# 4 yr old boy killed after dog attack.



## dexter

Boy, four, is killed in dog attack - AOL News


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## leashedForLife

oh, my - poor child, poor grandmother!  

OTOH - 
perhaps the serving soldier could have found a more appropriate carer for his dog than his 63-YO mum, 
who cares for the kids or has them visit? 
hindsight is always 20/20, but that was a pop-up for me. :001_huh: 

very sad, 
--- terry


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## paddyjulie

Just terrible...of pitbull type it says 

juliex


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## Izzie999

It is so heartbreaking to read yet another story like this! Apparently someone had reported dog breeding in that house and the caller was told it was not a police matter! I hope that person who took that call now realises that by not forwarding it to the police they have been partially responsible for what has happened here.

When are people going to wise up and not get these evil breeds.They are not family pets,they are ticking time bombs that lead to tragedy.

My heart goes out to his poor parents who have lost their little boy and will be having a very different sort of xmas this year.

Izzie


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## Guest

Izzie999 said:


> When are people going to wise up and not get these evil breeds.They are not family pets,they are ticking time bombs that lead to tragedy.
> 
> Izzie


I don't agree with your statement that the dog was 'evil' the owners are in the wrong as is always the case. Yes it was an illeagal breed but at the end of the day it's not the dogs fault. many lessons to be learned from this story so sad :-(


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## simplysardonic

Buster's Mummy said:


> I don't agree with your statement that the dog was 'evil' the owners are in the wrong as is always the case. Yes it was an illeagal breed but at the end of the day it's not the dogs fault. many lessons to be learned from this story so sad :-(


seconded, no animal is 'evil'- except for a proportion of humans, that is


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## BeesBella

simplysardonic said:


> seconded, no animal is 'evil'- except for a proportion of humans, that is


I totally agree ! No dog is evil !!! I actually can't believe a member of this forum actually said that ! Bitpulls make amazing pets ! It's what people train them to do, or not train them to do that makes them dangerous ! Any animal can be dangerous, a chinuaha (sp?) killed a baby in france a couple of years ago ! Are they now an 'evil breed' ? It's stupid people. Makes you wonder why they have a bitpull in the first place tbh ! Grrr people !!!


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## Izzie999

BeesBella said:


> I totally agree ! No dog is evil !!! I actually can't believe a member of this forum actually said that ! Bitpulls make amazing pets ! It's what people train them to do, or not train them to do that makes them dangerous ! Any animal can be dangerous, a chinuaha (sp?) killed a baby in france a couple of years ago ! Are they now an 'evil breed' ? It's stupid people. Makes you wonder why they have a bitpull in the first place tbh ! Grrr people !!!


Ok I apologise for using the word evil but I still think they are a banned breed for a reason!

At the end of the day this child has died and its a tragic waste of a young life which could have been avoided. Much of the fault lies with the owner and the Merseyside police who did not investigate the complaint that they were breeding these dogs. This could have been avoided!

Izzie


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## fluffybunny2001

Im sorry but evil breed???
thats a very narrowminded statement.
I work in rescue with the majority being staffies or staffie types.And i can honestly say they are the nicest breed of dog i have met,even my own dog and american cocker can be worse!!!!the worse dogs we have are jackrussels!!!
That sort of statement is why hundreds of innocent dogs are put to sleep everyday.
If ANY breed of dog is not brought up properly it has the potential to turn nasty and any breed of dog can be a so called "ticking timebomb"
Im very sorry for what happened to this little boy,but ultamatley it`s the dogs owner that was at fault here not the dog!!!!


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## Izzie999

fluffybunny2001 said:


> Im sorry but evil breed???
> thats a very narrowminded statement.
> I work in rescue with the majority being staffies or staffie types.And i can honestly say they are the nicest breed of dog i have met,even my own dog and american cocker can be worse!!!!the worse dogs we have are jackrussels!!!
> That sort of statement is why hundreds of innocent dogs are put to sleep everyday.
> If ANY breed of dog is not brought up properly it has the potential to turn nasty and any breed of dog can be a so called "ticking timebomb"
> Im very sorry for what happened to this little boy,but ultamatley it`s the dogs owner that was at fault here not the dog!!!!


See above apology before jumping down my throat please!!!

At the end of the day my thoughts lie purely with the parents of this little boy,not another dog that has gone nasty, I would have responded in the same way if it had been any of the banned breeds. They are banned for a reason. Im not commenting on this thread again because it makes me so angry you all stick up for a dog that has ended a childs life.

Izzie


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## dexter

unless the police were told there was dog breeding of an illegal breed in the house i can't see how the police can be held responsible.


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## Sypher

dexter said:


> unless the police were told there was dog breeding of an illegal breed in the house i can't see how the police can be held responsible.


They were tipped off that it may have been pit bulls being breed.


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## paddyjulie

Izzie999 said:


> See above apology before jumping down my throat please!!!
> 
> At the end of the day my thoughts lie purely with the parents of this little boy,not another dog that has gone nasty, I would have responded in the same way if it had been any of the banned breeds. They are banned for a reason. Im not commenting on this thread again because it makes me so angry you all stick up for a dog that has ended a childs life.
> 
> Izzie


It's all the bloody idiot's who have owned these dogs that have got them banned.status dogs ..the more agressive they make them the better in their opinion

julie


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## Izzie999

dexter said:


> unless the police were told there was dog breeding of an illegal breed in the house i can't see how the police can be held responsible.


