# Rupert's journey with atopic like dermatitis - things are improving!



## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Rupert is a 4.5 year old male golden retriever. He was bred from health tested parents, breeder owned Mum, grandma and half sister, none of whom had any health problems. At 10 months old he started developing ear irritation which required steroid injections and ear drops to fix. This became recurrent (at least every three months if not more) and by 18 months of age he was also developing rashes in other areas on his body.

His skin seems very sensitive; if he itches he will make himself sore and this spreads very quickly if we do not take control of it ASAP. I would say our other dog could itch 10 times as much as Rupert without causing a rash on himself.

We looked at diet, washing powders, shower gels etc that we used, house mites, dust mites, fleas, our cats etc and nothing we could do was improving Rupert's condition. We changed his food, kept him away from grass and trees during certain months but nothing helped. When he was 2.5 years old I switched him onto a raw diet so that I know as much about what he is eating as possible. He was having vague digestive issues by the end of 2010 into 2011 and these are distinctly better since being on raw which, sadly doesn't seem to have helped his skin condition very much.

After receiving a lepto vaccination at the end of March 2011, Rupert's ears flared up very badly and didn't really settle down for several weeks.

He was nearly put to sleep at less than three years of age. He developed a severe rash across his groin in June 2011 which spread and grew in severity in just hours despite him wearing a buster collar. This is also believed to be related to the lepto vaccination he received. After going to the vets and receiving pain killers, anti inflammatories, antibiotics etc with more to take home, he was growling and throwing himself at the wall in pain :nonod: It took a good two hours for him to calm down and I was beside myself 

After this we sought a referral to a veterinary hospital. He went to Queens in Cambridge where they did skin scrapes, analysed pustules, took blood, and did intradermal skin testing. This is where they inject allergens into the skin to see if they can pinpoint an allergy. Sadly this failed, and they were unable to identify a cause. My vets had also been unable to identify anything with the blood allergy test a few months before. He was diagnosed with 'atopic like dermatitis'. His body reacts as though he is having an allergic reaction to something he is coming into contact with, but we can't establish what this might be. At one point he was being bathed in Hibiscrub, then Episoothe shampoo three days later, then Hibiscrub three days later, then Episoothe another three days later etc to try and keep his skin as clean as possible in case it was bacteria living on him causing the problem.

The *plan* for Rupert was to keep him up to date with Stronghold as he also seems particularly sensitive to mites and fleas (despite not actually having an infestation of them), bath him weekly in Episoothe and keep him on a maintenance dose of steroids alongside piriton tablets. He was also given an Omega supplement that he was to have as much of as his body could handle. He also seems sensitive to vaccination, and so it is likely he will never be vaccinated again. He will get titre tested and only if his titres are very, very low will we consider re vaccination.

Back with my local vets we tried to get him off the steroids or onto as low a dose as possible. Even on 0.5mg pred every other day he was still having flare ups, and the steroids affected him hugely. He is a greedy dog anyway, but he would near on fight with our other dog for his food through the stair gate. Walks were a nightmare and he was peeing for England even on the lowest dose.

In September 2012 he came down with pancreatitis and had to be admitted to the emergency vets. Whilst evidence is dubious in terms of steroids causing this, it is believed they can be a contributory factor into putting a dog at risk of pancreatitis. Now that he has had it once, he will always be more prone to it than a dog who has not had it. He came down with severe colitis after being home for two or three days and had to go on even more medication. He was on anti sickness tabs, pro biotics, his piriton tablets, his omega capsules and some antibiotics also but was banned from his steroids for a week or so.

The next step looked to be a hollistic vet which (luckily) my insurance will pay out for providing our own vet refers us there. With uni etc and the stress going to Cambridge took I decided this would wait until Spring 2013. Plus, the dog's system usually needs to be free of steroids which takes 6-8 weeks and it was going to be hell for Rupert and a nightmare for me.

In October 2012 a DAF supplier (Naturally Healthy Dogs) told me about a supplement called Moxxor. I can't lie, Rupert has been on that many supplements that I wasn't really sold on it. Costs a good £50 + a pot (he would need a pot a month) and that's all it was, a supplement. Didn't claim to necessarily fix anything...Its a cold pressed oil, which is supposedly of a lot more use to the body than oil pressed in other ways which is just excreted and much more difficult to make use of.

Anyway, my vets said they could get it in, which meant if they prescribed it my insurance were happy to pay for it. Decided we would give it a go, if anything we could try and get him on a lower dose of steroids in prep for a hollistic referral. He has two capsules a day and was weaned onto them and off his steroids over about four weeks.

In total up to now, he is on his 5th pot, so has had 120 days + of Moxxor capsules. In this time we have not been to the vet once, which is a record for Rupert. He has never gone six months straight without multiple vet visits.

About 40 days in he had a slight groin flare up which I was unable to shift with topical non steroidal treatments alone. I applied two layers of Fuciderm steroid gel and gave him 0.5mg pred one day, day off, and 0.5mg pred the next day. In the next 30 days he had two ear flare ups which were treated with Thornit only, no steroids. In the last 50 days + we have had no problems at all, he has had no treatment for his skin condition, just his Moxxor capsules in the morning. He does still get itchy to a degree, but if I bath him in Episoothe this is greatly reduced. He probably averages a bath every four weeks or so, but its purely to give him some relief from itching more than anything. He is not itching enough to cause sores across his body.

I'm still waiting for a severe flare up and to be caught by surprise! His ears and belly get checked three times daily, his back, feet and tail once daily. Summer will be the real test, but even if this has only been preparation for the hollistic referral, Moxxor seems to be amazing stuff. I don't know if we will pursue a hollistic referral; I think we will see how long he does without a flare up. He dislikes the vet, as you can imagine he has had a lot of negative experiences. He is better at the moment, but increasing his exposure to that kind of environment could send him back a long way which, if possible to avoid, we will.

When he goes for walks at the moment he tends to wear a coat, mostly because if he gets damp he gets more itchy. It means I can try and bath him less often which is of course better for his fur, gives it chance to try and produce oil to keep it in OK condition.

With age, his condition has worsened. We've tried a lot of foods (Pedigree, Alpha, Fish4Dogs, Orijen, Arden Grange, Nature diet, Nature's Harvest, Nature's Menu, Royal Canin, Hills Science Plan, James Wellbeloved, now raw and I daresay there are other commercial ones I've missed). We've tried using the Dermacton products, Moo Goo, various other creams and ointments that are non steroidal and nothing has allowed him to be free of skin irritation for this long.

Not 100% why I've written this, its kind of nice to have it written down and if we do pursue a hollistic referral it helps me recall all the important points when I have to give them a bliddy medical history  (my vets are happy for me to self medicate him with steroids etc so its not all noted down on his vet records).

If there is anyone out there with a dog who has a skin condition I think Moxxor are definitely worth a go. They do a 90 day trial and my insurance company pay out for them, as should most companies I would think. There is another *wonder* product called Atopica which does contain steroids but is supposed to be very good. That actually costs more than Moxxor and if you Google it does appear to significantly shorten a dog's lifespan, sadly. I never wanted to go down that route but felt like it was our only option at times. If all else fails and that has to happen, Moxxor has at least given us a few months of having a happy and content Rupert.

