# The ban is now in force in france



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

no one is allowed to wear any face coverings as from today if anyone does its a fine of £130.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Two women have already been arrested...but for protesting without permission...not because they were still covered up.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

yes i heard that as well


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I dont think it will stop them from wearing it tbo ..........and even if fined will they pay ? if not its just more drain on resources so really what are they gaining ?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

say that..if anyone can wear anything that cover face in public..then may wear it to work ..and say i would not like to be arrested by a masked policeman..or have my kids taught by faceless teacher ..or have faceless consultant...I was brought up in culture where you relay on facial expressions..I do not agree that women are and women onl are wearing them...
...and in our society women are equal with men..women work...so yes I see what is to be gained..no arguments whether you can wear face cover to work, school etc..driving...going to the doctor...in many places you use your ID card or E 111 card..but what the use if your face is covered..anyone can use any card then?..what the use of CCTV on cashpoints etc...
I believe that being recognised by your face is important for many good reasons...I would feel a bit frighten if I had to live in place where all ppl were masks...

My dog is scared of masks too...truly is..


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Good, hope Oz follows suit


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

hope the uk follow too...whats the chances?!?!xx


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

I respect peoples religions, but must admit theres quite a few women wear the full face thing around where I work and I do find it a bit intimidating


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

I totally agree with it, im not a fan of the frence but they cetainly know what they are doing. 

We arnt allowed to go into a shop with a helmet on etc we have to have our faces showing so why should it be any different for them. we should all be treated equally and i think we too should do the same as the frence and ban it. 

I think we do enough over here considering we are a christian country by building mosques etc we would never get them to build a church.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

If I go to Saudi Arabia, I can be arrested if I go out in public wearing shorts or for holding my husbands hand because these things are unacceptable there. But WE are expected to put up with THEIR dress code & beliefs when they are in OUR country even though WE do not agree with the covering of the face and many of us find it to be quite threatening. :incazzato: :cursing:

I'm with France on this one and I just wish the UK had the cajones to follow suit......


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

We went to france a lot a few years ago and spoke to a lot of french people and they couldnt believe what we put up with in this country, the sueing culture we have being one of them i once asked them about the state of some of the pavements and the drops at the side of the roads and they said no one would think about sueing, i said the brits would have a field day they said well cant they watch where they are putting their feet or if their car goes down the drop, what? they should be steering/keeping the car on the road he wasnt been funny or insulting, he just didnt get why someone should be responsible for someone else not watching where they were going. Thinking about it arnt they right? i think so. We seem to be conditioned in this country for taking responsiblity for other people actions therefore people are getting less responsible for themselves.

So really it doesnt suprise me that they have got this ban, they wont tolerate all the rubbish or the excuses we do, when in their country do as they do or leave, we need to adopt this no nonsense attitude but i cant help thinking we have let it go way too far.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

The french government obviously have bigger balls then the british government! But you didn't need me to tell you that did ya now?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> The french government obviously have bigger balls then the british government! But you didn't need me to tell you that did ya now?


Your right there.

Its a wonderful place, certainly a country i could live in, no messing no nonsense counrty, suits me.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> The french government obviously have bigger balls then the british government! But you didn't need me to tell you that did ya now?


Australia better show some balls too, am proud of the French gov, shame cant say the same for my own


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't like the Bhurka nor what it seems to represent but some one said this to me today... How would you feel if you were forced to go out topless, and were threatened with arrest for not doing so... It is a thing of modesty to the woman who wear it by choice... I don't agree, but had not seen it that way...she only wears a scarve but it was interesting to hear a different view point...


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> I don't like the Bhurka nor what it seems to represent but some one said this to me today... How would you feel if you were forced to go out topless, and where threatened with arrest for not doing so... It is a thing of modesty to woman who wear it by choice... I don't agree but had not seen it that way...she only wears a scarve but it was interesting to hear a different view point...


No comparison  flashing ya rude bits is in a diff category to your face ffs. If we talked out of our ass that would be uncovered am sure but we dont so its covered. Seriously ridiculous statement.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> I don't like the Bhurka nor what it seems to represent but some one said this to me today... How would you feel if you were forced to go out topless, and were threatened with arrest for not doing so... It is a thing of modesty to the woman who wear it by choice... I don't agree, but had not seen it that way...she only wears a scarve but it was interesting to hear a different view point...


The headscarfs I have no problem with! As I guess others don't - it is the full face coverings that un nerve many!

And looking at it from the other side how would everyone feel if we allowed naturists to walk round naked? now why do I feel I should NOT have asked that!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I can't understand how they say its part of their religion,its not.Funny how some people use religion for their own ends.*


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> I did not say that was my view, just what was said to me....


aw nah I knew that xx sorry, I should have noted that


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

where did my post go?? I am such a techno phobic!!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

real story..we have problems here with non EU visitors using other ppl health cards to obtain health care..although anybody can go to the hospital to emergency and will be treated..but they try to use it to get apps with consultants , hospital beds, or leave disabled old peole in our care...and yes,,face cover helps...and the problem is big enough for gov to try to revise the whole system!...

we are few miles from North Africa by the way..


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi, I've often wondered..........how can you be sure that it's a woman and not a known criminal under a bhurka?,
how does a doctor manage when presented with someone wearing a bhurka?
I think sometimes that some people like to use religion to their own ends!. wayne,


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Just one more victory in a world becoming more and more paranoid with itself as each day passes. 
9/11 has a lot to answer for and yet it still cannot answer any of the questions initially asked.

Whether you like it or not the ban is a form of Racism. 
It's simply the orchestrated and systematic persecution of one race of people by another race! :glare:


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I've got to be honest and say that the full face coverings frighten me. So much communication is lost when you can't see some one's facial responses to what your'e saying, and vice vesa.It's also scary, as if they have to hide who they are.
We have gone way over the top in this country, it's no wonder the BNP and other extremists are getting more members. 
Other countries would not have tolerated the things we have.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Just one more victory in a world becoming more and more paranoid with itself as each day passes.
> 9/11 has a lot to answer for and yet it still cannot answer any of the questions initially asked.
> 
> Whether you like it or not the ban is a form of Racism.
> It's simply the orchestrated and systematic persecution of one race of people by another race! :glare:


Can't quiet work out how it can be judged a form of Racism myself!
Correct me if I am wrong - but is it not the religion that 'some' claim their right to wear the burqa. So are we saying this is racism against a religion then? A bit like a Christian not be able to wear a cross eh? A form of racism that will always exsist as long a we have holes in our bums!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Your right there.
> 
> Its a wonderful place, certainly a country i could live in, no messing no nonsense counrty, suits me.


Plenty of red tape and problems too. I know lots of Brits in France desperate to come back  no way I'd live there I know so many French who loathe their system too...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Just one more victory in a world becoming more and more paranoid with itself as each day passes.
> 9/11 has a lot to answer for and yet it still cannot answer any of the questions initially asked.
> 
> Whether you like it or not the ban is a form of Racism.
> It's simply the orchestrated and systematic persecution of one race of people by another race! :glare:


*That can't be true.Anyone can take up the "religion" no matter where they were born,so how can race be an issue? Also as i said earlier the burqa/burka is personal choice and has NOTHING to do with the religion.
In this country people cannot go into shops wearing crash helmets or balaclavas,so whats the difference?*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Just one more victory in a world becoming more and more paranoid with itself as each day passes.
> 9/11 has a lot to answer for and yet it still cannot answer any of the questions initially asked.
> 
> Whether you like it or not the ban is a form of Racism.
> It's simply the orchestrated and systematic persecution of one race of people by another race! :glare:


I disagree there, we are not asking them to do something that we dont have to do, we have to remove face coverings for security reasons, security is very important to the country we live in and the country they now live in, they are happy to come in and take what this country has to offer which is a damsight more than their country has, so i think they need to give something back and run with some of our rules.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

GoldenShadow said:


> Plenty of red tape and problems too. I know lots of Brits in France desperate to come back  no way I'd live there I know so many French who loathe their system too...


And i can imagine some brits not fitting in, because as i said its a no nonsense country, you have take responsibility for your own actions, work for whatever you want out of life and lets face it brits arnt used to all that malarky.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> And i can imagine some brits not fitting in, because as i said its a no nonsense country, you have take responsibility for your own actions, work for whatever you want out of life and lets face it brits arnt used to all that malarky.


I'm not talking about people like that, but normal people. People I know moved there to be able to have horses on their own land sort of thing and set up their own business. Don't know a single one of them who's business has worked out well and they regularly get buggered over by the tax office, on one forum I use someone has to pay back €7000 just like that 

It screams of problems with bureaucracy which doesn't always lead to a great system. One person has just left and gone to Canada and she's thrilled to be out of there, she's thirty something and lived there since she was 11. I know more like that than I do who like it tbh.

Has the whole burka been banned everywhere or just in certain places?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Just one more victory in a world becoming more and more paranoid with itself as each day passes.
> 9/11 has a lot to answer for and yet it still cannot answer any of the questions initially asked.
> 
> Whether you like it or not the ban is a form of Racism.
> It's simply the orchestrated and systematic persecution of one race of people by another race! :glare:


We can walk into one of our churches for 1 example wearing anything we choose if we lived in their countries we would have to cover up, thats respect for the rules of their country and religion, i would not for 1 minute say that it was racist against us.
What annoys me is that they come over here for a better life and ime in no doubt that it is because lets face it where else can they go and get free housing,money from the state each week and live a in relatively safe country(compared to theirs). They are very forward in saying i was born here so technically ime british when it for their own ends, sorry they cant have it all ways.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

GoldenShadow said:


> I'm not talking about people like that, but normal people. People I know moved there to be able to have horses on their own land sort of thing and set up their own business. Don't know a single one of them who's business has worked out well and they regularly get buggered over by the tax office, on one forum I use someone has to pay back 7000 just like that
> 
> It screams of problems with bureaucracy which doesn't always lead to a great system. One person has just left and gone to Canada and she's thrilled to be out of there, she's thirty something and lived there since she was 11. I know more like that than I do who like it tbh.
> 
> Has the whole burka been banned everywhere or just in certain places?


France and the netherlands i think.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> We can walk into one of our churches for 1 example wearing anything we choose if we lived in their countries we would have to cover up, thats respect for the rules of their country and religion, i would not for 1 minute say that it was racist against us.
> What annoys me is that they come over here for a better life and ime in no doubt that it is because lets face it where else can they go and get free housing,money from the state each week and live a in relatively safe country(compared to theirs). They are very forward in saying i was born here so technically ime british when it for their own ends, sorry they cant have it all ways.


Don't forget the National Health!


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## jessiegirl (Apr 24, 2009)

good i hope they do the ban here too.

these muslims, islamics whatever always want their own way!

if i went to their country i wouldnt be allowed to wear a bikini cos thats the rule in their country- fine. 

so dont come over here with your burkas claiming its your religeon when britain is a christian country- we dont do that here!! 

religeon got a lot to answer for!!!


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> *If we talked out of our ass that would be uncovered am sure but we dont so its covered*.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh........ *THAT* explains John Prescott.......!!!!!!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Don't forget the National Health!


Oh yes the national health, they have good deal here ime afraid, i wonder how many have come over here and actuall gone back home, not many i would guess.
I have to say i would be very wary and scared for that matter(and ime not easily scared) if i was in a crowded tube station/train station or the like and there were muslims with covered faces and thats not jumping to conclusions or being racist things have happened that we will never forget. 
Some muslims and i say some because ime aware its not all, have no respect for their own lives or that of anyone elses.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

jessiegirl said:


> good i hope they do the ban here too.
> 
> these muslims, islamics whatever always want their own way!
> 
> ...


What about Muslims who were born here?

'Always want it their own way'??  Oh please... read something other than The Daily Mail or The Sun


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

jessiegirl said:


> religeon got a lot to answer for!!!


If you look everyone has been saying the face part of the burka is not even religious so I don't know what your rabbiting on about.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> What about Muslims who were born here?
> 
> 'Always want it their own way'??  Oh please... read something other than The Daily Mail or The Sun


It isnt about what we read in the papers i havnt read a newspaper in years, it what we see, what we see everyday, many,many muslims do not ike us and will never associate with us, i dont know where you live but not far from me(sheffield) has a huge asian.muslim community and that what they have done created their own community and pushed out british people that have lived and owned homes in that particular community all their lives, they want what we have to offer and my god they take the lot yet they dont want to be associated with us and thats a fact.

You do see young muslim people dressed as our youngsters do and they are the ones that have broke away from all the traditions and i havnt a problem with them in any way, it the extreme muslims/asian people i have a huge problem with.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Oh yes the national health, *they *have good deal here ime afraid, i wonder how many have come over here and actuall gone back home, not many i would guess.
> I have to say i would be very wary and scared for that matter(and ime not easily scared) if i was in a crowded tube station/train station or the like and there were muslims with covered faces and thats not jumping to conclusions or being racist things have happened that we will never forget.
> Some muslims and i say some because ime aware its not all, have no respect for their own lives or that of anyone elses.


Why shouldn't people who work here, pay taxes, etc same as everyone else be denied access to the NHS? You seem to be impying that Muslims are not British nationals when alot are.

If you are referring to the attacks on the tubes then these were carried out by young men with rucksacks who did not draw any attention to themselves as they fitted in with the rest of the commuters.


