# Cocker or Bichon?



## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Hi,

Please could you help me decide whether a cocker spaniel or bichon frise is best for my young family. I work part-time and my children a very mild-mannered and jsut school age. 

I was brought up with a cocker who was lovely but i'm a little put off by the 'rage syndrome' debate. We like the red cockers (my childhood bitch was black and white) but, as a parent, should we take the risk of rage syndrome which is associated with reds? 

I've read Bichon Frise are good for families and the ones i've met out and about are very mild mannered and friendly but i've also heard horrow stories about house training taking forever and still not really ever working.

Are either of these stories worth worrying about? 

I The dog would be left for 7 hours on two days but we could get someone to pop in mid way if needs must.

I'm really hoping someone can help.

Many thanks.:001_smile:


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't know anything about Cockers but I do have a Bichon.

Bichons do have a reputation for being difficult to house train but I think they can all differ. Poppy was actually very easy to house train. The day we brought her home she adopted the cat's litter tray (the cat never used it, it was down if she needed to go if ever we were out) and we just gradually moved it nearer the door, but also took her outside regularly. 

Poppy's litter sister lives with my son and family and they live in a house with no garden. They used puppy pads which their Bichon uses to this day. She will just not go to the toilet outside, she always goes inside but she does do it on the pad, nowhere else.

If considering a Bichon I would give very serious thought to leaving it for 7 hours, even though you say only two days a week. Bichons are people dogs and they love company. Many get stressed and suffer anxiety if left. We have gradually built up the time we leave Poppy and the maximum we've left her is one hour (we are retired). Someone "popping in if needs must" could even be stressful for a dog who suffers from separation anxiety as it would be left for a second time that day. It might be better if you knew someone who would be willing to let the dog stay with them in their home on the days you are out - I have friends who have a Bichon and they do this when they have to go out for a number of hours.

Also take into account the amount of grooming they need. Ideally they should be brushed every day to prevent their coats getting matted, and this needs to be started straight away to get them used to it. Depending on the length of it's coat it can take up to 30 minutes. We keep Poppy's coat quite short, she hasn't yet got the curly adult coat so we're having her groomed every 5 or 6 weeks. If you don't intend grooming yourself bear in mind the cost of a groomer, we pay £25 for bath/clip/nails and ear plucking and I think you could pay more depending where you live.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Noone can choose for you, and you have to judge the sources by personal research. But ...



lookingforapup said:


> i'm a little put off by the 'rage syndrome' debate. We like the red cockers (my childhood bitch was black and white) but, as a parent, should we take the risk of rage syndrome which is associated with reds?


The most plausible theory for "rage" was that it's actually resource guarding issue, which Spaniels apparently are prone to (I know someone who lost theirs through it biting husband and not getting good advice). Whilst I have seen Spaniels lash out with little warning to dogs, it appears due to anxiousness (helped by good socialisation) and guarding in proximity to owner issues.

All breeds seem to have pro/cons. If you have a Spaniel or BF, you'ld work on food guarding prevention by adding nice things to food bowl from puppy hood, and making sure she learns drop & leave, early on, using "exchange higher value" object and return toy, so dog happy to give up objects. Puppy proof thoroughly etc. Any dog breed may RG, so this work around the food bowl and *not removing food or taking it*, means your dog grows up without feeling under threat of losing it's food.

The Dog Breed Info site, is whilst unfortunately tainted by Cesar Milan's ideas, it does seem to have convenient comparisons on breeds.

Bichon Frise Information and Pictures, Bichon Frises, Bichons
English Cocker Spaniel Information and Pictures

[ If anyone knows of similar characteristic collection and selection help, without the PL & Milangelism please pass me the URL ]


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Thank you both so much for taking the time to post such good advice.

I had a German Shepherd before my children were born so i feel pretty O.K. with training, but he was a pup a very long time ago so your comments (RobD-BCactive) were really good reminders, thanks! Also, i feel quite different about choosing a dog now i've got children. My parent's German shepherd was still alive when my eldest was born and she was just wonderful with her but i want a small dog that my children can help to train and eventually take on walks when they're older.

Many thanks for your very honest reply DirtyGertie. I had a garden with my Shepherd and we actually had an enormous dog flap (which i could crawl through!) and i spent many hours outside in the cold saying my poo/wee command word! *Would a Brichon be better with a dog flap? Or would it just bark for the duration it was alone for? *I would seriously consider leaving a Bichon with a family member (i'd have to fight them off!) but this would be a problem if the dog was having accidents all over their house (they wouldn't mind when she was a pup but would after 6 months or so).

Bichon's do seem a little calmer than cockers, the cocker i was brought up with was wonderful but was bonkers for at least the first 4 years of her life. That said, i've met two people who work full-time and leave their dogs and they're supposedly happy, so maybe a cocker's the better option? We've been to a couple of local (Waggiest Tail-type) dog shows and seen cockers and bichons and the housetraining problem had been and still is a problem for one owner, but maybe the dog flap would help?

Many thanks again for your super, well-informed responses. :001_smile:

Does anyone own either of these breeds and work part-time?


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## claire & the gang (Nov 18, 2010)

I have cockers, although i have the working type rather than show,...they are also very people orientated dogs & i therefore don`t leave them alone for more than a couple of hours or they would be stressed & bored. 
I orgininally got the working type due to their being no ~rage syndrome~ in their lines & having a young child. 

7 hours is a long time to leave any dog alone IMO even if just two days a week. I`d echo what the OP said about having someone who the dog is comfortable with who can doggi sit on those days.

