# bitch spaying before 1st season good idea ????



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

What are your thoughts got lilly booked in to be spayed next Tuesday she is 8 months and not had a season yet I found at vet that will do her my vet won't until 3 months after her 1st season what are your thoughts have you ever done this been told this morning that spaying before a season can cause lifetime incontinence and slow down maturity don't know what do do know thing is I also own her half unneutered brother so needed her son aspa in case she comes into season makes sense to have her done first as dogs can still be fertile for up to 7 weeks after castration do not want to risk a unwanted mating thanks in advance .


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

As you've found, it can vary from vet to vet as to when they would advise having a bitch spayed.

My own opinion would be to spay between the first and second season and that's what I've always done.

However, with an entire male in your house, I think I would go ahead and have her spayed before she has a season.

Probably not ideal, but that may well be the lesser of two evils, in my opinion.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> What are your thoughts got lilly booked in to be spayed next Tuesday she is 8 months and not had a season yet I found at vet that will do her my vet won't until 3 months after her 1st season what are your thoughts have you ever done this been told this morning that spaying before a season can cause lifetime incontinence and slow down maturity don't know what do do know thing is I also own her half unneutered brother so needed her son aspa in case she comes into season makes sense to have her done first as dogs can still be fertile for up to 7 weeks after castration do not want to risk a unwanted mating thanks in advance .


Personal choice I have waited until maturity and spayed 12/13 weeks after a season when you know all the internal changes and raised hormone levels have returned to a static/resting state. Daisy was 18 months when she was spayed I rescued her at 15 months when she was just coming into season. Nan was a year old when she was spayed after a first season at 9mths then I waited the 12 weeks. She had an infection on the first season anyway which as she was a year before it finished I decided to go ahead. My other bitches were spayed by rescue before I got them anyway as were all older adults.

Some vets do advocate spaying a 6months before a first season, others and mine still does advocate at least a first season and spaying 12 weeks approx after, which wouldn't matter if he didn't as I personally as I said wouldn't spay before a first season anyway.

There are thoughts that spaying at the wrong time can cause more likelihood of urinary spinchter incompetence, and that also spaying in puppy hood can cause them to be more immature behavioural wise for longer. There was also a study although admittedly on larger breeds that spaying before sexual maturity can and does cause dogs to grow more excessively making them at risk of joint problems and things like cruciate ligament ruptures due to the sex hormones naturally cutting off the growth hormones during the normal process
where as if you spay/neuter before this takes place excessive growth can occur.

The other reason a lot of vets wont spay before a first season too is that by waiting the 12 weeks or so after you know that the internal changes and increased blood supply and raised hormone levels have subsided. Should it be done before then, the chances of bleeding during the spay can be increased due to this particularly the increased blood supply so surgery can become more complicated.

In your case though its not quite so straightforward as you have an entire male in the house where as mine were all spayed and neutered already when an unspayed one was bought in. Only you can decide but it will obviously mean that you will need to keep them apart for minimum of three weeks maybe even a bit longer to be sure, and some entire males can lose the plot and really go loopy with an unspayed bitch about.

Ive not had any problems doing as I have, but there are likely people on the forum who have spayed before a first season and not had problems either. Short answer is I guess only you can decide whats best for you and your situation.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Thank you so much for your replies I've know bitches to be done at 6 months and are fine I think I will have to do and hope for the best its so hard when you gave 2 vets telling you 2 different things


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Vets seem to be split on it but certainly round here most are done at 6 months . I was very wary of it but for personal reasons wanted to get my last one spayed before her season and my vet preferred to anyway. The only thing I would say is that her coat is quite soft. I think maybe they need hormones to give a proper adult coat. I like it though, I can feel the difference where there is a strip of more adult coat along her shoulders and I would not have liked that all over!

I have had loads of bitches spayed over the years and have never considered doing it before the first season but small dogs do mature quicker. Candy was done after her first season and we had endless problems during the season with an infection and she has been left incontinent and will have to have propalin for the rest of her life - so it is not cut and dried.

I would be a little wary at 8 months as it is more possible that she is about to come in season in which case her hormones will be coming and then get 'cut off' which could affect coat and possibly temperament (not sure) and if her uterus is starting to be active there is more risk of bleeding during the op.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Gosh you have me morw worried now she is a shih tzu x jack Russellbut got more jack coat so more wiry than soft Bertie looks Luke a shih tzu had my gsd spayed after her 2nd season she piled weight on after


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

because of personal experience i would always leave it at least one season before spaying... twice have we spayed pre-heat and both girls have had issues with it; Tinker was incontinent from 6 months old (started the week after her spay) and River is so mentally immature i'm not sure she'll ever 'grow up'. she's already nearly 4 and has been stuck at teen angst stage since her spay (at 12 months, but still pre-heat).

but as has been said above, many have had no issues what so ever with it! you have to weigh the costs in your own personal situation, and having a male there i would also be considering a pre-heat spay...


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

A females muscles in that area don't mature until after a first season, which is why there is a risk of incontinence after. It's always tricky with a first, as you can never be sure when it will arrive. If you're able to be vigilant and have somewhere you can remove your male to at the first sign of a season (if you don't know what that is then find out ASAP) and keep him out of the house for the full three weeks then I would say let her have her season first. However if you can't get the dog cared for elsewhere for the time then it's probably a risk worth taking to have her spayed first, under vet advice as to the best time.

It's a shame you didn't think about the problem of bringing a bitch into a home with an entire male before this situation came about. :/


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Gosh you have me morw worried now she is a shih tzu x jack Russellbut got more jack coat so more wiry than soft Bertie looks Luke a shih tzu had my gsd spayed after her 2nd season she piled weight on after


My vet gives me funny looks when I tell her Toffee's coat was affected by an early spay but I am sure it is true.
In your situation and with a small dog I would go for it though.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

I know a lot of you will be wondering why I have two dogs which are half brother and sister and both uneutered Bertie is 18 months I probably should have had him done ages ago but was in no rush as was not intending to have another dog but then little lily just kind of ended up with us a few days before Xmas I've only had her say 3 weeks a little darling took her to the vets the day after she came to me to get her jabs updated and this is when I discussed the spayvas I have bertie all abit of a rush I feel in my heart she should have a season but I'm scared of her coming into season at the same time I do know her mum didn't have a season until she was 12 mths so maybe she will be ok to be done if she takes after her . what's more confusing I'd love known bitches to come into season at 6,months and vets do spay at that age.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

snoopydo said:


> ... what's more confusing I'd love known bitches to come into season at 6,months and vets do spay at that age.


my poppet (who is still entire) was about 14 months when she came in season whereas her mother and her siblings as well as maternal grandmother have all came in between 6-10 months.
thankfully she's been regular since!


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

BoredomBusters said:


> A females muscles in that area don't mature until after a first season, which is why there is a risk of incontinence after. It's always tricky with a first, as you can never be sure when it will arrive. If you're able to be vigilant and have somewhere you can remove your male to at the first sign of a season (if you don't know what that is then find out ASAP) and keep him out of the house for the full three weeks then I would say let her have her season first. However if you can't get the dog cared for elsewhere for the time then it's probably a risk worth taking to have her spayed first, under vet advice as to the best time.
> 
> It's a shame you didn't think about the problem of bringing a bitch into a home with an entire male before this situation came about. :/[/
> 
> ...


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## Chloef (Feb 23, 2011)

my personal preferance is to let the bitch have a season as I have found it helps them mature better, then spay 3 months after


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

my vets will only spray before the 1st season, needless to say we are changing vets... :mad5:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

You are very sensible in your attitude of wanting to avoid an un-necessary season - how old is the half brother? could he be neutered? if she comes into season during the period where he could still be fertile is there someone that one of them could go to stay with for a couple of weeks?

I know a lot of vets like to neuter at 6 months - but if you think that bitches can have first seasons anywhere between about 4/5 and 24 months - this gives you an indication of how variable the "maturity" window can be.

I would prefer to leave her until after her 1st season - but if you feel there is a very real risk of her getting caught by your male and have nowhere you can place him when she does come into season - then early neutering seems the most sensible option.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Bertie is 18 months .


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

We had Suki our rescue Saluki cross spayed before her first season. The reason we did it was because she injured her leg and had to be rested and only lead walked for 3 weeks for it to heal and she absolutely hated not being able to run. She chewed through the tumble drier wire whilst it was plugged in, ate half a sofa and ripped up the lino in the kitchen - because she was so frustrated. We knew that she would have to be kept in or walked on lead if she came on heat so discussed it with our vet, and he agreed an early spay would be best for her as she just loves to run.
We went ahead and (fingers crossed, touch wood and everything else!) she has been fine ever since...... She is now 9 years old and once she figured out her spatial awareness and stopped hurting her legs when running, she has been a healthy, happy girl with no incontinence issues.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Indiandpuppy said:


> my vets will only spray before the 1st season, needless to say we are changing vets... :mad5:


So I take it you don't agree


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> What are your thoughts?
> ...Lilly [is scheduled] to be spayed next Tuesday; she's 8-MO & hasn't had a season yet.
> 
> I found a vet [who will spay] her; my vet won't [spay any bitch] until 3 months after her 1st season.
> ...


I haven't read the other replies, & will no doubt be crucified after being shot for expressing my opinion
& relaying my experiences, but i'm gonna do it, anyway. 

The bog-standard age to desex BOTH sexes in the USA has been 6-MO since the 1950s or '60s.
I'd say that with over 50-years of data & millions upon millions of dogs desexed, U can be fairly sure
it's safe --- particularly as surgical techniques, anaesthesias, stitch materials, etc, are all MUCH better.

In the USA, the current standard is an opiate for induction [initial sedation, very mild], followed by
intubation & gas anaesthesia using isofluorane - very safe, & very quick to recover / awaken.
If the patient is too deep, simply turning off the gas begins to bring them round; a whiff of O2
is even faster.

Generally, if it's uncomplicated, the dog is anaesthetized for no more than 30 to 40-minutes, total.

The advantages to a *pubertal* desex [5 to 9-MO, pre-estrus] are many; the biggest is the near-total
elimination of *mammary cancer*, which is 4x as common in F dogs as it is in F humans.

The 2nd major plus is the total elimination of *pyometra - * potentially-fatal infection in the uterus, which if 
it's CLOSED [not draining] has ZERO external symptoms; by the time the dog shows symptoms, they're 
very ill, & the uterine wall becomes a fragile, easily-torn balloon around a mass of pus & bacteria - 
if it ruptures before or during surgery, the infection in the abdomen will be massive.

As for _incontinence_, she's EIGHT months old; the risk of urinary-incontinence is only for pups
who are spayed while they're UNDER 3-MO, not for pups past 6-MO. Her risk of incontinence is no higher 
than that of any adult-bitch of any age.

Another happy fact:
Over 85% of all bitches who develop incontinence *recover with treatment -* it's not "lifelong",
unless U're a pigheaded dimwit who refuses to ask the vet for help when Ur dog begins to leak - 
 & we all know U aren't that type, right?...

_"Slowing down her maturation"_ is just another old-husbands' tale. 
It's complete hooey - she'll get where she's going, mentally, physically, & socially, whether or not
she's spayed at any particular age. What's *true* is that if she's bred young - which is at any age UNDER 
24-MO - her pups will die younger than they would if she & her mate are both AT LEAST 24-MO 
when they are first bred [Padgett, DVM]. The other truth is that breeding her early [6-MO,
or on a first-heat] will cause her to age faster than normal, & it's not good for her joints, etc.

Young girls shouldn't be having babies; pubertal bitches shouldn't be having pups. It's common sense.
Girls who have a baby before they are 20-YO have a larger & larger risk of premature birth, under-
weight infants [the cut-off weight that predicts a generally-healthy LIFETIME is 8# infants], babies
who need neonatal intensive-care, suffer respiratory problems, etc. The younger the mum,
the higher the risks - to infant & to mother. Eclampsia, preg-diabetes, skeletal problems, etc,
all go up for the mum, the more years we are away from 20-YO.

Personally, i've become very confident about juvenile desex - done on pups & kittens younger than
5-MO, & in municipal shelters, done when they have an approved adopter for a pup or kitten who is
old-enuf to leave mum & siblings [8-WO & up].
Juvie-desex heals faster, bleeds less, causes less scarring, less pain, is faster for the vet 
[shorter anaesthesia for the patient], & they are up & running faster after the desex.
What's not to like? :yesnod:

*Ready... Aim... :Run!:* :001_tt2:
.
.


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

We had Angel (Chi x JRT) spayed at 6 months and (shock - horror  ) we planned it before bringing her home. 

Our normal vet who we've been with for 20+ years won't spay before a season but we discussed it with him and he was happy for us to take her to another vet (who we've used before and my sister uses for her dogs)

The operation and recovery went fine, no problems at all and we've had no problems since, either physically or emotionally. 

