# Alsatian Breed Campaign



## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

The Alsatian Breed Campaign - Launches Wednesday 16th January 2013

After a year of preparation a number of German Shepherd owners and breeders have combined to launch a campaign to recognise the Alsatian as a separate breed within the UK.

For many years the German Shepherd breed has been divided over which 'type' of dog is the correct one. For simplicity, the 'Germanic' or 'SV' dog is characterised by having an outline in which the rear part of the back is curved, whereas the 'English' type has a back which is straight from withers to croup.

Both sides argue that their type is correct under the Kennel Club standard but this is an obvious impossibility. A group of owners of 'English' type dogs have, therefore, decided that there is sufficient support to try and divide the breed by creating a new breed: The Alsatian. The campaign, launched on the 16th January, takes the view that rather than trying to continue with an unworkable situation within the breed it would be better to separate the two factions.

Their view is that the situation is now untenable and they cite, as an example, the dearth of judges prepared to give awards to dogs that are of a type that they do not personally like, rather than judging to a common-sense reading of the breed standard. This is exemplified by the withdrawal of the Crufts 2013 GSD judge, Mr W Petrie. As a result of his withdrawal and replacement many entries were withdrawn and many new ones made as it is supposed that his replacement judge, Mr K Hoyland, will favour the opposite type.

Indeed, with the alarmingly low number of CCs available for GSDs, given the popularity of the breed as a whole, it is becoming difficult to see any way in which the traditional, straight backed dogs will continue to gain show awards.

They also cite the continuing question of health checks with a number of GSD Breed clubs still opposed to the Kennel Club's view about poor conformation in many dogs, which was also emphasised in the Bateson Report.

The organisers believe they have a lot of support from knowledgeable owners and breeders from outside the German Shepherd fraternity, exemplified by the number of such people who approach them at shows and remark on how pleased they are to see 'proper' German Shepherds.

A website, TheAlsatian, has been created to give full details of the campaign and for people to register their support. There is also a Facebook page and group - Alsatian Breed Campaign and a Twitter feed @AlsatianBreed


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Just my opinion but the banana backed GSD's appear to suffer & look very wrong


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

No the breed should not be split. 
What should happen is that Showing practices should be revised and Show Judges barred if they persist in awarding places to unfit dogs. 
That`ll do it.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> No the breed should not be split.
> What should happen is that Showing practices should be revised and Show Judges barred if they persist in awarding places to unfit dogs.
> That`ll do it.


Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised. And, in their wisdom the KC's response is that they are working on creating more judges for both types. How they can square that with one standard is completely beyond me.

Creating a new breed is the only way out of a 50 year old mess. BTW - this isn't just happening in the UK. It's already underway in Germany.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

It's a nice idea but where do all the other types fit in?
I don't see how it can work.

GSDs would encompass west german showline, west german workline, Czech and DDR workline? Meanwhile alsatians take English show plus "old English big boned straight backed long coats" and other pet breeding?

What about the half English half german dogs?


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

I don't know much about this but my instinctive reaction would be that it would cause a narrowing of the gene pool and that isn't a brilliant idea. Taking small populations (in a scientific sense) and dividing them further is going to cause bottlenecks and potential issues.

Although if the two types aren't currently being inter-bred then I suppose this is already happening.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised. And, in their wisdom the KC's response is that they are working on creating more judges for both types. How they can square that with one standard is completely beyond me.
> 
> Creating a new breed is the only way out of a 50 year old mess. BTW - this isn't just happening in the UK. It's already underway in Germany.


White shepherds aren't shown anyway, and this isn't a problem - white boxers aren't, neither are other breeds with incorrect markings/colours.

Long and short haired dogs could be judged under the same breed standards, it's fairly common with lots of breeds.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised..


That is a different issue. 
I personally have no problem with longhaired or white GSDs since they occur naturally. I really don`t like breeding for colour or coat length as it puts cosmetics above confirmation. 
I think this muddies the water. 
The GSD above all is an active, intelligent dog. The colour doesn`t affect this - poor hocks/ temperament does. 
Long haired GSDs can be shown. The fact they don`t do well comes down to judges again.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Now don't get me wrong I don't like either type the west german lines for the bent back or the english type they're too heavy and short legged and few breeders even hip score. However this is a breed with enough health issues as it is and to reduce the gene pool even more by taking the english style dogs out would cause even more issues. When even some of the working kennels will breed in show dogs why can't there be more of a crossover. 

The english types can't even claim to be the original style the first gsds looked more like malinois. The standard does allow for different colours and coat types I think so they can be shown.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Personally, I would prefer to see breeders of both types working together for the betterment of the breed as a whole, but as that is unlikely to happen, then it wouldn't unduly concern me if the Alsatian type were to become a type in its own right. The two types are very distinct and the Alsatian type is only common to the UK in any event, so perhaps it should become the "English Alsatian" or similar. 

It won't change things for many people, or even for the breed as a whole (are both types are being bred and exhibited in any event).


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

AlbertRoss said:


> Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised. And, in their wisdom the KC's response is that they are working on creating more judges for both types. How they can square that with one standard is completely beyond me.
> 
> Creating a new breed is the only way out of a 50 year old mess. BTW - this isn't just happening in the UK. It's already underway in Germany.


I assume you are not a breed specialist, as if you were you would know that the longhair is recognised by the WUSV and the British Sieger held Longhair classes last year. 

The fanciers of White GSDs have created a new breed the Swiss Shepherd which is recognised in some countries.

No doubt some people who like blues and livers will do something with theirs.

Interestingly I have never seen an Alsation or a White GSD in the UK compete at top level in IPO etc, I wonder why?


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> It's a nice idea but where do all the other types fit in?
> I don't see how it can work.
> 
> GSDs would encompass west german showline, west german workline, Czech and DDR workline? Meanwhile alsatians take English show plus "old English big boned straight backed long coats" and other pet breeding?
> ...


It was done perfectly well with Akitas. In EVERY country - except the UK - Aklitas were split by looks. The KC bucked the trend, against the wishes of all Akita clubs, by separating them by genetics. I could ask why the GSD standard doesn't allow White dogs. There's no historical reason for it and the "Swiss White", while identical to the GSD in every way other than coat colour isn't recognised here. (There again, their conformation is pretty much identical to the Alsatian type - not the SV type).

The argument is a fairly simple one - there are 2 recognisable 'types'. The health reports, endorsed by the KC and exemplified in the notes to vets looking at Best of Breed in Champ shows, specifically asks for conformation checks. The Bateson report specifically calls out "Banana backs" as having problems. Those dogs being targeted in this way are the 'Germanic' type. However, the KC stops short of taking any action because of the huge amount of money it makes from registering these dogs. Although it tried to stand up to the GSD clubs by withdrawing CCs it has, in effect, backed down. Worse, it states that it is trying to increase the judging numbers of both types. It is complete nonsense to say that two radically different looking dogs can both be judged correctly to the same standard. As a matter of fact, not conjecture, because of the way the KC promotes judges the number of Alsatian types that win GSD classes at shows will continue to decrease.

However, it is also a matter of fact that the majority of the current 'English' type of dog resembles the GSDs before they were messed up by the Martin Brothers in Germany in the 1970s. Even hardened international SV judges have said so.

There is ample opportunity for people to decide which way they would go - if they want to go with an Alsatian Breed they'll be welcomed. If they want to stay GSD that's fine.

This is simply a move to get away from the divisions in the breed, to stop the decades of silly sniping and to put both types of dog in a position where they can go forward without encroaching on the others.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I assume you are not a breed specialist, as if you were you would know that the longhair is recognised by the WUSV and the British Sieger held Longhair classes last year.
> 
> The fanciers of White GSDs have created a new breed the Swiss Shepherd which is recognised in some countries.
> 
> ...


And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

This is a bit off topic...but as soon as I read it I thought "noooooooo" cos I've just spent the 2 and a half years since we got Rosie explaining to people that alsatians and GSD's are the same breed :yesnod: and how the name changed etc.


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## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

AlbertRoss said:


> And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.


Nothing stopping people showing long haired GSD over here.

Lack of undercoat is a fault, but so is big ears or poor front - no disqualifications in the UK.

I showed my long coat several times


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I thought it was only changed to Alsation after the war due to the rift with Germany and only recently recognised as GSD again by the KC. 

If it was originally a German breed I don't see why it shouldn't stay that way, it's a bit like calling an Alaskan Malamute a British Malamute and I really wouldn't like that!


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> It was done perfectly well with Akitas. In EVERY country - except the UK - Aklitas were split by looks. The KC bucked the trend, against the wishes of all Akita clubs, by separating them by genetics. I could ask why the GSD standard doesn't allow White dogs. There's no historical reason for it and the "Swiss White", while identical to the GSD in every way other than coat colour isn't recognised here. (There again, their conformation is pretty much identical to the Alsatian type - not the SV type).


So any "straight backed" should be alsatians and any with a correct topline should be GSD?
So for example, some working lines could be alsatians and some gsd, which leaves a problem if you want to cross lines.
No "alsatians" could be included in a breeding programme based on working ability but also wanting to follow SV rules?

The only "type" it makes sense for are the alsatians. But even then, what are they going to do when they want to import more fresh blood from USA/Canda where they are still registered as GSDs?



AlbertRoss said:


> And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.


Does the UK breed standard, or does it not, state "No hard and fast rule for length of hair"


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> So any "straight backed" should be alsatians and any with a correct topline should be GSD?


The 'correct' topline - as you well know - is defined: "The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away* in a straight line* to the gently sloping croup". That's a correct topline - not a curve. The croup doesn't start behind the withers, although on almost every SV dog the owner would have you believe it does.

Here's one of last year's Siegers

Do tell me how ANY part of that dog's topline is straight. And, as it patently isn't straight but is most definitely curved, how can it possibly be justified as being one of the best dogs of 2012? Simple answer - it can't. But that doesn't worry the Germanic supporters because they'll argue forever that the dog has a straight back. Perhaps vouchers to the opticians ought to be awarded rather than certificates? (And, to save you looking it up the FCI standard says almost exactly the same thing, so you can't even argue that the Germans are different). :yesnod:



> Does the UK breed standard, or does it not, state "No hard and fast rule for length of hair"


It certainly does. And how many long haired dogs ever grace a show ring? Hardly any. And how many win anything? Hmm. Let me see - no, I've still got 10 fingers left to count on.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> The 'correct' topline - as you well know - is defined: "The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away* in a straight line* to the gently sloping croup". That's a correct topline - not a curve. The croup doesn't start behind the withers, although on almost every SV dog the owner would have you believe it does.
> 
> Here's one of last year's Siegers


Seriously, the best you could do is a puppy?

How about world Sieger x2:












AlbertRoss said:


> It certainly does. And how many long haired dogs ever grace a show ring? Hardly any. And how many win anything? Hmm. Let me see - no, I've still got 10 fingers left to count on.


A long haired GSD has qualified for Crufts. And I've run out of digits to count how many have been exhibited at open shows.

Would love to hear your views on the rest of my post about problems with importing fresh blood and splitting up the rest of the different types.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Seriously, the best you could do is a puppy?
> 
> How about world Sieger x2:


I used a photo in the public domain. It doesn't matter that it's a puppy - it's a typical example of what the Bateson report called "A Banana back". The very thing that the KC want vets to look at in shows. Why? because there's lots of evidence that the only type of dog that exhibits the loose hocks that exemplify "half dog, half frog" are precisely that type of dog.

And, don't try and dodge the issue of topline - you brought it up.

Get a ruler, put it on the back of the dog you have pictured and show me, once again, where that dog is straight. As anyone can see there's a curve from withers to bum. Be absolutely clear - the standard says straight not curved. Unfortunately, it's the same old, same old with Germanic supporters. They simply can't go with facts and just rely on hopelessly outdated opinions and bias. Why is that? Could it be anything to do with the very large amounts of money involved with Germanic style dogs? Or are they just habitual deniers?

It's been said that this campaign has frightened the Germanic supporters. Which is quite funny because it's all about leaving them alone to do their own thing with their own dogs. I think it's because they are terrified at having their dirty washing finally exhibited in public for the whole dog world to see. I may be wrong. But, we shall see.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

AlbertRoss said:


> And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.


You would be right in your assumptions as there is no disqualification clause in the KC system (unlike many other) therefore you are at liberty to show a dog of ANY colour and ANY coat.

The fact that the breed standard states that white and other colours are undesirable does not prevent people showing them. 

HTH


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts? 
I don`t give a tinkers cuss about show titles - the system atm is all about fashion, not the good of the breed - although there are some rumblings of change. 
Flouncing off to form a separate group will only weaken the breed IMO.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?


When I read the website my immediate thought was it seems they're doing this because they want to be able to do conformation showing with their type of GSD.

There are plenty of breeds where there are drastic differences between working types and show types with no separation into new breeds.

If it's about health then surely it would be better to try and change the breed as a whole, not just flouncing off and letting those people producing unhealthy dogs continue?


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I can't see how it would work tbh.

The breed shouldn't be split anyway. They are all to a certain standard you can see they are the same breed, they potentially suffer from the same conditions ect. 

I don't like the name "Alsatian" either.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

can someone please explain to me what it means? how will they be different? is it one straight back one slopped back ? or one black and tan and one white? so confused!


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?
> I don`t give a tinkers cuss about show titles - the system atm is all about fashion, not the good of the breed - although there are some rumblings of change.
> Flouncing off to form a separate group will only weaken the breed IMO.


The facts - not conjecture - about breed health within GSDs are quite simple (and if you read the Health section on The Alsatian a fuller picture is available there).

Basically, in the 1970s the German SV club, which has always looked upon itself as the fount of all wisdom on GSDs, was run by 2 brothers. In order to enrich themselves they bred dogs which took on a different shape to the existing dog and awarded each other Championship status. The 'new' dog, which they, themselves, described as a 'Continental Shepherd' has a distinct curve in its back. However, because it is always the case that people breeding pedigree dogs want to use Champions (or Siegers, which is the equivalent) as parents the conformation of those dogs spread out through the breed. It is a recorded fact that the numbers (supposedly) sired by such dogs were in the hundreds (but it is doubtful that the actual sire was indeed the one named as the parent in many cases).

