# Crufts 2013 Judges - opinions?



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

What are you thinking about the judges for Crufts 2013?

I've checked the GSD judge and it's terrible. He's an alsatianist... Lots of lovely "straight backed" dogs strung up under the neck! I.e overgrown corgis with incorrect angles in the front, weak, overlong dippy backs, deep chests, stubby legs...


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Not in to GSd's myself but if by the pictures thats what he likes... I DONT!


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

thats where it gets me as its all on personal opinion, so you may think something looks good, where as i dont, very confusing


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I didn't actually mean to go on such a rant lol. I was wishing this thread to be a discussion thread on judge's preferences and how exhibitors' dogs will fare  (all breeds)


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Im quite appalled by your initial post. Its this kind of post which creates an unsporting atmosphere surrounding dog showing and alienates potential new people to get into showing for fear of running into rude and snarky posts like this! If you dont like the information youve found from googling the judge, you could say I dont think its the judge for me and show some respect. This is so common, especially in people who are new to a breed or who have been in a breed around/sub 5 years, who have a difference of opinion on type and want to put out like they know more by fault picking other peoples dogs. I think its especially rude when someone cant post to defend themselves as its done behind someones back. 

The fundamental idea of dog showing is that you are getting people's opinion, if you dont value someone's opinion dont enter under them. Simple! 

My response to these kinds of posts online and on facebook would normally be; so what have you done for the breed? How long have you been in the breed? How many champions have you bred? How many sch titles have you earnt? Hopefully significantly more than the judge and the people who chose the saw the judge fit to judge crufts this year.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Well I'm new to showing flatcoats and Labradors, and it works both ways, I'm fed up of being told I'm unsupportive and don't get involved enough, don't know enough etc, etc. I still go and show my dogs when I can, Rhuna and Zasa are booked into four possibly five shows before the end of Jan next year. And that's even though I know ticket swapping does go on, and one show where that happened I was told before hand not to expect to be placed, and sure enough, exactly the dogs that were expected to win, did. 

So why do I do it? Because I think *some* of those involved in showing can't see beyond the end of their nose and are in it to win regardless of the quality of their dogs. Some of those are old school and are respected because of the length of time they have been in a breed, not because they produce good quality, healthy examples of a breed necessarily. And I firmly believe if left to get on with it without an injection of new blood particularly new blood which questions why someone breeds or likes that aspect of a breed, then the same mistakes that allow people to breed overangulated, overwrinkled, too short, too fat etc, etc dogs will be perpetuated, and give JH room for PDE III, PDE IV, PDE V etc, etc, etc. 

Do I ever expect to get placed in the show ring? No, far too opinionated for my own good, mind you, not many people know what I look like, so you never know  

The flatcoat judge has a dual purpose kennels purportedly, haven't a foggiest about the kennel name, but will most likely come up for discussion at some point with friends who have been in the breed for many years and whose opinions I respect.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well I'm new to showing flatcoats and Labradors, and it works both ways, I'm fed up of being told I'm unsupportive and don't get involved enough, don't know enough etc, etc. I still go and show my dogs when I can, Rhuna and Zasa are booked into four possibly five shows before the end of Jan next year. And that's even though I know ticket swapping does go on, and one show where that happened I was told before hand not to expect to be placed, and sure enough, exactly the dogs that were expected to win, did.
> 
> So why do I do it? Because I think *some* of those involved in showing can't see beyond the end of their nose and are in it to win regardless of the quality of their dogs. Some of those are old school and are respected because of the length of time they have been in a breed, not because they produce good quality, healthy examples of a breed necessarily. And I firmly believe if left to get on with it without an injection of new blood particularly new blood which questions why someone breeds or likes that aspect of a breed, then the same mistakes that allow people to breed overangulated, overwrinkled, too short, too fat etc, etc dogs will be perpetuated, and give JH room for PDE III, PDE IV, PDE V etc, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with being new and nothing wrong with being opinionated  but, in my opinion, one can be opinionated wihout being downright rude about someone and their dogs. Moreover, someone they've never met. My point that I'm really getting at is, if you don't agree with all the bitchyness and talkig behind people's back, don't join in with bitchyness and talking behind people's back!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Having chatted with a few of the judges, not necessarily in my breed, I think they kind of expect to be spattered with virtual tomato's and rotten eggs from some quarters. As the old saying goes, you can't please all off the people all of the time, and everyone has different ideas about what they like within their breed, it's when you get tunnel vision about it and can't see if you've gone off the rails or gone too far with an aspect of your breed, and that intensifies at shows. When you're sat listening to some of the comments people make it can be quite amusing. 

I've had people bitching about me and my dogs from the show fraternity, they've never met me or my dogs, but feel it's alright to make sweeping generalisations about us. With the internet it's easy for people to feel they can pass comment, as long as they're not being personal, what does it matter if they *think* something of the sort of dogs a judge awards places to?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

You don't think saying 'This years judge is terrible' then rolling off a bunch of faults with his dogs and choosing unflattering photos to accompany this is being personal? I have to disagree! 

