# Hunny B Breeding Programme



## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I am going to breed Hunny B, Poodle Cross Golden Retriever next year so keep everything crossed for me.
I am going to get her hip scored at the end of October,lets hope the results come back good.
The vet says this costs about £160 is that about right ?
Also where do i get her eyes checked as the vets dont do this.
I live in Hampshire but i can travel a little way.
Do any of you know the price of the eye tests too ?
I am hoping to breed her with a Apricot Standard Poodle thats also been health tested,still looking for one.
Hunny B has five generations of pedigree either side and i will do all the health checks.
I did ask about elbows at the vets,and she said thats not so important.
Don't worry i will not be selling them at Designer prices.
Also i have homes for a few of them already.


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

Oooh good luck, can't wait to see what Hunny Bs babies will look like, she is such a stunning dog.


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## basi (Nov 9, 2007)

Here is a list of eye examiners http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/CHS_Eye_Scheme_List_of_Panellists.pdf

ETA the cost is £42 for 1st dog


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

personally although its not a required test for either breed i would get the elbows scored - better safe than sorry.... Just my thoughts, and they are reccomended tests for both breeds, and reccomended by the doodle association i think?

optigen DNA eye tests i think my bro paid about £60 for his last lot

for the normal eye tests - am not certain


EDIT: standard poodles also require dna testing for von willebrands disease - i would be getting this done too!


Sorry i'm not much more help - i'm not a breeder!


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## poochimama (Apr 24, 2008)

hi hun try this link in hampshire for BVA/kc eyetesting i paid £35 each for mine 
Optivet Referrals

I go to the davis clinic in Beds and all my lot are being optigen tested next month


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thank you everyone its aleays great to get so much good advice.
Thanks all.
I am just learning, so please if you all can give me some more it would be most welcome.

Whats the Doodle Association i have heard of it.
Its not a forum is it ?


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

Health Testing - Welcome to the UK Doodle Club
and

Labradoodle Association of the UK i think this one is a forum lol

It explains about hybrid vigour there too - and that although it sort of applies in F1 generation it wont in subsequent generations.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

If the aim is to breed true to Goldendoodle type and standard, why not use another quality Goldendoodle instead of doing another cross breed mating?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks but i like the first place but not the other.
I have my own doodle forum,and i do believe the UKLA one is for Labradoodles.
Mine are Goldendoodles.
Thanks for you help though.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> If the aim is to breed true to Goldendoodle type and standard, why not use another quality Goldendoodle instead of doing another cross breed mating?


Yes i have thought about this as well.
But was thinking if i can find an Apricot Standard Poodle,the Poodle would give us a better chance of non shedding.
Hunny B does not shed at all.
I know nothing is 100 % either and would never advertise this.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

Health tests!:
Standard Poodle required-eyes tests and hip scoring
Reccomended-seabaceous adenitis testing

Golden Retriever-eyes tests and hip scoring
reccomended-elbow grading

Personally i would get all the above done!


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

Then you'll produce 3/4 poodle x 1/4 golden crosses - not goldendoodles at all. Is that your aim? There are plenty of croos bred poodles out there already. 
What are goldendoodle breeders trying to do? If there isn't an overall body with an aim, then I can't see the point? Just trying to understand .......


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> Then you'll produce 3/4 poodle x 1/4 golden crosses - not goldendoodles at all. Is that your aim? There are plenty of croos bred poodles out there already.
> What are goldendoodle breeders trying to do? If there isn't an overall body with an aim, then I can't see the point? Just trying to understand .......


Maybe you should ask them


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Would the pups not be F1b? Millie is an F1b, she has a Labradoodle mum and a Standard Poodle dad. So with Hunny B being a Goldendoodle and pups dad a Poodle, then the offspring would be F1b Goldendoodles?

Good luck with your research.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Yes they would be F1b's same as your Millie.
Still doing research and will continue until i get it spot on.


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

I am sorry but I am confused 

Maybe I am being thick, but why not just breed poodles, why the cross breeding? I am not trying to start an arguement just would like to know the reason behind the mixture


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Molly's Mum said:


> I am sorry but I am confused
> 
> Maybe I am being think, but why not just breed poodles, why the cross breeding? I am not trying to start an arguement just would like to know the reason behind the mixture


Because i happen to like them.


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Because i happen to like them.


ok then - I was actually interested and wanted to learn more about cross breeding, the genetics and the reasoning behind it but hey sorry I showed an interest.


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## Vikegirl (Aug 6, 2009)

Good luck! How exciting. (A goldendoodle or labradoodle is very high up my shortlist in case we ever decide to get a second dog)


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Molly's Mum said:


> ok then - I was actually interested and wanted to learn more about cross breeding, the genetics and the reasoning behind it but hey sorry I showed an interest.


Sometimes it *is* just as simple as liking them.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Molly's Mum said:


> ok then - I was actually interested and wanted to learn more about cross breeding, the genetics and the reasoning behind it but hey sorry I showed an interest.


Sorry i was not being rude,i do just like them.
I do not know about the genetic side as yet.
I am still learning as i go along.
Hunny B's Mother was an Apricot Standard Poodle,Dad was a Golden Retriever.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

As Hunny B's other "parent" our wish to breed is based on health and temperment. If the health tests (and we intend to have the DNA done as well for numerous other diseases) are clear and we can find the right partner (no decision on this yet) then we will breed.

I think Colsy's reply to Molly's Mum was misunderstood... difficult to say "I don't want to breed poddles because I like retriever poodle crosses" without sounding a little stroppy.. I can assure it wasn't intended that way.

It's difficult to explain why they are a great cross without you actually meeting one. We have a labrador poodle cross as well... fantastci dog but a ball of energy... the golden x cross is more laid back (in our experience) so that's why we want to breed.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## lynn9994 (Jul 29, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Because i happen to like them.


 Good for you like me with my Cockapoos hun


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

The best place if you're in Hampshire for hip scoring is Marilyn who is just north of Southampton. She a radiographer and is very experienced and charges a lot less than vets. The positioning of the dog when the plates are taken is very important as a poor plate can give a poor hip score. I don't want to put her contact details on the www but if you want to pm me I will give you her phone number.

Oh, and she'll do elbow scoring too.

For eye testing you will need to see an opthalmic specialist - normal vets can't do them. Most breed clubs tend to have clinics with a visiting opthalmologist a couple of times a year. The only vet I know that does them individually is Geoff Yellowley (sp) in Woking (Surrey) and again, I can give you his contact details if needed.

Optigen is in the US, so you will need to get your vet to take blood samples and post them to the US. There are 20/20 clinics (which offer a discount) and you may be able to get on one - details on Optigen website.

Oh, and forgot to say Marilyn does them under sedation so no need for a general anesthetic.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Hiya Dundee

A lady i know a breeder uses Marilyn too.
I already have her details thanks anyway 
But can you pm the eye tests person in Woking that would be fab thanks.
I know its going to be ages before we may breed her,but i like to be prepared.
I was a Girl Guide or was that a Scout saying.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Marilyin is very good so don't think you will go wrong going to her.

For the BVA eye tests:

Jeff Yellowley
Rosemount Veterinary Centre
24 Old Woking Rd
West Byfleet
Surrey
KT14 6HP 
01932 341058

I also found this link so you may find someone nearer to you.
Vet Index Online Directory - Ophthalmology Referrals

As they already have pages on the web I don't think it matters putting the details in the post, it was only Marilyn's details as I don't think she has a web presence.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks Dundee thats a great big help to me cheers.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Hiya Dundee
> 
> A lady i know a breeder uses Marilyn too.
> I already have her details thanks anyway
> ...


Well done on doing your research so your prepared,I'm really glad your taking it seriously and it's a refreshing change to see! 
Good luck with choosing a suitable stud for her.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Well done on doing your research so your prepared,I'm really glad your taking it seriously and it's a refreshing change to see!
> Good luck with choosing a suitable stud for her.


Thanks Sallyanne we will not rush into this blind.
I will ask lots of questions i am sure.
It may never happen but it might.
The Stud has to be health tested too, still looking for the right boy.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

_Maybe you should ask them_
I'm new to this site and assumed (obviously wrongly) that you were part of the serious breeding program trying to breed Goldendoodles true to type rather than just someone breeding crossbreeds. Sorry.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> _Maybe you should ask them_
> I'm new to this site and assumed (obviously wrongly) that you were part of the serious breeding program trying to breed Goldendoodles true to type rather than just someone breeding crossbreeds. Sorry.


Well if you are new you really know how to introduce yourself.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Errrrr... true to what type? Goldendoodles are crossbreeds.. we don't try to pretend they're anything else but we also think no less of them for being so and don't consider them to be "just" crossbreeds. They are as important as the "pedigree" dogs we have.

We are serious about breeding correctly and with health as our top priority.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Ooh exiting!
I can't wait to see what Hunny B's puppies will look like! :001_wub:
If my OH wasn't such a pain in the @ss I would tell you to put my name on the waiting list! 

x


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

PoisonGirl said:


> Ooh exiting!
> I can't wait to see what Hunny B's puppies will look like! :001_wub:
> If my OH wasn't such a pain in the @ss I would tell you to put my name on the waiting list!
> 
> x


Oh shame you cannot convince him
Perhaps wine and dine him 
I know how much you like Hunny B.x


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

We're also keen to have the more accurate "PennHIP" done. Does anyone know of somewhere in the UK that does it?

Dog Owner's Guide: PennHip method of diagnosing hip dysplasia


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Oh shame you cannot convince him
> Perhaps wine and dine him
> I know how much you like Hunny B.x


Well I suppose I have some time to get him round to the idea! 
Maybe I could just get one and say ''oh.. it must have fallen into my bag.. I can't take it back it's too far,'' Lol think he will believe me?  hehe

x


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Rough said:


> I'm new to this site and assumed (obviously wrongly) that you were part of the serious breeding program trying to breed Goldendoodles true to type rather than just someone breeding crossbreeds. Sorry.


If the original poster wants to further the 'Goldendoodle' type, or even if she does not, then a cross between F1 and Poodle is perfectly acceptable, as it has been with the Labradoodle both here and in Australia where they were first established.

As long as health tests are done, and the puppies are not sold at extortionate prices, then she is - in my opinion - a great deal more conscientious than many breeders of pedigree dogs out there.

I've been unable to find a code of practice for "Goldendoodle" breeders but this would be a very valuable, standard, acceptable and honest breeding if that were her aim. She may not want to get involved in all that but if the pups are registered and health tested, no reason why they can't go to people who want to*develop the Goldendoodle in the future. What you may see as crossbreeds could be valuable foundation stock, and every new breed had to start along those lines - I wish all of them had been as concerned with health as this!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> We're also keen to have the more accurate "PennHIP" done.


