# Border collies and giving too much affection



## DOGPERSON

Hi,

I believe all border collies need a lot of exercise, whether they are domestic dogs or working dogs.

I have had two schools of thought about GIVING COLLIES AFFECTION, since being a dog person (a dog walker), and that is that too much affection ruins a collie working dog. And the other is that you can treat them like a family pet at the end of the day, and they can work out not to be slack outside \\

I have recently been told that giving too much affection story is rubbish,but I was just wondering what your opinion is?


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## Mese

My BC's are just pets , but I highly doubt that giving any animal affection will ruin it for working , tbh I would have thought just the opposite as then the dog would be very motivated to earn even more praise and affection so would work harder


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## Guest

I'm in Oz. Surrounded by a lot of uneducated, obstinate, completely closed minded farmers, some of whom have stock I would be utterly ashamed to admit were mine. I don't actually know a local farmer with inside dogs, who shows ANY kindness or affection. Most dogs are bellowed at, chained to hollow logs, even 44 gallon drums,when not working.

They All swear ANY compassion/kindness shown to dogs, ruins dogs and sneer at me. The only farmers I've ever seen show affection to their dogs, were competing at top, national level... so what do I know...

I do think most of those dogs have most of their behaviour programmed in. An idiot can only wreck the potential. Therefore, for the most part, most of the proudly uneducated, shockingly ignorant men ARE better with as little contact as possible. If you understand dog and sheep behaviour, if you bond like a cross species twin, with your dog, you can produce Unbelievable dogs.


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## smokeybear

It is impossible to give anything too much affection.


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## See A Man About A Dog

Echoing people's opinions here, positive training, encouragement and affection is the only option as far as I'm concerned.


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## Guest

I came back, because the question is flawed. Asking if TOO MUCH affection... implies the answer is yes. TOO MUCH implies excess. Rephrase to A LOT. In my first reply, I unthinkingly thought of my relationship with dogs.

Then you have to clearly define the affection. Healthy affection, or child substitute affection. If the dog is treated as a child substitute or status object, it can be made neurotic. It's a warped and self indulgent affection, but that wasn't the question you asked. In the phrasing of the question, you are not clear in the question, and I think you have been talking to someone who would be more at home with the saddo Australian farmers, and now someone has poured scorn on that terribly old generalisation, the mindset of dominance, of being the master, WITHOUT earning that leader/decison maker status, or understanding dogs, and you want reassurance your doubt is right and back up to argue back? 

NO dog can get TOO MUCH healthy affection. It damages nothing. Holding back affection and healthy bonding, forever limits what you can ask of your dog.

Huge amounts of affection can be extremely enjoyable, so bonding, so strengthening of a human/dog bond, but only if it is a healthy relationship. In not defining even the QUESTION clearly, I think you will really discover a world of dog psychology, that will so enrich your life and the dogs you deal with, if you shake off the 19th century attitudes to animals.


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## newfiesmum

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe all border collies need a lot of exercise, whether they are domestic dogs or working dogs.
> 
> I have had two schools of thought about GIVING COLLIES AFFECTION, since being a dog person (a dog walker), and that is that too much affection ruins a collie working dog. And the other is that you can treat them like a family pet at the end of the day, and they can work out not to be slack outside \\
> 
> I have recently been told that giving too much affection story is rubbish,but I was just wondering what your opinion is?


Dogs are social creatures and need affection from their humans. A true working dog like a border collie can take any amount of love and spoiling and still want to do what he was born for and I personally do not like to see one that is so fixated on his ball he has no time for anything else. My dogs will do almost anything for me, because they get the cuddles, kisses and love.

I used to live next door to a retired farmer who had had his collie pts when he moved from the farm because according to him it was a working dog and would never have settled as a pet. Absolutely crap in my opinion. He may not have settled indoors, but he could certainly have retired as well.


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## GingerRogers

OH works for a sheep farmer - boss is the school of don't fuss the dog or it wont work - it gets a pat and a feed at the end of the working day. OH is a bit softer than that he always gave the old boy some fuss and he ended up working better for hubby than boss. When we first met this dog he was incredibly timid especially of women, eventually he even worked for me, I was never anything but nice to him. When he ended his days boss got two more part trained and very expensive - they didn't work for boss so they didn't get taken out, if I can't work them no one will attitude - who knows it could have been because he didn't have a welsh accent  but........


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## missnaomi

newfiesmum said:


> Dogs are social creatures and need affection from their humans. A true working dog like a border collie can take any amount of love and spoiling and still want to do what he was born for and I personally do not like to see one that is so fixated on his ball he has no time for anything else. My dogs will do almost anything for me, because they get the cuddles, kisses and love.
> 
> I used to live next door to a retired farmer who had had his collie pts when he moved from the farm because according to him it was a working dog and would never have settled as a pet. Absolutely crap in my opinion. He may not have settled indoors, but he could certainly have retired as well.


