# Does anyone else's dog hate Advocate?



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Whenever we go to put it on Maisy she runs away and gets really stressed out. She even had a bit of a snap tonight. She's been like it ever since we got her, so I figure it can't be because it hurts her, unless the previous owners used it (doubtful). 

Putting it on Rocky was fine, the most difficult bit was stopping him licking my hand at the same time 

Ideas? It's really odd, and she'll hide for about an hour afterwards.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I thought it shouldn't be used on Collies?


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

rona said:


> I thought it shouldn't be used on Collies?


Are you taking the mick?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Megan345 said:


> Whenever we go to put it on Maisy she runs away and gets really stressed out. She even had a bit of a snap tonight. She's been like it ever since we got her, so I figure it can't be because it hurts her, unless the previous owners used it (doubtful).
> 
> Putting it on Rocky was fine, the most difficult bit was stopping him licking my hand at the same time
> 
> Ideas? It's really odd, and she'll hide for about an hour afterwards.


I can't speak for whether it should be used on Collies - but it's not something I would use.

There was a report of one dog returned to their crate after being treated with Advocate and it burnt the plastic.

Who knows whether these stories are true or not - but if it is true, I dread to think of the effect it could have on a dog with sensitive skin.

I use Milbemax for worming (3 monthly or monthly when I have pups up to 6 months), and then Frontline sporadically - touch wood, never had a problem with fleas or worms.

The only difference to this is I use Panacur for any home bred pups and then switch my keeper(s) or brought in to Milbemax at 12 weeks.

ETA - if you are thinking of changing - speak to a vet, because some worming products mustn't be used within a certain time window of using Advocate


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

swarthy said:


> I can't speak for whether it should be used on Collies - but it's not something I would use.
> 
> There was a report of one dog returned to their crate after being treated with Advocate and it burnt the plastic.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of swapping anyway - I saw a photo of what Advocate supposedly did to a leather sofa, somewhere. I'm not convinced, but thought it might be for the best. I don't know if vets get commission for it (probably) but she seemed pretty certain that Advocate was the only thing that would treat lungworm, if I'm remembering correctly, and that's pretty prevalent around here.

I'll look into it and then have a chat to her about it.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry, rona - just done a bit of Googling, not read a lot yet, looks like you're right! Sorry if I came across as offensive, it wasn't meant like that  We do get it from the vet, not a website, so I don't understand why they wouldn't have even mentioned a slight warning


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Megan345 said:


> Are you taking the mick?


No.
It's called ivermectin toxicity and Collies are the main breed type prone to it


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Megan345 said:


> Sorry, rona - just done a bit of Googling, not read a lot yet, looks like you're right! Sorry if I came across as offensive, it wasn't meant like that  We do get it from the vet, not a website, so I don't understand why they wouldn't have even mentioned a slight warning


No problem 

Maybe you could educate your vet?


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Looks like about 75% of collies are. Will be going to have a chat with the vet tomorrow  I don't understand why the vet wouldn't have known - I assumed the reason you couldn't just buy it off the shelf was because it was dangerous, so therefore they would know the dangers associated with it!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogs : Ivermectin toxicity | Vetstream


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

rona said:


> No problem
> 
> Maybe you could educate your vet?


Could be. I'm now wondering if they know the problems with collies but think lungworm is the greater risk? I'd still expect to be told, mind you.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Megan345 said:


> Could be. I'm now wondering if they know the problems with collies but think lungworm is the greater risk? I'd still expect to be told, mind you.


Panacur for lungworm 

It's a bit cheap though, they won't make much money, and/or you can buy it online or the local country store as it's used extensively for livestock


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Megan345 said:


> I was thinking of swapping anyway - I saw a photo of what Advocate supposedly did to a leather sofa, somewhere. I'm not convinced, but thought it might be for the best. I don't know if vets get commission for it (probably) but she seemed pretty certain that Advocate was the only thing that would treat lungworm, if I'm remembering correctly, and that's pretty prevalent around here.
> 
> I'll look into it and then have a chat to her about it.


Milbemax can prevent / treat lung worm - but believe it has to be given for 'x' amount of days.

I've used various wormers over the years - and wouldn't switch from Milbemax for any dog over 3 months old.

