# Kitten contract



## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

Hi folks was just wondering how legally binding a kitten contract is, and what happens or can happen if i dont get my cat dressed. thanks,


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I doubt very much if it is legally enforceable - if it is legally enforceable, the only remedy as I see it would be for the court to award the seller the difference in price between a pet kitten and a breeding kitten. 

I have to say, though, that if you wanted to breed you should have told the breeder so at the time and obtained a kitten on the active register. You are likely to make yourself very unpopular indeed if you breed from a kitten when you signed a contract to say you wouldn't!

You could try approaching the breeder and saying you would really like to breed and see if she will allow the kitten to go on the active register. It's a longshot but worth a try. You would need to research it a bit first so that you come across as responsible, and you'd need to make it very clear that you were willing to be mentored.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

If I was the Breeder I would come take the cat back from you.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I really don't mean to sound like a total bitch, but the fact you refer to a neuter as "getting the cat dressed" .... well, it says to me you have very little knowledge of cats in general -- and you want to breed? Do you think you have enough cat knowledge to breed (ehtically and responsibly breed I mean, obviously, as any old idiot can be a back yard breeder) 

Are you sure you want to breed with a cat sold on the inactive? Have you spoken openly with the breeder and asked if he/she has any objections? You did after all enter into a contract... evn if it is not 100% water tight LEGALLY, surely you have ehtical obligations too? 

Why can't you just honour this agreement with this cat, then look for another (active register) cat to breed with.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> If I was the Breeder I would come take the cat back from you.


Oh and I would contact my lawyer regarding the "*legally* binding contract".

................and yes what Tje said, although this is your first post so am hoping our trying to liven things up a tad.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

It depends on the wording of a kitten contract as to how legally binding it is, it also depends if it was signed by all parties and the contract was witnessed and signed by a third party.

What you need to consider is some non-active registered cats are registered non-active, because they are deemed by the breeder to not be suitable for breeding purposes.

This can be for a number of reasons, they for example might have a slight fault in there colouration or markings,that the breeder does not want passed on to off spring.

Some breeders realise that the kitten contracts are not totally legal binding,and will hold onto Pedigree documents until proof of neutering is recieved.

Yes you could breed without the breeders knowledge, but your kittens would not be viable to be registered,some breeders will allow you to pay the difference from Pet price to show price,and I suggest this be a route you consider first,however this does depend on whether the original breeder agrees with the kitten purchased being suitable,and whether they deem you knowledgeable enough to breed.

Whether the case would make a court room would depend on a number of factors,wording of the contract,whether you signed and agreed the terms and conditions,how willing the breeder was to pursue such a case.

There are some breeders that are very passionate about what they do,and about protecting there cats lineage.

Contact the original breeder,ask their advice they might be very helpful both in helping you with advice and guidance, and also you might be able to negotiate a solution with them with regards to your present cat.


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## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your replys i am not planning to breed from my cat i was just wondering as i am kind off thinking if she is not ill there for not needing an opp, then why bother.Things might change, just thinking. Also how is it possiable for the breeder to remove the cat? she is not neglected,abused or ill treated she is a happy well looked after cat.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Do you have a contract ?

Does it state the cat will be removed if Agreement of Terms are breached ?

If yes, she can take the cat back, if no she cannot, it depends on how passsionately people feel about their breeding.

I early neuter and have a legally binding contract so people like yourself cannot breed from my cats, it saves me turning up on doorsteps etc.....

I think this is a wind up so am off to do something less better instead..................


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## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

Ok thanks, no i dont have a contract, i signed a piece off paper but it was not witnessed by anyone sorry if you think i am stupid or a pain or waisting time but i was just wanting some advice,


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

She may well be fine at the moment BUT leaving a female cat to call over and over again can lead to serious complications such as pyometra and some reproductive cancers - that's just the physical aspects. The female cat can also suffer from mental problems due to not being able to mate. Calling is very stressful for any cat and stress can lead to a cat with a compromised immune system, leaving them wide open to viruses and infection, not to mention loss of condition.

As a lawyer, I word my contracts along the lines that the cat must be neutered/spayed by ***** months, failure to neuter/spay is considered to be neglect, and neglect is a perfectly legal reason to take back the cat (and charge the neglectful "adopter" any costs relating to neutering/upkeep/rehoming).

I would strongly recommend that you have your girl spayed.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I very much doubt if any breeder could simply go and remove the cat, unless the cat happens to be sitting on a wall outside. Even bailiffs with a court order cannot enter a property by force so how can a breeder possibly do it? You'd have to get a court order and even then the owner would have to let you in.

Regarding not having the cat spayed because she isn't going out - that is a common idea but I'm afraid it simply won't work. Cats are not dogs, they will call repeatedly until they are mated. You can delay a call with hormonal treatments - these run the risk of causing pyometra though. A female cat who calls constantly will eventually make herself ill. Far more likely is that she will simply escape.

The bottom line is that there is only one way to stop people breeding from a kitten you do not want them to breed from, and that is early neutering.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mrsjtobe said:


> Thanks everyone for your replys i am not planning to breed from my cat i was just wondering as i am kind off thinking if she is not ill there for not needing an opp, then why bother.Things might change, just thinking. Also how is it possiable for the breeder to remove the cat? she is not neglected,abused or ill treated she is a happy well looked after cat.


It's not about her seeming well now hun. If she goes into call over and over she may well get Pyo, which can be deadly.

Get her spayed for her own good, and if money is a factor in your decision ... I can promise you the treatment for spaying will be far far cheaper than the cost to have her treated if she gets Pyo. You can also guarantee if she does get it, it will be on a month where money is particularly tight.

Not to mention that if your girl manages to escape (I'm presuming you keep her indoors only?) it will be when she is in call. Then you will likely end up with kittens. Not only is this a very irresponsible thing to risk, but if the breeder finds out you will have given them reason to take your girl and her kittens away.


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## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks Liz thats what i was thinking too, she has not started calling yet but i got a few months to think about it still, could you tell me what would happen if i decided to go ahead and get her done and something goes wrong,which can with any GA pet or human, what happens with the breeder do i let her know,tbh i would be really peed off as it would have happened if the breeder had not made me. hope that made sence lol


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> I very much doubt if any breeder could simply go and remove the cat, unless the cat happens to be sitting on a wall outside. Even bailiffs with a court order cannot enter a property by force so how can a breeder possibly do it? You'd have to get a court order and even then the owner would have to let you in.
> 
> Regarding not having the cat spayed because she isn't going out - that is a common idea but I'm afraid it simply won't work. Cats are not dogs, they will call repeatedly until they are mated. You can delay a call with hormonal treatments - these run the risk of causing pyometra though. A female cat who calls constantly will eventually make herself ill. Far more likely is that she will simply escape.
> 
> ...


Have you never had to remove a cat you have bred Liz? Or do you not follow up on the kittens that leave you?

