# What exactly ARE Animal Derivatives



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Can someone enlighten me?

I know they are supposed to be bad in a food, but I've been recently looking at the Butchers Superior real meat tins as Rupert's enjoyed one recently that I gave him to bulk his WW out a bit. The Butchers always goes down more favourably! 

There's no cereal, artificial colours, preservatives, soya, gluten in it either.

But it obviously has the dreded "derivatives" in it, but what does that mean?

Am I being really naive when I think that all offal is classed as a derivative?

:confused1:


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

Not the finest cuts of meat to put it bluntly

a pleasnt mix of things like eyeholes,earholes and bumholes

more here....

UK dog foods - Ingredients, meat and animal derivatives definition


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

hyper Springer said:


> Not the finest cuts of meat to put it bluntly
> 
> a pleasnt mix of things like eyeholes,earholes and bumholes
> 
> ...


So stuff that would get minced if mincing a whole carcass then?


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2010)

bone, fur, guts, hooves, everything that the amimal ends up at the food manufaturers plae with! was told in the past that this could inlude body bags and any mediation/drugs in the system!! (It were the meat van that used to collect pts pets years and years ago) Also years ago if an animal horse, cow, whatever died in a field it too would go to the pet food manufaturers! But pretty sure this practise has stopped now!


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> So stuff that would get minced if mincing a whole carcass then?


Basically yes! but you have to remember a large proportion of the 'better' parts of the carcass could have gone to make the superior food, so what is left is purely the 'junk' and that is why I try to avoid them as a whole!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> bone, fur, guts, hooves, everything that the amimal ends up at the food manufaturers plae with! was told in the past that this could inlude *body bags and any mediation/drugs in the system!!* (It were the meat van that used to collect pts pets years and years ago) Also years ago if an animal horse, cow, whatever died in a field it too would go to the pet food manufaturers! But pretty sure this practise has stopped now!


I don't think they can do that know, pretty sure there was a law passed against it.



DoubleTrouble said:


> Basically yes! but you have to remember a large proportion of the 'better' parts of the carcass could have gone to make the superior food, so what is left is purely the 'junk' and that is why I try to avoid them as a whole!


Snigger, just like what goes into the standard McDonalds burger!!!


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't think derivatives are ideal, but I don't really see anything wrong with them. Obviously fresh meat is ideal, just as for ourselves fresh organic meat etc would be best, but we still eat beefburgers that aren't necessarily 100% meat 


Charlie loves Butchers puppy food, we mix 1/3 of a can in with his evening meal. I recently asked for advice on whether this was a good wet food but didn't get much help (with the exception of mum2heidi) so all I can do is assume it's ok. 

From what was on the shelf it was the one with the highest fresh meat content, despite the derivatives, it also had the least junk in like 'cereals', gluten etc. 

If your dog likes it, isn't becoming overweight or having any other health problems from the food then I say use it. :thumbup:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Helbo said:


> Charlie loves Butchers puppy food, we mix 1/3 of a can in with his evening meal. I recently asked for advice on whether this was a good wet food but didn't get much help (with the exception of mum2heidi) so all I can do is assume it's ok.


I used to feed it and then moved onto WW when I came on here, but to be fair he eats the Butchers with so much gusto. I had to give him a can the other week as the WW had run out.

I normally give him about 80% WW and 20% Royal Canin a day (although the WW he gets is a half a tub, well over the RDA and the RC on top as he's a very active dog, he was getting more but we cut down). But he was getting picky again yesterday so I put a spoon of Butchers puppy in and the whole lot went.

I'm beginning to think I might start giving him a little bit each day and cut back on the WW. 1/3 WW, a bit of Butchers and his RC. He gets fresh meat as well and his sardines, so I don't think a spoon or two of Butchers a day will kill him to be quite honest, as I'm not relying on it soley for nutrients.

I like to look at it as I do my crisps/jaffa cakes! I like a bag or 3 jaffas a day, but if that's all i ate I'd have issues! :thumbup:


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

I agree - I'm not relying on one food to provide my pup with all his nutrients. 

He eats a well-balanced dry food, as well as fresh food like fresh meat, carrots, probiotic yogurt or scrambled eggs...and his evening meal is a mix of dry and wet food just to stop him getting bored. 


I mean, if I had to eat bran flakes every meal I wouldn't be too happy after a while


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Probably clutching at straws here but dont they list the % of derivatives (cant remember for the life of me). If they do, then you will know how much is arse*oles compared to proper meat? Otherwise it could be mostly arse*oles. That said, they all love hooves?


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah they do list the % of derivatives on ingredients lists so you can see how much fresh meat is in. 


We give some disgusting animal parts to dogs for chews!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Helbo said:


> Yeah they do list the % of derivatives on ingredients lists so you can see how much fresh meat is in.
> 
> We give some disgusting animal parts to dogs for chews!


Do they? I've been looking on the internet and can't see the analysis for the stuff that I give him- Butchers Choice Trays or the Supreme Real Meat stuff. I should really read the back of the tins but I do get confudled at times.

