# Co-ownership with breeder. Pros and cons?



## WelshPupLove (Jun 21, 2017)

Hi.

I received a proposition today to have the opportunity to co-own a bitch with a local breeder who I've known for a long time. 

She has said that I would have the pup for free, we would then split vet bills and when the time came for her to have puppies we would split the profit there also. While I know I would be putting the work into the bitch, I would be getting her for free (she is/will be kc registered).

This is the first time I've ever heard of shared ownership and can't find much information about it other than for showing the dog which I will not be. She will be a family pet and used for breeding, at least 1 litter and that may be it.

So is it worth doing? What are the pros and cons? Thanks!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

What if she isnt suitable for breeding?

I find it distasteful that a dog that is still a tiny puppy is being thought of already in terms of what she can produce when she is old enough and the 'profit' that can be made out of her.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

I agree with Nonnie here on the profit issue. I don't think it is wrong to get a dog to potentially breed, especially on co ownership with the breeder they should be there to help and mentor...... but when they say we split profit it makes me think of byb, maybe it is simply how it is worded.
If you won't be showing the dog, will the breeder be showing (or titling in some other venue) the dog at their expense?

I think the pros and cons are very sttaoght forward. You need to iron out the details and agree on them, but typically one person gets a nice dog and the breeder still has access to the dog and is their to aid with the dog.
Things can go very wrong and ruin relationships though if disagreements arise later, such as deciding on breeding, medical care, rights and responsibility, ect, ect.

I've sent a few dogs out on co ownership and it has always worked out very well for me. I've never had it go wrong other owner does day to day and is like any other owner, but I'm there is needed and to take to shows they can't go to and they handle at the ones they do go to.
I've also been offered a nice male on co ownership, I was unable to take him at the time (they even had transport worked out). I will probably get it worked out where he can live with me next show season, he's already pointed. Mainly they want to do co ownership where I'd primarily keep him so that's the issue with already having my current dogs. I'd be rrsponsible for his food and vet bills, I'd be the one taking care of him everyday. Any breeding done of ever would have to be agreed upon and blood is too stay private and in proper homes. Really easy terms for me.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

As said before, what if she is not suitable for breeding? Who/ what process will decide if she is used for breeding? Will you or the breeder be showing the bitch? Will she be a working or sports dog? Who will pay for the health tests? Who will pay for the mating and any vet fees involved? What if the health tests will show poor results and you can't breed? Will the dog be officially written under your ownership then? Will the bitch become yours after the first litter? What if there is only one puppy and there is no "profit" after paying for health testing and raising the puppy? All of this needs to be considered and put down in writing in a contract between you and the breeder. 
Co-ownership is not an issue in itself, especially if you know the other person and fully trust them, but the issue comes from poor contracts and people immediately planning to earn cash from this sort of contract.
On a slightly different note - I have never heard of a breeder wanting to co-own a bitch so that they would split the money from a litter. Usually, this is done because the breeder sees a potential in a dog and would like to have the chance of having a puppy from the bitch and a chosen stud to improve their breeding line.


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## WelshPupLove (Jun 21, 2017)

sorry I should've been clearer.

Neither myself or the breeder will be showing the dog. She will be a family pet.
We will split all costs regarding the bitch and any puppies she may or may not have
When the puppies are sold we will go halves on what has been paid for them. If she decides to keep a pup that will come out of the final amount I believe.
I'm not doing this to make money!!!! I simply couldn't afford one of her beautiful dogs out right and she suggested this as an option. Of course the money for my time and efforts for breeding and looking after the litter is a bonus, as if I had bought her outright I probably would not have bred from her.
This is an experience breeder and she has seen potential in her already which is why she does not want to sell her but can't keep her as she has several other dogs already. We haven't spoke about what would happen if she was not suitable to breed as it is just a suggestion atm and I thought I would get some more information first.
I have to admit I don't know much about breeding YET, but the breeder I would be co-owning with has been doing this for a few years and has dogs with extremely good DNA, even selling her pups in America and other countries abroad too.

Just looking for the positives and negatives of co-owning before I make a decision to get further involved


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

The breeder has seen potential for what? How old is the pup?


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

How would the pet insurance work ? Who would be insuring her ? What happens if you have different views on the extent and type of veterinary treatment. Do you have any say on how many times and to who the bitch is bred ? Do you have any say as to who any pups go to. What happens if the dog is subject to legal action eg under dangerous dogs act - would you both accept responsibility as Co-owners ? What about feeding worming and other routine health care. Who pays and what happens if there are disagreements about brand / what is used or how often (as appropriate).

What happens when the bitch is too old / no longer suitable to bear pups if she eve is to start with. Does Co-ownership remain.

Just some questions I would want to ask. Personally I am not sure I would be happy about someone else being able to have an input in to the health and welfare of a dog I owned.

If you do go with it get a solicitor to scrutinize the contract and check what legal or other implications may be first. (Their fee might well be greater than the purchase price of a dog)


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

WelshPupLove said:


> sorry I should've been clearer.
> 
> *Neither myself or the breeder will be showing the dog. She will be a family pet.*
> We will split all costs regarding the bitch and any puppies she may or may not have
> ...











