# Brief Cooper update



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Haven't been on for a while, coops kind of doing ok i suppose, we have been doing the touch for treats daily with him, we leave a line on him that helps aswell, we were told to keep a log of low to high value things he steels and what treat is required to get it back, this is easier said than done. An example of a low value object was a toilet roll tube,we should be able to get it back with a low value reward, so i got one and "accidentally" dropped it, would he let me have it for kibble? if he could speak if he would have said F*** OFF  would he give it for the puppy treats we bought? NO, left over onion Bhaji??? umm NO, we are supposed to put the treat by his nose and when he drops treat and take, Coop won't let you get near his nose, not even for steak, and if you do you can get him to drop occassionally, but when getting the toilet roll back he will try and beat you to eat and was trying to bite at it through my hands when i did beat him to it. Very hard work and not really gonig to plan. When i did get it back it was a pulp, i gave it back to him to see if he would let me have it again, and he swallowed it :mad2:

He did just run into the living room with my wallet in his mouth, i was fed up and just took it from his mouth before he chewed up my bank card, to an account that has absolutely nothing left in it thanks to him., we are also now convinced he now goes out of his way to take things as he knows he will get treated for it, we have to outwit him with treats to get stuff off of him, we are nowhere near being able to exchange with him. 

He has also now started to reject his harness, when i get it or the lead he retreats under the stairs and he bit me (very lightly) when putting it on him today. I treated him through the harness and got it on him, he then ran off under the stairs before i could connect the lead.

He doesn't seem to like the harness going over his head, And NO i won't buy one that doesn't go over his head, enough is enough he must accept it, he's really starting to take the p**S. 

I stand in the kitchen cooking his potatoes he has to be fed now, can't move for kongs, puppy treats, toys, leads, different headcollars , i look at him and sometimes i really do wonder.

I will say maybe his leg is giving him grief and maybe he doesn't want to walk, we will take him to the vets on payday, we simply can't afford it this month.
Maybe he doesn't like the "Rainy" walk along the streets , or maybe he just doesn't like the harness, or maybe just maybe he's an ARS**O*E. 

This dog is an ARS**OLE make no mistakes, he's a bad egg. If had the money i would keep him in a big cage, i like him i really do, and *some* of his antics amuse me but they have no place in a family home. 

I will call behaviorist soon as she said we could call for a little more advice, hopefully given time we will start to make progress.

As for walking, he is getting better, he doesn't pull as much, iv'e even walked locally with the kids and as long as we all stay together he is pretty good.
Iv'e also been "respecting" him a little more around strange dogs, if he lags or stops i don't pull him as feel this may stress him further, i encourage him forward, and let him have his space from the other dog, he's normally very nervy but we haven't had any growling or snapping for about a week, a Huge irish wolfhound approached offlead the other day, coop stopped, i encouraged him to follow and let him "arc" his walk round him and he was fine, any dogs he wants to approach i allow him to sniff for a few seconds then move him on before anything negative happens.


----------



## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I think things are bound to get a bit worse before they get better, but it is worth letting the behaviourist know the troubles you are having trading items for treats with him and see what they say.

Glad to know his walking is getting better, at least that is a positive thing


----------



## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I think when it gets to the point that you really dislike and resent the dog that much that you should call these people

Dogue De Bordeaux


----------



## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

You sound like you're at your wits end with him. I do agree with you that he is stealing to get attention and a treat, quite clever of him really! I don't know what to suggest really, sorry. This will bump your post up, maybe others have some suggestions.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Oh dear; he's really putting you through it. Won't make any suggestions at all as I am sure the behaviourist who knows you and Coops will have plenty of ideas. Do you think he really picks up on your feelings maybe? I'm guessing you haven't bonded too much with all this going on?


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

babycham2002 said:


> I think when it gets to the point that you really dislike and resent the dog that much that you should call these people
> 
> Dogue De Bordeaux


Been speaking to the bloke thst founded this rescue, hes offered to put me in contact with online trainers who they use to rehabilatate rescues, but dont want to go down that road as dont want to confuse what our behaviorists teaching us. He has also taken my and Lindsay and diesels details in reference to reporting the breeder, who he has had plenty of dealings with.


----------



## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Do you think he really picks up on your feelings maybe? I'm guessing you haven't bonded too much with all this going on?


I was wondering about this... are you always having harsh words with him? I found that my dog's behaviour is much much better when he is taught right from wrong is a positive way rather than being punished for bad things. He tends to react much better to a calm and confident firm but fair approach. I used to do alot of shouting at 1st until I realised that this was making the situation worse. maybe you need to paint on a happy face and concentrate on the positive so he doesn't think he's a little bugger (even though he is..)

It must be very difficult for you, especially with kids... I really hope you're able to work with the behaviourist and sort him out.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

PoisonGirl said:


> I think things are bound to get a bit worse before they get better, but it is worth letting the behaviourist know the troubles you are having trading items for treats with him and see what they say.
> 
> Glad to know his walking is getting better, at least that is a positive thing





delca1 said:


> You sound like you're at your wits end with him. I do agree with you that he is stealing to get attention and a treat, quite clever of him really! I don't know what to suggest really, sorry. This will bump your post up, maybe others have some suggestions.





Dogless said:


> Oh dear; he's really putting you through it. Won't make any suggestions at all as I am sure the behaviourist who knows you and Coops will have plenty of ideas. Do you think he really picks up on your feelings maybe? I'm guessing you haven't bonded too much with all this going on?


I will contact the behaviorist for some tips, its only been a week so got to give him time, and there are a few positives. I do care for him alot, every now and then hes a great dog, plonks himself on my lap and falls asleep, like he's my best mate, then 15 mins later he goes wonders off, steels something and the trust you felt 15mins previous is gone, he gets very defensive and it really makes it hard. Also in regards to "de sensatise" him to hands, he has no problems with my hands coming at him, when he has something he shouldn't thats when he has a problem. He is very clever, he will touch for treats no probs, if i move through to the hallway, other side of the stairgate he knows, and he wont play. I would understand if he had previously stepped through the gate, and i then slammed it shut, followed by a beating, but that has never happened, he gets shown his bed and loads of treats, he just doesn't want to go out there (it seems)


----------



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

So sorry to hear you're having such a hard time.
I can get like that with my 2 on those REALLY stressful times (*touchwood* they havent been around for a long time) They would bark at someone or a dog and I'd get stressy and feel like saying "Oh for Gods sake! I'll just let you off and do as you damn well please! Ive had enough! :mad2:"

I cant offer any advice, but I have been where you have been, your cooking their food, spending your money on them and you sometimes feel like shouting "WHY CANT YOU JUST BE GOOD FOR ME HEY!?" 

I hope things start improving and you look back on this thread in a year and see a huge change.

xxx


----------



## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

i'm sorry things aren't going smoothly yet with cooper at home. it's a good start though that things are improving when you are out on walks. see what the behavourist says when you speak next. i can imagine how frustrated you must be feeling at minute


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

redginald said:


> Haven't been on for a while, coops kind of doing ok i suppose, we have been doing the touch for treats daily with him, we leave a line on him that helps aswell, we were told to keep a log of low to high value things he steels and what treat is required to get it back, this is easier said than done. An example of a low value object was a toilet roll tube,we should be able to get it back with a low value reward, so i got one and "accidentally" dropped it, would he let me have it for kibble? if he could speak if he would have said F*** OFF  would he give it for the puppy treats we bought? NO, left over onion Bhaji??? umm NO, we are supposed to put the treat by his nose and when he drops treat and take, Coop won't let you get near his nose, not even for steak, and if you do you can get him to drop occassionally, but when getting the toilet roll back he will try and beat you to eat and was trying to bite at it through my hands when i did beat him to it. Very hard work and not really gonig to plan. When i did get it back it was a pulp, i gave it back to him to see if he would let me have it again, and he swallowed it :mad2:
> 
> *Did Donna explain that you need to wave the food under his nose until he drops it and then throw the food AWAY from the guarded article, in several pieces further and further away from teh prized item? This is so that you do not BEAT him to it and make it into a competition; if you compete with teh dog you will never win. Also if he has a line on then he cannot escape.*
> 
> ...


TBH it sounds as though you do not like your dog very much and owning him has become a chore rather than a pleasure.

I think you and your dog would be much happier if he was rehomed, you are obviously overdogged.

When you start calling your dogs such abusive names it is time the dog found a better owner.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I remember you posting about buying this puppy, and myself and a few other people tried to disuade you from going to this breeder, who, if I remember rightly, had two litters on the ground at the same time. You chose to ignore everyone's advice, and go for a pup from this breeder, and whilst I applaud you for sticking to a difficult breed from a [email protected] breeder, the pup is by no means being difficult or bad, it's simply what's in his genes, and what you've made of him. If he's running around with your wallet in his mouth, that means he can get to it, which, with a dog that you know is stealing things to destroy, isn't his fault, it's your fault. I live with dogs that can be destructive when bored, and when I'm not there to supervise them for more than ten mins, they are crated, and these are nicely bred, well socialised dogs. 

Don't blame the dog, do keep up the learning curve, you chose a less than easy breed, and made the decision to support an honestly very poor breeder, who probably didn't consider temperament as much of a priority as they should have done, and so you now have to live with the consequences of that decision. I really do hope you manage to learn the handling skills you need to keep Cooper with you, but please do not blame him, he didn't ask to be brought into this world, or choose his owner. He could have ended up with someone much less caring than you, and been passed from pillar to post by now, and I dread to think where all the other pups ended up, but I do hope you manage to get on top of his training, and I do hope after learning this very hard lesson, you can spread the message to others of just how important it is not to skimp on supporting good breeders when it comes to buying a pup.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I was wondering about this... are you always having harsh words with him? I found that my dog's behaviour is much much better when he is taught right from wrong is a positive way rather than being punished for bad things. He tends to react much better to a calm and confident firm but fair approach. I used to do alot of shouting at 1st until I realised that this was making the situation worse. maybe you need to paint on a happy face and concentrate on the positive so he doesn't think he's a little bugger (even though he is..)
> 
> It must be very difficult for you, especially with kids... I really hope you're able to work with the behaviourist and sort him out.


Possibly, ive started to try and ignore his jumping up which is difficult with a 41 kilo boisterous puppy, and when on the floor loads of fuss and going to stick at it, also he wears a house line so boisterous behavior and hes out, instead of a "fun fight" and out which he probably quite enjoyed. The kids will need crash helmets soon, he occassionally flips out and rounds around the room on the walls which can be scarey!


Pupcakes said:


> So sorry to hear you're having such a hard time.
> I can get like that with my 2 on those REALLY stressful times (*touchwood* they havent been around for a long time) They would bark at someone or a dog and I'd get stressy and feel like saying "Oh for Gods sake! I'll just let you off and do as you damn well please! Ive had enough! :mad2:"
> 
> I cant offer any advice, but I have been where you have been, your cooking their food, spending your money on them and you sometimes feel like shouting "WHY CANT YOU JUST BE GOOD FOR ME HEY!?"
> ...


It does get a bit much sometimes, popped him to the vets the other day for weighing and wormer, then popped him into my work to meet a few, let him approach them and gave them treats to give him, he seemed ok ( he does seem to be suspicious of some people which i respected and didnt force him, and he went and took a treat of somebody eventually who he was eyeballing)

Sometimes our relationship struggles as he wants to playfight, and i can't, you fuss him he gets too excited and were he would get attention he normally has to be led out for teeth on skin.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I truly feel sorry for both of you. Talk to your behaviourist again.

I wonder if Cooper talk he would be using the same sort of words to describe you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, put his behaviour to one side for a moment. Do you believe your relationship can be repaired?


----------



## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

I think also you need to try and keep your house as clutter free as possible. He's a big dog so places where he can't reach will be few and far between, but maybe put your things in a cupboard or on a high up shelf. Rufus used to steel things all the time. He still does it now if he can find something that he can reach and easily run off with. He thinks it's fun and it gets our attention. Give him attention by playing a controlled game with him instead, like hide and seek (hide a toy or treat somewhere.. make him wait while you hide it, and then let him go find it)

Getting into a routine where the family don't leave things in places where he can get them will help. Try if you can to avoid all situations like this. You need to help him help himself. He's a problem dog no doubt about it, so you need to do everything you can, no matter how small, to help him reach his goal. Take away temptation.. he's unlikely to learn that he can't have these things, so remove them from his view and that will solve one problem.

We've just bought a load of bins with lids.. No amount of training will keep Rufus out of the bin so decided to invest in bins with lids for every room. £20 and the problem is solved and he's got one less thing to distract him and he's much better for it.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

We have removed all the kids toys from the living room, all of them, but unfortunately we live in a house and not a empty vacuum filled void and there is always something to steel if he really wants it, we have made alot of adjustments in keeping stuff away from him but there is always the odd occassion he gets it.

Let me make it clear it's not the fact he takes and damages items thats my problem, i accept things like this happen especially with puppies, it's the behavior i see when trying to get it back. but we are working on it.

My wallet was on top of a microwave in the kitchen, i will sellotape it to the ceiling from now on. In all seriousness he couldn't really reach there before, now he can, everything will have to be moved up a level.

Sorry for calling him an A******E, luckily he niether understands , nor can he read, and if he could he would probably be flattered, dogs seem to like A***H**** unfortunately he doesn't like me even though i am one. 

He's sat being nice now , better get some treats down his gob


----------



## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> Sorry for calling him an A******E, luckily he niether understands , nor can he read, and if he could he would probably be flattered, dogs seem to like A***H**** unfortunately he doesn't like me even though i am one.


He might not understand the word, but he'll understand the way you are saying it and your negative attitude towards him. I'm not having a go, it's hard to enjoy a dog when he's driving you up the wall. But you must try to remain calm and keep positive. He'll be picking up on negative vibes and it may even be making him depressed and cause him to act up more.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

You're obviously really pee'd off with him, but honestly, I have a lovely girl who can be an absolute ratbag at destroying things, just when you think she's fine at being left alone, she will destroy something *precious*. Not once have I blamed her, she's a dog, she doesn't know the provenance an object has to me, or the value, or how I use a plastic bit of card to get money out to buy her food with, that's me who knows that, so it's my job to ensure her world is filled with success instead of failure. If you can't trust him, crate him, or put him in an area where nothing is there for him to steal and destroy. Tau's destroyed so many things I couldn't remember them all, including a beautiful designer leather jacket worth several hundred pounds, which would I rather have? She also managed to eat several light bulbs without injuring herself, when my ex left them within her reach. 

As far as the behaviour goes when trying to get objects back, I hope the behaviourist can help you with that, but again, you chose a less than easy breed, and a [email protected] breeder, and you ended up with Cooper. You can't change Cooper, you can change your handling skills, and your knowledge, and hopefully find a way forward, that won't be easy, but then you've stuck with him this far, which is probably not the easiest bit of the journey tbh, once you start to learn a bit of handling skills it does get better, and you start to see where you can make improvments on your handling.


----------



## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Xiva ruined her crate, now to me £50 for a 2nd hand crate is rather a lot of money. I bought it her to stop her destroying the skirting boards, because I nowhere I could leave the crate far enough from the wall, and from pulling in things like the hoover cable and chewing them.
The crate is practically unusable as a double crate now, you need to keep the sliding doors shut with a clip. 

I have badly scratched skirting boards in 3 places, chunks out my door frame (even from recently before I got her new crate). She ruined countless beds. 

She was crated when I even went to the loo, until she was about 7 months and even then it was only for a minute. 

She was always clawing my feet trying to get to where she was going too fast, tripping me up and once, I caught my elbow badly on the gate, by standing on the back of my jammie trousers.


Yeah, it annoyed me. OK sometimes I shouted a little bit at her to get off! Fair enough they weren't issues needing a behaviourist and I did get some tips off here. But not once, never, did I call her such a horible word neither to her face nor to anyone else. That said, it still absolutely fcking kills me that the last words I said to her was that she was bad for digging a ginormous hole in my garden before I left them in their bed. Once they are gone, you can't take back the negative things you thought or said.


----------



## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

PoisonGirl said:


> That said, it still absolutely fcking kills me that the last words I said to her was that she was bad for digging a ginormous hole in my garden before I left them in their bed. Once they are gone, you can't take back the negative things you thought or said.


Indeed.. it puts it into perspective really. You must be kicking yourself, but from what i've read from you on this forum i'm sure you're a kind person and want the best for your dogs. Don't beat yourself up..

