# How is there not a thread on this already? Congratulations Harry and Meghan :)



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Baby boy for them  

I love that they're being more private about it and Meghan doesn't have to trot out in perfect hair and make-up and heels hours after the baby is born! 

Good for them!


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## Bertie'sMum (Mar 27, 2017)

to answer the question in your title - maybe because not many are that interested ??????????????
Personally I couldn't care less that two very privileged people have just had a baby that is going to be brought up in the lap of luxury and want for absolutely nothing  I have far more concern for those being born into abject poverty.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Okay, cool.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Personally I'm not that interested but what I've found quite sad is the amount of criticism she has been getting (not Harry!) for not following certain protocols. Surely people should just be happy for them


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Well, I think it's lovely for them - and Harry was so chuffed 

So Congratulations to them both and welcome to baby 

J


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Very happy for them.

Harry looked thrilled when they spoke to him yesterday.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Surely people should just be happy for them


Apparently not LOL

IDK... I like Meghan, I get a good vibe off her for whatever that's worth. Is she rich and privileged? Sure, I guess so. She didn't grow up that way though. I don't know if that matters or not... 
Certainly her current status as princess doesn't make her any less of a human being in my eyes. And as one fellow human to another, I'm happy for her.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Apparently not LOL
> 
> IDK... I like Meghan, I get a good vibe off her for whatever that's worth. Is she rich and privileged? Sure, I guess so. She didn't grow up that way though. I don't know if that matters or not...
> Certainly her current status as princess doesn't make her any less of a human being in my eyes. And as one fellow human to another, I'm happy for her.


Yes, my sister was saying that in her office several people were making nasty comments & saying what they think she 'should' be doing …. again, no one criticising Harry … just her. Quite insulting on so many levels really.

I am one of those people who don't really like having Royal Family & whilst I think they lead incredibly privileged lives & should be expected to carry out certain duties & act in a certain way in this instance they are new parents & should be celebrating/announcing the birth of their baby as they see fit not how everyone else thinks they should.

I think this is only the start of the criticism tough, I think the media will be constantly scrutinising/criticising everything about how they decide to bring this child up as am sure they won't be as conventional as previous Royals …. which can only be a good thing IMO.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*puts flack jacket on*










:Bag


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> *puts flack jacket on*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I find that extremely juvenile and not even remotely amusing.

This is a thread about the new Baby. Why derail it?

There is already an active thread about climate change - no need to sabotage someone else's thread.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I am very interested but didnt want to start a thread . From past experience on forums i know their will be a lot of negative comments and it spoils the enjoyment for me. Im sincerely glad for harry and meghan and wish then every happiness.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It's the birth of a child, can it not just be a that? Why does everything have to have an agenda or be used towards an agenda?
Damn.....


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Congratulations to them!

Knowing the joy I felt at the birth of my DS I wish them all the very best 

Yes, they are privileged but they’re still human beings though there will always be those who will try and sour this happy event for them.

I don’t honestly think Harry or Meghan will take any notice of the haters tbh 

If it doesn’t float your boat - ignore it maybe?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Rafa said:


> Well, I find that extremely juvenile and not even remotely amusing.
> 
> This is a thread about the new Baby. Why derail it?
> 
> There is already an active thread about climate change - no need to sabotage someone else's thread.


Its actually a very serious dig at our hopeless media. Yesterday the media failed to inform us of the IPBES report (perhaps THE most important story ever) in favour of a royal baby.

I'm not sabotaging anyones thread, people can ignore my post, but I thought it important.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

Am happy for them. Harry looked the most animated I've seen him.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> I'm not sabotaging anyones thread


That is exactly what you're attempting to do.

I'm not going to respond to you again on this thread, as it isn't fair to the OP.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Rafa said:


> I'm not going to respond to you again on this thread, as it isn't fair to the OP.


Meh... I don't care, it's certainly entertaining  From a behavioral science POV you understand


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Aye.


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm a bit torn. I'm a republican so don't like what they represent. Having said that, they both seem ok as individuals and however privileged a life Harry was born into, I don't believe life has been easy for him. And the absolute joy on his face yesterday was nice to see.
But I sincerely hope they stop at one child. Harry can take as many photographs of African elephants as he likes in a bid to promote conservation but if we don't stop adding to the 7 billion of us already on this planet, then there is simply not going to be anywhere for them to live.


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

I think it's great news she wanted her birth to be a homebirth so I did feel quite sorry for her when the news reported she had to go to hospital,I can imagine them bringing up their baby in a more relaxed manner than other royals have done
I also think it's a great idea that they have asked the public not to send them gifts for the baby but if people can afford it they have names 2 charities in the UK and 2 from the USA for well wishers to donate to


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Rafa said:


> That is exactly what you're attempting to do.
> 
> I'm not going to respond to you again on this thread, as it isn't fair to the OP.


I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong, my post was pertinent. And this is my last word on this thread.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

She can apparently call herself Princess Henry of Wales, but not Princess Meghan. It is all very archaic and complicated! She would have to be born into the Royal family (like Beatrice and Eugenie) to call herself Princess Meghan when her husband is not with her. She is basically a duchess. They are known as the Duke and Duchess of Sussex rather than Prince and Princess Henry of Wales. The boy may well be an earl.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Vicbloss said:


> Harry can take as many photographs of African elephants as he likes


I read that she was trying to stop him shooting/slaughtering wildlife . . . I hope that is true, but of course, we only know what we are told .


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

I am not a royalist and do believe that the money that goes to all the royal family every year would be better off spent elsewhere
but in saying that as one mother and human being to another I congratulate them on the birth of their first child and am glad for 
them that all went well and mother and child are healthy


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Congratulations to them.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm actually not that interested in it, but not because they are royals but it's just "meh" to me. However I do think it's great that they have been more private and controlling the media involvement. My guess they can do that because they aren't a critical Royal anymore.

The above aside, it's a nice _*positive*_, welcomed break to the wall to wall Brexit and "the world is going to end" climate change news.

Both of those things are important, but media coverage of a Royal baby doesn't mean they are forgotten. Let's just take a break for five minutes, I'm sure those issues will still be there next week


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Congratulations to them, I love the Royal Family but I just can't take to Meghan, I have know idea there just I don't like her.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I am so pleased for them both. Harry looked so happy. I don't care how much money they have, a new life is always worth being happy about. Good luck to them all. xxxxx*


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

It is the first mix race Royal born in wedlock in UK me thinks...

A milestone in a way...
wishing them all the best...


Harry seems to be a pleasant chap regardless of his origins and I prefer the Royals to the Kardashians if we have to have celebrities to gossip about.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Calvine said:


> Duchess actually . . .


Oh whoops. As you can see, I'm very 'au fait' with all this Royals stuff 



Cleo38 said:


> no one criticising Harry … just her. Quite insulting on so many levels really.


Ugh... I'm with you there, not just insulting, but ignorant on so many levels.
And sadly still happens to us mere mortals too. Moms get criticized for every little thing, dads get praised for every little thing.
On the flip side though, it's just as damaging to dads IME. OH is a very involved father (see, even that expression annoys me) and the assumptions about him and his parenting can be pretty insulting too.


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## Guest (May 7, 2019)

Well I think it’s great. I’m not a ‘baby person’ in the slightest, but I have a sneaky affection for royal ones


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> On the flip side though, it's just as damaging to dads IME. OH is a very involved father (see, even that expression annoys me) and the assumptions about him and his parenting can be pretty insulting too.


Like when dads are picking the kids up at school or out somewhere with them. "Oh your baby sitting", "I can see your partner has left you looking after the kids".

No I am being a dad. People need to shake off the gender stereotypes when it comes to parenting.

/rant over, sorry for taking this off topic!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

i think its great and i do think he will be a great dad, but he will find it very different from being the ' happy uncle'
Meghan? im afraid im yet to be convinced. I really hope she is the one for Harry, as i actually think he comes across as more vunerable than william
I dont know her so cant say if i like her or not, so call it a feeling
but
in her defence
i do think she is the 'sarah fergerson' to catherines 'diana' regarding the media
and, in that, I do feel sympathy for her


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

stuaz said:


> Like when dads are picking the kids up at school or out somewhere with them. "Oh your baby sitting", "I can see your partner has left you looking after the kids".
> 
> No I am being a dad. People need to shake off the gender stereotypes when it comes to parenting.
> 
> /rant over, sorry for taking this off topic!


Nah, rant away  
And I really have no care at all at the twists and turns this thread may take - seriously, no worries at all.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I've always been really pro the Royal Family and love my history but recently I've felt more disappointed in them and lost interest. I'm glad Harry is happy and pleased for them both that baby Sussex has arrived safe and well. Who knows what the future holds for any of us, lets hope the Sussex's have more freedom to bring their child up as they see fit and perhaps break down some barriers. Yoga, plant based meals, meditation etc are apparently becoming the norm for them so perhaps there is hope they will set an example going forward and stop blasting wildlife out of existence.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I honestly don’t care. Well apart from poor sod and what sort of world will this child grow up in. I’m still pissed at Kensington Palace for being so out of touch they announced the pregnancy on Baby Loss Awareness day.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh, for Heaven's sake.

A young couple who are clearly very much in love have now a healthy baby boy.

Why all the bitterness and ridicule?

I'm sure they would have offended someone on whatever day they announced the pregnancy.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

I’m sure that must’ve been tough when people may want to go online for support and see a baby announcement. It would been hard to avoid I guess.

I’m glad all is well but don’t have any feelings about it. More focussed on climate news and don’t really do the hunting shooting royals.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Rafa said:


> Oh, for Heaven's sake.
> 
> A young couple who are clearly very much in love have now a healthy baby boy.
> 
> ...


Maybe pissed makes it sound like I've been cogitating for 9 months (launched podcast, talked at Barbican on exactly the opposite of bitterness and good mental health.. but hey). Nah, not in the least but the timing back then given mental health and loss are so fragile could have been a little bit better and really made me wonder if the Press teams at the palace are in touch with their public It's a very well recognised event with a wave of light and helps a lot. So yes, absolutely I think it wasn't good timing and no I'm not going to get into a debate about it. Those are my reasons and perfectly valid ones. Not everyone who has been affected cared but many were evidenced by a rise in membership to support groups and support given.

Nevertheless as I always stand by, I'd never wish my experiences on anyone else so it is good all is safe and well. But no bunting here.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I was never aware of Baby Loss Awareness Day and I'm sure they were not either.

And I lost five babies.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Have to admit I didn’t know there was such a thing as baby loss awareness day.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Elles said:


> Have to admit I didn't know there was such a thing as baby loss awareness day.


17 years its been going and whilst I don't imagine everyone would, a PR person generally would as media diaries record it. In fact I was mistaken... it's a whole week. It even has a hashtag and a website...


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Rafa said:


> I was never aware of Baby Loss Awareness Day and I'm sure they were not either.
> 
> And I lost five babies.


I'm sorry for your losses.

Maybe it's something I'm more aware of because I get involved with PR and support - I tend to have to write something at the time - but as I said to Elles, I'd expect anyone with experience in media, assuming that's a skill in a palace office to know. But maybe not as you say. One imagines that after the outrage on Twitter (when is Twitter not in uproar) they probably know now!

Either way I was a bit overzealous with the 'pissed'. Not really a bit astonished or mildly disappointed is a better description!

Apologies for thread diversion and digression and minor grump. One of those days, will log off and take a break.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

The baby was born on Sigmund Freud’s birthday.
May 6
And a day after 5 de Mayo 

So there’s that.....


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## MaggieDemi (Nov 17, 2018)

Congratulations to Harry & Meghan on their new baby.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

stuaz said:


> Like when dads are picking the kids up at school or out somewhere with them. "Oh your baby sitting", "I can see your partner has left you looking after the kids".
> 
> No I am being a dad. People need to shake off the gender stereotypes when it comes to parenting.
> 
> /rant over, sorry for taking this off topic!


Yep, my sister used to get so p*ssed off with comments about her husband 'baby sitting' the kids when she had a night out or being congratulated if he picked the kids up from school (she used to always do it but when he had a day off work he did). It seemed to be implied that she was lucky if he did anything involving the children or she had pushed him to do so rather than anyone think he may actually want to participate in his children's lives!

