# HELP! Dog with major separation anxiety and crying every morning 5am!



## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

I have a 9 month old French Bulldog Harvey. He has severe separation anxiety, if left alone or even senses he will be left alone, he starts shaking, panting, crying and howling, he is a nervous wreck who has urinated and fouled on the sofa or floor, he won’t eat or drink and sometimes even vomits with stress. When we return he is totally erratic, panting, running around in circles, jumping up at us and whines at us. This goes on for 20 minutes before he calms down.

That is very hard to deal with but what is worse is he cries every morning at 5am and it is totally exhausting. This has been going on for around 10-15 weeks. Before that he would cry ALL NIGHT and pee and poop everywhere, then it “improved” to waking and crying every hour, and now we are at this stage where the crying starts every morning at 5am, and there has been no improvement. He will not stop until someone goes in.

I had a behaviourist come and she suggested I wake up before him so that he learns I go to see him whether he cries or not. After a week of success I can change the time to 15 minutes later, and the same for the following week etc. In theory, this is a good idea, but in reality it is totally draining and tiring waking up at 4.30 to start my day, and it seems to have made Harvey want to wake up even earlier.

What can I do to stop him crying at this time in the morning? Should I totally ignore it and refuse to go in there until I actually need to at 7am? To me this seems silly because all I’ll be doing is lying in my bed for 2 hours listening to him cry, which is of course upsetting and stressful.

Should I go in when he cries?

Should I change where he sleeps? (we do not want him to sleep in our room as he will never learn to be apart from us and in the long run this won’t help the SA. He also snores so this will keep us awake all night anyway.

I just want to train him to sleep to a reasonable time (7-7.30 ish) and to NOT cry when he wakes up. I've not had a single night proper sleep since I've had him (6 months).

HELP! REALLY DESPERATE NOW!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

How Dark is the room where he sleeps? Its not uncommon for puppies to wake at this sort of time when it gets light at 5am. The light can wake them, both my pups were late spring/summer pups and as the days got lighter earlier they would wake earlier and earlier. Making the room darker if you can with black out blinds or curtains may help. If he sleeps In a crate then often putting the back against a wall facing away from the window and covering the top and two sides can sometimes help.

Other then this the best way normally is to wean them off you gradually. I have had all my pups sleep within sight and sound at first, but at the same time, introduce into their daily routine periods of being alone, starting with very short periods even literally for a few minutes and then build up the time. Things that can help them settle, are having an adaptil plug in diffuser that emits an artificial version of the pheromone mum emits to calm and soothe her pups. See link below for details. Other old tricks to help pups settle was to leave an old t shirt or something you have worn I their beds, so that they still have your smell for comfort and security. Pups also often sleep touching I the litter, so putting In an old soft toy, can help some to cuddle up too for security. Instead of leaving them in silence, often a radio turned down low on a talk type station can help as the murmur of voices is more comforting rather then silence and it can detract from other sudden noises too. Also when you start the alone training its often a good idea to leave them with something to self amuse and make a good association, like a safe chew, or a stuffed kong or a Kong wobbler which you can fill with kibble. Shutting them away with a solid closed door can be too isolating, so they often do better confined with a baby or dog control gate.

The idea is that you begin, when they have had some activity a walk or training/play session so they should be more tired, have gotten rid of excess energy and be more ready to settle. You set up the area as above and leave them with something to self occupy. At first you may only be able to leave them for a minute or two as you must return before, they become really stressed and vocal. You also leave saying and doing nothing, and return in the same way, let them out, but continue to ignore them completely for another minute or two, and then call them and give them lots of praise and fuss. The idea is that you then as they begin to relax build up the time in tiny increments a little at a time . You start all this inititally while you are there.

http://www.adaptil.com/uk

You could if you haven't already crate train him and while you are doing the alone training sessions let him sleep in your room at first. If they have never seen or been in a crate you will have to ensure that the crate is introduced and he is trained to accept it and see it as a place of relaxation and security first.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Thank you for all your advice. I really hate to sound negative, but I promise you I have tried EVERYTHING you have suggested above. Adaptil made no difference whatsoever, he's even on Zylkene now and I can't see any improvement. I've had him 6 months and gone through every trick possible such as leaving radio/tv on, leaving my jumper/pyjamas with him so it smells of me, leaving him a stuffed kong or chew; he is so nervous and anxious he won't even take a second look at it, if I leave a stuffed cuddly toy for him he chews it and shreds it out of anxiety so its a complete mess and almost dangerous with all the stuffing available for him to inhale or choke on. Ignoring him when I go back in the room makes him more erratic because he is so desperate for me to acknowledge him and at least say hello or offer a little comfort. I know not to make a big fuss over him when I return (not to make my return a big deal) but if I ignore him completely and do other things he gets very upset and will even pee next to me out of desperation.

