# anti-aversive Facebook site now over 2600 members



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cesar Millan Is A Hack | Facebook


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## jen24 (Apr 19, 2009)

I like cesar millan, im guessing others dont!!!

ok so some of his training methods may not be perfect but whose are?! i'll always like him, whatever anyone says.

im expecting to be jumped on now!!!!


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

i joined!!!!it`s up to you if you like him,but watching him strangling a dog was enough for me!!!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Can people please be very careful with what they say about individuals.

It can create legal problems for the forum otherwise.


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## jen24 (Apr 19, 2009)

Daggre said:


> I like him. Some of his methods may not be perfect. But he seems to get through to the dog, and has saved so many dogs from being put down, if you see how he reformed dogs it's amazing! None of his dogs seem to be unhappy either.
> 
> So am i Jen!
> 
> And i'm not saying we at home should try his methods. I think it takes a certain type of person to take that approach, and I don't think anybody without lots of experience should go around using some of his methods. But he has save dso many dogs from being put down.


thank you :thumbup:  x


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

I like him. Some of his methods may not be perfect. But he seems to get through to the dog, and has saved so many dogs from being put down, if you see how he reformed dogs it's amazing! None of his dogs seem to be unhappy either.

So am i Jen!

And i'm not saying we at home should try his methods. I think it takes a certain type of person to take that approach, and I don't think anybody without lots of experience should go around using some of his methods. But he has save dso many dogs from being put down.


argh, messed up there ^^ that was my post


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

I like him. Some of his methods may not be perfect. But he seems to get through to the dog, and has saved so many dogs from being put down, if you see how he reformed dogs it's amazing! None of his dogs seem to be unhappy either.

So am i Jen!

And i'm not saying we at home should try his methods. I think it takes a certain type of person to take that approach, and I don't think anybody without lots of experience should go around using some of his methods. But he has save dso many dogs from being put down.


argh, messed up there ^^ that was my post


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daggre said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Some of his methods may not be perfect. But he seems to get through to the dog, and has saved so many dogs from being put down, if you see how he reformed dogs it's amazing! *None of his dogs seem to be unhappy either.*


hey, daggre! :--) 
heres a link with dog-pros explaining what they see as problems - 
Quotes From Experts :: The College of Veterinary Medicine at The Ohio State University

when U say the dogs *don;t seem unhappy* - are U referring to the dogs shown being handled on-leash? 
--- terry


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Hai 
No, his pack. When a visitor arrives, they all greet them calmly, tails wagging. And they interect normally together. I have read some of the information on that page, and i can see where your coming from, it is best not to intimidate the dog if possible, and gentler (by that i mean, the positive reinforcement) training methods should be tried first, but some people have tried many trainers and the dog is due to be put down. Cesar has saved those animals. 

As for the leash jerks,and hand snaps. They do not hurt the dog, they act as a distraction/block. I am not saying that putting a dog into the 'submissive' position is a correct approach. But not all of of his ideas are totally wrong.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Nat Geo have a lot to answer for. There is a rising backlash against the type of behaviour modification shown in that programme with many professional people openly coming out in condemnation of the irresponsibility of promoting such methods on the TV. 

As for his 'successes, well we see only short-term successes from selective cases.  His tactics have been discredited by the people who originally developed them. For instance, he uses the so-called "alpha-roll" or to demonstrate dominance over a dog. This technique was first widely publicised much earlier by the Monks of New Skete (and he adopted it from them). Job Michael Evans, who first suggested the Alpha roll in his book for the Monks of New Skete, later apologised for it and so he should have! Evans indicated publicly that he wished he had never written about the alpha-roll and it has led to widespread abuse. According to Evans, the only dogs that would likely accept an Alpha roll didn't actually need it and the ones who do need it would bite you if you tried it with them, as many a copycat owner has found when mimicking CMs outdated and discredited methods on their poor dogs!

There are so many far better, less confrontational ways of training and dealing with, dogs. Why are some people so keen to use force, becoming dog dominators?  Dogs are conspecific, they do not perceive themselves to be part of 'our' pack! They do NOT see you as other dogs! The dog sees other dogs as dogs, not you! You are not part of his pack. He is part of your family, part of your household. Treat him fairly, learn about dog behaviour from the right sources. Not from someone who believes that a dog putting its own tail between its legs is 'making itself fearful' or who states that dogs are 'excited dominant' (boisterous actually) etc blah blah.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

I am not keen to establish dominance by intimidation or the 'alpha roll' when i use the word 'dominant' i generally mean, the dog shows you no respect, however, it seems here this word is instantly attacked. I think of the word 'dominance' as you have to be in charge, not necesserily (sp?) forcefully, but the dog has to respect you, because otherwise a situation could potentially be dangerous (such as jumping) i do not believbe dogs should be alloeed to jump as many people dislike it, they could knock you over or ruin clothes (sounds trivial, but could be annoying on a regular basis). Dogs who get excited and jump with other dogs, are ignored until they calm down, which is what i do 9ignore a jumping dog until it is sitting calmly) I KNOW we are not dogs, but this doens't mean we shouldn't get the same level of respect.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jen24 said:


> I like cesar millan, im guessing others dont!


its not about liking or disliking the man, jen - 
it very specifically has to do with what he does, and how he does it.

he does not TRAIN, remember  he says so all the time  he is **not a trainer*.*
rather he says he *rehabilitates* which should translate to B-Mod, but behavior-modification requires even more-education 
+ more-savvy than the standard manners-only or even sport-only [agility, flyball, etc] trainer needs. 
EX: 
if i am a very-skilled specialist who is instructing savvy handlers whose dogs already have well-taught basic-obedience, 
then i can focus exclusively on my area of expertise - 
like teaching a swimmer-turn for flyball, or maintaining good moving-contacts in agility, 
or a full-mouth bite in Schutzhund, or teaching the dog to use whole-body-cues for freestyle vs hand-cues.

B-Mod requires extreme-awareness of the dogs emotional state, to keep the dog calm-enuf to continue learning - 
a highly-stressed, aroused or fearful dog CANNOT learn new behavior, so minimizing stress is crucial. 
B-Mod also requires a broad + deep knowledge of various techniques + tools, many did not exist even 10-yrs ago - 
others have been around since the 1930s - including Pavlovian conditioning + Skinners OC - operant conditioning.

obviously, someone who teaches a puppy to SIT on-cue is not tackling an adult-dog with sep-anx, on-leash reactivity, 
post-trauma fears, and other major issues - but i am sure U can see that the ability to teach a puppy SIT on cue 
is simpler than dealing with habitual behaviors that may have been practiced for years. 
hence the need for more-knowledge for those practicing B-Mod.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Sophia Yin pretty much explains how I feel about Millan...

The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> Sophia Yin pretty much explains how I feel about Millan...
> 
> The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan


That is an excellent link. :thumbup:


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

i think his methods are appauling


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

look at these videos or listen to a podcast here - 
ABRI Videos and Podcasts 
and there is simply no comparison between the quality of information and the handling styles (shown or described). 
*the Donaldson, teoti anderson, DVM yin, DVM dunbar... 


> Dr. Melissa Bain. She is currently Service Chief of the Clinical Animal Behavior Service at UC Davis...
> 
> *...Bonnie Beaver. Dr. Beaver is the Executive Director of the American College of Veterinary Behavior, a past-president of the American Veterinary Medical Association, and is on the faculty of Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas. *
> 
> ...


*and theres more - all FREE, all competent, all safe sources. 
i compare it to buying prescription-drugs from an on-line website with no physical-address for cut-rate prices plus shipping, or getting the same meds from a safe-source thru a known-pharmacy with a druggist available by phone... 
but in this case - the price is free. 
U save the risks of serious fallout, major un-intended consequences, and U learn something along the way. 
so... why buy from any source less than known-safe + professional?

