# Not the news we wanted about Cooper



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Havent posted much about Cooper lately, i know a few are concerned about him so will bring you up to date

Coopers resource guarding has got a little better, he still pinches things, but i can normally take them from him and always give him something else, he wears a line and as long as he is stopped from retreating into a corner we haven't had a growl for a while HOWEVER he does ocassionally get arsey, and today stole my uniform from the side, i grabbed it and asked him to drop, and he just growled, i didn't let go, but didn't advance and we were in a stand off until i popped the microwave door open and he sat like an innocent puppy, he sometimes behaves like this with his dog bed aswell.

Sometimes he will let you take it and then attempt to "floor" you as you walk off and jump and bite, it does appear that this is more boisterous than agressive though.

He is getting worse for growling and jumping up and biting, however scary this sounds, i never really feel threatened by him, and however inappropriate it is, i don't believe it's aggression, we always walk away when possible and ignore him if he does it, but please bare in mind he's knocking on for 50kg and sometimes has to be pushed off or kneed off. He does growl when playing tug, but will drop on command, after speaking to a few DDB people they can be "growly" i don't believe it's always meant to be agressive, he will growl at us if left in the hallway through the gate, if i open and walk past he jumps up, and paws and mouths as if for attention more than anything else, he's only praised when all 4 are on the floor, but will resort to jumping again as soon as you stop fussing him.

Most worryingly he has growled a few times at my gf for no apparent reason, and a couple of weeks back in the morning the kids tried to pass him and open the strairgate to come upstairs and he growled, i promptly ejected him into the garden. 

Yesterday we had a nightmare 4 hour journey to see the orphapedic specialist, i muzzled cooper for the whole journey.

Our vet was also there that day, Coop doesn't like him and let him know in the waiting room, but was otherwise good for the journey and the waiting room.

He didn't want to go in the room, and when they watched him walk outside it was difficult as he was constantly trying to de muzzle. He asked if i took the muzzle off could i get it back on, to which i replied in about 2 weeks!

He was examined in the room, i had his head, 3 of us had to hold him whilst the specialist examined him, Coop swung his head around for a bite 3 times, my face was by his, he didn't want me his beef was with the specialist.

On examining the x rays he said it was as bad hip dysplasia he has ever seen on his left hip, his right is fine BUT he didn't feel Cooper was in discomfort on examination, his walk was ok, his bad leg is well muscled, possibly even more than his good leg.

He said the scan is horrific, but it's not affecting him, he's coping and using it, he doesn't react when it's extended.

He was almost certain the operation would not affect his aggression, he believes he is "just an aggressive dog" and therefore would not currently be a candidate for a near future hip replacement, and may never need one, because it isn't bothering him.

Im absolutely gutted, his last chance was the hip op and it looks like it would be a pointless exercise. 

I thought i would update you, please don't be offended if i don't reply quickly, im not being ignorant, iv'e got alot of people to speak to about cooper and have lots of thinking to do.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Im so sorry you didnt get the result you wanted  I know this was a lifeline to your family thinking the aggression was pain related. I relly dont know ht to say. I cannot imagine the strain this is having on your family


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm so sorry  this has all been a constant struggle and battle for you, hasn't it 

I really don't know what else to say, I just hope something turns in yours & Coopers favour soon x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

So sorry the prognosis of cooper being able to have the hip replacement isnt good and that it seems to be such a bad dysplasia too.

Really wish there was more I could say or do Reg, If I lived nearer and didnt have my lot, I would even volunteer to take him for awhile and see if I could work on his problems I would be certainly willing to have a go, but there is no way Kobi would put up with an entire male DDB in his home or else I would be willing to.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> So sorry the prognosis of cooper being able to have the hip replacement isnt good and that it seems to be such a bad dysplasia too.
> 
> Really wish there was more I could say or do Reg, If I lived nearer and didnt have my lot, I would even volunteer to take him for awhile and see if I could work on his problems I would be certainly willing to have a go, but there is no way Kobi would put up with an entire male DDB in his home or else I would be willing to.


I would be willing to do the same if necessary. Or if you can afford it I believe Vislor do residential training.

http://www.vislor.com/dog-trainers/pet-training-hereford/residential-dog-training/


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Sorry to hear you're still struggling.

Can't really add any constructive advice, just sending you all best wishes


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

What a bitter disapointment. It seemed so obvious that he was in pain and that this was making him grumpy. Heaven knows pain makes me grumpy.

At least you haven't had to go ahead with surgery and its hideous rehabilitation. I've absolutely no experience of it myself I'm just basing "hideous" on Malmum and Flynn's experience. I thought when I read it what a sweet boy Flynn was/is to manage all that. It would be hell with a dog that was angry.

Poor, poor Cooper and poor you.

I wish you all the very best for rehabilitating Cooper's behaviour. I'm no expert and have no "pearls of wisdom" just the greatest admiration for your tenacity. To be honest (and flame, who will) I would have given up. Cooper, bless him, makes Rex look easy.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Horrific scan, bad HD yet not a candidate for the op?  Not heard that before!

Sorry you're still having problems, I would (and did) e mail the x rays to FR stating what the other guy said. HD does not get better only worse so it doesn't make sense. The ball's in your court and I don't envy the position you're in. So hard on you and such a terrible shame! 

Good luck with whatever you decide. x

ETA - It's easy for me to say take the surgical option, Flynn is a very good natured dog but if you think in your heart of hearts that you couldn't manage a post op Coops then its a no go. Unlike you I didn't have young children to consider and your re hab would be so much more difficult - I understand that completely Reg


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Just wanted to say that Im sorry the news re Cooper wasnt better. You and your GF have given your all to Coopers issues....if things dont work out.....always know you did your very best and thats all anyone can do.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2012)

This is breaking my heart. I cannot follow the logic of that vet. Will you PLEASE go to Fitzharding??? 

I find it insane to go to anyone else when it is impportant, and truthfully, a lot of what you are describing, as possible aggression, in most dogs is playfulness. PLEASE get his op done, then try to find someone to foster him, with you as owner. I really think a lot of problems are based on you not being confident enough to tell his heavyhanded playfulness and his real aggression based on his pain. I SO WISH I could take him, as a foster, as if you abandon him, now, no one will pay for his op and he will die. Once his work was done, on both hips, just sign him over to a great home.

Honestly redginald, I'm just SO upset by what you write. Can you tell me how it is that Coops is swinging around to get at the Specialist, THAT YOU SAY YOURSELF, SAY THAT HE ISN'T TRYING TO GET AT YOU, but at the specialist, so clearly, their manipulation is hurting and making him aggressive, or even the fear of it, and then you go along with the vet saying he's just an aggressive dog and it has nothing to do with his hips. I think he bluffed you long ago and you don't know how to tell. Some of it sounds as tho he's wanting to play, but you are so unsure, you can't tell, so it is dangerous for you to even try.

He needs to go to a very experienced dog owner, but for Coop's LIFE, he needs those ops on his hips, so he can go to a new home. If he goes to a new home, he will not get those hips covered, and it is impossible to ask strangers to pay the full price of 2 hip ops, for a dog they don't know.

I TRULY think the best thing you can do is get the ops done, and then get him fostered or rehomed. This last description of Coops makes him just sound like a suffering dog, living in pain, with no one understanding him, or even getting his jokes. I know you have children, and you can't take chances, and I'm not saying persevere, just go to Fitzharding. Go to another vet. I'm not the only one who thinks your vet sounds a MUPPET. I'm just the only one who is saying it up front. Go to Fitzharding, for the love of your dog, get him fixed, and then find a rehome rescue specialist for big dogs, or an experienced handler of strong, large dogs, and hand him over. BUT, unless they will 'mind' your dog, whilst you are the owner, and having the work done, his ops will be too expensive to take him on and save his life.

The behaviour you describe, to be said his hips are the worst ever seen, and advise NOT to do the work, IS mindboggling. I feel your vet doesn't want to deal with your dog, anyway, and would love him gone. Fitzharding has dealt with far more aggressive dogs. I just want to shriek with frustration. 

NOT ALL VETS ARE COMPETENT IN ALL THINGS. You have been told the very best to evaluate Coops, and once more, you ignore it, and follow this local vets witterings. HOW OLD IS COOPS? How long has he been with this vet, who NEVER checked his hips, until pushed to? Clearly there was a lot to see, from early on. How many people kept telling you to have those checks, on here? Yet the vet who is writing your dog off, never thought of it?

I SO wish I could mind him through the whole process, and at the end, keep him, and you get a dog far more suitable for your family.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Well all I can say is, if his hip is as bad as the vet says, it should be sorted. I cannot understand the logic of "it's not bothering him". How the hell does he know that? It is perfectly possible that Cooper's hip has hurt for so long that he has learned to compensate and his threshold for pain is higher. I am still of the opinion that his aggression stems for this pain and I think it would be very wrong to give up without trying.

I have nerve damage in my back and it hurts ALL THE TIME. There is never five minutes in my life when it doesn't hurt, but no one but me knows that because I have learned to live with it. Sometimes it is a lot worse, but most of the time it is lurking about and I have ceased to notice.

I think Cooper is the same. I cannot believe that a hip that bad does not hurt at all, especially with a dog of that weight.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Redginald, I am so sorry that things didn't work out as you had hoped. You are certainly being put through it at every turn with Coops.

Kilo went through a phase of jumping and biting at me - it was when he was way too stimulated and his self control just deserted him. It did stop with management and working on some impulse control with him.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2012)

Sorry to hear the news Redginald


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

So sorry to hear this. I'm in agreement with everyone else though - I think the op should be done, it will only get worse and unless it's done you'll never know and you'll probably regret it if you decide you have to rehome him without exhausting all options, you've tried so hard and been so patient, this last stumbling block should be exhausted too and if it doesn't help things I don't think there's much choice but to contact a breed rescue.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Redginald, I am so sorry that things didn't work out as you had hoped. You are certainly being put through it at every turn with Coops.
> 
> Kilo went through a phase of jumping and biting at me - it was when he was way too stimulated and his self control just deserted him. It did stop with management and working on some impulse control with him.


This. Mine was exactly the same- i was bruised from wrist to elbow with his mouthing- if he was not getting his own way he would launch face height at you. He was however 20kg less weight and i did not have kids to worry about, I also had the time to work on his issues daily.

I would have thought the vet would have given him something for pain (he must be in a bit of low level pain if his hip is that bad) if he did not want to operate.


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## theothersparticus (Jan 8, 2012)

Sorry to hear the news, but I agree with newfiesmum, Malmum and househens have already said, Cooper sounds like he was in pain with the manipulation of his leg and I can't understand how a dog could have the worst HD they've ever seen and NOT be a candidate for surgery?

Dog can endure terrible pain with minimal fuss, can you get a second opinion on the hip replacement?


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

In an ideal world perhaps it would be right to do the hip surgery. I don't know.

I think there's a good chance that the rehabilitation would be a nightmare for Cooper. Again I don't know. Malmum's description of Flynn's surgery and rehabilitation is *inspiring *but it was under very different circumstances. Flynn is a sweetheart and Malmum was able to devote every waking hour to Flynn and sleep near him. He had and more importantly he NEEDED the total love, care and time of his favourite person. How do people struggling with work, bills and young children do this? What effect would prolonged confinement, pain and close proximity to people do to Cooper who is a very different personality?

What happens if the surgery goes ahead and Cooper doesn't cope with the trauma? Is he to be drugged or physically restrained for _that_ long? How is he to be rehabilitated mentally if it does distress him? He is NOT an easy dog, now what happens if all this makes him worse?

Is Cooper to be in a large "cage" as Malmum had Flynn? Will it fit in the house? Is there room to keep Cooper away from the young children? Will the noise of young children and their activities distress him? How will people who work/care for children manage sleeping near Cooper? What happens if a child is ill at the same time?

It's all very well to say that Cooper should have surgery; perhaps he should. Honestly guys, it doesn't look easy. Check out Malmum's diary.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

ozrex said:


> In an ideal world perhaps it would be right to do the hip surgery. I don't know.
> 
> I think there's a good chance that the rehabilitation would be a nightmare for Cooper. Again I don't know. Malmum's description of Flynn's surgery and rehabilitation is *inspiring *but it was under very different circumstances. Flynn is a sweetheart and Malmum was able to devote every waking hour to Flynn and sleep near him. He had and more importantly he NEEDED the total love, care and time of his favourite person. How do people struggling with work, bills and young children do this? What effect would prolonged confinement, pain and close proximity to people do to Cooper who is a very different personality?
> 
> ...


So very sorry such a bitter disappointment after how hard you have battled. Above says everything else I would say - Cooper has been a difficult dog all along and to rehabilitate him after a major op alongside young children, well I do not envy you the difficult decisions you have to make. Best of luck whatever you decide


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ozrex said:


> In an ideal world perhaps it would be right to do the hip surgery. I don't know.
> 
> I think there's a good chance that the rehabilitation would be a nightmare for Cooper. Again I don't know. Malmum's description of Flynn's surgery and rehabilitation is *inspiring *but it was under very different circumstances. Flynn is a sweetheart and Malmum was able to devote every waking hour to Flynn and sleep near him. He had and more importantly he NEEDED the total love, care and time of his favourite person. How do people struggling with work, bills and young children do this? What effect would prolonged confinement, pain and close proximity to people do to Cooper who is a very different personality?
> 
> ...


I agree with this and I really disagree with what Househens has said. This dog just is not working out, he has a big attitude problem and is not being managed. There is going to be an accident. Tell me, what would be said if there was an article about a dog having attacked a child when it was known there had been many warnings in the past. The owner would be totally denigrated.
I think it is coming over that Reginald is coming round to this way of thinking - please do not put him off being responsible. And as for rehoming, that would certainly not be a responsible outcome. There is only one end for this poor dog - none of us will ever know how it has come about that he has ended up like this but with health/pain problems and his temperament it is just not fair on anyone to keep going with him.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

HI!

So i don't really know the whole back story, but sorry about his hip!

Hmm just re the growling:

My dog sounds rabid when we play- this is ALL play all of it.
He will approach other people with a toy in his mouth with a low growl/sometimes a bark for play- or sometimes he'll have a wee grumble as he sits on the floor and looks at you (trying to engage in play) . I know it's play cause i know him inside out- i didn't know this when i first got him and was quite cagey/took a while to get used to.

I've never heard him properly growl as a warning/aggression to another dog- but I have heard his reactive bark that has occasionally happened on leash, dogs have had a right go at him- whilst most of that is barking- in between in his 'real growl'

Do you notice a difference between these growls aimed at the vet/consultant and those aimed at your family?

I'm not saying this to be difficult- i genuinely am interested. Especially as i'm unfamiliar with the breed and so would be concerned myself (as i was when i took my adolescent staff cross home- of whom we knew no background)- all the more so if you have kids in the house.

Has he ever bitten anyone?


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

am sorry things are not turning out as you wanted but I hope you can get something sorted for the poor boy very soon


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I agree with this and I really disagree with what Househens has said. This dog just is not working out, he has a big attitude problem and is not being managed. There is going to be an accident. Tell me, what would be said if there was an article about a dog having attacked a child when it was known there had been many warnings in the past. The owner would be totally denigrated.
> I think it is coming over that Reginald is coming round to this way of thinking - please do not put him off being responsible. And as for rehoming, that would certainly not be a responsible outcome. There is only one end for this poor dog - none of us will ever know how it has come about that he has ended up like this but with health/pain problems and his temperament it is just not fair on anyone to keep going with him.


I agree to an extent, none of us really know how Coops is reacting whilst in the home or towards Reg's GF & children. Ultimately it is up to Reginald to look at all the pro's & cons, how the situation can best be managed for everyone & then make a decision of what he wants to do.

Every situation is different & people will act according to what is best for them, their family & their dog.

