# i don't know what to do.



## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Hello. for anyone that doesn't know my set up,iv first got elfie,got him his girlfriend tink through a rescue,got rosie from the pet shop near where i work,she's black and the were having trouble selling her and was going to send her off to the bloke who deals with frozen food,i couldn't let that happen so she came home with me,then i got Jim from a bloke who had him in a teeny tiny box,he's a big boy,i couldn't leave him like that so he also came home with me. They live in a shed with an attached run,they are all neuterd. iv always selfishly wanted a group but felt like i accidently ended up with my group through not being able to leave them where they were. Elf and tink are inseparable (or have been until recently) rosie and Jim arnt as close but the group have always got on fine. lately Jim has been fighting to be boss,tink has always been boss,but rather than argue with tink he has started on elf. but while doing this he has got tink and rosie on his side and elf is being very left out. Jim and tink sit and groom eachother,rosie just flits about like she usually does and poor elf just sits in the top of one of the hatches coz that's the only place he's allowed to go. if he comes down,he gets bullied back up there by Jim. Im making sure he's getting food and treats but he looks so depressed. iv just had new hatches put in the shed which i thought would settle them as it was all new stuff and a new lay out but it didn't work. what do i do?? Do i re-bond and go back to basics and start again?? Or do i split the shed in half,which means less space for them,i can just about add another run so each pair would have a bit of shed and an attached run but it obviously limits their space but even if i did that,although elf and tink have always been inseparable but arnt as much at the minute,the other 3 get along fine which makes me think that i wouldn't know who to split with who especially as rosie quite enjoys just being friends with who ever she feels like being friends with,i don't know if she'd like being stuck with Jim all the time. i really am stuck on what to do. xx


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

Personally if it was me I would re-bond the group to see if it is possible to get them back together, if the group really doesn't work then your only option is to split I'm afraid.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

Go back to basics treat it as a new bond and reduce the space


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Thankyou for that,i was hoping you'd suggest rebonding as i would love to keep them together. where do i start? Do i put them all together in the crate straight away or do i add them in the original order i got them or the boys first as they are the problem or just elf and the girls and add Jim later??


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> Thankyou for that,i was hoping you'd suggest rebonding as i would love to keep them together. where do i start? Do i put them all together in the crate straight away or do i add them in the original order i got them or the boys first as they are the problem or just elf and the girls and add Jim later??


Neutral area as you know, put the least dominant buck in first, then add the other buck, then add the least dominant doe.
Add them all as quick as possible so you have both hands if things kick off.
Keep them in that area until there has been at least 12 hours without a scuffle, then very, very slowly increase the space.

If at any stage scuffles start again go back a stage until it is all calm again


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Thankyou. so ill add them all within minutes of another?? if i start it tonight when Im home,if they are ok all night,will i be ok leaving them tomorrow while Im at work or shall i try and pack them up and take them to work with me??


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> Thankyou. so ill add them all within minutes of another?? if i start it tonight when Im home,if they are ok all night,will i be ok leaving them tomorrow while Im at work or shall i try and pack them up and take them to work with me??


Do you have a time where you can dedicate all day and night?
I would worry about leaving them for a whole day without constant supervision and moving them will only cause upset again so is pointless.

And yes add all of them one after the other


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

No coz Im at work,although i could do Saturday night and Sunday Im out doing hair for about 4 hours late afternoon,so i could do it then. i just feel like iv left them like they are all week hoping that they would sort themselves out,am i doing more harm than good by leaving them another couple of days?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> No coz Im at work,although i could do Saturday night and Sunday Im out doing hair for about 4 hours late afternoon,so i could do it then. i just feel like iv left them like they are all week hoping that they would sort themselves out,am i doing more harm than good by leaving them another couple of days?


I would just keep an eye on them for the next couple of days, the problem with leaving them in a bonding pen when you aren't there is if things do kick off they don't have much space to get out of each others way so fights could escalate, whereas now they have room to keep away from each other if needed.


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Yeah i understand about not leaving them alone. il start Saturday night. Shall i just do it all as slowly as possible? Even if they are in the crate til next week sometime even if Im at work?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> Yeah i understand about not leaving them alone. il start Saturday night. Shall i just do it all as slowly as possible? Even if they are in the crate til next week sometime even if Im at work?


Yep as slowly as possible, when I was bonding a group of 5 they were in the bonding pen for nearly 3 weeks before I was happy to increase their space.


