# I can't do ths anymore



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

I am at my wits end with Clover, and I am resenting her now  She's always been barky, but it's got so much worse since Daisy arrived.

She barks at every dog walking past. She barks when I stop walking. She barks in the house... basically she barks all the bloody time 

I've tried everything.. keeping her on lead, no difference, doing the watch me game, no difference. shouting, no shouting, praising, ignoring, walking the other way. She is now on Zylkene. I've had a behaviorist in the past, no difference 

The barking at other dogs is fear based. Her barking when I stop is attention, and I can ignore her then.

I'm not an angry person. but right now after another barky walk, I am really angry at her, which I know doesn't help.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

Take a deep breath, it's totally normal to have a day when they just become a bit too much. My boys are *really* hard work, most of the time that's fine but every now and then they catch me on a bad day and it feels as though I can't cope with them.

Times like that I tend to just give up on any training achievements for the day and just enjoy their company with a cuddle on the sofa. Always wake up feeling able to manage and cope the next morning


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

first of all (((((hugs))))) and then some more (((((hugs)))))

i understand how you are feeling, Max can be like that and it wears you down. im sure someone will be along soon with some real help 

and just more (((((hugs)))))


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Grace_Lily said:


> Take a deep breath, it's totally normal to have a day when they just become a bit too much. My boys are *really* hard work, most of the time that's fine but every now and then they catch me on a bad day and it feels as though I can't cope with them.
> 
> Times like that I tend to just give up on any training achievements for the day and just enjoy their company with a cuddle on the sofa. Always wake up feeling able to manage and cope the next morning


But this isn't one day.. it's every day, every walk.. bark and bark and bark


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Can you afford a behaviourist at all CM for a fresh look if the old one didn't help? I am so sorry that it's wearing you down so much .


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Can you afford a behaviourist at all CM? I am so sorry that it's wearing you down so much .


No I can't , and I've had two in already. I am beginning to hate my own dog.. there said it now. Tears flowing hard


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> No I can't , and I've had two in already. I am beginning to hate my own dog.. there said it now. Tears flowing hard


I edited my comment as I know you've had one before (didn't know it was two). Perhaps your friend that looks after her sometimes could have her for a day or two for you until you are feeling slightly better to give you a break and give you time to come up with a plan?


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> No I can't , and I've had two in already. I am beginning to hate my own dog.. there said it now. Tears flowing hard


Been there done that with my naughty Basil and his constant scratching. Your not the only 1 hun and then i felt soo guilty that i had even thought that i hated him which made me hate myself! But you will get through it. BIG HUGS XXX


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2012)

Aww I really feel for you. As much as I would hate them maybe try a spray collar? Please don`t beat me up over this because they CAN be effective if used properly. Hope everything is better for you soon.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I edited my comment as I know you've had one before (didn't know it was two). Perhaps your friend that looks after her sometimes could have her for a day or two for you until you are feeling slightly better to give you a break and give you time to come up with a plan?


I don't want to send her away. It's not her fault. And she's worse when been with my friend.

She's def worse since Daisy arrived. It's hit my harder cos Daisy is so chilled doesn't bark, is confident etc. I know I shouldn't compare, but it's hard not to


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> I don't want to send her away. It's not her fault. And she's worse when been with my friend.
> 
> She's def worse since Daisy arrived. It's hit my harder cos Daisy is so chilled doesn't bark, is confident etc. I know I shouldn't compare, but it's hard not to


I don't mean as punishment. I thought maybe your stress was causing her stress, which makes her bark, which stresses you more, which stresses her more.....and on and on in a vicious circle. Thought maybe a break would bring the stress levels for both of you down and offer a little breathing space.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> But this isn't one day.. it's every day, every walk.. bark and bark and bark


Really sorry to hear it's wearing you down so much hun. Sam is the same except he does this God awful screech, you'd have to see it to believe it. I often feel like I put all of my effort into training him without it making a jot of difference, and like I said, occasionally it's just all too much. But when I look critically I can see he is making progress, it's just very, very slow. Can you see that in Clover?

You must be exhausted from feeling like it all the time, is there anyone who can walk Clover for you? They may find it easier if it's not a day-in, day-out thing that they have to deal with, and that way Clover will still get her exercise. Have you tried a DAP diffuser? Does she have any interest in toys/ food on walks?


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

aw hun im so so sorry, it can be hard, i was the same with zelda for a while i was in tears she wouldnt listen and did the opposite of what we were telling her etc.. I wanted to rewind time to having just 1 dog again.

On another note you're not alone I too have an illness (endometriosis) so i know health issues makes it soooo much harder and meds confuzz the best of us.

Wish i could give you a hug or just pop round and take clover out to give you a break but i dont drive. Hugs x


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Have you tried sound aversion? Something with a high pitched noise like a whistle? Our neighbours have a new dog that barks a lot (they leave it shut out in the garden) i use my whistle & it normally shuts up after that


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Some people say she isn't that bad, but they don't have it day in day out. I'm hating walks with her now


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Nataliee said:


> Have you tried sound aversion? Something with a high pitched noise like a whistle? Our neighbours have a new dog that barks a lot (they leave it shut out in the garden) i use my whistle & it normally shuts up after that


Tried a whistle, tried an ah sound, she just carries on barking


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## Shazach (Dec 18, 2008)

Can you teach her to carry a ball/toy when you walk?

My mother's terrier is a barker too, mainly when anyone comes home, but she's toy orientated and slowly we've taught her to get hold of her toy and although she will still try bark, her mouth is full and it's muffled and bearable!!


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Right, where are you? What have you tried? What did the behaviourists tell you and how long did you try it for. How consistent were you (honestly?).

What did shouting achieve? Did it make her nervous, did it make her stop barking AT ALL? (I mean for the attention seeking barking)


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Shazach said:


> Can you teach her to carry a ball/toy when you walk?
> 
> My mother's terrier is a barker too, mainly when anyone comes home, but she's toy orientated and slowly we've taught her to get hold of her toy and although she will still try bark, her mouth is full and it's muffled and bearable!!


Tried that, but she just drops the ball... and barks and barks


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Huge ((((hugs)))) coming your way. My first thought as I was reading was a behaviourist my second thought was a spray collar. I don't like them but I admit to using one with Jaz when she was about 2 yrs old. She started going into chase mode with other dogs and growling and barking when she caught them up, impossible to stop her - she never did it if on a long line and I could not get her to stop. A remote control collar with citrus spray was enough to stop this behaviour quickly and I never used it again. It may be worth a try to break the habit.