I agree, the waking so early and crying might be because daylight is coming in. I can't really put up black out blinds as it is not my property (renting), but maybe I could find some way of blocking the light.

I just want him to not cry in the morning. it's very stressful being woken up to that sound so early in the morning. 
I'm not sure if its a matter of weaning him off me as such.. because he is happy to go to sleep in that room and won't make a panicking fuss when we leave the room ourselves to go to bed, but the issue is him waking up and panicking so the crying starts at 5am. I'm at the end of my tether. Nothing has worked. It's very draining  I'm worried this will go on forever now


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Have a chat with your vet about Selgian. I've had to put my old dog on it. After many years of being absolutely fine about me going out, he started to panic at even the thought of me leaving.
While he will be on it for life, a young dog should hopefully only need to be on it for a few months just to settle them. It hasn't made my old boy dozy at all and he still worries occassionally, but I was on the point of PTS because of his distress and it's kept him relatively level for 9 months now

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/selgian.407417/


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Rhianbear said:


> I'm not sure if its a matter of weaning him off me as such.. because he is happy to go to sleep in that room and won't make a panicking fuss when we leave the room ourselves to go to bed, but the issue is him waking up and panicking so the crying starts at 5am. I'm at the end of my tether. Nothing has worked. It's very draining  I'm worried this will go on forever now


Have you tried a crate in your bedroom?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Rhianbear said:


> I have a 9 month old French Bulldog Harvey. He has severe separation anxiety, if left alone or even senses he will be left alone, he starts shaking, panting, crying and howling, he is a nervous wreck who has urinated and fouled on the sofa or floor, he won't eat or drink and sometimes even vomits with stress. When we return he is totally erratic, panting, running around in circles, jumping up at us and whines at us. This goes on for 20 minutes before he calms down.
> 
> That is very hard to deal with but what is worse is he cries every morning at 5am and it is totally exhausting. This has been going on for around 10-15 weeks. Before that he would cry ALL NIGHT and pee and poop everywhere, then it "improved" to waking and crying every hour, and now we are at this stage where the crying starts every morning at 5am, and there has been no improvement. He will not stop until someone goes in.
> 
> ...


Not sure who told you this but this is wrong information. The best way to AVOID separation anxiety developing is to not put them in the position to be anxious in the first place when they are young and impressionable. The easiest way to do this is to have them sleep in your room. Unfortunately many people make the mistake of allowing a puppy to cry in the hope that they grow out of it, when actually all they have done is cement in the puppies mind that being left alone is indeed a terribly anxious thing, and for many dogs this fear becomes a learned habit.

Why not try him in your room? my youngest is almost 9 months and has never had the slightest inkling of separation anxiety, because she was conditioned to see being left alone as something highly rewarding, and overnight has always had company.


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## Laney_Lemons (Mar 23, 2016)

Can you bring him upstairs in the morning time? put him in his bed on the floor so as he can see you but not on the bed itself? then start to gradually move him further away from you over a period of a few weeks :/ not sure if this would make it worse and he would start to waken up earlier thou to get upstairs..... I would honestly do anything for a good nights sleep thou.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

labradrk said:


> Not sure who told you this but this is wrong information. The best way to AVOID separation anxiety developing is to not put them in the position to be anxious in the first place when they are young and impressionable. The easiest way to do this is to have them sleep in your room. Unfortunately many people make the mistake of allowing a puppy to cry in the hope that they grow out of it, when actually all they have done is cement in the puppies mind that being left alone is indeed a terribly anxious thing, and for many dogs this fear becomes a learned habit.
> 
> Why not try him in your room? my youngest is almost 9 months and has never had the slightest inkling of separation anxiety, because she was conditioned to see being left alone as something highly rewarding, and overnight has always had company.


