# Shar Pei out of control. Please help



## rachelstraub (Aug 19, 2011)

Hi

I've joined this forum in the hope for some assistance and guidance on my 1 year old male Shar Pei called Vader. We are now at the stage where we are considering re-homing him due to his increasing aggressive and dominant behaviour.

Vader arrived in our family at 14 weeks old and came from an unwanted household. I have his pedigree certification and was led to believe at this time, that he was a full breed with no health problems.

Since having Vader, his behaviour has been extremely testing and has only deterioratred to the point of almost being out of control.

As a young pup we toilet trained him fairly easy however its about the only training we've managed. He has barked/whimpered and cried every day since having him, unless getting his own way. At first we tried crate training him but this only distressed him and the barking was a nightmare. We then tried letting him have the run of our livingroom and hallway but items were smashed , broken, chewed etc. After this failed to work, we sought advice from the vet who advised us that he was extremely nervous. He recommended waiting until he was 6 months old then getting his Op done. Until that time we struggled on, eventually having to keep Vader on a lead at all times in the house.

Walking with him was also nightmare from day one. We have tried every kind of lead imaginable and even took him to one-to-one training, which failed to work as he continiously pulled on his lead excessively. From a young pup he has pulled on his lead so severly that he almost passes out or physically gags on his lead.

At 6 months, he had his Op, which made no difference at all. Over the last 6 months we have lost all control of him. On a few occasion he has broke free from his lead, refusing to return to us. We had him chipped because of our concern. He barks, growls and snaps at all people and dogs and over the last months, he has started to snap and growl at my husband and I. Over the summer we have resorted to keeping him in our back garden but he scratched all the glass at the window and has almost bitten through our wooden door.

I have three young children who are unable to play or interact with him and I am extremely concerned that he may end up snapping at one of us.

We have tried rewarding any good behaviour and punishing any bad behaiviour with no success. Any stern "No" commands results in him growling at us and snapping which can be very intimidating.

We are all very miserable and frustrated and more concerned at Vaders lack of happiness. We feel that he too is unhappy and are very concerned by his behaviour.

We recently had him kennels where the staff also raised their concern.

I would love ANY advice or help on offer and wondered on peoples thoughts regarding his breed. We are worried that these are not traits of a Shar Pei and are concerned that he is a mixed breed of a possibly more aggresive dog.

Any thoughts would be extremely grateful.

With thanks

Rachel


----------



## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I'm sorry to have to say this, I absolutely live for my dogs as anyone who knows me would testify, but should any of them ever behave in the way you describe I would be seriously considering taking very drastic steps. It seems to me that you have few options open to you, this dog appears to be completely out of control to a point that I would consider dangerous. You say he threatens your husband, imagine for a second that he behaved like that with a child.


----------



## HelloKittyHannah (Nov 18, 2010)

If you've tried behaviourists and you've had him to the vets to rule out any medical issues then I'm afraid he has a very bleak outlook. I don't feel he could/should be rehomed to the general public and taken to a rescue centre I fear he'd immediately be put to sleep...

I'm really not sure what your options are, but if you really *really* have exhausted every avenue it may be a very hard decision you have to make  One thing for certain is you can't keep him around your kids if he already challenges you :crying:


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sharpeis are 'known' to be standoffish! perhaps you could invest in some dog socializing classes and working WITH curing his agression rather then the other option of rehoming! One year is no age - he is now reaching maturity and perhaps testing the ground! you owe it to him to correct this behaviour asap - rather then passing it on!
DT


----------



## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

I suggest u talk to the Shar Pei rescue for their advice and c what they suggest, it sounds like he has had no clear boundaries set nor any formal training so he has done what he wants, something I would have thought this breed would need, I hope u can resolve this or at least speak 2 more knowledgeable people within the breed who can help u.

SHAR-PEI RESCUE OF GREAT BRITAIN


----------



## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

The Shar Pei Club of Great Britain
Shar pei club of great britain may be able to help

This dog needs some serious rehabilitation, either you need to get the right behaviourist in or he needs to go to an experienced shar pei home.

I would say get hold of the rescue co ordinator and have a chat, they will do what they can to help


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you had a full vet check to rule out any physical problems?

Also I would consult a behaviourist to assess his behaviour & how you are currently dealing with his issues.

This may help find someone in your area CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers


----------



## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

The page 'About the Shar pei' on the rescue website people have provided tells you everything. "Shar-Pei love to be included in every aspect of daily life and expect to be treated as a family member. However, this is an intelligent, strong-minded and independent dog. From the start they need to be kindly, firmly and consistently shown their position in the household if they are not to take over as top dog.
Me personally (and as a mother myelf) would hand him over to the Shar Pei rescue centre, i really think he stands the best chance there.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SeriousTrouble said:


> Sharpeis are 'known' to be standoffish! perhaps you could invest in some dog socializing classes and working WITH curing his agression rather then the other option of rehoming! One year is no age - he is now reaching maturity and perhaps testing the ground! you owe it to him to correct this behaviour asap - rather then passing it on!
> DT


Agreed! I really do think that you need to adopt a serious approach to addressing this problem by getting professional help. You also need to be consitant with your training & all members of the family must be supportive.

In all honesty if he really is as bad as you say then what real chance does he stand of getting another home? 

As well as searching in the dog behaviour section on here you could also try Cerrrraaaazzzzzy to Calm Quickly « pawsitive dogs which is another PF members site.


