# What colour is this guy? :)



## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

I didn't want to soul Persian thread, so opening a new.
Exotic shorthair boy, 6 weeks old today. 
Still haven't registered the litter as.. don't know how to register this lad.
The cream on the head has darker (red?) spot in it; all spots on his body are dark. Coloured parts on back leg and tail has nice tabby markings (might be ghost)..

He will defo go to someone's sofa so it is not crucial but would like to register him correct

Any thoughts welcome..


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I would say he is cream. He's a beaut.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

Here is he with cream siblings.. Head is defo cream, spots on his body seem very dark..
That is what's confusing me..


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## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh my, I have no idea but what a fluff ball. Gorgeous


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

What colour are the parents?


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## Daloo95 (Feb 16, 2018)

hmm creamy color :Joyful so cute


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Looks red & high white, possibly van. No idea if he's tabby or not. So I reckon either PER d 01 or PER d 02. Not sure what you can register for PER, and if he is tabby than add 21 on the end.

https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/GEMS Codes 2017-07-05.pdf?ver=2017-07-11-173226-643


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

It may be the lighting but his markings look more apricot than cream to me.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

PetloverJo said:


> What colour are the parents?


I also want to know what colours the parents are!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I would have said red solid, as there's a significant lack of markings. You could always agouti test him to see if tabby or solid. You can also test for dilute.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> I would have said red solid, as there's a significant lack of markings. You could always agouti test him to see if tabby or solid. You can also test for dilute.


It's not possible to tell visually if a red is self or tabby, especially not when there is very little red. The registration policy (if GCCF) will require him to be registered as a red tabby if he has a tabby parent. If both parents are self then he's a self.

We NEED to know what colours the parents are!


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

Sorry, was out..
Dad is red Mac tabby and white, mum is blue tortie and white..
He is shorthair so will be EXO, and I believe he is harlequin as vans have coloured tails and few spots on head only..


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

We have 3 cream & whites (longhairs, I can't see any tabby markings on them, one has a bit on tail only), one blue& white (longhair, no tabby markings) and tortie (shorthair) in same litter. 
I assume @OrientalSlave that your comment that he will need to be registered as tabby is only for self coloured offspring, this is not for the cream guys, right?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If the sire is red tabby and white, the red series kittens will have to be registered as tabby if you are registering them with GCCF unless they test clear of the Agouti gene. The blue and white can be registered as self. Do you know your boy is tabby?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> If the sire is red tabby and white, the red series kittens will have to be registered as tabby if you are registering them with GCCF unless they test clear of the Agouti gene. The blue and white can be registered as self. Do you know your boy is tabby?


Is that only in Persians and Exotics?


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

@QOTN I have tested him at Langfords, he is A/a - carrier of non-agouti..
The cream kittens deffo don't look tabby, but I still need to register them as such because dad is tabby? I haven't heard of that..


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Vantuuz said:


> Sorry, was out..
> Dad is red Mac tabby and white, mum is blue tortie and white..
> He is shorthair so will be EXO, and I believe he is harlequin as vans have coloured tails and few spots on head only..


Couldn't see enough to decide if he was van or harlequin. As the father is tabby all red & cream offspring have to be registered as tabby, in this case pattern 21 (unknown).


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

I will look up in registration policy, however.. What happens when you show a cream cat that stands as "tabby" but has no markings at all? Just curious..


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Vantuuz said:


> @QOTN I have tested him at Langfords, he is A/a - carrier of non-agouti..
> The cream kittens deffo don't look tabby, but I still need to register them as such because dad is tabby? I haven't heard of that..


Yes, read the registration policy. The non-agouti gene doesn't work effectively on phaeomelanin which is what the red gene turns into. I've seen some lovely tabby patterns in red self classes when stewarding...


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Vantuuz said:


> @QOTN I have tested him at Langfords, he is A/a - carrier of non-agouti..
> The cream kittens deffo don't look tabby, but I still need to register them as such because dad is tabby? I haven't heard of that..


