# the alpha myth for dogs



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

found this interesting The Alpha Myth for Dogs. A new way of understanding how dogs learn and work


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

as a believer of the whole pack/dominance theory, this has made me think - and to be honest I'm pretty sure my mind has changed. 

Let's see if I can change my mums mind... she is insistent on Pippa eating last - not really a massive issue, seeing as Pip probably just sees it as part of our routine.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Interesting article



dandogman said:


> as a believer of the whole pack/dominance theory, this has made me think - and to be honest I'm pretty sure my mind has changed.
> 
> Let's see if I can change my mums mind... she is insistent on Pippa eating last - not really a massive issue, seeing as Pip probably just sees it as part of our routine.


Dan I recommend you read In Defence of Dogs by John Bradshaw. There is a whole chapter investigating pack/dominance theory and it makes compelling reading


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I like the article, especially the analogy to the Orcas.

That said, his plug for his own leads did detract slightly, for me.


I think Jean Donaldson is the best; just my humble opinion.


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## sbonnett76 (Apr 6, 2010)

dandogman said:


> as a believer of the whole pack/dominance theory, this has made me think - and to be honest I'm pretty sure my mind has changed.
> 
> Let's see if I can change my mums mind... she is insistent on Pippa eating last - not really a massive issue, seeing as Pip probably just sees it as part of our routine.


Dominance Fact or Fiction by Barry Eaton is another good read. There's a lot that makes sense as does In Defence of Dogs.

One of the things I found interesting, which relates to your comment about the dog eating last is that in the wild, if a kill wasn't too plentiful, the young wolves would eat first to ensure their survival. If the kill was plentiful, the whole pack would eat together as a family unit. I've certainly opened my mind to the whole alpha / dominance theory as I've done more research. I don't condemn the word dominance as some do, but I like how the dictionary defines it as influence over others. As humans, I think we have a duty of care to influence our dogs to help them live happily in the environment that we've created for them. That doesn't mean we need to try and make them believe that we're the top dog in the pack. We just need to be the ones who control the resources and use that in a positive way to teach our dogs how to behave. Not that it always works mind!

If I started alpha rolling Roxy, I'd probably get bitten. Not because she was trying to dominate me, but because she was utterly terrified!


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## sbonnett76 (Apr 6, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I like the article, especially the analogy to the Orcas.
> 
> That said, his plug for his own leads did detract slightly, for me.
> 
> I think Jean Donaldson is the best; just my humble opinion.


The Culture Clash is on my list of recommended reading for my course although I haven't got it yet.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> as a believer of the whole pack/dominance theory, this has made me think - and to be honest I'm pretty sure my mind has changed.
> 
> Let's see if I can change my mums mind... she is insistent on Pippa eating last - not really a massive issue, seeing as Pip probably just sees it as part of our routine.


Letting them eat first is much easier imo - stops them begging :lol:

Why not just ask your mum to try it for a week so she realises it has naff all to do with anything


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

dandogman said:


> as a believer of the whole pack/dominance theory, this has made me think - and to be honest I'm pretty sure my mind has changed.
> 
> Let's see if I can change my mums mind... she is insistent on Pippa eating last - not really a massive issue, seeing as Pip probably just sees it as part of our routine.


 You've changed your mind! I am so impressed you'd say that after defending it so often :thumbup1: Rep for you.



sbonnett76 said:


> *Dominance Fact or Fiction by Barry Eaton is another good read. There*'s a lot that makes sense as does In Defence of Dogs.


I suggested you read this agggges ago Dan! The dominance theory has been proved to be inaccurate. Even the man, whose name has escaped me, who first said that this is how wolves act, has now said he was mistaken!

Now you can come over to the good side Dan, come joins us and rejoice!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Also Dan I find it really funny when I meet people who believe in the whole eating thing - their faces are always so shocked when I say I couldn't care less about when Kes eats - she's the only one in this house with a feeding schedule - We don't have dinner every night either so she'd be a very hungry dog if we insisted on feeding her after we ate


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Way too deep for me to be bothered with. *Barbara Woodhouse* or Victoria Stilwell is good enough for me. That and my own rules I set keep the dogs in line.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're HILARIOUS in your stupidity

No need to worry - school starts again soon


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## sbonnett76 (Apr 6, 2010)

Alice Childress said:


> You've changed your mind! I am so impressed you'd say that after defending it so often :thumbup1: Rep for you.
> 
> I suggested you read this agggges ago Dan! The dominance theory has been proved to be inaccurate. Even the man, whose name has escaped me, who first said that this is how wolves act, has now said he was mistaken!
> 
> Now you can come over to the good side Dan, come joins us and rejoice!


John Fisher? He's the guy who set up the Think Dog course I'm doing and although he's dead now, he apparently started to question much of what he wrote about in his book. David Mech is another one who was very pro alpha, but again as more research came to light, changed his opinions too. It's hard not to really!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> You've changed your mind! I am so impressed you'd say that after defending it so often :thumbup1: Rep for you.
> 
> I suggested you read this agggges ago Dan! The dominance theory has been proved to be inaccurate. Even the man, whose name has escaped me, who first said that this is how wolves act, has now said he was mistaken!
> 
> Now you can come over to the good side Dan, come joins us and rejoice!


Thank you for the rep! 



Phoolf said:


> Letting them eat first is much easier imo - stops them begging :lol:
> 
> Why not just ask your mum to try it for a week so she realises it has naff all to do with anything


I would, but I think it works quite well as she is walked before dinner, then she has time to relax while we are eating, then she can eat safely (bloat), if I fed her before us, she would have been running 30 mins ago.



Phoolf said:


> Also Dan I find it really funny when I meet people who believe in the whole eating thing - their faces are always so shocked when I say I couldn't care less about when Kes eats - she's the only one in this house with a feeding schedule - We don't have dinner every night either so she'd be a very hungry dog if we insisted on feeding her after we ate


hahahaha


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Way too deep for me to be bothered with. Barbara Woodhouse or Victoria Stilwell is good enough for me. That and my own rules I set keep the dogs in line.


How's that working out for ya?
Last I checked you were asking for help because your dog pulls like a freight train and nips people who try to pet her.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Anyone read Lone Wolf by Jodi Picoult?
This lady writes novels usually dealing with difficult situations that we often wonder what would I do if.............
This book is no different. The story is about a man who is seriously injured in an accident and is lying in a coma. The recommendation is to switch off life support and let him die, but not all members of the family agree and so the story goes on and unfolds. What has this to do with dogs, you may ask
The man in the coma, is someone who has a captive wolf pack and is fascinated by them. He has learnt how to interact with them and be accepted, but has also lived in the wilds of Canada with a wild pack. This story is told in flashbacks throughout the book and makes interesting if not somewhat incredible reading. Jodi Picoult is meticulous when researching her novels and she spoke at length to Shaun Ellis who apparently did live with a wild wolf pack. Worth a read.

I found the link very interesting, thank you for posting it. I have bookmarked it for further reading as there are a number of other articles to read on the website. I guess it is inevitable there is a selling oppourtunity involved which takes the shine off, but I feel there is good common sense in what he is saying. 

I normally feed my dogs before we eat. Golden Retriever drool is remarkably hard to shift.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

...............


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

awww, Barbara Woodhouse....sit, SIT!!!!!
She wasnt great with dogs but I bet she would of made a fearsome teacher!!

I never really bought into the dominance thing....my dogs are less then 1/30th my size so the thought they might think they are in charge makes me laugh!!


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Way too deep for me to be bothered with. Barbara Woodhouse or Victoria Stilwell is good enough for me. That and my own rules I set keep the dogs in line.


So I needed a refresher on Barbara's methods. I'm old.. but not that old. Youtube found me this little gem...

[youtube_browser]0v5ZNc5dm2M[/youtube_browser]


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

diefenbaker said:


> So I needed a refresher on Barbara's methods. I'm old.. but not that old. Youtube found me this little gem...
> 
> [youtube_browser]0v5ZNc5dm2M[/youtube_browser]


SITTT SITTTT SITTTTTTTTT :lol:

Hilarious - my dad tries out her methods and while quite cruel I still can't help but snigger at him struggling with a little cavalier :lol:

'HEEEL CHARLIE HEEEEEEL'

'Uh Dad - does Charlie know what a heel is '


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> What's wrong with Babara Woodhouse? Taught plenty of dogs, wrote a book on it too, she can't be that bad. Old ways are the best usually.


it doesn't make her a dog guru. her methods are seriously, seriously , outdated.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> What's wrong with Babara Woodhouse? Taught plenty of dogs, wrote a book on it too, she can't be that bad. Old ways are the best usually.
> 
> Very well actually. I finally stopped the little sod from pulling me around. Good strong lead, and not letting her move if she wasn't where I wanted her, quick tug on the lead if she forgets, yep she's deffinately improved. She knows now if she pulls I'll take her straight back to the house and forget the walk altogether. Obviously needed a tough no nonsense approach as she's a pushy dog.


I will grant you - training the Woodhouse way probably will work, but I would rather make my dog want to behave, than fear the consequences if she didn't - makes for a happier human and dog.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

............


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Old ways are the best usually.


Oh, absolutely! That's why we still practice blood letting for fevers and treat syphilis with arsenic and give children cocaine to calm their coughs.

Oh... wait...


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Well their better than that Ceaser Millan guy who tells you to roll a dog over! Know whose methods I'd use to train my dog.


not really. if she was on TV right now , she'd probably be praising shock and prong collars


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

............


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Yes, but my dog's pushy, likes her own way. Softly softly didn't work, this does. So I'm sticking to it. Isn't that what you do with training your dog? Find a method that suits you and works for you?


Nope. I find motivators that suit the dog and work for the dog.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

dandogman said:


> than fear the consequences if she didn't - makes for a happier human


This. The thought that my boy is frightened of me scares the hell out of me.. successful training method or not.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Yes, but my dog's pushy, likes her own way. Softly softly didn't work, this does. So I'm sticking to it. Isn't that what you do with training your dog? Find a method that suits you and works for you?


man, that sounds like a depressing way to train a dog TBH. Just being constantly combative as the dog pushes you and you push back. Id rather my lot wanted to do what I said coz I am the best thing in their world and fabulous stuff happens when I am there!! (like I am a canines version of Willy Wonka!!LOL).


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

no no no...reading this article...i pull just one line of it out to disagree with...

[1. dispute ...B]The only reason that a dog will aggressively pin another dog down on its side or over on its back is to kill it.[/B]

*RUBBISH ! am i BLIND ? have i and others not seen MAny times dogs do this to other dogs to SUBDUE them only NOT kill them !*

i get fed up with people trying like in yes THE CULTURE CLASH i read and disliked for several fundatmental reasons also...trying to turn generally accepted ideas totally around just for the sake of it

DEMOCRACY !!! well this latest HUMAN concept tried in families with KIDS has led in my view to unruly kids not knowing LIMITS and WHO IS HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD puts food on the table so THEY SPEAK FIRST !

*2nd Point to dispute.. BREEDERS NOT ALPHAS the new fangled term this artible tries to use instead of ALPHA COUPLE in wolves...*

well well excuse me but that is just playing with words...a couple that DOMINATES to use an old fashioned term is not ALPHA ???

i observe my dogs...

1. there is one dog who eats first, they settle that. only if it happens to concern its own dish known to it will my subordinate male challenge my female

2. in human society as in dogs or any animal there are LEADERS yes even in my GOATS i saw that ! for hens it is or was called until someone tells me here there is a NEW FANGLED term for it..PECKING ORDER !

lol !!!! 

ps i disapprove of rolling dogs on backs...i was young when that nutcase woodhouse came on and put me off in fact dog experts then it took me YEARS to go near them again !

i do Grab my dogs by neck instead of spanking them now i admit...seems mother dogs do that to pups and is less violent than bottom smacking which i do rarely rarely but i do lose temper sometimes yes

ppss welcome back wobbles ! laughing to see you are not a DELTA FEARFUL SUBDUED BY ALPHAS OF THE PACK about to tear you to pieces again hey !!! lol !!

ps have to go out...my insubordinate dogs are doing all they can to distract me to go for walk...taking MY THINGS is a guarantee they have learnt to get my attention !! MINE I AM YELLING but yes i am going out


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Also Dan I find it really funny when I meet people who believe in the whole eating thing - their faces are always so shocked when I say I couldn't care less about when Kes eats - she's the only one in this house with a feeding schedule - We don't have dinner every night either so she'd be a very hungry dog if we insisted on feeding her after we ate


"MUUUUUUM its been 3 days since you ate last PLEASE can you eat so I can eat too?!" :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> no no no...reading this article...i pull just one line of it out to disagree with...
> 
> [1. dispute ...B]The only reason that a dog will aggressively pin another dog down on its side or over on its back is to kill it.[/B]
> 
> *RUBBISH ! am i BLIND ? have i and others not seen MAny times dogs do this to other dogs to SUBDUE them only NOT kill them !*


I don't know what dogs you're watching but the dogs I'm watching the roll is never forced. The submissive dog OFFERS the position. It might look forces as the correcting dog is probably making a lot of noise and display, but no, the dog on the ground offered that position, was not forced in to it.

If the roll is forced you end up with a massive dog fight, or in the case of a human forcing it, you often (not always but often) end up with a dog who goes in to panic and self-preservation mode and ends up biting in self-defense.

Pretty much every trainer who knows anything about anything - even the correction based trainers (the knowledgeable ones) will tell you alpha rolls are stupid. In fact the Monks of New Skeete who re-popularized the technique later recanted and regretted putting it in their book and have removed the technique from later editions.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> It is. She just pushes and pushes, always trying the boundaries, always seeing how far she can push me. If I give her an inch, she takes a yard. My fault I suppose for taking the biggest pup in the litter, because she had the markings I wanted. I want a Pom next time, never have another collie again.


If you create a relationship with your dog that is combative and confrontational, then yes, your dog will respond in kind. It's not the dog's personality, it's more the relationship you have created.

If instead you create a relationship with your dog of cooperation, mutual trust, and mutual understanding, you find that the dogs are much more willing and eager to engage. IME at least


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> It is. She just pushes and pushes, always trying the boundaries, always seeing how far she can push me. If I give her an inch, she takes a yard. My fault I suppose for taking the biggest pup in the litter, because she had the markings I wanted. I want a Pom next time, never have another collie again.


sounds like you need to find something she really REALLY likes... be that a ball, food, strokes - whatever and start of slowly and reward lots - as your dog gets used to how you want it to behave you will be able to reduce the reward.

For instance Pippa is really motivated by food and tennis balls. - we have used these to reward her for recalling - especially from other dogs (she really likes dogs) and so far it is working really really well. Much better than I was advised by my (old) gundog trainer - yank and rough up basically! so I have tried the old fashioned methods, but we both much prefer the kind methods AND I now have a much better behaved dog!


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

*If the dog is misbehaving such as barking. nipping, biting or other behavioural problems, simply pick up the lead with no command or visual acknowledgement and take the dog to another room. (a downstairs toilet is ideal). Place the dog in the room and shut the door trapping the lead in the door, so the dog cannot move too far away or entertain itself.*

The author is an expert, right? So, just for discussion, I've taken the above paragraph from the article.

In my humble opinion, a barking, nipping, biting dog would more than likely have a behavioural problem because of a lack of stimulation or exercise or confidence through poor ownership.

I would suggest the owner had the behavioural problem by not understanding or fulfilling the dogs needs, so how, exactly, would shutting the dog in the downstairs toilet be of benefit?

I'm surprised the author of the article didn't recommend leaving a copy of a dog behaviour book in there for it to muse over.

I'm quite tired of dog behaviour experts. I just give my dogs a couple of hours exercise and stimulation in the morning, a really calm, resting time during the day and another couple of hours doing 'stuff' out and about in the late afternoon/evening.

Lock 'em in the downstairs loo? Good advice?


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

i do Grab my dogs by neck instead of spanking them now i admit...seems mother dogs do that to pups and is less violent than bottom smacking which i do rarely rarely but i do lose temper 



How exactly is grabbing a dog by its neck less violent then smacking it?? BOTH ARE VIOLENT, both are unnecessary, 
Mother dogs move their pups etc with there mouth BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE HANDS!!!!! They have no other means the teach the dog.......but humans do. 
a mother dog will NEVER hurt their puppy using this technique. So if you as the owner hurt the dog by improperly using this technique, you can cause physical and/or psychological damage to your pet. It's not worth it!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Also Dan I find it really funny when I meet people who believe in the whole eating thing - their faces are always so shocked when I say I couldn't care less about when Kes eats - she's the only one in this house with a feeding schedule - We don't have dinner every night either so she'd be a very hungry dog if we insisted on feeding her after we ate


I tried to explain all that to a colleague once, told him that the dog probably is not even noticing, but he insisted that it was different with a hound! God knows what he considers a hound and what a dog, but I can't be bothered really.



Phoolf said:


> SITTT SITTTT SITTTTTTTTT :lol:
> 
> Hilarious - my dad tries out her methods and while quite cruel I still can't help but snigger at him struggling with a little cavalier :lol:
> 
> ...


It must have been BW my brother gets his ideas from then. He yelled at Diva to sit, at the top of his voice, and I told him not to shout at my dogs. She doesn't know what sit means no matter how loud you shout it.



Wobbles said:


> Well their better than that Ceaser Millan guy who tells you to roll a dog over! Know whose methods I'd use to train my dog.


You say you follow Barbara Woodhouse, then in the same sentence that you follow Victoria Stilwell. They could not be more opposite.



Wobbles said:


> It is. She just pushes and pushes, always trying the boundaries, always seeing how far she can push me. If I give her an inch, she takes a yard. My fault I suppose for taking the biggest pup in the litter, because she had the markings I wanted. I want a Pom next time, never have another collie again.


Did I not read that you have two dogs, yet I have never heard you mention the other one. Ferdie is incredibly stubborn and much, much stronger than me. He has to be bribed into doing a lot of things, no way you are going to force him. You have to give the dog credit for his intelligence; a working dog like a collie has a mind of his own and you need to work with that.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Found this SATIRE on you tube, many of you may have seen it.

How to be Completely Dominant Over Your Dog- dog training - YouTube


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> She does really really like her ball. If I use that though, she tends to only focus on that. And I don't want to start training again, she's five years, not 5 months, should be obeying a click of my fingers or a short whistle now. She's beyond the stage of needing starting from scratch.
> I don`t think age really comes in to it, I have known people start from scratch with ten year old dogs. If you want her to obey with "a click of your fingers" then that`s the way to go.Why not give using her ball to get her to obey a try?
> 
> No, I like its me or the dog, and I like VS, and applied some of her methods. My dog is bossy though, likes her own way, so the BW works better for her. She does listen, she's just a little bugger who likes to push the boundaries almost constantly. She'd have made a good working dog, she never ever gives in to something.
> ...


Answers in red above


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

ouesi said:


> If you create a relationship with your dog that is combative and confrontational, then yes, your dog will respond in kind. It's not the dog's personality, it's more the relationship you have created.
> 
> If instead you create a relationship with your dog of cooperation, mutual trust, and mutual understanding, you find that the dogs are much more willing and eager to engage. IME at least


Agree with this completely.

My mum really is not a doggy person! She shouts when they are naughty, hand feeds from the sofa and then gives them wrapper! Then shouts or even smack them for trying to steal the wrapper off her lap! She creates the exact relationship of 'give and inch, take a mile'

Yet the relationship I have created with Rossi is nothing like that, I avoid conflict at all costs and work with the boy and never against. I just gave him some crispy fish from my dinner plate, he politely took it and went back to his place. He doesn't expect all the food on my plate and he won't act any differently from how he used to. He didn't beg while I was eating pudding. I can give him an inch and him take only an inch.

It is definitely the relationship YOU create, it's not the dog, nor the breed, not that a dog was the biggest in the litter.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> She does really really like her ball. If I use that though, she tends to only focus on that. And I don't want to start training again, she's five years, not 5 months, should be obeying a click of my fingers or a short whistle now. She's beyond the stage of needing starting from scratch.


A dog is never beyond the stage of needing to start from scratch if you haven't succeeded to teach them right in the first place. I have started from scratch several times with my dogs when I've discovered that I've made mistakes (mostly when it comes to competitive obedience I've started teaching things from scratch to make it perfect).

If your dog gets to focused on the ball you haven't taught her correctly. This is a very common excuse for not using the best rewards, but in my opinion it's not a valid excuse since it's no fault of the dog and it's quite easy to teach a dog not to be too focused on the ball (or treats or whatever reward it might be).


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

In answer to the OP, I found the article very intresting.
If I tried the Alpha Roll with Bailey he would probably bite me. And I don`t blame him. I sometimes feed him after I have ate and sometimes before. He never watches us eat anyway so I doubt he cares less. 
I don`t need to basically bully my dog to get what *I* want. I use treats, toys, praise and lots of positive reinforcement. I don`t praise behaviours I don`t want, nor do I displince them I correct them. For example once a dog trainer said "If you walk in and Fido is chewing a shoe you shout "BAD DOG FIDO!!" and smack his nose. He obviously thinks he is Alpha!" 
I said "If I walked in and Fido was chewing a shoe, I think why did I leave a shoe where he could get it anyway? I would interupt him by clapping my hands or something say in a happy voice "drop it Fido!" then take the shoe and offer him something more app to chew. If he chews on the right item "Good boy Fido!" 
Another trainer said I should force Bailey to walk behind me on walks and I should go through doorways first. Bailey (Usually!) heels to me on walks, sometimes he pulls ahead a little but as long as I don`t feel tension on the lead I really don`t care. I don`t care if he goes through doorways first either, he certainly doesn`t "dominate" me. 
I think if your dog is doing an unwanted behaviour you need to look at the cause of the behaviour and then work from there rather than just "OMG FIDO YOUR A BAD DOG!" 
For stubborn dogs as someone rightly pointed out to me on the WAYWO thread dogs don`t tend to be truly stubborn, some slightly more challenging but they either don`t understand what is asked of them, too tired, bored etc or the rewards just don`t cut it.
JMOOC


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> She does really really like her ball. If I use that though, she tends to only focus on that. And I don't want to start training again, she's five years, not 5 months, should be obeying a click of my fingers or a short whistle now. She's beyond the stage of needing starting from scratch.


Perfect!
If you are serious about training her, maybe pop along to a local class, they'll be able to help you


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Well all I can say reading this thread for once I am thankful the someone is scared of certain breeds of dogs, even if they haven't really a clue what breed they are scared of, and thankful they only want a pom for their next dog because again the ignorance is scary, in fact I would go as far to stay maybe they should just stick with hamsters! Fantastic they have a dog they haven't been able to control in 5 years but no one else is allowed!! As for trying to nip people have you read the DDA Wobble? Your dog could be consider a dangerous dog do you understand that? They don't even have to bite, someone just has to fear they could be attacked, btw attacked includes scratched, bruised not just bitten or fear of being bitten!!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Vicki said:


> A dog is never beyond the stage of needing to start from scratch if you haven't succeeded to teach them right in the first place. I have started from scratch several times with my dogs when I've discovered that I've made mistakes (mostly when it comes to competitive obedience I've started teaching things from scratch to make it perfect).
> 
> If your dog gets to focused on the ball you haven't taught her correctly. This is a very common excuse for not using the best rewards, but in my opinion it's not a valid excuse since it's no fault of the dog and it's quite easy to teach a dog not to be too focused on the ball (or treats or whatever reward it might be).


Yes and Yes 

I've re-taught my dog's competition heel 3 times now, 100% started over from scratch, and I still don't have a verbal cue for it!

Same with over-focus on the reward. That's just poor application. Very first rule of reward training is manners - no mugging for treats etc. Rewards are dependent on the correct behavior. Absolutely no reason why the dog has to be obsessed with the reward. Driven and focused yes, obsessed no. Besides ultimately the reward should be you! "Be the cookie"


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I don't know what dogs you're watching but the dogs I'm watching the roll is never forced. The submissive dog OFFERS the position. It might look forces as the correcting dog is probably making a lot of noise and display, but no, the dog on the ground offered that position, was not forced in to it.
> 
> If the roll is forced you end up with a massive dog fight, or in the case of a human forcing it, you often (not always but often) end up with a dog who goes in to panic and self-preservation mode and ends up biting in self-defense.
> 
> Pretty much every trainer who knows anything about anything - even the correction based trainers (the knowledgeable ones) will tell you alpha rolls are stupid. In fact the Monks of New Skeete who re-popularized the technique later recanted and regretted putting it in their book and have removed the technique from later editions.


ah i see the difference yes...my male dog regularly rolls himself it isnt the female pushing him down at all

and recalling the only 3 times i went to pup classes when my feja was 3 months old with her BREEDER as the trainer i add there was an aweful incident...all the breeder did to try and teach her to sit was push lightly on her rump...saying the word holding a treat in front of her...feja refused to sit...then TURNED on him in fury ! snarls lunging ! it was horrific to see a small pup react like that and everyone was in shock of all the pups there none reacted like that...breeder in fact was worried she had something physical wrong with her that caused pain to react like that ! anyway...then he FORCED her onto her BACK in this roll thing as punishment....she was still in fury even if subdued...and i was in shock...and dare i admit it being i am sure in your view a bit of a hard case emotionally not taking personal offenses i was in TEARS ! i left the class and could not face it again. not that the classses continued...i had never expected such a reaction; was ashamed it was MY pup who did it of course...and pointed fingers of course at ME for having such an already outta control pup ! and once just before that yes she had turned on me when i tried to take dogpooh she was trying to eat on the grass out of her mouth....France is full of dogpooh i add due to no laws about it...anyway this little fluffy small pup was a raving wild hyenna ! teeth barred in my face clear that if i insisted i was going to have her teeth in my face ! didnt come to that snarling and snapping in the air and small...but i NEVER put her on her back ever again after that incident in pup class...never...decided whatever the theory of submission was by dog experts stuff it...i will yell at her, grab her throat do anyting again but that...

and now i understand...and thanks...i have had challenges from her since i add...she will not accept physical piunishment...that controls me ! shows me fast her teeth ! now i add i am not in danger of being bitten...once at a dogshow an experienced dogshow man saw her behaviour in the ring with me and said you will have serious probs with that dog within six months...she was in hyper jump and bite my bottom mode...which i had to control yes...and occasionally she kicks off to it seems set my other dog off in defendign me mode ! pretends to attack me ! i must shut up but i agree therefore in conclusion with the ROLL THEORY now explained better

ps i also add using TREATS meaning FOOD is dangerous with feja...i warned and asked the trainer not to use food when trying to teach her to sit...she focuses it seems to me on one thing only...so if it is food she gets into fury if something else is being involved...i add i can get her to SIT at ONCE on command...But i did not use treats...just her BALL...and had to take care so did it without the ball mostly actually....gently carefully not forcing her...she sits to order now well but i learnt the hard way to use TREATS for learning got problems with her. some dogs seem to react well to them. feja has little interest in food if in play mode. i think that might be the reason.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

...........


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think regardless of what we read ultimately WE hold the key to our dogs behaviour.

I have fourteen books (last count) on training dogs/behaviour/body language but until I myself calmed the hell down, took things with a pinch of salt and in a more light hearted manner instead of analysing every move nothing improved.
I have books by, Pryor, Ying, Fogle, Donaldson, Fennal, Stillwell and even (hu hum) Milan, tried soo many methods til they were coming out of my ears - saw behaviourists and went to training classes but still couldn't get it right with Flynn. 

Only now that I have a private field to walk him in, no worries about any dogs at all or embarrassment of him 'going off' can I actually see what those behaviourists told me - my reactions became Flynns reactions - simple!

It's all very well reading books, taking in and understanding what they're talking about but it you personally can't put into practice what you've read/been shown then you might as well throw them all away.

Flynn has a high prey drive, as with all Mals and at first I wondered how we would 'get on' with the rabbits/pheasants/grouse we'd undoubtedly see in the field as the weather changed. Not being afraid of them (as I am dogs) I found just the 'leave' command in a normal, non agitated voice has really surprised me at how Flynn is now not at all bothered by these creatures that until eight weeks ago he had never seen in his life, due to being street walked. 
I thought 'what's the worst that could happen?' the worst would be he'd slip his long line and give chase, possibly catching and killing a bird or rabbit - no big deal really and because of that I was able to train him to 'leave' without really being too bothered. No pulling him back, no repeating the command in my usual agitated state because I'm not dealing with a dog I'm dealing with wild life which is no threat to me. I've found I can laugh at some of his antics now rather than get annoyed and stressed out. The difference in him has been remarkable. He takes so much more notice of me now, he doesn't play me up at all - he may make the occasional jump when a rabbit appears from nowhere but he has never pulled to get at it and I have not had to pull him back. 

If this can work in the field I'm sure it can work in the street BUT only if I remain as calm there as I am in the field. That's an issue of mine, not his. He has walked past eighteen dogs while training and not reacted at all - but again that was only because I was being talked through it by a trainer, had I not all hell would have probably broken loose, lol! 

So books and various training methods are all very well but only if you have the confidence to put into practice what knowledge you gained from them.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> It is. She just pushes and pushes, always trying the boundaries, always seeing how far she can push me. If I give her an inch, she takes a yard. My fault I suppose for taking the biggest pup in the litter, because she had the markings I wanted. I want a Pom next time, never have another collie again.


to contradict point about biggest in litter being a dominant difficult dog...my pup i chose because she was the smallest in litter...and sometimes i think due to being bullied or more easily pushed around by the other pups it made her...VERY difficult in that she is now i understand from seeing her siblings some in showrings the most DEFIANT of all the litter, most high drive in ball mad, and although not a dogfight seeker a big good avoider of conflicts if anyone human or dog pushes her or steps on her she turns into a savage ! teeth barred face on ! does not attack i add...but hey...she was the smallest and turned out to be the most difficult to handle yes...Even turned on her breeder ! for reasons explained elsewhere here the roll thing...and big dogs ? she has no fear of them ! dominates my double her size male easily ! she is not easy to train at all like he is. he LOVES taking my orders for some reason ! she interferes and as to HER taking orders will bark at me if she doesnt feel like it ! so that discounts the biggest in litter being more foreceful caracter ! from my experience only i add. my MALE in contrast was the BIGGEST in the litter ! by far !


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> 1. I do know what breeds I'm scared of. Not going over that again.
> 2. I can control my dog. Yes she likes to push her luck, I just push back. She knows how far she can push before she's into "you've done it now" territory.
> 3. My dog ain't dangerous and don't bite.


Your dog tries to nip people who pet it?


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> and now i understand...and thanks...i have had challenges from her since i add...she will not accept physical piunishment...that controls me ! shows me fast her teeth !


I'm a bit confused.... Are you saying she warns you with teeth when you physically punish her? What are you needing to physically punish her for? What behaviors are you trying to change in her?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> 1. I do know what breeds I'm scared of. Not going over that again.
> 2. I can control my dog. Yes she likes to push her luck, I just push back. She knows how far she can push before she's into "you've done it now" territory.
> 3. My dog ain't dangerous and don't bite.


