# Sarah Everard Missing



## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

This is incredibly scary and worrying. A 33 year old lady in London has vanished without a trace. She was walking from Clapham Common area to her home in Brixton, around 9pm last week. Hasn’t been seen or heard from since.

Gosh I pray for a miracle & she’s found safe and well .

If anyone lives in the area please keep a look out or think if you may have noticed something.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

What is this world coming to. A serving Metropolitan Police Officer has been arrested


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Poor woman it’s not looking good let’s hope they find some answers soon.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

It doesnt look good. And the fact they have arrested a serving officer from the Met. Beggars belief.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I just read too about the Met officer and also a woman (on suspicion of assisting an offender). But Clapham Common to Brixton is quite a walk - I wouldn't attempt it in daylight, tho' I don't believe it was terribly late. Awful story. Last I read she had not been found, though a white bobble hat like hers was found in some bushes.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Apparently he is a 48-year-old,married, father of two (Wayne Couzens) and a diplomatic protection officer. They are digging up his garden and have taken his car for examination. Of course, he may be cleared, but very odd for the police to treat one of their own like this for no reason. I don't think things are looking good for this poor girl.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

No, not looking good sadly 
I have been following the story.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2021)

The arrested police officer has been arrested with kidnap, indecent exposure and now further arrested with murder. He is a parliamentary and diplomatic protection command police officer.

https://news.sky.com/story/sarah-everard-disappearance-man-arrested-on-suspicion-of-murder-12241892


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Very sad indeed. She was last seen at 9,30 at night.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I've just been reading about this story, what's scary is it could happen to anyone at any time. Makes you think twice about venturing out doesn't it.

I hope she's found soon.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2021)

Police have found human remains in woodland in Kent:- https://news.sky.com/story/police-s...er-human-remains-in-woodland-in-kent-12241833


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

So sad @rawpawsrus - it is bound to be her


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2021)

tabelmabel said:


> So sad @rawpawsrus - it is bound to be her


I agree.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

What sad news tonight Unimaginable the pain her family will be going through.

The whole thing is terrifying . I live alone in london and it’s made me nervous of even going for a walk in the daytime now


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2021)

When I was younger I remember being taught by my parents how to walk on the streets in such a way that I don’t cause anxiety to others eg women walking alone in the evening. Don’t wear soft soles (so you are heard), cross the road and walk in front of others so they can see you from a safe distance.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

willa said:


> What sad news tonight Unimaginable the pain her family will be going through.
> 
> The whole thing is terrifying . I live alone in london and it's made me nervous of even going for a walk in the daytime now


What I read, is he likely used his warrant card and some pretext, maybe lockdown to lure her closer to the car. With his job he is allowed to carry a weapon.
It wasn't daylight when his actions may have been more visible to others and more people outside.

I tend to cross streets, fall behind etc if I feel uncomfortable.
If I hear footsteps and it is night and not many people out, I tend to move off side or fall back to see who is behind me. Sometimes it is another female but it is better to know who is behind you especially at night. If a male, I move so they pass and I am not in front.
Even in daylight you need to be careful. I recall a school girl a few years ago in London who did cross the road when she thought she was being followed but the guy grabbed her and pulled her off the street and attacked her.

Best you can do is be aware and alert but it does not always help.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Incredibly sad news.

I wonder how they made the jump from a disappearance in London to an arrest and search in Kent.

There must be things they know that haven't been publicised.

Poor girl if it's her


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

MilleD said:


> Incredibly sad news.
> 
> I wonder how they made the jump from a disappearance in London to an arrest and search in Kent.
> 
> ...


The man they think abducted her lives in or is originally from that area in Kent. It was not fully clear to me.
His hired car was caught on a dash cam of another car in the area Sarah was believed abducted in London.


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## 1507601 (Jun 26, 2020)

Beth78 said:


> I've just been reading about this story, what's scary is it could happen to anyone at any time. Makes you think twice about venturing out doesn't it.


Yes, it can. I was nearly abducted a couple of years ago on a sunny afternoon on my way back from the doctors. I don't leave the house alone anymore, but if I did I'd use one of the GPS tracking apps you can get that show others you give the link to your location.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Summercat said:


> The man they think abducted her lives in or is originally from that area in Kent. It was not fully clear to me.
> His hired car was caught on a dash cam of another car in the area Sarah was believed abducted in London.


Ah, ok. I hadn't read that bit about the car. Thanks.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Lucy2020 said:


> Yes, it can. I was nearly abducted a couple of years ago on a sunny afternoon on my way back from the doctors. I don't leave the house alone anymore, but if I did I'd use one of the GPS tracking apps you can get that show others you give the link to your location.


Im sorry to hear this . It must have been very frightening. Years ago I was walking along a road and I had a car with young men in it following me very slowly. I turned round and ran like hell back the way I came.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Why are they saying they found human remains and not a body? Sounds bad. 

So awful , knowing she was going to be die . she must have been terrified .


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Why are they saying they found human remains and not a body? Sounds bad.
> 
> So awful , knowing she was going to be die . she must have been terrified .


Its awful isn't. And if it was the policeman which it looks like it is, how could he use a position of trust to do something so terrible? The guy needs the book throwing at him


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Just a question. 
Have they said neither knew one another?That he used his warrant card and weapon? 
The way they found him as a suspect so quickly I was thinking it was someone she was in a relationship with.
He would still be charged with kidnap etc even if they were in a relationship


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Who do we turn to
When the police are the perpetrators?
We tell our children that police officers are the ones who can always be trusted, that they will look after them and keep them safe
Who do we tell them to trust now
Yes, there are always some bad apples in every barrel of life
Unfortunately, unlike real apples you can't tell the bad ones just by looking at them
This poor woman, thinking she was safe
Only to be betrayed at the last minute
At least now, if the remains are hers, she's at peace
My heart goes out to her friends and, especially her family


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2021)

kimthecat said:


> Why are they saying they found human remains and not a body?


The police have said it can take some time before the remains/body is identified as they have to go through a process.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2021)

It is absolutely shocking that a police officer has used his position of power and trust to do such a horrible crime if it is found to be him. It will make people lose trust in the police as the police are seen as people to turn to when a crime is committed and we are meant to trust them.

Poor woman. I feel sorry for her and her family.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Totally horrendous. Seen that a bus caught something on CCTV and that led the police to him.
Unimaginable the terror poor Sarah must have felt, doesn’t bear thinking about


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

lullabydream said:


> Just a question.
> Have they said neither knew one another?That he used his warrant card and weapon?
> The way they found him as a suspect so quickly I was thinking it was someone she was in a relationship with.
> He would still be charged with kidnap etc even if they were in a relationship


What I read was his using his warrant card to lure her over was a possibility not yet confirmed.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rawpawsrus said:


> The police have said it can take some time before the remains/body is identified as they have to go through a process.


It is more or less assumed to be her . . .I guess it must be, unless of course the guy is a serial killer and has dumped others there?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Summercat said:


> What I read was his using his warrant card to lure her over was a possibility not yet confirmed.


It's all very what if is what am reading, with no true facts per se. Just that they have him arrested and in custody is the only real fact known.

