# Sticky  The Puppy Buyers responsibilities?



## swarthy

We see many posts about breeders and their responsibilities, but a few posts of late have made me think more about the puppy buyers responsibilities.

If someone wants to buy a pedigree pup - PLEASE do your research - the internet offers a wealth of information these days on essential and recommended tests.

It is - I understand - very difficult to walk away from a litter - so call ahead and ensure that as an absolute minimum, the recommended health tests have been done, if they haven't don't go.

Stories such as "oh dad has been hipscored" and "mum is healthy so we didn't bother" can hide much more sinister facts, like - we took mum for hipscoring, but the plates were horrendous so we didn't submit them and decided to play the role of the 'naive breeder' instead.

BEWARE of any breeder selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices.

BEWARE of any breeder adding a premium for KC regstration - it costs just *TWELVE pounds *to register a pup, and is probably the cheapest element of the whole breeding process.

=============================

If you get the information you require when you phone and then go and visit the litter - please ensure you

* *see proof of all health tests discussed* (part of your research to know what should be done beforehand)

* ask the breeder lots of questions - a good breeder will be happy to answer any queries you have

* expect to be asked just as many questions as you have asked yourself. The breeder should be just as concerned that you are the right home for their pup as you are that they are a good breeder!

=============================

If you want a cross breed or you are truly not concerned about the background of the pup - then your first port of call should be rescue. I appreciate that rescues aren't for everyone, after two years of trawling the rescues for a dog, we realised that my daughter's fear of grown dogs wasn't going to go away any time soon, (now she isn't afraid of any dog - good job when I have 6 of them )

========================

All too often I hear people say, someone has to give these pups a home - and yes, I understand it isn't their fault they've been put on this earth, but for every breeder who had to give their pups away to rescue because they cannot find homes, will be one more breeder who will think twice before they do it again - and then these pups can be found homes responsibly.

I understand this will put more pressure on rescues initially, but long term, it just MIGHT help reduce the pressure.

A large percentage of people who buy deliberate cross-breeds and dogs from un health tested parents, give them away at the first sign of trouble - because such breeders are unlikely to have the courage of their convictions to accept that an owner is unsuitable for one of their pups - all they want to do is sell them 

=====================

We hear a lot of talk about stopping Back yard Breeders and Puppy Farmers - but people don't seem to understand that the only person who can do something about it is *YOU* the puppy buying public -by doing your research and having the courage to say no.

A breeder that health tests doesn't make them good - if you are unhappy with ANY element of the litter or their environment - WALK AWAY.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Completely agree, there's no excuse for ignorance or cutting corners when it comes to buying a dog or pup, if you can't afford a responsibly bred pup, save up. While anyone is willing to buy a pup from someone who cuts corners, from those who just don't bother to health test, to the other end of the stick, puppy farmers who keep their animals in awful conditions, the rescue problem will just get worse. For me, the responsibility for good healthy animals in good homes lies firmly at the doors of both breeder and buyer.


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## Guest

Great thread, with all the info available now the gp should educate themselves and buy only from a responsible breeder who kc registers the pups and does all available health tests for the breed and only from someone who is trying to improve on the dogs they have and dosent breed often.

its the only way to stamp out poor breeding practices.


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## rocco33

Great post Swarthy and I totally agree. Sorry if it seems harsh, but puppy buyers are just as responsible and as much as fault as these byb and puppy farms.


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## swarthy

rocco33 said:


> Great post Swarthy and I totally agree. Sorry if it seems harsh, but puppy buyers are just as responsible and as much as fault as these byb and puppy farms.


Thanks to all three of you - the silence on this thread is interesting in itself


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## Freyja

As you know I will soon be getting and italian greyhound puppy. We have been looking at the breed and finding out about them for about 4 years now. We are lucky in the fact that we * borrowed* and iggie for 6 weeks a couple of years ago. My friends stud dog came to stay with us for 6 weeks as her bitches were in season and he wouldclimb a 6ft fence to get to the bitches.

My son also handled her dog at shows and spent 3 weeks of the summer holidays helping to look after and show her dogs. It is a breed I would never be able to afford to buy although would always have loved to own and know many people in the breed. The only reason we are now going to have the pleasure of owning one of them is because my friend is giving us Willow. We know all the pros and cons they are extremely hard to house train and suffre from leg breaks very easily but we are prepared for this and there willbe no rough play with my gang he will be allowed to play and run but willbe supervised when with the bigger dogs.


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## flufffluff39

swarthy said:


> We see many posts about breeders and their responsibilities, but a few posts of late have made me think more about the puppy buyers responsibilities.
> 
> If someone wants to buy a pedigree pup - PLEASE do your research - the internet offers a wealth of information these days on essential and recommended tests.
> 
> It is - I understand - very difficult to walk away from a litter - so call ahead and ensure that as an absolute minimum, the recommended health tests have been done, if they haven't don't go.
> 
> Stories such as "oh dad has been hipscored" and "mum is healthy so we didn't bother" can hide much more sinister facts, like - we took mum for hipscoring, but the plates were horrendous so we didn't submit them and decided to play the role of the 'naive breeder' instead.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder adding a premium for KC regstration - it costs just *TWELVE pounds *to register a pup, and is probably the cheapest element of the whole breeding process.
> 
> =============================
> 
> If you want a cross breed or you are truly not concerned about the background of the pup - then your first port of call should be rescue. I appreciate that rescues aren't for everyone, after two years of trawling the rescues for a dog, we realised that my daughter's fear of grown dogs wasn't going to go away any time soon, (now she isn't afraid of any dog - good job when I have 6 of them )
> 
> ========================
> 
> All too often I hear people say, someone has to give these pups a home - and yes, I understand it isn't their fault they've been put on this earth, but for every breeder who had to give their pups away to rescue because they cannot find homes, will be one more breeder who will think twice before they do it again - and then these pups can be found homes responsibly.
> 
> I understand this will put more pressure on rescues initially, but long term, it just MIGHT help reduce the pressure.
> 
> A large percentage of people who buy deliberate cross-breeds and dogs from un health tested parents, give them away at the first sign of trouble - because such breeders are unlikely to have the courage of their convictions to accept that an owner is unsuitable for one of their pups - all they want to do is sell them
> 
> =====================
> 
> We hear a lot of talk about stopping Back yard Breeders and Puppy Farmers - but people don't seem to understand that the only person who can do something about it is *YOU* the puppy buying public -by doing your research and having the courage to say no.
> 
> A breeder that health tests doesn't make them good - if you are unhappy with ANY element of the litter or their environment - WALK AWAY.


Totally agree


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## PawsandPurrs-Bridgnorth

Just wanted to support this thread.


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## swarthy

Thank you those that have supported this thread - while I am not trying to incite a riot - I have to say however, the silence is deafening


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Thank you those that have supported this thread - while I am not trying to incite a riot - I have to say however, the silence is deafening


Isn't it just!


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## Kinjilabs

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Isn't it just!


I just wish I could say what I want to say but darent on here


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## MerlinsMum

Perhaps you're preaching to the converted...? I think most of us regulars on here would agree wholeheartedly with your post, which was excellent I have to say!

But how do we reach those others, who are not on here and probably scanning the web-ads as we speak? That's where the issues lies, and I have NO idea how we access that side of the problem


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## HeyMeow

Great post, thanks. Both my dogs are from responsible breeders and I did quite a lot of research before I chose the breeds I did. Which I am glad for, because the breeds suits me perfectly..However I am doing research into a new breed now (Bearded Collie) even though I don't want another dog for a year or two. But I concider it my duty as a dog lover to be 100% sure that I can offer that particular breed of dog a good home.


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## deb53

Popping by to say "with you all the way" here 

Good thread

xx


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## Sleeping_Lion

MerlinsMum said:


> Perhaps you're preaching to the converted...? I think most of us regulars on here would agree wholeheartedly with your post, which was excellent I have to say!
> 
> But how do we reach those others, who are not on here and probably scanning the web-ads as we speak? That's where the issues lies, and I have NO idea how we access that side of the problem


Hmmmm, I am sincerely hoping I won't get crucified for this, but, having opted out of replying to another thread in the breeding section tonight, because people voicing the responsible opinion are being slated, is it preaching to the converted?

I've typed a reply, and a new thread and deleted both, because I don't want to feel like I'm picking on one person, and I sincerely am not. But when open support goes on for a zero health tested, cross bred litter, to an underage bitch, can we really promote ourselves as a forum that promotes responsible breeding??

Now before anyone jumps off the deep end at me, that is a general statement, and not a personal one, but from what I have read, a factually correct one, which is quite sad.


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## LadyLoraella

Some silly questions but I know nothing about this kind of stuff so its really great I found this site as I'd totally be the person that would go to a byb and do everything wrong. I'm not planning on breeding or anything like that just curious.

Can I ask why different dog breeds are different prices? 

And when buying what is it you're actually paying for, obviously the dog but there must be more to it as I've learned that breeding is not a money making thing (but the area I grew up, it was!)
And why do some people charge different prices for dogs and bitches even though the shouldn't? Is it just a byb thing? 

Sorry for the dumb questions


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## Kinjilabs

MerlinsMum said:


> Perhaps you're preaching to the converted...? I think most of us regulars on here would agree wholeheartedly with your post, which was excellent I have to say!
> 
> But how do we reach those others, who are not on here and probably scanning the web-ads as we speak? That's where the issues lies, and I have NO idea how we access that side of the problem


Thanks saves me from typing


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## MerlinsMum

LadyLoraella said:


> Can I ask why different dog breeds are different prices?


 Actually they aren't, if you are buying a dog from a very good breeder, from healthy tested parents. Most breeds are £500-£600 from such a breeder, some go to £650 or slightly higher. Some very rare breeds are more, but not all.... and not from all breeders.... and that's the exception rather than the rule.

If you are seeing ads for cheaper dogs then they are either scammers ads, or BYBs.



> And why do some people charge different prices for dogs and bitches even though the shouldn't? Is it just a byb thing?


Very often, yes.


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## Sleeping_Lion

LadyLoraella said:


> Some silly questions but I know nothing about this kind of stuff so its really great I found this site as I'd totally be the person that would go to a byb and do everything wrong. I'm not planning on breeding or anything like that just curious.
> 
> Can I ask why different dog breeds are different prices?
> 
> And when buying what is it you're actually paying for, obviously the dog but there must be more to it as I've learned that breeding is not a money making thing (but the area I grew up, it was!)
> And why do some people charge different prices for dogs and bitches? Is it just a byb thing?
> 
> Sorry for the dumb questions


Not at all dumb, no question is!

A responsible breeder will health test their dogs for anything that is deemed a problem within the breed, so for Labradors, generally speaking that's hip sores and the annual bva eye certificate. Other breeders choose to go further, and undertake extra health tests, however, this shouldn't affect puppy price.

Depending on whether the breed is rare, and the size of litter, that will determine how much you pay for a pup. So a rare breed that has small litters will be expensive in comparison to other breeds. However, puppy farmers don't always charge less, and you will pay a premium to a puppy farmer, as much to a responsible breeder. The majority of those who breed responsibly do not charge a different price between bitches and dogs, although this is an old fashioned trend, and does still exist with a few people who do breed nice dogs, in an ethical manner.

Things to look out for with responsible breeders, they don't breed often, and in the majority of cases, will want to keep a pup or two back for themselves. They will have undertaken at least the KC's minimum requirement for health tests, to qualify for the accredited breeder scheme. They will also be happy to answer any questions, show you original health test paperwork, and further more, will question you about the role you will provide as an owner.

What you question goes to show, is that you always need to do your homework, never take it for granted that someone is a responsible breeder because they health test for a, b and c, or don't charge different prices for different colour/sex pups.


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## CarolineH

:thumbup: Brilliant post! :thumbup: This thread should definitely be *'stickied'*. How about it Mods, please?

In my experience, people are too keen to buy pups of a breed that they 'like the look of' without doing their research first and finding out whether or not that breed is suitable for their lifestyle. :001_cool:


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## swarthy

MerlinsMum said:


> Perhaps you're preaching to the converted...? I think most of us regulars on here would agree wholeheartedly with your post, which was excellent I have to say!
> 
> But how do we reach those others, who are not on here and probably scanning the web-ads as we speak? That's where the issues lies, and I have NO idea how we access that side of the problem


Can I just add, that the intention of the thread was not to preach - it was however triggered by various posts I've seen on here, so clearly not everyone is converted.

Most of the people who have been in predominantly or total agreement (and they are very much appreciated because I did hesitate about posting it - but felt it had to be said) - have been those I would probably have expected to do so from their other posts I've seen.

As for how we get the message across, I don't know. As some have probably gathered, a friend and I run the Labrador health website - and visitor numbers continue to increase - we are now first on Google for anything to do with labradors and hip scoring - yet - despite this, there still seems to be a culture of '"I want it now" or "it will never happen to me" 

==============================



LadyLoraella said:


> Some silly questions but I know nothing about this kind of stuff so its really great I found this site as I'd totally be the person that would go to a byb and do everything wrong. I'm not planning on breeding or anything like that just curious.
> 
> Can I ask why different dog breeds are different prices?
> 
> And when buying what is it you're actually paying for, obviously the dog but there must be more to it as I've learned that breeding is not a money making thing (but the area I grew up, it was!)
> And why do some people charge different prices for dogs and bitches even though the shouldn't? Is it just a byb thing?


They are not silly questions at all, they are quite reasonable ones.

I can't speak for all breeds - but I would say that where numbers of a breed were fewer, there is a likelihood you will pay more for a pup, so there an element of supply and demand does come into it.

Within a breed you may also find regional variations in price - the price for a responsibly bred pup for my own breed currently sits between around £450 to £650 - my prices sit somewhere in the middle of it.

As for charging different prices for dogs and bitches - no it isn't just BYB and PF do this - I have seen some responsible breeders doing it - I've never understood why because we have no control over the ratio of pups within the litter.

================

What are you paying for? You are paying for a responsibly bred, KC registered pup whose parents have undergone at least the essential, and hopefully the recommended health tests for the parents.

You are paying for a well raised, well socialised puppy that has been weaned properly, wormed regularly and socialised - and also maybe vet checked, microchipped and in some instances received their first jabs.

You may also get free insurance, free food, a puppy pack with a whole range of advice on diet, exercise and various other things - plus a lifetime of support from the breeder.

You can almost guarantee that when everything has been paid for, including the often forgotten increased fuel costs of heating / cooling pups, and washing and drying - the breeder is making very little, if any money out of it.

Obviously, there will be some breeds where less health testing is required, and if by their nature they are fewer in numbers, then there might be money to made from a litter - but TBH - all in all, it's not done for the money in any breed.

So far, between being unable to breed from one bitch I bought in, and all the costs of health testing and raising the litters - all in all, I am currently about £2 to £3K down


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## MerlinsMum

swarthy said:


> Can I just add, that the intention of the thread was not to preach - it was however triggered by various posts I've seen on here, so clearly not everyone is converted.


Just a phrase... I could have said "singing from the same hymn sheet" I guess.

I won't be in a position to have a second dog for some time yet - even thinking later this year would be optimistic. But I know where it's coming from and have already met the breeder and her dogs, plus the girl I would love a pup from... oddly enough it's not their top show dog! They don't show that often as they live in a remote part of the UK and it costs them a bomb to get to any shows.

She breeds very rarely though is planning two litters this year, then she may not breed again for another 4 years. All are eye tested as per Breed Club recommendations and hipscored, and she encourages her puppy buyers to test even if they are not bred from, to widen the knowledge and statistics for the breed.

