# Cavachon Owners!



## kezibell (Dec 17, 2012)

Just came across this forum today. We have been looking at getting our first dog for over a year and decided on the cross breed of cavalier king charles and bishon frise. Having googled for months, there doesn't appear to be much about them in the UK, but it appears quite a popular breed in America.
However, we have chosen our new girl pup, ready in a couple of weeks. So I thought I would start this thread for other Cavachon owners, to share advice and experiences (and photos!)


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Great that you're getting a dog but PLEASE ensure that the breeder has performed any relevant health tests on the parent dogs.

As you will no doubt be aware, as a cross, your dog could inherit conditions from both the breeds involved. 

If the breeder has not done the health tests, then I would urge you to walk away - fast.


Also, I feel duty bound to stress that the 'cavachon' is not a 'breed'


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hello and welcome to the forum, I think there are a couple of members on here with this particular cross, and similar cross breed types. 

As OBAYL has said, I do hope the breeder has done any relevant health tests, I don't know enough about each pedigree breed to suggest what these might be, but also be aware that conformation can cause health issues, I think things like patella luxation is something you possibly need to look into. 

Edited to add, if you google cockapoo owners club (I hope the website is still up at the moment) this goes into some of the health issues with cockapoos and similar crosses. Really informative website.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Hi

Congratulations  the cavachon is amazing, we have had Rosie for 6 weeks now and we love her to pieces. She's so smart!























































Before we sorted her tear stains..









This video was taken about 2 weeks ago with her playing with my uncle.

20121201_110717.mp4 video by missrv1 | Photobucket

So happy there's another cavachon owner on here


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

20121021_140814.mp4 video by missrv1 | Photobucket

the day we chose her  Rosie is the loud one crying!

http://s1263.beta.photobucket.com/user/missrv1/media/20121028_111446.mp4.html

This is the day after we got her home


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm also going to stress the importance of making sure both parents have all appropriate health tests in place.

Cavaliers especially have quite a substantial list of health issues that can be found within the breed.

This website has some good information about what health tests dogs should have prior to being bred. There's also a page for bichons.

It's important to remember that being a cross breed does not guarantee the health of a puppy.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> As you will no doubt be aware, as a cross, your dog could inherit conditions from both the breeds involved.


Not strictly true with an F1 cross and recessive genes 

To the original poster. Don't be scared off about getting a crossbreed. It's important to do your homework though. Find a decent breeder who isn't in it simply to make money and will support you through the puppies whole life. They shouldn't dismiss health issues as no concern. The temperament of both parents is important.

Cavapoo - Dog Breed Health may be an interesting page although dealing with a Cavapoo (CKCS/poodle). Note the tests relating to Cavalier King Charles Spaniel would be the same for a Cavachon.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

The breeder should explain that they test the parents for the inherited issues (mainly around the KCS) they should also give you a guarentee long enough to get a vet check (normally about 4 days long)


----------



## kezibell (Dec 17, 2012)

Thank you MissRV for the pics, Rosie has the same colourings as our new girl. She's adorable. Has Rosie's fur faded around the ears and face as she's got older? 
We've chosen our pup from a household, not a breeder, we have visited the home 3 times already, we've seen mum and dad, and also an 18 month pup from a previous litter whose homed with another family. In fact my vet recommended buying privately and not from a breeder, so the pup will be used to the hoover, TV and other household noises.
In this day and age, with the use of google, I think the more I read about getting a pup, any breed of pup, its enough to put you off....so I'm a believer in, if it feels right, just go for it.


----------



## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

I'd expect the Cavalier parent to be MRI scanned for syringamaelia, tested for heart issues, hip scored, eye tested , over 4 ( epilepsy concerns).

I've yet to hear of any cross breeders who health test appropriately 

If they do, then I have little issue with them producing puppies for the pet market, but without doing things correctly I think it is very wrong.


----------



## kezibell (Dec 17, 2012)

MissRV, your Rosie has the same colouring as our new girl. Has her fur faded much as shes grown?

I have spent ages and ages deciding on a suitable dog, as I am more of a cat lover, but my hubby said I would love the affection you get from a dog that you don't get from a cat! We can provide a pup a lovely loving home and we are all excited and ready for our new adventure!

My vet recommended not buying from a breeder, and suggested a household litter so they are used to household noises like the TV and hoover, so that is what we have done. We have visited a couple of times and have seen mum and dad in the home. Also we have seen a 16month old pup from a previous litter, different mum but same dad. 

I know someone who paid a lot for a pedigree lab from a bred and its had nothing but leg and joint problems, so its never a certainty you will get a healthy dog whichever route you take.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

kezibell said:


> MissRV, your Rosie has the same colouring as our new girl. Has her fur faded much as shes grown?
> 
> I have spent ages and ages deciding on a suitable dog, as I am more of a cat lover, but my hubby said I would love the affection you get from a dog that you don't get from a cat! We can provide a pup a lovely loving home and we are all excited and ready for our new adventure!
> 
> ...


The issue is not pedigree v cross breed.

The issue is the HEALTH TESTS done on the parents.

You haven't mentioned which tests your breeder has done on the parent dogs....?

I'm sure you're aware of the serious and ghastly health issues which do affect the CKCS?


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

hi Kezibell

shes not really changed colour but shes still only 15 weeks, the 2nd video was taken when she was 7 weeks old at the breeder, theyre gorgeous dogs


----------



## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

kezibell said:


> My vet recommended not buying from a breeder, and suggested a household litter so they are used to household noises like the TV and hoover, so that is what we have done. We have visited a couple of times and have seen mum and dad in the home. Also we have seen a 16month old pup from a previous litter, different mum but same dad.
> 
> I know someone who paid a lot for a pedigree lab from a bred and its had nothing but leg and joint problems, so its never a certainty you will get a healthy dog whichever route you take.


Where do you think breeders raise their litters?

If this person has had multiple litters ... What would you call them if not a breeder?

Just curious, did your vet not talk to you about health testing? It is. O wonder that the public have no idea about buying a well bred heathy puppy if vets even have so little clue


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

kezibell said:


> MissRV, your Rosie has the same colouring as our new girl. Has her fur faded much as shes grown?
> 
> I have spent ages and ages deciding on a suitable dog, as I am more of a cat lover, but my hubby said I would love the affection you get from a dog that you don't get from a cat! We can provide a pup a lovely loving home and we are all excited and ready for our new adventure!
> 
> ...


Sorry, just seen this and I'm appalled at your vet to be honest, I hope they will pay for any vets fees should your pup be poorly from something that could have been tested for. I think it's very sad that people are being misled by vets in this day and age 

I am honestly not trying to be negative, I'd ask the same if someone was buying a pedigree, and yes, there are a lot of badly bred dogs around full stop, but buying a cross bred dog doesn't guarantee good health I'm afraid. And I'm quite astounded at your vets ignorance, my Labrador pups were well socialised, I stay in touch with all the owners, and have just posted off Christmas presents to all the pups. The pup I kept back is absolutely fit as a fiddle, I'll find out when I health test her but I can't see many problems tbh!

It really saddens me that people have this outdated opinion that KC pedigrees are unhealthy full stop, and cross breeds aren't. And I apologise now, I do wish you the best of luck with your pup, but I do think you've been seriously misled about health, and hope you don't have any problems in the future that could have been avoided.

I'll bow out now, I really hope that doesn't come across as negative, but I think it's important that people realise when you buy any dog, no matter whether pedigree or not, it is always important to consider the health of the parents.


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

kezibell said:


> MissRV, your Rosie has the same colouring as our new girl. Has her fur faded much as shes grown?
> 
> I have spent ages and ages deciding on a suitable dog, as I am more of a cat lover, but my hubby said I would love the affection you get from a dog that you don't get from a cat! We can provide a pup a lovely loving home and we are all excited and ready for our new adventure!
> *
> ...


Quite possibly the worst and most uninformed piece of advice I've ever heard. Vets do not get taught or trained about dog breeding, so in that respect, most don't know their @rse from their elbow in that field.

My mum went and bought a shih Tzu from a 'home breeder' without asking about relevant health tests, now we've got a dog who has luxating patella and hip dysplasia from about 6 months old! 
Had we gone to a proper breeder, who does health testing, whose dogs were a good example of their breed and see it evident in their hip scores etc, then we probably wouldn't have had all this heartache. 
Knowing the horrendous neurological issues Cavs can have, I would be extremely cautious and very, very picky about breeders, definitely not an average home breeder.
Bare in mind, a breeder that cares enough to health test properly, will care enough about the socialization and development of their pups, I'm not quite sure where people get this vision of KC show breeders keeping their dogs off in kennels where they won't know a home or family life - to these people, their dogs are their life and they do keep them in the home amongst the family.


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

"My vet recommended not buying from a breeder, and suggested a household litter so they are used to household noises like the TV and hoover, so that is what we have done."

I don't understand this. Anybody who has a litter of puppies is a breeder, because they've just bred their dog! ANY puppy has a better start if it is bred and brought up in the environment in which they will live - so if you want a puppy to live in your home, then the advice is spot on. Make sure the puppies were bred and brought up in a home.

I assume he meant avoid commercial breeders who are doing it for the money, where the litters are kepts in barns and lodges, and kennels and whatever else they use to disguise the fact that they don't have room in their home for more than one breeding bitch.

I keep getting puppy owners tell me this, 'oh she's not a breeder'. Yes she bleeding well is...

As for Cavachon not being a breed, I'd argue with that too. At least, if it's not a breed yet, in a few generations it will be. Or was the point that it's not recognised by the Kennel Club? Or hasn't been around for 100 years yet?


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

kezibell said:


> My vet recommended not buying from a breeder, and suggested a household litter so they are used to household noises like the TV and hoover, so that is what we have done. We have visited a couple of times and have seen mum and dad in the home. Also we have seen a 16month old pup from a previous litter, different mum but same dad.


