# Cesar coming to UK to help problem dogs!!!



## CavGirl (Nov 15, 2009)

Just incase anyone is interested! To submit your video you need to go to Cesars website for more info!

Attention UK: Audition for Dog Whisperer!

Bad dogs wanted! The hit television show Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan is now looking for out-of-control dogs across the pond. If you live in England and would like to be considered for the show, please make a five- to seven-minute video that showcases your pooch's problems. We're looking for a wide variety of dog dilemmas, including unusual phobias, obsessions, fearful behavior, aggression, or any other unique situations that Cesar Millan could help you correct.

Your video must be post-marked by March 2, 2010. The sooner your video is viewed, the greater your chance is of being picked for the show.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Yay! The chance to have your dog wrestled, poked, prodded, kicked, pinched and terrorised! Possibly even strangled to the point of unconsciousness! If you're really lucky, he'll zap it with an electric collar, which is sometimes so effective it will cause your dog to bite you! Get those videos in, folks!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yay! The chance to have your dog wrestled, poked, prodded, kicked, pinched and terrorised! Possibly even strangled to the point of unconsciousness! Get those videos in, folks!


Tut! You forgot about the electric shock collar usage! How remiss of you Colliepoodle!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Tut! You forgot about the electric shock collar usage! How remiss of you Colliepoodle!


Hell yeah! How could I forget! Editing right now! Thanks x


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I wonder where he stands on a legal level with his methods.

Surely some of the things he does to dogs would be considered illegal and an act of cruelty in the UK?

I would hope that a vet and someone from a welfare organisation would be present at all times. I cant see him getting away with hanging dogs until they almost pass out over here.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> I wonder where he stands on a legal level with his methods.
> 
> Surely some of the things he does to dogs would be considered illegal and an act of cruelty in the UK?
> 
> I would hope that a vet and someone from a welfare organisation would be present at all times. I cant see him getting away with hanging dogs until they almost pass out over here.


I can't understand how he gets away with it over there, TBH.

A look at the AHA website will show that when they monitor the use of animals in films, even the bloody cockroaches have to have suitable accommodation and treatment. If you're making a film and you want a fly-swatting scene, you'd have to either use fake flies or CGI. How he gets away with it ANYWHERE is beyond me.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I would actually LOVE him to look at my new import. She is the most 'submissive' dog ever, rolling on her back even when my 18 month old grandson approaches her, but she constantly stands upright, tail up, arching her neck to my other dogs. My dogs are not intimidated at all, they just ignore her (my oldest bitch will sometimes clean her ears or eyes whilst she is in this position lol) but I am SURE CM would say she was 'dominant'. She is just learning the rules, thats all. I just wonder what he would do to her. She'd be on her back in a second if he loomed over her, what would he make of that?


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

I don't see what all the excitement is about to be honest


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## Plabebob (Nov 30, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I wonder where he stands on a legal level with his methods.
> 
> Surely some of the things he does to dogs would be considered illegal and an act of cruelty in the UK?
> 
> I would hope that a vet and someone from a welfare organisation would be present at all times. I cant see him getting away with hanging dogs until they almost pass out over here.


As far as I've heard he makes people sign waivers that he can do anything to their dog. As if it's the owner's choice that he can commit animal cruelty! He should be locked up for the rest of his life.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Sorry but this thread was started about where CM was to be seen, why does evrything have to turn into a debate what he does?Lets keep it on track and for those who don't agree with CM ignore the thread.*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but this thread was started about where CM was to be seen, why does evrything have to turn into a debate what he does?Lets keep it on track and for those who don't agree with CM ignore the thread.*


By that logic, the thread needs no replies at all then!


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

I take it you lot are not over the moon that he is coming over then lol


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> By that logic, the thread needs no replies at all then!


*If people can't be nice then why not keep their oppions to themselves? The thread is going off topic.*


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## Plabebob (Nov 30, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *If people can't be nice then why not keep their oppions to themselves? The thread is going off topic.*


No need to censor us just because you disagree! We're not just picking on him - it's a discussion, forums aren't just about being nice about people but debating points of view. Why don't you explain why you like him? You may win some people over


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Plabebob said:


> As far as I've heard he makes people sign waivers that he can do anything to their dog. As if it's the owner's choice that he can commit animal cruelty! He should be locked up for the rest of his life.


But he's not above the law. He still has to abide by welfare standards/legalities, regardless of a waiver.

I really wish he would do a televised questions and answers session. Would be an interesting debate.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Plabebob said:


> No need to censor us just because you disagree! We're not just picking on him - it's a discussion, forums aren't just about being nice about people but debating points of view. Why don't you explain why you like him? You may win some people over


*Your right it is an open forum with rules, one which says keep threads on topic.If you go through any of my previous posts you will find out why i like him.*


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

For one I am quite pleased his coming over! I have never seen him use a shock collar! Not saying he doesnt, but some of my techniques I use comes from him, none of them are brutal to my dog and it gets results. If you have a bad doggy and something works then isnt that better? Tbh the things he does arent that far off from what dog borstal use!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I, and yes be shocked, think it's a good thing. It might make people who have only see the hugely edited show think twice when theres a nearly unconsious dog on stage from strangulation.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

I don't really understand how talking about CM on a thread about CM is going of topic?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jackson said:


> I don't really understand how talking about CM on a thread about CM is going of topic?


*Please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought the Op was just letting people know he was coming to the uk and how to get to be involved.*


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

just out of curiosity (SP) I like the show on TV but thats not to say that behind the scenes he uses the same technique. I have only ever seen good episodes of him. Can anyone post a link to some bad episodes so I can take a look. Sorry just being nosey again.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

If you go on the Nat Geo Wild website they have a video of a dog called Shadow who he basically suffocates with a choke collar and then still insists he's dominant when he's on the ground almost unconsious. Also there's another one of a black gsd which he uses an e-collar on without telling the audience because he barked at the cat


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *If you go through any of my previous posts you will find out why i like him.*


errmmm, janice? 
thinking he is sexy has nada to do with dogs?...  
cheers, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> just out of curiosity (SP) I like the show on TV but thats not to say that behind the scenes he uses the same technique. I have only ever seen good episodes of him. Can anyone post a link to some bad episodes so I can take a look. Sorry just being nosey again.


Scroll back to the post I put on before and there you will see a link to an example of CM's 'work'.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

cutekiaro1 said:


> just out of curiosity (SP) I like the show on TV but thats not to say that behind the scenes he uses the same technique. I have only ever seen good episodes of him. Can anyone post a link to some bad episodes so I can take a look. Sorry just being nosey again.


I think it is sometimes hard to pick out why his methods can be so damaging to dogs if you aren't sure what you're looking for. Most of his episodes feature some sort of aversive training methods. A whole group of welfare , that include the RSPCA< Blue CRoss, DOgs Trust and the BVA amongst many others, have recently made a press release and set up a website stating why aversive techniques, such as those used by CM can be damaging to dogs and are a welfare issue.

You can read it here:

Welfare in Dog Training


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> errmmm, janice?
> thinking he is sexy has nada to do with dogs?...
> cheers,
> --- terry


*Oh dont say that, at my age i need to have my dreams.*


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## Plabebob (Nov 30, 2009)

Lol. I guess you've got the best excuse going!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Plabebob said:


> Lol. I guess you've got the best excuse going!


*Thats so true plus i've learnt each to their own.*


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Got to love threads like this.


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## Plabebob (Nov 30, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Thats so true plus i've learnt each to their own.*


Absolutely. I prefer men with beards myself...


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I prefer men who don't string dogs up until they pass out, but there ya go....


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

I generally steer clear of CM debates, because they usually are extremely one sided, with the antis taking over.

Having said that I am don't agree with a much of what he does in relation to adversiveses and can't condone some of his methods.

However, as someone interested in training, I am fascinated by his thinking and ideas, some of which aren't so bad and do have a good base if he carried things forward in a different way. I do also think that at times he has been incredible bold/or stupid, when he has pushed a dog to the limits (rightly or wrongly, I am not debating that) and it has resulted in good result. Having said that I have also seen some incidents where the result hasn't been so good and I dislike seeing any dog bullied into a behaviour that I know will not be sustainable once the force has gone.

I am going to see him live, because I am interested in what he has to say, that doesn't mean I have to accept his ideas or methods, I am informed enough to pick out what I feel is acceptable and relevant and discard what I feel is not acceptable.

Yes I am concerned that pet owners with little knowledge of training and dogs will think he is totally right, but then I have seen people with really difficult dogs being told not 'intervene' or 'correct' in anyway whatsoever by a so called 'positive' trainer, that the dog was so out of control that it was dangerous because the owner was giving no controls or guidance whatsoever! (admittedly this isn't the norm!).

I still say that CM for all his faults, has made people think they can seek help for their dogs and that calling someone in to help, could be an option.

Thousands and thousands of dogs are being abused daily and kept in appalling conditions in the UK, somewhere near you a dog is dying of starvation or lack of veterinary treatment. These are the issues that we should be getting upset about and trying to change.

Pick holes in my logic by all means, there are plenty of them in this ramble, but I will still be going to see Cesar and yes add to his coffers, but because I am interested in hearing what he has to say.

Kate


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...I am interested in hearing what he has to say.


hey, kate! :--)

it is not what he *says* that is generally the problem - 
there are the bizarre over-analysis moments where he ascribes some (species-normal) behavior to energy - the owners, the dogs, the visitors - or his irritating habit of labeling EVERYthing remotely objectionable as rooted in *dominance*...  which gets old very quickly. 

but he also frequently makes statements that are inarguable truisms, in fact cliches - and for some reason, many of his most-vocal fans seem to think he has created them out of whole-cloth; that he is in fact, the *originator* of these hoary old-truths. :blink: which considering i was 10-YO when i first heard them, and am now more than 3 decades older, is a bit of a stretch!

 * dogs need exercise - well, duh! 
* dogs need limits - duh, again... 
Rules for behavior generally include, 
_ Do not leap over the sofa or vault the lamp on the side-table,_ and * the cat is not a chew-toy... * amongst others. 
* dogs need consistency - 
good GRIEF what trainer has not repeated this like a mantra over a string of beads, _ numina numina numina numina... _ and dog-owners often STILL ignore the visitor allowing the dog to jump-up and who then pets + fusses the dog...  and next-week they will complain, _*my dog STILL jumps on visitors...*_ arrgggghhh, humans! :mad2:

the major objection most people have to these programs on Natl-Geo is the philosophical foundation, * dogs are our adversaries and are out to rule humans, * and secondarily and most-disturbing, the physical means of control + manipulation that are clearly demonstrated - flooding, choking, poking, bitey-hands, pinning, rolling, stringing-up, et al.

if he was primarily on radio, it would be less disturbing and less dangerous - as so many clueless audience-members would not become callous or even blind to the very social-signals that dogs use to communicate their distress, appeasement, frustration, fear, anger, etc.

these social-signals are often completely ignored whether they are subtle or obvious, or when noted are entirely mislabeled - potentially even-more dangerous when the well-meaning but unschooled viewer, as is inevitable, later also mislabels a social-signal.

confrontation is dramatic + sells well, but it is also an emotionally-fraught process which frequently explodes, injuring both parties. 
less drama, more science... 
--- terry


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I wouldn't do half the things Cesar does - mainly because I don't feel I need to. But I do think he has the right idea about some things. Like dogs needing more excercise and socilisation. & about how owners have to stop treating their dogs like children. & i really respect his beliefs about pit bulls ect - that its not the dog, but the owners fault. I think his techniques seem to work, but i don't think people should try to copy them. They seem to be very tricky to get right and to know what circumstances require what technique ect. Just my opinion  Nicole xx


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I will keep this short and sweet i dont know ANYBODY that is 100% perfect and as a CM fan i know he can't be either.But the one thing i do know is this if it had not been for him many a dog would have been pts.

*


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I will keep this short and sweet i dont know ANYBODY that is 100% perfect and as a CM fan i know he can't be either.But the one thing i do know is this if it had not been for him many a dog would have been pts.
> 
> *


Agreed . I don't know many people who can have that many supposed 'vicious' dogs together and they live quite happily as well  xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re fuzzBugs -
> _ ...he has the right idea about some things. Like dogs need() more exercise and socialisation. &... owners (should) stop treating their dogs like children.
> ...i really respect his beliefs about pitbulls (and other maligned breeds) - that its not the dog(breed), but the owners fault (if the dog is aggressive, badly-behaved, etc). _


like i said, bugsy -  
plenty of other ppl have said all of that before, and will say it again - it is not original. 
and many of those previous-quotes came from trainers or behaviorists who use entirely different physical methods, and have an altogether different belief about dog-behavior and humans: 
that dogs are generally very-willing partners, not rebellious anarchists, who WANT to learn, WANT to spend time with us, and WANT to buddy-up - not overthrow the social structure.  dogs don;t lie about cobbling IEDs from spare-parts in the junk-drawer and calculating how many humans have to survive to grow crops + raise livestock to feed the dogs, when they achieve their goal of planetary dominion!  
cheers, 
--- terry


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> like i said, bugsy -
> plenty of other ppl have said all of that before, and will say it again - it is not original.
> and many of those previous-quotes came from trainers or behaviorists who use entirely different physical methods, and have an altogether different belief about dog-behavior and humans:
> that dogs are generally very-willing partners, not rebellious anarchists, who WANT to learn, WANT to spend time with us, and WANT to buddy-up - not overthrow the social structure.  dogs don;t lie about cobbling IEDs from spare-parts in the junk-drawer and calculating how many humans have to survive to grow crops + raise livestock to feed the dogs, when they achieve their goal of planetary dominion!
> ...


Bugsy !! Lol - I agree with you . Cesar's not the first to say what he says - I agree with the stated points he makes. I don't worship the guy but I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as people imply. Nicole x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...if it had not been for him many a dog would have been pts.


how many? precisely? just of the ON-camera dogs over the seasons of the show - 
How many were going to be killed for their behavior?

the Dane who was petrified of slick-floors? the Saint who was afraid of the open staircase? the boisterous Dane who harassed his elder-bitch buddy? the Jindo who was wary of lying-down within arms reach? the Bassett who did not get along with the relatives Doxies? the Lab who would not stay out of the pool? the 8-YO ACD-mix bitch who was **terrified!** of the vet? those are just off the top of my head...

those were all candidates for euthanasia? i don;t think so. 
--- terry


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> But I do think he has the right idea about some things. Like dogs needing more excercise and socilisation. & about how owners have to stop treating their dogs like children.


All decent trainers worth their salt will say exactly the same things, and have been doing so for decades; and in the UK these and other responsibilities are made very clear throughout the Kennel Club Good Citizen Scheme (where you are tested on your knowledge of such responsibilities during the award tests).


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> how many? precisely? just of the ON-camera dogs over the seasons of the show -
> How many were going to be killed for their behavior?
> 
> the Dane who was petrified of slick-floors? the Saint who was afraid of the open staircase? the boisterous Dane who harassed his elder-bitch buddy? the Jindo who was wary of lying-down within arms reach? the Bassett who did not get along with the relatives Doxies? the Lab who would not stay out of the pool? the 8-YO ACD-mix bitch who was **terrified!** of the vet? those are just off the top of my head...
> ...


