# How many Queens per stud boy ?



## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

This is a theoretical question at the moment, and I realise your answers will also depend on the breed and the stud boy himself, but I am interested in finding out how many Queens people have to keep a stud boy happy and if you have found it possible to keep enough Queens to remain "closed stud" or started out with that intention and then decided to take girls in.

Also has anyone decided to keep a stud and then found it is not for them - I worry that I wouldnt like a boy being outside, yet I do go and use studs myself which are kept outside which makes me feel a bit of a hypocrite.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You aren't a hypocrite. Stud work isn't for everyone and many perfectly fine breeders don't enjoy it. I love it and as I get older I find I breed less myself but still thoroughly enjoy stud work.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

In my view, if most studs are closed then the gene pool can get restricted to those of the few open studs, which probably isn't in the long term interests of the breed especially if the few open studs are poor cats and/or from indifferent breeding.

I'm not saying a stud owner should accept any queen - far from it - but to me having a stud is having part of the future of the breed in one's hands and they need to be used wisely. Of course the queens are also part of the future, but since most studs sire far more kittens than most queens deliver they are where the restriction occurs.

Edit: 'how many queens' surely depends on the stud, all cats being different. Have been told by one stud owner that the more girls a stud gets the more he wants. However if you are only breeding a couple of litters a year then I suspect that on a financial basis it's not worth having one's own stud by the time his accommodation, keep & vet care have been paid for unless it's a long long journey to the nearest suitable stud.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

wicket said:


> I worry that I wouldnt like a boy being outside, yet I do go and use studs myself which are kept outside which makes me feel a bit of a hypocrite.


But if your boy lives in a nice stud house and has a constant company of a neutered cat it would not be that bad for him? And it is a service that is needed to keep the breed going!


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> In my view, if most studs are closed then the gene pool can get restricted to those of the few open studs, which probably isn't in the long term interests of the breed especially if the few open studs are poor cats and/or from indifferent breeding.
> 
> I'm not saying a stud owner should accept any queen - far from it - but to me having a stud is having part of the future of the breed in one's hands and they need to be used wisely. However if you are only breeding a couple of litters a year then I suspect that on a financial basis it's not worth having one's own stud by the time his accommodation, keep & vet care have been paid for unless it's a long long journey to the nearest suitable stud.


This is what I have been looking into very carefully - the breeder who has been helping/mentoring me is retiring later this year, and in her opinion it would be in the breeds benefit if I chose to keep a stud. I would want to be closed at first until I had enough experience to be able to do the job properly - I have found that due to only a few boys being available the same cats seem to pop up all the time in pedigrees within a very large radius - to escape this I would need to travel at least four hours in either direction to find a boy, and while I would be prepared to do this I think its quite hard on the cats and I dont really like leaving my girls at stud even though I know they are in good hands.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Kotanushka said:


> But if your boy lives in a nice stud house and has a constant company of a neutered cat it would not be that bad for him? And it is a service that is needed to keep the breed going!


This is how I am trying to justify it to myself - I am lucky in that I am surrounded by fields and have plenty of scope for a large stud house, and only work two days a week so I have plenty of time to spend with a stud boy.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Sorry to chime in as I'm not a breeder and know nothing about your question, but have a retired stud as my pet. He had at least two stud owners possibly three in his career, I presume to counteract some of what OS was saying about closed studs and the gene pool. He sired 13 litters by the time he retired aged 8 years and 8 months.

I can only comment on the animal's welfare but I have given some thought to how many times he changed hands, lifestyle and food. I'm not saying it's wrong or cruel because I know at each of these places he was loved and cared for, he has a gentle disposition and is very sociable. He can be a little headshy at times though, which may be a past issue or may be just him. 

Just thought I'd throw that comment into the discussion as I've no doubt having 3 or possibly 4 different homes as an adult must have had some impact on him psychologically. He is very clingy and can be possessive of me, and won't go to anyone else although he lets anyone stroke him if they go to him. Not even my mother who comes to look after him on a regular basis, at least a couple of times a month through the summer.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> Sorry to chime in as I'm not a breeder and know nothing about your question, but have a retired stud as my pet. He had at least two stud owners possibly three in his career, I presume to counteract some of what OS was saying about closed studs and the gene pool. He sired 13 litters by the time he retired aged 8 years and 8 months.
> 
> I can only comment on the animal's welfare but I have given some thought to how many times he changed hands, lifestyle and food. I'm not saying it's wrong or cruel because I know at each of these places he was loved and cared for, he has a gentle disposition and is very sociable. He can be a little headshy at times though, which may be a past issue or may be just him.
> 
> Just thought I'd throw that comment into the discussion as I've no doubt having 3 or possibly 4 different homes as an adult must have had some impact on him psychologically. He is very clingy and can be possessive of me, and won't go to anyone else although he lets anyone stroke him if they go to him. Not even my mother who comes to look after him on a regular basis, at least a couple of times a month through the summer.


