# Looking for Kittens/Breeders



## Sunrider (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm hoping to get a Persian kitten some time within the next year or so, but I'm having so much trouble finding breeders I'm happy with. Being a breed prone to PKD, I'm set on finding a breeder who has their cats tested, but many people don't even mention PKD testing on their websites which really worries me. I would think that shouldn't be something I have to ask about, but rather something they would mention on their site due to how important it is.

I've been searching high and low and have found a couple of good breeders, however, I'm wondering if I've gotten carried away with my search and made things unnecessarily complicated for myself.

So I suppose my question is, how would you go about finding a breeder/kitten? And would you see it as a red flag if the breeder didn't readily state that they test for common diseases etc?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If the kitten's grandparents are PKD negative there is no need to test the parents. Also not everyone that PKD tests or has cats from PKD negative parents, grandparents etc. will mention it on their website, though I feel they should. I'm not sure there is any other health testing required for Persians.

We have some Persian breeders here, I imagine they will give you a lot more information.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Also not everyone that PKD tests or has cats from PKD negative parents, grandparents etc. will mention it on their website, *though I feel they should*.


I'm not sure I would. I have a website but it's fairly simple, I didn't use it as a sales platform and I probably updated it once every three or four years. The only important information on it is contact details which lead to a phone call during which I'm happy to answer any questions.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Sunrider said:


> I'm hoping to get a Persian kitten. I've been searching high and low and have found a couple of good breeders, however, I'm wondering if I've gotten carried away with my search and made things unnecessarily complicated for myself.
> 
> So I suppose my question is, how would you go about finding a breeder/kitten? And would you see it as a red flag if the breeder didn't readily state that they test for common diseases etc?


As a Persian breeder I think that websites should clearly state what tests breeders do on their breeding cats. I would personally be put off by any Persian breeders website that didn't state somewhere that they are a PKD negative cattery.

Although it isn't necessary, all my cats are DNA tested for both PKD and PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) regardless of the fact their parents are tested clear. I like to have the paperwork to show to kitten buyers with the kitten's parents names on.

Make sure you are at least shown a copy of the PKD clearance paperwork before you buy a kitten (some breeders give photocopies of these along with the kittens paperwork). I'm afraid that there are still breeders out there who will sell kittens from untested lines and people are still getting caught out.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> <snip>
> 
> Make sure you are at least shown a copy of the PKD clearance paperwork (some breeders give photocopies of these along with the kittens paperwork) before you buy a kitten. I'm afraid that there are still breeders out there who will sell kittens from untested lines and people are still getting caught out.


If the cats themselves were not tested but it was the parents, grand parents, great-grand parents etc. then the breeder may well not have copies of the PKD DNA or ultrasound tests.

The Persian PRA DNA test is far newer.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> If the cats themselves were not tested but it was the parents, grand parents, great-grand parents etc. then the breeder may well not have copies of the PKD DNA or ultrasound tests.


Most breeders clear tested cats from yonks ago are listed on the FAB register, which is online and can be viewed by anyone regardless of who owned the cats. I personally would not buy from anyone who is not able to prove their cats are clear of PKD. Plus as the test is available for the princely sum of just £26-£33 I'd question why they haven't bothered to get proof for the cats in their cattery!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I'd expect copies of test results to have been handed down to each breeder, or breeders re-test themselves to have their own proof. An online health registry is also a great tool.

I like websites that are current, include health info, breed info, photos of the cats, kittens or upcoming litters and a bit about the breeder so you can gather information before possibly wasting time making phone call after phone call.

There may be a Persian or Longhair cat club that can help direct you to a good breeder, or shows in your area you could go and chat with breeders in person.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> As a Persian breeder I think that websites should clearly state what tests breeders do on their breeding cats. I would personally be put off by any Persian breeders website that didn't state somewhere that they are a PKD negative cattery.


Do your breed club lists state it? I'm interested because my breed club list includes very good breeders who don't have websites and I'm wondering if this would also put you off ie are you saying you wouldn't trust any breeder unless they a. had a website and b. stated certain information on it?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I'd expect copies of test results to have been handed down to each breeder
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


I would as well, but I know how awful with paperwork and websites some breeders are.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> Do your breed club lists state it? I'm interested because my breed club list includes very good breeders who don't have websites and I'm wondering if this would also put you off ie are you saying you wouldn't trust any breeder unless they a. had a website and b. stated certain information on it?


The Persian clubs I'm a member of all say that you should ask the breeder for details of the PKD status of the parents of your prospective kitten and only consider purchasing a kitten from PKD negative parents. In fact I have a feeling that proven PKD negative status is now needed before silver Persians can be registered as Active with the GCCF.

