# advice please, first litter expected any day now!!



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Hi, this is my first time on a forum, and am seeking advice really. before any one becomes judgmental, yes my wee dog was involved in an accidental mating, no i don't believe in abortion of any kind, and yes i have a home for all the expected puppies. My Mother has recently retired and over the past two years we have lost two horses, one dog, and two cats to old age, she has a lot of land and is taking the whole litter! so all the pups will stay together and have an idyllic forever home. Completely spoiled now my sister and i have left home!

Getting back to my query, My wee dog is a delightful Pomeranian cross jack Russell, she was covered once in her third season. We had been intending to breed her the once for the puppies for my mum but not this time as i my self am currently 36 weeks pregnant. Any way we are now on day 59 and been off her food for a few days, i have done a lot of reading up and seen that it could be an indication of imminent whelping in the next few days. I am unable to take her temperature rectally the last time i tried ( with lubrication)she cried and it sounded like she was screeching, I don't wont to put her through that again. Is there any other way i can tell? and please what people food would anyone recommend. she wont eat eggs, cheese. Only home made chicken soup and chicken but its given her diarrhea.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Great that there is a lovely home waiting for all the pups 

I do have to clarify one thing though: it is not 'abortion' to put an end to an 'accidental' and ill advised mating and pregnancy. The mating may have been 'accidental' but the pregnancy is not because you are allowing it to continue. What about the health of the pups - were there no health tests that the parent breeds should have had to prevent them being passed on? None will have been done.

Going by your 'logic', you can't give any of the pups away because your girl won't want to 'lose' her children. 

More than a few dog owners have lost their bitches when giving birth, personally I have no idea why you would want to even risk this when there is the mismate injection readily available.

To stress again: the mating may have been 'accidental' but the pregnancy is DELIBERATE, because you could avoid all this and let your girl just continue to be a healthy and happy pet.

Not what you wanted to hear?

You've posted on an open forum, you don't get to decide what others post


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

I see what your saying, but I suppose I view my dogs as members of my family and as much as I guess you could compare the injection for dogs the same as a morning after pill, I felt that with only the one cover the likelihood of conception for a dog was so high I couldn't deny it. Admittedly as a mother of two having suffered six miscarriages my value of life is high whether its a spider, dog or person. Even though the timing could not be worse for me, being due to have my have my third child in three weeks, termination of any life without giving it a chance is just not an option for me. 
She is healthy dog, been vet checked, scanned, regularly wormed and received flea treatment and up to date with her immunizations all before pregnancy occurred and we have money set aside in case she needs emergency care during whelping or afterwards. The vet has assured me that there are no reasons why she should not have a healthy litter, and i have purchased all the medical equipment and supplies he has asked me to, I also have a close friend who has been mentoring me, her family breeds Min Pins and Black Russians. I am not doing this lightly I can assure you. 
Any helpful input would be really appreciated on what sorts of foods dogs are receptive to at this stage and are safe, as my dogs are really not used to people foods. Thank you


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't usually comment in Breeding as I have no experience, but you cannot compare your own pregnancy and the tragic loss of your unborn children, to your girl's pups. You're not the only one who considers their dog/s as family members or values life whatever its form, but the _quality _of life is equally (if not more) important than quantity.

Your mum is going to take all the puppies. Really? Many ethical breeders would think twice about handing 2 puppies over to the same family because of the sheer work involved in raising a single pup to adulthood - never mind handing over a whole litter. Do you know how many your girl is having?

You already know that the timing of your dog's pregnancy is less than ideal - how will you cope if the bitch rejects the pups and you have to raise the litter yourself when you have 2 children and a new born baby to look after too? Sorry but something will have to give, and chances are, it'll be the pups.

You value life in all its forms. I _dare _you to click on the link - AND read it to the end:
Letter from a Shelter Manager

Chances are, that'll be where some of your pups will end up - if not in a few weeks when your own baby wakes you up every 4 hours for feeding/changing, then when your mum realises she just can't cope with a full litter of pups.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you are badly in need of a wake up call.


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok .....so letting a whole litter run riot on a large piece of land will be idyllic? for whom !!!!!!

As said before, many ethical breeders would never let 2 pups from the same litter go to the same home. Not just because training is hard work but because they can sometimes never respect an owner at all because they have each other and don't need anyone else....then times that by 8 puppies possibly. So your Mum gets to cope with that not my idea of idyllic.

What about safety of the pups/adults they will become. There is no point in a large piece of land unless they use it and then it needs to be properly fenced. I hope Mum can afford to dog proof it. Pom x JR x ?. (Presumably the ? is a smallish dog or the bitch will really be in trouble). So a tribe of small dogs that can potentially get through the smallest of gaps to get run over, upset livestock, **** is someone elses garden or any other thing you can think of. Idyllic, not in my book. Then there is the cost of keeping a whole litter, vets bills, food, NEUTERING. 

I don't know whether I am more scared of thinking you hadn't actually thought this through or thinking that you had and still think it's a good idea.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> Hi, this is my first time on a forum, and am seeking advice really. before any one becomes judgmental, yes my wee dog was involved in an accidental mating, no i don't believe in abortion of any kind, and yes i have a home for all the expected puppies. My Mother has recently retired and over the past two years we have lost two horses, one dog, and two cats to old age, she has a lot of land and is taking the whole litter! so all the pups will stay together and have an idyllic forever home. Completely spoiled now my sister and i have left home!
> 
> Getting back to my query, My wee dog is a delightful Pomeranian cross jack Russell, she was covered once in her third season. We had been intending to breed her the once for the puppies for my mum but not this time as i my self am currently 36 weeks pregnant. Any way we are now on day 59 and been off her food for a few days, i have done a lot of reading up and seen that it could be an indication of imminent whelping in the next few days. I am unable to take her temperature rectally the last time i tried ( with lubrication)she cried and it sounded like she was screeching, I don't wont to put her through that again. Is there any other way i can tell? and please what people food would anyone recommend. she wont eat eggs, cheese. Only home made chicken soup and chicken but its given her diarrhea.


What happens if your mum is too ill to look after the pups? What happens if the pups have a genetic condition, your mother is then left with a whole litter of pups/dogs that will maybe go blind, or suffer with joint deformities? What happens if the bitch dies during whelping?

It would have been a nicer idea if your mother had rehomed a few dogs from a rescue organisation, they're all crammed to the rafters with dogs from accidental litters, or breeders who don't care where pups end up. For many of them it is a death sentence, particularly the older, more difficult dogs, and yet people are still allowing dogs to procreate. Whilst you may not view your litter as contributing towards the problem, in reality, it is, it's yet another litter that really didn't need to happen.



mrsadder said:


> I see what your saying, but I suppose I view my dogs as members of my family and as much as I guess you could compare the injection for dogs the same as a morning after pill, I felt that with only the one cover the likelihood of conception for a dog was so high I couldn't deny it. Admittedly as a mother of two having suffered six miscarriages my value of life is high whether its a spider, dog or person. Even though the timing could not be worse for me, being due to have my have my third child in three weeks, termination of any life without giving it a chance is just not an option for me.
> She is healthy dog, been vet checked, scanned, regularly wormed and received flea treatment and up to date with her immunizations all before pregnancy occurred and we have money set aside in case she needs emergency care during whelping or afterwards. The vet has assured me that there are no reasons why she should not have a healthy litter, and i have purchased all the medical equipment and supplies he has asked me to, I also have a close friend who has been mentoring me, her family breeds Min Pins and Black Russians. I am not doing this lightly I can assure you.
> Any helpful input would be really appreciated on what sorts of foods dogs are receptive to at this stage and are safe, as my dogs are really not used to people foods. Thank you


You choose to have children, some of us don't even have that choice, and you chose to allow your bitch to become pregnant. She didn't plan this, that was your choice, so your choice to risk her life, and the lives of any/all of the unborn pups. I suggest you buy yourself the book of the bitch if you haven't already got a copy, and ditch the thermometer, it will not make the puppies come any sooner, and is obviously just distressing your bitch, I can't believe you actually got to the point of her screaming to be quite honest!

You probably think my post is harsh, yet this is about the fifth or sixth litter of puppies with b*gga all planning, no health tests and the same attitude of 'don't bash me because I'm really responsible and don't want any negative replies' sort of threads on here, and various forums on the internet. It's always the bitch who ends up suffering though, and all the time rescue organisations are picking up the pieces, and doing the hard graft and the dirty job of cleaning up the *mess* ie putting dogs to sleep as there are just too many being bred, sold on, and messed up.


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

wow all i really expected was some advice on safe foods to give my wee dog at the moment. Don't know who to address first. I guess nobody actually actually wont's to offer anything helpful. 
My mother is in good health thank you, at the age of 50 i should hope so too. As a family we have been rescuing dogs, horses, occasionally cats for as long as I can remember we are responsible pet owners. So yes i do know that My wee dogs puppies will be going to my mum for a lovely forever home. I am aware that dogs are different to people and have always found the majority of dog owners to be nothing but helpful so i guess i am a little taken back this morning. 
As to my ability to cope with two children and a newborn along with a litter of pups i am very lucky and have a lot of support, my mum ( a retired midwife) will be staying with us for 6 weeks after the birth of my child and returning home at that point with the puppies, of which the vet expects 3-4. My sister is also on hand as she runs her own saddle making and leather works business from home if we need any more help, and of course my husband. So again i say i am not entering into this lightly
Again any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

mrsadder said:


> wow all i really expected was some advice on safe foods to give my wee dog at the moment. Don't know who to address first. I guess nobody actually actually wont's to offer anything helpful.
> My mother is in good health thank you, at the age of 50 i should hope so too. *As a family we have been rescuing dogs, horses, occasionally cats for as long as I can remember we are responsible pet owners.* So yes i do know that My wee dogs puppies will be going to my mum for a lovely forever home. I am aware that dogs are different to people and have always found the majority of dog owners to be nothing but helpful so i guess i am a little taken back this morning.
> As to my ability to cope with two children and a newborn along with a litter of pups i am very lucky and have a lot of support, my mum ( a retired midwife) will be staying with us for 6 weeks after the birth of my child and returning home at that point with the puppies, of which the vet expects 3-4. My sister is also on hand as she runs her own saddle making and leather works business from home if we need any more help, and of course my husband. So again i say i am not entering into this lightly
> Again any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you


That's the bit you will find hard to convince anyone on here about. If you are aware of the rescue situation because you have been involved in it for so long it is really hard to accept that you are a responsible pet owner to have allowed this to happen. Presumably this girl isn't a rescue as she isn't spayed but wouldn't it have been 'responsible' to have that done. Sorry forgot, you planned a litter (while having first hand knowledge of the rescue situation) but your girl was caught before you wanted her to. Who was responsible when she was accidentally caught?

I do feel for you and it has happened now and you want advice to make the best of a bad situation. It would help if you would admit that it is a bad situation and not try to justify it as the result is that you just dig a bigger hole. Any negative comments on here are out of despair at the situations we all read about every day on here. Your experience is no different to that of far too many. Those of us that use this site regularly just wish people would come on here 'BEFORE' these accidents happen not just to ask advice about how to clean the mess up.

I have never had a litter accidental or otherwise so can't help


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

I suppose I really aught to add here that what I am asking for is advice. On dog food....... The decisions I have made are mine to make, I apologies if it worries anyone so much so you have question it so much. The reason we have not got Mo spayed is because we were intending to breed her the once with the intention of my mum taking the pups. She has always wonted a wee Pomeranian but we had never been able to catch one when we have taken dogs from shelters before so when she first met Mo she fell in love, as you do. Then we began to plan. With becoming pregnant again after i was told it would never happen was a shock, so delayed our plans to breed Mo. Then of course things did not go to plan as Mo was caught. 
After keeping, exercising and caring for 2 horses, 2 cats, and 1 dog while working full time am quite sure my mum is capable of taking on the 3 pups now she has retired.
Agin any advice on food... please


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Have you tried scrambled egg with goats milk and cottage cheese ? Light and digestible . It could be that her advanced pregnancy and imminent whelping is spoiling her appetite. Frozen banana pureed makes a nice ice creamy textured puree, she might enjoy that with yoghurt. 
Kennelgate sell an ice cream sorbet for dogs , no nasties , with carrots and fruits in, she might enjoy that.


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

It's unfortunately too late to do anything about the pregnancy now so there's no point me adding anything else to the very sensible opinions given already.

I do implore you to find more homes for the pups though. A single pup is hard work. Two is more than double that hard work. How much work do you think 3 or 4 will be? That's also if the vet is accurate, pups can be missed very easily on ultrasounds. For your sake I hope there are fewer pups but bear in mind there could also be more. Is your mum prepared to pretty much put her life completely on hold for the foreseeable future while she looks after and gives enough individual attention to a whole litter of puppies?

What breed was the sire of the puppies? I'm sure your girl has been declared healthy by the vet but there's a wealth of difference between that and health _tests_ which are used prior to a dog being used for breeding to determine if there are any hereditary conditions present which could be passed onto the pups. A quick look online suggests that your bitch alone should have been elbow scored and graded for syringomyelia/chiari malformation (if any close relatives have been graded higher than a 0, which I presume you won't know as she's a cross). Poms can also suffer from luxating patella, as can JRTs. JRTs can also be screened for PLL and PRA under the BVA health scheme.

What breed was the sire? Have you any idea of his health status?

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that because the puppies are crosses/mongrels they won't or can't inherit health issues. I adopted a proper mongrel pup from a rescue several years ago. Unfortunately she had inherited an eye condition and she was completely blind by the time she was 18 months old. She required major (and very expensive) surgery and intensive (sometimes unpleasant) aftercare to give her some limited amount of sight back. She coped very well but she shouldn't have had to cope with anything just because someone, for whatever reason, decided to allow her mother to have pups.


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

I really don't expect anyone to 'clean up my mess.' I have always found dog owners to be nothing but friendly and helpful. Which is why my mentor suggested i try a dog forum to see what other people had been giving there dogs as well..... If it makes you or anyone else feel better to write negative comments and nothing useful then i am glad i posted something today even if i have gotten nothing from this at least someone has had the opportunity to have a wee rant and get it off their chest. 
Again any advice would be greatly appreciated


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

We have also had issues with a our Parsons Jack we rescued he had a deformed knee cap it cost us a little over a thousand to have it worked on and reshaped and the physio was slow going but now he is an amazing wee dog wouldn't change him for the world.


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> We have also had issues with a our Parsons Jack we rescued he had a deformed knee cap it cost us a little over a thousand to have it worked on and reshaped and the physio was slow going but now he is an amazing wee dog wouldn't change him for the world.


So you've had a dog with an inherited health condition and yet have bred indiscriminately all same? The mind boggles.

I still advise you to find more homes than just your mother for the pups and encourage the new owners to get very good insurance.