Good luck with whatever breed you choose:001_smile:


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

lookingforapup said:


> *Would a Brichon be better with a dog flap? Or would it just bark for the duration it was alone for? *I would seriously consider leaving a Bichon with a family member (i'd have to fight them off!) but this would be a problem if the dog was having accidents all over their house (they wouldn't mind when she was a pup but would after 6 months or so).


We did at one time consider a dog flap but decided against it. Do you mean for going to the toilet or for leaving your dog on it's own? Once we got to the stage where Poppy was asking to go outside we got some *Poochie Bells* so she could ring them to ask to go out. It took about a month for her to learn but I'm sure some dogs would learn quicker than that. If you mean for when you might leave the dog is on it's own then it's not something I would do for reasons of safety and security. Both our side yard and back garden could be easily accessed by anyone.

I have to say I think we've been very lucky with Poppy in some respects but I can only compare her to her litter sister. Poppy is not a barker, in fact she really only discovered her bark when about 8 months old. Her sister sits on the back of a chair in their window and barks when anyone goes past. Poppy can sit outside in our yard at the side of the house (which overlooks a pedestrian lane) and she will just watch people walk by, never ever barks at them. The only time she does bark is when a stranger comes into the house and she's picking up the "3 barks and Thank You" routine quite well. Apart from that the only other barking is when we're on the beach and she's impatient for you to throw her ball.

We've asked our neighbour whether Poppy has barked during the times we have left her and the answer was no, never. Some dogs are barkers, some not.



> Does anyone own either of these breeds and work part-time?


There are a couple of other Bichon owners on here that I know are a lot younger than me who probably do work, perhaps they've not been on the forum yet this weekend and not seen your post. Hopefully they'll be along soon.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

My family are on our second bichon and I can highly recommend them. Both have been great with people of all ages, including babies / toddlers / schoolkids / teens and the elderly / infirm. They have also been fantastic with other dogs and other animals.

Generally they will take as much excercise as you care to give. Current boy Solo requires a fair amount - about an hour a day, but Tilly was much more laid back and could settle for less.

I've found they are fairly easy to train (especially using clicker training). Solo is very quick to pick up new things, and really seems to enjoy training. They do have a reputation for having a short attention span though so keep things short, sweet and varied.

The only real issue with bichons IMO is the amount of grooming involved. Solo has an unusually dense coat even for a bichon, and needs about 1/2 - 1 hours brushing every day, as well as clipping every 4 weeks and usually a bath in between.

As for housetraining - personally I think its bull. I think the rumour is probably caused at least in part by all the people who worry about putting a tiny pup outside in the rain!
Solo was relatively slow to housetrain, but was still clean by 6 months so still "normal". Tilly was totally clean within 2 weeks of getting her - including when left or overnight.

As for being left 7 hours twice a week. Personally, I dont think this will be a problem if you are sensible and take precautions. 

When you first get the pup I would suggest finding a way round it - ie taking time off or having someone round to stay with the pup (not just pop in) - for the first few weeks at least. 
This gives you those vital early weeks to worry about housetraining, basic manners, extensive socialisation etc. 
It also gives you time to get the dog used to being left gradually - building from the very basics (being in another room, being left overnight) through being left home alone for a few minutes, then an hour etc until the dog is fine with it.

When you do get up to the full 7 hours I would NOT leave the dog in a crate - its cruel for such a long time. Somewhere safe like the kitchen should be fine. Leave some decent toys like stuffed kongs to prevent boredom.

Do remember though that pups do not have full bladder control and will probably not be able to hold it for that long - so if you leave them too long too soon you WILL have accidents.

I like the idea of dog flaps in principle, but personally I wouldn't take the risk - too easy for your dog to get stolen from the garden!

Solo is only left for a max of 3-4 hours, about 4 times a week with no problem. Tily was left far longer - we brought her home at the start of the summer holidays (I was at school at the time) so I had about 8 weeks to socialise, housetrain and get her used to being left. When I went back to school in September she was left for about 8 hours a day, five days a week. Certainly not ideal but it worked for us, and she never had a problem with it - never messed, never barked, was never destructive.

As I say, leaving a dog long hours is not ideal, and we were very lucky that it worked out for us, but I wouldn't rule out getting a dog just because you are out two days a week.

Hope that helps!


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

Have you considered a Westie? Fab little dogs who don't shed like Bichons and are happy to be left for a good few hours (but not 7 - I wouldn't do that to any dog). They LOVE children and don't require quite as much grooming as a Bichon.

Cockers can be very high energy and very stubborn - they need lots of mental and physical stimulation.


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for your responses. 

I do really like Westies but i'd read that Bichons are better with children...?

I'm feeling that Bichons may be right for us. I'm a teacher so, if we timed it right, we would have the summer holiday to really get to grips with toilet training (I trained my German Shepherd in the middle of winter - not fun!). I think perhaps we'd use a flap while we were in. Yes, I had thought about it for when we were out as we live in a really safe area with great neighbours and a very secure garden, but I guess you never know.... We've got a large kitchen so we'd probably leave her there when we were out. My mother lives round the corner and is my before and after childcare when I'm at work. I'm sure she'd be willing to visit when I returned to work for the first few weeks.

The Bichons I've met (only 3) have been just so sweet - fun but not too scatty. Colette, maybe you're right and it's just thorough training at a young age they need to be house trained. 

