# Split the breeder forum into 2 sub sections!



## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Ok guys a poll for ya!
I have been wondering about the possibility of splitting the breeder section into sub forums ie: Pedigree breeding & Non Pedigree breeding 
This is not meant to cause offence to anyone, more something to try to see if it would work & resolve some of the arguments on the section!
Both sub forums would in effect have the stickies at the top with regards to health testing, stud dogs, brood bitches & the like!
Obviously we would try to ensure that both sections promote responsible breeding practices including health testing etc!

Be nice guy's, this is my first ever poll & I think it's worthy 
Ok so open to your thought's & reaction's please!!!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Im not a breeder but have witnessed the bickering on here. Part of me says no because all dogs are the same and should be treated the same regradless if they are purebreed or mixed. But part of me says yes if it will help solve arguments.

so i guess im 50/50 on it.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

My vote is doesn't matter I'd check em both anyways. I figure we just need to keep advocating responsible breeding regardless of pure or cross. I'm just happy we have a breeding section...Jill


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

i think this may stop the argueing


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Im not a breeder but have witnessed the bickering on here. Part of me says no because all dogs are the same and should be treated the same regradless if they are purebreed or mixed. But part of me says yes if it will help solve arguments.
> 
> so i guess im 50/50 on it.


I dont think its about the dog being a cross..i think its more to do with alot of breeders not agreeing with people crossing dogs and so on.. We all know dogs should be treated the same but this isnt the fact what cross they are or what pedigree..more to the fact of breeding them.


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## Baby Bordie (Jun 21, 2009)

I dont think there is a need to split? Oh well, Lets see what the rest of us think!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I dont think its about the dog being a cross..i think its more to do with alot of breeders not agreeing with people crossing dogs and so on.. We all know dogs should be treated the same but this isnt the fact what cross they are or what pedigree..more to the fact of breeding them.


Ooo I completly understand about the ethics bit. I was just commenting on one of the things i noticed that starts alot of argueing.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

I think its quite a good idea..since i have been on this forum i see the same thing over and over again !!

People that wish to cross there dogs get questioned because people can never understand why they would want to put two dogs of different breeds together..when if there bitch was that good they could simply find a perfect match of the same breed..at the end of that all that happens is the person wishing to cross, just gets angry, upset, annoyed ect..

Then you get the people that bad mouth people that breed to keep a pup for the ring ect..as you get the same old story everytime.."why breed to the KC standard when its makes un healthy pups" witch we all know isnt true in all cases..

You get good/bad cross breeders and good/bad pedigree breeders...But it seems to me that the two can never see eye to eye and it always kicks off..so if there was a split section..i belive it might stop some of the arguments..As the pedigree breeders would have no reason to go into the cross bit and question them and the other way round..

Of course i still think that weather cross/pedigree breeders there should still be some where that questions can be asked about welping ect as some pedigree/cross breeders maybe able to help more than the people in there section !!! 

Just what i think LOL


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Just to add that breeders ethics & responsibilities should be the same regardless 
Hence the same stickies in both sub sections!


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## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> You get good/bad cross breeders and good/bad pedigree breeders...But it seems to me that the two can never see eye to eye and it always kicks off..so if there was a split section..i believe it might stop some of the arguments..As the pedigree breeders would have no reason to go into the cross bit and question them and the other way round..


and that is the exact reason why i think it is a good idea :smilewinkgrin:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

alyssa_liss said:


> i think this may stop the argueing


can't see it myself.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

dexter said:


> can't see it myself.


We can but hope :smilewinkgrin:
Where there's a will there's a way imo!


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

dexter said:


> can't see it myself.


i only really browse the doggy bit but as said its always about crosses/pedigrees people could then choose weither they wanted to get involved

agree they should all be health checked and ethics should be the same etc....... but then people who dont agree etc dont have to read etc

its worth a try imo


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

alyssa_liss said:


> i only really browse the doggy bit but as said its always about crosses/pedigrees people could then choose weither they wanted to get involved
> 
> agree they should all be health checked and ethics should be the same etc....... but then people who dont agree etc dont have to read etc
> 
> its worth a try imo


Agreed...and anyone that goes into the other section should have some sort of "warning" it will show the people that are just causing trouble! 

So i shall be on best behaviour  Not really i do always aim to help just get carried away :blushing:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i think its pointless really.... 

... would that mean that pedigree people wouldnt be allowed to post on the cross breeding section and cross people wouldnt be allowed to post on the pedigree section? 

Is that not the same as simply not clicking on a thread u dont agree with?


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> i think its pointless really....
> 
> ... would that mean that pedigree people wouldnt be allowed to post on the cross breeding section and cross people wouldnt be allowed to post on the pedigree section?
> 
> Is that not the same as simply not clicking on a thread u dont agree with?


Yes Natik...in effect you're right, but the thread titles never actually say..
"I'm cross breeding my dogs!", which then doesn't give much of a choice, once a breeder has clicked on that thread they then feel obliged to post
whether rightly or wrongly, I am hoping something like this would forewarn breeders what was happening & then they would not comment


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## shihtzumum (Sep 2, 2009)

As i`m new to this forum i`m not yet able to vote, but i would vote no if i could as i don`t see as it will make any difference what so ever, the breeding world is a very touchy subject and i myself have been on the receiving end of online bullying, which seems to me happen on a lot of forum don`t get me wrong i`m not saying anyone has been bullied on here but there will always be disagreements when it comes to breeding.
i have four breeding bitches and i was on the receiving end of arguments on another forum all because a couple of my dogs are not kc reg but all my dogs have full pedigree.
i have nothing againest cross breeds and i think everyone has different views on breeding and different opinions and i really think forums should be nice friendly places where people can make friends share experinces good and bad and give advice to those that need it in a friendly manner,thats what i was hoping for when i joined here, nobody can or should tell anyone what to do or how to do it and if you don`t like what you read then don`t read it, no need to be nasty in my opinion.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Mmmmmmm......Thinking about this :idea:

In my opinion it's not just about the crossbreeding it's about irresponsible breeding,this forum should only promote responsible good breeding,whether that be crossbreeding or purebred.

Any thread which is showing signs of been irresponsible and the OP not answering questions regarding health testing should be closed in my opinion, with a message to the OP stating why it has been closed.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Mmmmmmm......Thinking about this :idea:
> 
> In my opinion it's not just about the crossbreeding it's about irresponsible breeding,this forum should only promote responsible good breeding,whether that be crossbreeding or purebred.
> 
> Any thread which is showing signs of been irresponsible and the OP not answering questions regarding health testing should be closed in my opinion, with a message to the OP stating why it has been closed.


Then we would have nothing to answer to lmfao..most of them i feel have very little thought about them! but i agree resposible breeding should be promoted weather perigree or not..


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

To be honest, I don't think it will make a difference.
Someone is still bound to go in to the non-pedigree section and start arguing just because they still can.
x


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

EmzieAngel said:


> To be honest, I don't think it will make a difference.
> Someone is still bound to go in to the non-pedigree section and start arguing just because they still can.
> x


Then hopefully the mods will see that, that member is the one starting the trouble and give out a punishment.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Mmmmmmm......Thinking about this :idea:
> 
> In my opinion it's not just about the crossbreeding it's about irresponsible breeding,this forum should only promote responsible good breeding,whether that be crossbreeding or purebred.
> 
> Any thread which is showing signs of been irresponsible and the OP not answering questions regarding health testing should be closed in my opinion, with a message to the OP stating why it has been closed.


Now this is ultimately where we're heading I would hope!
Responsible, ethical breeding whether cross breeds or Pedigree 
We could all learn something new every day which will only benefit
us all....PET FORUMS Promotes Ethical Breeding!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> Yes Natik...in effect you're right, but the thread titles never actually say..
> "I'm cross breeding my dogs!", which then doesn't give much of a choice, once a breeder has clicked on that thread they then feel obliged to post
> whether rightly or wrongly, I am hoping something like this would forewarn breeders what was happening & then they would not comment


I think this would be a step splitting the forum into 2 groups... crosses vs pedigree (yes VS. lol) which would most likly cause even more trouble on the general dog section....

what about learning some respect and tolerance towards other peoples beliefs and opinions and fight all together for responsible breeding... be it cross or pedigree  
and those who class crossing as irresponsible are the ones which simply have to bite their tongue and accept that the world doesnt turn around only their opinions and beliefes but everyone elses too :smilewinkgrin:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

If there is a controversial post/thread ie against cross breeding in the pedigree section will that mean that the cross breeders will ignore it or if there is an anti pedigree post/thread in the cross breeding section will the pedigree breeders ignore it. I don't think so.

If you have to state your allegiance and are not allowed to post on the other sides threads then you might then get tit for tat threads started.

Dogs are dogs and breeding them means both sides can learn a bit from each other, I feel.
The divide is big enough as it is without making it more of a "them and us" situation.
JMO


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> I think this would be a step splitting the forum into 2 groups... crosses vs pedigree (yes VS. lol) which would most likly cause even more trouble on the general dog section....
> 
> what about learning some respect and tolerance towards other peoples beliefs and opinions and fight all together for responsible breeding... be it cross or pedigree
> and those who class crossing as irresponsible are the ones which simply have to bite their tongue and accept that the world doesnt turn around only their opinions and beliefes but everyone elses too :smilewinkgrin:


Natik...as usual you make sense!
But I have never said cross breeding is irresponsible, in fact
I am one of those that chooses only to post when I find that
the OP is breeding responsibly & health testing...yadda..yadda!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> Natik...as usual you make sense!
> But I have never said cross breeding is irresponsible, in fact
> I am one of those that chooses only to post when I find that
> the OP is breeding responsibly & health testing...yadda..yadda!


i didnt mean u.... i mean those who class crossing as irresponsible


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## muse08 (Dec 21, 2008)

Dog breeding is dog breeding regardless of whether their crossbreeds or pedigree.There are always going to be little "clique`s" on all forums, and everyone has different views but why divide people even more by splitting the section into 2 sub sections?


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> i didnt mean u.... i mean those who class crossing as irresponsible


I dont think any one does if it done correctly i will admitt, its not something i whole heartly agree with..but if its done correctly then i dont see a problem really..


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> i didnt mean u.... i mean those who class crossing as irresponsible


Thank you...I for one would not view certain thread's if I was forewarned to be perfectly honest & maybe other's would follow suit too!
We could have a whelping/rearing info section for all which should
be just that, I would hope this could work towards a happier atmosphere down in breeding for everyone


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

I wouldn't be for splitting the forum. That would just cause more rivalry and trouble than what we already have.

I think promoting responsible and ethical breeding is a very important thing and shouldn't be dismissed as "harsh" or "cruel", when you try to educate a new breeder that their practices aren't exactly helping the pet population a single bit.

If you aren't ready to scream your breeding from mountain tops and be proud of the way you handle the situations involved (health testing, finding the right stud etc), then don't post about it. You most likely will get berated for your wrongdoings and mistakes!!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Natik said:


> I think this would be a step splitting the forum into 2 groups... crosses vs pedigree (yes VS. lol) which would most likly cause even more trouble on the general dog section....
> 
> what about learning some respect and tolerance towards other peoples beliefs and opinions and fight all together for responsible breeding... be it cross or pedigree
> and those who class crossing as irresponsible are the ones which simply have to bite their tongue and accept that the world doesnt turn around only their opinions and beliefes but everyone elses too :smilewinkgrin:


I agree with Natik - splitting the forum would just make things worse I think.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

casandra said:


> I wouldn't be for splitting the forum. That would just cause more rivalry and trouble than what we already have.
> 
> I think promoting responsible and ethical breeding is a very important thing and shouldn't be dismissed as "harsh" or "cruel", when you try to educate a new breeder that their practices aren't exactly helping the pet population a single bit.
> 
> If you aren't ready to scream your breeding from mountain tops and be proud of the way you handle the situations involved (health testing, finding the right stud etc), then don't post about it. You most likely will get berated for your wrongdoings and mistakes!!


With all respect I totally agree with what you're saying 
Unfortunately not everybody see's thing's your way & some
do go out of their way to upset/annoy other's!
I have said right from the beginning that breeding should be done
ethically & responsibly by all, it's a shame in today's world this doesn't happen! I wish there was more we could do :smilewinkgrin:
Nothing infuriates me more than to see poorly bred animals churned out season after season believe me !!!!


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Ok so this in itself is a step forward!
Seeing where the trouble lies is fantastic!
So, we're all agreed that we want responsible, ethically bred animals
on what is essentially our forum!
We want respect where it's earned & we want nothing really to do 
with those that don't health test where appropriate!
Whilst in our quest for these things we end up with arguments all around & then somebody gets hurt & upset because we don't all agree with their breeding practises & off they go to report whoever has upset them, I am finding that more & more responsible breeder's are getting infractions over this by voicing their opinions! We are all aware that sometimes thing's don't come across as we'd like them to on a forum, but being we seem to all be passionate about the same things surely there must be a way forward


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## scosha37 (Feb 24, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> Ok guys a poll for ya!
> I have been wondering about the possibility of splitting the breeder section into sub forums ie: Pedigree breeding & Non Pedigree breeding
> This is not meant to cause offence to anyone, more something to try to see if it would work & resolve some of the arguments on the section!
> Both sub forums would in effect have the stickies at the top with regards to health testing, stud dogs, brood bitches & the like!
> ...


I cant see it will stop i mean breeding is breeding to me weather you have top class bitch/dog or a cross bitch/dog ect ect .. i dont bother with debates like this but i just find its not worth it , be the same if it was cats wouldnt it?... well thats just me.. thank you


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

scosha37 said:


> I cant see it will stop i mean breeding is breeding to me weather you have top class bitch/dog or a cross bitch/dog ect ect .. i dont bother with debates like this but i just find its not worth it , be the same if it was cats wouldnt it?... well thats just me.. thank you


You belong to the forum & your opinion is welcome!
Thank you


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

crazycrest said:


> Ok so this in itself is a step forward!
> Seeing where the trouble lies is fantastic!
> So, we're all agreed that we want responsible, ethically bred animals
> on what is essentially our forum!
> ...


I agree,so why can't the mods put something on a thread like well if you post like that and refuse to answer what are genuine questions then expect to be challenged about your decisions.
Then close the thread with something along the lines of,here at Pet Forums we only promote good responsible ethical breeding,we don't believe this is true in this case so are closing the thread - Please feel free to start another thread detailing breed specific tests etc....
Simple - Problem solved! :smilewinkgrin:


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I agree,so why can't the mods put something on a thread like well if you post like that and refuse to answer what are genuine questions then expect to be challenged about your decisions.
> Then close the thread with something along the lines of,here at Pet Forums we only promote good responsible ethical breeding,we don't believe this is true in this case so are closing the thread - Please feel free to start another thread detailing breed specific tests etc....
> Simple - Problem solved! :smilewinkgrin:


Agreed !!!
Then i wont try and tackle it and be harsh and get infractions..SIMPLE !!


