# The impact that owning a dog with behavioural problems has on the family.



## 3Rachel3 (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi all *waves*

I'm currently writing an essay for university based on this subject, and wondered if anybody had any anecdotes to share relating to this subject? 

Would be so grateful! Thanks


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## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

My eldest boy Merlin has behavioural issues that stem from before we got him. We were told he was 8-10 weeks when we got him but he actually turned out to be 14 weeks (Don't think they knew they were giving him to someone with experience), his behaviour and physical characteristics were matching 14 weeks not 8-10. We're not entirely sure what happened to him whilst he was in this home but something has definitely happened to him, sadly he can't tell us so all we can do is piece together by how he acts. Anyway he has quite bad issues with a lot of things, we can't groom him without help as he panics and will turn on us, he goes from cute and cuddly to snarling and nervous when bikes, skateboards or scooters go past or get too close to him which obviously makes people think hes a bit of a nasty dog - They don't take into consideration he could have had something happen to him.

It can take a very large toll on the family. The vet has told us if we didn't own Merlin there are very few people who would be able to deal with him he's very full on, but we love him far too much to be able to let him go regardless of his issues. We've had various behavioural assessments when it comes to his behaviour but sadly there isn't a lot they can do for him. But as far as taking the toll on us it can be a very demanding job but isn't owning a dog demanding in itself? Hes very protective of myself and my dad, which can be difficult when it comes to going out or having people round for example my boyfriend which puts a strain on how we act with each other. He will howl and cry when one of us goes out (yet both going out together he's fine), he will cry and bark if hes not in the room with myself and my boyfriend or myself and my dad. The worst thing though is how he acts when hes out, i'm constantly scared he will have a nip at someone one day and that will be that, we have to keep a very close eye on him. The fear and worry of that is something that often keeps me up at night because I adore my dog and would hate anything to happen to him. It can put a strain on my relationship with my dad because of arguments we've had over what to do about specific behaviours. You can get to a point where you get upset with him although you know its not his fault and it becomes quite a struggle to walk him in fear something will happen. We've tried muzzles and harnesses but he works himself up to the point of actually self harming himself when these are on because he panics so much, so theres little we can do to help or control him. That being said, he has a great attachment to my dad, he eventually worked out a good routine and plan to walk him by which has helped a great deal.

I'm sorry i'm rambling a bit, i hope at least some of this is explanatory haha.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

It takes a huge toll on family life, we had a very people aggressive dog, huge guarding problem, its a very long story but basically we couldnt keep him and he was due to be pts, luckily we manged to rehome him after much searching,it all depends on the family and family life when it comes to keeping a dog like this.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

OP- you could perhaps create an online survey questionnaire. That would be a good way of collecting data and you could present some of the findings where appropriate in your essay. 
What is your essay question?


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

i have a people aggressive dog and the impact on family life is huge, i have to constantly make sure he can never get out of the house or garden, i very rarely go to any friends house as i cant take him with me, i cant walk him down town, even when muzzled as its far too stressfull, normal walks i have to be constantly on the look out for people that might come too close
he loves me and my family and we love him but sometimes i really wish i hadn't of got him
rehoming is never an option as he wouldn't go with anyone else plus i dont think it would be fair to give others the problem and i feel i am the only one that can keep him safe
and even tho i have considered a pts it would break my heart


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

blitzens mum said:


> i have a people aggressive dog and the impact on family life is huge, i have to constantly make sure he can never get out of the house or garden, i very rarely go to any friends house as i cant take him with me, i cant walk him down town, even when muzzled as its far too stressfull, normal walks i have to be constantly on the look out for people that might come too close
> he loves me and my family and we love him but sometimes i really wish i hadn't of got him
> rehoming is never an option as he wouldn't go with anyone else plus i dont think it would be fair to give others the problem and i feel i am the only one that can keep him safe
> and even tho i have considered a pts it would break my heart


Its so hard isnt it and yes we didnt take the option lightly when we decided pts was our only option, we and barney were very lucky he was rehomed and had a wonderful life as he would have never been happy with us, we couldnt meet his needs and at the time with 5 children here most of the time, we couldnt risk them being harmed.