I don't have children but find it very odd the way mother's are so heavily criticized for their choices through from their pregnancies (what they eat, what they wear, if they choose to go out, work, exercise, etc) & it continues when the baby is born (home birth, hospital, caesarean, etc) & then how they raise their children. I honestly am shocked at how people are so judgmental, how people feel they have a right to comment on choices made, as if there is one 'right' way of doing it ….

Although I'm not a Royalist at all I think this is interesting time in our history for the monarchy as Megan joining them is very much in breaking with usual traditions. Unfortunately though am sure the media will still react as it we are trapped in a 1950's timewarp & any deviation from what they feel is 'right' will be seen as Megan being selfish/stroppy/bossy/rude, etc


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> Maybe pissed makes it sound like I've been cogitating for 9 months (launched podcast, talked at Barbican on exactly the opposite of bitterness and good mental health.. but hey). Nah, not in the least but the timing back then given mental health and loss are so fragile could have been a little bit better and really made me wonder if the Press teams at the palace are in touch with their public It's a very well recognised event with a wave of light and helps a lot. So yes, absolutely I think it wasn't good timing and no I'm not going to get into a debate about it. Those are my reasons and perfectly valid ones. Not everyone who has been affected cared but many were evidenced by a rise in membership to support groups and support given.
> 
> Nevertheless as I always stand by, I'd never wish my experiences on anyone else so it is good all is safe and well. But no bunting here.


Well said. Rubbish PR from the Palace.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entert...al-pregnancy-and-infant-loss-remembrance-day/

I knew of it too and light a candle. thank you for mentioning it.



Cleo38 said:


> Yep, my sister used to get so p*ssed off with comments about her husband 'baby sitting' the kids when she had a night out or being congratulated if he picked the kids up from school (she used to always do it but when he had a day off work he did). It seemed to be implied that she was lucky if he did anything involving the children or she had pushed him to do so rather than anyone think he may actually want to participate in his children's lives!
> 
> I don't have children but find it very odd the way mother's are so heavily criticized for their choices through from their pregnancies (what they eat, what they wear, if they choose to go out, work, exercise, etc) & it continues when the baby is born (home birth, hospital, caesarean, etc) & then how they raise their children. I honestly am shocked at how people are so judgmental, how people feel they have a right to comment on choices made, as if there is one 'right' way of doing it ….
> 
> Although I'm not a Royalist at all I think this is interesting time in our history for the monarchy as Megan joining them is very much in breaking with usual traditions. Unfortunately though am sure the media will still react as it we are trapped in a 1950's timewarp & any deviation from what they feel is 'right' will be seen as Megan being selfish/stroppy/bossy/rude, etc


Agree, well said. I am glad they are breaking with traditions, they need to but I do feel sorry for her. She'll be under the microscope and probably compared to Kate constantly.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

stuaz said:


> People need to shake off the gender stereotypes when it comes to parenting.


I was a single dad for nigh on 15 years - right up through the school years - and when i first started venturing out into parent coffee mornings or events at school I was frequently welcomed with the words 'Ooh it's nice to see a dad here'. I was asked so many times what job I did (when I clearly was caring for small children including one in a wheelchair). I was often questioned whether I needed to 'run it past their mum' when i made decisions (including at the doctors) but they got used to me and we got through it 

I hope things have changed.

But I did think Harry's clear delight was so unguarded. My nephew is a hands on dad (same age as Harry as it happens). He posted a great meme on his Facebook page

How to calm a crying baby....
1 Pick Up Baby
2 Hold for Approximately 5 years then gently place back down.

J


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I’m super pleased for them.
Found myself grinning from ear to ear with Harry during his announcement.
Diana has a special place in my heart as do her boys. 
Wonderful news!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't have children but find it very odd the way mother's are so heavily criticized for their choices through from their pregnancies (what they eat, what they wear, if they choose to go out, work, exercise, etc) & it continues when the baby is born (home birth, hospital, caesarean, etc) & then how they raise their children. I honestly am shocked at how people are so judgmental, how people feel they have a right to comment on choices made, as if there is one 'right' way of doing it ….


I was criticized for chewing too long. Nope, I am not kidding. I was laying in a hospital bed, one baby had to be monitored, and I was told that the reason that one baby wasn't growing enough was because I took too long to chew. My awesome nurse came in and ushered that particular group out quickly.

The most criticism I've gotten though is choosing not to spank or punish in traditional ways (and food, but I won't get in to food ). It's fascinating on a behavioral science level how threatened people are by anyone choosing to go against the grain in the parenting thing. (And I think we're seeing some of that with Harry and Meghan).
I was told on multiple occasions that my children would grow up to be delinquents, that I was harming their development... all sorts of dire predictions which shockingly, not one has come to pass. 
Now that our kids have grown in to pretty decent human beings, I get NO comments on my parenting choices. Which is equally interesting. 



Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> How to calm a crying baby....
> 1 Pick Up Baby
> 2 Hold for Approximately 5 years then gently place back down.


Ha ha! I love it! 
And pretty darned accurate!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I was criticized for chewing too long. Nope, I am not kidding. I was laying in a hospital bed, one baby had to be monitored, and I was told that the reason that one baby wasn't growing enough was because I took too long to chew. My awesome nurse came in and ushered that particular group out quickly.
> 
> The most criticism I've gotten though is choosing not to spank or punish in traditional ways (and food, but I won't get in to food ). It's fascinating on a behavioral science level how threatened people are by anyone choosing to go against the grain in the parenting thing. (And I think we're seeing some of that with Harry and Meghan).
> I was told on multiple occasions that my children would grow up to be delinquents, that I was harming their development... all sorts of dire predictions which shockingly, not one has come to pass.
> ...


Chewing??? Seriously?!!! That is hilarious …. & ridiculous.

My sister received lots of criticism because she raised her kids on a vegetarian diet. They were given healthy, home cooked meals & didn't have sweets or biscuits unless as treats. The amount of stick she got from (mainly her husbands side) family members was unbelievable. Apparently she was being 'cruel', not letting them have a choice, in danger of them not getting enough protein …. all the usual rubbish. Luckily she's not easily swayed but it's not on for new mum's to have to face this sort of constant nit picking.

She also has never physically punished her kids but they have had boundaries & rules. I don't understand why so many people seem to think discipline must involve physical punishment. As we know with our animals hitting them does not help with their behaviour or understanding of what we want so why is this any different to children? But .. I know people who do give their children the odd smack on the hand & that's up to them but it doesn't mean that the 'right' way to parent

It's just depressing that not only do people feel it is their right to interfere but that it is always directed at mother's which is very unfair & I honestly thought in the 21st century things would be a lot different


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LOL @Cleo38 your sister and I sound a lot alike 

As you know, my kids are now teens, doing pretty awesome if I do say so myself so the criticism has lessened. But diet and discipline are apparently hugely triggering choices and I've had my share of - to put it mildly, very uncomfortable moments.

Seriously, my hats off to Meghan and Harry, any deviation from the 'norm' in parenting is not easy, and doing it under public scrutiny even less so. 
I wish them all the best.


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

Saw some live pic's of the 3 of them earlier on Loose women,Harry looked so proud


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

niamh123 said:


> Saw some live pic's of the 3 of them earlier on Loose women,Harry looked so proud


I do think the whole nation was wondering if he has Harry's hair...and they put a hat on him as we all know the headlines tomorrow would be he's ginger or not ginger..very clever! Not that new babies don't need hats...but I do think it was more to do with headlines...

Though I am intrigued...

Ok will get my coat!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Wow..

Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor

That's definitely a break from tradition.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> I do think the whole nation was wondering if he has Harry's hair...and they put a hat on him as we all know the headlines tomorrow would be he's ginger or not ginger..very clever! Not that new babies don't need hats...but I do think it was more to do with headlines...
> 
> Though I am intrigued...
> 
> Ok will get my coat!


My DS was "Strawberry Blonde"!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

What a great name and so untraditionally royal
Reminds me of Princess Anne when they announced Zara's name

Think it reflects the amount of 'removes' from the big title this little one is


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> My DS was "Strawberry Blonde"!


Strawberry blonde is just a ginge in denial 
My eldest was real red red ( as his name is Adam, it was quite appropriate) he's now mouse, except for his viking beard


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> My DS was "Strawberry Blonde"!


I have heard the new name for strawberry blonde is Rose Gold!...honestly some numpty online said it about her clearly ginger headed son.

There is nothing wrong with the hair colour...one of my best friends is ginger so we don't mention the hair!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Just told my OH the name...he said That's a bit common! He does come out with some random things at times!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh What !. Archie;s a nice name fora dog ! What's wrong with James?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Oh What !. Archie;s a nice name fora dog ! What's wrong with James?


Might be tricky given the rumours about Prince Harry's possible parentage


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Might be tricky given the rumours about Prince Harry's possible parentage


:Hilarious That would be a bit awkward.

ETA I like the name Jayden . That would keep the Yankees happy


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## Raggie08 (Mar 18, 2019)

Massive congratulations to Harry and Meghan, and I love the name they chose


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Archie....I'm sorry that made me laugh, I'm old enough to remember Archie Andrews and that was the first thing I thought of.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> Archie....I'm sorry that made me laugh, I'm old enough to remember Archie Andrews and that was the first thing I thought of.


Teenagers will recognise the same name as the main character in the updated version in Riverdale! My niece met the actor that plays him and he was a genuinely nice person.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> Archie....I'm sorry that made me laugh, I'm old enough to remember Archie Andrews and that was the first thing I thought of.


I know someone called Archie, well that's his nickname. I got confused why everyone called him Archie, then someone called him another name. So he explained that Archie was his nick name from school as his surname is Andrews.

That's the only reason I have heard of Archie Andrews...

Then there was Archie from Emmerdale!


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## Jcatbird (Nov 17, 2018)

When I came across this thread I was interested to read all the different opinions. My own thoughts were simply, we can’t choose our parents or birthrights. I wonder if the baby will enjoy privilege or find the position thrust upon it as harsh? At this point it’s just an innocent baby. A new life may bring changes for the better in the future, either because of birthrights or in spite of them. We can only hope for good things all the way around.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> I do think the whole nation was wondering if he has Harry's hair...and they put a hat on him as we all know the headlines tomorrow would be he's ginger or not ginger..very clever! Not that new babies don't need hats...but I do think it was more to do with headlines...
> 
> Though I am intrigued...
> 
> Ok will get my coat!


Wouldn't it be great, bearing in mind Meghan's heritage, if he grew up with a big ginger 'fro


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

My OH suggested their baby's first name should be Prince


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> My OH suggested their baby's first name should be Prince


I'm not really interested in the Royals, but I'm glad I read this thread and didn't miss this little gem. Thank your OH for giving me a proper giggle this evening. :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> My OH suggested their baby's first name should be Prince


He could then, instead of changing it to a symbol in later life, as someone else did with that name, he could go for three initials HRH....we all know how that can be a touchy subject...

Am running away again!


----------



## MaggieDemi (Nov 17, 2018)

Welcome to the world, Archie Mountbatten-Windsor.  I like their last name. Didn't it used to be Saxe-Coburg?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

MaggieDemi said:


> Welcome to the world, Archie Mountbatten-Windsor.  I like their last name. *Didn't it used to be Saxe-Coburg?*


Yes, they changed it after WW1 to Windsor.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Archie;s a nice name fora dog !


I know two cats and two ponies called Archie. Is it actually Archibald or is Archie just that - Archie?


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

So they named him after my daughters dog

Hope he is as happy and contented as our Archie is


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> I know two cats and two ponies called Archie. Is it actually Archibald or is Archie just that - Archie?


I think its archie. I hope so!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Does anyone know who Danny Baker is and what he tweeted about the royal baby that got him fired?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Does anyone know who Danny Baker is and what he tweeted about the royal baby that got him fired?


He is a radio DJ and he tweeted an old photo showing a monkey with the comment Royal Baby Leaves Hospital

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...er-tweets-racist-Royal-Baby-monkey-image.html


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

He's a BBC Presenter.

He, apparently, made a racist remark about the new baby, using a photo of a chimp.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> He is a radio DJ and he tweeted an old photo showing a monkey with the comment Royal Baby Leaves Hospital
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...er-tweets-racist-Royal-Baby-monkey-image.html


Wow..... it's 2019 isn't it? 
I'm sorry I asked


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Does anyone know who Danny Baker is and what he tweeted about the royal baby that got him fired?


