# I got such a fright when walking my dog today



## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Today I was walking through the park with my dog when I saw something large quietly moving in the bushes to the right of me. A closer look and I saw something that resembled a wolf that was laying in wait and had its eyes fixated on my wee dog. Have you ever felt like your hearts about to stop and you can't breath? yep that was me.

The beast ran out with head low and body close to the ground and on seeing it, my boy just stood stock still, tail between his legs and very submissive in body language. Fortunately this animal was wearing a wide metal muzzle. Once I saw that I felt like I could breath again. 

I said to the owners who had been some way off but were now catching up with him, "I thought it was a wolf", to which they replied, "He's an F1 Timber wolf hybrid". 

This is the first wolfdog I have seen in the UK and I've never seen a Timber wolf hybrid before; they are huge. It was interesting watching other dog walkers reactions too; they all did like me and one woman tried to pick up her black Labrador. 

I wasn't even aware that wolfdogs were legal in the UK. Does anyone here have one in your area? or even own one?


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

F1 hybrids require a DWA license to keep. (as do F2)
I certainly wouldn't think you'd be allowed to walk one in public (especially off lead!!!!), any more than you'd be allowed to walk a tiger - even if muzzled!

I'd hazard a guess at them either lying or being mistaken.
IF you genuinely have an F1 hybrid, you aren't going to want to risk the animal being taken away from you or your license removed by taking such stupid actions.


> _
> *5.2 Standard conditions applied to licences:*
> the animal(s) shall be kept at the licensed premises and shall only be moved in such
> circumstances as are specified in the licence. - defra _


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

from what I've read all wolf hybrids down to f5 (i think)* have to be kept in enclosures and require a license. i may be wrong though.

Maybe a Northern Inuit they are huge and the one i met was very wolf like

*correction F3

Ironically I just found a breeder in Devon where I live who has 'wolf hybrids' (though it doesnt say what content) among other wolfdogs and from the looks of it the hybrids are kept in enclosures though they don't have any info on their website about wolf hybrids or wolfdogs which is a bit silly


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Wow! Scary indeed! I was only talking about hybrid animals the other day with a friend and the implications!


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## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

F1 hybrids are legal to own within the UK but only with a Dangerous wild animal license. When an wolf-dog hybrid is third generation, or further removed from the original wolf content, a licence is not required.

Even with a license they cannot be walked down the street, it's illegal. There are strict rules under the DWA, I suspect this would mean a secure, outside enclosure where the animal would have adequate space to exercise. The owner would require public liability insurance, and a vet inspection in order to have a DWA license and I doubt any vet or council would ever grant a license to anyone wishing to keep one as if it were a domestic dog.

Many people claim to have hybrids but the Dog was more than likely one of the many wolf-lookalike breeds without any actual wolf content such as, Tamaskans, Northern inuits, British Timber dogs, Utonagans, Huskies, Malamutes and there are probably others I cannot remember. They are more common but you do get unscrupulous 'breeders' _claiming_ to be selling 'wolf hybrids' because they fetch a higher price


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> F1 hybrids require a DWA license to keep. (as do F2)
> I certainly wouldn't think you'd be allowed to walk one in public (especially off lead!!!!), any more than you'd be allowed to walk a tiger - even if muzzled!
> 
> I'd hazard a guess at them either lying or being mistaken.
> IF you genuinely have an F1 hybrid, you aren't going to want to risk the animal being taken away from you or your license removed by taking such stupid actions.


I decided to read up on the law regarding these hybrids and a lot of what I read is quite wishy washy.

All hybrid wolves come under "dangerous wild animals" regardless of their parent being pure wolf and all have to go through a rigorous licensing procedure. It talks a lot about safe enclosures and states that the animal can only be walked by its owner and can never go into a boarding kennels. It doesn't say that a hybrid can't be walked off lead and doesn't even say it has to be muzzled. Lots of recommendations but no hard and fast rules.

The man said that he had bought the dog in Czechoslovakia and that on bringing it to the UK it had to undergo DNA testing as well as be licensed under the dangerous animals act.

Living half our lives in the French Alps on the border of the Italian mountains, I've seen a good few wolf hybrids but I've never seen one that looks quite so like the real thing. This animal had yellow eyes, hairy inner ears and black paws and it had the black gland mark on its tail that wolves have.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

missRV said:


> Wow! Scary indeed! I was only talking about hybrid animals the other day with a friend and the implications!


Indeed, there are huge implications and from what I've just read, I don't think they should be kept as pets.

I did read that every so often they inject a little wolf into certain breeds (Nordic) because it gives a healthier dog. Whilst I understand how they sometimes cross the bloodlines of pedigree horses to make them more true to type, I had no idea this went on with certain breeds of dog.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Shikoku said:


> Even with a license they cannot be walked down the street, it's illegal. There are strict rules under the DWA, I suspect this would mean a secure, outside enclosure where the animal would have adequate space to exercise. The owner would require public liability insurance, and a vet inspection in order to have a DWA license and I doubt any vet or council would ever grant a license to anyone wishing to keep one as if it were a domestic dog.
> 
> Many people claim to have hybrids but the Dog was more than likely one of the many wolf-lookalike breeds without any actual wolf content such as, Tamaskans, Northern inuits, British Timber dogs, Utonagans, Huskies, Malamutes and there are probably others I cannot remember. They are more common but you do get unscrupulous 'breeders' _claiming_ to be selling 'wolf hybrids' because they fetch a higher price


This is the site I looked on and I couldn't find anything about not being allowed to walk the dog http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-wolfdogs.pdf

It may well be that this couple were exaggerating but this is the closest thing I've ever seen to something that looks like a full wolf because of its fur pattern, eye colour and markings.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2014)

BlueJay said:


> I'd hazard a guess at them either lying or being mistaken.





Shikoku said:


> Many people claim to have hybrids but the Dog was more than likely one of the many wolf-lookalike breeds without any actual wolf content such as, Tamaskans, Northern inuits, British Timber dogs, Utonagans, Huskies, Malamutes and there are probably others I cannot remember. They are more common but you do get unscrupulous 'breeders' _claiming_ to be selling 'wolf hybrids' because they fetch a higher price


That would be my guess too. A lot of unscrupulous breeders sell wolfie looking dogs claiming they are wolf hybrids but they are plain old canis familiaris, no wolf in them at all.

The fact is, wolves and dogs dont breed as easily as you might think, and wolf hybrids do not tend to do very well at all in domestic environments. That the animal was comfortable approaching humans and being approached by his owners strongly suggests he was a dog, not a wolf, certainly not an F1 hybrid.

We dont have wolves in our area, but we do have coyotes. Our two dogs are very savvy and do a great job keeping the coyotes well deterred. Our neighbors have not been so lucky.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Pffft, I highly doubt the owner is telling the truth.

At worst it could have been a Saarloos Wolfdog type? or a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. They are about as close to the real thing wolfdog wise as you will see in this country.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I know somebody who has just bought a CsV pup and upon looking at the breeder they also breed Saarloos and wolf hybrids, though they dont disclose how much wolf is in them.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

There was someone on a local Facebook Pet Page that is selling 'Low Content Wolf Dogs' just before christmas, no clue if they are what they say they are or not, I have just found the ad and taken a screenshot and done a little editing so hopefully no-one is recognisable


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

The vast majority of people claiming to have wolf hybrids, especially in the UK, at best have wolfalike breeds. Many people are scammed into thinking their dog has wolf content so quite a lot of them do really believe they own a wolf hybrid. The only real way to tell is to phenotype which gets harder the lower content the wolfdog has.