My mentor and a few other breeders I know of have a few stories between them of having to go a take back a cat/kitten because of them breaching the contract.

It may not be legal to do so (as in the contract might not be legally enforceable), but I'm sure a few words about the reasons why they are taking the cat back will be enough for the owner to surrender the animals. The cases I have heard of are usually neglect, which is remedied by either the breeder taking back the cat (and usually the kittens the new owner has 'let' them have) or telling the new owner that a call to the RSPCA could be more difficult for them. It's a no brainer choice mostly.

Rightly so too, else what's the point in having contracts?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mrsjtobe said:


> Thanks Liz thats what i was thinking too, she has not started calling yet but i got a few months to think about it still, could you tell me what would happen if i decided to go ahead and get her done and something goes wrong,which can with any GA pet or human, what happens with the breeder do i let her know,tbh i would be really peed off as it would have happened if the breeder had not made me. hope that made sence lol


How old is she? Did you know some queens are silent callers?

The chances of something going wrong during the procedure are less likely than the chances of her getting Pyo if you don't get her spayed. SO in effect you are putting her at greater risk of death by not getting her spayed than if you do 

Do you have insurance for your girl?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I have removed 2! No court order, I just turn up with my carrier (sometimes kids in tow) have a chat and take my cat home.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, you'd have no comeback against the breeder unless it could be shown that, for example death during spaying resulted from the cat having a heart defect.

The chances of anything going wrong during spaying are really very low. Risk can never be reduced to zero, but I am sure it is far less risky than the birthing process. I once lost a cat during a caesarean (admittedly the vet was later struck off, not for that, but you get the idea that he wasn't great) and I have had three near misses - one was a very nasty post-partum infection, one a belly full of dead kittens requiring an emergency caesarean and the uterus full of pus, and the other and intussuception which could have happened at another time but does seem to be more common after kittening. Each of those events set me back around £800.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> I have removed 2! No court order, I just turn up with my carrier (sometimes kids in tow) have a chat and take my cat home.


But that only works if the owner lets you in and lets you remove the cat. You can't do it by force.

Liz


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## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

She is five months and yes i do have insurance for her, like its already been said bailifs,police and rspca need warrents to come into your home, if people hand back there animals to breeders i supose its there choice but i would be seeking police advice or lawers before i hand any menber off my family over.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Have you never had to remove a cat you have bred Liz? Or do you not follow up on the kittens that leave you?


No I haven't. Of course I follow up. I don't sell kittens with "do not breed" contracts. If someone is going to breed from my cats I would far far rather know about it and support them. I know this is an uncommon view but it is my view, so that's what I do.



> The cases I have heard of are usually neglect, which is remedied by either the breeder taking back the cat (and usually the kittens the new owner has 'let' them have) or telling the new owner that a call to the RSPCA could be more difficult for them. It's a no brainer choice mostly.


I have heard once of someone taking the cat back using the RSPCA as a threat. What I have never quite worked out (feel free to enlighten me) is how the breeder actually finds out the cat is being neglected - most of us don't sell cats within our own street after all. The RSPCA are hardly going to go and remove a cat just because it has had kittens, are they, and what breeder would ever send the RSPCA in, knowing that the BEST case scenario after that would be the RSPCA taking the cat and rehoming it themselves. There is no way on earth I would ever send the RSPCA in if I was concerned about a cat I had sold, not unless there was active cruelty going on of the kind that would be likely to make the papers, so that the RSPCA would actually treat the cat rather than simply destroying it!

Liz


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## princessa rags (Apr 30, 2010)

the gccf kitten agreement says its legally binding...and it also says in the event of these being breached the vendor shall have the right to reposes legally the kitten and to be reimbursed by purchaser the reasonable cost of such repossession and keeping of such kitten for a period of up to 2 months after repossession.such costa in clude veterinary examiniation and fees


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## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

Totally agree with you Liz sorry i feel as if i have started something and it was totally not my intention, just thinking out loud i supose. I think even if the rspce was called they would look at the animal and or kittens if there were any but if the house is clean, animals well looked after i dont see the problem(apart from the original breeder loosing money)


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Anything that is written down with the word 'contract' in it signed by both parties is legally binding in a court. For instance you could write in biro on a piece of scrap paper, it'll still be legally binding.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

princessa rags said:


> the gccf kitten agreement says its legally binding...and it also says in the event of these being breached the vendor shall have the right to reposes legally the kitten and to be reimbursed by purchaser the reasonable cost of such repossession and keeping of such kitten for a period of up to 2 months after repossession.such costa in clude veterinary examiniation and fees


Yes but you've still got to get in the door. There is no contract on earth that will allow you to break into someone else's home, even in order to take back what is legally yours. And i don't see how you could even begin to force anyone to hand something over without a court order. You need a court order to repossess anything else, even if that something has not been paid for (eg, hire purchase default). How on earth could you not need a court order to repossess something that had been paid for in full?

I am not a lawyer, and if anyone knows exactly how such a thing can be done, I'd be very interested to hear it. My guess, though, is that if the kitten owner told you she was going to call the police, then dialled 999 and said you were threatening her, or that you had broken into her property (burglary), it would be you in court and not her!

Liz


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## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

Yep i would be me calling the police too not the breeder, if u came home to find your tv missing u would call the police so i would do the same if someone tried to steal my cat cause thats what it would come down to , thieft.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mrsjtobe said:


> Totally agree with you Liz sorry i feel as if i have started something and it was totally not my intention, just thinking out loud i supose. I think even if the rspce was called they would look at the animal and or kittens if there were any but if the house is clean, animals well looked after i dont see the problem(apart from the original breeder loosing money)


You haven't started anything, you asked a question and got your answer  It's just a discussion at the moment, so don't worry.

However I feel the need to point out that breeders don't view it as money lost (well not the good breeders anyway). It's about BYB who don't care about the welfare of their cats ... breeders want to prevent this from happening, as well as protecting blood lines and what not. Not to mention those sold as pets only, are sold that way for many reasons ... some of those reasons include the kitten not meeting the breed standard. The breeder is usually only breeding to better the breed and the breeds health.

For someone to then ignore legally binding contracts and breed from their cat anyway, it means you are putting 'not up to scratch' genes back into the pool. When it should have been eradicated by having the cat neutered.

I hope that makes sense.

Also, if you love your girl so much, getting her spayed is really the best thing to do. The reasons for which have been stated over and over now. Not only due to the risk of Pyo, but also the associated risks of accidental breeding.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

mrsjtobe said:


> Thanks Liz thats what i was thinking too, she has not started calling yet but i got a few months to think about it still, could you tell me what would happen if i decided to go ahead and get her done and something goes wrong,which can with any GA pet or human, what happens with the breeder do i let her know,tbh i would be really peed off as it would have happened if the breeder had not made me. hope that made sence lol


IF something happened duirng the neuter, it would be the vet's fault -- not the breeders.