I hope you get some good advice on here, good luck x


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2012)

delca1 said:


> Huge ((((hugs)))) coming your way. My first thought as I was reading was a behaviourist my second thought was a spray collar. I don't like them but I admit to using one with Jaz when she was about 2 yrs old. She started going into chase mode with other dogs and growling and barking when she caught them up, impossible to stop her - she never did it if on a long line and I could not get her to stop. A remote control collar with citrus spray was enough to stop this behaviour quickly and I never used it again. It may be worth a try to break the habit.
> 
> I hope you get some good advice on here, good luck x


I found spray collars to be good when used correctly too


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

I've seen this behaviour first hand and it's incredibly ear splitting. I've never seen anything like it. I can get her to stop at my house by using the gravel bottle and saying enough! But when Clovers mum does it she just carries on and when we're out there's just no stopping her. She's ok when we're walking but when we sit on a bench it's bark bark bark. We decided not to walk until she stopped the other night and we had to sit on a bench for 10 mins waiting for her to stop so we could move

It is annoying and I wish I knew how to fix it but it's beyond my knowledge. Maybe a pet corrector or spray collar would work. Rewarding her for not barking doesn't make any difference she just scoffs the treat and starts again


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Shrap said:


> Right, where are you? What have you tried? What did the behaviourists tell you and how long did you try it for. How consistent were you (honestly?).
> 
> What did shouting achieve? Did it make her nervous, did it make her stop barking AT ALL? (I mean for the attention seeking barking)


I'm on Derby. The behaviorist said to the watch me game, which she does for a few seconds. I've taught her the quiet command, which she'll do until i give her the treat.

Shouting s the only thing thst stops her.. for a few seconds.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

metaldog said:


> I've seen this behaviour first hand and it's incredibly ear splitting. I've never seen anything like it. I can get her to stop at my house by using the gravel bottle and saying enough! But when Clovers mum does it she just carries on and when we're out there's just no stopping her. She's ok when we're walking but when we sit on a bench it's bark bark bark. We decided not to walk until she stopped the other night and we had to sit on a bench for 10 mins waiting for her to stop so we could move
> 
> It is annoying and I wish I knew how to fix it but it's beyond my knowledge. Maybe a pet corrector or spray collar would work. Rewarding her for not barking doesn't make any difference she just scoffs the treat and starts again


and she barks at other dogs.. all the time  Tried the pet corrector, she just ignored it


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Alfie is the same at barking at things and bad on a walk if its rained. I also have very serios health problems so understand.

On walking what helps is if i use a phrase for him and say it very loudly. 
His is 'straight through' when i say it he stops and keeps walking.

Give it a try. It may help.


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## Born2BWild (Jun 6, 2012)

Hello, 

Sorry to hear you're having a rough time with your dog, I know exactly what you're going through - my Terrier is exactly the same but now getting better...

Have you read BAT by Grisha Stewart - fab book!

And have you tried "training zones" ?

If you want someone to talk to who has experienced and still experiencing what you're going through then my inbox is always open to you, feel free to pm me for a chat about your dog and strategies I have used with mine (I know all dogs are different)

Has this behaviour developed over time, has your dog always been a barker or is it a recent behaviour change?

Have you got your dog health tested for Thyroid and liver and kidney function to rule out it being pain related?

Seriously, if you want a chat just pm me


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Any possibility of anything medical causing the constant bark- or defo all behaviour?

Only advice I can offer is maybe try some play/ training games where the mind is focussed on a task (dogs love a job).. see how that helps with mentally draining and building on your bond- what about training classes too- my dog was a riot at first (soo many stimuli for him- he couldn't have cared less what i said). Trainer plus talking to other owners helped me and helped me to stay calm when i felt frustrated with his behaviour.


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## beckp (Aug 13, 2012)

Aw hun I really feel for you it's heart breaking when it's not working out isn't it. Our dog is barky (although luckily not in the house just out) we're trying hard with her but we just can't get her stop, like you tried evrything we're going to try teaching her a bark and quiet command then see if that works. Hope things get better soon for you all.


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## Born2BWild (Jun 6, 2012)

Clicker training is a fab technique too...as soon as the clicker comes out my Terrier waits for what I ask and is so eager to do it right for her reward!


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

She's just had a health at the vets, so not in pain. Vet said she was obviously well looked after and in perfect health.

She has got worse since I got daisy


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have a barky dog, only he is a big dog who bays rather than barks, so I know exactly how you feel.
I've never liked noisy dogs, cant stand dogs whinging for no reason or barking excessively, yet I have ended up with one 

Sometimes I cant bear the noise and even ended up buying an anti bark collar several years ago but those are awful things and generally dont work. It gets me stressed out, it gets me wound up and I find myself losing my temper with him when he just keeps on barking. My situation is a bit different because he doesnt bark in a reactive way i.e at dogs, people, things etc, he barks to communicate to me i.e when he doesnt understand a command, when he wants a toy, when he gets frustrated, when he's excited etc.

I have no advise because i've never managed to get it under control really, but just wanted to say I know exactly how you feel.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

I am pretty new at the dog owning malarkie so i don't know what to advise but i didn't want to read and run  just wanted to send big **HUGS** and i hope everything works out  

sending more **HUGS** 
& Cali gives her **LICKS**


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## bugsalot (Jun 29, 2012)

sorry your having such a hard time . have you tired any of the antibark collars you can get . theyt do work . also get your self a squirty bottle infact 2 a smaller one for when your out . everytime she barks squirt her . or alternitivly get yourself a small plastic bottle and put some rice , spilt peas etc in it turn it into a shaker . and use it everytime she barks . belive me it does work . my mother has a dog eyeeye he is 2 and classes as a handicap dog he only has one eye and has a mental disorder . as his brain does nto function correctly , any noise or smell can set him of she uses the shaker to snap him out of his twists and barks . 
and it just came to me one other thing have you ever tried a thunder jacket .it calms dogs down i would try one . my mums stick eyeeye in his when ever vistors come round it calms him so much he does not bark . its worth a try . just dont give up perseverance she will learn and reward her when she is quite .