The grooming is not a problem, My Shepherd was long coated and I really enjoyed the grooming aspect - nice to spend one on one time together - he loved it! 

Thanks so much for your advice - you're all so helpful and honest.:thumbup:


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## bobby the bichon doggy (Apr 27, 2011)

I have never had a dog before in fact a guinea pig is the only pets we have had but after many a year of my wife and daughter doggedly pleading i gave in. 
We have a Bichon dog, got him at 8 weeks and now just over ten weeks. If i said it has been easy i'd be lying!!! However if you read my other post on nightime sleeping their is comfort. Last night he slept from 9.30pm till 7.30am when i woke him, no toiletting overnight or one single bark. 
He has some very demanding times when he nips, growls and runs furiousely but again he is only a puppy (baby) so what more can you expect? 
As for leaving him alone, today we went out for 2 1/2 hours this morning and he was fine no barking no toiletting, then we went this afternoon for an hour and half again the same no problem. So i would certainly disagree with the the other persons comment about not being able to leave for more than hour. Though i have had issues with leaving him in his pen while i am in the house but hopefully this is now sorted too.  
Taking time off is a must though, we got Bobby in half term and i've taken time off to help and i think this is a must.
I think it is just a question of sticking at it and NOT giving in, he is a dog after all and will learn eventualy!!
He is really cute and has been great around other people, old and young. My 12 year old daughter is too soft on him and she pays for this as he is currently nipping her all the time, again this will i'm sure pass. Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

well im bias im afraid, being a owner of a ten year old male blue roan neutered cocker called murphy.Id go for a cocker every time. I was a registered child minder whilst i had him as a pup. He has been a amazing dog with the children . Very gentle although never left unattended. He has a clown like nature but is also a bit of a pickle for reciepts wrappers ,raiding bins for tissues. He loves company and goes camping with us also. But i would say they need lots of exercise or they can become distructive. Mine gets left 5 hrs a day . When he was a bit smaller he did bark a bit and guards the house. Although once in the door hes more likely to lick you to death. All i can say hes bright and they are easy to train if done correctly. He was dry and clean in 12 weeks nighttime and 9 weeks daytime. The only prob we had was he was a bit over excited with the play biting. If he got to much id remove him from the situation and tell him no. Till he camled. Hes good with other pets ive had. And was fine with other dogs until he was attacked and now he preferes girlies. He has to go to the groomer every 3 months or so as his coat is very thick and curly and he gets very hot. It costs me 20 pounds although have been quoted 30 pounds in saloon. There a fun loving dog if you put in the time and patient and all the training and lots of exercise to burn some energy off.. My cocker is a show cocker and was froma breeder in rughy warwickshire. I have also see many bichons and they do seem to be a fun loving dog with a big personality. but havent had much experience of them. good luck .


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lookingforapup said:


> I'm feeling that Bichons may be right for us. I'm a teacher so, if we timed it right, we would have the summer holiday to really get to grips with toilet training


I'm sure it's more important to be consistent with house training and put in the supervision. I've met ppl with Cockers who unfortunately used puppy pads indoors (claiming to follow vets advice), and are asking house training questions at 6 months, but hoping to crack it now; all functions still indoors overnight. That's worse than what I remember with paper training old style.

You might want to check any male opinion that matters though, I like Bichon's I met, but would feel more comfy with JRT or Cairn Terrier on end of leash, I am shuddering at thought of toy poodles or being made to walk a toy yorkie with a bow in hair :lol:


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

bobby the bichon doggy said:


> As for leaving him alone, today we went out for 2 1/2 hours this morning and he was fine no barking no toiletting, then we went this afternoon for an hour and half again the same no problem. *So i would certainly disagree with the the other persons comment about not being able to leave for more than hour. *


Ah, but they're all so different so you can't generalise. Your dog appears to have been fine left for those two periods today. Did someone listen out to know whether he barked while you were gone?

Poppy is rather timid, hides behind my legs when seeing strangers and comes round in her own time. Her litter sister (my son's dog) is much more confident and bold. Poppy never barks unless a stranger comes into the house. Her sister barks at people passing by in the street, runs up to people on the beach and just stands and barks at them. Same litter, totally different characters which is what you'd expect as they all have their own personalities.

We have gradually built up the time she can be left and have got to an hour. Her sister can be left for about four hours but she does have another dog for company, she's never been left completely alone. There's no way of knowing how she would cope with being alone as it's never happened.

Everyone is sharing their own experiences so that the OP can get a general idea on which to base her decision. Bichons are known for being people dogs who like company, plenty of breed info websites state this, and some of the replies on here have stated they would not consider leaving any dog on it's own for 7 hours. It looks like the OP is taking all this on board and looking at some kind of doggy care on the days she will be away for that length of time.


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## Cavalierlover123 (May 27, 2009)

What about a cavalier king charles ? They are also great with young children ! I have one and shes great


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## Katieforian (Mar 18, 2011)

I dont really have experience of Bichons but i have had a cocker and have a cocker x springer at the moment, the cocker i had when i was young was a red show cocker, he was brought up with me, my younger brother and was around my nieces and nephews alot. He was a brill dog, he never once showed any aggression towards people or animals. I remember my nephew pulling himself up on him when the dog was eating (my parents intervened as soon as they seen) but by the time they got to him the baby had grabbed a chunk of his skin and pulled himself up, the dog just looked as if to say "can someone get him off me please im trying to eat" there wasn't any growling etc. Every time we took him for a walk he drew attention from kids, which he loved. He strangely loved the vet and even when he was put to sleep his tail was wagging. My friend also has a red show cocker who looks and acts just like my old boy and they have never had a problem with her either. In my experience the show cocker is alot quieter than the working type, my cocker x is from a working line and is a nutter. Although rage syndrome would be a concern for anyone who has kids from what i have read it is relatively rare and can also be found in other dogs, not just cockers. The only downsides ive come across with cockers is they can be stubborn with there recall so need alot of work on it and there very greedy dogs who put weight on easily. I honestly wouldn't hesitate in getting another cocker again, but then im biased


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Thanks all.