She can put as many endorsements as she likes on the pup I will have - and as watertight a contract as she wants as I have no intention of breeding whatsoever. Showing might be an option but I don't drive, so if I had to choose between spaying and showing, spaying would win (if it were advised for the breed, as occasionally some breeds are better left entire).

If it so happens I don't end up having one of hers then I probably won't have another at all, or will take on a rescue of another breed. I have another breeder in mind of a slightly different breed but I have not met that breeder, merely seen one of her pups. I'd need to wait and do more research first.


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## Burrowzig

swarthy said:


> A large percentage of people who buy deliberate cross-breeds and dogs from un health tested parents, give them away at the first sign of trouble - .......


Just wondering, what's your evidence for this statement? What do you define as a 'large percentage', and how can you determine the numbers bred and bought, and those 'given away'?


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## swarthy

Burrowzig said:


> Just wondering, what's your evidence for this statement? What do you define as a 'large percentage', and how can you determine the numbers bred and bought, and those 'given away'?


I live in the heart of PF land in the UK and you only have to look at what runs through the rescues and their backgrounds to determine it's seldom the responsibly bred dogs from health tested parents that end up in these situations (I am not saying never) - however, responsible breeders do try to work with the new owners to help with rehoming if required (people's circumstances do sometimes unavoidably change) - but although I've not been a breeder for that long, my involvement in dogs spans most of my life, and the evidence is there for all to see.

I am not saying ALL - I know there will be some people who don't have the courage to go back to their breeder - but the weighting leans very heavily towards puppy farm and BYB dogs - if you don't believe me, come to Wales and trawl the rescues - the evidence is there in black and white - and it doesn't get any better.

I also know a large number of people who have rehomed these dogs (running into hundreds) and the stories are invariably always the same


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## leashedForLife

*Just saw this thread - Bravo!!... :thumbup: 
yes, the consumer drives the production of *cheap litters* with no screening, substandard care, etc - 
if they were to stop buying, BYBs + profit-hungry cross-breeders would go out of bizness.  *


LadyLoraella said:


> Can I ask why different dog breeds are different prices?
> And when buying what is it you're actually paying for, obviously the dog but there must be more to it... [snip]...
> And why do some people charge different prices for dogs and bitches even though they shouldn't? Is it just a byb thing?


hey, lor! :--) 
these are actually good Qs, as they are very common puzzles.

breed-prices in the USA are not identical to UK, but part of the difference is simply, _How many pups per average litter?_ 
English-Bulldogs are notoriously difficult and co$tly to breed - the stud is too doggone heavy for the bitchs tiny rear-quarters, 
and his torso is so hefty + barrel-round that he may have difficulty with intromission. :crazy: it can take 3 ppl or even 4 
to get a single English-Bulldog bitch bred - one supports the bitch at the rear, one at the Fs head, and one or 2 support the stud, 
so the full weight of his torso isn;t knocking her flat.

*then!... * after all that crowded work, after the M-dog dismounts, after any tie fades, after 63 to 65 days time... 
she has to have a Caesarian-section, to ensure her own safety and her litters.  more $$ - about $1200-USA! 
and thats with no complications, too - *and now she has only 2 to 3 pups, maybe 4 - * so the average price of a Bulldog-pup 
is about $1200 - $1300-USA, direct from a breeder; unscrupulous pet-shops sell puppy-mill-produced Bulldog-pups for $1600 to $2500-USA.

other breeds are equally notorious for enormous litters - *101 Dalmations* was an inside-joke; 12 to 16 pups is common, 
in a Dal-litter. so the price of an individual-pup can be lower, because the co$t of the breeding, feeding, screens, etc, 
is spread over more pups - AND she is un-likely to need a C-section except as an unpredicted emergency.

if U are buying a well-planned, well-bred pup from screened parents, U are getting a pup who is likelier to have fewer 
chronic health-problems, unlikely to have serious behavior issues from heritable temperament (fear-bite, severe-aggro, etc), 
and so on; this saves a significant amount of money + worry, over the life of the dog. *even cross-breeders if they are ethical, 
should SCREEN every potential dam + sire, prior to any breeding - simply crossing unrelated breeds is not instant-assurance 
of healthy, long-lived progeny.

a good breeders pups are typically less-co$tly than pet-shop pups, but more co$tly than some BYBs - who do not screen, 
may sell the pups far too-young for their emotional of physical health, and cut other corners to increase their profit, and cut co$ts.

which would U rather buy?  
cheers, 
--- terry*


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## davehyde

most folk put more thought into buying a carpet than a puppy.

they are just not pet savvy enough.

knowing the questions to ask and the correct answers required is a must.

knowing the average price of a well bred pup of breed type helps a lot too, helps weed out money seekers and if too cheap gives an indicator of money not spent on tests etc.

when i get told by someone 

"i am getting a pup"
i always say,in a disparaging way. "what do want a dog for?"

then their answers give me an indication of if they will be a good owner and buying for the right reasons.

surprising how simple a bit of psychology works sometimes.

maybe someone could design a good checklist for when buying a pup and sticky it.
then at least if we know of ppl looking we could maybe print it out for them and give them some clue of what to do and look for.


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## swarthy

davehyde said:


> maybe someone could design a good checklist for when buying a pup and sticky it.
> then at least if we know of ppl looking we could maybe print it out for them and give them some clue of what to do and look for.


In principle, this is an excellent idea - and there are some generic things which run across all breeders - which I hope I've covered in my initial post.

However, it's the complexities around individual breeds which makes it more difficult, I can tell you the inside outs of what to look for in my own breed in terms of health and temperament, which tests MUST be done, which are nice to have, and which at present still need more research.

But when it comes to the other 249 breeds, other than the well documented issues such as SM in Cavs, HD and ED in GSD (coupled with visual movement), a range of eye and skin problems in Poodles, I wouldn't know what tests are required for each individual breed - and this is what people need to find out, and one reason why there are so many breed forums across the Internet.

Champdogs - Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding - Online Since 1999 is actually an excellent source of information on health testing, because against each breed, they list whether the dogs in a kennels ownership are health tested, and give an overview on each of the conditions - however, in terms of "up to date" - on things such as eye tests, for example, it relies on the owners to send the up to date information to CD for them to update.

A lot of people don't realise eye certificates are annual, whereas DNA tests are 'once in a lifetime' tests, as are hip and elbow scores are one in a lifetime.

Then there are the complexities of results, such as what is a breed average, which can range from 5 in some breeds to above 40 in others.

DNA results - is a condition dominant or recessive? if recessive, providing one parent is DNA clear - you can never produce affected offspring.

There is a sticky thread in this category on the various health tests for each breed - but really, to centralise all the information in one place, it needs to be in a methodical, easy to use order.

We did look at trying to widen Lab health to cover other breeds - and we have done in terms of people's experiences, but in terms of the health results, we simply don't have that level of knowledge.


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## pickle

========================
*
"All too often I hear people say, someone has to give these pups a home - and yes, I understand it isn't their fault they've been put on this earth, but for every breeder who had to give their pups away to rescue because they cannot find homes, will be one more breeder who will think twice before they do it again - and then these pups can be found homes responsibly.*

*I understand this will put more pressure on rescues initially, but long term, it just MIGHT help reduce the pressure.

A large percentage of people who buy deliberate cross-breeds and dogs from un health tested parents, give them away at the first sign of trouble - because such breeders are unlikely to have the courage of their convictions to accept that an owner is unsuitable for one of their pups - all they want to do is sell them :*( "

=====================

Excellent points there. Totally agree, well said. :thumbup:


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## Fuzzbugs!x

Great thread ! Ovbiously not everyone is converted when people come on with pregnant bitches or puppies with health and tempremant issues from the local byb. If threads like these make people walk away from a dodgy litter and go to a good breeder or rescue then it's a great idea . Bronson, our newfoundland boy wasn't from the best of breeders and the difference in health and even the way we got the puppy was so different to Hudson and Barney. So we made the same mistake that many make and made sure we didnt do it again. When getting our other boys we travelled to cambridgeshire, kent ect and walked away from litters of cute little puppies until we found our breeders and went on a waiting list. x


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## billyboysmammy

swarthy only just seen this (think i must qualify for my dark glasses and stick now!)!

Excellent thread, covers just about all the basics without getting into the nitty gritty of each breeds individual needs etc.

Can i add a couple more things?

*Go armed with questions, 

* see proof of all health tests discussed (part of do your research to know what should be done beforehand)

* expect to be asked just as many questions as you have asked yourself. The breeder should be just as concerned that you are the right home for their pup as you are that they are a good breeder!

If in any doubt (even just the slightest niggle in your tummy) run away!


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## swarthy

billyboysmammy said:


> swarthy only just seen this (think i must qualify for my dark glasses and stick now!)!
> 
> Excellent thread, covers just about all the basics without getting into the nitty gritty of each breeds individual needs etc.
> 
> Can i add a couple more things?
> 
> *Go armed with questions,
> 
> * see proof of all health tests discussed (part of do your research to know what should be done beforehand)
> 
> * expect to be asked just as many questions as you have asked yourself. The breeder should be just as concerned that you are the right home for their pup as you are that they are a good breeder!
> 
> If in any doubt (even just the slightest niggle in your tummy) run away!


Of course - thank you - will add them to the initial post if I am still able to edit it if that's OK - keep everything in one place.

I think we both said pretty much the same thing in that, if ANYTHING doesn't feel right - 'run like h*ll' 

I just so wish people would take heed - I know lots of people will say - oh - but we've always done it this way and never had a problem - but things have moved on so much in the last 5 to 10 years and there is so much more information readily available - there really is no excuse for it.

=====================

I have always had a lifelong interest in breeding and showing and worked in a number of kennels in my younger days - but TBH - it didn't even enter my head when my (previously terrified) daughter decided she wanted a dog.

We trawled the rescue centres nearly every weekend for two years - and there was just 'something' about every adult dog that frightened her  so we ended up buying in a puppy.

Before we got really hooked on showing, we tried unsuccessfully for about three years to rehome a rescue, sadly, because my girl wasn't neutered - they would not allow it - even though we were looking at neutered bitches


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## billyboysmammy

swarthy said:


> Of course - thank you - will add them to the initial post if I am still able to edit it if that's OK - keep everything in one place.
> 
> I think we both said pretty much the same thing in that, if ANYTHING doesn't feel right - 'run like h*ll'
> 
> *I just so wish people would take heed - I know lots of people will say - oh - but we've always done it this way and never had a problem - but things have moved on so much in the last 5 to 10 years and there is so much more information readily available - there really is no excuse for it.*


of couse add away!

I bolded one bit because that is just so so true!

Now that more of the public are aware of what to look for in a pup and a breeder (sadly not enough... but the members here should certainly be aware!) there really is no excuse for going to a bad breeder in the future.

Questions to ask yourself if your considering it...

1 - I love/will love my new pup... do i want it to die from something that could have been guarenteed preventable by genetic testing?

2 - I love/will love my new pup... do i want to increase its chances of having a life long debillitating disease that could have been screened for (e.g. hip dysplasia, annual eye testing - no guarentees but bettering your chances).

3 - I love/will love my new pup... do i want its first few weeks of life to have been miserable, cold and dark?

4 - i love/will love my new pup... do i want my puppy to suffer?

5 - i love/will love my new pup... but i want to help these poor puppy farmed puppies.... should i help the "farmer" breed more, or should i get the same pup from a rescue who helps them?

6 - i love/will love my new pup... am i willing to risk his life just for the sake of a few ££'s?

7 - i loved our old dog and he came from one of these places, but would i want to risk it all again, just on the offchance that i am one of the lucky ones?


----------



## davehyde

one more question to ask.

do i want to take on a long saga of vet bills, illness, pain and suffering just because the puppy needs a home?


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## flufffluff39

Burrowzig said:


> Just wondering, what's your evidence for this statement? What do you define as a 'large percentage', and how can you determine the numbers bred and bought, and those 'given away'?


Do you define a byb as someone who shoots pups out at a high rate and gives no time to the upbringing and care of pups and sells ill pups for a profit or someone who looks after welfare of both mum and pups and if one pup is not suitable for selling keeps it themselves and spends more than they recieve for healthy pups??? Just curious thats all?? I have often wondered where unwanted pups go myself???


----------



## shazalhasa

swarthy said:


> Champdogs - Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding - Online Since 1999 is actually an excellent source of information on health testing, because against each breed, they list whether the dogs in a kennels ownership are health tested, and give an overview on each of the conditions - however, in terms of "up to date" - on things such as eye tests, for example, it relies on the owners to send the up to date information to CD for them to update.


This is an excellent thread and am glad someone has thought to start it and in such a responsible way :thumbup:

Regards the quote above, I agree with it in principle but from experience know that some very irresponsible buyers use it. So much has been said about certain puppy websites in a negative way but I used them all to advertise my litter last year and would use them again. I also added my website to Champdogs in the hope of attracting 'the right sort of buyer' but the only enquiries that came from it were from really dodgy sounding people 

I'm not having a go at Champdogs, I've used it myself to see what's around, just saying that it's not just the responsible buyer that uses it.


----------



## flufffluff39

davehyde said:


> one more question to ask.
> 
> do i want to take on a long saga of vet bills, illness, pain and suffering just because the puppy needs a home?


Totally agree but some people feel sorry for the pup thats cowering in the corner with runny eyes n nose!!! Thats what it is really people want to help but we can't help them all and thats what you have to tell puppy buyers!! Leave that one there!! No matter how much it pains you to do it


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## swarthy

shazalhasa said:


> I'm not having a go at Champdogs, I've used it myself to see what's around, just saying that it's not just the responsible buyer that uses it.


No - this is true and the same can be said for any website (some really are much worse  ) - it is up to the breeder to filter the owners - I probably turn away about 70 to 80% of all puppy enquiries I get at first point of contact - and some of the whackier (non puppy) enquiries I get - well nuff said!!!!! 

I like Champdogs because they are moving towards increasingly higher standards;

in terms of recording and validating health results, they will not permit the advertisement of litters without a clear 12 months between 2 litters from the same bitch and they now clearly identify those breeders who use health testing - out of all the sites I've used (probably with the exception of my own site), they are undoubtedly one of the better ones.


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## pickle

Trouble is, as with everything in life, you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink!
How many times are people warned and advised about "cowboy builders" or similar? They still go for the flashy advertisements, the fancy web-sites, the so convincing sales talk or the lowest price. These are the folk that need to be educated about puppy buying but there will always be those that have the mentality to be swayed by these same things. 
Impulse buyers using credit cards to buy puppies from commercial breeders is another extremely worrying concept. I think that purchasing live animals this way should not be allowed.


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## Sleeping_Lion

The sad thing is, there are still people posting on this forum advocating buying pups from unhealthtested parents, and unplanned litters. As long as there are people willing to support the purchase of pups from these situations, there will be those willing to take advantage. As well as this, take into account those who are willing to buy the current fashionable cross bred, a thread was locked (I believe) earlier about husky x staff mixes, where there can be a waiting list for a pup, regardless of any health tests, and it appears the majority of *breeders* producing this cross own both bitch and *stud* dog - I say these things lightly, because a breeder and a stud dog to me, are very different to those who choose to bung a couple of dogs together to make a quick profit. I only hope that people reading will realise that if they make the responsible decision, that may end up with less dogs ending their lives in misery at the end of it all. For every single person who buys a pup from anyone who just breeds for cash, it just fuels the situation, and the sad fact is, many of these dogs just end up being pts.


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## bulldogmania

All interested pet buyer should know this. Thanks


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## vilnius

LadyLoraella said:


> Can I ask why different dog breeds are different prices?
> 
> And why do some people charge different prices for dogs and bitches even though the shouldn't?