Am just going on, historical facts that have involved police, not necessarily this country but I watch a lot of true crime. To find him so quickly before any body which can yield a lot of evidence it seems there is a massive chunk of knowledge we don't know about. Quite rightly it should be kept in the dark because more witness need to come to the forefront to just to secure the case. Plus remember most people are murdered by someone they know too.

So hopefully we will get the story sooner about what happened. They need to save face on the police front to some degree. It does happen unfortunately as a rule less so by police, but it does happen. Police are individuals


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

He was seen on a bus CCTV and a car dashcam 

Whatever had happened her family deserve answers


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

They say remains if her body is in small pieces or badly damaged.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

He’s been taken to hospital with head injuries, he was found in his cell injured.

Probably banged his head against the wall I’d imagine


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

I keep going around and around with this, it's horrific. 

I can't actually identify the part I'm most horrified by. I can't stop thinking about how terrified Sarah must have been. I can't stop thinking about how pissed I am at everyone making comments about her "breaking the Covid rules". I can't stop thinking that someone who should have been a "safe" person has committed this atrocity. 

I now feel like I NEED to attend one of the Reclaim These Streets vigils. There doesn't feel like there is any other response that we can make. I would need to break Covid rules as there aren't any very close to me - and I am not sure I can fully reconcile myself to that after all these months of not - but I think I do need to. 

RIP Sarah.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Mrs Funkin said:


> I keep going around and around with this, it's horrific.
> 
> I can't actually identify the part I'm most horrified by. I can't stop thinking about how terrified Sarah must have been. I can't stop thinking about how pissed I am at everyone making comments about her "breaking the Covid rules". I can't stop thinking that someone who should have been a "safe" person has committed this atrocity.
> 
> ...


Completely agree the victim blaming is disgusting. As a women I have just gotten used to being nervous to walk or run in the dark, questioning my running routes if the are to isolated. We need change.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

So much in the news about him. I want to know about Sarah. Her hopes, dreams and what she was like. I don’t care what his neighbour thought about the alleged murderer. 

I’m so saddened to read so many accounts. I think every woman I know has something. I’ve had verbal abuse for no reason at all, followed home, my old flat broken into and an attempted rape, and mugged. And I realise that these have shaped me, I cycle at night or drive, I never walk unless it’s my street. I despair.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> I keep going around and around with this, it's horrific.
> 
> I can't actually identify the part I'm most horrified by. I can't stop thinking about how terrified Sarah must have been. I can't stop thinking about how pissed I am at everyone making comments about her "breaking the Covid rules". I can't stop thinking that someone who should have been a "safe" person has committed this atrocity.
> 
> ...


I too cannot for the life of me imagine who would want to molest or kill this lovely girl. Just walking home - or hoping to (never made it) - not dressed to attract attention - trousers, waterproof jacket and bobble hat - nothing to suggest to some weirdo that she was ''up for it''. I have spoken to several people, and read quite a few times: 'Oh, she must have known him - men don't just grab someone like that - there's more to this, etc, etc''. Apparently he is being questioned also about a case of indecent exposure - it would be interesting to know how long ago. How did he get Sarah into his car . . . apparently in his job he can carry a gun. Awful, I cannot take my mind away from it; and my son walks the dogs near where the ''human remains'' have been found.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

My first memory of violence against women to me personally was when I was 16, at a disco (yes, fake ID to get in). A man asked me to dance, I declined, he smashed his pint glass on the table and threatened me with it. Even now when I think of it over 30 years later, it makes my blood run cold. 

When we moved to London my (now) husband went mad at me as I walked home from the tube, got the last tube home. He said it wasn't safe. So I never did it again But it SHOULD have been safe - then it was proved it wasn't when there was a spate of attacks. A few years later, we lived up the road from the young woman Kate that got away from Levi Bellfield, I remember driving home from the hospital past the site of it. He murdered Milly, Amelie and Marsha close to where we lived. Violence is too close by. 

As I'm typing these messages, it just confirms for me that I need to go to a vigil. There isn't much else I can actively do.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

MollySmith said:


> So much in the news about him. I want to know about Sarah. Her hopes, dreams and what she was like. I don't care what his neighbour thought about the alleged murderer.
> 
> I'm so saddened to read so many accounts. I think every woman I know has something. I've had verbal abuse for no reason at all, followed home, my old flat broken into and an attempted rape, and mugged. And I realise that these have shaped me, I cycle at night or drive, I never walk unless it's my street. I despair.


Me neither, Molly, I don't care one JOT about him. I need no excuses or reasons as to what "drove him" to do it. I strongly feel that we shouldn't speak his name but we should absolutely speak about Sarah and use her name. The photo of her beaming with her running medal around her neck struck a particular chord with me as a runner. Oh Sarah. Such sadness.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2021)

Calvine said:


> It is more or less assumed to be her . . .I guess it must be, unless of course the guy is a serial killer and has dumped others there?


What is worrying is they are refering to what they have discovered as human remains and there is a huge police presence at the woods they found the human remains in and the police are still searching the woods. I am starting to read between the lines here and I am wondering if she was dismembered?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> My first memory of violence against women to me personally was when I was 16, at a disco (yes, fake ID to get in). A man asked me to dance, I declined, he smashed his pint glass on the table and threatened me with it. Even now when I think of it over 30 years later, it makes my blood run cold.
> 
> When we moved to London my (now) husband went mad at me as I walked home from the tube, got the last tube home. He said it wasn't safe. So I never did it again But it SHOULD have been safe - then it was proved it wasn't when there was a spate of attacks. A few years later, we lived up the road from the young woman Kate that got away from Levi Bellfield, I remember driving home from the hospital past the site of it. He murdered Milly, Amelie and Marsha close to where we lived. Violence is too close by.
> 
> As I'm typing these messages, it just confirms for me that I need to go to a vigil. There isn't much else I can actively do.


I am so sorry.

You know the more I think about it the more I've thought of other things I disregarded (and that's excluding my abusive ex). A man who try to buy me on a train from my dad, I was 15 at the time, if I had a quid for every time my tits where 'admired'...



Mrs Funkin said:


> Me neither, Molly, I don't care one JOT about him. I need no excuses or reasons as to what "drove him" to do it. I strongly feel that we shouldn't speak his name but we should absolutely speak about Sarah and use her name. The photo of her beaming with her running medal around her neck struck a particular chord with me as a runner. Oh Sarah. Such sadness.


Yes, that photo stuck with me too. Yes, speak her name. Create campaigns in her name... anything.

I'm going to see if we can do something in our city, even if it's just on our doorstep with a candle. Anything to show how prevalent this is. I'm also going to do all I can to tell men how they can make women feel safer.

hugs, we're all affected but I can feel the emotion in your words


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

The indecent exposure was 4 days before she went missing


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

So awful isn’t it  and the victim blaming. How many times do women get told ‘well you shouldn’t have been doing/wearing that’. 
Poor Sarah. It horrifies me thinking what she must have gone through


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rawpawsrus said:


> What is worrying is they are refering to what they have discovered as human remains and there is a huge police presence at the woods they found the human remains in and the police are still searching the woods. I am starting to read between the lines here and I am wondering if she was dismembered?


