# Rising costs of breeding



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I have always studiously avoided knowing what I spend on breeding but the latest round of price hikes for energy have got me thinking. Every cost has risen substantially in the last five years and the price of kittens certainly hasn't kept pace. Food, cat litter, fuel, even tea and coffee for kitten visits. Even my summer litter was a drain on the energy bill because keeping them cool through a heatwave cost as much as keeping the house warm for a winter litter. I dread to think what it costs me to run a stud, mainly for the benefit of others - daren't work it out  I'm noticing an increasing trend in buyers having to travel further which means breeders must be falling by the wayside.

At what point would you have to say enough is enough?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I guess enough is enough if you're going without in order to breed, and not selling kittens.

Kitten prices rise every year or two to offset other costs.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I really hate to think how much money it's costing me ... 

Food being my biggest one , but I try to bulk buy to save on delivery .. I just wish I could get it local 

Heating the cattery is another cost .. Everything is on thermostats so it does not over heat and waste energy but still the heating is on while they are sat outside watching the world go by 

Insurance ... Just don't go there 

Vets .. Gulp 

Raising a litter .. Gosh don't think I will see alot of money out of this litter , and the longer they stay the more cost

When to give up ... Now there's a question ... When I can no longer look after my cats , feed myself and run my car and pay the mortgage


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I always swore I'd never cut any corners but my kitten packs are a lot less generous than they used to be. The essentials are still there but the extras aren't. I used to include a lovely cat bed but what I used to be able to buy wholesale for £4 is now over £7 so as my last lot got used up I haven't re-ordered.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I guess enough is enough if you're going without in order to breed


Well that's a given. If I didn't breed the money (and time) would obviously be spent on something I currently go without.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

There is very little disposable income left in this household because of monthly cat expenditure. I'm not complaining of course, it's my hobby and my choice. A big, unexpected vet bill (fortunately for me they haven't happened very often) always really hurts but the money is found. If it could not be found without, for example, a loan or selling possessions, that would be it for me, I would give up.

Reading that back to myself, it doesn't sound very nice. I suppose what I'm saying is that breeding is meant to be a pleasurable hobby and as little as it often leaves with me with at the end of the month, money wise, I couldn't and wouldn't go into debt for it.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I couldn't and wouldn't go into debt for it.


Nor would I, I keep track of expenses rather than head in the sand. I've not had any vet bills outside the usual vaccinations or checkups, but the money is put aside in case. That's often what puts a dent in things the most, an ER trip at 2am.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

If i didnt breed id have loads of dosh  its not too bad atm its when weve got kittens it cost a bomb to feed say 8 kitten they would go through 2 tubs of NI a day that over £5 per day.Add that up for the 10 weeks they are eating for,then my adults need feeding on top of that.

Im currently have 6 tube heaters on the go outside,dont know why mind as the boys are still choosing to camp out .I must pay at least £20 on heating just for the cats per week.

Id have to give up if the OH lost his job no way could i do this if it wasnt for him.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

We keep very detailed account using Excel spreadsheets. When I say detailed, I mean detailed - every penny spent (including the hidden costs people so often forget about) on my hobby. I think I'm fairly average as breeders go in terms of how many cats I have and the general day to day and month to month way in which I care for, feed, house, etc, etc, my cats - probably the main thing that would make my outgoings lower than many other breeders is that I don't show very frequently nowadays.

When I've told (they've asked out of curiosity as they know I keep accounts) some breeder/friends what my average, monthly expenditure is, some have actually disbelieved me saying that 'it' can't possibly be that high. It really is a truly shocking amount when you keep track of every penny!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Yep, it seriously needs consideration and I'm in the process of considering - if it wasn't for the fact I have at least 3 fairly serious people wanting one of next years litter I would consider jacking it in.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Am pleased I saved and saved before a started not much left in the kitty account now tho ... But it gave me a good start 

Am in a good job , but if I had to come out of work or made redundant that would be it ... My OH does not put any money into my hobby , its mine and I could not put that pressure on him .... 

I did go into breeding with my eyes open, but I have been shocked with some of the costs ... How long can I carry on ... I hope for the next ten years


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I think people in the SE, around and in London, often travel some distance for kittens as prices a few hours up the motorway are lower than for London breeders.

I'm pretty sure that if you really add up every penny that could be claimed for on insurance that over the years it's cheaper to self-insure.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Insurance doesn't cover breeding cats here, I don't insure my pets either as it's not worth it for me.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

My girls are on a breeding policy , which covers c sections and their litters.. cost me £500 per year .. Expensive but I would rather be covered. ... I do save but it always seem to get invested into something else


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't insure and I'd be well out of pocket if I had done. I'm fortunate that I've never had to worry about the costs. A combination of rising costs and the time I give to things like running a stud are definitely under consideration though. I think I've reached the point where I don't think it's worth being at the beck and call of others 'for the good of the breed'


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think people in the SE, around and in London, often travel some distance for kittens as prices a few hours up the motorway are lower than for London breeders.


