# More Advice Please



## d8193 (Jan 7, 2013)

Have a AVA 25l tank, started Jan 2013 so very new to this !
I have 9 neon tetras which I think seems enough, as I also have a selection of plants, and APS air pump.
My questions are:
I get some wtr evaporation in about 1 week, assume this normal ?

Plants get some black spots, which clean off, during wtr. change, but should this happen ?

I get minimul amount of algae on tank glass in about 1 week ?

I do a weekly 20/25% water change, is this something that is done EVERY week ?? as I feel if it isnt then the water is not going to maintain itself??

I test with the strips, which I understand are not the best, but get the same/correct readings.

I am looking to get a gravel cleaner, (Eheim) but am concerned with the amount of disturbance and debris that is created, (having seen demos. of these on line) wont this harm/kill the fish ?? I get enough of this during my weekly maintenance.

After having got the tank I have since learnt that a small tank is the hardest to keep !!! I guess this is after the horse has bolted. 
If I can master this with a small tank, will progress to a larger one.

Hope I am not asking stupid questions, but they all seem relevant at the moment.

Thanks for your help, which I look forward to getting.


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

d8193 said:


> Have a AVA 25l tank, started Jan 2013 so very new to this !
> I have 9 neon tetras which I think seems enough, as I also have a selection of plants, and APS air pump.
> My questions are:
> I get some wtr evaporation in about 1 week, assume this normal ?
> ...


9 neons puts a tank that size at capacity, don't get any more fish.

It appears that you are doing a 'fish in cycle', be aware that on fish forums this is like saying 'I've decided to train my pup with an electric shock collar' on dog forums. But you are where you are, so here's what to do.

Your fish will currently be bathing in significant amounts of Ammonia and Nitrite which is harmful to them. To keep this under control whilst the bacteria are establishing (I.e. the tank is 'cycling') I would recommend 50% DAILY water changes until you can achieve 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite on your test strips for at least a week. Then move to 3 times weekly, then 2. With a 25l tank and that amount of fish I would do 50% twice weekly....forever......

The 'cycle' is this.

Fish secrete Ammonia as their waste into the water. Bacteria form that eat the Ammonia and those Bacteria produce their own waste which is Nitrites. Eventually Bacteria which eat the Nitrites form Nitrates. No bacteria eat the Nitrates so you can only get rid of Nitrates through water changes. So, why more water changes during a fish-in cycle? The bacteria haven't established yet, so you need to do daily water changes so your fish aren't harmed.

So, the Algae. The black stuff is a nightmare to get rid of. The green stuff is normal. There is an imbalance in the tank in terms of nutrients for the plants so the Algae is kind of saying 'wey hey a feast for me'. To be honest, successfully keeping live plants is mostly for the advanced Aquarist. I used to have planted tank which I dosed with CO2 injection, macro and micro nutrients and had 4 filters running on the tank with daily maintenance. It was beautiful but consumed my life. I'd go for fake plants just now, the silk ones are very good.

What are you using to dechlorinate your water- are you using a product that also removes chloramine?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi,

You're right that smaller tanks are harder to keep, and neons are fish that are pretty sensitive to new setups, so be aware that you might well lose some  It's really worth getting a liquid test kit such as the API master kit - it's about £20 on Amazon or ebay, and worth it as it will last ages and give much more accurate results than the strips, which is critical really when you're fish-in cycling. I agree with nick, you'll probably need to change about 50% daily until you're cycled - the aim is to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels as low as possible, and not to let them rise above 0.25.

I'd also recommend only feeding lightly - a pinch every other day will be fine until the tank is cycled. The more food, the more ammonia is released!

With regard to the evaporation, that's also more pronounced in a small tank. Does it have a lid/hood? What temperature are you keeping it at?

Do you use any sort of gravel cleaner/syphon at the moment? It's worth having something, as the gravel will be full of bits of muck that release toxins. Also, the water at the bottom of the tank contains more toxins, so you want to be removing that rather than water from the top. I use one of these: Aquarium syphon gravel cleaner | eBay Cheap and does a good job! The fish will be more stressed by not cleaning the gravel, due to the effect it has on water quality.

Hope that's helpful!


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## d8193 (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks nickmcmechan and NaomiM for your advice, I am, with respect more confused now, and I thought I was doing well !!

Firstly, Im not doing a fish cycle, as I thought I did a fishless one, water/plants were in for 2weeks, readings taken and confirmed ok with the shop where I purchased everything from.
I use a API 5 in 1 test strips (since learned not accurate !) so am getting the API master kit.
Readings were and still are GH 30; KH between 0>40 i would say more 0; 
pH 7; Nitrite o; Nitrate 0 or as close as i can tell with "colour charts".
These readings have not changed from the start.

I should add that the tap water is the same, other than KH more towards 40; Nitrite 0.5; Nitrate between 0>20

Water temp 22/23deg. (tank has lid etc. its a Aqua Vital ava25 package)

Algae as I said is very minimul, as is the black stuff, which I find easy to get rid of, and have only had to do this once since set up, in fact I am having to cut back the plants as they look healthy etc.

I thought plants were good for a tank, apart from fish liking them, dont they introduce oxygen ?

