# Not so purrfect cats



## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

I've just joined and decided to delve straight in with my problem cats..

I have 5, all from kitten. The eldest, a rescue, is 9, a brother and sister who are 6 and 2 brothers, 4. All neutered/spayed and all indoor cats.

4 years ago, when the youngest were kittens, I took on my brothers cat as he couldn't spend the time with him he needed. And so the fun started! He proceeded to traumatise the others, chasing, biting, just being a bully. (This was after the process of introduction and after I had him neutered) This went on for about 4-5 months before I managed to find a loving home for him. I think he needed to be on his own and he's such a lovely boy. 

After he left, my troop proceeded to start peeing and pooping everywhere. Carpets, beds, the bath and sink, piles of clean clothes and the kitchen worktops  Before this they all used their trays. 

4 years down the line and I'm at the end of my tether! I've followed all the advice from my vet and tried everything. They are now banned from the main living areas as I have since had twin boys who are now 16 months, really don't want them curious about what poop tastes like! I have built an outside run for them off the house so all I need to do is open the window and off they go. They are out during the day and in their own room at night. I hate it!! It's so unfair on them, they are so loving, but I really don't know what else to do. 

My thoughts are that they were very upset by my brothers cat and started this behaviour through stress. However, just got into the habit of acting this way. They are/were never scolded, I just cleaned the area best I could, ripped up carpets, thrown other pee soaked items away and kept to the vets advice. Nothing works!! :mad2:

I am willing to try ANYTHING! 

Advice/ideas very much appreciated!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Have you looked into feliway, or zyklene, have you asked the vet about seeing a behaviouralist?

It's not a nice situation to be in and I feel for you. I don't have masses of experience but others might be along soon who can help.


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## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

Yes looked into feliway. The vet told me I'd need a few and would cost at least £50 a month. I did try it for a few months but didn't make a difference. Also calming tablets. Haven't tried a behaviourist as yet...think that's the next step.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

There is an alternative to feliway - pet remedy Pet remedy - Effective relief for dog stress, cat stress and other pet stress. Perfect remedy for home alone syndrome and separation distress. it's a bit cheaper too. If you confine your cats to a small area (like the room they go in at night ) you would only need it in there.

But I think the behaviourist is probably the way to go.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi Queenanne, sorry to hear of your problem, it must be depressing for you not being able to give your cats free run of the house, but at the moment restricting their access is the best way to manage the inappropriate toiletting. 

I am sure you are right, your cats reacted badly to the introduction of your brother's cat to the house. Such a shame, when you were trying to do a good deed! Even though you have wisely rehomed the cat, your remaining cats got into the habit of not using their litter trays, and I am sorry to say it is not going to be easy to break them of the habit, as you have realised.

I think the chances are it was one or perhaps 2 of your cats that reacted to your brother's cat by toiletting inappropriately, and the others copied (cats being renowned copycats). It may mean that some of your brood will be easier to retrain than others. 

But it is not impossible to bring about some change, though I agree with Spid, you might be best to work with an animal behaviourist on this one, especially as you have already tried so hard to resolve it. They can come to your home and assess the situation for you, as well as giving ongoing support. 

You may have to accept it might take quite a while to achieve change, 
but you sound like a patient person who is prepared to make allowances.

Best of luck


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## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks. I guess I was thinking maybe there's something else I can do myself. 

Behaviourist it is!


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## seraphinious (Jun 18, 2012)

Good luck!!!


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

I agree with others that a behaviourist is probably your best choice from here.

I think the inappropriate toileting probably started as a symptom of stress and is now habit, and we all know how hard it is to break bad habits! Do they toilet randomly or tend to use the same areas? If the latter I would move the trays to those areas as it's obviously what they prefer. Every once in a while Holly will toilet outside of her trays even if they're fresh and clean, I just place a tray back in that area and touchwood after that she's back on track with toileting in her tray again. Hope that makes sense!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Gosh, I feel for you! Not many people would have your patience to put up with this behaviour.

When you say you have tried 'calming tablets' do you know what they were? Several members on here have had success with Zylkene recently, have you tried that?
Also, have you tried using a spray of Feliway directly on the areas they have soiled? I know you mention ripping carpets up etc but are you sure that ALL remaining odour has been removed? I use RX66 enzymatic cleaner as it can be used to soak into the sub floor and it really does seem to work.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok, here's my penny's worth.

Firstly, have you cleaned the area thoroughly with a product designed to remove cat wee and poo? If not, then regardless of whether you've ripped up carpets, the smell will remain, and it will be this that's drawing them back to toilet in the same spot.