Not sure where you'd get it done in the UK as it's from the US, but I'm not sure why it should be considered more accurate. I can understand that opinion when compared with the OFA test typically used in the US, where gradings are simply given as excellent, good, fair, mildly dysplastic and severely dysplastic. But by comparison, the BVA system is IMO superior. The BVA scoring examines 9 points on each hip (norberg angle, sublaxation, cranial acetabular edge, dorsal acetabular edge, cranial effective acetabular rim, acetabular fossa, caudal acetabular edge, femoral head/neck exostosis and femoral head recontouring) and marks each of those points out of 6 (except the caudal acetabular edge which is marked out of 5) - 0 being perfectly formed. This means that each hip can score up to a maximum of 53, hence allowing for a lot of details to be recorded. Hip are scored out of a total of 106 ie 53 for each hip.

We commonly see hips scores as a single figure (of both hips) - ie 10 , or two figures (each hip) ie 5.5, however, when scored the certificate you receive will give the detail of how each of the 9 points were graded and the score for each point. The BVA scoring method gives a lot more detail than any other form of scoring.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Wow I've never really been sure of what a hip score entails! But now I am off to google all those funny words so I can understand it more! thanks 

x


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

My only issue with BVA is it is still subjective and relies on one good x-ray. PennHIP involves a consistent (by use of a "device" - horrible word I know) positioning of the dog. My worry with BVA is that it relies totally on the dog being in the right position according to whoever is doing it. This can throw several different results (as OFA can) depending on who takes the x-ray and who looks at it. PennHIP takes out the guesswork.

I've heard so many times people in the UK say "well this x-ray showed displasia and this one didn't and this score was 4:6 and this one was 5:5" etc etc


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> My only issue with BVA is it is still subjective and relies on one good x-ray.


I can understand that, and why it is so important to get someone experienced taking the xray. If you use Marilyn you will be in good hands.

TBH, I (and I know many others too) would like to see only experienced vets, perhaps have an approved list of orthopedic vets, xraying hips for scoring. It is the case with eye testing and really should be the case with hip and elbow scoring. A bad plate can give a false result. I think the margin for variation by those who look at it would be minimal as it is a select panel of experts.



> I've heard so many times people in the UK say "well this x-ray showed displasia and this one didn't and this score was 4:6 and this one was 5:5" etc etc


I wouldn't take give too much credit to what people say unless they are specialist orthopedic vets. Even the GP vets are notoriously poor at reading xrays (as far as scoring goes), which is why I don't think they should be taking xrays for scoring.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy I use Ingen for my DNA Tests. They are cheaper than Optigen and they use swabs rather than blood samples. Here is link with tests they do on Goldendoodles Easy DNA Testing for your Pets | PawsitiveID (Exclusively Provided by iNGen)


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

hi colsy
good on you for trying to do it right and doing health checks i have my dogs eyes done through the club but my vet also offered give me details of one so maybe yours would do the same

also are you going keep a puppy for you?

Just thought i would say just had another warning because i dont agree on breeding with no health tests done:cursing: so im going not post for a few days!

good luck


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## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

I bet they will be gorgeous pups!!

Good on you for having all the health tests done. Many people that cross breeds don't seem to have them done.


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## poochimama (Apr 24, 2008)

I agree the vet will will refer you to a good clinic like mine did try the local link i sent you


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Rough said:


> _Maybe you should ask them_
> I'm new to this site and assumed (obviously wrongly) that you were part of the serious breeding program trying to breed Goldendoodles true to type rather than just someone breeding crossbreeds. Sorry.


all pups from these breedings look different!!! they are crossbreeds you numpty true to what type do you mean??? as you cannot guarantee what comes out how can they be true to type!!
I hope all goes well with the tests and you get some beautiful pups


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Sorry i was not being rude,i do just like them.
> I do not know about the genetic side as yet.
> I am still learning as i go along.
> Hunny B's Mother was an Apricot Standard Poodle,Dad was a Golden Retriever.





Elmo the Bear said:


> As Hunny B's other "parent" our wish to breed is based on health and temperment. If the health tests (and we intend to have the DNA done as well for numerous other diseases) are clear and we can find the right partner (no decision on this yet) then we will breed.
> 
> I think Colsy's reply to Molly's Mum was misunderstood... difficult to say "I don't want to breed poddles because I like retriever poodle crosses" without sounding a little stroppy.. I can assure it wasn't intended that way.
> 
> ...


Hey guys, thanks for the info. Like I said I was genuinely interested, not just being negative.

It is so great to hear you are doing the health testing, hats off to you. I look forward to learing more 

Rach x


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Well done you for your care and consideration , I know Hunny B will benefit from the time and effort you are putting into your preparations  And you will have the satisfaction of knowing you did everything possible to give the pups the best start. Looking forward to seeing pics whenever they arrive


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2009)

I just want to say well done, 

I wish every breeder (no matter whether crossbreed or pedigree alike) would take the time to look into the health tests available.

I dont know much about golden retriever x poodles (goldendoodles) or any of the doodle types for that matter.

Are there any specific health problems that have occurred through the crossing? I.E Something that isnt seen or isnt common in either of the purebreds used to create them? 

sal x


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

poison girl ur white dog...what breed is it? he/she is lovely!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I just want to say well done,
> 
> I wish every breeder (no matter whether crossbreed or pedigree alike) would take the time to look into the health tests available.
> 
> ...


Not that we're aware or that has been openly reported. Elmo suffered from pano when younger but we're sure this was a diet issue as opposed to inheriting it.

I will be searching for more information as we go along.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Are there any specific health problems that have occurred through the crossing? I.E Something that isnt seen or isnt common in either of the purebreds used to create them?


You can't create health problems, they have to be there already genetically. 
Any problem that exists in both breeds has the potential to be reproduced in offspring. When crossing first crosses, while there is such a thing as hybrid vigour (apart from (problems common to both breeds), as soon as you breed back (ie the next generation), you risk producing even more problems because you potentially have problems from two different breeds. This is one reason, why you have to be extra careful when undertaking this kind of breeding.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Elmo suffered from pano when younger but we're sure this was a diet issue as opposed to inheriting it.


There are various different opinions on whether pano is inherited - for some the jury is still out, but current thinking is that pano is not inherited but rather like 'growing pains' in children.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Well done for doing all the research first and I can't wait to see the puppies they're going to be beautiful. Good luck with the research and finding a good stud dog.


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## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

Do you think you will struggle to find a stud dog that is health tested because you want to cross? Just something I was wondering earlier.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

I love Hunny B and am really excited to read all about the health tests, finding a stud and eventually the puppies.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

staceydawlz said:


> poison girl ur white dog...what breed is it? he/she is lovely!


He is staff/lab x collie 

I'm enjoying reading about Hunny B's breeding program  Will be keeping up to date on this thread (so I cans teal the puppies!  )

xx


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Good luck to you, hope everything works out
I would also get elbows done just to be safe.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thank you everyone for all you helpful advice.
I will let you all know how she does with her test results later in the year.
Think we will get the elbows done too.
Best to be safe than sorry.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

kayz said:


> Do you think you will struggle to find a stud dog that is health tested because you want to cross? Just something I was wondering earlier.


We've certainly not had a problem so far but are only talking to willing owners. Some owners object to their dogs being crossed and that is fine; we don't want to tell anyone what they should do with their dog.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks for the info... Pano isnt something i'm very familar with.

As to the stud, how would one go about choosing the stud - of course all the health tests, but what about the lines? Do you choose dogs who's lines would match the poodle side of hunnyb? 

Sorry if i sound ignorant, but i was under the impression that when choosing a stud, much thought is taken into the process, with hours upon hours of pedigree research, test matings etc... Is this a consideration with doodles (or anyone else seriously and consciencously crossbreeding)?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Our aim is to avoid anything which narrows a gene pool so it would be more to avoid lines (and yes we know B's lines on both sides) than look for specifics. We have (or will have) as much info as we can on B so we are kind of relying on the stud dog's owners to have their info.

On the genetics side, I have work contacts with (an awful lot of) experience so I'm taking advice on this as well. Friends in the US have also recommended DNA checks undertaken by their breeders so we may well send bloods to the US as well.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Our aim is to avoid anything which narrows a gene pool so it would be more to avoid lines (and yes we know B's lines on both sides) than look for specifics. We have (or will have) as much info as we can on B so we are kind of relying on the stud dog's owners to have their info.
> 
> On the genetics side, I have work contacts with (an awful lot) of experience so I'm taking advice on this as well. Friends in the US have also recommended DNA checks undertakne by their breeders so we may well send bloods to the US as well.


Yep the DNA tests are well worth it, see if you can find a group testing, as its alot cheaper that way as the tests are all sent in a batch 

So your aim is to find a poodle stud of a totally different line to hunnyb's parentage?, is there a reason behind it? I thought the idea was to find a line or stay within a line which will compliment your dog- i dont know how that applies with crosses though

Sorry for all the questions, i'm genuinely interested and the genetics and lines side very much interests me.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

From the conversations I've had so far it seems best to find a "line" that matches the history (height, weight, bone structure) but to avoid the same line so as to avoid mating with a relative and all the genetic issues associated with that.

The bloods (via DNA test) should rule out those of the same line leaving you with those unrelated dogs. As we know B's history, we can narrow down potential boyfriends to those who have similar history but without any of the same gene pool. That's the theory... I'm not an expert so I've been asking some


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> From the conversations I've had so far it seems best to find a "line" that matches the history (height, weight, bone structure) but to avoid the same line so as to avoid mating with a relative and all the genetic issues associated with that.
> 
> The bloods (via DNA test) should rule out those of the same line leaving you with those unrelated dogs. As we know B's history, we can narrow down potential boyfriends to those who have similar history but without any of the same gene pool. That's the theory... I'm not an expert so I've been asking some


Sounds like you know where your going with your plans,
Well Done!

You know you ought to start a blog as I bet it would make very interesting reading.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Sounds like you know where your going with your plans,
> Well Done!
> 
> You know you ought to start a blog as I bet it would make very interesting reading.


I know where we're going but (as yet) not what I'm doing. I'm relying on others..qualified others admittedly but I need to be sure myself. B is the "apple of my eye" and I'd never forgive myself if I didn't get things right...


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Beautiful picture, met my first doodle last year he was beautiful but black same look as yours but I'm partial to the lighter ones...Jill


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

cav said:


> hi colsy
> good on you for trying to do it right and doing health checks i have my dogs eyes done through the club but my vet also offered give me details of one so maybe yours would do the same
> 
> also are you going keep a puppy for you?
> ...


Its a downright shame that members feel the need to jump on Ethical and Responsibole Breeders on here


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Appreciate the the thought but just to clairfy we are not breeders.. we won't be selling any puppies (if we go ahead) for huge amounts (I will take advice on this also) and pups will only be going to people we know and trust.

We don't plan to have more than one litter (either with B or any subsequent dogs) and our only aim is to have pups with B because we believe she would produce healthy well tempered pups.


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## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

She is so gorgeous!!! 

Is there anyway in the future that Goldendoodles can be KC reg? Is it possible?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

I am bumping this up after the Thread started by Ally. I do believe soem of you Doodle owners have Poor Short Term Memories. Nothing but help, advice and good luck was given in this Thread from all the so called Doodle Haters of this Forum.
To start a thread only to cause trouble imo is pure nastiness especially when it was sooooo uncalled for. 
I do believe this member is still here so I for one have had enough. One rule for some spings to mind. Maybe Ethical Breeders should all be strating threads of imaginary being picked on LOL as its a Joke


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

well i have to say i totally agree with you Lynda!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> well i have to say i totally agree with you Lynda!