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

haeveymolly said:


> Its so hard isnt it and yes we didnt take the option lightly when we decided pts was our only option, we and barney were very lucky he was rehomed and had a wonderful life as he would have never been happy with us, we couldnt meet his needs and at the time with 5 children here most of the time, we couldnt risk them being harmed.


it breaks my heart to be honest


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

blitzens mum said:


> it breaks my heart to be honest


I know some people have a lot to answer for


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> ...Merlin has behavioural issues that stem from before we got him. We were told he was 8 - 10-WO when we got him
> but he actually turned out to be 14-WO... We're not entirely sure what happened to him whilst... in this home
> but something... definitely happened..., sadly he can't tell us - all we can do is piece [it] together by how he acts.
> 
> ...


that last - in *bold, & particularly purple* - is not true.

even simply with the help of a decent DIY book, there are many things that can be done to change 
his problem-behaviors, B-Mod is after all specifically intended to alter behavior in any species.
U change the emotional response to the trigger, & the individual's behavior changes as a result.

i'd strongly suggest the book _Click to Calm_ & the use of OTC calmatives - 
What, When, Where, How, etc, are in this single post:
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

OTC calmatives can be oral [given by mouth], olfactory [nasal], or tactile [touch] - 
IME it's best to use at least 3, one from each category, as whichever is the fastest effect 
will help to facilitate the other 2, maximizing the results while minimizing cost.

There are also dozens of Control Unleashed videos, as well as "lOok at that" - both B-Mod techniques used 
to reduce reactivity, which is what U are describing; it's based in anxiety, but there's no reason to say, 
"this dog is a hopeless case." 
Yoshi Before Control Unleashed - YouTube

FWIW, i think the ppl who said so are excessively-negative; if the owner is willing to put in the time, 
i've seen dogs who were not merely reactive but who had bite-histories, & they improved so much that 
they seemed to be different dogs - literally a whole new individual. Aside from markings, they barely 
resembled their former-selves.


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## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> that last - in *bold, & particularly purple* - is not true.
> 
> even simply with the help of a decent DIY book, there are many things that can be done to change
> his problem-behaviors, B-Mod is after all specifically intended to alter behavior in any species.
> ...


I'm going by what the behaviourists have said to us after assessing my dog, A lot of the methods they would and could use didn't apply to Merlin because of various aspects of whats happened to him, we can only go on a day to day basis and do what we can when we meet with the behaviourist every month. He has a lot of problems that so far haven't been possible to fix. Whether or not it will be possible with further work with the behaviourist over the next few months or not i don't know, but i'm going by what i've been told and what my experiences have been since we've had him. Hes not exactly a textbook case unfortunately. I put in a lot of time with my dog, more time than a lot of other owners I know. I know my dog better than I know most people, if there was something that could have been done by now i'd have done it in a heartbeat. Would you suggest seeing a different behaviourist if i'm getting nowhere with our current one? It'd be interesting to talk to you more about it actually if possible.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I'm currently writing an essay for university based on this subject, and wondered if anybody had any anecdotes to share relating to this subject?


Long, long overdue.

Out of interest are you doing an animal behaviour course or social sciences of some kind, if your genre catches on & get some cooperation from affected dog owners I can see it becoming a significant theme for social science students work. No I am not personally affected by the subject.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> I'm going by what the behaviourists... said... after assessing my dog, [many] methods they would
> & could use, didn't apply to Merlin b/c of... what's happened to him...


none of us is telepathic, so we can't know "what happened to Merlin" - we can only look at his actions,
& guesstimate backward from them to some imagined past. Besides, who cares what happened?
TODAY he does X, Y, & Z reactive behaviors - why not reduce them, by changing his emotional response?


Lovehatetragedy said:


> ...we can only go on a day to day basis & do what we can, [meeting] the behaviourist [monthly].
> 
> He has a lot of problems [not] possible to fix, [so far]. Whether or not it will be possible with further work...
> i don't know, but i'm going by what i've been told and what my experiences have been since we've
> had him. He's not exactly a textbook case, unfortunately.


"textbook cases" are either very, very rare & thus get loads of attn for their bizarre nature, or dirt-common.

reactive dogs are dirt-common; they are possible in any breed, tho some are more prone than others 
[GSDs & BCs come to mind immediately, as do Chis & MinPins]. They are seen on every sidewalk - 
& there are many simple ways to help them _relax_ & be less-stressed that aren't enormously costly.

Did U read the post on calmatives?

Did U check out the book? :001_smile:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Owning a dog with behavioural problems is extremely stressful which has the obvious effects on individuals, in my case it made me very tearful and anxious which upset my husband to see, he responded with frustrated anger when he felt there was nothing he could do to help me, to which I responded with more anxious anger and frustration. 

I became (and still am ) pretty obsessed with trying to do/research whatever I can to help my dog through this. This has and still can on occasion result in falling outs. 

On the other hand the bond that you have with your dog and with your family if they choose to support you can be strengthened, the strain that they give you can result in even more joy when things go right. We wouldn't laugh nearly so much at the things she does which with any other dog would probably seem naughty.

If I cant put her in the car and take her somewhere quiet my heart sinks at the thought of trying to get her round our estate where every other house holds her trigger, other dogs, but she brings a smile to my face and laughter lines to my eyes several times every day.


