# The Kangaroo Process



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Elsworth has been on the kangaroo 3 days now and thankfully he is enjoying it. His poo is still smaller pieces but I have decided that is normal for him so that is fine. He is still going once a day and over 3 days he has been in the litter tray twice but this morning he pooed directly to the side of it. We shut him out of the office to break the habit of going in there but he has now decided to go next to another tray instead of the office tray. 

Will see what the next few weeks of kangaroo bring when I have a clearer picture of what is going on.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

So is this just kangoroo you feed him? Or do you still add pumpkin? Just curious  Fingers crossed you're getting closer and closer to resolving this issue.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> So is this just kangoroo you feed him? Or do you still add pumpkin? Just curious  Fingers crossed you're getting closer and closer to resolving this issue.


Just kangaroo. Still not solved the pooing outside of the tray, he is doing it almost every day now, just once I have found a poo in the tray.

I have some time off in Feb so I will have to resort to the crating thing. At least I can be home most of the day so he won't be cooped up all day, just when I'm busy or out and overnight.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If the pooing away from the tray is getting worse it is possible the kangaroo diet is not agreeing with him. Has to be a link if it's the only thing you've changed. Not all cats can tolerate all novel proteins unfortunately.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> If the pooing away from the tray is getting worse it is possible the kangaroo diet is not agreeing with him. Has to be a link if it's the only thing you've changed. Not all cats can tolerate all novel proteins unfortunately.


I can't be sure he has been worse since the kangaroo but it has definitely been worse since Christmas. His poo is generally the same just not in the trsy


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

As I've said before, unless you're going to constantly crate him, I wouldn't waste your time trying as it's not going to work. you can't have him out as you please then in when you can't watch him. That's not how it works.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Wondering why feeding a very lean unbalanced diet would help him poo in the tray?

Do agree with Carly, I'd crate him until he learns to use the tray properly.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> I have some time off in Feb so I will have to resort to the crating thing. At least I can be home most of the day so he won't be cooped up all day, just when I'm busy or out and overnight.


I'm pretty sure he has to be in there 24/7 for it to work ..... I don't think you're meant to let them out at all at the start

ETA - sorry just noticed Carly's post


----------



## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Not sure if this is part of another earlier thread but I get the impression this is about pooping away from litter tray. So apologies if this has already been mentioned at sometime but..... One of my boys will absolutely not poo in the same tray as he wee's. We had little offerings around the place until I gave him a second tray. He now uses both and no more problems around the house


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Citruspips said:


> Not sure if this is part of another earlier thread but I get the impression this is about pooping away from litter tray. So apologies if this has already been mentioned at sometime but..... One of my boys will absolutely not poo in the same tray as he wee's. We had little offerings around the place until I gave him a second tray. He now uses both and no more problems around the house


As I recall from her previous threads the OP has about 4 litter trays around the house. Her other 2 cats go outside so don't use the litter trays (or rarely use them).


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

spotty cats said:


> Wondering why feeding a very lean unbalanced diet would help him poo in the tray?


Oggers is feeding Elsworth 'Vet Concept' canned kangaroo, which is a grain free single protein balanced meal, designed to be used for elimination diets, as well as for normal feeding.

The idea was that possibly Elsworth has a food intolerance which was making defecating uncomfortable for him, and he may thus be associating the litter tray with discomfort, hence avoiding it and pooing next to it, or elsewhere.

By feeding the kangaroo as a novel protein for 6 weeks and then gradually reintroducing normal foods one-by-one, it may have identified a culprit food.

But as it is, tbh I can't see it working now, as his toiletting habits have remained the same so far on the novel protein diet, which may mean the cause is more likely behavioural, even though originally the cause may possibly have been physical.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

We currently have 4 trays in the house which the girls use to wee in but rarely poo. They do have access to the outdoors 24/7 as well if they want to go. Out of the 4 only 3 are used regularly. 

I did at one point have a tray in every room although granted it wasn't the same litter. 

At the old house we had 3 trays, the girls never used them and he only had access to 2 when we were out/overnight. Things started relapsing at the old house when he was 6 months old. 

With regards to the crating can you give me a step by step guide as I seem to be getting confused thinking he has to be in there unless supervised. At what point does he come out of the crate? I was originally a bit unsure about crating him if I was at work but thinking about it all he does is sleep whilst we are out so if he has his igloo he will be quite content.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Oggers is feeding Elsworth 'Vet Concept' canned kangaroo, which is a grain free single protein balanced meal, designed to be used for elimination diets, as well as for normal feeding.
> 
> The idea was that possibly Elsworth has a food intolerance which was making defecating uncomfortable for him, and he may thus be associating the litter tray with discomfort, hence avoiding it and pooing next to it, or elsewhere.
> 
> ...


This is the problem, maybe the kangaroo is working but now the habit has become ingrained.

Or maybe it has been behavioural all along but I haven't found the fix yet.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

As Carly has said the crating needs to be the whole time 24/7 for several weeks, possibly a month. So he learns to associate the litter tray with toiletting every time. If you were to let him out when you are home then you would not be breaking the association he has with being able to poo anywhere in the house. 

All it would do if you crate him only at times when you are out is restrict the places he poos during the periods he is in the crate, so it is easier for you to spot it when you get in. Some people crate their puppy all day whilst they are out at work to stop them weeing everywhere in the house, and prevent them being destructive. With cats it doesn't work that way. 

Probably as you say he'd sleep all day in his crate if you were out, then if you let him out each evening he'd be quite likely to go off and find somewhere to poo in the house.

To have any chance of success you'd have to stick with it 24/7, which tbh really is not easy.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> As Carly has said the crating needs to be the whole time 24/7 for several weeks, possibly a month. So he learns to associate the litter tray with toiletting every time. If you were to let him out when you are home then you would not be breaking the association he has with being able to poo anywhere in the house.
> 
> All it would do if you crate him only at times when you are out is restrict the places he poos during the periods he is in the crate, so it is easier for you to spot it when you get in. Some people crate their puppy all day whilst they are out at work to stop them weeing everywhere in the house, and prevent them being destructive. With cats it doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...


Ok but can I get him out to play with him to give him some exercise? Thinking brief short periods of play, snuggle then back in the crate he goes.

Where is the crate best placed? Away from everything or in the lounge where he can be with us but he will also have the others walking past especially at night.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Oggers is feeding Elsworth 'Vet Concept' canned kangaroo, which is a grain free single protein balanced meal, designed to be used for elimination diets, as well as for normal feeding.


Thanks for the explanation  Here feeding kangaroo means raw, and being a very lean and addictive meat I was wondering the meaning behind it especially for a kitten.

Hopefully crating will solve the problem.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Thanks for the explanation  Here feeding kangaroo means raw, and being a very lean and addictive meat I was wondering the meaning behind it especially for a kitten.
> 
> Hopefully crating will solve the problem.


Is it still addictive when canned do you know? He seems to like it a lot more than the other stuff, that could explain why.

Crating will commence this week, I will feel very mean leaving him in there but we have got to the stage now where I need to do something fairly drastic. Cleaning up poo every day is wearing a bit thin.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't know sorry, never seen it canned


----------



## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

oggers86 said:


> Is it still addictive when canned do you know? He seems to like it a lot more than the other stuff, that could explain why.
> 
> Crating will commence this week, I will feel very mean leaving him in there but we have got to the stage now where I need to do something fairly drastic. Cleaning up poo every day is wearing a bit thin.


Roman is on the VC kangaroo, been eating it for a few months now and it has defiantly helped (along with the combination of meds) with his IBD.

I'm not sure if he's addicted to it as that is all I'm feeding him, but he likes and enjoys it 

I've given some to Frank and Seb in the hope they will all be eating the same thing, Seb will occasionally eat it but Frank isn't keen.

Good luck and hope all goes well with the crating.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

ok, crating guide.

Crate him 24/7 for at the very least, the first 2 weeks. This is normally not long enough. I normally ensure that mine have an accident free week, i.e, poo in tray all the time, before even considering letting him out. He can come out for a snuggle, but not a play. I don't let mine set foot on the floor or anything. Just imagine he has a broken leg if that helps you. Those cats are crated for 6 weeks without being allowed to run around, so actually, he's got it easy! You can play with him in the crate though.

When he's been clean for a week, you can begin to give him access to the house. Begin with only 1 room. Only allow him out when you can physically watch him all the time. He's never allowed to be unsupervised for a second. If he squats, you need to be able to be right there to whisk him up and back into the crate before he manages to poo on the floor, otherwise all your hard work has been for nothing. If he shows signs of wanting to poo outside the tray, return him to the crate. Make him be clean for at least 3 days before trialling him with supervised time in the room again. Again, if he has an accident or tries to go, back in the crate until he's clean for another 3 days.

Once he's been clean in the single room for a week consistently, allow him to have a second room of the house. If he shows signs of wanting to go, return to the crate, wait the 3 days, then start again withgiving him access to only 1 room. The key with this system is to always return to square 1 every time there's an accident.

I'd put his crate in the living room where he can still see what's going on and you can chat to him.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> ok, crating guide.
> 
> Crate him 24/7 for at the very least, the first 2 weeks. This is normally not long enough. I normally ensure that mine have an accident free week, i.e, poo in tray all the time, before even considering letting him out. He can come out for a snuggle, but not a play. I don't let mine set foot on the floor or anything. Just imagine he has a broken leg if that helps you. Those cats are crated for 6 weeks without being allowed to run around, so actually, he's got it easy! You can play with him in the crate though.
> 
> ...