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I agree,so why can't the mods put something on a thread like well if you post like that and refuse to answer what are genuine questions then expect to be challenged about your decisions.
> Then close the thread with something along the lines of,here at Pet Forums we only promote good responsible ethical breeding,we don't believe this is true in this case so are closing the thread - Please feel free to start another thread detailing breed specific tests etc....
> Simple - Problem solved! :smilewinkgrin:


Sounds like a great idea 
Have you put it to Mark??? :smilewinkgrin:


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## dipdog (Jan 24, 2009)

dont think it would make a difference, as people would still argue,which i dont see the point of all the arguing gets boring really...


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I like it


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

crazycrest said:


> Sounds like a great idea
> Have you put it to Mark??? :smilewinkgrin:


Errrrmmmm,Not yet,
Do you think it would be a good idea ?


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Errrrmmmm,Not yet,
> Do you think it would be a good idea ?


Blimmin heck Sal...it's a fantastic idea!
We are getting somewhere this evening just as I'd hoped


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Yes i do sallyanne !! Go for it :yesnod:


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Ok,
Lets put it to the man himself then Yes!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I haven't the whole thread yet  sorry! I will be reading it all once i have posted this! So forgive me if it has been said.........

I am not sure about splitting the breeding section. It all sounds like a great idea, but what about the people who come on here that are completely genuine and have had an 'accidental' mating or taken on a pregnant biotch that they don't know the father of the pups to be??

Where would they post? And even if it is a cross litter, they might want/need the advice of the people who know all about breeding and its problems etc and most of them breed pedigrees!


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Ok,
> Lets put it to the man himself then Yes!


Yep go for it


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I haven't the whole thread yet  sorry! I will be reading it all once i have posted this! So forgive me if it has been said.........
> 
> I am not sure about splitting the breeding section. It all sounds like a great idea, but what about the people who come on here that are completely genuine and have had an 'accidental' mating or taken on a pregnant biotch that they don't know the father of the pups to be??
> 
> Where would they post? And even if it is a cross litter, they might want/need the advice of the people who know all about breeding and its problems etc and most of them breed pedigrees!


I dont know where they would stand as all i would say is mis-mate..Unless they have had litters before and knew what they were doing ect... and the parents were two breeds or a breed that didnt suffer from mega problems


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> I haven't the whole thread yet  sorry! I will be reading it all once i have posted this! So forgive me if it has been said.........
> 
> I am not sure about splitting the breeding section. It all sounds like a great idea, but what about the people who come on here that are completely genuine and have had an 'accidental' mating or taken on a pregnant biotch that they don't know the father of the pups to be??
> 
> Where would they post? And even if it is a cross litter, they might want/need the advice of the people who know all about breeding and its problems etc and most of them breed pedigrees!


Hi...I know you haven't read the entire thread, but I have suggested a whelping/rearing section to run alongside the sub sections


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## dipdog (Jan 24, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I like it


its ok to a point till every one starts calling people all the time, imo theres no point, were all entitled to our own opinion but people argue because they think the other person should have the same opinion, life would be really boring if we all thourght the same


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

dipdog said:


> its ok to a point till every one starts calling people all the time, imo theres no point, were all entitled to our own opinion but people argue because they think the other person should have the same opinion, life would be really boring if we all thourght the same


 The simple answer to that is to not argue, period. Though that is much easier said than done  I still like the idea of splitting the section. I like things to be in order so for me it's great :001_tt2:


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't think that the difference has anything to do with pedigree or non-pedigree breeding. The theory and ethics should be the same and so I see no gain in seperating the two. I have no problem with either as long as the people doing it have knowledge of genetics and know what they are doing. 

It's the confidence of ignorance when people don't begin to realise what breeding and genetics can produce that I find difficult to accept. And of course those who also don't know anything about breeding can't see anything wrong with it either.

Health testing dam and sire is a good start, as is being concerned about good temperaments, but that's only the very start of what is necessary to produce happy healthy puppies. Many problems, both health and bad temperaments, can skip a generation or two and rear their ugly heads again and so knowledge of many dogs and their siblings in the sire and dam's is necessary to have a clue as to what may be produced from a mating. A pedigree is only a collection of names and worthless unless you actually KNOW the dogs on there.

Apart from temperament and the health of parents, breeders need to have knowledge of anatomy and construction of a dog to begin to understand what could give pups in a litter a predisposition to other health problems that may not be apparent in the parents. For example, not enough bend of stifle could possibly give a predisposition to patella problems. An upright shoulder, out at elbow, weak pasterns could lead to problems in the front assembly.

So people who concentrate only on health tested parents and temperaments, as well as those well meaning supporters who also have no experience of responsible breeding, have no idea what a can or worms they could potentially produced to pass on to unsuspecting families to live with for the next 12+ years.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I dont know where they would stand as all i would say is mis-mate..Unless they have had litters before and knew what they were doing ect... and the parents were two breeds or a breed that didnt suffer from mega problems


The mis mate would be ok. But what about taking on a bitch who is nearly due! (Well until i realised this was covered already with a whelping/rearing sub!) x



crazycrest said:


> Hi...I know you haven't read the entire thread, but I have suggested a whelping/rearing section to run alongside the sub sections


Oh! lol! I guess i really should throughly read threads first lol! Sorry!! It would be a super idea then, save a fair few arguments x


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Rough said:


> I don't think that the difference has anything to do with pedigree or non-pedigree breeding. The theory and ethics should be the same and so I see no gain in seperating the two. I have no problem with either as long as the people doing it have knowledge of genetics and know what they are doing.
> 
> It's the confidence of ignorance when people don't begin to realise what breeding and genetics can produce that I find difficult to accept. And of course those who also don't know anything about breeding can't see anything wrong with it either.
> 
> ...


Thank you Rough...much appreciated 
This is an excellent post, sorry I'm out of rep for today...but you deserve it!
I would have loved to be able to say all this...I just ain't no good with putting the words on my screen...Thanks again Rough


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Sallyanne that is a great idea. This is turning into a very interesting thread. Jill


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> The mis mate would be ok. But what about taking on a bitch who is nearly due! (Well until i realised this was covered already with a whelping/rearing sub!) x
> 
> Oh! lol! I guess i really should throughly read threads first lol! Sorry!! It would be a super idea then, save a fair few arguments x


LOL no problem...of course, there would be hiccups to start with,
happens with anything new doesn't it???
But I honestly feel it could be a step in the right direction for Pet Forums
& all it's members :smilewinkgrin:


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## nat1979 (Jan 2, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I think its quite a good idea..since i have been on this forum i see the same thing over and over again !!
> 
> You get good/bad cross breeders and good/bad pedigree breeders...
> 
> Of course i still think that weather cross/pedigree breeders there should still be some where that questions can be asked about welping ect as some pedigree/cross breeders maybe able to help more than the people in there section !!!


I AGREE WITH THIS POST 100%


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> LOL no problem...of course, there would be hiccups to start with,
> happens with anything new doesn't it???
> But I honestly feel it could be a step in the right direction for Pet Forums
> & all it's members :smilewinkgrin:


Indeed! Anything new will have them! But i do agree, it could well benefit the forum x


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## poochimama (Apr 24, 2008)

i dont think it will work .........i think its segregating the ppl not the issues as the issues are the same for both


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I actually think it will not work either.
Breeding is breeding in my eyes.
As long as everything is done correctly i cannot see what the problem is ?
As long as we can all remain civil to each other and give each other respect that would be a start.
I got lots of good advice on Hunny B's thread until the whole thing went laaaaa


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

just a thought i spose! But it seems to have got the ball rolling so no harm done there 
Yes breeding is breeding and as long as it is done correctly then imo there is no problem..i think this was more to do with the fact that certain pedigree breeders didnt agree with crosses and cross breeders always throughing back about the KC standard and breeding unhealthy dogs...But please lets not go there 
Yes i think people need to respect others and there views no matter how much they disagree with them..

I havent really kept up with your thread to be honest..But i did see some good advice..


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Colsy said:


> I actually think it will not work either.
> Breeding is breeding in my eyes.
> As long as everything is done correctly i cannot see what the problem is ?
> As long as we can all remain civil to each other and give each other respect that would be a start.
> I got lots of good advice on Hunny B's thread until the whole thing went laaaaa


I am not 100% but i am leaning towards the idea! It is a great idea! Simply because it would stop certain disagreements.

Like on your Hunny B thread. If it was posted into a 'cross bred' section, only people, who will not, argue will post. The people who are dead against crossing of breeds will not enter the sub section and therefore the arguments will subside.

That to me is better than the constant pedigree vs crossbreed arguments that happen on here.

But i see your point to...........although whatever happens i am 100% with the idea that this forum should represent ethical breeding only. And if people will not answer simple questions about the breeding of their dogs then the thread should be closed/ignored even.

I know this doesn't apply to you Colsy, i was saying my peice! lol! xx


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> If it was posted into a 'cross bred' section, only people, who will not, argue will post. The people who are dead against crossing of breeds will not enter the sub section and therefore the arguments will subside.


Will they though?
People flick through threads all the time, they usually only post on threads that they have an interest in and whether they feel they can give "advice" or comment or not. 
The fact it is in the cross breed section will make no difference to those who are dead against some cross breed practices nor will it dissuade cross breed sympathisers posting in the pedigree section if it is something that they disagree with. 
In fact some may make a point of scouring the "other sides" subsection to make sure they haven't missed some "digs" at their side by the opposing subsection members.
The other side of the coin is that some threads may end up in a huge one sided tirade against the other subsection. Far from stopping arguments it may in fact start them as one side may feel safer to continue nasty comments on their own sub-forum, so things could get really horrible.


Colsy said:


> As long as we can all remain civil to each other and give each other respect that would be a start.


True, I also think it is all about respect. We could split the forums up into smaller and smaller groups, working/show, showing/non-showing, money grabbers/non money grabbers, small dogs/big dogs, native breeds/non native breeds, cross breeders/pet breeders, health testers/non health testers etc. etc. it doesn't mean we won't get trouble.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> I don't think that the difference has anything to do with pedigree or non-pedigree breeding. The theory and ethics should be the same and so I see no gain in seperating the two. I have no problem with either as long as the people doing it have knowledge of genetics and know what they are doing.
> 
> It's the confidence of ignorance when people don't begin to realise what breeding and genetics can produce that I find difficult to accept. And of course those who also don't know anything about breeding can't see anything wrong with it either.
> 
> ...


Great post and I agree completely - concentrating on only one aspect can often have a undesirable effect on another - for example whilst trying to breed for longer muzzles in the Bulldog you automatically reduce the available gene pool considerably - this could very well have a knock on effect on other aspects. Good breeders have to consider the 'whole dog' - there is after all litlle point in producing dogs with perfect hips and eye but with dreadful temperaments - or poor construction, or that have fertility problems , or that produce epilepsy - it's the whole package that counts.

Every health test introduced or change to a breed standard runs the risk of narrowing gene pools even further - and if a breed DOES have a stud dog that 'has it all' ( temperament, health, construction and type ) the temptation is that he will be used by many breeders a a 'quick fix' thus leading to a genetic dead end - good breeders need to really KNOW what lies behind the names in their dogs pedigree - which is why puppy buyers should only go to specialist breeders who concentrate on only one or two breeds.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I haven't read all the thread so apologise if i'm repeating...

I vote no, because I think a lot of people will miss out on excellent help and advice if they only go to one section, and also I think that some people may go onto the cross breed section and say what they have to say anyway.

I also think it is good to get a balanced argument and you will only ever get that if you have both parties together.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

crazycrest said:


> Ok guys a poll for ya!
> I have been wondering about the possibility of splitting the breeder section into sub forums ie: Pedigree breeding & Non Pedigree breeding
> This is not meant to cause offence to anyone, more something to try to see if it would work & resolve some of the arguments on the section!
> Both sub forums would in effect have the stickies at the top with regards to health testing, stud dogs, brood bitches & the like!
> ...


ok long-ish answer....

I can see why it may be beneficial, and be intended to stop the bickering, but in all honesty i'not sure it would work.

I think the biggest problem most people have is irresponsible breeders - regardless of whether they are cross breeding or not.

Those who use mediocre stock and refuse to acknowlege the problems their dogs (crosses or not) may have health wise, and so dont health test are the people i have a BIG problem with.

The tolerance level of the rules on here is such that I feel tied down and unable to answer alot of these threads - because there is absoloutly no way i would condone irresponsible breeding.

I'm going to give a couple of examples of the type of breeding I dislike, however they are not a "whole picture" just examples.

1 - Cavalier owner. Bought new bitch puppy, has decided at 12months old that its time to breed. she already owns an entire cav dog. The dog and bitch are unregistered and from unhealth tested parents. The owner is unwilling to wait, unwilling to re-think her decision and maybe put it off until she has a good quality registered health tested bitch from good stock, and refusing to health test the dogs she has. She throws them together without any experience of studding and without any breeder mentor support. The bitch goes on to have 6 pups who are all sold at high prices and imho have a high chance of ending up in rescue and having long term health problems.

2 - Shar pei owner who decides to breed their dog with a poodle. Both dogs are unregistered and from unhealthtested stocks. The same story applies but this time you have the risk of other health problems which are prevalent in each breed. Yes there is such a thing as hybrid vigour but only for the first generation, and it wont cover certain things common in the pei-s (due to the skin folds) such as entropion or skin complaints.

So you see, each type of breeder whether pedigree or not to me is irresponsible.

Personally i would like to be able to advise these people, politely and with respect as to what should be happening. If they refuse to do it I think they should be banned from the forum. IMHO this forum is a place for pet lovers and as such we should only be supporting good breeders. If we continue in the same vein as we are i feel we are leaving the door wide open for more BYB to come along, and in the end this forum will be seen to support them (it already is to an extent).

One of the best things imho that happend recently was the stopping of livestock being offered for sale, one of the reasons behind this was to stop us looking like we were supporting the advertising of badly bred animals. Surely the same should apply to the rest of the forum.

I am going to say here that i am of course not talking about withdrawing support to people who through ignorance (most pet owners have never heard of mismate - or their beliefs may not allow them to use it), or accident have found themselves expecting an unplanned litter. Likewise for those people who have rescued a pregnant dam, in need of urgent help. Nor am i saying we shouldnt give a new member the opportunity to look at the plain facts and be given the chance to change their mind. I just feel if they wont change their mind, we shouldnt be seen to suppor them - therefore their membership should be revoked.

Education is the only way forward, and for those who refuse to be educated, i'm afraid i want no association with them.

