# Breeding - How many times per year??



## xxSaffronxx

Hi All

Please could you tell me how many times a year you breed from one queen? (i.e. how many months break do you give her when the kittens leave before you breed her again?)

Im asking as Im trying to put together a breeding plan and my intention was to give the queens 6 months break once the kittens have left before I breed her again. Just wondered if this was too long or not long enough?

Thanks


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## Siamese Kelly

Not sure with Burmese Saffron-as i know nothing about how they call etc-sorry,but no doubt someone will be able to help on this breed


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## Desertstorm

I am playing it by ear with my Himalayians. One mama had a litter last July. She did not call again until November. I let her have her litter in January and this time when kits were 10 weeks old, she started calling again. I said "no way" and finally she went out of heat. I can only hope she stays out of heat for a few months. It is a toss up which is worse... to let a cat have two to three litters per year or let them stay in heat much of the time without allowing more than one or two litters per year. Which is harder on them?? I have stud pants for my boy and am comtemplating letting him maul her without actually breeding in hopes that she will go into a flase pregnancy. (My vet said it was ok to do this)This happened when my boy was too young to breed but not too young to try It kept her out of heat for 4 months and gave her a good rest.


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## rottiesloveragdolls

if you are a registered breeder or will be, then the gccf rules are, no more than 3 litters in two years can be registered! hope this helps.


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## lizward

rottiesloveragdolls said:


> if you are a registered breeder or will be, then the gccf rules are, no more than 3 litters in two years can be registered! hope this helps.


Really? I've been looking for a rule on this but haven't found it, where is it please? Are there any other rules eg regarding the age of the queen?

Liz


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## Biawhiska

I think it's how long is a piece of string? and wouldn't get too into making plans if i were you. I think it's all see how things go! Your girl may not call for ages, may not get pregnant straight way, may need to get spayed, may not take to motherhood etc.... might be best to wait and see and go with it. depending on mum's condition etc.....


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## Saikou

I aim to have one litter a year with each of my girls, but then it depends on calling patterns. The least time between litters for one girl has been 8/9 mths, but then I am lucky that none of my girls *touch wood* have insane calling patterns. None of them drop loads of weight feeding kittens but I still prefer them to recover completely and have a good rest in between. 

There is one breeder that I am aware of has a queen that had 3 litters in a 8 month period, others had 3 litters in 11 and 13 month periods. That is just wrong


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## Biawhiska

OMG! That is terrible, poor cats


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## Sarnajes

I only plan to have one litter a year.


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## Siamese Kelly

lizward said:


> Really? I've been looking for a rule on this but haven't found it, where is it please? Are there any other rules eg regarding the age of the queen?
> 
> Liz


There is no rule as to the minimum or maximum age of a Queen having kittens. Each breed matures at different rates but with Siamese about twelve months old give or take a couple of months. However each cat is different so there is no definite answer. When your Queen is mature and has a regular calling pattern then this is when the time is right.  Hope this helps.


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## lizward

No, I meant GCCF rules about age of queen etc - there were none when I was breeding before but then neither was there any rule limiting the number of litters that could be registered. I have just looked through the rules and can find none but someone on this thread said there is a rule restricting the number of litters that can be registered from one queen in two years.

Liz


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## Siamese Kelly

lizward said:


> No, I meant GCCF rules about age of queen etc - there were none when I was breeding before but then neither was there any rule limiting the number of litters that could be registered. I have just looked through the rules and can find none but someone on this thread said there is a rule restricting the number of litters that can be registered from one queen in two years.
> 
> Liz


Yes i know-as far as i know the GCCF have no rules as such but do have recommendations-have you been on their site and checked out current recommendations/guidelines for the breed/breeds that you are particularly interested in?


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## Desertstorm

I would love to just have one litter per queen per year but it is so hard on them this constant calling. My Mischa is calling yet again and her kittens were just born in January. I am going to let Angel don his stud pants and fake breed her in hopes it puts her into a false pregnancy. She always loses weight as she is small and this last litter had 6 kittens in it. They tumbled out of the nest and started eating carnation milk and rice baby cereal when only 3 weeks old! I just can't let her have babies again this soon.


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## lizward

Siamese Kelly said:


> Yes i know-as far as i know the GCCF have no rules as such but do have recommendations-have you been on their site and checked out current recommendations/guidelines for the breed/breeds that you are particularly interested in?


Yes I've been all over their site, can't find any breed-specific recommendations at all. I wonder if the rule is that of one of the breed clubs rather than the GCCF?

Liz


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## lizward

Desertstorm said:


> I would love to just have one litter per queen per year but it is so hard on them this constant calling.


Tell me about it. My Asian girl who had the caesarean and lost the litter, less than three weeks ago, came into call and screamed the place only a week later, and now after about five days of quiet she is off AGAIN!!

