# Please help me stop irresponsible breeding



## Skyin (Jan 23, 2010)

Hi there, I'm new here but I've been a cat lover since I were young and currently have one cat with me. I need some education to stop my friend (or maybe not as close as a friend but I know her) from irresponsible breeding 

She got a exotic boy aged about 8 months not long ago. I'm not very familiar with breeding things in UK as I've never had a pedigree cat. But I suspected the breeder was a bit BYB (learned the word from here). The breeder said he originally wanted to keep the boy as a stud but found him not going on well with the other boys so had to sell her at this age. When we were there we didn't see his parents as we were told he was given by a friend. The cat was not neutered. And when we asked about this the breeder said he knew nothing about this because he's never had any of his cat neutered/spayed. He didn't really push my friend to neuter him as soon as possible, instead he said "it's entirely up to you but no rush". 

I know good breeders should always be very careful about that and stress with the buyer not to breed from their cat unless otherwise agreed. From what I saw from the household I would think he was not a professional or responsible breeder. 

Now my friend got him and wanted to breed from him. I know kittens are cute and lovely and everyone loves them but I personally am quite against those "casual" breedings. This was her second cat - the first one was given away because she's "too naughty" so she wants a quieter one thus chose exotic. I feel she's far from a status which she has enough understanding and knowledge about cats to do responsible breeding. She just wants the kitten for fun but breeding is not always funny!! I don't know if his GCCF certificate is an active one - might well be if the breeder was intended to keep him as a stud. But I'm sure she doesn't mind. Nowadays even if it's a cat without a certificate you can still find loads of people willing to buy it due to the low price. 

She doesn't even mind who he mates to. I felt horrible when she told me she would perhaps get another female moggie to see what these to can make. 

But I don't know what to say to her - I know it's not good but I don't know many reasons for that. Surely you should not against all breedings otherwise breeds or even cats would disappear. And there is no rule saying that having a crossed breed is not allowed. Meanwhile she's not breeding for money, although she might end up selling some kitten. She was telling me something about improving his gene as from evolution point of view hybrid is good....

I don't know if I'm wrong or I shall just be calm with it. Maybe I'm overreacting? Can anyone educate me why you need to be very careful about breeding and what is the reason for not doing what she intended to? 

Thanks a lot.......


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

I think you are taking a very responsible view of it and not over reacting, breeding is alot of responsibility and the person needs some education on the subject which is very extensive. I am a vet nurse and have just got into breeding and even I dont know it all but I do know what can go wrong. Potential difficulties with birth and rearing kittens, mother may not produce milk so she would have to hand rear them, feeding every 2 hrs to start, risks of illness, infection, costs of feeding, vaccinations etc. list is endless, cost of a cesarian if mum has difficulties which is a few hundred and any ohter vet bills. You could try making her aware that cats can have problems and if she does not know much on the subject then I doubt she wont know anything about how to bring up kittens correctly and their needs. 

As for the statement about doing good for the breed by having a hybrid well I have to say it is rubbish, they cannot be sold as anything but non pedigrees even if the dad is a pedigree, and even if she got another exotic are the parents reg on the active reg if not she wont be able to register kittens. There is also the added problem of over population. I am not against breeder at all but I am against people with no knowledge breeding just because they have a nice cat and think wouldn't it be nice to have kittens. Is she doing it for the money because she wont be able to sell them for much either. Plus if she is going to keep the boy I doubt she will be housing him correctly entire males will spray and if she lets him out he will get into fights and may contract a number of infectious diseases of which can be passed onto any female she gets which can also be passed onto kittens or even result in the death of the whole litter.

I honestly think it is not a wise move and shame on the breeder she got him from for not being bothered what she does with him, certainly what I would class a byb, any good breeder would either pre neuter before sale or have a contract clearly stating the cat must be neutered. If she has her heart set on breeding maybe suggest she goes about things in a different manner and does her research first.


