# Action!!!!!



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I was woken at 9am on the dot this morning by Socks meowing rather loudly!
I checked her bottom and sure enough she was looking damp.

She is fine but goes in the litter tray all the time poor soul doesn't know what's happening to her!

She has had her show, does this ooze out for a while?

I've seen one or two contractions but nothing too 'heavy'.

Kittens today do you think?


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## sue100 (Jan 20, 2010)

good luck to you both


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## tylow (Feb 11, 2009)

Fingers crossed for an easy delivery and safe arrival of wee snow babies


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## cathy2202 (Oct 19, 2010)

Hiya

Good luck to you!

My girl is on day 62 today.

Did yours stop eating prior to this morning?


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

How exciting, not long!! Bibi was the same, started at around 9am and the first kitten was born an hour or so later.....if I remember correctly, there was about 4 hours between the first and the last kitten. (Bibi didn't have a noticeable show before the birth though)

Good luck


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

hi, dont know about cat breeding only dogs but if she is having little contractions then kittens must be on their way very soon good luck


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Oooh yes sounds as though things are happening.
Hope all is going well :thumbup:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

all my first timers go in the loo as they think they need the loo, sounds as thought she has started  keep us updated!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

cathy2202 said:


> Hiya
> 
> Good luck to you!
> 
> ...


only 1 of mine stopped eating 2days before, ate very little, the other ate right up until and after the birth!!!!


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Hiya,

She's still not having many contractions. I've given her caulophyllum but nothing seems to have changed.

She can't reach to clean herself so i need to keep wiping her with tissues.

She didn't stop eating at any point and is still eating today. If i opened some food she would cry to get some.

There really has been no signs at all apart from crying in my face at 9 this morning!!

today is day 67 for my girl.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Hopefully things will start to happen soon, if not a trip to your vet may be in order as sometimes oxytocin may need to be given to help with the contractions.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

She has a few meows then settles down to sleep again. The discharge seems to have stopped now.

I'll see how she goes this evening.

I think it can be up to 24 hours after the show that things start happening so i'm not worried, she's in no distress.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Hope there's more progress soon


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

She is now having contractions every 5ish minutes!!


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Eeeee this is so exciting!!!


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

yeah i am very excited!!

can't wait to meet my kitties!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

hope it goes well and all are born healthy x


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

When you say 'contractions' what do you mean? Describe what she is doing.

Also why would you wipe her with tissue? I'd never do that... think of infection


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I mean she is contracting. Having given birth twice myself i know what they are! Only a few every 5-10 minutes though.

Her tummy is so large that she is unable to lick herself so instead of leaving her fur covered in liquid and blood i've been dabbing her with tissues. I don't see any problem with that.

Nothing much is happening at the moment she's lying around resting.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> Nothing much is happening at the moment she's lying around resting.


I hope you're getting some rest too while your girl is resting


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> I mean she is contracting. Having given birth twice myself i know what they are! Only a few every 5-10 minutes though.


please don't take this the wrong way... my mum had 5 of us, and delivered next doors twins on her own and has been at the birth of countless of my nephews and neices and cousins, even helped my sister deliver her first born when the ambulance got stuck in the snow and the 2 ambulance drivers panicked ... still though when I was 14 she made the wrong call with a pregnant foster cat of ours... I knew a good long while before my mum that all was not well and we had to get to a vet.... all I mean to say is.... I know you're a mum, but.... I am not sure that is that relevant with cat birthing. It certainly wasn't for my mum.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> I mean she is contracting. Having given birth twice myself i know what they are! Only a few every 5-10 minutes though.
> 
> Her tummy is so large that she is unable to lick herself so instead of leaving her fur covered in liquid and blood i've been dabbing her with tissues. I don't see any problem with that.
> 
> Nothing much is happening at the moment she's lying around resting.


OK, but if she is lifting her bum with them that's not just contractions, she is pushing too.