I am using Safe Water filter aid, Safe Guard de-chlorinator, and aquatic plant food.
Water always looks crystal clear, fish are lively, alert, look healthy as far as I can tell....when they get fed, shall I say it seems its survival of the fittest !!!

I use an Aquarium syphon, as you shown, but find due to the size of the tank it drains rapidly, giving no time to clean gravel etc. which was one question I asked, i.e. how do I clean the gravel, without creating a massive disturbance/cloudiness etc. which presumably causes much stress to the fish, and possibly death ???
Doing a 25% change, and when attending to plants creates enough cloudiness as it is.

Doing a 50% wtr. change twice weekly, forever, well thats not a hobby, more of a chore, and is making me rethink the whole thing !!??

As I said, I appreciate your advice so far, and hope to receive more.


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## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

Sadly, it does sound like your doing a fish in cycle, not a fishless one. The two weeks you waited before adding fish would not have been long enough to do a fishless cycle, and unless you were adding a source of ammonia from the start, nothing would have happened.

Ill try to explain as simply as i can. Basically, fish waste is broken down in the aquariumby bacteria in the filter. if the bacteria is not present, then no waste will be broken down and the tank will quickly turn toxic. when we say "cycle", this is the period of time given to allow the bacteria to multiply to a level where they can remove the waste from the water. 
this cycle process usually takes between 4 and 6 weeks, not 2. Also, in order for the bacteria to grow, it would need "food". When you do a fish-in cycle, you add fish to the tank, that produce the waste the bacteria need, but in the meantime, before the bacteria can multiply enough, the fish will be exposed to harmful chemicals and toxins. However, there is the fishless cycling method, where you leave the tank without fish for, as ive said, on average 4-6 weeks, and every few days you would add an alternative food for the bacteria, such as ammonia solution, or uneaten fishfood to break down. this will give the bacteria the food to grow without harming the fish.

Sadly, youve been given some bad advice by the shop (dont worry, its not your fault, and its very common). your 2 weeks would not have been long enough, and unless you were adding food and a starter culture of bacteria, nothing would have happened anyway. Its more than likely your cycle didnt start until you added the fish, because that was the first time the bacteria recieved the food to multiply, thus creating a fish-in cycle.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Hi there 

From what you've said it sounds like nickmcmechan and Naomi are right, and that you are doing a fish-in cycle. I understand that you left the tank for 2 weeks before adding the fish, but this does not mean that the tank cycled in those 2 weeks. For a start, it usually takes longer than that to cycle a tank (typically 4-6 weeks, sometimes longer), and you would also need to provide a source of ammonia throughout the cycle. Generally, shops don't advise people properly about how to cycle a tank, so you are by no means the only one to end up doing things this way - we've all been there! 

As your tank is probably still cycling, this is why you've been advised to perform large daily water changes, as it is likely that your water quality is not too great at the moment, and you can't check your parameters until you get your API master test kit. So the water changes are to be on the safe side until you can test the water.

Once your cycle is sorted and your tank is stable, I think nickmcmechan's advice for 50% water changes twice per week is sound. That's only 12 litres of water after all, and shouldn't take more than 10 minutes of your time . I imagine this was suggested because your tank is very small, and even though neon tetras are tiny fish, with 9 of them in there you are actually a little overstocked. Many people would say that 25 litres is too small for any fish at all. The only alternative would be to get a bigger tank, which personally I think would be the best thing to do. Bigger tanks are easier to keep, as you have more margin for error and larger volumes of water tend to be more stable.

Lastly, your question about cleaning the gravel. Unfortunately, cleaning the gravel does kick up some dirt and create cloudiness in the tank, as far as I know there is no way to avoid that, although you are siphoning it out and your filter should clear up the rest pretty quickly. Again, the effect will be exacerbated by the small volume of water you have; it tends not to be so bad in a bigger tank.

I hope that clarifies thing a little bit, and please do keep asking questions!


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## d8193 (Jan 7, 2013)

Fishyfins many, many thanks, your time and advice is much appreciated.


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## d8193 (Jan 7, 2013)

magpie, many many thanks for your advice, it is much appreciated.


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Btw, if it helps, you have the usual bad advice given from many pet stores and I think we all started fish keeping the way you did....indeed in the 70s and 80s fish-in cycles were the recommended techniques. However, you have done the right thing coming for advice and I hope you enjoy your tank - any pics?


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## d8193 (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi nickmcmechan, sorry no pics, too busy doing water changes !!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your encouragement, feel really annoyed with the advice from "Mr Fishman" am considering a larger tank, say 100 litre, what do you think ?
Thanks


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

d8193 said:


> Hi nickmcmechan, sorry no pics, too busy doing water changes !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Thanks for your encouragement, feel really annoyed with the advice from "Mr Fishman" am considering a larger tank, say 100 litre, what do you think ?
> Thanks


:biggrin: I started off with one small tank, and ended up having 5 on the go!

Bigger is always better when it comes to tanks. Some people get extreme. I do remember watching a video blog of a guy in the US who built his own in his basement....in fact he converted his entire basement into a tank!....he used to swim in it to perform tank maintenance!!!

Mr Fishman is not uncommon. The chain stores are notorious for giving poor advice. However, they do employ the odd 'gem' of an enthusiast. Lots of stories of employees giving up masses of their own time to get their tanks and stock in shape.


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