If the dog was truly an F1 hybrid then they would have a mid content wolfdog looking something like these:





































That might help you figure out if it really was or not.


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## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> *This is the site I looked on and I couldn't find anything about not being allowed to walk the dog *http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-wolfdogs.pdf
> 
> It may well be that this couple were exaggerating but this is the closest thing I've ever seen to something that looks like a full wolf because of its fur pattern, eye colour and markings.


As BlueJay has already quoted it states-


> 5.2 Standard conditions applied to licences:
> (Section 1, subsection 6 (a)-(d))
> the animal(s) shall be kept by no other person than the licensee.
> the animal(s) shall be kept at the licensed premises and shall only be moved in such circumstances as are specified in the licence.





> - Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976
> 
> (2)Where an animal is in the possession of any person for the purpose of
> 
> ...


So in my interpretation it means only under the above conditions can the animal be moved and I highly doubt they would allow the animal to be 'walked' 

If they imported the Dog then the animal would have gone through 6 months quarantine because it wouldn't be classed as a domestic Dog and the owners would have had to have their DWA license and Public liability insurance in place before being allowed to bring the pup over. I cannot see someone going through all that effort and cost to then risk everything by walking the animal in public.

Even pure Czechoslovakian wolfdogs and Saarloos Wolfhounds are rather rare in the UK. They aren't a recognised breed so cannot be registered with the UK KC, or the FCI if they are bred in the UK. Even with DNA profiling of the parents and the puppies it's highly unlikely that they would be accepted for registration by the KC if the breeds do become recognised in the future. 
There are a couple of 'breeders' in the UK although more like puppy farmers in my opinion; who more commonly cross-breed Czechoslovakian wolfdogs and Saarloos Wolfhounds with the previously mentioned wolf-lookalike breeds, my guess is mainly for profit with the occasional 'pure' litter. Said 'breeders' really annoy me because they could help get the breed get recognised here in the UK and established correctly rather than being more concerned about lining their pockets.  :cursing:

Honestly, I think either the person was lying or was lied to by the 'breeder'.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> ...A lot of unscrupulous breeders sell wolfie looking dogs claiming they are wolf hybrids but they are plain old
> Canis familiaris, no wolf in them at all.
> 
> The fact is, wolves and dogs dont breed as easily as you might think, and wolf hybrids do not tend to do very well
> ...


Wolf-hybrids are a heckuva lot rarer in the UK, fortunately, than they are in the USA. :nonod:

About once or twice yearly, during the 10-plus years i lived in VA, i'd get a frantic phone-call or urgent e-mail
from a hybrid-owner, who no longer wanted their little darling [now not so little], & could i help them find a new
home for their unwanted hybrid?...  oh, yeah, sure, no problem! - EVERYbody wants a hybrid, right?...

In one case, the animal was a 5-YO intact male who'd been living outside for the previous 3-plus years;
when he was between 15 & 18-MO, he decided he didn't want to stay in the house, anymore, so the woman
let him stay outside, resting on the porch in more-clement weather & bunking in the barn for ugly weather.
She had 4-acres, securely fenced 8-ft high & the fencing was buried 2-ft in the ground [a total of 10-ft
of heavy-gauge wove wire]. She had cat-proof fence topping it, too, to keep OUTSIDE animals, out.

She was selling her suburban home, with its freestanding barn & garage plus the 4-bedroom house,
& moving to a condo; she _"didn't think he'd be happy there"_ - hmy: & needed to find [a] new owner.

I wished her good luck, but DID advise her to neuter him before rehoming him - which she didn't. :cursing:
He went to a backwoods jerk with dreams of moolah, who went on to breed him - of course! - what else do
ya do with an animal U can't personally touch [the woman could handle him, the 'adopter' couldn't], who lives
in a concrete-floored pen with an igloo kennel? :incazzato:

Another was a Harley-rider with massive arms & tattoos in a denim vest that was once a jacket - he whacked
the sleeves off, apparently with a dull knife on a rainy night in the dark; he was in a hurry, cr*p job.
HE had a 2-YO intact male, & was getting married; his bride-to-be didn't want to live with an F1 hybrid, & i can't
say i blamed her; he was skittish, even with the man who'd bottle-fed him from 21-days age.

They were all sad cases, & every rescue & sanctuary that deals with hybrids in the USA that's ETHICAL has
a waiting list for entry; they're stuffed. Yet unscrupulous arsewipes still churn out litters of F1, F2, & F3 pups,
who don't *belong* in human homes, aren't happy on leash in public, & aren't DOGS. They aren't tolerant,
they aren't forgiving, they aren't well-accustomed to the sounds, sights, & events that dogs accept easily.

It's a bl**dy sin, & i wish to God our federal-guvmint would simply ban cross-breeding dogs & wolves;
it does nothing to improve either species, & creates huge logistical problems, many cruelty & neglect cases,
& way-too many BITES.

I did the math myself, a couple years back, using CDC data on dog-bites that required medical treatment.
*A hybrid *[of whatever fraction wolf] *is 11 times as likely to bite U than a dog of ANY breed or mix,
compared to dogs who DID bite at least one person seriously.*

Also, depending upon what region of the USA we look at, *hybrids only make up 1 to 2% of the entire 'dog'
population - yet they comprise over TEN PERCENT of all fatal "dog"-attacks.*

Children are at particular risk, as always with dog-bites of any kind, but adults die, too; one woman
had kept & bred hybrids for 35-years - she was found mauled to death in their pen, 3-days afterward,
by a relative.

A buddy of mine & fellow-trainer is a keeper at the VA Zoo; she had a young woman with a female hybrid pup
in her group-class, one year. The pup was doing OK, not great but not bad, but the woman owner was *afraid*
of her - for no particularly good reason; this was a shy, very cringing specimen who didn't say boo.
She would lick appeasingly when approached, or lie belly-down & roll over with her tail tucked. :nonod:

At the end of 6-weeks of classes, she asked the girl [early-20s but looked like a 16-YO] what she was going
to do with the animal?... The owner replied, _'We're gonna put her in the pen with Honcho, & let them breed.'_
HONCHO, their then-3-YO male, had lived untouched by human hands for over 2 years in a sealed pen;
they *threw his food over the fence*. He was very nasty, indeed, & would stand on his hind feet to
stare U in the eye & rumble warningly when U were 15-ft away, then roar & snarl if U got any closer.

I'm sure her little nervous-Nellie lived a delightful life with her 120#, 30-inch tall "mate". :cryin:

Sometimes ppl just disgust me. :crying:
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Indeed, there are huge implications & from what I've just read, *I don't think they should be kept as pets*.


from Ur lips to the Goddess' ear, i hope. :yesnod:


ThelifeofPi said:


> I did read that every so often they *inject a little wolf into certain Nordic breeds because it gives a healthier dog.*
> Whilst I understand... they sometimes cross the bloodlines of pedigree horses to make them more true to type,
> I had no idea this went on with certain breeds of dog.


That's mostly hogwash, for the very-good reason that the F1s, F2s, & several more generations are a real
pain-in-the-a$$ as "dogs", cuz they ain't one.

If U want good sled-dogs, U want them to go along, get along, & be biddable; U want team-workers, they must
be handleable [injuries, harnessing, muscle strains, paw-booties, etc] - hybrids are NONE of those things.