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I have a barky dog, only he is a big dog who bays rather than barks, so I know exactly how you feel.
> I've never liked noisy dogs, cant stand dogs whinging for no reason or barking excessively, yet I have ended up with one
> 
> Sometimes I cant bear the noise and even ended up buying an anti bark collar several years ago but those are awful things and generally dont work. It gets me stressed out, it gets me wound up and I find myself losing my temper with him when he just keeps on barking. My situation is a bit different because he doesnt bark in a reactive way i.e at dogs, people, things etc, he barks to communicate to me i.e when he doesnt understand a command, when he wants a toy, when he gets frustrated, when he's excited etc.
> ...


I understand that one. I am resenting her now. Thinking why can't she be like Daisy. we used to be so close


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## Born2BWild (Jun 6, 2012)

Now she has learnt the behaviour you will never be able to "cure" it as such but you can "adjust" it -

Pick a time of the day where there are less dogs where you usually walk and set up a "training zone" so a zone where your dog is at the nearest distance to the dog where she won't react (for example 50 yards) and work with that training zone - for the time being, stick to that zone, so if the other dog is coming nearer or visa versa then re direct - your aim will be to eventually get nearer and nearer without a reaction but this must be done slowly - you need to condition your dog around other dogs and desensitise her to the situation she would normally react in...

You can keep her focus by clicker, sit/down stays, tricks etc but as long as she isn't reacting...

Eventually you can decrease the distance from your dog to the other with your training zone - your training zone is yours and your dogs personal space - you shouldn't allow a situation where another dog comes in to your personal space and work with your dog in that zone...

You can get through this, believe me, I was in a position like you too but I'm now getting through it together with my dog, it won't happen over night and my dog and I are in the early stages but it does work


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

I have sent you a PM hon xx


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> I'm on Derby. The behaviorist said to the watch me game, which she does for a few seconds. I've taught her the quiet command, which she'll do until i give her the treat.
> 
> Shouting s the only thing thst stops her.. for a few seconds.


Lengthen the time between quiet + treat, phase out treat and introduce other rewards. Possibly introduce punishment. If it doesn't work you're moving too fast.

I know Ian Dunbar has a product coming out that teaches dogs to be quiet. It's a series of beeps and if the dog barks it resets to the start. At end of sequence it dispenses a treat. You obviously need to show the dog the game initially so that it "gets it". I was going to say rationing the dog's food out would be good but didn't clover have an anorexia problem? Maybe not a good idea. Perhaps using high value treats if possible.

You could perhaps try a spray collar.

What about when you engage her in other training? If you say sit doe she sit but bark still? If so then tell her to sit, and tell her quiet. She will eventually predict you telling her to quiet after she has sat. Eventually she will sit quietly. Do this with other commands also.

Tire her the hell out, use ear plugs if you must. If you can find somewhere enclosed to let her loose with a ball or whatever she wants to chase.

Have you tried staying stock still? sometimes actively turning away can be a game and a form of attention/interaction.

I'm just brainstorming ideas here.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> I understand that one. I am resenting her now. Thinking why can't she be like Daisy. we used to be so close


Being a gundog, i've always been under pressure to keep Flynn quiet because everybody knows that a noisy gundog is a useless gundog and it's such an undesirable trait. I've just come to accept that's how he is - I dont like it but I will never change it, especially after all these years. He's a highly strung, anxious dog that copes with situations by barking. I'm just thankful that the other 2 dogs are virtually silent otherwise i'd be on the verge!

I think if Flynn didnt have so many other redeeming features (IMO anyway!) and didnt have so many characteristics that I like in a dog then I would resent him in a big way. As it stands his barking is the only issue I find difficult to cope with but it pales in comparison to the things he has to offer, so thats the way I try to look at it.


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## Born2BWild (Jun 6, 2012)

A technique that is proving successful with Cleo:

Basic BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training) set-up;

1) Choice point (training zone) - dog notices the trigger from a safe distance - so pick a distance where your dog is below threshold and not likely to react. Look for loose lead and being under threshold.

2) Wait for a good choice - "replacement behaviours" being:
- Head turn
- Sniff ground
- Body turn
- Scratch
- Yawn
- Shake-off
- Soften eyes
- Ears to neutral
- Lip-lick
- Play bow

3) Mark - you need to mark the good choice at the precise moment, for example, a clicker and treats.

4) Functional reward - distance from trigger - walk or jog away from the trigger on a loose leash.

5) Optional bonus reward - food or toys - after the functional reward.

Hope this helps...


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Born2BWild said:


> A technique that is proving successful with Cleo:
> 
> Basic BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training) set-up;
> 
> ...


Excellent post for the fear barking


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I don't have much to offer because lots of people on here have much more experience that I have. But I think someone mentioned recording things down which is what I've done on my blog. I tend to think Molly hasn't done a thing of any good but often she has and the problems with the lead aggression seems so much worse to me. The author of the book Click to Calm was told that her dogs problems are 'just behaviour' which when I first read that sounded so condescending but in context it meant that it can be cured.

Practically I wondered if walking her alone is better or worse? Could you use stooge dogs like I am doing with Molly to help her lead aggression alongside the BAT technique? Molly barks at dogs in the car like mad and it's really dangerous if I'm driving. Like you I get really upset - either tearful or angry which is not good when you're behind the wheel. If I alone I take her in my OH's van, if we're together then I take her in my car but with one of us clicking and treating for good manners. 

I wish I could offer more help. But I wanted to say that I've met loads of dogs since we got Molly and wished I owned them instead. You're just human and maybe think that Daisy is the measuring stick and this is how great you want Clover to be. When I met my trainer I look at her 3 and dream of what great dogs they are and then pull it together and think okay how do I get Molly like that. And cos I'm a human with crap days sometimes I have a good cry and wonder what I've done to us.


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## dantum (Aug 13, 2012)

bugsalot said:


> also get your self a squirty bottle infact 2 a smaller one for when your out . everytime she barks squirt herQUOTE]
> 
> Anyone who does this to a dog should be pts. My older dog got this treatment as a pup from his first owner and as a result was terrified of water for over 15 months.
> 
> also to the op, sorry to say this but you sound like your looking for an excuse to get rid of the older dog? or trying to convince yourself that its going to be an option...


