# Sheep herding dog



## d adam

I am looking to get a dog which i want to use for herding sheep. I was wanting advice on suitable breeds for this but that would also be good with kids (my youngest is 2). I have previously been involved with the border collie breed but i dont have confidence they would be safe with kids. A friend of mine suggested a collie x spaniel, would this make a herding dog? Although i do want the dog to be used for herding, it would be on a small scale and im not looking for a dog to be able to perform at a sheepdog trialling level. Can anyone advise?


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## Moobli

There is no breed that surpasses the border collie at working sheep. How large a flock do you have? What breed of sheep? What will you require the dog to do?

I live on a hill farm, am married to a shepherd and we currently have 7 working sheepdogs (all border collies). Every one is exceptionally good natured with my son, who is 4 years old. My son was born on the farm and has been around the working sheepdogs since day one. We also share our house with three GSDs and they are wonderful with my son too.

A border collie x spaniel would be a huge gamble imo - as it may have more spaniel genes than collie genes and therefore have no interest or instinct to work sheep.


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## PennyGC

you need to look at the herding breeds, not retrieving. I'm not sure why you don't have confidence in border collies with children :-( depending on your circumstances a border collie, beardie, sheltie, kelpie may be suitable, and if you introduce them early to children and pick from a good temperament line of dogs they should be fine.... all herding dogs have a tendency to 'herd' children but that's something you'll have to train/watch out for, spaniels and cross breeds in general are probably not going to herd or be suitable with children unless you're careful about what you get ....


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## d adam

Moobli said:


> There is no breed that surpasses the border collie at working sheep. How large a flock do you have? What breed of sheep? What will you require the dog to do?
> 
> I live on a hill farm, am married to a shepherd and we currently have 7 working sheepdogs (all border collies). Every one is exceptionally good natured with my son, who is 4 years old. My son was born on the farm and has been around the working sheepdogs since day one. We also share our house with three GSDs and they are wonderful with my son too.
> 
> A border collie x spaniel would be a huge gamble imo - as it may have more spaniel genes than collie genes and therefore have no interest or instinct to work sheep.


I am looking to get a flock of approximately 50 ewes, at this stage im not definite on one particular breed but i am interested in Lylen.


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## Linden_Tree

A border collie would be your best bet in all honesty.

I have both working BC's and Kelpies, and i would not recommend the latter at all as a worker-come-family-pet. They are extremely nippy, and far more on the go than any BC i've ever owned. 

Beardies, shelties, roughs etc may suit, but for me, the over exaggerated coats are just not conducive to a working environment. Plus you can not beat the skill and talent of a collie when working sheep.


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## Moobli

Absolutely Linden - Kelpies are working machines and not for the inexperienced. I also think you would be hard-pressed to find a shetland sheepdog or rough collie that would have the necessary inherent instinct for sheep work. 

Have you kept sheep before d adam? Have you trained a sheepdog or were you considering buying in a trained or part trained dog?

I would definitely advise you to think again about a border collie. As long as the dog and child are brought up to respect one another, I don't think you will have any problems at all.

As far as collies herding children goes, I have never experienced this at all with our own dogs. Our dogs are all fulfilled with working every day and have never herded the children, cars etc.


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## PennyGC

Moobli said:


> Absolutely Linden - Kelpies are working machines and not for the inexperienced. I also think you would be hard-pressed to find a shetland sheepdog or rough collie that would have the necessary inherent instinct for sheep work.


Whilst I agree with the kelpies, it would be relatively easy to find a sheltie capable of sheep work ... plenty do it, quite a few shelties I know regularly works sheep and cattle to great effect and plenty of others do too


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## Burrowzig

You could also investigate Welsh Sheepdogs and English Shepherds. They have the reputation of being calmer/less nippy than border collies. My Welsh girl is an ideal pet/agility dog, but doesn't work sheep (though both her parents do).


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## Wildmoor

I have never had herding breeds that herd children, it sounds like inaappropriate training/socialisation - an excuse for bad manners


Are you in the UK or elswhere
The Chodsky pes is an excellent herding dog always on the go but with an off switch, they are excellent with children even when not raised or socialised with children, dependent where you are there are many such excellent breeds.


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## d adam

Moobli said:


> Absolutely Linden - Kelpies are working machines and not for the inexperienced. I also think you would be hard-pressed to find a shetland sheepdog or rough collie that would have the necessary inherent instinct for sheep work.
> 
> Have you kept sheep before d adam? Have you trained a sheepdog or were you considering buying in a trained or part trained dog?
> 
> I would definitely advise you to think again about a border collie. As long as the dog and child are brought up to respect one another, I don't think you will have any problems at all.
> 
> As far as collies herding children goes, I have never experienced this at all with our own dogs. Our dogs are all fulfilled with working every day and have never herded the children, cars etc.


