# Colour question... again.



## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

I know these questions are asked all the time. But can a blue self mates to a cream self produce a blue cream tabby kitten?


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

A blue to a cream will produce cream boys and blue-cream or blue tortie girls no tabbies


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes regardless of if its a blue boy or a blue girl


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

That is what I suspected. A friend of mine has a blue bsh and has mated with a cream. She has 4 kittens, two blues, one blue cream and then one which is definetly a tabby.

Is it possible the stud is a tabby cream and not a self like she thinks? Or does it not work like that?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

CattingYou said:


> That is what I suspected. A friend of mine has a blue bsh and has mated with a cream. She has 4 kittens, two blues, one blue cream and then one which is definetly a tabby.
> 
> *Is it possible the stud is a tabby cream and not a self like she thinks?* Or does it not work like that?


I think this may depend on the registering body. If the cream stud has a tabby parent the GCCF will not register it on the Active Register as a self unless it has a DNA test proving it is non-agouti. The DNA test is required for all red or cream imported cats before they can be registered Active..

I do not know about TICA but they seem far more inclined to register cats by phenotype rather than genotype so a DNA test may not be required.

So it should not be possible in GCCF but may be possible elsewhere. It is definitely impossible if the cream stud does not have a tabby parent.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

This is definetly a tabby wouldn't you say?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

CattingYou said:


> This is definetly a tabby wouldn't you say?


I would prefer to see its belly. Is it a lilac? If so, the M on its face and the lines round its neck may just be ghost markings.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

It's blue I think.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

Another one?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

CattingYou said:


> It's blue I think.


Yes that's a tabby! Which body registered the stud?


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

I don't know, but I will find out. I think my friend used the stud believing it was a cream self but now she is doubting it :s

Unless her cat got out and got pregnant by another cat too? I will have to ask her if that is a possibility!


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

And is it a blue tabby or a blue cream tabby? She doesn't know!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

CattingYou said:


> And is it a blue tabby or a blue cream tabby? She doesn't know!


If it is a girl it must be blue cream unless, as you suggest there are two sires. (All girls from a red series stud will be torties at least. They could be red if the dam is red or tortie but the latter does not apply in this case.)


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

CattingYou said:


> It's blue I think.


Looking at this pic again is there a hint of tortie on the nose?


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

She had told me it's a girl (I haven't seen it in the flesh)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tabby may well show on the cream regardless of if its a self cat. The way to be sure is to take a check swab and get it tested.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

Well the stud cat most definitely has tabby markings. But he is registered as a cream self? I'm guessing he could only be a cream self from his own parents or somewhere along the line a cat has been registered wrongly? 

I've told my friend that a tabby is impossible from mating her blue to a cream self, she thinks I am making it up! 

I don't know how the agouti gene works, is it not like colourpoint and can be carried?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I saw a BSH kitten advertised for sale last week as blue (classic) tabby. It was actually a blue self with very heavy classic tabby ghost markings. But your friend's kitten is definitely agouti (tabby). The "white" chin and pale background colour on the face are a giveaway and I would bet that her tummy is pale/spotted.

In basic terms, 'tabby' cannot be carried; one of the parents has to be a tabby cat to produce tabby kittens hence the sire has to be tabby.

It can be almost impossible to tell, just visually, and without knowing for certain the genetic make-up of the parents, whether a "red" - be it red or its dilute, cream - is a self (non tabby) or an actual tabby. Through an initiative of a couple of the BSH clubs last year lots of breeders' cats believed to be and registered as red or cream tabbies or red/cream selfs were DNA tested by Langford. A high proportion of them proved to be incorrectly registered whichever way around it was.

If the sire of this kitten has a parent registered as a tabby then it would be a fairly simple process to have him tested (for certainty) and re-registered as a cream tabby. If the identification mistake occurred further back in the pedigree (i.e. he has parents who themselves are registered as selfs) then it can become a bit more complex.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

CattingYou said:


> <snip>
> I don't know how the agouti gene works, is it not like colourpoint and can be carried?