What does "extremely good DNA" even mean?
If this puppy is being sold just as a pet and will not be shown or worked, what freaking potential can someone even see in her? *runs off screaming and ripping her hair out because humanity is bloody insane* Does the breeder mean the puppy has a potential for breeding because she has a uterus? Because here's a newsflash: not everyone and everything needs to pop out babies. The only potential the breeder can see in this little pup and you is a cheap money making machine.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

WelshPupLove said:


> sorry I should've been clearer.
> 
> Neither myself or the breeder will be showing the dog. She will be a family pet.
> We will split all costs regarding the bitch and any puppies she may or may not have
> ...


Wait. So she's going to a pet home, but is probably going to be bred from? I'm confused...if she's the most perfect specimen of the breed then surely she should be shown to get he the titles that prove she's a great specimen, so why is she going to you as a pet rather than show dog?? All co-owned dogs I know are show dogs with great pedigree and the certificates to prove it. Yes yes I know that just because a dog gets tickets doesn't mean it's the best specimen around, BUT if she is a show dog owner and is planning to breed from her dogs, then why is she giving it to you as a pet? I'm very confused. This dog may look like she has potential now, but she may grow up to be totally the wrong conformation, have a crap temperament, and have bad health. So giving her to you as a brood bitch seems totally confusing!!!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

WelshPupLove said:


> sorry I should've been clearer.
> 
> Neither myself or the breeder will be showing the dog. She will be a family pet.
> We will split all costs regarding the bitch and any puppies she may or may not have
> ...


1.) Surely this breeder has her own pet dogs to breed from? in the nicest possible way, if she wants to sell you a pet quality dog and make you breed from it and wants to keep half of the money, she's doing it for the money......you do the hard work in raising the litter, she still profits from it!

2.) You will split the costs of the litter but you cannot afford to buy the puppy outright? if you could not afford the cost of the puppy, which is a drop in the ocean compared to lifelong costs, how will you afford rearing the litter? especially if something goes wrong, like her requiring an emergency c-section which could cost £2000 or more?

3.) What potential has she seen in her? the potential to make money? how do they have "extremely good DNA"? what breed is it and what makes their DNA exceptional?


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Ok, I'll ask because I can't see that anyone else has...

What breed is she?


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

OP, here what co=ownership* is not:*
1. It is not a way of getting a free puppy and then having it pay off your debt to the breeder by pushing out more puppies
2. It is not a way for a breeder to give up the £400 for a single puppy to then, a year later have some naive individual breed it and get back half of the cash from a litter of 4-6.

When *do *breeders offer co-ownership of puppies/ adult dogs? Good that you asked! Here are some ideas:
1. When the breeder sees a potential of a puppy to be successful in the show ring and be of value to their breeding line in the future, but they cannot keep another dog due to their circumstances.
2. When the breeder sees a potential of a puppy to be successful in a work field or sports and be of value to their breeding line in the future, but they keep another dog due to their circumstances.
3. When the breeder has an option to have a puppy homed in another country where the dog could compete either in show or sports and if successful, then come back for some time to the breeder for competing in their country and produce a litter.
4. When a breeder is unable to keep the puppy themselves but there's a suitable home near the breeder, the owners are not planning to show or compete with the dog but are happy for the breeder to do the showing and competing part. For this the breeder will then most likely will then plan to have a litter from the dog to keep a puppy.
5. When a breeder puts co-ownership in the sales contract as a preventative measure for unscrupulous breeding. In this case puppy buyers will be required to complete the health tests on the dog. Following these tests they are allowed to breed the dog as well as receive their full ownership of the dog.

Notice the pattern there? It is not "split the cash".


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

If you go through this and she takes the dog to breed and your dog dies due to complications will you be able to cope with that?


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## WelshPupLove (Jun 21, 2017)

Okay, I didn't come here for anyone to have a go, I was just curious as I'd never heard about it before. I haven't committed to anything and won't be until I'm 100% sure 

The dog is a lilac and tan French bulldog.


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## WelshPupLove (Jun 21, 2017)

labradrk said:


> 1.) Surely this breeder has her own pet dogs to breed from? in the nicest possible way, if she wants to sell you a pet quality dog and make you breed from it and wants to keep half of the money, she's doing it for the money......you do the hard work in raising the litter, she still profits from it!
> 
> 2.) You will split the costs of the litter but you cannot afford to buy the puppy outright? if you could not afford the cost of the puppy, which is a drop in the ocean compared to lifelong costs, how will you afford rearing the litter? especially if something goes wrong, like her requiring an emergency c-section which could cost £2000 or more?
> 
> 3.) What potential has she seen in her? the potential to make money? how do they have "extremely good DNA"? what breed is it and what makes their DNA exceptional?


I don't know the answers to some of that lol but it's something I'll be asking and considering. I just didn't know anythinf about shared ownership. She does have her own dogs which is why she cannot keep another one but she does want a litter from her.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Who would actually own the bitch at the time of mating?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

WelshPupLove said:


> I don't know the answers to some of that lol but it's something I'll be asking and considering. I just didn't know anythinf about shared ownership. She does have her own dogs which is why she cannot keep another one but she does want a litter from her.