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## MaineCoonMommy (Feb 12, 2011)

Interesting topic as I just wrote a paper on the unequal impact argument and ethics and the law. While, you may not be able to wear shorts in public in Saudi Arabia, no religion requires you TO wear shorts in public. On the other hand, some people do feel that religion requires them to cover their face (the fact that this is debated even within the Muslim community does not deny the fact that people feel this way). To be honest, I too find the face veil intimidating, but I also feel uncomfortable with people who wear vulgar t-shirts in public-I find that socially unacceptable, particularly because I have small children. I took my children to soft play the other day and a dad was wearing an extremely inappropriate t-shirt with a vulgar image blazing across his shirt. I would've preferred to have seen a veiled woman running after her kids with a camera than to have to look at this guy. 

But the point is where do we draw the line on what we are comfortable with and where should the law intercede? France has 'balls'? This is the same country that denies girls access to school if they wear just a headscarf, and refuses jobs to women if they wear a headscarf. This is far from championing equal rights. As a matter of fact, this kind of prejudice is exactly what happened between the Protestants and the Catholics. France also began rounding up its gypsies and sent them off to another country, while claiming to be a part of the EU. This is reminiscent of the actions by a few megalomaniacs in not too distant history. 

And, I'm sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree that this law is not racist. It was created with the intent to target specific groups of people. The fact that non-Muslims or women who do not use a face veil are not affected in the slightest by this law proves my point. Even on French television two days ago, a French t.v. show made a point by sending someone dressed as a mascot (covered from head to toe) into the street. This person walked around the entire city and even asked the police for directions. But, did anyone flag them down, arrest or fine them because their face was covered? No. This law only applies to you if you also happen to be wearing a robe or resemble what anyone would consider to be a Muslim woman with a veil. 

While, I don't particularly feel 'comfortable' with a woman covering her face I also don't feel 'comfortable' by people wearing intentionally inappropriate clothes. As far as religion goes, in some cases it is a choice if you happen to change to this religion as an adult, however, I don't think that is justification enough to say that you deserve to be robbed of your autonomy because you don't share the same religious or non-religious views of other people. And if anyone tries to make a point by saying 'what if a new religion required to walk around with your boobs out' then you're posing a real unequal impact argument. Because, most western societies have been founded upon the kind of moral beliefs that consider this extremely inappropriate (Although people my choose to practice their 'sky-clad' rituals in private away from the public eye). However, there are no deeply founded moral beliefs in western society that specifically mentions anything about the extreme inappropriateness of a women veiling her face.

I certainly hope that the rest of the world doesn't follow in France's foot-steps. I'm an American and I have family in France, and I hate visiting the country because of it's blatant racism to anyone who isn't French (and I'm not just saying this, I've had French people say this to me, including my rather lovely French teacher). I have always admired the way the UK has considered its cultural and religious diversity. It's one of the main reasons I consider the UK to be an incredibly intelligent country. I love the fact that I can go to any random store here in London and see a mix of people working together, with and without a headscarf. If we are going to start making laws on what is appropriate attire I think we need to begin questioning ANYTHING that makes us feel uncomfortable. 

On a side note, as far as the trivial nature of identifying veiled women, many countries with a Muslim majority get around this very easily. They have women check I.D.s of veiled women. It's not too complicated.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> What about Muslims who were born here?
> 
> 'Always want it their own way'??  Oh please... read something other than The Daily Mail or The Sun


*It doesn't matter where they were born,and lets face it you or I could become muslims.That bottom line is,these people are using religion as an excuse,which in my oppinion is wrong.Any religion if its worth anything shouldn't need to lie.*


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MaineCoonMommy said:


> Interesting topic as I just wrote a paper on the unequal impact argument and ethics and the law. While, you may not be able to wear shorts in public in Saudi Arabia, no religion requires you TO wear shorts in public. On the other hand, some people do feel that religion requires them to cover their face (the fact that this is debated even within the Muslim community does not deny the fact that people feel this way). To be honest, I too find the face veil intimidating, but I also feel uncomfortable with people who wear vulgar t-shirts in public-I find that socially unacceptable, particularly because I have small children. I took my children to soft play the other day and a dad was wearing an extremely inappropriate t-shirt with a vulgar image blazing across his shirt. I would've preferred to have seen a veiled woman running after her kids with a camera than to have to look at this guy.
> 
> But the point is where do we draw the line on what we are comfortable with and where should the law intercede? France has 'balls'? This is the same country that denies girls access to school if they wear just a headscarf, and refuses jobs to women if they wear a headscarf. This is far from championing equal rights. As a matter of fact, this kind of prejudice is exactly what happened between the Protestants and the Catholics. France also began rounding up its gypsies and sent them off to another country, while claiming to be a part of the EU. This is reminiscent of the actions by a few megalomaniacs in not too distant history.
> 
> ...


Completely agree!!! Brilliant post


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Why shouldn't people who work here, pay taxes, etc same as everyone else be denied access to the NHS? You seem to be impying that Muslims are not British nationals when alot are.
> 
> If you are referring to the attacks on the tubes then these were carried out by young men with rucksacks who did not draw any attention to themselves as they fitted in with the rest of the commuters.


I havnt a problem with the people who pay taxes thats my whole argument "you get out of life what you put in" ime talking about the ones that come over here demand eberything and put nothing back and believe me there are more that do that than dont, they claim to be british because they are born here i accept that but so many wont behave and live as we do.

I know they ones that bombed the station wasnt in face coverings, because we are on the subject of face covering i would be very wary of them in that sort of environment, like i would if i saw a group of muslims etc all with rucksacs on but we cant and dont wat to ban everything. Unfortunately we dont forget incidents like that, they are a very extreme race not all but many.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Pretty flabbergasted actually by some of the comments on here its like we are living back in the day when it was them and us - I dont feel intimidated by the burqa and I dont feel frightened by it - I feel far more frightened walking through town on a friday night seeing all the lager louts shouting and fighting than I do by a women minding her own business wearing a burqa .....wether it is used as a religious excuse or not if they want to wear it then so be it -although when it comes to security then yes the muslims need to be more flexible - but some women have to wear it - because the men make them ....what will happen to those women now? France IMO is not for equality I see what they are doing as oppression pure and simple. It will breed more hate between our different cultures which I think is pretty sad.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Pretty flabbergasted actually by some of the comments on here its like we are living back in the day when it was them and us - I dont feel intimidated by the burqa and I dont feel frightened by it - I feel far more frightened walking through town on a friday night seeing all the lager louts shouting and fighting than I do by a women minding her own business wearing a burqa .....wether it is used as a religious excuse or not if they want to wear it then so be it -although when it comes to security then yes the muslims need to be more flexible - but some women have to wear it - because the men make them ....what will happen to those women now? France IMO is not for equality I see what they are doing as oppression pure and simple. It will breed more hate between our different cultures which I think is pretty sad.


I think you have hit the nail on the head there suzy, "them" and "us" thats very true in the way many.many muslims see it. I think any hate that has been bred by the different cultures is by them getting away with coming over here and blatently ignoring any of our cultures, we have to remove face covering, but they shouldnt have too, now things like that does cause a divide.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I think you have hit the nail on the head there suzy, "them" and "us" thats very true in the way many.many muslims see it. I think any hate that has been bred by the different cultures is by them getting away with coming over here and blatently ignoring any of our cultures, we have to remove face covering, but they shouldnt have too, now things like that does cause a divide.


I think we the british cause many divides through ignorance too though .......I live in an area where there are many muslims and our community gets on fine with them all and they do respect other peoples way of life - I have never had a muslim show anything but respect for me tbo - our local shop is run by muslims and at Christmas they decorate the shop in lights and xmas trees they send xmas cards to their loyal customers and they give a bottle of wine away as a pressie......I think many do respect our culture and many celebrate them - obviously there are going to be extremists but they are not the majority the divide if there is one is only there because we create it or perpetuate it.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

MaineCoonMommy said:


> Even on French television two days ago, a French t.v. show made a point by sending someone dressed as a mascot (covered from head to toe) into the street. This person walked around the entire city and even asked the police for directions. But, did anyone flag them down, arrest or fine them because their face was covered? No.


*Exceptions to ban on public face covering*
Motorcycle helmets 
Face-masks for health and safety reasons
Face-covering for sporting or professional activities 
Sunglasses, hats etc which do not completely hide the face 
Masks used in "traditional activities", such as carnivals or religious processions 
Character figures and mascots.ie.Euro Disney and advertising.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> I think we the british cause many divides through ignorance too though .......I live in an area where there are many muslims and our community gets on fine with them all and they do respect other peoples way of life - I have never had a muslim show anything but respect for me tbo - our local shop is run by muslims and at Christmas they decorate the shop in lights and xmas trees they send xmas cards to their loyal customers and they give a bottle of wine away as a pressie......I think many do respect our culture and many celebrate them - obviously there are going to be extremists but they are not the majority the divide if there is one is only there because we create it or perpetuate it.


*Suzy as far back as to when i was a kid this country has always been multicultural but its only been in recent years that we have been seeing such big divides.There is a problem whether people like to admit it or not.But how we can sort out the problem is beyond me.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I think we the british cause many divides through ignorance too though .......I live in an area where there are many muslims and our community gets on fine with them all and they do respect other peoples way of life - I have never had a muslim show anything but respect for me tbo - our local shop is run by muslims and at Christmas they decorate the shop in lights and xmas trees they send xmas cards to their loyal customers and they give a bottle of wine away as a pressie......I think many do respect our culture and many celebrate them - obviously there are going to be extremists but they are not the majority the divide if there is one is only there because we create it or perpetuate it.


I think the business people would after all we are their bread and butter and why shouldnt they put up xmas trees and decorate their shops because they are happy with the british to go into the shop and buy christmas related things.
I agree we british do cause a lot of divides because we allow them to be here and get away with so much or pussfoot around issues because they are scared of the racist issues.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> no one is allowed to wear any face coverings as from today if anyone does its a fine of £130.


Love it...

do they suspend that for Halloween?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Love it...
> 
> do they suspend that for Halloween?


Yes you can wear your halloween mask if you really have too thats if its passed over here, ime not holding my breath for that tho think we will be deeing face coverings for a while yet.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

i would never be against them having their religion, but i do think we should go with a ban. They are taking over this country and making Brits want to leave, we shouldnt build them mosks, if we went over their and ask for a church we would be laughed out of the country or worse still....shot.

I think its time we became firmer and kept britian british. i dont feel like this is OUR country anymore....its anyones for the taking.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Suzy as far back as to when i was a kid this country has always been multicultural but its only been in recent years that we have been seeing such big divides.There is a problem whether people like to admit it or not.But how we can sort out the problem is beyond me.*


Exactly Jan we have always been multicultural ! .......so why change that? .lets face it since the 9/11(which was horrendous) muslims have had a pretty tough time and have been subjected to lots of hate campaigns because many british have "generalised" and grouped all muslims as terrorists which is simply not true .....now Im not saying that some are! and im not saying that some do come here and disrespect our rules but it certainly works both ways and some english people dont even try to look past the burqas and the head scarfs - they are human beings just like us afterall and I personally dont see how a burqa changes that - if you dont speak to someone how do you know? we all view certain people and make a judgement - take punk rockers or mods or goths! - I just think some english use the 9/11 attrocity as an excuse to hate and where is that right?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> i would never be against them having their religion, but i do think we should go with a ban. They are taking over this country and making Brits want to leave, we shouldnt build them mosks, if we went over their and ask for a church we would be laughed out of the country or worse still....shot.
> 
> I think its time we became firmer and kept britian british. i dont feel like this is OUR country anymore....its anyones for the taking.


I agree with the what you say about building the mosques, i live in a small village and when i see the tireless work the people of our church do, many elderly people for something like a new roof not long ago it was for a more efficient heating system yet we can find the money to built them new places, is there any wonder theres a divide.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Exactly Jan we have always been multicultural ! .......so why change that? .lets face it since the 9/11(which was horrendous) muslims have had a pretty tough time and have been subjected to lots of hate campaigns because many british have "generalised" and grouped all muslims as terrorists which is simply not true .....now Im not saying that some are! and im not saying that some do come here and disrespect our rules but it certainly works both ways and some english people dont even try to look past the burqas and the head scarfs - they are human beings just like us afterall and I personally dont see how a burqa changes that - if you dont speak to someone how do you know? we all view certain people and make a judgement - take punk rockers or mods or goths! - I just think some english use the 9/11 attrocity as an excuse to hate and where is that right?


*The fact is suzy because of the society we live in now security is a big problem.Now i'm all for people being allowed to have their own faith/relgion but if that poses a threat to our security then i would have to say we wont except it.BUT once again i say,the burka isn't part of the religion.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

My last comment on this thread is that I dont view this country as MINE I see it as a multicultural country with many diverse communities - there will only be divides If we allow them to be there by not embracing this - and with doing that then sometimes we have to accept things that may make us a bit uncomfortable ....I could sit here all day and moan about what letting others into the country may have done to us but what does it achieve? nothing just makes your life pretty sad and depressing I cannot walk round hating others all the time it takes too much energy up! lol


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Exactly Jan we have always been multicultural ! .......so why change that? .lets face it since the 9/11(which was horrendous) muslims have had a pretty tough time and have been subjected to lots of hate campaigns because many british have "generalised" and grouped all muslims as terrorists which is simply not true .....now Im not saying that some are! and im not saying that some do come here and disrespect our rules but it certainly works both ways and some english people dont even try to look past the burqas and the head scarfs - they are human beings just like us afterall and I personally dont see how a burqa changes that - if you dont speak to someone how do you know? we all view certain people and make a judgement - take punk rockers or mods or goths! - I just think some english use the 9/11 attrocity as an excuse to hate and where is that right?


