# New Goldfish :)



## StephMarie92 (Jan 23, 2009)

Hi.
I'm sixteen and reasonably new to goldfish keeping.
I've had a few in the past, but none for quite a few years.
I went to Pets At Home, and bought a pink tank.
I brought it home and put it in a suitable space, following all directions. 
I then washed the ornaments, plant, filter, gravel and the tank itself and placed them inside.
It took me a while to fill it up, using jugs of tap water, it is only 17 litres.
It isn't cloudy at all, the filter is working really well, and there are little bubbles everywhere. However, when I lift up the feeding hatch and smell, it smells a bit like chlorine. I've put some Gold's TapSafe in there and a thing called Cycle, is there anything else I can do?
I'm going to buy two Fancy Fish tonight and don't really want to put them in there if it is unsafe. 
Any advice would be gratefully received as I'm rather clueless..
Thankyouuu


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## MattDe (Dec 15, 2008)

Hey 

Congrats on your new tank.

I don't think 20l is big enough for goldfish, they need big tanks and large filters. You will end up having to clean you filter and change water every few days. also the goldfish will out grow the tank quite soon.
I would buy a heater and add that to the tank and go down the tropical fish route. You can get a fair few tropical fish for that tank, keep them small, get a load of shrimp. 

Fish to think about 

dwarf corydoras
cherry shrimp
Endlers


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Hi you need to leave a new tank running with no fish in for at least 3 weeks,during that time add a little food to help establish filter,also some tryzym bio start,when tank has been running for 3 weeks add i fish per week,or you could end up losing them 2 small goldfish will be fine in your tank,they wont get bigger than the tank


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## MattDe (Dec 15, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> 2 small goldfish will be fine in your tank,they wont get bigger than the tank


Sorry cant agree with that statement, fish growing to their size of tank is a myth.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

MattDe said:


> Sorry cant agree with that statement, fish growing to their size of tank is a myth.


yep- my dad had 4 goldfish in a tank, and had to move them to a much bigger tank as they all grew far to big... from teeny 1.5 inch goldfish bought from a pet shop, to 5 inch great big huge things! Lol

I also was gonna say (like mat said) tropical fish might fit in there better, if you got a heater. get some neon tetras or guppies, i had a tank that size in my flat once and all I had in it were a few guppies, they are very pretty.

x


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## StephMarie92 (Jan 23, 2009)

Thankyou for your oppinions 
Very much appreciated.
Well I took my water to be tested, and it's perfectly safe.
Went to a small pet store owned by a family friend, and he sold me two beautiful fancy fish and some glowfish for my big tank of tropicals downstairs. 
They are really active, and seem very happy in eachothers company.
Let's hope its okay.
And yeah, I know what you mean about the tank, but the fancy fish I had a few years ago were fine in my old tank which was also 17ltrs, because I emptied half of it out a week and replaced it, and they only got fed every 1-2 days as the water became contaminated. Other than that, they were easy to manage . Also, my mum has a 96ltr tank, my dad has a 35ltr, my little brothers have a 17ltr each and we have a few in the shed, so if I need to move them, I have a lot of options thankfully lol.
x


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

i got a couple of fancy fantail goldfish and they havent really grown much at all in 3 years


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

the only advice i have is to not use cycle or anything like it and let the tank mature naturally, it will take about 4 weeks, the fish will normally get used to the tank water going bad and while they wont feel well, it will pass then after 4 weeks you can pretty much do what you like to it as long as you clean your filters in old tank water. if you continue to use cycle your filter will depend on it and if you forget one week your filter could crash and possibly kill the fish. also will work out cheaper not using it, dont forget that shops(we dont seem to think this way lol) are there to make money so they are going to sell you stuff like that. I dont see alot of point in it myself.

*Heidi*


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

StephMarie92 said:


> Well I took my water to be tested, and it's perfectly safe


Your water tested as 'safe' because no ammonia has been introduced to it. Once you add fish that are producing lots of waste, the ammonia levels will go up and the water will more than likely become toxic.

