# Training Rhuna



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I thought I'd start this thread to show a slightly different way of training pups, so many people seem to be trying to fast forward and train everything by the time their pup is six months old. 

So, a bit of background, Rhuna is now 16 weeks old (or thereabouts) she was born on 11 June 2011 and is a flatcoat retriever bitch. She's a bit of a thinker, has a lovely laid back temperament, and I brought her home two weeks ago.

So, what have wee been doing, well, nothing really. I've changed her name from Pippa to Rhuna, so the main focus has been on getting her to come to her name, and also associating that with the whistle. So far, not too bad, she is pretty obedient with the recall compared to other dogs we occasionally meet. I do treat her when she comes and sits nicely, and that's all I'm doing. I do take her on lead to the field next door, if it were a longer journey, I wouldn't bother, it's too early to instill heelwork with her, so for now I haven't once used the word so that I don't desensitise her to it. 

So, she knows her name, and she knows to sit nicely to be rewarded, that's all I want at this stage. The OH has done a couple of play retrieves with her, she is fine holding things in her mouth and bringing them to you, so that part's covered, we'll build on that later. 

Will update regularly with our progress


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## tiggerthumper (Apr 22, 2011)

This is going to be a good thread! I think people feel pressure to have a dog with perfect manners, super obedient etc. that they try to do too much at once, I know I feel the pressure anyway, you would think other dog walker's dogs came out of the womb perfectly trained the looks I get sometimes!
She sounds like she's doing brilliantly well!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

tiggerthumper said:


> This is going to be a good thread! I think people feel pressure to have a dog with perfect manners, super obedient etc. that they try to do too much at once, I know I feel the pressure anyway, you would think other dog walker's dogs came out of the womb perfectly trained the looks I get sometimes!
> She sounds like she's doing brilliantly well!


Completely agree with you, even so with adult dogs. I used to feel this with my two - I felt I was never douing enough for them when maybe I was pushing things too much 

SL - Am really looking forward to hearing about all Rhunas progress


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just a very quick update, Rhuna's still doing really well with recall and sitting, the two main things I'm focussing on, getting her nice and calm; although this morning, when the OH was sorting himself out to go to work, she accidentally got shut out with him, and it was lovely to be covered in ecstatic flatcoat when she got back in and found mum, I hope we can harness that enthusiasm for her retrieves later 

I was out on site for longer than I wanted to be today, and fully expected to find an accident or two when I got back, I was out for a total of about 4.5 hours, so was prepared to clean up when I got in, and apologise profusely to poor Rhuna, for leaving a youngster without a toilet break for so long. I was pleasantly surprised to find the three girls fast asleep, no accidents anywhere. Rhuna is uncrated now and doing so well! Fingers crossed we don't have any setbacks like big Aunty Tau did when she was initially uncrated and ate my designer leather jacket


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Glad you are doing this thread, will be reading with interest


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I think this is an interesting idea for a thread. So many people seem to expect so much from their babies and I always wonder if Terence should be better behaved.
My main focus is the nipping (still a work in progress, but he only does it now when he is "in the zone") and the recall (perfect in the house, and good with Indie and Tau around, but a bit hit and miss when we're out and about). Everything else is just a bonus. Terence is quite clever though (even if I do say so myself), so the extra obedience things help keep him occupied 
Are there any special things you do to keep Rhuna coming back when you do recall?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I think this is an interesting idea for a thread. So many people seem to expect so much from their babies and I always wonder if Terence should be better behaved.
> My main focus is the nipping (still a work in progress, but he only does it now when he is "in the zone") and the recall (perfect in the house, and good with Indie and Tau around, but a bit hit and miss when we're out and about). Everything else is just a bonus. Terence is quite clever though (even if I do say so myself), so the extra obedience things help keep him occupied
> *Are there any special things you do to keep Rhuna coming back when you do recall?*


No, not really, I try only to recall her when I know she won't ignore me, and as she comes in, I get her to sit nicely for a treat. If she doesn't come when I recall, then I go and get close enough to her to get a reaction, and get her to get it right, she's getting there


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, not really, I try only to recall her when I know she won't ignore me, and as she comes in, I get her to sit nicely for a treat. If she doesn't come when I recall, then I go and get close enough to her to get a reaction, and get her to get it right, she's getting there


I've started doing that as well, only calling him when I know he'll come back. Difficult bit is training the OH to stop jabbering on at Terence 
He's getting there with the recall, I think. He even came back at puppy class last week, even though one of the other puppies was really playing up and he was really looking at him, thinking "he looks like fun", but still came back for his hot dog (thanks for the tip  )
I've also introduced a zero tolerance approach when he nips me. Figured, it did the trick for the kids, so surely would work for me. I remove myself (or him) for a short while if he puts any pressure on. Already seen an improvement.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

One of the main things I've learnt over the short time I've owned dogs, is that training dogs isn't about cramming in as much as you can, it's about setting your dog up to get things right, not all dogs will achieve as much as others, and that's where learning how to work with a dog is so important. I love being with my dogs, as you probably will have gathered from the way Indie tries to get on my knee, and I love learning about them, and interacting with them.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

And who can blame you with your gorgeous dogs...

I have noticed that a lot of other puppy owners (for example in our puppy class) are constantly talking to their pups when they are so excited to see the other pups at the start. There will be like 20 "sit"'s, all unanswered, or "settle" 40 times. I never say anything, because I don't see the point. I just let Terence get it out of his system and then ask him to do something once and he usually listens. I've been made to feel bad because I am not trying to "control" my dog, as one guy so nicely put it. I said I don't see the point of asking him to do something I know he won't do, which kicked off a bit of a telling off for me.

So, I am ecstatic to hear that you are doing a similar thing, since I value your opinion and think your dogs are fab! :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> And who can blame you with your gorgeous dogs...
> 
> I have noticed that a lot of other puppy owners (for example in our puppy class) are constantly talking to their pups when they are so excited to see the other pups at the start. There will be like 20 "sit"'s, all unanswered, or "settle" 40 times. I never say anything, because I don't see the point. I just let Terence get it out of his system and then ask him to do something once and he usually listens. I've been made to feel bad because I am not trying to "control" my dog, as one guy so nicely put it. I said I don't see the point of asking him to do something I know he won't do, which kicked off a bit of a telling off for me.
> 
> So, I am ecstatic to hear that you are doing a similar thing, since I value your opinion and think your dogs are fab! :thumbup:


There's no point in telling your dog to sit 20 times, if it doesn't understand what you're asking. Ask once, if it doesn't do it, then you need to communicate better, and it's handler error, after all, which one of us has opposable thumbs and speech 

So in this instance, I'd say you're absolutely right! :thumbup:


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

so glad your doing this thread. colin is an intelagent boy and within a week of us having him got the sitting ok. then i moved onto sit and wait fir his dinner untill i tell him ok. now today i let him off his lead for the first time and when he started lagging behind or to far ahead id shout him and hed come but when we saw someone befor he did i put him back on the lead so he didnt get distracted and run off to them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

He's ahead of Rhuna then! Dinner time is just SO exciting, it's difficult to keep her in a sit for long, but we'll get there


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Terence sits very nicely for his food :thumbup: through no effort of our own though


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

B*gga, I almost feel like doing a crash course, but I'll restrain myself. I'm actually very pleased with Rhuna, she's not a bad pup, all things considered......