My cousin was a shepherd until work became hard to come by (not an intentional pun) - his collie retired from herding at the same time, and lived happily as a pet for another 11 years, until dying peacefully at the age of 17.


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## Kayp

My border collie is the most spoilt boy.. He loves a cuddle and loves the house.. This takes nothing from
His instinct as when we are out he loves being of the lead running circles around me and my partner rounding us up when we run different directions.. He's a brilliant BC and a brilliant pet!!!


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## Sussexplumber

Border collies are my fave dog. Highly intelligent, agile, athletic and hardworking.


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## Moobli

My hubby is a shepherd and all our dogs (including the working sheepdogs) get plenty of fuss, affection and attention - and they thrive on it.


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## lozzibear

I don't agree with that... My aunt has working BCs (one at a time) and they are pets first, then workers. They live in the house, are fussed, are taken on walks to the beach etc... just like any other pet dog. They are still fully capable of herding her sheep though. 

A nieghbour of hers is an old widow, and she has sheep too. Someone else looks after the sheep though, and works the BCs, but the last time I visited (a few years ago now) she had 3 BCs, all of them worked. She had a large herd of sheep, much bigger than my aunts. This woman spoilt her dogs rotten, after becoming a widow they were all she had... well, them and her chickens. She had the sheep too but she was too old to do anything with them. 

My BC would hate if he got little affection, he is the cuddliest dog I have ever met.


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## hutch6

DOGPERSON said:


> I have recently been told that giving too much affection story is rubbish,but I was just wondering what your opinion is?


Of course it's ******!!! Go see some actual working trials if you want to see how the handlers get the best out of their dogs.

What a ridiculous train of thought. Nothing would work for something that didn't it right in any walk of life.

Affection creates trust and a bond FFS, what better combination is there for working together?


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## CaveDweller

Sorry but that is a load of bull***t whoever told you that lol My old man is a Shepherd and puts on daily displays of sheep herding for the public, it's very popular especially with the tourists to the area. His dogs just run free around the farm and the parking for the visitors is in the farm grounds. The dogs go to meet everyone out of their own will and get cuddles before they start the display. Also if the dog is not working for a minute in the display it will quite happily go into the crowd and get cuddles before he is sent back out to the sheep. His dogs have won many championships before and they get as much affection as your average house dog...tell that to the person that told you that crap lol


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## Hali

I think I can see where the 'too much affection' idea has come from...
in my opinion there needs to be a balance between affection and respect/discipline. 

I have known collies (including one of my existing rescues when I first got her) who have had plenty of affection but no discipline and it doesn't do them any favours. The clever ones (and most collies are clever) will often learn to take the mickey. I've found that with these dogs, less affection (at least in the short term) is better for them.

The people that I know who work their collies never use food/toys as a reward - the dogs work for the love of the job but also for praise. Their is plenty of affection between dog and handler, but it is not OTT, the dogs aren't permanently cuddled/stroked/clapped but there is a very strong bond between them.

So yes, I think that in certain circumstances and for certain collies too much affection can be a bad thing.


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## Colliebarmy

Im of the opinion that collies should maybe never have collars on, and dont take to leads (generally) as they prefer to run free and unfettered, we tried to "rescue" a WBC we found by the roadside in Bala with no collar, till the owner came out and spoke welsh to it.....lol


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## Sussexplumber

Colliebarmy said:


> Im of the opinion that collies should maybe never have collars on, and dont take to leads (generally) as they prefer to run free and unfettered, we tried to "rescue" a WBC we found by the roadside in Bala with no collar, till the owner came out and spoke welsh to it.....lol


Isn`t it a legal requirement that they (all dogs) are collared?


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## Spellweaver

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe all border collies need a lot of exercise, whether they are domestic dogs or working dogs.
> 
> I have had two schools of thought about GIVING COLLIES AFFECTION, since being a dog person (a dog walker), and that is that too much affection ruins a collie working dog. And the other is that you can treat them like a family pet at the end of the day, and they can work out not to be slack outside \\
> 
> I have recently been told that giving too much affection story is rubbish,but I was just wondering what your opinion is?


It's absolute rubbish. It belongs in the same category as other stupid things people say about dogs - things such as rubbing their nose in any mess they make to stop them messing in the house, or that a bitch should have one litter before she is spayed etc etc.

Anyone who knows anything at all about dogs knows that affection between humans and dogs are the basis of working partnerships.


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## Moobli

Colliebarmy said:


> Im of the opinion that collies should maybe never have collars on, and dont take to leads (generally) as they prefer to run free and unfettered, we tried to "rescue" a WBC we found by the roadside in Bala with no collar, till the owner came out and spoke welsh to it.....lol


Not sure where this school of thought comes in?


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## Moobli

Sussexplumber said:


> Isn`t it a legal requirement that they (all dogs) are collared?


Working dogs (ie working sheepdogs, but not pet collies) are exempt (as are working police dogs).