Of course she wants a litter because she will make money from her. French bulldogs often need c-sections due to their anatomy, would you be splitting the vet bill with her (which can easily run into thousands of pounds)?

Basically she would be using your dog as a cash cow. And gambling with her life too, as breeding is not without risk.

I am not hugely familiar with ins and outs of Fench Bulldogs, but I believe lilac and tan is a non standard colour for the breed. The only people it is desirable to are backyard breeders because they can charge more for "rare" colours. She doesn't sound like a responsible breeder if she breeds non standard colours.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

And if money is a issue for you then the last thing you want is a badly bred French Bulldog, they along with other badly bred brachy breeds keep vets in business. 

Either go to a proper breeder and accept how expensive they are or look at alternative breeds that don't come with the stinking price tag.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

WelshPupLove said:


> Okay, I didn't come here for anyone to have a go, I was just curious as I'd never heard about it before. I haven't committed to anything and won't be until I'm 100% sure
> 
> The dog is a lilac and tan French bulldog.


http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/colours.aspx?id=4088
Lilac and tan isn't a KC recognised colour


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

No one is really trying to have a go. They are trying to understand the situation and give you advice. I would run away from this breeder from the sounds. They want you to take a pet dog and let them breed later, split the profits so all they see is potential to make money.

People have given you realistic issues and questions to ask yourself regarding co ownership. I'm offered full or co ownership on dogs often enough, but I would not take a dog from a breeder like this, there is so much potential for problems to arise between the two of you and the health of the dog.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

WelshPupLove said:


> I'm not doing this to make money!!!! I simply couldn't afford one of her beautiful dogs out right and she suggested this as an option. *Of course the money for my time and efforts for breeding and looking after the litter is a bonus, as if I had bought her outright I probably would not have bred from her*.


If you wouldn't breed from her if you had to pay for her, why (except for money) would you consider breeding her just because you can get her for free?

What does "good DNA" and selling to other countries even mean?

Sounds like this poor little girl is set to be exploited as a cash cow by 2 of the very people who should be looking after her best interests.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Why am I not surprised by the breed. This is reminding me of something I listened to the other week about fad breeds which end up in rescue; it mentions a particular BYB practise of farming out bitches to unsuspecting owners so they can reap the benefits and make £££ without any effort. This is apparently quite a problem in South Wales and Cardiff in particular. Going by your username OP this could well be relevant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08t3prg#play (54 minutes in)


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

WelshPupLove said:


> The dog is a lilac and tan French bulldog.


Lilac & tan is not a recognised colour in FBs and it's _highly_ probable that someone producing non-standard colours is doing so as a money making scheme without giving due care to health, temperament or conformation.

The popularity of Frenchies has absolutely skyrocketed in recent years. In 2007 only 692 were registered with the KC, last year the number of FB registrations was _21,470_. Unfortunately such a surge in popularity inevitably attracts unscrupulous people who see the opportunity to make some cash because people are willing to hand over large amounts of money for pups and even larger amounts for pups with "rare" features such as non-standard colours. Selling these fashionable pups abroad is no indicator that they're a decent breeder, just that someone is willing to pay enough to have a pup shipped. That may be because these dogs have amazing lines which will bring much needed genetic diversity to breeding programmes in other countries or, more likely, there are other people wanting to set up their own business producing "rare" coloured Frenchies and it's a worthwhile investment for them.

As other posters have pointed out, what you're describing isn't a normal co-ownership situation. It is though a very good way for an unscrupulous breeder to still make money off dogs they no longer own with absolutely zero effort on their part.

Is this breeder making use of the breed club health scheme? If not, why not? Have they done _any_ health testing at all? Obviously they can't be showing if they're breeding non-standard colours but are they doing anything else with their dogs? Any sports, activities, _anything_? Are they breeding for dogs of more moderate conformation to reduce the chances of breathing problems/hemivertebrae/inability to whelp naturally? If the answer to any (or, as I guess will be the case, all) of these questions is "no" then ask yourself exactly what is it that makes them such a great breeder...........


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

How much would the pup cost if you were just to buy her normally?

And a question for those who know way more about it than I do (I've never had a pedigree dog in my life!) - do the KC accept registrations of non recognised colours?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Run for the hills!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kittih said:


> What happens if you have different views on the extent and type of veterinary treatment


This would be my main concern. I have a cat with a serious medical condition and two vets (at the same practice) have suggested two different treatment options. One option is far more expensive than the other but _might _buy her more time (no guarantees). You might say fine, we'll go halves on it; or one of you might say no way. Also, at what point would the dog revert to you (I assume the co-owner would not be wanting to pay out once the dog was past the age of breeding)?

ETA: And sorry you are getting so many negatives...but to me it's one of those things which in theory are very attractive indeed, but which, in practice, may give you disappointment, even heartache. And of course, the dog's welfare must be considered.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Little P said:


> How much would the pup cost if you were just to buy her normally?
> 
> And a question for those who know way more about it than I do (I've never had a pedigree dog in my life!) - do the KC accept registrations of non recognised colours?


I've seen them sold for over £1200! The funniest (or saddest) thing is these puppies are then sold as carriers of lilac/ blue or any other desirable colour for the buyer, already indicating that it's ok to buy this puppy with plans to breed from. 
Normally, ethical breeders who find such colours in their liters just register them as "unrecognised colour" not for breeding. I know that in FCI you would get papers with an indication that the dog is "faulted" and is not for show or breeding.