It does seem to take a few weeks to get into the system, I would think you would need to try 90 days worth of thereabouts to be certain whether it is helping or not. For all I know this could be a complete fluke. My vets had never heard of Moxxor, never stocked it and order it in specifically for Rupert and only Rupert. The pharmacist had never even heard of a lot of the ingredients in it :laugh: They checked everything out and thought it was worth a go though, worked out a dosage for Rupert and here we are.

I want to say thank you to Sled Dog Hotel, LouiseH, Rona, and Babycham2002 specifically. They have all been amazing at offering advice and support with yet another flare up where yet again I was sat questioning Rupert's quality of life.

Hopefully we will see no more of this:




























And more of this, clean ears and healthy skin!



















And an all round, happier woof


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

It's always nice to read the improvements of dogs. At the moment I am going through a similar thing with Louie - trying to find out what is causing his ear irritations and I think I have found that it is indeed grains. So hopefully we'll see happy healthy ears here too 

Good luck with Rupert and hopefully he'll live well into his teens and surprise you


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## x clo x (Feb 24, 2012)

thank you for this!!!

it sounds exactly what my dog has! tests and skin scrapes have not worked out where her flare ups are coming from. this is certainly a great help. her insurance covers £500 per condition per year for holistic treatments so definitely something im going to talk to the vet about


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

What a nightmare journey for you both. I am so happy you've seen some improvement with the Moxxor and hope it continues.

I've subscribed to this thread so that I can refer back to it if my son and d-i-l's rescue Bichon doesn't improve.

Thank you so much for sharing, I'm sure it will help many members who are getting nowhere with conventional treatment.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

He looks so much better long may it continue. So glad that you finally seem to have found something, and more imporrtantly something that isnt harmful long term like steroids and Atopica can be. xx


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

So very pleased he is improving.
The lady I get my raw food from raves about Moxxor and sells it.

Here is the info on it from her website , incase anyone else is interested :
NHDNaturallyHealthyDogs - Moxxor Omega 3+ !


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Yup gotta admit
Got kinda bored and just looked at the pictures 
I love Roo Roo


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## totallypets (Dec 30, 2011)

Those before and after photos made me cry. I'm so pleased for Rupert that something so simple has made such a huge difference. Long may it continue.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks guys 

I can't believe how well he is doing; I used to want to know the cause and not just treat the symptoms but this became impossible. Waiting for something terrible to happen like a really bad flare up just because something so minor can hardly make all this difference, surely


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> I can't believe how well he is doing; I used to want to know the cause and not just treat the symptoms but this became impossible. Waiting for something terrible to happen like a really bad flare up just because something so minor can hardly make all this difference, surely


Sometimes you can rack your brains and search for ages and do all the tests possible and nothing, its just a matter sometimes of hitting lucky and finding something, you may never know the cause, but if you have found something that helps and relieves use of steroids and things that can have adverse effects on their own especially long term dont knock it, sometimes you just hit lucky and never know the reason.

When Daisy was younger she used to have minor seizues about every 12 weeks. she had all the physical testing and blood tests to rule out medical/physical causes and nothing showed up. The vet said if they got worse and/or more frequent it would be a neurological refferal.

Long story short she continued to have them no worse no more frequent. I took Laska for a regular check up and vet said a little stiffness was beginning in her legs. My Dad always used RA joint formula on his dobies and they were really fit and mobile for their ages, so I got some for Laska. After a couple of weeks I put some in Daisys dinner too. The fits stopped no more for quite a few years. We went on Holiday and I forgot to take it and couldnt get any and she was off it for 2 weeks. The Tuesday after we got home on the Saturday she had another seizure just the one. its been nearly 7 years again ans she never has had another.

So sometimes we just hit lucky and things work no rhyme or reason. Just seemed very odd hers stopped and the one and only time she was off it for two weeks she had one, so little more then a co-incidence perhaps.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

So Rupert was titre tested last week and had a general blood test. General came back fine, titre test less so. 

Immunity needs to be 40 + for the dog to be considered able to fight off infection. Rupert's were as follows:

Parvo - 640
Hepatitis - 14
Distemper 10

So his Parvo immunity is fantastic, but the other two incredibly poor. The plan is to give him a DHPPi on Saturday so I can be with him all weekend, Monday and Tuesday. We will titre test after two weeks so that the results should be back in three weeks, enabling us to give him the second vaccination within the 2-4 week recommended period just like for puppies. He will be done with Nobivac.

Hoping and praying for a minor or non reaction this time


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

How much is the titre tests? I hope Rupert copes fine with his vaccines.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

What a journey! You must have the patience of a saint! Your boy is clearly adored and incredibly well looked after. Thank god you ended up with him and not somebody with less persistence! 

Long may the good skin last! Hope the vaccines don't cause any reaction.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Rupert was vaccinated with DHPPi on 23rd March and is booked in for a second next weekend, so two weeks after the first. Have decided to abandon the titre test because it didn't give me a clear answer the first time and I don't think it will this time. Sled Dog Hotel urged me to contact a vet in the states and she does not believe a titre test would show valid results within the time frame needed for the second vaccination to fit in the allotted time frame. Therefore it makes it a but unhelpful and time consuming.

In ordinary circumstances with an ordinary dog like Milo, I would just give him one lot of DHPPi and be satisfied, or do that, then titre a few months down the line. But because of his reliance on steroids we are unsure how this has affected Rupert and I feel that the double booster/puppy course is the best way to go. Providing we do not rely on steroids heavily again then I will titre test Rupert in 2 years, then three (when the vaccination is technically valid til) and re evaluate the situation then. It was the lepto vaccination he had a distinct reaction to and I have no intention to ever give him that again, not that I can titre test for it anyway.

My vet said not to be that worried re not walking him and keeping him away from other dogs. Fri-Mon over this Easter weekend he is simply not going out. Streets are crawling with dogs on their annual walk and my vets did say they would advise against any meet and greets with other dogs unless we specifically know who they are and that they're vaccinated. Distemper is rare as is Hepatitis but its only for a short time.

*DKDream* my vets charged £55 to test the antibodies of Parvo, Distemper and Hepatitis. This was the total charge for taking the blood and sending it to IDEXX. Goldenretrieverman contacted various vets and I think a fair few gave him prices over £100 for it. This is genuinely all my vets charged for it though.



cinammontoast said:


> What a journey! You must have the patience of a saint! Your boy is clearly adored and incredibly well looked after. Thank god you ended up with him and not somebody with less persistence!
> 
> Long may the good skin last! Hope the vaccines don't cause any reaction.


Aww, thanks  There's loads I forget about too which is why it helps to write it all down! I make a lot of excuses for Rupert and I am very cautious about letting him off lead for fear of losing him and someone not realising or understanding the severity of his skin condition...

Last week I asked my OH to give him his Moxxor and he forgot  I was all nervous about why Rupert was itching and unsettled and then he admitted he had forgotten to give it to him; which shows a little more I guess that the Moxxor really helps him.