*Now i dont know how many but i know for a fact Daddy's owner gave up on him.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...i know for a fact Daddy's owner gave up on him.


Daddy started-out as a dog who was being boarded, as his ?musician? actor? owner spent too-much time on the road, + Daddy was not well-behaved in small dressing-rooms with little attention, and lots of boredom. 
Daddy was not, to the best of my knowledge, in any danger of being killed. 
--- terry


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## piglet74 (Jan 27, 2010)

I must say that i like some of CM ideas, alot of his training i might not want to apply to my pup. but lets not forget that most of the dogs he deal with have SEVERE issues and clearly need someone to take control, not your average pet. I have heard him say on numerous episodes that he dont agree with the the metal spike chain (cant for the life of me remember its name) and he advocate the use of the collar higher on the neck, not to restric air flow but to limit the dogs natural respons to pull harder. I cant say i have ever seen an episode where the dog is unconscious or strangled, i must have missed those. However I really dont like his flooding treadmill  thats very extreme and surely can will lead to more anxiety! But saying that i can see were he is coming from in _some_ cases when a dog has a fear that they can only move forward if they can see that nothing bad happens, for example the dog who really hated going in the car but by distracting the dog and doing it over and over the dog soon relaxed, the same where the dog was scared of the slippery floor (owner was a fire man or something) but by not letting the dog stop when it first went onto the floor and allow it to get into the owerwhelming state of fear, surely he showed the dog that he was ok and he could trust his owner to keep him safe. It def seemed to work as he was quite happily strolling around all over the floor within minutes, and this without the dog needing to be rugby tackled or choked or in any other way bullied or beat. 
But hey i do recognise that i have limited knowledge so i might be way off...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

but it is mostly pet dogs he deals with... i dont understand where people see the severe cases in his episodes all the time...
The red zone dog which barked at the cat? Do i have to worry about my own dog now and electrocute him? hmy:
The dog which is obsessed with tissues? the dog which refused to eat his pills? because they want to take over the world? :wink:

and here is a little clip of him strangeling a dog with a LEAD which tightens really easy by little pulling and the dog collapses because of lack of oxygen and its definitly not because it submitted to cesar.... note the blue tongue caused by lack of oxygen at the end of the clip :crying: u can see the death fear in the dogs eyes and the dog is fighting for his life!!.... disguting technics!! :nonod:

YouTube - DW - JonBee - No Audio


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> but it is mostly pet dogs he deals with... i dont understand where people see the severe cases in his episodes all the time...
> The red zone dog which barked at the cat? Do i have to worry about my own dog now and electrocute him? hmy:
> The dog which is obsessed with tissues? the dog which refused to eat his pills? because they want to take over the world? :wink:
> 
> ...


*what about all the dogs from hurrican katrina? the puupy farms he's been to?
As i've said before i find it strange watching something on film where CM is concerned is classed as FACT but whjen PDE was shown it was classed as fake. LMAO*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Came across this link yesterday. It explains an awful lot to me.  Does the Milgram Experiment Explain Cesar Millans Influence?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *what about all the dogs from hurrican katrina? the puupy farms he's been to?
> As i've said before i find it strange watching something on film where CM is concerned is classed as FACT but whjen PDE was shown it was classed as fake. LMAO*


So what are u saying janice...that this clip is fake and someone dressed up as him and used a toy dog to strangle on camera?  That the dog in real had fun and they just make us believe that it did suffocate nearly to death? :huh:

He is someone who is famous through tv, there are real heros who helped out after hurricane catrina but noone points the finger at them because they dont have a famous name attached to them and they are not someone who was out to give himself more publicity ....


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now i dont know how many but i know for a fact Daddy's owner gave up on him.*


At just 4 months of age. Its highly doubtful at that age that the dog would have been euthanised for behavioural or temperamantal issues.
So he's not a saved red zone animal. Far, far from it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Natik said:



So what are u saying janice...that this clip is fake and someone dressed up as him and used a toy dog to strangle on camera?  That the dog in real had fun and they just make us believe that it did suffocate nearly to death? :huh:

He is someone who is famous through tv, there are real heros who helped out after hurricane catrina but noone points the finger at them because they dont have a famous name attached to them and they are not someone who was out to give himself more publicity ....

Click to expand...

lmao Natik any thing you say will be fine by me.I have a mind of my own and a brain believe it or not.People love to take things to the extreme (sp).
If all you people that are so against him why aren't you going to see him and confront him?Too much hard work? but if someone comes along and says sign this petition to stop CM you'd all do it.:nonod::nonod::lol::lol::lol:*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I personally would not waste money to go and see this person. If he actually knew his subject well and was someone who was doing great things for the world of dog training then I might have done. As for getting near him, do you honestly think that anyone will be able to? He will be VERY careful too not to openly abuse dogs during his shows as our RSPCA etc will also be watching closely.

So many organisations are openly coming out against him? Mind you, they know diddly squat about animal welfare and what constitutes cruelty in dog training of course!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> lmao Natik any thing you say will be fine by me.I have a mind of my own and a brain believe it or not.People love to take things to the extreme (sp).
> If all you people that are so against him why aren't you going to see him and confront him?Too much hard work? but if someone comes along and says sign this petition to stop CM you'd all do it.:nonod::nonod::lol::lol::lol:*


because most likly i would have to pay him to be able to get to see him  and no way im giving any of my money towards him so he can continue his torture :nonod:

People who agree with his cruel techniques imo havent seen a proper behaviorist dealing with the same issue in a much kinder, happier way with a long lasting result... but this process would take weeks to months rather than 30 minutes on tv... to much hard work for some maybe  :wink:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> I personally would not waste money to go and see this person. If he actually knew his subject well and was someone who was doing great things for the world of dog training then I might have done. As for getting near him, do you honestly think that anyone will be able to? He will be VERY careful too not to openly abuse dogs during his shows as our RSPCA etc will also be watching closely.
> 
> So many organisations are openly coming out against him? Mind you, they know diddly squat about animal welfare and what constitutes cruelty in dog training of course!


*Oh i'm sorry i must have misunderstood, i thought all those video clips where of him openly abusing dogs.*


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, kate! :--)
> 
> it is not what he *says* that is generally the problem -
> there are the bizarre over-analysis moments where he ascribes some (species-normal) behavior to energy - the owners, the dogs, the visitors - or his irritating habit of labeling EVERYthing remotely objectionable as rooted in *dominance*...  which gets old very quickly.
> ...


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh i'm sorry i must have misunderstood, i thought all those video clips where of him openly abusing dogs.*


He won't do it in the UK in a live show! That will no doubt have occured behind closed doors when he works with the dog away from the owners gaze!  Why else would the dogs react so submissively to a PSST! whereas most peoples 'unconditioned' dogs would take it as an exciting noise? Go figure! 

The RSPCA and many other welfare organisations may be sending people to his shows anyway. He may be arrogant but he is not so stupid as to openly abuse dogs in a live show.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> He won't do it in the UK in a live show! That will no doubt have occured behind closed doors when he works with the dog away from the owners gaze!  Why else would the dogs react so submissively to a PSST! whereas most peoples 'unconditioned' dogs would take it as an exciting noise? Go figure!
> 
> The RSPCA and many other welfare organisations may be sending people to his shows anyway. He may be arrogant but he is not so stupid as to openly abuse dogs in a live show.


when he uses the psst he also states you can use any noise you like,he uses that noise because his mother did to him when he was a kid.Its only a way of distracting the dog.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

When I do it to my dogs, they get so excited though? Its not so much the sound as what it signifies.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> when he uses the psst he also states you can use any noise you like,he uses that noise because his mother did to him when he was a kid.Its only a way of distracting the dog.


it distracts the dog alright... i have seen dogs cowering down and even running off in fear when he did the pssst noise


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

CavGirl said:


> Just incase anyone is interested! To submit your video you need to go to Cesars website for more info!
> 
> ...
> 
> Your video must be post-marked by March 2, 2010. The sooner your video is viewed, the greater your chance is of being picked for the show.


Save on the postage and simply kick and jab your dog at home and tell them it came from Cesar


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

And anyway you can bet your bottom dollar that everyone who volunteers dogs for the show will be signing themselves in disclaimer after disclaimer... that's normal in TV, but it will be a lot tighter with him.... a heck of a lot so.

Put it this way, I myself have been on national and international TV. Once I was being filmed for one of Nigel Marvin's shows. My footage did not make it onto the programme but I had to sign a contracts/disclaimer saying they were allowed to do with the footage as they wished and I absolved any copyright and right of redress once the show was aired. (Which gives them free rein to edit as they like even if it made me look a fool).

On the Richard & Judy show my disclaimer included an agreement that I would not advertise products, name other TV shows or swear or blaspheme. It also had the standard clause they could do with the footage as they wanted, then and IN THE FUTURE.

The people in CMs shows televised or not will be stitched up watertight. he had the million pound lawyers. If he damaged your dog, you would have no redress because I would willingly, happily bet any money you like that you will sign away your rights to how he can or can't treat your dog.

You will be seeing a legally tight and sanitized show when you go, and if he does damage any of the dogs, the owners will have NO redress and may not even be able to legally tell another living soul what he did.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I've never found a noise that makes my 3 react the same way as the dogs Cesar deals with. Well, only when I get a binbag out and shake it to open it :huh:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> When I do it to my dogs, they get so excited though? Its not so much the sound as what it signifies.


*If you were to watch his programes as much as i have you will hear him tell people you can use any noise or word. ie. you could just say hey.*


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Natik said:


> it distracts the dog alright... i have seen dogs cowering down and even running off in fear when he did the pssst noise


Is that not interesting? When I do a PSST my dog barks in excitement.

How about if he used an e-collar and conditioned the dog beforehand to expect a shock when it heard that sound?

Yes you would expect a normal average dog to be very wary of that noise.

So how come most other people's dogs behave differently? doesn't that make you wonder?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Strange how pst doesn't have a bad affect on my 2.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Strange how pst doesn't have a bad affect on my 2.*


Doesnt it make you wonder why it gets such a strong reaction with the dogs he works on then?

Mine just look at me like im barmy.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Actually now that I think about it, people that disagree with his methods can can borrow or take in a foster with problems and then use that as a platform to challenge so many of his foolish assertions.

A behind enemy lines attack on Millan. I would love to see it.

So. I changed my mind. If you are a well schooled in positive training methods, can speak and stand up for them. Send in your video and sabotage him.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Strange how pst doesn't have a bad affect on my 2.*


well, do the psst while kicking ur dog and u will have the same reaction after a few time i have seen on cesars show ...

my dogs only look at me without even moving their heads when i do the psst but they dont react with fear because they do not associate the noise with pain nor punishment ...


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

I supose its how you use it, in the sense most people use the word NO. And because of the way its said, the dog generally understands? I say shhh to mine, but then the cats do make a similar noise when they hiss at them if they get too close.lol. So they are prob like oh crap wheres the cat. haha


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, do the psst while kicking ur dog and u will have the same reaction after a few time i have seen on cesars show ...
> 
> my dogs only look at me without even moving their heads when i do the psst but they dont react with fear because they do not associate the noise with pain nor punishment ...


I think my lot would associate it with one of them farting and be all  "wait hang on that wasn't me..." :huh:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> well, do the psst while kicking ur dog and u will have the same reaction after a few time i have seen on cesars show ...
> 
> my dogs only look at me without even moving their heads when i do the psst but they dont react with fear because they do not associate the noise with pain nor punishment ...


*To say he KICKS dogs is realy unfair, does he tap them with his foot yes he does.You and i both have or had gsd and noway would mine have taken such a thing as a KICK.*


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Strange how pst doesn't have a bad affect on my 2.*


Yours don't react to it in a 'bad' way...?
What effect does it have? Most peoples dogs react to it excitedly or ignore it.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> I think my lot would associate it with one of them farting and be all  "wait hang on that wasn't me..." :huh:


lol ...  that could explain why hubby reacted and looked at me with an innocent face expression  :blush:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> it distracts the dog alright... i have seen dogs cowering down and even running off in fear when he did the pssst noise


You too huh? I thought I needed to go to the opticians again!



JANICE199 said:


> *If you were to watch his programes as much as i have you will hear him tell people you can use any noise or word. ie. you could just say hey.*


Sooooooo...if I shout "BANG!" and then electrocute my dog with one of those damned awful collars or finger jabbed them in the neck, they will go all submissive? But if I said "BANG!" and then gave them a biscuit or started a game, they would get all excited!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *To say he KICKS dogs is realy unfair, does he tap them with his foot yes he does.You and i both have or had gsd and noway would mine have taken such a thing as a KICK.*


i didnt say he does, i only gave u an example of how u could achieve the same reaction he gets from the dogs.... a person can inflict pain or punishment in many different ways obviosly


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> lol ...  that could explain why hubby reacted and looked at me with an innocent face expression  :blush:


lmfao I think your hubby has a lot to answer for!! :lol:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> lmfao I think your hubby has a lot to answer for!! :lol:


.... he sure has! hmy:


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Would love to see CM as he is coming to Glasgow but cant get tickets:crying:

As for all of you on this forum who hate him ???

well he is asked by people to come and

- stop ther dogs attacking other dogs
- try and get there dogs to be more sociable
- stop there dogs being food and toy etc aggressive
and so on , and so on 

he also HAS to explain to owners about walking dogs, how some growling is not a show of aggresive behavior.
Some dog owners are stupid a dog is an animal not human and they need to be shown this.

Have you watched a mother playing and disciplining her pups ??His hand bites and foot knocks are just simulating what she does and as for choking dogs , what would you do to a dof that was attacking you ????
Yes I hear you say, but he kicked the dog and thats why it went for him. Well I am sorry but that could have been a REAL kick from a child and if it acted like that with CM what would it have done to a child ??

I love my dogs and would never harm them in any way but there are dogs who need to be handled firmly or they would just take over and be dangerous.

The way you all go on its as if every dog he sees and has on his shows are all subjected to harsh treatment, elcetric collars and he strangles them all.
he dosent and you can see he has affection for the dogs sometimes he does not show it but there are cases that he cant as then the dog would know he was soft and probably would act the way the do with the owners and ignore him .

As CM says he REHABILITATES DOGS and TRAINS OWNERS.
He does a lot of good and helps lots of owners who are at their wits end
He is famous because he is on TV , well GOOD for him Give the man a break !!

Showering your dog with love and attention and treating it like a human is all fair enough but sometimes that is just not enough.

Most of the dogs at our dog class who have problems have owners who are too soft and dont want to be bad to their dogs, so never use a firm voice with them or give them a check with the lead. Dosent work like that though does it ?:nonod:

What about old Babs Woodhouse ? she was as strict as they came, she was only famous through TV and she did not get as much stick as poor old Ceasar.

As I say each to their own opinions and if you all feel so strongly about his bad methods, go to one of his UK shows and tell him.

Or are you all still going to sit and watch his programmes and try and find faults, then come on here and start downing him all because a post was put on here by a fan saying that he was looking for dogs for his shows ??? 
Th poster did not want a slag CM thread she just wanted to tell people that they had the chance to let CM see their dogs if they had a problem with them.

