# Should the RSPB be investigated?



## rona

I believe it should.

Why would they shout foul at wind turbines when they have one themselves? 

Why would they shout about predator control when they do it themselves? 

Why would they say that 90% of donations go straight to the birds when only 24% actually does? 

Fair Questions for the RSPB - You Forgot The Birds

MoS readers' fury at the RSPB after Ian Botham blast | Daily Mail Online


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## silvi

I don't know enough about the work of the RSPB to comment fully.
However, when the DM (or in this case the Mail On Sunday) choose to run a story attacking a charity, it arouses my suspicions.
It appears to me that the RSPB is being accused of not undertaking brood management on Hen Harriers, but to do so in the way requested could leave the Hen Harriers at risk of being shot down by gamekeepers. Is that correct?
If so, I think that some of the outrage is misplaced.

I am also suspicious of the _You Forgot The Birds_ organisation, as it is at least partly run by the hunting and shooting fraternity who have their own agenda.

This is not to say that the RSPB doesn't need investigating in the way all major charities do, as it _may_ be the case that some of those in charge are in it for the money rather than welfare of the birds.

But any heavy-handed attack on a charity raises my suspicions as there is usually an agenda behind it.


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## rona

Their reply
The RSPB: News: RSPB detailed response to mis-representations

Love the bit about cats as they have killed many to "protect" birds

Odd how they can kill cats, hedgehogs, foxes and sell deer and wildfowl shooting 

Akin to the RSPCA and National trust


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## Tails and Trails

Seems a common.things these days
The big charities like all other institution becoming tools off the establishment more interested in their own beuracracy and position.squanderings goodwill citizens whom fund them


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## noushka05

rona said:


> I believe it should.
> 
> Why would they shout foul at wind turbines when they have one themselves?
> 
> Why would they shout about predator control when they do it themselves?
> 
> Why would they say that 90% of donations go straight to the birds when only 24% actually does?
> 
> Fair Questions for the RSPB - You Forgot The Birds
> 
> MoS readers' fury at the RSPB after Ian Botham blast | Daily Mail Online


No I don't think they should be investigated. The RSPB falls over backwards not to be anti-shooting & this is my main criticism of them. I don't always agree with their policies but only a fool would believe birds would be better off without them.

1) Climate change is the greatest threat to life on earth, so inline with any credible conservation organisation the RSPB supports wind turbines & other renewables. Wind turbines need to be sited carefully though,where they have minimal impact on birds & other wildlife. The RSPB: Casework: Energy

2) Are you saying the RSPB are hypocritical to speak out against illegal persecution because they sometimes use predator control on common species (as a last resort) to protect a threatened species?

3) This is a very interesting analysis  Who really ?forgot the birds?? RSPB and GWCT accounts compared after Botham beamer | Ollie's Birdwatching Blog

The links are so inaccurate & misleading if they weren't so nasty they would be laughable.

Funny the mail fails to mention *Botham is himself the owner of a shoot* - no bias there then

The 'You forgot the birds' website is the usual hunt/shoot demonsing & propaganda This is just garbage >>

_ They include many farmers, wildlife volunteers and gamekeepers. These true bird lovers appreciate all types of birds and want all to flourish. They are also pragmatic. They know that foxes and cats are a nightmare for birds. They accept that you cannot have vast numbers of both birds of prey and songbirds.

If you have lots of goshawks today, you may have no kestrels tomorrow. Sparrowhawks reduce sparrow populations - the clue is in the name.
_


Its so ignorant its beyond belief. I hate it when people demonize animals. Demonisation is why we still have mindless prejudice towards so many predator species today.

Raptor numbers depend on prey species. If their prey species populations fall, so do they - until they recover. Its called ~ the balance of nature. Birds of prey are the most sensitive indicators of our environment. This is basic ecology.

Instead of reading pro shoot propaganda why not check out this scientific research on sparrowhawks Sparrowhawks are really important | Edinburgh Hawkwatch



silvi said:


> I don't know enough about the work of the RSPB to comment fully.
> However, when the DM (or in this case the Mail On Sunday) choose to run a story attacking a charity, it arouses my suspicions.
> It appears to me that the RSPB is being accused of not undertaking brood management on Hen Harriers, but to do so in the way requested could leave the Hen Harriers at risk of being shot down by gamekeepers. Is that correct?
> If so, I think that some of the outrage is misplaced.
> 
> I am also suspicious of the _You Forgot The Birds_ organisation, as it is at least partly run by the hunting and shooting fraternity who have their own agenda.
> 
> This is not to say that the RSPB doesn't need investigating in the way all major charities do, as it _may_ be the case that some of those in charge are in it for the money rather than welfare of the birds.
> 
> .


Excellent post

Yes you're quite correct. The the action plan is incredibly flawed, it wont stop hen harriers being killed, hence why the RSPB will not sign up to it.

You have seen straight through their sinister agenda Silvi. Shooting interests are now trying to slander the RSPB because they are lobbying for the licencing of grouse moors. Its the same tactic used by the Countryside Alliance against the RSPCA for daring to prosecute the Heythrop hunt.


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## Tails and Trails

actually, economic growth-production/consumption-globalisation-debt/credit-over-population system is the biggest threat to the planet.
as that is the driver and cause of climate change


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## rona

Tails and Trails said:


> actually, economic growth-production/consumption-globalisation-debt/credit-over-population system is the biggest threat to the planet.
> as that is the driver and cause of climate change


Unfortunately it's a consumer society, and those countries that aren't are being seduced by those that can profit from them 

We are all contributing 

Human birth control is the only thing that will save this planet. Not gonna happen.

Anyway I believe that the RSPB, RSPCA and National Trust have all been taken over by career conservationists, those more interested in generating money than carrying out conservation work on the ground. Half the time those people in charge have no idea of the consequences of the decisions they make for an area they have never even seen!!! 
My opinion is backed up by their accounts.


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## Knightofalbion

I have fond memories of Mr Botham's cricketing heroics for England back in the 80s, but on this occasion ....

As someone who runs a commercial shoot and has done for the past decade, and as someone who enjoys recreational shooting "I shoot a lot", he is skating on thin moral ice in his criticisms of the RSPB.

I would agree though that many directors of registered charities are making a rich living from the generous salaries that they pay themselves, which is unedifying to say the least. In my view, the charities regulatory body should investigate and require justification for these salaries, but that is another matter. (Bear in mind, that the great majority of those who actually do the 'hands on' work are on modest salaries.)
And yes, certainly, there should be transparency on how donations are actually used.