Here's what the breed club has to say about this rare colour malarkey: http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/buyer-beware.html


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Ahh, this makes so much sense now.

Good DNA probably means they know what colours she carries so know what she will produce if put with the 'right' stud. In other words, pups that can be sold to make as much money as possible.

Tbh, sounds like a breeder that is taking you for a chump. They know you want a pup (although even if you could afford one id run for the hills - anyone breeding non-standard and 'rare' colours is a greedy, uncaring **** in my eyes) and are willing to 'give' you one, allow you to do all the hard work, then get her to pump out some puppies so they can make as much money with as little effort as possible.

They may be an experienced breeder, but they certainly arent an ethical one and should not be supported or encouraged in any way.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Now you have said what breed and colour the bitch is I would say steer clear and do not buy anything from the breeder. But initially I was going to suggest that, rather than co ownership, you have a breeding agreement where the you agree to have a litter and give back a puppy or even two puppies but the bitch is completely your responsibility. I did this with a sheltie bitch. It was a big well know breeder who wanted pups from a pup she had run on and decided was not going to be good enough to go to the top (when she saw her for her mating she regretted not keeping her! ) This was many years ago and maybe does not happen so much now. I was very happy as I had a pup I could not possibly afford. I could easily cope with a litter and shelties tend to be easy whelping and have small litters so I was not going to have a lot of puppies to find homes for. Oddly the thought of making money never crossed my mind, it was just something I was going to thoroughly enjoy doing.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Now you have said what breed and colour the bitch is I would say steer clear and do not buy anything from the breeder. But initially I was going to suggest that, rather than co ownership, you have a breeding agreement where the you agree to have a litter and give back a puppy or even two puppies but the bitch is completely your responsibility. I did this with a sheltie bitch. It was a big well know breeder who wanted pups from a pup she had run on and decided was not going to be good enough to go to the top (when she saw her for her mating she regretted not keeping her! ) This was many years ago and maybe does not happen so much now. I was very happy as I had a pup I could not possibly afford. I could easily cope with a litter and shelties tend to be easy whelping and have small litters so I was not going to have a lot of puppies to find homes for. *Oddly the thought of making money never crossed my mind, it was just something I was going to thoroughly enjoy doing.*


Breeding isn't something I've ever done or will ever do, I'm very pro rescue.

I do however, have involvement with a handful of good, ethical breeders through work and they all say that if you do it correctly (health testing, travel to the most suitable stud not the most convenient, scans, vaccines, post whelping care, puppy care etc.) then they're lucky to break even on what they spend vs the sale of the puppies.

The last thing breeding should be about is profit, but it sounds like it is the OPs breeders main motivator which screams run to me


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

It's enough to read the adverts for such puppies to understand the mentality of such breeders: they are literally selling "makers" and "producers" and "carriers". Forget about "cute" or "adorable" or "perfect family dogs". Who needs a catchy slogan when you can sell the puppy like a golden goose?
https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1595027-lilac-maker-pups-bluetan-choc-ready-manchester.html

I mean read the effing ad! "OOZING quality". Wtf? What quality? Who is judging this quality when these dogs do not compete in anything? Quality for what??? Licking their butts? I swear this ridiculous profit making from breeding needs to end. If you're selling dogs that are not working or show, then sell them for what they are - simple pets. Don't use crappy excuse for producing "quality" and use catch phrases like "father is the magnificent Vinny". Who the f is vinny? The fact is that 99% of the people who splash out over a grand on a dog that has no purpose but to be a family pet, have no clue who this vinny is or that actually, vinny is nothing but a poor dog who is constantly used to cover bitches just because his babies are born of the right colour. But hey! These pups are from magnificent vinny and they are oozing quality so they must be worth selling your car for, right?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

shadowmare said:


> It's enough to read the adverts for such puppies to understand the mentality of such breeders: they are literally selling "makers" and "producers" and "carriers". Forget about "cute" or "adorable" or "perfect family dogs". Who needs a catchy slogan when you can sell the puppy like a golden goose?
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1595027-lilac-maker-pups-bluetan-choc-ready-manchester.html
> 
> I mean read the effing ad! "OOZING quality". Wtf? What quality? Who is judging this quality when these dogs do not compete in anything? Quality for what??? Licking their butts? I swear this ridiculous profit making from breeding needs to end. If you're selling dogs that are not working or show, then sell them for what they are - simple pets. Don't use crappy excuse for producing "quality" and use catch phrases like "father is the magnificent Vinny". Who the f is vinny? The fact is that 99% of the people who splash out over a grand on a dog that has no purpose but to be a family pet, have no clue who this vinny is or that actually, vinny is nothing but a poor dog who is constantly used to cover bitches just because his babies are born of the right colour. But hey! These pups are from magnificent vinny and they are oozing quality so they must be worth selling your car for, right?


Christ!

