# Poorly George, please help!



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi all, just been out to give my trio their tea and find that George is unwell. Didn't notice anything wrong earlier in the day, all 3 were as eager for food as usual. Tonight however, the other 2 came rushing over but George didn't. This is unheard of as he's always been the cheekiest and boldest of the lot. On further investigation he is listless and just wants to sit away from the other 2. He wouldn't eat any greens or hay or barley rings. No signs of injury, his teeth are perfect, no snuffles, breathing sounded OK. He is 18 months old, neutered male living with another buck and a doe. The only possible thing I could find is that his abdomen seemed a little firm and possibly a bit distended. I have no experience of gastrointestinal problems in my rabbits past or present so I wondered if anyone on here could give me any advice? Obviously will phone vet in morning if he doesn't perk up.


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Bloat, by the sounds of it 

I'd give him some tummy massages to try and move any blockages on, and try syringing water. 

Also, mixing pellets with some water and syringing is good- may get his appetite going a bit. Veggie babyfood also does the trick.

The important thing is that he's getting something into his system, as rabbit guts can quickly shut down without food (GastroIntestinal Stasis).

I'd get him at the vets ASAP too, for a thorough check up.

I hope he's okay!


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks Jordan. I have just seen him having a drink at least which is good, but he is still turning his nose up at every tempting offering I have made. Will try syringe feeding if I can't get him to eat anything of his own accord. Have just had a go at massaging his tummy, any tips on how to massage a rabbits tummy gratefully received as I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly. Things are somewhat hampered by Flo the doe who is outraged that George is getting all the attention and is constantly head butting me to get a stroke.


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Tao2 said:


> Thanks Jordan. I have just seen him having a drink at least which is good, but he is still turning his nose up at every tempting offering I have made. Will try syringe feeding if I can't get him to eat anything of his own accord. Have just had a go at massaging his tummy, any tips on how to massage a rabbits tummy gratefully received as I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly. Things are somewhat hampered by Flo the doe who is outraged that George is getting all the attention and is constantly head butting me to get a stroke.


I've had to massage Flix a couple of times, and I just grab him, massage with the palm of my hand, trying to shift any gas downwards. Needs to be gentle, but enough pressure to move anything along, if that makes any sense?

Just need to isolate what may have caused it. Is he moulting at all? Could be a hair blockage, if that's the case. Massage and water may help move that along. Gassy veg such as cabbage can also bring it on.

I can only feed spring greens, as anything else causes upset tums


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

OK am going to have another go with massage now. He's not eaten anything out of the ordinary but both the bucks are a bit moulty at the moment and he is quite an enthusiastic groomer of everyone so am wondering if it could be hair related. I read somewhere that you can give them cat hairball paste, has anyone tried this? Am a bit nervous of giving a poorly rabbit cat medication in case it makes him worse.


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Tao2 said:


> OK am going to have another go with massage now. He's not eaten anything out of the ordinary but both the bucks are a bit moulty at the moment and he is quite an enthusiastic groomer of everyone so am wondering if it could be hair related. I read somewhere that you can give them cat hairball paste, has anyone tried this? Am a bit nervous of giving a poorly rabbit cat medication in case it makes him worse.


Sounds like it could be a blockage, then.

I'm not sure about the cat hairball stuff- I wouldn't want to risk it unless I knew it was 100% safe, though. Someone else will hopefully be along to confirm that.

For now, syringing water would be the best way forward, as well as good tummy rubs.

Fibreplex is also good, if you can get hold of some- it's a fibre-based paste (hence the name), and restores the balance within the gut, whilst helping to push things through


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Well he's heartily sick of me now. I've massaged again (tummy feels a bit softer? Maybe, or perhaps just being hopeful). Syringe fed some water and some watery food. He took umbridge at all of this and went off into a hidey hole in his enclosure that I didn't know existed and where I cannot extricate him from without moving the hutch. :cursing: He certainly seemed to have plenty of strength and speed when it came to getting away from me and my syringe which I am taking hope from.