Ok! I might have to put him in an upstairs room so that I can block his access to the rest of the house without causing issues for the other 2.

I will update after a week of crating 

Thanks for the guide!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Can the Kangaroo suddenly be giving him a dodgy tummy? We have been shutting Elsworth in the bathroom overnight with his litter tray and letting him out once he has done a poo in it. He only goes once a day so we thought we were safe. Yesterday I noticed his poo was really soft and really smelly, same this morning. He has now done a 2nd soft poo in the office, quite a big pile considering he went sometime in the early hours. 

Am going to put him on plain chicken for a couple of days to help settle whatever the problem is. 

I am wondering if it is worth taking him to the vets this week for full on tests, maybe taking a sample with me?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes, it is possible the VC Kangaroo could be giving him an upset bowel, it did so with my cat after he'd been on it for a few weeks, and I had to switch him to another food. 

It is probably not the Kangaroo meat itself but the Vet Concept as some of the recipes as I recall, contain inulin (a prebiotic) which can upset stomachs in some cats. None of my cats are good with inulin.

Definitely keep him on the poached chicken drumsticks until his stools have firmed up.

If you are taking a poo sample to the vet for testing you need a pooled sample taken from 3 separate days. Just taking one day's will be of no use.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

As Chillminx says, Inulin can have a laxative effect....in fact I use it for that purpose in Woody's food.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Never had to crate a cat or retrain litter habits, but I do really wonder how an active breed cat would get on being shut in for 2 weeks without any playtime. Playing inside the crate I don't think would be near enough exercise for an active breed that needs to run, jump and leap to expel the energy properly?


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It's not a nice process, SC, not nice at all. But no worse than if an active breed broke their leg. It's only something I'd recommend when things have reached extremes. I've only had to do it once with one of mine, but a couple of times with friends' cats. Always for wee mind you, never poo, but it's always worked. Is it kind? No. Does it get the job done? yes. It's horrible, but if it's either that or rehome, then the owner needs to make the decision. I thought 3-4 weeks of being cooped up was better than a new home where the problems might just continue.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Never had to crate a cat or retrain litter habits, but I do really wonder how an active breed cat would get on being shut in for 2 weeks without any playtime. Playing inside the crate I don't think would be near enough exercise for an active breed that needs to run, jump and leap to expel the energy properly?


I don't like the idea either which is partly why I haven't done it yet. I said to hubs that we would start this weekend but actually I want to explore some more options.

Tomorrow I will ring the vets and explain what is happening and ask to make an appointment next week to do tests. That will give me the time to collect the 3 samples they will require.

Second of all we have paid for the enclosure now so once it arrives and we have built it he will have free daytime access to get some fresh air and stimulation. I will get an outdoor litter tray to put in there and some soft wood litter so he has another option.

If I see no improvement after 2 months of having the enclosure (assuming the tests come back negative and the vets will refer me) then I have 2 options. One is to crate him using the guide given by Carly and see how we get on or I will get in touch with another behaviourist, one who will offer email support rather than having to ring them when I work crazy hours. Sarah Heath offers email support for a year I believe with no extra charge. I would only need to pay if they needed to do a second home visit. Now the only thing with her is that she deals with other animals as well, not sure if I need sometime who only specialises in cats. I could try the crating first then if that fails it is clear I need a professional with a proper qualification.

Now I have one final concern about Elsworth and our environmentand that is that if everything goes ok he will have to cope with there being a baby in the house in 6 months time. It means my attention will be split so he will not be the main focus anymore. When we discussed getting a kitten and having a baby we thought him approaching 2 would mean he was out of the crazy kitten phase so less dependent. Neither of us imagined this happening and we couldn't put off having a baby forever in the hope that we could fix it before one arrived.

This is something that needs to be discussed with a behaviourist and they can offer me support if I find myself with issues.

I want to get this fixed baby or no baby and I would prefer to not have to deal with the pooing and a newborn but he isn't going anywhere so if I have to then so be it providing I am working on a solution.

The only way I would ever rehome him is if we had tried every single option and the behaviourist said it was in his own interests to do so. I don't know if he is feeling any stress at pooing on the floor but if he is it can't be nice for him either and ceretainly not something I want for either of us to deal with for the rest of his life. I don't think it would be fair for any of us to be in that position.

Please note for everyone who has offered suggestions and guidelines I appreciate every single one and have taken all of them on board. If I don't follow them in the short term then it is likely I will refer back and use some of them.

One way or another we will create a happy not pooing on the floor Elsworth and I hope I will be able to do that in our home and not someone elses. I can't imagine not seeing his little pointy face everyday even when he is annoying and pokes me in the face to wake me up.

Thanks to everyone for your patience, you have a lot more than me


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just one more question about food...

If he has a dodgy tummy I give him plain boiled chicken but how does applaws chicken and pumpkin compare as an emergency stash? Plain chicken is much cheaper but tins are more convenient if it's late and I don't have any chicken.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Booked him in at the vets on Monday. Explained what was happening and that none of the behaviour modifications had worked so wanted to get him medically tested for any underlying problems.


----------



## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Oggers, if Ziggy or Luna had the same problem as Elsworth, I wouldn't be able to cope with my little one. I would have to re-home them. You need to put yourself and baby first now baby is on the way. 

I know why you feel bad about crating him but having read lots of your posts, you really have tried nearly everything. The enclosure will ether work on day 1 or not at all IMO. 

If you can use the crate as advised you are doing the best thing for him before you make a very difficult decision. Once your bumpy gets bigger, all this bending down for poop will be so difficult and possibly impossible. 

You don't want to be forced into a decision right before or after your baby's birth. (((hugs)))


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Oggers! Congratulations on soon to be a Mummy!

Only by reading this thread did I find out.

I do hope Elsworth and his poo problems can be sorted out before the arrival of your baby.

However I must say Elsworth is very lucky to have such a kind and patient slave, many would have given up by now.

If you are as half as good at Mummy roles as you are being a cat slave, then you are going to be a fantastic Mummy...xx


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I don't like the chicken and pumpkin. I found that it didn't clear up the runs in my guys at all when they had them.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> Oggers! Congratulations on soon to be a Mummy!
> 
> Only by reading this thread did I find out.
> 
> ...


It isn't something I've broadcasted as we haven't had the scan yet so I don't know if everything is ok yet.

I couldn't give up on my Munchkin, he is so wanted that I couldn't stand him not being around. I don't want to reach breaking point where I feel like I have no option.

If I knew his poo problems could be fixed in a new home then I would reluctantly have to put him first but at the moment I am putting myself first and trying to fix the problem so he can be happy.

I look at him though and he is so happy, he snuggled with me all night and this morning despite me coughing like a crazy person. He is always happy to see us and such a character (pest) he stole my straw from my drink earlier and then started chucking his pieces of chicken on the floor.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lunabuma said:


> Oggers, if Ziggy or Luna had the same problem as Elsworth, I wouldn't be able to cope with my little one. I would have to re-home them. You need to put yourself and baby first now baby is on the way.
> 
> I know why you feel bad about crating him but having read lots of your posts, you really have tried nearly everything. The enclosure will ether work on day 1 or not at all IMO.
> 
> ...


I know. Let's see what the vet brings and then I will definitely know for certain that it isn't medical. The the with rehoming though is that it might not be fixed in a new home and not many people are going to want a cat who poos on the floor every day. I am obviously attached to him so whilst I don't want it either its not as easy to say "don't want that one" than it would be for someone with no emotional attachment to him.

Maybe I give the enclosure a few weeks and then resort to crating and then a behaviourist if they think they can fix it. I am not rehoming him until I have covered literally every option.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I don't like the chicken and pumpkin. I found that it didn't clear up the runs in my guys at all when they had them.


Oh that's a shame. Might be worth me keeping a cooked chicken breast or 2 in the freezer for emergencies then.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> Oh that's a shame. Might be worth me keeping a cooked chicken breast or 2 in the freezer for emergencies then.


I'd use chicken legs or drumsticks, as the meat is more nourishing (contains taurine) than chicken breast. You can buy bags of frozen raw drumsticks from the supermarkets to keep in the freezer.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> I'd use chicken legs or drumsticks, as the meat is more nourishing (contains taurine) than chicken breast. You can buy bags of frozen raw drumsticks from the supermarkets to keep in the freezer.


Ah perfect, that will do nicely.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Hey Oggers, guess what I tried VC Kangaroo on Monday for both Leo and Daisy. Leo got so clogged up we had to go to the vets today to help him. Daisy ended up with runs though. Well I don't feel bad for trying but really pinned my hopes on this new miracle protein 

Maybe time plus crate plus plain chicken combo will work for your Elsworth. Fingers crossed


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I don't want to get my hopes up but we have had poo in the tray for 2 days straight. He is banished from the office so now his tray is in the bathroom. Not really ideal long term as it's in the way but I am not risking moving it even an inch just yet. We won't have anybody over for ages and it only affects us wanting a bath. 

