and how we can help. For example, this Akita X Mal loved t-balls, so by keeping him under threshold and playing games with him whenever other dogs were around (hide and seek, retrieval) he calmed considerably. 

If you can not get your dog's attention at all, you are way too close to the eliciting stimulus and you have to step back to a greater distance. It's simple systematic desensitisation. 

Saying a dog is too old for treat reinforcers is preposterous and has no common sense behind it. She honestly sounds, to me, like she's purely trying to be the boss and earn respect the hard way, which is exactly the kind of view people are fighting to eradicate from dog training. I've worked with many 'powerful' breeds over the last few years and not needed a 'firm hand'. They just needed people who had a good idea of what was causing the behaviour, had a good training plan in their mind and set out, and good timing to implement it. 

Malmum- have you ever tried sledging or some near substitute with your dogs? I'm trying to teach a dog to pull on command at the moment so it could be an interesting experiment. :tongue_smilie:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Newfiesmum - it's me who's afraid, not with any of the other's just Flynn - I dote on him and if he plays up he's a force to be reckoned with. Doesn't do it with my daughters though. He has even reacted to his own reflection in a window when i'm holding him. In fact when he goes to Noel for his surgery my daughter walks him through the reception as there's always dog in there - he doesn't play up then. So yes I know it's me, that's why i'm going back to training as soon as he's recovered from his other op in April - to show me how to cope with an off lead dog if it approaches and to mix Flynn with other dogs. I don't have a problem at all with his mum and can walk aywhere with her but then she doesn't react, so i'm not scared. I think having a dog of mine killed by another dog some years ago has a lot to do with it too. I just feel the way Flynn can go off can lead him open to attack and that's what scares me. 

Rottiefan - I know many very experienced breeders/showers/trainers of Mals on the Mal forum who would definitely disagree with you on the they are no different to other breeds front. These people have worked with Mals for over 30 years and that is one of the first things they will tell you. They have not been domesticated anywhere near as long as average breeds, there still isn't that many in the country compared to other breeds either. A dog dominant dog, which you will be told on any site describing them who is not the easiest to train - a reason why so many are re homed while still young, as owners find them too hard to cope with.
I could't run Flynn - not yet anyway as he's having another hip replacement next month and Kali and Marty are no probem at all with just their usual exercise. 
Flynn actually isn't the problem, I am and intend to do something about that later. Other than that he's the gentlest, loving, obedient dog at home, walks like a dream when we're out but is fear aggressive of dogs and that's just because i've made him that way. Other than the dog issue he's perfect.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Newfiesmum - it's me who's afraid, not with any of the other's just Flynn - I dote on him and if he plays up he's a force to be reckoned with. Doesn't do it with my daughters though. He has even reacted to his own reflection in a window when i'm holding him. In fact when he goes to Noel for his surgery my daughter walks him through the reception as there's always dog in there - he doesn't play up then. So yes I know it's me, that's why i'm going back to training as soon as he's recovered from his other op in April - to show me how to cope with an off lead dog if it approaches and to mix Flynn with other dogs. I don't have a problem at all with his mum and can walk aywhere with her but then she doesn't react, so i'm not scared. I think having a dog of mine killed by another dog some years ago has a lot to do with it too. I just feel the way Flynn can go off can lead him open to attack and that's what scares me.
> 
> Rottiefan - I know many very experienced breeders/showers/trainers of Mals on the Mal forum who would definitely disagree with you on the they are no different to other breeds front. These people have worked with Mals for over 30 years and that is one of the first things they will tell you. They have not been domesticated anywhere near as long as average breeds, there still isn't that many in the country compared to other breeds either. A dog dominant dog, which you will be told on any site describing them who is not the easiest to train - a reason why so many are re homed while still young, as owners find them too hard to cope with.
> I could't run Flynn - not yet anyway as he's having another hip replacement next month and Kali and Marty are no probem at all with just their usual exercise.
> Flynn actually isn't the problem, I am and intend to do something about that later. Other than that he's the gentlest, loving, obedient dog at home, walks like a dream when we're out but is fear aggressive of dogs and that's just because i've made him that way. Other than the dog issue he's perfect.