What on earth is "you've done it now territory"???

It worried me to read that, I don't know if you are a violent person or can lose your temper quickly? But surely if you are getting to that stage you need to seriously rethink the relationship you have with your dog!?

I'm so thankful for the members on here, they have really opened my eyes to all aspects of training and behaviour and although I try to be as open minded as possible... That is just ridiculous.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Oh, absolutely! That's why we still practice blood letting for fevers and treat syphilis with arsenic and give children cocaine to calm their coughs.
> 
> Oh... wait...


You wouldn't be a teensy bit interested in the hospitals that have gone back to maggot therapy then?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> 1. I do know what breeds I'm scared of. Not going over that again.
> 2. I can control my dog. Yes she likes to push her luck, I just push back. She knows how far she can push before she's into "you've done it now" territory.
> 3. My dog ain't dangerous and don't bite.


This part of the Dangerous Dogs Act applies to every single dog in England & Wales, no matter whether it is a pure bred dog, cross or a mongrel and regardless of its size.

This is a criminal offence which can be brought against the owner of a dog (and if different the person in charge of a dog) if a dog is:
dangerously out of control
in a public place
'Dangerously out of control' is defined as being 'on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person'. Generally, if a dog bites someone then it will be presumed to have been dangerously out of control.

'Public place' is defined as including any place 'to which the public have or are permitted to have access'

Did you not write this? Look at the red text in the above and then think about what you wrote:


Wobbles said:


> My dog has a habit of grabbing people's hands when they pet her. Usually when they take their hands away, she doesn't bite, she sort of grabs at them,but I don't like her doing it. I'm not sure if its cos she's treating them like sheep, or what but I can't stop her, because she doesn't do it to me or anyone in our house. I tied her up outside a shop yesterday whilst I popped in for a loaf, and some little kid went over to her,she let him pet her then tried to grab his hand, at which point he started crying and his mother told him "that's why you don't pet strange dogs" and put him in the car. She's fine if they pet her back, its if they pet her chest, head or nose, and unfortunately, she tends to stick her nose in the air, so people inviteably people go to pet her. How can I stop her doing this? I know she means no harm, but in this day and age with dogs, I don't want her doing it full stop.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

wot does IMI and IMO mean ? i dont understan i see it a lot


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

............


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just to give more clarity:When is a dog dangerously out of control?

The definition given in the Act is that a dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person, whether or not it actually does so 6  an aggravated offence (more serious) will have been committed if the dog, whilst out of control, injures a person. (See exclusions-reference 5 below.)

An injury doesnt have to be in the form of a dog bite, it could, for example, be from a dog enthusiastically greeting someone and knocking them over, or jumping up and scratching a persons leg, injury to a person is classed as an aggravated offence.

Dog on dog attacks/fights, injury to a cat, injury to another dog are not covered under this legislation unless a person is injured or there are reasonable grounds for apprehension that the dog will injure a person


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Pixieandbow said:


> You wouldn't be a teensy bit interested in the hospitals that have gone back to maggot therapy then?


Actually I do find it fascinating! But they're clean, sterilized leeches (which yes, does sound oxymoronic LOL). And bloodletting is still used for something isn't it? But yeah, new knowledge and all that... 

Maybe a better example would have been that I buckle my kids in car seats now instead of straightarming them at sudden stops


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> wot does IMI and IMO mean ? i dont understan i see it a lot


IME = in my experience
IMO = in my opinion
IMHO = in my humble opinion


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Actually I do find it fascinating! But they're clean, sterilized leeches (which yes, does sound oxymoronic LOL). And bloodletting is still used for something isn't it? But yeah, new knowledge and all that...
> 
> Maybe a better example would have been that I buckle my kids in car seats now instead of straightarming them at sudden stops


I believe they have gone back to blood letting as well.

The maggots are good but why patients would insist on picking at the dressing so they can escape I will never fathom


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> No I'm not violent. "You've done it now territory" is where she goes if she's seriously p'd me off. The naughty corner aka the shame closet aka the corner behind the chair. If she's been bad behaved, ie caught nicking cheese off the work top, I say firmly, "you've done it now, go to your shame closet" and she skulks off there:lol:. She knows she's been really naughty if she's sent there. It's just a bit of humour and a joke in our house. Suppose you thought I meant a beating.


It's still somewhere I would never get to with my dog, if he counter surfs then we need to begin management and training again. If he gets that oppurtunity it should be in the corner for forgetting to put the cheese away.

It might not sound good to you but I actually reward Rossi for getting down off the surface, or dropping the biscuit wrapper he stole. He now promptly gives up as soon as he sees/hears me, thus, no conflict. I'm happy, he didn't get what he wanted, he's happy he isn't sitting in a corner confused about why mummy is so angry at him.

It's better to be proactive then reactive


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Please, no-one has explained how the article author 'dog expert', (The Original Doglistener,) Stan Rawlinson can make this statement below. If the dog is simply expressing its frustrations by barking because it's been lumbered with an _owner _with a behavioural problem, how would shutting it in the downstairs toilet help. (Unless it needed to go of course.)

*If the dog is misbehaving such as barking. nipping, biting or other behavioural problems, simply pick up the lead with no command or visual acknowledgement and take the dog to another room. (a downstairs toilet is ideal). Place the dog in the room and shut the door trapping the lead in the door, so the dog cannot move too far away or entertain itself*


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I'm a bit confused.... Are you saying she warns you with teeth when you physically punish her? What are you needing to physically punish her for? What behaviors are you trying to change in her?


yes she shows me her teeth if i get over angry...

if i am just shout NO at her no prob. if i rant and rave due to being annoyed about something like just now trying to get food on my table she backs off no issue starts licking me even before having maybe another go but no teeth no

very rarely; very very rarely i have raised my hand and hit on rump or with lead....one whack she accepts but no more...and in fact if i raise my hand to whack her companion Falcon she does the same...does not seem to make the distinction between me expressing anger at her or him...she shows me her teeth and growls...now i add if i put my face right up to her teeth and quietly speak to her saing I WARN YOU ! there is absolutely NO risk of her biting me...and i do not fear to do so...this happens sometimes in play or overexcitement i add not punishment needs. she tries playing with snarls at me and instead of yelling i put my face close to hers and speak softly the warning words meaning stop it...and i have no prob with that...she never touches me

what were the occasions for that ? 3 times in herding and let me stress that is why i NEED HELP and training...the dogs went AWOL a bit in that they were far away from me in full flight after the animals and i could not stop them they couldnt hear me or just would not obey...and seized the goat...and when i got to the dogs i whacked at once yes...immediate punishment yelling even...

now it was not many times...and i just didnt have control of them and my temper due to fear for the animal chased was great...so my point explanation is i rarely hit my dogs a slap on rump or grab tight fur around necks and yell NO NO NO at them...for what they did wrong shouting HERE HERE HERE meaning in French COME HERE the RECALL word...and it works mostly but when it failed on a few occasions i used violence on the dogs and FEJA showed me her teeth and FALCON ran off and hid far away and took ages to even let me get near him.

I stopped frightening or shouting particularly at Falcon who is so keen to please he is highly distressed if i get irritable with him...he loves taking orders in fact...Feja i have an understanding with so to speak that if i raise my hand now, i will NOT hit her but it is a warning...she WARNS me back with her teeth if i make any gesture close to her...it is a STAND OFF in fact...

sometimes i lose my temper...i add NEVER needed to give order to stop barking...NEVER needed with order SIT...NEVER when the dogs actually come to me when called...but if they appear about to aggress another animal as described then yes, i used violence. they were MY goats...my dogs were NOT to aggress them...and i made that clear to them no matter how much PREY DRIVE they were enjoying...and i need help i know with herding it is very difficult i cant just do it well as i tried without training. i was stuck with LEFT AND RIGHT orders ! easy when just walking in front of me i add ! but out there in the distance ? i was screaming RIGHT or LEFT not knowing if the dogs knew where that was in relation to where THEY were standing or I was standing ! if you know what i mean. i didnt hit them for that of course.

i think that answers the question...

ps i hit her when a pup when trying to take dog pooh she was eating off her...she snarled and turned on me yes

ppss and one day i was humbled, mortified even...i could hear a kid goat screaming...could not find it...i saw after a while Feja stood in the long grass looking down at something...when i got there it was the kid goat lying on its side...at first i thought the dogs had attacked it and started screaming at the dogs..then picked the kid goat up and it was untouched ! it wriggled happily in my arms conforted it had just been stressed due to lost ! and all that time...feja had just stood there..no teeth shown...just waiting calmly as if to say...i found it for you...i am waiting for you to calm down...i did not hurt it no


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> Please, no-one has explained how the article author 'dog expert', (The Original Doglistener,) Stan Rawlinson can make this statement below. If the dog is simply expressing its frustrations by barking because it's been lumbered with an _owner _with a behavioural problem, how would shutting it in the downstairs toilet help. (Unless it needed to go of course.)
> 
> *If the dog is misbehaving such as barking. nipping, biting or other behavioural problems, simply pick up the lead with no command or visual acknowledgement and take the dog to another room. (a downstairs toilet is ideal). Place the dog in the room and shut the door trapping the lead in the door, so the dog cannot move too far away or entertain itself*


Oh Stanley, Stanley, Stanley. I did not see it was this guy who was the author!

I, personally had a very bad experience with him, topped off by one of his 'family friends' becoming extremely rude to me for no real reason. Just explaining what I thought of stan in the nicest way I could.

He seems a bit arrogant in my opinion.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

samuelsmiles said:


> Please, no-one has explained how the article author 'dog expert', (The Original Doglistener,) Stan Rawlinson can make this statement below. If the dog is simply expressing its frustrations by barking because it's been lumbered with an _owner _with a behavioural problem, how would shutting it in the downstairs toilet help. (Unless it needed to go of course.)
> 
> *If the dog is misbehaving such as barking. nipping, biting or other behavioural problems, simply pick up the lead with no command or visual acknowledgement and take the dog to another room. (a downstairs toilet is ideal). Place the dog in the room and shut the door trapping the lead in the door, so the dog cannot move too far away or entertain itself*


If you don't like the advice, don't follow it.

How can he make that statement? Uh... he just makes it. IDK what you're asking? Do I agree? Eh, it depends on the situation, the dog, the handler, the reason for barking...
Not all barking is an expression of frustration. There are tons of different reasons why dogs might bark at you, nip at you etc.
I don't tend to use social isolation like that, but it's certainly an effective way to control self reinforcing behaviors.

I think it's a bit simplistic and betrays a certain inexperience to say that all behavior problems can be solved with enough exercise and mental stimulation.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> yes she shows me her teeth if i get over angry...
> 
> if i am just shout NO at her no prob. if i rant and rave due to being annoyed about something like just now trying to get food on my table she backs off no issue starts licking me even before having maybe another go but no teeth no
> 
> ...


I think you would really benefit from reading 3 books.
"The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson
"The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell
"Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier

You also may want to check out kikopup's youtube channel. She is very good at explaining why physical force so often backfires.

Basically you are really lucky you have sweet dogs...


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

ouesi said:


> If you don't like the advice, don't follow it.
> 
> How can he make that statement? Uh... he just makes it. IDK what you're asking? Do I agree? Eh, it depends on the situation, the dog, the handler, the reason for barking...
> Not all barking is an expression of frustration. There are tons of different reasons why dogs might bark at you, nip at you etc.
> ...


Lol. Hey, I'm gonna get one of Stan's 'Jinglers' and one of his 5 foot 8 inch leads for my two. Maybe they'll help me train Percy and Maggie to flush the loo next time I lock them in the downstairs toilet.:lol:


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> yes she shows me her teeth if i get over angry...
> 
> if i am just shout NO at her no prob. if i rant and rave due to being annoyed about something like just now trying to get food on my table she backs off no issue starts licking me even before having maybe another go but no teeth no
> 
> ...


I think you need to spend some time in the downstairs toilet. 20-30 years should be enough. I realise there may be different attitudes in different parts of the world and you have working dogs and livestock and I have a family pet but I don't think anyone here is going to condone your methods.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I think you would really benefit from reading 3 books.
> "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson
> "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell
> "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier
> ...


thank you i will read...the CULTURE CLASH i did not like i did read that one...i didnt like the opening statement saying DOGS DONT LOVE US ! there are a few more points i didint like but that one in particular. i think my dogs love me is why i didnt like that statement. they would not tolerate me as much as they do if they did not ! lol ! i must order books now ! :thumbup1:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

samuelsmiles said:


> Please, no-one has explained how the article author 'dog expert', (The Original Doglistener,) Stan Rawlinson can make this statement below. If the dog is simply expressing its frustrations by barking because it's been lumbered with an _owner _with a behavioural problem, how would shutting it in the downstairs toilet help. (Unless it needed to go of course.)
> 
> *If the dog is misbehaving such as barking. nipping, biting or other behavioural problems, simply pick up the lead with no command or visual acknowledgement and take the dog to another room. (a downstairs toilet is ideal). Place the dog in the room and shut the door trapping the lead in the door, so the dog cannot move too far away or entertain itself*





sezeelson said:


> Oh Stanley, Stanley, Stanley. I did not see it was this guy who was the author!
> 
> I, personally had a very bad experience with him, topped off by one of his 'family friends' becoming extremely rude to me for no real reason. Just explaining what I thought of stan in the nicest way I could.
> 
> He seems a bit arrogant in my opinion.


I too did not realise it was him. Trust me, he is no expert. He actually believes that the fact that he comes up on page one of Google "is a testament to my knowledge and ability". His website had a whole page about his google rankings, ffs!

The man is an idiot and is possibly even more arrogant and full of his own importance than Cesar Millan. He is also a member on this forum, and last time someone brought one of his silly inventions to our attention, he popped up telling us that it was not wise to argue with someone who has 1500 hits a day to their website. Just as though that was a lot.

Think I'll stick to the proper experts.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> thank you i will read...the CULTURE CLASH i did not like i did read that one...i didnt like the opening statement saying DOGS DONT LOVE US ! there are a few more points i didint like but that one in particular. i think my dogs love me is why i didnt like that statement. they would not tolerate me as much as they do if they did not ! lol ! i must order books now ! :thumbup1:


Oh yes, Jean tells it like it is and it does mess with our fragile dog owner egos. 

But she's right. We need to get our heads out of the clouds when it comes to how we perceive our dog's behaviors. The dog who grovels back to you after you yell and shout and hit is not "loving" you as a "alpha" or leader, he's appeasing you because he perceives you as unstable and likely to go off unexpectedly.

We have rescued many a dog with serious behavior issues and their behavior improvements has everything to do with learning theory and not a whole lot to do with love. Love comes later. After you build a common language, and understanding, and trust. Dogs don't just love us through some canine altruism. Like in many relationships sometimes what looks like love is anything but.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I too did not realise it was him. Trust me, he is no expert. He actually believes that the fact that he comes up on page one of Google "is a testament to my knowledge and ability". His website had a whole page about his google rankings, ffs!
> 
> The man is an idiot and is possibly even more arrogant and full of his own importance than Cesar Millan. He is also a member on this forum, and last time someone brought one of his silly inventions to our attention, he popped up telling us that it was not wise to argue with someone who has 1500 hits a day to their website. Just as though that was a lot.
> 
> Think I'll stick to the proper experts.


Didn't even read it, that bad huh? Worse than Barbara Woodhouse! Sorry my bad but training Woodhouse style is even before my dog training time and I'm practically a crispy lol


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I too did not realise it was him. *Trust me, he is no expert.* He actually believes that the fact that he comes up on page one of Google "is a testament to my knowledge and ability". His website had a whole page about his google rankings, ffs!
> 
> The man is an idiot and is possibly even more arrogant and full of his own importance than Cesar Millan. He is also a member on this forum, and last time someone brought one of his silly inventions to our attention, he popped up telling us that it was not wise to argue with someone who has 1500 hits a day to their website. Just as though that was a lot.
> 
> Think I'll stick to the proper experts.


But I've just bought one of his bloody 'Jinglers.'

Stanley...... Percy's been locked in the downstairs toilet for twenty minutes now and he still hasn't flushed the loo......HELP.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I too did not realise it was him. Trust me, he is no expert. He actually believes that the fact that he comes up on page one of Google "is a testament to my knowledge and ability". His website had a whole page about his google rankings, ffs!
> 
> The man is an idiot and is possibly even more arrogant and full of his own importance than Cesar Millan. He is also a member on this forum, and last time someone brought one of his silly inventions to our attention, he popped up telling us that it was not wise to argue with someone who has 1500 hits a day to their website. Just as though that was a lot.
> 
> Think I'll stick to the proper experts.


He really isn't.

He is one of the people I called for advice when I first brought Rossi home. I was shocked.

To cut a long story short he essentially told me to hand over a lump sum of money, he will come and fix the problem in one visit. He said he is so good that I won't ever need to call him again.

When I asked for simple explanations or advice in the mean time it was all money money money.

I'm pretty sure can't 'fix' serious HA mixed with resource guarding, counter surfing, bin scavaging, hyperactivity in one visit...

Needless to say, I was very angry and he was right, I would never call him again! Haha


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> yes she shows me her teeth if i get over angry...
> 
> if i am just shout NO at her no prob. if i rant and rave due to being annoyed about something like just now trying to get food on my table she backs off no issue starts licking me even before having maybe another go but no teeth no
> 
> ...


Wow...A lot of what you have mentioned in your post is rather worrying. Your treading on pretty thin ice by the sounds of things. Your dogs' reaction to you when you get angry should be enough for you to NEVER hit them. For a dog to have to defend itself agaisnt its owner is very sad.

I suggest you take ouesi's advice and read the books suggested.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> they would not tolerate me as much as they do if they did not ! lol ! i must order books now ! :thumbup1:


think if i did half of what you stated you did with your dogs , i'd probably be missing a few limbs
with gentle but firm training i think it's pretty safe to say , my boy loves me


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> No I'm not violent. "You've done it now territory" is where she goes if she's seriously p'd me off. The naughty corner aka the shame closet aka the corner behind the chair. If she's been bad behaved, ie caught nicking cheese off the work top, I say firmly, "you've done it now, go to your shame closet" and she skulks off there:lol:. She knows she's been really naughty if she's sent there. It's just a bit of humour and a joke in our house. Suppose you thought I meant a beating.


Where do you go when you've seriously ticked your dog off? Do you have a closet of shame too?

I'm not being all the way silly either. I'm just curious when folks have this tyrannical approach if they apply it in equal measure to themselves too, or just the dogs? 
I guess I wonder because I know I screw up all the time with my dogs, and they are infinitely patient with my addled self. I wonder if I would do a better job as a handler if the dog put me in time out every time I screwed up?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

................


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I don't tick the the dog off. I own her not the other way around. She listens to me not me to her. I go she follows. If I go left and she goes right, she comes to my direction not me to hers. She's allowed on furniture if I say so. She does not get to push past or go first to go out of gates, doors or up and down stairs, I go in front. She is not allowed to be higher up than me, I start and finish games, I always make sure I end up with the toy at the end, and I decide when food time, playtime and walk time is. I have to be strict with whose the boss, she'd rule the house otherwise. Dogs aren't mini people, they need keeping in line otherwise they become a nuisance to everyone around and the neighbours start complaining.


Wobbles, do you remember a while back when you asked how to get your dog to heel? I believe you specified, "a proper heel like they do at Crufts." And then after that you asked about obedience? How to teach your dog obedience like those dogs you saw at Crufts?

None of what you have written in the quote above is going to achieve those goals for you. In fact pretty much all of what you have written up there is counter-productive to what you seem to want to achieve.

Training, for many of us at least, is not a lecture, it's a conversation. It's creating a shared language, mutual trust, mutual respect, and forming a partnership.

As a partner, I listen to our dogs as much as they listen to me. It doesn't matter one bit who's in front, or who's first, or who started the game, or who ended it, or who's higher, or who's lower, because we're both watching out for each other. My dogs don't need "keeping in line", because they are willing participants in whatever we decide to do together.

I'm not here to tell you how you should or shouldn't train your dog - your dog, your choice. But I am going to tell you that I think you - and everyone who thinks like you - are missing out. You're missing out on an amazing relationship that you will never know until you take that risk, and try something new.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> I don't tick the the dog off. I own her not the other way around. She listens to me not me to her. I go she follows. If I go left and she goes right, she comes to my direction not me to hers. She's allowed on furniture if I say so. She does not get to push past or go first to go out of gates, doors or up and down stairs, I go in front. She is not allowed to be higher up than me, I start and finish games, I always make sure I end up with the toy at the end, and I decide when food time, playtime and walk time is. I have to be strict with whose the boss, she'd rule the house otherwise. Dogs aren't mini people, they need keeping in line otherwise they become a nuisance to everyone around and the neighbours start complaining.


"She listens to me not me to her" - how can you possibly communicate if you don't listen to her, to what makes her happy or uncomfortable?

"She is not allowed to be higher up than me, I start and finish games, I always make sure I end up with the toy at the end"

I just have one question for these: Why? I suppose if you finish games, you are not pestered when you have had enough so I suppose I can see that, though I am not quite sure why you want the toy at the end, unless you want to have a chew of it yourself. But please tell me why she is not allowed to be higher than you. Is that why people don't have giant dogs, because they will always be higher than the person, like mine are?

It seems to me that you are not enjoying your dog at all, as you are too busy following a set of really bizarre and unnecessary rules.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> *I don't tick the the dog off.* I own her not the other way around. She listens to me not me to her. I go she follows. If I go left and she goes right, she comes to my direction not me to hers. She's allowed on furniture if I say so. She does not get to push past or go first to go out of gates, doors or up and down stairs, I go in front. She is not allowed to be higher up than me, I start and finish games, I always make sure I end up with the toy at the end, and I decide when food time, playtime and walk time is. I have to be strict with whose the boss, she'd rule the house otherwise. Dogs aren't mini people, they need keeping in line otherwise they become a nuisance to everyone around and the neighbours start complaining.


How do you know? You asked her lately?
Oh right even if you did you wouldn't listen so????

Can I just say Wobbles (without you getting defensive ), maybe if you actually read things that people showed you then you might learn new things.. How do you know that what you do is the ONLY way to train your dog when you have no idea if a kinder method would work?

I have seen time and time again when someone shows you something you will just snub it off with a "Oh cba to read that", "no one will change my mind, so no point in looking at facts" and "Way too deep for me to be bothered with"
Things like that are very trollish and that will be why a few people have flown that word in your direction.

Maybe, just maybe if you actually read things from people with more experience than you could dream of then you might just pick up a few pointers..

What you have written above sounds so archaic that I feel for your dogs.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> I don't tick the the dog off. I own her not the other way around. She listens to me not me to her. I go she follows. If I go left and she goes right, she comes to my direction not me to hers. She's allowed on furniture if I say so. She does not get to push past or go first to go out of gates, doors or up and down stairs, I go in front. She is not allowed to be higher up than me, I start and finish games, I always make sure I end up with the toy at the end, and I decide when food time, playtime and walk time is. I have to be strict with whose the boss, she'd rule the house otherwise. Dogs aren't mini people, they need keeping in line otherwise they become a nuisance to everyone around and the neighbours start complaining.


When I first brought Rossi home, I had no knowledge and not a single ounce of experience with difficult dogs. Never come across a difficult dog. I thought similarly to you, oh he must think he is boss which is why he is so pushy and does what he wants (trust me you don't know the meaning of pushy until you live with a dog like Rossi) and so I implemented similar rules to you have written.

Nothing. I was still sh*t scared of him, he would still tear me to shreds if I tried to get him off the sofa or remove my dinner from his mouth 

It wasn't until I looked into resource guarding in great detail I realised just how wrong I was and that I needed to seriously rethink my so called 'training'.

IME it is better for to dogs to either be allowed on the sofa or not. When I gave Rossi an only when invited policy he became very confused as to when he was and wasn't allowed up. You wouldn't know if your dog was confused by this, you don't listen to her.

My dog isn't allowed to push past me, I have arthritis and he could easily knock me over causing unbelievable amounts of pain. Not sure how you teach this but I put him in a sit and treat him while I go through a tight space, he is more then happy to oblige! Sitting is easy 

I send Rossi up the stairs first as I usually hold his collar so he supports and helps me up them! Very useful and I didn't even teach him this one! I don't need to make sure Rossi goes through a door first, he usually eager to see what going on so is paying attention to me regardless, especially through the front door, are we going left or right?

I'm not strict at all, it is how it is and it works yet my dog does not rule anyone... Is isn't the boss lol he can't be we are not the same species  he is my best friend not just some animal I happened to bring into my home. Why on earth would you choose to put such a strain on the relationship?

If a dog is pushy it's because you have created an imbalance in the relationship.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

WOODHOUSE dog training...

may i add here why for all the good things that lady must have i think done to make people even THINK for the first time in the public out ther about DOG TRAINING as a skill needed by all dog owners...And i do credit her with that...

she even then gave me i dare admit here a BAD VIEW OF BRITS generally !

why ? she herself i judged to be an ECCENTRIC in her way of behaving...talking...so ? i thought whoops be careful these brits have a reputation for liking eccentrics...now this one is on national tv ! nutter !

and her advice then yes TRENDY for dog training set standards...myself not having ever been part of a dogclub thought additionally generalising...STREWTH ! those doogyworld pros are nuts ! good job i dont belong to that lot ! just have dogs !

and i admit her now seen as old fashioned views on training by punishment did make sense to me and many ! so we did take on board some of her views yes! but then i was an adolescent...not really into smacking dogs i loved...not all the time and not being interested in having perfectly trained dogs didnt really take too much notice of her advice...

i end my views on woodhouse. but that is why i get wary of any sudden THIS IS THE NEW PHILOSOPHY when put forward...becaues the example of ROLL OVER was not woodhouse but yes for a long time accepted good practice ! and now it is discounted and i agree with the new theory...but i am always wary of new ideas first yes and woodhouse taught me to be so !


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> I say firmly, "you've done it now, go to your shame closet" and she skulks off there


I'm very glad that I have nicely behaved dogs who do what I ask, are a pleasure to live with and who don't feel the need to skulk away from me.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

..............


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Well your reading the wrong books. None of my books include any of that mumbo jumbo.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles, you are reading the wrong books. I would have thought you had been on this forum long enough to know that pack rules are outdated, discredited and a load of crap. There are no rules, just common sense. The idea that the pack leader always sits higher, is complete BS, as is everything else to do with the misguided idea that dogs live in packs with a leader. They don't.

Does he look like he wants to be in charge?


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Yes I did want her to walk like that, but she walks better on lead now so I'm not bothered about it anymore.


Out of that whole post I wrote, this is all you got out of it?
Do you realize how often you say "I can't be bothered" or similar?

Sigh... Gotta love it when you take the time to type out something thoughtful only to have the person it's directed at do the internet equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting "lalalalala I can't hear you!!"

Edit, this is one of my dogs, I made this video of him for his 4 year gotcha day. Yup he was a rescue, his previous owners couldn't manage his behavior any more. He was impulsive, was killing their chickens, was chasing their horses, was running off, was completely ignoring them no matter what they did in their old school ways. He was going to get himself shot... 
They originally found him as a pup, abandoned in the woods. He was skin and bones, puppy teeth dark brown with malnutrition, they didn't know if he was going to make it. They nursed him back to health only to end up with an unmanageable dog. We took him on. We never did ANY of the alpha dog nonsense. We simply taught him our language and listened to his. His training has been 100% force free. He's not perfect, and he still has a way of adding his own flair to things, but I think you can see that sense of cooperation, that partnership that would not be there had any of us insisted on showing him his place.

[youtube_browser]UTaqZV9koBM[/youtube_browser]


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Paula07 said:


> Well your reading the wrong books. None of my books include any of that mumbo jumbo.


refering to wobbles saying she had read books saying end the games owner not the dog and um um not letting dogs on coaches ....

well i have to agree with wobbles and add not only did wobbles read books saying that but qualified dog trainers i have heard give that advice !

whether it is reading the wrong books is a matter of opinion and we read what is available at the time until some new books come out contradicting totally what other dog education books and advice was !

and that is fact ! the link to the dismissal of the alpha concept is exactly an example of that...admited even by the author who apparently first wrote the alpha dog theory

so i see no point in agreeing fast to any new ideas that contradict all previous theories given by dog experts ! since they have changed so dramatically over time and even been contradicted over time by the same authors of the original now discounted theories !

all that WOLF AND DOG observing and we STILL have possibilities that we or the experts GET IT WRONG i say !

because we are best guessing...

i see people like myself wobbles others accepting some old theories discounted after discussion and experiences infering we are getting it wrong...but hey ! i was just thinking today how much dogs suffered in the past from the wrong theories and i thought thank GOODNESS i didnt religiously apply them not being in dog clubs doing the woodhouse stuff that was behond my abilities i taught my dogs then to roll over beg woof to order etc differntly to woodhouse just amateur playing with them i add...

ps i have dogs i enjoy want to enjoy and yes i dislike anyting that seems SERIOUS i prefer by nature play and i found my dogs did...and i didnt then as adolescent read books just saw woodhouse on tv about dog stuff...now i read books...and will...but i still like play and i sometimes have notions about dogs and trial and error until i get some expert to help me yes but i will be wary if they smack my dogs i am the only person that should do that in my humble yes opinion and defensive of my dogs


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.................


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Well, I'm not bothered anymore about it. I was when she pulled, she doesn't know, so I'm not fussed.
> 
> The rest of your post I didn't reply to as it would only have been a repeat of what I put in answer to Newfiesmum.


I edited and added a video, you might want to watch it, or not...


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> refering to wobbles saying she had read books saying end the games owner not the dog and um um not letting dogs on coaches ....
> 
> well i have to agree with wobbles and add not only did wobbles read books saying that but qualified dog trainers i have heard give that advice !
> 
> ...


And what qualifications did these 'qualified dog trainers' have? 
I could set up my own dog training buisness tomorrow and call myself a qualified dog trainer, it doesn't mean i am one though.

At the end of the day, the dominance theory is seriously outsdated. I have done the whole eat before them, go through the door first bla bla bla. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference. The majority of owners use positive reinforcement with great success. I can't understand anyone who would still follow such stupid theory to be honest but i guess that's just my opinion.

Your totally right, the experts get it wrong and guess what, THEY GOT IT WRONG.

Well when your dogs bite you for smacking them it will be entirely your own fault, in my humble opinion.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

The thing that confuses me most about the dominance in dogs theory is that the dominance seems to be very different from the animals proven to work as a pack with dominance for example chimps. 

As far as I am aware alpha chimp doesn't necessarily eat first but he gets his pickings, and has the right to take from others. Lower ranked chimps won't necessarily give it up though.. The alpha doesn't take the highest point either, if alpha is on the ground then others members if the pack are still up in the trees etc.?