Thank you Noushka. Some members are needing to actually read the positives and not exagerate negatives imo Every Breed/type have negatives and most owners/breeders are willing to discuss both


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

clueless said:


> Thank you Noushka. Some members are needing to actually read the positives and not exagerate negatives imo Every Breed/type have negatives and most owners/breeders are willing to discuss both


Totally agree,
This is why I asked what I thought were genuine questions regarding the SBT,standard and health.
I am willing to talk about my breed,good and bad points,I don't see a problem tbh.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Totally agree,
> This is why I asked what I thought were genuine questions regarding the SBT,standard and health.
> I am willing to talk about my breed,good and bad points,I don't see a problem tbh.


Yeah shame you never got answers as we have to answer to Doodle owners when they become annoyed it seems


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> Thank you Noushka. Some members are needing to actually read the positives and not exagerate negatives imo Every Breed/type have negatives and most owners/breeders are willing to discuss both


of course! but some folk are just so touchy.. its getting silly.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Yeah shame you never got answers as we have to answer to Doodle owners when they become annoyed it seems


It's also a shame that no one answered my question as to why it was OK to breed "your" dogs and not mine. The only reason given was to improve the coat.. I could say the same but that is not a reason it's simply asthetics. You breed your dogs to be companions, as do I (or would if I did breed).

I have never tried to get you to stop breeding your dogs nor have I ever tried to put someone off of getting one because "I had a (insert breed) and its coat was awful".... This is just as bad as sallyanne's problem of "I met a staffie and it was aggressive" therefore all staffies are aggressive.. load of old pants.. but so is the doodle comment.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> It's also a shame that no one answered my question as to why it was OK to breed "your" dogs and not mine. The only reason given was to improve the coat.. I could say the same but that is not a reason it's simply asthetics. You breed your dogs to be companions, as do I (or would if I did breed).
> 
> I have never tried to get you to stop breeding your dogs nor have I ever tried to put someone off of getting one because "I had a (insert breed) and its coat was awful".... This is just as bad as sallyanne's problem of "I met a staffie and it was aggressive" therefore all staffies are aggressive.. load of old pants.. but so is the doodle comment.


All I am going to do to answer this post is refer you to your wife's Thread re Honey B Breeding Programme. Never saw anyone on this telling you not to breed YOUR DOG EITHER. Selective memory again I have pm'd your wife about a Puppyfarmer that some uk owners may have some dogs by said person in their Peds. Only to help ya out mind LOL


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> All I am going to do to answer this post is refer you to your wife's Thread re Honey B Breeding Programme. Never saw anyone on their telling you not to breed YOUR DOG EITHER. Selective memory again I have pm'd your wife about a Puppyfarmer that some uk owners may have some dogs by said person in their Peds. Only to help ya out mind LOL


It was on another thread. As I was told earlier it's OK to cross reference.

I do not have a selective memory. You simply ignore the fact that everytime someone on here suggests they might get a poodle cross, the usual suspects wade in like double glazing salesmen (no offence to them) saying "what about this breed or that breed" and "you can never be sure of temperment with a cross" etc etc "I had a poodle cross and it had a bad coat" infering that's the case with all (although on the consistency arguement that kind of falls by the wayside).

I've got really got fed up with the bleeding heart stance you all take about "why are these doodle people on here with a chip on their shoulder" because all the time you lot infer some superiority I'll come on and try (against the odds) to balance the books.

If someone came on here and said (and I use this example deliberately) "I'm interested in buying a staffie" and someone replied "oh my friend had one of them and it bit him so I wouldn't get one" then you would (quite rightly) tell said person what tosh they were talking... (as would I)

... yet when one person comes on and says "well I had a doodle and it had bad coat/bad breeder/was mad/all the other stuff" you all nod sagely to one another like you're some sort of authority on the subject and to paraphrase one poster "well I'm just stating facts".... as James May would say, what a load of old...

... can't swear but you know what I mean.

I'll not post again on this... last time I tried to argue back I got accused of bullying women so this time it'll probably be spreading the plague or something.

BTW .. always been happy to discuss negatives... it just seems that you can all post negatives (based on nothing) about our "breed" (and we're supposed to be gracious about it) yet the other way round......


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> It was on another thread. As I was told earlier it's OK to cross reference.
> 
> I do not have a selective memory. You simply ignore the fact that everytime someone on here suggests they might get a poodle cross, the usual suspects wade in like double glazing salesmen (no offence to them) saying "what about this breed or that breed" and "you can never be sure of temperment with a cross" etc etc "I had a poodle cross and it had a bad coat" infering that's the case with all (although on the consistency arguement that kind of falls by the wayside).
> 
> ...


LOL you can spread the plaque with me all ya want. I think you should look at a lot of Threads started with someone wishing to buy a Pedigree dog. There is a lot of negatives and FACTS given in these threads as well.
I mentioned before that I was told I was cruel for shaving one of my dogs so imo its not all about the Hard Done by Doodle owners.
Each and every one breed of dog gets their fair share. 
There is a Thread running at the moment re someone wishing a Springer or Collie. Its not all positive comments, a lot of members are trying to put their points across good and bad on it.
Facts are facts Elmo and that is all that is stated on Doodle threads imo re coats etc....people ask
ps So you may know me better, anyone asking about my dogs for sale always get told the Bad Facts first and foremost


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

BTW .. always been happy to discuss negatives... it just seems that you can all post negatives (based on nothing) about our "breed" (and we're supposed to be gracious about it) yet the other way round......

Just noticed your add on
negatives about your breed are not posted based on nothing imo
I will let you into a secret( now do not tell anyone) One of my so called friends let a neighbour use her Standard Poodle on his Lab last year. This year and may I say back to back breeding it gets repeated I asked her the same questions i ask about this type of breeding and I am still after a reply. She has totally changed since she joined the money making breeding programme imo
Do I still like her and her dogs YES BUT not her practices I have never stated I do not like you or your wife's intention to breed as at least you are doing it ethically


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> BTW .. always been happy to discuss negatives... it just seems that you can all post negatives (based on nothing) about our "breed" (and we're supposed to be gracious about it) yet the other way round......
> 
> Just noticed your add on
> negatives about your breed are not posted based on nothing imo
> ...


So Clueless you are not negative, just read the above i feel most of this is negative.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

Colsy said:


> I am going to breed Hunny B, Poodle Cross Golden Retriever next year so keep everything crossed for me.
> I am going to get her hip scored at the end of October,lets hope the results come back good.
> The vet says this costs about £160 is that about right ?
> Also where do i get her eyes checked as the vets dont do this.
> ...


hi, (please read the following in its entirety as picking only one one bit and taken out of context won;t make any sense): F1 crosses usually does not require testing unless both breeds suffer genetic ailment in the same chromosomal alleles or have some dominant genetic faults. breeding back to one of the breeds making up the cross then can cause problems although not likely, the probability is very high and grows rapidly form F3 to F4 onward. there are provisos: in the case of recessive ailments in the same chromosomal bits - that is they have recessive chromosomal faults in the same section of their DNA - will give you pups that are carries and are affected by the ailment. For dominant DNA faults they DO need testing for in ANY section of their DNA (usually by researching the specific breeds make-up of your cross an experienced geneticist will know or find out which is dominant). if any of these faults are found or likely, then the bitch shouldn't be bred from.

a rough explanation can be the following: 
*recessive faults:*

dam effected and sire uneffected => healthy pups but probably carriers

dam effected and sire uneffected => healthy pups but probably carriers

dam and sire effected => ill pups and surely carriers

*for dominant faults:*

dam effected and sire uneffected => probably ill pups and certainly carriers

dam effected and sire uneffected => probably ill pups and certainly carriers

dam and sire effected => ill pups and surely carriers

Specific information can be obtained from from a BVA geneticist. 
re. doing breed common KC tests will be useful only for selling purposes and nothing more because they are comparative. that is the scores are compared to the average and median scores obtained by similar tests carried out on dogs of the same breed and then the BVA suggest to breed from those dogs that have scores below average. i am not aware that poodle X golden crosses have a database with BVA standard tests scores against which you can compare yours. for this reason, i would suggest you strongly enlist the help of a trained and qualified geneticist (at a PhD level for good measure, you can find them lurking in laboratories in your nearest University /department of Biology, Medical Biotechnology, and similar, forget the vet, unless they are geneticist, their usual qualification only covers the basic genetics and you'll need something a bit more advanced than that) and discuss with them the ailments that are common to BOTH breeds and that are DOMINANT and RECESSIVE to draw up your conclusions.

i think the push for doing tests no matter what...is a rather pointless venture and if not done with the necessary knowledge USELESS as genetic illness will be passed on even with clear tests. that's why consulting a geneticist with that specific knowledge will be much helpful in producing healthy pups (from crosses of known parentage) and, if tests are required a swab under the tongue is all that is needed.

My post is ONLY to give a flavour of what's necessary, i am not a geneticist BUT i have recently used the services of one, and this is what i was explained. please be smart for the sake of your dog and her pups, and do your research properly using scientific peer-reviewed publications available at the BVA (or suggested by Veterinarians with specialisation in genetics of the BVA) and not books and articles over the internet written by well meaning people "that have been doing this for decades with outstanding results" but haven't got the necessary qualification and consult a geneticist, they are usually eager to help (for a small fee). just to give you an example...a doctor in genetics has at least 7 years of advanced and structured study on this particular subject ONLY under its belt....for as much as a well informed experienced breeder or a practice vet will not be able to give you the latest scientific insights!
hope this helps
best
d


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thank you for the advice.
We are going to get bloods from both parents to be.
I was told they get sent off to the States and checked.
Still doing our research on all of the above.
Just to let you all know if the tests come back with any problems WE WILL NOT BREED.
But thanks for all your advice it really helps.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Dont forget I want to come and see them if this goes ahead


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## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

How is it all going?

I met my first goldendoodle the other day and he looked just like Hunny B. Just a bit smaller so probably younger. Very cute


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Thank you for the advice.
> We are going to get bloods from both parents to be.
> I was told they get sent off to the States and checked.
> Still doing our research on all of the above.
> ...


there is no need for drawing blood, a swab under the tongue is more than enough to get the necessary DNA material.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

dimkaz said:


> there is no need for drawing blood, a swab under the tongue is more than enough to get the necessary DNA material.


Thanks but we are sending bloods to the USA and this will also tell us alot of other things.
But thank you for you fab advice.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Thanks but we are sending bloods to the USA and this will also tell us alot of other things.
> But thank you for you fab advice.


if you are referring to the parentage/blood mix etc etc i am warning you that it does not work for European dogs, in the US they do their own test and compare results with DNA signatures they have on their database (which is limited to the US breeds population and only a small part or sample of it...). if for any other reason, well you seem to know what you are looking for, it is your commitment you are putting on the line, so go for it! 
good luck with everything
best
d


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> So Clueless you are not negative, just read the above i feel most of this is negative.