With the large dogs we've owned in the past we always waited for a first season and I probably still would but with little ones I would always have them spayed at 6 month.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Indiandpuppy said:


> my vets will only spray before the 1st season, needless to say we are changing vets... :mad5:


No vet will REFUSE to spay a bitch after its first season. You just say nothing, let her have a season and then book her in. It may well be that he recommends spaying before the first season, as does my vet - but is hardly going to leave thousands of dogs entire because they have had a season  It is your choice when you have your bitch spayed but I dont think you should take the word of a few on this forum above the word of your vet.



leashedForLife said:


> I haven't read the other replies, & will no doubt be crucified after being shot for expressing my opinion
> & relaying my experiences, but i'm gonna do it, anyway.
> 
> The bog-standard age to desex BOTH sexes in the USA has been 6-MO since the 1950s or '60s.
> ...


Well, first of all, for once you have written a post that I can read so thank you for that.

I totally agree with the first half of what you have said. I am unsure about the maturity. Certainly early castrated dogs tend to be very puppyish but I think you are probably right and it does not affect bitches in the same way.

I disagree with you about incontinence. No bitches are spayed at 3 months in the UK (unless some rescues have started doing it). Years ago no bitches were spayed before their first season and incontinence was not seen. I have no idea how common it is but it is certainly something my vets accept happens with pre season spays. Having said that I have one that is incontinent and she had had a season but it may be more complicated than just being spayed as she had leaked a lot as a young pup and she had a very bad infection while in season and had crystals in her urine so the incontinence could be just one of those things.
I would also disagree that it is not a lifelong condition - it certainly is in most cases. Not expensive to treat and the treatment normally works well but it is still needed for the lifetime of the dog.

The very slight risk of incontinence though is far outweighed by the advantages of spaying so I would not actually take that into account. I am a little bit resistant to spaying at 6 months and majorly resistant to spaying at 3 months but I do think that in many cases it is going to suit the owner better to get it done pre season. I have had one of my many bitches over the years done pre season and felt there was no disadvantage though all my training and experiencing were telling me it was wrong.

It is a personal thing, I really think it is unlikely to affect the bitch. Some bitches have tiny vulvas before their season and I would be dubious about spaying one like that as it will not grow the same and could cause problems but this will be a minority. In fact I had a bitch spayed that had an inverted vulva and it developed normally after spaying so even that is not cut and dried. If an owner is more comfortable to let the bitch have a season then go ahead. I think allowing 2 seasons is not so sensible as there is a risk of pyo and it it cuts out the advantage of reducing the liklihood of mammary tumours - but again it is up to the owner.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> I haven't read the other replies, & will no doubt be crucified after being shot for expressing my opinion
> & relaying my experiences, but i'm gonna do it, anyway.
> 
> The bog-standard age to desex BOTH sexes in the USA has been 6-MO since the 1950s or '60s.
> ...


i agree with a lot of what you've said, but have to disagree with a few wee bits...
we absolutely treated Tinkers incontinence, but she needed the meds (and an infrequent med change) until the day she died- of mammary cancer actually. 
Tink was a grumpy sod from day one, so we never even thought of it being linked to her spay, but with River i can tell you for FACT that it stunted her maturity- since you're removing the uterus before maturity then surely you're removing a vast amount of the supply of certain hormone- and with hormones being the wee chemicals linked to growth and maturity, then remove them (especially at a time they are at their lowest in the dogs system) and you can stunt the mental development at least for a while. thankfully we can trust Riv not to go completely mental at the drop of a hat anymore- but it shouldn't have taken a yorkieXchi over 3 years to grow up. (and her vulva is still Really small)!

and the last wee bit doesn't apply AT ALL for toy breeds- it's much safer for many of them to have their 1st litter at 18ish months (3 years generally being the maiden cut-off) and there are no adverse effects at all for the bitch or pups. kuki simply Couldn't have whelped poppet when she was 3, but with poppet being bigger i still have time to decide even though she is now 3- the pelvic opening is larger for popp, but would have lost flexibility for a bitch kukis size)


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I'd avoid early neutering at all costs. I just don't think it's fair or healthy. 
I wouldn't spay or neuter until at least after the first season.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> we... treated Tinker's incontinence, but she needed the meds (and an infrequent med change)
> until the day she died - of *mammary cancer*, actually.


How old was Tinker when she was spayed?

And U are speaking of *one dog -* "over 85% recover from urinary incontinence
with treatment" still leaves more than 10%. If she's one of the over-10%, that's the stats.



kodakkuki said:


> Tink was a grumpy sod from day one, so we never even thought of it being linked to her spay,
> but with River... FACT... it stunted her maturity- since you're removing the uterus before maturity,
> then surely you're removing a vast amount of the supply of certain hormone- & with hormones being
> the wee chemicals linked to growth & maturity, then remove them (especially at a time they are at their
> ...


Stunted how?
She's shorter than she should be, has less skeletal development, is missing muscle or body-volume?
What, exactly, is STUNTED?

Excitability isn't the same as IMMATURITY - terrier-types are notoriously reactive to any stimulus,
noise, movement, change of environs, dark vs daylight will increase reactivity, etc. Yorkies are
classic terrierrrists, & altho Chis are not underground hunters, they are definitely over-reactive
terrier-types: thin-skinned, vocal, hypervigilant, turfy, tend to be one-person pets, snappy with strangers
or any intrusive persons [vets, vet techs, groomers, ____ ].

Just how big a vulva do U expect on a dog who's most-likely under 8# weight?


kodakkuki said:


> [bracket] & *bold added for emphasis:*
> 
> [the bit about DELAYING BREEDING until 24-MO at minimum] doesn't apply AT ALL for toy breeds -
> 
> ...


Per research quoted & footnoted by Padgett, *delaying breeding until the dam & sire are both at least
24-MO will add an average of TWO YEARS to the lifespan of the pups. All the pups - on average.*

It's the single least-expensive & most-effective way of extending lifespan in any breed, yet found.

Questions? Borrow this from the local library; inter-library loan will bring a copy to U,
if the local library has none of their own -

Control of Canine Genetic Diseases (Howell Reference Books) [Hardcover] [1998] (Author) George A. Padgett: Amazon.com: Books
.
.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> How old was Tinker when she was spayed?
> 5 months
> 
> And U are speaking of *one dog -* "over 85% recover from urinary incontinence
> ...


i'm well aware that from the moment you noticed a reply you had already decided not to agree... but the point is you can't just quote things at people and tell them you're right- in this case you're not. they Were affected by their early spays, and I know that as Fact, and don't need references to prove my first hand experience of it right or wrong.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Personally, I wouldn't spay or neuter before they're fully physically and mentally mature. For my sort of *breed* that's between 2-3 years, although that seems to differ for smaller breeds.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Not what you asked for - but is there a specific reason why you can't have your male neutered? Apologies if you already said that!

But IF that is an option, I would DEFINITELY consider doing that. It is an easier, faster, MUCH less invasive surgery than a spay. The males I had neutered were happily running around the same day and you'd never know that they had anything done to them. They neither changed in character, nor fur appearance, nor anything else. The ONLY alteration I had to make was to decrease their food slightly forthwith.

If, for whichever reason, is HAS to be your female that is being neutered, the best advice I can give you is to choose an excellent surgeon who has heaps of complication free surgeries under her/his belt. Bear in mind that this is just my opinion BUT I am convinced that a spay is VERY sensitive to sugical technique and competency. I believe that a whole bunch of issues which some owners can experience are the result of a semi-botched, ill executed spay. So choose your surgeon with care and discuss at length.

If they can't or won't answer your questions or concerns - choose another one. There is more than one technique and surgical approach for a spay - e.g. Some/most vets perform a total hysterectomy ( removing the ovaries and the womb and cervix), some are less radical. Read up on it so you can make an informed decision and ask pertinant question. Never forget at the end of the day its YOUR dog, not the vet's so don't accept that they blow you off.

Good luck.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> How old was Tinker when she was spayed?
> 
> And U are speaking of *one dog -* "over 85% recover from urinary incontinence
> with treatment" still leaves more than 10%. If she's one of the over-10%, that's the stats.
> .


I also have one that is on propalin for life. It would be lovely if it cured it but my vet certainly expects any bitch with spay incontinence to need medication for life.

Spay Incontinence in Dogs Interesting article, states that spaying pre first season reduces the incidence of spay incontinence. I have always said you can find a scientific study to back up any premise.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Not what you asked for - but is there a specific reason why you can't have your male neutered? Apologies if you already said that!
> 
> But IF that is an option, I would DEFINITELY consider doing that. It is an easier, faster, MUCH less invasive surgery than a spay. The males I had neutered were happily running around the same day and you'd never know that they had anything done to them. They neither changed in character, nor fur appearance, nor anything else. The ONLY alteration I had to make was to decrease their food slightly forthwith.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with you here. There are many important reasons why spaying a bitch is advantageous. There are very few with castration. Recovery period is not a valid reason for making the choice. Any small animal vet will be spaying hundreds of bitches in a year, it is a very routine op so no need to choose a special surgeon!


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> The bog-standard age to desex BOTH sexes in the USA has been 6-MO since the 1950s or '60s.
> I'd say that with over 50-years of data & millions upon millions of dogs desexed, U can be fairly sure
> it's safe --- particularly as surgical techniques, anaesthesias, stitch materials, etc, are all MUCH better.
> 
> ...


I'd like to respond to the above, if I may:

It's true that a bitch can't get pyometra if she had her womb removed ( at whatever age). And it is equally true that a bitch MAY die from pyometra if discovered too late AND that pyometra is far from rare. It's also true that anaesthesia is less risky than in the past.

BUT it is equally true that you can't cut everything out or off a dog which MAY turn cancerous in due course. There be nothing left of it! At present, there is strong medical suspicion that the removal of sex organs may exponentially increase the risk of other - and far more aggressive, non-responsive - type of cancers. Be that bone cancer or a myriad of others. It is highly unclear whether by reducing or eliminating the likelihood of one ( e.g. mammary, ovary, testicular) occuring, we aren't thereby inviting or actively promoting others. And we haven't even touched on the increased risk for ACL ruptures and other ligament issues which are suspected to be affected by neutering.

People in the 50's or 60's didn't neuter their pets for health reasons. They neutered them to avoid unwanted litters, to stop their males from straying, to stop Fido humping Aunt Geraldine's leg when she came to visit. Or because the male might get iffy with neighbouring males and cause a dispute, because the bitch would soil the house in dripping blood everywhere, or because they believed that a neutered dog somehow trained itself. It had nothing to do with health.

Similarly, pre-pubescent castrations and spays were an act of necessity from humane shelters in the US, faced with the horrific task of euthanizing hundreds of thousands of perfectly healthy dogs who couldn't be re-homed in time. At least by neutering them BEFORE the puppy or dog left the shelter, it eliminated the risk that this dog would contribute to the overflowing shelters and that even MORE pups would be put to sleep. Again, it had nothing to do with "health".

It wasn't until the 80's and 90's that "health benefits" were wildly touted...and then they lacked all thorough foundation. It was little more than a sales pitch from vets. It wasn't until a decade ago - when incidentally, pre-pubescent neuters became highly fashionable in the USA outside shelter situations - that people started to realise that maybe things weren't so straight forward as they seemed. Incontinent young bitches, inexplicable behavioural issues, ACL rupture incidents going through the roof, peculiar and persistant food and skin issues, and and, and.

And the dogs still got cancer. More than ever before. Even though not ovarian or testicular one.

Is it all linked or intertwined with early neutering somehow? I don't know. What I DO know is that nobody KNOWS. There is no veterinary medical expert on the planet who KNOWS for sure. Nor is there any such expert who states that they are.

To be clear: I am not against neutering. I've had neutered dogs, i've had intact dogs and I am absolutly fine with either. But it definitely IS a risk- benefit consideration for an owner and it SHOULD involve careful consideration and MUCH thought. To present it as an easy& purely win-win scenario all round is incorrect.

My personal take: before taking an irreversible medical step on behalf of a creature who say no say in the matter ...it really behooves us to err on the side of caution. Meaning to wait, if at all possible, until the dog has at least physically and emotionally matured.

And we shouldn't peddle and promote the supposed benefits of early spaying until we fully understand ALL the implications from it. Which we don't know. We really don't.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I'd like to respond to the above, if I may:
> 
> It's true that a bitch can't get pyometra if she had her womb removed ( at whatever age). And it is equally true that a bitch MAY die from pyometra if discovered too late AND that pyometra is far from rare. It's also true that anaesthesia is less risky than in the past.
> 
> ...


Bitches were still spayed though. There were maybe more entire bitches about most were spayed if they were not being bred from. I worked as a vet nurse from the early 70s and we were spaying bitches most days. We were also operating on bitches with pyo most weeks, and also on bitches with mammary tumours - those that did not have secondaries and were worth operating on. There were also bitches coming in all the time with false pregnancies. These were routinely put on ovarid as were bitches that were having inconveniently timed seasons - and do you know, these bitches almost inevitably got pyo later in life.
Spaying bitches routinely has done away with all the misery of these conditions and has allowed owners and bitches to have a happier life.