What do you call someone who has bred multiple litters if not a breeder?

I'm honestly aghast at the advice your vet has given you, even more so if they knew the cross breed you were considering. There are some very serious health issues existent within cavaliers as a breed, not least Syringomyelia and Mitral Valve Disease. Even looking for a cross I would absolutely not be taking such an avoidable risk as to even consider puppies with a non-health tested cavalier parent.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BoredomBusters said:


> "My vet recommended not buying from a breeder, and suggested a household litter so they are used to household noises like the TV and hoover, so that is what we have done."
> 
> I don't understand this. Anybody who has a litter of puppies is a breeder, because they've just bred their dog! ANY puppy has a better start if it is bred and brought up in the environment in which they will live - so if you want a puppy to live in your home, then the advice is spot on. Make sure the puppies were bred and brought up in a home.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I just had to post to reply to this, I know I said I wasn't going to but no, unless they can breed to type over a number of generations, it will never be a breed. And to be perfectly honest, a lot of those who breed this type of dog, won't want it to be, because it looses it's cross breed status then, and the associated health, hypoallergenic claims that many breeders make.

It's as likely that cross breeds such as the cockerpoo and cavachon will become KC registered breeds as it would be for you to see me sporting a pink feather boa whilst out walking the dogs. There's nothing wrong with these dogs, as long as they are from good quality parents with good health, the same as any other breed or cross breed, but they are not going to be KC registered breeds any time soon.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

I think you missed a thread ?
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/277934-king-charles-spaniels.html


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry but I just had to post to reply to this, I know I said I wasn't going to but no, unless they can breed to type over a number of generations, it will never be a breed. And to be perfectly honest, a lot of those who breed this type of dog, won't want it to be, because it looses it's cross breed status then, and the associated health, hypoallergenic claims that many breeders make.
> 
> It's as likely that cross breeds such as the cockerpoo and cavachon will become KC registered breeds as it would be for you to see me sporting a pink feather boa whilst out walking the dogs. There's nothing wrong with these dogs, as long as they are from good quality parents with good health, the same as any other breed or cross breed, but they are not going to be KC registered breeds any time soon.


Well, I didn't say anything about being KC registered. And there's so many sweeping statements in your comments it's ridiculous.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BoredomBusters said:


> Well, I didn't say anything about being KC registered. And there's so many sweeping statements in your comments it's ridiculous.


Well I apologise if I misread your post, you did say it would become a recognised breed?

However, you're entirely wrong about my sweeping generalisations :hand:


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

BoredomBusters said:


> "My vet recommended not buying from a breeder, and suggested a household litter so they are used to household noises like the TV and hoover, so that is what we have done."
> 
> I don't understand this. Anybody who has a litter of puppies is a breeder, because they've just bred their dog! ANY puppy has a better start if it is bred and brought up in the environment in which they will live - so if you want a puppy to live in your home, then the advice is spot on. Make sure the puppies were bred and brought up in a home.
> 
> ...


You can argue all you like, my statement of objective fact still remains 

The 'cavachon' is not a 'breed'. Simple as that.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Did you not want to post here??...http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/277934-king-charles-spaniels.html


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Did you not want to post here??...http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/277934-king-charles-spaniels.html


No, not really, are you trying to make a point?


----------



## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

BoredomBusters said:


> ."
> 
> I assume he meant avoid commercial breeders who are doing it for the money,
> 
> ?


But a breeder of crosses is surely only ever a commercial breeder, certainly not working or show dogs .... Just to supply Joe Public who doesn't know how to buy a well bred dog 

What a shame the OP did not seek advice earlier


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Oh my grief


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JulieNoob said:


> But a breeder of crosses is surely only ever a commercial breeder, certainly not working or show dogs .... Just to supply Joe Public who doesn't know how to buy a well bred dog
> 
> What a shame the OP did not seek advice earlier


Not always, no, and unfortunately fodder for those who like to pick on people who believe in ethical breeding.


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

owned by a yellow lab said:


> you can argue all you like, my statement of objective fact still remains
> 
> the 'cavachon' is not a 'breed'. Simple as that.


so what!!!


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

button50 said:


> so what!!!


*sigh*

I've already pointed out that this is NOT a pedigree V cross breed issue.

However, when somebody states incorrectly that a cross is a 'breed', then yes, I will counter that with the fact - namely, that the 'cavachon' is not a 'breed'.

What is FAR more alarming, though, is that people are breeding CKCS without doing the vital health tests. I really do hope the OP will think twice if her chosen breeder has not organised for the tests to be done on the parents. The puppies could end up experiencing the most terrible pain and illness.


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Sighing is exactly what i do evertime someone points out "its not a breed" who gives a s**t we love our dogs. I agree with all the health stuff and checks but stop banging on about "Breeds" its sooooo Boring!!


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Not strictly true with an F1 cross and recessive genes


Actually, as owned_by_a_yellow_lab said "as a cross, your dog* could * inherit conditions from both the breeds involved" then her sentence _is_ 'strictly true'. There is nothing untrue about her comment because it still stands for 1. dominant genes and 2. recessive genes that both breeds share ::001_tongue:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

button50 said:


> Sighing is exactly what i do evertime someone points out "its not a breed" who gives a s**t we love our dogs. I agree with all the health stuff and checks but stop banging on about "Breeds" its sooooo Boring!!


It's usually boring to those who haven't a clue about health tests, and have bought pups from parents who haven't been health tested. Call me cynical, but that has been my experience so far.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> What is FAR more alarming, though, is that people are breeding CKCS without doing the vital health tests. I really do hope the OP will think twice if her chosen breeder has not organised for the tests to be done on the parents. The puppies could end up experiencing the most terrible pain and illness.


Yes. Lots of them are from all different factions of the breeding world - top levels of purebred breeders to the bottom and on to those that breed mixed as well.

The level of CM and SM is likely to be reduced in a Cavalier x Bichon cross as Cavaliers have a 95% affliction rate with CM, and 70% with SM in age. That is an unfortunate fact. There are no guarantees however and there are conditions in both breeds that overlap. Just putting any Cavalier together with any Bichon without care and aim is not something I would support.

I don't know what this breeders effort, aim or intent is so I won't comment on this particular breeder. For the OP, please ask a lot of questions with regard to what this breeder has considered regarding the health of the pups they are putting on the ground and how they are planning to support you and your continued ownership of this pup.

CC


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's usually boring to those who haven't a clue about health tests, and have bought pups from parents who haven't been health tested. Call me cynical, but that has been my experience so far.


As i said i agree with all the health testing etc.. Just the boring "breed" banging on is what is boring!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

button50 said:


> As i said i agree with all the health testing etc.. Just the boring "breed" banging on is what is boring!


You've got people like Comfortcreature who, believe me, could bore you to death with genetics if you wanted to ask her. And yet you're coming up with these sweeping generalisations? Why not take the opportunity to ask, and learn something? CC has posted some incredibly provocative and informative posts, and yet just because it's a cavachon, people seem to think we're anti learning, no we're not, we're anti bad breeding no matter what the dog(s) involved!

Edited to add, I mean that in the nicest way about Comfortcreature, your knowledge about genetics and breeding/cross breeding is incredibly useful and interesting. It does take me half a day usually to get my head round some of your posts though


----------



## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

button50 said:


> Sighing is exactly what i do evertime someone points out "its not a breed" who gives a s**t we love our dogs. I agree with all the health stuff and checks but stop banging on about "Breeds" its sooooo Boring!!


No one has said you don't love your dogs but what is wrong with educating someone as to what a cross breed is and what a breed is??

If someone had said its a cross breed so you can't love it as much I understand you issue, but it was simply pointing out to the OP that a cavachon is not a breed.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Believe it or not, these posts are offensive to a cavachon owner, making us out like we're incapable of doing prior research before opening our purses. What a shame that the OP has been prompted to 're think' her choice of dog simply because the cavachon 'may' inherit some health issues... if the OP were to start a thread asking if there were any fellow pure bread Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owners, I'm sure she would not have been met with such negativity regarding health.

To say the cavachon is not a breed is basically pointing out the obvious, it is a concatenation of 2 pure breads, yes we can do our research! However, if we were to say &#8220;I have a little cross breed puppy&#8221; that could mean anything! At least with a Cavachon you know immediately which specific mix the dog is  


Our breeders where we got Rosie from are ethical and have done all necessary health checks... I'm highly educated enough to do my research and I&#8217;m sure the OP is also quite able to have read up on testing for health issues and did not come to the experts too late!


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

MissRV you rock!!!


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I stated if it wasn't already a breed (ie recognisable characteristics that are passed down reliably through the generations) it would be soon. No mention of recognised by the KC. If the KC is the only way a breed is 'recognised' then I've no idea what my Greyhound is supposed to be, as she's been nowhere near the KC! Yet she's recognised as a breed!

Some people who breed 'crosses' do so for money, some do so for love of their dogs, and there are some people, me included, who are seriously considering breeding dogs away from the KC and recognised pedigree breeds for the sole purpose of providing fit for purpose, healthy, health tested, even tempered, ready for training, properly socialised and habituated dogs for pet owners. 

The amount of threads on this forum about reactive dogs, badly trained dogs, dogs who can't be let off lead, dogs who won't come back, bite, mouth, etc nice, pleasant tempered dogs who come already set up for training are solely needed!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Believe it or not, these posts are offensive to a cavachon owner, making us out like we're incapable of doing prior research before opening our purses. What a shame that the OP has been prompted to 're think' her choice of dog simply because the cavachon 'may' inherit some health issues... if the OP were to start a thread asking if there were any fellow pure bread Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owners, I'm sure she would not have been met with such negativity regarding health.
> 
> To say the cavachon is not a breed is basically pointing out the obvious, it is a concatenation of 2 pure breads, yes we can do our research! However, if we were to say I have a little cross breed puppy that could mean anything! At least with a Cavachon you know immediately which specific mix the dog is
> 
> Our breeders where we got Rosie from are ethical and have done all necessary health checks... I'm highly educated enough to do my research and Im sure the OP is also quite able to have read up on testing for health issues and did not come to the experts too late!