Definitely glad we are going to the vets though, now I will know if it's behavioural for certain instead of just assuming.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

That's good news, I have everything crossed he will continue 
Also congratulations on your pregnancy xx


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

moggie14 said:


> That's good news, I have everything crossed he will continue
> Also congratulations on your pregnancy xx


Me too but we have been here many times before so I won't assume it's a long term thing but I am always glad when my new carpets are spared 

Thanks, it's all a bit scary the whole not knowing if it's all ok, the hormones, sickness isn't great either! I have my scan a week on Monday so once I know it's ok and is really in there I will be happier.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oggers, have you had Elsworth on the plain chicken diet since he started using his tray for poo every time? Or is he still on the Vet Concept? 

If you have changed him to the chicken diet, then it is looking like the cause of the avoidance of the tray is dietary i.e. if his bowel feels more comfortable on the chicken diet he doesn't associate the tray with pain.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Oggers, have you had Elsworth on the plain chicken diet since he started using his tray for poo every time? Or is he still on the Vet Concept?
> 
> If you have changed him to the chicken diet, then it is looking like the cause of the avoidance of the tray is dietary i.e. if his bowel feels more comfortable on the chicken diet he doesn't associate the tray with pain.


He hasn't had any kangaroo for a bit just plain chicken or maybe a few stolen mouthfuls of the others food. Yesterday and this morning he had some chicken applaws which he prefers to plain chicken.

If it does turn out to be food then is it just a matter of trial and error?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Doing it by trial and error is really too-hit-and-miss, because unless you stick to foods like Applaws, which are basically chicken with nothing added, you are going to be feeding him foods which contain different ingredients, including different meat proteins. So if he reacts to something in one food you won't know which ingredient has upset him. 

Aside from the fact you could end up going round in circles and getting nowhere with the trial and error diet, it also means you risk upsetting his bowel every time you try a new food. 

Far better to find one food and stick to it for the near future. If that is Applaws then maybe you should consider feeding him that, but if that's all you'll be feeding him you'll need to add a supplement to it, such as Felini Complete or TC Premix, or he won't be getting a balanced diet and that could have implications for his health in the long term.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Doing it by trial and error is really too-hit-and-miss, because unless you stick to foods like Applaws, which are basically chicken with nothing added, you are going to be feeding him foods which contain different ingredients, including different meat proteins. So if he reacts to something in one food you won't know which ingredient has upset him.
> 
> Aside from the fact you could end up going round in circles and getting nowhere with the trial and error diet, it also means you risk upsetting his bowel every time you try a new food.
> 
> Far better to find one food and stick to it for the near future. If that is Applaws then maybe you should consider feeding him that, but if that's all you'll be feeding him you'll need to add a supplement to it, such as Felini Complete or TC Premix, or he won't be getting a balanced diet and that could have implications for his health in the long term.


Applaws is hideously expensive long term, I only bought it because he is alone overnight and I thought it was less risky than chicken.

However if chicken is ok then Ropocat do a single chicken protein which could work long term.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Another poo in its rightful place 

I am now reluctant to move from the fresh chicken but it's not complete so for a few days I don't have a choice until my felini arrives but I have some food with chicken and another bird like turkey and pheasant so that will have to do until the felini arrives. 

When it does I am going to do 2 weeks straight of nothing but chicken and felini and keep a log as to how many times he poos/what it's like and where he poos. If we have success in the 2 weeks I will get some chicken ropocat and see how we get on with that. I will keep him on that for a couple of months before even thinking about adding another Ropocat flavour.

I think I might cancel the vets tomorrow and carry on with the chicken experiment. It's such a shame I don't have any Felini otherwise I could carry on with the chicken!! Lesson learned, always have a stash of proper chicken and a stash of Felini for these types of occasions!


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

oggers86 said:


> Another poo in its rightful place
> 
> I am now reluctant to move from the fresh chicken but it's not complete so for a few days I don't have a choice until my felini arrives but I have some food with chicken and another bird like turkey and pheasant so that will have to do until the felini arrives.
> 
> ...


How long has Elsworth been eating just chicken? I'm no expert and happy to be proven wrong but I am pretty certain a week or max two on just chicken (no supplements) isn't going to do any long term harm - if it seems to be working I'd stick with it until the Felini arrives. Then you could continue for a bit longer then start to add chicken Ropocat etc.
I am so hoping that your little man might be turning a corner


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

moggie14 said:


> How long has Elsworth been eating just chicken? I'm no expert and happy to be proven wrong but I am pretty certain a week or max two on just chicken (no supplements) isn't going to do any long term harm - if it seems to be working I'd stick with it until the Felini arrives. Then you could continue for a bit longer then start to add chicken Ropocat etc.
> I am so hoping that your little man might be turning a corner


Since Wednesday. He has had a bit of applaws chicken dry and I have just given him some Omnomnom chicken which is 100% chicken. Put order in today so it should arrive by Thursday depending if I'm in to receive it.

If a food isn't complete it should only make up 20% of their diet which I worked out at being around 3 days so I am wary of giving him more just incase.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> Since Wednesday. He has had a bit of applaws chicken dry and I have just given him some Omnomnom chicken which is 100% chicken. Put order in today so it should arrive by Thursday depending if I'm in to receive it.
> 
> If a food isn't complete it should only make up 20% of their diet which I worked out at being around 3 days so I am wary of giving him more just incase.


yes but the 20% 'rule' only applies longer term.
if he is doing ok on the plain chicken then stick with it. Deficiencies are not going to show up after 3 days or even 3 weeks.(maybe not even 3 months, but you wont be going there)
I hope he likes the Felini....none of mine will touch it.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> yes but the 20% 'rule' only applies longer term.
> if he is doing ok on the plain chicken then stick with it. Deficiencies are not going to show up after 3 days or even 3 weeks.(maybe not even 3 months, but you wont be going there)
> I hope he likes the Felini....none of mine will touch it.


Ohh ok in that case then tomorrow I will go and get a load of frozen drumsticks. If he likes the felini I will probably do chicken until the end of February and then get some Ropocat chicken. If he doesn't can I still feed the chicken for as long? It would end up being about a month and a half in total.

I do wonder if the litter tray placement has anything to do with it, I can't imagine why it is any different to it being in the office but who knows with cats!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree with PP and M14, it won't hurt to keep him on the plain chicken diet a bit longer. Really the main thing is not to rock the boat right now as you are getting good results. Watch he is not getting constipated and is passing normal poos every day. 

OmNomNom Chicken as you say is mostly all chicken apart from 3% carrots, and added vitamins and minerals. But it does contain 15% hearts which can be loosening to the bowel in some cats. So I would go carefully, and not feed it every meal or every day. 

I would stick to home cooked chicken most of the time, as you know for certain what is in that. Also it is worth noting that Applaws Chicken breast does contain 1% rice, (which I had forgotten until I just checked the ingredients) it's not much I know, but even so I would want to avoid it for the time being, or at least only feed in an emergency. 

I had the same experience as PP - none of my cats would touch food with Felini Complete on it, so don't expect Elsworth necessarily to be impressed with it.  TC Premix has better success I have heard, but have not tried it with mine. 

If you do decide to add supplement start off with a very small amount and build up slowly, so there is less chance of it causing a problem in his bowel.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

If you are using drumsticks Oggers, how are you cooking them (if indeed you are at all )
Don't discard the bones anyway....boil them up to make bone broth which is very nourishing and will even contain some balancing nutrients. If you have a slow or pressure cooker you could even try cooking them till the bones turn to mush and then add some of that to his food.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> If you are using drumsticks Oggers, how are you cooking them (if indeed you are at all )
> Don't discard the bones anyway....boil them up to make bone broth which is very nourishing and will even contain some balancing nutrients. If you have a slow or pressure cooker you could even try cooking them till the bones turn to mush and then add some of that to his food.


I boil them up and then strip the meat from the bones with a bit of water added. I will probably make a bone broth once a week or so until I have enough to do a batch. I do have a slow cooker but have never cooked bones long enough for them to turn to mush. Sounds silly but I am paranoid about leaving the slow cooker on whilst I am out despite them being designed for that.

Sadly he won't touch anything raw.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Many years ago, a friend had two of her cats referred to the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket. They told her that an 8 week novel protein diet should be fed without any supplements and there was no risk of deficiency in that time. I realise this is a different situation but the supplement issue is the same. In Elsworth's case I would not use much liquid and make sure he is fed all of it with the chicken. If you can add turkey as well so much the better but I can understand your caution. My cats eat mainly home cooked meat and they all have for over 16 years and they thrive. (I do add vitamins and minerals.) As has already been mentioned it is the only way to know exactly what they are eating. Another added bonus is the reduced quantity and excellent quality of the offerings in the tray!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

QOTN said:


> Many years ago, a friend had two of her cats referred to the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket. They told her that an 8 week novel protein diet should be fed without any supplements and there was no risk of deficiency in that time. I realise this is a different situation but the supplement issue is the same. In Elsworth's case I would not use much liquid and make sure he is fed all of it with the chicken. If you can add turkey as well so much the better but I can understand your caution. My cats eat mainly home cooked meat and they all have for over 16 years and they thrive. (I do add vitamins and minerals.) As has already been mentioned it is the only way to know exactly what they are eating. Another added bonus is the reduced quantity and excellent quality of the offerings in the tray!


I might try turkey in a week or so. Will see how we get on with consistent chicken. At work until 3 so I'm hoping that when I get home we will have good results...fingers crossed!


