# Spikes on neighbours fence



## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi All

My very unpleasant neighbour has just put spikes on his fence to stop my cat going over, now I understand that some people do not want other peoples cats in their gardens, but is there really any need to go this far. Worried that Sam my rescue cat will hurt himself!! Anybody else have this problem!!


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)




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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

This is Sammy, see above.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

What type of spikes ? If they are the plastic strip sort then they won't hurt the cat. I have also seen cats go across these with no issues. If they arte the pigeon spikes then usually cats negotiate these OK.

To be honest if your neighbour doesn't want your cat in their garden you should be doing everything you can to keep him out of there. It's not fair otherwise. Perhaps put some cat proofing on your side of the fence to stop him jumping over that side. It will also mean he can't access the spikes and show your neighbour you are taking action yourself to be considerate.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Thank you for your reply, it's good to know that he won't hurt himself, yes, they are the plastic strip type, didn't know that such a thing existed in the 30 years that I have had cats, not a problem before, they are also an eyesore, I would have thought the first port of call would be to speak to me, had no idea it was an issue, I could put up cat proofing this side, Sam can go over other ways which are completely out of my control!! and my neighbours for that matter! Ideally I would prefer he stayed away! I am a considerate person but cats being cats will go where they please as you are probably aware.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Trixie1 
It could be he has other cats not just yours coming into his garden. As long as they are generally safe with cats as kittih said it should be ok.
I understand from seeing others posts, not all gardens cat proof easily or fully.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Agree I would try to cat-proof a section; I doubt they would put plastic spikes (tho' they may) as plastic would be a waste of money surely? The photo is lovely by the way! he's a gorgeous boy.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

I think the important thing is to show willing on your side of the fence. If you cat proof the side between you and him then fair enough your cat and others might get over elsewhere but you are showing you are doing the best you can in your property.

The strips might be an eyesore to you but the issues he is having with cats might be equally upsetting if not more so to him.

Not everyone can deal with confrontation and sometimes they will prefer to try a solution first without speaking to the people concerned. Whose fence is it? If it is his he is perfectly entitled to put what he likes on it as long as it doesn't overhand your garden. If it is yours than you can always approach him as say that instead of spikes you are happy to put cat proofing your side.

Another option is to grow plants up your side of the fence which discourage your cat from climbing it.

Although cats have free roam if they are upsetting the neighbours then I think it is best for neighbourly relations that us cat owners do what we can to prevent the nuisance.

For example I make sure there is always a nice secluded easily to dig patch in my garden for my cats to toilet in. I have planted climbers / hard to climb through plants on my neighbours side who isn't keen on cats and have made a really accessible route out of my garden which leads to an area my cat likes to frequent (woods) at the bottom so they have little need to go next door.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Calvine said:


> Agree I would try to cat-proof a section; I doubt they would put plastic spikes (tho' they may) as plastic would be a waste of money surely? The photo is lovely by the way! he's a gorgeous boy.


The strips are a very tough plastic, Thank you, Sam is very special to me, he was previously abandoned by his owner and lived on the streets for a couple of years so I am very protective over him and wouldn't want him to get hurt, he's had enough of that in his past.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I thought they were illegal on private property and could only be used on public buildings to deter pigeons?


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

kittih said:


> I think the important thing is to show willing on your side of the fence. If you cat proof the side between you and him then fair enough your cat and others might get over elsewhere but you are showing you are doing the best you can in your property.
> 
> The strips might be an eyesore to you but the issues he is having with cats might be equally upsetting if not more so to him.
> 
> ...


It's a new fence that he has put up located at the end of my garden on his side, He live's in the in the next street and his garden backs onto mine. Yes, I understand that he can put what he likes on it , I only wish he had spoken to me first as I may have been able to do something my end that we were both happy with , not just him! I will look into cat proofing my fence but he won't know when it's up as he wont see it. There are 3 other fences that do not belong to me that Sam can go over but I can't touch. My main objective here is to keep Sam safe and well. he has area's he likes to go to but not as lucky to have woods at the bottom.

Thanks for your advice, it's been a great help.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Are they this sort of thing ? I have seen cats learn to walk each side of the spikes.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

yes, these are the one's , quite sharp when i pressed down on one!!


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

If it's the above type it won't hurt a cat. It will make the neighbour feel better (until he realises it doesn't work. If there are multiple cats in your area I suspect he may well have put it along all his fencing. I suspect he will be disappointed to discover it will make no difference to keeping cats out.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> I thought they were illegal on private property and could only be used on public buildings to deter pigeons?


unfortunately, they are not illegal, you can buy from Amazon they are called "cat repeller fence spikes" speaks for itself!!


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Trixie1 said:


> yes, these are the one's , quite sharp when i pressed down on one!!


Each spike is quite sharp - they are to deter humans. The cats will treat them just like they treat pointy vegetation they come across which is to delicately pick their way across or avoid. If they land on then then their fur will protect them just as it does other spiky veg.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

He may have felt that as he was the one with the problem, it was up to him to do something to deal with it - it doesn't necessarily mean he is trying to be awkward.

I would approach it by saying you noticed he is trying to keep cats out and you would like to help prevent your cat bothering him and then you can suggest the cat proofing, plants or whatever. Hopefully, approaching it this way will defuse any tension or anxiety.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Trixie1 said:


> unfortunately, they are not illegal, you can buy from Amazon they are called "cat repeller fence spikes" speaks for itself!!


I think the marketing might be more optimistic than reality.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Think you might be right, time will tell, thanks again for your help


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## LJC675 (Apr 24, 2017)

One panel of my garden fence has these on, not sure why, They do not bother Kalex and Suter, they have plenty of other panels they can jump over but I have also seen both of them walk straight across the spikey panel to walk along the whole fence, they go a bit carefully but it doesn't bother them enough the jump down and then up again after the offending panel.

They won't do any damage, just may deter slightly (but I doubt it).


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Trixie1 said:


> Think you might be right, time will tell, thanks again for your help


BTW, I notice you called your neighbour 'unpleasant' - have you had any negative incidents before, or are you assuming this because of his actions regarding the fence? I'm just thinking that sometimes people can come across as unpleasant when they are actually nervous, fearful or socially awkward. If he is frightened of/allergic to cats for example, he may seem aggressive or confrontational through anxiety. Obviously you will be the best judge of this, but it might be worth giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that any unpleasantness is due to him not handling a stressful situation very well, rather than an intended insult/threat toward you or your cat.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

CuddleMonster said:


> He may have felt that as he was the one with the problem, it was up to him to do something to deal with it - it doesn't necessarily mean he is trying to be awkward.
> 
> I would approach it by saying you noticed he is trying to keep cats out and you would like to help prevent your cat bothering him and then you can suggest the cat proofing, plants or whatever. Hopefully, approaching it this way will defuse any tension or anxiety.


He lives in the next street, my garden backs onto the back of his, I will try cat proofing my bit, really do not want to upset people so will discourage Sam when I see him there. but as far as I'm aware, this person can be quite difficult as other neighbours have had issues with him over other things!


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

CuddleMonster said:


> BTW, I notice you called your neighbour 'unpleasant' - have you had any negative incidents before, or are you assuming this because of his actions regarding the fence? I'm just thinking that sometimes people can come across as unpleasant when they are actually nervous, fearful or socially awkward. If he is frightened of/allergic to cats for example, he may seem aggressive or confrontational through anxiety. Obviously you will be the best judge of this, but it might be worth giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that any unpleasantness is due to him not handling a stressful situation very well, rather than an intended insult/threat toward you or your cat.


Your right! I have come to this conclusion because of his actions!! the spikes are repulsive to me they are to deter birds as well as cats! But I am also aware that he has caused issues with other neighbours, one of my reasons for not approaching him to have a chat in order to resolve the problem.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Just a quick thought - have you shown the spikes to Sam? It may be worth holding him up and letting him see the spikes so that he is aware of their presence and he can adjust his routes accordingly. I know it sounds daft but cats are not daft and it would give you some peace of mind that he knows they are there when he next goes out.


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## Clairabella (Nov 8, 2017)

As much as I can see both sides here, i’d still be gutted if it was my cat and being a sensitive soul too, i’d probably assume that he did it to be awkward or something and would take it to heart too. It’s hard not to take it that way when u feel something/someone you care about and love is at risk/threatened. 

From what people are saying here, it seems as if they won’t hurt your cat, thank god! I’m sure your neighbour won’t be impressed when he realised that the spikes don’t do the trick and as much as there’s a slight satisfaction in knowing that (as it means ur cat will be safe if he crosses it) i’d Still be worried about what he could replace it with too. Hopefully not that barbed wire type of thing :,-( 

If other neighbours have had issues with him then i can see why you would assume that he is awkward. Only thing is, if he has done this without speaking to you then if he needs to re think I’m future then chances are he isn’t going to ask you again. I think i’d be inclined to knock his door as stated in the other post and just say that you have noticed the fence and if it’s ur cat causing the problem then you are approachable and would like to work with him in finding a solution. If he isn’t very understanding then you know not to bother him again xx 

I can’t see that there’s an awful lot else you could do really but good luck xxx I really hope your cat stays safe and doesn’t come to any harm because of that edging xx


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Trixie1 said:


> Your right! I have come to this conclusion because of his actions!! the spikes are repulsive to me they are to deter birds as well as cats! But I am also aware that he has caused issues with other neighbours, one of my reasons for not approaching him to have a chat in order to resolve the problem.





MoggyBaby said:


> Just a quick thought - have you shown the spikes to Sam? It may be worth holding him up and letting him see the spikes so that he is aware of their presence and he can adjust his routes accordingly. I know it sounds daft but cats are not daft and it would give you some peace of mind that he knows they are there when he next goes out.


Good idea, worth a try - no, cat's are not daft, hopefully he will avoid altogether, thanks


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Trixie1 said:


> Your right! I have come to this conclusion because of his actions!! the spikes are repulsive to me they are to deter birds as well as cats! But I am also aware that he has caused issues with other neighbours, one of my reasons for not approaching him to have a chat in order to resolve the problem.


To be fair to this man, it is your cat, (and maybe others), that are causing the problem.

I regularly find cat poop buried in the borders of my back garden. Our Staffy is inclined to snack on it if I don't find it first and she has been very ill on a few occasions.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Clairabella said:


> As much as I can see both sides here, i'd still be gutted if it was my cat and being a sensitive soul too, i'd probably assume that he did it to be awkward or something and would take it to heart too. It's hard not to take it that way when u feel something/someone you care about and love is at risk/threatened.
> 
> From what people are saying here, it seems as if they won't hurt your cat, thank god! I'm sure your neighbour won't be impressed when he realised that the spikes don't do the trick and as much as there's a slight satisfaction in knowing that (as it means ur cat will be safe if he crosses it) i'd Still be worried about what he could replace it with too. Hopefully not that barbed wire type of thing :,-(
> 
> ...


yes, I did wonder if this does not work will he replace it with something else!! Hope not!! Thanks for your reply. x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dogs bark, cats wander, dig up plants and use neighbours gardens as their toilet etc. - and neighbours should put up with all of it if I want a pet shouldn't they? Legally it's called 'nuisance' and ultimately you are responsible for any animal you own causing a nuisance.

We're into gardening season - maybe your 'unpleasant' neighbour is using weedkiller, slug pellets or other poisons in their garden in which case you should be delighted they are attempting to deter animals even though it isn't their job to keep your cat safe.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Rafa said:


> To be fair to this man, it is your cat, (and maybe others), that are causing the problem.
> 
> I regularly find cat poop buried in the borders of my back garden. Our Staffy is inclined to snack on it if I don't find it first and she has been very ill on a few occasions.





Rafa said:


> To be fair to this man, it is your cat, (and maybe others), that are causing the problem.
> 
> I regularly find cat poop buried in the borders of my back garden. Our Staffy is inclined to snack on it if I don't find it first and she has been very ill on a few occasions.


To be fair, I will do all I can to prevent Sam going over my fence as I've said, but there are 3 other fences that I have no control over, they belong to someone else, i'm sorry to hear about your staffy, there are also strays out there that will find there way into peoples garden.


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## Trixie1 (Sep 14, 2010)

havoc said:


> Dogs bark, cats wander, dig up plants and use neighbours gardens as their toilet etc. - and neighbours should put up with all of it if I want a pet shouldn't they? Legally it's called 'nuisance' and ultimately you are responsible for any animal you own causing a nuisance.
> 
> We're into gardening season - maybe your 'unpleasant' neighbour is using weedkiller, slug pellets or other poisons in their garden in which case you should be delighted they are attempting to deter animals even though it isn't their job to keep your cat safe.


Does this even deserve a response??


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Trixie1 said:


> Does this even deserve a response??


Well you did.
For the avoidance of doubt - I have six cats and a dog who would be pretty vocal if I allowed it. I love them all dearly but that doesn't mean I expect my neighbours to feel the same. It's up to me to keep them all safe and ensure they don't cause a nuisance to others.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Just a question. If you haven’t spoken to him about the spikes can you be certain that he’s put them there to deter cats? I believe these are used to deter burglars; to prevent them from climbing over a fence onto your property. Burglars can and do access people’s back gardens via other people’s gardens. Maybe you need to speak to him to ascertain if your cat is the problem or not, because it may have nothing to do with your cat at all.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't wish to be argumentative at all but, am I missing something here?

The fence in question belongs to the man in question so, it's his business and his alone what he chooses to put on it.

It really isn't appropriate for anyone to challenge him about it on the basis that something on his fence may harm their cat when it's making free with his garden.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

To be fair to your neighbour maybe he is trying to deter your cat from entering his garden (which of course he has the right to do), maybe you should count yourself lucky in that he didn't resort to a less kind way of getting your cat out of his garden. They are hardly unsightly, they won't hurt your cat so I don't understand what the problem is tbh.


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## Clairabella (Nov 8, 2017)

Rafa said:


> I don't wish to be argumentative at all but, am I missing something here?
> 
> The fence in question belongs to the man in question so, it's his business and his alone what he chooses to put on it.
> 
> It really isn't appropriate for anyone to challenge him about it on the basis that something on his fence may harm their cat when it's making free with his garden.


Challenge him? I didn't say anything about challenging anyone but to have a discussion with him to see if both parties is no harm and could work towards them both finding a diplomatic solution which suits them both so that the cat doesn't come to any harm and so that the neighbour is happy and able to deter the cat if that's what his intention was.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Even if your neighbour has caused problems with other people in the street, I would still start off by acting as though he will be ok with you because a) aggressive people can sometimes have the wind taken out of their sails by a person who is friendly and smiling and offering to help solve their problem and b) a lot of people who are branded nasty or unpleasant actually suffer from extreme social difficulties, so the problems with his other neighbours may simply be lack of understanding.


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## Clairabella (Nov 8, 2017)

CuddleMonster said:


> Even if your neighbour has caused problems with other people in the street, I would still start off by acting as though he will be ok with you because a) aggressive people can sometimes have the wind taken out of their sails by a person who is friendly and smiling and offering to help solve their problem and b) a lot of people who are branded nasty or unpleasant actually suffer from extreme social difficulties, so the problems with his other neighbours may simply be lack of understanding.


100% agree - it is just her assumption based on hearsay really that he May be a bit awkward but In having a discussion with him, it could be that he is Infact the total opposite so it is important to treat him as if he is reasonable until proven otherwise.

There's so many possibilities here and unless she 'hears it from the horses mouth' so to speak she could go round in circles all day guessing.

It's his property and he has every right to put what he wants in his garden etc, same as us all but it's a shame that the cat could get hurt by his actions so where's the harm in a friendly adult conversation with him. If he was found to be anything other than friendly then walk away. Simples. It's that sort of deliberate disregard for anyone else (in this case the cat) which is upsetting here . As much as we could all be inclined to think my property I can do what I like, if it was me I would still think about the consequences of my actions and certainly wouldn't do it if I thought it would bring harm to anyone. There's no harm in them working together to find a solution they both agree on where no one or nothing gets hurt and everyone is happy.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Surely, the welfare of the cat is the responsibility of the owner, not the neighbours?

I spent literally thousands of pounds fencing and gating my garden to be certain none of my dogs could ever escape and either cause a nuisance to neighbours or an accident on a road.

To suggest that the owner of the cat and the neighbour should discuss what is acceptable for him to use on his fence to keep wandering cats out infers that there is a joint responsibility?

If the OP is not happy with measures her neighbour has taken and believes some harm could come to her cat whilst trying to access his garden, is she not the one who should be cat proofing her garden?