I'm all for positive training... i've tried the shouting and it doesn't work. Positive interaction all the way.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Spencer is a terrible thief and his is purely to get attention. Everything we don't want chewing on or covered in slobber or is dangerous is put away at the moment and he's ignored when he does get something coz it doesn't really matter that he has it. It's been this way for 6 months now and we're just starting to reintroduce things.

Spen isn't aggressive when you take things though, it's more irritating than anything.


----------



## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear you are still struggling with Cooper.

It is early days and with his background it is likely to take months/years for him to become the dog your family really want.

Of course, it is always your decision to choose whether or not you want to rehome, but IMO, there is no harm in shooting off a few emails to as many rescues as poss, some may be able to offer assistance should rehoming become a necessity, some may be able to point you in the direction of more advice and support.

I'd just say, take a deep breath and keep at it 

Diz was not exactly the dog I had planned for my home and I've struggled to bond with her, but once the worst passed it does become like having a 'proper' canine friend again. 

All the very best


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Thought i would dig his ball out from under the tv and try fetch....again (he really doesn't get it) it resulted in him running off with the ball, rolling his gums at me, sat for a while as he destroyed the ball, upgraded the treat to billy bear ham  and he dropped it (without thinking about it) he still wasn't happy about me getting the ball and quickly snatched it back, i tried as suggested at throwing the ham and taking the ball, i gave it back to him and told him to get it, it didn't really go to plan, but eventually got to a point where he had the ball, i told him to drop, (he was lying on his side face on floor so couldn't really drop it) and he would let me take the ball from his mouth, i clicked and treated and gave it back, we repeated it for a while, needs some fine tuning but actually felt i made a little progress. Want him to actually drop it on command eventually but one step at a time.


----------



## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

It really does sound like you dont like your dog 
Some dogs and owners are simply bad matches. We used to take care of a lab who was horrible in his own home but a total angel for us. I chalked it up to us having other dogs who did a lot of the work for us. He was a very social dog and the fact that he did whatever they did kept him out of most trouble. He would be good for a few days after returning to his home, then revert to troublemaking until he came back to us for a spell. 

Another thought, some dogs just like having something in their mouth. I have an adult dane (dont know how old he is exactly, but he is likely a senior) who simply must have a stuffie in his mouth when hes happy about something or excited. Dinner time and coming home time are two examples. If he cant find one of his thousands of toys quickly, he will grab whatever is available, from sweatshirts, to shoes to blankets or towels hanging to dry.

Did the behavioralist give you a written plan? 
Did the behavioralist give you some signs to look for, how to tell if his guarding behavior is improving? Hes not going to make a 180 in a manner of weeks, these things take time, but there are signs to look for that things are looking up.
Id talk to the behavioralist, and make sure you understood instructions and are following them as intended.


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

Have to go out. Wrote a long reply and lost it. Want to make an entry, so I can return to it. and not forget... :mad2::mad2::mad2:


----------



## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

I just wanted to say good luck with Cooper. You are trying to rectify mistakes that have been made with his breeding, his genes and his puppyhood have shaped the dog you have now. But he is only a baby and you are trying to rectify his behaviour. For stickign with him so far thumbs up.

No where near as bad as you describe but I have a guarder and she is now a million times better than she was, it can be done but it takes a long time for them to get it, and to develop the trust if you are working in a completely new way.

For the record I regularly call both of mine rude things, always in a jolly voice usually when I am cross (with myself). The worst is a rescue and has obviously been beaten, just because I swear doesn't mean I don't love her, nor that I let my emotions impact upon her. No matter what you call him, as a stress release for you, don't let him know about it in your tone and body language.

Good luck, if you are down or unsure call the behaviourist she is the only one who has seen how you actually interact with Cooper and will be better placed than us to help you.

Please keep us updated


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Sorry you are still struggling. I know its difficult in a busy household with children but if there is nothing for him to steal thats one less frustration to deal with. 

Our previous dog was dreadful and would destroy anything he could get his teeth on. So we learned our lesson and when we had Dougie anything we didn't want chewed was moved - he doesn't have free access to the kitchen so somethings are shut away in there other stuff upstairs which again don't let him upstairs. Also a "leave it" command was one of the first things taught him because he was trying to eat pebbles (& poo) in the garden. No idea whether its just his nature or because of the measures we took he never learned to steal but can now leave virtually anything safely.

Maybe try "smellier" treats, cheese is usually fairly good or Morrisons do dried tripe sticks (smells like sick to me but dogs seem to love it). Might also be an idea to talk to your behavourist about teaching leave it.

Probably way off beam but from what you have said suspect some of the problem is because you appear to think Cooper doesn't like you so thats why he misbehaves. If that is the case, if you can address that you can both move on.


----------



## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

Im sorry to hear you are still struggling, try and stay calm when he misbehaves, I find with Izzy she really picks up on our emotions and is much worse if we get wound up by what shes doing. Although I understand thats much easier said than done !

With teaching him to drop something a trainer at our bronze award classes suggested that you get them interested in a toy let them take it then hold them by the collar so they cant lie down with it and cant start a game of tug and wait for them to let it go, as they let it go say "drop" and then give it straight back to them. Im not sure if this would work with cooper if he's a bit collar shy. Perhaps you could build up to it by asking for a sit than taking hold of his collar before giving the treat?

Izzy is also very mouthy, like a lot of labs, so she always likes to have something in her mouth when she gets excited or greets anyone. She loves having her tummy rubbed and the base of her back scratched and will roll around on her back enjoying it but will want something in her mouth so we give her a toy to hold because otherwise she will try to mouth out hands or clothes. In the instances when he gets a time out for teeth on skin what is happening before that, is he particularly excited about something or enjoying a tummy rub, could you try giving him something to put in his mouth instead to prevent the teeth on skin?

I find as with a lot of training it gets worse before it gets better, you just have to go through the eye of the storm and hopefully before you know it things will be much better!


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

redginald i think part of the problem probably is you took on this breed without knowing an awful lot about them , call him an `impulse` buy if you like. they can be a really headstong breed , like many of their mastiff counterparts it was never going to be easy taking on such a breed when you knew so little about them , he`s still very much a puppy , who is still maturing , males can be more difficult in this breed [and other breeds like them] than females , they will test you and sometimes it`s constantly i get you and sometimes you feel that it`s never ending , it may be worthwhile keeping a diary concerning all the `bad` things he does so when you next see the behaviourist everything has been written down just so you don`t forget things when she happens to be there next time.
it was never going to be easy , you could have the best dog bred by the best person in the breed and STILL come up against all these problems.
the times i`ve almost screamed with my dogs behaviour , you just have to stop count to 10 and realize they are just dogs , it`s nothing personal to you although i do understand at times it feels like it is.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I really can not see how you will ever teach your dog ANYTHING, if you have the attitude that a) he is an AR++HOLE and b) his potential injuries/ pain will have to wait till payday before he is made comfortable


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> I really can not see how you will ever teach your dog ANYTHING, if you have the attitude that a) he is an AR++HOLE and b) his potential injuries/ pain will have to wait till payday before he is made comfortable


Very unfair. The OP is doing his best. How about some positivity or constructive advice rather than Criticism.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

chichi said:


> Very unfair. The OP is doing his best. How about some positivity or constructive advice rather than Criticism.


NOT unfair- we have a duty of care to our animals. The dog will pick up on her negativity towards him, and some of the behaviours he is displaying could be due to pain which is NOT being addressed, IMO waiting till payday to deal with my dogs pain in simply unacceptable. She has been given constructive advice both on here and by her behaviourist, but is still calling the dog an ar++hole, not trying 110% to help him.


----------



## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

redginald said:


> we are also now convinced he now goes out of his way to take things as he knows he will get treated for it


Dresden does this. I have to be very careful about how I use treats with him. For example, if he is playing up in some way, lets say leaping up and putting paws on the counter tops, and I treat him when he has all four paws on the ground, he learns the 'process' of 'jump up, then sit, get treat!' He doesn't associate the treat with the action of sitting nicely with all four feet on the ground, he associates the treat with the chain of actions, and will jump up even more because he knows that ultimately, as long as he sits nicely at the end, a treat will appear.

I had the same problem with when he used to bite and attack the lead: I'd treat him once he had stopped and was calm, then he'd go right back to lead biting as he was now anticipating a treat at the end, one way or another.

With his bad behaviours, I have to kinda work out whether he is going to just learn a process and Im going to inadvertently train him to do something!


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> NOT unfair- we have a duty of care to our animals. The dog will pick up on her negativity towards him, and some of the behaviours he is displaying could be due to pain which is NOT being addressed, IMO waiting till payday to deal with my dogs pain in simply unacceptable. She has been given constructive advice both on here and by her behaviourist, but is still calling the dog an ar++hole, not trying 110% to help him.


Im sure if the OP thought pain was an issue here the dog would be seen by the Vet. Money unfortunately isnt neverending and the OP doesnt strike me as irresponsible or the dog would have been shunted off to another home by now.

I just feel sometimes people can be so judgemental and it drives me mad when an owner is trying their best. ........


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

chichi said:


> Im sure if the OP thought pain was an issue here the dog would be seen by the Vet. Money unfortunately isnt neverending and the OP doesnt strike me as irresponsible or the dog would have been shunted off to another home by now.
> 
> I just feel sometimes people can be so judgemental and it drives me mad when an owner is trying their best. ........


SHE/HE said in his/her OP that some of his issues could be due to pain :mad2:

I am not being judgemental- if you had seen the issues i had to work through with mine I fully understand how frustrating it can be, but ruling out pain was top of my priorities!


----------



## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I think OP is a he, 
not 100% certain but pretty sure


----------



## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Redginald - would it help to actually sit down and think about what you _like_ about Cooper? I know you're posting on here when you are feeling at your wits end but there never seems to be any sort of affection towards him in your posts - only a constant sense that you feel he is always letting you down. If you are feeling this stressed and unhappy with him (as others have said) he is bound to be picking up on that and that may be making him act up more.

If you can think of the positives then maybe it would give you something to fall back on when he is being difficult?

_*But*_ I am worried by the repeated assertion that if you only had the money you would keep him in a cage. Maybe I am completely misreading that and it is only a joke but if you really have that little of a bond with him then maybe you would be better off looking into alternative homes.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sorry not been on here all day, thanks for the constructive comments ive recieved its very helpful. 

As for the waiting for payday sorry if thats not upto your satisfaction but i simply cant afford the vet at present. I dont have to justify myself to anybody but on top of his insurance (£38 A MONTH) ,a new £40 dog gate, his food, his vet visit last week and the £96 on the behaviorist this month, i cant afford anymore, i also have a family to feed, hes showing no signs of being in pain, but doesnt mean hes not in any so for that reason its of highest priority he gets seen by the vet as soon as i have the funds. If he was in pain or under threat i would consider robbing a bank. I would put it on a credit card but that got max'd out paying for my lasts dogs chemptherapy, so it would be appreciatted of you would take your neck and wind it back in please, i dont appreciatte you airing your views on my personnal situation you know nothing about. thanks. Its not a case of me "not really wanting to dip into my offshore savings account", i actually cant afford it until payday


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

redginald, Im just going to be lame and quote myself for a minute. This is what I said to you back in March on your cooper turns nasty thread:



ouesi said:


> Hi redginald, in what Ive read of your threads, this is not unexpected TBH...
> 
> Dogues are a molosser breed, and the ones who dont do well with manhandling tend to *really* not do well with that type of handling if that makes sense. Ive read several posts where there is a feel of you making him do things. Thats what I mean by manhandling. Doesnt have to be forceful.
> 
> ...


Ive bolded the parts that I think youre still missing. This is about changing your relationship with Cooper, not about making him mind. The minding part is just a nice side-effect of having a good relationship with your dog. Youre trying to make him mind without working on the relationship and its not working for you at all. What I think youll find is that if you work on the relationship, you will end up with a cooperative dog seemingly without really trying.

Have you called the behavioralist yet and asked for clarification and help on the guarding issues?


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Spencer is a terrible thief and his is purely to get attention. Everything we don't want chewing on or covered in slobber or is dangerous is put away at the moment and he's ignored when he does get something coz it doesn't really matter that he has it. It's been this way for 6 months now and we're just starting to reintroduce things.
> 
> Spen isn't aggressive when you take things though, it's more irritating than anything.


Our lab used to steel things now and again, he would try his luck sometimes and leg it off up the garden, annoying but at least when i caught up with him, he just dropped it !! 


Muze said:


> I'm sorry to hear you are still struggling with Cooper.
> 
> It is early days and with his background it is likely to take months/years for him to become the dog your family really want.
> 
> ...


Cheers really want to make it work with him, gets overwhelming at times though


ouesi said:


> It really does sound like you dont like your dog
> Some dogs and owners are simply bad matches. We used to take care of a lab who was horrible in his own home but a total angel for us. I chalked it up to us having other dogs who did a lot of the work for us. He was a very social dog and the fact that he did whatever they did kept him out of most trouble. He would be good for a few days after returning to his home, then revert to troublemaking until he came back to us for a spell.
> 
> Another thought, some dogs just like having something in their mouth. I have an adult dane (dont know how old he is exactly, but he is likely a senior) who simply must have a stuffie in his mouth when hes happy about something or excited. Dinner time and coming home time are two examples. If he cant find one of his thousands of toys quickly, he will grab whatever is available, from sweatshirts, to shoes to blankets or towels hanging to dry.
> ...


We have a written plan, inc teaching him hide 10 times a day on walks, to teach him walking behind me is acceptable if hes unsure rather than push him into other dogs and people against his will, there is only a small part of the walk i can get him to co operate at the moment but keep trying. Also a few exercises we have been teaching him that he picks up quite well.

I do like him, i know it may sound as though i don't sometimes but it's because it frustrates me sometimes, i need him to co operate to be able to keep him. 


Amy-manycats said:


> I just wanted to say good luck with Cooper. You are trying to rectify mistakes that have been made with his breeding, his genes and his puppyhood have shaped the dog you have now. But he is only a baby and you are trying to rectify his behaviour. For stickign with him so far thumbs up.
> 
> No where near as bad as you describe but I have a guarder and she is now a million times better than she was, it can be done but it takes a long time for them to get it, and to develop the trust if you are working in a completely new way.
> 
> ...


cheers, im really not bothered about calling him an ar**h**e, its no different to getting a bit cheesed of and putting your head in your hands and saying "oh jeeeez" i also call him scrotum face  I don't say it in a negative tone at him. 


DoodlesRule said:


> Sorry you are still struggling. I know its difficult in a busy household with children but if there is nothing for him to steal thats one less frustration to deal with.
> 
> Our previous dog was dreadful and would destroy anything he could get his teeth on. So we learned our lesson and when we had Dougie anything we didn't want chewed was moved - he doesn't have free access to the kitchen so somethings are shut away in there other stuff upstairs which again don't let him upstairs. Also a "leave it" command was one of the first things taught him because he was trying to eat pebbles (& poo) in the garden. No idea whether its just his nature or because of the measures we took he never learned to steal but can now leave virtually anything safely.
> 
> ...


We have removed alot from his reach and incidents are few and far between, problem is when it happens the behavior doesn't change obviously , we had a problem with him getting under the bed and biting when removed, the last behaviourist banned him from upstairs, this has removed the situation and now it doesn't happen, if he were to get upstairs though, and get under the bed the behaviour would be the same.


Izzysmummy said:


> Im sorry to hear you are still struggling, try and stay calm when he misbehaves, I find with Izzy she really picks up on our emotions and is much worse if we get wound up by what shes doing. Although I understand thats much easier said than done !
> 
> With teaching him to drop something a trainer at our bronze award classes suggested that you get them interested in a toy let them take it then hold them by the collar so they cant lie down with it and cant start a game of tug and wait for them to let it go, as they let it go say "drop" and then give it straight back to them. Im not sure if this would work with cooper if he's a bit collar shy. Perhaps you could build up to it by asking for a sit than taking hold of his collar before giving the treat?
> 
> ...


Thanks, he likes getting his tummy rubbed too, if he behaves in front of me i always fuss him. We played tug with him and taught "OFF" and it works, f its not the tug toy though it won't!


diablo said:


> redginald i think part of the problem probably is you took on this breed without knowing an awful lot about them , call him an `impulse` buy if you like. they can be a really headstong breed , like many of their mastiff counterparts it was never going to be easy taking on such a breed when you knew so little about them , he`s still very much a puppy , who is still maturing , males can be more difficult in this breed [and other breeds like them] than females , they will test you and sometimes it`s constantly i get you and sometimes you feel that it`s never ending , it may be worthwhile keeping a diary concerning all the `bad` things he does so when you next see the behaviourist everything has been written down just so you don`t forget things when she happens to be there next time.
> it was never going to be easy , you could have the best dog bred by the best person in the breed and STILL come up against all these problems.
> the times i`ve almost screamed with my dogs behaviour , you just have to stop count to 10 and realize they are just dogs , it`s nothing personal to you although i do understand at times it feels like it is.


