# what happens to stud cats when not of use?



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Just wondering what breeders do when they no longer need their stud cat for "duties" ...

I've read many live outside, so do they neuter, bring them inside, keeping them as pets?


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

not sure but i always see ex studs for sale 9 times out of ten neuterd, i would like to think good breeders would keep there stud cat as a pet after they have finished using him for stud. After all they are supposed to be their pets.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

My stud boy lived indoors until about 18 months but is happier outside now he is mature.... My neuters go out in the run with him during the day and at night he snoozes or watchs the nightlife quite happily. He has never sprayed and is a gorgeous loving boy - when he is neutered next year and after a safe period for his to lose any fertility he will come back in at night


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

I'd love to say yes but alas if you look on the adds there are loads of "ex breeding stud looking for new home" as well as "retired breeding queen" They still expect you to pay top price as you would a kitten too! 

It just shows what these poor cats mean to these people - a comodity to use then sell when no longer as usefull


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The most common practice is to neuter and rehome. Sometimes a stud may be passed on entire if the owner has confidence in the home he will be going to, especially if his genes are of use to another breeder and he is still young. Some breeders never retire their studs at all.


Liz


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

poor cats, i dont think i would ever sell my queens or stud... unless i really needed to (due to circumstances beyong my control) cats can live up to 15 years .. its not fair to throw them out with the garbage after youve finished making money off them!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> It just shows what these poor cats mean to these people - a comodity to use then sell when no longer as usefull


It's not like that, it's about keeping a line going. There is quite simply a limit to the number of cats it is possible to have at any one time and if you have 30 cats or something like that then unless you have vast facilities and a lot of money, you are not going to be able to keep any more kittens until you have rehomed some adults. I know I am going to have to rehome some young adults this year and I am not looking forward to it at all but honestly I have no choice if I want to move on.

Liz


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

I've got a neutered ex-stud cat...he was neutered at 15months when I took him on from the breeder (and his sister), he didn't really like girls  so didn't take to stud life too well....He's amazing ETA and i'm very grateful to his breeder for letting me have him (and her) she loved them to bits but couldn't keep them as neuters and carry on breeding as she just didn't have space, it's worked out very well for all of us


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

lizward said:


> It's not like that, it's about keeping a line going. There is quite simply a limit to the number of cats it is possible to have at any one time and if you have 30 cats or something like that then unless you have vast facilities and a lot of money, you are not going to be able to keep any more kittens until you have rehomed some adults. I know I am going to have to rehome some young adults this year and I am not looking forward to it at all but honestly I have no choice if I want to move on.
> 
> Liz


surely your cats are your pets though, yes i understand that there is a certain amount of cats you can have in a house but when you reach that number surely that means that you will just have to stop breeding for the time being. I know in the dog world breeders have joint ownership of their pups with the new owners and help the new owners to futher the line for them.


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm all for keeping lines going and improving lines but at what cost? I dont believe its ok to continue breeding if the cats are there to simply "exist" every one breed deserves a loving home waiting for them!

These young adults you say your going to have to rehome - why? Are they neutuered and of no use to your breeding programe? Are they ones you kept back intending to breed from but turned out they are not as quality as expected? Are they kittens that you were unable to rehome?

I am not opposed to the occasional rehome if it is absolutely nessecary or in the best interest of the animal and thankfully like the above poster there are people out there to provide happy pet homes but it seems to be too commonplace that ex breeding queens and studs are soo easily advertised.

They should be your prized, loved pets FIRST and breeding queen stud second!


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## 2lisa2 (Apr 30, 2010)

how does it work with stud cats aswell i could be wrong but dont they spray ive heard once they start this its hard to stop even after being neutred so how would this work in regard to going to a pet home once they have retired just curious


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Apparently it isn't usually a problem. The environment is new, there are no entire females around, and this makes quite a difference.

Liz


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## 2lisa2 (Apr 30, 2010)

lizward said:


> Apparently it isn't usually a problem. The environment is new, there are no entire females around, and this makes quite a difference.
> 
> Liz


thanks just really curious


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Marley boy said:


> surely your cats are your pets though, yes i understand that there is a certain amount of cats you can have in a house but when you reach that number surely that means that you will just have to stop breeding for the time being. I know in the dog world breeders have joint ownership of their pups with the new owners and help the new owners to futher the line for them.


Yes they are my pets, but basically you have "heart cats" (ones you would never rehome) and then others that you do rehome. You just tell yourself all along that they are only ever going to be temporary residents. I haven't actually done it yet, but that's the plan for when I have to.

I'd be very keen to work with new owners on furthering a line but it is very uncommon in the cat world.

Liz


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

This is true, some male cats partically older ones once neutered can continue to spray and need to be trained to stop of which there will inevitably the occasional one that will never stop spraying. I've seen it before where a stud has been neutered and rehomed and they couldn't get him to stop spraying so ended up being rehomed again and again until he finally found a nice outdoor life on a farm where the owner was ok about it as he turned out to be a brilliant ratter!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> These young adults you say your going to have to rehome - why? Are they neutuered and of no use to your breeding programe? Are they ones you kept back intending to breed from but turned out they are not as quality as expected? Are they kittens that you were unable to rehome?


One I only ever intended to have one or two litters from, she was were "back up" if you like. Some will have made their contribution to my line. One I simply couldn't bear to part with as a kitten but it was a mistake to keep her.

Liz


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## Riobelle (Jun 3, 2010)

I think the main thing that it comes down to is what is in the best interests for the cat. In an ideal world you would keep every animal but is it fair to keep them if they are going to be one of many cats in a breeding home or maybe not get on with the existing residents when they do move inside. I'm sure there are a lot of very happy ex stud cats living the life of luxury they deserve as single lap cats. Thankfully I haven't had to think about rehoming as I have three cats and they will stay with me forever but I would hope I would always put the interests of the cat first. I have taken on an adult breeding queen who was very unhappy in her last home and hid away from human contact. She is now the most loving and affectionate cat you could wish for and I'm so glad she was rehomed so she can have a happy rest of her life with me xxx


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

A breeder I know, whom I respect, does rehome their ex studs and queens.

They say they want them to be in a place where they can be fussed over and be the centre of attention. Naturally in a place where there are upwardsof ten cats, it is not the same.

They do always take back kittens that the owners are not keeping. They have a boy there at the moment who will not let them touch him, he is very nasty, and could never be rehomed. They are keeping him as he has nowhere else to go, so I do not think they just see cats as commodities. I know they don't, but I think they feel they are doing what is best for the cat, and I dont see anything hugely negative about that.


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> One I only ever intended to have one or two litters from, she was were "back up" if you like. Some will have made their contribution to my line. *One I simply couldn't bear to part with as a kitten but it was a mistake to keep her. *
> 
> Liz


Erm 2 is alot less than some - when you said some I thought you meant more than that lol!

Im interested in this one though, why was it a mistake to keep her? We all know what its like when you fall in love with a kitten and cant bear to part with but not come accross someone who thought it was a mistake before?

Although I really dont agree with the "back up" I do understand it and some other breeders I know of also have do the same


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

Riobelle said:


> I think the main thing that it comes down to is what is in the best interests for the cat. In an ideal world you would keep every animal but is it fair to keep them if they are going to be one of many cats in a breeding home or maybe not get on with the existing residents when they do move inside. I'm sure there are a lot of very happy ex stud cats living the life of luxury they deserve as single lap cats. Thankfully I haven't had to think about rehoming as I have three cats and they will stay with me forever but I would hope I would always put the interests of the cat first. I have taken on an adult breeding queen who was very unhappy in her last home and hid away from human contact. She is now the most loving and affectionate cat you could wish for and I'm so glad she was rehomed so she can have a happy rest of her life with me xxx


As I say Im really not adverse to them being rehomed IF its in their best interest! I'm so glad your kitty has settled into a life of luxury she deserves :thumbup: However unfortunately there are too many adverts for it to be these kind of cases - some people really do treat them as "a business" and just want to make way for more kittens to sell.

Maybe its just the rescue part of me coming through but I really dont believe any breeder should consider breeding more kittens if they cant handle/dont have the time/money for the ones they already have - surely they should stand by their current responsibilities first?! Also if they dont have the time to show affection/fuss/love for one ex stud/queen then how do they have the time to handle and socialise 3/4/5/6/7/8 kittens????


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> You just tell yourself all along that they are only ever going to be temporary residents.
> 
> Liz


Or in other words money making machines for so long!! Would it not be better just paying for an outside Stud than using an animal then getting rid


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Interesting input and it would indeed be interesting to know how many ex studs do settle into a pet life without issue 

Without doubt (in my opinion) many if not most will enjoy a better quality of life as a pet, if placed in a good and loving home.