Yes..
He's a comedian/DJ in the UK

He tweeted a picture of two people, smartly dressed in between them a chimpanzee also smartly dressed holding hands with the couple with the caption of something like Harry, Meghan and new baby leaving hospital. It didn't go down well on twitter from what the news reports said.

So in my opinion rightly so he got sacked!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Wow..... it's 2019 isn't it?
> I'm sorry I asked


He has always been a loud mouthed idiot.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Is Meghan's race really that big of a deal? 
Or is it because it's coupled with her being American and a divorcee?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Is Meghan's race really that big of a deal?
> Or is it because it's coupled with her being American and a divorcee?


I have no idea but I just think people are going to be prejudice regardless...

Am sure there was some bits said about Kate when she was going to marry William, as she's not from a title. People forget easily.

I think a lot the Royal Family do or don't do get slammed by people.

However no one can forget the outpouring of adoration for Diana when she passed away.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I quite like Danny Baker & I honestly don't think this was meant in a racist way (judging by his past comments on media stories, etc) but more as comment on the media attention for privileged individuals that he doesn't have time for …. but maybe I'm wrong. Even if he didn't mean it in a racist way it was still a very stupid thing to post


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I quite like Danny Baker & I honestly don't think this was meant in a racist way (judging by his past comments on media stories, etc) but more as comment on the media attention for privileged individuals that he doesn't have time for …. but maybe I'm wrong. Even if he didn't mean it in a racist way it was still a very stupid thing to post


From what Danny posted..of course according to media reports he didn't think about it being a racist post, and agree with what you say it was more about privilege and the Royal Family.

I agree he should have been sacked though, as it's not thinking bit that gets me. You are in the limelight and unfortunately social media can make or break anyone, it's not rocket science to think before posting.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I quite like Danny Baker & I honestly don't think this was meant in a racist way (judging by his past comments on media stories, etc) but more as comment on the media attention for privileged individuals that he doesn't have time for …. but maybe I'm wrong. Even if he didn't mean it in a racist way it was still a very stupid thing to post


I was following him on Twitter last night when he posted it and as soon as it was pointed out about that it could be construed as racist he was mortified, immediately took it down and apologised, I agree it was a stupid post but Danny Baker racist????? I have followed him since mid 70s when he used to write for the NME, read all his books, listened to all his radio shows including his football podcasts with Gary Lineker and talking about racism in the game and I prefer to judge him on his 40 years of work


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

lullabydream said:


> From what Danny posted..of course according to media reports he didn't think about it being a racist post, and agree with what you say it was more about privilege and the Royal Family.
> 
> I agree he should have been sacked though, as it's not thinking bit that gets me. You are in the limelight and unfortunately social media can make or break anyone, it's not rocket science to think before posting.


Unfortunately social media is the downfall of so many people because as you say it's the not thinking & then it's out there for thousands to see …. scary in some ways.

I was listening to this story on Radio 2 on the way home from a dog training session & was trying to decide if I thought that he should be sacked …. in some ways yes but in some ways I think we seem to have a knee-jerk reaction in sacking people if they step out of line. But then I suppose if you are a celeb & a BBC employee (which he was) then you have to be more considerate.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

So what did he mean by posting a photo of a monkey and likening it to the royal baby?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693*

*Controversial comments*
It's the second time Baker has been axed by 5 Live and is the third time he has left the BBC.

In 1997, he was fired for encouraging football fans to make a referee's life hellafter the official had awarded a controversial penalty in an FA Cup tie.

He later claimed he had never incited fans to attack the referee, only that he would have understood if they had.

In 2012, two weeks before he was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame, he was was back in the news after an on-air rant in which he resigned and branded his bosses at BBC London "pinheaded weasels". The outburst came after Baker had been asked to move from a weekday programme to a weekend.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> So what did he mean by posting a photo of a monkey and likening it to the royal baby?


I think it was more a comment that the baby will be dressed up, paraded round, etc ….. I think … I have no idea really but as @oliviarussian pointed out Danny Baker has never given any racist comments in the past & is the sort of person who would speak out against that sort of thing.


----------



## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> So what did he mean by posting a photo of a monkey and likening it to the royal baby?


An extremely posh couple with a baby chimp dressed up in a bowler hat, coat and cane ie. born into privilege


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> Unfortunately social media is the downfall of so many people because as you say it's the not thinking & then it's out there for thousands to see …. scary in some ways.
> 
> I was listening to this story on Radio 2 on the way home from a dog training session & was trying to decide if I thought that he should be sacked …. in some ways yes but in some ways I think we seem to have a knee-jerk reaction in sacking people if they step out of line. But then I suppose if you are a celeb & a BBC employee (which he was) then you have to be more considerate.


Laymen don't get jobs anymore because you know once you apply people are there having a peak at your social media just to see if you are as good as you say you are, things like tweets, posts on Facebook are stopping people getting jobs in all fields before they even get to an interview stage now.

So am kind of thinking if we mere mortals struggle to get jobs and are being judged then why should celebs get away with it. Although I noted, media are saying why hasn't Alan Sugar been sacked because what he has said is worse! Which from the report I read....er yeah and absolutely racism.

I think they need to make guidelines, and if the guidelines are there then Danny was well and truly stuffed unfortunately.

Agree with @Cleo38 about the photo.
Several of us answered about Danny Baker, I cross posted rather slowly with others. My focus wasn't on the monkey/chimpanzee but the well dressed people in the photo, as I understood what Danny Baker was trying to say but wrongly. He isn't in to all the pomp and ceremony of the Royals, and some celebs...as we say here a picture says a thousand words.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I think it was more a comment that the baby will be dressed up, paraded round, etc ….. I think … I have no idea really but as @oliviarussian pointed out Danny Baker has never given any racist comments in the past & is the sort of person who would speak out against that sort of thing.





oliviarussian said:


> An extremely posh couple with a baby chimp dressed up in a bowler hat, coat and cane ie. born into privilege


Wow cultural differences! 
I would never have gotten that from a couple with a baby monkey! 
I've jokingly called my own children monkeys on many occasions when they were toddlers in to everything, and we do have the expression 'monkeying around' with something as in not being very effective at working with something, but pretty much all other references tend to lean towards the racist.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Wow cultural differences!
> I would never have gotten that from a couple with a baby monkey!
> I've jokingly called my own children monkeys on many occasions when they were toddlers in to everything, and we do have the expression 'monkeying around' with something as in not being very effective at working with something, but pretty much all other references tend to lean towards the racist.


I called many child a monkey as a term of endearment...

Monkeying around....there's a whole song about that isn't there by the Monkees!


----------



## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

The man is not stupid in my opinion he knew what he was doing


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

As a football pundit he knows full well about monkey chants and all the rest. He is a public service broadcaster so he knew the code of conduct for the BBC. He is fully aware of racism and it beggars belief that he did this. Any organisation that found an employee had damaged their reputation quite so effectively would have to take action.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

oliviarussian said:


> I was following him on Twitter last night when he posted it and as soon as it was pointed out about that it could be construed as racist he was mortified, immediately took it down and apologised, I agree it was a stupid post but Danny Baker racist????? I have followed him since mid 70s when he used to write for the NME, read all his books, listened to all his radio shows including his football podcasts with Gary Lineker and talking about racism in the game and I prefer to judge him on his 40 years of work


Absolutely. I'm mixed race and the "race" element of his tweet didn't cross my mind one bit, until it was pointed out that it " could" be seen that way. 
I think the world's gone nuts.


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

The DB thing is crazy... he is an intelligent man, but also historically liberal and well thought out.

It seems incredibly poorly considered and anyone can see the racist connotations... but at the same time it isn’t the Danny Baker people know, that kind of racism in a “joke” isn’t his normal style.

He is pretty media savvy...
Did he genuinely have such a blind spot, could he *really* have been that ignorant to it? I don’t know... it truly baffles me how he made such a huge error in judgement


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Even without any racist intent, equating someone's child - a newborn no less, to a monkey in any context is pretty unkind.
Don't know if it warrants getting fired, but that's not my call.

Criticize and mock the parents all you want, but saying that their newborn = a monkey? Nah... Not cool.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> The DB thing is crazy... he is an intelligent man, but also historically liberal and well thought out.
> 
> It seems incredibly poorly considered and anyone can see the racist connotations... but at the same time it isn't the Danny Baker people know, that kind of racism in a "joke" isn't his normal style.
> 
> ...


Agreed, I was very surprised. What time was the pic posted? Just wondered if it was a late night, a few beers, seemed funny at the time sort of thing …..


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Agreed, I was very surprised. What time was the pic posted? Just wondered if it was a late night, a few beers, seemed funny at the time sort of thing …..


I've posted his apology/retraction tweet on the previous page and that was just after 9 pm.


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Even without any racist intent, equating someone's child - a newborn no less, to a monkey in any context is pretty unkind.
> Don't know if it warrants getting fired, but that's not my call.
> 
> Criticize and mock the parents all you want, but saying that their newborn = a monkey? Nah... Not cool.


As long as the label is applied to all ethnicities equally, I don't see any problem with calling anybody a monkey.
What I think is more concerning is that DB thought that a photograph of a chimp being abused by human beings was something to laugh about.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

It is really really odd behaviour of Dany Baker. He has been somewhat contentious in the past. Radio London cancelled his show and he was so enraged they didn't tell him, he went to work as usual and ranted live on air so I can't imagine he'll go quietly.

But to not connect the chimp with racism I find hard to fathom... not because it is racist, I don't _think_ he would have intended that, but because it would have be seen as such and not for what he meant it to be (though it's a bit obscure for a 240 character explanation). Especially with his close connections to Kick Out Racism.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Here is his first radio interview

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...bakers-first-interview-since-being-sacked-by/


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Agreed, I was very surprised. What time was the pic posted? Just wondered if it was a late night, a few beers, seemed funny at the time sort of thing …..


I really don't think he intended it in a racist way and do see his "media circus" reason as probably genuine... I just.... am aghast that he was so seemingly ignorant to it on a platform well known for blowing stuff up having been a twitter user for years

Surely he has seen enough celebs commit professional suicide on social media to be more conscious of how things are taken


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> I really don't think he intended it in a racist way and do see his "media circus" reason as probably genuine... I just.... am aghast that he was so seemingly ignorant to it on a platform well known for blowing stuff up having been a twitter user for years
> 
> Surely he has seen enough celebs commit professional suicide on social media to be more conscious of how things are taken


I agree, I honestly don't think it was meant in a racist way. But then I also think that alot of celebs have 'people' who do their social media accounts or over see them & I doubt he would be one of those.

We all make mistakes, we all say stupid/ignorant things at times, some more so than others …. he's said sorry, removed the tweet, explained that it wasn't meant to be a racial slur so am not sure what more people want.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> But to not connect the chimp with racism I find hard to fathom... not because it is racist, I don't _think_ he would have intended that, but because it would have be seen as such and not for what he meant it to be (though it's a bit obscure for a 240 character explanation). Especially with his close connections to Kick Out Racism.


There may be an element of Old Guard comedian in the mix - not so many moons ago jokes comparing people with chimps wasn't seen as particularly controversial. There was a late 80s/early 90s sitcom called 'Watching' about a mismatched couple whose theme tune (which I can still sing!) included the lyrics:

_Every inch of him is limp
He's a 14-carat wimp
I would rather have a chimp
As my other half
_
Go back a bit further, and you have to wonder if some sitcoms/sketch shows would get past the proposal stage these days - and I'm talking true classic offerings such as Open All Hours, The Two Ronnies, Morecambe and Wise etc., not your second stringers. Part of me is surprised the ultra-PC mob haven't yet campaigned to get re-runs banned on the grounds of various -isms, to be honest! Anyway, I don't have twitter, so missed all this, but I can't say I'd have though 'ooh, racist' as my first response.



Cleo38 said:


> We all make mistakes, we all say stupid/ignorant things at times, some more so than others …. he's said sorry, removed the tweet, explained that it wasn't meant to be a racial slur so am not sure what more people want.


Some people just like feeling 'superior', I think... Or have a 'one strike and you're put' rule - unless it's them making a mistake, of course


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Even without any racist intent, equating someone's child - a newborn no less, to a monkey in any context is pretty unkind.
> Don't know if it warrants getting fired, but that's not my call.
> 
> Criticize and mock the parents all you want, but saying that their newborn = a monkey? Nah... Not cool.


