# Barking and growling Border collie



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

My border collie has always had a bit of boisterous streak in him, but lately it seems to have gotten worse. He has a few mad sessions but lately hes been starting to bark and growl at us all for no exact reason, he just clicks and thats it. He doesn't stop no matter what we do, even the use of a correction spray doesn't cease it. It goes on for about half an hour sometimes and he's even started to nip/bite us again usually around our legs or hands if we try to put him on his lead. 

Is there any way to control it? We have him booked in for his first training class on wednesday but its just gotten so bad lately.


----------



## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

How old is he?


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

He's just under 6 months old


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> My border collie has always had a bit of boisterous streak in him, but lately it seems to have gotten worse. He has a few mad sessions but lately hes been starting to bark and growl at us all for no exact reason, he just clicks and thats it. He doesn't stop no matter what we do, even the use of a correction spray doesn't cease it. It goes on for about half an hour sometimes and he's even started to nip/bite us again usually around our legs or hands if we try to put him on his lead.
> 
> Is there any way to control it? We have him booked in for his first training class on wednesday but its just gotten so bad lately.


 A lot of mental and physical developements happen at around this age. They tend to be teething. Also they will start to push boundaries and put you to the test to see what they can get away with. People who let their pups off lead before with success find out they wont come back now. They can also where before they were just curious react again with uncertainty to situations sights and sounds. Its all down to a mixture of mental and physical development much like a human teenager.

I wouldnt use a correction spray on him as I said he might be entering the fear of the unknown period and using things like noise interrupters can increase their fear and wild behaviour. Also if hes on puppy food still moving him to a different one with lesser protein might help it can make them hyper and wizzy if they are not burning it up with growth that may have slowed down a bit at this age.

Borders are active dogs so you might want to look at his exercise levels and up them. Not burning off excess energy will make him hyper and over excited.

You are doing the right thing by taking him to training classes. In the meantime if you dont already there nothing to stop you doing traning and learning the basics at home.

If he starts to get hyper just walk away from him dont give him any attention. Dont try to put the lead on when hes in a hyped up state or shout or repetively tell him no it will just add to it. Just say no firmly once and walk away. If he persists just either put him in the kitchen or in his crate if hes got one and leave him to calm down for 10 minutes. Praise him when hes good. Any attention he gets while barking jumping up etc just rewards the behaviour and makes him more likely to do it. Even if it takes you half hour to get out the door. If he starts to get hyped when the lead comes out put it away and him too if he persists. He should learn that the pushy behaviour isnt rewarding when hes calm it is.

With the training and these ploys to curb his behaviour you should begin to gain control. With any training consistency and repetition is the key. Everyone in the family has to do the same thing. Its not an overnight fix you just need to keep at it.

If he has bursts of energy but not biting and growling just take him out side and throw the tennis ball and teach him retrieve. You can teach him to sit before you throw the ball retrieve it and drop it and then sit again to throw it. That way hes burning up energy doing something he loves. The game is his reward and hes actually learning sit retrieve and drop 3 commands into the bargin. Hope these things will give you some ideas and it will help.


----------



## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Excellent advice from Sled Dog Hotel.

When he's barking at you, don't argue with him, just turn your back and ignore him. Collies love a good argument because even if you're shouting at him, he's still got your full attention which is what he's after.


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

We've been doing all this for nearly a week now, and tbh he hasn't got any better, if anything he's getting worse. He's now biting and drawing blood from all three of us. Where should i go from here?


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> We've been doing all this for nearly a week now, and tbh he hasn't got any better, if anything he's getting worse. He's now biting and drawing blood from all three of us. Where should i go from here?


If the problems getting worse and he is biting now I really think the best thing is to get in a Behaviourist to asses him properly and advise you on modifying the behaviour. As I always say on here we are very limited as we cant see the dog and can only really give you tried and tested basic methods and ideas that may help with the problem. If you have tried them and theres not improvement as you said it seems to be getting worse and more intense then you really need someone to actually see him. Your vets should have a list of qualified approved behaviourists. Maybe have a chat with them.


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

Well we've been following our trainers guidance since we started and today things went to a complete halt. While putting his harness on him this morning he completely snapped and went into both me and my dad so badly no one could get into the kitchen. I'm really considering now finding him another home with an experienced handler because to be quite honest i really don't know what else to do. We've done everything to the book and nothing seems to be working with him.