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

dantum said:


> bugsalot said:
> 
> 
> > also to the op, sorry to say this but you sound like your looking for an excuse to get rid of the older dog? or trying to convince yourself that its going to be an option...
> ...


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

dantum said:


> bugsalot said:
> 
> 
> > also get your self a squirty bottle infact 2 a smaller one for when your out . everytime she barks squirt herQUOTE]
> ...


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## dantum (Aug 13, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> dantum said:
> 
> 
> > erm no  Absolutely not. If you knew me you' know both dogs are my world, but especially the older one Clover. I feel angry you can make such an assumption without knowing me or my situation
> ...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

hayleyth said:


> dantum said:
> 
> 
> > I dont agree with the comment about the squirty water bottle. It works for some dogs amazingly well, and not all dogs them become scared of water, if your at your wits end its worth a try tbh. Its water, its the same as squirting them with a hose pipe like i do when its hot, its not acid for gods sake, much kinder than a shock collar.
> ...


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> dantum said:
> 
> 
> > erm no  Absolutely not. If you knew me you' know both dogs are my world, but especially the older one Clover. I feel angry you can make such an assumption without knowing me or my situation
> ...


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Sorry you're having a hard time 
Ignore the idiot newbie, you can't come on here and make a judgement like that on someone :mad2: I hope they leave as quickly as they butted in! :lol:


Have you tried the squirty bottle?
At class- which is a very good class, reward based etc, sometimes a squirty bottle is used at noisy dogs-though Not for the fear based barking.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

dantum said:


> cloversmum said:
> 
> 
> > OK Just how your coming across. I mean you did actually say you hated the older dog...Dramma llama
> ...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

dantum said:


> cloversmum said:
> 
> 
> > OK Just how your coming across. I mean you did actually say you hated the older dog...Dramma llama
> ...


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

cloversmum said:


> Why are you been so damn nasty. I don't need this crap right now


Ignore the stupid little troll 

And - 'you CAN do this, we are all here to try and help you'


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your useful idea's on this tread and PM. I will reply to PM"s tomorrow 

For now I feel I've got an action plan, and will be trying them out in the coming days  Thanks again guys for being there


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

dantum said:


> cloversmum said:
> 
> 
> > OK Just how your coming across. I mean you did actually say you hated the older dog...Dramma llama
> ...


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

dantum said:


> cloversmum said:
> 
> 
> > OK Just how your coming across. I mean you did actually say you hated the older dog...Dramma llama
> ...


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## foxyrockmeister (May 30, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> dantum said:
> 
> 
> > Why are you been so damn nasty. I don't need this crap right now
> ...


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Have you tried a thundershirt? They are really good for calming dogs.


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## dantum (Aug 13, 2012)

Look its always negative posts about the dogs with op, I'm not just butting in, I've been a lurker for a while but felt the need to sign up to reply to this one, just because theres the word newbie under my username, doesn't mean you have some sort of higher social standing! or more knowledge on the matter.

Op cheer up and try and focus on the positives of owning dogs


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

dantum said:


> bugsalot said:
> 
> 
> > also get your self a squirty bottle infact 2 a smaller one for when your out . everytime she barks squirt herQUOTE]
> ...


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## foxyrockmeister (May 30, 2011)

By the way, what's going on with the quotes in this thread? They're all quoting the wrong people!!

I think we've entered a parallel universe :crazy:


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> Have you tried a thundershirt? They are really good for calming dogs.


Actually clover does have one.. I will try that again. Thanks


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

dantum said:


> Look its always negative posts about the dogs with op, I'm not just butting in, I've been a lurker for a while but felt the need to sign up to reply to this one, just because theres the word newbie under my username, doesn't mean you have some sort of higher social standing! or more knowledge on the matter.
> 
> Op cheer up and try and focus on the positives of owning dogs


if you have been lurking you would understand CM's situation more AND she often posts about how amazing her girls are and how much she loves them....


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> No I can't , and I've had two in already. I am beginning to hate my own dog.. there said it now. Tears flowing hard


No you don't. If you did you wouldn't be here.

It seems like you are constantly waiting for the problem to be there and so you are constantly seeing it (or hearing it).

You are wound up and waiting for it to the extent where you are not really hearing the bits where there is nothing to hear.

I had this with Red and it got better when I just acknowledged the quiet moments (with sausage and chicken and treats and a calm voice), then the minute I saw the signs she was to go it was a sharp 'A' and a sausage in my hand then a calm voice....she made her choice and although not perfect...has become much better... we are on 'A' and fuss while she grumbles!

Some of us are not blessed with easy babies and sometimes they never will be. I appreciate that


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

dantum said:


> Look its always negative posts about the dogs with op, I'm not just butting in, I've been a lurker for a while but felt the need to sign up to reply to this one, just because theres the word newbie under my username, doesn't mean you have some sort of higher social standing! or more knowledge on the matter.
> 
> Op cheer up and try and focus on the positives of owning dogs


A few positives for you .

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/250756-i-love-my-girls.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/250320-socialization.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/248231-whooo.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/249467-lovely-day.html


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

dantum said:


> Look its always negative posts about the dogs with op, I'm not just butting in, I've been a lurker for a while but felt the need to sign up to reply to this one, just because theres the word newbie under my username, doesn't mean you have some sort of higher social standing! or more knowledge on the matter.
> 
> Op cheer up and try and focus on the positives of owning dogs


When is it always negative with me and the dogs? Last night I posted Daisy was doing better , last Friday I posted about a nice walk with metaldog. If you don't like my posts don't reply


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## Lisaj (Feb 4, 2011)

I just want to wish the OP best of luck with this. I hope you get it sorted.

x


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

dantum - I don't really think your comments are helpful or appropriate. Cloversmum has enough to deal with, without someone acting like they can predict what she wants. 

Cloversmum - Hugs from me hun, chin up and keep pushing.  I wish I was close by so I could come over and give you a hand.xxx


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## dantum (Aug 13, 2012)

BeagleOesx said:


> dantum said:
> 
> 
> > I do not normally get involved in threads which become heated but I am sorry I cannot bite my tongue on this one. With all due respect you do not know anything about the OP and although I do not know her personally I do know that in no way would she ever consider this option. She loves her dogs dearly and they are her life and this is why she raised the question about the barking to see whether anyone on here has any suggestions. I know we are all allowed our opinions about matters but for your first post this just seems confrontational
> ...