I have thought through my breeding plans very carefully, and if, and its a very big "if" I do decide to keep a stud boy it will be with the intention he remains with me after his stud days are over.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> You aren't a hypocrite. Stud work isn't for everyone and many perfectly fine breeders don't enjoy it. I love it and as I get older I find I breed less myself but still thoroughly enjoy stud work.


I have only really heard negative experiences from people who keep stud cats so its lovely to find someone who really enjoys it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> He sired 13 litters by the time he retired aged 8 years and 8 months


Most studs are working by a year old so on those figures he didn't even sire two litters a year which is very low. Maybe this is why he got handed on and on as he wasn't getting enough work.



> However if you are only breeding a couple of litters a year then I suspect that on a financial basis it's not worth having one's own stud


You never get back your capital costs, nor should you expect to. A stud is not about making money.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> Most studs are working by a year old so on those figures he didn't even sire two litters a year which is very low. Maybe this is why he got handed on and on as he wasn't getting enough work.
> 
> You never get back your capital costs, nor should you expect to. A stud is not about making money.


I am not considering it for financial or even travelling time reasons - I feel it would be a lot less stressful on my girls and have to weigh that up against quality of life for the boy and what he would contribute towards my breeding plans and if the breed in general.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> He sired 13 litters by the time he retired aged 8 years and 8 months.


 Less than 2 matings a year? 2 or 3 different stud owners? I would not have thought this was a common situation with the studs in this country?

Looks like your cat had an extremely unfortunate stud career. :yikes:

But I do not think it is wright to use such a bad example to discourage potential stud owners who are willing and are in a position to provide their cat with good living conditions. If all people were thinking this way we would not have pedigree cats, would we? Or you would rather a stud lived in a house with the breeding queens and the people? It is possible of course, but if he starts spraying... And some of them I am told just do not feel comfortable if they do not spay all their stud house from top to bottom!
And what is the alternative to planned breeding of pedigree cats? Keeping unspayed moggies and letting them out to breed with whoever they meet in the neighbourhood?

I say as a breeder who has one (soon will be two) breeding queens - please, more good and unrelated between themselves studs available to responsible breeders! Now I have found a good stud for the mother, but where do I find a good one for the daughter? I cannot very well take her to her dad?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I do not think it is wright to use such a bad example to discourage potential stud owners who are willing and are in a position to provide their cat with good living conditions


Nor do I.

Wicket, if you have a couple of girls and end up friendly with only one or two other breeders who use your boy you will be well within tolerable limits. That's the best of both worlds for you and your boy while you find out if it's something you'd care to expand on.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

havoc said:


> Most studs are working by a year old so on those figures he didn't even sire two litters a year which is very low. Maybe this is why he got handed on and on as he wasn't getting enough work.
> 
> You never get back your capital costs, nor should you expect to. A stud is not about making money.





Kotanushka said:


> Less than 2 matings a year? 2 or 3 different stud owners? I would not have thought this was a common situation with the studs in this country?
> 
> Looks like your cat had an extremely unfortunate stud career. :yikes:


You see, I had no idea that this was low! I assumed from 2 years old 2 a year might have been normal, shows how much I know. Perhaps one of them concentrated on the showing side rather than the breeding side? I've no idea. I do know he was a charmer and that one queen refused to let anyone but him touch her.

What would be a more usual number for a stud boy then?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> What would be a more usual number for a stud boy then?


I've known people say a minimum of three a year but it does to some extent depend on the cat. A number is too simplistic really, would three in one month but no more all year be OK?


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

How does it work in wild life? Males of feline species do not have breeding queens brought to them - they wait and fight for them. Probably does not have to happen that often... :001_unsure:

And I am sure if you find yourself a great cat and he gets to become "good at his business" your main problem will be to screen the queens of willing breeders - if they are good and healthy enough for your boy.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have only really heard negative experiences from people who keep stud cats so its lovely to find someone who really enjoys it.