As for other cancers - well I think we can see that human cancer is far more common than it was. I do not think many men are castrated and I have never seen that women after a hysterectomy are more prone to cancer. Or is it just that with modern diagnostic aids it can be picked up more easily and treated so everyone is more aware of it.

Obviously not anything but a personal statistic but I have had one incontinent bitch and she was spayed after her first season. I have had one bitch get bone cancer and she was the only entire bitch I have owned.

Personally I think that the risk of pyo is a very good reason to spay a bitch, the risk of mammary cancer is maybe a bit more clouded but the elimination of the risk of an unwanted litter, the keeping of a bitch who is going to have 6 to 8 weeks of the year unable to have normal walks and possibly a further 3 or 4 months a year suffering the very distressing effects of a false pregnancy kind of make spaying a bitch a no brainer for most people.
In the good old days the bitch would probably be let out of the door to wander as usual and then would produce a litter of pups which would either be drowned or found homes - so all these problems did not rear their head in the same way.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I also have one that is on propalin for life. It would be lovely if it cured it but my vet certainly expects any bitch with spay incontinence to need medication for life.
> 
> I have to disagree with you here. There are many important reasons why spaying a bitch is advantageous. There are very few with castration. Recovery period is not a valid reason for making the choice. Any small animal vet will be spaying hundreds of bitches in a year, it is a very routine op so no need to choose a special surgeon!


Blitz, maybe you misunderstood: I didn't mean that the OP should request a "Specalised Spay Surgeon". As far as I know there isn't even such a thing. But a spay, unlike a castration, is undeniably a far more invasive surgical procedure which requires far more surgical skill and competency than a neuter. There may be "routine castratrations" that the most inexperienced, wobbly handed young vet can successfully perform, but there is no "routine spay". It is invasive, elective surgery and you better know well what exactly you are doing and WHEN in the cycle you are doing it, or you may end up with a dog requiring medication for incontinence for the remainder of its life.

It's been a while since I owned a female - even though I do keep abreast with relevant reasearch in the great "if, why and when" spay and neuter debate - so I am unsure what specifically you are referring to when you state "there are many important reasons why spaying a bitch is advantagous". Aside from eliminating pyometra and reducing the statistical risk of mammary tumors....what are these advantages? Purely in terms of health advantages, that is. I can't think of one.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Blitz, maybe you misunderstood: I didn't mean that the OP should request a "Specalised Spay Surgeon". As far as I know there isn't even such a thing. But a spay, unlike a castration, is undeniably a far more invasive surgical procedure which requires far more surgical skill and competency than a neuter. There may be "routine castratrations" that the most inexperienced, wobbly handed young vet can successfully perform, but there is no "routine spay". It is invasive, elective surgery and you better know well what exactly you are doing and WHEN in the cycle you are doing it, or you may end up with a dog requiring medication for incontinence for the remainder of its life.
> 
> It's been a while since I owned a female - even though I do keep abreast with relevant reasearch in the great "if, why and when" spay and neuter debate - so I am unsure what specifically you are referring to when you state "there are many important reasons why spaying a bitch is advantagous". Aside from eliminating pyometra and reducing the statistical risk of mammary tumors....what are these advantages? Purely in terms of health advantages, that is. I can't think of one.


You quote what I have said - did I say medical reasons. There are many advantages across the board, though of course you could include false pregnancies in the medical reasons as they can be very upsetting to the dog and can even cause mastitis.

Of course spaying a bitch is more invasive than castrating a dog. I would not want a young just qualified vet even looking at my dog, let alone operating on it for anything - but spays are routine and in busy small animal practices every vet will soon have experience. Some are neater at sewing up than others but does not necessarily mean they did a worse job inside the bitch. I saw the sewing a vet had done on a bitch of mine she spayed. I had no complaints about the spaying, but when I needed a dog to have an entropion correction I did makes sure the vet with the neater sewing did the job.

When I was assisting at bitch spays the worst job I ever saw (bordering on terrifying) was by the boss of the practice! I have also seen a young vet take 45 minutes to spay a young cat - a job that normally takes between 5 and 10 minutes. So you are right, some surgeons are better than others but not sure how Jo Public can find out which is best in a practice.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Blitz said:


> You quote what I have said - did I say medical reasons. There are many advantages across the board, though of course you could include false pregnancies in the medical reasons as they can be very upsetting to the dog and can even cause mastitis.
> 
> Of course spaying a bitch is more invasive than castrating a dog. I would not want a young just qualified vet even looking at my dog, let alone operating on it for anything - but spays are routine and in busy small animal practices every vet will soon have experience. Some are neater at sewing up than others but does not necessarily mean they did a worse job inside the bitch. I saw the sewing a vet had done on a bitch of mine she spayed. I had no complaints about the spaying, but when I needed a dog to have an entropion correction I did makes sure the vet with the neater sewing did the job.
> 
> When I was assisting at bitch spays the worst job I ever saw (bordering on terrifying) was by the boss of the practice! I have also seen a young vet take 45 minutes to spay a young cat - a job that normally takes between 5 and 10 minutes. So you are right, some surgeons are better than others but not sure how Jo Public can find out which is best in a practice.


No, you didn't say medical reasons- entirely fair point. Plus, I hadn't read your last message since it arrived during me typing whilst simultaneously cooking...so our posts effectively crossed.

The reason why I advised the OP to ask pesky questions and to hunt for a great surgeon are precisely for the reasons you mentioned above: because Jo Public doesn't stand next to the surgeon during the procedure, because veterinary surgeons don't have to publish their track record of failed, problematic surgeries. We don't know and will never know whether the bitch became incontinent not as a result of the spay per se but due to, for example, trauma to the urethra or bladder during the spay. NOT an uncommon occurence, incidentally. And something which could and should have been avoided by a skilled surgeon.

The best we can do is ask around ( other local dog owners), ask pertinant questions to the vet - because I tell you, before I let anyone near my perfectly healthy young female I really would ask them a great many things in regards to their complication rates and they better have the answers - pray that even the most diligent and competent surgeon doesn't have an "off" day on that day...and err on the side of caution. Because IF it goes pear shaped, I have noone to blame than myself. It IS elective surgery.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> No, you didn't say medical reasons- entirely fair point. Plus, I hadn't read your last message since it arrived during me typing whilst simultaneously cooking...so our posts effectively crossed.
> 
> The reason why I advised the OP to ask pesky questions and to hunt for a great surgeon are precisely for the reasons you mentioned above: *because Jo **Public doesn't stand next to the surgeon during the procedure, *because veterinary surgeons don't have to publish their track record of failed, problematic surgeries. We don't know and will never know whether the bitch became incontinent not as a result of the spay per se but due to, for example, trauma to the urethra or bladder during the spay. NOT an uncommon occurence, incidentally. And something which could and should have been avoided by a skilled surgeon.
> 
> The best we can do is ask around ( other local dog owners), ask pertinant questions to the vet - because I tell you, before I let anyone near my perfectly healthy young female I really would ask them a great many things in regards to their complication rates and they better have the answers - pray that even the most diligent and competent surgeon doesn't have an "off" day on that day...and err on the side of caution. Because IF it goes pear shaped, I have noone to blame than myself. It IS elective surgery.


Actually I was given the opportunity to do just that following a 'strong' debate with my relatively new vet on the pros and cons of Laparoscopic versus traditional spaying.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Twiggy said:


> Actually I was given the opportunity to do just that following a 'strong' debate with my relatively new vet on the pros and cons of Laparoscopic versus traditional spaying.


Most excellent! What an opportunity and experience.

I went with a slightly different approach when I had one of my boy's neutered. I told my ( longstanding) vet: "I trust, respect and admire you and your competency. Which is why I hand piece of my heart over to you in good faith. And if I don't get him back in sparkling health and vigour...I do know where you live and Satan will be a pussycat in comparison. No pressure!"

He laughed.

Me thinks, somewhat nervously.

But you know it was the oddest thing: I waited for my boy to get drowsy from the sedative, took my other boy for a walk, and at the end of the walk had a call from the vet: he was done, fine and ready for collection. I could hear him woof in the background. 1 1/2 hours later and nobody would have known that the dog had anything done to him. No problems with stitches, drowsiness, nada. I guess my vet had no yearning to encounter a revved-up Satan...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> ... it is equally true that *you can't cut everything out or off a dog which MAY turn cancerous* in due course.
> There be nothing left of it!
> 
> At present, there is strong medical suspicion that the removal of sex organs may exponentially increase
> ...


How long would U like to wait until the dog has *matured*, by Ur scale?
12-Mos? 2-Yrs? 4-Yrs? what, exactly?

- juvie-desex began in the early-1970s in USA municipal shelters.
All the highlighted hogwash about supposed dread after-effects are sheer fear tactics.

Millions upon millions of dogs AND cats AND kittens AND puppies have been desexed, since the 1960s,
at 6-MO - without any serious side-effects.

Millions upon millions have been desexed before 4-MO in the USA alone, as well as the millions who
have been desexed in Australia; their annual conference of Vet-Nurses published a retrospective
study of all dogs & cats who'd been desexed as juveniles [pre-puberty] in shelters, with the various
outcomes included, in the late-1990s. They concluded that it was a safe procedure, & in fact was
considerably safer than S/N on older animals.

- the risk of mammary-cancer & / or pyometra is massively larger than the risk of osteosarcoma, etc.
None of those other risks is a fraction of the risk to an intact-female of Pyo or breast-tumors.
For the record, in the Nordic country that BANS desex for anything but a health crisis, *60%*
of all intact-females have had at least one case of Pyo before they are 5-YO. Do 60% of juvie-desex F pups
get ANYthing whatever? No - they don't.

Suppositions & suspicions & maybes are not factual risks. An abdominal procedure is never risk-free - 
however, the stats are on any F-pup over 2-pounds weight who is others=wise healthy - no virus,
current infections, etc - the sooner it's done, the safer it is. There are fewer complications with 8-WO pups
than with 6-MO bitches, in point of FACT - not suppositions, not suspected, not perhaps. Stats.

Feel free to scare-monger as much as U please. I've read the research in the USA, Sweden, Oz, etc.
I've concluded that the evidence is overwhelming that S/N is a better option than intact, for any dog
or cat who is not a potential breeding candidate. For owners of males, it avoids the many hassles
involved in rearing or keeping an intact-male, especially for novices who are certain their sweet little boy
will never change... surprise, surprise. The infant U bring home from the nursery isn't the SAME as
the 12-YO who's raising merry H*** in the neighborhood, is he? Let alone the 15-YO who's head is full
of nothing but girls, sexual impulses, fascination & frustration, & whose brain must be dragged into
any other subject kicking & squealing in protest.

If U aren't going to breed the dog, or the cat, desex her or him - period.
If spay-surgeries on mares weren't enormous operations, i'd suggest those, too. 

"Rebuttal to 'Early S/N Considerations for the Canine Athlete' " - PDF
www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf‎


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> I haven't read the other replies, & will no doubt be crucified after being shot for expressing my opinion
> & relaying my experiences, but i'm gonna do it, anyway.
> 
> The bog-standard age to desex BOTH sexes in the USA has been 6-MO since the 1950s or '60s.
> ...


Where early neutering is the norm - then you have little to compare it with in terms of older entire dogs and maturity - in the UK we do - and there are frequently significant differences between those neutered early - appearance and personality - moreso in males - but both genders.

Neutering doesn't remove hormone production - this comes from the pituitary gland and as this remains - and continues to generate the same hormones as it would in an entire dog.

Of late, I understand hormone measurement is being used as a non-invasive method of ascertaining whether bitches have been neutered or not - as neutered bitches will have considerably higher blood levels of hormones than entire bitches. (Males - unless they've opted for the canine equivalent of a vasectomy - and I only know of one male who's had this done, then it's determining its status is clearly far easier).

There ARE rescues in the UK neutering 6 to 8 week pups - and I've heard of more than one instance of these bitches displaying regular erratic behaviour at regular intervals throughout their lives - directly linked to season intervals.

Going slightly O/T but still related - I know of some bright spark vets who've opted to neuter bitches during a phantom - and the owners - like many pet owners had total faith in their vet - one of these bitches was one I bred - I only found out about it 18 months later after the owner, at her wits ends - was trying to work out why her neutered bitch starting exhibiting VERY odd behaviour every 6 months or so including some discharge (which technically should not be possible) - she didn't make the connection until I seasons - and was then told what had happened 

I can't speak personally with regards to incontinence from early spay - but I do know of others who have had problems - and as I understand it - it's then a lifelong problem


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Where early neutering is the norm - then you have little to compare it with in terms of older entire dogs and maturity - in the UK we do - and there are frequently significant differences between those neutered early - appearance and personality - moreso in males - but both genders.
> 
> *Neutering doesn't remove hormone production - this comes from the pituitary gland and as this remains - and continues to generate the same hormones as it would in an entire dog.
> *


Rather unlikely as male dogs are neutered to reduce or remove the production of testosterone and bitches stop producing oestrogen and progesterone. There will still be a small amount produced in the adrenal gland - I do not think the pituitary gland. The majority of sex hormones will be produced in the ovaries and testicles so removing them removes the production of the hormones.