----------



## wileys mum (Oct 27, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> I really don't expect anyone to 'clean up my mess.' I have always found dog owners to be nothing but friendly and helpful. Which is why my mentor suggested i try a dog forum to see what other people had been giving there dogs as well..... If it makes you or anyone else feel better to write negative comments and nothing useful then i am glad i posted something today even if i have gotten nothing from this at least someone has had the opportunity to have a wee rant and get it off their chest.
> Again any advice would be greatly appreciated


These posts are cropping up more and more that you orginally posted and ppl get annoyed because of how many dogs are pts a week because of irresponsible breeding and how many sick dogs are out there because of not health testing etc , members dont set out to have ago at you for there own satifaction or to get things off there chests they do it because they genuinly care , i guess some members work in rescue and have to see the needle been given which i can imagine is heart wrenching

I never normally cause any arguments on forums and i normally try to keep my opinions to myself as i think its wrong to judge someone on a forum , but when it comes to this i do join in because its the poor dogs at the end of the day , i do beleive that most ppl in your situation honestly dont realise the consequences 

Its nice that the pups arent goin to be homeless and end up in rescue , but my understanding is if your pups werent even born or thought of , your mum could of rescued another dog thats probebly on death row now , we really need to stop this kind of breeding as its the poor dogs that suffer including your bitch if you was to lose her through pregnancy , dogs in rescue is out of hand , i dont even work in rescue but i read the internet and it makes me very very sad for these poor dogs some even expensive pedegree's like my boy 700 quid dog on his 4th home at 3 years old

sorry i can't offer any advice on what to do or feed etc as i wouldnt have a clue


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

This is what I mean about digging a bigger hole. 

You have a mentor and their advice is to go on a forum  what do they think the job of mentor is ???????

You have experienced serious and costly health problems in a dog but still perpetuate the cycle. 

Not good.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I did give advice, I said to buy the book of the bitch, which has a section on feeding pregnant bitches, and the pups. 

I just don't understand how anyone remotely involved with rescue would allow this sort of litter to happen, it's heart breaking. There is just no justification for accidental litters to happen, if your mother wanted a pomeranian, why not go to a reputeable breeder who health tests their breeding stock?


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've also given several tips on palatable foods to tempt your little bitch - did you see them ?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I will say to avoid supplements, they really don't need it, as long as they have good quality food, that should be enough for a bitch to gain what she needs to put into the developing pups. It's also not uncommon for bitches to go off their food.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

mrsadder said:


> I suppose I really aught to add here that what I am asking for is advice. On dog food....... The decisions I have made are mine to make, I apologies if it worries anyone so much so you have question it so much. The reason we have not got Mo spayed is because we were intending to breed her the once with the intention of my mum taking the pups. *She has always wonted a wee Pomeranian but we had never been able to catch one when we have taken dogs from shelters before so when she first met Mo she fell in love, as you do*. Then we began to plan. With becoming pregnant again after i was told it would never happen was a shock, so delayed our plans to breed Mo. Then of course things did not go to plan as Mo was caught.
> After keeping, exercising and caring for 2 horses, 2 cats, and 1 dog while working full time am quite sure my mum is capable of taking on the 3 pups now she has retired.
> Agin any advice on food... please


She won't be _getting _a Pom (or 4 ) though, will she? Because your girl is a Pom x and God knows what dad is (why do I have the feeling it's your male? :sosp. That means the pups will be nothing more than mongrels, and if your male IS the father, then the pups are more Jack Russel crosses than Pom x.

Your mum wanted a Pom - she could have tried different rescues, or even Googled Pomeranian rescue:

Pomeranian Dogs for Adoption and Rescue

Really no need for you to let your girl get caught and have a litter, just to satisfy your mum's craving for a breed she won't be getting anyway.



mrsadder said:


> I really don't expect anyone to 'clean up my mess.' I have always found dog owners to be nothing but friendly and helpful. Which is why my mentor suggested i try a dog forum to see what other people had been giving there dogs as well..... If it makes you or anyone else feel better to write negative comments and nothing useful then i am glad i posted something today even if i have gotten nothing from this at least someone has had the opportunity to have a wee rant and get it off their chest.
> Again any advice would be greatly appreciated


Nobody's posting just to have a go at you. We're not doing this because it makes us feel better. You say you've rescued plenty of animals before and yet you still went and allowed this pregnancy to continue "because you value life". If you valued life that much, you'd have been on here a lot sooner, asking about your options. You'd have learned about the mismate jab (my girl was spayed within months of me rescuing her and yet even I know about the mismate jab) and you've have booked it her in for it. Did you actually read the link I posted?


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> wow all i really expected was some advice on safe foods to give my wee dog at the moment. Don't know who to address first. I guess nobody actually actually wont's to offer anything helpful.
> My mother is in good health thank you, at the age of 50 i should hope so too. As a family we have been rescuing dogs, horses, occasionally cats for as long as I can remember* we are responsible pet owners*. So yes i do know that My wee dogs puppies will be going to my mum for a lovely forever home. I am aware that dogs are different to people and have always found the majority of dog owners to be nothing but helpful so i guess i am a little taken back this morning.
> As to my ability to cope with two children and a newborn along with a litter of pups i am very lucky and have a lot of support, my mum ( a retired midwife) will be staying with us for 6 weeks after the birth of my child and returning home at that point with the puppies, of which the vet expects 3-4. My sister is also on hand as she runs her own saddle making and leather works business from home if we need any more help, and of course my husband. So again i say i am not entering into this lightly
> Again any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you


No, you're really not.

All you talked about in your second post was the things that affect *you*. No thoughts at all for the real welfare of the pups and any nasty conditions they may inherit as a result of no planning and no health testing of the parents. No consideration for your own dog and what SHE is now having to go through because of YOUR carelessness and poor choices.

Shame on you.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> It's unfortunately too late to do anything about the pregnancy now so there's no point me adding anything else to the very sensible opinions given already.
> 
> I do implore you to find more homes for the pups though. A single pup is hard work. Two is more than double that hard work. How much work do you think 3 or 4 will be? That's also if the vet is accurate, pups can be missed very easily on ultrasounds. For your sake I hope there are fewer pups but bear in mind there could also be more. Is your mum prepared to pretty much put her life completely on hold for the foreseeable future while she looks after and gives enough individual attention to a whole litter of puppies?
> 
> ...


To risk ANY pup developing these issues......OP don't you *DARE* try and claim you 'care about life' - you are possibly condemning some of those pups to horrendous pain and suffering if they develop these conditions.

I am utterly appalled.


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Thank you so much susierainbow, I missed seeing your post I have tried her with scrambled egg and yogurt she was taking it till two days ago. I will look into the doggy sorbet, we have always given frozen blueberries on hot days especially with all there health benefits for the older dogs as advised by our vets never come across the sorbet though. Thank you so much i really appreciate your help. 
Book of the bitch is great and has been like a little bible to me over the past few months. My mentor had suggested we try offal and chicken and rice which is what she uses, but also suggested it didn't hurt to see what worked for others. I was aware that she may go off her food and this could be a sign in the next few days things may set into motion, we are very excited. 
As to how this happened Mo was on an extendable lead which my fault I had not noticed had been nibbled while i was bending down to clean her mess she pulled and broke free, it snapped. She is usually great off a lead and has only been on when in season as she can get a little flightly she refused to come back, and i only caught her when she was tied to wee long haired chi. Had it been a larger dog we would have had to of gone with the injection but my vet was happy with us going ahead as he knows us so well now. 
Thank you again for advice susierainbow


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> i only caught her when she was tied to wee long haired chi.


Another breed which is prone to luxating patella and can also be affected by syringomyelia/chiari malformation :nonod: :mad2:


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

She really needs to be on a good quality complete puppy food.

If she's being fussy, you could try softening it and mixing in some chicken or beef to tempt her.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> Thank you so much susierainbow, I missed seeing your post I have tried her with scrambled egg and yogurt she was taking it till two days ago. I will look into the doggy sorbet, we have always given frozen blueberries on hot days especially with all there health benefits for the older dogs as advised by our vets never come across the sorbet though. Thank you so much i really appreciate your help.
> Book of the bitch is great and has been like a little bible to me over the past few months. My mentor had suggested we try offal and chicken and rice which is what she uses, but also suggested it didn't hurt to see what worked for others. I was aware that she may go off her food and this could be a sign in the next few days things may set into motion, we are very excited.
> As to how this happened Mo was on an extendable lead which my fault I had not noticed had been nibbled while i was bending down to clean her mess she pulled and broke free, it snapped. She is usually great off a lead and has only been on when in season as she can get a little flightly she refused to come back, and i only caught her when she was tied to wee long haired chi. Had it been a larger dog we would have had to of gone with the injection but my vet was happy with us going ahead as he knows us so well now.
> Thank you again for advice susierainbow


I would avoid offal with a heavily pregnant bitch, they really do not need anything different to what they are normally fed. If she isn't eating, her body will be telling her what she does and doesn't need. As long as she is getting plenty of fluids right now, and the litter is imminent, I wouldn't be worrying hugely. She may not really feel like eating when the pups are on the ground either, at least initially.

Vets do not generally give owners advice on breeding decisions, they give advice on the dog, and since your bitch is breathing, has four legs (not always necessary as I've seen a bitch with only two legs being bred on from) and a waggy tail, the vast majority of vets will say it's absolutely fine for you to breed. After all, you are a paying customer, and they will likely make some money out of the situation. It's rare for any vet to give actual advice about breeding, ie understands about health testing, not a health check, and will be honest with you about the risks to your bitch.

Blueberries are safe in small quantities.


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Am sure if we had gotten both parents tested and had a litter the chances of any deformities would of been massively reduced, am really not refuting that fact in any way. If any of the pups are born with such terrible deformities that there life will be so painful and horrendous it would not be worth living then we would undoubtedly euthanise, and be glad we had been blessed with any healthy pups. If any pups have any deformities like max, our parsons jack then as it stands we have the money to repair them and offer a gd long life like he has. Some times things happen in life by accident and it really is how we deal with it that can make all the difference. Did we have a difficult decision to make? yes. Did we make the right choice as a family? only time will tell. But we made a decision that best sits with the way we are as a family. If offends you as i have said before i apologies. That was not my intention. I am merely looking for advice and have most definatley appreciated it where given thank you


----------



## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Another bloody irresponsible idiot who doesn't give a care in the world for their pets and their offspring. I love the way these folk describe themselves as caring responsible owners who really can't see anything wrong with their actions, it's like those people who hoard animals and who can't see the fact they are living in all sorts of horrors as anything wrong!!! The fact you have got a dog which has cost you a bomb in an inheritable health problem and you are still willing to go ahead with this litter is just beyond words tbh, I hope your mum has serious savings that she's willing to fork out on these mutts if they do go wrong, if your one dog cost that much imagine what 4 or more could potentially cost you over their life times!!!

Having rescued 4 lab x rottie pups from one litter along time ago and keeping all four it was a really huuuuge amount of work, 10 times more than if I just had got 4 different dogs at different ages, luckily they all got on and were pretty chilled out and we live on a farm so they had alot of exercise, but they needed one 2 one training and socialising as well as in a group to enable me to walk them without them buggering off on a walk and doing their own thing which litter mates always do, especially terriers!! I've also kept 2 litter mates out of our first and only litter of ridgebacks, on their own the breed is usually very bid able and pretty quick at obedience, the 2 together however were a law unto themselves, and could not be trusted with anything livestock wise until they were 2 and we had done serious training with them, I also couldn't let them off their leads on a walk until they were 2 either as they would run off! I would never do it with a litter of terriers or their crosses though - can you imagine the fights and the prey drive with a whole bunch!!! My aunt rescued 2 terrier mixes from the pound and they were put down at 2yrs old as they continually escaped to chase anything that moved, they killed both of her cats, the last straw was 2 sheep they killed, they had to pay the farmer for their loss too - hope your mum is prepared for that as well!!??

Having seen someone locally to us who brought their accidental litter of staffs into the vets where I worked, she too kept all 4 in the litter, by 2yrs old she had re-homed all but 1 as they fought like crazy, were almost impossible to control as they listened to each other and not their owners, they also started picking on their parents, and they would act as a gang and terrorise anything in their path, it was a mess!! 
So my advice to you would be to get an emergency spey as you obviously haven't a clue about anything, the fact you are asking such basic questions on a forum at this late stage in your dogs pregnancy, even with an alleged mentor, is rather worrying, and the fact you want to give all these high energy, high prey drive dogs to one person is even more worrying!! Also the fact you admit to wanting to breed this mutt on purpose at some point, but are posting now only because it's at an inconvenient time for you is just horrendous!!!!  Head desk, what is wrong with people nowadays??!!!!!!


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks sleeping lion, i suppose even though i knew she would loose her appetite seeing it is just so out of character. Well whelping room is ready and supplies all in ready to go. Now just to wait.....


----------



## wileys mum (Oct 27, 2013)

AlexArt said:


> Another bloody irresponsible idiot who doesn't give a care in the world for their pets and their offspring. I love the way these folk describe themselves as caring responsible owners who really can't see anything wrong with their actions, it's like those people who hoard animals and who can't see the fact they are living in all sorts of horrors as anything wrong!!! The fact you have got a dog which has cost you a bomb in an inheritable health problem and you are still willing to go ahead with this litter is just beyond words tbh, I hope your mum has serious savings that she's willing to fork out on these mutts if they do go wrong, if your one dog cost that much imagine what 4 or more could potentially cost you over their life times!!!
> 
> Having rescued 4 lab x rottie pups from one litter along time ago and keeping all four it was a really huuuuge amount of work, 10 times more than if I just had got 4 different dogs at different ages, luckily they all got on and were pretty chilled out and we live on a farm so they had alot of exercise, but they needed one 2 one training and socialising as well as in a group to enable me to walk them without them buggering off on a walk and doing their own thing which litter mates always do, especially terriers!! I've also kept 2 litter mates out of our first and only litter of ridgebacks, on their own the breed is usually very bid able and pretty quick at obedience, the 2 together however were a law unto themselves, and could not be trusted with anything livestock wise until they were 2 and we had done serious training with them, I also couldn't let them off their leads on a walk until they were 2 either as they would run off! I would never do it with a litter of terriers or their crosses though - can you imagine the fights and the prey drive with a whole bunch!!! My aunt rescued 2 terrier mixes from the pound and they were put down at 2yrs old as they continually escaped to chase anything that moved, they killed both of her cats, the last straw was 2 sheep they killed, they had to pay the farmer for their loss too - hope your mum is prepared for that as well!!??
> 
> ...


People just dont seem to get it , a youngish lad that lives a few streets away from me got two male non kc reg blue staffies from a BYB on pets4homes , i said to him why have you got two pups from the same litter let alone males , he said i felt sorry for the other one . not blaming him completly as hes young and doesnt know infact i didnt know the risks untill i read the forums etc , but thats with buying from a BYB as any reputuble one wouldnt of sold them together, i havent seen him for months now but last i heard one had started to attack the other they were only about 6 months when this started not heard anything more since that, so my reackoning is there both probebely in rescue now  or been rehomed


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Yes the timing is not perfect, inconvenient? when is anything in life convenient? You can do everything right life, get married, get a mortgage, have a child, get a dog and I can guarantee you that every part of it will have its inconveniences. Is what am asking a basic question. Yes. Your right. I was hoping to draw on the knowledge of others who have years of experience, and for those that have assisted thank you so much. The answer to your other question is yes funds are really not an issue for us as a family we could easily afford horses, dogs and cats. Money is not an issue.