I realise that Reginald has alot to think about at the moment but really hope he can make a decision based on what is best for everyone


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I agree with this and I really disagree with what Househens has said. This dog just is not working out, he has a big attitude problem and is not being managed. There is going to be an accident. Tell me, what would be said if there was an article about a dog having attacked a child when it was known there had been many warnings in the past. The owner would be totally denigrated.
> I think it is coming over that Reginald is coming round to this way of thinking - please do not put him off being responsible. And as for rehoming, that would certainly not be a responsible outcome. There is only one end for this poor dog - none of us will ever know how it has come about that he has ended up like this but with health/pain problems and his temperament it is just not fair on anyone to keep going with him.


Just because the dog does not respond to this particular set up/ handler does not mean there is not someone out there who could handle him, and improve him, and make him into a well balanced dog.

Obviously finding this sort of home could be next to impossible- so agree that Reg has to do the responsible thing if all other avenues have been explored.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Im so sorry about this reg.

My thoughts go out to you. Cant say anything better then ozrex really. I thought it may be too much for him the vets and especially your partner and you on the aftermath.

Looking at malmums diary it looks bloodu hard. I could have done it all with my last boy billy but i dont think alfie would just sit there and be caged and have the op and breeze through it.

I hope you all are ok. X


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm really sorry to hear about Cooper, and I hope you don't mind me saying for all those lurking and reading, that your threads are an important reminder about why temperament is so important when it comes to breeding, not just the health tests. Like Blitz, I wouldn't pass Cooper on to anyone except the most experienced of dog handlers who has the time to deal with the situation, and can possibly afford the hip replacement op, and that is going to be a big ask, there are hundreds, possibly thousands off dogs already waiting for such a magical owner to pop up. No one can fault you for all the effort you've made to get things right with this dog, you've worked as hard as possible, but temperament is partly inherited and there is sometimes only so much you can do unfortunately. I would say return him to the breeder as it would be good for them to have to see/experience a small part of the suffering you've been going through, but I'd be concerned he would be passed on and become someone elses problem. 

I really am so sorry to see things end up with you facing this sort of decision, I don't envy you at all.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

redginald said:


> Havent posted much about Cooper lately, i know a few are concerned about him so will bring you up to date
> 
> Coopers resource guarding has got a little better, he still pinches things, but i can normally take them from him and always give him something else, he wears a line and as long as he is stopped from retreating into a corner we haven't had a growl for a while HOWEVER he does ocassionally get arsey, and today stole my uniform from the side, i grabbed it and asked him to drop, and he just growled, i didn't let go, but didn't advance and we were in a stand off until i popped the microwave door open and he sat like an innocent puppy, he sometimes behaves like this with his dog bed aswell.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear this as you have given him every chance.
I didn't comment on your earlier theads, but in all honesty, I did doubt the hips were causing the behaviour problems. While health issues can cause behavioural problems, there are plenty of dogs with HD that do not have behaviour issues. Much more apparent was the fact he came from a byb who clearly paid no attention to temperament (wasn't there another forum member who got a puppy from the same litter and had temperament problems?) and in spite of your best efforts, the best thing would be to pts. You have tried so hard, but it would be irresponsible to rehome him.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Don't have anything else to add, sorry. Very sorry to hear the vets' aren't willing to operate though, I thought it was their duty to relieve suffering in animals. Are they saying this because of his temperament I wonder. 

I don't envy you one little bit, poor Cooper and you.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

8tansox said:


> Don't have anything else to add, sorry. Very sorry to hear the vets' aren't willing to operate though, I thought it was their duty to relieve suffering in animals. *Are they saying this because of his temperament I wonder*.
> 
> I don't envy you one little bit, poor Cooper and you.


I would also think that's why they're saying that- also maybe because they don't think his hips are giving him grief/causeing the problem.

Imagine going through the op only to dicover that is not what is causing the problem and then having to pursue other avenues/consider pts- vets making an ethical decision right there for the good of the animal


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

What I would say is that if you had taken Coop to Noel Fitzpatrick he'd have had his new hip by now. Been kept in that day and done. 8stansox knows as I do that Noel would never have sent him home with hip in the condition you say Coops is. You can't tell if a dog is in pain just because he doesn't yell out on examination, some give more subtle signs - as I believe Coops had. There is no way that degree of HD can not be painful!

I am completely baffled as to why your vet was there  that's just not normal! The whole set up has always sounded dodgy, like the two of them are scared to have anything to do with Coops because he is aggressive. I have to say I think your vet is incompetent, didn't want to say it before but have had pm's saying the same. No vet travels a long journey to go to a referral, there is simply no need - I mean what are these two? relatives or something? They are vets not behaviourists - again who are they to assess him, that's not their field at all!

At the end of the day your dog is your dog and YOU say what you want done. If he wasn't a candidate for surgery then fair enough but he is, a very deserving one IMO. I wish there were someone who could manage him post op, I had said to a pup owner of mine that if she needed a THR I would post op nurse her. Luckily it wasn't a hip problem but I just wish there were a DDB owner who could do this for Coop and perhaps take him on afterwards once he has recovered and the insurance is sorted.
Noel may have managed him for you post op, they offer that service and the GSD's owner left him there for a week, I believe they will board for much longer though. Without seeing Noel you'd never know now!

Flynn's dislocation was a nightmare it's true, the two major 2 1/2 hour ops in seven days took it's toll on him, the anaesthetics too were bad as Mals don't take kindly to anaesthetics but look at the other dogs. One woman who was alone, works full time and had recently had one of her kidneys removed managed the post op nursing, another woman who was 36 weeks pregnant managed the nursing both pre and post natal so it doesn't always mean it will be like Fynns second op - not at all! Add to that sedation and there's not any real problem that we on the diary have seen.

I don't know your age Reg. but it does seem like you let people tell you what to do, I suppose as we get older we become more dogmatic, more assertive in some way. I have said in pm's I wouldn't touch your vet with a barge pole and I wouldn't. As soon as he started telling me where I could be referred I'd have been out of there like a shot - that just not protocol for him to do that, that's YOUR choice!

Coops needs a self asserted owner and I agree with househens in that I have believed you are afraid of him, have been for a long time. That's why I pm'd about Terry the Mal guy who deals with stroppy dogs, all the treats etc have got you no where and sometimes there needs a different approach with some stronger breeds, not alpha rolling but certainly not 'sucking up' to them and showing yourself as weak. With Terry and Noel you may have had a better all round dog but we can only advise there's nothing more any of us can do.

It's tough for you I know, my only hope is there is someone out there who will nurse Coop post op then take him on but with so many afraid of the op and post recovery nursing of a THR it seems doubtful. If I had better dogs than Mals I may have considered it but my lot would hate a big, clumbersome DDB in their house, lol. There are seven dogs so far on my hip replacement diary and only one who had complications, in hindsight I blame myself for allowing him to rise un aided as he couldn't at that time weight bear which is what popped the hip out - nothing to do with the surgery gone wrong but the after care. 

Just wish someone was brave enough to take him on, you get the op done on his insurance, they do the nursing and at the end you both decide where to go from there, that would be ideal. Any offers out there?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Malmum im not sure it is dodgy.

I think regs vet is learning from the surgeon which would explain why he was there.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> Malmum im not sure it is dodgy.
> 
> I think regs vet is learning from the surgeon which would explain why he was there.


That is all the more reason I find it dodgy. The vet appears to want to learn for his own sake more than get Coop to a surgeon where he wouldn't be involved. If he wants to learn he should be an intern somewhere like Fitzpatrick referrals, he has trainee's present at his surgeries all the time but they aren't primary care vets, they give up their practice to train as orthopaedic surgeons, just like in our hospitals. They don't juggle the two around and deny patients the freedom of choice we get with our animals as well as ourselves. That's just not on, especially when it's in their interests and not the animals!


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

ozrex said:


> In an ideal world perhaps it would be right to do the hip surgery. I don't know.
> 
> I think there's a good chance that the rehabilitation would be a nightmare for Cooper. Again I don't know. Malmum's description of Flynn's surgery and rehabilitation is *inspiring *but it was under very different circumstances. Flynn is a sweetheart and Malmum was able to devote every waking hour to Flynn and sleep near him. He had and more importantly he NEEDED the total love, care and time of his favourite person. How do people struggling with work, bills and young children do this? What effect would prolonged confinement, pain and close proximity to people do to Cooper who is a very different personality?
> 
> ...


I would agree with this, I think dealing with the post-op would be very hard work and may not be feasible for all families. It may also set back Coops socialisation and training further and make the situation worse, there is no guarantee the surgery will solve all Coops problems.

Is Coops on painkillers? If not could the vet prescribe something that you could try to see how his behaviour is and then work out if the pain is having any effect? It may give an indication of how he would behave after the op when free from pain? I know they have side effects but it may be worth it for a few weeks just to make a decision as to how much the pain is contributing to his other problems?



Malmum said:


> That is all the more reason I find it dodgy. The vet appears to want to learn for his own sake more than get Coop to a surgeon where he wouldn't be involved. If he wants to learn he should be an intern somewhere like Fitzpatrick referrals, he has trainee's present at his surgeries all the time but they aren't primary care vets, they give up their practice to train as orthopaedic surgeons, just like in our hospitals. They don't juggle the two around and deny patients the freedom of choice we get with our animals as well as ourselves. That's just not on, especially when it's in their interests and not the animals!


Surely if this was truely dodgy Reg's vet would be really pushing for Coops to have the surgery so he could have more involvement? Perhaps the vet is wanting to follow a few cases and see if orthopaedics is something he really wants to give up his practise for to re-train, it is not a decision anyone would take lightly and some work-experience type shadowing is maybe helping him make the decision? 

Reg this is a truely horrible situation to be in and whatever decision you make you will not be judged or vilified by me, you have to make the decision based on you, your family, Coops and what is best for everyone involved.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Feel for you, really I do. Sounds like a very difficult situation and very difficult decisions to be made, I don't blame you for being wary around him, its very natural especially with children involved, but probably not the best attitude to have around a dog like him. I hope that perhaps people might learn that these breeds are not to taken on lightly (sorry not trying to be harsh I have no idea of your background).

It all sounds like one nasty catch 22 situation. Giving you lots of supportive thoughts, not a decision or position I would want to be in.

As you have come so far, I partly agree with others in that surely a second opinion is called for, it sounds odd that if his HD is that bad that they think he isn't in pain but I know nothing about HD, but if the stress of getting him places is too much for both you and Coop then thats tricky to sort out.

On the OH the posters saying how difficult it would be for you personally to get him through recovery are quite right, it sounds like it would be an immense task to take on, he will certainly be in pain then and if he really is this grumpy without pain (if this is true) then what on earth will he be like with it.

I guess the best scenario is if you can find someone to take him on post op with the view to keeping him if things don't go as well as hoped and he can't come back to you, then just see how it pans out, but thats a big ask.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

You're quite right GR it is a big ask for someone to deal with a post op dog they don't even know but many dogs behave totally differently when not around their owners so it actually could turn out to be easier, that wouldn't be known unless tried and finding someone to take on that responsibility is hard. 

If the surgeon involved is not confident enough to do the op then thats his decision for whatever reason. Like I said before going to Noel from where Reg lives would have been less of a journey than I had with Flynn, just over two hours on google maps, been less epic than where he went - another reason I find the vets choice a selfish one. Just because the vet wants to learn is no reason not to give Coops the best chance at surgery. A wasted journey for all concerned with a devastating out come for Reg, his family and Coops. No doubt this vet will eventually suggest pts without ever knowing if surgery could have righted Coops problems. Such a shame for everyone in this situation, none more so than a young dog like Coop. 

Sorry all this stuff had to happen for you Reg. I know your heart is in the right place and you must be beside yourself with worry and sadness. Awful awful situation for you to find yourself in after all you went through with Redd too!


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> You're quite right GR it is a big ask for someone to deal with a post op dog they don't even know *but many dogs behave totally differently when not around their owners so it actually could turn out to be easier*, that wouldn't be known unless tried and finding someone to take on that responsibility is hard.
> 
> If the surgeon involved is not confident enough to do the op then thats his decision for whatever reason. Like I said before going to Noel from where Reg lives would have been less of a journey than I had with Flynn, just over two hours on google maps, been less epic than where he went - another reason I find the vets choice a selfish one. Just because the vet wants to learn is no reason not to give Coops the best chance at surgery. A wasted journey for all concerned with a devastating out come for Reg, his family and Coops. No doubt this vet will eventually suggest pts without ever knowing if surgery could have righted Coops problems. Such a shame for everyone in this situation, none more so than a young dog like Coop.
> 
> Sorry all this stuff had to happen for you Reg. I know your heart is in the right place and you must be beside yourself with worry and sadness. Awful awful situation for you to find yourself in after all you went through with Redd too!


That bolded bit is quite true , as for the vets stuff I haven't followed enough to know the logistics, I guess Reg trusts his vet is trying to do the best, they wouldn't have entertained the idea of the journey if they thought there was as good an option closer, or perhaps as has been suggested Reginald needs to stand up to his vet, only the flies on the wall can really know. Poor people and dog!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I agree sometimes dogs act differently around others.
Alfie is as good as gold with my grandmother and as calm as you like.

I think I remember though that reg said when he had coops hip xrayed the vets team couldn't get near him.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I would have to disagree with you, Malmum, on your assessment of the vet. I think it shows great committment on his part to go to the referral and follow it through. I also think that the specialist shows great common sense in not jumping in and operating on a difficult dog that is going to be very hard to manage for its aftercare. And he is the specialist after all, he is the one that has seen both xrays and dog. Yes, maybe your specialist would jump straight in and do surgery but who is to say he is the one that is right. Maybe he is knife and wallet happy - I have no idea, but you have no idea about the other specialist.
It is also quite normal for a practice to refer to a particular specialist. Certainly my vet does and would not refer to anyone else unless the owner insisted - which I did with Candy's eye, not because I had doubts about the normal referral ophthamoligist but for convenience. The two local practices refer most things to different specialists, it is just their choice.

It could well be that you are right and your specialist is better - but you dont know this and you do not know if he would operate on Cooper or that if he did it would be the right choice long term.

This is not a dig at you, but it is taking vet bashing a step to far in my eyes and is confusing for Reginald.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi thanks all. 

I too was confused by them saying he didn't react, but then i haven't rotated the hips, of thousands of hip dysplasic dogs, so wouldn't know what to look for, he obviously felt he didn't react when expected.

Our vet was there, he goes for training there, i don't know if he travelled especially or not.

The specialist as far as i am aware is one of the most experienced in the country, i think if he was incompetent he would more likely do the op and pocket 5 grand and let me pick up the pieces?!

Cooper was on Metacam we stopped it due to aggression, he's now on Rimadyl and still shown signs of aggression.

He would bite the vet no doubt, he's reactive to ear drops, any man handling it would take some serious drugs to keep him calm with such a big operation, that does concern me.

DDB welfare won't take him, they can't put an aggressive dog in foster.

Before this thread i had already e mailed Noel Fitzpatricks place, they can't comment without seeing him. 

Our vet referred to this specialist as he regards him as the best, for no other reason. If they were scamming me, i would be 5k lighter and have a grumpy sore dog now. They turned down easy money , instead giving an honest professional opinion.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks to SDH and Shrap, appreciate the thought.

I imagine anybody out there that would be suitable to take him on would already have a dog............that could not be homed with cooper


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I really feel for you. Did the specialist not want to do the op because they believe it will make Cooper's aggression worse?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

redginald said:


> Hi thanks all.
> 
> I too was confused by them saying he didn't react, but then i haven't rotated the hips, of thousands of hip dysplasic dogs, so wouldn't know what to look for, he obviously felt he didn't react when expected.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to say that now you have x-rays of Cooper's hips, you can have them sent to Noel Fitzpatrick and they will give you an opinion over the phone free of charge. That is what they told me about my Joshua's arthritis.

