# Experiment with kibble after months of raw diet



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

A few weeks back I posted this thread about trying to get weight off on a raw diet as I've been struggling with Indie's weight.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-heal...-raw-diet.html?highlight=weight+loss+raw+food

This week I weighed all 3 of my dogs and they have all gained 2-3 kg  Colt I think will lose it again reasonably easily once his achillies injury is better and he can run off lead again (he has been on a lead since last October) and is very close to finishing his rehab now. However Arthur has now got some issues going on with his elbows which are being investigated and the vet suggested trying to get a bit of weight off him. Indie is just over 40 kg now which is far too much for her.

So having tried to reduce their weight by keep on cutting back their raw and adding veggies and increasing exercise I've decided to experiment with a trial back on kibble just to see if it makes a difference. I've gone for Millie's Wolfhart - having spoken to them they suggested either Riverside or Countryside or Salmon and veggies. So today we have begun our trial. I've measured them around the waist and chest too and taken photographs from above and the sides to compare to.

I do love feeding them raw but have found that Colt's coat has been dull/starry despite adding salmon oil and a vitamin E/primrose oil capsule. Arthur is also sick a fair bit although biscuits at bedtime helped with bile/hunger sickness in the night - he still brings up bits of bone fairly regularly. Indie has also got "dirty" teeth which I had hoped raw would improve but it hasn't.

Anyway its just a trial, I've still got a lot of raw food in the freezer to go back to at any point. My main concern is that Indie will go back to being manic and doing wall of death like she was on kibble before so watch this space.


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## Freddie and frank (Mar 26, 2012)

Well I for one will be interested in how you get on. 
Not for the same reason, but I too have been thinking about switching. 
I've just come back from a pet shop with a bag of Eden holistic kibble and a bag of Canagan. 

Hope you get on ok. Keep us posted.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Think personally you'll do fine having picked what I would consider a decent commercial food.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I've decided to shame myself by showing these photos and as a source to refer back to in a couple of weeks. No need to shout at me I know they are overweight.

Indie





Colt





Arthur


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

It funny - I mean my raw supplier had changed their way of ordering so I could no longer use them.

So now Io is on Millies Wolfheart, as well as some raw bones a few times a week ( ribs, wings, carcasses )

My cat was also fed raw - well he is now on whiskas, WW grainfree wet trays and chicken wings - his coat looks great!! on raw it was all flakey and rubbish!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Spencer's been back on kibble for a couple of weeks now, we figured we'd do everything the vet recommended to clear up the hotspot he had although we went with Taste of the Wild over the crap they wanted him on. I've noticed very little difference in him but he has definitely lost weight and done so quickly. Still can't see even a hint of a rib but he feels like a bloody toast rack! He's now on more than the feeding guide recommends and we'll see how he goes. He's doing really well on it other than that. 

Hope you manage to get some weight off your three without any problem. It's difficult when they have physical issues as well I've found. Shadow spent his last few years a bit portly because despite eating a ridiculously small amount the weight just would not shift.


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## SarahPlzX (Nov 13, 2011)

Lily was switched from RAW to kibble for the same reasons. She gained 2kg in a few months and I was giving one chicken wing or one small boney meal/ mince per day (she's 8kg- Bichon Frise)

Struggling to get weight off my dog, so will be interested to see if this works for you!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

After having raw fed full time for 6 years, and then going back to kibble in February, I personally dont think raw is all it's cracked up to be, and I dont think I would ever feed it full time again. I give my lot the odd bit of raw here and then but it no longer agrees with them, seems to give them upset stomachs.


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

I feed kibble good quality one and raw meals as and when.so long as getting a good mix its not an issue so you can still use what's in your freezer.
Max was always perfect weight.merlin could loose some but he doesn't shift weight easily and to be honest l would rather an extra few kg and him be happy but he does get a lot of exercise .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Again, I think it's trying to find a diet to suit what is best for your dog rather than stick to something religiously if it is not working

I raw feed & mine they always have mince for breakfast (& evening sometimes), which I mix with veggies for Toby as he is prone to put weight on.

I have found that this helps me control their weight ... although I realise some raw feeders would consider minces are not 'proper' raw feeding


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## katysu (Aug 26, 2009)

I lurk here a lot, not post much as I currently do not have a dog. 
My dog was PTS just after Easter, cancer.

She was fed on a mix of Millies Wolfheart & tinned Natures Menu, but that was only the last few months of her life after she was rehomed with me.

I would have said she was not on a good diet in the home she had before me, at one point in time it was Royal Canin and then Aldi. 

I'm not saying any of this caused the cancer, I don't know what did and there were no symptons until it was too late to save her. 

While she was with me I was thinking of moving her over to either raw or home cooked (or possibly some of both) 

- was it sled dog that posted recipes from the Guardian Angel site?
I can find the recipes easily if I search 'Guardian Angel dog' ( there is a weight loss one too). 

I also thought this book was interesting (sorry its rel expensive at £24, Amazon, but no postage) Ihor John Basko/Fresh food & ancient wisdom.

I know there are a lot of recipes online.
I was just a little surprised you are moving from raw to kibble. 
The more I read the more I felt kibble was a highly processed food, I wanted to get back to something a bit more simple.
I'm not saying kibble is bad (I got 'told off' on this site once before for saying I was thinking of moving away from kibble).
And I would still probably have fed Natures Menu tinned. (at least until I felt secure enough that I was feeding food with the correct balance).