You could perhaps use Ovarid? I dare not with this particular queen in view of her recent history but I have always used it before with no problems.

Liz


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## rottiesloveragdolls

Hi All, in answer to the question i was told by another breeder that i could only register 3 litters in 2 years with the GCCF,
Just to clear the matter up i have just called the GCCF regarding litters,
And they state that there should be at least 17 weeks in between litters born. hope this helps.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

so if my calculations are right that means 2 litters a year! but i think 17 wks in between litters is not enough bearing in mind the kitts are with mum 13 weeks, so 4 weeks after kits have gone she could be mated again, defo not enough time to get her back into full health?


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## xxSaffronxx

Ok guys as part of the GCCF registration rules you have to be registered with a GCCF reccommended club - in my case Burmese Cat Club.
It is them that state the rules as I have found out today.

A queen cannot have any more than 3 litters over a 2 year period and must have at least 19 weeks in between litters.

Which is what I thought anyway!


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## lizward

Ah it's the Burmese cat club. That sounds more realistic, though bearing in mind what Burmese sound like when they are calling, I wonder if they ought to publish a health and safety warning along with that rule!!

17 weeks between births (which is what your wording says) seems ridiculously short - that means you could do 3 litters a year if your girl carries on through the winter (mine never do), you would be putting the girl to the stud when the kittens were only 8 weeks old! (Not that it would be an issue in practice since I doubt if many of us remove kittens from their mother that young and most won't call whehn they are still feeding kittens) 

Liz


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## xxSaffronxx

lizward said:


> Ah it's the Burmese cat club. That sounds more realistic, though bearing in mind what Burmese sound like when they are calling, I wonder if they ought to publish a health and safety warning along with that rule!!
> 
> 17 weeks between births (which is what your wording says) seems ridiculously short - that means you could do 3 litters a year if your girl carries on through the winter (mine never do), you would be putting the girl to the stud when the kittens were only 8 weeks old! (Not that it would be an issue in practice since I doubt if many of us remove kittens from their mother that young and most won't call whehn they are still feeding kittens)
> 
> Liz


No 19 weeks between litters. I assumed they meant that the week the kittens leave is the first week of the 19 week break period. And then count 18 weeks after that before she can be mated again?

Here is a link to their Member Application Pack
http://www.burmesecatclub.com/pdf/members_app_pack.pdf

And the text under the section im taking about states:

_Breeders Should:
Allow a queen to have no more than three litters in any two-year period (this is inline with GCCF recommendation that queens should have a minimum period of nineteen weeks between litters.)_

How would you interpret this as Im not sure now?????


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## rottiesloveragdolls

I spoke with the GCCF this morning, and they tell me 17 weeks in between the date of births,!! that is not long enough, when you consider kittens are with mum for 13 weeks on average! 
Call them on 01278427575 and ask if you are wanting more information,


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## xxSaffronxx

Yes i agree i dont think thats long enough at all!


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## xxSaffronxx

I have just worked it out. That mean that a queen could potentially have 3 litters a year - thats too many!!!

Think I will stick to the 3 litters over 2 years rule which was my intention anyway


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## rottiesloveragdolls

xxSaffronxx said:


> I have just worked it out. That mean that a queen could potentially have 3 litters a year - thats too many!!!
> 
> Think I will stick to the 3 litters over 2 years rule which was my intention anyway


thats the way i do it as well, at least my girls get a gd rest in between,


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## xxSaffronxx

Ok I just rang the GCCF and as you say its 17 weeks between birth date. They say that it can sometimes cause the queen more harm to be calling for long periods of time and therefore this is why they have set a minimum.
The Burmese Cat Club say only 3 litters over 2 years to allow the queen to recover.
The Burmese Cat Society dont seem to have any restrictions??

The GCCF inform me that their rules do not always coincide with the cat clubs rules.

So it seems that it depends on which club you are a member of & ethics


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## xxSaffronxx

OK

I just spoke to The Burmese Cat Club and they say that 3 litters over 2 years is just a guide and that you would not be breaking the rules if you had 2 litters per year. But that if your queen is calling quite a lot that you can put her on Ovarid which helps tone down the calling. (I have actually heard of Ovarid before)

So I guess other than the 17 week minimum between birth dates from the GCCF then there are no additional rules.
It purely comes down to ethics and how many times the queen calls.

My intention is still to stick to the 3 litters over 2 years, but I wanted to check what happens if the queen calls a lot and needs to be bred twice a year. I needed to be sure that I was not breaking any rules (as everyone seemed to have different information) as I didnt want to put my queens health at risk by not breeding her when she needed to be.

Phew!!


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## rottiesloveragdolls

well im glad we have cleared that one up,!


