# Number of litters?



## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

I'm on a waiting list for a pedigree kitten due to born any time now and I was checking out the breeders Facebook page to see if there was any news as she posts all updates on it and I've noticed something that I'm not sure is normal or not. 

The mother cat had a litter November 2015, March 2016, July 2016 and is now due her 4th litter. Surely that means she got pregnant straight after giving birth each time, that can't be right surely? How many litters are they even allowed to have each year? 

The kittens are GCCF reg etc. and all seemed perfect until I spotted this. Tempted to walk away now or is this normal?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

The GCCF used to recommend a maximum of three litters in 2 years but it is not a written rule.


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

So 4 in 14 months while not against the rules is pretty bad? I'm amazed GCCF continues to register kittens over their recomended amount.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

The first 3 are closer than most would do, then she's had a break for the current litter. She was mated when kittens were approx 8 weeks, not straight after birth. 

You could ask the breeder, perhaps the girl cycled continuously and it was better to mate than risk pyo, maybe an accidental mating in there.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Are you sure it's the same girl each time? Whereas this many litters in so short a time is theoretically possible it is very unusual.


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

Definitely the same girl, on all the pictures she named the mother. She only has 2 girls and 1 male but 1 girl is a kitten still and hasn't had a litter yet.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

RottieMummy said:


> Definitely the same girl, on all the pictures she named the mother. She only has 2 girls and 1 male but 1 girl is a kitten still and hasn't had a litter yet.


Does the breeder give a date of birth for her queen? I am wondering if she has made a mistake in her posts about the litters. It has happened before. During the course of your conversations about a possible kitten it should be relatively easy to discover the facts. Does she register all her litters?


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

QOTN said:


> Does the breeder give a date of birth for her queen? I am wondering if she has made a mistake in her posts about the litters. It has happened before. During the course of your conversations about a possible kitten it should be relatively easy to discover the facts. Does she register all her litters?


She hasn't no. Just each time a litter has been born she's posted the pic of the mum with kittens and the mums name is on every post, it looks an identical cat on each one as well and she has already told me in conversation that she's just added a second breeding female but she's too young yet.

I am going to ask about this I just wanted to know if it was normal or not. And yes all litters registered with GCCF.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I wouldn't describe this as 'normal' as the vast majority of breeders try to get a decent length of time between litters. But some queens are vigorous callers and then you must weigh up the risks of just letting her call or giving her chemical birth control and the dangers of uterine infections that doing either of those things can cause, against the burden of having another litter so soon after the previous one.

I would be surprised if the GCCF hadn't written to this breeder and remarked on the frequency of the litters, particularly as the first three are all so close together, but as mentioned above there are no rules about frequency of breeding, simply because cats would naturally have several litters in close succession given the opportunity.

However, when buying a kitten, you should always go with your gut instinct. If something feels wrong to you, walk away.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

RottieMummy said:


> She hasn't no. Just each time a litter has been born she's posted the pic of the mum with kittens


'The pic'? Could it be she's posting up the same photo (with caption) even though it's different queens, simply advertising the fact she has kittens? Have you visited this breeder and know what she has or are you putting together the possible scenario from a distance at this stage?

If it doesn't feel right then walk away. If you want clarification then ask her.


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

I haven't visited yet no, I'm just going on conversations we have had and what I've seen.

I can't see it being different queens with the same pic however as there are also pictures of other queens with their kittens when they've had them so it seems she posts each time. She only has 2 females now though, the one I'm meant to be getting a kitten from and one that's still a kitten herself. 

Everything seemed so perfect until I saw her Facebook page and now I don't know what to do, took me ages to find this breeder!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm not saying you're wrong but it is easy to make assumptions on partial information. The number of litters here goes beyond just over breeding. It is possible in theory but unlikely. If it is just from one queen then it's too much - whatever the reason. Sometimes you do need to have litters closer together than you'd like but this many in so short a time can't be good for the condition of the queen.


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

Yeah that's why I didn't want to ask her outright. If I'm wrong I don't want to offend her as I'm new to buying a pedigree kitten and I had no concerns at all until this point. I've done my research, followed the advice on finding a breeder and maybe being too suspicious as a result. I've asked another member to have a look and see what they think, in case I'm getting the wrong impression.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

RottieMummy said:


> I've done my research


I know I sound like a broken record on here but the only research that counts is when you visit


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> I know I sound like a broken record on here but the only research that counts is when you visit


A awful lot of truth in that. I also find talking on the phone helps - if I don't feel comfortable talking to people on the phone it goes no further. I hate messaging, email etc.



RottieMummy said:


> I've asked another member to have a look and see what they think, in case I'm getting the wrong impression.


Have you heard back yet?


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

I am planning on visiting, but was doing initial checks first as it's a very popular breed and I could visit 100 breeders if I just visited everyone! I've been narrowing them down based on GCCF reg, health testing, breed club membership etc. and then will visit the short list. 