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Wow, now the newbie knows more than we do! :lol:

Hopefully they will get bored soon.


Ohhhhhhhhhh on another note my fear is on its way over and I bloody HATE thunder and lightning, it's always when the OH is out :mad2: 
Help?


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

dantum said:


> Look its always negative posts about the dogs with op, I'm not just butting in, I've been a lurker for a while but felt the need to sign up to reply to this one, *just because theres the word newbie under my username, doesn't mean you have some sort of higher social standing! or more knowledge on the matter.
> *
> Op cheer up and try and focus on the positives of owning dogs


IRL no, but on this forum actually we do because we're a community of dog lovers who know each other quite well and support each other through the good and bad times.

Cloversmum is having a bad time at the moment and you don't know the half of it. You're making a (very wrong) judgement call so, please if you really care at all just back off. Pick on me if you want, as much as you want to I can take it but leave Clover's mum alone.

BTW I know her in person as well as on a forum


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

dantum said:


> BeagleOesx said:
> 
> 
> > so even though you have never met the op and only have what has been written on the forum to go on, you know her better because you signed up before me and have a few K on me post wise? As I say, I probably have as good an idea of her circumstances as anyone on the forum as non- members can actually read the forum too
> ...


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## dantum (Aug 13, 2012)

PoisonGirl said:


> Wow, now the newbie knows more than we do! :lol:
> 
> Hopefully they will get bored soon.
> 
> ...


When did I say that?


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

dantum said:


> so even though you have never met the op and only have what has been written on the forum to go on, you know her better because you signed up before me and have a few K on me post wise? As I say, I probably have as good an idea of her circumstances as anyone on the forum as non- members can actually read the forum too


but there are lots of people on here who have met her and know her more than just the posts she puts on here......

seriously what is your problem , or do you just enjoy kicking someone when they are down???


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

PoisonGirl said:


> Wow, now the newbie knows more than we do! :lol:
> 
> Hopefully they will get bored soon.


Was that to me?

I can leave if it was. I have no desire to offend.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Ray Craig said:


> Was that to me?
> 
> I can leave if it was. I have no desire to offend.


Don't think so....all the quotes are mixed up!!


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Ray Craig said:


> Was that to me?
> 
> I can leave if it was. I have no desire to offend.


I don't think she meant you


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Ray Craig said:


> Was that to me?
> 
> I can leave if it was. I have no desire to offend.


i think it was meant to dantum, not you


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## foxyrockmeister (May 30, 2011)

dantum said:


> so even though you have never met the op and only have what has been written on the forum to go on, you know her better because you signed up before me and have a few K on me post wise? As I say, I probably have as good an idea of her circumstances as anyone on the forum as non- members can actually read the forum too


So you do know Cloversmum's situation because you've been lurking around here in the background for ages, and yet you still post a comment like that? Says a lot about the sort of person you must be then.

If I were you I would have pleaded ignorance and you may have been accepted, but to admit that you are in fact well informed yet still think that sort of response is appropriate just shows that you must be the latter of my two previous options


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

dantum said:


> BeagleOesx said:
> 
> 
> > so even though you have never met the op and only have what has been written on the forum to go on, you know her better because you signed up before me and have a few K on me post wise? As I say, I probably have as good an idea of her circumstances as anyone on the forum as non- members can actually read the forum too
> ...


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Hey hun, i know you have been ill with a bug this week so these things will get on top of you quicker 

Have you done much one to one with Clover since you have got Daisy ? Also try to relax (easier said than done!) dogs will pick up on your anxiety. 

I think you have been loaded with good advice, good luck x


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

dantum if you feel the need to be nasty feel free to be as horrible as you like to me.... just leave cloversmum alone, she doesnt deserve or need it


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

dantum said:


> When did I say that?





dantum said:


> Look* its always negative posts* about the dogs with op, I'm not just butting in, I've been a lurker for a while but felt the need to sign up to reply to this one, just because theres the word newbie under my username, *doesn't mean you have* some sort of higher social standing! or *more knowledge on the matter*.
> 
> Op cheer up and try and focus on the positives of owning dogs


THIS spells that a)you have read all of the OP's posts, and b) that none of us know more about her than you do.
Go away, this forum doesn't need posters like you.


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## Born2BWild (Jun 6, 2012)

Woah! Leave poor Cloversmum alone! She has written a thread because she would like advice, help and support - isn't that what this forum is about...helping one another? There was no need for the comments that have been made - she is having a tough time as it is and has clearly tried damn hard with her dog/s and is looking for new ideas - if you're so perfect and have a perfect dog then why don't you go out the same way you came in ? You can hardly give yourself the right to make the comment you have made being a newbie and not really knowing the people on this forum - NEVER judge a book by its cover - you don't know Cloversmum and therefore should not judge...no body is perfect - I too have been in the exact same position with my dog and know exactly what she is feeling, as do many others. I think you should get off your high horse and back down as you have not long been on here and have already been rude and judgemental to a valued PF member...now jog on. 

Cloversmum - do not take any negative peoples comments to heart - you clearly love your dogs or you wouldn't be on here  Xx


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## dantum (Aug 13, 2012)

foxyrockmeister said:


> So you do know Cloversmum's situation because you've been lurking around here in the background for ages, and yet you still post a comment like that? Says a lot about the sort of person you must be then.
> 
> If I were you I would have pleaded ignorance and you may have been accepted, but to admit that you are in fact well informed yet still think that sort of response is appropriate just shows that you must be the latter of my two previous options


Absolutely spot on, I feel that my comments have been taken as more horrific than they actrualy are, I stand by them but will add no more to this thread. :Yawn:


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

It is so easy to make a judgement. I always remember before I had children witnessing a tantrum. I knew exactly what I would do....I would cuddle the child until it stopped....then I had a child throwing a tantrum...get a tiger by the tail - I'ts easier!

If you have a beautifully behaved dog, then good luck to you and enjoy it...I did.