I was brought up on a farm where we had sheep and dogs. I was looking to buy a pup and train it myself. I havent done this before but think i should have a knowledge to do it. Any tips on choosing a border collie? I am based in Scotland.


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## PennyGC

Normal puppy buying rules - check parents are health tested, look at the home they're born into, mothers temperament etc... you should enquire about working ability as not all collies have this....


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## lemmsy

Please also check UK Border Collie rescues. 
Perfectly possible to find a young dog on there who will be good with your family and kids but will benefit greatly from a working home. 
A family friend for instance rescued a young bitch and trained her to work on his farm. She is a sweet girl with people, gets on with their other dogs (labs) and is so benefiting from a working home.


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## Moobli

PennyGC said:


> Whilst I agree with the kelpies, it would be relatively easy to find a sheltie capable of sheep work ... plenty do it, quite a few shelties I know regularly works sheep and cattle to great effect and plenty of others do too


Could you give me some specifics? I would love to see Shelties doing some work.


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## Moobli

d adam said:


> I was brought up on a farm where we had sheep and dogs. I was looking to buy a pup and train it myself. I havent done this before but think i should have a knowledge to do it. Any tips on choosing a border collie? I am based in Scotland.


Where in Scotland are you? We are in the Lammermuirs and I know of a great litter on the ground just now. In fact, we are getting our new pup from this litter later this week.


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## Moobli

lemmsy said:


> Please also check UK Border Collie rescues.
> Perfectly possible to find a young dog on there who will be good with your family and kids but will benefit greatly from a working home.
> A family friend for instance rescued a young bitch and trained her to work on his farm. She is a sweet girl with people, gets on with their other dogs (labs) and is so benefiting from a working home.


If you are looking for a puppy, word of mouth is best, but also check the Scottish Farmer and/or Farmers Guardian. Ask to see the parents working, check they are ISDS registered (which also mean both parents are eye tested), not many farmers hip score their dogs although some do. Check that the parents are also friendly/biddable.

If you are in the Borders, have a word with Tom at Arthurshiel Rescue Centre as they often get border collies in from working stock, who need to go on to a working home. We also have a young dog ourselves who is looking for a good, kind working home. PM me if you want more details.


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## Moobli

PennyGC said:


> Whilst I agree with the kelpies, it would be relatively easy to find a sheltie capable of sheep work ... plenty do it, quite a few shelties I know regularly works sheep and cattle to great effect and plenty of others do too


Still interested to know where I could find a sheltie capable of working sheep daily.


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## matt1wt

Go the working Kelpie but make sure you don't get a show kelpie as they are breed for looks not herding ability


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## CaveDweller

My old man is a Shephard with 30 Border Collies (obviously doesn't work them all at the same time) and everyone is brilliant with my two toddlers. He has been competing in Sheepdog Trials since he was 8years old and has won many awards, now at the farm he puts on daily displays of the dogs at work and classes for proper taining. He is based up in the Highlands of Scotland, I just moved down to south Wales a few years back.

If you get a BC from a pup and train it properly you won't have any problems with it around the kids. Yes it is hard work to start with as all they want to do is nip at them and chase them, but as I said with proper training the dog will soon get out of it and have respect for the children. To me no dog comes close to the BC for sheep herding, but that is my personal opinion with having been round BC's my entire life. It also depends how quick you want to get herding your sheep. My dad doesn't start properly training the dogs till they are about a year old. Obviously a little work befor that but nothing too hard on them.


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## CaveDweller

lemmsy said:


> Please also check UK Border Collie rescues.
> Perfectly possible to find a young dog on there who will be good with your family and kids but will benefit greatly from a working home.
> A family friend for instance rescued a young bitch and trained her to work on his farm. She is a sweet girl with people, gets on with their other dogs (labs) and is so benefiting from a working home.


Yes Border Collie Rescue are pretty good so I have heard from word of mouth. If you tell them what you want, like a BC that will be good with kids but also has an interest in the sheep ffor working then they will do their best to match one up.


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## Moobli

CaveDweller said:


> My old man is a Shephard with 30 Border Collies (obviously doesn't work them all at the same time) and everyone is brilliant with my two toddlers. He has been competing in Sheepdog Trials since he was 8years old and has won many awards, now at the farm he puts on daily displays of the dogs at work and classes for proper taining. He is based up in the Highlands of Scotland, I just moved down to south Wales a few years back.
> 
> If you get a BC from a pup and train it properly you won't have any problems with it around the kids. Yes it is hard work to start with as all they want to do is nip at them and chase them, but as I said with proper training the dog will soon get out of it and have respect for the children. To me no dog comes close to the BC for sheep herding, but that is my personal opinion with having been round BC's my entire life. It also depends how quick you want to get herding your sheep. My dad doesn't start properly training the dogs till they are about a year old. Obviously a little work befor that but nothing too hard on them.