----------



## wileys mum (Oct 27, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> Thank you so much susierainbow, I missed seeing your post I have tried her with scrambled egg and yogurt she was taking it till two days ago. I will look into the doggy sorbet, we have always given frozen blueberries on hot days especially with all there health benefits for the older dogs as advised by our vets never come across the sorbet though. Thank you so much i really appreciate your help.
> Book of the bitch is great and has been like a little bible to me over the past few months. My mentor had suggested we try offal and chicken and rice which is what she uses, but also suggested it didn't hurt to see what worked for others. I was aware that she may go off her food and this could be a sign in the next few days things may set into motion, we are very excited.
> As to how this happened Mo was on an extendable lead which my fault I had not noticed had been nibbled while i was bending down to clean her mess she pulled and broke free, it snapped. She is usually great off a lead and has only been on when in season as she can get a little flightly she refused to come back, and i only caught her when she was tied to wee long haired chi. Had it been a larger dog we would have had to of gone with the injection but my vet was happy with us going ahead as he knows us so well now.
> Thank you again for advice susierainbow


Thats very unfortunate  but you did have a choice to get the injection so the pregnancy didnt have to carry on , whats done is done now tho


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Seems education really doesn't work for some sadly  This is the second post in a matter of weeks from apparently responsible owners who have pregnant dogs and not a shred of knowledge on anything to do with the pregnancy or overall care of the bitch. It's very disheartening. I understand you wanting to seek advice now the deed is done OP, but why on earth did you not do your research beforehand? Why is it that you intended to breed her anyway "for a puppy for your mum", when there are countless puppies and older dogs languishing in rescue homes up and down the country that would have been a great fit for your mum, and I'm sure extra grateful for that land and dedication your mum can provide! 

Bear in mind that pregnancy can, and does, go wrong. There is a very real possibility you could lose your bitch and/or the puppies if complications arise. Good thing money is no issue as you're going to need it!


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> Hi, this is my first time on a forum, and am seeking advice really. before any one becomes judgmental, yes my wee dog was involved in an accidental mating, no i don't believe in abortion of any kind, and yes i have a home for all the expected puppies. My Mother has recently retired and over the past two years we have lost two horses, one dog, and two cats to old age, she has a lot of land and is taking the whole litter! *so all the pups will stay together and have an idyllic forever home*. Completely spoiled now my sister and i have left home!
> 
> This is a recipe for disaster and completely unfair on the poor puppies.
> 
> Getting back to my query, My wee dog is a delightful Pomeranian cross jack Russell, she was covered once in her third season. We had been intending to breed her the once for the puppies for my mum but not this time as i my self am currently 36 weeks pregnant. Any way we are now on day 59 and been off her food for a few days, i have done a lot of reading up and seen that it could be an indication of imminent whelping in the next few days. I am unable to take her temperature rectally the last time i tried ( with lubrication)she cried and it sounded like she was screeching, I don't wont to put her through that again. Is there any other way i can tell? and please what people food would anyone recommend. she wont eat eggs, cheese. Only home made chicken soup and chicken but its given her diarrhea.


I really can't be bothered to reply to the rest of the sentimental stupidity of putting your poor bitch through pregnancy but FFS do not let all the puppies stay together.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> I suppose I really aught to add here that what I am asking for is advice. On dog food....... The decisions I have made are mine to make, I apologies if it worries anyone so much so you have question it so much. The reason we have not got Mo spayed is because we were intending to breed her the once with the intention of my mum taking the pups. She has always wonted a wee Pomeranian but we had never been able to catch one when we have taken dogs from shelters before so when she first met Mo she fell in love, as you do. Then we began to plan. With becoming pregnant again after i was told it would never happen was a shock, so delayed our plans to breed Mo. Then of course things did not go to plan as Mo was caught.
> After keeping, exercising and caring for 2 horses, 2 cats, and 1 dog while working full time* am quite sure my mum is capable of taking on the 3 pups now she has retired.* Agin any advice on food... please


You should your complete ignorance about dogs and raising puppies, despite your insistence that you are experienced owners. These pups need to find individual homes. I suggest you find out and read up on littermate syndrome.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The thing is OP, you keep saying you're responsible, and that you care about your dogs, horses, cats etc, yet it's your bitch who is going to suffer. Having a litter of pups is not cute and fluffy, it's bl**dy hard work, and can change the temperament/character of your bitch forever. So whilst you are saying money isn't an object, and that the pups will all have loving homes for life etc, you can't guarantee that, and because there are absolutely no health tests in place, and you have no real idea of the conditions either parent dog could be carrying, you could be condemning a litter of pups to a life of suffering, or even a short life before having to be put to sleep. You could be condemning your bitch to death because not all bitches make it through, a quick read through this section and you will see some of the heart breaking stories from well planned and well thought out litters. So having enough money, or thinking that you are a caring, responsible owner, really does not make one iota of a difference to your bitch and any possible pups should anything go wrong. 

This is a forum of animal lovers, and whilst these responses might seem harsh to you, they are simply truthful, and not only for your benefit, but for anyone else reading who thinks it's a great idea to allow their bitch to randomly procreate. And I can tell you now, the guilt you feel having to put your bitch through a c-section, or having to make the heart breaking decision to put pups to sleep, is horrendous, even when you've planned things as well as you possibly can, things can and do go wrong.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> We have also had issues with a our Parsons Jack we rescued he had a deformed knee cap it cost us a little over a thousand to have it worked on and reshaped and the physio was slow going but now he is an amazing wee dog wouldn't change him for the world.


Is this the sire of the pups? If not, who is the sire?


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> I suppose I really aught to add here that what I am asking for is advice. On dog food....... The decisions I have made are mine to make, I apologies if it worries anyone so much so you have question it so much. The reason we have not got Mo spayed is because we were intending to breed her the once with the intention of my mum taking the pups. She has always wonted a wee Pomeranian but we had never been able to catch one when we have taken dogs from shelters before so when she first met Mo she fell in love, as you do. Then we began to plan. With becoming pregnant again after i was told it would never happen was a shock, so delayed our plans to breed Mo. *Then of course things did not go to plan as Mo was caught. * After keeping, exercising and caring for 2 horses, 2 cats, and 1 dog while working full time am quite sure my mum is capable of taking on the 3 pups now she has retired.
> Agin any advice on food... please


Who was she caught by?


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Is this the sire of the pups? If not, who is the sire?


Apparently the sire is a long haired chi:



> i only caught her when she was tied to wee long haired chi


Given that the OP was apparently happy to use the mismate jab should the bitch be caught by a larger breed, it's amazingly coincidental that she happened to be caught by a small breed.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Apparently the sire is a long haired chi:
> 
> Thanks was replying as I was reading through and hadn't got to that bit - a pomchi - how convenient!
> 
> Given that the OP was apparently happy to use the mismate jab should the bitch be caught by a larger breed, it's amazingly coincidental that she happened to be caught by a small breed.


I agree, poor bitch and poor puppies. Wonder where her mentor is if she's having to ask these questions on a pet forum? My bull***t radar is buzzing.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

What another responsible loving dog owner with a litter....... ??????? Don't tell me love their dogs do all kinds of wonderful stuff blah blah blah all me me me me!

All the pups going to live together and it's going to be all sweetness and light! Guess they have never heard of litter mate syndrome!!!! A cross breed who they were planning to mate, yeah real responsible and loving!!

Humans really are self centred twats!


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

My wee dog is cared for extremely well, she may not be KC but that makes her no less loved or valued (other than her monetary worth because she is not a 'pure breed' to us there is no amount of money that could be exchanged for the companionship of dog) Its not just cross breeds and mongrels in shelters there are plenty of pure bred dogs. So by your own reasoning you should stop breeding dogs and start rescuing, or is the importance of maintaining your lines too important? For breeders who are selling their litters I am sure you ask the right questions, and hope you pick the right owners but you can never know where all of your pups will be in 2 or 5 years times. I will. 
Yes i have only been able to educate my self using books and speaking to a vet, and mentor so i am attempting to further my knowledge by asking questions. Isn't this generally how we learn? I wonder that it troubles you so much my post that you took the time to reply with no useful input other than to lord your superior position on this subject over my self


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> Am sure if we had gotten both parents tested and had a litter the chances of any deformities would of been massively reduced, am really not refuting that fact in any way. If any of the pups are born with such terrible deformities that there life will be so painful and horrendous it would not be worth living then we would undoubtedly euthanise, and be glad we had been blessed with any healthy pups. If any pups have any deformities like max, our parsons jack then as it stands we have the money to repair them and offer a gd long life like he has.* Some times things happen in life by accident and it really is how we deal with it that can make all the difference. *Did we have a difficult decision to make? yes. Did we make the right choice as a family? only time will tell. But we made a decision that best sits with the way we are as a family. If offends you as i have said before i apologies. That was not my intention. I am merely looking for advice and have most definatley appreciated it where given thank you


But it is not YOU that will have to endure and suffer the pain - it is the PUPPIES.

You could easily have arranged the mismate and spared both your bitch and the pups any problems at all.

You chose not to.

And you still can't see what a selfish and immoral choice that was on your part.


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> Yes i have only been able to educate my self using books and speaking to a vet, and mentor so i am attempting to further my knowledge by asking questions. Isn't this generally how we learn?


Of course it is. But when undertaking something that can have major impacts not only on the life of your own dog/s but the puppies produced the sensible thing would have been to do your research _before_ breeding.

If you had researched adequately beforehand and you truly are a caring owner I highly doubt you would have gone ahead with such a mating. Unfortunately too many people like you just think about having cute little puppies and don't bother to consider the ethics of what they are doing.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

OP I think your user name says it all really. It is indeed incredibly sad that these pups may well end up in pain and even agony if some of the breed specific conditions occur. 

Yet still all you can go on about is the amount of money you have???

Tell me - will money help your poor bitch if she has to undergo an emergency c section and endure huge stress and risks and discomfort?

Will money help the pups who inevitably are going to end up being put into rescue and rehomed when it transpires that your Mum can't cope with them all?

That is, assuming I even believe this fairytale about the farm and all the dogs roaming free.......I have this funny feeling that you plan to sell the pups. Which makes you a total backyard breeder and a rotten human being, frankly.

Don't tell us again that you care about your dogs. Actions speak louder than words. And your actions scream 'selfish'.


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I'm absolutely disgusted at some of the comments on here....ok, so it's an open forum and everyone's entitled to their view but really....all the OP wants is some advice on feeding a pregnant bitch not these kind of comments. It's just not helpful or necessary.

So the OPs situation isn't great and there aren't any health tests but it was an accidental mating. You all seem to think the mismate jab should have been used but how many of you have actually used it? It isn't guaranteed to end a pregnancy ..... it's not a magic potion! 

It seems to me you all just enjoy letting your venom fly at the slightest excuse, and don't say your fed up with seeing this type of post, I've heard that excuse before and quite frankly I don't believe it. You just enjoy being nasty!

OP your little bitch should be on a good quality puppy food, I also give a little fish and egg to my pickiest eater, she loves it....I've even given her fish fingers! I believe anything they eat is a bonus when they are being difficult. Natures diet is also a hit with her.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> My wee dog is cared for extremely well, she may not be KC but that makes her no less loved or valued (other than her monetary worth because she is not a 'pure breed' to us there is no amount of money that could be exchanged for the companionship of dog) Its not just cross breeds and mongrels in shelters there are plenty of pure bred dogs. So by your own reasoning you should stop breeding dogs and start rescuing, or is the importance of maintaining your lines too important? For breeders who are selling their litters I am sure you ask the right questions, and hope you pick the right owners but you can never know where all of your pups will be in 2 or 5 years times. I will.
> Yes i have only been able to educate my self using books and speaking to a vet, and mentor so i am attempting to further my knowledge by asking questions. Isn't this generally how we learn? I wonder that it troubles you so much my post that you took the time to reply with no useful input other than to lord your superior position on this subject over my self


Go read the amount of people such as yourself who come on here asking for advise, you have a heavily pregnant bitch with no clue! Being KC registered isn't the issue, you have a bitch with no health tests "accidentally" mated to a dog with no health tests and yet you think a random "accident" is a fine way to have a litter, you know about the mismating jab yet you chose to go ahead with the pregnancy, you obviously know what people's reactions would be and the general consensus on it because of your comments in your first post!!!

Most responsible breeders know where their puppies are from the day they leave them till the day those animals pass!

Have you heard if litter mate syndrome?

Superior opinions hmmm that be those who care about responsible breeding then rather than those who think just throwing two dogs together is fine.

You are willing to risk your bitches life and of those puppies because you want and you've a cheek to accuse others of having superior opinions. Let's hope your bitches cross wasn't a Large JRT!!!!!
So how old is your bitch?


----------



## wileys mum (Oct 27, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> My wee dog is cared for extremely well, she may not be KC but that makes her no less loved or valued (other than her monetary worth because she is not a 'pure breed' to us there is no amount of money that could be exchanged for the companionship of dog) Its not just cross breeds and mongrels in shelters there are plenty of pure bred dogs. So by your own reasoning you should stop breeding dogs and start rescuing, or is the importance of maintaining your lines too important? For breeders who are selling their litters I am sure you ask the right questions, and hope you pick the right owners but you can never know where all of your pups will be in 2 or 5 years times. I will.
> Yes i have only been able to educate my self using books and speaking to a vet, and mentor so i am attempting to further my knowledge by asking questions. Isn't this generally how we learn? I wonder that it troubles you so much my post that you took the time to reply with no useful input other than to lord your superior position on this subject over my self


You would of got the same responce if you had mated two purebred dogs without health tests etc , proper breeders health test , they find the right dogs to breed from to better the breed , mines a purebred blue staffordshire bull terrier with champions in his bloodlines altho there quite far back now  and of course i think he's beautiful and so does most ppl that meet him , and the person before me must of thought the same as they flaming used him as a stud dog  but do i think he's good breeding stock , no i damwell dont for many reasons


----------



## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

Just gonna sit back here and lurk until we divert the conversation on to square dogs with or without wolfish characteristics 

Yeah, right... This mouth cant stay shut! 

Okay, OP... Maya Angelou put it beautifully: Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.
I think this applies here. Now you know better. Please do better by your bitch and the future puppies. For one, I really think you need to have a back up plan for the bitchs whelping and early weeks in case you are unavailable. At 36 weeks preggers *you* could whelp at any time yourself, and depending on the circumstances, you may end up needing your husband and your mother to help care for you or your other children. What happens to your bitch then? Alternately your bitch could have complications requiring far more care than anticipated. Have you ever whelped a litter? Have you ever hand-raised a litter? Do you *really* know what to expect?
I dont mean to be a negative nelly here, just trying to be realistic. 

Secondly, please reconsider the pups all going to the same home to live the idyllic Disney version of a happily ever after. Look up littermate syndrome. Its real, its not good, its unfair to the pups to set them up to fail like that. 

Theres several other thinks Im itching to comment on, but I think Ill keep it on the shorter side and hope some of this sinks in....


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Darth said:


> I'm absolutely disgusted at some of the comments on here....ok, so it's an open forum and everyone's entitled to their view but really....all the OP wants is some advice on feeding a pregnant bitch not these kind of comments. It's just not helpful or necessary.
> 
> So the OPs situation isn't great and there aren't any health tests but it was an accidental mating. You all seem to think the mismate jab should have been used but how many of you have actually used it? It isn't guaranteed to end a pregnancy ..... it's not a magic potion!
> 
> ...


Hold on while I get my breath back from laughing..... I shall hang my head in shame coz the mighty Darth told us off!

Go read up on litter mate syndrome!


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Well said Darth, I was just about to say similar, some very toxic comments in this thread. Someone thinking of breeding, but who probably shouldn't are quite likely to see a toxic thread like this and not bother asking anything. 

Risk to bitches, cost of c-sections, risk to puppies, all applies to responsible breeders too. Reading this thread there is no such thing as a responsible or ethical breeder, they're all risking their bitches' lives for their own gain. And where do you think all these genetic disorders came from in the first place? People breeding dogs, it didn't just happen by accident.

You may be right that siblings are better placed separately, you may be right that there's a real risk of disease or disorder given the individual breeds of the parents, you may be right that it's wise and responsible to test for known disorders, you may be right on a number of things, but honestly.. 