Actually it's been the other way round. My prices are at the top for my breed and when I get pet enquiries from a long way away I suggest names to save the travel only to be told they aren't breeding any more.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

I have got two pedigree cats that I paid £400 and £425 for and a cross I bought for £100, all boys. So I am glad there are pedigree breeders out there! But if is costing you more than you make why do you do it? Is it the joy of raising a litter or trying to breed a perfect specimen? I bred a litter about 30 years ago and it was wonderful, really enjoyed it, never did it again as I tend to prefer male cats.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

God, I hate to think how much we spend here on our cats, breeding, showing and all :eek6:


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

A lot of people I contacted this time around or even in the last year have either given up breeding or are taking a break. For Burmese there are still a lot in my area, however I found very few Siamese and for Tonkinese my closest are about an hour or two away - one didn't reply to phone or email contact, the other I didn't really click with.

I wonder if breeders tend to be in clusters when it comes to breed and locality?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But if is costing you more than you make why do you do it?


It isn't a business to make profit. It's a hobby undertaken by enthusiasts. We expect our hobby to cost us money - it's how much that's under discussion.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I wonder if breeders tend to be in clusters when it comes to breed and locality?


You do get clusters.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I made the mistake of totting up costs for my last litter, and stopped when I got to £1721, no joke! Swore I'd never do it again.

I do expect it to cost money. Most hobbies do. I think when it starts to impact on your quality of life, that's when you've got an issue.

It's funny, I was thinking this weekend actually "what would I spend my money on if I wasn't spending hundreds every month on these little sods? And if I didn't have them, I could go on holiday whenever I wanted!" I think I'd be able to have about 3 holidays a year with the amount these guys get!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I have pedigree cats indoors and moggies outdoors. I got the pedigrees from a breeder who was giving up.for a number of reasons including health but I think finances paid a huge part in it too. Plus the amount of time in looking after them...can easily become a full time thing and surpass being a hobby.

I have 5 indoors now.....so feel I am saturation point..physically and financially and as they are all neutered its without the cost of extra little mouths to feed and clean.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

carly87 said:


> I think when it starts to impact on your quality of life, that's when you've got an issue.!


I've thought about this quite a lot, especially in light of the rising costs involved in breeding.

I still look forwards to and enjoy every litter as much as I did my first many years ago and I still have things to want to achieve. I would hate to be forced to give up but I do sometimes wonder if my hobby has too much of a negative impact on other areas of my life or rather, as Carly says, impacts on the quality of your life.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

It has a big impact on you life and your families lives Everything revolves around them... Time ,money energy.. Holidays are a thing of the past now.. I said I would give it ten years then that's it then I could spend my years in my fifties ,calm and stress free .. I don't regret it at all and a look forward to many more wonderful litters


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I would hate to be forced to give up but I do sometimes wonder if my hobby has too much of a negative impact on other areas of my life or rather, as Carly says, impacts on the quality of your life.


I think you may have put your finger on it here. Until very recently (in relative terms) I'd have said breeding enhanced the quality of my life. I've never known what it is to have holidays etc. so I've never missed them. As far as I was concerned every day was a holiday* because *I could breed. Various things are now making me evaluate just whether the impact is positive or negative. Must be sitting at neutral currently to be at this stage of questioning


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

My cats are pets first and breeding cats second so I don't count the cost of their care nor their purchase price (unless significantly more than the pet price then I'd count the difference for my own administration but the difference will certainly not go towards the price of the kittens because no buyer in NL would pay it!). I do however take into account the extra costs of breeding (for eg. the health tests, stud fee, kitten vacs etc.). Even then, the price of the kittens does not offset the direct costs of a nest (unless it's a big, healthy nest with no problems). 

Since I will only have a maximum of 5 cats (having a strict husband and knowing that I am keeping them for life helps with keeping the numbers down) which will live in the house (ergo won't have to build a separate cattery), I figured that it probably only costs 3000 euro (excl. costs of having a nest, accidents, major illnesses etc.) per year to maintain them to a high standard (good food, toys, etc.). To me, this is worth it. Anyway holidays are a heck lot more expensive than that (3000 euro would buy a trip to Asia for 2-3 weeks for one person and it wouldn't even be an awesome hotel...) and lasts for a limited time

I will stop -as some of you have mentioned- when it seriously affects my quality of life.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

After this year I have been seriously considering giving up  I put money by for emergencies but after the problems I've had this year that has dwindled to very little. 
The finances aren't the only side to it - the emotional side has been very draining  
The holidays don't matter - we haven't had one for years due to our business.
However I still have people who wanted kittens from Pasha this time who are waiting for the next litter, people who have had Mai Tai's kittens who want another ...
It's a bloomin expensive hobby but it does have lots of rewards


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Tempy said:


> Breeding does seem to be something you do for personal achievement/pleasure more than any return. When I looked for a kitten recently I contacted all the breeders I found listed and found a lot had given up; one specifically said it was down to the costs. I hope that less well known breeds are not lost as a result :001_unsure:


We are all in the same boats so its going to happen to them too am affaid which is a shame ... I know of two breeders of my breed in my area that have given up this year and am sure many more have consider it ...