<<<<< runs off to practice paw, down, sit, stay, this side, that side, other side, other paw and as many tricks as I can think of, oh, and did I mention heelwork to music??>>>>>>


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought I'd start this thread to show a slightly different way of training pups, so many people seem to be trying to fast forward and train everything by the time their pup is six months old.
> 
> So, a bit of background, Rhuna is now 16 weeks old (or thereabouts) she was born on 11 June 2011 and is a flatcoat retriever bitch. She's a bit of a thinker, has a lovely laid back temperament, and I brought her home two weeks ago.
> 
> ...


See you do. Pete.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Any updates on Rhuna?
And we haven't seen any pics for a while :hand::hand:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

No updates for a reason, we're still concentrating on the basics, ie Rhuna recognising her name, and training that so she associates it with the whistle. I have a bit of a head start, as you know, Indie and Tau aren't that bad with the whistle, so, I feel the need for a few one to ones coming up. The OH has also decreed I get her heelwork sorted, so, as she has no heelwork, them one to one's will come in useful 

He's a lovely guy really, just can't wait until the basics are in place so he can take his first flattie out!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Haha, men 
And there I was, thinking you'd be choreographing your first heelwork to music piece


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The thing is, flatcoats are notoriously immature, so why rush things? Even if they seem good, and Rhuna's retrieving beautifully, why push it, when we can just wait, and let things develop. The breeding is in there it's just patience on our part, and I'm willing to wait because I think she's gonna be a great pup


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought I'd start this thread to show a slightly different way of training pups, so many people seem to be trying to fast forward and train everything by the time their pup is six months old.
> 
> So, a bit of background, Rhuna is now 16 weeks old (or thereabouts) she was born on 11 June 2011 and is a flatcoat retriever bitch. She's a bit of a thinker, has a lovely laid back temperament, and I brought her home two weeks ago.
> 
> ...


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

My brother in lawhas working dogs and sais he doesn't bother with any training until they are 6 months, he sais its pointless


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

well while oh took wynter to her kung fu class i took colin to the park. there was no dogs aroud so thought i would give it a go letting him off the lead lol
he was realy good, every time he was engrosed in sniffing id call him prob 2-3 times then her come running. when i saw somone id put him on the lead then off again when they had passed. then  hed go running round me eye wide open like a dog possesed lol. we then backtracked and when we got back to the lake thought ok let him off again lol then 
the lab in him came out and SPLASH mmmmm wet dog lol back on the lead.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Good on you sleeping Lion. Would that everyone had your savvy, I come across so many people who wont give their dogs time to be 'Pups. As you probably know I've two pups I'm bringing along at the moment, Flyte, My 'Goldie and Skye my span. Flyte is just 6 months and it's time now to start with his proper training. We've sorted out the 'Stop. and recall whistles to my satisfaction, He's retreiving to hand ( most of the time) And now the serious stuff can begin. The 'Span, he's just 11 weeks, and is just a daft puppy, no point in even trying, allthough he is copying the older one as far as the whistle is concerned. ( Amazing what you can achieve with a cube of liver. )
> Good luck with the 'Flattie. I'd love to know how things go, we dont get to see many of them working down with us, it's all 'Labs and Spans. I'm in the minority with my 'Goldies, Take care. Pete


Lol, as far as I'm concerned she's very much a bairn. You know, between my two chocolate Labs, Indie was mature at 18 months, very much so, and Tau took three years, so just goes to show the difference within the same breed even. So yes, we will be taking things slowly with Rhuna 



RAINYBOW said:


> My brother in lawhas working dogs and sais he doesn't bother with any training until they are 6 months, he sais its pointless


Exacterly, the first six months is all about learning manners and what is and isn't allowed. The only things I've reprimanded Rhuna for are jumping up and pulling, that's it.



wyntersmum said:


> well while oh took wynter to her kung fu class i took colin to the park. there was no dogs aroud so thought i would give it a go letting him off the lead lol
> he was realy good, every time he was engrosed in sniffing id call him prob 2-3 times then her come running. when i saw somone id put him on the lead then off again when they had passed. then  hed go running round me eye wide open like a dog possesed lol. we then backtracked and when we got back to the lake thought ok let him off again lol then
> the lab in him came out and SPLASH mmmmm wet dog lol back on the lead.


Huge difference between pet puppy requirements and a gundog, in some respects, a pet pup has more things to get used to! So kudos on the training classes, they sound great


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought I'd start this thread to show a slightly different way of training pups, so many people seem to be trying to fast forward and train everything by the time their pup is six months old.
> 
> So, a bit of background, Rhuna is now 16 weeks old (or thereabouts) she was born on 11 June 2011 and is a flatcoat retriever bitch. She's a bit of a thinker, has a lovely laid back temperament, and I brought her home two weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Can we have it in pictures please


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Chuff some time tomorrow, I've had one weekend off in the last 14, so I am cream crackered, but I will post some pics of the flatsome girlie as soon as I can, just for you


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Glad to hear, you'll be posting more pics soon. Terence and I have a bit of a crush on your girlies 

We are definitely working on the manners with Terence. And recall. He is so enthusiastic with his recall at the moment, that he is bashing into me so hard that my legs are covered in bruises (he does have a buster collar on at the moment, though).


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2011)

Oh I love this thread, and i need it too as you are probably all aware by now i was stressing a bit about how well reba is doing. In truth, though i know very little, at 14 weeks she is FAB!

Sleeps like a baby all night, more or less housetrained (apart from chewing my wooden doors) , sits, often stays, comes (again I do this when I know she is likely to come back). I am so glad that we can take it slooooowly.

Gavs.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Oy! I've got a Border Collie who's now 7 months old. If I don't train her, she trains herself. I don't deliberately train a thousand different things, I haven't trained her to give her paw, or roll over etc, but I have trained recall, walk to heel, left, right and straight ahead, fetch, thank you (drop), sit, down, stand and quite a few other things. 

I've had her since she was 9 weeks old though, so to me I am taking it steady. I'm taking it hopefully at a rate that suits her, keeps her interested, keeps it fun and occupies her brain.

I'm not sure I like the implication that if you teach more than one thing to a dog before it's 6 months old you're overdoing it. 

I try to make sure my training suits my particular dog. It doesn't necessarily mean I'd train a staffie x whippet the same things in the same way, or expect it to know the same things my collie does.

You've trained recall, sit and retrieve in two weeks. That ain't that slow.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Elles said:


> Oy! I've got a Border Collie who's now 7 months old. If I don't train her, she trains herself. I don't deliberately train a thousand different things, I haven't trained her to give her paw, or roll over etc, but I have trained recall, walk to heel, left, right and straight ahead, fetch, thank you (drop), sit, down, stand and quite a few other things.
> 
> I've had her since she was 9 weeks old though, so to me I am taking it steady. I'm taking it hopefully at a rate that suits her, keeps her interested, keeps it fun and occupies her brain.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone was saying that teaching your dogs more than just recall is doing too much. I think SL was merely trying to make other pup owners feel better about not having the perfect dog straight away and that it takes some time to achieve a well-behaved dog.

