# New member needs old ratty advice



## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Hello everyone, I've been trying to find a rat forum to join for ages but they're all shut down or not accepting registrations due to spamming. Argh! So here I am, finally found this place!
I have 5 rats currently (and a previous 3 now passed), one of which has degeneration in his hind legs. He has been to the vets, but no help to be had there, unfortunately. He seems to have lost a LOT of strength in his front limbs too now, and is struggling to move without assistance. He *can* get about, but needs some serious modifications to his cage so I don't have to monitor him 24 hours a day and spoon feed him as he can't hold his food anymore.
Anyway, I am really keen to hear from any of you who have experience with elderly rats, and some ideas for what to do about his cage. He shares it with two other podgy old boys, and two youngsters (who are too boisterous for him and currently in another cage to keep him from being pestered), so I'm in a quandary as to how to modify the cage. I don't really want to move him out, as he loves to snuggle with his mates and they protect and groom him all the time  But would a one-tier cage really be fair on 4 healthy boys?
I also had one other question which I'm DESPERATE to get an answer to. What is the accepted *humane* method of euthanasia for rats? I have had two put down in the past, and was only there with one of them. I was deeply concerned with the way it was done and wondered if I have reason to suspect he was in pain or if I'm just being too soft about it. The vet gave him an injection to sedate him, and waited a few minutes. He took his toe and pressed his fingernails into it to see if he would move it, and he did but only a little. One jerk. I really really wanted to stop it all right there as I was SURE he could feel the pain still but just couldn't move to stop it. His eyes were open, and so I'm sure that wasn't anaesthesia as surely he'd have been asleep? I read that *not* anaesthetising them before the heart needle is classed as inhumane. Should I bring this up with the vet should my current elderly boy need to be pts? 
Thanks so much for your patience, I'm a bit befuddled with it all at the moment, so I hope I made sense!

Nice to meet you all,
Alison xxx


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Hi alison and ratties have u tried this forum Fancy Rats • Index page
It's a very good rat forum I'm on there and you'd get a lot more help from that one.
I'd put more hammocks and shelves in to help him get about.
I used to have 2 oldboys and I transferef them to a 100cm long rabbit cage andput in ferplast shelves ladders and 5 hammocks placed about so it was easy for them to get on the move.
Amy.


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## Vicampo (Aug 28, 2011)

I might be wrong but I think vet give them some gas before injecting the heart. The last rat I took to the vet injected her with some anaesthetic into a vein to send her to sleep then injected direct into the heart. It was very peaceful and she didnt struggle at all.

Dont worry if their eyes are open, they can sleep with their eyes open. Many of my rats do and it frightens the life out of me sometimes!

My view on when the time is right. Well its a hard one as no-one likes to choose when their pet passes, but I always go on the basis that when they can no longer do ratty things, like move about easily, eat, and clean themselves. But as I say thats just my view and we all have an opinion 

I think putting all your rats in a one level cage wont be detrimental to the younger ones if you put hammocks in there. It gives them a chase to "ping" up and down rather than wander along the base all day.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Hiya, my two old boys are going through the same thing. It's so sad when they get old isn't it? Rufus is still very determined though, and hauls himself around. I've put them in a rabbit cage with a large floorspace and no levels, they have a dish of water as well as their bottle so they always have access no matter what, and their mix is in a small, low sided bowl-I also scatter some in their sleeping compartment to make sure Rufus can graze on something as Seamus still gets around a bit better.


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## Jarhead (Jul 11, 2011)

When we have had rodents put to sleep when they were old and couldnt move thevet said they anaethetic them first. Id make sure you had a vet that did that.

On a brighter note 117 a degu. Had trouble with his legs he had to use his front paws for standing. We twisted and tied strips of jeans and curten and mede rungs in the cage so he could get everywhere. We also moved the hamock down in case he fell.

So we were his paws. So we held his treats anf food He was fine and still ran around and climb up on his house using a carpet tube. Anyway he had trouble eating big food after 6 months so we chopped salad small and put in a coffee lid. He could eat avocado. We chopped big treats and dried food with a pill cutter. After another 6 month we lost him in his sleep he was 8, thats old. 

He was still running around but loved eating and sleeping on me more. 