They were told a few months back that there was breeding going on in that house and the caller was told that it was not a police matter!It will now be investigated but its too little too late.

Im sorry for my emotive response but at the end of the day children come first over dogs every single time! Yes any dog can turn nasty no matter how well its trained but people who train their dogs deliberately to fight are putting their kids at risk by having them around these kind of dogs.

Izzie


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## fluffybunny2001

There shouldn`t be any banned breeds,banned owners,the dogs are trained to be the way they are.
unfortuanatly jack russels don`t give the right "status" look!!!!!


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## Izzie999

fluffybunny2001 said:


> There shouldn`t be any banned breeds,banned owners,the dogs are trained to be the way they are.
> unfortuanatly jack russels don`t give the right "status" look!!!!!


Lol no they don't do they? I think anyone who has these dogs should have them confiscated and be banned from keeping dogs fullstop!

I hope when they investigate this,the people for having those dogs in that house will be prosecuted. I feel sorry for the parents but if they deliberately had those dogs in that house with that child they should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

Izzie


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## Guinevere13

Izzie999 said:


> Im sorry for my emotive response but at the end of the day children come first over dogs every single time! Yes any dog can turn nasty no matter how well its trained but *people who train their dogs deliberately to fight are putting their kids at risk by having them around these kind of dogs.*
> Izzie


It's a shame they didn't think as much of the child as you do. 
It's a shame the police shot the dog instead of investigating why it acted that way. It's so easy to blame the dog. Yes I feel for the family left behind and for the poor, poor child, but you can't help wondering what really went on.


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## dexter

Izzie999 said:


> They were told a few months back that there was breeding going on in that house and the caller was told that it was not a police matter!It will now be investigated but its too little too late.
> 
> Im sorry for my emotive response but at the end of the day children come first over dogs every single time! Yes any dog can turn nasty no matter how well its trained but people who train their dogs deliberately to fight are putting their kids at risk by having them around these kind of dogs.
> 
> Izzie


at the end of the day people know the dangers of owning this so called breed. so why have young children around them????. beggars belief. haven't lessons been learnt in past events? clearly not.


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## BeesBella

I do no blame the dog for this, I blame the owners. The dog did nothing wrong, he did what he has been taught !!! This kid died in vain because it's not going to stop people who don't understand dogs or how to train them properly, owning 'dangerous' dogs.
Baby Savaged and Killed by Family Jack Russell and Staffordshire Bull Terrier â Baby Killed by Dogs - Should Dogs and Children Co-habit together? Time to Re-address this Question in the Wake of Baby Killed by Family Dogs - News Items Today
Baby Killed by Labrador Puppy is Named
Dogs can be dangerous no matter what breed, people class pitbulls as dangerous because they are powerful....well if you needed a bodyguard, you wouldn't pick a weak weedly little one would you eh ? Pitbulls can protect a child ......

Overcoming The Reputation - Photos of Pit Bulls and Children | Dog Reflections


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## dexter

Guinevere13 said:


> It's a shame they didn't think as much of the child as you do.
> It's a shame the police shot the dog instead of investigating why it acted that way. It's so easy to blame the dog. Yes I feel for the family left behind and for the poor, poor child, but you can't help wondering what really went on.


so what would you do with the dog???????????????


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## Guinevere13

dexter said:


> so what would you do with the dog???????????????


Find out if there were any mental or physical problems with the dog. Evaluate it. Obviously I wouldn't want it rehomed! Obviously it would have been destroyed, I am not stupid. I meant they should have investigated rather than just shoot it.


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## pennytwinkles

I strongly believe it is the owner's that are at fault and not the dogs although I am aware that there can be bad dogs just as there are bad humans! I sympathise with the family as they have lost a child and nothing can detract from that. I agree though that the owners should be prosecuted as they were obviously breeding these dogs in the house which is totally wrong. A dog is what we make it by training and if it is not trained then goodness knows what will happen regardless of what breed it is.

My personal opinion is that a dog no matter how placid or friendly should never be trusted with young children on their own as there is always a chance that something could just trigger a reaction by the dog. Even a dog playing with a child unsupervised and nipping the child accidently could be classed as the child being attacked in another parent's eyes. I would never allow anyone else to take my dogs for a walk either for that very reason. I love my dogs to bits and although "I think" they would never do anything harmful I just wouldn't take the chance as I really do not know!


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## dexter

Guinevere13 said:


> Find out if there were any mental or physical problems with the dog. Evaluate it. Obviously I wouldn't want it rehomed! Obviously it would have been destroyed, I am not stupid. I meant they should have investigated rather than just shoot it.


wasn;t insinuating you were stupid. but end of the day what more could you learn from a dog thats killed a kid??


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## Guinevere13

You could find out if it had been beaten and had had enough, or mistreated in other ways, or if it had a tumour that affected it etc... That way people wouldn't be able to point to just ANY dog and call it dangerous. I am not giving excuses, I just don't want people to go into panic mode and see all dogs as a threat to be destroyed if they so much as look at someone.


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## BeesBella

dexter said:


> wasn;t insinuating you were stupid. but end of the day what more could you learn from a dog thats killed a kid??