This is from the GCCF Persian registration policy. The rule applies to all red or cream cats in GCCF
*
Red or Cream cats

Any red or cream, red and white, cream and white, red pointed or cream pointed cat with one or more tabby parent will be registered as a tabby unless shown by DNA testing not to be a tabby*.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Vantuuz said:


> I will look up in registration policy, however.. What happens when you show a cream cat that stands as "tabby" but has no markings at all? Just curious..


The judge will probably suggest you get it tested and put in the appropriate class if it is non-agouti and don't show it again if tabby!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> The judge will probably suggest you get it tested and put in the appropriate class if it is non-agouti and don't show it again if tabby!


Would they care that much on a cat with so much white?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Would they care that much on a cat with so much white?


I expect it depends if points are allocated for pattern.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

Thanks for info on registering, Exotic reg policy doesn't have this information. I just looked up in Persian, and it is there..
I think Exotic BAC is changing exotic reg policy so its in line with Persians, already now exotic longhairs are not registered as exotic variants but Persians..

Its always good to know, I don't think this would make a difference with this lad, but there is one cream longhair I would love to keep..


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Vantuuz said:


> @QOTN I have tested him at Langfords, he is A/a - carrier of non-agouti..
> The cream kittens deffo don't look tabby, but I still need to register them as such because dad is tabby? I haven't heard of that..


Just clarifying, if he's carrier of non-agouti then he would be tabby carrying solid?


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

I understand that AA is a homozygous tabby where Aa means that he is tabby but carries solid. So he can pass A or a to his offspring..


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I would agree, so the registration policy is neither here nor there for him - he's genetically tabby so would be registered as such


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

Looks that all my creams will be tabbies as well if I won’t opt for Langfords test to prove they are not..

So I believe majority thinks this lad is red then


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Vantuuz said:


> So I believe majority thinks this lad is red then


I don't think I do. Sorry to be different but you only have to look at a dilute tortie to see the huge difference you can get in the cream. My foundation queen was a blue tortie and her 'two shades of cream' were both very similar but one of her blue tortie daughters had almost white in some areas and definite apricot in others. Fortunately the Persians and Exotics have not gone down the dilute modifier route so you can actually call them shades of cream.

There is just something 'fuzzy' about the colour that does not look pale red to me but it is very hard to tell from pics.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> I would agree, so the registration policy is neither here nor there for him - he's genetically tabby so would be registered as such


I take it the 'he' you are referring to is the father?

As to colour on my pc with a very good screen I had no doubt the high white kitten was ref, but on my laptop it wasn't as clear. As qotn says it can be hard to be sure from a photo.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

So if assuming he is red, the cream looking patch on his head is? Just a bad colouring? 

I have heard that smokes in pedigree can cause bad colourings later is solid offspring..

I really appreciate your input in all this, still learning.. and learning..


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Vantuuz said:


> Thanks for info on registering, Exotic reg policy doesn't have this information. I just looked up in Persian, and it is there..
> I think Exotic BAC is changing exotic reg policy so its in line with Persians, already now exotic longhairs are not registered as exotic variants but Persians..
> 
> Its always good to know, I don't think this would make a difference with this lad, but there is one cream longhair I would love to keep..


The breeding policy on GCCF Exotic page states

*Orange (O) - a gene responsible for changing eumelanin (black) pigment into phaeomelanin (red) pigment. The O gene

is found on the X-chromosome and is therefore said to be sex-linked. Male cats (genotype XY) with the O gene will be

red or cream. Female cats (genotype XX) with one O gene will be Tortoiseshell, those with O genes linked to both X

chromosomes will be red or cream. Note that the non-agouti gene's action is inhibited in the presence of O, meaning

that red/cream non-agouti cats still retain a degree of tabby marking. Hence, the Exotic BAC registration policy states

that any red or cream Exotic with an agouti (Tabby or Shaded) parent must be registered as Tabby or Shaded unless

proven otherwise via DNA testing.

*


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Vantuuz said:


> So if assuming he is red, the cream looking patch on his head is? Just a bad colouring?
> 
> I have heard that smokes in pedigree can cause bad colourings later is solid offspring..
> 
> I really appreciate your input in all this, still learning.. and learning..


