# new breeding regulations from 1st October 2018



## WillowT (Mar 21, 2015)

Anyone breeding puppies after 1st October 2018 should be aware that if you make a profit of over £1000 the council can count you as a business & you will need a breeding licence. You will also have to register with HMRC. Any money made from selling of a litter also counts as undeclared income with the benefits agencies . 
This also applies to anyone breeding three or more litters per year, or breeding dogs for financial gain . If that's not enough to stop you from profiteering off your dogs then I can assure the general public will . 
Oh just to add ..You will need a licence number to advertise the selling of your litter on websites in future hopefully including all social media platforms. 

Over 1k in shares ! Just goes to show how passionate you all are about this !!! Awesome job in raising awareness !!!!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Is this just for anyone breeding more than three litters a year? Or literally everyone?


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## WillowT (Mar 21, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Is this just for anyone breeding more than three litters a year? Or literally everyone?


I read it as literally anyone. Not sure if anyone else has heard about it though?


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## WillowT (Mar 21, 2015)

https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/pet-ad...st-do-to-legally-advertise-their-litters.html

Found this online so it may well be true.
Also being discussed on champdogs.co.uk


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Ok so it does mean anyone who breeds more than three litters a year. But I wonder how they then deal with the 'one off' breeders who do end up making hefty profits still.


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## WillowT (Mar 21, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Ok so it does mean anyone who breeds more than three litters a year. But I wonder how they then deal with the 'one off' breeders who do end up making hefty profits still.


Hmmmm, I didn't read it that way. What does the below statement imply? It all seems a bit confusing. Otherwise what is the point in targeting breeders who are propbably genuine and following the book anyway.

From 1st October 2018 onwards, anyone who breeds and sells three or more litters within any twelve-month period (Changed from 5 litters in some areas) - and anyone who breeds and sells dogs for commercial gain is classed as a business, and needs a license.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

From the discussion on Champdogs it’s possible that it will be how the local councils interpret the rules. A number of the breeders on Champdogs are horrified by this as many only have one maybe two litters a year and are now considering giving up. As these people who are, on the whole, the ones that are health testing their dogs it may then start to get even more difficult to find ethically bred puppies in the future. This worries me greatly


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

It's the new The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018 - think it's more aimed at puppy farms, and the like. http://www.cfsg.org.uk/_layouts/15/start.aspx#/The Animal Welfare Licensing of Activities Involvi

"Activities that fulfil one or more of the following criteria are subject to licensing:
1. Anyone breeding three or more litters of puppies per year (unless they can show that none of the puppies have been sold).
2. Anyone breeding puppies and advertising a business of selling them, as defined under the business test outlined above. This is irrespective of the number of litters produced per year. This is not restricted to registered businesses - individuals can also be classed as a business depending on the extent of their activities.
3. Factors that should be considered when determining whether someone is "advertising a business" include:
4. The number, frequency and/or volume of sales - systematic and repeated transactions using the same means of advertising are likely to indicate a commercial activity.
5. High volumes of animals sold or advertised for sale could indicate a business.
6. Low volumes of animals sold or advertised could indicate a business where high sales prices or large profit margins are involved.
7. High range and variability in the breeds traded. A wide variety of breeds being advertised could indicate the commercial nature of the activity.
8. High numbers of advertisements of puppies for sale, including on classified websites, could indicate commercial behaviour, even where there is no actual sale taking place via the internet. This could be high numbers of advertisements at any one time or over a short period of time, and/or regularly.
9. Advertising through a variety of sites, forums or media could indicate a commercial activity."

http://www.cfsg.org.uk/The Animal W.../c. Guidance notes for Breeding Dogs 2018.pdf


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

WillowT said:


> Hmmmm, I didn't read it that way. What does the below statement imply? It all seems a bit confusing. Otherwise what is the point in targeting breeders who are propbably genuine and following the book anyway.
> 
> From 1st October 2018 onwards, anyone who breeds and sells three or more litters within any twelve-month period (Changed from 5 litters in some areas) - and anyone who breeds and sells dogs for commercial gain is classed as a business, and needs a license.