Sorry for ranting but am fed up with the same old ,same old going on about Ceasar.
Dont want to fall out with any one here but let the CM fans have a thread that they can talk to each other about him without all the slagging, Please:smile5:
Yes as you can see I am a fan


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> You too huh? I thought I needed to go to the opticians again!
> 
> Sooooooo...if I shout "BANG!" and then electrocute my dog with one of those damned awful collars or finger jabbed them in the neck, they will go all submissive? But if I said "BANG!" and then gave them a biscuit or started a game, they would get all excited!


*sorry but i find this all so funny.talk about over the top. people use tens machines but i dont hear anyone saying they are barbaric(sp).CM has use the shock thing on his arm to show its not painful..And just out of interest how many of you have seen the game you can buy for kids they give you an electric shock? *


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *To say he KICKS dogs is realy unfair, does he tap them with his foot yes he does.You and i both have or had gsd and noway would mine have taken such a thing as a KICK.*


Ok lets create a different scenario. 
I can nudge my dog with my foot and he doesn't react, he just says: "ermmm....... Sorry mum, I'll move a few inches away from you, if that's what you want?"

I can sat PSSST to him and he gets all excited and barks.

I could _kick_ him and he would say:
"WTF was that for???????????????? You're out of order!" No different if you suddenly punched your best friend on the arm.

So let's just suppose someone who is training dogs gets the dog to associate the nudge, kick and PSSST with an electric shock. You'd get a whole different reaction, from ANY dog.

Either CM is MAGIC or he's doing something extra on top, out of sight, that we don't do.... Big clue here.... it ain't the paranormal.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I think you see what you want to see and thats it. Theres just no getting through to some people lol . I just gave Barney a big massive CM kick - he was sleeping .. he twitched . Do you want the SSPCA's number to report me for animal cruelty ? & as for the St.Bernard who he brutally chocked up the stairs - do any of you own a dog of that size ? Nicole xx


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm not going to fund his career. He has more than enough followers to do that for him.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I do use a Tens machine, nearly every morning in fact. Like a silly mare, I went and placed a pad on my neck once as it was stiff and painful (old car accident injury) I wish I hadn't! I started it off on low and nearly rattled my brain out of my head! 

So he is ok to use shock collars and make dogs scream then? Okay........... :huh:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I think you see what you want to see and thats it. Theres just no getting through to some people lol . I just gave Barney a big massive CM kick - he was sleeping .. he twitched . Do you want the SSPCA's number to report me for animal cruelty ? & as for the St.Bernard who he brutally chocked up the stairs - do any of you own a dog of that size ? Nicole xx


Yes actually I do  She's stubborn but I've never had to drag her anywhere nor would I dream of doing such a thing


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Yes actually I do  She's stubborn but I've never had to drag her anywhere nor would I dream of doing such a thing


i ditto that and i dont understand what size or weight has to do anything with having to drag and choke a dog :huh:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> I do use a Tens machine, nearly every morning in fact. Like a silly mare, I went and placed a pad on my neck once as it was stiff and painful (old car accident injury) I wish I hadn't! I started it off on low and nearly rattled my brain out of my head!
> 
> So he is ok to use shock collars and make dogs scream then? Okay........... :huh:


Cesar tells the owner its up to them what form of control they use . If the owner wants an electric collar or a prong collar then he respects their wishes, but educates them on how to use them correctly. Maybe i'm wrong :blush: xx


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Ok lets create a different scenario.
> I can nudge my dog with my foot and he doesn't react, he just says: "ermmm....... Sorry mum, I'll move a few inches away from you, if that's what you want?"
> 
> I can sat PSSST to him and he gets all excited and barks.
> ...


*Well if its a dog trainer you want then CM isnt your guy. He doesn't train dogs.*


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> i ditto that and i dont understand what size or weight has to do anything with having to drag and choke a dog :huh:


tbh I think I'd end up on my arse. She's due for another weigh in but she weighs more than Sky who is around 5 stone so err, yeah 6 months old that's all she is 

On a more serious note I've never had to do such a thing to her. She's very stubborn and when she doesn't want to move she won't but a bit of coaxing gets her bum into gear (so does a smelly treat!).


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well if its a dog trainer you want then CM isnt your guy. He doesn't train dogs.*


So what is it, in your estimation, he does....?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Cesar tells the owner its up to them what form of control they use . If the owner wants an electric collar or a prong collar then he respects their wishes, but educates them on how to use them correctly. Maybe i'm wrong :blush: xx


the behaviorists and trainers i know would give them a good talking to and educate them why they SHOULDNT be used and they certainly would not respect a wish which is WRONG in rehabilitating a dog just because the owner thinks using those devices is a good thing :nonod:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Cesar tells the owner its up to them what form of control they use . If the owner wants an electric collar or a prong collar then he respects their wishes, but educates them on how to use them correctly. Maybe i'm wrong :blush: xx


If I came across an owner who wanted to choke, spike or shock their dog then I would gently but firmly re-educate them or they would have to find another trainer who would allow them to use cruelty. Never had to use such negative devices to 'train' or rehab a dog yet, not even the people or dog aggressive ones!hmy:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> So what is it, in your estimation, he does....?


Isn't he meant to rehabillitate (sp?)? But tbh I don't see the difference between that and a trainer/behaviourist. They all do the same thing.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Isn't he meant to rehabillitate (sp?)? But tbh I don't see the difference between that and a trainer/behaviourist. They all do the same thing.


To me, the two jobs should go hand in hand. But for TV, it dopesn't seem to be that way.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> I do use a Tens machine, nearly every morning in fact. Like a silly mare, I went and placed a pad on my neck once as it was stiff and painful (old car accident injury) I wish I hadn't! I started it off on low and nearly rattled my brain out of my head!
> 
> So he is ok to use shock collars and make dogs scream then? Okay........... :huh:


I have a poodle that comes in to my salon who screams like a human if she gets touched and I mean a wee pat !!hmy:

Some dogs are just like that it dosent mean to say the collar hurt him bad.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> So what is it, in your estimation, he does....?


*Now with respect if you don't know the answer to your own question you dont know much about CM.*


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

sequeena said:


> tbh I think I'd end up on my arse. She's due for another weigh in but she weighs more than Sky who is around 5 stone so err, yeah 6 months old that's all she is
> 
> On a more serious note I've never had to do such a thing to her. She's very stubborn and when she doesn't want to move she won't but a bit of coaxing gets her bum into gear (so does a smelly treat!).


I'm not trying to argue lol . Our newfie weighs around 11stone and isn't even two yet. He's the most stubborn dog around and if he doesn't want to do something, he does exactly what the St.Bernard did . He lies down. I tend to just leave him to have his hissy fight. But Cesar didn't drag/choke that dog - he coaxed it, gently for that size of dog and unless I'm mistaken he only had to get all the way up the stairs once before the dog was quite happy to go up again. I just don't think he's as bad as some people are making out lol.Nicole xx


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> So what is it, in your estimation, he does....?


As said at the beginning of every episode He REHABILITATES dogs and TRAINS People.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

people are not making out anything... people just discuss _factuall _ methods being shown on tv and _factuall_ reactions and behaviours of the real victims - the dogs ...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> people are not making out anything... people just discuss _factuall _ methods being shown on tv and _factuall_ reactions and behaviours of the real victims - the dogs ...


*So please tell me this, was the programe Pedigree Dogs Exposed full of cr*p or was what we all saw FACT?*


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I'm not trying to argue lol . Our newfie weighs around 11stone and isn't even two yet. He's the most stubborn dog around and if he doesn't want to do something, he does exactly what the St.Bernard did . He lies down. I tend to just leave him to have his hissy fight. But Cesar didn't drag/choke that dog - he coaxed it, gently for that size of dog and unless I'm mistaken he only had to get all the way up the stairs once before the dog was quite happy to go up again. I just don't think he's as bad as some people are making out lol.Nicole xx


lol I'm not trying to argue either  tbh there's no point in arguing over a subject like this one.

I just meant that I have a dog the same size, not far off the same weight and I've never felt the need to drag her to get her to where I want her to be. I've not seen this episode (tbh I don't watch him, I see clips in threads and on the net but he disturbs me too much) so can't comment on whether or not he pulled the bernard.

I think he could be great but needs to rethink the way he works.

On a random note I came across 3 deep red dogs today who looked exactly like newfies but they couldn't have been newfies surely??


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *So please tell me this, was the programe Pedigree Dogs Exposed full of cr*p or was what we all saw FACT?*


i didnt watch pde so cant comment on that... :huh:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Natik said:


> people are not making out anything... people just discuss _factuall _ methods being shown on tv and _factuall_ reactions and behaviours of the real victims - the dogs ...


Oh well . You lot have fun discussing your factual thingy majigs - a pot noodle is calling me lol! Just remember - we're all animal lovers here so we're all on the same side . Cesar Milans just some guy most of us will never meet properly. & I doubt he cares what any of us think either way lol - his bank balance doesn't suffer lol. xxx


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Oh well . You lot have fun discussing your factual thingy majigs - a pot noodle is calling me lol! Just remember - we're all animal lovers here so we're all on the same side .  Cesar Milans just some guy most of us will never meet properly. & I doubt he cares what any of us think either way lol - his bank balance doesn't suffer lol. xxx


lol, true 

i wished i had a pot noodle calling me too :crying: yummmy, enjoy!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I just watched a DVD : "Fighting Dominance in a Dog Whispering World" with Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar. JD's overwhelming message to positive dog trainers was - Don't fight with those who like to use aversives. They will NEVER agree. Just teach those who want to learn from an educated viewpoint................


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Natik said:


> lol, true
> 
> i wished i had a pot noodle calling me too :crying: yummmy, enjoy!


I would share - but Barney has suddenly awoken . He's currently drooling very sleepily  xx


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I went away for 2 hours this thread was on page 3 hmy:. I think the CM people are so brainwashed/in love with the guy they're never going to see the bad side and the people who hate him are so angry at his methods they're going to come across as a bit harsh. Buster just looks at me bemused when I say psst, hey on the other hand generally stops him without teaming it up with a choke collar, electric shock, poke in the neck, kick in the side. Just out of interest has anyone ever seen a dog kick another one in the side? It sounds like it comes straight from horse riding not dogs


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

EXCERPT from *dogsey* website - 
Dog Whisperer (Cesar Millan) ..are you a Fan?

page 1 of thread, * Dog Whisperer (Cesar Millan) ..are you a Fan? *


> re post # 8 - Posted @ 7:51 M 2-1-2010 by JoedeeUK:
> To get his shhhht noise right you have to use an e collar & time the shock to the shhhht then it will work.


page 2 of thread, 
Dog Whisperer (Cesar Millan) ..are you a Fan? - Page 2 
1st post - 


> re post #11 - Posted @ 8:05 today, by labradork:
> Do you think/know that is what he does? makes sense I guess.


page 2 of thread, bottom-most post - 


> re post #20 - Posted @ 8:52, 2-1-2010, by JoedeeUK:
> Yes it's part of the pre program "warm"up for the dog to get it conditioned to react to the Shhht. Seen footage of it when I was visiting friends in the US


hmmmmm...


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> lol I'm not trying to argue either  tbh there's no point in arguing over a subject like this one.
> 
> I just meant that I have a dog the same size, not far off the same weight and I've never felt the need to drag her to get her to where I want her to be. I've not seen this episode (tbh I don't watch him, I see clips in threads and on the net but he disturbs me too much) so can't comment on whether or not he pulled the bernard.
> 
> I think he could be great but needs to rethink the way he works.


Sequena you have just said that you only look at clips on the web etc so to be honest you are only seeing cases where he has to be a little more strict with the dogs. If you watched a few of his programmes you would perhaps see how his methods work and why he uses them also how he talks to the owners and tels them where they are going wrong

As for dragging dogs when they wont move ,that is not true he gives them a wee bit of resistance on the lead then lets it go slack and encourages the dog to move forward . Bit by bit they learn to overcome their fear of eg going up the stairs, walking on wooden floors. He does tell the owners that just pulling at the lead does not work so there is no dragging involved what so ever.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re sequeena -
> _ ...3 deep red dogs today who looked exactly like newfies... _


Newfies can be bronze, and if the light is right they look a deep rich red. 
what time was it? early AM? afternoon? 
low-sun / setting sun makes very warm tones. 
--- terry


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i know we humans have all a different view at things and judge things differently hence why different opinions are formed BUT strungling a dog until it collapses with an blue tongue due to lack of oxygene is hardly something to be called "little more strict" is it? ... or is my view on the world so different to others? :huh:


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> EXCERPT from *dogsey* website -
> Dog Whisperer (Cesar Millan) ..are you a Fan?
> 
> page 1 of thread, * Dog Whisperer (Cesar Millan) ..are you a Fan? *
> ...


My dogs listen to the shhhsht noise and ther was not a single electric collar in sight !  Depends on how they were trained I suppose


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lilacbabe said:


> Sequena you have just said that you only look at clips on the web etc so to be honest you are only seeing cases where he has to be a little more strict with the dogs. If you watched a few of his programmes you would perhaps see how his methods work and why he uses them also how he talks to the owners and tels them where they are going wrong
> 
> As for dragging dogs when they wont move ,that is not true he gives them a wee bit of resistance on the lead then lets it go slack and encourages the dog to move forward . Bit by bit they learn to overcome their fear of eg going up the stairs, walking on wooden floors. He does tell the owners that just pulling at the lead does not work so there is no dragging involved what so ever.


I've watched the majority of his episodes even where he deals with a newfie who wouldn't eat, he was dominant of course, or other dogs with very little issues. So dragging a cane corso who was terrified of the car into one by a prong collar was what?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> i know we humans have all a different view at things and judge things differently hence why different opinions are formed BUT strungling a dog until it collapses with an blue tongue due to lack of oxygene is hardly something to be called "little more strict" is it? ... or is my view on the world so different to others? :huh:


No it is also what others can see too, at least these people here!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Sequena you have just said that you only look at clips on the web etc so to be honest you are only seeing cases where he has to be a little more strict with the dogs. If you watched a few of his programmes you would perhaps see how his methods work and why he uses them also how he talks to the owners and tels them where they are going wrong
> 
> As for dragging dogs when they wont move ,that is not true he gives them a wee bit of resistance on the lead then lets it go slack and encourages the dog to move forward . Bit by bit they learn to overcome their fear of eg going up the stairs, walking on wooden floors. He does tell the owners that just pulling at the lead does not work so there is no dragging involved what so ever.


I'd rather not tbh I don't agree with anyone who resorts to e-collars, choke chains and strings a dog up by its neck. Not trying to get your hackles up but this is what I see and I don't want to see anymore of it. I prefer praise reward methods :blush:

When Luna was a pup and had the usual 'omg you put a lead on me I ain't moving!!!!' technique I tempted her with toys and pieces of chicken. She responded quickly and within 15 minutes she was enjoying her first ever walk


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Did I imagine this or does anyone remember the episode with the pink maltese? She was sort of unforgettable. The owner talks about being taught to train her by pinning her down aka alpha rolling. Cesar says dogs don't alpha roll each other in the wild it's all done by biting...