How about a course of hypnotism? For you, not the dog! The one thing that I have learned from having a giant, stubborn dog is that state of mind is so very important. Nothing as drastic as you seem to be suffering, but I had a lot of problems with Ferdie on his way home from a walk, he would just lie down and refuse to move. I was there for ages, trying to coax him to his feet, and I realised eventually that I was expecting him to lie down, so he did. Next time we went out and got to the usual spot, I just thought about us walking home nicely, I did not speak when he lay down nor did I turn around - I just kept on walking, no tugging, just kept walking and he got up and followed. He never did it again.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Hypnotism is exactly what i've thought of but again would wait until I can take Flynn out properly after his op. before I star a course. A friend of mine is a hypnotist in London and he said he thinks it may help no end. 

Since Flynns op i've had to walk him where I live as for a while he wasn't allowed to jump into my car, before that i've always walked him in an area where I know there are responsible owners and dogs are always on leads. In that area we had it down to where we could walk opporsite sides of the road and he wouldn't react - in fact if he did I would get a little offended and be annoyed at him, which worked far better than my being afraid. Now I can take him back there as he can get in the car and my car has just been repaired, in fact as of yesterday, so on Monday we're off to go for our usual walks again, by the prom.  I'll feel more confident immediately being back on familiar turf and I hope Flynn will pick that up from me. Round here there is a park, just across the road where you get dogs running out of the entrance off lead with their owners, nothing wrong with that as their dogs aren't the problem, mine is, lol. There's also a Staffie up the road who sometimes gets out and roams the street til the owners realise he's gone, so those things put me on edge. All this is not good for either of us as i'm always on the look out for trouble and I know that's extreme but i've become very protective over Flynn since seeing him go through his hip operation and am so worried he'll get into a fight and his leg will be damaged - silly isn't it?

I'll see on Monday how we get on and if we're the same as we always were i'll know I haven't lost all the training we've put in. As you know with large dogs if they play up they can pull like hell and it's all you can do to hang on to them. Have just come back from a short walk in my road and to look at how he walks no one would ever think I have a problem with him, he's so relaxed and just ambles along, because i'm relaxed too as long as I can see there's no dogs about. My son always says he doesn't know what I worry about because Flynns a big lad who could look after himself but I don't want him in any kind of rukkus with a dog, not only would it set him way back but I don't know what effect it would have on me - i'm bad enough as it is, lol! 

BTW, i've got where I am with him and dogs by using treats, naughty as it is he can't resist dolly mixtures and it's with peices of them that he'll ignore other dogs, chicken, cheese etc. didn't cut it for him so I just used what has worked. So I do use positive reinforcement as he's a sucker for these sweets and i'll use whatever works.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Hypnotism is exactly what i've thought of but again would wait until I can take Flynn out properly after his op. before I star a course. A friend of mine is a hypnotist in London and he said he thinks it may help no end.
> 
> Since Flynns op i've had to walk him where I live as for a while he wasn't allowed to jump into my car, before that i've always walked him in an area where I know there are responsible owners and dogs are always on leads. In that area we had it down to where we could walk opporsite sides of the road and he wouldn't react - in fact if he did I would get a little offended and be annoyed at him, which worked far better than my being afraid. Now I can take him back there as he can get in the car and my car has just been repaired, in fact as of yesterday, so on Monday we're off to go for our usual walks again, by the prom.  I'll feel more confident immediately being back on familiar turf and I hope Flynn will pick that up from me. Round here there is a park, just across the road where you get dogs running out of the entrance off lead with their owners, nothing wrong with that as their dogs aren't the problem, mine is, lol. There's also a Staffie up the road who sometimes gets out and roams the street til the owners realise he's gone, so those things put me on edge. All this is not good for either of us as i'm always on the look out for trouble and I know that's extreme but i've become very protective over Flynn since seeing him go through his hip operation and am so worried he'll get into a fight and his leg will be damaged - silly isn't it?
> 
> ...




My Mum uses Dolly Mixtures for her Yorkie for treats! When I last saw her do it, I really gave her a telling off. Now that I've heard you do, perhaps I was being over the top. Something says to me though, that if DM's are the only thing that gets your dog to respond to training, then that has to be the way to go. Will be interesting to see what the others say With my Mum, it's more a form of just being given a treat. Her Yorkie girl is old (and had lots of teeth out recently, so can't chew anything that's hard) so the DM's are nice for her; I suppose she gives them a good old suck


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I would do the same, use whatever the dog responds to as long as it won't harm him. People are always saying on here about using cheese, so that is obviously very popular with canines, but Ferdie won't touch it. He spits it out, doesn't like it at all.