:thumbdown: to the way some are putting their point over.


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Hold on while I get my breath back from laughing..... I shall hang my head in shame coz the mighty Darth told us off!
> 
> Go read up on litter mate syndrome!


I know all about litter mate syndrome thank you Meezey. 
The OP didn't ask about that only about how to feed her bitch.

Give advice instead of shouting your mouth off .....now that would be novel!


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Darth said:


> I know all about litter mate syndrome thank you Meezey.
> The OP didn't ask about that only about how to feed her bitch.
> 
> Give advice instead of shouting your mouth off .....now that would be novel!


Hmmm says the person who only contributes to look down their nose at others!!

Don't know about you but generally on forums I type, wasn't aware of any vocals, less I have magic fingers


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Elles said:


> And where do you think all these genetic disorders came from in the first place? People breeding dogs, it didn't just happen by accident.


Precisely, so slinging together a jumble of breeds which share various health conditions ranging from those correctable by surgery to those which are devastatingly painful and life-limiting is precisely the sort of thing people _shouldn't_ be doing.

All breeding is selfish, it brings no benefit to the individual dogs involved. However if we want to own dogs (again, arguably a selfish thing) they have to come from somewhere. All breeding is not equal, there are always risks but we owe it to the dog and bitch to minimise risks at the point of mating, to the bitch to minimise risks to her during pregnancy and birth, and to the pups (and the future of dogs in general) to minimise the risk they will develop preventable health problems in the future.


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Hmmm says the person who only contributes to look down their nose at others!!:


Isn't this precisely what's been happening here already?

Everyone thinking they know better than the OP about how to deal with the situation?


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

OP, you may struggle to get your bitch eat much at all until she's had her pups.

At this stage, it's really about tempting her. Offer her chicken, beef, fish, anything you think she may have a go at.

However, after her pups are born, it really is essential she's on a diet high enough in calcium and fat and the best way to ensure that is to get her on a good quality, complete puppy food.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Darth said:


> Isn't this precisely what's been happening here already?
> 
> Everyone thinking they know better than the OP about how to deal with the situation?


No unless of course you think irresponsible breeding is okay, and think that we should just ignore it, or ignore the fact that rehoming a whole litter let alone 2 puppies together is wrong!

I might "shout my mouth off" but I won't just sit back and ignore irresponsible breeding, be they pedigree or cross breed! Irresponsible is irresponsible!

I am sick of people not giving a fiddles about the long term welfare of dogs! If that disgusts you so be it no skin off my nose but irresponsible people who claim to "love" their dogs disgust me more!


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Darth said:


> I'm absolutely disgusted at some of the comments on here....ok, so it's an open forum and everyone's entitled to their view but really....all the OP wants is some advice on feeding a pregnant bitch not these kind of comments. It's just not helpful or necessary.
> 
> So the OPs situation isn't great and there aren't any health tests but it was an accidental mating. You all seem to think the mismate jab should have been used but how many of you have actually used it? It isn't guaranteed to end a pregnancy ..... it's not a magic potion!
> 
> ...


Sadly we can't have it both ways. Moaning about puppy farms and BYB's, and how education is the key and then in the next breath excuse these "accidents" and continue to turn a blind eye and sigh to ourselves "these things happen". In this day and age with the amount of information out there on the big wide web, there are no excuses!


----------



## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

I think its fair to say that no one reads a strongly worded response about ones own failings and says Oh wow, youre so right, Ill change my ways! 
IOW, a harsh post aimed at the OP is more likely to make the OP defensive than open to change. And in exactly the same way, a harsh post aimed at the harsh posters is more likely to make the harsh posters defensive rather than reflective. As I think the recent exchanges indicate 

Obviously humans have a choice about participating on forums, dogs dont often have much choice about their welfare, so the stake are a bit different. But either way, if you want to be heard the approach matters. If you want to just be right, to hell with the approach 

(Im right BTW )


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Darth said:


> I'm absolutely disgusted at some of the comments on here....ok, so it's an open forum and everyone's entitled to their view but really....all the OP wants is some advice on feeding a pregnant bitch not these kind of comments. It's just not helpful or necessary.
> 
> So the OPs situation isn't great and there aren't any health tests but it was an accidental mating. You all seem to think the mismate jab should have been used but how many of you have actually used it? It isn't guaranteed to end a pregnancy ..... it's not a magic potion!
> 
> ...


'venom'?

Well, *maybe *we're outraged and worried about the severe pain some of these pups might end up suffering because of this 'accidental' mating.

How do you know it was accidental, by the way? The OP has mentioned they were thinking of breeding anyway...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> I'm absolutely disgusted at some of the comments on here....ok, so it's an open forum and everyone's entitled to their view but really....all the OP wants is some advice on feeding a pregnant bitch not these kind of comments. It's just not helpful or necessary.
> 
> So the OPs situation isn't great and there aren't any health tests but it was an accidental mating. *You all seem to think the mismate jab should have been used but how many of you have actually used it? It isn't guaranteed to end a pregnancy ..... it's not a magic potion! *
> 
> ...


Um, no, because believe it or not, I've never allowed my dogs to have an accident, and that's looking after numerous entire dogs and bitches! But yes, I would use it if I ever had to (which is unlikely because I care too much for my girls to risk an *accidental* litter), because Alizin is a lot safer than the old mismate jabs, and if your bitch had pyometra, that would be the exact drug they would use to treat her.

Advice has been given, this is an open forum, people are entitled to post what the heck they like as long as it's not against forum rules.


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Um, no, because believe it or not, I've never allowed my dogs to have an accident, and that's looking after numerous entire dogs and bitches! But yes, I would use it if I ever had to (which is unlikely because I care too much for my girls to risk an *accidental* litter), because Alizin is a lot safer than the old mismate jabs, and if your bitch had pyometra, that would be the exact drug they would use to treat her.
> 
> Advice has been given, this is an open forum, people are entitled to post what the heck they like as long as it's not against forum rules.


Well aren't you the lucky one.... up to now. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. An accidental mating can happen to any one who has entire dogs and unspeyed bitches, and as an experienced owner you should know that.

I didnt say anyone couldn't post, I said it isn't helpful to be so nasty in their comments. 
Please read posts properly before you comment, getting it wrong isn't helpful either


----------



## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

Darth said:


> Well aren't you the lucky one.... up to now. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. An accidental mating can happen to any one who has entire dogs and unspeyed bitches, and as an experienced owner you should know that.


To be fair, I know a lot of responsible breeders and owners with entire dogs, who have had dogs for decades (30, 40 years) and none of them have oopsie litters. Which frankly does lead me to conclude that its the irresponsible owners who end up with accidental litters.



Darth said:


> I didnt say anyone couldn't post, I said it isn't helpful to be so nasty in their comments.
> Please read posts properly before you comment, getting it wrong isn't helpful either


Um, Darth? Youre kind of behaving in the exact way youre slating others for behaving. Glass houses, stones? Pots and kettles? Or maybe just chill?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> Well aren't you the lucky one.... up to now. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. An accidental mating can happen to any one who has entire dogs and unspeyed bitches, and as an experienced owner you should know that.
> 
> I didnt say anyone couldn't post, I said it isn't helpful to be so nasty in their comments.
> Please read posts properly before you comment, getting it wrong isn't helpful either


No, I'm not lucky, I'm just careful, and would rather not put my bitches at any unecessary risk. It's not rocket science!

So you didn't accuse everybody of knowing better than the OP? Strange that, because I would imagine the vast majority of members with even a simple understanding of dog breeding, would know that a random mating between a JR x Pom, with a 'long haired chi', with no knowledge of the health status of either parent, is not really advisable. The dogs may be lucky, but gambling on their health and well being is not acceptable when there is so much information out there about dog breeding.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Darth said:


> Well aren't you the* lucky* one.... up to now. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. An accidental mating can happen to any one who has entire dogs and unspeyed bitches, and as an experienced owner you should know that.
> 
> I didnt say anyone couldn't post, I said it isn't helpful to be so nasty in their comments.
> Please read posts properly before you comment, getting it wrong isn't helpful either


I doubt 'luck' enters into it.

Some people are just more responsible than others, simple as that.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Darth said:


> Well aren't you the lucky one.... up to now. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. An accidental mating can happen to any one who has entire dogs and unspeyed bitches, and as an experienced owner you should know that.
> 
> I didnt say anyone couldn't post, I said it isn't helpful to be so nasty in their comments.
> Please read posts properly before you comment, getting it wrong isn't helpful either


I've owned and fostered entered dogs for decades and not had an opps litter, OH had entire dogs and bitches in the same house for over 30 years no opps litter, know hundreds of breeders with entire dogs and bitches can count on one hand minus a few shouty fingers how many of them have had opps litters 2 in fact and guess what both were already health tested dogs! 1000's upon 1000's of people keep dogs in the same house and no opps litters and even millions more manage to walk their in season bitches without getting caught strange the entire dog near at that time was Chi and both owners were so far away as to not be able to do anything!


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I had unspayed bitches for 15 - 20 years. Never has there been the possibility of an accident. So no, I can remember the pre-routine spaying days. You kept your dog in. You didn`t take risks. 
And I am not surprised there has been a strong reaction from a `my bitch is about to whelp, what do I do` post. 
because....
1. The pregnancy didn`t start yesterday.
2. An internet forum is the worst place for free vet advice. 
3. this forum is for people who like dogs. 

The OP could have read a book. 
Or even spoken to a vet. 
And not left it till the last minute. 

So if you want to feel sorry for anyone...... feel sorry for the animal. Who doesn`t have any choices.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> *My wee dog is cared for extremely well*, she may not be KC but that makes her no less loved or valued (other than her monetary worth because she is not a 'pure breed' to us there is no amount of money that could be exchanged for the companionship of dog) Its not just cross breeds and mongrels in shelters there are plenty of pure bred dogs. So by your own reasoning you should stop breeding dogs and start rescuing, or is the importance of maintaining your lines too important? For breeders who are selling their litters I am sure you ask the right questions, and hope you pick the right owners but you can never know where all of your pups will be in 2 or 5 years times. I will.
> Yes i have only been able to educate my self using books and speaking to a vet, and mentor so i am attempting to further my knowledge by asking questions. Isn't this generally how we learn? I wonder that it troubles you so much my post that you took the time to reply with no useful input other than to lord your superior position on this subject over my self


Clearly not - otherwise she would not now be pregnant with an owner who hasn't got a clue what she's doing so putting her and her puppies at risk.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Darth said:


> *Well aren't you the lucky one.... *up to now. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. An accidental mating can happen to any one who has entire dogs and unspeyed bitches, and as an experienced owner you should know that.
> 
> I didnt say anyone couldn't post, I said it isn't helpful to be so nasty in their comments.
> Please read posts properly before you comment, getting it wrong isn't helpful either


Luck has nothing to do with it


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks Darth your reply was more like what I was expecting and fish fingers! I'll give that ago. I have been giving the dogs salmon once a week for their coats and joints an she turned her nose up at that. Then the chicken soup she took yesterday with her puppy food she wont take today. So am going to just keep trying, offering different things till we get there. She refused to come for a walk today not wanting to leave her whelping box so might be closer than i thought. 
Think i will choose from now on to just ignore those who obviously just enjoy being extremely negative. 
Thank you again to everyone offering positive advice it is very much appreciated, i was aware of the health checks available before breeding, but had not had them done as this was accidental at this time as i have previously stated, and no i did not realise people would react like this! Until today i have never come across dog owners who are so negative!!


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Fish fingers? why not go out and get her a McDonalds?

And people aren't negative - we are dog lovers who dislike irresponsible owners and irresponsible breeding, because it's always the dogs that suffer not their owners!


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> Think i will choose from now on to just ignore those who obviously just enjoy being extremely *realistic*.


I've fixed that for you.



> i was aware of the health checks available before breeding, but had not had them done as this was accidental at this time as i have previously stated


It just gets worse and worse :nonod:


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> Thank you so much susierainbow, I missed seeing your post I have tried her with scrambled egg and yogurt she was taking it till two days ago. I will look into the doggy sorbet, we have always given frozen blueberries on hot days especially with all there health benefits for the older dogs as advised by our vets never come across the sorbet though. Thank you so much i really appreciate your help.
> Book of the bitch is great and has been like a little bible to me over the past few months. My mentor had suggested we try offal and chicken and rice which is what she uses, but also suggested it didn't hurt to see what worked for others. I was aware that she may go off her food and this could be a sign in the next few days things may set into motion, we are very excited.
> As to how this happened Mo was on an extendable lead which my fault I had not noticed had been nibbled while i was bending down to clean her mess she pulled and broke free, it snapped. She is usually great off a lead and has only been on when in season as she can get a little flightly she refused to come back, and i only caught her when she was tied to wee long haired chi. *Had it been a larger dog we would have had to of gone with the injection but my vet was happy with us going ahead as he knows us so well now.*
> Thank you again for advice susierainbow


Words fail me.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> Thanks Darth your reply was more like what I was expecting and fish fingers! I'll give that ago. I have been giving the dogs salmon once a week for their coats and joints an she turned her nose up at that. Then the chicken soup she took yesterday with her puppy food she wont take today. So am going to just keep trying, offering different things till we get there. She refused to come for a walk today not wanting to leave her whelping box so might be closer than i thought.
> Think i will choose from now on to just ignore those who obviously just enjoy being extremely negative.
> Thank you again to everyone offering positive advice it is very much appreciated, *i was aware of the health checks available before breeding, but had not had them done as this was accidental at this time as i have previously stated,* and no i did not realise people would react like this! Until today *i have never come across dog owners who are so negative!!*


Gee, maybe that's because some of us are the people who will end up rescuing and rehoming young dogs whose owners get rid of them when they can't cope with the health problems - problems caused by backyard breeders like you.

Plenty of people manage to avoid 'accidental' matings. How strange you couldn't, and didn't, with a dog you admit to wanting to breed from anyway...


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> Thanks Darth your reply was more like what I was expecting and fish fingers! I'll give that ago. I have been giving the dogs salmon once a week for their coats and joints an she turned her nose up at that. Then the chicken soup she took yesterday with her puppy food she wont take today. So am going to just keep trying, offering different things till we get there. She refused to come for a walk today not wanting to leave her whelping box so might be closer than i thought.
> Think i will choose from now on to just ignore those who obviously just enjoy being extremely negative.
> Thank you again to everyone offering positive advice it is very much appreciated, i was aware of the health checks available before breeding, but had not had them done as this was accidental at this time as i have previously stated, and no i did not realise people would react like this! *Until today i have never come across dog owners who are so negative!!*


Don't expect to come on a forum, explain your dog is pregnant due to your ignorance and expect people to be fine and dandy.


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

blah blah blah....
Thanks Darth she wasn't interested in fish fingers but worth a try.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> blah blah blah....
> Thanks Darth she wasn't interested in fish fingers but worth a try.


Yep and it's that same glib attitude which explains how your girl has ended up pregnant and no health tests in place. If you were happy to have the mismate with a larger sire, there is no reason for you not have had it with a smaller sire. I truly hope - for *her *sake - that your bitch is OK throughout the birth and afterwards.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Hang on, in your first post you said you don't believe in abortion of any kind. 

Sadly, I do believe it would probably have been wise to consider carefully the options for terminating the unwanted pregnancy, especially with you pregnant yourself. 

Too late now though and no use crying over spilled milk.

Will you have the bitch spayed afterwards?