I also asked myself same questions after initial quick search of puppies... And realised that the breed I chose to get is one of the top priced 



MerlinsMum said:


> Actually they aren't, if you are buying a dog from a very good breeder, from healthy tested parents. Most breeds are £500-£600 from such a breeder, some go to £650 or slightly higher. Some very rare breeds are more, but not all.... and not from all breeders.... and that's the exception rather than the rule.
> 
> If you are seeing ads for cheaper dogs then they are either scammers ads, or BYBs.


I don't want to buy a pup from a BYB or so called 'farmer' and support their 'business'... Oh, why I fell in love with a rare breed, where a puppy costs two or three times more then your average price :crying:



swarthy said:


> As for charging different prices for dogs and bitches - no it isn't just BYB and PF do this - I have seen some responsible breeders doing it - I've never understood why because we have no control over the ratio of pups within the litter.
> 
> ================
> 
> What are you paying for? You are paying for a responsibly bred, KC registered pup whose parents have undergone at least the essential, and hopefully the recommended health tests for the parents.
> 
> You are paying for a well raised, well socialised puppy that has been weaned properly, wormed regularly and socialised - and also maybe vet checked, microchipped and in some instances received their first jabs.
> 
> You may also get free insurance, free food, a puppy pack with a whole range of advice on diet, exercise and various other things - plus a lifetime of support from the breeder.
> 
> You can almost guarantee that when everything has been paid for, including the often forgotten increased fuel costs of heating / cooling pups, and washing and drying - the breeder is making very little, if any money out of it.


Thanks for this thorough explanation... It makes sence now...


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## leashedForLife

vilnius said:


> I... asked myself same questions after initial quick search of puppies...
> And realised that the breed I chose to get is one of the top priced
> I don't want to buy a pup from a BYB or so called 'farmer' and support their 'business'...
> Oh, why [did I fall] in love with a rare breed, where a puppy costs two or three times more then your average price :crying:


what's the breed? 
if there's a breed-rescue, they may have young-pups, pubertal-pups or teen dogs, or adults who need a home;

it is also possible to find a show-dog who is retiring, a pup who was held as a breeding prospect 
who matured into a less-perfect specimen than the breeder expected, a dog who does not get along with another 
resident-dog [often of the same-sex], and others of the breed that U are looking for, homeless or unwanted 
thru no fault of their own.

- terry


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## billyboysmammy

leashedForLife said:


> what's the breed?
> if there's a breed-rescue, they may have young-pups, pubertal-pups or teen dogs, or adults who need a home;
> 
> it is also possible to find a show-dog who is retiring, a pup who was held as a breeding prospect
> who matured into a less-perfect specimen than the breeder expected, a dog who does not get along with another
> resident-dog [often of the same-sex], and others of the breed that U are looking for, homeless or unwanted
> thru no fault of their own.
> 
> - terry


agreed, its also worth phoning round the breeders as many rehome them themselves directly.

* Pups returned because the new owner bit off more than they can chew.
* 4-8mo pups held back for potential show who have not quite got the looks for it
* 4-12mo pups held back for working who havent the inclination
* 4-8yr old bitches who have had their allotted pups and are being retired into a cosy 121 home.
* dogs of either sex who would prefer a lone dog household


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## vilnius

leashedForLife said:


> what's the breed?


I am looking for a French Bulldog bitch. I've decided for myself that I want a little puppy and instead of taking an adult from a rescue it's better to save up and wait for some time. I heard these dogs have a character and I'd like to give my pet proper training and care from early days... Anyway, I don't want to go into detail, because it's a different subject we are talking about.

This tread made me change my view of the dog selling ads and I am making a further research now. I've found there are awailable puppies from dog breeders on KC website and I'll try to make investigation of prices there. I will look more suspiciously to those selling puppies of different sex and colour for different prices now, that seems stupid to me as well :001_cool:


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## collielass22

Thanlyou for all the Info on Finding the Right Breeder, and Pup, i have been let Down, as I thought Myself and the Breeder would get o well, But as Soon as we Asked about Testing then Thing Really went Bad, so we are not taking the pup, But its Sad. Thanks.


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## Guest

collielass22 said:


> Thanlyou for all the Info on Finding the Right Breeder, and Pup, i have been let Down, as I thought Myself and the Breeder would get o well, But as Soon as we Asked about Testing then Thing Really
> 
> It went Bad, so we are not taking the pup, But its Sad. Thanks.


It is a fantastic thread that Swarty posted here!

Sorry you have been let down, but it look like the proof could be in the pudding!

You asked the breeder some sticky questions and they weren't quite so sweet as they first appeared!

What breed are you seeking by the way?

And good luck in your search
regards
DT


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## bluestaffie

Everyone just needs to think before they buy....... IF THERE WAS NO MARKET, THERE WOULD BE NO BACK STREET ,PUPPY FARMING, UNTESTED BREEDERS OUT THERE. 
There is nothing more frustrating from a good breeder who puts in time and effort researching their chosen breed, the lines and when they decide to breed putting in the capital to be able to use the best stud possible to complement their bitch, pay for vets and the rest that comes with being responsible, to have some uneducated buyer phone up and say how much??? I got a unregistered pup for £50 the other day! 
JUST REMEMBER YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. SAY NO TO BAD BREEDING AND HELLO TO HEALTHY, TESTED AND VET CHECKED PUPPIES.


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## nfp20

Interesting thread, few sweeping statements and a curious thing that a thread about buyer responsibility is turned back around to breeder behaviour...

As a buyer you have a responsibility to make an informed choice about your purchase, its future, the activities you wish to do with it and your abilities to take a puppy from a breeder and help it to grow into a well rounded and socialised adult. Is the breed, breeder and dog for you?? 

You have to accept that no matter what tests are carried out and I am an advocate of testing that puppies & adult dogs get ill. Tests only help to reduce a very limited number of well known and recognised conditions they do not guarantee perfect health for the life of your puppy.

Behavioural problems are more often than not due to environment and lack of consistant training, very few puppies are born with nasty natures, the majority are failed by their owners - do your training, don't be a lazy know it all.

Don't expect your breeder to stay in touch with you... this is a two way street no breeder wants to be intrusive but they all if they care want regular updates. Social network sites are a great way to stay in touch without having to make an enormous or direct effort. Its also a great way to stay in touch with littermates.

Last but not least... all puppies/dogs get the runs occassionally for numerous reasons from stress to dietary issues. Its not always sinister if your dog regularly gets the runs keep a diary with the following:

Food including treats, time fed, quantity, type (dry/wet/raw/cooked) and product.

Activity: dogs routine, time alone, what time you get up go to with other dogs or not??

Do the diary for a few weeks so you can see a statistical pattern more often than not its not some mystery dietary illness caused by hereditary fault you can blame on the breeder but a stress factor with your dogs environment or diet.

Take responsibility for your pet. Your breeder can be the best or worst in the world but once your puppy leaves with you they no longer have any control over your puppy only you do as its owner at their best all they can do is advise you if you choose not to take that advice you leave your breeder helpless to help you.

Not all accidental matings result in a breeder who is uncaring and does not take responsibility for their dogs.


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## Very_Versace

So what determines a back yard breeder. I am awaiting for a kennel name from the kennel club, I have paid £70 for that, my bitch is 2 and has been DNA tested, eye tested, hip scored and elbow graded. I intended to breed from her 3 times over her lifetime maximum as she shows a lot of ability at agility, we are still learning. She has extremely good european lines, a great temperament, good confirmation and the vet is more than happy for her to breed. She is fully vaccinated, microchipped, healthy and insured. So overall I spend a lot of money on my dogs who are health checked every 3mths when I take them to the vets to be weighed to get their correct dose of wormer.

I also have an agreement drawn up with the help of my solicitor that explains in great detail about the responsibilities and demands of owning a dobermann. One is they must be microchipped, they can not be run as fence dogs otherwise I have full rights to claim them back, also if they are dumped or sent to rescue homes(depending on circumstances) I have to right to have them prosecuted and claim back the unwanted Dobe until I find a suitable home. I also vet homes and take my huge chunky male so they can see the potential growth of any puppy before making a decision.

But I don't have a lot of land. So would this make me a back yard breeder despite all the measures I have taken, if I do decide to breed my bitch.

It just seems strange that people with loads of land and have taken the same measures as me (sometimes fewer) are allowed to be called a kennel and people like me seem to be berated for my desire to continue my dogs good lines. 

This is not a rant it is merely a query.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Very_Versace said:


> So what determines a back yard breeder. I am awaiting for a kennel name from the kennel club, I have paid £70 for that, my bitch is 2 and has been DNA tested, eye tested, hip scored and elbow graded. I intended to breed from her 3 times over her lifetime maximum as she shows a lot of ability at agility, we are still learning. She has extremely good european lines, a great temperament, good confirmation and the vet is more than happy for her to breed. She is fully vaccinated, microchipped, healthy and insured. So overall I spend a lot of money on my dogs who are health checked every 3mths when I take them to the vets to be weighed to get their correct dose of wormer.
> 
> I also have an agreement drawn up with the help of my solicitor that explains in great detail about the responsibilities and demands of owning a dobermann. One is they must be microchipped, they can not be run as fence dogs otherwise I have full rights to claim them back, also if they are dumped or sent to rescue homes(depending on circumstances) I have to right to have them prosecuted and claim back the unwanted Dobe until I find a suitable home. I also vet homes and take my huge chunky male so they can see the potential growth of any puppy before making a decision.
> 
> But I don't have a lot of land. So would this make me a back yard breeder despite all the measures I have taken, if I do decide to breed my bitch.
> 
> It just seems strange that people with loads of land and have taken the same measures as me (sometimes fewer) are allowed to be called a kennel and people like me seem to be berated for my desire to continue my dogs good lines.
> 
> This is not a rant it is merely a query.


Why three times? Are you planning to keep a pup back from each litter at all? Apologies as I'm not trying to sound critical, but lots of dogs have good lines, but that doesn't equate to a reason for breeding. It can make up part of a reason, but there should be more to it than that, as an example, showing and/or working, trying to achieve something with better conformation, brilliant temperament, good working ability etc.

The term back yard breeder, I suppose is coined to describe someone who just decides to breed from the dog(s) to try and make money, so they will cut corners and possibly use their dog more times than they should, because they can sell the pups easily. It probably comes from the 'not in my back yard' type of phrase, but in this case, unfortunately it does go on, and far too often.


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## Very_Versace

Ok I suppose that is a fair reply. I said a maximum of 3 times which does not mean I will actually commit to 3 times. It all depends on how her agility results pan out. I am taking my driving test early next year (am not giving any dates as i believe in bad luck) so I can start going further afield to build on her ability. I do plan on keeping a bitch from this litter that will be spayed so we can start schutzhund and agility sooner. Also the pups will have endorsements on their paperwork such as no breeding. I know this does not guarantee they will not be bred from which is why I have a seperate agreement which is a legal document. The area I am from you have to be very careful whom you sell anything too. It is fighting staffie heaven, staffies running around highstreets with no lead and attacking other peoples dogs. So given my breed of dog I will not sell to just about anyone I expect to be questioned thoroughly over the phone before arranging a visit. Despite all of this and my strict standards I have a list of 16 people that have been vet checked. 3 are family members and 2 of them have over 10yrs experience with dobermann's.

My husband is trying to start his own dog security firm and is currently away on a dog handlers course and will be going on another after the new year. So it would be handy to have a selection of Dobermann's that are up to the task. Given that we have researched our bitches pedigree and the sires for about 9mths now we know what standard we should be able to achieve and what they should excel at.

And ANYONE thinking there is easy money in breeding is sorely mistaken. It is ONLY easy money if you are unethical. I intend to keep the pups until they are 10wks of age to ensure they have both jabs as opposed to throwing them out my door at 8wks.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Very_Versace said:


> Ok I suppose that is a fair reply. I said a maximum of 3 times which does not mean I will actually commit to 3 times. It all depends on how her agility results pan out. I am taking my driving test early next year (am not giving any dates as i believe in bad luck) so I can start going further afield to build on her ability. I do plan on keeping a bitch from this litter that will be spayed so we can start schutzhund and agility sooner. Also the pups will have endorsements on their paperwork such as no breeding. I know this does not guarantee they will not be bred from which is why I have a seperate agreement which is a legal document. The area I am from you have to be very careful whom you sell anything too. It is fighting staffie heaven, staffies running around highstreets with no lead and attacking other peoples dogs. So given my breed of dog I will not sell to just about anyone I expect to be questioned thoroughly over the phone before arranging a visit. Despite all of this and my strict standards I have a list of 16 people that have been vet checked. 3 are family members and 2 of them have over 10yrs experience with dobermann's.
> 
> My husband is trying to start his own dog security firm and is currently away on a dog handlers course and will be going on another after the new year. So it would be handy to have a selection of Dobermann's that are up to the task. Given that we have researched our bitches pedigree and the sires for about 9mths now we know what standard we should be able to achieve and what they should excel at.
> 
> And ANYONE thinking there is easy money in breeding is sorely mistaken. It is ONLY easy money if you are unethical. I intend to keep the pups until they are 10wks of age to ensure they have both jabs as opposed to throwing them out my door at 8wks.


Addressing each of your points separately, but I really wouldn't plan to spay to compete earlier with shchutzhund, early spay is not necessarily the best thing for a bitch, take your time to read up and do a bit more research into it.

Be careful with waiting lists, I have umpteen people wanting pups from my possible one litter out of a bitch, I don't expect all of them to be there when I do possibly take that litter. I don't keep a list in order of who applied first, but who is the one I want most to have a pup.

Dog security is a difficult one, done right, a dog can have a fab life and work well, I did PD training at working trials, so understand the basic principles, but it is something a lot of people can't understand.

Unfortunately, unethical breeding far outnumbers ethical breeding, you're obviously quite avid about breeding practicies, so good on you for doing your research and looking at breeding ethically. I may, if I go ahead, breed my first ethical litter early next year, haven't quite decided yet


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## Very_Versace

About the schutzhund and agility part. I wrote it wrong lol. I meant to imply that we started agility training with my current bitch a bit later than i liked, we have only been at it a few months. Keeping a bitch from this litter means I can start the training earlier i.e 1yr for agility. Not sure on schutzhund as not very familiar with it so not sure when you can begin training for that. I am guessing after the adult teeth have come through. I did not mean to imply that spaying a bitch would enable me to train for certain sports sooner, I would still have to wait until she was a year old for agility at any rate. But now I have more time and will be driving myself very soon I have more prospects and opportunities.


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## Stellabella

This is a really helpful and informative thread, Swarthy. I could have done with it myself a few years back!

I had been waiting a long time for a dog from a particular breeder, but when the time came there wasn't a dog for me, and there wasn't another litter planned for the forseeable future, so I decided to look around. 

I contacted a breeder who was SOOO impressed by the questions I was asking, and fell over herself to boast the heart and eye tests she had had done, the importance of proper breeding practice, the outstanding pedigree etc etc...

When I visited, the pups were dreadful. weak and odd-sized. there was mum, and another bitch, and a dog all together in a crate, no bedding, just a bowl of water. The woman produced the health certificates....luckily I had seen what they looked like from the breeder I had seen previously so I knew straight away thet these hastily typed bits of paper with a scrawly signature on them were NOT the genuine article. 

Sadly, though I knew it was right, I left without the pup that had fallen asleep on my lap. It had hardly moved all the time I was there 

So what I am saying really, is it's a good idea to familiarise yourself with what to look for when looking at health certificates. Unethical breeders won't balk at showing any made up bit of paper if they think it'll impress the uninitiated.

