# Dodgy Tum - what next?



## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

WARNING - poop consistency descriptions lie ahead

I rehomed a dog almost 6 weeks ago and I'm having real trouble getting him settled in the poop department. He is a 17 month old entire springer. He is of slender build, but has lost about 2kgs since he came to us. He is now on the skinny side and the vet says he needs at least another 1kg - he is 13.2kg.

I do not know what food he was on before he arrived, but I know he was fed once a day and I received a carrier bag of kibble (variety unknown). We fed him the food he arrived with, but twice a day, and transitioned him on to wolfworthy, in line with the wolfworthy guidelines. When he arrived, his poop was not solid and it has not been solid ever since. It has varied from soft to liquid, getting more liquid as the day goes on. We persevered with wolfworthy for a few weeks, but I could not get him solid, so (on vet's advice) we moved to a single source hopefully unique protein. I chose skinner's duck and rice on advice from friends. I also cut out all treats that are not duck. He has been on skinners (and duck treats) for just over a week and no improvement. He is always hungry.

He is as energetic as ever and does not appear at all bothered by the digestive issues, but he cannot afford to lose any more weight. He has pooped 5 times today on three separate outings so it feels like food is rushing straight through him, although I have not tested transit times (sweetcorn etc.). I bought some Yudigest yesterday and he has had that yesterday and today, but I don't know how long it takes to have any impact.

So... do I stick with the skinners and yudigest for a few more days, or do I move him to Chappie or chicken/rice or cod/potato e.g. something bland? The vet said to give him a month and then they will do more tests in case it is more than an allergy/finding the right food.

Any thoughts gratefully received. Thanks in advance.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Has he been wormed?

I would say it may be wise to put him, as you suggest, on Chappie or chicken and potato, not rice.

He may benefit from some Prokolin for a while too.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

@Torin. might be able to advise you


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

And maybe some live yoghurt? Can't harm, might help?


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

He has been wormed, yes. Sorry - forgot to add that so thank you for the reminder.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I would give the Yudigest/skinners a chance to work. Perhaps soak the skinners before feeding. Makes it easier digest. Feed smaller meals more frequently if you can. Reduce the bulk and his tum may process it better.

Perhaps speak to Skinners for advice - they’re very good. You don’t have to take it but all input helps. Likewise Lintbells if you have any Yudigest queries.

Bionic Biotics supplement works better for pooh issues with Heidi and Yudigest for sickness but they’re all different. It’s finding what works for yours. Too many changes can be counter productive so don’t rush things even though you want it sorted yesterday!! - been there.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

I've not heard of Wolfworthy before - do you have the ingredients list?
Also do you have contact details for the people you homed him from? If so I would get in contact and ask for details of the kibble he was being fed. Not the end of the world if you can't find this out, but I would at least try if possible.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

From all about dog food.co.uk

wolfworthy is:
Ingredients List Freshly Prepared Chicken (18%), Sweet Potato(16%), Dehydrated Chicken (15%), Freshly Prepared Salmon (12%), Dehydrated Turkey (7%), Freshly Prepared Beef Liver (5%), Freshly Prepared Trout (4%), Dehydrated Salmon (3.5%), Chicken Fat (3.5%), Salmon Oil (3%), Freshly Prepared Beef Hearts (2.5%), Freshly PreparedBeef Kidneys (2.5%), Freshly Prepared Free Range Eggs (2%), Chicken Gravy (2%), Broccoli (1%), Spinach (1%), Carrot (1%), Vitamins & Minerals (0.4%), Seaweed (0.2%), Fructooligosaccharides (1, 925 mg/kg, 0.1%), Mannanoligosaccharides (170 mg/kg, 0.05%), Apple (0.03%), Cranberry (0.03%), Pear (0.03%), Bilberry (0.03%), Glucosamine (180 mg/kg), Methylsulphonylmethane (180 mg/kg), Chrondroitin Sulphate (125 mg/kg).


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Okay so the overlapping ingredients between that and Skinners are:
Poultry,

Only in Skinners:
duck, rice, oats, peas, linseed, sunflower, beet pulp

Only in Wolfworthy:
Chicken, sweet potato, salmon, turkey, cow, trout, eggs, broccoli, spinach, carrot, apple, cranberry, pear, bilberry

Skinners is good in theory for this sort of thing because the ingredients lists are nice and short, which means pinpointing the problem ingredients is easy. And yes there aren't any specific overlapping ingredients between them. However for some dogs it's the type of animal protein that's the issue, with specific animal species less so. The problem with your specific Skinners food choice is that duck is poultry the same as the chicken and turkey in Wolfworthy.

If you were looking at less serious symptoms then I would agree with @Mum2Heidi to give it longer than a week - that's basically no time at all. However given everything it does really sound like the food's nutrients aren't being absorbed in the intestines the way they should be. It may settle down, but like you I would be feeling twitchy about the timescale and everything.

If he (what's his name?) were my dog, I would personally switch to food which contains no poultry for a while (watch out for lurking chicken fat). And I would do this with a food that equally has a very short ingredients list rather than one with lots of fancy-sounding things from a bazillion different sources. Those are nice for the micronutrients and variety if your dog is okay with that, but they're a nightmare for using for identifying ingredient sensitivities.

Another of the Skinners ones might suit for the purpose, or Arden Grange or CSJ - all those brands have several specific foods with short ingredients lists, knowledge of dietary sensitivies (many sensitive dogs are fed on those brands), and have nutritionists who know their products and have the knowledge to advise. An alternative option could be Chappie wet (fish-based, good for dogs with sensitive digestion), or doing plain home-cooked for a little while with something that doesn't contain poultry. My preference for the situation of what you've said so far would be home-cooked easy-to-digest food using oily fish as a base - such as tinned fish with white rice and/or normal potato as a base (white rice is much easier for the gut to digest than the whole/brown that is in Skinners). Because I would be wanting him to be able to digest something slightly better, to press a bit of a pause/ reset button for the helpful gut bacteria.

[edited to fix a typo]


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

@Torin. Why not poultry. That is the go to for tummy upsets. Fair enough, some dogs cant manage it but most dogs find it the easiest. Neither of mine can manage anything but chicken or turkey with brown rice and one of them can take original chappie as well. Or did I miss something and the OP has said her dog is worse with poultry.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Blitz said:


> @Torin. Why not poultry. That is the go to for tummy upsets. Fair enough, some dogs cant manage it but most dogs find it the easiest. Neither of mine can manage anything but chicken or turkey with brown rice and one of them can take original chappie as well. Or did I miss something and the OP has said her dog is worse with poultry.


Because in this specific situation poultry is the common factor across both the foods tried, with no improvement on pretty serious symptoms.