I'm not sure really. Still lots of grey area I think. For example, how can you police it again? Surely the breeder breeding a 'one off' profitable litter would need to declare that money for it to be considered profit?

Still, I welcome any changes that makes it more difficult for puppy farms and BYBs to keep churning puppies out.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> It's the new The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018 - think it's more aimed at puppy farms, and the like. http://www.cfsg.org.uk/_layouts/15/start.aspx#/The Animal Welfare Licensing of Activities Involvi
> 
> "Activities that fulfil one or more of the following criteria are subject to licensing:
> 1. Anyone breeding three or more litters of puppies per year (unless they can show that none of the puppies have been sold).
> ...


Thanks. That helps clarify things.

So this really can affect the ethical and reputable breeders out there, no matter how little they breed.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Siskin said:


> From the discussion on Champdogs it's possible that it will be how the local councils interpret the rules. A number of the breeders on Champdogs are horrified by this as many only have one maybe two litters a year and are now considering giving up. As these people who are, on the whole, the ones that are health testing their dogs it may then start to get even more difficult to find ethically bred puppies in the future. This worries me greatly


This is a huge worry for me too.

We need good breeders & I'm sure the puppy farms & BYBs will find ever more inventive ways to bypass the laws & still make a tidy profit.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Dogloverlou said:


> Thanks. That helps clarify things.
> 
> So this really can affect the ethical and reputable breeders out there, no matter how little they breed.


I wouldn't say so tbh - what ethical health testing breeder is going to repeatedly churn out litters to actually make any profit? Health tests aren't cheap, feeding a litter isn't cheap, providing mental and physical enrichment with various aids isn't cheap, there is only so much time to spare - I'd say people breeding correctly, are probably safe and could prove they aren't a business.

Those churning out litters weekly, various breeds and crosses, zero health tests - they're probably going to have a harder time proving they aren't a business or making a decent profit. Doesn't stop people breeding - basically tries to ensure minimum welfare standards are met with regards to diet, kennel space, housing, mental and physical enrichment for adults and puppies.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

So let me get this right, if a breeder was making over a £1000 per year? they would have to declare themselves as a business. Is that right? I agree with @ShibaPup above, is an ethical breeder who does everything really going to make that much?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Boxerluver30 said:


> So let me get this right, if a breeder was making over a £1000 per year? they would have to declare themselves as a business. Is that right? I agree with @ShibaPup above, is an ethical breeder who does everything really going to make that much?


Someone on the Champdogs site said that this would be gross not nett meaning any expenses are not deducted from £1000 which seems nonsensical. I believe this information cam from the tax man


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## Peggypegs (Jul 16, 2018)

Does the law indicate how they are calculating profit made eg. is the cost of health tests/stud fee being counted as part of the cost of the litter expenses or is the money from the sales of the puppies being counted profit.

It does seem like a law that would benefit puppy farmers and large scale breeders as normal people breeding small numbers of puppies who do everything they can to be health will be put off as they will not want to register as a business when they aren’t. If it was aimed at puppy farmers it would just list those that had bred three litters plus in a year yet is lumping every single person who has ever bred a litter. The law does seem as if it will just encourage big scale breeding as those sort of people will know how to work the system and smaller breeders won’t.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Siskin said:


> Someone on the Champdogs site said that this would be gross not nett meaning any expenses are not deducted from £1000 which seems nonsensical. I believe this information cam from the tax man


By expenses do they mean stuff like health testing, food, vaccinations, microchips etc? So they would literally be going off the sales of the puppies?


