# Spaying my St Bernard



## dianajc891 (Oct 4, 2012)

My St Bernard, Ruby, is now 11 months and has just finished her first season. My question is, when should I get her spayed? I feel that spaying her before her next season may be too soon as she would only be 14 months old and still undergoing development.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated!
Diana


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi Diana,

There is no right or wrong answer really and everyone will tell you something different. Does your breeder have any opinion on the subject? it might be worth asking them for their input. 

Personally with a giant breed I would be tempted to wait until after her second season when would be around 20 months of age.


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## Doguiesrus (Apr 18, 2012)

I have large breeds and I too would wait but this is my personal opinion of it. Both me and my sister bought litter sisters and she spayed hers at 1 I didn't. Her dog is half the dog mine is and I always said it was because she spayed too early. I know I have no evidence to support this as its always possible to have a small one in litter but she certainly wasn't a 'runt'. And I know some other of the litter and they are more like mine than hers. I don't have much experience of spaying but the same with horses I don't have my boys gelded until two which a lot consider late after cutting theirs at 6 months but I feel it must affect growth and development one way or another. Sure someone with more experience in this are will come long soon xx


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I leave my girls entire until at least after their second season, so a good 18 months, and these days I'd probably leave them longer than that - I have Labradors and a flatcoat. I just don't see the need to spay them earlier, although if I had an entire dog or two I may think differently. But then as my lot are also potential breeding stock, I wouldn't want to have them spayed before I made that decision either. But for me, definitely once they've reached full physical maturity, so possibly a bit soon for your girl.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I left my ovcharka till he was 2 before having his nuts off mainly as I hadn't got round to it more than anything, although I did ask the vets about early neutering and its affects on size etc and apparently it doesn't make a difference and if anything early neutering makes them taller. With horses if you geld early before the growth plates have fused, so at around a year old, they grow far taller than those who are left till later to be cut as testosterone inhibits growth height wise, but they don't develop the cresty neck of a stallion. 

I've had my ridegeback bitches speyed at different times, mother and daughter, the mother was speyed after her first and only litter at 3 and a half and her daughter was done after her first season so at about 14 months old, both are the same height, and temperament wise it has made no difference at all. So I think it's down to personal preference and if you can cope having her come back into season again.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

I have just had my GSD spayed last friday, she was 2 in June. I wanted to wait until she had finished growing mentally and physically, but this was just personal choice, I'm no specialist


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## dianajc891 (Oct 4, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I feel that I should wait until after Ruby's second season and be sure that she has matured enough. I had a bad experience with my first Newfoundland in France. Vanille was spayed at 8 months on the advice of her breeder. Her coat never matured properly and she still had puppy coat in places when she was adult. Also she had hip dysplasia and arthritis before she was 2 years old; I am not absolutely sure there is a link here between the two, or whether this was just unlucky breeding.

Anyway, Ruby's first season was fairly easy to live with, so I can wait.
Best wishes.
Diana


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I know there is some evidence linking ligament problems to early spay/neuter, but I haven't read anything linking early onset of arthritis to spaying/neutering. I hope this time round your girl comes through with no problems, I've got an older girl who was spayed when mature who has ligament problems and arthritis, but the ligament problems began before she was spayed even, so I'm sure it's not necessarily linked, but it does make you wonder!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dianajc891 said:


> My St Bernard, Ruby, is now 11-MO & has just finished her first season.
> My question is, when should I get her spayed?
> 
> I feel that spaying her before her next season may be too soon as she would only be 14-MO
> & still undergoing development.





dianajc891 said:


> Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
> I feel that I should wait until after Ruby's second season and be sure that she has matured enough.
> 
> I had a bad experience with my first Newfoundland in France. Vanille was spayed at 8-MO on the advice
> ...


Hello, Diana - 
I very much doubt that the HD & Arthritis of Ur first Newfie had any causative relationship with her spay;
HD is a multifactorial genetic & developmental problem, pups born of parents with excellent hips CAN become 
dysplastic, especially if the pup is overfed by an owner who doesn't realize that lean is better for long-term 
health & joint / skeletal development; overfeeding a pup means young joints are overloaded while they are 
still cartilaginous, & this can cause serious issues even in pups out of scored parents with perfect hips.