Why though? Chimpanzees (apes not monkeys) are beautiful, intelligent creatures. Not to mention that we are literally the same species as them.

Eta I do understand that there are historical racist connotations but I just can't see likening a human (not on the basis of race) to a chimpanzee as insulting?


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

bearcub said:


> Why though? Chimpanzees (apes not monkeys) are beautiful, intelligent creatures. Not to mention that we are literally the same species as them.
> 
> Eta I do understand that there are historical racist connotations but I just can't see likening a human (not on the basis of race) to a chimpanzee as insulting?


Say that to the overweight people who get called elephants, hippos etc... No one can deny these animals are magnificent in their own right

Using an animal to equate to human baby is classed as an insult. Or using an animal to name call is an insult, pig, dog there are many.

It depends what a person extrapolates from the photo surely.

As mentioned earlier, it was the connotations of the photo what people can extrapolate from it as racism.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bearcub said:


> Why though? Chimpanzees (apes not monkeys) are beautiful, intelligent creatures. Not to mention that we are literally the same species as them.
> 
> Eta I do understand that there are historical racist connotations but I just can't see likening a human (not on the basis of race) to a chimpanzee as insulting?


For the same reason I would be insulted if someone said my newborn looked like a dog. I love dogs, they're beautiful creatures, but I don't want to be told my child looks like one.

And the thing is, singling out the child too. It wasn't a photo of a chimp family, chimp mom, chimp dad, chimp baby. It was human mom, human dad, chimp baby. That seems unkind to me. But hey, maybe it's just me....


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> For the same reason I would be insulted if someone said my newborn looked like a dog. I love dogs, they're beautiful creatures, but I don't want to be told my child looks like one.
> 
> And the thing is, singling out the child too. It wasn't a photo of a chimp family, chimp mom, chimp dad, chimp baby. It was human mom, human dad, chimp baby. That seems unkind to me. But hey, maybe it's just me....


You put it so better than me!


----------



## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> You put it so better than me!


just another monkey for the taxpayer


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

He is a total idiot . Was it intentional or not , I dont know but if he did know it would be racist then why would he want to wreck his career ?
The BBC showed only half the photo so the chimp couldn't be seen which I think is insulting to the chimp.!

ETA These type of photos with a "witty" remark are common on birthday cards etc .


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

bearcub said:


> Why though? Chimpanzees (apes not monkeys) are beautiful, intelligent creatures. Not to mention that we are literally the same species as them.
> 
> Eta I do understand that there are historical racist connotations but I just can't see likening a human (not on the basis of race) to a chimpanzee as insulting?


Undoubtedly, chimps are intelligent creatures.

However, having your newborn likened to one, in whatever context, is an insult.

I would have been extremely insulted if anyone had done that to me.

Had you just given birth and somebody said "Oh, he looks just like a duck I saw on the canal", would you say, "Thank you so much, ducks are beautiful"?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> Say that to the overweight people who get called elephants, hippos etc... No one can deny these animals are magnificent in their own right
> 
> Using an animal to equate to human baby is classed as an insult. Or using an animal to name call is an insult, pig, dog there are many.
> 
> ...





O2.0 said:


> For the same reason I would be insulted if someone said my newborn looked like a dog. I love dogs, they're beautiful creatures, but I don't want to be told my child looks like one.
> 
> And the thing is, singling out the child too. It wasn't a photo of a chimp family, chimp mom, chimp dad, chimp baby. It was human mom, human dad, chimp baby. That seems unkind to me. But hey, maybe it's just me....


I do see your points and yes I would possibly feel a bit affronted if someone said I looked like a crocodile or a bichon frise. However what I don't understand is when a chimpanzee is compared to a human and people automatically think it's an insult or racist. Why do our minds default to that?


----------



## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

I might be having a sense of humour failure, but taking race issues out of it, I can't see how it is funny. Am I missing something?
Also, I imagine the BBC's decision not to show the chimp was deliberate as generally people don't want to see animals dressed up in human clothes.

As for it being insulting, I've not had a baby myself so perhaps I don't understand, but I just don't see it as an insult.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

It's simple.

A Chimpanzee is not a human.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Rafa said:


> Undoubtedly, chimps are intelligent creatures.
> 
> However, having your newborn likened to one, in whatever context, is an insult.
> 
> ...


:Hilarious That made me laugh although I'm not sure if it was your intention
Tbf though humans do look like chimpanzees in many respects (one of the reasons I'm so fascinated by them, and the other apes) so I think the duck comparison is not as relevant.


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

Some people do look like ducks but that tends to be down to bad posture!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Rafa said:


> It's simple.
> 
> A Chimpanzee is not a human.


So?


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Vicbloss said:


> I might be having a sense of humour failure, but taking race issues out of it, I can't see how it is funny. Am I missing something?
> Also, I imagine the BBC's decision not to show the chimp was deliberate as generally people don't want to see animals dressed up in human clothes.
> 
> As for it being insulting, I've not had a baby myself so perhaps I don't understand, but I just don't see it as an insult.


Yeah I didn't think the tweet was funny either. But I didn't think it was sinister.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bearcub said:


> However what I don't understand is when a chimpanzee is compared to a human and people automatically think it's an insult or racist. Why do our minds default to that?


Because historically that_ is _exactly how it was intended. Have a look at some cartoons, advertisements, 'innocent' commentary from even recent history.

In many ways being able to say "I don't see how that's racist" is white privilege to an extent. No, you don't see how that's racist because your race has not had to recover from an entire history of being dehumanized, mocked, insulted, made out to be less intelligent etc.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

So, don't liken a newborn to a chimp.

I get that most of us who give birth do not have to suffer the scrutiny and criticism of the general public, whereas Meghan and Harry do.

Sick jokes about their baby, however, are wrong, cruel and hurtful. They have to suffer that, but it doesn't justify it.

They're proud and have a right to be.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Because historically that_ is _exactly how it was intended. Have a look at some cartoons, advertisements, 'innocent' commentary from even recent history.
> 
> In many ways being able to say "I don't see how that's racist" is white privilege to an extent. No, you don't see how that's racist because your race has not had to recover from an entire history of being dehumanized, mocked, insulted, made out to be less intelligent etc.


You have a point. I do understand how the nouns chimpanzee, ape, monkey etc have been weaponised. I suppose it can have two different meanings. The difficulty for me is as someone who knows a lot about the great apes, I can't think of them as 'less' than human. We are not superior. But I do get it. I just think it's a sad indictment of the human race that we think we are better than our cousins the apes. An extension of racism I guess.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

bearcub said:


> can't think of them as 'less' than human. We are not superior. But I do get it. I just think it's a sad indictment of the human race that we think w


Really?

Well, let me ask you this. If you believe the great apes are on a par with humans, would you be happy to live with an adult, male chimp?

Do be aware, I have some knowledge too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I don't think pointing out that comparing their child to an ape can be construed as racist comes from thinking that we humans are superior than apes. It certainly isn't for me.

It's that it IS racist. And even if that presenter (I've already forgotten his name) was not trying to be racist with that photo, at the very least it makes him massively ignorant of the prejudicial struggles of minorities. Which then begs the question, why is he so ignorant of the history? Is it because that 'other' history isn't relevant to him? Not interesting to him? He's never felt a need to learn about it? Not knowing is a luxury those of the privileged groups can enjoy. Minorities don't enjoy that same luxury. They learn about the racism whether they want to or not. Society makes sure of that.

For those who would like to learn more, this is one of the better reads out there about the history of equating blacks to monkeys. 
https://www.historyonthenet.com/authentichistory/diversity/african/3-coon/6-monkey/index.html


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Rafa said:


> Really?
> 
> Well, let me ask you this. If you believe the great apes are on a par with humans, would you be happy to live with an adult, male chimp?
> 
> Do be aware, I have some knowledge too.


Do be aware? Slightly odd thing to do say.

Of course I wouldn't be happy to live with an adult male chimp. I would probably be killed within a couple of minutes.

I also wouldn't be happy to live with an adult male human although that's not relevant.

Should probably have prefaced my post with my belief that the value of an animal is not based on its intelligence.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

You're missing the whole point.

It isn't about humans versus chimps, or whether chimps are beautiful and intelligent, it's about some fool making a racist tweet.

Do not try and suggest the chimp wasn't related to Meghan being of mixed race.

Horrible and wrong.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> But I do get it. I just think it's a sad indictment of the human race that we think we are better than our cousins the apes. An extension of racism.


We're supposed to be the intelligent ones and we are destroying our own world and theirs .


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I don't think pointing out that comparing their child to an ape can be construed as racist comes from thinking that we humans are superior than apes. It certainly isn't for me.


I think the superiority is where the racism comes from; white people applying a heirachy from chimpanzees to themselves and putting black people somewhere in the middle.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bearcub said:


> I think the superiority is where the racism comes from; white people applying a heirachy from chimpanzees to themselves and putting black people somewhere in the middle.


Maybe just read the link I posted.  
It's much more complex and nuanced than just white guys feeling superior.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Rafa said:


> You're missing the whole point.
> 
> It isn't about humans versus chimps, or whether chimps are beautiful and intelligent, it's about some fool making a racist tweet.
> 
> ...


Hmm I do not believe racism was what Danny Baker intended. 
But the intention is irrelevant; the impact of the tweet and its validation and perpetuation of inherent racism is what is important which is why I wouldn't try and defend him. He's an idiot and I can't bear how he wants people to feel sorry for him.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

bearcub said:


> Do be aware? Slightly odd thing to do say.
> 
> Of course I wouldn't be happy to live with an adult male chimp. I would probably be killed within a couple of minutes.
> 
> ...


If Danny Baker had put a picture of say a baby elephant and two humans...the picture would still be deragatory in the context of the baby being the equivalent of Archie, the new royal family member.

As it was he made it worse due to the connotations with using a monkey.

I went with elephant, well isn't Dumbo the film being released and circus elephant and all that. Which is why also O2.0 stated the scenario was wrong, regardless of the animal involved to some degree. Apologises for speaking for you but that's what I got from use of 'non human'

If you walked down the street and someone called you a pig. You wouldn't embrace it would you? You wouldn't think ahhh bless I just got a compliment from a stranger, it would be an insult!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Maybe just read the link I posted.
> It's much more complex and nuanced than just white guys feeling superior.


Is it? I have read the link. I can't see that the piece infers anything more 'complex' than straight up white superiority.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> If Danny Baker had put a picture of say a baby elephant and two humans...the picture would still be deragatory in the context of the baby being the equivalent of Archie, the new royal family member.
> 
> As it was he made it worse due to the connotations with using a monkey.
> 
> ...


I genuinely don't know? I think I've probably been called a pig or a cow or something before but my mind just doesn't work that way. I know I don't look like a pig or a cow. I am very literal though.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

bearcub said:


> I genuinely don't know? I think I've probably been called a pig or a cow or something before but my mind just doesn't work that way. I know I don't look like a pig or a cow. I am very literal though.


You may think literally, and you may think nothing of it but most people know using an animal name is an insult...when people are getting called a lot of insults there is a phrase, being called everything from a pig to a dog.

Like you say, you don't look like a pig, a cow, a dog, hippo, elephant all names I have heard as insults. So you would thinking literally it's very odd. Why are they calling me that? You would question it to some degree. Which means it's no compliment at all.

So why should people, regardless of status think it's ok to have memes, or tweets with a baby represented by a chimpanzee. As a mother I wouldn't be happy to be honest. Not that Harry and Meghan actually will know or care to some degree. When you have a baby, it's very rare to look at your child and think oh my god that baby has faults. You may adore monkeys/apes but a baby your baby or anyone's baby doesn't look like one either.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bearcub said:


> Is it? I have read the link. I can't see that the piece infers anything more 'complex' than straight up white superiority.


Wow....
So centuries of history of enslavement, systematic subjugation, discrimination, segregation that we are still trying to recover from today is to you nothing more than straight up white superiority?

You do realize that if racism were as simple as 'white superiority' it could be easily solved with whites just not seeing themselves as superior anymore. 
Which to a huge extent has already happened. 
Yet racism, discrimination and the system built on systematically undermining minorities at every turn persist.