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Siskin said:


> From the discussion on Champdogs it's possible that it will be how the local councils interpret the rules. A number of the breeders on Champdogs are horrified by this as many only have one maybe two litters a year and are now considering giving up. As these people who are, on the whole, the ones that are health testing their dogs it may then start to get even more difficult to find ethically bred puppies in the future. This worries me greatly


Why would they want to stop breeding, Is it because they would need a license under the new law?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Boxerluver30 said:


> So let me get this right, if a breeder was making over a £1000 per year? they would have to declare themselves as a business. Is that right? I agree with @ShibaPup above, is an ethical breeder who does everything really going to make that much?


A look on Champdogs will tell you that certain breeds command nearly a £1000 per puppy. A litter of 8 is therefore a lot of profit, so essentially they could be considered breeding for commercial gain according to these new regulations.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Dogloverlou said:


> A look on Champdogs will tell you that certain breeds command nearly a £1000 per puppy. A litter of 8 is therefore a lot of profit, so essentially they could be considered breeding for commercial gain according to these new regulations.


I didn't think about it this way, I thought that any expenses would be deducted meaning that the amount they make per year would be lower but if they are indeed just going off the sale prices of the puppies then yes I can see how that would cause a problem. Plus I don't imagine someone just breeding one litter per year would want to register as a business and licence fees can be pretty expensive


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Boxerluver30 said:


> By expenses do they mean stuff like health testing, food, vaccinations, microchips etc? So they would literally be going off the sales of the puppies?


Yes



3dogs2cats said:


> Why would they want to stop breeding, Is it because they would need a license under the new law?


Because they would have to turn their house/garden into commercial breeding kennels and not do as they do now and have litters born and raised in the home.
I haven't read the entire regulation and am only going what has been said on the the other forum


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Sounds like people haven't seen the official guidance notes I linked above - lots of misinformation and seemingly scaremongering being spread around


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

The money side of things and needing a licence are different issues. 

From what I've read if your turnover from dog breeding is over £1000 it needs declaring to the tax man. But people should always have been declaring income to the tax office ( and DWP if on means tested benefits)

I have tried to read it all but got fed up, but it sounds like if you advertise you're pups you could be classed as a business. As now the amount of litters you breed before needing a breeding licence varies from council to council.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

ShibaPup said:


> Sounds like people haven't seen the official guidance notes I linked above - lots of misinformation and seemingly scaremongering being spread around


I read them and it is confusing me a bit tbh. In @WillowT OP it says that any breeder making over a £1000 per year will be classed as a business. So like @Dogloverlou said this could apply to one litter per year depending on the sale price of the puppies. But your link says it will apply to anyone breeding 3 litters or more per year and says nothing about profit that is taxable. Plus @Siskin said any expenses wouldn't be deducted.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Boxerluver30 said:


> I read them and it is confusing me a bit tbh. In @WillowT OP it says that any breeder making over a £1000 per year will be classed as a business. So like @Dogloverlou said this could apply to one litter per year depending on the sale price of the puppies. But your link says it will apply to anyone breeding 3 litters or more per year and says nothing about profit that is taxable. Plus @Siskin said any expenses wouldn't be deducted.


I wonder if the cost of puppies will go up in order to have enough to cover expenses?


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Siskin said:


> I wonder if the cost of puppies will go up in order to have enough to cover expenses?


I could see that happening if it does work like I think it will. Like I said i'm still a bit confused as to what is going on with this


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I don't really understand this as it's many of the licenced premises that turn out grotty puppies. Many of the show breeders breed for themselves so once they have picked own technically the other puppies have to be rehomed, are people supposed to give them away?
With the tax credits system your yearly earnings work out your next year's income so you could be severely down the next year just because you have one litter. Also where does this help the vulnerable breeds?


