# New gold fish owner



## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

I'm a first time owner got my tank last Saturday and put tap safe in. Fish been in since Wednesday and doing well. Now I want to make the tank interesting for the fish and for viewing. Any suggestions ?..... p.s. how do I put gravel in without upsetting fish ?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Hi.

From what you've posted, it sounds like you're new to the hobby, so, I'm sorry if this is blunt, but you have bigger problems to worry about than making the tank looking interesting, or upsetting the fish when you put gravel in.

All fish produce ammonia, which is toxic to them. It burns the gills, causes massive internal bleeding, and eventually, the fish die of it. Signs include black patches (aka ammonia burns - it's actual internal bleeding) appearing in their bodies/fins, red (blood streaks) in their fins, and gasping at the surface. Fin clamping (holding their fins close to their body) can be another sign.

The good news is, filters are designed to take in this toxic ammonia, and convert it into much safer nitrate, in what is called the Nitrogen cycle. Unfortunately, to do this, the filter relies on 2 strains of bacteria - 1, to convert ammonia into nitrIte (which is almost as toxic as ammonia itself), and then other to convert nitrite into nitrAte. 1 letter difference, but a world apart in terms of toxicity.

This process usually takes between 4 and 6 weeks to complete, so after 5 days, ammonia will be rising. Advice - wander over to ebay, and invest in a liquid test kit. Many here recommend the API Master test kit, which is available for around £25.

Now, you have a decision to make:
1) keep the fish and carry out a fish-in cycle. This will require daily testing of ammonia and nitrite, and carrying out daily water changes to keep ammonia and nitrite as low as possible (0.25ppm, ideally). You can also get a bottle of Seachem Prime, which will lock the toxins away from the fish.
2) Return the fish to the store, and carry out a fishless cycle. You'll still need to test daily, but you know there's no harm to your fish.

Either way, you need the test kit.

Once you get the test kit, test for ammonia (here's a heads up - goldfish are messy poo machines - after 5 days, ammonia will be through the roof!). Test nitrite as well, because by the time you get the kit, nitrite might be starting to rise, too.

What happens in a cycle is:

1) Ammonia (NH3/NH4) rises unchecked. In a fish-in cycle (which is what your current set-up will be), the fish add the ammonia for you, through their gills, and their waste. In a fishless cycle, you simulate fish by using either household ammonia, or a big ball of fish food. If you want advice on that, let us know.
2) The advance army of bacteria start to colonise the filter media (sponges etc that are in the filter), and start converting it into nitrite.
3) As a result, nitrIte (NO2) starts to rise unchecked. Ammonia starts to fall.
4) The second bacterial army arrives, and start converting nitrite (NO2) into Nitrate (NO3)
5) As the filter nears the end of the cycle, ammonia (NH3) starts to fall faster and faster, and soon, nitrite starts to do the same.
6) The tank is finished cycling once ammonia and nitrite are 0ppm when testing. At this point, nitrate will be through the roof. You keep that under control (under 40ppm - the lower, the better) with water changes.

However, as I said before, goldies are messy fish. And they're large. Your fish at the moment is a baby. How do I know? Most of the fish sold at pet shops, are. Commons get to 12" (yes, that's 1ft) in length. Fancies generally get to around 8-10". For 1 goldfish, you'll need a tank if at least 30 gallons/136ltrs, and filters rated for tanks double the size of yours. So a 30gal tank, needs a 60gal filter. For 2 or more goldies, you need the 30gal tank, plus an extra 10gal for each additional fish - and the filter still needs to be rated for double the tank size.

Sorry for the bad news. 

(Edit; wrong chemical name)


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I was just about to get stuck in writing a reply, and @LinznMilly has got in there first 

Yes, basically your tank is not yet ready for fish, it sounds like you might have been given some poor advice. What size is the tank and how many fish do you have?


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

Worrid much said:


> I'm a first time owner got my tank last Saturday and put tap safe in. Fish been in since Wednesday and doing well. Now I want to make the tank interesting for the fish and for viewing. Any suggestions ?..... p.s. how do I put gravel in without upsetting fish ?