But I can see everybody's point of view here. You have an aggressive, powerful dog with young children to worry about. That dog is also in pain, don't care what the vet says. And the aftercare for such a dog could be even worse for him. Terrible situation, and I do so feel for you.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

He won't operate as he feels he doesn't need it yet. He says some dogs are crippled by minor Dysplasia, Cooper does not compensate with his other leg, he doesn't care about jumping around 24/7 on his back legs. His bad leg is better muscled than his good leg. He's on powerful pain killers. He's still aggressive. In his opinion its not affecting his quality of life, they treat the patient not the x ray. He doesn't believe the Dysplasic hip affects him.

He added in Cooper favour he has a perfect right hip, any compensation would fall on a strong hip, he may never require a hip replacement and advises pain killers


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm so sorry reg.

Seems like the vets and ortho have been quite truthful with you and like you say they could have taken your money even if it wasn't best. 

Only you and the vets know the degree of his aggression and the damage to his hip so it can only fall on you all to make the decision.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Im sorry to hear the bad news Reg  I have read the threads before but not commented. 

I have been in a similar position re the aggression (not the health issues) and know how hard it is to try and come to a decision, I also know just how hard it is to find a rescue placement for a dog who shows aggression, they just dont exist 

Im sure you know what we ended up doing, and as hard as it was at the time, it is a huge relief once that burden has been removed. It sounds horrible but only a week later I am much happier and relaxed, as are the dogs who were also affected. 

Obviously your situation is more complex due to the health side of things, but whatever decision you make you have my full support and the support of many others on here im sure, I know I had a lot of support from the lovely members on here  

Feel free to pm me if you want to chat x


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm sorry Redginald 
I haven't said anything on this because there isn't much to say - you are between a rock and a hard place, and no-one else can decide what's best, so no-one can tell you that you are wrong, whatever you decide.
Heartbreaking when someone has tried so long to reach this point, but keep in mind you _have _tried, more than many would have x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes FR would at least need to see his x rays, don't know if they did. Only you can make the choice I just feel Coop has limited time on this earth somehow and to be free of pain may (of course it may not) have made some difference. I hope by compensating the bad hip the good one doesn't deteriorate leaving him needing two THR's down the line because it very often does, making his aggression worse in the process. The reason I chose not to wait for Flynn to age was because young dogs recover faster, having said that Zara GSD is I believe six and has done well while awaiting her second THR and Mani the Lab who's nine months is also doing well while awaiting his second. 

All dogs are different I suppose and as long your vet isn't waiting in the hope of doing it himself in a couple of years, as he's already suggested, then only time will tell!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Yes FR would at least need to see his x rays, don't know if they did. Only you can make the choice I just feel Coop has limited time on this earth somehow and to be free of pain may (of course it may not) have made some difference. I hope by compensating the bad hip the good one doesn't deteriorate leaving him needing two THR's down the line because it very often does, making his aggression worse in the process. The reason I chose not to wait for Flynn to age was because young dogs recover faster, having said that Zara GSD is I believe six and has done well while awaiting her second THR and Mani the Lab who's nine months is also doing well while awaiting his second.
> 
> All dogs are different I suppose and as long your vet isn't waiting in the hope of doing it himself in a couple of years, as he's already suggested, then only time will tell!


My vet agreed that he needed rehoming , he's not lining him up for an op.
The behaviorist also said she advises rehome or pts now. DDB welfare said to the best thing for your family .


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2012)

poor you and poor cooper
i have absolutely no idea what to suggest reg and i don't envy your position it's crap!
i do think his crap breeder needs to be brought to boot though i was horrified to read this morning that his breeder isn't even endorsing any pups been bred so lord knows how many more dogs are out there with problems such as coopers


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Just wanted to say I am so sorry for you and your family. 
You have worked so hard and tried everything. You have my utmost respect.
As the mother of 2 small children, I can only imagine how you feel about having a dog like Coop around. I agree with DDB rescue and would put the needs of my (human) family first. 
Hugs.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I can imagine how totally consuming all this has been and still is for you, with a young family Coops must take up so much of your time. Re home is great but again you have to find someone who'll take on his two issues, pretty hard to find I bet. 

Some of these more difficult breeds can leave you so drained at times, I know all I've been through with Flynn over the past four years have and I'm not talking about his hip replacements - they've been a walk in the park compared to all the training/behaviourists I've forked out for, only to be back to square one after the other day. I soldier on and hope my new job on Monday with put Flynn in a better perspective, not the be all and end all of everything. With little kids you must be continually drained/exhausted dealing with all this pressure on a daily basis and I bet sometimes you wonder what it would be like just not to have a dog at all - certainly would be less stressful and I know I sometimes do when it all gets too much and I'm in tears again!

Such tough going and by the sound of the breeder you'll not be the only owner agonising like this. Shameful!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I can imagine how totally consuming all this has been and still is for you, with a young family Coops must take up so much of your time. Re home is great but again you have to find someone who'll take on his two issues, pretty hard to find I bet.
> 
> Some of these more difficult breeds can leave you so drained at times, I know all I've been through with Flynn over the past four years have and I'm not talking about his hip replacements - they've been a walk in the park compared to all the training/behaviourists I've forked out for, only to be back to square one after the other day. I soldier on and hope my new job on Monday with put Flynn in a better perspective, not the be all and end all of everything. With little kids you must be continually drained/exhausted dealing with all this pressure on a daily basis and I bet sometimes you wonder what it would be like just not to have a dog at all - certainly would be less stressful and I know I sometimes do when it all gets too much and I'm in tears again!
> 
> Such tough going and by the sound of the breeder you'll not be the only owner agonising like this. Shameful!


And just answers that question on another thread, doesn't it? What does it matter if someone wants to pay less for a pup with no tests, what difference does it make to a dog that is only being sold as a pet?

They should all be made to read about Cooper and about Flynn; then perhaps they would realise how buying cheap means buying heartache.

I am not in any way saying that you and Reg bought cheap, with no tests. I don't know whether you did or not, I am just answering that endless, stupid question.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2012)

I Just wanted to say I'm sorry you are in this situation.

Sending you support.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I'm struggling to follow the vet's logic, like a few others here. Dex has mild hip dysplasia and our vet also stated that when he extended the leg, there wasn't 'much' discomfort BUT I see Dex every day and I know there are times he's not comfortable e.g. when he limps.

I would definitely get a second opinion - you've come this far and you have tried SO hard, it would be awful to just take one vet's word for it in case he's wrong.

It sounds like you are making some progress with Cooper and I know how stressful it can be with a reactive/nervous/unpredictable dog - believe me I know....! You are to be commended for all the love and dedication you have shown Cooper 

Again, I would urge a second opinion, just so you can be *SURE.*


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just caught up with the whole thread. This is a ghastly situation for you and I really, really feel for you and your family.

My only thought is, have any medications been tried that can work with nervous dogs - I think I've read about one called...is it Zyklene.....? Someone correct me if I'm talking rubbish!!!


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

My offer still stands. If you want to discuss it PM me. Good luck whatever you choose, no-one will flame you x


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## Shazach (Dec 18, 2008)

Like other's I lurked and not posted on most of your threads but wanted to send my sympathy, I remember your first posts after you'd lost your lab. I'm so sorry that you're having this experience now.

Everyone can have an opinion but living these things must be so very hard and you can only do what you feel is best judging the whole picture.

So sorry.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

ozrex said:


> In an ideal world perhaps it would be right to do the hip surgery. I don't know.
> 
> I think there's a good chance that the rehabilitation would be a nightmare for Cooper. Again I don't know. Malmum's description of Flynn's surgery and rehabilitation is *inspiring *but it was under very different circumstances. Flynn is a sweetheart and Malmum was able to devote every waking hour to Flynn and sleep near him. He had and more importantly he NEEDED the total love, care and time of his favourite person. How do people struggling with work, bills and young children do this? What effect would prolonged confinement, pain and close proximity to people do to Cooper who is a very different personality?
> 
> ...


Yes, agree.

What I think we can all agree on is that when Reg says they are exploring and think it through, we know that's the case.

So sorry Reg


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> And just answers that question on another thread, doesn't it? What does it matter if someone wants to pay less for a pup with no tests, what difference does it make to a dog that is only being sold as a pet?
> 
> They should all be made to read about Cooper and about Flynn; then perhaps they would realise how buying cheap means buying heartache.
> 
> I am not in any way saying that you and Reg bought cheap, with no tests. I don't know whether you did or not, I am just answering that endless, stupid question.


Don't know about Coops parents, could well be they are tested since Reg knew the score at the time. Flynns on the other hand were £1,000 each, a complete stitch up especially in Kali's case without tests.
Testing is still no guarantee with over 1,000 genes coding for HD. Flynn has seven siblings unaffected, while the very well bred Lab pup and Bernese on the diary have good results throughout their ancestry - I have never asked about the other as this information was something the two owners were so upset about. 
Sometimes even with good tests behind them they'll have HD, sometimes without they won't. 
Noel said the majority of his patients are Labs or at least pure breeds, while the few we're crosses - no testing there. Very random it seems.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Don't know about Coops parents, could well be they are tested since Reg knew the score at the time. Flynns on the other hand were £1,000 each, a complete stitch up especially in Kali's case without tests.
> Testing is still no guarantee with over 1,000 genes coding for HD. Flynn has seven siblings unaffected, while the very well bred Lab pup and Bernese on the diary have good results throughout their ancestry - I have never asked about the other as this information was something the two owners were so upset about.
> Sometimes even with good tests behind them they'll have HD, sometimes without they won't.
> Noel said the majority of his patients are Labs or at least pure breeds, while the few we're crosses - no testing there. Very random it seems.


hello! I just wanted to add that 1000 ain't cheap at all and yes, i believe stitched up- but then again now you're 'clued up' and i doubt would pay again for a dog with no tests.. in my experience of genetics and hip dysplasia it appears that it can skip generations so a full health tested pedigree is important not just the progenies immediate parentage.

Is Kali Flynn's mum? Just curious.

I think though it is important to also add (and i'm defo! not suggesting any poster on here has exacerbated a condition that is proven as hereditary (albeit the genes controlling it are complex) but other dogs may exhibit CHD from combinations of nutrition and exercise regimes with maybe no hint of the condition in the ancestry being flagged- maybe why some dogs are seen to display it 'randomly'


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Hi Redginald. I feel awful as it was me who asked for the update and then I didn't post anything because I didn't know what to say. I don't have enough experience to advise you, just sending hugs and best wishes to you and yours. xxx


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

i'm so sorry you didn't recieve better news from the specialist and vet. only you can decide whether it's worth getting a second opinion from NF, or you are happy to go with what has already been said to you. whatever decison you come to over cooper, you've got a lot of support on here. having thread your previous threads we know how hard you have tried with cooper so no one would think badly off you about whatever you decide to do. (((hugs)))


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

Given NF has been the 1st to do some ops, has, I believe, actually designed some surgical equipment, and even here in Oz, I'd heard of NF, long before reading Malmum's thread, I really can't comprehend HOW this chap you went to, can be labelled THE best. That claim would make me extremely dubious, on it's own. Clearly, the vets were afraid of Coops and I bet they want nothing to do with him, whatever the payout. 

I understand that it all feels too much. I understand that you have children, AGAiN, I point out that your expert vet NEVER did these tests, whilst many of us were BEGGING you to get his hips checked, because WE suspected there would be a problem, from experience. If he was so good, why hadn't he checked all this long before we were baying for the tests, just from your repeated descriptions of what was happening. Red flags going up everywhere and you want to go with the blanket PTS. Might I remind you it wouldn't have been so exhausting and breaking point, if he'd been checked as a puppy, very early on. NOT your fault, but a long term oversight by your vet.

Coops has only the hope of life IF you get the op done. I'm not suggesting you nurse him. I would like him to be nursed by an experienced person, and it would certainly be a lot easier, if they had no children. You have to get the work done as owner, as if he leaves your ownership, he will not get the insurance coverage. Have you even watched the vet tv series on NF and his work? Was your Specialist so inspiring, so breaking of all previous limitations, that a tv series was done on his extraordinary work? Yet YOUR guy is the best... ?? 

I know Coops is not suitable for you. I do believe that with another strong dog home, he would be unrecognisable, but unless you give him that chance, he IS doomed. His life is in your hands. Malmum said, didn't she, that NF can organise some nursing. I know you have had enough, but Coops should have his chance. If need be, even I, completely skint, will donate towards his excess payment, but he is not the dog for you, but he needs you to give him that chance at happiness.

WHY do you not go to see NF, possibly the most famous vet in Britain, apart from James Herriot, tho not his real name. Why do you not give him a chance to evaluate Coops? To have him recover is not a life sentence as your pet dog. See him well, and hand him over to a good, strong home, and enjoy your easygoing labrador, and stay with them. Even show NF the xrays. It is as tho you don't want to hear it can be done. You just want the let out clause.

I've had SO MANY dogs handed to me as cat chasers, warned they will kill cats, and had them standing in the kitchen, ignoring a cat rubbing against their chest, begging handouts, within a week. OR, lowering head, to take a deep sniff of cat bum, with an ecstatic expression on their faces. 

I DO have dogs that I don't gel with. 

I was great with mad arabs, rearers and buckers, but a hard mouthed bolter had me in melt downs. My vet HATES having to deal with arabs. I know my weaknesses. Explain to NF your great worries. He lets people pay off for ages, reinvests most of his fees on research. This is definitely a man who does not hanker for money. Explain that Coop needs to be sound, to be rehomed. My only worry is that NF will feel Coops has no future back up, with you, and feel the dog is written off and doomed, even IF sound.

I am not condemning you. You battled on with a dog you didn't understand, suffering as you didn't understand. At least give him a chance with an experienced home. No one at this point, can be SURE if he will blossom. He's had a hard time for a long time, but he needs that chance in a home that understands forceful dogs, and you must give him the op he needs, because no one will volunteer to pay that out, for a strange dog. You got that money up, and now you want to write him off, pre op. I do think he deserves his chance, and would be horrified of he was PTS without it.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I just wanted to say that just because people are on the tv does not mean others are not competent. There are some on this forum who have had success with coopers surgeon too. There are others who can do the job too and going by the diary noel doesnt handle many of the cases now anyway.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If I've misread the post I apologise, but I'm not sure why everyone is pushing for the operation to be done still, as in the opinion of the vet although he has HD, it's not contributing towards the aggressive behaviour, but it might make it worse trying to contain a large unpredictable dog if they do go ahead with the operation. The only option if the operation were done, is to find a new home for Cooper, and I don't think personally it's fair to pass on a dog with problems, unless it is to someone experienced and who has the time and effort to put into this dog with the full knowledge of what they are taking on. Pushing the OP into having any surgical procedure against the advice of his vet and specialist is not going to do any good, and is unfair, possibly making them feel they somehow haven't made the best choice or have provided inadequate care in comparison to what others could provide. The OP is not an inexperienced dog owner, perhaps not as dog savvy as some on here, but this wasn't their first dog. Although Cooper was not from a good breeder, and they were told that, they still put a lot of effort into his upbringing, more than a lot of owners bother with, and yet still problems have emerged, both health and temperament, and according to the vet, they are NOT linked, he is not in discomfort from the HD but has an unreliable temperament. So I'm sorry, as I'll probably offend some people but not every dog can be rescued from every situation.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If I've misread the post I apologise, but I'm not sure why everyone is pushing for the operation to be done still, as in the opinion of the vet although he has HD, it's not contributing towards the aggressive behaviour, but it might make it worse trying to contain a large unpredictable dog if they do go ahead with the operation. The only option if the operation were done, is to find a new home for Cooper, and I don't think personally it's fair to pass on a dog with problems, unless it is to someone experienced and who has the time and effort to put into this dog with the full knowledge of what they are taking on. Pushing the OP into having any surgical procedure against the advice of his vet and specialist is not going to do any good, and is unfair, possibly making them feel they somehow haven't made the best choice or have provided inadequate care in comparison to what others could provide. The OP is not an inexperienced dog owner, perhaps not as dog savvy as some on here, but this wasn't their first dog. Although Cooper was not from a good breeder, and they were told that, they still put a lot of effort into his upbringing, more than a lot of owners bother with, and yet still problems have emerged, both health and temperament, and according to the vet, they are NOT linked, he is not in discomfort from the HD but has an unreliable temperament. So I'm sorry, as I'll probably offend some people but not every dog can be rescued from every situation.