DVM Yin has dozens of U-Tube videos; so does *kikopup*, *karen pryor and other KP-academy grads*, 
and hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pet-owners --- who all use pos-R training techniques successfully - 
PERFECTLY? no - but pos-R does not have to be perfect, it is not nearly as difficult to use safely and well 
as punitive techniques, 
which must be accurately timed, of sufficient aversity to STOP the behavior on one or 2 applications (pretty severe IOW), 
and Consistently Applied - every time the dog does X, U gotta *correct* AKA punish.

lifes too short to spend punishing / correcting --- teaching right is faster, safer, simpler 
and CERTAINLY :lol: more fun! :thumbup: than correcting AKA punishing.  try it - betcha like it. :thumbsup: 
IMO + IME, U have absolutely nothing to lose  and U and Ur dog have everything to gain.

--- terry

*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Joined his methods are awful. Have you seen the saint bernard puppy who was scared of stairs video yet?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> Sophia Yin pretty much explains how I feel about Millan...
> The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan


my WORD, :001_tt1: incredible link! Wow.

just watch that clip of CM/DW forcing the Maltese to submit to grooming, 
YouTube - Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog which is on that page of Yin-wisdom, 
and then watch THIS... YouTube - CIA Case File: 'Tucker' Nail Trim

in one, we see a small dog who is alternately shut-down, stressed, or highly defensive - 
in the other, we see a dog with a LONG history of bites with bleeding, who is relaxed, engaged, 
open-faced + co-operative - he is NOT restrained in any way, he *offers* a paw for a claw to be clipped at the end.

which would U rather work with as a groomer? or if U were the owner - 
what outcome is preferable? which dog is less problematic?

*obviously, Tucker is not *cured* - but he is not resistant, defensive or traumatized, etiher.  * 
he has a way to go, but he is improving. i am not at all sure we can say that about the Maltese - 
how will he behave the next time someone approaches him with scissors? 
i kinda doubt he;ll be relaxed + calm, myself. 

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Found the link poor baby
Dog Whisperer | Tobi & Riley | Photos | Image: St. Bernard - National Geographic Channel

The jindo was the worst though


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Joined in a heartbeat


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I have always liked cesar and always will.I don't think for one min. that he's cruel.This is a guy thats always refering to mother nature and being tuned in to feelings.As for him "strangling" a dog, utter RUBBISH.









WAY TO GO CESAR.:thumbup:*


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't really know much about him in all honesty....and won't join FB sites like that because I've seen first hand the problem they cause but one of the vidios postedon the page shows someone using ashock collar on a gsd and it's just made me cry.....the poor little sod was whining and crying....te owner thought it was amazing that the ollar stopped the dog going for her cat....but dogs do chase cats....there's no need for a shock collar to prevent it surely, cant she just be careful....


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

*LINK to a video* (This video link takes a while to load so have patience and just read something else while you wait.  )
Here you will see a dog deliberately bump into CMs foot and then have the audacity to hang itself by its' own lead! :eek6: It then pretends to collapse in a state of partial asphyxiation afterwards.  This is one of the videos that has caused the *RSPCA and a load of other organisations* to condemn CMs' methods. Oh they are all so fluffy and soft bless 'em!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> *LINK to a video* (This video link takes a while to load so have patience and just read something else while you wait.  )
> Here you will see a dog deliberately bump into CMs foot and then have the audacity to hang itself by its' own lead! :eek6: It then pretends to collapse in a state of partial asphyxiation afterwards.  This is one of the videos that has caused the *RSPCA and a load of other organisations* to condemn CMs' methods. Oh they are all so fluffy and soft bless 'em!


*lmao it probably takes a long time to load because its been worn out.:lol::lol:*


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

I thought at first he was great, but reading other points of views and seeing things like Alpha rolls dome on my lad I very quickly changed my mind. There really is kinder ways of achieving the behaviours WE want. Lets face it most of the issues dogs have are human created.


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## jen24 (Apr 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have always liked cesar and always will.I don't think for one min. that he's cruel.This is a guy thats always refering to mother nature and being tuned in to feelings.As for him "strangling" a dog, utter RUBBISH.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
completely agree


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

YAWN!!!!!

Cross-breeds, health tests, designer breeds YAWN!!!!!

Don't you lot get fed up of going round in circles? I guess not. :bored: :bored: :bored:


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## jen24 (Apr 19, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> YAWN!!!!!
> 
> Cross-breeds, health tests, designer breeds YAWN!!!!!
> 
> Don't you lot get fed up of going round in circles? I guess not. :bored: :bored: :bored:


im new to the dog section so i havent gone round in a full circle yet!! :lol:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Don't you lot get fed up of going round in circles? I guess not. :bored: :bored: :bored:


Actually I think we've gone something like 6 weeks without a CM topic - is that a record?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Going round in circles makes me dizzy - but I think its worth it.

So long as people are abusing - yes abusing! - dogs in the name of training, breeding wrecks that will be crippled and in agony by hereditary disorders, and churning out pups for profit when over 10,000 dogs are destroyed in the UK every year - then folks like us will be running round in circles trying to do something about it!


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Colette said:


> Going round in circles makes me dizzy - but I think its worth it.
> 
> So long as people are abusing - yes abusing! - dogs in the name of training, breeding wrecks that will be crippled and in agony by hereditary disorders, and churning out pups for profit when over 10,000 dogs are destroyed in the UK every year - then folks like us will be running round in circles trying to do something about it!


here here .


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Maybe we should have dug up one of the previous CM threads and bumped that up with posts instead but then we would have been moaned about for dredging one of those up! 

If people do not want to read about such a subject, bypass the thread! :001_cool:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> So long as people are abusing - yes abusing! - dogs in the name of training, breeding wrecks that will be crippled and in agony by hereditary disorders, and churning out pups for profit when over 10,000 dogs are destroyed in the UK every year - then folks like us will be running round in circles trying to do something about it!


hey, colettte! :--) 
over here in the USA, its between 3 + 5 Million dogs + cats, annually, destroyed in shelters; 
*some of whom* are unadoptable due to serious behavioral-issues, chronic pain that cannot be adequately controlled, 
a chronic or zoonotic illness, etc - but many are healthy, young, and behaviorally normal. 

i am deeply, deeply thankful that the vet who spoke to me when i was a starry-eyed 15-YO was *wrong - * 
he said that pet-owners would never spend $$ to desex their pets, and shelters would be forced to use euthanasia 
as after-the-fact population control. :eek6: i am so glad he was wrong!

but the folks who breed as a sideline-income drive me nuts - they do it BADLY + CHEAPLY. 
they no more deserve the *breeder* title than a novice-handler who has never been in a ring deserves pro-rates, IMO. 
they cut their costs to increase profit, and never invest in their dogs.  
i wish them short, unhappy lives, as full of woe as their sold-pups + bred dogs lives. 
a pox on them, 
--- terry


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *As for him "strangling" a dog, utter RUBBISH.
> *


*

im not on facebook but i'll be joining just so i can join this group because rather shockingly i Have! seen him practically strangling a poor dog! and it was bloody awful:thumbdown:



Colette said:



Going round in circles makes me dizzy - but I think its worth it.

So long as people are abusing - yes abusing! - dogs in the name of training, breeding wrecks that will be crippled and in agony by hereditary disorders, and churning out pups for profit when over 10,000 dogs are destroyed in the UK every year - then folks like us will be running round in circles trying to do something about it!

Click to expand...

well said i completely agree!*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Shamen said:


> im not on facebook but i'll be joining just so i can join this group because rather shockingly i Have! seen him practically strangling a poor dog! and it was bloody awful:thumbdown:
> 
> *I have seen the video clip time and time again.He isn't strangling the dog.But we will have to disagree.
> 
> *


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> Shamen said:
> 
> 
> > im not on facebook but i'll be joining just so i can join this group because rather shockingly i Have! seen him practically strangling a poor dog! and it was bloody awful:thumbdown:
> ...


