# Breeding hamster's



## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

Hi
My mum decided to try and breed the hamster's we have got, we put them together for three nights in a row, on the first night it looked like some action took place,the other nights they just checked each other out and waqndered around the cage
Anyhow,was just wondering how long before a hamster starts to show,ie gets fat and nipples start to show?
Because would like baby hamsters and if she is not pregnant will try again but not sure how long to wait.
It was about 1 n half week since put them together


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

Do you know their background? Where did you buy them from? 

Do you know anything about hamster genetics, colouring and the dangers of mating certain colourings together? 

Do you have twenty or so cages ready for the babies? Do you have all the toys, substrate, wheels, food etc for each cage? 

Do you have vet money? If there are complications you will need to take the female to the vet. Or if they fight you will need to take them to the vet.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

No offence,i asked for advice not a load of questions.
We are not idiots and go unprepared into anything,there is plenty of cages etc to hold young in,we have sources/means to be able to sell any young etc, so instead of jumping to conclusions,how about posting something sensible and actually answering the question i actally asked please?


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

What type of hamsters are they?


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

Wow, I wanted to know more about your situation that was all. I hadnt judged, just wanted to check you knew what you were doing.

Apologies for offending you...

I have no idea about them showing, I would have thought it would be very hard to tell but as the gestation period for Syrians is only 16-18 days and 18-21 for Dwarves, give it three weeks and you will know for sure.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry should have put that in my OP
They are Siberian hamsters and are unrelated


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

Purple crow,there are better ways to ask,you came acroos as very condecending and know-it-all


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

tobyneilson said:


> Sorry should have put that in my OP
> They are Siberian hamsters and are unrelated


Are they pure bred? If they are from pet shops (which I'm assuming they arent) then they are most likely hyrids.

I loooove Winter Whites, will be getting a pearl WW as soon as one is available in a litter


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

As far as i know they are not hybrids,the breeder's i got them from said they were not


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

Do you have the breeder's (written) permission to breed from them?


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> Do you have the breeder's (written) permission to breed from them?


No does that make a difference,they were bought at a auction,i talk to the breeders on the night,and 75% of the animals bought at auction tend to be for breeding purpose


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

I know that most (if not all) ethical breeder will not allow their animals to be bred from - and usually have a contract explicitly stating that. 

To be honest, those who sell at auctions probably aren't ethical breeders - which makes me wonder whether your hamsters will be of optimal health to breed from anyway.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

Can I ask what are your reasons for wanting to breed?

Answer to your original question: I would treat her like she is pregnant for now as you can only really tell if they are pregnant 2 or 3 days before she gives birth.
Are you feeding her high protein foods like scrambled egg, a bit of cheese, and various other things?
What cage is she in? 
Does she still have a wheel in her cage?


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> I know that most (if not all) ethical breeder will not allow their animals to be bred from - and usually have a contract explicitly stating that.
> 
> To be honest, those who sell at auctions probably aren't ethical breeders - which makes me wonder whether your hamsters will be of optimal health to breed from anyway.


That is a terrible assumption to make!
I buy and sell at auction,does that mean i am unethical and do not look after my pets?
I live in a rural place where animals are well treated and looked after,if anyone thought any of the animals were unhealthy/optimal health etc,the auction would not allow them to be sold, please will people stop making assumptions about things they do not know anything about,


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3rnie, thankyou for a sensible answer,yes she does still have her wheel,should i take it out?
We are feeding high protein food and fruit and plenty of it,also some bread soaked in milk(read on internet)


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

tobyneilson said:


> That is a terrible assumption to make!
> I buy and sell at auction,does that mean i am unethical and do not look after my pets?
> I live in a rural place where animals are well treated and looked after,if anyone thought any of the animals were unhealthy/optimal health etc,the auction would not allow them to be sold, please will people stop making assumptions about things they do not know anything about,


I'm sorry if your offended, but I am entitled to my opinion and in my opinion, and from my experience with buying breeder rodents, there is always an application process, usually a waiting list, a signed contract (stating no breeding) and then checks on the animals health throughout the remainder of it's life. I wouldn't buy an animal from anybody who didn't follow these ethical guidelines. Somebody who allows their animals to be bred without questioning them isn't, in my opinion, an ethical breeder. More likely a BYB.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> B3rnie, thankyou for a sensible answer,yes she does still have her wheel,should i take it out?
> We are feeding high protein food and fruit and plenty of it,also some bread soaked in milk(read on internet)


I would leave it for a bit, but a few days before she is due I would take it out as it can cause injury's, especially if mum decides to have them under or in the wheel.
I would also clean her cage out a couple of days before as you won't be able to do anything with it until the babies leave the nest.
Also if her cage has levels I would also take these out for the same reason as the wheel.
When you say bread soaked in milk I assume you mean soya or kitten milk, as cows milk isn't very good for most animals (except calfs lol)

I will ask again tho, what are your reasons for wanting to breed?