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Oh Blimey!! That's a long time!! Does it not matter that they don't have any exercise or anything?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> Oh Blimey!! That's a long time!! Does it not matter that they don't have any exercise or anything?


When bonding no it doesn't matter, yes 3 weeks is a long time but I had 2 very dominant does in that mix so it took a while lol
The way to look at it is once the bond is solid they can have as much space as they need and be happy 

The reason many group bondings fail is the space is increased too soon so territorial behaviour develops :nono:


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Does it not give them the hump being in a crate for a while? Do you think there's hope for them yet?? How dominant were your does? Were they ok in the end?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> Does it not give them the hump being in a crate for a while? Do you think there's hope for them yet?? How dominant were your does? Were they ok in the end?


They will probably get a lil pee'd off but it is for the greater cause so they get over it 

The 2 does are very, very, very dominant it did work for about 2 months but one of the bucks in the group died which caused the group to be unbalanced, it all came to a head one night with a huge fight so I had to take one of the does out (the other 3 are still together and are still very happy with each other) and bonded her to another buck.
If Reed was still in the group I have no doubt they would all still be together but once he was taken the dynamics of the group changed


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

I will persevere!!! So it can be done then if Im patient and do it slowly? Im actually dreading it,i hate it when they fight.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> I will persevere!!! So it can be done then if Im patient and do it slowly? Im actually dreading it,i hate it when they fight.


Yes it can be done 
If it makes it any better it shouldn't be as bad as the first time around because they all know each other, they just need to be reminded that they are indeed a group.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Bernie has given you some good advice Zowie 
Pretty much do what you did when I talked you through it the first time  
You did a good job then, no reason why you shoudnt again 

I've gotta rebond mine when I get home with Gypsy being out of the group 

*Heidi*


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> Yes it can be done
> If it makes it any better it shouldn't be as bad as the first time around because they all know each other, they just need to be reminded that they are indeed a group.


but how will they decide that they are suppose to be a group?? how much scuffling/fur pulling and what not should i allow?



hazyreality said:


> Bernie has given you some good advice Zowie
> Pretty much do what you did when I talked you through it the first time
> You did a good job then, no reason why you shoudnt again
> 
> ...


we can always rely on bernie for good advice!!!  although i know you would have said to try re-bonding them again. i just don't know what's started this,they were fine for quite a while. I read about you taking gypsy out,what a shame. Is she feeling alright now? Were your mum and dad ok with taking over for you while you're away? X


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

I think taking any shelves etc out would be a huge improvement. 

once there all on the same level everyones equal. 

Put a pile of hay in 1 corner as a bed and then just food and water no toys. At this time of year they'll all snuggle together.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

zowie said:


> but how will they decide that they are suppose to be a group?? how much scuffling/fur pulling and what not should i allow?


When you start seeing things like this:










When/if they start chasing and /of fur pulling just distract them by scattering some nommy food or just giving nose rubs can distract them enough that they forget they were chasing, if there is any circling stop that instantly as that tends to lead to locked on fighting. Make sure you scatter feed them so that there is nothing for them to get territorial over.
The best advice I can give you is RELAX, your body language will feed to them making them more tense so less likely to interact. You have bonded the group before so I have no doubt that you can do it again


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

zowie said:


> but how will they decide that they are suppose to be a group?? how much scuffling/fur pulling and what not should i allow?


IMO, unless they draw blood, leave them together. I dont "allow" alot, they get a squirt of water, a shout or a clap of the hands for every aggressive behaviour(thumping feet, biting, boxing, chasing, grunting) If its a full on fur fly and none of the other things are working, I pin the pair who are fighting to the floor for a couple of minutes to let them cool down. 
Rabbits naturally live in groups, so thats how they will decide, you have nature on your side 



zowie said:


> we can always rely on bernie for good advice!!!  although i know you would have said to try re-bonding them again. i just don't know what's started this,they were fine for quite a while. I read about you taking gypsy out,what a shame. Is she feeling alright now? Were your mum and dad ok with taking over for you while you're away? X


Unfortunately such little things can be triggers, how old is Jim, any idea? I wonder if he could be maturing(even neutered) and thats why he wants to be boss. 
Yeh, Gyp isnt too bad now, had a phonecall from mum today and she is being way too soft with her! She says "she still isnt eating her pellets or hay but she has eaten a carrot and a whole treat stick"! So I told her to leave her with just pellets and hay overnight and then see what she does lol. They have been really good looking after her, and everyone else for me 

*Heidi*


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> When you start seeing things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i don't think mine will ever lay as nicely as that!!