I could try putting him in or near our room but I am worried he will revert backwards and struggle even more to ever be apart from us. I'm reluctant to put him in our room after he's woken us up crying at 5am because I don't want him to see this as a reward or that he gets what he wants when he cries. It's a tricky one. Do you think if he slept where he could see us his separation anxiety would reduce in all areas (night time, during the day or early evening if we go out?). Maybe we could trial him sleeping in his bed on the landing outside our bedroom, blocked by a baby gate? If we put him in our room, he just jumps up onto our bed, it would be an all night struggle to get him to sleep on the floor!


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Elaine2016 said:


> Can you bring him upstairs in the morning time? put him in his bed on the floor so as he can see you but not on the bed itself? then start to gradually move him further away from you over a period of a few weeks :/ not sure if this would make it worse and he would start to waken up earlier thou to get upstairs..... I would honestly do anything for a good nights sleep thou.


I really am desperate to just have a normal nights sleep. I've had him since December and not had ONE single normal night's sleep since before I had him. It's incredibly draining and I feel like I never know if I'm doing the right thing or not! I wouldn't want him to learn that every time he cries I go running to him and put him in our bed. Not sure that really solves the morning crying issue either.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

You could try giving him a good walk, lots of play and training during the day, let him run about, tire him right out. Then let him sleep in his crate in your room. He will be comforted by being able to see you and knowing your near, you can move him gradually away. It may help with the day time s/a as he gets to be with you more, even if it is to sleep.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

labradrk said:


> Not sure who told you this but this is wrong information. The best way to AVOID separation anxiety developing is to not put them in the position to be anxious in the first place when they are young and impressionable. The easiest way to do this is to have them sleep in your room. Unfortunately many people make the mistake of allowing a puppy to cry in the hope that they grow out of it, *when actually all they have done is cement in the puppies mind that being left alone is indeed a terribly anxious thing, and for many dogs this fear becomes a learned habit.*
> 
> Why not try him in your room? my youngest is almost 9 months and has never had the slightest inkling of separation anxiety, because she was conditioned to see being left alone as something highly rewarding, and overnight has always had company.


I WISH I knew this 2 years ago 
Muttly now sleeps in our room, because he hates being alone all night. (Which is what I wanted in the first place but OH wouldn't have it, until he was left with no choice).
He also isn't to happy being left in the day either, don't let your pup learn this too.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Rhianbear said:


> I could try putting him in or near our room but I am worried he will revert backwards and struggle even more to ever be apart from us. I'm reluctant to put him in our room after he's woken us up crying at 5am because I don't want him to see this as a reward or that he gets what he wants when he cries. It's a tricky one. Do you think if he slept where he could see us his separation anxiety would reduce in all areas (night time, during the day or early evening if we go out?). Maybe we could trial him sleeping in his bed on the landing outside our bedroom, blocked by a baby gate? If we put him in our room, he just jumps up onto our bed, it would be an all night struggle to get him to sleep on the floor!


Yeah, but it's worth it.
Muttly started in the kitchen when we first got him, after a few months he scratched constantly, so then we let him have the whole downstairs with a babygate at the bottom of the stairs, ok for 10 months, then started crying and rattling the gate. So put him in our room in a crate (he whined and panted to come out), so about 6 weeks ago we put a babygate on our bedroom door to confine him to our room and he has his bed on the floor next to me.

Yes, there have been many nights of broken sleep, telling him to get down off the bed. But now mostly he sleeps all night on his bed. I sometimes wake up and he is snuggled up to me, but hey.

It should be easier for you to start the right way right now, as a pup. Muttly was in his 3rd home, was 8 months old and it's taken us until he's 2 and a half to get to a place we are all happy and sleeping soundly at night.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Rhianbear said:


> I could try putting him in or near our room but I am worried he will revert backwards and struggle even more to ever be apart from us. I'm reluctant to put him in our room after he's woken us up crying at 5am because I don't want him to see this as a reward or that he gets what he wants when he cries. It's a tricky one. Do you think if he slept where he could see us his separation anxiety would reduce in all areas (night time, during the day or early evening if we go out?). Maybe we could trial him sleeping in his bed on the landing outside our bedroom, blocked by a baby gate? If we put him in our room, he just jumps up onto our bed, it would be an all night struggle to get him to sleep on the floor!