So what are you going to do once she's given birth? Clean her? I'm sorry but I don't see any reason to wipe with tissue, it is risky doing it IMO. You already have so much riding against you, taking unnecessary risks like that ... well .

Can you link me up to an article you've read (I presume?) that tells you up to 24 hours after a show is fine? and what to you call a show, what happened?


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

She hasn't lifted her bum at all, just lying on her side, sometimes changing to her other side.

Once she has given birth there will be no need to clean her as she will be able to reach to do it herself.

I phoned my friend this morning who is a vet and se said that 24 hours isn't abnormal. The stud owner also said not to worry as maiden queens can take their time.

I know what to look for, and when to call the vet.

Some people on here are FAR too cautious and really quite rude, bearing in mind they are not actually there where the action is happening. How can you give advice when you haven't seen the queen?

I trust the experience i have, and my instincts and feel i know what i'm doing well enough to know when she needs intervention.

The show is the brownish pink mucus that comes away at the first onset of labour.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I havent seen anyone be rude, all they are doing is giving advice. If you dont want that then why post? its not being rude.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I am very tired and of course anxious because she's a maiden queen.

I'm sorry if i've taken something the wrong way.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> She hasn't lifted her bum at all, just lying on her side, sometimes changing to her other side.
> 
> Once she has given birth there will be no need to clean her as she will be able to reach to do it herself.
> 
> ...


if that was aimed at me... fine, but why?!

What I said was perfectly true, my mother is far more experienced in child birth than most women, I still (as a 14 yr old school girl) spotted the warning signs far earlier than she did with a pregnant rescue. I am not saying and did not say at any point that anything is untoward with your cat ... I just warned against the "I have given birth twice myself, so I know" train of thought.

When you ask for help on an internet forum you sometimes get opinions you'd rather not hear, that is simply (and will always remain) the nature of the beast.

Best of luck with your cat.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

alisondalziel said:


> I am very tired and of course anxious because she's a maiden queen.
> 
> I'm sorry if i've taken something the wrong way.


I really hope things go well for you, hopefully she will have them soon.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Great news Alison, hope all goes well for you and you have a lovely bouncing litter 

I agree with trusting your instinct with your girl, it has always worked well for me to do this with my own cats alongside veterinary advice.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

first kitten born at 10:33pm. 
a red male 

when should i attempt to feed him?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

alisondalziel said:


> first kitten born at 10:33pm.
> a red male
> 
> when should i attempt to feed him?


after the mum has delivered them all or rests she should let him feed.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm hand feeding for the first 24 hours.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Congrats! :thumbup:

Well, with Bibi's litter her milk didn't come in until 6 hours after the first kitten was born (two very experienced breeders assured me the kittens suckling would bring it in and they were right), so you have a little time to see if more kittens are coming, but if you have help, I guess you could try straight away...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

horray! Hope the rest follow swiftly with no problems. Not sure about feeding him but I know queens sometimes wait until all of the litter are born before letting them feed so as long as he is cleaned and seems happy he will probably be okay. However it might be easier to give each kitten a little as they are born rather than trying to feed them all at once.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

kitten 2 is born, a black.


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yey!!! So glad it seems to be progressing well!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

glad she wasnt what my girly was like!

anymore now? id weigh them jot it all down and just start feeding if its for the first 24hours, are you going to seperate them from mum for this 24hours as they will suckle from her? 

now sure how she will act?? prob cry  hope it goes well and she doesnt reject them after the 24hours are up? :?(


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Oh, how exciting! I was following progress yesterday so can't wait to get the full update and pictures!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

You're probably shattered this morning :lol: but when you have a spare minute an update would be great :thumbup:
Hope all went well and kittens and mum are ok


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Morning everyone.

WHAT A NIGHT!!!!!