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

What do you mean BYB?
Yes everyone is entitled to their opinions,but that does not mean you have to force them on others and tell them they are wrong or unethical if they do something that you do not like.
I breed birds,and buy from auction and breeders direct,and not once have i had to sign anything about not breeding,that is how you keep the bloodlines fresh.
Is it more ethical to keep breeding the from same family and have brother and sister breed,which can cause trouble in the future,or actaly introduce new bloodlines?
If breeders did not allow their animals to be bred from,how would new bloodlines be introduced?


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3ernie, yes it was soya milk.
as for reasons,mum wanted to breed them so she could have some hamster babies,she will keep 1 or 2 and sell the others on, as for space etc there is plenty of space,it has been thought and researched, it was not just a run of the mill sudden thought/act on impulse


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

An just so people know,We are not new to breeding/keeping animals etc, We live on a farm,so there is breeding of cows sheep etc, we breed lion head rabbits,i have a avary with birds that i breed,have bred dogs and cats(not together obviouslet lol) so I am not new to breeding and do have a good idea what i am doing,just never bred hamsters so was unsure on one small detail


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## Yorkshire_Rose (Aug 5, 2009)

I used to breed winter whites.

All i can advise is make sure you seperate the male before the female births and make sure you take the babies out at 4 week incase of inbreeding.

Also if the mother is pregnnt while caring for a litter at the same come, she will kill the first litter if they arent removed from the cage.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> B3ernie, yes it was soya milk.
> as for reasons,mum wanted to breed them so she could have some hamster babies,she will keep 1 or 2 and sell the others on, as for space etc there is plenty of space,it has been thought and researched, it was not just a run of the mill sudden thought/act on impulse


ok, in my eyes this is not a good reason to breed (before you jump on me I have reasons)
Do you know how hard and heartbreaking it is to breed hamsters? Most mums will cull their first litter (not 100% of the time but the majority), do you know the genetic history of both hamsters going back 4 generations? 
If the answer to my second question is no, then IMO they shouldn't have been bred in the first place.
99% of my pets are here because someone wanted to have "cute" babies.
In my mind as you are willing to put animals through auctions you are *not * a caring breeder as you have no idea where they will end up, it is just as bad as selling to pet shops imo.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

Dont worry,the male n female are not housed togeher,we just put them together for a couple hours each night for 3 nights, and was not planning on letting her breed again until after she has had this litter(if she is pregnant) and had a well earned rest


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

I used to breed Syrian hamsters.

How many cages have you got? Because I ended up with a litter of 16 hamsters and they didnt all sell...and I lived in the city. 

I believe out of the 16 hamsters from that litter only 8 sold. The rest I kept. 

Another litter I had the mother ate 8 out of 10 of them and I was picking up half eaten legs and face's when ti came to clean out time.

There is not a market out there for them, honestly. Too many pet shops and auctions are selling them. Go on any pet sale site and you will see countless up for rehoming. 

I had a litter of winter whites only 1 litter, I was assured by the breeder that they were not related yet 2 of the 3 in the litter were deformed and had to be put to sleep.

People on here are not trying to have a go or get at you however many of us on here have experience in this and know the usual outcome.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> ok, in my eyes this is not a good reason to breed (before you jump on me I have reasons)
> Do you know how hard and heartbreaking it is to breed hamsters? Most mums will cull their first litter (not 100% of the time but the majority), do you know the genetic history of both hamsters going back 4 generations?
> If the answer to my second question is no, then IMO they shouldn't have been bred in the first place.
> 99% of my pets are here because someone wanted to have "cute" babies.
> In my mind as you are willing to put animals through auctions you are *not * a caring breeder as you have no idea where they will end up, it is just as bad as selling to pet shops imo.


Am not jumping on you here,but if you have read my posts,it states that i live in a rural area,and know most the people at the auction,
Yes we know how heartbreaking things can be,have had birds kill their young and even kill eachother,We are not entering this with rose coloured glasses on or anything


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I used to breed Syrian hamsters.
> 
> How many cages have you got? Because I ended up with a litter of 16 hamsters and they didnt all sell...and I lived in the city.
> 
> ...


If you read the thread,i can sell them at auction,which everyone has jumped on and called me unethical etc,

This is my last post here,not just on this thread but this site altogether,i am sick of the pompous know it all attitude that you all have,just because someone does things different from you you seem to think they are wrong/unethical/uncaring etc


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

Sorry, I don't really know what living in a rural area has to do with anything? I live in a very, very rural area and still went over 100 miles for my breeder rats, as I couldn't find a breeder local to me whose ethics I agreed with or supported.


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## srhdufe (Feb 11, 2009)

tobyneilson said:


> No offence,i asked for advice not a load of questions.
> We are not idiots and go unprepared into anything,there is plenty of cages etc to hold young in,we have sources/means to be able to sell any young etc, so instead of jumping to conclusions,how about posting something sensible and actually answering the question i actally asked please?


WOW! Purple crow asked some reasonable questions. She was not rude at all.



tobyneilson said:


> Sorry should have put that in my OP
> They are Siberian hamsters and are unrelated


In other words they are syrians then 



tobyneilson said:


> Purple crow,there are better ways to ask,you came acroos as very condecending and know-it-all


Like i said. She is not condecending. She was trying to offer advice, but you just take it the wrong way. If you dont want advice then dont bloody ask!


