# Beagle vs Deer



## hollie.hocks (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi,

I'm really hoping & praying that someone can help, my 1 year old Beagle, Alfie has just discoverd deer! On Friday my partner walked him and there was a young deer in the woods, apparently it took about fifteen minutes but thankfully as the deer stayed put my partner finally managed to grab him and put him on his lead. His recall is generally quite good unless there is a distraction but not usually that bad.

Anyway, I walked him yesterday with my parents and their dog, we were on the way back from the walk when all of the sudden he was gone! He had been being really good, staying close etc, when he just started tracking, barking and then ran off. We didn't find him again until nearly 4 hours later, it was absolutely terrifying, there were a few occassions when we managed to find him but just couldn't get close. He had his nose to the ground and was just running along barking to himself, it was like we were invincible. Most of the time we could hear him in the distance barking, he went for miles, eventually we lost my mum (the only one who didn't have a phone) she came across him in the woods, he was apparently just stood watching her, anyway she grabbed him and raised the alarm at a local garden centre. 

I have no idea how to prevent this in the future other than never letting him off again which we absolutely do not want to do. We've done 18 weeks of training previously plus 1-2-1 training at home with a behavioural expert. We knew as he's a beagle recall would always be a struggle but there is no way I can go through that again, I was so distraught by the time we finally got home. I went through barbed wire, brambles, frozen ice everything and spent the day crying and shaking, whereas he slept all day and apart from a few scratches is absolutely fine.

We are already booked on a 4 week recall course that starts on Saturday but I'm just not convinced it will help. He becomes completely fixated and I really fear nothing and no-one will be able to help.

I just can't believe how lucky we were to find him and that he has not been hurt or taken. I feel so bad, I couldn't go near him for hours, he's cuddled up to me now, he means everything to me and I can't lose him.

Does anyone have any ideas/ advice, anything would be really appreciated. I know it sounds silly but are deer always around or are there certain times of the year when they're out and about more? 

Sorry for the rant and that its so long!

Hollie & alf x


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

So sorry to hear your problems, most of my dogs have gone through a spell of chasing deer, in your case I think you are going to need professional advice.
Maybe see if there is a beagle pack near to you and try and get some advice from them. Beagles have such strong hunting instincts and you will probably need a specialist trainer


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

It's great you've booked in for recall lessons.
I would keep him on a long line until he is fully trained.
I don't know much about deer, but I see them pretty much all year round.


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

Good for you for signing up to the recall class, I wish my brother had done that with his beagle (who I'm currently looking after and unable to let off lead) 

Beagles are pack animals, do you have a mate with a reliable dog that you could allow to trot around with your dog? See if this focuses his attention away from sniffing for a minute or two? 

In the meantime I would go back to the behaviourist you consulted originally and ask for follow up. 

BTW Alfie is gorgeous!!


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry to say this but I fear this is a problem you mayl never cure, once beagles get the scent - thats it they can go for miles, maybe you should use a tracking lead to give your dog some degree of freedom without fear of losing him


when booking the course did you tell them that your dog was a beagle?
regards
DT


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## hollie.hocks (Sep 30, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the comments, so far.

Yes the course we were booked on for Saturday is with the behavioural expert who did the 1-2-1 with him and the previous training.

I spoke to her today and she suggested we cancel Saturday as it would involve letting him off in the woods and there's too high a risk with the deer around at present. We will hopefully arrange another 1-2-1 instead, she hopes to de-sensitise him to the deer, although I have no idea how!

With regard to him being in a pack, we were with another dog which he is walked with regularly when he ran off. My dog walker who also owns a Beagle thinks that there is not much we can do and once they get a scent, they will only stop when they have had enough. The trainer seemed to think we should ensure he is starving and go back to basics with practising recall but the risk is so high. 

It's awful not being able to let him off to play with his friends.