Also, don't underestimate their ability to say all the right things - they can answer your questions, convince you that they are genuine, and charge you the same prices as good breeders.

What you won't get is the lifetime support, the care that an ethical breeder will have given your pup long before it has even been born, and it's mother before it. You certainly can't ever be guaranteed a pup that'll never get ill, but you can be sure that an ethical breeder will have done everything they can to ensure that the best has been done to ensure the health of their dogs not just for the pups but for the future health of their breed.


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## PETER.PHIL

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. Everyone has great ideas for me to ad or arrange better. I have only produced one litter of puppies to date. I used this contract. All my puppies were sold by 4 weeks and picked up when old enough. So a hard contract works great.


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## Liquidsunshine

As someone looking into buying a puppy, this thread is so informative. Although I've already come across most of this, it just reinforces the responsibility about being sensible when it comes to buying pups. We were really set on getting a GSD but few of the breeders seemed to health test or hip score and a lot of the puppies were raised outside. I knwo someone else said, once you buy a puppy, it's away from this environment and it's up to the owner that the dog is trained to behave correctly and breeders can't be held responsible for the number of dogs in shelters etc. However, I think the important point was people buying from these breeders, encourage them, and if you do buy from a byb, you obv haven't done the research you should have and pup will probably end up in a rescue. So it is partly a breeders fault too, for breeding the dog and selling it, without proper consideration as to what will happen to the dog. I thnk it's an equal problem, no one side can have the blame heaped on them. The only way to stop it though, is for people to buy respnsibly and not just because it's quick eaysy and convenient to go to byb.


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## swarthy

Liquidsunshine said:


> As someone looking into buying a puppy, this thread is so informative. Although I've already come across most of this, it just reinforces the responsibility about being sensible when it comes to buying pups. We were really set on getting a GSD but few of the breeders seemed to health test or hip score and a lot of the puppies were raised outside. I knwo someone else said, once you buy a puppy, it's away from this environment and it's up to the owner that the dog is trained to behave correctly and breeders can't be held responsible for the number of dogs in shelters etc. However, I think the important point was people buying from these breeders, encourage them, and if you do buy from a byb, you obv haven't done the research you should have and pup will probably end up in a rescue. So it is partly a breeders fault too, for breeding the dog and selling it, without proper consideration as to what will happen to the dog. I thnk it's an equal problem, no one side can have the blame heaped on them. The only way to stop it though, is for people to buy respnsibly and not just because it's quick eaysy and convenient to go to byb.


It is an equal problem yes - but unfortunately - it is ONLY the puppy buyer that can stop the problem - because for as long as people keep buying the pups, bad breeders will keep producing them.

As an aside - I noticed your comment about pups raised outside - while I do raise my pups in the home, three of my four pups bought in were raised outside (first couple in the home and then moved out to dedicated puppy houses) - and I would have NO quibble whatsoever in buying from the same breeders again - the pups were well socialised and well adjusted - the only negative I did find was housetraining took a little longer.

TBH - for anyone who has had a reasonable sized litter of medium to large breed pups will probably, if they are honest, even if they do raise their pups solely inside - recognise the benefits of a good outside puppy house by 6/7 weeks as you bankrupt yourself with air fresheners and smelly candles :lol:


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## Liquidsunshine

Haha tbh I think I might be taking Ian Dunbar a bit to seriously. Never really thought about the cost for breeders inside. Maybe I won't be too quick to write them off. Thanks!


----------



## Houseofpets

I bought my 'pedigree' Dachshund just over 13 years ago, did as much research as I could (internet not around then), rang kennel club etc and got a list of breeders in my area. 

Visited a few breeders and decided on our Jasper. He was KC registered, had a good line of parentage (according to the research I managed to locate myself and from the kennel club), we didn't want him as a stud dog so had him 'done' at just over a year old...........from the age of 3 my poor boy has suffered from debilitating arthritis and has been on constant pain medication, first Rimadyl which affected his kidneys quite badly. The vets then recommended Metacam which he was then on for a few years but didn't really help. Eventually we found Previcox, this has made a huge change to him, he doesn't suffer from too much pain (or he doesn't appear to), to be honest we are so surprised we still have him with us, we have had extensive x-rays through his life and at the age of 5 the vets couldn't believe how bad his bones actualy were. 

We discovered some months later that the breeders sire & dam had managed to slip out of the house and both got run over by a bus!!! I think personally she had them put to sleep, whether this was because she no longer had any use for the Daxies or she just moved onto another breed (I think it may have been standard poodles?).

I am so thankful that breeders have improved over the years as no dog should have to suffer such awful illnesses from a very young age. My boy has been for his 3 monthly check up today and they say he is doing very well for such an oldie - after Jasper's busy morning he has gone to his memory foam bed (treated much better than I am as I don't have a bed so comfie) and covered himself with his blankets - for some reason Daxies seem to like being covered! I hope I have another few good years with him but am so grateful I have had him for this long :smile:


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## galleon

Hi,

I have been in contact with a breeder, that has the air of commercial breeding, but all the questions i have asked have been answered very forthcoming.

i am looking to draft up a contract for them to sign, do you have any help on this matter?


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## 912142

Just come across this thread which is very informative. 

I have owned Great Danes for more than 30 yrs and would class myself as a 'good, caring, owner', however, I do feel that we should have a system in place not unlike a driving test for new prospective owners. You may have a great breeder but they too can be taken in by a prospective purchaser which in turn can reflect on their reputation and that of the breed.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I do believe that having your dog spayed or neutered should be compulsory unless you are a registered bonafide breeder. There are too many dogs in rescue through indiscrimate breeding.

Apologies in advance if I have offended anyone with my comments.


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## DougGeneration

You certainly didn't and I somehow get your point. Population control, dog population in this case, is what's needed so that there wouldn't be several dogs in shelters all looking for a home. That along with responsible dog owning will pretty much save the day!


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## 912142

DougGeneration said:


> You certainly didn't and I somehow get your point. Population control, dog population in this case, is what's needed so that there wouldn't be several dogs in shelters all looking for a home. That along with responsible dog owning will pretty much save the day!


It would also I believe bring credibility to hard working registered breeders.


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## RobD-BCactive

I think population control and reduction in rescues, comes with proper care and responsibility of puppies.

Far too many ppl, fall for an emotional attachment with a cute puppy on sight. I know breeders who've complained in forum about ppl doing due diligence, who then went an bought a poor quality pup from an inferior breeder, apparently on a whim, having been on a waiting list. The problem is, hands on; humans are impulsive and don't realise necessarily the responsibility and amount of care, they'll need to put in.

Far too many puppies, were emerging only with the fine weather, just like lawn mowers. One 16 week old was fearful of both dogs and people, with owner responding to suggestion to go to puppy romp, with "she's fine at home!". Of course because that's the only place the poor pup had been *sigh*

That programme shown after Crufts mentioned compulsory chipping & socialisation in Sweden. Having "lured" an unchipped, uncollared young stray Shar-Pei bitch last month, roaming street into hands of a CSO, presumably abandonded as she'd become a handful, it's hard not to wonder if similar legislation would not be good idea here.


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## daszek999

Great advice on how to maintain your puppy healthy.


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## zigzoe

Extremely hard may be an understatement. We have owned dogs all my life and they have always been potty trained. Even if that meant accidents took place on the potty pad. My mom has an iggy (the love of her life) and she is 3 going on 4 in October. She still has accidents. Worst of all every winter she has to re-train her because she does not want to go outside. My dad actually shovels her a place in the snow where she can touch grass because otherwise all bets are off. Good luck and I hope you do not mind cleaning messes because most of the people we have talked to "used" to own an iggy. I think it is terribly sad because they are so cute, or at least my mom's Nellie is.


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## BexyBoo

I love this! its so helpfull as we're looking into getting a pup next year (English Shepherd) i have already looked up soo much on them i dont think there is a site about them i have'nt looked at lol. 
ive posted a link to this on the animal pages on facebook to make people think twice  

Becky xxxx


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## swarthy

DougGeneration said:


> You certainly didn't and I somehow get your point. Population control, dog population in this case, is what's needed so that there wouldn't be several dogs in shelters all looking for a home. That along with responsible dog owning will pretty much save the day!


If you did this and enforced it - there would be unlikely to be any small scale hobby breeders left - leaving the PUppy Farmers to meet the demand for puppies - as PF are predominantly responsible for a large percentage of the dogs ending up in rescue in the first place, what exactly do you think would be achieved?

Good breeders will take back / assist with rehoming their pups, this is not to say none end up in rescue, I am sure a small number do, but it simply doesn't compare to the numbers coming from PF.

To enforce such a monitoring scheme would place the costs outside the capacity of small scale breeders such as myself (and many others) - when more often many of us don't even break even when we have a litter.

If you want to control the dog population - stop puppy farmers breeding - even the small scale BYB must as I dislike their practices aren't responsible for the bulk of dogs ending up in rescue.

Stop the puppy farmers and force people to buy responsibly by doing their research beforehand

This is how you reduce the rescue problem, leaving rescue to care for the dogs who genuinely need it due to family break ups, severe illness and bereavement and genuine animal cruelty cases.

Anything which forces small scale hobby breeders out of the market place will only have a negative impact on the dog market and could well see a major increase in the number of dogs ending up in rescue


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## mad4labs

swarthy said:


> If you did this and enforced it - there would be unlikely to be any small scale hobby breeders left - leaving the PUppy Farmers to meet the demand for puppies - as PF are predominantly responsible for a large percentage of the dogs ending up in rescue in the first place, what exactly do you think would be achieved?
> 
> Good breeders will take back / assist with rehoming their pups, this is not to say none end up in rescue, I am sure a small number do, but it simply doesn't compare to the numbers coming from PF.
> 
> To enforce such a monitoring scheme would place the costs outside the capacity of small scale breeders such as myself (and many others) - when more often many of us don't even break even when we have a litter.
> 
> If you want to control the dog population - stop puppy farmers breeding - even the small scale BYB must as I dislike their practices aren't responsible for the bulk of dogs ending up in rescue.
> 
> Stop the puppy farmers and force people to buy responsibly by doing their research beforehand
> 
> This is how you reduce the rescue problem, leaving rescue to care for the dogs who genuinely need it due to family break ups, severe illness and bereavement and genuine animal cruelty cases.
> 
> Anything which forces small scale hobby breeders out of the market place will only have a negative impact on the dog market and could well see a major increase in the number of dogs ending up in rescue


The only way I can see to stamp out puppy farmers is for all reputable agencies to pull together, The Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme is a huge step forward, even if it was a long time coming. This scheme is starting to iron out some of the bad practices. Breed Clubs, Breed Councils, Local Councils, Vets, The RSPCA and the media, including all animal related websites, magazines etc. need to come together in extensively advertising and publishing information on puppy farmers. 
If I was about to buy my first dog and didn't have any connections to the world of dogs I wouldn't know where to start researching properly as there still is not enough public guidance out there for Joe Bloggs.

I personally am sick of getting phone calls, and one just last week where people havn't a clue, and are still unknowingly buying from puppy farmers, and sick of reputable breeders taking the brunt as usual.


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## swarthy

mad4labs said:


> The only way I can see to stamp out puppy farmers is for all reputable agencies to pull together, The Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme is a huge step forward, even if it was a long time coming. This scheme is starting to iron out some of the bad practices. Breed Clubs, Breed Councils, Local Councils, Vets,


As an ABS member, I am well aware of it's shortcomings and advantages and know it simply HAS to work.

As for all those bodies coming together - rightly or wrongly, you would probably get better odds on the Mayan calendar being correct in it's predictions for 2012 



mad4labs said:


> If I was about to buy my first dog and didn't have any connections to the world of dogs I wouldn't know where to start researching properly as there still is not enough public guidance out there for Joe Bloggs.


It's not difficult to do research on practically anything these days

The majority of people wouldn't buy a 12 month car insurance policy or a £200 washing machine without doing a lot of research first.

Yet when it comes to spending £500 + on a living creature which will hopefully be a valued member of their family for the next 8 to 18 years (dependent on breed) - so many do absolutely NO research 

Puppy buyers DO have a role to play.

Within that comes the courage to be able to walk away - most don't seem to realise that by saving one puppy from it's horrible surroundings, they are consigning so many more to similar or worse fates - when all it would take for most PF and BYB is to have just one or two litters than don't sell to make them realise it's not working any more.



mad4labs said:


> I personally am sick of getting phone calls, and one just last week where people havn't a clue, and are still unknowingly buying from puppy farmers, and sick of reputable breeders taking the brunt as usual.


Don't even go there  most of the puppy enquiries I get these days are from relatively well informed prospective owners, which is fab - unfortunately, I can't say the same for some of the stud enquiries I get


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## mad4labs

I never said that puppy buyers didn't have any responsibility, but there are a majority of people out there that are not wise, and it is up to people like us to educate them. We only know the ins and outs because we are part of the right circles, As for the said agencies not being likely to come together, that's what small breeders have been saying for years, but the ABS scheme came to fruition in the end, and so other agencies are bound to follow suit, but this will take time, so in the mean time if I can educate just one of my puppy enquirers, and they go on to educate 5 of their friends, the message will soon get around.


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## porchpotty

Thank you for the advice! Great thread!


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## Kaztim

I wish I had seen this Thread before I bought my last pup. Our first dog is a full Lab and we have never had any problems with her. 6 months ago we bought our second dog, now I will never regret buying him but I do wish we had looked into the breeder before we did buy him. He is 8 months old and has Hip Dysplasia, the breeder could not care less. I do blame myself for not checking them out first but I also blame them for breeding with a Dog that has bad Hips. I would recomend to anyone who wants to get a new addition to either go to a rescue or only buy from a reputable breeder. Always ask if parents have been Hip scored and if so ask to see the paperwork, if they say no then walk away.


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## leashedForLife

Kaztim said:


> .
> 
> 6-mos ago we bought our second dog - I... wish we'd looked into the breeder before we did buy him.
> He is 8-MO & has Hip Dysplasia  - the breeder could not care less.
> 
> I... blame myself for not checking... but I also blame them for breeding... a Dog that has bad Hips.
> 
> I would recommend anyone... either go to a rescue or only buy from a reputable breeder.
> Always ask if parents have been Hip-scored &... ask to see the paperwork, if they say no, then walk away.


i'm so sorry. :nonod: Keep him LEAN & keep him MOVING - he should be slightly underweight, 
not merely fit but a bit bony, & the more low-impact endurance type exercise, the better; 
swimming is ideal.

hip-dysplasia is not entirely the genes at work; in fact, *rearing is critical* for good hips: 
traction is especially important, & the recent surge in popularity of marble, hardwood & tile floors 
has been bad for pups & dogs, since they slip & slither, particularly when they try to get up.

the best-guess last i heard was that genes were only *40% of hip joint structure*
while rearing - diet / portions, traction, WEIGHT to size / age, & exercise - were * 60% *. 
U can have a pup whose parents both score 'excellent' but by over-feeding & growing a big fat pup 
on young soft joints, & keeping the pup on poor traction surfaces, U can *create* dysplastic hips.

keeping pups lean & fit, with lots of free-running exercise & minimal body-fat, lets their young joints 
grow into the task of carrying their weight & coping with mechanical forces - & adding TRACTION to slick 
substrates is very important, too. Put down runners of non-skid plastic or rubber, add rugs with secure 
backing, etc - U can take them up when the pup is 18-MO or so, & bring them back when s/he is aging - 
once the dog is past middle-age, elders need extra traction, too. 

the take-home message? 
hip-dysplasia & other developmental issues aren't ALL on the breeder - 
buyers & owners can often mitigate the effects, even if the genes are cr*p. :thumbsup:


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## rocco33

> hip-dysplasia & other developmental issues aren't ALL on the breeder -
> buyers & owners can often mitigate the effects, even if the genes are cr*p.