We also teach Terence more than just recall because he's quite intelligent and needs to be kept engaged. But there shouldn't be any pressure to have a 4-month old pup to do all the positions, walk to heel, have perfect heelwork etc...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

^^ what she said 

I do think some puppy owners, particularly those new to dogs, and I know because I've done it myself, feel pressured into teaching them everything they can within the shortest space of time. What *we* forget, is that pups, like us, are all different, they will learn at different rates, and so focussing on the basics is important, anything else is a bonus, and just how much else depends on individual pups. 

I will try and get some pics of Rhuna later today, she does a lovely sit to wait to have her lead put on and taken off, and it will be our first one to one training session today so I won't be concentrating on three different dogs doing different things


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Apologies as it was persisting down to a great extent, still is I'm afraid, so much so, that the rain has come through my un-waterproofs!!

But here we have Rhuna sitting nicely and waiting for me to take her lead off, followed by a naff shot of her recalling, if the camera had taken the pic when I pressed the button it would have been better!



















I blew the recall whistle just as she looked straight at me, and I could tell she'd already made the decision to come back to me, but she did recall from a longer distance without that initial look up, we are getting there 

Heelwork was a bit all over the place, but one nice stretch of lovely heelwork, with her right next to my knee


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Aw, look at her little face. She looks so engaged in her exercise. Very alert and ready to go. Gorgeous. Now, if you could just do the same to Terence


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm hoping my interweb connection allows me to upload a couple of photos to post, we had a lovely little training session this lunch time, haven't done much at all other than encourage Rhuna to recall, walk to heel, and sit nicely to the stop whistle and wait for the next *thing* to happen, even if that's just releasing her to 'go play'.

So fingers crossed if Photobucket ever catches up, there should be three nice pics of Rhuna sat, this is where I took her out on her own initially, and then much more difficult, one with the girls, it's a lot of concentration for a flatcoat pup, and it's right at her limit. Her focus isn't quite there yet, but I'll work on that, and I'm doing zilch retrieving, because that's the least important thing for now, she gets lots of play time with the girls, and hopefully we'll build on the basic obedience and incorporate the element of play into her training. I'm really pleased with her, she's coming on a treat, and I'm taking it nice and steady.





































So just to reiterate, she knows her name, she knows recall although can be a bit unfocussed so I have to be careful to ensure she doesn't wander off in a world of her own, she knows how to walk nicely to heel, but again, can lose focus, so short training sessions for that, and she knows very much the sit to the stop whistle. She'll be just over four months old, and that's really all the progress we need for her, once she hits six months of age is when the real training starts to begin, and build up, so if I can get the recall and lead work a bit more focussed by then, I'll be more than happy


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Gorgeous pics as ever of your gorgeous girlies 

Terence is doing okay as well. He has stopped pulling like a maniac and only pulls on the last 100yards home or so. I stop when he pulls and wait til he takes a step back and looks at me, then praise. Then off we go. It takes us a good 10 minutes on a bad day to manage the last stretch, I am sure my neighbours think I have lost the plot  We'll soon get there. Recall is getting there as well. Works best when he thinks we are going off without him, or if I call him from another room. 

Hope to see more pics soon


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Gorgeous pics as ever of your gorgeous girlies
> 
> Terence is doing okay as well. He has stopped pulling like a maniac and only pulls on the last 100yards home or so. I stop when he pulls and wait til he takes a step back and looks at me, then praise. Then off we go. It takes us a good 10 minutes on a bad day to manage the last stretch, I am sure my neighbours think I have lost the plot  We'll soon get there. Recall is getting there as well. Works best when he thinks we are going off without him, or if I call him from another room.
> 
> Hope to see more pics soon


I have a friend who used to puppy walk for the GDBA, she was sure her neighbours thought she was completely mad, she spent most of the time walking past her own house with the pup, so that it learnt not to rely on the same journey each time, but to look to her for the correct direction.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

No pictures today I'm afraid, we had a very short training session this lunch time, but it has been far too windy to keep Rhuna's attention so why try for failure, we kept it short, sweet and successful


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Rhuna's not far off five months old, and we are still concentrating on basics. Like any pup she has a strong desire to chase things that are moving, her desire to retrieve needs a bit of work, but we are getting there. She sits nicely, she heel's nicely, and her recall ain't bad.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> One of the main things I've learnt over the short time I've owned dogs, is that training dogs isn't about cramming in as much as you can, it's about setting your dog up to get things right, not all dogs will achieve as much as others, and that's where learning how to work with a dog is so important. I love being with my dogs, as you probably will have gathered from the way Indie tries to get on my knee, and I love learning about them, and interacting with them.


I always try to remember each dog is different and try to remember what each individual is capable of and "try" never to compare...
Brilliant thread pleased you're keeping it going :thumbup:


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Sounds like shes doing well- and looks stunning


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

You've got it spot on, I've seen so many good dogs spoiled by people trying to push them too hard and too quickly. My Flyte, 6 months now, is only just starting his proper training. I've got the stop and recall whistles sorted to my satisfaction and he's bringing in to hand o.k. and that's as much as I expect from him at this stage. I've fired over him so I know he's not gunshy and my next step is to get him to associate a gunshot with something to pick up so he'll be next taught to ' Drop to shot. You are probably aware of this so I apologise in advance, but I never, ever let my dogs pick up every dummy that's put out, they only get to retreiveabout 50% of those that are put out. ( My wife usually picks the others up, well, it keeps her fit. )


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

How are you doing your heel training? Apart from using Indie and Tau? I don't suppose I could borrow them?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> How are you doing your heel training? Apart from using Indie and Tau? I don't suppose I could borrow them?


I don't do heel work with Indie and Tau, yes they are good examples, but I only use the word 'Here' (don't actually use 'Heel') when I am training Rhuna. She is asked to 'Here', which she's pretty good at, and rewarded at frequent intervals. If she gets ahead, then we stop and start again, I change my pace making it slow, fast, and walking, putting an element of fun into it so she is trying to get it right. Her sit when we 'stop' is pretty good, so introducing the whistle hasn't been a problem at all. She's also now getting the idea to focus on me when walking to heel, rather than nose down trundling along, simply from geeing her up, short, sharp sessions.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't do heel work with Indie and Tau, yes they are good examples, but I only use the word 'Here' (don't actually use 'Heel') when I am training Rhuna. She is asked to 'Here', which she's pretty good at, and rewarded at frequent intervals. If she gets ahead, then we stop and start again, I change my pace making it slow, fast, and walking, putting an element of fun into it so she is trying to get it right. Her sit when we 'stop' is pretty good, so introducing the whistle hasn't been a problem at all. She's also now getting the idea to focus on me when walking to heel, rather than nose down trundling along, simply from geeing her up, short, sharp sessions.


