# Can someone please help, lunging and biting issues??!!



## Steelbird (Apr 23, 2012)

Hi! Melon is a border collie x beardie, 7 months, Ive had him from 6wks. (Too young, I know now!) From a farm environment so not used to people or being in the house. I gave him too much freedom at first, before the continuous biting became unbearable and I learnt to ignore the puppy dog eyes. He was allowed to sit on the sofa, my bed, etc, not any more! He has always slept in his crate at night. He's house trained, knows sit, shake hands, lie down and sleep. He's learnt to open the door to his crate, go to bed and close the door behind him. We're working on not jumping up at people and to not run out when the door opens as well as recall, which sometimes he does immediately. He gets plenty of exercise and loves other dogs and people. He's an absolute character. But I have 2 issues that are driving me insane. The nipping continues. Sleeves, trousers, hands, toes. His bite inhibition is ok but not great. At home if I use a high pitched ouch and turn away he comes to say sorry with kisses and body rubs but carries on the minute he's been forgiven. If I use time out he's ok for a bit longer but carries on later. The other issue is when we go to the beach or park and he's off leash he barks and barks and barks at me to run, and because I don't, he lunges, jumps and bites me. For the past month I have been stopping the walk, turning away until he stops but the minute I turn around he continues to bark. He wont chase a ball, stick or frisbee, he just wants to run. Last week I got so frustrated I splashed him with water and he just ran after all the other dogs barking like mad until I managed to grab him and leave.
Im so sorry for the massive post but Im at my wits end!!! I want him to enjoy himself but he just wants to drive me mad


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

Oh dear you have got yourself in a pickle I think classes may help you with all this. As you have now found out collies are very clever dogs I do think you should have started some serious training with him earlier as it takes a bit longer for a collie to unlearn some bad behavour. So look around for a good class and have a word with the instructor there for some info.


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## Steelbird (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks Bobbie! We tried classes at 5 months but he was too distracted and excited. I could try again with a different sort of class, maybe one that's more for behaviour rather than obedience? I didn't actually find it very helpful the first time round.
I tried the spray bottle for a month but he just learnt to stand out of reach and bark from farther away!
Does it sound like a dominance issue? It's just nipping at home but he bites me properly when he's off leash. Should I stop the off leash time for a while and concentrate on the mental exercises and learning other obedience? It seems a shame when he loves the sea so much and I worry that by not having off leash time he won't have time with other dogs. This has been one BIG learning curve for me!!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Hi, Steelbird.
6 weeks isn't too young to get a pup. GDB start their training with their puppy walking family at 6 weeks, but I think you've hit the nail on the head, that in retrospect, you ashould have started training earlier.

He sounds a very intellegent likeable dog and you've clearly put a lot of work into him. What I would do, is look for a good training class. One that limits the number of dogs and offers sensible, reward based training. A KCAI or APDT trainer should be your first port of call, but go to see them first, without the dog, to get a feel for it and to see if you like the trainer and their methods. You have to feel confident in your trainer.

I also would stop walking him where he does the lunging/biting thing untill you have sorted his basic training at a class. It's too easy for accidents to happen. If he frightens someone that may be enough for himn to be labelled "dangerous" and out of control. My friend had this exact problem with her rescue dog, who is huge! He knoocked her over and scratched her on the back quite a few times. However, with professional help (and him maturing), she overcame it.

Forget the dominance thing. It's a myth. And a dangerous one. Read Barry Eatons book. It's excellent! very small and a quick read. Just read the comments in the link to give you an idea.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominance-Fact-Fiction-Barry-Eaton/dp/0953303934

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get over this and he'll turn out fab!


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

Can I just add that in my experience, collies do not do adversives well - they either develop phobias which make everyone's life a misery, find them great fun and do everything in their repertoire to try to make you do it again, or figure out your range and just do the behaviour you don't want when you can't do anything about it.
I would go for much more reward based training and make sure you teach commands that are incompatable with the behaviour you want to eliminate (if a dog is doing a "down" or a "sit" then it cannot at the same time be dancing around nipping).
His behaviour off lead does sound very much like frustrated herding so it will take more to eradicate in your dog than it would in breeds not designed to herd livestock. I would try to give him a different job to do while off lead to make him less inclined to herd you - walks with my collie involve several "sit - stays" followed by recalls and I often send him off to the left or right to run round a tree or similar then back to me so his brain is occupied.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

At 7 months, his adult teeth are still settling in his jaws which are still growing. He'll have some discomfort from them, and the nipping should settle to some extent when this process has finished - as long as you keep up with training him not to nip. You are doing the right thing, but as has been said already, the spray bottle isn't working and could lead to phobias. 