Those arent being sold as pets, they are being sold as investments.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

shadowmare said:


> It's enough to read the adverts for such puppies to understand the mentality of such breeders: they are literally selling "makers" and "producers" and "carriers". Forget about "cute" or "adorable" or "perfect family dogs". Who needs a catchy slogan when you can sell the puppy like a golden goose?
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1595027-lilac-maker-pups-bluetan-choc-ready-manchester.html
> 
> I mean read the effing ad! "OOZING quality". Wtf? What quality? Who is judging this quality when these dogs do not compete in anything? Quality for what??? Licking their butts? I swear this ridiculous profit making from breeding needs to end. If you're selling dogs that are not working or show, then sell them for what they are - simple pets. Don't use crappy excuse for producing "quality" and use catch phrases like "father is the magnificent Vinny". Who the f is vinny? The fact is that 99% of the people who splash out over a grand on a dog that has no purpose but to be a family pet, have no clue who this vinny is or that actually, vinny is nothing but a poor dog who is constantly used to cover bitches just because his babies are born of the right colour. But hey! These pups are from magnificent vinny and they are oozing quality so they must be worth selling your car for, right?


Also price does not = quality.

I've seen some incredibly poor Frenchie specimens recently that have all been referred for extensive BOAS surgery costing thousands. One poor little dog lost consciousness every time it vomited due to its shocking inability to breathe


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

The sable girl is a real bargain.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Calvine said:


> The sable girl is a real bargain.


To be fair, they sound very reasonable breeders: "We are however very happy to review our prices for people we view will make fantastic new oweners and try to suit all people's budget."
I'm sure that if you're deemed right (naive enough), they would give you some sort of payment plan... for example they would give her to you for half price or even free, but in return you would then split the money from her first litter? 

Seriously though... here I am trying to work and save money to pay off my credit card when I could sell a FB litter and not only pay off my debt but also start my savings for a mortgage


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I find it so tragic the boom in popularity this breed has, that astronomical increase in dogs in the number of dogs registered is shocking.

I am also surprised that given how many of them there are that their prices are still so expensive. I mean I'd get if there were <1000 or less bred a year like it was 10 years ago, but now? as mentioned, they are just people's cash cows (and I am NOT included reputable breeders in this!). I do wonder if the price of the breed was more 'average' akin to breeds with similar numbers registered whether they would be anywhere near as popular......


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> I*'ve seen them sold for over £1200*! The funniest (or saddest) thing is these puppies are then sold as carriers of lilac/ blue or any other desirable colour for the buyer, already indicating that it's ok to buy this puppy with plans to breed from.
> Normally, ethical breeders who find such colours in their liters just register them as "unrecognised colour" not for breeding. I know that in FCI you would get papers with an indication that the dog is "faulted" and is not for show or breeding.
> 
> Here's what the breed club has to say about this rare colour malarkey: http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/buyer-beware.html


Christ where have you been looking?! That's a bargain for want of a better word.

Most of them go for £8,000 and up with some adverts saying 'POA. These babies are not cheap!!'


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> Christ where have you been looking?! That's a bargain for want of a better word.
> 
> Most of them go for £8,000 and up with some adverts saying 'POA. These babies are not cheap!!'


Seen them on pets4homes but can't remember what colour they were. Obviously not "oozing quality" since they're going so cheap!


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> Seen them on pets4homes but can't remember what colour they were. Obviously not "oozing quality" since they're going so cheap!


Apparently this one is worth more than £10K

https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1616375-quality-lilac-tan-french-bulldog-peebles.html


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Pappychi said:


> Apparently this one is worth more than £10K
> 
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1616375-quality-lilac-tan-french-bulldog-peebles.html


That is disgusting. Barely into the world and already being pimped out as a stud!


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> Apparently this one is worth more than £10K
> 
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1616375-quality-lilac-tan-french-bulldog-peebles.html


I bet I couldn't sell my kidney on the black market for that much!


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> Apparently this one is worth more than £10K
> 
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1616375-quality-lilac-tan-french-bulldog-peebles.html


That doesn't even look much like a FB to me?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> I bet I couldn't sell my kidney on the black market for that much!


I'd get a guaranteed return because my kidney has a scar on it :Hilarious

I mean Christ, people want a dog not a large down payment on a house.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

I think @Meezey is our resident FB expert?


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Quite frankly co ownership usually ends in tears.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> Apparently this one is worth more than £10K
> 
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1616375-quality-lilac-tan-french-bulldog-peebles.html


If you read the advert it is not £9999 but is not cheap. They have just put a random number in the advert, happens a lot.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I am not surprised the OP and the breeder are not interested in showing as these dogs are non standard colours and can only be registered as non standard and I am sure can not be shown.

I do know someone who breeds non standard coloured FB's and although they are pricey they are not as expensive as some of the examples shown here. She has all her puppies health tested before they leave for their forever homes.

The only person I knew that had a bitch on any sort of breeding terms was a friend and the bitch was in both names and when she had a litter the bitches breeder had pick of the bitches and then the mother became my friends dog completely.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

A lady i knew paid £1800 each for both hers and traveled 400 miles to pick them up.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Freyja said:


> I am not surprised the OP and the breeder are not interested in showing as these dogs are non standard colours and can only be registered as non standard and I am sure can not be shown.
> 
> I do know someone who breeds non standard coloured FB's and although they are pricey they are not as expensive as some of the examples shown here. She has all her puppies health tested before they leave for their forever homes.
> 
> The only person I knew that had a bitch on any sort of breeding terms was a friend and the bitch was in both names and when she had a litter the bitches breeder had pick of the bitches and then the mother became my friends dog completely.