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## nefott (Dec 6, 2012)

We've had a rescue BC with a number of behavioural problems and is very reactive to people for nearly 8 months now and it has affected our lives in many ways.

*The Bad*
He chases shadows, so we now live in almost total darkness as we have had to cover up any potential areas where reflections or shadows can be seen.

He attacks the TV, it affects what we can watch and when. Plus adds cost as we have had to invest in new furniture to try to get the TV out of reach.

Friends are reluctant to visit because we can never be totally sure how he is going to react. Similarly we can't take him to visit friends.

He hates phones and cameras and when we move out of our (rented) accommodation we are going to have to replace the carpet as he bites it when over stressed.

We can't let him out in to the garden on his own in case he throws himself at the fence barking when he hears people going passed. Or chases shadows, stares at one spot on the fence for ages or tries to dig through to the earth's core to find his shadow.

We can't go on holiday unless he comes with us as we can't put him in kennels (I think it would send him completely over the edge having spent months in the dog's home) nor can we expect friends or family to deal with his issues. Taking him on holiday is not easy either as a change in his routine can increase his reactive behaviour.

Walks can be stressful as we have to be on constant watch for triggers. I know it shouldn't affect me but the disgusted looks I get from people who assume that he is either very aggressive or I can't handle him are upsetting. And having total strangers tell you you should have your dog put down is not pleasant.

My partner and I don't always agree on how to handle him and I end up dealing with the dog the majority of the time. It is tiring and stressful and leads to arguments.

We spend a lot of time and money on working to modify his behaviour and seeing behaviourists.

*The Good*
He has made loads of progress in the time we have had him, though sometimes it is difficult to remember that.

He has a fantastic character and makes us laugh every day.

Seeing him happily go up to people he knows for fuss when a few months ago he would have barked and lunged is heart warming.

He adores us and the feeling is mutual (although there are some days.....).

If we didn't have him, I don't think he would be alive today.

Sorry for the ramble, once started I couldn't stop!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

nefott said:


> [our] rescue BC [has] a number of behavioural problems and is very reactive to people...
> 
> = He chases shadows, so we now live in almost total darkness...
> 
> ...


a lot of these reactions are visual.

Please consider a Calming-Cap to help reduce the visual stim, it's very simple & safe, merely fuzzes 
his visual focus for anything that's not close by; he won't be bashing into furniture, he just won't 
see stuff beyond 6-ft away very clearly.

also OTC calmatives can be very helpful:
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

specific to the TV, an anti-glare screen to provide 'privacy' for a computer monitor will help - 
to see the image, U must be directly in front of it; an angled view, & the screen is charcoal gray.


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## nefott (Dec 6, 2012)

Leashedforlife - thanks for the tips. 

We have used DAP (collar and diffuser) and also had him on Zylkene and another drug that I can't for the life of me remember the name of now  EDIT just remembered it was Selgian!!!

DAP didn't seem to have any effect, Zylkene calmed him down a bit (although that may just have been him getting used to his new home) and the other one made him worse!

With the TV it's only when there is violence/chase scenes and sometimes football on. He seems to sit and watch TV quite calmly the rest of the time.

Will look into the calming cap though.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

introducing the Calming-Cap to a dog who's never seen or worn one:
The Calming Cap - Part 2 - YouTube

personally, i'd ask the DOG to *interact* with the cap, as here:
Desensitization to basket muzzle - YouTube

i always prefer to have the dog put her or his face into the muzzle or Cap. 
i don't put it on them - They put it on themselves.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

nefott said:


> With the TV, it's only... violence/ chase scenes & sometimes football.
> He seems to sit and watch TV quite calmly the rest of the time.


the Cap will also help with ppl-reactivity when he's out on leash, or off.

anything not close-by is fuzzy, so movement is less-likely to trigger a reaction. :thumbup1:
other dogs, ppl, a distant ball, birds, etc, are less 'obvious'.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

nefott said:


> We've had a rescue BC with a number of behavioural problems and is very reactive to people for nearly 8 months now and it has affected our lives in many ways.
> 
> *The Bad*
> He chases shadows, so we now live in almost total darkness as we have had to cover up any potential areas where reflections or shadows can be seen.
> ...


That sounds like a real handful as i said on my previous post we had an extremely aggressive dog so i really understand how stressful it is.

We were and he was extremely lucky to get him rehomed, somewhere that was suitable for him, one of the behaviourist did suggest things to try but they take time and we just didnt have time, i was so scared that in the meantime he would do real damage. I do hope you find something that will at least ease your problems.