My dog loved Millies wolfheart treats (the trachea, oesphagus ones etc) & I would have continued with those for the crunch factor. 

I guess that is the problem - getting the nutrition balance right with home cooked. 
Rottie - your dogs look lovely, to be proud of.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Thank you for the comliment katysu, I am very proud of them but a bit ashamed that I've let them get overweight which is why I feel I have to change things. It is only a trial however and I may still end up going back to raw.

I've gone with Millies Wolfheart because it seems one of the more "natural" kibbles with no grain and a high meat content. It comes out pretty well on the review sites too. I've got quite a stock of dried natural treats like the tracheas but also beef lips/heart/lungs/scalp etc so they will be staying on a pretty natural diet.

Already the GSP's coat has got more of a shine and feels softer - I'm assuming thats down to the oils in the kibble that despite adding salmon oil to his raw he can't have been getting enough of. So far none of them are manic and climbing the walls either  We will see what happens with their weight as that is my main motivation for changing.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Were you feeding too much raw? Sorry if that's a stupid question 
I've just started on raw for my 33kg shepherd bitch.
She's on nutriment and the lady worked out that for 2% of her weight she should be fed 660g a day so I split that into 2 meals.
If she gets any wings or necks I deduct it off her daily allowance.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

blade100 said:


> *Were you feeding too much raw*? Sorry if that's a stupid question
> I've just started on raw for my 33kg shepherd bitch.
> She's on nutriment and the lady worked out that for 2% of her weight she should be fed 660g a day so I split that into 2 meals.
> If she gets any wings or necks I deduct it off her daily allowance.


I haven't yet contributed to this thread but that thought also crossed my mind.

As the percentage is only a guideline, it's necessary to check the weight of the dog from time to time and adjust accordingly or, in the case of a dog whose shape is easily seen, keeping an eye on it.

Poppy is a fluffy 5.5kg Bichon so you can't see her shape. I find that feeding her 150g raw a day keeps her weight stable, and that allows for some small training treats daily, occasional chew type treat, and a post-final toilet walk biscuit. If I find she's put on weight when I weigh her I just drop her raw to 140g a day and as soon as she's back to her normal weight I increase it a bit again.

I can easily weigh her at home but if I had a bigger dog then I'd just pop into the vet to weigh her.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Diz maintains a perfect weight of 15kg on raw, rarely fluctuates more that .1kg, even when exercise varies. 

A few days on raw, even Orijen, she gains weight, if I feed her less than she gets sick with hunger. 

Like anything I guess, works for some, not for others


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I hope your doglets get on with Millies, I have decided to stick to it too after feeding raw for a while and my 2 love it.

I look forward to seeing their progress


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

blade100 said:


> *Were you feeding too much raw? Sorry if that's a stupid question*
> I've just started on raw for my 33kg shepherd bitch.
> She's on nutriment and the lady worked out that for 2% of her weight she should be fed 660g a day so I split that into 2 meals.
> If she gets any wings or necks I deduct it off her daily allowance.


Not a stupid question at all. I must have been feeding too much I suppose but if you look at my previous thread (link in 1st post on here) you'll see I've only been feeding Indie about 1% of her weight. I can't drop her to one meal a day as she has NSAIDs twice daily for her elbows and has had tummy problems in the past so we have to make sure she has it with a meal. The only thing I would do differently if we go back to raw is probably drop some of the carcass/bone which would be a shame as thats really their favourite bit.

DirtieGirtie I did try to monitor and adjust their food but like I said I kept on reducing the amount I was feeding Indie and it just didn't make any difference, at one point she was down to 60g of mince with vegetables twice a day with a chicken carcass of 200g so under 350g but she still didn't lose. I've increased her exercise as much as I can given her joint problems so this trial is my last resort. She does have quite a thick coat but thats no excuse I should have done something sooner. The boys are deceptive as I can feel their ribs easily but Arthur has never weighed 30 kg before so I feel I have to give this trial a go to see if it works.

Sarah H I'm glad to hear your dogs love the Millies Wolfheart - are you happy with them on it?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

RPH...NONE of your dogs are obese. 


I know a fair amount of dogs who ARE overweight and yours aren't amongst them. 4 of my dogs were naturally very lean and athletic ( 2 Berners, 1 Springer, 1 Muensterlander ) regardless of what or how much I fed ( within reason, obviously) and one ( Berner) was forever struggling with weight. Same amount and duration of exercise, same food - just a fraction of what his skinny brother got. True, he was an inherently much more sedate dog than the others - he would sit and study the birds, squirrels and rabbits rather than dash after them! - but I am convinced that he had a different metabolism.

Be interesting what your dietary trial will yield! TBH, after nursing 2 of mine who wouldn't eat for an entire week or more ( one had salmonella, the other one....can't remember- aspiration pneumonia I think), neither of which had a spare ounce of fat to lose before they got sick, I will never obsess about my dogs weight again unless it is truly disconcerting. I wish vets would take the above into consideration when they harp on and preach about the dog needing to be lean, lean, lean. Since the effects of prolongued food refusal from a super svelte dog really will make you pull your hair out from worry!

I think your gang looks great!