Which suggests there might be a teeny tiny bit more to it than 'white superiority' 

The fact that this Danny person didn't know what he tweeted was racist or could be construed that way (supposedly) and that some on this thread are struggling to see how it could be racist - that alone shows how much racism still exists.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I will say, one of my children as a baby had a giant forehead, no eyebrows, massive big eyes, and a cute little bow mouth. She really did look a lot like the classic cartoon of an alien. We called her our little alien baby  Especially around my mom who thought we were horrible for doing so. 
But yeah, not the same thing. My baby, I get to say she looks like an alien. Your baby, I don't get to say that


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Wow....
> So centuries of history of enslavement, systematic subjugation, discrimination, segregation that we are still trying to recover from today is to you nothing more than straight up white superiority?
> 
> You do realize that if racism were as simple as 'white superiority' it could be easily solved with whites just not seeing themselves as superior anymore.
> ...


Your last paragraph is basically what I said in my last post.

I think you are trying to infer that by defining racism as superiority, I do not appreciate the graveness of it. This is not true. Racism is defined simply as the belief that one race is superior to another.

Inherent and unconscious racism is built on the foundations of racism. All forms come down to the simple (and illogical) assumption that a white person is better than a black person or other race/skin colour in some or all ways.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> I will say, one of my children as a baby had a giant forehead, no eyebrows, massive big eyes, and a cute little bow mouth. She really did look a lot like the classic cartoon of an alien. We called her our little alien baby  Especially around my mom who thought we were horrible for doing so.
> But yeah, not the same thing. My baby, I get to say she looks like an alien. Your baby, I don't get to say that


My sister said her eldest looked like a frog, and I kid you not she asked if he had Downs Syndrome.. Her second one they said he looked like bloke out the Addams family! I got asked why did I have nice looking babies... Thankfully my sister adores her grandchild and hasn't said anything deragatory of how he looks at all, and I think she bores everyone at work with photos!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Because historically that_ is _exactly how it was intended.


_Historically_ speaking, it would be far more likely to refer to the extreme level of inbreeding that existed amongst the various Royal houses of Europe.  Have a look at historical political satire sometime, it's often absolutely brutal compared with even what we'd consider 'on the edge' today.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Honestly …. if I had seen this tweet/post then I probably would have laughed … not because I'm racist but because I get where he was coming from regarding the media circus/privileged element. But yes I would have then thought about the racial context & winced. I don't think the actual animal was relevant tbh, it could have been a pig or whatever. It was more a comment on class & privilidge than race

It might not be 'nice' but then British humour/satire isn't always nice … remember Spitting Image? They were brutal at times & am sure Royal children were featured in that as well (not favourably!).

I am no expert on Danny Baker by any means but from I do know he's not part of the old school comedians, quite the opposite. I suppose it's all about what we find offensive. Personally I find the sexist comments towards Megan far more offensive & unacceptable than this ill thought out tweet but it seems constant negative, critical comments regarding a woman's past, appearance, opinions, etc is fine (& part of the norm) yet those are repeatedly daily in our press.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I don't care how he meant it, it was thoughtless, unkind and cruel and in my opinion he has got what he deserves.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> I called many child a monkey as a term of endearment...
> 
> Monkeying around....there's a whole song about that isn't there by the Monkees!


This is true, but his total lack of awareness of how such a picture could be interpreted is woeful imo.

I don't think anyone can be that stupid tbh.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> The DB thing is crazy... he is an intelligent man, but also historically liberal and well thought out.
> 
> It seems incredibly poorly considered and anyone can see the racist connotations... but at the same time it isn't the Danny Baker people know, that kind of racism in a "joke" isn't his normal style.
> 
> ...


My niece and great niece are Afro Caribbean and I'm white. I don't "see" colour between us - I love and adore them both - but I would not buy them a t-shirt with the face of a monkey on.

It's just being aware of the World around us and how other people can be. Sad sometimes, but there it is.

I just can't believe he didn't see how the pic could be interpreted.


----------



## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

To answer the original question: because it will cause some stupid argument on the internet. Somebody will say one thing, another the opposite, each will become more entrenched in their views, someone will post a link to show how well informed they are, absolutely nothing will be achieved.
So perhaps the real question we should be asking ourselves is how can we consider ourselves superior to other animals when this is how we spend our time? (Yes, me included.)


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

stuaz said:


> Like when dads are picking the kids up at school or out somewhere with them. "Oh your baby sitting", "I can see your partner has left you looking after the kids".
> 
> No I am being a dad. People need to shake off the gender stereotypes when it comes to parenting.
> 
> /rant over, sorry for taking this off topic!


When my son and daughter in law took my grandson to have his first jabs, my daughter in law didn't want to go in to the doctors room with the baby cos she didn't want to see him upset, so when they were called in, my son got up with the baby and went into the room. Firstly the doc said, is mum not coming in? Then afterwards he said to my son, I'll come out and explain to mum what we've just done and what to look out for and do if he's not too well. My son was really put out and said to the doc something along the lines of, Why do you need to do that? I'm his father, you can just tell me, I'm as capable of looking after him as my wife is. 
My son always takes Lucas to the doctors, and has been the one to stay with him when he's had to have certain tests, he's deaf, so has had to have lots of scans etc, and he always gets the same surprised look, because its him doing it and not mum.! 

I also apologise for taking this off topic. :Sorry


----------



## Guest (May 10, 2019)

Bugsys grandma said:


> When my son and daughter in law took my grandson to have his first jabs, my daughter in law didn't want to go in to the doctors room with the baby cos she didn't want to see him upset, so when they were called in, my son got up with the baby and went into the room. Firstly the doc said, is mum not coming in? Then afterwards he said to my son, I'll come out and explain to mum what we've just done and what to look out for and do if he's not too well. My son was really put out and said to the doc something along the lines of, Why do you need to do that? I'm his father, you can just tell me, I'm as capable of looking after him as my wife is.
> My son always takes Lucas to the doctors, and has been the one to stay with him when he's had to have certain tests, he's deaf, so has had to have lots of scans etc, and he always gets the same surprised look, because its him doing it and not mum.!
> 
> I also apologise for taking this off topic. :Sorry


I find it amazing that this attitude prevails. I'm in my 30s and my father used to make our lunches and take us to school and he was always the one who took us to the doctor. As children if we had a problem in the night it was always my dad who got up for us. It never seemed to be a big deal back then!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> My niece and great niece are Afro Caribbean and I'm white. I don't "see" colour between us - I love and adore them both - but I would not buy them a t-shirt with the face of a monkey on.
> 
> It's just being aware of the World around us and how other people can be. Sad sometimes, but there it is.
> 
> I just can't believe he didn't see how the pic could be interpreted.


That's interesting as it reminded me of a visit to Monkey World with a friend. We went with her son, daughter & one of their friends & in the gift shop they wanted t-shirts with 'Monkey world' on the them with pics of the animals at the park. No problem as they had enough money for the items but my friends son is mixed race & for an instant she was hesitant .... but then she decided that if that's what he wanted then that was his choice. At the time I honestly didn't even consider it an issue (but then as I am white maybe racism isn't always a consideration for me) but obviously she did & was worried about reactions.

Funny, I hadn't event thought about that as it was years ago ….


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

I must be really stupid! I didn't even realise that Meghan was mixed race! 
I've just had to go and Google and find a picture of her, to have a closer look.
She just looks to me like an attractive young women with olive coloured skin and very dark hair, a bit like my middle daughter, she's very olive skinned,and dark haired, very similar in colouring to Meghan, and she's definitely not mixed race! 
Shows how observant I'm not! :Bag


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

You have just made me giggle

But your right my eldest has dark hair and olive skin


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Up until it was mentioned on here, I didn’t know she was mixed race either. I don’t pay much attention to the Royals and although I did watch suits a few times, I wasn’t really into it and didn’t particularly notice her. When I did read she was mixed race, I didn’t know she’s the first mixed race person to marry into the Royals. I initially thought the fuss was over her being an American actress and when they said a divorced American actress, scandal comparative to Mrs Simpson. 

So Meghan Markle is a mixed race, divorced American actress. Lol. Just one of the 4 would be enough to cause to a stir. All 4 in one person, some people must have been apoplectic.


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

Elles said:


> Up until it was mentioned on here, I didn't know she was mixed race either. I don't pay much attention to the Royals and although I did watch suits a few times, I wasn't really into it and didn't particularly notice her. When I did read she was mixed race, I didn't know she's the first mixed race person to marry into the Royals. I initially thought the fuss was over her being an American actress and when they said a divorced American actress, scandal comparative to Mrs Simpson.
> 
> So Meghan Markle is a mixed race, divorced American actress. Lol. Just one of the 4 would be enough to cause to a stir. All 4 in one person, some people must have been apoplectic.


I'm so glad it's not just me then! I loved suits and watched loads of it, and didn't realise! 
We have a black gentleman at church, he plays the guitar, a fairly new member was asking me what this guys name was, she was describing him to me, and said he was black, and where he sat etc, it wasn't until she said he plays guitar that I realised she was talking about Trevor! He is the only black man in the congregation! I guess maybe I just don't see colour! 
Or I am completely dim!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Bugsys grandma said:


> I'm so glad it's not just me then! I loved suits and watched loads of it, and didn't realise!
> We have a black gentleman at church, he plays the guitar, a fairly new member was asking me what this guys name was, she was describing him to me, and said he was black, and where he sat etc, it wasn't until she said he plays guitar that I realised she was talking about Trevor! He is the only black man in the congregation! I guess maybe I just don't see colour!
> Or I am completely dim!


I suppose it depends on what feature/attribute is most memorable for you in terms of referencing people & at times it may be different, dependent on the person or the situation. Commonly the colour of a person will be the main factor & that is 'normal', I was recently read a book (Behave by Robert Sarpolsky ) who discusses studies regarding brain activity when looking at faces that are familiar (racially the same) or unfamiliar (different races), it was very interesting in the findings regarding this.

I don't think there is anything wrong with noticing racial differences & in some ways that's what makes us more interesting, I like hearing about other cultures, traditions, etiquette, etc but I suppose it's how we choose to interpret that information & our actions.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I wonder what Meghan and harry think of about it. 
I think Meghan is gorgeous and a lovely genuine person, I loved her in Suits and was thrilled when they married .
The Royals have always suffered at the hands of the press and from some of the public. 
All of the Queens children have had crap thrown at them . 

Every time there is a wedding or baby there will be people on social media calling them privileged parasites etc. 
I hope all the new generation of Royal babies will be protected and the press dont publish stories from other parents about their time at nursery school like they did with William .

Humour changes , there's always been taking the micky or p*ss taking . Dressing up as Nazis at fancy dress parties like Harry did , we had an Allo Allo party and we had German soldiers , we've always done taking the P out of Hitler like in Fawlty towers , it doesnt mean we were extreme right wingers anymore than harry was. 

Little monkey was a term of endearment years ago , people also used to use the word git and little bugger which when you think about it , is awful too.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Did anyone else watch this .
:Hilarious The WIndsors https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5692740/

and yes, Meghan was in it , played by kathryn Drysdale who was hilarious in Two Pints of Lager .
She is beautiful too.


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

Apologies for the link and please be assured that I am not accusing anyone of being racist, I just think this has turned into an important issue:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not-see-race-ignoring-racism-not-helping


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Vicbloss said:


> Apologies for the link and please be assured that I am not accusing anyone of being racist, I just think this has turned into an important issue:
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not-see-race-ignoring-racism-not-helping


No need to apologise  Yes , it is important.

Again, things change . When I think back to the 70s , the younger forward thinking generation were saying we're all the same , we're all human beings I worked in Southall at the Job centre with Asian , black and white people. No one was better than anyone else and we got on well and had a laugh .


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Bugsys grandma said:


> I must be really stupid! I didn't even realise that Meghan was mixed race!
> I've just had to go and Google and find a picture of her, to have a closer look.
> She just looks to me like an attractive young women with olive coloured skin and very dark hair, a bit like my middle daughter, she's very olive skinned,and dark haired, very similar in colouring to Meghan, and she's definitely not mixed race!
> Shows how observant I'm not! :Bag





Elles said:


> Up until it was mentioned on here, I didn't know she was mixed race either. I don't pay much attention to the Royals and although I did watch suits a few times, I wasn't really into it and didn't particularly notice her. When I did read she was mixed race, I didn't know she's the first mixed race person to marry into the Royals. I initially thought the fuss was over her being an American actress and when they said a divorced American actress, scandal comparative to Mrs Simpson.
> 
> So Meghan Markle is a mixed race, divorced American actress. Lol. Just one of the 4 would be enough to cause to a stir. All 4 in one person, some people must have been apoplectic.