To be honest if he is as bad as you say then he can't really revert back to anything - if you approach it in the right way, he can only go forward. When I say keep him in your room, I mean all night, not just bringing him up after he is already showing the anxiety.

Have you considered getting a behaviourist in to help formulate a behavioural modification program for him? the overnight woes should helpfully be solved by keeping him in your room. The problems when you go out will obviously need to be approached differently, and I suggest getting someone who guide you through this in person.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2016)

Rhianbear said:


> I could try putting him in or near our room but I am worried he will revert backwards and struggle even more to ever be apart from us. I'm reluctant to put him in our room after he's woken us up crying at 5am because I don't want him to see this as a reward or that he gets what he wants when he cries. It's a tricky one. Do you think if he slept where he could see us his separation anxiety would reduce in all areas (night time, during the day or early evening if we go out?). Maybe we could trial him sleeping in his bed on the landing outside our bedroom, blocked by a baby gate? If we put him in our room, he just jumps up onto our bed, it would be an all night struggle to get him to sleep on the floor!


The way to create a confident, secure dog, is to help them feel secure from the get-go. A dog who feels secure in his connection to his owner is not going to have issues with being left because they have confidence in their relationship with their owner. 
Every single puppy or new rescue we have ever brought in this house has slept in our bedroom to begin with. It also helps us teach the puppy sleep manners (you don't wake sleeping humans). We have never had issues with SA. The only time I dealt with SA was an adult dog who came to us with SA, and it resolved fairly quickly with no major heroics on our part. He too slept in our room.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Thank you all for your comments. I think for the next few weeks I will trial him in our room or at least near it where he can see us. What are your opinions on getting another dog? An older (3-4 years) calm laid back dog? I was thinking they might be a good influence on him and have a calming affect? Harvey is VERY hyper and playful throughout the day and sometimes does not know when to stop. Perhaps an older calmer addition might help him? What do you think? Of course I wouldn't rush into that as a soloution, but it's an option to think about and also lovely for dogs to be in pairs anyway.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2016)

Rhianbear said:


> Thank you all for your comments. I think for the next few weeks I will trial him in our room or at least near it where he can see us. What are your opinions on getting another dog? An older (3-4 years) calm laid back dog? I was thinking they might be a good influence on him and have a calming affect? Harvey is VERY hyper and playful throughout the day and sometimes does not know when to stop. Perhaps an older calmer addition might help him? What do you think? Of course I wouldn't rush into that as a soloution, but it's an option to think about and also lovely for dogs to be in pairs anyway.


The general rule is to not get another dog until your current dog's behavior and your relationship with him is where you want it. 
There is too much of a risk of the new dog developing the unwanted behaviors from the resident dog.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Rhianbear said:


> Thank you all for your comments. I think for the next few weeks I will trial him in our room or at least near it where he can see us. What are your opinions on getting another dog? An older (3-4 years) calm laid back dog? I was thinking they might be a good influence on him and have a calming affect? Harvey is VERY hyper and playful throughout the day and sometimes does not know when to stop. Perhaps an older calmer addition might help him? What do you think? Of course I wouldn't rush into that as a soloution, but it's an option to think about and also lovely for dogs to be in pairs anyway.


I think you will have more problems with your pup annoying the older calmer dog. The maybe having to separate them when you go out.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

yes that is very possible. Quite right - Work on Harvey first!