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

i joined.

cesar is like a medieval scorcerer, conning people.

purporting to have the truth when he is using outdated and unhealthy ways to bully a dog.

the owners are just as guilty too, do anything to get on telly. sod the dog. we are on national t.v.


fake teeth and a plastic tan do not a trainer make.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I have seen the video clip time and time again.He isn't strangling the dog.But we will have to disagree.


Call it what you like - strangling, hanging, asphyxiating, choking, even "checking". The name you give it makes no odds to me.

I see CM (not just this clip but in various others too) put a noose around a dogs neck and yank it around, at times suspending the dog from said noose, until the point it virtually collapses - no doubt as a result of a combination of extreme stress / fear and lack of oxygen.

This isn't safe, it isn't humane, hell it isn't even training, and it sure as hell ain't right!!

I genuinely do not understand how people can watch this guy terrorising dogs and feel impressed or entertained. Makes me feel physicaly sick.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

what an ******** with the st bernard and the stairs, big pups like that should not even be encouraged to use stairs. fkn numpty plastic smile [email protected]


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

there was a dog abuser called cesar

a really outdated yank geezer


as dense as two logs 

about training dogs


let'sall alpha roll the old wheezer


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

davehyde said:


> there was a dog abuser called cesar
> 
> a really outdated yank geezer
> 
> ...


* sorry is that your attempt at being funny?:thumbdown:*


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

funnier than senor milan dragging that dog up the stairs.

abuser that he is.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

davehyde said:


> funnier than senor milan dragging that dog up the stairs.
> 
> abuser that he is.


*:Yawn::Yawn: your entitled to your oppion.:lol::lol:*


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

as you are to yours:thumbup:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Can this be kept on topic please, and not turn into yet another debate.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> YAWN!!!!!
> Cross-breeds, health tests, designer breeds YAWN!!!!!
> Don't you lot get fed up of going round in circles? I guess not. :bored: :bored: :bored:


:lol: sorry, hutch :laugh: didn;t mean to bore U, dear - 
why not go have a lie-down, see if yer in a better mood later?  
U;ve probly been working too-hard again :nonod: we can stagger along without ya, 
come back after a cup of cocoa + a kip! the world will look better.

as to why this keeps recurring like that high-school nightmare of being late, and able to run only in slow-motion, 
*6 or 8-weeks ago, a new-member to PF-uk *thanked us collectively* for showing her something she had not seen, 
or saw but did not recognize - and then showing her an alternative method or 4.

she rightly pointed-out that if we do not discuss this now + again, NEWBIES - to PF-uk, to dogs as pets, rearing 
a pup for the first-time, etc - will *never hear about it* -

they don;t go to training-clubs, hire an experienced trainer for 1-to-1 lessons, hobnob with freestyle-folks, 
WATCH pos-R videos on U-Tube cuz they don;t know how to find them, nor what they should look for to evaluate them... 
they are not buddies with Rally-O competitors, and probably don;t have a clue what flyball or bike-jor, ARE. 
they aren;t stoopid - they are ignorant, innocent and as lost as babes in the Great Dark Wood. 

*why* should we let them stumble along, damaging relations with their pup or dog, making life harder 
rather than easier, and most of all, not make that dogs life =kinder= by our efforts? *

besides which this is a BRAND-new website to me, and i liked the links - 
theres a slew of good training information here, even if U ignore the CM/DW theme entirely. 
U can always look past the philosophy-part, and simply go for the good stuff - 
the practical, Here-and-Now how-to stuff. 
at least U know it won;t backfire on ya, later - safety is good! :thumbup1:

cheers, 
--- terry


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Ive joined so thats another one


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Can the topic of Cesar please be banned? It's the same thing time and time again.

It's tiresome and boring.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't see why the subject should be banned? 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions - its not like I have a vendetta against Janice or any other CM fan. (Hope you realise that Janice!)

I just don't like his methods, and want others (inc newbies who may be reading) to see some of what I see. Dogs shutting down, wetting themselves, etc.

As Terry pointed out - many dog owners have no idea. They haven't studied the ins and outs of canine behaviour or training, and like it or not, CM is the most obvious, in your face dog person in the public eye right now. 

Threads like this give people the chance to see the issue from the other side - the R+, non-confrontational side. Let them read the debate, assess the arguements for and against and make up their own minds. Without discussions like this too many people will simply believe everything they see on the TV and a great many dogs and owners will suffer for it.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I don't like the man either but it really does feel like a vendetta against him at times 

Plus too many threads have ended up closed and/or deleted because some people can't distinguish between healthy debate and personal insults.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Can the topic of Cesar please be banned? It's the same thing time and time again.
> 
> It's tiresome and boring.


*I'll go along with that.There's been so many threads done about him now,if people want to know they can look at old threads.I believe its oly done now to cause trouble.*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colette said:


> Threads like this give people the chance to see the issue from the other side - the R+, non-confrontational side. Let them read the debate, assess the arguements for and against and make up their own minds. Without discussions like this too many people will simply believe everything they see on the TV and a great many dogs and owners will suffer for it.


Absolutely!

I am sorry if some find our discussion of the pros and cons of CM and his methods boring but hey! You do not have to read these threads! It is not compulsory for you to have to read them - fact! 

Or is it because we are not conceding that we are wrong in condemning such training methods and that we should idolise him like his fans do? Is this why a few would like the subject banned, so that we do not take you out of your comfort zone? Because we do not agree with you on this one so you would like the discussion stifled through a ban?? 

Don't read the threads. Simple as.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Hes a very strange man.......


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Can the topic of Cesar please be banned? It's the same thing time and time again.
> It's tiresome and boring.


hey, queena! :--) 
then as *carolineH suggested, there are other threads, hun. 

does the RSPCA stop talking about irresponsible breeders cuz they did that last year? 
no - cuz there are new novice-dogs-owners and new wannabe-dog-owners, every year. 
there are new PF-uk members, + many are dog-novices, every day. 
i just mentioned a (then-new) PF-uk-member who was very appreciative of a past thread... 
WHICH by the way, was approx 6 to 8-wks ago, and was a thread *she* resurrected. 
its not as tho this e-addy was posted previously - that NEW ppl take up similar issues re this topic, is inevitable.

*i have a better idea - lets ban discussions of housetraining! :thumbup: 
:lol: with the sticky + all the links + books available thru SEARCH on the Forum, its an incessant repetition: 
* WATCH the puppy 
* take pup out every X-hours at the very least 
* take pup out On-Leash every time; reward voiding on the spot 
* put pup in a potty-safe area when NOT directly supervised 
* take pup out after Every Trigger (in addition to the min-schedule above) 
* crate, tether, ex-pen, close doors, etc; use such barriers to confine pup safely 
but we keep having to write customized How-To plans for potty-posts daily. :crazy: why? *

potty-training is simple - get the pup AND an adult outside when Pup needs to go; reward right-place / right-time. 
its the precise same process for every puppy, with minor tweaks - stairs, ground-floor, basement; garden, no garden.

B-Mod is complex, varies enormously from dog to dog, and requires both broad + deep competency; 
*any* grown-up ought to be able to housetrain a healthy, normal puppy. 
*few pet-owners are up to doing B-Mod without some professional help - 
a manual, an extensive protocol A-La DVM Overall, a 1-to-1 consult, etc.*

:thumbup: lets ban individual housetraining queries! :lol:

(no, ~sigh...~ i;m not serious. _but i can DREAM :lol: can;t i?_  ) 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Ok fine, I'll take my OPINIONS elsewhere then


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I believe its (only) done now to cause trouble.*


excuse me, janice? :huh: 
i was personally THRILLED that the group passed the 2600 mark in January, and wanted to celebrate that - 
it means that despite major media-saturation, there are folks who are not pros, who have heard that confrontation 
is not mandatory in dog *handling* (remember, its not training...).

besides which, as i have several times pointed out, *this site has good training-tips, not Only Criticism.* 
i did not post something merely to titivate a dull moment - i posted what i think is a valuable resource. 
thanks for Ur input, but stirring the pot is NOT on my To-Do list. 

cheers, 
--- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'll go along with that.There's been so many threads done about him now,if people want to know they can look at old threads.I believe its oly done now to cause trouble.*


I wouldn't say that. Sometimes they can be invaluable especially for new members but it does get out of hand a lot of the time.