Meerkats are pack animals too and I'm sure do as explained as above. 

Dominance in dogs seems to be completely different to the dominance theories and pack instincts of animals proven. 
That could all be total rubbish though, just of I have observed in all the docs I've watched. 

Also;

Dogs try to be boss or dominate us, why do they not all do this with each other? Raven is 100% the 'lowest ranking' why has Rossi allowed her on the sofa but by your theory I'm not allowed to let him on the sofa?

How come raven is given her food and released to eat before Rossi? Surely he should take her food away from her? Seeing as he is 'pack leader'? Why do you out these theories on dogs when they don't even put them on each other? Unclaimed food is claimed by whom ever gets there first not by highest ranking?

That's why I think dominance in dogs is total BS. Surely we can realise that there is a huge communication barrier between humans and dogs making the potential for problems quite high? Rather then instantly thinking the dog thinks he is top dog?


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> yes she shows me her teeth if i get over angry...
> 
> if i am just shout NO at her no prob. if i rant and rave due to being annoyed about something like just now trying to get food on my table she backs off no issue starts licking me even before having maybe another go but no teeth no
> 
> ...


*very rarely; very very rarely i have raised my hand and hit on rump or with lead....one whack she accepts but no more...and in fact if i raise my hand to whack her companion Falcon she does the same...does not seem to make the distinction between me expressing anger at her or him...she shows me her teeth and growls...now i add if i put my face right up to her teeth and quietly speak to her saing I WARN YOU ! there is absolutely NO risk of her biting me*

are you for real???????/
what your doing to your poor dogs is crazy, there is no need what so ever to hit your dog.....whether its with a hand or even worse a lead
how would you feel if someone came up to you and beat you and when you told them to p*ss off they decided it would be a good idea to get real close to you and annoy and intimidate you even more?? you are VERY LUCKY you have not been attacked by your dogs.......and it would be your own doing if they did attack you or even worse someone else]
you clearly have no patience to train your dogs, it doesnt happen overnight, its takes time....hitting is a quick fix with long lasting psychological effects, 
could you imagine if you had a child and put them to school, the teacher spoke in a foreign language about what she expected the child to learn, then the child is given an exam......and for every answer it gets wrong it gets beat with a lead...........pretty barbaric aint it.....its pretty much what you are doing
dogs cant be exspected to learn what certain commands are without them actually being taught first!!! 
IMO you probable shouldnt even have dogs if this is the way you treat them. 
im sure you have not went through life getting every single thing correct, your setting your dog up to fail with the meathod of "training " you are doing.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

IMO this is one of the more informative articles out there on dominance:

The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

I would say that the biggest take home message for pet owners is that 
a) Dominance is not a personality trait. It's a descriptor of behaviors. A dog is not "dominant" he displays dominant behaviors in certain contexts that will ebb and flow depending on a myriad of factors.

b) Making yourself alpha by force and/or confrontation does not guarantee stability, in fact it often has the exact opposite effect. You basically just create a combative relationship where insignificant interactions become confrontations to be won. If being "alpha" worked, if putting a dog in their place works, why do so many dogs have to be continually "reminded" of their place?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I don't tick the the dog off. I own her not the other way around. She listens to me not me to her. I go she follows. If I go left and she goes right, she comes to my direction not me to hers. She's allowed on furniture if I say so. She does not get to push past or go first to go out of gates, doors or up and down stairs, I go in front. She is not allowed to be higher up than me, I start and finish games, I always make sure I end up with the toy at the end, and I decide when food time, playtime and walk time is. I have to be strict with whose the boss, she'd rule the house otherwise. Dogs aren't mini people, they need keeping in line otherwise they become a nuisance to everyone around and the neighbours start complaining.


Yet you tie your dog outside a shop, leaving it unattended when you KNOW you have a dog that mouths!!! Very wise of course a tied up unattended mouthing dog is not a nuisance *smh*


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

...............


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Operant conditioning/clicker training has been around for donkey's years, before BW was on tv. It's a method of training animals and works on all of them regardless of species or how they live in the wild/feral. I think that if people were using clicker training (with or without an actual clicker as a marker) with their dogs it wouldn't actually have mattered what conclusions a study brought up about wolves, whether it was disproved or not.

If we all used clicker training to teach our dogs to stay off the sofa or follow us through doors it wouldn't really matter why we thought we were doing it imo and we could easily teach our dogs to roll on their backs all by themselves. 

There is some thought that training dogs or horses with the principles of operant conditioning and clicker training, but without using an actual clicker can be easier to learn (for us) and make it less likely for us to make mistakes, accuracy is key with a clicker, but even if you be would someone who agrees, it still wouldn't negate the years people have spent clicker training.

Unlike pack theories. Finding out the guy was wrong has completely undermined any pack theory based training people have attempted and quite often failed with causing all kinds of problems.

If you get clicker training wrong, it's unlikely to make your dog worse than he is, you'll probably just fail to teach him what you want him to know. Start alpha rolling him and punishing him and you could end up with a retaliatory dog who is afraid of you, even if it seems to work.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> I don't know, an tbh I don't really care, as its too deep for me to delve into. I have no desires to do any kind of psychology, never have. Like 99% of most owners, I just want a dog who is well behaved, read the books, applied the knowledge, got the results. They all explain about packs and pack leaders, and the books aren't that old, its me or the dog certainly isn't. And that explains how to be a leader.


Doesn't have to be deep or get into any sort of psychology.

I completely changed my way of thinking and acting from reading 1 publication about avoiding conflict and working with your dog to achieve results.

Depends if you care about your dogs well being enough not about how much you read.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Debbierobb109 said:


> *very rarely; very very rarely i have raised my hand and hit on rump or with lead....one whack she accepts but no more...and in fact if i raise my hand to whack her companion Falcon she does the same...does not seem to make the distinction between me expressing anger at her or him...she shows me her teeth and growls...now i add if i put my face right up to her teeth and quietly speak to her saing I WARN YOU ! there is absolutely NO risk of her biting me*
> 
> are you for real???????/
> what your doing to your poor dogs is crazy, there is no need what so ever to hit your dog.....whether its with a hand or even worse a lead
> ...


I will answer 2 replies made in this 1 post...

1. the person who agreed with my statement that the dog experts got it wrong changed their minds...

but just before agreeing said anyone could call themselves a dog trainer...i can confirm qualified by official dog training course people not just peole deciding as suggested by the poster to call themselves dog trainers have made assumptions that are now discounted in lessons given views given and the next part of the reply of that poster agreed they got it wrong !

so my point is exactly that, one cannot blame individuals for following what official dog experts have written and some still follow. the fact there are new theories to consider to make us change our minds individually is good. There will always be disagreement even in the dog expert world however.

2. sigh. replying to the quoted poster comment ending on i probably shouldnt own dogs...sigh...well the non dog lovers public out there probably think most dog owners should not own dogs ...

but to answer a useful information to some not familiar with SHEEPDOG TRAINERS...i went on the TOP FRANCE UNNAMED by me here but well known trainer 3 day course here as well as the day my bitch passed before that her HERDING INSTINCT TEST...and GUESS WHAT ???

the SHEPHERDS HELD LONG WHIPS yes in their hands...RARELY used no but YES THEY LASHED at the dogs taking the HERDING TEST as well as later on the HERDING SKILLS NEXT STEP TRAINING to SAVE THE SHEEP !

and would i argue against that ? NO !

MANY SHEEP GET INJURED even KILLED sometimes in the HERDING INSTINCT TEST itself ! dogs TOTALLY unused untrained AS is intended to TEST their POSSIBLE instincts get OVEREXCITED and SEIZE the sheep !

now i add as an aside I am personally AGAINST therefore on grounds of unnecessary stress to the SHEEP such INSTINCT TESTS being done by dogs not intended for REAL herding work but jsut to pass a test to qualify as showdogs ! FCI country rules i add...

HOWEVER ! YES ! if untrained dogs in particular are going to ATTACK SHEEP in their INSTINCT TEST or even later TRAINING SHEPHERDS USE THE WHIP !

usually i add a CRACK OVERHEAD of the dogs but it is such a FAST MOVING EVENT that sometimes ON THE DOG yes is needed and i have seen STICKS used by the OWNERS of the dogs training used also !

I add...TO BOAST TO MY CREDIT and to my dog...a CRACK OF THE WHIP ABOVE HER HEAD was all that was needed on the 3 day course we did ! maybe i missed it hitting her i add..it is a VERY FAST MOVING EVENT !

and yes i went and LASHED OUT at my dogs when i caught up with them if i saw they had seized my goats of a FEW occasions certainly not all no...10 percent at most i would say...3 times in MONTHS of being with the herd i did that ...

so i think that helps explain and maybe shepherds in GB do it differently but i dont think so i will one day i hope find out ALED OWEN in WALES is my hope AFTER i get BETTER OBEDIENCE TRAINING YES ! i want that and i am pleased to read all i can TO GET IT RIGHT seeing how as EXPERTS cant agree and have GOT IT WRONG !

ps I like dogs...i like ANIMALS ! i get outraged sometimes yes that RABBITS and SHEEP are considered TOYS for dogs on those grounds ! ESSENTIAL work herding or chasing or hunting ok i say ! NON ESSENTIAL NO ! and i dont SMACK GOATS ! ok yes i did once the ALPHA goat for taking the herd off one day...I WAS WRONG YES ! my dogs must have been not impressed seeing that i add ! not exactly a good example to them hey ! yes it maybe gave them ideas ! and no i didnt do it again ! the goat was not happy about it ! yes there is a LEADER goat in a herd...FEMALE i add if interested...not the huge horned MALE goat it is always her who took the herd off so i chained her after that if i went to town and didnt want them wandering off.

The animals stayed close to the dogs if there was a danger or the dogs barked. the animals stayed close to me came up easily at nights to be close to me and the dogs. they were not afraid of me or the dogs ...of course the dogs controlled them fairly easily but i noticed NOT WITH MUCH AGGRESSION because even a GOAT will DEFEND ITSELF and my goats had DANGEROUS HORNS ! i was told to cut them...i didint...there were no injuries...the dogs and goats came to understandings...with time...AGGRESSION unacceptable to the goats was retailiated to with aggression yes. so the dogs learnt. and me.

if anyone interested, evidence of NON AGGRESSION of my dog brief video bringing in the goat herd...

and i am not shouting...i am calm...as i as general am around my animals who could injure me dog goat cow whatever...






here is my alpha goat on TOP yes controlling the play...it is just for fun...but she was a very LEADER goat...






bringing in cow to milk...one dog goes out there and when in perceived dificulty by ther other dog she joins in...no aggression...and order to STOP understood..but i need more control yes...






u r prbably bored not interested and i dont blame you but i am lauging rewatching a video showing RESOURCE GUARDING i learnt here a new term is COMMON TO GOATS not just dogs !!!

here i stupidly INTERFERE with MALE GOAT WITH HUGE HORNS Eating who swipes his horns at my interfering hands !!! lol !!! laugh yes !


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> They all explain about packs and pack leaders, and the books aren't that old, its me or the dog certainly isn't. And that explains how to be a leader.


Victoria Stillwell, author of 'It's Me or the Dog', has openly admitted her earlier use of dominance theory was wrong.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Paula07 said:


> Well your reading the wrong books. None of my books include any of that mumbo jumbo.


It's not necessarily mumbo-jumbo but I think it's been misinterpreted. The point of finishing the game yourself is to prevent the dog becoming bored with it. It's not to do with showing the dog you win every time... which would make him bored with it.

The point of going through the door first is so you can control what's on the other side. I go out the front door first and in last. Indoors I couldn't care less who goes through first.. but then in my house all the doors are open anyway.. even the toilet


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Victoria Stillwell, author of 'It's Me or the Dog', has openly admitted her earlier use of dominance theory was wrong.


Lots of the books I have.. the author openly admits that they went on their "journey" because of what they had either done or allowed to be done to their dog and that there had to be a better way.. and I think they are right. I'm still not interested in buying a "jingler" though.


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> I will answer 2 replies made in this 1 post...
> 
> 1. the person who agreed with my statement that the dog experts got it wrong changed their minds...
> 
> ...


so what your saying now is that not only is ok to hit with your hand and a lead it is ok to now whip the dog......a dog that is learning? a dog on a 3 Day course of something its never done before ...................
your methods are going to cause more harm than good.
your dogs bare their teeth at you......do you think thats normal behaviour for a dog towards their owner?? because its not. your dogsa re doing this because they are scared of you...thats not something id be proud of, in fact id be VERY ashamed.
i have ever had to lift a hand to my dogs, and i would never want to. they are my pets and i love them and most of all i let them be dogs. 
if you expect your dogs towork for you hearding then you need to build up a much better bond with them.....would you work for someone that beat you...i know id not.
you say you lashed out at your dog after you caught up with them after something to do with a goat.........do you think the dog realised that you were beating it because of the goat??
no....she would have seen you coming at her all mad and she would have had no idea what for......you are humanising the dog to think it knows these things, dogs live in the momenet they dont have the train of thought to realise that you are hitting them because of something they done 5 mins ago, they just see you coming and they see by your body language that your crazy and mad.
you cant expect a dog to go on a 3 day course and all of a sudden be a star herder 
and personally if i was attending one of these courses and some random "trainer" whipped my dog id probably rip him apart!!!! to go and watch someone else hit and abuse your dog and be ok with says a lot about what you actually think about your dogs
its seems to me you have very little respect for them.
to learn a dog how to heard sheep or any other live stock takes more than 3 days


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

...............


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> I don't know, an tbh I don't really care, as its too deep for me to delve into. I have no desires to do any kind of psychology, never have. Like 99% of most owners, I just want a dog who is well behaved, read the books, applied the* knowledge*, got the results. They all explain about packs and pack leaders, and the books aren't that old, its me or the dog certainly isn't. And that explains how to be a leader.


IMO you are the very antithesis of knowledge.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Yes this. My dog'd soon get fed up if she won every game. Me winning keeps her on her toes. I've got two reasons I make her wait to go through doors and down stairs. First, it calms her down before a walk, so she starts off from the house walking nicely, as opposed to taking off like a missile once out the gate. Second, and more importantly, my Mum's had a knee operation a few months ago
> , is recovering and unsteady still, and another before that, if Meg rushed past through a door she'd knock her over, if she did it on the top of the stairs it would be downright dangerous. So I taught her to wait until people have passed first, safer for everyone.


Niether of those have anything to do with being 'boss' so why did you keep saying you need to Win all the time etc so she knows your in charge..??


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> They all explain about packs and pack leaders, and the books aren't that old, *its me or the dog* certainly isn't. And that explains how to be a leader.


you might want to read that again as it shows what codswallop pack and pack leader mentality is.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

diefenbaker said:


> It's not necessarily mumbo-jumbo but I think it's been misinterpreted. The point of finishing the game yourself is to prevent the dog becoming bored with it. It's not to do with showing the dog you win every time... which would make him bored with it.
> 
> The point of going through the door first is so you can control what's on the other side. I go out the front door first and in last. Indoors I couldn't care less who goes through first.. but then in my house all the doors are open anyway.. *even the toilet*


Need the air flowing through?

Lay off the vindaloo Dief!!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

..............


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Well it lets her know I have the ability to stop her and take away things. A dog needs to respect its owner, just like kids should respect their parents. So she behaves or does what's asked, she gets a reward (toy/play/treat), if she doesn't or misbehaves, she gets nothing or those rewards taken away. Same as a kid who gets pocket money gets it stopped if they don't behave, they want the money so know to behave for it, and that the parent has the power to stop it as well. You have to earn things, you don't get given a house key until you've proved your responsible enough to carry one.


Didn't a previous post say, 'Dog's aren't mini humans'


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> i went on the TOP FRANCE UNNAMED by me here but well known trainer 3 day course here as well as the day my bitch passed before that her HERDING INSTINCT TEST...and GUESS WHAT ???
> 
> the SHEPHERDS HELD LONG WHIPS yes in their hands...RARELY used no but YES THEY LASHED at the dogs taking the HERDING TEST as well as later on the HERDING SKILLS NEXT STEP TRAINING to SAVE THE SHEEP !


Goodness! So they take a dog who has never seen sheep, let it loose then whip it if it chases them, to save the sheep? 

I would have expected them to introduce the dog with the sheep safely tucked in a pen and teach the dog from outside the pen first at least.

I know nothing about training dogs for sheep herding tbh, but I really couldn't see someone like Spellweaver (shows border collies) allowing a shepherd to whip her dogs in order to pass some test and I certainly wouldn't.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

...............


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> refering to wobbles saying she had read books saying end the games owner not the dog and um um not letting dogs on coaches ....
> 
> well i have to agree with wobbles and add not only did wobbles read books saying that but qualified dog trainers i have heard give that advice !
> 
> ...





Paula07 said:


> And what qualifications did these 'qualified dog trainers' have?
> I could set up my own dog training buisness tomorrow and call myself a qualified dog trainer, it doesn't mean i am one though.
> 
> At the end of the day, the dominance theory is seriously outsdated. I have done the whole eat before them, go through the door first bla bla bla. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference. The majority of owners use positive reinforcement with great success. I can't understand anyone who would still follow such stupid theory to be honest but i guess that's just my opinion.
> ...


You have said exactly what I was going to so I won't bother now, except to say that I have several certificates from dog training courses, all of which insisted that pack leader crap is just that - crap. I suppose that must make me a qualified dog trainer, don't really know what qualified is when it comes to dog training.

Feja, I appreciate that your English is not the best and I may have got it wrong, but I shudder at your descriptions of your interaction with your dogs. I do not know what breed they are, but if you hit, scream and shout at any dog it is quite likely to bare its teeth and even attack out of fear. My dad had a nasty habit of hitting the dog with his lead. The result was that whenever anyone picked up the lead, the dog ran away and hid. If that is the result you want from your training you are going the right way about it.



Wobbles said:


> I don't know, an tbh I don't really care, as its too deep for me to delve into. I have no desires to do any kind of psychology, never have. Like 99% of most owners, I just want a dog who is well behaved, read the books, applied the knowledge, got the results. They all explain about packs and pack leaders, and the books aren't that old, its me or the dog certainly isn't. And that explains how to be a leader.


Victoria Stilwell's old, English programmes were based on the now discredited pack leader theory. If you watch the US series which are on at some ungodly hour in the morning, she makes fun of that theory herself. They are completely different.

From my own point of view, you do not need any sort of theory or system in order to train your dog. You need love, patience, and lots of understanding. Always worked for me.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Well it lets her know I have the ability to stop her and take away things. A dog needs to respect its owner, just like kids should respect their parents. So she behaves or does what's asked, she gets a reward (toy/play/treat), if she doesn't or misbehaves, she gets nothing or those rewards taken away. Same as a kid who gets pocket money gets it stopped if they don't behave, they want the money so know to behave for it, and that the parent has the power to stop it as well. You have to earn things, you don't get given a house key until you've proved your responsible enough to carry one.


A dog wants good things to start or continue and bad things to end. Respect does not come into it. If a dog behaves in a certain way because they don't want a bad thing to start this is not respect.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Their not, but both kids and dogs have to learn to respect and obey those in charge, *otherwise they'd just run riot*.


No, they really don't.

If all you're teaching your child to do is obey, they will be forever dependent on an authority and never learn to think and do for themselves. I sure hope for my own children that they do NOT grow up to be obedient!
"Obedience is doing what you're told regardless of what is right. Mindfulness is doing what is right regardless of what you're told."

I don't want obedience from my dogs either. I want cooperation. I want them to think for themselves too. It seems a subtle difference but it's really pretty significant in the dog you end up with. I trust my dogs to behave appropriately even when I'm not there to tell them what to do.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

............


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Elles said:


> Goodness! So they take a dog who has never seen sheep, let it loose then whip it if it chases them, to save the sheep?
> 
> I would have expected them to introduce the dog with the sheep safely tucked in a pen and teach the dog from outside the pen first at least.
> 
> I know nothing about training dogs for sheep herding tbh, but I really couldn't see someone like Spellweaver (shows border collies) allowing a shepherd to whip her dogs in order to pass some test and I certainly wouldn't.


yes that is how the sheepherding instinct test is done.

yes the dog is presented with the sheep in enclosure from the outside first, but then it is OFF LEAD obviously to test its instinct.

this is NOT a TEACHING test ! this is INSTINCT test so NO ORDERS are to be used no by owner in theory !

that is why i am against the test for dogs that dont need it in reality who arent going to do herding work...but dogs do it to get a qualification for showdogs i add....in countries where that is needed...

Back to the using of WHIP and STICK to stop SHEEP GETTING HURT yes that is STANDARD PRACTICE in such events.

So...QED EXPERT SHEPHERDS TRAINERS USE THEM HAVE THEM in their hands ready to use as deemed necessary to SAVE THE SHEEP

my view ???? as a STUPID person of course as you may call me...is MY view wanted again on this ??? well if EXPERT DOG TRAINERS OF THE HIGHEST QUALIFICATIONS IN GREAT NUMBERS EVEN THE MAJORITY in a HUGE country like France and i believe elsewhere do this...then WHO AM I TO give MY view ???

lol !! especially as it is not worth having being a NON EXPERT in some peoples views !!! lol !!! 

and i add i see NO FACT given in this response here of an actual GB SHEPHERD known method !!! the example given was that of a showdog owner ??? not a SHEPHERD TRAINER ??? so where is the knowledge of other than what i have stated to be STANDARD SHEPHERD TRAINERS AND TESTERS views on this ?? not here...ok...i am in the wrong place...only shepherds might be able to answer this...and i gave the practice yes of EXPERT SHEPHERDS that i know is fact and have seen in practice yes as stated.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Well it lets her know I have the ability to stop her and take away things. A dog needs to respect its owner, just like kids should respect their parents. So she behaves or does what's asked, she gets a reward (toy/play/treat), if she doesn't or misbehaves, she gets nothing or those rewards taken away. Same as a kid who gets pocket money gets it stopped if they don't behave, they want the money so know to behave for it, and that the parent has the power to stop it as well. You have to earn things, you don't get given a house key until you've proved your re sponsible enough to carry one.


Well, actually you said you punish your dog when it misbehaves and you reach 'you've done it now territory'. That is not withholding rewards or taking things away, that's punishment.

Working in a partnership with my dog, it's rare Rossi ever misbehaves. He knows exactly what's expected of him and rarely needs reminding.

Dogs aren't stupid... They know you can take things away and stop things. This happens everyday without you even realising it, can they open front doors? Open their food packets? Pick up their bowls to wash them? Put themsleves in the bath?

When I got to bed, they do too. When I put their food down, they eat. There is absolutely no hidden psychology behind this... It's how dogs have evolved, to work alongside us, not obey and be ruled by us. It was dogs that chose us, we didn't forcefully domesticate them. How on earth would we control them back when there instincts and power where ten times what they are today?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

If you like VS check out her website... you can get an idea of her views on dominance theory etc. For example,:
Victoria Stilwell Positively | The Science Behind The Philosophy


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Their not, but both kids and dogs have to learn to respect and obey those in charge, otherwise they'd just run riot.


Respect is a human concept- we interpret it in the behaviours we see in others and perhaps in anthropomorphising our animals.

It is therefore subjective too.

To which ends, how you define and measure respect in your dog is reflected in the behaviours it will display.

An example:

Someone comes to my door and i roar at my dog to sit: the dog sits, ears back unsure, eyes avoiding

Someone comes to my door, I ask my dog to sit and wait- the dog sits, bright, tail wagging , mouth open awaiting the release to greet the stranger or for me to return

In both situations the dog is sitting, waiting whilst i greet my guest. To many both situations could portray respect.

Subjective no?

I know which one i'd prefer to see.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> yes that is how the sheepherding instinct test is done.
> 
> yes the dog is presented with the sheep in enclosure from the outside first, but then it is OFF LEAD obviously to test its instinct.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure a stick or whip will be implemented to late if a dog has real intent. If not, surely it would shock the sh*t out of the dog? I know my dog freeze at the prospect of getting hit, as long as the sheep isn't already in his gob of course!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> the example given was that of a showdog owner ???


Yes, because I believe you said that in France show dogs have to pass this test. I believe Spellweaver shows her border collies to a high level and I also believe that she wouldn't if it meant letting them loose with sheep and risking them being whipped.

Didn't you say the place where they used the whips was a 3 day training course? A training course, to train the dogs? My dog would end up a nervous wreck if someone hit her with a whip. Absolutely no way would I even consider any kind of interaction or training that involved her having whips cracked at her in this way, or even seeing other dogs being hit with whips.

I did a quick google and found a number of sites belonging to folk who train sheepdogs for trials as well as for fun, with sheep, geese, goats and other animals and many of them say they use positive reinforcement/reward based training and start with basic obedience before the dogs get anywhere near the sheep. When they do introduce the sheep, they assess the particular sheep as well as the dog.

From what little I've seen, mainly on tv, the handlers might carry a crook and use it to block or guide the sheep or dog in normal situations, I haven't seen or heard of any use of whips as punishment until now, maybe I'm just naive to be quite shocked.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> She's no need to fear anything. I say lie down, if she does she get a treat, if she doesn't she gets nothing. Next time she probably will lie down as she wants the treat. Simples.


If it's that simple why do you keep on repeating it's about respect. If it's about respect no treats would be necessary. I simply don't believe a dog has the capacity to do something out of respect.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> If it's that simple why do you keep on repeating it's about respect. If it's about respect no treats would be necessary. I simply don't believe a dog has the capacity to do something out of respect.


Ferdie does. He respects the fact that he is stronger than me and if he doesn't want to move, I have to respect the fact that he is not going to


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

...............


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> and that is fact ! the link to the dismissal of the alpha concept is exactly an example of that...admited even by the author who apparently first wrote the alpha dog theory
> 
> so i see no point in agreeing fast to any new ideas that contradict all previous theories given by dog experts ! since they have changed so dramatically over time and even been contradicted over time by the same authors of the original now discounted theories !


.............. Because the man who first claimed wolves are pack animals with a leader, later changed his mind and said that he was wrong, you take that as reason to continue believing what he says is mistaken 

These 'new' ideas, are not exactly new. They have been being used for a very long time.

I am confused. The dominance/pack leader theory has been discredited repeatedly. It is not opinion. Even if you believe that dogs act exactly as wolves do, and that they see us as dogs, the fact is wolves live in a family unit, not a pack with a leader established by force.

A few older trainers still use it, I suspect because they are in denial, as admitting it was wrong, would mean admitting they have been talking nonsense, some of which is potentially dangerous, for many many years.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

sezeelson said:


> Pretty sure a stick or whip will be implemented to late if a dog has real intent. If not, surely it would shock the sh*t out of the dog? I know my dog freeze at the prospect of getting hit, as long as the sheep isn't already in his gob of course!


i can see now that this is news to people reading here not into these tests...so i understand the shocked reactions better...

i dont know what to say ...err me the waffler ? lol !!! no really...i am trying to think of what to say more about this to reply...

shouting is the preferred first option for sure YELLING is needed in fact...dogs at distance in high excitement...so yes YELLING is used...

but the whip too and FAST as i said the whole thing is FAST ! sheep bolting...dog running...one has to have fast reactions to prevent injuries to the sheep yes...

shock to the dog ? well yes that is the purpose but i dare suggest the dog is in such hyper excitement it does not register maybe as much as if whacked when calm...i can say from Feja and other dogs hit seen the dogs did not stop more than for an instant or cringe much...but yes the whip came down on them to stop them. cracking it first if possible above their heads.

using the whip on long stick in fact to give GUIDANCE to the dog was used successfully...i saw FEJA in her herding instinct test NOT get hit when she saw the stick whip waved but alter course...

here is her test if interested cant recall if the whip is seen in it or not it is not the ENTIRE test videod...

CANT Groenendael Berger Belge FEE NOIRE au troupeau 27 fev 2011 Biscarosse France.MOV - YouTube

here is a labriti dog doing his test video where the sheep is so stressed it lies down pretending to be dead...the little dog does not aggress the sheep i add...he gently tries to nuzzle it up...and this poor young dog failed the test actually to disappointement of owners due to getting tired and losing INTEREST meaning left the sheep alone...

labrit,chien berger des PYRENEES CANT Biscarosse.MOV - YouTube

ps i add on the next occasion i went for the 3 day course on actually using training...when a woman and others said they had to BREAK sticks on their own dogs backs sometimes i said STUPIDLY to them i add well i would STOP TRYING to teach my dog herding if that was necessary ! then one of those people i add WHACKED her lead across my PUPS face when he just growled at her huge adult dog stepping on him whilst asleeo sigh...so that was me out of favour when i told her she had no right to do that...sigh...i avoided the entire group after that. i will not put up with other people hitting my dogs or even PLAY FIGHT attemting as i had experiences of with so called DOG BITING SPORT enthusiasts wanting to show off and play that with my dog...sigh...that is another sore subject however so i do not go on about that.

ppss it is a matter of opinion as to who is STUPID due to being less educated in anyting i suggest...in that case of the woman hitting my dog and breaking sticks on the backs of her dogs to train them ? SHE COULD CLAIM SHE WAS A REAL SHEPHERD in the FRENCH ALPS and had trained her dogs for years ! i was just some NOBODY trying to learn with no experience ! QED !

nb yes in feja video one can see the long stick with whip on end of it...not used in the video i add not needed waving it was enough...feja was calm...not suppôsed to be under orders just act on instinct...but the whip is there just in case.

that was the INSTINCT TEST day. the 3 day course was another occasion. Same stick with whip on end in sight and used when needed to save the sheep. And giving my yes opinion after yes knowing that to be STANDARD PRACTICE i say unless dogs need to do this TEST to become REAL sheepdogs i dont like it no TO SAVE THE SHEEP first and foremost ! and the dogs wouldnt need the whips if they werent encouraged to go chasing sheep of course secondly ! if it does them any lasting training damage !

but THIS IS OFF THE THREAD TOPIC i end saying...i just replied and we got into this discussion on hitting dogs from leading into the subject so unless anyone wants to continue it i think not i have no more to say here on the matter as it is a shepherd training issue not general one for dogs


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

diefenbaker said:


> If it's that simple why do you keep on repeating it's about respect. If it's about respect no treats would be necessary. I simply don't believe a dog has the capacity to do something out of respect.