But sometimes you don't get that lovely child or beautifully behaved dog that responds well to your efforts. So you go to a forum like this one in desperation for fresh ideas because you don't hate them for more than a second - you are just so bloody frustrated that you want to weep and hide, and you feel such a failure...We will try anything! seriously If you tell us to shove garlic up their bums, we would consider it....we just want calm and happy dogs!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

You know me and you know what I do. I can meet you anytime anywhere and try and work out a plan of action with her


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

hawksport said:


> You know me and you know what I do. I can meet you anytime anywhere and try and work out a plan of action with her


Please I would really appreciate that. You're busier than me, so say a time and place... and thank you


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

dantum said:


> Absolutely spot on, I feel that my comments have been taken as more horrific than they actrualy are, I stand by them but will add no more to this thread. :Yawn:


Good. Sod off and let those of us who actually give a damn help her through this. Dear God you trolls are everywhere. Oh I have been lurking and just waiting for the right time. You don't bother to come on any other time and add something constructive. Nooo. Shows exactly the type of person you are that you come on here and kick someone when they are down. Your comment was uncalled for, and at a time like this unwanted.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

How does elvaston castle sound. I would have enough dogs to work with and enough space to work at a distance she is capable of working at


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

hawksport said:


> How does elvaston castle sound. I would have enough dogs to work with and enough space to work at a distance she is capable of working at


That would be great  I'm not sure were the bus drops me off in relation to the park, but will find it . Thanks so much


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Do you still have the link to my phone number?


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Do you still have the link to my phone number?


I don't sorry.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

oh OP I know exactly how you feel, some days it really does get on top of you


Tonight I went to Camera Club, I took Willow. So that left all the cresteds at home.
They had been walked, fed and left really juicy kongs when I left - excellent no howling when i left - except I forgot my handbag so had to come back and get it, which then becomes a guantlet to try and escape the house again because this time they know what I am up and DESPITE having a baby gate up before the front door two of them can fit between the bars , CUE howling as I left  

I arrive home at 10.45, before I can even get my camera tripod etc out the car, they know I am there so they start grumbling and barking THEN full scale howling!!!! now my neighbours are great but this is ridiculous and totally not acceptable!!! 
In the house I manage to get, promptly into the kitchen and into a squishy poo on the floor!!! in my socks

You can't sit down for the first 3 minutes of being in the house for fear of being attacked from all sides by over loving cresteds 

But I like you, will work through it one step at a time
Bombers howling has improved since we got him I will keep working on it, the baby gate I will modify tomorrow so Dillon and Minty cant fit through the bars, the squishy poo, well we'll have to wait and see who's that was  :lol:

Good luck Cloversmum I know you can do this, 


Vickix


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## brackenhwv (Mar 28, 2010)

This what this forum is about , support thru bad times, which sometimes we have more of that than the fun times, believe me I know ! and sharing good things too. But if you are having a problem just what is wrong in posting about it and seeking help Dantum ? Lucky lucky you if you have dog that never gives you any bother or are you such a good trainer that it all just falls into place ? How about a bit of compassion and empathy for someone who is having a bit of a time with her dog ? Have you never been in that position ? You should muzzle it unless you can say something constructive that would help the situation, instead of adding to CMs anguish. 
CM don't let this turkey get you down xx


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I will send it to you again later. Find out where the bus stops and stop worrying. She's a nice little dog, I'm sure we can do something with her


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I will send it to you again later. Find out where the bus stops and stop worrying. She's a nice little dog, I'm sure we can do something with her


Just found the link  Shall I phone tomorrow ?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Anytime before 4pm


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## jayne5364 (Oct 21, 2009)

Good luck hun, hope between you and Hawksport you can begin to resolve Clovers issues. Don't be worrying too much about the neg comments, look how many positives there are. You're a valued member and very well thought of/cared about xx


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## turbojolt (Aug 6, 2012)

keep a water bottle with you on walks when she kicks off spray her in the face with it saying NO!! then keep moving on she will soon learn, ive seen it work wonders more then a few times


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## Aims (Jun 29, 2011)

I havnt anything constructive to add as I'm still wearing my L plates, but like children dogs arnt born with a hand book on how to operate each dog is special and individual. 
You have a great community here for you with lots of advice and support you have every right to vent an let off steam and seek advice so pls don't take onboard silly comments made by thoughtless know it alls!
Wishing you a better day tomorrow and (((hugs)))


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2012)

cloversmum, I haven't had the problem - if anyone barked much, it was solved without me remembering, early on. and it was never an issue. The main problem is the habit, now.

One thing I do with all the dogs that come with problems. is take em to bed, A LOT. In bed, under the blankets, warm, snuggly, safe, quiet, one to one, and if they are a bit wiggly, massage until they settle. Hours snuggled. When they get up with me, they are often so much calmer, and I think, feel safer.

Hawksport will tell you that if you can get a wild bird to sleep while you are next to them, and they wake, and you are still there and they are safe, it breeds trust. Nothing is so vulnerable, as asleep. I'm not saying thet clover doesn't trust you, but honestly, it seems to be so calming, so bonding... and I've never had a dog bark in bed... If you don't like dogs in bed, put a sheet over your sheet, get Clover to lie that, then cover her with the other side.. 

You won't have a dog that EXPECTS bed. Mine don't, but if it is offered, if cold, they don't wait to be asked twice. 

I also do a lot of massage. It is a great bonder, great calmer, and when a dog has orgasm face, from the perfect spot you found, (leers off, gents and ladies), they aren't capable of barking. 10 mins of good massage, should have your dog floppy with ecstacy. That orgasm face, with massage, is also a very good time to gently wiggle anything precious they have grabbed and won't give back, from their mouth. Keep the one hand working on the good spot they are loving, and very low key, check, and you'll find the grip is loose, and you can often gently work it, so it falls out of their mouth, and then smoothly slide it out of their sight. If you are subtle, they are so ecstatic, they don't notice. Don't stop immediately, either, after getting your precious item back,or they will learn to grip it like hell, AND they'll justifiably feel used.

Big hugs. We all have 'days', you, poor burger, seem to have months. Wish I could take her to give you a break. hugs. Where I am, she could bark for 48 hours solid, and I have no close neighbours... but if she was asked to choose between bed and bark, she'd be the 1st to choose barking.

Once you have learned the secret of orgasm face dog massage, your dogs see you as a dealer. Not drugs, but touch. They YEARN for your touch, and you have it with you, everywhere. Barking? Come here...touch, begin the magic fingers along the spine... bark... walk away. Lost it.