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not a stupid question at all. I must have been feeding too much I suppose but if you look at my previous thread (link in 1st post on here) you'll see I've only been feeding Indie about 1% of her weight. I can't drop her to one meal a day as she has NSAIDs twice daily for her elbows and has had tummy problems in the past so we have to make sure she has it with a meal. The only thing I would do differently if we go back to raw is probably drop some of the carcass/bone which would be a shame as thats really their favourite bit.
> 
> DirtieGirtie I did try to monitor and adjust their food but like I said I kept on reducing the amount I was feeding Indie and it just didn't make any difference, at one point she was down to 60g of mince with vegetables twice a day with a chicken carcass of 200g so under 350g but she still didn't lose. I've increased her exercise as much as I can given her joint problems so this trial is my last resort. She does have quite a thick coat but thats no excuse I should have done something sooner. The boys are deceptive as I can feel their ribs easily but Arthur has never weighed 30 kg before so I feel I have to give this trial a go to see if it works.
> 
> Sarah H I'm glad to hear your dogs love the Millies Wolfheart - are you happy with them on it?


I think it's like a lot of things, what's right for one isn't necessarily right for another. You've given it a good go and it seems that raw isn't working out for you, particularly with Indie. I didn't read the other thread you linked to when I posted before, but from what you say I can understand your problem with Indie, I can't see how you could go lower than 1%.

Seeing as you've still got some raw left, maybe you could give one meal raw, one meal kibble and see how that goes as far as Indie is concerned. Maybe cut out tripe and anything else that is "fatty" such as skin if there's any on the carcasses. Do you think you could leave the other two on raw but lower the amount and see if that makes a difference?

Everything I've heard about MW has been good. In fact I've just persuaded my son to change to MW (after asking on here) as his two dogs were on Royal Canin as advised by his vet. He's using the RC up by giving 50/50 at the moment and the dogs are more than happy with the addition of the MW and there's been no change to their "output" from what I understand.

I hope you find the right balance and manage to get them all to a weight you're happy with.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> RPH...NONE of your dogs are obese.
> 
> I know a fair amount of dogs who ARE overweight and yours aren't amongst them. 4 of my dogs were naturally very lean and athletic ( 2 Berners, 1 Springer, 1 Muensterlander ) regardless of what or how much I fed ( within reason, obviously) and one ( Berner) was forever struggling with weight. Same amount and duration of exercise, same food - just a fraction of what his skinny brother got. True, he was an inherently much more sedate dog than the others - he would sit and study the birds, squirrels and rabbits rather than dash after them! - but I am convinced that he had a different metabolism.
> 
> ...


Thank you that is very kind of you and I know they are not obese although Indie is fat. The boys will no doubt lose some over the winter anyway as they do not cope well with the cold weather but madam won't. I understand what you are saying about having reserves but I think Indie has enough to see her through a famine :laugh:

DirtyGirty at the moment the small amount of wet I'm adding to the kibble is natures menu freeflow as I have a freezer full of the stuff. Lets see how the weight loss goes and I'll review how to proceed then. I am surprised how quickly Colt's coat has improved though, its much softer whereas it was feeling coarse and dull.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sarah H I'm glad to hear your dogs love the Millies Wolfheart - are you happy with them on it?


Very 

Muffin my oldie is on 50/50 wet and MWH, just because that's what she's been on all her life and I feel bad switching her to dry completely (I'm a softy). She's on the salmon and veg for all the goodness from the salmon, and it's the best for low energy levels.

Nooka is on 2/3 countryside and 1/3 farmers which seems to be working really well. She's a high energy dog and this keeps her going all day (and keeps her lean), though I'd like to try the new Obedience mix when it comes out next month, but I don't know if I should switch when I've got a good mix worked out...
Also with her allergies MWH has really helped in keeping her scratching down. They both also have nice shiny coats and small firm poos that turn to dust if left.

I can't remember the actual amounts I feed as I measured it out and have drawn lines on my scoop! But it isn't a huge amount at all


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I have read this thread with interest as I am struggling terribly with Willow's weight. She lost 1.5kg but I fear that at next weigh in this will have increased again. 
Partly her epilepsy medication can lay at source as they has decreased her energy levels and made her a lot more sluggish, she went from doing 15 retrieves on average to only doing about three, but still I want to get weight off of her for obvious reasons. 
Eating 350g a day is under 1% of her bodyweight and she has been on that for ages and she doesnt lose any weight. 
It's very upsetting to me and I would seriously consider switching her if I thought it could get this excess weight off of her.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Danny was only having a teaspoon of raw and I could not get the weight off him. Since he's been back on a mostly dry diet he's lost weight and the vet didn't give me a lecture for a change :w00t:.

I give them raw a few times a week now, but I've found the cheaper brands make him gain weight (naturally ).


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I'd been feeding Millie on Natures Menu raw for nearly 6 months - She put on just over a Kg! 

I know its because she is getting to much and its our fault but its so much harder to gauge amounts esp with hubby feeding what he believes she needs which is definitely more than required 

Then topping her up with wet anyway! 

I have in the last 2 weeks admitted defeat and she is back full time on Natures Menu wet tins. As even hubby can spoon out 1/3 of a tin :001_tongue:

To be honest I reckon Millie enjoys the tins as much as the raw nuggets and she does do really well on it so I certainly dont feel guilty but Millie is also in the trying to 'slim down' camp 

Was so embarressing when the vet at her annual check up actually described her as fat :001_tongue: Although it made me giggle as I knew it but just needed to be told


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Like you we have recently swapped back to a dry food, as my decent sized freezer broke down and I can't afford to replace it at the moment. 