 I would have thought that by now she would surely have been identified. I recall when Holly and Jessica were found, they were partially burnt, but I'm sure they were identified quite quickly (though finding the two children's bodies together left little doubt in anyone's mind). You can't begin to imagine what is going through her family's minds; it must be like a living nightmare.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

I'm not sure about the vigils. There seems to be a lot of anti male sentiment in them and I'm not on board with that whatsoever.

Anti psychopath I'm fine with, but the man bashing is totally unfair.

JIMO


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

This is from the Guardian. I was wondering how long ago this was, and apparently the alleged indecent exposure incident was very recent, two weeks ago:

_PC Wayne Couzens has been arrested on suspicion of the kidnap and murder of Everard. He has also been arrested on suspicion of an indecent exposure involving another woman, and this is the incident that will be investigated by the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC).

The alleged indecent exposure happened on 28 February_, *at a fast food restaurant* _in south London._ (Crikey!)


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

I disagree with this Reclaim The Streets event, not all men are predators and prey on women and I agree with another poster that there seems to be alot of anti male sentiment.

There is a High Court ruling on it today as the protesters would be breaking the lockdown rules by gathering at Clapham Common. I cannot see the courts backing the protest as England is in a national lockdown and the law and rules still apply.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

MilleD said:


> I'm not sure about the vigils. There seems to be a lot of anti male sentiment in them and I'm not on board with that whatsoever.
> 
> Anti psychopath I'm fine with, but the man bashing is totally unfair.
> 
> JIMO


After reading that a Green Party peer has suggested that there should be a 6pm curfew for all men (+ other stuff) I was shocked & very alarmed at where we are going as a society.

As a man, the quote above has given me a little ray of hope!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Blackadder said:


> After reading that a Green Party peer has suggested that there should be a 6pm curfew for all men (+ other stuff) I was shocked & very alarmed at where we are going as a society.


Will there also be a curfew for all police officers after 6pm? Because it's just as ridiculous.



Blackadder said:


> As a man, the quote above has given me a little ray of hope!


I'm glad.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rawpawsrus said:


> I disagree with this Reclaim The Streets event, not all men are predators and prey on women and I agree with another poster that there seems to be alot of anti male sentiment.
> 
> There is a High Court ruling on it today as the protesters would be breaking the lockdown rules by gathering at Clapham Common. I cannot see the courts backing the protest as England is in a national lockdown and the law and rules still apply.


'Alot of anti-male sentiment' ... really? Considering so many women are murdered, raped, abused, tortured, kidnapped, imprisoned, harrassed, assaulted (the list really is endless!) I am surprised there isn't more tbh.

Personally I don't think it is anti male at all but more of a frustration that as women we are still subjected to fear & intimidation yet the police advise us as woman to stay inside rather than maybe informing men how not to be sexual predators or how to behave considerately around women especially in situations where they might feel more vulnerable. I think it was a post by @Douglas' Dad on another thread that I was so impressed by as he had been taught this by his mum (I think this is correct) as it should not always be put on women that they need to stay inside, not go out at night, etc.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I don’t think I’m anti man I have some great male figures in my life my stepdad being one of my favourite people. I know not all men are bad and do not want to see a 6pm curfew that’s ridiculous. 

But... it is a fact that the vast majority of domestic abuse the perpetrator is a man, it is a fact people have said this young women shouldn’t have been walking at night. Majority of sexual offences committed by men. I have been followed and intimidated by men thinking it’s funny I know the fear it strikes. I’ve been groped in bars. I have heard rape jokes, I have been told I shouldn’t trail run alone. 

Do we just accept this? Or do we try and change this? It comes from education in my opinion.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> 'Alot of anti-male sentiment' ... really? Considering so many women are murdered, raped, abused, tortured, kidnapped, imprisoned, harrassed, assaulted (the list really is endless!) I am surprised there isn't more tbh.
> 
> Personally I don't think it is anti male at all but more of a frustration that as women we are still subjected to fear & intimidation yet the police advise us as woman to stay inside rather than maybe informing men how not to be sexual predators or how to behave considerately around women especially in situations where they might feel more vulnerable. I think it was a post by @Douglas' Dad on another thread that I was so impressed by as he had been taught this by his mum (I think this is correct) as it should not always be put on women that they need to stay inside, not go out at night, etc.


You said it better than me.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Yes, I saw that last night about the curfew request and it was most alarming to me, too. 

The vigils have an “all welcome” stance - whether individual women think men should be there or not, the organisers are welcoming all. I can be convinced by both arguments - certainly in the women only demo days of Greenham Common (as a small girl there with my mum) and Reclaim the Night, men wouldn’t have even thought of asking to attend, it just was women only. 

Sarah, I wish we were not having this discussion following your death. I hope that your family and friends are being looked after.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> I don't think I'm anti man I have some great male figures in my life my stepdad being one of my favourite people. I know not all men are bad and do not want to see a 6pm curfew that's ridiculous.
> 
> But... it is a fact that the vast majority of domestic abuse the perpetrator is a man, it is a fact people have said this young women shouldn't have been walking at night. Majority of sexual offences committed by men. I have been followed and intimidated by men thinking it's funny I know the fear it strikes. I've been groped in bars. I have heard rape jokes, I have been told I shouldn't trail run alone.
> 
> Do we just accept this? Or do we try and change this? It comes from education in my opinion.


I was out on a run the other day, it was amazing. After a really sh*tty day I felt great to be out & about in the middle of the countryside. Until a van with two men in appeared & drove slowly behind me then alongside me trying to engage me in conversation. They then drove off then stopped & reversed & it started again.

I was really worrying as there was no one around, no house or anything but then they drove off. Then they came back ..... I then told them I couldn;t stop as my BF was 'live tracking' me & I didn;t want my time to be slow (the first thing I thought of) then they drove off & I didn't see them again.

Maybe they were just being d*cks or maybe there was something more sinister going on but I was f*cking furious. Luckily the anger (& fear probably!) helped get my pace up & I did my run in a great time. That's now sown that seed & each run I have had since has now been somehow tainted with this worry & I am raging about that


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I was out on a run the other day, it was amazing. After a really sh*tty day I felt great to be out & about in the middle of the countryside. Until a van with two men in appeared & drove slowly behind me then alongside me trying to engage me in conversation. They then drove off then stopped & reversed & it started again.
> 
> I was really worrying as there was no one around, no house or anything but then they drove off. Then they came back ..... I then told them I couldn;t stop as my BF was 'live tracking' me & I didn;t want my time to be slow (the first thing I thought of) then they drove off & I didn't see them again.
> 
> Maybe they were just being d*cks or maybe there was something more sinister going on but I was f*cking furious. Luckily the anger (& fear probably!) helped get my pace up & I did my run in a great time. That's now sown that seed & each run I have had since has now been somehow tainted with this worry & I am raging about that


This is the thing I think a lot of the time it's for a joke or laugh but the experience is enough to put some women off running it is terrifying all the what ifs. That was quick thinking about the live tracking glad your ok.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> This is the thing I think a lot of the time it's for a joke or laugh but the experience is enough to put some women off running it is terrifying all the what ifs. That was quick thinking about the live tracking glad your ok.


Exactly! It's lucky I had long sleeves or they could have seen I didn't have any fancy running watch. People have told me that I should take a phone out with me but alot of places where I run there isn't any signal .... & I just don't want a phone on me. The idea is to get away from everything & just run.