Here's the lowdown:

Kitten 1 born at 10:33pm 28th (red male) 106g

Kitten 2 born at 11:37pm 28th (black male) 114g

Kitten 3 born at 01:28am 29th (black tortie female) 96g

Kitten 4 born at 03:54am 29th (red male) 124g (sadly he died seconds after he was born and all attempts to revive him failed. I think it just took too long for him to be born). I was crying my eyes out.

I have 3 out of the 4 placentas accounted for but i think i drifted off after the last one was dried and weighed. She was in the carrier that i put beside my bed. I don't know if she delivered it or not, should i have her checked at the vet? Will he be able to tell if she has anything retained?
Labour is definetely over.

Also, for registration purposes, what date do i choose as the d.o.b.?

Kittens and mum are relaxed and doing well. I was unable to hand feed as she screamed at me and continually tried to take them off me. I didn't want her to be distressed so i've let them 'suckle'. I've checked her nipples and i don't think she has milk in yet. I'm about to make up a feed and have another try.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Hi Alison,

Oh no! I'm so sorry that you lost your last little boy. It's such a hard part of breeding, and to be so happy and so sad at the same time is very difficult. Rest in peace, little one.

About the possibly retained placenta, yes they absolutely can tell if it's still inside or not by palpating her and doing a general postnatal examination. It's a good idea to get it done anyway after every birth, even if everything looks fine, but in a case where one is doubtful and the consequences of an infection so great, I would think even more so. A lot of vets will do a house-call so as not to overly stress your new mother.

As for registration, I don't know of an official policy, but maybe a quick call to your cat-club would let you know if there is one. I would probably go with the 28th if there's no policy saying otherwise.

Very glad that Socks and babies are doing well, and I hope they continue to do so. :thumbup: Well done to you both.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> Morning everyone.
> 
> WHAT A NIGHT!!!!!
> 
> ...


Why did you try and take them off her? There was no need. If you get down on the floor or whatever you can feed them in situe so it doesn't stress your queen out.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

The red male has had a little milk but the others are having none of it!

It is very difficult and they wriggle so much that it would be impossible to feed without actually holding them, then they make noise which upsets mum.

I'm going to give the vet a call and see what he says about the placenta.

she's had something to eat and a large drink which is great! She is starting to come away for them for a few seconds at time.

I have photos but in the wrong format, will post later today!!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> It is very difficult and they wriggle so much that it would be impossible to feed without actually holding them, then they make noise which upsets mum.


I am going to disagree again its absolutely not impossible to feed kittens without removing them completely from mum, its just a bit trickier. Ive bottle fed often enough that I feel confident enough now just sitting on (or lying) on the floor and feeding the kittens as they lie with mum in a kitten pile in the begin years though I used to pick up the whole birthing box and set it up on a desk so I could feed at normal working height AND still keep the kittens with mum, this also has the added benefit of being able to sit in a comfy chair and having the good light from a desk lamp. It is of course your shout which route you take, but removing them from mum is often a recipe for disaster (if its stressing the kittens and hence the mother out). You have to weigh up the benefits of removing them to feed (i.e. easier for you do) with the drawbacks of removing them to feed (stressed kittens, stressed mum and a higher chance of rejection).

I know which option I would go for.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Congratulations on your kittens safe arrival and so sorry for the loss of the last little boy  It is so sad when, despite every effort, you cannot save one 
RIP tiny one x
Hope you get their feeding sorted soon without too much stress.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks Tje i will try feeding them lying down beside them. I never thought of that. Are they actually supposed to 'drink' the milk, or do they just lick it off their lips?

I just called the vet who says it's not harmful to have a placenta retained and that if there is one it will come away. He said if i'm worried i can take her up for a check over, and an antibiotic and oxytocin injection.
To be honest i don't like the sound of that. I have some experience of Oxytocin, it seems a shame to put her back into labour when she is so settled. She is bearly bleeding at all and has cleaned her fur up to perfection. The stud owner says not to worry and that i probably just missed it.