The breeder isn't _*making* _you neuter your cat just to protect her precious breeding lines or for any other stupid or selfish reason... there are very vaild health reasons why a cat must be neutered or bred with. You can't just leave a cat unneutered if you are not breeding with her -- not only will she scream you and your neighbours out of house and home, and you;d have every unneutered tom turning up at your door and sbeing very vocal in the middle of the night -- the health implications of not getting a cat neutered would put you into the realms of very irresponsible owner.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes but you've still got to get in the door. There is no contract on earth that will allow you to break into someone else's home, even in order to take back what is legally yours. And i don't see how you could even begin to force anyone to hand something over without a court order. You need a court order to repossess anything else, even if that something has not been paid for (eg, hire purchase default). How on earth could you not need a court order to repossess something that had been paid for in full?
> 
> I am not a lawyer, and if anyone knows exactly how such a thing can be done, I'd be very interested to hear it. My guess, though, is that if the kitten owner told you she was going to call the police, then dialled 999 and said you were threatening her, or that you had broken into her property (burglary), it would be you in court and not her!
> 
> Liz


Liz as a breeder don't you think you're being a little irresponsible yourself now? Please read the first post and then the one below this one that I have quoted. By your word you have encouraged this woman. Not good.

Now as for the legal side of things. You may well be correct, however if it goes to court the breeder will win, and it will be very expensive for the person who bought the cat once it's over. Presumably words to this effect are what is said, and is enough for the person who bought the cat to see sense and hand over the cat.

Mrsjtobe ... if you do the right thing all round and get your girl spayed this is a redundant argument. You will have fulfilled the contract to that extent, and your girl will be at less risk because of it. Win win!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am not a lawyer, and if anyone knows exactly how such a thing can be done, I'd be very interested to hear it. My guess, though, is that if the kitten owner told you she was going to call the police, then dialled 999 and said you were threatening her, or that you had broken into her property (burglary), it would be you in court and not her!
> 
> Liz


Im not going to go into details on a public forum (for obvious reasons, lol). But I have (in the interests of animal welfare) functioned on the wrong side of the law. One time was in Scotland, and it was in the late 80s. And to be perfectly honest, the police knew full well what we were doing, and it was highly illegal, and while they didnt actively help us, they certainly didnt hinder us either. Unofficially and off the record, they backed us 100%. They also didnt rush to help the person whose animal we were procuring. Every time that irresponsible a-hole excuse for a pet owner called the police, funnily enough, each and every time the local police were too busy with something more important to respond to his desperate pleas. (read drinking tea and reading the papers).

I am not saying the police will turn blind eyes to vigilante groups of animal welfare militants on the rampage, but I am saying. The UK police (in my experience) can be a very pragmatic bunch and when the RSPCA cant or wont get involved, and they can see there is a genuine animal welfare isuue, well the police get just as frustrated as us  and I count myself honoured to have had them on my side when I needed them (even if their support was unofficial).


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Tje said:


> Im not going to go into details on a public forum (for obvious reasons, lol). But I have (in the interests of animal welfare) functioned on the wrong side of the law. One time was in Scotland, and it was in the late 80s. And to be perfectly honest, the police knew full well what we were doing, and it was highly illegal, and while they didnt actively help us, they certainly didnt hinder us either. Unofficially and off the record, they backed us 100%. They also didnt rush to help the person whose animal we were procuring. Every time that irresponsible a-hole excuse for a pet owner called the police, funnily enough, each and every time the local police were too busy with something more important to respond to his desperate pleas. (read drinking tea and reading the papers).
> 
> I am not saying the police will turn blind eyes to vigilante groups of animal welfare militants on the rampage, but I am saying. The UK police (in my experience) can be a very pragmatic bunch and when the RSPCA cant or wont get involved, and they can see there is a genuine animal welfare isuue, well the police get just as frustrated as us  and I count myself honoured to have had them on my side when I needed them (even if their support was unofficial).


Yes, it's not unheard of, although I do love the surprises on their faces, I did have to do some detective work on someone who had one of my kittens, they gave me a false address, thankfully he worked in a large company so I was able to track him and his wife down. This is when I like the internet.

He threatened me with police but I threatened them with SSPCA and the fact his wife had been emailing telling me she was getting more and more unwell by the day (due to her cat not liking my locked in a kitchen kitten)!

Cat rehomed to a lovely lady.

I don't like doing it but it's in my nature, I breed the cats, they are all legally mine, people can of course adopt them.

Nice, truthfull people.

A lot of the bigger breeders are now scouring the adverts and buying unregistered kittens, which are being advertised as breeding cats etc.

Cats should be licenced but they won't.

My advice would be to have her spayed or speak with the breeder and pay a little more for a registered breeding girl.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

The enforcement of a contract depends on whether the breeder is willing to proceed with going to court however more and more breeders are and are having a great deal of sucess.

Most breeders make a kitten agreement because they are not being ackward,they make it because they have the welfare of the kitten as there main concern which is why most contracts are transferable to cover the eventuality of it being rehomed

There is a fanatastic sight with information on contracts and agreements, legal implications etc here is an extract for further more detailed info go to www.contractsandagreements.co.uk

Breach of contract basically means that one or more of the terms and conditions laid out in a contract has been broken. Breaching a contract may lead to the contract breaking down completely and can easily lead to legal action and claims for damages in a law court.

Common Breaches of Contract
When any contract is made an agreement is formed between parties to carry out a service and payment for that service. If one of the parties fails to carry out their side of the agreement then the party can be said to be in breach of contract. Breach of contract can also occur if work carried out is defective or if one party makes the other aware that they will not be carrying out the agreed work.

Breaches of contract can also include non payment for a service or not paying on time, failure to deliver services or goods, and being late with services without a reasonable excuse. Terms and conditions are a fundamental part of a legally binding contract and any broken terms can lead to breach of contract.

Types of Breach of Contract
The main types of breach of contract will be minor, material, fundamental, and anticipatory. Minor breaches can be, for example, a builder who substitutes his own type of materials for specified materials. The substituted materials may work just as well as the specified but it can still be seen as a minor breach of contract.

A material breach can be a breach that has serious consequences on the outcome of the contract. A fundamental breach would be one so serious that the contract has to be terminated. An anticipatory breach is one where one of the parties makes it known that they will not be carrying out agreed work, and the consequences can be termination of the contract and damages being sought in court.

Damages for Breach of Contract
Damages can be awarded to an innocent party if a law court upholds that a contract has been breached. Damages will be used to compensate the innocent party for their loss due to the breach. These damages are usually a remuneration that will reflect the loss. For example, if an employer dismissed an employee unfairly then the employee could claim damages for loss of earnings under breach of contract. Damages can be awarded even if there has been no actual loss, the innocent party will then usually be awarded nominal damages.