You could learn the temperament....maybe the child annoyed it ! Pulled it's ears ect. Maybe the child wasn't taught how to treat a dog with respect, I'm guessing, judging by the fact the parents were breeding an illegal breed, he didn't know how to do. It could have just been because the child provoked it which imo is what leads to most dog attacks, this dog could have made an amazing pet for more experienced owners with a large enclosed garden so there is not so much as a possibility they could come across someone who is not experienced with dogs ! I think a lot of the time, the police kill these dogs to make them look like they are 'protecting the community' not because they actually think they are a threat.

Another two beautiful lives wasted in my opinion...both child who was raised by such parents and a dog who was owned by such owners.


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## leashedForLife

re izzie -



> ...my thoughts lie purely with the parents of this little boy,
> not another dog that has gone nasty, I would have responded in the same way
> if it had been any of the banned breeds. They are banned for a reason.
> Im not commenting on this thread again because it makes me so angry (that)
> you all stick up for a dog that has ended a childs life.


hey, izzie! :--)

i do not think that all here, or even many here, would say that the dog gets a pass - 
what i think is a somewhat-consensus is that _*dogs are not entirely responsible for their OWN actions; 
the owner and / or handler, care-giver (boarding kennel, etc) is LEGALLY and ETHICALLY liable. *_

the secondary, and IMO far-more important point? 
many of us are here saying that tarring an entire _*breed, or any dog who has some ancestry from one or more 
specific breeds, or any individual dog because that dog looks like one or more supposedly-suspect breeds... *_ 
is an illogical, knee-jerk reaction to a rare and extreme event, where the OWNER or HANDLER or CARE-GIVER should 
be held responsible - _not the dog, not the breed, not the mix, and *especially! --*NOT a *Look!*_ :mad2: 

the * looks-like-a- _______ * really frustrates me - 
a Min-Pin may Look Like a Dobe, but the two breeds are not even related.

if they REALLY want to know ancestry, do a DNA-test for breed markers - 
but as for damning *all the individual dogs of any one breed* as child-killers or automatically dangerous, or stating 
that their _*jaws lock... *_ those are highly inaccurate, un-just and emotional diatribes, rather like claiming all dark-skinned 
men play better basketball, or all white women are born well-mannered, sheesh... 
U and i both know every child ever born, was born a proper little animal, with =no manners whatever= , 
and had to be taught every rudiment of civilised behavior. any pup is precisely the same - an infant, needing to be taught.

breeds have specific flaws, talents and foibles - 
ADOPTERs and BUYERs and BREEDERs need to be aware of those predilections, and buy, breed or adopt accordingly.

don;t get a Livestock-Guardian if U live in a multi-unit flat! 

don;t get a Terrierist if U live in a small home, with a small yard, * _*nearby neighbors - who will NOT 
be entertained by barking*_ * and U have no time to exercise this dog... 

and for DoGs sweet sake, _*PLease do NoT  get any bully-breed or muscle-dog whatever 
if U are not already! a dog-savvy owner with some experience of softer, more-biddable breeds ,

and also U must be WILLING to socialize, habituate, and TRAIN to a higher standard than the average pet... 
simply because of their physical strength and independent nature, U must be able and willing to teach them 
happy compliance!*_ :thumbup1:

if U are a breeder - 
_*Please - do not SELL a puppy to an innocently gormless twit, and assure them that Ur line of Central 
Transylvanian Spelunkun Hunden are all self-training and Mensa-members!, to boot;*_ 

and also, dear breeder - *Please - do not BREED dogs, dam or stud, who are hair-trigger or excessively 
object-possessive or otherwise behaviorally problematic! 
no matter HOW pretty they may be... :nono: 
temperament and behavior are key reasons for keeping, or casting aside, any dog or other pet.* 
please do not churn-out dogs that will become liabilities, and will die young.  
our best friends deserve the best from us, and that begins before the litter is even planned. 

best regards, 
--- terry


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## suzy93074

I agree with Izzie....A childs life was lost here!! ok the owners of the dog are ultimately responsible for not being able to control this dog but how come most of the stories u hear about attacking are from these breeds?? I understand what people are saying ,punish the deed not the breed etc but at somepoint the dog also has to be held accountable! there have been lots of stories of dogs being super friendly and then just turning - why does this happen and is that the fault of the owner?


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## fluffybunny2001

usually it`s because they are used as gaurd dogs for family members and aren`t used to having children around.
A screaming child to a dog is very upsetting,you never find out why the dog attacked as there is never anyone around to see the start.
Ultimatley no child should be left with any breed of dog even for a split second.
Unfortuanatley these "breeds" of dogs have been bred to look hard,and they attract certain types of people who use them to make themselves look hard.
They get no socialisation with people,children or other dogs,for the reason that their owners want them to protect them.
I agree its awful that a child died,but unless we know the exact circumstances as to why the dog attacked,and there has to be a reason,we cannot put blame on the dog.
There are going to be people out there with staffies and staffie types,teriified to walk their dogs now for fear of being lynched and thats not fair.The dogs don`t ask to be brought into this world


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## Lulu's owner

suzy93074 said:


> I agree with Izzie....A childs life was lost here!! ok the owners of the dog are ultimately responsible for not being able to control this dog but how come most of the stories u hear about attacking are from these breeds?? I understand what people are saying ,punish the deed not the breed etc but at somepoint the dog also has to be held accountable! there have been lots of stories of dogs being super friendly and then just turning - why does this happen and is that the fault of the owner?