So i won't put a litter tray or anything in and just scatter the food? What about toys?

Im rubbish at relaxing!! i really panic if it kicks off!!

Iv been sitting out with them for the past couple of nights and elf and Jim rub noses with their heads in the treat tub and sat and shared a bit of broccoli,so surely they can't hate eachother too much?!



hazyreality said:


> IMO, unless they draw blood, leave them together. I dont "allow" alot, they get a squirt of water, a shout or a clap of the hands for every aggressive behaviour(thumping feet, biting, boxing, chasing, grunting) If its a full on fur fly and none of the other things are working, I pin the pair who are fighting to the floor for a couple of minutes to let them cool down.
> Rabbits naturally live in groups, so thats how they will decide, you have nature on your side
> 
> Unfortunately such little things can be triggers, how old is Jim, any idea? I wonder if he could be maturing(even neutered) and thats why he wants to be boss.
> ...


if the bloke i took Jim off if is right,he's now about a year and a half. I think he could be maturing. everything has gone out the window with him!!he's always been the best with his litter tray and all of a sudden he now only goes in a spot out in the run!!

Glad gypsy is better. Bless your mum!!! I suppose she'd rather see her eat than not. They are good to you!!! I don't think mine would look after the rabbits like that for me!!! X


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2012)

zowie said:


> i don't think mine will ever lay as nicely as that!!
> 
> So i won't put a litter tray or anything in and just scatter the food? What about toys?
> 
> ...


No litter tray, no toys, and use a bowel of water to start with rather than a bottle because the spout can cause some nasty eye injuries if it gets knocked in a scuffle.
You can add a litter tray after a few hours but personally I leave them with nothing until I am convinced they are bonded


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> No litter tray, no toys, and use a bowel of water to start with rather than a bottle because the spout can cause some nasty eye injuries if it gets knocked in a scuffle.
> You can add a litter tray after a few hours but personally I leave them with nothing until I am convinced they are bonded


Does it matter if they don't know how to use a bowl? Iv got the crate all ready for when i get in from work.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2012)

zowie said:


> Does it matter if they don't know how to use a bowl? Iv got the crate all ready for when i get in from work.


They will know how to use a bowl, but once they have settled after the first meet you should be able to put a bottle in, just not to start with just in case.

Sending bonding vibes your way


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> They will know how to use a bowl, but once they have settled after the first meet you should be able to put a bottle in, just not to start with just in case.
> 
> Sending bonding vibes your way


Okie dokie.

Thanks!!! Il let you know how it goes!! No doubt il be on here if i end up in a pickle later!!


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

I didn't put them together last night as planned,i was tired and irritable from work and didn't feel like it was right for them,so i had a good sleep and got up early this morning and put them in the crate,gave them some veg which they all tucked into and then they just all laid snuggled up with each other all day. so much so that if you had seen them,you would have thought that id lied about the boys not getting on in the shed!!! They were like that all day so when i had to pop out late this afternoon,i asked my brother to keep an eye on them for me and said they had been fine all day so he shouldn't have to worry too much,but when i got back,he'd had an awful time with them,Jim had been chasing rosie quite alot. rosie is so quiet and will keep herself to herself and would never cause any trouble,its like he just wants someone to pick on. Im sitting with them now and just gave them some treats which they all tucked into and now they are just laying next to each other again. i thought it was going so well. I don't know if Im going to be up all night now with Jim being a bully. i feel sad for rosie coz she's sitting there as if to say she doesn't know what she did wrong,poor thing. Can they just act funny coz they knew i wasn't around or is this normal??


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2012)

It's all normal so far hun.
What did your brother do when things kicked off?


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> It's all normal so far hun.
> What did your brother do when things kicked off?


He clapped his hands which he said distracted Jim a bit but he still sort of carried on so he pushed Jim away and that totally stopped him and he stroked rosie to make sure she was ok,he said it was like she goes into a little bit of shock and kept very still but she was ok. (my brother is only 14 and really allergic to them,bless him but he's more rabbit savvy than anyone else in my house!!) but now Im home,jim's laying there like butter wouldn't melt. i just don't know why he'd pick on rosie coz she's totally harmless and would never fight to be boss so its not like she's competition for him.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2012)

zowie said:


> He clapped his hands which he said distracted Jim a bit but he still sort of carried on so he pushed Jim away and that totally stopped him and he stroked rosie to make sure she was ok,he said it was like she goes into a little bit of shock and kept very still but she was ok. (my brother is only 14 and really allergic to them,bless him but he's more rabbit savvy than anyone else in my house!!) but now Im home,jim's laying there like butter wouldn't melt. i just don't know why he'd pick on rosie coz she's totally harmless and would never fight to be boss so its not like she's competition for him.