Cavaliers have a great temperament but I was concerned about their health issues - i knew one who had the saggy tongue (i can't remember the correct term) and i understand they have heart problems.

RobD-BCactive, my husband really wants a red setter so wants to get a red cocker spaniel as his version of a compromise. He's not keen on the idea of a Bichon but he's well trained and knows when to give in to his female-dominated household! That said, I still haven't completely discounted the cocker. 

I should probably explain why i'm being quite so careful about health issues. We've had some very bad experiences with cats - one with a birth defect (spinal fluid problem that created fluid on the brain) that wasn't picked up until we'd had her for a couple of weeks (and by then had fallen in love with her) - she died a couple of months later. Another cat had a hole in the heart and died suddenly at only a few months old. I feel my daughters have really had their fill of ill pets so, even though i understand you can't predict these sorts of health problems (both kittens had a health check the day we collected them), I don't want to buy a breed who has known health problems / behaviour problems. I should add that the show cocker i was brought up with went blind at a very young age (but i'm happy that checks can now be done to identify parents who carry PRA) but lived to the ripe old age of 14 and gave us many hours of fun.

:001_smile:


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Bobby the Bichon Doggy, I've just read your thread re sleepless nights - poor you! At least babies have nappies! I remember camping out with my Shepherd for a week in the kitchen - he'd lie on my head looking like a hairy wig - very warm though, particularly in the middle of winter! I'd agree with the separation anxiety through - pups have to deal with so much! Sounds like you're doing a great job. Good luck. I think we'll all need an up-date in a month! :001_smile:


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

lookingforapup said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> Cavaliers have a great temperament but I was concerned about their health issues - i knew one who had the saggy tongue (i can't remember the correct term) and i understand they have heart problems.
> 
> ...


I made sure that my cocker when i got him had come from parents that had both had eye tests for PRA. MY COCKER IS TEN AND IS JUST STARTING TO LOOSE A LITTLE SIGHT AND HEARING STARTING TO FADE.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lookingforapup said:


> RobD-BCactive, my husband really wants a red setter so wants to get a red cocker spaniel as his version of a compromise. He's not keen on the idea of a Bichon but he's well trained and knows when to give in to his female-dominated household! That said, I still haven't completely discounted the cocker


Everyone should be happy with a family dog!

Not compromising by finding a suitable "red" dog, would be a mistake. If you later had trouble with a Bichon, he may resent his wishes being ignored and blame and frustration helps noone.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Everyone should be happy with a family dog!
> 
> Not compromising by finding a suitable "red" dog, would be a mistake. If you later had trouble with a Bichon, he may resent his wishes being ignored and blame and frustration helps noone.


To be honest my hubby didnt really want a dog but said it was Ok, he put lots of provisos in though  Had to be this that and the other whereas i was more focussed on the practicalities.

I seriously wish i had totally ignored him and just got exactly what i wanted because some of the areas of Oscar i struggle with are things i compromised on (sounds daft but hubby insisted on a cocker as a minimum size and he wanted a longer haired dof whereas i would have had a smaller, no working shorter haired breed)

He still resented Oscar early on as it is such hard work having any pup and this continued until i worked my butt off to train Oscar into the "consumate family dog" which he pretty much is now after 2 and half years


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

I have two Bichons, a male aged 7 and a female aged 2 and they are brilliant. House training took longer with my male but we got there in the end and now he's very clean in the house and would never do anything even in the middle of the night if he needs to go out he tells me (he sleeps in my bedroom in his bed) Great with kids too - my daughter was 3 when we got our first one. Great with small furries too like guinea pigs, rabbits, hamsters etc - we have all three. Non aggressive with people and other dogs. Had kids grabbing at them when walking them to school to pick up my youngest but none of them have ever bothered. 

Only drawback is they need to go to the groomers about every 7-12 weeks depending how short you have them done. I have my two cut quite short so they only go every 10-12 weeks or so.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> He still resented Oscar early on as it is such hard work having any pup and this continued until i worked my butt off to train Oscar into the "consumate family dog" which he pretty much is now after 2 and half years


That's different. That's "I don't want a dog", but then wanting to dictate on image grounds.

With the Bichon, the guy does *not want one*. He wants a Red Setter, and a Cocker seems like a compromise. I would try hard to find a breed that suits both, wanting a Setter implies desire to get out with a dog. If he's not going to take that responsibility, and all the dog care is going to be delegated, then I would tend to agree.

However, I do not really understand why ppl chose a dog based on what colour it is!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> That's different. That's "I don't want a dog", but then wanting to dictate on image grounds.
> 
> With the Bichon, the guy does *not want one*. He wants a Red Setter, and a Cocker seems like a compromise. I would try hard to find a breed that suits both, wanting a Setter implies desire to get out with a dog. If he's not going to take that responsibility, and all the dog care is going to be delegated, then I would tend to agree.
> 
> However, I do not really understand why ppl chose a dog based on what colour it is!