I agree, even though my first reaction was get a second opinion. It is all too easy to think there must be something else when you haven't even met the dog and I feel that Reginald has really come to the end of his tether now, especially having kids to worry about.

I think maybe we should all back off and support him and his family in what they decide is best for them and for Cooper.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If I've misread the post I apologise, but I'm not sure why everyone is pushing for the operation to be done still, as in the opinion of the vet although he has HD, it's not contributing towards the aggressive behaviour, but it might make it worse trying to contain a large unpredictable dog if they do go ahead with the operation. The only option if the operation were done, is to find a new home for Cooper, and I don't think personally it's fair to pass on a dog with problems, unless it is to someone experienced and who has the time and effort to put into this dog with the full knowledge of what they are taking on. Pushing the OP into having any surgical procedure against the advice of his vet and specialist is not going to do any good, and is unfair, possibly making them feel they somehow haven't made the best choice or have provided inadequate care in comparison to what others could provide. The OP is not an inexperienced dog owner, perhaps not as dog savvy as some on here, but this wasn't their first dog. Although Cooper was not from a good breeder, and they were told that, they still put a lot of effort into his upbringing, more than a lot of owners bother with, and yet still problems have emerged, both health and temperament, and according to the vet, they are NOT linked, he is not in discomfort from the HD but has an unreliable temperament. So I'm sorry, as I'll probably offend some people but not every dog can be rescued from every situation.


I completely agree with you. I find it scary that people can be so dismissal of the veterinary advice given, I am sure Reginald has considered all options, researched himself but ultimately he knows Cooper best, he knows what he can cope with.

I also believe that not every dog can be saved, sad but a fact. Even if Cooper were to be rehomed where are these fantastic homes with experienced people? We are aware of the terrible situations of rescues overflowing with young, healthy dogs who have no behavioural problems so who would want to take on a large dog with medical problems as well as behavioural ones?

Reginald may be lucky & find someone (if he chooses to go down that route) but unfortuanately the odds are not in his favour. Who is to say that he would remain there for life either, maybe they would find him too much & again he would be needing another home - unfortunately this is often the case for dogs such as this.

I think it is an incredibly difficult decison that will have to be made & as we have all followed Reg's problems we should support him at this difficult time not sit in judgement that 'we' know best having never met Coops, never discussed this with the vets involved or seen him in his home environment.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I think everyone is making valid points. I also *think* that what HOUSEHENS is saying is that as Reginald has come THIS far, why not send the x rays to NF and just see what he says...?

NF may agree with the specialist that has just seen Cooper.

Or NF may disagree and then provide some advice or guidance as to what the next step could be, HOUSEHENS mentions he sometimes provides nursing at his centre so maybe that is one option....?

It is a heartbreaking situation for Reginald and his family and I agree we must support him, which I'm sure we all do. Whatever he decides, I know he will get a great deal of kindness and empathy here on PF 

REGINALD - we are all thinking of you!


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Homes where people want a dog who shows aggression just do not exist, when people get a dog they want a dog who will be a companion, a friend, a family member. Not a constant source of stress and worry - which is what an aggressive dogs brings into a home. 

You could get it done and try to see if one of the rehab places will take them, like snowdonia animal sanctury in wales. But my advice would be to see if they will take him before dragging Coop around more vets, because if they are full (which they were a couple of months back) then you are putting yourself and Coop under unnecessary stress

Best of luck whatever you decide xx


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

NF was not just "on tv", like a vacuous waste of space, or the token totty of the qualifying last year of vet college, as they become real vets, fall in love and settle down and have hilarious adventures with a hand up a cows backside.. 

The whole series was highlighting the groundbreaking extraordinary work HE DID FIRST ON THE PLANET. He had to DESIGN the equipment FOR the ops, as they previously didn't exist, he has done ops that have broken our beliefs of what is beyond help. He lectures all over the world. I find it extraordinary that he should be labelled knife happy by someone, and the fact is, even if he could help, if he feels the owner is not 100% committed, he will turn them down. THAT would be my great fear in this case. The number of comments that point to complete ignorance of this man's amazing surgery breakthroughs, and the "what's it matter what specialist does it..." 

Plus, if Coops IS so bad, NF would probably love the challenge. As I said, Malmum said NF may be able to organise some nursing, and once he was out of danger, he could be rehomed. Dog well, and in new, experienced hands. Got a reason to explain a lot of behaviour, grabbed insurance back from a company really being unpleasant, and then... pull the plug!!!!! 

If I had a vet that had had those symptoms of behaviour repeated, and not done those testa, I'd be utterly furious, AND while we are saying that SO MANY on here are diagnosing from a distance, never meeting the dog, NOT QUALIFIED, WE were the one's saying he needs his joints/hips checked. We had to NAG and NAG to get it done. The qualified vet SAW Coops regularly and NEVER once thought of it, had to have it asked of him.

It truly seems the decision is made. If I say what I think I'm banned. I'm not reading any more on Coops, and I will mourn him now.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

househens said:


> NF was not just "on tv", like a vacuous waste of space, or the token totty of the qualifying last year of vet college, as they become real vets, fall in love and settle down and have hilarious adventures with a hand up a cows backside..
> 
> The whole series was highlighting the groundbreaking extraordinary work HE DID FIRST ON THE PLANET. He had to DESIGN the equipment FOR the ops, as they previously didn't exist, he has done ops that have broken our beliefs of what is beyond help. He lectures all over the world. I find it extraordinary that he should be labelled knife happy by someone, and the fact is, even if he could help, if he feels the owner is not 100% committed, he will turn them down. THAT would be my great fear in this case. The number of comments that point to complete ignorance of this man's amazing surgery breakthroughs, and the "what's it matter what specialist does it..."
> 
> ...


the problem is finding the home, I doubt NF has the time to arrange a new home as well as do multiple ops and arrange long term aftercare. If reg chooses to go down this path he needs to have the home lined up before the op. As said this is damn near impossible, I know from my own experience and this was a dog who at the time wasnt showing human aggression. Its irresponsible to rehome a dog like this privately and all of the rescues are either full or will not take an aggressive dog. That leaves the ones who specialize in aggressive dogs, which again are all full.

And also how much does Reg's insurance cover? it may cover the op but long term aftercare around the clock is going to be very expensive and could well cost a lot more than most policy limits.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I know why he was on tv, I saw it myself.

I am only saying there are other good surgeons around and coopers is one too. 

Plus I have read on the diary about NF and the hip replacement and the people cannot see or get in touch with Noel at all, leaving them wanting to go somewhere else after having him for surgery.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Keeping a dog alive at any cost is not always in the dog's best interest, only the dog lover's!

HD does not automatically lead to pain - and Reginald's vet has already said it is unlikely to be the cause of the aggression (something I suspected from day 1). It's all very well clasping at straws, but it's important to see the overall picture.
A dog with behavioural problems that cannot be kept and will need rehoming. But will first require very invasive and painful surgery, will need rehabilitation through from not just the surgery but from temperament problems and all without any future home in sight.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Keeping a dog alive at any cost is not always in the dog's best interest, only the dog lover's!
> 
> HD does not automatically lead to pain - and Reginald's vet has already said it is unlikely to be the cause of the aggression (something I suspected from day 1). It's all very well clasping at straws, but it's important to see the overall picture.
> A dog with behavioural problems that cannot be kept and will need rehoming. But will first require very invasive and painful surgery, will need rehabilitation through from not just the surgery but from temperament problems and all without any future home in sight.


Exactly!!

And the only reason I'm typing this sentence is because my post is too short, what's wrong with being short?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Keeping a dog alive at any cost is not always in the dog's best interest, only the dog lover's!
> 
> HD does not automatically lead to pain - and Reginald's vet has already said it is unlikely to be the cause of the aggression (something I suspected from day 1). It's all very well clasping at straws, but it's important to see the overall picture.
> A dog with behavioural problems that cannot be kept and will need rehoming. But will first require very invasive and painful surgery, will need rehabilitation through from not just the surgery but from temperament problems and all without any future home in sight.


Plus maybe having to go through it all over again as more often then not they have to have the other hip replaced too.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

i personally think , putting cooper through the op based on what the vets had to say has put reg between a rock and a hard place. do i think he should have the operation or a second opinion - well , no i don't.
the vet cooper is registered with knows him , knows about his behavioural problems , the aggression etc etc taking him elsewhere would be incredibly unfair to someone that don't know his background , expecting reg to get him through that operation is , unrealistic where there are small children in the home , it's a BIG thing to be asking reg when only he knows the situation and knows how cooper is.
i've seen the damage bordeaux can do , i've discussed this with reg before via PM concerning two people that know the breed well and are very experienced with the bordeaux breed that suffered massively concerning a dog they were trying to help both ended up terribly hurt , i was hoping reg would contact them for some support and advice , or at least an opinion.
put yourself in that kind of situation for just a second and imagine the devastation of something like that happening to reg , his wife or god forbid one or both of reg's children ???? don't bare thinking about and from what i understand reg's children really aren't of the age where they could ever begin to grasp or completely understand what cooper would have to go through , never mind his rehabilitation in the great scheme of things they are only youngsters it's a lot to ask someone with a young family.
rehoming cooper shouldn't even be an option , or even thought about , the book has to end somewhere so if he has to be pts , why shouldn't it happen around the family that has tried massively to help him , let him go around people he knows and the family he is familiar with.
i can't make reg's decision for him , i just wish him well with what ever he decides and my PM box is open should he need someone to chat to for some support. xx


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

I have seen it happen where a dog has terrible hips on x-ray but is completely asymptomatic. One of our muttdogs (GSDX) was under for some odd reason I cant even remember anymore. I had the vet (partner is an ortho specialist) x-ray him just out of curiosity and he was deemed to have the worst hips the ortho vet had ever seen. Said dog is now 14, blind, deaf and senile, and is JUST now starting to wobble a bit in back (which honestly I think is spondylosis more than hips). 
Some dogs just dont get pain symptoms with dysplasia. Looking at the muscling on the dysplastic leg is a good indication IMO.

Reginald, I have thought for a while now, (and I believe said it on one of your threads) that Cooper would likely be better off in a different home. Not all dogs and their homes are good matches - it happens. Its not about fault really, just something that happens. The dog who is miserably in a busy, active, young family, may end up making a great dog for a quiet retired couple. The bouncy, energetic dog who is miserable with the quiet retired couple may be perfect for an active single person who hikes and camps every weekend.

Sometimes a dog like Cooper just needs a different handler. From following your story, I think most of his behavioral issues stem from frustration and confusion. You two just dont read each other well. 
Molossers, once theyve figured out they can intimidate you and use their brawn to their advantage, youre done. Cooper has had one too many times of getting to practice using his brawn and now its his default behavior with you. Put him with a new handler, someone he has no history with, and you have a MUCH easier time un-doing this default behavior.



sid&kira said:


> Homes where people want a dog who shows aggression just do not exist, when people get a dog they want a dog who will be a companion, a friend, a family member. Not a constant source of stress and worry - which is what an aggressive dogs brings into a home.


I understand what youre saying, and its a valid point.
But lets be clear, ALL dogs are capable of showing aggression for one. Put the mellowest dog in the right (wrong?) circumstances and that dog can become aggressive too. Aggression is part of all dogs. Thresholds and triggers are what varies.

Secondly, folks who end up with who exhibit aggression can also end up with a companion, friend, family member. Dogs can absolutely be managed and rehabilitated and there are many people out there quite capable of doing so. Two of the dogs in this house came with iffy histories - one with a bite history who I didnt think we were going to keep. Theyre both now much beloved family members who do not cause us any added worry or stress.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sorry not posting much, i need to think straight.

Before the criticism i had already contacted my vet and said im struggling to rehome, i said i trust him fully but as this now be a pts situation i would like his scans, he said he understands and will fwd them he'll also refer me if required, this is now an option, but not necasarilly the solution.

Our vets been fantastic, Cooper was checked as a pup, but wasn't taken to the vet until the behaviorist noticed, he's now been through processes to get it treated. He couldn't have done more, and the criticism is massively unfair. 

Cooper almost bit me the other day for putting my hand near his ear after ear drops. Cooper tried to bite the vet when examining him 3 times, if he wasn't muzzled it may have been nasty. He was knocked out in the vets for an x ray, on waking and released from his kennel he had a showdown with half the staff and was stood the opposite side of the kennels like a lion with everybody else the other end. How does anybody expect him to be manageable after being chopped open, and requiring lifting whilst in pain and discomfort.

Iv'e contacted the breeder, no reply. iv'e contacted DDB welfare, DDB rehoming, Breeders, i spoke to a mollosser rescue (won't say which one) on the phone, she said she wanted to talk on the phone as it may upset me but basically have him pts before he hurts somebody, sometimes dogs like this crop up, and he's to dangerous to rehome. 

I don't want him getting into the wrong hands, going to a home that may pts anyway, by somebody he doesn't know.

I don't want him ending up as a bate dog, or in the bottom of a river like the DDB found in brum.

When i got Cooper i was insistent on the parents hip scores, his parents scores are 6 and 9, you'll struggle to find better in a DDB. The dysplasia is in his left hip only, it may have been from injury as a young pup. 

Sorry but had to answer a few questions.

Our breeder hasn't been of much help at all, iv'e asked many times for help and only recently got a message from her saying she's sorry to hear, hip scores of parents are good, let her know what happens.

When Cooper 1st showed aggression on biting a head collar i called in a behaviorist straight away, iv'e tried to nail everything asap i really have but i have failed him somewhere.

Cooper has shown numerous times he will bite, we try to address the triggers, but the behavior just moves, he resorts to in appropriate behavior alot.

Today he slipped his way up the stairs, my gf asked him to come down he growled, she went to get his house line and he air snapped. 

We shouldn't have let him get on the stairs true, he shouldn't have snapped though, a dog that resorts to this with his capability just isn't safe.

We got in a pricier well reccomended behaviorist, she has been great help, and always happy to answer questions, even she is unhappy with him. 

Im not the greatest dog owner in the world, i do walk him every day, feed him, tried my hardest to train him, sought advice when needed. Iv'e NEVER hit him, kicked him, Mistreated him. For my lack of knowledge, and failures in some of his training i would accept a disobidient dog, a dog aggressive dog, NOT a dog that is aggressive to the people who feed him and look after him every day.

This is the most stressful thing iv'e ever dealt with, it may not sound like it but i love this dog, he's my pup. Im struggling to decide what is the right thing to do, and still contacting rescues in the hope there is the right person out there to take him on. If anyone knows of any decent rescues that may be able to help i would love to know.

Thanks to everybody for your messages


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

redginald said:


> Sorry not posting much, i need to think straight.
> 
> Before the criticism i had already contacted my vet and said im struggling to rehome, i said i trust him fully but as this now be a pts situation i would like his scans, he said he understands and will fwd them he'll also refer me if required, this is now an option, but not necasarilly the solution.
> 
> ...


reg i think you are being massively unfair on yourself , you haven't failed cooper at all , you've never let him down ever so don't you dare even think that!!!!!
sometimes it just happens you could be the best bloody dog owner in the world and STILL have this happen!!!!
take care of yourself and big hugs to you and your family (((hugs)))) xx


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> Sorry not posting much, i need to think straight.
> 
> Before the criticism i had already contacted my vet and said im struggling to rehome, i said i trust him fully but as this now be a pts situation i would like his scans, he said he understands and will fwd them he'll also refer me if required, this is now an option, but not necasarilly the solution.
> 
> ...


I'm filling up reading this.. I can totally feel your emotion in your words and can tell you're at your wits end. You've got some serious thinking to do, and don't envy your situation at all. It's all been said before, but I just wanted to wish you well in whatever decision you make for Cooper.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

What's he like with other dogs?