When using panacur on my pups - I always ensure they've had a good meal first as their poor tums can get very gripey - it is quite harsh - the difference with the change of using after food was quite remarkable


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Megan345 said:


> Whenever we go to put it on Maisy she runs away and gets really stressed out. She even had a bit of a snap tonight. She's been like it ever since we got her, so I figure it can't be because it hurts her, unless the previous owners used it (doubtful).
> 
> Putting it on Rocky was fine, the most difficult bit was stopping him licking my hand at the same time
> 
> Ideas? It's really odd, and she'll hide for about an hour afterwards.


Some dogs can have a hypersensitivity to it and it can cause reactions

The use of the product may result in transient pruritus in the animal. On rare occasions greasy fur, erythema and vomiting can occur. These signs disappear without further treatment. The product may, in rare cases cause local hypersensitivity reactions. The product may in very rare cases cause at the application site a sensation resulting in transient behavioural changes such as lethargy, agitation, and inappetence.
Full details on here
NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Advocate Spot-on Solution - Contra-indications, warnings, etc

Its also got moxidectin in it as well as Imidacloprid and care needs to be taken when applying it to collies and collie type crosses and other pastoral/herding breeds too

When the product is applied in 3 to 4 separate spots in larger dogs, specific care should be taken to prevent the animal licking the application sites. Oral uptake by Collies, Old English Sheepdogs and related breeds or crossbreeds should be prevented.

During treatment with Advocate no other antiparasitic macrocyclic lactone should be administered. This product contains moxidectin (a macrocyclic lactone), therefore special care should be taken with Collies, Old English Sheepdogs and related breeds or crossbreeds, to correctly administer the product as described above. In particular, oral uptake by the recipient and/or other animals in close contact should be prevented.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Thanks rona. I'll switch, I think, not worth it - especially since she even hates the sight of the packet!

Not impressed with my vet at all. After reading the leaflet in the box, they even told us to apply it in the wrong place. Obviously I should have read it before - silly me, I won't trust the vet's advice for even a simple application again!


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Thank you Sled Dog - that's pretty much what it says on the leaflet. I'm not too panicked as she's had it three times before, but I'll keep an eye on her. I'm just so annoyed the vet didn't even mention it.


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## Oscar12 (Aug 26, 2012)

I was given this for Maisie as she had demodex under her leg, she is due a dose in the next week but I'm not sure about giving her it now :S

Is their anything else I could give her or should I give the last dose then see the vet about future worming?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Milbemax can prevent / treat lung worm - but believe it has to be given for 'x' amount of days.
> 
> I've used various wormers over the years - and wouldn't switch from Milbemax for any dog over 3 months old.
> 
> When using panacur on my pups - I always ensure they've had a good meal first as their poor tums can get very gripey - it is quite harsh - the difference with the change of using after food was quite remarkable


Milbemax® (Milbemycin Oxime, Praziquantel) - Novartis Animal Health Inc.
Special Precautions and Warnings

Studies with milbemycin oxime indicate that the margin of safety in certain dogs of *Collie* or related breeds is less than in other breeds. In these dogs, the recommended dose should be strictly observed.

The tolerance of MILBEMAX in young puppies from these breeds has not been investigated.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

This is a bit of a minefield that I hadn't anticipated!


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

McKenzie hates it too and always has done - I actually think it does hurt her or she wouldn't react the way she does.

I stopped Advocate and used the Comfortis tablets for a while, but wasn't happy giving her a pill for fleas. I'm now using Advantage, which she seems happier with than Advocate. 

Ideally I'd like to go all natural, but it's just not an option here in the middle of summer as we have a very humid climate and fleas just love it. We had a big flea problem last year and I don't want to go through that again. But in autumn/winter/early spring I'm going to try not to use chemicals on her.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Not had a problem with it tbh, Diz doesn't especially relish anything pointy going near her neck after she was chipped rather clumsily 

ETA, it does stink though


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## bexy1989 (May 10, 2009)

never had a problem with it when Boris has it and we haven't seen a single flea or worm 

i have to agree with muze it smells awful, and the smells seems to last for ages aswell.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Megan345 said:


> Thank you Sled Dog - that's pretty much what it says on the leaflet. I'm not too panicked as she's had it three times before, but I'll keep an eye on her. I'm just so annoyed the vet didn't even mention it.