Very true, but there is no excuse for the many that breed without hip scoring their dogs even if it is not a foolproof test.


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## leashedForLife

rocco33 said:


> Very true, but there is no excuse for the many [who] breed [dogs] without hip scoring...
> even if it is not a foolproof test.


AGREED :thumbup1: - but it's not the test i'm criticizing, hun; the test is accurate, altho 
Penn-HIP is more predictive at an earlier age & more accurate than a one-pose hyperextension [as in OFA].

my emphasis is on the fact that after buying a pup, the owner's rearing *can have* more influence 
on the pup's eventual hip-joints than the parents' genes do, in any case. That 60 / 40 split is significant.
:yesnod:


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## tinaa

This one is really important BEWARE of any breeder selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices. There are lots of scammers in the world so one should be wise enough to make decisions before breeding.


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## ronnypaston

It is highly recommendable not to buy puppy if you are not satisfied with the knowledge of the breeder. Apart from that Dedicating yourself fully for the life of the puppy is the first and foremost responsibility of the buyers. They should be willing to overcome puppies in their ups and downs.


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## russelgrane

The basic responsibilities of every dog owner is to take proper care for their pets, they should consider them as family member after owning them. They should be trained well and should be feed well with proper food.


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## odettemayers

When we first bought our puppy, we took all the responsibilities that we need to do from her vitamins, injections for the anti-rabies, foods, clothes, grooming because we want her to feel that she is loved by us. We treat her us baby and now that she's a year and 3 months old, she's getting cuddled and cute. Glad that you have shared it in here.


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## Cuddlecat

We are thinking about getting a puppy. Have been doing a bit of research. We are looking at a Staffie - terrible rep I know, but we want a medium sized dog that will be a good family pet.

I have seen a couple of ads where the females are less money. Can I ask why this is a no-no please?

There is a massive price difference - £900 at most, £175 the least. We aren't too bothered about breeding, just want to ensure it has had this eye test done.


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## dexter

HAVE A LOOK ON THE kc LIST OF accredited breeders for the breed , some breeders charge more for bitches, i have no idea why. good luck in your quest.


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## swarthy

Cuddlecat said:


> There is a massive price difference - £900 at most, £175 the least. We aren't too bothered about breeding, just want to ensure it has had this eye test done.


it is nothing to do with breeding - in fact, it is fair to say that the right health tests are even more important for pet owners - surely everyone wants to maximise the potential of having a healthy dog and minimise the risk of a dog developing severe health problems?

The mandatory tests for ABS members are

1) Annual eye testing 
2) DNA test - HC-HSF4 
3) DNA test L2-HGA

Recommended, is that litters should be eye screened for PHPV

It is also work reading this page and the related links

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club - The Parent Club

ETA - there is also currently a petition calling for mandatory health-testing for all staffies being bred

http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petition/34001.html


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## 79daisy

Glad to see that someone is saying it is also the buyers responsibilities,I have just had a litter of yorkshire terrier puppies. Had a buyer of a little girl send me a letter after buying the pup and veiwing it twice say that they took pup to vets and it a female pseudohermaphrodite and because I stated they were vet checked then I knowly sold this pup that way, pups were vet checked at 5 days old and was told by vet healthy pups ect. The buyer is now shouting "sale of goods act" to me , which states she should have a refund if faulty which I'm happy to do but she goes on to say, she would like to keep the pup but wants money back she paid for it and vet bill so they have something in hand to go on with. I'm happy to refund money if she would like to bring puppy back. New to this site has anyone else had simliar problem ? Many thanks.


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## leashedForLife

79daisy said:


> Glad to see that someone is saying it is also the buyers responsibilities,I have just had a litter of yorkshire terrier puppies. Had a buyer of a little girl send me a letter after buying the pup and veiwing it twice say that they took pup to vets and it a female pseudohermaphrodite and because I stated they were vet checked then I knowly sold this pup that way, pups were vet checked at 5 days old and was told by vet healthy pups ect. The buyer is now shouting "sale of goods act" to me , which states she should have a refund if faulty which I'm happy to do but she goes on to say, she would like to keep the pup but wants money back she paid for it and vet bill so they have something in hand to go on with. I'm happy to refund money if she would like to bring puppy back. New to this site has anyone else had simliar problem ? Many thanks.


this is a totally different topic, hun - 
 i'd suggest start a new thread, asking OTHER BREEDERS for their exp.


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## Nieri

With consideration to this topic, I would like to ask for some advice in how I am best to obtain a puppy.

I've always had dogs. In my family home, dogs were around before I was. Living without dogs feels like there is a definite 'something' missing from life. I live with my partner and we are now in the position to get our own dog. We have two cats and five rats, so we thought a puppy or a young dog would be best so that our cats would be more comfortable and so pup would learn early that these were fellow pack members, not play-things.

We are not concerned about breed, our only stipulation is it would be a medium-larged sized dog as my partner is 6foot 4 and built like a tank. Having a small breed dog would make him feel like he was juggling priceless china plates constantly. We live in a two bedroom apartment on the second floor, and have a communal courtyard (shared by our three neighbours) out the back, and over the back wall there is a massive dog park.

I mention this detail because this is where we fell down when we went to enquire at the rescue centre. We are not eligible to adopt a puppy because our garden is not 'secure', as no other dogs can access the garden I take it that what they mean is that our garden is not 'private'. Our neighbours are fine with us getting a dog. Secure gardens are not required for older dogs unless something in their temperment suggests they require it - so says staff.

So this leaves us with the option of going to buy a puppy. Now the issue here is, we prefer cross-breeds - better yet we prefer mongrels and mutts. I understand that this is the breeding section of the forum, and I don't wish to step on anyones toes, but our experience of dogs as a whole is that mutts and mongrels tend to be healthier (fewer genetic nastys hiding in the mix) in a general sense because they are not in-bred. I will state however that I have had pure-bred golden retrievers and border collies, with little problems (bar one of the golden retrievers, who is absolutely clueless and doesn't even know how to pick up a toy, but she is a show breed - I suppose she just got the 'beautiful' genes in that mix :tongue_smilie: ). The draw to a mutt or mongrel is personal preference of ourselves, we were both brought up rurally. 

Now I don't particularly want to go to someone who's just banged to different dogs together and selling to try to make pennies without looking out for the welfare of the pup, nor do I want to buy a flashy breed when that wouldn't be my ideal.

What I had been looking at is farmers (actual farmers) and rural litters, who have some crosses and mutts available - largely because of the old-fashioned dog-husbandry idea of letting your bitch have one litter before spaying. I have seen some of these places, mum and dad are usually kept by same family or dad lives at the farm down the road. Dogs are healthy and shining, puppies are clean and well-socialised. 

Obviously I would do a quick check of health and temper, check how old they'd be before they left their dam, I'd socialise with mum and dad if possible to check their temperments.

I understand that these dogs won't have the health checks in their breeding as pure-bred KC registered pups will.

Is this plan of action so deplorable?


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## leashedForLife

Nieri said:


> ...we prefer cross-breeds - better yet, we prefer mongrels & mutts.
> 
> I understand that this is the breeding section of the forum, & don't wish to step on anyone's toes,
> but our experience of dogs as a whole is that mutts and mongrels tend to be healthier (fewer genetic nasties
> hiding in the mix) in a general sense because they are not in-bred.


 - according to Padgett-DVM in "heritable diseases in purebred dogs" [text], EVERY dog of whatever breed 
or mix in the USA carries an average of 5 deleterious genes; that's purebred, crossbred of known breeds, 
or random-bred whatsit found roaming stray - all of them carry an average of 5 'bad genes'.

- any crossbreed can carry any of the heritable issues found in either parent-breed, 
or can carry any heritable problem common to all dogs [food sensitivities, flea-bite dermatitis...], 
or any random k9-health issue [Cushing's, hypothyroid, elbow or hip problems, PRA...].

- Ergo, unless the breeder screens for the usual suspects in a breed or the breedS of a crossbreed, 
or screens BOTH parents of a random-bred litter, U won't have any idea what might be lurking.

Simply assuming that all non-purebred dogs are healthier is a logical error - they may not be inbred, 
or they may be; 2 mutts of opposite sex who look quite dissimilar could even be full siblings. Obviously, 
mating full-siblings or dam/son or sire/daughter, even when the parent is a mixed-breed or random-bred, 
will still greatly increase the risk of doubling a nasty recessive - & some nasties are multigene, such as hips 
& femurs forming a good structure, with moderate angles & a smooth ball-n-socket joint where pelvis & femur 
meet.

- Multigene outcomes are subject to many other selection pressures, not merely genes - 
pups born of parents who are both rated EXCELLENT for hips can develop DoG-awful hip dysplasia, 
all it takes is slick traction [hardwood or tile, etc], some overfeeding, rapid wt-gain & voila! - Lousy hips 
from great parent-stock. There are many other examples of such multigene expressions.

- *epigenetics* is another entire subject: Exposure to triggering events can cause littermates 
to develop problems, or sail thru life happily & healthily without them. Same genes, different 
environmental exposures.

in short, there are no guarantees that a random-bred or cross-bred pup won't develop health problems, 
structural problems, or have a shortened lifespan.

One plus:
DOGS WHO ARE AT LEAST 2-YO when first bred will add an average of 2-yrs to the lifespans of those pups.
No matter what the breed or mix, delaying breeding till 24-MO will add lifespan. Cheapest & easiest way 
of adding years to a dog's life, that i've heard of - again, courtesy of Dr Padgett, a k9-geneticist. :yesnod:


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## Nieri

I had no idea that U.S. dogs carry on average 5 bad genes. I assume since I am in the UK, that this figure would be the same or even worse for UK dogs?

I also understand the danger of two completely different looking dogs being litter mates as you said - especially in those sort of rural communities I was previously looking at.

However, from what you were saying with regards to two healthy EXCELLENT hip-scored parents having a pup that can have problems, despite the seeming genetic advantage, does that mean that pure-bred well-checked parents can still have a pup with problems?

So two 'unrelated' dogs of different breeds (or even mongrels), and two dogs of the same breed, providing that basic health checks have been done, have the same chance of having healthy puppies?

What are the common health checks for the parents of any breed? Is there a set list for all breeds?


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## rocco33

Nieri said:


> With consideration to this topic, I would like to ask for some advice in how I am best to obtain a puppy.
> 
> We are not concerned about breed, our only stipulation is it would be a medium-larged sized dog as my partner is 6foot 4 and built like a tank. Having a small breed dog would make him feel like he was juggling priceless china plates constantly. *We live in a two bedroom apartment on the second floor*, and have a communal courtyard (shared by our three neighbours) out the back, and over the back wall there is a massive dog park.
> 
> I mention this detail because this is where we fell down when we went to enquire at the rescue centre. We are not eligible to adopt a puppy because our garden is not 'secure', as no other dogs can access the garden I take it that what they mean is that our garden is not 'private'. Our neighbours are fine with us getting a dog. Secure gardens are not required for older dogs unless something in their temperment suggests they require it - so says staff.
> 
> So this leaves us with the option of going to buy a puppy. Now the issue here is, we prefer cross-breeds - better yet we prefer mongrels and mutts. I understand that this is the breeding section of the forum, and I don't wish to step on anyones toes, but our experience of dogs as a whole is that mutts and mongrels tend to be healthier (fewer genetic nastys hiding in the mix) in a general sense because they are not in-bred. I will state however that I have had pure-bred golden retrievers and border collies, with little problems (bar one of the golden retrievers, who is absolutely clueless and doesn't even know how to pick up a toy, but she is a show breed - I suppose she just got the 'beautiful' genes in that mix :tongue_smilie: ). The draw to a mutt or mongrel is personal preference of ourselves, we were both brought up rurally.
> 
> Now I don't particularly want to go to someone who's just banged to different dogs together and selling to try to make pennies without looking out for the welfare of the pup, nor do I want to buy a flashy breed when that wouldn't be my ideal.
> 
> *What I had been looking at is farmers (actual farmers) and rural litters, who have some crosses and mutts available *- largely because of the old-fashioned dog-husbandry idea of letting your bitch have one litter before spaying. I have seen some of these places, mum and dad are usually kept by same family or dad lives at the farm down the road. Dogs are healthy and shining, puppies are clean and well-socialised.
> 
> Obviously I would do a quick check of health and temper, check how old they'd be before they left their dam, I'd socialise with mum and dad if possible to check their temperments.
> 
> I understand that these dogs won't have the health checks in their breeding as pure-bred KC registered pups will.
> 
> Is this plan of action so deplorable?


My main concern would be you wanting a medium large breed, from working lines (which they are likely to be) while living in a second floor flat - not only will space be limited, but that's a lot of stairs that a young dog ill have to go up and down several times a day - not great for their joints. Do you work? If so, what hours?


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## Nieri

My apologies, I should have been a bit more specific with regards to my situation there, I can understand that this could be a worry.

I'm actually a student, I have 4-6 hours of scheduled classes a week. In my final year of a BA Hons. My partner works evenings, 4-5 hours a night, and owns his own company. I currently work 4 hours Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri in the evening but the situation we find ourselves in is that I can quit my job to be a full time 'stay-at-home-mum' :001_smile: In the next few years, when I'm looking at maybe a full time job, our hours will be a trade off. Me working nine-to-five ish, him still working the evenings. This arrangement has worked for us before. 

I understand the issue of the stairs, specially with a puppy's soft bones. I've raised puppies in a flat before, the solution being - when they're so small - is to carry them outside at first until they're older and can carry themselves outside. With my bear of a man, and my being used to the 4am puppy-weight lifting session, I don't forsee this being too much of an issue. Our working hours were the main issue before, but this, like I have described above is not going to be an issue anymore.

When I say medium-large, I'm meaning lab or collie size-weight. I only put 'large' in there, to make sure I covered larger members of these breeds. I understand a high-energy collie may not be ideal, I've had a collie when I was younger in a flat and his energy was managed by flyball and agility. So I would be looking for a medium-energy dog. A low energy dog may not be ideal as we are scout leaders, we hike and camp away regularly and I would like a dog that could keep up.

Please, do challenge these thoughts, and my previous ideas. If I wasn't a concerned prospective-owner, I wouldn't have came to the site. I won't take any offense to any objections or challenges offered in the spirit of looking out for the well-being of any possible puppy. If I can't offer an acceptable answer to any challenges, I'll have to rethink our decision or our expectations. Previously, my issue was selecting a puppy that was ideal for ourselves as when I've owned dogs in the past, the purchasing of the puppy was made by my parents, although I was present. I want to make the right choice with respect to any future dog, I just felt that the money that was being spent on a pedigree isn't necessarily for health checks and temperment, it's for rarity, colour and a pretty shape and form. I don't really care what the dog looks like, I care for health and temperment. Please, again I hope I'm not offending anyone, like I've said previously I've had pure-bred dogs and they've all been lovely. But the dog I've owned with the sweetest temper, the longest health, and the most intelligence (including my collie who was bright as a button) was a complete Heinz 57, gosh knows what was in her genetic mix - I can only guess there was a wee bit of staffy and some sort of terrier in her somewhere. The second was a lab ret x, his show mummy was caught by a show lab from a couple of miles away that did a mad escape to get to her. Anyway, I digress... please anymore input would be greatly appreciated.