I have to agree with MattDe, your tank is far too small for even a single goldfish, let alone two 



StephMarie92 said:


> the fancy fish I had a few years ago were fine in my old tank which was also 17ltrs


May I ask how long those fish lived for?


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2009)

A few pieces of advice.

1) The fish growing to the size of their tank theory is a myth. If the fish don't grow much after a few years it is usually due to stunting, which is usually caused by poor water quality.

2) Goldfish need a large tank with a good filtration system, the fancy varieties need at least 40 litres per fish and the common varieties need at least 80 litres or better still a pond. If you get a heater the tank would make a nice home for a small group of Microrasboras and some Amano shrimp.

3) Always cycle your tank without fish, if you use fish to cycle the tank they will be exposed to the high levels of ammonia and nitrite produced during the cycling process. Provide a source of ammonia to kick-start the cycling process by using another source of ammonia such as fish food or bottled household ammonia from a supermarket or chemist. To monitor the cycle you will need a test kit (available from an aquatic store), only add the fish to the tank once the ammonia and nitrite both read 0ppm on the test kit.


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## StephMarie92 (Jan 23, 2009)

Once again, thanks .
And I had my fancy fish for about 2-3 years.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Fancy goldfish can and should live for 10 years or more, and grow to 6-8 inches long (excluding tail). They are active, messy fish and if you want yours to live to a grand old age you really should think about getting them into a bigger tank


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

we explain the maturing process in a tank like this. if you live in a normal clean house and you go to stay with someone who has a filthy house the first thing you get is an upset stomach, they dont because they have got used to it. its the same with a fish tank in its first month. as long as you keep the stock levels low, the fish that are in there will get used to it and can deal with it as it builds up, they wont feel great but they will be ok. if you introduced a fish that had not been exposed to it in the middle of the month then they would almost certinally die within half hour. doing a very regular 10%water change throughout that will dilute it and make the fish feel better. then make sure the filters are not cleaned under the tap.
as to using household ammonia to mature the tank, it is not fish safe tested, there are different bacteria that work on different ammonia's and i would not suggest it! if you want to mature your tank without fish(which is not really nessesary) use cycle or stress zyme because they actually are designed for fish!

*Heidi*


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

hazyreality said:


> as long as you keep the stock levels low, the fish that are in there will get used to it and can deal with it as it builds up, they wont feel great but they will be ok


Only if you keep a really, really close eye on water quality, otherwise the fish could well get very ill and die. It sounds like you're saying that it's ok to keep fish in potentially toxic water because they'll "get used to it" :frown:



hazyreality said:


> as to using household ammonia to mature the tank, it is not fish safe tested, there are different bacteria that work on different ammonia's and i would not suggest it!


It is perfectly safe to use household ammonia to cycle a tank, indeed its far safer for the fish than using them to cycle a tank. Surely its better to make the tank safe _before_ adding fish, rather than risk killing your fish by putting them into an uncycled tank?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

hazyreality said:


> as to using household ammonia to mature the tank, it is not fish safe tested, there are different bacteria that work on different ammonia's and i would not suggest it! if you want to mature your tank without fish(which is not really nessesary) use cycle or stress zyme because they actually are designed for fish!
> 
> *Heidi*


Commercial cycling products such as Nutrafin cycle or API stress zyme aren't as effective as ammonia for cycling a tank as they usually contain the wrong type of bacteria. Bottled household ammonia (9.5%) is perfectly safe for cycling an aquarium. I generally stick to this formula when dosing a tank with ammonia: Desired tank ammonia level/ (Ammonia concentration % (from the label) x 10/tank volume in litres) = Amount of household ammonia to add in ml.

If you need this explaining in more detail just send me a PM.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Pleccy said:


> Commercial cycling products such as Nutrafin cycle or API stress zyme aren't as effective as ammonia for cycling a tank as they usually contain the wrong type of bacteria. Bottled household ammonia (9.5%) is perfectly safe for cycling an aquarium. I generally stick to this formula when dosing a tank with ammonia: Desired tank ammonia level/ (Ammonia concentration % (from the label) x 10/tank volume in litres) = Amount of household ammonia to add in ml.
> 
> If you need this explaining in more detail just send me a PM.