I'm not "against" re-homing ex breeding cats, for this reason, though I could not part with my own animals with the ease so many breeders seem to do. But then many breeders do not seem to view their cats (or dogs) as pets and companions. That is not to say all breeders are like this ... before anyone jumps down my throat 

As mentioned I think it's poor that some breeders ask so much for their ex breeding animals, they should not be so greedy and simply neuter and ask for a fee perhaps to cover this. The better ones often do, but seem to be in the minority ...


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> They have a boy there at the moment who will not let them touch him, he is very nasty, and could never be rehomed. They are keeping him as he has nowhere else to go, so I do not think they just see cats as commodities.


Is this boy a Stud cat? as imo I would not breed from a dog with a temprement like described. In the dog world breeders who rehome ex breeders are not particularly liked as they are classed as using animals like a business not as pets first and foremost


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Erm 2 is alot less than some - when you said some I thought you meant more than that lol!


There is a "some" in the middle. it could be as many as five.



> Im interested in this one though, why was it a mistake to keep her? We all know what its like when you fall in love with a kitten and cant bear to part with but not come accross someone who thought it was a mistake before?


She's only 3/4 pedigree therefore not for the breeding programme. Then difficulty is that she is at the bottom of the heap, she absolutely loves human affection but doesn't relate to the other cats, she wants constant cuddles and as one of many who won't come near most of the other cats (except her Mum) she's simply not getting the amount of attention she would probably like. It's a difficult one to say the least but I honestly think she'd be happier elsewhere.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gladass said:


> Or in other words money making machines for so long!! Would it not be better just paying for an outside Stud than using an animal then getting rid


I am talking about girls. There is one boy I will rehome but he is only half pedigree (my outcross programme). There aren't many half pedigree registered studs around - if any at all.

Liz


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

gladass said:


> Is this boy a Stud cat? as imo I would not breed from a dog with a temprement like described. In the dog world breeders who rehome ex breeders are not particularly liked as they are classed as using animals like a business not as pets first and foremost


No sorry, he WAS sold as a stud originally as a kitten (from my breeders to another) That person then said they were stopping breeding so would they like their cat back, they of course said yes.

When they got him back, they saw how nasty he was. They then found out he had been kept alone locked in a bedroom without any human contact, and was, wild. They THEN found out that the person who gave him back to them bought a whole load of new breeding stock, so wasnt giving up breeding at all... they just wanted space for a new stud boy.
They said theyve just about got him to the point where they can groom him and be with him but he attacks everyone else and other cats.

He is now neutered and live in a section of their cattery as he cannot be kept with other cats due to his temperament, but they are working on it.


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## Guest (May 2, 2011)

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> I'd love to say yes but alas if you look on the adds there are loads of "ex breeding stud looking for new home" as well as "retired breeding queen" They still expect you to pay top price as you would a kitten too!
> 
> It just shows what these poor cats mean to these people - a comodity to use then sell when no longer as usefull


Yep! some like their pound of flesh sothey do!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep! some like their pound of flesh sothey do!


Indeed, and if they gave a jot they'd neuter them first too


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## Guest (May 2, 2011)

gladass said:


> Is this boy a Stud cat? as imo I would not breed from a dog with a temprement like described. In the dog world breeders who rehome ex breeders are not particularly liked as they are classed as using animals like a business not as pets first and foremost


Agree with you 200% but perhaps (note PERHAPS them of you who are inclined to take my words the wrong way) cat breeders do not bother too much about termprement and go more for 'looks' I mean, when did you last hear of a child mauled to death by the family cat


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Agree with you 200% but perhaps (note PERHAPS them of you who are inclined to take my words the wrong way) cat breeders do not bother too much about termprement and go more for 'looks' I mean, when did you last hear of a child mauled to death by the family cat


If my friends Siamese were anythting to go buy, temperament was NOT high on breeders "wish list" 

Not saying this is typical of breed before anyone has a strop :nono:


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> No sorry, he WAS sold as a stud originally as a kitten (from my breeders to another) That person then said they were stopping breeding so would they like their cat back, they of course said yes.
> 
> When they got him back, they saw how nasty he was. They then found out he had been kept alone locked in a bedroom without any human contact, and was, wild. They THEN found out that the person who gave him back to them bought a whole load of new breeding stock, so wasnt giving up breeding at all... they just wanted space for a new stud boy.
> They said theyve just about got him to the point where they can groom him and be with him but he attacks everyone else and other cats.
> ...


Thanks for info. Poor Boy indeed


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Agree with you 200% but perhaps (note PERHAPS them of you who are inclined to take my words the wrong way) cat breeders do not bother too much about termprement and go more for 'looks' I mean, when did you last hear of a child mauled to death by the family cat


lol true and maybe but they do have a Standard I believe much the same as dogs for different breeds and temprement is mentioned


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Agree with you 200% but perhaps (note PERHAPS them of you who are inclined to take my words the wrong way) cat breeders do not bother too much about termprement and go more for 'looks' I mean, *when did you last hear of a child mauled to death by the family cat*


:lol: I'm more likely to be "squidged to death" can see it on the 10 o'clock news now - "woman squidged to death as too many cats try to get in the same bed"


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

There are several types of breeder out there:

1. The breeder who keeps 3 or 4 queens. They may or may not own a stud. They do not rehome any of them when they retire from breeding ... they wait until such a time that there is naturally a space open up (that was the nicest way I could think to put that ).

2. The breeder who has perhaps double the numbers and keeps their queens and studs outside, bringing them in when they are in kitten until their babies leave home at 13 weeks. They usually rehome one or two retired queens every few years, but keep their studs.

3. Same as above but they don't rehome their retired studs or queens at all ... so mixed with the first type of breeder too.

4. The unscrupulous kitten farmer who has so many cats they could be classed as a hoarder. These usually are viewed only as 'stock' and rarely pets. They become disposable. They also usually show for status, if a cat they show should not meet show standard or not win as many rossettes as possible they are rehomed. If they throw kittens that don't give the colours they want the breeder is usually disappointed. If they lose a particular coloured kitten after birth they usually seem more upset about that than the fact the poor love died. Nothing will usually stop these breeders from breeding. Or from learning from their mistakes. These are the breeders that usually end up on 'Breeders exposed' or 'Puppy/Kitten farmers exposed' kind of programs.

All but the last kind of breeder will take pride in health testing and checking before breeding any cat. Though even the last one might occasionally health test, if it benefited them.


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## tylow (Feb 11, 2009)

If we were all the same i reckon it would be a pretty boring and potentially awful world. We personally couldn't keep a stud cat firstly because our garden space is not suited to adequate quarters and excersise space being available and secondly because we couldn't cope with the lifestyle he would have to live. I have great respect for the breeders who keep stud boys in good quarters providing the stimulation required to ensure they lead a satisfying existance. The neutered male is often an entirely different entity from the hormonal entire working boy. Many of my friends "retire" their stud boys at a young age to allow them the happiness of being a much loved pet in a home where they are simply that. I firmly believe in some cases in order to continue breeding cats have to be rehomed. I know breeders who have struggled with the decision to rehome their cats but in order to continue breeding and showing it was essential. In saying that it is not something we would currently consider and if necessary we would not breed if it meant moving on cats.


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> There are several types of breeder out there:
> 
> 1. The breeder who keeps 3 or 4 queens. They may or may not own a stud. They do not rehome any of them when they retire from breeding ... they wait until such a time that there is naturally a space open up (that was the nicest way I could think to put that ).
> 
> ...


Very informative but you missed one..

5. Someone who buys a pedigree queen, pumps out as many kittens as possible then keeps a female kitten and rehomes the mother and starts pumping out kittens from that one then keeps one kitten and rehomes that one and continues a cycle like that - I did see it once and got the rspca involved but they weren't interested as the cat seemed "healthy enough"


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> If my friends Siamese were anythting to go buy, temperament was NOT high on breeders "wish list"
> 
> *Not saying this is typical of breed before anyone has a strop* :nono:


Bloody good job too, I was just about to jump down your throat


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

It's good to hear these cats apparently adapt to new "proper" homes, it must be awful being put outside (however lavish their accommodation) after presumably being reared indoors as kittens 

I suppose breeders would say "needs must"


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

dougal22 said:


> Bloody good job too, I was just about to jump down your throat


I anticipated just that happening 

I have re-homed a few Siamese, two brothers were the first, one an angel ... one a demon  They hated my husband, hated all men, so went to a local single lady with experience of these kitties.