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## Laney_Lemons (Mar 23, 2016)

he looks like butter would melt


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Leaving him to cry certainly won't help him, only make him even more stressed and unhappy about being left. If he's as panicky as you say he is then quite honestly it seems pretty cruel to leave him the way people are often told  Have you read any of the Separation Anxiety sticky on here? There's a lot of good advice there (don't need to read the entire thread, it's huge lol). But in general the way of dealing with SA is not to leave the dog while they're unhappy about it, you need to teach them that it's okay to be alone and it can be a long, difficult process sometimes. I absolutely wouldn't get another dog in the hopes it would help with the problem, you could well just end up with 2 dogs with the same problem.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Elaine2016 said:


> he looks like butter would melt


HA indeed he does! but he is a hyper ball of frantic fuss! I think he has a lot to learn in his little life bless him.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Leaving him to cry certainly won't help him, only make him even more stressed and unhappy about being left. If he's as panicky as you say he is then quite honestly it seems pretty cruel to leave him the way people are often told  Have you read any of the Separation Anxiety sticky on here? There's a lot of good advice there (don't need to read the entire thread, it's huge lol). But in general the way of dealing with SA is not to leave the dog while they're unhappy about it, you need to teach them that it's okay to be alone and it can be a long, difficult process sometimes. I absolutely wouldn't get another dog in the hopes it would help with the problem, you could well just end up with 2 dogs with the same problem.


Yes I agree with you, sadly everything I've been told - from reading online dog training guides, reading books, speaking to dog owners etc, they all seem to go with the "leave him to cry it out" approach. Like its a one rule fits all. I think we need to go right back to basics as if it was our first week of having him. I will have a read through the other stuff on here. I just need to get this issue fixed, I cant continue being woken up at 5am every morning by frantic crying. its stressful and very sad for all of us.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

Firstly I want to agree with everyone (including yourself!) that getting a second dog could backfire so badly and give you two difficult -to-manage dogs.
Secondly, if he isn't crate trained yet, but you are prepared to have him in the bedroom, would it work to tether him via a harness to something so he can't jump on the bed? And you wear earplugs against his snoring? If tethering is a bad idea someone is sure to point it out promptly!
Thirdly, are thundershirts said to help something like this? I've never used one; again, it's just an idea I'm throwing in.
It sounds like a horrible time for you. I can see the logic of having wanted him to learn for himself how to be alone, but a different logic is needed.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

ouesi said:


> The way to create a confident, secure dog, is to help them feel secure from the get-go. A dog who feels secure in his connection to his owner is not going to have issues with being left because they have confidence in their relationship with their owner.
> Every single puppy or new rescue we have ever brought in this house has slept in our bedroom to begin with. It also helps us teach the puppy sleep manners (you don't wake sleeping humans). We have never had issues with SA. The only time I dealt with SA was an adult dog who came to us with SA, and it resolved fairly quickly with no major heroics on our part. He too slept in our room.


Sorry if I sound dim, but would you mind explaining why and how it will help him overcome his separation anxiety if he sleeps in our room at night? Won't this make him MORE dependant and clingy with us, because he will have no "practice" at being alone? If he's with my partner's parents all day, then with us all night in our room, surely he will find it incredibly hard to suddenly be on his own when we do need to go out and leave him, because he won't be used to it and it will be a big scary experience with suddenly no one there? Does this mean he will have to sleep in our room forever?


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

applecrumlin said:


> Firstly I want to agree with everyone (including yourself!) that getting a second dog could backfire so badly and give you two difficult -to-manage dogs.
> Secondly, if he isn't crate trained yet, but you are prepared to have him in the bedroom, would it work to tether him via a harness to something so he can't jump on the bed? And you wear earplugs against his snoring? If tethering is a bad idea someone is sure to point it out promptly!
> Thirdly, are thundershirts said to help something like this? I've never used one; again, it's just an idea I'm throwing in.
> It sounds like a horrible time for you. I can see the logic of having wanted him to learn for himself how to be alone, but a different logic is needed.


yes perhaps a thundershirt might work, not something I;ve tried yet, but pretty much tried EVERYTHING else; adaptil, leaving TV/radio on, leaving a cuddly toy with him (he destroys it through panic behaviour), leaving my pyjamas with him so it smells of me, blocking out as much light as possible, giving him loads of exercise, toileting him before bed, giving him a long-lasting stuffed kong or chew (he doesn't go near it!).... the list goes on, and still no improvement. Our vet has prescribed him a 3 week course of Xanax, but I'm really trying everything in my power to avoid giving him that. That really will be an absolute last resort.

Really appreciating everyone's advice  . Great to speak to other dog owners who have experience, not just read these "one rule fits all" dog training "manuals"!