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Tao2 said:


> Well he's heartily sick of me now. I've massaged again (tummy feels a bit softer? Maybe, or perhaps just being hopeful). Syringe fed some water and some watery food. He took umbridge at all of this and went off into a hidey hole in his enclosure that I didn't know existed and where I cannot extricate him from without moving the hutch. :cursing: He certainly seemed to have plenty of strength and speed when it came to getting away from me and my syringe which I am taking hope from.


If tummy feels softer, that's a good sign- suggests you've managed to get some gas moved along.

The fighting shows he's not too lifeless, too, which is another good sign. Getting him moving will help- if he's sat in one position, it won't encourage much movement, so at least he's doing that!

Keep an eye on him, try and do a couple more massages- perhaps syringe a bit more water- and try not to panic, as hard as it is.

I know it is horrible- it's so scary when they're like this! If he's anything like Flix, though, all of these measures will help, and he should have perked up again by morning.

Forgot to ask, has he pooped? (I guess it's hard to tell with the three of them in there...). A successful tummy massage normally makes them do an enormous pile of poo!

They like to do this at night time, too, I've noticed. Never during the day when you could easily run them down to the vets


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Hi,

Have you got any Metacam you can give him? He is likely to be in pain.

He needs to be eating and pooing -but don't give him any gassy greens.

If it is gut stasis, it can escalate into something serious very quickly, so do keep a close eye and get him to vets if he deteriorates (I know it is difficult out of hours, but, after examination, the vet may want to admit him to give fluids, pain relief and gut stimulants).

We would give pain relief and sub cu fluids at home first, then it would be off to vets if no improvement, for a drip and gut stims.

Hazyrealitly has personal experence with her buns, and Bernie is an oracle if you need more advice.


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2013)

I would go to the vets, he will need gut stim and pain relief especially if he is still not eating.
The tummy being slightly distended could be a sign of bloat, a blockage and/or pain related.

What you have been doing so far is good but if there is still no eating and/or pooping you will need to get him examined asap.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi, I haven't seen him poop, obviously with the 3 of them in there it is tricky, but I can't see any fresh poop in the area he normally does it. Of course he might just be feeling too ropey to bother going there. He's was having a little wash when I left him. OH thinks I should leave him in peace and stop tormenting him but I really would like to see him eat and poop before I go to bed. 

You are quite right about them always getting sick at night Jordan! Our cats do that too, at night and usually on a bank holiday weekend. Grrrr!


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Yep - it happens to us too, even with lots of meds and fluid at home. 

They're used to seeing us out of hours now.

Why not phone your vet for advice? I would expect them to say bring him in.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi everyone, just an update on George: last night he perked up and had a little to eat. This morning he was the first one to breakfast as usual and tucked in like nothing had ever happened. I've booked him in at the vets anyway just in case, if theu agree about the bloat/blockage will askfor some fibreplex and metacam to have in for the future. 

Thanks a million for being here for me! Esp. to Jordan, I think it may have been my inept attempts at massage that did the trick and I never would never have tried it if you hadn't suggested it.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Bit of a frustrating visit to the vets. They couldn't find anything particularly wrong with his gut except maybe a bit of gas but nothing that would account for him not eating (of course this morning, he's acting like last night was all a figment of my tortured imagination). So they looked at his teeth and decided they want him in for a dental _in case_ he might have some long spurs at the back that are stopping him from eating. When I repeatedly made the point that his abdomen was very different last night and I took in some poos that he had done this morning that were very small, they maintained that this could all be teeth related. I know I'm not the expert but the abrupt appearance of his symptoms and the abrupt disappearance of the symptoms is not singing dental problems to me....also he's had no drooling, never been off his food before, his diet is high in fibre. Anybody got any wisdom for me?

He's now on fibreplex and has some critical care in case he won't eat again. Is he be better just eating his normal diet or should I give him some critical care as well? I was going to give him some anyway, but the list of ingredients include sugars and fruits like pineappple and papaya, stuff I would never normally feed him.

Thanks again for your support last night when I was having a complete flap!!