He's not needed steroids for four entire months now which is most definitely a record. He's not needed veterinary treatment as such (titre test was a choice not a requirement) since October 2012 which is another record too!


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I was actually going to message you today to find out how he's doing on the Moxxor. We had Harvey back at the vets again yesterday as he's had a bit of a nasty flair up so we're going to give it a go.

I missed this thread when you first posted it and the pictures really do speak for themselves!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

LouiseH said:


> I was actually going to message you today to find out how he's doing on the Moxxor. We had Harvey back at the vets again yesterday as he's had a bit of a nasty flair up so we're going to give it a go.
> 
> I missed this thread when you first posted it and the pictures really do speak for themselves!


Hopefully you might have some luck with it too! I do think it takes a while for it to get into their system though, probably a good 30 days + before you'd see anything. As I said Rupert did have a flair up after about that time and had a teeny amount of steroids, but since then nothing at all.

Would be amazing if Moxxor turned out to be a wonder product, so annoying to find something that works for one and not another; I don't personally know anyone who uses it like I do for a problem as opposed to just a supplement. Hope Harvey is comfortable, poor chap


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Golden Bear has started to develop a rash. He was meant to go to the vets for his 2nd vaccination but because of this I cancelled it. No idea when he will go back for the second, we have another two weeks before the window is up.

Bathed him yesterday as he was getting that dirty look on his groin which can hint that this is going to happen. Last night his ears were hot and red and this is a big sign that something is up. It looks quite minor right now, I'm just hoping I can shift it without steroids, last time I couldn't...

He doesn't seem very bothered by it but he is a bit grumpy and miserable. Going to give it until midday ish tomorrow to significantly improve else the steroid creams will come out, and then if no improvement within another 24 hours I'll put him on oral steroids. If it significantly worsens at any point I will immediately give him steroids but it seems to have crept on quite slowly.

The *dirty* look before a rash:









Few spots which have developed on the other side:


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## caninedivine (Mar 29, 2013)

great post and a very interesting read.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Rash looked sooooo much better last night, but this morning a bit worse again. Decided to clip the fur off so I can slap cream on more easily. This in itself makes him a bit sensitive etc but I did discover three new spots whilst at it so have made sure to expose them well enough to slap lots of cream on. He is also in the cone of shame now.

Seeing as it looked so much better last night I'm going to put cream on every 2 hours or so and 4pm will be decider time as to whether or not the steroids come out. Last time this happened I managed to just give him 2.5mg one day, nothing, then 2.5mg and that sorted it out completely. Hopefully if I have to get them out a small amount like that will do.....

Pretending he's not bothered about the cone of shame:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Really hope the cream will keep it at bay and calm it down again.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks SDH. Sadly its spreading and I've just given him 2.5mg Prednicare  He had been completely steroid free since November so its a bit gutting as that's the longest he's ever gone since he was 10 months old.

Since about 11.30am he has been reluctant to walk or run anywhere. Normally if I go to get a cup of tea he gets up and comes with me and has a fuss or play whilst the kettle boils. Instead every time I come back he is sat down where he was. He will go from a lying to a sitting position fine but doesn't voluntarily go anywhere. If I call his name he runs really quickly and then sits down at my feet. Its obviously getting much more sore. He wanted to go out and went and plonked his belly on the grass because its cold I guess. So enough is enough whilst steroids are a last resort I'm not having him this uncomfortable.

Just hoping a tiny dose will do the trick. Tomorrow I'll see what it looks like, if its OK I'll do nothing, then give another 2.5mg on Tuesday. If its sore I'll speak to the vet before I give him anything else.

This is a prime example of why he goes without walks sometimes though, he just wants to sit down when his groin is sore, poor lad.

I don't know what my vet will say, whilst its two weeks to the day I still think this is linked to vaccination. I didn't feel like I had an option in terms of not vaccinating after his poor titre results, not considering the amount of steroids he's had because we really don't know what that might have done to things like memory cells which are immeasurable anyway.

Got just under a two week window to give him the next vaccination or not. If he does have the other one (providing this clears up and dependent on what my vet says), then I think its safe to say this will probably be the last ones he ever has.

I'm quite looking forward to talking to them really. The lady vet is great but the others less so about vaccine reactions. As far as I'm concerned Rupert has been steroid free for four months, longer than ever before since he was a young dog at 10 months old. Vaccinate him and, hey presto, two weeks to the day boom here is a groin rash that needs steroid treatment to go away. Whilst its not an instantaneous reaction I strongly feel its linked.

It was after the Lepto that he had the horrendous groin rash, he hasn't been vaccinated with that and never will. He has had a DHPPi but I am really very confident this rash is linked to it.

ETA: Here are some photos of it now:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Must admit it seems posibly more then a co-incidence that for a long time he was free of it and then vaccinate and he has a flair up. If I remember rightly we did investigate at one point immune/auto immune mediated problems causing the flair ups. Interestingly enough with any type of auto immune or immune mediated associated problems whatever they are usually first port of call is steroids to suppress the immune system and stop the immune system working overtime and causing the symptoms. Same goes for allergies steroids work then too for the same reaction. With immune and auto immune problems although vaccinations are not the actual cause as such, in a predisposed dog they are one of the known triggers that can set the immune/auto immune problem off.

Im still wondering if all Roos problems are immune system related in one form or another.

I know the WSAVA say this about adult boosters



> An adult dog that had received a complete course of core vaccinations as a puppy followed by the 12 month booster, but may not
> have been regularly vaccinated as an adult, requires only a single dose of core vaccine to boost immunity. Many current data sheets
> 
> will advise in this circumstance that the dog requires two vaccinations (as for a puppy) but this practice is unjustified and simply
> ...


http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Must admit it seems posibly more then a co-incidence that for a long time he was free of it and then vaccinate and he has a flair up. If I remember rightly we did investigate at one point immune/auto immune mediated problems causing the flair ups. Interestingly enough with any type of auto immune or immune mediated associated problems whatever they are usually first port of call is steroids to suppress the immune system and stop the immune system working overtime and causing the symptoms. Same goes for allergies steroids work then too for the same reaction. With immune and auto immune problems although vaccinations are not the actual cause as such, in a predisposed dog they are one of the known triggers that can set the immune/auto immune problem off.
> 
> Im still wondering if all Roos problems are immune system related in one form or another.
> 
> I know the WSAVA say this about adult boosters


Some sources do query allergies as being an auto immune condition, others discount it. Either way, if Rupert is *allergic* to something we've been trying to find out what for nearly four years and had no success whatsoever. My OH and I were discussing Rupert the other week and he will trundle along fine, then suddenly develop rashes. Its like his body just randomly decides to attack itself and wont let up unless we give him the steroids.

I have no idea what direction I should push right now. Moxxor capsules do seem to help a lot I mean he has been better these last few months than ever before 10 months of age.