Dogs Trust: Six months in the life of Dogs Trust Sanctuary


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

just wanted to say if you've contacted jackie from molosser breeds rescue and that is what she has said , then i'd go along with what she's had to say reg , she's very experienced with large molossoid breeds and if she won't risk cooper i don't know anyone else that would i'm sorry to say reg


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I'm filling up reading this.. I can totally feel your emotion in your words and can tell you're at your wits end. You've got some serious thinking to do, and don't envy your situation at all. It's all been said before, but I just wanted to wish you well in whatever decision you make for Cooper.


My thoughts exactly. 

I've just read this thread and I really feel for you.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello!

thanks for sharing that reginald i understand- i know you're having a nightmare both morally and just generally when you think about trying to rehome him.

Whilst we can all give you support on here and in the end offer you an outlet to discuss and consider your feelings and the situation- in the end no one here ( i think?!) knows for sure what has happened, how much hips/breeding and training/interaction has led to this situation... ultimately only you and your friends/trainers etc. know about your home environment and what the dog is like with you.

I like that you've backed your vet, I completely agree that doing such a procedure would perhaps be counter-intuitive. And i sincerely think his recommendations were made under ethical consideration. It is good of you to come on and back him up on this- when as a 'desperate' owner you could easily want to seek to place blame.

I guess ( and i only mean to be helpful here, certainly not at all harsh i hope!) it boils down to really considering and asking those you have worked with and really asking yourself if the dog is the problem (hips/breeding/personality etc etc) or if you guys don't just gel. 

Again you've clearly pointed out even if the latter is the case then practical difficulties in finding another home just ain't working out.

Regardless, thank you for sharing and being brave enough to come on here and say what's going on.

All the best to you and your family and good luck seeking alternatives to its if you decide that route. Sounds like a total nightmare.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

rona said:


> What's he like with other dogs?
> 
> Dogs Trust: Six months in the life of Dogs Trust Sanctuary


He's unfortunately terrible with other dogs


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

diablo said:


> just wanted to say if you've contacted jackie from molosser breeds rescue and that is what she has said , then i'd go along with what she's had to say reg , she's very experienced with large molossoid breeds and if she won't risk cooper i don't know anyone else that would i'm sorry to say reg


No i don't believe it was but ill give her a call


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Hello!
> 
> thanks for sharing that reginald i understand- i know you're having a nightmare both morally and just generally when you think about trying to rehome him.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Im still trying rescues but not having much luck

This is the summary from our behaviorist 
" This may not be without it's own challenges due to his health problems, but I would suggest trying the breed rescues. If they are not prepared to take him on then I think we will have to sadly consider euthanizing him. Believe me, I never suggest doing that lightly.

Jon - you have absolutely tried your heart out with Cooper, and I genuinely feel that there is little more that you could have done to try to help him. Unfortunately, the risk that some dogs represent is just too high to make them safe family pets, be they tiny fluffy dogs, or big powerful dogs like him. Whilst either decision you make will I am sure be gut wrenching, you should feel confident that you are making the right decision, for him and your family.

If I can be of any help with finding him a home, then please do let me know, and"


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

redginald said:


> No i don't believe it was but ill give her a call


in that case i'd give jackie a call then , she is a very nice lady and i swear on my kids lives reg she would not put you wrongxx
CANE CORSO UK & MOLOSSER RESCUE


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I think everyone needs to stop giving the OP more hoops to jump through , this is not a new problem and he has already jumped through hundreds of hoops for cooper  It must be making things harder for him. 

We just need to support the decision that has got to be made IMHO .


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It's so easy to comment and give advice, I've done it loads and have rooted for Coop to be given the chance of the op, perhaps in the misguided belief that his temperament will improve if he lacks pain. I realise this is something a few on here believe too and maybe we're just clutching at straws, clutching because even though he isn't our dog we feel sad at the prospect of him facing an uncertain future, most likely a short future. 

It's only when I sit back and imagine it were Flynn in this position, acting aggressive to me and mine that I can begin to understand the enormity of what you are going through. The devastating choices before you are something I hope I will never ever have to face. I don't know the breed, have never had a dog aggressive to me or mine and the only similarity being a dog having THR surgery. The differences in the temperaments of the two dogs are worlds apart and I realise how very lucky I am for that and how judgemental I may sound in comparing Coop with Flynn when really there is no comparison. 

He is your pup and I know how hard you've worked trying to change his behaviour and I am so sorry he hasn't responded in a good way, I just wish it could have been different for both of you - as I know all of us do.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Reginald - just wanted to say that although I don't know you or your family, I am really thinking of you guys and of course Cooper. I know a little bit about living with a dog that can be unpredictable and reactive - it's really stressful.

I don't think anyone could have tried harder than you to help Cooper and I'm sure he knows how much you love him.

Sending you all best wishes


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

The timing couldn't be worse, I've spoken to somebody on Facebook alot about Cooper (The expert on Ddbs quoted in the national papers in relation to the recent story of the dogs killing the lady feeding them)

The rescues struggle to take on aggressive dogs. He helped found the big Ddb rescue and regularly rehabilitates ddbs, he's also unable to help.

I've never named our breeder on here incase there is a genuine reason for her lack of help

One breeder i will name is Redmollosser Dogues, who have always been very helpful, even asking me how things are going with cooper, seems a very genuine responsible breeder, something novel to me


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

redginald said:


> The timing couldn't be worse, I've spoken to somebody on Facebook alot about Cooper (The expert on Ddbs quoted in the national papers in relation to the recent story of the dogs killing the lady feeding them)
> 
> The rescues struggle to take on aggressive dogs. He helped found the big Ddb rescue and regularly rehabilitates ddbs, he's also unable to help.
> 
> ...


reg i'm really , really sorry things are looking bleak i'd give you more links if i honestly thought people could help , the only other people that spring to mind that could genuinely offer help if they could are iron mountain dog rescue that take on large and sometimes reactive dogs like cooper in all fairness though i know almost nothing about them so i couldn't say hand on heart whether it would be a good place for cooper to go if they could offer him space BUT they are worth a try if you feel that is the route you need to go down with cooper i have only ever heard about the work they do word of mouth and it's all been good! apart from that i know nothing else of them.
as for naming coopers breeder , i don't feel that's needed really even though i personally feel her aftercare and and non existent follow up support and advice (if you needed it) was bloody crap! she's failed you and cooper massively , no one else.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

diablo said:


> in that case i'd give jackie a call then , she is a very nice lady and i swear on my kids lives reg she would not put you wrongxx
> CANE CORSO UK & MOLOSSER RESCUE


My bad it was her i spoke to 

She was nice, e mailed me to call her as she felt she didn't want to say it in an e mail


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

diablo said:


> reg i'm really , really sorry things are looking bleak i'd give you more links if i honestly thought people could help , the only other people that spring to mind that could genuinely offer help if they could are iron mountain dog rescue that take on large and sometimes reactive dogs like cooper in all fairness though i know almost nothing about them so i couldn't say hand on heart whether it would be a good place for cooper to go if they could offer him space BUT they are worth a try if you feel that is the route you need to go down with cooper i have only ever heard about the work they do word of mouth and it's all been good! apart from that i know nothing else of them.
> as for naming coopers breeder , i don't feel that's needed really even though i personally feel her aftercare and and non existent follow up support and advice (if you needed it) was bloody crap! she's failed you and cooper massively , no one else.


I've read about Iron Mountain, they seem to do really good work, might be worth a try 

Totally agree about the original breeder - she's the only one who has failed and the only reason for ever naming her, I guess, would be to try and prevent anyone else from taking one of her pups in case they too had difficulties....?

Fingers crossed Iron Mountain can offer some help


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I've read about Iron Mountain, they seem to do really good work, might be worth a try
> 
> Totally agree about the original breeder - she's the only one who has failed and the only reason for ever naming her, I guess, would be to try and prevent anyone else from taking one of her pups in case they too had difficulties....?
> 
> Fingers crossed Iron Mountain can offer some help


Coopers brother has massive internal organ problems, they have spent thousands on him and she won't even pick up the phone to them. We put that pup down as it had a hernia, when Lindsay discovered the hernia and quizzed the breeder she denied all knowledge.

I messaged her on fb today to tell her the pup she sold us has hip dysplasia and aggression issues and may need pts. She has since "liked" some random showy page but I've still had no reply


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

redginald said:


> My bad it was her i spoke to
> 
> She was nice, e mailed me to call her as she felt she didn't want to say it in an e mail


jackie is lovely reg and i did have a feeling it could have been her you had spoken to because the one thing she is , is straight and tells things how they are , no matter how much you don't want to hear it , she's a lovely genuine person that knows her stuff and if that is what she said reg then i'd sadly have to agree with her she's been around breeds like cooper for a long , long time i remember when she was breeding her dogs under the Burgau affix , what she does have reg is knowledge and experience with these breeds and has for a long long time and i'm ever so glad you managed to speak to her even though it wasn't the news you wanted to hear


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I know that Chis are the other end of the dog size scale but it is shameful that the breeder hasnt supported you Redg. If Coops had been one of mine.....I would have requested his return long ago....even if just for assessment...training...whatever...but to just not communicate...awful. Of course..the breeder could be ill or something but even a bit of moral support or good advice would be something...you must feel very let down.

I hope you are able to find some peace and make the best decision for you all....whatever that may be.....


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Im so sorry reg.

I feel sick for you. I dont know what to say. Im thinking of you.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> Coopers brother has massive internal organ problems, they have spent thousands on him and she won't even pick up the phone to them. We put that pup down as it had a hernia, when Lindsay discovered the hernia and quizzed the breeder she denied all knowledge.
> 
> I messaged her on fb today to tell her the pup she sold us has hip dysplasia and aggression issues and may need pts. She has since "liked" some random showy page but I've still had no reply


I'm tempted to suggest we name and shame this breeder - but if you prefer not to I understand and I respect your decency


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I'm tempted to suggest we name and shame this breeder - but if you prefer not to I understand and I respect your decency


then the thread will be moved , or closed. 
which isn't helpful nothing would give me the greatest of pleasures in all honesty but sadly it serves no purpose to reg


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I'm tempted to suggest we name and shame this breeder - but if you prefer not to I understand and I respect your decency


I'm not sure your allowed to as it could get the forum into trouble. That's not stopping you pm-ing to find out .


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## AmberNero (Jun 6, 2010)

Jeez, Reg  I just wanted to say I'm so sorry xxxx


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

diablo said:


> then the thread will be moved , or closed.
> which isn't helpful nothing would give me the greatest of pleasures in all honesty but sadly it serves no purpose to reg


My guess too is that the breeder would go down the "libel" route and Redg definitely 
doesnt need more aggravation in his life right now.

I do think that at some time in the future Redg needs to write to the breeder....with in depth info on Cooper.....hopefully she/he would consider their breeding stock and ethics and maybe re-think their breeding programme or cease breeding altogether....if they cant even offer support in such a serious situation as Cooper is in.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I message and tell her his problems, its my duty to let her know what she's breeding, shame she doesn't respect hers. I wouldnt give him back, he'll end up in the free ads 

I've contacted iron mountain and big dog rescue. I've said i would look into having the op done and rehoming if beneficial, ill also pay for his food and costs etc. Ill have to wait and see


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> I message and tell her his problems, its my duty to let her know what she's breeding, shame she doesn't respect hers. I wouldnt give him back, he'll end up in the free ads
> 
> *I've contacted iron mountain and big dog rescue. I've said i would look into having the op done and rehoming if beneficial, ill also pay for his food and costs etc. Ill have to wait and see*


Fingers very tightly crossed for you here


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

redginald said:


> I message and tell her his problems, its my duty to let her know what she's breeding, shame she doesn't respect hers. I wouldnt give him back, he'll end up in the free ads
> 
> I've contacted iron mountain and big dog rescue. I've said i would look into having the op done and rehoming if beneficial, ill also pay for his food and costs etc. Ill have to wait and see


No....I wouldnt let Cooper go back to her at this point either but when the issues first started...if she had been there for you....you would have built up trust by now. I dont understand how she sleeps at night....knowing what you are going through and that a pup she bred is potentially in a serious situation


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

chichi said:


> No....I wouldnt let Cooper go back to her at this point either but when the issues first started...if she had been there for you....you would have built up trust by now. I dont understand how she sleeps at night....knowing what you are going through and that a pup she bred is potentially in a serious situation


Nope i expected alot more, i messaged her when it 1st started and had no reply.

For years we researched the breed, i e mailed numerous breeders and one had us on list for potential pup yrs ago, this breeder was really helpful and before we were even considering buying she offered to let us visit and let the kids meet her dogs. When we lost Redd we had put in the initial research but the above breeder had stopped breeding Ddbs

We looked elsewhere and probably rushed, we did speak to many breeders but coops breeder had letters with good Hip scored adults, and told us you would never find a better dog around kids than hers.......

Redd mollosser Dogues meet up with their pups for walks etc we've had nothing like that


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

I've been following your thread for sometime now, I haven't been able to add anything constructive to you as I have no experience at all....
but I just wanted to say my heart goes out to you and your family, you have done so much to help your dog, you have gone the extra mile for him and I can see most on here support you and respect you on whatever the outcome,

but I cant help but feel that you think you have to answer and explain your situation time and time again to certain ones who may have made you feel lets say "uncomfortable" and maybe made you think you are giving up on Cooper... NEVER even think this and NEVER feel you have to justify youself on here, like I said most do support whatever you feel you need to do to keep you and your family safe....

My heart and thoughts are with you at this awful time
x


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

diablo said:


> reg i think you are being massively unfair on yourself , you haven't failed cooper at all , you've never let him down ever so don't you dare even think that!!!!!
> sometimes it just happens you could be the best bloody dog owner in the world and STILL have this happen!!!!
> take care of yourself and big hugs to you and your family (((hugs)))) xx


I agree. I will not hear of you blaming yourself, Reg, or even thinking for a minute you have let him down. He is one lucky dog to have found you, but I think the kindest thing now would be to let him go. Could you really send him off to a rescue, knowing his problems, and not knowing what someone else might do about them? I don't think you would ever have any peace.

Whatever you decide, we are all behind you.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

What Newfiesmum said SQUARED!

Unless you'd consider Shrap's offer of help?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Judging by everything you have said you have not let him down, you have battled on tirelessly. I do not believe you have been the cause of his issues its sadly just the way he is. Some people seem not to believe you can simply have a dog with a dodgy temperament it has to be a fault of the owner - if that were true why is one of the breeding mantras that you should be breeding for temperament?

With Dougie I can open his mouth to look at his teeth or take something off him I have literally had my hand in his jaws to get a bit of bone out that had wedged on a tooth. I can fiddle with his ears or eyes, in fact you could do anything to him without even a growl. My previous dog (Tibetan Terrier) would have had your hand off if you tried to go near his mouth - he never ever bit but gave serious warning, he was ill and had to have daily medication so it was a daily trial tricking him to have his huge pill. He was treated no different than Dougie has been he just wasn't so sweet natured, but it was just that one specific thing sort of get away from my mouth or else so it was easily manageable. 

I think Redg you should take time out to think your own thoughts and reach your own decision, its very emotive the situation you are in and its not fair for people to try to sway you when they don't have to live with this daily. To everyone saying you should rehome - would you want that responsibility on your shoulders if he seriously hurt someone.

Best wishes whatever you decide


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

As a very young pup he got under the bed, i looked under to call him and he growled and stood firm, it was of no threat he was tiny but i immediately thought oh dear.

The behaviorists answer was to stop him going under the bed, we did as told but this behavior turns up everywhere. 

At 12 weeks old we took him to the dog park, he went for the 1st dog he met. He met other puppies and went for them, i believe he went for every dog he met that day. This made any socialization very difficult. A Jrt in the family spent alot of time with him as a pup, their relationship seemed different he liked her, my gf said he's had to be kept from pulling at her aggressively aswell.