I know what you mean. It is scary having a dog who is a lot stronger than you are and if you are unsure, that is when the trouble starts. I have found out the hard way that if I think Ferdie is going to walk straight past something then he will, but I always use a headcollar on him. Joshua I can always control, as he has been brought up from 8 weeks with my new improved attitude so we don't have a problem and no headcollar is needed.

And certainly you don't want to risk doing him any damage. You get his health problems sorted, then get that hypnotism and you will be fine.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I owe it to Flyyn as I know how good he can be, so do intend to get it sorted. I'm hoping his walks next week will prove it's where i'm walking not who i'm walking. The loose lead does work wonders too but when he's in a lunging mode you can't keep it loose otherwise you'd be across the stree in no time, lol. 

Dolly mixtures are bad I know but I cut each one into four pieces and cut his next meal down by just under a quarter, as it's important he doesn't get fat - he's not if anything he's rather lean. He is barf fed too and has lots of bones which keep his teeth clean and has lovely white teeth, so I feel his walks take president over his teeth but I do keep a close eye on them and he doesn't have many DM's only when we pass a dog, which seems to work quite well.
My kids say they work because i've got a sweet tooth and think he likes them more but I know what works and if my boy responds better with his DM's then he gets his DM's.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum- what I meant by my comment was that Malamutes are just another breed- if you have the right training programme their fine. No dog needs a firm hand, in the sense of positive punishments and aversives. Dogs need calm handlers- their nose can pick up the slightest bit of sweat, without us even knowing that we are sweating! And, as you'd expect me to say after a thread like this, Mals are definitely not a more 'dominant' breed. Canines do not have truly dominance relationships. As with Rotties, when people call them very stubborn, dominant, in need of a firm hand etc., etc., I explain that these dogs have a greater propensity for become wary, due to selective breeding and, like you say, they seem to have more natural instincts than other more docile breeds. This is why Rotties are great guard dogs- they develop fear much easier. 

I think it would be very hard to make a dog fear aggressive purely on your reactions. They'd need to be some platform of under-socialisation first. If so, being afraid yourself definitely won't help. Has Flynn ever hurt another dog, or is it all just flare? Has he ever been off-lead with another dog?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

He's never been off lead in his life, like many Mallies. Raindog would tell you with Husky's it's not always wise as they have very strong prey drives, as do Mals and have been known to take off and not come back. Recall, no matter how good they may be is not very reliable in these breeds. He also had hip probs from one year old, so too much exuberance was not an option for him. You can imagine how much pent up energy he has as a young boy but that said he isn't a nutter, quite the opporsite, he's a calm realxed dog most of the time.
His socialisation was all a bit hit and miss, he did go to training classes but not beyond 6 months of age, big mistake really. Two dogs had a pop at him when he was young and that made me stupidly avoid dogs from then on and him being a big boy and possibly a breed not many people know, people have avoided him too, crossing the road with their dogs even when he was a large pup. He has met a non reactive GSD and although at first you'd think he was going to maul him to death by his growls (no teeth showing) he actually liked him once they got to know each other.
I don't get the impression that he wants to fight every dog he see's I get more the impression that as he doesn't know any dogs, other than his own, he is nervous and doesn't now how to greet them.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Malmum said:


> He's never been off lead in his life, like many Mallies. Raindog would tell you with Husky's it's not always wise as they have very strong prey drives, as do Mals and have been known to take off and not come back. Recall, no matter how good they may be is not very reliable in these breeds. He also had hip probs from one year old, so too much exuberance was not an option for him. You can imagine how much pent up energy he has as a young boy but that said he isn't a nutter, quite the opporsite, he's a calm realxed dog most of the time.
> His socialisation was all a bit hit and miss, he did go to training classes but not beyond 6 months of age, big mistake really. Two dogs had a pop at him when he was young and that made me stupidly avoid dogs from then on and him being a big boy and possibly a breed not many people know, people have avoided him too, crossing the road with their dogs even when he was a large pup. He has met a non reactive GSD and although at first you'd think he was going to maul him to death by his growls (no teeth showing) he actually liked him once they got to know each other.
> I don't get the impression that he wants to fight every dog he see's I get more the impression that as he doesn't know any dogs, other than his own, he is nervous and doesn't now how to greet them.


I think you've hit the nail on the head. And his hip ops can't have helped. It's just like dogs in rescue centres. They develop aggression by purely not being able to perform a behaviour e.g. letting off steam, meeting other dogs. It's termed 'barrier' aggression, I believe.