We decided to go for Lukullus Charlois beef & trout and Lukullus Gustico wet now and again. Mine have been switched since 25/07 so coming up to two months. 

I had a love hate relationship with raw feeding, I loved the idea of giving my dogs the "best" I could find and afford but I hated the mess and preparation and I was struggling to keep Blade at a constant weight and being nudged by my vet because of it. 

It's been almost two months since we swapped and I was stood looking at Blade yesterday thinking " He looks really bloody good" his coat is shiny and sleek, his weight looks fantastic and I am really pleased with how he's doing. 

I need to take him to get weighed again but visibly I think he's put a couple of KGs on and I think Taz will be the same. The last time I took Taz to get weighed he was down to 4.2KG again and the vet was not impressed. 

Taz is also a lot less smelly  I couldn't feed him solid bone for fear of it ripping his teeth out so he always got minced bone which I don't think was doing his nashers any good. 

Again, I don't think raw is all it's cracked up to be. I don't doubt it suits some dogs but I don't think it suits mine.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I do think there is one thing over looked with raw. It is all done by weight. But 200g of chicken carcass does not have the same calories as 200g minced fatty lamb, or breast of lamb etc which contains a lot of fat. Dex put on weight when he was getting to many calorie laden meats, (mainly because our supplier didnt have any chicken one month) I reduced these to chicken, tripe (low cal), more boney meals et, along with other meats on occassion and his weight stabilised.

I also think many of us overfeed as we no longer weigh meals and its easy just to chuck em a chunk of something without thinking it is probably 2 meals worth of food.....


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> I do think there is one thing over looked with raw. It is all done by weight. But 200g of chicken carcass does not have the same calories as 200g minced fatty lamb, or breast of lamb etc which contains a lot of fat. Dex put on weight when he was getting to many calorie laden meats, (mainly because our supplier didnt have any chicken one month) I reduced these to chicken, tripe (low cal), more boney meals etc and his weight stabilised.
> 
> I also think many of us overfeed as we no longer weigh meals and its easy just to chuck em a chunk of something without thinking it is probably 2 meals worth of food.....


I did think the same so I only ever bought fatty meats while trying to get Blade's weight up. Mine mostly had lamb, beef, Pheasant, Venison and Game along with tripe , salmon and tripe mixes such as tripe and lamb or tripe and salmon. I steered clear of chicken and turkey and the majority of their meals was made of chunks rather than minces.

I was feeding Blade almost 1KG of raw per day and his weight was still either decreasing or going nowhere.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Strange isnt it how some cant keep weight on, and some get podgy on raw....

I couldn't put Dex back on dry.... he botty stench was just too much to bear!


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Strange isnt it how some cant keep weight on, and some get podgy on raw....
> 
> I couldn't put Dex back on dry.... he botty stench was just too much to bear!


I thought we would get botty stench pretty bad but we haven't! Last time I fed dry I tried Eden, and Millies Wolfheart which gave Blade and Taz terrible explodabot and the constant trumps. I was chatting to someone about swapping back to dry and they suggested something lower in meat content so it was a toss up between Lukullus or Barking Heads but when I realised barking heads would cost me over £2 per day, per dog to feed and scores 4.1 out of 5  I went with Lukullus which costs 80p per day and scored 4.4

The Sibes get about 230g per day, the poos ARE a big bigger but not smelly ... luckily lol! The increased water in take has been a learning curve and for the first few weeks we were getting woken in the night for wees but it seems to have settled.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Io is now on the turkey / veg MWH - she was on the salmon/veg one before we went to raw. When she was fed Raw she neither gained or lost weight, just stayed at her usual 19kg.

She gets 150g of MWH a day, as well as two WW grain free wet filled kongs.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I do think there is one thing over looked with raw. It is all done by weight. But 200g of chicken carcass does not have the same calories as 200g minced fatty lamb, or breast of lamb etc which contains a lot of fat. Dex put on weight when he was getting to many calorie laden meats, (mainly because our supplier didnt have any chicken one month) I reduced these to chicken, tripe (low cal), more boney meals et, along with other meats on occassion and his weight stabilised.
> 
> I also think many of us overfeed as we no longer weigh meals and its easy just to chuck em a chunk of something without thinking it is probably 2 meals worth of food.....


I agree with this. The trouble with raw feeding is that no meal is ever exact, or the same as the next, so it's very difficult to keep a track of the calories and fat content going into your dog. At least with kibble every bowlful is virtually the same.

When I switched back to kibble I initially started off on low protein as I was experimenting and treading very carefully around Flynn's seizures. They either had JWB Turkey and Rice Senior or Burns Chicken and Oats or something like that. They dropped weight very easily so now that they are at a good weight I have chosen TOTW and Acana (one dropped too much weight so i'm feeding him up a bit now). After reading that dogs, especially older ones, need good quality protein and a certain amount of fat in their diet I changed to the grain free varieties.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

I've started ruby Gsd on this last week, I find it's easy as it's all done for me.
Hopefully she won't get fat because looking at the description it's all weighed out and has % of what's in it.
She gets 330g x 2 a day.
Will see what happens and I will weigh her in a months time.
She's currently 33kg.