HUGE hugs.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

Hope you are feeling a bit more positive this morning, cloversmum. Fingers and paws crossed here that with hawksport's help you can solve this problem. If not just send clover to live with me  if I can cope with Shirley's constant questions alday, clover's barking will be a piece of cake.

In a perfect world, we would all have perfect dogs but then again life would be very boring. When I had both opie and jax I used to dread getting up, not knowing if I was going to have a nice day or whether today was the day they'd try and kill each other again. I don't have that problem any more but I still have other little issues for me and opie to work on. 

Thank you, hawksport, for showing the true spirit of this community and offering to help cloversmum :thumbup:


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

CLOVER'S MUM:

I really do feel for you. Although Dex's problems are different he too is highly reactive and will bark and lunge violently in response to sooo many things. You must be exhausted, no wonder you are feeling upset.

*I just wonder, is there any chance your insurance *might* cover a behaviourist if vet referred.....?*

Failing that, I think you may have to get ear plugs and see what happens if you really do ignore your girl for a longer time - if she's learned that she can always get some form of response from you, ignoring it may be something to try, but I appreciate how hard this may be.....

It's very tiring when one has a nervous or fearful dog, and as desperately as one wants to help them, there are days when one could scream - I know I have 

Is it possible that Clover needs extra attention now that Daisy is here? I'm guessing you've already thought of this but am mentioning it just in case.

Hang in there


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

We are meeting up with Hawksport tomorrow morning. Feeling more positive today


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

i know how you feel cloversmum, dinky is my barker, she barks at anything from people, other dogs to leafs blowing in the wind, she's getting better but she has days when it seems all she does is bleeding bark, i bought a pet remedy difuser Pet Remedy Natural De-Stress and Calming Plug-In Diffuser, 40 ml: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies which is brilliant, she's less stressed and doesn't seem to bark as much as she use to. i have also been teaching all the dogs enough when they bark, it's slowly sinking in with them but my lot are stubourn little hounds so it's taking longer to teach them, i have also got my sisters 4 (2 chihuahuas, a dachshund and a chiweenie) who don't listen to me (they listen to my sister) and are proper delinquents so i have 8 dogs today (i'm counting down the hours till tonight when she's back to pick them up) 

i love them all really


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> We are meeting up with Hawksport tomorrow morning. Feeling more positive today


I'm under pressure now after two pros failed


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> No I can't , and I've had two in already. I am beginning to hate my own dog.. there said it now. Tears flowing hard


This is one of the saddest things I've read - sorry no advice [tho you've had plenty of good on here xx] but much luv to ya xxx



dantum said:


> OK Just how your coming across. I mean you did actually say you hated the older dog...Dramma llama


Guess how you're coming across??? 



dantum said:


> I've been a lurker for a while


Hmmm, might be best if you go back to being one too?


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> We are meeting up with Hawksport tomorrow morning. Feeling more positive today


Great news - Well done Hawksport for offering your help, you're brilliant and I am sure Cloversmum will appreciate anything you can do. I hope you have a good morning and that little Miss Clover monkey shows herself to be the star pupil 

Cloversmum I hope you will let us know how you get on - glad you're feeling more positive today - onwards & upwards x


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

BeagleOesx said:


> Great news - Well done Hawksport for offering your help, you're brilliant and I am sure Cloversmum will appreciate anything you can do. I hope you have a good morning and that little Miss Clover monkey shows herself to be the star pupil
> 
> Cloversmum I hope you will let us know how you get on - glad you're feeling more positive today - onwards & upwards x


We're not going to do much tomorrow. Most of it will be watching and listening to what Clover is trying to tell us. Then we can work on the problem rather than the sympton. The one advantage I have over a pro is time


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

My biggest fear is that Clover will behave perfectly and make me out to be a lair LOL


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> My biggest fear is that Clover will behave perfectly and make me out to be a lair LOL


They have a habit of doing that


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I'm under pressure now after two pros failed


Just a bit .


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I really sympathise with you because I know exactly what that's like except Bruce only does it in the house. Sometimes if I know I have a man coming to service the boiler or such I put him in an upstairs bedroom because I know I won't be able to hear the guy over his incessant barking. Bruce literally doesn't stop to take a breath and it's so embarrassing as well as infuriating. Passers by, people here coming home from work, dogs outside just about anything starts him off and at eight I don't think he will ever change. Even if a neighbour knocks I can never invite them indoors because Bruce will sound off and not stop till they've gone, even barking for a while afterwards. I've given up trying all different methods and just shut him upstairs. With him out of the way none of the others make a sound and the Mals never bark at all.

((((((HUGS))))) as I know how upsetting it is. xxx


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

hawksport said:


> You know me and you know what I do. I can meet you anytime anywhere and try and work out a plan of action with her


I think you're ace! And I don't actually know who you are!


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

missnaomi said:


> I think you're ace! And I don't actually know who you are!


You are right, he is


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

missnaomi said:


> I think you're ace! And I don't actually know who you are!


If you did you might change your mind


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

hawksport said:


> If you did you might change your mind


Don't be modest


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> No I can't , and I've had two in already. I am beginning to hate my own dog.. there said it now. Tears flowing hard


At least you're being honest and I think if we are all honest we have all had days like that or times like that whether it has been with pets or children! :001_unsure:

Have you tried the citronella spray collar? My friend has a mini schnauzer who barks at everything, even when her own children get up and go to the loo or the wind blows or someone goes up or down stairs!! The collar really works and she now only has to show him it and he shuts up! ???


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Well Hawksport was amazing  I hope I explain this right. I am very tired.

Basically Clover is a bit bored and worried. As Daisy is so confident and goes to other dogs/people readily, it worries Clover, as she is nervous. She barks cos she doesn't trust me to keep everything safe and in control

So Harksport showed me on to help keep Clover's focus on me so she can't worry about what is going on around her 

I'm also going to do some training with her to stimulate her mind, and stop her being bored.