I think the problem is the dangerous combination of irresponsible owner and aggressive dog. Other breeds can be nasty, but maybe owners of labradors tend to have bigger houses and keep their labs and kids apart better than people living in small terraces and housing association places, which is usually the homes where child killing dogs come from. Also, if the middle class labrador owner's dog kills a cat, say, then that owner is likely to be horrified and certainly make a point of keeping their dog away from other animals and children, whereas some of the people who own these staffies think it's all good fun (and I've heard them bragging about it before now).


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## simplysardonic

BeesBella said:


> Overcoming The Reputation - Photos of Pit Bulls and Children | Dog Reflections


Aww these pictures are very sweet


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## Lulu's owner

simplysardonic said:


> Aww these pictures are very sweet


I can understand why there's such confusion about pitbull "types". The dogs on that link all look pretty much alike to me, and they look like most of the staffies in my area, so maybe there are more pitbulls around than we think. It must make more sense to target behaviour (of dog and owner) than the appearance of the dog.


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## suzy93074

Lulu's owner said:


> I think the problem is the dangerous combination of irresponsible owner and aggressive dog. Other breeds can be nasty, but maybe owners of labradors tend to have bigger houses and keep their labs and kids apart better than people living in small terraces and housing association places, which is usually the homes where child killing dogs come from. Also, if the middle class labrador owner's dog kills a cat, say, then that owner is likely to be horrified and certainly make a point of keeping their dog away from other animals and children, whereas some of the people who own these staffies think it's all good fun (and I've heard them bragging about it before now).


Yeah I know where I live there are a lot of owners who think it makes them look tough to have this sort of breed..although saying that one of my neighbours found a staffie and took him home and he is as soft as muck...I must admit Im very wary of them......unfortunatley thats the rep they have.


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## Guest

The answer to me is blinding!

Bring back the dog licence! Then this would never of happened! Im not being funny but that area is very rough. The only real reason to breed pitts in that particular area is to fight them.

200 dogs in that area alone were distroyed since 2007? Pretty sure.

And there are trainers out there that could of delt with this dog. Cesar milan would deff of took that dog on and proved to the world JUDGE THE DEED NOT THE BREED.

Its like saying a black man/white man will kill another person because the colour of their skin makes them aggressive and want to kill anything that moves.

Or fat people turn nasty and want to kill anything that moves. People who are left handed. People who body build, people who cant roll their tongues!

Pathetic blaming aggression on the breed. They blame the wrong end of the lead


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## leashedForLife

re howlDaLoom



> And there are trainers out there that could (have dealt) with this dog.
> Cesar milan would (def have taken) that dog on and proved to the world
> JUDGE THE DEED NOT THE BREED.


hey, howl! :--)

i am not following Ur statement - *this dog DID the deed - he attacked a child, 
for whatever reason we will never know, and the child died within an hour or less, of blood-loss or shock. *

so what would be the point of attempted rehab? 
if he became a perfectly-happy, friendly, bomb-proof dog... WHO would want him? 
the family of the dead child? one of their neighbors? ANYone who knew the dogs history? 
i doubt it, very much. 
maybe someone who had zilch knowledge of this dogs past? *but is that ETHICAL? 
to place an animal who has caused a death, without at least Telling the new owner(s) about that fact? *

re Cesar - 
BAD * RAP of San Francisco has an excellent, long-term success rate with pitties and similar breeds; 
they do take in dogs with bad past-histories, including the VICK-tory dogs given into their custody; 
and they use ZERO of those intimidating, harsh-handling maneuvers of CM/DW. 
yet they have helped former-fighters to become loved + trusted family pets, 
and several Vick-tory dogs are now therapy-dogs, visiting hospitals and other care-giving facilities.

Cesar does not get a whole lotta references from dog-trainers, vet behaviorists, and the like - 
fellow dog-professionals. his fan-base was, and continues to be, pet-owners.

Best Friends, BAD * RAP, the APSCA, hundreds of other organizations, shelters and rescues, 
*** and **** .... individual pos-R trainers like myself ***, ALL use non-confrontational methods to B-Mod any dog, 
of any breed. *safe, sane, simple - and low-stress.*

_*Drama may make good TV - it does not add anything helpful to dog-training, IMO + IME.*_

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Lulu's owner

Howldaloom said:


> The answer to me is blinding!
> 
> Bring back the dog licence! Then this would never of happened!


There is an interesting article in today's Mail (shame about the alarmist headline, the article itself is more nuanced, with quite a lot of input from the RSPCA). It tells you that Wandsworth Council and some other London Councils are lobbying the government for a £500 dog licence fee, minimum age for dog ownership to be twenty. I know that sounds draconian, but what else can be done to stop unpleasant youths using dogs in the way they do? Wandsworth has also become the first council to introduce compulsory microchipping on its estates and has said it will evict tenants who don't keep their dog under control.