The RSPB, like the RSPCA, have 'room for improvement', but by and large they do good work. 

What's the betting we'll see infiltration of the RSPB by bloodsport enthusiasts, the same as happened with the RSPCA and National Trust, assuming it hasn't already happened.


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## rona

Like installing wind turbines and having their finger in the pie. while telling everyone else they shouldn't 
Windbyte - Wind farms in North East England, the Scottish Borders and Lothians - Birds and wind turbines
RSPB makes a killing... from windfarm giants behind turbines accused of destroying rare birds | Daily Mail Online
RSPB gives the go-ahead to bird-killing windmills | UK | News | Daily Express

Like killing birds and suffocating baby birds in their eggs and sacrificing one type of bird to save another
Royal Society for the Persecution of Birds? | Modern Gamekeeping
House Sparrow RSPB 2002 ?Decline?! ? ?2010 DEAD 90%!? ? Stubborn RSPB ?Conceit? ? ?Nothing Changes!? | Songbirds Slaughter
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/poisoning_of_sea_birds_by_the_rs

Kill cats
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/speciesfactsheet.php?id=3844

Kill Hedgehogs
http://www.scotsman.com/news/163-1-3m-hedgehog-cull-to-save-islands-birds-eggs-fails-1-1493828
http://www.snh.gov.uk/land-and-sea/managing-wildlife/uist-wader-research/aims-of-the-project/

Kill Goats, even though they were offered a home.
http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/anp...otection-of-birds-culls-goats-at-loch-lomond/
http://aberdeenvoice.com/2013/12/bloody-bloody-banks-loch-lomond/

Kill Foxes
http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/sutton_fen_fox_cubs_find_spark_rspb_criticism_1_878375

Kill deer
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0303_030303_britdeer_2.html

Odd that it's ok to kill deer to save the Capercaillie but not to relocate a few martens


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## rona

And all this while spending millions on a re-brand that had them showing these animals in their very expensive advert


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## rona

Grunger's Growls: R.S.P.B. (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds) but not other animals so it seems

It seems that the R.S.P.B. has been on quite a killing spree on their estates and nature reserves where either the R.S.P.B. or third party contract killers slaughtered the following animals:

241 Foxes
77 Mink
241 Red Deer
270 Roe Deer
6 Muntjac Deer
98 Sika Deer
Rabbits no numbers supplied 
Rats no numbers supplied
Mice no numbers supplied
Grey Squirrels no numbers supplied


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## lennythecloud

rona said:


> Grunger's Growls: R.S.P.B. (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds) but not other animals so it seems
> 
> It seems that the R.S.P.B. has been on quite a killing spree on their estates and nature reserves where either the R.S.P.B. or third party contract killers slaughtered the following animals:
> 
> 241 Foxes
> 77 Mink
> 241 Red Deer
> 270 Roe Deer
> 6 Muntjac Deer
> 98 Sika Deer
> Rabbits no numbers supplied
> Rats no numbers supplied
> Mice no numbers supplied
> Grey Squirrels no numbers supplied


For the land they own those numbers aren't massive. Four of those species are definitely non-native and a further two are more historic introductions so you can see why they may be a problem to conservationists. Deer no longer have natural predators in this country and sometimes require destruction on humane grounds and control of foxes and rodents can be a sticking plaster to protect critically threatened ground nesting birds.

I do not agree with everything the RSPB does, by any stretch. However they been noticeably under attack recently by forces connected to the game shooting lobby (if you're looking for a killing spree btw - 50 million pheasants shot for fun......)and I don't think it's any coincidence that it's come at a time when the RSPB has become slightly more vocal about the conservation issues associated with that particular industry.


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## noushka05

Tails and Trails said:


> Seems a common.things these days
> The big charities like all other institution becoming tools off the establishment more interested in their own beuracracy and position.squanderings goodwill citizens whom fund them


The hunt/shoot/farming lobby represented by the C*ntryside Alliance, CLA,NFU & pro bloodsport MP's launched a smear campaign against the RSPCA for prosecuting the heythrop hunt (camerons fave hunt) And for campaigning against the badger cull & live exports etc. This attack on the RSPB by the hunt/shoot lobby is because they have dared to voice their outrage at the extermination of our hen harriers. So just how are these two charites 'tools of the establishment?  The wealthy and the powerful (the establishment!)are trying to crush them so they carry on with their wildlife crime and animal cruelty unimpeded.



rona said:


> Unfortunately it's a consumer society, and those countries that aren't are being seduced by those that can profit from them
> 
> We are all contributing
> 
> Human birth control is the only thing that will save this planet. Not gonna happen.
> 
> Anyway I believe that the RSPB, RSPCA and National Trust have all been taken over by career conservationists, those more interested in generating money than carrying out conservation work on the ground. Half the time those people in charge have no idea of the consequences of the decisions they make for an area they have never even seen!!!
> My opinion is backed up by their accounts.


Population growth rates are beginning to plateau Rona. It is resource consumption that is the most serious threat to our planet. Which is why we must switch to green infrastructure & phase out fossil fuels by switching to renewable energy.



rona said:


> Like installing wind turbines and having their finger in the pie. while telling everyone else they shouldn't
> Windbyte - Wind farms in North East England, the Scottish Borders and Lothians - Birds and wind turbines
> RSPB makes a killing... from windfarm giants behind turbines accused of destroying rare birds | Daily Mail Online
> RSPB gives the go-ahead to bird-killing windmills | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> You have linked to what appears to be an astroturfing website & an article by that ridiculous twit James Dellingpole:lol: OMG Rona hes a national joke! lol
> 
> Like killing birds and suffocating baby birds in their eggs and sacrificing one type of bird to save another
> Royal Society for the Persecution of Birds? | Modern Gamekeeping
> House Sparrow RSPB 2002 ?Decline?! ? ?2010 DEAD 90%!? ? Stubborn RSPB ?Conceit? ? ?Nothing Changes!? | Songbirds Slaughter
> https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/poisoning_of_sea_birds_by_the_rs
> 
> A gamekeeping website lol
> 
> And another website demonising sparrowhawks:thumbdown: I suspected it was set up by the shoot lobby - another 'Save our songbirds'. But it appears to belong to this peculiar woman:eek6: Some great comments after the video though
> 
> [youtube_browser]/Cuztss77bn8[/youtube_browser]
> 
> 
> Kill cats
> http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/speciesfactsheet.php?id=3844
> 
> Kill Hedgehogs
> http://www.scotsman.com/news/163-1-3m-hedgehog-cull-to-save-islands-birds-eggs-fails-1-1493828
> http://www.snh.gov.uk/land-and-sea/managing-wildlife/uist-wader-research/aims-of-the-project/
> 
> Kill Goats, even though they were offered a home.
> http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/anp...otection-of-birds-culls-goats-at-loch-lomond/
> http://aberdeenvoice.com/2013/12/bloody-bloody-banks-loch-lomond/
> 
> Kill Foxes
> http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/sutton_fen_fox_cubs_find_spark_rspb_criticism_1_878375
> 
> Kill deer
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0303_030303_britdeer_2.html
> 
> You seem to be under the illusion that the RSPB is an animal rights organisation
> 
> Odd that it's ok to kill deer to save the Capercaillie but not to relocate a few martens