Obviously, letting him off lead in an open space is inappropriate, as it is with many Northern breeds. I just wondered if he'd met dogs other than who he lives with in a secure environment, off lead. Many dogs can change a lot in different circumstances.

It's encouraging that he doesn't try and bite other dogs (or to your knowledge). True aggression from a large dog like yours could cause a lot of damage. Every dog is allowed to feel uncomfortable and when they growl, it's just like us having a little disagreement. All dogs argue, just like humans!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It is a shame because whe he was around four months old I took him to a "training" session with other dogs on a long line but they jumped all over him, which he didn't mind - I on the other hand felt it was just a rough and tumble and wouldn't let my boy be bullied  so he only went twice and now I see how that could have helped him tremendously with socialising. Hindsight eh?


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

I have returned to the thread after my first post which said I couldn't see the video (btw all subsequent video links are broken) and so jumped from the first post to the then last post - I was promptly assaulted for not reading the bits in between. I have read the bits in between and stand by my first post - off topic and of no useful debate.

I can add, however that I like Cesar....I also like Victoria, Ian, Turrid and Martin. I take it all in, absorb it, add it to the research I've undertaken over the years on understanding dog behaviour via a plethora of various expert trainers (some more so than others) and the miriad of books on associated topics and conclude that there is no SINGLE perfect methodology. You do what works for your dog best, and having two dogs (one puppy and one adult) can say that different methods have/are working for different dogs - they are of the same breed.

In support of Cesar - if he's the last port of call for many of the owners he encounters on the programme, and it works and saves a dog from being PTS - what's your beef???? If it happened to be Ian dealing with the case, so what - provided they get the same result

Sure they all have their faults, I find it great entertainment watching the various trainers to pick faults in their methodology - but NOTE, they are faults as *perceived *by me - your perception differs from mine. Some people perceive that me 'poking' my son to stop him in his tracks before running in front of a car as 'abuse' - it's all in context isn't it. Whether I poke him in the eye or buttocks, does it matter if the result is the same? Also, this will be the only time I ever compare human discipline with animal discipline since, it may come as a shock to some contributors, but dogs are dogs, and humans are humans - discipline is required in different forms. Dogs live in the NOW yet humans think about the NOW followed by the 'WHAT IF' and 'SHOULD I'. When I accidentally kicked my older dog in the gentlemans department (I was aiming for his bum and tripped) he didn't take it as a personal attack nor bear a grudge. He wouldn't have listened to a debate about why he shouldn't be rolling in the cow pat, nor would putting him on the naughty stair give him the opportunity for reflection.

We take what we want to suit our needs at the time - sometimes we need help in the form of professional assistance. By this you can say that the majority of people watching Cesar programmes will copy him slavishly, you can say the same about any other programme you watch on dog behaviour - but they all have the potential to be 'copied' wrongly, and not every method is right for every dog (think of how many different strategies for child behaviour management parents use in an attempt to get it right as they grow up and out grow the previous 'behaviour/reward programme). What all the programmes do, regardless of whether you agree with their methods, is prompt people to recognise they have a problem and try to do something about it - they could do the same after watching somebody up their local park. No form of agreement/debate can legislate against what you or I perceive as being the 'wrong' form of dog training, get over it and stop telling others they are wrong when they are at least trying to do what they think is right - it's better than nothing at all in some cases.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> I have returned to the thread after my first post which said I couldn't see the video (btw all subsequent video links are broken) and so jumped from the first post to the then last post - I was promptly assaulted for not reading the bits in between. I have read the bits in between and stand by my first post - off topic and of no useful debate.
> 
> I can add, however that I like Cesar....I also like Victoria, Ian, Turrid and Martin. I take it all in, absorb it, add it to the research I've undertaken over the years on understanding dog behaviour via a plethora of various expert trainers (some more so than others) and the miriad of books on associated topics and conclude that there is no SINGLE perfect methodology. You do what works for your dog best, and having two dogs (one puppy and one adult) can say that different methods have/are working for different dogs - they are of the same breed.
> 
> ...


Many of the dogs that Caesar Millan "rehabilitates" were not heading to be pts and from what I have seen a lot of them did not have a major problem until he came along and gave them one. I would still like to know a bit about what happened to these dogs afterwards, but that is something we never see.