If Jim goes off on one again pin him to the floor (just kneel down with your knees in a V shape so he can't run backwards) for a couple of seconds. That will put him back in his place as it is what a dominant rabbit would do to him.

It might have kicked off because your brother was a bit nervous tbh, so they will most probably be fine now lol


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> If Jim goes off on one again pin him to the floor (just kneel down with your knees in a V shape so he can't run backwards) for a couple of seconds. That will put him back in his place as it is what a dominant rabbit would do to him.
> 
> It might have kicked off because your brother was a bit nervous tbh, so they will most probably be fine now lol


Last night wasn't too bad. Jim had a few attempts and trying to hump the others,it didn't result in any scuffles and a squirt of water stopped him. they've just eaten their breakfast together and are all laid down with their legs stretched out now. is it worth introducing anything like litter tray or toys today or just leave them as they are. Im not at work today so Im going to clean the shed so i can let it air for a couple of days before i start re-introducing them to it.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2012)

zowie said:


> Last night wasn't too bad. Jim had a few attempts and trying to hump the others,it didn't result in any scuffles and a squirt of water stopped him. they've just eaten their breakfast together and are all laid down with their legs stretched out now. is it worth introducing anything like litter tray or toys today or just leave them as they are. Im not at work today so Im going to clean the shed so i can let it air for a couple of days before i start re-introducing them to it.


I would leave them as they are until they have had at least 12 hours without any humping or scuffles just to be safe


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Sounds like it is going OK 
Time difference means I cant offer much in the way of advice cos its at the wrong time, but you are getting plenty of good advice from Bernie 

*Heidi*


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> I would leave them as they are until they have had at least 12 hours without any humping or scuffles just to be safe


They have been ok so far today. I went to the vets with my lizard this afternoon and my mum was listening out for them and she said there wasnt any chasing or thumping and when i came back,they were all laying together just like how id left them  Il see how they are in the night. They look ever so bored though!! They love the bowl of water,that went down a treat with all of them,especially Jim,he's quite big and only likes to drink out of the giant bottles as they have a bigger spout but he was ever so impressed with the bowl. Is it normal to have a couple of bowls of water or do people just have bottles??



hazyreality said:


> Sounds like it is going OK
> Time difference means I cant offer much in the way of advice cos its at the wrong time, but you are getting plenty of good advice from Bernie
> 
> *Heidi*


Touch wood,it seems to be going ok. 

I'm used to knowing that you are at the end of the phone!! Although when something happens,i do ask myself 'i wonder what Heidi would tell me to do'!!! Im just not as quick thinking as you. Bernie's been brilliant (Thank you Bernie  ) I was getting worried that id have to split them which i really really dont want to do. Are you having a nice time over there? X


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

zowie said:


> They have been ok so far today. I went to the vets with my lizard this afternoon and my mum was listening out for them and she said there wasnt any chasing or thumping and when i came back,they were all laying together just like how id left them  Il see how they are in the night. They look ever so bored though!! They love the bowl of water,that went down a treat with all of them,especially Jim,he's quite big and only likes to drink out of the giant bottles as they have a bigger spout but he was ever so impressed with the bowl. Is it normal to have a couple of bowls of water or do people just have bottles??
> 
> Touch wood,it seems to be going ok.
> 
> I'm used to knowing that you are at the end of the phone!! Although when something happens,i do ask myself 'i wonder what Heidi would tell me to do'!!! Im just not as quick thinking as you. Bernie's been brilliant (Thank you Bernie  ) I was getting worried that id have to split them which i really really dont want to do. Are you having a nice time over there? X


My lot have 1 of the giant bottles and 2 bowls, they have the bowls that automatically refill, there is about 1.4ltrs in the cone bit. 
Glad it seems to be going ok 

Lol, thankyou, I've just learnt over the years of having them, I've had most situations. I have Bernie's number as a back up 

Yeh its great so far, staying a few days with my brother(maybe a week) before going back to my sisters  Its really really mild and while there is alot of snow on the ground, none of it is snowman or snowball making snow, its too hard!

*Heidi*


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

hazyreality said:


> My lot have 1 of the giant bottles and 2 bowls, they have the bowls that automatically refill, there is about 1.4ltrs in the cone bit.
> Glad it seems to be going ok
> 
> Lol, thankyou, I've just learnt over the years of having them, I've had most situations. I have Bernie's number as a back up
> ...