Pine marten are endangered. They are not the primary factor in capercaillie decline- climate change is though Rona...

You really ought to read this. Particularly the response from University of Sterling to this dreadful plan. https://raptorpersecutionscotland.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/information-request-1.pdf



lennythecloud said:


> For the land they own those numbers aren't massive. Four of those species are definitely non-native and a further two are more historic introductions so you can see why they may be a problem to conservationists. Deer no longer have natural predators in this country and sometimes require destruction on humane grounds and control of foxes and rodents can be a sticking plaster to protect critically threatened ground nesting birds.
> 
> I do not agree with everything the RSPB does, by any stretch. However they been noticeably under attack recently by forces connected to the game shooting lobby (if you're looking for a killing spree btw - 50 million pheasants shot for fun......)and I don't think it's any coincidence that it's come at a time when the RSPB has become slightly more vocal about the conservation issues associated with that particular industry.


50 million pheasants shot for fun. MILLIONS of our native species shot,snared,trapped or poisoned to protect game birds, protected species almost wiped out - all this carnage in the name of 'sport'. Where is the outrage for this???


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## Knightofalbion

lennythecloud said:


> I do not agree with everything the RSPB does, by any stretch. However they been noticeably under attack recently by forces connected to the game shooting lobby (if you're looking for a killing spree btw - 50 million pheasants shot for fun......)and I don't think it's any coincidence that it's come at a time when the RSPB has become slightly more vocal about the conservation issues associated with that particular industry.


Whilst I can't and don't condone the culling mentioned in your first paragraph, I couldn't agree more with your second paragraph.

Left to her own devices Nature will find her own mark.

The blood sports lobby are not conservationists. Their business is just that a business - killing for 'fun' and profit.

Their primary concern is that native predators will predate birds before their clientele have the chance to kill them for 'sport' and they make a healthy financial reward out of it!

And as for the old mouldering chesnut of how professional shooting estates 'preserve' the Highland moors. Those moors were there for thousands and thousands and thousands of years before man ever showed up. And they'd still be there for aeons if man wasn't there.


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## Tails and Trails

> Tails and Trails: Seems a common thing these days
> The big charities like all other institutions becoming tools off the establishment, more interested in their own bureaucracy and position. Squandering goodwill of the citizens whom fund them.





> Nouroshka: The hunt/shoot/farming lobby represented by the C*ntryside Alliance, CLA,NFU & pro bloodsport MP's launched a smear campaign against the RSPCA for prosecuting the heythrop hunt (camerons fave hunt) And for campaigning against the badger cull & live exports etc. This attack on the RSPB by the hunt/shoot lobby is because they have dared to voice their outrage at the extermination of our hen harriers.* So just how are these two charites 'tools of the establishment? *The wealthy and the powerful (the establishment!)are trying to crush them so they carry on with their wildlife crime and animal cruelty unimpeded.


The answer to your question was already in my post you quoted, before you asked the question


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## noushka05

Tails and Trails said:


> The answer to your question was already in my post you quoted, before you asked the question


Well without them the 'other' establishment would have free reign to brutalise & decimate our wildlife.


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## Tails and Trails

noushka05 said:


> Well without them the 'other' establishment would have free reign to brutalise & decimate our wildlife.


of course.
however, doesnt relate to my point

edited to add: or maybe it does?
for if they hadnt taken up the contemporary reigns of corruption, cynicism, cronyism, and privilege typical of all disconnected institutions these days, in this task they would now be a whole lot more successful, for they would not have the general public turn on them for the same reasons they have now turned on all institutions

the fact is, scandals such as the ones rona highlights - and the RSPCA is full of them, they also hound and harass other rescues and members of the public, and their people skills when dealing with customers are appalling; I and my clients have several direct awful experiences, you also hear about them on here all the time - then their funding would now not be drying up. Cant do their job without support of the public or charitable donations, can they?


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## rona

Tails and Trails said:


> of course.
> however, doesnt relate to my point
> 
> edited to add: or maybe it does?
> for if they hadnt taken up the contemporary reigns of corruption, cynicism, cronyism, and privilege typical of all disconnected institutions these days, in this task they would now be a whole lot more successful, for they would not have the general public turn on them for the same reasons they have now turned on all institutions
> 
> the fact is, scandals such as the ones rona highlights - and the RSPCA is full of them, they also hound and harass other rescues and members of the public, and their people skills when dealing with customers are appalling; I and my clients have several direct awful experiences, you also hear about them on here all the time - then their funding would now not be drying up. Cant do their job without support of the public or charitable donations, can they?


I quite like the way the wildlife trusts have they own areas and those areas have individual accounts. At least there is then a chance that the people involved in the decisions have an interest and knowledge in the area


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## Jonescat

rona said:


> I quite like the way the wildlife trusts have they own areas and those areas have individual accounts. At least there is then a chance that the people involved in the decisions have an interest and knowledge in the area


I agree with this - I know nothing of importance in this respect about Cumbria for example, it is just a lovely place to me full of things to discover, but I do know what effect exactly what effect a flood in the next village will have on my favourite water vole field, or whether there are more foxes than last year.