----------



## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

Shar peis are difficult dogs, mine was a horror show in her adolesence but is now much calmer and better behaved. She still wont allow touching from strangers but we are working on it. 

I would find a trainer as discussed above, I would also join the csp forum as their breed knowledge is absolutely tip top.

I would work on integrating him into your family as a priority, the several peis i know are all the same in that they hate being away from their family but this can be dealt with, ours can now be left alone for a full day if needs be. 

Teach gently if you can, ours was like an alligator when she was under a year and being taught to yeild toys easily and convert snappy play to kisses was a myst for us. 

Put him on a harness, i can walk sun on a lead but they are so determined that a harness is easier,a male pei i know will only work on a harness and even then he has only been walking well since he reached a year or so. Train walking on concrete away from squirrels and children and other dogs if you can.

Get him on raw food and supplement fish oil, there is evidence that shar pei nervousness is eased by this, and it has pisitively impacted on many peis behaviour Dr linda tintle over at tge pei forums has excellent articles on diet supplement and genetics, try also having a DAP infuser, we find this helps our pei in times if transition. 

They are winderful dogs but are very easy to work up and xan be very destructive once they get to that state. please dont get into the 'dominance' thing with your pei, i have found myself that this is useless. whilst they are not the most biddable dogs they are problem solvers and escape artists, and need to be occupied. We have a cheap [email protected] slalom and jump to keep her mibd busy with constructive play, kongs and toys to keep them engaged are vital when they are left alone. 

I hope you give the diet and trainer a try. Ley us know how you get on. If you need anything ppl here are super knowledgeable and im always around for a rant if you need one x

Eta- what you described is not unheard of for a shar pei, and can be managed if you act now


----------



## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

rachelstraub said:


> Hi
> 
> I've joined this forum in the hope for some assistance and guidance on my 1 year old male Shar Pei called Vader. We are now at the stage where we are considering re-homing him due to his increasing aggressive and dominant behaviour.
> 
> ...


Hi Rachel,

Firstly I'd like to stress that I am far from being a dog expert and certainly have no experience of large, and therefore potentially dangerous dogs. I have Beagles. So please don't take anything that I'm about to say as advice - just food for thought.

My sweet little Beagle boy sounds a lot like your boy. We got him at 7 weeks and on day one he nearly removed a finger from my hand when I tried to take a sock away from him. He screamed the place down on a daily basis when he didn't get his own way. We used positive training methods and took advice throughout. He got worse - to the point where you'd tell him to go out of the kitchen and he'd growl - so you reach out to grab his collar and he'd bite. Yet he was a submissive little boy and very sweet most of the time. We consulted two or three behaviourists - all positive trainers. He just got worse. Now he's a little Beagle and we don't have kids so it wasn't a major worry but it was a problem.

Then we got in a wonderful behaviourist that fixed the problem overnight. She was still a 'positive' trainer but a smart one. She believed very strongly that you should NEVER let a dog call the shots. That rewards based, positive training could so easily become permissive. She simply showed us how to be strong, firm and to enforce our rules. There was no hurting or shouting. But he was NEVER to be allowed to win these battles of will. It was an instant, overnight fix - just our change of attitude put right a 3 year long problem. He wasn't punished, he wasn't afraid - he just accepted that we were in charge and he actually seemed very happy about that!

I wouldn't recommend a Nothing In Life is Free program as I think only experts should recommend. But this kind of thing can, in my experience, make a whole world of difference and it's so simple to do. Maybe something to talk to an expert about?

Not suggesting that I think your problem can be solved so easily but just saying that in my experience instant fixes to this type of problem can and do occur when you get expert help. It's just a matter of finding the right expert.

Best of luck. It must be heartbreaking for you.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

scarter said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> My sweet little Beagle boy sounds a lot like your boy. We got him at 7 weeks and on day one he nearly removed
> a finger from my hand when I tried to take a sock away from him.
> ...


 - aggression is not *'a battle of wills'.* Aggression is aggression.

- *dominance* has a strictly-defined meaning in behavior. it has to do with *resources* - not aggro. 
it is *intra*species, not *inTER*species. And it has sod-all to do with status or rank.

- aggression is not "cured" overnight, or instantly. Aggro can, however be *suppressed* very quickly. 
that does not mean it's been 'fixed', or indeed addressed at all - it's just not on display in the same way, 
but the original problem can easily have been made worse by the suppression.

*E-T-A:* re suppression - 
i know of no other means of 'instantly' changing behavior that has been practiced for some time. 
the fact that the dog has no history of a habitual behavior with me, as opposed to a long history of a particular habit 
with the owner, means that i may be able to do things with, or for, or to the dog, which the owner cannot. 
that i can do it doesn't mean the owner can imitate me; the thing that must change is the dog's emotional response. 
when the trigger - the stimulus or circs - arises, the dog needs a new association *in place of* arousal, fear, anger, etc.
____________________________________________

- aggro is not about 'who calls the shots', 'who's in charge', or a contest of wills.

i'm glad U were happy with the outcome - but none of this is anything i would ever recommend.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rachelstraub said:


> ...12-MO male Shar Pei, Vader. We are... considering re-homing him due to his increasing aggressive *& dominant* behaviour.
> 
> Vader arrived... *at 14-WO... from a [former owner; he was not wanted]*. I have his pedigree...
> & was led to believe... that he was a [purebred] with no health problems.
> ...