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

tobyneilson said:


> What do you mean BYB?
> 
> *I breed birds,and buy from auction and breeders direct,and not once have i had to sign anything about not breeding,that is how you keep the bloodlines fresh.*


I'm sorry, this is rubbish. Ethical breeders work together to improve the species. That's one of the reasons why contracts are so important. Those who sell at auction are in it for the money. That's not to say the animals aren't well cared for - I never actually said or implied that, it's to say that it's of no benefit whatsoever to the species in question. Especially when there are so many in rescue.


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## miniloo (Feb 7, 2011)

everyone has to start somewhere and i think you have asked a sencible question, 

i understand that the others might be worried about but it sounds like you are just wanting some more info. 

good luck with your new litter, 
i can't help you on when you can tell as i have mice and have never breed hamsters, i am aslo producing my first litter of mice, so have asked a few of these my questions myself, 

on of the things i was adviced was to put in a nesting box, a cardboard box that she can have the litter in in the dark, also that you remove other things like tubing so that she wont have them in these places, other then that i was adviced not to give to much fruit and veg but increase things like scrambled egg. and maybe oats, but like i said mines a mouse. 

may i ask what birds you bred?


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> If you read the thread,i can sell them at auction,which everyone has jumped on and called me unethical etc,
> 
> This is my last post here,not just on this thread but this site altogether,i am sick of the pompous know it all attitude that you all have,just because someone does things different from you you seem to think they are wrong/unethical/uncaring etc


It is unethical....

What would you think of me if I bred dogs that I couldnt rehome so gave them to poor quality homes were they could be used as food for another animal?

If you want to leave the forum because the advice you got wasnt what you wanted to hear then okay....but I know that me and other members can still sleep well knowing that we said how we truly felt and not what you wanted to hear.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

tobyneilson said:


> If you read the thread,*i can sell them at auction*,which everyone has jumped on and called me unethical etc,
> 
> This is my last post here,not just on this thread but this site altogether,i am sick of the pompous know it all attitude that you all have,just because someone does things different from you you seem to think they are wrong/unethical/uncaring etc


I don't mean to come across as being rude but aren't auctions one of the worst places for selling animals as you don't know who will be getting them- they could end up as feeder breeders like the rats I rescued last year, once the owner lost interest the rats were left in a hutch to die, the 3 girls I kept were all pregnant & when it came to rehoming the babies I did it through an ethical forum, sent out questionnaires & rehoming contracts & have kept in touch with all their new families, would it not be better to do this? I wouldn't be able to sleep at night not knowing where the babies I loved & raised ended up


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## Yorkshire_Rose (Aug 5, 2009)

FYI ive bought quite a few rabbits from auctions (for as litter as 50p for a litter of 4 ), most of them had behavioural problems and medical aswel, I remember one i bought once cost me £2.50 for him, then cost me over £100 in vet bills becaus ehe had brain damage.

I know by buying these im contributing but doing it for the good in a way if i hadnt have bought the brain damaged rabbit then it could of been bought by someone else and breed more babies with the problem.

Ive also had them with teeth problems aswel.


Iknow these are hamsters but i feel it all ties under the same knot.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

Thankyou miniloo for that advice i will put that into practice
I breed zebra finches,bengalese finches and am starting to breed scotch fancies canaries as well


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

Yorkshire_Rose said:


> FYI ive bought quite a few rabbits from auctions (for as litter as 50p for a litter of 4 ), most of them had behavioural problems and medical aswel, I remember one i bought once cost me £2.50 for him, then cost me over £100 in vet bills becaus ehe had brain damage.
> 
> I know by buying these im contributing but doing it for the good in a way if i hadnt have bought the brain damaged rabbit then it could of been bought by someone else and breed more babies with the problem.
> 
> ...


I have only ever bought from a auction once which was 2 ferrets I felt were being kept in rotten condition. He had htem in a solid wood box with no air holes/vents in teh boot of his car on the hottest day of the year.

I walked up to him and bought 2 of them as there was another man there buying the other 2. I brought them home nad rehomed them via a foster/rescue service which they both found great homes completely free of charge.

I go to the auction every other week (its the biggest auction in this part of the UK) and am always disgusted by the state of the small animals.

I nearly bought some ducks last time....poor little things looked so ill.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> It is unethical....
> 
> What would you think of me if I bred dogs that I couldnt rehome so gave them to poor quality homes were they could be used as food for another animal?
> 
> If you want to leave the forum because the advice you got wasnt what you wanted to hear then okay....but I know that me and other members can still sleep well knowing that we said how we truly felt and not what you wanted to hear.