I see. I haven't really started any proper heel training yet. I say "heel" when he happens to be in the right spot and then praise him enthusiastically. My main focus is to stop him pulling like a steam train. He walks really well most of the time, but if there is another dog in front, he wants to go and say hello.
He is pretty good at the checking in on me stuff. I started praising him whenever he looked at me when we are out as soon as we started taking him outside. Today, he was off lead in the park and he checked back with us A LOT. It was great :thumbup: Recall was okay, too. Only had to get him once :aureola:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I see. I haven't really started any proper heel training yet. I say "heel" when he happens to be in the right spot and then praise him enthusiastically. My main focus is to stop him pulling like a steam train. He walks really well most of the time, but if there is another dog in front, he wants to go and say hello.
> He is pretty good at the checking in on me stuff. I started praising him whenever he looked at me when we are out as soon as we started taking him outside. Today, he was off lead in the park and he checked back with us A LOT. It was great :thumbup: Recall was okay, too. Only had to get him once :aureola:


I'll show you next time you're over, how to make heelwork into a game, it is so simple, and yet so effective


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

In my - somewhat jaundiced - opinion the best way to get a dog to heel is to get them covered in something thick/wet/stinking and wear good trousers. Works for me!

Seriously this stuff is fascinating. Please keep going. Of all the many things about which I know NOTHING, training gun dogs is very high on the list. It's really interesting.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just a quick note on the retrieve training bit, I think it needs a LOT of work. Got up at 5am this morning to see the OH off for the day shooting, let the girls out for a wander and wee etc, and to my great delight, Rhuna retrieved a poo from the garden, which I took out of her mouth not knowing what it was :scared: cue lots of hand scrubbing, and muttering swear words under the breath, with the OH chuckling as he went out of the door. 

*Sigh* she's completely discouraged from eating any sort of poo, but when you want to train a retrieve, one thing to always bear in the back of your mind is that you never put your dog off bringing you whatever delightul objects, dead rats, manky bits of unknown dead thing, condoms, and yes, even once (not my dogs I hasten to add) a discarded dildo. You always take the retrieve like it's the best *thing* ever, with a smile on your face and a peg on your nose; and if you're out and about, make sure you have baby/antiseptic wipes  

(just off to go scrub my hands, again, bleuuughhh)


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick note on the retrieve training bit, I think it needs a LOT of work. Got up at 5am this morning to see the OH off for the day shooting, let the girls out for a wander and wee etc, and to my great delight, Rhuna retrieved a poo from the garden, which I took out of her mouth not knowing what it was :scared: cue lots of hand scrubbing, and muttering swear words under the breath, with the OH chuckling as he went out of the door.
> 
> *Sigh* she's completely discouraged from eating any sort of poo, but when you want to train a retrieve, one thing to always bear in the back of your mind is that you never put your dog off bringing you whatever delightul objects, dead rats, manky bits of unknown dead thing, condoms, and yes, even once (not my dogs I hasten to add) a discarded dildo. You always take the retrieve like it's the best *thing* ever, with a smile on your face and a peg on your nose; and if you're out and about, make sure you have baby/antiseptic wipes
> 
> (just off to go scrub my hands, again, bleuuughhh)


:lol: :lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> :lol: :lol:


How did I know you'd find that absolutely hilarious, *sigh*  

Ok, heelwork. I hated it when I first started with dogs, absolutely thought it was the most boring thing ever, and I think that showed with the apparent ability of my dogs, and my handling. Tau used to pull like a steam train, and she's a strong, muscular dog. Indie, who currently weighs 36kgs, could pull me off my feet if she chose to do so, thankfully, she's a little better mannered, and it is all down to training.

I've been asked what I'm doing with Rhuna at the minute, and the answer is very little. I want to teach her where 'here' or the 'heel' position is, and do it in a way she enjoys, so she wants to be there, and will want to carry on from that bit of learning, and play games with me in the future. So I ask for a 'here' I tell her what a good 'here' she's doing, and reward her on the go with treats. I have done some clicker training for this, but clicker or not, as long as you're getting their attention, and they're doing it right, that's what matters.

If she's not 'here', or at 'heel', then I stop, and get her back into the right position before we go on again, and if I have to stop again, I do, until we get it right. I always bear in mind, *we* are a team, if she isn't doing what I ask of her, particularly at this age, it's because she doesn't understand the command, and that part is down to me communicating it to her in the right way.

She's a bit of a one for scouting around for rabbit poo, so a couple of grumbly grrr's later, and she's pretty much got her nose up off the floor all the time, and all it takes is a high 'Rhurhurhurhurhu' and she's looking up, as she's already realising there's something going on and there may be *something* in it for her.

I've already mentioned this to one person, but to get a pup of under five months focussed on me for a long time is a big ask, and alongside that, to get them understanding what I want from them, is another big ask. So I keep it short and simple. Once I've got her looking at me 'Good lass, that's a good 'here'', treat, if she's still looking 'that's a good 'here'', treat, possibly throw in a sit for the stop whistle here, and introduce the palm out hand signal, wait a second, treat. Lead off, make her sit, with just the hand signal, treat. Then relase her to go and play. And that's it, that's all I ask of her at the minute. I change speed, direction a little, but she's only a babe still, so I don't want to over do it. Today, I got the added bonus of Rhuna trotting along off lead to my side, which is quite natural for a pup, and so I praised her as usual, and gave her a treat, so she did it a bit more.

As we progress, I will make it into more of a game, changing speed and direction a little more and almost daring her to keep up with me, but doing it in such a way as I won't set her up so she can't win. And at the end of any session like that, big huge fusses to show her how fabulous she is.

One note to add in at this point, I've been focussing on her recall, which has been a bit hit and miss, so rather than try to recall her, I've been going right up to her to get her attention first, and I have to say, she's coming on great. She may be a bit of a clownish flatcoat, with a bit of a clownish owner, but we're getting there


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## Rosie Dane (Oct 12, 2011)

This is really interesting! Can I ask a few questions please?

I have an 11wk old Great Dane puppy, (slightly different from yours!). I just want to check I'm teaching her correctly if you don't mind? I also have a 7yr old Border Collie who I never really trained at all. She just kind of knew everything  So I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

So far, Rosie will go outside to toilet if the back door is open. If it's shut and she's loose in the kitchen, she wont ask but I take her out every time she wakes up, finishes eating and has been playing and have so far avoided any accidents. At night, she has her last visit outside at 11pm and manages to sleep in her pen til 6am when she shouts to go out. If she does need in the night, she shouts and I go through and let her out. Then she'll go back in her pen til morning. We only had one accident over night the last time she was wormed and though she shouted, she just couldn't hold it in in time to get out the door. Does that sound ok for an 11wk old pup? I think it does.

Regarding training, she will sit on command and I'll treat her and she will "leave" when told too. Her recall is ok. I use the word "come" as I thought saying "here" sounded too much like "heel" and didn't want her confused when I started training her on the lead.