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2016)

Rhianbear said:


> Sorry if I sound dim, but would you mind explaining why and how it will help him overcome his separation anxiety if he sleeps in our room at night? Won't this make him MORE dependant and clingy with us, because he will have no "practice" at being alone? If he's with my partner's parents all day, then with us all night in our room, surely he will find it incredibly hard to suddenly be on his own when we do need to go out and leave him, because he won't be used to it and it will be a big scary experience with suddenly no one there? Does this mean he will have to sleep in our room forever?


First off, a bit of whining in the morning or tearing up a toy does not mean your dog has separation anxiety. True SA is a very serious disorder where the dog shows a physical reaction such as excessive drooling, vomiting, shaking, elevated heart rate, and will harm themselves in an attempt to escape.

Most dogs like being with their humans and don't like being separated from them, that's totally normal. 
By building a secure relationship with your dog from the get go, you increase his confidence in all areas, including being separated from his humans. 
So you start by having the dog in the bedroom. Dog learns nighttime is for sleeping. Humans in bed means I go to sleep. You teach the dog cues like "lie down" or "go to bed" when he wakes up in the night, and eventually the dog learns that when his humans are in bed there is nothing exciting to do but sleep. 
In the meantime, during the daytime, you spend short periods where the dog spends time on his own and again he learns that it's not a big deal. You make him a good frozen kong and leave him to it while he's interested in that so he doesn't even notice you've been gone. Little by little you build this up, always returning to the dog before he has a chance to worry.
Eventually he will know that you always come back, he will be secure in the routine of you always coming back, and it won't matter if you leave him for 5 minutes or 5 hours.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

Havent read all the replies.

have you tried giving him a que for waking up? like you going in but using the alarm clock instead. Set a alarm for just before 5am and whgen it goes off go into him. Once hes settled on that time start setting the alarm later by 15minutes and waiting till hes settled on that before moving it later ect. Our when small are trained by the alarm and they know that no humans come to get them untill after the alarm has gone off then they will start to make a little noise. We never had them in the bedroom from day one and they have been fine with this method.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

ouesi said:


> First off, a bit of whining in the morning or tearing up a toy does not mean your dog has separation anxiety. True SA is a very serious disorder where the dog shows a physical reaction such as excessive drooling, vomiting, shaking, elevated heart rate, and will harm themselves in an attempt to escape.
> 
> Most dogs like being with their humans and don't like being separated from them, that's totally normal.
> By building a secure relationship with your dog from the get go, you increase his confidence in all areas, including being separated from his humans.
> ...


Thank you for clarifying.

I'm not sure if you read my original post, but I mentioned how serious his SA is. If left alone during the day for even 30 minutes, guaranteed I come back to a totally frantic dog pacing up and down and circling, diarrhoea and pee all over the floor, panting, shaking, fur shedding, he chews and gnaws at his paws causing sores, and on some occasions he even vomits. it's very sad and actually scary. The whining in the morning is just part and parcel of the bigger picture.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2016)

Rhianbear said:


> Thank you for clarifying.
> 
> I'm not sure if you read my original post, but I mentioned how serious his SA is. If left alone during the day for even 30 minutes, guaranteed I come back to a totally frantic dog pacing up and down and circling, diarrhoea and pee all over the floor, panting, shaking, fur shedding, he chews and gnaws at his paws causing sores, and on some occasions he even vomits. it's very sad and actually scary. The whining in the morning is just part and parcel of the bigger picture.


If his distress is that bad then it seems a bit cruel to leave him to it at night as well when you have the opportunity to stay with him and give him the whole night to not be stressed.

The more opportunities he has to practice being anxious, the better he will get at being anxious.
The more opportunities he has to practice feeling calm and secure, the better he will get at feeling calm and secure.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When we leave a pup downstairs and go up to bed, we sort of assume that the puppy knows it's night time, we are going to sleep and so should he.

He doesn't know that. All he knows is that we have suddenly disappeared and, being so young, he can become very afraid.

Every pup I've ever had, (and I've had a few), has slept in my bedroom from day one and I have never had a pup make any sort of disturbance through the night. They soon learn that they have to sleep until you're awake and moving. Not one of my dogs has ever been my alarm clock.