Today had to take my gf to work, called coop to come into the hall, he just stared at me, i approached his line and he growled and bit my arm, not hard or with much intent, almost mouthy but certainly not right.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

redginald said:


> As a very young pup he got under the bed, i looked under to call him and he growled and stood firm, it was of no threat he was tiny but i immediately thought oh dear.
> 
> The behaviorists answer was to stop him going under the bed, we did as told but this behavior turns up everywhere.
> 
> ...


I know everyone on here, well most, will say that puppies that young are not aggressive, but I have seen it. We had a puppy about 40 years ago who at 10 weeks old really flew at the little boy next door, who had done absolutely nothing to him. He turned out to be very untrustworthy around people as well. A puppy that age will often growl if you try to take something away from him, but done properly he will soon get over it. To growl just because you are invading his space is not normal.

I think we all admire the effort, work and expense you have put in to try to salvage your relationship with this dog. I am never one to give up with animals, but I can't see anything else for you to try, can you?

I am rather wondering if he perhaps has a mental illness that is not going to show up on any scans and is not going to improve with training either. It happens.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I really feel for you reading this.

I rehomed a dog many years ago. After 18 months of throwing everything i had at the problem we simply had to accept she wasn't the right dog for us and we were not the right owners for her.

Interestingly it was later discoverred she had pretty bad HD.

She was bolshy, difficult, wrecked the house and despite all the training made little progress in being anything like obedient. She also had displayed some aggression although nothing i dont think a more experienced GSD owner couldnt have resolved quite quickly so a different story to Cooper. 

It was the hardest decision we ever made so you really do have my sympathy but you must ask yourself the serious What Ifs at this point.

What if Coop seriously hurts you or a member of your family ??
If you can find a rescue that will take him What if he seriously hurts someone else during what will undoubtedly be a very stressful transition. What is his prognosis for living a happy, healthy life (given the vets assesment and that of your behaviourist) What if the rescue can get someone to take him on ??

You have clearly done your very best by your boy but maybe it is time to let him go in as calm and peaceful way as possible.

Much Love xxx


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I know everyone on here, well most, will say that puppies that young are not aggressive, but I have seen it. We had a puppy about 40 years ago who at 10 weeks old really flew at the little boy next door, who had done absolutely nothing to him. He turned out to be very untrustworthy around people as well. A puppy that age will often growl if you try to take something away from him, but done properly he will soon get over it. To growl just because you are invading his space is not normal.
> 
> I think we all admire the effort, work and expense you have put in to try to salvage your relationship with this dog. I am never one to give up with animals, but I can't see anything else for you to try, can you?
> 
> I am rather wondering if he perhaps has a mental illness that is not going to show up on any scans and is not going to improve with training either. It happens.


I wonder this, i posted about the pup situation on here and most said pups don't know what aggressive is at that age. I didn't think it was normal when i saw it.
I don't know why it happened, i slate myself but there are loads of people who own dogs who practice negative training methods, or no methods, or wing it. They still don't end up with dogs like this. I may be no Victoria Stilwell but I've Never hit him or done anything to make me a threat, apart from invading space etc, but why did he react as a 10 week old pup with no negative experience yet formed ?

I find it interesting what you've said, as you say mental health affects ALOT of people , occasionally grown adults even parents do the unthinkable to others, children, even their own children, but any dog can apparently be made perfectly mentally stable by waving hot dog sausages in front of it.


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

I do feel for you, I have followed your threads with Coop, I know how hard you have tried.

I fully understand its your tough decision but I think if I were in the position I would have to PTS. Coop can't be happy- thinking of the future if his hips deteriorate he will need the op anyway. Every time his bad behaviour is practiced it gets worse, more ingrained, harder to cure. Sorry to sound bleak, but I don't see a happy ending for Coop. You have spoken to the rescue lady, who sounds very knowledgable. I think for everyones long term happiness and safety it may be time to book the appointment with your vet.


Sorry

Amy


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> As a very young pup he got under the bed, i looked under to call him and he growled and stood firm, it was of no threat he was tiny but i immediately thought oh dear.
> 
> The behaviorists answer was to stop him going under the bed, we did as told but this behavior turns up everywhere.
> 
> ...


It does sound as though any time you tell Cooper to do anything, he reacts negatively. As though it's a massive battle of wills? I think this is more than any 'normal' dog owner could cope with, especially given that you have children. I'm guessing that folk with vast experience of this breed are going to give you the best guidance. You are doing all you can and trying to do the best both for your family and Cooper - nobody could do more.

Keep us posted, I know we are all thinking of you.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> *i slate myself* but there are loads of people who own dogs who practice negative training methods, or no methods, or wing it. They still don't end up with dogs like this.
> 
> but any dog can apparently be made perfectly mentally stable by waving hot dog sausages in front of it.


reg i think you've just been incredibly unlucky , is all. the breeder you got coop from ticked all the right boxes for you and you know there are people out there that have the gift of the gab and would make you believe they were the best thing since sliced bread and thats what she did , i'm horrified to read everything i have about coops breeder rather than help the breed progress doing it a huge dis service. bordeaux aren't bad dogs reg problem is it's become a minefield out there as so many people are breeding them , the film 'turner and hooch' did the breed no favours at all as at the time every man and his dog (scuse the pun) wanted one
you know reg i've just looked on a free ad site , something i don't often do and there are 10 pages advertising bordeaux puppies for sale - so who do you know who to trust ? when everyone is professing they have the ''best'' dogs and the ''best'' puppies from the ''best'' lines these are the first places people look and the first places that ''grab'' people in.
you've been horribly failed by the breeder , you yourself haven't failed in anyway at all , it's just another who let you down which is sadly becoming more and more frequent now and these people should be stamped on from a great height when they offer all these promises and fail to recognize miserably that there is a potential problem with a line they have , i mean if it's more than one dog from a litter that is suffering there's a problem , right?
i think you have done all you possibly can reg and no one can knock you for all you've done to try get cooper sorted and you know when it's getting to a stage your literally living in fear of sharing your life with a dog and dread what a new day brings , it's time to put yourself and your family first. xx


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> I wonder this, i posted about the pup situation on here and most said pups don't know what aggressive is at that age. I didn't think it was normal when i saw it.
> I don't know why it happened, i slate myself but there are loads of people who own dogs who practice negative training methods, or no methods, or wing it. They still don't end up with dogs like this. I may be no Victoria Stilwell but I've Never hit him or done anything to make me a threat, apart from invading space etc,* but why did he react as a 10 week old pup with no negative experience yet formed ?*
> 
> I find it interesting what you've said, as you say mental health affects ALOT of people , occasionally grown adults even parents do the unthinkable to others, children, even their own children, but any dog can apparently be made perfectly mentally stable by waving hot dog sausages in front of it.


I know this is a different situation but I want to tell you that a few years back, I was down for a Lab pup and went to visit the litter for the first time - pups were THREE weeks old.

The stud dog was from a really top notch Lab breeder. The dam (I met her) was an adorable, friendly, affectionate girl.

Again, please note these dogs were THREE weeks old.

Within minutes of meeting 'my' pup, I felt uneasy. He simply did not seem as keen on interacting as all the other pups. I put it down to his being tired maybe.

I returned twice more. I swear to you, every time the pup was more withdrawn and I grew more unhappy.

On the third visit, the pups were 7 weeks old and 'my' pup actually HID under a chair to avoid interacting with anyone.

And this is a pup from a 'good' litter; all the other pups were happy and bouncy and friendly. The mother and a daugher from a previous mating were there - both typical Labs, lovely and affectionate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, sometimes a pup can have 'issues' EVEN when from 'good' parents.

So please - don't blame yourself!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> I wonder this, i posted about the pup situation on here and most said pups don't know what aggressive is at that age. I didn't think it was normal when i saw it.
> I don't know why it happened, i slate myself but there are loads of people who own dogs who practice negative training methods, or no methods, or wing it. They still don't end up with dogs like this. I may be no Victoria Stilwell but I've Never hit him or done anything to make me a threat, apart from invading space etc, but why did he react as a 10 week old pup with no negative experience yet formed ?
> 
> I find it interesting what you've said, as you say mental health affects ALOT of people , occasionally grown adults even parents do the unthinkable to others, children, even their own children, but any dog can apparently be made perfectly mentally stable by waving hot dog sausages in front of it.


If any dog could become stable by waving hot dogs in front of him then there would be no need for dog trainers and specialized veterinary behaviorists.

The truth is that most dog are indeed incredibly forgiving and resilient. Most dogs tolerate rough handling, unfair handling, inconsistent handling and just plain lack of any handling and dont end up a bite danger. *Most* dogs. 
You chose a molosser. From an iffy breeder. 


ouesi said:


> Also know that when your DDB hits his teenage phase, you will effectively set yourself up for a lot of head butting. Its no coincidence that so many slow to mature giant breeds end up in rescue around 10month to 2 years.


This was in January of this year.
In March:


ouesi said:


> Dogues are a molosser breed, and the ones who dont do well with manhandling tend to *really* not do well with that type of handling if that makes sense.
> 
> It also sounds like you have a bit of a fearful dog on your hands, and again with this type of breed, that fear often turns in to the fight part of the flight or fight equation. Dogs have 3 choices when they feel threatened. Fight, flight, avoidance.
> 
> But eventually he will default to fight even when flight and avoidance are a possibility. I see this all the time with big, powerful, guardian breeds.


Cooper may indeed have something mentally wrong with him. 
Or he may just be a typical molosser guardian breed who didnt get good early socialization and who doesnt mesh with your handling.

Lots of dogs are like this. Lots of breeds are like this. I know what my personality is like, what my handling is like, and I would make a terrible home for a huge array of dogs. Give me a working malinois and I will likely turn it in to a neurotic mess. Give the same dog to my friend and that same dog will turn in to a dream dog. Yet she has no clue what to do with a less drivey dog like a dane. Nor would she enjoy such a dog and you can bet the dog would pick up on that too.

The fact that when Cooper bit you just today it was with intent but he did not harm you, says to me that this dog is a good candidate for rehabilitation. That he does not have a mental problem, that its not a case of him just not being right in the head. 
He is a guardian breed. A dog who has hundreds of years of breeding to NOT back down from pressure or a perceived threat. Note I say perceived because just because we dont see our actions as threatening doesnt mean the dog doesnt. 
I find it telling that most of the incidents where youve had issues with Cooper has been with someone approaching him, someone entering his space. Think about what makes a good guard dog, what makes a good war dog and think about how Cooper behaves when his space is invaded. To me it makes perfect sense.

I hope something comes up on the rescue front. I would love to see this dog given a second chance. However I also fully understand if you choose to PTS. There are far worse things for a dog to suffer than humane euthanasia IMO. 
I also hope that when you get ready to select another dog for your family, you will remember the lessons learned from Cooper and make a more realistic choice of breed for your family and your personality. Im sorry if that sound harsh, I dont mean it to. Im just a little upset at the blame the dog turn this thread has made. We humans are the ones who bred dogs to be who they are. Blaming a dog for what we created is just not cool. JMO.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I probably rushed getting him and followed my heart not head, i was still upset about Redd and think it got the better of me.

I called many breeders, many of which were clearly not worth touching. His breeder seemed genuine gave the right answers and had great hip scores.

SDH and others kept saying to meet the pups etc and not to just get the 1st pups ee see. I knew better, wish i listened.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Reg please stop beating yourself up.

I got my Billy after ben died, my family found the breeder in the exchange and mart, ready the next day to pick him up. She actually was a great breeder who really cared and had great dogs who did well in the show ring etc.

Did everything wrong for now standards, however I had the most loyal and gentle dog anyone could ever know. He was so placid.

It is a minefiled out there now. I am still confused and worried about my next pup, I just don't know who is really as they seem!

It is not your fault.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> *I probably rushed getting him and followed my heart not head, i was still upset about Redd and think it got the better of me.*
> 
> I called many breeders, many of which were clearly not worth touching. His breeder seemed genuine gave the right answers and had great hip scores.
> 
> SDH and others kept saying to meet the pups etc and not to just get the 1st pups ee see. I knew better, wish i listened.


reg it's understandable , many others go on to do the exact same thing. i looked and spoke to plenty of people when i lost my boy , thing is not everyone has the capability to walk away  which is why when i go look at pups and speak to breeders i take no one along but myself because i've always refused to feel 'pressured' into something i don't feel is right and you do especially when you have your family with you , some breeders will insist that everyone is there and feels the same which is only natural , but i think going along first to take a look isn't a bad thing , you could always turn up at another time arranged mutually so the breeder can meet everyone.
despite what others think , coopers breed is irrelevant you could have run into the exact same problems with any other breed when purchased from the same ''type'' of breeder.
i've known some terrific first time owners take on what are known as ''difficult'' breeds and raise them as perfect family dogs , you have given cooper chance after chance after chance he could be exactly the same or worse still with someone completely different who he isn't familiar with.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> If any dog could become stable by waving hot dogs in front of him then there would be no need for dog trainers and specialized veterinary behaviorists.
> 
> The truth is that most dog are indeed incredibly forgiving and resilient. Most dogs tolerate rough handling, unfair handling, inconsistent handling and just plain lack of any handling and dont end up a bite danger. *Most* dogs.
> You chose a molosser. From an iffy breeder.
> ...


Appreciate that, and i can't imagine ill be getting another dog, not after this.

His hip dysplasia is only his left hip, they are unsure but may have been caused by a trauma as a pup. We don't recall anything that could cause it but i wonder if he did get hurt, we were unaware and cuddled him etc causing him pain, that he now associates with people.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> Appreciate that, and i can't imagine ill be getting another dog, not after this.


wouldn't let this whole scenario put you off having another dog at all reg , you sound like a lovely patient family that have a lot to offer a dog. as i said none of the blame lies with you at all you've done everything you possibly can and more , a damn lot more than others would have done in the same position.
i know people are getting very emotional on the thread but that is certainly not helping you or the situation you find yourself in with cooper. it's an honorable thing to want to see a dog saved but they aren't in your families position and don't have a dog around them behaving aggressively towards yourself and your family , bloody horrible reg.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Reg, alot of us let our hearts rule our heads & it is so easy in retrospect to think of things you should have done. 

My dogs are both from rescue centres & I did exactly the same with Roxy, her sad story pulled at my heart & I didn't really stop to consider the implications of taking on a dog with behavioural issues. There was no way we were experienced enough to deal with her & tbh I think we have just been lucky with our situation that we have been able to change things. If my OH had not been off work for so long supervising the dogs (Roxy was attacking Toby initially) then she would no longer be living with us. 

I agree with other, you have done your best with Cooper, you have sought advice, you have made changes, etc & yet there are still big problems. This is not failing but you do have to realise your limits (& Coopers) at some point. 

Honestly, my thoughts are with you at this difficult time


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Reg stop beating yourself up, You are no way to blame, IMO their is blame but it doesnt lay at your door, theres only one place the blame lies and thats with the bloody breeder. They are the ones, that supposed to breed with knowledge and match good pedigrees both for health and temperament. They are also the ones that supposed to nurture the pups and give them early habituation and socialisation that can shape the dog to come. Didnt she also sell on the stud dog as well? I still say that a lot of Coops problems come from his breeding and the fact that he was reared outside, if he didnt have enough handling and early contact that wouldnt have helped matters. Also I think you said she had quite a few dogs and more then one litter on the ground at one time too, which also smacks possibly that they didnt get the handling and human contact they hould have when young. 

You had no help from her either when you started getting problems or all the way through. I understand that your not the only one either who brought a pup from her and hasnt really had any help. So dont blame yourself you have tried behaviourists carried out what they have said and you cant do much more then that.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

diablo said:


> reg it's understandable , many others go on to do the exact same thing. i looked and spoke to plenty of people when i lost my boy , thing is not everyone has the capability to walk away  which is why when i go look at pups and speak to breeders i take no one along but myself because i've always refused to feel 'pressured' into something i don't feel is right and you do especially when you have your family with you , some breeders will insist that everyone is there and feels the same which is only natural , but i think going along first to take a look isn't a bad thing , you could always turn up at another time arranged mutually so the breeder can meet everyone.
> despite what others think , coopers breed is irrelevant you could have run into the exact same problems with any other breed when purchased from the same ''type'' of breeder.
> i've known some terrific first time owners take on what are known as ''difficult'' breeds and raise them as perfect family dogs , you have given cooper chance after chance after chance he could be exactly the same or worse still with someone completely different who he isn't familiar with.