----------



## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

Tao2 said:


> Bit of a frustrating visit to the vets. They couldn't find anything particularly wrong with his gut except maybe a bit of gas but nothing that would account for him not eating (of course this morning, he's acting like last night was all a figment of my tortured imagination). So they looked at his teeth and decided they want him in for a dental _in case_ he might have some long spurs at the back that are stopping him from eating. When I repeatedly made the point that his abdomen was very different last night and I took in some poos that he had done this morning that were very small, they maintained that this could all be teeth related. I know I'm not the expert but the abrupt appearance of his symptoms and the abrupt disappearance of the symptoms is not singing dental problems to me....also he's had no drooling, never been off his food before, his diet is high in fibre. Anybody got any wisdom for me?
> 
> He's now on fibreplex and has some critical care in case he won't eat again. Is he be better just eating his normal diet or should I give him some critical care as well? I was going to give him some anyway, but the list of ingredients include sugars and fruits like pineappple and papaya, stuff I would never normally feed him.
> 
> Thanks again for your support last night when I was having a complete flap!!


It "could" be teeth related, if he has some spurs right at the back it might have caught his cheek making eating at the time painful. Dribbling is a sign of teeth issues but there doesn't have to be dribble, especially if the teeth aren't that bad.

There are some teeth at the back that the vet will find very difficult to see (even with an otoscope), so the best way to get a proper look is under a ga unfortunately.

Every rabbit is different when it comes to teeth, my Bluey had a spur piercing through his tongue when he first turned up yet he was eating fine (the only sign was a wet chin) yet my Reed (RIP) would stop eating at the slightest difference in his teeth so to me it makes sense to investigate the teeth in this instance.

As for the CC, you don't need to feed that unless George stops eating again but continue with the fibreplex for a couple of days to help get his gut bacteria levels


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks for your advice Bernie. Am just really uncomfortable with him having a GA if he might not even need it. Anyway will not worry about it for the present because they don't want to do it this week to give his guts a chance to recover from not eating.


----------



## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

Tao2 said:


> Thanks for your advice Bernie. Am just really uncomfortable with him having a GA if he might not even need it. Anyway will not worry about it for the present because they don't want to do it this week to give his guts a chance to recover from not eating.


Yeah I fully understand your reluctance, just keep a close eye on his eating habits and if it happens again I would look into it further


----------



## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Glad he is eating again, as summer says, I have first hand experience of bloat, with Rascal - you did all the right things 
I also put him in a cat carrier (with door open) between feedings with a drinks bottle of hot tap water (covered in a towel) because he always feels cold when he has an episode of bloat.
Rascal's bloat is caused by cabbage but he can have greens, so you might want to look at what he has eaten. I feed veg at night, so its in the morning that Rascal is poorly usually.
I also keep metacam to hand so he isn't in any pain - although its out of date soon, and the vets are being really awkward about letting me have a bottle "just incase"

I have taken him to the vets 2 or 3 times after an episode (thanks to having to wait for an appointment) and then they can't find anything.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Think I am going to go easy on the veg for the time being, just in case. They only get a small bowlful though. Georges came on at night before I gave them their greens though so am guessing unlikely to be the cause.

I'm glad he seems so much better but it is frustrating that the vet couldn't find anything, I just feel that the dental thing seemed to be clutching at straws. Esp. as Hazyreality has had similar vets experience following bloat. Will see how he goes over the next few days before I make the decision about him having the GA.


----------



## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

I would leave the teeth investigation and see how he goes if it were me, as I say, Rascal has had as the vet calls it "a touch of bloat" about half a dozen times and he has never had teeth issues. It doesnt mean of course that George definately hasn't but I wouldnt want him to go under GA for a routine check with his guts still getting back to normal anyway.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Teeth issues could cause a doughy stomache, but it wouldn't normally go back to normal without treatment (spurs being burred down). But gut problems can happen for other reasons too. Hazy and Bernie are experts.

Just like Bernie says, rabbits act differently when they have teeth issues. Several of ours are dental buns, and some have tooth root/abscess problems too. some just soldier on and give no signs - no drooling or anything, and no eating/poo changes, then suddenly plummet, others go down at the drop of a hat for very minor spurs.

I would have a look back at what he had eaten, take out the greens for now, give him Metacam and gut stims at the first sign of it happeing again - and give him some of your special massage too!

Did the vet weigh him? I would monitor his weight - if it drops, that could also be a sign of teeth issues.