I'm gonna have to agree to disagree, having worked at a specialised aquatics centre for the past few years, and working with a man that has owned that aquatic centre for 38 years, I would never suggest it, and my boss(the owners son now) was shocked at the idea aswell but everyone has their own ways on doing things. As my older boss used to say: read all the books, and web pages, listen to everyone, then forget it and make your own mind up! 
I'll stick to maturing it with a few healthy hardy fish every time. Unlikely but maybe at a push with cycle or stress zyme as I think the filters get dependant on these products.
I am glad though that you have found that it works for you, and obviously you will continue to do so as it has caused no problems.

*Heidi*


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2009)

hazyreality said:


> I'm gonna have to agree to disagree, having worked at a specialised aquatics centre for the past few years, and working with a man that has owned that aquatic centre for 38 years, I would never suggest it, and my boss(the owners son now) was shocked at the idea aswell but everyone has their own ways on doing things. As my older boss used to say: read all the books, and web pages, listen to everyone, then forget it and make your own mind up!
> I'll stick to maturing it with a few healthy hardy fish every time. Unlikely but maybe at a push with cycle or stress zyme as I think the filters get dependant on these products.
> I am glad though that you have found that it works for you, and obviously you will continue to do so as it has caused no problems.
> 
> *Heidi*


I know that everyone is allowed an opinion however cycling a tank with fish isn't normally recommended, the high levels of ammonia present in the water during the cycling process can stress or even kill relatively hardy fish. The ammonia is only used for the cycling process and the ammonia used is a relatively weak concentration, by the time it is broken down by the filter there will no ammonia present in the water and usually a small water change is carried out at the end of the cycle to remove any small traces of the ammonia.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

magpie said:


> Only if you keep a really, really close eye on water quality, otherwise the fish could well get very ill and die. It sounds like you're saying that it's ok to keep fish in potentially toxic water because they'll "get used to it" :frown:
> 
> It is perfectly safe to use household ammonia to cycle a tank, indeed its far safer for the fish than using them to cycle a tank. Surely its better to make the tank safe _before_ adding fish, rather than risk killing your fish by putting them into an uncycled tank?


yes the tank *will* be toxic but it will settle and at the end of the day, i cant think of a single customer that we have that has had a problem with the idea. i also cant think of a single customer that would wait for 4 weeks before they put a single fish in their tanks. some of them want fish the same day(which i spose i better add we will not allow). we also find that we refuse to sell them fish and they go to the other 2 aquatics centres near us, dont tell them about the status of their tanks and buy fish without being questioned! they come back to us when they have problems. we also offer a free water testing service so they can monitor their tanks.
if the fish are healthy and hardy there is no reason to think that they will die. some fish including siamese fighters and gourami's have evolved to live in toxic dirty water, and so they can now air breathe, making them a hardy fish.

everyone has their own idea's and this is mine and the view our shop takes, i appeciate if everyone has different ones. use what works for you.

*Heidi*


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Pleccy said:


> I know that everyone is allowed an opinion however cycling a tank with fish isn't normally recommended, the high levels of ammonia present in the water during the cycling process can stress or even kill relatively hardy fish. The ammonia is only used for the cycling process and the ammonia used is a relatively weak concentration, by the time it is broken down by the filter there will no ammonia present in the water and usually a small water change is carried out at the end of the cycle to remove any small traces of the ammonia.


obviously you cannot agree to disagree but i will not change my mind on this, so i shall carry on giving the advice we give everyday, and what we see works everyday. i will continue to mature my tanks the way i have been told by someone that has been doing it for a very long time. and i would like to add that i have 3 personal tanks at home and i never lost a single fish throughout the maturing process. i've made my argument for my point of view, but i dont expect you to change your ways, please dont expect me to change mine.

*Heidi*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

You can cycle an aquarium with fish in it, but its better to use fish that are fairly hardy. I'm sure I read you already have tanks running in the house so why not take water from those. Tank cycle has already been done for you then.