This meant that the 'older' conformation of dog was gradually dying out - except that in the UK and the USA where the breed was kept alive in its original type by breeding from dogs that had been taken from Germany after the Second World war. That type, basically, is what was known for years as the Alsatian and is usually referred to now as the 'English' type (in the UK).

A lot of people here decided that the Germans 'owned' the breed and what they decided was 'right' and so they started importing German dogs and breeding to look like the dogs the Martin brothers had produced. It is those dogs that the Kennel Club say have health problems in that their conformation is unsound. A typical example was shown on Pedigree Dogs Exposed (a clip is on the website of the Alsatian Breed Campaign website - 3rd page of the 'Campaign' section). The 'Germanic' breeders say this isn't the case and have fought the Kennel Club bitterly over the KC's efforts to improve the situation. As far as we have been able to ascertain this has not been seen in the Alsatian dog and can, therefore, be linked with the curved back. Indeed the Bateson report on dog health specifically cites "Banana back" GSDs (not my words - they are in the report).

The Germanics also argue that the English type is responsible for epilepsy within the breed by identifying one particular 'Alsatian' dog in the pedigrees of a number of dogs known to have exhibited idiomatic epilepsy. They conveniently forget to mention that the dog's grandfather was imported form Germany and was himself epileptic.

Unfortunately, the two sides are incapable of reaching common ground because neither will agree that their dogs deviate from the 'standard' which delineates the 'perfect' dog. It is also the case that the German governing body outlawed White dogs and only in the past couple of years changed their standard to accept different coat lengths. (Pale colours are deprecated because loss of colour indicates loss of hearing, which is undesirable in a working dog).

We believe that rather than weakening the breed splitting it into Alsatian and Martin Dogs would be sensible. There are precedents. Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were both originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.


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## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

You know what ? My little princess is perfect in every way (biased) but she could outdo many i' ve seen pics of for sale at the end of the day she is my pet and best friend !!!


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2013)

AlbertRoss said:


> Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were both originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.


What???
Do you have a source for this?

I'm having a hard time seeing how two breeds developed in entirely different continents could ever have been considered the same breed!

Edit, LOL NVM! I thought you were saying Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were once considered the same breed, but now I see you're saying Akitas split in to two separate breeds and Belgian Shepherds split in to Tervs etc. 
Sheesh... should not post when sleep deprived!

Though I did not know there were two Akita breeds ?? Can someone clarify?


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Though I did not know there were two Akita breeds ?? Can someone clarify?


There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.

I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Without knowing anything about dog physiology.. I'm sure nature wouldn't produce a curved spine..it certainly doesn't look very healthy..

Do any wild animals have a curved spine?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.
> 
> I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.


Off topic but The Japanese Inu is more in line with the original Akita used by Samurai to hunt wild game. The American Akita known for its broad face and bigger body was introduced when dog fighting was popular in Japan. It was mixed with Danes and St Bernards for the extra bulk as the original inu may not have been strong enough for the Japanese Tosa. A woman then saw one and took it to America and to cut a long story short it became the American Akita. The two different looks were still regarded as an Akita untill a KC..dont know which one decided to split the breed based on how different they look. Well that's basically what I understand it to be anyway. 

Sam looks freakishly like Hachiko..the famous Akita known for his amazing loyalty.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2013)

5rivers79 said:


> Without knowing anything about dog physiology.. I'm sure nature wouldn't produce a curved spine..it certainly doesn't look very healthy..
> 
> Do any wild animals have a curved spine?


Many of the sighthounds come to mind as having a curved top line and none seem to be any worse for the wear.
And mother nature has certainly created huge variation among vertebrates, including many different types of curvatures.

The thing is, when looking at structure, it's not just ONE aspect of the dog's conformation that should matter, rather, how all the pieces fit together. Roached back + weak croup + cow hocks + exaggerated angulation + flat feet is not the same as a curved back with a well put together rear end.

You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2013)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.
> 
> I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.


I did some digging and in the US, the AKC recognizes both as being types of the same breed. One single breed here, no split.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Many of the sighthounds come to mind as having a curved top line and none seem to be any worse for the wear.
> And mother nature has certainly created huge variation among vertebrates, including many different types of curvatures.
> 
> The thing is, when looking at structure, it's not just ONE aspect of the dog's conformation that should matter, rather, how all the pieces fit together. Roached back + weak croup + cow hocks + exaggerated angulation + flat feet is not the same as a curved back with a well put together rear end.
> ...


I would see the GSD as multipurpose so why introduce the bent back? There's other dog for relentless speed such as the Belgian Malinois.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

JFI - The situation re Akitas is complicated but serves well to illustrate the fact that a German Shepherd/Alsatian split is perfectly possible simply by reference to shape.

Some countries have split the breed into two breeds. They name them differently in different places but for simplicity here I'll call them American Akitas and Japanese Akitas. The Amnerican, Canadian and Australian Kennel Clubs say they are two 'types' of the same dog and only recognise one breed. All other nations, including the UK (and the European 'Governing Body' the FCI), say that they are different breeds.

The differences are down to size and markings - there is no genetic difference.

A similar situation is true of the Belgian Shepherd which can be considered as either 4 different types of one breed or 4 different breeds, depending on which national kennel club does the classifying.

The Alsatian Campaign argues that we have two very distinctive 'looks' of the same dog and that they should be separate breeds and that this is a paramount health issue because of the poor conformation of the 'Germanic' type of dog which is leading to major health issues.

To see what I'm talking about look here. It's an upsetting video but the dog shown has ancestry which includes the top German 'Sieger' and although this is an exaggerated case it is by no means unique.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

ouesi said:


> You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.


The German Shepherd was meant to be a 'trotting' dog not a fast runner. One of the arguments put forward about the change of conformation was that it was to give the dog more 'drive'. All the veterinary evidence and opinion states this is (politely) balderdash! As a shepherd the dog was trained to trot up and down a fixed path keeping sheep in a particular area. Not to tear about.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> I used a photo in the public domain. It doesn't matter that it's a puppy - it's a typical example of what the Bateson report called "A Banana back". The very thing that the KC want vets to look at in shows. Why? *because there's lots of evidence that the only type of dog that exhibits the loose hocks that exemplify "half dog, half frog" are precisely that type of dog.*


Really? This is an English dog that won its class. Terrible hocks, and it's an adult 

Open GSD class at Otley Canine Society Judge Ann Barker (Rikov) | Facebook



AlbertRoss said:


> And, don't try and dodge the issue of topline - you brought it up.
> 
> Get a ruler, put it on the back of the dog you have pictured and show me, once again, where that dog is straight. As anyone can see there's a curve from withers to bum. Be absolutely clear - the standard says straight not curved. Unfortunately, it's the same old, same old with Germanic supporters. They simply can't go with facts and just rely on hopelessly outdated opinions and bias. Why is that? Could it be anything to do with the very large amounts of money involved with Germanic style dogs? Or are they just habitual deniers?


The standard that you quoted does not call for a straight topline, only a straight back, which the the dog pictured does have. If the back "falls away" from the "high, long withers" - that means it slopes from the end of the withers, and then the croup slopes again from the end of the back.

Tell me how "falling away" = keeps level??



AlbertRoss said:


> It's been said that this campaign has frightened the Germanic supporters. Which is quite funny because it's all about leaving them alone to do their own thing with their own dogs. I think it's because they are terrified at having their dirty washing finally exhibited in public for the whole dog world to see. I may be wrong. But, we shall see.


What dirty laundry? The fact that our dogs have excellent health test results to be allowed breed? That they have to prove themselves capable of working? And that they have to complete a 20km endurance test?
We hold Koerungs in the UK, and to show a dog over 2 years of age under WUSV rules it must be Breed Surveyed, which includes passing health test results, gunshot test, and measurements with a tape measure compared to the breed standard.
Out of the over 100 comments on the debate page I've not seen any fear, only irritation at the arrogance of Alsatianists. Over a year of preparation and only 9 likes on the FB page (up to 16 today I notice  )? Says a lot.



AlbertRoss said:


> JFI - The situation re Akitas is complicated but serves well to illustrate the fact that a German Shepherd/Alsatian split is perfectly possible simply by reference to shape.


And what about what happens when you get a German shaped dog out of 2 Alsatians? It happens. Does this mean that you couldn't then cross 2 working line dogs if they are different shapes? Working breeders might have something to say about that!




AlbertRoss said:


> The Alsatian Campaign argues that we have two very distinctive 'looks' of the same dog and that they should be separate breeds and that this is a paramount health issue because of the poor conformation of the 'Germanic' type of dog which is leading to major health issues.
> 
> To see what I'm talking about look here. It's an upsetting video but the dog shown has ancestry which includes the top German 'Sieger' and although this is an exaggerated case it is by no means unique.


If you were in fact up to date with the German side of things you might have noticed all the disgusted remarks at this video. These are the kind of puppies that countries like Croatia are churning out. An SV judge has been heard saying that you shouldn't combine Zamp and Vegas for just this reason.



AlbertRoss said:


> The German Shepherd was meant to be a 'trotting' dog not a fast runner. One of the arguments put forward about the change of conformation was that it was to give the dog more 'drive'. All the veterinary evidence and opinion states this is (politely) balderdash! As a shepherd the dog was trained to trot up and down a fixed path keeping sheep in a particular area. Not to tear about.



Her point was that they are a trotting dog. Have you seen the drive on the dogs at the German Sieger show? I can't find the results atm but it was a WGSL dog that won the national herding comp last year I think! Many WGSL dogs are working sheep daily in Europe.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Really? This is an English dog that won its class. Terrible hocks, and it's an adult


Lousy judge. Hocks were bad when it wasn't stacked properly. You couldn't see what they were doing on the move. OTOH search out a video of Elmo at Crufts and watch his hocks wobble. And he's supposedly the best of British. LMAO.



> The standard that you quoted does not call for a straight topline, only a straight back, which the the dog pictured does have. If the back "falls away" from the "high, long withers" - that means it slopes from the end of the withers, and then the croup slopes again from the end of the back.
> 
> Tell me how "falling away" = keeps level??


Tell me what "level" has to do with anything? Which part of "straight" can't you understand? Read the following sentence "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long." Where in that does it say "curved"? Where does it say "level"?



> What dirty laundry? The fact that our dogs have excellent health test results to be allowed breed? That they have to prove themselves capable of working? And that they have to complete a 20km endurance test?
> We hold Koerungs in the UK, and to show a dog over 2 years of age under WUSV rules it must be Breed Surveyed, which includes passing health test results, gunshot test, and measurements with a tape measure compared to the breed standard.
> Out of the over 100 comments on the debate page I've not seen any fear, only irritation at the arrogance of Alsatianists. Over a year of preparation and only 9 likes on the FB page (up to 16 today I notice  )? Says a lot.


What the WUSV says (or does) or what games you play with your dogs is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets be 100% clear - Schutzhund is a sport. No more, no less. It's available to many breeds of dog and is run by the FCI who took it over from the SV. Health? Yep, that's how come the poor little puppy in that video was bred from "healthy" parents. Once again you are in denial. Not ONE of your health tests addresses conformation. Which is exactly where the KC has a problem with GSDs.



> And what about what happens when you get a German shaped dog out of 2 Alsatians? It happens. Does this mean that you couldn't then cross 2 working line dogs if they are different shapes? Working breeders might have something to say about that!


What happens if you get a dog that you don't think measures up to the standard? You don't breed from it! Simples.



> If you were in fact up to date with the German side of things you might have noticed all the disgusted remarks at this video. These are the kind of puppies that countries like Croatia are churning out. An SV judge has been heard saying that you shouldn't combine Zamp and Vegas for just this reason.


Hmmm. If even the SV judges don't think you should breed from their top dog - what hope have you got?



> Her point was that they are a trotting dog. Have you seen the drive on the dogs at the German Sieger show? I can't find the results atm but it was a WGSL dog that won the national herding comp last year I think! Many WGSL dogs are working sheep daily in Europe.


So, there are dogs working sheep! So what? Some of them work as guide dogs, some as sniffer dogs, some as 'helper dogs'. Exactly what, in those jobs, requires 'drive'? Define drive. Because it's a total loss to a dog that was developed to be a trotting dog. It doesn't need 'drive'.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Surely if the breed is separated then it will only encourage people to keep breeding and showing the "German" type, therefore maintaining the conformation problems seen in the GSD today?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Anyone else just think it's a case of children storming off in a huff because they're not getting their own way? 

I've been looking at "old style" "alsatians" whatever they want to call themselves kennels. They seem to only hip score if they do any health testing. I even had an english type breeder tell me hip scoring was just a money making scheme from the kennel club. However bad looking some of the WGSL dogs are they're fully health tested . 

Bear in mind I prefer the east european working lines I can't stand the exaggerated show dog look either but they're more ethical than most of the alsatian breeders.


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

i am all for healthy straight backed original breed that first arrived in uk as alsatians from germany via alsace. they didnt have sloping backs back then so why the sloping back gsds nowadays eh? my mate as a sloping aback shepherd and it as to be put down as it was so crippled and wobbly in his hind legs. so cruel to breed them that way. 

my family have always had alsatians and i have often had them off the police as rejects due to lack of aggression. they were all healthy straight backed active alsatians and frisky lived the longest of them all to nearly 18 years of age. the rest of them lived up to 14 - 15 years. they all could jump over 6 ft fences no probabelm. 

as for the colour, it don't bother me as long they're all alsatians and are healthy. i hate in breeding.

i don't like people abbrev to gsd rather than full name so why call such a grand looking breed by abbrevs than full name eh? alsatian is easier to say than a mouthful or in 3 letters like gsd. some people even say sheps and at first i think they said the dogs name then realise they mean abbrev for gsd. 

in australian they have them australian cattle dogs but they call them blue or red heelers. 'cos saying acd in full is a mouthful!


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

see the link Home

i prefer the 1925 version of the alsatian. such a real fit active happy healthy dog


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

I must say I don't like the sloping curved backs shown in the pics on this thread. My ex has a gsd from Poland and her back is much straighter and then curves gently down towards the tail-I wish I had a pic of her standing up.That's what they should look like in my opinion.
Like this-if this works http://www.psy.elk.pl/zdjecia/dodane/16973_213_12265_owczarek-niemiecki.jpg


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Belgian Shepherds were originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.


nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very *first* breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.