Another was a gentleman of a cat, found wandering, neutered, way before most people chipped or we had internet access to post him online ... sad as I felt sure he had a home somewhere 

Nobody in our area looked for him, so he went to a lovely couple, I would have LOVED him, but not the right time.


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## tylow (Feb 11, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> It's good to hear these cats apparently adapt to new "proper" homes, it must be awful being put outside (however lavish their accommodation) after presumably being reared indoors as kittens
> 
> I suppose breeders would say "needs must"


It would either be awful or fantastic. Imagine down beside the big boys. Away from all the hormonal females who visit only to satisfy your wicked desires then are whisked away after you've done the deed. Spraying to your hearts content with no fear of upsetting the pesky humans


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tylow said:


> It would either be awful or fantastic. Imagine down beside the big boys. Away from all the hormonal females who visit only to satisfy your wicked desires then are whisked away after you've done the deed. Spraying to your hearts content with no fear of upsetting the pesky humans


Hardly the same as a warm fire and a lap to sit on at night ... especially on winter nights. However well heated your "shed."


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## tylow (Feb 11, 2009)

A warm fire and a lap to sit on at night, forget the stud boy where do you stay  Seriously I get your point hence i don't have a stud boy but i suppose a heated shed beats a cold draughty barn. Yes a warm fire and nice lap beats everything but our poor cats have never seen a fire  Good job they've nice thick coats.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> It's good to hear these cats apparently adapt to new "proper" homes, it must be awful being put outside (however lavish their accommodation) after presumably being reared indoors as kittens
> 
> I suppose breeders would say "needs must"


My boy chose to start sleeping out at night. He and my 4 neuters have always gone in the run during the day for fresh air and stimulation of outside in a safe environment. One day he flatly refused to come in overnight and since then has slept out. He comes in every evening for cuddles and a groom but he is absolutely content and in tip top condition. I really want him back in with me but there is no doubt he is a happy and relaxed boy.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Hardly the same as a warm fire and a lap to sit on at night ... especially on winter nights. However well heated your "shed."


Don't believe that, last winter my boy was in far warmer accommodation than I was!

Liz


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> There are several types of breeder out there:
> 
> 1. The breeder who keeps 3 or 4 queens. They may or may not own a stud. They do not rehome any of them when they retire from breeding ... they wait until such a time that there is naturally a space open up (that was the nicest way I could think to put that ).
> 
> ...


i intend to have 4 queens and 1 stud... hopefully they will all stay with me until death do us part... unless i can see a real issue where a cat isnt happy and may be happier elsewhere i personally wouldnt sell ex "stock" ... and even then im sure my dad and sister would love to help me out by giving one a good home if ever i did need to find one


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Hardly the same as a warm fire and a lap to sit on at night ... especially on winter nights. However well heated your "shed."


Some cats would prefer it and some wouldn't! Cats are very different and what one loves another may hate - I cant stand camping, bugs, portaloos, cold, wet, eeerrrhhhh gross! But there are many, many lovers of camping that would rather spend the night in a tent than in their own beds! :blink:

However majority of cats dont like change and being wrenched from everything they've ever known I believe is far more cruel than a cat that is used to and probably enjoys sleeping in their "heated shed"


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## tylow (Feb 11, 2009)

lizward said:


> Don't believe that, last winter my boy was in far warmer accommodation than I was!
> 
> Liz


I think Amethyst was referring to the ideal situation whereby happy contented human sits by the fire with equally happy contented cat rolled up on said humans lap  I'm just remembering last winter - mad demented calling cat pacing the house wishing to get out and find entire boy, not getting home till god knows when let alone being able to sit. Desperately wishing i was our male neuter who really has that ideal life - apart from the warm fire, he has to make do with a warm radiator


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Shayden said:


> i intend to have 4 queens and 1 stud... hopefully they will all stay with me until death do us part... unless i can see a real issue where a cat isnt happy and may be happier elsewhere i personally wouldnt sell ex "stock" ... and even then im sure my dad and sister would love to help me out by giving one a good home if ever i did need to find one


I'm in a very similar mindset myself. My limit will be four cats. While I love breeding and showing my kitties, they are definately pets first. When the time comes that they can no longer be shown or bred from I will give up on my hobby until the time comes that a natural space opens up (stolen from Aurelia, I really can't think of a nicer way to say it). They're my family first and foremost.

However I do know a lot of breeders who neuter and rehome their queens and studs when they are no longer suitable for breeding. They all find it a difficult decision and they are as careful in finding new homes for their adult cats as their kittens. I'm to soft at heart to do it myself but, in my experience of fellow breeders, rehoming is never a decision to be taken lightly.

That said, I may be lucky in that so far I have only personally met lovely breeders...


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

I haven't read all posts but here's how I do. I either have studs placed with co-owners or at home, in my home. Studs that live here with me are neutered when their finished in breeding and yes they are rehomed. Why? It goes something like this. The biggest gene pool problems we usually have are to few males in breeding. In order to keep maximum genetic diversty in the gene pool we need to keep as many males as possible going and they need to produce appr. the same amount of kittens (if one stud produce many more kittens than the other studs you may end up with problems avoiding inbreeding in future geenrations). Most breeders, at least here in Sweden, can't keep more than one stud. Here studs and queens live as pets and studs usually don't go well together so that's why we usually only can have one stud at a time. When his neutered we need a new stud.

Even when we breeders co-operate and use each others studs, we need to have at least one active stud each in order to keep the genetic diversity. Since studs usually start to spray, at least when they live wth females, they're usually neutered between the age of 1 and 3 years. YES, they have a very short breedng career. Understanding this you can easily calculate that a breeder would end up with quite a number of cats if no one would be rehomed. Or, we breeders would quit breeding quite soon because of overcrowding.

Another aspect is that a spraying stud often keeps spraying if he stays at his territory, with fertile females and especially if you bring home a new stud.

This is why I rehome studs.

But, a better option is having co-owners. I don't know if this system is used outside Scandinavia so I'll explain. In short, the co-owners are regular people who want a pet cat. The stud lives with the co-owner as a pet but the breeder is the legal owner of the cat. The breeder has breeding and showing rights (and of course the breeder pays for vaccines, health checks, insurance and all breeding or showing related costs). When the stud is finished in breeding, the stud is neutered and the co-owner becomes the legal owner *at no cost*.

So, the breeder gets a stud that doesn't take any room in the home and the co-owner get a purebred cat for free. Of course a contract is written where you go through in detail what happens if the stud starts spraying, if he becomes ill etc.

The co-owner system usually works well and as long as the male goes to the co-owner as a kitten and is the only cat (or lives with one or two neutered cats) he usually doesn't start to spray. At least not more than can be managed. My current stud lives solo with his co-owners and he's sprayed twice since he became fertile.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Agree with you 200% but perhaps (note PERHAPS them of you who are inclined to take my words the wrong way) cat breeders do not bother too much about termprement and go more for 'looks' I mean, when did you last hear of a child mauled to death by the family cat


Well you obviously have never met my mil cat, he is the devil in cat form I have scars to prove this! If he walks in to a room I walk out, I scream if he jumps out from behind the door. He sleeps in the bathroom no Idea why but if he is in there I just hold on untill I get home. My sil has scars on her leg that had to have stitches he will attack for no reason and chase you! He is so god damn cute though


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Slightly off topic....but do males who are left entire well in to adulthood develop differently personality -wise?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> But, a better option is having co-owners. I don't know if this system is used outside Scandinavia so I'll explain. In short, the co-owners are regular people who want a pet cat. The stud lives with the co-owner as a pet but the breeder is the legal owner of the cat. The breeder has breeding and showing rights (and of course the breeder pays for vaccines, health checks, insurance and all breeding or showing related costs). When the stud is finished in breeding, the stud is neutered and the co-owner becomes the legal owner *at no cost*.
> 
> So, the breeder gets a stud that doesn't take any room in the home and the co-owner get a purebred cat for free. Of course a contract is written where you go through in detail what happens if the stud starts spraying, if he becomes ill etc.
> 
> The co-owner system usually works well and as long as the male goes to the co-owner as a kitten and is the only cat (or lives with one or two neutered cats) he usually doesn't start to spray. At least not more than can be managed. My current stud lives solo with his co-owners and he's sprayed twice since he became fertile.


Do you know what, I like that idea!