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Many years ago, a friend had two of her cats referred to the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket. They told her that an 8 week novel protein diet should be fed without any supplements and there was no risk of deficiency in that time. I realise this is a different situation but the supplement issue is the same. In Elsworth's case I would not use much liquid and make sure he is fed all of it with the chicken. If you can add turkey as well so much the better but I can understand your caution. My cats eat mainly home cooked meat and they all have for over 16 years and they thrive. (I do add vitamins and minerals.) As has already been mentioned it is the only way to know exactly what they are eating. Another added bonus is the reduced quantity and excellent quality of the offerings in the tray!


What vitamins and minerals do you add, is it a pre-mix or a home made concoction? Thanks.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Satori said:


> What vitamins and minerals do you add, is it a pre-mix or a home made concoction? Thanks.


Ha ha, I sent a PM asking QOTN to start a new thread with this info as I was interested too.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I have replied to Paddypaws! I am afraid you may be very disappointed but I do not even use a cat specific supplement. I have used Vit 2000 for years. It does not contain vitamin B but I think my cooking processes preserve the natural form so I do not worry. I no longer supplement taurine because, unlike you, Satori, I have not discovered any research which contradicts the Spitze study. I would love to see it but probably would not change what I do since it works for my cats.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Poo next to litter tray on the carpet  

He has had nothing to eat all day but chicken and his poo is completely normal. 

I don't understand why he has used the tray 3 days in a row then it changes. 

I will keep him on the chicken for a bit anyway just to confirm if it is a diet thing. 

If I crate him he will presumably be forced to use the tray but as soon as he is out of the tray he will have no reason to as even the smallest of rooms allow space to poo outside of it.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> > If I crate him he will presumably be forced to use the tray but as soon as he is out of the tray he will have no reason to as even the smallest of rooms allow space to poo outside of it.
> 
> 
> That is always the risk I'm afraid.
> ...


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> oggers86 said:
> 
> 
> > That is always the risk I'm afraid.
> ...


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

First overnight crating over and I already feel horrible. Had to let him into the lounge whilst I cleaned everything as he had got water and litter everywhere but he went to hide behind the tv. 

Put him back in with his breakfast, hopefully he will do a poo in the tray later and not in the corner of the crate otherwise I need to swap for a bigger tray. 

Is there anything I can do to keep him entertained? I am worried about him getting bored or going crazy.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I sympathise with you, crating can be an upsetting process for both cat and owner. Crating is a big time commitment IME as you have to give the caged cat much more one-to-one attention than you might do when he is free to wander around. 

To keep him entertained you need to sit by him a lot to keep him company, pay him attention, chat to him, play games with feather wands through the bars. Feed him treats. Also I'd put the crate by you in the bedroom overnight. He probably feels he is being punished, so you have to give him as much reassurance as possible by your behaviour that this is not the case.

Good luck.


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Oggers I just had a brain wave!  

Hubby has refused point blank that you can't get another meezer, right? 

Get a PUPPY!!! 

Then he/she can sit in the crate and keep Elsworth company


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

MollyMilo said:


> Oggers I just had a brain wave!
> 
> Hubby has refused point blank that you can't get another meezer, right?
> 
> ...


Aww. That sounds really sweet actually. X


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Oggers I just had a brain wave!
> 
> Hubby has refused point blank that you can't get another meezer, right?
> 
> ...


Lol that's one way to send me straight to insanity!

Definitely no puppies!


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

How's it going hun?


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

moggie14 said:


> How's it going hun?


He has done a poo in the tray so that's good. He is allowed out of the crate to interact with us and have a run around but he goes back in when we can't watch him.

Generally he seems ok about it. When we had Elise in it for her broken ribs she either sat in her litter tray or tried to climb the bars. Elsworth either sleeps on or in his igloo or just sits watching us or the other two.

My felini has arrived so I'm hoping he will eat it in his chicken. Next step will be fresh turkey then chicken ropocat.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Well that's good, baby steps and all that. Pleased he's not too miserable


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

moggie14 said:


> Well that's good, baby steps and all that. Pleased he's not too miserable


He definitely doesn't like it but he doesn't hate us so it can't be that bad.

His enclosure has arrived today so we will be building it at the weekend ready for him. Have also got a pet remedy and feliway plugged in, can't hurt to try it again.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

A certain someone didn't get the message about not playing with food. He is flinging his chicken around the lounge like a mad thing. Good job I have a cleaning weekend planned!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Goodness, have you given him the whole drumstick just as it comes, on the bone? I imagine he might enjoy flinging that around! Just as long as he doesn't try and eat the bone.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Goodness, have you given him the whole drumstick just as it comes, on the bone? I imagine he might enjoy flinging that around! Just as long as he doesn't try and eat the bone.


Haha no just chunks but he does enjoy playing with his food. He pulls it out of the bowl with his paw and either eats it or plays with it.

All the bones from 2 packs of drumsticks are currently simmering away in the slow cooker


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Elsworth has been in the crate since Monday. He is allowed to stay in the lounge/kitchen but upstairs is off limits unless we have eyes on him at all times as the carpet is his favourite poo place.

He has had nothing but chicken, breast and drumstick with the solidified jelly which was the cooking water plus q splash of hot water to warm it up and make it more soupy. 

He did a solid poo in his tray on Wednesday evening but has not done one since. I don't know if the chicken is causing constipation or if he is avoiding pooing in the tray so holding it in. It is very unusual for him to go so long, not going one day is normal but we are now on day 3 with no poo..

In himself he is fine, still as lively as ever and eating so no typical signs of constipation, if he was an outdoor cat who pooed outside I wouldn't notice any difference in him. 

Have ordered some chicken ropocat so that will arrive next week to wean him onto.


----------



## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

What a nightmare situation for you  I really feel for you having to crate him 

Is it possible to confine him to just the kitchen maybe ? It would be easier to clean presuming you have Lino or tiles in there? And then you wouldn't feel so bad? Sorry if you have already tried this x


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Cats cats cats said:


> What a nightmare situation for you  I really feel for you having to crate him
> 
> Is it possible to confine him to just the kitchen maybe ? It would be easier to clean presuming you have Lino or tiles in there? And then you wouldn't feel so bad? Sorry if you have already tried this x


The kitchen wouldn't be a bad idea once we get his enclosure built and the cat flap in the front door for the others. The only problem is that the room is big enough for him to poo on the floor and it not be next to his food or bed. We tried this with the bathroom and he did a poo beind the sink 

He has been in the lounge/hen all day under my supervision but have just put him back so I can get the floor mopped.

He still hasn't done a poo at all today, just wees. I have noticed that whenever he does a wee he covers it but with a poo he leaves it uncovered in the tray unless he goes back in to use it. If he poos on the bathmat he tries yo cover it with the edges so it's a bit puzzling why he doesn't cover in the tray. If it is a territory thing you would think he would be pooing in the open and not covering it all. Mostly if he goes outside of the tray he does it either right next to or close by recently.


----------



## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

oggers86 said:


> The kitchen wouldn't be a bad idea once we get his enclosure built and the cat flap in the front door for the others. The only problem is that the room is big enough for him to poo on the floor and it not be next to his food or bed. We tried this with the bathroom and he did a poo beind the sink
> 
> He has been in the lounge/hen all day under my supervision but have just put him back so I can get the floor mopped.
> 
> He still hasn't done a poo at all today, just wees. I have noticed that whenever he does a wee he covers it but with a poo he leaves it uncovered in the tray unless he goes back in to use it. If he poos on the bathmat he tries yo cover it with the edges so it's a bit puzzling why he doesn't cover in the tray. If it is a territory thing you would think he would be pooing in the open and not covering it all. Mostly if he goes outside of the tray he does it either right next to or close by recently.


Such a difficult situation  Maybe you could train him , once he has used his tray in the kitchen , he can go in the house ? No tray, no house time ? Sorry, I can't think of another solution really other than crating and I can understand why you're struggling with that 

Hugs to you x


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I have given Elsworth unsupervised access to the house (crazy I know) but he still hasn't done a poo so going to ring the vets tomorrow. 

Have given him some kangaroo to losen things up a bit if he is feeling constipated after the chicken.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

So 2 nights of house access, first night he does a poo in the tray in the crate but 2nd night next to tray on carpet again.

I probably need to put him back in the crate again but I don't want him holding his poo because he doesn't want to use the tray. We went 4 days without him doing a poo until he had access again which was either due to being im the crate or eating just chicken. 

I feel it's time to get a behaviourist in and I am seriously thinking about Vicky Halls. Hubs isn't keen due to the cost so I am hoping the insurance might pay out.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I would suspect the chicken tbh. It is great at firming up stools where there is diarrhoea but then it is best to stop it as soon as the stools firm up again. 

I think it's a great idea to get advice from Vicky Halls! She is very expensive (about £450 per session I think) if you want her to come to your house, but if you settle for a telephone consultation it will be cheaper. 

Hopefully your insurance would cover you if your vet refers you, depending upon your Insurer. They may say there are cheaper behaviourists available.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> I would suspect the chicken tbh. It is great at firming up stools where there is diarrhoea but then it is best to stop it as soon as the stools firm up again.
> 
> I think it's a great idea to get advice from Vicky Halls! She is very expensive (about £450 per session I think) if you want her to come to your house, but if you settle for a telephone consultation it will be cheaper.
> 
> Hopefully your insurance would cover you if your vet refers you, depending upon your Insurer. They may say there are cheaper behaviourists available.