hello, Rachel. :001_smile:

please toss the word *dominant* or *dominance* or anything related, from Ur vocabulary when speaking 
of this dog, or other dogs; it only muddies the issues to no effect. Dogs are not 'pack' animals, 
they are highly social but not assigned to a rank depending upon how many other dogs [or people!] 
they've successfully beaten-up; they are not World-Wrrestling contenders for a gem-studded belt 
& a cash prize - they're dogs.  Luckily for us!

re his breed, U have included no photo - so that is impossible to judge or guess. If U post a picture, 
we can have an opinion - but it is a surmise only. A DNA-profile on him, his dam & his sire would prove 
his parentage beyond question. It would not, however, prove that his parents are purebred. Photos of them 
[his sire & dam] would also be helpful, to hazard an intelligent opinion.

re his behavior
none of this is 'not traits of a Shar-Pei', in fact without loads of early socialization & good experiences 
with many people, along WITH punishment that made the dog anxious about people approaching, it's what 
i would expect of a Shar-Pei. They are a guarding breed, extremely cautious of strangers if not thoroughly 
socialized from an early age - and IMO he missed that.

he arrived at 14-WO, which is 2-weeks past the close of primary socialization. U note he was unwanted, 
which strongly supports the idea that his first-family did not 'waste time' socializing him with strangers. 
U had an uphill struggle ahead right there & then - i would have suggested enrolling immediately in a class, 
run by an experienced reward-based trainer, & with good management to prevent him being over-faced.

of course, that did not happen - U were coping on Ur own, & things went rapidly downhill.

how, exactly, did U housetrain him? 
was he interrupted if he began to circle & sniff, or worse yet, squat, by a yell, or being grabbed by the collar? 
i am wondering just when his aversion to having his collar touched began, & why.

when U say, *"punishing any bad behaviour"*, precisely what do U mean by punishing? 
was this verbal scolding, a penny-can to startle the dog, grabbing his collar before scolding him, 
what?

*U can safely discard the word, 'No', when speaking to the dog*; it doesn't tell him anything 
useful or informative, & he obviously has a lot of very-bad associations with it, from past experiences. 
just pitch it out with the trash; instead, tell him WHAT U WANT - or simply call his name & redirect him: 
'Xxxxxxxxx, leave it...', etc. *but he must know what the cue means, before U use any cue.* 
shouting directions at a Namibian cabbie will not get U where U want to go if he understands little English. 
he has to understand what U are asking, before he can comply. Simply luring him can work, for the moment, 
till he learns more reliably-paired cues & behaviors.

i'd also change his name: Naming a dog after a villain with a terrible past-history of genocide & cruelty 
doesn't exactly give him something to live UP to, does it? As he is anxious according to the vet, 
VALOR - for courage - might be a simple substitute; he's going to need all he can get.

i'd suggest calmatives to help him relax; this post has What, When, How, etc - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

i'd suggest a minimum of 3: 1 oral, 1 tactile, & 1 olfactory. Each works with a different sensory system, 
so whichever one works fastest will help support the other 2; they strengthen each other. 
ALL OF THEM are over-the-counter, all are very safe; there are no dosage worries or interactions.

what to do now? 
i would strongly recommend a *credentialed behaviorist: * a CAAB [certified applied 
animal behaviorist] or a veterinary behaviorist [a vet, further board-certified in behavior], or a CABC 
or APBC - *not a 'listener', 'whisperer', 'buster', or any other stripe of franchisee, or simple trainer.*

if U cannot afford it, or cannot take the time, then i'd surrender him to breed rescue WITH *full disclosure:* 
how many persons he has bitten, over what period of time; 
under what circs [over food, when grabbed by the collar, startled from sleep, 
any other situations], 
Did he make contact?, Did he leave any mark, or puncture/tear clothing?,
Did he puncture, scratch, or bruise? 
How deep were any punctures [one-half or less the depth of his canines, or the depth of his canines & more], 
was there tearing / pulling rather than simple punctures?, 
Was there much bruising?, 
Did any bite need drains or did any bite slough skin & tissue?, etc.


----------



## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Have you thought about the possibility he may be autistic??


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> Have you thought about the possibility he may be autistic??


there are a thousand other common causes that can produce his behavior, as described.  
to the best of my knowledge, *no dog* has ever been diagnosed as 'autistic'.

_'When U hear hoofbeats, think horse - not zebra.'_ :wink:


----------



## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> - aggression is not *'a battle of wills'.* Aggression is aggression.


Absolutely! I think we all know that.

But for example, when my dog wanted to stay in the kitchen and I wanted him to leave THAT was a battle of wills. What ever behaviour led to him getting to stay in the kitchen would be repeated - so looking appealing, lifting a paw, rolling on his back, begging, growling...or snapping and biting. The more the behaviour is rewarded the more it's repeated.



leashedForLife said:


> - *dominance* has a strictly-defined meaning in behavior. it has to do with *resources* - not aggro.
> it is *intra*species, not *inTER*species. And it has sod-all to do with status or rank.


OK. And why are you telling me this. I never mentioned dominance?



leashedForLife said:


> - aggression is not "cured" overnight, or instantly. Aggro can, however be *suppressed* very quickly.
> that does not mean it's been 'fixed', or indeed addressed at all - it's just not on display in the same way,
> but the original problem can easily have been made worse by the suppression.


I think that's quite a sweeping statement as you need to understand the root of the problem. In the case of my boy he'd LEARNED to snap and growl because we'd been told when he was a pup that we should back off if he did this or he'd progress to biting.