It's up to the stud owner to make it a pleasant experience. The relationship you have with a stud boy can be amazingly close and special or little more than provision of food and water with the occasional girl thrown in. I don't believe it can be the former without considerable capital outlay. If your stud accommodation isn't also big enough and comfortable enough for humans then you won't want to spend time there and the poor boy misses out on human contact.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd agree with that. I made my lad's run big enough that I could get a deck chair and all sorts in there, and put a shelf and plugs up so that I could take a computer out there and work in the summer... not that I do as he spends more time indoors than out, but still, if the time were to come that he'd have to go out, it would be easy to sit out there with him in comfort.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I currently have 4 girls at the moment with my stud , he lives next to my girls so he has company from them and me and my hubby and visiting friends 


I made the decision to get my own as like you there wasn't many suitable studs within my area plus he had a cracking ped and a temperament to die for 

I don't regret getting him and he has given me a lovely litter this year. He will never be rehomed , we will be together for ever


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Pic for ya .. 19 months old ... And I love him


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

My boy has 3-4 girls, and lives with a neuter. There are only 3 Oci breeders in the country so no need for my boys to be at open stud. I only got my first boy as my mentor is downsizing to retire.

I don't know any closed studs that are strictly closed, they're just not open to anyone who comes along. Many contacts are made by showing neuters before breeding, then stud access is easy to come by. 

Have seen some rather small stud runs online, studs need space to move, play and run. My boy doesn't spray so spends most of his time indoors, he goes out in his run for fresh air and also walks/runs on a harness.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I don't know any closed studs that are strictly closed


Just as there are very few which are truly open. I don't label mine at all, each request to use him is considered individually


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Thanks everyone - I was looking at three of my own girls plus possibly a neuter depending on the boy - I am envisaging a large lean-to/ conservatory type building attached to my house with separate queens quarters and access into a large run as space isnt an issue. If I do get a boy it will be with the knowledge that he needs to be number one (wont tell husband this, he already knows he comes behind the cats  ) I will expect it to be a big commitment and wont make a decision lightly.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Just found an interesting site on keeping a stud. 
Keeping a Stud Cat Happy - Siamese Cat Breeder


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Kotanushka said:


> Just found an interesting site on keeping a stud.
> Keeping a Stud Cat Happy - Siamese Cat Breeder


Thanks, have read that one


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

I have a stud cat who I was hoping to keep indoors and that worked well for about six months, during which time he sired four litters. He then started spraying everywhere, and it really was everywhere, even on the kitchen side! So I couldn't keep him inside any longer, my other half built him an outside run which is very nice but if I could do it again I would make it larger. It has a high up house, a big scratching post and a 5' tall activity tree but not much free space in it. He was quite happy over the winter as the girls weren't calling they each spent a few weeks outside with him so he wasn't alone. Once the weather improved the girls came back in and he was very shouty on his own so I got him a neutered moggy female to keep him company but they hate each other! So I am trying to rehome her and have got him an older neutered male to see if he prefers him. They haven't met yet but I am hopeful as the older male has lived with other males all his life. I loved having my boy in the house and having him outside makes me so sad as I miss him and I think he's unhappy. He has a harness so he can explore the garden on nice days but he does stand at the cage door and shout at the house a lot of the time. The problem is with the girls calling in the house they're all he wants, we can go out and spend time with him and although we keep his interest for about 5 minutes he's then shouting at the wire again. I'm glad we have him but I can't say for definite he has the best life possible, but I'm working on it.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

flosskins said:


> I have a stud cat who I was hoping to keep indoors and that worked well for about six months, during which time he sired four litters. He then started spraying everywhere, and it really was everywhere, even on the kitchen side! So I couldn't keep him inside any longer, my other half built him an outside run which is very nice but if I could do it again I would make it larger. It has a high up house, a big scratching post and a 5' tall activity tree but not much free space in it. He was quite happy over the winter as the girls weren't calling they each spent a few weeks outside with him so he wasn't alone. Once the weather improved the girls came back in and he was very shouty on his own so I got him a neutered moggy female to keep him company but they hate each other! So I am trying to rehome her and have got him an older neutered male to see if he prefers him. They haven't met yet but I am hopeful as the older male has lived with other males all his life. I loved having my boy in the house and having him outside makes me so sad as I miss him and I think he's unhappy. He has a harness so he can explore the garden on nice days but he does stand at the cage door and shout at the house a lot of the time. The problem is with the girls calling in the house they're all he wants, we can go out and spend time with him and although we keep his interest for about 5 minutes he's then shouting at the wire again. I'm glad we have him but I can't say for definite he has the best life possible, but I'm working on it.


Thank you for sharing your experience


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