Of course neutered males will not behave in the same way as entire males - that is the whole point! Look at other animals that are routinely castrated unless specifically kept for breeding. Cattle, sheep and horses in particular. A bull, stallion or ram is a completely different shape from its castrated counterpart and will behave in a completely different way. The entire versions are dangerous to each other and to humans in many cases. The younger they are castrated the more the difference. A colt castrated at 6 months will be very different to one done in later life. A lot of people leave them till they are 2 or 3 if they have the facilities so that they have more character and a bulkier neck and body. Why would anyone think that castrating dogs will not give similar changes. An entire dog will be bulkier, often bolder and more likely to want to challenge other male dogs. Because of the way we have bred and kept dogs it is not such a startling difference as in other species but surely it must still exist.

Female hormones seem to only be there for breeding, not for character or body shape so we do not see the same differences in bitches.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Where early neutering is the norm - then you have little to compare it with in terms of older entire dogs and maturity - in the UK we do - and there are frequently significant differences between those neutered early - appearance and personality - moreso in males - but both genders.
> 
> Neutering doesn't remove hormone production - this comes from the pituitary gland and as this remains - and continues to generate the same hormones as it would in an entire dog.
> 
> ...


I can though. I've had all my bitches spayed before their first season over the past 35-40 years and I've never had an incontinent bitch. Neither has my daughter or my late sister. Some of them have lived to 16 yrs old plus too.

I have a very good friend who always has her bitches spayed later and certainly the last five have all suffered from old age incontinence.

This is always an emotive subject and it has to come down to personal preference, research and consultation with your vet.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> How long would U like to wait until the dog has *matured*, by Ur scale?
> 12-Mos? 2-Yrs? 4-Yrs? what, exactly?
> 
> - juvie-desex began in the early-1970s in USA municipal shelters.
> ...


Why, I think the unique, objective and respectful way in which you engage with fellow forum members who disagree with your personal conclusions is just adorable!

Unlike most of us who are wading through complex and often contradictatory evidence, you don't tentatively and cautiously conclude what might represent the best option for YOUR pet - heck, you KNOW the answer for everybodys animal. Spay and neuter the lot if you don't breed them, got it.

Let's cheerfully ignore all the evidence based veterinary research who , like the rest us Ignoramuses also " cautiously conclude and tentatively suggest" that gonadectomy and ovariectomy, may be a mixed blessing whose benefits and risks should be carefully evaluated. What do they know. Yeah, yeah those bleedin' studies concluding that neutered dogs were found to have a higher incidence of Hemangiasarcoma, transitional cell carcinoma, diabetes, abnormal fear responses, and, and, and...they MUST have been all confounded. Worthless. Since they don't tally with YOUR beliefs, lets just discard all suggestions which doesn't support YOUR premise.

THAT'S the way to go about it. Not very scientifically sound, but hey-ho, science is so boooooring with their insistence on objectivity and evidence. Underpinning ones personal belief system with selective studies supporting it and dismissing all those who don't is waaaaaay more fun.

May I thus take the opportunity to apologize for the criminally insane advice given to an uncertain fellow member "to err on the side of caution and carefully weigh up the pros AND cons" regarding her female's spay. Because clearly, you KNOW the answer what is best for her dog and erring on the side of caution when subjecting a pet to irreversible, elective surgery wasn't it.

Got it.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Not what you asked for - but is there a specific reason why you can't have your male neutered? Apologies if you already said that!
> 
> But IF that is an option, I would DEFINITELY consider doing that. It is an easier, faster, MUCH less invasive surgery than a spay. The males I had neutered were happily running around the
> same day and you'd never know that they had anything done to them. They neither changed in character, nor fur appearance, nor anything else. The ONLY alteration I had to make was to decrease their food slightly forthwith.
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Why, I think the unique, objective and respectful way in which you engage with fellow forum members
> who disagree with your personal conclusions is just adorable!


And i think the all-too-common & frequent practice of *conflating the stats from 2 different sets,
juvenile desex on pets under 4-MO & pubertal desex on pets from 5 to 8-MO,* is equally adorable. 

*Pubertal desex*, done around 6-MO, was the bog-standard age in the USA before i was born.
FYI, i'm over-50 - that's a helluva lot of pets who've been desexed, in that time period. It's also a huge
pool for retrospective statistics on health-outcomes for desexed pets, compared to intact pets.

*juvenile desex on pets under 4-MO* began when i entered college at 18-YO, so yes, it's more-recent, 
but given the vast numbers of pets who've been desexed to stop the constant production of unwanted 
or unplanned litters from adopted pets, there's an even-larger pool of stats for juvie-desex safety... 
since that was over *40-yrs ago.*

It's been sufficiently long that the AVMA has a position-paper on juvie-desex surgery, which explains
that it is a very safe procedure, & is fully supported by the American Veterinary Medical Assoc.

Their counterparts in Australia, the Aussie small-animal vets, reached the same conclusion.
The vet-nursing annual conference in 1999, if memory serves, published their own research on JUVIE
desex over the previous 15-years which stated categorically that juvie-desex was safer than pubertal,
& had no long-term problematic effects associated with it - despite all the ominous predictions from
Aussie breeders, who didn't like the idea any better than USA-breeders.

So to conclude:
- *Pubertal desex* on pets between 5 & 8-MO isn't "early"; it's standard, with a very long established history.

- *Juvenile desex on pets under 4-MO* is more-recent, but it's been done for over 40-years.
That's hardly 'yesterday' - its safety is well-established.

- *Conflating the two sets of patients*: standard pubertal-desex & earlier juvenile desex -
is frequently done as a scare-tactic by folks who strongly disapprove of juvie-desex. How one *"feels"*
about a healthy 8-WO to 12 or 14-WO puppy or kitten being desexed before leaving a shelter or rescue
shouldn't be the deciding factor; given the compliance rate for desexing pets AFTER adoption in the USA
is only *60% at best*, even when the adopter signs a contract stating they'll be fined & / or forced
to surrender any pet who reaches 8-MO & is still intact, i fail to see what other options shelters had.

They could, of course, simply euthanize entire litters wholesale - it's been done in the USA, we have
a long-standing history of a surplus-pet holocaust, with *FIFTEEN MILLION homeless pets euthanized 
every year, for over a decade.*

Is that a better solution than juvenile-desex before adoption? Not in my opinion; U may think so.

As for the remark about _"juvenile desex becoming more popular outside shelters" - _ Who's doing that?
Where did U hear about it? The USA is supposedly the global hotbed for juvie-desex, & i have not heard
of any large or even medium increase in non-shelter, non-rescue juvie desex.

I HAVE, however, publicly suggested that breeders who want to assure themselves that their pups
or kittens actually ARE desexed when sold on a pet-contract, spay or neuter them before they release them.
 Maybe my one-person campaign is having an effect! ... Ya think? 

Here's one breeder who does just that - 
a vet who breeds Irish Wolfhounds, & includes a *free desex* for any puppy-buyer as an option,
before the pup leaves his home for the buyer's:
Tiny URL:
Early Spay/neuter [...5c9wl3]

full URL:
Early Spay/neuter

Excerpt from DVM Dick Rosebruck;


> "...over the past 25 to 30 years a few progressive animal shelters began various early sterilization
> programs, with uniformly consistent success stories. If they are spayed or neutered before they leave
> the shelter  they cannot become contributors. Puppies & kittens are being neutered as young as 6 to 8-WO.
> The development of new anesthetics & surgical procedures has made these procedures as safe or safer than
> ...


Please do bear in mind, once again, this is JUVENILE desex, or PRE-PUBERTAL DESEX - 
which isn't the case with the dog in the OP, who is *8-MO*, not 8-WO or 12-WO.

Constantly lumping the 2 into the same heap is very misleading, & i still have not heard of any "large"
or any increase whatever, in the popularity of pre-pubertal desex OUTSIDE of shelters & rescues - 
the vast majority continue to use it as their standard for any adopted pup or kitten.

At this point, the only shelters or rescues in the USA who DON't use juvie-desex before placing a pup
or a kitten - IOW, allowing the adopter to remove the pup or kitten intact from the shelter or rescue - 
are either rural, in extremely-poor states [South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi], or both, or are
backward holdouts whose city, county or township Admin can't see the intelligence of funding juvie
desex, & the massive cost of overseeing *"Did they or didn't they desex?" * follow-up programs.

Personal Experience:
I found a cat crying in the shrubbery during my walk home, one night. I had no means of catching nor
of carrying the cat; when i got home, i persuaded my mother [with difficulty] to go back with me in her car,
with a crate & food to lure the cat in - so that she could go to the shelter in the morning.

I succeeded in capturing the black cat, who turned out to be a young Burmese; she was frightened,
a bit leggy but very very clean, had no collar, & was extremely hungry. She was obviously SOMEONE's -
she was also obviously in heat, in full call. :incazzato:

I phoned the shelter as soon as we got home, arranged to have her picked-up, & put myself down
as first-call for adoption - i couldn't keep her myself, but i was dam*ed if another healthy young cat
was going to die in the shelter, & be burned in their furnace.

A week later, no owner had appeared to reclaim her; i went to the VB ACC & signed the paperwork,
& the next ACC-truck headed toward my neighborhood dropped her off at my vet's office, which was very
kind, as otherwise i'd have had an over 10-mile walk: Hampton Roads Transit *doesn't allow pets* on any
bus, except for SDs.

I met her at my vet's office; she'd put on a pound or so, was no longer in heat, & was very affectionate
& curious. I spent a half-hour playing with her & getting to know her; she'd been a real favorite at the shelter,
as she warmed up within a day or two & really loved attention. She was only 6 to 8-MO; old-enuf to breed,
but still very much a youngster.

I asked my vet to test her immediately for FIV - if she was positive, we wouldn't be going further.
I had to be able to place her with an adopter, & i wasn't going to risk exposing other cats to a
carrier by rehoming her to someone who, no matter what promises they made, might very well let
her roam at large, just like her eejit former-owner. :nonod: Thankfully, she was negative.

She got her 1st Feline-leuk vaccine & her rabies, was examined & found to have no health issues - 
other than a tendency to wriggle & try to jump, she was an exemplary patient. Her fecal-float
was also negative - no intestinal parasites, altho that didn't clear her for Toxo-g.

I arranged for a boarding-kennel on VB Blvd to pick her up & keep her, while their next-door vet
spayed her & returned her to their care; 10-days later, she came back to me, & was picked up by
a cat-rescue as a fully-vaccinated, MICROCHIPPED, & desexed, highly-adoptable friendly cat.

The whole thing cost me over $350 - even with a discount spay, as she was a street-stray. But that included
10-days of kennel boarding, AND post-spay pain meds, as well as a pre-spay blood panel for all organ
function enzymes, etc - as a precaution for general-anaesthesia. She sailed thru it all - the kennel staff
liked her just as much as the shelter staff, she wasn't perturbed by all the shifting & strangeness.

All i got to keep was my crate, returned by the boarding-kennel.  She was a real sweetie, but i couldn't
have her for myself - but i DID get her off the street, & safely placed in an approved home by a rescue.
Score! :thumbsup:

Fast-forward 4-months:
VB ACC phones me to tell me i'm going to be charged with a misdemeanor.
The boarding-kennel / attached vet were supposed to have FAXed her desex form to the ACC - 
they didn't, & i'm going to have to go to court to prove i neutered my adoptee. 
I explain the subsequent events, assure them she's definitely no longer fertile, & FAX my copy
of my BILL for the spay-surgery at the VB Blvd vet's clinic.
2 days later, they phone back - OK, i'm off the hook, charges are not going to be filed.

If they had DESEXED her before releasing her, all this nonsense would be avoided - there'd be no need
to hunt thru files & try to find adopters who may have moved, rehomed the pet themselves, may claim
the pet has died, etc, & investigate such claims to be sure repro-intact adoptees aren't making babies
to stuff the already-overcrowded, outdated shelter with even more unwanted, surplus pets.

SINCE THEN - shortly before i moved from VA, the VB ACC shelter that had been on Raby Road since
sometime in the mid- to late-1960s in a small cinderblock building, *moved -* to a nice, big, new,
fairly well-designed shelter on Birdneck Rd.