I feel we have try , as its just going to open up more and more BYB


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I am also thinking of giving up, as I am on my own with just my pension I am definitely out of pocket this year,had a lot of high vets bills, 1 with colitis, epilepsy in one of my breeding cats who had to be spayed, another with kidney failure, and having kittens still left at 20 weeks, although only 1 left now,, but nothing to fall back on
I have been breeding for 15 years, but finding hard to manage financially now 
With rising costs of food, litter etc, some of the pleasure has gone out of it, and having the kittens for so long extra food and worming, 
I have usually had them ,or most of them booked by 6 weeks, so at lest had deposits, which help with vaccinations etc, and the stress of wondering how long I would have the kittens for as they were getting older, and people don't want kittens when they are getting too big


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Mine are 16 weeks now and only sold one so far ... Three to go ... This is my first litter so I have been dishearten with the lack of interest and bloody time wasters .. But some of the top breeders are finding it hard this summer .. I hope it picks up .. I don't want to sell them cheap as am doing them and myself injustice and I don't want ppl thinking why are they so cheap ... Am between the devil and the deep deep at the min


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Cosmills said:


> Mine are 16 weeks now and only sold one so far ... Three to go ... This is my first litter so I have been dishearten with the lack of interest and bloody time wasters .. But some of the top breeders are finding it hard this summer .. I hope it picks up .. I don't want to sell them cheap as am doing them and myself injustice and I don't want ppl thinking why are they so cheap ... Am between the devil and the deep deep at the min


It will pick up but it must be a worry. There was a time when, after the lull in the summer, enquiries instantly picked up in September. That, I've noticed over (relatively) recent years, has slowly become later and later in the year.

I can remember a time not *too* many years ago when enquiries were so overwhelming in the winter months (when I rarely have kittens) I would unplug the 'phone in the evenings. I still receive a fair number of speculative enquiries in late winter/early spring (just because hardly anyone has kittens available) but there has been a huge 'drop off' in that respect.

Trying to time litters for a certain part of the year seems to be key though I have never quite managed it.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Kittens definitely go better in the winter months, and I usually try for that, but my girls had been calling non stop almost for months, and didn't want to leave them too long, but I didn't lower my prices, was thinking of it,when I had a sudden rush of enquiries, but 3 of them lived too far away, and with no transport, but then this weekend, a few more, and 2 more gone, so justm 1left,


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> The finances aren't the only side to it - the emotional side has been very draining


I know a few who've given up, or changed breeds due to heartache. And I think everyone I know has questioned why they put themselves through this if a kitten or cat passes.

Others I know have given up to start a family, for many people it's not possible to give your all to the cats and your all to a child, I know I couldn't with the amount of time I spend on my cats and wouldn't want to do things half assed. 
One lady I know stopped for 30 years to raise 10 adopted children, then went back to breeding - taking up 2 different breeds to what she'd had before.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The finances aren't the only side to it - the emotional side has been very draining


The strain on the nerves and occasional heartache is the bit a non breeder would never think of. Buyers only see successfully reared, cute kittens. I haven't had any major drama for a good while but the possibility is always in my mind.

I also don't think I have the same patience with people as I used to. That's probably a general thing because of age but I find it increasingly annoying if people don't have any respect for my time. I had one person who had booked a visit on a Saturday phone to tell me their shopping had taken longer than they intended and it 'wasn't worth setting out now so they'd come up tomorrow'. Time was I'd have gone along with that. Now I won't.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I totally agree, it can be very draining and stressful, with people who think you have all the time in the world, to send them multiple pics, which means taking lots of photos, and then uploading them, sending them on, then being asked for more, how many can you take different of 1 kitten, 
After all that, cant collect, can you deliver, grrr
Or waiting in for people who don't have the courtesy to let you know they cant make it, so you wait in,after having having a last minute check to make sure all is clean, and tidy, litter trays have not been used with smelly poo etc
Is it really worth all that hassle, 
I am beginning to think not, besides othe family commitments


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I really enjoy breeding but have decided to give up now.
The heartache of losing a 2 week old kitten despite all efforts has been really hard to cope with, then there is the fact my queens are almost 4yrs old and i always retire at 4yrs, limited space in the home to keep retired queens happy would mean i would have to rehome them, and this is not something i can do, so my retired queens will remain as my pets.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

It cost us a fortune on our last litter with the heat wave and trying to keep them cool, we had them all to the vets a few times for water syringed under their skin as they were dehydrating, two of them stopped eating and drinking and it did cost us so much, they left us very healthy and lively kittens though and have done well in their new homes. 
I think we would give up if we couldn't have anything else and all monies were spent on vets, food, litter etc. At the moment we have a few people waiting for the next three litters, I'm sure some will change their minds and find kittens beforehand when they get too excited and just can't wait any longer. 
Not sure how we will do with Wispas litter in three weeks as all girls will be torties, we just wanted to see how we went on at selling torties, if there was a call for them or not... a big risk I know, we may end up keeping them all if they are not in demand. :001_unsure:
Don't get me wrong and I'm not touting for business but I do think having a good website helps, we design sites for a few breeders and they are all doing really well through their websites, one lady sold 19 Bengals in a few weeks which she said was all down to her website.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sharonbee..... ask your vet to give you saline bag and syringes, you can then hydrate at home and its so easy to do.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I've just found this brilliant article - came up on my FB page 
How Much Does a Kitten Cost - Siamese Cat Breeder