Nevermind Janice you can always start your own thread


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> I am sorry if some find our discussion of the pros and cons of CM and his methods boring but hey! You do not have to read these threads! It is not compulsory for you to have to read them - fact!
> 
> ...


Stop being so bloody patronising please. As you know I don't like the man or his methods, but yes it does seem rather victimising towards those who do and I can see why they get so annoyed 

It's starting to feel like it's your way (as in the anti CMs) or the highway!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Stop being so bloody patronising please. As you know I don't like the man or his methods, but yes it does seem rather victimising towards those who do and I can see why they get so annoyed
> 
> It's starting to feel like it's your way (as in the anti CMs) or the highway!


And like I have said before, you do not have to read the threads!

Accuse me of being patronising if that is the way that you choose to take my posts. But I do not see why we should have our discussion stifled because some do not like the subject. :001_cool:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I think the CM discussions tend to get circular and flogging-the-dead-horse because one side bases itself on research and proof, and the other states opinion. One side disproves the basis of that opinion, the other restates the opinion. One side gets frustrated... 

and so on and so on.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> *i have a better idea - lets ban discussions of housetraining! :thumbup:
> :lol: with the sticky + all the links + books available thru SEARCH on the Forum, its an incessant repetition [snip]...
> but we keep having to write customized How-To plans for potty-posts daily. :crazy: why? * [snip]...
> 
> ...


*guess what? we are even making progress on the housetraining issue... 
:thumbup: hurrah! :lol: what a relief :001_cool: *



WelshOneEmma said:


> Just thought I would give a quick update.
> Piper has been crated at nights in the bedroom for the last 3 nights.
> First night she wimpered for maybe 10-15 seconds, then settled down, slept til 3am, went out for a wee, went back to bed,
> got up at 8am. Second night, no wimpering, up at about the same times. Last night there was a slight change - I went upstairs to start getting ready for bed, she followed me up, and went into her crate
> ...


yay! progress is a beautiful thing... :001_tt1: 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I've found the discussion quite interesting. I've never been a fan (at first more because his teeth were too white!!) but since then I've not felt confortable with some of his 'techniques'. 
I don't think it's dragging old stuff up because I haven't read all the old posts but I HAVE read alot of the posts on here & the links regarding dominance which have been really interesting.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I've found the discussion quite interesting. I've never been a fan (at first more because his teeth were too white!!) but since then I've not felt confortable with some of his 'techniques'.
> I don't think it's dragging old stuff up because I haven't read all the old posts but I HAVE read alot of the posts on here & the links regarding dominance which have been really interesting.


That's the intention of these threads.  To give people more to think about than 'I love Cesar!' and 'I think Cesar is ace!' etc. 

Open discussion is a much more constructive way of educating people and helping them to start learning about it themselves. There will always be those who aren't comfortable with having their hero 'slated' as they see it and there will always be those who simply do not want to entertain the thought that their idolatry has been wasted. Our concern is that his 'way' should not become the norm. We have moved on so far in dog behaviour circles and those of us who used to instruct and assist dog owners, plus those of us who still do, have a yearning to share knowledge (and indeed update our existing knowledge) rather than just accept the word of a TV celebrity who is purely a puppet to help a lot of people get rich before they dump him and move onto the next big thing.

Not sure if this link has been put on here yet - Dominant dog theory will soon be but a whisper | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors Apology if it has!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> That's the intention of these threads.  To give people more to think about than 'I love Cesar!'
> and 'I think Cesar is ace!' etc. [snip]...
> Not sure if this link has been put on here yet -
> Dominant dog theory will soon be but a whisper | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


i think these sorts of threads come up over other subjects, too - 
the whole concept of punishment; the idea of dog-emotion and dog-cognition, and some folks feel uncomfortable 
granting dom-dogs **either one**, at which point i have to ask, if the dog can neither think NOR feel, whats left? 
_how do dom-dogs do what they do, with minimal brain + no heart? _

even the CM/DW threads are not IMO about *i love CM!* vs *i hate CM!* - 
thats way too simplistic.

thanks for the link!  
i loved the story of the fearful-biting dog and the *dominating* family - 
its too bad Ms Jones did not take that group-photo with the dog + family members from torso down, showing their bandages, 
plasters, etc, and the scared dog. :nonod: it would have been eye-opening, i;m sure. 
(without revealing their identities or compromising privacy )


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It would have been good to see the injuries. For all the injuries that CM is so proud of and shows off on screen I've never seen that kind of injuries on VS even with aggressive dogs


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## Guest (May 7, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Can the topic of Cesar please be banned? It's the same thing time and time again.
> 
> It's tiresome and boring.


what about people like me who are new to the forum and who find threads like this very interesting and informative not tiresome and boring

& i felt quite patronised and humiliated by your comments on a thread about foxes you made me feel as though i should'nt have joined the thread, so are members only suppose to agree on everything then

without this thread i would'nt have know about the facebook group :thumbup:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I've found the discussion quite interesting. I've never been a fan (at first more because his teeth were too white!!) but since then I've not felt confortable with some of his 'techniques'.
> I don't think it's dragging old stuff up because I haven't read all the old posts but I HAVE read alot of the posts on here & the links regarding dominance which have been really interesting.


*Now what has the colour of his teeth got to do with anything?Look at 90% of todays filmstars or Simon Cowell what about their teeth?(thats not aimed at you by the way).
Throughout all the threads about CM some have even stooped to a low level talking about him being an illegal immigrant.God knows what that has to do with his methods of his work.*


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now what has the colour of his teeth got to do with anything?Look at 90% of todays filmstars or Simon Cowell what about their teeth?(thats not aimed at you by the way).
> Throughout all the threads about CM some have even stooped to a low level talking about him being an illegal immigrant.God knows what that has to do with his methods of his work.*


It was meant to be light hearted!!!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

davehyde said:


> fake teeth and a plastic tan do not a trainer make.


A fine set of gnashers which every member of American Society aspires for hence why us Brits are renowned for our awful dentures.

His "Fake tan" comes from a mixture of his Latin American heritage and L.A sunshine (when the smog is thin enough to let it through). Hardly a fake tan.



leashedForLife said:


> :lol: sorry, hutch :laugh: didn;t mean to bore U, dear -
> why not go have a lie-down, see if yer in a better mood later?
> U;ve probly been working too-hard again :nonod: we can stagger along without ya,
> come back after a cup of cocoa + a kip! the world will look better.


Yawn......Morning.

NAh still feel the same about this after popping back.

I am all for the positive methods of training but I mix it with a bit of stern "No!". I have neither a for or against opinion of the trainer in question but why not make a sticky of "Dog Training Techiques - Pros/Cons" giving each method a description fo techniques, tools used the effectiveness the drawbacks, the affect it has on the dog etc?

I am off back to bed. I am tired after all that thinkling and typing.