The outdated & outgrown Raby Rd shelter was a one-story, cinderblock building in the shape of an E - 
the long stem was the admin & offices area, the 3 wings were kennel-areas with I/O runs for dogs, & all
the outdoor runs connected to the interior kennel runs went either into a between-wings courtyard,
or those on the outer sides were enclosed by a perimeter fence.
The cat section was at the far end of the office-stem block, completely separate from the dogs.
Small exotics [birds, Guinea pigs & other pocket-pets, herps... ] were left in the hallway of the office-stem,
between the doors to the 3 kennel-wings.

There was a 12 x 14 room with a deep double-sink of S/S for washing bowls, garden hoses to hose out
interior kennels, a small lobby with bulletin boards for lost pets & health info [rabies vax, any viral
outbreaks, PSAs asking owners to license & put ownership info on collars, microchip info, etc].

There was no segregation area for contagious animals, nowhere for injured animals - no sick-bay,
no S/N clinic space, no negative-pressure airlocks to sequester outbreaks, ... not even the foot-tubs
used by Norfolk SPCA for visitors to wipe their soles before entering & after exiting each kennel area
or small-pet room, to minimize transport & cross-contamination. Sealed concrete floors, low ceilings,
one-ply cyclone fencing to separate all kenneled dogs side-by-side, allowing urine to run from one to 
another, or vomit, diarrhea, etc - NO way to prevent potential exposure from one animal to another.

Here's Norfolk, VA's, outdated & outgrown makeshift animal-control shelter:








It's a converted bus-garage, with echoing 30-ft high ceilings, no AC in the heat & humidity, noisy,
no insulation, sheet-metal walls & roof, either too dam* hot or too bloody cold, always damp, the open
floor filled with 6-ft tall modular cyclone-fencing pens to confine any dog over 30#, & rollaway modular 
CUBE cages for smaller dogs & cats; the vast majority 2-ft cubes, a few on the bottom 2 x 4-ft doubles, 
side by side. The cube-cages are 3-high modules on wheels.

Their idea of "expansion" when they were lambasted for killing too may pets after too short a stay
was to install "temporary" outdoor kennels under flat tarp-roofs: each run is 8-ft x 10-ft, open to the
current temperature & the pipe frames stand on a concrete pad. The dogs' only refuge from standing
or lying or sitting on the cold concrete in winter is a plastic one-piece molded "bed" 6-inches high, or a
sling-type pipe-frame fabric mesh bed - not much for comfort.
The "temporary" kennels are now over 10-years old, with no plans for a new ACC building.

Here's a Va Beach ACC truck - even with a p*ss-poor old shelter, they had decent trucks:








Here's the *nifty NEW shelter in Va Beach*:








I don't have a floor-plan of the interior; i know there were huge arguments about would it or would
it NOT have an on-site clinic for vax, S/N, Dx, & treatment, or would there be a sick-bay for injured & ill.
The city didn't want to install either; the local pet-rescue & pet-owning community, DID - very much.
I have no idea how that was settled, nor do i know if the city-fathers & token-females succeeded
in defeating the negative air-pressure locks to minimize contagion - that was also a bone of contention.

Here's their adoption rules - which are confusing:
Virginia Beach Bureau of Animal Control | Virginia Beach, Virginia

they list fees for "intact" as well as "desexed at city cost" & "desexed NOT at city cost" adoptees,
but claim in another paragraph that ALL PETS are desexed before they leave the shelter - so which is it?
I have no idea.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

But having said all of above if lily takes after mum and comes into season at around 12 mths bertie will be all clear by then. But knowing my luck I will have him done and she will come into season a week later


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

swarthy said:


> There ARE rescues in the UK neutering 6 to 8 week pups - and I've heard of more than one instance
> of these bitches displaying regular *erratic behaviour* at regular intervals throughout their lives -
> directly linked to *season intervals*.


Specifically, WHAT "erratic behavior"?

How can a female mammal without *ovaries* & without leftover ovarian tissue, HAVE "seasons"
AKA estrous periods, at regular intervals?

It's equally remarkable that these marvelous creatures manage to be SO regular in the absence
of ovaries, as bitches who HAVE ovaries aren't always "regular" - my Akita came into estrus a full 3-mos
ahead of schedule, simply because we attended the 1998 USA-apdt annual conference, & a Dane there
entered her first estrus unexpectedly, at 7-MO - to my knowledge, she was the only in-estrus F we met.

That was also the only major aberration in my Akita's estrous schedule, which only varied by maybe
a week to 10-days over her 4.5-Year lifespan, after her initial estrus at 7-MO - but i was frankly lucky.
LOTS of owners & breeders contend with bitches whose estrus may be erratic, silent, or delayed -
it's hardly rare!  So... why are these females AFTER ovariohysteractomy, so incredibly 'regular'?

I think this is the biggest old-husbands' hoax i've heard in my life. I'd love to see a VET's explanation.
Do U have a link to anything *from a vet* on this topic of post-spay Fs desexed before puberty, 
who somehow manage to have "erratic behavior" *every 6 months*?

I'll be utterly frank: i think this is fantasy, until proven otherwise. Unless some very-few dogs
have leftover ovarian-tissue due to unforgivably sloppy surgery, there's no rational explanation - 
*none*.

*Edit:*
i must add that two-thirds of my adoptee dogs in group-classes or in individual B-mod in VA had been
juvie-desex pups, adopted into a second, 3rd, 4th, etc, home. NONE OF THE FEMALES in the 10-yrs
plus that i lived in Tidewater-VA had any of this supposedly "estrous" bi-annual behavior.
.
.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

snoopydo said:


> But having said all of above if lily takes after mum and comes into season at around 12 mths bertie will be all clear by then. But knowing my luck I will have him done and she will come into season a week later


snoopydo, is there anyone who you could entrust with Bertie IF your Lily does come into season soon after neutering? A family member, a friend, a paid pet sitter looking after pets in their home, not yours?

I couldn't tell you what YOU should do - that's a decision only an owner can and should make - but I can tell you what I would do if I found myself in your predicament:

I'd have my male neutered tomorrow, beg, bribe, pay and charm any friends or family who would be able and prepared to look after him IF my female does come into season soon after. If there isn't anyone able or suitable, I'd look into using a pro pet sitter ( and yes, this will cost) during the dangerous time ( whose duration isn't all that long).

The problem with having a quandary - like you are presently in- is that we can get stuck in "analysis paralyses". Whereby we go over the pros and cons over and over and over, completly lose focus, chop and change repeatedly...and then NOTHING productive gets done. Which isn't of any use to our pets , or ourselves.

Sometimes it helps to backtrack a few steps and to refocus. Making yourself a question and answer checklist can be helpful.

Something like: Q:What is the PRINCIPLE, most pressing, aim here? A: To prevent Lily getting pregnant. Q: Out of the 2 intact dogs I have, who, at present, is the most suitable candidate to be neutered, Lily or Bertie? A:...( well, that is something only YOU can decide for YOUR dogs!) ,Q: which surgery has the most surgical risks, which surgery has the least? A: A spay is more involved than a neuter.Q: what would Bertie gain from being done, what would Lily gain from being done?

And so on and so forth. BUT....at the end of the Q & A you HAVE to make a decision. And since Lily's season may be imminent, you got to implement that decision straight away.

There is ONE other option which you may want to consider and discuss with your vet and that is chemical castration for Bertie via a Suprelorin Chip ( if, for whatever reason, you can't bring yourself to neuter him right now). Whilst I would personally advise against it for a myriad of reasons, it is another option and better than doing nothing.

Wishing you and your furries all the best


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> How can a female mammal without *ovaries* & without leftover ovarian tissue, HAVE "seasons"
> AKA estrous periods, at regular intervals?
> .
> .


Presumably for the same reason why many amputees experience excrutiating pain in a limb that is no longer there.

Google "phantom limb pain". It is a well established, widely researched, yet mystifying medical condition which no doctor has, as yet, been able to fully understand. Hypothesis on the "why" abound, but no one has a definite answer.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Right decision made we will have Bertie neutered on the 28 in 2 weeks and let lily have her 1st season then have her spayed 3 mths after if lily does start her season within I have a friend or my mum will have Bertie m partner did point out that I'm worrying about something that may not happen already as she may not even have a season til 12 months anyway so I feel more relieved now as I wasn't feeling happy about a pre-season spay then in a few months time they will both be done and no worries of a unwanted pregnancy would like to say a really big thank you for all of your help guidance and advice you've been brilliant the pro / con list did help lots. Thank you x Julie xx


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:
> 
> 
> > Not what you asked for - but is there a specific reason why you can't have your male neutered? Apologies if you already said that!
> ...


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Rocco see above post all been sorted x xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I can't speak personally re *incontinence from early spay*, but I do know of others who've had problems,
> and as I understand it - it's then *a lifelong problem*.


When U say "early spay", please stipulate - 
Are U talking of *pubertal desex between 5 & 8-MO*,
*juvenile desex between 14-WO & 5-MO*, or *pediatric desex between 6-WO & 12-WO?*

There are folks who refer to anything before 2-YO in dogs under giant-size as "early",
& any desex before 3-YO or even 4-YO in giant breeds over 125# as "early".
As toy-breeds often enter estrus at 6-MO & not a few have a first-estrus at only 5-MO / 20-WO,
that's quite a long wait until this mythical "maturity" - & for giants, that's over half their lifespan! :lol:

some research on urinary incontinence & spay surgery:
PDF from researchGate.com
'The association between acquired urinary sphincter mechanism incompetence in bitches 
and early spaying: A case-control study'
B De Bleser, DC Brodbelt, NG Gregory - *The Veterinary Journal*, 2011 - Elsevier


> ABSTRACT
> A case-control study was conducted between Dec-2005 & Aug-2006 in London
> (1) to estimate the strength of association between early ovariohysterectomy (spay) & urinary incontinence
> (sphincter mechanism incompetence),
> ...


Note that in this study, we don't know - as we aren't told - how OLD the 'older bitches' might be.

Age is a definite associated-factor for urinary incompetence in female mammals - please see
the numerous advertisements directed at post-menopause women who leak urine when they laugh,
sneeze, cough, etc.  However, that's NOT the result of "spaying" - it's the decline of estrogen
post-menopause. Unless U want to contend that menopause is the post-50 equivalent of OVH / spay
surgery, i'd say AGE is highly-relevent, & further say that bitches who become incontinent AFTER
age 7-yrs or more can't blame urine-leaks on spay surgery, unless it was done less than 6-mos before. :lol:

*What can we learn from this study?*
_The largest risk-factor for urinary incontinence in UK bitches post-spay
is being docked._ shock, horror!... 
______________________________________

2:
Acquired urinary incontinence in bitches: its incidence and relationship to neutering practices - Thrusfield - 2008 - Journal of Small Animal Practice - Wiley Online Library

EXCERPT from abstract:


> Information was collected using questionnaires, & data on 809 bitches, of which 22 developed AUI,
> were obtained. The estimated incidence rates in neutered & entire animals were 0.0174 and 0.0022
> per animal-year, respectively (95% confidence intervals: 0.0110, 0.0275 & 0.0009, 0.0058, respectively).
> 
> ...


________________________________________
3:
Early spay-neuter: Clinical considerations:
DVM, PhD, DACT Margaret V. Root Kustritz
From the Dept of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, Univ. of Minnesota, College of Vet-Medicine; St. Paul, MN, USA



> Early spay-neuter is ovariohysterectomy or castration of puppies or kittens 6 to 14 weeks of age.
> 
> Pediatric animals may have an enhanced response to relatively low doses of anesthetic agents.
> Animals should be fasted no more than 3 to 4 hours before surgery to prevent hypoglycemia,
> ...


Please note i've pointed out previously that the biggest risk to pediatric S/N patients is *chilling:*
they have a smaller body-volume relative to body surface-area, & once their metabolism is lowered 
by general anaesthesia, they can chill - very-young animals also don't thermoregulate as well
as older pups & kittens do. The simplest answers are reflective blankets in the surgical cradle that holds
the patient belly-up, which reflect the patients' own body-heat back on them, & to avoid freezingly-cold
AC chilled surgical suites - a moderate temperature of 75-degrees F is better for everyone involved.

Another extremely-simple fix is pre-warmed saline bags as supports, in place of a surgical cradle 
or as "padding" in larger-sized surgical cradles, so that the body-temp saline bags support the patient
& provide safe, long-lasting, gentle heat.

NOT operating directly under a ceiling or wall vent is also common sense, in warm climates with AC.
_________________________________________

4:
DOC from columbusDogConnection.com 
A case for neutering pups and kittens at two months of age,
LL Lieberman - *J Am Vet Med Assoc*, 1987 - columbusdogconnection.com

Do note that date: 1987 => 2013 is 26-years ago.