As much as we might try youl be hard fast to see past all that regalia.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *The fact is suzy because of the society we live in now security is a big problem.Now i'm all for people being allowed to have their own faith/relgion but if that poses a threat to our security then i would have to say we wont except it.BUT once again i say,the burka isn't part of the religion.*


Sorry Jan but if its about security which I happen to agree with then why dont they bring a law in that is designed JUST for security without the need to totally ban ??? France are just trying to oppress women again ....like not being able to wear trousers - its regression not progress imo.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> My last comment on this thread is that I dont view this country as MINE I see it as a multicultural country with many diverse communities - there will only be divides If we allow them to be there by not embracing this - and with doing that then sometimes we have to accept things that may make us a bit uncomfortable ....*I could sit here all day and moan about what letting others into the country may have done to us but what does it achieve? nothing just makes your life pretty sad and depressing I cannot walk round hating others all the time it takes too much energy up!* lol


Me too!!! 

I'm also of the opinion that just because I don't like something doesn't justify banning it!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> My last comment on this thread is that I dont view this country as MINE I see it as a multicultural country with many diverse communities - there will only be divides If we allow them to be there by not embracing this - and with doing that then sometimes we have to accept things that may make us a bit uncomfortable ....I could sit here all day and moan about what letting others into the country may have done to us but what does it achieve? nothing just makes your life pretty sad and depressing I cannot walk round hating others all the time it takes too much energy up! lol


Well i know this comment wasnt directed at me but just in case i come into sad and depressed i will say it doesnt make me sad or depressed, but what it does do is make me is bloody mad that we have been taken over by so many that just dont want a safe haven they want the country run to suit them, they are happy with all the handouts but give nothing back to this country.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Well i know this comment wasnt directed at me but just in case i come into sad and depressed i will say it doesnt make me sad or depressed, but what it does do is make me is bloody mad that we have been taken over by so many that just dont want a safe haven they want the country run to suit them, they are happy with all the handouts but give nothing back to this country.


That was supposed to be my last post LOL :tongue_smilie: but I just want to say It was not aimed at you HM - Im just talking in general about a lot of peoples views of muslims......anger is still a negative emotion though I dont begrude you your opinion on this at all many members of my family say exactly the same thing which is why many heated debates go on at my mums when we are over there lol -


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I see this country as mine and feel i have ever right to do so.If our forefathers gave their lives fighting for it then we owe it to them to protect what they fought for.Now i don't mind sharing it,but on our terms.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> That was supposed to be my last post LOL :tongue_smilie: but I just want to say It was not aimed at you HM - Im just talking in general about a lot of peoples views of muslims......anger is still a negative emotion though I dont begrude you your opinion on this at all many members of my family say exactly the same thing which is why many heated debates go on at my mums when we are over there lol -


Ha yes i can imagine and if i can just say i have friends that are muslim i work around a few muslim children with the best of manner and have a really supportive families, so i am not against all.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I see this country as mine and feel i have ever right to do so.If our forefathers gave their lives fighting for it then we owe it to them to protect what they fought for.Now i don't mind sharing it,but on our terms.*


Agree and lets face it we could not go into any other country and live there on OUR terms and why should we demand that right.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I see this country as mine and feel i have ever right to do so.If our forefathers gave their lives fighting for it then we owe it to them to protect what they fought for.Now i don't mind sharing it,but on our terms.*


And Im sure other countries felt the same when Britain colonised and took over their land and countries.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Ha yes i can imagine and if i can just say i have friends that are muslim i work around a few muslim children with the best of manner and have a really supportive families, so i am not against all.


You dont have to explain yourself hun  your opinions are yours and you are entitled to them  I just think the british sometimes tend to forget what we have done as a country to other countries in the past but then act the martyr


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Agree and lets face it we could not go into any other country and live there on OUR terms and why should we demand that right.


*I admit i haven't been to many countries ( i prefer my own),but we have been to Malta many times and have always respected their rules without question.
My oppinion is,if i don't like the rules then i shouldn't be going there.All i ask is that others show the same respect in my country.*


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## MaineCoonMommy (Feb 12, 2011)

As far as British identity goes, this country couldn't decide wether it was Catholic or Protestant for some time. When one rule was passed against Protestants or Catholics (depending on who was in charge) people were suddenly finding themselves on the wrong side of the law. You couldn't even think of building a Catholic church in this country. Ironically all of these monotheistic religions all came from the same geographic location, yet I find it interesting how people suddenly feel threatened that their identity is being threatened by 'foreigners' , when people used to run away from this country for following the current unpopular Christian denomination. As far as 'us' not having the same rights in other country, what exactly is 'us'? In a country where people practice a variety of religions or don't practice at all? Who is to say what is the correct British identity? Catholicism preceded the Protestant religion but it was later knocked down. Then brought back again. Then knocked down again. This only proves that there is a neccessity to consider people's religions and allow for intelligent discussion regarding the freedom for people to practice their religion when it has no negative impact on others. 

Do you really think that banning the face veil will make any place safer? Any person intent on robbing or shoplifting will not suddenly feel obligated to leave his face in plain sight because there is a ban on face covering. On the flip side, are we really in a position where we are being terrorized, killed, robbed or threatened by women in the street wearing a veil? Anyone intent on causing harm to anyone else will do so regardless of what law there is in place or how they are required to dress. People are constantly getting murdered in this country, every single day there are people dying. Yet these murderers are not considered a threat to national security or are a threat to British 'identity', even though they are killing people and the lady with a veil taking her child to school is not. On the same note, white southerners in the U.S. during the civil rights movement also felt their own identity was being threatened when they were suddenly forced to have establishments that served blacks. They also felt that 'this is our space' and that black people were 'taking over' (insert outraged and threatened self-identity argument here). What makes the argument on a ban on mosques or face veil superior than a ban of service to blacks? That one is a matter of race and one is a matter of religion? In fact, many people seem to consider the religion and race to go hand in hand, so is it not the same thing? 

By the way, there are churches and synagogues in Muslim countries, I've seen them myself. In fact during the Spanish Inquisition many many Jews escaped to North Africa and Turkey where they found refuge amongst Muslims. Not ALL predominantly Muslim countries today have the same liberties as the UK, but like I said, that's what makes this an incredibly intelligent country. I don't doubt it's own religious history has had an impact on how people choose to draft laws today.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> And Im sure other countries felt the same when Britain colonised and took over their land and countries.


*Ah now i agree with you there suzy.The brits have a hell of a lot in their history to be ashamed of.But the fact still remains what is ours should stay ours.We have been giving too much away over the years and now we have a sittuation on our hands that imo will only result in trouble.Give an inch take a mile comes to mind.Had we laid down the law many moons ago and not been so soft we wouldn't have this problem now.imo*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ah now i agree with you there suzy.The brits have a hell of a lot in their history to be ashamed of.But the fact still remains what is ours should stay ours.We have been giving too much away over the years and now we have a sittuation on our hands that imo will only result in trouble.Give an inch take a mile comes to mind.Had we laid down the law many moons ago and not been so soft we wouldn't have this problem now.imo*


Jan you know my views on Immagration - I certainly feel it should have been capped a few years back! we do give far too much away im not and never have denied that - but I still dont see what banning an item of clothing would achieve


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I admit i haven't been to many countries ( i prefer my own),but we have been to Malta many times and have always respected their rules without question.
> My oppinion is,if i don't like the rules then i shouldn't be going there.All i ask is that others show the same respect in my country.*


We once went into a church in Malta and they ushered us out as we were in holiday atire we had no idea that we had to be covered and they gave us a wrap to wear didnt have a problem with that, thats their religion and we respected it no questions asked.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Jan you know my views on Immagration - I certainly feel it should have been capped a few years back! we do give far too much away im not and never have denied that - but I still dont see what banning an item of clothing would achieve


It would achieve an awful lot, it would be making a stand for starters, that what laws we have to abide by should be abided by everyone that lives here.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> It would achieve an awful lot, it would be making a stand for starters, that what laws we have to abide by should be abided by everyone that lives here.


and NO exceptions should be made for colour creed nor relegion.
Again we are back to the old saying
When in Rome!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> and NO exceptions should be made for colour creed nor relegion.
> Again we are back to the old saying
> When in Rome!


But do the british ALL do that when in other countries???


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> and NO exceptions should be made for colour creed nor relegion.
> Again we are back to the old saying
> When in Rome!


Exactly!!......................


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> It would achieve an awful lot, it would be making a stand for starters, that what laws we have to abide by should be abided by everyone that lives here.


But a stand against what? stifling peoples beliefs - now stopping people getting benefits who just come into the country then yes I believe that is making a stand and protecting our country but banning clothes is not its oppression.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Sorry Jan but if its about security which I happen to agree with then why dont they bring a law in that is designed JUST for security without the need to totally ban ??? France are just trying to oppress women again ....like not being able to wear trousers - its regression not progress imo.


The law was introduced because the burkha is part of the oppression of women...So how you make that one out I don't know.
If it wasn't for the rules and bias of their men they wouldn't wear it in the first place.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

poohdog said:


> The law was introduced because the burkha is part of the oppression of women...So how you make that one out I don't know.
> If it wasn't for the rules and bias of their men they wouldn't wear it in the first place.


So by banning burkas this is 'liberating' women? I don't think so. Some women choose to wear one so surely by taking that choice away is oppressive


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> So by banning burkas this is 'liberating' women? I don't think so. Some women choose to wear one so surely by taking that choice away is oppressive


And a hell of a lot are *TOLD* to wear one...they don't have women priests,and don't have the voice to protest.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

poohdog said:


> The law was introduced because the burkha is part of the oppression of women...So how you make that one out I don't know.
> If it wasn't for the rules and bias of their men they wouldn't wear it in the first place.


Yes that is true but imo France are just saying that so it looks good - IF they really cared about the welfare of these women who are oppressed by men they would be doing something that is not going to have a detrimental affect on them....these men will now find other ways of oppressing them prob make them stay indoors etc - they have merely shifted the oppression and lets face it they dont really give a hoot about the muslim womens welfare.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> But do the british ALL do that when in other countries???


Those that live in other countries like Saudi and India I would expect have little choice. OK I guess what goes on behind closed doors is different but then we are not asking then to alter 'indoors'

I have been to India (NOT that we are talking JUST india - but using this as a comparrison) a number of times and I certainly 100% would NEVER flount the laws. I like to think that I am very respectful of their traditions.
And I have sat on the floor with the woman whilst the men do business, And I have worn a headscarf - fortunately I have never been in close proximety with a woman in a full Burqa whilst there. But my friend in married into a very weathly (muslin family) The family donate large amounts of money to the local school -when she (Bridgett) is in India she can only go out with a chaperone she wears a Sari and is well covered and she is NOT allowed to talk to anyone, and cannot give money to beggers either.
Over here in the UK - she wears the trousers.

I have also been several times to Turkey albeit on holday, Where I believe perhaps half the country practice the muslin faith - again I liketo think that I are respectful.

In the west Indies (my favorite place) Been many times and made many friends I have never even seen a burqa there but think perhaps that most are Roman catholic .

I do get annoyed with out louts abroad though! and those that walk around half naked , swearing, drinking and having sex! but they are on holiday - they DONT live there! no excuse I know


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

I have lots of muslim friends who _like_ wearing burkhas, so for them a ban is just daft. Why take that away from them? It doesn't harm them or anyone else.

As for those who are forced to wear it against their will, does anyone honestly believe that banning burkhas will improve these womens lives? How is that going to happen?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Those that live in other countries like Saudi and India I would expect have little choice. OK I guess what goes on behind closed doors is different but then we are not asking then to alter 'indoors'
> 
> I have been to India (NOT that we are talking JUST india - but using this as a comparrison) a number of times and I certainly 100% would NEVER flount the laws. I like to think that I am very respectful of their traditions.
> And I have sat on the floor with the woman whilst the men do business, And I have worn a headscarf - fortunately I have never been in close proximety with a woman in a full Burqa whilst there. But my friend in married into a very weathly (muslin family) The family donate large amounts of money to the local school -when she (Bridgett) is in India she can only go out with a chaperone she wears a Sari and is well covered and she is NOT allowed to talk to anyone, and cannot give money to beggers either.
> ...


But that is just you DT - you have respect for others when abroad - but many dont - even some brits who live long-term abroad dont respect - they dont learn the language they dont try and fit in - it does work both ways and yes even though many brits go abroad for a holiday the devastation that many of the people who live in that country have to encounter with regards to their property etc due to the drunks is disgusting we would never allow it here even if it was just a holiday


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Jan you know my views on Immagration - I certainly feel it should have been capped a few years back! we do give far too much away im not and never have denied that - but I still dont see what banning an item of clothing would achieve


*Its the princible suzy and imo a security issue.As an example,some places of work insist on a type of uniform now are they wrong?If people don't like the rules then go somewhere where they can do as they like.



haeveymolly said:



We once went into a church in Malta and they ushered us out as we were in holiday atire we had no idea that we had to be covered and they gave us a wrap to wear didnt have a problem with that, thats their religion and we respected it no questions asked.

Click to expand...

We had the same when we 1st went to Malta my hubby was given a wrap to cover his knees.Also in Valetta (sp) men can't walk around without a shirt or vest on.*


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> Its the princible suzy and imo a security issue.As an example,some places of work insist on a type of uniform now are they wrong?If people don't like the rules then go somewhere where they can do as they like.


A security issue? How so?

Places of work have uniforms for a variety of reasons. 
- identifying staff
- health and safety
- etc

Does that really translate to a whole country? As for going somewhere else, what if someone was born and bred in a country then suddenly found that something they wore meant they were expected to leave?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

it will never happen but i think it should have been banned from the off. When i go to a muslim country i respect the way they wish to dress, in this country they should respect our way of life i have no problems with the sari but a full face covering is too much.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

KalokiMallow said:


> A security issue? How so?
> 
> Places of work have uniforms for a variety of reasons.
> - identifying staff
> ...