Old-fashioned Aleuts & other native tribespeople used to occasionally tie a bitch in heat out for wolves
to breed her, but they culled the bejesus out of the resulting pups, THEIR pups, & all succeeding generations;
eating pups who didn't look like good, biddable, healthy, handleable prospects was common, they didn't neuter
males they didn't like, either; just hit 'em in the head with an ax, or stuck 'em with a knife. Alaskan Huskies
are a very motley crew, genetically; but the native folks who still use sled-dogs don't bother getting wolf in
their gene-pool, it only screws working ability up.

BTW no Nordic breeder would put their *BEST* bitch out for a wolf to mount, as there are good odds that
she'd be killed or even eaten, even tho she was in standing heat; wolves just aren't tolerant of other canids
in "their" territory, & without a human to protect her, even an estrous bitch, especially chained, is just another
helpless chew-toy.

The first thing the wolves did when reintroduced to Yellowstone was start killing coyote. :huh: 'Distant cousin'
apparently isn't any reason to tolerate song-dogs - :nonod: even if they were there FIRST.

Claiming that So-&-So breed "has wolf in it" is mostly just sex-appeal salesmanship.
Even in Nordics, co-operation is important, & wolves - or hybrids - just aren't that co-operative. 
.
.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Worth pointing out as op already as also that they are not in UK
They are in French Alps bordering Italian Mountains. 
Which would make some difference.

apologies, all wrong ignore me


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> ...
> The man said that he'd bought the [supposed hybrid] in Czechoslovakia & that on bringing it *to the UK*
> [the hybrid] had to undergo DNA testing, as well as be licensed under the Dangerous Animals Act.
> 
> ...


Apparently this event was in the UK - not the French-Alps part of the year, evidently.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Apparently this event was in the UK - not the French-Alps part of the year, evidently.


ah yes apologies


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

The GSD/Mal cross at the yard looks very wolflike currently. I honestly would be scared if I didn't know what a soppy girl she is! She approaches all who come in and if you don't know she's adorable, you'd be backing away quickly! I really doubt the dog was an F1 cross.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Yep, that's what I thought too but when I read this 
http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-wolfdogs.pdf I understand that its fairly easy and somewhat common in other countries to breed a pure wolf with a dog and its certainly happening in the UK. Yes, there are breeders selling dogs that look like wolves but there are also breeders selling half wolf half dog pups.

Perhaps though, Defra have got it all wrong?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

What a cruel thing to do. Breed wild animal "hybrids", then keep them in captivity, in "enclosures" all their lives. What is the point? Cripes, I just hate this breeding business. Cruel, inhumane. Disgusting.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The USA is way-behind other more intelligent, forward-thinking developed countries in passing legislation to ban ownership of
dangerous wildlife as 'pets'; TEXAS, the home of right-to-carry & other dubious 'freedoms', is also home to more
"mutt tigers" as backyard pets than there are WILD tigers in all of India - which is a stinkin' shame & a crime.

Unless it's changed since i moved, VA had no state laws re hybrids, up to & including 50 / 50 crossbreeds,
so hybrids were not covert, & while not common, weren't vanishingly *rare*, either. :nonod:

I used to attend as many dog-events as possible, if i could get the time off - & Bark-In-The-Park at Va Beach
was a massive event, with over 150 booths, a 'sample' agility course for pet-owners to try out, disc-dog per-
formances by pros, etc, etc; food stands, a radio-station broadcasting live, a DJ to provide music, yadda-yadda.
About a thousand spectators, maybe 1500, between 1 in 4 or maybe 1 adult in 3 with a dog on leash - of course,
lots of kids, who weren't to be relied on to handle a dog in such a melee.

I was describing the various breeds passing by to an potential adopter in a rescue booth, when a hybrid came
slinking along, 3-ft behind the owner's heels, head, ears & tail down, legs half-folded, tail-tip tucked; the [male!]
owner, when i said, "oh, poor thing! - that's a *wolf hybrid..."* took immediate umbrage, & said, "She's a
WOLF-DOG, not a 'hybrid', hybrids are mules!"... [oh, yeah?... funny, hybrid corn is 100% corn, & not sterile -
hybrid cattle, hybrid squash, hybrid roses... - Ignorant twit.]

I asked the owner point-blank if he was going to stand there on his hind legs & tell me that animal was "happy"
to be surrounded by strangers, noise, movement, & unknown dogs, AND on leash. He didn't bother answering,
just glared at me & dragged his cringing 'pet' along behind him, away from his critics. :lol:

I felt so sorry for that animal - but i wouldn't have taken her home for her own weight in 22kt gold. :nonod:
She didn't "belong" anywhere - couldn't be a comfortable pet, was mizrable being hauled thru the happy crowd,
was terrified of any dog approaching her - just pathetic.

Many of the states in the Northeast that are 'developed' ban or regulate hybrids pretty strictly - west of the
Mississippi, it's mostly a known but carefully ignored problem, without much regulation, outside of towns & cities.
In rural western areas, it's 'anything goes' re hybrids or even wolves in private hands. After all, if i can sell
a 25% or 16% wolf-hybrid as a 50 / 50, i can also claim that a wolf is a 50 / 50 hybrid. :nonod: there's no way to
make a clear determination, one way or the other - behavior is pretty plastic, phenotype is variable.

I wish we had Federal laws to ban keeping wildlife, especially dangerous wildlife, as pets - but all the states are
so dam* paranoid about losing their right to be self-determining, most Federal legislators wouldn't touch
that subject with a barge-pole, let alone sponsor a bill.

The biggest visible MARKER for me are the extremely-straight legs with heavier bone, longer length below
the body, & BIG feet when taken in proportion to the body & limb size. Wolves have 'snowshoes', not dainty
dog-feet; big honkin' feet with very-upright knuckles.

Not all hybrids have hair inside their pinnae, either. I've seen a good number of 50 / 50 hybrids with hair-free
interior pinnae; the caudal chevron is USUALLY well-defined on hybrids, unless they've very-pale coats.
.
.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sounds like a frightening encounter no matter the breed . Fascinating reading many of the posts in this thread though - I know very little indeed about the subject.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Some people in our area have these ..

Czechoslovakian Wolfdog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oscar saw the yellow eyes once and just barked and did a kind of howling scream that made my hair stand on end..

Most other dogs in the area either avoid them or react by cowering and barking/snarling.

The dogs themselves are calm and non aggressive but they are never off lead.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I said to the owners who had been some way off but were now catching up with him, "I thought it was a wolf", to which they replied, "He's an F1 Timber wolf hybrid".


I'm not sure why people want to claim ownership of such a breed cross (I tend to think they must be compensating for something in their lives ) when in actuality even if it were true (which invariably it isn't) it isn't something to be proud of.

Why would I want to boast that i kept as a pet an animal that was most probably confused and startled by the level of constraint and captivity that it had to live under let alone feel proud that the animal clearly (through no fault of it's own) brought a level of fear to other dogs and dog owners. What would such an owner be trying to prove...his ability to handle a wolf? Give me strength.

What an unnerving experience though.

J


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dorrit said:


> Some people in our area have these ..
> 
> Czechoslovakian Wolfdog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


We have them round here too. I know one, he certainly does not have yellow eyes or scare other dogs - apart from the few he has put in the vets  He is off lead a lot.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Yep, that's what I thought too but when I read this
> http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-wolfdogs.pdf I understand that its fairly easy and somewhat common in other countries to breed a pure wolf with a dog and its certainly happening in the UK. *Yes, there are breeders selling dogs that look like wolves but there are also breeders selling half wolf half dog pups. *
> 
> Perhaps though, Defra have got it all wrong?