I think the same shrinking isolated gene pool would be true of the British Alsation and for what ...so that you can have greater show ring success ? - the price is not worth paying !

..and as an aside to my eyes both GSD 'types aare a million miles away from how te breed looked in it's early days ( and presumably when it's breed standrad was first written )

Alsation type










GSD type









Original type










in fact my own breed looks more like the original GSD did


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> Lousy judge. Hocks were bad when it wasn't stacked properly. You couldn't see what they were doing on the move. OTOH search out a video of Elmo at Crufts and watch his hocks wobble. And he's supposedly the best of British. LMAO.


Excuses excuses, you can't say wobbly hocks are only in German dogs now.
Clutching at straws.
Best of British? The British Sieger show isn't limited to British dogs, just as the German Sieger show isn't, so I'd say the dog that made V4 at the BSZS 2012 could be classed as "better" than the one that made V50 at his last appearance in Germany.



AlbertRoss said:


> Tell me what "level" has to do with anything? Which part of "straight" can't you understand? Read the following sentence "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long." Where in that does it say "curved"? Where does it say "level"?


I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.



AlbertRoss said:


> What the WUSV says (or does) or what games you play with your dogs is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets be 100% clear - Schutzhund is a sport. No more, no less. It's available to many breeds of dog and is run by the FCI who took it over from the SV. Health? Yep, that's how come the poor little puppy in that video was bred from "healthy" parents. Once again you are in denial. Not ONE of your health tests addresses conformation. Which is exactly where the KC has a problem with GSDs.


You're going to need to pick whether or not you want to listen to Max von Stephanitz, because he seemed to think SchH was rather important. Does it matter how it's trained? What matters is the end result. 
The UK KC has nothing to do with dogs churned out in Croatia, I have NEVER seen a dog with hocks as bad as in that video. Unfortunately no type of dog is immune to idiots.



AlbertRoss said:


> What happens if you get a dog that you don't think measures up to the standard? You don't breed from it! Simples.


So you're going to keep all the German shaped dogs that crop up to make sure they're not bred from? You know the KC can and do lift endorsements. Then you could end up with a small population of German shaped Alsatians.



AlbertRoss said:


> Hmmm. If even the SV judges don't think you should breed from their top dog - what hope have you got?


That's right, you just twist my words. Are you stupid?



AlbertRoss said:


> So, there are dogs working sheep! So what?


Woah, hang on. What do you mean so what? So - the international shaped GSD can and does work in its original purpose. Kind of defeats your line of thought that they're all cripples due to their conformation.



AlbertRoss said:


> Some of them work as guide dogs, some as sniffer dogs, some as 'helper dogs'. Exactly what, in those jobs, requires 'drive'? Define drive. Because it's a total loss to a dog that was developed to be a trotting dog. It doesn't need 'drive'.


A trotting dog needs rear drive for efficient movement.



Thorne said:


> Surely if the breed is separated then it will only encourage people to keep breeding and showing the "German" type, therefore maintaining the conformation problems seen in the GSD today?


Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2013)

Gah, some of them slope down like frogs.
Can't say I've ever seen a sloped on IRL though, every one near me has straight backs.

It is not fair on the dog at all, IMO.


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

Bijou amended by Nick said:


> *GSD show type*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


amended as i dunno how to save pics and upload on here myself.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Shrap said:


> I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.


Keep up the good work Shrap! :thumbsup: Perhaps If you say it often enough, the penny might just drop that "straight" does not mean "level" - a straight line can be at any angle.



Shrap said:


> Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?


I don't have your experience of the breed, but I just wanted to add that I read in the dog papers last week that, in the year since independent vet checks have been carried out at championship shows, *no* GSD has failed.

Now, being as Albertross says that owners of the English type GSDs are throwing their toys out of the pram because their type never win, then this must mean that the Germanic type have won and have all been deemed healthy by independent vets.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

nickarzia zeke davies said:


> amended as i dunno how to save pics and upload on here myself.


Current working GSD (rated excellent, ZVV2,IPO3,SCHH/VPG1,ZPS1)










Current show GSD (2x VA1, SchH3)


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## vet-2-b (Sep 25, 2008)

To be OP honest it sounds like children fighting lol can't you just pull together as a group who have a common interest of the breed and do what's best for the breed not what's best for your pockets or for how many cc's you win. As a Shepard surely it is important that it herds? From your comments op you only seem to care about how the dog looks? surely splitting the breed in half you just reducing the gene pool and will just cause more issues.


I don't care how long a dog's name is it really doesn't bother me lol who care if it's 5 words long or a few letters


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Bijou said:


> nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very *first* breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.
> 
> I think the same shrinking isolated gene pool would be true of the British Alsation and for what ...so that you can have greater show ring success ? - the price is not worth paying !
> 
> ...


I would agree. Von Stepanitz's vision of a GSD is a far cry from what you see today. A malinois is far closer. Neither the British or Germanic types resemble them. Not seen many British ones, but have seen Elmo move. His back isn't straight, anyone who thinks otherwise should familiarise themselves with something straight edged like a ruler and have another look. Also seen the sickle hocked German dogs can't stand four square like any other dog but end up with wobbling hocks down to their confirmation. The British dogs are too long in the body and short in their legs. The first time I did my conformation and movement course with the KC and they explained the constructional requirements of an endurance trotter, much like a GSD, which Aldo requires a sharp turn of movement and burst of speed, it was quite clear how either type was constructionslly incapable of doing that. Quite unlike a malinois which is perfectly built to do that.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> I would agree. Von Stepanitz's vision of a GSD is a far cry from what you see today. A malinois is far closer. Neither the British or Germanic types resemble them. Not seen many British ones, but have seen Elmo move. His back isn't straight, anyone who thinks otherwise should familiarise themselves with something straight edged like a ruler and have another look. Also seen the sickle hocked German dogs can't stand four square like any other dog but end up with wobbling hocks down to their confirmation. The British dogs are too long in the body and short in their legs. The first time I did my conformation and movement course with the KC and they explained the constructional requirements of an endurance trotter, much like a GSD, which Aldo requires a sharp turn of movement and burst of speed, it was quite clear how either type was constructionslly incapable of doing that. Quite unlike a malinois which is perfectly built to do that.


Have you told this to the dogs that work sheep and are winning herding competitions?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Shrap said:


> Have you told this to the dogs that work sheep and are winning herding competitions?


Do you mean Border Collies or when a German GSD wins best of a bad bunch?


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Do you mean Border Collies or when a German GSD wins best of a bad bunch?


I mean the dogs at the SV Bundesleistungshüten.

2012 hutesieger sired by WGSL dog, can't find info on dam but maternal gsire is V rated in conformation so likely a dog with good conformation too.

2011 hutesieger V rated in conformation and dam is more than half show line (also V rated)

2010 hutesieger V rated and from V rated sire:


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Bijou said:


> nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very *first* breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.]


As a matter of FACT the Belgian Shepherd was first created, as a breed in Belgium in 1891. The breed standard was produced in 1892 and the first registrations tok place in 1910. In Belgium all four _types_ are recognised as a single _breed_. The KC amalgamated the types - but still kept the single breed classification.They did indeed, recant and revert to the FCI standard of 4 types. However, other countries (Australia, New Zealand,..) recognise them as 4 breeds. In America the Groenendael and Tervuren were considered one breed.

It is obvious that despite differences some places use 'type' and some use 'breed'. That's precisely what the Alsatian Campaign want to achieve - the separation of types into breeds.

BTW - a similar situation occurs in Akitas.



Shrap said:


> Excuses excuses, you can't say wobbly hocks are only in German dogs now.


I can quite easily say that there is no evidence in that film that the dog has wobbly hocks. The only evidence is that he has been stood poorly.



> Best of British? The British Sieger show isn't limited to British dogs, just as the German Sieger show isn't, so I'd say the dog that made V4 at the BSZS 2012 could be classed as "better" than the one that made V50 at his last appearance in Germany.


Totally irrelevant. The simple fact, once again, is that Elmo exhibited wobbly hocks when parading at Crufts. I've still got the video. It's a really sad example because it shows that even the supposed 'best dog' has a glaring fault.



> I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.


And I suggest you rush to your optician. Or, more simply put a ruler on him. We play a game every time the Sieger supplement in the dog papers is produced where we put a ruler on the dogs' pictures and see how much of the body of the dog comes above the ruler between its withers and its croup. It can be a third of its body. Laughable.



> You're going to need to pick whether or not you want to listen to Max von Stephanitz, because he seemed to think SchH was rather important. Does it matter how it's trained? What matters is the end result.


Why don't you pick on von Stephanitz's ideal dog? Why don't any of your dogs look anything like it? Simply because the big money in Martin shepherds has polluted the breed.



> The UK KC has nothing to do with dogs churned out in Croatia, I have NEVER seen a dog with hocks as bad as in that video. Unfortunately no type of dog is immune to idiots.


The fact remains that the dog is bred from a Sieger line. It doesn't matter where it is. If such a disaster can be produced from one of your top dogs then you owe it to the whole of the dog world to pack up now.



> So you're going to keep all the German shaped dogs that crop up to make sure they're not bred from? You know the KC can and do lift endorsements. Then you could end up with a small population of German shaped Alsatians.


What need for endorsements? People breed dogs to come as close to their idea of the standard. If dogs are produced away from the standard they they tend not to be bred from or become pets. By the same argument there are some fairly horrendous dogs produced by puppy farms under the GSD label. They aren't representative of the breed in any way - but they exist and are registered as pedigree.



> That's right, you just twist my words. Are you stupid?


ROFL - No. But thanks for showing yourself up (as always happens when SV people run out of factual argument they have to resort to abuse - very sad).



> Woah, hang on. What do you mean so what? So - the international shaped GSD can and does work in its original purpose. Kind of defeats your line of thought that they're all cripples due to their conformation.


On the contrary - some dogs do work sheep. Unfortunately, they are working dogs not the SV type at all.



> A trotting dog needs rear drive for efficient movement.


Ridiculous. The whole issue of drive (according to the Martin brothers) was that the dog would propel itself forward by use of its back legs and just use its front ones to keep balance and direction. A trotting dog uses all 4 legs equally and the whole of the GSD gait exemplifies this. A trotting dog doesn't need 'drive'. It's a myth that was created for personal enrichment by the Martins.



> Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?


If you look ALL OVER THE WORLD you will see that places where good dogs were taken after the war tend to look much more like the Alsatian types than the SV types. So, no, ALL OVER THE WORLD, they aren't cripples. But, as the Eu say and the Bateson report was quite specific about - the Banana back dogs have conformation problems. But, of course, you'd know better than them, wouldn't you?



Spellweaver said:


> Keep up the good work Shrap! :thumbsup: Perhaps If you say it often enough, the penny might just drop that "straight" does not mean "level" - a straight line can be at any angle.


I've always maintained exactly that. But, unlike Shrap, I maintain that straight doesn't mean curved. Nowhere have I ever said the dog's back should be level - that's in your imagination (which, of course, doesn't surprise me). The standard is clear - straight with a slight slope from withers to onset of croup. Nowhere does that say curved or level.



> I don't have your experience of the breed, but I just wanted to add that I read in the dog papers last week that, in the year since independent vet checks have been carried out at championship shows, *no* GSD has failed.
> 
> Now, being as Albertross says that owners of the English type GSDs are throwing their toys out of the pram because their type never win, then this must mean that the Germanic type have won and have all been deemed healthy by independent vets.


It means that they have passed the vet check which actually says: "There is much controversy about the hindquarter conformation of the GSD. Principally the issue is conformational problems with cow hocks and weakness (instability) in the hind limbs when moving". Unlike the other breeds which give specific faults to find the GSD's vet check is unique in that it is so non-specific as to be worthless.

And, as a matter of fact, the English type do win - just not under Germanic type judges. And undergo exactly the same vet check.


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

Shrap said:


> Current working GSD (rated excellent, ZVV2,IPO3,SCHH/VPG1,ZPS1)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


top one carnt be a working dog? i aint seen sloping banana backs as working dogs yet. they both look to me show dogs.

working dogs have straighter backs.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

Shrap said:


> I mean the dogs at the SV Bundesleistungshüten.
> 
> 2012 hutesieger sired by WGSL dog, can't find info on dam but maternal gsire is V rated in conformation so likely a dog with good conformation too.
> 
> ...


that dog look better than other pics i seen so far and hoping thats a look up to improving the breed to straighter backs than banana backs


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

nickarzia zeke davies said:


> that dog look better than other pics i seen so far and hoping thats a look up to improving the breed to straighter backs than banana backs


One thing that does make life difficult is that the curve or straightness of the back (nothing to do with 'level') is much more apparent when the dog is put into a show pose (or 'stacked'). It also seems to be a matter that whenever SV people show photos of Alsatian type dogs they pick the worst they can find (funnily enough I've never seen them drag out a photo of an Alsatian winning at a champ show, for example) but when the Alsatianists do so they go straight to the public photos of the supposed 'top dogs' - the Siegers. (This practice has led to an exhibitor at a show making a formal complaint to the Kennel Club because someone took a photo of a particular dog whilst it was being prepared for showing - not actually being shown - and then making disparaging remarks about it on Facebook.) I've seen another silly example this week of someone posting a photo on Facebook and doing the same - but the sad individual that did it a) used a photo that had to be a good 20 years old and b) was actually called out on it by other SV supporters (good for them).

Personally, I don't think it's particularly fair to comment on photos of individual dogs unless they have been judged to be good examples of the breed - mainly because there are some very poor dogs in both camps which aren't particularly representative of the breed. Dogs with CCs or those with Champion titles are supposed to be. However, it is fair to reshow video which actually shows movement as opposed to still photos which can easily be manipulated - unless those photos have been made public with the express purpose of promoting the dog or the breed. BTW the video I cited of the 'crippled' puppy was actually made as a promotion piece!

Equally, it's quite difficult to have a sensible discussion with people whose only arguments are along the lines of "One breed, one dog, one name" without offering any justification other than it's their opinion why this should be so. There are many breeds. They all originated somewhere. And some obviously are variations on previous single breeds - think Poodle (Toy, Miniature, Standard), Akita (American/Japanese) and Dachshund(Standard, Miniature). And, yet again, the Dachshund has a 3rd category, 'Rabbit', which isn't recognised in the UK or the US but is recognised in 81 other countries.