*Laws telling us what we can and can't do are made all the time in this country,i don't like having to abide by them all but i have to put up with it.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Its the princible suzy and imo a security issue.As an example,some places of work insist on a type of uniform now are they wrong?If people don't like the rules then go somewhere where they can do as they like.
> 
> I can see why it is a security issue Jan I really can - but IMO they needed to think a bit more about how to approach that instead of outright banning......uniforms are just that u do not have to wear them in your private life - a uniform is provided by a company who pays you to work for them they are not asking you to change your identity indefinetely.*


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## frosty2010 (Apr 2, 2010)

Lets face facts, apparently only women wear them, but whose to say a terrorist cant use it as a disguise. you cant wear a motorcycle helmet into a petrol station, so why should any other face covering be allowed?

you associate balaclavers with bank robbers, the Burkha these "women" wear are no different and could be used for similar things.

How would you feel working in a bank, and you had customers coming in with Burkha's on? in a shop? anywhere? 

I think they should be band world wide. If I went out in a balaclaver, I think everyone would feel intimidated. there is no difference. 

Ban the Burkha, follow the french on this one  they got my vote!


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

frosty2010 said:


> Ban the Burkha, follow the french on this one  they got my vote!


Think I can follow you on that one!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

frosty2010 said:


> Lets face facts, apparently only women wear them, but whose to say a terrorist cant use it as a disguise. you cant wear a motorcycle helmet into a petrol station, so why should any other face covering be allowed?
> 
> you associate balaclavers with bank robbers, the Burkha these "women" wear are no different and could be used for similar things.
> 
> ...


*How many banks and shops have the sign on their doors saying "please remove crash helmets"? I bet there would be an uproar if it also said remove burkas.*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

My oh gets asked to take his baseball cap off when we walk into shops around town..... hes 26 and has 2 young kids with him, yet i have seen people walk in in berqas


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> My oh gets asked to take his baseball cap off when we walk into shops around town..... hes 26 and has 2 young kids with him, yet i have seen people walk in in berqas


My OH wears a cap in town whilst shopping and has never been asked to take it off.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> My OH wears a cap in town whilst shopping and has never been asked to take it off.


To be fair its only a certain 2 shops but thats beside the point imo.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> To be fair its only a certain 2 shops but thats beside the point imo.


Ahhhh but that does make it a bit different doesnt it lol


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## frosty2010 (Apr 2, 2010)

still though I bet they wouldnt ask someone to remove a burkah.

you could start your own religion today, anyone can do it, does that mean you can make your own rules?

The burkah is an optional part of their religion, its not like we are telling them to eat during fasting periods etc....

It doesnt affect their religion. its all bull. Thing is its optional not a must, just like its optional for christians to do things like a pilgrimage, it doesnt make you a bad person if you dont do it and your "god" doesnt think any less of you for not doing it.

they wear them from choice. if a white christian oppressed his wife in this country, it would be treated as involuntary imprisonment and abuse. if a "muslim" does it, its ok, its their religion. 

You cant have a religion to break the law. Hoodies have been banned as they were intimidating, burkahs are worse in my opinion.


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## frosty2010 (Apr 2, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many banks and shops have the sign on their doors saying "please remove crash helmets"? I bet there would be an uproar if it also said remove burkas.*


it wouldnt say that, it would say no entry without your face being visible due to securit reasons lol


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I think they should be banned I had to go to Luton Hospital a few weeks ago and there were loads of women in there with them on I felt really uncomfortable,I"m sure if I went round with a balaclava on I"d be told to take it off


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

suewhite said:


> I think they should be banned I had to go to Luton Hospital a few weeks ago and there were loads of women in there with them on I felt really uncomfortable,I"m sure if I went round with a balaclava on I"d be told to take it off


Seeing as you have brought up luton hospital - my daughter had her second child there. She is a full time working mother- the main earner - so wanted to know at the scanthe sex of the baby so that she could dispose of any of the stuff no longer needed from the first child etc etc!

It seems that Luton hospital have a policy NOT to reveal the sex of the baby due to the area having a high muslin population! She could get find out the sex by going to Milton Keynes which would have cost her £140 - now why the hell should she have to pay?

So moving on from there we all know why luton hospital have this policy but why the hell should our own be penalized because of it?

It stinks imo! always has always will!


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Seeing as you have brought up luton hospital - my daughter had her second child there. She is a full time working mother- the main earner - so wanted to know at the scanthe sex of the baby so that she could dispose of any of the stuff no longer needed from the first child etc etc!
> 
> It seems that Luton hospital have a policy NOT to reveal the sex of the baby due to the area having a high muslin population! She could get find out the sex by going to Milton Keynes which would have cost her £140 - now why the hell should she have to pay?
> 
> ...


its the same here altho i didnt know what the reason was for when i had my daughter i think i paid£100 to find out if she was a boy or girl!! shocking!! also had to trvel 30 miles to the place to get the scan done too xx


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> No comparison  flashing ya rude bits is in a diff category to your face ffs. If we talked out of our ass that would be uncovered am sure but we dont so its covered. Seriously ridiculous statement.


actually, not wearing a top (if you're female) should be no different than if a guy does it.

and a woman has already proven this years ago, she was arrested for indecent exposure, she argued in court that guys can do it why can't she? there is NO DIFFERENCE physically only 'mentally' and that she shouldn't be punished for others being unable to deal with something that doesn't bother her, there is nothing 'indecent' about breasts on any gender.

the case was thrown out of court, her record expunged.

and she was completely right. there is no difference. the only difference is what our culture and uptight thinking.

i think the same can be said for face coverings. they should be allowed but they should be required by law to be removed in certain circumstances.. in public buildings where security paramount (banks, schools etc), at work, places like that but in public where security isn't a big problem, or at home or in the cinema etc what's the problem?


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

So far the main reasons for a burkha ban then are "it makes me uncomfortable"?


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

owieprone said:


> actually, not wearing a top (if you're female) should be no different than if a guy does it.
> 
> and a woman has already proven this years ago, she was arrested for indecent exposure, she argued in court that guys can do it why can't she? there is NO DIFFERENCE physically only 'mentally' and that she shouldn't be punished for others being unable to deal with something that doesn't bother her, there is nothing 'indecent' about breasts on any gender.
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly unless it's since been altered...a naked woman was 'Disturbing the peace' wheras a naked man was 'Indecent exposure'


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> So far the main reasons for a burkha ban then are "it makes me uncomfortable"?


Or more precisely! we (the majority) do not like full face coverings being worn by ANYONE , ANYWHERE in the UK, mainly because there is NO legitimate reason whatsoever to wear them, the relegion card is past its sell by date and a load of cods wallop!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Seeing as you have brought up luton hospital - my daughter had her second child there. She is a full time working mother- the main earner - so wanted to know at the scanthe sex of the baby so that she could dispose of any of the stuff no longer needed from the first child etc etc!
> 
> It seems that Luton hospital have a policy NOT to reveal the sex of the baby due to the area having a high muslin population! She could get find out the sex by going to Milton Keynes which would have cost her £140 - now why the hell should she have to pay?
> 
> ...


Its because boys are cheaper because they have to pay for girls to get wed etc.
I knew a muslim family whos daughter was due to get married they packed her off to india and she was shot! They did not even close their show for a funeral
She was a beautiful young woman with everything to live for such a bloody waste!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> I respect peoples religions, but must admit theres quite a few women wear the full face thing around where I work and I do find it a bit intimidating


Where I live a lot of women will wear the niqab or the the burka and I find it intimidating too.


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Or more precisely! we (the majority) do not like full face coverings being worn by ANYONE , ANYWHERE in the UK, mainly because there is NO legitimate reason whatsoever to wear them, the relegion card is past its sell by date and a load of cods wallop!


So any item of clothing that people find intimidating (and that doesn't have a use) should be banned? Can I ban burberry? What about football shirts not worn by players? Should my piercings be banned? How about my husband's New Rock boots?

It doesn't exactly hold up to logical scrutiny does it? How much of what you wear is worn only for "legitimate" reasons? And when did we decide that just liking an item isn't legitimate? Or showing a faith?

I'm all for saying that face coverings should be removed in some situations (eg. for security reasons) but how can you justify someone choosing to wear something in their own time and where something like security isn't an issue?


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

KalokiMallow said:


> So any item of clothing that people find intimidating (and that doesn't have a use) should be banned? Can I ban burberry? What about football shirts not worn by players? Should my piercings be banned? How about my husband's New Rock boots?
> 
> It doesn't exactly hold up to logical scrutiny does it? How much of what you wear is worn only for "legitimate" reasons? And when did we decide that just liking an item isn't legitimate? Or showing a faith?
> 
> I'm all for saying that face coverings should be removed in some situations (eg. for security reasons) but how can you justify someone choosing to wear something in their own time and where something like security isn't an issue?


I find that it's more about being unable to see peoples' faces and thus being unable to read nonverbal communication, which you can (attempt to) do with someone with piercings/in a football shirt, even though you might feel intimidated because of the perceived cultural symbol. Whether it's a balaclava, a hoodie or a burka, concealing the majority of one's face can and will concern a lot of people. I also find a lot of people are more accepting of the hijab than the burka/niqab, because there's less coverage. I can't say I enjoy living amongst people whose faces I've never seen, it's alien to me and I find burkas/niqabs a depressing sight, just like I find young lads with covered faces a depressing sight too...


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

I actually find people wearing sunglasses harder to talk to due to no eye contact, at least you have that in a burkha. 

So all it comes down to is, as you put it, what is "alien" to you. That makes me really nervous that people are willing to ban something just because they aren't accustomed to it. Even though it causes them no harm.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

For a country to apply for a ban and actually get it passed well 2 countries now there has to be some problem,they dont get a ban passed for no reason .


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> So any item of clothing that people find intimidating (and that doesn't have a use) should be banned? Can I ban burberry? What about football shirts not worn by players? Should my piercings be banned? How about my husband's New Rock boots?
> 
> It doesn't exactly hold up to logical scrutiny does it? How much of what you wear is worn only for "legitimate" reasons? And when did we decide that just liking an item isn't legitimate? Or showing a faith?
> 
> I'm all for saying that face coverings should be removed in some situations (eg. for security reasons) but how can you justify someone choosing to wear something in their own time and where something like security isn't an issue?


So pray tell me ! where is the REAL argument for the Burqa her?
It is because these woman should have the 'right' to wear one?
Or is is that their husbands insist on them wearing them!
Next you will be telling me that you agree with 'female' genital multilations just becaue this is what 'is done'


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> I actually find people wearing sunglasses harder to talk to due to no eye contact, at least you have that in a burkha.
> 
> So all it comes down to is, as you put it, what is "alien" to you. That makes me really nervous that people are willing to ban something just because they aren't accustomed to it. Even though it causes them no harm.


Are you real?


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

KalokiMallow said:


> I actually find people wearing sunglasses harder to talk to due to no eye contact, at least you have that in a burkha.
> 
> So all it comes down to is, as you put it, what is "alien" to you. That makes me really nervous that people are willing to ban something just because they aren't accustomed to it. Even though it causes them no harm.


Do you even know what a burka is? It has a mesh covering the eye area, so eye contact is not clear. It sounds like you're confusing it with the niqab. Depending on the kind of sunglasses, you'd get more visible eye contact from them! And with sunglasses, you have the mouth and the rest of the face to communicate with. The burka is the most concealing veil out of the niqab, hijab and chador.

And no it does not 'all come down' to what I think, did I even suggest a ban? I was merely mentioning why I find it intimidating, no mention of a ban at all if you care to read the post properly!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

KalokiMallow said:


> I actually find people wearing sunglasses harder to talk to due to no eye contact, at least you have that in a burkha.
> 
> So all it comes down to is, as you put it, what is "alien" to you. That makes me really nervous that people are willing to ban something just because they aren't accustomed to it. Even though it causes them no harm.


I feel the same I really don't like talking to someone wearing very dark sunglasses, I do like to I have eye contact with people. There are a few women round here who wear the complete Burka and veil which I find very unsettling.


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So pray tell me ! where is the REAL argument for the Burqa her?
> It is because these woman should have the 'right' to wear one?
> Or is is that their husbands insist on them wearing them!
> Next you will be telling me that you agree with genital multilations just becaue this is what 'is done'


There are a few issues you are confusing here.

What argument does any item of clothing have? Why does the burkha need a different one?

As for the issue of women being forced to wear them, so far no one has explained how banning the burkha will help those women? Does anyone here think that the kind of men who force women to do things will suddenly have a change of heart? Wearing a burkha isn't the only way a woman can be oppressed.

As for genital mutilation? Seriously? You're comparing a piece of fabric with that? If a grown adult chooses to have their genitals mutilated - well it's up to them (i'd think they were mad, but still) inflicting it on another is wrong, obviously.

Same with burkhas. Inflicted on someone = wrong. Choosing it = no problem.


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

shibby said:


> Do you even know what a burka is? It has a mesh covering the eye area, so eye contact is not clear. It sounds like you're confusing it with the niqab.


All the people I've spoken to while they've been wearing a burkha have had visible eyes, even through the mesh.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> There are a few issues you are confusing here.
> 
> What argument does any item of clothing have? Why does the burkha need a different one?
> 
> ...


I ain't confusing note love! There are some that are here for a better life, to get away from the atrocities in their mother countries yet they bring that that they are trying to escape with them! Their Traditions! 
The sooner we have a governemt with the balls of the French government the better imo!