Hopefully it was just a one off.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi, yes vet weighed him and he was spot on his usual weight (am a bit of an obsessive pet weigher...I keep charts for all the cats and rabbits:crazy. Will knock off the veggies for the next few days. He's eating fine now but most unhappy about the fibreplex I'm forcing on him....


----------



## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I can offer any advice, I just wanted to wish him a speedy recovery.


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Can they not X-ray rabbit jaws without a GA (to check for underlying spurs)? Is there not an option to mildly sedate any other way? 

Just wondering as I've never (touch wood!) needed to have mine prodded and poked, so don't know how sedation works with buns...

Glad to hear he's on the mend!


----------



## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Miffy had 2 bloat/gut stasis episodes the first 1 I'm sure was caused by savoy cabbage (she'd never had it before) and the second was stress related being bonded to my George both times she went straight to the vets. 

if it was teeth troubles I would expect him to generally be off colour, not as active and not eating as much, I wouldnt have expected him to perk up like he has.

There is little harm from a quick dose of GA just to look. 

I've just had one of my hedgehogs looked at under GA and given fluids cost me £13+consultation


----------



## Guest (Mar 8, 2013)

JordanRose said:


> Can they not X-ray rabbit jaws without a GA (to check for underlying spurs)? Is there not an option to mildly sedate any other way?
> 
> Just wondering as I've never (touch wood!) needed to have mine prodded and poked, so don't know how sedation works with buns...
> 
> Glad to hear he's on the mend!


I'm afraid not, because they have to keep so still for the images to come out clear you either need a rabbit that is so flat or they need to be put under a ga.

I don't know any rabbits that will willing lie in the spot you want without moving.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Speaking of rabbits that won't stay still...has anybody got any suggestions for getting the fibreplex in George? He's supposed to have it 3 times a day but he's getting harder and harder to dose each time. He's ridiculously fast and wriggly and now he hates my guts, so I'm feeling very guilty about dosing him with the stuff. It looks nice, smells fine, what's the bloomin' issue? Still, one good thing, dosing a tiny bunny who never bites with fibreplex has actually made cleaning the teeth daily of a 6kg cat who is very handy with both teeth and claws, seem like a doddle!


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

B3rnie said:


> I'm afraid not, because they have to keep so still for the images to come out clear you either need a rabbit that is so flat or they need to be put under a ga.
> 
> I don't know any rabbits that will willing lie in the spot you want without moving.


That's true!!

Although, we do have Charlie the posable bunny at the SAA- you can do anything with him! You can stand him up on his back legs (when you're health checking him, for instance, and having a feel of his tummy) and he just stays there. You stick him on the scales, and he just sits and looks at you with his adorable little face. Where the others scramble to get off, he seems to wait for permission!

He's a dream to health check and medicate!! :lol:


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Could you just bring him round to give George some lessons please? Considering he is normally a total softy, he is proving to have vast reserves of inner wildness that I hitherto had not suspected in him....:incazzato:


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

have you trieda basil leaf sandwich? Works with some buns. Dandelion leaves too, when in season.

But yes, it can be a palava - just wedge them between you legs, then you have both hand free.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Right will try basil leaf sandwich for him, have nothing to lose as everything I own already coated in fibreplex.  Have been cursing dandelion leaves being out of season as that's how I always get panacur in them.


----------



## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm with summer with how to give meds etc...kneal on the floor and reverse the rabbit back in between your legs, hold the rabbit by squeezing with your legs - leaving both hands free. With one had you can then hold the head where to need it and still, and then syringe with the other hand  Plenty of practice in this house, and I've even taught my dad how to do it


----------



## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

hazyreality said:


> I'm with summer with how to give meds etc...kneal on the floor and reverse the rabbit back in between your legs, hold the rabbit by squeezing with your legs - leaving both hands free. With one had you can then hold the head where to need it and still, and then syringe with the other hand  Plenty of practice in this house, and I've even taught my dad how to do it


With me, hubby holds the pets and I fire in the meds. He gets the rough end of the deal


----------



## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

mine normally get squished into and arm/arm pit and then shoot the meds in


----------