I am aware what WSAVA say, the reason I have doubt in my head about him just having the one done, is because of memory cells. Like you said I contacted Dr Dodds who said even a titre result of 1 and they *should* be fine if they come into contact with the disease. My vet didn't disagree really, just said steroids suppress the immune system and we have no idea what state memory cells that we can't measure might be in. They could be great, or some of them could be damaged because of the amount of steroids he's had.

My biggest issue is that because of everything that goes wrong and all the medication Rupert has been on, he isn't a normal dog, is he? And because of that, whilst all the data says dog x and dog y are still immune after one booster, despite not being boostered for four years previous etc, they aren't dogs like Rupert who have been steroid dependent.

Do you understand my concern re the last paragraph SDH? That's my biggest hang up, whist there is research, its not on dogs like Rupert. And my original plan to titre test now then give the 2nd vaccination or not doesn't seem plausible, Dr Dodds said she didn't think two weeks was enough for the body to develop immunity when my vet said she thinks it was. So I feel another titre is/was pointless.

I bet the vet I want to speak to is really hard to get hold of. I kind of what to drag Rupert up there and just be like right what do you recommend now, he's been fine for 4-5 months, we vaccinate, and boom two weeks to the day look what we've got. A rash.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Some sources do query allergies as being an auto immune condition, others discount it. Either way, if Rupert is *allergic* to something we've been trying to find out what for nearly four years and had no success whatsoever. My OH and I were discussing Rupert the other week and he will trundle along fine, then suddenly develop rashes. Its like his body just randomly decides to attack itself and wont let up unless we give him the steroids.
> 
> I have no idea what direction I should push right now. Moxxor capsules do seem to help a lot I mean he has been better these last few months than ever before 10 months of age.
> 
> ...


It is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place I must admit and not knowing what to do for the best. As you say if steroids supress the immune system anyway, would they also suppress them as regards to making antibodies to the vaccination anyway or the ability ti produce antiboidies when clinically challenged with a disease, making them non responders I dont know the answer to that one Im afraid. I do know that steroid treatment as well as supressing the immune system, also supresses things like thyroid function too and can also cause iantrogenic (veterinary induced) cushings disease and play havoc with the adrenal gland part of the endocrine system, both of which can have effects on skin and coat health too. Thats why without double checking for sure, I believe thats why you have to taper off steroid treatment rather then stop it suddenly as it can play havoc with natural cortisol and associated production.

Again though its a rock and a hard place, if he has a flair up and steroids when bad is the only thing that has an effect, what you you do? I do feel for you its an awful position to be in and I do understand what you are saying 100%.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> It is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place I must admit and not knowing what to do for the best. As you say if steroids supress the immune system anyway, would they also suppress them as regards to making antibodies to the vaccination anyway or the ability ti produce antiboidies when clinically challenged with a disease, making them non responders I dont know the answer to that one Im afraid. I do know that steroid treatment as well as supressing the immune system, also supresses things like thyroid function too and can also cause iantrogenic (veterinary induced) cushings disease and play havoc with the adrenal gland part of the endocrine system, both of which can have effects on skin and coat health too. Thats why without double checking for sure, I believe thats why you have to taper off steroid treatment rather then stop it suddenly as it can play havoc with natural cortisol and associated production.
> 
> Again though its a rock and a hard place, if he has a flair up and steroids when bad is the only thing that has an effect, what you you do? I do feel for you its an awful position to be in and I do understand what you are saying 100%.


This is it, because he's not a normal dog and we still don't really know what's wrong, I just don't know what to do. This vet at the moment is fantastic with Rupert and she by no means tries to push us into things, she gives a variety of options and is more than willing to go with something completely different that I offer onto the table. Just feels like we're experimenting and I really, really don't feel comfortable with it. Technically if I don't give him this second booster he will never be up to date. If I get it done, then for three years he is covered according to the manufacturer and WSAVA etc. He will be 7.5 years old when it technically expires and at that point I think I would feel more comfortable to not revaccinate, particularly because I hope he wont have been relying on steroids if he makes it that far.

Moxxor seems to be an all around help, it has so many things in it and all the oils are cold pressed which are supposed to be more usable to the body too. I want to avoid having him on any maintenance dose of steroids at all really as like you say there are just all these problems; and he did get pancreatitis last September.....

My argument for this reaction being vaccine triggered as well, is that why are puppies not allowed out after their first shot? Because one shot isn't going to have given them enough immunity. It obviously continues to work and do things to their system, hence why you don't give the second until 2-4 weeks after this. I just think that fits perfectly with Rupert's rash two weeks to the day of the vaccination. Sure it wasn't immediate, but its not like dogs get vaccinated and its done its job within 24 hours is it, it obviously takes time.

When he's been weaned off steroids on a maintenance dose, he has gone down to 2.5mg every other day, then 2.5mg twice a week and then nothing. My vets think its quite safe to just give him 2.5mg, then not, then again and then not etc. This is why I've only given him 2.5mg, because its such a small dose I don't have to wean him off quite like when he was on 15mg every day for weeks at a time as a maintenance dose.

First thing tomorrow I'll ring up and request a callback from the vet I like I think. Just hope she wont completely disagree that it might be related, I think the odds are that it is. All clear of steroids October - end March. You can just look at his medical history to see the string of visits he normally has, but he had none. Then got vaccinated and here we are again!

Just want to do the best I can for him but its so hard to know what is the right thing at times


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Its hard to see from the pictures but is the skin itchy at all at first and starts with red welts that form blisters.

Just had a re-look and see if there is any auto immune diseases that may fit.
May not apply but there is one.

Bullous Pemphigoid
Bullous pemphigoid may sound like a form of pemphigus, but it is actually a different type of autoimmune skin disease.Bullous is the medical term for a large thin-walled sac filled with clear fluid. Usually the skin is very itchy and large red welts and hives may appear before or during the formation of blisters. Vesicles and ulcers may be found in the mouth, at mucocutaneous junctions,* and in the axillae (armpits) and groin.* Evaluation of the vesicles is critical to the diagnosis and because they rupture quickly after formation, the dog must often be hospitalized and examined every two hours until adequate biopsies can be obtained. Bullous pemphigoid resolves spontaneously in many cases.

There is alo this one that mentions the groin area dont know if any of the symptoms may be familiar.
Pemphigus complex

Pemphigus Foliaceus - The term means "leaf-like pemphigus" and this is the most common immune-mediated skin disease of dogs and cats. Pemphigus foliaceus is rarely found in the mouth or at mucocutaneous junctions. In this form of pemphigus, the patient develops crusts (scabs) and ulcers around the eyes, ears, footpads,* groin* and bridge of the nose. The Akita is reported to have a high incidence of this condition. Pemphigus foliaceus usually appears suddenly without a recognized cause, but in some cases, it may be drug-induced or can be the result of years of chronic skin disease

There is other auto immune skin problems on the link too but none seems to specifically mention the groin. Interestingly treatment for all is steroids

Autoimmune Skin Disease in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospitals

May be way off, but thought it may be worth a mention. If it does seem to be a possible might be worth doing more research on the conditions maybe?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

So Rupert's groin rash did need 2.5m pred to shift it (as well as slatherings of Fuciderm) so he is no longer steroid free 

He is one week post the second vaccination and so far so good. Two weeks is normally the typical time for his skin to flair up, but maybe the small amount f steroid in his system might even stop that happening. He's OK in himself anyway at least. Just have to see how he goes over summer and now all the pollen is out. Now its less muddy I might try walking him without a coat on and see how he fairs


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

He had a sore ear Sunday night (two weeks and a day after final vaccination) but it seems under control with Thornit...