Breeders may claim to be breeding true wolf hybrids for sale in the UK, but I find that extremely hard to believe...Wolf lookalikes, you bet, but actual hybrids? Nup, not buying it :nonod:


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm afraid if they'd told me they had a DWA licence for it I'd tell them that I, first of all didn't believe them, and secondly would phone the police immediately. Walking a wolf hybrid comes under the same laws as if you were walking a lion/gorilla/saltwater croc/king cobra/elephant in public. 

If a wolf escapes its enclosure in a zoo, the zoo goes into lockdown until the animal is dealt with, and they will shoot to kill, even if the animal has been captive bred. 

Claiming to be walking a "dangerous wild animal" should be dealt with seriously, even if to knock some sense into the idiots who have a wolfdog type thinking it's an f1 hybrid.

I did quite a lot about this at uni, and although haven't refreshed my memory on it recently, the DWA Act hasn't changed that much and people keeping species falling under it should be strictly regulated (as they are generally in this country).

I've no doubt their DOG looks very wolf like, but seeing how different hybrids (and wolves) are to the domestic dog in behaviour, I'd very much doubt that this was a hybrid, just a wolfy dog.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Quite possibly a Czechoslovakian wolf dog. The breeder of my whippets has one but she is in Ireland but I'm sure he came from a breeder in Wales. I have never met him but have seen photos and he is huge as big if not bigger than her greyhounds.

They are classed as a dog in some countries I know she doesn't show Juno but they do show them in southern Ireland and I'm not sure if they do in Europe.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I would bet it was a Wolf look-a-like breed too. As others have said, there are unscrupulous breeders about though that do advertise dogs as 'wolf hybrids' etc.

I know someone elsewhere though who owns Wolf hybrids...and I can't quite remember whether they was purebred Wolves! They live in the US and I remember it being quite a controversial debate when they announced their plans to actually purchase a purpose bred Wolf pup.....

This is him...










Also, I remember a beautiful Wolfy looking dog for rehoming, and on looking she is still available by the looks of it!










She's a GSD x Inuit, but the rescue have 'jokingly' described her as a Canadian Timber Wolf look-a-likey.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

British timberdog is the name given to the northern inuit type dogs that are bred here that are all dog gsd/northern type mixes. The czech vlack or however you spell it has wolf in it but decades back and are considered domestic dogs if a bit more challenging than usual.

It is possible to own a hybrid in the UK but if you've gone through the hassle to get a licence and the proper enclosure and everything, it's unlikely you'd be stupid enough to walk it. Of course it's probably possible to get just about anything on the list without one too.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

I understand the other wolves maybe different to each other, but many wolves look very different to what we think wolves look like.

We are use to the fake wolves we see on tv programmes and in movies. Large built strong wolfy looking Dogs. Most wolves are far more gangly on silts looking things.

I'd therefore be more worried if you didn't think it looked like a wolf, be more likelihood it was related to one lol.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dorrit said:


> Some people in our area have Czech Wolfdogs...
> 
> Oscar saw the *yellow eyes*, once, & just... did a kind of howling scream that made my hair stand on end.
> Most other dogs in the area either avoid them or react by cowering and barking/ snarling.
> ...


There are plenty of *Yellow-eyed dog breeds*, too, & dogs don't seem much bothered by them.

My former-boss had a very-sweet choc Lab bitch that he neglected shamefully, & that self-colored
nose & her yellow eyes were the 2 physical traits i really didn't like, in her. 

Brittanies, Viszla, & other red-&-white or solid-red, self-colored or pied dogs can all have yellow eyes -
or hazel, green, or light-brown. Dogs don't seem to notice, much. Ppl do - not dogs, IME.
.
.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

We walk our dogs in woodland where the wolf conservation trust take the wolves for walks sometimes. I pull Polo right away from the track into the undergrowth just in case he decides to kick up!

Impressive animals.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> There are plenty of *Yellow-eyed dog breeds*, too, & dogs don't seem much bothered by them.
> 
> My former-boss had a very-sweet choc Lab bitch that he neglected shamefully, & that *self-colored
> nose & her yellow eyes were the 2 physical traits i really didn't like*, in her.
> ...


Bates is deeply offended!










Granted, hes not really a lab... Or a wolf. Maybe....


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

He sounds absolutely stunning! in the wild dogs and wolfs just don't get on so I can see why he was stalking dogs in the park. 

Makes me think of the muskingum county farm tragedy. I hope the DWA licensing of these animals is taken seriously and they check the enclosures safe and large enough for the breed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Bates is deeply offended!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, Bates. 
Urs aren't really yellow, more a light brown or yellow-brown - hers were almost cats-eye yellow,
& i've seen Brittanies, etc, with the same. But truth to tell, i do prefer dark eyes in dogs - blue is OK,
it doesn't really appeal to me but it's alright, but i like dark-eyed dogs, given my druthers.

Hope that doesn't upset U too much - obviously, other ppl find light eyes gorgeous, & that's good!
Variety is an excellent thing.

BTW, how'd ya lose that left lower-canine? :huh:
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emzybabe said:


> ...
> 
> Makes me think of the *Muskingum County farm tragedy*.
> I hope the DWA licensing of these animals is taken seriously, & they check the enclosures are safe & large
> enough for the breed.


Never heard of that, on this side of the pond - hybrid attack?
Escapees killed livestock? Human mauling? ___ ?


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Never heard of that, on this side of the pond - hybrid attack?
> Escapees killed livestock? Human mauling? ___ ?


The private zoo in Ohio where the guy released all the animals and killed himself. Most were shot by the police which is understandable as they couldn't risk top predators wandering through residential areas.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> BTW, how'd ya lose that left lower-canine? :huh:
> .
> .


That would be Mr. Wolf-wannabe chasing a horse who had good aim with a shoed hoof. Or poor aim as the dingbat survived the hit. Broke the tooth right off at the base, later had to dig the root out surgically. No, it didnt cure his chasing either - part of the reason why he ended up with us. He doesnt respond to pain or fear based consequences


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> That would be Mr. Wolf-wannabe chasing a horse who had good aim with a shod hoof. Or poor aim -
> as the dingbat survived the hit.


ow, ow, ow! ... :nonod:


ouesi said:


> Broke the tooth right off at the base, later had to dig the root out surgically. No, it didnt cure his chasing either -
> part of the reason why he ended up with us. He doesnt respond to pain or fear based consequences.


nah, he's not stubborn.  He's just a slow learner.  Fast runner - slow learner.

Do they go together? - or is it my imagination?
.
.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> ow, ow, ow! ... :nonod:
> 
> nah, he's not stubborn.  He's just a slow learner.  Fast runner - slow learner.
> 
> ...


Oh no... hes a very fast learner. He learned to run and duck at the same time.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

The Wolfie one at the yard today. She was full of affection, being in season, lots of howling, ears back and demanding attention.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> The Wolfie one at the [horse] yard today.[trans. for for USA readers: 'livery stable' AKA 'boarding stable'
> 
> She was full of affection, *as she's in season -*
> lots of howling, ears back [appeasingly], & demanding attention.


Lemme guess - this was just before she picked up that right-hind paw, dug furiously at her right-shoulder,
& got up to shake-off & come over to demand petting?... :ihih: Did i get it right? 

BTW, given that she's a mix [i'd just take her for a Malemute-X, myself], sweet tho she is, has it occurred
to her owners / the stable-operators?, presumably - that it's be a helluva good idea to *spay* her?

