# Red sex-linked gene & Longhair



## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

First off I'm not planning on starting breeding, Vivi is very much neutered! But I love these two breeds and am really interested in the subject. I'm planning to email Vivi's breeder just for some insight, but wanted to make sure I understood it first! Also I would be keen to get a show quality Somali next and just want to get my head around the genetics/colouring. 

At Supreme I had a discussion with a Somali breeder about colouring in Somalis and Abyssinians, there was some confusion when I mentioned that I had a Red Silver Aby and he asked me if I meant Sorrel, which is called Red in USA (and probably in a few other places as well). In fact Vivi isn't Sorrel, instead he is Red via the orange sex-linked gene, but Red, or the dilute Cream, Somalis are very rare, I'm not if there are any in the UK at the moment. However the Red/Cream colouring is mentioned in plenty of Somali literature and breeder websites. Red/Cream in Abyssinian is still in the provisional stages of GCCF right now. Currently there are only a few Red/Cream Abyssinian breeders in the UK.

This all got me thinking how Red/Cream Somalis would have appeared and how to expand the gene pool. Would I be right in thinking that you could get Red by breeding a Non Red Male x Tortoiseshell Female? Would this be only way to get a Red without breeding with a Red or Cream? Also I assume this would be quite a rare occurrence and that most of the time it would produce Non Red Males/Tortoiseshell Female/None Red Female?

I'm guessing that the best way to expand the gene pool and increase the chance of red kittens would be to breed in with a Red/Cream Aby? For example a Red Male Aby with a Tortoiseshell Girl Somali could produce Red females and males? The main problem would be finding a Red/Cream Aby with the longhair recessive gene. Would I be correct in thinking that with shorthair being dominant the Aby would need to have a recessive longhair gene in order for the kittens to carry the longhair gene? Also that it would take two generations for this to appear or could it appear first generation? If someone was to breed the following for example:

Male Red Aby (carrying longhair)
O(O), Ll

Female Tortie Somali
Oo, ll

This all makes my head hurt and I'm sure some of you very knowledgeable breeders will be able to help make this all a bit clearer! Am I complete off or heading along the right lines? I'd just like to be able to chat to breeders without feeling like a numpty...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If 2 SH cats carry the LH gene, then you could get LH kittens in the first generation. If only one cat carries, then there's no chance of LH. There's only a 25% of LH kittens even with 2 carriers, and even if you bred a LH to a SH carrying LH, the percentage of LH is only 50%.

You could get red boys by breeding a tortie to a black series male, but never any girls. The only way you can get red girls is if daddy is red too. So you could do tortie to black silver, keep a red boy, then do red boy to tortie mum and get red girls.

Hope this helps.


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

carly87 said:


> If 2 SH cats carry the LH gene, then you could get LH kittens in the first generation. If only one cat carries, then there's no chance of LH. There's only a 25% of LH kittens even with 2 carriers, and even if you bred a LH to a SH carrying LH, the percentage of LH is only 50%.
> 
> You could get red boys by breeding a tortie to a black series male, but never any girls. The only way you can get red girls is if daddy is red too. So you could do tortie to black silver, keep a red boy, then do red boy to tortie mum and get red girls.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks for this Carly!

It is possible to test for to see if a SH cat has the recessive LH gene? Also if a LH is bred with a SH (not carrying), would any SH kittens carry the LH gene? Would it make a difference if the SH parent carried the LH gene? Is there a way to work out the likelihood of getting Red kittens from a red dad x tortie mum? Or is it more like pot luck?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get my head around it all!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There are reliable gene tests for LH and base colour - black, chocolate, cinnamon (sorrel). So no need to be guessing on that front.

If you breed LH with SH (not carrying) ALL kittens will carry LH.

Red kittens from red male x tortie female are 50/50 for red / not red (males) and red / tortie (female).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

A LH bred to a SH (not carrying) will result in 100% SH all carrying the LH gene.



> Is there a way to work out the likelihood of getting Red kittens from a red dad x tortie mum? Or is it more like pot luck?


It's easy to work out the statistical probability but that isn't the mix you end up with in a litter, that does tend to be more pot luck litter by litter though if you had enough kittens (hundreds) the numbers would come good in the end.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

It is possible to test for the longhair gene in abyssinians. The Somalis were developed from abyssinians who carried longhair. I don't know if there have been any efforts to eliminate the gene from abyssinians but I think you would find it hard to discover any carriers even if they do exist. 

All shorthair offspring with one longhair parent will carry the longhair gene. If the shorthair parent has a longhair gene every kitten from the mating has an equal chance of inheriting either the longhair or the shorthair gene. A kitten with two longhair genes has longhair.

The only way to be sure of red or cream is to breed red to red or the dilute form. To get a red boy the dam must have a red gene. If she has two red genes the boy will definitely be red. If the dam is tortie, she will either pass on her non-red gene (non-red boy) or her red gene (red boy.) To be sure of getting a red girl the sire must be red and the dam must be red (all red girls.) A tortie dam will either pass on her red gene (red girl) or her non-red gene (tortie girl.)