I think a cocker probably would be a good compromise but i agree with what you say, does hubby want a setter becaue he wants to get it out and about or does he just like the "look" of it 

Lots of people still think "looks" above "suitability" sadly.

I knew what i was taking on with a spaniel as i had grown up with springers but i think it would have been quite tough on all of us if i hadn't as spaniels are pretty full on and nothing quite prepares you for the onslaught of puppyhood within a family environment 

I would say if you are or intend to be an *"active"* family, out all weathers and have a lifestyle whereby a dog can accompany you most places then a cocker is a good choice but my best and most accurate description of Oscar when we got him was "a small terrorist crocodile" and it was a fair while and *alot *of work to shape him into being a great family dog


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

Cocker Cocker Cocker 
We got Holly when our boys were 3yrs & 8months, kept them pretty much separate until Holly was 10 months, passed the nipping stage etc! Now they are best friends! When my eldest was 4 he use to snuggle in with Holly in her crate 
Holly is the most fab dog ever, I trust her 100% with my boys, she was so easy to train, sitting, giving paw & staying at 10weeks old! She was a dream to house train & all in all the best family dog ever! She goes to the groomers about one every 6 months for a pamper & trim! Very low maintenance on the exercise front, super with other dogs & people! She comes everywhere with us! We go most weekend to our caravan where Holly loves her beach walks
Proper rage is very very rare in cockers, not something worth worrying about!
Solids are said to be more prone to guarding etc but I think a lots down to bad breeders! If you do your research and find a good breeder with good lines you'll have a fab family dog!
My friend had a Bichon, her kids were 10 & 5, lovely little thing but would snap a lot at passing dogs & walkers, probably down to poor socialising rather than the breed though!
I'm a member of a cocker forum which is great for cocker info, can also pm you a few breeder details if you wish
Good luck with finding you perfect pup and what ever breed you decide on 

Ps) we got a kitten called Maisie last week.....last night they were snuggled on the sofa together sleeping, they both woke up & the cat had a go at suckling from Holly!!!!!!! She's the biggest softy ever : )))


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> spaniels are pretty full on and nothing quite prepares you for the onslaught of puppyhood within a family environment
> 
> I would say if you are or intend to be an *"active"* family, out all weathers and have a lifestyle whereby a dog can accompany you most places then a cocker is a good choice but my best and most accurate description of Oscar when we got him was "a small terrorist crocodile" and it was a fair while and *alot *of work to shape him into being a great family dog


When I looked at breeds, there's not one that's "perfect" they all have their gotchas, and it's picking which ones you can deal with. May be they should get a Red Setter! :lol:

I actually know 2 Springer Spaniels who work with a local shoot and because it's out in the country, they don't have any of the problems those walking Spaniels in parks here. They can just be Spaniels, and are really placid round the house.

The Bichon's I met were quite playful and sociable, but I'd have to interrupt play, when my pup would take liberties.

I know a medium/small red spaniel that is smaller than the cockers, probably a KCS, that might be an easier option compared to both Bichon & Cocker, less grooming, less exercising and less embaressing for the man of the house


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> When I looked at breeds, there's not one that's "perfect" they all have their gotchas, and it's picking which ones you can deal with. May be they should get a Red Setter! :lol:
> 
> I actually know 2 Springer Spaniels who work with a local shoot and because it's out in the country, they don't have any of the problems those walking Spaniels in parks here. They can just be Spaniels, and are really placid round the house.
> 
> ...


I quite often recommend a Cavalier to people who stop and ask how "easy" Oscar is. When out with just me he looks like the perfect spaniel and i think this can lull people into thinking that is what they are buying into.

You can normally tell when you meet people if they are "up" for a cocker or if a Cavalier might be a better option and i have to say if they have very young children i recommend a Cav purely because cockers can be such "mouthy" puppies


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> You can normally tell when you meet people if they are "up" for a cocker or if a Cavalier might be a better option


I know what you mean, when I get asked, I make it clear that BC's are for "all weather" owners. My sister even lies, saying he's terrible in the house, destructive and bratty; when he's not digging the garden. :lol:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

On the men and fluffy dogs issue.... my stepdad considered himself a GSD man through and through - it was the only breed he had ever owned (although had been dogless for a few years before he got together with my mum).
He's a big guy, brick like the proverbial brick out outhouse, steel grey beard and dark glasses - and concerned about his reputation!

When he joined us we had our first bichon and he was totally smitten. When we lost her it was him that specified if we were getting another dog it HAD to be a bichon. As far as he's concerned anything else is "just a dog".

He has no problem taking Solo out - if anything he loves the attention he gets from all the women that want to fuss him (the dog - not my stepdad!!)

I certainly wouldn't rule out a potentially good match breed just because the man of the house worries about his image - he might surprise you.


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Fab responses.

Colette, my husband is obviously from a similar mould to your dad - like your dad, he is such a softy. He didn't really want a cat and just went along with it and was by far the most smitten!

He's not a physical long walks type. I am though... and drag my family out! So i know it would be me walking a setter every day - not him and i'm not prepared to walk a dog for more than 30-40 mins a day at the moment, at least i don't want to feel I _need _to. I'd prefer to have the option of doing short walks when i'm busy and do longer walks when i'm not at work etc.

The choice of a cocker really comes from me as my childhood one was a sweetie and my husband likes the whole domed head, floppy ears look. But, as i said above, he gets easily attached and it is the personality that is important - i know that he'd totally fall for a bichon - they seem to have a similar personality to him.

