# Halti not working out



## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

So I bought ruby a dogmatic halti size 3L as she's got a big muzzle and head.
Fits perfectly does not ride up into eyes.
She hates it, we've had for a few weeks now so it's not like its a new thing yet she tries to rub it off banging into my knee for most of the walk or she will try to use her paws to pull at it.
Needless to say ruby and I are not enjoying walks, I have a dodgy knee as it is due to dislocating it twice so her rubbing/banging her head into my knee isn't helping.

I have ordered a choke chain collar, this is how we lead trained blade to walk to heel when he was a pup which paid off and as an adult we on,y used a rope lead and could walk him using one finger hooked round the handle! 

So do you think a choke chain would be best suited for ruby?
At the minute I've stopped with the halti and we are just on a normal collar to a clip on lead. 
Half choke collar doesn't work as she had one when we got her.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

blade100 said:


> So I bought ruby a dogmatic halti size 3L as she's got a big muzzle and head.
> Fits perfectly does not ride up into eyes.
> She hates it, we've had for a few weeks now so it's not like its a new thing yet she tries to rub it off banging into my knee for most of the walk or she will try to use her paws to pull at it.
> Needless to say ruby and I are not enjoying walks, I have a dodgy knee as it is due to dislocating it twice so her rubbing/banging her head into my knee isn't helping.
> ...


Did you introduce the headcollar gradually or did you just stick it on and hope for the best?

Equipment does not train dogs not to pull, training does.

How and why do you think a choke chain works?

I notice you have not suggested a harness..............


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

A harness doesn't stop a dog from pulling, at the kennels boarders come in with harnesses and they still pull like a train which has put me off them.

Yes it was introduced slowly.
It went on her whilst in the house for a few mins, building up on how long then we clipped a lead to it still in the house.

A choke chain worked for blade, so I assumed it could work for ruby.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Well it appears you have made up your mind and are going to use a choke chain despite that many people train their dogs perfectly well to loose lead walk on a flat collar a harnes or a headcollar.

It would not be the method of choice for my dogs, I prefer not to choke my dogs or risk damaging their larynx.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Oh well I only thought about the choke collar because this is how we trained blade. I must say it was only for a few weeks and that was all. It was a gentle pull not a hard yank. 
I have been trying to walk to heel on her normal collar and lead but she still pulls in front. 
She does however walk nicely for my husband.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

blade100 said:


> A harness doesn't stop a dog from pulling, at the kennels boarders come in with harnesses and they still pull like a train which has put me off them.
> 
> Yes it was introduced slowly.
> It went on her whilst in the house for a few mins, building up on how long then we clipped a lead to it still in the house.
> ...


Mine are quite large dogs and don't pull in harnesses.apart from when running when they are allowed to. It's training, not kit.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Ivd just read up on the choke chains, I won't be using them! Good job it only cost me £3.59.


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

There is more than one type of harness. You are quite correct that most standard harnesses won't help with pulling. However, there are some that are designed especially for this, and generally they attach to the lead at the front of the dog rather than on top. A good no pull harness might well be worth a try, but as always, equipment needs to be combined with consistent training in order to be really effective.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Halti also do a harness with an attachment ring on the front/chest. If you use this with a double ended lead, you can have two control points on the harness. Might help?

If you prefer a headcollar, then depending on how much your dog pulls, I would suggest possibly a Gencon All-In-One. It's literally just two loops of material, one goes round the neck (high) and the other around the muzzle. WARNING: the Gencon *does* tighten so I would not use it if your dog is pulling a lot or lungeing regularly.

However if your dog walks nicely most of the time but you still need a bit of extra control occasionally, then the Gencon is worth trying IMHO.

There is also the Mekuti harness which is pretty good.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

To be honest, I'd probably rub my head on your knee if you stuck something that put pressure on my face as well.

Not at the OP but a general question, why do people not wonder how these things work when they buy them? They tighten around the face, which equals uncomfortable, in the vague hope that the manufacturers have magically produced a cure all problem ie dog feels pressure, stops pulling because it dislikes pressure around the face. Instead what happens, is dog feels pressure, and does everything it can to get pressure off face.

I've put this link up before, it's a blog to someone who is a dog behaviourist/trainer amongst other things, and recommends a couple of headcollars and harnesses that do not cause discomfort to the dog.

Dog Blog: Head-collars


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I clicker train dogs to accept head collars (and muzzles). It's not just a case of putting it on for short periods until they 'get used to it'. it's about building positive emotions when they are wearing it.