Unfortunately - vets (and doctors for that matter) are unlikely to be familiar with all specific drug risks / interactions

I had a massive falling out with my ex-vet after he gave one of my girls Rimadyl without telling me - when I pointed out there were increased risks in toxicity when using it in Labs - he was quite offensive towards me - needless to say - we avoided the surgery like the plague when he was on duty.

However, once the "expert" has all the information (which I am sure they will when you return next if not before) - they can make an informed decision, and in some instances, that might, at times, mean they believe the benefits outweigh any possible risks.

Without knowing your area - it's very difficult to say whether there is an issue with lung worm, hence the vet may already know about the issue with Collies (which means if he did, then IMHO he should have given you all the facts allowing you to make an informed decision).

Like you - I've heard similar stories of crate plastic being burnt, and also dogs sticking to crate plastic after use; whether they are true I have no idea (I do intentionally separate all mine when I Frontline them) - but if there is even a remote possibility then it is almost inevitable it could irritate some dogs - any might explain why yours gets so uppity when they see the box.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Unfortunately - vets (and doctors for that matter) are unlikely to be familiar with all specific drug risks / interactions
> 
> I had a massive falling out with my ex-vet after he gave one of my girls Rimadyl without telling me - when I pointed out there were increased risks in toxicity when using it in Labs - he was quite offensive towards me - needless to say - we avoided the surgery like the plague when he was on duty.
> 
> ...


I suppose I just find it quite surprising in that they recommend Advocate to everyone (it's a Pets at Home vet) and it seems to be that collies and collie types are the only ones that can be sensitive to it, I wouldn't have thought that was much to remember. Ah well, we live and learn, I suppose!

That is bad about your ex-vet. :thumbdown: That kind of attitude is what worries me a bit about talking to them, I feel like once I get there, I'll feel stupid for reading some stuff on the Internet and questioning the vet over it, after all their years of training and experience  Although as you say, I wouldn't have minded if the risks had been presented, weighed up, the vet gave us her opinion, and let us make the choice. In addition, it does appear there is a test available to check if each dog will have a reaction to the ingredient. I wouldn't have minded paying for that if the risk of lungworm is that great around here. Then again, I'd only have the vet's word to go on that it was!

Anyway, Maisy's reaction to it is a definite, solid thing to be going on that they can't deny  She hid from us all last night and even slept downstairs, instead of on our bed, which she never does. On that basis alone I'll look into some different wormers - I don't think flea treatment is really necessary unless they actually have fleas, and Advocate doesn't do ticks anyway.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

Harvey went through weekly treatments of Advocate (he's now down to monthly). We've never noticed any adverse effects other than slightly elevated itching in the following 24 hours - thank goodness!

The odd thing is that when he was really bad with demodex we talked about Ivermectin but they wouldn't entertain the idea until all avenues were explored and yet never mentioned the risks of Advocate. As we also have Bruno, we have to be careful with him around Harvey once it has been administered. We tend to do it last thing at night when everyone is settling down for the night.

I didn't realise the risks with it until I managed to wipe out a tank of seahorse fry after absent mindedly touching Harvey when he had just been treated and then putting my hand in the tank.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Just mention what's on the paperwork and voice your concerns. See what reaction you get


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## sopott (Dec 30, 2012)

snoopy reacts the same way to advocate and frontline combo: he tries to hide when the packaging comes out, he acts in pain when i apply it, and had the runs for 24 hours after. my vet says its nothing to be concerned about i use milbemax for worming and it works great, with no bad side effects.

btw i just bought a furminator, would i notice if my dog got fleas. maybe we can stop flea treatment all together?


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

If you do choose another spot on and your dog is still showing signs of stress when applying, do it carefully when she is asleep. 

I lightly stroke to make sure they are fully relaxed then with the other hand job done. They are a bit what f... happened then, they will shake, to remove it and avoid you for a bit but then think oh what heck its done now.


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## sopott (Dec 30, 2012)

i've never managed to find snoopy relaxed when its time for flea treatment. he is due tomorrow and i have already taken the frontline out of its packet and put it one the side. he won't go near the surface it's on. if i go near that surface he tries to hide. this particularly strange as i put it next to his treat jar!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

sopott said:


> snoopy reacts the same way to advocate and frontline combo: he tries to hide when the packaging comes out, he acts in pain when i apply it, and had the runs for 24 hours after. my vet says its nothing to be concerned about i use milbemax for worming and it works great, with no bad side effects.
> 
> btw i just bought a furminator, would i notice if my dog got fleas. maybe we can stop flea treatment all together?