My present dog has the run of the whole house at night, including my bedroom, but she chooses to sleep in the spare bedroom.

She's fine at being left through the day, should the need arise, and she isn't clingy.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

ouesi said:


> If his distress is that bad then it seems a bit cruel to leave him to it at night as well when you have the opportunity to stay with him and give him the whole night to not be stressed.
> 
> The more opportunities he has to practice being anxious, the better he will get at being anxious.
> The more opportunities he has to practice feeling calm and secure, the better he will get at feeling calm and secure.


yes that does make sense. We thought he was improving as he is now sleeping through the night, but we just see to have hit a brick wall with his early morning waking and panicking/crying.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Sweety said:


> When we leave a pup downstairs and go up to bed, we sort of assume that the puppy knows it's night time, we are going to sleep and so should he.
> 
> He doesn't know that. All he knows is that we have suddenly disappeared and, being so young, he can become very afraid.
> 
> ...


That's really nice  I know that if Harvey had the run of the house he would sprint and dive-bomb into our bed! I think i'll work on him sleeping in our room, or at least near it so he can see and smell us.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

I just remembered something that my Granny used to say - "Baby him when he's a baby, and you won't have to baby him all his life". It must be frustrating for you when many dogs are fine with *not* sleeping in the bedroom, but they are all such individuals, like human babies. Remember that some new parents manage to get a good night's sleep within a few months while others have a hollow-eyed sleepless look for years.
Even if a small part of you still feels like you are being manipulated by Harvey, you really need to do whatever it takes to get some quality sleep yourself. The first priority is to work out how he can settle until a reasonable hour. Where he does this is something you can work on later!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Hows it going Rhian?


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

applecrumlin said:


> I just remembered something that my Granny used to say - "Baby him when he's a baby, and you won't have to baby him all his life". It must be frustrating for you when many dogs are fine with *not* sleeping in the bedroom, but they are all such individuals, like human babies. Remember that some new parents manage to get a good night's sleep within a few months while others have a hollow-eyed sleepless look for years.
> Even if a small part of you still feels like you are being manipulated by Harvey, you really need to do whatever it takes to get some quality sleep yourself. The first priority is to work out how he can settle until a reasonable hour. Where he does this is something you can work on later!


that is a great quote and very true! it is very hard having to deal with this early morning crying from him. It's going to be a long road. I must admit, I do worry he will do this forever.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Muttly said:


> Hows it going Rhian?


Hey! so I've now set up his bed area just on our landing/hallway just outside our bedroom. The first night he whined for about 10 minutes when put to sleep there (new area, not used to it)... BUT there was no crying in the morning!! This morning however, crying at 5am  I wonder if his body clock is just so used to waking up at that time.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rhianbear said:


> Hey! so I've now set up his bed area just on our landing/hallway just outside our bedroom. The first night he whined for about 10 minutes when put to sleep there (new area, not used to it)... BUT there was no crying in the morning!! This morning however, crying at 5am  I wonder if his body clock is just so used to waking up at that time.


What did you do when he cried?


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> What did you do when he cried?


I was hoping he would settle down as it wasn't his usual frantic crying, but after about 10 mins I went to him and let him in the bedroom. Was that right or wrong? I never actually know what to do when he cries. Some say ignore it (don't train him he gets a reward when he cries by getting me to go to him).... others say to comfort him (he needs reassurance etc).


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I just wonder if he might have settled had you told him gently to "settle"?

Perhaps he thought he was alone and was unaware you were nearby?

What did he do once you let him into the bedroom?


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

he jumped on our bed and had a roll around and licked us. he was there for a few minutes. then he jumped onto the floor and lay there grooming himself for quite a while. The problem I find when I go to him during his crying is that he goes very erratic when he sees me (sprinting up and down, going round in circles, jumping up) and it is quite hard to settle him. If the same happens tomorrow morning do you think I should just try to settle him (this could take 20 minutes) or just let him in our room where he quite quickly becomes calm. 

I would let him sleep in our room, but he snores very loudly, is a wriggler, and won't stay in his own bed on the floor but will jump into our bed and won't move! Then NONE of us get any sleep! I was thinking to buy a baby gate and have him sleep on the landing with our door open, but baby gate closed, so he has full view of us and hopefully won't panic as he'll know he's not really alone? what do you think?