And as for the genital multilation - whos talking about grown adullts? I am speaking of the 6 year year old girls that have to endure that pain - all in the name of religion! You seem to know a lot about the batman suit! thought you would have been clued up on this too!


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> All the people I've spoken to while they've been wearing a burkha have had visible eyes, even through the mesh.


What about deaf folk! I am deaf a a fooking post you know! how do I cope?


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I ain't confusing note love! There are some that are here for a better life, to get away from the atrocities in their mother countries yet they bring that that they are trying to escape with them! Their Traditions!
> The sooner we have a governemt with the balls of the French government the better imo!
> 
> And as for the genital multilation - whos talking about grown adullts? I am speaking of the 6 year year old girls that have to endure that pain - all in the name of religion! You seem to know a lot about the batman suit! thought you would have been clued up on this too!


I'm pretty certain they are trying to escape tyrannical governments, rather than their traditions.

I know quite enough about what they do to young girls, but my point still stands that the burkhas are not comparable to it. 
For one, as you point out, one is an item worn by adults - not all of whom are without choice, while the other is violence inflicted upon defenceless children. Do you still think the two are comparable?


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What about deaf folk! I am deaf a a fooking post you know! how do I cope?


I'd imagine that if they wanted to communicate with you then they'd find a way. And if they didn't then you aren't going to be losing out on a wonderful friendship.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> I'm pretty certain they are trying to escape tyrannical governments, rather than their traditions.
> 
> I know quite enough about what they do to young girls, but my point still stands that the burkhas are not comparable to it.
> For one, as you point out, one is an item worn by adults - not all of whom are without choice, while the other is violence inflicted upon defenceless children. Do you still think the two are comparable?


You are beginning to grate my patience! so dont ask me stupid questions!
It were a barbaric comparison to folk like you that can molly coddle and support their beliefs! summat about give em an inch eh!
Time they moved into the 21st century!

We are in ENGLAND we do NOT have forced marriages, we do not stone to death those that have brought shame on the family nor commited adulty we do not violate our children we do not kill our unborn baby girls - we have to start somewhere! and if thats that men cannot force their woman to wear the burqa then so be it!
Female Genital Mutilation

Female Genital Mutilation


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> I'd imagine that if they wanted to communicate with you then they'd find a way. And if they didn't then you aren't going to be losing out on a wonderful friendship.


I have never had a problem with communication! Sticking two fingers up to folk like you normally does the trick!


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

Why start with the burkha though, why not aim for something that will actually make a difference? Rather than the easy target.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> Why start with the burkha though, why not aim for something that will actually make a difference? Rather than the easy target.


But that is my point, we have to start somewhere, they cannot treat their woman as they do, woman and NOT now nor will ever be second class citizens something to be thrown out with the rubbish! I do know muslin people and there are some lovely folk! but if they are here then they HAVE to adopt our ways .


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

KalokiMallow said:


> All the people I've spoken to while they've been wearing a burkha have had visible eyes, even through the mesh.


It's is greatly reduced due to the mesh grille. And also proves a point about the necessity of facial communication. If someone is wearing dark tinted glasses, you can focus on their mouth and eyebrow area and other parts of the face that convey meaning. Or you could just ask them to remove them. In a burka, if you are up close you may be able to make out some eye contact, but there's no opportunity to gain any other information from their facial expressions nor is it likely the veil will be removed.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

KalokiMallow said:


> Why start with the burkha though, why not aim for something that will actually make a difference? Rather than the easy target.


Because the banning has nothing to do with the men controling, religion etc its about security just like we have to have our faces showing when we enter certain places. Why should this not be the case for everyone? and as i said before you dont get a banning like this passed for some petty personal reason.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

KalokiMallow said:


> Why start with the burkha though, why not aim for something that will actually make a difference? Rather than the easy target.


*The first ban should and would have been on immigration if i had my way.Then we wouldn't be faceing these problems.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Immigration should have been capped years ago then we wouldnt have communities taken over by immigrants, why we cant work like other countries do i dont know.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *The first ban should and would have been on immigration if i had my way.Then we wouldn't be faceing these problems.*





haeveymolly said:


> Immigration should have been capped years ago then we wouldnt have communities taken over by immigrants, why we cant work like other countries do i dont know.


Is this the time when we place bets on who would mention Enouch Powell first


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

the worlds gone mad


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Is this the time when we place bets on who would mention Enouch Powell first


Why did they shoot him down instead of listening to him


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Rivers of Blood speech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 1968
It could have been yesterday.*


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But that is my point, we have to start somewhere, they cannot treat their woman as they do, woman and NOT now nor will ever be second class citizens something to be thrown out with the rubbish!


How does banning the burkha stop women being treated like second class citizens?


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Why did they shoot him down instead of listening to him


Guess because they we typical MP's Enouch were an odd one! a unique species - he were born with a backbone!


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Because the banning has nothing to do with the men controling, religion etc its about security just like we have to have our faces showing when we enter certain places. Why should this not be the case for everyone? and as i said before you dont get a banning like this passed for some petty personal reason.


So surely you just say, "no facial coverings" in places where security is important. Why an all out ban?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

KalokiMallow said:


> So surely you just say, "no facial coverings" in places where security is important. Why an all out ban?


because they wont have that, there has been a lot of trouble in france because they refused to do it, so they had to make it illegal.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> So surely you just say, "no facial coverings" in places where security is important. Why an all out ban?


Because it frightens the little children


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

That makes a little more sense, though I still think a more sensible idea would be to make it so that in certain areas it is illegal to wear a face covering. 

Solves two problems, security without stopping people from wearing something they feel comfortable in.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> That makes a little more sense, though I still think a more sensible idea would be to make it so that in certain areas it is illegal to wear a face covering.
> 
> Solves two problems, security without stopping people from wearing something they feel comfortable in.


OK! I'll meet you halfway on this! they can wear em inside their OWN four walls! OK deal?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

KalokiMallow said:


> That makes a little more sense, though I still think a more sensible idea would be to make it so that in certain areas it is illegal to wear a face covering.
> 
> Solves two problems, security without stopping people from wearing something they feel comfortable in.


They were told they could not wear facial coverings in banks, petrol stations pretty much the same as we cant wear certain face covering here, but they wouldny adhere to that, one muslim woman even refused to have her picture took for a driving license WHAT!!!! So, and good on France they have applied for an outright ban and won, pity we havnt done the same, but can you imagine the outcry if and when we do, when you compare the rest of the country with who is on here up in arms, cant see it happening and thats how this country has been taken over because it has no backbone to stand its ground.


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> They were told they could not wear facial coverings in banks, petrol stations pretty much the same as we cant wear certain face covering here, but they wouldny adhere to that


So those that wouldn't adhere to the semi ban before, are they going to adhere to a full ban?

If they don't then what more is a full ban going to achieve that a semi ban didn't? The same people who were happy to comply with a semi ban will now have lost the freedom to wear something that means something to them.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> They were told they could not wear facial coverings in banks, petrol stations pretty much the same as we cant wear certain face covering here, but they wouldny adhere to that, one muslim woman even refused to have her picture took for a driving license WHAT!!!! So, and good on France they have applied for an outright ban and won, pity we havnt done the same, but can you imagine the outcry if and when we do, when you compare the rest of the country with who is on here up in arms, cant see it happening and thats how this country has been taken over because it has no backbone to stand its ground.


Or all the 'younger'generations have been brainwashed maybe!
Or perhaps them in high places have put summat in the water!

Or maybe its just pet forum members
By the way! Christmas is cancelled this year!


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> So those that wouldn't adhere to the semi ban before, are they going to adhere to a full ban?
> 
> If they don't then what more is a full ban going to achieve that a semi ban didn't? The same people who were happy to comply with a semi ban will now have lost the freedom to wear something that means something to them.


give em 28 days in jail! they'd soon get their burqa's removed in the big house! And a bit more besides!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

KalokiMallow said:


> So those that wouldn't adhere to the semi ban before, are they going to adhere to a full ban?
> 
> If they don't then what more is a full ban going to achieve that a semi ban didn't? The same people who were happy to comply with a semi ban will now have lost the freedom to wear something that means something to them.


It wasnt a semi-ban it was like we have here a rule and theres a difference they were asked and they refused, so unlike us no nonsense approach and went for the full ban, they are fined and if they dont pay up i would imagine like for any other law that isnt adhered to they will be dealt with accordingly i would imagine.

I do think it has gone much further in this country too little too late we have given them too much rope and i think and this does scare me a little tbh that if we now come down on the muslims in this country about everything that should and needs to be put right we will be in big trouble because in many areas there is huge communities of muslim people and they are capable and have the mentality to do far much more damage than we would dare do and as its been said with the war our boys are trying to fight in afgan "how can you fight a war with people that dont give a f*ck".


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> It wasnt a semi-ban it was like we have here a rule and theres a difference they were asked and they refused, so unlike us no nonsense approach and went for the full ban, they are fined and if they dont pay up i would imagine like for any other law that isnt adhered to they will be dealt with accordingly i would imagine.
> 
> I do think it has gone much further in this country too little too late we have given them too much rope and i think and this does scare me a little tbh that if we now come down on the muslims in this country about everything that should and needs to be put right we will be in big trouble because in many areas there is huge communities of muslim people and they are capable and have the mentality to do far much more damage than we would dare do and as its been said with the war our boys are trying to fight in afgan "how can you fight a war with people that dont give a f*ck".


All seems quiet on the western front! think we can go to bed now!
Nite


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## Broxi_jim (Mar 30, 2009)

Never thought I'd say this !!!
But I'm with the French on this !!!!!!! 
I've not read the whole thread !!

But if we go to *THEIR* country, we have to *OBEY* their rules, if not we suffer THEIR laws !!

So they should do the same here or go back home or to a country that is based on their faith / laws etc etc

I don't think it will work here as we have too many lefty liberal types in office now !!

And I dunno if its just that I'm noticing things more. But since 9/11, there seems to be more muslims wearing their own form of clothing, were as before they would have worn more western type of clothing !!

Round my way we have more mosques than churches !!
And they are getting grants to obtain the older church buildings and converting them into mosques !!!


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Broxi_jim said:


> And I dunno if its just that I'm noticing things more. But since 9/11, there seems to be more muslims wearing their own form of clothing, were as before they would have worn more western type of clothing !!
> 
> Round my way we have more mosques than churches !!
> And they are getting grants to obtain the older church buildings and converting them into mosques !!!


There's just more of 'em my dear chap...

As for the churches...I think you will find most are Victorian or Edwardian buildings,and if our lot don't want 'em why not?...it's either that or a carpet shop...


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

poohdog said:


> There's just more of 'em my dear chap...
> 
> As for the churches...I think you will find most are Victorian or Edwardian buildings,and if our lot don't want 'em why not?...it's either that or a carpet shop...


And if it is land owned by the council they sell it for a crazy sum like a £1 or a fiver you don't get to know this land or building is for sale until after it is sold, and it is never advertised!

Now that is 'bent'

DT


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

poohdog said:


> There's just more of 'em my dear chap...
> 
> As for the churches...I think you will find most are Victorian or Edwardian buildings,and if our lot don't want 'em why not?...it's either that or a carpet shop...


I think its more like we are having huge problems funding them,most of the upkeep is fund aided, where the money comes from for muslims to afford them, who knows.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I think its more like we are having huge problems funding them,most of the upkeep is fund aided, where the money comes from for muslims to afford them, who knows.


*In all fairness the church of England and the Catholic church are far from hard up.They just like pleading poverty.But thats another thread lol.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *In all fairness the church of England and the Catholic church are far from hard up.They just like pleading poverty.But thats another thread lol.*


Maybe your right ime not really that up to scratch on churches


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Maybe your right ime not really that up to scratch on churches


the congregations must have dropped alarmingly! So suspect they are losing out from collections - but then look at the cost of weddings and funerals etc! then there are then that leave their fortunes to the church!
Don't really think they are poor - but they could be feeling the pinch


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> the congregations must have dropped alarmingly! So suspect they are losing out from collections - but then look at the cost of weddings and funerals etc! then there are then that leave their fortunes to the church!
> Don't really think they are poor - but they could be feeling the pinch


Ile back off from any debate on churches i really dont know much about them. Only that the bloody mosques springing up all over the show annoys me. Oh but i do give to the old dears at our village church when they have their little bizzares and summer fairs, bless them, last year it was for a more efficient heating system.

I might have come across to some as been a bit uncharitable last night as you know but ime not believe me.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I think its more like we are having huge problems funding them,most of the upkeep is fund aided, where the money comes from for muslims to afford them, who knows.


I would imagine their religion like the Christian one is not short of a bob or two..as for public funds helping them out...I wouldn't be at all surprised as they are used for all sorts of reasons apart from meals on wheels and welfare.

I believe that Muslims pay taxes too you know...so I guess they're entitled to their share of the never ending pile of our cash that councillors and MPs are so fond of chucking about like confetti.

Tens of millions of taxpayers money has been used for Royal Opera,Churchill papers,and guineapig breeders in Peru...not exactly the choice of the man in the street.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

poohdog said:


> If I remember correctly unless it's since been altered...a naked woman was 'Disturbing the peace' wheras a naked man was 'Indecent exposure'


there's a difference between naked and only having your top off tho.

the reason there's adifference between men and women in what you've said those is because mens genitals are on show when naken womens aren't unless they're doing some sort of gymnastics will in the nud.