LinznMilly said:


> Hi.
> 
> From what you've posted, it sounds like you're new to the hobby, so, I'm sorry if this is blunt, but you have bigger problems to worry about than making the tank looking interesting, or upsetting the fish when you put gravel in.
> 
> ...


OH HE'LL! Why don't petshops advice of all this ? Got them from pets at home where they advertise their staff as being knowledgeable ! I was told to use tap safe and filter. Let water settle for 3 days then introduce fish. Will they take fish back ? I don't want to be responsible for anything dying


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2017)

I need to be quick lol. Your tank isn't ready as you now know for fish. For future referance always do a fishless cycle first.


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

magpie said:


> I was just about to get stuck in writing a reply, and @LinznMilly has got in there first
> 
> Yes, basically your tank is not yet ready for fish, it sounds like you might have been given some poor advice. What size is the tank and how many fish do you have?


I'm going back to pet shop now ! Thx to both of you for info


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

danielled said:


> I need to be quick lol. Your tank isn't ready as you now know for fish. For future referance always do a fishless cycle first.


Thx... I'm really upset about poor advice I've been given by pet shop


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Worrid much said:


> OH HE'LL! Why don't petshops advice of all this ? Got them from pets at home where they advertise their staff as being knowledgeable ! I was told to use tap safe and filter. Let water settle for 3 days then introduce fish. Will they take fish back ? I don't want to be responsible for anything dying


Yes, they should take them back, especially if you kick up a fuss and tell them off for selling them in the first place 

I think part of the reason they don't tell people about properly cycling is that it would put most people off from having fish, as people tend to want things now and making them wait 4-6 weeks is not going to be popular. And some people don't see anything wrong with cycling the tank with fish in, even though the fish do suffer and often die 

At least they aren't goldfish though, looks like you have danios and platies in the picture. What size is the tank?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Worrid much said:


> OH HE'LL! Why don't petshops advice of all this ? Got them from pets at home where they advertise their staff as being knowledgeable ! I was told to use tap safe and filter. Let water settle for 3 days then introduce fish. Will they take fish back ? I don't want to be responsible for anything dying


They will take the fish back, yes. It's their poor "advice" that resulted in the sale in the first place. None of this is your fault. We see this all the time.

Shops have a conflict of interest, to a certain degree. If they tell the layperson that tanks need to be cycled before adding fish (and how to do it/how long it'll take), they risk losing customers to Yes Aquatics down the road. People don't like to be told they have to wait a few weeks for something.  They also get to sell you pseudo-treatments and potions and "replacement" fish when yours die. 

How big is the tank? You might be able to add a heater and have a successful shoal of small tropical or temperate fish - they're just as easy, if not easier, to keep than goldies,


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> They will take the fish back, yes. It's their poor "advice" that resulted in the sale in the first place. None of this is your fault. We see this all the time.
> 
> Shops have a conflict of interest, to a certain degree. If they tell the layperson that tanks need to be cycled before adding fish (and how to do it/how long it'll take), they risk losing customers to Yes Aquatics down the road. People don't like to be told they have to wait a few weeks for something.  They also get to sell you pseudo-treatments and potions and "replacement" fish when yours die.
> 
> How big is the tank? You might be able to add a heater and have a successful shoal of small tropical or temperate fish - they're just as easy, if not easier, to keep than goldies,


30 gallons. Do you mind if I show staff your message ?


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

magpie said:


> Yes, they should take them back, especially if you kick up a fuss and tell them off for selling them in the first place
> 
> I think part of the reason they don't tell people about properly cycling is that it would put most people off from having fish, as people tend to want things now and making them wait 4-6 weeks is not going to be popular. And some people don't see anything wrong with cycling the tank with fish in, even though the fish do suffer and often die
> 
> At least they aren't goldfish though, looks like you have danios and platies in the picture. What size is the tank?


They are plates and zebra. 30 gallons


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Worrid much said:


> They are plates and zebra. 30 gallons


30gal is a good sized tank for tropical/temperate fish. Your fish aren't goldies - my advice centred around your title , so you don't have to worry about them outgrowing the tank size, and their bioload is much smaller, so you won't necessarily need to overfilter, either.