And I agree, I mean Bizzle and Venison Tongue are amongst Rupert's fave chews that he gets and tripe sticks...and Sandie, you are right, he used to LOVE chewing on the horse hoove cuttings when the farrier had been.

Does make you wonder doesn't it?!

(feel ill now)!

Edit- Got the Supremen Real Meat Stuff:

Chicken, Duck and Vegetables: Meat and Animal Derivatives (Chicken min. 30%, Duck min. 4%, Fresh Meat min. 4%, Total Meat Content min. 40%),

Now does that mean that 30% of it is chicken derivatives, or that 30% of it is fresh?

I can't find an analysis of the Choice trays.


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

My friend so elequantly puts it - lips & a**holes  Mind you thats how she describes McDonalds, and things made with chicken beaks & a**holes :lol:

Here saying that has put me off so much food :eek6:


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Least it comes from an animal which may not be the case in a few years.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/6/1668S.full


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

gillieworm said:


> My friend so elequantly puts it - lips & a**holes  Mind you thats how she describes McDonalds, and things made with chicken beaks & a**holes :lol:
> 
> Here saying that has put me off so much food :eek6:


I actually don't care! I have McDonalds and what not that little anyway, when I do have it I bloody enjoy it, couldn't give a fig what it is made of!

Rupert had a lovely venison tongue and a tripe stick last night. He also enjoys cows ears, horse hoof and pigs ears and snouts.

Why not lips and arseholes to complete his culinary collection?! :thumbup:



sandymere said:


> Least it comes from an animal which may not be the case in a few years.
> http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/6/1668S.full


It'll have to catch on, just like the stuff with GM foods did. Those soon dissapearad!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

For more info also see here: PFMA - Pet Food Manufacturers Association - Pet Food

It is quite tightly regulated as to what can go into petfood. Just the amount of derivatives vs meat is the one element that differentiates one food from another.

GM foods are still very much about....


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Just had a brain wave - why dont you email the manufacturers of butchers and ask what % is derivatives?:thumbup:

_Chicken, Duck and Vegetables: Meat and Animal Derivatives (Chicken min. 30%, Duck min. 4%, Fresh Meat min. 4%, Total Meat Content min. 40%), _

I would say that is 30% proper chicken, 4% proper duck and the the 4% fresh meat of another source (possibly derivatives) Then it depends if they class derivatives as meat. If so it's minimal to make up the 40% meat. If not, could be up to 60%..... really dont know.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Just had a brain wave - why dont you email the manufacturers of butchers and ask what % is derivatives?:thumbup:
> 
> _Chicken, Duck and Vegetables: Meat and Animal Derivatives (Chicken min. 30%, Duck min. 4%, Fresh Meat min. 4%, Total Meat Content min. 40%), _
> 
> I would say that is 30% proper chicken, 4% proper duck and the the 4% fresh meat of another source (possibly derivatives) Then it depends if they class derivatives as meat. If so it's minimal to make up the 40% meat. If not, could be up to 60%..... really dont know.


Good idea, I could email them I suppose! Not got time now as am off out, but I can do it tomorrow, unless you're free and being the queen of food advice lines you could carry on and earn your crown! :thumbup:


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Basically, it has to come from human grade meat, so people assume it's going to be okay. Wrong.

As long as they use stuff DERIVED from human grade meat, they satisfy the guidelines. So after they've taken the stuff they want to sell to people, and they stuff for the decent animal foods, and the stuff for gelatine. They'll use the rest for crappy pet food, as it's still derived from human grade foods. So you'll get a lovely mixture of feathers, beaks, heads, feet, guts, lungs, hair, wool and even unborn eggs.

I realise these would all be eaten were the dog given the full chicken etc, but they'd also be getting all the decent cuts too, so the crap wouldn't be the only source of protein. It's the being the only source of protein that I assume people who dont feed derivatives (myself included) have issue with.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2010)

Lyceum said:


> Basically, it has to come from human grade meat, so people assume it's going to be okay. Wrong.
> 
> As long as they use stuff DERIVED from human grade meat, they satisfy the guidelines. So after they've taken the stuff they want to sell to people, and they stuff for the decent animal foods, and the stuff for gelatine. They'll use the rest for crappy pet food, as it's still derived from human grade foods. So you'll get a lovely mixture of feathers, beaks, heads, feet, guts, lungs, hair, wool and even unborn eggs.
> 
> I realise these would all be eaten were the dog given the full chicken etc, but they'd also be getting all the decent cuts too, so the crap wouldn't be the only source of protein. It's the being the only source of protein that I assume people who dont feed derivatives (myself included) have issue with.


