# First Time for both



## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I have a question about breeding. I have a male and female living in the same home. The female is in heat and appears to be ready. She is flagging and the male seems interested and has been sniffing and licking her but does not seem to be aggressive enough. Any suggestions?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I would think she isn't ready to mate yet - I think it's around day 14 of her season but bitches vary. Am sure someone will come along who knows more. If they are both maidens I don't think it's a good idea for them to mate, but then I don't actually breed so can't be sure.


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi and welcome  if you have never bred before! why are you breeding now? and what breed of dogs do you have? if you don't mind me asking. Angie


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Often males who live with females won't mate. If the female is the bossier of the two she may not respect him and he may know that.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I would think she isn't ready to mate yet - I think it's around day 14 of her season but bitches vary. Am sure someone will come along who knows more. *If they are both maidens I don't think it's a good idea for them to mate*, but then I don't actually breed so can't be sure.


At least one of them should have experience elsewhere first. Why are you breeding? Lots of people are finding it impossible to find homes for puppies these days.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Angie2011 said:


> Hi and welcome  if you have never bred before! why are you breeding now? and what breed of dogs do you have? if you don't mind me asking. Angie


I have had King Charles Cavaliers for about 6 years. I lost 1 with heart problems, I have 1 that is akc but spaded just like the first one, and now have these 2. The only reason I have decided to breed is for family and friends. Its not for profit. All the future puppies would go to people I trust, not just anyone. I have a question if anyone can answer, not to start anything but I always read"leave it to the professionals" but didn't they start off and have a first time at breeding before they became the professional?


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

firsttime said:


> I have had King Charles Cavaliers for about 6 years. I lost 1 with heart problems, I have 1 that is akc but spaded just like the first one, and now have these 2. The only reason I have decided to breed is for family and friends. Its not for profit. All the future puppies would go to people I trust, not just anyone. I have a question if anyone can answer, not to start anything but I always read"leave it to the professionals" but didn't they start off and have a first time at breeding before they became the professional?


Yes they did start off somewhere. But there are alot of Health tests, making sure you mate a good pair and etc to consider. I hope an experienced breeder comes along soon for you.

Out of interest what do you plan on doing once/if you get that 1st litter? Will that be it or will you be going for another litter?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I have had King Charles Cavaliers for about 6 years. I lost 1 with heart problems, I have 1 that is akc but spaded just like the first one, and now have these 2. The only reason I have decided to breed is for family and friends. Its not for profit. All the future puppies would go to people I trust, not just anyone. I have a question if anyone can answer, not to start anything but I always read"leave it to the professionals" but didn't they start off and have a first time at breeding before they became the professional?


Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but they should start with a degree of knowledge and some hands on experience gained from a mentor before even embarking on breeding their own litter. These are living creatures not things you can just 'try' to see how it goes.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

After the first litter they both we be fixed. I have been in contact who grooms my dog and has been in business for 40 years and also breeds. I spoke with her last Friday for over an hour and that wasn't the first time either. I have read ever article about breeding that I get my hands on. My intentions are not to offend anyone, just looking for different opinions about my first question.


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi there! i understand you saying everyone has to start somewhere! and if you do want to become a professional breeder, are you prepared to do all that is needed to make sure you breed happy healthy puppies? ie: research the breed, breed from the best of stock (so to speak) as this breed already have health issues, have financial support should things go wrong! I may be wrong but from the question you posted, imo you may not of done enough research on breeding. And if your only reason for breeding from these dogs is to supply friends/family with puppies! :nono: then let them buy from a professional breeder. Unless you are prepared to consider ALL of the above. I'm sure there will be excellent/professional breeders along to point you in the rite direction. good luck!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

You say about the male not being aggressive enough My Stud (who is experienced) is the most gentle, loving male to his ladies. If he could, he'd wine and dine the girls before mating He's a proper gentleman.

If the male is not experienced, then he may not know that she is ready for mating. Maybe she isn't ready? Who knows? How old is your male? How old is your female? 

As for a male not being able to cover a female living in his home; definitely not the case here. My boy has never missed with my girls. The difficulty is keeping them separated when they aren't to get up to mischief.

As has been said; DON'T even go there with breeding for one litter for family and friends. Far better to find a good breeder that knows the breed/breeding inside out. Without a Mentor that you can call on 24/7 for help and advice during whelping, I would definitely not go ahead! Doesn't matter how much information you've read, trust me, there is something different crop up every time. Breeding isn't all "text book" I can assure you. 

Also, if you do go ahead, make sure you have at least £1000 in your bank account because if there are complications and a c-section is necessary, this could cost lots. At the end of the day, you could end up with large Vet bills and not a single live puppy.

Don't think I'm judging at all. I just want to warn you of all the possibilities because some people get this cutesey idea of a whelping box full of healthy puppies when, in reality, it could be a whole different story.

If you have made your mind up and you have a Mentor that you can trust to help you, I would suggest you read "Book of the Bitch" - I've read it front to back several times - full of useful information.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> You say about the male not being aggressive enough My Stud (who is experienced) is the most gentle, loving male to his ladies. If he could, he'd wine and dine the girls before mating He's a proper gentleman.
> 
> If the male is not experienced, then he may not know that she is ready for mating. Maybe she isn't ready? Who knows? How old is your male? How old is your female?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input. Like I said I do have someone to call 24/7 if need be and I have her coming over to help. I just was looking for other input from other people. I understand the amount of money involved to breed and raise a litter. I have a vet that both have gone to, and were checked and was told they are healthy and fit. I, should say we have no children in the area and our dogs are our babies. I would not do anything to harm one of my pets, be it dogs, birds,or my fish. I understand what most are saying about buying from a so called professional but I also first hand saw my Akc dog pass from heart problems. I have bought a dog from a byb and no problems. This does not make them better than the professional by no means. All it does is say you take a chance from who ever you buy from. Another example is the 2 year warranty from heart problems. Sad part is on average it takes 3-4 years normally for heart problems to develop. I have done my home work with this breed and have talked to as many people as I can about this topic. I always thought the more questions the better the results.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> As for a male not being able to cover a female living in his home; definitely not the case here. My boy has never missed with my girls. The difficulty is keeping them separated when they aren't to get up to mischief.


Same here - but I do know of many that won't.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

Have the correct health tests (not checks) been done? If you dont mind me asking.


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## mrswoodwoose (Jan 23, 2011)

I am still wondering why you wish to breed more dogs into this world when there are thousands that are homeless and thousands that are put down every year. If your friends and family really wanted a dog, they would already have done so and aren't "waiting" for you to supply them. Also, please don't forget that people do tend to say Oh yes I'll have one, but when the time comes it's another story. I understand that you are a loving and caring owner, but you must see that we have a massive overpopulation of unwanted pets and with the credit crunch, record numbers of animals are being abandoned (read any animal rescue website)

I would urge you to rethink as it seems that you are really doing this for yourself and not for the dogs and dogs-to-be. I wish you all the best with whatever you decide.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

How old are your cavaliers? They should be over 2 and a half years old, and complementary colours also, so parti to parti, full to full.

Have they been heart and eye tested? And have you had them MRI'd (even though it's voluntary)?

Cavvies are very popular, but they are small pups and you have to watch them....


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Oh, gawd here we go again!!

How do you know your two dogs are a good match?? Simply owning two of the same breed isnt a reason for mating them. As already said, health testing etc is a must.

Sorry, but I get really irate when hearing of people putting two dogs together blindly, as it seem you are doing, when I research my stud dogs for years before making a decision, studying phenotype and genotype and what I want to gain from the mating and what I'm not prepared to compromise on re phenotype. Studying pedigrees is also part of my research.

Have you done all this???

And a novice breeder mating two dogs that have done this before could well be asking for trouble!! Could you cope if the dogs get stuck?? the bitch may well seriously go for the dog and vice versa. Do you know about the different types of matings and which one your dogs might/might not do? Slip mating, tie mating etc?

Are you prepared and able to provide 24/7 cover with mam and pups for at least the first 3 weeks, including through the night? What if you dont sell them all?? Are you able to take any pup at any time down the line if it needs re-homing?? Loads and loads of things to think about before breeding - hope you have thought of all this already.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I am only a pet owner.

I think if I were you I would reconsider not breeding from your pet dogs.

From what the experienced breeders have said it's not an easy as you think and is fraught with risks.

You are also breeding Cavaliers that do have health problems too.

To put your pets at potential risk for family and friends who may in the end decide not to have a pup isn't worth it IMHO. 
Risks aside it will also be costly to you too.

Why not just get them spayed and castrated and enjoy them as pets and let your family and friends buy one from a reputable breeder.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Do NOT trust family or friends when they say they will have one, when it comes to it they'll make excuses.

Maya had an accidental litter and Not One! person who said they wanted one ended up having one, all made excuses till they were blue in the face.

It's great you have a mentor but you have even said you lost a dog to heart problems, if you breed a dog without health tests any one of those pups you breed if not all could die because you failed to check something undiscoverd like both dogs could be carriers and the pups are at risk. Then what if one of those pups is also then bred on without it's health checks because the parents didn't have them and looked ok so must mean they are healthy and then breed from that dog who passes on unknown helath problems.


People are trying long and hard to clear this breed of it's health problems, you think what you are doing is right but if you don't do it correctly then you are one of the people responsable for the cavaliers ever long battle for health.


Either do it right or don't do it all and keep your dogs as pets like they were meant to be.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Posting and dashing because I want to go and sit in the sunshine and do a bit of work, but I would honestly reconsider your breeding plans for now. It's not enough to have someone on the end of the phone for someone as inexperienced as yourself, you would have been much better off sourcing a stud dog owner who could offer a complete stud dog service. There are a number of reasons perhaps why they're not mating, bitches ovulate at different times throughout their season, and some are not at all receptive, at any point, or at the point where they should be. Dogs sometimes aren't interested in mating, particularly, as has been said, with bitches they live with day in day out. 

There are a number of health tests for Cavs I believe, which you would be wise to make use of. In today's litigous society, should any genetic conditions crop up that could have been prevented by the use of a test, you may well end up being sued, even by your own family/friends. Pets can become an emotive issue. 

Please don't leave your dogs to mate, you are risking serious injury to one or both of them without having someone experienced at hand to help you. 

On the bright side, thanks for asking and actually absorbing the information offered, so many don't bother!