Eighteen years after an Act outlawing them... why are the devil dogs still killing our children? | Mail Online


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## simplysardonic

Lulu's owner said:


> Howldaloom said:
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to me is blinding!
> 
> Bring back the dog licence! Then this would never of happened! /QUOTE]
> 
> There is an interesting article in today's Mail (shame about the alarmist headline, the article itself is more nuanced, with quite a lot of input from the RSPCA). It tells you that Wandsworth Council and some other London Councils are lobbying the government for a £500 dog licence fee, minimum age for dog ownership to be twenty. I know that sounds draconian, but what else can be done to stop unpleasant youths using dogs in the way they do? Wandsworth has also become the first council to introduce compulsory microchipping on its estates and has said it will evict tenants who don't keep their dog under control.
> 
> Eighteen years after an Act outlawing them... why are the devil dogs still killing our children? | Mail Online
> 
> 
> 
> There were quite a few damning articles in the DM again, I get the impression they are quite anti-dogs, especially if they are on their 'target list' eg GSDs, Rottweilers, Akitas & anything remotely bull breed
Click to expand...


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## Lulu's owner

simplysardonic said:


> Lulu's owner said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were quite a few damning articles in the DM again, I get the impression they are quite anti-dogs, especially if they are on their 'target list' eg GSDs, Rottweilers, Akitas & anything remotely bull breed
> 
> 
> 
> The Daily Mail are anti-everything, you wouldn't set foot out of your home, or even your bed, if you believed everything they say about what's dangerous. But if you mentally filter out the anti-dog stuff in that particular article, it does have some useful information too, and I found the Wandsworth bit interesting (particularly if you think that the next government may well be Tory and Wandsworth will be able to bend their ear, being a Tory council themselves).
Click to expand...


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## simplysardonic

Lulu's owner said:


> simplysardonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Daily Mail are anti-everything, you wouldn't set foot out of your home, or even your bed, if you believed everything they say about what's dangerous. But if you mentally filter out the anti-dog stuff in that particular article, it does have some useful information too, and I found the Wandsworth bit interesting (particularly if you think that the next government may well be Tory and Wandsworth will be able to bend their ear, being a Tory council themselves).
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, something needs to be done about the yobs who keep these dogs, banning a breed is just going to make them more desirable to these idiots, especially if the reason they are banned is because they are supposedly aggressive. The mentality of these people is aggressive & anything that enhances that image is going to appeal to them
Click to expand...


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## kirksandallchins

A dog liscence won't stop the thugs and their dogs - as has been said, pit bulls have been banned for years in this country but still exist and drug-taking / underage drinking is illegal but still happens.

The police (and politicians) should ensure the existing laws are enforced - why should the general public have to pay a large fee to own a dog when it is a tiny majority who should be banned from dog ownership.


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## Lulu's owner

kirksandallchins said:


> A dog liscence won't stop the thugs and their dogs - as has been said, pit bulls have been banned for years in this country but still exist and drug-taking / underage drinking is illegal but still happens.
> 
> The police (and politicians) should ensure the existing laws are enforced - why should the general public have to pay a large fee to own a dog when it is a tiny majority who should be banned from dog ownership.


Well, part of the problem about pit bulls is the difficulty in identifying precisely what they are (there's another thread at the moment that goes into mind-numbing detail about this subject), whereas a licence is a licence, and obviously it could have photo id and microchip number on it. I'm not saying a £500 fee is an ideal solution, but proper enforcement would have to be paid for somehow. I know it's not fair on the majority of dog owners, myself included, but I'd happily pay it for my 8 lb yorkie IF in return for that payment I could feel safe walking the streets with her. It may be a tiny minority overall, but in my area it is well over half of dog owners.


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## PsyKoViggy

Jack Russels can (and have) kill a baby.

The reason Bull breeds get most the news attention is because they are physically stronger, meaning on the occasions when they do attack a human being the damage they are capable of causing is more than many other breeds.
This is also the reason why idiots buy them to look 'hard'.
Neither of those are the dogs fault, but it does mean they are often kept in situations where aggression can occur (trained to, mistreated and scared, confused and just generally untrained) and can inflict a lot of harm.

I have only ever been bitten by a Yorkshire Terrier. It wasn't in the news because it didn't kill me. That doesn't make the yorkie any less 'vicious' and 'evil' than a pit bull.. (I adore both breeds, just explaining they're equal) just smaller and less powerful.

So yes, my thoughts are with the family, but TWO lives were lost in this incident because of an idiotic man.
Both of these lives were innocent.

I am personally thrilled to hear that the uncle is being tried to manslaughter.

I agree there should be stronger laws on who can own dogs, and DEFINATLY who can breed them. With penalties for litters produced by non-registered and annualy checked breeders.
I also think there should be MUCH stronger penalties for owners whos dogs attack people and owners who abuse their dogs, train them to fight, ect.


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## Lulu's owner

PsyKoViggy said:


> Jack Russels can (and have) kill a baby.
> 
> The reason Bull breeds get most the news attention is because they are physically stronger, meaning on the occasions when they do attack a human being the damage they are capable of causing is more than many other breeds.
> This is also the reason why idiots buy them to look 'hard'.
> Neither of those are the dogs fault, but it does mean they are often kept in situations where aggression can occur (trained to, mistreated and scared, confused and just generally untrained) and can inflict a lot of harm.
> 
> I have only ever been bitten by a Yorkshire Terrier. It wasn't in the news because it didn't kill me. That doesn't make the yorkie any less 'vicious' and 'evil' than a pit bull.. (I adore both breeds, just explaining they're equal) just smaller and less powerful.
> 
> So yes, my thoughts are with the family, but TWO lives were lost in this incident because of an idiotic man.
> Both of these lives were innocent.
> 
> I am personally thrilled to hear that the uncle is being tried to manslaughter.
> 
> I agree there should be stronger laws on who can own dogs, and DEFINATLY who can breed them. With penalties for litters produced by non-registered and annualy checked breeders.
> I also think there should be MUCH stronger penalties for owners whos dogs attack people and owners who abuse their dogs, train them to fight, ect.