Doh!! Yes It is negative WHY ??? The reason being no health tests were done, back to back breeding was done and money signs took over a once responsible breeder so yes negative on that front but have I ever been negative re Honey B breeding programme on this thread????? Nit picking imo


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Doh!! Yes It is negative WHY ??? The reason being no health tests were done, back to back breeding was done and money signs took over a once responsible breeder so yes negative on that front but have I ever been negative re Honey B breeding programme on this thread????? Nit picking imo[/QUOTE
> 
> So why are you telling me this about another breeder NOT health testing.
> I WILL BE HEALTH TESTING
> ...


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> clueless said:
> 
> 
> > Doh!! Yes It is negative WHY ??? The reason being no health tests were done, back to back breeding was done and money signs took over a once responsible breeder so yes negative on that front but have I ever been negative re Honey B breeding programme on this thread????? Nit picking imo[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Colsy I use Ingen for my DNA Tests. They are cheaper than Optigen and they use swabs rather than blood samples. Here is link with tests they do on Goldendoodles Easy DNA Testing for your Pets | PawsitiveID (Exclusively Provided by iNGen)


Clueless are both of these eye tests accepted from the KC ?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Clueless are both of these eye tests accepted from the KC ?


The ingen ones are not but then again my Breed is not on the KC list for eye tests. My Breed Club and Crested Database accept them.
ps Meant to add a member on here asked me that awhile ago and Iemailed the KC as they also did. I will see if I kept the email and PM you it as they state on it they cannot really not accept test results as all the info is on the Certificates just the same as Optigen


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

quick question -can these tests be done by the AHT too? and are they accepted? if so then its another option and based in the uk....

Animal Welfare, Cat, Dog, Horse, Charity, Donations, DNA Testing, Veterinary, Animal Health Trust

sorry if its been mentioned before, i'm guilty tonight of not reading the rest of the thread since i was last on it x


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> quick question -can these tests be done by the AHT too? and are they accepted? if so then its another option and based in the uk....
> 
> Animal Welfare, Cat, Dog, Horse, Charity, Donations, DNA Testing, Veterinary, Animal Health Trust
> 
> sorry if its been mentioned before, i'm guilty tonight of not reading the rest of the thread since i was last on it x


Never used them. I had a look though and PRA prcd for Cresteds is not on the list not Labradoodles. So would not help out me or Colsy imo.
I have only ever used Optigen in the past and now Ingen as they are cheaper than Optigen. It still works out expensive though imo. I just recently paid £110 for PRA test as pound poor against the Dollar Aaaargh


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## poochimama (Apr 24, 2008)

k.c dont put pawsitive on k.c docs colsy i was the other member who checked it out with the k.c and the company they only do it through optigen (k.c) 

i rang AHT newmarket who do some testing for other breeds but not the poodle grrr . i think its a shame that the uk kennel club can't work with someone here in the uk so we can get our dogs tested here cheaper


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

poochimama said:


> k.c dont put pawsitive on k.c docs colsy i was the other member who checked it out with the k.c and the company they only do it through optigen (k.c)
> 
> i rang AHT newmarket who do some testing for other breeds but not the poodle grrr . i think its a shame that the uk kennel club can't work with someone here in the uk so we can get our dogs tested here cheaper


I emailed them after ya lol and told them I did not understand why they could not accept ingen as it is the same test. They said they were going to look into it Will have to wait and see what happens.
Bit unfortunate for you Poochimama as Poodles are on the KC Schemes
so test results are important to your breed to get included on the KC Documents.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

clueless said:


> Never used them. I had a look though and PRA prcd for Cresteds is not on the list not Labradoodles. So would not help out me or Colsy imo.
> I have only ever used Optigen in the past and now Ingen as they are cheaper than Optigen. It still works out expensive though imo. I just recently paid £110 for PRA test as pound poor against the Dollar Aaaargh


ah sorry my bad... i know a few cat breeders who use them for their pkd testing - wasnt sure about the dog tests.

x


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> quick question -can these tests be done by the AHT too? and are they accepted? if so then its another option and based in the uk....
> 
> Animal Welfare, Cat, Dog, Horse, Charity, Donations, DNA Testing, Veterinary, Animal Health Trust
> 
> sorry if its been mentioned before, i'm guilty tonight of not reading the rest of the thread since i was last on it x


Different places do different tests - it really has nothing to do with the kc.
I've used AHT for cnm testing and they were good and cheaper than sending to the USA.

They do offer discounts if a number of tests are done together. I have mine done that way as I know someone who organises them. It may well be worth contacting your breed club to see if anyone does this. I understand they also may put details on the website of future 20/20 clinics.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I want to cover all ground before even thinking about breeding.
Surely the KC want you to have all the best results possible why dont they accept both eye tests just a question.
I would eye test 100% even if i had pedigree dog even if its not necessary for the breed,it would be for my own piece of mind.
Thanks for all the advice


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> I want to cover all ground before even thinking about breeding.
> Surely the KC want you to have all the best results possible why dont they accept both eye tests just a question.
> I would eye test 100% even if i had pedigree dog even if its not necessary for the breed,it would be for my own piece of mind.
> Thanks for all the advice


Thats what I asked them Colsy even although as I said my Breed are not on their Scheme A or B.
I still eye test and as long as I know I do and my future pup owners know I have then I do not really see a problem. The KC are a registry not a Breeder so imo Breeders should be 100% responsible when it comes to Breeding


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Well, genetic testing is still in it's infancy compared to many other tests, new tests are being developed all the time, some more relevant to some breeds than others.  Don't forget, the tests are breed specific, so for example, a pra test is available for some breeds but not others. Also, the testing centres need to look at profitability regarding the tests so they are more unlikely to put the research into a test for a condition where few if any of the breed suffers.

Just as an aside, as you are breeding a cross (the same would apply to a non-kc recognised pure breed), does it matter what is recognised by the kc or not? The only reason I can see for it being important is because the kc hold a database that is easily accessible to the public and they don't hold those records for crosses or non kc recognised breeds. Even with kc recognised breeds they don't hold a recognised database for all the tests. For example, they don't, at the moment, hold a database for cnm but that doesn't stop me doing the test or the validity of it. I will simply put a copy of the test results in the puppy pack for potential owners.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Thats what I asked them Colsy even although as I said my Breed are not on their Scheme A or B.
> I still eye test and as long as I know I do and my future pup owners know I have then I do not really see a problem. The KC are a registry not a Breeder so imo Breeders should be 100% responsible when it comes to Breeding


Isn't the eye test thats not accepted by the KC a better one,its only what i have read elsewhere.
Just asking because i want to cover everything.
I have just emailed the DNA place so hopefully they will get back to me soo too.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Isn't the eye test thats not accepted by the KC a better one,its only what i have read elsewhere.
> Just asking because i want to cover everything.
> I have just emailed the DNA place so hopefully they will get back to me soo too.


Ingen DNA tests are the exact same as Optigen. Same tests so same results. I have just had a test result back for one of my Bitches and pleased to say she is a Clear for Pra
Optigen are in the process of trying to sue Ingen for copyright so Ingen moved their Labs to the Bahamas


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Different places do different tests - it really has nothing to do with the kc.
> I've used AHT for cnm testing and they were good and cheaper than sending to the USA.
> 
> They do offer discounts if a number of tests are done together. I have mine done that way as I know someone who organises them. It may well be worth contacting your breed club to see if anyone does this. I understand they also may put details on the website of future 20/20 clinics.


Thanks for the info dundee, good to know! xx


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> quick question -can these tests be done by the AHT too? and are they accepted? if so then its another option and based in the uk....
> 
> Animal Welfare, Cat, Dog, Horse, Charity, Donations, DNA Testing, Veterinary, Animal Health Trust
> 
> sorry if its been mentioned before, i'm guilty tonight of not reading the rest of the thread since i was last on it x


Thanks for this inf i have just emailed them and just got a reply back that was quick.I thought i would have to sort my tests out in the USA.

Here's the reply


Although our Research department is working on HC and PRA in Golden Retrievers, Sebaceous Adenitis in Poodles, and various cancers in both breeds, we dont currently offer any DNA tests specifically for either Golden Retrievers or Poodles here at the Animal Health Trust.

I believe there are some tests on Poodles carried out at Optigen in the USA  you would need to contact them directly for details.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Thanks for this inf i have just emailed them and just got a reply back that was quick.I thought i would have to sort my tests out in the USA.


As I said, different places do different tests and do different tests for different breeds as they are breed specific. Depending on the tests you want to do and the number, you will probably have to do them separately. It's unlikely you will find one place that will do all the tests your require.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Optigen carry out PRA prcd tests on Goldendoodles. If you could get 20+ owners wishing their Doodles tested Colsy you could apply to set up a 20/20 clinic and it would work out cheaper


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I know it is a chicken and egg situation in that you probably want to get the tests done to show a pedigree breeder that you are serious and not a BYB, but if you go to all the expense of getting the tests and then find no pedigree breeder who also tests will let you anywhere near their stud then it is all expense for nothing.

Have you made enquiries as to a poodle mate yet?

This is not a criticism, so don't take it that way. I am not trying to start crossbreed world war three just trying to be practical, as finding a stud would have been my first port of call.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I know it is a chicken and egg situation in that you probably want to get the tests done to show a pedigree breeder that you are serious and not a BYB, but if you go to all the expense of getting the tests and then find no pedigree breeder who also tests will let you anywhere near their stud then it is all expense for nothing.
> 
> Have you made enquiries as to a poodle mate yet?
> 
> This is not a criticism, so don't take it that way. I am not trying to start crossbreed world war three just trying to be practical, as finding a stud would have been my first port of call.


I am doing all the right things.
Yes i have found several stud dogs all health tested and KC reg.
I may not use a Poodle what makes you think i am ?
So no problems there.
Just because she is a cross doesnt mean i dont need to do the tests,that would be silly not too.
Mutts,mongrels,crossbreeds and KC dogs should all be health tested at least as breeders we all do the right things.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Colsy said:


> I am doing all the right things.
> Yes i have found several stud dogs all health tested and KC reg.
> *I may not use a Poodle what makes you think i am ?*


Your original post on this thread.


Colsy said:


> *I am hoping to breed her with a Apricot Standard Poodle thats also been health tested,still looking for one.*


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Your original post on this thread.


Oh i see yes i found one a beautiful apricot standard poodle.
But i have since found others just so many to pick from.
Also i could go with another poodle cross/ retriever found lots of them too.
We will make up our minds when we feel we have found the perfect match.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

_We will make up our minds when we feel we have found the perfect match._

What would you consider a perfect match?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> _We will make up our minds when we feel we have found the perfect match._
> 
> What would you consider a perfect match?


Whats this a quiz ?


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

good luck with your search, glad your taking your time and doing all the right things,and not rushing into the first dog that comes along,


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Rough said:


> _We will make up our minds when we feel we have found the perfect match._
> 
> What would you consider a perfect match?