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## nefott (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks. It is stressful, and he is hard work but he is also rewarding. While reactive he is not really aggressive (if that makes sense?) In the time we have had him he has nipped someone (my boss actually!) but he is not aggressive in any way to us and as far as we know has never properly bitten anyone/ anything. (I know a nip can be considered a bite, but he did not break the skin or bite down)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

nefott said:


> ... While reactive he is not really aggro... In the time we've had him, he... nipped someone...
> but he's not aggro in any way to us, & as far as we know, has never properly bitten anyone...
> 
> I know a nip can be considered a bite, but *he did not break the skin or bite down*.


Sorry to bear bad news, but a nip -*is*- a bite --- it's just a very inhibited one. 

Even a 'bite' without tooth contact is still a bite, as the intention was there - it's a threat, rather like 
holding one's hand palm-flat & arm out to strike someone?... the blow might not land, but the intent 
is clearly to threaten - it COULD be delivered at any moment.

Please see *Dunbar's bite scale*, which quantifies the severity of bites so that one can guesstimate 
the level of threat, potential prognosis, & the seriousness of the dog's fear or aggro [the motive].

my buddy Leonard in Switzerland has posted a clear text copy - 
Ian Dunbar?s Bite Assessment Scale

Note the "level 2" description:
_Level 2 - 
Teeth touch skin but no puncture. May have red mark / minor bruise from dogs head or snout, 
may have minor scratches from paws / nails. Minor surface abrasions. _


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I know a nip can be considered a bite,


In UK, a dog does not have to bite at all doe n owner to be charged putting the dog at risk of being PTS, if it 'appears to be threatening' & the person calls the cops & tells the cops he/she wants the person charged then there's not much hope for that persons dog.

DEFRA tightened up penalties last Oct but I cant remember in what way, TV news reports on the increase in dog aggression over this past few years are very unfavourable to dogs. Little wonder when animal rights extremists frequent all these forums telling naive pet owners "reward the good, ignore the bad" - I wish the law would apply that principle to me, I would be out robbing every shop till in London.

Ignoring a behaviour which starts to recurr (even only once, regardless of species) means the behaviour has been 'positive reinforced', now aint that just a new theory
.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

SleepyBones said:


> *In UK, a dog does not have to bite at all doe n owner to be charged putting the dog at risk of being PTS*, if it 'appears to be threatening' & the person calls the cops & tells the cops he/she wants the person charged then there's not much hope for that persons dog.
> 
> DEFRA tightened up penalties last Oct but I cant remember in what way, TV news reports on the increase in dog aggression over this past few years are very unfavourable to dogs. Little wonder when animal rights extremists frequent all these forums telling naive pet owners "reward the good, ignore the bad" - I wish the law would apply that principle to me, I would be out robbing every shop till in London.
> 
> ...


Where's the case law for that then?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Oh, out of my remit, Sir Colin Tenant does the casework on cults & their high priestesses.

The Guild of Dog Trainers - Dog Training, Dog Training and Behaviour, Dog Training Courses, Dog Behaviour Courses
.


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## nefott (Dec 6, 2012)

Sorry, my wording was probably not the best for explaining what I meant. I know a nip is a bite. And we do take measures to ensure his and others safety, we don't just brush the nip under the carpet as of no consequence.

I was just trying to explain that he is not really aggressive, and we and others are not constantly afraid of him. The majority of the time he is high maintenance but not threatening in any way.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

SleepyBones said:


> Oh, out of my remit, Sir Colin Tenant does the casework on cults & their high priestesses.
> 
> The Guild of Dog Trainers - Dog Training, Dog Training and Behaviour, Dog Training Courses, Dog Behaviour Courses
> .


Talking rubbish seems to be well without your remit though


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## Guest (May 4, 2013)

SleepyBones said:


> Ignoring a behaviour which starts to recurr (even only once, regardless of species) means the behaviour has been 'positive reinforced', now aint that just a new theory
> .


Unless the behavior was attention seeking, then ignoring it would be punishing.

Some of us have practical experience as well as theories


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

SleepyBones said:


> Ignoring a behaviour which starts to recurr (even only once, regardless of species) means the behaviour has been 'positive reinforced', now aint that just a new theory
> .


No it's not a new theory. Although ignoring nipping or mouthing which was produced for attention seeking or abnormal appeasing type behaviour would be a punishing.

What you seem to miss though is that these responses are produced for a reason and the reinforcement/punishment that takes place happens for a reason. One BIG factor is the *emotional state/response of the animal in question*. 
*They are not robots. *
They are living, emotional, sentient beings. They feel fear and pain and this affects how and why they behave and learn (mere ability to learn, function and perform species-appropriate/normal behaviours long-term is often seriously hindered by high stress levels and the associated chemical changes that happen in the body as a result).