Another little thing to add.... i do not like to see any thread that ends in a flaming. I think we are all able to give the facts about what makes a good breeder politely without it turning personal and nasty, even when the OP is on the defence and maybe getting rather personal themselves (just dont rise to it). Instead give them the real facts, the truth about breeding, the prospect of litigation, the proper information about their breed/s and what should be tested for... if they refuse to listen - ban em!

Strong words i know, but its how i feel.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I am not 100% but i am leaning towards the idea! It is a great idea! Simply because it would stop certain disagreements.
> 
> Like on your Hunny B thread. If it was posted into a 'cross bred' section, only people, who will not, argue will post. The people who are dead against crossing of breeds will not enter the sub section and therefore the arguments will subside.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure arguments would subside... (and this isnt aimed at colsy)

Anyone who is passionate about responsible breeding will go onto any of the threads... i dont think its fair to say they would stay away. The arguments would just be more spread out.


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## lynn9994 (Jul 29, 2009)

How come the bullies are allowed to say anything they like and crossbreeders arrive on this forum and are jumped on as not health tested as i was. I am health tested and even sent a copy of my eye test to a mod on here whom i think chose to ignore it.


I say again WHY should we be Questioned about responsible breeding are they responsible we don't know do we as nobody bothers to ask rude and insulting questions to them because oh they must be responsible cos they breed peddigrees.

It all comes down to jealousy in my opinion so Joe public has gone off peddigrees and prefers to buy a crossbreed good for them i say. Theres a lot less health problems with a Crossbreed than there is a Pedigree FACT! You only have to look at the price of Pet insurance.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lynn9994 said:


> How come the bullies are allowed to say anything they like and crossbreeders arrive on this forum and are jumped on as not health tested as i was. I am health tested and even sent a copy of my eye test to a mod on here whom i think chose to ignore it.
> 
> I say again WHY should we be Questioned about responsible breeding are they responsible we don't know do we as nobody bothers to ask rude and insulting questions to them because oh they must be responsible cos they breed peddigrees.
> 
> It all comes down to jealousy in my opinion so Joe public has gone off peddigrees and prefers to buy a crossbreed good for them i say. Theres a lot less health problems with a Crossbreed than there is a Pedigree FACT! You only have to look at the price of Pet insurance.


but you must know the majority of breeders of crosses dont do any health tests relevant to the breeds involved, most are simply breeding for £££ , i can asure you it has nothing to do with jelousy its simply concern for the welfare of dogs!

joe public hasnt gone off my breed! mores the pity!:cursing:


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

lynn9994 said:


> How come the bullies are allowed to say anything they like and crossbreeders arrive on this forum and are jumped on as not health tested as i was. I am health tested and even sent a copy of my eye test to a mod on here whom i think chose to ignore it.
> 
> I say again WHY should we be Questioned about responsible breeding are they responsible we don't know do we as nobody bothers to ask rude and insulting questions to them because oh they must be responsible cos they breed peddigrees.
> 
> It all comes down to jealousy in my opinion so Joe public has gone off peddigrees and prefers to buy a crossbreed good for them i say. Theres a lot less health problems with a Crossbreed than there is a Pedigree FACT! You only have to look at the price of Pet insurance.


It should never be about YOU and THEM! Both sets of parents (and where appliccable pups) should be fully health tested!

I dont see it as jumping on the cross breeders, I see the same questions aimed at other people who breed! Some examples of questions i have seen regardless of breed are:

1) are the parents good examples of the breeds?
2) have the parents had all their health tests?
3) how old is the bitch
4) how many litters has she had
5) what is your aim and vision from this breeding
6) are you planning on keeping a pup - if not what was your motivation
7) What are the temperaments like
8) have you had any experience in breeding, if not do you have a mentor

Now depending on the answer if anyone answers with the following examples, they are an irresponsible breeder:

1) i havent shown them, noone has looked at them, i think they look nice but theyre not registered
2)no
3)6years
4) 7 already
5) i think she looks lovely so i want pups to be like her - sheis my perfect baby
6) no, i'm breeding because so many people want a pup from her - this fella down the pub has offered me use of his dog and i can make a fortune on the pups!
7) she's lovely, but i dont know about the boy, i havent met him yet
8) i have no experience, i dont need any - how difficult can it be

you see what i mean? it makes no difference what breed or cross the pups are - this type of breeder shouldnt ever be condoned!


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## lynn9994 (Jul 29, 2009)

It seems to me this forum and a lot of its members have tunnel vision. 

I see post after posts with dif headings all leading to the same thing crossbreeds and ethical breeding and the crossbreeder always comes off worse. What sad lives these people lead that they can talk about nothing else.

Everyone is fed up of hearing their views its like a never ending record.


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## lynn9994 (Jul 29, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> It should never be about YOU and THEM! Both sets of parents (and where appliccable pups) should be fully health tested!
> 
> I dont see it as jumping on the cross breeders, I see the same questions aimed at other people who breed! Some examples of questions i have seen regardless of breed are:
> 
> ...


 I can answer all them questions but no one was polite enough to ask them at the time. i just posted my dog was pregnant and that was it oh shes a p/f byb. doing it for money, not keeping one unethical no health tests how am i supposed to answer posts like this At Midnight when i'm in bed. Also to answer the next day and proove myself after they have already decided what i am WOULD YOU in all honesty!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

lynn9994 said:


> WOULD YOU in all honesty!


Yes I would,
Also with a link to the KC's online database page,proving my dogs ARE infact tested.
As follows,
Dog Health Test Search â€¢ The Kennel Club
Put in the dogs registered name and it will bring up the tests and date.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lynn9994 said:


> It seems to me this forum and a lot of its members have tunnel vision.
> 
> I see post after posts with dif headings all leading to the same thing crossbreeds and ethical breeding and the crossbreeder always comes off worse. What sad lives these people lead that they can talk about nothing else.
> 
> Everyone is fed up of hearing their views its like a never ending record.


 its such a big responsibilty bringing puppies into the world i cant agree with anyone be they pedigree or cross breeder who does it irresponsibly or for greed...i have 5 bitches and have only bred 1, my 2nd husky has great hipscore results and eyes unaffected but i still wont breed her, ive not had my 3 4yr olds health tested because i dont intend to breed them either.


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## lynn9994 (Jul 29, 2009)

Well good for you but some of us have princibles. As i said i was not asked any actual questions just slated as to what they assumed i was. i don't have to answer ignorance cos that was what it was. You have been on here a long time and you of all people can see how it starts don't tell me you don't, so don't expect me to proove anything to you either.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lynn9994 said:


> Has it not occurred to some of you on this forum that as a cross/breeder you are hounded imediately you post, as not being health tested, WHY!! No one automatically hounds a peddi breeder that they are not tested. Perhaps cross breeders would not end up being slated if they were given a chance to post and WHY!! should cross breeders be obliged to proove anything to anyone on here, after all its a forum for friendly chat and advise IF and WHEN they ask for it. Its to talk about their dogs whom they love no matter what the breed or CROSSBREED
> 
> It would not make any difference to split the two because some on here would just not be able to keep away!!!
> 
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

suraliam silhouette is the kc reg name of the bitch im talking about you can check her out on Sallys kc link which when ive just checked her out they have her hips down as 8 when they are actually 3/3  

im always happy & proud to show my dogs results


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

lynn9994 said:


> Well good for you but some of us have princibles. As i said i was not asked any actual questions just slated as to what they assumed i was. i don't have to answer ignorance cos that was what it was. You have been on here a long time and you of all people can see how it starts don't tell me you don't, so don't expect me to proove anything to you either.


Excuse me, I don't believe this thread was about you,I'm not actually interested anyway.
I didn't post on your threads,I did read them and make my own mind up.
I keep my own house in order,it's upto others to do the same,if they can't be bothered then that's their choice,however those that do breed irresponsibly without any testing etc,expect a court case to follow if a dog you bred develops a condition through not testing.I would advise any owner to take the breeder to court,hit them hard,make them pay vet bills assiociated with the condition,afterall it could have been prevented,make them actually think about what they are doing.
It's negligence.


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## poochimama (Apr 24, 2008)

> As for splitting the forum as far as i can see that is how it already is.


I agree janice199 sadly......the forum needs pulling together not devided even more ..... ive said before and will say again whatever breeds ppl should be able to come on get advice,share and have a bit of fun


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## muse08 (Dec 21, 2008)

poochimama said:


> I agree janice199 sadly......the forum needs pulling together not devided even more ..... ive said before and will say again whatever breeds ppl should be able to come on get advice,share and have a bit of fun


Totally agree!

Although if you`re going to split the breeding advice section into two sub sections how about this as a suggestion.

*Breeding advice from members of the pretentious, presumptuous judgmental self appointed "breeding police club"*
And the other could be called 
*Impartial factual responsible breeding advice from knowledgeable breeders who care about the welfare of ALL dogs.*

There is some excellent advice given out on these forums, and there are some really knowledgeable people who are passionate about their particular breeds, but some people go about things totally the wrong way and all they do is end up alienating people and driving them away from the forums. Instead of informing and educating people that don`t know any better who have after all come to the forums for advice.

There is a world of difference between giving advice and opinion "IF ASKED" and trying to enforce opinions, making presumptions and openly slating/insulting anyone that doesn`t agree with you.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Further to my previous post about the knowledge needed before breeding, most people not 'in the dog world' appear to think that apart from basic health tests and good temperament, the other requirement is to have no similar relatives in the dam & sire's pedigrees. They think that will be a 'safe' mating, but in fact that couldn't be further from the truth!
For instance, taking one breed, say the Standard Poodle. There are already Kennel Club testing schemes for eye problems and hip dysplasia. BUT the breed clubs also know that there are other problems in the breed that at the moment aren't officially tested. Addison's, bloat, liver shunt, kidney disease, epilepsy, Cushings, artrial septal defect, auto immune disease, Von Willebrand's to name but a few.
So when you are outcrossing without actually knowing the dogs that you have in the pedigree, you have no way of telling if any of the dogs are affected or are carriers of any of these problems. If you inadvertedly double up on any of these nasty afflictions, they will be produced in the next generation and the puppies and their owners will suffer.
That's the way that genetics work! And that's what people are risking when they don't understand what they are doing - the confidence of ignorance!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

_Instead of informing and educating people that don`t know any better who have after all come to the forums for advice._

You can inform and educate all you want but it will have no effect on those who don't want to hear, and I'm sorry, those I'm not prepared to help.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Maybe the breeding section should be invite only. Those who do not fit certain criteria (ie, not doing health tests etc) and those who can not debate/discuss without posting snide remarks or being rude, should be refused entry or have their "membership" revoked.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I am sorry to say it will not work,i just no it wont.
Humans just their nature cannot stop wagging their tongues
It would be much better to unite on this.
If folk need advice from more experienced folk thats great either take it or ignore it.
But i will say no one has to prove themselves on a forum.
ITS ONLY A FORUM.
I must admit i got jumped on on my thread about breeding,but i can stand proud knowning that i will do the right thing.
It was clear that some actually do not think its right to breed crossbreeds but it will continue if they like it or not.
I myself will do everything before i even think about breeding.
If the tests fail i will not breed simple.
Now what more can you all ask.
I said all this on my thread but it was not good enough for some.
So i really dont think two sections would help,others would always jump on the band wagon.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rough said:


> Further to my previous post about the knowledge needed before breeding, most people not 'in the dog world' appear to think that apart from basic health tests and good temperament, the other requirement is to have no similar relatives in the dam & sire's pedigrees. They think that will be a 'safe' mating, but in fact that couldn't be further from the truth!
> For instance, taking one breed, say the Standard Poodle. There are already Kennel Club testing schemes for eye problems and hip dysplasia. BUT the breed clubs also know that there are other problems in the breed that at the moment aren't officially tested. Addison's, bloat, liver shunt, kidney disease, epilepsy, Cushings, artrial septal defect, auto immune disease, Von Willebrand's to name but a few.
> So when you are outcrossing without actually knowing the dogs that you have in the pedigree, you have no way of telling if any of the dogs are affected or are carriers of any of these problems. If you inadvertedly double up on any of these nasty afflictions, they will be produced in the next generation and the puppies and their owners will suffer.
> That's the way that genetics work! And that's what people are risking when they don't understand what they are doing - the confidence of ignorance!


*I think i've missed your point. whats that got to do with splitting the forum?
The way i see it is this, IF i came on here in the dog breeding section and asked a simple question,and example being, when would be the best time to mate my bitch,then thats the question i wont answerd i do not want people asking me why i want to breed or have i tested for this that and the other..to me is a plain and simple question and deserves a plain and simple answer.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I keep my own house in order,it's upto others to do the same,if they can't be bothered then that's their choice,however those that do breed irresponsibly without any testing etc,expect a court case to follow if a dog you bred develops a condition through not testing.I would advise any owner to take the breeder to court,hit them hard,make them pay vet bills assiociated with the condition,afterall it could have been prevented,make them actually think about what they are doing.
> It's negligence.


Can anyone explain what is wrong with the above please ?
I've just had a PM from a certain member stating to be careful as it's slander,made me chuckle  :smilewinkgrin:


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Maybe the breeding section should be invite only. Those who do not fit certain criteria (ie, not doing health tests etc) and those who can not debate/discuss without posting snide remarks or being rude, should be refused entry or have their "membership" revoked.


There's one of these on a Labradoodle forum.
Its like a closed shop and others moan because they cannot see what the breeders are talking about.
It seems to make it worse because folk on that forum like it out in the open.
How would folk know if they are health testing etc.
Some will not want to prove it as its their business.
I pay all the money for my tests why should i have to prove myself on a forum i am not selling anyone any puppies on here.
Also its our business.
Its a lot to think about and i can see what you are saying honest i can.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Can anyone explain what is wrong with the above please ?
> I've just had a PM from a certain member stating to be careful as it's slander,made me chuckle  :smilewinkgrin:


Haha Makes me laugh. Slander Funny I wonder if the member who lifted my name and added an insult got a PM


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Can anyone explain what is wrong with the above please ?
> I've just had a PM from a certain member stating to be careful as it's slander,made me chuckle  :smilewinkgrin:


Unless you are saying that about a specific person, then i dont see how it can be anything but good advice.


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## lynn9994 (Jul 29, 2009)

Why would i need to get my dog tested it already is but no one on here had the curtisy to ask in a polite manner you included . You just assumed i was in it for the money REMEMBER


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## lynn9994 (Jul 29, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Unless you are saying that about a specific person, then i dont see how it can be anything but good advice.