Sweet & affectionate & what-not i'm sure she is, but truth to tell, i doubt they'd want 6 or 8 or 10 of her. :huh:

My 1st-dog, the dearly-beloved Wolf, was one of a litter of *14 pups* born to his Keeshound dam, & only
he & his sister arrived in our farm driveway, DROPPED OFF by the dam's multimillionaire owner. :thumbdown:
The others were scattered over the county like so many bits of trash, :mad5: dropped out of his car.
She was bred by a visitor's GSD in her fenced I/O kennel - a 6-ft cyclone fence didn't deter him.

Probly like Ur stable-owners, he didn't think spaying her was 'necessary', as he lived out in the country... 
Think again, buddy. 
.
.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

We live half of our lives in the southern French Alps and I have been on two "wild wolf expeditions" during the snow season. I know how to track wolves in the snow and I'm lucky enough to have had a wild wolf look me square in the eyes. They are beautiful creatures but as far as I'm concerned, should be left in the wild. The mountain villages in France often get wolf/dogs wandering around. Some are shot because they become a problem and others become village dogs, like one particular beast we got to know and like in a remote village called Vallouise. 

I'm not going to presume the owner of this wolfdog wasn't having us on and I'm not going to presume that this wasn't indeed a half bred wolf for the simple reason that its very possible to purchase one of these poor beasts. I just hope they never become popular over here because when you read about the huge problem owners are faced with when this animal reaches maturity, most would end up being destroyed when owners can no longer cope. 

Again I've searched on all appropriate sites regarding the licensing of hybrid wolves and can find nothing that says they can't be walked. Has anyone got a link saying otherwise ? Under the dangerous dogs act they do have to wear muzzles but it doesn't say muzzled dangerous dogs can't be allowed off the leash.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

They're all part wolf. It's just a matter of the F number.

"In 1997, a study determined that domestic dogs could have originated as much as 135,000 years ago."

Assuming an average litter production age of 3 that would make Dief an F44998.666666667.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> We live half of our lives in the southern French Alps and I have been on two "wild wolf expeditions" during the snow season. I know how to track wolves in the snow and I'm lucky enough to have had a wild wolf look me square in the eyes. They are beautiful creatures but as far as I'm concerned, should be left in the wild. The mountain villages in France often get wolf/dogs wandering around. Some are shot because they become a problem and others become village dogs, like one particular beast we got to know and like in a remote village called Vallouise.
> 
> I'm not going to presume the owner of this wolfdog wasn't having us on and I'm not going to presume that this wasn't indeed a half bred wolf for the simple reason that its very possible to purchase one of these poor beasts. I just hope they never become popular over here because when you read about the huge problem owners are faced with when this animal reaches maturity, most would end up being destroyed when owners can no longer cope.
> 
> Again I've searched on all appropriate sites regarding the licensing of hybrid wolves and can find nothing that says they can't be walked. Has anyone got a link saying otherwise ? Under the dangerous dogs act they do have to wear muzzles but it doesn't say muzzled dangerous dogs can't be allowed off the leash.


Less than third generation wolf crosses are not counted as dogs so do not come under the dangerous dogs act, they have to be registered as wild animals in just the same way as a lion or tiger would be. As such they have to be kept in certain conditions and only allowed to be moved for certain reasons - of which walking is not one. So no, they cannot be walked at all.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Lemme guess - this was just before she picked up that right-hind paw, dug furiously at her right-shoulder,
> & got up to shake-off & come over to demand petting?... :ihih: Did i get it right?
> 
> BTW, given that she's a mix [i'd just take her for a Malemute-X, myself], sweet tho she is, has it occurred
> ...


She was too fat last time to be operated on, the vet said. Then they were going to do it but now she's in season again. Believe me, we have told them over and over again about this, Terry. They don't want puppíes. She's Mal/GSD.

Do you have a picture of the Keeshond-that was my first dog.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Again I've searched on all appropriate sites regarding the licensing of hybrid wolves and can find nothing that says they can't be walked. Has anyone got a link saying otherwise ? *Under the dangerous dogs act they do have to wear muzzles but it doesn't say muzzled dangerous dogs can't be allowed off the leash.*


Actually, it does...



> Index of Exempted Dogs (IED)
> 
> If your dog is banned but the court thinks its not a danger to the public, it may put it on the IED and let you keep it.
> 
> ...


As already stated, F1 hybrids are considered WILD ANIMALS. They come under the DWA act, so the DDA is irrelevant really.
Once again ;



> the animal shall not be moved from those premises or shall only be moved from them in such circumstances as are specified in the licence


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

What an interesting and informative discussion!

I don't have anything really to add, as I don't know much about the subject.

I do love wolves and other wild canids and find their behaviour interesting.

BUT they are either dogs nor pets and should be left to live their lives in the wild.

On a side note: domestic dogs are not descended from any of the wolves roaming the world today. They descended from a common ancestor.

Just to be a bit of a pedant.


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## Dexiver (Jan 1, 2015)

Apollo2012 said:


> from what I've read all wolf hybrids down to f5 (i think)* have to be kept in enclosures and require a license. i may be wrong though.
> 
> Maybe a Northern Inuit they are huge and the one i met was very wolf like
> 
> ...


Funny you say that as I'm usually asked if my Northern Inuit is a Wolf Hybrid. He is a fairly large Northern Inuit at 60kg and he's taller than most also but this is usually a question that I laugh off to be honest.

I really can't see an F1 Wolf Hybrid staying by the owner off lead. Wouldn't it just run away and do as it pleases?

However, I'm glad that the situation was under control


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> ...
> On a side note:
> domestic dogs are not descended from any of the wolves roaming the world today.
> [Wolves & dogs] descended from a common ancestor.
> ...


_(sobbing gratefully...)_ _"thank U, [swak], thank U, [swak] thank U... [swak]
i kiss Ur feet, i abase myself, i grovel worshipfully. :001_tt1: My hero!"_
.
.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2015)

Old Shep said:


> What an interesting and informative discussion!
> 
> I don't have anything really to add, as I don't know much about the subject.
> 
> ...


Correct. In my head I think of dogs and wolves like humans and chimps. Humans did not evolve from chimps, but rather humans and chimps share a common (now extinct) ancestor. 
In the same way, dogs did not evolve from wolves. But the two species share a common ancestor.

Genomes of modern dogs and wolves provide new insights on domestication - The University of Chicago Medicine


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Correct. In my head I think of dogs and wolves like humans and chimps. Humans did not evolve from chimps, but rather humans and chimps share a common (now extinct) ancestor.
> In the same way, dogs did not evolve from wolves. But the two species share a common ancestor.
> 
> Genomes of modern dogs and wolves provide new insights on domestication - The University of Chicago Medicine


That's an excellent way to think of it.

I think of more people knew and understood this, the fascination with modern wolves may not be quite so prevalent amoungst the "hard men". After all, thy don't try to breed African Painted Dogs with domestic dogs. :biggrin:

Though I think APDs are a superb species. Truly awesome. I saw them for the first time last summer* and was astounded at their size and an aura of power -with a bit of menace- they exuded.

*at Edinburgh zoo. They have a superb enclosure which you view from the same level as them. The zoo is also involved in conserving em in weir natural environment.

Sorry! Now seriously off topic!