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi: you say once you have bred from these dog's that you are going to get them spayed/neutered if they are young and HEALTHY! dog's why would you do this? if you are looking to become a breeder!!!!  I am sorry if i am wrong BUT!! your reasons to breed from these dogs seam unfair to the breed. There are LOTS of reasons to breed from dog's!!BUT! first and utmost SHOULD be to the HEATH and well being of future dog's!!! not just a quick health check from a Vet, where most hereditary and underlining health issues would not show up. Also to BETTER the breed in question. I do not doubt you love your dog's! and THIS alone should tell you to do the best for your dog's to better their breed!! so i think a LOT more research is in order! good luck.


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

Are you prepared for the cost of a cesarean section should it be needed? Very expensive and will not be covered by insurance or the PDSA. 
Cavaliers have so many health issues see Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases especially the TOP 10: Cavalier Breeders' Worst Excuses page.
The Number One Worst Excuse Cavalier breeders use for not health testing:

#1. There is no [insert genetic defect here] in my cavaliers' bloodlines! 
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Every cavalier bloodline is infected with all of these severe genetic defects.

Please think twice before you breed these dogs.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Nice to see the forum hasn't changed in the year or so i've been gone.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

candysmum said:


> Nice to see the forum hasn't changed in the year or so i've been gone.


Sad to see "some" people's attitudes haven't changed.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Sad to see "some" people's attitudes haven't changed.


which means what?


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

candysmum said:


> Nice to see the forum hasn't changed in the year or so i've been gone.


I dont see the issue...all dogs should be health tested and the OP should be using a stud dog complete with a knowledgeable stud dog owner to help her.

Only cavaliers proven to be in the best health should be used there are already enough problems in the breed. So without the correct tests there is no way of knowing.

There are many aspects of breeding people do not consider so its only right as this is a "pet forum" dedicated to helping people that people point her in the right direction.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

candysmum said:


> Nice to see the forum hasn't changed in the year or so i've been gone.


No - it's still a forum that cares about the health and welfare of animals.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by candysmum
> Nice to see the forum hasn't changed in the year or so i've been gone.
> 
> No - it's still a forum that cares about the health and welfare of animals.


And good breeding practices with a well through out and researched litter.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont see the issue...all dogs should be health tested and the OP should be using a stud dog complete with a knowledgeable stud dog owner to help her.
> 
> Only cavaliers proven to be in the best health should be used there are already enough problems in the breed. So without the correct tests there is no way of knowing.
> 
> There are many aspects of breeding people do not consider so its only right as this is a "pet forum" dedicated to helping people that people point her in the right direction.


I'm not saying that they shouldn't be. All dogs should be tested etc etc No one knows ALL the facts and thats my point, if someone is goign to breed they are going to do it regardless of the advice you give them if they are that determined. so all help is going to be needed but why scare them off the forum by assuming...... Thats all i am saying and it has been said many times before.

Its sad to see that along with good advice are assumptions is all.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

candysmum said:


> I'm not saying that they shouldn't be. All dogs should be tested etc etc No one knows ALL the facts and thats my point, if someone is goign to breed they are going to do it regardless of the advice you give them if they are that determined. so all help is going to be needed but why scare them off the forum by assuming...... Thats all i am saying and it has been said many times before.
> 
> Its sad to see that along with good advice are assumptions is all.


I would rather waste.....what? 5mins typing out what they need to do in order to get it right than not say anything and another sick litter added to the world. 

The OP stated that it was just for family and friends and that her male was not aggressive enough with her bitch. So I do think its safe to say that the correct health tests have not been done. Maybe she didnt know about health tests in which case I am glad people have informed her of them and she clearly needs to do more re-search before bringing a litter into the world.

Its easy to make mistakes but if people are warning you of things you need to do before matings then there is no excuse for the "oh my god 3 of the 4 puppies have a heart problems and no one wants them" or whatever.

She clearly needs the help of a stud dog owner which she wont get because she is using her own dog. :blink:


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

I know most of you mean good. Some may be breeders and some may not. I understand about the heart test and others. Everyone says either get one from the pound or go to a breeder. First off the pound or places like that, I believe do not give a quality check . I wonder how many heart test are done on Cavaliers in these places? I keep getting told how expensive it is to have a litter, the problems that occur and what could go wrong. *My question for anyone to answer is if were so over populated with dogs than why are the news papers and internet filled with dogs for sale and these are not just from byb. * It was a question at the beginning I had and am now being basted for asking it!!! What, should I go out and spend $4000 for a male and female and then say I want to breed for a living?


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

firsttime said:


> I know most of you mean good. Some may be breeders and some may not. I understand about the heart test and others. Everyone says either get one from the pound or go to a breeder. First off the pound or places like that, I believe do not give a quality check . I wonder how many heart test are done on Cavaliers in these places? I keep getting told how expensive it is to have a litter, the problems that occur and what could go wrong. *My question for anyone to answer is if were so over populated with dogs than why are the news papers and internet filled with dogs for sale and these are not just from byb. * It was a question at the beginning I had and am now being basted for asking it!!! *What, should I go out and spend $4000 for a male and female and then say I want to breed for a living*?


Nobody is having a go at all, they are just giving you advice, which is the reason I am guessing you asked the question. And doing things the "right" way could indeed be the cheaper option in the long run both in money and heartache.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

firsttime said:


> I know most of you mean good. Some may be breeders and some may not. I understand about the heart test and others. Everyone says either get one from the pound or go to a breeder. First off the pound or places like that, I believe do not give a quality check . I wonder how many heart test are done on Cavaliers in these places? I keep getting told how expensive it is to have a litter, the problems that occur and what could go wrong. *My question for anyone to answer is if were so over populated with dogs than why are the news papers and internet filled with dogs for sale and these are not just from byb. * It was a question at the beginning I had and am now being basted for asking it!!! What, should I go out and spend $4000 for a male and female and then say I want to breed for a living?


Just because some breeders do not health test does not mean that thats a reason for you not to.

Also you have just asked a question which you should be asking yourself, IF there are so many cavalier litters looking for a home why not point your family and friends in the direction of them instead of breeding your own litter?

And just to point up on the bit about "breeding for a living". If you do it right its not a living at all, you would have to have a fair few dogs to breed for a living and many people who do breed for a living cut corners such as health tests so they can keep money.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

firsttime said:


> I have had King Charles Cavaliers for about 6 years. I lost 1 with heart problems, I have 1 that is akc but spaded just like the first one, and now have these 2. The only reason I have decided to breed is for family and friends. Its not for profit. All the future puppies would go to people I trust, not just anyone. I have a question if anyone can answer, not to start anything but I always read"leave it to the professionals" but didn't they start off and have a first time at breeding before they became the professional?


I am sorry to hear about your previous cavalier. Heart Mitral valve disease is found in half of all cavaliers by age 5 and nearly all by age 10. Syringomyelia is also widespread and can cause pain and possible paralysis. Hip Dysplasia can effect about 1 out of 3, Bracycephalic airway obstruction. is also common.
Eye problems are also common. Most of the hereditary disease you can have tests and screening for. If you have not had the health tests and screening done, it may be an idea to have them carried out before breeding. I know that you said you are breeding for family and friends, but health testing and screening prior to mating (if you havent already) May save your friends and family the heatbreak that you had with your own cavalier, and may put your mind at rest that you have given your pups the healthiest start possible.

Cavalier health organisation, has a very good website on cavalier health, that may help you. I have enclosed the link.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

firsttime said:


> I know most of you mean good. Some may be breeders and some may not. I understand about the heart test and others. Everyone says either get one from the pound or go to a breeder. First off the pound or places like that, I believe do not give a quality check . I wonder how many heart test are done on Cavaliers in these places? I keep getting told how expensive it is to have a litter, the problems that occur and what could go wrong. *My question for anyone to answer is if were so over populated with dogs than why are the news papers and internet filled with dogs for sale and these are not just from byb. * It was a question at the beginning I had and am now being basted for asking it!!! What, should I go out and spend $4000 for a male and female and then say I want to breed for a living?


Perhaps that is why they are in the pound in the first place because they do have problems through breeders not doing checks in the first place 

No one is getting at you on this forum they ar ejust pointing out that of all the breeds the Cavalier is one of the breeds that do have many really bad health issues .

How would you feel if you had pup and some of them ended up with the horrific Syringomyelia disorder that causes the dog severe stress and pain ?
or a dog thet has to be put on medication for the rest of its life not only affecting the dog but the owners and their finances which may lead them to give up the dog and it would also end up in the pound ?

If you are going to breed and you say you have somone who has knowledge , this alone is not enough and you yourself must be responsible for getting the dogs checked for these breeding faults and also look in ti their pedigrees to see that they are a suitable match.

I am now going to say something and I do not want you to take offence but are your dogs a good specimen of the breed in their conformation and temperament ? we all believe our dogs are the best but that may not be the case and you need to get somone who is an epert on your breed to tell you that as they can advise you better than anyone .

Hearing advice that you do not want to hear can be offputting but we are all just animal lovers and care about the welfare of them all. I know that you are probably one too so take on the advice and get checks done and seek advice from more that one breeder/ expert then hopefully things will work out and you will then be a responsible breeder who has a litter of good quality healthy pups


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

You say your groomer has bred dogs in the past and will advise you

One thing that occurs to me hun ... why havent they told you that you will need to do all the proper health checks and laid out all the pitfalls and bad things that could happen to you and your dogs and your finances ?

any decent mentor would make sure that the person knew all the bad aspects of breeding before starting in on the benefits of it ... I would imagine so anyway , im not a breeder and never plan to be so im just guessing


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

I really hope you're not taking offense at all the responses you've been receiving. But it's not a breeding support group! Or happypuppykitty rainbow land. Some of the breeding stories are downright harrowing. TBH I don't know how people get through it.


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## Alanbits (May 20, 2010)

Hello,
Nice Info.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

No-one is trying to get at you, but we just want to make sure you are doing the best for your dogs. Cavalier's have so many health problems, it's mad. Mine hasn't anything wrong at the moment, but she is insured just in case something happens when she gets older 

Like I asked earlier, how old are both of your dogs, and what colours are they?


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Mood point, they tied last night.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

firsttime said:


> Mood point, they tied last night.


It's actually 'moot point' and 'lambasted'.