Secondly, how many trays have you got and do they ever use them? Are they open or closed trays? Have you tried different types of litter? Increase your number of trays so that you have 1 for each cat plus 1. It's a lot, but that's what they need. Next, have a mixture of open and closed ones (take the flaps off the front of the covered ones as most cats won't push through them). Next, experiment with different types of litter to see if you can find a texture they like. Try clumping and non-clumping, pellets, clay, corn. I'd suggest Nature Gold for pellets as it clumps (although admittedly of late not very well). Pets at Home also do a wood pellet one but it doesn't clump. For corn, go for World's Best or even chick crumb. Non-clumping, I'd suggest Catsan, and for clay I'd try Sophisticat as my fusspot seemed to like that a lot before I transitioned to NG. Pets at Home also sell a litter by Tidycats I think which has kitten attract as part of its title. Basically, it has an agent in it which draws them to the litter to do their business. I used that with a litter of kittens last year, one of whom was very stubborn to train, and it worked wonders.

In the meantime, have a Pet Remedy plugged in and see how you go. By this point, you will have eliminated all smell, given them the option of open or covered trays, given different litter textures and choices and provided a calming aid. If they still refuse to use the boxes, I'd step it up a notch. I have done this in the past with cats who point blank refused to use the trays, and it's worked. I warn you though, you will need to harden your heart and remember that it's better for them in the long run as they'll have full access to the rest of the house.

I suspect you'll need to do this one or two at a time as you've got so many. Buy a pen, a small one that has just room for a litter tray, a bed and food and water. Set the pen up in a different room to the one your cats are used to being in (please note that I'm assuming you've cleaned your whole house with the enzymatic cleaner to remove lingering odours, otherwise this won't work). Then choose a cat and pop them in the pen. The theory behind this method is that a cat simply will not wee or poo where it has to eat or sleep, well, not more than a few times anyway. If they do soil the bedding, I tend to leave it there long enough that they get the idea that it's not going to be magically whisked away and cleaned up, i.e, just long enough for them to realise that really, if they do it on the bedding, they can't get away from it and now there's nowhere to lie down and take it easy. Then I put the poo into the tray and again, leave it there for a while while they have clean bedding. If they persistently wee on the bedding despite all attempts to convince them otherwise, I remove the bedding (the pen I use for this purpose has a padded floor, so they're still pretty comfy). Cats do not like getting their feet wet, and if they wee on the floor, it pools around their feet which they absolutely hate.

Eventually, and the time varies depending on the cat, they will begin to realise that the litter tray is a good place, the only option in fact, for doing your business. They will learn to keep their environment clean by weeing and pooing in there, and will be encouraged, because every time you see them do it, you give oodles of praise, treats, special food, whatever motivates them. Of course, you can still handle them, but you must never let them have free run of a room whilst still needing to be in the pen.

Only when they are continent and consistently using the tray for 2 or 3 days will I consider letting them out, and only then when they can be under direct supervision. They should be confined to one room initially, and you need to watch like a hawk. As soon as they show signs of toiletting inappropriately, pop them back in the pen and begin from square 1, waiting again for them to be continent for a few days before allowing them into the room again. Gradually, you open up your house one room at a time, regressing right back to the start every time they toilet inappropriately, i.e back to the pen, then to 1 room, then to 2.

I know this sounds harsh, so before everyone comes after me with flaming torches and pitchforks, let me make it really clear that if a cat goes through this in my house, they get lots and lots of cuddling and love. it just happens that when I take them out, they're not allowed to get down and wander. They still get loads of attention, in fact, as much as they can handle! None of mine seem scarred by this, and all have pretty spot on litter tray habits except, admittedly, during pregnancy, but I cut them some slack for that.

This is not a quick fix by any means, but it sounds like you'd be willing to try anything, and personal experience tells me this works.


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## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

I agree that the initial stress was the trigger and now it's a habit.

I used 8 trays and emptied them twice daily, bleaching them every few weeks. If I just removed the wee and poo they would refuse to use it, choosing the floor next to it instead. Surprisingly they are quite happy to toilet by their food :scared: I haven't tried the covered trays so I shall get some. Their favourite toilet places are pillows, (with are then thrown away), beds, (disinfected), the floor outside the bathroom, (carpet thrown away and the floor scrubbed with odour eliminator from the vet), kitchen worktops, (bleached) saucepans, coffee maker, trays, oven trays, on the microwave, (all thrown away) and they still do it there :mad2: I've tried keeping the worktops so full there's no room and also totally clear with pepper or vinegar sprinkled everywhere. But no, they still do it.

I can't remember the calming tablets, but maybe they don't need them, they just need the habit broken. I shall get the smell remover you've recommended and redo their favourite spots and the room their restricted to at night. 