Torin. said:


> Okay so the overlapping ingredients between that and Skinners are:
> Poultry,
> 
> Only in Skinners:
> ...


Poultry, oily fish, and eggs are the easiest animal protein sources for the gut to digest, which is why they're the ones suggested for sensitive dogs (and also for puppies and for oldies), however they're also pretty common causes of digestive issues too. But here, there is another easy option which isn't already a common factor in tried foods, so using that makes sense. If the dog is equally bad on oily fish then that's still more information in the toolkit, but if there's an improvement then it would strongly suggest poultry is a problem. A fairly easy yes/no question while still being a very easy to digest foodstuff


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks so much for taking the time to help - we really appreciate it. With no word of a lie, considering there’s the possibility of a poultry sensitivity, his name is Paxo (as in chicken stuffing).

We will switch to something fish based and keep our fingers crossed. Thanks again to everyone for their help.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So... after researching foods and poring over details, new food is arriving today. I went with Harringtons Just 6 salmon and vegetable on the basis of the minimal ingredients and no chicken fat or oil (which both Arden grange and csj seemed to have). Paxo’s output remains dodgy so should I move him over slowly over several days, or just start him on the new stuff? I know it’s supposed to be a gradual change, but if he’s already loose, is there any point?

thanks!


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Has he been on plain home cooked stuff at all to settle him down as a bit of a reset and get some nutrition in him, or would it be going from one kibble to the other? That would still be my preference at this point - not longterm as without extra research to ensure micronutrients it's not balanced, but as a a shorter term thing in these sorts of scenarios it can be really useful.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

I haven’t home-cooked for him - hate to sound clueless but would not know where to start as to how much fish or potato etc... I don’t want to underfeed but also don’t want to overfeed, as that won’t help him either. 

Sorry - he’s our first dog and this is a massive learning curve. I have fostered before and never had a dog with such a long term dodgy tum.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I think your best bet would be a bland diet to rest his tum and get a neutral starting base.
I use chicken and rice. You could poach white fish and use the water to cook some rice (until very starchy) or potato. Mix 50/50 and feed. Little and often. Small amounts frequently at first then gradually increase quantities and reduce frequency. I don’t worry about quantities, more about what comes out and let that be my guide. After a good few days normal output very slowly add a little of the food you want him to have. If all goes well, gradually increase food, decrease bland diet. This way, if you have a set back, you have the bland diet to fall back on. At the moment you have nothing. A sensitive tum becomes more sensitive with each set back and takes longer to sort.
Just my opinion from my experience with Heidi.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Pricivius said:


> I haven't home-cooked for him - hate to sound clueless but would not know where to start as to how much fish or potato etc... I don't want to underfeed but also don't want to overfeed, as that won't help him either.
> 
> Sorry - he's our first dog and this is a massive learning curve. I have fostered before and never had a dog with such a long term dodgy tum.


You're fine, I'm also on first actual own dog, but I've lived with housemates' dogs as an adult, and fosters, and just really really like animal nutrition  And also I had this exact same situation with working out intollerances in 2018/19 with own dog.

So the idea with homecooked stuff to settle the tummy is sort of like when a human is ill and you eat really bland food? You wouldn't eat that diet longterm, just to help get you back to normal. Stuff that is physically tempting to eat, and then very gentle on your insides to digest. So although Paxo (I did laugh at the name!) seems to be feeling okay in himself still, the back end stuff (and thus gut) is obviously not feeling well.

Doing this lots of small meals of homecooked plain ingredients helps the gut bacteria (good bacteria, what actually does the food absorption into the body) to recovery from their current 'unhappiness', and then be more ready to process the new kibble. Without this gentle reset button you could end up with a false positive reaction to the food. So the bacteria aren't happy and not doing their thing and you switch food and they're still not happy and doing their thing, so it looks like the new food doesn't suit. But really it's that the intestinal microbiome is still stressed from before? You want to avoid this situation if at all possible when determining intolerances because it can be near impossible to determine if you're looking at a real reaction to the food or a false positive.

With unwell digestive things, what also helps is little and often. So the stomach isn't expanding loads for a big meal or two a day, and then all that food going through the intestines in bulk and then a big gap. Rather, instead, maybe 4 or 5 or more small meals spread out across the day, so that the gut has a smaller amount to process each time and less long between each new input of food. This also means that the actual total amounts don't matter so much as well - check the poo and see how you go. The ingredients best suited for this ((plain chicken), oily fish, white potato, rice) are very easily digestible. What that means is that the body is spending less energy digesting the food, which means a greater net gain of energy for the body to use. So *hopefully* at the very least, Paxo's weight loss will stop dropping so fast. Maybe even stabilise or increase. But some sort of 'stop this runaway train' of both symptoms and weight which is so concerning.

Using fish for this is fairly simple because you can buy tinned oily fish from the supermarket. You ideally don't want to use fish tinned in brine because even if you wash them off before feeding they'll still be higher in salt. You could also buy fish and steam/ poach it yourself (it freezes okay so you could do a big batch and then defrost if that suits your human timescale better). And then ditto with potato or rice (potato is often easier because of the rice safety stuff we know from human food hygeine relating to bacteria growth on cooked rice, but with a bigger dog and so on it may be that rice is easier for you). You want to aim for about 50% fish 50% potato or rice (pick one for the whole time and stick to it) per meal. But remember the little and often thing. As said earlier in the thread you can also add a probiotic supplement to this very simple, very easy to digest meal. This gives an extra little boost to the gut bacteria, and also in turn it helps solidify the poo. Good options are Protexin Pro-Kolin and NutraVet NutraBio - they come in pre-dosed syringes and are very easy to portion out.

I would do this for about a week minimum. But very much judge it on how the poo consistency is going. And then you can start to reduce down the number of meals per day and then sloooowly add in your chosen kibble.

Sorry if the above is over-explained or over-simplified, I wanted to be as clear as possible in case I skipped over the bit that you wanted to know 
And also @Mum2Heidi types quicker so also what she said haha!


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thank you both for your help - I sent OH out to Tesco Express! Potatoes are currently boiling and the fish is ready and waiting.

As an aside, and call me crazy but I was desperate, I have sent off his saliva for sensitivity testing. I know it’s not true allergen testing but I figured it may help. It will be interesting to see what comes back.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Pricivius said:


> As an aside, and call me crazy but I was desperate, I have sent off his saliva for sensitivity testing. I know it's not true allergen testing but I figured it may help. It will be interesting to see what comes back.


So saliva testing isn't appropriate at all for allergies, as it's physically unable to measure the levels of histamine in the body, either in general (blood) or site-specific (pinprick tests).