What a sad, sad world, yet more pups possibly being born into the world. One dog per hour is put to sleep every day by one charity alone in the UK, and you decide to bring more unhealth tested dogs into the world. I had hoped you'd listen to the good advice of people on here, at least we're honest, we're not gonna just say, yeah, what the heck, puppies are cute and you've got homes line up for them all, so why not. We actually understand on here the dire situation rescue organisations are in, and the need for ANY breeder to health test appropriately, and only breed a litter for a good reason. That is from dogs that are proven either in the show ring, or working, and the breeder usually keeps a pup on to hopefully further their lines. It's pet breeders like you, that are filling up rescue organisations, and taking the lives of animals. Think about that when looking at your pups, you are not helping by breeding, you are making the situation worse.

I shake my head in disbelief that people can be so selfish and not think about the lives of the animals that rely on us, it's a sad, sad world.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's actually 'moot point' and 'lambasted'.
> 
> What a sad, sad world, yet more pups possibly being born into the world. One dog per hour is put to sleep every day by one charity alone in the UK, and you decide to bring more unhealth tested dogs into the world. I had hoped you'd listen to the good advice of people on here, at least we're honest, we're not gonna just say, yeah, what the heck, puppies are cute and you've got homes line up for them all, so why not. We actually understand on here the dire situation rescue organisations are in, and the need for ANY breeder to health test appropriately, and only breed a litter for a good reason. That is from dogs that are proven either in the show ring, or working, and the breeder usually keeps a pup on to hopefully further their lines. It's pet breeders like you, that are filling up rescue organisations, and taking the lives of animals. Think about that when looking at your pups, you are not helping by breeding, you are making the situation worse.
> 
> I shake my head in disbelief that people can be so selfish and not think about the lives of the animals that rely on us, it's a sad, sad world.


Simply couldn't agree more ...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Yet another byb who doesn't care about anything but getting puppies.

What a surprise


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Yet another byb who doesn't care about anything but getting puppies.
> 
> What a surprise


Sadly it will be a matter of months before they are advertised on some free adds site for £500 each. How fast family and friends vanish when the time comes.:glare:

Then more un-knowing people come and buy one then 2 years later end up with vet fee's in the excess of £2k and a broken heart, and why? Because someone wants cute pups.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Can I just add that all you have to do is go on pets4homes and put in cavalier and pages up on pages of puppies and older dogs pop up. Surely family/friends would rather home one thats already here than risk your bitch's life?

Cute only lasts for about 2 days until you are up all night watching them to make sure they dont die then after weeks of no sleep they are chewing at your walls and carpet and pee'ing everywhere.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I think the OP is American??

But I take it their rescue situation is just as dire as ours???


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think the OP is American??
> 
> But I take it their rescue situation is just as dire as ours???


Doesn't matter a jot, they have equivalent sites and if the rescue situation isn't as bad, then it is worse 

Ignorance and greed is universal alas ...


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think the OP is American??
> 
> But I take it their rescue situation is just as dire as ours???


Yes it is just as bad as ours.
I have a few american friends and one of my friends got his dog because the rescue close to his home were shutting down and had over 800 dogs to get rid of. They basicly had a ....junk sale. Lined all the dogs up outside put posters up about it and gave the dogs away for a small donation (I think it was $30) or they would put them to sleep.

The situation over there is possibly worse than over here because more people are breeding over there. My other friend works for a rescue and she spends most of her day walking round the city searching drains, bins and back alleys for dumped puppies and kittens.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

So so sad that you come on here for advice as part of your research, then totally ignore what is given. 

The situation is made worse by the fact you have lost a Cav in the past due to one of their known health problems, yet are willing to risk putting your friends in the same situation.

It really does sadden me when people think a check from a vet is the same as a health test.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

So, am I understanding it correctly, that despite good advice from well-meaning members, you went ahead and allowed your dogs to mate, without the relevant health tests for the breed? 

If I've got that wrong, then I apologise.

If I've got that right, then I sincerely hope that any pups born from this mating are not affected by some of the serious issues affecting this lovely breed.

I am not one to judge others. I have to say though, in this instance, if you've bred Cavs without relevant health tests, then you have been very selfish indeed. I hope no pups/owners suffer from what you've done


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

thankyou for helping with the rescue crisis that is going on. Those of us who work in the industry really appreciate it!!!!! :O


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

A typical back yard breeder , doesnt give a damn about anything but the money


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Yes it is just as bad as ours.
> I have a few american friends and one of my friends got his dog because the rescue close to his home were shutting down and had over 800 dogs to get rid of. They basicly had a ....junk sale. Lined all the dogs up outside put posters up about it and gave the dogs away for a small donation (I think it was $30) or they would put them to sleep.
> 
> The situation over there is possibly worse than over here because more people are breeding over there. My other friend works for a rescue and she spends most of her day walking round the city searching drains, bins and back alleys for dumped puppies and kittens.


awww that is sad


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Mese said:


> A typical back yard breeder , doesnt give a damn about anything but the money


I don't think money is the motivation here (from what I understand). I think it's down to a mixture of ignorance and selfishness.

What I would like to do is convince the OP that the mismate jabs would be the best option:smile:


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

take a look at these dogs,most have come from breeders who either didn`t want them,or couldn`t sell them,alot have genetic health problems as thier breeders couldn`t be bothered to health test!!!!!!
poor dogs
i met dean the cockerpoo this weekedn(it`s me in the pic!) and the reason his breeder gave him up??he was too ugly to sell!!!!disgusting,he was covered in poo and smelt really bad.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> take a look at these dogs,most have come from breeders who either didn`t want them,or couldn`t sell them,alot have genetic health problems as thier breeders couldn`t be bothered to health test!!!!!!
> poor dogs
> i met dean the cockerpoo this weekedn(it`s me in the pic!) and the reason his breeder gave him up??he was too ugly to sell!!!!disgusting,he was covered in poo and smelt really bad.


I saw him on there and the three others as never seen cockapoos in rescue.

He is very sweet.
He will get rehomed quickly as he is beautiful and cockapoos are very rare in rescues.

How can the breeder say he is ugly 

Just had a look and he is reserved


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

If you are in the states have you thought of joining the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club, they would have loads of information for you regarding all health issues and which vets specialize in the testing for it.
Here is a link for you

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club - USA - Inc.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Well to be fair there are plenty of byb that don't do it for money. They do it for their own desires, to fulfil some sort of bizarre maternal need or just cos they fancy the experience. I'm sure the extra cash comes in handy but for many it is secondary to fulfilling their own needs.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Well to be fair there are plenty of byb that don't do it for money. They do it for their own desires, to fulfil some sort of bizarre maternal need or just cos they fancy the experience. I'm sure the extra cash comes in handy but for many it is secondary to fulfilling their own needs.


I think that is truer than most people realize Rocco.......not saying it is the case of the OP


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Well to be fair there are plenty of byb that don't do it for money. They do it for their own desires, to fulfil some sort of bizarre maternal need or just cos they fancy the experience. I'm sure the extra cash comes in handy but for many it is secondary to fulfilling their own needs.


That is true. But I think I am right in saying, that a breeder who does everything properly does not make much money when costs are taken out of testing etc.

Where as a breeder not doing things properly can end up spending much more in vet bills etc.


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

'Firsttime' Please watch this video:

YouTube - BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed - Cavaliers

Recent research shows that 50% - yes HALF of Cavaliers born to parents who have not been MRI scanned clear of syringomyelia will go to develop syringomyelia, and it is getting WORSE!! and of course there are the heart problems in the breed. Please think how you will cope when half the friends/families you sell/give your pups to come back to you heartbroken and in need of thousands of $ to diagnose and treat this horrific condition.

I would suggest you consider the mismate injection.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

What ever the reason its unacceptable to breed without making sure they are in good health. It gets me so angry.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

I think we've all made the point that the OP should not have gone ahead with this mating. Our advice obviously wasn't taken. That is the OP's choice, at the end of the day.

What I don't want to do is alienate the OP because I think she will need help if the mating progresses in the way she hopes. I get the impression that she has much to learn! So I, for one, would like to make sure that she feels able to come back to the Forum for help/guidance/advice, should she need it. All said and done, we all have the (possible) pups welfare at heart. I would hate to think that we could help with any problems/issues but the OP has fled the forum because she feels we'll say "I told you so........" and judge harshly:smile:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I think we've all made the point that the OP should not have gone ahead with this mating. Our advice obviously wasn't taken. That is the OP's choice, at the end of the day.
> 
> What I don't want to do is alienate the OP because I think she will need help if the mating progresses in the way she hopes. I get the impression that she has much to learn! So I, for one, would like to make sure that she feels able to come back to the Forum for help/guidance/advice, should she need it. All said and done, we all have the (possible) pups welfare at heart. I would hate to think that we could help with any problems/issues but the OP has fled the forum because she feels we'll say "I told you so........" and judge harshly:smile:


Really well balanced and thought out post. I think it's a great shame that the OP didn't take the advice of those members with many years' breeding experience, but wouldn't want to alienate them either. As much as I don't agree with their decision, it's the dogs that matter, and so I hope they wouldn't be put off asking for advice or help if they need it.


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Yes it is just as bad as ours.
> I have a few american friends and one of my friends got his dog because the rescue close to his home were shutting down and had over 800 dogs to get rid of. They basicly had a ....junk sale. Lined all the dogs up outside put posters up about it and gave the dogs away for a small donation (I think it was $30) or they would put them to sleep.
> 
> The situation over there is possibly worse than over here because more people are breeding over there. My other friend works for a rescue and she spends most of her day walking round the city searching drains, bins and back alleys for dumped puppies and kittens.


*pops head in nervously*

I've never posted in the dog section and rarely ever browse (I would feel a bit of a fraud trying to contribute  I love dogs so much but have never been in a position to have one myself as of yet) but just want to say that this is the first post I've read on PF that's actually caused me to shed a tear. I don't even know why as obviously you read some horrific things on here, but I find this whole thread so sad for some reason. 
I really never had any idea of the rescue situation (with both cats and dogs) until I joined this forum, after buying a kitten from a decidedly unethical woman. My personal experience of the forum is the exact reason why I don't think it should change in any way i.e. people censoring what they say so as not to scare new members off; if members hadn't been constructive (and perhaps somewhat harsh) with me upon joining I would never know what I do now. It's unfortunate that some people just won't open their ears even after being told the severity of the situation; it's very frustrating to witness educated experienced members taking the time to try and help others and essentially having it thrown back in their face.