Cheers, we spent two years researching the breed, i was on e mail lists and in contact with many breeders, it wasn't on a whim but agree and in hindsight i could have done more, speaking to DDB welfare on why they are normally rehomed would have been a good shout, we have a diary for what stolen item requires what reward to get back, it's a boring read at the moment, toilet roll.....steak shoe.....steak piece of paper.....steak!


Shadowrat said:


> Dresden does this. I have to be very careful about how I use treats with him. For example, if he is playing up in some way, lets say leaping up and putting paws on the counter tops, and I treat him when he has all four paws on the ground, he learns the 'process' of 'jump up, then sit, get treat!' He doesn't associate the treat with the action of sitting nicely with all four feet on the ground, he associates the treat with the chain of actions, and will jump up even more because he knows that ultimately, as long as he sits nicely at the end, a treat will appear.
> 
> I had the same problem with when he used to bite and attack the lead: I'd treat him once he had stopped and was calm, then he'd go right back to lead biting as he was now anticipating a treat at the end, one way or another.
> 
> With his bad behaviours, I have to kinda work out whether he is going to just learn a process and Im going to inadvertently train him to do something!


Ha i know what your saying, Coop often gets one step ahead, he's done the attack lead then sit nicely thing too 


babycham2002 said:


> I think OP is a he,
> not 100% certain but pretty sure


Yep!! I am.!


L/C said:


> Redginald - would it help to actually sit down and think about what you _like_ about Cooper? I know you're posting on here when you are feeling at your wits end but there never seems to be any sort of affection towards him in your posts - only a constant sense that you feel he is always letting you down. If you are feeling this stressed and unhappy with him (as others have said) he is bound to be picking up on that and that may be making him act up more.
> 
> If you can think of the positives then maybe it would give you something to fall back on when he is being difficult?
> 
> _*But*_ I am worried by the repeated assertion that if you only had the money you would keep him in a cage. Maybe I am completely misreading that and it is only a joke but if you really have that little of a bond with him then maybe you would be better off looking into alternative homes.


I wouldn't put him in a cage, i was joking when beaten. I do have a lot of positive things to say about cooper, but normally end up posting on the negs, will try and put a change to that


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> redginald, Im just going to be lame and quote myself for a minute. This is what I said to you back in March on your cooper turns nasty thread:
> 
> Ive bolded the parts that I think youre still missing. This is about changing your relationship with Cooper, not about making him mind. The minding part is just a nice side-effect of having a good relationship with your dog. Youre trying to make him mind without working on the relationship and its not working for you at all. What I think youll find is that if you work on the relationship, you will end up with a cooperative dog seemingly without really trying.
> 
> Have you called the behavioralist yet and asked for clarification and help on the guarding issues?


Yep i know, been trying to build a relationship with him, we spend time every day doing exercises with him to which he is really good, i normally find teaching him things very easy he picks it up quickly, it's trying to stop the other behaviours, i offer a choice of doing something else but once in the zone, hes in the zone. He's constantly rewarded for good behavior, i always treat him when putting on the harness.

We are making notes on what we need to clarify and will contact her after the weekend.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Carried on from where we left off yesterday with whats left of his tennis ball, he actually went and fetched it then came back halfway and dropped it a good number of times, until he eventually just lead on his side chewing it, i then walked off with the treats, he then came up to me and dropped it  going to leave it for a bit now, want to keep sessions short as instructed, he normally gets bored and stops playing and gets defensive again when no longer motivated by the treats.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> TBH it sounds as though you do not like your dog very much and owning him has become a chore rather than a pleasure.
> 
> I think you and your dog would be much happier if he was rehomed, you are obviously overdogged.
> 
> When you start calling your dogs such abusive names it is time the dog found a better owner.


Thanks for your opinion, thought you had nothing to say to me? please jog on


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

redginald said:


> Carried on from where we left off yesterday with whats left of his tennis ball, he actually went and fetched it then came back halfway and dropped it a good number of times, until he eventually just lead on his side chewing it, i then walked off with the treats, he then came up to me and dropped it  going to leave it for a bit now, want to keep sessions short as instructed, he normally gets bored and stops playing *and gets defensive again when no longer motivated by the treats*.


Oh, something I meant to tell you, and this reminded me...

If you use treats as a lure to put on a head halter, take food away, put on a harness etc. - a bribe really to get him to do something he doesnt want to do, you WILL create a dog who is not only not motivated by treats, but will actually begin to mistrust treats.

One of my dogs came to us with awful guarding while at the same time would REFUSE any food offered to him. It looked really odd, but by the same token made perfect sense. All we knew about him prior to getting him was that he had been spotted several times over several months in a state-park area, and that several people had tried to catch him (luring him with food) to no avail. IOW, the only experience this dog had with food was using it as a way to trap him.

It took us over a year for him to take food offered to him outside. (In the house he learned much faster - different association, I doubt he had ever been in a house before.)

It may very well be that you are creating a dog who is now becoming suspicious of treats. Which obviously will work against you in the long run.
Please talk to your behavioralist about this, Im sure she will know exactly what I am talking about.

Oh, and why are you waiting another 5 days to call the behavioralist? Just call her tomorrow no? I dont know of any good behavioralist who wouldnt be perfectly happy to address concerns and/or confusions.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Oh, something I meant to tell you, and this reminded me...
> 
> If you use treats as a lure to put on a head halter, take food away, put on a harness etc. - a bribe really to get him to do something he doesnt want to do, you WILL create a dog who is not only not motivated by treats, but will actually begin to mistrust treats.
> 
> ...


I will say when a treat is offered he looks at me as if to say "whats the catch??" I may call tomorrow i have to go into hospital at the end of this week


----------



## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Just wanted to say to OP keep at it.

It sounds like he has been rather harshly judged in this thread, I mean how may of us had cursed our dogs when we are struggling with their behaviour.


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Muze said:


> Just wanted to say to OP keep at it.
> 
> It sounds like he has been rather harshly judged in this thread, I mean how may of us had cursed our dogs when we are struggling with their behaviour.


Well I know I have but then Im only human.....not a superior being like some


----------



## Skandi (May 4, 2012)

Hey, a thought on the thieving, pup did it, so we treated took it off her.. however all she learnt from that is thieve=treat, so I took to ignoring her, if she pinches something that can't do her any harm I just ignore it, and go and retrieve it when she's bored. Now were down to just socks and knickers.. annoying but better than everything movable!
As to silly buggers with the harness, I took to just standing by the door untill she stands still, I KNOW she wants to go out, and she knows that she won't untill the collar goes on, so it's just a case of out waiting her, everytime she tries to pull back and "bow" I just stand up again we don't go anywhere untill the collar is on and it doesn't go on untill she stands nicely. I don't say anything to her during this untill it's on then she gets praised.


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry, but there is a big difference between calling your dog a pain in the neck when your 3 year old puppy thinks she needs to whack you with a paw, simultaneously getting mud on your pants and spilling coffee on your shirt 2 minutes before you have to leave for work, and saying:


redginald said:


> This dog is an ARS**OLE make no mistakes, he's a bad egg. If had the money i would keep him in a big cage, i like him i really do, and *some* of his antics amuse me but they have no place in a family home.


The above sounds to me like an owner that is trying to talk himself in to giving the dog up.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, but there is a big difference between calling your dog a pain in the neck when your 3 year old "puppy" thinks she needs to whack you with a paw, simultaneously getting mud on your pants and spilling coffee on your shirt 2 minutes before you have to leave for work, and saying:
> 
> The above sounds to me like an owner that is trying to talk himself in to giving the dog up.


Well im not wanting to rehome him, i was massivly annoyed, and again he cant read and i can assure you hes not offended by it....not one bit. Tbh not sure if it has anything to do with age or culture but i wouldn't think twice about calling my best mate the most obscene swear word you can think of for stepping on my toe, massive over reaction over this, its irrelevent and im not sorry about writing it, as i know i didn't mean it.

I wouldnt call my dog a pain in the neck, its not part of my vocab, just as i wouldnt say "ooh you little toad" like my nan would, the term ars**ole gets thrown around alot at work, it really isnt venomous when coming from my mouth, again massive over reaction


----------



## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Personally, I'd rather OP have a good old rant online than dismiss the issue. 
I mean there are plenty of owners out there who don't even bother to look for advice, just stick their dog on Gumtree or worse and forget about it!

IME, it takes real courage to even admit that your pet has serious problems.

Dealing with behavioural issues comes more easily to some than other, we are not all born gifted with the patience or circumstances that means we can deal with dogs' 'problems'.

As said before, keep going OP, it's early days, all options are still open


----------



## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Sounds like your having a hard time with Cooper. I know how you feel, when i first got Nicky he was an utter pain in the butt, day and night. His lead behaviour had me in tears daily. 2 years down the line he is much better and i love him more than anything. Maybe not as extreme at Coops problems but just stick at it. You will get there and good for you for sticking with him, a lot of people would have given up by now.


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Re. the whole vet thing, a friend of mine once needed to take her dog to the vet when she didn't have any money until the end of the month. She rang them and explained the situation and they let her pay when she could. I understand that Dogs Trust and PDSA will often help out with vet's costs, although you'd need to check this as I'm not sure if that's only if you're on certain benefits. The Dogs Trust were pretty good to us, we were hit with some unexpected costs when we got our dog, and they helped with some money towards spaying although we weren't on benefits, and their rules state that that is the only time that they will help. A carefully worded email may help, a phone call to them wasn't successful. Good luck with it all!


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I really feel for you because I know how draining it can be to have to deal with tough situations day in day out and it would be so much easier if you didn't care but because you do you have to stick with it, do your very best to try and improve things. When it's one step forward and two steps back you just wonder if that's how it will be for his entire existence and it's exhausting. 

I'm sure things will improve but it won't happen quickly, four years on and Flynn still has his moments but he also has many great days now too - four years has seemed like an eternity though. 

Trouble is it seems Coops is quite a clever fellow and not one to do what is wanted of him for a few miserly treats and praise, an insult to his intelligence. Fingers crossed the behaviourist can come up with a few tricks to out smart him.

ETA - the words I have said to Flynn, said about him to the guys here and felt about him have no place on this forum, more like a building site with some burley blokes, lol. Don't mean a thing, I still love him like crazy would never let anyone else get their hands on him and he - not speaking the lingo - has no idea what I meant. Sometimes a good old cuss makes us feel that little bit better and anyone with their perfect dog may not understand how that works but it does. 
Just beggars belief that now you can't even let off a bit if verbal without it meaning you hate your dog - how ******* ridiculous!!!!
Take no notice Reg unless you've been in a similar situation it's difficult to understand and you know my thoughts on a particular poster - believe we share likewise!


----------



## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Hang on in there. I think you're doing a great job. You've got a difficult dog who is at a difficult age and obviously other stuff to deal with if you're off to hospital. It's a lot to manage whaen you've got young children.

It's much to your credit that you're doing your best for Cooper. He's got a behaviourist and you are obviously working with her to sort things out.

It'll take a while but you'll get there and have a dog who's a credit to you. Well done for working on Cooper's stuff.

Look forward to hearing about the next episode and wish you well.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Muze said:


> Personally, I'd rather OP have a good old rant online than dismiss the issue.
> I mean there are plenty of owners out there who don't even bother to look for advice, just stick their dog on Gumtree or worse and forget about it!
> 
> IME, it takes real courage to even admit that your pet has serious problems.
> ...


Completely agree, I have called Roxy all sorts in the past as I was at the end of my tether & fed up ....... & still do occassionally! 

IME struggling with a dog isn't easy & is draining, patience can run out some days. One day that stands out for me me was being pulled for nearly an hour on our walk ( there was so much wildlife she wanted to chase), then she went ballistic because an old coat was hung up in a tree, the she wouldn't move & started digging - I just sat down & started crying as I didn't know what else to do. No amount of treats/toys/affection were registering with her that day & I was stuck in the middle of no where in the freezing cold - not a good day at all 

It does get easier but I was lucky in that i had alot of help & was financially able to get professional advice & attend specific classes - not everyone can do this.

Sometimes just having a rant helps an awful lot so I hope the OP doesn't get too slated for just sounding off .... we all do it at times, his is just in a post for all to see 

Reginald, I can't remember if Cooper has a toy & if he is allowed them all the time. As ouesi pointed out, some dogs do like to have things in their mouth when they get stressed/excited, etc. Roxy constantly has a specific toy which she carries round & she runs to get in when she she starts to become excited, think it helps calm her. She is quite a 'mouhty' dog but mainly used to do this on poor Toby so the toy stops any of this. Maybe ask your behaviourist about this first & see what she thinks.

Really hope you are feeling better about things soon


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I've read through but i may have missed this info , if i have and i'm repeating I apologise. 

When does Cooper steal things? less in terms of time, but more in relation to walks, meals, play other things happening in the household. Tink is most likely to steal an item when she is due, a walk or a training session and I have been caught on the phone, for instance. Now, if I get a call, I smear a little cheese or peanut butter on the end of a stag bar to encourage her to have a chew. while I take the call. It saves my bra being paraded around the garden or the tv remote finding it's way into a hole in the garden.

I'm asking this in hope you can identify a pattern and it may help get something in place to prevent it. Possibly even a quiet training activity for a few mins might at the right time help. I dont' know if you are doing this as a part of your what he took/ what treat to get it returned.

I understand how frustrating it can be and on more than one occasion I took myself off to the shed for a scream. What shocked me and likely others in your original post was the vitriol aimed at Coop. When i was screaming, i was screaming at my frustration with myself.

I really hope you can make progress and build up a relationahip of trust and respect in both directions.


----------



## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

Skandi said:


> Hey, a thought on the thieving, pup did it, so we treated took it off her.. however all she learnt from that is thieve=treat, so I took to ignoring her, if she pinches something that can't do her any harm I just ignore it, and go and retrieve it when she's bored.


Totally agree with this. My boy used to steel and he got rewarded when he dropped it he got a treat. He started actively seeking out things to steel so he could drop it and get a treat. We started ignoring the steeling and he got bored of it because he wasn't getting attention from it (That and there was less stuff to steel because it was all away). Your situation is slightly different as it's the aggressive behavior when you try and get it off him that is more of a a problem. But if he was doing it less then you can start enjoying him more and bond with him again, and that in itself will help with the aggression towards you.



Muze said:


> Personally, I'd rather OP have a good old rant online than dismiss the issue.
> I mean there are plenty of owners out there who don't even bother to look for advice, just stick their dog on Gumtree or worse and forget about it!
> 
> IME, it takes real courage to even admit that your pet has serious problems.
> ...


Absolutely! There is a heck of alot of posts about dogs who have done something great, or have learnt a new trick, been out for a lovely walk etc etc. Granted these are nice to read and make you smile, but it's also good to see that someone who is struggling is coming on here and wanting some advice. There are so many people who have problem dogs and they just leave the dog locked up in their house getting worse and worse until eventually something really bad happens. I predict a good future for Cooper.. he's going through a tough time himself with his teenage stage, but I believe there will be light at the end of the tunnel. Just hang on in there, and keep a positive head on!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

One of Spens nick names is sh*t head, I call it him while he's dragging me around on the other end of a tug toy  And he gets called an as*hole pretty often too :scared: Doesn't mean a thing though and I'm sure nobody on here thinks I hate him.

I think the problem is that we only ever seem to hear the negative stuff about Cooper, I don't think I've ever seen a positive thread about him. Combine that with calling him names, saying he'd lock him in a cage, that he has no place in the family etc and it's no wonder people have come to the conclusion that the OP doesn't particularly like his dog.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

When commenting on no place in a family home, im commenting on his behavior rather than him, his current behavior is unacceptable, he bites, he weighs 41kilos, 2/3 of his predicted wieght, and yes it is scary at times, and needs sorting. 

To put it in perspective he will prob weigh 60kilos and have a head BIGGER in proportion to his "slender" 60kilo body than any other breed, so please forgive me for getting a little concerned that hes biting, and in our family home.