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## noushka05

Tails and Trails said:


> of course.
> however, doesnt relate to my point
> 
> edited to add: or maybe it does?
> for if they hadnt taken up the contemporary reigns of corruption, cynicism, cronyism, and privilege typical of all disconnected institutions these days, in this task they would now be a whole lot more successful, for they would not have the general public turn on them for the same reasons they have now turned on all institutions
> 
> the fact is, scandals such as the ones rona highlights - and the RSPCA is full of them, they also hound and harass other rescues and members of the public, and their people skills when dealing with customers are appalling; I and my clients have several direct awful experiences, you also hear about them on here all the time - then their funding would now not be drying up. Cant do their job without support of the public or charitable donations, can they?


And just what scandals has Rona highlighted exactly? All ive seen is a vindictive attack on a charity that dares to confront the shooting industry for its crimes against one of our rarest birds.

No they cant do their job without funding, which is the whole point of the bloodsport brigades predictable smear campaign.


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## rona

Jonescat said:


> I agree with this - I know nothing of importance in this respect about Cumbria for example, it is just a lovely place to me full of things to discover, but I do know what effect exactly what effect a flood in the next village will have on my favourite water vole field, or whether there are more foxes than last year.


I've really no idea how these so call conservation charities manage when they are restricted by some suits in offices 

It's must be very frustrating for the genuine guys on the ground 

I knew a couple of very dedicated people on the ground in the National trust who had to leave because of the internal politics and bureaucracy. They were so disillusioned

That's the trouble, it's a bit like politics, that used to to full of people with ideals too. Now both politics and a lot of the large charities are full of social climbers  

What really gets me about the RSPB though is the hypocrisy


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## noushka05

rona said:


> I've really no idea how these so call conservation charities manage when they are restricted by some suits in offices
> 
> It's must be very frustrating for the genuine guys on the ground
> 
> I knew a couple of very dedicated people on the ground in the National trust who had to leave because of the internal politics and bureaucracy. They were so disillusioned
> 
> That's the trouble, it's a bit like politics, that used to to full of people with ideals too. Now both politics and a lot of the large charities are full of social climbers
> 
> What really gets me about the RSPB though is the hypocrisy


What hypocrisy Rona?


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## Tails and Trails

noushka05 said:


> And just what scandals has Rona highlighted exactly? All ive seen is a vindictive attack on a charity that dares to confront the shooting industry for its crimes against one of our rarest birds.
> 
> No they cant do their job without funding, which is the whole point of the bloodsport brigades predictable smear campaign.


Well, if you ain't gonna read posts properly?
Next you'll be saying there is nothing wrong with RSPCA either.......ummmmm


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## noushka05

Tails and Trails said:


> Well, if you ain't gonna read posts properly?
> Next you'll be saying there is nothing wrong with RSPCA either.......ummmmm


Oh ive read the posts carefully & debunked them.

I have never said there is nothing wrong with the RSPCA - either. But im not foolish enough to believe wild animals & animals in general would be better off without them.


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## rona

Didn't know Windbyte, Songbird slaughter, Birdlife, Animal people, National Geographic and all those different news papers that I linked to were all pro hunt? 

I'm sure the majority of the links are not pro hunting :yesnod: :yesnod:

I even linked to the RSPB too.....................


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Didn't know Windbyte, Songbird slaughter, Birdlife, Animal people, National Geographic and all those different news papers that I linked to were all pro hunt?
> 
> I'm sure the majority of the links are not pro hunting :yesnod: :yesnod:
> 
> I even linked to the RSPB too.....................


I never said they were all pro hunting. You have cherrypicked data from various (some seriously dodgy)! sources to suggest the rspb are being hypocritical because they condemn the the shooting fraternity for their relentless persecution of raptors & their plan to 'control' pine marten.


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## noushka05

Really good article in the Birmingham post on the subject.

Clipping the RSPB's Wings.

In a topsy-turvy twist of logic a group of people involved in shooting birds have asked the Charities Commission to investigate the work of the RSPB, one of the worlds leading bird protection bodies. Led by Sir Ian Botham, who runs the Sawley Hall shoot in Yorkshire, the group claims that the RSPB does not apply enough of its substantial income to owning and managing nature reserves, as if this is the only thing that nature conservation organisations should do.

Botham and his friends are upset by the RSPBs campaign to have grouse moors licenced as a way of stopping the current losses of birds of prey, especially hen harriers, on and around these moors. They should though have looked at a bit of history before launching their vindictive and vitriolic attack. Nature conservation organisations have traditionally had a multi-faceted approach to their work, and none more so than the RSPB.

The organisation started in 1889 as a body campaigning against the use of egrets feathers in the fashion trade. Egrets and other birds, such as great-crested grebes, were nearly hunted to extinction to satisfy the demand. The RSPBs first education and public engagement activities came in 1902, and promotion and marketing through its magazine started in 1903. It did not acquire its first reserve until 1930, after 41 years of campaigning for birds.

So much for the narrow view that nature conservation is all about reserves. Owning them does nothing, for example, to protect wildlife from the effects of climate change. Lobbying for better laws and regulations on this and other issues might, and is a vital part of the whole business of conservation.

There is a double irony in this situation. First that people who kill birds for fun and profit are complaining about the work of an organisation which exists solely to promote the welfare of wild birds. Second the fact that their concern that not enough of the RSPBs money is going to conservation means that some of that money, together with peoples time and energy, now has to go to dealing with the complaint.

If you enjoy watching wild birds in your garden, local park or favourite bit of countryside which would you choose to be their advocate: the RSPB, or a retired cricketer who knows nothing about conservation?


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## rona

Born Free Blog » Blog Archive » Pinioning: As Free as a Bird?

Over the years, Born Free has heard many justifications from zoos in defence of pinioning: it's necessary to improve the welfare of the birds as it allows them to have access to larger, roofless enclosures; aviaries are much more costly to build than open air enclosures, and pinioning can be carried out at little to no expense to the zoo; pinioning allows the public to get close to birds; pinioning can be justified in the name of conservation, making sure rarer, breeding birds don't fly away and get separated; and so on. *These so-called justifications are, at best, flimsy and none outweigh the impact of this invasive surgery on the individual animals.*

What the RSPB think. 
House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Written Evidence
3.0 Mutilation

3.1 Section 1(4) prohibits the mutilation of any protected animal. Section 1(5) provides that the appropriate national authority may by Order exempt such activity in certain circumstances. It is common practice to pinion the wings of captive wildfowl to prevent their escape into the wild. Withdrawal of this practice could increase the likelihood of non-native species escaping and becoming established in the wild. We believe the national authorities should take account of conservation implications when deciding which activities may be permitted by Order.