Well then I'd best go and delete evidence of me asking about evidence on another thread relating to a KC pedigree breed.

If you think you can hide behind the anonymity of a cross breed, think again, people are wise to this sort of thing.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BoredomBusters said:


> I stated if it wasn't already a breed (ie recognisable characteristics that are passed down reliably through the generations) it would be soon. No mention of recognised by the KC. If the KC is the only way a breed is 'recognised' then I've no idea what my Greyhound is supposed to be, as she's been nowhere near the KC! Yet she's recognised as a breed!
> 
> Some people who breed 'crosses' do so for money, some do so for love of their dogs, and there are some people, me included, who are seriously considering breeding dogs away from the KC and recognised pedigree breeds for the sole purpose of providing fit for purpose, healthy, health tested, even tempered, ready for training, properly socialised and habituated dogs for pet owners.
> 
> The amount of threads on this forum about reactive dogs, badly trained dogs, dogs who can't be let off lead, dogs who won't come back, bite, mouth, etc nice, pleasant tempered dogs who come already set up for training are solely needed!


In what capacity? Really?

I grow tired of the I've got a cavachon, cavapoo, jackapoo sort of thread, and then the parents are apparently health tested. So come on, what are the health tests you plan to do, I'll pre-empt you, and bear in mind my bitch is spayed, because she had the one litter, which I lost £3k on but no worries, her hips were 0:0, elbows 0:0, CNM clear, PRA clear BVA eye cert clear, and pups couldn't be affected for EIC because the stud was clear. So how many health tests do you plan to do? Because that's the minimum for a good KC registered breeder of Labradors, one of the most popular breeds. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Yawn! Sigh! Yawn!


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

missRV said:


> Our breeders where we got Rosie from are ethical and have done all necessary health checks... I'm highly educated enough to do my research and Im sure the OP is also quite able to have read up on testing for health issues and did not come to the experts too late!


Health checks and health tests are vastly different, just as there's a huge difference between health and genetic health.

Unfortunately it would seem a huge amount of people either don't know or don't care about health tests, otherwise there would not be the massive market that there is for poor quality pups churned out by BYBs and puppy farms.

Given that the vast majority of cross breeds are bred by people just chucking the two closest dogs together the chances are anyone buying one is not going to a good, ethical breeder.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

button50 said:


> Yawn! Sigh! Yawn!


Nothing to post then regarding health tests?

I thought so, opportunity missed really.

Of course I can give you my girls pedigree name 'Chapelrose Lala Tau of Tarimoor' to google, and the sire of the pups 'Balrion Weathertop John Barleycorn' so that anyone could see health test results, and CoI, but then I've got nothing to hide. What a coincidence!


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well then I'd best go and delete evidence of me asking about evidence on another thread relating to a KC pedigree breed.
> 
> *If you think you can hide behind the anonymity of a cross breed, think again, people are wise to this sort of thing*.


Who said anything about hiding behind the anonymity of a cross breed? On the contrary, I'm proud of my dog!

My previous dog before Rosie was a very rare breed, one who is known to inherit this that and the other. She lived to a healthy age of 18!



> Just came across this forum today. We have been looking at getting our first dog for over a year and decided on the cross breed of cavalier king charles and bishon frise. Having googled for months, there doesn't appear to be much about them in the UK, but it appears quite a popular breed in America.
> However, we have chosen our new girl pup, ready in a couple of weeks. So I thought I would start this thread for other Cavachon owners, to share advice and experiences (and photos!)


Can you point out to me where the OP sought advice on genetics, testing, ill health?

Maybe you should start a thread entitled "I have a pure bread"


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

I agree with all health tests as i keep saying, i dont agree with someone asking for advice and then because whatever they call their dogs isnt in someones opinion a "breed" then they have to keep banging on about it!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Who said anything about hiding behind the anonymity of a cross breed? On the contrary, I'm proud of my dog!
> 
> My previous dog before Rosie was a very rare breed, one who is known to inherit this that and the other. She lived to a healthy age of 18!
> 
> Can you point out to me where the OP sought advice on genetics, testing, ill health?


One who is known to inherit this that and the other, perhaps you'd care to elaborate?

The OP was asking about a cross breed, some people are honest.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

button50 said:


> Yawn! Sigh! Yawn!


You're rude. 

Why would you say it's boring to worry about a dog being health tested? I have to say you'd be a mug to buy a dog that wasn't health tested. I don't give a crap about the breed or cross, but I care that the dog is able to live a healthy life because the breeder didn't just throw two popular types/breeds together to make money via a cutesy name and chucking two random dogs together because they'll command a decent amount. If it's not to better the dog/breed/type, don't bother.

No-one on here has said don't breed designer crosses: all they've said is to health test. This is a responsible thing to do, no need for the baby comments of Yawn, sigh etc. Childish.


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

cinammontoast said:


> You're rude.
> 
> Why would you say it's boring to worry about a dog being health tested? I have to say you'd be a mug to buy a dog that wasn't health tested. I don't give a crap about the breed or cross, but I care that the dog is able to live a healthy life because the breeder didn't just throw two popular types/breeds together to make money via a cutesy name and chucking two random dogs together because they'll command a decent amount. If it's not to better the dog/breed/type, don't bother.
> 
> No-one on here has said don't breed designer crosses: all they've said is to health test. This is a responsible thing to do, no need for the baby comments of Yawn, sigh etc. Childish.


If you actually read correctly you would see i am all for health testing. It the boring "Breed" comments i am so bored of. Try having a read back!


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> One who is known to inherit this that and the other, perhaps you'd care to elaborate?
> 
> The OP was asking about a cross breed, *some people are honest*.


And off topic seeing as how health was not mentioned in the OP!

Yes, gladly, my previous dog was an Irish Glen of Imaal Terrier

The most serious eye disease in dogs, progressive retinal atrophy (PRA), can appear in the Glen of Imaal at 3-8 years old.

Hip dysplasia is unfortunately common in the breed. The Orthopedic Foundation of America evaluated the hip X-rays of 51 Glens and found 31% dysplastic. That's horrible, and the true rate is even higher because most of the obviously bad X-rays were not sent in for official evaluation. Elbow dysplasia is an equally dreadful 25%.

Allergies (which cause itchy skin and can lead to pyoderma) are a common problem in all terriers.

Heart disease (aortic stenosis) has been reported in the Glen of Imaal.

She died at the age of 18 of cancer, otherwise in very fine health


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

No surprise to me that I'm the only one on here to post health scores for my KC pedigree bitch, shame other people can't be so honest really.


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

cinammontoast said:


> You're rude.
> 
> Why would you say it's boring to worry about a dog being health tested? I have to say you'd be a mug to buy a dog that wasn't health tested. I don't give a crap about the breed or cross, but I care that the dog is able to live a healthy life because the breeder didn't just throw two popular types/breeds together to make money via a cutesy name and chucking two random dogs together because they'll command a decent amount. If it's not to better the dog/breed/type, don't bother.
> 
> No-one on here has said don't breed designer crosses: all they've said is to health test. This is a responsible thing to do, no need for the baby comments of Yawn, sigh etc. Childish.


Absolutely agree.

Whenever a thread like this comes up it has a tendency to descend into accusations of cross breed bashing and the like.

In reality I think very few people here would object to well thought out crosses, with a specific and sensible aim in mind (such as improving genetic health or lessening health effecting exaggerations) and using complimentary breeds and fully health tested parents.

Sadly the vast majority of these crosses are churned out by people who at best are completely clueless and at worst don't care about the dogs as long as their pockets are being lined by eager puppy buyers wanting the latest cutesy-named cross.

We who keep harping on about health tests are not necessarily anti-cross breeding. We're anti-bad breeding.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No surprise to me that I'm the only one on here to post health scores for my KC pedigree bitch, shame other people can't be so honest really.


Like I suggested, maybe we should start a thread about KC registered dogs  leave the cross breed fans to share pictures and stories of their beloved pets 

Bim was not used for breeding, especially as we adopted her at age 13... she too was a fantastic pet!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Like I suggested, maybe we should start a thread about KC registered dogs  leave the cross breed fans to share pictures and stories of their beloved pets
> 
> Bim was not used for breeding, especially as we adopted her at age 13


Was she from an immaculate conception, if not, then perhaps I think you need to look at health issues within a breed, or breeds.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Why when she was adopted?


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

button50 said:


> If you actually read correctly you would see i am all for health testing. It the boring "Breed" comments i am so bored of. Try having a read back!


I've just had a read back... the only one banging on about "breed comments" is yourself. One or two people correctly pointed out that the Cavachon is not a 'breed' of dog but a mixed breed, nobody is being derogatory or nasty - just correcting the OP. Just like a moggy is not a 'breed' of cat, but a mixed breed. You seem to be the only person making a fuss out of it


----------



## Guest (Dec 18, 2012)

missRV said:


> Believe it or not, these posts are offensive to a cavachon owner, making us out like we're incapable of doing prior research before opening our purses. What a shame that the OP has been prompted to 're think' her choice of dog simply because the cavachon 'may' inherit some health issues... if the OP were to start a thread asking if there were any fellow pure bread Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owners, I'm sure she would not have been met with such negativity regarding health.
> 
> To say the cavachon is not a breed is basically pointing out the obvious, it is a concatenation of 2 pure breads, yes we can do our research! However, if we were to say I have a little cross breed puppy that could mean anything! At least with a Cavachon you know immediately which specific mix the dog is
> 
> Our breeders where we got Rosie from are ethical and have done all necessary health checks... I'm highly educated enough to do my research and Im sure the OP is also quite able to have read up on testing for health issues and did not come to the experts too late!