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

So do I, I particularly like the 'at no cost' part to the pet owner. 
I'm always astounded when I see adverts wanting money for ex breeding cats. I started out thinking rehoming was the devil's work but it can be the best possible retirement for a cat. I don't do it as a matter of course but have done when it was best for the cat though I've always neutered first and wouldn't dream of charging. I don't advertise in that situation, I just wait for the right home to turn up and it always does.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> But, a better option is having co-owners. I don't know if this system is used outside Scandinavia so I'll explain. In short, the co-owners are regular people who want a pet cat. The stud lives with the co-owner as a pet but the breeder is the legal owner of the cat. The breeder has breeding and showing rights (and of course the breeder pays for vaccines, health checks, insurance and all breeding or showing related costs). When the stud is finished in breeding, the stud is neutered and the co-owner becomes the legal owner *at no cost*.
> 
> So, the breeder gets a stud that doesn't take any room in the home and the co-owner get a purebred cat for free. Of course a contract is written where you go through in detail what happens if the stud starts spraying, if he becomes ill etc.
> 
> The co-owner system usually works well and as long as the male goes to the co-owner as a kitten and is the only cat (or lives with one or two neutered cats) he usually doesn't start to spray. At least not more than can be managed. My current stud lives solo with his co-owners and he's sprayed twice since he became fertile.


Sounds a good deal for the breeder  Hardly that for the co owner who wants a pet ... but then if they are desperate for a free pedigree cat ...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> adverts wanting money for ex breeding cats. I started out thinking rehoming was the devil's work but it can be the best possible retirement for a cat. I don't do it as a matter of course but have done when it was best for the cat though I've always neutered first and wouldn't dream of charging. I don't advertise in that situation, I just wait for the right home to turn up and it always does.


I have advertised adult rehomes but I never charge apart from the cost of neutering.

Liz


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> Do you know what, I like that idea!
> 
> Liz


And me! I think some people would be happy with being the pet owner to, it would really appeal to the ones who think their kittie is gorgeous and would make lovely kittens people!


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

I wonder if anyone uses the same system in the Uk? It would certainly be a great option for a breeder such as myself. I wouldn't want a stud living outside at my home. We don't really have the garden space for another pen and I don't honestly think I'd be able to spend as much time outside with him as I'd like. But i'd be happy to financially support a family based indoor boy at a friends house!


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> I have advertised adult rehomes but I never charge apart from the cost of neutering.
> 
> Liz


Thats fair enough, its the people who still expect £3/4/500 quid for them - even saw one the other day who wanted £650 and the poor cat wouldn't even be neutered!!!!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Wow, cheapskates are going to be bombarding breeders for a "free" pedigree tom cat to stink their homes out


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Sounds a good deal for the breeder  Hardly that for the co owner who wants a pet ... but then if they are desperate for a free pedigree cat ...


It's a good deal for both parties. If the stud is a pain in the ass for the co-owner he's neutered. A stud can make a good pet, but like I wrote earlier... it's best if he's solo or maybe has one neutered friend. Away from other fertile cats a stud don't have to be a pain. Often isn't.

I wouldn't place a stud with a co-owner who's just desperate for a free pedigree cat. I make sure they know what they're getting themselves into and yes, they have to endure a little bit more (mostly verbal nights) than if the cat would've been neutered but that's kind of why they get the cat for free. can assure you that "all" (they're not that many) co-owners have been very pleased with their deals.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Wow, cheapskates are going to be bombarding breeders for a "free" pedigree tom cat to stink their homes out


That's very unusual even here in Sweden were co-ownership is very common. And of course spraying isn't acceptable. If the stud starts to spray he's neutered.

My current stud lives with a co-owner and he doesn't spray.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> I can assure you that "all" (they're not that many) co-owners have been very pleased with their deals.


Purely out of interest, how do the owners cope with the stink in the home from the litter tray ... because I know from experience the trays STINK the house out. I once had an entire tom in my home as rescue, had been hit by a car and could not be put in cattery or neutered immediately and my house HUMMED, you could smell him as you walked in front door  And that was with his tray cleaned after every wee 

I presume the cats you speak of did go to live as indoor house pets


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Wow, cheapskates are going to be bombarding breeders for a "free" pedigree tom cat to stink their homes out


How are those cheapskates even going to know the system exists? I'd envisage it being far more the sort of thing where I get a kitten buyer coming back wanting a second kitten. Someone I already have a good relationship with and trust.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Purely out of interest, how do the owners cope with the stink in the home from the litter tray ... because I know from experience the trays STINK the house out. I once had an entire tom in my home as rescue, had been hit by a car and could not be put in cattery or neutered immediately and my house HUMMED, you could smell him as you walked in front door  And that was with his tray cleaned after every wee
> 
> I presume the cats you speak of did go to live as indoor house pets


By choosing litter carefully and changing it very often. Not just cleaning, but throwing away the litter, cleaning the tray and put new litter in it. My experience is that silica crystals are very effective on the scent from studs. How much they smell is also individual. I once had a stud who didn't smell at all (yes, he was very fertile). He used the paper pellets just like the other cats, no problems. But the smellier once I'd say need silica crystals.

It works very well.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The more I think of this idea the more I do like it. I've thought for a while that the kindest way to organise a stud is to let him sire a couple of litters and then neuter and rehome while still quite young. Problem for me is that I have such a bond with my boy that I know it would be so difficult for me to keep one for a year or so knowing I'd be letting him go. This would be a perfect solution. The boy is in his forever home from 13 weeks just like the rest of a litter and lives the pampered life all cats deserve. I could live with that.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> By choosing litter carefully and changing it very often. Not just cleaning, but throwing away the litter, cleaning the tray and put new litter in it. My experience is that silica crystals are very effective on the scent from studs. How much they smell is also individual. I once had a stud who didn't smell at all (yes, he was very fertile). He used the paper pellets just like the other cats, no problems. But the smellier once I'd say need silica crystals.
> 
> It works very well.


Then I can only presume that pedigree tom cat urine is quite different to that of moggies


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> How are those cheapskates even going to know the system exists? I'd envisage it being far more the sort of thing where I get a kitten buyer coming back wanting a second kitten. Someone I already have a good relationship with and trust.


You're quite right. Most of the time it's "old" kitten buyers that become co-owners. Or someone you've approved for buying a kitten but instead you offer them co-ownership. It's usually not advertised and of course we're as picky with co-owners as we are with the regular kitten buyer.

Last time I actuarally did advertise for co-owners and I had no funky e-mails or phone calls from people just wanting a cat for free. It was basically people who 1) already had one or two neutered cats of the same breed and they wanted to add another cat to the family, maybe show 2) people who had done a lot of research on the breed and were looking for a kitten to buy, but cuoldn't find one. There weren't any Devon kittens for sale nearby at that time.

I'd imagine it could be different somewhere else. In Sweden we've had systems for co-ownership with dogs, horses and cats... forever. People generally knows that it's not just a free animal. People know it's a huge responsibility and wth cats... they know you have to tolerate a bit more from a stud that from a neutered pet.

Many breeders in Sweden start up as co-owners (mostly for a female though). It's a great way to learn about breeding. You get to "taste it" before you go all in.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Then I can only presume that pedigree tom cat urine is quite different to that of moggies


I wouldn't know about that. I've never kept a fertile moggie. Only pedigrees. Except from the litter, the food also makes a huge difference. Even on the urine. My cats are raw fed and normally it doesn't smell from the litter tray. That might be a contributing factor to my "smell free" studs.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'd imagine it could be different somewhere else


Maybe but it doesn't mean 'new' ideas can't be considered. I can think back to a couple of real stunners I've bred who went as pets because I'm very wary of letting any boy go for stud and them being sold on or kept in less than ideal conditions. This system would be the best of both worlds for a softie like me.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Myanimalmadhouse said:


> Thats fair enough, its the people who still expect £3/4/500 quid for them - even saw one the other day who wanted £650 and the poor cat wouldn't even be neutered!!!!


Well that presumably was being sold on the active?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I once had an entire tom in my home as rescue, had been hit by a car and could not be put in cattery or neutered immediately and my house HUMMED, you could smell him as you walked in front door  And that was with his tray cleaned after every wee


I slept with one on my bed for several years.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I *once* had an entire tom in my home as rescue


I once had a cat that would only eat dried food
I once had an entire queen who sprayed everywhere when in call
I once kept a cat for breeding and it turned out not to be as good as I'd hoped
I once had a rescue kitten who took months to litter train properly


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> I once had a cat that would only eat dried food
> I once had an entire queen who sprayed everywhere when in call
> I once kept a cat for breeding and it turned out not to be as good as I'd hoped
> I once had a rescue kitten who took months to litter train properly


And I must have looked after hundreds ... or so it feels ... in a cattery situation... nobody in their right mind volunteers to foster an entire tom ... the poor little guy I mentioned needed almost 24 hour care as his jaw was broken and fractured pelvis .... hit by car. That's why he was in my home ... as a one off 

They all stunk to high heavens bless them until castrated. Maybe some breeders don't mind or notice the smell though.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Maybe some breeders don't mind or notice the smell though


Well that's probably true though hardly confined to breeders. I've gone into some pet owners homes (not just cats) where I've gagged on entry. I've also visited houses with no animals where I've refused tea or coffee because the place stank and I wouldn't have risked using the crockery. *Most* of the breeders I know are obssessive about ensuring the house doesn't smell of cat.