Just for your information 

Your post reminded me of a call we once got from an individual who had put an electric shock collar on her fear aggressive border collie and was zapping it every time it so much as looked at someone. Apparently she couldn't understand why it wasn't working. Poor flipping misunderstood dog.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

SleepyBones said:


> Little wonder when animal rights extremists frequent all these forums telling naive pet owners "reward the good, ignore the bad" - *I wish the law would apply that principle to me, I would be out robbing every shop till in London.*
> .


You are human. 
Humans have moral reasoning. 
It is wrong to steal. Rather it is not a socially or morally acceptable behaviour in human society to steal.

Dogs are dogs. Dogs are not humans. 
Dogs don't have any sense of moral reasoning. 
Aggression is not a socially acceptable behaviour in that it generally does not encourage social bonds/relationships/attachments. Attachments/relationships are important to canines because evolutionarily "safety is in numbers".
Aggression therefore is to be avoided and when it is produced it reflects the severity of the situation, as assessed/viewed by the aggressor.

Fearful dogs use aggression because they feel the situation is serious enough that they need to do so to "stay safe" and survive. 
Aggression is evolutionarily a risky behaviour. Aggression is produced when the dog feels worried enough to have to do so. Dogs of course vary according to genetics (predispositions for fearful behaviour), normal or abnormal brain function etc. 
They still, however do not have any sense of moral reasoning.

I wonder if you have any experience of actually working with aggressive dogs. I hope not.

Using force on an aggressive dog is extremely foolish. Apart from being darn right crazy (do you have their teeth, speed, agility and strength?), it can also only indicate an ignorance of why animals are aggressive and a general ignorance with regards to animal behaviour science. When aggression is produced, all in the garden is not rosy. There is stress and there is fear. Having compassion, being patient and using methods that are not counter-productive, that are systematic (and considerate of the effect that stress has on the body) and that prove to the animal (at their own pace) that there is no need to fear are the way forward and help to change the way in which the brain responds and how the animal perceives things.

As I said before, they are not robots with switches. They are living sentient beings that feel fear and stress just like humans.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

nefott said:


> Sorry, my wording was probably not the best for explaining what I meant. I know a nip is a bite.
> And we do take measures to ensure his & others' safety, we don't just brush the nip under the carpet
> as of no consequence.
> 
> ...


no worries, i figured that was the basic idea. :yesnod: However, for any novice reading, it could 
appear that bites which don't cause active bleeding would not count, or aren't 'real' bites, which would be 
very unfortunate. Folks who think bruises from teeth are inconsequential, or tooth-scratches are "accidents", 
don't realize what exquisite control dogs have over the force, pressure, & target of their teeth - if one 
tooth touches, it's intentional; bites that result from PAIN can be sheer reflex, not under conscious control, 
& bites when the dog is suddenly startled [tripped over / stepped on while sleeping, etc] are also not 
necessarily "intended", but are also normally *inhibited* by the dog before they hit flesh.

Trainers also use the dog's bite-history to gauge the potential risk: How serious is the aggro?
How terrified is the dog? Can they safely work with this dog sans muzzle? 
Will they have to avoid public settings?... & so on.

Also, What's the prognosis? 
Dogs who are past 2 & have been biting since before puberty have an established, fluent habit;
it's going to take time & much work. Dogs who bit someone ONCE when defensive or angry are 
going to be, all else being equal, better prospects for a relatively uneventful return to normal: social, 
tolerant, unlikely to bite unless provoked.


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## Guest (May 4, 2013)

SleepyBones said:


> Little wonder when animal rights extremists frequent all these forums telling naive pet owners "reward the good, ignore the bad"


1. I don't know a single dog trainer who is an AR supporter, and most certainly not an AR extremist as most AR extremists don't think we should own dogs as pets period.
You may want to look in to the difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare.

2. I also don't know any credible dog trainer who would tell an owner something as simplistic as "reward the good, ignore the bad." 
I keep hearing this ditty from compulsion trainers talking smack about reward based trainers but I've yet to actually hear a reward based trainer say this. Funny that...
Anyway, the advice is generally to *manage* the dog and the environment so that the dog doesn't have opportunities to self-reinforce. You don't "ignore" a dog who runs off to chase livestock. You put a leash on that dog and don't walk the dog around sheep (management) and teach a recall (training). Not really that complicated.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I don't know a single dog trainer who's an AR supporter, & most certainly not an AR-extremist,
> as [they] don't think we should own dogs as pets, period.
> 
> You may want to look in to the difference between Animal Rights & Animal Welfare.


Definitely! :thumbsup: Spot on - domestic species wouldn't exist without humans, & depend upon us
in a multitude of ways - just as we depend upon them. It's a long partnership, & personally i honor 
the bond among us, whether we're talking about poultry or pets. 


ouesi said:


> I also don't know any credible dog trainer who'd tell an owner something as simplistic as
> "reward the good, ignore the bad."
> I keep hearing this ditty from compulsion trainers talking smack about reward-based trainers
> but I've yet to actually hear a reward-based trainer say this. Funny, that...
> ...