The RSPB have used pinioning at times while demonising others for doing so


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## rona

Britain would be big enough for the hen harrier and the grouse if it weren't for politics - Telegraph

"From the way it talks, you would think it is the RSPB that is working flat out to save the noble hen harrier and everyone else is dragging their feet. In fact, it is the other way round. After years of discussion, the Government has now got the interested parties close to agreeing a six-point Hen Harrier Action Plan. One of the six points is the proposed "brood management" programme. Under this, if more than one pair of hen harriers breeds on a grouse-moor, the chicks of the second, third etc can be reared elsewhere and released in non-grouse areas, such as moors in the West Country. Gamekeepers then have an incentive to protect the birds from foxes because they know their moors won't be infested by breeding pairs. Everyone can be happy.

Everyone except the RSPB. Although it cannot say it straight out, it has a rooted ideological objection to managing numbers with the help of shooting interests. So it tries to conceals this fact by protesting its love of hen harriers in a (non-)Mass Rally for Nature. If the RSPB accepted brood management, the hen harrier rescue could go ahead in the New Year. If it won't, perhaps it is time for other organisations, more skilled in the care of these birds, to go ahead without it.

This Christmas, you might feel like saving a hen harrier. If so, don't buy your family a gift subscription to the RSPB."


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## noushka05

See you've been doing a bit more cherrypicking



rona said:


> Born Free Blog » Blog Archive » Pinioning: As Free as a Bird?
> 
> Over the years, Born Free has heard many justifications from zoos in defence of pinioning: its necessary to improve the welfare of the birds as it allows them to have access to larger, roofless enclosures; aviaries are much more costly to build than open air enclosures, and pinioning can be carried out at little to no expense to the zoo; pinioning allows the public to get close to birds; pinioning can be justified in the name of conservation, making sure rarer, breeding birds dont fly away and get separated; and so on. *These so-called justifications are, at best, flimsy and none outweigh the impact of this invasive surgery on the individual animals.*
> 
> What the RSPB think.
> House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Written Evidence
> 3.0 Mutilation
> 
> 3.1 Section 1(4) prohibits the mutilation of any protected animal. Section 1(5) provides that the appropriate national authority may by Order exempt such activity in certain circumstances. It is common practice to pinion the wings of captive wildfowl to prevent their escape into the wild. Withdrawal of this practice could increase the likelihood of non-native species escaping and becoming established in the wild. We believe the national authorities should take account of conservation implications when deciding which activities may be permitted by Order.
> 
> The RSPB have used pinioning at times while demonising others for doing so


The RSPB stance on pinioning seems pretty clear to me - look at your own link. They support it when there are possible conservation implications (the ruddy duck saga springs to mind) . Pinioning is not something I agree with mind - nor the extermination of the ruddy duck.



rona said:


> Britain would be big enough for the hen harrier and the grouse if it weren't for politics - Telegraph
> 
> "From the way it talks, you would think it is the RSPB that is working flat out to save the noble hen harrier and everyone else is dragging their feet. In fact, it is the other way round. After years of discussion, the Government has now got the interested parties close to agreeing a six-point Hen Harrier Action Plan. One of the six points is the proposed brood management programme. Under this, if more than one pair of hen harriers breeds on a grouse-moor, the chicks of the second, third etc can be reared elsewhere and released in non-grouse areas, such as moors in the West Country. Gamekeepers then have an incentive to protect the birds from foxes because they know their moors wont be infested by breeding pairs. Everyone can be happy.
> 
> Everyone except the RSPB. Although it cannot say it straight out, it has a rooted ideological objection to managing numbers with the help of shooting interests. So it tries to conceals this fact by protesting its love of hen harriers in a (non-)Mass Rally for Nature. If the RSPB accepted brood management, the hen harrier rescue could go ahead in the New Year. If it wont, perhaps it is time for other organisations, more skilled in the care of these birds, to go ahead without it.
> 
> This Christmas, you might feel like saving a hen harrier. If so, dont buy your family a gift subscription to the RSPB."


And we come full circle back to deflecting attention from the REAL hen harrier killers - the shooting set

Charles Moore is a grouse shooter, is pro badger cull and a climate change denier - is this the best you can do? another nit wit who enjoys killing defenceless animals for fun & doesn't even believe in science?. I'm beginning to see a pattern here; denying climate science appears to be a common denominator with bloodsport supporters:sosp: hmmm

We all know its not the RSPB killing hen harrier Rona. The shooting industry have been forced to own up & admit - its THEM. Do you think these lawless wildlife criminals should be negotiated with? If these despicable knuckle draggers STOP killing hen harrier they will return naturally!

Martin Harper; *There is little sign that the grouse moor industry is prepared to condemn, let alone end illegal killing. The industry has to prove that it can deliver the recovery of hen harriers BEFORE we can even consider brood management, which will only work if the illegal persecution has stopped. At present, even if chicks were taken from the wild, reared and released, we have little confidence that they would be allowed to fly free from harm.

Im sorry, but surely it is the responsibility of those who are breaking the law to change their behaviour? Why should it be the duty of everyone else to compromise with them, especially when the stakes are so high? We will have no part in such a scheme until there are signs that the hen harrier population is recovering WITHOUT the need for brood management. As I said in my previous email, this is a matter of trust.*_
_ Inner steel | Mark Avery

Mark Avery on Charles Moore article >

Charles Moore shoots grouse | Mark Avery
Its funny, isnt it, how many journalists who criticise the RSPB are shooters. And its funny how they somehow forget to mention the fact that they are shooters or involved in shooting when they write their criticisms of the RSPBs opposition to people associated with shooting breaking wildlife law.
Weve had the case of Magnus Linklater a few years ago (see here and here).

Then there was the William Langley piece in the Sunday Telegraph lumping in on the #weforgotthefacts campaign (fronted by three shooting folk).

Then yesterday there was Charles Moore who seems to have forgotten to tell his readers that he is a grouse shooter too, We were shooting grouse on the Duke of Northumberlands moor in the Lammermuirs.

Given that the RSPB is not against shooting (and nor am I), and isnt even asking for a ban on driven grouse shooting (thats me! I am, click here) I find it difficult to see why the shooting industry is so anti-RSPB. But it has been for so, so long that we all seem to have become accustomed to it.