Couldnt agree more. I didnt go out to get a Malamute or a pup when I got Kobi, the dog I had gone to see an adult, one of the girls I had at the time wouldnt take too, I didnt even know there were pups available and certainly not Mals. After the failure with one of mine and the one I did go to see, out he come, alarm bells went off, but OH and my daughter wanted him, which I gave into against not being sure.
As it happened in the end my initially instincts paid off and I had hell of a time with him it got sorted in the end but took me a long time to do it.

So no ones infalibel Reg, we all make mistakes, and if anyone tells you they have never made any then im afraid they are telling great big porkie pies. I knew better and even went against my intial instincts.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Cheers, it's a horrible situation. My life revolves around the people who live in my house, one of the people being our dog, I love them all dearly, my priority is my kids, but i still want whats best for Cooper. I don't know if i could deal with the uncertainty of rehoming him, you hear of terrible things that happen to dogs, especially dogs of breeds like this, I follow rescues and forever seeing starved dogs, dogs used as bate dogs, dogs drowned beaten and dumped, not to mention any dangerous situations he could be put in. My priority is that none of my family suffer, including Cooper 

Iv'e e mailed Fitzpatricks but iv'e been honest about his behavior, part of me feels like it would be like a lion waking up in your living room with its leg stitched together, i just can't see it being an option to be honest.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Cheers, it's a horrible situation. My life revolves around the people who live in my house, one of the people being our dog, I love them all dearly, my priority is my kids, but i still want whats best for Cooper. I don't know if i could deal with the uncertainty of rehoming him, you hear of terrible things that happen to dogs, especially dogs of breeds like this, I follow rescues and forever seeing starved dogs, dogs used as bate dogs, dogs drowned beaten and dumped, not to mention any dangerous situations he could be put in. My priority is that none of my family suffer, including Cooper
> 
> Iv'e e mailed Fitzpatricks but iv'e been honest about his behavior, part of me feels like it would be like a lion waking up in your living room with its leg stitched together, i just can't see it being an option to be honest.


Well you cant say you havent tried, got nothing to lose contacting them. I think Malmum said he has operated on an extremely agressive dogs might have been a GSD if I remember correctly.

Have you ever tried a natural calmative, Zyklenes had good results and with members dogs aswell a fair few swear by it. You can buy it in as little as packs of 8
so might be worth a trial even, again you have nothing to loose. its based on casien a protein found in milk so completely harmless. If it did work you can get it from vets and if vets prescribe it and you got it from them you may even be covered on the insurance.

If you want to read more on it.

Zylkène - For life&#39;s ups and downs

One on line pharmacy I use do them, but shop around if you are going to try them
Online Vet | Get Cheap Pet Medicine and Treatments Online From Vet-Medic - Vet-Medic


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Depending on what happens may try these tablets.

Called another rescue who have read my e mail, he is up for discussion tonight


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Depending on what happens may try these tablets.
> 
> Called another rescue who have read my e mail, he is up for discussion tonight


Its such a hard position to be in Reg, and your loyalties must be so split, with cooper and the family its such a hard decision, on one hand common sense has to prevail, but even then its not just black and white as you still care for and and love the dog so its far from easy especially with kids involved. If its just you and even the girlfriend it wouldnt be so bad. See what the rescue has to say or if they can come up with anything. otherwise you have nothing to lose trying the zyklene and there is also others. You never know without trying. Kobi was off his head with the fireworks and in a right state and last 2 nights they have been bad, but since he has had his adaptil collar and plug ins plus I tried a heomeopathic calming treatment last night he was so chilled out he even slept through a lot of them and even then didnt get into a state, so sometimes they can work, even if you have to try a few, to see what works on the dog in question. If its chilled him out and made him able to cope better and be relaxed (Kobi I mean) who knows with cooper, worth a go perhaps.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

As others have said stop beating yourself up, its not helping you or Cooper. I believe someone very experienced in this breed has given you her view, I would say she is much more qualified to advise then us ordinary dog owners who have never owned such a breed.

You say you have only ever used gentle methods with Cooper (I do remember very early on some advised you to be "tougher") , I say thank god you were gentle or the outcome could have been much more serious than it is now. A friend of my sons had a Neopolitan Mastiff, I may be wrong but I think similar sort of dog to a DDB? He was a horrible owner believing in shall we say assertive methods, thankfully he was rehomed as he did not like the mess he made but throughout he still remained a sweet natured dog. Do you honestly think that would be the case with Coops?

I just had a quick look on what is said about DDB

"The Dogue de Bordeaux is a very calm tempered but protective breed and rarely needs to show aggressiveness. As they are loyally devoted to their family they will do anything they can to protect you and the rest of your family while still being a balanced dog." Does that sound like Cooper?

You have to do what is right for you and your family - I include Cooper in your family


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> Called another rescue who have read my e mail, he is up for discussion tonight


this is rather worrying reg. i'm going to say what i feel because i do need to get it off my chest
you've already approached cane corso uk and molosser breed rescue and jackie the founder and co-ordinator has given you her opinion , now i will say again jackie is extremely experienced with large molossoid dog breeds she's even worked with reactive dogs previously and placed them very carefully into homes. now if jackie has said she will not take him , then reg , there has to be something completely and utterly wrong and she hasn't liked at all what she's been told , if a rescue has to have a discussion about a dog then i'd question where their priorities actually lie , is it saving the dog , or something else a bit more sinister ? not all rescues get things right reg , maybe that is why jackie refused to take him as she felt with everything you said he were unworkable and would be very , very hard to place imo she did and said all the right things which should have been a huge wake up call.
could you personally risk cooper going into the wrong foster placement or home because someone got things dreadfully ''wrong''?
what does your wife actually feel about all this reg ? what has she said , what does she feel is best for cooper ?
you know reg you are going to get varying opinions on what folks feel is best but the truth is no one else has to live with cooper , only you. could you honestly inflict what you've been through with cooper on someone else or another family ? imagine what you feel he may be like if he's put through the operation because he will be going straight to foster , should you surrender him , now imagine someone else in your situation with a dog that doesn't know them and completely out of his comfort zone , can you honestly 110% vouch for theirs and coopers safety?

something else reg , maybe ring jackie up personally again and at least ask if she would be kind enough to come to you and at least assess him , see if she will give you a face to face opinion rather than one over the phone i'm sure she most probably would if she thought it would help you come to a firm decision.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

sorry redginald I have to agree 100% with Diablo. If I were in your position I would ask myself if I was considering rehoming because I genuinly felt I was the cause of Coopers problems and with a different owner he would be a completely different dog - or was I making an easier choice for myself and passing the problem on, with possibly tragic consequences. 

Hand on heart, do you really worry for the safety of your girlfriend and children, even yourself? If the answer is yes then I think you are a good caring man and know rehoming is not the answer.

If you are not sure then as Diablo suggested if you get the experienced rescue lady to actually see Coops in action so to speak if she would agree then that is someone you maybe should listen too. My heart breaks for you it really does


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Keeping a dog alive at any cost is not always in the dog's best interest, only the dog lover's!


I have to say, I agree with this. You see this mindset in rat communities a lot, too; keeping an animal going and going when it hasn't been happy for months, just because they don't want to say bye.

Reginald, Im NOT saying the above is you. I wouldn't even dare to tell you what you should do; this is your dog, you know him better than anyone here.
One thing I learned after getting my dog was that people online are not god. 
Yes, you can glean some really useful stuff from people on forums, those who have experience you don't. But similarly, I've had advise from people on forums which was just complete rubbish, and would have been very damaging if I'd been in the mindset of following everyone's advice blindly.

Really, YOU are the only one who has seen cooper, no-one else here has. 
At best, people can tell you what they think they'd do in your situation, but Im sure none of us really know until we are!

I feel you've been through so much with Cooper. I often think about you when Im at the end of my tether with Dresden, and how you kept on working and working at sorting it out with your dog; so many wouldn't.

So Im not going to even hypothesise what I'd do in your boots, or dare to tell you I know more about your dog than you do.
I just wish you good luck and good wishes, in whatever you decide to do.

When I first got into rat rescue, I had opinions on the correct 'ethics' to run a rescue with thrown at me all over.
And for a good while, I ran my rescue as I thought I 'should' do, not how I really felt I wanted to. 
And every time I made a decision on an animal based on someone else's opinion, and ignored my own gut, I regretted it severely.

Now, I do ONLY what I feel is right, ignore anyone else. I've not regretted it since.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I thought ages ago that you should give the dog up. A puppy just shouldn't be that hard work. People rehabilitate adult dogs, but they usually know what they are taking on and have the experience to deal with the problems. 

A decent rescue should assess him and make an informed decision as to whether he can be rehomed. 

If you do place him in rescue then you are going to have to live with the knowledge of him being in a cold kennel through the winter. This is not easy for a dog. 

I couldn't put my dogs in rescue. My choice would be PTS. But we all feel differently.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I don't think there is any 'right' answer here, sadly.

I do agree with those who say if someone from a breed rescue, someone really experienced, could come and personally assess Cooper, that would be helpful.

That aside, I simply join with others in wishing you all the best Reginald. Sending lots of good wishes your way!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I suppose there is a big part of me that thinks he may thrive under somebody else, someone who understands dog behavior as 2nd nature. I follow things told to me by behaviorists and carry them out, such as touch targeting etc but i work full time my girlfriend works part time and have a family, so i can't devote hours to his training, what's to say somebody who can spend time couldn't change him ? 

Then there is the half he could be rehomed, but i recieve a call to say he has hurt somebody

Just then we had finished dinner, me and my gf were either side of the dog gate wanting to pass each other, coop was waiting by the gate hoping to hoover up under the table, my girlfriend attempted to block him as the gate opened, i noticed he was unhappy, his eyes were flicking side to side watching us both, before i could open my mouth he growled at her then barked at her, i said to back off him and he just barged her out of the way and went in the living room.

He was crowded, she was stopping him getting something he wanted, it's hard to avoid this situation in a family home.

To be honest the kids and my girlfriend have been prisoners in their own home, she can't control him during the day, so he has to sleep most of it in the hallway (he's pretty lazy most the day normally anyway) alot of it is his boisterous more than anything else, if wound up he'll knock the kids over as if they're not there, apart from the situation i mentioned earlier he has never growled at the kids in fairness, and if calm is pretty good with them. The kids are really wary of him. There was also the situation where coop was in the hall snoozing, his stag bar was by the door ( he wasn't chewing it, niether did he have possession of it) my little girl walked past him to the stairs and he growled like a gremlin and bolted towards the stag bar and picked it up, i was slaughtered on here for letting kids near him and his toy, i still found this unacceaptable. Anything can suddenly become "Coopers" remotes, clothes, so the chances of passing between cooper and 1 of his toys are pretty high.

Then theres times like just now, he ripped some letters off the fridge was chewing them, thet were now his, i leant down picked them up and treated him, he just gave them up. It's such a shame because this part of his behavior has got better.

My girlfriend says it's like living in jurassic park, i know you shouldn't leave kids alone with a dog, but you can't even send the kids off to the bathroom etc, they need escorting around the house.

I'm just trying to open up my options, so i can make the right decision, i think i know what's coming though


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I recognise some of what you describe above from when Dex came to us; he was quite similar for the first three or four months. Constant growling when we tried to move him or take something away from him, air snapping literally every time anyone tried to interact with him.

It's very scary - and I don't even have children, so I really think you and your family have been absolute stars 

I just wonder if something like the Zkylene (spelling?) might be worth trying just in case it makes a difference?

Don't know if this is relevant, but Dex also has hip dysplasia on one side.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

redginald said:


> I suppose there is a big part of me that thinks he may thrive under somebody else, someone who understands dog behavior as 2nd nature. I follow things told to me by behaviorists and carry them out, such as touch targeting etc but i work full time my girlfriend works part time and have a family, so i can't devote hours to his training, what's to say somebody who can spend time couldn't change him ?


i don't think theres anyone out there reg in reality that knows dog behaviour like second nature , sometimes even the professionals get things completely wrong. i don't think theres a person in the world that can devote 24 hours a day to a dog either , sadly these homes reg , simply don't exist - of course who am i to say cooper can't be changed because i don't know the answer to that i'm afraid no one does and no one can offer you promises or guarantees and those that can could quite simply be feeding you false hope , you have to look at everything from every angle.



redginald said:


> Then there is the half he could be rehomed, *but i recieve a call to say he has hurt somebody*


this is a possibility reg i don't know how strong a possibility because i don't know cooper all i do know is i myself couldn't live in a situation like this.



redginald said:


> My girlfriend says it's like living in jurassic park, i know you shouldn't leave kids alone with a dog, but you can't even send the kids off to the bathroom etc, they need escorting around the house.


a dog should be a pleasure to own reg , not a complete and utter nightmare , i know all dogs have their moments and have the zoomies or whatever , but no one should have to be living like this.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Reg, I am so sorry for your predicament, but I will also say that I would not be able to relax at all knowing that my children are in a house with an unpredictable, huge dog. 
Hope you find a solution soon.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> To be honest the kids and my girlfriend have been prisoners in their own home,


Reg, have you heard of "battered wife syndrome"? It's where the abnormal becomes normal. Wives (and children) become SO used to an abnormal lifestyle that they fully accept it and are quite literally unable to see how shocking their lives are. Reg, gently and quietly, you are all used to living like this and you cannot see it. It is ABNORMAL and SHOCKING.

I used to live like this with a mentally ill husband. Eventually one of my friends told me VERY bluntly that I had "Stockholm Syndrome" -near enough- and it jolted me into taking action.



> I suppose there is a big part of me that thinks he may thrive under somebody else, someone who understands dog behavior as 2nd nature.


I spent 15 years thinking that. I thought that there was a way of managing OH's behaviour and that I could learn it. I wasted 15 years looking for a magical way of handling him that would make it all better. I know now that the experts can't handle him either.

Reg I have the utmost respect for you as a caring, compassionate, loving human who is pretty much the ideal dog-owner (I'd have given up a long time ago) but, mate, your life and your family's life is seriously WRONG.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Oh Reg you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

If I had to escort my grandchildren around the house I would have the dog PTS. I know this because my old boy Grufty suddenly became very aggressive to my grandaughter when she used to live here. He started growling at me and my daughter too. He was very old and had a number of health problems that I had managed for some time, but once he changed towards kids I knew it was time to say goodbye. I know it's different to Coop because he's such a young dog and that makes you want to try everything possible. But no one can say you haven't exhausted all avenues and done your absolute best..

My heart goes out to you and your family.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

diablo said:


> a dog should be a pleasure to own reg , not a complete and utter nightmare , i know all dogs have their moments and have the zoomies or whatever , but no one should have to be living like this.


Above says everything for me - barking or jumping, chewing even humping, dog agression etc these some issues you may have to deal with if you are unlucky. My previous dog was never fully housetrained (he was ill) so every day for five years I came downstairs sniffing the air and the relief was tremendous if he hadn't done anything. Very frequently he would bark through the night even as an adult, I dealt with all that because he was a little character and part of the family - a bit like a close relative with say dementia (no offence meant here my mum has dementia). We didn't have to alter the rest of our lives, walk on egg shells there was a lot of joy with a number of unpleasant issues.



ozrex said:


> Reg, have you heard of "battered wife syndrome"? It's where the abnormal becomes normal. Wives (and children) become SO used to an abnormal lifestyle that they fully accept it and are quite literally unable to see how shocking their lives are. Reg, gently and quietly, you are all used to living like this and you cannot see it. It is ABNORMAL and SHOCKING.
> 
> I used to live like this with a mentally ill husband. Eventually one of my friends told me VERY bluntly that I had "Stockholm Syndrome" -near enough- and it jolted me into taking action.
> 
> ...