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> i know we humans have all a different view at things and judge things differently hence why different opinions are formed BUT strungling a dog until it collapses with an blue tongue due to lack of oxygene is hardly something to be called "little more strict" is it? ... or is my view on the world so different to others? :huh:


I have watched that clip and the dog does not collapse with a blue toungue if you see where the collar is placed it would not cut of the air supply yes it does I admit look a bit severe but it needed to be stopped as it was being vicious , what would you have done ??


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

On a different note !
This pot noodle is amazing 
x


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I've watched every episide I was able to, and have 2 of his books. I used to be a CM fan. But my dogs have taught me that aversives just don't work in the long term. But hey, I'm not fighting with anyone........


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I've watched every episide I was able to, and have 2 of his books. I used to be a CM fan. But my dogs have taught me that aversives just don't work in the long term. But hey, I'm not fighting with anyone........


Interesting! Someone who has been on both sides of the argument


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Firstly the noise he makes could be anything, that the dog has been tuned into.

I.e. Dog Training Discs work in the same way. I would think that he has spent some time with the dogs beforehand to 'tune' them in to this sound, as it is unlikely to work in isolation.

As for trainers and behaviourists being the same, there are but not, if you see what I mean....

i.e. a trainer will train dogs to do a certain thing, if you want a dog to perform an action, whatever it is, I can find a way around to get the behaviour on cue, using whatever method may be appropriate for that dog at the time. When training for a problem, it obviously helps to have knowledge of dog behaviour, the two go hand in hand. Personally I have a lot of interest in behaviour, but I have no formal ualification - but then a lot of the problems that you need to work on are the same. In the case of serious agression, then a trainer would be wise to go cautiously, depending on their knowledge.

A trained behaviourist, will look at the problem that a dog has and will then decide what course of training or action can be taken to solve that problem - however, they will also have a broader knowledge of dog behaviour and psychology on a more formal basis (well you would hope so) and how other factors can effect the outcome i.e. medications etc., of course a trainer would be aware of these too, but maybe not in the same context as a behaviourist. A behaviourist also has to have a knowledge of training, but may not have 'hands on' training experience.

I interviewed someone for a job where I worked, for the position of dog trainer, on paper she had all the credentials you would expect, she had done the relvant courses (at Southampton Uni.), when asked how she would teach a dog to do so and so, she could give me off pat the process. However, when handed a dog and asked to spend a short time with it and given several items at her disposal (toys treats etc.), from which to use if appropriate and then instructed to show how she would walk this dog and teach it to not pull, she couldn't even hold the lead effectively. Turned out she hadn't trained her own dog and had really limited hands on experience.

I know for a fact that she is working as a behaviour consultant - all the right credentials, but not a trainer!

So don't think trainer and behaviourist are the same!

Kate


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I'd rather not tbh I don't agree with anyone who resorts to e-collars, choke chains and strings a dog up by its neck. Not trying to get your hackles up but this is what I see and I don't want to see anymore of it. I prefer praise reward methods :blush:
> 
> When Luna was a pup and had the usual 'omg you put a lead on me I ain't moving!!!!' technique I tempted her with toys and pieces of chicken. She responded quickly and within 15 minutes she was enjoying her first ever walk


Ceasar does this too encourages with treats , as I said you have only watched clips of electric collars etc but they are not used on all the dogs hardly any infact. Every time someone comments on the use of them and I go in to the clip to have a look it is allways the same clip . If he used these type of collars on more dogs there would bee lots more clips featuring different dogs.

Go on have a wee night in with a glass of wine and watch some of his shows and then tell us what you think


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> I have watched that clip and the dog does not collapse with a blue toungue if you see where the collar is placed it would not cut of the air supply yes it does I admit look a bit severe but it needed to be stopped as it was being vicious , what would you have done ??


it wasnt a collar he used, he used a normal lead .... as a slip lead.

and it wasnt vicious, it was fighting for his life :nonod:

It was placed on the dogs neck, the position as such is not important as any pressure from an lead used in such a way on any part of the neck will cause blockage of air supply.... :nonod:

i wouldnt even get myself in such a situation where the dogs only way would be to respond with a bite :nonod: hence why i cant answer u ur question!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Interesting! Someone who has been on both sides of the argument


i used to like him too... that was before i got my dogs and where i knew hardly anything about dog behaviour


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Ceasar does this too encourages with treats , as I said you have only watched clips of electric collars etc but they are not used on all the dogs hardly any infact. Every time someone comments on the use of them and I go in to the clip to have a look it is allways the same clip . If he used these type of collars on more dogs there would bee lots more clips featuring different dogs.
> 
> Go on have a wee night in with a glass of wine and watch some of his shows and then tell us what you think


Ok I'll take you up on that if I can find any episodes but why does he need to resort to these sorts of training tools in the first place even if they're in the minority? Any trainer worth his salt wouldn't have to resort to such a thing. That's what confuses me. I've had people he's all lovey dovey with the dogs and they dote on him yet all I'm seeing are scared dogs that are being shocked/kicked/strung up


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> i used to like him too... that was before i got my dogs and where i knew hardly anything about dog behaviour


What was the turning point for you?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

There was one where a pit/pointer mix was pretty aggressive when anyone came to the door and as they lived in apartments that wasn't good. He kicked the dog, poked it in the neck, collar correction etc. None of those worked so he finally went to treats. Waved a bit of cheese in front of the dog and it didn't care who was out there behaviour almost completely gone. He took it away got it to sit and then gave it the treat. But he still insists his methods are better. It's the one where about 4 people in one apartment building called him in


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> There was one where a pit/pointer mix was pretty aggressive when anyone came to the door and as they lived in apartments that wasn't good. He kicked the dog, poked it in the neck, collar correction etc. None of those worked so he finally went to treats. Waved a bit of cheese in front of the dog and it didn't care who was out there behaviour almost completely gone. He took it away got it to sit and then gave it the treat. But he still insists his methods are better. It's the one where about 4 people in one apartment building called him in


LOL Nicky if you find a link please pass it on I think I need to watch it.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Surely one of you can or know of someone with a dog who would qualify and then challenge Millan on his know-nothing ideas.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't know it was from a few years ago there might be a video on the nat geo wild site. The dog was called Rune


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

sequeena said:


> What was the turning point for you?


I know you weren't asking me, but I'll reply anyway lol. I have trained dogs for a million years and done very well, particularly in agility. When I first saw CM, I though 'hey, he trains the way I do!' and he became my hero. However, the more dogs I got, the more I realised that hurting or frightening a dog does not have the same long lasting effects as positive training does. I am still not 100% positive (will say the odd "ack" to stop a dog in its tracks) but the more I educate myself on the way canines learn, the more I believe he has got it wrong. So, in answer to that question, I guess in my case it was more of a gradual 'aaaaaahhhhh' than a sudden lightbulb moment.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> it wasnt a collar he used, he used a normal lead .... as a slip lead.
> 
> and it wasnt vicious, it was fighting for his life :nonod:
> 
> ...


I wouldnt say it was fighting for its life it was having a tantrum as it didnt like being told what to do. I have dogs take tantrums when being secured by my lose grooming noose . The dog had to be stopped as it had a tendancy to lash out and attack people this could have had been a child telling it to do something it didnt want to . 
If I had a dog that was biting me like that I think I would do anything to stop it to tell you the truth, sometimes you have to be harsh for safetys sake.

The thing is not everyone sees things the same as everyone else , what may be cruel to one person may not be to another. It dose not mean that person is a cruel person if you can understand that


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I know you weren't asking me, but I'll reply anyway lol. I have trained dogs for a million years and done very well, particularly in agility. When I first saw CM, I though 'hey, he trains the way I do!' and he became my hero. However, the more dogs I got, the more I realised that hurting or frightening a dog does not have the same long lasting effects as positive training does. I am still not 100% positive (will say the odd "ack" to stop a dog in its tracks) but the more I educate myself on the way canines learn, the more I believe he has got it wrong. So, in answer to that question, I guess in my case it was more of a gradual 'aaaaaahhhhh' than a sudden lightbulb moment.


Thanks for answering 

I guess you could say I'm not 100% positive. Sky tried to scale a wall the other day that had a 30-40ft drop on the other side and I shouted 'GET DOWN!!' and she did (thank god!!). I will also give the odd 'no' or yelp if one of them starts to get a bit rough. I think the e collar, prong collars etc are quick fixes. The halti headcollar I use on Sky is a quick fix but I am also training her to heel so that she won't have to wear it all the time. That's what I think CM is, a quick fix.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> What was the turning point for you?


i really was like the others ... i simply have only seen the results and didnt see the abuse and didnt think the dogs body language was anything to be concerned about...

I met good behaviorists and trainers and i learned hell alot of them about dog body language and dog behaviour. 
They deal with real aggressive dogs, ones who are really going to be pts if not turned around and i have followed those dogs way of rehabilitation and i have seen slow but real improvement and the dogs ended up being waggly tail happy dogs and not once they had to cower down or feel threatend in any way and no need for using cruel devices whatsoever.

I started comparing what they do with what cesar does and how their dogs react and how cesars dogs react and the difference is huuuge! and the result even bigger and long lasting!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> I wouldnt say it was fighting for its life it was having a tantrum as it didnt like being told what to do. I have dogs take tantrums when being secured by my lose grooming noose . The dog had to be stopped as it had a tendancy to lash out and attack people this could have had been a child telling it to do something it didnt want to .
> If I had a dog that was biting me like that I think I would do anything to stop it to tell you the truth, sometimes you have to be harsh for safetys sake.
> 
> The thing is not everyone sees things the same as everyone else , what may be cruel to one person may not be to another. It dose not mean that person is a cruel person if you can understand that


no, i dont understand that... cruel is cruel :huh:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The turning point for me was when someone told me to watch it with the sound off. The difference when you can't hear him prattling on is scary the body language is awful. The person then pointed me towards an it's me or the dog episode where she delt with an aggressive dog. There were no dramatic battles for dominance, no injuries on either side and the dog at the end was looking up at her eagerly waiting to see what would happen next. I never looked back


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks Natik that was really interesting to read!

I suppose none of us will really know how it is unless we are there for every second he trains a dog, on and off the camera.

But I certainly don't like his methods.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> The turning point for me was when someone told me to watch it with the sound off. The difference when you can't hear him prattling on is scary the body language is awful. The person then pointed me towards an it's me or the dog episode where she delt with an aggressive dog. There were no dramatic battles for dominance, no injuries on either side and the dog at the end was looking up at her eagerly waiting to see what would happen next. I never looked back


Those 2 are totally opposite on the training scale and Victoria never ceases to amazes me with her simple yet effective methods.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> no, i dont understand that... cruel is cruel :huh:


But as I said one prsons definition of cruel is not the same as another persons.

For example do you believe it is wrong to give a child a smack on the behind if it had done something wrong ??

I have smacked when my children were small and when I mean smacked I dont mean with brute force as I am no child abuser, you may have a different oppinion on this but it dose not make me cruel or abusive towards children. I just had a diferent way of repremanding my children ( not that they got a lot of smacks I may add )

Oh lordy hop I havent opned a new can of worms on this one !!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

She is amazing and her methods are so much better. They're just not as dramatic as CMs I guess so people don't like her as much


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now with respect if you don't know the answer to your own question you dont know much about CM.*


That's interesting, Janice
I do know hon, have done a great deal of research (funnily enough) and funnily enough the more I know the less, I like.

This chap has the Dogs Trust, RSPCA, APBT, APBC, American Humane Association and many other worldwide organisations against him & his methods he is evenc banned in a few countries and you _still_ think he's the bees knees... Sorry hon... we'll have to agree to disagree here. I guess you like shock collars, and stuff. There will always be a few people who like the adversive methods and think it's cool.

It's ok... Each to his own as long as people clearly state where they are... if you're one of them then I know where you stand.

It's just that you haven't ever _yet_ come out and said you _agree_ with using shock collars and the other methods as he uses, so I (and others) aren't sure. TBH from your posts, most people think you only like him for his dazzling smile and good looks.... is that the way to choose how to treat your dog? Do you want people to judge you for your liking for a smiling face with nice teeth, or are you going to put your money where those teeth are and tell us how you think he could benefit your own dogs or anyone else's, through the TV screen and across from the pond! Cos that's how you are coming across!

Lots of us who deal with DOGS as a job... that means training, behaviour, rescue, red-zone dogs (Ohhhh yes we have them too!), day-in-day-out _IN THE UK_ have stated _our_ opinion based on a _lot_ of experience, so why not just _tell_ us *your* experience instead of posting how much you love him every time the subject crops up and having his pic as your avatar?

Not meant as a challenge,Janice - just a gentle enquiry, but do share your experiences with rescues and aggressive and difficult dogs....


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> She is amazing and her methods are so much better. They're just not as dramatic as CMs I guess so people don't like her as much


I'm not sure. I think his dazzling white teeth are the reason a lot of people like him lol 

lmao lilacbabe I see what you're getting at and no you've not opened another can of worms


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

wow i wasnt awarer that there was such a large controversy over cesar. ive been a fan of dog whisperer for a long time, and only in the past month have we as a family been cosidering adopting a dog.

from the shows i have seen he doesnt do anything to hurt the dogs, when he appears to hit the dogs with his hand he is really just touching them, he does it to the owner too so they know what it feels like.

what am i missing? why are there opinions that he is cruel and should be locked up?
i thought he was such a good guy, this is very dissapointing


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> EXCERPT from *dogsey* website -
> Dog Whisperer (Cesar Millan) ..are you a Fan?
> 
> page 1 of thread, * Dog Whisperer (Cesar Millan) ..are you a Fan? *
> ...


I think it's a no-brainer, really.

It goes without saying that SOME dogs will find certain sounds unpleasant. Some will naturally dislike the "pssht" noise - some won't. My dogs are completely unmoved by it, other than a mild "Sorry, what?" ear prick.

However, one of my dogs LOATHES it if I shake a bottle of milkshake - and no, I've never used a rattle bottle on her. She just doesn't like it. She also hates the hoover, whereas my other dog isn't fussed.

Me, I don't mind nails on a blackboard - but rub two bits of polystyrene together and I run for the hills.

For EVERY SINGLE DOG I've ever seen Cesar use it on to react SO strongly to the "pssht" noise, it is obvious to anyone that he has already paired the sound with a fairly strong aversive. Has anyone ever seen him go "pssht" and the dog not react? I highly doubt it, somehow


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

kello82 said:


> wow i wasnt awarer that there was such a large controversy over cesar. ive been a fan of dog whisperer for a long time, and only in the past month have we as a family been cosidering adopting a dog.
> 
> from the shows i have seen he doesnt do anything to hurt the dogs, when he appears to hit the dogs with his hand he is really just touching them, he does it to the owner too so they know what it feels like.
> 
> ...


There will always be people for and against CM. It's what happens when there are different methods of training dogs.

I'm sure Natik, MM and Nicky will point you in the direction of a lot of clips to watch, I think there are already some on this thread.