Based on the new info, you _could_ if you wanted to, buy the bottle of Seachem Prime mentioned above, and use that to protect the fish from ammonia and nitrite while the tank cycles. Prime converts toxic ammonia (NH3) into ammonium (NH4), up to 1ppm, but doesn't affect the test results, which some ammonia-blockers can do, Carry out daily water changes (I'd start by doing a 50% w/c today, and then daily changes of up 25-30%, depending on what ammonia and nitrite are doing)

Alternatively, take the fish back to the shop, raise merry Hell, and carry or a fishless cycle.


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> 30gal is a good sized tank for tropical/temperate fish. Your fish aren't goldies - my advice centred around your title , so you don't have to worry about them outgrowing the tank size, and their bioload is much smaller, so you won't necessarily need to overfilter, either.
> 
> Based on the new info, you _could_ if you wanted to, buy the bottle of Seachem Prime mentioned above, and use that to protect the fish from ammonia and nitrite while the tank cycles. Prime converts toxic ammonia (NH3) into ammonium (NH4), up to 1ppm, but doesn't affect the test results, which some ammonia-blockers can do, Carry out daily water changes (I'd start by doing a 50% w/c today, and then daily changes of up 25-30%, depending on what ammonia and nitrite are doing)


I just called them. They said to come to the store and advise me on water changes and fish in cycle. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. Seems I have a lot to learn. I will keep updating x


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Worrid much said:


> 30 gallons


30 gallons is a really nice size, depending on how many fish you have you might get away with keeping the fish, so long as you get hold of a good test kit and keep an eye on the parameters, and do plenty of water changes. Small fish in a large body of water are not going to produce an overwhelming amount of ammonia too quickly.

Definitely 30 gallons and not 30 litres though? (most fish tanks in the UK are sold by litres)


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

magpie said:


> 30 gallons is a really nice size, depending on how many fish you have you might get away with keeping the fish, so long as you get hold of a good test kit and keep an eye on the parameters, and do plenty of water changes. Small fish in a large body of water are not going to produce an overwhelming amount of ammonia too quickly.
> 
> Definitely 30 gallons and not 30 litres though? (most fish tanks in the UK are sold by litres)


You are quite right. It's actually 34 litres. I measured tank and checked a table. I have come away from pet shop with some good practical advice and a siphon..... Going on eBay now to see if I can get a testing kit x


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

Worrid much said:


> You are quite right. It's actually 34 litres. I measured tank and checked a table. I have come away from pet shop with some good practical advice and a siphon..... Going on eBay now to see if I can get a testing kit x


Ive not bought yet... is this what I need ?


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Please don't do a fish in cycle even if that is what the shop advise you to do. Even if you are very careful it still hurts the fish. The wait three days advice originates from a time when chlorine was added to the water to kill off bugs by the water company. Leaving the water to sit for three days would allow the chlorine which was harmful to fish to evaporate off Water companies don't use chlorine anymore, they use chloramine which is more stable and you can wait as long as you want, it won't disappear. It needs to be removed by water conditioner that breaks down chloramines.

If you decide to keep your fish then I would advise the following:

Buy the test kit advised and the seachem prime. Api also does an ammonia remover which can be used instead called api ammolock.

Do a 50% water change in your tank making sure you use water conditioner and the water temp of the fresh water matches the tank water.

When you get your test kit check for ammonia and nitrites and if present do further daily 50% water changes.

Feed your fish very sparingly once a day.

Follow the directions of the seachem prime / ammolock and use this to keep ammonia and nitrite levels at zero.

Get a food safe container or bucket. Fill with water from your tank (use the waste water from your water change). Put the filter in you bucket and switch it on.

Purchase some ammonia (or you can use fish food if preferred though this is sometimes slower) and carry out a fishless cycle on the filter in the bucket. Google "fishless cycle method" or we can provide a link. The cycle will take about 4 to 6 weeks. Once the cycle is complete you can put the filter in the tank and stop with the ammonia remover dosing though keep a close eye on things with the tests kit.