And if he is cream the red spots on his body is? Just bad colouring? 

Not convinced about smokes causing bad colours. Can see very low grade smoke being confused with unsoundness. Why wouldn't it cause problems with tabby colours?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> And if he is cream the red spots on his body is? Just bad colouring?
> 
> Not convinced about smokes causing bad colours. Can see very low grade smoke being confused with unsoundness. Why wouldn't it cause problems with tabby colours?


Smoke can and does cause bad colouring. Silver parents can cause a colder colour in non-silver offspring.

@Vantuuz I'm getting a bit confused. Who is A/a, the kitten or the father? And is a parent silver? I would be very surprised if the kitten is silver, nothing of the colouring suggests it is to me but then high white can throw things.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If a cat doesn't have silver how can it cause colour problems? Now if the smoke ancestors were selected for colder color as well that's another matter. And there is no suggestion either parent of the kitten is smoke or silver.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> If a cat doesn't have silver how can it cause colour problems? Now if the smoke ancestors were selected for colder color as well that's another matter. And there is no suggestion either parent of the kitten is smoke or silver.


I think you're misunderstanding. In general, not this specific mating and offspring, silver parents produce colder colours in non-silver offspring. I was making a general statement. I have asked @Vantuuz to clarify if there's silver in either parent, as of course no silver parent means no smoke offspring.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

The colour of the kitten for registration purposes unfortunately I haven't a clue but what I do know is that he is a beautiful colour and lovely markings, if I was in a position to take on another pet I would want to snap him up in a heartbeat.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> <snip>
> In general, not this specific mating and offspring, silver parents produce colder colours in non-silver offspring.
> <snip>


The only good reason I can think of for that to be the case is that the silver parents have themselves been bred for colder colours, which in the case of silver tabbys they have to reduce tarnishing.

There's no reason I can think of to do that in smokes, though smokes can come out of silver tabby breeding.

But it's nothing to do with the silver gene itself, and everything to do with the rest of the breeding program.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> The only good reason I can think of for that to be the case is that the silver parents have themselves been bred for colder colours, which in the case of silver tabbys they have to reduce tarnishing.
> 
> There's no reason I can think of to do that in smokes, though smokes can come out of silver tabby breeding.
> 
> But it's nothing to do with the silver gene itself, and everything to do with the rest of the breeding program.


The presence of the Inhibitor gene definitely changes the base colour making it colder. That is why the black on silver tabbies is so striking. I remember a few years ago, the owners of a chocolate silver had to test it to prove it was chocolate because judges were insisting it was black. Perhaps breeders of silver select the colder colours to avoid tarnishing but it is certainly not a benefit to have silvers in the pedigree of standard cats (apart from shadeds I suppose.)

A smoke is by definition a cat with an extremely unsound coat. The unsoundness is silver and desirable but standard selfs coming down from silvers can suffer from the consequences of not breeding for soundness in previous generations. I don't think there is any suggestion these kittens are unsound is there?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> The presence of the Inhibitor gene definitely changes the base colour making it colder. That is why the black on silver tabbies is so striking. I remember a few years ago, the owners of a chocolate silver had to test it to prove it was chocolate because judges were insisting it was black. Perhaps breeders of silver select the colder colours to avoid tarnishing but it is certainly not a benefit to have silvers in the pedigree of standard cats (apart from shadeds I suppose.)
> 
> A smoke is by definition a cat with an extremely unsound coat. The unsoundness is silver and desirable but standard selfs coming down from silvers can suffer from the consequences of not breeding for soundness in previous generations. I don't think there is any suggestion these kittens are unsound is there?


I don't think there is a suggestion of them being unsound but rather there was the query of silver changing the colour of the kitten in question. I was under the impression that neither parent is silver but I could be wrong.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> The only good reason I can think of for that to be the case is that the silver parents have themselves been bred for colder colours, which in the case of silver tabbys they have to reduce tarnishing.
> 
> There's no reason I can think of to do that in smokes, though smokes can come out of silver tabby breeding.
> 
> But it's nothing to do with the silver gene itself, and everything to do with the rest of the breeding program.