Did we supress his growling and biting? - I'd say no. He wasn't prevented from growling or snapping - ever. Nor was he punished for it. It was just made clear that it wouldn't achieve the desired result. So for example, he was to have a light lead clipped on him at all times. When he refused to leave the kitchen we'd pick up the lead and and walk out after us. The first time we approached to pick up the lead he growled. We ignored him and led him out the door. Ever since then he leaves the kitchen when we tell him because he knows that growling makes no difference. No suppression. Just ignoring undesirable behavior and making sure it's not rewarded.



> - aggro is not about 'who calls the shots', 'who's in charge', or a contest of wills.


Growling and snapping are behaviours just like begging, sitting, barking, whining. If a dog learns that one of these things will result in a positive outcome for him then he is more likely to repeat that behaviour. Reward the behaviors you want and ignore the ones that you don't want. (letting your dog get what it wants as a result of growling/snapping is rewarding an undesirable behavior). I can't speak for other breeds/dogs, but mine are smart and they do what works. I don't think they know the difference between cute behaviors and undesirable ones. If you reward whining they'll whine. If you reward growling they'll growl.



> i'm glad U were happy with the outcome - but none of this is anything i would ever recommend.


The danger of internet diagnosis is that it's all to easy to jump to the wrong conclusions or completely misunderstand a problem because someone uses different terminology from you. I think it's so important to find a good behaviourist that can actually see for themselves how your pet behaves and how it reacts with you. Diagnosing and advising on the basis of written descriptions is dangerous.


----------



## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Have to agree with Terry here.

The most salient issue regarding his problem behaviour for me would be the fact that he may have missed out on socialisation, and may even have had bad experiences. At 14 weeks old, he's coming to the end of his socialisation period. You say he came from an unwanted household, so I imagine he was not cared for and treated compassionately.

Ergo, IMO this is not about a battle of wills, about Vader being in charge, and your job is not to enforce anything on him that he feels uncomfortable about. I think you need to have help from a behaviourist- an accredited, rewards-based behaviourist. This is not a problem that can be fixed over night!

Aggression is just one behaviour caused by a number of underlying emotions- in your case, fear, frustration, anxiety, social confusion and social _incompetence_. He sounds as if he seriously does not know how to act in environments he doesn't know, and his default behaviour is turning aggressive because that is what works, i.e. gets him out of the situation the quickest. This is not dominance; that word has a meaning that is quite useless in regards to dogs, and is just pushed around in popular circles because it's catchy. If anything, it is seriously detrimental to the relationship between many dogs and owners due to the regime and 'boot camp' attitude and methods that are used to enforce it.

As I said, you should really look for a behaviourist. Until then, reduce the amount of stress he is feeling by:

1) Stopping punishing him for being aggressive- so don't say 'No' etc., as he has just learnt that this is a precursor to bad things, and he becomes aggressive, which is detrimental to your relationship

2) If he won't be crate trained, get him used to having a mat he can lie on, where you do lots of training sessions and he feels relaxed. Have a look:
&#39;Go To Mat&#39; adult dog beginning - Paws & People - YouTube
How to teach: Go to your mat, Drop on Recall + Drop at Heel - YouTube
This should create a safe haven for him, and a place where he can relax with you. Teaching it in a relaxing area first, you can then use it in other environments, such as when your kids are in the room, so Vader has a place to be that makes him feel comfortable. I have just been working on this with a severely shy and nervous one year old dog, and its made him heaps calmer in environments he finds difficult.

3) Practise T-Touch or other massaging techniques, to improve your bond with him and reduce his stress levels.

There are many other things you could do to desensitise him to the environment, and help with more specific problems, but I think you should work with a behaviourist in light of his snapping history. The Look At That game is particularly useful:
Chili Playing "look at that" - YouTube

Also, the Protocol for Relaxation and 'biofeedback' sessions would be beneficial:
Using biofeedback to help your fearful or reactive dog - YouTube
Relaxation Protocol Day 1 - YouTube

Keep us posted. As others have noted, rehoming this dog would be incredibly difficult. I also think you should look for experienced and professional help because you could get on the right tracks with a little more guidance.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> At 14 weeks old, he's coming to the end of his socialisation period.
> You say he came from an unwanted household, so I imagine he was not cared for and treated compassionately.


yes - the timing of his arrival, 14-WO, was very unfortunate; had U gotten him at 10-WO, this could have had 
a different outcome, with a puppy-class & some early intervention.

sadly, now he's 12-MO - & he has habits: A happens, he does B; B happens, he does C. 
deconstructing habits & installing new behaviors is considerably more work than teaching what we want, 
to a friendly, reasonably-confident, average 10-WO pup. The former is a 16-YO with a bad childhood; 
the latter is a toddler who is ready & eager to learn everything, & happy to meet us.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

scarter said:


> Growling and snapping are behaviours just like begging, sitting, barking, whining.
> If a dog learns that one of these things will result in a positive outcome for him then he is more likely
> to repeat that behaviour. Reward the behaviors you want and ignore the ones that you don't want.
> (letting your dog get what it wants as a result of growling/snapping is rewarding an undesirable behavior).
> ...


what do U suggest people do, when their dogs growl?


----------



## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

Just wanted to say good luck with whatever you decide with Vader.....


----------



## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> what do U suggest people do, when their dogs growl?


I would like to pipe in here.

I, personally, would NEVER punish a dog for growling.