I certainly never felt it was the responsibility of my neighbours to provide fencing to keep my dogs off their gardens. It is my responsibility.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Clairabella said:


> It's his property and he has every right to put what he wants in his garden etc, same as us all but it's a shame that the cat could get hurt by his actions so where's the harm in a friendly adult conversation with him. If he was found to be anything other than friendly then walk away. Simples. It's that sort of deliberate disregard for anyone else (in this case the cat) which is upsetting here . As much as we could all be inclined to think my property I can do what I like, if it was me I would still think about the consequences of my actions and certainly wouldn't do it if I thought it would bring harm to anyone. There's no harm in them working together to find a solution they both agree on where no one or nothing gets hurt and everyone is happy.


How do you know this man has a deliberate disregard for anyone else? Why should someone else's cat be his priority?

Clearly, he doesn't want cats on his garden and that's his right.


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## Clairabella (Nov 8, 2017)

Rafa said:


> Surely, the welfare of the cat is the responsibility of the owner, not the neighbours?
> 
> I spent literally thousands of pounds fencing and gating my garden to be certain none of my dogs could ever escape and either cause a nuisance to neighbours or an accident on a road.
> 
> ...


Yes totally. Can see what you are saying here and that's another perspective on it and valid argument. So I'm stumped lol.

I was thinking of it more along the lines of It this way - as someone 'reasonable' then had I been in OP shoes then I wouldn't see any harm in the neighbour approaching me if he had a problem with my cat. As you pointed out, it's not his responsibility and neither is he obligated to discuss it with anyone but it's just common courtesy I think and can sometimes avoid any bad feeling or confrontation.

He's not wrong in putting it up but neither is there any wrong in working together to find a solution. It's not making it a joint responsibility, it could be that I'm having a discussion OP will discover there's more she could do, like cat proofing for example, then he wouldn't have had to do anything but it would've been a solution which suited them both without the worry that the cat could get hurt. It's not his responsibility to look out for the cat but who in their right minds would deliberately disregard the safety of animals (I know people do, I'm not naive) but there's no harm in trying to work together if both parties are willing xx


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I do see what you're saying.

To give this man his due and, talking about confrontation, he could have come round and confronted the OP about her cat, but he hasn't.

It is very irritating when you have cats coming onto your garden, pooping, digging in borders and uprooting plants, especially when it's happening again and again.

I do believe that if you own any animal and make the decision to allow it to roam at will, you really do take a huge risk.

The OP clearly loves her cat, no doubt about that. Why on earth not cat proof her garden and keep him safe?

This neighbour, who she has referred to as "unpleasant", has not tried to hurt her cat, just exclude it from his garden.

I don't think he's been at all unreasonable. The OP did comment in her first post that "cats will go where they want".


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I know this is a very touchy subject so will tread carefully.
I have always taken great care never to inflict my animals on my neighbours, as an ex dog owner I made sure that my garden was well fenced to keep them in and all cats have been indoor or confined to the garden with the exception of one who was a stray that "moved in".
I now find that I am being visited/hassled/damn well annoyed by cats wandering through the garden upsetting Meeko who has free access to a run in the garden.
These cats taunt him through the fence of his run/sit on top of the tunnel leading from the house to his run and pick fights with him through the run fence and to be honest I'm p*ssed off by it.
I shoudnt have to stop animals belonging to neighbours from accessing my garden but if that's what it takes to keep my cat safe then I will have to.
If they don't like it then they will have to make sure their cats are not able to venture into the garden.
Just thought I would give an example of this problem from the "other side of the fence"


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

I think everyone on here who's read my posts knows that I am an avid cat lover of the highest order but it never ceases to amaze me why people who allow their cats to roam, object to other people taking reasonable measures in order to deter other people's cats from causing a nuisance on their property!

Unfortunately I am unable to cat proof my garden and we have several local marauding cats coming into the gardens continually causing problems and this has been going on for many years . One cat in particular over the past year or so has effectively wiped out all of the goldfish in my pond which also can't be cat proofed...the owner refuses to do anything about it so I and another neighbour who also has a pond have to put up with their pets causing us grief...it's simply not on!

To be fair there's one long haired old cat who's always welcome in my garden as when he/she visits, they usually just sit sunbathing on the patio area at the end of the garden when it's sunny and will lay there for quite a while at times. Even the local garden birds aren't afraid of him/her as it never stalks or chases them even when they're feeding only feet away from it so I always leave it alone but I'll chase any others who come in if i see them.

This is why I would never allow Jasper to roam free...he's OUR pet and OUR responsibility and it's OUR duty to protect him from harm and as I can't confine him to our property, I personally wouldn't want to risk him causing a nuisance to other people not to mention me worrying about his well-being while he was out of my sight, so for that reason he will remain an indoor cat.

I did have plans to perhaps construct him a secure sheltered outdoor day-pen in one corner of the garden this summer but I know full well that if I built one and put him in there during the day, other neighbourhood cats would soon be around and most likely taunt him which makes me think twice about constructing it as it could cause him serious stress if he was faced with other itinerant cats continually invading his space even if they can't physically get at him nor him at them to defend his territory.

I do sometimes wonder if cat owners who allow their cats to roam, fully appreciate, understand or in some cases don't even care about the impact their roving cat may be having on other people's lives? The way I see it, if someone doesn't like other people's cat coming onto their property and put up reasonable deterrents to keep these cats out, instead of complaining about it, affected cat owners should take suitable measures in order to ensure that their cat doesn't cause other people problems. Why on earth should anyone have to go to the expense of cat proofing their garden if they don't own a cat?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

This is why none of mine roam, nor will I sell to an outdoor home. We have had incidents of antifreeze poisoning locally, done by people who are fed up with cats toileting in their garden, fighting in their garden, and being general cat nuisances.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

Trixie1 said:


> the spikes are repulsive to me


What I find repulsive are people that allow their cats to roam and cause all kinds of mess and damage on other peoples property.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> This is why none of mine roam, nor will I sell to an outdoor home. We have had incidents of antifreeze poisoning locally, done by people who are fed up with cats toileting in their garden, fighting in their garden, and being general cat nuisances.


To be perfectly honest I would never be able to rest knowing that Jasper was out wandering around somewhere! I'm bad enough if he's wandering around out of sight in the house so if he was allowed to roam outside, I don't think I could cope! 
He's a bit like having a toddler...everything goes into his mouth so you have to keep your eye on him. When he goes quiet, unless you know he's sleeping, you can guarantee he's up to something naughty or other!
Jasper had such a difficult start in his early life and it was touch and go whether or not he survived which I suppose makes me even more protective of him...thankfully between us he overcame all of the odds and has developed into a wonderfully healthy and well adjusted cat but he's so trusting and naive, that I don't think he'd even last two minutes as an outside cat...he is so passive/non aggressive and has no stranger fear and would willingly let anyone pick him up and wander off with him so for those reason alone, he'd never be allowed out!


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

I love cats.... I have a flock of them on my desk as I type this. But I have to admit that I don't especially care for the idea of strangers cats in my garden. (likewise I would be furious if my neighbour had a dog that barked all day) I'm not saying the neighbour was right to put up the spikes (though thankfully these specific spikes don't look quite as bad as I expected when I opened the thread) but I can very much sympathise with someone who doesn't want random animals in their garden.

My granny was demented by neighbours cats for years, in the end she kept huge super soaker water guns beside her back door. The sight of a 60 year old woman with a huge watergun is not a sight that I will ever forget. I don't doubt that she would have used a pressure washer if it turned on quickly enough...

This is a general comment, I don't mean it about @Trixie1's cats


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## pfcpompeysarah (Nov 7, 2017)

My neighbour has put the same spikes up on the fence in between our property, it doesn't bother me with regards to my kitty as he is an indoor cat but what really annoys me is that when I put sheets on the washing line and they blow in the wind, I end up with them all caught up on the spikes... very irritating. He is a bit of a one for not wanting cats in his garden, which is fair enough as I know that they tend to do their business in my garden which is very annoying so I can understand his desire to keep cats out of his, however, I have seen cats blatantly get over the spikes somehow or another so its wasted money in this instance!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Move your washing line.

Your washing is not the responsibility of your neighbour.


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## Orla (Sep 16, 2015)

Without getting into the indoor/outdoor/catproofed garden debate, this is just in direct reply to the OP. My elderly neighbour put spikes on the fence between our properties (technically I think it is my fence but we have a decent relationship so I am not willing to argue if it makes him feel better). My cats still sit on the fence at times although they aren’t keen on walking on it too much, so I don’t think it can be comfortable but certainly hasn’t hurt them. It wasn’y actually to keep them out of the garden, more to stop them climbing the tree by the fence as he has put birdhouses in there. It wasn’t a total success but does deter them a little.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

I would rather see the rubber spikes than to see a cat pelted with stones. I’ve seen that here! Haters will be haters.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

[QUOTE="Haters will be haters. [/QUOTE]

Slightly unfair comment IMO.

I certainly don't hate cats and would never harm one, but that does not mean I want them sh!tt!ng all over the garden and killing the birds that I have put food out for.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Doyley said:


> [QUOTE="Haters will be haters.


Slightly unfair comment IMO.

I certainly don't hate cats and would never harm one, but that does not mean I want them sh!tt!ng all over the garden and killing the birds that I have put food out for.[/QUOTE]
No offence meant, I was referring to Cats being pelted with stones. I would put the rubber spikes on my own walls if I could find it here to protect my own cat, she can't jump the walls but other cats can.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

Soozi said:


> Slightly unfair comment IMO.
> 
> I certainly don't hate cats and would never harm one, but that does not mean I want them sh!tt!ng all over the garden and killing the birds that I have put food out for.


No offence meant, I was referring to Cats being pelted with stones. I would put the rubber spikes on my own walls if I could find it here to protect my own cat, she can't jump the walls but other cats can. [/QUOTE]

Oh the joys of forum misunderstandings


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Doyley said:


> No offence meant, I was referring to Cats being pelted with stones. I would put the rubber spikes on my own walls if I could find it here to protect my own cat, she can't jump the walls but other cats can.


Oh the joys of forum misunderstandings [/QUOTE]
Lol! I often open my mouth and insert foot!


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## big_panda (May 1, 2018)

I'm having a problem with the neighbours cat using our garden as it's own personal en suite. I don't want to harm the cat but sick of cleaning up it's business. Neighbours claim it does it's business in the litter tray but clearly it doesn't, any ideas how to combat this problem?


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@big_panda 
Are you sure it is just that neighbors cat, not also others? Is there anyway you can set up a camera to see?
If it is the one cat, I would politely show the evidence, video or photo and ask the neighbors if they could try cat proofing their garden to keep their cat in it.

Another idea, if he is using one particular area, to somehow block that off and he may find another space elsewhere.
I think someone once mentioned, upturning earth in an area of their garden for their cats to use. Maybe cats like the fresh dirt? You could suggest to the owners to make such a spot in their garden. Add a bit of the deposits from the litter tray to encourage the cat to go there.


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## big_panda (May 1, 2018)

Summercat said:


> @big_panda
> Are you sure it is just that neighbors cat, not also others? Is there anyway you can set up a camera to see?
> If it is the one cat, I would politely show the evidence, video or photo and ask the neighbors if they could try cat proofing their garden to keep their cat in it.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty certain it's the neighbours cat as I often see their cat/s in my garden, all in all they have around 3 of them. The cat mess has occurred quite frequently since they moved in about 5 months ago. It is varied which part of the garden they use to deposit their nastiness, sometimes at the back of the garden somethings near the front.

How do I go about cat proofing my garden? Don't want to spend too much money.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@big_panda 
Not sure the cost but do not think it is cheap. DIY is less costly. The general idea is for people to keep their cats in. 
You may be able to rig something up on the side of the fence or wall that borders their garden.
This is a thread, quite long but it will give you an idea of cat proofing.
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/

I would still mention to the neighbors that they could try to encourage their cats to use a spot in their own garden by freshly turning the dirt and adding a bit of waste from the litter box to get the scent there.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

big_panda said:


> I'm having a problem with the neighbours cat using our garden as it's own personal en suite. I don't want to harm the cat but sick of cleaning up it's business. Neighbours claim it does it's business in the litter tray but clearly it doesn't, any ideas how to combat this problem?


If you can I would rig up a garden hose and give them a soaking everytime they appear in the garden.
As long as you don't direct it in their faces it wont hurt them and hopefully they will get the message.
It is possible to buy sensor operated cat water sprays but I'm not sure just how effective they are.
Something like this............https://www.primrose.co.uk/-p-67763...AgdHxuJQ9bZq0Ycf3wmPVMrONTOfQc3BtAaAmGE8P8HAQ


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## Richard Fairbairn (May 31, 2018)

I signed up specifically to post here.

I don't like outdoor cats. Our new neighbour has one and it does not know the difference between its garden and our garden. Therefore it spends a lot of its time sitting on the roof of my garden cabin stalking the birds about a half metre from the feeder I have been using for over a decade.

I'm about to put plastic strips on the fence as I already expressed my distaste at the cat's presense in my garden. It is already **** behind the log cabin, which I discovered whilst weeding.

All cat owners should realise that not everyone likes the idea of an unnatural predator tearing apart the birds they feed and treating their garden like a toilet / play area.

Neighbours also have a dog which they leave alone all day. In the first month it barked all day. Now it howls all day. When I go to the garden to do anything, their dog is out there barking, barking, barking. This is so frustrating for me as our own dog passed away (a Dogs Trust rescue) and now the problem dog next door is narrowing our opportunities for rescuing another dog.

Keeping on topic - I don't want your cat in my garden. I dislike them. They kill the birds I love and each one is just as alive as your cat.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Richard Fairbairn said:


> I signed up specifically to post here.
> 
> I don't like outdoor cats. Our new neighbour has one and it does not know the difference between its garden and our garden. Therefore it spends a lot of its time sitting on the roof of my garden cabin stalking the birds about a half metre from the feeder I have been using for over a decade.
> 
> ...


Don't blame the cat,.... blame the owner! The cat doesn't know any different.

I have had my pond looted of almost all of my fish due to errant roaming cats, one in particular which are allowed to roam unchaperoned so I know what it's like to have unwelcome cats on my property.
Just recently a pair of Blackbirds raised a brood no more than three feet from my backdoor which we use constantly and the parents were feeding the fledglings on the lawn and one of the cats that roam about killed one so I can actually sympathise with you.

Surprisingly however, there are many cat owners who don't allow their cats either go out of their house or are restricted through specific measures from leaving their owner's property so not all cats are nuisance.
I certainly wouldn't allow my cat outside unless in his carrier so not all cat owners are like the one living next to you!


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## Richard Fairbairn (May 31, 2018)

jasperthecat said:


> Don't blame the cat,.... blame the owner! The cat doesn't know any different.
> 
> I have had my pond looted of almost all of my fish due to errant roaming cats, one in particular which are allowed to roam unchaperoned so I know what it's like to have unwelcome cats on my property.
> Just recently a pair of Blackbirds raised a brood no more than three feet from my backdoor which we use constantly and the parents were feeding the fledglings on the lawn and one of the cats that roam about killed one so I can actually sympathise with you.
> ...


Thanks for this. I absolutely do not blame the cat, but the situation is just something I have to deal with - at my own expense (time and money). I can never understand why it's legal to have a pet that roams on its own and can cause car accidents and disease without having to perform some basic steps to ensure the animal is controlled.

Edit: Absolutely heartbreaking that a customer of mine would hand feed blackbirds at his door and I would always be greeted by them when I visited. I enjoyed stopping to take photos, etc, until one day there were no blackbirds. When I asked my customer he said a new cat had appeared on the scene and had killed them. Outdoor cat? No thanks.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

You will no doubt get a mixed response here but I would just like to say that you have my sympathy.
I have had cats for over 20 years and never understood why it is considered "normal" to allow them to wander at will,as much for their own safety as for the impact it can have on those who are not "cat people".
I presently have a run in the garden where my lad can come and go in safety but even there he is hassled by neighbours cats taunting him through the wire .


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I'm sure somewhere I've seen better, safer cat/fox repeller...... sort of rollers you fix to the top of the fence so nothing can grip and get over??


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## 5r6ubertbe6y (Dec 5, 2017)

kittih said:


> I think the marketing might be more optimistic than reality.