It sounds to me like he's desperate for a job to do. It needn't be herding, but could be carrying things for you, agility (he's a bit too young to start just yet), obedience, tracking, heelwork to music - whatever takes your fancy.

Keeping him on a long line and harness will give him some leeway so he can still go in the sea, but he's still under your control. If he wants to run, he could run alongside your bicycle once his bones and joints are more mature.


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## deybecumu (Feb 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Hi, Steelbird.
> 6 weeks isn't too young to get a pup. GDB start their training with their puppy walking family at 6 weeks, but I think you've hit the nail on the head, that in retrospect, you ashould have started training earlier.
> 
> He sounds a very intellegent likeable dog and you've clearly put a lot of work into him. What I would do, is look for a good training class. One that limits the number of dogs and offers sensible, reward based training. A KCAI or APDT trainer should be your first port of call, but go to see them first, without the dog, to get a feel for it and to see if you like the trainer and their methods. You have to feel confident in your trainer.
> ...


This book is also well worth reading and UNDERSTANDING.... Inside of a dog by Alexander horowitz
Barry eaton's book will give you lots of lightbulb moments, simply brilliant and it dispels lots of myths.... SIMPLY.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2012)

Some great advice on here, particularly from speug. 

Collies are my breed and I train thousands of them as pets and a few sheepdogs too.... so have a a bit of good background. 

The biting is frustrated play and should be ENCOURaged !!!! yES encouraged!!! BUT ONOT A TUG TOY. All the behaviours you describe are attempts to get you to play hpw the dog wishs to play. Now its time to teach him to play how you want to play. Get a soft cloth toy (a ripped up plaited pillow case is ideal) and encourage your dog to grab and pull at that, t
with lots of excited noise and movement. Keep the tpy away fromt eh dog when you are not inteacting directly with him, so that he doesnt learn to play solitaire with it. This toy is to be your visual cue to get the dog to interact with you and the tug toy. same as If I bought a chesssboard to you... iyou would know I wanted to play chess with you! 

The barking and jumping up on walks are again, frustrated attempts to initate play. The tug toy may help with this too!!! And if you need to encourage him to play out on walks, try tying the tug to a long line and whipping it across the ground in an effort too simulate a small running furry... this can often encourage play onto a tug. 

Then the tug can be used as a rettrieve toy too! Your dog sounds particularly intelligent, even for a collie so the more you can teach obedience the better . but you also need your dog to learn to chill oout and relax on walks. Make sure part of your walk invovles you sitting and relaxing, maybe read a book, whicle the dog is asked to ie down and stay near you. or allowed to wander freely if he is calm.... or better still given a bone. 

Stay away from foods with colourants in as these can affect your dogs behaviour dfamatically! particularly bakers which is packed with colourants. make sure your protein levels in the diet are appropriate for the age and breed.... and make sure you dont add any protein to the diet unnecessarily. Protein converts into energy, noise and potentially aggression. Frustrated play. often boils oer into aggression if it is not managed particularly in coliies. 

Herding games around a ball or desired object can be usefull too. As can control games where the dfog has to walk toward, stop, lie down, sit, or recall away from a piece of food or loved toy. 

And Emergency down would be great also to cease the unwanted walk behbavour . 

Hope ther eis something there that will help you. I wish you well with what is surely best breed in the world. Good luck. Denise x PS Sorry about typing, in a mad rush and fingers to fast for brain.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm sorry, I don't agree with some of that, Denise. In my experience, further stimulating an already over stimulated dog is only going to make the problem worse. My friend had this exact same problem and when she tried to excite the dog to play with her when he was jumping up and already over the top, he lunged at her, bit her on the back (he broke the skin, through her fleece)knocked her over. She twisted her back very badly in the fall. This was under the instruction of a behaviourist. It seems to be a bit dangerous, when a dog is so psyched up, to make it even more so. They will then be completely unable to listen to you and learn.