----------



## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Less than third generation wolf crosses are not counted as dogs so do not come under the dangerous dogs act, they have to be registered as wild animals in just the same way as a lion or tiger would be. As such they have to be kept in certain conditions and only allowed to be moved for certain reasons - of which walking is not one. So no, they cannot be walked at all.


Yes, they come under the "dangerous wild animals" category. No matter how thoroughly you read DEFRA information on the licensing and husbandry of an F1 wolf hybrid, nothing says you can't walk the animal; though it does specifically say that this animal can not be walked by a professional dog walker. On other dangerous wild animals it specifically says that the animal can only be removed from its compound by specific licensed authorities but this hasn't been included in the F1 wolf hybrid either. If this is misleading, where is this information to be found?


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> Actually, it does...
> 
> As already stated, F1 hybrids are considered WILD ANIMALS. They come under the DWA act, so the DDA is irrelevant really.
> Once again ;


Wild animals, not dogs and certainly not banned. The link didn't include F1 hybrids.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

This entire document is incredibly sad. Its tragic to think that people promote the breeding of such an animal and own it as some sort of status symbol. 
The Tragedy of Wolf Dogs

For years I struggled with what to call wolfdog hybrids. Should I call them wolves? Dogs? Wolfdogs doesnt flow off the tongue, it is awkward to say. And yet, it is thus the perfect name, because they are not wolves, they are not dogs, and they are trapped in the awkwardness of being neither. They cant live in the wild, and many of them cant live with us in our homes, and so they are trapped in a never-never land of never being comfortable in their surroundings.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> She was too fat [for surgery], the vet said. Then [she lost wt, &] they were going to do it - but now,
> she's in season again. Believe me, we've told them over and over again about this, Terry. They don't want pups.
> She's Mal/GSD.


Good DoG, i hope they get her spayed before she gets preg! ... or WHEN she gets bred, i hope they use
a mismate jab, or an emergency-spay - even a false-pregnancy after an emergency-spay in the 1st
trimester would be preferable to another unplanned litter. :nonod:


cinnamontoast said:


> Do you have a picture of the Keeshond - that was my first dog.


i'm sorry, i don't. I don't even have a photo of her son, my 1st dog. :crying:
His mum was a standard pepper-&-salt Keeshound, light grey with black tipping to mark her - spectacles,
shoulder hackling, faint chest-V, caudal chevron. I never saw his GSD dad, & don't know if he was saddled,
blanketed, had grizzle or none, sabled... no idea. :nonod:

My boy was light fawn, with feathered legs, a thick mane, plume ring-tail, belly hair, & petticoats.
He very-much resembled a Eurasier, with grey & black tipping & markings, including chest-V, shoulder strip,
grizzling, caudal-chevron, spectacles, & some grey & black tipping; he weighed 90#, was compact [unlike
a GSD], with an almost square body-outline if U ignored his head.

His sister went to the local shelter, & was adopted within 3-days; i phoned to check. She looked NOTHING like him,
being buff in color with a short fuzzy coat like a pale-blond Golden pup, & a small white strip on her chest - i only
ever saw 2 of his other 12 siblings, both ringers [at a distance] for my dog; the first time was a heart-stopper,
as my mum's friend in the village phoned to say that Wolf had been hit by a car, & was dead in front of her house.
[He was about 3-YO at the time.]

I was stunned, & flew out the door - only to see Wolf on the porch, abruptly awakened from a nap, looking at
me befuddled, wondering what the H*** was wrong. I went back to the phone, called her [on our party-line],
& told her Wolf was here - but i'd be right down to see the dead dog.

It was amazing; until i was within touching distance, i couldn't see any differences, & then they were slight.
A few white hairs mixed in the grey markings, more grizzle, & blacker markings - spectacles, mane, back.
Other than that, he was a color photocopy of my dog - dead as a doornail, poor fella. He was a bit thin, too.

The other ringer was an equal shock; Wolf wasn't in the habit of leaving our farm unless he was with someone,
so i was upset to see my dog trotting along Lehnenberg Rd in broad daylight!, as i drove to the grocery. It was only
about a mile & a half back to our farm, but still - this was unacceptable!

I pulled over, parked the car, got out & yelled, "Wolf - Go HOME!", & that animal never even looked around -
he took off as if he'd been shot from a cannon, flying into the woods a good 20 or 30-ft before he paused in
the brush to peer back at me, head low & forward, tail down -- & vanished.
Again, aside from tiny differences in markings, the spitting image of my dog; it had to have been another
of his abandoned brothers. :nonod: He was a bit skinny, & his petticoats were starred with burrs; it was autumn.

I do wonder how many were shot [Wolf was shot at by someone when he went missing, at 12-WO; he came home
with a bullet-crease thru his coat, from a .22 - just above his hindquarters. He'd have been crippled & died,
or praps they'd have had the decency to walk over & kill him as he struggled - who knows].

The farmers there had no pity for stray dogs, & would shoot them on sight, or turn their own dogs onto them,
to chase them down & maul them if they caught them. I'm sure some starved, others were HBC.
.
.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2015)

ThelifeofPi said:


> This entire document is incredibly sad. Its tragic to think that people promote the breeding of such an animal and own it as some sort of status symbol.
> The Tragedy of Wolf Dogs
> 
> For years I struggled with what to call wolfdog hybrids. Should I call them wolves? Dogs? Wolfdogs doesnt flow off the tongue, it is awkward to say. And yet, it is thus the perfect name, because they are not wolves, they are not dogs, and they are trapped in the awkwardness of being neither. They cant live in the wild, and many of them cant live with us in our homes, and so they are trapped in a never-never land of never being comfortable in their surroundings.


I often share that exact link in these hybrid discussions, it is exactly that - a tragedy.


----------



## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

I took a look at a UK breeder Wolf Dogs - UK Wolf Dog Breeders and the most alarming thing about that site is, they have no information to educate those thinking about a hybrid. Nothing about owning a dangerous animal; nothing about the difficulties and cons of owning one of these poor creatures. Just a heap of pups and adult dogs for sale


----------



## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Wild animals, not dogs and certainly not banned. The link didn't include F1 hybrids.


The dangerous dog link didn't include hybrids? That is because - once again - they are not considered to be dogs.
F1 hybrids are included under the dangerous wild animals act and as such fall under the rules already quoted.

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-animallist.pdf



> All species except those of the genera
> Alopex, Cerdocyon, Dusicyon, Otocyon,
> Pseudolopex, Urocyon, Vulpes and
> Nyctereutes.
> ...


ARCHIVE: Defra, UK - : Wildlife Protection - Dangerous Wild Animals Act - Hybrids of domestic animals









http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-wolfdogs.pdf


> The Dangerous Wild Animals
> Act 1976 (Modification) Order 1984 alters the original 1976 schedule of the species covered
> by the Act to include hybrids.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I took a look at a UK breeder Wolf Dogs - UK Wolf Dog Breeders and the most alarming thing about that site is, they have no information to educate those thinking about a hybrid. Nothing about owning a dangerous animal; nothing about the difficulties and cons of owning one of these poor creatures. Just a heap of pups and adult dogs for sale


You can choose one online and pay for it by credit card.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Blitz said:


> You can choose one online and pay for it by credit card.


Holy sh!t .


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I took a look at a UK breeder Wolf Dogs - UK Wolf Dog Breeders and the most alarming thing about that site is, they have no information to educate those thinking about a hybrid. Nothing about owning a dangerous animal; nothing about the difficulties and cons of owning one of these poor creatures. Just a heap of pups and adult dogs for sale


I doubt those are actual hybrids but any of those breeds should not be available for any moron with a credit card


----------



## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

@BlueJay

Both links are about licensing and we have all agreed that hybrid wolves have to carry this license. It doesnt state that the animal has to remain confined. The second link led me back to the DEFRA link I have posted and again says little to nothing regarding exercise or the use of a muzzle.