It's everything to do with the silver gene. Silver strips all colours of warmth, and this stripping can be seen to a degree in non-silver offspring. Colder colouring of silver makes no difference to tarnishing in my experience.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> I don't think there is a suggestion of them being unsound but rather there was the query of silver changing the colour of the kitten in question. I was under the impression that neither parent is silver but I could be wrong.


The parents are a red mackerel tabby and white and a blue tortie and white. I have heard that high white can affect colour but I have never bred white of any description. Oriental Slave was pointing out that the consequences of not selecting for warm colours in silver breeding could have a residual effect on subsequent non-silver generations. That is what I have noticed in cinnamons coming down from silvers.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> The parents are a red mackerel tabby and white and a blue tortie and white. I have heard that high white can affect colour but I have never bred white of any description. Oriental Slave was pointing out that the consequences of not selecting for warm colours in silver breeding could have a residual effect on subsequent non-silver generations. That is what I have noticed in cinnamons coming down from silvers.


I haven't seen high white affect colour to this degree, but of course expression of colour can vary so much across different breeds. A colder colour isn't a fault in every breed, and silver parents can produce a fairly sound coat with a colder tone to the overall colour. It's most noticeable on black tabby offspring.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

@QOTN Thanks for pointing out about tabby registration, I found it after I did my post in breeding policy. Sometimes my brain doesn't work as supposed to (according to my logic it should be in other place). Other genes were just explained and there was no mentioning of registration, so I simply missed it. I need to be more careful.  Same as its stated that on full register it says

"_The Full Register is for Exotic cats of colours/patterns recognised for Championship status that have, in their preceding three generations (parents, grand-parents, great grand-parents), *Exotic or Persian* cats of colours/patterns recognised for Championship status or Exotic Longhair cats of colour/pattern as recognised for Exotics with Championship status."_

And I couldn't get my head around why my male is on supplementary, cats being him was colours that are recognised.Then it turned out that he is on supplementary because 3 gen back he has Persian and Exotic can be FULL only if he has Exotics behind him. It might be that its just my lack of understanding English.. That lets me down sometimes.

@Rufus15 The father of above kitten is Aa, that's why I as assuming he can "pass" agouti or non-agouti to his offspring.

@sskmick Thanks 

I mentioned smoke (the kitten above has great grandfather blue smoke) as I heard some breeders chat at the show that they will not use cats with smokes in pedigrees in solid breeding as it ruins the colour. Not sure how exactly tough, heard just part of it and I'm not super bubbly personality to just join such conversations 

Thank you everyone for stepping in here, I really appreciate. You have so much knowledge and I'm happy that I can find out more


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> It's everything to do with the silver gene. Silver strips all colours of warmth, and this stripping can be seen to a degree in non-silver offspring. Colder colouring of silver makes no difference to tarnishing in my experience.


But why would it affect the colour of a cat without it, unless the ancestors have been bred for lack of rufousing to avoid tarnishing? I know cats with it are a colder colour, but their descendants without it?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Vantuuz said:


> <snip>
> 
> I mentioned smoke (the kitten above has great grandfather blue smoke) as I heard some breeders chat at the show that they will not use cats with smokes in pedigrees in solid breeding as it ruins the colour. Not sure how exactly tough, heard just part of it and I'm not super bubbly personality to just join such conversations
> 
> Thank you everyone for stepping in here, I really appreciate. You have so much knowledge and I'm happy that I can find out more


There is a lot of myth in breeding, however the expression of silver can be very variable and it's possible for it to slip past in a very low-grade smoke. At present there's no DNA test for silver.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> But why would it affect the colour of a cat without it, unless the ancestors have been bred for lack of rufousing to avoid tarnishing? I know cats with it are a colder colour, but their descendants without it?


I don't know why, I'm only saying what I see.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Vantuuz said:


> @Rufus15 The father of above kitten is Aa, that's why I as assuming he can "pass" agouti or non-agouti to his offspring.