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

I think all studs are different. My first stud boy never sprayed, his litter tray was no worse that any of the others and the only reason he lived outside was because he humped everything in sight, including our neutered boys. We neutered him and found him a home with an older couple and he has done brilliantly.

Our 2nd stud boy sprays but not all the time and his litter tray isn't too bad at all. He lives outside too for obvious reason but I am hoping that once he is neutered he will calm down and be able to live as an only cat in a pet home.

Our current boy only sprays when our girls are in call and he lived indoors until he was about 9 months old, when he started to mature. His litter tray is absolutely fine though and he doesn't smell at all.

I guess what I am trying to say is that every cat and every situation is different and I don't think there is any one rule for what works and what doesn't. Lots of breeders that I know have their boys inside and just put up with the extra smell, if there is any and then lots of breeders have their boys outside. I think as long as they have plenty of space and lots of company then not a problem. I only ever let my studs live the stud life for up to 2 years and then I let them go as pets as I think they have done a fab job and deserve a lovely pet home for the rest of their life.

Unfortunately, in most cases, having a neutered ex-stud boy just doesn't work out if you still have entire queens as they have been a stud boy and therefore think they still need to perform the duties a lot of the time. This is why I would always suggest they go to only cat homes.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> And I must have looked after hundreds ... or so it feels ... in a cattery situation... nobody in their right mind volunteers to foster an entire tom ... the poor little guy I mentioned needed almost 24 hour care as his jaw was broken and fractured pelvis .... hit by car. That's why he was in my home ... as a one off
> 
> They all stunk to high heavens bless them until castrated. Maybe some breeders don't mind or notice the smell though.


I'd imagine it's two very different things to bring in an entire tom from the streets and to raise a kitten indoors and keep him as a stud in a regular home enviroment with no or only a few other cats. The entire tom from the streets has probably developed a more territorial behavior (which probably would affect the smell of his urine) than a male that's never had to protect his territory from other toms.

An entire tom outdoors will not only breed, he'll fight and mark his territory. An entire cat held in optimum conditions indoors never fight and don't have to mark territory since he doesn't have any rivals. They probably don't develop as strong urine as the entire tom outside.

I absolutely mind the smell and I'm not making it up when I say my home doesn't smell. Not even with studs. Nor does it smell at my studs co-owners place.

A covered litter tray, silica crystals, raw food and a calm enviroment without rivals from kittenhood. That's a great recipe. Some studs probably will smell awful no matter how you do, but then you neuter them.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Interesting link here from a pretty reputable source, no mention of a stud cats urine being less offensive mind you, rather they mention it's pungency 

But if some breeders say otherwise ... that is there experiece of course 

Keeping a stud cat

Would I be right ... having read article that queens go to the stud cat? If so, how would/could that work if a breeder kept her stud cat at it's "pet" home?

The person with the "pet - stud - cat - that - would - one - day - be -theirs" would have to be in a position to accommodate and keep safe an in season queen surely? As we see on here, few pet owners are capable of doing this ... I certainly wouldn't like to try!


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

I haven't seen mention on here of people saying that they let their stud boys go to a house where they will be a pet but have to carry on stud duties in the mean time? Any cats that I rehome are neutered before they leave us and have at least 6-8 weeks of recovery time here before they are allowed to go anyway.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cooniemum said:


> I haven't seen mention on here of people saying that they let their stud boys go to a house where they will be a pet but have to carry on stud duties in the mean time? Any cats that I rehome are neutered before they leave us and have at least 6-8 weeks of recovery time here before they are allowed to go anyway.


Read through Cerridwen's posts


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

I thought co-owned was relating to where to breeder share a stud boy...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cooniemum said:


> I thought co-owned was relating to where to breeder share a stud boy...


Not when ... to quote Cerridwen

"Last time I actuarally did advertise for co-owners and I had no funky e-mails or phone calls from people just wanting a cat for free. It was basically people who 1) already had one or two neutered cats of the same breed and they wanted to add another cat to the family, maybe show 2) people who had done a lot of research on the breed and were looking for a kitten to buy, but cuoldn't find one. There weren't any Devon kittens for sale nearby at that time."


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Cooniemum said:


> I thought co-owned was relating to where to breeder share a stud boy...


I believe Cerridwen lives in Sweden and the idea of co-ownership there is perhaps different to ours. I was under the impression too that co-ownership was where two breeders share a stud.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> I believe Cerridwen lives in Sweden and the idea of co-ownership there is perhaps different to ours. I was under the impression too that co-ownership was where two breeders share a stud.


Yes it's confusing ...

There they seem (or some do) to simply advertise for someone willing to look after their stud cat for them, then when they no longer want to use him ... neuter and give him on a permanent basis to the ... not sure what to call them ... cat sitter... or as they call it co owner.

Maybe it happens here to, a couple of breeders on this thread in the UK seem to like the idea, so who knows


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm sure all studs are different but, honestly, going by the experience with the four I've kept (one of which is still my current stud) I really don't think I could tolerate the urine smell (even if they didn't spray around the house) from the tray in my home. Admittedly, one of those boy's urine hardly smelt at all unless you choose to stick your nose almost directly into the tray.

The other three were/are very pungent indeed. Almost every breeder I know whose outside stud quarters I've been into, well, your nose tells you a stud is housed there long before you even see him  And I'm talking breeders who are very particular with cleanliness. Thinking back to one of them, her stud smelled SO bad the odour would burn the back of your throat, and that was out in the fresh air


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I thought co-owned was relating to where to breeder share a stud boy...


Well it can mean anything two (or more) people want it to mean. Two breeders sharing the expense and use of a stud is an accepted model here in the UK.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm sure all studs are different but, honestly, going by the experience with the four I've kept (one of which is still my current stud) I really don't think I could tolerate the urine smell (even if they didn't spray around the house) from the tray in my home. Admittedly, one of those boy's urine hardly smelt at all unless you choose to stick your nose almost directly into the tray.
> 
> The other three were/are very pungent indeed. Almost every breeder I know whose outside stud quarters I've been into, well, your nose tells you a stud is housed there long before you even see him  And I'm talking breeders who are very particular with cleanliness. Thinking back to one of them, her stud smelled SO bad the odour would burn the back of your throat, and that was out in the fresh air


Pleased to read this, thought I must be hypersensitive to the smell, when everyone else seemed to think Toms didn't have a "particular" smell 

I remember taking a young adult tom cat to vets for a castrate, had an owner, but couldn't be relied to take him in ... Anyway, the smell in our car  you could smell him ... for weeks ... nearly ended in divorce


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There they seem (or some do) to simply advertise for someone willing to look after their stud cat for them, then when they no longer want to use him ... neuter and give him on a permanent basis to the ... not sure what to call them ... cat sitter... or as they call it co owner


When breeders neuter and rehome any cat then co ownership is not the issue. Nobody is 'cat sitting' in that situation, ownership of the cat transfers completely. The nearest thing I can think of to cat sitting as you put it is the RSPCA where you never do take proper ownership of any animal you get from them but are the equivalent of a permanent foster home.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> When breeders neuter and rehome any cat then co ownership is not the issue. Nobody is 'cat sitting' in that situation, ownership of the cat transfers completely. The nearest thing I can think of to cat sitting as you put it is the RSPCA where you never do take proper ownership of any animal you get from them but are the equivalent of a permanent foster home.


I was referring to those that place entire cat in "pet home" to be used as stud when needed. Something you thought sounded good I think? Not sure what you could call "that"


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Pleased to read this, thought I must be hypersensitive to the smell, when everyone else seemed to think Toms didn't have a "particular" smell
> 
> I remember taking a young adult tom cat to vets for a castrate, had an owner, but couldn't be relied to take him in ... Anyway, the smell in our car  you could smell him ... for weeks ... nearly ended in divorce


I'm wondering if the co-ownership idea, where someone has a young stud who doesn't live with entire females, possibly makes a difference. Meaning that, perhaps, with the combination of the two - young and not in the presence of calling queens - the male isn't sufficiently hormonal to pong too much  I suppose that might be do'able with some studs.