Here's a good link someone gave me that you might like to read; Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i did see an epi this afternoon where he used a choke chain, and i was suprised at that.
i think it was one of the very first epi's though, cause his teeth werent fixed yet lol

i have nbever noticed a choke chain beofre this


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

He uses a choke chain a lot but prong collars are his favourite.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> But as I said one prsons definition of cruel is not the same as another persons.
> 
> For example do you believe it is wrong to give a child a smack on the behind if it had done something wrong ??
> 
> ...


there is only one definition of cruel and thats" Disposed to inflict pain or suffering. Causing suffering; painful."

Ur own individuall made up definiton is irrelevant really.

We cant make up individuall definitions for different words because our own definiton suit us and our actions better


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

kello82 said:


> i did see an epi this afternoon where he used a choke chain, and i was suprised at that.
> i think it was one of the very first epi's though, cause his teeth werent fixed yet lol
> 
> i have nbever noticed a choke chain beofre this


lmfao! He reminds me of Richard Hammond with those teeth  <--- much like that smiley!! :laugh:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

kello82 said:


> i did see an epi this afternoon where he used a choke chain, and i was suprised at that.
> i think it was one of the very first epi's though, cause his teeth werent fixed yet lol
> 
> i have nbever noticed a choke chain beofre this


lol must have been an old epi then

some chains which look like chocke chains are infact prong collars (hard to recognize sometimes with the camera movement) ... i needed to pause the programm several times to have a closer look ....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re kello
> _ ...when he appears to hit the dogs with his hand * he is really just touching them,* he does it to the owner too so they know what it feels like.
> 
> what am i missing? (snip) i thought he was such a good guy, this is very disappointing... _


turn the sound off, and just watch the DOGS - what he is doing, yes, but primarily *watch* how the dogs react - 
their ears, eyes, tails, body positions, facial expressions... 
and then U will know what U were missing. the opinions that count are the dogs - as they are the targets of his handling 
(remember, he does not TRAIN...  )

all my best, 
--- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> some chains which look like chocke chains are infact prong collars (hard to recognize sometimes with the camera movement) ... i needed to pause the programm several times to have a closer look ....


I recognise a prong collar by the links in the chain.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> I recognise a prong collar by the links in the chain.


the one in the first pic can be quite easily confused with a choke chain (is that a choke chain in the first pic??? lol) ... and then when u have a programe with alot of movement and action then its even harder to recognize one, especially when the dog is long haired too i find..


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> the one in the first pic can be quite easily confused with a choke chain (is that a choke chain in the first pic??? lol) ... and then when u have a programe with alot of movement and action then its even harder to recognize one, especially when the dog is long haired too i find..


Yeah I've had that problem a few times pmsl!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Yeah I've had that problem a few times pmsl!


im getting tired pmsl


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> im getting tired pmsl


In general or of this topic? :wink:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> In general or of this topic? :wink:


in general  ... i think its time for my bed haha


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> in general  ... i think its time for my bed haha


Me too actually, I have to tackle my mum's garden tomorrow. Joys  Night everyone!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Me too actually, I have to tackle my mum's garden tomorrow. Joys  Night everyone!


night night !


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> there is only one definition of cruel and thats" Disposed to inflict pain or suffering. Causing suffering; painful."
> 
> Ur own individuall made up definiton is irrelevant really.
> 
> We cant make up individuall definitions for different words because our own definiton suit us and our actions better


A smack can be classed as cruel in some peoples eyes and putting away in a room and being grounded is cruel in anothers.
So no my defnition is not irrelevant  I have heard many a person say oh you are cruel when no pain or suffering has been caused ie teasing someone for a joke !!

Your statement is really is just a quote from a dictionary! words can have a variety of different meanings to each individual.

That is why some people class ceasar as cruel and some do not .


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> A smack can be classed as cruel in some peoples eyes and putting away in a room and being grounded is cruel in anothers.
> So no my defnition is not irrelevant  I have heard many a person say oh you are cruel when no pain or suffering has been caused ie teasing someone for a joke !!
> 
> Your statement is really is just a quote from a dictionary! words can have a variety of different meanings to each individual.
> ...


ok... :wink:


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Night everyone 
what will we have a wee debate about tomorrow Eh!
That is if you are not to tired out with the gardening LOL

Suggestions for tomorrow to be posted by 6pm LOL


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Night everyone
> what will we have a wee debate about tomorrow Eh!
> That is if you are not to tired out with the gardening LOL
> 
> Suggestions for tomorrow to be posted by 6pm LOL


Clearly we should move onto the definition of cruelty pmsl


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

see, the thing is though, when dogs are behaving in a way that upsets dogs around them, those dogs try and correct him by nipping or pinning him down. ive seen that before with no human influence at all. we dont know for sure if thats what cesar is doing but it seems that is his way of training, to observe how behaviors are corrected in the dog world by other dogs, and then to emulate them. a dog knows what a nip means, it does not know what "NO" means, it has to be taught.

i think thats what the controversey is right? whether or not it is humane to apply dog behaviors onto a dog such as pinning and "nipping"


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Dogs don't pin each other down like that. The guy who thought up dominance theory saw submissive wolves rolling over in front of the alpha on their own willingly and decided that the alpha was pinning them down.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Dogs don't pin each other down like that. The guy who thought up dominance theory saw submissive wolves rolling over in front of the alpha on their own willingly and decided that the alpha was pinning them down.


And we all know dogs aren't wolves.

...or do we


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Well dogs do naturally roll over and it is a very submissive behaviour that is in a lot of species. But yeah they're not domesticated wolves the however many 10 of 1000s of years of breeding them has made them very different. Otherwise all those pet wolves would suddenly behave like dogs do


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Well dogs do naturally roll over and it is a very submissive behaviour that is in a lot of species. But yeah they're not domesticated wolves the however many 10 of 1000s of years of breeding them has made them very different. Otherwise all those pet wolves would suddenly behave like dogs do


Exactly.

My dogs roll but my god should one pin the other they ballistic and heaven forbid I try the same thing!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The Canine Behavior Blog » August 18, How Would You Describe This Interaction?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The one on the ground is being submissive? Oh but look there's no paws on the neck pinning him/her down


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Looks to me as though the wolf is being submissive but the scene is not aggressive to me. It looks almost like play. When I roll Sky over she sticks her paws up at me whilst I'm rubbing her belly.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

YouTube - MOTHER MIN PIN TEACHING HER PUPPY SON THE ROPES

??


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> That's interesting, Janice
> I do know hon, have done a great deal of research (funnily enough) and funnily enough the more I know the less, I like.
> 
> This chap has the Dogs Trust, RSPCA, APBT, APBC, American Humane Association and many other worldwide organisations against him & his methods he is evenc banned in a few countries and you _still_ think he's the bees knees... Sorry hon... we'll have to agree to disagree here. I guess you like shock collars, and stuff. There will always be a few people who like the adversive methods and think it's cool.
> ...


*LMAO well its nice to know that people are not only judging CM but me too.How shallow can people be?can none of you see or understand, i joke about his smile and sexy looks,sure i think he's a good looking guy but even i KNOW i go over the top, its not giving a damn what others think of me or my oppions.Now to put my serious head on so there's no confusion.Do i agree with shock collars? to a point YES,do i agree with using choke chains YES,do i agree with prong collars YES....Now to explain,i DO NOT agree to any old tom dick or harry using these collars BUT IF what i have seen CM do with them is to be believed then they are fine by me.IN THE RIGHT HANDS.Now for all those that have judged me for having a laugh you can now judge me for what i think.*


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

We have four males right . Two neutered, two unneutered. Barney used to push Harley over and stand over him, almost like he was pinning him down. Now Harley, rolls over of his own accord when Barney gives him a look. I think Barney is dominant over his buddies sometimes - so do alot of other people. He likes to puff himself up, curl his tail all the way round and stand as tall as possible above them lol. He doesn't pin them down with the throat though. Barney is dominant over other males, but it isn't an issue for us. Nicole xx


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

kello82 said:


> see, the thing is though, when dogs are behaving in a way that upsets dogs around them, those dogs try and correct him by nipping or pinning him down. ive seen that before with no human influence at all. we dont know for sure if thats what cesar is doing but it seems that is his way of training, to observe how behaviors are corrected in the dog world by other dogs, and then to emulate them. a dog knows what a nip means, it does not know what "NO" means, it has to be taught.


The point is, a person isn't a dog. The dog knows the person isn't another dog. To suggest that a dog is going to see someone poking/pinching at their neck with their hand as another dog nipping them is ludicrous.



> i think thats what the controversey is right? whether or not it is humane to apply dog behaviors onto a dog such as pinning and "nipping"


No. Part of the controversy (backed up by YEARS of proper research) is whether a human being trying to apply dog behaviours onto a dog has any value whatsoever.

Most of the controversy revolves around the fact that CM uses extremely confrontational and often inhumane methods when kinder methods would work just as well and in most cases, BETTER, with longer term results.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It's odd how none of the top people in the dog training/behaviour fields have to use choke chains, prong collars, shock collars or other nasty aversives when dealing with canine problems? Hmm. Funny that. 

I would hope that all those reading this who have been wondering what all the fuss over CM is about, or who been on the fence about him are now chewing all this info over and that at least a few more dogs will be saved from these unkind and unfair methods of training.


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## Plabebob (Nov 30, 2009)

Personally I think people like Victoria Stillwell get equally good or better results & don't use any of the punishing methods that CM does. He's only on TV cause he's dramatic & gets good ratings, not for his results. The fact that they have to be deceptive about how he does it (I.e. the shock collar incident) & the fact that people have to sign to say they won't reveal anything just serves to condemn him in my eyes. 

No one has shown me anything that makes me think he's worthy of the praise he receives.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm not sure anymore lol. I've never been a 'worshipper' lol but I always thought he done right by the dogs .. hmmm . Anyway, I'd never use his techniques on my own dogs. Theres never been much need lol . So it doesn't really matter to me does it  Nicole xx


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## Stunning Selene (Feb 2, 2010)

You can please some of the people all of the time 
and all of the people some of the time. 
But you cannot please all of the people all of the time.

Incidentally I am great fan of Caesar.



JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but this thread was started about where CM was to be seen, why does evrything have to turn into a debate what he does?Lets keep it on track and for those who don't agree with CM ignore the thread.*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

For those who are pro-Cesar, I'm interested to know:

Have you ever read about/seen kinder methods used? For instance, ever read a book by someone like Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor etc?

If so, why would you still be in favour of CM's methods when people such as those mentioned above are PROPER behaviourists and have proved time and again that humane methods work as well, if not better, and have longer lasting results?

Cesar by his own admission has never studied dog behaviour/ethology properly and scientifically. Why do people still insist HE is right and the more knowledgeable, qualified behaviourists are wrong?

Given that sooooo many animal welfare and training organisations openly condemn his methods, are his fans saying that he knows more than they do?

It boggles the mind. He's like a cult.*



*You could probably replace the "l" with an "n" there


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> For those who are pro-Cesar, I'm interested to know:
> 
> Have you ever read about/seen kinder methods used? For instance, ever read a book by someone like Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor etc?
> 
> ...


*And what metality is that? I'll ask you this question as polite as i can. Why is it the people that dont like CM just agree to disagree? This subject comes up time and time again.And for those out there that think people like myself (a CM) can't think for ourselves you are so wrong.
*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> It boggles the mind. He's like a cult.*
> 
> *You could probably replace the "l" with an "n" there


Several of us have a theory that it is something to do with this idea - 
Does the Milgram Experiment Explain Cesar Millanâ€™s Influence? | DogLoversDigest.com

He is hardly a role model for modern day dog training but as with most self styled 'Gurus' he will always have his following of suggestible people who don't really want to know about any other way of doing things because that is too much like hard work and effort.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Several of us have a theory that it is something to do with this idea -
> Does the Milgram Experiment Explain Cesar Millanâs Influence? | DogLoversDigest.com
> 
> He is hardly a role model for modern day dog training but as with most self styled 'Gurus' he will always have his follwoing of suggestible people who don't really want to know about any other way of doing things because that is too much like hard work and effort.


Yes, I read the comparison to the Milgram experiment and it's very likely true in the most part. Just still can't get my head round how people still can't see past the teeth though. It's depressing


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *And what metality is that? I'll ask you this question as polite as i can. Why is it the people that dont like CM just agree to disagree? This subject comes up time and time again.And for those out there that think people like myself (a CM) can't think for ourselves you are so wrong.
> *


Because the "each to their own" and "if it works it's OK" argument only goes so far. Sometimes, something is just WRONG.

This is why we have laws, you see. Otherwise we would live in a world where anyone could do anything, at any time.

Someone holds their child's hand over a hot flame... oh that's OK - I caught him/her playing with matches so I'm teaching him/her not to. Would you "agree to disagree" with that person?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yes, I read the comparison to the Milgram experiment and it's very likely true in the most part. Just still can't get my head round how people still can't see past the teeth though. It's depressing


*Why are his teeth now an issue?and why get depressed about something you could easily ignore?*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Why are his teeth now an issue?and why get depressed about something you could easily ignore?*


I find it extremely depressing that despite all the EVIDENCE pointing to kinder methods being just as effective, there are probably countless dogs all over the world being subjected to Cesar's "way"


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> I find it extremely depressing that despite all the EVIDENCE pointing to kinder methods being just as effective, there are probably countless dogs all over the world being subjected to Cesar's "way"


Ditto, same here. 

Dogs cannot voice their opinions on this travesty, that's why we will continue to be thorns in CM's side.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Ditto, same here.
> 
> Dogs cannot voice their opinions on this travesty, that's why we will continue to be thorns in CM's side.


*Have you written to him then?*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Ditto, same here.
> 
> Dogs cannot voice their opinions on this travesty, that's why we will continue to be thorns in CM's side.


they voice their opinions alright (biting back, cowering and running off in fear), but human tends to ignore all that as the quick fix is much more of importance to them then their dogs well being :nonod:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i would just plead to anyone who supports cesar to find a proper behaviorist and follow their kind ways of REAL rehabilitation of an dog in need of help. And no, it wont be a 30 mins visit, it would take weeks and months.

The pro cesar people seem to be very one sided and refuse to want to see the other and kinder way for some reason so they obviously have nothing to compare his ways to... 

Because its truly beyond me why someone would be aware of the 2 sides and choose the inhumane one against the kinder and more effective and less dangerous way... but maybe the time factor and the "i want it fixed TODAY" mentality plays a big part in this...


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Natik said:


> they voice their opinions alright (biting back, cowering and running off in fear), but human tends to ignore all that as the quick fix is much more of importance to them then their dogs well being :nonod:


I recently saw a bloke (thuggish, mouth-breathing type) pinning a young Staffie down at the side of the road. Its "crime" - pulling on the lead, particularly toward my dog as we passed going in the other direction 

Thing is, I think Cesar's methods are more likely to appeal to the hard of thinking because a) They seem quicker and b) They are so simplistic. As far as I've seen, CM attributes 99% of dog problems as "dominance" and that's nice and easy for people to remember.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> Because its truly beyond me why someone would be aware of the 2 sides and choose the inhumane one against the kinder and more effective and less dangerous way... but maybe the time factor and the "i want it fixed TODAY" mentality plays a big part in this...


Exactly what baffles me. Genuinely. Why is it not simple?