At last that is the point when i want advise i will ask for it. not be attacked and then everyone says well you should have answered WHY should i when i had been called everything and not asked one polite question


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Can anyone explain what is wrong with the above please ?
> I've just had a PM from a certain member stating to be careful as it's slander,made me chuckle  :smilewinkgrin:


theres nothing wrong with that post its excellent!...infact i never would have thought of advising people to take unscrupulous breeders to court if they have puppies suffering from genetic problems, so thankyou


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Can we just get back on topic?*


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Can we just get back on topic?*


sorry mom


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cav said:


> sorry mom


*haha oh ok.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

lynn9994 said:


> I can answer all them questions but no one was polite enough to ask them at the time. i just posted my dog was pregnant and that was it oh shes a p/f byb. doing it for money, not keeping one unethical no health tests how am i supposed to answer posts like this At Midnight when i'm in bed. Also to answer the next day and proove myself after they have already decided what i am WOULD YOU in all honesty!


Well lynn i dont know which threads your talking about because i havent seen them. However IF you were attacked with people make assumptions them i'm sorry. It was wrong of them. You should have been asked and given the opportunity to respond.

IMHO i see no difference from people asking questions about a breeders dogs or motives, than someone who is having training problems and people asking the age, breed and training history of a dog - without the full picture its impossible to give full good advice.



sallyanne said:


> Excuse me, I don't believe this thread was about you,I'm not actually interested anyway.
> I didn't post on your threads,I did read them and make my own mind up.
> I keep my own house in order,it's upto others to do the same,if they can't be bothered then that's their choice,however those that do breed irresponsibly without any testing etc,expect a court case to follow if a dog you bred develops a condition through not testing.I would advise any owner to take the breeder to court,hit them hard,make them pay vet bills assiociated with the condition,afterall it could have been prevented,make them actually think about what they are doing.
> It's negligence.


Excellent post - and something more people should be aware of! I will have to remember that and post in the health section next time we have a member who has bought a badly bred poorly pup from unhealtested parents.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

lynn9994 said:


> At last that is the point when i want advise i will ask for it. not be attacked and then everyone says well you should have answered WHY should i when i had been called everything and not asked one polite question


I dont think you were attacked


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Please can people have a sensible debate instead of name calling so this thread can stay open please. Anyone who starts getting personal again will be given a ban.

Thanks


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

petforum said:


> Please can people have a sensible debate instead of name calling so this thread can stay open please. Anyone who starts getting personal again will be given a ban.
> 
> Thanks


Thanks Mark


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

petforum said:


> Please can people have a sensible debate instead of name calling so this thread can stay open please. Anyone who starts getting personal again will be given a ban.
> 
> Thanks


Thanks but imo anyone who gets personal just the once should be getting banned


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Surely the main thing about this being a petforum is this is a place for ANYONE to be able to ask ANY question or ask for help.I can't see how dividing the forum would help.Imo it will only lead to a sittuation of "them" and "us", which isn't good in any walk of life.For those that have lots of knowledge then surely you would be better off just answering the questions put to the forum, i for one would be more than grateful.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Surely the main thing about this being a petforum is this is a place for ANYONE to be able to ask ANY question or ask for help.I can't see how dividing the forum would help.Imo it will only lead to a sittuation of "them" and "us", which isn't good in any walk of life.For those that have lots of knowledge then surely you would be better off just answering the questions put to the forum, i for one would be more than grateful.*


I don't see a problem with that,however some members feel unable to support irresponsible breeding(myself included) and won't reply to the thread,the forum also needs to make a stand against irresponsible breeding in my opinion.

Are we helping the dogs involved or are we helping BYB's continue with poor breeding for years to come ?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

As Janice says its a Petforum started for pet owners to unite.
To share experiences good or bad.
I dont support BYB or Puppy Farming,but i do support good breeder's.
Now i am trying to learn and become a good breeder.
Now why dont we all just help each other without all the seperation between crosses and pedigree's and the end of the day they are ALL DOG'S.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Surely the main thing about this being a petforum is this is a place for ANYONE to be able to ask ANY question or ask for help.I can't see how dividing the forum would help.Imo it will only lead to a sittuation of "them" and "us", which isn't good in any walk of life.For those that have lots of knowledge then surely you would be better off just answering the questions put to the forum, i for one would be more than grateful.*


I am not really bothering if they split the section or not. I decided ages ago that I will just not involve myself by answering unethical/irresponsible breeding threads


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

hehe you little buggers..I was reading this thinking gosh its going to kick off any time soon !!! LOL
Seems more people voted against it..witch i understand the main thing is promoting resposible breeding but i cant really see that working either, because some people dont health test and think that is repsosible of them...so world war 4 would just kick off again !!!

This is a hard one i give you that !! :yesnod: I think it was a good suggestion though it we can think of something together...ALL of us !


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> As Janice says its a Petforum started for pet owners to unite.
> To share experiences good or bad.
> I dont support BYB or Puppy Farming,but i do support good breeder's.
> Now i am trying to learn and become a good breeder.
> Now why dont we all just help each other without all the seperation between crosses and pedigree's and the end of the day they are ALL DOG'S.


Agree. For me in is not against Ped v Crossbreed It is against Irresponsible v Responsible


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

clueless said:


> Agree. For me in is not against Ped v Crossbreed It is against Irresponsible v Responsible


Same for me,I really can't post on the irresponsible threads,one I don't agree,two I don't want to encourage that sort of breeding and three it's simply not worth the aggro you get back from the OP when it's not the response they want to hear.

Crossbreeding or pedigree doesn't make the slightest bit of difference,irresponsible is just that irresponsible.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> hehe you little buggers..I was reading this thinking gosh its going to kick off any time soon !!! LOL
> Seems more people voted against it..witch i understand the main thing is promoting resposible breeding but i cant really see that working either, because some people dont health test and think that is repsosible of them...so world war 4 would just kick off again !!!
> 
> This is a hard one i give you that !! :yesnod: I think it was a good suggestion though it we can think of something together...ALL of us !


DD i still wont post in the breeding bit no more because im sick of the trouble and when i got called a bully was the icing on the cake for me

It should not matter if its a cross or pedigree as long as things are done right


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> As Janice says its a Petforum started for pet owners to unite.
> To share experiences good or bad.
> I dont support BYB or Puppy Farming,but i do support good breeder's.
> Now i am trying to learn and become a good breeder.
> Now why dont we all just help each other without all the seperation between crosses and pedigree's and the end of the day they are ALL DOG'S.





clueless said:


> Agree. For me in is not against Ped v Crossbreed It is against Irresponsible v Responsible





sallyanne said:


> Same for me,I really can't post on the irresponsible threads,one I don't agree,two I don't want to encourage that sort of breeding and three it's simply not worth the aggro you get back from the OP when it's not the response they want to hear.
> 
> Crossbreeding or pedigree doesn't make the slightest bit of difference,irresponsible is just that irresponsible.


Agree with you all, i couldnt give a monkeys what sort of dog it is, providing it has been bred ethically and responsibly.

Which is why i feel so strongly on the matter, and why i feel that if a member is unwilling to listen or to change, they should be banned. The alternative is that as a forum as a whole we appear to be showing support for these breeding practices!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

cav said:


> DD i still wont post in the breeding bit no more because im sick of the trouble and when i got called a bully was the icing on the cake for me
> 
> It should not matter if its a cross or pedigree as long as things are done right


Its a shame because you have so much you could offer to this section..as you know your stuff..but i understand why you wont!!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Janice199 said:


> For those that have lots of knowledge then surely you would be better off just answering the questions put to the forum, i for one would be more than grateful.


Answering the question often involves asking more questions in order to give a full reply and that is sometimes where people fall out.
The OP perhaps is not telling the full story or gets incredibly defensive when asked sometimes very reasonable and important questions. That gets everyone on edge and it is all downhill from there as people then take sides and others who have chips on their shoulders join in or some members have an attack of self-righteousness and before you know it is all a mess.

I think there is a lot of irresponsible breeding going on and mostly it is due to the "I want" attitude. 
I want puppies, I want my dog to experience a litter, I want money, I want show success.
All this is fair enough but when the "I want" attitude goes too far and it is not really in the dog's best interests or the interests of the puppies born then things need to be said. 
We do tend to pussy foot around certain members and their beliefs as it is not PC to criticise them and although I don't want to see huge slanging matches on the forum I don't particularly always want to condone those members and their practices either. Nor do I like seeing members who are obviously sitting on their hands and biting their tongue in private, posting blandly for fear of moderation when in reality they should be stranding up and saying it like it is.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> The alternative is that as a forum as a whole we appear to be showing support for these breeding practices!


That has been said to me numerous times over the past week,it's a real shame and of course how are we supposed to defend it ?
I can't because what is been said is the truth.
I can only give my point of view,which is - it drives me around the bend!


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

So if someone says they are going to do things right.....ok like me
Why does it go Pete Tong


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Agree with you all, i couldnt give a monkeys what sort of dog it is, providing it has been bred ethically and responsibly.
> 
> Which is why i feel so strongly on the matter, and why i feel that if a member is unwilling to listen or to change, they should be banned. The alternative is that as a forum as a whole we appear to be showing support for these breeding practices!


Exactly. Why be a Hypocrit Members on here are always advising members to ask for health tests, ask the breeder questins etc... when they post looking for a Pup so why should the members who are asking about their pregnant bitch or suitable Stud not be questioned as such
We are all appaulled when we read about a irresponsible adverts , puppyfarms etc... so to me there is no difference


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> So if someone says they are going to do things right.....ok like me
> Why does it go Pete Tong


What went wrong with yours ? sorry i havent thread most of the thread 
Just ignore them who ever they are..best thing.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Answering the question often involves asking more questions in order to give a full reply and that is sometimes where people fall out.
> The OP perhaps is not telling the full story or gets incredibly defensive when asked sometimes very reasonable and important questions. That gets everyone on edge and it is all downhill from there as people then take sides and others who have chips on their shoulders join in or some members have an attack of self-righteousness and before you know it is all a mess.
> 
> I think there is a lot of irresponsible breeding going on and mostly it is due to the "I want" attitude.
> ...


Excellent post!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> So if someone says they are going to do things right.....ok like me
> Why does it go Pete Tong


imo I did not think it did Colsy. Genuine question was asked as in what are you trying to improve? 
ps I did take it off topic before that question although it had went back on topic again lol


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Answering the question often involves asking more questions in order to give a full reply and that is sometimes where people fall out.
> The OP perhaps is not telling the full story or gets incredibly defensive when asked sometimes very reasonable and important questions. That gets everyone on edge and it is all downhill from there as people then take sides and others who have chips on their shoulders join in or some members have an attack of self-righteousness and before you know it is all a mess.
> 
> I think there is a lot of irresponsible breeding going on and mostly it is due to the "I want" attitude.
> ...


Great post


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> What went wrong with yours ? sorry i havent thread most of the thread
> Just ignore them who ever they are..best thing.


This was posted in Hunny B's breeding thread.

It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl.

Now i do not know how everyone else reads this,but i found this a bit rude.
I dont throw my dog's anywhere and i am certainly a good dog owner.
Will breed correctly if i ever do decide to go forward with our plans.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Fabulous post lauren...


On a slight tangent here.........

what about this as a suggestion?

We make a list of what makes a responsible breeder - built up of everyone who is currently breeding (rules me out cos i dont breed) ethically....

Anyone who posts and will not see reason after being pointed towards this thread, and warned of the possible legal repurcussions should be reported to admin to deal with?

This is of course subject to admin agreeing on some form of action or ban to be implemented. Whether is a ban on their ability to post on the breeding section (or about their breeding practices), or an outright ban - either would work imho.

I really dont know if it would work.... BUT

We do need something that will weed out the unethical irresponsible breeders, as that is at the route of 99% of the dog breeding arguments.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Answering the question often involves asking more questions in order to give a full reply and that is sometimes where people fall out.
> The OP perhaps is not telling the full story or gets incredibly defensive when asked sometimes very reasonable and important questions. That gets everyone on edge and it is all downhill from there as people then take sides and others who have chips on their shoulders join in or some members have an attack of self-righteousness and before you know it is all a mess.
> 
> I think there is a lot of irresponsible breeding going on and mostly it is due to the "I want" attitude.
> ...


Some members who seem to be sitting on their hands, work via pm's to keep trouble off the forum


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> This was posted in Hunny B's breeding thread.
> 
> It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl.
> 
> ...


I would have been abit wound up too..soo Yes i do see that also as rude..Just ignore it because you know how and when you are going about finding a stud for your girl 

Excellent post lauren..


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Ok i know i'm going to get slaughterd for this BUT,i understand how some people are saying you should only breed responcibly(sp) ie. having all health checks ect. ect. but as much as i can see where your coming from,i can also see the other side.Not everyone that wants to breed wants to do it for the money,or are byb.Oh i hear you cry,then why breed to which some say because they would like a pup from their bitch.But then thats wrong,because in some peoples eyes its not a good enough reason.But people shouldn't have to give a reason,they are seeking advice and i for the life of me cannot understand why thats such a problem.
ok i'll get my tin hat ready.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Fabulous post lauren...
> 
> On a slight tangent here.........
> 
> ...


So, an unethical breeder comes on here with a major problem,either with their bitch or puppies and doesn't receive the help they need


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i know i'm going to get slaughterd for this BUT,i understand how some people are saying you should only breed responcibly(sp) ie. having all health checks ect. ect. but as much as i can see where your coming from,i can also see the other side.Not everyone that wants to breed wants to do it for the money,or are byb.Oh i hear you cry,then why breed to which some say because they would like a pup from their bitch.But then thats wrong,because in some peoples eyes its not a good enough reason.But people shouldn't have to give a reason,they are seeking advice and i for the life of me cannot understand why thats such a problem.
> ok i'll get my tin hat ready.*


Alot of people only breed to keep a pupsters..Even people that have been breeding years and people that show/work there dogs..Thats the main reason that people do breed and i for one have never told anyone thats not a good enough reason to breed!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> This was posted in Hunny B's breeding thread.
> 
> It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl.


Never read that bit Colsy. Sorry I thought it had sort of kicked off when the question was asked about improvement/ achievement


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

rona said:


> So, an unethical breeder comes on here with a major problem,either with their bitch or puppies and doesn't receive the help they need


If it's that much of a problem vets should be called.
I think CC's suggestion of a Whelping/rearing thread is also a great idea.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

rona said:


> So, an unethical breeder comes on here with a major problem,either with their bitch or puppies and doesn't receive the help they need


Puppyfarmers are unethical Rona Would you help them with a problem??


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> If it's that much of a problem vets should be called.
> I think CC's suggestion of a Whelping/rearing thread is also a great idea.


Yes thats another thing that annoys me more than anything..The questions people ask on here when to be honest they should have been at the vets hours ago !!  I even saw one person say there pup was hanging out the mums bits and had been like that for 3 hours in that sack.."what should we do" I nearly dropped to the floor..People do need to see that the vets are the best place in them sort of problems..if its that bad then it should be a vet not us..we are not qualified..