Chicken formula - Adult - Nutriment


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> A few weeks back I posted this thread about trying to get weight off on a raw diet as I've been struggling with Indie's weight.
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-heal...-raw-diet.html?highlight=weight+loss+raw+food
> 
> This week I weighed all 3 of my dogs and they have all gained 2-3 kg  Colt I think will lose it again reasonably easily once his achillies injury is better and he can run off lead again (he has been on a lead since last October) and is very close to finishing his rehab now. However Arthur has now got some issues going on with his elbows which are being investigated and the vet suggested trying to get a bit of weight off him. Indie is just over 40 kg now which is far too much for her..


Just goes to show there really is no one size fits all. A bit unfair that you've got 3 dogs and raw doesn't seem to be a good fit for any one of them - but for 3 different reasons!

I've been worrying about one of mine on raw. We can't get consistently firm poo from her no matter what we feed, although to be fair this was no different on kibble, and the advantage of raw is that there's a lot less of it to worry about.

Having consulted a pro-raw vet, the consensus is that it's likely to be stress/adrenalin as she's a nervous, excitable thing and she looks and acts perfectly fit and it's not like she's having accidents but is still very regular in only going once, occasionally twice a day.

I'm relieved to say the other dog is a doddle though. If I was having problems with both I'd probably start to question whether raw really was worth the additional freezers, planning and prep, but for me 50% of my dogs are trouble free and both do give the appearance of thriving at least!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

blade100 said:


> I've started ruby Gsd on this last week, I find it's easy as it's all done for me.
> Hopefully she won't get fat because looking at the description it's all weighed out and has % of what's in it.
> She gets 330g x 2 a day.
> Will see what happens and I will weigh her in a months time.
> ...


We started off on something very similar (Natural Instinct) but found it was all a bit soft with no texture. Not much good for keeping teeth clean and my boys went off it very quickly so I started adding chunks of beef or lamb and cooked offal/heart (reducing amount of mince of course) then carcass/ribs reducing amount of mince again to keep under their weight allowance for the day. 660g per day for Indie who was 37 kg when she started no raw would be way too much yet she still gained 3 kg.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

PennyGSD said:


> Just goes to show there really is no one size fits all. A bit unfair that you've got 3 dogs and raw doesn't seem to be a good fit for any one of them - but for 3 different reasons!
> 
> I've been worrying about one of mine on raw. We can't get consistently firm poo from her no matter what we feed, although to be fair this was no different on kibble, and the advantage of raw is that there's a lot less of it to worry about.
> 
> ...


You are right no one size fits all. There are lots of good things about feeding raw but quite a few drawbacks too, each of mine had a slightly different problem although weight gain was common to all 3. Arthur did have trouble with his poo, sometimes constipated and straining and other times quite runny. Although they all did less volume than on the kibble they were on before I haven't found they are doing any more on MWH than they were on raw and its not so variable.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I started using Natural Instinct in February and am very pleased. However, the 2%-3% RDA was too much for her even tho she as a good 1-2 hrs off lead exercise a day. 1.8% is about right. 
I have to continually check the amount I feed her to keep her on track


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

If he was constipated that would suggest too much bone.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

blade100 said:


> If he was constipated that would suggest too much bone.


Not sure if you are replying to me  If so, I should have made it clear I mean't "keeping her on track" weight wise. Her output is fine  but thank you


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Not sure if you are replying to me  If so, I should have made it clear I mean't "keeping her on track" weight wise. Her output is fine  but thank you


No it was to rottiepointerhouse


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

blade100 said:


> No it was to rottiepointerhouse


Oops sorry I'm such a ditsy these days


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

blade100 said:


> If he was constipated that would suggest too much bone.


Thanks I understand that - did a lot of research before starting raw - what I'm saying is its very hard to regulate with raw as a previous poster said no two meals are exactly the same. So if I was feeding him a higher bone meal such as ribs I'd make sure he had more offal to balance it out but it didn't always balance out and sometimes he was constipated. A chicken carcass for instance varies in size and therefore amount of bone. Slightly too much offal and he would get the runs, duck carcass also gave him the runs despite the bone content. So far on the Millies Wolfheart he has been just right no constipation and no runs.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks for pointing this thread out RPH  
Glad i'm not the only one switching back from raw 
I just need a better kibble after this one if we decide to not go back to raw  [email protected] didn't exactly have amazing choice & we desperately needed something there & then  settled for Wainwrights but need to look up some 'better' ones (the green ones on the dry food index - no greens were stocked in our [email protected]  )


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

My son was feeding Wainwrights until they stopped the one he used.