Have you looked at the info regarding homing litter-mates together that ouesi linked? 

Hopefully you'll make sure that your leads are secure and in good condition in the future.

It's also worth researching litter socialisation for breeders, so that you give any pups the best start, after a less than ideal beginning.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> blah blah blah....
> Thanks Darth she wasn't interested in fish fingers but worth a try.


That is just the attitude that makes me wonder why people have dogs, you aren't willing to listen unless its people praising the fact your dog is pregnant.

The fact you would of given her the injection if it had been a larger dog and yet as it was a smaller dog you thought 'oooh what the heck' not actually ever putting the actual bitch into consideration, just your selfish self.

I hope the bitch is okay and the puppies and if you are anything but stupid you'd have the bitch spayed to prevent this from happening again.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Elles said:


> Hang on, in your first post you said you don't believe in abortion of any kind.
> 
> Sadly, I do believe it would probably have been wise to consider carefully the options for terminating the unwanted pregnancy, especially with you pregnant yourself.
> 
> ...


It's sad that these people keep showing up. Meanwhile so many cross breeds are waiting for a forever home in shelters...


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Darth said:


> I'm absolutely disgusted at some of the comments on here....ok, so it's an open forum and everyone's entitled to their view but really....all the OP wants is some advice on feeding a pregnant bitch not these kind of comments. It's just not helpful or necessary.
> 
> So the OPs situation isn't great and there aren't any health tests but it was an accidental mating. *You all seem to think the mismate jab should have been used but how many of you have actually used it?* It isn't guaranteed to end a pregnancy ..... it's not a magic potion!
> 
> It seems to me you all just enjoy letting your venom fly at the slightest excuse, and don't say your fed up with seeing this type of post, I've heard that excuse before and quite frankly I don't believe it. You just enjoy being nasty!


Well ... Gotta hand it to you there Darth! You got me there! :thumbsup: I've never had to take Milly in for the mismate jab because I'm a _responsible _owner who puts her _dogs _first and therefore both of mine are _spayed/neutered_ because they're both from _rescue _... which may just be why some of the comments are so "venomous".

And if Milly had have been caught whilst in season (which would have been down to nothing more than my own negligence) I would have been on here in a blind panic, in between kicking myself for my own stupidity, asking for help, and, chances are, within the first post, I'd have been informed of the Alizin jab and Milly would have been booked in with the vet for the termination ... because that's what responsible owners do with an _accidental _mating.

The OP is not responsible, and apparently, she can't even claim ignorance, which means she's simply negligent...

1) OP was always going to breed her bitch once anyway, but apparently, not right now.
2) OP was [allegedly] fully aware of the mismate jab at the time of the mating. She says she would have taken her bitch for the jab if the male had have been a large breed dog. 
3) OP now claims that she knew of health [checks] tests, but didn't get them done because she wasn't going to breed her dog yet.
4) OP has a "mentor" in place who apparently suggested she come on a pet forum and ask about food for her heavily pregnant bitch.

Ignorance is no excuse, but if she knew all of this beforehand (as she claims) the only word for allowing this pregnancy to come to term is negligence. Or selfishness.



mrsadder said:


> Thanks Darth your reply was more like what I was expecting and fish fingers! I'll give that ago. I have been giving the dogs salmon once a week for their coats and joints an she turned her nose up at that. Then the chicken soup she took yesterday with her puppy food she wont take today. So am going to just keep trying, offering different things till we get there. She refused to come for a walk today not wanting to leave her whelping box so might be closer than i thought.
> Think i will choose from now on to just ignore those who obviously just enjoy being extremely negative.
> Thank you again to everyone offering positive advice it is very much appreciated, i was aware of the health checks available before breeding, but had not had them done as this was accidental at this time as i have previously stated, *and no i did not realise people would react like this! Until today i have never come across dog owners who are so negative*!!


Sweeping generalisation that, isn't it? :huh: Dog owners are people too, and as such, we have our own passions, emotions, opinions and concerns. You claim to be doing this because you value life, but you don't care about anyone but yourself - certainly not your bitch or her pups.


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> blah blah blah....
> Thanks Darth she wasn't interested in fish fingers but worth a try.


Are you just trolling? Did you only expect to hear opinions that you share? Or that people here would offer their congratulations and throw you a party?

You knew about health testing, but chose to ignore their importance and breed your bitch anyway. Accident or not, you still intended to breed her at some point, so why haven't you bothered with the tests up to now?


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I don't believe that the pups are going to your Mum OP. I think you are planning on selling them and it's because of this that you didn't want the mismate jab.

Your posts are full of contradictions, especially the one where you claim to be passionately against 'abortion' but then later on acknowledge that you would have booked the mismate jab if the sire had been bigger.....so apparently size DOES matter, at least to you.

I feel sorry for your bitch and the resulting pups. I really hope none of them suffer through your selfishness.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Truthfully, I do worry about this little bitch who isn't eating and whose owner seems not be very well informed on what happens towards the end of a pregnancy.

What I find a little incredible is the whole scenario where the bitch, in her most fertile time, is in the park, manages to snap her lead and, before her owner can do anything, happens to run straight to an entire Chihuahua, whose owner also appears to be completely helpless, mate and tie.

I'm finding that so very hard to believe. A maiden bitch and, you would have to assume, a novice dog, with the bitch being bigger than the dog?

I really do feel it's just a little insulting to the intelligence of forum members to expect such an unlikely story to be believed.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I do hope that next time I go to the park, I don't accidentally get mated by some man as I walk past him. :yikes:

I hadn't realised that casual sex in the park was so prevalent.

Never mind, if it happens, I'll just keep all the kids and let them run loose in my extensive gardens.


----------



## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

It is interesting how often these accidental matings happen under really unusual circumstances. Sometimes they even accidentally mate with a dog of the same breed! Amazing really. 
I must be doing something wrong because any time Ive had a bitch in heat to deal with, the only random dogs they seem to attract are mutts and coyotes


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The dogs may be lucky, but gambling on their health and well being is not acceptable when there is so much information out there about dog breeding.


I didn't say it was acceptable, I said the OP asked for advice on feeding a bitch who turned her nose up at her food, and there is no need to be rude to people who ask advice.

I may or may not believe the mating was an accident, it's irrelevant, either way it's too late to do anything about it.

People need educating before the bitch mates not ostracising when it's too late!


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Darth said:


> I didn't say it was acceptable, I said the OP asked for advice on feeding a bitch who turned her nose up at her food, and there is no need to be rude to people who ask advice.
> 
> I may or may not believe the mating was an accident, it's irrelevant, either way it's too late to do anything about it.
> 
> People need educating before the bitch mates not ostracising when it's too late!


But the OP was educated judging by her own posts.

She says she was aware of the relevant health tests needing to be done, but didn't have them carried out.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> I didn't say it was acceptable, I said the OP asked for advice on feeding a bitch who turned her nose up at her food, and there is no need to be rude to people who ask advice.
> 
> I may or may not believe the mating was an accident, it's irrelevant, either way it's too late to do anything about it.
> 
> People need educating before the bitch mates not ostracising when it's too late!


Yes, I can read, I did read the post by the OP, and did offer advice on feeding, and where to find information about feeding pregnant bitches, and pups, or did you miss that bit? The fact still remains, this is an open forum, the OP did know about the mis mate, and health tests, not checks, however they chose to allow this pregnancy to continue because they *value life* - if they really valued life that much, they wouldn't have allowed their girl to be mated in the first place, and would have donated any money to rescue they would spend on the whelping, and even rehome dogs from rescue rather than breed their own randomly crossed dogs.


----------



## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sweety said:


> Truthfully, I do worry about this little bitch who isn't eating and whose owner seems not be very well informed on what happens towards the end of a pregnancy.
> 
> What I find a little incredible is the whole scenario where the bitch, in her most fertile time, is in the park, manages to snap her lead and, before her owner can do anything, happens to run straight to an entire Chihuahua, whose owner also appears to be completely helpless, mate and tie.
> 
> ...


Having just spent around 15 hours over the past 5 days trying to get two (health tested) dogs of the same breed to mate, I also think the scenario is unlikely. Even when my bitch was more than happy to accept the dog, they still dithered about having many attempts before he managed to find the right angle. I guess the 'wham, bam, thank you ma'am matings do take place, but a maiden bitch is unlikely to open her legs straight off.


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Originally Posted by mrsadder
> The reason we have not got Mo spayed is because we were intending to breed her the once with the intention of my mum taking the pups. She has always wonted a wee Pomeranian but we had never been able to catch one when we have taken dogs from shelters before so when she first met Mo she fell in love, as you do. Then we began to plan. With becoming pregnant again after i was told it would never happen was a shock, so delayed our plans to breed Mo. Then of course things did not go to plan as Mo was caught.


Ummm.....does this mean that you got Mo from rescue originally ?

If so why were you EVER intending to breed from her ......honestly words fail me ! .


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> and would have donated any money to rescue they would spend on the whelping, and even rehome dogs from rescue rather than breed their own randomly crossed dogs.


Oh come on.....in your idealistic world maybe......

ROFL


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

All I can say is....that must have been one hell of a poo if she managed to chew through her lead, find a willing partner and get pregnant by the time it was bagged. 

But hey, at least she picked up..... but just think of the number of unwanted pregnancies that must have been avoided from owners that weren't so responsible


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> Oh come on.....in your idealistic world maybe......
> 
> ROFL


And there we go, the reason why it's still acceptable to randomly allow dogs to procreate, because some people think it's so far fetched to persuade them it's not a good idea, and to support rescues instead.


----------



## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

Havent read the whole thread as from the first page or so i could see it turning to chaos!

I do hope the bitch you are breeding is not from rescue, or the dog. If they are [either of them] then you really are a disgrace and should be ashamed of yourself for breeding from either of them or even thinking about it. If not you need a lesson on walking in season bitches as they shouldn't be walked anywhere near other dogs for fear of them either getting unwanted attention or driving poor males mad by the scent.

Also where was the dogs owner while mating happened? doesn't add up to me as a 'accident'

As for food advice, that's what your mentor is for why aren't you asking them and following their advice??? cant be that great if they dont know!!


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Darth said:


> Oh come on.....in your idealistic world maybe......
> 
> ROFL


Do you not think it's a little bit farcical to rescue an unwanted, homeless bitch and then use her to produce three or four more dogs?

I do.


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Do you not think it's a little bit farcical to rescue an unwanted, homeless bitch and then use her to produce three or four more dogs?
> 
> I do.


I think if that's what's happened its dreadful and there really isn't any excuse for it. 
I just don't think being rude and name calling is the right way to reply when someone comes on here asking for advice...irrelevant what advice they're looking for.


----------



## Darth (May 18, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Fish fingers? why not go out and get her a McDonalds?


If you've ever had a bitch that won't eat anything, and I mean anything, other than a McDonalds that's what you'd give her!

I've had one that would only eat fish fingers and scrambled egg and that's what she lived on for weeks.....she wouldn't touch anything else, and at the end of it all had 6 healthy and beautiful pups.


----------



## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

BessieDog said:


> Having just spent around 15 hours over the past 5 days trying to get two (health tested) dogs of the same breed to mate, I also think the scenario is unlikely. Even when my bitch was more than happy to accept the dog, they still dithered about having many attempts before he managed to find the right angle. I guess the 'wham, bam, thank you ma'am matings do take place, but a maiden bitch is unlikely to open her legs straight off.


Isnt that just the way it goes though? The health tested, well planned, well researched mating hits 20 bumps in the road, and the two dogs loose in a park end up in a tie in the blink of an eye and the bitch catches on that one tie. Call me a cynic but Im thinking those it was just one tie! It happened so fast stories are at best exaggerated.

But really, yawn... Can we talk about square dogs now?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Darth said:


> I think if that's what's happened its dreadful and there really isn't any excuse for it.
> I just don't think being rude and name calling is the right way to reply when someone comes on here asking for advice...irrelevant what advice they're looking for.


If you are referring to my comment about humans being twats, hardly name calling OP is it?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Isnt that just the way it goes though? The health tested, well planned, well researched mating hits 20 bumps in the road, and the two dogs loose in a park end up in a tie in the blink of an eye and the bitch catches on that one tie. Call me a cynic but Im thinking those it was just one tie! It happened so fast stories are at best exaggerated.
> 
> But really, yawn... Can we talk about square dogs now?


I dunno, talk about derailing a thread 

Wasn't it dodecahedron dogs in the end?


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

May I just recap for those new to this farce - sorry, thread....

The OP was innocently walking her Pom x, the girl was a rescue and was in season but was out and off lead regardless. While the owner was busy picking up what was presumably the biggest dog poop in the history of dogs, this minx of a Pom x managed to zoom off, find an intact Chi x or whatever the hell he was, do the deed, (tie), be impregnated, while the owner of the boy was apparently AWOL.

The owner of the bitch knew about the health tests that were needed yet hadn't been done even though she was planning on breeding this rescue girl, and she knew about the mismate, but decided what the hell - let's throw away years of rescuing and become a backyard breeder! Unless the sire was a big boy, in which case she feared she couldn't sell the cutesy pups and so in that instance would arrange an 'abortion' (her phrase).

Does that about sum it up....?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Isnt that just the way it goes though? The health tested, well planned, well researched mating hits 20 bumps in the road, and the two dogs loose in a park end up in a tie in the blink of an eye and the bitch catches on that one tie. Call me a cynic but Im thinking those it was just one tie! It happened so fast stories are at best exaggerated.
> 
> But really, yawn... Can we talk about square dogs now?


Square dogs are old hat now... it's all about the curly wurly ones now dontcha know.....


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> May I just recap for those new to this farce - sorry, thread....
> 
> The OP was innocently walking her Pom x, the girl was a rescue and was in season but was out and off lead regardless. While the owner was busy picking up what was presumably the biggest dog poop in the history of dogs, this minx of a Pom x managed to zoom off, find an intact Chi x or whatever the hell he was, do the deed, (tie), be impregnated, while the owner of the boy was apparently AWOL.
> 
> ...


I think you'll find she was on lead, but managed to gnaw her way through it, or snap it?


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Darth said:


> I think if that's what's happened its dreadful and there really isn't any excuse for it.
> I just don't think being rude and name calling is the right way to reply when someone comes on here asking for advice...irrelevant what advice they're looking for.


I do understand that.

However, a big worry here is that these pups are going to be part bred Jack Russell.

I have owned PRTs and JRTs for thirty five years now and I adore them, but, if two of them take a dislike to each other, they can and will fight to the death if they're not stopped.

If this bitch has four pups, I would say the chances of those pups living peaceably together into adulthood are slim.

What then? Will two or even three of them end up in rescue?

So the OP will have taken one bitch from rescue and donated three dogs back in return.

There's something very wrong there.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> May I just recap for those new to this farce - sorry, thread....
> 
> The OP was innocently walking her Pom x, the girl was a rescue and was in season but was out and off lead regardless. While the owner was busy picking up what was presumably the biggest dog poop in the history of dogs, this minx of a Pom x managed to zoom off, find an intact Chi x or whatever the hell he was, do the deed, (tie), be impregnated, while the owner of the boy was apparently AWOL.
> 
> ...


Missed that all the puppies 3 or 4 ( outstanding Vet ) are going to live the life of Riley running around on loads of land and have shed loads of money thrown at them, but if really deformed will be PTS........


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Don't worry about littermates not getting on, guys. I'm sure these pups will be sold and end up in different homes


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Isn't that just the way it goes though? The health tested, well planned, well researched mating hits 20 bumps in the road, and the two dogs loose in a park end up in a tie in the blink of an eye and the bitch catches on that one tie. Call me a cynic but I'm thinking those "it was just one tie! It happened so fast" stories are at best exaggerated.