I'm not saying I wouldn't contact a breeder who doesn't have a website, but if a breeder does have a website and they didn't state if they test their cats and run a negative cattery on it, then I would pass them over for a cattery which does.

I've even had my Birmans tested for PKD because they have Persian ancestry, and I think I am the only breeder in the UK to have done so.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but I know how awful with paperwork *and websites *some breeders are.


Is this an age/generation thing? The last thing I'd consider important in a breeder is their website. I'm not saying I don't consider testing to be important but a website/the internet isn't what I'd put my trust in.


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

havoc said:


> I'm interested because my breed club list includes very good breeders who don't have websites and I'm wondering if this would also put you off ie are you saying you wouldn't trust any breeder unless they a. had a website and b. stated certain information on it?


Coming purely from a buyers perspective, yes I would be put off by no website or a website with little or no info on it, or one that hadn't been updated in years. Most of my research into my chosen breed was done by internet so the websites were all I had to go on to begin with. If I liked what I saw there then I made contact.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Coming purely from a buyers perspective, yes I would be put off by no website or a website with little or no info


Did you consider this to be of greater importance than reputation?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

There is no getting away from the fact that life these days seems to be revolve around the internet. I have personal experience recently of two people who were looking for BSH kittens in a specific geographic area. I passed on to them the details of two breeders, mentioning that they were highly reputable, caring breeders with some beautiful cats.

Neither recommendation was followed up because, I quote, "the web sites are poor/not up to date".


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm particularly interested because I've had so much to do with people who have had bad experiences which we, as a breed club, can do nothing about. I'm sure most people would carry out further checks but there's no doubt more and more do regard websites as some sort of gospel truth. If it's the filter of choice then it isn't a reliable one.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I'm particularly interested because I've had so much to do with people who have had bad experiences which we, as a breed club, can do nothing about. I'm sure most people would carry out further checks but there's no doubt more and more do regard websites as some sort of gospel truth. If it's the filter of choice then it isn't a reliable one.


My heart sometimes sinks when I hear the words "they have SUCH a lovely web site"


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Sadly it's almost 100% who tell us they were attracted by a 'professional looking' website. Everyone says they'd done their 'research' and a little digging reveals it was entirely internet based. I do understand it would be the first place to look but I lose sympathy with those who find the breed club lists or were given recommendations and still go elsewhere.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> Did you consider this to be of greater importance than reputation?


Hmm reputation is an interesting one though isn't it and depends entirely on who you ask. A friend will say "Yes they are good breeders and they have lovely cats" whereas someone who can't stand you, and lets face it in the cat world there are plenty of these, will say "No you don't want to go there, try these other people instead".

What I will say is that if a breeder has got a website and it is poor or very out of date, it would leave me wondering if they go about breeding in a similar slapdash manner. If you have a website it is your 'shop window' if you will. It is what you use to show off your cats, your breeding and your success. When I was seeking new bloodlines to bring into my breeding, the breeders website (and facebook if they were on it) was a hugely useful tool as it helped me to see if the kittens they produced were consistent.

Like it or not, these days life is becoming more and more electronic gadget based, if you fail to keep up with this you will simply get left behind. People are used to doing everything online now. I'm in my late 30's so not a kid but I am still surprised when I come across breeders that can't even be contacted by email!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Hmm reputation is an interesting one though isn't it and depends entirely on who you ask.


I think we're talking about different things really. Obviously individuals will recommend their own friends. That's a completely thing from being on a breed club list. It's at club level that problems become known and quite often where disgruntled buyers turn when things go wrong. It is amazing how often I hear they've chosen to buy from a non member rather than a member because of a glitzy website and the comments on this thread confirm that's what matters to kitten buyers - until something goes wrong.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> I think we're talking about different things really. Obviously individuals will recommend their own friends. That's a completely thing from being on a breed club list. It's at club level that problems become known and quite often where disgruntled buyers turn when things go wrong.


Yeah but then membership of a club doesn't mean the person is a decent breeder, in fact clubs are only too keen to point this out! No checks are ever made, and at the end of the day all you have to do to get on a club breeder list is pay a yearly fee ...



havoc said:


> It is amazing how often I hear they've chosen to buy from a non member rather than a member because of a glitzy website and the comments on this thread confirm that's what matters to kitten buyers - until something goes wrong.


It's like buying a house. I'm sure most people have heard that 'a house is sold within the first 10 seconds'. That is because first impressions are important. If a website is someones first impression of a breeder then a poorly maintained, badly laid out one with blurred photos will give a poor impression no matter how good the breeder may actually be.