Bugsys grandma said:


> I'm so glad it's not just me then! I loved suits and watched loads of it, and didn't realise!
> We have a black gentleman at church, he plays the guitar, a fairly new member was asking me what this guys name was, she was describing him to me, and said he was black, and where he sat etc, it wasn't until she said he plays guitar that I realised she was talking about Trevor! He is the only black man in the congregation! I guess maybe I just don't see colour!
> Or I am completely dim!


This is not a critiscm but perhaps a good example of this underlying, structural racism that was mentioned earlier in the thread. The assumption that white is the norm and black deviates from this. And the article above explains why not 'seeing' blackness is not as progressive as it may sound.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I played the Telltale game The Walking Dead, liked it and thought it was really good, so I recommended it. Someone said they’d played it, the one where the black guy rescues the little black girl. I hadn’t noticed. They were people running from zombies whose story made me cry. I had no idea whether they were white, black, Asian, or something else. I was too concerned about their survival. I’m not sure whether that makes me racist or not tbh. Or maybe it makes the person who told me racist, because they did notice and thought it noteworthy. 

I also thought the woman who owned a small yard I was at had blonde hair, she didn’t, it was red, or vice versa, I can’t remember now. I wouldn’t recognise her if I saw her again, yet I saw and interacted with her a couple of times a week.

There were cameos of people talking about being black and British and what it meant to them on tv not so long ago, they were really good. 

I’m not good at remembering names or faces. I’m sometimes afraid that when I haven’t seen someone for a while I won’t recognise them and I don’t always. I’d be a hopeless witness.

I totally accept that racism is a thing though and I don’t think it’s at all helpful ignoring it, hiding it, or pretending it doesn’t happen. However, I can’t help it if I don’t actually notice. We all see things differently and some people are totally face blind, so maybe cut us some slack.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> No need to apologise  Yes , it is important.
> 
> Again, things change . When I think back to the 70s , the younger forward thinking generation were saying we're all the same , we're all human beings I worked in Southall at the Job centre with Asian , black and white people. No one was better than anyone else and we got on well and had a laugh .


Definitely & promoting inclusivity was great but I think that sort of overrode other cultures & almost wanted anyone 'different' to be one of 'us' rather than embrace their differences … if that makes sense!

I think it's something that not easy & we will all have different interpretations. Language changes quickly & as demonstrated before on posts some people felt that to call someone a black person was offensive but referring to them as coloured was better ….. again in some ways although language is important at times it's the intent & actions of the person rather than the words they use. Using what is now considered old fashioned terminology innocently doesn't make someone a racist IMO.

For some people they are worried about getting it 'wrong', I think there can be so much vitriol directed at people who make mistakes (not talking about just DB) that it is a concern so people are worried about offending others. At work a while back someone was trying to describe a new person who had started but rathe than say the 'black woman with short hair' (we only have a couple of black women in my dept & they have long braids) they skirted around her colour … why? Being black isn't offensive or noticing someone is a different colour isn't being racist but it was as if they were worried to use this factor when describing her


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I know racism isn't a laughing matter but this is funny and it does get its points over,
Blackish https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3487356/

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...-creator-kenya-barris-on-abc-sitcom-black-ish
* Obama loves it, Trump called it racist: why Black-ish is TV's most divisive show *
It has divided presidential opinion with its treatment of race, but Kenya Barris's series is redefining modern comedy by balancing issues and laughs


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

bearcub said:


> This is not a critiscm but perhaps a good example of this underlying, structural racism that was mentioned earlier in the thread. The assumption that white is the norm and black deviates from this. And the article above explains why not 'seeing' blackness is not as progressive as it may sound.


What you're saying here though is that I (we) assumed maybe that Meghan Markle is white. I didn't. I didn't know what race she was, didn't think about it. I wouldn't use a chimp to insult the Royal baby though. If I'd seen it before I knew she was mixed race, I would have assumed that she was and the tweet was a racist dig and been quite shocked.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Maybe it depends on whether you notice if someone is white with blonde hair. I don’t notice that either. I’m not face blind, or colour blind, but I don’t tend to notice people’s dress, or hair colour either. It can be embarrassing. So, no, sorry, I just don’t notice. 

Is that my fault? Should I make more effort? I’m more likely to be able to recognise and describe your horse, or dog than you and use that to describe who I’m talking about. You know, the one with the mahogany bay warmblood who field jumps, the one with the little sausage dog, the people with the chestnut tb in the top field. If I was asked what colour the human’s hair or skin is, I wouldn’t know.


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

I, like many people abhor racism of any form. 
To me the colour of a persons skin, is as un important to me as the colour of their hair, their religion,their sexuality, whether they're fat or thin, whether they wear glasses, are able bodied or disabled. I don't care about these things.,
I'm interested only in the person behind all these things. 
I am interested in people's cultures, their beliefs, their traditions. 
I don't see anybody as better or worse than me, just different. 
I think everybody deserves respect and to be treated equally. 
If I don't see their colour, it is because it is of no importance to me. Their colour is not what makes them who they are.


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## Guest (May 10, 2019)

I dunno, the whole ‘not seeing colour’ thing is in a way a white privilege thing. Because many people from minority groups are fully aware of the impact of their skin colour, whereas white people have never needed to worry about their colour. Not having a go at anyone, just musing.

(Yes I am white but I try to be aware of the privilege that affords me, even if I don’t always get it right.)


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## Bugsys grandma (Aug 3, 2018)

Elles said:


> Maybe it depends on whether you notice if someone is white with blonde hair. I don't notice that either. I'm not face blind, or colour blind, but I don't tend to notice people's dress, or hair colour either. It can be embarrassing. So, no, sorry, I just don't notice.
> 
> Is that my fault? Should I make more effort? I'm more likely to be able to recognise and describe your horse, or dog than you and use that to describe who I'm talking about. You know, the one with the mahogany bay warmblood who field jumps, the one with the little sausage dog, the people with the chestnut tb in the top field. If I was asked what colour the human's hair or skin is, I wouldn't know.


This is exactly the same for me. If I thought about it hard enough I might be able to recall someone's hair colour or some physical detail, but that is never my first thought when recalling someone. I'm much more likely to say something similar to @Elles. Something like the person with the rescue collies or the lady who's always working in her garden.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> What you're saying here though is that I (we) assumed maybe that Meghan Markle is white. I didn't. I didn't know what race she was, didn't think about it. I


Not having to think about race is a privilege though. Much as we may not want to, those of us who look a certain way are forced to think about skin color. The world would make sure of that. 
I look like Meghan - I meal LOL, I don't *look* like her gorgeous self, but I look 'mixed' or 'ethnic' or 'latina' or whatever. I personally don't care what I look like, but the world forces me to think about it when random people ask me "are you white?" or "what are you?" 99.9% of the time the question is meant totally innocently, and with genuine curiosity but the underlying message is that I don't look white and that alone means I have to pick a team if you will. So no, I can't escape it or not think about it. Society forces me to think about my race. 


McKenzie said:


> Because many people from minority groups are fully aware of the impact of their skin colour, whereas white people have never needed to worry about their colour.


 Yes, this. Exactly.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Well DB has just Tweeted and apologised , read from bottom up


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Not having to think about race is a privilege though. Much as we may not want to, those of us who look a certain way are forced to think about skin color. The world would make sure of that.
> I look like Meghan - I meal LOL, I don't *look* like her gorgeous self, but I look 'mixed' or 'ethnic' or 'latina' or whatever. I personally don't care what I look like, but the world forces me to think about it when random people ask me "are you white?" or "what are you?" 99.9% of the time the question is meant totally innocently, and with genuine curiosity but the underlying message is that I don't look white and that alone means I have to pick a team if you will. So no, I can't escape it or not think about it. Society forces me to think about my race.
> Yes, this. Exactly.


Well you shouldn't have to. Pick a team? I'm not sure I'd want to talk to people who expected it.

I don't mix with society enough to bother about it and I wouldn't notice, or ask you. If that makes me some kind of privileged, so be it. I didn't feel very privileged growing up with cardboard in my shoes and being called names because I was poor, abused and neglected, I must admit, but I suppose it's a different kind of privileged. I'm expected to feel ashamed of it I suppose.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Who would 'go there'? Sadly plenty of people. Part of being 'woke' is being aware of this, that people do and are 'going there'  In Trump's America people 'go there' and find support. One of our idiot TV stars said a former Obama adviser looked like Planet of the Apes and Muslim brotherhood had a baby. Michelle Obama was called an 'ape in heels' and a well-known businessman who worked for the Trump campaign said of Michelle Obama “I’d like her to return to being a male and let loose in the outback of Zimbabwe where she lives comfortably in a cave with Maxie, the gorilla.”

So yeah, people 'go there' Danny. 

That said, his apology sounds genuine and I think we have to have room in the world of social media for people to fluck up, be human, apologize sincerely and learn from those mistakes. We have to accept those genuine apologies and leave that room for learning and moving on. I for one accept his apology and hope he uses this as an opportunity to get more educated on race and what it is to be a minority.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I wonder what the future generations will say about the views on race today , It might turn around and this generation will be accused of being racist .



McKenzie said:


> I dunno, the whole 'not seeing colour' thing is in a way a white privilege thing. Because many people from minority groups are fully aware of the impact of their skin colour, whereas white people have never needed to worry about their colour.


Maybe' white people have never needed to worry about their colour ' would worry if they were in a minority .
I wonder if white people in some areas were worried about being a minority would be accused of racism ?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> Well you shouldn't have to. Pick a team? I'm not sure I'd want to talk to people who expected it.
> 
> I don't mix with society enough to bother about it and I wouldn't notice, or ask you. If that makes me some kind of privileged, so be it. I didn't feel very privileged growing up with cardboard in my shoes and being called names because I was poor, abused and neglected, I must admit, but I suppose it's a different kind of privileged. I'm expected to feel ashamed of it I suppose.


Of course I shouldn't have to pick a team, but when you're asked as often as I've been asked some version of "are you white" you realize that your skin tone matters to a lot of people.

But, no. Pointing out someone's privilege is not about shaming them! It's simply to be aware. There are multiple types of privilege, none of them bad IMO, just something for us to understand. Being able to say "I don't see skin color" is one of those types of privilege. It's not a bad thing, just something to be aware of. 
I could also just as easily say that saying things like "there's nothing like a mother's love" is also a type of privilege. If you can't conceive of a mother not loving her child with everything she has, that too is privilege. 
I point out to my children when I help them with homework or guide them through an application process, or take them to visit colleges, or have a friend offer them volunteer opportunities, that's all privilege too. We may not have as much money as their peers, and be able to offer our kids the kind of financial privilege their friends enjoy, but they are very lucky and I think it's important for them to understand that. Not to feel guilty about it, but to understand that the playing field is never level, so keep your successes (and failures) in perspective.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Maybe the whole not seeing colour is just that. Maybe some people of colour don’t see it either and also struggle to describe, or recognise people. Some things are physical, with nothing underlying it. I don’t know my ancestry past my father who was adopted, so I actually don’t have a clue what I am or aren’t. Maybe if I was black, brought up as black and knew I was black, I would worry about it. That still doesn’t mean I’d notice anything about other people does it. 

Is it the first thing other people notice about each other? I’m really surprised. Had no idea everyone else was walking about saying he’s black, she’s white, they’re Asian, I’m not sure about them. 

I understand somewhat about the white privilege thing, but I think it’s separate. I don’t think not noticing is a privilege because I’m white and I don’t have to think about it, but something that can be difficult and embarrassing that I have to live with tbh.

And yes, I think I am supposed to be ashamed. I’m supposed to have the shame of racism, slavery and anything else on my shoulders, because I was born white, don’t understand the culture and should keep out of it. It’s like a man pretending he knows what it’s like to be pregnant. He’s not and never can be.

I agree there’s nothing like a mother’s love. I’m a mother, so I know what it can be. I don’t think it’s a privilege. I think those who have unloving awful parents, or who are themselves awful unloving parents are part of dysfunctional families. I don’t think those in loving families are privileged, they would be the norm, so we’d have to disagree there.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> Is it the first thing other people notice about each other? I'm really surprised. Had no idea everyone else was walking about saying he's black, she's white, they're Asian, I'm not sure about them.