Must say Cerridwen's co-ownership sounds like a very good idea and doubtless I shouldn't knock an idea without having never tried it, it's just that in my experience more (even still young) males are very smelly rather than are not.

It seems to be very common practice in some other European countries for studs to be kept indoors where the breeder uses stud pants. I'm sure this must work for them as its long standing practice in those countries... I just can't personally imagine doing that


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Good heavens just had a look online out of interest ... shocked at how many breeders are selling their cats as "stud cats" ... and the price


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

So ... can anyone who thinks it a good idea for a breeder to keep their or a stud cat in a "pet" home co -owned ... What happens when it's time their queen to stay with the stud? How would or could that work in a home environment


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Interesting link here from a pretty reputable source, no mention of a stud cats urine being less offensive mind you, rather they mention it's pungency
> 
> But if some breeders say otherwise ... that is there experiece of course
> 
> ...


I would absolutely not have the co-owners being responsible for housing queens when it's time for breeding. When it's time for breeding I bring home the stud to my place. If any of my breeders friends want to breed with him, they bring him to their place.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> I would absolutely not have the co-owners being responsible for housing queens when it's time for breeding. When it's time for breeding I bring home the stud to my place. If any of my breeders friends want to breed with him, they bring him to their place.


Gosh that must be unsettling for the tom if he is used regularly? I would have thought it would have been difficult for "co-owner" having their pet taken away for days too ... guess getting a free cat comes at a price, not just for owner but tom.

Seems a strange set up to me I am afraid, but then I am just a pet owner 
But thank you for explanation.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Cooniemum said:


> I thought co-owned was relating to where to breeder share a stud boy...


I'm usint the term co-owner since there's no English word for it. In Sweden it's called "fodervärd". The principle is that the breeder is the legal owner of the cat and owns the breeding and showing rights. Pays all the costs involved with breeding (including insurance, vaccinations, regular health checks, deworming and so on). Fodervärden (the co-owner) pays for food and litter and when the cat is done in breeding the co-owner becomes the legal owner of the cat. The breeder is signed off completely.

If you can find a better term than co-owner I'm willing to use it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It seems to be very common practice in some other European countries for studs to be kept indoors


I suspect because the 'European' model (as I tend to refer to it) is the one where a boy sires only a couple of litters and is then neutered and rehomed. It's not that unusual in the UK for a prospective stud boy to be kept as a house cat unless and until he becomes either active or a sprayer. Many stud boys have their first experience(s) of mating in the house rather than in specialist stud quarters.

It isn't so weird when you consider that most pet kittens are not neutered before 6 months and some as late as nine months so you're not exactly talking of a lifetime living with the rampant, stinking tomcat that people are picturing.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Gosh that must be unsettling for the tom if he is used regularly? I would have thought it would have been difficult for "co-owner" having their pet taken away for days too ... guess getting a free cat comes at a price, not just for owner but tom.
> 
> Seems a strange set up to me I am afraid, but then I am just a pet owner
> But thank you for explanation.


No, it's usually not very unsettling at all. The studs I've brought home have had no problems adjusting.

My co-owners can use me as a "cat sitter" if they want to get away (and they've all done it) so they don't think it's a problem to leave the cat at my place. I know them, they know me, I know the cat... it's not a problem. We help each other out. Last month my studs' co-owners had to go away and they couldn't bring him so instead they left him at my place.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> so you're not exactly talking of a lifetime living with the rampant, stinking tomcat that people are picturing.


Just 20 minutes in the car was enough for me and several weeks in the house SEEMED like a lifetime *Phew* hmy: :laugh:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Gosh that must be unsettling for the tom if he is used regularly?


The whole point of this model would be to only use him once or twice and then let him live out his life as a pampered neuter in the loving home he already knows.

I completely share your horror at the thought of randomly shipping a cat around the country to perform with queens - though it is done in the states where stud cats are freighted by air unaccompanied.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> I completely share your horror at the thought of randomly shipping a cat around the country to perform with queens - though it is done in the states where stud cats are freighted by air unaccompanied.


I didn't know that, how cruel


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> No, it's usually not very unsettling at all. The studs I've brought home have had no problems adjusting.


Agree. I have had a very happy arrangement with another breeder where she borrowed one of my boys over the winter. It was almost a lifesaver for me as I got very badly let down by a friend who was supposed to be putting electricity into that boy's pen (last winter he lived indoors but this year I had three boys and there was no way more than one could have been indoors, and only one pen was adequate). Meanwhile someone who brought her girl to stud had the girl go off call by the next day, she had excellent accommodation for a boy but had no boy, it suited us both for her simply to borrow him. Without that, I'd have had to pay boarding cattery fees for some specialist place that would take entire males, and she would have been going all round the country trying to find a place where her girl would settle long enough to be mated. I picked my boy up from her when I wanted to show him, she had two or three litters from him, he had a great deal of attention and luxury accommodation, it worked so well that I let her borrow him again a few weeks ago and he's still there (it suits us both, I have no girls expected to call, she has, and it means my kittens could get some fresh air and more space to play, in the beautiful weather we've been having).

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> I completely share your horror at the thought of randomly shipping a cat around the country to perform with queens - though it is done in the states where stud cats are freighted by air unaccompanied.


Gosh, I wouldn't fancy that much. Still I suppose with the huge distances involved over there maybe there's not many options.

Liz


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> The whole point of this model would be to only use him once or twice and then let him live out his life as a pampered neuter in the loving home he already knows.


Yes, usually you have a contract on maybe 3 litters. When the stud has sired three litters the contract has been fulfilled and he belongs to the co-owner.

But the breeder and the co-owner decide together what's appropriate. I'm glad if I get one litter from my stud.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

havoc said:


> The whole point of this model would be to only use him once or twice and then let him live out his life as a pampered neuter in the loving home he already knows.
> 
> I completely share your horror at the thought of randomly shipping a cat around the country to perform with queens - though it is done in the states where stud cats are freighted by air unaccompanied.





Cerridwen said:


> Yes, usually you have a contract on maybe 3 litters. When the stud has sired three litters the contract has been fulfilled and he belongs to the co-owner.
> 
> But the breeder and the co-owner decide together what's appropriate. I'm glad if I get one litter from my stud.


Agreed, this is how I pictured the arrangement.

I know some studs continue "working" for a number of years (and in some cases all of their lives!) I don't believe those circumstances would be at all suitable for a co-ownership situation such as Cerridwen is describing.

But in circumstances where the stud is only to sire a couple of litters it seems like a very interesting idea. Surely it's better for the boy to already be in his forever home from 13 weeks and then make the occasional visit, than to be in one home for 12-18 months and then be rehomed to a stranger when he is neutered.

It's not an arrangement I would enter into with someone I don't know, but perhaps with a trusted friend or a family member.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But in circumstances where the stud is only to sire a couple of litters it seems like a very interesting idea


It is to me because I've been considering what is the best and kindest model for a stud for some time now. The best I'd come up with was keeping a boy myself and then rehoming him at around the 12 month mark. This does seem a better model for the short term aims of a breeder and the long term health and happiness of the cat.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Ah so it's not as it is with dog breeders where stud animals are chosen which are not only health tested, but have proved themselves as being good examples on the show circuit? Aren't the "Co-pet- owned" stud cats shown at all?

I would have thought it was a similar thing? Only cats which had achieved champion status or good show results would be desirable stud cats? With good breeders at least


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Ah so it's not as it is with dog breeders where stud animals are chosen which are not only health tested, but have proved themselves as being good examples on the show circuit? Aren't the "Co-pet- owned" stud cats shown at all?
> 
> I would have thought it was a similar thing? Only cats which had achieved champion status or good show results would be desirable stud cats? With good breeders at least


I've been told that just because a cat isn't perfect doesn't mean they won't be good for breeding, something about correcting faults with one by choosing the best suited stud/queen but I could be talking out my bum.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I've been told that just because a cat isn't perfect doesn't mean they won't be good for breeding, something about correcting faults with one by choosing the best suited stud/queen but I could be talking out my bum.


I think with dogs, you would seek a stud that complimented your bitch, but that stud would also be an very good example of his breed and have a show record. Obviously the back yarders don't worry about things like this though.