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## missnaomi

Colliebarmy said:


> Im of the opinion that collies should maybe never have collars on, and dont take to leads (generally) as they prefer to run free and unfettered, we tried to "rescue" a WBC we found by the roadside in Bala with no collar, till the owner came out and spoke welsh to it.....lol


I think my dog would like to run free all the time. But would soon be squashed in the road... Seriously though - do you really think this? And why? I am interested, not being facetious!


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## IncaThePup

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe all border collies need a lot of exercise, whether they are domestic dogs or working dogs.
> 
> I have had two schools of thought about GIVING COLLIES AFFECTION, since being a dog person (a dog walker), and that is that too much affection ruins a collie working dog. And the other is that you can treat them like a family pet at the end of the day, and they can work out not to be slack outside \\
> 
> I have recently been told that giving too much affection story is rubbish,but I was just wondering what your opinion is?


Mine is BC cross, but very collie temperament wise and very bright, she's been spoilt and cuddled, sleeps on my bed but never forgets I need her and has worked as my assistance dog helping me daily for the last 11 years.

She never forgets to tell me my textphone is ringing even though I don't practise often and will leave her toys (filled with treats) to come and tell me someone is at my door, or my phone is ringing or cos she heard me drop something or fall and goes to get my mobile and activate the emergency call button.

She saved my life once after only a few months of sound training learning to give the 'danger' signal when smoke alarm went off. what was surprising was in the real instance (kitchen filling with smoke) the alarm had actually failed to go off cos the batteries were flat! ..but she still had the intelligence to work out she needed to wake me up and indicate danger to me (I'd fallen asleep on the sofa).

I wouldn't want any other breed now!..and my newest recruit is going to be with us soon (hopefully this weekend..fingers crossed) to be trained to take over so she can retire or at least semi retire if he shares some of her more physical jobs with her as they get too much for her! 

Edited to Add: I did have to 'tighten the reins' discipline wise when she was going through her teen stage as she was starting to take advantage a bit but as soon as she knew she wasn't going to get away with it and if she wanted to stay pampered I expected obedience in exchange for cuddles and toys, she settled down again!


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## Lopside

I think there are so many misconceptions surrounding border collies & this causes some people to bring them into their homes and end up with hyperactive, car chasing, nipping loons, that then end up in rescue. I went to watch a seminar by Barbara Sykes (shepherdess/dog trainer). She didn't use treats or toys, her dogs walk at her side whether on a lead or off. They adore her. She adores them. They are a breed that needs a special relationship with their handler, they thrive off direction & training & affection. If you fail to give them the direction they need they will make their own entertainment up, usually undesirable! My pet collie is SO loved, and loves cuddles and affection. He walks on a lead beautifully. It's a question of understanding the breed & working with it.


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## Twiggy

Lopside said:


> I think there are so many misconceptions surrounding border collies & this causes some people to bring them into their homes and end up with hyperactive, car chasing, nipping loons, that then end up in rescue. I went to watch a seminar by Barbara Sykes (shepherdess/dog trainer). She didn't use treats or toys, her dogs walk at her side whether on a lead or off. They adore her. She adores them. They are a breed that needs a special relationship with their handler, they thrive off direction & training & affection. If you fail to give them the direction they need they will make their own entertainment up, usually undesirable! My pet collie is SO loved, and loves cuddles and affection. He walks on a lead beautifully. It's a question of understanding the breed & working with it.


I agree wholeheartedly with you but would just say that there are many thousands of collies/working sheepdogs that compete in various disciplines extremely successfully who are stuffed with tit-bits and play with their handlers. Whilst Barbara Sykes is a very good trainer, so are many agility, flyball, obedience and working trials trainers who advocate using toys and tit-bits. Each to their own.


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## Guest

I wonder if these too much affection folks also worry about giving their wives or husbands too much affection, of their kids...
What does that even mean too much affection anyway?


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## Lopside

Twiggy said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with you but would just say that there are many thousands of collies/working sheepdogs that compete in various disciplines extremely successfully who are stuffed with tit-bits and play with their handlers. Whilst Barbara Sykes is a very good trainer, so are many agility, flyball, obedience and working trials trainers who advocate using toys and tit-bits. Each to their own.


Oh i 100% agree, i use treats & toys too. Most people need help (me included) by using positive incentives to encourage the right behaviour & rewards.....and confidence! I just mentioned B.Sykes as her skill with collies is fantastic to watch, she works her dogs & they clearly adore her, and she is very affectionate with them. I think if a person tried to hug her she would give them a right hook, but she was always hugging and petting her dogs


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## ClaireandDaisy

Am I alone in finding the original question rather a sad one? 
*as in the original meaning of the word sad that is


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## Twiggy

ouesi said:


> I wonder if these too much affection folks also worry about giving their wives or husbands too much affection, of their kids...
> What does that even mean too much affection anyway?


My husband says he's way down the list for affection and he would never want to be lined up by a firing squad and for me to choose which one to shoot....


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