# Total novice question



## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

Ok, never kept fish, thinking about it for a long time now, even had a small tank for nigh on 10 years while im thinking about it (yeah, big thinker me!  )

Anyway, while thinking I research etc and have watched a few (ok a lot) of vids on youtube and something is standing out. The "big" enthusiasts with multiple huge tanks, breeding set ups etc have bare tanks. No plants, no gravel, no rocks...nothing apart from breeding mops in spawning tanks. I know a lot of this stuff is used for human benefit but is a bare environment really beneficial to the fish? I know fish aren't thought of in the same way that cats, dogs etc are but surely they need a richer environment than 4 glass walls to be truly healthy or am I totally wrong and all tank adds are for aesthetic purposes only?


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Hi, breeding setups often don't have decor as many eggs ate designed to fall to the ground or stick to surfaces like the mops. Gravel plants and other decor can harbour diseases and things like Hydra that can harm the fry.

In normal breeding set ups the adults live in normal tanks with decor plants etc and when ready to breed are pit in breeding tanks to spawn. Once they have spawned they are removed before they can eat eggs or fry. For those fish that care for their fry they are left in the tanks longer to do so.

It is possible to breed fish in a community tank with decor plants etc ( I have raised bristle nose cat fish, kribensis, live bearers and the odd Danio this way but fry losses are high so for a serious breeder the method used above works best.

If you are keen to set up a tank please read up first about fishless cycling and ensure your tank is large enough for the fish you want at their adult size. Also buy a liquid test kit ( api do a good one) and test your tap water to see what fish or will suit.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

Makes sense in the breeding tanks but some have huge bare tanks of juveniles, which obviously aren't ready for breeding yet. I understand that anything added to the tank increases the risk of bacteria etc but surely quality of life should trump all else. Maybe I'm giving fish more emotion than they have? 

Like I said, I'm only thinking of it, the work involved and what happens if you get it slightly wrong is definitely daunting ...I got upset when my friends huge goldfish died aged 8 and 9 years+, although wasn't bad at all for a pair of fairground fish.

If I do set up my tank it will probably be a pair of goldfish but if they grow like my friends did I know I'd need a tank upgrade pretty quick so maybe not...see, so totally undecided.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

I think the big bare tanks of juveniles are to grow them on. Bare tanks are easier to keep clean and catch fish to move them on. However you are right in that most fish appreciate decor. The substrate ( sand gravel etc) needs to suit the fish, eg corys that have barbels and root around for food can get infections which destroy their barbels if they injure them on gravel so sand suits them better as it does for fish that like to dig. Plants or caves provide shelter and break up territories and some fish like places to hide either when they are not active e g bristle nose or to spawn in some cichlids. Some fish don't mind so much though most like something on the base of their tank that isn't too bright and reflective as in nature the substrate is often darker ( there are exceptions)

If you want to keep goldfish I suggest you keep fancies not commons, shubunkins or comets. The latter need to be in a pond as they can grow to a foot ( 30cm) in length in a few years if healthy and happy and not stunted by being kept in too small a tank and their own waste.

Goldfish live for up to 40 years ( mine lived to their mid twenties and had a poor start in life) so your friends fish at 8 or 9 were still youngsters.

Fancies get to grow about the size of one or two tennis balls in diameter. They are very messy fish producing lots of waste so if you want to keep them you will need a large tank (4-5 feet) and a very good filter ( an external with 300litres per hour turnover would be best).

As mentioned previously the filter needs to develop a healthy population of bacteria before buying your fish using fishless cycling. For this you will need pure ammonia and it will take 4 - 5 weeks. Please ignore any pet shops that tell you the filter is good to go after a week. They know nothing about the nitrogen cycle and all their advice does is make the filter wet.

Whilst goldfish can be kept with plants they love ( eating) and killing them so are often kept with silk or plastic plants. They need regular feed of veg ( peas work well) to keep their digestion healthy.

Whilst I love goldfish the fact that they live so long if properly kept means I won't keep any more as they might well outlive me . I prefer Tropical's as they don't need a huge tank, and most typical barbs and tetras live for about 6 or 8 years though my bristle nose is 13 years.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

Thanks for your comprehensive replies, much appreciated.

I didn't realise goldfish lived that long, I don't think 99% of goldfish bought get anywhere near even my friends 9 years. Shame that animal welfare is so lacking when it comes to fish.

I do like tetras but I loved the blue gouramis that he had, they were very inquisitive fish and would "nibble" my fingers and ignore the food I was giving them but I know my sized tank would not be big enough for them so it will probably be tinies only, if and when I ever do decide to go for it....like 7 cats isn't enough!