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Is it really CC?... It would've been good if I could have done that myself, I am very squeamish at the thought of putting a needle into them myself...does the needle go in easily? I would be worried if it didn't go through their skin and I would have to attempt it again, I wouldn't want to hurt them. Thankyou for suggesting this though and next time if we need it I will ask the vet to show me and watch me do it for the first time. It cost a fortune last time for the vet to give it them and then having to go back days later for the same thing again.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

When you have done your first one its easier.
you just scruff and put the needle in, they dont feel it if you scruff them enough.
I always use a new needle after drawing the fluid out the bag though, nothing worse than a blunt needle.

Once the fluid is in you will feel a bubble of fluid, this goes down through the day.

With the rescue Libby she had to stay on fluids for an hour, so i used a coat hanger for the saline bag and just held the needle in place.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I know of a few people who have given up over the past couple of years for various reasons ... cost, the fact that it is very emotionally draining, problems with the lines they are working with, I've even heard of people giving up a breed because they can't sell the kittens because nobody has heard of the breed. These people were from all over the UK, there doesn't seem to be a 'black-spot'. 

This year I have bred three litters, and to be honest I am very glad I only had these. Two litters arrived by C Section (costing well over £1500 for the pair) and one of those had just one kitten. This is the first year since I started breeding that I have had kittens aged 12 weeks who were not booked. They all have been now but I'm glad I don't have any more kittens to sell. I have had no enquiries at all.

This is a hobby, I don't expect it to make me money but I don't have the luxury of spare money or space to keep breeding if I can't sell the kittens I produce. Next year I may limit the litters I have again and I may wind down the numbers of breeding girls I have which currently stands at five.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

As an aspiring breeder, it always amuses me when people ask me about the approximate price for a pet kitten and then say something like "Wow, you are going to make a lot of money, aren't you!" My cat would literally have to have a first litter of 30 kittens for me to make any money whatsoever off it! It's a hobby - an expensive one at that - not a way to make money, as I like to say.


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

Ive had a tough year also this year. With a couple of large vet bills and the normal usual vet expenses my cat fund has been hit hard.

I know its a tough time for everyone with a lot of us feeling the pinch with cost of living rises and wages not matching etc, so I can understand the lack of buyers for kittens. Lets face it when money is tight a pet is a bit of a luxury.

When selling my kittens I usually have a good percentage already booked but not this year, I have had to make sure that my prices are competitive so that kittens are sold.

This being said I don't compromise on vet care, feeding or housing etc, my cats cost me what they cost me. I don't keep account of what it costs me as im sure its a frightening amount. 

My cats and breeding are my hobby and as such don't really expect to make money...chance would be a fine thing


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> When selling my kittens I usually have a good percentage already booked but not this year, I have had to make sure that my prices are competitive so that kittens are sold.


Luckily my kittens have sold but enquiries are definitely down. To be fair I think the percentage of 'good' enquiries is better than it used to be. I do get fewer four word textspeak emails and most who phone turn into lovely buyers. My last litter weren't booked until quite late and I was left with one kitten for an extra couple of weeks. Don't think I'd ever drop the price. I'd rather give a kitten away to someone I already know than risk attracting someone looking for a 'cheap' kitten.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I do receive the very occasional email enquiry that I just want to ignore but only rarely have people mess me around, i.e. failing to make contact or not turning up as per arrangements. In comparison to a fair number of other breeders I speak to I seem to escape that sort of thing... and that isn't a brag as there's nothing special about me, my web site, the ads I might place or where I place them.

I don't reduce the price of my kittens, even when I'm a bit anxious about still having kittens available that are close to 12/13 weeks old in the middle of summer. I do honestly think that reducing the price has a negative effect (especially when that's stated in an ad) on the quality of the enquiries you receive and, though I'm sure it's a completely unfair assumption in many cases, there's something in the psyche of some that says 'cheaper' is inferior. Believe me, I'm about as far from being a snob as you could imagine, but there's something very 'last chicken on the shelf' about those ads stating 'reduced price, last kitten remaining'.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I had an enquiry "like the ginger one" or similar by text. Sent back he was cinnamon not ginger, but they turned out to be a lovely family who know a lot about cats. They now have the cinnamon (ex) boy in a terrific home deep in the countryside, where he will be able to go out once he's big enough. He is settling in really well and giving two little girls lots of pleasure.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

I know tax laws are radically different in the UK than the US, but I do know people over here who think they have a "hobby" and it actually counts as a business and they never realized they could claim it that way. For instance, someone's husband was retired, kept cows on their farm, sold milk and meat. He lost money all the time, but once they counted up everything, they were missing out on a huge tax break.