Joint issues in giant-breeds are always a worry; Saints suffer from lousy knees, bad hips, & bad elbows
quite commonly. Were Ruby's parents screened with radiographs, & scored via Penn-HIP or similar?

[Penn-HIP offers immediate reading / on-site analysis by the vet who does the X-rays; also, not ONE 
pose for the hip-rads, but THREE different positions. There is no added fee for sending it off to a remote 
location to be read, & the determination is breed-specific, with Boxers compared to Boxers, GSDs 
to GSDs, Poodles to Poodles, etc - not to some single-model of canine ideal, as OFA does.]

here are AVAR's list of breed-specific heritable problems in Saints:
_*Saint Bernard*: 
27, 31, 38, 42, 60, 72, 83, 88, 94, 94a, 103, 109, 114, 118, 121, 122, 
128, 131, 133, 140, 147, 148, 149, 152, 155, 166, 188, 198, 221, 221a, 
225, 262, 273a, 298, 325, 328, 329, 330_

Each number indicates a specific condition, which can be found here:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061204833-post70.html

Ex:
*27. Behavioral abnormalities*: 
a whole range of abnormal behavior patterns, such as aggression, panic disorders, etc., 
obsessive compulsive disorders like spinners or tail-chasing, & *pica* [seen in the EBT].

*31. Bloat*: 
the dog's stomach produces excessive gas & enlarges severely enough to cause death without 
immediate treatment. Bloat is usually associated with gastric torsion. (also see #131.)

*38. Cardiomyopathy*: 
a disease of weakened heart muscles [associated with taurine deficiency in the Golden Retriever]. 
Also found in giant breeds, Boxer, American Cocker Spaniel, & Doberman Pinscher.

*42. Cataract*: 
as in humans, a change in structure of the lens of the eye leading to cloudiness & usually 
to blindness.

Etcetera. :001_smile:
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

An article on prepubertal desex by a vet who breeds Wolfhounds - 
Early Spay/neuter

ESP = "early sterilization programs"



> *Emphasis added in BOLD - *
> _
> 
> ...over the past 25 to 30 years, a few progressive animal shelters began various early sterilization programs
> ...


Given that these pups were desexed at 10-WO prior to delivery to their buyers, & the breeder is 
a veterinarian with a long-term experience of pediatric desex, plus the decades of pediatric desex 
statistics in municipal shelters & privately-funded rescues, i think that dogs [or cats] can be safely S/N 
& even have better results, when desexed before puberty. JMO, of course.
.
.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

I NEVER spay a dog before its been in heat at least twice, males are healthier if left intact. I do it around 18 months when they are both physically and mentally mature. Even before reading this article Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs | Doglistener
I never did it early.

Its a matter of opinion and personal preference and I speak only for myself but I feel its better to wait because once done it can not be undone and just for the sake of argument what if the article is right?

I'd rather wait then be sorry later. Just my opinion


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Linda2147 said:


> I NEVER spay a dog before [*she* has] been in heat at least twice;
> *males are healthier if left intact*.


 A- "its" do not come into estrus AKA heat - females do.

B- If males are "always" *healthier when intact,*
where are the statistics on all the dogs who were spayed pre-puberty in the USA, Aus.,
& even in the UK, who are living to normal lifespans & have no side-effects of "bad health" 
attributable to their pediatric desex?

Moreover, what about the millions upon millions of male-dogs who are desexed at 6 to 8-MO, 
& have no health problems linked to their neutering, either?

What about the EVEN-MORE common millions upon millions of bitches, who are spayed *before their 
1st heat* during puberty, thus avoiding 99.99% of the risk of mammary cancer [*4 times as common 
in female dogs as it is in female humans*] as well as avoiding the risk of Pyometra, unplanned litters, etc?