It's not good but I have been getting to the point of giving up, a lack of time doesn't help, I've 16 month twins. Now I have some new ideas I shall certainly go for it (thanks carly and all)

So my plan now is to go shopping, rescrub everything, get covered trays, the same litter as they were always fine with before and try them inside for a few days and see what they do. I shall ban them from bedrooms though, the kids won't be happy if they do happen to poop on their pillow! If the habit continues then I shall get a large cage and work with them one by one. How does that sound?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I really seriously applaud you for your patience! I have only ever had to deal with inappropriate toiletting when a cat has been very ill and maybe in it's final days....to have to put up with it from several young and healthy cats would be beyond me I admit.
Bad Smell or Foul Odour Control with Airx Odour Control from Xeria.co.uk, RX 66 Bio-enzymatic odour digester (5L)
This is the enzyme cleaner I used after my elderly cats messed on carpet. None of the others including new kittens and upset foster cats have ever soiled the areas again in that room so I do believe it really works.
Did you think about my suggestion of using the Feliway spray on ( or rather near ) the soiled areas as well??


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## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

Ah yes, forgot to put that I'm going to get the spray or the plug in, thanks!

Interestingly the culprit cats name is Lucifer, how apt!! He lives over the road from me now and is spoilt rotten and good as gold!

And thanks for the link! Carpet cleaning won't be a difficult job now as I resorted to carpet tiles and can hang them on the line!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

queenanne said:


> Ah yes, forgot to put that I'm going to get the spray or the plug in, thanks!
> 
> Interestingly the culprit cats name is Lucifer, how apt!! He lives over the road from me now and is spoilt rotten and good as gold!


I do say to try the SPRAY this time, and use it around the areas they are tempted to mark with urine/faeces.


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## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

Will do, I'll try the spray thanks


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

#and when you're cleaning your tile,s wash them with biological washing powder as that's the only thing that'll get rid of the smell.

As for a large cage, no, buy one that is only big enough for a bedd, a tray, food and water. If it's bigger, you've defeated the whole purpose of forcing them to use the tray. My pen that i use for this is about 2 and a half ft wide by about 3 and a half or aybe 4 long. It really isn't big at all which is why i go out of my way to handle them loads when they're in there, otherwise they'd go nuts! I also set the pen up in the living room or somewhere else that's really high traffic so that they have people talking to them all the time and plenty to watch too. I put ping pong balls in there with them to give them something to play with which can be washed or even thrown away (you don't want toys smelling of wee either).

Sounds like they might be targetting bleach though. Did you know that bleach has amonia in, so can smell like a wee to a territorial cat? The fact that they're also using soft items to toile on makes me wonder about a few things. Firstly, it suggests that they may not like the litter texture, so I really do encourage you to buy a variety of different types and then see which cat is using what. Have they all been to the vet for a check up? It's not possible that any of them are avoiding the trays for medical reasons, is it? Often, cats who associate the litter tray with pain, i.e, if they have a UTI or something similar, will choose soft things to toilet on.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Excellent advice Carly:thumbup: I can imagine the cage system would be about the only thing that would be guaranteed to work, in almost every case with very recalcitrant cats! 

Queenanne -- you really do have my sympathy -- your cats' behaviour sounds like a complete nightmare! They sound determined to use just about anywhere for a toilet rather than the designated places!  And on top of this you are bringing up your young twins! You must be a saint, is all I can say! 

Carly has given you brilliant practical advice on how to bring about a major fundamental improvement in your cats' behaviour, and I doubt you would get any better advice from a professional animal behaviourist. So you may have saved yourself quite a bit of money!  

I do hope you manage to resolve the problem. Please keep us updated with your progress?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Chillminx, you really do know how to make a girl blush!

I know this works though. I've done it, I've helped friends do it, I've helped family do it and it works. It's not nice for the cats, it's hard on the humans if they really make an effort to give them loads of attention, it's emotionally draining when you see them cooped up and really want to let them down, but it works!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Carly, yes, I agree -- I can imagine the method would be tiring and emotionally draining for the humans and I don't suppose the cats would be very happy for the duration, but I think I might manage to do it, if I had to, for the sake of the bigger picture! The pain would be worth the gain in other words!. 

When things are as out of control as the OP has described her situation, 
your system would be well worth trying in my view.


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## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

Fantastic advice!! I knew cats were attracted to bleach, but every worktop incident was met by me using bleach to ensure no germs....so it seems I was making it worse myself : and maybe, before I knew they liked bleach, I've created some nice smells for them by bleaching floorboards before putting new carpet down...

Will the enzyme cleaner remove all traces of ammonia?

They are all healthy, no UTI's thankfully. My aunty has a cage the size described so I'll borrow that. I'm thinking I should remove all the smells around the house first before I start the training. Luckily there aren't many places since I tend to just throw it away. It'll just be hallway carpet tiles, the floor underneath and the room they stay in at night...and the kitchen worktops, which luckily I haven't used bleach on for months favouring anti-bacterial.