However, it is slightly more appropriate for looking at intolerances, because the tests look at antibody levels in the saliva, and how raised certain ones are at set times relative to when the offending ingredient was last eaten may be able to help.
The problem is that there's loads of different antibodies. And the body naturally produces certain ones in response to eating food anyway. So a raised antibody test (depending on the specifics of what is being tested for, and what the threshold level is) may just confirm "yep this dog ate recently" rather than "yep this dog is intolerant to this specific ingredient". So then you get into the true positive vs false positive region again...
So like, don't take the results back as gospel as you may well end up ruling out foods that are perfectly fine and unnecessarily limiting your options further.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

I figured it’s not much use, but I was getting a bit desperate. It will be a while before results are back so hopefully I will have had some success before then.

After last night’s bland meals, we have some wind this morning, which is a development.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So... we moved Paxo on to fish and potato on Thursday evening - 2 meals. On Friday morning, regular as always, he deposited a loose to liquid poop. This was about 8.30 and he has always pooped within a minute of reaching the field. Ordinarily, I would then expect at least one more poop (either on his lunchtime walk or his evening walk), but more often two more, or even three or four. His record is five in a day.

Since Friday morning, nothing. He’s not trying, and I haven’t changed his walks or their timing. He had two meals of fish and potato on Friday morning, then his lunchtime walk, then a meal in the afternoon, then a walk and then an evening meal. I expected a poop this morning as it has been 24 hours since his last, but nothing.

Is this okay and to be expected with the change of diet? Or should I get him to the vet in case there is a blockage?

thanks again in advance!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I had T on a bland diet earlier this year because of a tummy upset and took him back to the vet after exactly the same thing as you describe. The vet told me he wasn't constipated (and while I have no issue with vet fees, that was £45 I could have put to better use).

On fish/chicken and potato/rice there is apparently just far less waste. @Mum2Heidi and @Torin. explained it well, I'll see if I can find the thread.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

This one - helpfully, Torin. quoted Mum2Heidi in her reply!

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/a-bit-worried-about-timber.527756/page-5#post-1065622391


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Brilliant - thanks, JoannaF. Much appreciated. We shall wait him out as long as he is not in discomfort or pain and is active and eating/drinking. Hopefully, this means it’s working!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes, definitely wait it out. 
His windy tum either signalled another eruption or things slowing down.
Everything crossed it was the latter and it’s looking good.
Still very early days.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Yes, definitely good that food is no longer going straight through him  Thanks for finding that and linking @JoanneF - I had forgotten I'd explained it before. @Mum2Heidi and I are such a tag team on sensitive tummies!


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

You guys are all brilliant. 

So, we’ve had a poop! Small and well formed. Tentative joy...


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Only dog lovers could feel so pleased about a successful dog poop!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Pricivius said:


> You guys are all brilliant.
> 
> So, we've had a poop! Small and well formed. Tentative joy...


Yay!!! I'm going to jump up and down for you - I'd be tentative if I was you.
I remember it well. The anticipation, crossed fingers and relief it came out firm. Followed by extreme delight it was firm from start to finish. 
Keep up the good work


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So this morning’s offering was less pleasing. Not bad to start, although not as firm as I would like, and then tailed off to soft. Not as bad as he has been, but not firm enough for my liking.

I gave him some prokolin yesterday evening, and will give him some more today. Hopefully that will help...


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

My first thought is always - has anything changed?
Yes, he’s had prokolin.
My head tells me that can’t be the cause. But my instinct is doubting.
Enough of the waffle but food (pardon the pun) for thought.
Alternatively, have you increased the amount you feed. Firm start and loose ending often indicates over feeding.
Perhaps in this case more than he could deal with at a time. Id go back to the amount you were feeding when all was well.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

I have given him sprats - I figured they were fish so would be okay.

And he’s just been sick. Brought up some of this morning’s mash and salmon.

Maybe there is more going on here. I will persevere a little longer, but perhaps we need to go back to the vet.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Oh dear. What a shame. He was doing so well. 
It will be the sprats no doubt.
Far too early to make any changes with an already sensitive tum - but you don’t know just how sensitive tum is until you try.
I also wouldn’t be using salmon. Very rich and oily. Plain white fish - no skin is far better if you can - and you’ll probably need that to sort him now.
Obviously if he is feeling poorly and it continues he’ll need the vet. I think if you stick to a very bland diet, no treats and take it very, very slowly you’ll be ok. I’m afraid every set back takes longer and more patience to overcome.
I can only speak from experience. Rona(member here) screamed these things at me when Heidi was going through the same but I just didn’t get it and learned the hard way. My other dogs rarely had upsets and got over them no problem.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Okay. Thanks for explaining. This makes everything so difficult as I am used to training using treats so without treats, we can’t train and without training he can’t go offlead as treats are his rewards (or they were). And he loves being offlead!


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Short term awkwardness for longer term progress and all that. When I was doing this with Cadvan (who is very food motivated, I have some other options now, but I didn't during our food trial) we mostly did sniffaris rather than our usual walks.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

I know - sorry for being a big Forrest grump. I’ve just filled the freezer with salmon! 

We’re on a sniffari now and his contributions are back to loose ending in liquid.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Pricivius said:


> Okay. Thanks for explaining. This makes everything so difficult as I am used to training using treats so without treats, we can't train and without training he can't go offlead as treats are his rewards (or they were). And he loves being offlead!


It's wretched I know but you'll just make things worse if you don't adopt a strict food regime. It took me 3 months to get Heidi properly well after her first upset because I didn't do it. To make matters worse OH would slip her a tasty morsel feeling sorry for her or a well meaning dog walker give her a treat and I'd be back to square one and that was when I was being strict.

Use the fish as training treats if you want to keep up the training. I took chicken in a little plastic container. If you're using fish and mash, make little balls and bake them.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I’ve just been through something similar with Loki. I think we have cracked it he has Arden grange sensitive kibble and then cooked fish or turkey to make it yummy. It was months of trial and error. We use his cooked turkey as a treat.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Today’s offering is more firm (although a strange orange colour). I’ll take the firm, though. No treats have been given and OH has created some baked treats from Paxo’s food as suggested. Bless him.

I looked at Arden grange but their dry contains chicken oil/fat which were trying to avoid. Their wet is poultry free, so we may be able to move on to this much later down the line.

thanks again for everyone’s support and advice.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Paxo has now been on pollock and mash for a couple of days and the output is still pretty loose. Any thoughts?

he’s happy in himself and, if anything, he may have put a little weight on but he’s still too thin.


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

Have you thought about feeding Burns Fish the ingredients in this food is Brown rice,fish,oates,peas,salmon oil,sunflower oil,seaweed and minerals.
Burns is quite local to us one of my daughters friends is a nutritionist for them and they are very helpful


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I’ve never used potato always white pudding rice. It’s very starchy and firms things up.
I use too much water, overcook so the rice is very soft, then poach the chicken or fish in the same water. I mix any left over water into the food or offer as a drink.
If you can use rice I’d give it a try before adding or changing too many ingredients. Brown rice has more fibre as well as nutrition but could end up pushing things through quicker.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks both - I steered away from rice on the basis it was in his previous foods and something was disagreeing in there with him.