I believe that a dog who growls, is trying to tell us that "hey, get away from me I don't like that, or please leave me alone" I would rather have a dog that growls than a silent dog who just goes in for a bite because I cannot read him properly and take signs of when he's said "enough"


----------



## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Firstly, may I ask what his exercise regime is and what diet are you feeding? This could be very important. Does he have any ear/eye issues at present? These could be a factor in his behaviour

Pei are extremely devoted to their family normall and to ostracise them will make things much worse. I do understand your predicament with your children and of course their safety is paramount. At such a young age, I am sure he can be successfully turned around

Please feel free to PM me if needed, I have been in the pei world for many years and also am involved with the breed rescue.


----------



## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> there are a thousand other common causes that can produce his behavior, as described.
> to the best of my knowledge, *no dog* has ever been diagnosed as 'autistic'.
> 
> _'When U hear hoofbeats, think horse - not zebra.'_ :wink:


I have spoken to owners who own/owned dogs that have exhibited atutistic traits, whilst the dog in this thread may not be displaying 'typical' known traits of autism, it is a complex affliction with many many behaviours involved.

Can Animals, Like Dogs Or Cats, Have Autism?

http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

Dog Autism Symptoms - VetInfo


----------



## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> what do U suggest people do, when their dogs growl?


I wouldn't suggest anything as all dogs are different. I really do believe that it's important to get in a good behaviourist - one that will study your dog at length and work out WHY he's doing what he's doing. We struggled for three years following well intentioned internet advice and consulting various trainers (rather than behaviourists). The problem got worse as we didn't understand the root cause.

If like mine, the dog is growling and snapping because it's been rewarded for doing so then it's likely the solution will be very different than with a dog that's growling because it's frightened or has some underlying medical or genetic problem.

But in all cases I would have thought that rewarding an undesirable behavior (such as growling or snapping) should be avoided at all costs. *This doesn't mean beating up or suppressing your dog or any other such sensationalist nonsense.* It just means not getting yourself into a situation where you inadvertently reward the dog for growling.

For example, if he growls when you tell him to get off the sofa and you back off then you are rewarding him. A behaviour that is rewarded is more likely to be repeated.

With us, the solution was to put a light lead on the dog whilst he was in the house. Just for a few days. If he growled when told to do something we'd ignore it and just pick up the lead and lead him off the sofa/out the kitchen etc. He'd jump off quite happily when he realised that growling didn't work. It's amazing how quickly they adapt to new ground rules.

With some dogs I'm sure this would be a bad idea. Only a behaviourist that's studied your dog in it's home environment can really advise on this reliably. We wouldn't have figured out what was going on with our boy on our own. If the dog's growling because it's afraid, or if it's going to really challenge you even with a line on then I'm sure the solution would be to avoid the situation where you provoke a growl. That way the dog is not being rewarded for growling and you aren't making him more likely to growl in future. And then of course the underlying problem would need to be addressed as a separate issue.

But I think the simple rule always holds true - ignore unwanted behaviours and reward wanted behaviours.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that the OP problem is the same as that of my boy. But it could be - certainly a lot of what she says strikes a chord. And if it is then it could be very easily resolved by a good behaviourist. So my point is really to say don't panic and think the worse until you've consulted an expert - an expert that's observed your dog at length in his home environment!


----------



## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> I have spoken to owners who own/owned dogs that have exhibited atutistic traits, whilst the dog in this thread may not be displaying 'typical' known traits of autism, it is a complex affliction with many many behaviours involved.
> 
> Can Animals, Like Dogs Or Cats, Have Autism?
> 
> ...


Interesting, but I imagine it is incredibly hard to diagnose! My opinion of the OP's dog is that he has suffered from seriously remedial socialisation, and it is more extreme than the behaviours a possibly autistic dog would show.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> ...autism... is a complex affliction with many many behaviours involved.
> 
> Can Animals, Like Dogs Or Cats, Have Autism?
> 
> ...


OK - let's assume for the sake of discussion that dogs can have autism, & that THIS dog is autistic. 
- how will this be diagnosed, & by whom? 
- what can be done to improve the autistic dog's behavior?

how have we advanced anything by introducing an extremely-unlikely developmental disorder? 
have we helped the OP toward any sort of solution? I don't think so; in fact, i think we'd only make more confusion.

*autism* is an extremely complex *developmental disorder* which affects perception, cognition, 
sociability, sensory thresholds, the ability to cope with multiple stimuli, recognition of familiar persons, 
other aspects of memory, the ability to interact &/or communicate, tolerance of frustration, emotional integration, 
verbal skills, labeling, co-ordination at both gross motor & fine-motor skills, & more.

many autistic children are pre-verbal, easily frustrated, tantrum, engage in long-term self-stim [hit their heads, 
spin for minutes or hours, play with one type of toy in extremely simplistic patterned ways, & similar], 
obsess over one type of activity or toy, cannot cope with transitions, are extremely withdrawn, dislike touch 
of any kind from anyone for any purpose, scream when restrained or redirected, & can self-harm.

many autistic children don't respond to their own names, look at faces or into other's eyes, & are self-involved. 
they live in a world which they have no interest in sharing with others, & often no ability to share with anyone... 
since they're pre-verbal & noncommunicative.