Until today, she's only ever been in the garden so we went on our first lead walk this morning. I have a Cosy Dogs harness on her and of course, she was a bit all over the place. Randomly changine sides, stopping, starting etc. So, do I correct her now from the start? Should I expect her to walk at my side from now or is it too early for her? Today, I just really let her get used to the feeling of being on the lead and having the harness on but I want to make sure I get it right from the start. After all, she's going to be a big girl and I don't want to be getting hauled everywhere!

Finally, (phew I hear you say), I let her off the lead for a bit when we got to the field and she mainly just followed the collie. I called her back occasionally and sometimes she came back of her own accord, sometimes I had to call the collie to get Rosie to follow. Each time I praised and treated her once she was sitting nicely and then said "off you go". Does that sound ok?

Thanks so much for reading all that! We go to our first puppy training tomorrow but I have been following your threads SL and you seem like you know what you're doing so I'd value your opinion


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How did I know you'd find that absolutely hilarious, *sigh*


I have no idea what you are trying to say here... :aureola:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Rosie Dane said:


> This is really interesting! Can I ask a few questions please?
> 
> I have an 11wk old Great Dane puppy, (slightly different from yours!). I just want to check I'm teaching her correctly if you don't mind? I also have a 7yr old Border Collie who I never really trained at all. She just kind of knew everything  So I want to make sure I'm doing it right.
> 
> ...


I'm in absolute stitches, thank you so much for the compliment but I'm honestly not a dog trainer of any kind, just a dog owner/handler who knows her limitations. I started this post after seeing so many people post long threads about how their 12 week old puppy knows so many commands it's unreal. Having done this myself, and realised just how easy it is to *think* a puppy knows something, and it's instilled, I know just how unrealistic that can be. So this thread was to try and show how I aim to concentrate on the basics with Rhuna, and how I go about training things.

I don't train heelwork on fun walks, I train it separately, simply because you've got no hope of getting the attention you need to really train heelwork. I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this is the number one mistake people make with a pup, and end up with a puller, again, I've done exactly the same thing myself. People get a pup and go on the school run, or some other walk with limited time, so they have to get from A to B, and possibly back to A again, and won't have the time needed to really train the pup properly, stop, get them calm, set off again, stop and get the calm, change direction possibly etc, etc, and so they *think* it's ok to let them pull because they're only puppies and they will eventually learn. And then all of a sudden you've got a dog that's over 20kgs that can pull your shoulder out of it's socket.

So when I take Rhuna out for a walk with the girls, I don't actually train heelwork at all, I try to keep pulling to a minimum, it's easy with my two because they aren't that bad with their manners, and generally don't pull. When I have Rhuna with me, she sits for her lead being put on, and then I ask for 'here' to set off, correct her if she pulls a bit, tbh, she doesn't pull much when it's one to one, but either a reminder with a short tug on the lead, not enough to pull her, just to get her attention, or a verbal 'Ah ah!', but MOST importantly, praise and reward the times she's getting it right, and she has a lovely heel walking next to me, looking up, and flouncing those big flat coat paws up and down. When we get to where we're going, I ask for a sit, verbally, with a hand signal and sometimes with a whistle as well. Then I take her lead off, and if she's still sat waiting patiently, she gets a reward and a fuss. Then, importantly, I tell her 'go play' so she knows it's ok to run off and do her own thing, calling her back randomly throughout her wander for a fuss or treat, and sometimes even for a game.

This was our training session or game this afternoon, and I had a new pink puppy dummy for her to try retrieving with, for some reason she's not that bothered about tennis balls, so I ordered a couple of different shaped/coloured toys for her. The photos are absolutely awful quality I'm afraid, and I got one very good retrieve from her straight to hand, so left it at that. Yet another thing to remember is finish any training session with success, even the smallest success, or what seems like it, and use all those times you get it right with your dog, to build up the basics and build on top of those so you can do more and more things.

I hope all that makes sense! Anyway, here's Rhuna sat waiting after having had her lead taken off.










And here she is running back with her lovely puppy dummy from Aunty Helen at Hi Lost 










I also got her a green canvas disc, just another shape for her to try, and one similar but with rabbit skin, although it will be a while before I introduce that into our training.



terencesmum said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to say here... :aureola:


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Can I ask how you approach the retrieve? From above, you said you praise enthusiastically whatever she brings back lol, but do you actually throw it for her? Or do you just praise the bits that are good without any "proper" instruction.

I have picked the kids up with Terence in tow, but I stuck to my guns and stopped whenever he was pulling which resulted in me being horrendously late to pick them up


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Can I ask how you approach the retrieve? From above, you said you praise enthusiastically whatever she brings back lol, but do you actually throw it for her? Or do you just praise the bits that are good without any "proper" instruction.
> 
> I have picked the kids up with Terence in tow, but I stuck to my guns and stopped whenever he was pulling which resulted in me being horrendously late to pick them up


I did a thread a while back about making the retrieve valuable, which is in the gundog bit, which goes over the basics of getting the dog excited about getting to retrieve. At this stage, I'm not asking Rhuna to sit and wait, I'm just geeing her up, loud 'Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrup' noises, tapping the dummy on my leg to get her attention, trailing it through the grass at my feet to make it interesting, throwing it a short distsance, letting her get to it, then turning round and legging it. Seeing me disappearing into the distance, prompts her to come running back to me with the dummy, rather than just lie there and play with her new found treasure


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I did a thread a while back about making the retrieve valuable, which is in the gundog bit, which goes over the basics of getting the dog excited about getting to retrieve. At this stage, I'm not asking Rhuna to sit and wait, I'm just geeing her up, loud 'Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrup' noises, tapping the dummy on my leg to get her attention, trailing it through the grass at my feet to make it interesting, throwing it a short distsance, letting her get to it, then turning round and legging it. Seeing me disappearing into the distance, prompts her to come running back to me with the dummy, rather than just lie there and play with her new found treasure


By sheer fluke, that is very similar to what we do with Terence, just because we found that's what makes him happiest :lol: And means I don't have to traipse round the field picking up his toys. I'm not lazy, honest


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## Rosie Dane (Oct 12, 2011)

Thanks for responding to my post. I have low expectations at the moment as Rosie is a Dane and lacks any sort of sense at present! We'll take it slow and steady for the moment and see where we get to. Wish us luck with our first puppy training tonight


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Rosie Dane said:


> Thanks for responding to my post. I have low expectations at the moment as Rosie is a Dane and lacks any sort of sense at present! We'll take it slow and steady for the moment and see where we get to. Wish us luck with our first puppy training tonight


Good luck, I really hope you enjoy yourself and learn something. One thing to remember with dog training is you can't be self conscious, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of you, it's what they think of your dog that matters


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## Rosie Dane (Oct 12, 2011)

Aaaargh, had to give the class a miss tonight as my horse kindly kicked me in the stomach!! Just what I needed


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Rosie Dane said:


> Aaaargh, had to give the class a miss tonight as my horse kindly kicked me in the stomach!! Just what I needed


Ouch!! Hope you're ok, never been kicked, but been trodden on and bitten by a horse!