I think you may find this is a genuine question Colsy. Ped Breeders get asked it. IMO The poster is maybe just asking if you have found a Stud to compliment Hunny
eg When I am looking for a Stud for a certain Bitch of mine I try and look for a dog with similiar lines but with certain looks that could improve on an imperfection of my Bitch eg.. Stud with longer neck, darker eye, better skin, coat, longer length of leg, better angulation or even better shoulder placement depending on what I feel needs improved in the Bitch really


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> I think you may find this is a genuine question Colsy. Ped Breeders get asked it. IMO The poster is maybe just asking if you have found a Stud to compliment Hunny
> eg When I am looking for a Stud for a certain Bitch of mine I try and look for a dog with similiar lines but with certain looks that could improve on an imperfection of my Bitch eg.. Stud with longer neck, darker eye, better skin, coat, longer length of leg, better angulation or even better shoulder placement depending on what I feel needs improved in the Bitch really


Done all this and the DNA tests will be posted shortly to the USA.
I have friends who breed out in the States who are helping me too.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Done all this and the DNA tests will be posted shortly to the USA.
> I have friends who breed out in the States who are helping me too.


Good I take it you have decided to go with Optigen then?
Another good thing to do about the tud Dog is try and see what progency he has produced


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Good I take it you have decided to go with Optigen then?
> Another good thing to do about the tud Dog is try and see what progency he has produced


I am not going to do the eye testing just yet on hold with that as if i am correct in only lass a year.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Colsy said:


> I am not going to do the eye testing just yet on hold with that as if i am correct in only lass a year.


If it's the same as with labs the bva eye test is done annually but the optigen is a one off dna test so can be done at any time as results will not change.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> I am not going to do the eye testing just yet on hold with that as if i am correct in only lass a year.


The cerf done by the BVA opthamologists Colsy only lasts the year. The DNA test for PRAprcd lets you know if the bitch/ dog are clear, carrier or affected.

I found the email I spoke about re ingen and the KC

We regret that there are patent issues for recording the prcd-PRA tests in the UK , so much so that at the current time, legally we can only accept these results directly from Optigen

As yet, as you know we do not record any results for Cresteds as there has never been a need to, but should your breed club wish the KC to start recording these, we would ask a formal request directly from them

Regards

Gary Johnson

Breeder Services Manager


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

_Originally Posted by Rough 
We will make up our minds when we feel we have found the perfect match.

What would you consider a perfect match?

I think you may find this is a genuine question Colsy. _

Absolutely. A simple straightforward question that I am sincerely interested to hear the answer.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> _Originally Posted by Rough
> We will make up our minds when we feel we have found the perfect match.
> 
> What would you consider a perfect match?
> ...


We are in talks and thats between us and the Stud dog owners.
All the paperwork will be produced to the buyer's of the puppies if we decide to breed,and the test come back clear.
Its still a long way off yet,we are still planning.
After all Rome was not built in a day.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

_We are in talks and thats between us and the Stud dog owners._

Of course. I didn't ask what dog you were hoping to use. 
I asked what do you think would make a perfect match for your bitch? What are you looking to improve/change/consolidate?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> _We are in talks and thats between us and the Stud dog owners._
> 
> Of course. I didn't ask what dog you were hoping to use.
> I asked what do you think would make a perfect match for your bitch? What are you looking to improve/change/consolidate?


Yes we can certainly improve as can all breeds.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

_Yes we can certainly improve _

What? What are your aims? I'm trying to understand .......


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> _Yes we can certainly improve _
> 
> What? What are your aims? I'm trying to understand .......


To produce a happy,heathly litter.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Colsy said:


> To produce a happy,heathly litter.


I'm thinking Rough means what are you looking to improve on?

IE:

My Pomeranian has a slightly flat coat. If I were to breed with an overly fluffy coated bitch who has a line of PERFECT coats, the puppies would hopefully have better coats than the sire.

If my dog were to have uncat-like feet in a breed where feet are meant to be catlike, I could breed with a male that had what my bitch was lacking. If my bitch didn't have quite as nice a set of hocks as she should, I could find a male with impecable hocks and chances are that 50% of the puppies would have fantastic hocks like dad.

If you want to produce healthy puppies, you'll need to be able to list down all of your bitch's imperfetions and you'll need to find a stud who can help improve on your bitch's forthcomings.

It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl.

I am not saying you shouldn't breed at all. I am saying, however, that you should only breed to IMPROVE the breed and this means using the best and most excellent of specimens, knowing both sides of the pups potential pedigrees inside and out, and doing all health tests AVAILABLE. (not just the recommended ones).


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

casandra said:


> I'm thinking Rough means what are you looking to improve on?
> 
> IE:
> 
> ...


Unlike your rather odd "cat like feet" and "fluffy coat" desires we are more interested in the health aspect. Pedigree breeders have singularly failed to do this in the majority of breeds as the breed standards are simply based around aesthetics for show purposes.

Your idea of IMPROVE is not our idea. I fail to see how breeding a dog to have "cat like feet" improves them.. surely that would be a desirable trait in a cat.

Not having a "fluffy" coat would not be an imperfection. If our dog, for instance, was not in proportion to comfortably carry its own weight I would look for a partner that had traits to compensate. If the dog had problems breathing because of the bone structure of its skull I would look to find a partner to correct this... I would not concentrate on trivial issues.

So that is where the difference is. We will breed with health as the number one priority, not to a breed standard that does not have health top of its list and is simply their so a judge knows what to score against.

Our research on health testing has been and will continue to be extensive. When you say "recommended" tests I have concerns who they are recommended by. We are taking our advice from professionals who have no axe to grind so are assured the information we receive is unbiased.

"It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl."

I will not swear because I actually quite like posting on here but who do you actually think you are? Self righteousness takes at least a small degree of knowledge and experience so I would suggest you go play with some other children.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> So that is where the difference is. We will breed with health as the number one priority, not to a breed standard


You don't have a breed standard do you ? So it would be impossible to breed to it anyway.



Elmo the Bear said:


> I will not swear because I actually quite like posting on here but who do you actually think you are? Self righteousness takes at least a small degree of knowledge and experience so I would suggest you go play with some other children.


Was that comment really necessary ?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl.(Quote from Cassandra)

What a really nasty thing to say !
We have already said we are doing everything possible.
This is disgraceful.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

"Was that comment really necessary ?"

It was as necessary as this one:

_"It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl."_

And we have no breed standard as the dogs are crosses so they cannot be "shown".


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

So much for adult conversation then ?
Why can't you ignore those sort of remarks,or reply with something along the lines of,
Sorry you are mistaken,we are taking our time searching for blah blah.

Honestly. :crazy:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> So much for adult conversation then ?
> Why can't you ignore those sort of remarks,or reply with something along the lines of,
> Sorry you are mistaken,we are taking our time searching for blah blah.
> 
> Honestly. :crazy:


Because I tried that and all I got was another load of grief and accused of bullying... so I thought I might as well lower myself down to the level of throwing cheap insults.

If the poster had read the thread and lengths we were going to then they wouldn't have made the comment. It was unecessary and "self rightgeous".

Every time I try to put an "adult" point I am told I am:

1. silly
2. a bully
3. just looking for an argument
4. mocking peoples spelling/grammer
5. a BYB

I'm up for adult... seems to be a certain lack of it round here though.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> It seems to me like you are putting very little thought into anything other than which pretty boy to throw in the back room with your girl."
> 
> And we have no breed standard as the dogs are crosses so they cannot be "shown".


I have no desire to get into another 'debate' and it is clear you are trying to do your best and your research by your girl but would just add in the interests of explanation and also hopefully giving you some more things to think about ...

Breed standards (or in your case as they are crosses and have no breed standard) with regards to showing is less about a 'look' and more about confirmation and how well put together a dog is. There are health implications in this.

I appreciate that you are doing your research regarding health tests, but for these things there are no health tests as such. They can only be judged by someone with indepth knowledge of structure and movement and is something a pet owner would not be able to judge. This is why it is always recommended that if you don't show (you get comments about your dogs good and bad points) then it is important to get several unbiased opinions from people experienced in the breed to assess your bitch's good and bad points.

For instance, there is no health test for a bite, but an incorrect bite can lead to health problems (and is not easy to breed out), incorrect angulation is thought to contribute to crutiate problems... etc etc.
So conformation of the bitch needs to be assessed when considering a stud too. I think this is what Cassandra was referring to.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> I have no desire to get into another 'debate' and it is clear you are trying to do your best and your research by your girl but would just add in the interests of explanation and also hopefully giving you some more things to think about ...
> 
> Breed standards (or in your case as they are crosses and have no breed standard) with regards to showing is less about a 'look' and more about confirmation and how well put together a dog is. There are health implications in this.
> 
> ...


I actually do not care what she was referring to,that remark was a really bang out of ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I actually do not care what she was referring to,that remark was a really bang out of ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!


Well hopefully my post has given you some explanation and some food for thought


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

When we breed we do use the look at your bitch be critical and choose a dog to compliment her, BUT we also watch for temperament which to us is paramount, and then finally research the pedigree I normally go back 10 generations

However

As far as Hunny B goes I think the op is doing as much as she can to breed healthy pups, at the end of the day there is no breed standard so which part of the equation do you choose to improve on , do you go for the poodle and try to improve on the poodle in them or do you go for the golden and improve on that side ?? I think the questions being posed are slightly unfair when this is not an animal with a breed standard as such, both breeds have very different standards - so which to go for

the standards for both are here the red being the poodle

General Appearance
Symmetrical, balanced, active, powerful, level mover; sound with kindly expression.

General Appearance
Well balanced, elegant looking with very proud carriage.

Characteristics
Biddable, intelligent and possessing natural working ability.

Characteristics
Distinguished by a special type of clip for show activity and by a type of coat which does not moult.

Temperament
Kindly, friendly and confident.

Temperament
Gay-spirited and good-tempered.

Head and Skull
Balanced and well chiselled, skull broad without coarseness; well set on neck, muzzle powerful, wide and deep. Length of foreface approximately equals length from well defined stop to occiput. Nose preferably black.

Head and Skull
Long and fine with slight peak. Skull not broad, moderate stop. Foreface strong, well chiselled, not falling away under eyes; cheek bones and muscle flat. Lips tight-fitting. Chin well defined but not protruding. Head in proportion to size of dog.

Eyes
Dark brown, set well apart, dark rims.

Eyes
Almond-shaped, dark, not set too close together, full of fire and intelligence. Eye colour see Colour Clause.

Ears
Moderate size, set on approximate level with eyes.

Ears
Leathers long and wide, set low, hanging close to face.

Mouth
Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.

Mouth
Jaws strong with perfect, regular complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws. A full set of 42 teeth is desirable.

Neck
Good length, clean and muscular.

Neck
Well proportioned, of good length and strong to admit of the head being carried high and with dignity. Skin fitting tightly at the throat.

Forequarters
Forelegs straight with good bone, shoulders well laid back, long in blade with upper arm of equal length placing legs well under body. Elbows close fitting.

Forequarters
Well laid back shoulders, strong and muscular. Legs set straight from shoulders, well muscled.

Body
Balanced, short-coupled, deep through heart. Ribs deep, well sprung. Level topline.

Body
Chest deep and moderately wide. Ribs well sprung and rounded. Back short, strong, slightly hollowed; loins broad and muscular.