So many cat repellent products are said to be useless and I think that factor makes the neighbour more angry because he's spent lots of money on ineffective products. I think the OP should cat proof her garden.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Trixie1 said:


> Thank you for your reply, it's good to know that he won't hurt himself, yes, they are the plastic strip type, didn't know that such a thing existed in the 30 years that I have had cats, not a problem before, they are also an eyesore, I would have thought the first port of call would be to speak to me, had no idea it was an issue, I could put up cat proofing this side, Sam can go over other ways which are completely out of my control!! and my neighbours for that matter! Ideally I would prefer he stayed away! I am a considerate person but cats being cats will go where they please as you are probably aware.


These spikes will not hurt your cat so please don't worry. I am afraid to say I have just ordered an ultrasonic cat repellent as next doors cat continuously comes in our garden and also sits behind the cat proofing terrorising my cat. I would never ever consider using any deterrent that would harm another cat.


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## 5r6ubertbe6y (Dec 5, 2017)

How does the neighbours cat get in and out of a cat proof garden? 


Soozi said:


> These spikes will not hurt your cat so please don't worry. I am afraid to say I have just ordered an ultrasonic cat repellent as next doors cat continuously comes in our garden and also sits behind the cat proofing terrorising my cat. I would never ever consider using any deterrent that would harm another cat.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MissMiloKitty said:


> How does the neighbours cat get in and out of a cat proof garden?


It sits behind it pulling threatening faces and no doubt growling!


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

MissMiloKitty said:


> How does the neighbours cat get in and out of a cat proof garden?


We can't cat proof our front garden and it comes in there! It's a nightmare. At the back we have cat proofing but the neighbours cat sits on the wall the other side of the wire and growls and screams at my girl! In an attempt to see it off she hurt her front leg. So the ultrasonic deterrent will hopefully stop it jumping up. I will also put one in the front. We only have a pedestrian pathway in the front not a road But she stays in the garden where we can see her.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Calvine said:


> It sits behind it pulling threatening faces and no doubt growling!


Lol! It screams like a banshee and lashes at the wire! Scares my girl half to death!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

One of the best kind of cat or fox repellents for the garden is the battery operated Contech Scarecrow motion-activated spray. You would need an outdoor tap to run it from (or a tap in a garage perhaps). It is expensive but worth it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Contech-30...3&sr=8-4&keywords=contech+scarecrow+sprinkler

This model also gets good reviews on Amazon :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquaforte-...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0HYRTXGWHBNGAXGGHAY8


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

I don't suppose this post will endear me to some but the short answer is that NO ONE should have to go to any trouble or expense to repel someone else's cat from invading their own property if they don't want them there! If the cat's own is prepared to risk their cat annoying others then it should be entirely the responsibility of the cat's owner to fund any preventative measures and not those affected! ...simple!

Further, I can't see how allowing one's cat to roam beyond the boundaries of the owner's property uncontrolled or supervised is responsible cat ownership! Maybe I'm wrong here but the way I see it, the risks are far too great to the animal to allow it beyond the property boundaries if not chaperoned! I certainly wouldn't even consider the idea of Jasper leaving the house without him being in either a carrier or enclosure. He means too much to me to risk that!

If a cat can leave the boundaries of the property then so too can other cats enter and in so doing the cat could be at serious risk from injury over territorial disputes etc, not to mention the risk of picking up fleas, viruses etc.
Flea treatment is a dreadful chemical that people put on their cats and it is generally applied each month because it leaves the home ....if a cat is indoor only like Jasper then one or two treatments per year is more than sufficient simply as a preventative measure.

When was the last time one heard of a cat being run down and killed or maimed by a motor vehicle in their home or cat proofed garden? When was the last time a disgruntled neighbour injured or poisoned a cat in it's home? No one can possibly know what their cat is getting up to the potential danger that they may face if left to their own devices.

It may have been acceptable in the days of the horse and cart when many properties were overrun with mice and rats and cats were welcomed onto someone's property but that's mostly gone now and personal space is at a premium so they don't want other people's pets causing issues and I can see their point because as a responsible cat owner, I can see the other side of the coin and problems those nice wandering kitties cause other people.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

chillminx said:


> One of the best kind of cat or fox repellents for the garden is the battery operated Contech Scarecrow motion-activated spray. You would need an outdoor tap to run it from (or a tap in a garage perhaps). It is expensive but worth it.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Contech-30...3&sr=8-4&keywords=contech+scarecrow+sprinkler
> 
> ...


Ooh yes I looked at those but unfortunately I have to place it high up on the cat proofing with the sensor facing their garden so if one of the owners happens to be tending to their garden they will get a soaking! Lol! Now there's a thought! Hmmm! Lol!


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

jasperthecat said:


> I don't suppose this post will endear me to some but the short answer is that NO ONE should have to go to any trouble or expense to repel someone else's cat from invading their own property if they don't want them there! If the cat's own is prepared to risk their cat annoying others then it should be entirely the responsibility of the cat's owner to fund any preventative measures and not those affected! ...simple!
> 
> Further, I can't see how allowing one's cat to roam beyond the boundaries of the owner's property uncontrolled or supervised is responsible cat ownership! Maybe I'm wrong here but the way I see it, the risks are far too great to the animal to allow it beyond the property boundaries if not chaperoned! I certainly wouldn't even consider the idea of Jasper leaving the house without him being in either a carrier or enclosure. He means too much to me to risk that!
> 
> ...


I totally agree! The cat next door is free roaming! My girl isn't but tbh the neighbours couldn't give a monkeys they can hear and see the problems it causes but do nothing.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

One of my neighbours has planted up recently all of the borders in his front garden. He must be having a problem with slugs and snails and he has covered his borders in slug pellets.

Our front gardens aren't fenced, so any wandering cat, (and there are a number on this estate), could walk over or dig in the soil and have pellets all over their paws, with potentially disastrous consequences. 

There are so many dangers for any cat out and about unsupervised that I really can't understand anyone who is prepared to take the risk and allow their cat to roam.

These cats are at just as much risk as a free roaming dog would be and it would be unthinkable, (and illegal), to allow your dog to go out and take care of itself.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Soozi said:


> Scares my girl half to death!


Poor soul. I know; you feel so sad for them. Our little Gloria seldom goes out - maybe once every two weeks, and is always in sight on a neighbour's garage or shed. But another neighbour has a great fat thug of a cat (female) who thinks it is a great jape to stop Gloria coming home, ever. I have seen Gloria jump down and head homewards and then be intercepted by this fat oaf and turn and run off and hide. I know the owner quite well and she knows the cat is a bully so I now ring or text her and ask if she would mind calling Dora in and keeping her in until poor little Gloria has plucked up courage to sneak back home: so we have this arrangement. When Gloria is back (she normally sneaks home after dark), I text her again and say, 'It's OK, she's home, you can let Dora out now''. I've actually fed Dora a few times when the owners were away, and she is totally lovely with people.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Rafa wouldn't let my cat free roam as I know there are many dangers out there for it. I don't see free roaming dogs and cats in the same category though. Dogs are more of a danger to humans if they free roam. 
My sister in law does not like to walk in her neighborhood as some dogs are unfenced. I have had the uncomfortable experience of encountering unleashed dogs before. 
I just cannot see the nuisance in the same category, as dogs will openly be aggressive to humans whereas cats only in defense. Not to mention free roaming dogs may kill or maim other pets.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

I for one am sick and tired of having to clean up other peoples cats poo, if I allowed my dog to go into someones garden and poo
they would have plenty to say about it. And before anyone says it, they do NOT always bury it they have done it on my lawn ,
on the foot path and even in one of my plant pots that have stones on it. Even if they did bury it I still do not want to be tending my garden
and digging up poo or putting my hands in it. Cat owners should be held to the same rules/ laws as dog owners
in my opinion no matter what pet you have the owner should be held responsible for cleaning up after it NOT let it roam free
and let everyone else have to do it .I am not a cat hater , I just hate having to repeatedly cleanup behind other peoples cats, 
I am disabled and find it difficult enough cleaning up after my own pet.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

The law needs to change to prevent cats from being allowed to free roam. Cats do very well being indoor, or in a run or enclosed garden. Attitudes towards cats are a huge part of the problem - that cats *need *to roam. Were they kept in from kittenhood then they would know no different.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Summercat said:


> as dogs will openly be aggressive to humans whereas cats only in defense.


I'm sorry but that is rubbish.
Cats can cause just as much damage as dogs can when out of control...dogs are not openly aggressive to humans as a rule, we wouldn't have bothered to domesticate them if they went about attacking us for no reason!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Having had dogs most of my life which I have gone to a great deal of time and trouble to make sure they don't roam or cause a nuisance to anyone, I do find it annoying that cats are permitted to go anywhere. They rarely come into my garden, which isn't very big, mainly because all my dogs over the years have chased cats (with no encouragement from me I might add).
Keeping my pets contained is so ingrained into me that should I ever have cat I wouldn't allow it to roam as I would be worried constantly over it being run over/trapped/poisoned/causing a nuisance and so on.
My pet, my responsibility.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Hopefully the antiquated law regarding domesticated cats will change and owners will be forced to be more responsible. I would never sleep at night if I thought my cat was out roaming the streets and gardens not knowing if I would ever see it again if the worst should happen.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Soozi said:


> Hopefully the antiquated law regarding domesticated cats will change and owners will be forced to be more responsible. I would never sleep at night if I thought my cat was out roaming the streets and gardens not knowing if I would ever see it again if the worst should happen.


I'd have to put Charlie down if they did ban roaming for cats - I can't catproof for various reasons, and she gets genuinely depressed after a few days if she can't have a potter round outside. PTS would be kinder.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> *I'd have to put Charlie down if they did ban roaming for cats* - I can't catproof for various reasons, and she gets genuinely depressed after a few days if she can't have a potter round outside. PTS would be kinder.


Obviously the law if it were ever to be changed it would have to be "phased in" just as the tail docking ban was.
All cats must be microchipped and any kittens bought/acquired after the date of the law change would be required to be kept within their owners property/grounds,apart from being taken to vets/cattery or anywhere under the owners supervision.
Owners of others could be "encouraged" to keep them confined and if the law were to make them "responsible" for any damage etc done whilst out it may just make more owners think before letting their cats out to free roam.
With a bit of give and take it is perfectly possible.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

OMG No! I would to hate to hear that owners put their cats down just because they couldn’t roam the neighbourhood.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

buffie said:


> Obviously the law if it were ever to be changed it would have to be "phased in" just as the tail docking ban was.
> All cats must be microchipped and any kittens bought/acquired after the date of the law change would be required to be kept within their owners property/grounds,apart from being taken to vets/cattery or anywhere under the owners supervision.
> Owners of others could be "encouraged" to keep them confined and if the law were to make them "responsible" for any damage etc done whilst out it may just make more owners think before letting their cats out to free roam.
> With a bit of give and take it is perfectly possible.


I would agree to that! It woukd help reduce the RTAs if Cats had to be kept in hours of darkness at least.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Dogs like to free roam too they are just not allowed to , they ALL came from wild animals, 
Cats can can be walked on a harness just the same as dogs can if they are raised to it the same 
as the dogs they wouldn't know any difference. In fact I used to know a couple of people who did just that
to keep their cats safe and be able to clean up after them, I really don't see why there are 2 sets of laws 
1 for cats and 1 for dogs, they both originated from wild animals , they both like to roam, they both need to poop
and need to be cleaned up after and they can both be aggressive to other animals and to humans.In my opinion 
The reason SOME people have cats is solely because they don't want the hassle of having to 
walk them and clean up behind them they would rather leave those duties for other saps like me to do .


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

buffie said:


> Obviously the law if it were ever to be changed it would have to be "phased in" just as the tail docking ban was.
> All cats must be microchipped and* any kittens bought/acquired after the date of the law change would be required to be kept within their owners property/grounds,apart from being taken to vets/cattery or anywhere under the owners supervision.*
> Owners of others could be "encouraged" to keep them confined and if the law were to make them "responsible" for any damage etc done whilst out it may just make more owners think before letting their cats out to free roam.
> With a bit of give and take it is perfectly possible.


Unfortunately I cannot catproof my current garden (in ANY form), so that would be an end to my having cats. Not sure how you'd tell the difference between a pre and post law change cat, either.

I don't have a cat flap, and both my girls are always in at night. I have litter trays that they come home to use. Both are recall trained to the point where it nearly always works. Lorelei stays away from other people anyway (she's my scaredy cat) and Charlie-girl is generally beloved. Only one neighbour doesn't like cats in her garden, and she has my permission to chase them away. I'm not sure what else I can do, really, and no-one has ever complained.



Soozi said:


> OMG No! I would to hate to hear that owners put their cats down just because they couldn't roam the neighbourhood.


Unfortunately, unless I miraculously came into a lot of money and could afford a suitable property, it would be the only option for Charlie. I couldn't bear to see her confined indoors and unhappy. She won't walk on a harness and she doesn't play with toys (twice I have kept her in for five weeks, and you really don't want to see the emotional state she got into), she just wants to potter around outside.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

I think people see cats as easy animals that look after themselves, you will find with dog owners that a majority will play with their dogs inside the home in addition to walks. But you won't find as many cat owners who spend time playing with their cats in the home. On average dogs require one and a half hours of walking per day, it would be interesting to see the average time cat owners spend interacting with their cat. 

Dogs have been companions for a long time, but until fairly recently cats have just been pest control, so society as a whole in the UK generally sees cats differently. 

Bronn does have (controlled) access outdoors, but he still requires lots of play otherwise he gets bored and becomes a complete pain in the arse as without play he has to make his own fun, and I doubt there are many cats out there who don't have a daily mad half hour. 

Rescues could lead the way by really promoting indoor cats. I never understand why they say a cat cannot be indoor, they're indoor at the shelter!!! 

Even if free roaming were still allowed it would be good if cats were more equal to dogs, so compulsory microchips, owners responsible for damage their animal causes, however if free roaming remaings I would like it to be an offense for an unnetuered cat to be allowed outside at all or it to be an offense for a cat/kitten to be rehomed without being neutered beforehand.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Agree! 
1) compulsive micro chipping
2) compulsive neutering 
3) Cats being kept in at night
4) owners to be responsible for damages


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Vanessa131 said:


> I think people see cats as easy animals that look after themselves, you will find with dog owners that a majority will play with their dogs inside the home in addition to walks. But you won't find as many cat owners who spend time playing with their cats in the home. On average dogs require one and a half hours of walking per day, it would be interesting to see the average time cat owners spend interacting with their cat.
> 
> Dogs have been companions for a long time, but until fairly recently cats have just been pest control, so society as a whole in the UK generally sees cats differently.
> 
> ...


Compulsory microchips, yes, I'm all for that. Both are done.

Charlie doesn't really play, aside from on her own terms. I've started making my own toys that I know she likes, now, after spending hundreds of pounds in vain searching for things she will play with. When she is depressed, she won't play at all. She prefers cuddles - we have half an hour snuggling before I get up most mornings, and there will undoubtedly be more tonight - but what she craves is to roll around on the patio, potter around the garden and sit in the borders and watch the world go by. Lorelei, on the other hand, will play with anything going and in the winter would quite readily be an indoor cat, but when the weather is good she also likes some outside time - though she would probably handle living without it if she had to. We played fetch with a homemade cork and feather toy this morning 

I also agree that many larger rescues could do more to promote indoor cats. BUT, it must be borne in mind that not all cats can adapt to such a life, and that containing a cat is a lot more difficult that containing a dog. Most dogs, all you have to do is put up a decent six foot garden fence and thats them secure in the garden. Most cats can scale a six foot fence with ease, not to mention trees, sheds, pergolas and any other vertical surface. Most dogs won't jump out of windows. Cats will! So, for example, in summer you either have to keep all doors closed (windows are easier to cat proof, obviously), or (if you have the space, I don't) have an airlock system with two screen doors, or confine the cats to one room if you want the back door open.

