# little help please



## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Susie has just passed what I presume to be 2 undeveloped kittens they didn't look anything like a kitten just what I presume a embryonic sac
These won't be what the vet saw last week will they???


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Shouldn't be what the vet saw, hope the rest of the birth goes ok.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Good luck with everything and take a deep breath. Is it the embryonic sac or a kitten you're seeing? Not sure what the vet saw last week. 

What is she doing now?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

They look nothing like a kitten just a tubular sac type thing (sorry if description crap)
Susie is meowing and panting and very confused won't stay still until contraction then freezes.(presume it's because so young)
Had her at vet last week and they told me they deg sawtwo kittens but she got very feisty so they couldn't confirm anything else x


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Oh and she cleaning herself


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Is this early or around her expected due date? What color are these sacs?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Think expected (she a rehomed stray who turned out to be pregnant)
But going off how long I've had her etc she is about right hence vet visit last week to try and confirm dates


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Maybe you should post a pic of what she passed. Do you see any kittens at all and is it possible one is stuck? How long has she been having contractions?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Hope this helps
No don't think one is stuck no active pushing just panting and the odd contraction


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

and there were 2 of these?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Yeah the other one was smaller I presumed that to maybe be her plug at first


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Can you see a kitten in the clear part that is protruding from the part that looks like liver?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

No if you look real close the is like a center to it which look s like it could be the egg at the start if that makes sense


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Do you think she has more kitten inside still to come?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

She's still showing behavior of contractions etc but I have zero experience I'm afraid


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

how is she reacting to them, has she tried eating them? I am no expert btw, I just happen to be on, bad timing  lol. What I think I'm seeing is an amniotic sac with as you describe unformed kittens, along with a placenta.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

if there were kittens within those [presumably amniotic] sacs, they won't be alive.

 The OP 1st posted about them around 7:42 EST-usa. Unless the sac is opened quickly, 
once the kits are separated from the umbilical, they drown - for lack of air.

Graphic birth photos HERE - 
>>> Birth-of-abayomi-kittens <<<


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

She cleaned them then left them but kept going back to them I've moved them away from her now
That is what I thought as well just not so eloquently lol
And I'm glad your timing was bad and am loving different time zone xx


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

louise456 said:


> She's still showing behavior of contractions etc but I have zero experience I'm afraid


Well she sure picked a fine time  Don't worry we'll get through this. I have helped one other delivery whilst the experts were sleeping, lol. Fortunately that one was free of complications as the rest of this one hopefully will be. She could have been impregnated more than once.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> if there were kittens within those [presumably amniotic] sacs, they won't be alive.
> 
> The OP 1st posted about them around 7:42 EST-usa. Unless the sac is opened quickly,
> once the kits are separated from the umbilical, they drown - for lack of air.
> ...


Def no formed kittens in them have had a good look


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Eating ONE sac can help her milk come in... more than 1 or 2 will bring on diarrhea, in some queens.

Do count them - there should be 1 per kitten, alive or dead.
If there are more kittens than sacs, she needs a vet-trip to help her pass it.
Retained, they make trouble - they should also be intact, not with pieces missing.
[unless the cat eats a portion as it's delivered, but U should be able to account for the missing bits.]

All fingers crossed, & hoping for squeaking infants...


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> if there were kittens within those [presumably amniotic] sacs, they won't be alive.


No, and they were too small. 

If mum doesn't open the sac right away on these next ones, you need to open it and get the kitten breathing louise. If she is looking for the others, personally I would let her see them and eat them if she wants to. But that's just me.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Eating ONE sac can help her milk come in... more than 1 or 2 will bring on diarrhea, in some queens.


She should eat all of the sacs and left to do the work herself as much as possible. Louise is more or less an observer. Hopefully her kitty will know what to do. She is one year old correct?

There should be one placenta that looks like liver per kitten, count them and let mum eat them if she wants. She should also sever the cord herself. If not with clean fingernails and hands you will need to tear them about three inches away from the kitten


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

She's not looking for them she watched me when I was checking it but not bothered as to there where abouts


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> She should eat all of the sacs and left to do the work herself as much as possible. Louise is more or less an observer. Hopefully her kitty will know what to do. She is one year old correct?
> 
> There should be one placenta that looks like liver per kitten, count them and let mum eat them if she wants. She should also sever the cord herself. If not with clean fingernails and hands you will need to tear them.


Not quite one till next month but again with her being a stray guess work by a vet !!
Am leaving her to it just giving her moral support in the form of strokes when asked for xx


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

They look like placentas, this is the girl with discharge? 

I let my girls eat as many placentas (with live kittens) as they want. Some girls will stop after a few, some will eat all, some will eat none.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> They look like placentas, this is the girl with discharge?
> 
> I let my girls eat as many placentas (with live kittens) as they want. Some girls will stop after a few, some will eat all, some will eat none.