Hindquarters
Loin and legs strong and muscular, good second thighs, well bent stifles. Hocks well let down, straight when viewed from rear, neither turning in nor out. Cow-hocks highly undesirable.

Hindquarters
Thighs well developed and muscular; well bent stifles, hocks well let down; hindlegs turning neither in nor out.

Feet
Round and cat-like.

Feet
Tight, proportionately small, oval in shape, turning neither in nor out, toes arched, pads thick and hard, well cushioned. Pasterns strong.

Tail
Set on and carried level with back, reaching to hocks, without curl at tip.

Tail
Previously customarily docked.
Docked: Set on rather high, carried at slight angle away from the body, never curled or carried over back, thick at root.
Undocked: Thick at root, set on rather high, carried away from the body and as straight as possible.

Gait/Movement
Powerful with good drive. Straight and true in front and rear. Stride long and free with no sign of hackney action in front.

Gait/Movement
Sound, free and light movement essential with plenty of drive.
Coat
Flat or wavy with good feathering, dense water-resisting undercoat.

Coat
Very profuse and dense; of good harsh texture. All short hair close, thick and curly. It is strongly recommended that the traditional lion clip be adhered to.

Colour
Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.

Colour
All solid colours. White and creams to have black nose, lips and eye rims, black toenails desirable. Browns to have dark amber eyes, dark liver nose, lips, eye rims and toenails. Apricots and reds to have dark eyes with black points or deep amber eyes with liver points. Blacks, silvers and blues to have black nose, lips, eye rims and toenails. Creams, apricots, reds, browns, silvers and blues may show varying shades of the same colour up to 18 months. Clear colours preferred. Non solid colours are highly undesirable and should be heavily penalised.

Size
Height at withers: dogs: 56-61 cms (22-24 ins); bitches: 51-56 cms (20-22 ins).

Size
Poodles (Standard): over 38 cms (15 ins).
Poodles (Miniature): height at shoulder should be under 38 cms (15 ins) but not under 28 cms (11 ins).
Poodles (Toy): height at shoulder should be under 28 cms (11 ins).

As you can see they are in some places similar but in others very very different I honestly think that this mating should be a case of

health tests & temperament paramount no matter if you decide to improve on say the head carriage do you go for the head carriage of the golden or the poodle, do we want long leathers set low or of moderate size and set on approximate level with eyes.

I will look forward to meeting Honey B in a week or so's time and would gladly point out to them any part of her that I feel is not in balance or is a problem that could be passed on to future progeny, if they so wish


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I honestly think that this mating should be a case of health tests & temperament paramount


Absolutely, and Colsey is doing just that which is to be commended (I did try to help by giving the details of opthalmic vets  ). I was trying to explain what is meant by improving the breed. Yes, some of those are irrelevant, but certain things could have a bearing on health of future puppies for which there aren't health tests, it is not simply about looks.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Dundee said:


> Absolutely, and Colsey is doing just that which is to be commended (I did try to help by giving the details of opthalmic vets  ). I was trying to explain what is meant by improving the breed. Yes, some of those are irrelevant, but certain things could have a bearing on health of future puppies for which there aren't health tests, it is not simply about looks.


Which is why I have offered to give her the once over when I meet up with them in the next couple of weeks


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

I think they're doing a great job doing every health test they can, finding the right stud and everything. I definately can't wait to see the puppies if you do decide to breed after all the results


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## Mary05 (Aug 25, 2009)

I hope I don;t get jumped on for saying this, but in my day we didn't do all these checks and mostly things worked out well. that said I think nowadyas the knowledge is there to learn and this person cosly seems to be learning as much as they can first. It is important I feel that although the pups need to be asthetically pleasing, the health long term is much more important. I wish I had been privy to such information when my Willem and I were breeding in the 70s and 80s. Good luck with your endeavours and how envious I am as one would love to breed again but alas cannot even walk my babe anymore.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

_I think the questions being posed are slightly unfair when this is not an animal with a breed standard as such, both breeds have very different standards - so which to go for _

I don't think that the questions are unfair at all. As you say, the 2 breeds are miles apart, and the very reasonable question was which direction was the aim? Just happy healthy puppies is a good start, but only the start when thinking about breeding. And that's the same starting point for the vast majority of pedigree breeders too.

The focus appears to be only based on temperament and health tests, which of course are important, but with little understanding as Dundee has pointed out, of any other hereditary conformation possibilities in the rest of the dog. And these health tests and good temperaments need to be good for a few generations, not just the parents and grandparents, to have significant influence on the pups produced, but that's not been mentioned either...........
Good hips/temperament mated to good hips/temperament doesn't necessarily produce good hips/temperament if there are bad hips/temperament a few generations back.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Dundee said:


> I have no desire to get into another 'debate' and it is clear you are trying to do your best and your research by your girl but would just add in the interests of explanation and also hopefully giving you some more things to think about ...
> 
> Breed standards (or in your case as they are crosses and have no breed standard) with regards to showing is less about a 'look' and more about confirmation and how well put together a dog is. There are health implications in this.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I was trying to get to exactly this. Thanks also to Tashi for providing the side by side standards. They should be doubly helpful.

Also, I was just giving experiences that I have had in breeds that I am somewhat knowledgable in. Cat feet are Dobermann traits.

I'm going to apologize now for how my comment was taken. I meant it in a lighthearted (hey that dog is a tease for having so many potential boyfriends!) kind of way. I do think that OP is doing a lot to ensure the breeding she is planning is perfect. I was more curious as well as to whether she wants to incorporate more poodle into the line or retriever. If you have a poodle as the sire, you're pups should be more elegant and their fur has a higher chance of being poodle-like. If the stud is a Retriever, the pups are more likely to grow into a more chunky, thickset dog with shedding fur. My cousin has a f1 goldendoodle whom I love to death, and I do not breed, so in no way am I self-righteous.

I am just hoping to add an opinion. I don't want to start a fight over anything. I do wish OP the very best with her breeding and I am very excited to see pups that she produces.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough... whatever we say you're going to say the opposite so I won't do you the courtesy of a reply. I think we'll just get on with it and not mention it on here again.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Rough said:


> _I think the questions being posed are slightly unfair when this is not an animal with a breed standard as such, both breeds have very different standards - so which to go for _
> 
> I don't think that the questions are unfair at all. As you say, the 2 breeds are miles apart, and the very reasonable question was which direction was the aim? Just happy healthy puppies is a good start, but only the start when thinking about breeding. And that's the same starting point for the vast majority of pedigree breeders too.
> 
> ...


agreed but I would be willing to check out both sides of the pedigree for them I have had goldens and my parents for the past 40+ years and a friend of mine the same with poodles - as I say I check back 10 generations when I breed from my dogs :wink5:


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

Your lack of input speaks volumes!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> Your lack of input speaks volumes!


There's a Ronan Keating number there somewhere.....

or Keith Whitley originally


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## poochimama (Apr 24, 2008)

i have been reading so many posts over the last fortnight the same old subject ,the same old points going round and round in circles . I know of a breeder that has never health tested and shes never had a dog or puppy had any problems and maintains she wont either after 50 yrs
I salute colsy for trying to do the right thing shes trying to sort out testing ,find the right stud for her dog in looks and temperment 
We all have our preferences in all honesty whatever breed i say live and let live ppl have what they want . when ppl see the irate conversations on here im sure its offputting and ppl just keep quiet rather than get embroiled into it.
why not just agree to disagree and lighten up the mood on here and move on.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

poochimama said:


> i have been reading so many posts over the last fortnight the same old subject ,the same old points going round and round in circles . I know of a breeder that has never health tested and shes never had a dog or puppy had any problems and maintains she wont either after 50 yrs
> I salute colsy for trying to do the right thing shes trying to sort out testing ,find the right stud for her dog in looks and temperment
> We all have our preferences in all honesty whatever breed i say live and let live ppl have what they want . when ppl see the irate conversations on here im sure its offputting and ppl just keep quiet rather than get embroiled into it.
> why not just agree to disagree and lighten up the mood on here and move on.


IMO Anytime someone tries to lighten the mood they are jumped on.
Tashi have you got a Golden Retriever in mind that would be suitable???


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

clueless said:


> Tashi have you got a Golden Retriever in mind that would be suitable???


I think they are thinking standard poodle arent they ??


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

tashi said:


> I think they are thinking standard poodle arent they ??


I think colsy did say they had a standard apricot poodle in mind..but they would consider something else it didnt have to be a poodle...I might be wrong


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

_There's a Ronan Keating number there somewhere.....
or Keith Whitley originally_
That might be funny if it wasn't such a sad situation. :thumbdown:

_Anytime someone tries to lighten the mood they are jumped on._
I think this is just too serious a situation to be take lightly Clueless. Or should I say too clueless a situation to be taken not to be taken seriously? Whichever way, it's very sad.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> _There's a Ronan Keating number there somewhere.....
> or Keith Whitley originally_
> That might be funny if it wasn't such a sad situation. :thumbdown:
> 
> ...


Can you explain what is sad please ?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Colsy, I think doing the tests before breeding is great, and whatever stud you use I believe you will ensure it has been tested too. So therefore you are ensuring future owners that everything possible has been done to make sure that their new pup has the best chance of a happy healthy life. This is the first time in my life I have not had cross breeds, and to be honest I kinda miss that quite often if someone wants a cross breed they know what kinda cross they want. We used to have a llasha x poodle my daughter told me when she can get her 1 st dog she wants one. I hope there are people out there when shes ready that are health testing like you....Jill


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> Colsy, I think doing the tests before breeding is great, and whatever stud you use I believe you will ensure it has been tested too. So therefore you are ensuring future owners that everything possible has been done to make sure that their new pup has the best chance of a happy healthy life. This is the first time in my life I have not had cross breeds, and to be honest I kinda miss that quite often if someone wants a cross breed they know what kinda cross they want. We used to have a llasha x poodle my daughter told me when she can get her 1 st dog she wants one. I hope there are people out there when shes ready that are health testing like you....Jill


Thanks Jill much appreciated
We will do everything right on my dogs side and the stud dog the same.
But if her health tests come back poor we will not even consider breeding,as it would not be fair on her,her puppies and the people who are having them.
Thanks again for your kind words.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> Colsy, I think doing the tests before breeding is great, and whatever stud you use I believe you will ensure it has been tested too. So therefore you are ensuring future owners that everything possible has been done to make sure that their new pup has the best chance of a happy healthy life. This is the first time in my life I have not had cross breeds, and to be honest I kinda miss that quite often if someone wants a cross breed they know what kinda cross they want. We used to have a llasha x poodle my daughter told me when she can get her 1 st dog she wants one. I hope there are people out there when shes ready that are health testing like you....Jill


Couldn't agree more 

Good luck Colsy - I hope all the health test come back good for you.

I don't breed, no nothing about breeding - but to me it doesn't matter a person breeds as long as they do so ethically with the correct health tests etc.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Hiya Colsy ive just caught up with this, as I saw you were upset on the other thread.