I am still so angry about it tbh which I channel in to speeding up my run but I don't want to feel angry. The point of running (for me) is to be at one with myself & the environment.


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## Dave S (May 31, 2010)

Saw the headline about the 6pm curfew for men and to be honest thought it was a joke, or the Green party is for women only.
Seriously?

There are far more good people out there of all sexes than bad but it only takes a one bad person to create mass hysteria, which sometimes is quite correct - Yorkshire Ripper, Cambridge Rapist, it made people more careful and aware.

BUT, to label all males as a potential threat? how absurd.

Reclaim the Streets would be better putting their efforts and energies into stopping knife crime and drug dealing. But that would be too easy I suppose. So lets victimise all men and ignore the ones with knives and drugs that may harm your children.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I was out on a run the other day, it was amazing. After a really sh*tty day I felt great to be out & about in the middle of the countryside. Until a van with two men in appeared & drove slowly behind me then alongside me trying to engage me in conversation. They then drove off then stopped & reversed & it started again.
> 
> I was really worrying as there was no one around, no house or anything but then they drove off. Then they came back ..... I then told them I couldn;t stop as my BF was 'live tracking' me & I didn;t want my time to be slow (the first thing I thought of) then they drove off & I didn't see them again.
> 
> Maybe they were just being d*cks or maybe there was something more sinister going on but I was f*cking furious. Luckily the anger (& fear probably!) helped get my pace up & I did my run in a great time. That's now sown that seed & each run I have had since has now been somehow tainted with this worry & I am raging about that


Did you report them?

All events like this need reporting otherwise they will just continue.

It amazes me, just how many women say that they have been rubbed up against on a crowded train or bus and haven't reacted. Is that through fear or embarrassment?

I've always dealt with issues head on, but then I've never felt in fear even though I've had my fair share of unwanted male attention.

I still think one of the issues is the way society is trying to deny the differences between the hormone driven sexes. If you push even placid peaceful males to feel guilty about being male, then you are asking for trouble, particularly in a testosterone fueled lads environment.

I'm certainly not saying that all men or even most men would behave badly, but there's a lot of men out there that behave in a way that's not conducive to co existing with women.

I hope this has come over how it's intended and not a slight on men or women. It's just I think the whole of society needs to be in on this discussion, not just from a woman's point of view. If men don't feel they can talk freely,then it just backs up my point


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I have an old school friend whose partner worked for the same police force who was sacked for stalking a colleague in 2018.

I met him on multiple occasions & always got an 'off' feeling about him, despite the fact he came across as a 'perfect' father & partner I was uncomfortable around him.

My daughter, who was about 14 when she visited them with me for their youngest's christening, admitted she felt the same.

When my friend was telling me about it she tried to claim his victim 'encouraged' him, it took a lot of effort not to react badly to that comment, but I feel she & her children are also victims, his actions tore apart a family.

Absolutely disgusting & inexcusable abuse of a position of power from both these men.



Cleo38 said:


> Exactly! It's lucky I had long sleeves or they could have seen I didn't have any fancy running watch. *People have told me that I should take a phone out with* me but alot of places where I run there isn't any signal .... & I just don't want a phone on me. The idea is to get away from everything & just run.
> 
> I am still so angry about it tbh which I channel in to speeding up my run but I don't want to feel angry. The point of running (for me) is to be at one with myself & the environment.


I get told this a lot, but like you, when I'm out I want to get away from people.

I've never been one for carrying a phone with me unless I'm planning on taking some of my (mostly rubbish) photos.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> Did you report them?
> 
> All events like this need reporting otherwise they will just continue.
> 
> ...


Yes, I did but as I didn't have a number plate the police weren't really interested. I did speak to a local farmer as I saw them initially parked by an excavator so thought they might be employees but they weren't, probably up to know good having a look around the excavator as there are lots of theft of farm plant round here.

I do think you have a point regarding speaking out. I do think that as women/girls we are expected to not make a fuss, be nice, etc much more so than boys & maybe this is part of it. I remember being on a crowded tube & being touched up by some perv & feeling mixed emotions of anger but also embarrassment that I would now have to draw attention to myself by shouting at the man. Am sure alot of predators know this & use this to get away with their crimes.

But regardless of differences between the sexes (& I agree there are many both genetics but also in how we are raised, society, etc) I do not think testosterone come sin to it at all. Hormones are very complex, there is some really interesting stuff by Robert Sarpolsky who discusses this & how hormones can differ greatly depending on context, etc & how they can influence our behaviour

Personally I think it's alot to do with entitlement; so many men feel they are entitled to comment on a woman, pass judgement, have a quick grope, etc but then I also think there are lot who are ignorant to how their actions are perceived by others.

I don't know but I just feel that we haven't really made much progress at times in ways of attitudes & how women are still being treated by some men.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rona said:


> If you push even placid peaceful males to feel guilty about being male, then you are asking for trouble, particularly in a testosterone fueled lads environment.


I'm in no way criticising you for the rest of what you're saying, but they aren't an alien species or a troop of baboons, surely the onus is on them to actually address their issues & work on self improvement, rather than seek affirmation in a slurry pit of toxic masculinity.

I'm with you on the confronting, I can remember at a rave having my bottom repeatedly touched by some random man, first incidence I gave a pass to, in a packed tent bodies can touch after, but he did it again, then again, so I turned round & bellowed in his face to get the duck away from me or I'd lamp him.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Even just walking the dog along the towpath, the number of times you get flashers thinking they'll brighten up your day is quite surprising. And sometimes they will accompany the display with an intelligent question such as, ''What do you think of this then?'' - ''Well, it looks like a penis only smaller'' is the obvious reply or ''Careful, the dog's hungry''.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> I'm in no way criticising you for the rest of what you're saying, but they aren't an alien species or a troop of baboons, surely the onus is on them to actually address their issues & work on self improvement, rather than seek affirmation in a slurry pit of toxic masculinity.
> 
> I'm with you on the confronting, I can remember at a rave having my bottom repeatedly touched by some random man, first incidence I gave a pass to, in a packed tent bodies can touch after, but he did it again, then again, so I turned round & bellowed in his face to get the duck away from me or I'd lamp him.


Funny you mention baboons as Robert Sapolsky mentions a study in a book I read whereby the high ranking aggressive males were killed off by eating meat contaminated by bovine TB & the troop then stabilized more over the years. Despite the young males remaining in the group all having the genes from the high ranking males (as they were the only ones allowed to breed with the females) the youngsters were alot less aggressive, more co-operative, less bullying, etc They were unsure exactly why this had happened but suspected it has to do with the young males observing the less aggressive, friendly attitude of the female baboons so having 'nicer' role models which then actually benefited the group as whole.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I find the whole 'smash the patriarchy', 'ban all men' etc narrative quite unhelpful and it usually comes from fair weather pseudo feminists anyway but women are allowed to be angry. If the idea of an official curfew for men bothers you, what about the unofficial curfew women have been expected to abide by since forever? 'She shouldn't have been out at that time' usually comes from the same people who are all 'oh the poor men being vilified like this' when they're the ones tacitly acknowledging that it's not safe for women at night and why is that? Oh right, male violence against women.