Proof of Breach
If a dispute does occur due to breach of contract then the judge will need to decide that a legally binding contract does exist and that it has been breached. In some cases the contract may only be a verbal contract and there may be no actual written evidence that a contract was formed. In such cases a judge will need to go over the terms and conditions of the contract and clarify what actually took place in practice.

Entitlement to damages may be awarded if the innocent party can prove that a breach of contract took place. The innocent party must prove that there was a loss due to the breach and that the nature of the loss would lead to compensation. Remoteness of loss will also be taken into consideration by the courts and may include future loss that could reasonably occur from the contract being broken.

Other Damages due to Breach of Contract
Other losses can include loss of profits, the cost of rectifying the breach and wasted expenditure. If disputes do end up in the law courts then the amount awarded may come down to how much documented proof the claimant has regarding financial loss. This can include actual records and document proof of financial loss due to the breach. However, if there is little proof, damages can still be awarded, this will be down to the judge ascertaining all of the facts of the case and not relying solely on documented proof.

Breaching a contract can be a serious offence and is a very common reason for lawsuits. Anyone considering court action due to breach of contract should seek expert legal advice before proceeding. Court disputes are a lengthy and costly procedure and the legal costs should be weighed up against the likely damages awarded.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Psst Gary ... you forgot to add that you copy and pasted all that info from the website


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> There is a fanatastic sight with information on contracts and agreements, legal implications etc here is an extract for further more detailed info go to Understanding Contracts and Agreements at Contracts And Agreements (UK)
> 
> .


Ha ha not sure what happened their was trying to reply and deleted I am such a computer retard ha ha

Thats why I put its an extract Aurelia learned my leason the last time Hun ha ha


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I state the agreed remedy for breach in my contracts and yes, I would have no hesitation in following through with legal action. Not only do I ensure I keep the right to repossess the cat but there is also a substantial financial penalty for breeding from one of my kittens without my written permission. I'd bet the cat would have disappeared off the face of the earth by the time I got judgement but at least the dishonest buyer would be out of pocket to the tune of around £3000 or have a problem getting any sort of credit with a CCJ.


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## mrsjtobe (Sep 2, 2010)

i dont understand what you mean when u say u have the right to reposes the cat surley if you sell something and a buyer has a reciet u no longer own it. The new owner is paying insurance for an animal thats theres they are not paying for someone elses animal.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

mrsjtobe said:


> i dont understand what you mean when u say u have the right to reposes the cat surley if you sell something and a buyer has a reciet u no longer own it. The new owner is paying insurance for an animal thats theres they are not paying for someone elses animal.


No, if you are buying a kitten with a contract and you breach the contract you can reposess the kitten, if that is in your contract.

Read TellingTails post & Sootisox one again - she is breeder & a lawyer.

IMO My kittens are always my kittens, if someone dies, the kitten comes back to me, if the owner is allergic the kitten comes back to me, if the owner breaks with their partner and noone wants the kitten, the kitten comes back to me, or they check with me before they re-home the kitten.

If you breach the contract, the kitten comes back to me.

Simples!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

mrsjtobe said:


> i dont understand what you mean when u say u have the right to reposes the cat surley if you sell something and a buyer has a reciet u no longer own it. The new owner is paying insurance for an animal thats theres they are not paying for someone elses animal.


the shelter I voulnteer for does not sell cats or kittens... they are rehomed to adoptive families who have a life-time lease on them, if you like... but they remain the "property" of the shelter. I see no reason why any breeder can't use a similar contract.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

mrsjtobe said:


> i dont understand what you mean when u say u have the right to reposes the cat surley if you sell something and a buyer has a reciet u no longer own it. The new owner is paying insurance for an animal thats theres they are not paying for someone elses animal.


Not if it states it in the contract, and you have signed and agreed the terms and conditions,

My contracts have a simalar clause.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Liz as a breeder don't you think you're being a little irresponsible yourself now? Please read the first post and then the one below this one that I have quoted. By your word you have encouraged this woman. Not good.


I have told her 1. that keeping an entire female unbred is not an option and 2. that if she has signed a contract she should stick with it. That is not encouraging her to breed. If she wants to breed, she needs to contact the breeder and try to work things out. She has in fact said that she doesn't want to breed, she just doesn't realise that you can't keep an entire female unbred. Many people don't realise this. I am sure we are all making it clear.



> Now as for the legal side of things. You may well be correct, however if it goes to court the breeder will win, and it will be very expensive for the person who bought the cat once it's over. Presumably words to this effect are what is said, and is enough for the person who bought the cat to see sense and hand over the cat.


Maybe. How true it is, I don't know. It seems to me it would be a small claims court issue with court fees added, but in a small claims court these are not huge. I still don't know how, even with a court order, you could actually enforce repossession of the cat. If you send in the bailiffs because someone owes you money and you have won a County Court judgement against them, the bailiffs are highly likely to come back and claim that everything in the house belongs to someone else - I know this from experience (twice!) - that's when a judgment is for money. In the case of repossessing goods, if the goods are not there, or the owner refuses to let the bailiffs in, I don't think there's a lot they can do. It would be interesting to check out hire purchase rules on one of the many debt sites, that will be the nearest you'll get to the situation under discussion, I think.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> If you breach the contract, the kitten comes back to me.


How do you enforce that?

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Well so far I have just taken them and the owners have agreed it is best for them, perhaps I have just been lucky.

If I had to enforce it I would.

I would like to point out the Liz doesn't get involved in dipsutes, she points out the facts and has been breeding for many more years than me and no doubt many of us, (yes all the lurkers too) so she knows her stuff, although it may come across as a little blunt, it's always straight to the point and usually correct.

Sometimes things come across wrong in typing on the internet.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lizward said:


> It would be interesting to check out hire purchase rules on one of the many debt sites, that will be the nearest you'll get to the situation under discussion, I think.
> 
> Liz


There is a distinct difference between Hire purchase and a sale agreement.I have cut and pasted this definition direct from the hmrc website.

CG12860 - Hire purchase agreements

You may be familiar with hire purchase agreements which are common in every day commercial life.

The agreement, or series of agreements, will normally include:

•an agreement which allows the eventual purchaser of the asset to use it for a specified period (called the hire period)
•an agreement that the purchaser pays an initial sum at the beginning of the hire period (called the deposit)
•an agreement that the purchaser pays regular sums during the hire period (called the hire charge) and
•an agreement that the purchaser takes ownership of the asset at the end of the hire period.
CG12880+ tell you about cases where you have a series of agreements.

It is the existence of the final agreement which CG12860 tells you about which distinguishes a Hire Purchase agreement from a Sale agreement. It produces a different legal result since under a Hire Purchase agreement, legal ownership is retained by the vendor until the end of the hire period. In the case of a Sale agreement, legal ownership will pass when the contract becomes final.

This end statement legal ownership will pass when the contract becomes final, if you state in your kitten contract it does not become final until the kitten is neutered, you still retain legal ownership until the purchaser completes the contract,on neutering and providing proof of neutering,they then and only then become the legal owner of the kitten.