*ducks back out of thread*

Sparkles


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Sparkles87 said:


> *pops head in nervously*
> 
> I've never posted in the dog section and rarely ever browse (I would feel a bit of a fraud trying to contribute  I love dogs so much but have never been in a position to have one myself as of yet) but just want to say that this is the first post I've read on PF that's actually caused me to shed a tear. I don't even know why as obviously you read some horrific things on here, but I find this whole thread so sad for some reason.
> I really never had any idea of the rescue situation (with both cats and dogs) until I joined this forum, after buying a kitten from a decidedly unethical woman. My personal experience of the forum is the exact reason why I don't think it should change in any way i.e. people censoring what they say so as not to scare new members off; if members hadn't been constructive (and perhaps somewhat harsh) with me upon joining I would never know what I do now. It's unfortunate that some people just won't open their ears even after being told the severity of the situation; it's very frustrating to witness educated experienced members taking the time to try and help others and essentially having it thrown back in their face.
> ...


I don't think members should tiptoe around their opinions when it involves the health and welfare of animals. I don't think anyone has pussy-footed with the OP in stating that she should not have gone ahead with the proposed mating at this time. I just don't want the OP to think she cannot come back for help in the future because I think she may very well need it and by helping her, we help the bitch/pups?, which is surely what we would all want to do, in the circumstances

Welcome to the Dog part of the Forum by the way Sparkles87


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I don't think members should tiptoe around their opinions when it involves the health and welfare of animals. I don't think anyone has pussy-footed with the OP in stating that she should not have gone ahead with the proposed mating at this time. I just don't want the OP to think she cannot come back for help in the future because I think she may very well need it and by helping her, we help the bitch/pups?, which is surely what we would all want to do, in the circumstances
> 
> Welcome to the Dog part of the Forum by the way Sparkles87


I have my fingers crossed that she doesnt take. That way it gives the OP time to consider what shes doing and possibly do it the right way.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

We all know what SHOULD be done but that doesn't mean the OP will listen to us, a lot of you have excellent experience and knowledge when it comes to dog breeding and they would be a fool not to listen but thats there choice i am afraid. 

Not a lot we can do when they don't listen, but move onto the ones that WILL listen.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> I have my fingers crossed that she doesnt take. That way it gives the OP time to consider what shes doing and possibly do it the right way.


Totally agree! Though there could be further ties now that the male has got round to the idea of what it's all about.........


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

In the event of family and friends suffering nothing will compare to the suffering of the pups should they get any of these illnesses. Poor babies, can't imagine what it's like to be so ill and not be able to tell anyone, til it's so bad that it slaps you in the face! 

Hope she doesn't take.


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I don't think members should tiptoe around their opinions when it involves the health and welfare of animals. I don't think anyone has pussy-footed with the OP in stating that she should not have gone ahead with the proposed mating at this time. I just don't want the OP to think she cannot come back for help in the future because I think she may very well need it and by helping her, we help the bitch/pups?, which is surely what we would all want to do, in the circumstances
> 
> Welcome to the Dog part of the Forum by the way Sparkles87


Oh definitely nobody pussyfooted around the OP with regards to not mating her two dogs - that isn't what I was saying at all  Sorry, I'm a bit nervous posting in here so maybe I'm not articulating (as much as you can articulate through typing) what I mean very well. 

I think it's a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Call me a cynic but after seeing how new members with questions of this ilk (obviously I'm meaning in a general sense and am mostly referring to my experiences in the cat section) often react to being told that they are wrong I'm not inclined to believe they will come back either way.

What I mean is that you, of course, have to tell them that what they are doing is unethical/incorrect but as soon as they know this is your opinion they are going to be hesitant to come back and ask for more advice relating to the situation in question; it doesn't really matter how it is put, people will hear what they want to when they feel defensive/backed into a corner/dismayed that nobody agrees with them.

As for the OP, well her belief in what is being done will only be reinforced by her dog groomer who also breeds meaning it's even less likely she will come back if anything goes wrong. It's very easy to listen to the one person who agrees with you when nobody else does, as I'm sure we all know. It's just a shame that the experience and ethics of the groomer sound questionable, either that or she is also uneducated on the matter thus meaning she is no help to OP if/when the wee ones arrive 

Thanks for the welcome Chihuahua Angels 

Sparkles


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

As the OP still hasn't stated the dogs ages, we will not find out if they are even old enough to be bred from...

I dread the thought of these pups getting ill, or having any issue early on in life, or even the mom not surviving. I know that cavs get worse as they age, but shouldn't really have health issues until they are about 7 or older...


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Sparkles87 said:


> Oh definitely nobody pussyfooted around the OP with regards to not mating her two dogs - that isn't what I was saying at all  Sorry, I'm a bit nervous posting in here so maybe I'm not articulating (as much as you can articulate through typing) what I mean very well.
> 
> I think it's a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Call me a cynic but after seeing how new members with questions of this ilk (obviously I'm meaning in a general sense and am mostly referring to my experiences in the cat section) often react to being told that they are wrong I'm not inclined to believe they will come back either way.
> 
> ...


I agree. She will likely not come back, having gone ahead and allowed the mating, despite advice.

All I meant is that some of these threads get really nasty (understandable in some ways) but I just like to "keep the door open" because if this groomer/Mentor is no help to her if things go wrong; I'd just like her to know that this Forum is here for her - for the sake of the (possible) pups

I have absolutely no knowledge of the breed (except for the health issues I've heard discussed on the tv and forums) but I expect there are many Cav owners on this Forum that could help if she needs it, should any signs of ill-health crop up (though I now understand that the health issues of this breed are more likely to crop up later on in the pups' lives).


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I think we've all made the point that the OP should not have gone ahead with this mating. Our advice obviously wasn't taken. That is the OP's choice, at the end of the day.
> 
> What I don't want to do is alienate the OP because I think she will need help if the mating progresses in the way she hopes. I get the impression that she has much to learn! So I, for one, would like to make sure that she feels able to come back to the Forum for help/guidance/advice, should she need it. All said and done, we all have the (possible) pups welfare at heart. I would hate to think that we could help with any problems/issues but the OP has fled the forum because she feels we'll say "I told you so........" and judge harshly:smile:


I agree, I dont think there is any excuse not to health test. Afterall whats a bit of time and money, compared to the fact that you are producing healthy puppies that will go on to lead long healthy lives. Also I would like to think that op will be able to come back for advice for the sake of the puppies and mummy dog. There are some fantastic, experinced breeders on here and their advice will be invaluable.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Sparkles87 said:


> Oh definitely nobody pussyfooted around the OP with regards to not mating her two dogs - that isn't what I was saying at all  Sorry, I'm a bit nervous posting in here so maybe I'm not articulating (as much as you can articulate through typing) what I mean very well.
> 
> I think it's a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Call me a cynic but after seeing how new members with questions of this ilk (obviously I'm meaning in a general sense and am mostly referring to my experiences in the cat section) often react to being told that they are wrong I'm not inclined to believe they will come back either way.
> 
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ethical breeders of CKCS have their 'breeding dogs' mri scanned not the puppies they sell....they breed for themselves to further their lines, they certainly dont cut corners by omiting breed relevant health tests and risk sick puppies being being born, and Syringomyelia is a horrendous condition any cav breeder who dosent screen their breeding dogs for this is pretty heartless imo, 

if you are going to breed and you do all the health tests available and the puppies still go on to develop a condition at least your concience would be clear and you'd know you did your best to try to produce healthy puppies, i cant understand breeders who dont want to give their puppies the best possible chance of a healthy pain free life


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> HAVE HEART AND EYE PROBLEMS AND PROFESSIONALS DO GIVE A GUARANTEE ON THEM BUT YOU CAN TEST A DOG AT AGE 2 WITH NO SIGNS OF IT . BY AGE 5, 50% HAVE SOME FORM OF HEART AND BY AGE 10 NEARLY ALL HAVE HEART PROBLEMS.
> THE OTHER IS EVERYONE IS SO QUICK TO SAY DON'T BREED WITH THE DOGS BEING OVER POPULATED , THEN WHY DO THE PROFESSIONAL GET TO BREED, AND PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THEY DO IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ANIMALS AND THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY EITHER(LOL). I SAID IN THE BEGINNING IT WAS A 1 TIME DEAL, I WAS NOT BREEDING TO MAKE MONEY, MY DOGS WERE VET CHECKED, THEY WERE GOING TO FAMILY AND FRIENDS, IF I HAD JUST 1 THAT WOULD BE IT, AND ALL I GOT WAS GRIEF OVER IT. I UNDERSTAND THAT RESCUES ARE FULL. GO ON PET FINDER .COM AND SEE HOW MANY RESCUE DOGS COST $700-$800 HERE. THESE ARE PRIVATE PEOPLE DOING IT FOR A $ WHICH I RESENT. I AM NOT TRYING TO COMPETE AGAINST ANY ONE, LIKE I SAID, IT WAS GOING TO BE JUST 1 TIME. I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THE RESPONSES AND SIDE STEPPING THE QUESTIONS EITHER. GO FOR IT!!!!!


Well, 'Professional Breeders' as you put it are usually puppy farms - so there is no support for them from here or commercial breeders, some of whom test, some don't.

It makes no difference to me whether you are breeding to make money or for your own personal experience - if you aren't doing it properly then you shouldn't be doing it.

VET CHECKS ARE NOT THE SAME AS HEALTH TESTS. Health tests are breed specific and usually have to be carried out by vet specialists.

And there are several cav breeders on this forum who DO MRI scan their bitches before breeding (as well as the other health tests required.

Your determination to argue against health testing says it all to me  It doesn't matter how much you say you love your dogs - you clearly love yourself more and are determined to put your own desires before the care of your dogs and the futures of the puppies future puppies.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Nobody is being abusive to you 

The breeders on here are trying to inform you of the risks involve and they and others are trying to inform you of the health problems Cavaliers have.

I know you are not doing it for money but to breed to give puppies to family and friends.

But as I have said before is it worth putting your dog at risk to supply puppies to people who may at the end of the day decide not to have them?