_________________________________________

5:
The relationship of urinary incontinen... [J Reprod Fertil Suppl. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI



> The owners of *206 bitches... spayed before their first oestrus* &... at least 3 years [before], were
> questioned on the occurrence of urinary incontinence as a result of spaying.
> 
> At the time of the enquiry the average age of the bitches was 6.5 years, & the average age at the time
> ...


So in this study of 206 pre-estrous-spay bitches, their risk of UI was one-half that of females spayed
*after* the first estrous.

____________________________

6:
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie



> *Objective -*
> To evaluate long-term risks & benefits of early-age gonadectomy, compared with traditional-age
> gonadectomy, among dogs adopted from a large animal shelter.
> 
> ...


perhaps we could suggest to USA municipal-shelters that they HOLD all female pups until 12-WO,
then allow adoption?... but i doubt this would be well-received, as holding all F pups for another MONTH after 
their male siblings or peers are adopted is a very costly & complex proposition. Where do they stash them?!

Alternatively, perhaps we could suggest that any F-pups who are under 3-MO on arrival be euthanized,
in order to avoid any potential risk of urine-leaks AND avoid holding F-pups for an added month?...
But i doubt that would be popular, either.

Perhaps we could slaughter all F-pups & feed them to the other dogs, to decrease shelter costs?...
but that won't be popular, either, i'm sure. :nonod:

NOTE that this study says nothing in the abstract about HOW MANY females became incontinent.
We don't see a risk-factor, percent affected, etc, etc, etc. It's very vague.

______________________

7:
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie



> Prepubertal gonadectomy did not result in an increased incidence of behavioral problems or problems
> associated with any body system, compared with traditional-age gonadectomy, during a median
> follow-up period of 48 months after gonadectomy. Rate of retention in the original adoptive household
> was the same for dogs that underwent prepubertal gonadectomy as those that underwent traditional-age
> ...


Please note that these dogs were desexed in large shelters, which are more-likely sources of exposure
for infectious disease than the average pet-home, where a purchased pup from a breeder would live
when s/he was desexed - ergo, the risk of infection is more a matter of location than susceptibility.

IOW: being desexed before 1st-estrus isn't itself "added risk for infectious disease".

*To be continued...*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Presumably for the same reason [that] many amputees experience excrutiating pain in a limb that is no longer there.
> 
> Google "phantom limb pain".
> It is a well established, widely researched, yet mystifying medical condition which no doctor has, as yet, been able
> to fully understand. Hypothes*e*s on the "why" abound, but no one has a definite answer.


See the book, _'A User's Guide to the Brain'_ - there's a large & well-supported section on this
very topic, & it's a marvelous, fascinating read.

A User&#39;s Guide to the Brain: Perception, Attention and the Four Theaters of the Brain: John J. Ratey: 9780679453093: Amazon.com: Books

As for "phantom-limb pain", YES - it's well-established & has been widely-researched.

*"Phantom OVARIES"* are *not* "well-estabished", as i've never heard of this -
& i very-much doubt that anyone can offer a link to research on "phantom ovaries".

I eagerly await links to *veterinary references* &/or *peer-reviewed research articles* on 
*phantom ovaries*. Until i get something that substantiates the existence of this phenomenon,
I'm listing it as an Old-Husbands' Tale.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have a look at Richard Allport in the January edition of a Dogs Today magazine - Abandon snips. He talks about the con's of neutering instead of just the pro's. Neutering too early (or even at all) are beginning to show risks. Hypothyroidism, Cushings disease and fearfulness are the main conditions being shown to be on the increase in neutered dogs. There are also many cancers found in neutered dogs that aren't found in entire ones, a study of Rottweilers showed that 25% of Rotts neutered before one year of age developed bone cancer and another study of female Rotts showed entire females lived to older ages (over thirteen years) than neutered ones. Heart tumours are four times more common in female neutered dogs, studies on mammary and prostate tumours are beginning to show there may actually be no difference between entire or neutered dogs. There is also a study of Golden Retrievers showing similar flaws to neutering, especially too early. Studies are on ongoing. I have a Hypothyroid dog, Cushings dog and one that can be scared stiff of silly things like a sudden high wind or just the smell of another dogs poop - all neutered and not when very young. 
It's been thought for some time that neutering may be accounting for some of these disorders and as research is now more widespread it seems the conclusions of different researches are coming up with the same end result. 
I'm not suggesting you don't neuter but I would have the female done before the male because when she is in season a neutered male acts no differently to an entire one, can still mate and tie but obviously no pups. You'd still have a hell of a hassle though in keeping him settled and away from her. Mating is a dangerous business which can end up in haemorrhage of either or both dogs genitalia. 
I had my bitch pup spayed before she had a season because I wanted to make sure her new owners were safe from her mating with their male and although I don't really agree with messing with hormones of juveniles and would rather wait until bone growth is complete I felt under the circumstances it was safer. If there is any way you can hold out on spaying, perhaps have someone look after one of the dogs for four weeks during a season, to make certain there will be no accidents then that would be better all round until your bitch is over one year old at least, if not have the bitch done to avoid driving the boy crazy or accidental, possibly hazardous mating.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf


an interesting article but doubtless one could be found that said the opposite as far as medical conditions go.
As far as the growth of the dog goes,well that is just what I said about other animals. Horses are castrated because stallions fight, are hard to handle and cannot be easily kept. Geldings are very different looking from stallions, a stallion can be identified at a glance because of its different build and shape - yet geldings live a long and active life with their longer legs and less thick set bodies, less well developed necks and often finer heads.
I truly do not think that females alter in any way at all unless of course they are bred from in which case they will often look as though they have been.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> When U say "early spay", please stipulate -
> Are U talking of pubertal desex between 5 & 8-MO,
> juvenile desex between 14-WO & 5-MO, or pediatric desex between 6-WO & 12-WO?


It makes no difference, the risk is the same regardless of age if done pre season. This is not my opinion but that of Angelika von Heimendahl one of the UK's leading reproduction veterinary reproduction.

While I understand that the US (particularly rescues) commonly promote and do early spay, I suspect it is more to prevent breeding than for the health benefits. And I suspect the UK vets who are now promoting early spay do it for the same reason.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> It makes no difference, the risk is the same regardless of age if done pre season. This is not my opinion but that of Angelika von Heimendahl one of the UK's leading reproduction veterinary reproduction.
> 
> While I understand that the US (particularly rescues) commonly promote and do early spay, I suspect it is more to prevent breeding than for the health benefits. And I suspect the UK vets who are now promoting early spay do it for the same reason.


That backs up what I have said. SB's link proves that there is a difference between baby puppies and 6 month pups. You can definitely find a 'scientific study' to back up virtually any premise. Which of course makes it very difficult to make an informed decision.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2014)

snoopydo said:


> What are your thoughts got lilly booked in to be spayed next Tuesday she is 8 months and not had a season yet I found at vet that will do her my vet won't until 3 months after her 1st season what are your thoughts have you ever done this been told this morning that spaying before a season can cause lifetime incontinence and slow down maturity don't know what do do know thing is I also own her half unneutered brother so needed her son aspa in case she comes into season makes sense to have her done first as dogs can still be fertile for up to 7 weeks after castration do not want to risk a unwanted mating thanks in advance .


Like so many things, its basically risk assessment, and you have to decide what makes the most sense for you, your dog, and your individual situation.

For us, allowing a bitch to have a heat is not worth the risk. We have feral dogs all around as well as coyotes and no fenced yard. Even if I kept the bitch on a long line the entire season, shes still going to attract other males that I dont particularly want hanging around the house. Normally the coyotes and random dogs are easily deterred by our dogs, but adding a bitch in heat to the equation throws in a curveball that we wanted to avoid.

We waited until 11 months with Breez, she had an uneventful spay, and has has an uneventful rest of her development. I have not seen any change in personality, problems with physical maturity, no incontinence. In fact I posted on another thread about her cast iron bladder and how she will refuse to go pee if its raining and hold it for ridiculous amounts of time.

Read up on the medical, peer-reviewed articles out there (not just opinion pieces by lay people), get both sides, and decide for yourself what makes most sense for your situation. No matter what you do, someone will disagree


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> As for "phantom-limb pain", YES - it's well-established & has been widely-researched.
> 
> *"Phantom OVARIES"* are *not* "well-estabished", as i've never heard of this -
> & i very-much doubt that anyone can offer a link to research on "phantom ovaries".
> ...


So what you are saying is that anything outside the remit and documentation of existing peer reviewed studies simply doesn't exist and is an old wives tale.

Which, in turn, then means that BEFORE there were studies on cancers, mental health issues, behavioural issues, any unexamined health issue, NONE of them existed, none of them were real and were, hence, old wives tales, on the account that they weren't yet researched nor understood.

Strange logic. A medical issue needing validation through research...or it simply can't be.

Wouldn't it be a more plausible explanation that there are still MANY medical grey areas which are under-researched because they are rare and therefore, as yet, mystifying? I think science would concur


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> So what you are saying is that *anything outside the remit & documentation of existing peer-reviewed studies
> simply doesn't exist* and is an old [husbands'] tale.


Not in the least, dear Hope! 

I'm saying that this is the first time in my over-half-century lifespan that anyone claimed that female dogs
WITHOUT any ovaries [with or without a uterus] DISPLAY "seasonal", i-e, biannual breeding, behavior.

No-one has yet troubled to describe this "seasonal" behavior, other than with the vague adjective, _"erratic" -_
which doesn't exactly narrow it down, let alone describe it.

I reiterate: a female mammal without any ovaries nor leftover ovarian tissue from a botched spay/ OHE / OE,
doesn't display estrous behavior, doesn't experience menses without taking apropos hormones, etc.
Women who have an OHE at an early age will change many secondary sex-characteristics without hormones -
voices change, body-hair changes, etc, etc. It's menopause at 18 or 20 or 40 years old, instead of 50-plus.
Even with a uterus, they don't ovulate, have no menses, don't cycle thru egg-maturation, secrete a uterine lining,
etc - all that *stops*.
How is a female dog going to experience a mock-estrus when she has no ovaries?!

If anyone can LIST these "erratic behaviors" that supposedly occur at regular 6-mo intervals, i'd like to see them.
Precisely what are these dogs doing, post-spay, that seems to indicate anything ovarian-like?...


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Not in the least, dear Hope!
> 
> *I'm saying that this is the first time in my over-half-century lifespan that anyone claimed* that female dogs
> WITHOUT any ovaries [with or without a uterus] DISPLAY "seasonal", i-e, biannual breeding, behavior.
> ...


(just throwing this out there... it doesn't have to have been a butchering job of a spay to leave traces of ovarian cells in the body, which could in theory be enough to cause symptoms)

it's more so this belief of yours that you know everything there is to know that is getting annoying... ok, you have shown studies- but if i wanted to tell you that if you eat two bananas a day you will end up with your skin turning blue with orange spots there will be someone somewhere who will have done a 'study' for it. 
you are aware that studies can be biased depending on who is sponsoring it aren't you? 
ok, your over 50, you've had a lot of pets. luckily none have ever had any problems some of our pets have- WE GET IT!

just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean people are lying to you.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> We waited until 11 months with Breez, she had an uneventful spay, and has has an uneventful rest of her development. I have not seen any change in personality, problems with physical maturity, no incontinence. In fact I posted on another thread about her cast iron bladder and how she will refuse to go pee if its raining and hold it for ridiculous amounts of time.


My incontinent bitch also has a cast iron bladder when she is awake so sadly it does not mean anything. Not meaning your bitch could be incontinent, obviously she is not  just saying a cast iron bladder does not preclude incontinence when they just let go of the lot when sound asleep.
Mine was not spayed before a season though.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Not in the least, dear Hope!
> 
> I'm saying that this is the first time in my over-half-century lifespan that anyone claimed that female dogs
> WITHOUT any ovaries [with or without a uterus] DISPLAY "seasonal", i-e, biannual breeding, behavior.
> ...


And you know this for certain because.....? Because you have never heard of it before?

TBH, neither have I, but that doesn't mean much. My personal experience, cogniscence of, or lack thereof hardly validates or invalidates someone elses experience with it.

As to observable signs being "vague" or "erratic" - that isn't exactly an uncommon clinical picture, though. A great many medical issues have the audacitity to manifest themseves via vague, erratic or confusing signs which fall outside the scope of textbooks. Which makes them extremely frustrating to deal with. Be that for owner or vet.

A personal example: one of my dogs ( BMD's) came up lame. He was 3.5 years old. It was a gradual onset, meaning that initially I only noticed that his movement and gait was "off" or different, but I couldn't quite discern where the problem was.

Then one day he was lame on the front right. Rest for a day, the next he was lame on the back left. The third day he was sound. Then he came up lame again but now it was front left. Followed by the back right again. In all other respects he was bright-eyed and bushy tailed.

This continued for 5 months.

Rest and anti-inflammatories made no difference. I had him x-rayed from head to tail - neck, spine, elbows, hips, knees, the lot - nothing. We run 2 full tick born disease panels, full thyroid panels, tests for Lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, the investigations were expansive. Nothing showed up.