I have just read 'Stop the Shots' by John Clifton. Its a good read, mentions the likes of Dr Dodds in there too. My dissertation topic is pretty much set in stone so I need all the background reading I can get, albeit less from a scientific view..!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

So sorry you are still having problems.

Have mentioned before my previous dog Benson had auto-immune illness (his was idio something arthritis rather than skin issues). His started out of the blue at 2 years old - week after boosters and to this day I believe that is what started it. I didn't vaccinate after that - obviously I am not a scientist or a vet but in my view his immune system was compromised so as should only vaccinate a well dog I did not like the idea. Additionally as he was on immune suppressants how would that react with jabs.

The vet we were seeing said Benson was one of the worst cases he had dealt with, often an initial high dose of steroids sort of blasts the system to work properly and symptoms then do not recur. In others keep getting flair ups so every now & then steroids needed again, yet others needed regular maintenance dose. 

Unfortunately in Benson's case steroids just did not work at all, trying lots of different meds until eventually got to Atopica which was the only thing that worked. I know you have issues with that but for Benson it was the only med that worked and gave him a good quality of life for his remaining 3 years - without it he couldn't get up let alone walk, whilst with it you would not know anything was wrong and he walked miles.

I know its a difficult decision but personally I wouldn't vaccinate. Dougie had his puppy jabs and booster, I did eventually have them at 2 because there was parvo in the area but I won't be doing any more.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> So sorry you are still having problems.
> 
> Have mentioned before my previous dog Benson had auto-immune illness (his was idio something arthritis rather than skin issues). His started out of the blue at 2 years old - week after boosters and to this day I believe that is what started it. I didn't vaccinate after that - obviously I am not a scientist or a vet but in my view his immune system was compromised so as should only vaccinate a well dog I did not like the idea. Additionally as he was on immune suppressants how would that react with jabs.
> 
> ...


I don't intend to vaccinate him ever again. The only real factor which swayed me to do it was that he's been on and off so much medication we don't know how successfully his body would react if he came into contact with something, and his titre test did show that things had dwindled. Technically even to my vets guidelines he is fine for three years. He will be 7.5 years old then and unless there is a massive outbreak of something and he has poor titres I really don't think he will be vaccinated again.

Thankfully these Moxxor capsules seem to be a bit of a wondrous thing at the moment, hoping that will last! Like Benson, I genuinely believe Rupert's problems are largely related to vaccination. His official diagnosis is 'atopic like dermatitis' because they still can't definitely say that he has an allergy, they don't know. I'm wary of things like worming and fleaing very regularly too, he gets prescribed Stronghold for his skin but I very rarely ever use it.

Its very tough, hoping we're on a positive bit for now!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

GoldenShadow said:


> I don't intend to vaccinate him ever again. The only real factor which swayed me to do it was that he's been on and off so much medication we don't know how successfully his body would react if he came into contact with something, and his titre test did show that things had dwindled. Technically even to my vets guidelines he is fine for three years. He will be 7.5 years old then and unless there is a massive outbreak of something and he has poor titres I really don't think he will be vaccinated again.
> 
> Thankfully these Moxxor capsules seem to be a bit of a wondrous thing at the moment, hoping that will last! Like Benson, I genuinely believe Rupert's problems are largely related to vaccination. His official diagnosis is 'atopic like dermatitis' because they still can't definitely say that he has an allergy, they don't know. I'm wary of things like worming and fleaing very regularly too, he gets prescribed Stronghold for his skin but I very rarely ever use it.
> 
> Its very tough, hoping we're on a positive bit for now!


How vet explained it to me was that there is a pre-disposition there and something provides the trigger to sent the immune system out of kilter - could be anything from a shock, insect bite (in my view it was the vaccs). Unfortunately they don't know what causes the pre-disposition, thoubh possibly hereditary, nor what causes the trigger.

Best of luck anyway


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## Jamiemattison (May 7, 2013)

Very interesting story but very sad at the same time. I know as I have a Boxer dog who has suffered for 8 years with constant ear infections, redness and itchy skin.

In case anyone has problems with ears I can recommend a product that I have recently ordered from Amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0025YOJXS/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Which is truly unbelievable.

I have used this for several days now on my dogs ears and they have completely cleared up, I can even see down them which I've never been able to do. 8 years she has suffered and after hundreds of pounds spent at the vets this product actually works. I combine this with Benedryl one-a-day and have no problem at all with my dog now, she is so happy.

Very frustrating having a dog with Allergies trying to pinpoint the cause but in 8 years we haven't been able to. Food changed, slight improvement but I suspect season Allergies to EVERYTHING and finally I have some drops that clear up her ears which are safe for daily use. LIFE SAVER!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Just had to clip a patch of his rump near his tail because he's getting a sore develop. Couldn't actually see it until I clipped his hair off. So he is back in a buster collar and has had some Fuciderm put on because he's really quite itchy and sore. Here's hoping that's all he needs!



DoodlesRule said:


> How vet explained it to me was that there is a pre-disposition there and something provides the trigger to sent the immune system out of kilter - could be anything from a shock, insect bite (in my view it was the vaccs). Unfortunately they don't know what causes the pre-disposition, thoubh possibly hereditary, nor what causes the trigger.
> 
> Best of luck anyway


That's very interesting, sounds easily believable!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Sore isn't that big but it's causing him a lot of bother. He's been in a buster collar since Weds night. He had a small dose of steroids about 3.5-4 weeks ago. This often happens a few weeks after just about when the steroids are exiting his system which is why I really want to avoid giving him anymore. Get stuck in the vicious cycle we did last year otherwise. His groin is looking OK at least, for now.

Was like this after being clipped on Weds night:









And now its like this. Has scabbed nicely but still causing him a lot of bother:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

So sorry Roo is having problems again, looks like you have quickly got it under control again though thankfully.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> So sorry Roo is having problems again, looks like you have quickly got it under control again though thankfully.


Thanks. Its typical the steroids are nearly out of his system so his body decides it doesn't like his skin again. Just need him to stop itching, he's still leaping around to try and bite at himself even though its all nicely scabbed. Might try an Episoothe bath tomorrow but I wanted it to be well healed before I put shampoo anywhere on him.

Its very useful having this thread


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

First 24 hours out of his buster collar today and so far he is behaving. He's started a big (for him) moult and so had an episoothe bath and has had most of it groomed out. Hopefully this was just a minor blip.

He had quite sore ears last night, hoping that wont develop into anything. Chucked thornit down them last night and this morning just in case.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> First 24 hours out of his buster collar today and so far he is behaving. He's started a big (for him) moult and so had an episoothe bath and has had most of it groomed out. Hopefully this was just a minor blip.
> 
> He had quite sore ears last night, hoping that wont develop into anything. Chucked thornit down them last night and this morning just in case.