Ive always seen it as more about trust. I think if dominance theory and Alpha myths were accurate I would have a houseful of aggressive, dominant dogs making my life hell! Ok, they arent perfect but I never feel like life with them is a constant challenge or battle (which is how proponents of these theories seem to live!).
My lot eat first, go out doors first, jump all over me on sofas and beds and most of them think they are parrots and enjoy sitting on my shoulder!! Cant get higher or more dominant then attempting to practically sit on your head surely??
However I have never worried about taking things from them or moving them from somewhere. Im not sure it has occured to them in most cases that they should even challenge me!! The fact is that I provide great things and they can trust me to make their lives safer, happier and more fun.
I would much rather think 'how can I make you _want_ to do this?' rather then 'how can I make you do this?'.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> Ive always seen it as more about trust. I think if dominance theory and Alpha myths were accurate I would have a houseful of aggressive, dominant dogs making my life hell! Ok, they arent perfect but I never feel like life with them is a constant challenge or battle (which is how proponents of these theories seem to live!).
> My lot eat first, go out doors first, jump all over me on sofas and beds and most of them think they are parrots and enjoy sitting on my shoulder!! Cant get higher or more dominant then attempting to practically sit on your head surely??
> However I have never worried about taking things from them or moving them from somewhere. Im not sure it has occured to them in most cases that they should even challenge me!! The fact is that I provide great things and they can trust me to make their lives safer, happier and more fun.
> I would much rather think 'how can I make you _want_ to do this?' rather then 'how can I make you do this?'.


That last sentence says it all I think. Well said.


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## alice2012 (Oct 6, 2012)

Wow... I think this website is going too make my life 10 times easier  Deffo going too try some of these things


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> My lot eat first, go out doors first, jump all over me on sofas and beds and most of them think they are parrots and enjoy sitting on my shoulder!! Cant get higher or more dominant then attempting to practically sit on your head surely??


daniel likes to sit on my shoulders when i'm sat on the sofa, dai likes to jump on the sofa and do full on snogs when he wants attention


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I always think that if you simply show people what can be done without pain, without force, without fear, without intimidation... That you can achieve every bit as much as with the old ways, and often much more... I always think "well of course everyone would jump on board with that!" Who wouldn't prefer to use clicks and treats to whips and chains? 
Yet I still get surprised when people balk.

I mean, I get it, change is scary even if it's positive. And yes, punishment is so ingrained in our culture it's really hard to see beyond it. 

But there are SO many people out there now showing over and over, in all different venues, with all different breeds of dogs, that you simply don't need an "or else." 
So many "regular" people, not the Emily Larlhams and Susan Garretts of the world, but ordinary people like me, a middle-age schoolteacher who trains dogs as a hobby. Ordinary, average dog owners like on this thread, rescue workers, foster volunteers. If we can figure it out, it can't possibly be that hard right? 

You don't have to forge a new path alone, folks have already done it. The books are out there, the youtube videos, the FB groups... The support is there. You just have to be brave enough to step out of your comfort zone.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Buster eats before me a lot of the time or while I'm eating, is currently lying on the back of the chair above my head , goes through doorways in front of me sometimes (the bit I always found the most odd why would they be sending one of the essential breeding pair through a small enclosed space first ) and doesn't walk to heel all the time. 

He even says he rules the world. Some silly people might think that's just a terrier talking but we know he must immediately be alpha rolled 5 times a day and I must carry out all these silly rituals to show me alpha he lowly dog.

The first shows I saw were dog whisperer and borstal both heavy on dominance theory and corrections. Watching it's me or the dog with a little bichon Lily and how quickly she got her to stop barking and under control at the door with a bit of food was a complete wake up call.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Alice Childress said:


> .............. Because the man who first claimed wolves are pack animals with a leader, later changed his mind and said that he was wrong, you take that as reason to continue believing what he says is mistaken
> 
> These 'new' ideas, are not exactly new. They have been being used for a very long time.
> 
> ...


I didnt say we should continue to think he is mistaken just because he got it wrong first time...i said...quote...

<<so i see no point in agreeing fast to any new ideas that contradict all previous theories given by dog experts ! since they have changed so dramatically over time and even been contradicted over time by the same authors of the original now discounted theories !>>

meaning ? if not clear, CONSIDERING new theories stated before accepting them is needed and time to do so...

maybe in time say a few years time some of the same experts will come up with DIFFERENT theory to the one now accepted as the one and only truth !

that is entirely possible or not at all possible ? right now we think not of course !

i dismissed the WOODHOUSE theories and ways AT THE TIME i stated...now that was AGAINST POPULAR THEN HELD OPINION !

i accepted the ROLL OVER new theory explained here recently ! it was NEWS TO ME ! i add i had REFUSED the consisdered OLDER theory BEFORE reading the new theory ! just on my limited unpleasant experience of it.

i do not accept ALL of the so called NEW THEORIES yet no ! some are saying these have been around for ages and only a FEW trainers use the old ways ! well no i saw surprise at the initial reponses to the presentation of the new theories here ! so not only I am seeing new things !

i add i am confused by the statement...

<<the fact is wolves live in a family unit, not a pack with a leader established by force>>

familly...pack...ok call it a family not a pack i say the word pack is just what the dictionary uses for a group of wolves ...

with a leader established by force...

ok...but i dont see the word RESPECT not FORCE used in that statement so confused and need to re read that article posted here as i thought it was saying RESPECT and DEMOCRACY ruled not force...

the fact is...well that statement implies an absolute truth...so i cant see what calling wolves as a FACT a PACK is as an untruth...a pack of wolves...a familly of wolves...sometimes a LONE WOLF actually i dare suggest ! not all wolves lived in PACKS surely or FAMILIES ??? seeing how as there arent many to study living wild anymore all kinds of assumptions can be made maybe...

there are accounts of LONE WOLVES !

as i understand it the genetics of dogs and wolves differentiated meaning changed dramatically some 100 000 years ago so comparing them to wolves totally is not possible for the whole understanding of dogs. even the new breeds of czech wolfdogs in fact took several attempts as the first litters died due to this genetic diffences issue.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Wolves live in family groups the parents and then cubs from various litters. The original study was done on a group of adults thrown together in a zoo it's like studying us in prison and saying this is human's natural behaviour in all social settings. In that case the bully will rise to the top and that's what the original researcher thought he saw. Ask people with groups of dogs the alpha isn't the one pushing the others out of the way to steal their food or shoving them around. It's the dog that with one look can put them back in line or a raised lip.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

sianrees1979 said:


> daniel likes to sit on my shoulders when i'm sat on the sofa, dai likes to jump on the sofa and do full on snogs when he wants attention


Another one here that likes to perch on my shoulder 

As for going out the door first, i make them wait till I check its safe for them to go out ..that's it no other reason .

ETA ....it's Chester on my shoulder not Mavis !!!!


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

I see a lot of small breed owners on a few sites that still very much believe in the alpha myth, when people go on asking for help with issues and people are telling them to alpha roll them, that the dog is trying to be dominant etc i think its very dangerous advice especially given to those of them that are already having aggression issues and IMO should be getting a behaviourist involved.

I used to believe in it and so glad i learnt otherwise, in the past i have 'pinned' down one of my nervous dogs because she used to react to other dogs and i hadn't got a clue how else to deal with it other than to follow a certain man's ways. Took me absolutely ages to rebuild that dogs confidence after i managed to ruin it further


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Wolves live in family groups the parents and then cubs from various litters. The original study was done on a group of adults thrown together in a zoo it's like studying us in prison and saying this is human's natural behaviour in all social settings. In that case the bully will rise to the top and that's what the original researcher thought he saw. Ask people with groups of dogs the alpha isn't the one pushing the others out of the way to steal their food or shoving them around. It's the dog that with one look can put them back in line or a raised lip.


aha ! you believe in the ALPHA theory ! you use the world ALPHA ! meaning as i understand it the dominent individual !

that is interesting i smile !

the point i agree with greatly is when you say the ALPHA dominates...not using the word dominate i add...not by implied FORCE physically but superiority of PRESENCE just a look can control...now that i find very true of all dare i repeat ALPHAS in any society human dog or goats !

i am a believer yes in an ALPHA even maybe in packs or families of wolves in the past alpha couples read about...but...dismissing wolves as i find them not so interesting as DOGS as i am not interacting with wolves who are timid fearful animals compared to dogs in behaviour ...the reasons dogs developed and changed from wolves in fact in behaviour and genetics greatly...

maybe what is being said is that our notion of what an ALPHA BEHAVIOUR is is changing ? not that there are NO ALPHAS ? because there are 2 points in this...

1. some discount ALPHA meaning DOMINENT individual or individuals period...

2. some argue the behaviour of the ALPHAS is viewed differently.

here i see point 2, since ALPHA is not considered a myth but the behaviour of the ALPHA is viewed differently.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Yes, for time out, to give her and me a chance to cool down. I certainly don't believe in whipping her She's not the type of dog to take that sort of treatment, she hates being simply told off.


No, my dog used to attack me for simply trying to stroke him let alone tell him off or smack him.

Why would she need time out though? If your dog 'respects' you that much why does she misbehave if she knows its going to upset you or lead to her being punished?

Dogs do what they can to *avoid*conflict not create it. Yes dogs do have their off days or may struggle at the start of training but a dog misbehaving should not be a common thing.

I don't have a time out corner or a system of which i implement when he or the others do something I don't agree with because it rarely ever happens and when it does, I know exactly why and funnily enough it is almost always because of something I have or haven't done.

Rossi has never earned my respect, he has had it from day 1. He is an animal, I respect his power, his instincts and his species. I'd never expect him to respect me as mentioned above I believe respect is very much a human thing I just want Rossi to achieve comfort & happiness in me, a full belly and to be nice and warm at night  I take pride in him, not how he treats me.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> aha ! you believe in the ALPHA theory ! you use the world ALPHA ! meaning as i understand it the dominent individual !
> 
> that is interesting i smile !
> 
> ...


Not dominance theory as in dogs and wolves live in fixed hierarchies controlled by force and rituals just that there will be a leader or leaders in any social group. Certainly some individuals will have more leadership than others and some will be more submissive. But dogs listen better when you earn their cooperation they don't understand why you're pretending to eat a biscuit out of their bowl or insisting they walk beside you.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> aha ! you believe in the ALPHA theory ! you use the world ALPHA ! meaning as i understand it the dominent individual !
> 
> that is interesting i smile !
> 
> ...


Dominance, by definition, is the most important, powerful, or influential: "they are now in an even more dominant position in the market".

According to ALPHA, all my dogs are the alphas? They all influence each other. They all give each other the look of 'do' or 'don't' thats just canine communication I thought? If a dogs says I don't want to play then the other dog should back off regardless of who is bigger or alpha? Surely?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Not dominance theory as in dogs and wolves live in fixed hierarchies controlled by force and rituals just that there will be a leader or leaders in any social group. Certainly some individuals will have more leadership than others and some will be more submissive. But dogs listen better when you earn their cooperation they don't understand why you're pretending to eat a biscuit out of their bowl or insisting they walk beside you.


I agree with this, if you have a group and set them a project then they will naturally fall into some form of hierarchy. For example, I know I'm more of a 'leader' then mum is but this has nothing to do with 'alpha' I don't rule her.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

[youtube_browser]9snzQhW-h2Y[/youtube_browser]

Oh my, you weren't making it up. 

If the dog in this video were mine, I doubt I'd let him off lead in the park, let alone with sheep. He's missing all of the basics.

Note the collie that appears at the end. He is cowering and clearly afraid of the noise and the whips.

Different country, different culture, so nothing to do with me, I agree. 

No wonder you don't agree with it.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Elles said:


> [youtube_browser]9snzQhW-h2Y[/youtube_browser]
> 
> Oh my, you weren't making it up.
> 
> ...


WTF is that all about!? No way would I let Rossi off in a situation like that, I'm not sure how much damage he would inflict on those poor sheep  and what on earth is that guy with that whip...? 'Eerr ill just throw it..?'

Sorry, I hate stuff like that. Unnecessary suffering


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Elles said:


> [youtube_browser]9snzQhW-h2Y[/youtube_browser]
> 
> Oh my, you weren't making it up.
> 
> ...


hilarious !!!  i am pleased you see what i mean and understand now yes

this i point out was the HERDING INSTINCT TEST ! and NO BASIC TRAINING is required not WANTED even ! the dog must NOT do anything to orders it is about seeing what the dog does without any orders !!!

lol ! so i can assure you that same dog IS under control out in public off lead not that i do that it is ILLEGAL in france except on private land i add...*NO THAT IS NOT FEJA EXCUSE ME that is the labrit pup who failed herding instinct test *

the colley in the background must be the TESTER dog yes...there is always one there to go get the sheep TO ORDER if during the instinct test the herd scatters !!! many herding tests are done in an enclosure to prevent this happening i add...my feja test was better in one respect as she had a wider area to see if she could collect in the sheep keep them together than is obviously much easier in a small pen.

no no the colley is crouching...i must look at the vid again but the colleys work sheep differently to belgians they are belly to the ground a great deal to approach and do THE EYE rolling or fixed are the terms on the sheep...rolling eye means if interested it looks to handler shepherd for guidance FIXED EYE means it glares into the eyes of the sheep focused.

not sure if you are seeing the handler colley if it seems afraid..could be another persons colley about to do the test i add...but hope explanation helps i didnt look at the colley in the vid of course only my dog !

vid here is the LABRIT PUP NOT FEJA excuse me ! i put 2 vids up one of FEJA the other the pup who failed...EXCUSE ME

Thre are NO ORDERS to be followed at all doing this test...And i criticise it for that a bit yes...in GB the dog is i believe tested in REAL HERDING under orders of the handler or owner...Dunno which...but that is different yes to what is the test on the continent. MOST WOULD FAIL i add if tested to follow orders for that test ! the dogs are not supposed to have ever seen sheep before !

which is why there is often aggression of course...dogs afraid of the sheep even...they fail for that of course...which is why the sticks are there for the protection of the sheep

ps how AMAZING howerver that the little puip labrit did NOT AGRRESS the pretending to be dead sheep hey ! i admire the dog for that i must say.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

sezeelson said:


> WTF is that all about!? No way would I let Rossi off in a situation like that, I'm not sure how much damage he would inflict on those poor sheep  and what on earth is that guy with that whip...? 'Eerr ill just throw it..?'
> 
> Sorry, I hate stuff like that. Unnecessary suffering


i am pleased...that by seeing this excuse irrelevant to thread post and video that my views are understood better...

i feel for the sheep yes as i said before. and to do this test just to get a piece of paper for dogs to qualify in the SHOWRING ??? !!! that is the reality of the WHY ! well i disagree with it

what are people trying to prove ? that they have dogs that have the original sheepdogs instincts ....well so WHAT ? and those that fail ? NONE of these dogs other than mine FEJA intended to be a REAL SHEEPDOG !

i didint do FALCON my male as HE IS NOT A SHOWDOG i add !

but he has WORKED A HERD yes ! video of him earlier just breifly with goats

I dont agree with this test for showdogs at all.

Not all showdogs could become good sheepdogs.

Many showdogs could become good sheepdogs.

Just because non pedigrees are banned from taking this test does nto mean they would fail !

not all those PASSING THE INSTINCT test could become good sheepdogs !

Not all of those FAILING could not with training not become good sheepdogs !

so what is the point of the test for proving the dog has or has not got sheepdog instincts ?

BACK TO THE THREAD subject...this was a distraction but pleased resolved.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> no no the colley is crouching


If you look at my avatar I think you'll see I know a little about how collies behave. 

In this video, the collie was clearly ducking and cowering as he passed the guy with the stick whip and was plainly worried, trying to keep half an eye on the guy as he made a quick exit out of the way. 

In the other short video you linked of your own dog, your dog appeared to be a bit confused and wandering about looking to you for instruction, but didn't appear particularly aggressive, or excited by the sheep.

Personally, I think sheep dogs must follow handler instructions, as well as have good instincts and setting them loose to see how they behave instinctively without prior training or introduction is, well I can't find the word to describe it.  Doing it to test show or pet dogs is even more, whatever the word is when I find it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I always think that if you simply show people what can be done without pain, without force, without fear, without intimidation... That you can achieve every bit as much as with the old ways, and often much more... *I always think "well of course everyone would jump on board with that!" Who wouldn't prefer to use clicks and treats to whips and chains? *Yet I still get surprised when people balk.
> 
> I mean, I get it, change is scary even if it's positive. And yes, punishment is so ingrained in our culture it's really hard to see beyond it.
> 
> ...


The inadequate types who bully dogs for the sheer thrill of feeling superior. They cling to the pack theory because it gives them an excuse to be sadistic with something weaker than them.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Elles said:


> In this video, the collie was clearly ducking and cowering as he passed the guy with the stick whip and was plainly worried, trying to keep half an eye on the guy as he made a quick exit out of the way.


Are you sure the collie isn't showing the guy respect ? Ok..ok.. I'm off to the closet of shame.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Elles said:


> In the other short video you linked of your own dog, your dog appeared to be a bit confused and wandering about looking to you for instruction, but didn't appear particularly aggressive, or excited by the sheep.


This is slightly OT but in the Working Dogs forum there is a thread called Herding with GSDs. Check out the picture of Moobli's Zak so see a dog who is not excited by sheep.... and some sheep who are not excited by a dog.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> The inadequate types who bully dogs for the sheer thrill of feeling superior. They cling to the pack theory because it gives them an excuse to be sadistic with something weaker than them.


Well, I won't deny that there are some sadists out there in the dog training world, but - and here's me being the optimist again - I don't think *that* many people get a kick out of bullying dogs. I figure if someone has dedicated their life to working with dogs, they probably genuinely like dogs.

No, I think people are just a wee bit frightened of change, scared TO change. It's a big pill to swallow. 
For one, if you decide to do things differently, you have to on some level admit that what you did before wasn't quite right, maybe even admit that people you admire and look up to weren't all together right either. That's hard to do.

And just like our dogs, a lot of times what seems like aggression is actually rooted in fear, in wanting "the bad thing" to go away or stop. When you present someone with realities they're not ready to hear you get that aggression response. Not because people want to bully their dogs, but because you're presenting them with something scary - "I've been wrong all along and now I have to do something different."

Sometimes people are just jerks, yup, it's true. But sometimes people, just like dogs, need patience and understanding  Some days I'm better and the patience part than others


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2013)

diefenbaker said:


> This is slightly OT but in the Working Dogs forum there is a thread called Herding with GSDs. Check out the picture of Moobli's Zak so see a dog who is not excited by sheep.... and some sheep who are not excited by a dog.


I don't know the first thing about herding, but I'm pretty sure that stressed out dogs and even more stressed out stock is not the best approach?

Aren't dogs put on a long line for HITs?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

My sheep used to chase Jodi, they were best friends with Tora!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Check out the picture of Moobli's Zak so see a dog who is not excited by sheep.... and some sheep who are not excited by a dog.


Good pic, lovely dog. 

This is the video Feja posted and which I was referring to when I said her dog didn't appear to be particularly aggressive or excited by the sheep. I don't know if people who know what they're talking about would agree with me. 

[youtube_browser]4VhFQ3pAI38[/youtube_browser]

The dog does avoid the stick though. I think if I was waving a stick about like that Elles would be waiting for me to throw it for her to fetch. I've told her time and time again that we don't throw sticks, but she doesn't believe me. 

I would be mortified if she appeared to think I might hit her with it tbh.  On saying that, some animals are naturally wary and cautious, so if a dog cowered away, or looked worried about something I wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that he's hit on a daily basis, or subjected to alpha dominant style training and punishment.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I don't know the first thing about herding, but I'm pretty sure that stressed out dogs and even more stressed out stock is not the best approach?
> 
> Aren't dogs put on a long line for HITs?


Did you look at the picture ? I don't know how Moobli approached things in the beginning.. I'm guessing it wasn't Zak running around like a loon.. but in the picture if dog and stock were any more laid-back they'd both be horizontal.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> but in the picture if dog and stock were any more laid-back they'd both be horizontal.












Like this? Well one of them is horizontal. I have another pic with ponies laying down, but in that one Elles is stood up. Can't seem to capture both at once. 

No beating required.  However, Elles isn't trained or asked to herd. She works around my horses, took her into the field with 6 horses this evening, but isn't asked to herd them, but rather to keep a respectful distance and her instinctive behaviour means that she runs wide circles to do so. Her training means she doesn't enter the field, but stops where I tell her to, until I give permission for her to join me when I'm ready for her. She didn't join the other dogs on the farm when they were chasing the sheep a few weeks ago, but stayed with me. The other dogs are yelled at and walloped and none of them are safe, so we stay out of their way.

My dog is trained according to the current methods of reward based training and has never had a hand raised to her. She's a fabulous dog. All of the dogs I know who are trained with the more aggressive/assertive pack leader type training have issues.

Guess I'm just lucky.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Elles said:


> Like this? Well one of them is horizontal. I have another pic with ponies laying down, but in that one Elles is stood up. Can't seem to capture both at once.


That's good enough for me. I need Dief to be calm as we bypass livestock but I can't envisage a situation where he'd need to interact with them in any way. For instance on today's walk we passed a field which had cows right up close to the fence and I just need him to walk on with no drama. And then there were some horses on the bridlepath so we sat off to the side and watched them go past. I just don't know what's going on with you country folk having to have your dog in with the livestock. Perhaps you could come on my radio show to explain. It all went rather well last time.

[youtube_browser]n5jpVbEL0jc[/youtube_browser]


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Elles said:


> Good pic, lovely dog.
> 
> This is the video Feja posted and which I was referring to when I said her dog didn't appear to be particularly aggressive or excited by the sheep. I don't know if people who know what they're talking about would agree with me.
> 
> ...


i must explain i didint want to turn this into a sheep herding discussion off the threat title..But...meaning obviously going to add something ...

i think it came into discussion when discussin dominence and using violence on dogs in training so yes relevant to that...

howver i add* i came back to this forum after a long absence if anyone wonders how come i didnt do many posts due to yes having my herd etc expereinces and not getting help i needed and couldnt get here in fr for what i think needed before i go as i asked once on phone to the ALED OWN shepherd in wales for training...i am aware that i need to understand how to control obedience my dogs better first before trying more fancy things...and that is why i am first reading these threads as it is about general education and general dogs first THEN herding applied even if from what i have said about violence used sometiles it is obvious and shown in videos short ones here that yes i have had EXPERTS ibn SHEEPDOGS as you see using violence and i did say TO PROTECT THE SHEEP i saw in those cases no other way *!

ouff...i ramble...and on the herding area i will go to for specific to that exchanges yes i will put more videos and pics i have of my dogs when i wasnt too busy trying to manage them without camera in hand running in a field i add !

and i am pleased some here understand my criticisms of the herding INSTINCT test too now !

even ouesi ! and i take the view GENERAL views on dogs animals are to be understood by me before thinking i will understand to judge the methods specific to my needs in herding in this instance !

so i have much to read still for sure

oh to reply to the judgement of FEJA in the video...yes i am VERY please she is NOT overexcited as that is totally unmangeable by me ! she HAD to be CALM around the animals i had in open fields too to not start a STAMPEDE obviously ! that is to ME non dog expert i admit, i see that as USING HER CONTROL of her instincts sensibly intelligently...i didint want some mad dog attack on the sheep of course not ! even if in some peoples views it showed ENORMOUS so called DRIVE !

and she doesnt cower just is wary yes of the stick waved...i add in other circumstances waving anything violently at her can set her into defiance and aggressive mode..maybe she understood the man was guiding ? i dont know enought yet but maybe. the point here is FEJA was NOT SUPPOSED to look to me for guidance but act oni instinct...difficult for a dog if taught, trained to ask permission hey ? not that she is the most obedient dog on the planet quite the contrary in my view !

lol i like the bit about your dog waiting for the stick to be thrown bit...FEJA focuses on one thing at a time i find...she has enormous FETCH BALL OR STICK drive when playing with that but here she is not into asking for that i can see also. she is focused on the sheep. and a bit me who in the background am wittering on calmy trying to tell her it is ok..because i do give orders to NOT chase animals of course so here in this instinct test i wanted her to feel relaxed and spoke to her gently.

oh ok IF anyone wants some fun make you SMILE videos on this theme of mine here are a few more. noting to do with ALPHA i add unless you see the DOGS acting as ALPHAS lol

FEJA in guard relaxed mode turning into herding mode ...my other dog barking mad because he is on leash as FEJA was on heat i add...

FEE NOIRE le matin surveillante de 5 chevres novasodai 17 aout 2012 - YouTube

and relationship building...young Falcon my younger dog playing with a calf...mother cow was never happy about this nor feja i add...but it is lovely to watch...

Belgische Herdershond Groenendaler Falcon wants to play with calf - YouTube

Boris and Falcon Playing again - YouTube

boris male calf and belgian shepherd falcon fergus dakota playful - YouTube

and last fun SLIGHTLY relevant video called aLPHA GOAT CONTROLS FEEDING IN HERD...my title i add ...and i have much to read yet...

alpha goat controls feeding in herd - YouTube

and my favorite...the early days...calves 1 week old free...NOTHING to do with alpha theory so ignore of course. but evidence in the other video that adult BULLS do not aggress little calves...i thought it was a female adult but no it was a BULL


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> This is slightly OT but in the Working Dogs forum there is a thread called Herding with GSDs. Check out the picture of Moobli's Zak so see a dog who is not excited by sheep.... and some sheep who are not excited by a dog.


i went looking for this pic didnt find it..will search again not today bedtime overdue...

what struck me is that there are just a few posts on anything to do with sheepdogs working there...i found my post of when feja passed her aptitude test !

sheepdog working is not a common discussion found on any forums i add...i found one forum in france called sheepdogs working forum ... it was full of people doing a bit of it but not actually with their own herd in fact that is where i managed extraordinarily to get that place on the 3 day course ! due to a notice put on the forum saying there had been a cancellation...then when i turned up on the course found it full of people going to the course to prepare to pass the APTITUDE TEST ! hilarious hey ! when that is supposed to be an INSTINCT NEVER SEEN SHEEP test hey !!!

but not suprising...the dogworld is a closed shop and getting into any club is who you know...as i said...i only got on that short three day course due to someone being desperate to get a partner to pay for the accomodation booked..

i add the whole thing turned into disaster...three hours after getting to the gite the husband of owner came to say he didnt want dogs in there ! and i ended up sleeping on the floor of a disused abatoir !!! lol !!!

excuse me but i not surprised to not find much info discussion on actual REAL shepherds on forums anywhere no...but as stated in previous post am therefore keen to learn about OBEDIENCe and general dog issues about beheaviour etc to understand better, not being able to join any dogclub in France for that either despite efforts for reasons already given.

thanks i will look at the pic when i find it soon. sigh. oh well. there is much to read and learn however other than that and i am pleased some here of those interested saw my explanations of yes the instinct test, so called training of three days methods used and my personal videos just i think showing my caracter and my dogs caracters a bit. and of course our herd of goats and cows with babies. and we were a team. all different species. all loose in fields without experience of each other other than the days of get to know each other. and no one got gored, no one stampeded or injured...and the animals were not afraid of me no. none of them. neither was i except of my barbarossa billy goat a bit he LOOKS so fearsome with huge horns and could do serious damage yes if so inclined. i end my thoughts. cheers.

my FALCON. my darling male young dog. and barbarossa the billy goat and ieva alpha female goat.










And feja in full movement...herding her goats...









flockwatching dogs...my dogs...










my falcon facing cows










Feja two months old facing cows...










feja with kid goats...



















i have hundreds...but just one last one i love...Falcon with kid goat...


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

dont know why but i cant see the pics put in my last post...never mind they are on front page of my personal dog website...

but adding this post it is to say with EVIDENCe just read here on this forum this morning that my assertion made in this thread earlier about being wary about taking as gospel all new dog expert theories that change the world or contradict others held before...

and also supporting my claim that no not all dog experts agree on things of major or minor importance either...just like doctors for that i add...that is why we go get second opinions if one doc says we are about to die or vet about a dog just to see if there are alternative...

i WISH i could see what i read here is a new TV program on channel 4 about a USA dog expert advising what the posters are saying is eccentric to use my word for my interpretation of their comments and reactions...

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/300003-puppy-sos.html

all views of experts on dogs like those of medics for humans are valid reading...and i think woodhouse for GB was the initiator i repeat of even putting the idea in general minds out there that there was any possible theory regarding dog training...until then i certainly as adolescent had never heard of dog training experts for the ordinary person ! that doesnt mean they get it right first time...or all the time or in all they say...they like medics observe and make conclusions based on observations...interpretations...perceptions...

i perceive things like...no animal likes to be agressed. generally.

I perceive things like all animals will back off if faced with violence or punishment verbal if understood and physical certainly even if they fight back initially but find the oponnent stronger

i perceive that continual strong conflict is personally tiresome and unpleasant and unproductive want to avoid it for that reason mainly and i assume i think animals are no differnt in that

i perceive animals like most of all to PLAY and i do not see i admit in that play what some animal behaviorists claim is learning to hunt or attack skills no i see even learning bite control skills in play. i see also no obvious reason or motive in their play other than just pure and joyful FUN ! and they only slightly bite or butt each other in play not intending to do harm

i perceive for sure to get any wild or any animal to be friendly to me i must be calm and not aggressive in my initial approaches to it to reduce its natural fear of me as a strange creature and trust me i hope eventually and see me even ultimately as their protector

i do not perceive my animals as my protectors no ...call me arrogant but i see myself as their protectors. I am a human, the top of the animal food chain to use an expression. That even my goats would come to my defense if they heard me cry in pain they recognised or saw me fall or stand between me and any perceived danger is to their credit i canot claim to know if they are defending me or not just interpret their possible motives from their actions.

ps what did i see and interpret in my amateur yes attempts alone to teach my dogs to herd ? i add i did not need to teach or encourage them to DEFEND by barking at seen intruders on our land...they did that naturally... controlling them was more necessary to not get humans or wild boar attacked by them...

i saw confusion at meeting new strange animals therefore FEAR first in them caution...they did not seem keen to attack as first instinct no...but growled and any sudden movement from the animals towards them made them yes react in aggression back to them ..needed intervention by me...

evidence video of this...early days...son of barbarosso male goat...unused to dogs...unafraid...but not aggresive faced with barks of afraid i think of him young dog also meeting new animal but not attacking it at all as first option no...






i saw once contact and familiarisation was made my FALCON younger dog in particular wanted and did PLAY with the other animals in a non aggressive meaning non damaging way...i was fearful the stronger with horns bulls could hurt him yes and intervened calling the dog back if i thought that possible...i held my breath often i add

i saw the dogs were accepted as pushing or LEADINg in FRONT even by the herd to move somewhere different...i cannot say i had the skills to give the dogs orders they understood from me i add...that is what i consider OBEDIENCE training is needed for before i go anywhere near a sHEEPHERDING Expert for specific training for is about

i saw the herd look to the dogs as protectors yes..i interpret...if the dogs barked...especially at night...the animals came closer to the dogs ! illogical and surprising as that seemed to me

i just interpet. i cant say i know. experts in herding would know yes. one day. but before that i read here...and ask views on general things about training dog experiences because mine are limited to only my dogs. i have in my life owned about a dozen dogs i add different breeds the one i liked the best ? my poodles.but i must add... some of the HERDING WORKING PEOPLE I MET ON A 3 DAY COURSE AS described i did NOT approve of found very aggressive people with very aggresive with their dogs methods of training ! successfully they claimed and i dont think they lie i just said and was disapproved of that if i had to use such force as often as they said they did breaking sticks on my dogs backs even then I WOULD ABANDON TRYING TO TEACH MY DOGS TO HERD ! but to SaVE THE SHEEP i agreed with the lash occasionally seen...and i cant say my dog reacted badly meaning turned hostile to that when done if done i didnt see it hit her if it did i repeat.

the INSTINCT TEST stresses UNNECESSARILY the SHEEP i say again if not done for dogs intended to herd as a continual activity !
ppss i said poodles my fav due to having been my first dogs owned i think.i was so delighted to have such animals. adored them. i love my dogs. and i hope and think they love me. and some experts write dogs dont love us so i dont like to read that but i dont believe it to be true additionally but i cannot be sure. i just refuse that expert yes modern view of that expert read but not all the rest of what she wrote...the culture clash book.

what do you see in this video ? i see PLAY ! i see AFFECTION ! between different animals...do they love each other ? i cant say but i cant say they dont like each other ! to me they like each other have emotion !






or this one ? is the billy goat not prefering to play be affectionate to me rather than his herd ? am i seeing things i WANT to see rather than something else an expert can interpret better than me ? or just anyone !






very bad quality video a better one the same is on photobucket youtube doesnt treat avi vids well distorts the picture...

but not finding the one on photobucket fast and not knowing if anyone is really that interested...here is this one...

the ALPHA myth yes is assumed by me in a heard by me statement on the video saying...THEY KNOW THEIR PLACE meaning the goats need to stay put...and hilariously i being inadequate with chains one got loose...this is in the town center i add traffic around people shouting cars dogs...and my goats landscaping the public trees calmly not stressed...oh ja i got my animals SOCIALISED used to all sounds like advised in the culture clash etc expert books ! lol !!! but also...if anyone looks at this ...when i stupidly announce seeing the goat ALPHA goat i add ieva take off loose...I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ! the DOGS are already it seems to me in place ! they block the passage of the goat...now i gave no order...maybe i am interpreting my dogs wanted to control stop the goat moving off...