I can see why you would have thought some comments to be rude, but to be honest i was about to ask the same question , again just out of interest because as you know i dont breed but i am interested.

I was going to ask what else you look for in a stud? after all the health tests i mean?

Do you look at any conformation or movement or temperament "faults" that HunnyB might have?

Such as a slightly weaker muscle tone, or bad bite or activity levels?

Do you then find a dog which should help counterbalance those faults. 

( i am not for one minute suggesting Hunnyb has those faults they were for example only)

I know there isnt a standard to go by, but of course there is the health of the dog which goes on and beyond the test results. 


How do you choose a stud when you dont have a standard i guess is what i am asking? There must be more than just the health tests.

Sorry if this shows how ignorant i am in doodle breeding, I admire you for doing all the right health tests, but i was just wondering how you would choose from maybe 3 potential studs with equaly good health test results.

I know its a bit like 20 questoins, but i am genuinly interested.

sal x


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Hiya Colsy ive just caught up with this, as I saw you were upset on the other thread.
> 
> I can see why you would have thought some comments to be rude, but to be honest i was about to ask the same question , again just out of interest because as you know i dont breed but i am interested.
> 
> ...


I know what most folk are waiting for me to say i will breed like from like but ok i will own up how can i they are Cross breeds.
But i will do everthing else in my power to aim for good heathly puppies from good heathly parents.
Why dont you ask all the other cross breed owners all these questions i am not a breeder yet and may never be.
But some are that maybe able to help with all these question try googling Goldenddoodle/Labradoodle breeder's i am sure they would be delighted to help.
Not being rude only honest.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> I know what most folk are waiting for me to say i will breed like from like but ok i will own up how can i they are Cross breeds.
> But i will do everthing else in my power to aim for good heathly puppies from good heathly parents.
> Why dont you ask all the other cross breed owners all these questions i am not a breeder yet and may never be.
> But some are that maybe able to help with all these question try googling Goldenddoodle/Labradoodle breeder's i am sure they would be delighted to help.
> Not being rude only honest.


actually colsy thats a bluddy good idea.

I have a friend who has on occasion bred labradoodles for a well known charity. Her choice of stud is all about temperament and training (once you have the health tests out of the way), but also about the general conformation of the dog. I was interested in what your criteria was thats all.

I wasnt aware there were many other x-breed breeders on here, but if i came accross their thread i would ask the same questions, it is just out of genuine interest. I have asked the same questions of pedigree breeders too, however their responses are a little more predictable as they tend to be trying to breed out the faults of the breed standard. Dont feel like i was picking on you - its just a genuine interest. I'm not a breeder either but it does fascinate ne.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> actually colsy thats a bluddy good idea.
> 
> I have a friend who has on occasion bred labradoodles for a well known charity. Her choice of stud is all about temperament and training (once you have the health tests out of the way), but also about the general conformation of the dog. I was interested in what your criteria was thats all.
> 
> I wasnt aware there were many other x-breed breeders on here, but if i came accross their thread i would ask the same questions, it is just out of genuine interest. I have asked the same questions of pedigree breeders too, however their responses are a little more predictable as they tend to be trying to breed out the faults of the breed standard. Dont feel like i was picking on you - its just a genuine interest. I'm not a breeder either but it does fascinate ne.


No there is not many on this forum thats sad most have gone.
I would like them to come back and more to join,but its not always the way.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> No there is not many on this forum thats sad most have gone.
> I would like them to come back and more to join,but its not always the way.


Colsy who have gone??


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Colsy who have gone??


Lots of doodle owners


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Lots of doodle owners


I never noticed doodle owners leave


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Well that is a shame colsy because i for one would be interested in knowing more ethical x-breed breeders. 

It would be helpful to point someone who is after one of these pups to point them in the direction of a good breeder rather than someone advertising their pups through the free-ads because they didnt really put the proper thought into breeding. At the moment its easier to point someone after a pedigree in the direction of good breeders and thats a shame, for someone wanting a health tested x-breed then more members who breed these would be good imho.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

I never knew anyone had left but then you and your husband where the first two i ever spoke to about doodles on this forum so i wasnt aware other owned them !!  Maybe if you know who they are you can get them back


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I never knew anyone had left but then you and your husband where the first two i ever spoke to about doodles on this forum so i wasnt aware other owned them !!  Maybe if you know who they are you can get them back


I know lots.
There have been here but not returned.
Now i just feel we all should have the right to have which dog's we choose.
You love yours of course and we love ours.
Unite and be happy.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Well that is a shame colsy because i for one would be interested in knowing more ethical x-breed breeders.
> 
> It would be helpful to point someone who is after one of these pups to point them in the direction of a good breeder rather than someone advertising their pups through the free-ads because they didnt really put the proper thought into breeding. At the moment its easier to point someone after a pedigree in the direction of good breeders and thats a shame, for someone wanting a health tested x-breed then more members who breed these would be good imho.


There are plenty out there.
Just google and you will find.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

_There are plenty out there.
Just google and you will find._

Then maybe a need for you to start a Doodle Forum and all share your Doodle knowledge.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rough said:


> _There are plenty out there.
> Just google and you will find._
> 
> Then maybe a need for you to start a Doodle Forum and all share your Doodle knowledge.


You know we already do that thanks!
But we have the right to post elsewhere we are not lepers


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

Colsy said:


> I know lots.
> There have been here but not returned.
> Now i just feel we all should have the right to have which dog's we choose.
> You love yours of course and we love ours.
> Unite and be happy.


Yes everyone has a right to choose the breed they own.. and i know you love your dogs i would never say any different.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think the pedigree/cross breed war is one that has gone on for generations. Pedigree (purebred) breeders of all species of animals do not "like" cross breeding they may tolerate perhaps an outcross mating to increase the gene pool or to integrate a specific trait, but otherwise it is a no-no. Many get very attached and fiercely loyal to their breed, so someone coming along and in their eyes corrupting and polluting it, is never going to be accepted by them.

Cross breeding has been frowned upon for a very long time in the pure bred world and being against it is ingrained in a lot of pedigree breeders psyche, I'm afraid.
It is therefore difficult for many to get round that and accept it, on both sides actually. 
Hence the war with both sides entrenched.

It is not about the dogs themselves as everyone loves dogs no matter what their breeding, it is about breeders.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I think the pedigree/cross breed war is one that has gone on for generations. Pedigree (purebred) breeders of all species of animals do not "like" cross breeding they may tolerate perhaps an outcross mating to increase the gene pool or to integrate a specific trait, but otherwise it is a no-no. Many get very attached and fiercely loyal to their breed, so someone coming along and in their eyes corrupting and polluting it, is never going to be accepted by them.
> 
> Cross breeding has been frowned upon for a very long time in the pure bred world and being against it is ingrained in a lot of pedigree breeders psyche, I'm afraid.
> It is therefore difficult for many to get round that and accept it, on both sides actually.
> ...


well said


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy Have or are you considering maybe breeding Hunny to another Goldendoodle?
I believe (correct me if I am wrong please) when the Enthusiastic and Responsible Breeders stared with Labradoodles they were trying to breed to a certain type. In doing this they never backcrossed F1's to poodles or Labradors only other Labradoodles. They tended to pick the best Labradoodle that they thought was better in fleece coat etc.. What da ya think?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Colsy Have or are you considering maybe breeding Hunny to another Goldendoodle?
> I believe (correct me if I am wrong please) when the Enthusiastic and Responsible Breeders stared with Labradoodles they were trying to breed to a certain type. In doing this they never backcrossed F1's to poodles or Labradors only other Labradoodles. They tended to pick the best Labradoodle that they thought was better in fleece coat etc.. What da ya think?


Thanks Clueless.I have thought about this.
But i have researched a bit that if i go for a Poodle the coat has less chance of shedding.
But not a 100 % as nothing is certain with these dogs.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Thanks Clueless.I have thought about this.
> But i have researched a bit that if i go for a Poodle the coat has less chance of shedding.
> But not a 100 % as nothing is certain with these dogs.


Thanks Colsy I get somewhat confused when it comes to percentages of breed within crossbreeds but just thought maybe the goldendoodle x goldendoodle may have worked lol.
If the stud is poodle then would the pups be 75% poodle then imo if you sold pups and the owners decided they wanted to use a poodle eventually the retriever would be lost and the pups would be mostly poodle and vice versa if the retriever is used. I have now confused myself lol
I know we have been reading all about Rutland Manor's breeding practices and obviously this is the road she had went down as now the stories are that her dogs are 98-100%poodle 
So eventually I think you would have to watch incase you have more Poodle than Doodle
Someone help me and colsy out here LOL I get all mixed up when it comes to percentages, although what I think I am trying to say is would an F1 to an F1 not be better in the long run to save problems like Beverley


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think it really depends on what the breed is about and what you want to achieve by breeding it

Does the breed actually want dogs who are 50% lab/poodle all the time or does the poodle or in fact the lab have more of the traits you want to keep and select for?

Obviously taking away the puppy farm allegations of Rutland Manor, the poodle element in those dogs got higher and higher which was done probably to meet the demands of the market, for more of the poodle low shedding type coat and perhaps even more of the poodle look. The clipped poodle is not everyone's idea of heaven but perhaps if more were aware of the Standard poodle unclipped then many more may be interested in the breed.









Hybrid cats like the Bengal, which is slightly different in that if is a hybrid not a cross but the principle is almost the same have less and less ALC in them as you go from F1->F4 unless you keep crossing them back to the ALC to increase the ALC blood %, which rarely happens these days.
Because they only have a small amount of ALC blood does not turn them back into the breeds they were before the initial crosses as certain traits have been selected for, so although the % ALC blood may be small in the majority of Bengals, the influence the ALC genes have made results in an entirely different cat from those who were used in the first cross matings. 
A well bred good Bengal could not be mistaken for any other cat and that is really where the Doodles need to go.

This Rutland Manor fiasco is going to be a blow to serious Doodle breeders, but they need to be producing dogs that will be different enough from an unclipped standard poodle to withstand the criticism which no doubt will eventually filter through, and to try and distance themselves from the legions of BYB and the "one litter" brigade of cross breeders, to produce a true breed identity ie produce a dog that everyone recognises as a goldendoodle without even having to think twice.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

clueless said:


> Thanks Colsy I get somewhat confused when it comes to percentages of breed within crossbreeds but just thought maybe the goldendoodle x goldendoodle may have worked lol.
> If the stud is poodle then would the pups be 75% poodle then imo if you sold pups and the owners decided they wanted to use a poodle eventually the retriever would be lost and the pups would be mostly poodle and vice versa if the retriever is used. I have now confused myself lol
> I know we have been reading all about Rutland Manor's breeding practices and obviously this is the road she had went down as now the stories are that her dogs are 98-100%poodle
> So eventually I think you would have to watch incase you have more Poodle than Doodle
> Someone help me and colsy out here LOL I get all mixed up when it comes to percentages, although what I think I am trying to say is would an F1 to an F1 not be better in the long run to save problems like Beverley


Well, I tried some kind of permalink, but I obviously didn't get it right. Post number 37 - page 4 - explains "If the original poster wants to further the 'Goldendoodle' type, or even if she does not, then a cross between F1 and Poodle is perfectly acceptable, as it has been with the Labradoodle both here and in Australia where they were first established." (Lauren has just done a much more wonderful explanation though).

