# Victoria Stilwell- again!



## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

In response to the recent post on Victoria Stilwell, where someone said how she has changed her methods and terminology throughout the series, I just found a very good example of it from the 1st episode of the 1st series. The narrator says that the two labradors in the show were pulling on the lead as they saw themselves as 'pack leaders'!  

This is quite hilarious to me...a dog pulls on a lead because he wants to get somewhere and they think pulling you along is the fastest way...and they'd be right. However, they don't know that we want them to walk on a loose lead and who can blame them. 

I've never heard anything like that on her later episodes or series.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> In response to the recent post on Victoria Stilwell, where someone said how she has changed her methods and terminology throughout the series, I just found a very good example of it from the 1st episode of the 1st series. The narrator says that the two labradors in the show were pulling on the lead as they saw themselves as 'pack leaders'!
> 
> This is quite hilarious to me...a dog pulls on a lead because he wants to get somewhere and they think pulling you along is the fastest way...and they'd be right. However, they don't know that we want them to walk on a loose lead and who can blame them.
> 
> I've never heard anything like that on her later episodes or series.


I think all trainer's change over time I've just been watching CM and he has changed a lot over the last few years, and for the better I must say.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all trainer's change over time I've just been watching CM and he has changed a lot over the last few years, and for the better I must say.


I agree with that not wanting to get into a CM debate god they bore me, but he has changed a lot. I love victoria stillwell tho love her methods i met her one year at crufts and she such a lovely person.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I think its the sign of a good trainer if they are willing to keep an open mind and keep up with new methods and studies on dog behaviour. Its the ones who dont and are set in their ways with outdated methods that cause the problems regardless of who they are.


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> In response to the recent post on Victoria Stilwell, where someone said how she has changed her methods and terminology throughout the series, I just found a very good example of it from the 1st episode of the 1st series. The narrator says that the two labradors in the show were pulling on the lead as they saw themselves as 'pack leaders'!
> 
> This is quite hilarious to me...a dog pulls on a lead because he wants to get somewhere and they think pulling you along is the fastest way...and they'd be right. However, they don't know that we want them to walk on a loose lead and who can blame them.
> 
> I've never heard anything like that on her later episodes or series.


Didn't kow she'd been using Henry and Dyson, they pull like heck and thought that was quite normal. Not sure I like her theories and prefer Cesar Milan more


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Victoria, like every other trainer when the first series was made, talked about being pack leader and all the other accompanying theories, but she never used any form of aversives and would have been horrified at shock or helicoptering a dog into submission. Nor would she have believed in this flooding crap, where when a dog is scared of something you are supposed to get that thing in his face.

About twenty years ago I used a trainer who told me all about being pack leader and eating first and stuff, but never, ever did she try to force the dogs to do anything. She obviously loved dogs as does Victoria Stilwell.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I really like her too, but in this day and age, with all scientific research pointing well away from the notion of 'pack leaders', 'alphas' and even 'packs' altogether, I always cringe a little when this terminology is used to talk about and solve common behavioural problems, with dogs that simply don't know any better, that's all. 

However, I know that the pack leader notion has been prominent for many years, so it's hard to see it go without a fight. CM is changing his ways for the better I think, more because he's been forced to because, fundamentally, his theories has been proven wrong. And although I don't agree with him being on TV necessarily, it's nice to see that's he's being responsible to the thousands, even millions, who watch and follow him.

But I could go on for days...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

She did believe in dominance methods however she never alpha rolled them, kicked them in the side, used choke chains or anything like that. Even with the dominance theory it was all positive training. Ii think it was mostly the first and second series now she actively tries to teach the owners against dominance theory. One of the reasons I like her so much she learned that it was wrong and changed her techniques


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

have to admit i prefer her over cesar


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Wasn't VS originally an actress being fed training info from various other 'real' trainers for the show til she came into her own and actually became a trainer? Or did I dream that? Either way, I still prefer her training methods lol.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I agree with that not wanting to get into a CM debate god they bore me, but he has changed a lot. I love victoria stillwell tho love her methods i met her one year at crufts and she such a lovely person.


I do agree I do like Victoria Stillwell, but I'm not sure how she'd get on with some of the more vicious one that CM deals with.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I do agree I do like Victoria Stillwell, but I'm not sure how she'd get on with some of the more vicious one that CM deals with.


She has the skill set to clicker train, build positive experiences etc., so I think she'd be fine. Aggressive cases like we sometimes see on the Dog Whisperer always look 10 times as bad because Cesar deals with them _when_ they are aggressing (when the dogs are 'over-threshold'), whereas VS would deal with the problem when they are not aggressing, and avoid them aggressing, slowly bringing up the criteria and building a nicer environment for the dog to be in. :thumbup1:


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Watched It's Me or the Dog USA this morning and she was telling a woman off for 'alpha-rolling' her fear-aggressive dog. It's just bullying IMO, and she's going to get herself bitten. VS knows the whole 'calming effect' of pinning is bull, an Alpha doesn't have to touch his subordinate to get them to submit.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Argent said:


> Watched It's Me or the Dog USA this morning and she was telling a woman off for 'alpha-rolling' her fear-aggressive dog. It's just bullying IMO, and she's going to get herself bitten. VS knows the whole 'calming effect' of pinning is bull, an Alpha doesn't have to touch his subordinate to get them to submit.


If it is the same episode that I am thinking of, she also explains that dogs in the wild do not pin each other down, the other dog submits of its own accord. It is only flawed observations that have led to the idea that one dog will pin another down.