S


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Hello again everyone,
I cannot thank you all enough for the advice and also for your stories. Last night I decided to take their two-tier cage apart so it was only one level. I quickly sewed together a snuggle bag for them to sleep in for the night while I thought about permanent solutions. That rabbit hutch idea is simply superb, I will definitely do that! I have such problems getting everything the boys love into the cage when there is such little floor space! The problem is each rat has their own favourite of everything, so it requires a lot of planning getting it all in!
Freddy (hind leg floppy boy) desperately needs his back claws trimmed but I've chickened out of doing it twice now as he struggles and I'm scared of him pulling away as I press the clippers down and breaking one of his toes :-( So because of his long claws he can no longer come out onto the carpet as he gets stuck with every step. 
He finds the litter in the cage (Yesterday's News) too much to deal with, too, as it's slippery and it rolls under his feet. I really need to change it, what do you all use? I used to use Carefresh but it was very expensive and my local pet shop only sells small bags. Grr! I've tried putting a towel in the cage instead of litter, but I just don't have enough towels (or good enough weather at the moment!) to get them a fresh one each night and obviously it gets stinking within a few hours. Ohhhh the joys of pets, eh? :-D

Oh, and thankyou for letting me know that rats do sleep with their eyes open - now I understand why for so many years some of my boys never seemed to sleep!!

Thankyou all so so much for replying, you've been invaluable to me and my Fred xxx


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

hagrobiscuit said:


> Hello again everyone,
> I cannot thank you all enough for the advice and also for your stories. Last night I decided to take their two-tier cage apart so it was only one level. I quickly sewed together a snuggle bag for them to sleep in for the night while I thought about permanent solutions. That rabbit *hutch* idea is simply superb, I will definitely do that! I have such problems getting everything the boys love into the cage when there is such little floor space! The problem is each rat has their own favourite of everything, so it requires a lot of planning getting it all in!
> Freddy (hind leg floppy boy) desperately needs his back claws trimmed but I've chickened out of doing it twice now as he struggles and I'm scared of him pulling away as I press the clippers down and breaking one of his toes :-( So because of his long claws he can no longer come out onto the carpet as he gets stuck with every step.
> He finds the litter in the cage (Yesterday's News) too much to deal with, too, as it's slippery and it rolls under his feet. I really need to change it, what do you all use? I used to use Carefresh but it was very expensive and my local pet shop only sells small bags. Grr! I've tried putting a towel in the cage instead of litter, but I just don't have enough towels (or good enough weather at the moment!) to get them a fresh one each night and obviously it gets stinking within a few hours. Ohhhh the joys of pets, eh? :-D
> ...


I must stress it's cage, not a wooden hutch! Like this:


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Try getting some cheap fleece for the bottom
Cut it to size then just change and wash when needed 

I'd file his nails with a good quality nail file rather then clip them if he gets stressed with clipping


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Aha! Filing, seems so obvious now you say it! Excellent, I'll try filing. :-D
Oh, I see what you mean now Argent - their cage is two of those on top of each other! I thought you meant one of those long runs - d'oh.
Fleece is worth a try. It's such a pain to have to keep washing and drying every day, but needs must when it's for my babies!
I just took him his second feed and he rested his head on my hand as I stroked him - I could feel his teeth hook onto my finger so once he's finished eating I'm going to give him a bit of a dental exam. I've never had a rat with overgrown teeth, but I suspect that may be another reason for him having trouble eating.
Sheesh, it's a good thing I love him!!
xxxxxx

(update)
Well that is strange, his teeth look too short if anything! The bottom two are very thin and very small... I'll have to check the other boys for a comparison.


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## Jarhead (Jul 11, 2011)

We used to chuck one if the throws that you shove over beds and sofsa on the floor to stop nails getting caught on carpet


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

hagrobiscuit said:


> Aha! Filing, seems so obvious now you say it! Excellent, I'll try filing. :-D
> Oh, I see what you mean now Argent - their cage is two of those on top of each other! I thought you meant one of those long runs - d'oh.
> Fleece is worth a try. It's such a pain to have to keep washing and drying every day, but needs must when it's for my babies!
> I just took him his second feed and he rested his head on my hand as I stroked him - I could feel his teeth hook onto my finger so once he's finished eating I'm going to give him a bit of a dental exam. I've never had a rat with overgrown teeth, but I suspect that may be another reason for him having trouble eating.
> ...


I find ratties teeth seem to stick out permanently - they don't really have lips to close their mouths 100%, the toofs are always there!


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

I checked on him this morning to find a very sorry looking little man. He just seems so weak and depressed... He's eating and drinking, providing the food is near enough and on a plate rather than a bowl (he can't reach over it), but he can't seem to get comfy anywhere and if I pick him up he falls asleep in my arms and won't let me put him back down (he does a u-turn and tries to claw back into my hands). I think I will need to take him back to the vet for proper checkups rather than just a pull on his back legs and some metacam! 
I'm trying not to think of the inevitable at this point... though the dreaded PTS does keep looming in my mind. Fingers crossed the modifications will cheer him up!