Without seeing a full copy of a licence or talking directly to the governing body that deals with this, I remain unconvinced that these animals can't be walked whilst muzzled.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> @BlueJay
> 
> Both links are about licensing and we have all agreed that hybrid wolves have to carry this license. It doesn't state that the animal has to remain confined. The second link led me back to the DEFRA link I have posted and again says little to nothing regarding exercise or the use of a muzzle.
> 
> Without seeing a full copy of a licence or talking directly to the governing body that deals with this, I remain unconvinced that these animals can't be walked whilst muzzled.


conditions that, while any animal concerned is being kept only under the authority of the licence,-
(i)the animal shall be kept by no person other than such person or persons as is or are specified (whether by name or description) in the licence;
(ii)the animal shall normally be held at such premises as are specified in the licence;
(iii)the animal shall not be moved from those premises or shall only be moved from them in such circumstances as are specified in the licence;
(iv)the person to whom the licence is granted shall hold a current insurance policy which insures him and any other person entitled to keep the animal under the authority of the licence against liability for any damage which may be caused by the animal; and
(v)the terms of any such policy shall be satisfactory in the opinion of the authority;

Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976

Would seem to cover it. You can't take them for a walk anymore than you can a tiger or pure wolf held under the licence.


----------



## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> I doubt those are actual hybrids but any of those breeds should not be available for any moron with a credit card


Another '_breeder_' even offers free delivery throughout the UK, discounts if you buy more than one puppy and will reduce the price by £200 or more if they are over 12 weeks old. Over the last 11 months this other '_breeder_' has bred at least 58 puppies a mix of mutts of wolf-lookalikes, Czechoslovakian crosses, Saarloos crosses and apparently pure Czechoslovakian wolfdogs and pure Saarloos  :nonod:

Breeders in the UK of apparent 'Wolf-dog hybrids', Czechoslovakian wolfdogs or Saarloos wolfhounds are just lining their pockets. I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole and sadly it appears nothing can be done because they are often licensed to breed more than five litters. :mad2:


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Shikoku said:


> Another '_breeder_' even offers free delivery throughout the UK, discounts if you buy more than one puppy and will reduce the price by £200 or more if they are over 12 weeks old. Over the last 11 months this other '_breeder_' has bred at least 58 puppies a mix of mutts of wolf-lookalikes, Czechoslovakian crosses, Saarloos crosses and apparently pure Czechoslovakian wolfdogs and pure Saarloos  :nonod:
> 
> Breeders in the UK of apparent 'Wolf-dog hybrids', Czechoslovakian wolfdogs or Saarloos wolfhounds are just lining their pockets. I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole and sadly it appears nothing can be done because they are often licensed to breed more than five litters. :mad2:


It's frustrating when any breed ends up in the hands of bybs/puppy farms but when it's such specialist breeds as these that are so appealing to the general public :mad5:


----------



## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> conditions that, while any animal concerned is being kept only under the authority of the licence,
> (i)the animal shall be kept by no person other than such person or persons as is or are specified (whether by name or description) in the licence;
> (ii)the animal shall *normally* be held at such premises as are specified in the licence;
> (iii)the animal shall not be moved from those premises or shall *only be moved from them in such circumstances as are specified in the licence*;
> ...


Without knowing what "normal" stands for or what is actually specified in the licence, it doesn't tell us anything.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Without knowing what "normal" stands for or what is actually specified in the licence, it doesn't tell us anything.


Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976

A local authority shall not grant a licence under this Act unless it is satisfied that
(a)it is not contrary to the public interest on the grounds of safety, nuisance or otherwise to grant the licence;
(b)the applicant for the licence is a suitable person to hold a licence under this Act;
(c)any animal concerned will at all times of its being kept only under the authority of the licence
(i)be held in accommodation which secures that the animal will not escape, which is suitable as regards construction, size, temperature, lighting, ventilation, drainage and cleanliness and which is suitable for the number of animals proposed to be held in the accommodation, and
(ii)be supplied with adequate and suitable food, drink and bedding material and be visited at suitable intervals;
(d)appropriate steps will at all such times be taken for the protection of any animal concerned in case of fire or other emergency;
(e)all reasonable precautions will be taken at all such times to prevent and control the spread of infectious diseases;
(f)while any animal concerned is at the premises where it will normally be held, its accommodation is such that it can take adequate exercise.

All of the species on the licence are considered dangerous, you can't take a wolf or another wild canid on the licence for a walk so why would you be able to walk a hybrid?

Although you can keep a wolf-hybrid as a house pet on the NI licence :scared: you just have to be sure it has plenty of enclosed space for exercise.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Good DoG, i hope they get her spayed before she gets preg! ... or WHEN she gets bred, i hope they use
> a mismate jab, or an emergency-spay - even a false-pregnancy after an emergency-spay in the 1st
> trimester would be preferable to another unplanned litter. :nonod:
> 
> ...


I think if I were offered or saw one in rescue, I'd be there in a flash, cross or not. I very nearly took one on a while back, but I think taking on a grown dog with Zak, aka the werewolf, wouldn't be easy. What's HBC?

My boy's sire and dam, Dulcet and Lewin and other foundation stock. The breeder is the Honourary Northern Secretary, I think, although hasn't bred for years.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> I think if I were offered or saw [a Keeshound] in rescue, I'd be there in a flash, cross or not. I very nearly took one on
> awhile back, but I think taking on a grown dog with Zak, aka the werewolf, wouldn't be easy.
> 
> What's HBC? "Hit By Car" -
> ...


Of the 4, my boy's dam most-resembled Dulcet, but her face was a bit lighter & thus her spectacles were more
visible - also, her forechest wasn't as deeply upholstered as Dulcet's; hers looks to be easily 4-inches long.

Handsome dogs, all of them. :yesnod:
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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Never heard of that, on this side of the pond - hybrid attack?
> Escapees killed livestock? Human mauling? ___ ?


In Ohio a guy who kept lions tigers bears and wolfs let them loose. The police who knew he had all the dangerous animal had little choice but to shoot them all despite the tigers being endangered.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

emzybabe said:


> In Ohio a guy who kept lions tigers bears and wolfs let them loose. The police who knew he had all the dangerous animal had little choice but to shoot them all despite the tigers being endangered.


Most privately owned tigers are useless to the conservation effort due to lack of info on lineage, subspecies etc.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

BlueJay said:


> Most privately owned tigers are useless to the conservation effort due to lack of info on lineage, subspecies etc.


No no they're totally pure bengal, despite everyone else saying there are no pure bengals outside of India, and despite being inbred for random colours are totally useful for the conservation effort :yesnod: .

The guy had serious mental health issues and because no one changes the law unless something that dramatic happens, Ohio now thankfully has restrictions on people keeping things like tigers and thinking that handrearing and declawing makes them safe pets 

Most pet tigers especially in the US are no use in saving their wild counterparts. They're random mixes of the subspecies, most of the whites have amur in them for example, and have no traceable records that zoos have with the studbooks.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emzybabe said:


> In Ohio, a guy who kept lions, tigers, bears, & wolves let them [out of their cages].
> The police, who knew he had all these dangerous animals, had little choice but to shoot them all ...