So I click and feed with it hanging on my wrist, then slowly move it up until the dog is putting his head through it to reach my hand with the treat. I wouldn't put it on and do it up until the dog will seek it out to put his head through it (ie I would have someone else hold it, and the dog has to run to it to put his head in to get the click.

Once it's on, well, that's when the party starts and we have a great game that the dog likes! The the head collar comes off, and the party's over. Booooooooring.... And so on.

Dog trainers have been prosecuted in this country for cruelty after causing damage to dogs with choke chains, so it's not something I could ever advise on.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Nothing in life is risk free

All equipment has pros and cons

As in anything it is up to us as owners to conduct a cost benefit analysis, ie do the pros outweigh the cons or vice versa.

Suzanne Clothier has "a point of view" just as many other people have theirs.

Not all equipment suits all dogs.

For me a choke chain has lots of cons and no pros. So it is a no brainer.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I saw a lovely dog walking in a busy town yesterday. It didn't seem to be behaving in a normal way - very still head stance and not showing much interest in it's surroundings. Then I noticed the prong collar.

Of course, I know absolutely nothing about the dog and the owner and what problems they may have encountered, but I wonder whether it is possible to use a prong collar WITHOUT inflicting pain?


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Well the dogmatic got a few good likes on my thread a few weeks back which is why I went ahead and bought it.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/351931-haltis-etc.html

It does actually tighten under the dogs jaw! Clamping the mouth shut.

I've also found a very good trainer which I'm going to get to come out as he does my area too.
And the dogmatic is going!
And when the choke chain arrives in the post its going in the bin 

This is the trainer what do you guys think?
http://www.dog-whisperer.me.uk/


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

blade100 said:


> So I bought ruby a dogmatic halti size 3L as she's got a big muzzle and head.
> Fits perfectly does not ride up into eyes.
> She hates it, we've had for a few weeks now so it's not like its a new thing yet she tries to rub it off banging into my knee for most of the walk or she will try to use her paws to pull at it.
> Needless to say ruby and I are not enjoying walks, I have a dodgy knee as it is due to dislocating it twice so her rubbing/banging her head into my knee isn't helping.
> ...


nothing unusual here, many dogs react this way to head collars. thats why you are supposed to go thru a gradual introduction conditioning stage first


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

As I said I did put it on her for a few mins in the house gradually building up the length of time it being on.
Then after a break it went back on we did this for a few hours then attacked a lead around the house.

To he fare there is nothing on the dogmatic that I've found that gives out instructions on how to go about introducing it on the dog slowly.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

blade100 said:


> As I said I did put it on her for a few mins in the house gradually building up the length of time it being on.
> Then after a break it went back on we did this for a few hours then attacked a lead around the house.
> 
> To he fare there is nothing on the dogmatic that I've found that gives out instructions on how to go about introducing it on the dog slowly.


sorry didnt see that post.

but if that was just in one day, might have still been a bit rushed?

im not sure any of the head collars give this instruction (sadly)?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

blade100 said:


> Well the dogmatic got a few good likes on my thread a few weeks back which is why I went ahead and bought it.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/351931-haltis-etc.html
> 
> It does actually tighten under the dogs jaw! Clamping the mouth shut.
> ...


Never heard of him.

He may be good but I am afraid as soon as someone imbues themselves with "special gifts" and "Titles" such as "dog whisperer" "dog listener" "the dogfather" I am turned right off.

All the outstanding, excellent and good trainers I know (and I know one or two) do not feel the need for such "claims"

Good luck.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Having used the Dogmatic for a long time, I'm honestly not sure how it 'tightens' under the chin  The bit under the chin is simply for attaching the lead to, the Dogmatic is 'fixed action' - meaning it specifically does *not* tighten. Is it at all possible that the headcollar was a size too small? Can easily happen


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

blade100 said:


> Well the dogmatic got a few good likes on my thread a few weeks back which is why I went ahead and bought it.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/351931-haltis-etc.html
> 
> It does actually tighten under the dogs jaw! Clamping the mouth shut.
> ...


He doesn't use treats, but doesn't say what rewards he does use, other than natural instincts. Premack maybe? I think from the website that is unlikely.

Do dog trainers really need to use names like whisperer or listener?

Stuff about packs -although this is the correct collective noun for a group of dogs it's not a training method, wolves...

I would personally not choose this dog trainer.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

BoredomBusters said:


> He doesn't use treats, but doesn't say what rewards he does use, other than natural instincts. Premack maybe? I think from the website that is unlikely.
> 
> Do dog trainers really need to use names like whisperer or listener?
> 
> ...


the cesar milan school of always refers to itself as 'natural instincts'

jan fennell uses similar terms too

they regard themselves as being ethologists


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> the cesar milan school of always refers to itself as 'natural instincts'
> 
> jan fennell uses similar terms too
> 
> they regard themselves as being ethologists


Ah...