The only thing that puts me off cockers is that they're slightly bonkers (in the nicest possible way - own childhood experience!) and yes, i remember my cocker chewing my hands - i remember that very vividly!!!. Caviliers do seem like a great option but they're renowned for having health problems (heart and the problem where their tongue hangs out and they bite on it...can't remember the scientific term...).... Great as far as everything else goes though.......


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Colette said:


> When he joined us we had our first bichon and he was totally smitten


That can happen, but what if the dog's got issues, and part of the household is resentful? That kind of thing, can cause real trouble, and if the man likes dogs, then the "he'll do as he told" line might turn out to be a straw that breaks a back.

If you're a dog person, come on! If you end up with a dog that's just "No!", it will drive you totally crazy!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lookingforapup said:


> He's not a physical long walks type. I am though... and drag my family out! So i know it would be me walking a setter every day - not him and i'm not prepared to walk a dog for more than 30-40 mins a day at the moment


Well it cropped up before as a suggestion early on in thread.. but those red KCS are nice mini-setter-ish looking and practical. A softy is bound to love them, so I'd choose between one from great breeder & Bichon, and forget the Cocker http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/164211-cocker-bichon-2.html#post2457160.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Short walks could result in a bored Cocker and a bored Cocker is a bugger to live with


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Heart mitral valve disease (MVD) is a terminal illness which afflicts over half of all cavalier King Charles spaniels by the age of 5 years and nearly all Cavaliers by age 10 years. It is CKCSs' leading cause of death
- Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases

CKS are a really obvious choice but when you read the above - not good. I may quiz my vet - we got to know her really well when our cats were ill. She may know of a good , health conscious breeder.

I'll work on my hubby re the Bichon and see where that leads me. I'm really feeling a cocker would just be too scatty for us (and him) so i think you're right re Bichon or a CKCS (from a respected breeder)- they've both got the right personality for us which has to be the most important thing - you fall in love with a dog because it becomes part of your family not how it looks - i'll still love my hubby when he's old and falling apart (that'd be next week then) - love is blind as they say. What may seem important to my hubby now will be completely irrelevant when he cuddles a little bundle and receives his first lick (he'll be less likely to moan about sleepless nights and mess than me!).

:001_smile:

Thanks for your help. :001_smile:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think what anyone needs to think about with a spaniel cocker or springer and i have to say i would go for a springer everytime, is that yes they have to be walked in all weathers but it doesnt stop there you have to be prepared not to just walk in the rain but a springer or a cocker will come back in a hell of a mess, ive walked mine up the same field at the same time, chucking it down with rain with other people and their dogs and mine are always the wettest, muddiest by far,why? because they are spaniels they will not shake until they come into the house so you have wet, muddy dog/s to clean and towel off as well as yourself to strip the kitchen to clean down and thats 2/3 times a day, so do remember its not a case of walking out in the rain, with spaniels it becomes an all different ball game.
I will say as well that you need to have access to fields and woods that are in walking distance because the first time they come from a muddy, wet walk and shake all over the inside of your car. . . . . well ile leave you to imagine that.
Cockers and springers are fantastic dogs but not for the faint hearted, youl have some great fun but also some hairaising moments.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

lookingforapup said:


> Heart mitral valve disease (MVD) is a terminal illness which afflicts over half of all cavalier King Charles spaniels by the age of 5 years and nearly all Cavaliers by age 10 years. It is CKCSs' leading cause of death
> - Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases
> 
> CKS are a really obvious choice but when you read the above - not good. I may quiz my vet - we got to know her really well when our cats were ill. She may know of a good , health conscious breeder.
> ...


I have to say i know very little about the cav so i dont know how much the risk of having a cav with heart problems is if they are bought from a good breeder who health/heart tests before breeding does this reduce it significantly, if so and you want a cav you have to think about breeds that a certain health issue isnt typical so not screened for we had a springer that showed signs of a problem at 6 by 8 he had died from a genetic heart problem that isnt typical to a springer so isnt tested for it, so it can be quite a gamble with any breed.


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

I've just seen an advert for a Cavalier x Bichon pup - this could be the ideal scenario - looks like a fluffy cavalier with a bichon nose and would have a fantastic personality. This could well lessen the health issues too!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lookingforapup said:


> Heart mitral valve disease (MVD) is a terminal illness which afflicts over half of all cavalier King Charles spaniels by the age of 5 years and nearly all Cavaliers by age 10 years. It is CKCSs' leading cause of death
> - Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases
> 
> CKS are a really obvious choice but when you read the above - not good. I may quiz my vet - we got to know her really well when our cats were ill. She may know of a good , health conscious breeder.
> ...


A good tactic might be to let him see the health issues. And give him a say.
I know there's been other problems with KCS's, though they may have improved. Think it's Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
May be Italian greyhound?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lookingforapup said:


> I've just seen an advert for a Cavalier x Bichon pup - this could be the ideal scenario - looks like a fluffy cavalier with a bichon nose and would have a fantastic personality. This could well lessen the health issues too!


It could, I often really like mongrels, they tend to be honest dogs somehow. Is it designer dog, I almost suggested a mini-labradoodle, but thought they'd be over-priced, and too fashionable. I just seen a BC/JRT hybrid, makes me so curious!!!

This thread is kind of addictive :lol:English Toy Spaniel Information and Pictures
Oh it's not a mutt it's a "Cavachon" Cavachon, Cavachons, Cavalier Bichon Hybrid

Even I'm going soft at that!