Please don't shove the usual widely-disseminated article on "canine athletes & neutering" at me; 
 i'm more than familiar with it, Zinks' paper has been thoroughly dissected, & many unwarranted 
conclusions & misleading unconnected implications are drawn, in it.


Linda2147 said:


> I do it around 18 months when they are both physically & mentally mature. Even before reading this
> [Stan Rawlinson] article, I never did it early.
> 
> [It's, sic] a matter of opinion and personal preference...


If it's simply "opinion & personal preference", who cares?
U prefer strawberry, i like vanilla - it's all good. ::Shrug::

However, if U are basing this on health concerns, it's no longer merely personal taste.
It is, or it SHOULD BE, based on science - specifically, veterinary statistics, which agree across 
a number of nations around the world: Pre-pubertal & / or pubertal [traditional 6-MO] desex 
is a safe & simple operation, free of any long-term health effects, & very low-risk.

The AVMA [American Vet-Med Assoc], their counterparts in Oz & the UK, have all published their own
publicly-available position papers on the safety of desex [Spay / Neuter], & all recommend it without 
any reservation, for dogs or cats who are not to be bred as adults.

The sole consideration for pre-pubertal / *pediatric* desex is that the vet must have the equipment to 
keep the smaller animals *warm* during the short surgery & while they wake-up from anaesthesia, 
as they are larger surface-area / smaller volume vs pubertal or adult animals, & do not 
thermo-regulate as well.
.
.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

Do what you want with your dog, I prefer to wait, There are many studies done that points to joint and leg problems with males neutered before one year of age, also increased cases of bone cancer in the larger breeds. As far as mammary cancer the risk goes up only somethng like 1% with each heat cycle.

I'm all for spaying, to many animals die in shelters because of irresponsible people, My concern is with the health of my own dog, she is spayed but was not done until she was 18 months old.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Linda2147 said:


> As far as mammary cancer the risk goes up only somethng like 1% with each heat cycle.


Some stats:
- Slightly over *1 in 4* intact-Fs will develop mammary cancers. [26%]

- It's even more-common in Pointers, Irish Setters, Brittany Spaniels, English Springer Spaniels, 
Labrador Retrievers, Great Pyrenees, Samoyeds, Airedale Terriers, Miniature & Toy Poodles, 
Dachshunds, Boston [*Bull &*] Terriers, & Keeshonden.

- Most mammary-gland tumors occur in bitches over 6 years of age.

- Approx *41 to 53%* are cancerous, & an average of *50 to 55%* are benign.

- Multiple tumors are common. If a bitch has one tumor, she is *3 times* more-likely 
to have [simultaneously], or to develop, another tumor.

- *Inflammatory cancer* is a rapidly progressive neoplasm that spreads throughout the chain of 
mammary glands, & into surrounding skin & fat. Death usually comes in a matter of weeks. 
Inflammatory cancer may be difficult to distinguish from acute septic mastitis.

- *Malignant tumors* spread widely, primarily to pelvic lymph-nodes & lungs. 
Before treatment, a chest X-ray should be done to rule-out lung metastases, present in *30%* of these cancers.

- Ultrasonography is useful to determine if pelvic lymph nodes are involved.

- Tumor biopsy may not be needed, if surgical removal is intended.
Inflammatory cancer *must* be biopsied, as there's little to gain by aggressive treatment.

- Ovariohysterectomy [spay] reduces the risk of mammary neoplasia, with an incidence of *0.5%* 
or less if spayed before the 1st-estrus, *8%* before the 2nd estrus, & *26%* after 2 cycles.

Spaying a bitch has, sadly, no protective effect re mammary-cancer after 2.5 years of age.

So... yes, delaying the spay-op until the dog is 18-MO does add significant risk [from 0.5% to about 20%].
.
.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, my last shepherd before this one was a rescue, spayed early and developed lymphoma at 7 years old. Maybe, maybe no early spaying had something to do with it. I'm not taking any chances.

I know any dog can develop cancer its pretty common but with all the pros and cons on early spay and neuter I'm going with not taking any chances.

