# How many litters?



## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

As I said in a previous post my oh would love to breed our mice. I'd like to too as watching the whole nature/life in action would be amazing but we'd want to do it fairly! I was thinking two litters each. Is that too many? They're pets first and foremost so we're not doing it to make money so the number of litters is not a problem. How many litters is ok for a mouse to have?


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

2 would be my limit on any small animal but it would also depend on litter sizing if they had a big litter and it was rough on mum i wouldnt breed her at all again. It would depend on mums recoverary


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

Do you mean 2 litters of the same thing/reapeat mating or 2 liters with different fathers?

If it's the former, I have no idea why it would be necessary to do a repeat mating unless things go wrong, as if you are choosing the best stock first time round for the first litter, you should get what you need and you probably won't get anything different or better second time round.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

spoiled_rat said:


> Do you mean 2 litters of the same thing/reapeat mating or 2 liters with different fathers?
> 
> If it's the former, I have no idea why it would be necessary to do a repeat mating unless things go wrong, as if you are choosing the best stock first time round for the first litter, you should get what you need and you probably won't get anything different or better second time round.


Same Dad. The mice come from a breeder and so their lines are known and am considering breeding to continue the lines. I would be keeping a couple of the mice from any litters because it would be hard to let them all go and I have plenty of room for them.

Thanks for the replies!


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## Acid (Aug 8, 2011)

would you have enough cages to house unrelated bucks singlely to continue the lines? and enough tanks incase you cant sell your male pups in time and if they fall out and fight?

or do you mean you are only having two litters from each doe, selling the pups and thats it and those pups would be continuing the line?


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Acid said:


> would you have enough cages to house unrelated bucks singlely to continue the lines? and enough tanks incase you cant sell your male pups in time and if they fall out and fight?
> 
> or do you mean you are only having two litters from each doe, selling the pups and thats it and those pups would be continuing the line?


Yes the pups would be continuing the line. I will keep any that cannot be homed and I'd offer a take back service also where I'd be willing to take back any mouse that was born from my does that can no longer be looked after by their new owners.

The health of my mice is the most important thing throughout here so I appreciate all the advice you can offer.

Thanks again.


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## Acid (Aug 8, 2011)

i think its great youd offer that instead of the attitude of some breeders who take the view of 'its your animal now, its your problem'


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Thank you very much!!! That means so much!!! Most breeders breed just to make money off their animals and dont care about them!


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Most breeders breed just to make money off their animals and dont care about them!


Oh really? I make a loss every year. Explain that, seeing as you are so willing to tar everybody else with the same bad brush?


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

spoiled_rat said:


> Oh really? I make a loss every year. Explain that, seeing as you are so willing to tar everybody else with the same bad brush?


Wow PMT much!? Where in that sentence did I say Spoiled Rat just breeds to make money and doesn't care about their animals!!?? Wtf is wrong with you? Not every breeder gives a **** about their animals.


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

It was your sweeping statement which bothered me. 

It's really very annoying to read implications that most breeders do not care, and are just out to make money, when most of the breeders I know (including myself), DO CARE and DO NOT MAKE MONEY by breeding.

Such sweeping statements like you wrote, can give a very wrong idea to people.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

well that attitude of yours will make people think more bad of you than my sweeping remark!!


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

I am pretty sure I am quite within my rights to defend myself against you lumping me in the same horrid group that you did.

You wrongly included me in your statement about breeders as you did not make any distinction between the good and bad, and now you are complaining because I am defending myself?


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Get off your soap box! You have decided to take offence to something I said that was not directed at you in any way whatsoever. You werent even part of the conversation. I didn't even know you were a breeder for a start. Grow up! Defending yourself from something you decided to take offense to not from something I actually offended you for!


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## swatton42 (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm sure that the comment was in no way directed to you. 

It's true that many animals end up in poor homes or in rescue due to 'out to make money' breeders, but if their were no breeders that kept a reasonable standard and reputation then let's face it there would be no breed standards, registers and clubs around.

Yes the comment could have been phrased differently but I do not feel that you should take it personally.


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## swatton42 (Oct 29, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Get off your soap box! You have decided to take offence to something I said that was not directed at you in any way whatsoever. You werent even part of the conversation. I didn't even know you were a breeder for a start. Grow up! Defending yourself from something you decided to take offense to not from something I actually offended you for!


Not that this has anything to do with the conversation but 'Get off your soap box'? Never heard that before...

If it's soapy surely they'd slide right off anyway?


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

But it was directed at me, simply as you said 'most breeders' which didn't exclude me 

You made a pretty awful sweeping judgement on me and what I do, and somehow me not accepting the label that that someone who has no right, or knowledge to pass judgement on me, has publically stickered me with, annoys you? 

Do you realise how badly your statement could appear to other people reading this who could think is it applicable to me, or others on here?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2011)

swatton42 said:


> Not that this has anything to do with the conversation but 'Get off your soap box'? Never heard that before...
> 
> If it's soapy surely they'd slide right off anyway?