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

What I want to know is how do they smoke their **** through 'em? 
Sorry but I just can't be serious at the moment.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Mr Giz said:


> What I want to know is how do they smoke their **** through 'em?
> Sorry but I just can't be serious at the moment.


they burn a hole through specially.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I think its more like we are having huge problems funding them,most of the upkeep is fund aided, *where the money comes from for muslims to afford them, who knows.*


I really wasn't going to post, trying to be sensible about getting involved in this, but.........from Muslim businesses. Because you see, instead of coming for the benefits and free stuff, Muslim culture has a very strong work ethic, and a tradition (according to the Koran) of donating personal wealth and time to the good of the community.
If your local church is falling down it's because there aren't many churchgoers anymore in our "Christian" country. Religious buildings are funded by religious congregations, not by our taxes (quite right to IMAFO).


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

myshkin said:


> I really wasn't going to post, trying to be sensible about getting involved in this, but.........from Muslim businesses. Because you see, instead of coming for the benefits and free stuff, Muslim culture has a very strong work ethic, and a tradition (according to the Koran) of donating personal wealth and time to the good of the community.
> If your local church is falling down it's because there aren't many churchgoers anymore in our "Christian" country. Religious buildings are funded by religious congregations, not by our taxes (quite right to IMAFO).


Well someone needs to teach that 'work ethic' to the muslims with HUGE families who live round here and sponge off the state! I think they are reading the wrong book


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Well someone needs to teach that 'work ethic' to the muslims with HUGE families who live round here and sponge off the state! I think they are reading the wrong book


If most of em around sheffield work, i want a job like theirs.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> If most of em around sheffield work, i want a job like theirs.


Me too! BUT to be fair (just pointing out i said FAIR and not RACIST) they do have like a hundred people living in a 2 bed terrace..... imagine the income!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Well someone needs to teach that 'work ethic' to the muslims with HUGE families who live round here and sponge off the state! I think they are reading the wrong book


Many non muslims are on benefits however I do hear what you are saying.

My mum's been with a muslim for 9 years, he lives in a completely different town (miles away) with his family (mum, dad, sisters, cousins) and what I will never understand is why he after 9 years wont commit with my mum but went and bought a £400,000 house for him and his family to live in. He's the only one that works. There are 9 people in the house and its a 4 bedroomed house.

His sister says she cant work because she has diabetes, his mum has never worked because (and in his own words) she has bouts in hospital were she is being possessed by the devil and his father quit work a good 10 years ago for no reason when my mums boyfriend bought them the house.

So they all live off my mums boyfriends wage and the benefit money his mum, sister and cousins get.

His sister went and married a guy 2 years ago she had never met him, nor had their family yet she went over for the wedding dispite never meeting him before and when they tried to get him into the country he was refused.

I was shocked.

Yet the guy who lives next door to my mum works, his daughter works and his two sons work, his wife looks after the house but they work damn hard.

Sadly families like my mums boyfriends are more common were my mum lives. The harder working ones well.....are few and far between. I am sure its not like that in every town.


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## Val001 (Aug 25, 2010)

Religeon is all rubbish anyway as far as I am concerned but if Muslims want to leave their country and live in a Christian country which is their choice then they have to abide by our rules end of story. We want to see their faces not a letter box. This country is far too soft to enforce something like that though good for the French thats what I say.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Val001 said:


> Religeon is all rubbish anyway as far as I am concerned but if Muslims want to leave their country and live in a Christian country which is their choice then they have to abide by our rules end of story. We want to see their faces not a letter box. This country is far too soft to enforce something like that though good for the French thats what I say.


but we don't have rules/laws on people covering their faces.. only in places like banks is it 'best' not to as they might be mistaken for robbers and such.

so big fuss about nothing in all honesty. if we put laws in place saying that any face covering unless medically required is not removed in [wherever] (banks, security/checkin points at airport etc) then they are breaking the law.

as mentioned, the burka and the niqab is it? f knows, the other one that covers the face, is merely for the womans own reasons then they should be able to adhere to those laws as they will only need to remove them in certain places and if theydont' like it them don't have to go there.. (internet banking etc). at airports the most people that will see their face is the one checking their passport and possibly a few passersby, hardly the end of the world is it and certanily not agains their bibles rules on modesty.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Well someone needs to teach that 'work ethic' to the muslims with HUGE families who live round here and sponge off the state! I think they are reading the wrong book


Bring that teaching to Oz where they sit and breed


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> Bring that teaching to Oz where they sit and breed


How do they actually get into australia then, dont they have to go through the same process as if the british wanted to live there the job and points system?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> How do they actually get into australia then, dont they have to go through the same process as if the british wanted to live there the job and points system?


lol no but I hear boat trips are cheap thru indonesia


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> lol no but I hear boat trips are cheap thru indonesia


Ha Ha i was hoping for a serious answer


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Ha Ha i was hoping for a serious answer


it was


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Well someone needs to teach that 'work ethic' to the muslims with HUGE families who live round here and sponge off the state! I think they are reading the wrong book


Brilliant argument there, cleverly proving that in fact "we" are paying for mosques by falling back on tired stereotypes. Public money does not pay for places of worship. The complaints about how many mosques are springing up everywhere isn't exactly consistent with the assumption that it's somehow typical of muslims to claim benefits.
I'm from a HUGE family by the way. There is no connection between that and sponging, it's pretty lazy thinking to assume there is.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Brilliant argument there, cleverly proving that in fact "we" are paying for mosques by falling back on tired stereotypes. Public money does not pay for places of worship. The complaints about how many mosques are springing up everywhere isn't exactly consistent with the assumption that it's somehow typical of muslims to claim benefits.
> I'm from a HUGE family by the way. There is no connection between that and sponging, it's pretty lazy thinking to assume there is.


Where have i said that all of them do not work? I havent! I am aware of several huge families round here who dont work or who work and dont declare their working. I am also aware of non muslims doing the same.

I was just pointing out that if the quaran says they have a good work ethic then the people who are sponging off the state then they are not reading the right book.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Where have i said that all of them do not work? I havent! I am aware of several huge families round here who dont work or who work and dont declare their working. I am also aware of non muslims doing the same.
> 
> I was just pointing out that if the quaran says they have a good work ethic then the people who are sponging off the state then they are not reading the right book.


was obvious what you meant


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> it was


Ok not much different to us here then


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> was obvious what you meant


Oh good! For a moment i thought i was speaking a different language


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Where have i said that all of them do not work? I havent! I am aware of several huge families round here who dont work or who work and dont declare their working. I am also aware of non muslims doing the same.
> 
> I was just pointing out that if the quaran says they have a good work ethic then the people who are sponging off the state then they are not reading the right book.





harley bear said:


> Well someone needs to teach that 'work ethic' to the muslims with HUGE families who live round here and sponge off the state! I think they are reading the wrong book


I didn't say you said all of "them" didn't work, I said that you'd rolled out a tired old sterotype. In doing so you made the implication, because that is how people who refer to a huge, varied culture as "them" tend to express their prejudice.

I am not aware that the Koran says that muslims have a good work ethic, and I didn't say it does. What I said was that as a culture Islam has a strong work ethic. Charitable actions are part of the teachings contained in the Koran.

My parents worked very hard to support their HUGE family without ever claiming a penny from the state, but I was always being informed by idle-brained types that we were benefit scroungers. Perhaps that's why I find your lazy assumptions so offensive.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

myshkin said:


> I really wasn't going to post, trying to be sensible about getting involved in this, but.........from Muslim businesses. Because you see, instead of coming for the benefits and free stuff, Muslim culture has a very strong work ethic, and a tradition (according to the Koran) of donating personal wealth and time to the good of the community.
> If your local church is falling down it's because there aren't many churchgoers anymore in our "Christian" country. Religious buildings are funded by religious congregations, not by our taxes (quite right to IMAFO).





myshkin said:


> I didn't say you said all of "them" didn't work, I said that you'd rolled out a tired old sterotype. In doing so you made the implication, because that is how people who refer to a huge, varied culture as "them" tend to express their prejudice.
> 
> I am not aware that the Koran says that muslims have a good work ethic, and I didn't say it does. What I said was that as a culture Islam has a strong work ethic. Charitable actions are part of the teachings contained in the Koran.
> 
> My parents worked very hard to support their HUGE family without ever claiming a penny from the state, but I was always being informed by idle-brained types that we were benefit scroungers. Perhaps that's why I find your lazy assumptions so offensive.


You cant argue with what YOU wrote :nono:


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## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

i have no problem with the face covering in general however i would if i had to speak to someone wearing one purly as i have bad hearing and lip read a lot so i need to see the mouth odviously causing a problem.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

ok,this apparent dislike of muslims...remember the elderly couple who were held hostage in somalia recently?....who does everyone think payed the ransom to free them?.....it was somalians living in britain,somalians are muslims....the muslim council of britain were the first to throw money in haiti's direction as well


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

harley bear said:


> You cant argue with what YOU wrote :nono:


No, I can't.
The comma before the "and" - it separates the two parts of the sentence, showing that the second part relates to the words in brackets, unlike the first part of the sentence, which is my own assertion. If I was stating that both characteristics were related to the Koran, then the comma would be completely unecessary and an example of very bad punctuation. However, as it stands it says exactly what I meant it to say. Who says standards of English are slipping, eh? 

_Muslim culture has a very strong work ethic, and a tradition (according to the Koran)_


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

myshkin said:


> I really wasn't going to post, trying to be sensible about getting involved in this, but.........from Muslim businesses. Because you see, instead of coming for the benefits and free stuff, Muslim culture has a very strong work ethic, and a tradition (according to the Koran) of donating personal wealth and time to the good of the community.
> If your local church is falling down it's because there aren't many churchgoers anymore in our "Christian" country. Religious buildings are funded by religious congregations, not by our taxes (quite right to IMAFO).





myshkin said:


> I didn't say you said all of "them" didn't work, I said that you'd rolled out a tired old sterotype. In doing so you made the implication, because that is how people who refer to a huge, varied culture as "them" tend to express their prejudice.
> 
> I am not aware that the Koran says that muslims have a good work ethic, and I didn't say it does. What I said was that as a culture Islam has a strong work ethic. Charitable actions are part of the teachings contained in the Koran.
> 
> My parents worked very hard to support their HUGE family without ever claiming a penny from the state, but I was always being informed by idle-brained types that we were benefit scroungers. Perhaps that's why I find your lazy assumptions so offensive.


You seem to be contradicting yourself


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Erm, no I'm not. Your grasp of English punctuation could do with a brush up though.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Erm, no I'm not. Your grasp of English punctuation could do with a brush up though.


And you need to learn to spell :dita:


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Me too! BUT to be fair (just pointing out i said FAIR and not RACIST) they do have like a hundred people living in a 2 bed terrace..... imagine the income!


Now that is one sore point with me! Why is it that amount of people (irrespective of race or relegion) can live in one tiny house paying a lower rate of council tax . summat tells me that we (certainly I am) subsidising their contributions coz sure as hel they get a hell of a lot more out of the community then I do. the rubbish for a start - twenty folk are going to produce a hell of a lot more rubbish then OH and I
DT


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

harley bear said:


> And you need to learn to spell :dita:


Thay hav the same dicktory has me I fink


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Now that is one sore point with me! Why is it that amount of people (irrespective of race or relegion) can live in one tiny house paying a lower rate of council tax . summat tells me that we (certainly I am) subsidising their contributions coz sure as hel they get a hell of a lot more out of the community then I do. the rubbish for a start - twenty folk are going to produce a hell of a lot more rubbish then OH and I
> DT


I have another REALLY sore point.... there are places round here where non english speaking people can go and get their benefit forms filled in!!!!! If you cant be bothered to learn the native language then you sure as hell aint looking for work!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Oh good! For a moment i thought i was speaking a different language


You soon wil be mate


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

If i say what i think about the whole "20 people living in a 2 bed house situation i will get called "Racist"!!!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You soon wil be mate


AAAA me do not tink so


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

harley bear said:


> I have another REALLY sore point.... there are places round here where non english speaking people can go and get their benefit forms filled in!!!!! If you cant be bothered to learn the native language then you sure as hell aint looking for work!


yep exactly


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

harley bear said:


> I have another REALLY sore point.... there are places round here where non english speaking people can go and get their benefit forms filled in!!!!! If you cant be bothered to learn the native language then you sure as hell aint looking for work!


Hey! and have you noticed if you cannot understand it and need it in punjabi, swaziland , austraillian land of nod or whatever you get a 0800 number! Us eejits we get an 0845 number summat up up there me finks!


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

KathrynH said:


> If i say what i think about the whole "20 people living in a 2 bed house situation i will get called "Racist"!!!


nah screw the pc club, say it while ya still can


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! and have you noticed if you cannot understand it and need it in punjabi, swaziland , austraillian land of nod or whatever you get a 0800 number! Us eejits we get an 0845 number summat up up there me finks!


Yeah there is summat up .... its a friggin joke but if you disagree with the crap that is carrying on in this country your labled a racist!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> If i say what i think about the whole "20 people living in a 2 bed house situation i will get called "Racist"!!!


I actually did write to my MP recently KAth, as our council tax is horrific, we are on a very very low income with no benifits whatsover (not that we expect any) but out rates and water total a third of our current income!

I did get a reply -but lets just say although it was agreeing that it was non commital and altoough not ideal we were in the 'minority'!


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Yeah there is summat up .... its a friggin joke but if you disagree with the crap that is carrying on in this country your labled a racist!


funny that isnt it, and if thats what label I need to have an opinion then i'll wear it


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

harley bear said:


> I have another REALLY sore point.... there are places round here where non english speaking people can go and get their benefit forms filled in!!!!! If you cant be bothered to learn the native language then you sure as hell aint looking for work!