That's what I always wonder... so a random dog comes running up to you and your male dog, they start sniffing each others bums, your dog starts mounting the other dog... how does no one ever think "wait a minute... that's how baby doggies are made! I should probably drag my 2kg chihuahua of this other dog"?? I refuse to believe that everything happens in a blink of an eye and all the _things_ slip into places from the first attempt and with the speed of light. 
I hate that irresponsible people are able to make money without any prior planning, financial investments and consequences. A GSD breeder who I've known for several years and highly respect just found out that her bitch is empty. She spent 6 months choosing the stud. She drove for 16hrs to get to another country where the dog was located. She paid a hefty stud fee for that one mating. And in the end she lost 1200 pounds. Yet other "breeders" just continue having "accidents" that they couldn't stop...and all that is free.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I can't help feeling that if Rosie were chewing through her lead, I would notice, even if I was scraping up a turd of elephant proportions, produced by a Pomeranian.

And how fortunate that this bitch just happened to meet a purebred, longcoat Chihuahua, entire and apparently alone, who was able to 'do the business' in eyewateringly record time.

Isn't it sad how 'accidents' happen?

But what the heck, look on the bright side. The OP was planning to breed from her rescue bitch anyway, so what a lot of trouble she's been saved by these two arranging their own mating.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

What a terribly sad thread.



mrsadder said:


> Some times things happen in life by accident and it really is how we deal with it that can make all the difference. *Did we have a difficult decision to make?* yes. Did we make the right choice as a family? only time will tell. But we made a decision that best sits with the way we are as a family.


I know everyone is different, as is their situation, but I personally do not see it as a difficult decision at all. If my dog was accidentally mated (I would take steps to prevent this as far as possible but, I acknowledge, accidents happen), the decision to end this unplanned and unwanted pregnancy would be easy. I would have got her booked in for 7-10 days' time for the Alizin injection, end of.



Darth said:


> You all seem to think the mismate jab should have been used but how many of you have actually used it? It isn't guaranteed to end a pregnancy ..... it's not a magic potion!


Alizin is not a magic potion, and you're right - nothing is guaranteed to end a pregnancy other than OHE. But, in answer to your question, I have used Alizin. Many, many, many, many, many times. I always warn that termination isn't 100% guaranteed.

But how many times have I seen it fail, so far?

Zero.

OP - has your bitch been scanned to gain some idea of puppy numbers, or is it just the vet's best guess? While 3 or 4 would be an expected number for the breeds involved, don't count on it - she might even up with six or seven!

If she is not eating, I would seek veterinary attention. It could be that she is being fussy, or it could be that she is just coming close to whelping. But there could be something wrong, and nobody over an internet forum can tell, so she would need to see a vet.


----------



## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Square dogs are old hat now... it's all about the curly wurly ones now dontcha know.....


Yes, yes, I see.... The fluffy wuffy, curly wurly, wee dogs with jaws of amazing speed and efficacy and turds of epic proportions. 
Preferably rescues, because that of course makes it so much better when its a rescue dog that has an oops litter


----------



## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

havent read the whole thread but i have to say

I adore my dog...but god only knows i couldnt have 6 or 8 of him at the same time... so upto eight puppies at one time is my idea of hell

and frankly very stupid

you cannot compare human life to a dog's.... please get a grip on reality...

and goodluck - you will need it......


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Yes, yes, I see.... The fluffy wuffy, curly wurly, wee dogs with jaws of amazing speed and efficacy and turds of epic proportions.
> Preferably rescues, because that of course makes it so much better when its a rescue dog that has an oops litter


But, we can't be casual about this. All the ducks must be in a row.

What we're aiming to breed is a fluffy wuffy, curly wurly little dog, that will be adorable in all ways and never have a crossed word with it's litter mates.

It must be able to produce a turd of such mind boggling size that it would put a dinosaur to shame and whilst the hapless owner is struggling on the floor to wrestle the mess into, presumably, a black bin liner, the little tyke must be able to quickly and efficiently chomp through it's own lead, run off and find the ideal mate and get itself pregnant in a matter of seconds.

Of course, this wonderful little machine must be a rescue. The more unwanted dogs the better, right?


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Sweety said:


> But, we can't be casual about this. All the ducks must be in a row.
> 
> What we're aiming to breed is a fluffy wuffy, curly wurly little dog, that will be adorable in all ways and never have a crossed word with it's litter mates.
> 
> ...


You know how some people breed pedigrees, others prefer breeding designer breeds... i think there should be a new 'class' of breeders. A rescue dog breeders!


----------



## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_ there is no need to be rude to people who ask advice. _

I agree, unless the OP has absolutely no knowledge about taking care of her poor bitch, rearing a litter or the ridiculous idea to home a whole litter in the same home, at which point the reality of an 'accidental' litter, to a chance meeting with an entire Chihuahua, which would produce very sellable small 'designer' puppies comes into question.
I for one, am not prepared to help this person easily rear a litter so that the 'accident' can be repeated, for the sake of her poor bitch, a rescue, who was trustingly put in a safe and caring home. Sorry.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If the dog was adopted from a genuine rescue she'd be spayed already wouldn't she?

I have to say though, I do know of a male border collie, a good few years back who was well behaved and well trained and left outside a shop, in the days when dogs were left outside shops and no-one thought anything of it. Many people didn't have cars, so they walked and took their dog with them and many dogs were left entire then. Whilst the entire male was fastened outside the shop, a guy walked past with his in season bitch off lead. They were tied by the time the owner had run out of the shop to intervene. Both dogs were collies and it was when collies were very popular due to one man and his dog. 

Would you have believed it? :yikes:

Not that I'm saying I'm not a little bit suspicious about a tiny dog breaking her lead when the owner was picking up a couple of pellets and finding herself the perfect match within seconds, but you never know.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Elles said:


> *If the dog was adopted from a genuine rescue she'd be spayed already wouldn't she?*
> 
> I have to say though, I do know of a male border collie, a good few years back who was well behaved and well trained and left outside a shop, in the days when dogs were left outside shops and no-one thought anything of it. Many people didn't have cars, so they walked and took their dog with them and many dogs were left entire then. Whilst the entire male was fastened outside the shop, a guy walked past with his in season bitch off lead. They were tied by the time the owner had run out of the shop to intervene. Both dogs were collies and it was when collies were very popular due to one man and his dog.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily.

Firstly we don't know the OP's idea of rescue - could be a private rehome (although, tbf, the OP never said anything about the dog being a rescue, could be that people are assuming she is by reading between the lines). Secondly, both of mine were ex-poundies, and neither of them had been done. We just got a voucher for half-price spay/neuter. Thirdly, we don't know how old the dog is now, or how old she was when she was "rescued" - could be that the dog was rehomed as a puppy.


----------



## wileys mum (Oct 27, 2013)

Elles said:


> If the dog was adopted from a genuine rescue she'd be spayed already wouldn't she?
> 
> I have to say though, I do know of a male border collie, a good few years back who was well behaved and well trained and left outside a shop, in the days when dogs were left outside shops and no-one thought anything of it. Many people didn't have cars, so they walked and took their dog with them and many dogs were left entire then. Whilst the entire male was fastened outside the shop, a guy walked past with his in season bitch off lead. They were tied by the time the owner had run out of the shop to intervene. Both dogs were collies and it was when collies were very popular due to one man and his dog.
> 
> ...


That reminds me of the farm collie on the farm where i was brought up and where my mum worked , she was an expensive trained working dog , she was in season and locked in a stable as collies were on farms , the stable door was high , but the council estate mongrel managed to get to her running loose as dogs did back then  which led to cross breeds , we ended up with one as a pet as he was no good for working


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

About 20 odd years ago, we had Yorkshire Terriers, our eldest bitch was caught in our back garden by the stable dog who had managed to escape ( slightly worrying as he's managed to get out of a Army Barracks ) my Mum caught them as he tied. Even then, even though my Mum had one litter from our Penny, she was taken to the Vets and given I assume the mis-mating jab, straight away, the stables paid for it, and we recieved a letter of apology from the stables, granted each year from then on for the years we were based there, the JRT who had escaped sent her a Valentines card. Point being if even 20 odd years back people could get the mis mate jab, there is no excuse for people in this day and age not to get it, if you KNOW your dog has been caught by a random dog why not just take it to the Vets ASAP....


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

This thread...










:mad2:


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> Hi, this is my first time on a forum, and am seeking advice really. before any one becomes judgmental, yes my wee dog was involved in an accidental mating, no i don't believe in abortion of any kind, and yes i have a home for all the expected puppies. My Mother has recently retired and over the past two years we have lost two horses, one dog, and two cats to old age, she has a lot of land and is taking the whole litter! *so all the pups will stay together and have an idyllic forever home*. Completely spoiled now my sister and i have left home!
> 
> Getting back to my query, My wee dog is a delightful Pomeranian cross jack Russell, she was covered once in her third season. We had been intending to breed her the once for the puppies for my mum but not this time as i my self am currently 36 weeks pregnant. Any way we are now on day 59 and been off her food for a few days, i have done a lot of reading up and seen that it could be an indication of imminent whelping in the next few days. I am unable to take her temperature rectally the last time i tried ( with lubrication)she cried and it sounded like she was screeching, I don't wont to put her through that again. Is there any other way i can tell? and please what people food would anyone recommend. she wont eat eggs, cheese. Only home made chicken soup and chicken but its given her diarrhea.


.....where they will no doubt 'accidentally' mate each other, unless they're neutered before they are properly mature.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Elles said:


> *If the dog was adopted from a genuine rescue she'd be spayed already wouldn't she*?
> 
> I have to say though, I do know of a male border collie, a good few years back who was well behaved and well trained and left outside a shop, in the days when dogs were left outside shops and no-one thought anything of it. Many people didn't have cars, so they walked and took their dog with them and many dogs were left entire then. Whilst the entire male was fastened outside the shop, a guy walked past with his in season bitch off lead. They were tied by the time the owner had run out of the shop to intervene. Both dogs were collies and it was when collies were very popular due to one man and his dog.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily. Ziggy was just in season when handed in to the rescue I got her from. She was obviously better being rehomed to me on the undertaking (which was followed up by the rescue) that I'd have her spayed at the right time, than stuck in a kennel for 3 months.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> .....where they will no doubt 'accidentally' mate each other, unless they're neutered before they are properly mature.


No, related dogs wouldn't do that! They're brother and sister!


----------



## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

This womans replies get worse and worse, I could say a whole lot more but judging from her replies, total disregard for her animals, I feel bashing my head against a brick wall would be far more effective, you don't play the banjo do you?

Mind you on the note of keeping litter mates, I did hear of a dodgy UK ovcharka breeder who sold an entire litter of 9 dogs to one home - I never heard what happened but do watch the news for the eventual fall out and how many mops, buckets and body bags will needed!! 
I do hope this is a troll for the poor animals sakes!


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> granted each year from then on for the years we were based there, the JRT who had escaped sent her a Valentines card.


Ha, superb!



AlexArt said:


> Mind you on the note of keeping litter mates, I did hear of a dodgy UK ovcharka breeder who sold an entire litter of 9 dogs to one home - I never heard what happened but do watch the news for the eventual fall out and how many mops, buckets and body bags will needed!!


OMG, can you imagine?! 

OP, if your dog really is about to whelp, for god's sake, don't put them all at your mum's: at one yard I was at, the owners did this and the dogs were shockingly behaved. Littermates together is not a good idea, from one who knows!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I am not a breeder, nor will I ever breed dogs; but seeing as it pops up again and again on these threads I have ordered a copy of The Book of the Bitch.  Looking forward to it arriving.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> I am not a breeder, nor will I ever breed dogs; but seeing as it pops up again and again on these threads I have ordered a copy of The Book of the Bitch.  Looking forward to it arriving.


It's actually a really interesting read about bitches, it's not all about breeding, and there's a section on dogs as well, useful book all round!


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> I am not a breeder, nor will I ever breed dogs; but seeing as it pops up again and again on these threads I have ordered a copy of The Book of the Bitch.  Looking forward to it arriving.


I was looking on Amazon for the book too. Definitely be ordering a copy in the near future. :thumbup:


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> .... seeing as it pops up again and again on these threads I have ordered a copy of The Book of the Bitch.


Not sure if this link works, but it did for me last night - I wanted to check the breed-by-breed section on whelping, as I was sure that a certain breed usually whelps early at about 58 days (they do).... it's an online copy.

The Book of the Bitch: A Complete Guide to Understanding and Caring for Bitches - J. M. Evans, Kay White - Google Books


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

mrsadder said:


> wow all i really expected was some advice on safe foods to give my wee dog at the moment. Don't know who to address first. I guess nobody actually actually wont's to offer anything helpful.
> My mother is in good health thank you, at the age of 50 i should hope so too. As a family we have been rescuing dogs, horses, occasionally cats for as long as I can remember we are responsible pet owners. So yes i do know that My wee dogs puppies will be going to my mum for a lovely forever home. I am aware that dogs are different to people and have always found the majority of dog owners to be nothing but helpful so i guess i am a little taken back this morning.
> As to my ability to cope with two children and a newborn along with a litter of pups i am very lucky and have a lot of support, my mum ( a retired midwife) will be staying with us for 6 weeks after the birth of my child and returning home at that point with the puppies, *of which the vet expects 3-4.* My sister is also on hand as she runs her own saddle making and leather works business from home if we need any more help, and of course my husband. So again i say i am not entering into this lightly
> Again any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you


Scans can be wrong, I read on here that some people were told 1 and had 11! 
A vet told me my girl was NOT pregnant, she was retaining fluid  She had 8 kittens 3weeks later...

I don't think pups can live together say she has 6 puppies?! Why would anyone want 2 or 3 littermates together anyway?

Also when she escaped and mated this dog that happened to be standing there waiting for her (what luck!) what did the owner of him do while they were tied? Did you talk to him/her? Did they ask about any puppies from the litter? Did you ask about his health history? How do you know he was a long haired chi and not a cross?

(P.s. I don't breed dogs I never will, but I do own a copy of the book of the bitch and have read it cover to cover lol!  )


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow. Just when I think I've read it all a thread like this appears :frown2:

I suppose it serves as a useful benchmark for differentiating between those that really love dogs & those who are dog owners.



Shoshannah said:


> I am not a breeder, nor will I ever breed dogs; but seeing as it pops up again and again on these threads I have ordered a copy of The Book of the Bitch.  Looking forward to it arriving.