CLICK! :thumbup: Brava! :thumbup1:


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Well we rescued a dog with a number of issues. His reactivity towards everything, other dogs, tractors, cyclists, joggers, horses etc etc was extreme. It put a huge strain on me as I felt it was my responsibility to sort it out. No-one wanted to walk him and we couldnt really enjoy being anywhere outside the home with him. 9 months on and we have made huge leaps forward with this and the difference in our relationship with our dog is amazing.

The other issue with our dog is his behaviour with visitors. He becomes very overexcited and apprehensive about anyone coming into the home and we had a situation early on where he nipped my sons friend. My son was naturally very upset about this and I know he is reluctant to have his friends around, even if the dog is shut away. This one hasnt been so easy to resolve and I will admit that I sometimes arrange to visit other people rather than them coming to us which doesnt really help the dog - its just easier.

It sounds awful but no-one in the family feels completely relaxed if we have a stranger in the house. I have had good advice on how to deal with it from our trainer but I worry about something going wrong and the dog biting someone again.

From my experience if you have a dog with behaviour problems you have to make some adjustments to your life to compensate for it and at the same time try and train your dog to correct their behaviour. Which is not easy!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ouesi said:


> 1. I don't know a single dog trainer who is an AR supporter, and most certainly not an AR extremist as most AR extremists don't think we should own dogs as pets period.
> *You may want to look in to the difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare.*
> 
> 2. I also don't know any credible dog trainer who would tell an owner something as simplistic as "reward the good, ignore the bad."
> ...


Thank you!!!! :thumbup: :thumbsup: Well said!

I tried to rep you but it wouldn't let me. :smile:


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't have a human aggressive dog but I have a same-sex dog aggressive dog.

I think the effect on the family was pure anxiety until we learned to manage him. He'll never be safe around male dogs but he's certainly manageable and an asset to the family.

The only problem is caring for him when we go away. I prefer him to be at home but need a very dog-savvy person (or one who'll do exactly as I tell them) to care for him. He's misleadingly obedient if that makes sense. Because he walks at heel, stops staring at dogs at a word etc it's tempting to believe he's safe. He's NOT safe.

With regard to how severe the problem is.... I got him when he was two with well established behaviour. He will fight any male dog, has caused major injuries and is suspected of killing a border collie. He's a GSDx.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> *ouesi *1. I don't know a single dog trainer who is an AR supporter, and most certainly not an AR extremist as most AR extremists don't think we should own dogs as pets period.
> You may want to look in to the difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare.
> 
> 2. I also don't know any credible dog trainer who would tell an owner something as simplistic as "reward the good, ignore the bad."
> ...


Do you actually remember what the topic of this thread is? if you read the post above this it will at least give you some idea if what its supposed to be about.
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I think the effect on the family was pure anxiety until we learned to manage him. He'll never be safe around male dogs but he's certainly manageable and an asset to the family.


Yes it just bounces around the entire family unit and can easily cause friction cause it's a 'tense' experience to everyone involved, then when your out with the dog the tension is based not just on what your fin but is someone going to let their dog just barge up to yours & all hell breaks loose! so parts of the stress levels are to do with other peoples behaviour who may be complete strangers to the dog.
.


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## Guest (May 5, 2013)

SleepyBones said:


> Do you actually remember what the topic of this thread is? if you read the post above this it will at least give you some idea if what its supposed to be about.
> .


Don't post like a condescending jerk when *you* were the one who brought AR extremists in to the conversation.

What have you contributed to the original topic of the thread anyway? Have you dealt with any behavioral issues? Then share already right?

As to the topic, I don't know how to answer the question. Most of the dogs we have had over the last 20+ years are dogs no one else wants because of their behavioral issues. That's how we get dogs. They're given up, dumped, abandoned, and we take them.

Does it impact the family to take on these "problem" dogs? Well, sure. But just until the behavior gets managed and modified. 
It's really no more stressful than having a new puppy in the house. Puppies sure do impact your life big-time. Your entire schedule is altered around the puppy, there's potty training, and constant monitoring, and middle of the night outings, and socializing... Puppies are a pain in the rear! 

So no, I don't see dogs with behavioral problems as impacting our family any more than a "normal" dog would impact our family. Taking on *any* dog will impact a family. As it should whenever you take on the responsibility of another intelligent, social, sentient creature.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Most of the dogs we have had over the last 20+ years are dogs no one else wants because of their behavioral issues. That's how we get dogs. They're given up, dumped, abandoned, and we take them.
> 
> *1]* Does it impact the family to take on these "problem" dogs? Well, sure. But just until the behavior gets managed and modified.
> 
> ...