Agouti (tabby) is the complete opposite of colourpoint! CP can be carried, agouti cannot. Non-agouti can - a self cat has two copies of the non-agouti version of the gene. Two non-agouti (self) cats will never, ever produce an agouti (tabby) kitten.

Since the stud owner has such a poor grasp of very basic genetics you might only be able to get them to face up to his mis-registration by DNA testing your kitten and sending them a copy of the results.

I'm somewhat concerned about their lack of knowledge.

Found this interesting - wouldn't be at all surprised if the same is true in other breeds.



gskinner123 said:


> <snip>
> Through an initiative of a couple of the BSH clubs last year lots of breeders' cats believed to be and registered as red or cream tabbies or red/cream selfs were DNA tested by Langford. A high proportion of them proved to be incorrectly registered whichever way around it was.
> <snip>


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> its dilute, cream - is a self (non tabby) Through an initiative of a couple of the BSH clubs last year lots of breeders' cats believed to be and registered as red or cream tabbies or red/cream selfs were DNA tested by Langford. A high proportion of them proved to be incorrectly registered whichever way around it was.
> 
> If the sire of this kitten has a parent registered as a tabby then it would be a fairly simple process to have him tested (for certainty) and re-registered as a cream tabby. If the identification mistake occurred further back in the pedigree (i.e. he has parents who themselves are registered as selfs) then it can become a bit more complex.


This is very interesting. Were any of the mis-registered cats on the Active Register? Before the advent of DNA testing, Siamese and Orientals were required to 'prove' by test mating that a red series cat was a self if it had a tabby parent. The number of non-tabby kittens supposed to 'prove' this was only 10, not enough to be positive but 'good enough.' I often wondered how many were registered as self when actually tabby.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> This is very interesting. Were any of the mis-registered cats on the Active Register? Before the advent of DNA testing, Siamese and Orientals were required to 'prove' by test mating that a red series cat was a self if it had a tabby parent. The number of non-tabby kittens supposed to 'prove' this was only 10, not enough to be positive but 'good enough.' I often wondered how many were registered as self when actually tabby.


There is never enough to be positive, but can imagine it was hard to see if the red-series offspring were tabby or not... Obviously not so hard with a tortie. Where it's easy to tell, 10 kittens mean it's just over 99.9% sure the recessive trait being tested for isn't carried - longhair for example.

And I suspect I can be sure some of the mis-registered cats were on the active register...


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> There is never enough to be positive, but can imagine it was hard to see if the red-series offspring were tabby or not... Obviously not so hard with a tortie. Where it's easy to tell, 10 kittens mean it's just over 99.9% sure the recessive trait being tested for isn't carried - longhair for example.
> 
> And I suspect I can be sure some of the mis-registered cats were on the active register...


I think I did not make myself clear. The red series cat had to be mated to a non-red, non-tabby cat. I am afraid sometimes it can be hard to tell with a tortie.

(As far as the longhair gene was concerned, if a longhair cat was not available for test mating 18 cats to a carrier was acceptable. That is even more prone to error.)


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Most of them were active registered cats. My assumption is that the majority would have been re-registered but I must admit, red BSH, whether tabby or self, is not a colour I have any personal interest in so I wasn't involved in what followed after the testing. There is (or was, he may have been neutered) a very illustrious Imperial Grand Champion red spotted BSH, owner bred, who sired lots of kittens thanks to his title and being at public stud. To non-agouti girls, in his whole career he never sired a single non-red kitten that was agouti (there would have been obviously and most were registered agouti). He was in fact a red self. I don't think he was ever re-registered.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Most of them were active registered cats. My assumption is that the majority would have been re-registered but I must admit, red BSH, whether tabby or self, is not a colour I have any personal interest in so I wasn't involved in what followed after the testing. There is (or was, he may have been neutered) a very illustrious Imperial Grand Champion red spotted BSH, owner bred, who sired lots of kittens thanks to his title and being at public stud. To non-agouti girls, in his whole career he never sired a single non-red kitten that was agouti (there would have been obviously and most were registered agouti). He was in fact a red self. I don't think he was ever re-registered.