THe Alsatian Campaign is merely a continuation of this process - the dogs look different e.g. they are of a different type, so what is so particularly hard to accept about them splitting away to form a new breed?


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?


There are-my ex has one-from Poland though not England.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> I can quite easily say that there is no evidence in that film that the dog has wobbly hocks. The only evidence is that he has been stood poorly.


  



AlbertRoss said:


> Totally irrelevant. The simple fact, once again, is that Elmo exhibited wobbly hocks when parading at Crufts. I've still got the video. It's a really sad example because it shows that even the supposed 'best dog' has a glaring fault.


My point was that he's not the best of British as you stated. There are plenty of disastrously overexaggerated English Champions, just as there are overexaggerated German line Champions.




AlbertRoss said:


> And I suggest you rush to your optician. Or, more simply put a ruler on him.














AlbertRoss said:


> Why don't you pick on von Stephanitz's ideal dog? Why don't any of your dogs look anything like it? Simply because the big money in Martin shepherds has polluted the breed.


"Ideal dog" - You can see the difference over only a few generations between Horand and breeding for a better topline. He was a starting point. Although if that is as you believe - why don't your dogs look anything like him?
Would love to see some pics of your dogs. 



AlbertRoss said:


> The fact remains that the dog is bred from a Sieger line. It doesn't matter where it is. If such a disaster can be produced from one of your top dogs then you owe it to the whole of the dog world to pack up now.


This just shows how little you know about breeding and genetics. Certain combinations of genes can produce oversize, undersize dogs, over or under angulated. There isn't a dog that produces perfection. Those puppies weren't sired by Zamp anyway. I believe it was a Vegas grandaughter put to a Zamp son. The zamp son has produced some lovely dogs.



AlbertRoss said:


> What need for endorsements? People breed dogs to come as close to their idea of the standard. If dogs are produced away from the standard they they tend not to be bred from or become pets. By the same argument there are some fairly horrendous dogs produced by puppy farms under the GSD label. They aren't representative of the breed in any way - but they exist and are registered as pedigree.


Surely that's how all this started?



AlbertRoss said:


> ROFL - No. But thanks for showing yourself up (as always happens when SV people run out of factual argument they have to resort to abuse - very sad).


Not abuse, a mere question.



AlbertRoss said:


> On the contrary - some dogs do work sheep. Unfortunately, they are working dogs not the SV type at all.


See my previous post, completely refuting this.



AlbertRoss said:


> Ridiculous. The whole issue of drive (according to the Martin brothers) was that the dog would propel itself forward by use of its back legs and just use its front ones to keep balance and direction. A trotting dog uses all 4 legs equally and the whole of the GSD gait exemplifies this. A trotting dog doesn't need 'drive'. It's a myth that was created for personal enrichment by the Martins.


Fancy a trot off between an alsatian and GSD then?



AlbertRoss said:


> If you look ALL OVER THE WORLD you will see that places where good dogs were taken after the war tend to look much more like the Alsatian types than the SV types. So, no, ALL OVER THE WORLD, they aren't cripples. But, as the Eu say and the Bateson report was quite specific about - the Banana back dogs have conformation problems. But, of course, you'd know better than them, wouldn't you?


Wouldn't mind an active link to exactly what conformation problems a normal, not overexaggerated German dog has.



nickarzia zeke davies said:


> top one carnt be a working dog? i aint seen sloping banana backs as working dogs yet. they both look to me show dogs.
> 
> working dogs have straighter backs.


Ah well, you must be right then! You should probably go and tell some of the top working kennels in the world that their dogs aren't working dogs because they have SG and V rated conformation.



5rivers79 said:


> Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?


The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".


I really can't be bothered with all your other drivel but the difference between the two types is that your type has a curved (banana) back and the Alsaian has a straight back. I was amused to see where you think the withers ended and the croup begins on your straight line. I guess that you agree with the SV people who have told me in the past that the back only goes for about 6 inches from the withers. ROFL.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Shrap said:


> The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".


Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.

These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.

As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?










I hope i dont come across as hating on the breed..just want more info as i really did want to have one sometime in my life.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> I really can't be bothered with all your other drivel but the difference between the two types is that your type has a curved (banana) back and the Alsaian has a straight back. I was amused to see where you think the withers ended and the croup begins on your straight line. I guess that you agree with the SV people who have told me in the past that the back only goes for about 6 inches from the withers. ROFL.


Does that look as if the back is 6"?

I probably could have started the croup a wee bit further back and continued the back but i'm just in from a very long, bitterly cold training session and my fingers still haven't warmed up yet.

Also - the withers should be long according to the breed standard this GSD was judged to, as should the croup.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.
> 
> These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.
> 
> ...


German Shepherds are not sprinters. They are trotting dogs. And the breed standard has changed very little from the standard that Max v Stephanitz wrote for a working dog.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2013)

5rivers79 said:


> Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.
> 
> These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.


Nature produced the human spine, and its a terrible design 



5rivers79 said:


> As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?


There is FAR more to conformation than just the one part. Lower that cheetah's withers, straighten the shoulder, bend the stifle 90 degrees, bring the hocks out, and you will end up with a sloping back. 
It's not just the design of the spine that determines how the back looks over all, all the other pieces have to fit in together.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Nature produced the human spine, and its a terrible design
> 
> There is FAR more to conformation than just the one part. Lower that cheetah's withers, straighten the shoulder, bend the stifle 90 degrees, bring the hocks out, and you will end up with a sloping back.
> It's not just the design of the spine that determines how the back looks over all, all the other pieces have to fit in together.


Thats why we slip and fall in the snow! LOL crap design! But we do have a straight spine..well i always was told to keep a straight posture! 

Whats the sloping back or curve for then..sorry if ive been told before.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2013)

5rivers79 said:


> Thats why we slip and fall in the snow! LOL crap design! But we do have a straight spine..well i always was told to keep a straight posture!
> 
> Whats the sloping back or curve for then..sorry if ive been told before.


Humans have a very curved spine! It's an S shape!

Different breeds have different angulation requirements depending on the job they're bred to do (or what the breed fanciers who put the standard together prefer).

I know next to nothing about GSDs but in my completely non expert opinion, it's not backs that are an issue with the breed, it's over angulated, cow-hocked, weak rear ends. I think people focus on the back because it's easier for the lay person to "see", but I'll take a banana back dog with a nice rear over a straight backed dog with a poor rear any day. 
Also don't forget that GSDs are stacked differently. A lot of the dogs who look like they slope downhill would look perfectly normal if you saw them standing normally.


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## Doodler (May 20, 2012)

The whole idea of breeding/doctoring Dogs to enhance their breed properties is to me a bit nasty. It leads to all kinds of problems and cruel practices. A particular breed of Dog is usually pretty obvious and interfering to enhance these properties should be outlawed. My opinion FWIW.

A GSD or Alsatian is just that-why people want to mess with any Dogs final appearance by any means,just to get a cup or peice of paper is a bit sad,again my personal opinion.

Take your Dog for what it is and enjoy thier company and personality.

My own Dog is a Labradoodle,call her a crossbreed or a mongrel if that suits you. Most 'doodles are depicted with curly hair/fur,but callie came out a,well a tousle haired mess, I love her as she is.

Sorry if I seem a bit uppity about this but as Ive allraedy said,just my opinion.

eddie


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Its what humans do we've been genetically engineering anything that came across our path since we figured out breeding a dog with good guarding instinct to another would probably create a good guard dog. People complain about conformation shows but we've been breeding dogs for our purposes since they became domesticated.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Doodler said:


> The whole idea of breeding/doctoring Dogs to enhance their breed properties is to me a bit nasty. It leads to all kinds of problems and cruel practices. A particular breed of Dog is usually pretty obvious and interfering to enhance these properties should be outlawed. My opinion FWIW.
> 
> A GSD or Alsatian is just that-why people want to mess with any Dogs final appearance by any means,just to get a cup or peice of paper is a bit sad,again my personal opinion.
> 
> ...


Does your labradoodle come from 5+ generations of fully health tested dogs? Did the breeders look at the conformation of the dogs involved to make sure pups weren't going to be too straight in the rear as can be a problem with labs and some poodles? Or did they just stick 2 dogs together to cash in on the latest fashion for "healthier than pedigree" dogs.


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

Shrap said:


> German Shepherds are not sprinters. They are trotting dogs. And the breed standard has changed very little from the standard that Max v Stephanitz wrote for a working dog.


not shure where you got info from that german shepherds/alsatians are trotting dogs from eh? my dogs aint the trotting type and they like to run. when i jog with my dogs they like to lope near me. if they were designed to be trotting dogs then they be useless to the police force would they be not eh?

that video i seen of a alsatian on a working farm in germany were running not trotting and how he loped/ran covering lots of ground. trotting aint the dog's style when rounding up the sheep eh! if a dog trots then he would loose the sheep, lol!


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Also don't forget that GSDs are stacked differently. A lot of the dogs who look like they slope downhill would look perfectly normal if you saw them standing normally.


are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2013)

nickarzia zeke davies said:


> not shure where you got info from that german shepherds/alsatians are trotting dogs from eh? my dogs aint the trotting type and they like to run. when i jog with my dogs they like to lope near me. if they were designed to be trotting dogs then they be useless to the police force would they be not eh?
> 
> that video i seen of a alsatian on a working farm in germany were running not trotting and how he loped/ran covering lots of ground. trotting aint the dog's style when rounding up the sheep eh! if a dog trots then he would loose the sheep, lol!


She's not saying they ONLY trot. She's saying the dog is not built for quick bursts of speed then long rests rather GSDs were meant to work over a long period at a steady pace. Say like a marathon runner as opposed to a sprinter.



nickarzia zeke davies said:


> are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.


No, not saying they're forced to stand like that, just that if you stacked a GSD like a doberman the slope would be less prominent.


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

ouesi said:


> She's not saying they ONLY trot. She's saying the dog is not built for quick bursts of speed then long rests rather GSDs were meant to work over a long period at a steady pace. Say like a marathon runner as opposed to a sprinter.
> 
> No, not saying they're forced to stand like that, just that if you stacked a GSD like a doberman the slope would be less prominent.


ah yeah more like a marathon runner i agree as are my dogs.

second dont make sence to me so why make them stand that way instead of like a dobermann eh? why not stand like the original 1925 foto eh? sorry i dont go in for frog/banana position dogs as they look terrible that way of standing. must put hell lotta of strain on there hind legs joints  anyhow i do see them walking in that froggy style on the streets and i would not buy them sort no way. i would rather go for the 1925 gsd/alsatian that my working dogs are.


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## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

nickarzia zeke davies said:


> are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.


It is their natural stance, my shepherd ( who was obedience lines and long coated) regularly paused in that position.


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

JulieNoob said:


> It is their natural stance, my shepherd ( who was obedience lines and long coated) regularly paused in that position.


I bet your dog didn't look as frog-like as the ones posed in the show ring do.The natural stance looks different to the posed one.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Dino says ribbit

Here is the website of the main campaigners for the split, they show pictures and talk about the kennels they would import from (US):

brightmeadowgsd.com - The American Connection

And here is an article on one of the kennels they mention as consistantly producing dogs they admire.

INSIDE THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS WORLD: ON THE SPOT - WITMER'S GERMAN SHEPHERDS

This is a dog they have already imported from Saterhaus in the States.










Sired by:


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Also - the withers should be long according to the breed standard this GSD was judged to, as should the croup.


There you go again - total imagination. There is NOTHING in the KC standard which defines the length of the withers. The height is defined but nothing about the length. It's the same old smoke and mirrors. You don't meet the standard and then imagine that it fits your dogs. It should be the other way round. Of course, you can use any other standard you like (in your case the FCI one) but that isn't the standard for dogs in the UK so it doesn't matter if the dog was judged under their rules. But even then the FCI standard requires a 'straight' back. So why doesn't the dog meet that?

Could it possibly be that the FCI standard was re-written to follow the 'design' of the dog that produces so much money in Germany? (Well, yes, of course it could. In fact, it was.) When was that revision? Hmmm. 30th August 1976. Just when the Martin brothers were perverting the shape of the dog. What a coincidence.



ouesi said:


> I know next to nothing about GSDs but in my completely non expert opinion, it's not backs that are an issue with the breed, it's over angulated, cow-hocked, weak rear ends.


According to the experts who produced the report on pedigree dogs (Bateson report) and who took specific notice of cow hocked rear ends of modern GSDs the problem was prevalent in dogs that they called 'Banana backs'. Now, when the SV people can produce an expert of similar standing to refute that it will be worth listening to. Until then the opinions of those who merely want to preserve the look of the dogs they currently breed isn't worth spit.


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## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

polishrose said:


> I bet your dog didn't look as frog-like as the ones posed in the show ring do.The natural stance looks different to the posed one.


No, sometimes she looked worse due to her HD and bad back  
It is their natural stance though, not created from nowhere just for the ring ...


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2013)

AlbertRoss said:


> According to the experts who produced the report on pedigree dogs (Bateson report) and who took specific notice of cow hocked rear ends of modern GSDs the problem was prevalent in dogs that they called 'Banana backs'.


Then why not make the split based on whether or not the dog is walking on their hocks instead of focusing on the back?

I don't get it.

Are you seriously suggesting that if we breed away from banana backs we'll somehow magically get straighter legs?


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> There you go again - total imagination. There is NOTHING in the KC standard which defines the length of the withers. The height is defined but nothing about the length. It's the same old smoke and mirrors. You don't meet the standard and then imagine that it fits your dogs.


"The standard this dog was judged to" - being that he was 2x GERMAN SIEGER - an extract from the FCI standard:

"The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, *long* withers"


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Then why not make the split based on whether or not the dog is walking on their hocks instead of focusing on the back?
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting that if we breed away from banana backs we'll somehow magically get straighter legs?


I'm not sure how they're planning on improving hocks when the main people behind this campaign are importing American Showlines, the worst hock walkers of GSD history.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They have straight backs though  who cares if they're at a 45 degree angle almost. The one that took the group at Westminster looked so flashy on the trot. During the best in show judging they're cutting around to the irish setter about to be gone over and there's this oh so wonderful and perfect dog almost staggering up the side of the ring


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Then why not make the split based on whether or not the dog is walking on their hocks instead of focusing on the back?
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting that if we breed away from banana backs we'll somehow magically get straighter legs?