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## Skyin (Jan 23, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> I think you are taking a very responsible view of it and not over reacting, breeding is alot of responsibility and the person needs some education on the subject which is very extensive. I am a vet nurse and have just got into breeding and even I dont know it all but I do know what can go wrong. Potential difficulties with birth and rearing kittens, mother may not produce milk so she would have to hand rear them, feeding every 2 hrs to start, risks of illness, infection, costs of feeding, vaccinations etc. list is endless, cost of a cesarian if mum has difficulties which is a few hundred and any ohter vet bills. You could try making her aware that cats can have problems and if she does not know much on the subject then I doubt she wont know anything about how to bring up kittens correctly and their needs.
> 
> As for the statement about doing good for the breed by having a hybrid well I have to say it is rubbish, they cannot be sold as anything but non pedigrees even if the dad is a pedigree, and even if she got another exotic are the parents reg on the active reg if not she wont be able to register kittens. There is also the added problem of over population. I am not against breeder at all but I am against people with no knowledge breeding just because they have a nice cat and think wouldn't it be nice to have kittens. Is she doing it for the money because she wont be able to sell them for much either. Plus if she is going to keep the boy I doubt she will be housing him correctly entire males will spray and if she lets him out he will get into fights and may contract a number of infectious diseases of which can be passed onto any female she gets which can also be passed onto kittens or even result in the death of the whole litter.
> 
> I honestly think it is not a wise move and shame on the breeder she got him from for not being bothered what she does with him, certainly what I would class a byb, any good breeder would either pre neuter before sale or have a contract clearly stating the cat must be neutered. If she has her heart set on breeding maybe suggest she goes about things in a different manner and does her research first.


Thanks so much!! I've been waiting for several days for someone helping me out 

I think people sometimes consider breeding kitten very easy. Maybe yes if nothing goes wrong but if anything happens that'll be very very big. If you only buy a cat for pet then he's only for pet. Breeding is not something someone should easily get to without proper research for a breed and preparation.

I'm sure she's not interested in proper breeding, at least not now. So we should keep simple things simple.

Thank so much for your post and I'll try to talk her into neutering the cat.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Skyin said:


> Thanks so much!! I've been waiting for several days for someone helping me out
> 
> I think people sometimes consider breeding kitten very easy. Maybe yes if nothing goes wrong but if anything happens that'll be very very big. If you only buy a cat for pet then he's only for pet. Breeding is not something someone should easily get to without proper research for a breed and preparation.
> 
> ...


Oh im sorry you have not had many replies, I though it was only a recent post, oh well I think most people would say something similar, neuter if not going to breed seriously and if she did best to start from scratch with knowledge behind her and a proper reg pedigree of which she has breeding rights. Hope you can convince her I am sure she wont want to risk all the expense that could go with it if not for the sake of her cats health


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## Skyin (Jan 23, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> Oh im sorry you have not had many replies, I though it was only a recent post, oh well I think most people would say something similar, neuter if not going to breed seriously and if she did best to start from scratch with knowledge behind her and a proper reg pedigree of which she has breeding rights. Hope you can convince her I am sure she wont want to risk all the expense that could go with it if not for the sake of her cats health


a sorry didn't meant to be rude or complaining - was just thinking perhaps I was wrong and people here were just too kind to tell me 
So it was a great relief to read your post and knowing that I'm not.

I shall update this if she finally agrees to neuter him~


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

This is going to be blunt, but I think a lot of people have read your post and not responded because most of what you say doesn't really add up to the experienced breeder. You say this person is your "friend",


Skyin said:


> (or maybe not as close as a friend but I know her)


, yet you still went with her to see this boy! Then again you supposedly know her well enough to have a fairly indepth conversation about breeding to ascertain that


Skyin said:


> she's not breeding for money, although she might end up selling some kitten. She was telling me something about improving his gene as from evolution point of view hybrid is good


If your 'friend' has given it that amount of thought, who is to say she hasn't considered or isn't aware of all the other pitfalls with having a litter. She may even have had a litter of kittens before. After all you don't know her that well, she is not close enough to be a friend.  so you really have no idea about her experience or thought processes behind her decisions.

The boy in question was sold to her unneutered, and his previous owner appears not to have made any stipulation about him not being bred from so therefore it is her choice surely and at the end of the day *her *responsibility - not yours!!! If she is not that close a friend then why would she listen to you telling her not to do something, no matter how well you backed up your argument. Would you listen in the same situation!! I very much doubt it. Even less if she discovers your post on here  this is a public board after all! She may well have just been thinking aloud!

One thing I am curious about is you say you have never had a pedigree cat, yet recognized a GCCF certificate  What certificate was that? The GCCF do not issue certificates - only for winning opens at shows, but TICA do!!! You also understand the concept of being active. Wow this forum is certainly very informative, you even understand the term byb, even though from memory that has not be explained in a really long time. You certainly did a lot of searching prior to making your post to ensure you used appropriate terminology, which wasn't really necessary if the whole point of your post was to collate arguments as to why someone shouldn't breed just because they fancied it. Funny how this series of 'irresponsible breeders' seem to be connected to the GCCF  How do you also know, if you just have a pet cat that


Skyin said:


> Nowadays even if it's a cat without a certificate you can still find loads of people willing to buy it due to the low price.