I have 30 years experience with border collies and have competed in agility for 10 of these. My dogs all come from working (that is sheep herding and trialing) backgrounds.

I'm sorry if I have misunderstood what you are saying, though.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

I have always trained my collies with a very calm approach I find that they learn better this way. I found mine love a game of hide and seek ( me being the person who hides ) that way they have to watch you at all times because they don't know what you will do next.


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## deybecumu (Feb 18, 2011)

and there you have it,all dogs are different and all people are different.


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## Steelbird (Apr 23, 2012)

Oh my goodness, thanks everyone for your help and lovely comments! It gets quite confusing as a new pup owner when it seems there are so many different methods being used. I feel so relieved that you replied to my SOS! 

speug	, That is exactly what he does!! It's just like telling a kid off who puts up with it the first time but the next time comes back with a new way round it! 

I am very glad he's not a boring dog but I swear his eyes take on a strange glint like he's gone mad when he's excited. Is it normal for collies to zig zag in front when running? Is he herding me to stay in a straight line?! Cheeky bugger!

My plan:
1. Find a new class. 
2. Buy both recommended books.
3. Limit off leash walks to one area. (Awesome dog park with fresh water pond, if he's swimming he can't bark or lunge lol!)
4. Walks will consist of lots of obedience and healthy treats and chill out time, learning to chat to other dogs nicely on leash etc. 
5. He will absolutely LOVE the pillow on a string! But I'll play that in the garden so I can disappear if he's naughty.

Thank you again everyone!! I'll hopefully be back in a few weeks with news of a well behaved Melonator!  xx


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## sammiii (Mar 17, 2012)

Hi steelbird, I've got a new border collie, she's 3 and a rescue, we have had her for about 4 months now and shes usually very calm, but I totally know what u mean about the glint in her eye and you can sense the mad 5 minutes are about to start! She's also pretty nippy when in this mood, and we now direct this into either basic training or onto a chew toy/tug. It seems to be working well at the moment but she actually prefers to play alone at the moment, she also becomes totally fixated on the toy then calms down then is fine!


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> I'm sorry, I don't agree with some of that, Denise. In my experience, further stimulating an already over stimulated dog is only going to make the problem worse. My friend had this exact same problem and when she tried to excite the dog to play with her when he was jumping up and already over the top, he lunged at her, bit her on the back (he broke the skin, through her fleece)knocked her over. She twisted her back very badly in the fall. This was under the instruction of a behaviourist. It seems to be a bit dangerous, when a dog is so psyched up, to make it even more so. They will then be completely unable to listen to you and learn.
> 
> I have 30 years experience with border collies and have competed in agility for 10 of these. My dogs all come from working (that is sheep herding and trialing) backgrounds.
> 
> I'm sorry if I have misunderstood what you are saying, though.


Hello Old Shep and thank you for your comments ... Of course everyone has differet set of experiences and each dog/owner reatoonsip is unique. All experinces are to be respected for they are evidence of different methods that do or dont work. And im sorry to hear of your friends experince. At CaDeLac, we have found that since wee have increased the use of tug toys to build owner / dog relationships and redirect play intentions from the dog onto something suitable.... we have found a lot less of the types of issues that the Op described. If course there can always be excpetions ot the rule and anyone finding advice on a forum to be unhelpful should seek the personal direct advice of someone with specific experince in this area.

I take on board the experince that you describe and respect it ... I respect everyones experience.... but I offered what I have found to be very usefull advice in this sort of circumstance and I accept that others may disagree. I can only speak on behalf of the experince that we at CaDeLac have had,. And for us, tug tpys and a range of other simple efective techniques, have turned around many many misunderstandings and unwanted behaviours ... Ill be interested to see how this situation pans out and look forward to seeing the conclusion.

From your picture I assume you train sheepdogs??? Brillaint - a like minded individual..... Where abouts are you in the country Id love ot talk more... Ive got on ein trianing at the mo.... though Im currently without sheep due to continuous travelling.... but if your training working dogs woudl love to chat more...... 
Thanks again for and respect to you for your comments and experices. Best Regarsd Denise x


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2012)

Bobbie said:


> I have always trained my collies with a very calm approach I find that they learn better this way. I found mine love a game of hide and seek ( me being the person who hides ) that way they have to watch you at all times because they don't know what you will do next.