How do you health test young puppies, do you mean she does not test the parents.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> Apparently this one is worth more than £10K
> 
> https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1616375-quality-lilac-tan-french-bulldog-peebles.html


To be fair, the ad does say this in it: "This boy is not cheap so please do not enquire if you do not know what a quality lilac tan french bulldog costs. He is not £9999!!"

Obviously just out to see what they can get though.

I thought that earlier in this thread it said that lilac tan's weren't a KC registered colour?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

WelshPupLove said:


> sorry I should've been clearer.
> 
> Neither myself or the breeder will be showing the dog. She will be a family pet.
> We will split all costs regarding the bitch and any puppies she may or may not have
> ...


Reading through your list of the whys and wherefores they is a few possible red flags that would concern me to be honest.

A good ethical breeder mostly will breed for a few main reasons, and the main ones are usually to improve their lines and quite often show too.

Since neither of you will be showing the dog then obviously showing is not one of the main reasons and as you say she will only be a family pet.

You say that she has stated that you will go halves on the vet bills, and you will get half of the money when the pups are sold, and if she decides to keep one which will probably be pick of the litter usually, but that she may only decide to keep one. This I'm a little confused about when as one of the reasons you give is that she doesn't want to sell this particular pup but cant keep her as she has several other dogs already. So whats going to be different about one of this dogs pups if you do breed her, if you do and she decides to keep a pup how would the situation be different then, unless she plans to farm it out again in the same way?

Although I have heard of co-ownership and all the problems that can arise from it too. Going by what you have said and some of the examples given for the reason, its not something I would personally entertain. As you say yourself given other choices of getting a pup you wouldn't want to breed yourself anyway.
It sounds like although its called co-ownership the main person whos in a win win situation is the breeder and she will have the most to gain by it or a lot more then you will. What happens if you decide not to breed, the breeder changes the goal posts, or you cant 100% decide on the rearing and training and any other things that are associated with the pups up bringing and how its kept. Done in the right way and for the right reasons it can and does sometimes work, but in co-ownership I seem to have heard more that can go very wrong over the years out the two possible scenarios.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

WelshPupLove said:


> Okay, I didn't come here for anyone to have a go, I was just curious as I'd never heard about it before. I haven't committed to anything and won't be until I'm 100% sure
> 
> The dog is a lilac and tan French bulldog.


If this is the case then I'm afraid that would be the final nail in coffin so to speak if I did originally have any thoughts on entertaining the idea.
The French Bulldog club of England are doing all they can to raise awareness on health issues in the breed and promote well bred health tested French Bulldogs. One of the things they warn about it so called "rare" colours which include Blue, Lilac, chocolate, Black and Tan and Merle. Ethical good breeders don't produce these colours intentionally usually its only the unethical ones so they can market them as rare and command high prices for them. The reason ethical good breeders don't intentionally produce them is that with these colours can come health issues.

You can read the French Bulldog clubs take on rare colours and the not breeding of them and why on the links below.

http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/rare-colours.html

This will give you even more info from their website on these colours
http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengla...7418/beware_if_you_see_adverts_like_these.pdf

Does she health test her dogs prior to breeding from them not just vet checks but specific health tests in the breed and what ones does she do?
If she doesn't then yet another reason to not even consider this.


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## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

You would be better off holding off and saving up for one you fully own. I cannot see a good outcome for this arrangement and will probably lead to heartbreak for you. 

You will want full control of what treatment the dog receives from a vet for starters. Many conditions have more than one treatment option - what if you and the Co-owner disagree on which to go for? The other party may refuse to pay if they disagree on what should be done, they may refuse to pay if they think it isn't necessary or may refuse their half for no reason at all. 

As for breeding the pup in the future would you be willing to risk the life of a dog you have grown to love as a family member?


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

just so you know a lilac frenchie is considered a fault. People say oh its a rarity, its a fault, the dog can't be shown and anyone that knows lilac is a fault will NOT buy it which means that even if she is bred chances 50/50 she will pass on lilac. Think about it, you are getting duped!


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

Linda2147 said:


> just so you know a lilac frenchie is considered a fault. People say oh its a rarity, its a fault, the dog can't be shown and anyone that knows lilac is a fault will NOT buy it which means *that even if she is bred chances 50/50 she will pass on lilac. * Think about it, you are getting duped!


I'm not understanding this? I thought that Lilac in French Bulldog breed was the same as Lilac / Isabella in other breeds (a result of a double recessive) judging by the appearance and name? 50% chance would indicate a dominate trait which I never heard of, as black pigment is dominant.

I did not think this dog should be bred, but if it is the same as other breeds them breeding her to another lilac then all the puppies will be lilac, if bred to liver dog that carries dilute chances are half would be lilac and half would be liver carrying dilute, if bred to dilute carrying liver half could be lilac and half dilute carrying liver, if sire merely carries both traits then there is only a 25% chance to get a lilac, if the sire only carries dilute then half would be dilute but none would be lilac and same true if sire carries only liver then half liver but no lilac, if sire doesn't carry either then NONE will be lilac, dilute or liver, they would all have black pigment instead.