Yes i knew he was going to be big, thats not the issue, the issue is biting, that i am trying my hardest to correct.

I am scared that he may bite somebody, but one of the reasons iis m petrafied i will have to rehome him, because i do care about him, and really dont want to be in a position where his fate is in somebody elses hands.

Alot of the anger and frustrations i have is i care for him alot, and want him to settle for and AND for him.

I do put up alot of photo threads of Cooper, but they normally get likes rather than bumps from comments , so may have passed you by. 

He does have alot of toys but has access to alot of them, ive started putting a few out of range and they will hopefully become more appealing to him


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Megan345 said:


> Re. the whole vet thing, a friend of mine once needed to take her dog to the vet when she didn't have any money until the end of the month. She rang them and explained the situation and they let her pay when she could. I understand that Dogs Trust and PDSA will often help out with vet's costs, although you'd need to check this as I'm not sure if that's only if you're on certain benefits. The Dogs Trust were pretty good to us, we were hit with some unexpected costs when we got our dog, and they helped with some money towards spaying although we weren't on benefits, and their rules state that that is the only time that they will help. A carefully worded email may help, a phone call to them wasn't successful. Good luck with it all!


Thanks, i know they wont help us, our problem isnt our income, its our outgoings we can never benefit from any schemes such as this, thanks for the suggestion.

We have insurance in place, we will book him in and get a claim running as soon as i have the £80 excess. Our vet wont allow treatment unless payment avaliable.


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

That's a shame. I thought it was worth a mention.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

TBH i think people are too quick to judge a rant!

I get where you are coming from, partly because we are running on similar timelines, i lost my billy last year to cancer, he was the easiest dog anyone could ever meet, had no training whatsoever and was perfectly behaved.

I unlike you chose the same breed but didnt get the same dog, i got a difficult one, not as many problems as with cooper, but more then i was used to and it's a bit of a culture shock to go from the easiest dog to a challenge. Thankfully, alfie can be cheeky but he is not destructive at all, i really am so thankful for this. I felt a bit overwhelmed at first but you are doing all you can, getting a behaviourist in and trying hard for him.

I can understand your frustrations though, i feel like you think you are running out of time as soon he will be mature and weigh too much for any sort of change to happen. 

I think, and not aimed at you but people in the future, you really have to know and understand breed traits before taking on dogs, even if you like the look of them they may not be a perfect fit for you or your family.


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I think some people need to wind their necks in. OP is doing their best to resolve their situation with their dog with far more effort than most would. In a situation like this, the forum should be a place of support, not one of unconstructive criticism.


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

After a particularly trying day when my son was young I retorted to his I hate you mummy comment with not as much as I hate you, you little git
(he thought it was hilarious and rolled around laughing). What a dreadful parent I was and really he should have been immediately rehomed.

Most of us say things we don't mean, how often do we all say I could kill so & so, doesn't mean we are all regularly committing murder. Give the guy a break


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Didn't mean to sound like I was having a dig when I said I don't recall seeing anything but negative threads about Cooper, just saying it might be why people have jumped to the conclusion you don't like him. I fully understand that his behaviour is unacceptable and that the problems you're having need sorting out


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

So glad you're making SOME progress redginald. It does sound like a nightmare. Kes has been driving me potty recently, I've called her all sorts and been so fruistrated I've declined to even deal with her, telling the OH to get her sorted out etc. because I just can't stand her behaviour at times so I know just how you feel. I love her to bits but that doesn't mean, like with anyone or anything, you don't want to scream bloody murder. If people were serious everytime they said they wanted to kill something/someone then there'd be nobody left in the world to say it.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> TBH i think people are too quick to judge a rant!
> 
> I get where you are coming from, partly because we are running on similar timelines, i lost my billy last year to cancer, he was the easiest dog anyone could ever meet, had no training whatsoever and was perfectly behaved.
> 
> ...


Cheers, yes it has been a shock, ive put a lot of time into coop, i didnt with redd, he was my gfs dog was never trained, i didnt put much thought into training etc and joined pf for help with his illness, im ashamed to say it but when it came to it, everything i did with Redd was wrong, i had no clue, if he run off and i caught him, i would tell him off :mad2: no wonder we never got on top of these issues with him, but ultimately we had a dog who was dissobidient BUT never shown any sogns of agression ever, it wasnt in him. Since being on pf ive learned alot, so it frustrates me that Coop has shown this side to him, even if it is my fault i didnt intend for it.


Snoringbear said:


> I think some people need to wind their necks in. OP is doing their best to resolve their situation with their dog with far more effort than most would. In a situation like this, the forum should be a place of support, not one of unconstructive criticism.


Thanks, appreciatte that, especially from somebody who knows the breed well.


Sarah1983 said:


> Didn't mean to sound like I was having a dig when I said I don't recall seeing anything but negative threads about Cooper, just saying it might be why people have jumped to the conclusion you don't like him. I fully understand that his behaviour is unacceptable and that the problems you're having need sorting out


I wasnt popping at you, sorry had so many replies i just kind of replied to all in general


Phoolf said:


> So glad you're making SOME progress redginald. It does sound like a nightmare. Kes has been driving me potty recently, I've called her all sorts and been so fruistrated I've declined to even deal with her, telling the OH to get her sorted out etc. because I just can't stand her behaviour at times so I know just how you feel. I love her to bits but that doesn't mean, like with anyone or anything, you don't want to scream bloody murder. If people were serious everytime they said they wanted to kill something/someone then there'd be nobody left in the world to say it.


Yep cheers!, again i did'nt even call him an ar****le, I called him one on here!!


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

redginald said:


> Yep cheers!, again i did'nt even call him an ar****le, I called him one on here!!


You've done better than me then. I think I've called Kes a bitch on the odd occasion. I take solace in the fact she doesn't know English though.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Had a family day out today so walked cooper this morning, still a nightmare to get his harness on, and wasnt interested in treats whilst walking so couldnt teach "hide". if a dog wont eat a treat when placed on his tongue then how are you supposed to lure him behind you in a hide position??!

When we got in i took him for a quick walk around the block, didnt use the harness as trying to work out what hes fearful of (the route we have been taking lately/the harness itself/ or walking in general due to any pain) he still hid under the stairs but didnt snap at me putting the lead on. I picked up some different dog treats whilst out and managed to get him to "hide" 10 times, lured into position and treated when behind me for now but the behaviorist said to do this 10 times a day to start with.

Hes been pretty good today, although he managed to drag my daughters new teddy under the dog gate and wasnt going to give it up, we threw a few treats that he picked up and ate with the toy still in his mouth that made a mess, he eventually dropped it to pick up some ham and i got it back, will carry on with some fetch in a bit.

Noticed something else, the other day he was scratching his face with his back foot and yelped, i looked at his paw all seemed ok and saw a small scratch in his hear and put it down to him catching his ear as he was scratching hard. He started scratching his ear alot last night and i managed to get a brief look before he mauled me and there was brown stuff in there, mites?? We have some canaural left from when he had them as a pup so put some in last night and got mauled in the process, will wait until he catches some zzzzzs and put a drop in tonight. Again dont think it will affect his guarding but could be contributing to some irratability and not helping.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

babycham2002 said:


> I think when it gets to the point that you really dislike and resent the dog that much that you should call these people
> 
> Dogue De Bordeaux


In regards to this rescue, they recently put a dog into foster care, the foster carer then flogged the dog for £100 to an unknown off their own back and wont forward the details of his wherabouts. Hence why im getting frustrated, i cant put him through crap like that.


----------



## Guest (Aug 9, 2012)

redginald said:


> In regards to this rescue, they recently put a dog into foster care, the foster carer then flogged the dog for £100 to an unknown off their own back and wont forward the details of his wherabouts. Hence why im getting frustrated, i cant put him through crap like that.


that is awful  thing is with such a ''high value'' breed it`s very difficult to know who to trust


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

diablo said:


> that is awful  thing is with such a ''high value'' breed it`s very difficult to know who to trust


Been following it on FB it has got very ugly to be honest, not nice.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Had a family day out today so walked cooper this morning, still a nightmare to get his harness on, and wasnt interested in treats whilst walking so couldnt teach "hide". if a dog wont eat a treat when placed on his tongue then how are you supposed to lure him behind you in a hide position??!
> 
> When we got in i took him for a quick walk around the block, didnt use the harness as trying to work out what hes fearful of (the route we have been taking lately/the harness itself/ or walking in general due to any pain) he still hid under the stairs but didnt snap at me putting the lead on. I picked up some different dog treats whilst out and managed to get him to "hide" 10 times, lured into position and treated when behind me for now but the behaviorist said to do this 10 times a day to start with.
> 
> ...


If he has brown gunk in his ear it could be mites or an infection, but canural covers both.

If it deffinately mites and you cant get the drops in there is spot ons thats as well as doing fleas does ear and other mites as well so that might be an easier solution otherwise.


----------



## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Just caught up with all of this. So sorry cooper is continuing to be, Erh, a challenge. I think we can all empathise with the 'you little ****' comments, indie gets it a lot, naughty thing, but obviously with the aggression, it's an issue and we SHOULD ALL SUPPORT YOU as you go through th motions of helping him out- you definitely do not need anything negstives coming st you now! Sounds like you continue to do a fab job and persevere, he will get there! And really hold to the 'win' moments, how fab will it feel when you get past another little issue! I can't help but grin when indie comes hurtling back to the whislte after so much work!


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If he has brown gunk in his ear it could be mites or an infection, but canural covers both.
> 
> If it deffinately mites and you cant get the drops in there is spot ons thats as well as doing fleas does ear and other mites as well so that might be an easier solution otherwise.


Nice one cheers, weve got half a bottle so should be good for now. How should you clean the ear afterwards? Hes asleep so my gf is going to have to suspend me from a fishing rod and dangle me over him mission impossible style whilst dropping in an ear drop without waking him up


----------



## tiggerthumper (Apr 22, 2011)

I just wanted to pop on and wish you luck again. They say things get worse before they get better. I also have noticed with my dog, though I know the problems weren't as serious as yours obviously, that things almost happen 'overnight' after lots and lots of training, frustration and him seemingly not getting it, all of a sudden it just clicks, so you never know.
We have a pet shop that I go to often and the owner brings his dogue in and he just sits behind the counter like an angel and when I see him I think of you and hope that you'll have a boy just like him too someday!


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

So sorry to read Coop's still being a bit of a nightmare I hope it's just a case of slow steps & that there will be gradual positive changes to come. Keep us all updated!


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Just wondering, but do you always take things that he has and do you ever give them back after you have treated him? I'm probably misreading it, but it just comes across as he has something and you then use treats to take them away. My older dog quickly worked it out that a piece of chicken meant he would lose whatever he currently had and so despite being food orientated it didn't work. Making something else more interesting that he thought he couldn't have or walking away was the easiest way to get it back until he learnt the give command. I'm sure you will get there and it will be worth it.

My puppy came with ear mites and before the actual ear drops I had to use drops to clean her ears out with cotton wool, leave it to dry, use ear drops and then use cotton wool to get the excess out.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

CockersIndie said:


> Just caught up with all of this. So sorry cooper is continuing to be, Erh, a challenge. I think we can all empathise with the 'you little ****' comments, indie gets it a lot, naughty thing, but obviously with the aggression, it's an issue and we SHOULD ALL SUPPORT YOU as you go through th motions of helping him out- you definitely do not need anything negstives coming st you now! Sounds like you continue to do a fab job and persevere, he will get there! And really hold to the 'win' moments, how fab will it feel when you get past another little issue! I can't help but grin when indie comes hurtling back to the whislte after so much work!





tiggerthumper said:


> I just wanted to pop on and wish you luck again. They say things get worse before they get better. I also have noticed with my dog, though I know the problems weren't as serious as yours obviously, that things almost happen 'overnight' after lots and lots of training, frustration and him seemingly not getting it, all of a sudden it just clicks, so you never know.
> We have a pet shop that I go to often and the owner brings his dogue in and he just sits behind the counter like an angel and when I see him I think of you and hope that you'll have a boy just like him too someday!





simplysardonic said:


> So sorry to read Coop's still being a bit of a nightmare I hope it's just a case of slow steps & that there will be gradual positive changes to come. Keep us all updated!


Thanks!, the thought of a dog that comes to a whistle would be a massive novelty to me!! As for him sitting behind a counter, i follow alot of dogue breeders etc on fb, somebody posted pics of a couple of dogues stood with some rhinos and elephants  makes me sick, if me and coop were there, could imagine he would be hanging off the rhinos throat whilst im pulling a rhino horn out from my a**e :scared:

He just squealed again scratching, glad i spotted his ear


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Tell you what - I take my hat off to you Reg because if I had two little 'uns like you have I'd have shelved Coops long ago, back to the breed rescue I'm afraid. I know when my four were young I was constantly involved with stuff at school, helping with homework, having their friends over for sleep overs etc. and if any of my then dogs had had to have all the attention Coops has had I'd have been hard pushed to fit him in. All the time you spend with him is less with your kids and that must be a very hard to handle, especially as you aren't seeing brilliant results so anyone who feels you are failing should try to remember you are a dad first and dog owner second and are doing a fantastic job.

I absolutely envy folk on here who have model dogs, ones who can go off lead and mix with all and sundry then come back when called. I pass a dog park often, see loads of dogs all playing and rolling around and could cry that mine aren't like that and that I am so isolated, so I just hope people realise what a s**t deal some of us get and none more so than what you are dealing with.

Whether you will ever completely 'get there' is questionable - don't think I will with Flynn, not how I'd like anyway but you're a stayer that's for sure and I feel sure you will continue to do you best until you either crack it or feel you are just not the person Coops needs. I am absolutely sure Flynn could improve no end with someone who isn't as emotional as me but I wouldn't give him up as I have all the time in the world to deal with him. With you I wonder how you cope.


----------



## Lara1988 (Aug 8, 2012)

R.e his ears - I swear by Thornit, one of my dogs was prone to manky mite ears and hated having drops and having his ears wiped. Since using it his had no problems at all.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> Just wondering, but do you always take things that he has and do you ever give them back after you have treated him? I'm probably misreading it, but it just comes across as he has something and you then use treats to take them away. My older dog quickly worked it out that a piece of chicken meant he would lose whatever he currently had and so despite being food orientated it didn't work. Making something else more interesting that he thought he couldn't have or walking away was the easiest way to get it back until he learnt the give command. I'm sure you will get there and it will be worth it.
> 
> My puppy came with ear mites and before the actual ear drops I had to use drops to clean her ears out with cotton wool, leave it to dry, use ear drops and then use cotton wool to get the excess out.


Think youre right, i do give him a toy but he doesnt regard that as a worthy alternative, ive started putting his toys up when hes not playing with them. 
Ie he just stole a towel, i took it off him and threw him his teddy, it just bounced off of his face and he left it there. I do usually treat to distract then offer alternative, when playing fetch he gets his toy back, got to give it time suppose


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Nice one cheers, weve got half a bottle so should be good for now. How should you clean the ear afterwards? Hes asleep so my gf is going to have to suspend me from a fishing rod and dangle me over him mission impossible style whilst dropping in an ear drop without waking him up


Unfortunately cleaning his ears requires touching them and to do it properly putting cleaner in them.

Just had a thought actually and something that might be worth talking to your behaviourist about and thats Tellington touch, its a method of relaxing and getting the dog used to pleasant touches and handling. I use it on the boy wonder here when he is stressed over thunder storms fireworks and sitting in the vets and it works wonders on him. Your behaviourist might even use it herself possibly. Ive linked you just in case you want to read up on it.

Dogs

There is also a tellington touch harness that you dont have to put over the dogs head or life legs either, and has several attachment points, something else may be you could talk to your behavioursist about
Official Tellington TTouch Training Harness Designed by Sarah Fisher | xtradog.com


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Lara1988 said:


> R.e his ears - I swear by Thornit, one of my dogs was prone to manky mite ears and hated having drops and having his ears wiped. Since using it his had no problems at all.