I can rehome,just not the way that you think is "ethical"
I know the people who buy hamsters up at the auction,they are looked after
And to the poster who said about they got a brain damaged rabbit, that can happen no matter who you buy from,i bought a yorkie from a respected breeder,but it ended up having a medical condition and died 3 years old, as for the auction i buy from,they do not allow animals in that look uncared/ ill-health etc,I have bought plenty birds/rabbits/hamsters/rats from there and never had any trouble with any of them
As for leaving because i "dont like the advice",what advice?All you have done is tell me i am unethical and uncaring because i biuy/sell at auction, I also sell privatly,like you lot do,just with birds,
I am not in it for the money,as someone pointed out they go for very little money at auctions,i am in it because i love animals and breeding is part of nature 
If you lot dont like my views/opinions so be it,but as someone pointed out,we are all allowed our own opinions


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Yorkshire_Rose said:


> FYI ive bought quite a few rabbits from auctions (for as litter as 50p for a litter of 4 ), most of them had behavioural problems and medical aswel, I remember one i bought once cost me £2.50 for him, then cost me over £100 in vet bills becaus ehe had brain damage.
> 
> I know by buying these im contributing but doing it for the good in a way if i hadnt have bought the brain damaged rabbit then it could of been bought by someone else and breed more babies with the problem.
> 
> ...


I understand that its good to get them out of there & I respect you for taking on animals that are in need, but the seller can't guarantee the new owners will be unethical, I know its not guaranteed that rehoming questionnaires & contracts will prevent all poor owners getting hold of them but it does help provide an outline of the person's knowledge, unlike an auction where anyone can buy an animal & that's the last they'd hear of it


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> Thankyou miniloo for that advice i will put that into practice
> I breed zebra finches,bengalese finches and am starting to breed scotch fancies canaries as well


Are you breeding these because you want to see cute babies too 
I love the way you skip over all the posts that don't agree with you, sorry but this screams BYB to me


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I have only ever bought from a auction once which was 2 ferrets I felt were being kept in rotten condition. He had htem in a solid wood box with no air holes/vents in teh boot of his car on the hottest day of the year.
> 
> I walked up to him and bought 2 of them as there was another man there buying the other 2. I brought them home nad rehomed them via a foster/rescue service which they both found great homes completely free of charge.
> 
> ...


Sorry but that sounds totaly different to auction i go to,i know i will never convince you lot, but that sounds like someone just seling out of his car,which i do not do.
The auction i buy from,no animals are submitted unless they have been checked over by a member of staff,all of whom have years of experience with animals, no animals are allowed unless there is plenty of room for them to move,a open side(covered in mesh) so there is plenty of air(also allows you to see them proper) and they must all have food and water in the carrier/box etc with them,


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> I can rehome,just not the way that you think is "ethical"
> I know the people who buy hamsters up at the auction,they are looked after
> And to the poster who said about they got a brain damaged rabbit, that can happen no matter who you buy from,i bought a yorkie from a respected breeder,but it ended up having a medical condition and died 3 years old, as for the auction i buy from,they do not allow animals in that look uncared/ ill-health etc,I have bought plenty birds/rabbits/hamsters/rats from there and never had any trouble with any of them
> As for leaving because i "dont like the advice",what advice?All you have done is tell me i am unethical and uncaring because i biuy/sell at auction, I also sell privatly,like you lot do,just with birds,
> ...


If you love animals why do you want to breed a small animal that is already struggling to find homes?

You cant possibly know if the homes via auction are going to be good, you cant vet them..how do you know they wont be rat food for example? Or ferret bait food? (I have seen this many times).

Farmers have very little use for hamsters and most people who go to live auctions are usually farmers.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> Sorry but that sounds totaly different to auction i go to,i know i will never convince you lot, but that sounds like someone just seling out of his car,which i do not do.
> The auction i buy from,no animals are submitted unless they have been checked over by a member of staff,all of whom have years of experience with animals, no animals are allowed unless there is plenty of room for them to move,a open side(covered in mesh) so there is plenty of air(also allows you to see them proper) and they must all have food and water in the carrier/box etc with them,


You go to the same auction as me....just noticed you live round the corner from me. SO it looks like its the same auction.


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## Yorkshire_Rose (Aug 5, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I have only ever bought from a auction once which was 2 ferrets I felt were being kept in rotten condition. He had htem in a solid wood box with no air holes/vents in teh boot of his car on the hottest day of the year.
> 
> I walked up to him and bought 2 of them as there was another man there buying the other 2. I brought them home nad rehomed them via a foster/rescue service which they both found great homes completely free of charge.
> 
> ...


I was just telling Sarah on msn, the last time i went i almost came back with 10 ducklings and 5 ferrets.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Are you breeding these because you want to see cute babies too
> I love the way you skip over all the posts that don't agree with you, sorry but this screams BYB to me


Have you actaly read any of my posts proper?
I look after and love all my pets, can i ask what your reasons for breeding are then?


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

Yorkshire_Rose said:


> I was just telling Sarah on msn, the last time i went i almost came back with 10 ducklings and 5 ferrets.


Which auction did you go to?  Turns out me and the OP go to the same auction.


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## Yorkshire_Rose (Aug 5, 2009)

The auction i used to go to.