Yeah that's her.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

louise456 said:


> Def no formed kittens in them have had a good look


This is just my theory. The two were conceived after the kittens that she is in labour with and they were born too early. 

Is she having any contractions?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I think that would explain the discharge, the only time I've had a girl with extended discharge there was a kitten issue. 

She was on antibiotics before and after birth.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Phew! Thank God SC joined in


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Not right now seemed to have stopped she keeps heavy panting and cleaning but no contractions but with the others there wasn't a lot of warning just a couple of low growls then out


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Just keep an eye on her, she'll likely have a rest before the next arrives. You may see more contracting with actual kittens.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> Phew! Thank God SC joined in


You're doing well TT 

It's only 11am here so I'll be around


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> No, and they were too small.


i couldn't tell the scale from thumbnails, with nothing to compare. :nonod:

Hope she's doing well...


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Thanks guys she is resting so I'm going to join her as is 2.30am here and my little girl doesn't know what a lie in is!!!
I know where to find you guys if round 2 starts xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

louise456 said:


> ...she's resting, so I'm going to join her, as it's 2.30:am here, & my little girl doesn't know what a lie-in is!
> I know where to find you guys, if round 2 starts. xx


9:40-PM here, I'll check back around 10 & 10:30.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> It's only 11am here so I'll be around


7:40 pm here, so I'll be around.  I just heard a strange noise out my window. It was actually a baby fawn with spots crying for it's mother. :001_wub::sad: awww.

I tried to get my camera but by the time I found it mum must have found her baby. If I step away it will be to get a picture.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Hey just keeping you upkeep date she just started meowing again but that's all I've had x


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

If she doesn't go back into labour I'd consult a vet

Mine meow before contractions start, hopefully that's what she's doing


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Yeah was thinking the same thing I will wait till 8 as I will have to get someone to babysit my little girl or do you think that is too late (its 5.30 now )


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Are they even open other than a 24 hour vet?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

It's hard to say without actually seeing her, if she's not in active labour you can probably wait, but you know her best if you think something's wrong then take her right in


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

It's attached to a 24hr animal hospital so I could use in an emergency


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Not in active labor and seems OK she's just started re cleaning herself again no discharge that I've noticed yet though


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Does she seem stressed? You could take your little girl with you if you end up having to take her in earlier. I'm sure you wouldn't be the first.  Do you have transportation and all?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

No she's not stressed just eaten some food. I have transport etc yes, was just thinking would be easier without my little girl she only 5 and may get upset but I would take her if felt it was emergency.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Just take things one step at a time and worry about that only if and when you have to.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Is there any kittens this morning .... ???


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

just catching up on this thread. i hope she is doing ok now. whatever happens to any (if any more) unborn kittens, at least she isn't alone like she would have if you hadn't taken her in.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Cosmills said:


> Is there any kittens this morning .... ???


No kittens going to ring vet and get her an appointment see what's going on


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

cats galore said:


> just catching up on this thread. i hope she is doing ok now. whatever happens to any (if any more) unborn kittens, at least she isn't alone like she would have if you hadn't taken her in.


Thank you xx


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

This is why we was concerned over her discharge so early on, 

Is she acting normal now and can you feel any kits


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Vet booked for 9.10.
I'd sooner be safe and get her checked xx


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Acting normal eating her breakfast not sure over kittens I'm double guessing myself over everything now will see what vet says x


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Louise, what Susie has had is just placenta's, my girl had this 2 years ago where she passed 4 placenta's and no kittens.

Had your vet of looked carefully at the scan, they would have seen no heartbeats and could have told you exactly what to expect.

If you can see kittens moving inside then you need a vet, if she is acting normal and no movement or kittens felt inside then im sorry but labour has finished.

If her nose is warm you may need antibiotics, you do need to wait 2 weeks after labour to spay her so everything has settled down.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Just back from the vets and yes there are no kittens left.
She is infection free at the moment got to take her back on Wednesday for a check up but if I'm worried before then take her sooner.
Then we can set a date for her being spade.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

ah Im so sorry to hear that, glad Susie is all right - sometimes these things happen. Hope you are ok x


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_glad shes ok, sorry about the kittens, keep us posted._


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Aww, so sorry  I rested my eyes after no more activity late last night and ended up falling asleep until now. It's 5:40 am and just seeing the updates.

How is she doing otherwise and how are you holding up?


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

We're both Ok thanks x
Thank you for your help last night 
Just got to keep my eye on her for infection now x


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Just caught up with this - sorry it didn't go well.  As WLBSH says this was why the discharge was so worrying. The picture was of placentas. Let her rest now, and spay her in a couple of weeks. If her ears or nose feel really hot, or her discharge begins to smell offensive then back to the vets with you.