Is there any signs that she is retaining a placenta? I really don't want to give drugs that aren't necessary.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

It's gone 12 hours now for at least the first two kits. Are you going to weigh them again now to see if they have gained? That way you will know for sure if they have suckled successfully from mum. 

Did you not get one of those baby grow things that Tje linked you too previously, so as to prevent them from suckling? I would also agree, it's not impossible to feed them in situ, it just depends how much effort you're prepared to make.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Glad the kittens arrived safely , sorry to hear of the little one lost .

I understand your difficulties with hand feeding, when I wanted to top my little ones up (due to being a litter of 6) , they were not having any of it, despite many hours trying into the early morning. They had gone one day not gaining much weight and it worried me, however by the next day the weight gains were all on target. I have ordered a variety of different teats and bottles for next time, in case the need arises again.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

It's normal for newborn animals of most types to lose weight before they gain so i won't be worried.

Red male was 106 and is now 118 (gain of 12)
Black male was 114 and is now 128 (gain of 14)
Tortie female was 96 and is now 104 (gain of 8)

I am confident that i am doing my best for my litter.

Photos to follow...


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> It's normal for newborn animals of most types to lose weight before they gain so i won't be worried.
> 
> Red male was 106 and is now 118 (gain of 12)
> Black male was 114 and is now 128 (gain of 14)
> ...


Great news Alison :thumbup:

Will look forward to the pics!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

2flowers said:


> Glad the kittens arrived safely , sorry to hear of the little one lost .
> 
> I understand your difficulties with hand feeding, when I wanted to top my little ones up (due to being a litter of 6) , they were not having any of it, despite many hours trying into the early morning. They had gone one day not gaining much weight and it worried me, however by the next day the weight gains were all on target. I have ordered a variety of different teats and bottles for next time, in case the need arises again.


I hope this doesn't come over wrong.... what I would do in your shoes is go pay a visit to a foster mum or a breeder who has wide experience in bottle feeding. Often foster mums have far more experience with bottle feeding as we often get orphan kittens in, and more often than not our mums are too young, too skinny, too malnourished etc, so we often have to bottle feed even with kittens WITH mums. It is soooo much easier to learn how to bottle feed correctly when you actually see it being done. The more effective the person with the bottle is... the less likely the kittens are to tone the "we're having none of this" type of behaviour. Compare it if you like to a total novice giving a stroppy cat some worm paste... if you faff around it can be a total nightmare and very difficult for both cat and human ... but if you know what you're doing and you just act decisively, it's over before the cat knows what hit it. It's very similar with bottle feeding... using a good technique is not just easier for us humans, it's so much easier on the kittens too.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> It's normal for newborn animals of most types to lose weight before they gain so i won't be worried.
> 
> Red male was 106 and is now 118 (gain of 12)
> Black male was 114 and is now 128 (gain of 14)
> ...


So this means 2 of them at least have suckled from your queen? You said earlier only one of them had taken something from the bottle.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Tje said:


> I hope this doesn't come over wrong.... what I would do in your shoes is go pay a visit to a foster mum or a breeder who has wide experience in bottle feeding. Often foster mums have far more experience with bottle feeding as we often get orphan kittens in, and more often than not our mums are too young, too skinny, too malnourished etc, so we often have to bottle feed even with kittens WITH mums. It is soooo much easier to learn how to bottle feed correctly when you actually see it being done. The more effective the person with the bottle is... the less likely the kittens are to tone the "we're having none of this" type of behaviour. Compare it if you like to a total novice giving a stroppy cat some worm paste... if you faff around it can be a total nightmare and very difficult for both cat and human ... but if you know what you're doing and you just act decisively, it's over before the cat knows what hit it. It's very similar with bottle feeding... using a good technique is not just easier for us humans, it's so much easier on the kittens too.