If you are going ahead ( which looks likely as they have tied) would you now consider doing the health tests on your adults that people have recommended to you?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

firsttime said:


> I did come back to take more abuse. If I buy a puppy from You Professional Breeders are you going to give my dog an mri? Also this needs to go to most everyone telling me how bad a person I am for trying to breed my dogs. DO SOME RESEARCH ON THIS BREED!!!! THEY DO HAVE HEART AND EYE PROBLEMS AND PROFESSIONALS DO GIVE A GUARANTEE ON THEM BUT YOU CAN TEST A DOG AT AGE 2 WITH NO SIGNS OF IT . BY AGE 5, 50% HAVE SOME FORM OF HEART AND BY AGE 10 NEARLY ALL HAVE HEART PROBLEMS.
> THE OTHER IS EVERYONE IS SO QUICK TO SAY DON'T BREED WITH THE DOGS BEING OVER POPULATED , THEN WHY DO THE PROFESSIONAL GET TO BREED, AND PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THEY DO IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ANIMALS AND THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY EITHER(LOL). I SAID IN THE BEGINNING IT WAS A 1 TIME DEAL, I WAS NOT BREEDING TO MAKE MONEY, MY DOGS WERE VET CHECKED, THEY WERE GOING TO FAMILY AND FRIENDS, IF I HAD JUST 1 THAT WOULD BE IT, AND ALL I GOT WAS GRIEF OVER IT. I UNDERSTAND THAT RESCUES ARE FULL. GO ON PET FINDER .COM AND SEE HOW MANY RESCUE DOGS COST $700-$800 HERE. THESE ARE PRIVATE PEOPLE DOING IT FOR A $ WHICH I RESENT. I AM NOT TRYING TO COMPETE AGAINST ANY ONE, LIKE I SAID, IT WAS GOING TO BE JUST 1 TIME. I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THE RESPONSES AND SIDE STEPPING THE QUESTIONS EITHER. GO FOR IT!!!!!


I'm not sure what you mean by a professional breeder, but the only reason a responsible breeder breeds is because their dogs are proven, either in the show ring, working or competing in some way, they don't just churn out litters for sale. They usually keep a pup or two back, to further their lines, sometimes not, but then they can also use those dogs possibly in the future that will compliment their breeding plans.

Vet checking isn't good enough I'm afraid, not for a breed that suffers such awful conditions, I don't want to 'shout' at you but you NEED to do the health tests recommended for the breed, and that information is readily available on breed club websites as well as the KC and AKC websites. There is no excuse to breed without doing these health tests, I've spent nearly £1,000 health testing my two bitches, one I had spayed, and I may well never produce a single pup from the other, do I regret it? No, because I'd rather lose money but go about breeding with the right intentions, than cut any corners.

What people cannot accept is that you are willing to risk the life of your bitch for no good reason, supplying puppies to family and friends is not a good reason to breed.

I tell you what, if you think the replies on this thread were abusive, you need to go on a few different forums, this is a very tame forum compared to others, so please, just take a step back and re-read what's been posted; don't take it personally but take it as advice from people who care about dogs passionately, and are trying to get across the message that what you're doing isn't right, you need to put your dogs first.

How would you feel if your family and friends end up with pups that develop genetic conditions that you could have tested for? How would you feel if you lost your bitch, it happens more regularly than you'd like to think? Are you prepared to lose not just your bitch, but any pups? I hope you've asked yourself these questions, this is the reality of dog breeding, it's not all pretty puppies and happy mum. You may not realise it, but just because people don't agree with you and tell you what you want to hear, doesn't mean they're not trying to help you.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

I have scheduled another appointment with the vet to have the dogs heart and eye certified. I would hope after this, I would not be told not to breed. Before any thing else is said, my vet was while in school in Canada, had ever Thursday, Cavalier day and thats what she did her research on. This is who I trust with my dogs lives, not any one else. Fair enough? If found out they check out healthy, to be honest with you, at that point I would then in turn sell them instead of giving to my family and friends. I would have to recoupe my money some how. This would probably be wrong too with most of you. So what everyone is saying, is that they should be tested and then its ok to breed? I really am tired of defending my position on this. I STILL WANT THIS ANSWERED: AT AGE 2 THERE CHECKED WHICH SHOWS NO SIGNS, BUT THE FACTS ARE 50% BY AGE 5 AND NEARLY 100% BY AGE 10. THEIR GUARANTEE DOES NOT REALLY MEAN ANY THING. THESE ARE FACTS NOT SOME THING MADE UP. SO PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION. IF YOU TALK TO A VET , EVERY DOG HAS SOME PROBLEM WITH THEIR BREED. IF BREEDERS ARE IN IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE DOG THEN WHY RAPE ME FOR $1500 TO $2000 FOR A PUPPY THAT CAN BE CHECKED BY A VET AND TESTED ONLY TO POSSIBLY GET MVD PROBLEMS BY AGE 5 AND PRETTY MUCH GUARANTEE BY AGE 10 TO HAVE IT.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

firsttime said:


> I have had King Charles Cavaliers for about 6 years. I lost 1 with heart problems, I have 1 that is akc but spaded just like the first one, and now have these 2. *The only reason I have decided to breed is for family and friends. Its not for profit.* All the future puppies would go to people I trust, not just anyone. I have a question if anyone can answer, not to start anything but I always read"leave it to the professionals" but didn't they start off and have a first time at breeding before they became the professional?


So you are now saying you will not give away but charge!!!

So it's not your only reason to breed then is it?

Why bother to recoup your costs- save money and not breed your pets at all.

I just think you have not thought all this out properly with regards to the risks and where your puppies will go.

Your dogs were initially bought as pets not breeding stock.

So have you decided to go ahead and get them heath tested now?


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

It was said that I hear and read what I want, ok, so answer the question instead of taking 1 part and focusing on that. People are questioning my groomer/ breeder who has been breeding for 40 years and showing dogs, whats next, my vet!! Every time I write some thing the Bob Barkers of the world attack. *Just interested how many of you are breeders that have been ripping me apart and how many breed Cavaliers? If you can't BE HONEST THEN DON'T RESPOND. I HAVE SAID EVERYTHING IN GOOD FAITH SO NOW ITS YOUR TURN.*


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

I apologise if I have misunderstood this but please correct me if I am wrong.

So your first plan was to give them to family and friends for free. But if you do carry out the suggested health tests then you will charge your family and friends for the puppies? Can see why you may do that, to cover your costs etc. But how will those family/friends feel when at present they think they are getting a free puppy, only to find out you now want money? Have you pre warned them you may want money? Otherwise they will soon back out if they are unaware, and you or a rescue will soon have a couple of unwanted puppies.

As I said earlier responsible breeders are not in it for the money, they spend more than the cost of a puppy usually. Any breeder in it for the money is usually a puppy farmer or back yard breeder. 

And regarding your question about problems may develop in later life. If I had one of your puppies and 7 years later it developed a heart problem, I would track you down and ask "Did you do the tests etc?" If you replied "Yes and they were clear", then I would know you did your best etc. But if I found out you did not do the tests then I would be extremely unhappy which could lead on to actions being taken.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

firsttime said:


> I have scheduled another appointment with the vet to have the dogs heart and eye certified. I would hope after this, I would not be told not to breed. Before any thing else is said, my vet was while in school in Canada, had ever Thursday, Cavalier day and thats what she did her research on. This is who I trust with my dogs lives, not any one else. Fair enough? If found out they check out healthy, to be honest with you, at that point I would then in turn sell them instead of giving to my family and friends. I would have to recoupe my money some how. This would probably be wrong too with most of you. So what everyone is saying, is that they should be tested and then its ok to breed? I really am tired of defending my position on this. I STILL WANT THIS ANSWERED: AT AGE 2 THERE CHECKED WHICH SHOWS NO SIGNS, BUT THE FACTS ARE 50% BY AGE 5 AND NEARLY 100% BY AGE 10. THEIR GUARANTEE DOES NOT REALLY MEAN ANY THING. THESE ARE FACTS NOT SOME THING MADE UP. SO PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION. IF YOU TALK TO A VET , EVERY DOG HAS SOME PROBLEM WITH THEIR BREED. IF BREEDERS ARE IN IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE DOG THEN WHY RAPE ME FOR $1500 TO $2000 FOR A PUPPY THAT CAN BE CHECKED BY A VET AND TESTED ONLY TO POSSIBLY GET MVD PROBLEMS BY AGE 5 AND PRETTY MUCH GUARANTEE BY AGE 10 TO HAVE IT.


Hun, you're missing the point, responsible breeding isn't about recouping costs of health testing, people who are responsible and ethical breeders of anything, do it because they love that particular breed of animal. And as such, they wouldn't want to do anything that would 'harm' the breed, by producing poor quality or unhealthy examples, does that make sense?

Vets are not specialists in breeding knowledge, breeders are, and you would get much better advice from a good breeder of Cavs than you will ever get from a vet, unless they happen to breed Cavs. They have a much more general and wide knowledge, which they need for the treatment of numerous types of animals, you can't expect them to all specialise in reproduction, but please don't treat their advice as the best, it won't be, I can guarantee it.

If you ask on here, you will find any number of members where vets have given poor advice about breeding. I know the advice of one vet I used to be registered with was really very poor, and the first person I ask is a breed specialist when it comes to my dogs, not the vet.

I can't answer your question about heart issues and Cavs because they're not my breed, but it would help if you gave a link to where that information is from, and hopefully someone who has more knowledge of Cavs and their breeding etc, will be able to tell you more about it.


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## mrswoodwoose (Jan 23, 2011)

OP, no-one has been abusing you or ripping you apart - we have questioned your determination to breed from these 2 dogs and given our reasons why we believe it's not a good idea. Evidence has been supplied to back up our comments.

I'm sorry you feel this way - I was given a lot of grief over my 1st post in the cat section with some very sarky comments by one person, but I know that the written word can't convey body language and emotion, so I chose to ignore it. 

That said, I still feel there are far to many dogs in this world and we should be taking better care of those living and not breeding more - after all, in many cases it has been professional breeders, breed standards, kennel clubs, dogs shows etc that have allowed dogs to be bred with traits that are not in the interest of the animal. (Ok so that opens me up to a lot of flack - well what I mean is problems with breathing due to short snouts etc. - someone bred this trait into the breed)


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

There is no need to shout.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

This thread and the many posts on it must surely be a wonderful reminder why it is so important to only buy from experienced breeders who know what they are doing and who carry out all relevant health checks for their breed 

And why to avoid backyard breeders :thumbsup:


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

the OP says she will test her dogs now (but sell the pups instead of giving them away so she can recoup her money ) but what if the results come back as bad and the bitch is already pregnant 

what happens then ?