Why don't they know that the correct word for 'dog psychology' is cynology?


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Having used the Dogmatic for a long time, I'm honestly not sure how it 'tightens' under the chin  The bit under the chin is simply for attaching the lead to, the Dogmatic is 'fixed action' - meaning it specifically does *not* tighten. Is it at all possible that the headcollar was a size too small? Can easily happen


You pull down on the loop underneath whilst keeping one finger under the chin of the dog and then u will see!

Taken from the dogmatic site

An extra bonus is that, in an emergency, the Dogmatic can be used to close your dogs mouth and turn its head to enable you to keep it safe but the loop immediately releases again, allowing your dog to once again pant, drink, carry a toy, eat a treat...


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

I got the 3L for a german shepherd bitch!
She has a big head and so the size suggested on the dogmatic site says for a bitch I'd need the size 3. So the 3L was plenty big enough.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

I messaged the trainer and this is what he said when I asked what he ment by natural instincts instead of treat rewards.

"Pack herd guard challenge play feed hunt track etc" ????


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

blade100 said:


> You pull down on the loop underneath whilst keeping one finger under the chin of the dog and then u will see!
> 
> Taken from the dogmatic site
> 
> An extra bonus is that, in an emergency, the Dogmatic can be used to close your dogs mouth and turn its head to enable you to keep it safe but the loop immediately releases again, allowing your dog to once again pant, drink, carry a toy, eat a treat...


Yes but my point is you don't *have* to do that - the Dogmatic only tightens IF you make it do that.

I really wonder whether you need a bigger size if it was not comfy for your dog - I have found that with this headcollar more than others, the sizing must be spot on for it to be effective and comfy


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Trust me it was the biggest one for her the 3L but it had to be on the tightest fastening otherwise it would be been too loose round the back of her neck.
She needed the 3L as advised by the people on the dogmatic site because the size 3 would be been too tight around her large muzzle and thick neck.

No 4 would've been ridiculously big.

As regards the mouth closing when she pulled on the halti it did close her mouth.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

This is her with it on


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

blade100 said:


> Well the dogmatic got a few good likes on my thread a few weeks back which is why I went ahead and bought it.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/351931-haltis-etc.html
> 
> It does actually tighten under the dogs jaw! Clamping the mouth shut.
> ...


I've never experienced the Dogmatic tightening


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I've been tempted to try the dogmatic to distinguish a difference between the running harness and walking nice beside me.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

blade100 said:


> I messaged the trainer and this is what he said when I asked what he ment by natural instincts instead of treat rewards.
> 
> "Pack herd guard challenge play feed hunt track etc" ????


Was that the exact response the trainer sent?

If yes, be careful - I personally would have wanted a far clearer answer than that, it doesn't make any sense to me at all  Maybe I'm simply being dense?


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Yes I copied and pasted it from the message. 
I too am confused as to what it means as he hasn't given any full details or description as to what he means.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

My advice would be find another trainer.

inlinedogtraining.co.uk


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2014)

Finally had a moment to check out the trainers link - the dog whisperer guy? 
Had a good chuckle at several points, but this one under interesting dog facts (love that these are facts) really cracked me up:


> Dogs often react differently to human males and females.
> Men tend to use a more commanding tone and women may try to tempt a dog with child talk and treats.
> Your voice is your biggest asset when it comes to training your dog.
> A dog will know the difference between firmness, anxiety, fear or anger


Your voice is your biggest asset when it comes to training your dog??? Hrm. I wonder if this genius knows that dogs on a whole respond far more reliably to body language and physical cues than to voice cues?

Not even going to get in to the sexism of the men vs. women thing 

Five years ago I had surgery on my throat that left me with no voice and then a very high, squeaky voice for months afterwards. Shockingly I was still able to cue my dogs and have them respond to me. Hell I can whisper cues to them and they respond.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Finally had a moment to check out the trainers link - the dog whisperer guy?
> Had a good chuckle at several points, but this one under interesting dog facts (love that these are facts) really cracked me up:
> 
> Your voice is your biggest asset when it comes to training your dog??? Hrm. I wonder if this genius knows that dogs on a whole respond far more reliably to body language and physical cues than to voice cues?
> ...


Some cues Thai will respond to a hand signal without a verbal back up cue, I wonder how this trainer would respond to that :lol:


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