I think another thing to keep in mind is the huge numbers of lurkers on this forum. Even if the information given here isn't useful for the OP, it may well be for someone lurking reading this thread. It may be someone who's thinking of getting a similar cross and it might just encourage them to look into health tests. Similarly, although the 'it's not a breed' thing might be boring to some of us, someone might read this thread and perhaps realise for the first time that a Cavachon (or other cross with a fancy name) ISN'T actually a purebred dog, it's just a normal crossbreed (which there is NOTHING wrong with...) and it might prevent them from being duped by an unscrupulous breeder.


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Not making a fuss at all just saying its pointless (i.e makes not a blind bit of difference what she calls it), and absolutely nothing to do with the original post!


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

missRV, I support good breeders - of mutts/crossbreeds and purebred dogs. I own purchased mutts (and a couple of taken in purebred dogs currently).

The statements urging this buyer to request health info are out of concern.

Every time a person announces they want a Cavalier . . . I ask about the health tests behind . . . for other breeds and mixes as well I will ask the buyer to make health inquiries.

I'll do the same with regard to those announcing Cavalier crosses. I don't ask for specifics but want to get the message out that buyers need to be asking breeders about their concerns for health in what they've decided to breed.

I will then fawn all over whatever photos they put up of he puppy they have brought in hoping they have used good judgement. That is cuz I happen to love dogs.

I would love to see more photos of Cavachons on this thread. I especially like seeing growing photos of pups that are white and sable, as the color changes through life are remarkable.

CC


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

kezibell said:


> Just came across this forum today. We have been looking at getting our first dog for over a year and decided on the cross breed of cavalier king charles and bishon frise. Having googled for months, there doesn't appear to be much about them in the UK, but it appears quite a popular breed in America.
> However, we have chosen our new girl pup, ready in a couple of weeks. So I thought I would start this thread for other Cavachon owners, to share advice and experiences (and photos!)





button50 said:


> Not making a fuss at all just saying its pointless (i.e makes not a blind bit of difference what she calls it), and absolutely nothing to do with the original post!


The Op asked for advice and it has been given over many pages.



comfortcreature said:


> missRV, I support good breeders - of mutts/crossbreeds and purebred dogs. I own purchased mutts (and a couple of taken in purebred dogs currently).
> 
> The statements urging this buyer to request health info are out of concern.
> 
> ...


I have to say, having read CC's posts over a few years, it really is spot on.


----------



## jarvisjames (Nov 21, 2011)

kezibell said:


> Just came across this forum today. We have been looking at getting our first dog for over a year and decided on the cross breed of cavalier king charles and bishon frise. Having googled for months, there doesn't appear to be much about them in the UK, but it appears quite a popular breed in America.
> However, we have chosen our new girl pup, ready in a couple of weeks. So I thought I would start this thread for other Cavachon owners, to share advice and experiences (and photos!)


Just wanted to say enjoy you puppy,bet you are very excited.
Been looking at some of the photo's they look very cute.
What name have you decided on for her ?


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Yet people who own Cavachons may well be put off from posting pics at fear of their dogs, or themselves, being judged in such a way! 

I couldn't care less about the whole cross breed vs pure breed debate. I've had both and as said before I loved both the same! I have no intention of breeding Rosie, nor do I intend on taking her to crufts, she's a beloved family pet, and this thread was initially intended on sharing pics, videos of our pups growing up. 

When my boyfriend's mum brought a Shar Pei home last year, I was the first to identify that his eyes were in need of pinning and the little guy was at the vets before the breeder could finish counting her money! 

I agree that some breeders do take advantage so maybe there should be a sticky as a warning to those considering a crossbreed? Maybe telling people what to look out for when considering a breeder? We spent months researching and lucky for us we found a good breeder!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Yet people who own Cavachons may well be put off from posting pics at fear of their dogs, or themselves, being judged in such a way!
> 
> I couldn't care less about the whole cross breed vs pure breed debate. I've had both and as said before I loved both the same! I have no intention of breeding Rosie, nor do I intend on taking her to crufts, she's a beloved family pet, and this thread was initially intended on sharing pics, videos of our pups growing up.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, on this forum, cross breeds are protected more than any other breed.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

And why should they need protecting?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> And why should they need protecting?


To be perfectly honest, from anyone who is willing to buy them from parents that aren't of proven breeding stock, ring any bells?


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Not at all  why should they need protecting on the forums?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Not at all  why should they need protecting on the forums?


Well in that case you should be perfectly willing to let people know the breeding and health tests?


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Well here is the website from our breeders, I'm not sure as to whether I'm allowed to post but hey some people are permitted from taking discussions so far off topic they're in a different timezone


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Well here is the website from our breeders, I'm not sure as to whether I'm allowed to post but hey some people are permitted from taking discussions so off topic they're in a different timezone
> 
> Buying a Puppy


check for permission, I don't think they will be pleased to have a link associated with this forum


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2012)

That website only mentions eye tests for poodles


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Link removed, yet you have access to the website....
So again, if there is no issue with cross breeds, why should they need protection on these forums?


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> That website only mentions eye tests for poodles


It does mention it somewhere for the cavachon. I have paper work and contracts from them which list the information. If you're that interested, I'm sure I can contact them as we're still in contact and ask for results on her parents!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Link removed, yet you have access to the website....
> So again, if there is no issue with cross breeds, why should they need protection on these forums?





missRV said:


> It does mention it somewhere for the cavachon. I have paper work and contracts from them which list the information. If you're that interested, I'm sure I can contact them as we're still in contact and ask for results on her parents!


No-one has any issues with cross breeds on this forum, care to share pedigree names of the half of your cross since we can then look them up? Me first, Chapelrose lala Tau of Tarimoor, Arrowhill stargazer for tarimoor, and of course Tarimoor Dark Opal..


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2012)

What are the parents of a Cavachon tested for, purely out of interest? 

I know there's a breeder here who breeds health tested crosses, but they are very much in the minority, which is scary considering how many intentional crosses there are around.


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

The only health tests they mention are the Optigen eye tests. Those mentions are all in reference to their own stud dogs, none of which are either cavaliers or bichons so no mention at all of health tests in relation to those crosses.

I also find it mildly alarming that they've not only got litters of three different crosses available at the same time but that one of them is listed as a "Christmas" cross.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> The only health tests they mention are the Optigen eye tests. Those mentions are all in reference to their own stud dogs, none of which are either cavaliers or bichons so no mention at all of health tests in relation to those crosses.
> 
> I also find it mildly alarming that they've not only got litters of three different crosses available at the same time but that one of them is listed as a "Christmas" cross.


The Op obviously thinks they're reputeable and that's what counts!


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Evidently there is an issue with cross breeds, especially there's a sticky outlining the laws regarding slating them on the forums! 

If you're that interested in helping us poor uneducated owners, maybe you should share your expertise on a seperate sticky for other potential buyers to see save hijacking owner discussions!


----------



## jarvisjames (Nov 21, 2011)

missRV said:


> It does mention it somewhere for the cavachon. I have paper work and contracts from them which list the information. If you're that interested, I'm sure I can contact them as we're still in contact and ask for results on her parents!


Please do not give your info out on here to them.
It's your info and they may use it against your breeder or do checks.
Ask your breeder first is the best bet,as she paid for the health tests and its her business.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

As a breeder and owner of Chapelrose Lala Tau of Tarimoor, I can honestly say, if I wanted to hide anything it's pretty futile. So, no one with cross breeds is willing to say what the parentage is, and yet here we are with one of the most unhealthy pedigrees, and Tau has 0;0 hips and elbows, is clear for pra and her last eye cert, and has fabulous ability, but people are STILL taken in by the cross breed [email protected]


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

McKenzie said:


> What are the parents of a Cavachon tested for, purely out of interest?
> 
> I know there's a breeder here who breeds health tested crosses, but they are very much in the minority, which is scary considering how many intentional crosses there are around.


Curious . . . what percentage of breeders of Cavaliers or Bichons do you believe are health testing?

I'd love to see you direct me to the website of a Cavalier breeder of which I couldn't find weaknesses with their breeding criteria and program (there are some but they are rare). I'm an equal opportunity critic.
-------

For miss RV and the OP, with Cavaliers the major problems are of the heart and of SM. They are also very much predisposed to cancer and intestinal difficulties (food allergies being a noted problem). Bichons also have eye problems and are noted for skin problems and allergies. Both breeds require eye checks and as well they both can have weaknesses of the patella, and with all small breeds heart health should be checked.

Parents should minimally have eyes/hearts and knees tested. It is best that the Cavalier parent be 30 months old (and even better older) to rule out early onset neuro problems (like SM) and heart problems. Cavaliers also have a 20% carrier rate for episodic falling and a 10% carrier rate for curly coat syndrome which should be tested for (by DNA) as that condition is in many small breeds and breeders should know if they are forwarding a risky recessive, even if the pups are not to be affected.

The most important 'knowledge' in both of these breeds isn't gleaned from testing. It has to come from honest information supplied on the pedigree ancestors about things like stomach ailments and neuro difficulties and cancer and heart health and allergies.

CC


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Good for you.... but is it a cavachon? Thought not, off topic


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

missRV said:


> Good for you.... but is it a cavachon? Thought not, off topic


And your knowledge on health testing ground to a halt when you realised you knew b*gga all about it.....


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> Curious . . . what percentage of breeders of Cavaliers or Bichons do you believe are health testing?
> 
> I'm an equal opportunity critic.