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2016)

Rhianbear said:


> he jumped on our bed and had a roll around and licked us. he was there for a few minutes. then he jumped onto the floor and lay there grooming himself for quite a while. The problem I find when I go to him during his crying is that he goes very erratic when he sees me (sprinting up and down, going round in circles, jumping up) and it is quite hard to settle him. If the same happens tomorrow morning do you think I should just try to settle him (this could take 20 minutes) or just let him in our room where he quite quickly becomes calm.
> 
> I would let him sleep in our room, but he snores very loudly, is a wriggler, and won't stay in his own bed on the floor but will jump into our bed and won't move! Then NONE of us get any sleep! I was thinking to buy a baby gate and have him sleep on the landing with our door open, but baby gate closed, so he has full view of us and hopefully won't panic as he'll know he's not really alone? what do you think?


You could invest in a white noise machine (about $20 on amazon), bring him in your bedroom and either use a crate to keep him off the bed, or start teaching him cues like "off" and "bed" (his bed) and to settle. You would practice these cues during the day, so they're not foreign to him when you use them at night.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I'd be inclined to use a gate so the door is open so he can hear you (but not necessarily see you) but you aren't disturbed by his snoring 

When he wakes at 5 and starts whining you can tell him (from your bed) to "settle" or "back to sleep". Hopefully, knowing you are close by will help him settle down again.

Failing that, teach him to settle on his bed in your room in the morning. It sounds like he was very pleased to realise you hadn't left forever this morning 

Did you rule out ear plugs?

I wear them every night because my OH has sleep apnoea and uses a machine which would disturb me. It also means I don't notice when Jack has a shake or stretch during the night.


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## Rhianbear (Jun 20, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> I'd be inclined to use a gate so the door is open so he can hear you (but not necessarily see you) but you aren't disturbed by his snoring
> 
> When he wakes at 5 and starts whining you can tell him (from your bed) to "settle" or "back to sleep". Hopefully, knowing you are close by will help him settle down again.
> 
> ...


I will get the baby gate, and will work on training him to "settle", although when he's so ecstatic to see me its very hard! I have earplugs... I feel bad using them to block out his crying though  suppose I could put them in when he comes into our room, to sleep in his own bed!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rhianbear said:


> I will get the baby gate, and will work on training him to "settle", although when he's so ecstatic to see me its very hard! I have earplugs... I feel bad using them to block out his crying though  suppose I could put them in when he comes into our room, to sleep in his own bed!


If you just speak to him from your room, rather than go to him it may be enough to reassure him he's not alone.

Yes, use the earplugs to drown out his snuffling and snoring once he is allowed to join you. (Or if you decide the only way of a good night's sleep is to let him sleep in your room! )

I wouldn't ignore the crying but take steps to reassure him so he has no need.

It's a bit " suck it and see" really. Whatever it takes. I'm sure it will click one day!


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

I suggested the earplugs to block out his snoring, not his crying! 
I think Supernanny on tv has a protocol for helping toddlers to settle in their rooms - something along the lines of first occasion you go into the room, speak gently, and stroke. Second time, a stroke, and the single word bedtime. Third time, just "bedtime". Then, just speak from the doorway without entering the room, and so on. The idea is a smaller and smaller response, so the child is reassured but not rewarded. And it avoids the risk of you lying there silently until you can't bear it any longer and then suddenly going to see him, which of course, reinforces the pattern of him crying for ages and finally getting what he wants. Can you tell with confidence when he is truly distressed, and when he is trying his luck? (Lots of parents can differentiate between different cries from their babies but as a non parent myself, it all sounds the same to me...)

Ouesi, I don't understand the use of a white noise machine?


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## AndrewBriggs (11 mo ago)

Hi Rhianbear,

Just wondering if you ever managed to get Harvey to stop crying at 5am every day, as our 10 month old frenchie has started doing the same?


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Hi, this thread is almost 6 years old. You'd be better off starting your own thread for advice 


AndrewBriggs said:


> Hi Rhianbear,
> 
> Just wondering if you ever managed to get Harvey to stop crying at 5am every day, as our 10 month old frenchie has started doing the same?


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