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## swarthy

Contrary to popular belief - crosses can be just as prone to health problems as their pedigree counterparts - often moreso by the very nature of the people who breed them.

There are some good breeders of crosses - but at the present time, they are still almost as rare as hens teeth.

If buying a first generation cross-breed, the recommendations would be exactly the same as for buying a pedigree, both parents should have the recommeded health-tests for their breed.

Once you go past a first generation cross - then the parents should have ALL health-tests relevant to their crosses - i.e. by bringing two dogs together, the progeny face the risk of all the health problems of their originating breeds - so unless the breeds concerned have identical health problems - you are looking at far greater research and and a larger range of potential health issues moreso if both breeds have a fair number of recessive conditions - as the minute you get past a first generation cross - you potentially have matching genes for these conditions unless both parents have been tested.

==========================

Having said all the above - I personally wouldn't sell a Lab pup to someone living in a 2nd floor apartment particularly if there is no lift.

My pups aren't allowed to do stairs unless completely unavoidable for the first 12 months and to this effect, I have a stair-gate in place.

Carrying an 8 week old Lab puppy downstairs would be relatively easy - carrying a 12 week old Lab pup up and down stairs would be hard going - and by 6 months, you are looking at a full size Labrador who may still might not be housetrained.

Dogs in apartments can work as my boss often reminds me (she lives in a first floor apartment and has a Westie - a dog that even at 9 years old can still be carried up and down stairs if needs be - but even then - pups living in apartments are likely to be more challenging to housetrain than for those living on the ground floor of a house with instant access to a garden.

Carrying a pup mid wee or poo outside to finish toileting will never be a quick process, therefore probably taking far longer for the pup to make the correct association that toileting indoors is not what you want from them.

Irrespective of your access to a garden and whether the other tenants agree (and tenants can change) - personally, I would be looking at a much smaller breed than something like a Lab. 

As for height - my friends 6ft 2" football playing / football coach and highly entertaining Scottish husband walks her 2 bichons daily - it certainly hasn't impacted on his masculinity.

When my 6ft 2" OH was married he had a Westie which he was proud to walk - in fact, it took a lot of convincing him to get him go Labrador size as he wasn't keen on large dogs - but he succumbed and is brilliant with them - but never felt any threat to his masculinity.

His ex-wife now has a pom and her even taller OH is proud to take it out.


----------



## Brainless

deb53 said:


> Popping by to say "with you all the way" here
> 
> Good thread
> 
> xx


Excellent original post, nothing much to add, other than banging my head against a brick wall when I offer advice to would be puppy buyers I meet who still buy the first or cheapest puppy.


----------



## dexter

Brainless said:


> Excellent original post, nothing much to add, other than banging my head against a brick wall when I offer advice to would be puppy buyers I meet who still buy the first or cheapest puppy.


we all been there


----------



## RatsnCatnKids

I have posted elsewhere in threads about advice on finding a puppy. This is the first time we shall have had a dog and are putting a lot of thought into it to ensure it's a positive exoerience for the dog and for us.
I fully understand the importance of finding a reputable breeder and know that the KC have an 'assured breeder' scheme. However, I have also read that this doesn't necessarily mean these are the only good breeders. I am wondering how you can access other good breeders? I have seen a website called "Champdogs" which appears to list 'proper' breeders.
Is it just a case of me phoning and 'interviewing' breeders to ensure they follow the guidelines regarding health checks, vet checks, allowing us to visit and see the pups with mum etc or should I just use the assured breeders? 
Another thing I don't really understand is what the KC registration means? We want a dog as a family pet and not for breeding from but still, for reasons mentioned elsewhere, should like a pedigree puppy rather than a rescue dog.


----------



## nutty

RatsnCatnKids said:


> I have posted elsewhere in threads about advice on finding a puppy. This is the first time we shall have had a dog and are putting a lot of thought into it to ensure it's a positive exoerience for the dog and for us.
> I fully understand the importance of finding a reputable breeder and know that the KC have an 'assured breeder' scheme. However, I have also read that this doesn't necessarily mean these are the only good breeders. I am wondering how you can access other good breeders? I have seen a website called "Champdogs" which appears to list 'proper' breeders.
> Is it just a case of me phoning and 'interviewing' breeders to ensure they follow the guidelines regarding health checks, vet checks, allowing us to visit and see the pups with mum etc or should I just use the assured breeders?
> Another thing I don't really understand is what the KC registration means? We want a dog as a family pet and not for breeding from but still, for reasons mentioned elsewhere, should like a pedigree puppy rather than a rescue dog.


How about a pedigree rescue?


----------



## RatsnCatnKids

I have been keeping an eye on rescue centres in our region but there don't seem to be many small dogs availabe, apart from Jack Russell terriers and JRT crosses and I don't want a terrier. I'm also concerned that we wouldn't really know the background and, being first time owners, we have no experience. The other thing is that my daughter (now nearly 11, then about 5) was bitten (fortunately just grazed the skin) on the cheek by a dog on a beach once and we are both keen to have a puppy so we can be confident (as far as poss!) that we and it bond well. That's also why training the puppy properly is essential so I shall go to puppy training classes and have already bought the "Perfect Puppy" book so I can read up and be sure I feel we, as a family, can commit to the consistency we need to give the puppy.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

RatsnCatnKids said:


> I have posted elsewhere in threads about advice on finding a puppy. This is the first time we shall have had a dog and are putting a lot of thought into it to ensure it's a positive exoerience for the dog and for us.
> I fully understand the importance of finding a reputable breeder and know that the KC have an 'assured breeder' scheme. However, I have also read that this doesn't necessarily mean these are the only good breeders. I am wondering how you can access other good breeders? I have seen a website called "Champdogs" which appears to list 'proper' breeders.
> Is it just a case of me phoning and 'interviewing' breeders to ensure they follow the guidelines regarding health checks, vet checks, allowing us to visit and see the pups with mum etc or should I just use the assured breeders?
> Another thing I don't really understand is what the KC registration means? We want a dog as a family pet and not for breeding from but still, for reasons mentioned elsewhere, should like a pedigree puppy rather than a rescue dog.


Any list of breeders will have good and bad, you need to assess how the breeder goes about breeding dogs, and then make your own mind up. Do they health test, do they care about temperament, conformation, ability, how many breeds do they have, how many litters etc? Some people will tell you what you want to hear, but often the evidence is there to tell you that what they're claiming doesn't add up.

KC registration isn't just so you can breed, it tells you that you have bought a dog from two KC registered parents of the same breed, and that gives you a lot of information about your pup. The KC is simply a registration body, that holds information about the recognised breeds in the UK on their systems, it isn't a guarantee, it's simply data about dogs, which you don't get if you buy one that isn't KC registered, either because the parents aren't, or pups can't be, or it's a cross bred dog, it's impossible in the vast majority of those instances to know where your pup has come from, and trace their ancestry.

If you approach a breeder with a good list of questions and interview them I'm sure that they would welcome speaking to you, the majority of enquiries are simply about price, availability, sex and colour, in varying orders. There will be the occasional person who believes they are too good to answer questions, but are generally good breeders, but a lot will find it refresing to come across anyone who has done their research well before getting in touch with them.

Good luck


----------



## leashedForLife

RatsnCatnKids said:


> I have been keeping an eye on *rescue centres in our region*, but there don't seem to be many
> small dogs available, apart from [JRTs] & JRT-crosses, & I don't want a terrier.


What country / city do U live in or near?

Shelters are not the sole source, there are also breed-specific rescues that are independent NGOs
[non-profits which are registered].

Aside from breed-rescue, there is always the option to contact breeders or show-handlers who need to 
retire a young adult, or find a home for an older pup who is not growing-up to fulfill their early promise; 
a less-than-perfect bite, a coat-texture that changes, etc, can mean the dog is not perfect for the show-ring, 
but doesn't affect their potential as a pet. 

if we knew where U are, we could make specific recommendations of where to look or whom to see.



RatsnCatnKids said:


> I'm also concerned... we wouldn't... know the [dog's] background...


A young dog over 6-MO, preferably 9 to 12-MO & already desexed, is a known quantity, in many ways;
their temp, behavior, size, coat, color, etc, are already assessable.

An infant-pup, OTOH, is a package of possibilities - & requires MASSIVE input to be reared properly.


RatsnCatnKids said:


> ...being first time owners, we have no experience.


i would never suggest that folks who have never lived with a dog OF THEIR OWN - not their parents' 
dog when they were children, not a housemate's or girlfriend's / boyfriend's dog, but their own! - 
buy or adopt a puppy, as their first dog. 

i know U want a "blank slate" - there is no such thing. Even an 8-WO pup is the sum of their genes, 
their breeder's care, their experiences from birth to 8-WO in that first home, their dam's & sire's temps, 
their DAM's own behavior as a role-model for her pups, & so on.

i'd recommend a 9-MO or preferably 12-MO dog [or older] who has lived with children, has a nice friendly 
disposition, some basic manners, etc. - from a shelter, from a breed-rescue, or direct from a breeder 
or handler; a retiring show-dog of 18-MO to 3-YO, a breeding dog who's 3 or 4 [or younger], a teen-dog 
who comes into breed-rescue after a divorce or job-loss --- there are many possibilities.

A puppy is a big project; living with an adult or teen-dog who's past the infant & puberty stage is a better 
option for a novice family or novice owner, IME & IMO. Just because dogs are everywhere doesn't mean that 
they are simple or easy pets; they're not, & rearing them is the hardest part.


----------



## luvmydogs

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Any list of breeders will have good and bad, you need to assess how the breeder goes about breeding dogs, and then make your own mind up. Do they health test, do they care about temperament, conformation, ability, how many breeds do they have, how many litters etc? Some people will tell you what you want to hear, but often the evidence is there to tell you that what they're claiming doesn't add up.
> 
> KC registration isn't just so you can breed, it tells you that you have bought a dog from two KC registered parents of the same breed, and that gives you a lot of information about your pup. The KC is simply a registration body, that holds information about the recognised breeds in the UK on their systems, it isn't a guarantee, it's simply data about dogs, which you don't get if you buy one that isn't KC registered, either because the parents aren't, or pups can't be, or it's a cross bred dog, it's impossible in the vast majority of those instances to know where your pup has come from, and trace their ancestry.
> 
> If you approach a breeder with a good list of questions and interview them I'm sure that they would welcome speaking to you, the majority of enquiries are simply about price, availability, sex and colour, in varying orders. There will be the occasional person who believes they are too good to answer questions, but are generally good breeders, but a lot will find it refresing to come across anyone who has done their research well before getting in touch with them.
> 
> Good luck


Great post - however this thread makes me realise that breeders like me, who do everything ethically, often get overlooked for less ethical breeders who happen to be recognised by the UK Kennel Club. My breed is too rare to be recognised - but that doesn't mean we are not good breeders. Asking and listening to the breeder is SO important.


----------



## RatsnCatnKids

> or direct from a breeder
> or handler; a retiring show-dog of 18-MO to 3-YO, a breeding dog who's 3 or 4 [or younger]


That is definitely something we would consider as it would mean we knew the dog's "history". What I want to avoid is taking on a stray or abandoned animal with unknown history and possible behavioural issues. We are in Oxfordshire. We won't be in a position to have a dog until after our summer holiday as we obviously wouldn't want to put it in kennels in the first few months.

Edit to say that we are looking for a coton de tulear or a maltese.


----------



## leashedForLife

RatsnCatnKids said:


> That is definitely something we'd consider, as it would mean we knew the dog's "history".
> ...I want to avoid... a stray or abandoned animal with unknown history and possible behavioural issues.
> 
> We're in Oxfordshire. We won't be in a position to have a dog until after our summer holiday,
> as we obviously wouldn't want to put it in kennels in the first few months.
> 
> ...we are looking for a coton de tulear or a maltese.


Home - cdtclubuk.org
The Coton Club is having their annual general-meeting on the 13th April.

Maltese Club - Founded 1934

U can contact breeders in both clubs directly, to ask if they know of anyone with a retired bitch 
or stud to place, or a pup who's disappointed the breeder as they grew-out.

there are also national & regional breed-rescues.


----------



## leashedForLife

Maltese Club Welfare and Rescue 
Mrs V Blore, Aintree, Liverpool. Tel: 0151 525 6470
Carol Hemsley, Chobham, Surrey. Tel: 01276 857786



DogPages does not list rescues for the Coton breed.


----------



## hball

flufffluff39 said:


> Totally agree but some people feel sorry for the pup thats cowering in the corner with runny eyes n nose!!! Thats what it is really people want to help but we can't help them all and thats what you have to tell puppy buyers!! Leave that one there!! No matter how much it pains you to do it


i understand what your saying i do! but i dont think i could walk away from a sick helpless pup i know that i could help. but i would be damn sure i would call animal welfare and get them shut down!


----------



## hball

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why three times? Are you planning to keep a pup back from each litter at all? Apologies as I'm not trying to sound critical, but lots of dogs have good lines, but that doesn't equate to a reason for breeding. It can make up part of a reason, but there should be more to it than that, as an example, showing and/or working, trying to achieve something with better conformation, brilliant temperament, good working ability etc.
> 
> The term back yard breeder, I suppose is coined to describe someone who just decides to breed from the dog(s) to try and make money, so they will cut corners and possibly use their dog more times than they should, because they can sell the pups easily. It probably comes from the 'not in my back yard' type of phrase, but in this case, unfortunately it does go on, and far too often.


 my question is why is it that the only good reason to bread is to show /work etc. i don't bread my dogs and all but 1 is pure blooded and all were rescues. my pug was doped off here, my papered vet checked intact bitch an american bulldog i got free because the owner didn't have time for her. and my 4 lb chi was in a pound! so when i hear the comment before that mix breeds are given up more than pure blood is not true. i would say its @ the same. why is there so many rescues for pure blood dogs. by no means am i for the shi$$y byb. but tbh there is nothing wrong with a "mutt" had them growing up lived long happy healthy life some of the best dogs i have ever had. not trying to start anything but i get mad when people say that a papered dog is better than a non papered one sorry.


----------



## leashedForLife

hball said:


> ...why is it that the only good reason to [breed] is to show [dogs in breed competition,
> or for working dogs]?


because those 2 purposes are the primary reasons that *ethical breeders*, breed.

UNethical breeders are in it for money; They breed the current designer-cross, long-time pet mixes 
[Cock-a-poo from the 1950s, anyone?], the "teacup" something, the "Giant" something, etc.
They breed "rare" & charge extra - blue Pits, blue Dobes, merle Chis [an outcross], etc.

ethical breeders want *predictable:* size, skill set, coat, temp, structure, flaws.

UNethical breeders want novelty & sale-ability: Does the pup have appealing markings, cute face, color,
chrome [white blaze / bib / legs...], eye appeal, soft coat / other?...

*3rd group:*
idiots breed for lots of lousy reasons: "for the kids", thinking it will 'settle' their bitch, who knows? 
They aren't ethical, but they have motives other than profit - altho those motives don't justify a litter.
:thumbdown:


hball said:


> i don't [breed] my dogs, all but 1 [of my dogs] is purebred, & all 4 were rescues.
> 
> my Pug was [dropped?] off here,
> my [registered], vet-checked, *intact bitch*, an American Bulldog, i got free -the owner [had no] time for her.
> my 4# Chi was in a [shelter]!


just an aside, but why is the Am-Bull intact? 
How old is she?

desex before her first-estrus eliminates the risk of mammary cancer almost to nil - more than 99.99%.

the longer she's intact, & the more heats she goes thru, the faster her risk of mammary & other estrogenic 
cancers, rises; 'breast cancer' in female-dogs is over 4x as common as it is in female-humans.