We’ve just had another loose deposit of orange poop. My amateur googling tells me orange means it is either transmitting too quickly, or there’s a liver problem.

How long should I persevere with the home cooked diet? I’m just conscious it is not a nutritionally balanced diet and quantities are guess work.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Yep, I agree with @Mum2Heidi that I'd try rice before kibble.

In terms of worrying about it not being balanced, remember that even if food is balanced when it goes in (such as a complete kibble), if he's not able to digest it properly then the nutrition that's absorbed won't be balanced anyway. That's why despite being on a good food at decent amounts before he was rapidly losing weight. So it's just a bit more 'in your face' that the current food isn't balanced, but not necessarily any less balanced for what he's actually digesting?

Re orange poo, that's just a sign that the food isn't being digested really - could be liver (the liver is involved in digestion), could be any number of other causes. It's more of a worry if poo that has been healthy suddenly goes orange without a diet change. But certainly if you can't get things to settle at all, then further testing through your vet is probably the next stage.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Okay - thanks again for all your help. This is just the most frustrating thing ever!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I have a thread on dog chat which details my descent into madness over Loki’s tummy issues. Hopefully you will get there in the end.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Pricivius said:


> Thanks both - I steered away from rice on the basis it was in his previous foods and something was disagreeing in there with him.
> 
> We've just had another loose deposit of orange poop. My amateur googling tells me orange means it is either transmitting too quickly, or there's a liver problem.
> 
> How long should I persevere with the home cooked diet? I'm just conscious it is not a nutritionally balanced diet and quantities are guess work.


I thought there was a reason you steered away from rice but didn't look - sorry. I think I'd still try it. 
If he's fine and happy in himself I would worry too much. 
Have you given him any little thing different?
The food would fail to digest properly and = orange pooh if you've increased the amount you're feeding (to compensate his weight). His tum can't cope and it goes straight through. Every adjustment has to be small or it will cause a set back.
As for a balanced diet, I really wouldn't worry at this stage. Getting his tum well is paramount. If you're using bionic Biotics that will make a big difference in nutrients.
The main thing is not to rush things. His tum is extremely sensitive and will react. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey Its so hard not to hurry things along because you want him better but it only prolongs this as his tum becomes more sensitive each time.
To give you an example - I got Heidi well on the bland diet, went back to it a few times because I rushed things and ended up counting kibbles and increasing 2 at a time.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So... looking at calories, we aimed to give him 700. We worked that out with salmon and potato. Then, when we switched to pollock, we gave the same weight amount, not realising that pollock is a lot less calorific. We realised yesterday that he was actually getting about 450 calories. We have increased it today. So yes, we did something different by feeding too little and have only changed that today, so that doesn’t explain the orange poop and it cannot be because of an increase as actually he has been getting too little. We stopped the yudigest and then the prokolin in case they were causing a problem. He had put some weight back on but has now lost it again. Our vets are back to video appointments but I’m not sure there’s much point if they don’t actually see him to take bloods or look at a poop sample?


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I focus on getting tum well. Not calories or weight. Without the first, you can’t have second or third.
Perhaps you changed to pollock too quickly.
I start with teaspoons of food and go at a pace that tummy can cope with. On the first day Heidi may only manage 4 teaspoons. She may lose a small amount of weight but only for a short period of time. 
Did you try Bionic Biotics again? I think you said you had success with it initially. It sorted Heidi’s runs better than prokolin or yudigest but took more than 1 pouch. 
There is no quick fix. Back to basics and start again until you get it right. Bearing in mind that each time it’s harder and takes longer.


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## aroominyork (Dec 12, 2017)

Since we are all chipping in with theories, experience and possibilities for an undiagnosed condition I'll add to it. We have a three year old German Shepherd who had reasonably runny stoolls, though not as bad as yours. We give him Vitamin B12 (Protexin Veterinary Cobalaplex) and probiotics (The Petcare Factory Advanced Probiotic Plus), both bought from Amazon. They work a charm. We tried reducing the dose of each to half (to save money) and he immediately went backwards, so it's a full dose every day.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So... after some truly horrible offerings, I switched Paxo to tinned Chappie on Thursday evening. This was partly because I really struggle with cooking fish and partly because OH could not be within 50m of Paxo’s deposits without gagging, but mainly because fish/mash just didn’t seem to be suiting him.

We had our first solid outcome on Saturday morning, and 4 more have followed since. I have also baked some chappie to offer as treats, which he seems happy with. So relieved that he is more comfortable as it cannot have been nice for him in the gut department.

My next question - does this tell us anything? We will stick with chappie for a bit to make sure he stays stable, but then we would like to move him on to a kibble. Any suggestions what we should try - obviously in very small quantities!?

Thanks again to everyone for their help.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

That's good news.

I went back and read the first few posts (I haven't re-read the whole thread) and it looked like poultry was a possible culprit. Since Chappie is fish based, and it seems to be suiting him, if you really want him on kibble maybe try something like Fish 4 Dogs. Or is keeping him on Chappie an option?


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

YAYYYYYYYY!   

I would stick on wet Chappie for a good while before even starting to consider kibble, to give time for his insides to heal and regain resilience. Like how @Mum2Heidi was saying by moving too fast shooting yourself in the foot a bit.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I’m so pleased for you. Chappie is a godsend in lots of tummy problems. Been recommended by vets for decades and in some cases is literally all a dog can eat - without Chappie they wouldn’t survive.
(Unfortunately something in it made Heidi itch but it sorted her tum).

I would stick to your current regime for a few months and possibly consider feeding Chappie long term.
I found what suits Heidi and stuck with it. I’m able to add a bit of variety with treats but changing her food isn’t an option.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thought I would update all those who have been on Paxo-poo-watch with us...

We have been firm in the poo department since the Great Chappie Switch of 5 November. We had one questionable deposit which I can’t explain but it was by far the exception so perhaps he snaffled something on a walk.

As his weight is still low and I wanted to rule out anything else, we went back to the vet for tests. Blood tests were all fine and we’re waiting on poo test results. I don’t expect to find anything but just wanted to be sure for peace of mind.

Whether it’s the Chappie or his guts just needed time to recover, I don’t know, but we’re sticking with chappie and bionic biotics for now.

Thanks once again to everyone who took time to help me and the little nugget of spanielness.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Pricivius said:


> Thought I would update all those who have been on Paxo-poo-watch with us...
> 
> We have been firm in the poo department since the Great Chappie Switch of 5 November. We had one questionable deposit which I can't explain but it was by far the exception so perhaps he snaffled something on a walk.
> 
> ...