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

rona said:


> So, an unethical breeder comes on here with a major problem,either with their bitch or puppies and doesn't receive the help they need


If its that much of a problem rona they should be seeking the advice of a vet not an internet forum.

And in all honesty no - i know those pups are innocent as is the bitch, but if we all offer them support we only serve to purpetuate the problem.

By supporting them through that litter they may (and many will in the case of byb) decide that its worth having another litter... and another.... and another

imho sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind (can i borrow your tin hat janice?)

oh and janice - we'll have to agree to disagree. Those people are leaving themselves WIDE open for a trip through the court system!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> If its that much of a problem rona they should be seeking the advice of a vet not an internet forum.
> 
> And in all honesty no - i know those pups are innocent as is the bitch, but if we all offer them support we only serve to purpetuate the problem.
> 
> ...


Totally agree!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> If its that much of a problem rona they should be seeking the advice of a vet not an internet forum.
> 
> And in all honesty no - i know those pups are innocent as is the bitch, but if we all offer them support we only serve to purpetuate the problem.
> 
> ...


l*ol yes i have 2.... as for the courts well that can be said about almost anything these days. i know i come across as uncaring i'm not, i just view things differently.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

I just want to add here - incase there is any misunderstanding!

I have said in my previous post that anyone who through ignorance or accident (as is the case with many pet owners, they are unfortunatly ignorant of the availablility of mismate etc), should of course be offered support ang guidance, along with a friendly lecture about it not happening again 

The same support should be offered to someone kind enough to rescue a pregnant dam from irresponsible breeders and puppy farms.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Never read that bit Colsy. Sorry I thought it had sort of kicked off when the question was asked about improvement/ achievement


I actually found this very rude.
I posted on the breeding thread as i know there are many experienced breeder's on here who would help and possibly guide me.
I did not deserve that comment.
My dog's are very special to me.
I think if it goes off topic the person who causes the grief should just back away from the computer.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing and i do believe we should share it.
Forget the pedigree and cross thing for a mo stand back THEY ARE ALL DOG'S and all should be treated with the same respect in breeding.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Rona
I am glad some members are working very hard behind the scenes to stop trouble and I wasn't having a dig at any of those including the moderators.


I don't think you can stop people posting whether ethically breeding or not but if the general "flavour" of the forum is against indiscriminate breeding whether for money or from the cutesy one litter brigade. Then hopefully that will filter through to pet owners and potential pet owners who read this forum that that is not the correct way about getting a pet and therefore may in the long run do a bit to dry up the markets for puppy farmers and BYB and those who are not really responsible.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Totally agree!


But who is going to decide who is a genuine pet breeder in trouble or a puppy farmer?
I know it's ridiculous, but we all know the sort of questions some people ask on here when they should have already gone to the vet, but if we don't answer the questions, how much longer will they let that dog suffer before they think it's time to seek veterinary help


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> l*ol yes i have 2.... as for the courts well that can be said about almost anything these days. i know i come across as uncaring i'm not, i just view things differently.*


True but more and more unethical breeders are finding themselves in court,it's not just about the breeders and owners,it's about the pain and suffering to the animal(s) concerned.
Breeders are liable and maybe forced to re-compensate vet bills and legal fee's which can run into thousands.
No more than they deserve in my opinion as I said in a previous post it's negligence.


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi All,

I would say that most pet owners who consider breeding their pet havent got a clue about health tests etc... and dont even consider to ask for any advice before breeding or probably dont even think to check the internet.

There are however some of these who do decide to check on the internet for advice and end up stumbling across PetForums. These people then make a post on here about breeding and quite often than not, they feal like they are being attacked by members on here about how irresponsible they are. I think this is a real problem.

These people will then more than likely decide to leave the forum because they feal they are being bullied and just carry on and breed their pet without any very helpful advice which they could of received from our members.

I know we are all up for giving our advice on ethical breeding which we all support, but im thinking that if we gave our advice in a positive and constructive manor, these people will take it on board and learn from it, rather than just carrying on without thinking it through.

I have said this several times before, but it is never really listened too. Giving advice in a positive manor is more likely to be taken on board than giving advice in a blunt and negative way. So please everyone, think, before replying to some peoples threads.

Thanks


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> True but more and more unethical breeders are finding themselves in court,it's not just about the breeders and owners,it's about the pain and suffering to the animal(s) concerned.
> Breeders are liable and maybe forced to re-compensate vet bills and legal fee's which can run into thousands.
> No more than they deserve in my opinion as I said in a previous post it's negligence.


Agreed !!!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I just want to add here - incase there is any misunderstanding!
> 
> I have said in my previous post that anyone who through ignorance or accident (as is the case with many pet owners, they are unfortunatly ignorant of the availablility of mismate etc), should of course be offered support ang guidance, along with a friendly lecture about it not happening again
> 
> The same support should be offered to someone kind enough to rescue a pregnant dam from irresponsible breeders and puppy farms.


Exactly!
Remember the Chloe thread ?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

petforum said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I would say that most pet owners who consider breeding their pet havent got a clue about health tests etc... and dont even consider to ask for any advice before breeding or probably dont even think to check the internet.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

petforum said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I would say that most pet owners who consider breeding their pet havent got a clue about health tests etc... and dont even consider to ask for any advice before breeding or probably dont even think to check the internet.
> 
> ...


Thing is Mark..i find 9 times out of 10 you start helping then it all kicks off after the OP doesnt like the advice given no matter how nice you have said it..or how nice you have asked a question..Its still questions they do not want to answer..
You could look through everythread i have replied to in this section that has kicked off and 9 times out of 10 you will find me and other members trying to help..But as soon as we ask them a question thats it they dont like it..But to me respect goes both ways if we are willing to help then they should answer..witch they dont like so it all ends up another long and tiring debate !

Oh and belive me im not acting like an angel because i know im not and i do get involved in them all..But its not always how it seems and its not always us picking on newbies either.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

petforum said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I would say that most pet owners who consider breeding their pet havent got a clue about health tests etc... and dont even consider to ask for any advice before breeding or probably dont even think to check the internet.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mark,
I believe some of us have tried to do that,
We have asked questions such as is your bitch KC registered,what tests has she had done,have you showed her,had her accessed,etc....Then we get jumped on by others saying is it really necessary etc,usually from those who don't breed and don't have the first idea about it either.
Yes I do believe it is necessary to ask these questions.


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## rottiesloveragdolls (Nov 2, 2007)

petforum said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I would say that most pet owners who consider breeding their pet havent got a clue about health tests etc... and dont even consider to ask for any advice before breeding or probably dont even think to check the internet.
> 
> ...


*Very good advise Mark I also feel some members can be a bit abrupt in their replies, but also I can understand their passion in how pets should be tested/treated and learn as much as they can before they breed from them. *


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Thing is Mark..i find 9 times out of 10 you start helping then it all kicks off after the OP doesnt like the advice given no matter how nice you have said it..or how nice you have asked a question..Its still questions they do not want to answer..
> You could look through everythread i have replied to in this section that has kicked off and 9 times out of 10 you will find me and other members trying to help..But as soon as we ask them a question thats it they dont like it..But to me respect goes both ways if we are willing to help then they should answer..witch they dont like so it all ends up another long and tiring debate !
> 
> Oh and belive me im not acting like an angel because i know im not and i do get involved in them all..But its not always how it seems and its not always us picking on newbies either.


Do as I do now Just stay away from unethical breeding threads It saves yar sanity lol Let the ones who state we are bullies answer and help out thats my opinion


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Thanks Mark,
> I believe some of us have tried to do that,
> We have asked questions such as is your bitch KC registered,what tests has she had done,have you showed her,had her accessed,etc....Then we get jumped on by others saying is it really necessary etc,usually from those who don't breed and don't have the first idea about it either.
> Yes I do believe it is.


and the thing is the people that jump on us are people that are 9times out of 10 NEVER in the breeding section giving advise unless its to jump on us! 

lmfao..clueless im trying just to stick to the threads that i know will not kick off...But thats just it the people calling us bullies do not help..


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Thanks Mark,
> I believe some of us have tried to do that,
> We have asked questions such as is your bitch KC registered,what tests has she had done,have you showed her,had her accessed,etc....Then we get jumped on by others saying is it really necessary etc,usually from those who don't breed and don't have the first idea about it either.
> Yes I do believe it is.


*Ok this is the type of thing i was getting at.Why do people feel the need to ask these questions? this is NOT a dig its a genuine question.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

petforum said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I would say that most pet owners who consider breeding their pet havent got a clue about health tests etc... and dont even consider to ask for any advice before breeding or probably dont even think to check the internet.
> 
> ...


What happens then though mark? When they have been asked sensible questions, shown they dont give a monkeys for the advice given, and then gone on the defensive. Its at this point the threads degenerate.

I fully agree with you that they should be offered well thought, polite constructive advice. Flaming someone no matter who they are or where they come from is unacceptable, however what happens when they choose not to take the facts and advice given?

By allowing them to remain on the forum we are supporting bad breeding practices.



sallyanne said:


> Exactly!
> Remember the Chloe thread ?


Yes! And others like it where people have tried to help!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> and the thing is the people that jump on us are people that are 9times out of 10 NEVER in the breeding section giving advise unless its to jump on us!
> 
> lmfao..clueless im trying just to stick to the threads that i know will not kick off.


Totally agree DD,they can't offer the OP any advise but start mud slinging at us.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok this is the type of thing i was getting at.Why do people feel the need to ask these questions? this is NOT a dig its a genuine question.*


Well I would feel the need to ssk so that I knew if I was or was not supporting/assisting Irressponsible Breeding Practices But hey ho thats just me


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Devildogz said:


> i find 9 times out of 10 you start helping then it all kicks off after the OP doesnt like the advice given no matter how nice you have said it..or how nice you have asked a question..Its still questions they do not want to answer..


That is very true, or someone has answered the question nicely to be treated to a tirade as to that isn't the case at all due to A, B and C, but no-one was told A,B and C in the first place.

There are quite a lot of fiesty, defensive, self opinionated people out there who ask questions but when you read the whole thread it is obvious that they had made up their minds anyway no matter how many very respected knowledgeable people advised them as to the correct course of action.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

clueless said:


> Well I would feel the need to ssk so that I knew if I was or was not supporting/assisting Irressponsible Breeding Practices But hey ho thats just me


Same here and with my breed I feel it's more important to have had the bitch tested as it really wouldn't be nice if she was to take her first fit whilst whelping.

We have enough badly bred pups about I don't want to encourage breeder's to breed even more.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok this is the type of thing i was getting at.Why do people feel the need to ask these questions? this is NOT a dig its a genuine question.*


for the same reason that if i posted a thread in the training section i would expect to be questioned as to my current training techniques, age, breed and history of my dog. You cant give a full and proper reply without all the info available.

If someone wants advice about what pup to get, we ask what experience they have, family, lifestyle etc - and then give informed advice.

Its all very well advising about whelping for an average dog, but if you have a bull breed which often needs a c-section you could be giving dangerous advice. Thats an example. Another example would be a x-breed mating of a small bitch and a large dog - it could spell disaster and there would be other things to look out for....

without the info being available how are we to answer properly? Yet by asking the questions we get accused of flaming!

On another note,

This is a forum, we are allowed to give our opinions and ask questions. If someone chooses to not respond to those questions then thats their perogative. However I can fully understand why in such an important subject those that avoid the questions or refuse to answer them may find themselves appearing to have something to hide. A good breeder will shout their test results from the rooftops, will advise and admit the faults and positives of their dogs and will happily supply any information about their dogs and the breed they love so much. Those that refuse to or hide it - in general have something to hide.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Same here and with my breed I feel it's more important to have had the bitch tested as it really wouldn't be nice if she was to take her first fit whilst whelping.
> 
> We have enough badly bred pups about I don't want to encourage breeder's to breed even more.


Exactly I do not agree with Unethical breeding in the real world so why should I drop my principes for a forum


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> for the same reason that if i posted a thread in the training section i would expect to be questioned as to my current training techniques, age, breed and history of my dog. You cant give a full and proper reply without all the info available.
> 
> If someone wants advice about what pup to get, we ask what experience they have, family, lifestyle etc - and then give informed advice.
> 
> ...


Sorry dont agree i pay for my health tests and they are between all the people involved not a public forum.
It's a forum for goodness sake.
Next you will be asking for drug testing....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> for the same reason that if i posted a thread in the training section i would expect to be questioned as to my current training techniques, age, breed and history of my dog. You cant give a full and proper reply without all the info available.
> 
> If someone wants advice about what pup to get, we ask what experience they have, family, lifestyle etc - and then give informed advice.
> 
> ...


*Fair play to you, some valid points and nicely put across.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> for the same reason that if i posted a thread in the training section i would expect to be questioned as to my current training techniques, age, breed and history of my dog. You cant give a full and proper reply without all the info available.
> 
> If someone wants advice about what pup to get, we ask what experience they have, family, lifestyle etc - and then give informed advice.
> 
> ...


Agreed !!!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Sorry dont agree i pay for my health tests and they are between all the people involved not a public forum.
> It's a forum for goodness sake.
> Next you will be asking for drug testing....


well thats up to you, but i dont know many breeders who having just paid all that money and prayed every day for good results who wouldnt be shouting it from the roof tops!

a bit like a celebration of passing a driving test!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

why do people treat health tests like some super secret files hidden somewhere only to be seen by the chosen ones?

This really is so compareable to those breeders who get bad results after testing and dont want to admit it so try to find excuses to keep them away from the public for the sake of being able to continue breeding without ruining their "name" ....


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> for the same reason that if i posted a thread in the training section i would expect to be questioned as to my current training techniques, age, breed and history of my dog. You cant give a full and proper reply without all the info available.
> 
> If someone wants advice about what pup to get, we ask what experience they have, family, lifestyle etc - and then give informed advice.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this.
The KC keeps a database for our breed with results for all to see,I really do not see the big deal.It's available for every one to see.
I don't see any of the SBT Breeders complaining and shouting about it,but then maybe that's because they really do care for the welfare of their chosen breed.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

_Ok this is the type of thing i was getting at.Why do people feel the need to ask these questions? this is NOT a dig its a genuine question._

Because these sort of questions indicate both the depth of knowledge/experience of the poster and give guidance to what sort of reply is necessary. If you give too much detail it can be misconstrued as patronising/insulting, too little is worthless if the poster doesn't even have the most basic hasess.

It also gives the person responding the choice as to whether they want to help and encourage whatever sort of breeder is asking a question. There is no reason for anyone to feel obliged to help with what they consider to be unethical breeding.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> for the same reason that if i posted a thread in the training section i would expect to be questioned as to my current training techniques, age, breed and history of my dog. You cant give a full and proper reply without all the info available.
> 
> If someone wants advice about what pup to get, we ask what experience they have, family, lifestyle etc - and then give informed advice.
> 
> ...


wow just back up with this thread!

excellent post Sal


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> well thats up to you, but i dont know many breeders who having just paid all that money and prayed every day for good results who wouldnt be shouting it from the roof tops!
> 
> a bit like a celebration of passing a driving test!