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Feja - as you avoided my question in the other thread I have reposted it here, as it seems relevent.



> Separately i add...in regard to the thread title...PREDICTING DANGEROUS HUMAN BEHAVIOUR...
> 
> here is my list of to me most SERIOUS Human behaviour that can incite a dog to then become DANGEROUS meaning likely to ATTACK AND BITE....and i am refering to NORMAL PETS of ANY BREED here ! not SPECIALLY trained dogs !
> 
> ...


Would you consider yourself in this? You have admitted to hitting your own dogs with your hands, leads, and pretending to whip them (whipping over their heads) even though one dog reacts with growling etc. You continue to defend the use of physical punishment i.e. HITTING despite your claims that it is "asking for trouble".

Seems very hypocritical to me, unless you can explain an alternative?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I just had a look at this bloke's website, to see if he still clung to the bizarre illusion that his google rankings told how good he was, and I found this in a section about grooming:

"This is a dog that does not believe the owners have the right or position to groom them"

He starts off by debunking the whole pack leader idea, then resorts to the idea that the pack leader does the grooming and the dog does not believe the owner has the right, if he does not like being groomed.

He is a mine of contradictions.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Colette said:


> Feja - as you avoided my question in the other thread I have reposted it here, as it seems relevent.
> 
> Would you consider yourself in this? You have admitted to hitting your own dogs with your hands, leads, and pretending to whip them (whipping over their heads) even though one dog reacts with growling etc. You continue to defend the use of physical punishment i.e. HITTING despite your claims that it is "asking for trouble".
> 
> Seems very hypocritical to me, unless you can explain an alternative?


i dont see it as hypocritical, i havent seen the question in other post i will return to look for it soon now you mention it i add

i am saying it is bound to be a risk...yes i have hit my own dogs...rarely but sometimes...and i added in that thread that it was ESPECIALLY dangerous and not acceptable for STRANGERS to the dog not its owner to hit it or use threats...that is even more dangerous and i find yes thre are people who think that is ok and have done so to my own dogs...pretending to hit them not knowing the dog at all...

ANY aggression by ANY living creature is a RISK the aggressor takes. i accept i am taking a RISK when using it with my dogs of course ! so it has to be controlled..reasonable...or the dog will be in screaming fear or turn on me for sure ! that to me makes sense. it is CONTROLLED and MY RISK for sure. and my dogs communicate this to me if excessive i can assure you ! one smack lightly is enough ! yelling they take no notice of that they dont see as agression i add.

When i am out in a field I HAVE TO YELL of course ! now if you find that aggressive that is a view but in HERDING people not just me YELL yes ! if they have no other tool to use like a whistle ! how else can you think dogs hear you talking softly when far away ??? so yelling to my dogs is not something they fear. seems logical statement to make and explained.

my dog is my property is the first objection i have to strangers hitting it...just as other people should not smack kids belonging to other people...and play fighting is NOT understood by dogs no with strangers they have never done that with...a stranger is a stranger.

that explains my defense of my statement especially for strangers non owners of the dog.

to explain why i think i am entitled or any dog owner is entitled to occasionally use physical threats or actual punishment...once the dog understands the THREAT obviously prefered to the actual deed...it learns to back off...dogs GROWL at other dogs in THREATS to them...they only ATTACK them physically if the growling does not make the other dog BACK OFF

i think that put shortly without adding to it is enough of a reasonable illustration of my point.

arriving at an understanding yes of WHO IS MAKING THE DECISONS around here with my dogs is to me and i suggest other dog owners needed. Call it RELATIONSHIP if wanting to use another term...but there is ONE person in charge of my dogs ME not them. otherwise we would have long discussions as just now over whether the dogs want to come in after the walk or not...my bitch sat down refusing to be even pulled on her lead...communicating yes to me she did not want to go indoors. she likes it outside. i understand that. however no i didnt smack her or threaten her but yes i USED FORCE to PICK %HER UP after DRAGGING her failed after TALKING to her nicely failed ! i was not going to spend more than a few minutes in this yes DISCUSSION with her !

so i used FORCE just now...no hitting...i tried TALKING encourageing her showing her the ball...IT TOOK ffffffg ages i assure you ! she is a very willful ALPHA dog in my view yes ! dominates my other male...jsut before than on the walk she controlled the play stick he wanted...growling at him...lunging but not biting if he seized it he started barking and I INTERVENTED WAVING in THREAT at BOTH of them the LEADS saying THE LEADS ?? STOP IT ! and they stopped ARGUING or whatever they were doing. My bitch PUT DOWN the stick the male took it no probs and everyone went on their way.

I hope this explains.

ps waving the LEADS was not a threat to HIT them i add...they UNDERSTAND it means ? I WILL PUT THEM ON LEADS !! this they have learnt from experience from me ! they HATE being on leads of course any dog does ! it can mean i may hit them as i threw at them when HERDING and they were far away to get them off a goat...just like the HERDING TRAINERS do with overexcited dogs training...the STICK and WHIP is a DIRECTION and yes utlimate CORRECTION tool of the shepherds...all use them..the THREAT is eventually enough and i stated previously i told those expereinced shperherds needing to do that often on their dogs in the 3 day course i did ...they did it 20 times more often than i did in 6 months to evaluate the number of hits i add to give an idea...i said if i had to hit that often to get the messsage through to change behaviour i would STOP TRAINING the dogs as sheepdogs...my view is they learn FAST or no they are not good enough for what i want as sheepdogs.

ppss *can i put a question to you in return ?

what in the case of dogs seizing a sheep at 500 meters or yards away from you would you do to save the sheep ?

yell ? ok what next and how long do you wait ? how long does the SHEEP need to suffer while you try recall etc that fails for whatever reason ? do you let the dog break the sheeps leg ? tear its throat ? there is no alternative i say...you THROW something at them ! and make them understand STOP IT*ppss... i state again, im AGAINST the HERDING INSTINCT TEST for dogs not intended for real later sheepdog work. because untrained dogs not working to order just let loose on sheep are unpredictable of course ! and the sheep can get hurt.

so the stick and whip is used as standard practice by experienced shepherds to protect their sheep. i say yes to that of course ! do you say no ?

what i say NO to is the TEST at all for unintended to be sheepdogs.

Later when training the dogs with commands there is BOUND to be some issues with aggression of the sheep ! so again the deterent is needed to save the sheep and teach the dogs NO. have you any other suggestions for this ? because i will pass them on to shepherds if so !

the DEGREE and NUMBER OF TIMES such physical correcttion is needed has to be evaluated by the shepherd or trainer to decide if that dog is suitable for herding or not ! if a dog slow to learn or just hell bent on aggressing sheep then just stop using the dog is obviously what happens unless some AMATEUR just wanting their dog to PLAY like that on sheep for no reason like having their own herd insists they want to do sheep herding ! and hey money talks ! if people think they have a sheepdog and can go play on herds like that totally unsuitable dogs yes will harm sheep just for sport !

i remind you...i hit my dogs 3 TIMES in 6 MONTHS only for what i thought was agressing goats in the distance yes...i lashed out at them and yelled etc ! now i consider that EXTREMELY FEW HITS ! extremely few ! for dogs with NO REAL TRAINING in herding ! just loose ! under yes a totaly nerd like me who has not learnt enough obedience training for dogs ! and i want it but i still say my dogs seem suitable because no i didnt need to hit them daily even weekly just a few times they maybe got overexcited and went into what is called preydrive too much !


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I just had a look at this bloke's website, to see if he still clung to the bizarre illusion that his google rankings told how good he was, and I found this in a section about grooming:
> 
> "This is a dog that does not believe the owners have the right or position to groom them"
> 
> ...


i as stated have not seen the tv programe mentioned in that other thread...but it seems clear to me people are disagreeing yes with his views and he is contradicting himself from what you say also...

and THIS IS AN EXPERT who is deemed suitable for TV ! lol for sure ! 
so everyone can pick and choose what they believe they want to practice in reality which is sensible or we would be all morons believing everything anyone on TV put to us as an expert says...and we get as i said different doctors opinions when we think there could be valid alternatives.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> i dont see it as hypocritical, i havent seen the question in other post i will return to look for it soon now you mention it i add
> 
> i am saying it is bound to be a risk...yes i have hit my own dogs...rarely but sometimes...and i added in that thread that it was ESPECIALLY dangerous and not acceptable for STRANGERS to the dog not its owner to hit it or use threats...that is even more dangerous and i find yes thre are people who think that is ok and have done so to my own dogs...pretending to hit them not knowing the dog at all...
> 
> ...


I think the problem is that in the UK sheepdogs are trained.

Puppies will pick up some of the basics from watching the older dogs and when their training starts it is set up so that the livestock used is safe from overenthusiasm or lack of training. The whole idea in the UK is that the sheepdog works in partnership with the shepherd and obey because they want to, not because they are scared not to. In the UK, if a dog turns out not to be suitable to work sheep/cows because they get too rough with them, the dog is rehomed away from livestock - a dog who is punished for getting too involved with livestock is likely to turn into a dog who hates the livestock and can never be fully trusted and that's not a good working relationship.

I know from chatting to folk in the USA that people can easily tell which sheepdogs have been trained by force and which have not - it takes longer and more effort to teach a dog using positive methods, but the results speak for themselves.

@ wobble

I feel sorry for you and your collie - your method of treating your dog means that you will never experience the half of the relationship I have with my collie. Yes he is a dog, not a human and yes we have rules which ensure his and people's safety. But he's my partner in sports, my companion out and about for walks and fun, and after a long day he might bring a toy and want to spend time playing, so if I'm not busy we do. Or he might bring his favourite chew object and want to sit beside me cuddling in and "sharing" it. And it's the dog-initiated moments of togetherness that make the relationship so much closer and more special than the rigid rules of owner must do... dog must do... and must not.... allow.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

speug said:


> I think the problem is that in the UK sheepdogs are trained.
> 
> Puppies will pick up some of the basics from watching the older dogs and when their training starts it is set up so that the livestock used is safe from overenthusiasm or lack of training. The whole idea in the UK is that the sheepdog works in partnership with the shepherd and obey because they want to, not because they are scared not to. In the UK, if a dog turns out not to be suitable to work sheep/cows because they get too rough with them, the dog is rehomed away from livestock - a dog who is punished for getting too involved with livestock is likely to turn into a dog who hates the livestock and can never be fully trusted and that's not a good working relationship.
> 
> ...


you didint answer my question...i ask again...in the SHEEP HERDING INSTINCT TEST or even after that if a dog is SEIZING SHEEP at at distance not responding to orders to let go..and i remind the INSTINCT TEST does not involved orders it is an INSTINCT test so the stick is there to prevent injury to sheep...

what other than physical hit will prevent the sheep from being injured unreasonably ???

you talk about what you believe practice is in GB without saying if a stick is used or not as deterrent i also add...

you talk about puppies learning from older dogs ! that is not unique to GB ! but not the case for ALL SHEEPDOGS or even possible in reality !

you THINK the problem in the uk is that the dogs are trained ? err excuse me but thinking and knowing are different things...ok you are admiting you do not know for sure by that statement...and i say in addition

the INSTINCT TEST i disapprove of for just doing it for the sake of having a piece of paper not intended for dogs meant to be herding dogs is wrong as yes it involves taking risks with sheep with too many dogs for no good reason

sigh..you state IF THE DOG TURNS OUT TO BE UNSUITABLE in the uk it is discarded...well of course ! anywhere ! but back to the use of physical deterrent...dogs NOT BROUGHT UP in this IDEAL picture you present of pups learning from parents thing....for those dogs...there are going to be aggressions on the sheep or attempted ones of varying degrees of injury to the sheep involved in the learning process.

so unlike training for say SIT, COME HERE where you are close to the dog and dont need to hit it as it is not doing anyting aggressive out of your reach you cant control...what alternative is there to using the stick as a deterrent...or even to hit the dog to deter it from its actions ?

<<The whole idea in the UK is that the sheepdog works in partnership with the shepherd and obey because they want to, not because they are scared not to>> quote...

oh dear. i certainly think you have got the wrong end of the stick here to use a pun...i never said it was difficult to get my dogs to run after sheep or goats ! i dont think any but the dogs afraid of sheep in a herding instinct test who fail it due to that have that problem ! no one FORCES a dog to go chase sheep to my knowledge unless you know some hell bent people obsessed that they want their dogs to be sheepdogs ? the concept of frightening dogs into chasing sheep is alien to me in reality ! obeying orders to STOP chasing is more the issue in practice...and if the dog does not stop to order for whatever reason then physical correction is used...because the sheep have to be protected. dogs obey if they want to yes a general statement...but when they dont want to obey ? i suggest we try and make them understand yes...if they understand and still will not obey ? then physical correction is needed yes in my view. CERTAINLY if about to injure other animals and not in reach to stop gently. ALL working with humans and sheepdogs is a PARTNERSHIP ! in any country ! it is not something unique to GB ! i fail to see how it could be ! there is a human, a dog or dogs and other animals out there...all interacting ! the dog has to learn to interact with the human IN CHARGE YES ! the HUMAN is the ALPHA here ! or else we will be having discussions of a very strange nature out there in reality ! if the shepherd is not the ALPHA out there well i am yes really outta touch with what shepherding is about ! HE gives the orders ! not the dog ! the SHEPHERD decides if the sheep are to go into a pen or another field first not the dog ! please tell me if that is so wrong a statement !!! have you watched youtube sheeptrials ? the shepherds in CHARGE use whistles i noticed they give ORDERS to the dogs ! now i define that as being ALPHAS ! the dogs AGREE to follow orders. there is NO DISCUSSION about WHO should be the alpha it is the HUMAN !

well you feel sorry for my dogs ! lol !  and feel you have a superior relationship with your dogs !  i would not dare to suggest such a thing to you or judge without seeing the relationship itself...that is a big assumption unproven you make in that statement. your examples given of activites involved are playing with toys...NOT SHEEP OR ANIMALS out there in the distance ! if i have not provided EVIDENCE on videos and in explanations enough to show relationships that are good between my animals and me then i see those videos differently to you...But i can say the same for play with toys as you do for the relationship between myself and my dogs easily ! and i would like evidence of how YOUR dogs and you interacted with a HERD OF ANIMALS LOOSE AWAY from you ! maybe you would not YELL or just let them bite the sheep ! or keep them on leads until you were certain you could control them ??? that is easy yes for sure i say to that ! that is not herding however !

i excuse your remarks due to being like many here surprised and yes inexperienced in any real herding...your views are from limited only chats to shepherds and have not asked the questions i put here...you say you think they work on

and i just went on google thing and immediately pulled up this...to help you understand GB shepherds do not use different essentially tools or methods to train no...you are wrong...and the wording is ? USE SPARINGLY !!! which is i believe EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING ! the DEGREE used matters !










please do read....

Training Whip Flags

i see NO VIEW that the EVIDENCE of explanations and pictures and videos provided of the relationships with my animals finds any positive comments whatsoever from you....it is all negative ! i have in your view a negative relationship with my dogs or even animals generally due to offending your wish to hold to an ABSOLUTE principle that no physical correction is ever acceptable useful or advisable when training dogs.

based i add on NO real experience of actually SEEING training in action yourself or explaining how shepherds CORRECT the dogs otherwise...

i think we should therefore cease this discussion regarding myself on sheepherding training yes...it is obvious you do not understand or want to understand my needs a shepherds needs and see all physical corrections as a total breakdown in relationships with dogs.

i think we can agree with that last statement at least.

in the meantime...i dare suggest that you keep your dogs on leads around any livestock yes...if you have not learnt as i have how to stop their PREYDRIVE enough to prevent injury to any animals in particular that do not belong to you. meaning TOTAL CONTROL NOT TO CHASE to say 95 percent confidence level.

btw...the opening statement in the thread on DANGEROUS OWNERS i must find again ended saying...rescues and dog sellers should AVOID mentioning using physical punishment as a training tool...but did NOT advise ADVISING TOTALLY AGAINST IT ! now that to me and most people is a very different thing...and my quesiton there is WHY does the article NOT say categorically NO PHYSICAL CORRECTION PUNISHMENT EVER to use on dogs sold or taken from rescues ????

that to me is interesting...surely they should be CATEGORIC about this physical correction if it is totally true ? making it a positive thing to say not a negative saying JUST AVOID MENTIONING physical correcton ?

too many questions...you did not answer my question as to ALTERNATIVE in the instance given...you just sidetracked onto partly known things based on chats not actually having seen training in action or accounts of it...And here are pictures of yes UK USED TOOLS FOR HERDING TRAINING !!! WHIP is a word i see there hey ! NOT SO DIFFERENT to other countires hey ! 

we all live and learn hey...i hope some of my info helps you as yours does me...and end not by saying you have a bad relationship with your dogs because i dont know that and i would not say so. any dog owner i say is worth the benefit of any doubt on that subject...it has to be extremely obvious to make such a conclusion...when not giving evidence or view
s even of that from pictures videos provided even.

ps maybe this HERDING WEBSITE selling whips for shepherd dog training is USA not GB but hey i say it doesnt matter herding is herding no matter what the country...i am only against the HERDING INSTINCT TEST for dogs not intended for sheepwork in reality.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> i WISH i could see what i read here is a new TV program on channel 4 about a USA dog expert advising what the posters are saying is eccentric to use my word for my interpretation of their comments and reactions...
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/300003-puppy-sos.html
> 
> all views of experts on dogs like those of medics for humans are valid reading...


You can't compare a licensed medical professional to a dog trainer. Doctors have stringent requirements and licensing they have to attain before they can call themselves doctors. Anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer - hence the likes of the psychopathic Brad Pattison. He is NOT a dog expert, he has ZERO qualifications nor education even remotely related to animals. The people who are "successful" as TV trainers are often good at MARKETING, has nothing to do with their dog skills.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> the INSTINCT TEST stresses UNNECESSARILY the SHEEP i say again if not done for dogs intended to herd as a continual activity !


It doesn't have to though. There is no reason why a dog can't be put on a long line. Most stockmen I know would not want any of their stock stressed even a little, never mind like in that one video you posted where the poor sheep lay down. That's horrible.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> i dont see it as hypocritical, i havent seen the question in other post i will return to look for it soon now you mention it i add
> 
> i am saying it is bound to be a risk...yes i have hit my own dogs...rarely but sometimes...and i added in that thread that it was ESPECIALLY dangerous and not acceptable for STRANGERS to the dog not its owner to hit it or use threats...that is even more dangerous and i find yes thre are people who think that is ok and have done so to my own dogs...pretending to hit them not knowing the dog at all...


But if your dog were not already defensive because you have been threatening to him, they would not be so defensive about a stranger acting stupid.
I have two dogs who are therapy dogs. On one visit, a gentleman grabbed my dog's thigh and squeezed hard enough to make my dog yelp in surprise. I don't know why the man did it or even if he knew what he was doing, but it doesn't matter. The man is in a home, he's mentally not all there, and my dog is there to offer comfort. Can you imagine if my dog had retaliated?! 
My dog is no shrinking violet, but his first reaction was surprise followed by looking to me for direction. I believe part of the reason he did not become defensive is because being hurt by a human is a complete anomaly in his life.

When you use fear and pain and intimidation you create a straw that broke the camel's back type situation. One day the dog might just reach his threshold of patience and say he's done and decide you are NOT going to hit him again. I've ended up with a few of those dogs as rescues, and they're perfectly lovely dogs, they just hit the end of their rope. Unless you have a magic mirror and can see in to the future, no one knows how long their dog's rope is.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> ANY aggression by ANY living creature is a RISK the aggressor takes. i accept i am taking a RISK when using it with my dogs of course ! so it has to be controlled..reasonable...or the dog will be in screaming fear or turn on me for sure ! that to me makes sense. it is CONTROLLED and MY RISK for sure. and my dogs communicate this to me if excessive i can assure you ! one smack lightly is enough ! yelling they take no notice of that they dont see as agression i add.


Why take the risk at all if you don't have to?



FEJA JUODAS said:


> to explain why i think i am entitled or any dog owner is entitled to occasionally use physical threats or actual punishment...once the dog understands the THREAT obviously prefered to the actual deed...it learns to back off...dogs GROWL at other dogs in THREATS to them...they only ATTACK them physically if the growling does not make the other dog BACK OFF


Actually dogs are FAR more subtle than that, there's about 100 signals given off before the growl even. And it's not a threat, it's a warning. 
And I'm pretty sure no dog feels entitled to threaten another dog. If they did, they'd have trouble getting along with any dog...



FEJA JUODAS said:


> ppss *can i put a question to you in return ?
> 
> what in the case of dogs seizing a sheep at 500 meters or yards away from you would you do to save the sheep ?
> 
> yell ? ok what next and how long do you wait ? how long does the SHEEP need to suffer while you try recall etc that fails for whatever reason ? do you let the dog break the sheeps leg ? tear its throat ? there is no alternative i say...you THROW something at them ! and make them understand STOP IT*


My dogs wouldn't grab a sheep 500 meters away because I would have recalled them. If they didn't have a reliable recall, they would be on a long line.

It's the management/training thing I explained earlier in the thread. Pulling a dog who got away from you off a sheep is management, not training. That's when you roll up a newspaper nice and tight and smack YOURSELF over the head for letting things get to that point to begin with.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

speug said:


> I know from chatting to folk in the USA that people can easily tell which sheepdogs have been trained by force and which have not - it takes longer and more effort to teach a dog using positive methods, but the results speak for themselves.


I don't know the first think about herding, but really, you can. When you start punishing a dog for instinctual behavior is really messes with them and it shows up in the work. There's actually a blog somewhere where the author explains in detail what happens when you use force on a sheepdog, I'll try to find it. It's pretty detailed but basically he talks about how the dog now becomes a "sneaky" worker, trying to figure out how to do what he needs to do while also avoiding the punishment, not 100% focused on the job. It's a good read...


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I don't know the first think about herding, but really, you can. When you start punishing a dog for instinctual behavior is really messes with them and it shows up in the work. There's actually a blog somewhere where the author explains in detail what happens when you use force on a sheepdog, I'll try to find it. It's pretty detailed but basically he talks about how the dog now becomes a "sneaky" worker, trying to figure out how to do what he needs to do while also avoiding the punishment, not 100% focused on the job. It's a good read...


Whether it's the same blog or not, it put me in mind of this guy's approach:

Andy Nickless Working Sheepdog Blog

"_Perhaps most importantly of all, your dog must trust you. It's a sad sight at a sheepdog trial to see a great run and then in his moment of triumph, the handler stoops to pat the dog and the poor thing cowers or dodges out of the way. Unfortunately, it's possible to train a dog with fear - but that doesn't make it right (it's worth mentioning that if a dog cowers or runs away from its handler, it doesn't necessarily mean the guy's been abusing the dog - it may be a legacy from a previous handler or trainer or the dog may be a nervous type).
_"

Although my collie is a pet, he's from working stock - I've found this blog fascinating in terms of understanding where I go wrong in communicating with Gruff.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

changing the subject off HERDING which is a specialist area no one but myself discussing here has tried from those criticising me is obvious...

subject ALPHA just for info shared ...just in from the vet who gave me a view his PERSONAL view i add not being categoric about being RIGHT...

yes HE believes in ALPHA theory for SOME not ALL species of animals.

we were talking of my goats...they have ALPHAS yes. as do DOGS he said. NOT CATS ! their social structure is different, the reason why cats are not trainable easily like dogs. he explained ALPHA species were more trainable due to yes recognising and accepting a ROLE ALPHA so humans become the ALPHA to dogs. 

i additionally asked him his view on ROLL OVER i recently here said i agreed the new theory to..he said i was wrong...the roll over for submission is not used just if the dog is about to KILL the other dog but to SUBDUE the other dog into submission. now i still say i dont like it based on my bad experience of it...but talking of my incident a few years ago of this he said reasonably to me that my dog could not have any IDEA of my about to KILL her not having experience of DEATH itself or even seeing death done by that action !!! lol !!! open my eyes ! so i see his point...unless the dog has some INSTINCTUAL understanding that being on its back means it is about to DIE and how would we know that ? then the dog just feels subdued put down yes but has not got DEATH on its mind...i just share...i am trying to share as i want to understand and am open to new ideas if i find them reasonable with evidence to support it.

just a view shared..one held by a VET used to animals yes. and we talked about abatoirs actually and the effects of that on humans working there but that is not of interest here..just something he had experience of as i did so were chatting. 

my vets views on alpha may be wrong. he cannot be certain. just have a view. and i was pleased he shared it with explanations to me for it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> so unlike training for say SIT, COME HERE where you are close to the dog and dont need to hit it as it is not doing anyting aggressive out of your reach you cant control...what alternative is there to using the stick as a deterrent...or even to hit the dog to deter it from its actions ?


I doubt I could hit my dog with any level of accuracy if she was 500 metres away from me. Don't you teach a distance down, directional controls and a recall from distance? Don't you start close with no distractions and build up to distance with distractions?

Or do you just let the dog loose with no prior training and throw things at him if he chases something?

You don't agree with the herding test for pet dogs without prior training, so why do you agree with letting your dogs loose with livestock without prior training? Isn't it the same thing, only difference being you hit your dogs yourself and it's not some random bloke with a whip? 

Maybe part of the problem is that people in France aren't allowed to let their dogs off the lead. In the UK we are, so we have to deal with all kinds of chasing. Squirrels, rabbits, deer, push-bikes, joggers... If our dog was chasing a random jogger, we threw something at the dog and it hit the jogger, where's there's blame, there's a claim and we could find ourselves in court for assault.  If our dog actually attacked and bit the jogger our dog could be in even worse trouble.

I know it's slightly different, in that a sheep-dog is meant to run after things, but surely there's training and preparation that can be done that means the animal isn't just let loose and hit when he makes a mistake?

It does relate to this thread, as people use the alpha myth to back up their ideas on physical punishment to control their dogs' learned or instinctive behaviour and it has the same result and same risks whether the dog is expected to herd sheep, pick up for the guns, or walk on the lead around town imo.

I feel that there's no excuse for hitting a dog as part of his training and if it becomes necessary, the handler has failed, not the dog and the fallout can be catastrophic.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> you didint answer my question...i ask again...in the SHEEP HERDING INSTINCT TEST or even after that if a dog is SEIZING SHEEP at at distance not responding to orders to let go..and i remind the INSTINCT TEST does not involved orders it is an INSTINCT test so the stick is there to prevent injury to sheep...
> 
> what other than physical hit will prevent the sheep from being injured unreasonably ???
> 
> ...


ok - you didn't understand what I was trying to say.

the problem is that in the UK we train dogs BEFORE they are loose round sheep so we find it difficult to understand that in other parts of the world people would not do the same. I'm glad to hear you don't approve of the test, and I don't see what it is meant to prove in any way.

in the UK we do NOT let untrained dogs harass livestock as some sort of test so there is no need to physically hurt dogs to stop them killing/seriously injuring livestock.

I'm not a shepherd and don't work my dog so I can only say what I know from people who are. But neither am I completely ignorant or have some romanticised idea of rural life, I live near a few sheep farms (nearest sheep field is about a 2 minute walk from my house) often see shepherds working their dogs and training the youngsters, and some of my good mates are farmers. I don't know exact details of how the training goes, just what I've been told and what I've seen for myself when they're training the young dogs in the fields near me.

None of the shepherds I know hit their dogs or try to use force to get them to be gentle round sheep. They train their dogs slowly and keep the sheep safe by physical barriers until the dog can be controlled by voice. Most of the time they carry a stick but it is not for hitting the dog, it is to create a barrier (most often in the sheep's mind).

My dog is always under control round livestock - if we are in close proximity he is on a lead, if they are further away he is off lead but does what he is told. On the rare occasion we have suddenly found sheep around when we are up the hills he comes away and leaves them when he's told. If I didn't trust in his training to come away, he would be on a lead but although he is from working lines his training is stronger than his herding instinct.

I know the relationship between a pet/sports dog and owner is different to a working dog and owner. I was not commenting on your relationship with your dogs - that was aimed at wobble and then I wasn't saying that the relationship (s)he has is a bad one - just that in my opinion it could be much more.

*it is obvious you do not understand or want to understand my needs a shepherds needs and see all physical corrections as a total breakdown in relationships with dogs.* You're right that is indeed my position - your method of working with your dogs is so different from the way shepherds round here train and work their dogs that I find it really difficult to take in or see why it is necessary to physically hit your dogs when none of the shepherds I know do.

And finally - yes it is extremely important that the website you linked to was aimed at the US market not the UK - things are done differently in different parts of the world and as I said, I don't personally know of anyone round my way who would use such a thing


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I am having a lot of trouble with this point of view from Feja. Put simply, in my view and I am sure in lots of other people's view, if you ever think you _need_ to hit your dog, you have got no business owning one.