There is a cheaper one but they cover other animals too. I really want someone who focuses just on cats.

Thinking as a compromise to the crating I will put him in one room with 2 or 3 trays so he has a choice. At lesleast then he can stretch his legs a bit, look out of the window etc.

It's puzzling why he poos next to the tray too when the litter is his first choice when given the option.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

ETA it might be worth getting a phone consultation just so we can go over what I have tried. No point her coming if she suggests what I've tried.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

It must be in his mind some past negative association he has with the tray, which still comes back to haunt him sometimes. I think you've mentioned before that he had episodes in the past of diarrhoea? 

I have hopes of your outdoor enclosure, if you put one or two trays out there for him, that he will start using those in the daytime. Even if he goes next to the trays it will not be such an issue as him soiling in the house. Easy enough to pick up with a tissue off concrete and then a quick clean with e.g. UrineOff.

I agree - no point in spending a fortune consulting Vicky Halls if she is going to be telling you to try things you've already tried. May be worth waiting until you have the enclosure up and see how it affects Elsworth's behaviour?


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

mmmm if he refuses to use the tray in the crate but then poops on the carpet more or less as soon as he's let out, then it really does sound like he's got a huge aversion to pooping in the tray itself 

I know you've tried covered & uncovered trays but I'm wondering if it's worth trying something (sorry if I've missed you doing this), something really shallow like a tea tray (you can pick these up for a couple £ in The Range if you've one nearby) with a tiny bit of litter on - and maybe a 2nd one with say a puppy training pad on


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> mmmm if he refuses to use the tray in the crate but then poops on the carpet more or less as soon as he's let out, then it really does sound like he's got a huge aversion to pooping in the tray itself
> 
> I know you've tried covered & uncovered trays but I'm wondering if it's worth trying something (sorry if I've missed you doing this), something really shallow like a tea tray (you can pick these up for a couple £ in The Range if you've one nearby) with a tiny bit of litter on - and maybe a 2nd one with say a puppy training pad on


We have a small tray in his crate which isn't too high although granted not shallow. Can try a tea tray I suppose as they are cheap.

Tried a human incontinence pad in a tray but it was ignored. He even pooed right next to it!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> It must be in his mind some past negative association he has with the tray, which still comes back to haunt him sometimes. I think you've mentioned before that he had episodes in the past of diarrhoea?
> 
> I have hopes of your outdoor enclosure, if you put one or two trays out there for him, that he will start using those in the daytime. Even if he goes next to the trays it will not be such an issue as him soiling in the house. Easy enough to pick up with a tissue off concrete and then a quick clean with e.g. UrineOff.
> 
> I agree - no point in spending a fortune consulting Vicky Halls if she is going to be telling you to try things you've already tried. May be worth waiting until you have the enclosure up and see how it affects Elsworth's behaviour?


He has had soft poo occasionally, not to the stage of liquid but not properly formed. He used to do small round poo balls which I thought might be constipation but lately they seem more poo shape.

Think it is worth waiting for the enclosure, maybe he is upset that he can't go outside like the others can. He does sometimes meow at the front door but is usually easily distracted.

As you know I don't want him free roaming but what if it does the trick? If nothing else will work then it's either that or finding a new home. I can't cope with this and a baby and I have tried so so hard to fix this. I would never get rid of him because of a baby without good reason. Is it selfish of me to let him roam because I want him to stay with me or find him an indoor home where he is safe?

All of this is worst case scenario when there is nothing else to try. I really want to fix this so I don't have to let him out or find him a new home. Its especially hard because I feel I have a much stronger bond with him than I do with the others.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> We have a small tray in his crate which isn't too high although granted not shallow. Can try a tea tray I suppose as they are cheap.
> 
> Tried a human incontinence pad *in a tray *but it was ignored. He even pooed right next to it!


BUT it was still in a tray - how high were the sides?

Unless really shallow then he might still have been put off just by it being in there.

I'd say a tea tray is def worth a shot - I've one sitting here and it's really only about 1cm at the sides so def shallow enough to be totally different from any litter tray I can think of ..... try with either with a little litter or even just a bit of newspaper in the bottom .....



oggers86 said:


> Think it is worth waiting for the enclosure, maybe he is upset that he can't go outside like the others can. He does sometimes meow at the front door but is usually easily distracted.
> 
> As you know I don't want him free roaming but what if it does the trick? If nothing else will work then it's either that or finding a new home. I can't cope with this and a baby and I have tried so so hard to fix this. I would never get rid of him because of a baby without good reason. Is it selfish of me to let him roam because I want him to stay with me or find him an indoor home where he is safe?


Fingers crossed the enclosure will help - when it is due to arrive and will he be able to access it 24/7?

Difficult one - I tried to rehome Mia (sadly it didn't work out and I have her back - which is, fingers crossed going OK but it's by no means ideal for either cat ) BUT it was because I thought it was best for her to be where there were no other cats (it failed as she could see them outside)

If you rehome him without knowing what is causing him to do this - then how is it going to be any better for him? (sorry)


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> BUT it was still in a tray - how high were the sides?
> 
> Unless really shallow then he might still have been put off just by it being in there.
> 
> ...


Not sure about 24/7, there is no reason not to I suppose, ir is completely escape proof so no danger of him getting out.

As far as rehoming goes I really don't want to but I really don't want poo on the floor when kids are around, not only for their sake but I don't want to have to be wondering what to do first, attend to baby, toddler or go looking for cat poo before toddler finds it (assuming we have 2 kids as planned)

I know that sounds harsh but if it comes to trying everything else I don't see how I am left with an option. If I wasn't planning on having kids then it would be cope able but kids have always been the plan as I told the breeders. I wouldn't give any of my cats away unless I had really tried everything in my power to fix the problem.

Again I really am talking last resort here, if I was going to rehome him because I couldn't be bothered anymore I wouldn't be posting so many threads, spending money on behaviourists, vet visits and spending my time researching house soiling in the hope I can find a solution. Nothing would be done without asking the behaviourist and speaking to his breeder.

I'll definitely try the tray thing, will pick one up this week and see how we get on.

At the moment we have 4 trays but one of them he never uses even though it used to be one of the most used ones. It isn't the fact of it being covered as he uses the identical one in the kitchen happily (wees mainly but we have had the odd poo in there)


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Fingers crossed you do find something that helps .... wouldn't life be so much simpler sometimes if they could just tell us what the problem is / we could reassure them that whatever 'bad thing' they think is going to happen - isn't


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Fingers crossed you do find something that helps .... wouldn't life be so much simpler sometimes if they could just tell us what the problem is / we could reassure them that whatever 'bad thing' they think is going to happen - isn't


I wish he could tell me so I can fix it.

He is currently happily watching BBC Wild at Heart fascinated by all the animals, he's a cutie.


----------



## flev (Mar 6, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Fingers crossed you do find something that helps .... wouldn't life be so much simpler sometimes if they could just tell us what the problem is / we could reassure them that whatever 'bad thing' they think is going to happen - isn't


Pretty much any problem we have with our furries would be sooooo much easier to solve if only we could have 5 mins of proper conversation with them...

Oggers, I don't think anyone could accuse you of giving up too easily on Elsworth, it's very obvious how much you care and how much you're willing to try to help him. Every time you post a positive sign I keep hoping this is the breakthrough you need - sending many positive thoughts for you and him, and really hoping that the outdoor space will help him.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Hey Oggers, I quietly still cheer you on. You've tried so many different things. 

I read in my lunch break today the February issue of Your Cat magazine and would like to share a paragraph from an article by a behaviourist Anita Kelsey Does your cat love you back?

"Depression and boredom in a cat can manifest itself in many ways from over-grooming, constant vocalisation and eliminating outside of the litter tray, through to sleeping all the time. Some cats will display unwanted behaviours because they know attention will be forthcoming" 

So it's a very wild guess but ... do you make any fuss over Elsworth just after you cleaned up his poop or even when you just found his poop? Is there any chance he might associate the inappropriate elimination with you giving him "extra" attention even if it's only talking at him. What do you think?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I like LL's tea tray idea:thumbsup: 

I meant to ask you before, when you put incontinence pads next to the litter trays, did he poo on the pads or avoid them and use the carpet? 

If you were to reach the point of having tried everything except letting him out to roam, then I would ask you how safe is your area? You allow your 2 girls to go out, so I assume it must be pretty safe from traffic. 

Some people do allow their Siamese out to roam. I may have mentioned my neighbour who has only ever had (neutered) male Siamese cats all her life, and has always allowed them out to roam. She does so because she regards it as essential for their emotional well being. When she has tried keeping them indoors past 9 mths old they became bored and destructive. 

Her Siamese seem very sensible outdoors and none has ever come to any harm, other than an occasional fight with other male cats in the area. (we live in a quiet cul-de-sac btw).

Of course I'm not saying it would be an ideal solution to let Elsworth roam, but maybe it wouldn't be as risky as you fear? In any case I would regard it as a much better option than rehoming him, which would be stressful for him and very upsetting for you. For a start you'd have to find someone who would be willing to adopt him knowing he has the soiling problem, and that in itself wouldn't be easy I can tell you. 