I've honestly no idea, though I would imagine it's not nearly enough.

I've the exact same low opinion of people breeding pedigrees without appropriate health testing in place as I have of doing the same with cross breeds.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

did I claim to know about DNA, health testing or vetenary science? Nope, is this a discussion about such topics? Nope well not until you hijacked it!

Clearly you DO know about the above so I ask again, why not HELP people and write a sticky?

I'd have much favoured coming on here to discuss how Rosie's colouring has changed since she has reached 3 months, how long her coat has become, sharing grooming tips etc...


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

I've been using Pethead products on Bubba he smells amazing.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Ooh pethead, is that the one in the fancy bottle?


----------



## Pet Services Kent (Dec 3, 2010)

missRV said:


> Evidently there is an issue with cross breeds, especially there's a sticky outlining the laws regarding slating them on the forums!
> 
> If you're that interested in helping us poor uneducated owners, maybe you should share your expertise on a seperate sticky for other potential buyers to see save hijacking owner discussions!


Hi MissRV, having read through this entire post as an objective outsider (!) I would like to point out that no-one has been slating cross-breeds. You have repeatedly accused others of hi-jacking this thread, when in fact it's your reaction to other people's helpful advice that has sent this thread off track and (I think) the OP running for the hills.

Rosie is lovely, nobody has any prejudice against her for not being a purebred or kennel club registered!


----------



## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Yea the really bright looking ones. If he's not smelling of Asian pear he's smelling of blueberry muffin at the moment


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Well, that's the first comment I've had on here since getting into the dabate (other than PMS) about my Cavachon which I posted a few minutes after the OP! I only joined the debate on this thread properly tonight a few pages in, the discussion had well and truly gone by then..... Referring back to the sticky about crossbreeding, there were so many replies going on about back yard breeding etc... all of which is referenced in this forum rule! Appears that some are above rules!

Anyway, I like the nooties spray from Pets at home, it detangles her fur lovely 

The OP has 2 posts to her name the first one and one commenting on my cavachon!


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

button50 said:


> Yea the really bright looking ones. If he's not smelling of Asian pear he's smelling of blueberry muffin at the moment


We're using the puppy love shampoo from pets at home, it smells like baby powder and she comes out so fluffy


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> Curious . . . what percentage of breeders of Cavaliers or Bichons do you believe are health testing?


I have no clue. I was just saying that I only know of one breeder of 'designer crosses' that health tests, but there are a lot of them here.


----------



## jarvisjames (Nov 21, 2011)

Ever you ever thought about doing your own grooming,its worth checking your local college for a days grooming lesson.It will give you lots of good advice and great bonding with your dog.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

I love that idea  I'm growing her fur long but it will eventually have to get trimmed


----------



## jarvisjames (Nov 21, 2011)

If you need any tips on grooming please let me know


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Sure will thanks


----------



## jarvisjames (Nov 21, 2011)

Oh and oatmeal shampoo is really good to use.


----------



## jarvisjames (Nov 21, 2011)

In Jolley's there's this lovely spray to put on smells of baby powder think its £4.99 a bottle.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> Actually, as owned_by_a_yellow_lab said "as a cross, your dog* could * inherit conditions from both the breeds involved" then her sentence _is_ 'strictly true'. There is nothing untrue about her comment because it still stands for 1. dominant genes and 2. recessive genes that both breeds share ::001_tongue:


Politicians often use truth to give false impressions. Fact is crossbreeds are less likely to inherit some genetic problems and produce a healthier dog than some pure breeds which is opposite to the impression given. You can argue semantics but not facts.



missRV said:


> if the OP were to start a thread asking if there were any fellow pure bread Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owners, I'm sure she would not have been met with such negativity regarding health.


One of the "crusades" I like about this forum is the push for need for health testing when considering a puppy. I see it being pushed for just as much by those wanting pedigree dogs as those without. I know Sleeping_Lion does it, I do it and many others. Before I joined the forum I never even knew it existed. The reasoning is simple and obvious. This isn't crossbreed bashing just a desire to increase the chances of a dog having a long and happy life. If puppy buyers, again both cross and purebreeds insisted on health tests many possible problems later on in life could be avoided and more breeders would do it.



missRV said:


> if the OP were to start a thread asking if there were any fellow pure bread Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owners, I'm sure she would not have been met with such negativity regarding health.


Frequently happens and health issues are always raised.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Unfortunately, on this forum, cross breeds are protected more than any other breed.


That's because KC breed owners tend to be more fanatical and I make the distinction of KC breed rather than simply pedigree. Trouble is this attitude often reinforces the impression of them being (tries to think of best phrase)... dog snobs. Any message they try to spread, such as health testing is seen in this light and can be counterproductive.

I'll say I have 5 dogs, 1 KC recognized breed, 1 crossbreed and the other simply breeds. All are loved equally. If I were to get another puppy I would insist on health testing no matter what and would encourage others to do the same.


----------



## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

BoredomBusters said:


> there are some people, me included, who are seriously considering breeding dogs away from the KC and recognised pedigree breeds for the sole purpose of providing fit for purpose, healthy, health tested, even tempered, ready for training, properly socialised and habituated dogs for pet owners.
> 
> The amount of threads on this forum about reactive dogs, badly trained dogs, dogs who can't be let off lead, dogs who won't come back, bite, mouth, etc nice, pleasant tempered dogs who come already set up for training are solely needed!


I dunno....Im a little...iffy about this statement in the context you posted it in. I've read it through several times, trying to see if Im taking it the wrong way, so I might be wrong, please correct me if I am.
But its like you're saying, almost, that pedigree dogs are a problem, and someone breeding crosses would avoid all those issues just by virtue of the fact that they're crosses?
Im not really sure what you're trying to say with the above, I hope Im not getting the wrong end of the stick, but I fail to see how moving away from 'pedigree' dogs would mean less of the issues you mentioned? Do crosses, or non pedigrees, not have any of those issues?
I also must pull up your mention of 'badly trained' dogs. Thats nothing to do with the _dog_......

I have a lead reactive dog (not too bad, but still, reactive) who I currently can't let off lead around other dogs, and who mouths, so I've ticked a few of your boxes for what makes an 'inferior' pet (sic)
But that doesn't mean he isn't nice or pleasant tempered, or that he isn't 'set up for training'. He is all of those.
He's a wonderful, affectionate, loving dog who adores people and picks up most things in so few repetitions it would make you gasp.
Its like you're saying dogs who have all, or any, of the above issues are inferior? And they have said issues because they're....what....pedigrees? And those issues would go away if one 'bred dogs away from the KC'?

My dobe has the niggly issues he has for a number of reasons, not _all_ my or his own fault, but probably a dollop of my own mistakes as a first time owner, certainly. 
But I don't know a single dog, pedigree or mutt, that doesn't have SOMETHING its owners wish it wouldn't do, and I know a lot of crosses who have far more problems than my dog, for one. I've yet to meet a perfect dog.
What makes you think that by swerving around and avoiding pedigrees, you'll somehow breed a better dog, or a better pet?
I worked in dog rescue for a few years, and most of what we had come through the doors were crosses, and I saw all the issues you mentioned, and more.

I also wonder what 'purpose' you think your hypothetical breeding dogs would have and be fit for, other than pet? (which is a fine purpose) Because if you're talking about working, or doing a specific job other than just 'good pet', the standards for certain breeds are such because thats determined to be the best model for the job they do.
Dobes, for instance, are deep chested and athletic because they need to run in their job, the standards for how and where their legs are, how they stand, how they gait, aren't just for looks and glamour; its to maximise mobility in their job, and efficiency in their work. 
They'd be no good at their work if they had 3 inch legs, or a squashed face where they couldn't breathe well enough to run. Thats why standards exist in the first place; to keep that breed recognisable, and functional, as that breed.
They don't pull these standards out of their butts, or write them up on just what _looks_ neat; they're developed over time because dogs that looked X way, did their job better than the next dog. 
If there were no standards, things would gradually begin to creep in, get lost, and in a few years, you'd have a dog that didn't resemble the breed at all, and therefore potentially would lose working ability, too.

If you're ignoring the standards, and still claiming to breed a dog that is 'fit for function' then Im a tad confused as to how?
Unless, as I said earlier, that 'function' is purely being a pet.....which is fine.....but which many pedigrees do fabulously, too. I don't really see a need to breed crosses specifically to fill that gap!

I guess Im just not seeing the problem here, and if I do, Im not seeing how hypothetically breeding 'non pedigrees' will solve it?

Im not a huge KC fan or anything, and I do totally agree that some breed standards have gone way beyond just 'what would make the dog best at its job' and into freak show territory. But at its heart, the standards did originally exist for a reason, and it wasn't just what we like looking at.

But again, its late, and I may have completely misinterpreted your post? And if I have, what a waste of time my blithering was! :blush:


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

shadowrat, just with regard to purpose bred dogs bred away from the registry, we have a few types - used to be called breeds but that word seems to have been usurped by those wanting to imply pure lineage.

JRTs and Alaskan Huskies are ones that come straight to mind for me, as well as some different stock dog breeds (I like working collies better than the purebred counterparts). Many of our breeds were developed and existed long before words were put to standards . . . Salukis, Afghan Hounds . . . being without a 'standard' didn't affect the vision of the breeders who developed them. Some of those were lost and some have lost direction as a direct result of registries and the club system, although generally that system IS where you most easily find the most dedicated breeders and some breeds have done well by it.

CC


----------



## kezibell (Dec 17, 2012)

Referring back to my starting thread, I cannot believe it has generated 10 pages of "chat", far off my request to chat to cavachon owners......thats "Cavachon Owners". 

Perhaps I realise now why I couldn't find much "chat" on the internet in general from cavachon owners in the first place....