LOL That is me LOL I am only to happy to reveal a test result. If its good all the better but the bad also imo has to be shouted from the rooftops


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

clueless said:


> LOL That is me LOL I am only to happy to reveal a test result. If its good all the better but the bad also imo has to be shouted from the rooftops


I'm not sure the bad has to be shouted from the rooftops, but a good breeder would advise others with the same line and the breed clubs about the problem and would of course spey/neuter that dog so the problem wouldnt be perpetuated!


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## Mary05 (Aug 25, 2009)

I personally think this is a form of racism and feel the underlying need for this suggestion is feeling threatened/competition. I don't feel any differently towards my crossbreed than my pedigree Lab and cannot understand why all this fuss about crossbreeds or designerdogs. I would love a Jackerdoo or cockerpoo but Willem wants a Bassettcrosspoodle a Boodle.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

It was a suggestion to help tackle the arguments that are always here regarding the two subjects..Not to start trouble or upset anyone..! Its not a form of racism at all...Crazycrest has no problem with cross breeds..We owned them for years before we got into the cresteds!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Mary05 said:


> I personally think this is a form of racism and feel the underlying need for this suggestion is feeling threatened/competition. I don't feel any differently towards my crossbreed than my pedigree Lab and cannot understand why all this fuss about crossbreeds or designerdogs. I would love a Jackerdoo or cockerpoo but Willem wants a Bassettcrosspoodle a Boodle.


I certainly dont feel threatened I'm not a breeder and i own a well bred cross breed and a rescue pedigree!

I really dont think its about threat or competition - the real issue for MOST people on here is about if the dogs and pups used are from quality health tested stocks, which arent overbred and are being produced for a reason other than money.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Mary05 said:


> I personally think this is a form of racism and feel the underlying need for this suggestion is feeling threatened/competition. I don't feel any differently towards my crossbreed than my pedigree Lab and cannot understand why all this fuss about crossbreeds or designerdogs. I would love a Jackerdoo or cockerpoo but Willem wants a Bassettcrosspoodle a Boodle.


Form of Racism !!!! lol read all the threads its more about responsible v irresponsible breeding that is not choice of dogs


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

I think by the results of the poll, the members have given their answer.
Have you noticed how most people are voting but not commenting on this thread?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

This is exactly it...people cant even mention cross breeds with out being some sort of criminal..

Rona-They dont want people to know what they voted thats there fault..i tried to get crazycrest to do the poll where you see who voted what


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mary05 said:


> I personally think this is a form of racism and feel the underlying need for this suggestion is feeling threatened/competition. I don't feel any differently towards my crossbreed than my pedigree Lab and cannot understand why all this fuss about crossbreeds or designerdogs. I would love a Jackerdoo or cockerpoo but Willem wants a Bassettcrosspoodle a Boodle.


and i love my crossbreed as much as i love my huskies its because i love all dogs that i dont agree with the unethical breeding of either pedigrees or cross breeds.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> This is exactly it...people cant even mention cross breeds with out being some sort of criminal..
> 
> See dont fuel the fire....


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> This is exactly it...people cant even mention cross breeds with out being some sort of criminal..
> 
> Rona-They dont want people to know what they voted thats there fault..i tried to get crazycrest to do the poll where you see who voted what


It's not their fault at all, read through this thread and you will discover what the problem is!!!!
Anyone that has a different opinion is being jumped on by you all


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I think by the results of the poll, the members have given their answer.
> Have you noticed how most people are voting but not commenting on this thread?


*
Yes i did notice rona and imo it speaks volumes.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> See dont fuel the fire....


Oh im not..but saying this suggestion can be classed as racism is LOL


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

rona said:


> It's not their fault at all, read through this thread and you will discover what the problem is!!!!
> Anyone that has a different opinion is being jumped on by you all


Who is "you all" please rona !!! and please show me where i jumped on some-one !!  Thanks.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Who is "you all" please rona !!! and please show me where i jumped on some-one !!  Thanks.


None of you have jumped on anyone but it does seem like your opinions are the only valid ones and any deviation from this is deemed as wrong even if only by a little


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

rona said:


> I think by the results of the poll, the members have given their answer.
> Have you noticed how most people are voting but not commenting on this thread?


its a shame  i wish more people would come forward. Then again i often vote on a poll and dont comment. The poll is a simple question, not everyone will feel the need to justify their selection.



rona said:


> It's not their fault at all, read through this thread and you will discover what the problem is!!!!
> Anyone that has a different opinion is being jumped on by you all


i dont think thats the case, i have disagreed with janice but weve agreed to disagree! She's even offered me a lend of her tin hat! :001_tt2:

Imho after the one incident where mark had to step in and close the thread, this thread is proof that a good debate can happen on petforums.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Oh im not..but saying this suggestion can be classed as racism is LOL


Its not far off it to be honest,in a funny sort of way.
Its like bl**dy two tribes go to war.
There's enough war in the world without all this.
Just enjoy your dog's and if folk need help give it to them.
No negatives,if you feel like negatives why not pm them or get their emails.Easy.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

rona said:


> None of you have jumped on anyone but it does seem like your opinions are the only valid ones and any deviation from this is deemed as wrong even if only by a little


ahh so we havent jumped on anyone then? Good, i dont like it and its something (as you know) I am very against.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

rona said:


> None of you have jumped on anyone but it does seem like your opinions are the only valid ones and any deviation from this is deemed as wrong even if only by a little


Oh you just said that "Anyone that has a different opinion is being jumped on by you all" 

Its not that at all..we had all agree that spliting the section was more that likely not the answer..But to find another way to only promote ethical breeding..and i do not think my opininons are the only vaild ones and i havent seen anyone else think the same..Thought it was going along nicely..trying to sort it all out.


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## peppapug (Dec 14, 2008)

I have been silent but reading this and voted not to split the forum. On the point of whether to split it I can't understand any reason why you would. All are dogs and having only ever had pedigrees I assume breeding of crossbreeds is biologically the same as pedigrees! 

I think the question that is wanting answered is responsible verses unresponsible breeding and of course we all want responsible breeding.

I have bred my pug and I did it for a puppy but i don't show and would never breed again so i guess i am a good case for being a pet breeder but i made no money from the litter, nor did I aim to and my bitch is now due to be speyed. I asked advice from this and other forums, not because i didnt know the answers, i had spoken to my girls breeder and read every bit of litereature i could but because reassurance is required i asked again! I think that's what a lot of people use forums for, to invisibly test their knowledge to be right. To the experienced it probably comes across as "you should know that or shouldnt be breeding". They do, but are just checking (in some cases!).

I avoid the breeding section as i like to read the stories but i don't feel confident enough to advise and it does get passionate and confrontational at times but it is still a fountain of advice. Long may it continue, unsplit!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Oh you just said that "Anyone that has a different opinion is being jumped on by you all"
> 
> Its not that at all..we had all agree that spliting the section was more that likely not the answer..But to find another way to only promote ethical breeding..and i do not think my opininons are the only vaild ones and i havent seen anyone else think the same..Thought it was going along nicely..trying to sort the it all out..ahh well more fool me.


I used the wrong terminology I'm not perfect like all of you :001_tt2::001_tt2:


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Its like bl**dy two tribes go to war.
> There's enough war in the world without all this.
> Just enjoy your dog's and if folk need help give it to them.
> No negatives,if you feel like negatives why not pm them or get their emails.Easy.


Yes it is like a war..and one that never needed to happen.. I have nothing against cross breeds..


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

rona said:


> I used the wrong terminology I'm not perfect like all of you :001_tt2::001_tt2:


lmfao...im far from it Rona and you know it!!


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Here's a deal why don't we all just focus on closing the puppy farms we could do this as a forum.
Come on who's up for it????
Think this would be one step in the right direction.
Also there is enough members on this forum to get cracking.


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## Mary05 (Aug 25, 2009)

Huray some common sense. What a good cause Colsey


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

There are already many organisations working on puppy farms.

Originally Posted by Rough 
There are plenty out there.
Just google and you will find.

Then maybe a need for you to start a Doodle Forum and all share your Doodle knowledge.

_You know we already do that thanks!
But we have the right to post elsewhere we are not lepers_

Is it really the experienced breeders who try to help who have an attitude problem on this board? I think not! :cursing:


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> There are already many organisations working on puppy farms.
> 
> Originally Posted by Rough
> There are plenty out there.
> ...


I do think by you saying for us to start a doodle forum is a little bit rude.
We actually own one and have done for 2 years.
But why do i need to only post on there.
I have other pets too and my dogs are dogs.
Thought this was a Pet Forum.
Am i mistaken.
Rough where's your introduction and what sort of dog's have you got?
Being a groomer would you refuse to groom my cross breeds or would you take the money ?
See i can ask them too ?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

_I do think by you saying for us to start a doodle forum is a little bit rude.
We actually own one and have done for 2 years._
And how would I know that? It was posted as a serious suggestion to learn from other Doodle breeders successes and failures.

I haven't posted an introduction because I joined to see what sort of forum this is. As it happens I have never come across a forum before that positively encourages irresponsible breeding by people with no knowledge.

_what sort of dog's have you got?_
You wouldn't be remotely interested in my life-time of experience as a groomer, breeder, exhibitor or Veterinary Nurse. That's not the sort of thing that would impress you.

I am happy to help anyone who wants to learn but am not prepared to accept the ethics, sarcasm and rudeness of the majority of members here with just a few hitting their heads against a brick wall and doing their best to uphold some sort of standard.

This is not the place for me, so you'll be glad to hear I'll be gone, and leave you all to your own devices.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Come one dont kick off please..No need for anyone to leave the forum..I think we are all trying to work togther to do something..It will take time and it will need everyone to pull together on it.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Come one dont kick off please..No need for anyone to leave the forum..I think we are all trying to work togther to do something..It will take time and it will need everyone to pull together on it.


True i have stuck with it.
Still here you have to ride the waves.
I have a bl88dy good life jacket.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Well I disappear for a few hour's & come back to a different thread 

There have been many fantastic posts made in my absence, so thank you for that, it's been an interesting read that's for sure!
We all know that something needs to be done & all I was trying to do was find a way of solving the problems for everyone, seem's that this is not the way forward, but has brought up a few more suggestions to think about which can only be a good thing imo!!! At some point even this thread needed moderated unfortunately...It was not my intention to cause more work for the people behind the scenes, but to try & help them with a way around the many arguments that happen daily & infuriate many members!

I have alway's been happiest in the breeding section, where I've been able to share with some the knowledge I have from past litter's & other breeder's misfortunes & I have alway's done my best to steer clear of any thread which I believe will turn into a slanging match...to date I've done quite well, but only because I bite my tongue...I shouldn't have to do this in an ideal world!

I will continue to try & work around it & see what happen's in future threads, but on no occasion will I ever post a helpful comment to someone I don't feel deserves it....I will only help those that are willing to help themselves & that means responsible, ethical breeders whom have the very best of intentions from the outset & I know for a fact that any responsible breeder will feel exactly the same! It's different if the mating was accidental & the person has done what they can to sort out the problem, as I've seen in some cases & also for those who may have taken in an already pregnant female...We can try to educate these people to take the responsible course of action unless of course it's too late!!!

There's more to breeding than chucking two animals in a room :smilewinkgrin:


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

as ex pure-bred breeder and now mix bred breeder i thing the issues are the same, and bickering (or reading some ) is part of the fun of being in a forum, if it was meant to be ONLY informative, then a lecture theatre would be better...

but this is my opinion...


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> A good breeder will shout their test results from the rooftops, will advise and admit the faults and positives of their dogs and will happily supply any information about their dogs and the breed they love so much. Those that refuse to or hide it - in general have something to hide.


i am not trying to fuel the war some have talked about...
but (and this is not only my opinion but have discussed this with some very experienced and expert geneticists) some of the test that "so called responsible breeders" shout from the rooftops have no real value in assessing the characteristics of the brood bitch and the dam and consequently those of their offsprings, and also some of tests suggested by clubs (in the UK and in other countries) are there only to justify intervention from the breeders' clubs. having said that, it is well known that some other tests (and unfortunately there are only few of those and others that will be necessary are not available) have the great merit of weeding off bad carriers of genetics faults...but it is not for the inexperienced (or even for the very experienced but without the necessary background) to know which test is necessary and which test is a waste of money...
fact is that i see (and the geneticists i have talked with ) in the breeding clubs and various associations a host of bad practices carried on and justified by "testing for faults" practices...
now i understand i am touching a delicate point, but that seems to be the reality and it has nothing to do with reputation of the breeders, pure bred breeding or mix breed/designer dogs and whatever other breeding practice you care to include...

proper breeding practices, for some reasons are well understood and certainly practised to the highest of standards in conservation programmes (where the gene pools of animals are very limited nonetheless faults are weeded off) and not at all applied in livestock, cats, other pets and dogs breeding programmes...where there is a mountain of £££ interests (only a little part of that goes to conscientious breeders...) willing reputable breeders are often driven by sheer passion and sometimes without enough knowledge to the detriment of the canines...

well, i stop here cause i think i have said more than enough and (without being my intention) i might have stirred a few hate-vibes in my direction...

sorry!
best
d


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Im afraid i dont find the bickering fun at all..and i know most people on this forum do not find it fun to read..
Dimkaz no one would hate you for your views


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> i am not trying to fuel the war some have talked about...
> 
> but (and this is not only my opinion but have discussed this with some very experienced and expert geneticists) some of the test that "so called responsible breeders" shout from the rooftops have no real value in assessing the characteristics of the brood bitch and the dam and consequently those of their offsprings,
> 
> ...


NOOOOO no hate vibes from me! If you ask janice nicely she may have a spare tin hat - weve both got em on ready for the showe


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Im afraid i dont find the bickering fun at all..and i know most people on this forum do not find it fun to read..
> Dimkaz no one would hate you for your views


exactly!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> NOOOOO no hate vibes from me! If you ask janice nicely she may have a spare tin hat - weve both got em on ready for the showe


*haha i now know my role in life, to supply tin hats. anyone else want one?*


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *haha i now know my role in life, to supply tin hats. anyone else want one?*


haha i dont need one cus im not posting on breeding threads but i do still read them


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

cav said:


> haha i dont need one cus im not posting on breeding threads but i do still read them


I dont need one because i have my partner in crime ! ! !


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *haha i now know my role in life, to supply tin hats. anyone else want one?*


:devil:

You need a new nickname now!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> :devil:
> 
> You need a new nickname now!