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

@Argent, phew!! That's another little new thing I've only just noticed about them, then! In 6 years of ownership, and 4 different pairings, they're still surprising me :-D
The others never rest their noses on my hand, in fact the most I usually see of their teeth is when they look above them and fall over backwards ;-)


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

hagrobiscuit said:


> @Argent, phew!! That's another little new thing I've only just noticed about them, then! In 6 years of ownership, and 4 different pairings, they're still surprising me :-D
> The others never rest their noses on my hand, in fact the most I usually see of their teeth is when they look above them and fall over backwards ;-)


Hehe I only noticed it when they were on the shelf above my eyeline in the explorer (I'm only short  ) they're like this  all the time  It's so weird isn't it!?


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## Jarhead (Jul 11, 2011)

If they sleep on you they trust you and they dont need to run the whole time. They are getting old but 118 and 117 did that for a year or so.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I have recently had two Rats Put to sleep.. Jason and Sparkie.. It was a very sad time and I felt awful.. But I know I didn't want my lads to suffer.. The vet gassed them first then pts.. So they went very peacefully.. 
Jason couldn't get round his cage so I changed it all around for him.. I have laminate flooring to make loads of levels for them and had to move it all about.. I also had him out on the floor as much as possible cause this allowed him to explore without having to climb. I decided after 2 weeks he wasn't really making a positive improvement and made the sad decision to let him go.. 
Bets of luck with your guys.. xxx


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Hiya momentofmadness, yes I know what you mean about feeling awful!! But as you say, when you know it's preventing suffering you do pull yourself together and stay strong as long as you need to to get the right thing done.
I was really hoping Freddy would improve these past few days, but he's losing weight rapidly despite the high fat mashed foods he's getting several times a day, and he seems to have all but lost the strength in his front limbs now, too. 
This is their current set-up:








It's very bare as I've removed the youngsters into a separate cage to give the oldies some peace for a while, so most of the toys are in theirs and out in the ratty room. 
Freddy's finding it easier to move about on the new towel/mediwrap combo floor, but he's still unable to get around easily. It feels to me like he's giving up, like he just doesn't have the puff to carry on. I'm going to give him a few more days, 3 at the most, of extra spoiling (though he's already spoilt to hell, so not sure how i'm going to top that!) and keep my hopes up that he'll adapt and his quality of life won't descend. If he's still miserable in a few days I may consider euthanasia... Ugh. The thought makes me shudder. 
@momentofmadness, did you stay with your boys as they were pts? How did they react to the initial gassing? Did it take long? xxxxxx


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hagrobiscuit said:


> Hiya momentofmadness, yes I know what you mean about feeling awful!! But as you say, when you know it's preventing suffering you do pull yourself together and stay strong as long as you need to to get the right thing done.
> I was really hoping Freddy would improve these past few days, but he's losing weight rapidly despite the high fat mashed foods he's getting several times a day, and he seems to have all but lost the strength in his front limbs now, too.
> This is their current set-up:
> 
> ...


Im sad to say I couldn't.. my friend is the attending vet nurse(friends for a good 10 years).. I was an absolute blubbering wreck.. i even had to go back to pay.. 
In fact its got me in tears again.. since jase went I have had Rhoddi out watching tv with me at night.. rhoddi was his cage mate..
http://www.petforums.co.uk/rainbow-bridge/184494-rip-jason.html

And then Sparkie.. just too much..
http://www.petforums.co.uk/rainbow-bridge/185213-r-i-p-sparkie.html

I know My friend would tell me the truth.. she said they were in a small container and gassed to go to sleep.. they just nodded off.. and then PTS.. When I went back they asked if I wanted to take him.. I couldn't.. I didn't want to see him like that.. I wanted him to be alive and so full of himself like he always was.:crying: I can't believe how its upset me.. and how I couldn't be with him as he went.. I didn't want to remember him like that..
And pure madness I have held dogs and cats and hamsters and many many horses as they have been pts.. But I just couldn't with Jason.. I do feel I let him down.. Im just glad he was comfortable with many people and not just me..
They were still quite young.. just over a year old..

I guess its personal choice if you want to be there I can imagine vets wouldn't want you to see them putting them to sleep. My friend the vet nurse she was crying also as I handed him over.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

I have been there when one of my rats had to be put to sleep. He was gassed and then an injection was given and I was in a right state. The other times I've asked to wait out while they did it as I couldn't bare to see there little eyes shut.:crying: forever.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

blade100 said:


> I have been there when one of my rats had to be put to sleep. He was gassed and then an injection was given and I was in a right state. The other times I've asked to wait out while they did it as I couldn't bare to see there little eyes shut.:crying: forever.