Malmum said:


> Tell you what - I take my hat off to you Reg because if I had two little 'uns like you have I'd have shelved Coops long ago, back to the breed rescue I'm afraid. I know when my four were young I was constantly involved with stuff at school, helping with homework, having their friends over for sleep overs etc. and if any of my then dogs had had to have all the attention Coops has had I'd have been hard pushed to fit him in. All the time you spend with him is less with your kids and that must be a very hard to handle, especially as you aren't seeing brilliant results so anyone who feels you are failing should try to remember you are a dad first and dog owner second and are doing a fantastic job.
> 
> I absolutely envy folk on here who have model dogs, ones who can go off lead and mix with all and sundry then come back when called. I pass a dog park often, see loads of dogs all playing and rolling around and could cry that mine aren't like that and that I am so isolated, so I just hope people realise what a s**t deal some of us get and none more so than what you are dealing with.
> 
> Whether you will ever completely 'get there' is questionable - don't think I will with Flynn, not how I'd like anyway but you're a stayer that's for sure and I feel sure you will continue to do you best until you either crack it or feel you are just not the person Coops needs. I am absolutely sure Flynn could improve no end with someone who isn't as emotional as me but I wouldn't give him up as I have all the time in the world to deal with him. With you I wonder how you cope.


Thanks but i dont cope that well, im under alot of pressure not only from others but also myself, i need to make him "safe" i can live with destruction, pulling, even dog agression but not this. Again some dont seem to understand my wages dont get split between me and my dog, if i could skip a meal or 2 for the sake of him of course i would but i dont have that luxury, i also have my family to look after. Its not like i feed my dog wag and do home surgery on him, hes had a few hundred quid spent on him this month, his vet visit will have to wait, not that the vet will be able to get near him anyway. Anybody who cant appreciatte that can stick it quite frankly, really didnt appreciate earlier posts that suggested i didnt care enough to take him to the vet, below the belt.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Lara1988 said:


> R.e his ears - I swear by Thornit, one of my dogs was prone to manky mite ears and hated having drops and having his ears wiped. Since using it his had no problems at all.


Thanks for the suggestion, i think his problem is he doesn't trust me when i have a handful of treats and am asking him to do something rather than the drops themselves


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Unfortunately cleaning his ears requires touching them and to do it properly putting cleaner in them.
> 
> Just had a thought actually and something that might be worth talking to your behaviourist about and thats Tellington touch, its a method of relaxing and getting the dog used to pleasant touches and handling. I use it on the boy wonder here when he is stressed over thunder storms fireworks and sitting in the vets and it works wonders on him. Your behaviourist might even use it herself possibly. Ive linked you just in case you want to read up on it.
> 
> ...


I will add that to my list, she suggested the perfect fit harness.

Just had another setback, he was on his wrong side when asleep so had to try with him awake, had handfuls of treats but everytime my hand lifted his ear he snapped, i sat with my back against the wall, he came to me and tried to bully the treats off me, his head was in my lap, but every approach was met by a clear Air snap, and if i didnt remove my arms he would get hold of them (ok bite). I did nearly have a drop in with him eating and held his collar to steady him, which resulted in him rolling and biting loads (really didnt hurt at all but backed off) I sat with the treat in closed hand and he kept bothering me for it but wouldnt co operate.Eventually he started jumping up and biting and got hold of my jeans in a very delicate area so at that point he was booted out of the room ( not literally just in case Jessica Fletcher is still reading waiting to pounce on a poorly worded post)

I dread a vet visit, ive taken him to the vet regularly for weighing and they treat him, as advised so hes not scared to go, so ill get him in there but think the vet will be running out :scared:


----------



## Lara1988 (Aug 8, 2012)

Would he let you touch his ears if there are no treats present so his not suspicious?

I've been following your threads, sorry to hear what a handful his being. Hopefully he'll soon turn a corner and you'll see an improvement.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Lara1988 said:


> Would he let you touch his ears if there are no treats present so his not suspicious?
> 
> I've been following your threads, sorry to hear what a handful his being. Hopefully he'll soon turn a corner and you'll see an improvement.


Depends really what mood hes in, im often sat there playing with his ears and floppy face and think "if i had the eardrops on me now!" so i got them earlier and tried to sly them but he clocked them and that was it. (he ripped them out my hand yesterday and had them in his mouth, i ripped them straight back out before he had chance to think, didnt know if they would harm him)


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Justing wondering if some natural calmatives may help, not to drug him up because they dont and they are natural so no side effects, but Im wondering if he is not so uptight and more mellow he will be a bit more responsive to the training and maybe handling. You can get them at vets but they are not drugs so can buy them at on line vet pharmacies and cheaper too. Have a look at these.

http://www.nutri-science.net/pets/pdfs/KalmAid DL.pdf

Zylkène - For life&#39;s ups and downs

Scullcap and Valerian Tablets for Dogs and Cats - Dorwest

Anythings worth a try, they are all safe to use longer term. I used adaptil plug ins and collars on Kobi when he was at his worse too.
Adaptil - The secret to happy dogs - Adaptil

They seemed to help Kobi, but some people say the Adaptil didnt make a difference and some do again cheaper on line then the vets and pets at home.

Though sounds like you could do with it more then the big red Numpty.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Justing wondering if some natural calmatives may help, not to drug him up because they dont and they are natural so no side effects, but Im wondering if he is not so uptight and more mellow he will be a bit more responsive to the training and maybe handling. You can get them at vets but they are not drugs so can buy them at on line vet pharmacies and cheaper too. Have a look at these.
> 
> http://www.nutri-science.net/pets/pdfs/KalmAid DL.pdf
> 
> ...


Will have a look, are they good for human consumption too ??! :arf:


----------



## Lara1988 (Aug 8, 2012)

I used to keep ear drops in my pocket when my Charlie had a mite episode. It made it abit warmer as well so it wasn't so bad if I did manage to get any in. I did feel guilty for catching him unawares. 

He still avoids me now if I have cotton wool balls.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Will have a look, are they good for human consumption too ??! :arf:


Alas no they are dog related, but I could post you some of my happy pills if you want


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Lara1988 said:


> I used to keep ear drops in my pocket when my Charlie had a mite episode. It made it abit warmer as well so it wasn't so bad if I did manage to get any in. I did feel guilty for catching him unawares.
> 
> He still avoids me now if I have cotton wool balls.


One step ahead of you!! but im extra clever and have the lid off aswell for a speedy application.......DOH!! :mad2:


----------



## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Another flipping hassle. Mate it can ONLY get better. I feel your pain....


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Justing wondering if some natural calmatives may help, not to drug him up because they dont and they are natural so no side effects, but Im wondering if he is not so uptight and more mellow he will be a bit more responsive to the training and maybe handling. You can get them at vets but they are not drugs so can buy them at on line vet pharmacies and cheaper too. Have a look at these.
> 
> http://www.nutri-science.net/pets/pdfs/KalmAid DL.pdf
> 
> ...


I have been using Nupafeed 'Stress-Less' (on Kilo, not me :scared and it really has helped: Nupafeed Superior Supplements for Dogs

The company is very helpful and answered my questions - the main one was was there a time limit of how long it could be given; the answer is 'no' and you cannot do harm by giving too much either as excess is excreted.


----------



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Tell you what - I take my hat off to you Reg because if I had two little 'uns like you have I'd have shelved Coops long ago, back to the breed rescue I'm afraid. I know when my four were young I was constantly involved with stuff at school, helping with homework, having their friends over for sleep overs etc. and if any of my then dogs had had to have all the attention Coops has had I'd have been hard pushed to fit him in. All the time you spend with him is less with your kids and that must be a very hard to handle, especially as you aren't seeing brilliant results so anyone who feels you are failing should try to remember you are a dad first and dog owner second and are doing a fantastic job.
> 
> I absolutely envy folk on here who have model dogs, ones who can go off lead and mix with all and sundry then come back when called. I pass a dog park often, see loads of dogs all playing and rolling around and could cry that mine aren't like that and that I am so isolated, so I just hope people realise what a s**t deal some of us get and none more so than what you are dealing with.
> 
> Whether you will ever completely 'get there' is questionable - don't think I will with Flynn, not how I'd like anyway but you're a stayer that's for sure and I feel sure you will continue to do you best until you either crack it or feel you are just not the person Coops needs. I am absolutely sure Flynn could improve no end with someone who isn't as emotional as me but I wouldn't give him up as I have all the time in the world to deal with him. With you I wonder how you cope.


Rep for your wise words

I can relate to you too Malmum

xxx


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I have been using Nupafeed 'Stress-Less' (on Kilo, not me :scared and it really has helped: Nupafeed Superior Supplements for Dogs
> 
> The company is very helpful and answered my questions - the main one was was there a time limit of how long it could be given; the answer is 'no' and you cannot do harm by giving too much either as excess is excreted.


May look into these, i could hang a blow pipe or dart gun up next to our door bell for guests..problem solved!

Been in hospital today so still a bit under the influence, returned to a very bouncy Coop, he stole my dressing gown and got VERY arsey over giving it back. Hes settled down a little now. He was very good on his morning walk and wiggled his whole body tail wagging when he approached a stranger and got fussed, problem is i have to move him on as once excited he could well mouth and jump and may be taken the wrong way by the stranger.

Wont post any more on him today, not in the state of mind to work with him this evening, dso can only expect some attention seeking.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

What happens if you DON'T take the things he steals off him? Does he destroy them? If not then I'd just leave him with them to be honest. Spencer steals for attention and this has been by far the best way of getting on top of it, not much point stealing stuff if I'm going to just ignore him. If he's destructive then can you manage the environment more so that he can't steal things you're bothered about? I know that's probably hard with kids in the house, it's hard enough with just a husband, but personally I think management is going to be a big part of the solution I'm afraid. Chances are you're giving off different signals when he's got something you really don't want him to have than you are when you're not overly bothered or are actually working on the problem. And he will pick up on them. 

Another option is to "change the subject" as it were. Instead of trying to get the object away from him how about trying to get him away from the object? Grabbing his leash and taking him for a quick walk up the street, grabbing a toy and having a fun game by yourself until he comes and joins in, basically anything that's likely to get him to move away from whatever he's got and do something else instead. The one thing to remember with that is that you NEVER lie to him, if you offer a walk then he gets one, even if it's just to the corner and back. If you offer a game he gets one, even if it's just for a few minutes. Generally once they've moved away from the item to do something else they don't mind it being removed.

For the ear drops, could you get them in if you were holding something for him to chew on or lick instead of a handful of treats? Sometimes that can make all the difference. I clicker trained the process of having them put in with Rupert but obviously if he needs treatment now then training him to accept it isn't really an option.


----------



## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

You certainly can. Kids and adolescent dogs know the best times to be pillocks.

Hope you're feeling better soon and Cooper shows some sympathy. Oddly enough he probably would if he was older. When I was having problems Rex (at 2/3ish) was terribly sympathetic; sat beside me, occasional nose nudge, paw on the leg etc. Tess (adolescent at the time) went off and slew some valuables!!

They DO get better. Hold that thought.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> What happens if you DON'T take the things he steals off him? Does he destroy them? If not then I'd just leave him with them to be honest. Spencer steals for attention and this has been by far the best way of getting on top of it, not much point stealing stuff if I'm going to just ignore him. If he's destructive then can you manage the environment more so that he can't steal things you're bothered about? I know that's probably hard with kids in the house, it's hard enough with just a husband, but personally I think management is going to be a big part of the solution I'm afraid. Chances are you're giving off different signals when he's got something you really don't want him to have than you are when you're not overly bothered or are actually working on the problem. And he will pick up on them.
> 
> Another option is to "change the subject" as it were. Instead of trying to get the object away from him how about trying to get him away from the object? Grabbing his leash and taking him for a quick walk up the street, grabbing a toy and having a fun game by yourself until he comes and joins in, basically anything that's likely to get him to move away from whatever he's got and do something else instead. The one thing to remember with that is that you NEVER lie to him, if you offer a walk then he gets one, even if it's just to the corner and back. If you offer a game he gets one, even if it's just for a few minutes. Generally once they've moved away from the item to do something else they don't mind it being removed.
> 
> For the ear drops, could you get them in if you were holding something for him to chew on or lick instead of a handful of treats? Sometimes that can make all the difference. I clicker trained the process of having them put in with Rupert but obviously if he needs treatment now then training him to accept it isn't really an option.


Very good points I agree with this, Kobi when young used to nick the remote and run off when he wanted attention or was bored. So I beat him at his own game. We had a old sky remote that we didnt use and had seen better days,
so I kept the good one out of sight and the stooge one no batteries in full view. I ignored him when he got it at first and it soon lost the appeal when he realised it didnt get a chase me game or attention. He still run off with it for a while but he soon discarded it when it didnt get the desired effect. I then went one better and actually taught him to retrieve it and bring it back, and he only got a treat when he brought it back and gave it to me, he soon realised bringing it back and giving it was more productive.

Could you maybe discuss with your behavioursit a similar thing, putting the kids toys well out of his way, but maybe buying some cheap toys from charity shops as stooges to use, and then doing what I did. if the kids walk around with them for a bit and then discard them he wont know the difference but you and the kids will. Try a bit of reverse physcology maybe.

The licking ideas brilliant too, have you tried the primula cheese spread in tubes that you can get bits of ham and allsorts in it, I think you can even get liver paste in tubes too. usually most dogs once a bits squeezed out become a bit obsessive licking and trying to get more out the tube. You could try it for the ear drops, or probably better still get him used to touching his body and just lightly touching his ears first before you try the drops or have them in your hand. There is quite a few tellington touch movements on you tube if you look maybe you could look them up and try a few whilst he is licking the tube. or just for the first couple of times just get him interested in the tube first to see if it works.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> What happens if you DON'T take the things he steals off him? Does he destroy them? If not then I'd just leave him with them to be honest. Spencer steals for attention and this has been by far the best way of getting on top of it, not much point stealing stuff if I'm going to just ignore him. If he's destructive then can you manage the environment more so that he can't steal things you're bothered about? I know that's probably hard with kids in the house, it's hard enough with just a husband, but personally I think management is going to be a big part of the solution I'm afraid. Chances are you're giving off different signals when he's got something you really don't want him to have than you are when you're not overly bothered or are actually working on the problem. And he will pick up on them.
> 
> Another option is to "change the subject" as it were. Instead of trying to get the object away from him how about trying to get him away from the object? Grabbing his leash and taking him for a quick walk up the street, grabbing a toy and having a fun game by yourself until he comes and joins in, basically anything that's likely to get him to move away from whatever he's got and do something else instead. The one thing to remember with that is that you NEVER lie to him, if you offer a walk then he gets one, even if it's just to the corner and back. If you offer a game he gets one, even if it's just for a few minutes. Generally once they've moved away from the item to do something else they don't mind it being removed.
> 
> For the ear drops, could you get them in if you were holding something for him to chew on or lick instead of a handful of treats? Sometimes that can make all the difference. I clicker trained the process of having them put in with Rupert but obviously if he needs treatment now then training him to accept it isn't really an option.


He does normally chew to destruction, there s bits of that tennis ball all over the floor that i wasn't bothered about, i showed him no signs of urgency that i wanted it back but he still stood his ground and chewed it to a pulp. Good ideas though, sometimes if he decides an item is "his" thats it, he really gives you little to work with, he shows no interest in anything you have to exchange, when trying fetch sometimes he decides thats it, im just chewing it, he will even put his head between my legs if im sat on the floor, and "taunt" me with it, iv'e watched him let it roll out of his mouth but as soon as my hands go in for a swap, he's VERY direct and quickly snatches it back, in ths scenario i just go away and take the treats away too, sometimes i get the reaction i want (he walks up to me and drops) but normally he just keeps chewing it.

I like the idea of changing the subject, tbh that's the only method that really works, it seems if he never really gives anything up consciously, you have to "surprise" him by arriving with a massivly high reward such as meat, or distract him so he forgets he's in "Guard" mode so to speak .

Just did it then, he stole some tweasers :scared: I didn't know what he had and said "what you got coop"  he looked at me and i saw he had tweasers, rather than flap in a panic i carried on calmly as if not bothered, then went and grabbed his bone and started throwing against a chair and catching it, he took interest then threw it and said fetch, he didn't fetch but the tweesers dropped out of his mouth and he turned, i grabbed the tweesers and when he turned round he was like :confused1: i gave him the bone, he then went off looking for other valubles to chew.


ozrex said:


> You certainly can. Kids and adolescent dogs know the best times to be pillocks.
> 
> Hope you're feeling better soon and Cooper shows some sympathy. Oddly enough he probably would if he was older. When I was having problems Rex (at 2/3ish) was terribly sympathetic; sat beside me, occasional nose nudge, paw on the leg etc. Tess (adolescent at the time) went off and slew some valuables!!
> 
> They DO get better. Hold that thought.


I hope so, i think alot of the jumping up and mouthing will drop a little naturally, but his guarding im not so sure.