Meanwhile keep checking the water quality of your fish tank and keep up with dosing. You can also buy zeolite granules and these will also absorb toxins. If you want to do this get a leg of a clean but unwashed (IE no soap residue ) pair of tights / stocking and put the zeolite in the foot end. Suspend the tights in the water. If you have an air pump or something to cause water movement arrange it so the water moves towards the tights.

Some PAH staff are knowledgeable and some are not. Now you know your local ones are rubbish you can be cautious about any other fish keeping advice they give out.

Welcome to the hobby. It is very enjoyable once you get past the initial steep learning curve. Any problems give us a shout.


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

kittih said:


> Please don't do a fish in cycle even if that is what the shop advise you to do. Even if you are very careful it still hurts the fish. The wait three days advice originates from a time when chlorine was added to the water to kill off bugs by the water company. Leaving the water to sit for three days would allow the chlorine which was harmful to fish to evaporate off Water companies don't use chlorine anymore, they use chloramine which is more stable and you can wait as long as you want, it won't disappear. It needs to be removed by water conditioner that breaks down chloramines.
> 
> If you decide to keep your fish then I would advise the following:
> 
> ...


I mentioned reached to the pet shop. They said tap safe is all I need.... I'm so confused! I have these fish now and don't know how I would regime them... I am doing everything I can, given the late advice. This is mainly my fault for not researching properly. All I can do at this point is try and save what I have


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

Worrid much said:


> I mentioned reached to the pet shop. They said tap safe is all I need.... I'm so confused! I have these fish now and don't know how I would regime them... I am doing everything I can, given the late advice. This is mainly my fault for not researching properly. All I can do at this point is try and save what I have


Bloody predictive .... seachem


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

kittih said:


> Please don't do a fish in cycle even if that is what the shop advise you to do. Even if you are very careful it still hurts the fish. The wait three days advice originates from a time when chlorine was added to the water to kill off bugs by the water company. Leaving the water to sit for three days would allow the chlorine which was harmful to fish to evaporate off Water companies don't use chlorine anymore, they use chloramine which is more stable and you can wait as long as you want, it won't disappear. It needs to be removed by water conditioner that breaks down chloramines.
> 
> If you decide to keep your fish then I would advise the following:
> 
> ...


Zeolite ? Looking it up


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

kittih said:


> Please don't do a fish in cycle even if that is what the shop advise you to do. Even if you are very careful it still hurts the fish. The wait three days advice originates from a time when chlorine was added to the water to kill off bugs by the water company. Leaving the water to sit for three days would allow the chlorine which was harmful to fish to evaporate off Water companies don't use chlorine anymore, they use chloramine which is more stable and you can wait as long as you want, it won't disappear. It needs to be removed by water conditioner that breaks down chloramines.
> 
> If you decide to keep your fish then I would advise the following:
> 
> ...


In an ideal world, everyone would do a fishless cycle, the tank would always be stable, the fish would always be healthy, keepers would never forget to treat the replacement water with dechloronator, and no one would ever have to resort to treating a full tank of fish for internal infections, which wipes out the filter bacteria.

My point is, there are times when fish-in cycles are necessary. OP already has the fish, Yes, by all means, they can return the fish, but there's every chance they get resold to someone just as new to the hobby, who doesn't join forums until they're dying of ammonia poisoning - if at all - and there's no way of knowing whether it's better for the fish to be returned (causing even more stress and impacting their immune system even more), only to be resold a few days later to someone just as new and unaware of what they're doing, or to ride out a fish-in cycle, protected by Seachem Prime, and with regular water changes and testing being carried out.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I agree that sometimes it is possible to do a fish in cycle with minimal stress to the fish, especially if you only have a few small fish in a large tank. However 34 litres is very small and is in fact not a suitable size to keep those fish permanently. I would recommend returning them to the store. Danios are very active and need at least a 3 foot long tank to swim in, and platies will be very cramped in 34 litres. 

Your tank would be an ideal size for a single male betta, but again I would wait til after it's properly cycled.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Worrid much said:


> I mentioned seachem to the pet shop. They said tap safe is all I need.... I'm so confused!