I would be inclined to test the kitten for agouti or non-agouti, even if he's going to a pet home. You might as well register him the correct pattern, and it might help with your own learning and you own records, especially as the test is inexpensive.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

@Rufus15 I think I will need to test this lad for agouti and dilute and three creams for agouti. That's the only way to register them correctly.. Will wait for their first vaccination and microchip tough


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Does silver ruin the colour of non silver cats? ...... No. This is a myth cast down over the years, most likely by those who failed to spot low grade silver in their kittens, particularly dilutes and then got a surprise further down the line. It was therefore always stated that silver ruins the colours as an argument to keep it out of certain breeds, particularly pointed breeds and the myth has since moved into general cat-law (the principle of 'if you say it enough it must be true'). The inhibitor gene strips the yellow colour out of the hair, the most graphic example of this is in the Chinchilla Persian.

@Vantuuz as the little man is just going to be a pet I'd register him as a Cream Tabby Bicolour. I'm not sure that the GCCF distinguishes the type of bi-colouring as the types aren't split for showing purposes.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Vantuuz said:


> @Rufus15 I think I will need to test this lad for agouti and dilute and three creams for agouti. That's the only way to register them correctly.. Will wait for their first vaccination and microchip tough


If you want a test you can use with the GCCF the kitten would have to be chipped, personally I feel it's money better spent elsewhere. As they are going to pet homes it's not an issue to get it right.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tigermoon said:


> Does silver ruin the colour of non silver cats? ...... No. This is a myth cast down over the years, most likely by those who failed to spot low grade silver in their kittens, particularly dilutes and then got a surprise further down the line. It was therefore always stated that silver ruins the colours as an argument to keep it out of certain breeds, particularly pointed breeds and the myth has since moved into general cat-law (the principle of 'if you say it enough it must be true'). The inhibitor gene strips the yellow colour out of the hair, the most graphic example of this is in the Chinchilla Persian.
> 
> @Vantuuz as the little man is just going to be a pet I'd register him as a Cream Tabby Bicolour. I'm not sure that the GCCF distinguishes the type of bi-colouring as the types aren't split for showing purposes.


Perhaps it doesn't in Persians.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> Perhaps it doesn't in Persians.


It'll effect all cats the same Rufus15, just like dilute does, or chocolate, or pointing ...


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tigermoon said:


> It'll effect all cats the same Rufus15, just like dilute does, or chocolate, or pointing ...


Except it doesn't. But we'll agree to disagree, as we both as very different experiences.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> Except it doesn't. But we'll agree to disagree, as we both as very different experiences.


:Hilarious


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Except it doesn't. But we'll agree to disagree, as we both as very different experiences.


Really? You pulling our legs? I've no experience of breeding silvers - cinnamon and fawn are my thing. Maybe you have bred some yourself.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> Really? You pulling our legs? I've no experience of breeding silvers - cinnamon and fawn are my thing. Maybe you have bred some yourself.


I show silvers and have had numerous discussions with breeders all over who specialise in silver. I've also seen a lot of silvers both on and off the show bench, as well has having lots of hands on contact and excellent mentors. Breeding knowledge is not exclusive to producing litters.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I do think we have to approach the Inhibitor gene(s) with caution. It is nearly 10 years since it was proclaimed the gene had been found but there is still no test available. Rumour has it there are concerns it may be polygenic. I cannot remember when or where it was but Jen Lacey posted something about the difficulties being experienced in pinning it down. This of course could explain the occurrence of low grade silvers. There never used to be the worry over silver amongst non-silver breeders until the GCCF suddenly started over stamping everything with a silver cat within 5 generations. (I think it was because of British blue tabbies producing dense colour silver offspring and Alan Edwards had a bit of a campaign.)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> I show silvers and have had numerous discussions with breeders all over who specialise in silver. I've also seen a lot of silvers both on and off the show bench, as well has having lots of hands on contact and excellent mentors. Breeding knowledge is not exclusive to producing litters.