*DOGS* 
- don't speak verbal languages. 
- usually respond to their own names, ASSUMING they know what their name means, AND they're not deaf. 
- i've yet to meet a dog - out of thousands of dogs i've met - who would avoid looking at anyone, 
bang her/his head into a wall or onto a floor, rock by the hour, spin endlessly, & screamed if i took her/his dolly, 
or whatever special obsessive-toy. Yet i've met a number of autistic children who do one or more of those.

i have met dogs who have *compulsive behaviors* - spinning, tail-chasing, lights-chasing, 
lick granulomas, trancing under contact-objects, fly-snapping, etc - but NONE exhibited any autistic behaviors.

extreme sensitivity to stimulus, especially touch & sound, is another autistic trait. 
again, i've never seen the type of hypersensitivity in dogs, shown by autistic children or autistic adults.

having seen ZERO corresponding behaviors of the autism spectrum in dogs, & being unable to find a single article 
in one peer-reviewed research journal on the subject, i would regard this as about par with having space-aliens 
abduct the dog, remove his brain, substitute another brain from an alien species, & return the dog to his family... 
thus producing extremely-unusual behavior.

in high contrast, ALL of his behavior: snappishness when restrained or provoked, stranger suspicious, 
dog-intolerant or reactive, anxiety, defensive behavior in non-threatening circs - can easily be explained 
in a guarding breed who had *no socialization* or *minimal socialization*, was punished by his first 
or second family during housetraining, may be genetically timid, or has bad memories which make the dog 
untrusting & quick to react to possible threats.

in fact, i'd say he's a classic presentation of an undersocialized Shar-Pei.
or Chow - or Shiba-Inu.


----------



## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> in fact, i'd say he's a classic presentation of an undersocialized Shar-Pei.
> or Chow - or Shiba-Inu.


This is how certain breeds are badly labelled.

The fact is we do NOT know if this dog has underlying health issues. Bad eyes causing pain and/or poor sight could manifest in this kind of 'bad' behaviuor as could very painful ears


----------



## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

scarter said:


> ...
> If like mine, the dog is growling and snapping because it's been rewarded for doing so then it's likely the solution will be very different than with a dog that's growling because it's frightened or has some underlying medical or genetic problem.
> ...
> 
> ...


Just want to put my two pence in here, as I think this is a crucial point concerning how the OP will interact with her dog.

Growling, in my opinion, always comes from fear. Growling and aggressive behaviours are not used lightly by a dog- they are seriously high-risk strategies, used in emergency situations when a dog is pushed so far they have feel like they have no other option. Growling is a behaviour on a continuum of stress. By reading other behaviours below that point of stress, growling can be avoided.

Thus, no dog is simply going to go straight to growling and snapping immediately- growling and snapping is always in a response to a threatening interaction and fearfulness on the dog's behalf, and is not used lightly. A dog that growls and snaps, and gets rewarded for it by being removed from the situation, is of course more likely to reach for those behaviours in the future as they learn that those are the only behaviours that work. Offensive aggression can be used in these circumstances, but the underlying emotion is still fear, IMO, and the behaviour is not being performed just because a dog has been rewarded for it in the past- it goes much deeper than that.

The way I have interpreted your post Scarter is that you still rewarded your dog for growling at you when on the sofa, by removing him from the situation. Removal from a stressful situation is a powerful reward, and thus, whether you got off the sofa, or led him off the sofa, they are both a reward for the growling. Could this be why he jumped off so willingly? Perhaps in time, he just became more habituated to the situation, and therefore relaxed a lot more? I don't think that your dog suddenly saw growling as ineffective because you didn't move away. The underlying reason for growling would still have been present. My gut feeling is that there was a different reason for the improvement in behaviour.

I don't think what I've written is particularly clear, but in essence, I think your dog still growled because he was fearful, not simply because he'd been rewarded for it in the past and wanted to challenge you. Although I don't really have any info about your case other than the small amount you've told us!

My point is, growling should be avoided at all costs. It is communication that the dog is not comfortable. I don't see it as a 'challenge' to authority, or anything like that, and certainly not something to be punished. Yes, you can reward the growling by moving away from the dog, but that should not be an issue, because the whole goal is to avoid any situation that makes the dog growl, i.e. make your dog more relaxed in stressful environments. The goal is not to wait for the problem to happen and then deal with it when it arises.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

pearltheplank said:


> This is how certain breeds are badly labeled.


having met many dogs of those breeds with precisely these sorts of behaviors, 
i'm not simply pigeonholing breeds as 'bad' - i'm referring to dogs i've met. 


pearltheplank said:


> ...we do NOT know if this dog has underlying health issues.
> Bad eyes causing pain and/or poor sight could manifest in this kind of 'bad' behaviuor,
> as could very painful ears.


yup; he could be blind, deaf, have THYROID issues, ear-infections, an abscessed tooth, 
sinus problems, severe headaches [BP abnormal, strange blood-vessels, clot...], or any number 
of other health problems.

_he could also simply be a very-undersocialized pup of a guarding breed, 
who's learned that humans are untrustworthy & unpredictable, & may cause him pain or fright. _

if he has cataracts, retinal dysplasia, ears full of pus, a cracked molar with an infection into the sinus... 
HOPEFULLY the owner has had the dog to the vet for a thorough exam to check that none of these 
are present?

i would suggest a *5-way thyroid panel* to be sent to the Michigan State Univ 
vet-labs for analysis; they have the world's largest database of breed-specific thyroid values, & can give better 
advice than any in-house simple 'cost-cutting' ONE-value test, which IMO is utterly useless, & money wasted.

if his thyroid panel comes back *borderline low*, i'd ask my vet about a short course of low-dose 
thyroid supplements. If his behavior improves, there's a strong indicator. MANY dogs have behavior symptoms 
without any overt physical symptoms [greasy sparse coat, wt-gain, lethargy, hyperpigmentation, etc].

cheers, 
- terry


----------



## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> I don't think what I've written is particularly clear, but in essence, I think your dog still growled because he was fearful, not simply because he'd been rewarded for it in the past and wanted to challenge you. *Although I don't really have any info about your case other than the small amount you've told us!*


The behaviourist that studied my dog closely (rather than listening to a brief description) disagreed with you. Which emphasizes my point that taking advice via the internet can be very dangerous.