I walk at night all the time. I take precautions and make my own 'risk assessments' because that's life. I have been followed, I have been flashed. I have been sexually assaulted although not by a stranger in the streets. 'Not all men' isn't a belief women can afford to adhere to when it counts.



Dave S said:


> Saw the headline about the 6pm curfew for men and to be honest thought it was a joke, or *the Green party is for women only.*


Nah, the Green Party divide people into the categories of men and 'non-men'. It's progressive apparently.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> If the idea of an official curfew for men bothers you, what about the unofficial curfew women have been expected to abide by since forever? 'She shouldn't have been out at that time' usually comes from the same people who are all 'oh the poor men being vilified like this' when they're the ones tacitly acknowledging that it's not safe for women at night and why is that? Oh right, male violence against women.
> .


THIS!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I'm in no way criticising you for the rest of what you're saying, but they aren't an alien species or a troop of baboons, surely the onus is on them to actually address their issues & work on self improvement, rather than seek affirmation in a slurry pit of toxic masculinity.


But when a perfectly nice, peaceful man like my OH is made to feel guilty for what others are doing, just because he is male, then something is wrong with the whole message being put out to men.

He lives in fear too


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

This literally just came up on my Facebook timeline:


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

rona said:


> But when a perfectly nice, peaceful man like my OH is made to feel guilty for what others are doing, just because he is male, then something is wrong with the whole message being put out to men.
> 
> He lives in fear too


Quite. It's like only women come to harm ever.

And for people saying that women should be able to walk on their own in the middle of night. I agree.

_Everyone _should be able to, but the world isn't like that, there will ALWAYS be psychopaths out there. Not men. Psychopaths.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Blackadder said:


> After reading that a Green Party peer has suggested that there should be a 6pm curfew for all men


I assumed this was a joke? Most men surely don't even get home from work before six o'clock. So there will be no evening buses or trains, no policemen? Am I missing something? I know the Green Party reputedly has more than its fair share of what David Cameron described as ''loonies and fruitcakes'' but even so . . .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> Quite. It's like only women come to harm ever.
> 
> And for people saying that women should be able to walk on their own in the middle of night. I agree.
> 
> _Everyone _should be able to, but the world isn't like that, there will ALWAYS be psychopaths out there. Not men. Psychopaths.


Yes they should, of course. But you don't get men being told (if they have been attacked) that they shouldn't be out on their own, they should have shouted for help, they shouldn't have worn revealing clothes, they shouldn't have engaged in conversation with the offender, they shouldn't have been drinking, etc

But women are targetted purely because they women. For me this is a hate crime although I've never why it isn't considered one


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

I take all the above comments on board.


Calvine said:


> I assumed this was a joke? Most men surely don't even get home from work before six o'clock. So there will be no evening buses or trains, no policemen? Am I missing something? I know the Green Party reputedly has more than its fair share of what David Cameron described as ''loonies and fruitcakes'' but even so . . .







"Discrimination of all kinds would be lessened" by discriminating against men!!!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rona said:


> But when a perfectly nice, peaceful man like my OH is made to feel guilty for what others are doing, just because he is male, then something is wrong with the whole message being put out to men.
> 
> He lives in fear too


Or perhaps many of them are misinterpreting the message?

I do feel for the peacable men, but why would any of them feel guilt if they haven't engaged in activities harming women & it's not referring to them personally?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Quite. It's like only women come to harm ever.
> 
> And for people saying that women should be able to walk on their own in the middle of night. I agree.
> 
> _Everyone _should be able to, but the world isn't like that, there will ALWAYS be psychopaths out there. Not men. Psychopaths.





Cleo38 said:


> Yes they should, of course. But you don't get men being told (if they have been attacked) that they shouldn't be out on their own, they should have shouted for help, they shouldn't have worn revealing clothes, they shouldn't have engaged in conversation with the offender, they shouldn't have been drinking, etc
> 
> But women are targetted purely because they women. For me this is a hate crime although I've never why it isn't considered one


I think you misunderstood. He lives in fear of women, and children come to that.

For instance........a young girl claimed to have been raped on one of our regular walks, he sometimes goes there on his own and wears the type of hat the attacker was supposed to have worn. He was terrified to go back there. As it turned out she had never been attacked, but that's another issue
He's scared if a child talks to him and being in a remote spot with a lone female makes him feel very uncomfortable.
It's not men per-say that have made him feel this way. It's the dregs of society and the way a lot of women react to any man in "situations"

You must see what this is doing to normal good men too?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

As the saying goes, 'Men are afraid women will laugh at them*.Women are afraid men will kill them'

*or in this context accuse them of something, apparently

It does seem a bit much to me @rona that we are told we're being silly and misandrist when we react to attacks against women and girls that are so commonplace they rarely even make the news but the idea that men like your partner are actually _living in fear_ of women and children can be said with a straight face.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

picaresque said:


> As the saying goes, 'Men are afraid women will laugh at them*.Women are afraid men will kill them'
> 
> *or in this context accuse them of something, apparently
> 
> It does seem a bit much to me @rona that we are told we're being silly and misandrist when we react to attacks against women and girls that are so commonplace they rarely even make the news but the idea that men like your partner are actually _living in fear_ of women and children can be said with a straight face.


See it's this attitude that could be adding to the problem


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

picaresque said:


> As the saying goes, 'Men are afraid women will laugh at them*.Women are afraid men will kill them'
> 
> *or in this context accuse them of something, apparently
> 
> It does seem a bit much to me @rona that we are told we're being silly and misandrist when we react to attacks against women and girls that are so commonplace they rarely even make the news but the idea that men like your partner are actually _living in fear_ of women and children can be said with a straight face.


That's a bit off. No-one else's perspective on how they feel is any less value.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> See it's this attitude that could be adding to the problem


I understand what you possibly mean. I know two people who have been accused of sexual crimes that were innocent (a man & a woman) so can understand there is a degree of worry in certain situations but it is not the same as being in fear of another sex....

I doubt if your OH had been me out running & a car with a couple of women drove past then stopped he would have been worried he could be seriously attacked & would be powerless to defend himself. It is also very unlikely that a man would be attacked by women but very real for women to be attacked by men.

It is also unlikely that a man would even bother worrying if a car suddenly stopped up ahead.

I have not had this worry for a while as I'm never really in situations where there are other people around & if I do meet someone dodgy when out I have my dogs with me. This recent incident has affected me, not to make me scared but to make me angry that I now I have to have this worry again


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I understand what you possibly mean. I know two people who have been accused of sexual crimes that were innocent (a man & a woman) so can understand there is a degree of worry in certain situations but it is not the same as being in fear of another sex....
> 
> I doubt if your OH had been me out running & a car with a couple of women drove past then stopped he would have been worried he could be seriously attacked & would be powerless to defend himself. It is also very unlikely that a man would be attacked by women but very real for women to be attacked by men.
> 
> ...