And their non-silver offspring, which is where this started? Yes, silver does affect the coat colour but in my view the reason the coat colour can be cold in non-silver offspring of silver tabbies is that the silver tabbies have been bred to reduce rufusing genes, which cause tarnishing. Not because there is some inherent effect of silver in a parent on the colour of a non-silver kitten.

Edit: rufusing not refusing!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I wish I had been able to refuse some genes when I was breeding!!!!!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I do think we have to approach the Inhibitor gene(s) with caution. It is nearly 10 years since it was proclaimed the gene had been found but there is still no test available. Rumour has it there are concerns it may be polygenic. I cannot remember when or where it was but Jen Lacey posted something about the difficulties being experienced in pinning it down. This of course could explain the occurrence of low grade silvers. There never used to be the worry over silver amongst non-silver breeders until the GCCF suddenly started over stamping everything with a silver cat within 5 generations. (I think it was because of British blue tabbies producing dense colour silver offspring and Alan Edwards had a bit of a campaign.)


I'm more than happy to accept there can be low-grade silvers which may well be incorrectly registered - a friend had a tortie Oriental which she had to reregister as Smoke when the cat was 2-3 years old. I also think that it may well be multi-genetic hence the variable expression, both good reasons to avoid it in non-silver breeding.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I wish I had been able to refuse some genes when I was breeding!!!!!




Which one(s) would you have refused?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Which one(s) would you have refused?


Definitely the minor white spotting gene! I realise that breeders today seem to breed on from cats with bikini lines and all sorts but I would not.

Any genes that we inherited from the well known stud I mentioned recently causing neurosis in varying degrees.

Any polygenes detracting from really green eyes.

The gene that causes cats to eat their toys, blankets etc and/or put them in their food.

Probably others but what about you?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Caramel, if it exists, though I think I've avoided it in the current litter. Genes causing ghost tabby markings on a self cat.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Definitely the minor white spotting gene!
> 
> The gene that causes cats to eat their toys, blankets etc and/or put them in their food.
> 
> Probably others but what about you?


Oh yes to be rid of the dreaded white spots! Always turn up on the best kitten too 
The toy and blanket thing made me chuckle.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Also the one that makes a cat wake me at 4am for a game of fetch.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Just to be extra serious for a minute. If I had any idea about the CEP290 mutation before I started I would have refused to breed at all but I had no idea the damage I was causing. Other people seem to take it in their stride but I don't know how they do it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Pra. Thankfully there is a DNA test now


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

On the topic of silvers, I’ve never bred a non silver litter and I don’t find this strips the warmth from the coat in my cats at all.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> If I had any idea about the CEP290 mutation before I started I would have refused to breed at all but I had no idea the damage I was causing.


Unfortunately the breeding world really doesn't like discussing issues like this. It makes it very hard for breeders to know if they are doing the right thing, or even know anything about it if they are novices.


QOTN said:


> Other people seem to take it in their stride but I don't know how they do it.


I'm going to be uncharitable and say that a) some don't care and b) some like to see the breed through rose tinted specs and won't accept anything is wrong (often accompanied by "well I never had any trouble, it must be because you .......(insert excuse here)......" Both attitudes are highly damaging, and I've seen it not only in both breeds I have but in other breeds too.
There is a gene test for CEP290 now so obviously someone, somewhere did care enough.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

Just thought I need to put front facing photo here


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Hmmm... Head looks cream but on this screen tail etc. looks red. Parentage & litter mates say he could be red or cream so no help there. Is he going for show or breeding? If not I'd not worry. If he is I'd DNA test him.

Very cute!


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

He is not going to show, I think the differences in coloured patches are too obvious and just means he is not really fit for shows. It might change, but the reg can be amended later if really needed.. I am thinking of longhaired guy who could do ok on show bench, but as he is a cream lad with no tabby markings, definitely will need to DNA test him..


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

My classics have been lighter on the head before evening out, we know the colour but tail tip and paw pads are the general way to tell if unsure.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Whatever colour he is, he is absolutely adorable. ❤❤❤


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