Glad his skin seems better and he is OK without the collar so far, hoping the thornit does the trick too and starts to calm his ears down aswell. x


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Very sad to read your dogs skin trouble has flared up. Do you think this condition is because of vaccinations? I got my dogs 1st booster done just over a month ago and i noticed she has been itching and shes had conjunctivitis  I cannot help thinking it was because of the booster. Thankfully she hasn't been itching as much the past couple days. She will not get another booster for the rest of her life now for sure.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Very sad to read your dogs skin trouble has flared up. Do you think this condition is because of vaccinations? I got my dogs 1st booster done just over a month ago and i noticed she has been itching and shes had conjunctivitis  I cannot help thinking it was because of the booster. Thankfully she hasn't been itching as much the past couple days. She will not get another booster for the rest of her life now for sure.


I do think Rupert's condition is vaccination related, yes. Even my vets are in agreement now. Its plastered all over his notes that he must never be administered with Leptospirosis because he had what they class as a severe reaction in 2011 a few weeks after it.

Its tough to know what's the right thing to do. As he had so many steroids I didn't feel confident enough that his immune system was strong enough and so I went ahead and got him these ones as titres showed some levels were low. However, I do not intend to re vaccinate him unless a diseases becomes prevalent and he has very low titres/is considered at risk in any other way.

There are some books out there which are interesting reads if you are in any way inclined. I am in no way doubting the benefits of vaccination, but when you come across a dog like Rupert its tough to sit on your hands when some vets don't abide by the guidelines manufacturers set


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Another sore 

On his leg this time which is a first. Doesn't look that bad but this is why I always clip them, the redness actually extends quite far on an area about 12cm x 5cm  Started fussing over it at about 4am this morning as my OH put him in his buster collar. Hopefully can just be treated topically.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

How long have you gone without a flare up of the condition before?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> How long have you gone without a flare up of the condition before?


He went about 5 months between November and April. That's the longest I can recall. He has had issues for just shy of four years now.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Your tenacity and perseverance in dealing with Rupert's problems are amazing.


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

So pleased to hear that there may be light at the end of the tunnel for Roo. 

Your perseverance has finally paid off and wow - what a difference. 

I remember reading your posts when I first came on this forum as I wanted every scrap of information regarding itchy dogs as Chio was in a terrible state. 

We are almost clear now for most of the time after starting raw feeding, so compared to you we have had it relatively easy. Its still always a worry though in the back of my mind so lord knows what you have been through. 

Thank you for sharing. May Roo's good health continue. :thumbsup:


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

it may not help but two of my boys get groin rashs at times don't know why but they flare up and we have been treating them with Horseware Hypocare.

it costs about £15 for a 500ml bottle but boy does it work, its great on hotspots and lots of other things and a lot of dog owners I know swear by the stuff. It may help cut out the steroids, also good for itching as well.so may give your boy some relief.

perhaps worth a try


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

found this article and thought it might help someone

Interesting article: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites...eficiency.aspx


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## garymark66 (Jul 15, 2013)

Ruby is our Dogue de Bordeaux and she joined our family as a puppy in May 2009, at the age of just 10 months Ruby started to scratch and itch and was clearly in discomfort. We took Ruby to the vet who informed us she had skin and food allergies and an over active immune system. We then began a programme of allergy tests costing 1.000's of pounds, with an immunisation being designed for her, lots of anti biotics (costing 100;s of pounds) a specialist vet who only deals with skin problems and almost every treatment available, none of which worked satisfactorily and certainly did not help Ruby. 3 years on and we still didn't have a suitable treatment plan that worked just bills upon bills from vets that had not worked and a dog that itched and scratched until she was red raw, covered in spots,with huge patches of glad skin and dry patches !! Ruby was on a daily course of steroids (prednidale) and the result was nothing more than a bloated stomach and a cone head due to muscle loss brought about as a direct side effect, in addition this can cause deterioration of the liver and kidneys, not good. In May this year we again contacted the vet who advised perhaps we have Ruby destroyed as we had tried every available option, for us this was NOT an option. Then we found a specialist pet care website www.ynotpetcare that supplied a 100% natural product derived from emu oil of all things, we purchased an allergy pack, which is shampoo with emu oil and a one month supply of emu oil capsules all 100% natural with no side effects. We bathed Ruby twice a week at first using the shampoo and gave her 2 capsules per day, I won't lie initially I was sceptical, however one week later and there was a noticeable improvement, two weeks and no more dry nose and dry patches and the hair was growing back, Ruby has now been on the emu oil capsules for 6 weeks and we bathe her every two weeks (more out of habit than necessity) The yeast infections have died down, as have the ear infections, her coat is perfect and she has a wet nose. Ruby is back to a a standard we had NEVER seen in her since she was a puppy, those of you who have animals with similar issues will know exactly what i'm talking about. All we can add is "THANK YOU YNOTPETCARE AND EMU OIL!!

here is the website for Ynot Pet Care ynotpetcare


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

General update on the old fella now he's 5!

Developed a sore on his back and then one on his right thigh so he has two bald spots and spent a good week in his buster collar. Put Fuciderm on a few times and his lack of access (to the leg one) helped them heal.

This was the one on his back after I clipped around it:









A few weeks before this he got a grass seed stuck in his ear. He had to be sedated to have this removed and his ear flared up horribly after this which meant I had to give him 2.5mg pred twice in one week to help shift it. I think this is why he got the sore on his back and leg to be honest, its classic steroids exiting his system and his body having a go at him. Hopefully now these sores are healed we're all good for another little while.

He's had mucky ears, particularly the grass seed one in the last few weeks. The grass seed one more than I think I've ever seen, but luckily that seems to be balancing back out now. I gently clean the wax from a little down the canal and ear flap, chuck Thornit on his ear flap and this seems to help encourage work more of it out.

Still feel like getting him those vaccinations in April was a massive aggravator of all of this. Hopefully things will trundle along for now and he can cope on just the Moxxor


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

victoria171168 said:


> it may not help but two of my boys get groin rashs at times don't know why but they flare up and we have been treating them with Horseware Hypocare.
> 
> it costs about £15 for a 500ml bottle but boy does it work, its great on hotspots and lots of other things and a lot of dog owners I know swear by the stuff. It may help cut out the steroids, also good for itching as well.so may give your boy some relief.
> 
> perhaps worth a try


Cor I like the sound of that, just read a bit off the website! Will run it past the vets next time I speak to them (he's due more meds in a month or so) and get them to make sure it would be suitable for him.


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## Scabbers (Jul 26, 2013)

Could it be crop spraying that's setting him off. I have mentioned in baileys allergies thread that a friend of mine was badly affected by them as it caused him to get cluster headaches.


Maby leave the area and see if it helps for a while?

Also maby diatomaceous earth absorbs toxins and allergens. Maby add it to his diet and see if it helps?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Scabbers said:


> Could it be crop spraying that's setting him off. I have mentioned in baileys allergies thread that a friend of mine was badly affected by them as it caused him to get cluster headaches.
> 
> Maby leave the area and see if it helps for a while?
> 
> Also maby diatomaceous earth absorbs toxins and allergens. Maby add it to his diet and see if it helps?