He's terrible sometimes, he jumps and bites, you turn your back, he bites your legs, and pet him when on all fours. When you walk off he runs n front of you jumps and bites again ( it doesn't hurt, the scratching does but not the biting)

Lindsay and Diesel on here (Diesel is coops brother) have just bought another DDB pup things are going so well with them, they have kids too, it's really frustrating


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Very good points I agree with this, Kobi when young used to nick the remote and run off when he wanted attention or was bored. So I beat him at his own game. We had a old sky remote that we didnt use and had seen better days,
> so I kept the good one out of sight and the stooge one no batteries in full view. I ignored him when he got it at first and it soon lost the appeal when he realised it didnt get a chase me game or attention. He still run off with it for a while but he soon discarded it when it didnt get the desired effect. I then went one better and actually taught him to retrieve it and bring it back, and he only got a treat when he brought it back and gave it to me, he soon realised bringing it back and giving it was more productive.
> 
> Could you maybe discuss with your behavioursit a similar thing, putting the kids toys well out of his way, but maybe buying some cheap toys from charity shops as stooges to use, and then doing what I did. if the kids walk around with them for a bit and then discard them he wont know the difference but you and the kids will. Try a bit of reverse physcology maybe.
> ...


Somebody suggested Primula on here before for teaching walk to heel, it worked really well for us but think it upset his stomach  may try liver paste though!

There are plenty of toys in our loft..and shed...and their room that could be donated for this, will run it by her.

I had him eating a long chew treat whilst ear dropping yesterday, he licked it frantically, but also threw the odd bite out at me aswell. Im not 100% but i think when he really snaps it's normally directed at the item ie collar, eardrops bottle but gets my hands aswell if they are in the way.

He can be lead on my lap, i can touch his ears, touch his collar, play with his ears, turn them inside out, he seems really comfortable with me tbh, he seems to be able to read me like a book and anything sinister he's a different dog.
(I know i moan alot, but im not scared of him as such, im really comfortable with him when he's settled and will sit with my head against his, i say he's nervy but his general body language when indoors suggests otherwise, he's pushy, often looking for attention, if he were human you would say he's a bully, he's not like the dogs you see that generally sit cowering all the time, he does seem the latter when brushes, eardrops, headcollars etc are thrown in the mix)


----------



## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Well it's NOT you Redginald. Cooper is just more difficult than Diesel. God knows I was FAR more difficult than my younger sister... ask anyone who knew us.

I don't know that it works for difficult humans but difficult dogs CAN be turned around and I honestly think you'll be able to do it for Cooper. You've done heaps for him already just by starting to use a good behaviourist and by talking to people on here so honestly; and it's blindingly obvious that you care.

Sometimes the hardest dog that you've ever owned is the dog of your heart.

I used to know a man who had a GSD bitch that was an utter nightmare. At one stage he had to keep her tied to the table so she didn't destroy the house. She was bred from working lines and he had her because he wanted to compete in obedience with her. She was hell on a stick. She did end up competing and living in a house like a normal dog but she was always a handful and needed to work hard or she went nuts. I'm not saying Cooper is anything like her, he isn't. The point that I'm belabouring is that Ted adored his GSD bitch ( hated her at times in the early days) and still misses her. She became the dog of his life; if that makes sense.

Sometimes the real b*ggers are such awesome characters.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Somebody suggested Primula on here before for teaching walk to heel, it worked really well for us but think it upset his stomach  may try liver paste though!
> 
> There are plenty of toys in our loft..and shed...and their room that could be donated for this, will run it by her.
> 
> ...


Kobi used to be like that though, when he was younger now I can put eye drops in, groom him, although when he gets fed up after a bit because he has a hell of a coat, I just stuff a Kong with cheap chicken to do the last bit and then he cant care less what Im doing or how long it takes he is so engrossed in the Kong. Stress free for him and he stays put and makes it easier to finish off grooming him, plus makes a good association with grooming anyway. In the begining I had to give him a Kong at the start, now I can do a lot with him just happy for me to do it, and if I havent quite finished then I just give him the Kong if he gets fed up. He hated the vets, now he cant wait to get in there, even in the consulting room, he even stood good as gold while they syringed off several lots of pus from the abcess that formed beause of the injection he had after the OP the other week.

If was just a thought as I said beating Kobi at his own game with nicking stuff worked with him.

Like the Kong worked for grooming Maybe something like the tube of stuff thats going to hold his attention will get him used to being touched and examined and finally putting in things like ear drops and stuff.

Its all worked on him and he turned out fine in the end, so worth discussing with the behaviourist or mentioning. You know how bad Kobi was, think he was even worse then Coops, just takes time and a lot of patience though.
You will make progress and then get a bad day here and there, but as you go along you will find the better days get more and the bad days get less and less until finally they dissapear altogether. A lot of its his age too probably dont forget its not the greatest age.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

ozrex said:


> Well it's NOT you Redginald. Cooper is just more difficult than Diesel. God knows I was FAR more difficult than my younger sister... ask anyone who knew us.
> 
> I don't know that it works for difficult humans but difficult dogs CAN be turned around and I honestly think you'll be able to do it for Cooper. You've done heaps for him already just by starting to use a good behaviourist and by talking to people on here so honestly; and it's blindingly obvious that you care.
> 
> ...


He's certainly got alot of charater !!, I can remember when we 1st got him, he was good as gold, when asked about him we would reply he's really boring compared to Redd when he was a small pup, he just eats and sleeps :mad2: me and my mouth


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ozrex said:


> Well it's NOT you Redginald. Cooper is just more difficult than Diesel. God knows I was FAR more difficult than my younger sister... ask anyone who knew us.
> 
> I don't know that it works for difficult humans but difficult dogs CAN be turned around and I honestly think you'll be able to do it for Cooper. You've done heaps for him already just by starting to use a good behaviourist and by talking to people on here so honestly; and it's blindingly obvious that you care.
> 
> ...


Couldnt agree more Kobi was terrible when a pup and young with his problems but he is my heart dog now, when you go through it, and come out the other end there is nothing in the world like it. He darn well taught me a lot in the process as well.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Kobi used to be like that though, when he was younger now I can put eye drops in, groom him, although when he gets fed up after a bit because he has a hell of a coat, I just stuff a Kong with cheap chicken to do the last bit and then he cant care less what Im doing or how long it takes he is so engrossed in the Kong. Stress free for him and he stays put and makes it easier to finish off grooming him, plus makes a good association with grooming anyway. In the begining I had to give him a Kong at the start, now I can do a lot with him just happy for me to do it, and if I havent quite finished then I just give him the Kong if he gets fed up. He hated the vets, now he cant wait to get in there, even in the consulting room, he even stood good as gold while they syringed off several lots of pus from the abcess that formed beause of the injection he had after the OP the other week.
> 
> If was just a thought as I said beating Kobi at his own game with nicking stuff worked with him.
> 
> ...


I will say to her about the steeling, i want to persavere with him, may look into claiming for the behaviorist on insurance, she did seem very helpful but im the kind of person who needs alot of nudging in the right direction :arf: that way if she thinks she needs to visit x amount of times it won't be as much a financial worry aswell 
Did manage the 10 "hides" on his walk this morning :thumbup:


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

On another note, pinched the pic of the DDB flown to his new home in the states, and the DDBS with the rhino :scared:


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

What does Coops want with tweezers me asks?  Hope he's got a mirror too as he can have accidents.

To be honest he seems to manage to get hold of the most obscure things and I wonder how that happens because you know he steals stuff yet he gets things on a regular basis. Now I hear you say you can't keep everything out of his reach but I have three big dogs, all capable of nicking stuff and as youngsters ate a few toys, sock etc so I was no angel but things like tweezers - no way are they ever within reach. I think with adolescent dogs just as with young children you have to live a minimalistic life for a couple of years with hardly anything in sight/reach - it's called 'forestalling trouble' and I learned all about that from Dr Hugh Jolly and his Book Of Child Care. Great man he was and helped me with raising dogs too, lol.

If Coops can't steal it you don't have a problem. - simples!


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Malmum said:


> What does Coops want with tweezers me asks?  Hope he's got a mirror too as he can have accidents.
> 
> To be honest he seems to manage to get hold of the most obscure things and I wonder how that happens because you know he steals stuff yet he gets things on a regular basis. Now I hear you say you can't keep everything out of his reach but I have three big dogs, all capable of nicking stuff and as youngsters ate a few toys, sock etc so I was no angel but things like tweezers - no way are they ever within reach. I think with adolescent dogs just as with young children you have to live a minimalistic life for a couple of years with hardly anything in sight/reach - it's called 'forestalling trouble' and I learned all about that from Dr Hugh Jolly and his Book Of Child Care. Great man he was and helped me with raising dogs too, lol.
> 
> If Coops can't steal it you don't have a problem. - simples!


I believe my gf was grooming and went off upstairs, tweasers left in a fold on the sofa, nothing gets past him. I take on board what your saying about space managment. 
He shouldnt have been able to get the tweesers.

Come pay day stag bars are on the shopping list, they sell them in pah now and they look like something he would enjoy chewing, His favourite "parts" of the house to eat are the stairs, window sill, tv unit and chairs.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Managed 10 "hides" on his walk today (actually done about 15 but nobody likes a show off  ) he puts him self at about 4/5 o clock when told "hide" aswell

Hes been boisterous again tonight, he got frustrated when i held treats in a closed hand when training and started jumping and biting me, he bit my hand in a tendon and can't close it now  (it was more of a tooth dragging on my hand rather than a closed mouth that did it but even so) 

Been watching him with the kids this eve and he is pretty good really with them, my boys a nightmare and will put his hand in his face to push coop away if he bothers him, and coop will just turn away, he doesn't react to the kids, but can start getting boisterous f they start flapping about but to be expected to a certain extent and normally keep them apart n this situation.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Managed 10 "hides" on his walk today (actually done about 15 but nobody likes a show off  ) he puts him self at about 4/5 o clock when told "hide" aswell
> 
> Hes been boisterous again tonight, he got frustrated when i held treats in a closed hand when training and started jumping and biting me, he bit my hand in a tendon and can't close it now  (it was more of a tooth dragging on my hand rather than a closed mouth that did it but even so)
> 
> Been watching him with the kids this eve and he is pretty good really with them, my boys a nightmare and will put his hand in his face to push coop away if he bothers him, and coop will just turn away, he doesn't react to the kids, but can start getting boisterous f they start flapping about but to be expected to a certain extent and normally keep them apart n this situation.


Great news his training went well today and he is getting the hang of it.
Maybe you should do 2 or 3 10/15 minute sessions a day, going through the basic obdience exercises and making him work for his treats, it usually occupys their brain as well when they get bored and it would mean also he is working and doing as you ask more for his treats.

Dogs and kids especially when both are young so seem to set each other off, if the kids are are over active then dogs tend to be, if the kids are fractious they tend to start too, probably they bounce off each other.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

redginald said:


> Hes been boisterous again tonight, he got frustrated when i held treats in a closed hand when training and started jumping and biting me, he bit my hand in a tendon and can't close it now  (it was more of a tooth dragging on my hand rather than a closed mouth that did it but even so)


I feel for you on this one. Treats in closed hand was an impulse control exercise I did with my little foodie. When she stopped bothering the hand, it opened and she was given a treat. The first session my hand was dug at quite comprehensively..... the second session I wore the gauntlet I wear pruning the roses   We got there in the end.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> I feel for you on this one. Treats in closed hand was an impulse control exercise I did with my little foodie. When she stopped bothering the hand, it opened and she was given a treat. The first session my hand was dug at quite comprehensively..... the second session I wore the gauntlet I wear pruning the roses   We got there in the end.


Same here - horribly painful at first :scared:. Funny thing is, backing off anything, even toys is an 'ask' for Kilo now!


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Great news his training went well today and he is getting the hang of it.
> Maybe you should do 2 or 3 10/15 minute sessions a day, going through the basic obdience exercises and making him work for his treats, it usually occupys their brain as well when they get bored and it would mean also he is working and doing as you ask more for his treats.
> 
> Dogs and kids especially when both are young so seem to set each other off, if the kids are are over active then dogs tend to be, if the kids are fractious they tend to start too, probably they bounce off each other.


We do go through some basics daily with him, hes been feeding from his kong since the behaviorist too, we are seeing a little more sleepy time now :thumbup:


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> I feel for you on this one. Treats in closed hand was an impulse control exercise I did with my little foodie. When she stopped bothering the hand, it opened and she was given a treat. The first session my hand was dug at quite comprehensively..... the second session I wore the gauntlet I wear pruning the roses   We got there in the end.





Dogless said:


> Same here - horribly painful at first :scared:. Funny thing is, backing off anything, even toys is an 'ask' for Kilo now!


Thing is he can do the control exercise well, today he was being asked to fetch and he was a little unsure (my fault) but he kept walking to the ball and coming back to me but wouldnt pick it up, i kept my hand shut and encouraged him to pick it up , he got fed up and decked me instead  he sometimes does this if he knows i have treats and gets impatient.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

redginald said:


> Thing is he can do the control exercise well, today he was being asked to fetch and he was a little unsure (my fault) but he kept walking to the ball and coming back to me but wouldnt pick it up, i kept my hand shut and encouraged him to pick it up , he got fed up and decked me instead  he sometimes does this if he knows i have treats and gets impatient.


Does he definitely understand what it is that you want him to do when you encourage him to pick up the ball? Kilo will lose control a bit when frustrated - he gets stressed when he doesn't have a clear idea.


----------



## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

What do you feed him on? If it's dry you could try one of these

Dog Pyramid Boredom Breakers (Excluding Kongs) for Sale

When indie was really over zealous with he puppy biting and generally being difficult, the trainer recommended feeding out of one of these. It absolutely worked and I still use it at least a couple of times a week for stimulation  would cooper be interested I guess is the question?

Eta- not saying it will be a magic cure, just that it worked for us and passing on


----------



## Big bully (Aug 7, 2012)

Oh my bloody good god!! I have a 12 month male Bullmastiff who is Your twinn!!! Thought I just got really unlucky with Big Red but it would seem I'm not alone! It is enough to try the very calmest of souls! Bloody good job I love him so much, nearly as much as he as cost me,,,:mad2:


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Does he definitely understand what it is that you want him to do when you encourage him to pick up the ball? Kilo will lose control a bit when frustrated - he gets stressed when he doesn't have a clear idea.


No he's not 100% but surely everytime you train a new thing you go through a period where the dog has to learn what he has to do (if that makes sense) ie when 1st teaching to sit they don't sit every time to start with but when they do sit hes rewarded. In fairness i do have to go back to basics with fetch with him, a few times he's fetched, brung and dropped and been rewarded heavily, but i need to break it down for him, (when i say good boy for picking it up, he instantly drops it) Its alot easier with a lab!!


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

CockersIndie said:


> What do you feed him on? If it's dry you could try one of these
> 
> Dog Pyramid Boredom Breakers (Excluding Kongs) for Sale
> 
> ...


Cheers we have got a kong wobbler that does the trick!! he is fed all his meals from it


----------



## totallypets (Dec 30, 2011)

How are his ears now? Did you see this post - it might give you some ideas on ways to get him used to ear drops or other procedures in future.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...-vid-help-my-dog-hates-medical-treatment.html

When you've finished the bottle or if you have a similar empty bottle you could use that to de-sensitise him.

Like Sled Dog said I'd get some items that he can steal. Make them interesting by using them, leave them where he'll get them easily and then if he gives them back for treats you can give it back as a bonus reward and then practice releasing for treats and returning.

You are putting so much effort into Cooper, you should be very proud even if he isn't coming on a quickly as you'd like.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Big bully said:


> Oh my bloody good god!! I have a 12 month male Bullmastiff who is Your twinn!!! Thought I just got really unlucky with Big Red but it would seem I'm not alone! It is enough to try the very calmest of souls! Bloody good job I love him so much, nearly as much as he as cost me,,,:mad2:


Unlucky!! like our behaviorist said, his temperment wouldn't be an issue if he was a chihuauha 

He sometimes gets on the back of the sofa like a cat  he was sat behind me causing mischief, i pulled him down but he fell on me, iv'e just been sat with my face crushed against the sofa bum cushion, with his bum (his actual bum) sat squashing the side of my head :scared:


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

totallypets said:


> How are his ears now? Did you see this post - it might give you some ideas on ways to get him used to ear drops or other procedures in future.
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...-vid-help-my-dog-hates-medical-treatment.html
> 
> ...