Sorry this reply is so long but it is quite difficult to explain briefly.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Sorry this reply is so long but it is quite difficult to explain briefly.


^^^^^^
So true


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## Reets (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't understand the genetics at all, and our Somali queens (now at Rainbow Bridge, sadly) were retired and neutered before they came to us, but I do know that Rosie (who was sorrel silver tortie) had red boys - I remember her breeder telling us that they were a very bright red, very different from the sorrels.


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

Thanks everyone it's starting to make sense!



QOTN said:


> It is possible to test for the longhair gene in abyssinians. The Somalis were developed from abyssinians who carried longhair. I don't know if there have been any efforts to eliminate the gene from abyssinians but I think you would find it hard to discover any carriers even if they do exist.


I think due to Somalis often being outcrossed by Abyssinians there are actually a number of short haired Somalis in the breeding programme (SH carrying LH). Short haired Somalis have now also been recognised by the GCCF. As mentioned in the Somali Breed Advisory Committee's Breeding Policy document, short haired cats are kept in the breeding programme to retain the soft fine coat texture expected in long hair Somalis. 


> The Somali Breed Advisory Committee advises breeders should always mate shorthaired Somalis to a semi-longhaired Somali to retain the soft, fine texture of the Somali coat, an important feature of the breed.


In case anyone wants a nose: http://www.somalibac.co.uk/documents/somalibreedpol.pdf



Reets said:


> I don't understand the genetics at all, and our Somali queens (now at Rainbow Bridge, sadly) were retired and neutered before they came to us, but I do know that Rosie (who was sorrel silver tortie) had red boys - I remember her breeder telling us that they were a very bright red, very different from the sorrels.


Yes I would definitely say Red is more more red/orange, while Sorrel is more of a brown/red. I imagine the first Red or Cream came about by accident via a tortie queen at some point! Do you know what their prefix was?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I think the policy isn't that clear and its the sh cats the should always be bred to lh, lh to lh is fine.

Also most (all?) other breeds use cinnamon where there use sorrel or red (depending on registry) and that might help with the difference in the colour.


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## Reets (Feb 19, 2014)

alixtaylor said:


> Yes I would definitely say Red is more more red/orange, while Sorrel is more of a brown/red. I imagine the first Red or Cream came about by accident via a tortie queen at some point! Do you know what their prefix was?


Amber (Rosie's mother) was Learoyd Amber, she was the foundation queen for Makeitso. Amber came from a primarily Aby breeder in Harpenden, her mother was a variant. Rosie was Amber's daughter and her pedigree name was Makeitso Apricot Rose.

We had one of the first 100 Somalis in the country, back in 1983/4, her name was Tanoshimi Bel Amie, and the boy we lost last year (Bruno to us) was Leoncini Sesto.

Bel we bought as a kitten, and bred two pedigree litters from her, but Amber and Rosie were re-homes as they (Amber, I think) was not getting on with the other cats in the household, and Bruno was also a re-home, as his human mum had died and her husband was not really a cat person. He looked after Bruno superbly but felt he would be better in a home with cat lovers, so he came to us. And love him we most certainly did.


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I think the policy isn't that clear and its the sh cats the should always be bred to lh, lh to lh is fine.
> 
> Also most (all?) other breeds use cinnamon where there use sorrel or red (depending on registry) and that might help with the difference in the colour.


I think it's meant to be more of a recommendation then completely clear cut, but it might mean an increase in SH Somali breeders, especially if kittens can be registered now.

Thanks for the Cinnamon tip!



Reets said:


> Amber (Rosie's mother) was Learoyd Amber, she was the foundation queen for Makeitso. Amber came from a primarily Aby breeder in Harpenden, her mother was a variant. Rosie was Amber's daughter and her pedigree name was Makeitso Apricot Rose.
> 
> We had one of the first 100 Somalis in the country, back in 1983/4, her name was Tanoshimi Bel Amie, and the boy we lost last year (Bruno to us) was Leoncini Sesto.
> 
> Bel we bought as a kitten, and bred two pedigree litters from her, but Amber and Rosie were re-homes as they (Amber, I think) was not getting on with the other cats in the household, and Bruno was also a re-home, as his human mum had died and her husband was not really a cat person. He looked after Bruno superbly but felt he would be better in a home with cat lovers, so he came to us. And love him we most certainly did.


This is amazing! I did a quick google and Makeitso pops up in various generations of some of the current Somali breeders. It looks as though they they bred Abys as well. Lovely picture of all the Somalis you mentioned on their old website (apart from Bruno): Makeitso Somalis - Breeders of Somalis in the UK. Some gorgeous colouring, do you know what colour they were each registered as?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Shorthair Somalis were granted championship status in June. Shorthair somalis should be bred to longhair somalis. Offspring of any shorthair to shorthair or shorthair to abys will be reference register and not eligible to be shown.


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

Interesting thread. Genetics make my head hurt but I have a red Somali boy. He's "just" a pet (nothing "just" about my boy really!) and he's almost 9 years old but I think mum was a tortie and dad a usual.


