# Sticky  Elimination diets



## chillminx

Chronic itching and scratching, particularly on the ears, head, face, or neck, (but elsewhere too, such as the lower part of the spine) can be a sign of a food allergy in a cat, especially when other possible causes (such as a flea allergy or mites) have been ruled out by the vet.

A cat who is over-grooming, constantly washing themselves, pulling out fur and creating bald patches, may also have a food allergy.

Food allergies/intolerances can also be a cause of chronic diarrhoea, or frequent episodes of vomiting. Feline chin acne has been linked with food allergies (among other causes).

The scientific way to get reliable results from an allergy or food intolerance test is to put the cat on an elimination diet for 8 to 10 weeks. Most food allergies and food intolerances in cats are to grains, dairy products or specific meat proteins.

Stage 1 of the diet is to feed the cat a grain-free "novel" protein. i.e. either kangaroo, or goat or reindeer, or horse, or venison. (suitable foods are available on line). This is done for 8 - 10 weeks, & nothing else given except water.

Stage 2 of the diet is reintroducing the usual meat proteins one at a time, as a challenge to the immune system, every 3 weeks.e.g. lamb, turkey, pork, chicken, beef, fish. These must be guaranteed single proteins and grain free. (suitable foods are available on line, but not in UK stores) A daily log is kept of symptoms.

Stage 3 is to exclude the identified allergens from the diet permanently and feed a rotated diet of the remaining proteins (and any of the novel proteins).

Combined with the special diet as outlined above, Omega 3 is definitely helpful with cases of allergies. I use Aniforte Omega 3 extract for my cats, as it is extracted from white fish and does not smell as strongly as the stuff extracted from salmon. It comes as a loose powder and is easy to add to food. Only a little is needed, and it should be introduced gradually to avoid a loose stool.

https://www.aniforte.co.uk/collections/cats/products/aniforte-omega-3-extract-100g


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## chillminx

The only way to get reliable results is to use a novel protein. The diet must also be dairy free and grain free (which includes no rice).

I think it is useful to rule out other possible environmental allergens in the home that could affect skin and ears. e.g.

1/ use only non-bio unscented laundry liquid for your own bedding and the cat's bedding. (Tesco sells Surcare, Boots and Waitrose sell their own makes).

2/ do not use fabric softener

3/ use no chemical cleaners on worktops and hard floors. Instead use a weak solution of white vinegar, cooled boiled water and lemon juice or strips of lemon peel soaked in the vinegar.

4/ use no plug-in scent diffusers, scented candles, room spray or hair spray.

The choice of novel protein foods is as follows:-

1/ *Kangaroo *- by Catz Finefood Purrr either from Zooplus UK or from Zoo-bio.co.uk

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/catz_finefood/catz_finefood_cans/525027

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/catz-finefood/14440-purrrr-no-107-kangaroo-canned

2/ G*oat or horse -* from Vet Concept

https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/katzenmenü-ziege

https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/katzenmenünbsp;sana-pferd

3/ *Ropocat, kangaroo, venison or horse *- from Fuettern-mit-spass in Germany

https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/ropocat/

(please note minimum delivery charge to the UK).

4/ *Mjamjam, horse or kangaroo - *from Fuettern-mit-spass

https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/mjamjam/

(please note minimum delivery charge to the UK)

5/ *Mjamjam, horse with pumpkin - *from Zoo-bio UK

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/mjamjam/61387-tasty-horse-with-steamed-pumpkin

Choose just one of these novel protein foods (kangaroo is often well liked by cats ) and feed her that and water for 8 to 10 weeks. Nothing else.

For stage 2 of the diet, you'll need single protein grain free foods as follows:

1/*Single protein Lamb *- Caz Finefood Purrr from Pets Menu UK or Mac's Sensitive Lamb from Zooplus UK

https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72206.htm

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/macs/cans/680988

2/ *Single protein Chicken - *Catz Finefood Purrr - from Pets Menu UK, or Granatapet pure chicken from Zooplus UK or Tundra pure chicken from Alltails UK

https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72186.htm

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/granatapet/wet/507806

https://alltails.co.uk/cat/cat-food/Wet-Cat-Food/Tundra-Cat-Chicken-Pure-6-200g

3/ *Single protein fish (salmon) - *Catz Finefood Purrr - Pets Menu UK

https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72191.htm

4/ *Single Protein Pork - *Catz Finefood Purrr - Pets Menu UK

https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72201.htm

5/ * Animonda Vom Feinsten for neutered cats Pure Turkey trays 
*
https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/animonda/trays/523945

6/ *Single protein beef (veal) - * Granatapet Pure Veal from Zooplus UK

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/granatapet/wet/507806

7/*Single protein foods also by Ropocat and Mjamjam - *from Fuettern-mit-spass

https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/ropocat/

https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/mjamjam/

Each food is reintroduced to challenge the immune system, one at a time every 3 weeks. A daily detailed log of symptoms is kept.