I do actually like the way she tells people off, it must be hard not to in many cases, but she also explains things not just does it herself to show off.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Argent said:


> Wasn't VS originally an actress being fed training info from various other 'real' trainers for the show
> til she came into her own and actually became a trainer? Or did I dream that? Either way, I still prefer her training methods lol.


she started some years ago as a starving-wannabe actress, WALKING DOGS to make ends meet & buy groceries.  
she began learning about dog-behavior & training in sheer self-defense, as walking an utterly untrained dog is a real 
challenge, even for someone who knows what they're doing. :laugh: obviously, she's not as ignorant as she was to begin.

i think she's improved considerably - & she did NOT talk the pack-waffle in the USA-versions, thank DoG.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> ...I just found a very good example of [early-VS] from the 1st episode of the 1st series.
> The narrator says that the two labradors in the show were pulling on the lead as they saw themselves as 'pack leaders'!


does anyone know how long-ago the 1st-series began broadcasting? [the original air-dates, not reruns?]
i know she had 1 or 2 series in the UK before her first here in USA - maybe more. 
TIA, 
- terry


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> does anyone know how long-ago the 1st-series began broadcasting? [the original air-dates, not reruns?]
> i know she had 1 or 2 series in the UK before her first here in USA - maybe more.
> TIA,
> - terry


The UK ones were made many years ago, I believe. She lost favour in this country over the little black spaniel that had to be pts. He kept biting the children and she advised to get him checked by the vet, who diagnosed rage syndrome and she agreed. But even though it was not her who told them to euthanise the dog, the public were up in arms about it. She had lost the pack leader rubbish long before that though.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> does anyone know how long-ago the 1st-series began broadcasting? [the original air-dates, not reruns?]
> i know she had 1 or 2 series in the UK before her first here in USA - maybe more.
> TIA,
> - terry


Apparently it ran for 7 series but quite a few were one-offs I think
A few of them are available on here but just series 1, 2 & 6 & not all episodes of those even, haven't been able to find anywhere that hosts every episode


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> The UK ones were made many years ago, I believe.


1990? '95? any idea at all?

_'It's me or the Dog'_ began in the UK in 2005 - i am presuming she had other series or single-programs 
before that? Just guessing. 


newfiesmum said:


> She lost favour in [the UK] over the little black spaniel that had to be pts. He kept biting the children and she advised
> to get him checked by the vet, who diagnosed rage syndrome & she agreed. [Tho] it was not her who told [the owners] to euthanise the dog, the public were up in arms about it.


aw, shame - poor dog. :nonod: But i would not blame that on her - it could just as easily have been epilepsy, 
untreatable cancer, etc. 


newfiesmum said:


> She'd lost the pack leader rubbish long before that, though.


i know i never heard it Stateside - but i did not know her before the series arrived on Animal Planet. 
she was a USA-apdt member by then, but i don't know when she joined.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> A few of them are available on here but just series 1, 2 & 6 & not all episodes of those even, haven't been able to find anywhere that hosts every episode


that's IMOTD - the 1st-program listed in Series-1 is from 
Date: Wednesday 31 August 2005 - 
starring the Browns, with their 2 impossible Lab-lunks. i saw that one - so presumably that bradcast here in the USA 
at the same time as in the UK[?], since that was one of [if not The First] the earliest i can recall.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The UK series started in 2005 with the two labradors according to her website. In the American series she was called in to train a few dogs that were previously "trained" by dominance methods the gorgeous catahoula mix springs to mind and she said dominance was a load of crap basically

http://positively.com/its-me-or-the-dog/the-show/episode-guide/


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Argent said:


> Wasn't VS originally an actress being fed training info from various other 'real' trainers for the show til she came into her own and actually became a trainer? Or did I dream that? Either way, I still prefer her training methods lol.


Yes, I was wondering how many people knew that. That's exactly what happened.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I do agree I do like Victoria Stillwell, but* I'm not sure how she'd get on
> with some of the more vicious [dogs] that CM deals with.*


i think she would very-likely do fine - & get bitten a *lot* less! :lol:

i remember in ONE 5-day weekday period, during his 1st-season, he was bitten by THREE dogs in those 5 days! 
NuNu the fearful Chi, Ruby the spooky Viszla, & ... i think the 3rd was the Bichon, afraid of scissors & handling.

it was a helluva week for bad-aids, :laugh: i hope he bought stock in Johnson & Johnson.

also just to point-out: i don't use _'vicious'_ as an adjective for dogs, since premeditated 
is part of the definition, & i do not think dogs lie-around planning their next assault. :blush: 
i might be wrong - but IMO & IME, -humans- can be vicious & premeditate; dogs simply act in the moment.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Yes, I was wondering how many people knew that.
> I've always held my tongue when the she comes up on threads.


she was dog-walking for hire on her own, long before she appeared as a trainer on TV. 
in the 1980s, if i'm not mistaken?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I've no idea of her background. It was one of the several professional trainer finalists who thought they were going to host the show that told me. VS was an actress who was going to be the narrator, but it later transpired that the professional trainers would be feeding her with info having assessed the dog off screen.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> she was dog-walking for hire on her own, long before she appeared as a trainer on TV.
> in the 1980s, if i'm not mistaken?


Well I only started watching her programme when I got these two, so couldn't tell you. I think the first episode I ever saw was the silly woman who bought a chihuaha because it looked like a cat and wondered why it didn't behave like a cat. She couldn't get near it with a lead so she used to chuck a blanket over its head! I was fascinated that anyone could be that stupid, so I started watching the rest of the episodes.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I think the first episode I ever saw was the silly woman who bought a Chihuahua
> because it looked like a cat and wondered why it didn't behave like a cat. She couldn't get near it with a lead so she used to
> chuck a blanket over its head! I was fascinated that anyone could be that stupid, so I started watching the rest of the episodes.


i remember that one! :lol: what a booby... :001_smile: but she did get better [the owner].


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