The age of the computer illiterate is almost at an end. Everyone from my age and younger turn to the internet first when searching for anything. Fail to keep up at your peril


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> Fail to keep up at your peril


I would agree with that for the most part. The downside, for the prospective purchaser, is that so many of them use nothing more to critically evaluate a breeder than a professional looking web site and the claims it makes.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The age of the computer illiterate is almost at an end. Everyone from my age and younger turn to the internet first when searching for anything. Fail to keep up at your peril


That's a fair enough comment if you're describing a website as a necessary business tool - which I believe it is but I'm not running a business. It would be interesting to know if buyers believe a slicker website gives a sense of professionalism and indeed if its that aspect which attracts them.


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

havoc said:


> Did you consider this to be of greater importance than reputation?


No, but how do you find out their reputation when you know no one to ask? Who would be a reliable source to tell you these things? And reputation for what, showing, or breeding happy, healthy, well-socialised kittens? The latter was our priority, although we also wanted a breeder who did show as there were some breeders who bred for colours and not type, and we didn't like the look of those cats so much.

I started by finding some breeder websites I liked, which showed they went to shows in the same town I lived in and asked if they would be at the next one so I could meet them and have a chat. And then it all went from there.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> That's a fair enough comment if you're describing a website as a necessary business tool - which I believe it is but I'm not running a business.
> <snip>


I'm not running a business either, but that doesn't preclude taking a business-like approach to finding homes for my kittens. I think that doing so makes finding them good homes easier.

So, I run what I hope is an attractive website and when I have kittens or show successes I keep it up to date.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm not trying to decry any of that. Being on the other side of investigating complaints it's made me wonder if the increase in complaints and, more to the point, the increase in buyers' assumptions that they are dealing on a business footing is affected by the quality of a website. It isn't something which I'd thought of before though I have seen it mentioned in complaints and dismissed it. There's a part of me now wondering if it will become a grey area. I have known of councils which claim the existence of a website is evidence of a business when they want a breeder to apply for planning permission. There are things which breeders are advised not to include on websites for this reason.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I do judge a breeder slightly based on their websites. Making a website is very easy these days so why not? I like that I have some idea what to expect (pictures of the cats, tests they have gone for, show results, what their expectations are etc). I don't really trust just the phone because to me, that's just words (no proof).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> <snip>
> 
> I have known of councils which claim the existence of a website is evidence of a business when they want a breeder to apply for planning permission. _There are things which breeders are advised not to include on websites for this reason_.


Go on, do tell us!


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

Absolutely, and I think Tigermoon knows about that only too well unfortunately. I know many breeders do put 'hobby breeder' on their website, not that that would count for much I guess.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sunrider, to get back to your original question, yes, I'd be worried if I saw a website which didn't mention the appropriate health tests. Like Tigermoon, I test all of mine for PKD and PRA, and I do this with any cat I plan to breed from regardless of the PKD clear status of the parents. Why? Because I know of at least one person who has had a false positive from a PKD test, and if you can get false positives then you can also get false negatives. You ask for a retest if you get an unexpectedly positive cat, but how many of us will demand a retest when we get the all clear? I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I'd say that you should give your breeders a ring and have a long chat with them on the phone. Go with your gut instinct initially, and then let that be backed up when you see the conditions the cats live in. I have an open door policy and, if I know folks are serious about having one of my kittens, will often invite them down before kittens arrive so they can meet my clan and decide whether they like what they see without the "must have that cute kitten" factor in the mix to distract them. I don't know of other breeders who do this, but it works for me as I can then be sure the addition of a kitten has really been thought through, and they're reassured and can make an informed, non-pressured decision about whether I'm the right breeder for them.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Good breeders will be transparent about what they do and won't try to hide or gloss over details.

I don't think you can be too picky when deciding on where to have a kitten from to be honest.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> I'm not trying to decry any of that. Being on the other side of investigating complaints it's made me wonder if the increase in complaints and, more to the point, the increase in buyers' assumptions that they are dealing on a business footing is affected by the quality of a website. It isn't something which I'd thought of before though I have seen it mentioned in complaints and dismissed it. There's a part of me now wondering if it will become a grey area. I have known of councils which claim the existence of a website is evidence of a business when they want a breeder to apply for planning permission. There are things which breeders are advised not to include on websites for this reason.


Ho yes I remember this from a few years back! It quickly died a death though once the incomings and outgoings where investigated I believe. But I remember the 'do not have these words on your website' days.