I suppose it is just possible that continued attacks on the RSPB might get it to be even more timid but it is more likely to work in the other direction, as we have already seen this year.

Im not so confident about the Wildlife Trusts holding their nerve. They are less accustomed than the RSPB to being attacked, for they rarely say anything very controversial. I have warmed to the Wildlife Trusts over the last few years, and made some good friends amongst their staff, and am doing some work for them at the moment (completely unrelated to shooting, hen harriers or anything similar, by the way), but they are incredibly timid. The county trusts will undoubtedly be receiving lots of pressure not to speak out on wildlife crime. The way this usually works is along the lines of It would be so sad if it became more difficult to work with you and We have been disappointed to see you becoming a campaigning organisation  leave that to the RSPB. Well have to see how the Wildlife Trusts react to bullying of this sort.

It may be, or maybe it wasnt, that Simon Barnes lost his job at The Times because of the line he took on illegal raptor persecution. But the journalists to whom I have spoken are just about equally divided on whether the shooting industry might have been or could not have been involved in his departure.

Who next? Id be pretty sure that Chris Packham gets quite a lot of grief from the shooting industry and their representatives. What are the chances that the BBC has had plenty of letters from the good and not so great questioning Chriss right to speak his mind on wildlife issues: Malta, Hen Harrier persecution, the badger cull etc?

*First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win We will win!*

Just a thought, if there are so many law-abiding, moderate, wildlife-friendly grouse-shooters out there  why do we never hear them criticising attacks on wildlife charities? Why do we not hear from them criticising the excesses of their fellows in the grouse shooting industry? Who are they? Where are they? Maybe they dont really exist.


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## chillminx

rona said:


> Their reply
> The RSPB: News: RSPB detailed response to mis-representations
> 
> Love the bit about cats as they have killed many to "protect" birds
> 
> Odd how they can kill cats, hedgehogs, foxes and sell deer and wildfowl shooting
> 
> Akin to the RSPCA and National trust


 are you saying the RSPB has stated they kill cats to protect birds? Nothing about that in the article you link to.


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## rona

chillminx said:


> are you saying the RSPB has stated they kill cats to protect birds? Nothing about that in the article you link to.


Yes they poisoned cats. It was supposed to be feral cats but they killed 38% of the pets as well 

Now that the cats have gone they are waging war on the rats, once they are gone and it still hasn't made a significant difference. I wonder if they will start on the Mynus..........Oh just discovered they already are poisoning them.

Some of these creatures have been there for over 200 years. 
More likely the ruddy tourists that are stopping the birds breeding


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## noushka05

chillminx said:


> are you saying the RSPB has stated they kill cats to protect birds? Nothing about that in the article you link to.


It was to save a species found no where else CM Ascension frigatebird - the return continues - Saving Species - Our work - The RSPB Community

The RSPB does sometimes use predator control, but this tends to be as a last resort when things like small remnant populations of ground nesting birds are under threat.

The shooting industry on the other hand indiscriminately kill millions of animals every year to protect millions of gamebirds to be shot for fun.

And Cats often fall victim to their snares. There is a big campaign to get these barbaric devices banned. Here are some of the case studies by LACS of animals found caught in snares. Snaring Case Studies - League Against Cruel Sports Cats include; Bubbles, Snuggles, Oscar, Frank, Willow, Tiggy, Alfie & the owners of Marmalade have recorded a video about the death of their beloved cat found dead hanging from a snare attached to a barbed wire fence.

Snarewatch - Cat injured in Buckinghamshire

I hope people can see the difference between protecting rare native species from introduced competitors and the mass indiscriminate slaughter of millions of animals to protect introduced creatures bred to be blown out of the sky with a shotgun for fun.



rona said:


> Yes they poisoned cats. It was supposed to be feral cats but they killed 38% of the pets as well
> 
> Now that the cats have gone they are waging war on the rats, once they are gone and it still hasn't made a significant difference. I wonder if they will start on the Mynus..........Oh just discovered they already are poisoning them.
> 
> Some of these creatures have been there for over 200 years.
> More likely the ruddy tourists that are stopping the birds breeding


Talk about confirmation bias  lol

* In 2001 the Seabird Restoration Project commenced. The primary mammal predator  feral cats, was successfully eradicated (spayed/ neutered domestic cats are still resident on the island) and efforts are on-going to control the rats. Continuous monitoring of the coast has shown that seabirds are returning to nest on the mainland and nest numbers are increasing annually. The first to return to the Letterbox Peninsula was the masked booby and their numbers on the mainland continue to increase.

By 2011, six out of the eleven species of seabird were nesting on the mainland once again and in 2012 the first two pairs of endemic frigatebirds were observed nesting on the mainland after 180 year absence  a landmark in Ascensions conservation efforts! Unfortunately only one of the nests was successful, with the chick fledging 7 months after hatching. At the end of 2013, the discovery of 12 new nests on the mainland truly marked the return of the frigatebirds.
*

Birds | Ascension Island

I think we all know who the real enemies of the natural world are Rona - its certainly not the RSPB.

.


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## rona

2014 - 062 Sir Ian Botham's exposÃ©e of RSPB | The Euro Probe

WWF's Earth Book - Be part of something big?


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## noushka05

rona said:


> 2014  062 Sir Ian Bothams exposÃ©e of RSPB | The Euro Probe
> 
> WWF's Earth Book - Be part of something big?


Oh so we're back to grouse shooter beefy with his nasty propaganda & unhinged Ava. Oh dear :/

So despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary you choose to believe this garbage??  Wow....

_ Why re-release and protect every raptor hawk. Predator - !
But NEVER  Any Protection for Songbirds?

Add untold millions it receives in donations, legacies (etc) annually. Only adding to songbirds plight and burden with the RSPB love protection of  Raptors hawks along with ill thought out re-releases of raptors all over Britain. When are we going to wake up!

RSPB are they worth joining to save songbirds do they listen to members viewpoint? As ex-members NO  We were wrong to even question them!
Obviously they dont want to upset their fluffy pretty brigade to cull aggressive predators and scavengers.
So members do let them know your thoughts on predation. Killing by predators when no one keeps their explosive numbers down.

View  Garden Bird tweets: RSPB Admits No Research Predation!  Conservationists taboo Colossal Killing of Garden Birds!