Catch you later on about page 19 of this unless the padlock comes out


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> * Throughout all the threads about CM some have even stooped to a low level talking about him being an illegal immigrant.God knows what that has to do with his methods of his work.*


nobody said it had anything *to do with his methods (or) his work*, janice -

i gave a pocket-bio at least 2x, explaining that he 
* grew-up + was schooled in rural Mexico to approx 8th or 9th grade 
* arrived as an unpapered / illegal / whatever U prefer in his teens 
* worked in odd-jobs, construction, day-labor + *as an assistant in a grooming shop, sweeping-out at first* 
* the 2 women who owned the shop discover he does not mind being bitten as much as they - 
they begin letting him bathe dogs who actively resist

the POINT is not that theres something inherently evil here - 
its that he refers to himself as a *dog psychologist*. 
the nearest-thing to that in real-life is a *vet-behaviorist - with at least 18 years of total schooling*. 
*cesar millan* conversely has approx 8 to 9 years of schooling. ergo, i think this is an incorrect self-label.

snake-oil peddlers + various magicians across millennia have titled themselves Doctor, Professor, Wizard, etc - 
abrogating to themselves schooling / knowledge they did not have. 
IMO referring to oneself as a *psychologist* without even a high-school degree, let alone a doctorate, is similar - 
it implies scholastic accreditation one does not have. 
even an honorary degree does not confer a genuine doctorate, earned with years of study + testing.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

ahahah just read this thread.

I don't see why this should be a banned topic at all. I've learnt loads from these 'dominant' related links, and although I wouldn't join an 'anti' anybody group- especially somebody who at least THOUGHT they were doing the right thing. I read some pf the pages and found them really informative. 

I used to like Cesar, and his ideas, but I feel he is misinformed now, however at least he believes he is doing all he can to balance a dog. And to be fair, his pack of dogs who live at his centre appear happy and healthy and are certainly well looked after.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> nobody said it had anything *to do with his methods (or) his work*, janice -
> 
> i gave a pocket-bio at least 2x, explaining that he
> * grew-up + was schooled in rural Mexico to approx 8th or 9th grade
> ...


*Terry you and i both know there has been cheap digs aimed at Cesar.Now i'm old enough and have broad enough shoulders to take this cr*p.But i will NEVER stand bye and say nothing when i believe in something and say nothing.To me i cannot see any fault with cesar and i've never hidden the fact.BUT! i know of numerous people that will no longer reply to threads involing him for fear of being shot down on here.IMO thats just not right.*


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> Terry you and i both know there has been cheap digs aimed at Cesar.Now i'm old enough and have broad enough shoulders to take this cr*p.But i will NEVER stand bye and say nothing when i believe in something and say nothing.To me i cannot see any fault with cesar and i've never hidden the fact.BUT! i know of numerous people that will no longer reply to threads involing him for fear of being shot down on here.IMO thats just not right.


I used to love the guy, but I read a load of pages, and dug around (and I did dig for stuff supporting him too, but it was outweighed) I can see his theories are incorrect. Although i do believe some dogs are disrespectful and all dogs definately need leadership, this should be more of a paret/child relationship i'm not saying treat a dog as a child) the dog should respect and trust the owner, and the owner should respect and love the dog, and be the one who makes descisions.

I cannot really say whether cesar is hurting those animals or not. I certaintly do not think he intends too. And I agree, sometimes you can feel intimidated over the internet, especially as some comments can sound very hurtful, but were not actually intended that way.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Hes horrible, how can anybody 'love' this guy? I acctuly watched him on Paul O'Grady and he claimed to get someones dog to leave a treat in 2 minutes and he didnt, the dog didnt even listen to him (some dog whisper that is) and he just spouted the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. He comes the whole 'domiance thing' all the time and its seriously boring.

Cesears way of dominence..

"Dogs assume either a dominant or submissive role in their "pack." If he doesn't get off the couch when you ask him to, it's your dog's way of telling you that he's dominant and you're submissive."

"You can "cure" a dog's fear by overwhelming him with the very stimulus that terrifies him."

"Physical corrections - such as snapping a dog's leash or forcefully rolling him onto his back - are an effective way to garner good behavior."

So Janice, would you allow him to come yank your dogs lead, or hurting your dog to show domience?

I know I wouldnt allow anybody to do that - its wrong wrong *WRONG*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RachyBobs said:


> Hes horrible, how can anybody 'love' this guy? I acctuly watched him on Paul O'Grady and he claimed to get someones dog to leave a treat in 2 minutes and he didnt, the dog didnt even listen to him (some dog whisper that is) and he just spouted the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. He comes the whole 'domiance thing' all the time and its seriously boring.
> 
> Cesears way of dominence..
> 
> ...


*IF and it is a big IF i needed help then yes 100% i would ask for his help.I would never recocomend someone i wouldn't use myself.*


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> Hes horrible, how can anybody 'love' this guy? I acctuly watched him on Paul O'Grady and he claimed to get someones dog to leave a treat in 2 minutes and he didnt, the dog didnt even listen to him (some dog whisper that is) and he just spouted the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. He comes the whole 'domiance thing' all the time and its seriously boring.


He can, i believe I've seen it before on his show. If your dog doesn't get off the sofa when you ask, you are not necesserily 'submissive' but need to let your dog know this is not okay behaviour.

I agree on the forceful corrections, now I have read around there are many other ways to train the dog. However, had you not looked around and only seen the show, it is totally understandable why you would love him (I used too). He is passionate about what he does, and it appears so effective. Plus, the dog doesn't look unhappy in his eyes, just 'submissive' so it is easy to see why people like him so much.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I can understand how easy it is to be taken in by him I used to be then I saw the episode with the Jindo he "tamed". I realised very quickly how bad his methods were


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

The voiceover is so powerfully suggestive, isn't it? I think one of the best things you can do to really SEE what Millan does is to read up on canine body language, then turn off the sound of the DW episodes and just watch the dogs and what their bodies are saying.

Without that warm, soothing voice convincing you that you're looking at a 'calm submissive' dog you can see the body language for what it is. Very educational. And rather heartbreaking.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> The voiceover is so powerfully suggestive, isn't it? I think one of the best things you can do to really SEE what Millan does is to read up on canine body language, then turn off the sound of the DW episodes and just watch the dogs and what their bodies are saying.
> 
> Without that warm, soothing voice convincing you that you're looking at a 'calm submissive' dog you can see the body language for what it is. Very educational. And rather heartbreaking.


Very true. The voiceover is very distracting and is what hooks the viewer more than anything else I think.

There's always something to learn and these forums do allow us to exchange links and information to help others who have a genuine interest in learning too.  But none of us is an expert and it is always good to find out new things, even when we have been actively interested in dog training and behaviour for 37 years! (I just counted up this morning and now I feel so old!) I was eleven years old when I first decided to start educating myself about the subject after seeing my mum punish our puppy for not coming back. Then when I discovered canine behaviour, everything else made such sense! The times I have re-evaluated my learning over the years, changed my mind, tried out new things etc is amazing, lol but that is how we improve, by having an open mind. :thumbup:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Very true. The voiceover is very distracting and is what hooks the viewer more than anything else I think.


I'd have to dig out the psychology book, but I'm fairly sure research has proven that humans are more suggestible via audio than via visual information. I think it's something to do with having better filters for visual. 
You can show someone the same visual information, but give them completely different information via audio input, and they will end up with completely different impressions.

(the experiment I recall is video of someone walking down the street. One audio track tells a story about how the woman just got fired. Viewers said they could SEE (in her body language) that she was sad and downcast. The other audio track tells the story about how the woman has just had some great news, and the viewers said they could SEE in her body language that she was upbeat and cheerful. Ah, the power of suggestion!)


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## Spudlover (Oct 26, 2008)

Daggre said:


> He can, i believe I've seen it before on his show. If your dog doesn't get off the sofa when you ask, you are not necesserily 'submissive' but need to let your dog know this is not okay behaviour.
> 
> I agree on the forceful corrections, now I have read around there are many other ways to train the dog. However, had you not looked around and only seen the show, it is totally understandable why you would love him (I used too). He is passionate about what he does, and it appears so effective. Plus, the dog doesn't look unhappy in his eyes, just 'submissive' so it is easy to see why people like him so much.