So yes, if it becomes a choice between keeping a cat I love confined and miserable, or PTS, I will PTS. It would break my heart, but without her potters outdoors she would genuinely have no QoL, so what else could I do? If she were physically injured beyond hope of any QoL that is what we would advocate, after all.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Soozi said:


> Agree!
> 1) compulsive micro chipping
> 2) compulsive neutering
> 3) Cats being kept in at night
> 4) owners to be responsible for damages


That's all well and good but what about cleaning up their poop the main 
problem people have with cats is that they poop just where they feel like it 
and sometimes destroy newly laid flower beds to do it and whoever is unfortunate enough 
to have it left in their garden has to clean it up. If a dog owner allowed their dog to do that they can be prosecuted.
Dog owners have to clean up their dogs poop and curb some of their natural instincts,cat owners 
should have to do the same. Cats CAN be trained the same as dogs , and should be
treated the same as dogs with the same laws applying to both animals.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Compulsory microchips, yes, I'm all for that. Both are done.
> 
> Charlie doesn't really play, aside from on her own terms. I've started making my own toys that I know she likes, now, after spending hundreds of pounds in vain searching for things she will play with. When she is depressed, she won't play at all. She prefers cuddles - we have half an hour snuggling before I get up most mornings, and there will undoubtedly be more tonight - but what she craves is to roll around on the patio, potter around the garden and sit in the borders and watch the world go by. Lorelei, on the other hand, will play with anything going and in the winter would quite readily be an indoor cat, but when the weather is good she also likes some outside time - though she would probably handle living without it if she had to. We played fetch with a homemade cork and feather toy this morning
> 
> ...


Lets imagine free roaming was banned and you for some reason couldn't build a cat run etc. Surely instead of putting her down you would rehome her to someone who could catproof their garden or build a cat run?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Vanessa131 said:


> Lets imagine free roaming was banned and you for some reason couldn't build a cat run etc. Surely instead of putting her down you would rehome her to someone who could catproof their garden or build a cat run?


With all the cats in rescue, who do you imagine is going to take on a 13yo black cat on daily doses of Metacam and joint supplements for mild arthritis of the lower spine?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Summercat said:


> just cannot see the nuisance in the same category, as dogs will openly be aggressive to humans whereas cats only in defense. Not to mention free roaming dogs may kill or maim other pets.


Eh?

I have been attacked by a cat once and believe me, it was not defending itself.

Our Staffy has been attacked by a cat which actually came after her and my Jack Russell had her ear literally torn in two by a cat which was sitting behind a gate and lashed out as we walked by. My dog hadn't even seen the cat, so that was certainly not in self defense.

I have never been attacked by a dog.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> With all the cats in rescue, who do you imagine is going to take on a 13yo black cat on daily doses of Metacam and joint supplements for mild arthritis of the lower spine?


I certainly would, a lot of rescues also fund ongoing medical costs when they rehome a cat with an ongoing medical condition. Luckily both metacam and joint supplements are low cost, so if an owner couldn't afford those I would wonder if they could afford a cat at all.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Rosie64 said:


> That's all well and good but what about cleaning up their poop the main
> problem people have with cats is that they poop just where they feel like it
> and sometimes destroy newly laid flower beds to do it and whoever is unfortunate enough
> to have it left in their garden has to clean it up. If a dog owner allowed their dog to do that they can be prosecuted.
> ...


That would be covered under point 4.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> The law needs to change to prevent cats from being allowed to free roam.


I'm afraid I would be another one who would need to rehome my cats - or in all probability, euthanize one - if this law came into play. Situations are not always cut and dried and it is not simply a case of saying "just keep them in or cat proof" - the former is not always possible and the latter is not always feasible. It is very presumptuous to think that what works for one cat would work for another and it is borderline rude to make sweeping claims about people not caring for their cats in allowing them to roam.

One of our neighbours has a dog who is very chatty, barks very loudly at all hours. Barks at balloons and birds and aeroplanes and anything in the sky. Yes, it's a bit annoying, especially when he goes off at 7am when you're trying to get your one lie in about a month, but you know, it's just a minor thing, I can live with it - just as I can live with the occasional non resident cat spraying or crapping in my garden. Maybe I'm just a pretty chilled out person, but in this great big wide world I have more immediate concerns and considerations than a dog barking and some cat crap...

These conversations always seem to get so heated, I think I'll go and sit in my garden and listen to Merlin (the dog) shout at some pigeons


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Rafa said:


> Eh?
> 
> I have been attacked by a cat once and believe me, it was not defending itself.
> 
> ...


I have been bitten by a dog! Completely unprovoked.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Vanessa131 said:


> I certainly would, a lot of rescues also fund ongoing medical costs when they rehome a cat with an ongoing medical condition. Luckily both metacam and joint supplements are low cost, so if an owner couldn't afford those I would wonder if they could afford a cat at all.


And never mind that being locked in a cage with lots of other cats around would also be hell for her? She's not that keen on other cats (Lori is usually tolerated, but Charlie won't usually allow touching), and after a few days she'd be a depressed, grumpy, growly shadow of her former self. That's not going to endear her to adoptors.

I support The ARC. They have a lovely pair of older black and white cats (Millie and Frodo) of a similar age whose elderly owner died, and they have been in rescue for months despite constant advertising. No-one wants them because of their age and their colour. At least they have each other (they are very closely bonded). Charlie wouldn't even have that...

Going to leave this for a while. I can't afford to start crying at work, especially at monthly reporting time. Too much to do...


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Vanessa131 said:


> That would be covered under point 4.


And how do you propose people find out which cat in the neighborhood left which deposit or dug up your flower bed 
so that the owners can be held responsible, it is usually done when no one is around not in front of you.
If ALL cats were trained from kittens to walk on a harness and leash and taken out regularly as dogs 
are there would not be a problem.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Erenya said:


> I'm afraid I would be another one who would need to rehome my cats - or in all probability, euthanize one - if this law came into play. Situations are not always cut and dried and it is not simply a case of saying "just keep them in or cat proof" - the former is not always possible and the latter is not always feasible. It is very presumptuous to think that what works for one cat would work for another and it is borderline rude to make sweeping claims about people not caring for their cats in allowing them to roam.
> 
> One of our neighbours has a dog who is very chatty, barks very loudly at all hours. Barks at balloons and birds and aeroplanes and anything in the sky. Yes, it's a bit annoying, especially when he goes off at 7am when you're trying to get your one lie in about a month, but you know, it's just a minor thing, I can live with it - just as I can live with the occasional non resident cat spraying or crapping in my garden. Maybe I'm just a pretty chilled out person, but in this great big wide world I have more immediate concerns and considerations than a dog barking and some cat crap...
> 
> These conversations always seem to get so heated, I think I'll go and sit in my garden and listen to Merlin (the dog) shout at some pigeons


Yes it's a shame if we could all discuss the topic without getting snipey. We need to respect other posters points of view.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Soozi said:


> I have been bitten by a dog! Completely unprovoked.


I have only bitten by my own dog when we have been playing, so more of a nip. Cats however, oh my, I have been bitten by every cat I have owned, usually at tablet time or at the vets, but Bronn will walk by and bite my ankles!! Right now he is laying across my feet so I daren't move!

I do like that dogs are much more predictable as their body language is very obvious, where as cats are miniature maniacs and show fewer signs


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Rosie64 said:


> And how do you propose people find out which cat in the neighborhood left which deposit or dug up your flower bed
> so that the owners can be held responsible, it is usually done when no one is around not in front of you.
> If ALL cats were trained from kittens to walk on a harness and leash and taken out regularly as dogs
> are there would not be a problem.


People would do the same as happens with dogs now. Leads wouldn't solve this, if that was the case dogs would never be run over, dogs would never wander into peoples gardens, dogs would never be lost etc. Nothing will solve issues, we can reduce, but we can't go beyond that as no animal is truly able to be contained. If zoo's get wild animals escaping, we have to accept even if laws did change there would still be problems.

Has anyone else seen on the news that some big cats have escaped at a zoo in Germany!


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> The law needs to change to prevent cats from being allowed to free roam. Cats do very well being indoor, or in a run or enclosed garden. Attitudes towards cats are a huge part of the problem - that cats *need *to roam. Were they kept in from kittenhood then they would know no different.


The problem is that whenever this emotive issue arises, there are always lots of suggestions on how one might ameliorate the situation or make compromises or deploy various devices but no one seems to address the underlying problem. Ultimately, the only answer is DON'T allow the cat to leave the boundaries of the owner's property. That is the only true solution to almost all issues.
No one can argue that a cat isn't safer when kept on one's own property! Once a cat strays beyond the boundaries of the owner's property unsupervised, the risks to its safety and well-being rise exponentially, depending upon the location, not to mention a possible cause of irritation to others. 
With the exception of ancient grazing rights for herbivores, no other domesticated animal is allowed to free roam so what's so different about cats and why should property owners have to take measures to prevent other people's cats from invading their property or affecting their lifestyle?

Although one rarely sees expensive pedigree cats free roaming, it can't be just the intrinsic value of them that prevents owners from allowing their cat to roam unsupervised as many non-pedigree cat owners also don't allow their cats to free roam so it must be down to an innate attitude and a responsibility of care of their cats rather than their value plus a healthy respect for other people as well as their cat.
That is not to say that those who allow their cats to free roam are bad pet owners, on the contrary I don't think their love of their pets differs intrinsically from those who don't allow their cats to roam...they are perhaps somewhat indifferent to and more oblivious or even naive as to the effects that their roaming cats might cause irritation of others. To cat owners such as those on this forum, with few exceptions, a cat is a wonderful lovable creature but sadly not to a large percentage of the population who's views of cats range from casual indifference to downright hatred.

I think at some point in the future, cats will be treated like dogs are these days...confined on the owner's property unless fully supervised. Cats have been around for thousands of years and have adapted to some rather extreme conditions and still thrived so adapting to confinement to a property is hardly an impossibility.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Vanessa131 said:


> I have only bitten by my own dog when we have been playing, so more of a nip. Cats however, oh my, I have been bitten by every cat I have owned, usually at tablet time or at the vets, but Bronn will walk by and bite my ankles!! Right now he is laying across my feet so I daren't move!
> 
> I do like that dogs are much more predictable as their body language is very obvious, where as cats are miniature maniacs and show fewer signs


Lol! When I first adopted Liddy she had a thing about going for ankles! It happens very rarely now I can't even remember the last time she did it but can only think she had some sort of bad experience before we got her at approx a 1yr old.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Soozi said:


> Lol! When I first adopted Liddy she had a thing about going for ankles! It happens very rarely now I can't even remember the last time she did it but can only think she had some sort of bad experience before we got her at approx a 1yr old.


I try not to walk within a paws length of any sofa's, tablets etc, you're risking your life hahaha!!!


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

I have been bitten and clawed in attackes totally unprovoked by several different cats at different times over the years
including my own. They have launched themselves at me from on walls , behind fences and one out of a bush
for just walking past them. I have also been bitten by a dog totally unprovoked. Both animals are capable of attacking unprovoked
and causing serious injury. I will admit that I should imagine the larger dog breeds would do more serious injury than a cat but
the point is that both animals are capable of attacking unprovoked and can cause serious injury.
And neither of them should be allowed to roam free.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Vanessa131 said:


> People would do the same as happens with dogs now. Leads wouldn't solve this, if that was the case dogs would never be run over, dogs would never wander into peoples gardens, dogs would never be lost etc. Nothing will solve issues, we can reduce, but we can't go beyond that as no animal is truly able to be contained. If zoo's get wild animals escaping, we have to accept even if laws did change there would still be problems.
> 
> Has anyone else seen on the news that some big cats have escaped at a zoo in Germany!


A dog escaping or slipping it's collar and running across a road isn't really the same as owners sending their cats out to fend for themselves.

Of course accidents or mishaps happen, but they're exactly that.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Rafa said:


> A dog escaping or slipping it's collar and running across a road isn't really the same as owners sending their cats out to fend for themselves.
> 
> Of course accidents or mishaps happen, but they're exactly that.


I don't if you quoted the wrong person as I haven't compared a dog not being restrained appropriately to cats being free roaming.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Vanessa131 said:


> People would do the same as happens with dogs now. Leads wouldn't solve this, if that was the case dogs would never be run over, dogs would never wander into peoples gardens, dogs would never be lost etc. Nothing will solve issues, we can reduce, but we can't go beyond that as no animal is truly able to be contained. If zoo's get wild animals escaping, we have to accept even if laws did change there would still be problems.


Dogs sometimes escape their gardens or slip their collars , yes it happens but that is totally 
different to people letting their animals out to roam where they will for as long as they like and 
pooping at will in other peoples gardens.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

A well-balanced article from Icat Care on the question of having an "indoor versus outdoor" cat.

https://icatcare.org/advice/keeping-your-cat-happy/indoors-versus-outdoors

_Quote of some excerpts :

"There's a huge part of a cat's life that we're unaware of, where it uses all its highly evolved senses and talents. It can hunt, patrol its territory, mark, sunbathe and generally indulge all the behaviours naturally programmed into its body. Inside our homes the cat is really a shadow of its potential self, with its engine and navigation system and weapons switched off. Outside it comes to life and sharpens up its talents and its body by hunting, climbing and exploring."

"The benefits of keeping the cat away from possible dangers outdoors have to be weighed against the effects on the cat's behaviour. While you won't have to put up with daily hunt offerings if your cat is kept indoors, you must balance that against the natural behaviours which your cat has missed out on and the need to provide alternative opportunity for the expression of hunting behaviours. Much will depend on the personality of the individual cat and your circumstances. "

"So there's disagreement when it comes to keeping cats indoors - safety versus natural behaviour. However, there is agreement that if a cat has to stay indoors - whether because it's too nervous to go out, because it's in a genuinely very dangerous place, because there is a law against it, or because its owner can't bear to have it put at any risk at all - then owners need to work hard to compensate for the lack of the stimulation it would get outside."
_

Plus another excellent article on "Satisfying the needs of the indoor cat", to prevent boredom, anxiety and behavioural problems. Well worth a read :

https://icatcare.org/advice/satisfying-needs-indoor-cat


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Unfortunately I cannot catproof my current garden (in ANY form), so that would be an end to my having cats. Not sure how you'd tell the difference between a pre and post law change cat, either.
> 
> I





Erenya said:


> I'm afraid I would be another one who would need to rehome my cats - or in all probability, euthanize one - if this law came into play. Situations are not always cut and dried and it is not simply a case of saying "just keep them in or cat proof" - the former is not always possible and the latter is not always feasible. It is very presumptuous to think that what works for one cat would work for another and it is borderline rude to make sweeping claims about people not caring for their cats in allowing them to roam.


As I alreadt said if the law were to change it would have to be "phased in"starting with compulsory microchipping 
Lets just start with kittens , I'm sure no one is going to disagree that an owned kitten shouldnt be out free roaming under the age of six months.
if as an example the law came into force on the 1st of January that would mean that all kittens born 6 months prior to that date (1st July ) would not be allowed to "free roam" and would need to be confined to an owners property unless under supervision/care of owner or responsible person .
Any cats over that age would be exempt from the law of confinement but if the cats were to cause damage while free roaming the owners would be held responsible.

The above is just an example of how it might work.
When tail docking of dogs was outlawed it didnt stop those with docked tails from being shown* if *they were docked before the law came into force so I dont see why if it is worked out properly a similar approach wouldnt work with cats.
With microchips comes age and owners so it wouldnt be too difficult to identify a cat that had been allowed out after the law came into force .
Obviously a sudden change would be unfair and unworkable but I do think the law needs to be changed for all concerned.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

buffie said:


> As I alreadt said if the law were to change it would have to be "phased in"starting with compulsory microchipping
> Lets just start with kittens , I'm sure no one is going to disagree that an owned kitten shouldnt be out free roaming under the age of six months.
> if as an example the law came into force on the 1st of January that would mean that all kittens born 6 months prior to that date (1st July ) would not be allowed to "free roam" and would need to be confined to an owners property unless under supervision/care of owner or responsible person .
> Any cats over that age would be exempt from the law of confinement but if the cats were to cause damage while free roaming the owners would be held responsible.
> ...


I'm always surprised by what people do. Years ago my neighbours brought a pretty little fluffy grey kitten and within a few weeks it was allowed outside, it was well under six months. Within a very short time the poor little thing was killed by a car. We live in a village which is pretty quiet, but cars do come through and some are going at quite a pace despite the narrow roads.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Siskin said:


> I'm always surprised by what people do. Years ago my neighbours brought a pretty little fluffy grey kitten and within a few weeks it was allowed outside, it was well under six months. Within a very short time the poor little thing was killed by a car. We live in a village which is pretty quiet, but cars do come through and some are going at quite a pace despite the narrow roads.


Sadly you are correct ,whats even worse is that they often don't bother to neuter either


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

buffie said:


> As I alreadt said if the law were to change it would have to be "phased in"starting with compulsory microchipping
> Lets just start with kittens , I'm sure no one is going to disagree that an owned kitten shouldnt be out free roaming under the age of six months.
> if as an example the law came into force on the 1st of January that would mean that all kittens born 6 months prior to that date (1st July ) would not be allowed to "free roam" and would need to be confined to an owners property unless under supervision/care of owner or responsible person .
> Any cats over that age would be exempt from the law of confinement but if the cats were to cause damage while free roaming the owners would be held responsible.
> ...