2nd, U said all but one dog is 'purebred' - are the Chi & Pug registered? 
if not, U can say that they're 'type', but not state that they are purebred - it's not documented. 
U could, in the USA, register them as ILP / indefinite listing privilege, with the AKC or UKC; 
they can't be bred to produce registered pups, but could compete in activities just as purebreds do 
[agility, etc ] - anything but the breed-ring.

mixed [cross or random] breeds can also compete in various activities: dog sports are competency, 
by & large. That said, if U want to compete in a herding trial, don't show up with a pit-cross, :lol: - 
there are limits, even tho a team of Std Poodles has raced in the Iditarod already. :thumbup: 


hball said:


> ...when i hear the comment... that mixed-breeds are given up more [often] than purebred,
> [IMO] it's not true. i'd say it's [just as common].


When i was a kid, purebreds were rare & mostly well-off ppl owned them. Cross-bred or random-bred
were much-more common, & "unfancy" breeds were more likely to belong to blue-collar folks - hounds, 
terrier-mixes, hunting breeds, & so on.

Today, purebreds are far-more common than before - but about 60% of the shelter-popn in the USA 
is pit-types [no papers, but type] & pit-mixes: Lab-x, Boxer-x, whatever.

Over the years, dogs have gotten bigger, too; in the 1960s, the average pet-dog weighed about 30#;
terriers & their mixes were common. Shih-Tzu & other coated breeds were rare; TOYS were very rare.

Today, the average pet-dog is Lab-sized [may not BE a Lab, but weighs about 60#], & toys are common - 
not as common as Labs, but far-more than 50-years ago.

LA, Calif, sees a huge glut of discarded toy-breeds in their shelters; trends & fads. :nonod: UNethical breeders
are the supply-line for these fashions in dogs. [LA now 'exports' toy-dogs to other out-of-state shelters, 
where they are in demand - so that they don't needlessly kill healthy young dogs whose only fault is local
low-demand / a saturated market].

RESEARCH:
studies have shown many times that what we INVEST in a pet, influences how we value that pet;

ppl who buy a purebred pup & spend a significant amount for a registered pup, no matter the quality 
[petshop puppy-mill overpriced poor-quality, BYB registered mediocre quality, ethical breeder with 
gene-screened sire & dam & excellent quality...] will be LESS likely to give that dog up, even with some 
serious reason to do so [chronic health issues, human injury / lost job / other personal reason, major 
problem-behavior in the dog, ____ ].

if the pup was *given away* or very cheap, the owner is less-likely to persist in keeping that pup, 
all else being equal: the attachment is more easily broken. Shelter-adoptees, parking-lot puppies, the pup 
from the neighbor's 'accidental' litter, etc, are more likely to be given away, surrendered to a shelter or 
rescue, or re-homed [to friends, relatives, neighbors or total strangers via an ad].


hball said:


> why are there so many rescues for purebred dogs?


b/c humans have favorites - & they 'adopt' their favorite breed as a charitable action.

they love THEIR [BC, Chi, Rott, Setter, ___ ], & want to help other dogs of that breed.

random-breds still have their own rescues - there are LOADS of dog-rescues in the USA that aren't 
breed-specific, but take all dogs -- or who specialize: senior dogs, bully-breeds, giant-breeds, etc. 


hball said:


> by no means am i for the shi$$y BYB. But... there's nothing wrong with a "mutt", we had them [when
> i was a child; they] lived long, happy, healthy lives, [& were] some of the best dogs i've ever had.
> 
> not trying to start anything, but i get mad when ppl say a purebred dog is better than [an unregistered dog],
> sorry.


there are times when a purebred IS better than any random-bred: When U want a *predictable type*, 
or a *specific skill-set*. If i want a herding dog, i'm not going to adopt a shelter mutt & hope that dog can 
learn to move sheep, cut out a specific individual, heel cattle, chase geese away from a golf-course, etc.

if i want an SD for a handicapped person, i can choose any dog whose size, coat, temp, etc, plus their 
physical abilities & structure, are fit for the job. Breed doesn't matter; competency does.

if i just want a loving pet, i can choose my color, size, coat, temp, activity level, face-shape... 
anything, breed, cross-breed, or unknown blend.

if i want an arson-dog, any dog with a good NOSE is great - but if that dog also needs to take down 
possible criminals [many cop-k9s must be dual use], i can't use a Bloodhound; they won't barrel 
after a suspected burglar or robber who's fleeing, & bite hard enuf to take the person down.

BTW, *mixed-breeds can have virtually any illness known to a pure breed*; the geneticist Padgett quoted 
statistics which indicate that EVERY dog in the USA, no matter what breed or mix, carries an average of 5 
"bad" / heritable genes; the trick when we breed is not to double-up on them, which requires that we know 
WHAT our dog carries as genes: are they a carrier of X, or clear? Will this dog be affected, or not?...

that means tests, which aren't cheap; very few owners of cross-bred or random-bred dogs are willing 
to invest in testing their dog, both M & F, before they breed for a litter.

Structure is heritable; TEMP is *very* heritable. Fearful or shy dogs should never, ever be bred - 
no matter how perfect, beautiful, beloved. :nonod: Sociability & stranger-distrust are also highly heritable - 
guard-breeds are paranoid adults, but start as the same trusting, affectionate pups as any other type.

we must choose carefully to shape the dogs we want - no matter what breed, cross, or random-genes.


----------



## hball

i dont know how to quote a part of a post  sorry i understand the fact of needing a certain breed for work or show. my bitch is intact as i was going to breed her but decided not to. am waiting on her appt to get her fixed  i know the risk of not having her done.
yes she the pug and chi all papered. i have no interest in showing them. My chi would have been awesome! just saying, i have them not for any reason but that i love them. I just think it sounded that from the breeders other dogs are no good.... as they r mixed. i hope that is not the case .


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

hball said:


> i dont know how to quote a part of a post  sorry i understand the fact of needing a certain breed for work or show. my bitch is intact as i was going to breed her but decided not to. am waiting on her appt to get her fixed  i know the risk of not having her done.
> yes she the pug and chi all papered. i have no interest in showing them. My chi would have been awesome! just saying, i have them not for any reason but that i love them. I just think it sounded that from the breeders other dogs are no good.... as they r mixed. i hope that is not the case .


The problem is, how do you know that the dogs your girl is from are of good *quality*? And how do you know she's inherited good qualities?

There are four main reasons for breeding for me, health, temperament, conformation, and ability. The latter is not always something you can take into account, but should be there for working breeds, such as gundogs.


----------



## leashedForLife

hball said:


> i dont know how to quote a part of a post


hit QUOTE [button].

Decide what parts U want to reply to; *to move a line down the page*, put the cursor 
where U want to start that next line, click SHIFT & while holding it, click RETURN / Enter.

*to erase parts U don't want*, put the cursor at the beginning of the section U want to delete; 
highlight [click & sweep the cursor across the page] - the highlighted parts turn blue.
Click DELETE - the blue parts disappear.

*to break the whole post into pieces* & reply to each piece [or skip bits]:
Copy & past [/quote] anywhere U want to "end" a quoted segment. Reply in the part after [/quote].

Don't forget to insert


hball... said:


> where U want the next quoted segment to begin -
> just copy & paste. Click PREVIEW to see how U're doing, to see if U've made a mistake.
> 
> 
> hball said:
> 
> 
> 
> i understand... needing a certain breed for work or show.
> 
> 
> 
> good! :thumbup1:
> 
> 
> hball said:
> 
> 
> 
> my bitch is intact, as i was going to breed her, but decided not to.
> I'm waiting on her appt
> to get her fixed  i know the risk of not having her done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> excellent - glad to hear it.
> 
> 
> hball said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...she, the pug & chi are all [registered]. i have no interest in showing them.
> My chi would have been awesome!
> just saying, i have them... for [no] reason but that i love them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> shows can be fun - so can dog-sports. Rally-O is GREAT, i think - lots of fun, happy activity,
> any breed or mix, speed isn't crucial.
> 
> 
> hball said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just think it sounded [as if] breeders [think non-purebred] dogs are no good...
> as they're mixed [or cross] bred. i hope that's not the case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i don't think it is, generally speaking - there ARE breeders who think that purebreds are 'better',
> but heck, some owners think that everyone should have a Turkey Hound, which is ludicrous -
> dogs are widely varied b/c human preferences are wildly assorted.
Click to expand...


----------



## hball

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The problem is, how do you know that the dogs your girl is from are of good *quality*? And how do you know she's inherited good qualities?
> 
> There are four main reasons for breeding for me, health, temperament, conformation, and ability. The latter is not always something you can take into account, but should be there for working breeds, such as gundogs.


I know because I know the breeder and about the line. Had my.girl tested..... etc and good exp of her breed.
BUT I am NOT breeding her. If something happened to her I would be lost! And just not worth it for me .. shes like my child


----------



## hball

shows can be fun - so can dog-sports. Rally-O is GREAT, i think - lots of fun, happy activity, 
any breed or mix, speed isn't crucial.
I would think about this with my American bulldog. She is fast! And very smart!
i don't think it is, generally speaking - there ARE breeders who think that purebreds are 'better', 
but heck, some owners think that everyone should have a Turkey Hound, which is ludicrous - 
dogs are widely varied b/c human preferences are wildly assorted. [/QUOTE]


----------



## hball

The only bad habit she has is.... she loves to eat my shoes!!!! 3 pairs of flip flops and 2 pairs of Nikes


----------



## leashedForLife

hball said:


> [Her] only bad habit... she loves to eat my shoes! 3 pairs of flip-flops & 2 pairs of Nikes.


_closets_ are Ur friends. :thumbsup: Or shelves... :laugh:


----------



## hball

Soooo true!


----------



## hball

leashedForLife said:


> _closets_ are Ur friends. :thumbsup: Or shelves... :laugh:


She was able to go in my bedroom when we left unroll I came home to my pillow and blanket all over the house:thumbdown:


----------



## ruwise

Thanks for this thread. As somebody who is looking to buy a puppy I am very appreciative of it. I have already cancelled an appointment to view some pups because I just had a bad feeling about them. They took reservations and deposits off people based on photos taken at 2 weeks old. I refused to do this and said I wanted to meet them, see the parents and pick a pup based on personality and not just looks. 

I just want a pet but I want to know that it is a pup that has been looked after and treated well. It's going to be the first dog I've had as an adult and I have lots of friends who have young kids so I think it is important that I know that it's come from a good breeder, is healthy and has not been mistreated in any way. I've been awake at night worrying about this. I take my responsibility very seriously. I just wish there weren't so many dodgy breeders out there. How anyone can sleep at night if they are mistreating animals I just do not know. When I had my concerns about the breeder I had been in contact it kept me awake at night. Even now I wonder if I have any way od checking that the dogs are all ok and are being treated ok.


----------



## MerlinsMum

ruwise said:


> T I refused to do this and said I wanted to meet them, see the parents and pick a pup based on personality and not just looks.


The very best breeders will match the pup's personality to YOU.... and this means breeders who have owned the breed for many years, and understand their lines - and who also take time to interview you, to find out what pup in their litters will fit in the best.

That doesn't happen with backyard/pet home breeders who may be having a litter "just because" from their beloved pet - and also won't be an option from the breeders who churn out puppies in great numbers all year round.

It's very refreshing to hear from someone who understands about matching the right puppy to the right home. Far too often people think they are getting some kind of a bonus to have "pick of the litter" when in fact they could easily end up with the wrong puppy that way. Breeders who KNOW their lines and their puppies will be much better placed to match the right personality to your needs.


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## ruwise

I was actually concerned it might be a puppy farm the first question I was asked (all by e-mail) was what colour I preferred. I volunteered some personal information to demonstrate I was a suitable pet owner but not convinced I would have been asked and it looks like they had about 5 or 6 litters of pups at different stages of development. I just didn't think they could possibly be socialised well enough. I actually tweeted CARIAD to ask what constituted a puppy farm but never heard back. 

They admitted that they often had no contact with the people buying their pups until they came to pick them up. The whole thing made me so uneasy. I just can't believe people are willing to pay for a dog they haven't even met on the back of a photograph of a pup that hasn't even opened it's eyes yet. I'm still worrying about the poor pups. I just hope they end up with good homes but if they do it will be more luck than judgement on the breeders part.


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## DecantPet

So, you said that we should be careful with breeders "selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices". What is wrong with this?


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## Meezey

DecantPet said:


> So, you said that we should be careful with breeders "selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices". What is wrong with this?


Because with different colours they are usually breed just for colour ( with very little regard for anything else) and are sold for stupid money based on a "rare" colour, such as blue staffs and Frenchies.. Male and Females there should be no difference in price, those that do charge a difference usually say it's because of being able to make money from a bitch, why would you pay more for the pups when they would have all received the same care and upbringing?


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## rocco33

DecantPet said:


> So, you said that we should be careful with breeders "selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices". What is wrong with this?


Because it is purely profit driven, there is no other reason for charging different prices for different sexes or colours. They all cost the same to raise. Why would a female puppy in a litter cost more to raise than a male. And why would a yellow cost more that it's black sibling?


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## Natalie Strudwick

Well, first of all the puppy's buyer must be know all the responsibilities he has to take when getting a puppy. He must be able to provide the shots necessary for the pups and those other health tests.


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## tcmoutlook

What can you do as a buyer if the breeder says you need to microchip the puppy yourself. The breeder says this was the opinion of the vet as there are so many puppy farms around. Is this suspicious?


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## 8tansox

It is the breeders responsibility to microchip their puppies, not the buyers.


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## tcmoutlook

8tansox said:


> It is the breeders responsibility to microchip their puppies, not the buyers.


I feel uneasy buying this puppy now. It's our first dog aswell. Do you think it's suspicious? I thought all puppies needed to be chipped by the breeder


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## Rafa

It is the responsibility of the Breeder to microchip the pups.

What have puppy farms got to do with it?


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## tcmoutlook

Sweety said:


> It is the responsibility of the Breeder to microchip the pups.
> 
> What have puppy farms got to do with it?


I have no idea. I'm need to per care and don't understand why someone wouldn't chip the puppy when it's a legal requirement. I'm worry things are suspicious.


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## cows573

I would refer to the first post on this thread...

Follow your gut! If you are uneasy, don't walk away but Run!!!


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## Biffo

There are some circumstances in which a vet will advise not Microchipping and will issue an exemption certificate, but I think this is very unusual, and obviously the puppy seller would have the exemption certificate. This link is to the BVA page.
https://www.bva.co.uk/News-campaigns-and-policy/Policy/Companion-animals/Microchipping/#vet

Microchipping is a very easy quick procedure, and it's implanted much like an injection. I would be questioning why the breeder hasn't had it done. If they haven't had this done have they had the puppies vaccinated? Checked by a vet? Has mum been well looked after, properly fed and wormed during pregnancy? It would make me walk away. Unless of course they have a vet issued exemption certificate, in which case it could be legitimate.


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## Daisy the Great Dane

I agree with everything!


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## Alpha vs beta

A very good representation of what everyone needs to buy a dog!