Most Kittens contracts are legally binding,and enforcement comes down to the individual breeder.
The majority of breeders are up front and honest from the start with regards to their contracts, you as potential purchaser have the right to say you do not agree with the terms and conditions applied at the time of purchase.

The majority of owners agree sign and meet the conditions applied by the breeder, however their are those who try to get out of the conditions set, and it 9 times out of 10 is the neutering aspect.

There are various clauses in a kitten contract, put there to protect the kittens welfare, however the one most people try to get out of is the neutering,why because its of a benefit to them as individuals.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> I would like to point out the Liz doesn't get involved in dipsutes, she points out the facts and has been breeding for many more years than me and no doubt many of us, (yes all the lurkers too) so she knows her stuff, although it may come across as a little blunt, it's always straight to the point and usually correct.


Thank you 

I am quite willing to be convinced on this point, by the way, I just can't see how it would work, that's all. With a Hire Purchase agreement the seller can repossess (if you default on the payment) if you have paid less than a third of the cost. If you've paid more than a third they have to go to court, but with a kitten you've paid the full amount. You'd have to claim that the buyer never actually had title, that the cat was on hire or something like that, but even if you manage to prove that, you still have to get the cat back. If the buyer claims that the cat has been run over, how are you going to prove otherwise - unless the cat is a show cat who then appears at a cat show of course? If the buyer claims the cat has been run over, you are not going to be able to claim any financial loss unless you claim that the actual value of the cat is some silly amount and the actual price paid by the buyer was in fact the hire fee, but I somehow can't see that holding up in court.

It would be very interesting to know of anyone who has actually taken this through an English court, and what happened. It is no doubt true that the majority of buyers would back down rather than go to court, but if they didn't, I'm not sure I'd give much for your chances.

I have absolutely no axe to grind on this, I have never bought a cat with a written contract, and whenever I have sold a kitten with a contract, it has been about what I will and will not be responsible for if anything goes wrong, not about breeding restrictions. Bottom line, if I was really desperate to avoid anyone breeding from a cat of mine, the cat would not be leaving my premises unneutered.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> This end statement legal ownership will pass when the contract becomes final, if you state in your kitten contract it does not become final until the kitten is neutered, you still retain legal ownership until the purchaser completes the contract,on neutering and providing proof of neutering,they then and only then become the legal owner of the kitten.
> 
> Most Kittens contracts are legally binding,and enforcement comes down to the individual breeder.


Ok, thank you for that. Suppose then that you took the new owner to court and you won, and the new owner refused to allow you into her home to collect the cat, what would your remedy be then?

Liz


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

The kitten contract just makes going to court easier and a much less drawn out affair, the wording of the contract is designed,so that legal ownership does not pass to the purchaser until after the terms of the contract have been met.

If the breeder then feels it is necessary to go to court over the break down in the contract it makes it easier for the judge to make a decision, the court would then grant you a court order to gain posession of the kitten.

How you then implement the possesion is then down to yourself whether it be by mutual agreement with the purchaser or by enforcement via police or private baliff company.

The award for damages and costs etc for rehoming,neutering etc are at the discretion of the court.

If the purchaser then said for example, the kitten had ran away etc it would be then up to the courts to decide whether that would constitute a break down in the courts original order and to whether you would have to pay damages with effects to the kittens value.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> If the breeder then feels it is necessary to go to court over the break down in the contract it makes it easier for the judge to make a decision, the court would then grant you a court order to gain posession of the kitten.
> 
> How you then implement the possesion is then down to yourself whether it be by mutual agreement with the purchaser or by enforcement via police or private baliff company.
> 
> ...


I can't imagine the police getting involved, can you? So you send round a private bailiff company and the owner refuses to let them in, she has the right to do that doesn't she, and then they go back to the breeder and say they were unable to obtain the kitten and their fees are £200 or whatever they might be now (£80 last time I tried but that was about 18 years ago), so then what? Back to court to try to get that money, which the owner refuses to pay, so you send the bailiffs in again?

What happens at the end of the day? Is there any way you can legally break into the house and sieze the kitten, or not? I am rather assuming not!

Regarding damages, surely to get financial damages you would have to prove financial loss, wouldn't you? The only way you are going to do that, as far as I can see, is to claim for the difference in price between an active and non-active register kitten.

Am I missing something?

Liz


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

No your not missing the point Liz.

In an earlier post I did suggest, that she contact the breeder and pay the difference from Pet price to breeding price, most breeders will agree to these conditions,as it is an easier alternative than going to court.And if somone is up front and honest most breeders will even give them advice and guidance.

The only reason a breeder under these terms would stick to their guns and principles, is if they were concerned of a genetic reason for the kitten not to breed.

Kitten contracts are not really about control or enforced terms they are really there to define the terms in which the kitten should be looked after.The non breeding clause or the neutering clause is primarily for the kittens welfare 9 out of 10 purchasers have no concern with breeding.
The clause is there mearly so they get the kitten neutered,for health reasons, from accidental pregnancy to Pyo.
By having such a clause you are as a responsible breeder ensuring the welfare of the kitten.

Now I am not saying someone is not a responsible breeder because they do not have a clause like this, I am merely saying that it is a responsible clause meant more about kitten welfare, than it is about control and financial gain.

It is a hard rule to enforce,and under extreme circumstances it is possible to play the system and make life difficult. However if someone was that intent on bending the system and breeding from a Cat that had been deemed not suitable for breeding and who,s off spring could not be registered.

What does that say about the individual, are they then dishonest, would they lie to a potential owner,how serious are they on breeding if they could not purchase a viable queen.

The breeding of cats has always and will always have a diverse level of quality of breeding.We will always have Back yard breeders, kittens farms,people who breed from ilegitimate cats,and those who take breeding serious,whos concern for kitten welfare is of paramount concern.

I know which one I would purchase off,:thumbup:

But we could pick apart kitten contracts all night, from breeding clauses to rehoming clauses, but the fact remains you will always get someone who tries to get out of a clause for their own benefit.

I am not saying kitten contracts are 100% proof, so vetting potential owners also goes along way to getting responsible owners,with morals to abide by such an agreement.

So I will sign out and leave you with this thought, if a kitten breeding clause is hard to enforce,why do some breeders have an indoor only policy for their kittens, How do they enforce this, do they phone nightly and ask the cat if its been out.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> No your not missing the point Liz.
> 
> In an earlier post I did suggest, that she contact the breeder and pay the difference from Pet price to breeding price, most breeders will agree to these conditions,as it is an easier alternative than going to court.And if somone is up front and honest most breeders will even give them advice and guidance.


I would hope so, and it may well be so in your breed and in others. There are breeds, unfortunately, where getting an active register female, let alone a male, is actually very difficult. All that happens if you make things too dififcult is, of course, that you enoucrage people to breed from non-active cats.



> The only reason a breeder under these terms would stick to their guns and principles, is if they were concerned of a genetic reason for the kitten not to breed.