Of course no woman should have to worry, but this suppression of decent honest men, punishes the good while doing nothing to hinder the bad. In fact I believe it can inflame the problem by causing resentment in those that are of that mind set

I have no answers but can see a different angle


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> Of course no woman should have to worry, but this suppression of decent honest men, punishes the good while doing nothing to hinder the bad. In fact I believe it can inflame the problem by causing resentment in those that are of that mind set
> 
> I have no answers but can see a different angle


I don't think there is a 'suppression' of men tho, more of an international suppression of women that is still seen as acceptable. I honestly feel despair when I read statistics of violence endured by women, pathetic sentences given to abusers, women still victim shamed by the courts & media, sexual harassment, etc & when women complain or protest we are seen as 'man haters' ...... I honestly don't get it when it's obviously men who hate women otherwise why would they kill/abuse us?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

rona said:


> Of course no woman should have to worry, but this suppression of decent honest men, punishes the good while doing nothing to hinder the bad. In fact I believe it can inflame the problem by causing resentment in those that are of that mind set
> 
> I have no answers but can see a different angle


How are we suppressing men by raising awareness of the violence women face ? Do we not fight for change do we tell todays female youth; you will be catcalled, groped and followed it's just life. Or do we look at education and try and make a change ?


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

The remains have been confirmed to be Sarah .

If this monster is charged with her murder I think he should be shot. Maybe I shouldn’t say that, but why should he be able to carry on living


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

willa said:


> The remains have been confirmed to be Sarah .
> 
> If this monster is charged with her murder I think he should be shot. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but why should he be able to carry on living


Ex cop, woman killer? He deserves his life in prison where I'm sure he'll be very popular (no doubt measures will be taken to protect him but even so)


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

willa said:


> The remains have been confirmed to be Sarah .
> 
> If this monster is charged with her murder I think he should be shot. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but why should he be able to carry on living


I imagine prison for a former police officer, will be like hell on earth.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Boxer123 said:


> How are we suppressing men by raising awareness of the violence women face ? Do we not fight for change do we tell todays female youth; you will be catcalled, groped and followed it's just life. Or do we look at education and try and make a change ?


I'm not entirely sure education is the key. Perhaps there are parts of society where we need to teach that women are of equal value.

People know it's wrong to murder and abuse, but they still do it.

Perhaps more of a focus on mental health might make a difference.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think there is a 'suppression' of men tho, more of an international suppression of women that is still seen as acceptable. I honestly feel despair when I read statistics of violence endured by women, pathetic sentences given to abusers, women still victim shamed by the courts & media, sexual harassment, etc & when women complain or protest we are seen as 'man haters' ...... I honestly don't get it when it's obviously men who hate women otherwise why would they kill/abuse us?


exactly. I find it a bit ridiculous that you can't have a conversation about how women are sexually harassed, assaulted, raped and murdered by men without it turning into a 'but it's not all men'. Almost trying to diminish what happens to women because it's not every man. Of course it's not every man but the fact women are told to not walk alone after dark, not go to that place, don't wear that, don't use headphones etc etc and men are never told these things is not right.

i remember when I was in school and all the girls in our year group had to go watch a video about keeping ourselves safe and, when we started to go out, never leave a drink unattended and cover the top of your bottles. There was a story about how lads would take the date rape drug on a balcony and (try) throw it in woman's drinks for a laugh. What??? But the boys didn't have to go watch a video about anything. The victim blaming really gets to me.

I think it is about education. It's about teaching men that women should be respected right from the start. Our society almost does teach that women are less powerful, less able, weaker than men and I think a lot of this stems from that. The fact people think it's ok to cat call and make comments to women in the street and make them feel uncomfortable. And that it's ok to be grabbed at and harassed and that we should be thankful for the attention (thinking of when I used to go to clubs!). All alludes to the fact men have some power over us.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think there is a 'suppression' of men tho,





Boxer123 said:


> How are we suppressing men by raising awareness of the violence women face ? Do we not fight for change do we tell todays female youth; you will be catcalled, groped and followed it's just life. Or do we look at education and try and make a change ?





Teddy-dog said:


> I find it a bit ridiculous that you can't have a conversation about how women are sexually harassed, assaulted, raped and murdered by men without it turning into a 'but it's not all men'.


I'm sorry, but this is part of the problem.

Emasculation

I will never make you understand.I' ll leave it here because that poor woman is dead


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> I'm sorry, but this is part of the problem.


Just wow!!! I honestly am lost for words of how speaking up against suppression of women, violent crime, murder, sexual assault which still happens all over the world is 'part of the problem'


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> Just wow!!! I honestly am lost for words of how speaking up against suppression of women, violent crime, murder, sexual assault which still happens all over the world is 'part of the problem'


You really are putting words in people's mouths a bit.

I thought we were talking about the UK? Or are you talking about ridding the world of any religion/culture around the globe that sees women as inferior?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> You really are putting words in people's mouths a bit.
> 
> I thought we were talking about the UK? Or are you talking about ridding the world of any religion/culture around the globe that sees women as inferior?


How can I be putting words in people's mouths? I am shocked that certain people see men as being suppressed because women are highlighting inequalities. How can that be emasculating?

I am talking about suppression of women which happens all over the world as well as the UK regardless of religion .... not sure I understand your point


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I do think you have a point regarding speaking out. I do think that as women/girls we are expected to not make a fuss, be nice, etc much more so than boys & maybe this is part of it. I remember being on a crowded tube & being touched up by some perv & feeling mixed emotions of anger but also embarrassment that I would now have to draw attention to myself by shouting at the man. Am sure alot of predators know this & use this to get away with their crimes.





simplysardonic said:


> I'm with you on the confronting, I can remember at a rave having my bottom repeatedly touched by some random man, first incidence I gave a pass to, in a packed tent bodies can touch after, but he did it again, then again, so I turned round & bellowed in his face to get the duck away from me or I'd lamp him.


It's complex isn't it? 
I think society in general - men and women contribute to this idea that women shouldn't say anything. 
I myself was well taught as a 14 year old in school. We were out on the patio during a break between classes and a boy walked up to me while I was talking to my friends and grabbed my butt cheek, big old handful and then went off laughing to his friends. I wheeled around and asked him what the fluck did he think he was doing and kept walking towards him asking him what on earth made him think that was okay? 
My friends pulled me aside and told me to calm down and the very clear message I got was that *I* was in the wrong for overreacting. Makes me think of dogs labeled reactive or worse punished for having a normal reaction to a dog invading their space 



simplysardonic said:


> I do feel for the peacable men, but why would any of them feel guilt if they haven't engaged in activities harming women & it's not referring to them personally?


My OH doesn't. I remember when the "me too" movement gathered strength OH commenting that he was so glad to see the pervs finally getting their comeuppance. There are decent men out there glad to see positive change.

Yes, men are falsely accused and that's horrible and absolutely needs to be addressed. 
But to bring that up when discussing the very real issue of assault on women and our society who allows and perpetuates it feels like a lot of whataboutism and dismissive of the issue of how women are treated.

I have a son and a daughter. Same age. They have both been taught to be compassionate and respectful to people no matter the age, gender, ability, etc. 
It has been interesting to watch them grow up and society's 'norms' around what a boy child and girl child should do. 
I think we have come a good ways even from the days of me being told off for objecting to having my ass grabbed, but we still have a ways to go.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> How can I be putting words in people's mouths? I am shocked that certain people see men as being suppressed because women are highlighting inequalities. How can that be emasculating?
> 
> I am talking about suppression of women which happens all over the world as well as the UK regardless of religion .... not sure I understand your point


I think you are seeing 'suppression' of men in a different sense to what has been said.