That sounds like good news. Both of mine have sensitive tums. One cant really eat chappie though I do give her a bit most days but the other one is 100 percent ok on chappie. She can also cope with a small amount of butchers chicken and tripe and a bit of Burns chicken and brown rice dry food. The chappie is what sorted her though.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Pricivius said:


> We have been firm in the poo department since the Great Chappie Switch of 5 November


Happy poo dance, happy poo dance! And - don't you just love that strangers on the web say things like that out loud?


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Oh what funny timing - I've just been hanging up washing thinking "hmm I wonder how Paxo is doing, I should bump up the thread and ask", and I come here and there's an update waiting for me


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Excellent news!!!
Good old Chappie does its stuff once again


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Another update. 

This morning’s first offering was perfect for the first 80% and then went soft. Unusual as the morning deliveries are usually solid. Then the second morning contribution was almost liquid.

This lunchtime, more of the same, or actually, worse - liquid.

Whilst I don’t think he snaffled anything on yesterday’s walks, it’s always possible. He seems so hungry and he does pick stuff up to eat. Usually he lets me take it off him, but I may have missed a quick snack. We certainly haven’t given him anything but chappie and baked chappie (as treats).

The results of the poo sample are not back from the vet yet - hopefully we will have answers by Monday. I really didn’t expect there to be anything, but now I don’t know - he’s gone from solid to liquid so quickly and he can’t have snaffled much of anything...

One other point, whilst I think of anything that might mean anything, when he gets up from sleeping, he often seems to regurgitate food and then swallow it back down. Sometimes it has actually come out as a little bit of sick. Probably nothing, but including it for the record! He also lives with 2 cats but doesn’t get their food or go near their litter trays.

Here’s hoping this is just a blip and we are back to solid tomorrow morning.:Sorry


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

After a few days of softness, we’re back to solid this morning (Sunday). So that’s a relief. I can only think he snaffled something, but it’s got to be good that his guts bounced back pretty quickly.

His weight remains an issue, but chappie is so bulky I can’t really increase quantities - he’s getting more than the tin suggests already. Poor little nugget.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Pricivius said:


> After a few days of softness, we're back to solid this morning (Sunday). So that's a relief. I can only think he snaffled something, but it's got to be good that his guts bounced back pretty quickly.
> 
> His weight remains an issue, but chappie is so bulky I can't really increase quantities - he's getting more than the tin suggests already. Poor little nugget.


That's very positive news. Definitely sounds like tum is gaining resilience.
Be patient a while longer. Once tum is firing on all cylinders weight may increase.
I think you're already dividing his Chappie over more meals than he used to have but if not less bulk may help with more absorption,


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Are they checking for B12 deficiency?


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## fffd (Apr 17, 2020)

Pricivius - have you taken a stool sample to the vet? This sounds suspiciously like Giardia or maybe campylobacter. Both are commonly seen in rescue dogs, particularly those who have been in kennels. They are treatable but it can take some time to reverse the inflammation. The other thing is that a good canine specific probiotic such as YuDigest might help. However, with colitis medication from the vet may be required to get it under control.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks, everyone.

He is getting four meals a day so hopefully absorbing as much as he can.

His poo sample is with the vet - the results will be available over the next couple of days.

The vet didn’t mention a vitamin b12 problem after his blood test results, but I’ll double check. He is not lethargic and still runs around like a loony so I would be surprised, but worth checking.

Also, he gets bionic biotics with his meals.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Everything crossed for good test results.
Best to get it checked just in case,


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Pricivius said:


> The vet didn't mention a vitamin b12 problem after his blood test results, but I'll double check. He is not lethargic and still runs around like a loony so I would be surprised, but worth checking.


B12 affects absorption of food and can be as a result or cause of malabsorption
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=12886&catId=57090&id=7054721


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So the poo results are in and he’s all clear. We checked for giardia, campylobacter and some others with a 3 day sample.

The vet is calling back later (she left a voicemail with the good news) to discuss next steps so I will check his B12 with her then.

So good news that there are no nasties to treat, but this points to it being a dietary sensitivity of some description.

thanks again for everyone’s support...


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## fffd (Apr 17, 2020)

That's very good news. In view of the fact that you think this is a food sensitivity it would be advantageous to conduct an elimination trial. This can take some time but in the long run it will pay dividends. Swapping and changing food in the hope of finding something suitable is not always helpful, especially when the gut is already impaired. In fact it's probably the worst time to change food.

Your vet can assist you with an elimination trial or there is plenty of information on the Internet. There is a video about Inflammatory Bowel Disease on the My Pet Nutritionist Facebook page and it is well worth watching. She recommends that dry food should be avoided. She also doesn't recommend raw while the gut is inflamed as the dog's ability to handle bacteria will be impaired.

She believes that fresh cooked food is preferable but this does need to be done properly because supplements are needed. If you are inclined to try home cooking, this could be done as the start of an elimination trial, especially with a novel protein such as goat, horse or anything else that the dog has never had before. She has recipes on her website. VetChef and We Cook for Dogs also has them too. Don't be tempted to look on YouTube because some are not balanced. There are very few commercial fresh cooked food companies. The one that would probably be suitable for you is Different Dog but it can be costly, depending on the size of the dog. Facebook has a number of home cooking for dogs groups.

Edit: There is information about elimination diets here.
Also, grain free foods are popular at the moment but some contain pea derivatives and white potato which can be a problem for some dogs.
The B12 deficiency could be due to malabsorption and might improve once you have your dog on a suitable diet.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Great news. 
Ive got everything crossed it’s a very sensitive tum brought on by the ongoing upset and changes of food trying to sort it . Hopefully Chappie will continue to work it’s wonders with no snaffling when you aren’t looking.
You can’t be too careful and checking out B12 is a good call. 
.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

This dog continues to confuse me!

So his offerings have been great in the morning, without fail. Firm and solid. Then things get softer throughout the day. Usually not to a worrisome degree, but then yesterday he was producing liquid deposits by 19.00. Oh dear. My heart sank.

Then this morning, he’s back to solid. So did he snaffle something that had a catastrophic impact, but then recovered very quickly? Or there’s a possibility it was stress-related as he ripped a dew claw yesterday lunchtime?

We went to the vet to sort out the dew claw and he’s lost 0.2kg so I’m still not getting any weight on him. Ver suggested we wait it out a couple more weeks before we do any other tests, seeing as he has been improving so far. On we go...


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I’m sorry he’s throwing you more curved balls but I’d definitely go with the vet and give it a bit more time.

My only thought and it’s rock/hard place scenario - is there any chance you have increased his food with the weight issue playing on your mind. Unless you weigh it, it’s easy to get carried away unwittingly. Result could be looser pooh as the day goes on.