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## xxSaffronxx

Not easy huh? LOL


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## lizward

xxSaffronxx said:


> OK
> 
> My intention is still to stick to the 3 litters over 2 years, but I wanted to check what happens if the queen calls a lot and needs to be bred twice a year. I needed to be sure that I was not breaking any rules (as everyone seemed to have different information) as I didnt want to put my queens health at risk by not breeding her when she needed to


That's easy, you use Ovarid. Believe me, with Burmese, you'll need to!

Liz


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## xxSaffronxx

lizward said:


> That's easy, you use Ovarid. Believe me, with Burmese, you'll need to!
> 
> Liz


Are the vets usually quite good at letting breeders have a supply?

Someone I know that uses it says she only gives ¼ of tablet for 1 dose.


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## lizward

Yes the vet is usually fine about it - and yes 1/4 tablet per 3 weeks is enough for many cats.

Incidentally if the cat has been mated "accidentally" another use of Ovarid - for which you need a whole one - is to prevent conception taking place.

Liz


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## Guest

3 litters in one yearthat shouldnt be allowed,im suprisedpoor cat!!


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## xxSaffronxx

lizward said:


> Yes the vet is usually fine about it - and yes 1/4 tablet per 3 weeks is enough for many cats.
> 
> Incidentally if the cat has been mated "accidentally" another use of Ovarid - for which you need a whole one - is to prevent conception taking place.
> 
> Liz


Nice tip - thankyou liz!


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## xxSaffronxx

clare7577 said:


> 3 litters in one yearthat shouldnt be allowed,im suprisedpoor cat!!


Yes bad isnt it!


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## Guest

Poor cat would be permenantly preggers or feeding!and would have no (me) time at all.That would be no more than kitten farming!


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## Siamese Kelly

That's easy, you use Ovarid. Believe me, with Burmese, you'll need to!
Yeah becareful Saffron with this stuff-some people swear by it and others have had horrible problems-so research and make your own assumptions Not all vets recommend it and in fact won't use it as the probs are too horrid-imo this stuff is far from safe and personally i would never use it


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## Biawhiska

personally i wouldnt use ovarid


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## xxSaffronxx

Siamese Kelly said:


> That's easy, you use Ovarid. Believe me, with Burmese, you'll need to!
> Yeah becareful Saffron with this stuff-some people swear by it and others have had horrible problems-so research and make your own assumptions Not all vets recommend it and in fact won't use it as the probs are too horrid-imo this stuff is far from safe and personally i would never use it


Yes thanks kelly - a few breeders have told me about Ovarid. I will wait and see what happens. One breeder says she only uses ¼ of a tablet each time. You're right tho, i will do my usual research!  



fluffypurrs said:


> personally i wouldnt use ovarid


Whys that fluffy? Have you had a bad experience with it?


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## Siamese Kelly

It's very contraversal as some people say it's fab but it can knock a girl off permanently,cause bad defects in kitts and a whole load of other not good stuff-their are a few alternatives which are safer that can be used


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## Siamese Kelly

3 litters in one yearthat shouldnt be allowed,im suprisedpoor cat!!
_______________
Sorry but i think it depends on the breed of cat and health etc, If you have a girl who's calling every say 10 days do you knock her off all year round? Some girls come into call earlier and (ours) are very regular, if you wanted to keep her off call then neuter or mate Because though you can safely knock them off for a while you can't do it indefinitely as you'd have a confused and possibly bad tempered girl and so on and so on..


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## Biawhiska

xxSaffronxx said:


> Whys that fluffy? Have you had a bad experience with it?


Not used it just read some bad things. Having said that I'd have to see what situation I was in and think of the options I had, it may well be the last resort.


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## xxSaffronxx

Siamese Kelly said:


> It's very contraversal as some people say it's fab but it can knock a girl off permanently,cause bad defects in kitts and a whole load of other not good stuff-their are a few alternatives which are safer that can be used


Hmm that worries me if Ovarid does that! What are the safer alternatives?


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## xxSaffronxx

Siamese Kelly said:


> 3 litters in one yearthat shouldnt be allowed,im suprisedpoor cat!!
> _______________
> Sorry but i think it depends on the breed of cat and health etc, If you have a girl who's calling every say 10 days do you knock her off all year round? Some girls come into call earlier and (ours) are very regular, if you wanted to keep her off call then neuter or mate Because though you can safely knock them off for a while you can't do it indefinitely as you'd have a confused and possibly bad tempered girl and so on and so on..