There is no certainty the soiling problem would disappear in a new home, and if it resurfaced it could result in him being rehomed again to someone else, and then maybe passed on again, possibly ending up in a Rescue. That is worse case scenario of course. 

Just trying to be realistic hun, sorry.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> Hey Oggers, I quietly still cheer you on. You've tried so many different things.
> 
> I read in my lunch break today the February issue of Your Cat magazine and would like to share a paragraph from an article by a behaviourist Anita Kelsey Does your cat love you back?
> 
> ...


I don't know. I talk to him all the time so can't say if it's more or less when I find poo. Makes sense though so I will be conscious in the future if it's on the floor and just clear it up without talking to him.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> I wish he could tell me so I can fix it..


Snap - I wish she could tell me what gave her such a fright she's now so scared of everything - and that I could reassure her noting can hurt her in the house


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> I like LL's tea tray idea:thumbsup:
> 
> I meant to ask you before, when you put incontinence pads next to the litter trays, did he poo on the pads or avoid them and use the carpet?
> 
> ...


In terms of outdoor safety I don't worry about the girls because they are sensible and this area is very cat safe. EeWe are on a dead end cul de sac with a kids park next door. The road leading to ours has speed bumps as does the cul de sac behind us. I just assume he would get lost or stuck somewhere but maybe I don't give him enough credit.


----------



## Faerie Queene (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi 

Have you seen Elsworth pooping outside his tray?
Or do you just find the 'package', after the event?
Is it possible, that he is simply, dropping it on the wrong side?

Does he need more privacy, for pooping?
Does he feel 'exposed' and on display?

I have 2 catz, that have poor, albeit intermittent, bathroom habits.
They are confined to the kitchen/diner - lino flooring - when I can't supervise them.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Faerie Queene said:


> Hi
> 
> Have you seen Elsworth pooping outside his tray?
> Or do you just find the 'package', after the event?
> ...


Definitely not accidental, it is always nearby the tray but not always next to it plus sometimes it's next to the covered one.

In terms of privacy there are 2 covered trays he can use. Most of the day the other cats are asleep nowhere near them and we are either out or pottering around the house. There is nowhere in my house that is completely off limits to humans or cats.

I can't put trays in the bedrooms as I will just have to remove them soon.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> In terms of outdoor safety I don't worry about the girls because they are sensible and this area is very cat safe. EeWe are on a dead end cul de sac with a kids park next door. The road leading to ours has speed bumps as does the cul de sac behind us. I just assume he would get lost or stuck somewhere but maybe I don't give him enough credit.


It sounds as though you live in a very safe area for cats - which is great.:thumbup1: I did not realise it was such an ideal environment for outdoor cats, it sounds even safer than my area.

Siamese are very intelligent cats, and I see no reason at all why he would get lost or stuck somewhere.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> It sounds as though you live in a very safe area for cats - which is great.:thumbup1: I did not realise it was such an ideal environment for outdoor cats, it sounds even safer than my area.
> 
> Siamese are very intelligent cats, and I see no reason at all why he would get lost or stuck somewhere.


It is as good as it gets without moving to the middle of nowhere. I knew I would have no worries about letting the girls out, kids play in the street so cars naturally go slow.

Obviously there is still a risk but it is limited.

When I was talking to breeders I did mention possibly letting a Siamese out. My breeder is an indoor preference but I am sure she would understand if I decided to make the choice.

He hasn't done a poo yet today, he is out of the crate under my supervision and as yet hasn't moved off my legs. He gets lonely in the crate and is super cuddly when he is let out.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Do you feel that crating him is achieving anything? Just posing the question.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Do you feel that crating him is achieving anything? Just posing the question.


Difficult to say as last week wasnt the best to test it. He is now on chicken ropocat and the good news is he did a poo this evening. Hubs shut him in for a bit and was luckily there to see him in the process so able to praise him for using the tray that instant.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

2nd poo last night whilst hubs was in the room!! It would be great if he got into the habit of going in the evening so that we know to shut him in so he is forced to use his tray. 

Ropocat seems to be going well although he isn't a huge fan. It's quite hard so I need to mash it up with water to make it more appetising. Once that's gone I might try another single flavour like rabbit or venison.

What about flavours with things like cranberry in? Thinking along the lines of Macs Turkey and Cranberry if the only meat is turkey.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If you wanted to try him with Macs, I'd go for Macs Sensitive rather than the regular Macs. The only non-meat ingredient in the Sensitive Turkey is 3% carrots, a safer bet for Elsworth than cranberries I'd think. (Note they also do a Macs Sensitive Lamb). 

Pleased to hear he is pooing in the tray!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> If you wanted to try him with Macs, I'd go for Macs Sensitive rather than the regular Macs. The only non-meat ingredient in the Sensitive Turkey is 3% carrots, a safer bet for Elsworth than cranberries I'd think. (Note they also do a Macs Sensitive Lamb).
> 
> Pleased to hear he is pooing in the tray!


Oh good I shall order some of that then.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

So far so good, crate time if not supervised unless he has done a poo in which case he has the whole house. 

No inappropriate poos so on Tuesday we are moving him and the crate to the office and we will continue the process but without supervising him. Will put another tray in there so he has 2 to choose from.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

What about the OmmNomNom chicken?
Om Nom Nom Chicken 400g | The Happy Kitty Company

Its a lot softer than the Ropocat

Mia will eat the chicken Ropocat but struggles with the texture a bit but absolutely loves the ONN

Lily's Kitchen do a chicken can which might be worth a look too - again its a nice soft texture 
Succulent Chicken Parfait for Cats

Fingers crossed ........


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> What about the OmmNomNom chicken?
> Om Nom Nom Chicken 400g | The Happy Kitty Company
> 
> Its a lot softer than the Ropocat
> ...


He does like ONN but it's a bit pricey for a permanent diet but I am going to try him on some of the simpler flavours after this. No AC, Bozita or Smilla for a good while yet, will see how we get on with the others.

The girls can eat the kangaroo on rotation, wont be needing to buy them any more food for a good few months.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> He does like ONN but it's a bit pricey for a permanent diet but I am going to try him on some of the simpler flavours after this.


TBH I wouldn't even be thinking/worrying about that atm - at the end of the day, you need a food he can eat, tolerate and consistently produce normal poops on - if that means higher costing foods, then I'm afraid there's very little you can do about it.

I've been through this with my dog - it took about 6 months of her having one food before I was able to add a 2nd one without incident

It did cost a lot BUT I will say it can't be rushed or you'll end up back at square one every time (speaking from experience ) - it wasn't until I took it much slower that we really made any progress

Although the food cost more, it was easily counteracted by not having to be at the vet every couple of weeks or so - and by not having to buy multiple supplements (pro-fibre, diarsanyl etc) constantly - they all add up

It is worth it though - she can still only have either Chicken or Fish but we've now got a rotation of 5/6 good quality foods

She does still get the expensive ones but as these can now be rotated with the cheaper ones, it's affordable long term

Also, bear in mind that he may never be able to tolerate foods like Bozita, Smilla, AC  even Mia, who generally can eat anything, can't eat any of those for more than one meal running without consequences - they are very rich foods and not tolerated by a significant proportion of animals


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> TBH I wouldn't even be thinking/worrying about that atm - at the end of the day, you need a food he can eat, tolerate and consistently produce normal poops on - if that means higher costing foods, then I'm afraid there's very little you can do about it.
> 
> I've been through this with my dog - it took about 6 months of her having one food before I was able to add a 2nd one without incident
> 
> ...


It might be affordable now but long term when I don't earn a full time wage we need to really think about our costs. I don't mind rotating ONN along with Ropocat and Macs but to solely feed it every day would be extremely expensive.

The Zooplus foods may not be added back in as I know many cats struggle on those but if I can get a rotation of Macs, Ropocat, Granatapet and ONN I will be happy.

Maybe I just stick to the poultry flavours for now and stay away from anything too "meaty"

Will see how we get on with turkey, he seems to be producing "normal" poo on chicken Ropocat. It is firm but soft enough to get a litter coating but they see still small pieces. His breeder said his mum and brother do similar poo so it could be normal for him.

On a side note his enclosure is built and up, just needs a bit of tweaking before its finished plus getting the other cat flap in the front door then we are good to go! Well providing we can teach him to use a cat flap...


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Fantastic news re the enclosure - I'm sure he'll pick up the flap as he'll see the girls using theirs! 


Re Ropocat - I've got cans of Game, Venison, Lamb & pretty sure there's a Rabbit somewhere (discovered she won't eat anything with either Lamb or Rabbit in ) here if you want to try any of them


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Fantastic news re the enclosure - I'm sure he'll pick up the flap as he'll see the girls using theirs!
> 
> Re Ropocat - I've got cans of Game, Venison, Lamb & pretty sure there's a Rabbit somewhere (discovered she won't eat anything with either Lamb or Rabbit in ) here if you want to try any of them


Thanks for the offer, I need to wait a bit to make room in my cupboard but if you still have them lying around in a few weeks I will buy them off you.

Put Elsworth out in his enclosure today but he kept shouting. He seems so overwhelmed by the outside that he does this all the time, the neighbours probably think he is being tortured!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oggers, as the weather in the UK is very cold atm, I'd only give him 5 or 10 minutes outside as he is not used to being out in the cold. Also remember Siamese cats do seem to feel the cold more than other shorthaired cats. 