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## Rosie Dane (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm alright though bruised and sore. The stupid thing is the same horse kicked me in the knee last week so I should have known better and been prepared!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

I'll have to catch up on this thread when I get a 
minute.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

And from our training session this afternoon, just 15 mins, so only short, and I took photos 

So I put Rhuna's lead on, and then remembered I'd forgotten to put the camera in my pocket, so here we have Rhuna waiting nicely, slip lead draped over her back, for me to come back outside with her and take her out......









We did some nice on lead heelwork, just praising her for nice heel work, and giving her treats, encouraging her to keep her head up and keep looking at me for directions. We changed directions a few times, coaxing her round with a treat when needs be, and she did really well. Sitting when stopping for a hand signal, and here she is waiting to be told to go play after taking her lead off









So then we did a bit of off lead heelwork, again, very nice, didn't stretch her so kept it short, sweet and successful. We practised a few sit/stops, and here's a couple of photos of her sitting, I was trying to get a nice profile shot of her, and I hope I succeeded


















We did one fabulous retrieve, got the dummy (thank you again Helen at Hi Lost) and patted it on my leg, made high pitched 'brrrrruuuuuup' noises, swirled it round in the grass next to me so she was DYING to get it, so threw it a short distance and legged it. She ran and pounced on the dummy, really want to keep that enthusiasm in there, then started to play with it a bit, she's still very puppyish, and spotted I was receding into the distance so came running, beautiful delivery to hand, lots of nice praise, end of retrieve practice!









And this is Rhuna at the end of her walk waiting for her lead to go back on









A really good training session, am very pleased with her


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

She's beautiful, is she a Flattie? Side on head profile def looks that way. They're lovely pics 

Aah yes, didn't read the earlier pages saying so!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

TheFredChallenge said:


> She's beautiful, is she a Flattie? Side on head profile def looks that way. They're lovely pics


Yes she is, she's about five months old, so still very puppy like, although she seems to have shot up into the gangly stage very quickly.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I don't think anyone [thinks] teaching your [pups] more than just recall is doing too much.
> I think S-L [tries] to make other pup-owners feel better about not having the perfect dog straight away
> & that it takes some time to achieve a well-behaved dog.
> 
> ...


i don't expect any 4-MO pup to have 'perfect heelwork', but i don't think it's overdoing it to teach a pup 
between 8-WO when the pup arrives, & 16-WO, to *Sit, Down & Stand on cue*, & a short '*Down / Stay*' - 
maybe 2-minutes at a 15-ft distance, & 30-minutes when on-leash attached to the sitting handler.

8-WO to 16-WO is 2 solid months, during which i can teach a pup a helluva lot without any cramming, 
nor frustrating the pup, being picky & obsessive, or rushing. And i still expect any puppy to need play, 
exploration time, dog-social time, & habituation; plus human-socialization is an ongoing project, etc.

see the training videos on the *PuppyProdigies* website - they teach pups as young as 21-days, 
Video Clips 
& all the pups are potential SD-candidates. With reward-based training, there's no reason to wait til 6-MO.
young pups are sponges for early-learning; just like toddlers, they are learning anything on offer.

it's up to us to make sure that they learn the RIGHT things; that IMO is much more important than fretting 
that we might 'teach the puppy too much'. Not teaching a pup to know their name, recall, position cues, etc, 
only pushes learning back later, when the pup approaches all the distractions of puberty & independence.

so long as we're not excessive, nor do we punish / use aversives, i see no reason to limit any pup. 
i mean that literally - if this pup can do it, teach it! OBVIOUSLY this does not include impact sports, 
such as agility, nor any tests of endurance; we're only talking of cued behaviors on & off leash. 
[sit, down, stand; stay; come; heel / LLW; be handled & examined; grooming; greet strangers, 
meet other dogs & play appropriately; enter a crate on-cue; fetch, as a fun thing; load into a car; etc.]

i don't think anyone expects a 4-MO pup to do a formal FRONT & PRESENT when fetching a toy.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i don't expect any 4-MO pup to have 'perfect heelwork', but i don't think it's overdoing it to teach a pup
> between 8-WO when the pup arrives, & 16-WO, to *Sit, Down & Stand on cue*, & a short '*Down / Stay*' -
> maybe 2-minutes at a 15-ft distance, & 30-minutes when on-leash attached to the sitting handler.
> 
> ...


Terry, I'm training her up to do gundog stuff, she doesn't need a down, nor does she need to have her head crammed full of other stuff, her basics are great, so I'm sticking to them 

Maybe you need to read the first few pages to see why I've posted this thread as a diary for training, so that people with pups aren't disheartened because theirs doesn't know 20 or 30 different commands, for me, as long as the basics are in there, that's all that matters.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i did read the other pages. :001_smile:



Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...I'm training her up to do gundog stuff, she doesn't need a down...


Gundogs don't need to LIE DOWN in a car, or LIE DOWN on the vet's table for a belly-up exam? 
why not? :blink:

i teach every dog or pup to down on-cue, gundogs, agility dogs, even [gasp!] SHOW DOGS, 
 despite their owner's or handler's bizarre terror that their dog might lie-down in the ring.

just because the dog knows what to do *when cued* to SIT or DOWN doesn't mean that dog will do it 
any old time; ON CUE means just that, the dog performs the behavior when asked. 
dogs 'know how' to sit, lie down, roll-over, shake-off water, etc, just as they've learned to WALK - 
our part is to teach them to do behaviors when asked to do them, specifically.

we don't teach dogs 'how to' breathe, sneeze, urinate, digest, belch, etc; they already know how. 
WE CAN teach them to do any voluntary behavior on-cue; digesting is not voluntary, it's automatic - 
as is breathing, heart-rate, & other life-support functions. 


Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...nor does she need to have her head crammed full of other stuff...


it's Ur choice. :yesnod:

i do teach *all pups* to be handled, groomed, stand on cue, sit on cue, down on cue, etc.

Every puppy will be bathed at some time, go to the VET at some time, & so on. 
obviously, what i think is 'basic' to any pup isn't the same list that U use; this is IMO & IME, 
& i don't carve bits off the list for certain breeds, k9-jobs, etc; i ADD other stuff for specialties.

Ex: 
future show-pups learn to free stack & be examined by strangers while standing still. 
these are short, happy lessons with treats & fun games - no shouting, shoving, impatience, 
no grabbing paws & placing them irritably while muttering imprecations at the puppy... 
it's all fun, the pup doesn't know the difference between 'lesson' & 'game'. If i have my way, 
they never figure that out. :lol: just as no puppy i train ever knows that i cannot outrun him or her... 
*that's a secret.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i did read the other pages. :001_smile:
> 
> Gundogs don't need to LIE DOWN in a car, or LIE DOWN on the vet's table for a belly-up exam?
> why not? :blink:
> ...


Terry, I don't make any of my dogs lie down in a car, they are told to 'settle' and know they just need to settle down, whether that's in the house, in the car, or out visiting.