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I'd stop using a correction spray, as that won't help. Go get him checked out by a vet and see a behaviourist.


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

We stopped using it a while ago, he wouldn't listen to it so there was no point really in using it.

We were considering doing that to be honest. We're convinced there might be something the breeder hasn't told us about him. But we have no way of knowing, the poor thing can't tell us himself and I don't really want to do anything myself without knowing its the right thing to do. I could potentially be making it worse without realising.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

When you said you are doing what your trainer said, Is this the trainer at the training class you mentioned in you opening post that you were going to on the Wednesday? Is the trainer an accredited behaviourist also and have they seen him like this? If they havent seen him do the behaviour and/or not a qualified behaviourist then it is possible that the tecniques they have told you are not correct. For example if a dog is fear aggresive. ie the aggressive responses are caused by anxiety and nervousness you have to go about modifying the behaviour a different way to one thats a truly agressive pushy dog. Old school training like pet correctors lead jerking to correct behaviours etc. will only make a feaar aggressive dog or a nervous dog worse. What methods does your trainer use?

The only way to train a dog with behavioural problems is at first to try low key basic methods like ignore bad behaviour and praise and reward good,etc
and if they dont make any difference then the dog needs to be assessed to find out whats causing the behaviour by a qualified behaviourist and then have a tailor made programme to fit the individual requirements.

You could have a final attempt and try this route especially if the trainer at classes hasnt seen the behaviour and is not a qualified behaviourist.


----------



## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Some excellent advice there from Sleddog , but 6 months is very late to start training classes all my puppy buyers are advised that puppy classes are started as soon as the puppy has had there 2nd injection , i have a border collie at my training class who is 10 month old and what a handful he is , but within the last two weeks he has come on , am working with him as well to stop him mouthing (and he bloomin hurts when he does )


----------



## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

I have a british bulldog pup around same age and she has just started the growling lark at us.She doesnt bite though I just ignore her and take her off settee. Once when she wouldnt calm down at all I just put her in kitchen in her bed for 5 minutes on her own and she had calmed down totally. I have noticed its when she is hyper that she does it. She is not a dog that likes to go for walks which I have heard is common for this breed.


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

leoti said:


> Some excellent advice there from Sleddog , but 6 months is very late to start training classes all my puppy buyers are advised that puppy classes are started as soon as the puppy has had there 2nd injection , i have a border collie at my training class who is 10 month old and what a handful he is , but within the last two weeks he has come on , am working with him as well to stop him mouthing (and he bloomin hurts when he does )


That was the actual breeders fault, she lied to us about the age of him until we actually saw the vet who told us he's a lot older than that. We were told he was 10 weeks when we got him, when infact he was 4 months. Now we've had him two months we've got some ground with him but not a lot. We've had everything done like injections as soon as possible. Problem is though at his size now he can give fairly nasty nips/bites and considering we have other animals pottering about i don't really want them getting hurt either.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> That was the actual breeders fault, she lied to us about the age of him until we actually saw the vet who told us he's a lot older than that. We were told he was 10 weeks when we got him, when infact he was 4 months. Now we've had him two months we've got some ground with him but not a lot. We've had everything done like injections as soon as possible. Problem is though at his size now he can give fairly nasty nips/bites and considering we have other animals pottering about i don't really want them getting hurt either.


If this is the case then none of its your fault. A lot mores beginning to make sense now. In addition to his age and late socialisation (not your fault) Do you know if any of the following also apply. Were his parents from working stock. Where was he born and raised. Do you know if the breeder handled them as puppys or gave him any socialisation whatsoever. What sort of area was he breed raised in quiet country side etc. The first 16 weeks of a pups life is crucial to begin socialisation and handling. Given his late age and you getting him plus depending on your answers. I think thats your root problem.
Especially if you live in a built up area. Collies tend to be hyper sensitive in a lot of cases anyway. I think given his early history its a matter of fear aggression caused by anxiety and nervousness and not being able to cope. In this case things like pet correctors austere training techniques would compound the problem. Do you think this could be feasible explanations?