This is what I was going to suggest too, a phased implementation.

Of course some cats, ones that are used to going outside, would not cope with suddenly being indoors. That is not what I suggested at all, I do not believe that would be fair on the cats. I do think, however, that kittens should be kept indoors, or in safe gardens, as they will never know any different.

We mustn't forget that regions of Australia and New Zealand have laws in place to prevent cats from free-roaming, to protect wildlife. They are, by and large, very successful laws. Public attitude to cats over there is completely different too. Our cats aren't so far removed from their Australasian cousins that they would suddenly not cope being kept indoors from birth.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@StormyThai 
Dog bite stats vs cat bites? I know you are a dog lover but it is pretty obvious dogs are more a danger to humans than cats, if they are aggressive and some dogs are, domesticated, semi domesticated or feral. They show territorial aggression to humans at times. Blinders on does not erase reality.
I would rather pass an unknown cat on the street vs an unknown dog, I think most people would as well. The cat if stray would probably run and the dog, odds are you may be bit. 
Speaking as someone who has passed packs of strays and individual strays dogs and cats. My OH was bitten by a random dog last year who came up and bit him, he needed to do a course of rabies shots. I try to avoid stray dogs, especially in groups or even what look like pets running loose and is not unusual and owners are not unoften inattentive.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Summercat said:


> @StormyThai
> Dog bite stats vs cat bites? I know you are a dog lover but it is pretty obvious dogs are more a danger to humans than cats, if they are aggressive and some dogs are, domesticated, semi domesticated or feral. They show territorial aggression to humans at times. Blinders on does not erase reality.
> I would rather pass an unknown cat on the street vs an unknown dog, I think most people would as well. The cat if stray would probably run and the dog, odds are you may be bit.
> Speaking as someone who has passed packs of strays and individual strays dogs and cats. My OH was bitten by a random dog last year who came up and bit him, he needed to do a course of rabies shots. I try to avoid stray dogs, especially in groups or even what look like pets running loose and is not unusual and owners are not unoften inattentive.


Here in the UK it is rare to come across free roaming dogs,since the law changed making it illegal for a dog to be out without its owner.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@buffie 
I know, which is why I agree dogs should not be loose as they are more a danger than cats.

I don't think it is as simple as well if dogs are not allowed out cats should not be either, which seemed to be the arguement of some.

Cat poo or not, as was said dogs often bark which is a nuisance, humans and noise can be a nuisance as well. We can't legislate away every nuisance but try to minimize it. I am all for cats being in cat proof gardens or runs but realize it is not affordable or possible for everyone. A little cat poo would not bother me. They generally bury it and dogs often dig it up to eat it. Such is life.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Summercat said:


> Dog bite stats vs cat bites?


Why would you need that?
I wasn't comparing the two, nor was I saying that cat bites are worse...All I said was that the two species are capable of causing damage when out of control.
Cats can bite and scratch causing serious injuries just the same as dogs can bite causing serious injuries.
Dogs can crap everywhere when they stray, cats can crap everywhere when they stray...both species poop can cause humans harm.

I would just like to point out that I am an animal lover (rather than just a dog lover) who has had outdoor and indoor cats in the past, the only reason I don't have a cat now is because I'm not in a position to cat proof the garden. I do not think cats should roam any more than dogs should.


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

Trixie1 said:


> Hi All
> 
> My very unpleasant neighbour has just put spikes on his fence to stop my cat going over, now I understand that some people do not want other peoples cats in their gardens, but is there really any need to go this far. Worried that Sam my rescue cat will hurt himself!! Anybody else have this problem!!


How despicable. I can understand him not wanting cats in his garden but this is going too far. Could you erect that cat fencing with the 45 degree angle to stop your cat getting over. Can't remember exactly what it's called now, but probably in the sticky thread on here about Cat Proofed Gardens. 
Hope you get something sorted, that is just spiteful and dangerous.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Cully said:


> that is just spiteful and dangerous


Why is it spiteful?

Apparently, the spikes are the plastic kind so won't harm the cat, but maybe the neighbour is sick and tired of having cats trash his garden.

He does have every right to put what he likes on top of HIS fence.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Cully said:


> How despicable. I can understand him not wanting cats in his garden but this is going too far. Could you erect that cat fencing with the 45 degree angle to stop your cat getting over. Can't remember exactly what it's called now, but probably in the sticky thread on here about Cat Proofed Gardens.
> Hope you get something sorted, that is just spiteful and dangerous.


TBH if I thought that they would deter the neighbour hood cats that enjoy coming over my 6' high fence annoying Meeko in his run and generally being a PITA then I would have them too , but from what I've read they are as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike but definitely not dangerous.


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Why is it spiteful?
> 
> Apparently, the spikes are the plastic kind so won't harm the cat, but maybe the neighbour is sick and tired of having cats trash his garden.
> 
> He does have every right to put what he likes on top of HIS fence.


It's only my opinion. I would have thought that any decent neighbour would have tried to discuss the problem for a mutually accetable solution. It's a bit nasty to just go ahead and erect something that is potentially harmful. 
Didn't mean to ruffle your fur, just don't like the thought of animals getting hurt.


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

buffie said:


> TBH if I thought that they would deter the neighbour hood cats that enjoy coming over my 6' high fence annoying Meeko in his run and generally being a PITA then I would have them too , but from what I've read they are as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike but definitely not dangerous.


I've never seen that type before, just the angled fencing which puts cats off from even attempting to climb over.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Keeping unwanted cats out of gardens is much more difficult than keeping cats *in* gardens which I think is why many get frustrated by the constant "visitors" that they don't want.


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

buffie said:


> Keeping unwanted cats out of gardens is much more difficult than keeping cats *in* gardens which I think is why many get frustrated by the constant "visitors" that they don't want.


Sigh! I agree. Maybe it's not so much the cat themselves but the gifts they leave buried amongst the flower beds. Fortunately Misty still uses her litter tray even though she is usually outdoors, weather permitting. I'm sure she does her business outdoors too sometimes, but I know she uses her box mostly.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

buffie said:


> As I alreadt said if the law were to change it would have to be "phased in"starting with compulsory microchipping
> Lets just start with kittens , I'm sure no one is going to disagree that an owned kitten shouldnt be out free roaming under the age of six months.
> if as an example the law came into force on the 1st of January that would mean that all kittens born 6 months prior to that date (1st July ) would not be allowed to "free roam" and would need to be confined to an owners property unless under supervision/care of owner or responsible person .
> Any cats over that age would be exempt from the law of confinement but if the cats were to cause damage while free roaming the owners would be held responsible.


Right, so I get to keep my current cats, but unless I can afford to move to a property where I can pratically and affordably Alcatraz the garden, I can't have any more. I could, however, get a couple of dogs just fine, given my small garden has a 6 foot fence all around and dogs can't climb. Given that one of the reasons I have cats is I live alone and have a full time job, that wouldn't really be responsible, would it? As an aside, dogs are not allowed to free roam, but it is possible to take them for walks in an orderly fashion and let them run around. Many cats won't entertain the idea of going for walks, but walking cats in itself raises an entertaining question - what happens if a dog on a walk sees a cat on a walk on the opposite side of the road, tries to chase it and gets hit by a car. Or hurts/is hurt by the cat? Do you blame the dog owner for not having control of the dog, or the cat owner for triggering the situation by taking their cat for a walk?

Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things I would support responsibilty wise. Keeping kittens in for at least six months, preferably a year (as I did with Lori, and we did harness introductions to the garden too) would be a good start. Making litter trays mandatory - mine come home to use them. Compulsory neutering. Banning cat flaps. Banning food with grain and vegetable matter in it. And, believe it or not, encouraging catproofing where appropriate, or even enforcing it where they have been PROVEN non-trivial complaints about a particular cat.

I also do the best I can to be considerate with my own cats. They are both neutered. I don't have a cat flap, so they can't roam at will (my decision) - I have to open the back door for them - and they are always in at night. I maintain multiple indoor litter trays, which they come home to use. I feed raw and grain free food so their 'offerings' are as pleasant as possible (hard and virtually odourless). I have toys galore (though, as previously mentioned, Charlie doesn't really play). They are trained in recall, and it even works most of the time. None of my neighbours have a problem with my cats. I sometimes have to take measures to stop them digging in my own veg borders when I've just sown them, but that's so easy to do I don't even think about it as a hassle. The people next door have to do a lot more to keep their dogs off their veg patch! But mandatory catproofing for all would come with a whole load of side issues attached, most of which I suspect wouldn't be thought about until too late.

For example, would all forms of catproofing be totally exempt from planning laws? Would it be illegal for rental property owners or councils to ban catproofing in non-communal gardens? Would it be illegal to damage or remove catproofing where a cat is in residence, even if cat owning neighbours attached it to your fence? What happens when neighbours who think the netting type of catproofing (which, lets face it, IS an eyesore but is all most people will be able to afford) ruins the view from their own garden decide to complain? Should all new properties be cat proofed - or designed to be able to be and have 6 foot fencing - as a matter of course? Should you get grants to catproof your garden, given that it potentially costs thousands eve if you already have a six foot fence? Should Tree Protection Orders be inapplicable for cat proofing purposes, particularly if a neighbours tree overhangs your garden?

Would there be catproofing exceptions for farm and barn cats? I can imagine trying to cat proof a farm estate or stables would be cost prohibitive and hard to maintain, and there are still no better rural pest controllers than cats.

What about cats who simply are not happy even confined to a garden? And they will exist, even amongst those confined from birth - don't we have a member on here who has had to remove cat proofing because their cat was doing dangerous things to get out of the garden?

And this is only the stuff I can think of offhand. I suppose mandatory confining of cats would be a good way to reduce cat ownership in general and moggies in particular, given that unless a cat is 100% happy indoors then generally the cost of catproofing will restrict ownership to better off people with suitable gardens. But I'd miss having fluffballs in my life simply because my house and garden are built wrong for catproofing.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Right, so I get to keep my current cats, but unless I can afford to move to a property where I can pratically and affordably Alcatraz the garden, I can't have any more. I could, however, get a couple of dogs just fine, given my small garden has a 6 foot fence all around and dogs can't climb. Given that one of the reasons I have cats is I live alone and have a full time job, that wouldn't really be responsible, would it? As an aside, dogs are not allowed to free roam, but it is possible to take them for walks in an orderly fashion and let them run around. Many cats won't entertain the idea of going for walks, but walking cats in itself raises an entertaining question - what happens if a dog on a walk sees a cat on a walk on the opposite side of the road, tries to chase it and gets hit by a car. Or hurts/is hurt by the cat? Do you blame the dog owner for not having control of the dog, or the cat owner for triggering the situation by taking their cat for a walk?
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things I would support responsibilty wise. Keeping kittens in for at least six months, preferably a year (as I did with Lori, and we did harness introductions to the garden too) would be a good start. Making litter trays mandatory - mine come home to use them. Compulsory neutering. Banning cat flaps. Banning food with grain and vegetable matter in it. And, believe it or not, encouraging catproofing where appropriate, or even enforcing it where they have been PROVEN non-trivial complaints about a particular cat.
> 
> ...


Like many pets if the situation you live in isn't suitable for that animal then it may be that having it is not going to possible .
The problem I see with this argument is that if you are starting out with a 12/13 week old kitten that has never been "free roaming" it doesn't know that it is missing anything .
I have never owned a free roaming cat and never will as I don't think the world is a safe place for them now and cant imagine opening a door to the big wide world and just letting one wander off.
I get your point about your current cat not coping but I honestly don't see that it applies to kittens who have never experienced the outdoors.
Times change and attitudes and laws change too,there are many things we are no longer able to do or at least would be unwise to do so I think it is time that the ancient law or lack of it where cats are concerned needs to be looked at.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

buffie said:


> As I alreadt said if the law were to change it would have to be "phased in"starting with compulsory microchipping
> Lets just start with kittens , I'm sure no one is going to disagree that an owned kitten shouldnt be out free roaming under the age of six months.
> if as an example the law came into force on the 1st of January that would mean that all kittens born 6 months prior to that date (1st July ) would not be allowed to "free roam" and would need to be confined to an owners property unless under supervision/care of owner or responsible person .
> Any cats over that age would be exempt from the law of confinement but if the cats were to cause damage while free roaming the owners would be held responsible.
> ...


It's an interesting idea, but it would be impossible to police and it would have far reaching consequences.
1.) When you refer to tail docking as a phased introduction, you only actually referred to the aspect of showing those dogs, which is basically how we interact with/view the dog, not anything to do with the dog itself - This very different to expecting thousands of cats to suddenly have a behavioural change. 
2.) Two years after the ban, how is anyone going to be able to tell the difference between a 2 year old cat who cannot legally be outside and a 3 year old cat who can. For about 18 years, you'd need 'cat inspectors' who would have to scan the chip of EVERY cat on the street to find out if it was a legitimate cat or an illegal cat - the expense of this alone would make the plan impossible
3.) there would be mass euthanizing of any cat that cannot accept being an indoor cat. The simple fact is that a lot of cats would not be able to accept being in indoor cat, and yet a lot of people would not be able to afford cat proofing their garden - or like me are legally not permitted to do so. The effect = Those cats that need outdoor, controlled access would become near impossible to rehome and they would spend the rest of their lives in a shelter (which by definition of their need to not be enclosed would be absolute cruelty), or would be euthanized as they would be impossible to rehome
4.) We cannot compare the ease by which someone encloses a dog in their garden by the ease in which we can enclose cats - most dogs cannot scale a 6ft fence with relative ease. Enclosing a dog needs a fence - enclosing a cat needs specialist equipment - even even with that the b*ggers can get out!
5.) I do not understand why people think that what applies to dogs, applies to cats (and vice versa) - they are different animals, with different needs and different behavioural characteristics.
6.) Some cats will NEVER accept being an indoor cat. I do not personally believe the blanket statement that it you never let a kitten out, they will not want to go out. As a 5 month old, Darwin forced open a window that was an inch open and leapt out of a 1st story window. She'd never been out, but she was desperate to get out - both my cats from kitten age would try and escape at every point - at some point they were going to succeed , there was no other way that was going to go...

I do honesty agree with may of the points that indoor only campaigners say, and I honestly wish that my two - and in fact all cats - would be happy to be indoor only, but I just do not think that is the case now and realistically, I do not think that will ever be the case. I don't have the answers, I just honestly recognise that most people are doing the best by their pets


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> Right, so I get to keep my current cats, but unless I can afford to move to a property where I can pratically and affordably Alcatraz the garden, I can't have any more. I could, however, get a couple of dogs just fine, given my small garden has a 6 foot fence all around and dogs can't climb. Given that one of the reasons I have cats is I live alone and have a full time job, that wouldn't really be responsible, would it? As an aside, dogs are not allowed to free roam, but it is possible to take them for walks in an orderly fashion and let them run around. Many cats won't entertain the idea of going for walks, but walking cats in itself raises an entertaining question - what happens if a dog on a walk sees a cat on a walk on the opposite side of the road, tries to chase it and gets hit by a car. Or hurts/is hurt by the cat? Do you blame the dog owner for not having control of the dog, or the cat owner for triggering the situation by taking their cat for a walk?
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things I would support responsibilty wise. Keeping kittens in for at least six months, preferably a year (as I did with Lori, and we did harness introductions to the garden too) would be a good start. Making litter trays mandatory - mine come home to use them. Compulsory neutering. Banning cat flaps. Banning food with grain and vegetable matter in it. And, believe it or not, encouraging catproofing where appropriate, or even enforcing it where they have been PROVEN non-trivial complaints about a particular cat.
> 
> ...


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Obviously we are too far apart to ever be able to agree about this but I hope that in the not too distant future the law will change to make owners of free roaming cats more responsible for the actions of their cats who wander on/in to gardens/homes of those who would prefer not to have them there.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Making litter trays mandatory - mine come home to use them.