To be honest I think that the vast majority of kitten buyers believe that we are businesses anyway. Nearly all think we are rich because we are selling kittens for hundreds of pounds each. They don't see the other side so make assumptions based on their knowledge from the rest of life.

It could become a grey area I suppose, but then again in a world where it is increasingly becoming if you are not online you are no-one I'm not sure how relevent it will be in deciding if something is a business or not.

Very interesting topic though I must say, particularly as we are getting the views from a wide age range  We have rather gone of topic for the OP though, maybe we should start a new thread in Cat Chat?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Go on, do tell us!


There isn't one simple tale, they're all different because all councils tend to go in on different tacks and for different reasons. Some stem from complaints from neighbours about noise or the amount of traffic to a property, some stem from outside runs in gardens, some just seem to be started by council officers for their own reasons. Some of the time they attempt to apply the rules on dog breeding. Once they've decided to target a breeder the existence of a website is always mentioned.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Ho yes I remember this from a few years back! It quickly died a death though once the incomings and outgoings where investigated I believe. But I remember the 'do not have these words on your website' days.


I think you're remembering the HMRC blitz. Interestingly the fact that HMRC admits most breeders are not a business means nothing if another body chooses to decide you are - mad hey.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> I think you're remembering the HMRC blitz. Interestingly the fact that HMRC admits most breeders are not a business means nothing if another body chooses to decide you are - mad hey.


Ah yes that was the one. It was in Wales wasn't it?

Funnily enough it would appear that Trading Standards don't consider cat breeding a business either, but councils are a law unto themselves


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't think we can assume anything general. Each case is decided individually so Trading Standards in one area could take up a case and use every little thing which they believe will strengthen their position. There is more and more which I could see being used. When you think back to a time when contracts weren't heard of and the internet didn't exist there was little to suggest business activity. All very different now.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

A fair few people who enquire about my kittens most definitely, until I point out otherwise, think of 'me' as a business. Having a web site to "showcase" (hate that word, can't think of an alternative currently) my cats and the kittens I have available has certainly changed the way people perceive who I am and what I do. 

Prior to the internet age, I was never asked questions such as "what are your opening times?; are you open at weekends?; do you accept Paypal/credit cards?; do you sell things I will need such as litter trays, food, etc?".


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Prior to the internet age, I was never asked questions such as "what are your opening times?; are you open at weekends?; do you accept Paypal/credit cards?; do you sell things I will need such as litter trays, food, etc?".


Oooer! I've not been asked any of those yet except for the paypal/bank transfer one. I have had people call me and ask about my kittens, then an hour later ring me saying "we are now in your town can we have directions to find you" despite having made no prior arrangement or even indicated that they wanted to visit, and a friend of mine had people just turn up on the doorstep! :yikes:



havoc said:


> There is more and more which I could see being used. When you think back to a time when contracts weren't heard of and the internet didn't exist there was little to suggest business activity. All very different now.


I don't remember that time. In the 15 years I've been breeding there have always been contracts and websites. I just followed the example made by other breeders   I'm not sure what we can do to guard ourselves in an increasingly litigious society.


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

If you go onto neutered pedagree cat UK I know there is a lady on there that have them she's put that they have been tested negative if that helps xxx


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> Oooer! I've not been asked any of those yet except for the paypal/bank transfer one. I have had people call me and ask about my kittens, then an hour later ring me saying "we are now in your town can we have directions to find you" despite having made no prior arrangement or even indicated that they wanted to visit, and a friend of mine had people just turn up on the doorstep! :yikes:


I suppose being asked about Paypal isn't SO bad as it's widely used and relatively safe (I think, is it?! Not that I use it for anything other than Amazon or Ebay). Bank transfer I don't mind at all but it does amuse me, the thought of sitting here with a chip and pin terminal.

The only time I've experienced folk turning up unannounced was a lovely, retired couple last year. They had already visited and chosen their kitten but thought it was alright to drop in three (yes, three) times when they happened to be passing. They were SO nice I didn't have the heart to say anything despite that on two occasions the house and me looked a shambles.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Bank transfer I don't mind at all but it does amuse me, the thought of sitting here with a chip and pin terminal


I have been asked if I took card payments. I love bank transfer, much prefer it to being handed cash. I'm probably one of few is (and always was) happy with a cheque.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm not sure what we can do to guard ourselves in an increasingly litigious society.


There's very little ever reaches that stage at present though there's a lot of hot air blown about  Most breeders can cope with the odd disgruntled buyer and when necessary refund for a returned kitten if there's good reason. It's the confusion over what buyers believe they're dealing with and what breeders believe their status to be which I can see growing as breeders _appear_ more and more business like.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I have been asked if I took card payments. I love bank transfer, much prefer it to being handed cash. I'm probably one of few is (and always was) happy with a cheque.