But I would really hate to be a man reading some of the stuff on social media at the moment. And no, that wouldn't make me guilty of collusion as you seem to see it.

We are talking about the UK. That was my point.

This is my last post on this, I feel that certain people don't feel that there is more than one facet to all this. And nothing anyone says will convince them there is.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> I think you are seeing 'suppression' of men in a different sense to what has been said.
> 
> But I would really hate to be a man reading some of the stuff on social media at the moment. And no, that wouldn't make me guilty of collusion as you seem to see it.
> 
> ...


Then I have no idea what is meant by your idea of 'suppression' of men then

Again I am surprised that you think men are having a hard time on social media considering that yet again this is an area where women seem to be targeted more savagely than men.

Remember the abuse Mary Beard received simply for suggesting Jane Austen should be portrayed on a bank note, or JK Rowling after she recently posted about being a woman, or female MP's .... again there are endless lists of women being threatened with rape or other forms of violence simply for voicing an opinion.

Of course there is more than one facet to sexism, no one has suggested otherwise


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

The High Court has ruled that the vigil cannot go ahead tomorrow on Clapham Common by Reclaim The Streets. Makes sense as we are still in a lockdown in England.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rawpawsrus said:


> Makes sense as we are still in a lockdown in England


Had no-one thought of that before?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

So what's the difference between this vigil & all the anti lockdown/vaccination protests that went ahead?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, but if the gammonistas were allowed to be out in force unmolested I don't see the difference.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

In his ruling, Mr Justice Holgate said the organisers had been told by police that the vigil "would be illegal" and that their "hands were tied" by COVID regulations.

The four claimants had also been warned they could be issued with £10,000 fixed penalty notices and might be arrested, the judge added.

He refused an application for "an interim declaration" that any ban on outdoor gatherings, under coronavirus regulations, is "subject to the right to protest".

He also refused to declare that an alleged policy by the Met of "prohibiting all protests, irrespective of the specific circumstances", is unlawful.

The judge ruled that "the requirements of the law have been clearly stated" in previous court rulings, including a challenge to COVID-19 lockdown rules brought by businessman Simon Dolan, which was dismissed by the Court of Appeal in December.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

Cleo38 said:


> ' Considering so many women are murdered, raped, abused, tortured, kidnapped, imprisoned, harrassed, assaulted (the list really is endless!)


How many men are beaten by their partners each year? How many men are killed by their partners?
I understand this poor woman was killed at the hands of a male police officer but the crimes committed against men from their partners seems to not get reported. I am not making this up men do get assaulted, abused, raped, kidnapped and killed by their partners as well. When I say partners I mean female and male. Not all men are rapists, predators, killers, kidnappers, prey on women etc. There is alot of decent men out there.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

rawpawsrus said:


> How many men are killed by their partners?


You tell me, @rawpawsrus
It's very ****ing few for sure. A woman is murdered by a man every three days in this country. That's actually increased since lockdown.

Do you care about male victims of violence all the time or only when it's the plight of women being discussed? Maybe you could start an awareness campaign, raise funds for a helpline or shelter for men? No?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

picaresque said:


> You tell me, @rawpawsrus
> It's very ******* few for sure. A woman is murdered by a man every three days in this country. That's actually increased since lockdown.
> 
> Do you care about male victims of violence all the time or only when it's the plight of women being discussed? Maybe you could start an awareness campaign, raise funds for a helpline or shelter for men? No?


576,000 men (2.5% men) in 2020.

The point is men get abused as well. Women are not the only victims in domestic abuse etc.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

rawpawsrus said:


> How many men are beaten by their partners each year? How many men are killed by their partners?
> I understand this poor woman was killed at the hands of a male police officer but the crimes committed against men from their partners seems to not get reported. I am not making this up men do get assaulted, abused, raped, kidnapped and killed by their partners as well. When I say partners I mean female and male. Not all men are rapists, predators, killers, kidnappers, prey on women etc. There is alot of decent men out there.


Why is it when we're talking about the plight of women do we have to bring up men being abused? It's like trying to diminish what happens to women because it happens to some men too. Yes it's bad men get abused but we should be able to talk about the harassment of women without this being brought up. Yes, care about it as a separate issue but, attention needs to be brought the the plight of women.

Do you think about how many women also don't report abuse because they feel they'll be told they're making it up or feel like they won't be heard? The fact is many many more women get abused by their partners/men then men do. And that's wrong. Women are told to do certain things to keep themselves safe. Men don't get told these things as they can do what they like and feel safe. This a problem.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

Teddy-dog said:


> Why is it when we're talking about the plight of women do we have to bring up men being abused? It's like trying to diminish what happens to women because it happens to some men too. Yes it's bad men get abused but we should be able to talk about the harassment of women without this being brought up. Yes, care about it as a separate issue but, attention needs to be brought the the plight of women.
> 
> Do you think about how many women also don't report abuse because they feel they'll be told they're making it up or feel like they won't be heard? The fact is many many more women get abused by their partners/men then men do. And that's wrong. Women are told to do certain things to keep themselves safe. Men don't get told these things as they can do what they like and feel safe. This a problem.


Well the whole point of Reclaim The Streets seems to be to diminish men. Its very sexist. Men get abused to. I was just trying to highlight that point. Men don't feel safe as well. Just a point. Not trying to cause an arguement. Abuse crosses both sexes (Men and Women).


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.mankind.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/35-Key-Facts-Male-Victims-March-2018.pdf

Of all people suffering domestic abuse 2/3rds are women 1/3rd men.

This isn't the point I was making though. It's not men versus women and shouldn't be women versus men...............that whole scenario isn't helping at all.
There needs to be a calm adult approach to this, not knee jerk reactions


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rawpawsrus said:


> 576,000 men (2.5% men) in 2020.
> 
> The point is men get abused as well. Women are not the only victims in domestic abuse etc.


Men are mainly killed, abused, assaulted by other men.

Domestic violence victims are mainly women, the assailants are mainly male.

Am not sure what your point is tbh


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

Cleo38 said:


> Men are mainly killed, abused, assaulted by other men.
> 
> Domestic violence victims are mainly women, the assailants are mainly male.
> 
> Am not sure what your point is tbh


My point is this happens to men as well not just women.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

rawpawsrus said:


> Well the whole point of Reclaim The Streets seems to be to diminish men. Its very sexist. Men get abused to. I was just trying to highlight that point. Men don't feel safe as well. Just a point. Not trying to cause an arguement. Abuse crosses both sexes (Men and Women).


It's not to diminish men. It's to raise awareness of what women go through. Everyone knows men get abused too but the fact that women are much more likely to be abused (almost 1 in 3 women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime) and repeatly abused is something that needs to be addressed.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rawpawsrus said:


> My point is this happens to men as well not just women.


By other men mainly .... again I dont understand why you are stressing this in a thread concerned with violence against women.

Do you also stress to people who cite incidents of racism that it's not always against people of colour or to disabled people that face discrimination that able bodied people also endure this?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

Sorry for raising a real point and ruining the flow of conversation. I'll bail out here.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rawpawsrus said:


> Sorry for raising a real point and ruining the flow of conversation. I'll bail out here.