So, that said, has anyone ever considered or looked into claiming your hobby on your taxes? Since you are selling something, it seems logically that it would qualify. And since profits are rare, then the losses could be claimed to lessen your tax burden overall. Vet bills would be deductions. Food, heat, use of your home, all of those things. Again, it might be so different over there that it's not even possible, but if not......


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I think most breeders claim some expenses, at least enough to offset what they "make" in kitten sales and to prove they don't make profit at it. 

I think the biggest thing is time. It's something you can never really calculate, of course a hobby takes time but 90% of hobbies can be walked away from and adjusted to a time scale that suits the household/enthusiast best. With having your hobby at home 24 hours a day it will become a burden financially and emotionally at times. Any hobby that involves actually owning the animals does become a full time job, you can't skip a week of taking part in it over christmas or if problems arise in your personal life. I also think that all pets are worth a lot more than even what pedigree animals are sold for, and ped prices should be higher, if people want something they WILL save for it but sadly due to the market and rescues being saturated with pets it's a case of anybody being able to pick up a kitten for either free or as cheaply as they like. 

I actually think with tax laws some of the problem is, what some are willing to spend and do for their cats is offset/taxed etc, yet some breeders, I hate the term but BYB's, do no health provisions or vaccinations on kittens and so it is easier to profit from taking shortcuts, these people usually also insist it is a "hobby" despite making money at it.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I think most breeders claim some expenses, at least enough to offset what they "make" in kitten sales and to prove they don't make profit at it.
> 
> I think the biggest thing is time. It's something you can never really calculate, of course a hobby takes time but 90% of hobbies can be walked away from and adjusted to a time scale that suits the household/enthusiast best. With having your hobby at home 24 hours a day it will become a burden financially and emotionally at times. Any hobby that involves actually owning the animals does become a full time job, you can't skip a week of taking part in it over christmas or if problems arise in your personal life. I also think that all pets are worth a lot more than even what pedigree animals are sold for, and ped prices should be higher, if people want something they WILL save for it but sadly due to the market and rescues being saturated with pets it's a case of anybody being able to pick up a kitten for either free or as cheaply as they like.
> 
> I actually think with tax laws some of the problem is, what some are willing to spend and do for their cats is offset/taxed etc, yet some breeders, I hate the term but BYB's, do no health provisions or vaccinations on kittens and so it is easier to profit from taking shortcuts, these people usually also insist it is a "hobby" despite making money at it.


I don't know any breeders who can claim tax from breeding, unless its actually a business, and most are not, I think to count as a business you have to have a certain no of breading cats, about 12 I think


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> I don't know any breeders who can claim tax from breeding, unless its actually a business, and most are not, I think to count as a business you have to have a certain no of breading cats, about 12 I think


 I think even one pet that you have with the intention of breeding can be counted as taxable income as you would be breeding commercially. I know it is different if you say, have a litter of moggies compared to a litter of pedigree kittens, but during the whole thing where bengals became known as "money cats", HMRC tightened up on anybody who can't prove if they did or did not make money. It's worth keeping a receipt for everything these days. Even if you don't make money or declare it, it's still worth covering yourself


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I would like HMRC to try and get money out of me ... I keep all my receipts , it's a year to date that I have started breeding so this afternoon I added it all up 

Totally this year 6875.68 

One kitten sold £350 so far ... Vets fees today £180 plus Rosie's vet food £60 and saffy DNA testing £52 ... Whoop £ 58 profit on that sale. NOT £-6817 

Oh and That does not include heating , water etc 

So they can come and get me if they like lol,


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Tax department are not interested in hobby breeders here, puppy and kitten mills are businesses though, and registered as such, with payed staff on hand as well as thousands of puppies bred and sold to pet shops.
Would be wonderful to get a nice refund each year, won't happen for hobby breeders though. I do know a few breeders who have an ABN, they don't make a profit to offset a refund.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Tax department are not interested in hobby breeders here


It isn't here either. There was a time when some bright spark set out to investigate cat breeders but the whole idea was soon quashed as it became obvious they'd be paying us. There are loads of expenses I don't count as breeding expenses but would be claimable if HMRC decided we were a business. For example, the cost of keeping and feeding a queen all year round isn't a breeding expense to me because my cats are my pets. I only count the extra costs on top of that but if it were a taxable business expense I could count every penny of buying and keeping.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I think even one pet that you have with the intention of breeding can be counted as taxable income as you would be breeding commercially. I know it is different if you say, have a litter of moggies compared to a litter of pedigree kittens, but during the whole thing where bengals became known as "money cats", HMRC tightened up on anybody who can't prove if they did or did not make money. It's worth keeping a receipt for everything these days. Even if you don't make money or declare it, it's still worth covering yourself


Just curious as to where this information came from, posted by someone who isn't a breeder, not being nasty here by the way, just wondered who told you this, I could do with a tax refund too, would come in very handy for the next lot of food, wormers, etc, not to mention extra heating in winter, extra water for all extra cleaning of trays, food bowls, floors every day, would be very handy,