Great way of putting it! have added some green gungy stuff in the form of REP to your list!:thumbup::thumbup:
lol
DT


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

_unless you're free and being the queen of food advice lines you could carry on and earn your crown!_

Naa you're ok thanks, will leave it to you. Dont like the sound of this green gungy stuff that's going around:scared: Do you think it's derivative based :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> _unless you're free and being the queen of food advice lines you could carry on and earn your crown!_
> 
> Naa you're ok thanks, will leave it to you. Dont like the sound of this green gungy stuff that's going around:scared: Do you think it's derivative based :lol:


Blinking sure it is! the red gunge is worse though! bet you ain't had none of that!


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Great way of putting it! have added some green gungy stuff in the form of REP to your list!:thumbup::thumbup:
> lol
> DT


Why thank you


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Oh God no!!! Now I'm really:scared:


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

Animal Derivatives will also include blood, bone-meal, cartilage and organs as well as reclaimed meat from bone but all are regulated by law now. If I remember rightly hoof and horn is no longer legal to use.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2010)

OllieBob said:


> Animal Derivatives will also include blood, bone-meal, cartilage and organs as well as reclaimed meat from bone but all are regulated by law now. If I remember rightly hoof and horn is no longer legal to use.


What about poo? know the stomach contents go in!


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Edit- Got the Supremen Real Meat Stuff:
> 
> Chicken, Duck and Vegetables: Meat and Animal Derivatives (Chicken min. 30%, Duck min. 4%, Fresh Meat min. 4%, Total Meat Content min. 40%),
> 
> ...


I would have read that as of the 40% total meat content, only 4% is fresh meat, the other 36% is derivatives however it is specifying where they come from (i.e. chickens and ducks instead of any animal they like).

But that doesnt sound right considering the title you gave it: Supremen Real Meat Stuff


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## HannahKate (Jun 6, 2010)

OllieBob said:


> Animal Derivatives will also include blood, bone-meal, cartilage and organs as well as reclaimed meat from bone but all are regulated by law now. If I remember rightly hoof and horn is no longer legal to use.


Just what I was going to say.
The chicken factory I visited sent all the heads and shanks (feet) off to Hungary for processing into dog food. Minging but true. The carcasses were to be stripped to make mechanically reclaimed meat products (salami and sausage i think rather than dog food.


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

Not only is it the unpleasant parts of animals like everyone else has mentioned. It can also be hosed down carcasses. They used to make Wall's ice cream this way. Get the meat off pig carcasses and then hose them down to get gelatine (I think) or something that made the ice cream softer.

I understand this is now common practice in dog food. Hose it down and then sweep whatever falls off into a big pit and grind it up. Yum... [email protected] treats in fancy Christmas packaging and we get charged a fiver per pack. Happy Christmas!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Dunno, 

To me it sounds like its a bit of a fuss to be fair. The dog would it it if in the wild, and providing its not the only source of protein the dog is getting (i.e. mine gets his Wainwrights and various other fresh meats etc) I can't actually see the harm in giving him the odd spoonful or tin as a treat as its blatantly obvious he prefers it.


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Dunno,
> 
> To me it sounds like its a bit of a fuss to be fair. The dog would it it if in the wild, and providing its not the only source of protein the dog is getting (i.e. mine gets his Wainwrights and various other fresh meats etc) I can't actually see the harm in giving him the odd spoonful or tin as a treat as its blatantly obvious he prefers it.


To be honest I agree. Wolves in the wild eat the entire carcass including smaller bones, fur etc. I don't believe it would harm the dogs, it is only protein after all but I don't like being charged extortionate prices for low standard ingredients in my dog's food so i never buy treats that have it listed as an ingredient.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Terr said:


> so i never buy treats that have it listed as an ingredient.


I do!

The reason being they are treats! Rupert enjoys them so he can have them as the odd one off!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I try and avoid them as much as I can but dont bust a gut over it.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I try and avoid them as much as I can but dont bust a gut over it.


Me too. I don't mind the odd treat, but it's not something I'd buy with regularity.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Lyceum said:


> Me too. I don't mind the odd treat, but it's not something I'd buy with regularity.


I don't mind. Its about £4 for a pack of 6, and one of them will last me a good 2 weeks, as he's only having a bit a day anyway. But, it really is amazing how fast his food goes down when I put the Butchers on as a topper, compareed to just the WW on its own. Debating if I should give him the Butchers for brekkie and his WW allowance at night. Although knowing him he'd stop eating the WW! Yesterday we stuffed a kong with the butchers for him, he went mental for it.

He had a load of mince last night as well as I was making a chilli so did him some seperately, good job he does so much exercise!

So all in all, I don't see the harm some derivatives are doing him, considering he's getting decent cuts of meat/food as his main staple diet.

:thumbup:


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## Susan clayton (Mar 10, 2016)

My dog loves butchers.. She was raised on the BARF diet when i had her as a rescue, but lately it has been giving her a dodgy tummy, so weaning her onto butchers wet and skinners kibble, so she can have best of both. Still give her veg too and friut, also cook get some fish sometimes.. To be honest she seems to be thriving on it. It's the only tinned she will even look at.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

?? thread is 6 years old!


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