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## WillowT (Mar 21, 2015)

ShibaPup said:


> Sounds like people haven't seen the official guidance notes I linked above - lots of misinformation and seemingly scaremongering being spread around


I did ( like i'm sure others did) read the official guidance. I don't think 'scaremongering' is going on but it is defiantly unclear and there is a lot of confusion in general. I guess we will have to wait and see how it is implemented in different areas as I think it is open to interpretation
I don't understand these things much at all I have never bred and never will. but I am saddened by what is happening in this area. I posted this to open up a discussion on it as I realise there are many more individuals here who have more knowledge than me on this subject and i wanted to hear their thoughts. just because it would seem that some are unclear what this means doesn't make it scaremongering.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

Firedog said:


> I don't really understand this as it's many of the licenced premises that turn out grotty puppies. Many of the show breeders breed for themselves so once they have picked own technically the other puppies have to be rehomed, are people supposed to give them away?
> With the tax credits system your yearly earnings work out your next year's income so you could be severely down the next year just because you have one litter. Also where does this help the vulnerable breeds?


Income gained from selling a litter of pups should always have been reported to the tax man, this is nothing new. Also if you make a few thousand pounds selling a litter, it should affect tax credits as its an income. If your wages go up or your hours change, tax credits are affected so I can't see the difference.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

WillowT said:


> Anyone breeding puppies after 1st October 2018 should be aware that if you make a profit of over £1000 the council can count you as a business & you will need a breeding licence. You will also have to register with HMRC. Any money made from selling of a litter also counts as undeclared income with the benefits agencies.


Nothing new here. All income - whatever a person is selling - should be registered for tax purposes. That's been law for years. It applies whether a person is selling photos and paintings at a local fair or handmade craft items online. It applies to farmers who breed cattle and sheep. So yes, it should indeed apply to those that breed domestic animals (all domestic animals). It's all taxable income. Of course whether a person registers for tax is another matter ...........

As for Registering as a breeder - well most of the worst puppy farm/byb are *already* registered as breeders ...they are just never checked. Or of they are they are given a few things they may need to do to 'improve'. There has been no manpower to enforce the regulations before (it's a 2006 Act) and my worry would be that there has been no money set aside to enforce it now. Even the RSPCA say they are powerless as these breeders are registered... are they going to be given the power to check or is that going to be down to the (already overstretched) local council. The new registrations also happily allow the business to register multiple breeds or breed crosses as their registered 'breeds'. So we will still have licenced puppy 'farms' producing multiple litters of multiple breeds.

There is a (very long) list of welfare considerations which most reputable breeders already have in operation. I would love byb and puppy farmers to have to comply to these. Although I think that the idea that 1:20 (one staff member for 20 dogs) is sufficient staff a little remiss. But yes, let's have these registered breeding businesses checked.

It shouldn't squeeze out small breeders - many good ones are already registered through the Assured Breeders Scheme via the KC which has a similar welfare list. But it's sure going to give the council a lot more work and as a Vet has to check every premises I hope there is money set aside by the government to pay for all these checks.

J


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

WillowT said:


> If that's not enough to stop you from profiteering off your dogs then I can assure the general public will .


Actually the licencing and checking of large establishments is more likely to put the breeding of popular breeds and crosses into the hands of corporate breeding companies (which can afford the premises and staff) and out of the hands of smaller breeders - which is what has happened to farming over the years. To be honest done this way and with popular breeds selling at high prices there is profit to be made.............and large registered puppy farms will be there to take the money.

J


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

ShibaPup said:


> I wouldn't say so tbh - what ethical health testing breeder is going to repeatedly churn out litters to actually make any profit? Health tests aren't cheap, feeding a litter isn't cheap, providing mental and physical enrichment with various aids isn't cheap, there is only so much time to spare - I'd say people breeding correctly, are probably safe and could prove they aren't a business.
> 
> Those churning out litters weekly, various breeds and crosses, zero health tests - they're probably going to have a harder time proving they aren't a business or making a decent profit. Doesn't stop people breeding - basically tries to ensure minimum welfare standards are met with regards to diet, kennel space, housing, mental and physical enrichment for adults and puppies.