But it's not a 'real point' thats the problem


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/violence-against-women-and-girls-vawg-call-for-evidence


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2021)

Cleo38 said:


> But it's not a 'real point' thats the problem



Your views are one sided so there is no point continuing this conversation.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rawpawsrus said:


> 576,000 men (2.5% men) in 2020.
> 
> The point is men get abused as well. Women are not the only victims in domestic abuse etc.


Aren't we discussing Sarah? I was in an abusive relationship and I have done a lot of work with charities. I know of these men, but it's a digression (for the want of another word) to a degree as we were - I thought - discussing the safety of women. The way we've all adopted a behaviour of hiding away, of triple locking doors and looking around us.

I don't know what point you are trying to make?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rawpawsrus said:


> Your views are one sided so there is no point continuing this conversation.


Hahaha, of course because everone knows there is no evidence of misogyny, violence against women, rape, murder, sexual assault, trafficking, discrimination, pay discrimination whatsoever


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rawpawsrus said:


> How many men are beaten by their partners each year? How many men are killed by their partners?
> I understand this poor woman was killed at the hands of a male police officer but the crimes committed against men from their partners seems to not get reported. I am not making this up men do get assaulted, abused, raped, kidnapped and killed by their partners as well. When I say partners I mean female and male. Not all men are rapists, predators, killers, kidnappers, prey on women etc. There is alot of decent men out there.


there are a lot of decent men who recognise the problem more than a few of you in this thread!

I'm reading all this injection as suppression. I could read all these claims of 'emasculation' as a protest, against every woman who has an account - me included I guess - and spoken out. Are we all raging harpies trying to claim _all_ men are potential attackers, poised to grab our tits, call us crumpet and escalate to murder? Not that I have seen. Us women who have, in our right to say f**k this I want to feel safe, are forgetting about good men? That the men, like my husband, who has intervened are emasculated by our words? He's far from that, he, and every man who says, what can I do, are - like the women who speak out - brave, courageous and stronger for the conversation.

Please stop closing the dialogue down.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> Not that I have seen. Us women who have, in our right to say f**k this I want to feel safe, are forgetting about good men?


Missed my point by a mile 



MollySmith said:


> Please stop closing the dialogue down.


Like you are doing?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rona said:


> Missed my point by a mile
> 
> Like you are doing?


I was replying to @rawpawsrus  so I'm bemused as to how I can miss your point? If so, damm I'm good. And nope, not closing it down but attempting to understand _their_ point. What was yours?

Jesus this thread, it's everyone shouting when ultimately and sadly a woman has been murdered and we're arguing about women saying they feel unsafe. It's hugely ironic if it wasn't so damm tragic :Banghead


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rawpawsrus said:


> My point is this happens to men as well not just women.


I think sometimes it helps to put these things in to less emotive analogies.

If as a runner I say that I was attacked by a dog, and that it is actually fairly common for runners to be chased, barked at, intimidated, and even attacked by loose dogs and perhaps we need to look in to how we as a society address this issue of folks out exercising being attacked by dogs.

You don't come back with "well dogs get attacked too" or "not all dogs attack" 
Of course not all dogs attack. And many runners will be dog lovers who own dogs themselves. It's not about hating dogs. 
And yes, dogs do get attacked. Often by other dogs actually. Sometimes a runner will carry mace or a weapon and wield it against a dog. Some people abuse dogs. None of that is okay.

We can talk about dogs being attacked and abused too, of course, but *this* conversation is about runners and walkers and hikers, and their right to go about their business without being accosted or blamed for being accosted.

Here's the thing. We're just recently coming out of the darkness when it comes to assault on women. We're barely out of banishing violated women as spoiled goods. That's a lot of cultural indoctrination to overcome. 
Asking for women to be honored and respected as human beings doesn't diminish the honor and respect men already have.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I think sometimes it helps to put these things in to less emotive analogies.
> 
> If as a runner I say that I was attacked by a dog, and that it is actually fairly common for runners to be chased, barked at, intimidated, and even attacked by loose dogs and perhaps we need to look in to how we as a society address this issue of folks out exercising being attacked by dogs.
> 
> ...


thank you for writing with far more eloquence than I can muster.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> there are a lot of decent men who recognise the problem more than a few of you in this thread!
> 
> I'm reading all this injection as suppression. I could read all these claims of 'emasculation' as a protest, against *every woman who has an account *- me included I guess - and spoken out. Are we all raging harpies trying to claim _all_ men are potential attackers, poised to grab our tits, call us crumpet and escalate to murder? Not that I have seen. Us women who have, in our right to say f**k this I want to feel safe, are forgetting about good men? That the men, like my husband, who has intervened are emasculated by our words? He's far from that, he, and every man who says, what can I do, are - like the women who speak out - brave, courageous and stronger for the conversation.
> 
> Please stop closing the dialogue down.


And unfortunately many have lists. I would not class myself as unusual or yet I have many incidents where I have felt very threatened & in fear of my safety the latest incidnt only serving as a reminder & it has made me angry. Does that make me anti-men? Of course not, I really am struggling to understand why some are choosing to take this view point


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> And unfortunately many have lists. I would not class myself as unusual or yet I have many incidents where I have felt very threatened & in fear of my safety the latest incidnt only serving as a reminder & it has made me angry. Does that make me anti-men? of course not, I really am struggling ti


Agree, I hope you're okay?

****
I'm going to put this here publicly to say I've asked the mods to read through this thread.

I'm concerned that there is such a strong feeling here and our mental health, I have lists of transgressions but I'm so very fortunate to be married to a man who saved me from some of the fallout of an abusive relationship. I have more men in my friendship groups and without question they would do all they could to keep me safe. But reading some of the stuff here is alarming and I hope those who also have a list are okay. It's hugely emotional everywhere- the news, the lockdown, life in general.

Let's take a minute to learn from each other and pause. @rona and @rawpawsrus i suggest we beg to differ or at least accept misunderstandings. If anything, the events that have lead to this post must surely make us realise that life is too damm short.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Well, tomorrow I shall be running near the planned place of vigil closest to me and placing something down (I'm not sure what as yet) at a designated time. 

I shall run in memory of Sarah. I shall run in memory of all the women who have lost their lives who should have been safe and ultimately were not safe. I am going alone. My husband has not asked to come with me - he knows that, for me, it's a woman only thing. 

I'm really angry about this. Sarah was just walking home. She was just walking home and should have been safe and wasn't.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> Agree, I hope you're okay?
> 
> ****
> I'm going to put this here publicly to say I've asked the mods to read through this thread.
> ...


I'm fine, I'm more angry & that's where I think the problem is. Women are allowed or expected to feel scared but not angry. It seems we don't like or tolerate angry women


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I'm fine, I'm more angry & that's where I think the problem is. Women are allowed or expected to feel scared but not angry. It seems we don't like or tolerate angry women


We must always be meek and kind and think of everyone else before ourselves


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm going to close this for (at least) the time being, it's affecting some of the members' mental health, raising a considerable amount of whataboutery, gone way off topic & there have been reports.

It may or may not be reopened but as I think I'm currently the only mod online & I really need to go to bed I'm making the decision for the time being.


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