Dog has problem. Two ways to deal with problem. Humane way vs inhumane way.

Why would ANY person claiming to love animals choose the inhumane way as better? 

ETA - and even if the inhumane way fixes it TODAY, it won't necessarily stay fixed tomorrow. Or in different circumstances. Of if you're not there. Cesar's methods do not, for the most part, change the dog's emotional reactions to things.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I cannot for the life of me see how all of those against CM feel the NEED to exagerate (sp) using terms such as,choking a dog, kicking a dog ect ect.
Going back to likening it to smacking a child, there's a big difference between smacking and hitting a child.The same with CM,he doesn't kick dogs he taps them. *


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I cannot for the life of me see how all of those against CM feel the NEED to exagerate (sp) using terms such as,choking a dog, kicking a dog ect ect.
> Going back to likening it to smacking a child, there's a big difference between smacking and hitting a child.The same with CM,he doesn't kick dogs he taps them. *


what term should we use for hanging a dog on its lead until it collapses due to the lack of oxygene then janice? :huh: maybe u could fill us in :wink:


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I cannot for the life of me see how all of those against CM feel the NEED to exagerate (sp) using terms such as,choking a dog, kicking a dog ect ect.
> Going back to likening it to smacking a child, there's a big difference between smacking and hitting a child.The same with CM,he doesn't kick dogs he taps them. *


Smacking is hitting, however you dress it up. A heel touch strong enough to cause a dog to react is a kick. Cutting off a dog's AIR SUPPLY is choking it for god's sake!

Just shows how Cesar manages to brainwash his devotees with flowery language


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

I agree with Janice. There is a big difference between an smack and a hit, a tap and a kick. OH and im not brainwashed just realistic


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Hmm.... Cesar Millan says hi smethods are humane and don't hurt the dog, the British Vetrinary Association, The Blue Cross, RSPCA, DOgs Trust, American Humane Society, amongst others, say they _are_ inhumane and the AHS feel so strongly about that they feel the need to attend filming for his shows and record 'incidents'. Why is that?! Because an organisation concerned soley with animal welfare has nothing better to do?!

And yet people still make excuses as to why all of those organisations are wrong, and what CM says is true. The mind boggles...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Natik said:



what term should we use for hanging a dog on its lead until it collapses due to the lack of oxygene then janice? :huh: maybe u could fill us in :wink:

Click to expand...

i've seen the video that you are talking about and i don't agree with what you see.



Colliepoodle said:



Smacking is hitting, however you dress it up. A heel touch strong enough to cause a dog to react is a kick. Cutting off a dog's AIR SUPPLY is choking it for god's sake!

Just shows how Cesar manages to brainwash his devotees with flowery language 

Click to expand...



I'm not trying to dress ANYTHING up, tell me you wouldn't prefer a slap to a punch and please dont treat me like some halfwit that can't make up their own mind.I at least try and show respect in my replies.[/C*OLOR]


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> I agree with Janice. There is a big difference between an smack and a hit, a tap and a kick. OH and im not brainwashed just realistic


Explain the difference between a smack and a hit.

A smack, to me, is with an open hand. A punch would be with a closed hand. They are both HITTING. Both intended to cause pain, otherwise what's the point??


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

jackson said:


> Hmm.... Cesar Millan says hi smethods are humane and don't hurt the dog, the British Vetrinary Association, The Blue Cross, RSPCA, DOgs Trust, American Humane Society, amongst others, say they _are_ inhumane and the AHS feel so strongly about that they feel the need to attend filming for his shows and record 'incidents'. Why is that?! Because an organisation concerned soley with animal welfare has nothing better to do?!
> 
> And yet people still make excuses as to why all of those organisations are wrong, and what CM says is true. The mind boggles...


Yep. Clearly all these animal welfare organisations are jealous of Cesar's success. Or else they just don't understand animals. That'll be it


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jackson said:


> Hmm.... Cesar Millan says hi smethods are humane and don't hurt the dog, the British Vetrinary Association, The Blue Cross, RSPCA, DOgs Trust, American Humane Society, amongst others, say they _are_ inhumane and the AHS feel so strongly about that they feel the need to attend filming for his shows and record 'incidents'. Why is that?! Because an organisation concerned soley with animal welfare has nothing better to do?!
> 
> And yet people still make excuses as to why all of those organisations are wrong, and what CM says is true. The mind boggles...


*IF all these people think he is so cruel then why allow him to carry on? Are they not then hypocrites?*


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> I agree with Janice. There is a big difference between an smack and a hit, a tap and a kick. OH and im not brainwashed just realistic


There is a difference, I agree. However, we already know that CM used a shock collar on one dog, but concealed that fact from the television watching audience. He also kept it to himself that the dog then bit th eowner whilst the shock collar was in use. A dog that chases cats to a dog which bit it's owner... not hard to work out which is worse... If he really felt it was fine to use the shock collar, why hide the fact?

Also, whether you call it hanging or not, lifting a dog up by it's lead and collar for however long will restrict the dogs breathing and I hardly think doing that to a do that is struggling because it is _scared_ of the floor surface it is on is necessary or humane, is it?!

CM's techniques for 'curing' frightened dogs are known as 'flooding', he forces them to 'face their fears' and usully applies some unpleasant for the dog stimulus when the dog, which is scared, reacts to that. It's abit like me being afraid of spiders. If I was in a room full of them, I'd be petrified and I'd probably scream. If someone punched me in the face every time I screamed, I am probably clever enough to eventually stop screaming. I'd still be scared of the spiders though, regardless of no longer reacting to them, I'm just more scared of being punched in the face.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Explain the difference between a smack and a hit.
> 
> A smack, to me, is with an open hand. A punch would be with a closed hand. They are both HITTING. Both intended to cause pain, otherwise what's the point??


*Thats rubbish, a smack doesnt cause pain.*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Thats rubbish, a smack doesnt cause pain.*


Oh really?? If we were in a room together and I asked if I could smack you, would you agree?

If a smack doesn't cause pain, why do it? Either to a child or a dog?

If you say to a child "Stop that or you get a smack", do they go "Ooh OK - after all smacks don't hurt?"

Don't be ridiculous.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Oh really?? If we were in a room together and I asked if I could smack you, would you agree?
> 
> If a smack doesn't cause pain, why do it? Either to a child or a dog?
> 
> ...


*lmao i've heard it all now..*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmao i've heard it all now..*


Well? Would you let anyone smack you?


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *IF all these people think he is so cruel then why allow him to carry on? Are they not then hypocrites?*


They don't allow him to carry on. Most of the organisations involved are British and have become involved because of the UK tour. They have no powers over what he does in the USA.

However, they have now set up the following website, stating why the methods used by CM can be detrimental to dogs, and they have said they will be attending his demonstrations to make sure animal wlefare standards are adhered to. I am sure they will bring prosecutions against him if they are not, but hopefully their presence alone will be enough to ensure he does not mistreat any dogs while he is here. So they ar ehardly hypocrites, they are doing as much as they can.

Welfare in Dog Training

They have said in that link his methods are a welfare issue. Are they ALL wrong? Are the BVA exhibiting professional jealousy, do they need the publicity? I doubt it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Well? Would you let anyone smack you?


*Yep if they were prepared for me to punch them.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> i've seen the video that you are talking about and i don't agree with what you see.
> 
> I'm not trying to dress ANYTHING up, tell me you wouldn't prefer a slap to a punch and please dont treat me like some halfwit that can't make up their own mind.I at least try and show respect in my replies.[/C*OLOR]




We all see the same thing, but we have different levels of understanding whats really happening...

if u cant see the dog gasping for air janice, then there is no way of trying to make u understand the wrongs in this...

I would really wish u would take ur time to go and watch and evaluate the kind methods of rehabilitation and then form ur opinion, rather than follow blind someone on tv who knows how and what to say to manipulate those who simply dont know any better imo (been there myself!) as harsh as this mind sound as they refuse to look into the other methods for some reason and are only willing to
_SEE what he SAYS_ and not to _SEE what he DOES._


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Explain the difference between a smack and a hit.
> 
> A smack, to me, is with an open hand. A punch would be with a closed hand. They are both HITTING. Both intended to cause pain, otherwise what's the point??


I have to say i use the touching my springer when he pull's i don't kick him, i don't tap him i touch him just to remind him i'm still there. I think your'll find that victoria s does it as well. I've just made the tea does everyone want one


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yep if they were prepared for me to punch them.*


Well why on earth would you do that???

Smacks don't hurt, do they?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jackson said:


> They don't allow him to carry on. Most of the organisations involved are British and have become involved because of the UK tour. They have no powers over what he does in the USA.
> 
> However, they have now set up the following website, stating why the methods used by CM can be detrimental to dogs, and they have said they will be attending his demonstrations to make sure animal wlefare standards are adhered to. I am sure they will bring prosecutions against him if they are not, but hopefully their presence alone will be enough to ensure he does not mistreat any dogs while he is here. So they ar ehardly hypocrites, they are doing as much as they can.
> 
> ...


*Jackson you know me well enough to know i can have a good debate,but what i want do is just go with the flow.Now IF it is ever proven that CM's methods are different to what i'm believing then i will be the 1st to say i was wrong.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> We all see the same thing, but we have different levels of understanding whats really happening...
> 
> if u cant see the dog gasping for air janice, then there is no way of trying to make u understand the wrongs in this...
> 
> ...


*Natik hand on my heart when i saw that video clip i HONESTLY didn't see as you and others did.So to be unbias i showed it to my hubby who i might add isn't that interested in CM, and asked his oppion and he said the same as me.So both of us were wrong?
*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Natik hand on my heart when i saw that video clip i HONESTLY didn't see as you and others did.So to be unbias i showed it to my hubby who i might add isn't that interested in CM, and asked his oppion and he said the same as me.So both of us were wrong?
> *


im afraid to say, but yes, both of u are wrong. But i believe not in a bad way but just bcause u havent seen someone proper working with kind methods on exact the same issue and have nothing to compare it too so aint able to judge it and evaluate it the same as those who know whats actually happening.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Jackson you know me well enough to know i can have a good debate,but what i want do is just go with the flow.Now IF it is ever proven that CM's methods are different to what i'm believing then i will be the 1st to say i was wrong.*


It is already proven through years of research. Hence more up to date trainers and behaviourists now employ 'learning theory' instead of pack theory. Not only is it kinder to the dog, it is more effective, especially long term.

The reason, I suspect, and I know it applies to myself, is that despite the huge warning emblazoned across the bottom of the screen, people _do_ copy what CM does, and you only have to look on forums like these to see that they think it is OK to do things like pin down a puppy who is doing nothing but normal puppy biting. Never necessary. I know quite a few behaviourists and trainers who have had to undo the damage caused by people following CM's methods which have led to very fear agressive dogs.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Natik hand on my heart when i saw that video clip i HONESTLY didn't see as you and others did.So to be unbias i showed it to my hubby who i might add isn't that interested in CM, and asked his oppion and he said the same as me.So both of us were wrong?
> *


Out of interest, what did you see when you looked at the clip? I'd also be interested to hear what you saw when you looked at the clip of the cat chasing dog with the e collar too, if you have the time.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

my behaviorist is working atm at 2 dogs being ruined by cesar millans methods... one puppy 8 months of age became human aggressive and the other fear agressive because of his methods  and they are at the risk of being pts because of those methods rather than being saved by them.

And those methods have been applied by an behaviorist who u would think should know what he does, just like cesar :nonod:

i yet have to come across kind methods who actually manage to ruin a dog like that.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> my behaviorist is working atm at 2 dogs being ruined by cesar millans methods... one puppy 8 months of age became human aggressive and the other fear agressive because of his methods  and they are at the risk of being pts because of those methods rather than being saved by them.
> 
> And those methods have been applied by an behaviorist who u would think should know what he does, just like cesar :nonod:


Because of the time frame that Mr. Millan works in. he can do no more than suppress behaviour. 'Suppress' means 'To put an end to forcibly' also to 'subdue'. It is not a cure but for the short time a camera is hovering, it looks 'good' to the untrained eye.  Behaviour suppression is not a long term solution as those of us who have worked with owners and their dogs for 'donkeys years' know all too well. In short the behaviour will keep resurfacing and may even get worse as the owner becomes harder and harder on the dog for it. The dogs are then either got rid of, put down or locked away out of sight until their dying day. IF the dog is lucky, the owner 'may' decide to give a behavioural trainer a ring and plead for help and that's why so many trainers are now clearing up after CM has done his worst, either directly through visiting the dog or indirectly through his tv programme. People WILL follow what they see on the TV despite the warnings given as a) they want a quick fix and b) they don't want to have to pay for a behavioural trainer to come and visit them!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


jackson said:



Out of interest, what did you see when you looked at the clip? I'd also be interested to hear what you saw when you looked at the clip of the cat chasing dog with the e collar too, if you have the time.

Click to expand...

YouTube - Cesar Milan Cruelty

in this clip i can understand what CM is saying and i except his explaination.The dog to me looks knackerd not choked.Another point i'd like to raise is this, if this dog was afraid wouldn't he have turned on CM once he got back up? i think it would have.

the clip that was shown the other day with shock collar and cat i havent had the sound on yet but i will find it and watch it again.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Because of the time frame that Mr. Millan works in. he can do no more than suppress behaviour. 'Suppress' means 'To put an end to forcibly' also to 'subdue'. It is not a cure but for the short time a camera is hovering, it looks 'good' to the untrained eye.  Behaviour suppression is not a long term solution as those of us who have worked with owners and their dogs for 'donkeys years' know all too well. In short the behaviour will keep resurfacing and may even get worse as the owner becomes harder and harder on the dog for it. The dogs are then either got rid of, put down or locked away out of sight until their dying day. IF the dog is lucky, the owner 'may' decide to give a behavioural trainer a ring and plead for help and that's why so many trainers are now clearing up after CM has done his worst, either directly through visiting the dog or indirectly through his tv programme. People WILL follow what they see on the TV despite the warnings given as a) they want a quick fix and b) they don't want to have to pay for a behavioural trainer to come and visit them!


The first dogs issue was that it was pulling on the lead (puppy = pulling, perfectly normal behaviour) and it ended up becoming human aggressive... so not just it surpresses the unwanted behaviour, it also creates new problems. :nonod:

There is also someone who uses millans methods and the dog functions like a robot,the only thing it cant help himself about is to shake in fear when carrying out a command.

Or another one using the same methods where the dog pees himself when the owner stares at him..

Is this worth it? Not for me, as my dogs are my friends looking up to me and not some emotional wrecked robots fearing me and maybe having to resolve in biting the only person who should be there looking out for them and experiencing the world as one scary place to live and function in!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> YouTube - Cesar Milan Cruelty
> 
> ...


just like u janice now, i would have said exact the same in the past, I would have been manipulated by what he says, by the drama, the overly dramatic music, the dramatic voice talking in the background... .but fortunetaly now i am able to see the dog and whats really happening to him ... !

and why does he has to portray such a horrible image of the wolf by this title ! Wolfs are being killed because people believe they are evil so he certainly doesnt do any good towards their reputation painting such a horrible picture of them.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> just like u janice now, i would have said exact the same in the past, I would have been manipulated by what he says, by the drama, the overly dramatic music, the dramatic voice talking in the background... .but fortunetaly now i am able to see the dog and whats really happening to him ... !