Could you try cutting his food back for a couple of days just to see? If he absorbs more nutrients by digesting less food properly the weight will go on and at least you’ll know. You could add another meal so he has smaller amounts but possibly not as effective if overfeeding is the problem.

Is he still having bionic Biotics?


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks, Mum2Heidi. Yes, we probably have increased his allowance as he is just so thin and so hungry. It’s very hard when gems scavenging, as this also sets us back. I have reduced portions for the last couple of days, and today he was loose again! Not liquid but not good.

We switched from biotic bionics to yudigest - for ease, really. Maybe we should switch back? Would you keep using it forever? I guess if he needs it, go with it?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Pricivius said:


> This dog continues to confuse me!
> 
> So his offerings have been great in the morning, without fail. Firm and solid. Then things get softer throughout the day. Usually not to a worrisome degree, but then yesterday he was producing liquid deposits by 19.00. Oh dear. My heart sank.
> 
> ...


The starting off firm and getting progressively softer and runnier during the day is not uncommon. One of mine does it and so does a friend's dog. Mine has been diagnosed with pancreatitis and is much improved on a low fat diet but it still happens. My friend's dog is much better on a change of food too.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Pricivius said:


> Thanks, Mum2Heidi. Yes, we probably have increased his allowance as he is just so thin and so hungry. It's very hard when gems scavenging, as this also sets us back. I have reduced portions for the last couple of days, and today he was loose again! Not liquid but not good.
> 
> We switched from biotic bionics to yudigest - for ease, really. Maybe we should switch back? Would you keep using it forever? I guess if he needs it, go with it?


I feel for you. It's very hard when their tums are so sensitive. The slightest change will upset it and in turn it becomes more sensitive. The increase in food won't have helped and as far as I'm aware yudigest is different to bionic Biotics. Another change. As mentioned earlier I found Yudigest better for sickness. BB for pooh. 
I would go back to BB if you had success and keep it going for a good few months. You shouldn't need to use it forever but the longer you go on settling and unsettling tum the longer you will need to use it. Imagine it as a wound healing. Every change opens the wound. Continuity keeps it healing. 
I keep a pouch of BB i the cupboard just incase and give it to Heidi to boost her gut health if it gets close to date.

I understand the weight issue but if you can get him digesting small amounts of food well, he'll get more from it than a bulk going straight through and probably feel less hungry.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

A couple of thoughts came up reading through this - giardia and pancreatitis. You've checked for the former and all clear, but has the latter been checked for? It's a specific blood test but I'd be surprised if your vet hadnt already thought of it.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks, everyone.

So back to BB and let’s see what he does next...

The vet has said to give it another couple of weeks and if we cannot get him stable and putting weight back on, we’ll do some more tests.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I have every confidence you will get there. Baby steps. Slowly slowly catchy monkey
When you have progress build on it v slowly.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So... his morning poo is a delight. Firm, brown, pickupable. I feel like framing it.

Then it’s often down hill, but I appreciate this is not unusual. Does this tell us anything going forwards? If his morning poo stays solid when we start adding in a kibble, would that mean he is tolerating whatever we add? Presumably so?


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I’d want every pooh solid for a few days before I make any changes - sorry


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's been 6 days. Do not add anything else for at least another 14 days, Longer if needed.
The lining of the stomach has to heal before it can deal with the food properly


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks all. If we’re waiting for all poos to be as good as the morning poo - he’s doing 3 or 4 every day - then I think we’re in for a long wait. I can count the number of times his poos have been as solid in the evening as they were in the morning on one hand in the last 6 weeks. Do we need to move off the Chappie now and find something else as it’s not getting every-poo solidity?

The latest development is grass eating. I know this is not really an issue, but it’s not something he has done before yet now, here we are. We are also dealing with scavenging as the local community are intent on throwing bread out for the birds and abandoning pizza with alarming regularity.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Jack does 2 poos on his morning walk and the second is always much softer so I wouldn’t expect them all to be of the same “quality” as the day progresses anyway.

If he’s scavenging, that won’t be helping so I would take steps to prevent that tbh.

Keep him on a lead or muzzle train him.

I’d carry on with just the Chappie for now rather than risk going backwards.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

On yesterday’s afternoon walk, we dodged a slice of bread, two separate and distinct pools of vomit, a discarded casserole and a lamb shank bone. It’s ridiculous the amount of food abandoned around here. We found someone’s entire Christmas dinner which had clearly been hurled off a balcony on Christmas Day.

The difficulty with muzzle training is I cannot give him anything high value to get him to like a muzzle. He’s not going to put up with a muzzle for chappie! This is so very difficult.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Pricivius said:


> We found someone's entire Christmas dinner which had clearly been hurled off a balcony on Christmas Day.


I wonder if that was the cause, or the result, of a massive Christmas day fight!


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> I wonder if that was the cause, or the result, of a massive Christmas day fight!


By Boxing Day, a dozen long-stemmed white roses were lying beneath the balcony so you're probably right!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Pricivius said:


> By Boxing Day, a dozen long-stemmed white roses were lying beneath the balcony so you're probably right!


Apparently apology not accepted!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Pricivius said:


> On yesterday's afternoon walk, we dodged a slice of bread, two separate and distinct pools of vomit, a discarded casserole and a lamb shank bone. It's ridiculous the amount of food abandoned around here. We found someone's entire Christmas dinner which had clearly been hurled off a balcony on Christmas Day.
> 
> The difficulty with muzzle training is I cannot give him anything high value to get him to like a muzzle. He's not going to put up with a muzzle for chappie! This is so very difficult.


How's it going on the Chappie now?
Have you tried baking Chappie for treats?


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

rona said:


> How's it going on the Chappie now?
> Have you tried baking Chappie for treats?


His morning deposit is perfect, and then his later offerings deteriorate throughout the day. Not to liquid - but soft and lighter in colour. We have baked chappie as treats and he will eat them, but he's not excited by them. He's hungry and not yet putting on weight, although he hasn't lost any more.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Chappie poo is often soft but formed. As long as it gets no worse than that, hoping the weight starts going on soon.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So... by way of an update, there have been a couple of blips, but largely our deposits have been perfect first thing with a little deterioration in colour and texture throughout the day. There is just so much of it! It genuinely feels like more comes out than goes in. And he’s only little!

There was a small weight gain and then a loss, but it’s basically static. He needs at least a kilo, if not two.

Scavenging has reduced a little since I started giving him breakfast earlier. I was taking him out first thing in case he needed to toilet urgently, but then he was attacked (again) by the neighbour’s offlead dog and refused to go out. Turns out he’s not so desperate in the morning after all. So I now feed him breakfast first thing, and then take him out 45 minutes later for a morning stroll and empty. He seems less desperate to find food now and eat anything he can find, which is good.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Am extremely late to the party on this one, its just when you say there are copious amounts of poo which well there can be with some foods with some dogs.. Are they large. You probably wouldn't know as he's a rescue..