My two girls (short haired moggies) will only spend 5 minutes at a time in their enclosure at present. They come indoors, warm up for half an hour then they go out for another 5 minutes.

Can Elsworth get back indoors whenever he wants? i.e. is he using his cat flap OK? If not then, he may feel he has been shut outside, hence the shouting.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Oggers, as the weather in the UK is very cold atm, I'd only give him 5 or 10 minutes outside as he is not used to being out in the cold. Also remember Siamese cats do seem to feel the cold more than other shorthaired cats.
> 
> My two girls (short haired moggies) will only spend 5 minutes at a time in their enclosure at present. They come indoors, warm up for half an hour then they go out for another 5 minutes.
> 
> Can Elsworth get back indoors whenever he wants? i.e. is he using his cat flap OK? If not then, he may feel he has been shut outside, hence the shouting.


He shouts when the door is open, he just likes shouting (He is a Siamese after all)

We need to train him to use the flap but at the minute it isn't fully finished so he is only allowed in it when I can keep an eye on him. Elise kindly tested it out for us, she has definitely decided it's escape proof after weighing up all the possible escape routes and climbing it. Once we get it attached to the house and sorted properly with him using the cat flap then he can come and go as he pleases. It is a bit bare at the minute with one single cat tree, what can I do to liven it up without taking up too much room?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Anything he can climb on will be appreciated. My girls love being up off the ground so they can see better what's going on in the garden. So I have 2 outdoor cat trees, 2 wooden boxes and under the covered part I have the Zooplus type Diogenes tubs with donut beds placed on top. 

Glad he can come and go as he pleases through the door.  He is probably shouting telling you all about it, I bet he is quite overwhelmed with the experience bless him!:001_wub: 

Any chance of a photo of him in his new enclosure?  Pleeeeease


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Anything he can climb on will be appreciated. My girls love being up off the ground so they can see better what's going on in the garden. So I have 2 outdoor cat trees, 2 wooden boxes and under the covered part I have the Zooplus type Diogenes tubs with donut beds placed on top.
> 
> Glad he can come and go as he pleases through the door.  He is probably shouting telling you all about it, I bet he is quite overwhelmed with the experience bless him!:001_wub:
> 
> Any chance of a photo of him in his new enclosure?  Pleeeeease


I will take one tomorrow and put it up. He is currently licking my trousers like a mad thing, must have got something yummy on them!!!


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> Thanks for the offer, I need to wait a bit to make room in my cupboard but if you still have them lying around in a few weeks I will buy them off you.


No worries, just let me know



oggers86 said:


> He shouts when the door is open, he just likes shouting (He is a Siamese after all)


Ahhhhhh I know that feeling all too well! Archie yeowls constantly - when he wants in .... or out .... or fed .... or cuddles ... or just because he feels like it  and he's not even a proper Siamese (have had them in the past!)



chillminx said:


> Any chance of a photo of him in his new enclosure?  Pleeeeease


Ohhhhh yes that would be lovely 

Would he play in a tunnel thing? That wouldn't take up too much room and would give him something to hide in as well

130CM Pet Dog Cat Exercise Funny Tunnel Cave Puppy Rabbit Kitten Ferret Play Toy | eBay

Generic Cat Fun Tunnel 3 Way: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

Much easier in the summer when stuff won't blow around as much!!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> No worries, just let me know
> 
> Ahhhhhh I know that feeling all too well! Archie yeowls constantly - when he wants in .... or out .... or fed .... or cuddles ... or just because he feels like it  and he's not even a proper Siamese (have had them in the past!)
> 
> ...


I have a play tunnel actually so that would be useful especially if I can weigh it down.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

As promised here is a picture.

He has been very good, left downstairs uncrated lastnight and he did a poo in his tray.

This morning he came in the cat flap all by himself. I am waiting to see if he can do it again. He still needs me to get out as he is programmed as indoor only but at least for now he should be able to get in when he's had enough.


----------



## Britt (May 18, 2014)

Paddypaws said:


> As Chillminx says, Inulin can have a laxative effect....in fact I use it for that purpose in Woody's food.


I found some food with inulin at Maxi Zoo a month ago. Would it work for Pooh's constipation?


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Britt said:


> I found some food with inulin at Maxi Zoo a month ago. Would it work for Pooh's constipation?


The kangaroo helped Elsworth when he was a bit constipated with the chicken. Long term it made the poo too soft but it seems ok with other cats.


----------



## Britt (May 18, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> The kangaroo helped Elsworth when he was a bit constipated with the chicken. Long term it made the poo too soft but it seems ok with other cats.


I noticed that Zooplus sells cat food with kangaroo but I don't know if Pooh is gonna like it, he's a fussy eater


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Britt said:


> I noticed that Zooplus sells cat food with kangaroo but I don't know if Pooh is gonna like it, he's a fussy eater


The kangaroo by Vet Concept is a big hit with all my three, one of which can be a nightmare eater when it suits her but even she loves it.

Tomorrow is the day Elsworth moves into the office with his crate and 3 litter trays. I am really hoping that the carpet doesn't prove too tempting...we have been doing so well the past week with him using his tray


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Aww thanks for the photo oggers! :thumbup1: 

My word, what a gorgeous handsome fellow Elsworth is! :001_wub::001_wub: And grown so big!! I am sure there is no way you could ever bring yourself to part with him! (But if by some remote chance you were to decide to, please consider allowing me to take him!)

His colouring is my favourite of the Siamese colours, can you remind me what he is? Thanks.

He looks as though he's enjoying his enclosure. 

Fingers crossed for his move to the office, hoping he does not equate carpet with places to toilet.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Aww thanks for the photo oggers! :thumbup1:
> 
> My word, what a gorgeous handsome fellow Elsworth is! :001_wub::001_wub: And grown so big!! I am sure there is no way you could ever bring yourself to part with him! (But if by some remote chance you were to decide to, please consider allowing me to take him!)
> 
> ...


You would only send him back for being a menace. Today he has been a bit of a hindrance to my housework, either flopping on the floor every time I turn around for tummy tickles, getting in the way or sitting on me at every opportunity thus stopping me from doing my jobs (I cant move him when he is being cute) He has upset Elise by touching her, she was perfectly fine with him rolling around next to her until he stretched out a paw and touched her, he is obsessed with either touching them or smelling them!!

He is a blue tabby so he has a bit of a tabby face, a stripey tail and legs and faint spots on his back. He is still tiny though, not sure how much bigger he will get in the next year or so but his mum was tiny so he might not be that big.

I am looking forward to getting the enclosure attached to the house and the cat flaps sorted so he can come and go as he pleases. I need to sort out a lock to put on the inside as at the moment it is on the outside which is a bit awkward for getting out into the garden.

I really hope that with 3 trays in the office he will use one of them, I have given him his favourite small lower sided one, a higher sided open one and a covered one so that he has different ones to choose from. I didnt have enough litter for a tea tray (or a tea tray as yet) but I may have to put one in if he poos on the floor.

If he has been using his tray solidly for the last few days is it likely that he has an aversion to pooing in it? He has not been crated the whole time, sometimes he has had the kitchen/lounge and whilst they have a hard floor if he had a real aversion would he not choose the floor (or even the sofas) to go on?


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

One more pic for sheer aww factor.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ohhhhh Oggers ..... he's absolutely adorable! 

How can something that gorgeous make this much trouble! 

Delighted to hear of poop successes - long may it continue ....


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Ohhhhh Oggers ..... he's absolutely adorable!
> 
> How can something that gorgeous make this much trouble!
> 
> Delighted to hear of poop successes - long may it continue ....


Butter wouldn't melt!

I have put him to bed in his crate tonight, I think he quite likes it now as he puts himself in there.

I might repeat the process of what we did in the lounge i.e. he only comes out into that room if he does a poo in the tray.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Mmmmm interesting re the crate - I'm glad its not stressing him

I wonder if its giving him a sense of security somehow?

Mia's a bit the same with her room - some days she's happy and confident and will spend several hours downstairs and even go outside eek: which does nothing for my nerves in case she meets next doors cats) - other days she hardly sets foot out her room at all but she does seem happy and not stressed so I really just leave her if that's how she's feeling


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Mmmmm interesting re the crate - I'm glad its not stressing him
> 
> I wonder if its giving him a sense of security somehow?
> 
> Mia's a bit the same with her room - some days she's happy and confident and will spend several hours downstairs and even go outside eek: which does nothing for my nerves in case she meets next doors cats) - other days she hardly sets foot out her room at all but she does seem happy and not stressed so I really just leave her if that's how she's feeling


It might be I suppose. He is certainly happy to put himself on it when he wants although unless he is shut in he doesn't really spend any time in it but he will go in it to use the tray.

He didn't make a sound last night but as soon as he knows we are awake he insists on coming out incase he is missing out on something.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Hmm well we are kind of on the right track. 

Elsworth moved to the office the other day and has proven to be good at using the tray. Last night we left him overnight having the run of the house but still left his 3 litter trays and food in the office with his cage. 

Got back this morning and there is one poo outside of the litter tray but also one poo in the litter tray. He has chosen the larger open high sided tray as opposed to the lower smaller tray he usually uses. 

Currently in the office there is one covered tray (he has used this) one higher sided open tray (he has used this) and one lower smaller open tray in his cage which is the one he seems to have a preference for. There is a larger open tray on the landing just a metre or so away and one covered tray in the kitchen downstairs so he could have used those two as well. 