One was bigger and was more terrible conditions and the other was smaller and seemed to be better than the large one because you could actually hold the animals and check them out for yourself and could also speak to the breeder.


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## Yorkshire_Rose (Aug 5, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Which auction did you go to?  Turns out me and the OP go to the same auction.


Both of the ones in Selby, although i havent been since last year.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

Yorkshire_Rose said:


> Both of the ones in Selby, although i havent been since last year.


Never been to one in Selby, the one I go to I go purely because some good friends sell on stalls there. I usually go into the animal bit but always upsets me.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I have only ever bought from a auction once which was 2 ferrets I felt were being kept in rotten condition. He had htem in a solid wood box with no air holes/vents in teh boot of his car on the hottest day of the year.
> 
> I walked up to him and bought 2 of them as there was another man there buying the other 2. I brought them home nad rehomed them via a foster/rescue service which they both found great homes completely free of charge.
> 
> ...


If you mean clitheroe auction on a wednesday,then yes
And the statment i have quoted,sounds like you bought them straight from the dealer,out the back of his car,which is not the auction,that is someone chancing his luck,and i agree i dont like people doing that


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Never been to one in Selby, the one I go to I go purely because some good friends sell on stalls there. I usually go into the animal bit but always upsets me.


I've never been to an auction that sells animals & don't think I want to, for the same reasons as you


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

tobyneilson said:


> Have you actaly read any of my posts proper?
> I look after and love all my pets, can i ask what your reasons for breeding are then?


Not many of us breed or condone breeding at all tbh. Personally I'll only accept that a breeder is doing right by the animal if they're actually trying to improve the breed in the first place.

Also wanted to add, a friend of mine went to an auction like this, saw baby gerbils suffering in glass coffee jars with a couple of holes punched in the lid.


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

I've been to a meat auction before with a lady who used to go regularly and rescue horses. They were going for pennies, it was so sad.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

Yorkshire_Rose said:


> The auction i used to go to.
> 
> One was bigger and was more terrible conditions and the other was smaller and seemed to be better than the large one because you could actually hold the animals and check them out for yourself and could also speak to the breeder.


The one you descibe in second line is like the one i go to,you can handle the animals,see them proper,and talk to the breeders as they are always around,all you need to do is ask as you can garentee someone knows who the breeder is and able to find them
If shetlandlover is at same one,she is welcome to come and question me anytime and find out how much i love my animals


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> If you mean clitheroe auction on a wednesday,then yes
> And the statment i have quoted,sounds like you bought them straight from the dealer,out the back of his car,which is not the auction,that is someone chancing his luck,and i agree i dont like people doing that


Yes, and he goes every week yet the auction does nothing to stop him. 
I can honestly say I have been going for some 15 years now and I have only ever seen a handful of healthy happy looking animals.

Now I know were you plan to sell them and I can honestly say they would be safer being sold to a pet shop. (and i dont agree with pet shops either) In clitheroe there is a lovely pet shop the owners are fantastic people if you insist on breeding then I would rehome via them. That way they are not in a cold cage in a freezing room. Most hamsters would go into hibernation before the auctions finished.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> Have you actaly read any of my posts proper?
> I look after and love all my pets, can i ask what your reasons for breeding are then?


I have read the posts and if you loved them you wouldn't breed them imo, there are thousands of animals in rescue needing good homes, so rather than helping them you just breed to sell at auction 

And you aren't going to like hearing this BUT if you had researched breeding hamsters you would have known the answers to your original questions 
You still haven't answered if you know the genetic history of both so I will take that as you don't know 

You moan about everyone's attitude, sorry but the only attitude I see is yours when people don't agree with you


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Yes, and he goes every week yet the auction does nothing to stop him.
> I can honestly say I have been going for some 15 years now and I have only ever seen a handful of healthy happy looking animals.
> 
> Now I know were you plan to sell them and I can honestly say they would be safer being sold to a pet shop. (and i dont agree with pet shops either) In clitheroe there is a lovely pet shop the owners are fantastic people if you insist on breeding then I would rehome via them. That way they are not in a cold cage in a freezing room. Most hamsters would go into hibernation before the auctions finished.


I see plenty of healthy animals,and as for the selling out of a car,did you actally report him to a member of staff? Asi know they do not like people selling out of cars(and will act on them usally)

As for pet shop, if you mean pendle pets on the market,yes they are a good petshop and she would buy any from me if i wanted to as i talk to her often when i go in
You all seem to think i am uncaring and unethical just because i do things different from you,i can assure i am neither


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

tobyneilson said:


> The one you descibe in second line is like the one i go to,you can handle the animals,see them proper,and talk to the breeders as they are always around,all you need to do is ask as you can garentee someone knows who the breeder is and able to find them
> If shetlandlover is at same one,she is welcome to come and question me anytime and find out how much i love my animals


I don't think you understand what people are talking about when we're talking about the ethics of breeding.

Nobody is saying, or has said that you don't love your animals. Nor have they implied that you can't care for them properly. The problem here is that you are/plan to breed from animals of an unknown background and then sell them at an auction. Where anybody could take them.