How long does it take for the test results to come back ?
should the bitch have the mis-mate jab just incase ?

I have zero clue about breeding so forgive any stupid questions , lol


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

I am really sad that this thread has gone this way, though I kind of guessed it would.

I think that most members have given good advice to the OP but I think that the frustration is beginning to show in some members' posts.

I honestly dont think there is much more to be said. It looks like the OP IS going to do some health tests, which can only be a good thing.

To the OP, I honestly think you are digging yourself into a bigger hole with some of the posts. I dont think you are going to justify your reasons so maybe just ask questions and help yourself to be prepared for whelping, etc., if the mating has been "successful"

Best wishes x


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

firsttime said:


> It was said that I hear and read what I want, ok, so answer the question instead of taking 1 part and focusing on that. People are questioning my groomer/ breeder who has been breeding for 40 years and showing dogs, whats next, my vet!! Every time I write some thing the Bob Barkers of the world attack. *Just interested how many of you are breeders that have been ripping me apart and how many breed Cavaliers? If you can't BE HONEST THEN DON'T RESPOND. I HAVE SAID EVERYTHING IN GOOD FAITH SO NOW ITS YOUR TURN.*


Nobody is ripping you apart just being honest with you and trying to advise you that not only is breeding not as easy as a novice thinks it is but Cavaliers themselves are a breed in particular that suffer with their health.

Just wanting you to realise the risks and either reconsider your motives for breeding or ensure that you do everything you can to ensure the pups have the best start.

Believe me as an owner of two poodle crosses that I bought and not rescued I have had my fair share of comments on here too :lol::lol:


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

> I did come back to take more abuse. If I buy a puppy from You Professional Breeders are you going to give my dog an mri? Also this needs to go to most everyone telling me how bad a person I am for trying to breed my dogs. DO SOME RESEARCH ON THIS BREED!!!! THEY DO HAVE HEART AND EYE PROBLEMS AND PROFESSIONALS DO GIVE A GUARANTEE ON THEM BUT YOU CAN TEST A DOG AT AGE 2 WITH NO SIGNS OF IT . BY AGE 5, 50% HAVE SOME FORM OF HEART AND BY AGE 10 NEARLY ALL HAVE HEART PROBLEMS.
> THE OTHER IS EVERYONE IS SO QUICK TO SAY DON'T BREED WITH THE DOGS BEING OVER POPULATED , THEN WHY DO THE PROFESSIONAL GET TO BREED, AND PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THEY DO IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ANIMALS AND THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY EITHER(LOL). I SAID IN THE BEGINNING IT WAS A 1 TIME DEAL, I WAS NOT BREEDING TO MAKE MONEY, MY DOGS WERE VET CHECKED, THEY WERE GOING TO FAMILY AND FRIENDS, IF I HAD JUST 1 THAT WOULD BE IT, AND ALL I GOT WAS GRIEF OVER IT. I UNDERSTAND THAT RESCUES ARE FULL. GO ON PET FINDER .COM AND SEE HOW MANY RESCUE DOGS COST $700-$800 HERE. THESE ARE PRIVATE PEOPLE DOING IT FOR A $ WHICH I RESENT. I AM NOT TRYING TO COMPETE AGAINST ANY ONE, LIKE I SAID, IT WAS GOING TO BE JUST 1 TIME. I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THE RESPONSES AND SIDE STEPPING THE QUESTIONS EITHER. GO FOR IT!!!!!





> It was said that I hear and read what I want, ok, so answer the question instead of taking 1 part and focusing on that. People are questioning my groomer/ breeder who has been breeding for 40 years and showing dogs, whats next, my vet!! Every time I write some thing the Bob Barkers of the world attack. Just interested how many of you are breeders that have been ripping me apart and how many breed Cavaliers? If you can't BE HONEST THEN DON'T RESPOND. I HAVE SAID EVERYTHING IN GOOD FAITH SO NOW ITS YOUR TURN.


Please do not shout at me. It's both rude and entirely unnecessary. My post was not insulting towards you and for the most part I was talking in a general sense about the forum as a whole, which I stated.

I'm not going to argue with you. To answer your question, no I do not breed cavaliers, nor any other breed of dog/type of animal. In fact I do not even have a dog so in fairness you probably know a lot more than me on this particular matter. However, it appears that you won't put what you know to good use and are simply refusing to open your mind to what experienced members are saying. As for the profit, well all I can say is that their is a very well-respected breeder in the cat section who has been making losses on her litters. She sells the litters at full price for pedigrees but because of the level of care she puts into it this does not even cover her costs.

If your dog is pregnant then I wish you the best of luck and hope the pups grow up to be healthy and happy.

Sparkles


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

I breed Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. 

I really try to breed away from the awful conditions these amazing little dogs suffer from. I recently bred a litter:

My bitch was 3 years and 6 month old when she was bred for the first time and is heart, eye and MRI scanned (all clear). Her parents are heart and eye tested clear (all clear). IMPORTANTLY I can identify many Cavaliers in her pedigree as living long healthy lives, with very late onset heart problems and yes I mean going back 5 generations!!!! Same applies to stud dog chosen, his Mum was heart clear at 8 and a half and many, many of his relatives have clear MRI results. It's all about trying to reduce risk.

In summary - It's NOT just about the heart status of the parents, it's about the heart status of their parents, their siblings, their grandparents, their great grandparents etc etc (Cavalier Club Over 5's heart Clear list has been very helpful).

You cannot aim to breed Cavaliers with a good chance of health if you are not even sure the genes are their in the first place to pass on this health!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sophiekins said:


> I breed Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.
> 
> I really try to breed away from the awful conditions these amazing little dogs suffer from. I recently bred a litter:
> 
> ...


Sophiekins, I'm just about to head out to take my dogs for a walk, but are you able to answer the OP's question about heart conditions deteriorating, and what appear to be young dogs without any problems, deteriorating as they get older?? I think your point about knowing heritage and that dogs within a pedigree have lived long healthy lines is probably quite appropriate and related to this in a way.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I am sorry to hear about your previous cavalier. Heart Mitral valve disease is found in half of all cavaliers by age 5 and nearly all by age 10. Syringomyelia is also widespread and can cause pain and possible paralysis. Hip Dysplasia can effect about 1 out of 3, Bracycephalic airway obstruction. is also common.
> Eye problems are also common. Most of the hereditary disease you can have tests and screening for. If you have not had the health tests and screening done, it may be an idea to have them carried out before breeding. I know that you said you are breeding for family and friends, but health testing and screening prior to mating (if you havent already) May save your friends and family the heatbreak that you had with your own cavalier, and may put your mind at rest that you have given your pups the healthiest start possible.
> 
> Cavalier health organisation, has a very good website on cavalier health, that may help you. I have enclosed the link.
> ...


I am sorry that you feel that, you are being got at, Just for the record I have never bred, never intentended to, never wanted too, in fact 5 of the 6 dogs I have owned have been rescued. I do have however, an interest in the health and wellbeing of all dogs. The post I did was purely to notify you of all the facts relating to the health problems and hereditary diseases in the cavalier. The link I gave, would give you all the details of the problems, and health screening and diagnostic tests in detail. Purely for your information. I have problems in my breeds, every breed has problems. My dogs are purely pets, but personally I have made sure that I am aware of what the problems are and what I need to do to keep them healthy and with me for as long as possible. My post was purely to help you, should you want to breed, that you have given your dogs and pups, the best chance of health and a long a life as is possible. The details on the link, are not hearsay, they are scientific fact and were meant to help you.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

firsttime said:


> It was said that I hear and read what I want, ok, so answer the question instead of taking 1 part and focusing on that. People are questioning my groomer/ breeder who has been breeding for 40 years and showing dogs, whats next, my vet!! Every time I write some thing the Bob Barkers of the world attack. *Just interested how many of you are breeders that have been ripping me apart and how many breed Cavaliers? If you can't BE HONEST THEN DON'T RESPOND. I HAVE SAID EVERYTHING IN GOOD FAITH SO NOW ITS YOUR TURN.*


I have just spent a year health testing my bitch and we go to stud in a few months. Health tests alone have cost me £500 that's before whelping supplies and stud dog fee's. My breed average litter size is 4, I plan on keeping 1 or 2 back and 1 is going to another friend of mine who is a breeder and IF there is one left it will go to the person on the top of my waiting list.

3 members of my family want a pup from us, I am not even thinking about it. Because as soon as the time comes to have the dog and its missing its litter mates, crying all night, pooping on the carpets and they need to pay the money for it they will soon vanish.

I used to work at a vets and we routinely saw sick dogs come in with genetic problems. Why do you think cavaliers got to the state they are in? Do you really want to be one of those reasons?

I also have a cavalier king charles who at 4 years old has a heart murmur.


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

NO responsible breeder will guarantee that a puppy you buy from him/her will NOT develop MVD eventually. Most Cavaliers will. The aim of responsible breeders is to breed puppies that will develop MVD so late in life that the pup will never experience problems due to its heart and will instead die of something unrelated, preferably late in life. Of course this is much preferred to breeding Cavaliers of unknown ancestry who may well develop MVD early, suffering and dying young.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sophiekins said:


> NO responsible breeder will guarantee that a puppy you buy from him/her will NOT develop MVD eventually. Most Cavaliers will.


That is a very chilling thought *shudders* and very sad


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Can I just add that all you have to do is go on pets4homes and put in cavalier and pages up on pages of puppies and older dogs pop up. Surely family/friends would rather home one thats already here than risk your bitch's life?
> 
> Cute only lasts for about 2 days until you are up all night watching them to make sure they dont die then after weeks of no sleep they are chewing at your walls and carpet and pee'ing everywhere.


Oh i remember the sleepless nights, i even have photos pf the "puppy damage" and the bills that with with it. the mopping every hour, the chaning off all the whleping box bedding, the washing machine on all the time and i will say now i take back my posts from before. It does look like this one doesn't seem to care.

I stand humbly corrected.

I do try and give some people the benefit of the doubt maybe my issue here!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

candysmum said:


> Oh i remember the sleepless nights, i even have photos pf the "puppy damage" and the bills that with with it. the mopping every hour, the chaning off all the whleping box bedding, the washing machine on all the time and i will say now i take back my posts from before. It does look like this one doesn't seem to care.
> 
> I stand humbly corrected.