*haha tin hat and draws.:001_tt2:*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *haha tin hat and draws.:001_tt2:*


lmfao!

lookin good janice  :001_tt2: :devil:










ps.... sorry for the thread hijac!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

hahahahaha you plonkers :lol:..cant have a serious convo can we ay!! GOSH !!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

This has been very interesting catching up to do. The only question I would have a problem with is "is she a purebred KC reg." as that doesn't really matter health tests for the breed or breeds is good. My sheltie and collie are KC my shihtzu isn't. I have thought of breeding again for several years now, but alas with the sheltie it is not meant to be so she will be fixed. The collie well shes only 20 mths they don't do hips here until 2 yrs, so before then she will go back to the breeders for an evaluation from her. I don't show don't want to show but we do agility and obedience and she's from working lines although her dad is pointed. Although I knew to ask about health tests on the parents etc. I learned alot from this forum before I bought the collie, so was not upset at all when the breeder said she would want to evaluate her herself before a decision was made on whether to breed from her. Responsible breeding is the big thing not whether they are KC reg or not. And when the collie gets her hips score and eye results I will probaly be so elated if they are good I will be yelling out loud if they are bad I will be crying as I type out the results and book her spay appt....Jill


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> lmfao!
> 
> lookin good janice  :001_tt2: :devil:
> 
> ...


Janice is that really you........


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Colsy said:


> I actually found this very rude.
> I posted on the breeding thread as i know there are many experienced breeder's on here who would help and possibly guide me.
> I did not deserve that comment.
> My dog's are very special to me.
> ...


but its not rude
if i was going to breed, i would be looking on how and what i need to improve
you should be picking out a stud dog that compliments your bitch and hopefully will improve your line
all i know who breed work on these lines
the whole idea on breeding is to improve your breed ,what ever it is


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

clueless said:


> Well I would feel the need to ssk so that I knew if I was or was not supporting/assisting Irressponsible Breeding Practices But hey ho thats just me


i agree
breeding is a mindfield
and anyone can put 2 dogs together
with the health problems we see in dogs today
and i,m talking all dogs, pedigree and crossbreeds
doing research is important


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

animallover111 said:


> Janice is that really you........


lol yep, god aint i a looker? pmsl



majortom said:


> but its not rude
> if i was going to breed, i would be looking on how and what i need to improve
> you should be picking out a stud dog that compliments your bitch and hopefully will improve your line
> all i know who breed work on these lines
> the whole idea on breeding is to improve your breed ,what ever it is


*ok i'll put this to you and others. my kai is such fun and full of life itself, he's not KC reg. now my Mia is kc reg. but in the nicest way she's so docile(sp) its unreal..now i would LOVE to see how their offspring would turn out,is that so wrong?*


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## Baby Bordie (Jun 21, 2009)

Lmao, You people are crazy! Atleast im a sensible one that can keep the forum going!  :001_tt2:


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

to DevilDogz, 
thanks, i feel good knowing i can express my views!!!


to billyboysmammy,

give that you dissected my post, i think i have to be as precise as i can be (without having the chance to consult with any of the geneticists that i usually talk to...)
please allow for some simplifications as though i am scientist myself, not a geneticist, more of a social scientist...

well: point 1) buying a pup that has been tested is a good idea ONLY if the tests were appropriate to discern from GENETIC faults common to the breed otherwise it is just a gimmick to extort more money from buyers...

as it was put to me: if a dog call it A has an anomaly in a precise strip of DNA (let's call it x) and a dog B an anomaly on a different and unrelated strip of DNA (call it y), for hip displasia but the dog do not present any symptoms then the tests done to x-ray and scoring have no meaning at all, they will be perfect!...but, by mating them you will have several possibilities, the most common are the following 2:

a) increased chance of the offspring of getting the condition given that they can get it either from the strip x or the strip y of their DNA or even from both strips conjointly; 
b) have a healthy pup, that is inevitably carrier of bot defective strips (in which case, even if the pup grows to be a healthy dog with great hip tests/scores, then he can pass on twice as likely the disease to its progeny...

you see where this is going?
hence my advocacy for *appropriate tests*.,..*not any test[ has to be good/B] that means nothing if not covering the back of the breeder when brought to court! 
(but then one has to consider the amount of knowledge that this simple process requires and the good of the animal rather than the wallet and this applies to the breeders' clubs, the pet owners who's got the bug for breeding or experienced breeders that have been breeding for decades with excellent results but are now facing with breeding within and increasingly shrinking gene pool...). and in my last phrase lies also another true (according to my geneticist friends: take any of the most popular breeds in the UK or in any other country - notably Japan, they are probably worse off than in the old continent - ...in the last 20 years you can see an increasing number of dogs being produced...and this is good....but a decreasing variety of the gene pool...meaning that for the production of the these dogs they have used ONLY the CHAMPIONS of some fashionable showing or working ability etc etc... meaning that they are getting all related to each other... increasing the chances of passing on the same strips of genetic material that clearly cripples the dogs).

your second point:
any university - level textbook of genetics is a good start to understand how genetic variation spread between pairs (and faults too), then accordingly to what are your interests, you only have to google (in google scholar) for example dogs genetics....and you have a mountain of hits...unfortunately there i cannot help because they are way too specialistic.

next point: in my opinion extra test (or worthless tests) is bad practice because they don't test for anything real and give out the image that the breeder is good breeder for having followed the guidelines of the breeders' clubs he/she belongs to...to the prospective new owner of the dog that, in so doing has been conned (probably not by the breeder, but by the clubs who has an interest that such tests are carried out whether justified or not)...and ULTIMATELY DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD to the canines.

re. the last point: scientifically there is wast knowledge of how to improve breeding practices and how to carrying on mating even from a small genetic variety, BUT, while the principles are applied by conservationists who make no money - they are actually always on the brink of financial disaster - and care only of saving the "white tiger or the wolf or the panda...or whatever" from extinction....ONLY BY USING the knowledge that is available out there manage to constantly produce and rescue the species by programmed breeding of healthy specimens and are able to overcome even some of the genetic fault that are present within the gene pool.. WHEN there are interests regarding shows, trials, and all sorts (including pedigrees and the registries that go on since the late 1800s) THEN best practice are overlooked in favour of other practices (let's call them second best in absence of an appropriate definition) that make the clubs appearing like they care, the responsible breeders, in good faith, follow the guidelines....and what you have is a disastrous population of inbreeds that struggle to survive crippled by all sorts of avoidable illnesses.

once again i am no geneticist, but anyone, knowing the the dogs genome has been fully sequenced, knowing how faults transmit through breeding...just using a piece of paper identifying the faults *through appropriate genetic testing* and scouring for compatible match (which is extremely easy to do as i have been shown) any breeder don't need to be a genius to follow the suggestions of the tests and obviously, drawing the family tree of the dogs helps in identifying when/where the genetic variation is lacking...

once again i would point out that i am not lecturing (or is not my intention if it looks that way), but only trying to explain what i have been thought, and please don't take my words as given, as i am basing what i've typed on what i remember from the endless discussions that have had with my sister (who is a geneticist working at Edinburgh University) and her colleagues and what i have read...not having in front of me my notes nor the books and the papers i have consulted.

hope this helps a bit

best
d*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> to DevilDogz,
> thanks, i feel good knowing i can express my views!!!
> 
> 
> ...


*

WOW! Thankyou for taking the time to reply in so much detail! I'm out of rep but will make sure some is winging your ways soon!

OK -

I want to clarify if what i understand you to be saying is in fact correct - in very simple laymans terms.

1 - genetic/health testing is only beneficial when you are testing appropropriatly for health problems known within the breed.

2) Breed clubs are responsiblefor misleading the members by not fully disclosing either the correct tests or advocating the use of inapropriate tests for conditions not prevalent in the breed.

3) in your opinion a good breeder should know the family tree of their dog going back several generations (and forward via litter mates)... in order to identify genetic anomolies and then have those screened for by geneticists?

Sorry if i have got this wrong :blushing:*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*The vote says it all.*


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

dimkaz said:


> as it was put to me: if a dog call it A has an anomaly in a precise strip of DNA (let's call it x) and a dog B an anomaly on a different and unrelated strip of DNA (call it y), for hip displasia but the dog do not present any symptoms then the tests done to x-ray and scoring have no meaning at all, they will be perfect!...but, by mating them you will have several possibilities, the most common are the following 2:
> 
> a) increased chance of the offspring of getting the condition given that they can get it either from the strip x or the strip y of their DNA or even from both strips conjointly;
> b) have a healthy pup, that is inevitably carrier of bot defective strips (in which case, even if the pup grows to be a healthy dog with great hip tests/scores, then he can pass on twice as likely the disease to its progeny...


Dimkaz I believe you made some excellent points about testing. I do have a good understanding of genetics and inheritance, and cannot understand your above point though.

Maybe I have misunderstood your explanation, but only if a defective trait is dominantly inherited (meaning the dog/bitch used would show the problem and really, how many nimrods would do that?) can an offspring be affected by a condition passed on from just ONE parent, meaning the idea that they can get it from "strip x OR strip y" really is not accurate. Most dominant defects these days have long been culled out, so what breeders are predominantly dealing with are recessives, which need to come down and be matched from each side in order to affect a pup.

In regards to simple recessive traits breeders CAN safely mate a carrier to an established and tested for non carrier and have a 50% chance of having pups that are then non-carriers. At each locus pups only take one allele of the two offered from each parent - there is a 50% chance the defective allele from the carrier will then *NOT* be passed on. (In this circumstance as well no pups will be affected but 50% will be carriers.)

I find this page has very simple explanations with great visuals in the form of punnet squares that make great sense and should be fairly easily comprehended by anyone with a slight interest.

Basic Principles of Genetics: Probability of Inheritance

Of course there are many traits such as hip dysplasia, mitral valve disease which are both polygenetic and recessive, possibly requiring a minimum threshold of paired defective alleles before they present in a pup, (along with being influenced by environmental factors). The incidense of these kind of disorders increases within a closely related population as the likelihood of two and two more and even two more same defective alleles at the related loci matching up are increased unless breeders have carefully selected against disorders in the ancestors - something almost impossible to do without genetic tests available. I've read for HD its expected the number of loci involved is above 10, and it can be different combinations of such that can cause problems. Maybe that is what your explanation was about?

That gets complicated beyond a basic discussion but if anyone is interested here is one link that is worth reading.

Brief Introduction to Genetics

Sorry to be off topic.

On topic, I haven't voted as I fence sit on the idea of splitting the forum. I do find some of the questions defended in this thread as being fine by some rude by me, as they specifically imply breeders should only breed to improve a "breed" or should only be breeding purebred dogs, two points which I am in very much in disagreement of. More thought could be put into the questions asked.

A question such as "have you evaluated the strengths/weaknesses of your bitch and stud" would be much less loaded than "is she registered".

To explain I live in Northern Alberta. Here we have not embraced purebred dogs (only 10% are registered and those would be found mainly in urban areas) and the tradition is to continue breeding landrace dogs or types as has always been done . . . and before it is brought up, that does not mean we do not health test. That does not mean we don't know the ancestors of breeding dogs.

I know I feel that European message of "breed pure only" is very often too much in my face when I read through forums, and I know many others here who feel much the same way.

In Alaska, for pete's sake, they are even trying to push out the sled dog mutt as the accepted State dog and trying to declare the "Alaskan Malamute" as such. This kind of thinking is a slap in the face to those who love our own landraces and traditions and who have ancestors in our own background who were proud of their breeding involvement in these types.

I would not dare walk up to a musher or generational farmer who uses his dogs and imply he should now stop breeding because he does not have purebreds to breed on from so his breedings are now considered "unethical". I know I'd not have a leg to stand on.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

hi comfortcreature, yes, you are perfectly right...
i did try to summarise some of your points in another post...in my usual simpleton ways (once again sorry, i am very interested in the subject but i do not hold any degrees in genetics or related fields)...
i'll copy/paste it here so i don' have to re-write something without going back to check my notes etc etc...
this is from a thread initiated by colsy on mating a poodleXgolden retriever 
{quote}
hi, (please read the following in its entirety as picking only one bit and taken out of context won;t make any sense): F1 crosses usually does not require testing unless both breeds suffer genetic ailment in the same chromosomal alleles or have some dominant genetic faults. breeding back to one of the breeds making up the cross then can cause problems although not likely, the probability is very high and grows rapidly form F3 to F4 onward. there are provisos: in the case of recessive ailments in the same chromosomal bits - that is they have recessive chromosomal faults in the same section of their DNA - will give you pups that are carries and are affected by the ailment. For dominant DNA faults they DO need testing for in ANY section of their DNA (usually by researching the specific breeds make-up of your cross an experienced geneticist will know or find out which is dominant). if any of these faults are found or likely, then the bitch shouldn't be bred from.

a rough explanation can be the following:
recessive faults:

dam effected and sire uneffected => healthy pups but probably carriers

dam effected and sire uneffected => healthy pups but probably carriers

dam and sire effected => ill pups and surely carriers

for dominant faults:

dam effected and sire uneffected => probably ill pups and certainly carriers

dam effected and sire uneffected => probably ill pups and certainly carriers

dam and sire effected => ill pups and surely carriers

Specific information can be obtained from from a BVA geneticist.
re. doing breed common KC tests will be useful only for selling purposes and nothing more because they are comparative *this was referred to the the specific case of that post*. that is the scores are compared to the average and median scores obtained by similar tests carried out on dogs of the same breed and then the BVA suggest to breed from those dogs that have scores below average. i am not aware that poodle X golden crosses have a database with BVA standard tests scores against which you can compare yours. for this reason, i would suggest you strongly enlist the help of a trained and qualified geneticist (at a PhD level for good measure, you can find them lurking in laboratories in your nearest University /department of Biology, Medical Biotechnology, and similar, forget the vet, unless they are geneticist, their usual qualification only covers the basic genetics and you'll need something a bit more advanced than that) and discuss with them the ailments that are common to BOTH breeds and that are DOMINANT and RECESSIVE to draw up your conclusions.

i think the push for doing tests no matter what...is a rather pointless venture and if not done with the necessary knowledge USELESS as genetic illness will be passed on even with clear tests. that's why consulting a geneticist with that specific knowledge will be much helpful in producing healthy pups (from crosses of known parentage) and, if tests are required a swab under the tongue is all that is needed.