My queens have always eaten all the placenta and sacs - up to 5 in a go and we've never had dire-rear.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

louise456 said:


> We're both Ok thanks x
> Thank you for your help last night
> Just got to keep my eye on her for infection now x


glad she's OK, & sorry about the disappointment - i know U were worried, so was i! :nonod:

i'd ask my vet about taking a rectal-temp morning & evening - 
with a digital probe it's very quick, & the body-temp can be a good early alert for infection.
If U bag the probe [slip it into a sandwich-baggie], it won't get dirty, altho U should still wipe it with H2O2 
or medical-alcohol after, just in case - so U can use it orally later without any worries.

I slip the probe-tip into a corner of the bag before winding the excess loosely & then gently insert it - 
if U hold a flat palm under the cat's tummy with Kitty on a table or counter, her / his tail facing forward 
& head under Ur arm, Kitty can't sit down on the probe. U don't want to lose Ur grip, nor have it slip 
too deeply or poke sideways. Cuddle them against Ur body to keep Kitty calm, & it takes a few seconds
before the probe beeps. Remove it, note the #, cuddle Kitty *before* releasing her / him, & offer a nice 
tidbit, *ready to hand,* to make the next check a happier occasion. 
[U may want a paper-towel to lay the probe on, as only 1 pair of hands gets very busy.]

Then peel the bag off inside out, toss it, & wipe the probe; it's nice & clean, for the next use! 

i hope she's just fine, & is spayed without complications, poor girl. Here's to her new life! :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

spid said:


> My queens have always eaten all the placenta and sacs - up to 5... & we've never had dire-rear.


Glad to hear it, poopy bottoms don't make new-mums happy, nor easy to live with, poor dears. :nonod:

Our queens tended to large litters, 7 on average, & 9 wasn't rare - 
my personal kitty, an abandoned maltese [solid blue, every hair - but just a barn-cat] had 14 in one litter.


i tried for years to get my parents to spay her; luckily, she also had litters as small as 4, but she lived 
outdoors, & they would not spend the $$.

our Siamese queens were also very-fertile dams - "small litters" were 6! 8 to 9 was about average.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Sorry you went through all this in the middle of the night without much help - well done to our overseas members, at least there was someone awake.
I hope Susie will be fine now it's all over for her - I'd just advise you to watch in case she comes into call very soon after this and to get her booked to be spayed as soon as you can.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Just catching up ... Sorry to hear, unfortunately things like this happen... Just life ... Please keep her in until her spay, cos she might come into heat quickly, and you don't want to go though this again


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Don't worry she will be spade as soon as I can get her done I believe I have to wait 2 weeks but she will get done asap after that.
She's an indoor cat anyway so I'm extra vigilant with Windows etc 
Yes I was very thankful to our over seas friends last night :001_wub: thanks again guys xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this...


lymorelynn said:


> ...I'd just advise you to watch, in case *she comes into call very soon*... & to get her booked to be spayed
> as soon as you can.





Cosmills said:


> Please keep her in until her spay, *cos she might come into heat quickly*, & you don't want to go
> through this, again.


"kitten heats" are common - cats can have one litter out of the nest, one litter nursing, & one in utero!

be sure she doesn't *slip out*, especially now when her cervix is open & she's very vulnerable 
to infection.

Are there other cats in Ur house? Sexual play is not rare, even desexed cats may mount, so that's another 
potential for infection - just in case.  If there are other resident kitties, i'd segregate Puss, to be safest.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> this...
> 
> "kitten heats" are common - cats can have one litter out of the nest, one litter nursing, & one in utero!
> 
> ...


No other kitty's for her to get to friendly with. X


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

hi louise, sorry it didnt go to plan, but at least mum is well now could have been dangerous for her, you did really well and so glad you stayed on for the advice and support on the forum, wishing you and your precious a very happy life together, hope you continue to use the forum and some pictures of your lovely cat pleaseeeeeeeee 

ps .has the vet advised on food as she will probably need a good quality high protein diet, some raw maybe if she likes. also add a little warm water to her wet food.lots of rest for you both, treats and cuddles


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

poor mum and rip little babies, so sorry x


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

moggiemum said:


> hi louise, sorry it didnt go to plan, but at least mum is well now could have been dangerous for her, you did really well and so glad you stayed on for the advice and support on the forum, wishing you and your precious a very happy life together, hope you continue to use the forum and some pictures of your lovely cat pleaseeeeeeeee


Hope you continue to use the forum for some great advice and support. Again I'm so sorry, but you did all you could and the kittens, had they been born formed, probably would have had significant problems. Mother nature has her ways of taking care of things.