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## lookingforapup (May 7, 2011)

Careful, you're going to end up with a pup yourself with all this searching on my behalf (all very much appreciated)!

Yep, i think this is a good option for us (Cavachon) - i won't tell my hubby this nickname - way too pretentious for his ears!). Husband had said he wanted a purebred but this is such a good option. He's out at mo' so i'll show him all my links tomorrow - poor thing.... Think i may buy him a nice bottle of something first - i find this helps him agree with me :001_smile: 

I vaguely remember seeing them before but discounted them due to the whole CKCS heart thing but a couple of ads are claiming the parents are heart and eye tested so looks fairly safe. 

Anyway, really must do token amount of work before i turn in. Thanks so much for your help - think we've got there!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lookingforapup said:


> Careful, you're going to end up with a pup yourself with all this searching on my behalf (all very much appreciated)


I'm sure everyone's had fun! We don't get to think about these choices all that often, and being detached gives certain clarity without the punishment of responsibility. When I met our guy, I knew it wasn't going to be a breeze, but kind of felt up for it, I felt very, very concious of being evaluated by the breeder. So I just concentrated on winning over her dogs, which I did of course 

They were the real decision makers in the outfit!

Think would have had a pup (again) but for bad holiday planning. We timeshare the dog and cover for each other, following on for caring for our parents dog. I have non-doggie woman to contend with, who'd probably prefer a Bichon :lol:
I get asked how I keep my dog so clean, and I tell them I just let him get muddy and then swim in the lake 
It's true but they don't believe me!


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

lookingforapup said:


> I've just seen an advert for a Cavalier x Bichon pup - this could be the ideal scenario - looks like a fluffy cavalier with a bichon nose and would have a fantastic personality. This could well lessen the health issues too!


Someone on my facebook friends list has one - it's very cute. :001_wub: You might find though they are asking for the same price as a Bichon. I looked at some before we got our second Bichon and they wanted over £450.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Crossbreeding doesn't magically mean no health problems - so if you do decide you want a cross PLEASE find a breeder that has bothered to have the parent dogs health tested for the relevent conditions!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Just to say i do agree with Haevemolly. The mess a Cocker brings into your home on a daily basis has to be seen to be believed and IMO is one of the real hidden issues with this breed (especially if they are as heavy coated as mine) Clipping does help but doesn't totally eliminate the problem. Which is why I should have ignored hubby and got a short haired dog.

If you are looking at crosses what about a cockerpoo. There are some health tested ones available near me at the moment so it is possible to cover the health bases with them and they are a combination of 2 relatively healthy breeds already  I have met several and they seem a nice size and are lots of fun. 

Bear in mind though it could still be as "busy" as a Cocker 

My friend has a Lhaso Apso and i would also recommend these as a good lower energy family dog. They need clipping regularly to manage the coat but are lots of fun but lower impact on the house, easy to come by and relatively healthy as a breed


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Bear in mind though it could still be as "busy" as a Cocker


That's one of the reasons, I might like Mongrels, they often have hybrid vigour. so they love doing things. I like non-show BC's and in the little dogs JRT's & Cairns.

A Cockerpoo, might actually be even busier than a Cocker, poodles just love to race around and jump. Even the small ones, used to like jumping over my BC till he was about 6 months old


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> That's one of the reasons, I might like Mongrels, they often have hybrid vigour. so they love doing things. I like non-show BC's and in the little dogs JRT's & Cairns.
> 
> A Cockerpoo, might actually be even busier than a Cocker, poodles just love to race around and jump. Even the small ones, used to like jumping over my BC till he was about 6 months old


I think "busy" is ok in a family dog as family households tend to be naturally quite busy and stimulating for most dogs but the Cockerpoos i have seen have all loved to chase but didn't seem so interested in "working" (ie spending the walk flushing the woods of all wildlife) than the cockers i see off lead. I am often seen wandering with a lead and no visible dog, i am sure people think i am a bit bonkers and just take the lead out with me


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

The Springers are same, would drive me potty. I do lose sight a bit of my dog occasionally, but it's not good form as the non-open areas are for wildlife. Also if he's out of sight, then I'm just relying on his general behaviour and avoiding trouble; I can't claim control.

In another wood I can play Hide & Seek and stuff, but you know the dog is on the trail, rather than rabbiting or squirreling.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Colette said:


> On the men and the fluffy dogs issue .....
> He's a big guy, brick like the proverbial brick out outhouse, steel grey beard and dark glasses - and concerned about his reputation!
> 
> When he joined us we had our first bichon and he was totally smitten. When we lost her it was him that specified if we were getting another dog it HAD to be a bichon. As far as he's concerned anything else is "just a dog".
> ...


I agree. My hubby always had border collies and I wanted a Pom. Eventually we got a Pom, despite his protestations. Now we have her, he absolutely adores her. He has no problems taking her for walks.

We are also considering a Bichon type breed of dig in the future because of their temperament and lack of health issues. We have been researching the Bichon Frise, Bolognese, Maltese, Coton de Tulear and Havanese. The OP might like to look into these breeds as well because they are all very similar with defferences in coat texture. The coat of one might be more suitable than another. Plus some are larger than others. We are currently favouring the Maltese over the Frise.