Did the required testing for British only come in with DNA tests? No test mating required before?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I think I did not make myself clear. The red series cat had to be mated to a non-red, non-tabby cat. I am afraid sometimes it can be hard to tell with a tortie.
> 
> (As far as the longhair gene was concerned, if a longhair cat was not available for test mating 18 cats to a carrier was acceptable. That is even more prone to error.)


If the red is a male then you will get non-red males and tortie females - 'sometimes it can be hard to tell with a tortie'. Easier of course with a tortie & white.

If the red is a female then you will get red males and tortie females... Surely one is producing more of what one isn't sure of to prove a point?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Only two cats photographed unfortunately. I cannot remember whether the top one proved to be agouti or not but the red classic below proved to be a self.

https://britishshorthairbac.wordpress.com/projects/


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> If the red is a male then you will get non-red males and tortie females - 'sometimes it can be hard to tell with a tortie'. Easier of course with a tortie & white.
> 
> If the red is a female then you will get red males and tortie females... Surely one is producing more of what one isn't sure of to prove a point?


The oriental registration policy stated 'All red, cream or apricot orientals with one or more tabby point, oriental tabby or oriental shaded parent(s) must be registered as red, cream or apricot oriental tabbies or shadeds until proved otherwise. They may not be registered as oriental selfs or smokes until test matings have proved them to be free of the agouti gene.' The rule for imported cats was no tabby within 5 generations not just a parent.

I never had to find out what happened to red girls with a tabby parent. Perhaps they were just registered as tabbies.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

QOTN said:


> Did the required testing for British only come in with DNA tests? No test mating required before?


I have a dreadful memory! On top of which despite having bred many non-silver tabbies, red isn't one of them but I am almost certain that test mating for 'x' number of kittens was in place. Obviously now in BSH we have the registration rules you've mentioned for when registering red/cream kittens. I don't know about other breeds but it's so important to get it right in BSH as tabby & whites are not a recognised variety. There have been more than a few incorrectly registered cream "selfs" put into bi-colour breeding programmes.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

So the owner of the stud cat is adamant he is a self. How can I honestly get it through to her that he probably isn't, especially if he is the site to that tabby kitten? 

Here is a photo of him, he looks tabby but then obviously a lot of cream selfs do.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

CattingYou said:


> So the owner of the stud cat is adamant he is a self. How can I honestly get it through to her that he probably isn't, especially if he is the site to that tabby kitten?
> 
> Here is a photo of him, he looks tabby but then obviously a lot of cream selfs do.


Dna test him, show her the results


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If the mother is definitely a self, you have two options. Test the kitten or offer to pay for the stud owner to test the stud (if she is adamant, I guess she would be reluctant without the offer to pay for the test). It's very simple and inexpensive - a cotton bud, twiddled for several seconds on the inside of the cat's cheek and send it to Langford, fill in the forms on their site, pay online, and you generally have the result back within 2-3 days.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

A DNA test will definitely help with identifying the stud's breed but it may not help with registering the kitten. If the stud is GCCF registered it probably will not have a *registered tabby* parent, in which case it simply moves the problem one generation further away. TICA used to register according to phenotype even if it was a genetic impossibility but I am not sure if this is still the case.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

A DNA test of the kitten might help push the sire's owner to acknowledging what he actually is. Since mum is a blue self there should be no problem confirming that visually.

However is the kitten going to be used as a stud? Highly unlikely but correct registration is vital if he is. Shown? He may well be accepted as a cream self. Pet only? Does it matter much?