It's just that if you are doing everything right for weight gain and as to not over feed... So feed little and often. 3/4 meals a day. That type of thing. I am wondering if anyone has mentioned EPI to you, as he's not gaining weight really, and we'll large poo is a symptom too.

Of course it might just be him and he is settled on the chappie. I had a hard time with my lurcher get weight on her, there was sighthound thin, then her. It wasn't a particularly good look. However I just found she did better with grains in her food.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Good news. Chappie does produce a lot of poo, but if it's firm................

Sometime in the distant future, if the tum settles, you may be able to try small quantities of other foods. After caring for several dogs with sensitive tums, I found Pets @ Home step up to naturals seemed to be ok, just for treats.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks for your advice.

His food is spread out from 8am to 11pm - into 3 lots, with baked chappie as treats in between and a small kong for bedtime.

I’ll give him a little longer to get the weight on, and then we’ll go back to the vet as EPI looks like a maybe...

thanks again


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

By way of an update, we were back at the vet this morning for a blood test for EPI. His poos are huge and start off firm but more often than not deteriorate significantly to porridge, and sometimes liquid. He goes at least 4 times a day, sometimes 10. He’s not putting on weight, but his appetite is ravenous. And he is an anxious boy. As has been pointed out above (thank you) he’s fitting a lot of the pointers for EPI so that was the logical next step if things didn’t improve enough.

I’ll update when we have the results. Also testing B12 and folate levels alongside the TLI for EPI - the full EPI package!

thanks again for everyone’s support and advice.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Fingers crossed you get some answers @Pricivius


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks for the update.
Hope you can soon get some answers and a way forward.
In the meantime, you mention he is an anxious dog. That could have an effect on his tummy.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks for the update, it did sound a bit like EPI. If the vets are happy to investigate then it's definitely worth looking into it.

If he's low in B12 that might help too having an injection or several. Obviously his digestive system is working overtime, and there must be some malabsorption going on.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So, the results are in and it’s not EPI. His B12 is 546 (anything below 275 is sub normal). His cTLI is 32.6 (it would need to be below 5 to indicate EPI). His Folate level is 7.78, whereas normal is 8.2 to 13.5, so slightly low.

The pathologist’s notes suggest a possibility of small intestine disease/malabsorption from the slightly low folate level, and propose folic acid supplementation.

Output continues to be huge and deteriorates to porridge or sometimes liquid over the course of 4,5,6 offerings during the day. Still feels like I’m putting in less than he’s sending out.

I haven’t spoken to the vet and will need to find a new one as it appears we have irreconcilable differences over what is an acceptable length of time to sit on test results without calling me to discuss.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Definitely some malabsorption so I guess that's going to be classed as IBD... Am presuming with malabsorption there is some damage to the small intestine, and possibly been going on a while.

What could help is like asking how long is a piece of string to be honest.

See what the vet suggests, when you discuss it whether this is the new one or old.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Just hunted out a few old threads
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/b12-and-diet.457980/#post-1065000027

Sounds like it may be easy to sort if it's not an indication of something else, but with those levels I would hardly think so. Just a very bad tummy upset hopefully


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks for the link - I’ve had a read through.

Just as an aside, he doesn’t have bad wind at all. I think he’s passed noticeable wind 3 times since September so absolutely minimal.


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## fffd (Apr 17, 2020)

Pricivius - earlier in the thread I mentioned an elimination diet. Did you give it any thought? If you want to know more, there is a video about this here. It takes some time to conduct an elimination trial but it can pay dividends. The advice and support of a qualified canine nutritionist could be helpful.

A good diet can boost the dog's immune system and general health. Unfortunately the ingredients are not clear in Chappie products. It contains cereals and some dogs cannot tolerate them. It is also not certified as carrageenan free. Wet food review. Dry Chappie has an even poorer nutritional rating.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks - I did take a look at the video but I couldn’t get beyond the first few minutes. I will go to the website and read up on it as that may be more palatable.

Thanks again


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## Nicola234 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hi have you tried raw for your boy?


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## fffd (Apr 17, 2020)

> Quote Pricivius: Thanks - I did take a look at the video but I couldn't get beyond the first few minutes. I will go to the website and read up on it as that may be more palatable.


I take your point - some of the discussion is complex. Closer to the end she talks about the process of conducting an elimination trial. It is easier if you have the advice and support of a canine nutritionist. This will incur additional cost, at least at first but has the potential of saving money in the long run if it helps your dog. If your vet has an interest in nutrition he or she will be able to help but they will probably suggest beginning with a hydrolyzed protein dry food. IMHO fresh cooked food would be better. A nutritionist can provide the correct, balanced recipes.

There is a more straightforward description of elimination diets here. Having reading through your thread, it seems to me that this is a logical step to take as you have had many investigations but your dog is not showing signs of any lasting improvement.

If you feel that you can conduct an elimination trial yourself but want to use commercial food you need to look for something with a simple recipe, avoiding obvious allergens such as wheat, beef, chicken. It is best not to use dry food. Towards the end of the aforementioned video Alison suggests two suitable foods and these are Naturavetal and MeatLove. They have a range which includes novel proteins such as hare, goat and horse.

I would advise against raw food just now because your dog has a compromised digestive system and might not be able to cope with the bacteria. The gut needs to repair itself before introducing raw food.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

@Pricivius the easiest way to see if food is a problem is to use a hydrolysed food. You can do an elimination diet far easier as mentioned above.

@fffd why would you use a heavily opinion website ie all about dog food to say chappie isn't a good food because of ingredients? Yes it's one of those that might chop and change ingredients but honestly, it usually works wonders for many dogs with upset stomachs. I think @rona can definitely agree with this

Dogs are scavengers by nature, and regardless can eat raw no problem. Of course a dogs digestive system slightly not working or not could still digest raw no problem. However raw diets need to be done properly and require research. I wouldn't worry about changing to that. Ideally I wouldn't advise changing to any but if it is caused by food, then you would use hydrolysed food. See if there is any difference. Then you have a choice. Keep on hydrolysed food or do an elimination diet.


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## fffd (Apr 17, 2020)

@lullabydream - there is much anecdotal evidence that Chappie works for some dogs. However, the first thing to look for when choosing dog food is a clear ingredient list. This is particularly important with IBD/IBS where intolerance is suspected. The problem with Chappie is that it's not possible to know what the food contains. The meat derivatives could be perfectly good but equally they could be not so good. The same with vegetable derivatives and cereals. The review/nutritional rating on the linked website has relevant information about the ingredients. The rating is calculated by a computer algorithm so it is not a matter of an individual's opinion.