All my dogs are regularly felt over (I go over each of them every day), handled, and will accept being turned over, made to sit, stand, lie down, roll over etc, and have procedures done. I recently took Tau to have bloods taken, and she sat there absolutely fine to have a patch shaved on her leg, and to have bloods taken.

Flatcoats aren't stacked at UK shows, nor are Labs, so there's no need to train for that, although I will be clicker training a 'stand' if I ever get as far as showing Rhuna, which I'm discussing with her breeder at the minute. If I do show her, and she happens to lie down, I couldn't care less, she's a living breathing animal, not a robot, and I will always come home with the best flatcoat in any case 

Thanks for your suggestions, but honestly, I have a plan in place for what she needs to know, and at the moment, at five months of age, we're well on target


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Right. I've caught up now. I think you are dong great. Keep patient, keep calm and take things as slowly as you have to. 
Foundations are the key to all good training. I'll pop in now and again to keep up to speed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

grandad said:


> Right. I've caught up now. I think you are dong great. Keep patient, keep calm and take things as slowly as you have to.
> Foundations are the key to all good training. I'll pop in now and again to keep up to speed.


Thanks, she's currently flat out in front of the Yorkshire range, dosn't take much to wear a flatcoat out! I'll try and get some more photos of her tomorrow, the OH is about so it's possible for one of us to handle, the other to photograph, I'm terrible at trying to take pics of my own dogs whilst training


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i don't expect any 4-MO pup to have 'perfect heelwork', but i don't think it's overdoing it to teach a pup
> between 8-WO when the pup arrives, & 16-WO, to *Sit, Down & Stand on cue*, & a short '*Down / Stay*' -
> maybe 2-minutes at a 15-ft distance, & 30-minutes when on-leash attached to the sitting handler.
> 
> ...


I think you are slightly missing the point of SL's thread!
As should have been obvious from her previous posts, she is indeed teaching Rhuna positions, recall and various other things. (as am I with Terence)
However, the point of this thread is to make other puppy owners relax about their training. It is not the end of the world, if your pup can't do all the positions straight away. If you keep at it, are consistent, have short, fun training sessions and use positive methods, you will get there.
That's SL's point! And I applaud her for doing this thread!

Also: I think it was slightly redundant to point out not to wait til pupster is 6 months old, since nobody is advocating this at all. Which should have been obvious from the fact that SL is posting about Rhuna's training sessions at 5 months old :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> ...I think it was slightly redundant to point out not to wait til pupster is 6-MO,
> since nobody is advocating this...


i did Not say, *"Don't wait till the pup is 6-MO..."* 
i said that it's not necessary to put off training till ANY specific age, if we are not using aversives. 
IOW - if we are reward-training, so long as the pup is physically capable, we can teach it anytime.

i agree with this:


Elles said:


> Oy! I've got a BC who's now 7-MO. If I don't train her, she trains herself.
> I don't deliberately train a thousand different things, I haven't trained... give her paw, roll over etc, but I've trained
> recall, heel, left, right & straight ahead, fetch, thank you (drop), sit, down, stand & quite a few other things.
> 
> ...


i'm not sure about this - 


springerpete said:


> Flyte [my Goldie]... is just 6-MO & it's time now to start with his proper training.
> We've sorted out the Stop & recall whistles to my satisfaction,
> He's retreiving to hand ( most of the time) - And now the serious stuff can begin.


and another: 


RAINYBOW said:


> My BIL has working dogs & says he doesn't bother with any training until they are 6-MO,
> he says its pointless


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i did Not say, *"Don't wait till the pup is 6-MO..."*
> i said that it's not necessary to put off training till ANY specific age, if we are not using aversives.
> IOW - if we are reward-training, so long as the pup is physically capable, we can teach it anytime.
> 
> ...


Terry, I've pm'd you about this thread, I really appreciate what you're trying to say, but really, Rhuna's progress is spot on for her breed, and for what I want. What use is giving a paw if she doesn't recall, or walk nicely to heel? What use is a down, if, after all the training, I can't get her to retrieve?

She's literally within the past few days finished teething, so I can, over the next couple of months, start to build in a little more focus. I'm not using aversives, well, actually I probably am, because I do give her a steely glare and a 'grrr' to discourage her from eating rabbit/sheep/horse poo, but focus more on trying to get her away from it, so I can reward her for the right behaviour.

Many gundog folk I know do exactly the same with retrievers, focus on the basics until they are six months of age, they continually reassess and build in more training as and when required. I'll let you know when we're ready to do heelwork to music


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i did Not say, *"Don't wait till the pup is 6-MO..."*
> i said that it's not necessary to put off training till ANY specific age, if we are not using aversives.
> IOW - if we are reward-training, so long as the pup is physically capable, we can teach it anytime.
> 
> ...


I think this is potentially a case of crossed wires. NOBODY was saying not to train their dogs, merely to take it slowly, let your pup be a pup and take some time figuring your dog out.
When training Terence (who is about a week younger than Rhuna), we work on recall (my number 1 priority), basic positions (sit, stand, down), roll over, stay, drop it, leave it, follow and we have started some (very basic) retrieves. BUT this is completely dominated by Terence. He learns very quickly and wants to please. He also LOVES fetching stuff back, so we are just "exploiting" what he does of his own accord. All this works really well for Terence. But SL's point is: If your pup needs to go slower that is absolutely fine.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Rhuna is doing really well[nearly as well as Evie:laugh:]
I can vouch for Helen at Hi Lost- shes really helpful. I've just ordered another dummy- the right size this time


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thankfully, there was the opportunity today to get someone with a big posh camera to take some photos when I had Rhuna out, so we've got some really nice portraits, and you can see what the black blur with the pink spot actually is. We did a few retrieves today, trying to get her really excited about coming back to me, and we did a few sits, which I think she knows a bit too well, as she's sticky recalling from them, so I'll be varying training to get her coming back to me nicely when I call or whistle her 























































Such a shame the ears and toes got slightly missed off this one




































And I just LOVE this shot


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Boy oh boy, she is looking absolutely stunning! Looking all grown up, too.

We had a good day in the park, too :thumbup: As the OH is taking the kids to the in-laws, we left really early for the park. We got there at half 7 and there was hardly anybody there. So I figured, perfect time for some games. Let him off lead and threw a stick for him. He retrieves really well, we are just working on the soft delivery rather than him giving the stick a good shake before handing it over (any tips, Jo?). I also recalled him every once in a while (to keep him on his toes) and he came back without hesitation every single time : He even returned halfway a gallop towards some other dog he spotted in the distance. Yeah! (I did have to leg it the other way, though :lol

Do you mind showing me some of your training with Rhuna next time? I'm always looking to keep it interesting for him


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Terry, I've pm'd you about this thread, I really appreciate what you're trying to say, but really, Rhuna's progress is spot on for her breed, and for what I want. What use is giving a paw if she doesn't recall, or walk nicely to heel? What use is a down, if, after all the training, I can't get her to retrieve?
> 
> She's literally within the past few days finished teething, so I can, over the next couple of months, start to build in a little more focus. I'm not using aversives, well, actually I probably am, because I do give her a steely glare and a 'grrr' to discourage her from eating rabbit/sheep/horse poo, but focus more on trying to get her away from it, so I can reward her for the right behaviour.
> 
> Many gundog folk I know do exactly the same with retrievers, focus on the basics until they are six months of age, they continually reassess and build in more training as and when required. I'll let you know when we're ready to do heelwork to music