I know what you mean Blade.. i didn't even say goodbye to Jase.. i just kept kissing him and hugging him and tellin the little guy how much I loved him.. In that room was me.. the vet.. and about 4 nurses.. They were all giving him loves saying how lovely he was..:crying:

Sparkie I hugged and kissed him and told him I loved him and told him to go say hi to Jase..


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

People at work think I'm mad but to me they are my children and everytime one dies they take a piece of your heart with them.


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

I know exactly what you mean, out of the two boys that have been pts in the past I was only there for one of them. I have been thinking about whether I will stay in with them again after last time, and I think it really does depend on the rat themselves. Some aren't too bothered with me, but others are total mummy's boys and need cuddles for reassurance. 
Unfortunately, Freddy is my absolute baby by his own choice. I've had to make a neck hammock for him so he can always be with me while I can be hands free and get stuff done!

My last boy, Buster, had a brain tumor which was poorly dealt with thanks to a vet surgery that don't have much experience in treating rats. It was put down to an ear infection, but they refused to give him anything for it without examining him, and couldn't examine him because their otoscopes weren't designed for rat's ears. Argh!! 
He was so very wretched by the end (he had stopped eating and drinking, too) that putting him out of that misery was enough to calm any tears away. It was very distressing, but I had my sister with me at the terminal moment, and she can cry for Britain. She did enough for the both of us.

Oh, and your little terrors were so very cute! They look like my past gents, it's quite spooky 

I've upped a video of Freddy; it's infuriating trying to get a video of him moving about so you can see the extent of his troubles as he only does so occasionally. But here he is having something to eat.

Freddy eating mashed soymilky bread and biccies


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

He has that look that Jase had in his face.. 

I felt Jason was very confused/frustrated that he couldn't get himself going..:crying:


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

blade100 said:


> People at work think I'm mad but to me they are my children and everytime one dies they take a piece of your heart with them.


I couldn't agree more.

I once had a rather unpleasant experience with a lady who runs a premature baby charity. I won't get into the wheres and whyfores, but the nub of the point was that I had offered my condolences to her on the loss of her son. I said I couldn't possibly know what she was going through, and mentioned the state I was left in after my last rat died. I said if I could feel so incredibly sick with grief for my baby, then I can't imagine how bad it must feel to lose an actual child.
Sadly everyone who heard this jumped on me like wolves and tore me to shreds, calling me an insensitive bitch for apparently calling her son vermin!!!

I learnt my lesson after that - I stick with animals and animal lovers now, that was the last time I tried to be nice outside of my circle!!
Some people just don't understand that you could love a _pencil _with the same ferocity as a person. Just because it's a pencil doesn't make your love any less strong. Of course... loving a pencil would be a bit weird. I *like* my pencils, but I'm just not that kind of girl. :wink:
When you lose someone you're that in love with it bloody hurts, as we all know here. When you offer sympathies and have your own grief trampled on it's so very upsetting.


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

@momentofmadness aye, I feel the same. It's like he just doesn't know what to do with himself


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hagrobiscuit said:


> @momentofmadness aye, I feel the same. It's like he just doesn't know what to do with himself


I noticed if Jase was left unattended in his cage he just soiled his bed as he didn't or couldn't seem to get going to get out..


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Yes, I'm having to give him a bottywash once or twice a day now as he can't move out of his pee spots  

Well... fingers firmly crossed he'll get some weight on and cheer up a bit in the next few days.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hagrobiscuit said:


> Yes, I'm having to give him a bottywash once or twice a day now as he can't move out of his pee spots
> 
> Well... fingers firmly crossed he'll get some weight on and cheer up a bit in the next few days.


I gave Jase.. baby food.. mash pasta... rice.. fruit and tit bits he went right off his food..  and his weight plummeted..

Then his feet seemed really cold so i knew that wasn't right.. And his feet kinda lost their colour they weren't that bright baby pinkish colour..


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi -I had a boy with HLD hind limb degeneration for over a year he died recently over 3 years old -looking at the video I wonder if your boy has a pituituary tumour too although it may be the paralysis spreading .
All you can do really is take each day as it comes -make each day special .
As for PTS the nicest method is a pad of chloroform placed in the carrier with him until he sleeps then the injection can be given. I worked with my Vet and have seen all methods that can be used and for small furries this is the least stressful


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you hugely for the info tagalong, every story I hear really does help prepare me for the worst and gives me hope as well.
I am considering writing my vet a letter requesting a different method of euthanasia as I really do have my doubts about the one they have used on my boys in the past. But of course then there is the worry that if it isn't a method they are used to they could get it wrong and cause more upset. What a quandary!!