Well done for being there for her when she needed you the most and taking her into your life. Looking forward to hearing much more about Susie in the days to come. Now get some rest, the both of you


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this is pure speculation, & please take it as such - 
but cats can resorb a pregnancy, or a fetus, if the preg is dangerous to the dam, 
or if the individual is abnormal / unlikely to survive.

So i have no idea what condition she was in, but she may have been starving, & resorbed the litter, 
or exposed to something [antifreeze in a puddle?] that was toxic / mutagenic / caused deformities, etc.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

moggiemum said:


> hi louise, sorry it didnt go to plan, but at least mum is well now could have been dangerous for her, you did really well and so glad you stayed on for the advice and support on the forum, wishing you and your precious a very happy life together, hope you continue to use the forum and some pictures of your lovely cat pleaseeeeeeeee
> 
> ps .has the vet advised on food as she will probably need a good quality high protein diet, some raw maybe if she likes. also add a little warm water to her wet food.lots of rest for you both, treats and cuddles


Only advice given for food was to slowly bring her diet down to what it should be not tried her on raw so don't know what her reaction to it will be she's on Kitten food at the moment but was going to start looking at what is next for her as 12 months next month anyway any advice welcomed xx


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

With all due respect to vets, they aren't going to be your best source for nutrition advice. There are many folks on here who have a wealth of knowledge in this area and are more than happy to offer guidance and suggestions no matter what route you choose.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

I'll get myself on the nutrition bit within the next couple of days once everything settled down again xx


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear how things turned out. well done for taking her in to your life and looking after her. i'm sure she will be perfectly fine in no time at all if she isn't already. like others have said, please stick around and get to know everyone. this is a great place to make friends and learn so much info. don't forget when you are both feeling upto it, we'd love to see photos of Susie


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

My mummy says I have to say thank you to all you nice slaves for all your help xx


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

You tell Miss Susie she is quite welcome and is also very gorgeous! She is lucky to have found you.  Glad she' learning her manners, lol.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Awww...  what a sweetie.
She's a Ming cat!

Ming coat pattern - 








Ming cats are named for the Chinese dynasty in which they were often painted or drawn - 
they are bicolor, with markings largely confined to the head & tail, on a white background.
Commonest are black & white, with black caps & tails - individual white hairs breaking thru markings 
can also occur.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Awww...  what a sweetie.
> She's a Ming cat!
> 
> Ming coat pattern -
> ...


I did not know that!
Thanks for that info she does fit all of those descriptions x


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

wow i didn't know about ming cats either, thanks for the link, and susie is a pretty girl


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Susie is lovely Louise, and Ive just learnt about Ming cats too  Hope all goes well going forward with your special girl x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Awww...  what a sweetie.
> She's a Ming cat!
> 
> Ming coat pattern -
> ...


I thought these were called 'van pattern' maybe its same but just called something different where you are.

I saw a Turkish van today at the show a tortie one it had ginger patches on head ans tail was tortie,everything else was white,vety cute.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> I thought these were called 'van pattern' -- maybe it's the same, but just called something different,
> where you are.


in domestic-rats & Akitas, they call it "hooded" - i don't mind it in rats, but i hate the look in Akitas - 
like they glued another dog's head in place of the original, blecch. 

hooded rat - Brown Agouti, BTW - 








hooded Akita - 







it's not as obvious in this photo, but usually they're side-on to the camera, & the pigmented head
looks 3-sizes too big for the white body!, it's a very strange effect. In this pic, the dog is butt-on 
to the camera, so the head looks proportional to the body-size.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I hadn't heard of Ming cats either, interesting.  I had heard of Vans though, maybe it's regional?

Louise, how's everyone holding up? Any signs of infection? Hopefully Susie is settling back to her old self. Keep us posted if you're up to it.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> I hadn't heard of Ming cats either, interesting.  I had heard of Vans though, maybe it's regional?


Don't think it's an official breed or colouration used in the cat fancy, I only searched a few organisations world wide but didn't come across it.

I'd just call her the generally accepted term of bi-colour.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I tried Google and it found cats called Ming rather than Ming pattern cats.


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Yeah me too but I did find a description under van pattern but really quite honestly it doesn't matter what she is. She's ours and she's loved xxxx


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## louise456 (May 29, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> I hadn't heard of Ming cats either, interesting.  I had heard of Vans though, maybe it's regional?
> 
> Louise, how's everyone holding up? Any signs of infection? Hopefully Susie is settling back to her old self. Keep us posted if you're up to it.


Susie is doing well no signs of infection yet. Shes very clingy still and wants lots of fuss her appetiteIis a little off but the weather isn't helping!
Shes also been more vocal than usual but shes fine still managing to be a mad cat in the early hours of the morning!!!


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Thats good news Louise, pleased she is doing ok x


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