All those things are perfectly true & on target with the OP's 1st post, in what was written that post, thanks for taking the time.
.


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## Guest (May 5, 2013)

SleepyBones said:


> All those things are perfectly true & on target with the OP's 1st post, in what was written that post, thanks for taking the time.
> .


I would also ask that you please learn to use the quote function properly and not modify my posts when you quote them.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Not read the thread yet.

My dog was a resource guarder and human aggressive. He smashed plates, destroyed cutlery, stole food etc. etc. I always dealt with his behaviour but it still impacted on my mum who I moved back in with 4 months after brining my dog home. 

They where stressful times but thankfully he has made huge improvements. My mum is not a doggy person in the slightest and won't go near him while he is eating or attempt to remove anything from him. I appreciate this and make sure I'm always there to manage him and expect nothing from her. 

It's hard working with a dog with issues especially when you have a family as it is so important that everyone understands exactly what to do and everyone is on the exact same page which is not easy to achieve. 

I've had my fair share of grillings from family, friends and ex about how soft I was on him because I didn't smack him or shout at him therefor I never punished him for bad behaviour etc. how will he ever know what he is doing wrong etc. etc. I'm happy now they have been proved wrong! But the people you expect to support you the most seem not to and always have a point to make.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Far less than having a troubled teenager.  Or challenging neighbours. 
Nothing in life is perfect. It`s how you cope with it that makes you grow.


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## Guest (May 5, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Far less than having a troubled teenager.  Or challenging neighbours.
> Nothing in life is perfect. It`s how you cope with it that makes you grow.


Yup...

That, and not all of us want the same things from our dogs either.
One person's "problem" behavior is another's desirable traits.

The cliché working collie in a pet home is a nightmare. Put that same dog out working stock and he's the ideal dog.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> *emphasis added -*
> 
> It's hard working with a dog with issues, especially [re] family, as it's so important that everyone
> understands exactly what to do &... is on the exact same page, which is not easy to achieve.
> ...


i agree, getting any consistent behavior / Mgmt is key, & achieving it when there's more than 1 person 
is hair-ripping frustration, all too often. :crazy:

Kudos to U for making great strides with a difficult suite of behaviors - Ur dog is very lucky
to have U, & i hope he deeply appreciates Ur partnership. :thumbup1:


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

SleepyBones said:


> Ignoring a behaviour which starts to recurr (even only once, regardless of species) means the behaviour has been 'positive reinforced', now aint that just a new theory
> .


I had to pick up on this as an example again because I think it is very relevant to a lot of recent posts and threads and specifically to this one (subject being impact of owning a difficult dog- with rehab/management methods being discussed within it).

Skinner and operant conditioning is being mentioned a lot in recent posts/threads.

As defined by Skinner the terms reinforcement and punishment do not have the same good vs bad/pleasant vs unpleasant connotations as they do in modern colloquial English language. The same applies for the terms positive and negative.

He defines all four of the above terms in a more mathematical sense:
Positive equates to administering/adding something
Negative equates to removing something.

The four quadrants are detailed below in the following image.










*However, please note that the author, having designed this as a useful resource for owners obviously hasn't included much of the jargon, which of course is relevant for the purpose of this thread*

The "jargon" I am referring to is the strict Skinnerean principle that all of the four quadrants follow *as a direct consequence of the operant behaviour produced*. 
According to whichever quadrant we are dealing with, the quadrant either serves to increase or decrease the frequency of the behaviour.

Thus, where I have a big problem is the misapplication of Skinner's terms to behaviours such as biting, which according to Skinner himself are not necessarily operant behaviours. 
An exception is in the case of an attention seeking dog who is nipping. This behaviour may well be operantly/voluntary produced to see if it can produce the desired response from the human.

However, when specifically considering aggressive/reactive behaviours that are produced, Skinnerean definitions of reinforcement and punishment should not necessarily be applied, nor would they equate to a correct analysis of the behaviour in question and it's consequences. Why?

Because an operant behaviour, he detailed:


> "is an item of behaviour that is initially spontaneous, rather than a response to a prior stimulus, but whose consequences may reinforce or inhibit recurrence of that behaviour


.

Biting and reactivity in many cases are not spontaneous random behaviours, but responses to a prior stimulus which for whatever reason causes the animal enough distress in order to choose aggression (they display *an existing conditioned emotional response *to the stimuli- this has often been classically conditioned). 
Yes such behaviours meet the criteria of the consequence reinforcing the recurrence of that behaviour (biting is reinforcing, the dogs get distance/space which is what they needed) but they are produced in response to exposure to one specific or a set of stimuli which they encountered (and learnt to produce a conditioned emotional response to) prior.