You say your cat comes home to use the litter tray and I do not dispute that at all but you do NOT know 
if it has also used someones garden whilst it was out roaming. A previous neighbor of mine swore blind 
her cat never pooped outside and always came home to use the litter trays provided. The said cat was seen many times 
pooping in peoples garden including me and mine. You do not know what your cat is doing while it is roaming around unsupervised.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

@Rafa I had to scroll through your post to find your reply buried in the quote but I agree with you totally


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

buffie said:


> Like many pets if the situation you live in isn't suitable for that animal then it may be that having it is not going to possible .
> The problem I see with this argument is that if you are starting out with a 12/13 week old kitten that has never been "free roaming" it doesn't know that it is missing anything .
> I have never owned a free roaming cat and never will as I don't think the world is a safe place for them now and cant imagine opening a door to the big wide world and just letting one wander off.
> I get your point about your current cat not coping but I honestly don't see that it applies to kittens who have never experienced the outdoors.
> Times change and attitudes and laws change too,there are many things we are no longer able to do or at least would be unwise to do so I think it is time that the ancient law or lack of it where cats are concerned needs to be looked at.


Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree. As far as I am concerned my house and area is very suitable for cats - quiet cul-de-sac, cat friendly neighbours (many have their own). And whilst human attitudes might change, the instincts of a cat don't necessarily agree with us.

I also don't buy that any cat who is raised indoors will necessarily be happy being indoors only - we get plenty of people asking questions on here because their only ever indoors cat is desparately trying every trick in the book to get outside. I'm glad you have been lucky with yours and never experienced it, but it's not an instinct that is going to be bred out of all cats overnight just because we desire it. Perhaps that is another argument for having pedigree cats only, as it is easier to breed in certain traits.

As to younglings, I did have Lorelei from a kitten (she is 5 this year), and she was kept in for the first year and then introduced to the garden on a harness and trained in recall first. Would she have been happy as an indoor cat? Possibly she would, as she doesn't NEED to go out in the way Charlie-girl does, and still doesn't care much for going out unless the weather is fine, and usually comes back much sooner than Charlie except in summer, but with a tiny open plan house with no back porch, no cat flap (or room for one - and I don't like them anyway) and an outdoors-needy cat already living there I didn't really have any other option about her going out. But I do my best to make sure they are no nuisance to anyone, and I've never had complaints - isn't that enough?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Erenya said:


> It's an interesting idea, but it would be impossible to police and it would have far reaching consequences.
> 1.) When you refer to tail docking as a phased introduction, you only actually referred to the aspect of showing those dogs, which is basically how we interact with/view the dog, not anything to do with the dog itself - This very different to expecting thousands of cats to suddenly have a behavioural change.


The reason I mentioned tail docking was purely as an example of how "phasing in" a change in the law could be implemented I was not trying to compare the 2.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Again I will refer to Australia and New Zealand, and how their indoor only laws are very successful. Not everyone in those countries can afford cat-proofing, yet most still manage to keep their cats indoors successfully. Cats are highly, highly adaptable, and very few would struggle to be indoor only, comparatively.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> I also don't buy that any cat who is raised indoors will necessarily be happy being indoors only - we get plenty of people asking questions on here because their only ever indoors cat is desparately trying every trick in the book to get outside.


All animals would like to roam free, it is the natural instinct and that includes dogs,
which is why people have to have fences and gates that the dog can not get out of.
Most dogs will do anything it can to get out digging under , jumping over inadequate fencing
but they are not allowed to do so. Some do succeed at times but the owner has to go find them before they get picked up
and the owner prosecuted for it roaming free and or for it pooping somewhere and it not being picked up.
Cats CAN be trained if done from kittens the same as dogs and I am sorry I do not mean this offensive in any way
but if you can not secure your garden against your chosen animal getting out or do not have the time to walk or excercise
it then you should not have said animal weather it be a cat or a dog .
Just because owners do not get complaints does not mean their animal is not bothering people,
not every one knows where every animal belongs and some people are not good at confrontation
There is no reason whatsoever that the laws for dogs can not also apply to cats.
I gave up owning cats because I moved around a lot and could not afford to cat proof my garden
every time I moved


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Rosie64 said:


> All animals would like to roam free, it is the natural instinct and that includes dogs,
> which is why people have to have fences and gates that the dog can not get out of.
> Most dogs will do anything it can to get out digging under , jumping over inadequate fencing
> but they are not allowed to do so. Some do succeed at times but the owner has to go find them before they get picked up
> ...


Fine. I'll book Charlie in to the vets for PTS next week, then, seeing as I'm an inadequate owner. Lorelei can take her chances in rescue.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> Fine. I'll book Charlie in to the vets for PTS next week, then, seeing as I'm an inadequate owner. Lorelei can take her chances in rescue.


I understand you are upset that someone is disagreeing with you in an argument, but joking about having your cat rehomed and even PTS is just not funny. People face that situation for real every day and it is devastating. So please don't pretend you are going to do that to score cheap points in an argument. You are trivialising other people's heartbreak.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Fine. I'll book Charlie in to the vets for PTS next week, then, seeing as I'm an inadequate owner. Lorelei can take her chances in rescue.


The cat laws are not going to change overnight, IF they ever get changed at all it would probably take years
and at the age you say your cats are it would probably not effect them any way so do you not think you
are being a little over dramatic with that statement .Besides my post was not aimed at any one person but all in general


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Can we keep things civil please...


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

CuddleMonster said:


> I understand you are upset that someone is disagreeing with you in an argument, but joking about having your cat rehomed and even PTS is just not funny. People face that situation for real every day and it is devastating. So please don't pretend you are going to do that to score cheap points in an argument. You are trivialising other people's heartbreak.


Who said I was joking? I am very, very upset here, and at the time I was as far from joking as you get. I've calmed down a little now, but I'm not going to hide how such comments made me feel. Getting things right is an important part of life for me (I'm high functioning autistic), and you have no idea how deep such comments cut.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

I sincerely hope that the current and next few governments will not try and change the law relating to free roaming cats. This is mostly because I see many other issues that I hope would take preference. Starting with - but not restricted to:

Mandatory chipping of cats
Mandatory chip checking of all pets killed by RTA
Introduction of pet breeding licences and mandatory neutering of non breeding pets
Stamping out of blood sports
Removal of non-stun slaughter methods
Reintroduction of dog licences
Tougher sentences for those participating in dog fighting
Banning of puppy and kitten Farms
Banning of uncontrolled pet imports from overseas
MUCH tougher sentences for animal cruelty
More funding for animal charities

Looking at that list, I think some cat owners letting their cats out is honestly not as much of a concern...


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

If you knew a ban on free roaming was coming, couldn't you gradually get a cat used to a more restricted life style. Laws rarely change over night and you usually get months or even years notice once an Act of Parliament is passed.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Who said I was joking? I am very, very upset here, and at the time I was as far from joking as you get. I've calmed down a little now, but I'm not going to hide how such comments made me feel. Getting things right is an important part of life for me (I'm high functioning autistic), and you have no idea how deep such comments cut.


If it is something that I have said that has upset you so much then I apologise sincerely for it , 
but nothing I have said has been aimed at you or anyone in particular but at all cat owners, 
then all pet owners in general.
The only comment I have made directly to you is about being just a little over dramatic in your statement


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> Who said I was joking? I am very, very upset here, and at the time I was as far from joking as you get. I've calmed down a little now, but I'm not going to hide how such comments made me feel. Getting things right is an important part of life for me (I'm high functioning autistic), and you have no idea how deep such comments cut.


Another PF member has suggested that bringing in such a law might be a good idea. That is a very different thing from the government deciding to bring in such a law and even if they did, it would take many years to bring into being. So it hardly calls for you to destroy your cat next week.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> Who said I was joking? I am very, very upset here, and at the time I was as far from joking as you get. I've calmed down a little now, but I'm not going to hide how such comments made me feel. Getting things right is an important part of life for me (I'm high functioning autistic), and you have no idea how deep such comments cut.


As a high functioning autistic myself, I can understand where you're coming from. I don't think you have got things wrong, necessarily. I think you've done what you felt was right in your situation.

I think the issue is the general public's attitude towards cats. Not you personally. As we know from this forum, people are shocked at the suggestion of keeping cats indoors, when in reality most cats would be absolutely fine indoors. Of course this isn't the same for every cat, but in the grand scheme of things, those that would adapt or be happy indoors vastly outweigh those who would not.

No one is suggesting you put your cats down, I think all of us are horrified at the thought. What is being suggested is a changes in law regarding free roaming to greatly reduce free roaming. It's not specific to anyone's individual cat.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Erenya said:


> _Snip_
> Mandatory chip checking of all pets killed by RTA


This bit would be largely pointless, if all pets were kept indoors


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> This bit would be largely pointless, if all pets were kept indoors


Well not really because animals that want out sometimes find ways of doing so weather that be cat or dog
so if they are chipped and god forbid anything did happen at least owners can be found and notified


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> Well not really because animals that want out sometimes find ways of doing so weather that be cat or dog
> so if they are chipped and god forbid anything did happen at least owners can be found and notified


Yes, but it wouldn't be a daily occurrence like it is now. There would be fewer RTAs so it wouldn't be as large of an issue as it is today


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Yes, but it wouldn't be a daily occurrence like it is now. There would be fewer RTAs so it wouldn't be as large of an issue as it is today


I quite agree but there are always the few escape artists also people that think they are above the law and 
let their cats / dogs out regardless so personally, only my own view, is that microchipping of ALL pets is a good idea


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> I quite agree but there are always the few escape artists also people that think they are above the law and
> let their cats / dogs out regardless so personally, only my own view, is that microchipping of ALL pets is a good idea


I agree


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> Who said I was joking? I am very, very upset here, and at the time I was as far from joking as you get. I've calmed down a little now, but I'm not going to hide how such comments made me feel. Getting things right is an important part of life for me (I'm high functioning autistic), and you have no idea how deep such comments cut.


I don't believe any of the posts on this thread are aimed at you. It's a discussion on the pros and cons of free roaming cats.

There really is no need for you to take it so personally and begin making threats about having your cat put to sleep.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> She won't walk on a harness


Mine throw themselves on to their backs and use the lead as a kickeroo if I even try.:Cat


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Erenya said:


> I sincerely hope that the current and next few governments will not try and change the law relating to free roaming cats. This is mostly because I see many other issues that I hope would take preference. Starting with - but not restricted to:
> 
> Mandatory chipping of cats
> Mandatory chip checking of all pets killed by RTA
> ...


Excellent post.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Quoted from article by Sarah Hartwell of Messybeast.com :

_"Our pet cats are genetically virtually identical to their wild living ancestors, as demonstrated by the success of feral cats and the ability of cats to produce fertile hybrid offspring with African and European Wildcats. They have not evolved to live purely indoors and though some breeds have been bred to be placid or indoor-oriented, most cats retain their wild instincts and a natural curiosity about the outdoor environment. Proponents of the indoor only lifestyle claim that the outdoor environment is now so unnatural as to be unsuitable for cats. This may be true in some areas, but should not be applied to all cats since local conditions vary greatly.

Can a link be established between an indoors-only lifestyle and behavioural problems? Quite possibly, according to British behaviourists. British behaviourists report more problems in indoor cats than in outdoor cats. There are proportionally more pet shrinks in the USA than in Britain (and most cats in the USA are kept indoors), as cats display 'displacement' behaviour when their natural behaviour is thwarted. _

_
The captivity (of indoor cats) may be more luxurious than the cages of old-style zoos, but the cats are nevertheless captives and their captivity causes conflict between what they would like to do (hunt, explore, climb, scratch, hide, establish territory) and what their environment permits them to do. This results in abnormal or repetitive behaviour (pacing, over-grooming, self-mutilation, tail-chasing, Pica) and the abnormal behaviour may take over from normal behaviours.

Indoor-only is the predominating lifestyle (for kittens and cats) in the USA and behavioural problems are cited as major factors in cats being relinquished to shelters or euthanised. It is true that cats with access to outdoors can more easily and more fully express natural instincts, burn off energy and vent any aggression (albeit on other cats or on prey).

Some natural (feline) behaviours can turn into obsessive behaviours in a stressed cat. The stress may be due to the indoor-only lifestyle not suiting the individual cat. The behaviour may initially have been an outlet to release energy or tension; the reward of "de-stressing" leads the cat to repeat the behaviour more and more often. Eventually it ceases to act as stress release and other aberrant or compulsive behaviours begin. The behaviours tend to be carryovers from kitten-hood (sucking on things), exaggerated territorial/hunting behaviour (spraying, ankle-grabbing) and over-attachment/separation anxiety. Books on behaviour problems, commenting on the link to lifestyle, have been written by biologist/naturalist Roger Tabor (Bristol, UK), Nicholas Dodman (Tufts, USA), Peter Neville (Association of Pet Behavioural Counsellors, UK), Claire Bessant (Feline Advisory Bureau).

An indoor-only cat is trapped with its stress factors....Somehow it needs to reduce its stress. One way of doing so is to act out a response - to attack its owner or to flee and hide under the bed. Other behaviours get co-opted into the repertoire as ways of relieving stress and anxiety - refuge in kittenish behaviour, destructive behaviour towards objects - known as displacement behaviour."

_


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

before anyone reads this, please note I have an autistic son who has two indoor only cats, who have been indoor only from 6 weeks ( yes we didnt know better then)
ok so we allow free range cats to continue to do so, what do we non cat people ( i would never hurt one) get driven to do
scarers dont work
spray them with water? if i said i did that to my dog, to discourage unwanted behaviour, everyone would be up in arms (and rightly so), so why would i want to do that to a cat?
orange/lemon peel? garlic granules? lion poo? egg shells? we all know some cats will defy all old wives tails
at the moment I have no problems with unwanted cats, my dogs make sure of that, even the cat friendly ones wont allow a cat in the garden, thats theirs

what are we left with though? the law, as it is, says they can free roam, owners threaten us with their pets being pts? apparently some gardens are so small they cant even have a teeny shed/aviary put in them or the owners cant fit rollers to the top of fences, plastic spikes are no deterrent

so me, if i was ever to have a cat problem, and, repeatedly talking to the owners resolved nothing ( i would try upto 10 or more times)
ill use these
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/bird-brained-po-79754.jpg
or, if push really came to shove
Id get another dog
or, as a very very last result
Id use a humane trap and take it to the local shelter


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I would not necessarily take a website written by a single woman, whose bias is questionable at best, as gospel.

This is going rather around in circles


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

chillminx said:


> Quoted from article by Sarah Hartwell of Messybeast.com :
> 
> _"Our pet cats are genetically virtually identical to their wild living ancestors, as demonstrated by the success of feral cats and the ability of cats to produce fertile hybrid offspring with African and European Wildcats. They have not evolved to live purely indoors and though some breeds have been bred to be placid or indoor-oriented, most cats retain their wild instincts and a natural curiosity about the outdoor environment. Proponents of the indoor only lifestyle claim that the outdoor environment is now so unnatural as to be unsuitable for cats. This may be true in some areas, but should not be applied to all cats since local conditions vary greatly.
> 
> ...


......and your point is what ?

If its the fact that in another thread I linked to this website as a favourite it doesn't automatically follow that I agree chapter and verse with everything written in it.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Rufus15 - yeah that's often what discussions do,!! LOL 

Of course the Messy Beast website is not "gospel" !! It is the experiences of a very knowledgeable, well read woman who has done masses of research. But I doubt with her good rep she'd be too bothered by being 'dissed' on a forum.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

buffie said:


> ......and your point is what ?
> 
> If its the fact that in another thread I linked to this website as a favourite it doesn't automatically follow that I agree chapter and verse with everything written in it.


My point Buffie is that I like the cut of Sarah Hartwell's gib. That's all


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

This again?

It would be extremely difficult to police any laws on free-roaming cats, appropriate as they may be. We'd still have problems with strays and ferals as well, of course.

The people who annoy me the most are those who actively want their cats to toilet away from their property. They ask when and how they can ditch the indoor litter trays, and they boot the cat outside to toilet. Selfish idiots.

I would argue strongly against any immediate ban on all cats free-roaming. While the vast majority (all?) of cats can be raised to live happily indoors in an appropriate environment, there are genuinely cats out there who would not withstand being restricted where they were previously allowed out*. Restricting these cats would have a serious negative impact on their physical and emotional health.

Such a ban would have to be staggered somehow, and I've no idea how that would be executed or if it would even be workable.

*Of course, some previously free-roaming cats adapt perfectly well to being restricted.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> before anyone reads this, please note I have an autistic son who has two indoor only cats, who have been indoor only from 6 weeks ( yes we didnt know better then)
> ok so we allow free range cats to continue to do so, what do we non cat people ( i would never hurt one) get driven to do
> scarers dont work
> spray them with water? if i said i did that to my dog, to discourage unwanted behaviour, everyone would be up in arms (and rightly so), so why would i want to do that to a cat?
> ...