Distance commands can be taught, lots of people have done it. I don't wait and see what my dog does wrong, then hit him for doing it wrong when nobody has taught him what he should be doing.

I tempt my dogs with treats. Some might call it bribery, and perhaps it is, but so long as I can control them, who cares? Not me, and certainly not my dogs.

You say your dog bares his teeth, acts aggressively when you hit him or shout at him? One day he is going to attack you and then everyone will say he is a dangerous dog and he shall be put down, when it will be your fault for teaching him to be aggressive.

I have no patience with you.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> changing the subject off HERDING which is a specialist area no one but myself discussing here has tried from those criticising me is obvious...


I do not need to have trained a dog to herd to know that you don't have to use force to do it and that you don't turn a dog loose on the stock and hope for the best then run around like a chicken with your head cut off if it doesn't work out.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> subject ALPHA just for info shared ...just in from the vet who gave me a view his PERSONAL view i add not being categoric about being RIGHT...
> 
> yes HE believes in ALPHA theory for SOME not ALL species of animals.
> 
> we were talking of my goats...they have ALPHAS yes. as do DOGS he said. NOT CATS ! their social structure is different, the reason why cats are not trainable easily like dogs. he explained ALPHA species were more trainable due to yes recognising and accepting a ROLE ALPHA so humans become the ALPHA to dogs.


 Actually, cats are very trainable with the right methods.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> i additionally asked him his view on ROLL OVER i recently here said i agreed the new theory to..he said i was wrong...the roll over for submission is not used just if the dog is about to KILL the other dog but to SUBDUE the other dog into submission. now i still say i dont like it based on my bad experience of it...but talking of my incident a few years ago of this he said reasonably to me that my dog could not have any IDEA of my about to KILL her not having experience of DEATH itself or even seeing death done by that action !!! lol !!! open my eyes ! so i see his point...unless the dog has some INSTINCTUAL understanding that being on its back means it is about to DIE and how would we know that ? then the dog just feels subdued put down yes but has not got DEATH on its mind...i just share...i am trying to share as i want to understand and am open to new ideas if i find them reasonable with evidence to support it.
> 
> just a view shared..one held by a VET used to animals yes. and we talked about abatoirs actually and the effects of that on humans working there but that is not of interest here..just something he had experience of as i did so were chatting.
> 
> my vets views on alpha may be wrong. he cannot be certain. just have a view. and i was pleased he shared it with explanations to me for it.


I think it's more conducive to a conversation (vs. debate) if instead of talking in terms of "right" and "wrong" when it comes to training, we talk in terms of "effective" and "ineffective", maybe even "humane" and "inhumane".

I'm of the mind that an alpha roll is INeffective. It doesn't teach the dog anything other than fear and avoidance which to me is counter productive to teaching a dog to DO things. 
Not to mention, how are you planning to alpha roll in to submission a feral great dane who weighs as much as an average sized woman and has far better teeth?


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I am having a lot of trouble with this point of view from Feja. Put simply, in my view and I am sure in lots of other people's view, if you ever think you _need_ to hit your dog, you have got no business owning one.
> 
> Distance commands can be taught, lots of people have done it. I don't wait and see what my dog does wrong, then hit him for doing it wrong when nobody has taught him what he should be doing.
> 
> ...


well said!!!


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't wait and see what my dog does wrong, then hit him for doing it wrong when nobody has taught him what he should be doing.


I think this sentence really sums it up for me I'd always rather train my dog to do it right than punish him for guessing wrong.

it's also where CM and his followers go wrong IMO - they let the dog rehearse behaviours they don't want then punish when the dog does instead of training the dog to do what they do want.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ouesi said:


> You can't compare a licensed medical professional to a dog trainer. Doctors have stringent requirements and licensing they have to attain before they can call themselves doctors. Anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer - hence the likes of the psychopathic Brad Pattison. He is NOT a dog expert, he has ZERO qualifications nor education even remotely related to animals. The people who are "successful" as TV trainers are often good at MARKETING, has nothing to do with their dog skills.
> 
> ..........so you agree i am understanding that taking the view of a dog trainer is not advisable without evaluating it personally before accepting anything said !
> 
> ...


...........i dont understand this point...will look at other thread tonight...pulling a dog who got away from me off a sheep...dont understand...i didnt pull my dogs off sheep... a trainer used a long whip stick to direct and discourage if he saw the dog any dog grab a sheep...i add HIS dog did grab sheep nip bite them ....that is part of sheepdog work...yes sheepdogs do bite the rumps...ankles...noses even of the animals and no one is going to tell me that is easy to control without trial and error and mistakes being made until bite control is achieved...i am not in that case...i am in the refusal point blank of any seizure of goat or sheep mode....and am not considering the acceptable level of seizure that yes in time WHEN I GO FOR SHEEP HERDING TRAINING i will learn about from a shepherd...who will no doubt use a stick whip as deterent also and i just hope and expect will not be needed much at all on my dogs due to having with me come to understanding with only 3 instances of needing any physical restraint on them to manage so far ! that from what i have seen is very very little compared to many.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I am having a lot of trouble with this point of view from Feja. Put simply, in my view and I am sure in lots of other people's view, if you ever think you _need_ to hit your dog, you have got no business owning one.
> 
> Distance commands can be taught, lots of people have done it. I don't wait and see what my dog does wrong, then hit him for doing it wrong when nobody has taught him what he should be doing.
> 
> ...


couldn't have said it better myself newfiesmum


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I am having a lot of trouble with this point of view from Feja. Put simply, in my view and I am sure in lots of other people's view, if you ever think you _need_ to hit your dog, you have got no business owning one.
> 
> Distance commands can be taught, lots of people have done it. I don't wait and see what my dog does wrong, then hit him for doing it wrong when nobody has taught him what he should be doing.
> 
> ...


I will reply to this post before having to go off for other things today...

i have no business owning a dog if i ever hit it...is what i read...

well that includes a vast number of people with dogs i believe !

so why does the DANGEROUS DOGS ADVICE article in another thread not categorically state this also ??? why is that statement not in ALL literature about dogs from sellers rescues etc ???

why is there not a kennel club policy statement saying that also ?

no answers to those to me obvious questions ???

if this theory of never hit ever a dog or dont have one is valid ...then SURELY the KENNEL CLUB would have made it BLATENTLY OBVIOUS ? 
it would have been stated strongly like you put it in the article on dangerous owners also ! i asked that question ! why is that article avoiding stating this supposed universal truth ?

how come so many people have not been attacked by their dogs if this were the absolute truth ? could it be the dogs accepted some level of punishment ? that the dogs actually understood even if they disliked it that it was punishment ??? not possible ?

i said to correct you...if i were to hit my dog prolonged, not just one smack yes i THINK she would become more inclined to attack me back...the fact is i do not do that...

one day she will bite me and be put down...very dramatic statement and unlikely i add...and no example of the many that should be available if that statement were an absolute truth in addition.

SOME people use varying degrees of physical punishment on their dogs. accepted fact.

I am not even going to evaluate my IDEA or GUESS of what that is we are none of us in the homes of poeple with their dogs enough to be able to do that. Only those who admit it sometimes here on a forum giving specific examples are available as examples of evidence.

There would be i suggest thousands of dogs put down for biting their owners if the case i add.

the fact physical continual punishment i agree would make a dog likely to become either more FEARFUL or more AGGRESSIVE and more likely to bite in retaliation i agree with. it is a matter of DEGREE used and accepted or understood by the dog.

my dog bares her teeth for many reasons, just in play with my other dog, many reasons...does not mean she is going to BITE ! it is dog lingo simply ! i accept that ! she has never bitten me even if i put my face up to her doing that ! she is not afraid of me generally in my view...i had a dog i rescued stray so fearful she cowered continually at any movement of everyone in fear...i found her owners...she had been rescued from owner who had before continuarlly beat her yes...she did not bite me in the few days i had her ! nor her new owners i add ! nor my dogs she was with for a few days then i found her owners ! no one locally not even the dog catcher could get near her for 4 days i add ! i went up to her a day or so after she had played with my dogs in the field and she let me put her on the lead and take her home with me...i add just at that moment i got her in the car a van drew up saying he was the dog catcher and wanted me to give him the dog to take away...i refused...rescue center said i did well because strays are taken for lab experiments often like that ...he was furious with me...i said you will need to smash my car to get her because no i wont give her to you...

so i used the threat of violence as ultimate deterent meaning smashing a car is violent of course implying he might...he backed off...verbally abusing me...but that did not get the dog...only physically attacking me or my car was going to achieve that...i warned it was not without a fight...yes we were like dogs then...warning with the threat of violence...to avoid it.

the point is that beaten frequently poor dog was not aggressive to me or its new owners. ok not all...But that is why there is not absolute truth in saying even in this case a severly beaten dog will bite. or in my case a very very infrequently hit for a reason the dog understands reason. some dogs beaten severely can end up biting i agree out of fear or whatever. some dogs beaten severely just remain timid and never bite ! so that disproves an absolute statement clamiing all dogs beaten at all just mildly even are likely to bite ! and in my specific case a few hits for to me made understood to dog reasons is hardly a high risk case as you seem to wish to suggest and others like you ! you refuse to accept evidence of dogs like the one example i give being even proof of that theory being wrong ! that dog just is never going to bite ANYONE i dare even suggest ! i was a sTRANGER to her ! so i dont make GENERALISATIONS for ALL DOGS as simply as i see you doing here ! but i say GENERALLY it is more DANGEROUS for a STRANGER if a dog is fearful for biting yes ! so this EXTREME yes case disproves even my generalisation even though i add i say it is a GENERALISATION not the whole truth applicable in every case as not all dogs bite strangers but many i say generalising will faced with violence threat.

you have no time for me you write...well thanks for the time given neverthelss and excuse me not that i dont have time for you but i have to do some other things right now but answered your post...with i hope things to reconsider yes...

ps i have a video of this stray dog...in case needed...but i have taken a few stray dogs in and dont see need to put another video up here the ones i thought helpful of my animals and herd got no comments so not wasting my time on a stray dog one to prove my statements made about her here.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> I will reply to this post before having to go off for other things today...
> 
> i have no business owning a dog if i ever hit it...is what i read...
> 
> ...


The bolded bit because sadly as a society we don't value dogs and other animals as much as we value human life 

I don't think we should hit our dogs, if we set out with that intention, to use physical punishment as a means to control them, then no I don't think we should be allowed to own a dog but as I say society doesn't see fit to protect dogs in this way


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

Feja, or a mod... Can you please edit your post above. The way it's quoted makes it hard to see who's saying what, and I don't particularly want to be credited with some of what is said there 



FEJA JUODAS said:


> ..........so you agree i am understanding that taking the view of a dog trainer is not advisable without evaluating it personally before accepting anything said !


I think you should consider the views of anyone you choose to consider. Though in your case, I might start with someone who's dog doesn't snarl at them.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> so what is wrong with saying i dont accept new views totally contradicting or putting a new theory out there by a dogexpert before considering it better ? the fact some here adhered to the latest article of a dogexpert is my point, that is just one view but then suggestions were made that is the ONLY view of modern dogexperts ! which is not the case i repeat since there are still different views around..calling them OLD views is a matter of opinion...


But we're not considering just one view  Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell, Roger Abrantes, Pat Miller, Trish King, Nicole Wilde, Suzanne Clothier, Nicholas Dodman, Drayton Michaels, etc., etc., etc. Pretty much the entire dog training world has dismissed the dominance theory as an effective way for humans to interact with dogs.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> your suggestion about LONG LINE i agree with ! for the herding instinct test ! but that is NOT STANDARD PRACTICE by the experts !


Forgive me if I don't put a whole lot of stock (har har at the pun) in your knowledge of standard practice, given that you seem to think that rejecting dominance theory is new and unusual....



FEJA JUODAS said:


> in my case in 6 months of being alone with loose dogs and animals i did not need a long leash...i control my dogs with recall easily ...but 3 times in those 6 months which is very very few times i had to use force to punish them and others in herding did that in 3 days many more times just in training i repeat so your view is not correctly directed to me but to the general herding expert trainers out there i suggest again.


I'm sorry but if that's you in the video telling your dogs to "viens ici maintenant" over and over and over again while the dog continues to ignore you, I'd say that you do NOT control your dogs with recall easily. 
So yes, I see *why* you feel you have to use force, your dogs don't listen to you, so you feel you have no choice. But that's not because force is necessary in some cases, it's just that your training is generally ineffective. Sorry 



FEJA JUODAS said:


> ...........i dont understand this point...will look at other thread tonight...pulling a dog who got away from me off a sheep...dont understand...i didnt pull my dogs off sheep... a trainer used a long whip stick to direct and discourage if he saw the dog any dog grab a sheep...i add HIS dog did grab sheep nip bite them ....that is part of sheepdog work...yes sheepdogs do bite the rumps...ankles...noses even of the animals and no one is going to tell me that is easy to control without trial and error and mistakes being made until bite control is achieved...i am not in that case...i am in the refusal point blank of any seizure of goat or sheep mode....and am not considering the acceptable level of seizure that yes in time WHEN I GO FOR SHEEP HERDING TRAINING i will learn about from a shepherd...who will no doubt use a stick whip as deterent also and i just hope and expect will not be needed much at all on my dogs due to having with me come to understanding with only 3 instances of needing any physical restraint on them to manage so far ! that from what i have seen is very very little compared to many.


Sorry, my bad, I thought I had replied to the force question on this thread, but it was on the other one. I'll just c&p it here:


ouesi said:


> Hi, I'm not really sure what you're asking?
> 
> Why is it advised to not use physical punishment?
> In simple terms, because violence begets violence.
> ...


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> so why does the DANGEROUS DOGS ADVICE article in another thread not categorically state this also ??? why is that statement not in ALL literature about dogs from sellers rescues etc ???
> 
> why is there not a kennel club policy statement saying that also ?





GingerRogers said:


> The bolded bit because sadly as a society we don't value dogs and other animals as much as we value human life


Personally I thought it was for the same reason as you arent routinely told not to beat your toddler when you drop them off at playschool! It is just assumed that you arent going to get a dog then whack the crap out of it!!
Maybe its a cultural thing but in this country being seen hitting your dog excessively will get you reported to the RSPCA or police and if there is video evidence you will probably be charged with cruelty.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Personally I thought it was for the same reason as you arent routinely told not to beat your toddler when you drop them off at playschool! It is just assumed that you arent going to get a dog then whack the crap out of it!!
> Maybe its a cultural thing but in this country being seen hitting your dog *excessively *will get you reported to the RSPCA or police and if there is video evidence you will probably be charged with cruelty.


Yeah 'excessively' will but the odd lump about the head or boot to the guts because the stupid thing didn't read your mind is sadly acceptable to many people


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> how come so many people have not been attacked by their dogs if this were the absolute truth ? could it be the dogs accepted some level of punishment ? that the dogs actually understood even if they disliked it that it was punishment ??? not possible ?


Of course dogs accept punishment, often ridiculous levels of punishment. But just because we *can* punish a dog without the dog retaliating doesn't mean we *should*!! What kind of an argument is that?! "It's okay that I hit my wife, she doesn't hit back!"ut: ut:

I can't believe I'm even trying to justify why it's not okay to hit a dog... :blink:
You would think that would be self-evident!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> I will reply to this post before having to go off for other things today...
> 
> i have no business owning a dog if i ever hit it...is what i read...
> 
> ...


I thought the Kennel Club had made it blatantly obvious, simply by talking to its readers as though they were intelligent human beings and not violent cavemen who need to express every emotion with bullying.

I didn't realise that there were people in the 21st century who needed to be specifically told that they should respect animals and not hit them. I thought it was an accepted thing. How very naive of me. Next time I see someone with a new puppy and they ask my advice, I shall be sure to tell them not to hit him just in case they don't know.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

very quckly...excuse me i will read the posts in full later in morning ...

relevatn very fast eg...i have been so engrossed by the interesting reads here i neglected the routines of my dogs ...so not surprised by behavioral probs...like ?

the eg of feja unusually being stubborn about returning into the building...

i said i of course dont hit her for things like that but defiant puling the lead ball etc did not work i used force to push and pick up the madam she likes that of course so pleasant just to end the discussion

but 2nd relevant to alpha and my behaviour eg is ..

just went out in field...feja and falcon stood intently looking at something in hedge...i went to see it was food for a cat behind wire fending...so i walk on...feja refuses to move...keeps staring at it...then starts her usual demanding doggie talk of BARKING at it...ok i approach talk to her say come on no i cant get it for you...sometimes if i lose a ball like that she indicates it to me by barking at the spot it went and knows i will get it...

anywy the point is i could not if i wanted to get this catfood from behind the fence so insisted she leave it alone with orders understood for that...

she is as stated for to me understandable reasons rather frustrated right now...i blame YOU LOT for keeping me fascinated online...so being very active with habits dogs behavour changes if those change...i dont think you will disagree with that statememnt


very quick fast must get on....anyway FEJA ESCALATES her barking ...to IN MY FACE ...this to her is unusual...i ALWAYS get her ball if she point to it and barks and so now i am refusing something new to her she wants...FOOD !

i talk and say NO NO etc and feja as usual needs to ESCALATE to her usual i call it TANTRUM of showing me her teeth, growling; whining juming around not at me ok but just playing up....

i cant just walk off she will go bark mad and stand there for hours i know...she is persistent...and there are flats there...people...so i have to do something to get her off her obsession and demands...

i order her again to stop it and pull a bit her collar show her the lead as a threat...falcon by now has come back and kicked in again to join in feja demands but he is easier to handle obeys orders easier...so i end up using very very stern voice and DEMANDING feja come to heel and walk away...

ok she did and dont tell me i should haive had a ball or treat to distract her otherwise please i cant like most people be carrying balls treats everywhere all the time with me just to entice discuss my dog away ....and feja will not react to another treat i add she INSISTS on the object she has in mind and focused on

so...I in my view ASSERTED my ALPHA role to her in a yes STERN VOICE that has maybe a hint of a threat in it because emotions of a human or dog owner or just feja are understood from habit of knowing me....the tone of my voice even if quiet can send the message...THAT IS ENOUGH OR ELSE ! my ¨PATIENCE is OVER !

thinking of that phrase used towards me here in a post...so i used that TONE and MEANING to FEJA yes ! just as it was used to me here i add in my view as those were the words...taken as a warning to me that if i do not desist in my views then i am a write off...


so what is so different to doing that to feja ? did i not assert my alpha status with her demanding she leave the dratted catfood spotted alone to follow me ?

i add she is not usually interested in food that much when out ! but is i think frustrated as less than normal activities with me being online so much recently so is acting out of caracter but...her SNARLING is NOT SERIOUS ! it is just TALKING to me ! i am not a dog language person no but she is 3 years old each dog has its ways of communicating and no it is not a threat to bite me but talking to my mind and if i raised my hand telling her she was going to get a whack she would be surprised...i dont need to she is not going to bite but i dont put up with it for long as I AM ALPHA feja is the messsage sent after pandering to her need to express herself about whatever behind the fence she wants and normally gets from me if a ball like that !

hilarous...i love my feja...she is a real caracter...all dogs have their own...


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Even if I didn't know it before, my latest, Jack, has taught me very clearly never to smack a dog.

He came to us as a bundle of nerves. Even raised voices would have him running a mile. My husband was mucking about only recently putting the washing up away, doing a mock cave man roar and play feinted towards him with a frying pan and Jack yelped really loudly and scarpered. OH is nervous about even touching a frying pan now and feels absolutely awful, as obviously he had no intention of hurting Jack. Just one of those silly mock fight games that any of one of our previously, well-adjusted dogs would have happily joined in with. However, I think it just points to the fact that Jack came from an abusive home.

Despite never having experienced a raised hand/rolled up newspaper/lead etc etc in the 8 years he's lived with us, his initial reaction to anything new/loud is fear. And he bares his teeth when he's scared.

Dogs are far more likely to be aggressive if they're scared. And far more likely to be scared if you try and dominate them.

Just think how long it can take to repair the damage caused if you frighten a dog. They have very, very, long memories...


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Personally I absolutely do NOT agree that the problem relates to who hits the dog, the degree of force used, or the frequency. I believe hitting is wrong. Period.
Of course, there is a world of difference between a smack by hand and a whack with a whip or stick - but neither are acceptable in my opinion. And in my experience both the punisher and the punished become immune to the effects of punishment. Dogs may respond to a light smack initially, or in certain circumstances, but will ignore it in others. Their threshold may increase, so more force becomees necessary. Equally, most people I know struggle to maintain their temper and minimise force. I've known a few people who initially decided only to give a "light tap on the nose" who later moved on to belting the dog full force across the face with a lead or shoe. 
I think it is a slippery slope that is best avoided.

Would I use brute force in an emergency situation, say to save an animals life? Yes, of course I would. But this would only be the force necessary to save the animal - not simply lashing out under the pretext of "punishment" and I certainly wouldn't consider it as a means of training. I should add, by using force I mean pulling the dog away or similar - NOT hitting it!

I believe hitting dogs is largely ineffective as a training method. Of course it can appear to work, in the sense it may stop a behaviour. However, it has a high risk of causing further problems (eg aggression or avoidance behaviours); and may cause learned helplessness or otherwise imepede learning, which is counterproductive. Direct physical punishment also has the problem that the dog may simply learn when it is "safe" or "unsafe" to perform the same behaviour. For example, the dog may stop doing that behaviour when you are present, but continue to do so if you are out of sight. 

In answer to your question what would I do if a dog siezed a sheep 500 yards away....

Well for a start I wouldn't be able to hit the dog at that distance even if I wanted to, so I'm not sure of the point of the question?

I do NOT agree with putting untrained dogs in with livestock, then punishing them for not knowing how we want them to behave. That is setting the dog up to fail - you put the dog in a position where you know it will mess up just so you can hit it. Awful!

Would I yell / whistle to get the dog back? Yes of course. If that doesn't work? Get over there asap and get the dog off, by force if necessary. But I would not be whipping the dog, and again I would not deliberately put the dog in that position in the first place.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> ok she did and dont tell me i should haive had a ball or treat to distract her otherwise please i cant like most people be carrying balls treats everywhere all the time with me just to entice discuss my dog away ....and feja will not react to another treat i add she INSISTS on the object she has in mind and focused on


Cat food is more interesting to your dog than you are.

It's an entirely different relationship to the one I have with my dog. I am more interesting to her than just about anything, well anything we've met so far. If I offer to interact with her, she'll drop what she's doing straight away and wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of cat food, even if it was in a bowl in front of her and wasn't cat food, was a nice rump steak. 

Now you could say that I'm just lucky and you could say that's just what collies are like, but nevertheless I've spent the last 2 years and ongoing making myself more interesting to my dog than anything else in the world. Maybe you could try it instead of bullying her into submission? 

Up to you of course. It could be an entirely different social view in France to what it is generally on petforums and maybe you don't see the need to change anything if it's how everyone behaves where you are. I wouldn't move to France anyway, not if my dog wouldn't be allowed off lead and I know I wouldn't be allowed to trim my horses' feet, so I'm stuck here. :biggrin5:

Worth your considering what people are saying here though I think. Especially if your dog is snarling and barking in your face. Not good. At least keep your face out of hers. :yesnod:


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> very quckly...excuse me i will read the posts in full later in morning ...
> 
> relevatn very fast eg...i have been so engrossed by the interesting reads here i neglected the routines of my dogs ...so not surprised by behavioral probs...like ?
> 
> ...


im not sure I quite understand the situation , if you hadn't made her scared of you by hitting her and being aggressive then im sure you could have easily just clipped her lead on and led her away from the cat food or whateversounds like she reacted how she did because she is fearful of you ...it doent mean you are 'the alpha' it means she wants to avoid getting a smack 
and sorry I don't understand why cant you carry a treat or a toy ?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

All I can say is force and aggression will be reacted to with force and aggression! You can blame your dog, it's breed, it's breeding until the day is done simple thing is if your life with your dog is a daily battle and you feel the need to have to show your dog your boss because other wise it will be boss and rule your house and life number one your training your dog wrong, number two your in the wrong not your dog, number three your doing it wrong not your dog, your failing things not your dog and four please go see a Doctor because if you think your dog sits up at night planning world domination you really are in need of a bit of help!!!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

i have read comments on it seems 4 pages relating to my posts...

i see no positive words whatsoever is my first impression and view

i see all negative words is my first impression and view

having provided early days and later days videos to show not training i was alone untrained as made clear a few hours during the 20 other instinct test learning to pass other people on is not training...so it was as already stated not training. i provided also LATER videos of later success to my mind in herding orders given and followed and instincts of dogs followed. no comment was made on the later evidence.

the only thing i see that i gave opinion on that is agreed is the pointlessness of the Instinct Herding Test itself which as stated is in my view unnecessary sheep suffering and a waste of time for dogs never intending to do real herding work of their own herds.

Since i criticised that and eventually got agreement to this that is one positive, but i add that test is nothing to do with me i am not a trainer and it was not training.

Feja passed that test. i presented the video of her doing the test in part filmed, there was no violence used in that clip feja was calm and performed well in my view without aggression to the sheep also i add. None of these positives were mentioned about my dog, maybe in fact it was viewed negatively regarding her performance in fact seeing no comment made positively as i have just done...no aggression to the sheep...my main concern...because if she had shown aggression to the sheep i would not find her myself suitable to be a good sheepdog. i also mentioned myself praise for the little labrit in the other video people here prefered to discuss saying when the sheep was down on the ground, he did not bite or aggress it but showed interest gently ...and nothing positive was said about this aspect of the dog behaviour who as i said failed due to losing interest later i said he was very young maybe got tired, but i admired his actions when the sheep was on the ground...a good sheepdog in fact will go find the stray individual out of supposed sheepdog instincts as i was explained. So this was interesting to see in action as some dogs might aggress an animal injured down on the ground ...this being natural predator behaviour of wolves and predators generally. Feja showed no signs of being FEARFUL even if yes WARY as is natural of any stick waving around...so to me i fail to see a fearful generally dog in this video in FEJA case. Neither did she show agression intents to the sheep ! so to me those are both positives that indicate a well balanced dog not reacting in fear or agression ! which if i have anything to do with her behaviour is also therefore logically down to the relationship we have.

There were no comments made on the photos of my dogs calm in my view with our animals...i find that strange...when negative things are seen posters are fast to point them out yet here the positives are ignored ! 
The videos added of later than intial see a billy goat video that was mentioned critically where the dogs bring in a cow from afar...and goats in another video...showing to me no agression to the flock...obeying my orders to stop and go get the animals...no comments were made positively on any points of those either.

However in seeing no positive responses to that statement observation of mine...and no responses to my positive comments regarding the Feja video itself...i take it there are none to be made by posters here. 
the last specific example of this...

I told with humour how today FEJA was asking me to get her the catfood just like when the ball goes out of reach under a fence when i get it for her if she shows me where...was what i described...

i got comments back like ?

<<Catfood is more interesting to my dog than i am to her....your dog finds you more interesting than anything else...>>

<< if you hadn't made her scared of you by hitting her and being aggressive then im sure you could have easily just clipped her lead on and led her away from the cat food or whatever…sounds like she reacted how she did because she is fearful of you >>

negative comments...nothing i did had any merit it seems ! not even the humour the dog and i shared i add ! and i tried to share with you ! ...
assuming my dog is scared of me even though i see no mention of any fear in her behaviour in describing what i described...she was asking me to get her the catfood just like when the ball goes out of reach under a fence when i get it for her if she shows me where...was what i described...

i agree totally with the statement of...

<<I do NOT agree with putting untrained dogs in with livestock, then punishing them for not knowing how we want them to behave. That is setting the dog up to fail - you put the dog in a position where you know it will mess up just so you can hit it. Awful!
Would I yell / whistle to get the dog back? Yes of course. If that doesn't work? Get over there asap and get the dog off, by force if necessary. But I would not be whipping the dog, and again I would not deliberately put the dog in that position in the first place.>>

i remind you...i hit my dogs 3 TIMES in 6 MONTHS only for what i thought was agressing goats in the distance yes...my dogs were ADULTS i add not puppies...i lashed out at them and yelled etc ! now i consider that EXTREMELY FEW HITS ! extremely few ! for dogs with NO REAL TRAINING in herding ! just loose ! under yes a totaly nerd like me who has not learnt enough obedience training for dogs ! and i want it but i still say my dogs seem suitable because no i didnt need to hit them daily even weekly just a few times they maybe got overexcited and went into what is called preydrive too much !

AKPHA ROLLI? a great dane was a good amusing point lol ! i enjoyed that...and i do agree and did state i never myself did an ALPHA ROLL to my dog having seen it done once i disliked it. No matter if the theory about death or just submisson is right or wrong i add. I would not take that action on my dog it had never previously i add occured to me to do so ! obviously i missed out reading even the FIRST ALPHA ROLL books luckily hey lol !! hilarious ! sometimes missing out on reading theories means we dont put them into practice ourselves if they dont occurr to us hey ! as in my case ! never crossed my mind to push a dog onto the ground and roll it on its back ! seems a lot of effort ! i am not into that kindda effort even for cooking lol !

<<if you ever think you need to hit your dog, you have got no business owning one.>>

that is a strongly worded statement ...and ok if that is your view it is your view and i dont dispute you have strong reasons positively in mind for dogs in general making such a statement...but...and i dont take it very personally not that sensitive about things to do that even if i find it rather extreme a view ...the wording does not say PEOPLE GENERALLY it is directed at me personally...but...

that statement is NOT found in those words on the kennel club anywhere...and neither is just even a LESS STRONGLY worded statement like that made in the article i queried on the DANGEROUS OWNERS thread...
now telling me as i think i saw that it is OBVIOUS it is implied by just advising AVOIDING MENTION of using PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT is a NOT GOOD ENOUGH ANSWER i dare say back to that !

if that article on the DANGEROUS OWNERS thread or the kennel club cannot bring themselves to state ...DO NOT PUNISH DOGS PHYSICALLY AT ALL or WE ADVISE NOT TO USE ANY PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT ON YOUR DOGS AT ALL ...that is avoiding a statement that you make here much more strongly claiming it is an absolute truth as policy !

Now much as i agree that i need help and training that i was unable to date to get for reasons explained, i do not feel that making absolute statements on the effects of all physical punishement...And i add verbal punishment not just hitting...now i dare say that *the VIEW of what is VIOLENCE to a dog in shouting or not is different to each individual dog also*...so one cannot GENERALISE that shouting is violent unless it makes the dog fearful or agressive i suggest...SHOUTING does not make my dogs afraid of me alone it depends on my tone what my emotions are in my voice...and i am not imagining this...and out there in the fields shouting was needed of course ! so they are used to it ! and living with me also used to interpreting my mood and strength of feeling or intent in my tone of voice ! ...violence is not a simple thing to define in this area of dog training...it is not that simple to say verbal reprimands or physical slight slap or one offs as i described are so violent or even remotely violent enough to have short medium or longterm effects on a dog ! without including mention of the degree frequency and circumstances of what was involved when making absolute extreme statements very reasonable no.