You know, I also thought it could be a pituitary tumor. But after my last boy was diagnosed I discovered that they are reasonably uncommon, and the chances of having two in a row unrelated going from it are very small. So either it's just the paralysis spreading or I am the unluckiest owner in the world!!! :-D

@momentofmadness, it's so reassuring to meet someone who loved her boys so much - I feel for you as I know exactly how big that hole they leave is. 

xxxx


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hagrobiscuit said:


> Thank you hugely for the info tagalong, every story I hear really does help prepare me for the worst and gives me hope as well.
> I am considering writing my vet a letter requesting a different method of euthanasia as I really do have my doubts about the one they have used on my boys in the past. But of course then there is the worry that if it isn't a method they are used to they could get it wrong and cause more upset. What a quandary!!
> 
> *You know, I also thought it could be a pituitary tumor. But after my last boy was diagnosed I discovered that they are reasonably uncommon, and the chances of having two in a row unrelated going from it are very small. So either it's just the paralysis spreading or I am the unluckiest owner in the world!!! :-D*
> ...


I felt like that too.. Two boys put to sleep within 3 days..


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Two in 3 days is beyond rough  I'm not surprised it's hit your so very hard.
You have my total sympathy. When my first dog died at the ripe old age of 18 (I'd had him since I was a baby) I never really got over it. I used to come home from a night out and wake up in the garden by his grave. A little obsessive I know, but in my defense I was always extremely drunk!
I think for me having no human friends, animals have always been like family to me. They're not merely pets, they're like best friends, siblings or children. The grief can be astronomical on occasion.
I draw the line at sweaters on cats though. lol


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

Sadly PTs are not that uncommon -over all my years of ratty ownership i have lost 5 from it -some male and female -
to be honest it's hard to mess up the chloroform technique it just needs patience to wait till the rat becomes drowsy then put pad closer and closer until they are deeply asleep.
I recently lost a doe from a PT and in the end it was so sad to see her struggle I knew her life was no fun for her and had to make the decision I miss her loads she was a rescue and not with me long but I do not doubt i had to do it then -you do know when the time comes and it's right


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

I was looking for some videos of rats with pituitary tumors, and rats with spinal degeneration, to compare the two and while doing so I found this: Rat Chariot Mk. II - YouTube It's a rat chariot! How sweet!


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## Sophie_xxx (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi, sorry jumped on the thread a bit late here - let us know how Freddie is doing. I am having to have my elderly girl Thelma PTS this evening and ive been in tears all afternoon, ive tried giving her extra cuddles but she just seems to want to be left alone to sleep. She has 3 quite large tumours which are restricting her movement, ability to wash and eat, and she's also lost the use of her back legs :crying: Although she is still eating, I think it's the kindest thing now. 

As for putting small animals to sleep, I know the vet that I go to use a 'gas chamber' as horrible as that sounds, but they literally pop them in and send them to sleep with gas, and then give the injection. Much nicer in my opinion.


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## Jarhead (Jul 11, 2011)

I still say good night to 118 after a year. I didnt want to forget him. He was always wanting to get to me then he would climb on me and fall asleep there. I think I ment the world to him amd him to me. He wasnt just a pet he was family. 

I put flowers on 118, 117 and Batfinks grave in the garden I tell them how Jarhead is . Like 117 and Batfink would like to know.

I know it probably isnt healthy. You get to love new ones but you never stop loving the ones you had. 

Hope you are ok. Big hugs.


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## hagrobiscuit (Aug 28, 2011)

Ohh I think the argument about what is and isn't healthy is for those who don't feel for animals all that much. We all grieve in different ways, and it can all depend on our relationships with those animals too. After all, you're more likely to miss a pet bitterly if they were at your side every day than one who you barely knew and used to bite you all the time! 

Freddy seemed miserable until I realised he was dehydrated. After a few spoonfuls of bread and soymilk he perked up a little, so at least now I know that he's not drinking for himself anymore. Pfff. Such a hard time.

I'm so sorry to hear about Thelma Sophie  I hope you're bearing up. xxx


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## Jarhead (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks. So true. Good to know you are loved. 

Im glad Freddy is perking up. You could also try tomato or cucumber tey are moist. 

I wish we could talk to them to find out whats whats wrong or help them. Right now I would say "Jarhead calm doen. If you stopped trying to bite the neubies you would be in a cage with them which is what you want." Jarhead not called Jarhead for his smarts.


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