:nonod: I remember that case - i think he committed suicide, just after turning them all out of their cages,
didn't he? --- Very sad for all concerned, & terrifying for the community, too.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

What do you see in this fella? My Brother's in love. I think he should probably just stick to walking the residents.


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## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

Sosha said:


> What do you see in this fella? My Brother's in love. I think he should probably just stick to walking the residents.


Looks like a German Shepherd crossed with a Malamute or Husky.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sosha said:


> What do you see in this fella? My Brother's in love. I think he should probably just stick to walking the residents.


Part wolf really? really?????

Bless him.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Curiosity got the better of me so I phoned Defra who put me in touch with CITES, who also didn't know and told me to contact Envirmental Health. They didn't know either but told me to try my local police wildlife officer. They looked into it and got back to me. They told me that an F1/F2 wolf hybrid have to be licensed under the dangerous animals act and can only be walked on the owners land, fencing permitting. An F3 doesn't have to be licensed and can be walked like a normal dog. 

Lying or not these people walking their hybrid informed me they were breaking the law. Lets hope i bump into them again soon. 

Another concerning thing is, the F1 does not need a rabies shot when entering the UK. What the hell???


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> ...I phoned Defra who [sent me to] CITES, who... told me to contact Enviromental Health, [who] told me
> to try my local police wildlife-officer.
> 
> S/he looked into it and got back to me, & told me that an F1 or F2 wolf hybrid must be licensed
> ...


Yes, please, Goddess -
that would be nifty. NEXT TIME, get a photo of the eejits AND their hybrid -
if at all possible, one at a distance with the hybrid OFF leash, & one posed with the owners, as a group,
so that the owners' FACES are clearly identifiable - U can say U want a keepsake, surely? :ihih:

Then take the photo-evidence to that wonderful, helpful wildlife-officer, & have them follow up. :thumbsup:


ThelifeofPi said:


> ...an F1-hybrid *does not need a rabies shot [record?]* when entering the UK. What the hell???


They need not PROVE the animal has been vaccinated? :crazy: No vet-certificate stating this animal was
vaccinated against rabies on thus-&-so date?

that's truly asinine, if it's true; :nonod: it simply flies in the face of logic.
.
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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Curiosity got the better of me so I phoned Defra who put me in touch with CITES, who also didn't know and told me to contact Envirmental Health. They didn't know either but told me to try my local police wildlife officer. They looked into it and got back to me. They told me that an F1/F2 wolf hybrid have to be licensed under the dangerous animals act and can only be walked on the owners land, fencing permitting. An F3 doesn't have to be licensed and can be walked like a normal dog.
> 
> Lying or not these people walking their hybrid informed me they were breaking the law. Lets hope i bump into them again soon.
> 
> Another concerning thing is, the F1 does not need a rabies shot when entering the UK. What the hell???


It would need to be quarantined for 6 months as does any carnivore that can't get a pet passport I would assume :sosp:


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

The question is, can a dangerous animal get a passport? These people claimed their hybrid had one. They didn't say if it had been inoculated against rabies but when I read that Defra link, it specifically said that hybrids that come under the dangerous animals act are not required to be inoculated. Perhaps wolves don't respond to rabies shots that are made specifically for canines. 

I'm jumping the gun here. I can only presume that this hybrid was minimum F3 but the owners felt the need to brag otherwise which is rather stupid considering their dog could be removed and tested based on their egotistical tongues. If it has a passport and travels as much as they claimed it did, it would have to have a rabies shot because border control back into the UK is very strict and smuggling something that big would be a real problem. If it is an F1 then its doubtful it may not hold a passport or have a rabies shot and according to British law, is not allowed out in public spaces. 

Leashedforlife, good idea. I always have my phone on me so taking a picture wouldn't be a problem.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> The question is, can a dangerous animal get a passport? These people claimed their hybrid had one. They didn't say if it had been inoculated against rabies but when I read that Defra link, it specifically said that hybrids that come under the dangerous animals act are not required to be inoculated. Perhaps wolves don't respond to rabies shots that are made specifically for canines.
> 
> I'm jumping the gun here. I can only presume that this hybrid was minimum F3 but the owners felt the need to brag otherwise which is rather stupid considering their dog could be removed and tested based on their egotistical tongues. If it has a passport and travels as much as they claimed it did, it would have to have a rabies shot because border control back into the UK is very strict and smuggling something that big would be a real problem. If it is an F1 then its doubtful it may not hold a passport or have a rabies shot and according to British law, is not allowed out in public spaces.
> 
> Leashedforlife, good idea. I always have my phone on me so taking a picture wouldn't be a problem.


They changed it just recently so that hybrid dogs and cats couldn't get it which caused concern for cat owners with bengals and the other hybrid breeds. So a hybrid would need to be quarantined same as any other wild canine brought in

The new EU Regulation specifically states that the only species of pet animal that can travel
under the EU pet travel rules are:
• Canis lupis familiaris - domestic dog
• Felis silvestris catus - domestic cat
• Mustela putorius furo - ferret
The reason for this change is to make sure that wild animals can't be moved under rules
designed for pet travel.4
This change will not affect the majority of pet owners. However, if your pet is a hybrid (such as a
Bengal or Savannah cat, or a Wolfdog) then you must seek advice from the Animal Health and
Veterinary Laboratories Agency before you travel. They will advise you on the import
requirements for your pet. See 'Contact us' below

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...90396/pet-travel-scheme-dec-2014-guidance.pdf


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> ... when I read *that DEFRA link*, it [*specified*] *that hybrids* that come under the dangerous animals act
> *are not required to be inoculated.
> 
> Perhaps wolves don't respond to rabies shots... made specifically for canines. *
> ...


Pi, please recognize that this isn't directed at U - i've heard that as a flat statement of fact, from ppl who
actually *do* know better, & it's cr*p. :nonod:

Wolves ARE canines. :incazzato: They're just not DOGS. :incazzato: I really *hate* that argument - the USDA has made that claim,
& it's plainly bullsh*t.

All they've succeeded in doing is driving some hybrid- & wolf-owners underground, as now, they're AFRAID to get
their animals vaccinated, for fear the vet might recognize the non-dog & their 'hidden' pet become public knowledge,
& then, they might lose ownership / face criminal charges / pay a fine, etc.

Dammit, ZOOS vaccinate their livestock against rabies; they vaccinate WOLVES. Has any captive-bred, captive-kept
wolf ever erupted with active rabies & died of it, AFTER BEING VACCINATED?... Not that i've heard of.
it's a ridiculous assertion, & the authorities make it in defiance of its very ridiculousness. ARRGGH. :incazzato:

I vaccinated my dogs, cats, & even my PONY against rabies; I'm damn*d glad i vaxed the pony, as the boarding
stable where i kept her later had an invasion of *rats*, & it was one less worry; i moved her to another barn,
but i kept up her rabies-vax every 3-years.

If i can vaccinate my ferret, pet-skunk, fox, pony, horse, dog, goat, sheep, cows, etc - why in H*** can't i give
a rabies-vaccine to a wolf, & be confident they're protected, altho - LIKE ANY OTHER ANIMAL - they'd need post-
exposure shots if they were bitten by a rabid animal?  What supposedly makes them an exception?

It's the worst PR campaign in history; it solves nothing, there's no science to support it, it does NOTHING good,
& it only makes a bad situation [wolves & hybrids in pet homes] that much worse.

Rant over - sorry, but that just drives me apesh!t.   GAAHHHHH!
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