Or because the stud owner had put a "no kittens to be on active register" clause in the contract, or because the breeder did not want competition.



> What does that say about the individual, are they then dishonest, would they lie to a potential owner,how serious are they on breeding if they could not purchase a viable queen.


I do agree with you on this. I have said to several people on these forums that I don't understand why, if they want to breed, they don't just do it properly. I think one of the major factors is that people do not regard "just one litter" as breeding. They think that if they say they want a cat for breeding, we will assume that they are intending to have several queens and a stud and outdoor pens and all the rest of it, when in fact all they want is a litter or two because they like the cat. We know that even one litter constitutes breeding, but I don't think your average kitten buyer sees it like that.

What I do with my buyers (of female kittens) is to ask them up front if they have any thoughts at all of breeding. They usually say no, occasionally someone will say they might like to have just one litter. If the buyer says she would like just one litter, I will say one of the following:

1. The kitten you are interested in is on the non-active register and I consider her to be unsuited to breeding because (I only use this with genuine health reasons which, so far, have only been matters of small size or heart murmurs) and if there is any question of you ever wanting to breed, would you please consider taking this one instead. I would not want you to find yourself stuck with a bill for hundreds of pounds for a caesarean, or with a dead cat and a litter of kittens to hand rear. (Actually if there is a real health reason why a cat should not be bred, I will say that before the person ever sees the kittens, there is no point in someone falling in love with a kitten that is not suitable for the purpose for which they want her).

2. (far more usual for me) OK, if you do decide you want to have a litter I will be very happy to support you, please make sure you get in touch, I will be able to point you to a suitable stud, the cat will need to be transferred to the active register and you'll need advice. And whatever you do, don't let her out or you will have a litter of pretty moggies!



> The breeding of cats has always and will always have a diverse level of quality of breeding.We will always have Back yard breeders, kittens farms,people who breed from ilegitimate cats,and those who take breeding serious,whos concern for kitten welfare is of paramount concern.
> 
> I know which one I would purchase off,:thumbup:


O yes indeed. The difficulty is that the pet buying general public only see the headline price.



> So I will sign out and leave you with this thought, if a kitten breeding clause is hard to enforce,why do some breeders have an indoor only policy for their kittens, How do they enforce this, do they phone nightly and ask the cat if its been out.


I imagine that is another contract that is impossible to enforce. All it tells the new owner is that the breeder would be unhappy if she knew the cat was going out, and if you do let the cat out and it gets stolen or run over, you'd better not tell the breeder. Personally, I'd rather know.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

you know... I have a cure for this whole discussion.... early neutering!

Regardless, though its been interesting reading, and would apply to any clause in a cats contract not just neutering.


However, to the OP please please do some serious research into the risks of leaving an entire girl unspeyed.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Regarding damages, surely to get financial damages you would have to prove financial loss, wouldn't you?


I don't believe you would if it's written into a contract agreed by both parties. However, I played safe and worked out my financial penalty from expenses which would turn out to have been completely wasted if someone bred from a kitten I'd pointedly sold as non-active. It should be more but I kept it to those things which are quantifiable and can be proved just in case I ever do have to put it in front of a judge. The only case of this kind I've ever been involved in resulted in the judge agreeing with the breeder but no award. In a nutshell, it's legitimate to have a no breeding clause but it does then beg the question 'or what?'. Kittens can't be unborn.

I totally agree with the point that making it difficult for people to become breeders only encourages some to take the backyard route. I do everything I can to help new breeders. I don't charge more for a breeding girl which is why I'd be very angry and come down so hard on anyone who wasn't honest with me.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lizward said:


> I would hope so, and it may well be so in your breed and in others. There are breeds, unfortunately, where getting an active register female, let alone a male, is actually very difficult. All that happens if you make things too dififcult is, of course, that you enoucrage people to breed from non-active cats.
> 
> Or because the stud owner had put a "no kittens to be on active register" clause in the contract, or because the breeder did not want competition.
> Liz


I agree there is some breeders out there that, do make it very hard to aquire an active reg cat for breeding, and this is sometimes because they are trying to prevent competition.

And when you do find an active breeding cat, not only do they vastly over charge for it ,but they also have the cheek to have conditions aplied in some circumstances.

We take a slightly different view with our cats, yes we have a no breeding policy for all our Pet kittens, however if someone is honest at the time of purchasing that they might one day breed, we add a small section, that if they do decide to breed they can pay the difference and we will allow them, obviously it does depend on the kitten they purchase is deemed to be of breed quality.

We do not over charge for breeding queens or studs, the increased charge for a breeding queen or stud, is not really for the breeding rights. We charge an increased charge for our services, We promise that if for any reason the female was infertile,We gaurantee we will exchange for a suitable queen, we also promise gauranteed access to a proven Male stud, so for first time breeders they do not have to source a stud.
They are given a 24 hour helpline number,so they have constant support, throughout the breeding,birth process and kitten development.
They also get other services like custom designed Pedigree blanks, in there chosen name i.e liz's lovely babies, they get access to a discounted rate of a mobile microchipping service, for the whole litter.

We do not see cat breeding as an exclusive business, and would rather support and guide people in responsible breeding, when we first started out six years ago, we were amazed at how closely guarded some breeders were with regards to selling breeding cats,some breeders would say things like, you live to close to me or we do not sell to first time breeders,or would say you cant enter certain shows.

They never asked your background,for all they know you could of been a world class Vet specialising in Feline care.They did not care to ask all they cared about was there potential loss of earnings from direct competition.

We decided we would'nt be like that.

You are right about people purchasing with regards to seeing the bottom line Liz, and that sometimes breeders are forcing peoples hands with regards to breeding from non-active cats,due to making it difficult to obtain an active female not to mention sometimes a huge financial drain.

I know you will get extremist's saying if you cant afford the purchase price,how can you afford the up keep etc during the breeding process, but that still does not distract from the reality that some of these breeding cats are very excessively priced.And the price does not always reflect the quality.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Very well said!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> you know... I have a cure for this whole discussion.... early neutering!


Very true!

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I agree there is some breeders out there that, do make it very hard to aquire an active reg cat for breeding, and this is sometimes because they are trying to prevent competition.
> 
> And when you do find an active breeding cat, not only do they vastly over charge for it ,but they also have the cheek to have conditions aplied in some circumstances.
> 
> ...


Could not agree more. £750-850 for a breeding girl - Do I get gold kittens from her ?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> you know... I have a cure for this whole discussion.... early neutering!


Definately the way to go, the only way to go I say. Perhaps some breeders do not like paying the extra £85 though? Who knows?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Milly22 said:


> Definately the way to go, the only way to go I say. Perhaps some breeders do not like paying the extra £85 though? Who knows?


ooh i'm not getting into this one again.

I do understand why some breeders feel that there is a risk with neutering around the time of vaccination. I also feel that the risks are too great if you do not use a vet who is experienced and trained in the new techniques.