He changed to Eden, a much better food and it works out cheaper in the long run.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm trying ours on 'Dogs Dinner' from Big Dog World. Really impressed so far, and minimal waste from the other end .
Delivery was very fast as well.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

JenSteWillow said:


> Thanks for pointing this thread out RPH
> Glad i'm not the only one switching back from raw
> I just need a better kibble after this one if we decide to not go back to raw  [email protected] didn't exactly have amazing choice & we desperately needed something there & then  settled for Wainwrights but need to look up some 'better' ones (the green ones on the dry food index - no greens were stocked in our [email protected]  )


No problem, hope you find something that suits your dogs. I've been very impressed with Millies Wolfheart, the ingredients, the improvement in my GSP's coat within a couple of days, they have remained as calm as they were on raw (no crazy behaviour as on other kibbles in the past) and their poos are good. I'm pretty sure the two boys have dropped weight but will have to weigh Indie to see if she has. Also the service is excellent. Delivery is free (and comes within a couple of days) unless you want next day when there is a small charge.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

JenSteWillow said:


> Thanks for pointing this thread out RPH
> Glad i'm not the only one switching back from raw
> I just need a better kibble after this one if we decide to not go back to raw  [email protected] didn't exactly have amazing choice & we desperately needed something there & then  settled for Wainwrights but need to look up some 'better' ones (the green ones on the dry food index - *no greens were stocked in our [email protected]*  )


I always consider PAH to be a mediocre pet store aimed at average pet owners with average pet dogs, you'll never find anything amazing on sale in there, food included. I'm lucky because there are plenty of Kennelgate stores round here (they originated in my home town) and they sell Orijen, TOTW, Acana and Lily's Kitchen so a good range of premium grain free dog foods.

It's rare I buy anything from PAH, they just dont stock high end things.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I always consider PAH to be a mediocre pet store aimed at average pet owners with average pet dogs


Poor wording there me thinks I dont mind being average, but there's nothing average about my dog :001_rolleyes::biggrin5::biggrin5::biggrin5:


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

I switched back to kibble in 2007 for health reasons of my dog at that time, I don't use a premium one, just Skinners Field & trial duck, their out put is certainly less on kibble than it was on raw, their health is 100%.
I previously fed raw for 15 years, my pockets are certainly better off now kibble is less expensive.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> I always consider PAH to be a mediocre pet store aimed at average pet owners with average pet dogs, you'll never find anything amazing on sale in there, food included. I'm lucky because there are plenty of Kennelgate stores round here (they originated in my home town) and they sell Orijen, TOTW, Acana and Lily's Kitchen so a good range of premium grain free dog foods.
> 
> It's rare I buy anything from PAH, they just dont stock high end things.


They have fishmongers dry dog food there that's grain free.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Poor wording there me thinks I dont mind being average, but there's nothing average about my dog :001_rolleyes::biggrin5::biggrin5::biggrin5:


I was thinking more along the lines of PAH sell nothing that is specialist. They sell mediocre beds, mediocre leads, mediocre toys, mediocre clothing etc which is all well and good for pet dogs. If you wanted something a bit more serious, even if you are an enthusiast rather than a serious competitor or trainer, you just wouldnt find anything of use in PAH.



Margelli said:


> They have fishmongers dry dog food there that's grain free.


I'd consider that to be mid range not top end stuff. They also sell JWB turkey and veg which is grain free but again, just middle of the road food.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Well Blade was at the vets last night to have his paw checked up.

I am happy to say he's put on 2.3KG since switching from raw to kibble. The vet mentioned how well he was looking and that he is obviously a very healthy and happy dog.

The only "problem" I seem to be having at the moment is Blade is starting to refuse meals ( being a fuss pot ) so I am looking into feeding both wet and dry food together.

I bought some Wainwrights Grain Free trays last night and put one in with his food and he wolfed it down.

Wainwright's Grain Free Wet rated 4.8 out of 5! All About Dog Food

Scores 4.8 on all about dog food however will have to see how feasible it is feeding both dry and wet.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Thats good news.

My lot will be weighed this afternoon when we go to the vets so I'm praying they will all have lost some weight to make this trial worth while. I've still been giving them a small amount of raw mince which I might cut out and change for something like Wainwrights grain free but depends on whether they have lost weight or not. Fingers crossed.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thats good news.
> 
> My lot will be weighed this afternoon when we go to the vets so I'm praying they will all have lost some weight to make this trial worth while. I've still been giving them a small amount of raw mince which I might cut out and change for something like Wainwrights grain free but depends on whether they have lost weight or not. Fingers crossed.


Hope it all goes well it's bizarre isn't it that we are having opposite problems?

Just shows how different our dogs dietary needs can be. I gave away the remainder of my raw from the little freezer ( was about 15lbs of mixed minces and 3kg of salmon chunks)

These dogs eat better than I do! I have been tempted to give the new Millies endurance a try but unsure yet.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Io has been getting the WW grain free wet trays twice a day in her kongs for a few months now - she loves them.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I tried the WW grain free trays but it gave my lot the runs strangely. I tend to buy Butchers Tripe for their wet but at the moment they are on Forthglade trays which suits them well.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Leanne77 said:


> I tried the WW grain free trays but it gave my lot the runs strangely. I tend to buy Butchers Tripe for their wet but at the moment they are on Forthglade trays which suits them well.


I only gave Blade the WW last night and he didn't seem to have the runs this morning but time will in fact tell. He's the one with the dicky stomach, the girls have iron guts for the most part as does Taz.

Think it will be a lot of experimenting till I find the perfect balance however I'm so pleased about Blade's weight gain


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Ruby has wainwrights grain free trays in her arden grange.
We did try the wainwrights grain free dry but found her to poo more on that even though we weighed it out. 
Her poos are good on the WW wet grain free.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

You could add a bit of water to the wet food and then mix in the kibble. The wet would go a bit further and less chance they will pick it out 

This thread is making me feel I should try a bit of kibble again..............


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Mum2Heidi said:


> You could add a bit of water to the wet food and then mix in the kibble. The wet would go a bit further and less chance they will pick it out
> 
> This thread is making me feel I should try a bit of kibble again..............