No - it just happens that there is high correlation between curved backs and poor hocks. Not my opinion - the top vet in the country. And it really isn't just about poor hocks. I saw a dog with awful hocks given Best of Breed at a show - they didn't wobble but the dog was almost using the whole hock as a foot. It was an 'English' dog.

The Alsatian Breed Campaign (ABC) wants to bring back the dog that was championed by the father of the breed with a shape that was considered perfect until it was bastardized by 2 money grabbing German brothers in the 1970s. It is a simple matter of record that the EU, and in turn the Kennel Club, have issues with the conformation of the 'Continental' GSD. It's also a matter of record that the EU say that either this is put right or they are going to start banning breeding these dogs. They started this in 1987. The GSD was added to the list of dogs they named in 2008. The KC funded a report which they hoped would clear the dogs but 15 were left in - the GSD being one. At present the KC have managed to persuade the UK Government not to sign up to the EU regulations but if they do it is likely that drastic action will be enforced - albeit not immediately.

If the current SV/Continental type breeders want to go along the way they are going then we are happy that they should do so. We, OTOH, want a 'new' breed based on the way a GSD ought to be. Ideally (and this has been seriously suggested in Germany) the current GSD would be named either "The Martin Shepherd Dog" or "The Continental Shepherd Dog". The ABC used the terminology 'Alsatian' simply because it is still in common use by many people outside of the dog world. Most newspapers will use Alsatian rather than German Shepherd, for example. Ideally, the best solution would to be to leave the SV types as German Shepherd (Continental) and call ours German Shepherd (Original) but the SV people would have a collective stroke.

The SV people also keep on about it being a German breed and that the final word ought to rest there. They don't seem to realise that exactly the same sort of organisation is growing in Germany and Holland, largely because most working dogs don't look anything like that promoted by the SV.

During the time it took to ready this campaign evidence was gathered from all over the place. Lots of breeders, club officials and judges from both sides were spoken to (although they usually didn't know it was for the campaign). Very, very few were against the idea because they thought it would bring an end to decades of wrangling and still let people go their own way. Of course, they won't say so in public because they are frightened that the rest of their respective communities would somehow penalize them. And some of the "behind the scenes" activities are truly appalling.

The difference with this campaign is that it is prepared to take on the vested interests on both sides and present a rational, business like argument and not get bogged down in the old mire of people repeating the same old personal attacks and disparaging remarks.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> "The standard this dog was judged to" - being that he was 2x GERMAN SIEGER - an extract from the FCI standard:
> 
> "The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, *long* withers"


Which I acknowledged and which I pointed out was completely irrelevant. In the UK we use KC standards not FCI. If that dog appears in the UK ring he should be marked down.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> The Alsatian Breed Campaign (ABC) wants to bring back the dog that was championed by the father of the breed with a shape that was considered perfect until it was bastardized by 2 money grabbing German brothers in the 1970s.


Then why has someone named as being behind this campaign imported american showlines?


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> Which I acknowledged and which I pointed out was completely irrelevant. In the UK we use KC standards not FCI. If that dog appears in the UK ring he should be marked down.


He hasn't appeared in the UK ring lmfao.

Why won't you post a pic of your dogs? Why are you hiding behind a screen name?


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Then why has someone named as being behind this campaign imported american showlines?


Why not? You might just as well ask why so many UK kennels have had to import German dogs to 'improve' their dogs.



Shrap said:


> He hasn't appeared in the UK ring lmfao.


So it was pointless bringing him to the discussion at all.



> Why won't you post a pic of your dogs? Why are you hiding behind a screen name?


Because I refuse to get drawn into an argument or point scoring about individual dogs unless they are put up as being the 'top examples' of the breed. The campaign is about the breed in general not about any individual. If you want to make it that way that's your problem.

I note that you won't engage in any sort of factual discussion. For example your spouting about the hocks on American dogs is pure bias - and holds no basis in fact. It's just another of your opinions that, like most of the rest of your stuff, it's just nonsense.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2013)

AlbertRoss said:


> For example your spouting about the hocks on American dogs is pure bias - and holds no basis in fact. It's just another of your opinions that, like most of the rest of your stuff, it's just nonsense.


Wait, are you saying American showline dogs aren't walking on their hocks?


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## Doodler (May 20, 2012)

Shrap said:


> Does your labradoodle come from 5+ generations of fully health tested dogs? Did the breeders look at the conformation of the dogs involved to make sure pups weren't going to be too straight in the rear as can be a problem with labs and some poodles? Or did they just stick 2 dogs together to cash in on the latest fashion for "healthier than pedigree" dogs.


No-one 'cashed in' on the purchase of our 'Doodle,we saw mum and dad,both fit and healthy as is Callie.We paid what we thought was reasonable given the costs of birthing,post natal care and initial vets bills for the puppies.

However,my point was aimed at OVER selective breeding to enhance some breeds more outstanding points. Buldogs faces and short legs,a dachsunds length,also surgery to remove tails or make ears stand up etc.

We are talking about Dogs as Pets,a companion--any breeding for financial gain or status is to me a bit sad.

eddie


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Doodler said:


> No-one 'cashed in' on the purchase of our 'Doodle,we saw mum and dad,both fit and healthy as is Callie.We paid what we thought was reasonable given the costs of birthing,post natal care and initial vets bills for the puppies.
> 
> However,my point was aimed at OVER selective breeding to enhance some breeds more outstanding points. Buldogs faces and short legs,a dachsunds length,also surgery to remove tails or make ears stand up etc.
> 
> ...


There is also something called *under* selective breeding, where people don't know enough to make informed decisions about breeding. Being fit and healthy, does not necessarily mean dogs will produce fit and healthy progeny, and part of that comes down to understanding conformation and how that affects a dogs ability to move/work without causing poor health, which is pretty much what this thread is about. Unfortunately, you're mistaken with your particular cross, they are prone to exactly the same type of problems as both parent breeds, hip dysplasia, elbow problems, stifle problems, not to mention other genetic conditions, which is why a *good* breeder will understand conformation, and will also use any health tests to ensure they produce healthy progeny. It's not just the cost of whelping, rearing pups etc, it's the time and effort that's gone into researching what you are most likely to get from the mating.

Tail shortening and ear cropping are not allowed for aesthetic reasons in the UK, the exception to that is that working dogs are still docked, depending on the breed, they will have the portion of their tail removed which is most prone to injury whilst working. We alter many animals to suit what we do with them, whether that's just to raise to eat, or for working, as long as it's done with the best interests of the animal at heart so that they live a healthy, injury free lifestyle, for me that's acceptable. It's not acceptable when it comes to altering an animal surgically for aesthetic reasons only.

There are a number of HPB's, of which I think the GSD is one, and whilst I'd agree it's not acceptable to breed a *type* of dog so that it becomes unhealthy due to conformation issues, I prefer that we try to breed away from these practices, which is not an easy or fast route. I'd also be one of the first to support out crossing to other gene pools, as long as it's done in an efficacious manner, there's no point leaping to introduce different *types* if it could fix one problem but cause another. And without any criticism of your dog, who I'm sure is lovely, it's hardly helped the world of pedigree breeds (which is probably not your aim in any case) or dogs as a whole, by producing this litter, although they may make lovely pets, what has that litter done in the grand scheme of dog breeding to ensure all our dogs are healthier individuals?

GSD's are not my breed, although I've enjoyed the debate, will go back to lurking now


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> Why not? You might just as well ask why so many UK kennels have had to import German dogs to 'improve' their dogs.


Deflecting? 
Are you seriously saying the dog pictured is in any way like horand or klodo?



AlbertRoss said:


> Because I refuse to get drawn into an argument or point scoring about individual dogs unless they are put up as being the 'top examples' of the breed. The campaign is about the breed in general not about any individual. If you want to make it that way that's your problem.


I can't understand why you would avoid giving yourself credibility? 



AlbertRoss said:


> I note that you won't engage in any sort of factual discussion. For example your spouting about the hocks on American dogs is pure bias - and holds no basis in fact. It's just another of your opinions that, like most of the rest of your stuff, it's just nonsense.


You're saying American Showline dogs are not extremely overangulated? You're saying the dog that has been imported by one of the main capaigners is not overangulated in the rear?


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

Shrap said:


> Dino says ribbit
> 
> Here is the website of the main campaigners for the split, they show pictures and talk about the kennels they would import from (US):
> 
> ...


terrible and i wouldna buy them! :frown2:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Most of the american showlines are awful. I have seen a few which breed for the minimum angulation that will allow their dogs to win in the showring while they focus on obedience trials more than conformation. Those unfortunately are the minority. Watch the Westminster breed judging videos of how they almost collapse into the stack when the handlers move their legs its horrible.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I will start by saying I haven't read the whole thread, and that I know naff all about KC and showing......what I _do_ know is from this forum, and from my friend who has a European champion dog....all that prevents her dog from being UK champion is her relative newness to the breed circle (and she's been told that by UK judges - they won't give it to someone who hasn't "done the time").

Booger the "standards" and all that....you want an English version that's healthy, you know what to do. Does any human allow a set of "standards" define who and what they are? Does a dog give a flying one about all this?

The whole thing from where I'm seeing it has nowt to do with the dogs, and little to do with the "standards". It's a slightly bizarre network of people giving each other pats on the back. Can't see what any of it has to do with dogs.

Best in show

It's a lunatic way of being around dogs


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## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

myshkin said:


> I will start by saying I haven't read the whole thread, and that I know naff all about KC and showing......what I _do_ know is from this forum, and from my friend who has a European champion dog....all that prevents her dog from being UK champion is her relative newness to the breed circle (and she's been told that by UK judges - they won't give it to someone who hasn't "done the time").
> 
> :


A good dog will win.
Yes there may be some dodgy judges but not all, it's way easier to make up a Champion virtually anywhere else in the World than in the UK, this is why a UK championship is so highly regarded.

I hear this tale so much about why people don't win .... Easily said, IME a fabulous worthy dog who is well handled will have the success it deserves.

I know lots of newcomers in various breeds who have been lucky enough to have fabulous first and second dogs ad done exceedingly well with them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JulieNoob said:


> A good dog will win.
> Yes there may be some dodgy judges but not all, it's way easier to make up a Champion virtually anywhere else in the World than in the UK, this is why a UK championship is so highly regarded.
> 
> I hear this tale so much about why people don't win .... Easily said, IME a fabulous worthy dog who is well handled will have the success it deserves.
> ...


That might be the case, but it takes a lot more work for some than others, showing is, unfortunately, corrupt to a certain degree, with people swapping tickets and placing dogs that are owned by people they know and like, rather than someone unknown. A good friend of mine who is a judge (neither of my breeds) chats with me about showing, and she is sick of all the way some people conduct themselves and doesn't show her dogs under certain judges because it's simply pointless for her. And I know plenty more with her point of view as well.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

It would be silly to say that there are not some judges who judge faces rather than dogs - people are people and the show world, like any other walk of life, is not perfect. But those judges tend to find they have low entries because everyone knows who they are going to place and just don't bother to waste their money entering.

However, that is not nearly as prevalent as some would make you believe - you *hear* about it a lot, but in many instances it's a case of sour grapes - people are using it as an excuse because they just cannot accept that their dog was beaten fairly and squarely by a better dog.

Myshkin - as for the Best in Show film, if you ever get chance to watch it all, it's hilarious - it really parodies the American (or is is Canadian? I forget now!) Show Scene, but in a gentle, friendly way. It's fiction, but it has captured the absurd extremities of showing perfectly.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ... showing is, unfortunately, corrupt to a certain degree, with people swapping tickets and placing dogs that are owned by people they know and like, rather than someone unknown.





Spellweaver said:


> It would be silly to say that there are not some judges who judge faces rather than dogs - people are people and the show world, like any other walk of life, is not perfect. But those judges tend to find they have low entries because everyone knows who they are going to place and just don't bother to waste their money entering.
> 
> However, that is not nearly as prevalent as some would make you believe - you *hear* about it a lot, but in many instances it's a case of sour grapes - people are using it as an excuse because they just cannot accept that their dog was beaten fairly and squarely by a better dog..


The research for the Alsatian Breed Campaign was meticulously conducted on a consultancy basis over a year. The person who did the research doesn't own a dog but interviewed a large number of people from both 'sides' of the GSD world. He also went to dog shows of both Open and Championship status.

One of his main findings was that the judging system in GSDs is either corrupt or 'arranged'. It's not on the website, because it's hard to prove, but it is blatantly obvious. As examples: 
A dog that was so down on its hocks that it could barely walk without the joint in the leg touching the ground was given Best of Breed at a Championship show. The judge and exhibitor were both committee members of the same club.
A breeder entering for the Breeders class was handed the certificate by the judge before he even had all his dogs in the ring to be judged.
A well known dog was made Best in Show after being entered in a show where the breed judge, the group judge and the best in show judge had all previously given the dog awards. The inference being that the dog was set up to win.

None of this is 'sour grapes' evidence - it was gathered from observation and available records. These example are just a few. There are many.

Some of this behaviour was observed by Kennel Club officials. Nothing was done. The judge at Crufts this year had to withdraw. A new judge was appointed. The entry for the GSD class has changed - almost completely. Why? Because the each judge was known to favour one 'type'. I could name the dog that is going to win the GSD breed now, simply because of the 'type'. The same dog almost certainly would not have won under the original judge.

It is true that most breeds have some level of judging practice problems. However, in the GSD world the levels are appalling.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> One of his main findings was that the judging system in GSDs is either corrupt or 'arranged'. It's not on the website, because it's hard to prove, but it is blatantly obvious. As examples:
> A dog that was so down on its hocks that it could barely walk without the joint in the leg touching the ground was given Best of Breed at a Championship show. The judge and exhibitor were both committee members of the same club.





Why is this hard to prove? A photo/video would have done admirably if the complaint is that the dog was not sound - and surely he would have not passed the independent vet test (unless you are trying to say the vet was in on the collusion too?) As for judges and exhibiotrs being on the same committee - that can work either way. I have seen exellent dogs not awarded CCs (when they should have been) because the judge and exhibitor were known to be friends.