Who is your father (PM if you prefer) as I may know him


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## matt1wt

Moobli said:


> There is no breed that surpasses the border collie at working sheep. .


The Working Kelpie surpasses the border collie at working sheep


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## lemmsy

matt1wt said:


> The Working Kelpie surpasses the border collie at working sheep


Depends on the breed of sheep, terrain etc...

There are different types of collie alone that are bred for different terrains (low lands, uplands) and different breeds of sheep (and their characteristics). The same can be said for Kelpies.

You get multi-talented dogs and dogs that are best suited to specific breeds and terrains and styles of handling/working and manoeuvres. 
All dogs are individuals; even within their breed and between breeds.


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## d adam

Moobli said:


> Where in Scotland are you? We are in the Lammermuirs and I know of a great litter on the ground just now. In fact, we are getting our new pup from this litter later this week.


Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I live in the very north of Scotland and was hoping to get something reasonably close to home and I assume the pups you mentioned wouldnt be? I have now been convinced to go for a border collie so i will just need to keep looking to find a suitable pup. If anyone knows of anything please let me know.


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## emmaviolet

Moobli said:


> Absolutely Linden - Kelpies are working machines and not for the inexperienced. I also think you would be hard-pressed to find a shetland sheepdog or rough collie that would have the necessary inherent instinct for sheep work.


Actually there are still working roughs out there and some roughs, alfie included, have a very high instinct, he herds people and runs in the herding way plus when we were next to a field with sheep he was alert and tried to herd them through the bars.

Here is the website of someone I have seen on other forums who uses roughs to herd the sheep.

roeysla

They still can be a working dog.


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## Moobli

emmaviolet said:


> Actually there are still working roughs out there and some roughs, alfie included, have a very high instinct, he herds people and runs in the herding way plus when we were next to a field with sheep he was alert and tried to herd them through the bars.
> 
> Here is the website of someone I have seen on other forums who uses roughs to herd the sheep.
> 
> roeysla
> 
> They still can be a working dog.


Sorry, but herding people and chasing sheep along a fence does not equate to herding instinct.

The website shown is a Norwegian site. I would love to see the dogs on the site working in person, or even in a video. I don't know of any RCs in the UK that herd sheep on a daily basis. I don't know a single shepherd or farmer who would even contemplate using a RC.

Some RCs may well have retained some inherent instinct, however the fact they are never used in the UK as an every day working dog speaks volumes.


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## emmaviolet

Moobli said:


> Sorry, but herding people and chasing sheep along a fence does not equate to herding instinct.
> 
> The website shown is a Norwegian site. I would love to see the dogs on the site working in person, or even in a video. I don't know of any RCs in the UK that herd sheep on a daily basis. I don't know a single shepherd or farmer who would even contemplate using a RC.
> 
> Some RCs may well have retained some inherent instinct, however the fact they are never used in the UK as an every day working dog speaks volumes.


I just summed up, however he does have a lot of herding instinct, having watched sheepdogs herd i see him do just the same and it mounts to instinct, it wasn't chasing.

I have seen the videos of the dogs doing the work and they are very able.


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## matt1wt

Try a working kelpie


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## Echuca Working Collies

d adam said:


> I am looking to get a dog which i want to use for herding sheep. I was wanting advice on suitable breeds for this but that would also be good with kids (my youngest is 2). I have previously been involved with the border collie breed but i dont have confidence they would be safe with kids. A friend of mine suggested a collie x spaniel, would this make a herding dog? Although i do want the dog to be used for herding, it would be on a small scale and im not looking for a dog to be able to perform at a sheepdog trialling level. Can anyone advise?


Hi D Adam

It's several breeds you can try if you don't want a border collie, like aussies, working kelpies, rough or smooth collies or maybe a corgi.
Check out the parents when you find puppies you want. The parents should be at least free of hipdysplacia. How is the parents temperament, how are they when working. Have the parents have litters before - how did the pups turned out.

I have used rough collies in herding for years now, and I have my fourth generation rough collie herder here at home. My Collies have been herding everything from cows, hens and sheep. My first collie, Samantha, also herded young bulls - she was a tough collie.

Good luck in finding a dog 

Sincerely
Elisabeth


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