I don't really want to get involved in the Cesar debate, I'd just like to share an experience I had with a dog trainer last year.
We adopted a rescue lab (Buddy) who was quite growly and a bit aggressive, so we needed professional help. I would often tell Buddy to get off the couch but he wouldn't move and as soon as I went close he would growl at me. Needless to say, I always backed off.:scared:
So this lady dog trainer comes in, Buddy is sprawled on the couch and she asked me to tell Buddy to get off! "Buddy off!". Nothing happened. "Buddy off!". Nothing. So she goes around the couch, grabs the edge of the throw Buddy is laying on, and tells him again to get off. Nothing. With a very quick jerk, she pulled the throw out from under him, in a way that forced him to get off - landing Buddy on his rump on the floor. The couch is thankfully quite low, and it was a bit of a thud, but I don't think Buddy hurt himself. I did go "ouch", she startled me a bit, I didn't think she'd do that, but I have to say, it did the trick! Ever since I only have to ask Buddy to get off the couch once. OK, sometimes twice!:thumbup:
So I just wanted to ask you guys whether you think that was an acceptable thing to do or not?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Spudlover said:


> I don't really want to get involved in the Cesar debate, I'd just like to share an experience I had with a dog trainer last year.
> We adopted a rescue lab (Buddy) who was quite growly and a bit aggressive, so we needed professional help. I would often tell Buddy to get off the couch but he wouldn't move and as soon as I went close he would growl at me. Needless to say, I always backed off.:scared:
> So this lady dog trainer comes in, Buddy is sprawled on the couch and she asked me to tell Buddy to get off! "Buddy off!". Nothing happened. "Buddy off!". Nothing. So she goes around the couch, grabs the edge of the throw Buddy is laying on, and tells him again to get off. Nothing. With a very quick jerk, she pulled the throw out from under him, in a way that forced him to get off - landing Buddy on his rump on the floor. The couch is thankfully quite low, and it was a bit of a thud, but I don't think Buddy hurt himself. I did go "ouch", she startled me a bit, I didn't think she'd do that, but I have to say, it did the trick! Ever since I only have to ask Buddy to get off the couch once. OK, sometimes twice!:thumbup:
> *So I just wanted to ask you guys whether you think that was an acceptable thing to do or not?*




Good question.

The thing is, life is full of aversives and nasty surprises. A dog sniffs a hedgehog and gets a pricked nose and learns not to do that again. Examples abound - for all living things, including humans.

The problem arises when the dog starts to associate the unpleasant event with the human. Sure, pulling the throw from under him will work - but what happens when he's on a sofa that doesn't have a throw? If you're lucky, he won't twig - but if he learns to associate being made to get off the sofa ONLY when there's a throw on it (and it's perfectly possible) then you're back to square one! And in any case, it's not a particularly nice thing to do (he could easily have hurt himself - I hope she's well insured), and there are kinder ways that are just as, if not more, effective. For instance, you say you only have to ask twice, sometimes. What happens if the sofa doesn't have a throw on it to pull, and you've asked twice and nothing happens?

TBH if that method was the only and first thing the trainer thought of, I wouldn't think much of her.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Spudlover said:


> So I just wanted to ask you guys whether you think that was an acceptable thing to do or not?


It wouldn't impress me that the behaviourist (loose term in this case) knew so little. Yes, it worked but then again hitting a dog with a tin tray to stop it jumping up 'works' but is no more acceptable IMHO.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> So I just wanted to ask you guys whether you think that was an acceptable thing to do or not?


Personally, I would've tried throwing a treat on the floor and saying off, and practising this until he got it, that would've been a last resort.

Perhaps if you'd never backed off when he growled he may've eventually got off, once he saw you were serious.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Terry you and i both know there has been cheap digs aimed at Cesar.Now i'm old enough and have broad enough shoulders to take this cr*p.But i will NEVER stand bye and say nothing when i believe in something and say nothing.To me i cannot see any fault with cesar and i've never hidden the fact.BUT! i know of numerous people that will no longer reply to threads involing him for fear of being shot down on here.IMO thats just not right.*


Im only getting involved to give jan a bit of support, and of course Cesar :thumbup: and also because I am not one of the people who particuarly cares about being shot down 

Not any one trainer/behaviourist gets it right every time. I don't use all his methods, nor would I use all of anybody elses.

What some see as cruel, others see as necessary, and therein lies the debate.

He has done an amazing amount for pitbulls, for highligting rescue dogs and educating owners in exercise, discipline and affection.

He successfully manages a pack of 30-40 dogs at any one time, many of them dogs which have had extreme behavioural problems. But of course, this is luck, or is it that he beats them all into submission 10 times a day? 

The population of the US is approx 300 million, with the UK sitting at about 60 million. The total members to this group has just hit 2600.

He is obviously doing something right...........

Way to go Cesar, RIP Daddy, we have not forgotten you x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...pulling the throw from under him will work - but what (if) he's on a sofa (with no) throw?
> (what) if he (groks) being made to get off the sofa ONLY when there's a throw on it... you're back to square one!
> ...


*Agreed! :thumbdown: 
if thats her first resort, she has a really pathetic tool-box of skills. 
worse, she is careless of the dogs safety :mad5: if he lands awkwardly, anything from funny-bone pain to a head-strike 
is possible. 
to say nothing of little regard for the First-Impression she makes on a dog... having the dog dislike, fear, or avoid me?! 
thats a disaster for any future work - U have just poisoned the most salient cue to You - 
Ur mere presence is an aversive :eek6: dumb, dumb, shoot-my-own-foot option! *

* i have used a drag-line / house-line, to gently tug on the collar from a distance 
*understand i work with dogs who may have bite-histories - PROXIMITY can be a bite-cue - *

* i have taught up and off with treats for performing each - 
*if need be, OFF gets better-quality treats - Up= kibble, OFF = chicken-breast, beef-cubes, dried-liver...  
up is easy; OFF needs help!  *

* i have had the owner call the dog to the kitchen (from the sofa), treat the dog there, 
then take the dog to a MAT of her/his own, + reward the dog for Down / Stay on the mat

* i have the dog do Puppy-Push-Ups on the sofa -- the dog gets in a habit of compliance! and *expecting reward for compliance* - 
then i insert an Off! in the endless chain of Sit, treat, Down, treat, Sit... 
and the dog, wonder of wonders, COMPLIES! :thumbup: major jack-pot, much warm sincere praise! :lol:

a dog who gets into a habit of camping-out on the sofa + refusing to dismount *because s/he expects punishment* 
needs to be broken-free of that habit of _Human demands - Dog digs-in defensively._ 
the dog needs a new-way to think / feel about complying with Off!, presented cheerfully with a pay-off, 
not the former dragging by collar, rude shoves, shouts, smacks, etc.

*if U have a hammer, everything looks like a nail - 
if all U have is aversives, then the dog is an adversary, not a potential ally. *


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

I agree with vic. His concepts are correct, the dog should walk to heel, not jump, and should have excersize, discipline,affection. However his theories and methods are incorrect. And i'm sure Cesar could get the dog to behave well through positive reinforcement if he had known this was the way to go, because he has such a calm energy.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> The population of the US is approx 300 million, with the UK sitting at about 60 million. The total members to this group has just hit 2600.
> 
> He is obviously doing something right.....


Oh geez, only 2600 people against his methods? Oh deary me.

Let's ignore all these organisations of experts, shall we?

ORGANISATIONS SUPPORTING THE POSITION STATEMENT


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Im only getting involved to give jan a bit of support, and of course Cesar :thumbup: and also because I am not one of the people who particuarly cares about being shot down
> 
> Not any one trainer/behaviourist gets it right every time. I don't use all his methods, nor would I use all of anybody elses.
> 
> ...