AlbertRoss said:


> [*]A breeder entering for the Breeders class was handed the certificate by the judge before he even had all his dogs in the ring to be judged.


Again, not hard to prove - if that happened in the ring when I was there, there would have been a holy stink created *and* it would have been reported to KC before the ink was dry on the certificate. Why wasn't it in this case?



AlbertRoss said:


> [*]A well known dog was made Best in Show after being entered in a show where the breed judge, the group judge and the best in show judge had all previously given the dog awards. The inference being that the dog was set up to win.



And what is the difference between that and me thinking, "Ooooh, must do Border Union this year - the judge gave my dog 1st prize in the Open Stakes last time he went under her - and the group judge gave him second in open dog last time he went under him, and the BIS judge gave him 1st in the YKC stakes? None at all.



AlbertRoss said:


> None of this is 'sour grapes' evidence - it was gathered from observation and available records. These example are just a few. There are many. Some of this behaviour was observed by Kennel Club officials. Nothing was done.


The fact that nothing was done probably means that *was* sour grapes and that it *didn't* really happen. Anyone can start rumours, but the fact that the owner of the webpage didn't add them to the web page means that he, at least, knows the difference between truth and rumour.



AlbertRoss said:


> The judge at Crufts this year had to withdraw. A new judge was appointed. The entry for the GSD class has changed - almost completely. Why? Because the each judge was known to favour one 'type'.


But that happens in many breeds - it certainly happens in border collies - in fact it happened this year at LKA. There are two different head types in border collies and some judges favour one, whilst some judges favour others. The judge at LKA this year had to cancel and the replacement judge was known to favour the other head type - the change was fortunate for us because it went in our favour, but exhibitors with dogs of the other head type were disgruntled.



AlbertRoss said:


> I could name the dog that is going to win the GSD breed now, simply because of the 'type'. The same dog almost certainly would not have won under the original judge.


Go on then - put your money where your mouth is!


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Klodo is behind the AKC and British lines and the length of the body, deep chest and shorter legs came down through him along with teeth problems, along with weak temps, he was exported to the US the same year he was made seiger (If he had been that good they would have kept him ). To try and stop this trend MvS made up Herold aus der Neder lausitz in 1930, and said they should return to the older herding types but unfortunately this didnt work.
You can not import another breed GSD then register as an alternative breed the UK KC will not allow.
AlbertRoss or is it Philip? your campaign will get you know where.
The link you gave to pup did not win at the German Sieger get your facts correct. It was badly stood, incorrectly placed
This is a WGSL 
Cowboy - Ober von Bad Boll son photo taken at 15 month he works sheep daily and achieved his HGH before the age of 18month


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Why is this hard to prove? A photo/video would have done admirably if the complaint is that the dog was not sound - and surely he would have not passed the independent vet test (unless you are trying to say the vet was in on the collusion too?)


The vet test is only done at Championship shows where CCs are awarded to the breed. It is my understanding that the class wasn't given CCs at this particular champ show - so no vet test. You should also know that according to KC rules you may not take photos or videos of any one individual dog at a champ show without express permission of the owner. I believe a complaint against someone who did this and posted the resultant photo on Facebook has gone to the KC.



> Again, not hard to prove - if that happened in the ring when I was there, there would have been a holy stink created *and* it would have been reported to KC before the ink was dry on the certificate. Why wasn't it in this case?


The observer had no interest in doing so. He was there as a member of the public, not as an entrant or dog owner. His purpose was to gather information. He was, however, quite surprised that the KC representatives there didn't do anything. But he was told that they were there solely to make sure there was no double-handling.



> The fact that nothing was done probably means that *was* sour grapes and that it *didn't* really happen. Anyone can start rumours, but the fact that the owner of the webpage didn't add them to the web page means that he, at least, knows the difference between truth and rumour.


No, the fact is that unless one has cast iron proof e.g. there is a record of conversation between the two people witnessed by at least two others then it's just about impossible to prove. One incident where a complaint was made went to the KC with video evidence and witness statements from the steward and other competitors. The complaint was also made to the show secretary (as is required) who happened to be standing by the ring. The complaint was rejected due to 'lack of evidence'.



> But that happens in many breeds - it certainly happens in border collies - in fact it happened this year at LKA. There are two different head types in border collies and some judges favour one, whilst some judges favour others. The judge at LKA this year had to cancel and the replacement judge was known to favour the other head type - the change was fortunate for us because it went in our favour, but exhibitors with dogs of the other head type were disgruntled.


I know nothing of the breed standard for border collies. I have just read the part pertaining to heads and I can see that there _may_ be some room for interpretation over shape - but I don't know which 'type' is which so I won't comment. However, in the standard for the GSD one thing is perfectly clear - "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long". The operative word in that is straight. It cannot be 'interpreted' as being curved. The Germanic style dog has a curved (roach/banana) back. The English style has a straight back. Certainly, some individual dogs will have faults other than this but the absolute essence of the problem is contained within those words. So much so, that the founder of the breed wrote a book about what the dog should look like and was explicit that the dogs should have a straight back. Until the 1970s they did. The ONLY reason it got changed was the greed and manipulation of the two brothers that ran the German club that supervised the breed. As the campaign says, if people want to continue with that we are quite happy to let them do so. We, OTOH want a breed that looks like the dogs they are supposed to be not the dogs they have become.



> Go on then - put your money where your mouth is!


I'd love to - but I'd be in lots of trouble with the KC if I did. Why not ask Shrap? It's pretty much an open secret.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Ella vom Bietgraben won the BLH in 2012
this is her male line all WGSL dogs
Fosko vom Kirschental 
Logo von den Dolomiten 
Erasmus van Noort 
Yasko vom Farbenspiel 
Ursus von Batu 
Hobby vom Gletschertopf 
Jeck vom Noricum 
Odin vom Tannenmeise 
Quando von Arminius 
Xaver von Arminius 
Lasso di Val Sole 
Quanto von der Wienerau 
Condor vom Zollgrenzschutz-Haus 
Condor vom Schnapp 
Condor vom Hohenstamm 
Arko von der Delog 
Her show grading is V , unfortunately I cant currently find her picture on my pc her femaline line is all Kirschental (WGSL kennel)


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> The vet test is only done at Championship shows where CCs are awarded to the breed. It is my understanding that the class wasn't given CCs at this particular champ show - so no vet test


So no big deal then if there was no ticket to be given 



AlbertRoss said:


> The observer had no interest in doing so. He was there as a member of the public, not as an entrant or dog owner. His purpose was to gather information. He was, however, quite surprised that the KC representatives there didn't do anything. But he was told that they were there solely to make sure there was no double-handling.


Rubbish. Complaints would have been made from other competitors if this had happened, not by "an observer" trying to find things to cause trouble.



AlbertRoss said:


> However, in the standard for the GSD one thing is perfectly clear - "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long". The operative word in that is straight. It cannot be 'interpreted' as being curved. The Germanic style dog has a curved (roach/banana) back.


Sorry, I stopped reading here. If, despite every example Shrap has shown you to the contrary, you are still erroneously stating this, then there is no point in going further.



AlbertRoss said:


> I'd love to - but I'd be in lots of trouble with the KC if I did. Why not ask Shrap? It's pretty much an open secret.


Really? And which rule covers someone giving their opinion that a certain dog is probably going to get BOB? 99% of the spectators at Crufts would have to be reported under it if that were the case. :lol:

I know Shrap will know who is the favourite to win - she is very up on the breed. But that's not the point; my reason for asking you was to see if _you _were - which, by the way you have dodged out of answering the question, probably means you aren't.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

This is Eischa aus der Glockenbergsschaferei
She won the HGH class at the Sieger Show she also came 3rd in the BLH
Her sire is another WGSL dog Naxo vom Holtkamper See
her male line 
Naxos vom Holtkämper See 
Zamp vom Thermodos 
Quantum von Arminius 
Dux della Valcuvia 
Max della Loggia dei Mercanti 
Visum von Arminius 
again all WGSL dogs 
her female line is a mix of WGSL & WGWL

Again West German Showlines completing the job they were originaly bred for, she has previously won the BLH, obviously she has her HGH and works sheep daily 
How many of your Alsatians do that ????????? my guess is none lol


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Wildmoor said:


> Ella vom Bietgraben won the BLH in 2012
> this is her male line all WGSL dogs
> Fosko vom Kirschental
> Logo von den Dolomiten
> ...


I've said all this already, he ignored all of it. As did the person who said their conformation is wrong for herding


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> Klodo is behind the AKC and British lines and the length of the body, deep chest and shorter legs came down through him along with teeth problems, along with weak temps, he was exported to the US the same year he was made seiger (If he had been that good they would have kept him ). To try and stop this trend MvS made up Herold aus der Neder lausitz in 1930, and said they should return to the older herding types but unfortunately this didnt work.


Exactly how is Klodo behind British lines? He was sold to America to spread the breed there - not as you foolishly state "if he had been that good they would have kept him". If he wasn't the best for the year the von Stephanitz wouldn't have made him Sieger. Duh!



> You can not import another breed GSD then register as an alternative breed the UK KC will not allow.


Try again. There are a multitude of different breeds registered in other countries where either they have 2 breeds to our one or vice versa. The KC are quite happy to allow the import of dogs from apparently different breeds under that system.



> The link you gave to pup did not win at the German Sieger get your facts correct. It was badly stood, incorrectly placed


ROFL - I said, quite correctly that the dog pictured was a last year's Sieger. Her title -VV1(H)SIEGER 2012 Holly von Nord Wind. Irrespective of how it is stood it has a roached back. I merely picked one photo for the first dog labelled Sieger that I came across. I could have picked any of the German Siegers from the last 30 or so years. I could have picked British Siegers where photos are available. I could have picked a photo of the dog that went into the Crufts final (Elmo) - except that they never seem to want to see him photographed in a GSD stand. Lots of head shots - I've only ever seen one body shot. Why is that? Because he's got a banana back? It's certainly not straight.

Not ONE has a straight back. Anyone who claims otherwise is either in desperate need of a sight test or has totally swallowed the whole money making enterprise either in ignorance or because they have a vested interest.

I'll give you a simple heads up. The KC already recognise that there are two 'types' of GSD. They've said so to the press, to the campaign and even put it on their own website. If you hunt around the breeds registered around the world in many, many cases those 'types' become 'breeds'. We can wait - but it will happen.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Really? And which rule covers someone giving their opinion that a certain dog is probably going to get BOB? 99% of the spectators at Crufts would have to be reported under it if that were the case. :lol:
> 
> I know Shrap will know who is the favourite to win - she is very up on the breed. But that's not the point; my reason for asking you was to see if _you _were - which, by the way you have dodged out of answering the question, probably means you aren't.


Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if he was right, but I'm hoping for a different outcome!


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

You just show your ignorance about your own lines and other peoples
you realy need to learn about the breed, and not breed the epileptic corgis you do
*H* in brackets stands for Holland aka Netherlands not Germany 
let see Klodo sons were imported into the UK, if you have Alsatian then surely you know your own dogs lineage, if you have this type then no doubt dogs such as Avon Prince, Ludwig, Flicka, Swashbuckler in your dogs pedigrees if you do you have Klodo blood


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry, I stopped reading here. If, despite every example Shrap has shown you to the contrary, you are still erroneously stating this, then there is no point in going further.


Oh dear. That really is sad. If you can't accept the written standard for the dog and tell me that I'm erroneously stating it then perhaps you'd be better off airing your views where they might have some credence. I think CBeebies has a forum where you'll fit in nicely :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2013)

Isn't this the problem with so many breeds though? Focusing on ONE piece of the structure without looking at the entire picture? Isn't this trend what has gotten us in to the mess we are in with so many show-bred dogs?

Why the emphasis on JUST the dog's back? In many of the pictures posted, you can straighten out the back all you want and you'll still end up with a dog who looks nothing like what Max von Stephanitz intended. 

I don't see how splitting the breed based on straightness of the back is going to improve anything on either side of the split.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> The vet test is only done at Championship shows where CCs are awarded to the breed. It is my understanding that the class wasn't given CCs at this particular champ show - so no vet test.


Sorry but this is completely wrong! ALL BOB winners in the HPB at Champ shows are subject to a vet test regardless to wether they have CC's on offer or not


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> Oh dear. That really is sad. If you can't accept the written standard for the dog and tell me that I'm erroneously stating it then perhaps you'd be better off airing your views where they might have some credence. I think CBeebies has a forum where you'll fit in nicely :thumbup1:


Ah, the old, "I have no credible answer to the points you raised so I'll resort to personal attack" ploy! :lol: Your argument has just lost what little credence it had.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah, the old, "I have no credible answer to the points you raised so I'll resort to personal attack" ploy! :lol: Your argument has just lost what little credence it had.


No no, hun, he's allowed to say as he pleases


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## I own a zoo (Jul 5, 2012)

I have read through all of this thread, with great interest and would love to know both 'camps' opinion of this dog?


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah, the old, "I have no credible answer to the points you raised so I'll resort to personal attack" ploy! :lol: Your argument has just lost what little credence it had.


All you have to do is state whether or not you accept the KC standard. Unless you do everything you say (like this quote) is simply hot air.

It's a bit like your chum Wildmoor claiming that my dogs are "epileptic corgis". Nobody here knows anything about any of my dogs. Sadly, it's stupidity like that that loses any credibility to your side of the argument at all. Unfortunately, too many supporters of banana backs have been brainwashed into the idea that there is only one producer of Alsatian types of dog. They simply aren't aware that there are many other people who have been producing dogs to the standard by using imported dogs in order to try and produce dogs lacking in the deformity apparent in the majority of GSDs. To the best of my knowledge very few are using a particular line and if it is included in the pedigree it may be many generations back. All the breeders I'm aware of do the essential health tests before breeding and don't breed from dogs that score outside the acceptable levels. However, the simple fact is that none of the health tests have anything to do with conformation. And it's conformation that both the EU and the Kennel Club have an issue with. A major part of the campaign is involved with the fact that the proposed Alsatian dog doesn't have that conformation problem. The umbrella organisation for the Germanic GSDs OTOH has fought against the correction of conformation with everything it has.