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## Miss Karen

Can anyone help??
My daughter bought a Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier 5mths ago, And the breeder WONT give give her the dogs papers she paid over £500 for the dog
What can she do... Please help ….. Many Thanks


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## R Carter

swarthy said:


> We see many posts about breeders and their responsibilities, but a few posts of late have made me think more about the puppy buyers responsibilities.
> 
> If someone wants to buy a pedigree pup - PLEASE do your research - the internet offers a wealth of information these days on essential and recommended tests.
> 
> It is - I understand - very difficult to walk away from a litter - so call ahead and ensure that as an absolute minimum, the recommended health tests have been done, if they haven't don't go.
> 
> Stories such as "oh dad has been hipscored" and "mum is healthy so we didn't bother" can hide much more sinister facts, like - we took mum for hipscoring, but the plates were horrendous so we didn't submit them and decided to play the role of the 'naive breeder' instead.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder adding a premium for KC regstration - it costs just *TWELVE pounds *to register a pup, and is probably the cheapest element of the whole breeding process.
> 
> =============================
> 
> If you get the information you require when you phone and then go and visit the litter - please ensure you
> 
> * *see proof of all health tests discussed* (part of your research to know what should be done beforehand)
> 
> * ask the breeder lots of questions - a good breeder will be happy to answer any queries you have
> 
> * expect to be asked just as many questions as you have asked yourself. The breeder should be just as concerned that you are the right home for their pup as you are that they are a good breeder!
> 
> =============================
> 
> If you want a cross breed or you are truly not concerned about the background of the pup - then your first port of call should be rescue. I appreciate that rescues aren't for everyone, after two years of trawling the rescues for a dog, we realised that my daughter's fear of grown dogs wasn't going to go away any time soon, (now she isn't afraid of any dog - good job when I have 6 of them )
> 
> ========================
> 
> All too often I hear people say, someone has to give these pups a home - and yes, I understand it isn't their fault they've been put on this earth, but for every breeder who had to give their pups away to rescue because they cannot find homes, will be one more breeder who will think twice before they do it again - and then these pups can be found homes responsibly.
> 
> I understand this will put more pressure on rescues initially, but long term, it just MIGHT help reduce the pressure.
> 
> A large percentage of people who buy deliberate cross-breeds and dogs from un health tested parents, give them away at the first sign of trouble - because such breeders are unlikely to have the courage of their convictions to accept that an owner is unsuitable for one of their pups - all they want to do is sell them
> 
> =====================
> 
> We hear a lot of talk about stopping Back yard Breeders and Puppy Farmers - but people don't seem to understand that the only person who can do something about it is *YOU* the puppy buying public -by doing your research and having the courage to say no.
> 
> A breeder that health tests doesn't make them good - if you are unhappy with ANY element of the litter or their environment - WALK AWAY.


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## Lurcherlad

Is it still normal practice to bring a pup home at 8 weeks old?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies

Lurcherlad said:


> Is it still normal practice to bring a pup home at 8 weeks old?


Yes. As far as I'm concerned. Between 7 and 9 weeks of age - optimum 8 weeks 

J


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## Rafa

I agree.

8 weeks is the ideal, but I have let pups go at 7 weeks to knowledgeable homes.


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## Lurcherlad

OK thanks.


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## Guest

Lurcherlad said:


> Is it still normal practice to bring a pup home at 8 weeks old?


Puppy Culture (Jane Killion) recommends 10 weeks because of fear stages.


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## Freyja

It depends on the breed chihuahuas if theey have been bred by a reputable breeder would not leave until the are 10 - 12 weeks. The breed club recomends 12 weeks


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## Firedog

Not very happy at the moment. My daughter just bought a puppy, its a little thin but not overly but I was pretty peed off to find that the breeder not only had not wormed the litter but they weren't micro chipped either. My daughter said she saved the pup but after finding out she paid £100 I told her that she had just encouraged them and give it six months and the bitch would be pregnant again. Some people make me mad. Nine puppies in that litter, £900 for doing practically nothing. Puppy has now had vaccinations and microchip.


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## Jean Francis

flufffluff39 said:


> Totally agree


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## Marcel909

Awesome thread.Thanks


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## zoe88

swarthy said:


> We see many posts about breeders and their responsibilities, but a few posts of late have made me think more about the puppy buyers responsibilities.
> 
> If someone wants to buy a pedigree pup - PLEASE do your research - the internet offers a wealth of information these days on essential and recommended tests.
> 
> It is - I understand - very difficult to walk away from a litter - so call ahead and ensure that as an absolute minimum, the recommended health tests have been done, if they haven't don't go.
> 
> Stories such as "oh dad has been hipscored" and "mum is healthy so we didn't bother" can hide much more sinister facts, like - we took mum for hipscoring, but the plates were horrendous so we didn't submit them and decided to play the role of the 'naive breeder' instead.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder adding a premium for KC regstration - it costs just *TWELVE pounds *to register a pup, and is probably the cheapest element of the whole breeding process.
> 
> =============================
> 
> If you get the information you require when you phone and then go and visit the litter - please ensure you
> 
> * *see proof of all health tests discussed* (part of your research to know what should be done beforehand)
> 
> * ask the breeder lots of questions - a good breeder will be happy to answer any queries you have
> 
> * expect to be asked just as many questions as you have asked yourself. The breeder should be just as concerned that you are the right home for their pup as you are that they are a good breeder!
> 
> =============================
> 
> If you want a cross breed or you are truly not concerned about the background of the pup - then your first port of call should be rescue. I appreciate that rescues aren't for everyone, after two years of trawling the rescues for a dog, we realised that my daughter's fear of grown dogs wasn't going to go away any time soon, (now she isn't afraid of any dog - good job when I have 6 of them )
> 
> ========================
> 
> All too often I hear people say, someone has to give these pups a home - and yes, I understand it isn't their fault they've been put on this earth, but for every breeder who had to give their pups away to rescue because they cannot find homes, will be one more breeder who will think twice before they do it again - and then these pups can be found homes responsibly.
> 
> I understand this will put more pressure on rescues initially, but long term, it just MIGHT help reduce the pressure.
> 
> A large percentage of people who buy deliberate cross-breeds and dogs from un health tested parents, give them away at the first sign of trouble - because such breeders are unlikely to have the courage of their convictions to accept that an owner is unsuitable for one of their pups - all they want to do is sell them
> 
> =====================
> 
> We hear a lot of talk about stopping Back yard Breeders and Puppy Farmers - but people don't seem to understand that the only person who can do something about it is *YOU* the puppy buying public -by doing your research and having the courage to say no.
> 
> A breeder that health tests doesn't make them good - if you are unhappy with ANY element of the litter or their environment - WALK AWAY.


Well I was looking for another french bulldog come across a post which looked legit and the puppies were all beautiful.... states that the pups are KC registered full pedigree and then the lady sent me the pups paper which (which I paid a deposit for) and turns out she's DWKC registered which is jack shit to me to be honest I've looked into this website and anyone can register their dogs crossbreed everything. Not a happy lady and two wee girls left heart broken. I will give the lady her due she gave me my refund, but top and bottom line is she's falsely advertising these pups as full KC and their not good luck to the other buyers who have bought a pup from her because your paperwork means nothing. Here her add incase anyone sees this post. Her pups are beautiful but buyers shouldn't be mislead


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## Nonnie

zoe88 said:


> Well I was looking for another french bulldog come across a post which looked legit and the puppies were all beautiful.... states that the pups are KC registered full pedigree and then the lady sent me the pups paper which (which I paid a deposit for) and turns out she's DWKC registered which is jack shit to me to be honest I've looked into this website and anyone can register their dogs crossbreed everything. Not a happy lady and two wee girls left heart broken. I will give the lady her due she gave me my refund, but top and bottom line is she's falsely advertising these pups as full KC and their not good luck to the other buyers who have bought a pup from her because your paperwork means nothing. Here her add incase anyone sees this post. Her pups are beautiful but buyers shouldn't be mislead


This highlights the thread title - all this could have been found out before your purchase/deposit. Did you not research your breeder? Did you not check the dam and sire on the KC database? what about health testing? Did you not check any of that was done? All this information is easily found.

Breeders like this exist because people dont do research. Some just dont care, as they want a puppy and they want it now.

Places like pets for homes are probably the last place you should look at for a well bred dog.


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## SusieRainbow

Blue and lilac ,as the parents ,are not recognised colours by the Kennel Club and can be associated with skin, coat and other health problems.
You've probably had a lucky escape !


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## Brut4k

swarthy said:


> We see many posts about breeders and their responsibilities, but a few posts of late have made me think more about the puppy buyers responsibilities.
> 
> If someone wants to buy a pedigree pup - PLEASE do your research - the internet offers a wealth of information these days on essential and recommended tests.
> 
> It is - I understand - very difficult to walk away from a litter - so call ahead and ensure that as an absolute minimum, the recommended health tests have been done, if they haven't don't go.
> 
> Stories such as "oh dad has been hipscored" and "mum is healthy so we didn't bother" can hide much more sinister facts, like - we took mum for hipscoring, but the plates were horrendous so we didn't submit them and decided to play the role of the 'naive breeder' instead.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder selling males, females, or different colour pups for different prices.
> 
> BEWARE of any breeder adding a premium for KC regstration - it costs just *TWELVE pounds *to register a pup, and is probably the cheapest element of the whole breeding process.
> 
> =============================
> 
> If you get the information you require when you phone and then go and visit the litter - please ensure you
> 
> * *see proof of all health tests discussed* (part of your research to know what should be done beforehand)
> 
> * ask the breeder lots of questions - a good breeder will be happy to answer any queries you have
> 
> * expect to be asked just as many questions as you have asked yourself. The breeder should be just as concerned that you are the right home for their pup as you are that they are a good breeder!
> 
> =============================
> 
> If you want a cross breed or you are truly not concerned about the background of the pup - then your first port of call should be rescue. I appreciate that rescues aren't for everyone, after two years of trawling the rescues for a dog, we realised that my daughter's fear of grown dogs wasn't going to go away any time soon, (now she isn't afraid of any dog - good job when I have 6 of them )
> 
> ========================
> 
> All too often I hear people say, someone has to give these pups a home - and yes, I understand it isn't their fault they've been put on this earth, but for every breeder who had to give their pups away to rescue because they cannot find homes, will be one more breeder who will think twice before they do it again - and then these pups can be found homes responsibly.
> 
> I understand this will put more pressure on rescues initially, but long term, it just MIGHT help reduce the pressure.
> 
> A large percentage of people who buy deliberate cross-breeds and dogs from un health tested parents, give them away at the first sign of trouble - because such breeders are unlikely to have the courage of their convictions to accept that an owner is unsuitable for one of their pups - all they want to do is sell them
> 
> =====================
> 
> We hear a lot of talk about stopping Back yard Breeders and Puppy Farmers - but people don't seem to understand that the only person who can do something about it is *YOU* the puppy buying public -by doing your research and having the courage to say no.
> 
> A breeder that health tests doesn't make them good - if you are unhappy with ANY element of the litter or their environment - WALK AWAY.


So I picked up a puppy recently and want to breed but the breeder wants the first litter. Is this a normal thing? I feel like he is trying to screw me over. These puppies are around 5 grand each so It's like I'm paying 55k for this dog.


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## Rafa

Well, I have no clue what pup you would pay £5,000 for.

If you have no signed contract with the Breeder, then you have no legal obligation to hand over any pup.

Why do you want to breed from her? Is it because the pups change hands for so much money?


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## Brut4k

Rafa said:


> Well, I have no clue what pup you would pay £5,000 for.
> 
> If you have no signed contract with the Breeder, then you have no legal obligation to hand over any pup.
> 
> Why do you want to breed from her? Is it because the pups change hands for so much money?


Well first my family dog passed away so we were looking for a new one and found xl bully for sale and a great pedigree. We have two kids and want to breed the dog for a second income so my wife can stay home with the kids. I haven't signed a contract but also they want to hold her papers until the first litter and then I can have them.


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## Rafa

Have you paid for this puppy?

When you buy a pup, all papers should be included.

If the Breeder is withholding papers, then she's very shady indeed.

You really should not be using a bitch as a form of 'income'. That's very wrong.

If you have paid in full for your bitch, then the Breeder has no claim on her or any pups she may have, unless you have signed a contract stating otherwise.


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## Brut4k

Rafa said:


> Have you paid for this puppy?
> 
> When you buy a pup, all papers should be included.
> 
> If the Breeder is withholding papers, then she's very shady indeed.
> 
> You really should not be using a bitch as a form of 'income'. That's very wrong.
> 
> If you have paid in full for your bitch, then the Breeder has no claim on her or any pups she may have, unless you have signed a contract stating otherwise.


We would like to start breeding tho. I have paid for her and have her now. She is registered but under the breeders name. Is there a way to get papers if the breeder will not give them? Sorry for the newbie questions but I almost want to give her back and find another breeder that will be easier to work with.


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## SusieRainbow

Brut4k said:


> We would like to start breeding tho. I have paid for her and have her now. She is registered but under the breeders name. Is there a way to get papers if the breeder will not give them? Sorry for the newbie questions but I almost want to give her back and find another breeder that will be easier to work with.


In the UK only the breeder can give registration documents. I'm afraid that if the breeder refuses there is nothing you can do. 
Have you signed any form of contract?
Being in the USA things may be very different. Were you aware of any of this when you paid for the puppy ?


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## O2.0

Brut4k said:


> We would like to start breeding tho.


What you have in mind is not the way to start breeding. It's not something to do for a second income. These are lives we're talking about. Breeding responsibly means so much more than just having a fertile bitch. Please peruse some of the stickies in the breeding section to get a better idea of what caring, responsible breeding is about.


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## simplysardonic

Brut4k said:


> We would like to start breeding tho. I have paid for her and have her now. She is registered but under the breeders name. Is there a way to get papers if the breeder will not give them? Sorry for the newbie questions but *I almost want to give her back and find another breeder that will be easier to work with*.


Wow, that's quite a callous attitude to a living, sentient animal.

She's not a product for you to make money & fund a luxury lifestyle from, maybe take a good look at your personal ethics & maybe advise your wife to get a proper job.


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## TASHER

You might want to learn from our experience. We were looking for a puppy from health tested parents. We replied to a breeder Florie Bell Pups - a licensed breeder who claims her breeding dogs are health tested. When we visited, instead of showing us the documentation, she said 'call the vet'. The catch was, to reserve the puppy we had to pay a non refundable deposit immediately. When I added a clause to the deposit agreement to say subject to confirmation of parents' health, the breeder immediately broke off contact and sold the puppy to someone else. When I got through to the vet she said that privacy stopped her from divulging information about dogs. The breeder must have known this. So her strategy appears to be to get people to pay deposits and avoid anyone - like us - who actually checks the information. 
Why would a breeder do this unless they have something to hide. We were very surprised and now assume that anyone who advertises on a website is in it for the money, and require hard evidence before believing anything they say. I hope you will too.


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## EmMarley991

This is a helpful thread even in 2022  Thanks guys!


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## Totus dog

Completely agree with your point of view, Dog buyers should also take responsibility for buying a healthy pet. So, it is highly advisable to do the research before bringing a new life to your home.


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## Rafa

Brut4k said:


> Well first my family dog passed away so we were looking for a new one and found xl bully for sale and a great pedigree. We have two kids and want to breed the dog for a second income so my wife can stay home with the kids. I haven't signed a contract but also they want to hold her papers until the first litter and then I can have them.



A couple of points here.

Firstly, an XL Bully cannot be Kennel Club Registered, so whoever your pup is registered with is not an official body.

Secondly, how many litters do you believe you can take from one bitch? Certainly not enough to provide an income. You cannot breed from her at every season.

When you say the Breeder is withholding papers, it can only be the pedigree.


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## GmaRotty

I agree with this post as well. There are way to many byb here in the USA as well. I have been training my rottweiler for 2 years almost 3 and doing health testing before breeding. I did my research on the breed and know my breeder well. Once we get the health scores back then on to selecting the male that would be best for the breed.


----------