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I've been breeding 8 years now never once come close to even covering costs let alone making a profit (especially if you look at it business wise) I'd love a tax break - I expect that's why HMRC leave us alone - they don't want to be handing back money!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but during the whole thing where bengals became known as "money cats", HMRC tightened up on anybody who can't prove if they did or did not make money


To be fair, it probably was the Bengal bandwagon which got HMRC interested in cat breeding. The timing seems about right. What they realised very quickly was that it wasn't the norm and the appalling money making practices which went on with that one breed were not what happened in the wider breeding community.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

There was a case in the papers a few years ago, where people close by were complaing about the noise of cats calling and the no of cars which blocked their way ,and the person was reported I think to Envirnmental health, or the council,[not actually sure who, cant remember] it turned out that this person was then classed as running a business as there were lots of cats, and she had to declare her earnings,and then was told she had to pay tax, but there were lots of cats,and that is where I got the no 12 from ,I am sure thee were 12 breeding cats,so was then classed as a business


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I remember this, yes she had alot of queens.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I agree if you are running a cattery as a business then fair enough, 
I don't think kittens can be socialised properly with such a large no of cats and kittens
A lady rang me yesterday about a kitten, and asked if the kittens wete kept in the home and how many breeding cats I had, she is coming this weekend to see them, but she had also rung someone else,[the pertson who vaccinates homeopathically] and she was shocked to find this other person has about 40 cats and kittens,it put her off,


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> I agree if you are running a cattery as a business then fair enough,
> I don't think kittens can be socialised properly with such a large no of cats and kittens
> A lady rang me yesterday about a kitten, and asked if the kittens wete kept in the home and how many breeding cats I had, she is coming this weekend to see them, but she had also rung someone else,[the pertson who vaccinates homeopathically] and she was shocked to find this other person has about 40 cats and kittens,it put her off,


That would put me off ... How could you possibility look after all them cats properly ..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

There are a couple of well known BSH colourpointed breeders who have always kept fairly large of numbers of cats and where kittens are most often raised in an outdoor environment or in stacked cages in a garage. I don't know how these people live with themselves.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> There are a couple of well known BSH colourpointed breeders who have always kept fairly large of numbers of cats and where kittens are most often raised in an outdoor environment or in stacked cages in a garage. I don't know how these people live with themselves.


That's awfull ... I have not come across them yet and they would get a piece of my mind if I did


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Having so many cats and kittens cant be good, I did ask her not to come here the same day as visiting any more ,which she understood, but says she is going to cancel that breeder now,she wants a home reared kitten,which has been socialised with a family, in a family home
I was told about someone who breeds snowshoies keeping their cats in cages outside, a caravan which they lived in, this was a couple of years ago, so don't know if they still do


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There are a couple of well known BSH colourpointed breeders who have always kept fairly large of numbers of cats and where kittens are most often raised in an outdoor environment or in stacked cages in a garage. I don't know how these people live with themselves.


I reckon that's a business. There is a set of fairly detailed HMRC instructions on how to decide if it's a business or not. There's also a document used by councils though it is about dogs and doesn't really work for cats though some do try to quote a case involving building greyhound kennels to claim a hobby breeder with a cat run should apply for planning permission for a business. Never known a council succeed with a normal hobbyist if the breeder doesn't panic.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Keeping cats in poor conditions to make profit is horrible... I do think though that how well the cats live can't be judged on the number the owner keeps. Some people can have 40 cats and have an immaculate cattery and home with plenty of time for all of the animals there. Of course you would have to be quite wealthy to sustain owning 40 cats to an acceptable standard! 

I really can't remember where I heard about it but I do remember with dogs there used to be an old myth of "2 litters a year is a hobby" but it is not true. I think they realise how drastically unfair it is to use a policy that goes by the number of animals, for example a litter of border collies in wales may only reach £150 per puppy, but when a breed becomes popular like say the chihuahua did they may achieve £1000 + per puppy. Again similar to bengals at one time being worth double even triple what another pedigree cat would have fetched.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I do think though that how well the cats live can't be judged on the number the owner keeps.


I think one can most certainly judge. Leaving aside 30 or 40 cats roaming a mansion and its grounds... that number of cats in an average sized home is completely unacceptable. What is somehow even more unacceptable to me are rows of rows of little prisons (aka breeding cattery) and their 30 or 40 inmates. I don't care how spotless that cattery is; I don't care if I could, as the saying goes, eat my dinner off the floor. It's disgusting and the cats have virtually no quality of life.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

havoc said:


> I reckon that's a business. There is a set of fairly detailed HMRC instructions on how to decide if it's a business or not. There's also a document used by councils though it is about dogs and doesn't really work for cats though some do try to quote a case involving building greyhound kennels to claim a hobby breeder with a cat run should apply for planning permission for a business. Never known a council succeed with a normal hobbyist if the breeder doesn't panic.


This is what I was referring to, back in my post that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. I wasn't talking about the HMRC coming after anyone or lurking about to charge you tax, or even for a breeder to charge tax on sales. I was talking about finding a way to claim your hobby as a business in an effort to get a tax break on losses, so if finances are the issue for anyone, you could continue your hobby without so much worry.