No, it is not better than nothing. Positive reward training programmes can certainly be copied wrong, but there is not much harm done if they are. With CM's methods a lot of harm can be done, like making a fearfully aggressive dog even more afraid and aggressive. He never bothers to find out why the dog might be aggressing, nor does he ever suggest a vet visit; it is all dominance to him, which is rubbish.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> I have returned to the thread after my first post which said I couldn't see the video (btw all subsequent video links are broken)...


there is a *difference* between 'broken links' and this message from YouTube - 


> *This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by MPH Entertainment.
> Sorry about that.
> *


another equally-illuminating collection of _'taps'_ is here  YouTube - 13. Cesar Millan kicking dogs (Abuse) only a day old!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> ...I like Cesar... I also like Victoria, Ian, Turrid and Martin. I take it all in, absorb it, add it to the research
> I've undertaken over the years on understanding dog behaviour via a plethora of various expert trainers
> (some more so than others) and the [myriad] of books on associated topics and conclude that there is no
> SINGLE perfect methodology. You do what works for your dog best, and having two dogs (one pup & one adult)
> can say that different methods have/are working for different dogs - they are of the same breed.


if this were merely opinion of the sort, _i like vanilla_ Versus _i like rum-raisin_, 
we could all agree to disagree & go our merry way - the problem is that by modeling methods & tools which are 
[according to people & professional organizations much more well-known & reputable than my humble self] 
QUOTE, *inhumane, unnecessarily harsh, misleading to the general audience, & confrontational,* 
& according to the AVSAB & AVMA, researchers at Univ of Penna Vet-Med College, and other professionals, 
*are likely to cause fallout or after-effects; specifically, prone to cause defensive aggression, & increase 
the likelihood of bites - whether to the owner during a 'correction', or to another person who startles or 
threatens the dog, or inadvertently reminds the dog of a previous situation which included punishment.*


Irish Setter Gal said:


> In support of Cesar - if he's the last port of call for many of the owners he encounters on the programme,
> and it works and saves a dog from being PTS - what's your beef????


as many people have pointed out - FEW of Cesar's guests are actually death-row dogs; 
and even if the dogs literally are under a potential death-sentence, there are other & better means of B-Mod.


Irish Setter Gal said:


> If it happened to be Ian dealing with the case, so what - provided they get the same result.


what we have all tried to point out is that Ian's methods *do not have* the same risk of fallout 
as Cesar's, as shown by Ian in videos on-line or on DVDs, and as shown by Cesar on TV.


Irish Setter Gal said:


> Some people perceive that me 'poking' my son to stop him in his tracks before running
> in front of a car as 'abuse' - it's all in context isn't it. Whether I poke him in the eye or buttocks, does it matter
> if the result is the same?


yes, as a matter of fact - poking him in the eye can cause a serious injury, which poking his butt will not. 
the eye-poke could get U arrested for child-endangerment or abuse, depending on the jurisdiction.


Irish Setter Gal said:


> No form of agreement/debate can legislate against what you or I perceive as being the 'wrong' form of dog training,
> get over it and stop telling others they are wrong when they are at least trying to do what they think is right -
> it's better than nothing at all in some cases.


actually, in many cases *nothing* is far less-harmful. :nonod: if the problem behavior is a minor thing, 
like the dog gets up on the sofa when U're not home, simple means to prevent that thru management 
eliminate 'training' -- which would be difficult & unlikely to succeed -- by keeping the dog out of the room, 
or off of the sofa, instead of punishing the dog for getting on the sofa or trying to put the fear of God in the dog.

for other behaviors which actually need behavior-modification, such as threatening strangers on the street, 
defensive aggro at the vet's, and so on, other trainers can provide safer & better B-Mod, again without the risk 
of fallout which would be consequent to using punishment.

Dr Sophia Yin, Trish McConnell CAAB, Susan Friedman PhD, DVM *Lore Haug* of Texas Veterinary Behavior Services 
are among the thousands of alternatives to poking, 'tapping', scruffing, rolling, et al.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> I have returned to the thread after my first post which said I couldn't see the video (btw all subsequent video links are broken) and so jumped from the first post to the then last post - I was promptly assaulted for not reading the bits in between. I have read the bits in between and stand by my first post - off topic and of no useful debate.
> 
> I can add, however that I like Cesar....I also like Victoria, Ian, Turrid and Martin. I take it all in, absorb it, add it to the research I've undertaken over the years on understanding dog behaviour via a plethora of various expert trainers (some more so than others) and the miriad of books on associated topics and conclude that there is no SINGLE perfect methodology. You do what works for your dog best, and having two dogs (one puppy and one adult) can say that different methods have/are working for different dogs - they are of the same breed.
> 
> ...