If this is incorrect in regards to lilac in French Bulldogs someone please explain.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Blitz said:


> How do you health test young puppies, do you mean she does not test the parents.


I have no idea all I know is she advertises them as health tested


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## WelshPupLove (Jun 21, 2017)

Blitz said:


> Now you have said what breed and colour the bitch is I would say steer clear and do not buy anything from the breeder. But initially I was going to suggest that, rather than co ownership, you have a breeding agreement where the you agree to have a litter and give back a puppy or even two puppies but the bitch is completely your responsibility. I did this with a sheltie bitch. It was a big well know breeder who wanted pups from a pup she had run on and decided was not going to be good enough to go to the top (when she saw her for her mating she regretted not keeping her! ) This was many years ago and maybe does not happen so much now. I was very happy as I had a pup I could not possibly afford. I could easily cope with a litter and shelties tend to be easy whelping and have small litters so I was not going to have a lot of puppies to find homes for. Oddly the thought of making money never crossed my mind, it was just something I was going to thoroughly enjoy doing.


That's basically what we're doing? Except rather than her having a pup and me keeping the rest they will all be rehomed?

Yes of course she wants to make money off of the pup, she is a breeder and that is how she makes her money. Her dogs are all well cared for and I don't think anyone has the right to scrutinise her or how she treats her dogs without knowing her. Breeding these rare colours does not make her a bad breeder, they are all health checked and DNA checked etc etc. So please, don't tar all breeders with the same brush.


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## WelshPupLove (Jun 21, 2017)

Little P said:


> Breeding isn't something I've ever done or will ever do, I'm very pro rescue.
> 
> I do however, have involvement with a handful of good, ethical breeders through work and they all say that if you do it correctly (health testing, travel to the most suitable stud not the most convenient, scans, vaccines, post whelping care, puppy care etc.) then they're lucky to break even on what they spend vs the sale of the puppies.
> 
> The last thing breeding should be about is profit, but it sounds like it is the OPs breeders main motivator which screams run to me


All of the things you say good breeders do is what she does so I don't really understand your point. You can't assume she doesn't do these things


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

WelshPupLove said:


> Hi.
> 
> I received a proposition today to have the opportunity to co-own a bitch with a local breeder who I've known for a long time.
> 
> ...


Personally I would take legal advice http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

It is situation fraught with potential downsides

When you say you will split the vet bills who will be insuring the dog?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

WelshPupLove said:


> sorry I should've been clearer.
> 
> Neither myself or the breeder will be showing the dog. She will be a family pet.
> We will split all costs regarding the bitch and any puppies she may or may not have
> ...


I wonder why the bitch will not be shown? Surely the value of the puppies would increase if successfully shown? Potential customers would also increase?

Have you really totted up potential vet fees for uninsurable costs such as a caesar, spayingetc?

DNA is DNA, one is not better than another.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

What would she normally charge for the puppy?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

WelshPupLove said:


> That's basically what we're doing? Except rather than her having a pup and me keeping the rest they will all be rehomed?
> 
> Yes of course she wants to make money off of the pup, she is a breeder and that is how she makes her money. Her dogs are all well cared for and I don't think anyone has the right to scrutinise her or how she treats her dogs without knowing her. Breeding these rare colours does not make her a bad breeder, they are all health checked and DNA checked etc etc. So please, don't tar all breeders with the same brush.


But good breeders don't breed specifically to make money? some breeders may well profit from some litters (especially if all goes well with no complications and it's a big litter) but if money is at forefront then I would strongly question their ethics.

Breeding non standard colours is NOT something a good breeder would do. Ever. People try and breed "rare" colours for the novelty factor so they can charge more money for them.

Health checked is NOT the same as health tested. Please educate yourself on the difference.

Honestly, you are being duped here. We are trying to save you heartbreak. These sorts of dogs from that sort of breeder keep vets in business.


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## WelshPupLove (Jun 21, 2017)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If this is the case then I'm afraid that would be the final nail in coffin so to speak if I did originally have any thoughts on entertaining the idea.
> The French Bulldog club of England are doing all they can to raise awareness on health issues in the breed and promote well bred health tested French Bulldogs. One of the things they warn about it so called "rare" colours which include Blue, Lilac, chocolate, Black and Tan and Merle. Ethical good breeders don't produce these colours intentionally usually its only the unethical ones so they can market them as rare and command high prices for them. The reason ethical good breeders don't intentionally produce them is that with these colours can come health issues.
> 
> You can read the French Bulldog clubs take on rare colours and the not breeding of them and why on the links below.
> ...


She does health check all her dogs yes. Like I've said I don't know much/anything about breeding so not sure what tests they are. She has been doing this for years and produces healthy pups.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

WelshPupLove said:


> She does health check all her dogs yes. Like I've said I don't know much/anything about breeding so not sure what tests they are. She has been doing this for years and produces healthy pups.


Health checks are not the same as health tests!