That reaction can't be simple coincidence 

When I just had the one dog, and before I used to show (collars leave marks on necks) - I used to use the flea collars - and we always did when I was growing up as well.

Touch wood - it's not something we've ever encountered a problem with - every now and again I go on a "oh gosh, they haven't been Frontlined for a while" and then buy a 6 pack - but we always try and do it when I can keep all of them separated as I have the horrors of them getting it in their mouths from each other.

That's a thought - if we have another one, I am going to have to buy 9 at a time then - grrrrrrrr - will have to find another two dogs at the same time lmao

As above - for worming - Panacur up to 12 weeks (on a fully tummy) and Milbemax for 12 weeks onwards -

I have tried Drontal and cheap wormers in the past from places like PAH - we've had the runs and being sick respectively - never had any of this with Milbemax.

ETA - Be careful with the "Furminator" - they "appear" to take a lot of hair off the dogs, but actually they can shred their coats - we used one on two of our Labs and It took us a while to realise it was actually shredding and stripping out their undercoats


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Well having read all this, think I might avoid Advocate from now on, only used it get on top of Demodex so hopefully (*touches everything wooden in sight*) won't need it again.
I don't generally treat for fleas routinely unless I know of someone (or their dog!) who's had them. 
I used to use Frontline regularly, with no issues, for my older dog as she used to hang out at the rescue kennels a fair bit so was around all sorts.

Another vote for Milbemax here, always used it, effective, reasonably priced and palatable. None of the dogs have ever had any side effects, even my Mum's staff who's allergic to almost everything!


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## sopott (Dec 30, 2012)

last time my vet applied the advocate, it took the vet nurse and myself to hold down a 20 kg dog! the vet didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with that! 
i just read up on it and found that Bayer also make a flea collar called seresto. has anyone tried this?


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## sarah42 (Nov 19, 2012)

I've been using Advocate with our dog since he was about 12 weeks old. Not had any problems when applying it but I do make sure he is a bit sleepy first so he never really notices me doing so. Used various spot-on treatments over the years with cats & dogs and found this seems to be the best way to apply it.


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## Symone (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't know if I should be worried now, but I'm half considering changing vets.
My vet gave me some for my border collie who is 3 months old. Guess I shouldn't even give her any and ask the breeder what he uses for older dogs? 
(Vet told me to wait a few days before I apply it since she's on meds atm for being ill)


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Symone said:


> I don't know if I should be worried now, but I'm half considering changing vets.
> My vet gave me some for my border collie who is 3 months old. Guess I shouldn't even give her any and ask the breeder what he uses for older dogs?
> (Vet told me to wait a few days before I apply it since she's on meds atm for being ill)


The thing is, it's like Metacam, it can be used on many thousands of dog without incidence BUT if it's your dog that does react (and with Advocate that's probably a Collie), you've got a very sick dog on your hands  

Metacam helps with quite serious issues making the risk worth it sometimes.
The vets may be willing to risk your dog for a few worms and fleas, even with other alternatives.
Are you?


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## StuW (Jul 23, 2012)

Bailey and Meg hated it and would run away and hide under the beds! Have since changed to use Diatomaceous Earth and Garlic. 

Sierra has only had 2 Milbemax tablets when she was 8 & 10 weeks old and then DE and Garlic!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StuW said:


> Bailey and Meg hated it and would run away and hide under the beds! Have since changed to use Diatomaceous Earth and Garlic.
> 
> Sierra has only had 2 Milbemax tablets when she was 8 & 10 weeks old and then DE and Garlic!


Does that work on Lungworm?


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## StuW (Jul 23, 2012)

Its to be fed 30-45 days to treat tapeworm and 90 days for lungworm! I'm going to start just giving it daily soon anyway!


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## Jorton (Aug 3, 2012)

I used to use advocate till a few weeks ago when someone I know used it on her bulldog and it caused a very bad reaction it looked like a burn, took the fur off her back where is came in to contact and looked red and weepy. Put me off somewhat


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