Exactly. 
Its only once the "cute puppies" arrive the reality sets in. The cost of whelping supplies is enough to make most people cry but when they start chewing walls, carpets, curtains and start crying all night they are not so cute.

Many people ignore that and think they are different but in reality many people, even the most experianced breeders dread the sleepless nights and the ££££ worth of damage.

Thats if the whelp is simple however mum or pups can suffer during whelping and many litters do have 1 pup that dies at some point and thats the worst bit.

We once had a call during the day (while I worked in a vets) from a woman distraught and not sure what to do. She only lived a few streets away, she arrived at the door with 2 dead puppies in her arms with tears down her face. She was shaking and upset and genuinely thought she could revive them even though they were dead and had been for a while. (She had only nipped shopping). It made me cry that day, so god knows how she felt.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly.
> Its only once the "cute puppies" arrive the reality sets in. The cost of whelping supplies is enough to make most people cry but when they start chewing walls, carpets, curtains and start crying all night they are not so cute.
> 
> Many people ignore that and think they are different but in reality many people, even the most experianced breeders dread the sleepless nights and the ££££ worth of damage.
> ...


Oh yeah the risks are there, We nearly lost one pup at birth but i had my supplies and had what i needed and she surived but saying that even though inknew what to do i was still here checking with the forum members on what had to be done and to the credit of the people that sat up with me all night on their pcs This forum was amazing and is in many many ways.

A few times i moved candy off one of the pups becasue she'd accidently sat/laid on one. I know how lucky we were that all 9 made it to loving homes in the end.

Hope with all my heart these ones make it through I dont know the cav breed but from reading the whole thread i wont hold my breath on their health  so so sad.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

firsttime said:


> It was said that I hear and read what I want, ok, so answer the question instead of taking 1 part and focusing on that. People are questioning my groomer/ breeder who has been breeding for 40 years and showing dogs, whats next, my vet!! Every time I write some thing the Bob Barkers of the world attack. *Just interested how many of you are breeders that have been ripping me apart and how many breed Cavaliers? If you can't BE HONEST THEN DON'T RESPOND. I HAVE SAID EVERYTHING IN GOOD FAITH SO NOW ITS YOUR TURN.*


I breed Dalmatians, I have had one litter. Mum had her health test and she was cleared. she had 9 puppies i had them hearing tested as dalmatians having a hearing issue. i had 1 totally deaf puppy and 2 with one deaf ear. one puppy had enthopia (sp) and then another contracted enthopia at around 12 months.

in total i spend way over £2000 for all tests food and operations. Mum was spayed because she can't better her breed only damage it. I sold pups and i was left with nothing no money was left. then i had to pay out the electric bill for heating and all the washing i had to do and repait the damage the puppies did.

i think you;ll find i lost £2000 if not more.

If you health test your cavs and they PASS all your breeds tests then yes Breed IF you feel its right. IF your dogs fail then abort the pregnance if it happens.


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## jimporter (Feb 14, 2011)

Speaking, from a mans perspective, everything else being said I just feel sorry for the dog who has got his leg over once and will now have his dangly bits cut off. Know how annoyed I would have been if this had been done to me.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Mese said:


> the OP says she will test her dogs now (but sell the pups instead of giving them away so she can recoup her money ) but what if the results come back as bad and the bitch is already pregnant
> 
> what happens then ?
> 
> ...


If said test prove bad for either, I would pay for it to be terminated. I am sorry to all that feel I am going about it the wrong way. Since they tied the one time I just want everyone to know that I have kept them separated so they won't have a second chance. That being said I just could not understand why anyone would say there are too many dogs for me to breed but at the same time it would be ok for the experienced breeder to add more dogs into the world. It seems I am up against 2 groups, people that talk about over population and people that talk about experience and breeding to help the breed. I have talked to the people that wanted them in the beginning and they would pay the cost for the testing which would be divided by # of puppies. I don't know what more I can say or do at this point. Just one question, if I can trace back 5 generations that show no problems would that have solved the issue in the beginning? Have a nice day.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

firsttime said:


> If said test prove bad for either, I would pay for it to be terminated. I am sorry to all that feel I am going about it the wrong way. Since they tied the one time I just want everyone to know that I have kept them separated so they won't have a second chance. That being said I just could not understand why anyone would say there are too many dogs for me to breed but at the same time it would be ok for the experienced breeder to add more dogs into the world. It seems I am up against 2 groups, people that talk about over population and people that talk about experience and breeding to help the breed. I have talked to the people that wanted them in the beginning and they would pay the cost for the testing which would be divided by # of puppies. I don't know what more I can say or do at this point. Just one question, if I can trace back 5 generations that show no problems would that have solved the issue in the beginning? Have a nice day.


tracing back helps you determing weather to breed or not along with the required health checks to inssue you 2 dogs are clear. Had you done these to start with then yes there wont not have been an issue on the forum.

Your not up against 2 groups so to speak, if you are going to better your breed etc then thats a good thing we need to breed out health issues which is why everyone has stressed the importance of health testing the parents. No not everything can be 100% but trying to lessen all risks is all we can do as breeders.

The group about overpopulation is stating if yours pups came into the world unhealthy then it would add to the Bad side of the breed and they would end up in shelters etc if all health tests are clear etc then the liklihood is they will never see a shelter.

I'm glad you stayed around, and we will help you through it all. the forum all care passionatly about animals and sometimes we all get a bit in your face with our passion.

How old are your two dogs?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

firsttime said:


> If said test prove bad for either, I would pay for it to be terminated. I am sorry to all that feel I am going about it the wrong way. Since they tied the one time I just want everyone to know that I have kept them separated so they won't have a second chance. That being said I just could not understand why anyone would say there are too many dogs for me to breed but at the same time it would be ok for the experienced breeder to add more dogs into the world. It seems I am up against 2 groups, people that talk about over population and people that talk about experience and breeding to help the breed. I have talked to the people that wanted them in the beginning and they would pay the cost for the testing which would be divided by # of puppies. I don't know what more I can say or do at this point. Just one question, if I can trace back 5 generations that show no problems would that have solved the issue in the beginning? Have a nice day.


You're not against anyone, it's just that people here care passionately about dogs, and about the breeding of dogs, that may have come across in the posts. I am really glad you're stuck around to learn more from the good breeders on here, so many don't, and it's an uphill battle against bad breeders who try to pull the wool over peoples' eyes. People may not agree with what you've done in allowing your dogs to mate and possibly produce pups, but that doesn't mean we hate you or your dogs, or that we don't want everything to work out right, we just want what's best for the dogs 



candysmum said:


> tracing back helps you determing weather to breed or not along with the required health checks to inssue you 2 dogs are clear. Had you done these to start with then yes there wont not have been an issue on the forum.
> 
> Your not up against 2 groups so to speak, if you are going to better your breed etc then thats a good thing we need to breed out health issues which is why everyone has stressed the importance of health testing the parents. No not everything can be 100% but trying to lessen all risks is all we can do as breeders.
> 
> ...


Great post, really sums it up well!


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

candysmum said:


> tracing back helps you determing weather to breed or not along with the required health checks to inssue you 2 dogs are clear. Had you done these to start with then yes there wont not have been an issue on the forum.
> 
> Your not up against 2 groups so to speak, if you are going to better your breed etc then thats a good thing we need to breed out health issues which is why everyone has stressed the importance of health testing the parents. No not everything can be 100% but trying to lessen all risks is all we can do as breeders.
> 
> ...


This does sum it up a lot... However I have asked the OP twice now about the ages of the two dogs, and have yet to have a reply about that.

I have seen cavaliers in a lot of states, and while on work experience with a vets I was there when they PTS one with severe SM, and it was horrid  We aren't sure whether to breed from ours at the moment, but if she isn't spayed in June (which I hope to be honest), she will be heart and eye tested, and MRI'd in October, when she turns 2.


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

kaisa624 said:


> This does sum it up a lot... However I have asked the OP twice now about the ages of the two dogs, and have yet to have a reply about that.
> 
> I have seen cavaliers in a lot of states, and while on work experience with a vets I was there when they PTS one with severe SM, and it was horrid  We aren't sure whether to breed from ours at the moment, but if she isn't spayed in June (which I hope to be honest), she will be heart and eye tested, and MRI'd in October, when she turns 2.


Breeding guidelines recommend no Cavalier should be bred until at least 2 1/2.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

First of all I will be up front and say I am not a breeder, nor am I particularly experienced with Cavs. But I am a dog lover and puppy buyer, so my concerns are still valid I believe when it comes to animal welfare, ethical breeding, and producing sound pups.

I'm a bit confused about your views on this:



> AND PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THEY DO IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ANIMALS AND THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY EITHER(LOL).





> If found out they check out healthy, to be honest with you, at that point I would then in turn sell them instead of giving to my family and friends. I would have to recoupe my money some how.


Here's the thing - ethical breeds, who care about their own dogs, the pups they produce, will spend whatever is necessary to help ensure they produce only the best pups possible. They may still give away some pups, or keep them, and thus make no money. And many good breeders make a loss rather than a profit. Why? Because they pay for a great quality bitch from exceptional lines, then for the most suitable, compatible stud, then for all the appropriate health tests, vet checks, equipment, etc.

Of course, health tests are no guarnatee - I don;t believe anyone has said they are. Certainly some tests in some breeds are a certainty (ie dogs can DNA test "clear" of certain disorders) but I do not know about Cav tests specifically. But it shouldn't just be about guarantees - but about reducing risk.

I think Sophiekins explained it best. Breeding from two un-tested dogs is a total hit and miss affair and is totally irresponsible as there is such a high chance of producing unhealthy pups. Breeding from two tested dogs is certainly better, as it reduces the risk, although as said already - no guarantees. But ethical breeders go further than this. By looking not only at the parents, but at the grandparents, siblings, and other relatives you can get a much more accurate idea of the health of your dogs lines. The more tested dogs in your dogs lines, the lower the risk.

I do not understand how you can justify not health testing before breeding, simply because many cavs show no signs by a certain age. In my opinion, the very fact that so many many cavs are sick by the age of 5, with almost all by age 10, is THE reason to health test ALL of them before breeding! What if your dogs do come back with dodgy health at a much younger age (eg 2 years)? You would be effectively damaging the breed, rather than improving it or maintaining the status quo!