I don't think that the fact judges expect to get bad mouthed makes it right to do so, and I think its bitchiness like this which is exactly what is making the entries get lower and lower and stopping new people getting into the sport. The amount of people I talk to who say they'd like to get into showing but couldnt deal with all the drama is astounding.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dober said:


> You don't think saying 'This years judge is terrible' then rolling off a bunch of faults with his dogs and choosing unflattering photos to accompany this is being personal? I have to disagree!
> 
> I don't think that the fact judges expect to get bad mouthed makes it right to do so, and I think its bitchiness like this which is exactly what is making the entries get lower and lower and stopping new people getting into the sport. The amount of people I talk to who say they'd like to get into showing but couldnt deal with all the drama is astounding.


No, I actually agree, but didn't feel your comment was fair either about it being common for newcomers to showing being rude about other peoples' dogs. I very much don't like some peoples' versions of Labradors or flatcoats, but I don't make comments about them or their dogs either, I simply state my preference. So maybe I should actually be pleased by your generalisation as perhaps I'm uncommon, there's always a first time 

Have been reliably informed that certain types will do well in the flatcoat ring.

Edited to add I've also hopefully convinced two of the puppy owners to have a dabble at showing, and am helping Nicki with Nala at her first show, so I'm not very good at putting even more new people off showing. Must work harder, lol.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, I actually agree, but didn't feel your comment was fair either about it being common for newcomers to showing being rude about other peoples' dogs. I very much don't like some peoples' versions of Labradors or flatcoats, but I don't make comments about them or their dogs either, I simply state my preference. So maybe I should actually be pleased by your generalisation as perhaps I'm uncommon, there's always a first time
> 
> Have been reliably informed that certain types will do well in the flatcoat ring.


I didn't mean it to come across that way, I'm on my phone and don't explain myself so well! What I meant was that its quite frequent for someone to get involved with showing and hear people bad mouthing each others dogs and think that's just how it goes, then as they become more knowledgeable about the showing system and about confirmation they begin to be able to see faults and vocalise them more either in order to stamp their authority and try to shake the 'newbie' status or they get bogged down by faults and can't see the complete picture and the good points. A very wise person in my breed used to say 'I wish I knew as much as I did in 1992, I was an expert then!'. I think posting poor pictures of other peoples dogs without permission and bad mouthing them is in general a character flaw, rather than to do with being new. I think more new people need to join in order to better the sport.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Was chatting to someone who field trials and is also a judge the other evening, he came round to pick up a few grouse we had going spare. I asked him whether the same thing goes on with field trialling, as at *some* shows, ie ticket swapping. Sadly it very much does, judges have preferences for lines and for people, and even reward handlers and their dogs in the expectation that they too will be rewarded, or as a returned favour. I have a friend who judges and who wouldn't place a dog that can't stand calmly without having 1/2 a lb of cheese shoved under it's nose every three seconds, why? Because as a gundog breed they should be capable of standing still and remaining calm for their handler, and I applaud them because gundog breeds are also very much about the ability, which is often not considered when judging shows. 

Maybe some new comers aren't aware of all the ins and outs, but like any sport or hobby, there are all sorts of people involved, and a lot of those are very vocal about what they know and what they like to see. I learnt very early on that I know very little about my dogs, I know a little bit more now, but I'll never know everything about them, that's for sure


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

First pic isn't the judge's breeding. It's lornaville.
There are many breeders of German type dogs whose dogs I don't like but wouldnt post about - but then they hip and elbow score, haemophilia test etc...
Didn't see anything about hip scores on the judge's website although I'm on my phone so can't check my hip score doc.

Training in SchH now which is more than I can say for the judge! I'm still trying to find out if any English types have managed a SchH qualification.

I'm not showing anyway - my lad is a long coat and my bitch will be too young.

Maybe I'll be less rude about the English types when they all start hip and elbow scoring, haemophilia testing, and paying closer attention to temperament.


Anyway - what are the different show types in flatties then?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

showing dogs is all about experience , far too many people coming into my breed and i'm guessing others think they know it all after a year, next thing they are on a committee. Gone are the days when i started showing in 1978 ,when you sat back and listened to the experienced breeder, you called them Mr or Mrs if you spoke to them. not so now. Experience tells you what judges to enter and who not to go under.Its all about serving an apprenticeship.Too many want to win too soon imo. Crufts i hate the show so unless i had a real good chance i wouldn't bother but i certainly wouldn't slag a judge off on the internet just because they liked a particular type. bring back the old days of showing i say!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Anyway - what are the different show types in flatties then?


They are flashier and less functional, and some of the ones from europe are shaved within an inch of their life and taught to stand like a setter. I prefer my hairy girl, I trim the ears and feet so the judge can see them, and the end of their tail so the judge can see how long it is and the feathering doesn't make it look too long.

It's interesting if you stand next to a spectating show judge and listen to what they're saying about the dogs. They pick up on all sorts that gets put through, there was a flatcoat that was knuckling over on the front paws that was put through to the BOB ring this year.


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