I didnt know there was such thing as automatic refill bowls!! Where do you get those from??

I suppose knowledge just comes with experience!! Im hoping to be knowledgeable one day!!!

Glad you're having a good time. Oh no,that's a bit of a tease!!! We've had a good bit of snow,i turn into a big kid and cant help but throw it!! Our snowman is slowly melting away! X


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

zowie said:


> I didnt know there was such thing as automatic refill bowls!! Where do you get those from??
> 
> I suppose knowledge just comes with experience!! Im hoping to be knowledgeable one day!!!
> 
> Glad you're having a good time. Oh no,that's a bit of a tease!!! We've had a good bit of snow,i turn into a big kid and cant help but throw it!! Our snowman is slowly melting away! X


Got them from zooplus, will look for a link, the 99p store had some lmao! Not anywhere near as good but they are OK as a spare.
Here ya go... http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_bowls_feeders/cat_fountains/14454
The small ones IMO are no good for the buns, the bowl bit just isnt big enough for the medium/bigger buns but I have them for if the guineas need them.
My review is at the top 

*Heidi*


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

hazyreality said:


> Got them from zooplus, will look for a link, the 99p store had some lmao! Not anywhere near as good but they are OK as a spare.
> Here ya go... Great Deals on Pet Food & Water Dispensers at Zooplus: Trixie Water or Food Dispenser
> The small ones IMO are no good for the buns, the bowl bit just isnt big enough for the medium/bigger buns but I have them for if the guineas need them.
> My review is at the top
> ...


I liked your review!!!
so how doesn't the water just gush out??? I imagine it to be like an upside down bottle with no lid on!! The rabbits don't kick them over or anything then?? X


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2012)

zowie said:


> They have been ok so far today. I went to the vets with my lizard this afternoon and my mum was listening out for them and she said there wasnt any chasing or thumping and when i came back,they were all laying together just like how id left them  Il see how they are in the night. They look ever so bored though!! They love the bowl of water,that went down a treat with all of them,especially Jim,he's quite big and only likes to drink out of the giant bottles as they have a bigger spout but he was ever so impressed with the bowl. Is it normal to have a couple of bowls of water or do people just have bottles??
> 
> Touch wood,it seems to be going ok.
> 
> I'm used to knowing that you are at the end of the phone!! Although when something happens,i do ask myself 'i wonder what Heidi would tell me to do'!!! Im just not as quick thinking as you. *Bernie's been brilliant (Thank you Bernie  )* I was getting worried that id have to split them which i really really dont want to do. Are you having a nice time over there? X


I'm glad I have been able to help 
Some mine have bottles, because Rhythm likes to pick bowls up with his teeth and spill the water everywhere :nono: and Heather likes to pretty much submerge her whole face in the bowl, and because her fur is so thick it was staying wet which led to her skin getting sore. Bluey and his girls and Courage have bowls which they prefer


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

zowie said:


> I liked your review!!!
> so how doesn't the water just gush out??? I imagine it to be like an upside down bottle with no lid on!! The rabbits don't kick them over or anything then?? X


Lol, its all to do with the pressure. There is 2 different ways of putting the lid on and the way you use with water only has about half cm where the water pours into the bowl bit, if its for food its 2 or 3cm. I cracked the dome bit of one of mine, still tried to use it but because the pressure couldnt build it all just poured out, still ok for food.
I've had them for over a year and they have been moved when they are getting empty(but not tipped) about half a dozen times, and only tipped(about half full) once and Rascal loves to "steal" bowls, pull them towards him and move them around. They are pretty heavy when they are full.
I gave the bunnies the small ones and they got thrown all over the place!

*Heidi*


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Im going to look into the bottles. do you find that they get hay and stuff in them and you end up cleaning them out all the time??

They were ok all day yesterday and all night until this morning quarter to 7 this morning when Jim just kept trying to hump rosie. he's been attempting it a few times throughout the day and does stop when distracted but he just doesn't seem to get it that he can't do it!!! he's just ruining it because the others are behaving so well. 

Also,having them in the crate,i thought that between them they would choose a poo corner,but oh no,not my rabbits,they've used the whole thing as a litter tray!!! Because its everywhere,its quite difficult to keep clean with out cleaning the whole thing out. they are even now hanging their bums over the water bowl and weeing in their water!!! Will these dirty habits carry on once they are back in the shed? What can i do to stop them??


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