I'm fully aware this type of dog is not a pure breed, and I used the term "cross breed" as this is how they have been referred to during all my research, even down to the pet insurance companies using the same term. 

I have satisifed myself with my own research on the pup I have chosen, I am happy with the info the "breeder" has provided me with, I am happy with the parents health record, I am happy this "type of dog" will suit our family.

SHOULD my pup ever fall ill, seriously ill, or have a lifelong condition, then it came to the right family to be loved and looked after correctly.

Thank you to MissRV for your interest, your Rosie is so cute and I'm sure she has brought a lot of joy into your home......something I look forward to having too.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I'd love to see photos and read updates of your pup kezibell. I have long been a Cockapoo fan and have an interest in both the Cavapoo and the Cavachon.

I believe that with the level of troubles we are seeing in Cavaliers and other small breeds, (but Cavaliers especially) that a well maintained and health tested crossbreed gene pool could be of benefit . . . wish there was less blood lost between the breeders of each type.

CC


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I haven't read the last two pages since I posted, but I was asked what health tests I might do before I breed. I can't answer that, as I haven't definitely decided to go ahead, but with his mix of breeds he'd need an eye test to make sure he was clear of problems, and that's it (having done my research!). Haven't picked 'mum' yet, as I'm waiting for Tinker to be old enough to be sure his temperament is something I'd want to pass down, and to make sure he's clear of Legg-Perthe's disease. So far, yes to temperament. Another 6 months to go to be as sure as we can be about Legg-Perthe's.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

cant wait to see pics of your little one  nice to see you have not been scared off


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

missRV said:


> Believe it or not, these posts are offensive to a cavachon owner, making us out like we're incapable of doing prior research before opening our purses. What a shame that the OP has been prompted to 're think' her choice of dog simply because the cavachon 'may' inherit some health issues... if the OP were to start a thread asking if there were any fellow pure bread Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owners, I'm sure she would not have been met with such negativity regarding health.
> 
> To say the cavachon is not a breed is basically pointing out the obvious, it is a concatenation of 2 pure breads, yes we can do our research! However, if we were to say I have a little cross breed puppy that could mean anything! At least with a Cavachon you know immediately which specific mix the dog is
> 
> Our breeders where we got Rosie from are ethical and have done all necessary health checks... I'm highly educated enough to do my research and Im sure the OP is also quite able to have read up on testing for health issues and did not come to the experts too late!


That's absurd. How can it be 'offensive' when we all ALWAYS recommend health tests WHATEVER the breed???

And no it is not 'obvious' to everyone that the 'cavachon' is not a breed. I've met people who thought it was. There are folk who read our threads without actually posting so remember you're always potentially reaching them too.

I mentioned twice about the 'cavachon' not being a breed and BOTH TIMES it was CORRECTING folk who wrongly stated it was.

You don't like that?

Tough.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

kezibell said:


> Referring back to my starting thread, I cannot believe it has generated 10 pages of "chat", far off my request to chat to cavachon owners......thats "Cavachon Owners".
> 
> Perhaps I realise now why I couldn't find much "chat" on the internet in general from cavachon owners in the first place....
> 
> ...


I really hope you have a fab time with your puppy and wish you many happy, healthy years together.

The ONLY reason anyone has been urging you about health tests is because, as I'm sure you know, the CKSP does suffer from ****horrendous*** problems which result in intense pain for the poor dog.

Many of us on here are passionate about NOT lining the pockets of breeders who ignore these problems and who ignore the need for health testing.

That is the only reason why some of us are urging you to find out if your breeder has done the vital health tests on the parent dogs.

You're clearly a dog lover - so I'm sure you understand where we're coming from?


----------



## white wisp (Dec 17, 2012)

my mum has a Cavachon as you all seem to be calling them.

so many mixes these days I just refer to him as a mutt 

she rescued him at around 8 months old (now 3).

I can confirm he is a lovely dog, unsure of any health checks as he was rescued but he seems well and no real problems. He has had collitus (unsure of spelling) once though but I keep telling my mum this is because she lets him eat left overs etc and also feeds him crap food i.e bakers etc. but who am I to correct my mum 

anyway as a dog he is fantastic really. absolutely fantastic with my 3 year old daughter adn I mean fantastic. prob because he is so soft. he submits to any other dog and just wants to play.
he is a bit dim on the intelligence side but perfectly trainable.

his fur is like a sponge which is a pain and you have to watch his weight a little. I make him run with me to keep it down.

but he is a cutey and as a family dog I could not recommend him enough. I love him its just my heart belongs to spitz breeds 

ill post some pics later on when I go see him


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> That's absurd. How can it be 'offensive' when we all ALWAYS recommend health tests WHATEVER the breed???
> 
> And no it is not 'obvious' to everyone that the 'cavachon' is not a breed. I've met people who thought it was. There are folk who read our threads without actually posting so remember you're always potentially reaching them too.
> 
> ...


no i dont like threads being hijacked! No one asked for infornation on health, there are plenty of threads already talking about health testing!


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

missRV said:


> if the OP were to start a thread asking if there were any fellow pure bread Cavalier King Charles Spaniel owners, I'm sure she would not have been met with such negativity regarding health.


As others have said missRV, that simply is not true. In my two years on this forum, I have never seen a post about king charles (or in fact any thread about someone looking for a pup of any breed) where health testing has not been mentioned.



missRV said:


> *Our breeders where we got Rosie from are ethical and have done all necessary health checks.*.. I'm highly educated enough to do my research and Im sure the OP is also quite able to have read up on testing for health issues and did not come to the experts too late!


Having looked at your link to the breeder, I am going to have to disagree. I hope this doesn't feel like ganging up, and what is done is done, but in my opinion a breeder that currently has four separate litters available and mention more coming soon is somebody that is churning out a large amount of pups without thought. Rosie is a gorgeous little thing, but I cannot agree with you that her breeder is an ethical one.



missRV said:


> Clearly you DO know about the above so I ask again, why not HELP people and write a sticky?


But missRV! The reason people are posting about health tests here IS to help people. It's to help the OP and to others that may come across this thread during their search for a pup. I am all for another sticky, but we already have a few that point out buying ethically (regardless of breed/cross breed).



Goblin said:


> Politicians often use truth to give false impressions. Fact is crossbreeds are less likely to inherit some genetic problems and produce a healthier dog than some pure breeds which is opposite to the impression given. You can argue semantics but not facts.


Yes, and what you said originally about it not being the case with an F1 cross and recessive genes, is not fact.

I have to strongly disagree that the impression is that crossbreeds are less healthy than pure breeds! On the contrary!! The misunderstanding on this subject is that 'all crossbreeds are healthier than those sickly pure breeds' regardless of health tests.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

missRV said:


> *no i dont like *threads being hijacked! No one asked for infornation on health, there are plenty of threads already talking about health testing!


I couldn't give a flying fig WHAT you like or don't like.

Last time I checked, this was a democracy. So when someone says they're getting a puppy of ANY breed or mix of breeds, I will *always* ask about health tests.

And the only person who hijacked this thread was you.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Alice Childress said:


> Having looked at your link to the breeder, I am going to have to disagree. I hope this doesn't feel like ganging up, and what is done is done, but in my opinion a breeder that currently has four separate litters available and mention more coming soon is somebody that is churning out a large amount of pups without thought. Rosie is a gorgeous little thing, but I cannot agree with you that her breeder is an ethical one.


I absolutely have to agree with this! As soon as I saw the words "council registered" on their website, alarm bells were ringing. There is only one council registered "breeder" in my area and it is a puppy farm. And as it turns out, this breeder isn't very far from me either, probably about 30 minutes away.

This also worries me a LOT:



> Christmas Lhasapoo Puppies available.


NO responsible breeder advertises puppies for Christmas! In fact, I doubt a decent breeder would even be breeding at all at this time of year, Christmas is simply too stressful a time to be homing puppies, or even rearing a litter. I am absolutely disgusted that this breeder thinks it's acceptable to advertise their puppies with a nod to them being Christmas presents..... yet they apparently won't home a puppy to someone who works full time. Double standards?!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Tigerneko said:


> I absolutely have to agree with this! As soon as I saw the words "council registered" on their website, alarm bells were ringing. There is only one council registered "breeder" in my area and it is a puppy farm. And as it turns out, this breeder isn't very far from me either, probably about 30 minutes away.
> 
> This also worries me a LOT:
> 
> NO responsible breeder advertises puppies for Christmas! In fact, I doubt a decent breeder would even be breeding at all at this time of year, Christmas is simply too stressful a time to be homing puppies, or even rearing a litter. I am absolutely disgusted that this breeder thinks it's acceptable to advertise their puppies with a nod to them being Christmas presents..... yet they apparently won't home a puppy to someone who works full time. Double standards?!


Agreed, these are not the actions of a responsible, caring breeder at all.

& Im always suspicious of breeders who dont post pics & info of their breeding bitches.

.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

so these previous threads about `show us pics of your gun dog` `show us pics of your staff` went off on a debate on health? The op asked for stories and pics of cavachons, not a biology lesson!

what a shame we`re resorting to blanked out profanities! Lets try growing up

if there is already information on this then why drag it up again?


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

missRV said:


> if there is already information on this then why drag it up again?


Because this is a discussion forum and topics like this touch on issues close to our hearts.

Plenty of threads of end up miles off topic, personally I think it's great as we end up having some good debates :biggrin:

The staffie thread might not have turned to health issues (staffies aren't known for having horrifically debilitating health problems) but threads about them do frequently end up being discussions about whether or not they're inherently aggressive. The HPR thread had a discussion about what exactly constitutes HPR dogs.

Plenty of people read this forum and don't post. I did for months before finally joining. If threads like this help someone to make an informed choice about buying a puppy then that's a good thing and to be honest I don't really care if the OP is a bit miffed that it's ended up off topic.