I don't intend to ever breed, I bought a copy to help me with an assignment about breeding for college, it's a good read


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Hi, sorry I left and din't reply, things started to progress and I haven't really done anything unless it's Mo related for past few days. She went into early labor Tuesday a little after 11, then she progressed to stage 2 shortly before midnight Wednesday. She was amazing. Throughout stages 2 and 3 all she wonted was physical contact with me as long as i was touching, stroking and reassuring her she was settled. The first pup was slow to come, as expected her contractions we irregular and varying in length and strength after nearly an hr I gave her a little help and used the feathering technique, as explained by my vet on our last visit. This worked very quickly and within two minutes pup 1 was born, 150 grams. 
Mo was not shocked or phased but nibbled the membrane surrounding her off and the pup latched on to Mo's hind nipple before the placenta had delivered with pup still attached. After reading a lot, and experiencing child birth my self i understand the importance of not cutting the cord straight away so the pup could benefit from the blood still being transfused into the pup. I encouraged Mo to leave the cord and she cleaned the pup til a few moments later a strong contraction gave us the placenta. I have read mixed opinions on whether to allow her to eat it 1 or all of them, placentas that is, my mentor said only one, my vet said follow her lead. She ate the first. 40 mins later pup 2 arrived a lot larger than the first pup weighing 200 grams. Again she went to work and was happy as long as I was with her. With pup 2 delivered it was less than 5 minutes before our final girl came weighing 140 grams. All three pups feed well, i could find no deformities initially no cleft palates or hernias. She settled well with pups feeding and cleaning to help them toilet. 
The vet did a house call and checked Mo internally did a quick health check temp and so on and is happy with her recovery. He also checked the pups and gave them the all clear. We have had no weight loss all pups are gaining weight very quickly. Mo is happy for me to weigh them twice daily and we now have pup 1 at 240 grams, pup 2 at 250 grams and pup 3 at 225 grams.
In terms of food i have finally found that she will take goats milk but it must be at room temp, so warming it up as required and disregarding any left over, again water at room temp not cold from the tap, roast chicken only and junior appetite stimulation royal canin. She wont take the starter mousse. 

Big thank you to everyone who was supportive i really appreciate that.


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2014)

mrsadder said:


> Hi, sorry I left and din't reply, things started to progress and I haven't really done anything unless it's Mo related for past few days. She went into early labor Tuesday a little after 11, then she progressed to stage 2 shortly before midnight Wednesday. She was amazing. Throughout stages 2 and 3 all she wonted was physical contact with me as long as i was touching, stroking and reassuring her she was settled. The first pup was slow to come, as expected her contractions we irregular and varying in length and strength after nearly an hr I gave her a little help and used the feathering technique, as explained by my vet on our last visit. This worked very quickly and within two minutes pup 1 was born, 150 grams.
> Mo was not shocked or phased but nibbled the membrane surrounding her off and the pup latched on to Mo's hind nipple before the placenta had delivered with pup still attached. After reading a lot, and experiencing child birth my self i understand the importance of not cutting the cord straight away so the pup could benefit from the blood still being transfused into the pup. I encouraged Mo to leave the cord and she cleaned the pup til a few moments later a strong contraction gave us the placenta. I have read mixed opinions on whether to allow her to eat it 1 or all of them, placentas that is, my mentor said only one, my vet said follow her lead. She ate the first. 40 mins later pup 2 arrived a lot larger than the first pup weighing 200 grams. Again she went to work and was happy as long as I was with her. With pup 2 delivered it was less than 5 minutes before our final girl came weighing 140 grams. All three pups feed well, i could find no deformities initially no cleft palates or hernias. She settled well with pups feeding and cleaning to help them toilet.
> The vet did a house call and checked Mo internally did a quick health check temp and so on and is happy with her recovery. He also checked the pups and gave them the all clear. We have had no weight loss all pups are gaining weight very quickly. Mo is happy for me to weigh them twice daily and we now have pup 1 at 240 grams, pup 2 at 250 grams and pup 3 at 225 grams.
> In terms of food i have finally found that she will take goats milk but it must be at room temp, so warming it up as required and disregarding any left over, again water at room temp not cold from the tap, roast chicken only and junior appetite stimulation royal canin. She wont take the starter mousse.
> ...


Hi there, 
Im genuinely glad your girl had an uneventful labor and delivery and that dam and pups are doing well. I would still urge you to please reconsider homing all 3 pups to the same home, and maybe even draw up a spay/neuter contract for potential homes. I would also strongly urge you to get your bitch spayed after the pups have weaned.


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

Forgot to say, am hopeful that all pups will survive although we are trying to not get too attached, its difficult. The first pup my sister has named keira and she will be taking her all being well. My mum will be taking pups 2 and 3 a boy and a girl. I all ready have in the different foods they will be on ready to wean them my mum feeds science plan, my sister royal canin.


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2014)

mrsadder said:


> Forgot to say, am hopeful that all pups will survive although we are trying to not get too attached, its difficult. The first pup my sister has named keira and she will be taking her all being well. My mum will be taking pups 2 and 3 a boy and a girl. I all ready have in the different foods they will be on ready to wean them my mum feeds science plan, my sister royal canin.


Is your mom familiar with littermate syndrome? 
Littermate Syndrome | Paws Abilities

Will your mom have a plan in place to ensure the male and female pup dont end up mating and having another litter of pups needing homes? Smaller breeds often reach sexual maturity much faster than anticipated and all breeds can have silent heats.


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

It appears you claim money is not a problem and mum wanted a Pom? Why did you/she not buy one from a reputable breeder then? Just wondering..........


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> Hi, sorry I left and din't reply, things started to progress and I haven't really done anything unless it's Mo related for past few days. She went into early labor Tuesday a little after 11, then she progressed to stage 2 shortly before midnight Wednesday. She was amazing. Throughout stages 2 and 3 all she wonted was physical contact with me as long as i was touching, stroking and reassuring her she was settled. The first pup was slow to come, as expected her contractions we irregular and varying in length and strength after nearly an hr I gave her a little help and used the feathering technique, as explained by my vet on our last visit. This worked very quickly and within two minutes pup 1 was born, 150 grams.
> Mo was not shocked or phased but nibbled the membrane surrounding her off and the pup latched on to Mo's hind nipple before the placenta had delivered with pup still attached. After reading a lot, and experiencing child birth my self i understand the importance of not cutting the cord straight away so the pup could benefit from the blood still being transfused into the pup. I encouraged Mo to leave the cord and she cleaned the pup til a few moments later a strong contraction gave us the placenta. I have read mixed opinions on whether to allow her to eat it 1 or all of them, placentas that is, my mentor said only one, my vet said follow her lead. She ate the first. 40 mins later pup 2 arrived a lot larger than the first pup weighing 200 grams. Again she went to work and was happy as long as I was with her. With pup 2 delivered it was less than 5 minutes before our final girl came weighing 140 grams. All three pups feed well, i could find no deformities initially no cleft palates or hernias. She settled well with pups feeding and cleaning to help them toilet.
> The vet did a house call and checked Mo internally did a quick health check temp and so on and is happy with her recovery. He also checked the pups and gave them the all clear. We have had no weight loss all pups are gaining weight very quickly. Mo is happy for me to weigh them twice daily and we now have pup 1 at 240 grams, pup 2 at 250 grams and pup 3 at 225 grams.
> In terms of food i have finally found that she will take goats milk but it must be at room temp, so warming it up as required and disregarding any left over, again water at room temp not cold from the tap, roast chicken only and junior appetite stimulation royal canin. She wont take the starter mousse.
> ...


So pleased all went well !


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

mrsadder said:


> Forgot to say, am hopeful that all pups will survive although we are trying to not get too attached, its difficult. The first pup my sister has named keira and she will be taking her all being well. My mum will be taking pups 2 and 3 a boy and a girl. I all ready have in the different foods they will be on ready to wean them my mum feeds science plan, my sister royal canin.


Please, please, make sure those 2 pups are spayed/neutered! Inbred brother/sister matings doesn't bear thinking about!


----------



## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_Forgot to say, am hopeful that all pups will survive although we are trying to not get too attached, its difficult. The first pup my sister has named keira and she will be taking her all being well. My mum will be taking pups 2 and 3 a boy and a girl. I all ready have in the different foods they will be on ready to wean them my mum feeds science plan, my sister royal canin._

Still not listening to good advice and experience then? :001_rolleyes:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Royal canin is a poor quality food considering how expensive it is, a lot of grains and fillers in there, and unknown animal fats/meats.


----------



## catherine09 (May 10, 2014)

I haven't commented on this thread as I've no experience but I genuinely was intrigued at littermate syndrom.

After reading about it, I was shocked to see a rescue centre that I previously thought was reputable (it is for rabbits and guinea pigs) has put a post on Facebook saying they are rehoming two of the recent litter of rescue pups together. I guess this is a real no no?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

catherine09 said:


> I haven't commented on this thread as I've no experience but I genuinely was intrigued at littermate syndrom.
> 
> After reading about it, I was shocked to see a rescue centre that I previously thought was reputable (it is for rabbits and guinea pigs) has put a post on Facebook saying they are rehoming two of the recent litter of rescue pups together. I guess this is a real no no?


If it's an experienced home who are willing to take on the extra work of socialising and separate training, it can be done. There's even a chance that litter siblings *might* be best of buddies, yet unfortunately it's not uncommon for them to detest the sight of each other.


----------



## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If it's an experienced home who are willing to take on the extra work of socialising and separate training, it can be done. There's even a chance that litter siblings *might* be best of buddies, yet unfortunately it's not uncommon for them to detest the sight of each other.


I know a breeder who has been breeding for 30+ years, from her experience she's never had siblings that are best friends. She said at best they "Tolerate" each other but aren't particularly close, the rest have hated the sight of each other after a year


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Royal canin is a poor quality food considering how expensive it is, a lot of grains and fillers in there, and unknown animal fats/meats.


Also contains carcinogenics. Truly horrible ingredient.



ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I know a breeder who has been breeding for 30+ years, from her experience she's never had siblings that are best friends. She said at best they "Tolerate" each other but aren't particularly close, the rest have hated the sight of each other after a year


Hmm. Both my sets of littermates adored/adore each other, but the youngsters have been extremely hard work and it is a terrible idea unless you've got a whole ton of time to train totally separately. I certainly wouldn't have two of opposite sex together.


----------



## mrsadder (Jun 15, 2014)

After researching litter mate syndrome, I have discussed it with my mum and she is still adamant she would like both pups. We have decided she will take the female for a year, as she personally prefers to allow one season before spaying a dog. We will keep the male for her till then to avoid any unwonted developmental problems. It is extremely interesting the research that has been done on this subject I was completely fascinated at half2 this morning certainly kept me occupied while the insomnia took hold. So I must say although the delivery wasn't the most polite in certain cases I am very grateful for the information.
I know the subject of dog food can be a highly subjective one but in terms of the royal canin I am just feeding my 
dog what she wont's. If it is sub standard food, it can be in your opinion but in hers it is all she wont's. My mum swears by it an she has had no serious health issues in the past. 
The pomeranian thing, about my mum being able to afford to buy one. Yes she could, it has always just been more of a priority to rescue. she has a close friend who fosters dogs an that's who we have always taken dogs from in the past. I think my wee Mo is one of those dogs too, that everyone loves. She is quirky, obedient, extremely loyal and affectionate. I can't walk the dogs without being stopped to ask about her. When our dog walking friends found out she was pregnant they were offering silly money for a pup. She is family though, so we really felt her pups should remain with us. With regards to getting Mo spayed, before her giving birth we were going to play it by ear. See how she coped with labour and parenthood, then maybe get her health health checks done and go again. however after seeing her in so much pain, I really couldn't put her through that again. I am defiantly not objective enough to distance my self from seeing an animal I love so much suffer like that. As much as the outcome was overwhelming, she has done it now.


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

mrsadder said:


> After researching litter mate syndrome, I have discussed it with my mum and she is still adamant she would like both pups. We have decided she will take the female for a year, as she personally prefers to allow one season before spaying a dog. We will keep the male for her till then to avoid any unwonted developmental problems. It is extremely interesting the research that has been done on this subject I was completely fascinated at half2 this morning certainly kept me occupied while the insomnia took hold. So I must say although the delivery wasn't the most polite in certain cases I am very grateful for the information.
> I know the subject of dog food can be a highly subjective one but in terms of the royal canin I am just feeding my
> dog what she wont's. If it is sub standard food, it can be in your opinion but in hers it is all she wont's. My mum swears by it an she has had no serious health issues in the past.
> * The pomeranian thing, about my mum being able to afford to buy one. Yes she could, it has always just been more of a priority to rescue. she has a close friend who fosters dogs an that's who we have always taken dogs from in the past. I think my wee Mo is one of those dogs too, that everyone loves. She is quirky, obedient, extremely loyal and affectionate. I can't walk the dogs without being stopped to ask about her. When our dog walking friends found out she was pregnant they were offering silly money for a pup.* She is family though, so we really felt her pups should remain with us. With regards to getting Mo spayed, before her giving birth we were going to play it by ear. See how she coped with labour and parenthood, then maybe get her health health checks done and go again. however after seeing her in so much pain, I really couldn't put her through that again. I am defiantly not objective enough to distance my self from seeing an animal I love so much suffer like that. As much as the outcome was overwhelming, she has done it now.


you contradict yourself soo much in your posts i'm just never sure if you are being serious or not! 
so rescuing is a priority to your mum, so she would rather take pups that you've bred with very little knowledge or forethought rather than rescuing a pom or pom mix- and they aren't hard to find if you are actually actively looking for one.
i am also finding it hard to believe you are keeping a pup for a full year before giving it to her- obviously you bond with dogs differently than i do, but i couldn't do it. i couldn't just hand him over after the year.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Why do people do this? The whole blind 'it's just your opinion' thing about food? Royal Canin contains cancer causing ingredients, BHT, BHA. Google the studies. It's not my opinion, it's FACT.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Sorry but this all begins to seem like a big BS. 
So is your mother now 'rescuing' the puppies from you? You said previously that your mum wanted one of your bitches puppies in the future. How is that rescuing?? As others said you contradict yourself so much it gets annoying.
So you will continue to feed your dog the food that contains dangerous stuff in it because SHE wants it and therefore the dog knows better than people who have been reading about it for years?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> Why do people do this? The whole blind 'it's just your opinion' thing about food? Royal Canin contains cancer causing ingredients, BHT, BHA. Google the studies. It's not my opinion, it's FACT.


It is also recommended by vets, fed virtually exclusively by Guide Dogs and no doubt fed by very many other knowledgeable people.
I really do not think you can denigrate a dog owner for feeding something that has such recommendations.


----------



## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> It is also recommended by vets, fed virtually exclusively by Guide Dogs and no doubt fed by very many other knowledgeable people.
> I really do not think you can denigrate a dog owner for feeding something that has such recommendations.


It is also very popular in the show world. Many breeders feed it and recommend it.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> Why do people do this? The whole blind 'it's just your opinion' thing about food? Royal Canin contains cancer causing ingredients, *BHT, BHA*. Google the studies. It's not my opinion, it's FACT.


I did. May I suggest you do the same again? 

Whilst there's nothing actively disputing your claims, there's also nothing actively saying they definitely DO cause cancer. In some cases, they may both actually protect against some forms. Plus, they both have anti-microbial and anti-viral agents:

Chemistry of BHA and BHT Food Preservatives

About.com: http://www.cspinet.org/reports/chemcuisine.htm

Notice use of the word MAY in each of these cases - not WILL, DEFINITELY, or DOES (yes, I am aware that BHA is listed under AVOID).

Also notice that even though they say they MAY cause cancer - this is in relation to humans after tests were carried out on mice, rats and hamsters. BHA in particular has been noticed to perhaps cause cancer in the fore-stomach of these rodents. Humans don't have a fore-stomach.