At the end of the day, anyone is free to breed regardless of what altruistic feelings you have on the subject. If I took my own feelings on the subject to the same level, I can think of many so called responsible breeders with registered prefix, breeding for all the wrong reasons with cats they barely understand who if I had my way wouldn't be allowed to own a used toothbrush let alone a cat!!!

If the cats and kittens are well cared for, well socialized and found loving permanent homes, what difference does that make to you ? So what if she produces cross breeds, a lot of people prefer them to pedigrees and do think they are hardier, which in some instances that may well be true. You have said you don't know this person very well, so again how can you judge how she will behave in this situation and what she has planned, just because she hasn't thought to give you lots of detail on the subject!!!


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## Skyin (Jan 23, 2010)

Saikou said:


> This is going to be blunt, but I think a lot of people have read your post and not responded because most of what you say doesn't really add up to the experienced breeder. You say this person is your "friend", , yet you still went with her to see this boy! Then again you supposedly know her well enough to have a fairly indepth conversation about breeding to ascertain that


I went to see the boy with her because that place was a bit distance away from where we live and she asked me to give her a lift because she doesn't have a car. She already made up her mind before I ever knew that she was about to buy a pedigree cat. Neither of us knew much about the breeder before we went. Certainly we didn't have the conversation because we didn't think that far!



Saikou said:


> If your 'friend' has given it that amount of thought, who is to say she hasn't considered or isn't aware of all the other pitfalls with having a litter. She may even have had a litter of kittens before. After all you don't know her that well, she is not close enough to be a friend.  so you really have no idea about her experience or thought processes behind her decisions.


It happens that we came to know each other because of cats so I don't know her very well but I know very well about her experience with cats.



Saikou said:


> The boy in question was sold to her unneutered, and his previous owner appears not to have made any stipulation about him not being bred from so therefore it is her choice surely and at the end of the day *her *responsibility - not yours!!! If she is not that close a friend then why would she listen to you telling her not to do something, no matter how well you backed up your argument. Would you listen in the same situation!! I very much doubt it. Even less if she discovers your post on here  this is a public board after all! She may well have just been thinking aloud!


I know it is not my possibility. And I post it here because I know she WOULD consider my advice if I give her good reasons. Otherwise why do you think I wrote the post?? And yes I would listen to other people if I'm in her situation and that's exactly why I'm trying to get some advice here because I think many people here are quite experienced.



Saikou said:


> One thing I am curious about is you say you have never had a pedigree cat, yet recognized a GCCF certificate  What certificate was that? The GCCF do not issue certificates - only for winning opens at shows, but TICA do!!! You also understand the concept of being active. Wow this forum is certainly very informative, you even understand the term byb, even though from memory that has not be explained in a really long time. You certainly did a lot of searching prior to making your post to ensure you used appropriate terminology, which wasn't really necessary if the whole point of your post was to collate arguments as to why someone shouldn't breed just because they fancied it. Funny how this series of 'irresponsible breeders' seem to be connected to the GCCF  How do you also know, if you just have a pet cat that


Why on earth should I have a pedigree to understand certificates?? And you have proved that my understanding of certificates are quite naive and sometimes wrong. I read bits here and there and of course I wound't know it very well because I haven't got a pedigree. Why are you so ironic just because I use some of the terminology here? True I did a lot of research before I post it here because I wanted to find the answer by myself. What's wrong with that?? And at the end of the day I found a lot of different point of views on internet and I didn't know whom to listen to so I posted it on a forum where I can have sort of discussion instead of just a few lines of statement.



Saikou said:


> At the end of the day, anyone is free to breed regardless of what altruistic feelings you have on the subject. If I took my own feelings on the subject to the same level, I can think of many so called responsible breeders with registered prefix, breeding for all the wrong reasons with cats they barely understand who if I had my way wouldn't be allowed to own a used toothbrush let alone a cat!!!
> 
> If the cats and kittens are well cared for, well socialized and found loving permanent homes, what difference does that make to you ? So what if she produces cross breeds, a lot of people prefer them to pedigrees and do think they are hardier, which in some instances that may well be true. You have said you don't know this person very well, so again how can you judge how she will behave in this situation and what she has planned, just because she hasn't thought to give you lots of detail on the subject!!!


You certainly made your point of view clear and I really apperiate that. I'm open to different opinions. I was not sure myself otherwise I should not have asked. I already said that I didn't have any experience in breeding and wanted some education on that. I respect you all as experienced breeders and that's why I'm here for advice.

But the way you were challenging my motivation of the post here is quite annoying.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

I can't imagine this acquaintance of yours will take too much notice of any advice you may try to give as if she is someone who gives a cat away because she is naughty; then decides on a bit of whim to buy another and then look to breed....I think you are possibly on a hiding to nothing however good your intentions are.