I did search for more info on this on-line but there were the most awful comments on what people do to their beagles to stop them hunting deer, nothing that I would ever consider


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## Ducky (Nov 23, 2008)

i sadly cant yet trust my beagle off lead and dont know if i ever really will. he is extremely smell orientated. his nose is on the ground for 95% of the time on walks. the only time he is let off is when he is at a specific park and there are lots of other dogs and owners there, there are usually at least 2 other beagles there too. he chases the other dogs around and doesnt stray too much. but when im out with him on my own, it doesnt matter what tasty treats or toys i have to offer, his deaf ears are on. its a shame, i'd absolutely love to be able to let him run around freely, but for now the tracking lead is staying on!!


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi I would say he has just woken up and realised what he was meant for!!! Although deer are the wrong thing lol. I dont think it will be impossible to train him to be of lead again it just may take a bit of time and patience. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Good luck


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## Chance (Jul 8, 2008)

_ she hopes to de-sensitise him to the deer, although I have no idea how!_

Perhaps try getting your own deer and keeping it in your garden. When the Beagle realises how boring the deer is he won't show any future interest and hopefully your problem will be gone.

*I'll get my coat*


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

Hi Hollie,

We have two beagles - one 18 months old the other 8 months. They're still too young for me to be able to say "We've solved the problem" or "we've failed to solve the problem", so I'll simply tell you what we've done and where we are now.

I'd be very interested to hear updates from you too! Beagles are the best dogs in the world, but they can be a handful!

We let ours off lead every day on one of two places:

1. A local park that has a huge meadow, surrounded by trees, then surrounded by a golf course on one side and the rest of the park on the other. From our central position the dogs would need to go a very long way before they got to roads.

2. A beach, 3 miles long and half a mile wide with half a mile or so of open country beside it - again, a long way to go before getting to roads.

We wouldn't risk letting them off in open country - too many smells.

We've had 'difficult' times, but now I'd say 99.9% of the time they stay close. They will occasionally run off out of sight, but always come running back with big happy faces within 2 minutes. The worst that's ever happened is a 10 minute wait but that was quite some time ago. Having said this, a friend's beagle disappeared in our park for a whole night. They could hear him (chasing foxes) but couldn't catch him. That was completely out of character and happened out of the blue when he was about 18 months old. He hasn't done it again since. They think the key was to avoid late afternoon walks - the scents seem stronger then. Is there a particular time of day when yours is more likely to go after deer?

Like you, we've always worked hard on recall. And like you, we've found it all goes out the window when the dog picks up a scent. They've been selectively bred to single mindedly follow a scent - you can't easily train that out.

Two 'tools' that we find particularly useful:

1. A 'Really Reliable Recall' DVD. A google search will find it for you - but really you don't even need it as the method is described very well here. I HIGHLY recommend this and it only takes moments to do each day:

http://www.dogagilitypreschool.biz/Handouts/DAPS Reliable Recall.pdf
http://www.dogagilitypreschool.biz/Handouts/DAPS Reliable Recall Part II.pdf

The claim is that by following this simple daily training you'll have an emergency recall that will cut through your dog's natural instincts. He'll stop in his tracks and run to you. It was devised by a lady with Afghan hounds (worse than beagles for recall!) and she says it works reliably with all of her dogs. We haven't had an emergency yet so can't tell you whether it works for ours - but the impression I get is that it might...and it's getting stronger every day that we practice it. Using these methods our normal recall is definitely much improved and our dogs are more inclined to want to stay close to us.

2. A GPS tracking collar. This is a recent (and expensive) purchase but one that I wouldn't be without. We chose the Retreiva collar. If our dogs did wander off (and we work hard to make sure they never will) we can track them using mapping software on our mobiles.

3. We've got together with other beagle owning friends and are currently looking for a piece of land to buy. Our plan is to fence it in securely and have a safe place for our dogs to play. Early days with this - no idea what it might cost, but with bank interest rates so low and a recession.....

I hope you get the problem sorted. But I'm confident that even if your Beagle proves to be particularly keen on hunting you'll find a way to let him have fun and freedom with a bit of creative thinking!