Also, I think attacks on other animals should be treated more seriously. Usually these dogs that go on to kill people have been attacking neighbours' cats etc with impunity.


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## MerlinsMum

Lulu's owner said:


> Also, I think attacks on other animals should be treated more seriously. Usually these dogs that go on to kill people have been attacking neighbours' cats etc with impunity.


MANY dogs that kill cats do NOT attack people. Sighthounds, lurchers, greyhounds even some husky types all have very strong prey drive but *rarely if ever* attack _people_.

Many many dogs are capable of killing cats & rabbits etc - it must be made clear that there's a HUGE difference between the drive to attack a small furry animal, and attacking an actual human being.


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## Lulu's owner

MerlinsMum said:


> MANY dogs that kill cats do NOT attack people. Sighthounds, lurchers, greyhounds even some husky types all have very strong prey drive but *rarely if ever* attack _people_.
> 
> Many many dogs are capable of killing cats & rabbits etc - it must be made clear that there's a HUGE difference between the drive to attack a small furry animal, and attacking an actual human being.


OK, fair enough, but it's still not nice behaviour. But the situation I'm talking about is in built up areas where dogs do attack cats, then other dogs, then humans.


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## PsyKoViggy

Lulu's owner said:


> Also, I think attacks on other animals should be treated more seriously. Usually these dogs that go on to kill people have been attacking neighbours' cats etc with impunity.


To be honest, from everything I've seen and read there is a big difference between a dog attacking another dog and a dog attacking a human. Dog's see other dogs differently from how they see humans. Same with cats, they see cats as prey animals.

I have seen my dogs attack rats, mice, rabbits and one of them did catch a neighbourhood cat once (didn't harm it mind..) but they have always been daft as anything towards people. I recon we could have a break in and they'd just be thrilled there was a new person in the house =P

I do agree that there should be a crack down on dogs attacking other dogs, but this isn't really the place to discuss it.
I really don't think there is necessarily a correlation though.


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## Lulu's owner

PsyKoViggy said:


> To be honest, from everything I've seen and read there is a big difference between a dog attacking another dog and a dog attacking a human. Dog's see other dogs differently from how they see humans. Same with cats, they see cats as prey animals.
> 
> I have seen my dogs attack rats, mice, rabbits and one of them did catch a neighbourhood cat once (didn't harm it mind..) but they have always been daft as anything towards people. I recon we could have a break in and they'd just be thrilled there was a new person in the house =P
> 
> I do agree that there should be a crack down on dogs attacking other dogs, but this isn't really the place to discuss it.
> I really don't think there is necessarily a correlation though.


I thought I'd read that in the case we're discussing the dog had been attacking neighbours' cats, though maybe I'm mistaken. I've had personal experience of my mum's dog being seriously attacked by a rottie that had been killing neighbours' cats and eventually it was ordered to be pts by a court because of a really vicious attack on a man, so you can't say there's never a connection, and I'm not trying to say that there always is.


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## MerlinsMum

Lulu's owner said:


> OK, fair enough, but it's still not nice behaviour. But the situation I'm talking about is in built up areas where dogs do attack cats, then other dogs, then humans.


Perhaps the difference is, in those cases, dogs are being deliberately trained to attack cats? Then that would make a difference, because deliberately training _some_ dogs to attack something means they can be encouraged to attack other things.

On the other hand, many greyhounds & lurchers are trained to attack & kill rabbits, some of those will also attack and kill cats, but this group of breeds is one of the least likely to attack people.

A few streets away from me, (I am in one of the most densely populated cities in Europe.... PsyKoViggy will be familiar with it last year a loose Husky tore a cat to pieces in broad daylight in a quiet side-street. A lot of posters went up on poles locally asking for the dog to be ID'd and most of them said "It could be a child next!" which was just so ridiculous and horribly inaccurate... no wonder people are terrified of dogs these days!


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## Lulu's owner

MerlinsMum said:


> Perhaps the difference is, in those cases, dogs are being deliberately trained to attack cats? Then that would make a difference, because deliberately training _some_ dogs to attack something means they can be encouraged to attack other things.
> 
> On the other hand, many greyhounds & lurchers are trained to attack & kill rabbits, some of those will also attack and kill cats, but this group of breeds is one of the least likely to attack people.
> 
> A few streets away from me, (I am in one of the most densely populated cities in Europe.... PsyKoViggy will be familiar with it last year a loose Husky tore a cat to pieces in broad daylight in a quiet side-street. A lot of posters went up on poles locally asking for the dog to be ID'd and most of them said "It could be a child next!" which was just so ridiculous and horribly inaccurate... no wonder people are terrified of dogs these days!