Seachem prime and tap safe essentially do the same basic function, in that they remove chloramines and hard metals from you tap water making it safe for the fish. However, prime also (I'm a bit fuzzy on the details here!) makes ammonia less toxic, or something like that. As you will have ammonia in your tank with it not being cycled, prime would be the better product for you. You also use a lot less of it than you do with tap safe, so works out much less expensive.

And yes, the API test kit that you put a picture of is a good test kit, I would order one in


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

magpie said:


> Seachem prime and tap safe essentially do the same basic function, in that they remove chloramines and hard metals from you tap water making it safe for the fish. However, prime also (I'm a bit fuzzy on the details here!) makes ammonia less toxic, or something like that. As you will have ammonia in your tank with it not being cycled, prime would be the better product for you. You also use a lot less of it than you do with tap safe, so works out much less expensive.
> 
> And yes, the API test kit that you put a picture of is a good test kit, I would order one in


Thx. On it


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Worrid much said:


> Thx. On it


Great  If you do choose to keep the fish, just be aware that ideally they will need an upgrade to a larger tank at some point.


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

magpie said:


> Great  If you do choose to keep the fish, just be aware that ideally they will need an upgrade to a larger tank at some point.


I know who to ask. Will they grow much? Table says 18 inch of fish.... I have 8! Am I pushing my luck ?


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

Worrid much said:


> I know who to ask. Will they grow much? Table says 18 inch of fish.... I have 8! Am I pushing my luck ?


8 fish that is at maybe 1and 1/4 inch


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Worrid much said:


> I know who to ask. Will they grow much? Table says 18 inch of fish.... I have 8! Am I pushing my luck ?


They will only get to a couple of inches each, but the danios are very active swimmers and need space to swim around, I would say a 3 foot long tank at least for them. The platies will get chunkier than the danios and again will just need more room than a 34 litre tank can provide. The sooner you can get a bigger tank for them the better really.

As I said above, your current tank would be perfect for a male betta, you'd just need a heater for him.


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

magpie said:


> They will only get to a couple of inches each, but the danios are very active swimmers and need space to swim around, I would say a 3 foot long tank at least for them. The platies will get chunkier than the danios and again will just need more room than a 34 litre tank can provide. The sooner you can get a bigger tank for them the better really.
> 
> As I said above, your current tank would be perfect for a male betta, you'd just need a heater for him.


I need to cater for what I have. God bless schlock lol


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## Worrid much (Jul 11, 2017)

Worrid much said:


> I need to cater for what I have. God bless schlock lol


Predictive again ..... schpock


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Worrid much said:


> I need to cater for what I have. God bless schlock lol


Of course, I just meant eventually! Once you are sorted and it's going well, fishkeeping is very addictive


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> In an ideal world, everyone would do a fishless cycle, the tank would always be stable, the fish would always be healthy, keepers would never forget to treat the replacement water with dechloronator, and no one would ever have to resort to treating a full tank of fish for internal infections, which wipes out the filter bacteria.
> 
> My point is, there are times when fish-in cycles are necessary. OP already has the fish, Yes, by all means, they can return the fish, but there's every chance they get resold to someone just as new to the hobby, who doesn't join forums until they're dying of ammonia poisoning - if at all - and there's no way of knowing whether it's better for the fish to be returned (causing even more stress and impacting their immune system even more), only to be resold a few days later to someone just as new and unaware of what they're doing, or to ride out a fish-in cycle, protected by Seachem Prime, and with regular water changes and testing being carried out.


I don't disagree but it is still possible for the OP to keep his fish, keep them safe by using ammonia absorbing chemicals and separately do a fishless cycle of the filter to build sufficient bacteria to support his fish once the cycle has completed.

Doing a fish in cycle but adding ammonia removing products to keep the fish safe will significantly reduce the ammonia the bacteria need to feed on so the cycle can take a long time. It can be done successfully but to my mind if there is a way to make the process quicker but keep the fish safe then why not use it.

OP the tap safe may well keep the fish safe from ammonia but won't help with building a bacterial population in the filter.


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