Thanks for the tip! I know a lot of people who are swapping back to kibble at the moment.

I have just found it easier to regulate Blade's weight with kibble I was really struggling to get weight on him with raw.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I was finding raw a little messy and frustrating and was even more annoying in the warmer months! Was probably quite a good thing I could no longer get it from my supplier as my cat especially looks so much better coat-wise and his diet now consists of whiskas, lilys kitchen and chicken wings!

Dog doesn't look much different as I've never had an issue with her weight, but she still gets the odd carcass a few times a week. I now have her on plaque off as well as brushing her teeth as I am a little teeth paranoid.

She is def farting more though


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I was finding raw a little messy and frustrating and was even more annoying in the warmer months! Was probably quite a good thing I could no longer get it from my supplier as my cat especially looks so much better coat-wise and his diet now consists of whiskas, lilys kitchen and chicken wings!
> 
> Dog doesn't look much different as I've never had an issue with her weight, but she still gets the odd carcass a few times a week. I now have her on plaque off as well as brushing her teeth as I am a little teeth paranoid.
> 
> She is def farting more though


Skyla is farting more however Blade is farting less :lol: Blade used to fart a lot on raw, every time he jumped up or moved quickly a trump escaped however it is much less now.

Skyla is very hard to tell as her coat is so thick and dense she is like a ball of wool but I've noticed a huge difference in Blade


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Skyla is farting more however Blade is farting less :lol: Blade used to fart a lot on raw, every time he jumped up or moved quickly a trump escaped however it is much less now.
> 
> Skyla is very hard to tell as her coat is so thick and dense she is like a ball of wool but I've noticed a huge difference in Blade


Io never used to fart on raw but now :yikes: she often makes loud ones as well :lol: dirty girl! 
Good though you noticed a different in Blade!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I only gave Blade the WW last night and he didn't seem to have the runs this morning but time will in fact tell. He's the one with the dicky stomach, the girls have iron guts for the most part as does Taz.
> 
> Think it will be a lot of experimenting till I find the perfect balance however I'm so pleased about Blade's weight gain


I found if they had the odd tray, it didnt affect them, but if they had one each day then it did (I share one tray between 3 dogs for the evening meal, so never a huge amount of wet.)


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Leanne77 said:


> I found if they had the odd tray, it didnt affect them, but if they had one each day then it did (I share one tray between 3 dogs for the evening meal, so never a huge amount of wet.)


Ahh I will keep an eye on it, thanks for the info :thumbup1:

I have always given mine the odd tray of webbox natural but it always seems to be out of stock in asda when I visit. I noticed ASDA are also now stocking the beef variety


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

So the moment of truth - big drum roll

No change :confused5: Well Indie has lost about 0.5 kg but the boys are the same which surprises me as they both look trimmer with more obvious waists but the scales don't lie so not sure what to make of that. Think I'll give it another couple of weeks, might swap the raw mince for something else too and see if that helps. Very frustrating


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So the moment of truth - big drum roll
> 
> No change :confused5: Well Indie has lost about 0.5 kg but the boys are the same which surprises me as they both look trimmer with more obvious waists but the scales don't lie so not sure what to make of that. Think I'll give it another couple of weeks, might swap the raw mince for something else too and see if that helps. Very frustrating


Maybe the boys are converting it into muscle rather than storing it as fat? - just a thought...but that is a bit annoying, especially as they are looking better...


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> Maybe the boys are converting it into muscle rather than storing it as fat? - just a thought...but that is a bit annoying, especially as they are looking better...


I thought the same thing but couldnt explain it as well

When I put Heidi onto raw, she became more lean and muscular, looked slimmer without the podge but the same weight


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> Maybe the boys are converting it into muscle rather than storing it as fat? - just a thought...but that is a bit annoying, especially as they are looking better...


It's interesting, a friend of mine took a foster dog on ( a sibe ) who was grossly overweight. He weighed in at 39KG he's had him 4 weeks and he's lost about 1.4KG however he looks like he has lost a lot more.

He now has a visible waist and is looking more like a Sibe and less like a hippo the vet has said similar, he is using the food to convert into muscle rather than storing it as fat.

Before 07/09/2014










After 04/10/2014


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## stopdogbarking (Sep 19, 2014)

I feed mostly ready made food, in raw food ,mostly mice


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Io has been back on kibble a month since raw and her weight is exactly the same, infact she's been the same weight since March


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Haven't managed to get back to the vets to weigh my lot but have been measuring them.

5 weeks into my trial and finally starting to see some significant difference. Indie has lost 1.5 inches in total from around her chest and 1 inch from her waist. Arthur has also lost 1 inch from his waist. Colt is much the same but he had the least amount to lose anyway. 

I've pretty much decided to stick with the MWH with a bit of wet food although have changed that from raw mince to tinned Lukullus. 

Now I'm going to have to try and sell my freezer full of raw


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Haven't managed to get back to the vets to weigh my lot but have been measuring them.
> 
> 5 weeks into my trial and finally starting to see some significant difference. Indie has lost 1.5 inches in total from around her chest and 1 inch from her waist. Arthur has also lost 1 inch from his waist. Colt is much the same but he had the least amount to lose anyway.
> 
> ...


My last freezer was sold today and someone is coming to collect it.