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Shorthair Somalis were granted championship status in June. Shorthair somalis should be bred to longhair somalis. Offspring of any shorthair to shorthair or shorthair to abys will be reference register and not eligible to be shown.


This makes sense. If for example someone bred Aby to LH Somali, could any LH kittens be registered as Somalis and SH as SH Somali? Or would they need to be further generations away from their Aby parent?



urbantigers said:


> Interesting thread. Genetics make my head hurt but I have a red Somali boy. He's "just" a pet (nothing "just" about my boy really!) and he's almost 9 years old but I think mum was a tortie and dad a usual.


My Red Silver Aby is the same, a lovely pet boy who we are completely besotted with. Would you mind me asking the breeder prefix? Always interested in those with red lines. Did they breed reds at all or just tortie? Not that tortie isn't equally gorgeous!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Oh, dear me!

All this science is making me dizzy. And thirsty. Thirsty for gin . . .


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I am afraid I am not connected with the somali breed so can only read the registration policy and I know from experience of the BAC for my own breeds how easy it is to think every eventuality has been covered when it has not. 

As I read it, a shorthair somali from a longhair to an aby would be registered CSSR. I think the example of a longhair from an aby is hypothetical since, as I said before, I don't know if aby breeders have made attempts to eliminate the longhair markers from their cats.

If you need to know, I recommend you approach either a specialist club or the BAC for clarification. 

Although this registraton policy was taken from the GCCF website, it is out of date since it mentions provisional status cats and this level was abolished in 2013.


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

alixtaylor said:


> My Red Silver Aby is the same, a lovely pet boy who we are completely besotted with. Would you mind me asking the breeder prefix? Always interested in those with red lines. Did they breed reds at all or just tortie? Not that tortie isn't equally gorgeous!


My boy was in the first litter from the breeder so has an admin prefix - he is Advish Hobgoblin. Parents are Stacym nortiebutnice (chocolate tortie) and Emanan Geronimo (usual)


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

QOTN said:


> I am afraid I am not connected with the somali breed so can only read the registration policy and I know from experience of the BAC for my own breeds how easy it is to think every eventuality has been covered when it has not.
> 
> As I read it, a shorthair somali from a longhair to an aby would be registered CSSR. I think the example of a longhair from an aby is hypothetical since, as I said before, I don't know if aby breeders have made attempts to eliminate the longhair markers from their cats.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this, I'll definitely look further into it via GCCF and the Somali BAC. From what I can tell from earlier discussions in the thread a SH Aby not carrying the LH gene could still result in LH kittens if bred with a LH Somali, so the Aby parent would not need to carry the LH gene. Or do I have this wrong? (which is very possible!)



urbantigers said:


> My boy was in the first litter from the breeder so has an admin prefix - he is Advish Hobgoblin. Parents are Stacym nortiebutnice (chocolate tortie) and Emanan Geronimo (usual)


Ahh Stacym has been known for breeding Torties and Reds, she's very established Somali breeder. Found a photo of his mum, she's lovely!  Nortiebutnice Chocolate Tortie Somali


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

:crazy: my brain hurts!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

alixtaylor said:


> Thanks for this, I'll definitely look further into it via GCCF and the Somali BAC. From what I can tell from earlier discussions in the thread a SH Aby not carrying the LH gene could still result in LH kittens if bred with a LH Somali, so the Aby parent would not need to carry the LH gene. Or do I have this wrong? (which is very possible!)
> <snip>


To produce LH kittens both parents have to be LH or carrying LH, so an Aby (by definition shorthair) not carrying LH cannot produce LH kittens. If the Aby did carry LH then yes, it could, with a LH cat or another LH carrier.

I believe this is the up-to-date policy:
503 Service Temporarily Unavailable


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## Reets (Feb 19, 2014)

alixtaylor said:


> This is amazing! I did a quick google and Makeitso pops up in various generations of some of the current Somali breeders. It looks as though they they bred Abys as well. Lovely picture of all the Somalis you mentioned on their old website (apart from Bruno): Makeitso Somalis - Breeders of Somalis in the UK. Some gorgeous colouring, do you know what colour they were each registered as?


Makeitso (Peter and Yvonne) have had two lovely stud cats, Leoncini Lysander, then Mojave's Fantom who did really well on the show bench. Lysander was neutered and rehomed (now sadly at the Rainbow Bridge) and Fantom is now neutered and a pet in Peter and Yvonne's household, so I am not surprised that the boys and girls feature in many of the current pedigrees. They have stopped breeding now, both Abys and Somali's. They started breeding the Abys some years after breeding Somalis.

Amber was registered as a fawn silver tortie (not many of those around!),and Rosie was registered as a sorrel silver tortie. They were adorable girls, loved each other and were always cuddled up together. We lost Amber in 2011 to mammary cancer, and Rosie last year to kidney disease. We are so grateful to Peter and Yvonne for allowing us to look after them.

Bruno was bred by Alison Lyall. Her breed name was Leoncini. She is a cat show judge, but not breeding at the moment. She still has Bruno's mum and dad. Bruno was in a pet home from kittenhood.


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