Health testing and supporting good, ethical breeders is something we do keep coming back to again and again but it's something that is just so vitally important to a lot of us.


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

missRV said:


> so these previous threads about `show us pics of your gun dog` `show us pics of your staff` went off on a debate on health? The op asked for stories and pics of cavachons, not a biology lesson!


No, because those previous threads had nothing to do with buying a puppy. The OP may not have asked for information about buying an ethically breed pup, but as they have not yet bought the pup they still have the chance to make sure that they are supporting the right kind of breeder. Threads, regardless of breed, that are along the lines of "I am getting a pup! I will post pics soon" etc, will end up with people mentioning health tests because the OP has not got a pup yet so people want to give them all the information.

There is still hope for the OP to support the right kind of breeder. A lot of joe public do not know about health tests (as demonstrated by the complete ignorance of the OP's vet), and if I did not know about them and was about to buy a pup without them, I would absolutely want someone to tell me there is another way. If I found out later that nobody had mentioned it just because I hadn't come on asking a direct question about it (how can you ask about health testing if you don't know it exists?!) I would not be impressed.

OP, your vet has given you some horrendous advise. Decent, ethical breeders raise their pups in a house so that they are use to every day sounds anyway. If your vet thinks otherwise then his advise cannot be trusted. Both parents of your pup need to be health tested to make sure they do not carry any nasty genetic disorders that could be passed onto your pup.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> I have to strongly disagree that the impression is that crossbreeds are less healthy than pure breeds! On the contrary!! The misunderstanding on this subject is that 'all crossbreeds are healthier than those sickly pure breeds' regardless of health tests.


We'll have to disagree then. Why is it important to have a low Inbreeding coefficient (COI)? What COI does an F1 crossbreed have?

I do agree that not all crossbreeds are healthier than pedigrees but statistics from insurers show they generally are. I do not ignore the fact that statistics like these are corrupt and never tell the whole story. What % of the dogs come from puppy farms for example. http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VetCompass/documents/Poster_SVEPM_2012_DONeill.pdf makes an interesting read although doesn't allow for size differences and the effect that has on lifespans.

The only way to have the best chance for a healthy dog (never a guarantee) is to go and find an ethical breeder no matter if looking for crossbreed or pedigree dog. On finding an ethical breeder it doesn't matter if you look at crossbreeds, pedigree breed, KC breed.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

The problems of not bothering to health test:

For the dog:

Pain
distress
blindness
deafness
lameness, reduced mobility
requiring drugs or surgery
blood disorders
reduced lifespan

For the owner:

sadness / guilt / anxiety / stress / concern etc for their poor dog suffering
expensive vet bills
secondary problems such as toiletting accidents, affected behaviour, etc.
beloved dog dies years before its time

If people actually made an effort to choose ethical breeders who health test etc then many of these problems can be avoided or reduced which is far better for both dogs and owners.

Giving people this info, helping them to find a decent breeder, can save dogs and owners from suffering, and can save dogs lives.

*How the hell can this be considered offensive???? * 

I on't give a flying toadstool what breed/type/mutt a person wants, so long as they get it from a decent breeder and not pay some heartless scumbag to keep abusing dogs because they are too lazy/tight/arrogant to make the right choice.

There are two things needed to make a difference - knowledge and conscience. Not having knowledge I can forgive (we don't know everything). But the other....


----------



## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Im not sure why anyone who loves dogs would object to others trying to improve their welfare by steering someone off BYB pups?
You can't bury your head in the sand.
Health tests are important, not just for dog welfare, but because of the heartache an owner can go through when they buy a pup from a dubious source. 
What is wrong with people trying to prevent that heartache for a new owner by making them aware of what they are getting into?


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

I agree that health checks are necessary but that is not what this thread was about!


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

missRV said:


> I agree that health checks are necessary but that is not what this thread was about!


Are you deliberately misunderstanding...?

Just because the OP didn't ask about health tests, does not mean they shouldn't be mentioned!

Surely you are in favour of doing everything humanly possible to PREVENT someone from supporting an immoral breeder who is risking the health and very lives OF the pups??!


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Are you deliberately misunderstanding...?
> 
> Just because the OP didn't ask about health tests, does not mean they shouldn't be mentioned!
> 
> Surely you are in favour of doing everything humanly possible to PREVENT someone from supporting an immoral breeder who is risking the health and very lives OF the pups??!


im not misunderstanding anything and yes i have just said health checks are important! I do remember urging the op to get confirmation that the breeders will give a refund if the pup has anything so horribly wrong as diagnosed by a vet!


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

missRV said:


> im not misunderstanding anything and yes i have just said health checks are important! I do remember urging the op to get confirmation that the breeders will give a refund if the pup has anything so horribly wrong as diagnosed by a vet!


Why would you advise blindly buying a puppy then 'asking for a refund' like it's a toaster, instead of advocating that someone buys a puppy sensibly in the first place?


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

well is there a list of sensible cavachon breeders?


----------



## Pet Services Kent (Dec 3, 2010)

missRV said:


> well is there a list of sensible cavachon breeders?


Why do you need a list? I'm sorry, but common sense should tell you that there are some very basic requirements a breeder should meet before you even go and look at the litter:

Any relevant health tests should have been carried out.
The litter should have been raised in a home environment.
You should be able to meet AT LEAST the mother of the puppies.
Information should be available on the father if he is not present.

These are just a few of the guidelines I have used to buy a puppy. I didn't consult a "list" I spoke to many breeders and went with the one I was happiest with. Olly, incidentally, isn't KC registered, despite being a pure dalmatian. His parents, however, were fully health tested and I saw all the relevant certification. I also met both parents and was very happy with their character.


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Goblin said:


> We'll have to disagree then. Why is it important to have a low Inbreeding coefficient (COI)? What COI does an F1 crossbreed have?


It is important because there has been shown to be a link between a lower number and better health as well as reducing the chance of recessive issues popping up. It is one of many things to consider.

You do understand that different breeds can share the same recessive genes? Breeding two different pure breeds with inherited issues together, will not magically result in a healthy puppy just because it has a low COI!

I am not quite sure why you are bringing this up though? This is not a debate about whether pure breeds or cross breeds are in fact healthier. We were talking about the _impression_ people have. The impression that is often given is that crossbreed = healthy, purebreed = ill, regardless of health tests, family history etc. Do you really think most people assume purebreeds are healthier?? In that case we must have very different experiences of people.



Goblin said:


> The only way to have the best chance for a healthy dog (never a guarantee) is to go and find an ethical breeder no matter if looking for crossbreed or pedigree dog. On finding an ethical breeder it doesn't matter if you look at crossbreeds, pedigree breed, KC breed.


Exactly! I expect the vast majority of the people on this forum (and 100% of people I've seen comment on this thread) agree. Hence my concern at people believing the sweeping statement that "all crossbreeds are healthy and all purebreeds are ill" without researching health tests and ethical breeders!


----------



## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

missRV said:


> im not misunderstanding anything and yes i have just said health checks are important! I do remember urging the op to get confirmation that the breeders will give a refund if the pup has anything so horribly wrong as diagnosed by a vet!


I think its important to make the distinction between health checks, and health tests, as the two are often used interchangeably by people who aren't sure about what health testing really is.
A check is something a vet does, check the dog over, tell you if anything is immediately apparently wrong. They can tell you the dog is fit and well at that very second in time, but not its long term chances of being a healthy dog. A 'check' can't tell you if that dog has cancer, or heart failure, or whatever else lurking in its genes.

Health tests on the parents will give you an idea of what genetic issues that puppy is likely to inherit as it ages.

I _do_ understand people not being totally clued up on health testing, as I wasn't before I began searching for a pupppy.
I only had experience with rats, which are not health tested (sadly, no tests available, you just have to breed from individuals who have reached a reasonable age without showing any signs of anything nasty, and likewise with their parents and grandparents, and cross your fingers.)
So I had to learn about health tests in dogs, what my breed should have done.

And the way I found out about them was on forums, lurking and reading other poster's horror stories of their sick pups, and seeing some respond with 'were any health tests done on the parents?' and thinking 'I'd better look into this 'health testing' thing!'

So I absolutely think it is fine to tell new puppy buyers about health tests, because they may not even know what they are, or the importance of them!
A hell of a lot of 'casual' dog owners don't know about health testing. Back in the day, your average pet owner would buy a pup from anyone who had a cute litter, and that sort of thing wasn't even considered.

I _wish_ there were health tests available for rats! Dogs are lucky that they have that little security blanket available, so I don't see why anyone wouldn't insist upon it when buying a pup.
There is no excuse for them NOT to be done.

If this OP came back in 6 months and said their pup was desperately ill, you'd probably be right there offering condolences and sympathy, but that heartache, and most importantly dog suffering, could be removed (or at least greatly lessened) if health tests are done. Why wouldn't you fully support that?
And yes, I'd say the same, regardless of whether it was a cross or a pedigree, it doesn't matter. But you have a harder time finding breeders who test with a cross than you do with a pedigree.

No-one is being mean, people are just trying to prevent another suffering dog in the world, another unethical breeder's pockets lined, and another owner devastated. They're doing this poster a favour by alerting her to the risks shes taking and trying to steer her toward a more ethical breeder, why can't you see that?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Oh my goodness - just looked on the website of that so called "good breeder" and frankly I am disgusted. Glorified puppy farm quite simply. 

Licenced (hence high numbers) and churning out countless litters, with multiple litters on the ground at a time. 
Prices will be reduced if they have too many pups / cheaper for certain colours, males cheaper than girls - all classic puppy farm money making nonsense. 
Pups kennel reared not home reared (personally I would avoid for dogs bred solely as pets!)
Website is minimalist, with no photos, and plenty of spelling and grammatical errors.
Supposedly breed at least 8 different types/crosses (generally good breeders specialise in one, maybe two breeds).
Very little health testing info - a comment on eye testing but no mention of checking patellas, legge perthes, HD or ED, SM, heart scanning, etc.
Adult dogs seem to be breeders - not pets.
Happy to sell "christmas" puppies (and worse - advertise them as such) appaling imo.
The claim that kennel raised pups from mass producing licenced kennels get better socialisation than home reared - bloody cheek!! 