Who is that benefiting? It's not benefiting the individual animals, or the species as a whole. It's not benefiting the purchaser - what if they end up with a sick animal? What if there are genetic implications or dieases? You wouldn't know about them because you wouldn't know where they had gone.

Ethical breeding is breeding towards the improvement of a species. For example, to impove lifespan, health, temperament etc.

You can't claim to be an ethical breeder if you don't vet homes first, know the genetic history of your animals or keep in touch with those you have rehomed for in order to assess the ongoing health of the offspring produced.

Not forgetting, as has been said - there are so, so many animals in rescue. The ratio of hamsters available to hamsters wanted is ridiculous. We don't need any more.

BYB = backyard breeder.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> You all seem to think i am uncaring and unethical just because i do things different from you,i can assure i am neither


Not because you do things differently, because you are doing things the wrong way


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> I have read the posts and if you loved them you wouldn't breed them imo, there are thousands of animals in rescue needing good homes, so rather than helping them you just breed to sell at auction
> 
> And you aren't going to like hearing this BUT if you had researched breeding hamsters you would have known the answers to your original questions
> You still haven't answered if you know the genetic history of both so I will take that as you don't know
> ...


From the research,i got varying answers as to time-line etc,so i thought i would ask some people who might know,
No i dont know the full gentics and i only have a attitude because people,like you, seem to have got the wrong impression of me


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

sorry but the words animal & auction should never go in the same sentence where I am concerned!

Feel sorry for the poor things....... bet most of the small animals end up as snake food seen as they are so cheap


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> From the research,i got varying answers as to time-line etc,so i thought i would ask some people who might know,
> No i dont know the full gentics and i only have a attitude because people,like you, seem to have got the wrong impression of me


Well I'm sorry but I have the right impression, you don't know their genetic history, then you shouldn't breed them simples


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Not because you do things differently, because you are doing things the wrong way


Who is to say what is right and what is wrong?
If auctions were wrong,the animal societits/trusts/charites etc would be doing everything in their power to close them down


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

tobyneilson said:


> No i dont know the full gentics


So how do you know you aren't breeding animals with genetic illnesses/problems/disease?

If you want to start breeding an animal, the best place to start is by contacting ethical breeders and ask them if they would mentor you. They would provide you with animals to start your line - they would be able to tell you the genetic history of those animals. They would also guide you through the process and would be able to answer your questions.

It seems that you breed a LOT of animals, and if this is your attitude towards all of them, that really does break my heart. The only benefit in this situation is your pocket.


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Well I'm sorry but I have the right impression, you don't know their genetic history, then you shouldn't breed them simples


No you have the totaly wrong imppression,i am no back yard breeder, I just do things a different way to you,


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> I see plenty of healthy animals,and as for the selling out of a car,did you actally report him to a member of staff? Asi know they do not like people selling out of cars(and will act on them usally)
> 
> As for pet shop, if you mean pendle pets on the market,yes they are a good petshop and she would buy any from me if i wanted to as i talk to her often when i go in
> You all seem to think i am uncaring and unethical just because i do things different from you,i can assure i am neither


Both me and another guy who bought them told staff. Infact, we foudn him because the man who runs a stall told us he sells from his car "every wednesday without fail" and pointed us in the direction of his car.

You are unethical, you say you love your pets but want to add to the list of animals needing homes, not to mention are willing to give them to anyone willing to pay.

They willl be in a cold drafty room that even I find cold let alone hamsters, then shipped off with random people to a life that you will never know what happens.

Do you think its acceptable to sell dogs/cats at auction? If not then whats the difference? Hamsters deserve the same quality of life as any other creature.

No not Pendle pets although she is very nice. I mean the pet shop across from sainsburys.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

tobyneilson said:


> Who is to say what is right and what is wrong?
> If auctions were wrong,the animal societits/trusts/charites etc would be doing everything in their power to close them down


Well they are LOL
And sorry but as I have said many times, breeding for cute babies is wrong. Why not try and help some of the rescues out if you have spare cages rather than adding to the problem.....


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> sorry but the words animal & auction should never go in the same sentence where I am concerned!
> 
> Feel sorry for the poor things....... bet most of the small animals end up as snake food seen as they are so cheap


or if not the actual food then bred from continuously so their babies can be food:frown:


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

That's the thing, they _are_ trying, but while it's more convenient to pop down to the pet shop, or cheaper to go to the auction, rescues get overlooked.

Many people swear by the phrase; "Why breed and buy while rescue pets die?"


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

regardless of the species of animal you are breeding you should always know the background of them and the genetics of breeding.

You cant just put two animals together and hope for the best......... because this = BYB let alone the health implications it could cause


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tobyneilson said:


> Purple crow,there are better ways to ask,you came acroos as very condecending and know-it-all


That's not the way I read their post ...