Sounds a bit dramatic if you haven't experienced anything like this (I haven't my sister has) but very very true, I do so hope you realise its wrong and you should not be living like this


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> Sounds a bit dramatic if you haven't experienced anything like this


Yup, and having to escort children around their own home is dramatic in my opinion.

I have two dogs and my neighbours' children race in and out of my house as if were their own. If Rex is in the way (he specialises in that) they all know to say "move" and Rex gets up and moves. That's normal.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ozrex said:


> Yup, and having to escort children around their own home is dramatic in my opinion.
> 
> I have two dogs and my neighbours' children race in and out of my house as if were their own. If Rex is in the way (he specialises in that) they all know to say "move" and Rex gets up and moves. That's normal.


My dogs understand "excuse me"; move is rude! I think Reg, if you are having to escort your kids around their own house, this is all going to end in one result - your children are going to grow up scared of dogs.

I know you're still in a quandary and I would be the same, but you have to see the whole picture. God bless you.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> If you do place him in rescue then you are going to have to live with the knowledge of him being in a cold kennel through the winter. This is not easy for a dog.


Sorry but I think that is an extremely unhelpful thing to say 

If Cooper is sent into rescue, then chances are he will be taken into an experienced foster home where he can be rehabilitated and his progress can be monitored properly. He isn't gonna be taken into a large rescue like the RSPCA as those sort of rescues won't have him - the kind of rescue that would take him will be a smaller rescue that is experienced in dealing with these cases, not just a general kennel type rescue. I think Reginald has thought this through properly and wouldn't want to have Cooper taken into a cold 'kennel' type rescue, as this will do little to help his behaviour and obviously won't help his HD.

I hope something comes along soon, its a massive shame that the Children have to be accompanied around the house because of Cooper. I have to say, I don't know what i'd do in your position - probably just what you are doing now... just try to find ANY positive solution. Hats off to you for trying so hard


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm really late to this thread, but wanted to say i'm really sorry for what you're going through and wish you all the best, whatever decision you make.

I dont think anyone can comment without meeting Cooper and being in your situation. I do believe some dogs have demons, they're born like it and the safest, kindest thing to do is humanely euthanize and set them free. 

I'm guessing he has he had a full thyroid panel, out of interest?

Hugs to you and your family!


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2012)

Dober said:


> I dont think anyone can comment without meeting Cooper and being in your situation.


Im so glad to see someone say this...
I find it kind of disturbing to see PTS recommendations from folks who have never laid eyes on the dog in person.

It may well be that is the answer here, but IMO no one should be making that suggestion unless they are professionally qualified to do so, after having examined the dog in person.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

redginald said:


> I'm just trying to open up my options, so i can make the right decision, i think i know what's coming though


I think you do. It's just very hard to do it. But, in all honesty, you cannot keep a dog the size of Coop around if he's likely to be dangerous to anyone. You might feel bad about him - but you are going to feel dreadful if he does something to one of the kids.

It's a crap predicament but you are going to have to act eventually. And you know that. It's hard but you need to do it a.s.a.p. for everyone's benefit - including yours and Coops.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Im so glad to see someone say this...
> I find it kind of disturbing to see PTS recommendations from folks who have never laid eyes on the dog in person.
> 
> It may well be that is the answer here, but IMO no one should be making that suggestion unless they are professionally qualified to do so, after having examined the dog in person.


I have to agree with this completely really.

I would never tell the person to pts their dog not really knowing him.

I don't know the breed well and maybe they can show their emotions but has he ever bitten anyone and drew any blood? Maybe someone could work with him if they have no children etc.

I can't imagine if this were me, it must be such a heartbreaking situation.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Im so glad to see someone say this...
> *I find it kind of disturbing to see PTS recommendations from folks who have never laid eyes on the dog in person.*
> 
> It may well be that is the answer here, but IMO no one should be making that suggestion unless they are professionally qualified to do so, after having examined the dog in person.


While I agree with you, my comments have been to counteract those who think one has to keep a dog alive under any circumstance.

While no one here has met the dog, Cooper has been seen by behaviourists and vets - professionally qualified people that some are saying Reginald should not listen to. He has been in touch with many breed specialist rescues who cannot help and have given their advice. Reginald has a hard enough decision to make and has put every effort into finding a happy outcome, and while that outcome still has to be decided, I find it grossly unfair that some posters seems to be still pushing that he should do more to ensure the dogs stays alive.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> While I agree with you, my comments have been to counteract those who think one has to keep a dog alive under any circumstance.
> 
> While no one here has met the dog, Cooper has been seen by behaviourists and vets - professionally qualified people that some are saying Reginald should not listen to. He has been in touch with many breed specialist rescues who cannot help and have given their advice. Reginald has a hard enough decision to make and has put every effort into finding a happy outcome, and while that outcome still has to be decided, I find it grossly unfair that some posters seems to be still pushing that he should do more to ensure the dogs stays alive.


Agree 100%

Sometimes on PF people seem to go into 'save the animal' mode which really wont help Reginald.

Its harsh but the reality is not all animals can be saved and sometimes its a genuine release for animal and owner when they are let to go with dignity.

I think the OP has got sound advice from their own vet / behaviourist / specialists and its wrong for people to write telling them to question what they have been told.

Only the OP knows what Coop is like and the impact this is having on their family.

Reg I cant give you advice - this is waaaaay beyond any knowledge I have.

I just wish you the best of luck with the route you choose.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> While I agree with you, my comments have been to counteract those who think one has to keep a dog alive under any circumstance.
> 
> While no one here has met the dog, Cooper has been seen by behaviourists and vets - professionally qualified people that some are saying Reginald should not listen to. He has been in touch with many breed specialist rescues who cannot help and have given their advice. Reginald has a hard enough decision to make and has put every effort into finding a happy outcome, and while that outcome still has to be decided, I find it grossly unfair that some posters seems to be still pushing that he should do more to ensure the dogs stays alive.


Precisely this. I was one who thought a second opinion should be sought, but I think Reg needs to realise as well that pts is not the worst option for Cooper and that people will be behind him whatever road he takes.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> While I agree with you, my comments have been to counteract those who think one has to keep a dog alive under any circumstance.
> 
> While no one here has met the dog, Cooper has been seen by behaviourists and vets - professionally qualified people that some are saying Reginald should not listen to. He has been in touch with many breed specialist rescues who cannot help and have given their advice. Reginald has a hard enough decision to make and has put every effort into finding a happy outcome, and while that outcome still has to be decided, I find it grossly unfair that some posters seems to be still pushing that he should do more to ensure the dogs stays alive.


I agree with the above.

Everything than can be said has been by now and I think we should all leave the poor chap alone to make whatever decision is best for them all. I wish you all the best Redginald and am sorry its been so tough all along for you


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Im so glad to see someone say this...
> I find it kind of disturbing to see PTS recommendations from folks who have never laid eyes on the dog in person.


whats even more disturbing is having a really large dog like cooper and having to live like a prisoner in your own home , not only you , but your small children too , it's a lot to ask someone to continue living in those circumstances because eventually something will have to give , whether it be cooper himself , or reg and his poor family.
sometimes you don't have to see a dog to know there is a danger and anyway cooper has already seen two behaviourists , had his vets and their specialists opinions , had people speak to him that have vast experience with the breed , numerous rescues turning him down based on what has been told to them , everyone saying the exact same thing , surely they can't all be wrong can they ?


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## Shazach (Dec 18, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Everything than can be said has been by now and I think we should all leave the poor chap alone to make whatever decision is best for them all. I wish you all the best Redginald and am sorry its been so tough all along for you


Yes, that's where I am too. Couldn't say it any better than that.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

redginald said:


> I find it interesting what you've said, as you say mental health affects ALOT of people , occasionally grown adults even parents do the unthinkable to others, children, even their own children,* but any dog can apparently be made perfectly mentally stable by waving hot dog sausages in front of it.*


If only that were true eh?

I really feel for you. You've worked so hard to try to get to the bottom of Coopers issues and rehab him and you just seem to be running into brick walls whichever way you turn. Not all dogs can be saved no matter how much we want it. I don't think any of us here can advise whether to put Cooper through the op, put him to sleep or carry on as you are, I think it's a decision only you and your family can make. You're the ones who know him, you're the ones having to live with him, you're the ones speaking to experts.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2012)

diablo said:


> whats even more disturbing is having a really large dog like cooper and having to live like a prisoner in your own home , not only you , but your small children too , it's a lot to ask someone to continue living in those circumstances because eventually something will have to give , whether it be cooper himself , or reg and his poor family.
> sometimes you don't have to see a dog to know there is a danger and anyway cooper has already seen two behaviourists , had his vets and their specialists opinions , had people speak to him that have vast experience with the breed , numerous rescues turning him down based on what has been told to them , everyone saying the exact same thing , surely they can't all be wrong can they ?


Redginald's living conditions, his family, and his home are HIS choices to make. No one has a right to tell someone else how to live their life and what they should or should not tolerate.

Yes, he is talking to professionals, and IMHO at this point those of us behind our keyboards should back off and allow the people who are qualified to do so advise him without needless interference on our part.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Personally I dont think anyone should be telling Reg to do things either way, be it put to sleep or try to put him into rescue or carry on. Making suggestions that may help and might be worth trying is one thing, telling him to make certain decisions whatever they may be is another. No ones seen him and the day to day situation.
There is also an old saying never Judge a man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes. No one on here has seen the dog, and in all honesty no one from the rescues has actually seen him and assessed him properly in situ either.

There is only one person who knows what coopers like and what living with him on a daily basis is ,Reg and the family, so hes the only one that can really make the right decision which Im sure he will do.

its easy for people to say put him to sleep, do this that or the other, but he is not their dog they havent met him or seen him, and faced with the same situation themselves with a dog they have known and lived with and probably love to bits, is a whole different ball game to saying do this and do that, and in that situation themselves it may not be as black and white as they may think. "Talking" it through and weighing up things and the situation to help Reg make an informed and carefully thought out decision what ever that may be is one thing, carte blanche telling him what he should do is another.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Personally I dont think anyone should be telling Reg to do things either way, be it put to sleep or try to put him into rescue or carry on. Making suggestions that may help and might be worth trying is one thing, telling him to make certain decisions whatever they may be is another. No ones seen him and the day to day situation.
> There is also an old saying never Judge a man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes. No one on here has seen the dog, *and in all honesty no one from the rescues has actually seen him and assessed him properly in situ either.*
> 
> There is only one person who knows what coopers like and what living with him on a daily basis is ,Reg and the family, so hes the only one that can really make the right decision which Im sure he will do.
> ...


I think the bit I've emphasised in bold is a vital point.

I agree with SLED DOG HOTEL entirely - making suggestions is great and hopefully helpful to Reginald.

None of us can go beyond that though - so Reginald please just know that we all feel for you and I'm sure we're all sending you lots of good wishes at this incredibly difficult time.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I think the bit I've emphasised in bold is a vital point.
> 
> I agree with SLED DOG HOTEL entirely - making suggestions is great and hopefully helpful to Reginald.
> 
> None of us can go beyond that though - so Reginald please just know that we all feel for you and I'm sure we're all sending you lots of good wishes at this incredibly difficult time.


The only reason I mentioned about the difference between seeing and hearing and because of different perceptions of things, is because only this week, I heard of a certain breed that was in a general rescue, that was thought to shall we say have undesireable traits and there was a bit question mark as to suitability of rehoming as this dog was undergoing assessment.

A person from the actual breeds in questions own breed welfare was called in to access the dog, who after assessing him said that Oh thats normal common problem see it a lot in the breed, and they have taken him as they have breed experience and with the problem. Also as well, what often is seen as worrying and alarming to one person with lesser experience may not be to another who could shrug it off and sort it out. This may well not be the case with cooper and he could have unfixable problems its entirely true, but as even the breed specialists are only going on a description of his behaviour and not actual assessment of seeing him and what he does in situations is it a really true picture?

Personally if it was me I would like to see someone really breed Savvy and not only breed savvy, but fully experienced with behaviour problems not only in general but breed specific and they do exist, although not always easy to find, do a proper assessment once and for all. if they then say yes or no its not fixable then at least there is no doubt.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The only reason I mentioned about the difference between seeing and hearing and because of different perceptions of things, is because only this week, I heard of a certain breed that was in a general rescue, that was thought to shall we say have undesireable traits and there was a bit question mark as to suitability of rehoming as this dog was undergoing assessment.
> 
> A person from the actual breeds in questions own breed welfare was called in to access the dog, who after assessing him said that Oh thats normal common problem see it a lot in the breed, and they have taken him as they have breed experience and with the problem. Also as well, what often is seen as worrying and alarming to one person with lesser experience may not be to another who could shrug it off and sort it out. This may well not be the case with cooper and he could have unfixable problems its entirely true, but as even the breed specialists are only going on a description of his behaviour and not actual assessment of seeing him and what he does in situations is it a really true picture?
> 
> *Personally if it was me I would like to see someone really breed Savvy and not only breed savvy, but fully experienced with behaviour problems not only in general but breed specific and they do exist, although not always easy to find, do a proper assessment once and for all. if they then say yes or no its not fixable then at least there is no doubt*.


Totally agree.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Redginald's living conditions, his family, and his home are HIS choices to make. No one has a right to tell someone else how to live their life and what they should or should not tolerate.


i agree , when it's made ''public'' knowledge so to speak we can reassure reg it is in no way a ''normal'' way to live with a dog.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Personally I dont think anyone should be telling Reg to do things either way, be it put to sleep or try to put him into rescue or carry on. Making suggestions that may help and might be worth trying is one thing, telling him to make certain decisions whatever they may be is another. No ones seen him and the day to day situation.
> There is also an old saying never Judge a man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes. No one on here has seen the dog, and in all honesty no one from the rescues has actually seen him and assessed him properly in situ either.
> 
> There is only one person who knows what coopers like and what living with him on a daily basis is ,Reg and the family, so hes the only one that can really make the right decision which Im sure he will do.
> ...


We can only go by what has been said, but I gather Cooper has already been seen by a number of behaviourists. I agree that breed rescue would be a good move (although, again, he's already spoken to them so wonder why they haven't already been to assess him if they were prepared to take him on - which I gather they aren't) but in my experience, breed rescue doesn't not automatically equal breed expert. They share love of a breed, but not always experience and knowledge (even if they won't admit it) and certainly nothing like the knowledge a good behaviourist would have so I'm not sure I would listen to a breed rescue above a behaviourist.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> We can only go by what has been said, but I gather Cooper has already been seen by a number of behaviourists. I agree that breed rescue would be a good move (although, again, he's already spoken to them so wonder why they haven't already been to assess him if they were prepared to take him on - which I gather they aren't) but in my experience, breed rescue doesn't not automatically equal breed expert. They share love of a breed, but not always experience and knowledge (even if they won't admit it) and certainly nothing like the knowledge a good behaviourist would have so I'm not sure I would listen to a breed rescue above a behaviourist.


Depends on the breed expert in question if you get a good one who hands on has assesed worked with and sucessfully rehomed many many dogs with personal hands on experience, and the few that were not successful and unfixable and had to be put to sleep were in low single figures, then give me one of those anyday above some behaviourists and trainers who got most of the stuff out of books. Whilst I admit some breed rescues are a lot better then others, you cant tell me a breed specific really knowledgeable person who knows their stuff and has wide experience in both number of dogs and all the various behavioural problems that the breed can come up with and has succesffully sorted them and placed them in forever homes, knows less then probably a good deal of behaviourists.
Any behaviourist is only as good as what they know and more importantly what experiences and successes they have had. Some Ive heard of in my opinion are not worth a light and they often dont get it right.

However finding a breed expert with the breed knowledge and behavioural experience and more importantly proper practical experience and will do something hands on and help can often be the hard part.


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