Those metal spikes are illegal. Local councils can use their powers to require people to remove them from their boundaries.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> This again?>>>>>>.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

chillminx said:


>


I've said my piece and staying out of it now! Lol! Will still read what others have to say I think this debate could go on for eternity and beyond. :Cat Unless it gets closed!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm sure it will get closed eventually. They always are.

Until then, what do you call a hen that stares at lettuce?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> This again?
> 
> It would be extremely difficult to police any laws on free-roaming cats, appropriate as they may be. We'd still have problems with strays and ferals as well, of course.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone would expect an immediate ban on all free roaming cats as it is obviously not going to be possible to change the life style of a cat used to having freedom , but as you have stated your self the vast majority could be raised to live happily indoors provided they have the correct environment.
The world outside is changing and unfortunately cats are more at risk now than ever from the dangers and the changing attitudes of the non cat owning public.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

chillminx said:


> Those metal spikes are illegal. Local councils can use their powers to require people to remove them from their boundaries.


I know, my aunt used to have one of those victorian walls with the glass embedded in the top, even worse! Even though I also know some councils use them, themselves, to deter pigeons ( which is where the photo came from)
I cant remember the word I want, but I was trying to show the extremes some people MAY be driven to, IF, cat owners dont regulate themselves
I know I used the first person, but i wouldnt do any of these, not even the dog bit, as I would never be without a dog anyway

Btw, on BH sunday I saw a lovely 9 month old bengal taking her owner for a walk around the local park ( no dogs allowed)the slave was being very sensible and allowing the cat to roam at will, whilst holding the lead on a slack. Must admit, for the time I was watching, he ( or rather the cat) was a a bit of a babe magnet, shame most of those babes were teenagers and younger:Hilarious


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I'm sure it will get closed eventually. They always are.
> 
> Until then, what do you call a hen that stares at lettuce?


Lol! You got some old Christmas crackers from somewhere!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Yes, I believe that most (I hesitate to say 'all' only because things aren't black and white in real life, but I probably could say all) cats can be habituated to an indoor lifestyle if kept that way from birth.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Soozi said:


> Lol! You got some old Christmas crackers from somewhere!


I don't hear much guessing going on!


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Sees a salad :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

CHICKEN sees a salad.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Yes, I believe that most (I hesitate to say 'all' only because things aren't black and white in real life, but I probably could say all) cats can be habituated to an indoor lifestyle if kept that way from birth.


Even my adult-when-rescued strays had no trouble adjusting. In fact one of them had no interest in even coming out into my protected cat proofed yard. She used to sit in the window and watch me and the other cats, but had no interest in joining us for many months.

I cheated on the riddle, but if the answer I saw is correct, you should have used the word chicken rather than hen. 

(edit) Never mind I see someone beat me to it. lol


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> CHICKEN sees a salad.


Argh!


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## 5r6ubertbe6y (Dec 5, 2017)

jasperthecat said:


> The problem is that whenever this emotive issue arises, there are always lots of suggestions on how one might ameliorate the situation or make compromises or deploy various devices but no one seems to address the underlying problem. Ultimately, the only answer is DON'T allow the cat to leave the boundaries of the owner's property. That is the only true solution to almost all issues.
> No one can argue that a cat isn't safer when kept on one's own property! Once a cat strays beyond the boundaries of the owner's property unsupervised, the risks to its safety and well-being rise exponentially, depending upon the location, not to mention a possible cause of irritation to others.
> With the exception of ancient grazing rights for herbivores, no other domesticated animal is allowed to free roam so what's so different about cats and why should property owners have to take measures to prevent other people's cats from invading their property or affecting their lifestyle?
> 
> ...


It seems that the general consensus in this country is to let cats roam. I think it will take a long time to change the consensus. I know that there has been no real public debate about this.
I notice that Downing street has 5 "hunting cats" . Larry is "Chief Mouser". So, it hardly inspires people to keep cats indoors when the UK government advocate outdoor cats.
I notice that the major charities advocate it also. So UK cat owners are receiving mixed messages.


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## 5r6ubertbe6y (Dec 5, 2017)

chillminx said:


> A well-balanced article from Icat Care on the question of having an "indoor versus outdoor" cat.
> 
> https://icatcare.org/advice/keeping-your-cat-happy/indoors-versus-outdoors
> 
> ...


I think all cats can be happy indoors if raised from kitten hood as indoor only. My kitty knows the outdoors exists, she waits for me in the window even if I've just popped to the corner shop for some milk. She's a very curious energetic 10 month old but has no desire to go out.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Not all cats. I had a kitten who was raised indoors (in a 4th floor city apartment with no access to outdoors) and from around the age of 6 months (post neutering) he howled the place down every night. It was a case of move or re-home him, as the neighbours were beginning to complain. When my cat was about 18 mths old I moved out of the city to a quiet rural area and allowed my cat out. He took to the outdoor life like a duck to water. There was never any howling indoors at night after that. He was a prolific hunter and spent most of his days in the summer in the hay barns of the nearby farms, hunting mice and rats. The farmers loved him! It was great to see my cat living the life he wanted.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

MissMiloKitty said:


> It seems that the general consensus in this country is to let cats roam. I think it will take a long time to change the consensus. I know that there has been no real public debate about this.
> I notice that Downing street has 5 "hunting cats" . Larry is "Chief Mouser". So, it hardly inspires people to keep cats indoors when the UK government advocate outdoor cats.
> I notice that the major charities advocate it also. So UK cat owners are receiving mixed messages.


Let's first address the UK Government's implied advocacy toward free roaming cats....since when did politicians ever set good examples unless it benefited themselves?

It would seem that debate of this type is very often stifled by those in favour of free roaming as soon as the issue arises or looks like there might be a rational debate about it so there really can't be a true societal consensus of opinion unless it is publicly tested. It happened with the free roaming dogs ban as well as hunting and smoking bans and mobile telephone bans in cars too so once there is sufficient public opinion against something or it benefits politicians, they will act.

However in the meantime, if cats genuinely can't be healthily kept in domestic captivity whilst confined to one's own premises/boundaries which would seem to be the foundation of the argument of those in favour of free roaming, then perhaps the answer is that cats really shouldn't be kept in captivity by anyone if it's so bad for the cat, unless of course they are licenced specialists or have suitably large scale enclosures which would preclude most people from ever owning/keeping cats, particularly those who raise their cats as indoor only.

Setting aside the inordinate number of risks and dangers to an unchaperoned roaming cat or the tenuous argument of whether or not a cat is likely to be adversely affected by not being allowed to free roam, like most cat owners I am quite happy to take the risks of contracting diseases such as Toxocariasis from my cat on my own property from my own cat but WHY should I and/or other people, particularly if they have children which are most at risk from the effects of Toxocariasis, have to take that risk, no matter how remote on their own properties when they might not even be pet owners?

I'm not speaking as a cat hater or being in any way anti-cat but the way I see it, there is NO valid argument for someone who owns a cat that they allow to free roam, to have the right for their cat to trespass onto someone else's land or property which could cause nuisance or impinge on their way of life or their own pet ownership. The argument of "you can't keep a cat confined" really doesn't hold water!

It would of course be impossible to impose a non-roaming law overnight and would take probably a decade to implement or even longer if free-roaming supporters dug in their heels but eventually it will come, just as with the bans on dogs, hunting, smoking and mobile telephone use in cars.

.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@StormyThai
I mentioned bite stats because a cat is very unlikely to walk up to a human passing by and bite while a dog is much more likely to.
The danger factor is quite different in dogs vs cats. Cats might bite humans to defend themselves if cornered, dogs bite humans to show dominance, protect territory etc. I mention this as you often equate dogs and cats being loose as the same situation.

Cat poo in gardens is akin in my mind to dogs that bark frequently, not a danger but a nuisance. Nobody is suggesting dogs stay inside all the time, so as not to annoy the neighbors.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Summercat said:


> @StormyThai
> I mentioned bite stats because a cat is very unlikely to walk up to a human passing by and bite while a dog is much more likely to.
> The danger factor is quite different in dogs vs cats. Cats might bite humans to defend themselves if cornered, dogs bite humans to show dominance, protect territory etc.


Not always true. I used to garden for a couple whose next door neighbour had a cat. The cat used to regularly come through into their garden while I was working and bite and scratch me. The neighbour refused to keep the cat in, and eventually I had to tell the couple I wouldn't work for them any more. Gardening with open wounds (especially surrounded by the cat poo that the animal scattered liberally round the garden) was too big a risk to my health.

My aunt also had a cat that would attack people on site.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Summercat said:


> The danger factor is quite different in dogs vs cats. Cats might bite humans to defend themselves if cornered, *dogs bite humans to show dominance*, protect territory etc. I mention this as you often equate dogs and cats being loose as the same situation.


Oooh, they don't.

I understand your post, but that part may get picked apart.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Summercat said:


> @StormyThai
> I mentioned bite stats because a cat is very unlikely to walk up to a human passing by and bite while a dog is much more likely to.
> The danger factor is quite different in dogs vs cats. Cats might bite humans to defend themselves if cornered, dogs bite humans to show dominance, protect territory etc. I mention this as you often equate dogs and cats being loose as the same situation.
> 
> Cat poo in gardens is akin in my mind to dogs that bark frequently, not a danger but a nuisance. Nobody is suggesting dogs stay inside all the time, so as not to annoy the neighbors.


I can only assume from your opinion of dogs that you have never had the pleasure of them in your home.
I lived with 9 Afghans and I can assure you that not one of them ever showed any intention of biting humans to show dominance and neither did the countless dogs I have come across over the years, fear possibly if their warning signs weren't heeded but dominance........never.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Summercat said:


> Cat poo in gardens is akin in my mind to dogs that bark frequently, not a danger but a nuisance.


Cat poo can be very dangerous in terms of toxoplasmosis, especially for pregnant women - it causes blindness in the foetus and can result in miscarriage. It is not comparable to a dog barking.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

Then do dogs attack people then? Fun, boredom? I am pretty sure dominance comes into play when dogs attack, not all the time but it does play a role some of the time. Which is why some breeds have attacked and killed their owners, I think dominance may have been part of the reason. Territoriality will not come into play with humans they live with. Growling, barking, at strangers is a power play not a hello and welcome.
I have never known a cat to walk up and attack people, so that is a new one and I must say it is rarer than in dogs.

@buffie
Yes, I have lived with dogs. Some breeds attack humans they are familiar with, such as the Pitt bill category dogs or other dogs for guarding or fighting, some tend to attack strangers and some breeds rarely bite.
@Rufus15
True but I think only if handled and not all cats carry it. So it is not in all gardens in cat poo.

My view is there is a much better call to have dogs confined to yards and leashes and cats. Having lived places such as the US where free roaming dogs are not uncommon I much would prefer free roaming cats which are more uncommon in the US. A cultural difference is not only barking dogs are a nuisance, but dog poo (always uncovered) and dangerous dogs roaming are an issue. Oh and dogs urinating as well as pooing on others property.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

'than cats' sorry, the scroll down function is not working on edit for me.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Summercat said:


> @buffie
> Yes, I have lived with dogs. Some breeds attack humans they are familiar with, such as the Pitt bill category dogs or other dogs for guarding or fighting, some tend to attack strangers and some breeds rarely bite.
> 
> .


I do think the "attacks" you are referring to are confined to certain situations , it would be rare IMO for this to happen with the majority of family pets.
Yes it happens but usually there is a "trigger" which has set off the attack or in a few cases a physical/mental problem with the animal .


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Summercat said:


> Then do dogs attack people then? Fun, boredom? I am pretty sure dominance comes into play when dogs attack, not all the time but it does play a role some of the time. Which is why some breeds have attacked and killed their owners, I think dominance may have been part of the reason. Territoriality will not come into play with humans they live with. Growling, barking, at strangers is a power play not a hello and welcome.
> I have never known a cat to walk up and attack people, so that is a new one and I must say it is rarer than in dogs.
> 
> @buffie
> ...


You are making very broad generalisations based on little facts. Pit bull type dogs do not routinely attack their owners. Attitudes like this and similar result in thousands of pit bull type dogs being unable to be rehomed, and are regularly put down. This viewpoint is woefully ignorant and dangerous for the majority of dogs.

"Power play" is not a dog concept. They only understand that someone is in their space or they feel threatened, and give warning signs before an attack. Seemingly unprovoked attacks are very, very often provoked, and the provocation has gone unseen or unnoticed.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Summercat said:


> Then do dogs attack people then? Fun, boredom? I am pretty sure dominance comes into play when dogs attack, not all the time but it does play a role some of the time. Which is why some breeds have attacked and killed their owners, I think dominance may have been part of the reason. Territoriality will not come into play with humans they live with. Growling, barking, at strangers is a power play not a hello and welcome.
> I have never known a cat to walk up and attack people, so that is a new one and I must say it is rarer than in dogs.


The dominance theory has been debunked and is currently considered inaccurate and out-of-date.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Rufus15 
No I did not say they routinely attack their owners, but it has happened often enough that I would never own one. Bites and attacks that do not kill happen more often than killings but killings do occur. Generally small children or non family members that visit but sometimes adult owners.
I think dominance is a concept in dogs, and they often display dominance or submission to other dogs.
But we will just have to agree to disagree that Pitt bulls are good pets.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Ceiling Kitty 
Then I stand corrected it is outdated information.
I still would much rather pass a wandering cat on the street vs a dog.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Cat attacks can be serious in some cases. They are less likely to be reported though.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Summercat said:


> I mentioned bite stats because a cat is very unlikely to walk up to a human passing by and bite while a dog is much more likely to.


That is just not true...Neither cat or dog is likely to bite a human for just passing by...I don't need stats to know that 

As for the rest...may I suggest you spend a bit of time around balanced well mannered dogs before you pin labels on them....Both dogs and cats can cause serious harm to humans IF they attack, both dogs and cats can cause a serious nuisance (which can effect mental health) IF their owners are not responsible, both dogs and cats can get seriously hurt on our roads, by intolerant people or just by getting themselves into mischief...

This shouldn't be about one species not causing as much as another so that's ok...neither species should be free roaming in todays world...15-20 years ago fine...but not now!
I find it interesting that every single argument put forward to allow cats to roam is exactly the same arguments put forward when it was made an offence to allow dogs to roam...dog owners managed to cope (for the most part anyway) so I'm pretty sure cats will adapt just as well


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Summercat said:


> @Rufus15
> No I did not say they routinely attack their owners, but it has happened often enough that I would never own one. Bites and attacks that do not kill happen more often than killings but killings do occur. Generally small children or non family members that visit but sometimes adult owners.
> I think dominance is a concept in dogs, and they often display dominance or submission to other dogs.
> But we will just have to agree to disagree that Pitt bulls are good pets.


Dogs do not attack routinely. They are widely reported but they are not routine. Pit bulls were known as the Nanny Dog, due to their unfailing loyalty, and gentle, sweet nature. What has ruined the breed, and indeed all dogs, are stupid owners who don't heed warning signals. That is not a failing of the dog or of a breed.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Ceiling Kitty 
Having lived where there are free roaming dogs and cats, I think cats in most cases tend to avoid humans they do not know or are friendly. Of course there are exceptions. Dogs are more likely to challenge humans that pass by. Of course some dogs will be friendly as well. I have seen the opposite too often. 
To sign off, I will just say, I think having leash/lead laws are a good thing. As someone having been on the negative side of free roaming dogs, by being approached by aggressive dogs on numerous occasions and once having a pet dog I was walking on a lead attacked by a dog, presumably a pet as well that ran out of the woods at the end of a road at us.
I am sure cats can on exceptions by aggressive to passers by but I have never had it occur despite the numerous cats I have passed, dogs tend to be a great deal more assertive on average.
If a cat did decide to attack, am sure yes, it could do damage.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> Dogs do not attack routinely. They are widely reported but they are not routine. *Pit bulls were known as the Nanny Dog*, due to their unfailing loyalty, and gentle, sweet nature. What has ruined the breed, and indeed all dogs, are stupid owners who don't heed warning signals. That is not a failing of the dog or of a breed.


I think it is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier that is /was known as the "Nanny Dog" but you are correct it is the "mind set" of certain humans who have ruined them and many other breeds.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@StormyThai 
It happened to my OH last summer, he was passing through a byway between buildings, some men who were fixing a car, not in a residential area, had a dog with them and my OH, who was walking by to get to the other side was bitten. Sorry, he did not threaten or otherwise engage the dog.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Summercat said:


> @StormyThai
> It happened to my OH last summer, he was passing through a byway between buildings, some men who were fixing a car, not in a residential area, had a dog with them and my OH, who was walking by to get to the other side was bitten. Sorry, he did not threaten or otherwise engage the dog.