Or learn the language instead and then they may be able to find work over here or go back to there own country and then they can speak what they like.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> funny that isnt it, and if thats what label I need to have an opinion then i'll wear it


Yep, me too! I say things as i see them. There is a problem with our immigration system, there is a problem with council housing being kept for immigrants and not being let out on a first come first serve basis and its wrong!
People pay taxes all their lives and get treated like crap! Yet people walk into this country sit on their arses and claim off the state.

I dont have a problem with anyone as long as they pay theor own way and dont have their bloody hands out!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I actually did write to my MP recently KAth, as our council tax is horrific, we are on a very very low income with no benifits whatsover (not that we expect any) but out rates and water total a third of our current income!
> 
> I did get a reply -but lets just say although it was agreeing that it was non commital and altoough not ideal we were in the 'minority'!


Why doesnt that surprise me hey DT.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

harley bear said:


> And you need to learn to spell :dita:


:lol::lol::lol:

Where have* i *said that all of them do not work? I *havent*! I am aware of several huge families round here who *dont* work or who work and *dont* declare *their* working. I am also aware of non muslims doing the same.

I was just pointing out that if the *quaran* says they have a good work ethic then the people who are *sponging *off the state *then they* are not reading the right book.

Mistakes highlighted in bold for you. Pots and kettles, etc.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> Or learn the language instead and then they may be able to find work over here or go back to there own country and then they can speak what they like.


Can you imagine how much public money is paid on hopitals (to have these babies) child care, family allowance, schooling, specail teachers because they have not been taught english in the the home! The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on ------ can someone take over please!

Lets put it another way! there are SOME that put a lot less in then they get out!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Just curious if many of you live in communities with muslims? I live in an area with thousands of muslims and a couple of local mosques and it's heavily ghettoised. The only time the ones we see acknowledge us is to disapprove of our dog. In my own experience, I find the burka and niqab act as a barrier, but this doesn't mean I'd call for an all out ban. I find it easier to converse with someone in a chador, which is less imposing and tends to be what a lot of the Somali muslim women wear around here, I don't know if that's just personal preference/due to cultural reasons?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

shibby said:


> Just curious if many of you live in communities with muslims? I live in an area with thousands of muslims and a couple of local mosques and it's heavily ghettoised. The only time the ones we see acknowledge us is to disapprove of our dog. In my own experience, I find the burka and niqab act as a barrier, but this doesn't mean I'd call for an all out ban. I find it easier to converse with someone in a chador, which is less imposing and tends to be what a lot of the Somali muslim women wear around here, I don't know if that's just personal preference/due to cultural reasons?


Not any more, but for most of my adult life I lived in areas of Manchester where white kids tended to be in the minority in schools. Truthfully, my muslim neighbours tended to be more respectful and community minded, the social problems where I lived were associated with, white, jobless yoof. Not suggesting my experience is true for everywhere, just that my muslim neighbours were the ones who sent Christmas cards to all the street, small presents of chocolates when they had a baby, little gestures of community like this that are often absent in a city.

The burka and niquab trouble me, purely for the implications they have for the status of women. I wouldn't see an all out ban either (and I have muslim female friends who disagree with me) mainly because if someone was forced by her family to wear the full covering, a ban would result in a greater loss of freedom for them. And because it will create martyrs and consequently more wearing of this kind of head covering, when the reality is that very few European muslims want to wear them.


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

shibby said:


> Just curious if many of you live in communities with muslims? I live in an area with thousands of muslims and a couple of local mosques and it's heavily ghettoised.


Where I grew up was predominantly Asian, mainly Muslim and Sikh. Aside from a few problems between teenage boys of those two religions I couldn't describe it as ghettoized at all. The largely white estates on the other hand..



myshkin said:


> I wouldn't see an all out ban either (and I have muslim female friends who disagree with me) mainly because if someone was forced by her family to wear the full covering, a ban would result in a greater loss of freedom for them.


Exactly.

I'd totally support a _law_ which meant the facial coverings had to be removed in certain places, but not one which bans one specific type of facial covering everywhere.

Which is another point, why ban just the burkha if not being able to see a face is the big problem? Surely you need to ban any masks as well? Just in case someone felt intimidated.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> Which is another point, why ban just the burkha if not being able to see a face is the big problem? Surely you need to ban any masks as well? Just in case someone felt intimidated.


Um! but I think you will perhaps find that most face coverings ARE banned in public places, forgetting halloweon or party celebrations cannot think of any other type of facemask that we see on a daily basis in the UK, would you like to tell us which 'masks' we would need to ban?


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> Where I grew up was predominantly Asian, mainly Muslim and Sikh. Aside from a few problems between teenage boys of those two religions I couldn't describe it as ghettoized at all. The largely white estates on the other hand..
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> ...


Sorry what is the matter with the white estates?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I have a friend that works for the housing dept in a very highly populated muslim area and a few years ago found a young single mother(british) claiming rent as a single parent whe she had a partner staying she had over 2 years money to pay back in instalments, this happened quite a while later to a muslim girl had 4 members of her family with her and her brother who was in full time employment moved in, they wouldnt persue this as the authority said they would be accused of racism and it would be more trouble than what it was worth, they would claim they didnt understand or they didnt understand the rules of claiming free housing as it had happend numerous times before, so she didnt have 1 penny to pay back, why should we feel backed into a corner because again the racist card is played.


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> Sorry what is the matter with the white estates?


Where I lived they weren't the nicest places to walk through. Whereas the Asian areas were safe to walk through. I was just pointing out that one person's experience of Muslim areas being "ghettoized" wasn't the same everywhere.



DoubleTrouble said:


> Um! but I think you will perhaps find that most face coverings ARE banned in public places, forgetting halloweon or party celebrations cannot think of any other type of facemask that we see on a daily basis in the UK, would you like to tell us which 'masks' we would need to ban?


They really aren't, there is no law against going out in a mask as far as I am aware. Or a balaclava. Or a veil. Or anything else that covers the face.

Like I said before, is it the covering of the face that is the problem? Or just that it is from a different culture?


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I have a friend that works for the housing dept in a very highly populated muslim area and a few years ago found a young single mother(british) claiming rent as a single parent whe she had a partner staying she had over 2 years money to pay back in instalments, this happened quite a while later to a muslim girl had 4 members of her family with her and her brother who was in full time employment moved in, they wouldnt persue this as the authority said they would be accused of racism and it would be more trouble than what it was worth, they would claim they didnt understand or they didnt understand the rules of claiming free housing as it had happend numerous times before, so she didnt have 1 penny to pay back, why should we feel backed into a corner because again the racist card is played.


Because my dear friend! That card now happens to be the highest in the pack!

and there is also the issue (may be a pf member if I remember right) Has two children by her muslin boyfriend She is/was about seven months pregnant and he would not give her one single penny to feed either herself or HIS children! and was forcing! yep I said FORCING her to work! (t'is what they are good at) She went and told his parents ! and he beat her I think! can anyone remember this - sure we discussed it!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

KathrynH said:


> Sorry what is the matter with the white estates?


In Manchester some of them are notorious no-go areas, for the general public, for the police....
Dog-fighting (I've heard it, the worst thing I ever heard), known crime families (one of whom is quite famous as a singer), appalling intimidation and harassment from kids who are untouchable because of who they are related to, regular armed raids for weapons and drugs farms, dogs and kids roaming the streets uncared for. I've lived there. Most of the white Mancunians are scared of going to these ghetto areas.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> Where I lived they weren't the nicest places to walk through. Whereas the Asian areas were safe to walk through. I was just pointing out that one person's experience of Muslim areas being "ghettoized" wasn't the same everywhere.
> 
> They really aren't, there is no law against going out in a mask as far as I am aware. Or a balaclava. Or a veil. Or anything else that covers the face.
> 
> Like I said before, is it the covering of the face that is the problem? Or just that it is from a different culture?


There are places like that all over the UK, and they are ALL different race cultures not just "whites" as you so put it.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

KalokiMallow said:


> Where I lived they weren't the nicest places to walk through. Whereas the Asian areas were safe to walk through. I was just pointing out that one person's experience of Muslim areas being "ghettoized" wasn't the same everywhere.
> 
> They really aren't, there is no law against going out in a mask as far as I am aware. Or a balaclava. Or a veil. Or anything else that covers the face.
> 
> Like I said before, is it the covering of the face that is the problem? Or just that it is from a different culture?


Correction! The balaclava is banned from MOST public places - albeit not legally - but you are asked to remove it or be removed from the premises! The is a post going way back regarding a young child in a pushchair whose guardians were asked to remove his balaclava in a shopping centre because that was 'there' rules!
BUT! that is the brunt of the problem really isn't it? We are asked to remove something AND oblidge! there are some that are asked the same and refuse pulling the racist card! PErsonally had enough of it and all the do gooders that tell us how evil we are for wanting this! 
So there you have it! call me racist if you like! I have thick skin and can live with it!


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## KalokiMallow (Mar 30, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> There are places like that all over the UK, and they are ALL different race cultures not just "whites" as you so put it.


Yeah.. that was my point.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Live and let live I say ...


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

KalokiMallow said:


> Where I grew up was predominantly Asian, mainly Muslim and Sikh. Aside from a few problems between teenage boys of those two religions I couldn't describe it as ghettoized at all. The largely white estates on the other hand..
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> ...





KalokiMallow said:


> Where I lived they weren't the nicest places to walk through. Whereas the Asian areas were safe to walk through. I was just pointing out that one person's experience of Muslim areas being "ghettoized" wasn't the same everywhere.
> 
> They really aren't, there is no law against going out in a mask as far as I am aware. Or a balaclava. Or a veil. Or anything else that covers the face.
> 
> Like I said before, is it the covering of the face that is the problem? Or just that it is from a different culture?


It really does seems like you're trying to make out people are Islamophobic for being unwelcoming towards the burka. Whilst you may not describe where you grew up as ghettoised, my current neighbourhood most definitely is and happens to be one of the largest Muslim communities in the country. And ghettoised as in they isolate themselves from the rest of the community, not as in a crime ridden ghetto. Also, it was a post about my neighbourhood, I was not generalising all predominantly Muslim communities.

People have actually been arrested for refusing to remove balaclavas in public before and how many people do you see in masks on a daily basis?  Covering ones entire face is not the norm in the UK, so why are people _so_ surprised when others are intimidated by this and try to make out like they've got a nasty hidden agenda? Whilst there are people who do hold xenophobic beliefs, it is not the case for everyone. But it seems a lot of people have problems accepting that without trying to paint them as BNP supporters.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

shibby said:


> *It really does seems like you're trying to make out people are Islamophobic for being unwelcoming towards the burka*. Whilst you may not describe where you grew up as ghettoised, my current neighbourhood most definitely is and happens to be one of the largest Muslim communities in the country. And ghettoised as in they isolate themselves from the rest of the community, not as in a crime ridden ghetto. Also, it was a post about my neighbourhood, I was not generalising all predominantly Muslim communities.
> 
> People have actually been arrested for refusing to remove balaclavas in public before and how many people do you see in masks on a daily basis?  Covering ones entire face is not the norm in the UK, so why are people _so_ surprised when others are intimidated by this and try to make out like they've got a nasty hidden agenda? Whilst there are people who do hold xenophobic beliefs, it is not the case for everyone. But it seems a lot of people have problems accepting that without trying to paint them as BNP supporters.


The OP may not have meant this but I think alot of people who posted on this thread are. You only have to look at past threads where muslims are mentioned to read the same old tired, stereotyped opinions of muslims taking 'our' jobs, 'our' houses, using 'our' NHS, blah, blah, blah!

There have been a couple of really good posts regarding banning of burkhas with good arguements but most aren't


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Because my dear friend! That card now happens to be the highest in the pack!
> 
> and there is also the issue (may be a pf member if I remember right) Has two children by her muslin boyfriend She is/was about seven months pregnant and he would not give her one single penny to feed either herself or HIS children! and was forcing! yep I said FORCING her to work! (t'is what they are good at) She went and told his parents ! and he beat her I think! can anyone remember this - sure we discussed it!


I think it might have been because i remember posting this story.

My husbands cousins daughter met a muslim young man she was 18 at the time, now i will cut this short as it could go on forever.
By the time she was 20 she had 3 children 1 immediately after the other and had 2 abortions(wrong sex) they were she was made to cover up head to toe, she was not allowed out of the house only if he was with her she was locked in the house 24/7 she was basically a slave now they claimed they came to this country to escape the fear of slavery and imprisonment and thats what he and his family has brought over with them and done to that girl, she was basically a baby machine and a slave to the other male members 6 i think living in the house as well. She was cut off from the whole of her family, she was brainwashed beyond belief, her dad went numerous times and everytime the police was called, one night on a last ditch attempt to free his daughter he broke down the door the poilce was called and he only just escaped jail, everything came down on their side the muslim family, because she was so scared to say anything it assumed she was happy to be there, how would any british girl be happy with that, she was unrecognisable and completely brainwashed.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I think it might have been because i remember posting this story.
> 
> My husbands cousins daughter met a muslim young man she was 18 at the time, now i will cut this short as it could go on forever.
> By the time she was 20 she had 3 children 1 immediately after the other and had 2 abortions(wrong sex) they were she was made to cover up head to toe, she was not allowed out of the house only if he was with her she was locked in the house 24/7 she was basically a slave now they claimed they came to this country to escape the fear of slavery and imprisonment and thats what he and his family has brought over with them and done to that girl, she was basically a baby machine and a slave to the other male members 6 i think living in the house as well. She was cut off from the whole of her family, she was brainwashed beyond belief, her dad went numerous times and everytime the police was called, one night on a last ditch attempt to free his daughter he broke down the door the poilce was called and he only just escaped jail, everything came down on their side the muslim family, because she was so scared to say anything it assumed she was happy to be there, how would any british girl be happy with that, she was unrecognisable and completely brainwashed.