Not sure if it is linked with us leaving him alone as we left him alone one night last month for the first time and he did a poo in the tray whilst we were gone. Plus he poos outside of the tray when we are home 24/7 so I am inclined to think it is not. 

We are going to put him back in the crate overnight and go from there. I know the crating is supposed to be 24/7 but I hate him being cooped up in there all the time with no real interaction. He wants to run around, play, spend time in his enclosure.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok so Elsworth will poo in the tray consistently when crated. When he isn't crated he sometimes poos in the tray (like the last few days) or he does a poo right next to the tray like today. 

He isn't consistent with the times he goes which makes it difficult. At such a young age being a high energy cat he can't be cooped up in the crate all the time as it just isn't fair. He has already proved he can use the tray consistently when not in the crate as when he only has access to hard floors he does it in the tray. 

Having access to his enclosure hasn't helped, the door has been open all morning for him to come and go as he pleases. He seems to enjoy his time out there though so it is probably giving him that extra stimulation. I don't think free roaming will help to be honest, he is obviously in a habit so giving him proper outside access is probably not going to make a difference especially if he is in at night and needs a poo.

I think he has come upstairs whilst I was in the shower and gone to the office to poo. When I came up he was outside and when I got out there was poo in the office and he was downstairs. He has bypassed the tray in the kitchen, on the landing and the 3 in the office so it isn't a lack of trays plus they were all scooped last night.

I think now it's time to remove the crate but shut him downstairs. He still has access to 2 rooms and his enclosure (although at the minute it's only when I'm home) so he isn't cooped up in a cage. I think this will have to continue for a number of weeks if not months. If he uses the tray all the time then we can move to the next step, if not then I need to rethink. 

In theory if he continues to just use the office it won't affect the baby for many years as we can just block that room off with a gate. If a child is old enough to open the gate and be unsupervised then it should be old enough to know not to touch poo. If Elsworth is shut downstairs at night then there will definitely be no way of a child getting to the poo. The only problem is hubs and I, are we going to reach breaking point if we constantly have to think about if there is poo especially when we are tired or stressed.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

It is interesting you have identified that when the tray is on carpet he will poo next to the tray but when the tray's on a hard floor he will use the tray. So he has made an association between pooing and carpet, probably dating from a time when he found it uncomfortable to use the tray and found the carpet more acceptable. 

I have come across a similar problem with soiling only on carpet before (though it was peeing rather than pooing). The owner decided to remove most of the carpet in the house, and keep the cat out of the remaining rooms where carpet was retained (e.g. in living room and bedrooms). This actually solved the problem - the cat used his tray most of the time, but when he had the occasional 'accident' it was easy to clean up from a hard floor, and no-one got too upset. 

With Elsworth if you positioned the trays on hard floors, and none on carpets, maybe he would use the trays all the time perhaps? I realise it would mean he couldn't be shut in a room with a carpet overnight, but you could continue crating him just overnight for the time being. 

Also, have I understood right he has stopped pooing in odd places round the house where there is no tray? If so, and he is at least always pooing right next to the tray (even if not always in it) then that is progress. 

I agree it is unfair to continue crating him in the daytime, when he is such an energetic active cat, and is enjoying his enclosure so much. 

Have you got an outdoor litter tray in the enclosure now?

The only way that allowing him to roam might solve the problem would be that he would most probably start to poo outdoors all the time, thus removing the problem from the home environment. Most adult cats who toilet outdoors stop using indoor litter trays on a regular basis. My boys have litter trays over night when they are shut indoors but never use them for pooing and only rarely for peeing.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Many of my Siamese and Orientals have had access to my cat proofed garden over the years and only one was prepared to poo outside. He only did it on freshly dug earth or on the top of flower pots. All the others have raced back inside to use their trays for both poo and wee. It takes all sorts!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

QUOTN, many cats do not like using their own garden as a toilet, instinct telling them to toilet at a distance from their home as a survival mechanism. This is why urban cats so often choose a neighbour's garden as their toilet (unfortunately for good neighbourly relations) 

I found when I had an enclosed cat-proofed garden the cats usually chose, like yours, to come back indoors to use the trays for pooing, though I would occasionally see one of them peeing at the edge of the garden, perhaps scent-marking... When I took down the cat proof fencing after a year the cats began going into the piece of woodland I own at the end of my garden, and doing their business there. 

As you say, takes all sorts


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> It is interesting you have identified that when the tray is on carpet he will poo next to the tray but when the tray's on a hard floor he will use the tray. So he has made an association between pooing and carpet, probably dating from a time when he found it uncomfortable to use the tray and found the carpet more acceptable.
> 
> I have come across a similar problem with soiling only on carpet before (though it was peeing rather than pooing). The owner decided to remove most of the carpet in the house, and keep the cat out of the remaining rooms where carpet was retained (e.g. in living room and bedrooms). This actually solved the problem - the cat used his tray most of the time, but when he had the occasional 'accident' it was easy to clean up from a hard floor, and no-one got too upset.
> 
> ...


The majority of the time he has pooed next to the tray when on carpet, on the odd occasion it has been on carpet nowhere near a tray and in the past on beds but I *think* we have always had a tray in the room when he has pooed on the beds.

I can try removing all trays from carpet areas, shutting all upstairs doors and see what happens. It does mean we are a lot more limited on how many trays we can have although they seem to all use the same one anyway so they might not mind especially as the girls can go outside. The amount of trays certainly has made no difference to his pooing anyway. We would have to keep an eye on all of their toilet habits to see if they were ok with having two indoor trays.

Once we get the enclosure fully sorted being shut downstairs all the time if it worked wouldn't be too much of a hardship. He would have his cat tree to sleep in, a reasonable amount of space and we spend a lot of our time downstairs so he can still snuggle when we watch TV. It would mean he wouldnt get to sleep with us at night but we need to start phasing that out soon as the baby will be in our room for a good 6 months and I don't want any cats having unsupervised access to the baby.

The other cats would have their cat flap in the front door and then have the upstairs as they can be trusted not to toilet on the carpet so they would be separated from him most of the time. Not sure if this is a good idea or not, they certainly wont mind but I don't want the relationship between them to deteriorate because they are not seeing each other.

Overtime we could phase in the access to upstairs, starting with just the landing then gradually opening up rooms.

He does have an outdoor tray but I suspect he isn't keen on using, it is there as a backup though and not taking up space in the house so no hardship keeping it there,


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> QUOTN, many cats do not like using their own garden as a toilet, instinct telling them to toilet at a distance from their home as a survival mechanism. This is why urban cats so often choose a neighbour's garden as their toilet (unfortunately for good neighbourly relations)
> 
> I found when I had an enclosed cat-proofed garden the cats usually chose, like yours, to come back indoors to use the trays for pooing, though I would occasionally see one of them peeing at the edge of the garden, perhaps scent-marking... When I took down the cat proof fencing after a year the cats began going into the piece of woodland I own at the end of my garden, and doing their business there.
> 
> As you say, takes all sorts


The girls seem to prefer toileting away from the garden. In the old house I think they did it in the garden of the house opposite as they would go out, straight under the fence for a few minutes and come back. I have seen them both use the garden here but it is relatively new for them so it could be them establishing territory before moving further afield.

Interestingly they only really use the trays for a wee, since letting them out I have never seen Elsa poo in the tray and Elise does a poo every now and again.

Cats are puzzling.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

chillminx said:


> It is interesting you have identified that when the tray is on carpet he will poo next to the tray but when the tray's on a hard floor he will use the tray.


So pleased this has been identified. It's a positive step in the right direction which you can hopefully build upon 
Is your whole downstairs hard flooring? If so I think it could work very well shutting Elsworth downstairs whilst retraining him.
I think things are looking up hun


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

moggie14 said:


> So pleased this has been identified. It's a positive step in the right direction which you can hopefully build upon
> Is your whole downstairs hard flooring? If so I think it could work very well shutting Elsworth downstairs whilst retraining him.
> I think things are looking up hun


Yep the hall, lounge and kitchen so the plan would be to shut the lounge door giving him access to the lounge, kitchen and his enclosure. The black cats will have their cat flap in the front door and the whole of upstairs.

With any luck he wont choose to poo on the soft furnishings otherwise I may have to get plastic covers which is a bit of a faff.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

oggers86 said:


> Yep the hall, lounge and kitchen so the plan would be to shut the lounge door giving him access to the lounge, kitchen and his enclosure. The black cats will have their cat flap in the front door and the whole of upstairs.
> 
> With any luck he wont choose to poo on the soft furnishings otherwise I may have to get plastic covers which is a bit of a faff.


Fingers crossed - he hasn't before has he? I know he went on the beds but hopefully your sofa will survive. Sending lots of positive and good luck vibes xx


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

moggie14 said:


> Fingers crossed - he hasn't before has he? I know he went on the beds but hopefully your sofa will survive. Sending lots of positive and good luck vibes xx


Definitely once when we moved in here but they were different sofas then. Cant remember if it happened more than once but it certainly didn't happen more than twice or I would have put it down as another problem.


----------



## Isisini (Jun 3, 2014)

I think there's a case study in one of Vicky Halls' books about a kitten that would only poo on carpet - will see if I can look it up later as might have some good advice for how she dealt with it..


----------