Yes, and if they price the pups so that they make a profit of under £1,000 they'd exclude themselves from needing a license too - and I can't imagine a truly ethical breeder making such a profit once all the health tests, time off work, care of the bitch and pups is added up.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

I read it to mean that breeders breeding solely for profit, making over £1000. So it will be determining those who breed only for profit. I would think most hobby breeders won't be affected by this as they don't breed for profit, they breed for a pup to further their lines or show, work, compete etc, not to make money.

So, for example a breeder who has one litter of 12 in a year will make a profit, but it should be straightforward for them to prove they are breeding because they want a pup, not profit. It might be a little complicated if they do not have a suitable pup in the litter, so do not keep one and sell them all, Ive no idea how the authorities would try to determine that the breeder was correct or not in saying the litter had no suitable characteristics for agility say, or herding.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Biffo said:


> I read it to mean that breeders breeding solely for profit, making over £1000. So it will be determining those who breed only for profit. I would think most hobby breeders won't be affected by this as they don't breed for profit, they breed for a pup to further their lines or show, work, compete etc, not to make money.
> 
> So, for example a breeder who has one litter of 12 in a year will make a profit, but it should be straightforward for them to prove they are breeding because they want a pup, not profit. It might be a little complicated if they do not have a suitable pup in the litter, so do not keep one and sell them all, Ive no idea how the authorities would try to determine that the breeder was correct or not in saying the litter had no suitable characteristics for agility say, or herding.


Yes, the breeder who used my Cash did not keep any of the puppies. Whilst no corners were cut in terms of expense and rearing the litter etc, profit was made.

I can't see many of these hobby breeders breeding just one litter a year etc registering as a business in the first place. Same with BYBs who do usually breed solely for commercial gain.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

It's not £1000 profit, its £1000 turnover. In most cases that is one or two puppies.


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## Anji Boseley (Aug 28, 2018)

Sorry to join conversation and divert it slightly but am hoping for a little help, as my local council are useless.
I have to Border collies who I breed earlier this year, my girl is due next week. I breed firstly, as my son wants a pup, secondly we want another pup. I know there are hundreds of dogs out there in centres that need homes. But I have two Truly wonderful dogs and I am sure of their upbringing and nature.
My question is, this is a one off breeding,yes she will have more than 2 puppies so I will need to find good, vetted homes for the remaining puppies. I mated her in July, not after October 1st. Will I still be allowed to sell the puppies.
The HMRC part does not worry me,I do not work, receive benefits, I am a stay at home mom who Home schools her 12 year old.
It scares me as I couldn’t possibly keep the remaining puppies, the thought of giving them away to a rescue center or Free to a good home, makes me feel ill.
That’s the worrying part of this new law, accidents do and will happen,what will become of those puppies. I do not want a licence, I will not breed again, The sale of the remaining Puppies will be used to spay my girl and buy my daughter a pc.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

You can sell the puppies so long as you keep the total price from the sales below £1000. That’s how it appears to be reading, but there is a lot of uncertainty and confusion. You may need to be careful over advertising without a license number but nobody seems sure about that issue either. It also depends on how each council interpret the ruling, there is a thought that councils may look upon it as a way of bringing in extra money for themselves.
You can sell the puppies though, just keep the price of each puppy down so that you are within the rules just in case.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Anji Boseley said:


> Sorry to join conversation and divert it slightly but am hoping for a little help, as my local council are useless.
> I have to Border collies who I breed earlier this year, my girl is due next week. I breed firstly, as my son wants a pup, secondly we want another pup. I know there are hundreds of dogs out there in centres that need homes. But I have two Truly wonderful dogs and I am sure of their upbringing and nature.
> My question is, this is a one off breeding,yes she will have more than 2 puppies so I will need to find good, vetted homes for the remaining puppies. I mated her in July, not after October 1st. Will I still be allowed to sell the puppies.
> The HMRC part does not worry me,I do not work, receive benefits, I am a stay at home mom who Home schools her 12 year old.
> ...