What problems are you referring to Clueless?

I googled and found this, but wonder if you are referring to something else that might have zipped past (I just read this full thread).

Controversial Issues | Rutland Manor

_*"Rutland Manor Australian Labradoodles Right of Reply to Horrendous Untruthful Attacks on its Integrity and Practices on Public Forums with no right of reply. Supportive Posts Are Deleted Which Makes This Page Necessary"*_


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Rutland Manor Exposed

and

The Truth about Rutland Manor at Prisoners For Profit

and

Is there any Labra in your ASD Labradoodle ? « Rutland Manor Exposed

HTH


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Rutland Manors ASD's have got more than one breed in them i.e collies,wheatens,labs and much more.
I am hardly on par with Rutland Manor i havent even started breeding yet.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

We're not planning on breeding beyond Hunny B so the breeding back to poddle won't apply. 

The "improvement" we would be looking for would be to increase the chances of low shedding. B does not moult (only her puppy coat which has nearly gone) so the theory would be if we mated with a Poodle it would consoildate that in the pups... with another Goldendoodle it may consolidate and with a Retriever it would most likely go the other way. All of this is speculation though so we will have to wait and see. 

I'm not taking chances on health so will test as advised and not just (as I think was mentioned earlier) according to the tests that are supposed to be right for the founder breeds.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> We're not planning on breeding beyond Hunny B so the breeding back to poddle won't apply.


Did you spell that wrong on purpose!  Sorry but made me laugh! 
Well at least you two are not walking into it blindly!
Good luck with the rest of your research!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2009)

Not read the replies to the tread at all! just the first and last post!
There can be no guarantees that any offspring will not moult! but sure you do not need me to tell you this! 
DT


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Did you spell tha wrong on purpose!  Sorry but made me laugh!
> Well at least you two are not walking into it blindly!
> Good luck with the rest of your research!


No dont you know thats a new breed we are making poddle.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2009)

Colsy said:


> No dont you know thats a new breed we are making poddle.


I had wondered !!  :001_tt2:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Not read the replies to the tread at all! just the first and last post!
> There can be no guarantees that any offspring will not moult! but sure you do not need me to tell you this!
> DT


I quite agree, be that a cross or an appaent non-moulting "breed".

I thought that we had doddles... it would mean that half of them would need to poddles...no?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I thought that we had doddles... it would mean that half of them would need to poddles...no?


That was a genuine mistake..


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> We're not planning on breeding beyond Hunny B so the breeding back to poddle won't apply.


Elmo I know you are not but it can and does happen. Someone buys a pup who you totally trust but further down the line decide to hey ho I am wanting to breed


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Rutland Manors ASD's have got more than one breed in them i.e collies,wheatens,labs and much more.
> I am hardly on par with Rutland Manor i havent even started breeding yet.


Colsy in no way was I stating that you are like Rutland Manor What I meant was although Beverley's Breeding programme included the Breeds you have mentioned she continually bred to Poodles in umpteen generations thus losing the original breed types she started with. As being posted around the Net Dogs are now being discovered to be nearly 100% Poodle by her


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

clueless said:


> Colsy in no way was I stating that you are like Rutland Manor What I meant was although Beverley's Breeding programme included the Breeds you have mentioned she continually bred to Poodles in umpteen generations thus losing the original breed types she started with. As being posted around the Net Dogs are now being discovered to be nearly 100% Poodle by her


As i said i am not her and will do everything in my power to produce happy,healthly pups.
Also i would not charge £2,000 plus for one puppy.
Or do early ESN or have contacts stating this.
I would want to keep in contact with all the owner's to and i would be there if they need me.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Hiya

Just caught up with this, the info about rutland manor is shocking, unfortunatly it wont help jo -publics perception of the "breed", because of the misinformation on the internet that these are true doodles.

Colsy, i know i'm not a breeder either, but one of the things i would definatly want if i was to ever breed would be a mentor in the breed who i admired and who would offer me (and even my pups buyers) some of the long term support. A mentor who could help me with selecting the right stud, pointing out impartially my girls weak points, hands on help with the whelping, advice and help with puppy rearing, and the whole shebang. As a novice with little experience of breeding i wouldnt feel comfortable promising long term advice (although i would of course always be there for them), i would want a mentor i could fall back on for further advice and support if needed.

I would get more support from a breeder mentor than i would from an internet forum. Although of course any confirmation of the advice given or "another view" is wonderful.

Not a criticism.... just a friendly suggestion?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks i am friends with a few breeders.
One who actually puts her dogs into Crufts every year.
I was only asking advice all round really.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Thanks i am friends with a few breeders.
> One who actually puts her dogs into Crufts every year.
> I was only asking advice all round really.


I thought that might have been the case   Good to know you have the expert advice behind you, specific to your breed. I wasnt aware doodles could be shown as theyre not a recognised breed, does she compete in the other classes such as agility, flyball and obedience?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I thought that might have been the case   Good to know you have the expert advice behind you, specific to your breed. I wasnt aware doodles could be shown as theyre not a recognised breed, does she compete in the other classes such as agility, flyball and obedience?


She has not got doodles by the way.
But she knows heaps.
Doodles are not a breed at all and i hope they never will be as they are crossed.
I think you can reg doodles under agility with the KC,but i do not do agility as i walk my dogs miles and miles daily.:wink5:


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Colsy said:


> She has not got doodles by the way.
> But she knows heaps.
> Doodles are not a breed at all and i hope they never will be as they are crossed.
> I think you can reg doodles under agility with the KC,but i do not do agility as i walk my dogs miles and miles daily.:wink5:


hiya colsy i know doodles arent a breed - but for want of a better word its just what i used.

With all due respect to your mentor, surely having someone who is experienced in goldendoodles would be beneficial too? to help with any "breed" (doing it again arent i! ) specific problems?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> hiya colsy i know doodles arent a breed - but for want of a better word its just what i used.
> 
> With all due respect to your mentor, surely having someone who is experienced in goldendoodles would be beneficial too? to help with any "breed" (doing it again arent i! ) specific problems?


I have Hunny B's breeder too and some others i know.
I am sure we will be fine thanks for your concern x
We are going down all the alleys promise


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi Colsy
I have not been on for ages so just caught up witht the thread. I had my Vizsla's hip scores done just outside of eastleigh and I think it was £50 plus bva which roughly works out at £80 I will pm you here number if I still have it they dont put them out either it is just a sedative and they really know what they are doing. I wish you the best of luck. I wish I could breed my vizzy this season but we are in the throws of moving so it really would not be fair. keep us posted.


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## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

I just wanted to say that your Golden doodles are beautiful and i wish you the best of luck in breeding some in the future

Please dont show me any pics because i will have to come round and take them all xxx


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

vizzy24 said:


> Hi Colsy
> I have not been on for ages so just caught up witht the thread. I had my Vizsla's hip scores done just outside of eastleigh and I think it was £50 plus bva which roughly works out at £80 I will pm you here number if I still have it they dont put them out either it is just a sedative and they really know what they are doing. I wish you the best of luck. I wish I could breed my vizzy this season but we are in the throws of moving so it really would not be fair. keep us posted.


Thank you i know of the lady thanks for the info.
Not too far to travel either.
Thanks again for your help.
Good luck with your move.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Spaniel mad said:


> I just wanted to say that your Golden doodles are beautiful and i wish you the best of luck in breeding some in the future
> 
> Please dont show me any pics because i will have to come round and take them all xxx


Thank you for your kind words.

I'll try not to put too many pic's on promise haa.
x


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

I never seen a doodle, but good luck


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Beloved said:


> I never seen a doodle, but good luck


Oh... any excuse to put some photos on...

Here's a doodle (a Golden one)









and another








and a black one too....


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## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Oh... any excuse to put some photos on...
> 
> Here's a doodle (a Golden one)
> 
> ...


PMG Stop it

I really want one lol


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

do you clip them!? and the black one has the same sort of face as our spinone in the last pic!


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> do you clip them!? and the black one has the same sort of face as our spinone in the last pic!


I thought the same, he does have a spinone look about him


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Beloved said:


> I thought the same, he does have a spinone look about him


hehee it is the eyes, beard and shape of the nuzzle!


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> hehee it is the eyes, beard and shape of the nuzzle!


Whats a bloody nuzzle!!?? :001_tt2:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree (the he is a she BTW) she does have the air of a Spinone. That's Freya a first cross Labrador (mother - black) and Standard Poodle (father - silver).


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Beloved said:


> Whats a bloody nuzzle!!?? :001_tt2:


I have always called it a nuzzle :blushing: some call it the muzzle..is the nose bit of the face!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Beloved said:


> Whats a bloody nuzzle!!?? :001_tt2:




like a muzzle but with a silent 'N' :001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

ITALIAN SPINONE BREEDERS


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> like a muzzle but with a silent 'N' :001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:


Yep!!!  and its what i have always called it! :001_tt2: :001_tt2:


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yep!!!  and its what i have always called it! :001_tt2: :001_tt2:


Steady on mrs! Nuzzle lover!


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Beloved said:


> Steady on mrs! Nuzzle lover!


Naked butt lover if you please!


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I agree (the he is a she BTW) she does have the air of a Spinone. That's Freya a first cross Labrador (mother - black) and Standard Poodle (father - silver).


I never ever seen one before but shes pretty:blushing:


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Beth most of them are pretty!


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

Elmo is her red tash caused by the ions in the tap water? Cos that happens to minni an we was told its cos of the ions in tap water. So we boil ours now


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Beth most of them are pretty!


I wouldnt know Nuzzle face i only ever seen this one!!:001_tt2:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Despite the fact they're a cross I know at a least a half dozen first cross black lab/poodle whose beard has gone brown. They don't live round here so I guess its not water related. must be a recessive "brown" in the pedigree somewhere.


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## Beloved (Aug 6, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Despite the fact they're a cross I know at a least a half dozen first cross black lab/poodle whose beard has gone brown. They don't live round here so I guess its not water related. must be a recessive "brown" in the pedigree somewhere.


It can be any part of country hun, just a thought


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Here's one of friends doodles... same cross... same brown (not related to our Freya at all).


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2009)

aww elmo thats a cute one too..But your Freya has a more spinone look..gorgeous! :001_wub:
Also Fables beard (thats our italion spinone) has got orange bits in it too..


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Minerals in the water can stain facial hair, iron causes reddish brown staining.

Moisture creates a perfect breeding ground for bacteria and/or yeast. Yeast
infections can cause a deep reddish-brown stain too.


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## Mary05 (Aug 25, 2009)

lol


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Elmo is her red tash caused by the ions in the tap water? Cos that happens to minni an we was told its cos of the ions in tap water. So we boil ours now


A labrador is a double coated breed and many black labs have a brownish tinge to their undercoat - it is noticable if you brush the coat backwards. Depending on the type of coat inherited it could be that which is showing through.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Millie has a ginger tash, she has ginger lady bits too but we don't talk about that! :blushing:


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