*Which is what? i've even watched how the dog is breathing and can't see anything wrong.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Which is what? i've even watched how the dog is breathing and can't see anything wrong.*


.... i give up janice. I really hope ur dogs will never be any nuisance to u so u never will have to resort to his methods.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Around 1.18, the dog is clearly gulping for air. It couldn't be any plainer.

Also, ask yourself what it is like from the DOG'S perspective.

One minute it is walking onlead (albeit with an already unreasonably tight leash), the next it gets kicked. It retaliates. CM hauls it off its feet.

Now, let's pause for a moment and remember what Cesar himself always chants - "dogs are not people". So it isn't thinking "I want to dominate the person holding the lead" or "Well, if I give in and behave I won't be choked any more".

It is reacting to what is happening fairly violently because IT IS BEING STRANGLED. It isn't dominance that is driving it - it is survival.

This dog does not know that it is being strangled because an ego-driven Mexican wants it to submit. It doesn't know it is being filmed.

It is fighting, it believes, for its life.

It then gives up. Not because it suddenly becomes less dominant - but because it is exhausted, short on oxygen, shocked and probably terrified.

Nice work, Cesar.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I suppose that if I hadn't educated myself on calming signals and canine body language etc, I too would not see those video clips the same as I do now?  Maybe instead of people forking out good money to go and see this little 'showman', they would be better advised to put their money towards courses and seminars like these instead?
Sheila Harper | Courses

Workshop & Courses

Think Dog! - Changing Education - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

COAPE - Centre of Applied Pet Ethology

Or even get hold of some proper dog behaviour or body language books and teach themselves! Learning widens the mind and opens the eyes. It also stops us from making the same mistakes over and over again.

Then and only then can someone hold a valid opinion on what a dogs body language is actually saying. Without the knowledge to accurately read dogs, the person watching can only hazard wild guesses or, as in CM fans case, listen and take in what someone else is telling them and follow them like a sheep instead, whether they are right or wrong, rather like in the Milgram Experiment.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> .... i give up janice. I really hope ur dogs will never be any nuisance to u so u never will have to resort to his methods.


*Give me some credit please my dogs have always been fine and i use my own methods.Just because i like watching his programe and dont disagree with him doesnt mean i've used his methods or anyone elses come to that.*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Around 1.18, the dog is clearly gulping for air. It couldn't be any plainer.


Yep and you don't need to know canine body language to see that!


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Natik hand on my heart when i saw that video clip i HONESTLY didn't see as you and others did.So to be unbias i showed it to my hubby who i might add isn't that interested in CM, and asked his oppion and he said the same as me.So both of us were wrong?
> *


I am very comfortable in the outdoors, I'm familiar with the wildlife, birds, signs of habitation, etc. I once went camping with a couple who had no experience with the outdoors. As we walked though the woods I would point out signs that deer and elk has passed, point out birds or other animals.... and nothing. They might as well been blind!

With no experience, they could be looking directly into something and be totally oblivious to it. They could not see it. Because seeing is not merely mechanical act, it requires experience, interpretation and in some cases knowledge.

Millan's fans have none of the above. The problem becomes worse with Millan's fans who've actually been conditioned to think this is how dogs should be treated and buy into his whole "he's being dominant" spiel. The result, like my friends, they can't see what's right in front of their eyes.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> YouTube - Cesar Milan Cruelty
> 
> ...


I actually thought Natik was referring to this clip: (the dog featured in this was a stray that may have never been in a house and was scared of walking on wood floors)

YouTube - DW - JonBee - No Audio

This is the cat one:

YouTube - Cesar Milan Electric Shock Shepherd

I mean, really?! Dogs chase cats because they are dominant? Surely dogs chase cats because they are bred to have a prey drive and chasing releases endorhpins? I know myself, because I have done it, that it is perfectly possible to train a dog not to chase a cat and still have a dog happy to be around a cat, as opposed to this dog that was terrified in the end to even look at the cat. There is no way that dog is reacting to a somethign that startles it, it is in pain.

YouTube - DW - JonBee - No Audio


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Give me some credit please my dogs have always been fine and i use my own methods.Just because i like watching his programe and dont disagree with him doesnt mean i've used his methods or anyone elses come to that.*


The danger is that if you DID run into problems, you are more likely to apply Cesar's misinformed and outdated theories, and therefore his methods. And if someone mentioned they were having problems with THEIR dogs, you'd presumably, since you're so keen on him, say something like "Have you tried watching the Dog Wrestler?".

Be honest - if you're a fan, he will be the first "trainer" you think of if anyone asks you for advice.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Give me some credit please my dogs have always been fine and i use my own methods.Just because i like watching his programe and dont disagree with him doesnt mean i've used his methods or anyone elses come to that.*


no, i didnt say u used them, i just mean that i hope u will never feel the need to use them on ur own dogs. Just like so many people out there feel like they have to


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> I am very comfortable in the outdoors, I'm familiar with the wildlife, birds, signs of habitation, etc. I once went camping with a couple who had no experience with the outdoors. As we walked though the woods I would point out signs that deer and elk has passed, point out birds or other animals.... and nothing. They might as well been blind!
> 
> With no experience, they could be looking directly into something and be totally oblivious to it. They could not see it. Because seeing is not merely mechanical act, it requires experience, interpretation and in some cases knowledge.
> 
> Millan's fans have none of the above. The problem becomes worse with Millan's fans who've actually been conditioned to think this is how dogs should be treated and buy into his whole "he's being dominant" spiel. The result, like my friends, they can't see what's right in front of their eyes.


*At 60 years of age i have learnt to think for myself.Not everyone is a moron and incapable of thinking for themselves.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> The danger is that if you DID run into problems, you are more likely to apply Cesar's misinformed and outdated theories, and therefore his methods. And if someone mentioned they were having problems with THEIR dogs, you'd presumably, since you're so keen on him, say something like "Have you tried watching the Dog Wrestler?".
> 
> Be honest - if you're a fan, he will be the first "trainer" you think of if anyone asks you for advice.


*Sorry you are wrong i've had dogs the best part of my adult life and not had a problem yet..........oh apart from recall with the 2 i have now.*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> I am very comfortable in the outdoors, I'm familiar with the wildlife, birds, signs of habitation, etc. I once went camping with a couple who had no experience with the outdoors. As we walked though the woods I would point out signs that deer and elk has passed, point out birds or other animals.... and nothing. They might as well been blind!
> 
> With no experience, they could be looking directly into something and be totally oblivious to it. They could not see it. Because seeing is not merely mechanical act, it requires experience, interpretation and in some cases knowledge.
> 
> Millan's fans have none of the above. The problem becomes worse with Millan's fans who've actually been conditioned to think this is how dogs should be treated and buy into his whole "he's being dominant" spiel. The result, like my friends, they can't see what's right in front of their eyes.


Funnily enough, I showed clips of CM to my OH who is as uninterested in dogs as it is possible to be, has never had dogs and wouldn't (or so I thought) know a stressed dog from one dressed in a clown suit, and he surprised me by immediately saying "Well that can't be right, surely!!"


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry you are wrong i've had dogs the best part of my adult life and not had a problem yet..........oh apart from recall with the 2 i have now.*


Yes, if you read my post again I said "if" you had problems you'd be more likely to apply Cesar's methods.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yes, if you read my post again I said "if" you had problems you'd be more likely to apply Cesar's methods.


*Yes i read your post and understood it and gave you my reply.I haven't lost my marbles yet.*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yes i read your post and understood it and gave you my reply.I haven't lost my marbles yet.*


Yes but you didn't reply to what I wrote.

I said "If you had problems you would be more likely to apply Cesar's methods"

And you said "You're wrong - I've never had any problems".

I didn't say you had ever had any problems. I said that IF you did, you'd be more likely to apply Cesar's methods. And if you WOULDN'T be more likely to use his methods in the event of having problems, then why not, if you like his methods so much?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yes but you didn't reply to what I wrote.
> 
> I said "If you had problems you would be more likely to apply Cesar's methods"
> 
> ...


*NO! i did state your wrong and you are....i KNOW i would not have to use his methods.*


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## Plabebob (Nov 30, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *At 60 years of age i have learnt to think for myself.Not everyone is a moron and incapable of thinking for themselves.*


No one said you were incapable of thinking. Specific knowledge of a technique is completely different from not being a moron. You can be a genius & still not have been educated on a specific concept.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *NO! i did state your wrong and you are....i KNOW i would not have to use his methods.*


How can you be certain that you will never have a problem with your dogs, or future dogs, ever?

Unless of course you are saying that you will never have any other dogs.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Plabebob said:


> No one said you were incapable of thinking. Specific knowledge of a technique is completely different from not being a moron. You can be a genius & still not have been educated on a specific concept.


*I didnt say anyone had called me a moron i was making a statement.*


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Sorry guys, I agree with Janice on this one. I have watched both videos and agree with him. He is saving the dogs life. Imagine for example you bring a child into the equation of the dog you say he so called "strangled". They could kick him accidently or even on purpose cause little kids do or pull his tail. He will turn on them like he turned on Ceaser! To be honest I think I would prefere Ceaser to save my dog by doing that than to have my child hurt and my dog put down. I once saw a really bad bitey dog on dog borstal and Robert Alleyne told the guys to hold the lead high, which meant that the dog was basically hanging off the lead. But it worked. What you have to look at guys is the outcome of Ceasers work! It works and they are really really really bad dogs! I have used some of his techniques especially the hand on the side thing to get his attention. You dont do it hard it doesnt hurt but it gets his attention. Now we have a very happy submissive dog that will let my son do anything to him and adores playing with him.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> At 60 years of age i have learnt to think for myself.Not everyone is a moron and incapable of thinking for themselves.


Didn't say you were a moron. But some skills need to be intentionally developed and if you don't possess them then you fall for people like Millan. The fact that you don't see all the stuff that is pointed out to you is evidence that you lack these skills.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> How can you be certain that you will never have a problem with your dogs, or future dogs, ever?
> 
> Unless of course you are saying that you will never have any other dogs.


*With respect are you reading what i say properly? I know myself,i also know i've never had to use anyone elses methods but my own and i've done just fine.There's nothing else to explain.*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> Sorry guys, I agree with Janice on this one. I have watched both videos and agree with him. He is saving the dogs life. Imagine for example you bring a child into the equation of the dog you say he so called "strangled". They could kick him accidently or even on purpose cause little kids do or pull his tail. He will turn on them like he turned on Ceaser!


What?? So we should make a habit of kicking and poking dogs to get them used to it,just in case children ever do it?



> To be honest I think I would prefere Ceaser to save my dog by doing that than to have my child hurt and my dog put down.


Here's an idea. Keep children (especially children who are too young to understand NOT to pull dogs' tails/kick them) and dogs separate.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Explain the difference between a smack and a hit.
> 
> A smack, to me, is with an open hand. A punch would be with a closed hand. They are both HITTING. Both intended to cause pain, otherwise what's the point??


There is a huge difference between smacking and hitting as most people have acknowledged. To me Smacking is a short sharp shock to grab attention. Not done too hard to hurt but done with an open hand to gain attention. To me a hit is hard and forcefull and done to hurt rather than gain attention. 
I would smack my dog on the rump if she was grumbling at another dog to which she would turn round look at me and continue walking as I had broken her concerntration on the dog.
To me bringing a dog up is like bring children up, we all have our own prefered methods and are entitled to go about this as we see fit. Each to their own imo


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Ahh! The fallacy of extremes or the false dichotomy. This excuse is often used by Millan's fans to excuse his behaviour. The fallacy is that Millan's violent methods are needed in order to save the animal's life. This of course is false. There are proven methods that do not rely on force. 


Hanging the dog so it can't bite you is not training. Most often what we get from Millan is not behaviour modification (aside from induced helplessness) but management through punishment. This is also the reason why the case of the Jindo, the owners failed. They were unable to apply the brutal kind of punishment Millan meted out and eventually the dog became accustomed to it. Jonbee was eventually given away because they couldn't manage his aggression.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> What?? So we should make a habit of kicking and poking dogs to get them used to it,just in case children ever do it?
> 
> No not at all, but if you have a dog that reacts like that you need help!
> 
> Here's an idea. Keep children (especially children who are too young to understand NOT to pull dogs' tails/kick them) and dogs separate.


You shouldnt have to do that. Thats my point! If you have a "good dog" Then they shouldnt react badly. Chazz growls if he has had enough but he knows not to ever attack. If I hear him then I tell Alfie off and I think CHazz has realsied thats all he needs to do cause I react to it.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Here's an idea. Keep children (especially children who are too young to understand NOT to pull dogs' tails/kick them) and dogs separate.


surely keeping dogs and children separate will cause more trouble than the occassional smack, dogs need socialising with children not keeping separate.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> Ahh! The fallacy of extremes or the false dichotomy. This excuse is often used by Millan's fans to excuse his behaviour. The fallacy is that Millan's violent methods are needed in order to save the animal's life. This of course is false. There are proven methods that do not rely on force.
> 
> Hanging the dog so it can't bite you is not training. Most often what we get from Millan is not behaviour modification (aside from induced helplessness) but management through punishment. This is also the reason why the case of the Jindo, the owners failed. They were unable to apply the brutal kind of punishment Millan meted out and eventually the dog became accustomed to it. Jonbee was eventually given away because they couldn't manage his aggression.


*If you knew anything about CM you would know he states quite clearly he DOES NOT train dogs.*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> You shouldnt have to do that. Thats my point! If you have a "good dog" Then they shouldnt react badly. Chazz growls if he has had enough but he knows not to ever attack. If I hear him then I tell Alfie off and I think CHazz has realsied thats all he needs to do cause I react to it.


Oh for heavens sake. There are no such things as "good dogs" and "bad dogs". Just dogs with different triggers and different tolerance thresholds.

If your child regularly causes your dog to growl then you should be ashamed of yourself. You are a) Putting your dog in a position where he feels uncomfortable enough to warn the child off with a growl and b) Putting your child in a position where he is in danger of a bite.

Stop your child doing whatever it is that causes your dog to growl, read some books on dog behaviour and thank your lucky stars your child hasn't been bitten - yet.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> surely keeping dogs and children separate will cause more trouble than the occassional smack, dogs need socialising with children not keeping separate.


If you can't supervise enough so that the child CANNOT pull tails etc, then yes you should separate them.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> surely keeping dogs and children separate will cause more trouble than the occassional smack, dogs need socialising with children not keeping separate.


but if a child is too young to understand not to pull on a dog and a parent too busy to supervise appriopriate then it is better to keep them seperated. A dog shouldnt be in a position to have to be pulled and poked like that by a child without responding to it...


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *If you knew anything about CM you would know he states quite clearly he DOES NOT train dogs.*


Call it what you want - training, rehabilitation.... it's all learning. Since Cesar clearly has no idea about HOW dogs learn, it's irrelevant what he calls it.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

ClaireLouise said:


> surely keeping dogs and children separate will cause more trouble than the occassional smack, dogs need socialising with children not keeping separate.