My post is ONLY to give a flavour of what's necessary, i am not a geneticist BUT i have recently used the services of one, and this is what i was explained. please be smart for the sake of your dog and her pups, and do your research properly using scientific peer-reviewed publications available at the BVA (or suggested by Veterinarians with specialisation in genetics of the BVA) and not books and articles over the internet written by well meaning people "that have been doing this for decades with outstanding results" but haven't got the necessary qualification and consult a geneticist, they are usually eager to help (for a small fee). just to give you an example...a doctor in genetics has at least 7 years of advanced and structured study on this particular subject ONLY under its belt....for as much as a well informed experienced breeder or a practice vet will not be able to give you the latest scientific insights!
hope this helps
best
d {quote end}

quoting myself, how cool is that?

anyway. also this response was made without consulting notes and or sources just going with what i remembered.... so apologies for imprecisions/imperfections...

to billyboysmammy, your gift for synthesis is commendable! unfortunately is not that clear-cut!

in my opinion, *your first observation is correct* up to the point you mentioned breeds..to make it whole should read something along the lines:

1 - genetic/health testing is only beneficial when you are testing appropropriatly for health problems (known within the breed) affecting the brood bitch and the dam (take out: known within the breed) for one reason:

even within the same breed you can have the same illness coming from two genetic loci...you'll have a healthy puppy that scores great, but carrier of two potential faults in two different spot or strips or call it as you like in their dna...
if you do a simple calculation you'll see that your best odds to have healthy pups (with less genetic faults to pass on) is to mate outside their breed (or within their breed but with no blood in common (if that's at all possible...)
you can imagine the wasp nest this can cause in the "marketplace" ...
*you second point, correct as well*...but, again, not that simple...
the breeders' clubs have massive amount of sponsorships from those who provide certain services, including testing...in a different post you can find that in the US two companies offer the same DNA test but the British KC accept only one...while for example the Italian accept the other, without considering the interests of the breeders themselves....so sometimes dog health issues and breeders and breeders' clubs interests do not coincide...and those who have no saying in the matter are those who usually suffer the most...
*your third point, in my opinion, is again perfectly on the mark*...except i would invert the importance...first know what's wrong in the DNA and then check the family trees to see where the fault originated...

once again, i need to be still very cautious in stating my points forwards...as i am not qualified, but only very interested and have asked for help to qualified people, and i am reporting what i remember from my conversations and my studies...
sorry not to be more precise


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

comfortcreature, re the point you made, just a corrigendum...
if you consider a dominant condition (instead of a recessive like in the example you did...of the 50% chances) my point makes sense ( hopefully) dominance in genetics i think relates to the increased probability of passing it on down a generation rather than be manifest in the subject. (i was give the example of the colour...a white dog with a dominant black "strip" will produce with high probability black pups. (i guess i need to be more precise)...need also checking...


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

dimkaz said:


> comfortcreature, re the point you made, just a corrigendum...
> if you consider a dominant condition (instead of a recessive like in the example you did...of the 50% chances) my point makes sense ( hopefully)


Thank you for all your info it makes very good reading.
I will go back and read again.
I am thinking about breeding but going with a Standard Health Tested Poodle so therefore our puppies would be F1 b's.
But i am still gathering as much info as possible so thank you.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I don't think splitting the sections will help at all.

People say it will stop arguments because the 'pedigree' breeders won't need to look at the crossbreeding section.... but in all honesty, I think their curiosity will get the better of them and they will still look at the threads and be compelled to reply, then the arguments will start anyway. So I don't think it will make an ounce of difference.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> I don't think splitting the sections will help at all.
> 
> People say it will stop arguments because the 'pedigree' breeders won't need to look at the crossbreeding section.... but in all honesty, I think their curiosity will get the better of them and they will still look at the threads and be compelled to reply, then the arguments will start anyway. So I don't think it will make an ounce of difference.


Isnt just the pedigree breeders... Takes two to tango..and we are all as guilty as each other when it comes to breeding..


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Thank you for all your info it makes very good reading.
> I will go back and read again.
> I am thinking about breeding but going with a Standard Health Tested Poodle so therefore our puppies would be F1 b's.
> But i am still gathering as much info as possible so thank you.


genetic's are intresting, hard and confusing lmfao..Good luck with it all..something i havent quite grasped infact im no where near grasping it yet! 
xx


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## shihtzumum (Sep 2, 2009)

I can`t understand why the world of breeding has to be so negative and cut throat, surly breeders weather pedigree or cross should be there to help and give advice not argue and bicker, as long as the correct testing is done and things are as they should be then what is the problem, every breeder had to start somewhere and everyone can make mistakes but hopefully people learn through their mistakes and go on to help others so they don`t make the same mistakes, surly that is what a breeding forum should be about,a place where people can come and share experiences and learn from each other in a friendly manner, i understand that not everyones veiws and opinions are the same but if you are not happy with something or someone then don`t read or post in that thread surly that is better than slagging someone of and causing friction and arguments that just end up hurting people.
JMO
its nice to be nice


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> genetic's are intresting, hard and confusing lmfao..Good luck with it all..something i havent quite grasped infact im no where near grasping it yet!
> xx


I have a dear friend who lives in the States who is also helping me with this side of things.
She knows alot about it but i am still trying to learn.
My OH understands more of this side of things than me.
Its alot to take on board but worth it we think.
Its also great to hear others views on this and this has been very helpful


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> in your opinion a good breeder should know the family tree of their dog going back several generations (and forward via litter mates)... in order to identify genetic anomolies and then have those screened for by geneticists?


this statement is at the heart of good breeding practices ...and is the reason why it is vital to have an accurate record of the ancestors behind the bitch and dog used for breeding - hence the need for a reliable registration system ( a pedigree ! )



> To explain I live in Northern Alberta. Here we have not embraced purebred dogs (only 10% are registered and those would be found mainly in urban areas) and the tradition is to continue breeding landrace dogs or types as has always been done . . . and before it is brought up, that does not mean we do not health test. That does not mean we don't know the ancestors of breeding dogs.


I'm curious to know how breeders from non registered dogs can know the ancestors and what they are likely to produce - unless they are working within a very small gene pool i.e using dogs only from their immediate area.

the big plus of a registration system is that it can be used to identify lines that are carriers of both positive an negative characteristics - health test results are now routinely published alongside a dogs registered name in many countries so if for instance I wanted to use a BSD in France for example I can easily find out it's health status - non -registered dog will not have this data published....and there seems little point in health testing cross breeds because the results of one test on a single dog is meaningless - you HAVE to consider the whole line behind the dog for the reasons stated previously.

I would also dispute that breed clubs recommend tests that are not appropriate to their breed - I have not found this to be the case and if you go onto any breed clubs website they will have a list of tests that *specific* to their breed i.e (copper toxicosis for Bedlingtons, Von Willibrands for Dobes etc etc ) -


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2009)

Dim kaz thankyou for explaining it in a more simplistic form for me lol

I fing genetics fascinating but i am still very very much a novice (i'm still getting my head aronud simple cat colour genetics!)!

Once again thanks for taking the time to explain it for me!

Do you think therefore it would be beneficial to have more details tests? (i dont know if they are already), so that even if two dogs are carriers of a specific disease, the genetic location of their anomoly is pinpointed to the breeder, and the suitable combinations of other "carriers" are given.

e.g.

if dog 1 has genetic anomoly x (e.g. predisposition to hip displasia) - located on point A on the genome

dog 2 has genetic anomoly x - located at point D on the genome

dog 3 has genetic anomoly x - located at pont W on the genome

If i understand you correctly, some combinations of two carriers would not result in affected pups (but would result in carriers, possibly of both genetic anomolys), but others would.

If the tests told you where your dogs anomoly lay, and which combinations would be safe to use - then there would be less need to cull the genepool? 

Or have i got it wrong again lmao - i wont be suprised if i have!


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Dim kaz thankyou for explaining it in a more simplistic form for me lol
> 
> I fing genetics fascinating but i am still very very much a novice (i'm still getting my head aronud simple cat colour genetics!)!
> 
> ...


that's becoming a bit more complicated for a first thing in the morning...(i struggle with two anomalies in different places)...but reading it twice, seems sensible...and usually one mates only two dogs...at a time
heheheh

testing would tell you what's going on in the parents' DNA, they one has to work out the probabilities of what can happen in the litter and eventually test the puppies....and so on so forth to arrive to a safe combination...where the RECESSIVE faults have been eliminated...

and just to stay in topic....all this digging in genetics cammons from my observation that in my opinion it wouldn't make much sense splitting the forum as the issues are common in all canides pure-bred and crosses (and in any type of animal of animal for that matter....with obvious difference from species to species...and breed to breed)


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Bijou said:


> this statement is at the heart of good breeding practices ...and is the reason why it is vital to have an accurate record of the ancestors behind the bitch and dog used for breeding - hence the need for a reliable registration system ( a pedigree ! )


Pedigrees have been kept for centuries by people who are breeders without a registration "system". As to there being - even currently - any "reliable" registration system out there, there is not one more reliable than the "word" of any single breeder. There is not one registration system where breeders do not lie, or have not lied (or been mistaken) about the sire of the pups produced or the ancestors behind. Systems that are now in place for those that want to volunteer to use them (DNA proof of parentage) are proving out the innacuracies of many pedigrees.

So, I would totally agree there is a need for a system for recording ancestry, we have had one forever. Reliability, of course, is always going to be up to those providing the information.



Bijou said:


> I'm curious to know how breeders from non registered dogs can know the ancestors and what they are likely to produce - unless they are working within a very small gene pool i.e using dogs only from their immediate area.


You are kidding right? Was your breed not developed before the clubs? Maybe not, but many/most were, and those breeders seemed to have done a fine enough job keeping track to provide the foundation stock for purebred breeds today. What do you think has changed so as to have so much doubt it can still be done?

To get a 5 gen COI of 0 without any common ancestors takes *only 64 animals*. To get a COI of 0 over 10 gens takes 2046, but that is not really necessary (although easily doable with a slight effort). Population geneticists tell us we just need to keep the COI below 6.25% which even allows for the occasional cousin to cousin mating.

Communities are not so small and so inward that there are only a tiny number of dogs to use or choose from. Communities and dog populations are also not stagnant. New animals come in and leave as people do. Very small gene pools happen when breeders decide they have to use too tight selection criteria, or are perhaps trapped into using only "registry" stock. There are plenty of unrelated dogs to pick over and choose from when you are looking at a general "type" and not trying to produce phenotypically identical dogs, but just a good, healthy well temperamented dog that can perform the job it was bred for.

There is also the tradition of trading "best animals" with farmers from distant places - often distant friends or family members. My mother brought a male back 1500 miles from the East when out to visit an uncle as a teen. She had brought to him a western female of her father's. Many family farms are 300 or 400 miles from their sibling's farms. This trading was not only done with dogs but with other liverstock as diversity has ALWAYS been a consideration with those who farm.

These days knowing people with the same passions at a great distance is even easier via the internet and air travel. Just as one can build up a trust relationship and import from a distance for their purebred, one interested in mixbreeds can as well. If I was in the position to continue in farm collies it would not be difficult to find a breeder to mentor from. I already have connections through family.

History of the Farmcollie

http://www.farmcollie.com/landrace.htm

This is how breeds were created and kept for thousands of years before the registries. I hope those breeding pure are not so pompous that they believe their replacement system for breeding has turned out better and should be exclusively used by all.

*"THE PARLIAMENTARY enquiry into breeding and showing has concluded that purebred dogs are suffering from 'a serious welfare problem'."*

To go with that here is a nice link titled "Eliminating Mutation: The Impossible Dream".

PawPeds



Bijou said:


> the big plus of a registration system is that it can be used to identify lines that are carriers of both positive an negative characteristics


What stops those breeding mutts from knowing the lines behind the dog or the health test results they have had? A registration system doesn't provide this. Breeders provide this.

35 years ago I sat with my Uncle once in a field with his 4 working collies and he named for me every dog behind them for 4 generations, and he knew and had worked with all those dogs and how they worked, and those ancestors were NOT even all collie types, but they all had something to contribute - my uncle was a true landrace breeder as his father was, and that I admire. He could also, BTW, point out every single cow in his large herd and tell me how they were or were not related to each other.

He later went on to be one of the first producers of Beefalo in Alberta . . . forward thinking kind of guy.



Bijou said:


> - health test results are now routinely published alongside a dogs registered name in many countries so if for instance I wanted to use a BSD in France for example I can easily find out it's health status - non -registered dog will not have this data published....and there seems little point in health testing cross breeds because the results of one test on a single dog is meaningless - you HAVE to consider the whole line behind the dog for the reasons stated previously.


Anyone who breeds knows that they must rely on the supplying breeder's word about any outside dog coming in and the history behind it - they very rarely personally know those ancestors past a couple of gens if even that, so please do not try to imply that many breeders do just because they have "official" paper records behind their breeding dogs (although a tiny number of breeders do better than most.) In any system, purebred or non, there will be those that are honest and those that are not . . . there will be breeders who put the effort in, and those who do not.

There is no absolute need of an official type "registration system" to keep records - health or pedigree. Any interested breeder can keep these themselves and pass them on as they see fit as good breeders have always done. The computer makes it incredibly easy these days.

The current trend to publish health data of tested dogs has just begun and is used by and tiny percentage of breeders (this is not "routinely" done in most breeds as you imply - look at the tiny %'s of hips scores reported in breeds that require it, look at the resistance to any kind of openness regarding test results by many in the Cavalier Clubs.) I believe open health registries and info to be a good thing, and those breeding crossed or mutts can also use it - and do, as I have seen Labradoodle and Cockapoo results listed. I hope these become more commonly used by all types of breeders in the future.

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1277356#animal OFA Labradoodle

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1345708#animal OFA Cockapoo

I do not have issue with those that are breeding purebred dogs if they are doing so without harm and putting in the effort - good luck to them in their goals.

I do have issue with the idea that that is the only type of breeding that should be embraced and the effort put in by some to spread that exact message. I also do have issue with it being held up as an "ideal" in countries where it has not been embraced in the past. I hope the aim is not to completely erode the genetically diverse population of wonderful mutts in these countries and aim for purebred dogs only. It is those that want this that I will fight with in memory of wonderful neighbor bred mutt dogs in my past which lived with me 16 and 17 years.

Smart breeders know that the important thing is for the care to be taken so that they know the dog in front of them and as much ancestral history (including results of those ancestor's siblings) as they can. This knowledge is in NO WAY EXCLUSIVE, nor has it ever been, to those breeding purebred dogs.

Purebred dogs have a lower number of heritable defects than mutts, but suffer at a higher frequency from the ones they do have. Those breeding mutts therefore do have more leeway in that they are already working from a larger gene pool and also with stock that has less propensity toward doubled up deleterious recessives and that is just fact.

Some breeders and puppy purchasers/dog owners have a higher tolerance level for dancing with the devil they don't know - at a lower prevalence rate - than others. It seems others want to control more than that. There is room for both in my world and I find it ridiculous that there is a tendency by one group to try to dictate their method to others. I've not seen any proof - in theory or practise - of any one method being superior to others as there is no way of measuring such (it is dependent on the desired results and we all have different desires). As I've mentioned before, I expect we can all be of our own minds on this.


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