At the time my kittens had not gained weight for 12 hours at two weeks old, however, they were still suckling from mum. I was concerned in case her milk was drying up, so I attempted to supplement them. If they had not gained any weight when I weighed them 6 hours later, all kittens would have been taken straight to my very experienced vet. This was a one off, no kitten lost weight I might add and mums milk was ok (hence why I stopped trying to bottle feed as I could see plenty of milk at that point from her nipples). I am confident on the technique having studied several videos on how to do so, it was just that they actually didn't need the milk as I had thought. I personally think that as a new breeder I was being cautious in case there was a problem - but there wasn't! 

At no time were my kittens in any danger and I did have the support of a breeder with 20 plus years experience and the support of others too if needed. Thank you for your advice nonetheless


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

2flowers said:


> At the time my kittens had not gained weight for 12 hours at two weeks old, however, they were still suckling from mum. I was concerned in case her milk was drying up, so I attempted to supplement them. If they had not gained any weight when I weighed them 6 hours later, all kittens would have been taken straight to my very experienced vet. This was a one off, no kitten lost weight I might add and mums milk was ok (hence why I stopped trying to bottle feed as I could see plenty of milk at that point from her nipples). I am confident on the technique having studied several videos on how to do so, it was just that they actually didn't need the milk as I had thought. I personally think that as a new breeder I was being cautious in case there was a problem - but there wasn't!
> 
> At no time were my kittens in any danger and I did have the support of a breeder with 20 plus years experience and the support of others too if needed. Thank you for your advice nonetheless


I hope I didnt touch a raw nerve. I absolutely wasnt criticizing you personally. I just think any and every breeder could benefit from knowing how to bottle feed properly. Because of what I do (foster mum mainly for orphaned kittens but of late more in the role of mentoring other newer foster mums) I come across a lot of foster mums, and they too have read the books and watched the videos of how to bottle feed and I have yet to come across one who hasnt learned a lot from actually seeing it done. What you said in your earlier post about I tried but the kittens were having none of it I believe that, I must have heard it 20 times this past kitten season alone, and all I meant was, almost every time when the proper technique is applied, the kittens will drink. So if I was a breeder I would definitely phone up my local rescue center and ask if I could speak with one of their more experienced bottle feeders and ask her for a live demo. I have two (say even three) friends who are all good responsible breeders with around 50 years experience between them, ones been breeding for 30 odd years, one for 12 years and one for about 8 years. I can learn TONS from them on pregnancy matters, and birthing and genetics and what not. They simply have FAR more experience than me on those scores. But when it comes to bottle feeding I would say a typical foster mum for a shelter gets far more experience of bottle feeding in one kitten season than an average breeder does in a life time. Its just the nature of the beast (down at heel shelter cats versus pampered and well looked after peds). Despite having reared kittens for 20 odd years I will never give out advice on here about birthing matters, because I know all the breeders beat me hands down on that score but when it comes to hand feeding well, I am mentoring a foster family right now and that lady hadnt bottle fed before April of this year and had only raised two litter in previous years  but she is arguably FAR better at it already than my friend who has been breeding for 12 years, simply because you learn it a lot better when you either dont have mother cats or you have worse than useless immature and undernourished mother cats.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Tje said:


> I hope I didn't touch a raw nerve.


Hi Tje,

No you haven't at all  In fact I agree with many of your points. I greatly admire those who foster like yourself and you must have a lot of experience to offer others.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

2flowers said:


> Hi Tje,
> 
> No you haven't at all  In fact I agree with many of your points. I greatly admire those who foster like yourself and you must have a lot of experience to offer others.


it's just horses for courses 2flowers.... no one with half a brain would listen to my birthing or pregnancy advice, lol... I simply don't have any worth giving out. Breeders are the ones who know about how pregnancies and birthing should happen, and what to look out for and what is normal or what is worrisome... I just think with bottle feeding and hand rearing in general that foster mums have the edge over breeders with that one. And I do actually mean that as compliment to breeders... if breeders are doing everything right then there really should be very little need to bottle feed... (this sadly isn't the case in rescue as our queens are often so young and terribly malbourished).


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