You can not hold up one attack to say all dogs are likely to attack a human passing by!
I can recount many times when I have encountered stray dogs (I grew up in the latch key dog time) without a single incident...in fact I have only been put in hospital once for a bite and that was from a cat sooo.......


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

buffie said:


> I think it is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier that is /was known as the "Nanny Dog" but you are correct it is the "mind set" of certain humans who have ruined them and many other breeds.


You're correct, staffies are included in the pit bull family


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> You're correct, staffies are included in the pit bull family


Not really, both are distinct breeds of their own...although pits aren't recognised in the UK so they get mixed up in these parts lol
Both breeds are noted to be good family pets and great with kids (it is the staffy that was known as the nanny dog)...They are both part of the Bull breed family though so I'll give you that


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> You're correct, staffies are included in the pit bull family


Every days a school day I didn't realise they were/could be part of the make up of what is described as a "pit bull"


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@StormyThai 
That was one example, I had this view long before, that incident occurred.
I have been threatened by aggressive dogs before. I personally have not been bitten but have had to change my way home, cross road, avoid biking and walking in certain areas, due to growling, barking dogs that have appreoached me in a threatening manner while I was walking by. I had no interest approaching them but sadly, pavements and roadways often required my path to go by them. If the same has happened to you with cats enough for you to change your routine, stop playing in certain areas as a child, cross busy dangerous road to avoid what are acting like dangerous cats then I feel bad for you as well and I am sure you will appreciate why I prefer dogs on a lead or off the streets.


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## 5r6ubertbe6y (Dec 5, 2017)

I


jasperthecat said:


> Let's first address the UK Government's implied advocacy toward free roaming cats....since when did politicians ever set good examples unless it benefited themselves?
> 
> It would seem that debate of this type is very often stifled by those in favour of free roaming as soon as the issue arises or looks like there might be a rational debate about it so there really can't be a true societal consensus of opinion unless it is publicly tested. It happened with the free roaming dogs ban as well as hunting and smoking bans and mobile telephone bans in cars too so once there is sufficient public opinion against something or it benefits politicians, they will act.
> 
> ...


I think we are moving in the right direction though because younger generations are keeping their cats in more. I myself have encountered quite a few indoor cats in the last few years, I think most cats in my area are indoor cats.
I couldn't imagine letting a cat out nowadays.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Summercat said:


> @StormyThai
> That was one example, I had this view long before, that incident occurred.
> I have been threatened by aggressive dogs before. I personally have not been bitten but have had to change my way home, cross road, avoid biking and walking in certain areas, due to growling, barking dogs that have appreoached me in a threatening manner while I was walking by. I had no interest approaching them but sadly, pavements and roadways often required my path to go by them. If the same has happened to you with cats enough for you to change your routine, stop playing in certain areas as a child, cross busy dangerous road to avoid what are acting like dangerous cats then I feel bad for you as well and I am sure you will appreciate why I prefer dogs on a lead or off the streets.


I'm not saying that your experiences are wrong, and your reasons are some of the many that resulted in dog control laws being implemented...that does not negate mt reasons for wanting to see free roaming cats stopped


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

The problem is as I said earlier, whenever there is a debate over the issue of cats being allowed to roam, it is invariably deflected toward other side issues.
Logically cats are far less threat than dogs are to the public if roaming unchaperoned so the threat from roaming cats really isn't an issue with regard to aggression or so minimal as not to warrant debate.

However, while on the subject of dogs, probably 99% of dogs that show unprovoked aggression, particularly toward humans, is due to the animal's poor training and upbringing or acting in a way that intimidates or threatens them. I've owned dogs in the past and they were never aggressive to anyone or anything.

My daughter also had two huge Bull Mastiffs at different times and they were the most gentle and non-aggressive creatures imaginable. The biggest threat they posed was to cover you in saliva or walk on your foot or roll onto if you were sat next to them. Had I not got Jasper or any other cat then a Bull Mastiff would have been the animal I'd have chosen as a pet as they have beautiful temperaments if raised and trained correctly.

Likewise with cats. We have a 13 month old cat and he's never once tried to bite or scratch us no matter what we do with him. That isn't an accident or good fortune....that is primarily due to raising him NOT to be aggressive toward humans which can be done.

It's the same as having well mannered, well behaved children, particularly in public....that is no accident...that is primarily good parenting and the same goes for animal rearing.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Not really, both are distinct breeds of their own...although pits aren't recognised in the UK so they get mixed up in these parts lol
> Both breeds are noted to be good family pets and great with kids (it is the staffy that was known as the nanny dog)...*They are both part of the Bull breed family* though so I'll give you that


That's what I meant, woops


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@StormyThai 
I am sure people have their reasons but those are more personal preference or nuisance reasons, the reasons for dogs are more related to public harm in my view. 
But I see neither of us will change the others mind, so agree to disagree.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

jasperthecat said:


> <Snip>
> 
> It's the same as having well mannered, well behaved children, particularly in public


In public I think is the key bit there - mine are angels out and about, and positively feral at home


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> In public I think is the key bit there - mine are angels out and about, and positively feral at home


You expect them to be a bit like that in their home surely?

Mine were a delight to take out in public, I doubt you'd find two more well behaved kids but they could be very trying to say the least in our home. Nothing bad but they could be...well er... trying as kids can be!

Children are little different to animals when it comes to raising them...invest the time early on and reap the rewards later.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

MissMiloKitty said:


> I
> 
> I think we are moving in the right direction though because younger generations are keeping their cats in more. I myself have encountered quite a few indoor cats in the last few years, I think most cats in my area are indoor cats.
> I couldn't imagine letting a cat out nowadays.


Good point about the shift in attitude by younger people with regard to pet ownership!

When one considers the inordinate number of dangers facing a free roaming unchaperoned cat, why would anyone attempt to justify deliberately exposing them to such risks by allowing them to free roam?
I find myself constantly risk assessing my home with regard to Jasper's safety....it would be virtually impossible if he was allowed to free roam without restriction and not a risk I'd be willing to take on his behalf.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Summercat said:


> Yes, I have lived with dogs. Some breeds attack humans they are familiar with, such as the Pitt bill category dogs or other dogs for guarding or fighting, some tend to attack strangers and some breeds rarely bite.


It is such woeful ignorance as this that has led to Breed Specific Legislation.

What is the 'Pitbull Category'? Are you talking about all Bull Breeds?

Why would they attack humans?

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Summercat said:


> dogs bite humans to show dominance,


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> You're correct, staffies are included in the pit bull family


Staffordshire Bull Terriers and Pitbull Terriers are completely separate Breeds.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Rafa said:


> Staffordshire Bull Terriers and Pitbull Terriers are completely separate Breeds.


See acknowledgement made above.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Have a walk around Malaysian Borneo, you'll be surrounded by stray cats and dogs, have a look at which animals the locals avoid, and I can assure you, it isn't the dogs. 

Our group of around thirty had a lot of cat scratches and bites by the end of the trip, some were even sprayed, but not the slightest problem from the dogs. Well, apart from one of them stealing my biscuit!


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Summercat said:


> Cats might bite humans to defend themselves if cornered, dogs bite humans to show dominance, protect territory etc. I mention this as you often equate dogs and cats being loose as the same situation.


I have been bitten and clawed in attacks totally unprovoked by several different cats at different times over the years
including my own. They have launched themselves at me from on walls , behind fences and one out of a bush
for just walking past them. I only ever been bitten by a dog once totally unprovoked. Both animals are capable of attacking unprovoked
and causing serious injury. I will admit that I should imagine the larger dog breeds would do more serious injury than a cat but
the point is that both animals are capable of attacking unprovoked and can cause serious injury. Both animals can also leave the 
risk of illness and disease in their poop too.
And neither of them should be allowed to roam free.I have been talking to a friend of mine about this subject recently
and she told me a friend of hers 5 year old daughter lost an eye to an unprovoked cat attack when the cat jumped 
on to her daughter from off a wall hissing and scratching her,all they were doing was walking past.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

At least in my experience, Pitt Bull tends to be a broad term that covers, staffordshire terriers as well as others.
I find it frankly bizarre that two posters who own dogs find it impossible to believe a dog would attack a human.

@Rosie64 
Then I am lucky, I have never been jumped or attacked by a cat. In my experience stray cats and fearful cats tend to leave if humans approach, provided they do have an escape route. Dogs are more likely to stand their ground.
I do have a friend who was bitten by a stray kitten she tried to pick up. For that she had to get rabies shots. I am sure though she did not say, that the kitten probably hissed and flattened it's ears before it bit.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Summercat said:


> At least in my experience, Pitt Bull tends to be a broad term that covers, staffordshire terriers as well as others.


Well then your experience is wrong:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2018)

I have not seen anything like that before and agree that it is an eyesore, and I agree that cats should be able to go as they please, but if they are bothering you speak to your neighbor... I don't know if this will help? You may want to mention that it may not be your cat? Just a suggestion, thanks xxx


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Summercat said:


> *At least in my experience, Pitt Bull tends to be a broad term that covers, staffordshire terriers as well as others.*
> I find it frankly bizarre that two posters who own dogs find it impossible to believe a dog would attack a human.
> .


That is so very wrong,many innocent dogs have been destroyed simply for resembling a "banned breed"

As for not believing that a dog would attack a human I think you have missed the point being made by "dog owners" .
Dogs do not attack humans unless they themselves have been badly treated/trained to attack or have a physical or mental condition,they are domesticated animals that thrive on human companionship not wild animals.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@mrs phas 
It is not scientific, if is what is generally used for fighting dogs in the US and they tend to have a particular look. It is common usage and it may not be scientific and it does cover mixes. Ask most people what a Pitt Bull is and they can generally tell one from say a Great Dane or Cocker Spaniel.
I have met many a Pitt Bull fan and yes, they will tell you the dogs are all soppy sweet, that is until they bite a child, kill the neighbors cats etc. And loose yes, there have been many instances of the dogs off lead or wandering about, killing other dogs, cats etc.
Liking a breed does not make them what they are not, dogs breed for fighting, not herding sheep or pointing out birds.
I will bow out now, as I see the Pitt Bull fan club will take anything a quick search of online news will tell you does happen and not uncommonly and say oh it never happens or it is the owners not the dog....or you must be mistaken....I have encountered the Pitt Bull brigade.
Ciao


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@buffie 
I have seen packs of feral strays, maybe you have not but desiring human companionship is not what they were after. Maybe they had reason to fear humans but if you get too close walking down the pavement, they were not wagging their tails and doing a happy dance.
Anyway, I am exiting the conversation. I said this before but the shocked oh no a doggy would never bite a human or come up and attack just got a bit off the wall.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Summercat said:


> @buffie
> I* have seen packs of feral strays*, maybe you have not but desiring human companionship is not what they were after. Maybe they had reason to fear humans but if you get too close walking down the pavement, they were not wagging their tails and doing a happy dance.
> Anyway, I am exiting the conversation. I said this before but the shocked oh no a doggy would never bite a human or come up and attack just got a bit off the wall.


I know you are exiting the convo but I would just like to point out that there is likely to be a huge difference with "feral stays" that have most likely suffered abuse at the hands of a human/ will most likely never have known kindness and will live in fear/distrust of all humans.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Summercat said:


> @mrs phas
> It is not scientific, if is what is generally used for fighting dogs in the US and they tend to have a particular look. It is common usage and it may not be scientific and it does cover mixes. Ask most people what a Pitt Bull is and they can generally tell one from say a Great Dane or Cocker Spaniel.


im sure they can
but
I, and many 1000s, if not 100's of 1000,s can tell the difference between a pit and a staff the 'umbrella' term pitbull DOESNOT encompass staffies, end of


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Summercat said:


> @mrs phas
> It is not scientific, if is what is generally used for fighting dogs in the US and they tend to have a particular look. It is common usage and it may not be scientific and it does cover mixes. Ask most people what a Pitt Bull is and they can generally tell one from say a Great Dane or Cocker Spaniel.
> I have met many a Pitt Bull fan and yes, they will tell you the dogs are all soppy sweet, that is until they bite a child, kill the neighbors cats etc. And loose yes, there have been many instances of the dogs off lead or wandering about, killing other dogs, cats etc.
> Liking a breed does not make them what they are not, dogs breed for fighting, not herding sheep or pointing out birds.
> ...


Being a certain breed or type doesn't make one dog more dangerous than another - BSL is crap that basically suggests, some "types" are dangerous, others are not. It's just not true. Judge on individual behaviour cases - not appearance.

Your average owner doesn't know jack about dog behaviour and body language - heck, I've met owners oblivious that their dog can't even breathe normally. So these clueless owners, don't see the warning signs, don't see the progression or worse punish the dog for warning - then when a bite occurs, they didn't see it coming because they didn't know any better. Sheer ignorance at best.

There are bad dogs but not bad breeds - it's an individual thing, both nature and nurture. Innocent dogs are killed daily for their appearance alone - they haven't done anything wrong but be born and look a certain way - absurd.

I don't like roaming cats - various reasons. Although having a cat attack my dog, isn't great. Having to physically hold my dog back and move the cat that was trying to attack my dog again and get bitten and scratched myself by the cat - not fun. I don't blame the cat, I blame the owner that allowed their cat to have kittens outside.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Summercat said:


> @mrs phas
> It is not scientific, if is what is generally used for fighting dogs in the US and they tend to have a particular look. It is common usage and it may not be scientific and it does cover mixes. Ask most people what a Pitt Bull is and they can generally tell one from say a Great Dane or Cocker Spaniel.
> I have met many a Pitt Bull fan and yes, they will tell you the dogs are all soppy sweet, that is until they bite a child, kill the neighbors cats etc. And loose yes, there have been many instances of the dogs off lead or wandering about, killing other dogs, cats etc.
> Liking a breed does not make them what they are not, dogs breed for fighting, not herding sheep or pointing out birds.
> ...


Your ignorance is appalling.

I take it you don't live in this Country? You can't if you're as knowledgeable about Pitbulls as you appear to think you are.

A word of advice for you. As a Bull Breed Basher, you will not be too warmly received in Dog Chat when you begin to air your ignorant and misguided views and opinions.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Summercat said:


> I have seen packs of feral strays,


Where the hell do you live?

I've never seen a pack of feral strays.

Have you reported these ravening packs of savage dogs, out to kill and desperate for blood to your Dog Warden?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Summercat said:


> in my experience, Pitt Bull tends to be a broad term that covers, staffordshire terriers as well as others.


Well, one can only deduce from that that you have no experience.

You're making it up as you go along.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Rafa said:


> Where the hell do you live?
> 
> I've never seen a pack of feral strays.
> 
> Have you reported these ravening packs of savage dogs, out to kill and desperate for blood to your Dog Warden?


Not in the UK !


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Rafa said:


> Where the hell do you live?
> 
> I've never seen a pack of feral strays.
> 
> Have you reported these ravening packs of savage dogs, out to kill and desperate for blood to your Dog Warden?


Not certain where the poster lives but I "think" it is in Europe somewhere.


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

OK....it's maybe time to just let things relax a little...when it gets to this stage it usually ends in threads being closed which puts an end to reasoned and sensible debate!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Good God is this thread still rambling on! And I see it's now reached the "dog" vs "cat" and which is more likely to attack you stage. What has any of this got to do with the OPs original post?

Time for the mods to lock it down IMO
@lymorelynn @SusieRainbow @Matrod


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## jasperthecat (Aug 5, 2017)

CatCommunity said:


> I have not seen anything like that before and agree that it is an eyesore, and I agree that cats should be able to go as they please, but if they are bothering you speak to your neighbor... I don't know if this will help? You may want to mention that it may not be your cat? Just a suggestion, thanks xxx


So what would you suggest one does when neighbours refuse to do anything about their roaming cat causing issues for others?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

The debates over indoor cats vs free- roaming cats are much older than the forum. They very rarely end well !


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

jasperthecat said:


> So what would you suggest one does when neighbours refuse to do anything about their roaming cat causing issues for others?


I know its not what you want to hear, but, as the law stands, I dont think you can do anything, other than have a chat and see if you can come to an arrangement where, perhaps, for example, yours are out from 10-3 and hers are out from 3 til 8pm, adjusting it for winter months so that all cats are in before nightfall


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