Would you not have to declare the money from the sale of the puppies anyway if you are on benefits?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> Would you not have to declare the money from the sale of the puppies anyway if you are on benefits?


My thoughts too. I would imagine you do as it's still declared extra income.


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## Anji Boseley (Aug 28, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Would you not have to declare the money from the sale of the puppies anyway if you are on benefits?


I don't receive benefits of any sort, but I would think if you did you would have to


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## Anji Boseley (Aug 28, 2018)

So I have finally spoken to someone at my council who knows what she is talking about. Her take on it was.
Puppies were breed before October 1st and the ruling is for Puppies bred from Oct over 1st.
She asked lots of questions, which I answered honestly and her reply was that I did not need a license as this was my first litter of puppies, bred before October.
I did point out to her that the new laws were difficult to understand and her reply was, “I’m sure different councils will have a different take on the regulations.”
So I can enjoy the rest of my baby’s pregnancy and enjoy being a Fur Grandmother.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

To be honest I wouldn't particularly take notice of what is being said right now regards this legislation. It doesn't even come into effect until October & even then will take months for local councils/authorities to catch up and start going out to visit breeders etc. The same with the selling for under £1000 stipulation. I can assure you now someone in my breed with a litter due next week will be receiving more than that once the pups are sold in mid October time! 

It's still to much of a grey area IMO to get really caught up in the 'what ifs' right now.


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## Anji Boseley (Aug 28, 2018)

Dogloverlou said:


> To be honest I wouldn't particularly take notice of what is being said right now regards this legislation. It doesn't even come into effect until October & even then will take months for local councils/authorities to catch up and start going out to visit breeders etc. The same with the selling for under £1000 stipulation. I can assure you now someone in my breed with a litter due next week will be receiving more than that once the pups are sold in mid October time!
> 
> It's still to much of a grey area IMO to get really caught up in the 'what ifs' right now.


Thank, you. I know your right, just wanted one less thing to worry about.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I might actually try and get my breeders license. I don't breed often but I want to be within the law when I do.


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## RosieG (Nov 18, 2018)

WillowT said:


> Anyone breeding puppies after 1st October 2018 should be aware that if you make a profit of over £1000 the council can count you as a business & you will need a breeding licence. You will also have to register with HMRC. Any money made from selling of a litter also counts as undeclared income with the benefits agencies .
> This also applies to anyone breeding three or more litters per year, or breeding dogs for financial gain . If that's not enough to stop you from profiteering off your dogs then I can assure the general public will .
> Oh just to add ..You will need a licence number to advertise the selling of your litter on websites in future hopefully including all social media platforms.
> 
> Over 1k in shares ! Just goes to show how passionate you all are about this !!! Awesome job in raising awareness !!!!





WillowT said:


> Anyone breeding puppies after 1st October 2018 should be aware that if you make a profit of over £1000 the council can count you as a business & you will need a breeding licence. You will also have to register with HMRC. Any money made from selling of a litter also counts as undeclared income with the benefits agencies .
> This also applies to anyone breeding three or more litters per year, or breeding dogs for financial gain . If that's not enough to stop you from profiteering off your dogs then I can assure the general public will .
> Oh just to add ..You will need a licence number to advertise the selling of your litter on websites in future hopefully including all social media platforms.
> 
> Over 1k in shares ! Just goes to show how passionate you all are about this !!! Awesome job in raising awareness !!!!


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## RosieG (Nov 18, 2018)

Does this only apply in England ?


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

With my local council you only need a licence if you breed three or more litters. This is on their website.

Even if you only breed once and make £1000 gross you have to declare this to HMRC, this applies to most hobbies not just dog breeding. Declaring income to them is not the same as being a business. Buying a car to improve and sell on does not make you a car dealer unless its a frequent occurrence.


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