Excactly! Ty for that! That would be so much worse than to train it not to react!


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Call it what you want - training, rehabilitation.... it's all learning. Since Cesar clearly has no idea about HOW dogs learn, it's irrelevant what he calls it.


Of course he has otherwise it wouldnt work!!! You are only taking 2 times.........2 TIMES that he has had to be extreme! Think of all the other times it has worked!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Oh for heavens sake. There are no such things as "good dogs" and "bad dogs". Just dogs with different triggers and different tolerance thresholds.
> 
> If your child regularly causes your dog to growl then you should be ashamed of yourself. You are a) Putting your dog in a position where he feels uncomfortable enough to warn the child off with a growl and b) Putting your child in a position where he is in danger of a bite.
> 
> Stop your child doing whatever it is that causes your dog to growl, read some books on dog behaviour and thank your lucky stars your child hasn't been bitten - yet.


well said and its very irresponsible to allow a child to push a dog that far that it needs to growl :nonod:


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> Of course he has otherwise it wouldnt work!!! You are only taking 2 times.........2 TIMES that he has had to be extreme! Think of all the other times it has worked!


All what other times? Are there follow up episodes I should know about?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> If you can't supervise enough so that the child CANNOT pull tails etc, then yes you should separate them.


Then noting would ever be solved would it, just seperating them isnt the answer. They need working together to live together happily.Children need to understand that they can not do things like that to pets but dogs also need to learn that growling at children is not allowed.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2010)

Natik said:


> well said and its very irresponsible to allow a child to push a dog that far that it needs to growl :nonod:


And how dangerous is it to train a dog not to growl. A growl is its warning that it is not happen, it is the prelude to it feeling the need to defend itself.

Take away the warning and you have a dog that may eventually bite without warning


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> Sorry guys, I agree with Janice on this one. I have watched both videos and agree with him. *He is saving the dogs life*. Imagine for example you bring a child into the equation of the dog you say he so called "strangled". They could kick him accidently or even on purpose cause little kids do or pull his tail. He will turn on them like he turned on Ceaser! To be honest I think I would prefere Ceaser to save my dog by doing that than to have my child hurt and my dog put down. I once saw a really bad bitey dog on dog borstal and Robert Alleyne told the guys to hold the lead high, which meant that the dog was basically hanging off the lead. But it worked. What you have to look at guys is the outcome of Ceasers work! It works and they are really really really bad dogs! I have used some of his techniques especially the hand on the side thing to get his attention. You dont do it hard it doesnt hurt but it gets his attention. Now we have a very happy submissive dog that will let my son do anything to him and adores playing with him.


Do people put dogs down for being scared of flooring these days then? Or chasing cats?!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or how about not eating or being lazy and not walking far? Not every dog he deals with is going to be put down the next second if he doesn't "fix" it


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> Then noting would ever be solved would it, just seperating them isnt the answer. They need working together to live together happily.Children need to understand that they can not do things like that to pets but dogs also need to learn that growling at children is not allowed.


but growling is not a bad thing... it is a GOOD thing...

thats the only way a dog can tell u that its not happy with whats happening to him. Or how else is the dog meant to let u know?? Or is the dog not allowed to be unhappy with certain things happening to him?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

This is a man that honestly believes that a dog is MADE fearful if it clamps its tail down between its' legs and if you can keep the tail out from between its' legs then the dog will be happier???  

Video clip
*From the donkeys*

What an ass and oh yeah, he REALLY knows about the most basic canine body language doesn't he?!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> Then noting would ever be solved would it, just seperating them isnt the answer. They need working together to live together happily.Children need to understand that they can not do things like that to pets but dogs also need to learn that growling at children is not allowed.


As Savahl said, you should NEVER tell a dog off for growling. A growl is a warning and is the dog's only way of telling you something is making it uncomfortable.

Often, when dogs are said to "attack without warning", on closer examination you find that the dog has had a history of growling and being told off for it. So it stops growling. It's no happier - it just stops growling. So the owner assumes quite wrongly that it is no longer bothered by whatever it used to growl at. And then one day, just as an example, the toddler pushes its face JUST that too far into the dog's face. And the dog, knowing that growls either aren't heeded, or get it told off, ups the ante and bites.

And everyone goes "He attacked without warning!!"


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> Then noting would ever be solved would it, just seperating them isnt the answer. They need working together to live together happily.Children need to understand that they can not do things like that to pets but dogs also need to learn that growling at children is not allowed.


It is standard common sense and good parenting NOT to leave children and dogs alone together is it not?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Children should be supervised with animals and taught how to behave with animals. If he's growling at the kid because the kid is tormenting him then keep him away from the dog or under close supervision and take him away if he starts tormenting the dog. Growling is a good thing it means you have a warning.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> It is standard common sense and good parenting NOT to leave children and dogs alone together is it not?


You'd think so, wouldn't you 

My children are old enough, at 6 and 7, to know NEVER to tease the dogs, or put their faces in the dogs', or take their toys/chews etc BUT if I go upstairs for anything longer than the time it takes to go to the loo, I put the dogs away.

My children and my dogs are too precious to me to risk any mishaps. Whether it's the kids getting boisterous and accidentally hurting the dogs, or vice versa, I won't risk it. There is no need. Dogs are NOT playthings and however "good" the child, or the dog, there is too much scope for misunderstanding and child/animal just getting it wrong.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Oh for heavens sake. There are no such things as "good dogs" and "bad dogs". Just dogs with different triggers and different tolerance thresholds.
> 
> If your child regularly causes your dog to growl then you should be ashamed of yourself. You are a) Putting your dog in a position where he feels uncomfortable enough to warn the child off with a growl and b) Putting your child in a position where he is in danger of a bite.
> 
> Stop your child doing whatever it is that causes your dog to growl, read some books on dog behaviour and thank your lucky stars your child hasn't been bitten - yet.


He doesnt growl regularly ty! They play together and sometimes my son gets heavy handed! However chazz really missed my son when he was ill! He seemed very lost and missed him! kids love to play with dogs. I NEVER put him in a position!


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> It is standard common sense and good parenting NOT to leave children and dogs alone together is it not?


Who said anything about leaving children alone with the dogs???


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> It is standard common sense and good parenting NOT to leave children and dogs alone together is it not?


OF COURSE that goes without saying in my house,,,,,



Colliepoodle said:


> As Savahl said, you should NEVER tell a dog off for growling. A growl is a warning and is the dog's only way of telling you something is making it uncomfortable.
> 
> Often, when dogs are said to "attack without warning", on closer examination you find that the dog has had a history of growling and being told off for it. So it stops growling. It's no happier - it just stops growling. So the owner assumes quite wrongly that it is no longer bothered by whatever it used to growl at. And then one day, just as an example, the toddler pushes its face JUST that too far into the dog's face. And the dog, knowing that growls either aren't heeded, or get it told off, ups the ante and bites.
> 
> And everyone goes "He attacked without warning!!"





Natik said:


> but growling is not a bad thing... it is a GOOD thing...
> 
> thats the only way a dog can tell u that its not happy with whats happening to him. Or how else is the dog meant to let u know?? Or is the dog not allowed to be unhappy with certain things happening to him?


 I had a breed specific behaviourist/rescue coordinator here. she gave us great information on behaviour and its has worked for us, we have no problem with our dog since and what she told us isnt consistant with what you are saying so in light of that we will continue to follow her advice thank you.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> You'd think so, wouldn't you
> 
> My children are old enough, at 6 and 7, to know NEVER to tease the dogs, or put their faces in the dogs', or take their toys/chews etc BUT if I go upstairs for anything longer than the time it takes to go to the loo, I put the dogs away.
> 
> My children and my dogs are too precious to me to risk any mishaps. Whether it's the kids getting boisterous and accidentally hurting the dogs, or vice versa, I won't risk it. There is no need. Dogs are NOT playthings and however "good" the child, or the dog, there is too much scope for misunderstanding and child/animal just getting it wrong.


They ALWAYS follow me the pair of them so I never get a chance to leave them!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Please note debate is good everyone is entitled to their own opinion and responses should be to the questions or beliefs not about the person stating them. Thankyou ......Jill


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> He doesnt growl regularly ty! They play together and sometimes my son gets heavy handed! However chazz really missed my son when he was ill! He seemed very lost and missed him! kids love to play with dogs. I NEVER put him in a position!


"Sometimes my son gets heavy handed" - so, more than once, then?

Kids may well love to play with dogs but if your dog is growling at your son and it has happened MORE THAN ONCE which is what your post before implied, before you started back-pedalling, then you need to be more careful and do NOT tell your dog off for growling - stop your child doing whatever it is that makes the dog growl!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re janice-199 -
> _ thats rubbish, a smack doesn;t hurt. _





> re colliePoodle -
> _ Well? Would you let anyone smack you? _





JANICE199 said:


> *Yep if they were prepared for me to punch them.*


that is what happens when pos-P AKA Applied-Punishment is used - 
it is called * escalation - * there is a provocation at one level, and a response that is more-intense, dangerous + threatening than the original provocation.

if it continues, it typically becomes a self-feeding spiral which is destructive of the relationship between the 2 parties, and which can have enormous ripple effects on those associated with the 2 parties - who are often expected to choose a side. 
escalation is the same process whether the provocation is between 2 nations, a married couple, 2 kids on a playground, or a dog and their owner. 
bitter divorces, international or civil wars, schoolyard fights all involve escalation.

* escalation is a poor response, and is to be avoided. 
the very first rule of diplomacy is, Never escalate. *

the dog does not comply with a cue the first time; i am irritated, and slap the dog lightly. 
the dog did not HEAR the cue, but definitely FEELs the slap - and looks at me with a low growl. 
i am angered by the growl - so now i punch the dog, not hard, but rock them slightly. 
the dog goes rigid, up on toes, hackles, looks right at me with hard-eyes and snarls - all in the same moment. 
* what should i do next? * 
* kick the dog? 
* slip the lead over the dogs head + throttle the dog with forefeet off the ground? 
* punch the dog repeatedly with force, until the dog folds onto the ground and lies unresisting? 
* SOMEthing else - to halt the escalation

pick one - and remember that dogs have 42 teeth and can deliver 5 to 9 full-mouth, full-force bites in approximately 2 seconds elapsed time. 
* escalation is a dead-end in any confrontation - and in so-called training, it is destructive + needlessly confrontational. * 
if U punish and refuse to escalate, U are merely nagging - if U punish AND escalate, sooner or later U will meet a dog who will not quit, and then God help U both. 
(and BTW, i would be entirely on the dogs side in that conflict.)

a re-reading of the scene in The Call of the Wild  by *london*, wherein the stolen dog Buck meets the dog-breaker after his Alaska arrival, hungry, sore, thirsty and confused, may re-acquaint the interested with what punishment and escalation can mean - as not ALL of the dogs who fight with the dog-breaker survive the encounter. 
some refuse to quit.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> They ALWAYS follow me the pair of them so I never get a chance to leave them!


Good. So you probably have a good idea what it is your child does to make your dog growl. Should be fairly easy to put a stop to before he gets bitten then


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## Michelle.... (Jan 6, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Didn't say you were a moron. But some skills need to be intentionally developed and if you don't possess them then you fall for people like Millan. The fact that you don't see all the stuff that is pointed out to you is evidence that you lack these skills.


is there any reason why you are so rude....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i think people associate growling with aggression hence why a dog is often being told off for growling, but they dont realise that its the dogs only way of telling u its not happy with whats just happening. 

It is very dangerous to tell ur dog off for growling as then it can become unpredictable when it gets pushed too far...!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Michelle.... said:


> is there any reason why you are so rude....


whats rude about that? 

I understand exactly what this person is saying and i lack skills in certain areas myself, just like everyone else does.


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## Michelle.... (Jan 6, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Didn't say you were a moron. But some skills need to be intentionally developed and if you don't possess them then you fall for people like Millan. The fact that you don't see all the stuff that is pointed out to you is evidence that you lack these skills.





Natik said:


> whats rude about that?
> 
> I understand exactly what this person is saying and i lack skills in certain areas myself, just like everyone else does.


you might not find it rude.. ...but to be personal about members lacking skills is extremely rude imo end of!!!!.....


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Natik said:


> i think people associate growling with aggression hence why a dog is often being told off for growling, but they dont realise that its the dogs only way of telling u its not happy with whats just happening.
> 
> It is very dangerous to tell ur dog off for growling as then it can become unpredictable when it gets pushed too far...!!


Well as I said before the advice ive been given regarding growling differs from this. Ive been told it should happen but not to shout/hit but make the dog go outside for 5 minutes so they know its not allowed then let them back in


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Good. So you probably have a good idea what it is your child does to make your dog growl. Should be fairly easy to put a stop to before he gets bitten then


I can honestly say I know what my son does. I tell him off for what he does. I NEVER tell Chazz off for growling, never said I did, I wouldnt. He is 4 yrs old and is getting better all the time. He is PLAYING with him and he is learning to not be so heavy handed. Any way It kinda feels that my parenting skills is under attack here. You dont know me enough guys to EVER question how I bring up my child! So as the mediator said, please stop.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> Well as I said before the advice ive been given regarding growling differs from this. Ive been told it should happen but not to shout/hit but make the dog go outside for 5 minutes so they know its not allowed then let them back in


U should try to find out what it is that makes the dog growl... and see what can be done about it


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Natik said:


> U should try to find out what it is that makes the dog growl... and see what can be done about it


Yeah I am aware of this we have done and this problem has been long since solved ty 

CAN I JUST ADD TOO..... When I did have a problem with my dog the last place I would have asked advice is this place because certain people here are very rude and judgemental  I contacted a breed specific Forum and they were very helpful. I can fully understand why newbies dont post here


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Quotes From Experts

They are all wrong of course. :nonod:


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Michelle.... said:


> is there any reason why you are so rude....


It wasn't rude. The word moron was brought up by her. Worse this woman can't even figure out that despite his claims Millan does try to train dogs. The day he stops interacting with dogs is the day his claim will become true.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Lol no apologies for personally attacking me then I see! Just silence.....thats what I love about this place!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i see quite alot of newbies posting regarding training and behaviour throughout the time im here and they all get great advice as far as im concerned. U wil obviously get sometimes those who respond with defensivness and it can get difficult to advice them but overall i think newbies get great advice on here ... for free


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> Lol no apologies for personally attacking me then I see! Just silence.....thats what I love about this place!


because noone was attacking u... only commenting on ur posts.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Quotes From Experts
> 
> They are all wrong of course. :nonod:


Im sure as many quote against Cesar if you seacrh the internet there are as many for. People will always do things differently and believe in different methods there isnt one way to do things in life


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Im confused. If CM isnt a behaviourist or a trainer, then what the hell is he?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Natik said:


> i see quite alot of newbies posting regarding training and behaviour throughout the time im here and they all get great advice as far as im concerned. U wil obviously get sometimes those who respond with defensivness and it can get difficult to advice them but overall i think newbies get great advice on here ... for free


I see alot of newbie getting good advice but i have also seen them attacked many times on different subjects


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Natik said:


> because noone was attacking u... only commenting on ur posts.


Some comments made about their post were rather rude and I thought quite Offensive imo


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