You began with a semi-valid point, IMO. However, you then completely discredited yourself by preaching the exact same stuff every Millan fan preaches, proving you have no understanding of dog behaviour.

In fact, there is many similarities between human and dog and cow and lion and hippo behaviour. That is we all do the things we find reinforcing. Humans play football because we like it, we train dogs because we like it, lions kill and eat because they need to, Gorillas allogroom because it's an effective social bonding experience. I don't care how much you preach about "Living in the now". Quite frankly, you can stuff it. Animals may make decisions based on their current needs, but they understand negative punishment just as much as humans, if you time it right.

Different dogs need different methods, correct. But no dog needs Cesar's methods as there is NO evidence behind them. The reason people think they work is because they immediately suppress behaviours through positive punishment. But they don't teach the dog anything.

Why the hell do you think so many people are against him? People like scientists and real professional behaviourists and humane societies? For fun? To get back at him for his fame? Open your eyes, take your head out of the sand and see what's behind the DW programme.


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## lou3 (Feb 19, 2008)

I am not a fan of ceasars methods either. They work on the very outdated notion that all dogs are trying to be dominant over humans and need "putting in their place". The principal of being a calm and strong leader is a good one, it certainly puts a dog at ease to have a confident and firm handler, but you can be a calm and strong leader without kicking your dog or pinning them to the ground in an alpha roll. Your dog needs the confidence that you control the world and that if they cooperate with you they will be safe and happy, not the fear that you will hurt them if they do something you dont like.

Do his methods work? Certainly. For him. But they are not humane and it could be VERY dangerous if someone with slower reactions or a more determined dog tried to employ most of them.

I think if people are going to try and retrain problem dogs without consulting a professional they are much better off watching Victoria Stilwell and investing in a clicker. At least that way the worst that will happen as a result of the training is that the dog will develop a taste for chicken and continue not to listen.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I always watch CM as I do all the other trainers on tv but I have always said that *he* can do those things and get a dog to obey - whether rightly or wrongly - but I don't think the average dog owner can. I think anyone trying to do the things he does with an aggressive dog is taking very big risks but then he always states not to do them at home as each dog is an individual case and needs assessing by a professional, as not all behaviours are down to the same thing.

The calmness of the owner and just common sense things he states, like walking an over excited dog or petting an over excited dog is warranted information, however I think it's a bit foolish to believe anyone can get a dog right by using his methods and often wonder how long the dogs stay well behaved after he's gone. I don't think it's his methods that get the dog to behave I think it's *him* and owners won't be able to continue with this kind of "training" for long. Even without being abusive.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Cesar Milln's ignorance continues to amaze me. As you guys might recall, Millan once proclaimed that a dog was obsessively chasing a laser becase he was trying to be - and I quote - "*dominant to light*"

Well, in a recent show - page 21 titled "Shadow chasing dogs" , he gave us the corollary to his stupid statement: *"We want him to be submissive to the shadow"*

And in another episode he even topped that with *"the Lamp shade needs to claim it's space"*


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Now I have a dvd with an episode of a dog obsessed with a laser light and after asking my daughters about what he said, they have said it was being obsessed with a laser light - not dominating it at all! So I will dig out the one in question and post what episode it was because I don't ever recall him saying that tbh. I really don't think he's that OTT but if you know what episode it was, name of the dog for instance, it would be easier for me to find as I have three whole series here on dvd. 
Never heard him say that about a lampshade either - but am willing to be proved wrong!


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Now I have a dvd with an episode of a dog obsessed with a laser light and after asking my daughters about what he said, they have said it was being obsessed with a laser light - not dominating it at all! So I will dig out the one in question and post what episode it was because I don't ever recall him saying that tbh. I really don't think he's that OTT but if you know what episode it was, name of the dog for instance, it would be easier for me to find as I have three whole series here on dvd.
> Never heard him say that about a lampshade either - but am willing to be proved wrong!


There is no end to the number of dumb things he'll say. This guy sees everything in terms of dominance.

You are partially right. What he actually said was "*With the light he became the dominant one"*

The lampshade was from the first of two segments (Frenchie attacked lampshades) and in the second segment it had Howie Mandel

Dominance indeed does make you dumb


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes what he actually said was the dog had a "fixation" in that it was fixated by the light, not obsessed by it as we originally thought. I remeber that now as Britches likes to chase a laser torch and we kept saying we'll give her a fixation if we don't stop playing with her with it. The owners first started playing with the dog with the laser torch as a game, which escalted in it going over the top with reflections in general. That particular dog also chased shaddows and any other reflection it saw, the reason CM said not to play with a laser light because it was making her fixated on all different reflections as well. 