Rottiefan said:


> My point is, growling should be avoided at all costs. It is communication that the dog is not comfortable. I don't see it as a 'challenge' to authority, or anything like that, and certainly not something to be punished. Yes, you can reward the growling by moving away from the dog, but that should not be an issue, because the whole goal is to avoid any situation that makes the dog growl, i.e. make your dog more relaxed in stressful environments. The goal is not to wait for the problem to happen and then deal with it when it arises.


For the most part you are now reiterating what I wrote earlier. However, I would challenge one of your points. It CAN be a HUGE issue to reward the growling by moving away. It turned my sweet little Beagle into a growling menace. Sure, he was 'uncomfortable' about giving up stolen items; he was 'uncomfortable' about being asked to leave the kitchen where all the food was; he was 'uncomfortable' about being told to get off the bed. Yet big surprise - the moment he realised that growling wasn't rewarded he suddenly wasn't uncomfortable about not getting everything he wanted. He was more relaxed and contented. I guess it's just a bit like kids - respond to their tantrums and you'll get more tantrums. Let them see that behaving badly doesn't get rewarded and you have happier, better behaved kids.

I will add that I have two dogs - both Beagles. The girl would never dream of growling or snapping at a human. I can't imagine anything provoking her to do it. But the boy had no qualms about this. Someone did once tell me (in fact they showed me an article which I've now lost) that 10% of dogs will use growling, snapping, biting in order to get their own way - to acquire resources and so on. Maybe you just haven't come across one of these 10% yet?


----------



## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

scarter said:


> The behaviourist that studied my dog closely (rather than listening to a brief description) disagreed with you. Which emphasizes my point that taking advice via the internet can be very dangerous.


I never said what I wrote was correct, just my thoughts on the way I interpreted it.



> For the most part you are now reiterating what I wrote earlier. However, I would challenge one of your points. It CAN be a HUGE issue to reward the growling by moving away. It turned my sweet little Beagle into a growling menace. Sure, he was 'uncomfortable' about giving up stolen items; he was 'uncomfortable' about being asked to leave the kitchen where all the food was; he was 'uncomfortable' about being told to get off the bed. Yet big surprise - the moment he realised that growling wasn't rewarded he suddenly wasn't uncomfortable about not getting everything he wanted. He was more relaxed and contented. I guess it's just a bit like kids - respond to their tantrums and you'll get more tantrums. Let them see that behaving badly doesn't get rewarded and you have happier, better behaved kids.


What confuses me about your case was that it seemed to happen _too_ quick. You'd expect a dog that was growling and becoming hostile to go through some phase of extinction burst- e.g. more growling, snapping etc., before the behaviour began to dissipate- not just suddenly make the association between growling and no reward. That's some quick learning! Especially in a stressful situation, where learning is greatly inhibited. It just doesn't sit right with me, but that's beside the point of this thread.



> I will add that I have two dogs - both Beagles. The girl would never dream of growling or snapping at a human. I can't imagine anything provoking her to do it. But the boy had no qualms about this. Someone did once tell me (in fact they showed me an article which I've now lost) that 10% of dogs will use growling, snapping, biting in order to get their own way - to acquire resources and so on. Maybe you just haven't come across one of these 10% yet?


10% of what? The whole population of dogs in the world? Of Beagles? Seems to be a very sweeping statement by the article to be honest. I don't imagine any dog will do this without there being an underlying behavioural, genetic, or medical issue. To me, these viewpoints come from the whole 'dominance' 'pack structure' side of dog behaviour, which is obviously on shaky ground. But anyway...


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

scarter said:


> ...I would challenge one of your points. It CAN be a HUGE issue to reward the growling by moving away.
> It turned my sweet little Beagle into a growling menace.
> 
> Sure, he was 'uncomfortable' about giving up stolen items; he was 'uncomfortable' about being asked
> ...


a growl is not *'menace'* - it is not automatically threat. A growl is first & foremost, *communication*. 
the dog feels threatened & defensive; it is one of many *distance-increasing* signals.

i've worked with many dogs who growled; some had never bitten yet, some had delivered several serious bites.
all of them felt much safer & more relaxed when people heeded their communications, eased off 
& gave more distance, & then worked on reducing the dog's worries in those situations: the vet office, 
the grooming table, getting their claws trimmed, being approached by strangers, & so on. 


scarter said:


> ...I have two... Beagles. The girl would never dream of growling or snapping at a human.
> *I can't imagine anything provoking her to [growl].* But the boy had no qualms about this.
> Someone did once tell me (...they showed me an article which I've now lost) that *10% of dogs will use [growls,
> snaps, bites] to get their own way* - to acquire resources and so on.
> ...


 - growls do not mark a dog as 'bad'; not growling does not mean a dog will not bite, either. 
many fearful dogs do not waste time growling, or have had their growls punished; 
they go directly to BITE after at most, a short freeze - easily overlooked by a pet-dog owner, 
but which is actually a much-scarier signal than a growl: a FREEZE is the calm before the storm.