To be honest, putting them in their outside run has been awful for me, they all used to come in and out as they liked...leave the window open and off they go. So caging them will be easier as I know that once they have their good habits back I can have them inside again. Miss them indoors so much. :sad:


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Good Luck Queenanne! Please let us know how you get on?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, the enzymatic cleaner should remove all traces of it. I don't really know what to suggest as an interim cleaner as so many of them smell attractive to cats. How about something lemony?

Please do let us know how you get on. I'm really looking forward to seeing how things turn out. Remember, if you need a pick me up, a sympathetic ear, someone to rant at or someone just to reassure you that you're doing the right thing and the crappy bit will soon be over (pardon the punn), then you're more than welcome to get in touch with me privately and I'll chat you through it.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I will say it again....you have the patience of a saint!
I know that as well as fantastic, comprehensive advice..Carly has offered to chat to you for support. But don't forget that we are ALL here for you too online so you can offload, moan, chat or whatever while you get this sorted.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hasn't she just! I don't think I could cope with 6 of them all doing it all over the place, I really don't.


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## Jeannemf (Aug 18, 2012)

Hello,
In addition to using a pheramone this is what I have done. 
Two things needs to happen to correct the behavior. 
1) the smell of pee and poop needs to be removed or at neutrlized. I use the basics: white vinegar. Vinegar will neutrize the smell plus the cats are not very fond of it. The down side is you will need a lot of it. The up side is that it should not damage furniture or carpet or change it's color. Add the vinegar to whatever cleaning solution your are using. As a rule of thumb I put in 1 quart to every gallon of cleaning solution. If you discovered an area that they really use a lot then pour the vinegar on that area. Don't worry it won't hurt the furniture or carpet. It may smell funny but that's the point.

2) you need to get the cats back to going where you want them to go. There are some products that you can add to your litter that attracks the cat to that spot to do their business. I am not sure which ones would be good but any of them will help draw them back to the area. 

Finally you need to do this slowly. In other words, don't clean then turn them all loose at once. I would start with one cat by letting he or she back into the house after you have used the vinegar and put something into the litter. If that goes well then add another cat. If that goes well another. 

I would also inspect the house routinely just to make sure there are no accidents. If there are clean again with the vinegar, actually pour it on and let it dry.


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## queenanne (Aug 16, 2012)

Thank you all so much! I may just take you up on your offer Carly!

Does white vinegar work as well as enzymatic cleaner? Must admit I want the strongest thing possible to rid the smells once and for all. I only use bleach in the loo now and use antibac washing up liquid for cleaning. I'm thinking if I mix that with bio washing powder then I can keep any scents away.

I'm so glad I joined PF, I was getting to the point of trying to rehome. So glad I didn't pursue that line as I would have contacted the RSPCA...I assumed they would rehome but now realise reading other threads, that they would be deemed not rehomable and put to sleep. I knew they did that years ago but obviously naive thinking they'd stopped.

I can finally see light at the end of the tunnel!! And am looking forward to them sleeping at my feet again! :thumbup:


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I think Carly mentioned a litter from PAH with something in to attract the cats...this one gets good reviews and results
Cat Attract Litter :: Cats & Kittens :: R & L Pet Products - Pet food, litter, hygiene, accessories & toys
Unfortunately no one in uk seems to sell the herbal additive which would be a lot cheaper to get delivered than the litter....but they do seem to like the litter ( I tried it once )


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm sure I've seen the addative somewhere. Maybe sold by Crystal Clear? Might be worth having a look.

The Tidycats or Clean and Tidy or something like that (it's got Tidy in it anyway!) from Pets at Home has kitten attract in it, but it works on adults just as well as kittens. fyou cna't find it, give me a shout and I'll look it u.

As for vinegar, I do use this to spot clean if one of my bubs has an accident when they're first let out of the kittening pen and before they've got this litter tray thing down totally, but I have liquid resistant carpets, and kitten accidents are tiny in comparison to adults. I'm also there to get it straight away. Not meaning to criticise the other poster, but in your situation, I wouldn't even go there. Perhaps for maintenance, but again, as yours are such a problem, I'd play it safe and get the manufactured stuff that definitely strips it all out. If you want to be doubly sure, there's nothing stopping you using both!

I'd also not advocate letting one cat back into the house with free roam. The other poster is assuming that the cat will be clean as there's no smell left, but what if they aren't? There's no contingency plan. Nope, in your situation, I'd do exactly what I've already outlined, coupled with Paddypaws' suggestion of Feliway if they have any particular spots they like to go in.

As for my offer, just give me a shout as and when! If it would help, you're welcome to come and see the set up that I use here, although I've not had to jail a cat in quite a few years now! Very firmly touching wood at this point.


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