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## King dog (Feb 12, 2009)

Iam very glad that you got gold fish


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

hazyreality said:


> yes the tank *will* be toxic but it will settle and at the end of the day, i cant think of a single customer that we have that has had a problem with the idea. i also cant think of a single customer that would wait for 4 weeks before they put a single fish in their tanks. some of them want fish the same day(which i spose i better add we will not allow). we also find that we refuse to sell them fish and they go to the other 2 aquatics centres near us, dont tell them about the status of their tanks and buy fish without being questioned! they come back to us when they have problems. we also offer a free water testing service so they can monitor their tanks.
> if the fish are healthy and hardy there is no reason to think that they will die. some fish including siamese fighters and gourami's have evolved to live in toxic dirty water, and so they can now air breathe, making them a hardy fish.
> 
> everyone has their own idea's and this is mine and the view our shop takes, i appeciate if everyone has different ones. use what works for you.
> ...


Hon, all I know is that since Ive had my fish Ive been on a fair few fish & aquarium forums and Ive yet to come across a single experienced person who recommends cycling a tank with fish. Ive also seen more people than I can count coming onto those forums after owning their fish for a few weeks or months, who have sick and dying fish, and it inevitably turns out that the fish have ammonia poisoning because the tanks werent cycled fishlessly beforehand.

If you and your customers have never lost a single fish that way then fair enough, you must be doing something right. Personally though, Id never recommend someone cycle a tank with fish - cause its no fun to lose your new pets after only owning them for a few weeks (which I _know_ could easily happen), and I dont think its fair to subject fish to live in dirty water just because someone is too impatient to wait a couple of weeks for the tank to cycle.

But as you say, each to his own.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2009)

magpie said:


> Hon, all I know is that since Ive had my fish Ive been on a fair few fish & aquarium forums and Ive yet to come across a single experienced person who recommends cycling a tank with fish. Ive also seen more people than I can count coming onto those forums after owning their fish for a few weeks or months, who have sick and dying fish, and it inevitably turns out that the fish have ammonia poisoning because the tanks werent cycled fishlessly beforehand.
> 
> But as you say, each to his own.


Well said, this might also be of some interest, Frequently asked questions on fishless cycling | Practical Fishkeeping magazine.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

magpie said:


> Hon, all I know is that since I've had my fish I've been on a fair few fish & aquarium forums and I've yet to come across a single experienced person who recommends cycling a tank with fish. I've also seen more people than I can count coming onto those forums after owning their fish for a few weeks or months, who have sick and dying fish, and it inevitably turns out that the fish have ammonia poisoning because the tanks weren't cycled fishlessly beforehand.
> 
> If you and your customers have never lost a single fish that way then fair enough, you must be doing something right. Personally though, I'd never recommend someone cycle a tank with fish - cause its no fun to lose your new pets after only owning them for a few weeks (which I _know_ could easily happen), and I don't think its fair to subject fish to live in dirty water just because someone is too impatient to wait a couple of weeks for the tank to cycle.
> 
> But as you say, each to his own.


ok, i give up on this debate. i've lost count of the times i've said agree to disagree so i think i should just carry on doing what i've been doing that has worked and the same to you and pleccy and end the debate here? we/I also dont agree with alot of what practical fishkeeping have to say now, all the winners etc are the ones that pay the most, will never buy a copy of it. also sorry to steph for taking over her post 
*Heidi*


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Pleccy said:


> Well said, this might also be of some interest, Frequently asked questions on fishless cycling | Practical Fishkeeping magazine.


Hehe! I recently emailed that link to my sister who's never had fish before, but I've given her my old goldfish tank as she wants to put tropicals in it - its a good article


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2009)

hazyreality said:


> ok, i give up on this debate. i've lost count of the times i've said agree to disagree so i think i should just carry on doing what i've been doing that has worked and the same to you and pleccy and end the debate here? we/I also dont agree with alot of what practical fishkeeping have to say now, all the winners etc are the ones that pay the most, will never buy a copy of it. also sorry to steph for taking over her post
> *Heidi*


I don't buy the magazine very often or any other PFK merchandise for that matter, despite this I won a D-D 28g HQI nano tank with a cabinet worth £500 a couple of months ago.


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