One of the reasons this campaign has been formed is precisely to get away from the belief that it's all about one man. However, the campaign is quite clear - it's about the dog and the health of the dog. As the SV breeders won't accept that there's a conformation problem in the majority of the breed those of us that have dogs without that sort of problem are launching a campaign for a new breed. You can keep your sort of dogs under your name. It doesn't affect you.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Look Philip or who ever you are
You dont even know your own bloodlines otherwise you would not have said they did not have Klodo blood, you never answer anyones questions you credibility went out of the window long ago especialy regarding your stupid comments re the WGSLs I have posted pics in this thread that have correct toplines unlike your dippy backed dogs - I dont ever finish reading any of your posts because you just sprout the same cr** all the time just regurgitating all your rubbish how many like have you to your FB page lol 20+ and some of those are against and just liked so they could comment

if your dogs are so fantastic show us pictures with KC registered names and lets see how many epilepsy producers they have in their lines!


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> Look Philip or who ever you are
> You dont even know your own bloodlines otherwise you would not have said they did not have Klodo blood, you never answer anyones questions you credibility went out of the window long ago especialy regarding your stupid comments re the WGSLs I have posted pics in this thread that have correct toplines unlike your dippy backed dogs - I dont ever finish reading any of your posts because you just sprout the same cr** all the time just regurgitating all your rubbish how many like have you to your FB page lol 20+ and some of those are against and just liked so they could comment
> 
> if your dogs are so fantastic show us pictures with KC registered names and lets see how many epilepsy producers they have in their lines!


As you freely admit you have never seen my dogs calling them 'dippy backed' shows exactly how much credibility you have and deserve. That would be zero. It's just simple prejudice on your behalf. None of my dogs have backs other than correct to the KC standard. But I'm certainly not going to put photos up here for your silly sniping.

You have not shown me a picture of any dog with a correct topline according to the KC standard. And, according to you my dogs have Klodo blood. Really? So, every Shepherd in the UK has Klodo blood? What total and utter cr*p.

I believe the FB page administrator has noted the people who like and then unlike the FB page so that they can see what's going on. Sad cowards that don't have the courage of their convictions, aren't they? I guess you are among them. But, frankly, the campaign doesn't care. The page is there simply as an entry to the group and to allow people who support us to see the silly, childish arguments put up by the SV people who tend to make statements that are totally in their imagination. And they keep getting caught out. :biggrin:

However, our measure of people is those who actually sign up to the campaign on the campaign's website including several people who have SV dogs and are saying that the exaggeration has gone too far and they want the correct type back. Oh, and the people who have signed forms at dog shows. Isn't it strange that in the week since the campaign launched we have gathered more people to support us than can be found as members of the largest GSD breed club? Or that we've gathered people from around the world that believe in what we are doing? That's just one week. We've hardly started.

And, as I found out today, the SV are now requiring that dogs being hip scored in Germany now have to have their spines X-rayed too but refuse to say why. Nothing to do with the EU damning their conformation I'm sure. After all, the EU added the GSD to their at risk register in 2008 and the SV didn't start spinal X-rays until 2009. Must be a coincidence.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Again you utter total rubbish if you have the English show lines then you dog will have a dip behind the withers and again if the English showline they will have Klodo blood
if you wish to dispute this give their KC registered names
NO I am not one that as liked then unliked why the hell would i like a page that talks utter rubbish just stuff copied and pasted from around the net

my GSD has had his spine xrayed after an accident nothing wrong with his spine
have you had yours done or hip or elbows
what about the shoulder as that type are known for OCD shoulder which as a genetic base 
you seem to forget Philip I used to be a UK Club member 20+ yours ago so I know all about those lines and have kept a log of all 

I had a dog the last of your type the last I ever bought He was by Ch Mirabos Atlantic Breeze out of Lornaville Sweet Success - lets see whats in the lines and this is fact, bad hips, bad elbows, bad shoulders, cataracts epilepsy 

they went extreme - better in the previous 20 years before that when you had kennels such as Gregrise, Brittas, Vikkas - now they are just too small in height, too long, weak temps, too heavy, too inbred


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## Brainless (Dec 25, 2012)

I own a zoo said:


> I have read through all of this thread, with great interest and would love to know both 'camps' opinion of this dog?


Really like based on photo, though I'm no expert just Joe Public where this breed is concerned. To me it shows an animal of harmonious flowing lines.


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

Dingle said:


> Just my opinion but the banana backed GSD's appear to suffer & look very wrong


i have wot u describe as "banana backed gsds,n none of mine have suffered from any type of malfunction of the back,hips,legs,hocks etc.Most have lived in double figures,around the age of 12 yrs actually n have had 2 be pts from CANCER.I have at present a 10 yr. old bitch ,still being shown in veteran,who my vet says when she goes 4 general check ups ,now shes an OAP ,that she is in amazing condition,perfect weight,shape n very well muscled n sound.Many german type gsds r in such condition,but most owners r campaigning youngsters so leave them at home.


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

L/C said:


> I don't know much about this but my instinctive reaction would be that it would cause a narrowing of the gene pool and that isn't a brilliant idea. Taking small populations (in a scientific sense) and dividing them further is going to cause bottlenecks and potential issues.
> 
> Although if the two types aren't currently being inter-bred then I suppose this is already happening.


yes that will be a problem for them.If the KC were 2 consider this option it would cause chaos,as many of the english side of the breed are now using more animals that are either full german breeding or have german lines in their pedigree.I read that the new breed would be classed from looks ,not lines(heritage)


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?
> I don`t give a tinkers cuss about show titles - the system atm is all about fashion, not the good of the breed - although there are some rumblings of change.
> Flouncing off to form a separate group will only weaken the breed IMO.


No,its about there being hardly any general championship shows for alsatians to attend to qualify for crufts or to get the necessary awards to become a champion.U cant blame the KC as its the show societies themselves who select the judges n then apply to KC for confirmation.Over the last 10 yrs or so most societies have choosen judges who prefer a more german type judge ,even the all rounder judges n breed judges are coming over,now can u see why they want to create a "new breed".


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

nickarzia zeke davies said:


> are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.


most gsds will stand in the pose naturally when something takes their eye.To be truthful,in this natural stance both hind legs r not that far apart as when a handler is stacking them.


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

Wildmoor said:


> Klodo is behind the AKC and British lines and the length of the body, deep chest and shorter legs came down through him along with teeth problems, along with weak temps, he was exported to the US the same year he was made seiger (If he had been that good they would have kept him ). To try and stop this trend MvS made up Herold aus der Neder lausitz in 1930, and said they should return to the older herding types but unfortunately this didnt work.
> You can not import another breed GSD then register as an alternative breed the UK KC will not allow.
> AlbertRoss or is it Philip? your campaign will get you know where.
> The link you gave to pup did not win at the German Sieger get your facts correct. It was badly stood, incorrectly placed
> ...


 luv it hun,its carole s.Snap,Philip you,re on candid camera


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have only read the first few posts and the last few who seem to be illiterate or argumentative.

I was watching an old tv programme the other day and 2 police tracker 'alsatians'' came on. Only a quick glance of them but wow were they a different shape from todays dog. They had no slope whatsoever, completely straight backs. I think it was an early 80s programme so we are not even talking about all that long ago.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

noddi said:


> No,its about there being hardly any general championship shows for alsatians to attend ........Over the last 10 yrs or so most societies have choosen judges who prefer a more german type judge ,even the all rounder judges n breed judges are coming over,now can u see why they want to create a "new breed".


And the reason they do that? We've asked several club secretaries who have told us that if they knew what 'type' of judge they were getting beforehand they'd appoint 'Alsatian' types - but they don't know and can only go on the current list provided which doesn't differentiate. The KC have already recognised this and are moving, hopefully, to do something about it. BTW, we now have commitments from several shows that their next round of judges will be of the Alsatian type as we'll give them a list of judges that will truly judge to the standard.



Blitz said:


> I have only read the first few posts and the last few who seem to be illiterate or argumentative.
> 
> I was watching an old tv programme the other day and 2 police tracker 'alsatians'' came on. Only a quick glance of them but wow were they a different shape from todays dog. They had no slope whatsoever, completely straight backs. I think it was an early 80s programme so we are not even talking about all that long ago.


Absolutely. The major problem is that the 'Germans' all think that Alsatian types come from one kennel. They are oblivious to the real world where there's actually a growing number of breeders switching to Alsatian types. (And, just to be 100% clear, we are only using 'Alsatian' as a convenient name - we would rather use something else but there haven't been any sensible suggestions).

And, re your police dogs - there are an increasing number of forces that are now using Belgian Shepherds instead of German Shepherds because they can't get enough good dogs of the German type. There are other organisations that are also slowly dropping the GSD, for various reasons and the evidence for that will go to the Kennel Club as part of the argument. The difference between what we are doing and any attempt that did this before is that we are using hard, verifiable, evidence as opposed to the gushing drivel of those who refuse to even acknowledge that both the EU and the Kennel Club have said the main problem with the GSD is conformation. But, hey, if your dogs have poor hindquarters and bad hocks you would want to argue against improvements, wouldn't you? The GSD Council continually does.:yesnod:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> And, re your police dogs - there are an increasing number of forces that are now using Belgian Shepherds instead of German Shepherds because they can't get enough good dogs of the German type. There are other organisations that are also slowly dropping the GSD, for various reasons and the evidence for that will go to the Kennel Club as part of the argument. The difference between what we are doing and any attempt that did this before is that we are using hard, verifiable, evidence as opposed to the gushing drivel of those who refuse to even acknowledge that both the EU and the Kennel Club have said the main problem with the GSD is conformation. But, hey, if your dogs have poor hindquarters and bad hocks you would want to argue against improvements, wouldn't you? The GSD Council continually does.:yesnod:


I am not pro or anti anything except those awful dogs that are sitting on their hocks but I am not getting involved in that just stating facts.

I had a GSD in the late 80s and I understood then that the German lines were the ones to go to for a more solid better conformation dog but everything I am reading on here seems to be the opposite. he was virtually all German breeding and was a large solid dog with just the merest slope and with a very sound temperament. Temperament seemed to be a huge problem in the 70s/80s with a lot of dogs so nervous that they were in a sorry state and a lot became very aggressive because they were scared of their own shadow.

My sister has had several GSDs as guide dogs and they seem to have a very short life due to their hips which is so sad. Her current one is 6 and has reached the end of its career and she has had ones younger than that.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> you seem to forget Philip I used to be a UK Club member 20+ yours ago so I know all about those lines and have kept a log of all


Whoopee! Get a grip. What you fail to grasp is that this isn't about the UK Club. They have no input, control or voice in this. But the usual wafflers go on and on believing if they say it enough it'll be true. It isn't. A large percentage of the UK club have walked away from it and set up on their own because they don't like the one man domination of it - but you should already know that. There's a good number of people that have never been, nor want to be, members of either side's 'club'. But, unlike those people who are in it for themselves, we are in it for the breed.

Try and get your head round the fact that the Alsatian type of dog is not controlled by one man or one kennel. The idiots that keep making point scoring types of remarks all seem to be aimed at a target that has nothing to do with this campaign.


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I am not pro or anti anything except those awful dogs that are sitting on their hocks but I am not getting involved in that just stating facts.
> 
> I had a GSD in the late 80s and I understood then that the German lines were the ones to go to for a more solid better conformation dog but everything I am reading on here seems to be the opposite. he was virtually all German breeding and was a large solid dog with just the merest slope and with a very sound temperament. Temperament seemed to be a huge problem in the 70s/80s with a lot of dogs so nervous that they were in a sorry state and a lot became very aggressive because they were scared of their own shadow.
> 
> My sister has had several GSDs as guide dogs and they seem to have a very short life due to their hips which is so sad. Her current one is 6 and has reached the end of its career and she has had ones younger than that.


Yep, the German line dogs of the 80s were very different from those of today. There were some with roached and excessively sloping backlines but on the whole they were not too exaggerated.

At that time there was a greater type difference between the German and Alsatian type but the modern German type has now tended towards long and heavy proportions and over angulation, in line with the Alsatian. The difference in topline is where they have diverged even more.

The most startling change though is in movement. The modern German showline typically has an inefficient gait where overangulation and crouching rear has predisposed to sickle hocks, over extension and pounding on the forehand. All faults that will impact on joints and reduce efficiency.

As someone has already commented - AR I think - the focus on drive in the rear is based on a mistaken belief that this is where all the power originates. That is now known to be incorrect. A dog needs to drive when he is accelerating or pulling and this is one reason why we see so much pulling in the ring today. It's not how a dog moves when working, at least no more than in short spurts.

I find it very sad, remembering the beautiful moving dogs we had in the 80s. On reflection, they were a tad exaggerated in terms of working efficiency but they were sound!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

The temperamentally unsound dogs of the 70s/ 80s came about because they were being used as guard dogs - so were being bred for that. Anyone who has had a GSD knows they are big jessies and if feeling anxious they will kick off. They became the ubiquitous scrapyard dogs, left to run in fenced enclosures. 
Then the law was changed to make it illegal to have a Guard Dog without a handler - and there was a scramble to breed dogs who were less timid and more co-operative. 
It had little to do with nationality.

To improve the frog dog thing I would ban the `show stance`. That would mean the dog would not be crouched when shown and you could see the true lines. It would then stop people breeding for that dreadful squat that looks like a bitch piddling.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> To improve the frog dog thing I would ban the `show stance`. That would mean the dog would not be crouched when shown and you could see the true lines. It would then stop people breeding for that dreadful squat that looks like a bitch piddling.


Indeed. I've never been able to understand why the GSD is the only dog that doesn't stand foursquare when being examined. It does seem, to be fair, that many dogs adopt a version of the show 'stack' when their attention is caught. I think the stack was an attempt to make things equal across all dogs.

However, the hump back is unnatural. There really are very, very few mammals that exhibit it in a natural state so to breed it in seems simply perverse. OTOH if you are running the 'governing' dog club and that's the kind of dog you have, you might want to tell everyone it's how it should be.


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> The temperamentally unsound dogs of the 70s/ 80s came about because they were being used as guard dogs - so were being bred for that. Anyone who has had a GSD knows they are big jessies and if feeling anxious they will kick off. They became the ubiquitous scrapyard dogs, left to run in fenced enclosures.
> Then the law was changed to make it illegal to have a Guard Dog without a handler - and there was a scramble to breed dogs who were less timid and more co-operative.
> It had little to do with nationality.
> 
> To improve the frog dog thing I would ban the `show stance`. That would mean the dog would not be crouched when shown and you could see the true lines. It would then stop people breeding for that dreadful squat that looks like a bitch piddling.