Hydrolysed protein dog food can be useful in cases such as the OP's dog. Unfortunately it is highly processed, so much so that vitamins and minerals have to be added. It also doesn't necessarily solve the problem of dogs that have difficulty tolerating storage mites. It is usually used as the basis of an elimination diet and if it works it gives the gut time to repair itself. Arguably, at some point it is preferable to feed a more nutritious, digestible and varied diet long term.

You are right about scavenging but it is this behaviour that frequently causes digestive problems so it is up to the owner to prevent it if possible, especially with dogs that have a history of inflammatory bowel disease.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

fffd said:


> The problem with Chappie is that it's not possible to know what the food contains. The meat derivatives could be perfectly good but equally they could be not so good.


As it could in any food when dealing with IBD. We even tried virtually everything including veterinary foods. If it doesn't agree with your dog, then no matter how "good" it is, it's no good for your dog.
Of course Chappie isn't the food for every dog with a tummy problem, but I suspect, you won't find many dog owners on here without a tin in their cupboard.
Anecdotal it may be, but hugely respected.
I've used Chappie tins for over 50 years, as have many of my friends, not usually as the main food but either part of or for upset tums.

However, it was the only food for years that our Chessie could eat due to IBD, and it saved his life. After stabilizing him, he lived a very active and relatively healthy life on Chappie for a further 9 years until he was 13


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Chappie is a life saver. I have seen dogs with pancreatitis thrive on it. Both my two have problems, one is great on chappie, what a difference it has made to her, and the other one has pancreatitis but unfortunately chappie does not agree with her so she is on boiled brown rice with boiled turkey breast mince and a spoonful of naturo. Not the best balanced diet but it works for her.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

fffd said:


> @lullabydream - there is much anecdotal evidence that Chappie works for some dogs. However, the first thing to look for when choosing dog food is a clear ingredient list. This is particularly important with IBD/IBS where intolerance is suspected. The problem with Chappie is that it's not possible to know what the food contains. The meat derivatives could be perfectly good but equally they could be not so good. The same with vegetable derivatives and cereals. The review/nutritional rating on the linked website has relevant information about the ingredients. The rating is calculated by a computer algorithm so it is not a matter of an individual's opinion.
> 
> Hydrolysed protein dog food can be useful in cases such as the OP's dog. Unfortunately it is highly processed, so much so that vitamins and minerals have to be added. It also doesn't necessarily solve the problem of dogs that have difficulty tolerating storage mites. It is usually used as the basis of an elimination diet and if it works it gives the gut time to repair itself. Arguably, at some point it is preferable to feed a more nutritious, digestible and varied diet long term.
> 
> You are right about scavenging but it is this behaviour that frequently causes digestive problems so it is up to the owner to prevent it if possible, especially with dogs that have a history of inflammatory bowel disease.


Digestive problems do not necessarily mean food. Ffs there is so much that can go on with a digestive system which isn't related to food. People often think food but it's really unwise to. You may strike lucky.

Complete and utter poppycock over hydrolysed food for dogs. You do realise all dog food has to meet standards for it to be described as food for dog. Which means minimum requirements. All the hydrolysed food I know are sold as complete which means they are complete so no they should be sufficient to feed any dog for whatever reason you choose. Could be you work at a pet shop and it's the best discount food you could buy, no other reason. If a food says complete it's complete. Some hydrolysed foods are under the prescription diet, some not so and hydrolysed proteins are appearing more and more anyway in foods as standard anyway.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

If Chappie has been the best you've tried, I'd avoid changing unless you really have to. It's track record speaks for itself. Changing food puts further strain on a sensitive tum.
Did you continue with Bionic Biotics? 
Yudigest or Fortiflora may be worth a try if its no longer helping. Protexin products are also very good.(they will advise you which one they think most suitable if you ask.) 
I'd be inclined to boost his tum health via supplement over changing food.

If you decide to try hydrolysed in future, this is a reasonable priced brand. https://www.workinghprs.co.uk/worki...itch-eeze-and-no-added-grain-working-dog-15kg
They've changed the name to itch eeze but you will see hydrolysed protein in the description. Someone here uses it but I can remember who. 
I fed their duck and potato kibble years ago and can vouch for the company.

Sorry, I know it's even more to think about but often points from various posts help you find a way forward.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Pricivius said:


> The pathologist's notes suggest a possibility of small intestine disease/malabsorption from the slightly low folate level, and propose folic acid supplementation.


Any improvement yet?


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Getting him registered with a new vet and then waiting on a phone appointment, to be honest. I wasn’t sure whether to give him a folic acid supplement without vet advice - I have bought some...


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Pricivius said:


> Getting him registered with a new vet and then waiting on a phone appointment, to be honest. I wasn't sure whether to give him a folic acid supplement without vet advice - I have bought some...


Personally I would wait advice. I don't think too much folic acid is a bad thing, but I don't know. Plus unlike humans, dogs are more likely to have balanced diets with feeding complete foods daily.

Fingers crossed for you


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Time for an update - it’s largely positive...

Whilst Chappie was an improvement, he was producing huge amounts and the second, third and fourth output of the day (sometimes up to 7) deteriorated in consistency, sometimes considerably. And he lost another half a kilo. So off to the new vets.

They reviewed everything we had done so far and decided to treat for IBD (without a scan or formal diagnosis). So prescription diet with hydrolysed protein - we went for Hills z/d as it comes in wet and dry. We also continued to supplement folic acid.

He’s been on it for about 6 weeks now. Output is less, usually twice a day but sometimes 3 times and sometimes even once. About 40% of the time, both outputs are solid. 55% are where the second/third deteriorates. The final 5% are decidedly dodgy - mucus and sometimes down to fluid. At no point have we had emergency middle of the night diarrhoea. But still not where I would want to be in an ideal world.

On the plus side, he loves the food and wolfs it down. He has more energy and has put on a kilo. We’ll be back to the vets in a week or two to review progress and see where to go from here.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

And another update from us! Things deteriorated to the point where we did have urgent diarrhoea, followed by passing blood and mucous and sickness. So the vet suggested antibiotics, which had no impact, and then steroids, which did nothing.

We weaned him off the steroids and then - in a last throw of the dice before the ultrasound and biopsy - we tried a different antibiotic. Almost instant improvement. Output is always solid in the morning, is a darker, more normal colour and the second output of the day, whilst softer, is pick-up-able without leaving residue. So surgery is cancelled for now and it’s a watching brief to see how he does when the course of antibiotics ends. He’s still on Hills z/d only, no treats or sneaky goodies, but he’s put on 1.5 kilos. If things stay as they are, I’ll be happy. Here’s hoping…


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