We don't play with Britches and the laser torch now - just in case, as we noticed she would be attracted to the reflections a watch in the sun on the wall would give, not worth taking the chance we thought!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> ...*"We want him to be submissive to the shadow"*
> And in another episode he even topped that with *"the Lamp shade needs to claim it's space"*


:lol: i love it - thanks for the laugh!  i never heard the 'lamp shade defense' before, oh, my! :lol:


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> Cesar Milln's ignorance continues to amaze me. As you guys might recall, Millan once proclaimed that a dog was obsessively chasing a laser becase he was trying to be - and I quote - "*dominant to light*"
> 
> Well, in a recent show - page 21 titled "Shadow chasing dogs" , he gave us the corollary to his stupid statement: *"We want him to be submissive to the shadow"*
> 
> And in another episode he even topped that with *"the Lamp shade needs to claim it's space"*


Hahahahahahahahahahaha!! Seriously?   

Classic!

I wonder if MY lampshades are feeling as if they need to claim their space?

<notices lampshade edging sneakily towards middle of room>


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I always watch CM as I do all the other trainers on tv but I have always said that *he* can do those things and get a dog to obey - whether rightly or wrongly - but I don't think the average dog owner can


The thing is when I am out, I see owners do uncessary and upsetting things, which could easily be based on DW style ideas.

Case 1) A Lab, I was approaching looked sociable with grin, and noticed my Collie, who was off leash. Good body language. Got nearer and I could see it was a bitch and she was "taken" by my handsome intact dog and wished to greet.

The owner gave a huge yank on choke chain, which actually caused the whole lab to be bodily moved and I could see waves ripple through the animal from the neck, as result of the chain. She explained her Lab was "boisterous", I said that was no problem my dog likes Labs.

The owner was oblivious to the effect of the chain, she probably would just say "I checked the dog" but it was a violent action which would have caused the owner considerable pain and possibly caused a neck injury, if it would have been done to her. She would not have simply flinched and suffered in silence like her dog did.

Why the hell can't she simply lead the dog, and make it clear she was moving on with a "let's go!" or "this way!" rather than getting physical?

There's just no value in this, and short of videoing this sort of thing and making the owner's see how ugly it looks (and non-DW like) it's obvious that ppl can't implement DW style techniques correctly, especially when their attention is not focussed on it.

2) A nervous Collie, was hit with the box of an Extenda lead. It had been nervous at passing dogs, the area near the path was roped off for a race, and there were hundred's or people around (unusually), rather than open space. After I passed, calling my dog close to me, the woman who had been crouching over her sitting dog, but not explaining anything to oncomers requesting any precautions; hit it with the plastic box on the head. I heard the crack on the skull from yards away despite the hum of the crowd.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Again, with the lampshade I believe he said the *owners* needed to *"Claim the space around the lampshade"* - not that the lampshade it's self had to claim the space! I've got it here somewhere but with over 100 episodes can't for the life of me find it - yet -but i'll be back on! 

I mean, I may not agree with everything he does but I won't make stuff up just to make him look ridiculous!

With regard to the above post - I absolutely hate choke chains, don't know how many times i've seen them used the wrong way so as it doesn't release and stays tight around the dogs neck. Can't blame Cesar for them though, they've been around since I was a kid and the man wasn't even born then!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Again, with the lampshade I believe he said the *owners* needed to *"Claim the space around the lampshade"* - not that the lampshade it's self had to claim the space! I've got it here somewhere but with over 100 episodes can't for the life of me find it - yet -but i'll be back on!
> 
> *I mean, I may not agree with everything he does but I won't make stuff up just to make him look ridiculous!*




You don't have to - he can do that all on his own


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Well, I'm surprised you don't believe. Even Millan let out a smirk when he declared it. And if I hadn't heard it myself, I'd also wonder who would be dumb enough to say something like that.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Case 1) A Lab, I was approaching looked sociable with grin, and noticed my Collie, who was off leash. Good body language. ...[the dog] was a bitch and she was "taken" by my handsome intact dog and wished to greet. The owner gave a huge yank on choke chain, which actually caused the whole Lab to be bodily moved... She explained her Lab was "boisterous", I said that was no problem my dog likes Labs. [snip]
> 
> 2) A nervous Collie, was hit with the box of an Extenda lead. [S/he] had been nervous at passing dogs, the area near the path was roped off for a race, and there were hundreds of people around... the woman... had been crouching over her sitting dog, but [did] not explain anything to oncomers requesting any precautions; [she] hit [her dog] with the plastic box, on the head.
> I heard the crack on the skull from yards away despite the hum of the crowd.