- that the female-Beagle has never snapped at anyone yet, does not mean she would *'never bite'.* 
what varies widely between animals is *under what circs* the individual would bite. 
what worries one animal is of no concern whatever to another.

also *triggers multiply*, they don't 'add' to a sum: they multiply to a product, so 2 triggers is not 
1 + 1 = 2 times as difficult or risky, but 2-squared = 4-times as difficult or risky as just ONE of those triggers. 
and just to note, it's the RISK which quadruples: if this dog has 50/50 odds of snapping at the vet, 
& i add a 2nd known-trigger ----say, an unknown male vet-tech looming over him --- i've just raised the odds 
from 50% to 200% - it's now virtually certain the dog will not only snap, but bite with force.

- it sounds to me as tho the male-Beagle is very anxious about people approaching or interfering. 
so yes - a house-line or drag-line gives him more distance, he is not grabbed by the collar, he's not cornered 
& chased off the sofa, etc; he has more distance from the person, & the drag-line leads him off, 
vs him being 'told off' for being up on the furniture, or pursued to evict him from the kitchen, & so on.

- IMO & IME, *100% of dogs whose signaling is intact* & whose growls have not been punished, 
assuming they are not an Asian breed, *will growl - * & i WANT TO HAVE THE DOG GROWL. 
dogs cannot phone, e-mail, send a legal cease-&-desist letter, fax, send smoke signals, or otherwise 
*communicate with us - * a growl is an urgent message which we would do well to heed & honor.

'Growling is Good' - 
Growling is Good! « Companions Training Blog


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hands Off My Bone! : The Thoughtful Animal

a study of growls & their social meaning. 


> _ The researchers recorded dog growls in three contexts:
> food guarding from an unfamiliar dog (Figure 2, panel A),
> playing tug of war with an unfamiliar human (Figure 2, panel B),
> and being approached in a threatening manner by an unfamiliar human (Figure 2, panel C).
> ...


that's a 360 growl sample, spread over 3-dozen dogs. Then they played the recordings to one dog 
*with no other dog present* to see how the listening dog reacted to each type of growl. 


> _ When the food guarding growl was played to the dog,
> 11 of 12 dogs withdrew from the bone within 15 seconds.
> Compare this to only 2 of 12 withdrawing upon hearing the threatening stranger growl,
> and 4 of 12 withdrawing upon hearing the play growl.
> ...


clearly, the dogs are communicating something more than 'just a growl'. 
it carries emotion & intentionality.

try the audio-samples & see if U can hear a difference between the RG-growl & suspicious-stranger growl.

3 more articles on growls - 
Dealing With a Growling Dog

Understanding Dog Growling - Why Dogs Growl

Dog Training for Dog Growling - Dealing With A Growling Dog

________________________________________


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Personally if I were you and had young children, could not control this dog neither could my OH I would talk with the breed rescue and ask them to take him. I would never, ever put any child of mine at such risk regardless of if this behaviour is the dogs fault or not. One things for sure it sure isn't your children's fault either and they shouldn't have to live in fear of their family dog! :nonod:


----------



## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

I'm sorry to read of your problems. You've been given some very good advice on this thread, BUT you do have a serious behaviour problem on your hands, and reading anything on the internet or in a book is not going to fix anything at this stage, if you are serious about sorting out your dog (and really your only other options are rehoming or PTS) then you really do need to invest in the help of a good behaviourist who can see what's going on from a non-biased point of view as all we have is your description coming from your (very understandably) distressed and upset viewpoint, i'd recommend COAPE qualified for which someone has posted a link. It will take time, effort and money, but honestly it's not something I (as an almost qualified COAPE behaviourist) would be happy advising on over the net.

Good luck and stay safe


----------



## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

Just wondering how the op is getting on, hope things are getting better?


----------



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I have spoken to owners who own/owned dogs that have exhibited atutistic traits, whilst the dog in this thread may not be displaying 'typical' known traits of autism, it is a complex affliction with many many behaviours involved.
> 
> Can Animals, Like Dogs Or Cats, Have Autism?
> 
> ...


I never knew dogs could get Autism?!

xxx


----------



## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

I really hope no news is good news and the owner had some luck with vader, ive kept my eye on the shar pei rescue page and havent seen him. They can be really amazing dogs, but woo boy that teenage bit can be rough.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mamf said:


> I really hope no news is good news and the owner had some luck with vader, ive kept my eye on the shar pei rescue page and havent seen him. They can be really amazing dogs, but woo boy that teenage bit can be rough.


I always find these threads really strange. The intial posts always seem really desperate for advice & yet the OP never seems to come back - I've noticed quite a few :huh:

When I first posted here (& even now) I'm always checking for replies & answering with progress to try & address the problems I'm having .... maybe I just haven't got anything better to do though 

I hope the OP is managing to get things under control


----------



## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I always find these threads really strange. The intial posts always seem really desperate for advice & yet the OP never seems to come back - I've noticed quite a few :huh:
> 
> When I first posted here (& even now) I'm always checking for replies & answering with progress to try & address the problems I'm having .... maybe I just haven't got anything better to do though
> 
> I hope the OP is managing to get things under control


The cynical part of me worriesthat the answers people get here involve alot of work and can be a sizeable investment. I guess this one struck a chord with me as there are so many pei's in rescue, i really hoped we'd helped keep one in his home.


----------