I think that there is two phases to training. Firstly there is the initial training, toilet training, recall training, and such, that i believe a pup should learn as soon as they get home. This doesn't stop them from being a pup. Secondly there is the required training. (dependent on what you want to do with the dog and of course it's physique and breeding) Serious gundog training normally starts around six months. But prior to that, a lot of it is playing games. Playing games, such as, fetch for example are leading up to the serious training. There is also the socialisation period, when we try and get the dog accustomed to the big wide world, This may include a shotgun being discharged, or a ride on the beaters trailer, or sharing the back of a car with 2/3 other dogs. 
In the first instance it's all a game and then the serious stuff starts. But the pup has had a good grounding in the type of things he will encounter in his life. I know of 16 week old pups that are hunting and retrieving, but its all very much a game at this stage and not what I would call serious training. The games we play when they are pups, build the bond that will be the working relationship for the next.................................... ??? years. I would also advocate to keep playing those games into adulthood and the bond will remain.


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## Rosie Dane (Oct 12, 2011)

Wow, loving your pictures! She's some stunner


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Boy oh boy, she is looking absolutely stunning! Looking all grown up, too.
> 
> We had a good day in the park, too :thumbup: As the OH is taking the kids to the in-laws, we left really early for the park. We got there at half 7 and there was hardly anybody there. So I figured, perfect time for some games. Let him off lead and threw a stick for him. He retrieves really well, we are just working on the soft delivery rather than him giving the stick a good shake before handing it over (any tips, Jo?). I also recalled him every once in a while (to keep him on his toes) and he came back without hesitation every single time : He even returned halfway a gallop towards some other dog he spotted in the distance. Yeah! (I did have to leg it the other way, though :lol
> 
> Do you mind showing me some of your training with Rhuna next time? I'm always looking to keep it interesting for him


I don't mind at all, in fact I had it in mind to include a couple of little bits of training when you were next over, which reminds me, will pm you in a bit when I know which days I'm going to be in 

Thankss for the lovely comments, I know I'm biased about my dogs, but I do think they're all rather gorgeous


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thankss for the lovely comments, I know I'm biased about my dogs, but I do think they're all rather gorgeous


Well, it appears that Tom is rather taken with Rhuna! I quote "I wouldn't mind one of those!" :lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Well, it appears that Tom is rather taken with Rhuna! I quote "I wouldn't mind one of those!" :lol:


Will be checking your car and patting you down before you go, if you suddenly develop a large tummy that moves, I will be very suspicious!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Not huge amounts to post really on this thread at the moment, but just thought I'd give it a bump, we're still plodding away with those basics, and, although we have the occasional hiccup with Rhuna wanting to keep the dummy, we're getting there, lots of praise for her for bringing it back and holding it. I get down to her level, so I'm not mugging her by leaning in over her when I take it off her, but the most important thing is lots of fuss before I even think about taking it, if she drops it, she drops it, we'll work on that a bit later, the main thing is, she's not spitting it at me, just holding onto it really nicely, which is what we're after  

Heel work's ok, recall's ok, sit's are good with the occasional blonde moment, so pretty much on target. She's not as focussed with other dogs around, but she's still very young and a little ditsy, as I'm reliably informed, flatcoats generally are.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

After all the recall training recently, had Rhuna out on a grouse moor earlier, two perfect retrieves out of three, just what I wanted. Bonus was she recalled from distraction approximately 75% of the time, something she's new to, so that high a success I'm pleased with


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> After all the recall training recently, had Rhuna out on a grouse moor earlier, two perfect retrieves out of three, just what I wanted. Bonus was she recalled from distraction approximately 75% of the time, something she's new to, so that high a success I'm pleased with


What do you do to practise the recall from distraction?? Bane of my life that is with Terence. Legging it the other way won't be cutting it for that much longer, so really need to nail it soon.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> What do you do to practise the recall from distraction?? Bane of my life that is with Terence. Legging it the other way won't be cutting it for that much longer, so really need to nail it soon.


Ooooh, she's such a mummy's girl, it's easy, I just whistle! No, honestly, I have it easy with Rhu, she is soooo into me, if I whistle she is there, she may run past me on the recall, but she is so worried she'll miss me, she is totally mine on the recall. So much so, she outdid another dog on the recall, disappearing on to the horizon, I blew the recall, Rhuna stopped, wheeled, and ran straight back to her mum, good girl.

I must say, I am not relying on that recall at all, we will be building and confirming what she knows, but what she knows looks pretty good, and I'm proud of my fluffy black girl


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ooooh, she's such a mummy's girl, it's easy, I just whistle! No, honestly, I have it easy with Rhu, she is soooo into me, if I whistle she is there, she may run past me on the recall, but she is so worried she'll miss me, she is totally mine on the recall. So much so, she outdid another dog on the recall, disappearing on to the horizon, I blew the recall, Rhuna stopped, wheeled, and ran straight back to her mum, good girl.
> 
> I must say, I am not relying on that recall at all, we will be building and confirming what she knows, but what she knows looks pretty good, and I'm proud of my fluffy black girl


Fancy a swap? Fluffy black Terence? He is cute, honest 
With Terence it's just getting his attention. Once you've got it, he's great. I have been thinking about using a whistle. What do you think? Good idea? Bad idea?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've not posted on this thread for ages, basically because we've not really been able to concentrate on training, work pressures and other stuff. However, over the last couple of weeks, training has been intensified. Because of the good basics and lots of steadiness training, we have the building blocks to develop her further. I now have her out training alongside another dog or more, sometimes we have to have a break as she's incredibly hot and wants every retrieve still. But the bonus is, she has bags of ability, her natural marking is superb and she loves hunting, so now it's a juggling act of keeping the steadiness in there, not letting her get too hot and start allowing errors to creep in. She did a couple of fantastic long memory retrieves last night, the last one perfect, and went out after another dog had been so trusted me there was something out there for her to retrieve. 

So to recap, she's 19 months old, or there abouts and after letting her be a puppy and focussing on recall and house training mainly until six months, then building up on her heelwork and steadiness with a very occasional retrieve for the next 12 months, now I'm starting to add more of the gundog work in. The dogs I am training with vary in age, the one I train with most is a field trial bred dog, same age as Zasa, so about 10 months and has been trained for most of his life, right from being a pup incorporating play with training, to ramping up his training from six months or so. 

But the point of this thread was just to show that there is no right or wrong way to train a dog right from being a puppy, if you end up with a dog that has nice manners, and responds well to you, then whether you've trained them as if they are going to be a field trial champion from the day they arrived, or just focussed on the basics and built up on that slowly, then you can still end up with a well trained dog. I like the slower methods because I'm not the best handler, so it gives me chance not to build in mistakes with my dogs.


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