This breeder is 3 hours from me, I will visit once I've established that the initial checks are ok. Don't worry I wouldn't ever buy a kitten before seeing the breeders home and environment! 

And no not heard back yet.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Have you at least spoken on the phone? As OS said, you can tell a lot about someone with a phone call. I don't mind an initial contact/enquiry by email but nobody would even have gone on my shortlist (they do work both ways round) until I'd had a chat with them. If it's a numerous breed I'd say it isn't worth worrying about - look to the next on your list.


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

Yes spoken a lot on the phone, was really happy! They are long term breeders, show as well, many of their cats have show titles, health tests are done all kittens GCCF reg. Literally ticked every single box. Then she advised keeping an eye on the Facebook page as she will announce when the litter is born and while having a check I spotted this. 

And while it's a very popular breed it's also a very popular backyard breeder breed. Finding a breeder that does the health checks has been virtually impossible, hence looking at one 3 hours away from me.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> I also find talking on the phone helps - if I don't feel comfortable talking to people on the phone it goes no further. I hate messaging, email etc.


but what if the prospective buyer just isn't 'good' or 'comfortable' talking on the phone?

I hate talking on the phone - there are reasons (I need to see the person I speak to, to understand them properly) and just cover the absolute minimum on the phone, which probably wouldn't come across well in some situations eg if you were trying to gauge what sort of owner I'd be


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lilylass said:


> but what if the prospective buyer just isn't 'good' or 'comfortable' talking on the phone?


Then they'll be happier with a breeder who prefers different types of communication. I know there are lots of breeders who are happy enough with emails and texts right up to the moment the buyer turns up to collect a kitten. It's not completely to do with trying to gauge what sort of owner somebody would be. We're perfectly normal households without professional security and I want to talk to someone before I give them my address. I guess this wouldn't cross the minds of honest kitten buyers but whole litters of kittens and puppies get stolen as do stud cats from outdoor pens. We have to be careful. I've even had half the frames of the footage of my property removed from Google maps street view because you could see bits of my stud pen showing above the fence.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> Then they'll be happier with a breeder who prefers different types of communication.


But they may have done months of research and picked certain breeders / shortlisted them for very specific reasons - very unfair and actually discriminatory to rule them out because they can't discuss things on a phone ......


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I do understand your frustration but if the alternative is risking the safety of my family and my animals then I'm afraid there's no contest. Would you be happy giving your details to anyone and everyone who emailed you? We're just ordinary people, we aren't talking about commercial premises - we let complete strangers into our homes and each individual householder is entitled to make whatever checks they feel comfortable with before letting people visit.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> But they may have done months of research and picked certain breeders / shortlisted them for very specific reasons - very unfair and actually discriminatory to rule them out because they can't discuss things on a phone ......


Yes it is unfair but, in the end, the breeders have the kittens and so have the final say. Identifying the suitable owners is the hardest thing about breeding and was always what was the most worry for me even after the babies were in their new homes and, finally stopped me having more kittens. As Havoc says, there will always be other breeders who have other priorities and deal with the problems in a a different way.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> I do understand your frustration but if the alternative is risking the safety of my family and my animals then I'm afraid there's no contest. Would you be happy giving your details to anyone and everyone who emailed you? We're just ordinary people, we aren't talking about commercial premises - we let complete strangers into our homes and each individual householder is entitled to make whatever checks they feel comfortable with before letting people visit.


There are alternatives to that - you could meet at a mutually convenient location


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lilylass said:


> There are alternatives to that - you could meet at a mutually convenient location


'Cos all good breeders hand over kittens in pub car parks? Is that really how you'd want to buy a pedigree kitten?

The reality is that buyers need to see the breeder's home and every single time such a visit is arranged the breeder is taking a huge risk. Minimising that risk the responsible thing to do. I understand you don't like it - doesn't bother me at all. You have the choice to go elsewhere and I have the choice how I go about choosing my buyers.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> 'Cos all good breeders hand over kittens in pub car parks? Is that really how you'd want to buy a pedigree kitten?
> 
> The reality is that buyers need to see the breeder's home and every single time such a visit is arranged the breeder is taking a huge risk. Minimising that risk the responsible thing to do. I understand you don't like it - doesn't bother me at all. You have the choice to go elsewhere and I have the choice how I go about choosing my buyers.


For a chat as you would have had on the phone - not to get the kitten ..... Would've thought that was obvious!

You would only invite them to your home if you were comfortable after that


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Why would I do that when I've always had more prospective buyers than available kittens? Why would I arrange to meet someone who refused to speak to me?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> Why would I do that when I've always had more prospective buyers than available kittens? Why would I arrange to meet someone who refused to speak to me?


It's not refusing to speak to someone - where did I say that?