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## Steff (Mar 28, 2011)

My mum has 2 bichons and my sister has a Bichon x Maltese. All 3 are brilliant dogs. Mum got Missy (age 6) about 5 years ago from the RSPCA, tbh she was a complete nutter and loved doing laps around the garden as fast as she can lol but she's a great little dog, so funny, very good in the house and went to work with my mum, she has slowed down alot now tho and is so laid back. She does suffer with her anal glands, she has had 2 abscesses in them now and has to have them emptied regularly. My mum recently got her second Bichon, Maisie (aged 2) from Four Paws Rescue and she is the sweetest little thing ever, so affectionate loves cuddles, but is also nutter lol she loves playing and running around. The only problem with have at the moment with Maisie is her chewing things, ie card, paper, fake plants, etc but this is something i am helping mum with (my GSD went through a terrible stage of chewing everything inc my walls at one point) although when she starts going back to work both dogs will also go to work with her. The vet has said Maisie will also have to have her anal glands emptied quite regularly. 
Both dogs are great with kids and other dogs, they both get on well with my GSD.
My sisters Bichon x Maltese is a fantastic dog, he extremely laid back. He's never had any form of training but is very well behaved. He's housetraining isn't so great tho, but tbh i don't think my sister every properly housetrained him.

I would defiantly recommend a bichon to anyone


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> The Springers are same, would drive me potty. I do lose sight a bit of my dog occasionally, but it's not good form as the non-open areas are for wildlife. Also if he's out of sight, then I'm just relying on his general behaviour and avoiding trouble; I can't claim control.
> 
> In another wood I can play Hide & Seek and stuff, but you know the dog is on the trail, rather than rabbiting or squirreling.


This was what some of us were saying the other day about having to be a bit "relaxed" when it comes to owning a cocker. If i panicked every time he went out of sight i would spend the whole walk in anguish  I think this is why it's important to look at the "types" of walk you can give as well as the duration  Is the terrain suited to the dog


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Totally agree, and I feel that the thread kind of shows it's good idea to decide the basics before you worry about the uncertain things like "Rage Syndrome", it distracted from the obvious unsuitability.

For those wiith optimisistic anecodotes after ignoring strong feelings and it worked out, nice but perhaps lucky. I'm sure we've seen programmes where it didn't, and a fait-au-compli caused a huge rift. Depends how important the dog is to the people involved.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Totally agree, and I feel that the thread kind of shows it's good idea to decide the basics before you worry about the uncertain things like "Rage Syndrome", it distracted from the obvious unsuitability.
> 
> For those wiith optimisistic anecodotes after ignoring strong feelings and it worked out, nice but perhaps lucky. I'm sure we've seen programmes where it didn't, and a fait-au-compli caused a huge rift. Depends how important the dog is to the people involved.


I think it also depends on how well you know your family. After nearly 25 years of marriage, I would say I know my OH pretty well, so more a calculated risk than luck IMO.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I really don't believe that rage is something to worry about when buying a cocker these days. It has been pretty much bred out from what i can gather having researched and most cases diagnosed these days are mis diagnosis of behavioural issues. Seems any aggression from a cocker is "rage"  when actually rage is much more complicated than that as it is a phsychotic episode. There is no cure for Rage to my knowledge but behavioural issues obvioulsy can be resolved in most cases which is why if anyone suspects rage or it is diagnosed i would urge them to consult a leading expert rather than just take a vets word for it


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> The Springers are same, would drive me potty. I do lose sight a bit of my dog occasionally, but it's not good form as the non-open areas are for wildlife. Also if he's out of sight, then I'm just relying on his general behaviour and avoiding trouble; I can't claim control.
> 
> In another wood I can play Hide & Seek and stuff, but you know the dog is on the trail, rather than rabbiting or squirreling.


Ihave to say i have never had any problems with any of my springers and i have had 3 got 2 at the moment and they have all had very different personalities 2 male and a female, if you set off with a springer as you mean to go on you cannot go wrong because the first and foremost in a springers mind and personality (contrary to belief) is that a springer wants to please so once they have eatablished what pleases you, you are definetly on a winner. Brilliant breed!!!!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> if you set off with a springer as you mean to go on you cannot go wrong because the first and foremost in a springers mind and personality (contrary to belief) is that a springer wants to please


Don't get me wrong I like them. Now I'm going by the dog I see, and as RB says they're used for flushing game working there, which would be problematic where I walk. Remember I said they were great inside the house 

I think I agree they're generally biddable to, just quite a lot of ppl post about springers, and trouble with LLW and heeling, and then get responses like "it's a springer". I've never seen the gundogs walk on leash once


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Don't get me wrong I like them. Now I'm going by the dog I see, and as RB says they're used for flushing game working there, which would be problematic where I walk. Remember I said they were great inside the house
> 
> I think I agree they're generally biddable to, just quite a lot of ppl post about springers, and trouble with LLW and heeling, and then get responses like "it's a springer". I've never seen the gundogs walk on leash once


This is a very good read for anyone considering a working spaniel 

The Trouble With Springers


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Yep, exactly why I often try and put ppl off BC's. It's actually tiring having a dog that wants to work *with you* all the time and needs good few hours outside no matter how bad the weather. They could easily chase off after things and may have instincts getting in way. Then as well as the concentration needed to watch play doesn't get too obnoxious, where boisterous dogs are treading a fine line whilst they're running about. Of course you can stop thinking and delegate the problem to your right arm, just fetch, fetch, fetch; but that's hardly ideal either. Then there's the risk, that you make a mistake, just a couple of times and suddenly have a new bad habit.

Of course ppl with land can be more relaxed and less organised, but for many families as a starter dog, the BC is a recipe for disaster and plenty end up in Rescue at 1 yr old.


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