Your friend might prefer to be pragmatic about this kitten and avoid using that stud in the future. Or, she might test the kitten to prove the point and then talk to the GCCF. She should have the stud's pedigree so can see if he has a tabby parent, except if he does he should have been registered as a tabby unless proved otherwise...

http://old.gccfcats.org/pdf/CouncilMeetings/Oct12/BritishShorthairRegpol.pdf


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> A DNA test of the kitten might help push the sire's owner to acknowledging what he actually is. Since mum is a blue self there should be no problem confirming that visually.
> 
> However is the kitten going to be used as a stud? Highly unlikely but correct registration is vital if he is. Shown? He may well be accepted as a cream self. Pet only? Does it matter much?
> 
> ...


The kitten in question is a blue tortie tabby. She could be registered as a tortie if she is going as a pet. She would certainly not be the first kitten to be wrongly registered either by mistake or intention but that does not help others who may be using the cream stud thinking he is a self.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I agree it doesn't help other people, but I don't know what can be done to make the stud owner see sense other than test the kitten, forward the email with the results on and try to register the kitten correctly with the GCCF.

Not sure where I got the idea she was a cream boy from!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

[QUOTE="OrientalSlave, post: 1064290588, member: 1314554

Not sure where I got the idea she was a cream boy from![/QUOTE]

Not when Mum is a blue self but we all have these moments from time to time!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Suspect I got confused with the stud...


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

The owner of the stud has actually turned very abusive, there is obviously something very dodgy going on. She refuses to accept that he isn't the father of the kitten yet also refuses to accept that he is very obviously a tabby! 

The only reason my friend is so bothered is because whilst she was selling the kitten she had someone question whether her kittens were pedigrees and not fathered by a random Tom cat. Which you can't blame people for asking if tabby kittens are impossible from a blue self and cream self mating. It is obviously making her look unprofessional and her name is being tainted


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I think she should take this up with the GCCF, and I still think she needs to DNA test the kitten even though we know what the result will be.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

My Cookie looks like a red tabby but is in fact a red self.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Only two cats photographed unfortunately. I cannot remember whether the top one proved to be agouti or not but the red classic below proved to be a self.
> 
> https://britishshorthairbac.wordpress.com/projects/


That's intersting the breeder I got Cookie from asked me for her test results as they were doing research into the subject. Can't work out if the self photo is Cookie


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Cookieandme said:


> My Cookie looks like a red tabby but is in fact a red self.
> 
> View attachment 243435


My Gord! That cat is HUGE!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

As usual, I have read this thread to try to learn a bit about genetics, and as usual have got myself all scienced-out!

However, thank you for the kitten pictures - I can appreciate those. LOL.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

lostbear said:


> As usual, I have read this thread to try to learn a bit about genetics, and as usual have got myself all scienced-out!.


Please do not despair, Lostbear. The trouble with these sorts of threads is that the question is usually very specific so the only way to answer it is to be specific in reply. So often the question involves the red gene which is not an ideal place to start if you wish to learn about the colour genetics of cats.

Colour genetics are simple once you know the general principles. As is the case with any body of knowledge it is better to begin at the beginning rather than try to plunge into the middle and expect to understand. I am no scientist and when I read involved papers about DNA research, my mind goes blank and I tend to jump to the results or discussion sections in order to get the gist of the findings. However I do understand the basic principles sufficiently to be able to work out colours, patterns etc.

I think it would be easier for you if you ask questions you would like answered rather than just read the answers to others' questions.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

lostbear said:


> My Gord! That cat is HUGE!


How rude . She is big boned


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

I have since found out that he has a choc tabby colourpoint sire! So this is obviously where it comes from, he is very obviously a tabby cat (although I knew that anyway). 

And I have also found out he is not even registered with the GCCF, his breeder produced completely false documents! Unlucky for her I spoke to her studs breeder who confirmed he was sold without papers due to the stud owners that she used refused to give her a mating certificate.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I know you cant answrr this, but why did the stud accept the mother and then refuse to give the certificate of mating? If it was my girl is be ringing the gccf...


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

You are right, I can't answer that. I've obviously uncovered something I shouldn't have. 

I agree if it was my girl (well it wouldn't have happened in the first place) but I'd be straight on the phone!


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