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> So how do you know you aren't breeding animals with genetic illnesses/problems/disease?
> 
> If you want to start breeding an animal, the best place to start is by contacting ethical breeders and ask them if they would mentor you. They would provide you with animals to start your line - they would be able to tell you the genetic history of those animals. They would also guide you through the process and would be able to answer your questions.
> 
> It seems that you breed a LOT of animals, and if this is your attitude towards all of them, that really does break my heart. The only benefit in this situation is your pocket.


It does not benifit my pocket at all,trust me i dont make that much from selling,
I will leave it at this,you can all think what you want about me,you do not know me you have never met me(well maybe shetlandlover has just dont know it lol) but i care and love for all my animals and am ethical,I just dont hold up to your ideal perfect standards


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## tobyneilson (Jul 9, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Well they are LOL
> And sorry but as I have said many times, breeding for cute babies is wrong. Why not try and help some of the rescues out if you have spare cages rather than adding to the problem.....


For your infomation,i do rehome and take in unwanted pets


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

*gives up*


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Just read thse poor little mites are being bred to be sold at auctions *Shudders* 

Who breeds to sell at this type of place. What do you get for them?

A quid for ten :confused1:


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## Paws&Claws (Aug 29, 2009)

If you have bred other animals wouldnt you know what to do and not need to ask questions?  x


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

tobyneilson said:


> For your infomation,i do rehome and take in unwanted pets


Why don't you just keep these hamsters as pets & look into buying some good quality, traceable breeding hamsters from a good breeder, surely it would be worth the wait to be able to do this rather than using your hamsters with their untraceable lineage?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tobyneilson said:


> For your infomation,i do rehome and take in unwanted pets


Seriously if you had any REAL idea of the unwanted small animal situation in the UK, you would NOT be breeding to sell at vile animal auctions ... Trust me on this one


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

-walks away shaking head-


You just aren't getting it............

I shall ask another way,


WHY breed animals that you don't know the genetic history of?????
WHY breeds animals that will most likely end up as food???

In fact just WHY breed?????
If you rehome and take in unwanted pets you should know what the rescue situation is at the moment so why add to this????


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

I had a chat with the breeder of my hamster and he said that its great selling hamsters online because you know people arent buying them on impulse (because they have to be put on a waiting list) and you can get to know the new owner (and say no, sorry, you cant buy this animal if needs be). 

Can you honestly not see why animals shouldnt be sold at autions?


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

I bred a litter of hamsters in October but I researched everything before even putting them together. Everyone on this section could tell you I didn't come on asking for help/advice/had they mated etc because I researched my bum off. 

No more breeding from me yes I enjoyed the experiance but breeding hamsters isn't really a hands on experiance because you can't handle them for so long even then mum is in charge. I had homes lined up for most of them before I bred then when I had the shock of 11 in the litter I found more homes. Kept 2 for myself and it is so nice to have something I bred myself but any hammies I have in the future will be rescues. I've been asked if I'm breeding my 2 again because the babies are such a good temprement and nice markings but the answer will be no.


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## miniloo (Feb 7, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> Are you breeding these because you want to see cute babies too
> I love the way you skip over all the posts that don't agree with you, sorry but this screams BYB to me


b3rnie was this aimed at me, cos the answer is no, i got all the info or as much as i could and i had a breeder mentor who sadly died last week, she was there when i put them together and i had hoped that she would be there at the birth, my questions were and are more worries,

my point was that shes already put them together and therefore its advice she needs now.

All i want is that the hamster that she has breed to be healthy during pergnancy and when they are born, and like i said in my post i do not breed hamster although i keep them.

the reason i am breeding is that the breeder new she was dying and wanted to keep her line going, the mice i have are hers and they are both with full history. the reason for it being these two is the colouration of them and also the temperment of them both.


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

miniloo said:


> b3rnie was this aimed at me, cos the answer is no, i got all the info or as much as i could and i had a breeder mentor who sadly died last week, she was there when i put them together and i had hoped that she would be there at the birth, my questions were and are more worries,
> 
> my point was that shes already put them together and therefore its advice she needs now.
> 
> ...


No, I think she was referring to the birds.


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## miniloo (Feb 7, 2011)

siberiankiss said:


> No, I think she was referring to the birds.


thank you i hope thats what she ment


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

miniloo said:


> b3rnie was this aimed at me, cos the answer is no, i got all the info or as much as i could and i had a breeder mentor who sadly died last week, she was there when i put them together and i had hoped that she would be there at the birth, my questions were and are more worries,
> 
> my point was that shes already put them together and therefore its advice she needs now.
> 
> ...


No it wasn't aimed at you at all, that is why I quoted first


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## Pinkchi (Feb 5, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> I have read the posts and if you loved them you wouldn't breed them imo


You hit the nail on the head there it would seem.

I love each and everyone of my pets but not ONCE has it ever crossed my mind to breed any of them. No, instead they have all been spayed & neutured to prevent such things happening to my babies.