I would much prefer a cheque but fewer and fewer people seem to be using them. I guess a bank transfer (my second choice) would give me the same info?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

wyntersmum said:


> If you go onto neutered pedagree cat UK I know there is a lady on there that have them she's put that they have been tested negative if that helps xxx


You'd better put the URL in, from your browser window. 'neutered pedigree cat UK' is far too vague.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> There's very little ever reaches that stage at present though there's a lot of hot air blown about


Fingers crossed ... !!



havoc said:


> It's the confusion over what buyers believe they're dealing with and what breeders believe their status to be which I can see growing as breeders _appear_ more and more business like.


So I guess the question is, do we all close down our websites now, stop using contracts, and perhaps take cash only in order to make us look like what we are, people quietly producing kittens in our own homes?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> There isn't one simple tale, they're all different because all councils tend to go in on different tacks and for different reasons. Some stem from complaints from neighbours about noise or the amount of traffic to a property, some stem from outside runs in gardens, some just seem to be started by council officers for their own reasons. Some of the time they attempt to apply the rules on dog breeding. Once they've decided to target a breeder the existence of a website is always mentioned.


I meant about this phrase:



> There are things which breeders are advised not to include on websites for this reason.


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## Nicholas86 (Feb 5, 2015)

Sunrider said:


> I'm hoping to get a Persian kitten some time within the next year or so, but I'm having so much trouble finding breeders I'm happy with. Being a breed prone to PKD, I'm set on finding a breeder who has their cats tested, but many people don't even mention PKD testing on their websites which really worries me. I would think that shouldn't be something I have to ask about, but rather something they would mention on their site due to how important it is.
> 
> I've been searching high and low and have found a couple of good breeders, however, I'm wondering if I've gotten carried away with my search and made things unnecessarily complicated for myself.
> 
> So I suppose my question is, how would you go about finding a breeder/kitten? And would you see it as a red flag if the breeder didn't readily state that they test for common diseases etc?


I have only just recently brought my own website which is not a free webs one was brought very cheaply too. 
I shall be updating my website every month its not posh its just put upcoming updates ect.

When i shall have my first litter all of my kittens will be PKD & PRA tested all paper work will be given to the new owner regaurding tests. 
Daisy Show but not yet fully completed properly at the moment.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Nicholas86 said:


> <snip>
> When i shall have my first litter all of my kittens will be PKD & PRA tested all paper work will be given to the new owner regaurding tests.
> Daisy Show but not yet fully completed properly at the moment.


Before you have kittens both parents should be tested. Personally if they are clear I'd be happy to buy a kitten untested.

Edit: Just had a quick peek at the website, you don't say who you will register the kittens with, and there are some bloopers in the test which need fixing.


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## Nicholas86 (Feb 5, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> Before you have kittens both parents should be tested. Personally if they are clear I'd be happy to buy a kitten untested.
> 
> Edit: Just had a quick peek at the website, you don't say who you will register the kittens with, and there are some bloopers in the test which need fixing.


I do know that, not fully updated and running yet though will be very soon.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I meant about this phrase:
> 
> Quote:
> There are things which breeders are advised not to include on websites for this reason


Ah, sorry. The obvious one is price.


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## Sherrysmum (Nov 13, 2016)

Hi, I appreciate this is an older thread but I was wondering if there is anyway to find breeders of Persians in preferably Norfolk or Suffolk, I am more than willing to travel I am just worried about that first journey in a car with kittens. I have been the very proud mum of three persians over the last 18 years, we had to the have our girl (17 years and 8 months) put to sleep in May and whilst I miss her every second of every day I am starting to get to a stage where I would like to think about bringing another two persians into our family (the house is too quiet with just me and my husband). I have looked on the internet and have found 3 breeders but is there any other way of finding breeders, I want to do the research and find good breeders so that my kittens will hopefully have the best start in life. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

The only way is either by chatting to people who know them or by going and visiting. I breed Persians myself, so if I can be of any help, do let me know.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I would much prefer a cheque but fewer and fewer people seem to be using them. I guess a bank transfer (my second choice) would give me the same info?


I only have one cheque book, very few new bank accounts come with a cheque book, if I need to write a cheque I have to transfer money from another bank account to the one with the cheque book.

My two purchases have been with cash.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> You'd better put the URL in, from your browser window. 'neutered pedigree cat UK' is far too vague.


I think it's a facebook page, I used to look at it,


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