Dogs often bite or react when presented with very specific triggers (stimuli, antecedents).

Furthermore, operant conditioning deals with the modification of operant (voluntary) behaviour. Many instances of biting will have been classically, rather than operantly conditioned. 
They will have been produced in response to one or a number of antecedents (some may be visual, some may be medical/neurological etc etc). 
Other forms of aggression may be generalized in that stimuli that are presented regularly enough immediately before a feared stimuli that produces classically conditioned aggressive responses, then also cue the that same classically conditioned aggressive response.

Skinners' operant conditioning cannot explain all behaviour. Because not all behaviour is operantly produced or subject to operant conditioning.

Similarly what is not to be encouraged is taking advantage of and misinterpreting Skinner's work in order to justify or promote use of inhumane/unethical methods in dog training/behaviour work. This is particularly important when considering how to work with dogs displaying behavioural problems.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> According to whichever quadrant we are dealing with, the quadrant either serves to increase
> or decrease the frequency of the behaviour.
> 
> Thus, ...I have a big problem [when] Skinner's terms [are misapplied] to behaviours such as biting,
> ...


IMO & IME, this is why *classical* or *counter* conditioning work so well in reactive cases.
:thumbup: 


lemmsy said:


> Skinners' operant conditioning cannot explain all behaviour. Because not all behaviour is operantly
> produced or subject to operant conditioning.
> 
> Similarly what is not to be encouraged is taking advantage of and misinterpreting Skinner's
> work, in order to justify or promote use of inhumane/ unethical methods in dog training/ behaviour work.


CLICK! :thumbsup: Bulls-eye. Rep for U!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> IMO & IME, this is why *classical* or *counter* conditioning work so well


Right.  Like Watson's Little Albert. Poor kid.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> Right.
> Like [classical-conditioning worked so well for] Watson's 'Little Albert'. Poor kid.


eek. :nonod: The classic example of an evil application of Pavlovian conditioning - 
not exactly what i had in mind, :yikes: U deleted "in reactive cases" - it makes 
a difference, hun [which i'm sure U know - ya wee burr, poking small barbs in soft spots]. Naughty!

i was thinking more of changing un-wanted prior associations [B-Mod], or proactively "installing" happy 
associations to a planned exposure - such as horses, overhead noises [powered flight, garage door, ceiling fan, 
___ ], traffic, & other Things to Cope With Successfully,so there's a pre-existing tolerance or even comfort 
in something that could be startling, weird, or scary.

My vision was fixing established problems, or preventing future ones - Not creating problems. :laugh:

Little Albert died young, BTW - & IMO this was not necessarily a sad thing, as his trauma was huge, 
& rapidly generalized more & more. :nonod: Hell's bells, if he'd lived to adulthood, he might have been 
terrified of *white* sheets / bath-towels / snow seen thru a window / hand-lotion / paint / walls...

That he died before puberty is sad in one way, but a blessing in another.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> eek. :nonod: The classic example of an evil application of Pavlovian conditioning -
> not exactly what i had in mind, :yikes: U deleted "in reactive cases" - it makes
> a difference, hun [which i'm sure U know - ya wee burr, poking small barbs in soft spots]. Naughty!
> 
> ...


Right you are. I agree completely. :thumbup:
Sorry my post wasn't at all clear. Case of crossed-purposes.

When I posted, I was actually thinking, from stuff I read during my studies of the counter-conditioning Watson then did with poor Little Albert afterwards. From what I read it was at least in part effective, however his mother I believe withdrew him from the study, so the process wasn't completed. Hence his fears later generalized quite badly and he ended up essentially a very severe generalized form of post-traumatic stress disorder 

Psychological/behaviourism experiments have a lot to answer for don't they? Various mistreatment cases and so on. Just as all of their findings can be used to cause suffering and extreme trauma as in the case of little Albert, they can also be used for good. 
I guess that's what I was thinking really. We've got to use what we learnt from poor Little Albert (and all that he went through) and put it to a good use, that HELPS people, dogs and other animals in a positive way.

Sorry for the misleading post :blush: My bad.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> When I posted, I was actually thinking [from stuff I read during my studies] of the *counter-conditioning
> [that] Watson then did* with poor Little Albert, afterward. From what I read, it was at least in part effective,
> ...


Ah!  i didn't make the leap to counter-conditioning, i see the gap now. 
Gotcha - all is revealed. Thanks for clarifying, hun.

i thought U were being ironic, or thinking solely of long-term persistence, not whether the association
was good [happy], bad [scary or nasty], or any other possible emotion --- just "effective & potent".
[Which it is - but i'm not a value-free science person, i think values are critical.]
JMO...


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