Eight years ago he was so proudly re-releasing red kites in Aylesbury which are now all over the place also at Hampstead and Hackney with an 6′ wing span!
Surprise tell us. What Do they ALL  EAT? Yes  Its Sparrows and our Songbirds!!

Saying that hawks are a mans thing. Men dont find songbirds sexy Like Hawks
Give us strength. Songbirds future we all agree is bleak

Stop wildlife centres releasing back forever more healthy predators scavengers. This against their more dead delicate songbirds.
Because of our consequence folly were protecting only the able! What about species unable to adapt cope or compete. Because of our choice  To become EXTINCT

Bill Oddy loves magpies also say Nature Watch is filmed at private estates. Not from our streets, back gardens, parks and squares. Not having any songbirds left there with our and umpteen others knowledge after magpies sparrowhawks grey-squirrels cats killed all past songbirds and sparrows

There are so many predators scavengers that all prey on killing our resident songbirds. As ex-members of the RSPB they cared more about money and protection of raptors (hawks) than what their members thought.. Deer are victim of their own success establishing high population levels which then have to be managed. This supported by several bird and wood organisations. This benefits woodland birds.

Exactly this same common sense must apply to sparrowhawk and over abundant predators then that are killing off our sparrows and songbirds!

_

I have rarely seen so many downright lies in one article - that woman is utterly despicable.

I cant believe anyone on here would use this nasty demonization of raptors to back up their opinion. You really don't like raptors do you Rona:nonod:

.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Rona, you should know better than to post facts!  

I used to work for the National Trust, and before it took any stance many of the managers were pro hunting, and allowed hunts across their land, so it's hardly been infiltrated, perhaps some people have found a voice. 

On the way up to walking the girls last night, I saw a buzzard taking off from close range, and a pair of kestrels flying together, right next to a grouse moor, where I regularly see a variety of wildlife including various raptors and rare species like lapwings, curlews, snipe and woodcock. 

I've also got a brace of pheasants in my fridge a friend is picking up for her and her husband to have for dinner, and she's taking home a partridge (one of a brace pictured on another thread in the feather), and a wood pigeon, all as natural as possible.


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## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Rona, you should know better than to post facts!
> 
> I used to work for the National Trust, and before it took any stance many of the managers were pro hunting, and allowed hunts across their land, so it's hardly been infiltrated, perhaps some people have found a voice.
> 
> On the way up to walking the girls last night, I saw a buzzard taking off from close range, and a pair of kestrels flying together, right next to a grouse moor, where I regularly see a variety of wildlife including various raptors and rare species like lapwings, curlews, snipe and woodcock.
> 
> I've also got a brace of pheasants in my fridge a friend is picking up for her and her husband to have for dinner, and she's taking home a partridge (one of a brace pictured on another thread in the feather), and a wood pigeon, all as natural as possible.


One problem with Rona's 'facts' - ive already debunked em:hand:

As you know I prefer hard evidence to anecdotes & innuendo thanks SL. Though I don't doubt you see plenty of waders. Seen any hen harriers lately?

(Theres nothing natural about intensively managed pheasant & red grouse - as well you know)


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## lennythecloud

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've also got a brace of pheasants in my fridge a friend is picking up for her and her husband to have for dinner, and she's taking home a partridge (one of a brace pictured on another thread in the feather), and a wood pigeon, all as natural as possible.


Conveniently omitting the fact that most pheasants are farmed:

"the vast majority will come from around 300 specialist game farms in the UK, many of which hold back a closed flock of breeding birds and sell either day-old chicks or fully reared poults"

Not only that they are, by the industries own admission, farmed purely for the fun of shooting them

"'This is an industry aimed at producing a sporting target, not a piece of meat.'"

Game bird rearing spreads its wings - Farmers Weekly

What's natural about that? You may as well be releasing and shooting chickens....

Edited to add that I'm certain that you have already written to your MP asking them to sign early day motion 566 sleeping lion, but just in case you haven't seen it:

"That this House notes with concern that every year some 50 million pheasants and partridges are mass-produced to be shot for so-called sport, and that a large number of the breeding birds are confined for the whole of their productive lives in crowded metal battery units, known in industry circles as raised laying cages; further notes that these units cause the birds to suffer high levels of injury and premature death, despite them now being enriched; observes that many of the birds are fitted with restrictive face masks that attempt to limit the damage resulting from birds attacking one another because of the stresses caused by these unnatural, confined and unpleasant conditions; further observes that the law and tax regime recognise the game bird industry as primarily a sport rather than a means of food production; agrees with shooting industry spokespeople who have said in the past that the cages not only represent a major welfare problem but are harmful to the reputation of shooting; further notes that a recent YouGov poll found that 70 per cent of respondents oppose the use of cages; believes that there is no justification for causing unnecessary suffering to animals; further observes that the shooting industry can afford to pay for decent conditions for these birds and believes that it has a responsibility to do so; and calls on the Government to introduce a ban on raised laying cages for breeding pheasants and partridges."

Early day motion 566 - PHEASANTS AND PARTRIDGES REARED TO BE SHOT - UK Parliament


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## rona

Don't really know why this has been turned into a hunt verses anti thread,

It's about a charity that is taking money under false pretenses while killing any creature that gets in the way of their chosen species while telling others that they can't do the same. 

I have no more reason to support the shooting industry than I do the conservation industry. I've never shot a gun, never rode to hounds, never killed anything that wasn't already sick or injured and I absolutely love the countryside and those creatures that live there.
What I don't like is this big business, one of the biggest in the world that comes under the guise of conservation 

It isn't really conservation, it's exploitive tourism


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Don't really know why this has been turned into a hunt verses anti thread,
> 
> It's about a charity that is taking money under false pretenses while killing any creature that gets in the way of their chosen species while telling others that they can't do the same.
> 
> I have no more reason to support the shooting industry than I do the conservation industry. I've never shot a gun, never rode to hounds, never killed anything that wasn't already sick or injured and I absolutely love the countryside and those creatures that live there.
> What I don't like is this big business, one of the biggest in the world that comes under the guise of conservation
> 
> It isn't really conservation, it's exploitive tourism


What are you on about 'their chosen species?