So maybe it was behavioural? Some kind of odd attention- seeking behaviour? He really wasn't the type for such, but I even had friends walk him just to rule that out. He was still limping.

And it continued like this - lameness which erratically shifted from limb to limb, without rhyme nor reason, interspersed with days of sound movement.

There was no medical explanation for it. There was no prior trauma, nothing which would account for it. This dog SHOULD have had perfectly sound movement...except that he didn't.

It was eventually resolved or cured - but would you like to have a guess as to how? Incidentally this didn't involve chiropractic, osteopathy or any other CAM.

Vague, erratic, non-sensical signs. From a dog which was sound on paper aka radiographs and all other investigations. It stumped 2 seasoned practice vets, 2 orthopaedic vets, 1 internist...never mind his owner. Neither of which had ever encountered or heard of anything like it before.

So, in your opinion, what was wrong with this dog?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> ...Richard Allport, in the January edition of Dogs Today magazine,... talks about the cons of neutering instead of
> just the pros.
> 
> Neutering too early (or even at all) is beginning to show risks.
> ...


I'm going to respond to this in my next post, with a massive article full of dozens of referenced studies.
[JAVMA]


Malmum said:


> I have *a Hypothyroid dog, a Cushings dog, & one that can be scared stiff of silly things like a sudden high wind
> or just the smell of another dog's poop - all neutered, & not when very young. *


A sample-size of 3 dogs isn't statistically significant - since as we all know, hypothyroid, Cushing's, & fearful dogs can also
be reproductively-intact, & STILL have precisely the same issue, even at the same age - hypothyroid is most-often seen
in dogs who are 2-YO or older, but i've seen intact dogs as young as 9-MO diagnosed with hypothyroid, as well as dogs
who'd been desexed & were under a year old, similarly Dx'ed.
It's NOT COMMON for dogs under 12-MO to become hypothyroid, but it does occur - in both intact & desexed dogs.

Similarly, Cushing's disease is Dx'ed in both desexed & repro-intact dogs - breed & individual genetics also makes any one
dog more or less susceptible to various metabolic & other disorders; bloat / GDV is strongly-influenced by genetics, but how
is anyone who buys a pup in a pet-shop going to know their dog's inherited risk? What about mixed-breed adoptees? -- Are they
SAFE from problems that are more-likely in specific breeds?
Of course not - we don't know what's in their DNA, & as a result, we can only say that anything that might affect any dog, is
potentially possible in that random-bred dog. What's UNlikely is problems that are specific to a very narrow breed or type,
such as the collagen disorders in puffin-dogs/ Lundehunds - they're exceedingly unlikely in a random-bred US dog
adopted from a municipal-shelter, but hip-dysplasia, patellar luxation, PRA of several forms, Seb Adenitis [with the huge fad
for Labrador x Poodles still affecting the shelter popn], stenotic nares & other brachy-issues, atopy & food-intolerances,
flea-bite dermatitis, OBESITY due to owner-ignorance / free feeding / "love is food", etc, are all very, very common.

There are problems that can arise in any dog of any breed or mix whatever - diabetes, many cancers in senior dogs, 
eye issues, joint problems, metabolic & organ disorders, etc - & there are problems that are more-restricted, such as Von
Willebrand's disease or cardiomyopathy or Fanconi's or syringomyelia.

Let's list as many complicating factors as possible:
- BREED
- AGE
- BODY CONDITION
[Fit or f-a-t? Muscle / bone / fat / water ratios?]
- GENERAL HEALTH
[Underexercised? Morbidly obese? Underfed?]
- DIET
- ENVIRONMENTAL STRESSES
[exposed to toxins? Water contaminants? Phenols?...]
- SEX [M or F]
- GENDER 
[repro-intact or sterilized]
- subset: HOW the dog was repro-sterilized 
[chemical or surgical? 
- GONADS, etc 
[present or absent? Is uterus present or absent?]

There are more, but these are all significant; Rotts are particularly prone to cancers, & often liver problems arise.
I spoke to a man who adored his Rotts, & his 3rd Rott was a delightful bully who forced customers at his garage to buy
him food from the coin-op snack machine.  He also told me sorrowfully that both of his prior Rotts had died young,
one of liver failure & the other of osteosarcoma, at 5 & 4-YO, respectively.

Looking at his dog, who was definitely overweight & smeared with engine-oil to boot, i asked WHERE his dogs slept?...
He said *'Oh, they've all stayed at the garage - they sleep here, to keep an eye on the place. My tools are valuable!'*

So... this dog, a bit over 2-YO, more than 35% BMI, exposed 24/7 to gas-fumes, direct skin-exposure to petrochemicals,
breathing / lying on / walking on highly-contaminated air & surfaces, is the 3rd dog he's kept this way?... Oh, dear. 

I explained that Rotts, for all their strength of body & will, have weaknesses, & livers are one - cancer is another.
They can't handle exposure to all these toxins; it won't kill them quickly, but it will kill them.

I suggested he install exterior motion-sensitive floodlights, an INTERIOR alarm system direct to the cops, & keep the dog
in his office until he got the garage-floor steam-cleaned, & sealed the concrete to make it easy to KEEP clean - then take
the dog home with him, every night. The dog gets an 8-hr to 12-hr break from fumes & spills - & while he's HERE at work,
keep him in the office unless he's out with U. That will stop the dog robbing ppl of their sticky-buns, bagged chips, cookies,
etc - & put him on the pumpkin diet to peel off the flab. BATHE THE DOG at least once every week or so, don't let him
stroll thru oil-spills & transmission-fluid!, & wash the bed he uses in the office weekly, to remove the gunk he gets on it
from walking on it with his grubby bare-paws. Wipe his paws before he enters the house with warm sudsy water,
& change or remove YOUR shoes, so the carpets aren't permeated by oil, gas, & other toxins.

I also suggested he get his dog neutered, as Brutus hated other M-dogs, intact especially but any males, even pups, & it
was very likely that one day, he'd nail one - since he'd do his damnedest to slip out or slip away, before anyone saw, to 
hit any visiting strange-dogs. This owner was never going to tether his dog, & Brutus had already assaulted a dozen, luckily 
only breaking skin a few times before being dragged off his target - he hadn't bitten a human, yet, in a redirect, & he had
not caused injuries needing stitches - so far. The employees all thought it was kinda cool that Brutus would take on 
any other male dog, & couldn't be relied upon to get him in the office with the door shut when a dog came by; they'd be
too busy making side-bets on who was gonna cry uncle. :glare:

The next time i saw Brutus, he was past 3-YO, in much-fitter condition, a LOT cleaner, & still trying to mug the folks at the
snack-machine - which now sported a big sign, *"DON'T FEED THE DOG - even if he growls!
He doesn't bite customers - only thieves."*
He'd also been neutered, & much to the staff's disappointment, he now postured or barked a few times at dogs
in cars or dogs passing by on leash, or dogs accompanying customers, but he didn't start fights, anymore. :thumbup1:

His owner also said he was really happy with the better relationship he now had with his dog, which bloomed when the dog 
began going home with him at night, vs working guard-duty / sleeping in a dirty garage, alone. The dog was happier, too,
& luckily tho the owner hated bathing the dog, his wife was a good egg, who much preferred a clean dog to a dirty one,
so *she* bathed Brutus every Sunday - it didn't take long, as he wasn't very dirty, & he was then welcome on 
the family sofa, which was a worthwhile benefit for everybody.

The last time i saw him, Brutus was past 5-YO & still looked good - his owner took him hiking on weekends, vs letting him 
lie around the garage & hijack pretzels & cookies. I hope he lived longer than his predecessors, but after 2-yrs of daily 
exposure, he might not; i *really* hope that if he got a 4th Rott, he'd remember to limit exposure to carcinogens, 
toxins, petrochemicals, & fumes - like PHENOLS at home, in cleaning chemicals, furniture, upholstery...

Breed DOES matter. The best way to avoid bladder-cancer in a Scottish Terrier?
*Don't hire a lawn-care company that uses pesticides, herbicides, & chemical fertilizers - 
& DON'T use them Urself, either.* :nono: Cut the lawn a minimum of 4-inches high to prevent / shade-out broadleaves,
water rarely & deeply, use manure-tea & other slow-release organic fertilizers, & [heresy!] encourage or seed
clover, to fix nitrogen in the soil.
Use organic pesticides such as milky-spore to treat a lawn for 20 to 30-years, killing beetle-grubs with disease,
not chemicals. Use Japanese-beetle pheromone traps instead of pesticidal sprays & powders, or tap the beetles into
a coffee-tin of water with detergent, & let them drown.

Anyone, with a purebred or random-bred dog, with or without kids & pets, can REDUCE their own exposure & the planet's
risk from ag-chemicals & other unnecessary exposures & pollutants. But if U've got a breed with known tendencies
that can be life-shortening, life-limiting [exercise intolerance, sleep apnea...], or otherwise "bad", U had better
know those risks.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> ...
> 
> So, in your opinion, what was wrong with [my Berner]?


I'm not a vet - nor a chiro, Reiki therapist, pet-communicator, telepath, accupuncturist, etc.

We are discussing the risks & benefits of *spaying a female post-pubertal dog* - 
not odd symptoms in male dogs of giant breeds, intermittent lameness, confusing symptoms,
mystery illnesses, ________ .

Once again:
no one can describe the "erratic behavior" supposedly displayed by females desexed before 1st-estrus,
which leads me to give more credence to the idea that this is no more than unfounded rumors, not even as
valuable as anecdotes without vet-diagnoses; without even any vet-exam, with or without a hypothesis.

IOW, *some owners of some females who were desexed before 1st-estrus are saying,
"my dog acts weird every 6-mos..." And no-one has followed up on this with a vet-appt?*
That sounds very likely.  // Not.

A: i don't think female dogs have discovered how to read wall-mounted calendars.

B: i have never had ONE client complain about "biannual erratic behavior" in any spayed dog - 
whether it mimicked, resembled, impersonated, duplicated, or sorta-kinda reminded the owner
of the behavior of an intact, estrous bitch, or not.

C: not one of my fellow-trainers since i joined USA-apdt in 1997 has ever had a case of "biannual erratic behavior"
in any spayed female.

So... find me someone who owns a female-dog who allegedly experiences hormone-driven "biannual erratic behavior"
& even better, a VET who has written about this odd "syndrome" in their dog - a photo of the DVM's case-notes
would be nice, on clinic letterhead with a contact phone-number.

An article in a peer-reviewed journal, however, would be much more trustworthy, IMO.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> I'm not a vet - nor a chiro, Reiki therapist, pet-communicator, telepath, accupuncturist, etc.
> 
> We are discussing the risks & benefits of *spaying a female post-pubertal dog* -
> not odd symptoms in male dogs of giant breeds, intermittent lameness, confusing symptoms,
> mystery illnesses, ________ .


Grin.

Actually, we were discussing EXACTLY that - someone reporting vague, erratic, cyclic signs from a spayed bitch which you said couldn't possibly be ascribed to her ovaries since she no longer had any.

To expand on it I gave you an example of a dog who shouldn't have been unsound, yet was.

Both examples are essentially the same thing - it IS odd that a bitch without ovaries should experience season related behaviour just as it is odd that a supposedly perfectly sound dog isn't.

The ONLY issue with any of it is that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that there are heaps of things you don't understand, you may never understand, and a bunch of things neither you, I or anyone else will ever know or understand. So you cite endless reams of studies - half of which meanwhile superceded by opposing conclusions, or of little relevance to people outside the US - because the sentence "How peculiar, I don't KNOW either" doesn't feature in your vocab. Anything with opposes your views and perspective either isn't feasable and thus confabulation or just not valid.

Its ok to be strongly pro-neutering. Its ok to be opposed to routine neutering. What is NOT ok is trying to convert everyone else to ones personal viewpoint, ridiculing those who report unusual side effect from neutering and spouting endless studies to lend credence to your views. You have every right to neuter your own animals at any age you see fit. But that hardly makes your personal choice gospel and everyone else misguided, does it now?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> So... find me someone who owns a female-dog who allegedly experiences hormone-driven "biannual erratic behavior"
> & even better, a VET who has written about this odd "syndrome" in their dog - a photo of the DVM's case-notes
> would be nice, on clinic letterhead with a contact phone-number.
> 
> An article in a peer-reviewed journal, however, would be much more trustworthy, IMO.


I am actually agreeing with a lot of what you are saying on this subject but you must know it only needs the tiniest bit of ovary to be left for hormones to be produced and the bitch to have signs (not physical signs) of being in season. I was certainly taught this when I was training and I did have one bitch that behaved very slightly oddly 6 months after the season she had had before being spayed. It was very subtle but there is no doubt in her mind she was in season. It only lasted a day or so and it never happened again thank goodness. I have no idea how common it is, and it certainly was not a problem with my bitch and I would not have taken her to the vet over it but I was aware it happened.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

One of my girls was spayed at 15 months, 3 months after her first season, and has incontinence. She developed this a year or so after being spayed. It's completely manageable with medication but I guess I'll never know if that could have been avoided with either earlier or later spaying. I think it's just one of those things.