There is no way on this earth the health of the breed (or any breed) is going to improve is breeders simply don't bother to health test.



> It seems I am up against 2 groups, people that talk about over population and people that talk about experience and breeding to help the breed.


I don't believe this is the case - I certainly fall into both categories for a start!

I look at it this way...

There are thousands of dogs looking for homes - and being abandoned, stuck in shelters, and killed as a result. Overpopulation.

There are also thousands of dogs suffering as a result of poor breeding, including health and temperament problems. Dogs going blind, being crippled, being in excruciating pain, etc.

My belief is simple - if we were to only breed from dogs of proven (so far as is possible) sound health and temperament then we would effectifvely kill two birds with one stone. Fewer dogs being produced thus reducing the overpopulation crisis, and fewer dogs suffering as a result of poor breeding.



> Just one question, if I can trace back 5 generations that show no problems would that have solved the issue in the beginning?


To a certain extent I think it would. You posted your original question and people came back asking you about your dogs... had you at that point said that both of your dogs were fully health tested, of a suitable age, good examples of the breed, and indeed that you have good health records (inc good test results) going back 5 geerations - then people may well have been applauding you.

I for one am certainly not "against" dog breeding. But with so many dogs suffering from hereditary disorders, and so many tests and things (eg checks on older relatives) available, breeding un-tested dogs is simply inexcusable.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Nevermind already been said


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

kaisa624 said:


> This does sum it up a lot... However I have asked the OP twice now about the ages of the two dogs, and have yet to have a reply about that.
> 
> I have seen cavaliers in a lot of states, and while on work experience with a vets I was there when they PTS one with severe SM, and it was horrid  We aren't sure whether to breed from ours at the moment, but if she isn't spayed in June (which I hope to be honest), she will be heart and eye tested, and MRI'd in October, when she turns 2.


I am sorry, they are almost 3 years old, ( had a lot of comments to read and just overlooked it), The female is a healthy 25 pounds and the male is 17 pounds. The only reason I did not test before was due to the when I spoke to the vet, they said they were healthy. I thought if they checked them and felt if needed they would have told me.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

firsttime said:


> I am sorry, they are almost 3 years old, ( had a lot of comments to read and just overlooked it), The female is a healthy 25 pounds and the male is 17 pounds. The only reason I did not test before was due to the when I spoke to the vet, they said they were healthy. I thought if they checked them and felt if needed they would have told me.


unfortunatly most vets know nothing about breed specific tests, just because the dogs appear healthy your vet cant know if they are carrying an inheritable condition unless theyre tested for it....Why not do the right thing and take your little dog for the mismate jab?


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

firsttime said:


> I am sorry, they are almost 3 years old, ( had a lot of comments to read and just overlooked it), The female is a healthy 25 pounds and the male is 17 pounds. The only reason I did not test before was due to the when I spoke to the vet, they said they were healthy. I thought if they checked them and felt if needed they would have told me.


Its a common mistake of most newbies to think that a vet check is the same as a health check.

one of our members has put up a thread that explains there is a difference. in the dog breeding section.

Hats off to you for sticking around, it takes a lot to after all thats been on this thread.

Get both Dogs tested ASAP and get hold of all the history you can, in the next week if things dont look good Take Your girl to the vets for mismate jab if its all looking Good then if you feel you wish to carry on then do so.

You need to find out what tests it is you need for your breed and find a Speicalist Vet to do them. I had to travel 40 minutes drive for our nearest specialist that was lucky others have to go further!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Another hats off for sticking around to learn more from the experienced members. As has been suggested, you need to get the tests done asap, if the results are poor you have to seriously consider the mismate jab, it would be wrong to bring pups into the world from parents that could pass on genetic conditions, and it would be wrong to put your girl through the whelping, which takes a toll on bitches. If the results are good, and you feel you would like to continue, you still need to research the dogs behind your dogs, parents, grandparents etc, to try and find out if they lived reasonably long and healthy lines, that will give you more of an idea of whether there are any problems associated with some of the dogs in their pedigrees. I would strongly recommend you contact a breed club in the US to talk to someone with specific experience for the breed, they will be able to help you much more with knowledge about your dogs' ancestors, and with the whelping and puppy rearing should you decide to go ahead.

I hope you are starting to realise just how little help vets really are when it comes to reproduction. Please don't take their advice as being comprehensive, they know very little in comparison to experienced breeders.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

firsttime said:


> I am sorry, they are almost 3 years old, ( had a lot of comments to read and just overlooked it), The female is a healthy 25 pounds and the male is 17 pounds. The only reason I did not test before was due to the when I spoke to the vet, they said they were healthy. I thought if they checked them and felt if needed they would have told me.


Hi Firsttime

Just wanted to say that I am SOOOO PLEASED that you have come back to the forum! I wasn't sure you would but good on you!

I hope everything goes well and that tests show that there are no worries breeding your dogs:001_smile:


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

The problem is, I'm not sure it is safe to MRI scan a bitch that could be in whelp! I think MRI's in the states cost about $2000 per dog.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Sophiekins said:


> *The problem is, I'm not sure it is safe to MRI scan a bitch that could be in whelp!* I think MRI's in the states cost about $2000 per dog.


That's a point actually. The MRI would have to be carried out very quickly too, as the OP (I believe) said that she would abort if the tests proved there were problems.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

firsttime said:


> I am sorry, they are almost 3 years old, ( had a lot of comments to read and just overlooked it), The female is a healthy 25 pounds and the male is 17 pounds. The only reason I did not test before was due to the when I spoke to the vet, they said they were healthy. I thought if they checked them and felt if needed they would have told me.


Were these weights before the female was suspected pregnant?

25lbs is over 11kg... breed standard is between 5.4kg and 8.2kg (12-18lbs). 25 is a lot more than that obviously. The male is fine weigh wise... Just curious. My 18 month old bitch is 7kg (15lbs) and she has filled out now, and has maintained this weight since she was 12 months.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

The female was the biggest of the litter. The mom was bigger than the male. If you are asking if their show quality, the answer is no, but I did not want show dogs. She was probably 20 pounds before going into heat and she never misses a meal.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Sophiekins said:


> The problem is, I'm not sure it is safe to MRI scan a bitch that could be in whelp! I think MRI's in the states cost about $2000 per dog.


On the subject of MRIs.... How much is it to have it done over here?


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Could you approach an approved breeder and may be they could be a mentor to you... as you say every one starts some where. 
But I always understood that one of the pair of dogs was usually proven already. But I know diddly squat about breeding...


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> On the subject of MRIs.... How much is it to have it done over here?


One of mine had to go for a brain scan few weeks back as she was having seizures, admitted there was a full consultation included and some blood tests too, but that came to a little under £1100 thankfully shes insured.


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> On the subject of MRIs.... How much is it to have it done over here?


Done through the breed club it's currently an extremely reasonable £125 for a mini MRI for breeding purposes. When the KC/BVA scheme comes in and things are formalised the cost will be about £400. If what I have read is true, some breeders are trying to thwart the scheme as they don't want their results to be published! (which would make Cavaliers the only dog tested under a KC/BVA scheme not to have results published  which IMHO makes a mockery of the scheme).


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sophiekins said:


> Done through the breed club it's currently an extremely reasonable £125 for a mini MRI for breeding purposes. When the KC/BVA scheme comes in and things are formalised the cost will be about £400. If what I have read is true, some breeders are trying to thwart the scheme as they don't want their results to be published! (which would make Cavaliers the only dog tested under a KC/BVA scheme not to have results published  which IMHO makes a mockery of the scheme).


I think most conditions go through the "choice of making results public" phase before they are published by the KC and in the BRS - we certainly did with PRA and CNM. Ultimately, it will be the breed club I believe who advises the KC which way it will go.

I am however a little shocked in the price differential between the test now and what it will be after formalisation - this MUST surely be a double negative and hardly encouraging breeders to get such an important test done. (I recognise cost shouldn't be, and isn't as far as I'm concerned, a factor that should be taken into consideration with important tests - but nevertheless - from the little I do know - trying to breed this condition out of the breed is quite possibly crucial to its long term future? - and therefore one you would think some effort would be put into keeping costs reasonable)

Do you know why there is such a massive difference in price? I know BVA fees have risen in recent times, but they only add £90 to the whole process for scoring hips and elbows - the fee for which can vary enormously between vets and also whether you use sedation or GA.

Despite recent price increases, I still pay less now for hips and elbows with the vet I use than I did for my oldest girl (now 8) with my own vet


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

Ye, our local vets is in on the Cavalier Health Scheme, so we were told £200 for MRI.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't want to hijack this thread, but why do I keep reading so much about the health risks of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, but not about King Charles spaniels? Do they carry the same health risks? Just wondered.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm not entirely sure about that, but I think that the Charlies have breathing issues from the shorter muzzle, but I'm not an expert on them, sorry.


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread, but why do I keep reading so much about the health risks of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, but not about King Charles spaniels? Do they carry the same health risks? Just wondered.


The King Charles Spaniel has several associated health conditions, including eye problems such as cataracts, corneal dystrophy, distichia, entropion, microphthalmia, optic disc drusen, and keratitis.
Heart conditions related to the King Charles Spaniel include mitral valve disease, a condition where the mitral valve degrades causing blood to flow backwards through the chambers of the heart and eventually leading to congestive heart failure.
Patent ductus arteriosus, where blood is channeled back from the heart into the lungs, is also seen and is another disease that can lead to heart failure. Both of these conditions present with similar symptoms and are inheritable.
Being a short-nosed breed, King Charles Spaniels can be sensitive to anesthesia.
In surveys conducted by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, the King Charles Spaniel placed 38th worst out of 99 breeds for patella luxation; out of 75 animals tested, 4% were found to have the ailment. 
Out of 105 breeds, it placed 7th worst for cardiac disease, with 189 animals checked and 2.1% found to be affected.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

OllieBob said:


> In surveys conducted by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, the King Charles Spaniel placed 38th worst out of 99 breeds for patella luxation; out of 75 animals tested, 4% were found to have the ailment.
> Out of 105 breeds, it placed 7th worst for cardiac disease, with 189 animals checked and 2.1% found to be affected.


Have you got a link to this information. I would love to see where other breeds come on the scale


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