Moved 140 miles three years ago and kept him completely away from fields of any kind for specific periods of time and it didn't make a difference to him sadly. I know when they spray the fields around here and they're all wheat which are being cut and bailed now. Sadly his seems very non environmental specific and more triggered by medication and withdrawal.

I have heard of DE but then had doubt thrown in by others on the ability to obtain it in a guaranteed pure/undiluted form. Is there a specific retailer you can recommend? I think I heard some other negative press I will have to have another read. Thanks for your post.


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## Scabbers (Jul 26, 2013)

I buy it off ebay  £30 for 25kg food grade


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Poor boy, those first pictures look so painful, but wow what an improvement!! Sounds as if you have both been through a lot, im really pleased you managed to find something that works for Rupert. He looks like a lovely boy.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Still got slightly iffy ears but they're our worst problem at the moment so its not too much of a problem at all considering. Its getting a fair bit itchy but I think its a combination of his summer moult as well. He's not had a bath in a few weeks now and is doing well considering that.

Reminds me to ask vets about that horsey product


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Ears are finally beginning to settle. He has had some hairloss on his shoulders and down his spine but this appears to be tapering off. I hoped it was just winter coat etc but he has lost more than he should.

Doing OK, though. Not overly itchy and generally enjoying life


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## cherrygold (Oct 26, 2013)

Hello group. I have just come across this group by accident, and after reading the story of Rupert (Golden Shadow) I felt I must join and try and make contact with this poor owner. I have bred Golden Retrievers for 20 years, I have shown at the top level and am at present a Championship show judge. I have here 2 Show Champions, what could be better one asks. As we all know losing a dear friend so close to the heart is beyond words. I have only bred 4 litters in 20 years so never bred for money, never owned a stud dog, all I was interested in was a bit of fun and you could say " I got lucky" with how my hobby went. Until 2011. I lost my friend for life my dear Hollie in 2008 with a heart tumor. I took it bad and is true to say I never got over her. I continued my judging but could no longer face the show world as I found it so hard to see how easy it was for some to deal with the loss when it was so clear I could not, and was obviously not coping.I was also dealing with the loss of 30 years of marriage and it all got too much. This left me with 5 Goldens. I moved on with my life, met someone else, settled down and he wanted to support me getting back into dog showing. This I tried and almost managed. We then decided to have a litter and start again. New man, new start, judging appoints flowing in and a big welcome back to the show world. What could be better. I studied long and hard with regard to a stud dog. Problem is Goldens now are sometimes so closely bred that I wonder what we are doing. I decided on a dog and went ahead with the mating. It went like clockwork. 8 lovely puppies 5 bitches 3 dogs. We decided to keep TWO yes TWO bitches, this was to be a new start. We kept 2 girls Hope & Whitnie.

I knew nothing would ever take the place of Hollie but this was a way of moving on with my life. As soon as they were 6 months old I started to show them. Whitnie won everything, Hope had a conjunctivitis problem so I kept her home (or so I thought) The world was coming back, a new start. At 8 mths old I came downstairs to find Hope's head swollen on one side. A bite I thought. Up to the vets who may I add is in my mind the best it gets. Steroid injection and it wend down. Just as a sting. Next day, up again. It was a gland the size of a small apple!! It was so unusual my vet decided to do a biopsy. Inconclusive, how can it be?? It showed inflamed glands but nothing else. All puzzled, but as she is so young it's bound to be something that can be sorted. (so we thought) Two weeks later gland went down and she developed droopy eyes. Every eye drop under the sun did not change it, then she started sneezing to such an extent her nose was bleeding. What ever is this??? We decided to come off all eye medication and then do another swab when med free. Negative, showed nothing. Then nasal biopsy...negative. Hope was getting worse, no one knew why and no one could help her. My head and heart were destroyed, we had to do something. We tried anti histamines everything, nothing worked, whatever it was had the ability to mimic other conditions and the lab were at a loss. At last in Jan 2012 hope developed lesions on her skin. We went down the road of Rupert. Nothing. Then we decided to take one of these lesions out and send it off to the lab. Mid Jan results were back. I was called to my surgery and faced a very long faced vet. Cancer??? I said as that's what we all dread. NO, he said. That's ok then, just get on and make her better, as I had forgotten what she looked like, where had my pretty little girl gone??

Not as easy as that he said. Hope's diagnosis was:-
Canine Reactive Systemic Histiocytosis. What is this?? it is one of the autoimmune conditions where there is little hope and no known cure. At 10 months old??? please god no. I will refer this as histio to save the typing. Histio comes in 3 forms. Cutaneous (skin only ) systemic (skin and eyes nasal cavity) and MALIGNANT!!. Malignant Histio is a word every Bernese Mountain dog owner fears, it is what is killing their breed and will kill in weeks. No Hope No Cure. We had Systemic. Can't tell you where I was, only at least I still had Whitnie. This is very very very rare. My vet had never seen it before. I wanted to fight all the way for Hope, never give up until I had to. I had insurance and a great vet. Hope's diagnosis came on the Thursday. y vet rang on the Monday and wanted to do full bloods. All came back as clear. So what Is Histiocytosis. It is in a nutshell the immune systems inability to regulate it'self, and as a result of this the immune system is CONVINCED that the dog is sick when it is not. It sends out cells to fight what is not there. We think may be foods, washing powder, grass and a billion other day to day things. When it is the malfunction of the immune system itself. The cells go around the body ready to fight what is not there. In bernese these cells feed from the organs and are cancerous. They then kill the dog. It's one thing having this. but with no research or medication or cure I was scared to death. After Hope's bloods we ok. we started her on ATOPICA. I read dear ruperts story and just want to clarify, a few things. ATOPICA is NOT steroid based, it is cyclosporine NOT STEROID. I had a choice and chose ATOPICA guided from my vet. In 6 days Hope was clear of all, with no side effects. The journey ahead long, maybe for life but she had a chance. ATOPICA is licensed for chronic skin dermatitis, and does suppress the immune system as steroid. It has its own risks of course but no withdraw period as with steroid.
Hope made great progress but with histio cure is a guarded word, it settles down for weeks then comes back but at least we were in control. How do you think I felt when 3 weeks later Whitnie was diagnosed with the same. My god where do we go from here. We acted quickly, straight to ATOPICA as we knew. whenever you suppress the immune system you are at risk. Whitnie has a few problems along the way, Hope had a pyo in feb this year and had to be spayed at 22 mths. Whitnie was weaned of very slowly of ATOPICA, not because of side effects but how do you know how well you have :re educated the immune system: you cant measure it, you can't monitor it, you only know by looking at the dog. 150mg per day is the dose. It had us at it for 2 years. Whitnie was taken off ATOPICA Dec 2012 and is clear, we have the odd lesion which we sit wait and watch. We don't reach for ATOPICA until it gets out of hand. Her immune system is now holding it's own. As for Hope it took longer because it took so long to find this but once we knew re Whitnie we got going with treatment straight away. Hope has been on 25 mg ATOPICA for the last year and has been clear since Nov 2012. We have now taken her off and she is clear. Both girls are fit they weigh 33 - 35kg are greedy and the love of my life. I will never step into a dog ring again, I am done with all this. It's about hips, temperament, and eyes???. not for me. In my view you can breed these things out, what we have here we need a miracle. Hope & Whitnie are little start and their records I have made available for research purposes. Already they are helping another sufferer. We had nothing to follow, no one to talk to because it is so rare. We have learnt so much. The worst experience of my life without a doubt but they are here, they now have the rest of their lives. ATOPICA like any medication has to be given under the right supervision, checked weekly and fine tuned if necessary. They will never :not have this disease: a bit like diabetes, but the immune system, now is holding it's own. I will never vaccinate, ever as all this would have been in vain if I did. Until the day come when we do understand the immune system we have to go with the best choices and for me ATOPICA saved their lives along with my vet who deserves a medal. Thank you for taking the time to read Hope & whitnies story. Jayne