I had presumed it would be the same with cats, you would seek the best possible "match" for your queen, not simply a male kitten you had bred or bought in with that specific idea in mind


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I think with dogs, you would seek a stud that complimented your bitch, but that stud would also be an very good example of his breed and have a show record. Obviously the back yarders don't worry about things like this though.
> 
> I had presumed it would be the same with cats, you would seek the best possible "match" for your queen, not simply a male kitten you had bred or bought in with that specific idea in mind


Not a breeder so don't know  Like I said I think they're chosen on good qualities they have that needn't be 'perfect' as the other cat would offset it for the kittens. That's how I understood it but someone will be along to correct me soon if needed


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Not a breeder so don't know  Like I said I think they're chosen on good qualities they have that needn't be 'perfect' as the other cat would offset it for the kittens. That's how I understood it but someone will be along to correct me soon if needed


Yes you live and learn and it will be interesting to find out 

Seems odd that a kitten is selected as a stud while a young kitten and placed in "pet home" seemingly never shown, used for a few litters and signed over.

I don't see something like this happening with reputable dog breeders somehow


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Yes you live and learn and it will be interesting to find out
> 
> Seems odd that a kitten is selected as a stud while a young kitten and placed in "pet home" seemingly never shown, used for a few litters and signed over.
> 
> I don't see something like this happening with reputable dog breeders somehow


With no reply on this from Cerridwen we don't know if the cats are shown at all. It doesn't happen like this in the UK and I think most stud cats have good show backgrounds. The one I use certainly has.
I know nothing about dogs what-so-ever but can I ask are only show dogs ever bred from? Also is it true that to show a dog it has to be entire? Unlike in the cat showing world where there are show neuters.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> With no reply on this from Cerridwen we don't know if the cats are shown at all. It doesn't happen like this in the UK and I think most stud cats have good show backgrounds. The one I use certainly has.
> I know nothing about dogs what-so-ever but can I ask are only show dogs ever bred from? Also is it true that to show a dog it has to be entire? Unlike in the cat showing world where there are show neuters.


I am not a dog breeder but I think you'll find few reputable breeders that will use a dog that has not got a show background ... Plenty iffy ones will use anything of course.

I think I am right in saying males need to be entire. I think you can show bitches with permission?


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I think she said that the breeder has show rights aswell as the breeding rights, basically the pet owner gets everything free but the food/toys and the breeder takes care of the health testing, health maintenance, breeding and showing. It does say in one of her posts somewhere about showing, just not in detail


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

My late Burmese girl was once a breeding queen. The breeder gave her to me for free when she was aged three and a half and was retired from breeding. I think the breed clubs rescue also help with the rehoming of retired breeding queens and studs. Some breeders do keep them as neutered pets once they reach the end of their breeding life. I know my friend Marcia keeps all her cats once breeding comes to an end but she isn't someone who has a lot of litters each year so whilst she does have a lot of cats, roughly about twelve, she can afford to keep what she has. I think out of twelve cats, she has only 4 for breeding.

Edited to add, when my current cats pass away, I won't be getting another kitten because of my age, it is my intention to get one moggie rescue and a Birman rescue, probably an ex-stud cat.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I think she said that the breeder has show rights aswell as the breeding rights, basically the pet owner gets everything free but the food/toys and the breeder takes care of the health testing, health maintenance, breeding and showing. It does say in one of her posts somewhere about showing, just not in detail


Cat's mustn't know if they are coming or going :eek6: As a pet owner it's easy to forget how some breeders view their cats I guess.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I would have thought it was a similar thing? Only cats which had achieved champion status or good show results would be desirable stud cats?


A good example will become a champion before it reaches sexual maturity so it's quite normal for a stud to end its show career in order to start siring kittens. Owners can and do go on showing their working studs of course but it can become quite complicated doing both.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> A good example will become a champion before it reaches sexual maturity so it's quite normal for a stud to end its show career in order to start siring kittens. Owners can and do go on showing their working studs of course but it can become quite complicated doing both.


As difficult as it is to show breeding queens too


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

havoc said:


> A good example will become a champion before it reaches sexual maturity so it's quite normal for a stud to end its show career in order to start siring kittens. Owners can and do go on showing their working studs of course but it can become quite complicated doing both.


Personally, I have seen some fantastic BSH studs who were made up to Champion by the time they were a year old. I've also seen some brilliant boys who don't have show histories.

Lots of rosettes does not necessarily equal a perfect stud in my opinion. I'd rather choose a boy for his health, type and for aspects that would compliment my queen than for the number of rosettes he has. Unfortunately cat showing does not take health and history into account like it might do in dogs.

And as a cat show enthusiast and hobby breeder, I find the implication that I love or care for my cats less than the average pet owner somewhat offensive...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> Personally, I have seen some fantastic BSH studs who were made up to Champion by the time they were a year old. I've also seen some brilliant boys who don't have show histories.
> 
> Lots of rosettes does not necessarily equal a perfect stud in my opinion. I'd rather choose a boy for his health, type and for aspects that would compliment my queen than for the number of rosettes he has. Unfortunately cat showing does not take health and history into account like it might do in dogs.
> 
> And as a cat show enthusiast and hobby breeder, I find the implication that I love or care for my cats less than the average pet owner somewhat offensive...


With Siamese often the show types are not what the average person wants. I try to breed for health and temperament and as I cannot show from Mai Tai or her progeny then show history is not so important. I think the fact that the stud I use has Imperial Grand Championship status is secondary to the fact that I love his look and he has the most fabulous, laid back temperament.
My new girl is from show lines with both parents of Championship status and while her breeder doesn't think that she has what it takes to do extremely well on the show bench, she does think she is a lovely example to breed from.
And my girls too are loved and pampered pets first and foremost.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Ah so it's not as it is with dog breeders where stud animals are chosen which are not only health tested, but have proved themselves as being good examples on the show circuit? Aren't the "Co-pet- owned" stud cats shown at all?
> 
> I would have thought it was a similar thing? Only cats which had achieved champion status or good show results would be desirable stud cats? With good breeders at least


Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. I've chosen not to show mine since I don't want to risk him start spraying. Spraying means neutering and since he hasn't produced any kittens yet neutering isn't a very appealing thought.

He'll go through all the appropriate health tests and he's well typed. I don't need a title to tell me if a Devon has a good type or not.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I think with dogs, you would seek a stud that complimented your bitch, but that stud would also be an very good example of his breed and have a show record. Obviously the back yarders don't worry about things like this though.
> 
> I had presumed it would be the same with cats, you would seek the best possible "match" for your queen, not simply a male kitten you had bred or bought in with that specific idea in mind


Of course you want a stud that match at least one of your queens. You'll never know if a kitten will turn out the way you want to or not, but wth experience you learn what to look for. You learn what different blood lines produce and you learn what your own cats produce. A show stopper doesn't have to complement every queen in the world. Finding matching breedng pairs is a skill you learn with experience. It's nothing any show title will tell you.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Yes you live and learn and it will be interesting to find out
> 
> Seems odd that a kitten is selected as a stud while a young kitten and placed in "pet home" seemingly never shown, used for a few litters and signed over.
> 
> I don't see something like this happening with reputable dog breeders somehow


It happens with dog breeders but their dogs are usually with co-owners on longer contracts. For about 5 years. This is for obvious reasons usually not possible with studs since they usually a lot more annoying than a male dog. However I do know of an extreme case with a stud living with a co-owner for appr. 10 years (my oldest females' grandfather). He was shown and he never sprayed. These pearls are however hard to find. I wouldn't like to bind someone to that kind of comittment for 10 years either.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> With no reply on this from Cerridwen we don't know if the cats are shown at all. It doesn't happen like this in the UK and I think most stud cats have good show backgrounds. The one I use certainly has.
> I know nothing about dogs what-so-ever but can I ask are only show dogs ever bred from? Also is it true that to show a dog it has to be entire? Unlike in the cat showing world where there are show neuters.


reputable breeders will mostly only use dogs who have done well at shows, i do know of exceptions where the dog hasnt been shown much usually because he dosent enjoy the show scene but these animals are excellent examples of the breed and belong to breeders who 'know' the breed.

You can show a neutered animal if its been done on medical grounds, but you have to have a letter from the vet i believe


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> reputable breeders will mostly only use dogs who have done well at shows, i do know of exceptions where the dog hasnt been shown much usually because he dosent enjoy the show scene but these animals are excellent examples of the breed and belong to breeders who 'know' the breed.
> 
> You can show a neutered animal if its been done on medical grounds, but you have to have a letter from the vet i believe


Very different worlds the showing of cats and dogs. And the breeding too to some extent I think.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> I wouldn't like to bind someone to that kind of comittment for 10 years either.