I was just thinking that sometimes the dogs are encouraged by their owners to attack other people's small pets myself. I have mixed feelings about your Husky story, as I really don't think it's OK for a loose dog to tear a cat to pieces. I would be horrified if it happened on my street and I think I would be baying for the dog's blood too!


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## MerlinsMum

Lulu's owner said:


> I was just thinking that sometimes the dogs are encouraged by their owners to attack other people's small pets myself. I have mixed feelings about your Husky story, as I really don't think it's OK for a loose dog to tear a cat to pieces. I would be horrified if it happened on my street and I think I would be baying for the dog's blood too!


 But that was the husky's prey drive, only that... It didn't mean it would ever attack a person. I'm a cat owner and cat lover too, but to hype it up to the extent where mistruths were being bandied about, does nothing but fuel the anti-dog movement.

Think about this, if you wish - I'll turn the question around a bit - a lot of dogs that _have_ bitten or attacked people, are good with cats & small furries and never chase them. So the connection starts to look a bit shaky, no?


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## Lulu's owner

MerlinsMum said:


> But that was the husky's prey drive, only that... It didn't mean it would ever attack a person. I'm a cat owner and cat lover too, but to hype it up to the extent where mistruths were being bandied about, does nothing but fuel the anti-dog movement.
> 
> Think about this, if you wish - I'll turn the question around a bit - a lot of dogs that _have_ bitten or attacked people, are good with cats & small furries and never chase them. So the connection starts to look a bit shaky, no?


Well, I seem to be in a minority of one here, but I still can't help feeling that attacks of whatever sort by dogs that lead to death or serious injury of other people's pets should be taken more seriously from the start, even if you're correct that there is no link with aggression towards humans. I was furious that the dog warden did not take the rottie's (drugdealer) owner to court for injuring my mum's dog, and if they had done so then a man would have been saved from serious injury.


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## staceydawlz

my opinion is that a dog can be abused to a point where its had enough and eventually will take it out on a human if a dog isnt treated right by a person and has been beaten for certain things it wil lose control and attack gota say it could be any type of dog as long as its not treated right!! if a dog is brought up right loved properly it wouldnt have attacked the boy no matter what type of dog or wheather the dog had attacked another animal of any sort!! saying a dog thats attacked cats for instance has a link to attacking humans, i personally think is wrong and way off scale! xx


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## tomkitten'ssissy

You can't blame the dog all of the time.
What about the kids? If a kid pulls a dogs tail and the dog goes for the kid, it's still the dog's fault.
The police were aware of illegal breeding at those premises, but did nothing.
Then it was too late. It's not Dog licences that are needed, its education and crackdown on breeds that are illegal. Not all dog owners are irresponsible and break the law. 
Thugs only have pitbulls and agressive dogs as an extension of their own... thugishness and agression. Apparently thugs would rather have a dangerous breed of dog than carry a knife (i don't know what's worse!) 

If the police did their job in the first place, the tragedy of this child dying my never had happened. But, at first hand, i do know that if an area is rough, the police are too afraid to go there (we used to live in a rough area.) Sad, I know!


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## Snoringbear

Lulu's owner said:


> Also, I think attacks on other animals should be treated more seriously. Usually these dogs that go on to kill people have been attacking neighbours' cats etc with impunity.


Cat's also attack and kill smaller wildlife with impunity. Many dog breeds have been bred and encouraged to do so throughout history whilst being under the control of humans. As many have stated before it is their prey drive. However, I see no point in exacerbating this drive through whatever means in household pets.


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## Lulu's owner

Snoringbear said:


> Cat's also attack and kill smaller wildlife with impunity. Many dog breeds have been bred and encouraged to do so throughout history whilst being under the control of humans. As many have stated before it is their prey drive. However, I see no point in exacerbating this drive through whatever means in household pets.


You have a very fair point. As you imply, the difference is that we don't send our cats out deliberately to kill the neighbour's canary or the local sparrows. However, when it comes down to it, as humans we attach more value to the lives of our cats and children than to wildlife as a whole and as a society we need some regulation of dog ownership, particularly in built up, city settings where there is a pressing need to have control over our animals. I am firmly in the "blame the deed, not the breed" camp but I really don't think the present situation is tolerable. I accept that I may have been mistaken about any overall connection between prey drive and child killing but I still maintain that most of the dogs that have killed children have also been cat killers, which is a separate argument. If next door's dog kills my cat in my garden then I want the owner punished, and I think that a hard line would be in the interests of children too. I don't see how that's anti-dog. If the public image of dogs could be improved as a result of fewer or no child deaths then perhaps the trend towards banning dogs from parks would cease.


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## Guest

I think that attacking animals is serious and should be treated that way.

BUT only animals like horses, sheep, pigs and other livestock should be punished.