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Updating this after an incredibly long time out 

Towards the end of April Rupert had to be rushed to the emergency vets at 3am. He and bloat symptoms and ended up having a tube inserted into his stomach to remove excess gas/stomach acid. They believe he may have had another pancreatic bout at the same time, so a low fat food content has become of more importance than it was before. He ended up on antibiotics for about 10 days as they were worried about peritonitis and his raised temperature. Turns out he gets that stressed when he goes to the vets that his body temperature is approximately 2 degrees centigrade higher than when at home. I think it was about 39.6 in the vets and it was 37.9 within two hours of being home.

Rupert now eats two, if not three times daily, receives 2 x scoops Pro Texin Pro Fibre Pellets, 2 x Zantac tablets and his 2 x Moxxor capsules split between his meals.

Fast forward four weeks and two days and Rupert has a huge groin rash again, but only on the right side thankfully. Shaved a huge amount of hair off and been slapping Fuciderm and Vetzyme powder on it left right and centre. Was tough trying to decide whether to make him forgo oral steroids or not. 

I'm convinced this is a reaction to the injected steroids and other medication he had four weeks ago, so by giving him more oral steroids he will basically have withdrawal again in a few more weeks, but it will be worse than this time. If I took him to any vet their instant reaction would be to give him a steroid shot, but my vets are quite happy for me to manage his skin myself and only bring him in when I think he's in too much pain/its not manageable.

In the end he was in a buster collar and had quite an unhappy 24-36 hours, but he is quite a lot better now. Currently eating a frozen kong without his buster collar but that will go back on shortly. Probably be in that for a week or two but hopefully slapping the Vetzyme on he won't get a skin infection on the rash site. It does look lots better, but if it is red in any way still after a couple more days he will go to the vets and probably be given antibiotics just in case. I like trying to avoid them where possible because for his last groin rash he was on them for about 3.5 weeks because it just wouldn't shift. The ones they think are the best for him he seems a little resistant to already.

Its hard because I feel quite mean/guilty when he's desperate to bite at himself but its either that in the short term, or give him meds, be better in the short term and have a more severe bout return in another month - six weeks.

Being steroid free seems to be his very best bet of optimum skin health, the Fuciderm as a topical steroid doesn't seem to affect him hugely and my vets say it doesn't stay in the system like oral or injected versions, hence doesn't suffer withdrawal.

Oh, and with the pancreatitis that made me more reluctant to use oral steroids too! Some dispute the connection but when he had pancreatitis in Sept 2012 I was told to get him off them cold turkey immediately. So its a tough balancing act for him.

Also got the cupboard stacked with charcoal tablets if he has anymore bloat symptoms, need to get some Gaviscon as Antepsin isn't available for the foreseeable. Gets a CSJ Dem Bones treat at bedtime with activated charcoal too, so he thinks life is pretty great :roll eyes:

He has gotten a bit chubby, mind. Just over 30kgs now and I prefer him closer to 29. Not hugely worried because I can up his exercise, he has had a more sedate pace of life lately.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Photo is inner thigh and groin, left side. Weird texture that looks flaky is dried on Vetzyme powder, it's not his skin, promise. Looks less red in real life and is lots better than it was.



Enjoying his Sumo Play from his Secret Santa whilst having a break from his buster collar


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Rupert is recovering from colitis. Skin now flared up. No evident triggers aside from medication for colic a month ago exiting his system and new Dorwest digestive powder. Latter will be reintroduced very gradually.

I think I need to regiment his diet a lot more. Just not strict enough in terms of too much variation.


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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Considering this as his diet. Would need to add in a small amount of offal but need to do the Maths...

Oh and the boy turned 6 on Tuesday just gone  missed out on his raw smoked salmon fillets as unwell though, so Carmen and Milo got them!


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

I think McKenzie would kill for that diet! 

It's so hard to be regimented with things isn't it.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> I think McKenzie would kill for that diet!
> 
> It's so hard to be regimented with things isn't it.


Thanks! Raw feeding groups always suggest variety is everything I find  in reality Roo and Milo had chicken and tripe for a good year and were in just as good a condition as they are now. The Nutriment puppy is just chicken mince with tripe, some offal and some veg in. It's relatively low in fat though for raw. And of course I know what the content is.

Hoping the carcasses will keep his teeth going OK but may buy some Tropiclean too...

I don't think he will be any better on cooked food but it's easier to know fat content and the like.

How is McKenzie doing?


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

GoldenShadow said:


> Thanks! Raw feeding groups always suggest variety is everything I find  in reality Roo and Milo had chicken and tripe for a good year and were in just as good a condition as they are now. The Nutriment puppy is just chicken mince with tripe, some offal and some veg in. It's relatively low in fat though for raw. And of course I know what the content is.
> 
> Hoping the carcasses will keep his teeth going OK but may buy some Tropiclean too...
> 
> ...


Ah that's right - I forgot you had the added problem of fat content.

Kenzie's just on possum mince right now as I can't get rabbit or wallaby currently. She's doing really well on it and has put on weight. But she is scratching a bit - not a lot, but I'm watching her closely. I'm not sure if it's 'normal' scratching, or if something is mildly irritating her - the possum, or a 'left-over reaction' to the beef, or if she's getting something she shouldn't at daycare (I keep forgetting to check with them), or if a seasonal allergy is starting as we're heading towards spring. I really hope it's not the seasonal thing!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Roo is better in himself today but the rash is spreading. Definitely going to need the vets Monday for some antibiotics I think. I will ring Argos Vetphone tomorrow and see what they say also, I've never used them but you can speak directly to a vet nurse apparently and then perhaps he may even go tomorrow.

His temperature is 37.9 (usually 37.2) but that was after I cleaned and powdered his sore bits. Hopefully he will be feeling OK in the morning. Colitis all gone at the mo and he is eating and drinking well.












New spots appearing on his groin


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2014)

Oh ouch!!! Poor, poor boy, that looks awful


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## itchybailey (Dec 4, 2014)

Can you please tell me where you can buy this RA joint formula?


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