*So true..i have a mind of my own i will look for the good and bad in all.:thumbup:*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Considering the vast library of continuing education seminars, books and DVD's by professional trainers outlining specific techniques to modify aggressive behavior without the use of pain, fear or force, there really is no need to resort to flooding or domination to 'cure' bad behaviour in dogs. :mad2: Aggression is no mystery to those of us who regularly update our learning due to the research thats been done over the past couple of decades (possibly longer) meaning that we now understand the usual causes of aggression. 

Behaviour suppression is not a long term solution but then again, managing the environment and teaching acceptable alternative behaviors instead to create a 'new' habit is not really exciting to watch.: No bites, no blood, no ripped clothing, no seductive voice-overs spouting b*llsh*t. But the behavior is amended without the use of compulsion, force or aversives and the relationship between the dog and owner is kept whole and in some cases, enhanced.  I've been there, done that, got the T-Shirt with so many owners during many years that I spent doing not only training classes but private behavioural counselling too having often helped owners with biters, some of those under threat of destruction and never, not once did I have to use the archaic methods shown in 'that' programme! I never got bitten either in the course of my work and apart from one psychotic Golden Retriever who truly was mentally unwell poor soul, have never had to reccomend destruction. 

Most trainers speaking out against the negative methods have 10, 20 or even 30 years experience and have usually seen first-hand the problems they can create. That's why we care so much. That is why we are so concerned that these methods are being promoted so much and that people are being taken in. :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> He has done an amazing amount for pitbulls, for highligting rescue dogs and educating owners in exercise, discipline and affection.


 hey, vic! :--) 
plenty of other people have done *more* for pitbulls - 
________________________________________________ 
PETA, HSUS and ASPCA got Vicks dogs out from under a certain sentence of death, 
assessed the dogs, got them into foster + sanctuary, found them B-Mod trainers, etc.

**Animal Farm* in NY-state has been advocating for pitties and other bully-breeds (but primarily APBTs) 
for a couple decades - they have rescued, fostered, re-trained, placed, educated, _________ . 
*out of the pits* is another well-known former-fighters org, advocating + educating. 
Best Friends of utah 
Bad Rap in California 
all nationally known - all PRE-DATE *cm/dw* by years, with decades of work. 


goodvic2 said:


> He successfully manages a pack of 30-40 dogs at any one time, many of them dogs which have had extreme behavioural problems. But of course, this is luck, or is it that he beats them all into submission 10 times a day?


* the Dog-Psychology Center of L.A. is history - 
*the approx 60 problematic dogs who were boarded there, for money - * 
not re-trained - *were evicted before the property was sold.*

* if U have read his book, cesars way, U would know that the boarders received an average *every day* 
of SEVEN * HOURS of aerobic-exercise out of every 24-hour day. 
thats why there was staff there - to exercise the dogs.

do U - *or anyone else* - have 7-hours U can spare every day, to run dogs off paved areas on trails? 
for high-challenge games of chase / fetch with large groups of dogs, to stimulate competition? 
to bike-jor with the dog, swim the dog, roller-skate with the dog, teadmill-train the dog?



goodvic2 said:


> The popn of the US is approx 300M... the UK (approx) 60M.
> The total members to this (facebook group) has just hit 2600.


the roster of the Facebook-group hit 2600 in January 2010 - 
the membership just since this post has climbed by 5 or 6, just here on PF-uk, :lol: 
i am sure that the number 2600 is no longer accurate -

*and there are many, many ppl - myself included - who do NOT approve of jerking, poking, bitey-hands, stringing-up, 
Dumbinance, wolf-pack theory, etcetera ad nauseum - but i am not a member, am i? 
nor will i be - i don;t trust Facebook to keep my data safe.

is Dunbar a member? is Dodman? is mcConnell? is Geller? *pat miller*? 
*steve white*? *michelle frumento*? *bev truss*? **ali brown*? 
every one of those i have mentioned, is a pos-R advocate who has publicly denounced such aversive handling - 
but i would lay money none of them is on the Facebook-roster. * 
the Facebook-group is a puny shadow of the real-world numbers of trainers, vets, groomers, vet-techs, 
CAABs, Doctoral-behaviorists, handlers, pet-sitters, dog-daycare operators, and other dog-pros - 
*defined as ppl who earn $$ working with dogs -* who would immediately agree with the statements 
on this Facebook page, but will never join the Group.

2600 is not a 10% down-payment on the real-world number of *dog professionals* who;d agree with the statements on that page, 
and would sign a statement that said so - but have zero interest in joining a group.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> the roster of the Facebook-group hit 2600 in January 2010 -
> the membership just since this post has climbed by 5 or 6, just here on PF-uk, :lol:
> i am sure that the number 2600 is no longer accurate -


Just looked and it is now 3,120


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Just a thought. 

I started off many years ago (37 to be precise) subscribing hook line & sinker to the dominance theory, the whole 'shebang' in fact, choke chains, yank & yell methods, the lot! Luckily for dogs, I also had a need to learn new things - still do - and my opinions and methodology evolved as my knowledge expanded. It's not rocket science but it takes bravery, an open mind and a 'yearn to learn' attitude to re-evaluate your knowledge. I am glad I did it though, even it meant having to admit a few times that I had it all wrong. 

Oh and the group is now up to 3,169


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Just a thought.
> 
> I started off many years ago (37 to be precise) subscribing hook line & sinker to the dominance theory, the whole 'shebang' in fact, choke chains, yank & yell methods, the lot! Luckily for dogs, I also had a need to learn new things - still do - and my opinions and methodology evolved as my knowledge expanded. It's not rocket science but it takes bravery, an open mind and a 'yearn to learn' attitude to re-evaluate your knowledge. I am glad I did it though, even it meant having to admit a few times that I had it all wrong.
> 
> ...


That's the thing Caroline - you'll find plenty of trainers who started off using the bad old ways but then learned that positive methods work better.

However, I've never heard of it happening the other way round


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> ...plenty of trainers... (used) the bad old ways but then learned that positive methods work better.
> However, I've never heard of it happening the other way round


hey, pooh! :--) 
funny how that happens, :thumbup: many and many a trainer has said they moved from aversives and *corrections* 
to rewards and instructions - but i have yet to meet one who moved in the opposite-direction. 

personally, i Love! to meet newly-converted *born-again trainers - *
they are so enthusiastic, like kids with a new-toy or brand-new knowledge, its exciting and fun, full of wonder and surprises - 
and when it comes to *learning*, IMO thats what it should be: exciting, fun, with a sense of wonder.

if the surprises stop happening and the joy of the lightbulb-moment is gone, IME its time to stop teaching - 
taking pleasure in ones students and feeling their excitement and sense of accomplishment is crucial to teaching well. 
learning and teaching should be fun and exciting to both the teacher, who also learns, and the student - who also teaches.

*born-again trainers are great for catching the thrill again. :thumbup: *
if U lose Ur mojo, find a nice shiny-new born-again trainer + let it rub off them - 
or hook-up with a completely-novice animal of a different species, and see what the two of U can learn, together. 
if U have only taught dogs, teach a chicken, a parrot, a horse, a cat - or a bunny, a pig, or a llama. 
U will be astonished, i think - and U;ll get Ur majick back. 

born-again pos-R, 
--- terry


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, pooh! :--)
> funny how that happens, :thumbup: many and many a trainer has said they moved from aversives and *corrections*
> to rewards and instructions - but i have yet to meet one who moved in the opposite-direction.
> 
> ...