Only someone very desperate for free cat would put up with that :scared:


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> But then many breeders do not seem to view their cats (or dogs) as pets and companions. That is not to say all breeders are like this ... before anyone jumps down my throat
> ...


This doesn't bother me though, to be honest, because I don't think breeders can think the way most pet owners only do, if they did, they might have difficulty letting go of the kittens they breed and I say this from personal experience.

I once had the bright idea, after showing neuters for a while, that I would venture into breeding. Marcia sold me my first breeding queen. When old enough, I took my girl to an outside stud and she conceived on first mating. The kittens were born without issue and I raised them following all procedures laid out by the GCCF. I found homes for two of my kittens, intended keeping one and needed to find a home for the fourth.

One week prior to letting my kittens go, I began to ache inside. I found myself wandering around ASDA in floods of tears. I would come home to find hubby sat with the kittens also in tears. He begged me not to let them go. I felt guilty because I had promised these two kittens to expectant pet owners and insisted, despite his and my pain, we had to honour the arrangement, even though I had not taken a deposit and we had nothing in writing. Right up to the very day I was to take the kittens to their new homes, I tried to convince myself that this was the right thing to do.

However, when the moment finally came for me to take the kittens, I just could not do it. I was too attached. I feel terrible for letting those two people down, but they can find new kittens from another breeder who could let their kittens go. As far as I was concerned, my kittens were irreplaceable for me. From that moment, I knew with absolute certainty that I am not cut out to be a breeder. I am a pet owner. My breeding queen and four kittens were all neutered and I have never even wanted to dip my toe into the breeding pool again nor I ever will.

For these reasons, I think it is wrong to judge breeders because they do not behave like pet owners. I do not think many of them could continue to breed if they thought like a pet owner does. I'm sure they love their cats or dogs but they need to retain a certain amount of detachment, otherwise, they could not let them go just as I couldn't. I take my hat off to them because without them, I would not have my beautiful Birmans.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I guess in a nutshell they simply aren't so sentimental


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I guess in a nutshell they simply aren't so sentimental


I don't think that's what she was implying at all. I'm sure the majority of breeders ache about letting ANY of the cats/kittens go!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I don't think that's what she was implying at all. I'm sure the majority of breeders ache about letting ANY of the cats/kittens go!


It's what I am implying 

I used to ache when I re-homed the rescue cats and kittens, couldn't go through it as part of a hobby, but maybe just too sentimental!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> Very different worlds the showing of cats and dogs. And the breeding too to some extent I think.


yes i agree, i had no idea how much of a difference there was till i started snooping on the cat section


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Only someone very desperate for free cat would put up with that :scared:


No, she liked showing. He was a good show cat and he didn't spray. You couldn't tell he was a stud other than by his looks.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Gratch said:


> I've been told that just because a cat isn't perfect doesn't mean they won't be good for breeding, something about correcting faults with one by choosing the best suited stud/queen but I could be talking out my bum.


Quite correct. It's very satisfying when you breed a ktiten that is better than either parent.

Liz


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I guess in a nutshell they simply aren't so sentimental


I don't like the word sentimental because it implies that emotion is unnecessarily excessive and people cannot help their emotions. I love my pets like they are my children. If I lose a pet, I feel like I have lost a part of myself. It is an expression of how deeply I love them. They are my family and the loss of one of my pets hurts just as much as if I had lost a human member of my family. This is because I am emotionally attached to my pets and I think a lot of pet owners are emotionally attached to their pets: the good ones anyway.

Breeders, I think, cannot afford to get so emotionally attached to an animal: not if they want to let them go. That is not to say they don't care or love animals. I believe they do care very deeply but they just cannot let themselves bond with a pet too deeply. Some people manage to do this and others, like myself, cannot.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Coming back and reading the rest of this thread, I think that co-ownership in the fashion which Cerridwen has described must be hugely helpful to perhaps a group of breeders working together and where there would otherwise be a problem of a very limited genepool.

But it wouldn't be for me for a couple of different reasons, the main one being I think there's real merit in using/keeping an older stud with a proven track record - both in himself and his offspring - of health and disease resistence, bearing in mind that a mature, older stud will have sired many more kittens in his 'career' than a young male. Working through the generations very quickly can, and often does, obscure problems which aren't apparent in the younger cat. Granted, this could equally be a unseen problem with a female but by and large, males will sire many more kittens in their breeding lifetime than a queen will produce kittens.

I'm also probably a bit of a control freak and would still (unfairly) consider the co-owned to be mine. I'd have a bit of a problem letting go on even small issues 

At times when I feel I've needed to introduce new blood lines I have brought in an unrelated (or mildly linebred) female or used an outside stud, then kept a male for a year or two to use in my own breeding programme. Yes, its gone against my preference for using an older stud but still the 'core' plan is to breed 'around' the mature male. But then I always have worked through the generations *very* slowly because I do not/cannot keep too many cats and only infrequently keep a kitten I have bred.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Breeders, I think, cannot afford to get so emotionally attached to an animal


I promise you we do, even more so in some ways but I do understand why a non-breeder would think we don't. Where we may differ is in our ability to distance our own emotions and needs from a decision to do what is best by a cat or kitten. This is a learned behaviour, I certainly wasn't born with it and there was a time as a pet owner I would have *never* been able to see one of my animals go to another home. I have now learned that I must always do what's necessary for the good of the cat.

Where kittens are concerned - well however much it hurts when they go to new homes I know they are going to a better place. Better because they get more individual attention than they could here, better because they have the chance to develop their wonderful individual characters, better because there are enough laps to go round. That's what I think my cats deserve and there's no way their kittens deserve any less.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Gratch said:


> I've been told that just because a cat isn't perfect doesn't mean they won't be good for breeding, something about correcting faults with one by choosing the best suited stud/queen but I could be talking out my bum.


This has always been my understanding. Breeding a Birman to a good standard is difficult. You can get two very good examples of the breed and have a litter of kittens full of faults. I was told to look at the fault in my cats and find a stud which corrects those faults and hopefully a mating will produce a litter of kittens with most faults corrected. Cats can be buggers!:tongue_smilie:


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

I have an entire stud and a queen... they both live indoors... i promise you my house does NOT smell of cat, nor does my boy spray!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

also... just because a cat is not shown or doesnt have titles doesnt mean he is not worth being bread from.... remember showing isnt about you or what u want... i could have an undercover grand champ in my house and if hes shy and i dont think he would like being shown then i wont show him.

also... not everyone wants to buy a kitten from a grand champ or champ or what ever!... they just want a cat, that they like, thats vert checked and whos parents are health tested... usually champion and grand champion sired kittens are more expensive! so if all those breeders simply want there kittens to go to a pet only home them why do they cost so much more?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

SOME breeders may charge more for kittens sired by well titled cats - others don't. I adore showing and my breeding aim is to breed myself my own show neuter as well as lovely healthy pets and show cats who are well typed.

My stud boy is a Gr Ch in straight shows by 18 months and now won 2 Imperials and 1 Reserve in 3 shows at that level and is not even 2 years old. He's a QGC with TICA and this season looks to be the Best of his Breed internationally and a Regional Winner from only 4 shows .....His variant son was Supreme Household Pet 2010.

His kittens are the same price this year as they were last year when he was a Ch and TICA Ch. People are drawn to him for his uber gentle and loving nature and so far this has passed to all his kittens. I look to cover my costs not wring every pound out of a kitten buyer. There is no guarantee his offspring will be show winners and I personally believe charging a premium linked to his success would imply some sort of 'promise' his kits would do as well which is not something I can foresee! 

As for the smell - he doesn't and doesn't spray at all - people are always surprised to learn he is a working stud. But all cats are different - I'm aware he is a cat of a lifetime in every way not least because I adore him with all my heart and soul and have done since laying eyes on him at 5 weeks. Breeders are just as sentimental as the next person for the most part - we are just good at putting on a brave face


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

its good to know that you dont charge extra for your studs sucess! when i occasionally have a nosy around at cats this seems to be the case tho... even when i was looking for a stud for my queen when i looked at champions and grand champs their stud fee seemed to be double that of a regular stud!

and like i said... considering these breeders want their kittens nutered and to be pet homes only i dont understand why they are charging more!

obviously this isnt a generalisation! just my experience


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

However on the flip side I personally believe a stud should be as close to the standard as possible as potentially they can sire a fair number of kittens. I see a good number of studs (normally the cheaper unshown ones) who really IMO are pet quality only.......... I personally believe you do get what you pay for.... My boy however is closed stud. I don't have the time to devote to visiting queens as well as my own cats nor I feel, the necessary experience.


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