There are plenty of white british women who live in fear of their husbands. Most things apply to all societies. Good and Bad in every culture  We are far from perfect as a race and as soon as we ditch the superiority complex and sort out our own back yard instead of enforcing our moral high ground on the rest of the world we might start making some progress as human beings 

Thats just how i see it


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> There are plenty of white british women who live in fear of their husbands. Most things apply to all societies. Good and Bad in every culture  We are far from perfect as a race and as soon as we ditch the superiority complex and sort out our own back yard instead of enforcing our moral high ground on the rest of the world we might start making some progress as human beings
> 
> Thats just how i see it


No moral high ground here rainybows T'is the full face burqa we are on about! The french government have found the balls to enforce the ban! Bout time some of of sops grew a pair too! (of balls that is)


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> There are plenty of white british women who live in fear of their husbands. Most things apply to all societies. Good and Bad in every culture  We are far from perfect as a race and as soon as we ditch the superiority complex and sort out our own back yard instead of enforcing our moral high ground on the rest of the world we might start making some progress as human beings
> 
> Thats just how i see it


Oh i agree yes there is a huge problem of domestic violence and the likes with the british most definetly, the difference is and what i wrote was only a very small proportion of what happened to her but if authorities was called, social services was involved then they could do something about the abuse, the way they lived for a british family it would it would be clear the home environment wasnt right and with the consent of the woman something could be done, but thats where the difference is because of the way they lived it was seen as "the norm" that was their culture and that had to be accepted, unless she spoke out there was no cause for concern, the slavery, the home situation was said to be "normal" for them.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Hey Rainybows!
I have a question that is specific for you here!

Firstly, I think we know that the burqa is NOT required to be worn as a relegious symbel - full face coverings are worn out of either choice or because the man insists! are we right so far??

Now do you remember a little boy is a pushchair is a shopping centres whose guardians were asked to remove his balaclavia? Can you remembr that?


Because,, THAT is the problem, if these people removed this item if and when requested there would be NO need for a ban! But the problem is they play either the racist or the relegion card! And that is bang out of order!
Ban the Burqa - thats my view! In ALL of europe!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey Rainybows!
> I have a question that is specific for you here!
> 
> Firstly, I think we know that the burqa is NOT required to be worn as a relegious symbel - full face coverings are worn out of either choice or because the man insists! are we right so far??
> ...


Can I come out of the shed now please Or do I have to hide in here a little longer


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Can I come out of the shed now please Or do I have to hide in here a little longer


:nono: you have to stay in there now lol


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Can I come out of the shed now please Or do I have to hide in here a little longer


If you promise to be a good girl you can come out


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

harley bear said:


> :nono: you have to stay in there now lol





haeveymolly said:


> If you promise to be a good girl you can come out


I'm not in here out of choice you know! I am hiding from that Rainybow and have been allday

But t'is looking like she has gone 'soft' in her old age


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I'm not in here out of choice you know! I am hiding from that Rainybow and have been allday
> 
> But t'is looking like she has gone 'soft' in her old age


 shes waiting and as soon as well let you out she will POUNCE!!!!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> shes waiting and as soon as well let you out she will POUNCE!!!!


Nah! she's gone soft in her old age! Or she is ogling firemen Or perhaps she has gone to her holiday haven
I am safe!


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## Val001 (Aug 25, 2010)

owieprone said:


> but we don't have rules/laws on people covering their faces.. only in places like banks is it 'best' not to as they might be mistaken for robbers and such.
> 
> so big fuss about nothing in all honesty. if we put laws in place saying that any face covering unless medically required is not removed in [wherever] (banks, security/checkin points at airport etc) then they are breaking the law.
> 
> as mentioned, the burka and the niqab is it? f knows, the other one that covers the face, is merely for the womans own reasons then they should be able to adhere to those laws as they will only need to remove them in certain places and if theydont' like it them don't have to go there.. (internet banking etc). at airports the most people that will see their face is the one checking their passport and possibly a few passersby, hardly the end of the world is it and certanily not agains their bibles rules on modesty.


The thread was about France making the rule which is what I meant and I would agree with us doing it as well but it won't happen. I would welcome as many european countries as possible making the rule personally. Ban the walking letter boxes in western europe thats what I say. If they don't like it then they should go back from whence they came.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Val001 said:


> . Ban the walking letter boxes in western europe thats what I say. .


OMG let us hope they never start wearing red burqas eh



Royal mail lose enuff mail now as it is!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Nah! she's gone soft in her old age! Or she is ogling firemen Or perhaps she has gone to her holiday haven
> I am safe!


Well you have to stay there until as many has had a chance to vote on what we are going to do with you so unfortunately you are there for a while yet. You cant vote on the poll by the way.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Val001 said:


> The thread was about France making the rule which is what I meant and I would agree with us doing it as well but it won't happen. I would welcome as many european countries as possible making the rule personally. Ban the walking letter boxes in western europe thats what I say. If they don't like it then they should go back from whence they came.


i know what the thread was about.

i was replying to someone elses thread about britain following frances stance, which is quoted in that particular post of mine.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> The OP may not have meant this but I think alot of people who posted on this thread are. You only have to look at past threads where muslims are mentioned to read the same old tired, stereotyped opinions of muslims taking 'our' jobs, 'our' houses, using 'our' NHS, blah, blah, blah!
> 
> There have been a couple of really good posts regarding banning of burkhas with good arguements but most aren't


Sure, but not being in favour of the burka doesn't equate to this and a few people on here are seeing things in a very black and white fashion i.e. if you're not pro-burka you're Islamaphobic  It's not one or the other. For example, I never mentioned anything about banning the burka in my first post and I couldn't say I'd approve of a ban, however, I received a response based on me being for an all out ban :crazy: Talk about jumping to conclusions! I find it difficult to have a rational discussion with people like that.

And I'm also aware of some of the previous threads regarding the issues you mentioned and people have come across as absolute bigots. But this is not always the case and if one cannot accept people have differing views, that have no nasty hidden agenda behind them, then they're not being as open minded as they'd like to think. For me, the burka is not something I approve of (for various reasons), however, I would not treat a woman in a burka any less than anyone else because of this.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

shibby said:


> Sure, but not being in favour of the burka doesn't equate to this and a few people on here are seeing things in a very black and white fashion i.e. if you're not pro-burka you're Islamaphobic  It's not one or the other. For example, I never mentioned anything about banning the burka in my first post and I couldn't say I'd approve of a ban, however, I received a response based on me being for an all out ban :crazy: Talk about jumping to conclusions! I find it difficult to have a rational discussion with people like that.
> 
> And I'm also aware of some of the previous threads regarding the issues you mentioned and people have come across as absolute bigots. But this is not always the case and if one cannot accept people have differing views, that have no nasty hidden agenda behind them, then they're not being as open minded as they'd like to think. For me, the burka is not something I approve of (for various reasons), however, I would not treat a woman in a burka any less than anyone else because of this.


I dont think it should come to an all out ban tbh, the only people that will cause the ban are the wearers themselves.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lol sorry easter hols so time on here is short, you can come out DT. I was making a point about the fear thing and then making the point i always do in that every culture has good and bad stuff in it, who are we to be the moral police of the world (and i mean WE in the sense of the fact that our Government seems to think we as a country are) What makes us think we have it so right  women are still opressed and living in fear, children are still beaten and living in poverty, drug taking seems now recreational to most areas and crime isn't exactly at an all time low, teen pregnancy one of the highest in Europe etc etc ?? So i throw it back to you, what is so right about the way we live ??

Regards the Burkha, it doesn't bother me BUt i don't live in an area where it is very common so i do appreciate that may alter a persons view however i don't believe in special rules therefore where it is illegal in this country to wear say "a balaclava" then the same should apply to a Burkha but an out and out ban eems pointless and petty IMO.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Regards the Burkha, it doesn't bother me BUt i don't live in an area where it is very common so i do appreciate that may alter a persons view however i don't believe in special rules therefore where it is illegal in this country to wear say "a balaclava" then the same should apply to a Burkha but an out and out ban eems pointless and petty IMO.


does that mean I was right then? Rainybows gone soft


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> does that mean I was right then? Rainybows gone soft


No not soft i just have what i consider to be a fair take on life (you should know that )

I am not a fan of injustice or unfairness and again that applies to all races religions and walks of life 

I also believe in live and let live and hate petty burocracy therefore i fail to see why there is no happy medium in all this


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> No not soft i just have what i consider to be a fair take on life (you should know that )
> 
> I am not a fan of injustice or unfairness and again that applies to all races religions and walks of life
> 
> I also believe in live and let live and hate petty burocracy therefore i fail to see why there is no happy medium in all this


Us simple folk ask for nothing that is not beyond reasonable Rainybows! remove the burqa in public areas where security is at risk - i'e banks, airports etc! And STOP pulling the race card when it suits! - because it really is getting a little repetitive!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Us simple folk ask for nothing that is not beyond reasonable Rainybows! remove the burqa in public areas where security is at risk - i'e banks, airports etc! And STOP pulling the race card when it suits! - because it really is getting a little repetitive!


Have you considered that rather than "pulling the race card" they are fighting for something they truly believe in ???

I actually think all this fuss is a very negative thing tbh as more and more young girls are taking to wearing the Burkha as a sign of defiance and in support if their religion (bit like woman burning their bras for our votes ) which i think is a big step backwards


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

shibby said:


> Sure, but not being in favour of the burka doesn't equate to this and a few people on here are seeing things in a very black and white fashion i.e. if you're not pro-burka you're Islamaphobic  It's not one or the other. For example, I never mentioned anything about banning the burka in my first post and I couldn't say I'd approve of a ban, however,* I received a response based on me being for an all out ban* :crazy: Talk about jumping to conclusions! I find it difficult to have a rational discussion with people like that.
> 
> And I'm also aware of some of the previous threads regarding the issues you mentioned and people have come across as absolute bigots. But this is not always the case and if one cannot accept people have differing views, that have no nasty hidden agenda behind them, then they're not being as open minded as they'd like to think.* For me, the burka is not something I approve of (for various reasons), however, I would not treat a woman in a burka any less than anyone else because of this*.


I didn't read your posts to mean you're bigoted: I too am uncomfortable with what the burka signifies. So to me, anti-burka does* not* mean Islamophobic.
I _do_ assume bigotry when I see/hear certain words and phrases though: "They"; "Them"; "Go back to where they came from"; "all on benefits"; "none of them can be bothered speaking English"; "we won't be speaking English soon" etc. 
Or, to clarify for the benefit of the sudden rushes of posters demanding to know when they said those exact words, variations on the themes above. 
Some of the posters on this thread (not you) have used the above signifiers, 
which in my personal opinion suggest that their support for a ban isn't based on any rational thought process, or concern for women's rights, or even a real understanding of why the burka makes them uncomfortable. Truth is, it's because it's foreign.

As a by the way, it was interesting to see who responded when you asked who actually had experience of living among muslim communities, and how those answers (yours included) correlated with attitudes to this discussion.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Have you considered that rather than "pulling the race card" they are fighting for something they truly believe in ???
> 
> I actually think all this fuss is a very negative thing tbh as more and more young girls are taking to wearing the Burkha as a sign of defiance and in support if their religion (bit like woman burning their bras for our votes ) which i think is a big step backwards


Nope Rainybows! can't buy that one! T;is not in their relegion that they have to wear one! They have to cover their hair and their shoulders, and I can live with that! stange as it may seem I have and did do that myself on many occassions when is India !

And as for the 'burning the bra' comparrison! there is non! if as many claim the Burqa is worn by either choice of force then this can hardly be viewed as a demonstration of defience.
DT


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I forgot to say: Rainybow for PM please, you'd have my vote.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I forgot to say: Rainybow for PM please, you'd have my vote.


DT will be the opposition leader!! NO contest! eh Rainybows


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> DT will be the opposition leader!! NO contest! eh Rainybows


Heh. There's a leadership debate worth tuning in for. Do it as a Gladiator-style knock out fight, with giant cotton buds.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Heh. There's a leadership debate worth tuning in for. Do it as a Gladiator-style knock out fight, with giant cotton buds.


Yes please! but my cotton is a lead weight in disguise! You up for it rainybows


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yes please! but my cotton is a lead weight in disguise! You up for it rainybows


Definately but you have an unfair advantage coz i drank all the gin in your shed ((hic))


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Definately but you have an unfair advantage coz i drank all the gin in your shed ((hic))


T'is OK rainybows! can wait for you to sober up!
Besides - it weren't gin! it were peee


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I think drunk beats lead in fight stakes. That John Prescot looks like he can put away a pint or two, and I wouldn't fancy fisticuffs with him.
Drunk gladiator shenanigans. Brill.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

myshkin said:


> I think drunk beats lead in fight stakes. That John Prescot looks like he can put away a pint or two, and I wouldn't fancy fisticuffs with him.
> Drunk gladiator shenanigans. Brill.


I have "gladiatoresque" shoulders (used to hold the shot putt record at school) so reckon i can handle it


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have "gladiatoresque" shoulders (used to hold the shot putt record at school) so reckon i can handle it


no match for my shoulder pads! they are made of iron!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> no match for my shoulder pads! they are made of iron!


thought that was your knickers


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> thought that was your knickers


Nah! they are made of the stongest metal known to men! just can't remember what it is!


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