I'm a bit like that with clicker training - I have all the enthusiasm of a newborn religious zealot :biggrin:

I'm desperate to train different animals but my friend selfishly stopped her riding school, so I can't borrow a pony, and my OH, again selfishly, has a thing about small furries to I can't get a rat or similar 

I may have to resort to my other friend's daughter's guinea pigs. Although I generally dislike guinea pigs I might change my mind if I can teach one to do tricks :biggrin:


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

I want to be a trainer/behaviourust when I'm older =D And I had to re-evaluate my appraoch to dogs (I'm only 14) before all i'd seen was Cesar's methods, and to me they looked as though they were working, but now I've read around, and read allt he information you guys post I can say that the 'dominance theory' is not the best way to go xD However I still apply some of Cesars techniques, such as when you go shh, to a dog fixated on say the hoover, it diverts their attention =) 

I also read a great book by Jan fennell too =D And i've found since having a dog, applying that calmness and attitude to horses has improved my riding =D


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> I'm a bit like that with clicker training - I have all the enthusiasm of a newborn religious zealot :biggrin:
> I'm desperate to train different animals but my friend selfishly stopped her riding school, so I can't borrow a pony,
> and my OH, again selfishly, has a thing about small furries to I can't get a rat or similar
> I may have to resort to my other friend's daughter's guinea pigs. Although I generally dislike guinea pigs,
> I might change my mind if I can teach one to do tricks :biggrin:


YouTube - Sparkle Explains Clicker Training

YouTube - Amazing Rodents - 2009 Canis FIlm Festival Finalist

I YouTube - Dressurschweinchen1

II YouTube - Dressurschweinchen2

YouTube - Bunny Show Jumping

YouTube - clicker sheep


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Gotta see those^^ Specially bunny show jumping xD


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Hey, I've showed off my horse video, right?

YouTube - Horse clicker training

Includes nice demonstration of sticky behaviour + an example of overly large steps leading to frustration.. I really need to make a new vid, his towel trick is complete now


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

He,mis a beautiful horse =D


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I got into clicker training because when I got Leo he wouldn't let humans near him and I was looking up how to tame him and came across a site that used clicker training. He learned to be petted slowly and from using it to teach Buster a couple of tricks and how easy it was I was hooked. I've even taught Leo a couple of things which was harder. Never tried with Lily though


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daggre said:


> Gotta see those^^ Specially bunny show jumping xD


ha!  honey-chile, y;all aint seen *nuthin* till U see that critter * _change how they act - and change how they feel - _ 
all with that lil clicker-box an; some nice REwards. :thumbup: watch this... 
YouTube - An Abused Mule Responds to Clicker Training

or this - 
YouTube - CIA Case File: 'Tucker' Nail Trim

NOTICE the body-parl in the following 2 clips - 
the dog *stops actually biting* but is head-down, stiff, pupils wide - 
__________________________________________ 
BITING - YouTube - viva biting nail trim 
Not Biting - YouTube - viva nail trim no biting, after training 
notice her mouth is tense, eyes are very-dark (pupils huge), her EYEBROWS shift as she nervously tracks the groomers *hands*. 
they say this was pos-R B-mod, but we never see it - and altho she is not biting, the dogs body-parl is IMO un-changed. 
__________________________________________

this is NOT B-Mod, *imo* - 
YouTube - Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog 
as making the dog explode is not helpful.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I love the mule one I've seen it before. Much better than dragging him into the stall as some trainers might have tried to do


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

chickens are **_ Fast!_ ** --- they are very flighty, easily upset, not persuaded by punishment, and rapid-movement. 
they;re terrific for practice at slicing a goal-behavior thinly into simple steps; avoiding ALL aversives, as they shut-down or flee; 
and improving ones timing-skills.

after training a chicken, dogs are _*easy!*_ :thumbup:

TUTORIAL on operant-conditioning (OC) AKA Skinnerian conditioning 
YouTube - Chicken Learning. - Psych Tut 5: Learning processes (UCT) 
little India, the chick in this video, is approx 6-WO and has a bad foot - 
it creates minor problems now, but may become a serious issue as she ages + grows heavier. 
for now, she is a happy young chicken, learning eagerly.

YouTube - Chicken Agility

 YouTube - Chicken Fast Food Label Discrimination

YouTube - CHICKEN TRAINING: chaining 
BTW - knocking the water-bottle off platform-#2 is part of the obstacle course 

this bird has been taught that *Blue* is the correct answer - 
YouTube - Colour Discrimination Evauation 
notice how many other clickers, voices, etc, but the individual birds know which clicker/person is *theirs*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Clicker training and reward for response methods are so much more impressive especially when used with abused or aggressive dogs than positive punishment methods - choke/prong/electric collar, yank, yell, pin down and poke hard/hiss methods! May take a little more time and effort but the results are plain to see and the dog works 'happier' as a result! :thumbup:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Also super cool: hamster agility! YouTube - Unbelievable Hamster runs Dog Agility!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - Rat Training 1-Come by Name


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - mouse agility - early training

NOTICE that the course with the wooden-skewer obstacles is run over the equivalent of dried-liver tidbits: 
seed is all over underfoot.  yet the trainees focus admirably on their task. :thumbup:

_*enrichment alone - FUN, interest, novelty - 
is itself a reward during training; boredom when we pattern-train is a common culprit for loss of focus. *_ 
pattern-training is *same actions in the same order, in the same or similar setting * - dull, dull, dull... 
of course, Golden Retrievers often excel at pattern-training  Akitas, BCs and other thinking-breeds (vs compliant breeds  ) 
do not - they often check-out mentally, turned-off of training as an activity by boredom.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Been having a go with Lily she can come to her name now. Not sure she's up to agility yet but she's a fast learner.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

*Minipan shows what can be achieved with simple reward based methods* 

Look at her up on that sofa though! She must be sofa-dominant! 

:lol:​


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Smart guinea pig. But yes oh dear she's on the sofa clearly claiming it to dominate the humans . I wonder can you alpha roll guinea pigs


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Smart guinea pig. But yes oh dear she's on the sofa clearly claiming it to dominate the humans . I wonder can you alpha roll guinea pigs


I have 12 of them but I am not even going to try as they are clearly out for world domination and would probably assassinate me!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

12 . Don't you know that if you have more animals than humans in your house they'll take over


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> *I have 12 (Guinea-pigs) but I am not even going to try as they are clearly out for world domination and would probably assassinate me!  *


oh, dear...

[newscast breaks into light-classical on the radio] 
_mans voice, very somber - *this just in - 
a housewife in Little-Shropshire-on-Tittle has just been found dead in her home - 
her body had been partially consumed, but the cause of death was a noose round her neck, 
tied to a deadweight strung thru a ceiling-hook - she was lifted off the sofa and strangled, evidently while watching TV, 
as it was still on. 
the dogs in the house are cleared of suspicion as they had a self-feeder, and had moreover been blocked in the kitchen and dining-room, by a closed and locked door; 
the investigation now focuses on 3 cats, 7 Guinea-pigs and 8 rats.

the cord running thru the ceiling-hook was made of dog-hair and sisal-cord - the sisal-cord apparently came from 3 large cat-trees, whose trunks are now bare. the manner of cording is very unusual, the forensic specialist said he has never seen anything like it. 
we will keep our audience abreast of any developments... 
now back to the London Philharmonic performance of Handels selected water music... *_ [music resumes....]


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

LOL at Leashedforlife! :lol: You are probably right because if the dogs don't get me, the guinea pigs will because I pander to their every need too quickly! But then again, my dogs go out of the door before me as well! (because they move faster than I do!) I am doomed, doomed!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> ...if the dogs don't get me, the guinea pigs will because I pander to their every need too quickly!


_*the squeaking, aii-ahh!... :crazy: i can;t stand it, stop the squeaking... :mad2: 
thats how they control us, U know - they use ultrasonic squeaks to torture us, and shape human behavior to fulfill 
their goals :yikes: *_


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Good article here on the use of punishment (aversives) on dogs put together by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour. http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf
Page 3 and 4 are very interesting. 

With all this information out there, it makes you wonder why so many are so quick to use aversion and negative reinforcement to modify behaviour in dogs which after all, 99.9% of the time is caused by an owner! 

But then again, it takes less time and effort doesn't it?


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