Perhaps its turned into a anti v hunt thread because you were using pro hunt propaganda to smear the RSPB:nono: All you have done is cherrypick bits of information to fit your confirmation bias Rona. Infact on practically every thread ive done about wildlife crime within the bloodsports lobby you have done the same. Never once have I seen you outright condemned them only go off on your usual deflection tactics - even stooping so low as to demonise other species, species which are suffering relentless persecution at the hands of these monsters you defend. I think that is awful. You don't need to have killed anything to be pro hunting. Anyway I thought you use to enjoy beating?

It isn't tourism responsible for the eradication of hen harrier & other raptor species on grouse moors OR the RSPB! as you would like to have us believe. Its the industry you say you have no more reason to support. So why do you keep supporting them then?? If you are being sincere why dont you support the campaign to ban driven grouse shooting Rona?

.


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## rona

You can only look at the RSPB stars if you pay 

Selling our wildlife for a fistful of coins.

It's not theirs to sell


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## noushka05

rona said:


> You can only look at the RSPB stars if you pay
> 
> Selling our wildlife for a fistful of coins.
> 
> It's not theirs to sell


What? Selling wildlife?? You mean charging admission on their reserves?

And the fact that this bothers you more than the massive illegal slaughter of protected species by the shooting lobby crooks, speaks volumes Rona.

.


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## rona

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/localvalueseabirds_tcm9-258550.pdf

https://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/watchedlikeneverbefore_tcm9-133081.pdf

They even put a value on them

You can watch a Sea Eagle for £8


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## rona

And again......the hypocrisy

RSPB part time worker sacked over Flow Country protest stance « Raptor Politics


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## rona

Job vacancies, only 4 for on the land and some of them are for volunteers

The RSPB: Job vacancies

Still plenty of well paid jobs in a nice comfy office


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## noushka05

So you're still trawling the internet looking for any little reason to smear the RSPB? Yet you have nothing negative to say about the organisations that represent wildlife criminals.

You support the shoot lobbies brood management proposal conveniently ignoring the FACT that their are practically NO hen harrier broods to manage because the shoots wont stop persecuting them!. Against the best science again you trust the GWCT plans to 'remove' endangered pine marten - the organisation that represents the set that almost wiped out the species in the first place!

How can you expect anyone to believe your not biased in favour of the bloodsports fraternity Rona lol

You are angry the RSPB charge £8 to see magnificent sea eagles?? Well I am devastated the shoot lobby KILL them!

East Scotland sea eagle chick ?disappears? on grouse moor | Raptor Persecution Scotland


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## rona

http://www.honorarytreasurers.org.uk/docs/Executive_Pay_Report.pdf

Could this be why so much time and effort is aimed at fund raising..........the more it's worth the bigger the slice for those top execs


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## noushka05

rona said:


> http://www.honorarytreasurers.org.uk/docs/Executive_Pay_Report.pdf
> 
> Could this be why so much time and effort is aimed at fund raising..........the more it's worth the bigger the slice for those top execs


Let me refer you back to this >>>>>

Who really ?forgot the birds?? RSPB and GWCT accounts compared after Botham beamer | Ollie's Birdwatching Blog

Who really forget the birds????


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## rona

There's loads more out there for people to find but I think I've given enough links and facts from very diverse sources.

I'll leave it for people to make up there own minds 

I think you know my opinion


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## noushka05

rona said:


> There's loads more out there for people to find but I think I've given enough links and facts from very diverse sources.
> 
> I'll leave it for people to make up there own minds
> 
> I think you know my opinion


Diverse sources eg: Telegraph, Daily fail, windbytes, songbird slaughter & so on - all of them devoid of any scientific references lol. If people have an open mind and don't have an agenda they'll see those articles for what they are - pure sophistry.

The hunt/shoot sets agenda is SO transparent - discredit the charities that challenge them until they lose donations and are ineffective. Then they can hunt/shoot whatever they want with absolute impunity and no fear of recourse They disgust me.

People who run businesses that profit from people shooting animals for 'sport' - and those that support them - don't give a to$$ about the countryside.

Of course I know your opinion, it mirrors the shooting lobbies exactly lol - I need look no further than their slant.

.


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## rona




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## noushka05

rona said:


>


lol Clown:001_tt2:


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## rona

Wanna support these killers?

http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/cf...ogfiles/00-00-03-96-75/managing-predation.png


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Wanna support these killers?
> 
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/cf...ogfiles/00-00-03-96-75/managing-predation.png


So let me get this straight. You don't think people should support the RSPB because they kill a few hundred animals for conservation reasons?. Yet you constantly defend & support an industry that every year kills wild animals on an industrial scale solely to protect another creature to be blasted out of the sky for fun  How odd.

More animals were killed on the Windsor estate than all those RSPB reserves put together. In 2013 (not even including January) the Windsor estate slaughtered 7129 wild animals.
Animal Aid: Massacre at the Windsor Estate: 7,000 wild animals killed in one year


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## treaclethebullterrier

Does anyone else find that their statistics don't make sense/add up?


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## rona

treaclethebullterrier said:


> Does anyone else find that their statistics don't make sense/add up?


Which particular statistics?

Nothing really adds up with the RSPB


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## kaz_f

rona said:


> I quite like the way the wildlife trusts have they own areas and those areas have individual accounts. At least there is then a chance that the people involved in the decisions have an interest and knowledge in the area


I like this about the Wildlife Trust too, I like the fact that they are more transparent and have AGM's that members can attend and can see minutes. I also feel they do 'proper' conservation work for specific species and habitats on a local level. And they have actual practical outdoor volunteering that people can get involved in. With a lot of the larger big name charities unless you are prepared to be a fundraiser there is virtually no way of getting involved. Sorry I have gone a bit off-piste here. Sadly I do think that a lot of the larger organisations do not spend members money in the best way possible.


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## rona

kaz_f said:


> I like this about the Wildlife Trust too, I like the fact that they are more transparent and have AGM's that members can attend and can see minutes. I also feel they do 'proper' conservation work for specific species and habitats on a local level. And they have actual practical outdoor volunteering that people can get involved in. With a lot of the larger big name charities unless you are prepared to be a fundraiser there is virtually no way of getting involved. Sorry I have gone a bit off-piste here. Sadly I do think that a lot of the larger organisations do not spend members money in the best way possible.


It does of course mean that each area can be very different depending on who's incharge. I'm on the cusp of two very different trusts. If all I knew was one of these I would never support them because they seem intent only on raising funds and getting footfall, whereas the other is more about protection of habitat and species


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