Excellent point kelly! You worded it better than me LOL


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## Siamese Kelly

xxSaffronxx said:


> Excellent point kelly! You worded it better than me LOL


Why thankyou-doesn't happen often-must be Wednesday Well we use Platina-a homeopathic remedy and for our girls at least -it works and more importantly we know it's safe, if this doesn't work their are other alternatives-and one which for your girls will work safely and do the task in hand


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## xxSaffronxx

Siamese Kelly said:


> Why thankyou-doesn't happen often-must be Wednesday Well we use Platina-a homeopathic remedy and for our girls at least -it works and more importantly we know it's safe, if this doesn't work their are other alternatives-and one which for your girls will work safely and do the task in hand


Where is Platina available from hun?


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## Saynamore

I've heard that about Ovarid that it can take them of call for absolutely ages. Your cats can have one or two calls before being mated without the risk of pyo, but any longer than that you need to look at an alternative  I would ask too, where are the herbal remedies available from?


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## xxSaffronxx

Saynamore said:


> I've heard that about Ovarid that it can take them of call for absolutely ages. Your cats can have one or two calls before being mated without the risk of pyo, but any longer than that you need to look at an alternative  I would ask too, where are the herbal remedies available from?


Really Chrissy? Thats not good! 

Not sure about the herbal remedies - have asked Kelly. I have googled the herbal stuff she mentioned but cant find it


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## Saikou

If you have a very frequent caller then mating for a few times close together would be the thing to do for the first couple of years of her breeding career only then spay her at a young age. It wouldn't be right to do that long term its just not fair on the cat. The cat in question was 5 yrs old when she had that 3rd litter in the 8 mths. 

This is just my opinion, but I think if you have a queen that you have to mate far too frequently because otherwise she is in continuous call, then she shouldn't be bred from long term, it suggests a hormonal inbalance and those tend to run in lines. Being permanently pregnant or feeding kittens is no life for a cat and its not good for their health, they are just breeding machines. If you argue leaving them to call continuously is detrimental to their health, then so is over breeding them. It also has a knock on affect to any kittens born because Mum is so run down the kittens don't get what they need and they are small, weak with poor immune systems.


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## Siamese Kelly

Saikou said:


> If you have a very frequent caller then mating for a few times close together would be the thing to do for the first couple of years of her breeding career only then spay her at a young age. It wouldn't be right to do that long term its just not fair on the cat. The cat in question was 5 yrs old when she had that 3rd litter in the 8 mths.
> 
> This is just my opinion, but I think if you have a queen that you have to mate far too frequently because otherwise she is in continuous call, then she shouldn't be bred from long term, it suggests a hormonal inbalance and those tend to run in lines. Being permanently pregnant or feeding kittens is no life for a cat and its not good for their health, they are just breeding machines. If you argue leaving them to call continuously is detrimental to their health, then so is over breeding them. It also has a knock on affect to any kittens born because Mum is so run down the kittens don't get what they need and they are small, weak with poor immune systems.


Kim ,i couldn't have put it better myself love-for the herbal stuff look on Ainsworth.co.ukWith Ovarid someone i know of used this to knock their girl off-it worked,but she never came into call again-ever!


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## lizward

Saynamore said:


> I've heard that about Ovarid that it can take them of call for absolutely ages.


The average is four weeks. That said, I have one that has been more than five weeks (wish she'd hurry up!)

Of course the other possibility is a vasectomised tom cat, if you can persuade the vet to do it.


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## Desertstorm

Hi...I might have a suggestion....One of my Himalayian Queens had a litter last July. She did not come into heat again until November. She produced 6 beautiful kittens in January. I sold the last little guy at 10 weeks and she came into call a week later....and again this week. I put Angel's stud pants on him and let him pretend mate. I believe she has gone out of heat! I have my fingers crossed that she does not come back in for awhile. If this works, all one needs is a diapered tomcat.


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## xxSaffronxx

Desertstorm said:


> Hi...I might have a suggestion....One of my Himalayian Queens had a litter last July. She did not come into heat again until November. She produced 6 beautiful kittens in January. I sold the last little guy at 10 weeks and she came into call a week later....and again this week. I put Angel's stud pants on him and let him pretend mate. I believe she has gone out of heat! I have my fingers crossed that she does not come back in for awhile. If this works, all one needs is a diapered tomcat.


LOL - excellent!!


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## Rraa

I prefer to keep it to one litter per year or certainly no more than two in any 18 month period. It is possible that a queen may be ready for another litter after a period of as little as nine or ten months but then, she may need longer the next time round. If she calls at six weeks after her babies are born, and some queens do, I just ignore it, let her call and hope that the next call will be a long time away still. I do also resort to giving a queen homeopathic tables if necessary to balance their hormones. This means there will be a slightly longer period between calls and gives the girls longer to recouperate after weaning etc.

It is also necessary for me, as an employed person, to balance out the times when I have to be at home to be with my girls when they need me. My holiday allowance is limited so of course, my queens get priority. I space out my holidays to coincide with kitten births. 

Kind regards

Rita


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