Additionally, i suggest making ABSOLUTE STRONG STATEMENTS of a NEGATIVE and PERSONALLY CRITICAL nature easy to perceive as NEGATIVE and AGGRESSIVE even ! hilarious that ! why ? because if as seems to be the case those making those statements are advising NOT being AGGRESSIVE to achieve results with a dog...i find it HILARIOUS that the same people think those ways of expression are going to get results with HUMANS ! hilarious yes ! i see in those methods in fact use of ALPHA status of those humans ! please share the LAUGH on this statement of mine made if you can share the humour and see what i am trying to say...how you TELL me what to think is going to affect HOW I REACT to it ! hilarious ! but i am not oversensitve no ...and i take them like ??? Water off a ducks back to use an amusing ANIMAL expression ? not meaning i dont take ANY notice of them no but yes i read things into them...negatively...critical of me...and not in my view BALANCED evaluation of me...and if i am perceive as a DANGEROUS DOG OWNER as implied by words like i should not own one...then i perceive in return ORDERING type people who react to opposing views with aggression to me ! the very thing they are advising against regarding me or anyone with dogs ! so it seems inconsistent to me to think it is ok to be verbally aggressive to a human but not a dog and think it will get positive results easily ! i am not that easy no ! just like my dog Feja ! present me too OFTEN with perceived violent aggression and i MAY bite back or i MAY run away or i MAY just sidestep it to avoid it and attack back or reply back in either the SAME or DIFFERENT manner...i am not so different to Feja my dog in that i do not think no. BUT SHE IS A DOG ! and I AM A HUMAN so I need to be IN CHARGE of HER yes !

*What do i consider as AGGRESSIVE and disagree with doing therefore that is important to me in my view ?* i give examples...

I consider for example IGNORING my dogs as punishment to them...it is not physical violence ! or verbal ! but it affects them more than those i dare say as punishment ! now that to me does not justify as SOME dog experts have advised using IGNORING my dogs as a form of punishment no ! i read stuff on that and thought ok i agree it will upset them i am sure so i agree that...but I DONT USE that form of punishment no ! i REFUSE to IGNORE my dogs ! i try and communicate AT ONCE ASAP to make them understand or try to understand ! if i am in a bad mood even i dont IGNORE them ! i make an effort ! because that to me is what i would describe as CRUEL to them. I would not be hitting them no if i ignored them ! and i disliked that advice of dog experts i repeat. i refuse to use it never have. IF MY DOG wants my attention i give it or communicate to it that no i am busy ! if it insists...i insist...and we have that kindda discussion yes but NOT FOR TOO LONG NO ! lol !

Now i post this reply before retiring to um unfinished due to interest in this forum taking my attention not only away from my dogs today again but my other duties ! now i need to EXPLAIN that to my dogs ? lol !!!! they are pretty patient but frustrated at missing out their yes habitual massive interactions outside with me ! not a good thing to have even maybe in their minds PUNISHED them by doing so...i dont know what is in the mind of a dog no no more than anyone else does i add...but i do feel...frustrating my dogs by not doing enough out there with them today alone has upset them yes ! and they may see that as PUNISHEMENT ! which is not my intention...i dont CRATE i dont SHUT MY DOGS AWAY from me i dont IGNORE them all those advices given by dog experts to punish not using physical hits...Well to me...a smack or lash 3 times in six months is far far less damaging a punishment to my dogs than all the other things i listed that some advise and i have never done.

toilet train by shutting in crate for the night so pup wont want to pee in its sleeping area ! 
the PERFECT PUPPY advised that i believe if i recall rightly if not culture clash ! i was APPALLED ! 
to STRESS my pup ! just because i or a dog owner was too lazy to get up and let it out? i think there are many forms of CRUELTY yes ! and that is one of them !

IF that is using ALPHA or DOMINENT theory as many forms of punishment i say it is !

....................

I this morning just went back on google...

I will read to see what posts i missed and need to read again here...just because negative does not mean i am not reading them...i am trying to be openminded of course..otherwise i would nto be on this forum !

shepherdanddog.co.uk - shepherdanddog Resources and Information. infor missing not webpage...not much info is on the web regarding herding as i stated and is the case ! shepherds are not big internet users lol !!! i was out in the fields myself not on internet looking for whistles obviously ! only NOW with time to THINK and REVIEW and PLAN do i come here asking for things like whistles for long distance recall and control aids etc !!! lol yes !

The fact the website selling shepherd WHIPS is a USA website implying shepherds in the USA as well as FRANCe use them does not mean the UK does not have or use this TOOL of a SHEPHERD i add....so i see ok possible cultural country slight differences possible like colours etc in things yes ! but i see generally NO REASON why a SHEPHERD in the USA or FRANCE or GB would be essentially very different in their methods ! no ! i dont think so ! and there is no evidence of that given to date just views based on chats...and generalisations made...so i discount any NATIONALISTIC criticisms specific to any individual country. my criticism of the sheep herding INSTINCT test is of course a France issue but FCI issue so not only FRANCE if other countries have this TEST need for showsdogs i add...so that is an international issue also not a country specific issue and GB is NOT part of the FCI of course but additionally does NOT have in the kennel club rules a need for this INSTINCT TEST to be done for showdogs i learnt here on this forum ! which is why it was news to people from the UK here...and i am pleased you seem to share my view of the TEST for SHOWDOGS irrelevance in principle ! as well as methods even if a distraction from the thread title here of ALPHA myth.

Utility Shepherds Crooks
"these hickory shepherds staffs can really take a beating, and the crook end easily catches animal around the neck"

Train a Sheepdog Border Collie Herding Stock Dog Training to Fetch Sheep Farm Ranch or Sheepdog Trials

UK WEBSITE OF SHEEPDOGS ! found !!! lol ! great some good reading of general here...maybe some videos possible !!! useful !

the DEGREE of yelling or correction is is stated as i believe and have practised with my dogs the issue...

"Dogs need to be corrected during their training but it's important to note that just as we humans hate being bellowed at all the time, so does a dog"

so to counter suggestions made here that is is EASY even taking a WITH PARENTS EXAMPLE dog to control and achieve results..no ! it is VERY DIFFICULT even with those PERFECT SITUATION puppies !

"To train a sheepdog from a puppy is a long process and will take you through various stages from euphoria to utter despair"

*UTTER DESPAIR !* so no it is not a case of saying you get the dog obedient use a long leash first and then find hey presto the dog is safe loose with the sheep at once or even not capable of disobeying occasionally afterwards !

*strewth...reading this i think HOW PLEASE i am that i only had 3 moments in 6 months of not DESPAIR but momentary panic yes with my dogs loose out there with my herd !*...the rest of my post reply to come after this one...


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

..."everyone's approach to training is different - and every dog's different"
it does NOT state any approach is WRONG ! it does NOT mention not using ANY physical corretion at all it implies using controlled REASONABLE yelling or aggression towards the dog !

*and most important of all ? relating to the ALPHA myth discounted here in this thread ?

link of previous website a UK website given in previous post...

"To form this bond isn't so difficult if you're kind and consistent whilst leaving your dog in no doubt who's the boss"*

this is a UK SHEPHERD WEBSITE i add ! 

THE BOSS ! the HUMAN implied here NOT THE DOG ! NO DOUBT about that is stated in strong terms ! NO DOUBT about WHO IS THE BOSS !
this discounts the notion that the ALPHA notion is a myth to me reading this and is therefore consistent with my current view that ALPHA is a status yes theory that DOGS need and recognise accepting a human as the ALPHA.
The issues around HOW a human achieves the ALPHA position with his or her dog is another subject matter...HOW TO BECOME A PERCEIVED BY YOUR DOG ALPHA i suggest is another matter...that yes involves consideration of how much FORCE, TREATS or other training methods are used and to what extent in what circumstances.

*IN MODERATION...all things in moderation as a general principle...*i moderation i am in favour of controlled limited preferably infrequent exceptional physical punishment of a dog in specific circumstances.
I do not consider PHYSICAL hits or punishment the ONLY PUNISHMENT a dog or any living creature including humans recognises as punishment. i am AGAINST what i personally consider CRUELTY of keeping a dog in a crate overnight to prevent it peeing in the house as it in my view is stressful to the dog who does NOT based on my own limited to my dogs experience WANT to pee in the house so will hold back a long time suffering from not being able to pee !

That is CRUEL to me even if it achieves teaching the dog to be house trained.
I do NOT IGNORE my dogs...if they are irritating me for attention or have done something wrong no i dont turn my back on them, lock them in a separate room, ignore them...all things that are RECOMMENDED by DOG BOOKS in many places...the PERFECT PUPPY, THE CULTURE CLASH amoungst others...i see that as CRUEL yes. I address them communicate if i do not want to be disturbed by their demand to play ball or whatever and INSIST ! and if that means pushing them away, physical limited force i add...then i do that yes.

I consider TEASING a dog holding TREATS or its BALL away from it pretending to throw or give it and then withholding it CRUEL. This i add is also a factor that could lead the dog to become aggressive done too long. And do not suggest i TEST the LIMIT of that about to happen to train my dogs to ACCEPT TEASING like that no ! i REFUSE to do that...if a child playing with my dog starts TEASING it withholding the ball..i intervene and instruct the child to stop doing that...warn the child the dog may bite to get the ball ... whether the dog is likely to or not i add...and if the child REFUSES to follow my advice orders ....then i STOP THE GAME ! it is MY dog, it is the DOGS BALL ok many dispute this assertion saying i need to teach my dog the ball BELONGS TO ME ! the ALPHA ! i have NOT followed this advice no. I allow my dogs to believe yes the BALL IS THEIR BALL !

oh i add such a nice amusing event in the vet the other day...my BALL MAD Feja took her ball to another dog in the vets waiting with owner....Feja likes to PUT THE BALL down in front of other dogs humans whatever as an invitation to play !!! lol !!! so i see in that NO problem with letting feja see the ball as HER ball, she is not aggressive to not allow others to take it no and in fact OFFERS it to other dogs even !!! hilarious ! i add the other dog was timid fearful in the vets as many dogs are and was NOT interested in the ball and confused ! i spoke to feja to back off ! no issue. but it was funny.
Now i hope you enjoy some of the facts i put here, it is good to see events experiences people have with their dogs and see what we perceive issues good and bad in them.

I do hold to the ALPHA notion be it a MYTH or not....i add smiling i LIKE FAIRYTALES ! my DOG is called BLACK FAIRY in fact ! lol ! i like dreams...hopes...ideals...FAIRYTALES CAN COME TRUE i always say in fact !
I hold to the ALPHA notion because i believe most of all that a dog is like a gun yes. Out of control, thinking IT the DOG is in charge it is dangerous.
I want and hope other people make it clear to their dogs that THE OWNER IS IN CHARGE ! call that ALPHA or just IN CHARGE meaning I GIVE THE ORDERS ! you the dog do NOT follow instinct ideas of your own or anything IF I SAY NO to it ! and achieving that is of course not easy !

HOW we achieve it is a DIFFERENT subject to ALPHA it is about METHODS of TRAINING yes...that an ALPHA human should use to persuade a dog to obey or have certain wished for behaviours. and THOSE are MANY and COMPLEX but first and foremost...the dog must regard me the owner as having ultimate authority.

*ps for those of ALL of us who DREAM and love the image of the SHEEPDOG that were so numerous in past centuries...i share a LOVELY account of the old days...
Tending the Flock - Herding on the Web*
i quote just one line of this with lovely pictures account...

"How can a shepherd do all that ? 
A. By the aid of his whip, his crook, and his dogs; "

and i say it does NOT say EXCESSIVE FORCE or EXCESSIVE USE of the whip...but it implies OCCASIONALLY yes it is used. Then and now. and it is the DEGREE of use that is only obviously to me in question. and i agree LIMITED use is the best way. LIMITED ! and i did nothing in 6 months alone with untrained dogs and loose no fences animals that could have gored my dogs much easier than a sheep without such huge horns and massive hooves and feet of the cows...and not once did my dogs get gored. for all my inexperience, and i credit them with the instincts needed to avoid that as well as the instincts of the herd animals. ( i correct a word i wrote wrong in describing the boasting of some in the instinct herding test that the dog which to me was too aggressive to the sheep was butted by a billy goat i think i wrote ..i meant RAM a MALE SHEEP...sheep used in the herding instinct test are sheep used to be pushed around by sheepdgos for sure....if those dogs had been faced with my BARBAROSSA BILLY GOAT horns as seen in the pictures on my website shown !!! my my !!! those dogs would be DEAD or AT THE VETS with serious injuries if they had been like that in the TEST or later training not that any dogs do further training it is just of course for showdog title status they do that test) my dogs even in the EARLY MEET THE GOAT and BULLS etc for FIRST TIME video shown here did NOT AGRESS but yes were a bit difficult to get to back off ...that was the early meet the goat close up vid and LATER videos showed FALCON and FEJA following my orders calmly obeying and STOP order obeyed easily as well as recall. WE ARE NOT PERFECT NO ! we improved ! and need to improve more for sure !

it was for sure...to use a FRENCH expression..LAISSER FAIRE to a huge degree out there ! and i intervened only in crisis moments that were few...and i made even an admited MISTAKE in perceving aggression by my dogs to a kid goat feja actually FOUND for me in the grass yelling at her in that instance...thinking like the man who shot his dog seeing blood by a cot in error as the dog had killed a WOLF not the baby had been defending it...i like that man made a WRONG ASSUMPTION that my dogs had agressed simply a kid goat stressed as lost away from the herd in the tall grass. We all make such mistakes, occasionally, and i was so impressed...my feja that yes does not hesitate to talk to me with teeth and can be agitated...in all my extreme yelling at that moment SAT down in fact calm and unafraid of me just waiting for me to pick the kid goat up and see...untouched...the dogs had not upset it no. Feja UNDERSTOOD i wanted to find it in fact, found it for me and just waited there calmly accepting and understanding i was confused and angry but would calm down once i inspected the kid goat.

Falcon RAN i add laughing ! he ran away yes more SENSITIVE than feja to any yelling at him...but always 1 of my 2 dogs stays by me i notice...something i do not understand...often 1 dog will go on patrol so to speak and the other stays by me. It varies, generally it is Feja who stays by me more than Falcon who is more of a WANDERER maybe due to being male but seems a very SENTINEL type dog to me not fully understanding of course...males hey...i have a thing about that i admit...another subject...male dog issues lol !


I hope i have explained as well as i can some of the issues in the posts read here, if i missed some excuse me...much has been written, and i try and read it all yes. I have a view on the thread title ALPHA MYTH ? of course...and i reconsidered it reading things posted here...and i obviously am sticking to it for myself...for reasons given...saying i believe it to be the BASIS yes of understanding for all other needed training needed for our dogs generally. 
I do say however that even if not agreeing ALPHA is a myth the issues around TRAINING can still be discussed with benefit as to METHODS used. TRAINING is not just a case of saying or thinking..I AM BOSS so the dog will do what i want if it knows that ! of course not ! being the BOSS or ALPHA does not mean you are going to GET RESULTS if you use the wrong methods ! which can vary in degree and method according to each individual dog in my view.


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## purpleskyes (May 24, 2012)

I don't know if anyone seen my thread a few months back about the row I had with my OH father about training our dog. His view was that we weren't strict enough and our dog should be afraid of us and should know we are the pack leaders. They also live in France so maybe that is there general views toward dog training. 

I don't believe in the alpha myth at all, he is allowed on my bed, he is allowed on the sofa. He eats when he is hungry which could be before or after us it really doesn't matter. He is our dog that we love and he is part of the family.


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

<<I do NOT agree with putting untrained dogs in with livestock, then punishing them for not knowing how we want them to behave. That is setting the dog up

you say you agree with the above statement of not putting your untrained dog in with live stock........may I remind you that is exactly what YOU did!!! You seemed very pleased with yourself after saying you got on the 3 day dog abuse course, sorry my mistake, herding instinct course, you happily allowed your dog loose on some sheep, sheep it had ever met.......you do realise its a natural instinct for a dog to chase?? So by allowing them loose with livestock you are intact encouraging that instinct not the herding?....training a dog to herd takes a lot more than just letting them loose with some petrified sheep and hoping for the best, whatever moron set up that herding test clearly likes to see animals suffer!!!! 

i remind you...i hit my dogs 3 TIMES in 6 MONTHS only for what i thought was agressing goats in the distance yes...my dogs were ADULTS i add not puppies...i lashed out at them and yelled etc ! now i consider that EXTREMELY FEW HITS ! extremely few ! for dogs with NO REAL TRAINING in herding ! just loose ! under yes a totaly nerd like me who has not learnt enough obedience training for dogs ! and i want it but i still say my dogs seem suitable because no i didnt need to hit them daily even weekly just a few times they maybe got overexcited and went into what is called preydrive too much ! fail -

hitting your dogs at all it unnecessary, YOU set them up to fail from the word go then think its your god given right to beat the poor animals because you can't be arsed to train them, you're lazy, and your a bully!!!!!! The fact that you think it's ok to beat them is disgusting!!!! I don't care what part of the world you stay in....common sense tells you that you shouldn't be hitting an animal.....or letting anyone else hit it for you, your deluded if you think that your dogs get any enjoyment from your means of communication with them, they sound like they have a awful life with you.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

One day you'll hit your dog and your dog will not be able to cope with it any longer and will bite you.

Then what'll you do.....? Hit it harder?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> One day you'll hit your dog and your dog will not be able to cope with it any longer and will bite you.
> 
> Then what'll you do.....? Hit it harder?


Sadly some dogs, like people, just put up with it and withdraw into themselves-it wouldn't necessarily end in a bite


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> One day you'll hit your dog and your dog will not be able to cope with it any longer and will bite you.
> 
> Then what'll you do.....? Hit it harder?


That will be when she screams it is a dangerous dog and has it put to sleep, declaring no doubt that there was something wrong with it.

Feja, I cannot plough through your tediously long posts to quote the bits I want to address, but two things stick in my mind. You have seen nor mentioned no sign of fear in your dogs, yet they have bared their teeth and growled at you. What would you call that then? Sounds like fear to me.

You still think the Kennel Club should state my own view, for some reason, that anyone who thinks they need to hit their dog has got no business having one. I don't understand that at all. Why should the Kennel Club quote my view? It is just my view, as I said in the beginning.

You say you have hit your dogs "only" three times in six months, and you think that is not much? My last dog was 14 when I lost him and was never hit in those fourteen years. My Ferdie has been smacked once, when he jumped up and took a chunk out of my face and I lashed out in anger. He was only three months then, a giant puppy, and it bloody hurt. Never since, and never again. And I didn't think it was a good way to train him; I felt guilty for days.

My Diva I have had for 18 months and no way would I hit her either. Three times in six months? Sounds like abuse to me.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> *and most important of all ? relating to the ALPHA myth discounted here in this thread ?
> 
> link of previous website a UK website given in previous post...
> 
> ...


You are misunderstanding the information. And this is a common cause of needless arguments on this forum. To be fair the phrase "leaving your dog in no doubt" can be interpreted in different ways. One way might be to hit him if he gets it wrong. Another way might be to redo the exercise until he gets it right. Another way might be to redo the exercise until you get it right 

Everyone is the boss in their own household whether they like the use of the term or not. But it's not what you are that counts it's how you got there. If you are a brutal dictator then the only thing you can be sure of is that at some time the revolution will come.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I roll mine all the time. 


They love tummy rubs!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> You are misunderstanding the information. And this is a common cause of needless arguments on this forum. To be fair the phrase "leaving your dog in no doubt" can be interpreted in different ways. One way might be to hit him if he gets it wrong. Another way might be to redo the exercise until he gets it right. Another way might be to redo the exercise until you get it right
> 
> Everyone is the boss in their own household whether they like the use of the term or not. But it's not what you are that counts it's how you got there. If you are a brutal dictator then the only thing you can be sure of is that at some time the revolution will come.


The website quoted (sorry Feja, working through your posts is a bit much for my tired old brain), makes it very clear that in the author's opinion, being the boss involves gaining your dog's respect and trust, and that he does not approve in any way of using methods that create fear for the dog....in the context of the blog the quote above came from, "leaving your dog in no doubt" really cannot be interpreted as allowing for hitting your dog!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think you are putting far too much faith in websites. Just because something is on the internet and says that the Pack Leader theory is true, does not mean that it is. I can find websites which tell me that the holocaust never happened. They even give facts, dates and evidence to prove their point.

Would you blindly follow those websites as well, simply because they are on the internet?

There are others which declare all sorts of rubbish that logical people would dismiss, but when it comes to dogs for some reason people want to believe whatever they read.

I have owned dogs for thirty years and never even considered that there was a method or system to training them. I just teach them with lots of fuss and praise mostly, and it works fine. Ferdie is the first dog I have had who has been trained with treats, and that is mostly because he is the most stubborn dog I have ever had.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> You are misunderstanding the information. And this is a common cause of needless arguments on this forum. To be fair the phrase "leaving your dog in no doubt" can be interpreted in different ways. One way might be to hit him if he gets it wrong. Another way might be to redo the exercise until he gets it right. Another way might be to redo the exercise until you get it right
> 
> Everyone is the boss in their own household whether they like the use of the term or not. But it's not what you are that counts it's how you got there. If you are a brutal dictator then the only thing you can be sure of is that at some time the revolution will come.


neither i nor the article mention the word physical punishment or even the word punishement...that is not the point made...the point being made is that the human not the boss is the boss...

and you also agree that the phrase can be interpreted to some as meaning any means of exercising control is ok....but it does not say that...later there is talk about METHOD...all the point here made is ALPHA status or BOSS status is not a discussion it is simply the HUMAN and the HUMAN has to make that understood by the dog

later in that same post of mine i end by saying that just being the BOSS is not the end of the matter to get required behaviour.....i quote...my statement...

<<TRAINING is not just a case of saying or thinking..I AM BOSS so the dog will do what i want if it knows that ! of course not ! being the BOSS or ALPHA does not mean you are going to GET RESULTS if you use the wrong methods ! which can vary in degree and method according to each individual dog in my view.>>

and as you agree there are different ways of achieving that result...so we do not disagree on that...

i think yes there is confusion often due to meanings of words...using words like BOSS, ALPHA, HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD, HEAD OF THE PACK, PACK LEADER...just a few that to me are all yes different WORDS or expressions but mean to me the same thing...the BOSS or the ALPHA !

the ALPHA MYTH expression and kick off article was to me confusing...i saw playing with words in the article...confusing me...i will re read due to this confusion but if as understood we are now saying there is NO ALPHA no BOSS just some DEMOCRACY amoungst members of a FAMILY...usings words expressions i recall from that article...then yes there is DISAGREEMENT about the ALPHA ROLE in essence...which is a SEPARATE thing to the METHOD of an alpha used i add again in different words here...

I do not believe in dogs seeing me as part of their FAMILY in the human sense...no i dont...i think they see me as the BOSS that they challenge particularly in adolescence periods but like kids of humans just to TEST THE LIMITS to find out what the boundaries are...just as dogs do in their PACKS or whatever word anyone likes to use for a group of dogs.

now FACED with CHALLENGES to authority....the ALPHA or BOSS or whatever leader has choices to make as to the METHODS possible to use to hold onto that power authority...also different words meaning to me the same thing..power...authority....

Dogs use postures, body language...snarls...growls....varying levels of light bites...

that is what i see in dogs...their body language seems to send out signals as to their status or desired status...imposing PRESENCE even if using a human term for humans having a PRESENCE felt by others from their body language or just something about them in the flesh.

IT is therefore yes 2 different to me things...

1. is there an ALPHA in the dogworld ? my reply is YES
2. What METHODS does the ALPHA use ? my reply is varied.

If there is NO ALPHA in the dogworld and the human is NOT seen as the ALPHA in POSITION and AUTHORITY to the dog...then i fail yes to understand how DEMOCRACY can be achieved with an animal that does not talk my language to be able to do that !

The fact a CAT refuses ANY authority whether from another CAT or a HUMAN owner is of course obvious to me ! but i cant get my cat to take orders from me unless i try VERY hard with food to make it associate anything possible with that ! a cat is not like a dog as a pet it does not go out easily on a lead for walks sit to order etc....it has a different mindset without knowing exactly of course what that is...it will FOLLOW if it chooses to ! a dog takes orders far more easily. ACcEPTS AUTHORITY...therefore sees another dog or human as an ALPHA yes.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

This thread has made me glad that dog ownership isnt a constant battle of power assertion between the parties... It doesnt sound very enjoyable..


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

The dog sees me as the one who organises his nice excursions to the country park, his nice walks, his nice food, his treats and his comfort. He does not see me as alpha, boss or anything else of that nature, but is smart enough to know that I am the one he should depend on.

A cat also knows these things, but is quite capable of taking himself off to live elsewhere if he thinks there is more comfort to be had in a new house. A dog might well do the same if he had the same amount of freedom as a cat, though I belive that dogs do get emotionally attached to their people, far more than cats do.

If my dog wants to go for a walk, he will pester till I take him. If he wants to go outside he will stand at the door till I get up and open it. If he wants feeding he will ask in his doggie way, till I get up and feed him.

So who is the boss? Sounds to me like he is.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Meezey said:


> All I can say is force and aggression will be reacted to with force and aggression! You can blame your dog, it's breed, it's breeding until the day is done simple thing is if your life with your dog is a daily battle and you feel the need to have to show your dog your boss because other wise it will be boss and rule your house and life number one your training your dog wrong, number two your in the wrong not your dog, number three your doing it wrong not your dog, your failing things not your dog and four please go see a Doctor because if you think your dog sits up at night planning world domination you really are in need of a bit of help!!!


oh deary me...smiling i recognise that refernce to thinking a dog sits up at night thinking and planning of things to do...um WORLD DOMINATION even you write !!! 

it is from one of the doggie books i read yes...culture clash i think without checking...but DID I SAY THAT ? did i say I THINK MY DOG IS PLANNING sitting up at night thinking of WORLD DOMINATION ???

no...i dont need to even check...i did NOT write that or anyting like it !

I LIKED that statement i add in the original book ! made me laugh ! because in essence some may suspect dogs of planning things...in revenge in human terms...i actually described in another post an example of how i dont think that at all to be the case...the case where FALCON my male always asks me to go out for a pee...by slobberchopping me then going to the door and scratching if urgent...he i stated has NEVER done that for ANY other reason when i am asleep often in bed other than GOING FOR A PEE ! if he wants to go out for say a WALK he brings me my shoes i recall writing laughing ! so i said how impressed i was that dogs do NOT have what is in human behaviour DEVIOUS BEHAVIOUR ! based on that event habit description.

Back to your accusation or let me put it milder...statement..that i think dogs are up at night thinking of plans for WORLD DOMINATION !!! lol ! it makes me smile yes as no i never thought that or implied that unless you can point me where that is implied in what i have written having just given evidence of what i wrote to the contrary.

so i thank you that if you understand now that i do not think dogs plan WORLD DOMINATION that you will agree i do not need to go SEEE A DOCTOR !!! 

you sound to me or rather to be pedantic not sound but READ to me rather emotional and extreme !!! why do i read that ? words expressions like WORLD DOMINATION ! are extreme ! i find it funny i add and dont think you need a doctor to deal with your HYPER state no !!!  are you a BORDER COLLEY for displaying such border colley breedism excuse me traits as extremism ?? 

<<force and aggression will be reacted to with force and aggression! >> your statement... i say NOT ALWAYS to that. some dogs will be FEARFUL and NOT BITE or be aggressive back...some will RUN AWAY ! some will start to PLAY to DISTRACT ! it depends on the LEVEL and UNDERSTANDING of the force used in my view and experience...and the individual dog of course ! whatever the breed ! that is my view. I agree that IF STRONG FORCE is used then the dog will be STRONGER in their varied reactions possible to use of that on it !

I think i gave the example of the border colley i found as a stray and rehomed to owners...i give it again here in this context...that dog COWERED at EVERYTHING ! all people its owners me other dogs everything. It allowed me to put a lead on it after 4 days of running away from others around here trying to catch it to save it...people even left food out for it i add...nice to do that...the owner when i found them told me the previous owner had to their knowledge beaten the dog regularly so the dog was very fearful. NOT AGGRESSIVE ! there was NO BITE to me or attempted bite to me or others or the new owners ever from that dog ! or bites or attempted bites to my dogs in the few days i had it im my home with them !

sigh that was funny...my dogs have had a few strays i picked up in the house with them like that a few days until i find the owners...they may think oh deary me here she goes again bringing in some new dog hey...well lets investigate it...play with it...Falcon disliked i add attributing BREEDISM to FALCON my dog the Westie little dog the most of the dogs i have brought in like that...why ? the dratted dog JUST WOULD NOT KEEP STILL !!!! make a Border COlley look like a placid Chow for HYPER ACTIVE ! joking i add as i add some more breedisms to make a point ! that little dog i took out for walks with my dogs i add...was HYPER getting under my dogs tangling leads all sorts ! it was extremely CLEVER i thought also ! when i got FED UP with its NON STOP running around the flat everwhere annoying my dogs who can relax better i PUT IT IN A DOG CRATE ! lol!!!  one i had bought but never used for my dogs as FEJA refuses to get in one even for dogshows the reason i bought it...but this little Westie ? well he PULLED THE ZIP to open it within 5 MINUTES ! i was AMAZED ! he worked that out so fast not due to planning just to add that in case you think he had some mental abilities behond reasonable...just very clever dog i thought ! sigh it was a nightmare that dog...MALE so not very popular with my MALE dog of course...and just NON STOP ESCAPE artist ! the reason he had STRAYED was he was an inveterate DIGGER under fences !!!  i did feel for his owner i add ! had left him with a friend for holidays and i found him in the middle of a busy road ! luckily he came to me i stopped my car and went to him as i do if i see a stray dog and no i am not AFRAID to get bitten i TAKE THAT RISK !