I've heard that saying loads, but I see what you mean about them sliding off hmmmm


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

It is great that you want to breed for health and temprement WelshYorkie, but you are very new to mice. As some one who is considering breeding, have you considered the fact that you don't know all the basics about mice keeping yet but you would need to be able to advise new owners on these basics? It wasn't that long ago that you were saying rotastack were ideal for mice, and it's great that you realise it isn't, but there are so many things you need to know. Have you told both breeders that you are getting your mice from that you intend to breed and asked about any inheritable problems that may arise in babies of your own? What about tumours? As a pet owner that is something that I ask breeders I go to - how many generations do you have that are tumour free, what about other problems, are there any spinal deformities? Would you recognise potential problems when you are so new to mice? Experienced breeders regularly find things pop up that they weren't expecting - such as a baby being born with no stomach - would you recognise these types of things? What if your mum mouse dies in birth leaving a litter of newborns? What will you do about them? Do you know how to hand raise? IN detail? What about if the mum mouse cannibalised her whole litter? Would you be prepared for finding that? It isn't uncommon for mice to eat their first litter. As some one who bred their pet mice, have you also considered that there is a chance you could get all males in every litter? Are you prepared for that worse case scenario? A mouse can have up to 20 babies at a time - if they are all boys and you breed 4 litters (two from each of your females) do you have the space to keep up to 80 male mice in their own separate cages and cages that allow them room to run, play and have toys as well? Male mice do not generally sell as pets - for several reasons including the fact that they smell, they are rarely able to be kept together even if related and it is unbelievably difficult to find a vet who would neuter at a reasonable cost who has experience. I've been quoted between £40 and £120 to get ONE male mouse neutered. So if none of your males find new homes, do you have the space and time for all those cages and cleaning them out? It happens - I bred my 2 girls and ended up with 18 babies, 12 of which were males and are all in separate cages now. And if you care about where your mice end up, how will you cope if you find out some one got bored and let it out in the wild or fed it to a snake or rehomed it to some one who wouldn't look after it? Many people won't go back to the breeder unless the breeder will give them their money back. I have 48 mice just now - 22 males in separate cages. It costs me over £100 a month for bedding and £40 a month for food. I have 20 cages and it takes me 24 hours in a week to just give them a rough clean, a full clean takes me around 48 hours in one week. I also pay on average £200 a month in vet bills because a lot of the ones I have have ongoing health problems that I couldn't forsee and wasn't told about could potentially occur. If you can tell me that you have considered all of these things, looked at them objectively and can honestly say that you are able to afford all of this in the worst case scenario, have the time for up to 80 cages and are prepared for anything that can happen then I'm all for you going ahead and breeding as I do think that you have good reasons for wanting to breed. I don't want to sugar coat it, but there are a lot of things in breeding mice that people don't consider, and if you want to breed for the right reason you need to ensure that you know all the problems that can occur. Especially when you have only just taken in your first mice, rats, hamsters and are intending to set up a rescue. 

And as Spoiled Rat said, almost all breeders will lose money. My vet breeds and spends more on her mice than i do but can only get at most £3 per mouse - IMO I think a lot of the ones that don't lose money will be ones who breed with no scruples, and allow back to back litters for maximum output.


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> I didn't even know you were a breeder for a start


You should probably be a little more observant, seeing as it's right there in my signature in quite large letters.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

spoiled_rat said:


> But it was directed at me, simply as you said 'most breeders' which didn't exclude me
> 
> You made a pretty awful sweeping judgement on me and what I do, and somehow me not accepting the label that that someone who has no right, or knowledge to pass judgement on me, has publically stickered me with, annoys you?
> 
> Do you realise how badly your statement could appear to other people reading this who could think is it applicable to me, or others on here?


Do you realise that people would only think it would be about you is because you've made such a fuss over it!

Carry on taking offense to statements that isn't even directed at you and pretend they are directed at you if that's what floats your boat! Im not going to appologise for offending you when I didnt! You offended yourself by deciding that the statement was about you! Wow life must be fun for you if you go around seeing comments and deciding 'oooh i think i'll take offense to that!'


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

spoiled_rat said:


> You should probably be a little more observant, seeing as it's right there in my signature in quite large letters.


Wow do you want your dummy back?


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

I am not taking offense, just merely correcting your error


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

zany_toon said:


> It is great that you want to breed for health and temprement WelshYorkie, but you are very new to mice. As some one who is considering breeding, have you considered the fact that you don't know all the basics about mice keeping yet but you would need to be able to advise new owners on these basics? It wasn't that long ago that you were saying rotastack were ideal for mice, and it's great that you realise it isn't, but there are so many things you need to know. Have you told both breeders that you are getting your mice from that you intend to breed and asked about any inheritable problems that may arise in babies of your own? What about tumours? As a pet owner that is something that I ask breeders I go to - how many generations do you have that are tumour free, what about other problems, are there any spinal deformities? Would you recognise potential problems when you are so new to mice? Experienced breeders regularly find things pop up that they weren't expecting - such as a baby being born with no stomach - would you recognise these types of things? What if your mum mouse dies in birth leaving a litter of newborns? What will you do about them? Do you know how to hand raise? IN detail? What about if the mum mouse cannibalised her whole litter? Would you be prepared for finding that? It isn't uncommon for mice to eat their first litter. As some one who bred their pet mice, have you also considered that there is a chance you could get all males in every litter? Are you prepared for that worse case scenario? A mouse can have up to 20 babies at a time - if they are all boys and you breed 4 litters (two from each of your females) do you have the space to keep up to 80 male mice in their own separate cages and cages that allow them room to run, play and have toys as well? Male mice do not generally sell as pets - for several reasons including the fact that they smell, they are rarely able to be kept together even if related and it is unbelievably difficult to find a vet who would neuter at a reasonable cost who has experience. I've been quoted between £40 and £120 to get ONE male mouse neutered. So if none of your males find new homes, do you have the space and time for all those cages and cleaning them out? It happens - I bred my 2 girls and ended up with 18 babies, 12 of which were males and are all in separate cages now. And if you care about where your mice end up, how will you cope if you find out some one got bored and let it out in the wild or fed it to a snake or rehomed it to some one who wouldn't look after it? Many people won't go back to the breeder unless the breeder will give them their money back. I have 48 mice just now - 22 males in separate cages. It costs me over £100 a month for bedding and £40 a month for food. I have 20 cages and it takes me 24 hours in a week to just give them a rough clean, a full clean takes me around 48 hours in one week. I also pay on average £200 a month in vet bills because a lot of the ones I have have ongoing health problems that I couldn't forsee and wasn't told about could potentially occur. If you can tell me that you have considered all of these things, looked at them objectively and can honestly say that you are able to afford all of this in the worst case scenario, have the time for up to 80 cages and are prepared for anything that can happen then I'm all for you going ahead and breeding as I do think that you have good reasons for wanting to breed. I don't want to sugar coat it, but there are a lot of things in breeding mice that people don't consider, and if you want to breed for the right reason you need to ensure that you know all the problems that can occur. Especially when you have only just taken in your first mice, rats, hamsters and are intending to set up a rescue.
> 
> And as Spoiled Rat said, almost all breeders will lose money. My vet breeds and spends more on her mice than i do but can only get at most £3 per mouse - IMO I think a lot of the ones that don't lose money will be ones who breed with no scruples, and allow back to back litters for maximum output.


Thanks for the comment! And also as a breeder thanks for not taking offense to the comment I made about absolutely nobody in particular that some people no names mentioned (spoiled rat!) has decided to take offense too.

I realise there is a lot of things I dont know about breeding and I dont intend to breed anytime soon. My little mice are only 4 weeks old anyway. I am in the middle of researching this whole thing so i've not decided anything in particular. It was actually the breeder that suggested I look into possibly breeding to continue the lines.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

spoiled_rat said:


> I am not taking offense, just merely correcting your error


oh but i'm observant enough to have noticed the fact that you said you were offended. I didnt actually make any error!


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Thanks for the comment! And also as a breeder thanks for not taking offense to the comment I made about absolutely nobody in particular that some people no names mentioned (spoiled rat!) has decided to take offense too.
> 
> I realise there is a lot of things I dont know about breeding and I dont intend to breed anytime soon. My little mice are only 4 weeks old anyway. I am in the middle of researching this whole thing so i've not decided anything in particular. It was actually the breeder that suggested I look into possibly breeding to continue the lines.


You are welcome  I would say though that I'm not a breeder, I bred my original mice 2 years ago and vowed never again. I love them but there are too many mice out there in rescues and not being looked after properly for me to want to breed mice again. I only have 7 of my litters left and all the other have been unwanted mice that were going to be snake food, SSPCA mice, neutered mice from my vet, unwanted pets etc. It's great you are doing research, but with your first mice why not just enjoy them as pets and spend time researching possibly breeding for when you get other mice in the future. It will allow you to get your head around things more first. I'm very surprised at any breeder recommending a first time pet mouse owner to breed. Most mice breeders I know of have all had mice for pets as years first so they knew a lot before even starting.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

If we were to breed we were wanting to keep some of the girl babies. We only have two mice together right now. They're in a 2.5 - 3ft long tank and they look so teeny in there. Are two girls ok or is it better to have more so they have more company?


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Hiya, my oh and I have had a good talk about breeding and taking everything into account (thanks to Zany Toon) we've decided against doing it. We'd get into heaps of trouble as I just know I wouldnt be able to give any of the babies away lol and it wouldn't be fair to keep them all as we couldn't possibly have the time and resources to look after them. I would also be really heartbroken if anything happened to any of them. The idea of watching life being made etc is still a lovely thought but in reality it would probably be a lot different to what I'm imagining. 

The final decision came this morning after I spent a lot of time with the little girls and instead of thinking about breeding mice I realised that the mice I was talking about wasn't just mice but Holly and Ivy and actually thinking about Holly and Ivy having babies and the risks that would come with it I realise that I just couldn't do it. If anything were to happen to them I could never forgive myself!

Thanks everyone for the posts regarding this subject!


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I thought you wanted to start a rodent rescue?


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

I'd love to and I have rescued 4 but like others have pointed out it's not a good idea.


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