If these have been done then post a link to their pedigree and health test results which are now all published online via the KC database.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

WelshPupLove said:


> That's basically what we're doing? Except rather than her having a pup and me keeping the rest they will all be rehomed?
> 
> *Yes of course she wants to make money off of the pup, she is a breeder and that is how she makes her money. *Her dogs are all well cared for and I don't think anyone has the right to scrutinise her or how she treats her dogs without knowing her. Breeding these rare colours does not make her a bad breeder, they are all health checked and DNA checked etc etc. So please, don't tar all breeders with the same brush.


It would probably still be better bet to own out right. If you can't afford one I find it hard to believe you can afford half the associated cost of breeding a FB and rearing the litter. I'm not saying you can't, it simply doesn't ad up with what you stated.

*So you mean she is a puppy mill/farmer, of course. *I would stay clear of any commercial breeder, you can find a decent priced french bulldog you are not required to breed and get full ownership. People here really are trying to help you, as they have good knowledge of breeding and breeders.



WelshPupLove said:


> She does health check all her dogs yes. Like I've said I don't know much/anything about breeding so not sure what tests they are. She has been doing this for years and produces healthy pups.


Health checks are not same as health test, as above poster has mentioned at least 2xs. How do you know she is producing healthy pups? You honestly know every pup she produced over the years? Don't take her word for it, is all I'm saying. You don't know much about breeding, but members here do so they are trying to truly advise you on your decision. Which is what you asked for.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

WelshPupLove said:


> She does health check all her dogs yes. Like I've said I don't know much/anything about breeding so not sure what tests they are. She has been doing this for years and produces healthy pups.


A vet health check as others have also said is purely that a check over so that as far as they can see the dog appears to be health and on examination nothing abnormal appears to be detectable.

Its possible for Frenchies as a breed to have many congenital and inherited defects. There are specific health tests for these known defects or a good deal of them in French Bulldogs the ones available are as follows:-

Health and Welfare Problems due to Conformation
(Body shape and physical characteristics)


The French Bulldog has a short (brachcephalic) nose and corresponding head shape abnormalities. This may result in Brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome (BOAS) (breathing difficulties and sometimes collapse of the larynx)
This head shape can also produce an elongated soft palate which is a further cause of breathing problems, particularly during exercise.
Narrowed nostrils also restrict oxygen intake.
Difficulties with panting causing overheating.
Cleft lips and palates can occur.
There are birthing difficulties due to the large head of the puppies and small pelvis of the mother.
Cherry eye (rolling out of third eyelid and eversion of tear gland - due to prominent eyes)
BVA/KC Health Schemes: www.bva.co.uk/chs

Hip dysplasia (malformation of the hip joint causing pain and disability): breed mean score 13.5 (parents should be lower)
Eye disease: Hereditary cataract (HC) (annual testing)
Identified by the UK Kennel Club as part of their _Breed Health and Conservation Plan_

*Estimated Breeding Values (EBVs)* are now available for Hip Dysplasia and Elbow Dysplasia: 
www.thekennelclub.org.uk/about-ebvs

DNA Tests Available


Hereditary cataract (HC- HSF4) (early onset)
Degenerative Myelopathy (DM) (causes progressive weakness of back legs, paralysis and incontinence)
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA-cord 1)
Hyperuricosusria (HUU)
Canine Multi-focal Retinopathy (CMR)
Unofficial (Breed Club) Schemes

Microchip identification
Veterinary examination
Patella test
Cardiologist heart test
Spine X-ray and evaluation
You can read more on the full link from which the above comes from
http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/french-bulldog/

The French Bulldog Club also has their own health scheme which has Bronze silver and gold health testing certificates you can read more about those on this link
http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/how-to-participate.html

You can read more about health problems and health tests on the French Bulldog breed club link

http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/

If she is doing any of these tests on her dogs prior to breeding from them and that means both the Mum and dad, or if she is using a stud dog that is owned by someone else isn't using one that has been health tested by the owner of the stud. Then she isn't a responsible breeder.

As mentioned in a previous post, certain colours including Lilac are not bred by responsible breeders or not intentionally any way either.


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## winterrose (Dec 30, 2016)

I grew up with my nan co-owning dogs. The agreements between my nan and the other owner were very fluid, which I think is important. 
Their agreements were:

*If *the dog was suitable to breed, they'd both get a say in who to mate the dog to. 
*If *the dog was suitable to breed, and did breed, the co-owner would get pick of litter. 
I don't see anything wrong with co-ownership if the agreements clearly state 'if'.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Little P said:


> How much would the pup cost if you were just to buy her normally?
> 
> And a question for those who know way more about it than I do (I've never had a pedigree dog in my life!) - do the KC accept registrations of non recognised colours?


A woman at my new job bragged to me that she can't leave her dog out in her garden because it'll get stolen. It's super rare and cost £4500. It's a lilac frenchie. I despair.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Hey @Phoolf, long time no see


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

picaresque said:


> Hey @Phoolf, long time no see


I still check in from time to time! Hope you're well


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Hanging in there, doggos too  How are your bigguns?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

picaresque said:


> Hanging in there, doggos too  How are your bigguns?


They're doing good, a gobby pair but very happy in our new house with large garden to roam about in. Targs had a fair share of health issues with skin and allergies etc but touch wood we seem to be on top of it. Love your profile pic


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