A dog who kills other animals doesnt mean that they will eventually kill or hurt people. That in general tends to be the human being and future sereal killers


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## staceydawlz

tomkitten'ssissy said:


> You can't blame the dog all of the time.
> What about the kids? If a kid pulls a dogs tail and the dog goes for the kid, it's still the dog's fault.
> The police were aware of illegal breeding at those premises, but did nothing.
> Then it was too late. It's not Dog licences that are needed, its education and crackdown on breeds that are illegal. Not all dog owners are irresponsible and break the law.
> Thugs only have pitbulls and agressive dogs as an extension of their own... thugishness and agression. Apparently thugs would rather have a dangerous breed of dog than carry a knife (i don't know what's worse!)
> 
> If the police did their job in the first place, the tragedy of this child dying my never had happened. But, at first hand, i do know that if an area is rough, the police are too afraid to go there (we used to live in a rough area.) Sad, I know!


im not blaming the dog! far from it actually! coz its never the dogs fault it is however how they r brought up many responsible people can own a bull breed or banned breed and have it be the nicest natured dog uv met! as for the puuling tail same goes for that a dog brought up around children and brought up right wouldnt be botherd if they had their tail pulled for example my dog would happily sit there while my daughter poked her eyes sat on her put her hand in her mouth pulled and tugged at her and wouldnt mind, i will always stick by its how the dog is brought up obviously there are certain areas that could be left open such as rescues and dogs that have been atacked by other dogs xxx


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## Guest

I like how the cat lovers come out and blast dogs for attacks like this but it is never the dogs fault. What a horrible way for the dog to die being shot surely being PTS would have been more humane, yes I know it did a dreadful thing yadda yadda blah blah but we don't know what had happened in the dogs life whether it was abused etc. This reminds me of Bruce and just brings home how arrogant some people are.


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## MerlinsMum

Buster's Mummy said:


> I like how the cat lovers come out and blast dogs for attacks like this but it is never the dogs fault.


Whoah, where are the cat lovers coming out here? I am a DOG _and_ CAT lover and I can see a lot of balance. Basically if you train your dog to attack cats, it will. If you train it to atack other dogs, it will. If you train it also to attack other people, it will. If it grows up believing just about everything it sees is fair game, then it will even see children as prey.
QED....


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## Lulu's owner

MerlinsMum said:


> Whoah, where are the cat lovers coming out here? I am a DOG _and_ CAT lover and I can see a lot of balance. Basically if you train your dog to attack cats, it will. If you train it to atack other dogs, it will. If you train it also to attack other people, it will. If it grows up believing just about everything it sees is fair game, then it will even see children as prey.
> QED....


Me too. I've made it clear I don't like dogs killing cats but I blame the humans quite consistently. (Incidentally, I noticed that the alsations that killed a man whose inquest was reported in today's papers had prevously broken a poor poodle's back so that it had to be pts, so why was that owner allowed to keep dogs after his DDA prosecution?) I think the dog which killed the child was destroyed in a barbaric way and can only hope that it was shot cleanly. There have been cases where the police have made a godawful bodge of shooting dogs, which must have died in terrible fear and pain.


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## Guest

I based my opinion on a few things i have heard recently and the comment on the first page about evil breeds when it is clear the cat owner has no idea. I have nothing against cats I love all animals but get very peed off when cat lovers automatically call dogs evil or blame the dog when it is never the dogs fault. As it happens I have just finished reading the other 5 pages of comments and agree that more should be done about dogs attacking cats etc but do not agree that there is a link between cat being attacked and humans. I am passionate that if any pet is to be kept it needs love and care but if this is not given and things turn sour its not the pets fault and it makes me very angry when people blame the dog especially when they dislike dogs in the first place!!!!

On the other hand my dog (a hunting breed) plays with teh hamster and has never tried to bite her (we supervise very closely) and my sister lets her rabbbit out with him again with no issues that said when we do have children I will never leave them alone and I always proceed with caution when a child approaches him in the street dogs are not evil the owners are!!!


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## suzy93074

Buster's Mummy said:


> I like how the cat lovers come out and blast dogs for attacks like this but it is never the dogs fault. What a horrible way for the dog to die being shot surely being PTS would have been more humane, yes I know it did a dreadful thing yadda yadda blah blah but we don't know what had happened in the dogs life whether it was abused etc. This reminds me of Bruce and just brings home how arrogant some people are.


Im a cat owner...does that mean we dont have a right to post on this thread? - I agree with most of what you say although as I have said previously im very wary of this breed because of all the stories and deaths of kids,,,,shoot me if u will but imo KIDS need to come first and your attitude of yeah it was a dreadful thing yadda yadda yadda blah blah I find absolutley unbelievable! its as if that is not important! yes its unfortunate the dog had to be shot but imo its even more unfortunate that a young boy of 4 has lost his life before its even begun! and I would think that whatever animal had done it


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## Izzie999

Yes, Im a cat owner so does that give me no right to get upset about what happened to that poor child? You research the times a child has been killed or maimed and see what dogs are usually responsible. Yes its the owners fault normally and Im really glad that the man who owned the dog has been charged with manslaughter. I also hope he is cut off from his family as his actions have caused the death of his nephew! I also hope that Merseyside police are sued as they did not take the report about dog breeding in that house seriously. Sadly it won't bring John Paul Massey back but maybe will make people think twice about illegal breeding of banned breeds.

Izzie


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## ChinaBlue

I agree the responsibility for an animal, such as this dog's actions, lay with the owners and how it has been brought up. One can only assume something must have happened to provoke the dog to such action. Until the dog owners whose pets maul children/adults or even other pets (and I am talking only about those young lads who use these "illegal" breeds to intimidate people etc) are given serious jail sentences I can't see this stopping. I did read that a dog (not necessarily this particular dog) ripped apart a pet cat in the same street earlier in the year. It just sickens me.


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