Also I feed raw and make my own treats, she has no chemicals in her food, I don't think that is good for them either.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Linda2147 said:


> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, my last shepherd before this one was a rescue, spayed early and developed lymphoma at 7 years old. Maybe, maybe no early spaying had something to do with it. I'm not taking any chances.
> 
> I know any dog can develop cancer its pretty common but with all the pros and cons on early spay and neuter I'm going with not taking any chances.
> 
> Also I feed raw and make my own treats, she has no chemicals in her food, I don't think that is good for them either.


I have only ever kept one bitch entire in my life (lots of bitches) and she got bone cancer!

There are a few reasons for spaying a bitch. Some people cannot handle a season, maybe own an entire dog or there are a lot of entire dogs around. There is a high risk of pyometra and it does not only occur in older bitches, it is relatively common in young bitches too and is life threatening. There is a risk of mammary tumours later in life which is more or less taken away by spaying before the first season and, according to my vet, spaying after the second season will have no effect on the liklihood of developing it.
And obviously the other reason is that there is always a risk of an unwanted pregnancy.

Personally I have always preferred to wait till after one season as that was the recommendation when I was younger but I think I might be getting old fashioned as so many bitches are spayed before their first season.
On the other hand it certainly does not sit well with me to spay them at a few weeks old, I think that is a huge step too far.

It is your choice when you spay your bitch. I do not believe it will inhibit growth but I do agree you could have a poor coat as I am sure hormones are needed to bring in the adult coat. It would be interesting to know what happens with the baby puppies - do they develop proper coats or stay with puppy coats. Also do they develop proper vulvas or do they keep tight baby ones and end up with urine scald and urine infections.

If you want to spay her before her next season you want to do it about 3 months after her season so you still have time to decide.
Do bear in mind though that it is possible she could have pyometra after her next season, it is relatively likely that she will get a false pregnancy and be miserable for a few weeks and it could be that she will get mammary tumours in later life.

Why not talk to your vet and get advice from the professional who is spaying bitches all the time and seeing spayed and unspayed bitches and their problems.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> It is your choice when you spay your bitch. I do not believe it will inhibit growth but I do agree
> you could have a poor coat, as I'm sure hormones are needed to bring in the adult coat.
> 
> It would be interesting to know what happens [after prepubertal desex] -
> ...


Remember "prepubertal" is desex done anytime between 7-WO & 16-WO, roughly speaking.

From 
Pediatric Spay/Neuter | ASPCA Professional

QUOTE:
_"Secondary Sexual Characteristics

The vulva of spayed females is smaller than that of intact bitches, but there is no evidence that 
there is any clinical significance to this size difference. Perivulvular dermatitis occurs in intact 
as well as spayed females, & is related to *obesity* rather than sexual status. 
Mammary glands and nipples [of bitches who were spayed as juveniles] are also smaller.

The penis and prepuce of male animals will retain a juvenile appearance, but again, there is no 
evidence of any clinical significance, in animals that are not sexually active.

There is a reduction in the male cat's ability to extrude the penis from the prepuce, but there is 
no knowledge of any clinical problems associated with this. It can occur whether the surgery 
is performed at 7 weeks, or 7 months of age."_
.
.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

BLITZ: 

My bitch was done at 18 months old, she had two heat cycles and she was about 3 months past her last cycle when I had it done. 

She is from a long line of champions, she herself could have easily won her championship had I chosen to show her, my groomer is a professional handler, he handled the dog that won at Westminster, the big show around here, he told me he would handle her for me and she would fly through the ring and get her championship in no time. I chose not to show her as I never intended to breed her, and she can't read her pedigree. She is just a pet and companion. 

Spay and neuter is a controversial subject, I'm just saying people have to be informed when making the decision as to when or to do it at all. I wanted her to grow into all she could be so I waited. Now I have a lovely dog, fully mature, beautiful coat and a true shepherd disposition. 

Others can do what they want with their dogs, I chose to wait and I'm not sorry I did


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