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

I think so yes, we're starting to piece little bits together based on his behaviour. He panics whenever we him into the bath and get the shower or a jug out, he's absolutely terrified of water. It's the same with men other than my dad, he panics. Also around drunk people and if anyone in the house picks up anything wooden like a broom or for example a few weeks ago we were putting some shelving up in our kitchen he went ballistic and it took us at least an hour to get him to come anywhere near us. Theres also the fact he refuses to let us anywhere near his neck which would explain why he went a little crazy when we put his harness on him.

He was born on a farm from what we were told, thats where we collected him from. She had a crate in her kitchen where she kept them inside at night. I saw one of the parents but not the other. The father was apparently a working dog but it said on the papers we were given none of the puppies were bred to be working dogs.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Im convinced now that all his problems or most of them is due to his raising from a pup and late socialisation. I really get the impression that his problems are all stemmed from anxiousness, being nervous and fear. If the breeder lied about something as simple as his age then she could have well lied about a lot of other things too.

Are you in a position to be able to get a behaviourist in for a few one to one sessions so they can assess him properly and find out the extent of his problems and give you on site training to show you how to deal and manage the problems? I really think this is the best way and your best chance to get the problems sorted. There is such a limit to what we can help you with on here. Also did the vet give him a proper through check up inc all his joints limbs etc? As you mentioned his neck im just wondering if he does have some pain or a old injury prior to you getting him. Dogs becoming agressive can sometimes be a pain response. I still think its rooted in nervousness and fear but it he has pain on top that certainly wouldnt be helping. Your vet would also be able to help with finding you a qualified behaviourist.


----------



## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

leoti said:


> 6 months is very late to start training classes all my puppy buyers are advised that puppy classes are started as soon as the puppy has had there 2nd injection


There's plenty of people who start puppy classes at 6 months and I've read of people on here starting at 8 months. Might not be ideal but better late than never. There was a border collie pup in ours, who must have been 5/6 months when we started and she was excellent, very focused and calm, passed with flying colours


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks for the help Sled dog hotel!
We're going to see about getting him to a vet at some point during next week when my next day off is so i can be there to see whats said. But i do think a behaviourist is the next and only option, after having a discussion with my parents im not keen at all on finding him a new home - Every animal in the house deserves a chance and I think I'd be poor ownership on my part if i don't have a good try at helping and preventing the behaviour


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> Thanks for the help Sled dog hotel!
> We're going to see about getting him to a vet at some point during next week when my next day off is so i can be there to see whats said. But i do think a behaviourist is the next and only option, after having a discussion with my parents im not keen at all on finding him a new home - Every animal in the house deserves a chance and I think I'd be poor ownership on my part if i don't have a good try at helping and preventing the behaviour


Good on you well done!! If its any help I had to get a behaviourist to help me with my last but one dog. Very similar upbringing to yours although ok indoors he had the fear/fear aggression problems outside really couldnt cope with the outside world. I had had four dogs by the time I got him and rescues before with problems that I had sorted out myself. With him I was totally stumped so I had to get a behaviourist to help me out on him myself. So dont worry about seeking a behaviourist even people with experience dont always get things right and need help sometimes. Dont forget to let us know how you get on.


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> Thanks for the help Sled dog hotel!
> We're going to see about getting him to a vet at some point during next week when my next day off is so i can be there to see whats said. But i do think a behaviourist is the next and only option, after having a discussion with my parents im not keen at all on finding him a new home - Every animal in the house deserves a chance and I think I'd be poor ownership on my part if i don't have a good try at helping and preventing the behaviour


Where abouts in the UK are you?


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 22, 2010)

Definitely involve a behaviourist. I don't know where you are in the world but I used a guy called David Appleby from Worcestershire, a member of the APBC (Animal Pet Behaviour Council) and there is another guy I know, Roger Mugford in Essex. Both of these people are brilliant! I got to the end of my tether with a dog a few years ago as he was just not accepting my daughter. It turned out that the breeder's grandchild (little girl) used to scream a lot around the pups so as my daughter was young and had a higher pitched voice, he was scared stiff of her. Having been to David and discussed it also with Roger we were able to sort it through clicker training and rewarding. Both of these guys will have websites. Best of luck :thumbup:


----------



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

@hutch - I'm from Sussex!

@Mel - Thanks for the info


----------