Can't wait to put stuff into practice now.. thanks Hawksport, and hope I've explained it OK


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> Well Hawksport was amazing  I hope I explain this right. I am very tired.
> 
> Basically Clover is a bit bored and worried. As Daisy is so confident and goes to other dogs/people readily, it worries Clover, as she is nervous. She barks cos she doesn't trust me to keep everything safe and in control
> 
> ...


that sounds like you had a really useful walk - it's one thing for people on a forum to give suggestions but nothing compares with someone actually observing all the interactions and being able to interpret them so you can work on the root of the problem rather than just the symptom.
I hope you are able to help Clover feel more confident now you know what she's been trying to tell you, and that you can enjoy her again. Good luck.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

It's amazing. Now I know why she's been barking, I can tackle it with Harksports suggestions 

Also going to do one walk each a day on their own  To do training with Clover, and socialization/training with Daisy


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

You haven't done such a bad job of bringing her up and although it is very annoying her barking isn't that big a problem. You could see an improvement just in what we did today, she never even looked at the muzzled Am Bulldog that we went over to and intercepted


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## 1990steph (Jul 19, 2012)

Have you ever wanted to try a citronella collar. It doesn't hurt the dog in anyway. What happens is there is a burst of spray that comes out when the dog barks. The dog then thinks its done it to themselves and apparently they learn not to bark as the dogs don't like it. They don't end up associating you with the collar but they associate their bad behaviour with it. If you have tried everything else then i would suggest giving it a go. I have heard of many people experiencing what you are going through and apparently they tried the collar and it worked.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

1990steph said:


> Have you ever wanted to try a citronella collar. It doesn't hurt the dog in anyway. What happens is there is a burst of spray that comes out when the dog barks. The dog then thinks its done it to themselves and apparently they learn not to bark as the dogs don't like it. They don't end up associating you with the collar but they associate their bad behaviour with it. If you have tried everything else then i would suggest giving it a go. I have heard of many people experiencing what you are going through and apparently they tried the collar and it worked.


Thanks, but no thanks. I would rather work out the reason, and deal with it properly instead of just suppressing the problem


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

That sounds brilliant. It must be nice to understand 'why' Clover is actually barking. Good luck with it all and what a star Hawksport is for helping.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> That sounds brilliant. It must be nice to understand 'why' Clover is actually barking. Good luck with it all and what a star Hawksport is for helping.


He was so patient and explained things so well


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> He was so patient and explained things so well


Lovely, do you think he wants to come over here and help me next.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I could of stoped the dog barking today but the underlying problems would still be there waiting to come out in a new symptom. Along with focus on her owner she is going to be allowed to make choices and when she makes the right choice she will be rewarded. It will take a while but she will get there


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Cloversmum, I am so glad it went well today, you sound so happy and positive again now  I'm sure it will take time and hard work but you can do it xxx
Hawksport - you are a star :thumbup:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Don't forget your diary because changes will be slow and sometimes you will feel you aren't getting anywhere but a look in your diary will show you how things are getting better


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> Thanks, but no thanks. I would rather work out the reason, and deal with it properly instead of just suppressing the problem


i'm so pleased you said this . I'm actually surprised how many people suggested an aversive

This is what I posted about citronella collars on a thread in the training and behaviour forum and think it is worth posting here. ( hope you don't mind CM)

_Punishment teaches a dog what not to do, it doesn't teach them what you want them to do in a given situation.

Punishment often just causes the dog to supress the behaviour without an alternative behaviour encouraged the initial one is likely to resurface

Punishment often causes avoidance behaviours, of the situation or person administering the punishment, although of course in this case this person is allowing a collar to give the dog the equivalent of a whack on the nose I guess they realise the dog would avoid them if they did it themself.

Punishment can cause dogs to avoid anything close to the behaviour that has been punished.

Just because we can punish doesn't mean we should, Tools like these allows us to keep our hands clean, when we find adminstering punishment distasteful and make no mistake this is a physical punishment with the olfactory system of dogs so sensitive "blinding" them with a strong smell is more than a little unpleasant._

I wish you every success with your two very much loved dogs CM  Sounds like you have a wonderful positive plan and fantastic support


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

hawksport said:


> I could of stoped the dog barking today but the underlying problems would still be there waiting to come out in a new symptom. Along with focus on her owner she is going to be allowed to make choices and when she makes the right choice she will be rewarded. It will take a while but she will get there


This made me smile today. At the risk of sounding like a right hippy, it says it all...love and understanding.

BUT just like with children, it is so easy to stop one thing, but if you do it without the love and understanding then you can just sit back and wait for the bigger problem


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Ray Craig said:


> This made me smile today. At the risk of sounding like a right hippy, it says it all...love and understanding.
> 
> BUT just like with children, it is so easy to stop one thing, but if you do it without the love and understanding then you can just sit back and wait for the bigger problem


I'm not a great believer of teaching a dog not to do something, I would rather teach them to do something else


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Sometimes is does just take an outsider to watch and spend time because it is far better to stop the behaviours with understanding and love to support the dog to choose to stop rather than force.

Love your dog for everystep forward or a little backwards and you will get there. 

Well done hawksport for being so kind to help.


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

hawksport said:


> I'm not a great believer of teaching a dog not to do something, I would rather teach them to do something else


THANK YOU!

i had an argument with my mother who thought that when Red refused to step back from the door after barking was wrong...I said that she was right but needed to be distracted when she had done the good thing.

She Barks, and she goes and collects her toy and is fussed for it....Everything she does is Good, because I am interested in telling her how good she is...the awkward stuff, we ignore or take her past with no fuss.


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## Sprocker Dave (Jun 30, 2012)

Now this is a prize example of why I joined this forum ....... Caring people who offer comfort, knowledgeable people who offer GOOD AND PRACTICAL advice and even someone who is willing to give up their personal time to someone in distress and need of some real help.

I truly hope Clover is responding to the new training and Mum is feeling better and more confident about the situation.

As for Dantum. .... Attention seeking t**t :


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

This has been my main problem with my dog, i searched the internet and the most helpful advice seemed to be on youtube!

Lots of methods made no difference at all but there is heaps of advice on there. I found a method that seems to work, but it took alot of searching!

I started my search on you tube with the search "dog training" and then watched a few trainers then looked to see if any of the trainers had "stopping excessive barking" on youtube.

I would never have thought of youtube until someone on here told me about a trainer on there.

Good luck with your pup, chin up


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## Holtie (May 30, 2012)

I have just read all the posts and yes, I have been 'lurking' :blushing:
I was really sad to hear of your situation but *really pleased *that the light at the end of the end of the tunnel has been reached  
I have learnt so much from this post but sorry that I couldn't give any help as everybody else was so helpful!

Hope everything works out for you and Clover!! :thumbup:


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