No. No one is walking around categorizing people by race. Well, so strange white supremacist wack-jobs might be. But most normal human beings don't as far as I'm aware. 
The point is simply that being able to say "I don't see race" is nice 'n all, but for many people that's not an option because the world they live in constantly, in different ways, is reminding them of their skin color.



Elles said:


> And yes, I think I am supposed to be ashamed. I'm supposed to have the shame of racism, slavery and anything else on my shoulders, because I was born white, don't understand the culture and should keep out of it. It's like a man pretending he knows what it's like to be pregnant. He's not and never can be.


I certainly won't tell you how you should feel, but I will tell you that being informed about privilege has nothing to do with assigning blame or shame. 
FWIW, if you study the history of slavery and racism, we all - as in all races and nationalities share the blame - if we're looking for someone to blame that is. Which I for one am not. Just looking to understand better and learn more.



Elles said:


> I agree there's nothing like a mother's love. I'm a mother, so I know what it can be. I don't think it's a privilege. I think those who have unloving awful parents, or who are themselves awful unloving parents are part of dysfunctional families. I don't think those in loving families are privileged, they would be the norm, so we'd have to disagree there.


Well, you may not think it's a privilege to grow up in a loving home, but it is. As in it allows the person who has grown up in that loving home to not have to carry baggage that one who didn't would. 
Again, privilege is not a bad thing. We all have it in different areas. Personally I find it helpful to understand privilege and what it affords us. Damn right I'm going to make sure my own children have as many privileges as possible. But I also want them to understand them for what they are too. It just helps us better understand each other. We don't all come from the same types of privilege and it's good to be aware of how that can affect us as beautifully different and wonderful human beings. That's all.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I didn’t grow up in a loving home, but I don’t see people who did as privileged, so we’ll have to agree to differ. I see it as a right that some are denied, not a privilege. Sorry.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*On a lighter note, i do wish Dianna had been alive to see her grandchildren. *


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Is Meghan's race really that big of a deal?
> Or is it because it's coupled with her being American and a divorcee?


My hubby has encountered many people making racist remarks about Meghan since she and Harry announced their relationship. In his line of work he meets a lot of people and he's been quite shocked by some of the comments made.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> I called many child a monkey as a term of endearment...
> 
> Monkeying around....there's a whole song about that isn't there by the Monkees!


I call my cats and dog monkeys, when they get up to mischief.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I do see your points and yes I would possibly feel a bit affronted if someone said I looked like a crocodile or a bichon frise. However what I don't understand is when a chimpanzee is compared to a human and people automatically think it's an insult or racist. Why do our minds default to that?


It suggests that people of colour belong in the jungle and that they are primitive, unintelligent and not worthy of being seen as human. Lesser than white people in every way.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Vicbloss said:


> Some people do look like ducks but that tends to be down to bad posture!


And lip fillers.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Sacremist said:


> My hubby has encountered many people making racist remarks about Meghan since she and Harry announced their relationship. In his line of work he meets a lot of people and he's been quite shocked by some of the comments made.


Given its the 21st centuary and over 150 years since the abolition of slavery (nearly 200 years in the uk) and approaching 30 years since the end of apartheid it is desperately sad that someones race still engenders hate.

It baffles me that having a greater amount of melanin in the skin and therefore more protection from skin cancer but a poorer aquisition of vitamin D in less sunny environments should make a person in some way "less" than a person who is better adapted to producing vitamin D in northern countries but is at greater risk of skin cancer due to less melanin in their skin. Its the fear of someone being different that seems to undepin much rascism.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> I didn't grow up in a loving home, but I don't see people who did as privileged, so we'll have to agree to differ. I see it as a right that some are denied, not a privilege. Sorry.


No need to apologize 
It's not that we differ, it's that we're not using the term privilege the same way. You or I don't get to decide what privilege is as individuals, our culture does.

This is an example of a privilege walk activity. I don't know if the link will work for you, it's a PDF file. But note that it starts by explaining that:
"The purpose of the Privilege Walk Activity is to learn to recognize how power and privilege can affect our lives even when we are not aware it is happening. The purpose is not to blame anyone for having more power or privilege or for receiving more help in achieving goals, but to have an opportunity to identify both obstacles and benefits experienced in our life."
https://www.albany.edu/ssw/efc/pdf/Module 5_1_Privilege Walk Activity.pdf
Also note what sorts of things count as privilege in this example. It's in the US so being born in the US counts as a privilege, in the UK that would not matter. Again, culture decides privilege, not individuals.

So yes, someone who grows up in a loving home may not be privileg*ed* in that they may be poor, they may have disabilities, they may have other hardships. But that doesn't mean a loving home isn't a privilege. One of many, but still counts as one.



Sacremist said:


> My hubby has encountered many people making racist remarks about Meghan since she and Harry announced their relationship. In his line of work he meets a lot of people and he's been quite shocked by some of the comments made.


That's very sad. 
And just goes to show that just because you or I may not think of her as any particular race, to others, it very much does matter


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Not having to think about race is a privilege though. Much as we may not want to, those of us who look a certain way are forced to think about skin color. The world would make sure of that.
> I look like Meghan - I meal LOL, I don't *look* like her gorgeous self, but I look 'mixed' or 'ethnic' or 'latina' or whatever. I personally don't care what I look like, but the world forces me to think about it when random people ask me "are you white?" or "what are you?" 99.9% of the time the question is meant totally innocently, and with genuine curiosity but the underlying message is that I don't look white and that alone means I have to pick a team if you will. So no, I can't escape it or not think about it. Society forces me to think about my race.
> Yes, this. Exactly.


My hubby looks Mexican. He isn't, but he has been asked.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

By the way, has anyone reading this thread read Trevor Noah's book "Born a Crime"? 
I absolutely loved it, laughed out loud and still chuckle to myself at different parts of it. He makes some really salient observations about racism, and I personally was very interested in his descriptions of the different expressions of racism in different countries. 
Anyway, great read if anyone's interested.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> It's not that we differ, it's that we're not using the term privilege the same way. *You or I don't get to decide what privilege is as individuals, our culture does*.


I'm not so sure about that, there is definitely an aspect of personal interpretation too. That which you or society might consider a privilege, for example, someone else might consider a drawback in their situation.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> I'm not so sure about that, there is definitely an aspect of personal interpretation too. That which you or society might consider a privilege, for example, someone else might consider a drawback in their situation.


You don't get to opt out of inherent privilege. It's an external force.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> I'm not so sure about that, there is definitely an aspect of personal interpretation too.


Yes, there is. If you read the link I posted, there is a section there about how individuals feel about where they land on the privilege walk. Of course we all deal with the hand we're dealt differently. But that doesn't change the fact that culture dictates privilege.

Whether you use that to your advantage or not is a separate issue.

Personally I like being - for lack of a better word, 'confusing' to people. I like that I'm not easy to put in to a category. My race, ethnicity, nationality are all non-traditional and not easily defined. Now, as middle aged, happy, fulfilled, accomplished person, I like it. As a teen, I found it extremely difficult and isolating. But over time that extra burden I carried made me stronger and I'm glad for that.

There are also those who have experienced tremendous privilege in all incarnations and for different reasons end up much further back in life. There's all sorts of outcomes, and privilege is just one of multiple factors that determine a person's life outcomes.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

bearcub said:


> You don't get to opt out of inherent privilege. It's an external force.


Well no, not always. But you CAN always choose whether to use it for Evil or for Good, even if you can't always choose not to use it at all.

Not that your choice will make an ounce of difference to the amount of criticism you get (both overall and consistently from some parties who only seem to be happy when they are being negative about something  ) - and heaven help you if you should ever make a mistake! Sometimes it seems these days that failure is forever, not just an opportunity to learn and do better next time, even though he who never made a mistake never made anything. But I'd rather try to do right and make mistakes than go through life being an exploitative jerk


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *On a lighter note, i do wish Dianna had been alive to see her grandchildren. *


Ah me too. Its so sad to know you baby will never know your mum.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I still don't understand why saying Coloured is racist yet its ok to say people of Colour .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> I still don't understand why saying Coloured is racist yet its ok to say people of Colour .


I don't think _saying_ colored is racist, but it can be insensitive. Again, it's about knowing/understanding the history.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Elles said:


> So Meghan Markle is a mixed race, divorced American actress. Lol. Just one of the 4 would be enough to cause to a stir. All 4 in one person, some people must have been apoplectic.


Yep: four out of four's not bad!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I don't think _saying_ colored is racist, but it can be insensitive. Again, it's about knowing/understanding the history.


There was a time when people renting out rooms in London had a sign: Room to rent. No blacks, no Irish, no dogs.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I don't think _saying_ colored is racist, but it can be insensitive. Again, it's about knowing/understanding the history.


 Yes I understand why coloured isnt used but to me , it still doesn't explain it, there's not much difference between the two. Why use the word colour at all ?
In the UK there was this









The reason we said coloured in the 70s was because it was considered derogatory to say the blacks .


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I am surprised when people say they didn't know Ms Markle was biracial. Harry complained about the racism in 2016 and the press had a field day reacting to it
https://www.royal.uk/statement-communications-secretary-prince-harry
The wedding brought it front and centre, there was massive coverage about what it means to black Britons, and there were articles all over the media about how finally there would be representation in the Royal family.

And in Suits - her Dad was Wendell Pierce!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> it was considered derogatory to say the blacks


That's right, it was considered less demeaning; and in SA, people were classified as black, white or coloured (coloured being mixed race). Coloureds were generally bilingual.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I didn’t really watch suits that much, I saw it a few times. I think I was binging Boston Legal at the time, so didn’t pay it much attention. I don’t read the papers. I really don’t read celeb/royal stuff. So I’m sorry, but this is where I get my news, other than maybe the beeb in the middle of the night, which is different. If it ain’t on petforums it can’t be that newsworthy.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> That's right, it was considered less demeaning; and in SA, people were classified as black, white or coloured (coloured being mixed race). Coloureds were generally bilingual.


Yes indeed,
@02.0 What brought it up in my mind was the recent outcry on Twitter when Anna Rudd MP referred to Diana Abbot as coloured,
The younger ones were definitely saying that she was racist as well as Diane herself. .

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/amber-rudd-diane-abbott-coloured-woman-bbc-radio-interview/

She was sympathising with Diane about the abuse she has suffered from racists and said

'It's definitely is worse if you're a woman, and it's worst of all if you're a coloured woman'

Dianne responded on Twitter.



Diane Abbott *✔* @HackneyAbbott 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1103662137636016128The term "coloured", is an outdated, offensive and revealing choice of words.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I still don't understand why saying Coloured is racist yet its ok to say people of Colour .


I didn't know there was a difference either except, of course, the reason given by social services. I used to do voluntary work in a day centre with adults who had severe learning disabilities. I remember social services being very keen on using correct terminology. You could not say elderly people but people who are elderly, for instance. The reason given for this is that we are people first and foremost and not the labels such as elderly, disabled, coloured etc., and so we must say people who have a severe learning disability, people of colour, and so on.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> worst of all if you're a coloured woman'


Which is exactly the same as saying ''if you are a woman of colour'' surely? But quite honestly, Diane Abbot has made some pretty racist comments herself in her time.



Sacremist said:


> people of colour


I take your point; but why not say ''people who are black'' if the word ''colour(ed)'' is so offensive?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Which is exactly the same as saying ''if you are a woman of colour'' surely? But quite honestly, Diane Abbot has made some pretty racist comments herself in her time.
> 
> I take your point; but why not say ''people who are black'' if the word ''colour(ed)'' is so offensive?


Not sure really. I tend to say people of colour because I've heard it used frequently on TV plus it includes Asians as well as blacks.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

TBH different terms have different connotations in different places. In the south in the US you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that colored is no longer an appropriate term. That said, I have seen in person it be forgiven or overlooked when people in their 80's or older use it. 
By the same token, if I used a term incorrectly or inappropriately, or do something not right, I would hope to be corrected and educated about it. Most people in normal human settings (not social media) are perfectly fine with innocent mistakes and deal with it completely uneventfully. I've definitely been called up on my own errors, I apologize, it's understood that it was an innocent mistake, done. No big deal.