Again a great approach and great fun for dog and owner/


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## deybecumu (Feb 18, 2011)

:closedeyes:thats what you call a s**t sandwich.


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## debtherat (Jan 29, 2009)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Some great advice on here, particularly from speug.
> 
> Collies are my breed and I train thousands of them as pets and a few sheepdogs too.... so have a a bit of good background.
> 
> ...


Sounds like my collie :lol:!Out of interest.. the added protein thing..i have 3 bitches and most evenings i cut a little from their dried food and share a small tin of sardines or pilchards between the 3 of them with some fresh veg. How much protein is *too* much..as in potentially detrimental to behaviour?


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## Guest (May 4, 2012)

debtherat said:


> Sounds like my collie :lol:!Out of interest.. the added protein thing..i have 3 bitches and most evenings i cut a little from their dried food and share a small tin of sardines or pilchards between the 3 of them with some fresh veg. How much protein is *too* much..as in potentially detrimental to behaviour?


If only there where a definitive answer. It totay depends on teh dog.... Its the same as humans.... some dogs amnd peple react in big ways to little things and some don't.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I'll be interested to see how you get on OP.

Our rescue dog Molly who is a lab/lurcher cross shares some of your dog's traits. She's a dreadful madam when it comes to play biting so we often have to put in the conservatory for time out. She even gets OTT with the kong  In the garden, whilst lose she'll hurl herself at us and bit - in over excitment but with the use of treats she'll now sit before she approaches. However she does seem to go 'into herself' and the eyes will roll and then she'll go nuts with no idea which way to run. As for being off lead in public - not yet. The rescue says she was okay with other dogs but a little lacking in manners. She'll growl at some, wag at others so we're keeping her on lead until she's grown up (10-11 months old now).

Our trainer is doing a home visit with us this week to sort out the hurling and play bit, maybe that's a good way for you too? As has been suggested on here, we're going for the calm approach and are not going to indulge in tug toys yet. I think we'll progress to that through clicker training at a later stage. I'll report back on how Wednesday's one to one goes.

It is tough - we thought long and hard about an older or young dog and decided on young Molly but realise now that her time in rescue has resulted in a few bad habits. It does make it hard to love them through and through on those exhausting days.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

Steelbird said:


> Thanks Bobbie! We tried classes at 5 months but he was too distracted and excited. I could try again with a different sort of class, maybe one that's more for behaviour rather than obedience? I didn't actually find it very helpful the first time round.


I don't know enough about dogs to help you with the rest, but a good trainer or a good class would work with you and show you how to gain focus and attention from your dog, a five month old dog is likely to find it very exciting at first but a good class will help you overcome this and give you lots of help and advice.

Naomi


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

Hiya - it sounds like you've done loads of really positive stuff with this pup already so give yourself a pat on the back for that.

My dog was the age of yours when we got him and he had no bite inhibition. His play bite was HARD and he would lunge up and keep going. It was unpleasant and distressing.

A one to one with a trainer taught me this method and it was the best thing I learned with my dog:  Teaching Bite Inhibition | Dog Star Daily

It's not too late to teach your pup how to have a soft mouth on human skin before eliminating the biting altogether.

I used to stand in my coat and shoes with my back to him because he was so full on but it only took a month to get him to touching my skin with gentle teeth only then another few months to eliminate the touch altogether too. I'm sure it would have been quicker except that I just didn't always notice when he was doing it!


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## Steelbird (Apr 23, 2012)

Well, half a year later I have an awesome dog!  

When I first posted I was seriously wondering what the heck to do with him, he was a very wilful pup (And I'm not a push-over!) but a lot of training has paid off. 

I've learnt it takes an awful lot of patience, the right information and consistency to grow a happy dog that you want to spend time with  

He's over a year old now and we're still learning and teaching each other and I hope it continues for a long time.

I thought I'd repost to let others that may have similar feelings of wtf feel like they're not the only ones with a nightmare puppy and that it's all worth it haha!

And forums like these with advice from people with experience were an absolute life-saver! So thanks everyone for taking the time to reply  x


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Oh that's wonderful news.

I remember your original post and so pleased you're now enjoying your young dog.

I've no doubt he's an awesome dog - a very good friend of mine has the same cross and her bitch is an obedience champion..!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

It is brilliant to hear an update - so pleased for you!


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