Over here, at least, it is fairly easy to "create" a business. You don't have to incorporate, or do much. You don't even have to come up with a name. For instance, if you watch children in your home (like a day care but just in your home), you can claim the part of your house used, the money spent on snacks, blankets, games, education, etc. You can claim utilities. You might simply be watching a couple of children for the neighbours, but you could claim it as a business expense. I have always been able to claim business use of my home (and all that goes with it, like computer and internet expenses, cell phone, utilities, rent/mortgage, insurance) because my office is here. I don't see clients here, but I use it for storing files and doing my work. And I used to have a "produce/nursery business." I sold my extra tomatoes and cucumbers and the extra seedlings I started for my home garden. I claimed the $67 or so I made, and also claimed the cost of dirt, tools, wood for raised beds, and fertilizers. I kept receipts for everything. And because I had a "loss" because all the stuff needed to garden cost a lot more than I made. And I think if I were to start breeding (I'm not planning to but hypothetically speaking), then I would do the same. It would be no less a hobby than my vegetable gardening, but since I would be selling kittens or puppies, and having contracts and all the things that go into it, it would make sense to treat it as a business venture.

So, I'm thinking that unless your tax laws are ridiculously different than here, it would be a simple thing to call your breeding hobby a business--I believe everyone has a business name already by having a cattery prefix--and keep all of your receipts. If it would help to keep you going doing what you love, then it's worth it. And again, I've found people over here have the same responses thinking because it's a hobby, they simply cannot claim. But there's no reason why a "hobby" that generates money can't also be called a business, in a philosophical sense. The question is whether the tax man is amenable--so it might be worth checking into.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But there's no reason why a "hobby" that generates money can't also be called a business, in a philosophical sense. The question is whether the tax man is amenable--so it might be worth checking into.


Oh you can choose to be a business if you like. Why in the name of sense anyone with a couple of breeding queens would choose to do so is beyond me. You can't pick and choose which bits of being a business you'd like to be liable for and you can't claim back your expenses against income from another source. If you make a net loss anyway what are you claiming against? You'd just end up further out of pocket because you'd be liable for increased expenses such as business rates etc.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

havoc said:


> Oh you can choose to be a business if you like. Why in the name of sense anyone with a couple of breeding queens would choose to do so is beyond me. You can't pick and choose which bits of being a business you'd like to be liable for and you can't claim back your expenses against income from another source. If you make a net loss anyway what are you claiming against? You'd just end up further out of pocket because you'd be liable for increased expenses such as business rates etc.


Okay, so the UK tax code must be terribly draconian. I thought ours was bad, but here, if you have a loss from a business, it will actually reduce your income tax up to a point. You can indeed claim against your regular income. But it would appear from your response that it's not the same in the UK. So sorry.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I thought ours was bad, but here, if you have a loss from a business, it will actually reduce your income tax up to a point. You can indeed claim against your regular income.


If that were possible here every breeder with a job would choose to be a business. Well, after they'd gone through applying to the council for change of use for their home, maybe even full planning permission and all the other associated misery and expense  From what you say it would make sense then in the US for every working individual to have a loss making business on the side - no?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

dagny0823 said:


> Okay, so the UK tax code must be terribly draconian. I thought ours was bad, but here, if you have a loss from a business, it will actually reduce your income tax up to a point. You can indeed claim against your regular income. But it would appear from your response that it's not the same in the UK. So sorry.


A completely different situation really but I think it depends on how savvy you are. I imagine there are ways around everything if you know what you are doing. When at the farm, although farming is different and there are lots of subsidies there are certainly other ways of doing things. I was talking with a farm accountant (not my farm but a friend) and she specialised in agricultural businesses. She found some fabulous loop holes for all kinds of things, including sales of horses and working dogs etc under livestock rules which are different. I think it would be possible to some extent to do something like this but you would have to know literally every in and out like the back of your hand and work out exactly how much you would gain or lose by utilising any loopholes.
On top of this, for a business already making a loss, would paying an accountant or similar actually be worth it with what could be saved? There is no point in registering as a business etc and managing to save £100 a year in tax when you have paid the accountant or somebody similar a small fortune. Not to mention the paperwork with all of it. It could actually be making a rod for your own back. Hmmm.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

havoc said:


> If that were possible here every breeder with a job would choose to be a business. Well, after they'd gone through applying to the council for change of use for their home, maybe even full planning permission and all the other associated misery and expense  From what you say it would make sense then in the US for every working individual to have a loss making business on the side - no?


Actually, yes, I think it would make sense, but as TAFLC says in the message after yours, it's more a question of being savvy. Most people don't know they could do such a thing, some are terrified of the IRS (the taxman over here) and think even if they're perfectly legal, they'll still be "caught". Some, if you tell them, refuse to listen, because they don't understand, so they assume it's a scam or too good to be true. Or they think that you have to have an accountant. And some are so tied to the emotional ideal of having a hobby, not a business, that they won't consider it and seem to take a perverse pride in losing money ut:.