I've swapped to millies Wolfheart endurance and Cambrian Natural Menu as I think the grains in lukullus dry are making Taz itch. The Cambrian Natural is pretty much like naturediet but cheaper!! Much cheaper! I'm happy with how things are going here too


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Oh and couldn't resist an update on Diesel who goes to his forever home tomorrow

Doesn't he look great ?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Good luck in your new home Diesel and yes he does look great :thumbup:

I'm keeping the actual freezer its just the food I want to sell. I'm not on facebook or ebay so have no idea how to go about it. I'll ask around a bit to start with though.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I strongly recommend Green Dog, it's a holistic dog food, since we put Dillon on it 7 months ago he now eats all his food, his coat is lovely and his weight is steady. I feed 200gms twice a day.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Good luck in your new home Diesel and yes he does look great :thumbup:
> 
> I'm keeping the actual freezer its just the food I want to sell. I'm not on facebook or ebay so have no idea how to go about it. I'll ask around a bit to start with though.


Can you not post on here and see if anyone localish is interested? Xx


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> Can you not post on here and see if anyone localish is interested? Xx


I suppose I could post in the classified section- need to go through the freezer and see exactly what I've got first.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

My freezer is still full of lamb ribs / chicken carcasses  but main food is MWH and WW grain free trays


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

That's great RPH! :thumbup: 

They'll be looking lovely and svelte in no time 

I'd also suggest trying on here to get rid of the raw, there's bound to be someone nearby who'd come and collect a load. And you can always keep a few bits for when you fancy giving them a change. And bones are great for keeping them occupied.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I will be buying some Eden Holistic dog food next week, it's gets 5/5 on the All About Dog Food website. It's British and cheaper than the likes of Acana and TOTW so will see how my lot do on that.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been pondering whether to change Arrow on to part commercial food (not decided between wet and dry, probably wet) because he needs to gain weight. Sometimes the ease of commercial food is so tempting, but Jake couldn't be changed to commercial food so I wouldn't ever do it fully. I just don't know though...

I do love raw though, so Arrow would only ever be on part commercial food.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

lozzibear said:


> I have been pondering whether to change Arrow on to part commercial food (not decided between wet and dry, probably wet) because he needs to gain weight. Sometimes the ease of commercial food is so tempting, but Jake couldn't be changed to commercial food so I wouldn't ever do it fully. I just don't know though...
> 
> I do love raw though, so Arrow would only ever be on part commercial food.


If you are concerned about his weight it's worth a go. Don't be so hung up on having to feed him raw he may just not be suited to it


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> If you are concerned about his weight it's worth a go. Don't be so hung up on having to feed him raw he may just not be suited to it


Up until recently, he has done brilliantly on raw. And I am not sure yet if raw is even related to his weight. He was wean onto part raw and then went full raw shortly after coming home with me. So he has been on it pretty much his whole life and he grown into a healthy dog so I do think it suits him. I just wonder if just now, he is getting enough to keep weight on from all his extra activities this summer. I don't want to over feed him either in case he gets the squits. I am also cautious because he has started agility again and that will burn alot.

I will also always feed Jake raw so Arrow would be mighty annoyed if Jake was getting raw and he was getting a commercial food lol. Arrow loves any food, commercial or raw but raw will always win hands down lol. I did get him some WW trays the other day (I am low on bone free meals until I get to the abattoir tomorrow) so I might just continue with them... he does love them. If I try him with dry, it would be MWH because I have used that as treats and for when I am low on food, and he really enjoyed that.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Time for a little update as its 2 months since I started the trial.

*Pros*

They have all lost weight on kibble although not a significant amount.
They all enjoy eating the Millies Wolfheart.
The boys in particular have better coat condition.
Less preparation time and mess.

*Cons*

Indie is more manic on kibble, she gets quite grumpy and nasty with the boys.
They all miss their bones or carcass after dinner, nothing settles them down quite like it.
I miss being involved in making up their meals, sticking a handful of kibble in the bowl is not as rewarding.

So we now have a variety going on 

Indie is back on raw. She has freeflow minces, steamed vegetables and offal twice a week.

Arthur is on half kibble with raw mince added.

Colt is on mainly kibble with some bits of raw

and they all get a small amount of bone or carcass after dinner. I'm monitoring the amount much more carefully so instead of them having a whole rack of ribs each they get one rack between them (about 80g each) and on the days when they get chicken carcass they get very little else for dinner.

It took 5-7 days for Indie to calm back down to her usual lovely sweet nature.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Time for a little update as its 2 months since I started the trial.
> 
> *Pros*
> 
> ...


It's what works best for you all


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## ruwise (Aug 6, 2014)

Good to know that you can do a bit of both. I want to feed my pup mainly kibble as it is easier for training purposes and I intend to make her work for all her food but she has been fed on a mixed diet and I know she loves her chicken wings so I wanted to keep up with this.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I think it's so interesting how different dogs react to different feeds, and only by experimenting can you find the best combination for each individual.

My 2 get a mix of loads, Muffin has mainly MWH and wet food, with a few raw bits thrown in now and then. Nooka gets mainly MWH but with chunks of raw for variety and because she likes bones, and there certainly isn't anything like a happy, crunching dog in the evening


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mine are going fantastic on raw! Coats are super shiny, KT was red when she got here, but if it didn't work for them they would be moved on to kibble.


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