I would echo the advice already given in that perhaps you could try to encourage her to do this properly - suggests she contacts a breed club
Exotic Cat Club and asks for help/advice from them. I could imagine though in a little while, if he is not already doing so, this boy will start spraying and there will be another cat looking for a new home because he is "naughty".

Good luck with trying to talk her out of it!


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## Skyin (Jan 23, 2010)

ChinaBlue said:


> I can't imagine this acquaintance of yours will take too much notice of any advice you may try to give as if she is someone who gives a cat away because she is naughty; then decides on a bit of whim to buy another and then look to breed....I think you are possibly on a hiding to nothing however good your intentions are.
> 
> I would echo the advice already given in that perhaps you could try to encourage her to do this properly - suggests she contacts a breed club
> Exotic Cat Club and asks for help/advice from them. I could imagine though in a little while, if he is not already doing so, this boy will start spraying and there will be another cat looking for a new home because he is "naughty".
> ...


Thanks for your advice. I learned from the fact that she rehomed her previous cat that she's having a cat as a pet and only for fun. That was why I thought I might need to point out to her that there are a lot of responsiblities involved in breeding, apart from the fun of having cute kitten. And if she could realise that she might well take my advice. Well at least that's what I hope. If she's really taking it seriously then of course I'll be more than happy to see her do it properly and wish her every success on that.

I now find that it's very difficult to justify my "intention". Does it sound as if i was just trying to intervene someone's freedom of breeding from her own cat??


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

I think you are obviously trying to ensure that she gets into breeding with the right knowledge behind her I assume she does not have experience in the matter. You are right to be concerned if she does not know what she is doing? I agree that you can offer your take on why it is not a good idea and see what happens if she chooses not too listen then atleast you tryed. If all she wants is a nice pet then she wont have a nice pet if he starts spraying, male cat urine stinks really badly, would she want her home smelling like that, the sign of a cat doing that is more than enough to encourage any pet owner to neuter. I think your statement says it all ; she just wants a nice pet'. Does not sound like someone who wants to be a serious breeder. I am sure there are loads of people out there who love cats and would love to have atleast one litter but not everyones does because they obviously realise the hard work and responsibilities that go into breeding cats properly. If she wanted to breed then I think she has possibly started the wrong way round and would have been better getting a girl and taking her out to stud.
I would stress your concerns and the pitfalls in breeding and see what she says I dont think you are being unreasonable it being worried about her plans. If she really has no knowledge or experience then I dont think she will be doing the best by her kittens even if her intentions are good.
As I said she would be better going and doing some research and starting again properly and if she does not want to breed pedigrees due to the expense then there are also moggies but I personally think there are enough unwanted moggy kittens around without someone else further adding to the problem, not when cats are being pts every day for nothing more than lack of a home.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Skyin said:


> I now find that it's very difficult to justify my "intention". Does it sound as if i was just trying to intervene someone's freedom of breeding from her own cat??


Yes it does. If she were a close friend then you would have some basis for your opinions on her abilities/intentions but not as a mere acquaintance.

Really it should only concern you if you think the cat or resulting kittens welfare is at risk and if you thought that was a possibility you shouldn't have taken her to see the cat, as you have already admitted she would not have got there without your help!


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## Skyin (Jan 23, 2010)

Saikou said:


> Yes it does. If she were a close friend then you would have some basis for your opinions on her abilities/intentions but not as a mere acquaintance.
> 
> Really it should only concern you if you think the cat or resulting kittens welfare is at risk and if you thought that was a possibility you shouldn't have taken her to see the cat, as you have already admitted she would not have got there without your help!


I don't classify "close friends" and "acquaintance" in the way you do. I do concern about the welfare of the cat/kitten because of what she did to her previous cat. I have good reason for that but I'm not going to make the post too long here.

I'm not the only people in UK who's got a car! I don't think she would give up buying a pedigree simply because I couldn't take her there. That's naive. And I went with her because I knew she would take my advice or ask for my opinion if I can give her good reason. It'll be more helpful if I get involved.

And she already booked her boy in with vet next week for the surgery. She did some research herself as well and combined with what I told her she realised that there would be too much for her in that. She wanted the boy as a nice company and pet. A neutered boy would certainly do the job.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

All a storm in a tea cup then  Especially as she was more than capable of doing her own research!!


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## Skyin (Jan 23, 2010)

Saikou said:


> All a storm in a tea cup then  Especially as she was more than capable of doing her own research!!


Even though I'm still happy that I pointed it out to her in the first place and backed her up!!
Also, by doing the research myself I learned a lot too!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Good for you


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