FEJA can be EXTREME. the one and only time she turned nasty at AGE 10 WEEKS OLD i add was i remind here when AT PUPPY CLASS of which we only did 3 they were cancelled TOWARDS HER BREEDER ! who NO NEVER HIT HER AS A PUP they brought up in the only litter for that year i add up to age 8 weeks old ! but what her breeder tried to do was TEMPT Feja with FOOD as a TREAT to learn to SIT to order saying the word at the same time as showing her the TREAT and pushing VERY SLIGHTLY as he did to ALL the other pups on her rump ! FEJA turned on him ! in FURY !

he, I, everyone was shocked ! and i explained as i WARNED him not to use food to DISTRACT her ...i know my dog...PUP even then ! FEJA focuses on ONE THING ONLY at a time ! is yes OBSESSIVE even ! if it is FOOD then no she WILL NOT LISTEN and will react badly as she did if anyting gets in her way ! now i add i taught her to SIT yes ! but NO TREATS INVOLVED !

and if i play BALL with her she is OBSESSED with the BALL i need NO OTHER TREAT to make her go get it and bring it BACK TO ME !!! she is a PEST in fact for that ! i WISH she would go play with FALCON instead sometimes ! but sHE WANTS ME ! to THROW the ball to bring it back to ME !

so i never need TREATS to teach Feja FETCH ! some dogs do ! so the METHOD to use has to be differnt...

i add FEJA is more BALL FOCUSED than my other dog FALCON...he loves to play ball too but tires of it sooner...
he has an irritating to me habit of DROPPING his ball on his travels also that FEJA does not she KEEPS the ball even returning hom in her mouth refusing to let me carry it...but FALCON can drop it and i have to ORDER him to go find it as just now as i am not going to fetch his ball to go home with HE REMEMBERS i add where he dropped it so i dont have to SEARCH for it additonally.
SOMETIMES not always Falcon needs encouragement to play ball if he has tired of it. FEJA is NEVER in that category...but i see that as just Falcon being interested more in variety than Feja.

i do not even STROKE her ! say NICE WORDS to her ! she DOES NOT NEED THEM ! would be irritated if i did i think ! not having tried ! or needing to try ! STOPPING the dratted ball game is more my challenge ! as soon as she knows i am about to put lead on her and take her home so no more ball game of course she is not pleased but tries a bit to get me to continue yes ! repeatedly telling her GAME OVER is needed ! in varying degrees of tone of voice i add...the dog learns the TONE so if in a END OF PATIENCE sounding to it tone is faster to accept it yes. otherwise i have to say it ouff about 3 or 4 even times yes.

that is enough of an example i think...


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> neither i nor the article mention the word physical punishment or even the word punishement...that is not the point made...the point being made is that the human not the boss is the boss...


You're taking this all too literally. The dog is not in charge of the household. There is no democracy otherwise it would be fox poo for dinner every night. The myth is that dogs desire, attain and maintain status by physical confrontation and force and that in order to train and control them you must beat them at this game. How you choose to run your household is a completely different matter.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Doesn't that mean your dog is dictating to you when he wants walking though? All the books I have and have read/followed say never let you dog dictate to you when he wants feeding/ walking/ to play, as its up to you when you decide that. My dog does not go for a walk unless I say so, she can pester all she wants, and hang around by the door, but I won't take her out until she goes and lies down quietly. When she does, then I'll say she can go for a walk.
> 
> As to Feja's ways, two things come to my mind, one its a different country with different ways and beliefs on doing things. I mean in China its the norm to eat dogs, so smacking them in France isn't bad in comparison to that! Second its a working dog, and at least around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work. They don't get petted, walked or allowed in the house, just do their job then get shoved in a barn until next time. Their not the same as pet dogs are. I don't agree with whipping one with a horse whip or something though, that's cruel, I was taught to use a thin rolled up newspaper lightly swatted on the butt. More humane than a whip!


Its basically up to the owner if they are happy to be bothered by their dog. I wont have it with buster, he gets walked/fed/played with when he is settled - the only thing he "tells" me is when he needs the toilet. However, I dont consider myself to be alpha... I just expect a certain level of "respect" from him; and he gets the same respect in return (I dont bother him when hes asleep/eating/whatever)

He is incredibly stubborn - but as such "pushing" just results in pushing back - our first trainer was "alpha" orientated and he didnt respond at all - Clicker training however, he thrived on - he learns by thinking and is happier doing so. He doesnt get fed treats to do what he is asked, he gets a simple pat or stroke... affection is his reward now. Treats were just to encourage the "learning" process.

I really would hate my relationship with him to be based on a power struggle.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You can have that kind of relationship with your dog if that's what you want. If you feel they challenge your authority and test the limits that's up to you.

However, I wouldn't agree that your interpretation of their behaviour is accurate, I think you are the one challenging your dog and testing the limits. Your dog is just being a dog and she'd probably be an even happier, more settled and more obedient partner if you dropped these ideas you have and stopped hitting and yelling at her, set up an effective and kind training programme and started looking more to yourself when things go wrong, rather than blaming your dog.

She has no choice other than to be your dog, that puts you in a position of responsibility, I don't think you should view that as a position of autocratic authority and abuse your position, which is what I think you do. You really don't need to and it's counter productive.

I think petforum members have tried to introduce you to this, but you're so entrenched in your beliefs you're not listening and are just looking for websites that you can interpret to support your theories and corrections, instead of looking around to see what else there is. 

I did say your own dog didn't appear to be particularly aggressive or excited by the sheep. That was looking for the good not the bad in your posts. But when you describe hitting your dog and yelling at her, it's hard to find the good. 

Whilst I was typing this, you've posted again. Bribing dogs with food whilst pushing them into position can confuse them and yes, some will react to it. For reward based training the reward doesn't even have to be food, it's a whole different world.

I sometimes use a ball or a toy as a reward when training my dog. Firstly though, I taught her 'all gone' which means well done, game over. She understands because I taught her it. Collies are world renowned for being obsessive characters, I've worked on it to make sure my dog isn't. I don't think it's healthy or balanced for the dog, so I wanted to do my utmost to not fall into that trap with my collie. 



> Second its a working dog, and at least around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work.


It doesn't have to be that way and although some might treat their dogs that way, not all do. Most successful working dog people say that the best dogs have a good relationship with their handler. I agree on the cultural differences and I wouldn't dream of going on a French website and trying to tell the French what to do with their dogs, but seeing as Freja is here, I don't see any harm in trying to persuade her and from your comment about rolled up newspapers, you too.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> *Doesn't that mean your dog is dictating to you when he wants walking though?* All the books I have and have read/followed say never let you dog dictate to you when he wants feeding/ walking/ to play, as its up to you when you decide that. My dog does not go for a walk unless I say so, she can pester all she wants, and hang around by the door, but I won't take her out until she goes and lies down quietly. When she does, then I'll say she can go for a walk.
> 
> As to Feja's ways, two things come to my mind, one its a different country with different ways and beliefs on doing things. I mean in China its the norm to eat dogs, so smacking them in France isn't bad in comparison to that! Second its a working dog, and at least around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work. They don't get petted, walked or allowed in the house, just do their job then get shoved in a barn until next time. Their not the same as pet dogs are. I don't agree with whipping one with a horse whip or something though, that's cruel, I was taught to use a thin rolled up newspaper lightly swatted on the butt. More humane than a whip!


Very possibly. I take my dogs out quite early every morning and if for some reason I don't, Diva will go and stand looking at her lead hanging up on the wall. I cannot resist that little face, so yes she is dictating. So what? All this don't let the dog dictate to you is more of the pack leader rubbish which you seem to have found to read about. I on the other hand have not read anything about dog training, and guess what? I can take my dogs anywhere, they are well behaved, walk nicely, do not cause havoc; all right perhaps a little too keen on fuss from visitors but that is what visitors expect when they come here.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> As to Feja's ways, two things come to my mind, one its a different country with different ways and beliefs on doing things. I mean in China its the norm to eat dogs, so smacking them in France isn't bad in comparison to that! Second its a working dog, and at least around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work.


But then this is www.petforums.co.uk. It's not www.blackanddeckerdog.fr.

Edit: My link doesn't work.. fancy that.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2013)

Oh dear gawd.... I can't even process this thread anymore.... 

I'm sorry but I'm not going to be sucked in to a discussion explaining why you shouldn't hit a dog in order to train. 
It isn't necessary end of story. 

Every single thing you want to achieve with your dog you can do without any kind of physical force whatsoever. This is not only possible, it's being done by millions of people in all sorts of different cultures with all sorts of breeds performing all sorts of tasks.

Feja, Wobbles, either you want to learn how to train without force and will read and discover how to do that, or you want to justify your use of force. If it's the latter, knock yourself out, I won't be reading. 

Nothing you have to say will convince me that it's okay to hit a dog in the name of training. I don't care what breed or personality your dog has, I don't care what job your dog has, I don't care what country you live in. 

I have lived in various countries in 2 different continents, I have worked with all sorts of breeds and mixes, from family pets to cattle ranchers. Guess what? People who don't want to hit their dogs figure out how not to. 

Besides, it's not me or the PF membership you have to answer to. It's your dogs.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> People who don't want to hit their dogs figure out how not to.


Spot on!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Struggle with stan rawlinson, anyone who thinks jinglers are helpful are IMO a bit cuckoo. Some of his videos also lead me to believe he does use adversives, just does not mention it.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> That will be when she screams it is a dangerous dog and has it put to sleep, declaring no doubt that there was something wrong with it.
> 
> Feja, I cannot plough through your tediously long posts to quote the bits I want to address, but two things stick in my mind. You have seen nor mentioned no sign of fear in your dogs, yet they have bared their teeth and growled at you. What would you call that then? Sounds like fear to me.
> 
> ...


unfortunately if you want to reply correctly to anything it involves reading the detail yes is my first point to your statement of...
<<I cannot plough through your tediously long posts to quote the bits I want to address>>

1. ok too much DETAIL you find in my posts...but then dont JUMP to conclusions i suggest that are WRONG of course if you have not read the detail ! because the devil is in the detail ! i just try to explain with detail that you find too long to read.

so to take what superficially you CHOOSE to see in my post out of context of the detail is BOUND to end up with you not understanding what i am trying to say and get it in fact wrong.

how to remedy that ? do not reply if you have not read the detail...and do not think you can have a valid view either if not base on having read the detail..

or read the detail...then reply...as i try to.

2. i quote your statement made that shows you have not understood my statement...an example...

<<You still think the Kennel Club should state my own view, for some reason, that anyone who thinks they need to hit their dog has got no business having one. I don't understand that at all. Why should the Kennel Club quote my view? It is just my view, as I said in the beginning.>>

I never said the KC should state YOUR view ! which view is that i wonder ? because i was in refering to KC statement refering to...

Why is there no statement in the ARTICLE in thread DANGEROUS OWNERS to say extreme examples of punishment made by the there given choke collar etc examples should NOT be used as methods to correct dogs...

All the article there ends by saying is...that sellers of dogs should AVOID mentioning use of choke collars etc in advice given to buyers of dogs.

The examples of correction mentioned in that article are EXTREME methods...the article itself does not state NO punishment physically AT ALL should not be used on a dog ! it states examples of EXTREME METHODS !

and my point is therefore WHY just AVOID recommending i agree disapproved of EXTREME METHODS like CHOKE COLLARS for training when it would be more POSITIVE and HELPFUL to buyers of dogs to have SPECIFIC EXTREME examples to avoid stated to them !

Is it because it might affect SALES OF CHOKE COLLARS ? to not upset manufacturers of those ? i am looking for a REASON why it does not ADVISE POSITIVELY AGAINST THE STATED EXTREME METHODS of correction for dogs !

it states the extreme examples in the article ! but is not saying that article should be handed out to buyers of dogs it is saying sellers of dogs should AVOID mention of the extreme measures only.

i hope that trying to address that misunderstood point helps. YOUR view is not what i said should be quoted in any KC or Seller of dogs advice given information.

3. <<You say you have hit your dogs "only" three times in six months, and you think that is not much? >>

i reply no. the examples you gave where not the same circumstances at all as mine.

My dogs have never bitten my face as you experienced. i will NOT say as some like you would and have said to me here that if he did that IT WAS YOUR FAULT ! you must have PROVOKED him with aggression yourself for him to do that ! no i will NOT say that is what i think is the REASON he bit you is because I DO NOT BELIEVE IT ! it may have been or not but I would not jump to the conclusion of saying it was !

IT WAS AN ACCIDENT ! learning BITE CONTROL even to use a techie doggie world term ...in my opinion that you got your face bitten like that...guessing and wanting to think of it that way rather than the negative way of thinking you aggressed your pup for him to do that !

4. <<Three times in six months? Sounds like abuse to me>>

strong words from you ! ABUSE ! well that is a judgement made on as you say MANY DETAILS you dont like to read !

so i repeat...READ THE DETAIL because IN HERDING SOMETIMES A HIT IS NEEDED TO SAVE THE SHEEP i remind you briefly in case you did not see the context !

ps I apologise for giving too much detail...if anything NEEDS that detail then yes i put it in.

If my posts are too long with too much detail and not read in full then yes you are jumping to conclusions not having read the facts correctly...for you to have a valid opinion.

if you believe your view of NO PHYSICAL CORRECTION EVER in ANY CIRCUMSTANCES is TOTALLY CORRECT then yes you are not interested in the detail...yet you gave the DETAIL of why YOU pup bit you ! so i gave the more complex details of yes MY reasons.

IF you hold and feel the statement...*NO PHYSICAL CORRECTION to a dog IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES is true..*.Then you dont need to read DETAILS and if that is your view then it can be said briefer without more details that you add to make negative of me statements in addition to that statement.

And i disagree with that statement of course. IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES i feel it is justified to give limited physical corrections to dogs. and no i do not think it ABUSE to have done so 3 times in 6 months i find that extreme statement and view too extreme.

ps I didnt reply to the PUTTING DOG TO SLEEP comment made...another EXTREME comment to me i add to read...no i am not replying to that unpleasant assumption not based on any to me evidence of what i may have done to arrive at that...

no mention of POOR FEJA is additonally a reason i do not answer...as i see the MOTIVE in writing that more a need to try and make me out to be a monster than concern for my dog. otherwise that statement would have added something like ? GIVE THE DOG AWAY to someone else to save her. enough said.

this is the comment someone put...and now i have in fact responded to it...i read i am going to put my dog down eventually in this comment...sigh...how extreme a statement to make...how unpleasant a statement to make..and do i care ? well it ummm what is the word ? does not SURPRISE me anymore to read that from people like that who to me are EXTREME people in my humble yes opinion so no surprises in the comment made...even though i feel i tried to explain the reasons adequately enough with in fact TOO MUCH detail that was not read. i read...try to read all IF I AM GOING TO GIVE ANY OPINION and MORE so if an EXTREME OPINION using EXTREMELY NEGATIVE WORDS LIKE THAT

<<That will be when she screams it is a dangerous dog and has it put to sleep, declaring no doubt that there was something wrong with it.>>


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

............


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Doesn't that mean your dog is dictating to you when he wants walking though? All the books I have and have read/followed say never let you dog dictate to you when he wants feeding/ walking/ to play, as its up to you when you decide that. My dog does not go for a walk unless I say so, she can pester all she wants, and hang around by the door, but I won't take her out until she goes and lies down quietly. When she does, then I'll say she can go for a walk.
> 
> As to Feja's ways, two things come to my mind, one its a different country with different ways and beliefs on doing things. I mean in China its the norm to eat dogs, so smacking them in France isn't bad in comparison to that! Second its a working dog, and at least around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work. They don't get petted, walked or allowed in the house, just do their job then get shoved in a barn until next time. Their not the same as pet dogs are. I don't agree with whipping one with a horse whip or something though, that's cruel, I was taught to use a thin rolled up newspaper lightly atted on the butt. More humane than a whip!


*oh deary me...i quote what i read just now !!! not knowing who wrote it i didnt look at THAT detail no !

AROUND HERE meaning the UK !!!

<<around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work. They don't get petted, walked or allowed in the house, just do their job then get shoved in a barn until next time. Their not the same as pet dogs are.>>

That is NEWS TO ME ! outrageous statement to make i IMHO ! *

and i think to shepherds also in the UK !!!

GENRALLY ! i DARE generalsie yes on this point alone without i agree any direct knowledge even CHATS to shepherds in the UK

this is an OUTRAGEOUS statment to make ! if you dont see it yourself then i understand you think such dogs can be mistreated from what you write !

i do not agree with that...and IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE DARING TO SAY IS THE NORM IN THE UK then i see NO merit in daring to criticise based on YOUR views of other countries anywhere anything elsewhere !!!

PS to the satisfaction i hope of others not wanting to read my posts fully as too difficult TEDIOUSLY LONG to use the term used by one...

then i inform you in advance that with my apologies if i failed to see any positive posts i could have replied to not read while replying to these ones done...i have decided to end my participation in this thread ! 

I think i have provided enough detail, even maybe not enough detail ! but do not wish to burden you with reading them, do not wish to continue this discussion here.

I wish you all the best with your dogs, and say i dont think anyone gets it right all the time and hope you dont have any unfortunate incidents with your dogs of course. As i would to all dogowners i end saying.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> As to Feja's ways, two things come to my mind, one its a different country with different ways and beliefs on doing things. I mean in China its the norm to eat dogs, so smacking them in France isn't bad in comparison to that! Second its a working dog, and at least around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. *There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work. They don't get petted, walked or allowed in the house, just do their job then get shoved in a barn until next time. Their not the same as pet dogs are.* I don't agree with whipping one with a horse whip or something though, that's cruel, I was taught to use a thin rolled up newspaper lightly swatted on the butt. More humane than a whip!


And there was me thinking that most human/working dog relationships were down to mutual affection & teamwork! I better get my ouija board & attempt to contact the working collies that I grew up with, so I can apologise to them for their horrible life in a nice warm house when really they were all tools & would have preferred to be dumped in a shed of a night time.

Working dogs _are_ like pets in that they are sentient beings with the same capacity to feel pain, loneliness & stress, just because some people treat their working dogs like that definitely doesn't make it right


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

...............


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> You can say its outrageous as much as you like, its how it is here. You never been on a sheep farm? Cos I have, got relatives with one, been on one since I was a baby, know a whole bunch of farmers, been on several farms, and I can tell you straight, no working dog would be allowed in the farmhouse. A pet one, but not the sheepdogs. My own aunt told me off for letting one of her sheepdogs in the house once. Mybe top trial dogs are looked upon as a prized companion, but run of the mill farm dogs aren't. Generally, their specifically kept out of the house so farmers don't become attached to them, they go out to work the sheep, them go back in the barn. When they get too old to work, unless its an exeptional dog, or a soft farmer, their shot before they go crazy through not being able to work any more. Farmer gets a new dog for work. Just like an IT worker buying a new laptop for his work. As that is how their looked on, as an object designed to do a job with . Their a tool not a pet. And nothing more. That's how farmers (at least round here) look on them by the way, not me.


i did read this before cutting off...

and i will not say that wobbles is incorrect in saying there are people out there that treat their working dogs like that. There are for sure in ALL countries not just the UK. i will not say that there are not also additionally people with pets that do not treat their dogs badly...in my opinion...

i was shocked that it is stated as a generalisation...absolute truth...and to wobbles credit she was criticising her own country...and that is not the norm on this thread...quite the contrary having a pop at other countries saying it was better in the uk based on my view of when that was said not too much evidence of a basis for being able to make that generalisation...

however, that is the danger of making generalisations...and everyone has varying degrees of experience or bases for making generalisations when made

however, i am not entering further into this thread, not because that statement offended me no because it was not targeted at me but a criticism of uk farmers in fact so not me personally in that post.

...i am not participating further in this thread because i feel it is not productive and only providing in fact fuel for fire for those wishing to feel superior on to me yes fairly limited reasons for having view so critical of me or shepherds who do in all countries use tools like a stick and whip occasionally to train their dogs or correct them ...

the ALPHA or NOT ALPHA being a MYTH or not is i end saying, just a matter of opinion, even if some believe there is an absolute truth known about that.

And to me believing in a person or dog being an ALPHA status or not is not the same thing as discussing the ALPHA or NOT ALPHA training methods. recognising that an ALPHA exists was the question as i interpreted it, not what kind of training methods should anyone use with dogs.

so. that said i end my discussion here. enough said for me. best not to use what i call TOO MANY NEGATIVE MESSAGES to humans if you want their BUY IN to any ideas i add joking !!! i find that funny. thank you for your negative views on me i must say. It was interesting to read them and understand evaluate you in particular to arrive at seeing if your ways of communicating reflected what your ways of usage of methods advocated by you might be. There seems to me a GAP in there...the ways of communicating therefore do not reflect the claimed ways of operating of all people. This is not uncommon i add.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> *oh deary me...i quote what i read just now !!! not knowing who wrote it i didnt look at THAT detail no !
> 
> AROUND HERE meaning the UK !!!
> 
> ...


I don't think her "round here" meant in the UK generally, more her own tiny section of it, any more than my "you" meant you personally, but general you. I don't know a lot of farmers but the ones I do know are attached to their dogs, though not in the same way as a pet. Generally, they will live out, but they still care for them.

As to my not reading all your posts and taking things out of context because of it, you say your dogs are not afraid of you yet you describe a fear reaction. Is there more that would contradict that? You say you only hit them three times in six months. Is there more that would contradict that? It doesn't matter what the reasons are, you should not hit a dog. Full stop.



Wobbles said:


> You can say its outrageous as much as you like, its how it is here. You never been on a sheep farm? Cos I have, got relatives with one, been on one since I was a baby, know a whole bunch of farmers, been on several farms, and I can tell you straight, no working dog would be allowed in the farmhouse. A pet one, but not the sheepdogs. My own aunt told me off for letting one of her sheepdogs in the house once. Mybe top trial dogs are looked upon as a prized companion, but run of the mill farm dogs aren't. Generally, their specifically kept out of the house so farmers don't become attached to them, they go out to work the sheep, them go back in the barn. When they get too old to work, unless its an exeptional dog, or a soft farmer, their shot before they go crazy through not being able to work any more. Farmer gets a new dog for work. Just like an IT worker buying a new laptop for his work. As that is how their looked on, as an object designed to do a job with . Their a tool not a pet. And nothing more. That's how farmers (at least round here) look on them by the way, not me.


If this is your family Wobbles, and this is how you have been raised to believe that animals are, then I feel for you and am not surprised that you have such strange ideas about how to treat animals.

I know farmers who are attached to their individual cows, never mind their dogs.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> . If he wants to go outside he will stand at the door till I get up and open it. If he wants feeding he will ask in his doggie way, till I get up and feed him.
> 
> So who is the boss? Sounds to me like he is.


or like lexington will go open the door himself when he wants to go outside  and dai will just bark and do his little dinner dance until he gets his food the others just get excited at 4pm


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> You can say its outrageous as much as you like, its how it is here. *You never been on a sheep farm?* Cos I have, got relatives with one, been on one since I was a baby, know a whole bunch of farmers, been on several farms, and I can tell you straight, no working dog would be allowed in the farmhouse. A pet one, but not the sheepdogs. My own aunt told me off for letting one of her sheepdogs in the house once. Mybe top trial dogs are looked upon as a prized companion, but run of the mill farm dogs aren't. Generally, their specifically kept out of the house so farmers don't become attached to them, they go out to work the sheep, them go back in the barn. When they get too old to work, unless its an exeptional dog, or a soft farmer, their shot before they go crazy through not being able to work any more. Farmer gets a new dog for work. Just like an IT worker buying a new laptop for his work. As that is how their looked on, as an object designed to do a job with . Their a tool not a pet. And nothing more. That's how farmers (at least round here) look on them by the way, not me.


Yep, spent a big chunk of my childhood growing up on a smallholding & at one time we had 200 sheep, so I do know how working dogs are treated, so not everyone shoves them in a barn


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> Yep, spent a big chunk of my childhood growing up on a smallholding & at one time we had 200 sheep, so I do know how working dogs are treated, so not everyone shoves them in a barn


This.

It goes back to what I was saying... It doesn't matter where you're from, what your dog does, what breed, or personality. If you want to find a better way you will.

Basically, you can put your energies in to justifying why what you're doing is okay, or you can put those same efforts in to figuring out a better way to do what you're doing.

That's why I joked about old ways being better. Good grief, if we never grew and learned and dared to try something different, and forge a new path, what's the point? 
We should all still be sacrificing animals to the gods and seeing if witches float.

The point is, we now know better. When you know better, you do better.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I wonder if all these farmers who treat working dogs as tools, shut them outside, beat them etc. really worry too much about walking through gates first, eating first, not letting the dogs run ahead of them....


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> You can say its outrageous as much as you like, its how it is here. You never been on a sheep farm? Cos I have, got relatives with one, been on one since I was a baby, know a whole bunch of farmers, been on several farms, and I can tell you straight, no working dog would be allowed in the farmhouse. A pet one, but not the sheepdogs. My own aunt told me off for letting one of her sheepdogs in the house once. Mybe top trial dogs are looked upon as a prized companion, but run of the mill farm dogs aren't. Generally, their specifically kept out of the house so farmers don't become attached to them, they go out to work the sheep, them go back in the barn. When they get too old to work, unless its an exeptional dog, or a soft farmer, their shot before they go crazy through not being able to work any more. Farmer gets a new dog for work. Just like an IT worker buying a new laptop for his work. As that is how their looked on, as an object designed to do a job with . Their a tool not a pet. And nothing more. That's how farmers (at least round here) look on them by the way, not me.


I spent a huge chunk of my childhood growing up on working farms and I can honestly say that the large majority viewed their working dogs as a pet and a partner first and fore most.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I see you live in Wales Wobble. Years ago we visited Wales for some kayaking thing hubby was doing. We took our border collie with us. In the evening we popped into one of the nearby villages with the dog and visited a pub. The pub landlord told us to leave our dog outside, pointing to somewhere to tie him up and offered to get him a bowl of water. Dogs weren't barred from the pub, just working dogs ie border collies. 

There's some strange folk in Wales. :lol::blink:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Second its a working dog, and at least around here, all a working dog is is a tool to do a job. There's no attachment or sentimentality with them as its just like a power drill to a builder, a necessary object for work. They don't get petted, walked or allowed in the house, just do their job then get shoved in a barn until next time. Their not the same as pet dogs are. I don't agree with whipping one with a horse whip or something though, that's cruel, I was taught to use a thin rolled up newspaper lightly swatted on the butt. More humane than a whip!


Round here...that's the same part of the world you live in Wobbles, working sheepdogs are highly valued by their owners, and mutual devotion is the norm from what I've seen in the fields, amongst my neighbours, in the vet waiting room. Sure there are people who treat their working dogs badly, in the same way there are people who treat their pet dogs badly.



simplysardonic said:


> And there was me thinking that most human/working dog relationships were down to mutual affection & teamwork! I better get my ouija board & attempt to contact the working collies that I grew up with, so I can apologise to them for their horrible life in a nice warm house when really they were all tools & would have preferred to be dumped in a shed of a night time.
> 
> Working dogs _are_ like pets in that they are sentient beings with the same capacity to feel pain, loneliness & stress, just because *some *people treat their working dogs like that definitely doesn't make it right


"some" being the operative word! 



Wobbles said:


> You can say its outrageous as much as you like, its how it is here. You never been on a sheep farm? Cos I have, got relatives with one, been on one since I was a baby, know a whole bunch of farmers, been on several farms, and I can tell you straight, no working dog would be allowed in the farmhouse. A pet one, but not the sheepdogs. My own aunt told me off for letting one of her sheepdogs in the house once. Mybe top trial dogs are looked upon as a prized companion, but run of the mill farm dogs aren't. Generally, their specifically kept out of the house so farmers don't become attached to them, they go out to work the sheep, them go back in the barn. When they get too old to work, unless its an exeptional dog, or a soft farmer, their shot before they go crazy through not being able to work any more. Farmer gets a new dog for work. Just like an IT worker buying a new laptop for his work. As that is how their looked on, as an object designed to do a job with . Their a tool not a pet. And nothing more. That's how farmers (at least round here) look on them by the way, not me.





Wobbles said:


> Its not him my family are, it's how farmers round here are. If I go past any farm, the sheepdogs are tied to the gate post, or sat in the farmyard come rain, sun, hail or snow. Its a working dog not a pet, that's just how their viewed, at least around these parts.
> 
> Different strokes different folks I guess. I'm not saying every single farm is like that, but certainly over here, the majority are. It's rare to find a farmer whose "affectionate" with his sheepdog.


You are going to have to stop confusing what your relatives do with what "everyone" does. My garden backs onto the fields of a neighbour and I'm lucky enough to get to watch him work his trainee dogs often. Only one of his dogs lives outside, and chatting to me one day, he was at pains to point out that it was because he'd rescued her from a bad situation and she had become so used to living outside that if he tried to make her sleep indoors she became anxious.

I repeat, the behaviour of my neighbour is pretty much the norm round here, sure, a lot of dogs live outdoors, but they also spend every minute of the day at the farmer's side, which many pet dogs, alone all day, sadly never get to enjoy.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> When you know better, you do better.


In amongst many, many excellent statements on this thread, and in fact board as whole (and of course some not so excellent), this quote has got to be the truest and most succinct I've ever come across.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> oh deary me...smiling i recognise that refernce to thinking a dog sits up at night thinking and planning of things to do...um WORLD DOMINATION even you write !!!
> 
> it is from one of the doggie books i read yes...culture clash i think without checking...but DID I SAY THAT ? did i say I THINK MY DOG IS PLANNING sitting up at night thinking of WORLD DOMINATION ???
> 
> ...


I wasn't directing the comment at you  I also can't read the whole thread as I just haven't time.

All I can say is I've worked with Military guard Dogs, I've never ever ever once had to be physical with them, well accept were another dogs or persons safety is involved and if that's happened that's been a error on my part. I worked in partnership for over 8 years with some " extreme" dogs, I've never once tried to be BOSS, ALPHA, dominate them what ever you want to call it. We had a partnership and not to sound to dramatic about it, we had the partnership because there was a large probability that the dog would have to defend me, or even save my life, I'd rather had the partnership than have a dog beat (either physically or mentally) in to submission, because you know what I have no doubt at the end of the day a dog who was scared of me was not going to defend me..........


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Opening this up again but can we please not go off on any more personal rants.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> You can say its outrageous as much as you like, its how it is here. You never been on a sheep farm? Cos I have, got relatives with one, been on one since I was a baby, know a whole bunch of farmers, been on several farms, and I can tell you straight, no working dog would be allowed in the farmhouse. A pet one, but not the sheepdogs. My own aunt told me off for letting one of her sheepdogs in the house once. Mybe top trial dogs are looked upon as a prized companion, but run of the mill farm dogs aren't. Generally, their specifically kept out of the house so farmers don't become attached to them, they go out to work the sheep, them go back in the barn. When they get too old to work, unless its an exeptional dog, or a soft farmer, their shot before they go crazy through not being able to work any more. Farmer gets a new dog for work. Just like an IT worker buying a new laptop for his work. As that is how their looked on, as an object designed to do a job with . Their a tool not a pet. And nothing more. That's how farmers (at least round here) look on them by the way, not me.


I have a feeling that your relatives are not the norm. Yes there are farmers who treat their working dogs like that, there are pet owners who do too, but to abuse your most precious "tool" is just ridiculous, and most farmers know that.


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