I would NEVER consider breeding, let alone from indivuduals with an unknown background PLUS the fact that you have no proper homes waiting is very poor imo


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## miniloo (Feb 7, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> No it wasn't aimed at you at all, that is why I quoted first


oops looks like my dyslexia getting the better of me i read it as if you ment that i was just wanting cute babies. hehe must learn to read better


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Pinkchi said:


> You hit the nail on the head there it would seem.
> 
> I love each and everyone of my pets but not ONCE has it ever crossed my mind to breed any of them. No, instead they have all been spayed & neutured to prevent such things happening to my babies.
> 
> I would NEVER consider breeding, let alone from indivuduals with an unknown background PLUS the fact that you have no proper homes waiting is very poor imo


I could have written this myself, it sums up about most everything I feel about breeding irresponsibly :thumbsup:

Well said


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

tobyneilson said:


> Hi
> My mum decided to try and breed the hamster's we have got, we put them together for three nights in a row, on the first night it looked like some action took place,the other nights they just checked each other out and waqndered around the cage
> Anyhow,was just wondering how long before a hamster starts to show,ie gets fat and nipples start to show?
> Because would like baby hamsters and if she is not pregnant will try again but not sure how long to wait.
> It was about 1 n half week since put them together


 Do you know how many hasmters there are already waiting for ever homes in rescue due to people needlessly breeding them??

So dont breed your hamsters.. Cause you can find babies on many sites free or for a few pennies.. its costs far more to bring up babies than it does to go and buy another..


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## Myth (Apr 5, 2009)

First off I haven't read the WHOLE thread just the first 3/4 pages.
Siberian ? I'm assuming Syrian hamsters ?

Whatever the species of hamster an hour or so on Google sifting through all the information out there would have been a good thing to do before considering breeding.

You got them from a breeder at an auction ?
Can only assume it was not from an NHC registered breeder. If it were you would have pedigrees for the hamsters showing their family tree, and the breeders contact details - should you have any questions/concerns or need for advice such as you are asking for here.

If they are Syrian Hamsters and you put them together and supervised you would have seen them mate. If you left them unsupervised I'd advise not to do it again as you'll have been lucky that both are still in one piece come morning.

Gestation period for Syrians is 16 days.
Most begin to show weight gain around 7-10 days after mating.
Mum-to-be will benefit from added protein in her diet.
Clean out a day or two before litter arrives and provide plenty of food and nesting material and basically disturb as little as possible for a couple of weeks, other than food and water leave her to it.

If you need any specific advice feel free to PM.
Right or wrong what's done is done.


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

PurpleCrow said:


> Do you know their background? Where did you buy them from?
> 
> Do you know anything about hamster genetics, colouring and the dangers of mating certain colourings together?
> 
> ...





tobyneilson said:


> Purple crow,there are better ways to ask,you came acroos as very condecending and know-it-all


Am sosrry hun but she has EVERY right to spak to you like she did. She was not rude...so far the only one who has come on here and been rude is you.  She has a right to be condecending(sp) to someone who...after reading your posts...has no interest in breeding to improve bloodlines and create healthy stock for you have got hamsters with no known genetic history or ancestry and yet are determined to breed.

There are so many hamsters on classifieds sites by people the same as you....want cute babies and potential profit at the end.

Let me blow away the myth that there is any profit in this for you. The cost of housing, cleaning materials, decent substrate (NOT saawdust), food, toys and treats for EVERY member of the litter will outweigh any real profit. Cost me near £100 to set up my first hamster.

If it is for cute babies then go to a rescue and see if you can foster any.

There are also plenty of hamsters up for adoption cos badly bred hamsters...which yours will be...are hard to sell on.

Am sorry hun but with no paperwork AND knowledge then that would make the "breeder" a BYB (back yard breeder) and people have the right to advise/express opinion against this.

I have adopted a few litters of rodents but am not prepared to offer advice if there is a chance she could still be not pregnant. So I urge you not to breed these hamsters again. Look into rescues. Even just havee a walk around and see how many unloved hamsters there are in there


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

im sorry but breeding is NOT a decission to be taken lightly, and you do not sound like you are breeding in the animals best intrests, if you really want to breed have a look at these, these are a couple of the hamters i have taken in, who should not have been brought into this world, both their parents appear healthy, we aquired the whole lot in a big rescue we did

all of these had genetic, neurological issues and also diabeties

chaance
*put to sleep at just 10 weeks old *


















baby
*his whole body just shut down at just 14 weeks old*


























sassy
*her brain shut down and she fell into a deep coma and died at just 15 weeks old *


























these are the result of people breeding who know nothing about the genetics of the animals they are breeding

could you live with yourself, if you ended up bringing the likes of these poor little ones into the world?


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Lil_Miss that is heartbreaking!!!


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

Hmm, Pendle Pets isn't a shop I would go to. I agree with Shetland Lover that Ideal Pets (I think that's what it's called), is better, and is also the pet shop that we use occasionally.

I wouldn't say that Clitheroe is really that rural to be honest, as there are a lot of normal people with normal houses, and is close to other big towns, so I don't see why hamsters would need to be auctioned, rather than taken to a bigger town to see if you could find homes...


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## Sarah+Hammies (Jul 20, 2009)

Lil miss those pictures are absolutely heartbreaking  Those poor hammies.


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