Notice also that both BHA and BHT are thought to have some health benefits. Particularly for use as anti-viral/anti-microbial agents. BHT actually now being used to treat herpes, AIDS and cold sores:
BHT (BUTYLATED HYDROXYTOLUENE: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings - WebMD)


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

mrsadder said:


> After researching litter mate syndrome, I have discussed it with my mum and she is still adamant she would like both pups. *We have decided she will take the female for a year, as she personally prefers to allow one season before spaying a dog. *We will keep the male for her till then to avoid any unwonted developmental problems. It is extremely interesting the research that has been done on this subject I was completely fascinated at half2 this morning certainly kept me occupied while the insomnia took hold. So I must say although the delivery wasn't the most polite in certain cases I am very grateful for the information.
> I know the subject of dog food can be a highly subjective one but in terms of the royal canin I am just feeding my
> dog what she wont's. If it is sub standard food, it can be in your opinion but in hers it is all she wont's. My mum swears by it an she has had no serious health issues in the past.
> The pomeranian thing, about my mum being able to afford to buy one. Yes she could, it has always just been more of a priority to rescue. she has a close friend who fosters dogs an that's who we have always taken dogs from in the past. I think my wee Mo is one of those dogs too, that everyone loves. She is quirky, obedient, extremely loyal and affectionate. I can't walk the dogs without being stopped to ask about her. When our dog walking friends found out she was pregnant they were offering silly money for a pup. She is family though, so we really felt her pups should remain with us. With regards to getting Mo spayed, before her giving birth we were going to play it by ear. *See how she coped with labour and parenthood, then maybe get her health health checks done and go again. *however after seeing her in so much pain, I really couldn't put her through that again. I am defiantly not objective enough to distance my self from seeing an animal I love so much suffer like that. As much as the outcome was overwhelming, she has done it now.


mmmmm I've not read the entire thread but 1st couple of pages & last couple

I've highlighted a couple of bits above ..... I sincerely hope that steps will be put in place to ensure there's not another 'accidental' mating for this pup

As for the 2nd - it was an accidential mating and you're supposedly into rescuing animals - and you thought of breeding from her again 

As someone said earlier - your posts are full of contradictions ....


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> It is also recommended by vets, fed virtually exclusively by Guide Dogs and no doubt fed by very many other knowledgeable people.
> I really do not think you can denigrate a dog owner for feeding something that has such recommendations.


Think I can, because I am entitled to an opinion. It used to be that everyone fed Pedigree chum and winalot: many people wouldn't touch the stuff now because of the poor quality. I believe RC to be full of fillers also which appear unnecessary. It is very expensive given it's meat content.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I know a breeder who has been breeding for 30+ years, from her experience she's never had siblings that are best friends. She said at best they "Tolerate" each other but aren't particularly close, the rest have hated the sight of each other after a year


And yet in "The Book of The Bitch" , the bible you all seem to live by
the author [on page 16] says 


> *SHOULD YOU BUY TWO BITCHES?*
> this can be a pleasant idea, as sisters are usually good friends all their lives and they are company for each other


All I can say is if [god forbid] I *EVER *needed help and advice on whelping or best anything for a pregnant bitch - as I foster its highly likely sooner or later I will get one- I would *NEVER *come here

However a mating happens, whatever the thoughts about mismate jabs, when an owner has made a decision its *THEIR *decision, whatever our misgivings
Maybe advising, helping and supporting for a happy conclusion, rather than slating the owner, should be the way to go in instances such as these
after all
whats done cant be undone
and
education is the key, not degredation, if everyones shouting, no ones learning


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knackered, but upon enquiring to royal canin recently, they did admit that they do use BHT as an anti-oxidant in their foods as a preservative. BHT is simply put, a known carcinogen, as is BHA.


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> All I can say is if [god forbid] I *EVER *needed help and advice on whelping or best anything for a pregnant bitch - as I foster its highly likely sooner or later I will get one- I would *NEVER *come here


Where would you go then? Genuine q, as all the dog forums - apart from those frequented by BYBs churning dogs out for cash, would have a similar viewpoint - and of course rescue forums such as DP would have no advice at all..... :mellow:


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Knackered, but upon enquiring to royal canin recently, they did admit that they do use BHT as an anti-oxidant in their foods as a preservative. BHT is simply put, a known carcinogen, as is BHA.


The studies carried out on mice and rats showed tumour development and whilst it's an antioxidant, the risk is too high with multiple studies showing tumour growth.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> Where would you go then? Genuine q, as all the dog forums - apart from those frequented by BYBs churning dogs out for cash, would have a similar viewpoint - and of course rescue forums such as DP would have no advice at all..... :mellow:


First port of call would be a trusted knowledgeable breeder, yes even before rescue, I would want someone who knows exactly whats what 'holding my hand', some rescues and/or pounds have never had experiencewith a whelping
someone who has been there, done that and worn the T-shirt several times, I already have several as points of contact through fostering thank goodness
then
my vet would be on the end of a phone line [or one of the others in the practice] as they do there own out of hours, one of the most important reasons I went with them way back in the day
and
my best friend who is also a fosterer, we both started out in the rat world [now theres a judgmental bunch, god help anyone who wants to start breeding in that world] and have progressed onto bigger and bigger animals :biggrin:

Im afraid the last thing Id want to do, is be asking a bunch of strangers, any of whom, with all due respect, could be anybody, masquerading as anyone

Id never consort with anyone who bred for their pocket rather than the good of the breed

As for DP, well theyre the very reason I found you lot and now you're all stuck with me

hope that answers your question


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> First port of call would be a trusted knowledgeable breeder, yes even before rescue, I would want someone who knows exactly whats what 'holding my hand', some rescues and/or pounds have never had experiencewith a whelping
> someone who has been there, done that and worn the T-shirt several times, I already have several as points of contact through fostering thank goodness
> then
> my vet would be on the end of a phone line [or one of the others in the practice] as they do there own out of hours, one of the most important reasons I went with them way back in the day
> ...


In a way I agree with you as I would never ask for breeding advice on a forum. My first person to contact would be my breeder, then the FB group of mentors for my breed which has many well known breeders and then my vet. However, we're making these points because we actually thought through all of this and genuinely care about the breed.
However, if you take time to look through all of the threads starting with "My bitch is pregnant, WHAT DO i DO?" "Yay, my bitch is pregnant" and all the stories regarding accidental matings on the breeding section unfortunately have nothing to do with a genuine love for the breed. I am not trying to hurt anyone so I apologise to all the ladies who have all those lovely crosses and rescues, but from my experience of forums, most of the people who are looking for breeding advice are those who went and bought a popular crossbreed or a dog that was supposed to be a lab, gsd or another breed. Why? Because people who they bought the dogs from took the money and disappeared. Because these people (most of the time) aren't involved in any breed clubs or have any real knowledge about the breed that they have bought. So when they decide to breed, not only their reasons for breeding are such as "my girl has a lovely character" and "my vet/ neighbour/ people on the street said she is pretty and they would love to have a dog like that" but what is the worst is that there is no one around them who has experience with dogs and would stop them and explain that they are wrong. So they go, do it and then google "pregnant bitch" which leads them to forums.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> Think I can, because I am entitled to an opinion. It used to be that everyone fed Pedigree chum and winalot: many people wouldn't touch the stuff now because of the poor quality. I believe RC to be full of fillers also which appear unnecessary. It is very expensive given it's meat content.


Of course you are entitled to an opinion and you choose what to feed your dogs as do I (and I do not feel royal canin as I do not want to). But you were definitely making out that anyone that feeds royal canin is a bad owner who knows nothing. As it is recommended by so many very experienced people who are also entitled to their opinions I do not think it is right to do more than put the reasons you have decided not to feed it, not make out that anyone that does feed it is a bad owner and should stop feeding what suits their own dog.

I do not think Bakers should get the bashing it gets either. There are probably more pet dogs fed on Bakers than anything else. I tried it once and ended up with a fat dog very quickly so I would never feed it but I would also never suggest that someone with a healthy dog of the correct weight should change to another food.

I am actually quite surprised that some of the food companies have not spotted what goes on on forums and do something about it. If I found a product I produced and sold was being denigrated in this way I would be thinking seriously about legal recourse.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Of course you are entitled to an opinion and you choose what to feed your dogs as do I (and I do not feel royal canin as I do not want to). But you were definitely making out that anyone that feeds royal canin is a bad owner who knows nothing. As it is recommended by so many very experienced people who are also entitled to their opinions I do not think it is right to do more than put the reasons you have decided not to feed it, not make out that anyone that does feed it is a bad owner and should stop feeding what suits their own dog.
> 
> I do not think Bakers should get the bashing it gets either. There are probably more pet dogs fed on Bakers than anything else. I tried it once and ended up with a fat dog very quickly so I would never feed it but I would also never suggest that someone with a healthy dog of the correct weight should change to another food.
> 
> I am actually quite surprised that some of the food companies have not spotted what goes on on forums and do something about it. If I found a product I produced and sold was being denigrated in this way I would be thinking seriously about legal recourse.


Well that made me laugh! What are Royal Canin going to do about it? They have BHT in their food and it's a known carcinogen, simple. The same as Bakers dog foods contain loads of additives, and propylene glycol, which, btw is banned for use in cat food because it can cause serious health problems.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well that made me laugh! What are Royal Canin going to do about it? They have BHT in their food and it's a known carcinogen, simple. The same as Bakers dog foods contain loads of additives, and propylene glycol, which, btw is banned for use in cat food because it can cause serious health problems.


SL I really respect your views, and those of CT, but all this "don't feed this or that food because it contains known carcinogens" is becoming rather tedious. Anyone who says something as potentially inflaming as that should be prepared to back up their claims in court, and therefore, have _concrete _evidence. Forums have, in the past, been sued for libel because the opinions of their members have negatively affected businesses. That's a fact, too:

Popular Community ScubaBoard Sued for Libel and How to Limit Libel Claims on Your Forums | ManagingCommunities.com: Community Manager Blog

Jury Awards $13 Million in Texas Defamation Suit Against 'Anonymous' Posters - ABC News

FWIW, here's Royal Canin's response to why they use BHA:
Antioxidants BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin or 'natural' Tocopherols in dog and cat food


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Think I can, because I am entitled to an opinion. It used to be that everyone fed Pedigree chum and winalot: many people wouldn't touch the stuff now because of the poor quality. I believe RC to be full of fillers also which appear unnecessary. It is very expensive given it's meat content.


My puppy came to me on RC...am gradually swapping him over to Simpsons now. But I nearly fell through the floor at the price of RC for a 3kg bag from Pets @ Home - £21!  People must be eaten out of house and home with those kind of eye watering prices.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Of course you are entitled to an opinion and you choose what to feed your dogs as do I (and I do not feel royal canin as I do not want to). But you were definitely making out that anyone that feeds royal canin is a bad owner who knows nothing. As it is recommended by so many very experienced people who are also entitled to their opinions I do not think it is right to do more than put the reasons you have decided not to feed it, not make out that anyone that does feed it is a bad owner
> 
> I do not think Bakers should get the bashing it gets either. There are probably more pet dogs fed on Bakers than anything else. I tried it once and ended up with a fat dog very quickly so I would never feed it but I would also never suggest that someone with a healthy dog of the correct weight should change to another food. Having had a dog die of cancer and the specialist tell me it was probably nutrition related, I prefer not to take the risk and sadly, most people don't check the exact formulation of dog food.
> 
> I am actually quite surprised that some of the food companies have not spotted what goes on on forums and do something about it. If I found a product I produced and sold was being denigrated in this way I would be thinking seriously about legal recourse.


Didn't say people were bad owners and as the companies have said they use these ingredients and they have been shown to cause cancer in _some_ studies, they do not have legal recourse, which is why they still use them.

Very interesting documentation, LinznMilly, thanks. What isn't mentioned is of it's a cumulative effect over time which would lead us to think it was extremely dangerous and under the RC bit, the are several paragraphs mentioning 'carcinogenic' so I think it's justified to warn others of the contents of the very expensive, low meat food.

Anyway, this is going way off topic. Let's get back to bashing the OP, shall we?


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> Didn't say people were bad owners and as the companies have said they use these ingredients and they have been shown to cause cancer in _some_ studies, they do not have legal recourse, which is why they still use them.
> 
> Very interesting documentation, LinznMilly, thanks. *What isn't mentioned is of it's a cumulative effect over time which would lead us to think it was extremely dangerous* and under the RC bit, the are several paragraphs mentioning 'carcinogenic' so I think it's justified to warn others of the contents of the very expensive, low meat food.
> 
> Anyway, this is going way off topic. Let's get back to bashing the OP, shall we?


OK, but* where's the proof*?!

You started this! You advised us to Google BHT and BHA, and because that's exactly what I did - and posted the results - you're brushing me off because it doesn't confirm what you've suggested it would, also suggesting that perhaps you need to conduct your own research.

Yes, the word carcinogen gets a mention in several paragraphs - that alone doesn't exactly prove your point, does it? Carcinogen has got a lot of mention in this thread - does that mean this thread causes cancer? Of course not.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

"It was also concluded that BHT is not a genotoxic carcinogen, but that it cannot be excluded that high and chronic doses of BHT may result in persistent cell proliferation, which is known as a possible mechanism of non-genotoxic carcinogens. "

Granted, the dosages are going to be incredibly high to have that sort of effect on your dog, but given that they promote their food as supposedly high quality, and charge a bl**dy fortune for it, why on earth use this as a preservative?

Forgot the links!

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/2588.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1569214/pdf/envhper00456-0262.pdf


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> "It was also concluded that BHT is not a genotoxic carcinogen, but that it cannot be excluded that high and chronic doses of BHT may result in persistent cell proliferation, which is known as a possible mechanism of non-genotoxic carcinogens. "
> 
> Granted, the dosages are going to be incredibly high to have that sort of effect on your dog, but given that they promote their food as supposedly high quality, and charge a bl**dy fortune for it, why on earth use this as a preservative?
> 
> ...


_THANK YOU_! That's all I was asking for.

Busy reading now.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

There are plenty of peer reviewed studies available to prove or disprove my opinion. Why are we still talking about this? If you want to carry on the conversation, start a new thread. I was trying to help the OP mentioning that it's not the best food (in my ruddy opinion!! ) not trying to 'brush you off'.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Burnt toast is also carcinogenic. 

I am not a fan of RC and do not recommend it. But if someone is feeding it and is happy with it, I tend to leave them to it. I do tell them that, IMO, there are much better foods out there; if they are receptive we'll discuss it but if they prefer to stick with it then it's their choice.

My sister feeds her cat on Iams. I don't like it, but it's her choice. I feed mine a variety of grain-free wet foods and raw. My mum feeds hers Asda's own cheapo stuff.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> There are plenty of peer reviewed studies available to prove or disprove my opinion. Why are we still talking about this? If you want to carry on the conversation, start a new thread. I was trying to help the OP mentioning that it's not the best food (in my ruddy opinion!! ) not trying to 'brush you off'.


I think you're confusing me with someone else. I never said anything about the unsuitability of RC for feeding dogs as _your opinion_ so calm down. All I did, is ask for proof, evidence, something that would stand up in court which backs up your claims, should RC come across this thread and decide to sue you/the forum for libel and all I got is "there's plenty of studies by various peers" or "Google BHT and BHA". And when I pressed the issue, you (who started this debate about food in the first place) tried to change the subject, which could lead a reader to suggest that you're relying on others to come up with the evidence.

Frankly, SL bailed you out. SL provided me with the links - the evidence I wanted. I don't feed RC to my dogs, and the food I do give them don't contain the additives under discussion.

So, OK, let's get back to helping the OP. The links provided by myself and SL should leave her with enough information about BHT and BHA to make an informed decision as to whether to continue feeding RC to her bitch and puppies. What her own mum decides to feed the puppy/ies as and when they go to her (assuming that she/they do go to Mum) is, frankly, none of our business. Should OP's Mum decide to read this thread, she's equally got the information at her disposal to make an informed choice about continuing (or not) to feed RC.


----------