However I am (until i see some real evidence to make me think differently) a wholehearted supporter of early neutering.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> Definately the way to go, the only way to go I say. Perhaps some breeders do not like paying the extra £85 though? Who knows?


I won't early neuter my kittens - having had a cat of my breed which I HAD to early neuter as his testicle was abnormal - it has made a huge difference to his development and _in relation to this breed_ I would not out of choice early neuter. I'm sure someone will jump in and say there's no proof early neutering affects their development but in my experience and that of others with this breed it can do ...

That said I don't charge a fortune for cats on active register and I am willing to sell on active and happy to help anyone if I can. And I am aware that by not early neutering there is a possibility someone will manage to 'con' me. I am happy though that the buyers of all of my first litter can be trusted and hope my instincts are correct.

I did get any number of dodgy enquiries about the last girl to sell and it was quite clear some were obviously after a queen but were not going to be upfront about it?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Definately the way to go, the only way to go I say. Perhaps some breeders do not like paying the extra £85 though? Who knows?


I'd delight in paying anything if there was a vet within the county who would early neuter - believe me I've asked. The cost would simply be recouped from the buyers so it's hardly an issue. What do you consider would be a reasonable distance to transport kittens for such a procedure?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

havoc said:


> I'd delight in paying anything if there was a vet within the county who would early neuter - believe me I've asked. The cost would simply be recouped from the buyers so it's hardly an issue. What do you consider would be a reasonable distance to transport kittens for such a procedure?


personally i wouldnt want more than a 10-20minute drive to a vets. Remember though its not just about finding a vet willing to do it, its about finding a vet trained in the new techniques, with access to the correct anaesthetics and experience with using them too!


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> Could not agree more. £750-850 for a breeding girl - Do I get gold kittens from her ?


£750-£850 that is a bargain compared with what a breeder emailed me yesterday.

I like to approach breeders as a potential first time buyer, to see how they respond etc to mainly improve our service.

I will not mention names,but I recieved an email back from this breeder,and they wanted £1650 for a Bengal female on active register, now this was not your top of the range all singing all dancing pedigree with a huge array of grand champions.This was simply a good example of the breed.

He asked where I was located,they were down south,He said seeing I was so faraway he would definately allow it to go to me on active register.

And this is not the first breeder to quote in excess of £1200.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Don't get me wrong I charge more as said in previous post,but that is predominantly for the service we provide with the kitten not because you want to breed,or we are scared of competition.

Far from it I love healthy competition, it makes us want to be better than the next breeder.:thumbup:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> personally i wouldnt want more than a 10-20minute drive to a vets. Remember though its not just about finding a vet willing to do it, its about finding a vet trained in the new techniques, with access to the correct anaesthetics and experience with using them too!


I couldn't agree more which is why I questioned the poster who's tone implied this was a option available to everyone, on their doorstep and implying it was simply an issue of cost. I would early neuter if I could and I wholeheartedly support those who wouldn't for whatever reason. I do know that the cost is absoloutely irrelevant in all cases as it wouldn't ultimately be borne by the breeder anyway.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> Definately the way to go, the only way to go I say. Perhaps some breeders do not like paying the extra £85 though? Who knows?


Oh on saying that my breed sell for £375 - I charge £450 so I add the neutering on to the price basically.



havoc said:


> I'd delight in paying anything if there was a vet within the county who would early neuter - believe me I've asked. The cost would simply be recouped from the buyers so it's hardly an issue. What do you consider would be a reasonable distance to transport kittens for such a procedure?


Yes this is difficult, I find if you phone up rescue centres they usually can give advice as to which vet they use, thankfully mine works with SSPCA so has experience.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

havoc said:


> I couldn't agree more which is why I questioned the poster who's tone implied this was a option available to everyone, on their doorstep and implying it was simply an issue of cost. I would early neuter if I could and I wholeheartedly support those who wouldn't for whatever reason. I do know that the cost is absoloutely irrelevant in all cases as it wouldn't ultimately be borne by the breeder anyway.


If I don't neuter, I become known as a "bad breeder" in my world, which is sad as I recently had a 65 year old lady taking a cat and I knew she wasn't going to use him for anything but I have to get mine neutered or as I say, I will be known as a bad breeder, which is a little bit .......... but there you go, that's the cat breeding world and it's delights!

Hence why this is my last year, I am determined to enjoy it and (them all - kittens) to their full!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You'd be a bad breeder if you lived in my area then because you wouldn't have the choice.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I find if you phone up rescue centres they usually can give advice as to which vet they use


I have a flagship RSPCA centre a few miles away and they don't early neuter because there isn't a vet in the area who will. I do know in other areas there are vets who will do so for shelters but not for private individuals. I suspect this is because a shelter is less likely to follow it up if something goes wrong.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

havoc said:


> You'd be a bad breeder if you lived in my area then because you wouldn't have the choice.


No, these people do not believe that there is no choice. They believe you should find that vet and do not believe there are no vets out there. 

Then I wonder why I will not sell any bloomin kittens......I detest putting the price up on kittens but in August alone I have spent over £1000 (on cats)!

I need advice on bulk buying or something....


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

havoc said:


> I have a flagship RSPCA centre a few miles away and they don't early neuter because there isn't a vet in the area who will. I do know in other areas there are vets who will do so for shelters but not for private individuals. I suspect this is because a shelter is less likely to follow it up if something goes wrong.


I hope my "friends" are reading this as I found it took me 18 months to find one even willing to discuss it.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> If I don't neuter, I become known as a "bad breeder" in my world, which is sad as I recently had a 65 year old lady taking a cat and I knew she wasn't going to use him for anything but I have to get mine neutered or as I say, I will be known as a bad breeder, which is a little bit .......... but there you go, that's the cat breeding world and it's delights!
> 
> Hence why this is my last year, I am determined to enjoy it and (them all - kittens) to their full!


This is where I think the whole question of supply and demand comes in to it. Right now it sounds like the breeders within your breed are dictating early neuter or you get tarred with the bad breeder label. I find that quite insane. And can understand why youre thinking of throwing the towel in, I think I would too in your shoes.

Thats why I maintain that I wouldnt buy from a breeder who practiced early neuter, and if all buyers followed that same principle, then breeders would be left with litters of unsold kittens and they would have to change their policy.

Its not just breeders that can set trends/dictate policy buyers can too. Just as breeders have the obligation to vet buyers, I feel buyers should do the same to breeders and look elsewhere when they dont agree with a particular breeders way of doing things. Whether thats early neuter for questionable reasons, or whatever reason a buyer should only buy a kitten from a breeder they have 100% trust in.