Thanks, the bottle ideas a good one, beats my super soaker and laser sight idea :aureola:

His ears still gunky, forgot to do it last night, and messed up a perfect opportunity earlier and got it everywhere, it's definately affecting him as he scratched and yelped earlier. Will look at this thread thanks


----------



## Big bully (Aug 7, 2012)

redginald said:


> Unlucky!! like our behaviorist said, his temperment wouldn't be an issue if he was a chihuauha
> 
> He sometimes gets on the back of the sofa like a cat  he was sat behind me causing mischief, i pulled him down but he fell on me, iv'e just been sat with my face crushed against the sofa bum cushion, with his bum (his actual bum) sat squashing the side of my head :scared:


Pmsl...... Not funny really but I've reached the stage where I just have to laugh! I have a bitch of the same breed, talk about chalk and cheese she is an angel compared to super ********, which by the way had he not just qualified for crufts would be loosing!!!:scared:


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Unlucky!! like our behaviorist said, his temperment wouldn't be an issue if he was a chihuauha
> 
> He sometimes gets on the back of the sofa like a cat  he was sat behind me causing mischief, i pulled him down but he fell on me, iv'e just been sat with my face crushed against the sofa bum cushion, with his bum (his actual bum) sat squashing the side of my head :scared:


What would we do though without coppers antics, the forum would be a much duller place.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

totallypets said:


> How are his ears now? Did you see this post - it might give you some ideas on ways to get him used to ear drops or other procedures in future.
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...-vid-help-my-dog-hates-medical-treatment.html
> 
> ...


The vid on that thread is very helpful, noticed more on de sensatising to muzzles i must watch, as would be helpful for him and his harness.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Very frustrating, can fully understand why its worth de sensatising to stuff like eardrop bottles etc.

Sat for about 45mins went through a whole tray and more of treats sat with the bottle, clicking coop for eye contact, touching his ear clicking, eventually moving the bottle beside his ear clicking and treating. Eventually i had the opportunity, his ear inside out bottle along side it, let him loose on an open palm full of ham and squirted it in  but of course in doing so i have lost his trust again, now i cant touch his ears without him grabbing my arm. Should have waited until he was asleep.

May sound a stupid question but do dogs recognise a person licking their lips or yawning as a calming signal??


----------



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

redginald said:


> Very frustrating, can fully understand why its worth de sensatising to stuff like eardrop bottles etc.
> 
> Sat for about 45mins went through a whole tray and more of treats sat with the bottle, clicking coop for eye contact, touching his ear clicking, eventually moving the bottle beside his ear clicking and treating. Eventually i had the opportunity, his ear inside out bottle along side it, let him loose on an open palm full of ham and squirted it in  but of course in doing so i have lost his trust again, now i cant touch his ears without him grabbing my arm. Should have waited until he was asleep.
> 
> *May sound a stupid question but do dogs recognise a person licking their lips or yawning as a calming signal??*


*
*

I am not sure, but I know people have trained their dogs to follow their direction their eyes are.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

dandogman said:


> [/B]
> 
> I am not sure, but I know people have trained their dogs to follow their direction their eyes are.


Reason i say it is the other day he hid under the stairs when putting on his harness, rather than corner him i sat in the kitchen with the harness calling him, he was looking at me suspicouslly and licking his lips, he was tipping his head side to side working me out, dont know why but i yawned and sat licking my lips :arf: and he got up and approached me, the same happened the other day, instead i was sst out the front of the house calling him and the same happened, coincidence :confused1:


----------



## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't think it is a coincidence. I've always thought Rex responded to those signals when I use them.

I'm not sure Tess does. 

Rex watches me intently, Tess watches whichever hand she suspects of holding food. Rex works for a "Good dog" and a cheek stroke. Tess works for food. Rex watches me for any kind of indication that I might want him to do something. Tess offers her best "recalls", "drops", whatever in the hopes of food.... She's only rewarded intermittently but still needs some kind of "payment system".

Maybe you've got the makings of a good dog there. Rex is brilliant except for a slight tendency to murder other dogs.....

You just have to survive the early uglies. Hang in there!


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

redginald said:


> I believe my gf was grooming and went off upstairs, tweasers left in a fold on the sofa, nothing gets past him. I take on board what your saying about space managment.
> He shouldnt have been able to get the tweesers.
> 
> Come pay day stag bars are on the shopping list, they sell them in pah now and they look like something he would enjoy chewing, His favourite "parts" of the house to eat are the stairs, window sill, tv unit and chairs.


Goodness you have a right 'little' imp there don't you? We all know how hard pups are at that adolescent stage - much the same as kids with the 'terrible two's' but your boy seems like he's out purely to get you, like he's pushing your patience to the extreme, lol!

I have always thoroughly enjoyed my 'terrible two's' and my adolescent stage pups finding just enjoying their antics, tantrums and general 'bratishness' we managed to sail through every stage - I loved all of it and knew it wouldn't last long so made the most of it. I found Teebs was the most trying of them all and had right little bitey tantrums which at first concerned us but once we realised he was just 'being a kid' and looked at it from a different point of view things started improving. We all stopped being so serious about the biting - he was small after all so not such a concern as if it were the Mals - once we realised that offering a swap if we wanted him to give up something and not seeming desperate that he do as he was told he began to fit in more. I think learning by example with the other guys definitely helped and that is a huge bonus in having a multiple dog household I suppose. Flynn still keeps me on my toes sometimes but generally he's an angel and still as funny as when he was a youngster, it's just MY dog reactions that I find hard to deal with but as a youngster we used to laugh at his naughtiness and rarely got annoyed - same with my kids.

I sometimes wonder if Coops senses your urgency, your wanting him to give up something he ultimately wants to keep. I would put him to the test, make sure you and your partner leave NOTHING around he shouldn't have but place things he can have in various places, like work surface, table, window sill, on the bed etc, purposefully for him to steal and when he does IGNORE HIM! He seems to be getting quite a lot of attention by acting how he does and I can see he gets things that may br dangerous for him and that's why you'd have to be vigillant and make sure nothing is left in view.

Set him up as an experiment to see if he tires of this 'game' once he realises you don't give a damn about what he's stealing and instead of 'what's that Coops' just say 'good boy Coops' turn your back and see if that makes a difference. I would keep a collar and grab line on him for those times you need to usher him somewhee but I would mainly use verbal to get him to move because some breeds, Mals included just will not be physically moved - even if it's done nicely. If he can't be persuaded with treats I'd stop feeding him in a bowl and use his meal time food as treats instead, if he's hungry he's likely to work better.

Lastly has he ever had a crate? I never ever thought my then nutty Flynn would ever had liked a crate but after a couple of days leaving the door open and throwing treats in there (Coops dinner kibble ) he loved it, so did Marty, Kali, Bruce and Britches. None were put in with the door closed at first and the boys are both 60kgs but neither struggled to get out because the crate was introduced properly.

Just wonder if Coops is so smart he knows how to wind you up since some of the things you say sounds like he's doing just that. Like I said previously don't let him steal things you don't want him to have, put everything away as soon as you've used it. It's only for s few months and hopefully with no conflict in the house you can turn him around. Kids are far more of a challenge yet you've managed with them so you can manage to do it with Coops too. Chill out and let him think you don't care, that's how I'd treat him just to see!

Either that or get him a playmate, lol!


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

redginald said:


> Very frustrating, can fully understand why its worth de sensatising to stuff like eardrop bottles etc.
> 
> Sat for about 45mins went through a whole tray and more of treats sat with the bottle, clicking coop for eye contact, touching his ear clicking, eventually moving the bottle beside his ear clicking and treating. Eventually i had the opportunity, his ear inside out bottle along side it, let him loose on an open palm full of ham and squirted it in  but of course in doing so i have lost his trust again, now i cant touch his ears without him grabbing my arm. Should have waited until he was asleep.
> 
> May sound a stupid question but do dogs recognise a person licking their lips or yawning as a calming signal??


What did you do the moment you squirted the bottle? there are very few dogs (or people that would enjoy that sensation) When I've had to do things of that nature *as* I squeeze the bottle I praise like they've just started laying golden eggs. so they get both things, drops and huge happy praise, simultaneously and then it's over, straight into something they enjoy for a while.

Personally I wouldn't recommend trying to put them in when he's sleeping, the possibilty of a rude awakening and his reaction maybe stronger.

Whether they recognise it as a calming signal in the samae way they do with a dog, i couldn't say for sure, but closing the eyes( like you do when you yawn) or slow blinking or turning away and back will break the stare if you are watching intently and that certainly is less confrontational.

You know something, Cooper is one hell of a teacher... look how much you have learned since your first posts about him.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

redginald said:


> No he's not 100% but surely everytime you train a new thing you go through a period where the dog has to learn what he has to do (if that makes sense) ie when 1st teaching to sit they don't sit every time to start with but when they do sit hes rewarded. In fairness i do have to go back to basics with fetch with him, a few times he's fetched, brung and dropped and been rewarded heavily, but i need to break it down for him, (when i say good boy for picking it up, he instantly drops it) Its alot easier with a lab!!


I understand that - phrased my question badly I think. What I was trying to get at is that maybe you were asking for too much at once rather than breaking it down into baby steps or spending a tiny amount of time on it. If Kilo gets that frustrated with something I sort of go back and ask for something much easier that he can do so he gains confidence again and revisit the harder thing later.



redginald said:


> May sound a stupid question but do dogs recognise a person licking their lips or yawning as a calming signal??


Turid Rugaas reckons so - not sure if you have seen this book, but it's excellent: On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

Some good stuff here too: Turid Rugaas - Calming Signals Community


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I feel your pain, cos at this age with Zak, I was crying over the fence to the neighbour. At two, he is adorable (but da, our fault for keeping him on a lead due to hd and not properly socialising him with other dogs). Persist, it will be worth it.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Reason i say it is the other day he hid under the stairs when putting on his harness, rather than corner him i sat in the kitchen with the harness calling him, he was looking at me suspicouslly and licking his lips, he was tipping his head side to side working me out, dont know why but i yawned and sat licking my lips :arf: and he got up and approached me, the same happened the other day, instead i was sst out the front of the house calling him and the same happened, coincidence :confused1:


Your not going mad it does work, also try letting out a contented sigh and trying instead of going to him face and body straight on approaching body side on and head turned away to the side, they are also calming/non confrontational body language as well. I use it on Kobi and he works.
I use it a lot but because its automatic and something I dont think about I never even thought of mentioning it before.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

It did work then :arf: :Yawn:

His body language is very different to the dog in that video, although he is nervy of the bottle he also really wants the treats, he starts performing every thing he knows ie sits, rolls but any approach to the ear and he opens his mouth snd grabs arm. He doesn't sit thrre all meek 

His body language is similar when faced with the hsrness though, he then attempts to avoid, and gives lip licks etc, i will use this method with the harness as hes easier to read.

when i dropped in the drops i gave him loads of ham and fussed but appeared to make no difference in him not enjoying the experience.


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My puppy cried badly and struggled when I put drops in her ears and I used to have chicken for before and afterwards. It is a lot easier with a yorkie! I wrapped her in a blanket and could hold her with just one hand. It made her head shy for a while, but with lots of treats she got over it.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> It did work then :arf: :Yawn:
> 
> His body language is very different to the dog in that video, although he is nervy of the bottle he also really wants the treats, he starts performing every thing he knows ie sits, rolls but any approach to the ear and he opens his mouth snd grabs arm. He doesn't sit thrre all meek
> 
> ...


Might be you are missing submissive signs that he does first, so in the end he goes to threats. Or because you have missed submissive signs and signs of discomfort and that he is unsure of a situation in the past he doesnt bother and goes to more threatening things to say he isnt comfortable now its a possibility.

Submissive or non threatening signs, apeasement whatever you want to call them are usually things, like yawning, lip or muzzle licking, might even be licking you, Looking away adverting his eyes and turning his head away slowly, Lowering head and body, there is even a submissive grin, they draw lips back and show some teeth but the jaws are closed not open. Even rolling on their backs lifting a leg and exposing tum and bits is submissive, sometimes approaching you crouched and body low with tail down or tucked and trying to lick is submissive.

if none of that defuses things or is ignored then they go to more threatening behaviour like Growls Inhibited bites, putting jaws around arms and things but they dont close or bite down, staring and maintaining eye contact is a threat. Air snaps the same, then if these things are still ignored the threats can get more and more heavy duty until finally a proper bite even.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I did see alot of what you mentioned, he rolls on his back alot too. I was clicking the signs i saw snd rewarding, until he seemed more comfortable snd gave eye contact and moved on, when 1st moving hand towards ear he would wstch my hand open mouth, i would click and move back until he let me touch his ear.

The body language is interesting, when he goes to bed i always stroke him for a couple of mins to say goodnight, ive noticed when i do this he appeared happy but he does lick his lips alot, is it worth ditting with thr clicker and marking the signs he gives me. (hes obviously is uncomfortable with me petting him in his bed under the stairs, he never has resorted to agression but i guess if i bother him and hes not comfy one day he may feel the need to)


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

redginald said:


> I did see alot of what you mentioned, he rolls on his back alot too. I was clicking the signs i saw snd rewarding, until he seemed more comfortable snd gave eye contact and moved on, when 1st moving hand towards ear he would wstch my hand open mouth, i would click and move back until he let me touch his ear.
> 
> The body language is interesting, when he goes to bed i always stroke him for a couple of mins to say goodnight, ive noticed when i do this he appeared happy but he does lick his lips alot, is it worth ditting with thr clicker and marking the signs he gives me. (hes obviously is uncomfortable with me petting him in his bed under the stairs, he never has resorted to agression but i guess if i bother him and hes not comfy one day he may feel the need to)


I wonder if John Rogerson's Dog Vinci Code book would help you out with coop to some extent, after reading it myself (after feeling like mine and Kes' bond was not the greatest) and changing my attitude and how I act with her she's become a lot more attached and eager to please me.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

This may help Sarah Fisher Tellington touch demo, might explain a few things and give you some ideas and explains things better then just text. You will also be able to see on there, the difference in how the dog likes certain touches in some areas and responds and how in others he is not comfortable and what he is telling you then and how she then goes back to the other areas he is comfortable with and how he then settles again and relaxes. Its all about building a bond and trust and getting the dog used to being touched so that it is a pleasureable experience.

Sarah Fisher from TTouch UK introduces TTouch - YouTube

The thing is you have to be very careful what you are treating for as you can inadvertently reward the wrong behaviours an re-enforce them, timing is important as well as being careful what you are actually rewarding.

I personally would do exercises like the tellington touch and when he shows quiet calm relaxed behaviour and happily allows the touch or whatever you are doing at the time click and treat that. You dont want to reward submissive unsure behaviours and likewise you dont want to reward any threatening ploys to make you back off. Just for calm relaxed happy behaviour and pleasureable experinces from being touched.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Got his harness on without being grabbed  i put it on him loosely and kept treating him for staying, then he walked off with it hanging off, took time but got it on, then he didn't come to me for the lead, i eventually approached him and kept treating whilst i put it on, if he's scared of the lead i do wonder f it's the walk he's wary of, either he doesn't enjoy it, or his leg.

He normally protests a little with putting the house line on but not as much (he doesn't hide from it, he just grabs my arm if i take along time putting it on him) 

will try putting the harness on him later without the walk and see what happens


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This may help Sarah Fisher Tellington touch demo, might explain a few things and give you some ideas and explains things better then just text. You will also be able to see on there, the difference in how the dog likes certain touches in some areas and responds and how in others he is not comfortable and what he is telling you then and how she then goes back to the other areas he is comfortable with and how he then settles again and relaxes. Its all about building a bond and trust and getting the dog used to being touched so that it is a pleasureable experience.
> 
> Sarah Fisher from TTouch UK introduces TTouch - YouTube
> 
> ...


Good video, in the vid where the dog moves its face towards her after putting his paw on her, thats what cooper does, but with his big horrific gob wide open :scared: I like the harness in the video, although don't think pink would suit him, i don't think he likes his head being put through hs harness (doesn't help his got a big lunk head so you cant just throw the harness over his head, i don't think he finds having his legs pushed through comfortable either (it feels a bit awkward doing it)


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Good video, in the vid where the dog moves its face towards her after putting his paw on her, thats what cooper does, but with his big horrific gob wide open :scared: I like the harness in the video, although don't think pink would suit him, i don't think he likes his head being put through hs harness (doesn't help his got a big lunk head so you cant just throw the harness over his head, i don't think he finds having his legs pushed through comfortable either (it feels a bit awkward doing it)


The second harness on there the tellington touch one is the one I told you about previously in the other post, that one you dont have to put heads through or lift legs to put it on.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The second harness on there the tellington touch one is the one I told you about previously in the other post, that one you dont have to put heads through or lift legs to put it on.