I'm sorry, but how anyone could call these folk "good" breeders is beyond me. I am saddened and appalled. They wouldn't get a penny off me if they had a dog crapping solid gold poo


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

missRV said:


> well is there a list of sensible cavachon breeders?


Now that is a decent question 

I know that with for instance, 'cockapoo' breeders, there is an association/club which aims to promote good breeding and health testing etc.

If you do an internet search you may hopefully find the same thing with 'cavachons'.

But:

The key thing is to ask ANY breeder if they have done the health tests on the parent dogs. *Note: not health 'checks' *- this is just a vet inspection and does NOT rule out the crippling and life threatening diseases that some breeds suffer from and which can be largely ruled out by testing the parent dogs.

*We are ALL dog lovers - we all need to work together, whatever our breeds or cross breeds, to ***STOP*** those breeders who play Russian Roulette with the health and lives of the pups they produce by NOT testing the parents!*


----------



## white wisp (Dec 17, 2012)

cant believe this has 127 comments now, yet my photo one only has 1 reply 

come on guys, get them photos up and help me out with the grooming :001_tongue:


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

missRV said:


> im not misunderstanding anything and yes i have just said health checks are important! I do remember urging the op to get confirmation that the breeders will give a refund if the pup has anything so horribly wrong as diagnosed by a vet!


It's not as simple as that though, even if you ignore all the emotional issues involved.

A vet can't check over a new puppy and tell you if it will develop Syringomyelia or Mitral Valve Disease which are the two major concerns with cavaliers and their crosses. There's a reason why it's generally recommended to not breed cavaliers before a certain age because of the potential for either of the above developing later than the usual age for breeding small dogs.


----------



## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

think maybe we should start a new thread on show me your cavachon, cockapoo etc....

well, im happy with my puppy, hopefully she will live a long and happy life with us she is well looked after  when the next time comes around for a puppy we will be more informed!


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Colette said:


> Oh my goodness - just looked on the website of that so called "good breeder" and frankly I am disgusted. Glorified puppy farm quite simply.
> 
> Licenced (hence high numbers) and churning out countless litters, with multiple litters on the ground at a time.
> Prices will be reduced if they have too many pups / cheaper for certain colours, males cheaper than girls - all classic puppy farm money making nonsense.
> ...


Can't agree any more. Rep incoming!

To use that website as an indicator of what someone thinks a good breeder is saddens me. :nonod:


----------



## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> To use that website as an indicator of what someone thinks a good breeder is saddens me. :nonod:


Terrified me!

I can't even see what would make anyone think it was a decent breeder from the site .... Every single thing rang alarm bells for me 

Puppy farmer


----------



## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

missRV said:


> im not misunderstanding anything and yes i have just said health checks are important! I do remember urging the op to get confirmation that the breeders will give a refund if the pup has anything so horribly wrong as diagnosed by a vet!


Firstly, I am sorry to point it out again but there is a huge difference between health checks and health tests and a vet check will not confirm anything as the majority of genetic issues come about when the pup is older sort of 12 months on wards.

I know Lexi is a staffie not a cavachon but she is from a BYB where they just stuck 2 random dogs together with no care or concern for the dogs or the pups. Out of 5 pups I know at 3 and half years old there are only 3 left alive, one been PTS for allergies and one been killed.
Lexi at 3 and half years old is allergic to (ready for the list):
all cereals, wheat, maize, rice, pasta
grass (yep the one that grows in the ground)
pollen
soil and mud
dust mites
food strorage mite
most other mites
a lot of cooked meats
some anit biotics
stiches 
vaccines
And the list keeps growing.
She also has issues with her wind pipe, issues with blistering feet, issues with her kidneys and is starting with arthritis in her back hip.
Every single one of her issues is caused by bad breeding.

Nala is a lab, she is from health tested parents, they were hip scored, dad was elbow scored, both had clear eye certs, she is genetically clear for CMN and EIC, came from a breeder who cared and is still in touch and the stud dog owner is still in touch.....what a much better expereince.

And as an aside someone said a few pages back don't feel you have tp give health test result out, speak to the breeder before you give that info etc. If you have the health tests done properly they are posted on the KC website for all to see as the are SUPPOSED to be open to everyone to view to check the history of the dogs you are buying the pup from, I can view Nalas parents health tests, her various half brothers and sisters, her aunties and uncles and her grandparents to see if there are any trends or issues in the pedigree.


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Shadowrat said:


> I dunno....Im a little...iffy about this statement in the context you posted it in. I've read it through several times, trying to see if Im taking it the wrong way, so I might be wrong, please correct me if I am.
> But its like you're saying, almost, that pedigree dogs are a problem, and someone breeding crosses would avoid all those issues just by virtue of the fact that they're crosses?
> Im not really sure what you're trying to say with the above, I hope Im not getting the wrong end of the stick, but I fail to see how moving away from 'pedigree' dogs would mean less of the issues you mentioned? Do crosses, or non pedigrees, not have any of those issues?
> I also must pull up your mention of 'badly trained' dogs. Thats nothing to do with the _dog_......
> ...


I wasn't saying pedigrees aren't fit for being a pet dog, no that wasn't my intention. But that I think being a pet dog is a perfectly suitable job for any dog - look at the amount of toy and companion breeds we have. I don't see why a dog should have some other job as well, especially for the millions of owners who don't do dog sports.

The standards were developed out of a desire to judge dogs against something. Dogs shows came first *then* the standards. It's why so many dog breeds are so young - they developed for the sake of showing.

In fact, you mention Dobermans. Let's look at the history - and I only 'pick' on the breed because you mentioned it.

Eric Doberman wanted a fierce dog to protect him (tax collectors never popular), and used mongrels from the local dog rescue (which he ran) and mixed them with German Pinschers. He didn't keep records of the dogs he used, other than a few notes. So nobody really knows what breeds went into the making of the dog. So why then, is it okay for the Doberman to have its roots in mongrels and crossbreeding, and yet today nobody is allowed to attempt to create new breeds? I've got a list of breeds that were possibly involved in creating this breed if anyone wants it! That was in the 1870/1880s, and it wasn't recognised by the German Kennel Club for another 20 years (1900) which was after his death.

I'm not saying any dog doesn't make a good pet, but a dog that jumps up and mouths isn't what I would want in a dog - but we can't really blame the dog, as that's really what it was bred for. My aim would be to breed a dog that is great for the millions of people that just want a dog. But I haven't decided I will breed yet. It's just something on my mind. I've brought up a couple of litters for rescue, and I still see a couple from each litter - they are doing fine, well behaved, no behaviour problems, no problems with house training, which they both got done in around a week or so, plus neither of them cried when left alone the first night. Because I'd dealt with that before they even left the house. Kindly!


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Hi we are considering getting a cavachon puppy, I say considering as I am wondering if there are actually ANY breeders that do all the relevant health checks or not? I would not consider getting a cavachon unless I could see all health checks.

we lost our cavalier recently who had heart disease and we dont want to have to go through that again although we love the breed so much. I thought a cavachon would be better.

can anyone help or know of any really good breeders?

thanks


----------



## san davidson (May 31, 2018)

kezibell said:


> Just came across this forum today. We have been looking at getting our first dog for over a year and decided on the cross breed of cavalier king charles and bishon frise. Having googled for months, there doesn't appear to be much about them in the UK, but it appears quite a popular breed in America.
> However, we have chosen our new girl pup, ready in a couple of weeks. So I thought I would start this thread for other Cavachon owners, to share advice and experiences (and photos!)


I am happily owner of cavachon.

On the off chance that you can't decide between the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and the Bichon Frise, the Cavachon might be only the pooch you are searching for. This breed isn't acknowledged by the AKC in light of the fact that it is in fact a half breed or crossbreed as opposed to a thoroughbred canine. In the event that you aren't worried about demonstrating your puppy, notwithstanding, this may not be an issue by any means. The appearance and demeanor of architect pooches like the Cavachon shift extraordinarily starting with one litter then onto the next be that as it may, generally, you can expect some blend of Cavalier-and Bichon Frise-like attributes.

The correct birthplaces of the Cavachon breed are obscure on the grounds that half and half mutts have been in presence for a long time. Despite the fact that Cavachons may have been around for various years, the Gleneden pet hotel takes responsibility for and naming the breed in the late 1990s.


----------



## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

kezibell said:


> Thank you MissRV for the pics, Rosie has the same colourings as our new girl. She's adorable. Has Rosie's fur faded around the ears and face as she's got older?
> We've chosen our pup from a household, not a breeder, we have visited the home 3 times already, we've seen mum and dad, and also an 18 month pup from a previous litter whose homed with another family. In fact my vet recommended buying privately and not from a breeder, so the pup will be used to the hoover, TV and other household noises.
> In this day and age, with the use of google, I think the more I read about getting a pup, any breed of pup, its enough to put you off....so I'm a believer in, if it feels right, just go for it.


A person that has a litter of puppies IS a breeder. Most reputable breeders will show you parents or give you details and do live in a house etc. Sorry but your vet sounds a bit naive...but then they don't have the business experience. Good luck with your pup


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

This thread is 6 years old and a lot has changed in that time. A cavachon puppy should be from parents who have relevant tests for each breed , unfortunately rare.
I believe there is a Cavachon Breed Club, but strictly speaking it is a cross breed.

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/tags?tag=Crossbreed+Dogs


----------