And just for the record I am against neuter at or before 12 weeks of age I have no experience with older early neuter (if that makes any sense, lol) so I cant say I am against it, I am open-minded on it. All my reasons for being against early neuter are based on the interests of the kittens. I have no problem with the price of the neuter being added on to the price of the kitten. Say for instance I bought a kitten today, and paid £80 above the going rate for that type of kitten and I got some kind of this voucher entitles you to a free neuter in the 6 months after you take ownership of the kitten  I would be perfectly happy with that.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> I have a flagship RSPCA centre a few miles away and they don't early neuter because there isn't a vet in the area who will. I do know in other areas there are vets who will do so for shelters but not for private individuals. I suspect this is because a shelter is less likely to follow it up if something goes wrong.


I know one vet (US trained) and he has wide experience in the US doing early neuter, he will still do it, but only in rescue circles... not for private individuals. I don't think it's the risk of private individuals being more likely to follow-up when soemthing goes wrong (he assures both procedures are safe)... I just think, like me, he sees it as necessary evil type of things in rescue circles... moggy cat overpopulation *is* a massive problem, whereas in private individuals it's a far lesser to non-existant problem.

(sorry, I don't know how to explain what I mean, yes I know my breeder friend would be devasted -- and so would I -- if her beautful blue BSH mated with the neighbours ginger moggy after it was rehomed to supposedly responsible new owners ... but that's not really a animal-welfare issue if you see what I mean -- so I think a lot of vets see that type of thing as an issue that breeders have to address and they don't see it as a reason to early neuter pedigree kittens).

I have to agree with them. It does seem to me to be a sledge-hammer to crack a nut type of solution.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I do sort of understand the 'sledgehammer' argument but my main reason for doing it isn't because I don't trust my buyers. Although I have a strict contract I haven't had a problem yet with any of them. By 'early' I mean at around 14 weeks and my (admittedly second-hand) experience leads me to believe they suffer less stress and recover far more quickly in their birth home with the company of their litter mates.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> £750-£850 that is a bargain compared with what a breeder emailed me yesterday.
> 
> I like to approach breeders as a potential first time buyer, to see how they respond etc to mainly improve our service.
> 
> ...


To be honest I'm astounded that Bengals are still that popular. Some of us have to settle for £300 if we're lucky 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> I detest putting the price up on kittens but in August alone I have spent over £1000 (on cats)!


Ouch! I reckon my lot are costing me about £7 a day to feed. Haven't dared tell my husband! 

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> Ouch! I reckon my lot are costing me about £7 a day to feed. Haven't dared tell my husband!
> 
> Liz


I think people in my family forget about the 5 cats and then when it's kitten feeding time.  I feed them barf and kitten food which helps, the barf I mean, it seems to last forever.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lizward said:


> To be honest I'm astounded that Bengals are still that popular. Some of us have to settle for £300 if we're lucky
> 
> Liz


Really I have a waiting list of 6 months for Bengals and the minimum Pet price I charge is £450, I guess it depends on your area, out of the three cats I breed bengals get the most enquiries.

When it comes to bengals,The litters I can produce are not enough to meet the demand of my waiting list.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> When it comes to bengals,The litters I can produce are not enough to meet the demand of my waiting list.


That could say more about you and your reputation than the breed. I'm in the same position with a completely different breed while other breeders are complaining that they can't find homes for kittens. I don't like keeping waiting lists and try whenever possible to refer enquiries to other breeders if I don't have kittens available but buyers are often happy to wait.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Whilst I am not a breeder i suddenly feel compelled to clarify my position on early neutering.

I would prefer all rescue kittens to be neutered asap. In many TNR (trap neuter release) programmes all kittens are neutered if they are over 7 weeks. I personally wouldnt neuter a 7 week old out of "choice", although i dont know why!!! The evidence suggests its no riskier than when neutering a 11 week old or even a 12mo! I prefer neutering between the ages of 11-15 weeks, the main reason being about the kittens stress and recovery. Every study has shown that kittens are happier, quicker recovering, and suffer less post op complications when neutered as part of a litter. 

I dont think any breeder can ever say that one of their cats will never escape and get caught in their new pet home. The only sure fire way of stopping that is neutering before they leave, however I dont think its necessarily a good enough reason to EN on its own. Its an additional benefit, but not a stand alone reason. 

My comment about this thread was tongue in cheek, I certainly do not think that just to avoid an argument about breeder contracts is a good enough reason to neuter any pet, regardless of age.

Sorry, just felt i had to clarify!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> I do sort of understand the 'sledgehammer' argument but my main reason for doing it isn't because I don't trust my buyers. Although I have a strict contract I haven't had a problem yet with any of them. By 'early' I mean at around 14 weeks and my (admittedly second-hand) experience leads me to believe they suffer less stress and recover far more quickly in their birth home with the company of their litter mates.


yeah I know, we touched on this the last time we discussed early neuter, and like I said them, while I might not be PRO 14 week old neuter, I must totally admit it's a whole different kettle of fish than neutering a 9 week old kitten -- and although I haven't actually expereinced it, I am not against the idea. Neutering 9 week olds I just don't agree with, and I don't think I ever will. Those first twelve weeks are holly for me and unless early neuter is used as something to address a drastic animal welfare problem, then I just don't agree with it.

Although I do have to clarify that statement too... like BBM said... if I have a litter of 9 wk old feral kittens, yes I would rather the kittens were TNRed at 9 weeks than not at all. Drastic problem = drastic solution.

But the main point I was making in my last post really was just (shock horror ) in defence of vets. Last time around someone on this forum stated vets don't early neueter because they are just afraid of change and new surgical techniques. I don't think that's true (well certainly not for all, though it may hold true for a few). This is one area (lol, one of the few) where I actually find myself agreeing with vets.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

havoc said:


> That could say more about you and your reputation than the breed. I'm in the same position with a completely different breed while other breeders are complaining that they can't find homes for kittens. I don't like keeping waiting lists and try whenever possible to refer enquiries to other breeders if I don't have kittens available but buyers are often happy to wait.


I dont like keeping waiting lists, but I have in the past, referred people to other breeders,and it has come back to bite me,so to speak.

And even though I tell perspective buyers I have none available they prefer to wait,mainly due to they have been recommended by a previous owner.

So yes reputation is a valid point,in terms of sales vs breed.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Just to finish this off, I neueter mine at 13 weeks and they are fine, and although I would be known as a "bad breeder" otherwise it also gives me peace of mind knowing that my pet kittens will not be bred from. My first early neueter was at 13 weeks and he has his op in the morning and rushed to his bowl of food as soon as he was back from the Vet. 

He is now 16/17 weeks and the size of a 6 months old kitten! Although even the vet commented on how large my "kittens" were!  I don't tell him about the Barf.

I have no contract on any of my breeding cats, however, this has caused me more problems than having a contract, I have "verbal instructions"!


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## Snowy's_Mummy (Oct 11, 2010)

Yikes  

This thread is going to give me nightmares... I can't think of anything worse than someone taking my baby away.

I don't really understand the legality of ownership of animals and I'm feeling glad now that the breeder my cat came from does not use contracts.


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