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

There are definitely things you can do, I am doing a drive training program at the moment - but it takes time and very few trainers will be able to help you effectively. I know people who have also trained it with low stim e-collars, which don't bother me as the low stim training is not painful, but because I am also training for obedience I want to work with the drive. 

Without wanting to be harsh, the fact is that you have a beagle, a high drive scent hound, the instinct to follow their nose has been built into them for centuries. I would NEVER let my beagle off leash unless in a secure area, or an area we have proofed for in training for the very reason you experienced.

I know of beagles who have followed their noses across the road and been hit by cars, it is not something that you risk with a scent hound irregardless of how much they enjoy being off leash.

If my beagle gets on a scent she literally cannot hear me calling her, because she is in something called 'drive peak' where her brain is working from the lower cortext, the medulla, which is why they are so unresponsive to commands - they are 110% completely focused on the scent which is what they have been bred to do. My beagle actually gets surprised when she realises I am standing near her - when she knows I am there she has excellent recall. But if she is on a scent there is nothing I can do to disrupt her when she is in drive peak. This is why I am doing drive based training so that we are putting the control back in during those situations.

I would never try to train OUT instinct. Why even bother having a beagle if that is your goal? And IMO it is impossible to train out an instinct that has been selectively bred into a dog for centuries. I wouldn't risk it as for me, it doesn't offer enough relability as using the drive to my advantage, the instinct will always be there no matter how much you try to over power it.


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## trailhoundwelfare (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi
The scent of deer is particularly alluring to hounds/dogs to the point that packs of hounds trained to hunt other animals will sometimes 'riot' after deer.

I am involved with homing retired trailhounds and my advice to new owners would be to train recall in open spaces rather than in woodland. Woods have lots more interesting smells and a dog can go out of sight and earshot very quickly.

A friend is involved in beagle rescue and comparing her beagle experience with my trailhound experience, I think beagles seem more likely to have poor recall (sorry!). Most hounds that we home can be trained to good recall given time. My friend has had some beagles for years that can not be trusted offlead.

My only advice would be to start recall training afresh, first on a short lead then on a longer line. Below is a copy of our training leaflet if it helps at all.
Cant promise it will work, the main problem may be that now he has experienced that lovely sense of freedom, it may take a long time to train it out of him.
Good lick!

Training Recall 

Main points at a glance:

Start training in the house by calling your hound from another room at mealtimes.

All initial outdoor training should be on a lead or training line  do not let your hound be the one deciding when they will return.

Always use their name to get their attention followed by the recall command.

Always be consistent by using a key recall word, said in a clear, firm voice.

Begin to allow your hound off lead in a secure area, only after they have shown that they are responding well to the recall word whilst still on a lead.

Always give lots of praise and a tasty treat to positively train your hound.

Once trained, if they start to ignore you, go back a stage, and pop a training line back on them.

Be prepared to always have treats with you to positively reinforce good behaviour.

Training recall is one of the first things you will want to do with your new hound. Some hounds are very good right from the start but it still pays to teach them properly. 

You must train your hound to recall before letting them go off lead. Leaving it up to them to decide when they are going to return is not a good idea and bad habits quickly set in.

Once trained, you can enjoy walks knowing that your hound will come back promptly when called. 

Remember that in their racing life, trailhounds are lined up on a fellside with other hounds and released to run up to 10 miles over the fells on their own! Apart from people positioned at crossing points on roads, they race completely unaided. This requires a huge degree of independence on the part of a hound. 

For training you will need:

Treats - a hip bag is useful to keep them in. Training treats should be extra tasty, such as small pieces of sausage or cheese. 

A normal lead to start with, then progress to a longer training line. If your hound is boisterous and liable to run to the end of the line and jolt its neck, attach it to a harness instead of a collar. 

A recall word. One word that hounds are called in to at the end of a race is HERE, so you may want to use that. Some hounds are called in to a whistle so you may decide to train with one. 

Calling their name will get their attention initially but the recall word or whistle is what you are teaching them to return to so always use it, as consistency is very important. Use a firm and clear tone of voice.