My preference would still be to wait until after the 1st season though.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I am actually agreeing with a lot of what you are saying... but you must know it only needs the tiniest bit of ovary
> to be left [post-spay] for hormones to be produced, & the bitch to have signs (not physical signs) of being in season.
> ...


OK.  U did notice that i SPECIFIED *"no leftover ovarian tissue"*, more than once, did U not?

Would U like me to go back & edit every post to *include that phrase?*
I will, if U think i must, in order to make it crystal-clear - i thought it was understood after the first 2 or 3
iterations, but if U think anyone is missing that crucial detail, i *will* add it to every comment that
doesn't already include it. :thumbup1: I can do that. It's a pain in the rump, but i can & will,
if U think i need to stipulate it every time. :yesnod:


----------



## bella2013 (Aug 29, 2013)

i've not read the whole thread but i wish i had found this earlier, i got my 6 month old jack russell spayed on wednesday. she's well and healing nicely my only question is regarding the incontinence, is this likely to happen straight after the spay if its going to happen or develop a bit later  she's fine at the minute. thanks


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

bella2013 said:


> i've not read the whole thread but i wish i had found this earlier, i got my 6 month old jack russell spayed on wednesday. she's well and healing nicely my only question is regarding the incontinence, is this likely to happen straight after the spay if its going to happen or develop a bit later  she's fine at the minute. thanks


it may not at all- some bitches are affected, some aren't.
my girl who ended up incontinent showed signs within months of her spay- but some don't show signs until later in life- to the point it can't be known if it's linked to the spay or not.
imo, and in my personal experience it heightens the risks, but don't panic! she's still your girl, nothings changed there


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Since i started this thread I've been talking to clients and asking if their bitches are spayed and at what age etc to my surprise at least 50 % were spayed between 6-8 mths and all were ok well with no probs a lot of owners put my mind at ease so we've chosen to have lily done on the 28th after all think I'm old fashioned in a way but it seems owners and vets are changing their views obviously some vets ( like my regular) won't spay pre season and better still a lot of clients used the vets lily is booked with and are very recommended so even better so will let you know how she goes on x x x


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

bella2013 said:


> i've not read the whole thread but i wish i had found this earlier, i got my 6 month old jack russell spayed on wednesday. she's well and healing nicely my only question is regarding the incontinence, is this likely to happen straight after the spay if its going to happen or develop a bit later  she's fine at the minute. thanks


It's not anything to worry about, most dogs are fine, there is just a slight chance she may become incontinent.

On another note, - spaying at 6 months before 1st heat, my rescue puppy came in to season at just over 5 months, and she's not a small cross-breed either, in fact quite a chunk, her bigger (size-wise) sister came on not that long after either. So considering that all dogs are different and the increased risks of spaying DURING heat, is it not best to either spay very young, well before 1st season, or 3 months after first heat? If spaying very young you guarantee no puppies, and spaying after 1st heat you know your dog has reached sexual maturity and is in full working order (so to speak).

I am personally opposed to neutering very young pups, just because of the removal of the hormones that are a big part of maturing. However I understand rescues neutering dogs whenever they can just to stem the flow of unwanted puppies and dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/1063491498-post1.html

UPDATE:
i've posted the medical-literature review article, _'Determining the Optimal Age for Gonadectomy of Dogs & Cats'_ 
& the 1st 100 citations; I'll post the other 83 cited references a bit later.  Whew...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

for those who missed the medical-research thread for more info,

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-heal...hemical-desex-age-risk-possible-after-fx.html

the exhaustive literature-review includes breed-specific, age-related, body-condition, & other risks.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> OK.  U did notice that i SPECIFIED *"no leftover ovarian tissue"*, more than once, did U not?
> 
> Would U like me to go back & edit every post to *include that phrase?*
> I will, if U think i must, in order to make it crystal-clear - i thought it was understood after the first 2 or 3
> ...


I only just got back to this - but you are talking nonsense. If a spayed bitch shows signs of being in season at regular intervals the assumption would be that there is leftover ovarian tissue but no one would know this for sure, it is not something that can be changed. As far as the owner is concerned the bitch has been spayed which included removing the ovaries. Even if she was opened up again it is unlikely there would be any physical sign of left over ovarian tissue - ergo spayed bitches can and do show signs of being in season.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

An update on lily She was spayed on tuesday and all went well she is back to her normal self  x x x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I only just got back to this - but *you are talking nonsense.*


Gee, thanks, Blitz! :lol: --- don't hold back, now, honey - y'all should tell me how U *really* feel,
don't pussyfoot around, hit me where it hurts, don't try to soft-pedal Ur REAL opinion. 
Just tell me frankly that U think i'm a royal-blue booby & an ignorant horse's a$$, it's a good thing
that i have no sense of personal dignity, or i might feel not merely unappreciated, but ridiculed.

As it is, allow me to point out that _-I- wasn't the person who spouted nonsense -
i didn't make the comments about "odd biannual behavior at regular intervals" in spayed 
females, personally i've neither HEARD of nor MET any spayed-F who exhibits "estrus-like" 
behaviors at predictable times, & i personally think it's a complete fairy-tale.

*HopeAtTheEndOfTheTunnel* claimed there are spayed female-dogs who exhibit some 
sort of "every 6-mos" behavior, but after repeat requests, s/he can't seem to describe this.

Feel free to tell Hope just what nonsense s/he was spouting. _


Blitz said:


> If a spayed-[F] shows signs of [estrus] at regular intervals, *the assumption would be that there's
> leftover ovarian tissue*, but no one would know this for sure, *it is not something that can be changed*.
> 
> As far as the owner's concerned, the [F's] been spayed, which included removing [both] ovaries.
> ...


Which females would those be, then?...
And why would it be PERMANENT if there were any ovarian-tissue?
This tissue is somehow UN-recognizable to a vet with surgical experience?

Precisely what behavioral symptoms would these spayed-Fs display?

Also, BTW, once *SPAYED,* they are no longer 'bitches',
which is a term used only for reproductively-intact female dogs.
Whether they have a scrap of ovary "left behind" or not, they have no uterus.
They're not going to be popping out a litter, ya know?

Since [according to U] any retained bit of ovary is PERMANENT, what precisely would U
suggest an owner of one of these spayed-Fs who have mock-estrus *do*?
:blink: If anything? Just pretend it's all normal?


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

snoopydo said:


> What are your thoughts got lilly booked in to be spayed next Tuesday she is 8 months and not had a season yet I found at vet that will do her my vet won't until 3 months after her 1st season what are your thoughts have you ever done this been told this morning that spaying before a season can cause lifetime incontinence and slow down maturity don't know what do do know thing is I also own her half unneutered brother so needed her son aspa in case she comes into season makes sense to have her done first as *dogs can still be fertile for up to 7 weeks after castration do not want to risk a unwanted mating thanks in advance* .


Yeah but he can't physically mate the bitch if his testicals have disappeared. Are you saying he's just been neutered?


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Wiz201 said:


> Yeah but he can't physically mate the bitch if his testicals have disappeared. Are you saying he's just been neutered?


no- was saying that he is unneutered, but the girl could come into heat any time now...

and they can physically mate a bitch without their testies- otherwise someone needs to have serious words with my dexter!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wiz201 said:


> Yeah but he can't physically mate the bitch if his testicals have disappeared. Are you saying he's just been neutered?


Actually, it has happened before, a lack of testicles does not necessarily stop them mating and tying. It is after all the bitch that makes a tie possible.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I only just got back to this - but you are talking nonsense. If a spayed bitch shows signs of being in season at regular intervals the assumption would be that there is leftover ovarian tissue but no one would know this for sure, it is not something that can be changed. As far as the owner is concerned the bitch has been spayed which included removing the ovaries. Even if she was opened up again it is unlikely there would be any physical sign of left over ovarian tissue - ergo spayed bitches can and do show signs of being in season.


That's really interesting as my 10yr old dachshund bitch has just had a season. The rescue owner mentioned in passing that she'd been spayed, but despite contacting previous vets and her breeder there's no evidence of this happening. I believe it was an assumption.
My vet thinks it's unlikely that she was, but said the only way to find out definitely was exploratory surgery.

So in view of that we're taking a 'wait and see ' approach ,she's at minimal risk of accidental mating, happy and healthy, her season hardly bothered her ( bothered me a lot more ! ) and I'm reluctant to risk
GA in an old dog, with invasive surgery
Changes in her currently excellent temperament
Spay incontinence.

I will be on the alert for early signs of pyometria or phantom pregnancy and act accordingly , and hypervigilant in keeping her safe during any future seasons. 
Does this sound reasonable to you ? If I'd got her at a younger age I would almost certainly have had her spayed.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> *HopeAtTheEndOfTheTunnel* claimed there are spayed female-dogs who exhibit some
> sort of "every 6-mos" behavior, but after repeat requests, s/he can't seem to describe this.
> 
> Feel free to tell Hope just what nonsense s/he was spouting. [/SIZE][/I]


Nonsense spouting? Moi? Surely not.

But I tell you what : if you DO find me a message in which I claimed what you say I claimed, I will donate $100.00 to a no-kill shelter of your choice.

If you DON'T find such a message YOU donate $ 100.00 to a no-kill shelter of MY choice. Oh, and I'd like an apology in the same fetching purple colour you used above.

Okey-dokey? Lets all put our money where our mouths are. Win-win situation for dogs on our side of the ocean or yours.

Incidentally, there is a fundamental difference between "making an argument" and "being argumentative". Just saying....


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Sorry that my thread caused lots of arguments  I was just asking if anyone had ever stayed a preseason girl seems to have gone far of track there was lots of good advice on here but seems to have gone on to rescue centres I think its a completely different situation as many centres neutered to stop the problem they are trying to solve I.e more unwanted dogs being breed and ending up in rescue . Prevention better than more unwanted puppies x x x I knew that's why we do it too but rescue on a much bigger scale.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Wiz201 said:


> Yeah but he can't physically mate the bitch if his testicals have disappeared. Are you saying he's just been neutered?


No Bertie is unneutered that's why I was stuck with my problems. Do I have Bertie done but dogs Can still get a bitch pregnant for up to 7 weeks after the op. Or do I have lily spayed at 8months and pre season ? It s all explained in previous posts but problem solved now as lily was spayedast week 2 days later she was back to normal and playing wit my other dogs


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SusieRainbow said:


> That's really interesting as my 10yr old dachshund bitch has just had a season. The rescue owner mentioned in passing that she'd been spayed, but despite contacting previous vets and her breeder there's no evidence of this happening. I believe it was an assumption.
> My vet thinks it's unlikely that she was, but said the only way to find out definitely was exploratory surgery.
> 
> So in view of that we're taking a 'wait and see ' approach ,she's at minimal risk of accidental mating, happy and healthy, her season hardly bothered her ( bothered me a lot more ! ) and I'm reluctant to risk
> ...


that sounds very sensible. But she could not have a proper season if she had been spayed - she might show subtle signs that she was about to come in season but not actually bleeding.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Wiz201 said:


> Yeah but he can't physically mate the bitch if his testicals have disappeared. Are you saying he's just been neutered?





leashedForLife said:


> Gee, thanks, Blitz! :lol: --- don't hold back, now, honey - y'all should tell me how U *really* feel,
> don't pussyfoot around, hit me where it hurts, don't try to soft-pedal Ur REAL opinion.
> Just tell me frankly that U think i'm a royal-blue booby & an ignorant horse's a$$, it's a good thing
> that i have no sense of personal dignity, or i might feel not merely unappreciated, but ridiculed.
> ...


WOW 

Hardly worth a reply but I will respond to two points.

No idea what happens in your country but in this they are still called bitches after they are spayed. What are they called in America 

I would imagine that most owners of bitches that show behaviour of coming in season (it is not a mock oestrus as they cannot actually come in season) will ignore it. It does not do any harm. Certainly my bitch just showed subtle signs that she would have shown before a season, nothing to worry about. Unless there was a massive problem no vet is going to put a dog through surgery in the hope of finding a couple of ovarian cells!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> ...in [the UK] they're still called bitches after they are spayed.
> What are they called in America?


spayed females. 
Bitches are reproductively intact - prepuberty, postpuberty, whatever age.

"Bitch pup" generally refers to intact-Fs under 6-MO. :001_smile:


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Blitz said:


> No idea what happens in your country but in this they are still called bitches after they are spayed. What are they called in America


Bitches. 
I call a female dog a bitch, or female, or she.... Unlike with males, its not like you can take a quick look and tell if a female is intact or not.


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