Now Claire,thats a brilliant idea,BUT its getting the peeps 2 agree.I get asked quite a lot at shows WHY gsds arent stood 4 sq.as the other breeds.I came into the breed 1987 n that was the show stance even then.Must admit some of the more experienced handlers DO try n get the animal free standing but 2 be honest most of the german type animals 2 taught from very small pups 2 pull hard into the collar etc.while the more english have theirs running alongside,which 2 me is so much better,no pulling distorting topline nor making hocks/elbows throw out.That in my opinion would go a long way 2 show that the majority of german type DO have a straight topline.Mine certainly does on the move n when she free stands on her own,in show stance,dependant on who,s handling her,her topline can look curved more than it should.I said many a time ,one SHOULDNT judge a dog just from a photo,c it in the flesh n then make a judgement.


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

AlbertRoss said:


> Indeed. I've never been able to understand why the GSD is the only dog that doesn't stand foursquare when being examined. It does seem, to be fair, that many dogs adopt a version of the show 'stack' when their attention is caught. I think the stack was an attempt to make things equal across all dogs.
> 
> However, the hump back is unnatural. There really are very, very few mammals that exhibit it in a natural state so to breed it in seems simply perverse. OTOH if you are running the 'governing' dog club and that's the kind of dog you have, you might want to tell everyone it's how it should be.


Philip,may i ask u a simple question,wot gsd shows u have attended or is your observation from photos?I DO agree that there is small minority of animals on BOTH sides that are extreme,as per the photo u mentioned in an earlier thread(english animal NOT the german dog,who in fact was owned by said photographer.)The english dog just happened 2 b in the photo too.


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

noddi said:


> Now Claire,thats a brilliant idea,BUT its getting the peeps 2 agree.I get asked quite a lot at shows WHY gsds arent stood 4 sq.as the other breeds.I came into the breed 1987 n that was the show stance even then.Must admit some of the more experienced handlers DO try n get the animal free standing but 2 be honest most of the german type animals 2 taught from very small pups 2 pull hard into the collar etc.while the more english have theirs running alongside,which 2 me is so much better,no pulling distorting topline nor making hocks/elbows throw out.That in my opinion would go a long way 2 show that the majority of german type DO have a straight topline.Mine certainly does on the move n when she free stands on her own,in show stance,dependant on who,s handling her,her topline can look curved more than it should.I said many a time ,one SHOULDNT judge a dog just from a photo,c it in the flesh n then make a judgement.


I've been around the GSD rings since the late 60s and the split hindquarter stance has been used throughout the breed's existence in the UK showring AFAIK and no doubt before that in Germany, as photos will confirm.

It's much more comfortable for the dog when there is excessive angulation, particularly with today's crouching tendency but not when it's taken to extreme ie the forward leg brought well under the body. A dog wouldn't naturally stand that way. But that's the result of fashion. In the 80s, handlers tended to let them stand more naturally, often letting them walk into their own position. Of course then, the extreme slope wasn't desirable and that type of handling did give much less slope.

As for the roach, the spine of a dog is S shaped. The straight line that we see in many breeds is a result of selection for Spinous Processes that level out to form a straight line. There is a natural dip behind the withers as the SPs change direction, then a slight rise over the loin. The spine is and should be flexible, so that the rise over the loin can emphasize or staighten and this is where the German type GSD is different from other breeds. This emphasis has been taken to extreme, often with an apex forming to assist this drop off to the rear. This is why some dogs can look quite normal gaiting on a loose lead but when pulling, or placed in an unatural stance, the weakness in the spine allows too much curve in the back.


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

pod said:


> I've been around the GSD rings since the late 60s and the split hindquarter stance has been used throughout the breed's existence in the UK showring AFAIK and no doubt before that in Germany, as photos will confirm.
> 
> It's much more comfortable for the dog when there is excessive angulation, particularly with today's crouching tendency but not when it's taken to extreme ie the forward leg brought well under the body. A dog wouldn't naturally stand that way. But that's the result of fashion. In the 80s, handlers tended to let them stand more naturally, often letting them walk into their own position. Of course then, the extreme slope wasn't desirable and that type of handling did give much less slope.
> 
> As for the roach, the spine of a dog is S shaped. The straight line that we see in many breeds is a result of selection for Spinous Processes that level out to form a straight line. There is a natural dip behind the withers as the SPs change direction, then a slight rise over the loin. The spine is and should be flexible, so that the rise over the loin can emphasize or staighten and this is where the German type GSD is different from other breeds. This emphasis has been taken to extreme, often with an apex forming to assist this drop off to the rear. This is why some dogs can look quite normal gaiting on a loose lead but when pulling, or placed in an unatural stance, the weakness in the spine allows too much curve in the back.


interesting reading POD,my bitch is now 10 yrs(dob.2/12/2002) n must admit she is very fidgetty in the ring when stacked by handlers,but funnily enuf in Dec(9th)i think,i entered a show at maidstone kent(german judge but didnt turn up)so had working/pastoral grp.judge .A young inexperienced young girl took my girlie in ,n 4 once she didnt seem 2 fidget????,she didnt stand her as per the handlers at normal shows.Maybe u have a valid point here.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

None of the pictures I have posted have a 'hump back' Philip

for others please see back
and here is another WGSL youth Sieger at the World Show 2006 in stance and the ones jumping was taken on his 7th birthday 

Idol Wolfgang 100% WGSL


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

Wildmoor said:


> None of the pictures I have posted have a 'hump back' Philip
> 
> for others please see back
> and here is another WGSL youth Sieger at the World Show 2006 in stance and the ones jumping was taken on his 7th birthday
> ...


Wildmoor, I don't think anyone is claiming that all German showline dogs are roach backed with excessive slope, it's just the ever increasing tendency towards this that is taking over the showring. This doesn't mean that there are no dogs from the same bloodlines with less exaggeration.

And as I've explained above, a normal backline in a still photo could be roached in a different pose or whilst pulling. It's the weakness in the spine that allows over flexibility.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Philips is, he presumes they all have weak hocks, poor angulation, according to him the previous pictures I posted of the HGH dogs dont fit the KC standard, at least these are fit for purpose and still continue with the original function of the breed, even though they are WGSL or predominately as Eischa is. I would like to know out of all those that slate the WGSL how many have been to the SV Sieger Show where there are thousands of GSDs on show over the 3 days? or are they just going off photographs and a handful of dogs they may have seen?
How many 'Alsatian' types still work flocks on a daily basis?


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

Wildmoor said:


> Philips is, he presumes they all have weak hocks, poor angulation, according to him the previous pictures I posted of the HGH dogs dont fit the KC standard, at least these are fit for purpose and still continue with the original function of the breed, even though they are WGSL or predominately as Eischa is. I would like to know out of all those that slate the WGSL how many have been to the SV Sieger Show where there are thousands of GSDs on show over the 3 days? or are they just going off photographs and a handful of dogs they may have seen?
> How many 'Alsatian' types still work flocks on a daily basis?


I haven't been to a Sieger since the late 80s but I have recently seen German imports including a Sieger dog. There are also many good videos of the Sieger show online. The type exhibited in Germany is very much the same as German showline in the UK now, just as it was back in the 80s. They are after all, from the same bloodlines.


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## nickarzia zeke davies (Dec 31, 2012)

i met up with me mate last saturday and were am discussing banana backs and straight backs. hes a expert on alsatians and his comment. banana backs are german shepherds and not desired. alsatians of england, ireland, scotland and wales as straighter backs are desired as the better breed of the two.

so i go for straight back alsatians not banana back german shepherds! so i shall continue to call me dogs alsatians not gsds


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## catsandcanines (Dec 9, 2010)

noddi said:


> most gsds will stand in the pose naturally when something takes their eye.To be truthful,in this natural stance both hind legs r not that far apart as when a handler is stacking them.


Sadie does it without thinking, sometimes its more pronounced. I took a picture when she was a youngster. She does have the sloping back but her hips are fine at the age of 10










Her dad is German and her mum is English. She had good hips too but sadly died of cancer. I have no clue about showing dogs but her mum was a show dog: Antilli German Shepherds - breeder of top quality German Shepherds.

This is her dad Enzo: http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/gallerypictures/35599.jpg


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

catsandcanines said:


> Sadie does it without thinking, sometimes its more pronounced. I took a picture when she was a youngster. She does have the sloping back but her hips are fine at the age of 10
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry but imho.this is NOT avery good photo at all n the backline does NOT appear 2 be correct.the front feet r not in correct position n the photo has been taken at the wrong angle.TBH.my girlie,s backline can n does at times look like ENZO,S when stacked but NOT when she stands naturally,then she only has a minimal slope (as in standard ,falling slightly in a STRAIGHT line)from withers 2 croup,tho i presume AR(PK)WOULD NOT agree.


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## catsandcanines (Dec 9, 2010)

noddi said:


> Sorry but imho.this is NOT avery good photo at all n the backline does NOT appear 2 be correct.the front feet r not in correct position n the photo has been taken at the wrong angle.TBH.my girlie,s backline can n does at times look like ENZO,S when stacked but NOT when she stands naturally,then she only has a minimal slope (as in standard ,falling slightly in a STRAIGHT line)from withers 2 croup,tho i presume AR(PK)WOULD NOT agree.


Its not meant to be a professional show stance. She doesn't do shows and was just looking up at a plane?? When you said _*"most gsds will stand in the pose naturally when something takes their eye."*_ I thought ohh Sadie does that sometimes. She naturally puts one leg back. She (and me) wouldn't know a proper stack (show stance as I call it ??) if it jumped up and bit us on the behind 

Her parents were show dogs but Sadie is not a show dog. She hasn't a clue and neither do I LOL


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Shrap said:


> I've said all this already, he ignored all of it. As did the person who said their conformation is wrong for herding


I'm guessing that's me, but fortunately Pod has cleared that up for you.


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## noddi (Jan 21, 2013)

catsandcanines said:


> Its not meant to be a professional show stance. She doesn't do shows and was just looking up at a plane?? When you said _*"most gsds will stand in the pose naturally when something takes their eye."*_ I thought ohh Sadie does that sometimes. She naturally puts one leg back. She (and me) wouldn't know a proper stack (show stance as I call it ??) if it jumped up and bit us on the behind
> 
> Her parents were show dogs but Sadie is not a show dog. She hasn't a clue and neither do I LOL


I didnt mean 2 b rude but thats the point,BAD PHOTOS GIVE THE WRONG IMPRESSION of said dog.I apologise 4 upsetting u,i know Carol n ALyson n of their gsds.BTW hope 2 meet u at the puppy event n i,ll say sorry 2 u personally.I,ll be manning the I.D.tent.Believe me Albert will probably rip it 2 pieces,so if he does just ignore him.My comment was the photo,not the dog.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

catsandcanines said:


> Her parents were show dogs but Sadie is not a show dog. She hasn't a clue and neither do I LOL


I don't care whether or not she's a show dog. Take your photo at the right angle next time and make sure you're standing up straight when you do it


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## catsandcanines (Dec 9, 2010)

noddi said:


> I didnt mean 2 b rude but thats the point,BAD PHOTOS GIVE THE WRONG IMPRESSION of said dog.I apologise 4 upsetting u,i know Carol n ALyson n of their gsds.BTW hope 2 meet u at the puppy event n i,ll say sorry 2 u personally.I,ll be manning the I.D.tent.Believe me Albert will probably rip it 2 pieces,so if he does just ignore him.My comment was the photo,not the dog.


You didn't upset me. Thats why I put the smiley and LOL - don't worry.


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## catsandcanines (Dec 9, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> I don't care whether or not she's a show dog. Take your photo at the right angle next time and make sure you're standing up straight when you do it


:yesnod: Will do


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

nickarzia zeke davies said:


> i met up with me mate last saturday and were am discussing banana backs and straight backs. hes a expert on alsatians and his comment. banana backs are german shepherds and not desired. alsatians of england, ireland, scotland and wales as straighter backs are desired as the better breed of the two.
> 
> so i go for straight back alsatians not banana back german shepherds! so i shall continue to call me dogs alsatians not gsds


all I can say he is no expert lol, he obviously hasnt a clue - so much missconceptions around


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## S_Rollo (Oct 1, 2010)

The kc should start thinking of the health of breeds and also they should be judged properly. I am not a fan of pedigrees (i am not against them either) because we are just breeding unhealthy dogs. Take the bulldog as a prime example a gorgeous dog but it has so many unnecesary health issues caused by us!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

S_Rollo said:


> The kc should start thinking of the health of breeds and also they should be judged properly. I am not a fan of pedigrees (i am not against them either) because we are just breeding unhealthy dogs. Take the bulldog as a prime example a gorgeous dog but it has so many unnecesary health issues caused by us!


Sorry, but that's a real sweeping generalisation with no factual evidence. You might think bulldogs are unhealthy, but how on earth can you say that all non KC registered dogs, are unhealthier overall? It simply isn't true, and there are lots of breeders of KC registered dogs that go to great lengths, expense and heartache to try and produce healthy KC pedigree dogs. There are good and bad on both sides of the fence, a bit like the DDA legislation, you can't pigeon hole breeders just because they breed KC recognised/registered breeds or not, judge the actions and the outcome, not just the *type* of dog they're breeding.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

And, bulldogs have bugger all to do with GSDs.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

S_Rollo said:


> The kc should start thinking of the health of breeds and also they should be judged properly. I am not a fan of pedigrees (i am not against them either) because we are just breeding unhealthy dogs. Take the bulldog as a prime example a gorgeous dog but it has so many unnecesary health issues caused by us!


As others have said, this is a massive sweeping statement. Bulldogs have nothing to do with GSD. Also, there are many Bulldogs being bred by very dedicated people that live to 13, run like the wind, give birth naturally, and have no trouble breathing. Badly breed Bulldogs, just as like all badly breed dogs, pedigree or other wise, are at risk of ill health. Puppy buyers need to be supporting only those best breeders. Without any demand, the supply from back yard breeders would decrease and all you'd be left with dogs produced for health, temperament, type and to better the breed.


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