Mekuti harnesses can be purchased with a neck clip to avoid having to pass it over the head too and you don't have to put legs through anything either as they have two side clips: The Mekuti Balance Dog Harness: stop your dog pulling on the lead.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The second harness on there the tellington touch one is the one I told you about previously in the other post, that one you dont have to put heads through or lift legs to put it on.


Like the look of it, will add one or similar to the list. Want to keep using a harness, although i said the one we had doesn't stop him pulling, think i was expecting too much, i walked him without the other day and he pulled alot harder, feel more in control.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Mekuti harnesses can be purchased with a neck clip to avoid having to pass it over the head too and you don't have to put legs through anything either as they have two side clips: The Mekuti Balance Dog Harness: stop your dog pulling on the lead.


These look good too! decisions  I was alarmed to see these on that site :scared: i may need these if things dont go to plan  Mekuti Fake Hands are a practical, safe and useful tool for assessing rescue or touch sensitive animals


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Just brushed Cooper, he's been malting alot lately, we thought he had a skin condition at 1st as it was in clumps, but it's even now and leaving no bold patches (his coat was quite ginger, it's got more light flicks in it now) 

Anyway last time we brushed him it was a case of gritting teeth and brushing whilst being chewed and kicked. Tonight gave my gf the clicker and fed a constant stream of biscuits clicking him for being calm and gave him a good brush and wasn't bitten once :thumbup:

To clear something up, the video earlier posted about dressing a wound, it appears she was clicking and treating the calming signals, the dog licked his lips she clicked, when he made eye contact she clicked, when he kept eye contact she would proceed further. Is this correct? is it right to click the calming signals ? am i missing something??


----------



## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Its great to hear progress in at least one area :thumbup:

Not sure about when to click sorry.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

mixed weekend with coop, the gf and kids are away for the weekend so its been me and coop 

Are fence has been in bits for months snd decided to sort it this weekend which meant coop had to be leashed in the garden. And there has been the heat!!! and it hits him hard. We went for a walk yesterday and i let him have a dip in the brook, We were down a steep bank, a couple with a gsd came and watched us and we were talking, coop was fine and then he spotted the gsd at the top and just flew out the brook and went 100mph at him, luckily the leash went tight and he couldnt get to him, felt bad the gsd was cowering and really didnt seem to be giving any agressive signals, then coop jumped back in the brook again  perhaps the heat and the high position the gsd was in made him ratty ???

Today drove him for a quick walk around the lake as hes been feeling the heat, our normal spot was busy so went to a stream, some kids stood at the top asking questions about him, they came down to play whatever were doing but came close so i headed away, as i turned to climb the bank a kid ran upto him as i turned coop ducked his approaching hand ears back and scuttled after me, im really going to start being sterner.

We then passed a couple with an old waggy tail lab, i let coop walk by him and moved him on , no growling. He then wanted to approach the people so i let him, the man quite quickly reached for him and he "ducked" it again. I explained he was nervy and they were nice about it, still worrying.

Ive contacted the behaviorist who has been helpful, she said to walk him however i can for now, also to minimse steeling ops and if the item isnt important leave it, we need to minimise the behavior.
On a plus the "hides" are going well, he co operates at sn earlier stage of walk now, ive been slowly increasing the time he has to hang around behind me with my fist holding the treat rather than waving it in front of him. 

He had a paddle in the kids pool today (shush!!) and is now flat out


----------



## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Glad the behaviourist agrees with ignoring unimportant stuff and reducing the opportunities.
Sounds like there is improvement too with the hides and wanting to aproach on occasion.

Have you thought of writing a diary ( this thread could be it). Reading back through it every so often and highlighting in your mind the improvement you can see can be realy motivational.

Keep up the good work, you have put in a lot of effort to not suceed


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I said to her i stopped the diary as EVERYTHING he stole needed high value treats to distract but im going to continue using one. I will give it a few weeks and book another visit from her, so she can see whats improving and what isnt.


----------



## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

just take it a day at a time. this hot weather doesn't do any of our dogs any favours. hopefully in a few weeks you'll notice some difference even if it's only a small one


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> I said to her i stopped the diary as EVERYTHING he stole needed high value treats to distract but im going to continue using one. I will give it a few weeks and book another visit from her, so she can see whats improving and what isnt.


Probably the best way, when I consulted one for Kobi, it was a series of three 1 to 1s about two weeks apart, each time she assessed him, and we had home work to do for the next one, so she could monitor his progress.

oes sound he is unsure in certain situations and with certain people. Wondering if some are too head on, and invade his space too quick before he has a time to weigh them up and become confortable and decide they are OK.
Do they step into his space and go to stroke him on the head face on? Im wondering if all the head collar nonsense has made him a bit head shy.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Probably the best way, when I consulted one for Kobi, it was a series of three 1 to 1s about two weeks apart, each time she assessed him, and we had home work to do for the next one, so she could monitor his progress.
> 
> oes sound he is unsure in certain situations and with certain people. Wondering if some are too head on, and invade his space too quick before he has a time to weigh them up and become confortable and decide they are OK.
> Do they step into his space and go to stroke him on the head face on? Im wondering if all the head collar nonsense has made him a bit head shy.


think youre right, a neighbour always puts his fist out and lets coop sniff, hes fine, the incident today surprised me he seemed keen to meet the man (have to keep lead tight or he will jump up and possibly mouth) but he went to stroke his head. same as the boy. He looked like a dog thats had a good whack of someone which confuses me, poss the head collar business has done it ??. Hes fine with my hands coming at him when hes in a stable mood, and he has absolutely no problems with touch targets with me, he instantly touches my hand for treats. Ive tried to work to the rule if he wants to meet somebody even dogs i give him the benefit of the doubt, if hes nervy i let him lag and encourage him to pass in space. Ive started crossing the road if dogs are incoming, prefer to work with him in space.


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Another thing been keeping him using the harness, i dont corner him, i sit with it and treats and let him put his head through with treats, then treat once its on. he still scuttles off when its on and doesnt seem to want to walk, once out he seems ok. Def getting vet check incase hes in pain, but maybe hes fearful of walks ?? suppose have to see what the vet says and take from there.


----------



## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Little steps, I think you're doing fine


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Another thing been keeping him using the harness, i dont corner him, i sit with it and treats and let him put his head through with treats, then treat once its on. he still scuttles off when its on and doesnt seem to want to walk, once out he seems ok. Def getting vet check incase hes in pain, but maybe hes fearful of walks ?? suppose have to see what the vet says and take from there.


I dont think its so much walks more of some of the things he encounters on walks and is not sure of.


----------



## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Keep posting. 

Sounds like you're both doing well. It's a work in progress but there's definitely progress. You sound much happier.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

redginald said:


> Another thing been keeping him using the harness, i dont corner him, i sit with it and treats and let him put his head through with treats, then treat once its on. he still scuttles off when its on and doesnt seem to want to walk, once out he seems ok. Def getting vet check incase hes in pain, but maybe hes fearful of walks ?? suppose have to see what the vet says and take from there.


This is similar to Roxy. It doesn't matter whether it's a side fitting harness, one that slips over her head or even just her lead, she always seems to shirk away from it as if she is reluctant to go out. It's odd as she loves her walks when out, isn't nervous(mostly) but she doesn;t like change to her walks so maybe this is a worry for her .... who knows! I have always done similar things with the treats & she has improved but does still not get excited like Toby does.

I don't let anyone approach Roxy now. I don't think this helped her at all & she also appeared fine at times then suddenly would snap. I decided that I couldn't risk this so always tell people not to come over, rightly or wrongly. Whilst at training yesterday a man walked passed us with an umbrella (under his arm so not even open) & instantly I knew she wouldn't like this so I moved away.

I think that as I have watched her so closely (as her body language changes so quickly) that I have (hopefully) begun to understand her alot kmore, notice the subtle changes & anticipate things that may be a worry to her.

As everyone has has said I don't think the weather has helped - Roxy was a sh*t yesterday & seemed to think every thing was hers. All poor Toby wanted to do was stand in the paddling pool but Roxy was on guard duty & thought it was her job to make sure no one went near it


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sounds similar to Coop. Yesterday took him to the woods, we were in the entrance path which is tight, a couple approached with an offlead Golden retriever, coop lagged behind and "stalked" like a lion, they put their dog on a lead and i kept coop to my side, their dog growled/barked and that was it, he was on his back legs, i had to keep kneeing him to keep him away as we passed.

Straight after a bloke caught up with an offlead staff, coop didn't seem bothered at all, the staff was polite and hung around but didn't get too close, coop approached the man and he put his hand out, coop went to him for fussing, he was really good,

Tonight he wouldn't accept the harness, loads of airsnaps he just wasn't having it, he does seem to snap at the harness and not me in particular, can put my hand by him when he is like this with no reaction, i walked him without the harness tonight as it got to a point where i would have to force it and didn't want to


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Well pay day has come  so have set our insurance excess to one side and will get coop down the vet.

Today we went to the pet shop and bought some bones for coop, the shop had just taken stock of stag bars and were pricing them up, £12 for a large one :scared: I said i'll try him on the bones, if he still prefers the tv remote i'll be back.

the good news is, he loves the bones, the bad news is he likes them too much.
He took it out in the garden to chew so i left him at it, it started to rain so i opened the door and told him to come in, he was stood on the patio i was a couple of metres away, his lips curled he snarled, i just stood and said "come", no reaction, i reached to take the line to which he started barking and growling at me, have no doubt if i had pushed it i would have been floored by him, as you already well know, am no dog body language expert, but today i didn't have to be, he was clearly telling me to P**S off or i'll get it. I walked to the kitchen and he came to see what i was doing, i shut the gate and went out and bought his bone in for him and gave it to him. This is a dog that last night chose to sit on my lap for the eve.

Tonight he got on the back of the sofa, my daughter was half the room away and was calling him, he growled then, we told her to stop what she was doing and leave him.

The behavior today was frightening, iv'e only seen him that aggressive with other dogs.

I follow alot of DDB people and rescues etc on fb, i often see people posting about their dog growling at them around food etc, and i also see alot of replies of people saying stay away from their food then, their dogue won't let them near them when feeding. Somebody from a rescue who is involved in rescue and rehab also has pics of bites they have recieved for some reason, they have pics of their shoulder that had the flesh ripped from it, by a dogue that spent the previous 6 months sleeping in his bed with him. 

Iv'e been working daily with him, fetch isn't going to plan, he fetches but drops instantly for a treat, i know that i should now click him when he holds it for longer but he simply won't do it, if he picks it up and i don't click he drops it, he will then start jumping up at me rather than work with the fetch toy.

The hides are going well, he will start listening almost straight after leaving the house now, and we spend alot of the walk with him walking at 5 o clock to me workng for a treat, i think this helps, as it gives him something to concentrate on whilst walking.

The touch targets etc he does readily, unfortunately im still seeing alot of worrying behavior from him. (iv'e given the harness a rest for a bit because it just creates conflict every time he puts it on) It may sound horrible but i'm kind of hoping the vet may find something treatable with him, in the hope an underlying health issue is feeding these behavior issues. ( sorry to say it but i would rather have a dog with bad hips that can be helped with medication etc, rather than a dog that becomes so agressive it has to be pts)


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I totally understand where you are coming from with the vet and a diagnosis thing. If Coops has bad hips he will most likely have pain and none of us bear pain readily so dogs are no different. If it were HD and he is insured (sorry can't remember if you managed to get insurance or not) he can have a certain amount of hydrotherapy sessions, all of his medication and even a replacements like my Flynn, depending on your level of cover of course. I hope the vet finds something curable too so good luck with that. 

What kind of bones do you get from the pet shop? I hope not those awful 'post man's leg' things that are cooked and dangerous. I never give the Mals any of those type things, not even the white hollow ones which I sometimes let the little dogs have because they can't actually eat them, they just chew on them without splintering bits off - not a fan though. I think with Coops if you give him a bone it should be something like a pork knuckle bone from the butcher, that way it will not last him as long as a large bone and you won't need to take it off of him. It's something I have done with all the dogs as soon as we got them, take food and bones away from them and praise. With Flynn it was even easier as being born here I started this practice from three weeks old and the others eight. I rarely take bones off of them as it's their food and not fair to play around with them but if I need to I say drop and leave before taking it, I never just reach out and take even though I know they are okay because if they are having an off day - ouch! A bone is a very precious thing so perhaps it's best not to give them to Coops or like I said get smaller raw ones off the butcher so as he can eat them without you needing to stop him half way through. Remember though that all cooked bones can be dangerous due to splintering and perforation of internal organs, intestines etc. give raw bones from the butcher instead. 

It's a shame that you are scared of Coops because he probably knows it too and will take advantage of it. I can understand that he looks scary curling his lip and for that reason I wouldn't give him anything to guard and that includes toys. I don't have any toys lying around purely because I can't as the Mals may get protective with them towards each other and there have been fights in the past. I never have anything food-ish lying around for that same reason and little dog toys have been eaten so none of those either. If he guards don't give him the opportunity to do so and make the bones something he can eat without him worrying you are going to take them off him. If you need to take anything try a swap instead, making sure it's something really worth giving up his bone for.

Good that some area's of training are working out and it's always one step forward and two steps back to start with, goodness I know that as I'm still there with Flynn but with patience and consistency it'll pay off I'm sure.

Other's may disagree but I wouldn't let Coops sit or lie across my lap and would definitely keep him off of the furniture, my trainer said that is a kind of guarding of a human thing, a bit like with a bone and also a privilege he hasn't yet earned because he still has a way to go with his behaviour. TBH I don't let any of the Mals do this, never have except Flynn after his recoveries - far too big and the floor or their beds are more than enough for them. Hair everywhere else so not on the sofa too - not even my beloved Flynn is allowed any more. 
l


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I totally understand where you are coming from with the vet and a diagnosis thing. If Coops has bad hips he will most likely have pain and none of us bear pain readily so dogs are no different. If it were HD and he is insured (sorry can't remember if you managed to get insurance or not) he can have a certain amount of hydrotherapy sessions, all of his medication and even a replacements like my Flynn, depending on your level of cover of course. I hope the vet finds something curable too so good luck with that.
> 
> What kind of bones do you get from the pet shop? I hope not those awful 'post man's leg' things that are cooked and dangerous. I never give the Mals any of those type things, not even the white hollow ones which I sometimes let the little dogs have because they can't actually eat them, they just chew on them without splintering bits off - not a fan though. I think with Coops if you give him a bone it should be something like a pork knuckle bone from the butcher, that way it will not last him as long as a large bone and you won't need to take it off of him. It's something I have done with all the dogs as soon as we got them, take food and bones away from them and praise. With Flynn it was even easier as being born here I started this practice from three weeks old and the others eight. I rarely take bones off of them as it's their food and not fair to play around with them but if I need to I say drop and leave before taking it, I never just reach out and take even though I know they are okay because if they are having an off day - ouch! A bone is a very precious thing so perhaps it's best not to give them to Coops or like I said get smaller raw ones off the butcher so as he can eat them without you needing to stop him half way through. Remember though that all cooked bones can be dangerous due to splintering and perforation of internal organs, intestines etc. give raw bones from the butcher instead.
> 
> ...


We give him the bones to occupy him and try to prevent him chewing stuff we have to retrieve from him. I don't ever take his bones from him, i don't need to, theyre his!!

Hopefully we will get there, like the behaviorist said, it will take time!


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

redginald said:


> We give him the bones to occupy him and try to prevent him chewing stuff we have to retrieve from him. I don't ever take his bones from him, i don't need to, theyre his!!
> 
> Hopefully we will get there, like the behaviorist said, it will take time!


Oh I thought the lip curling was because you needed to get him in and he had a bone so got a bit iffy about it. Perhaps we both thought you were going to take it off of him! 

As the saying goes 'Everything worth having is worth waiting for' same goes with training eh?


----------



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Oh I thought the lip curling was because you needed to get him in and he had a bone so got a bit iffy about it. Perhaps we both thought you were going to take it off of him!
> 
> As the saying goes 'Everything worth having is worth waiting for' same goes with training eh?


Had to get him in, he could have taken the one with him, but you're right he must have thought i wanted the bone !


----------