First lesson

To initially teach the command word, place your hound on a lead in front of you. With a small treat in your hand, entice your hound towards you as you run backwards using their name followed by your chosen recall word. When they reach you, put your hand on their collar as you give them the treat and lots of praise. This ensures that they do not grab the treat and then try to run off.

This level is very easy and you can constantly reinforce this whilst on a walk.

Progressing to the next level

When you feel your hound understands what you are asking and is responding well, progress to a longer training line. You will still be in control but your hound will begin to get a greater sense of freedom on a longer line.

At this stage, you are instilling in them the habit of automatically returning first time so make it easier by calling them when they are least distracted by other things. 
If they come straight back when called, give them lots of praise and a treat. 

If they do not respond, gently tug and, if necessary, reel them in with the training line whilst using your recall command (still in the same tone of voice) and again lots of praise and a treat. 

Begin to call them when they are distracted by other things. Make sure they get lots of praise and a treat so they can see it was worth their while coming back!

Do this again and again over a period of weeks and see how well they are responding before considering the next stage.

They have to understand that every single time you call them they will come back, whether by their choice or by you reeling them in. They will also learn that returning earns them a treat.

The next step

When they are responding well every time, find a safe area to let them go and progress from there.

If they regress, put the lead back on again and continue training as before. Even if this takes weeks, do persevere as it will pay off in the long run. 

Never punish or tell off your hound for not returning. Coming back must always be a good experience for them.

Gradually, you will only give the treat when they come straight back  you would always give lots of praise but treats only after first call. Eventually, you may progress to only occasionally giving treats but you should always be prepared to have pockets full of crumbs and dried up bits of sausage  but that is a small price to pay for having a well behaved hound!

A few extra things to consider:

Enlist the help of someone with a dog with good recall as your hound will enjoy racing back alongside another dog.

If you feed lots of treats on a walk, scale down the morning/evening meal accordingly as you do not want your hound to become obese.

When your hound is allowed off lead, if they come back to you uncalled, always give them a treat and praise as it means they are checking in with you and it should be encouraged.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. As you have read you have picked a challenging breed. They were bred for tracking purposes and, in my opinion, it is very difficult to "train" them out of it.

My recommendation is to try a spray collar. I use them on a couple of my dogs for various reasons. They are not harmful, but are also not cheap. There has been a thread on here quite recently about them. Find the thread and you can see what people have said.

Best of luck 
Vicky


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Anyone tried Petsafe Remote Spray Trainer? ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

Many beagle owners will not let them off their leads because of recall problems - they can cover vast distances when they pick up the scent! They can go for 30 miles!!! NOT experienced with beagles but something to be aware. Maybe it would be worth using a tracking lead to give some freedom with the knwledge that you always have a hold on him. That said good luck with the trainer. But he is only doing what is natural for him to do
DT


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Just to add to my previous post - I didn't find teaching the recall command difficult with my hound at all, she picked it up very quickly. It was getting the recall reliable, and working out how to disrupt her when she was on a scent so she was actually aware that I was calling her.

When she is aware I am calling her she has a great, very speedy recall, excellent focus etc - but if she has her nose to the ground on a serious scent then the instinct has taken over and she's not even aware that I am near her, or calling her, all her brain is able to focus on is following the scent.

I agree with DT's suggestion of putting the dog on a tracking lead, it is by far the safer option for now.


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## scarter (Apr 26, 2009)

That's my experience too - Beagles are VERY easy to teach recall....or anything else for that matter. It's just getting it reliable that's hard. Neither of mine have ever gone after anything alive. We avoid letting them off-lead in open countryside and we avoid times of day when foxes are active in the park. We've therefore never had to contend with a dog hot on a trail. But we do have major problems 'cutting through' when they go into a 'sniffy' mode - or even chase mode (i.e wanting to chase another fast dog). I'm quite certain we've only ever experienced half-hearted sniffing - that's bad enough!