If you lip read you have to be able to see the person's face so the phone is very difficult & you miss most of what's been said & can end up looking like a complete eejit as you usually end up saying something which has nothing to do with what's been asked as you've misinterpreted it

Thank goodness there are people around who are willing to be flexible to people with disabilities ....


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> For a chat as you would have had on the phone - not to get the kitten ..... Would've thought that was obvious!


To be honest, home visits are more than just "chatting to the buyer". Its about observing them too, seeing how they are around cats, how they react and how the cats react to them. You simply cannot do this in a motorway service station (for example).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lilylass said:


> Thank goodness there are people around who are willing to be flexible to people with disabilities


A little matter you failed to mention for a page of posts. If you played the same game with a real kitten enquiry I'd still refuse you because we couldn't possibly cultivate the relationship I want with my kitten buyers. If you simply gave the necessary information up front it would be very different. I'm not unsympathetic to disability - I am to game playing.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> To be honest, home visits are more than just "chatting to the buyer". Its about observing them too, seeing how they are around cats, how they react and how the cats react to them. You simply cannot do this in a motorway service station (for example).


Where did I say it replaced the home visit?

It was instead of phone call(s) prior to that

You're (general you, not you inparticular) restricting your market by not being willing to be more accommodating to people with disabilities - thank goodness others are as I said earlier

If you (again general you) have no trouble placing all your litters that's fine - thankfully everyone I've come across when searching for animals has been more than happy to be flexible & understanding

I shall not reply again or there is a chance I'll say something I probably shouldn't


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

havoc said:


> A little matter you failed to mention for a page of posts. If you played the same game with a real kitten enquiry I'd still refuse you because we couldn't possibly cultivate the relationship I want with my kitten buyers. If you simply gave the necessary information up front it would be very different. I'm not unsympathetic to disability - I am to game playing.


I said needed to see the person to understand them in my 1st post - that's not game playing!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lilylass said:


> You're (general you, not you inparticular) restricting your market


It's a typical misconception that breeders are running some sort of commercial enterprise. Most aren't and most 'restrict their market' far more than most buyers can imagine. Through my breeding life I rejected around four or five enquiries for every one I even considered accepting. Some I had good reason for doing so and many I just didn't like that much. Many of those would have been perfectly good and responsible pet owners, just not good enough for my kittens.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Lilylass, at which point would you explain to a breeder your reason for preferring not to speak on the phone? Or would you prefer not to explain? A few years ago one of my kittens went to a disabled gentleman - long story but this meant he couldn't physically get into my home. This he explained when I first spoke with him... had he simply said that he would prefer not to visit or asked if I delivered kittens he would have received a polite refusal. We aren't mind readers!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> But they may have done months of research and picked certain breeders / shortlisted them for very specific reasons - very unfair and actually discriminatory to rule them out because they can't discuss things on a phone ......


My kittens are my babies. I have to feel absolutely sure they are going to a loving home with people I can talk to, who can talk to me. If not how can I provide the support they might need?

You say you can't use the phone, not sure what the issue is here, don't need or want to know, if you had happened to contact me I suspect it would all hinge on how you presented it. The worst experience I've had with someone wanting a kitten was a man who only emailed (he didn't get one), and with a stud owner (I didn't leave my cat) on reflection there were clues when we spoke in both how they spoke and what they said.

It's tough, very tough, but my kittens come first.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok I've read more now, can you lip read over Skype?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> The worst experience I've had with someone wanting a kitten was a man who only emailed


I have a breeder friend in her seventies, lives on her own and is about five foot two in heels. If someone with less than perfect intentions managed to con her into giving her address and letting them in for a supposed kitten visit she'd get no sympathy from police or public. We used to have a system whereby she'd phone me when visitors arrived and give me their car reg no. making no secret of doing so. Ridiculous? Maybe but not one genuine kitten buyer ever objected.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Well as someone who is disabled myself and has kittens/cats happily living in homes with other disabled people from a completely deaf couple to a wheelchair bound lady, I'm finding this whole thing bizarre to say the least! Its not even relevant to the OPs original post!


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

Things go off on such a tangent lol!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

RottieMummy said:


> Things go off on such a tangent lol!


They do. Have you heard back from the person you asked to check out their page?


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

I have yes and they agree that it does look like the same queen having litters very close together.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The OP is being extremely diplomatic on an open forum and for that I applaud them. I think it safe to say that her research will now go in a different direction


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

havoc said:


> The OP is being extremely diplomatic on an open forum and for that I applaud them. I think it safe to say that her research will now go in a different direction


Thank you that's nice of you to say.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I only hope you find the kitten you well deserve without too much trouble. I'd love a buyer like you


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## stevenco (Jan 7, 2011)

I've been told there's a few breeders that breed like that 1st litter register them with like Gccf 2nd litter sell them not registered 3rd litter register them 4th don't register them and so on.


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