:yikes: ouch, ouch, *OW-ouch...*

i cannot even see what the dog is supposedly to 'gain', in either case - 
a huge jerk by the Lab-owner will not result in her dog being 'more calm'...

and surely braining the poor dog with the Flexi-case will not 'teach' the Collie to be calmer?! Ye gods. :nonod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> You don't have to - he can do that all on his own


i think my 2 faves were the _'hold the tail'_ episodes, one with Ruby, the stranger-fearful Viszla, 
the other with another short-coated breed but with an undocked tail - a Pointer, perhaps? - 
claiming that holding Ruby's tail up with the leash would make her relax & be happy :lol: 
and with the other dog, posing the tail with his hand... :thumbup: to reflect the emotion he wanted, 
while he sat on the steps mid-body of a small caravan.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

"The tail between the legs creates fear" episode. That was pretty tragic too - it would have been funny, if dogs weren't paying for his ignorance.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Well, I'm surprised you don't believe. Even Millan let out a smirk when he declared it. And if I hadn't heard it myself, I'd also wonder who would be dumb enough to say something like that.


I've got it so will see  It's like when he claims the space around a window or door - he never says the door or window have to do it and he's done that in many episodes. He does make jokes sometimes though, perhaps that was one of them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i think my 2 faves were the _'hold the tail'_ episodes, one with Ruby, the stranger-fearful Viszla,
> the other with another short-coated breed but with an undocked tail - a Pointer, perhaps? -
> claiming that holding Ruby's tail up with the leash would make her relax & be happy :lol:
> and with the other dog, posing the tail with his hand... :thumbup: to reflect the emotion he wanted,
> while he sat on the steps mid-body of a small caravan.


Come again? So if you adjust the dog's body into the right position for relaxed, the dog will relax? Have I got that right? So if I have the miseries and someone comes along and holds my cheeks up with their fingers into a little smile, that will make me happy?



Corinthian said:


> "The tail between the legs creates fear" episode. That was pretty tragic too - it would have been funny, if dogs weren't paying for his ignorance.


No, you will have to explain that one, my li'l ol' brain can't even begin to work it out:confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Come again? So if you adjust the dog's body into the right position for relaxed, the dog will relax?
> Have I got that right? So if I have the miseries and someone comes along and holds my cheeks up with their fingers
> into a little smile, that will make me happy?


behold the astonishing proof - 
YouTube - The Dog Whisperer - Leash on a tail !! 
Ruby the Viszla on a city-street, with her tail noosed by the leash to lift it vertical... 
:lol:

i wish i could find the clip with him sitting on the caravan steps, talking about the very nervous dog 
who paces & looks-away while standing leashed in front of him; the dog does not sit or approach him for pets, 
is gazing off or around with a wrinkled brow & tail tucked, etc. But there are too many clips - 
a search does not bring it up, i went thru 3 pages, drabbit. Maybe i'll come across it later. :thumbup1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*elledee* pulled all her/his posts & departed the Forum - 
http://tinyurl.com/6483z5x

it seems a shame that folks cannot disagree & not make it a personal wound. 
i have had - and will have - disagreements, but i'm not going to set myself afire in the city-square.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> behold the astonishing proof -
> YouTube - The Dog Whisperer - Leash on a tail !!
> Ruby the Viszla on a city-street, with her tail noosed by the leash to lift it vertical...
> :lol:
> ...


Ok. So where do I get a bit smile put on my face like The Joker?

I love the comment "this should be on Comedy Central"


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *elledee* pulled all her/his posts & departed the Forum -
> http://tinyurl.com/6483z5x
> 
> it seems a shame that folks cannot disagree & not make it a personal wound.
> i have had - and will have - disagreements, but i'm not going to set myself afire in the city-square.


Often happens with people like that, though, doesn't it? They come along declaring the the DW is great, then can't take the logical and scientific arguments against their position, so they bu**er off. It isn't the first time and it won't be the last, but it was fun while it lasted:


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