To add to the above, in the world of media and social media, we've got to figure out how to make room for people to make genuine mistakes, apologize, and recover. If someone is ignorant, educate them, don't berate them. It's okay to not know, or not understand something, and there has to be room in our conversations to be able to ask questions without fear of being labeled or attacked.
Of course those who do make mistakes have to own them and not get all defensive jumping up and down 'how dare you call me a racist' and refuse to take any responsibility or learn anything. Or pretend they did nothing wrong some other way. Not that it applies in this case, but it does happen that way too. And that's not helpful either.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Whilst I appreciate that language is important I do think we get too hung up with words & what is 'right' & what is 'wrong' … is this really such a problem in RL? IME it's not at all. It seems to be a really big deal for discussion on social media/forums. debate on TV, etc but when chatting with people in RL regarding terminology (& I mean different races of people) no-one seems to be that bothered. Am wondering if that's just people I know or is the norm ...


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Calvine said:


> That's right, it was considered less demeaning; and in SA, people were classified as black, white or coloured (coloured being mixed race). Coloureds were generally bilingual.


The difference is that in South Africa it's not considered demeaning to be called, or indeed to be "coloured". To be coloured simply means that you are neither black nor white but a mix of the two .... nothing more than that! Then of course you have the Cape Coloureds who are an ethnic group in their own right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Coloured

The term "coloured" is currently treated as a neutral description in Southern Africa, classifying people of mixed race ancestry. Since 1994, at the beginning of "The new South Africa", the term Cape Coloured became a badge of honor to this group of people.

Once used in the Western countries as well, especially so in North America, the term has shifted in meaning and is now regarded as derogatory in the Western World; a newly-coined term "person of color" has since become common and preferred by the members of the community and the general populace. This term tends to mean any non-white person, as opposed to a mixed-race person, where the term "multiracial" is used. "Coloured" may also be seen as offensive in some other western countries, such as Britain.[11]


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> I am surprised when people say they didn't know Ms Markle was biracial. Harry complained about the racism in 2016 and the press had a field day reacting to it
> https://www.royal.uk/statement-communications-secretary-prince-harry
> The wedding brought it front and centre, there was massive coverage about what it means to black Britons, and there were articles all over the media about how finally there would be representation in the Royal family.
> 
> And in Suits - her Dad was Wendell Pierce!


I hadn't a clue! Nor that she was divorced, or an actress - never watched Suits, and I don't read gossip rags or follow much mainstream news. Just wanted them to be happy together, that's all.



Sacremist said:


> I didn't know there was a difference either except, of course, the reason given by social services. I used to do voluntary work in a day centre with adults who had severe learning disabilities. I remember social services being very keen on using correct terminology. You could not say elderly people but people who are elderly, for instance. The reason given for this is that we are people first and foremost and not the labels such as elderly, disabled, coloured etc., and so we must say people who have a severe learning disability, people of colour, and so on.


I have to confess I've give up trying to keep up with whatever are considered the precisely politically correct terms of the moment. My best friend is in a wheelchair, another close friend is blind, I work in an office next to several black ladies, I used to go entertaining (singing) at an Age Concern centre - and none of them seem to take these things anywere near as seriously as non-<whatevers> trying to figure out/tell us how not to be offensive  Most of the time as long I find people are aware you're trying not to offend and will simply correct you without condemning you if you don't get it right.



kimthecat said:


> Dianne responded on Twitter.
> 
> Diane Abbott *✔* @HackneyAbbott
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1103662137636016128The term "coloured", is an outdated*, offensive and revealing *choice of words.


Now this is a response I would struggle with - particulary the 'revealing' part. The other lady was obviously just trying to show she sympathised about the racist abuse but happened to pick a wrong term, and had I been her I would have found a response like that a slap in the face. Why not just stick with 'outdated' and say what would be preferred? Yes, people need educating, and we all know how frustrating repeating the same thing over and over can get, but I can't help think saying things like that to people who simply made a genuine error does more harm than good.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Around 14 years ago hubby and I went to the Supreme cat show and asked a young woman serving drinks for two black coffees. The lady in question was black and accused us of being racist. We were utterly dumbfounded.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Sacremist said:


> Around 14 years ago hubby and I went to the Supreme cat show and asked a young woman serving drinks for two black coffees. The lady in question was black and accused us of being racist. We were utterly dumbfounded.


That's as silly as the baa baa black sheep, had to have baa baa white sheep too then to make it easier in nurseries they added rainbow sheep! No one got it... Using a colour to be descriptive of an animal is normal isn't it? My Yorkie is black and tan how else would I describe him!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

lullabydream said:


> That's as silly as the baa baa black sheep, had to have baa baa white sheep too then to make it easier in nurseries they added rainbow sheep! No one got it... Using a colour to be descriptive of an animal is normal isn't it? My Yorkie is black and tan how else would I describe him!


I've got a Schnauzer who's mostly referred to as the small black hairy creature

I often used to get teased about being white by the black nurses I worked with in South Africa One of the favourites was if you were talking outside in the sun, to be told to move into the shade because although you might need a tan, they didn't!

I remember one day we needed to buy some things for a project we were working on. Normally three of four of us would go together, but on this occasion because the shop was in a dangerous part of town, I was told it was better if I didn't go with them because being white I'd "stick out like a sore thumb"!

Those were good day!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Calvine said:


> But quite honestly, Diane Abbot has made some pretty racist comments herself in her time.


Do you have an example of this?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> That's as silly as the baa baa black sheep, had to have baa baa white sheep too then to make it easier in nurseries they added rainbow sheep! No one got it... Using a colour to be descriptive of an animal is normal isn't it? My Yorkie is black and tan how else would I describe him!


It does sometimes feel like it's pc gone mad.


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## Guest (May 10, 2019)

I feel like there’s confusion over what ‘privilege’ (or in this case ‘white privilege) actually is. It’s not about not being judged, or not having racist remarks directed at you, it’s so much deeper and more subtle than that. It’s about things like being able to go to the library and find a picture book with pictures of people that look like your child. Knowing that if you get turned down from a job or miss out on renting a house or are arrested it doesn’t have anything to do with your skin colour. That that choices you make aren’t held up as an example of your race. That sort of stuff is white privilege.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Do you have an example of this?


There was a big fuss a while back when she tweeted 
*'*White people love playing divide and rule, We should not play there game. '

She did later apologise.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> There was a big fuss a while back when she tweeted
> *'*White people love playing divide and rule, We should not play there game. '
> 
> She did later apologise.


And this was considered to be racist? It's really, really not.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

bearcub said:


> And this was considered to be racist? It's really, really not.


Ok


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

bearcub said:


> And this was considered to be racist? It's really, really not.


And yet had a white person said this about another race it would have been considered racist. I, therefore, beg to differ.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Anyway: to get back to the baby thread, if only for a minute. I just had an interesting thought. I don't especially like the names, but Harrison (especially awful) really got me thinking; but of course the baby is _Harry's son_, of which Harrison is a corrupt version. So do you really think this is why they chose it - I certainly do. I think it is just the sort of wacky thing they would do. Let's face it, she writes on bananas, and as I have mentioned before, they are so frightfully ''new age''. So that solves half the name. And the other half was a tabby cat, so we are told.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> There was a big fuss a while back when she tweeted
> *'*White people love playing divide and rule, We should not play there game. '
> 
> She did later apologise.


Then there was this:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12029702.abbott-denies-attack-on-nurses-was-racist/


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Then there was this:
> https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12029702.abbott-denies-attack-on-nurses-was-racist/


 That's really unfair to the nurses. With such a shortage of nurses you'd think she'd be glad that they wanted to work here.

Back to Archie , the Daily Mail has had lots of photos this week of the new baby with his mum and dad and also one with his grannies and granddad .
This is my favourite


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> That's really unfair to the nurses


I can imagine the outcry if black nurses were told they were not suitable to treat Finnish patients because they were black with Afro hair!!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Some of the difficulties faced by black people.

There is a programme coming up about the Actor David Harewood, My Psychosis and Me .
He had a psychotic episode at the start of his career . he had a breakdown after realising he was defined by his race just for appearing on stage ; both when it was positively pointed out he was the first black man to take a particular role and when members of his own black community criticised his choice of parts .

Sajid javid , gets abuse because of his colour.

Sajid Javid has said he gets abuse "because of my colour" from the "far left" and "far right" of UK politics.

The home secretary told the BBC's Political Thinking podcast he was criticised either for being "too brown" or "not brown enough".

He said he had "sadly got used to" it but had tried to fight it "in every government role I have ever been in".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48226528


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> brown


 Yes, I spotted that and made a mental note: we now have black, white, coloured . . . and brown.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Yes, I spotted that and made a mental note: we now have black, white, coloured . . . and brown.


Not coloured


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> tell us how not to be offensive


So true! The people who are expected to be offended are the ones who don't care, but there are many other people who THINK certain people will be offended that they take offence on their behalf (by proxy if you like). Certain councils refuse to put up a Christmas tree, ''just in case'' certain residents don't celebrate Christmas and take offence. I have Muslim neighbours who have huge Christmas trees because their children like them.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Calvine said:


> So true! The people who are expected to be offended are the ones who don't care, but there are many other people who THINK certain people will be offended that they take offence on their behalf (by proxy if you like). Certain councils refuse to put up a Christmas tree, ''just in case'' certain residents don't celebrate Christmas and take offence. I have Muslim neighbours who have huge Christmas trees because their children like them.


I've worked with Muslims and they all have huge Christmas trees and give gifts.


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## dustydiamond1 (Nov 17, 2018)

noushka05 said:


> Its actually a very serious dig at our hopeless media. Yesterday the media failed to inform us of the IPBES report (perhaps THE most important story ever) in favour of a royal baby.
> 
> I'm not sabotaging anyones thread, people can ignore my post, but I thought it important.


:Stop hacking, start your own thread :Troll


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## dustydiamond1 (Nov 17, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Baby boy for them
> 
> I love that they're being more private about it and Meghan doesn't have to trot out in perfect hair and make-up and heels hours after the baby is born!
> 
> Good for them!


I'm interested and I agree with you. Sending warm wishes to all three.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Calvine said:


> Yes, I spotted that and made a mental note: we now have black, white, coloured . . . and brown.


When I came to UK for a short stay ( conference) I was told by my white host that I am " white but not as white as they ...( meaning English) are ...

My hosts were lovely middle class couple... still... first time in my life I experienced how it must be for " brown " people.
So add fifty shades of white/brown.

I am a blue eyed blonde... whiter shade of pale... but it was after sailing in summer... 

The photos with two grannies are quite endearing.... wish Diana could be there...


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

cheekyscrip said:


> kimthecat said:
> 
> 
> > Back to Archie , the Daily Mail has had lots of photos this week of the new baby with his mum and dad and also one with his grannies and granddad .
> ...


Just cos I'm a pedant
Granny, Great Grandma and Great Grandad


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> The photos with two grannies are quite endearing


Meghan's mother looks really nice and seems to cope well with her new situation.


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## MaggieDemi (Nov 17, 2018)

Calvine said:


> Meghan's mother looks really nice and seems to cope well with her new situation.


I like how she doesn't talk much to the media, unlike the rest of her family.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MaggieDemi said:


> I like how she doesn't talk much to the media, unlike the rest of her family.


They had an article in The Daily Mirror recently and Meghans dads ex wife was dishing the dirt on him saying dont let him near Archie. . 
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meghan-markles-dad-must-never-15026800


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> When I came to UK for a short stay ( conference) I was told by my white host that I am " white but not as white as they ...( meaning English) are ...
> 
> My hosts were lovely middle class couple... still... first time in my life I experienced how it must be for " brown " people.
> So add fifty shades of white/brown.
> ...


Are you sure they weren't just enviously admiring your sun tan?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Elles said:


> Are you sure they weren't just enviously admiring your sun tan?




We were sort of talking about immigration, race , etc... and they came up with that kind of "some animals are whiter than others" ... their white is whiter than white white... not the immigrants' kind of white white...
Well... I was just visiting for a week...
@Elles though I do admit you are actually whiter than me... but I blame UK weather not your ethnicity ....

I do hope the brand new Royal will sport great ginger afro pretty soon!!!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> I do hope the brand new Royal will sport great ginger afro pretty soon!!!


What do you mean?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Rafa said:


> What do you mean?


Hair!!!


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