Having said that, I'm not sure getting the dog on a tracking lead is the best way to go. Certainly better than letting it loose in open country side. But my experience with my two is that they're much better behaved if they get off-lead every day. Miss a day or two and they're a bit hyper when they do get off again. If a dog generally has good recall (and this one sounds like it does when there's no deer in the equation) then my inclination would be to find a safe, enclosed space that's free from deer. 

Another idea that we're having some success with - A beagle that's wanting to chase his buddies or follow a scent won't even notice a lump of freshly cooked chicken held under it's nose. That tells us that the 'chase' or 'following the scent' is a considerably higher reward than the tastiest of food. When teaching recall you want to always offer the highest possible reward. We'll often start out a walk with the dog on a long training lead. We recall the dog and if it comes quickly it gets a tasty treat AND an off-lead run. We've reached the stage with this where our dog can be going absolutely balistic on the end of it's lead. It doesn't hear us calling and it doesn't notice if you stick food under it's nose. However, we use our 'emergency recall' word (described in my earlier post) and the dog instantly turns and runs to us. It then gets a treat AND gets to go after whatever it was going crazy about. So in the dogs mind "Ignore the command and I'm stuck at the end of this lead going nowhere. Obey the command and I get a tasty treat AND I get to do what I want most in all the world". We haven't tried it off-lead yet (I suspect it wouldn't work yet - some part of our dogs brains are aware that when attached to us there is a greater need to listen to us!), but on-lead we are managing to cut through and get the dog to hear us. But obviously the important point here is that we aren't in open country side. We're in a park that's about as safe and enclosed as you can get and has limited scents to follow.

Beaches (despite being quite smelly to us) are pretty uninteresting to Beagles from a tracking point of view. They run and chase, but don't follow scents....except perhaps the occasional set of hoof prints down the beach.


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## trailhoundwelfare (Apr 24, 2009)

Scarter - just looked at your website and the pics of beagle racing look fantastic.
That reminded me of a group that get together and take their beagles drag hunting on aniseed trails. They are pet beagles that just meet up throughout the winter for a day in the countryside. Last winter I went along with my trailhound. She was invited to join in (as she took part in hound trailing races before I adopted her) and it was so funny as she outran the beagles easily and on one run, she took them round the course twice!

Maybe hollyhocks should think about finding something similar for Alfie to channel his hunting instinct?
The beagle group I followed are here...
http://www.thebeagleclub.org/working%20section.htm
and here is a report on Lotty's day outy with them!
http://www.thebeagleclub.org/micheldean_301108.htm


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## hollie.hocks (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi everyone,

Thanks everyone for the recent comments, sorry I should have posted something before now but life with a Beagle always seems to hectic!

We went to the Hound Day at Crufts and were lucky enough to speak to a lot of experienced Beagle owners and we very quickly came to the conclusion that as you've all suggested, letting Alf off the lead everywhere and anywhere is really a no go. Instead, we are now very selective about when he actually goes off the lead, and it's usually only when he's with other dogs who are reliable to return that we risk it!

We are very lucky that we have an enclosed dog field within out local country park, Alf's recall when there are no scents around is brilliant, so we are very lucky in that respect. He's very loyal to us and never strays too far, apart from obviously when a deer is around. Since his last adventure, we've had no more disappearing acts so def an improvement!

Anyway, the best thing about Crufts was finding out about the Beagle Club, and yes, as one user suggested, we took Alfie drag hunting! It was absolutely fantastic and he loved every minute of it! The season runs Sept - March so unfortunately we only got to take him to the last one of the season and now have to wait until Sept to go again. It was great to meet so many other Beagles and so many great owners who gave us a lot of advice.

You can see him if you look under album 10, Blewbury, photos 28 and 56 show him in all his glory!

MAGIX | Beagle Drag Meets

I've added some more recent photos of Alf to his album, I love my beautiful boy so much!

H x


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## trailhoundwelfare (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi 
That is brilliant! Glad you have found solutions to manage Alfie's independent streak while still allowing him to 'follow his nose'.


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