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Good that you're researching before thinking about actually getting fish  As above, if your tank is small then tropicals would be better (and generally easier) than goldfish. What size is the tank? If it's very small (around 25-30L) then a single betta (Siamese fighting fish) may be a good option for you. They're in the same family as the gouramis you mentioned above, and have great personalities and will nibble your fingers etc - some people even teach them tricks! They do best in a tank on their own, though, so if you wanted several fish then a shoal of 'tinies' might be better - if you let us know your tank size and whether you have hard or soft water, I'm sure folks here could come up with some suggestions


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

It is a very small tank, 25 litres. It was bought as a present for me and i've put it away while thinking about it (for 10 years!!!). The siamese fighting fish are stunning and I like the idea of them being a little more interactive so one is an option but I think i'm more inclined to go for a little shoal of tetras, barbs or danios, should make for more interesting cat tv ....I just know i'll end up getting a bigger tank once I start though so I will probably think a while longer yet. Figure out which furniture to dump to make room for starters.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi Polski, Your 25l will be to small for barbs or danios. Barbs would be to big and danios are very quick swimming fish so need the space to zoom about. I think tetras are speedy little things also! If you do set up your 25l you could try shrimp maybe I keep looking at shrimp set ups. Bettas are lovely fish I have one, very interactive and trainable. Mine is in a largish tank on his own, there are many differing opinions on the minimum size for a betta tank but if your 25 is traditional shape not tall and narrow it should be fine for a solitary betta.
Before getting set on any fish, either for your little tank or any future large tanks, it is best to know what type of water you have, if soft, how soft? likewise if hard, how hard? You can find that info on line from your water company.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm in Brum, as far as I can tell from this its soft
"Hardness Level Soft No Standard Applies
Hardness Clark 2.80 No Standard Applies Degrees Clark
Hardness French 4.00 No Standard Applies French Degrees
Hardness German 2.24 No Standard Applies"

I think I'll forget that tank, its just too small it seems, its a hexagonal one, probably slightly taller than it is wide although its a while since i've seen it out of its box but the box is slightly taller than the width. If I ever set up a tank it can be kept as an emergency spare, better than a washing up bowl or saucepan eh...both of which i've seen used in cracked tank incidents.

Why am I even thinking of this...I have 7 cats and 2 manchild sons still at home. Off me blooming rocker!


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

That little tank would make a great shrimp tank with some Cherry, Bee, Chrystal or other freshwater shrimp. I agree a bigger tank would be better for fish plus you get to have a range of different fish if you get community tropical's. Mine is 4 ft long (180 litres) and I would love to go bigger but have no space. Just to warn you fish keeping becomes addictive.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

I always thought most fish* were a bit "meh" until I was introduced to my friends and then I changed my mind. His goldfish had distinctly different personalities but they preferred me to him, probably because I would bring them treats as opposed to fish flakes all the time.

His tropical tank was less interesting until the gouramis arrived, his albino catfish were shy, his red tailed shark was too and I barely saw his lobster before it died mid shed. His tank was way too small for what he had in there and I spent a long time trying to persuade him to upgrade, improve their diet, do more frequent water changes etc etc so I know just what I'd be like...probably why i'm still thinking of it.


*Years and years ago my uncle had 3 tanks, each the width of his room, floor to about 5ft (maybe more, I was tiny and couldn't see in the top tank even standing on the step stool he kept for cleaning it out). Top tank was tropical but the other 2 were reef tanks and I used to sit there for the duration of our visits just staring at them. Seahorses, starfish, anemones....as well as all the beautiful fish and corals.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

If you want fish with character and personality then most cichlids would suit you. They are very interactive with their humans and generally have interesting breeding behaviours. The small cichlids such as angels, apistogammas, kribensis and rams all have distinct personalities as do the larger ones like Severums etc. Especially if they pair bond. Other fish that are characters are puffer fish. Though they don't do well generally with other fish.

If you want something small and different a pair of freshwater gobies like stiphodon exhibit interesting behaviours, especially trying to attract a mate and defend their territory ( the show the fish a mirror trick gets a great display).

Goldfish are pretty smart too. When I went to university my mum used to feed and care for mine. She used to feed them every morning and they would do a little wiggle dance if she entered my bedroom to feed them. When I was home for holidays I used to feed them in the evening. When I entered the room in the evening I would get the feed me dance.

If my mum entered the room in the evening or I entered the room in the morning then no dance happened so they could tell us apart and knew whether they were likely to be fed or not.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

kittih said:


> Goldfish are pretty smart too. When I went to university my mum used to feed and care for mine. She used to feed them every morning and they would do a little wiggle dance if she entered my bedroom to feed them. When I was home for holidays I used to feed them in the evening. When I entered the room in the evening I would get the feed me dance.
> 
> If my mum entered the room in the evening or I entered the room in the morning then no dance happened so they could tell us apart and knew whether they were likely to be fed or not.


My friend always his goldfish never wiggled for him and I thought he was joking but all they ever used to get off him was fish flakes but they got cucumber, brine shrimp and blood worms from me...They obviously did the wiggle in anticipation of the better stuff! The bigger one used to take half my little finger in his mouth and try dragging it down to the bottom of the tank, not sure what that was about...perhaps me having hair the same colour as him confused him (or her) ....How do you sex a goldfish?

I keep looking at tanks and then stands and then the room and being wistful but I think they are a while off


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

I think they can tell who brings the good stuff. Perhaps they thought your finger was good to eat also 

It is quite difficult to tell males and females apart of they are not in breeding condition but generally males are slimmer especially around the abdomen. Males at breeding time also show small white spots on their gill covers called tubercles.


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