But it really does sound like it's a lot more restrictive over there and a frightening labyrinthine process, especially asking a council for a change to home use. Until this April, I was a renter, yet I never had to apply to a single soul to claim my apartments and houses for business use. And I've used my home in 3 different capacities for tax purposes. All completely legally and above board. It's too bad, really. I would hate to see dedicated breeders giving up if there are ways to lessen the financial burden.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> A completely different situation really but I think it depends on how savvy you are. I imagine there are ways around everything if you know what you are doing. When at the farm, although farming is different and there are lots of subsidies there are certainly other ways of doing things. I was talking with a farm accountant (not my farm but a friend) and she specialised in agricultural businesses. She found some fabulous loop holes for all kinds of things, including sales of horses and working dogs etc under livestock rules which are different. I think it would be possible to some extent to do something like this but you would have to know literally every in and out like the back of your hand and work out exactly how much you would gain or lose by utilising any loopholes.
> On top of this, for a business already making a loss, would paying an accountant or similar actually be worth it with what could be saved? There is no point in registering as a business etc and managing to save £100 a year in tax when you have paid the accountant or somebody similar a small fortune. Not to mention the paperwork with all of it. It could actually be making a rod for your own back. Hmmm.


I think you've hit it on the head here. A lot of it comes down to being savvy, and that's not meant as a slight. Some people are brilliant, but just can't fathom the tax code because it's awful (I'm guessing that's a universal truth--the awfulness of tax codes!) But if you have the patience, you can do without an accountant. It does mean a LOT of extra and confusing forms, granted. But for all but one year out of the last 14, I've found it's worth it. But again, it really does sound like things are indeed different over there, although I'm going to stick with my assertion that tax codes are awful everywhere--how can they not be? They're tax codes


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> yet I never had to apply to a single soul to claim my apartments and houses for business use


Oh yes. A local council mustn't miss out on their chance to dip in your pocket even further. It really isn't as simple as deciding which you want to be.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And some are so tied to the emotional ideal of having a hobby, not a business, that they won't consider it and seem to take a perverse pride in losing money


So wouldn't a business cattery in the states be subject inspections, health and safety legislation, need special insurance for visitors etc? That's what it would mean over here so a little more at stake than an emotional attachment to hobby status if you happen to own a couple of breeding queens  Like I said, you can't choose which bits of business status you'll take on and which bits you don't fancy. Once you've been classed as a business you are liable for everything that goes along with it.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

havoc said:


> So wouldn't a business cattery in the states be subject inspections, health and safety legislation, need special insurance for visitors etc? That's what it would mean over here so a little more at stake than an emotional attachment to hobby status if you happen to own a couple of breeding queens  Like I said, you can't choose which bits of business status you'll take on and which bits you don't fancy. Once you've been classed as a business you are liable for everything that goes along with it.


If you check through the defera standards for keeping cats for personal use (this is meant as in not for other people's cats so you would be fine to keep your own breeding cats in) then they are shockingly small. I only know due to seeing them while looking at minimum specifications for small captive wild felines which again are horrendously small and not something I would consider acceptable for mine. I'm unsure about health and safety, I assume the loophole for this would be something like having part of your home and outside catteries etc registered as the business premises and part (say the lounge), as part of your home. If the viewing took place in your "home" area then no need for the public liability on those areas and domestic house insurance should cover it if the walls fell in!

Again on a different note, I know none of the posters here make money, but I have to say if the tables were turned and somebody posted saying that they were making money at it by breeding high end cats such as bengals used to be, I think there would be outright demand for them to declare what they made and pay the appropriate tax.
I've just added this bit for anybody looking who thinks making money and not declaring it is fine if it's from animals. It is not directed at anybody who has posted!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't know any US breeders who are registered as a business, if they stop breeding it'll be because of the ridiculous new AR fueled laws coming into place, same as those quitting over here in some states.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

havoc said:


> So wouldn't a business cattery in the states be subject inspections, health and safety legislation, need special insurance for visitors etc? That's what it would mean over here so a little more at stake than an emotional attachment to hobby status if you happen to own a couple of breeding queens  Like I said, you can't choose which bits of business status you'll take on and which bits you don't fancy. Once you've been classed as a business you are liable for everything that goes along with it.


I don't know about the inspections part, having never bred anything and not really knowing much about it, although I would venture to guess that the answer is no. I know if you make food of any sort, then that's different. The kitchen must pass inspections. But to the best of my knowledge (and if I have time, I'll definitely research this, since it's made me curious now) I don't think there would be any sort of inspections. I know most kennels aren't subject to inspections for safety or anything, at least the ones I've had experience with. That could vary by state, though, now that I think about it. As for insurance, that's a matter of personal preference I would guess. You're smart to have it and SOL if something happens if you don't, but unlike auto insurance, I would guess it's not compulsory. Likewise, while it is smart and good practice to create an LLC for your business (thereby making a different entity so that you personally could not be sued and lose all your personal belongings), not everyone does it because they don't want to pay lawyers, they don't think they need to, they don't want to pay for the LLC registration (it's not much), they don't even know about it, etc.


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