As beef, chicken and fish are statistically the most common feline food allergens I would leave those 3 last to reintroduce.


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## moggie14

Brilliant, thanks as ever @chillminx


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## Daphne_de

Hello! I'm a new member and I found this forum while I was searching useful information about my cats allergies. My one year old cat has been diagnosed with food allergies and is taking medication at the moment. I've be reading about the elimination diet, but I have a question. How do you introduce the new food? My cat usually has soft stools, I don't want to cause any more problems.


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## chillminx

Daphne_de said:


> Hello! I'm a new member and I found this forum while I was searching useful information about my cats allergies. My one year old cat has been diagnosed with food allergies and is taking medication at the moment. I've be reading about the elimination diet, but I have a question. How do you introduce the new food? My cat usually has soft stools, I don't want to cause any more problems.


Hi there. 

It is best to introduce all new foods slowly over a period of several days. This applies to novel protein foods as well as to recipes containing the meat proteins she is used to.

I put a teaspoonful of the new food on a separate saucer alongside the cat's normal dish of food. If the new food is eaten within a couple of hours and there is no adverse reaction later in the litter tray, increase to a tablespoon of the new food the next day, on a separate dish to the normal food.

if the food is eaten and there is no adverse reaction then continue to increase the new food gradually and decrease the old food until she is eating just the new food.

If she refuses to eat the new food at all after several days of offering her fresh samples as above, then give up and try another new food, same method as above.

Is your cat on steroids ? Are they long acting steroids, or a course of oral steroids? Just to mention you will not get reliable results from an elimination diet while the steroids are still effective. This doesn't mean you have to wait to change her diet, you can do that straight away, but you will not know for sure if the new diet is helping her until the effects of the steroids have worn off. (with long acting steroids this could be a month or more from her last injection).

Are you planning to put her on a novel protein diet as the first stage of the elimination diet?


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## Hobbs2004!

Hey @chillminx , I love your food list. That's really immensely helpful.

There are a few more single protein foods I am aware off (including horse), such as from Ropocat (they do kangaroo too) and MjamMjam. Would you like me to pm you those so that you can update your original post?

No worries if not


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## chillminx

Hi @Hobbs2004! Nice to see you! 

Ropocat makes a kangaroo single protein recipe, a venison one, and a horse one, and yes, they should really be listed on this pinned thread as you say.

Really the reason I haven't listed them is that since The Happy Kitty Co closed the only place folk from the UK can buy the novel protein Ropocat flavours is from Fuettern-mit-spass. While I am happy to buy from F-M-S (great store with excellent customer service) the fact is their minimum delivery charges are high in comparison e.g. with Zooplus (with its free delivery over a certain spend.)

The prospect for a worried cat owner with an unwell cat, of buying a batch of unknown cat foods for their cat to try is a bit daunting, and high delivery costs may be off-putting. I don't want to discourage anyone from trying the elimination diet for their cat..

But you're right, the Ropocat single novel proteins should be listed so people are aware there is this option. I will add to my original thread.

Mjamjam is a good food. There is a Horse and Pumpkin single protein recipe available from Zoo-bio UK (where one can also buy the Catz Finefood Purrr range of single protein foods listed earlier in this thread):

Mjamjam Horse and Pumpkin can also be bought from Fuettern-mit-spass, as can the Mjamjam kangaroo recipe:

Thank your for your input, it is appreciated. 

p.s. if I missed anything else please let me know


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## Daphne_de

chillminx said:


> Hi there.
> 
> It is best to introduce all new foods slowly over a period of several days. This applies to novel protein foods as well as to recipes containing the meat proteins she is used to.
> 
> I put a teaspoonful of the new food on a separate saucer alongside the cat's normal dish of food. If the new food is eaten within a couple of hours and there is no adverse reaction later in the litter tray, increase to a tablespoon of the new food the next day, on a separate dish to the normal food.
> 
> if the food is eaten and there is no adverse reaction then continue to increase the new food gradually and decrease the old food until she is eating just the new food.
> 
> If she refuses to eat the new food at all after several days of offering her fresh samples as above, then give up and try another new food, same method as above.
> 
> Is your cat on steroids ? Are they long acting steroids, or a course of oral steroids? Just to mention you will not get reliable results from an elimination diet while the steroids are still effective. This doesn't mean you have to wait to change her diet, you can do that straight away, but you will not know for sure if the new diet is helping her until the effects of the steroids have worn off. (with long acting steroids this could be a month or more from her last injection).
> 
> Are you planning to put her on a novel protein diet as the first stage of the elimination diet?


Thank you so much for you reply, It is really helpful.

He's on prednicare and piriton at the moment. We are planning with the vet to lower the dose to half a tablet any other day and leave piriton long term. I bought some dry food with hydrolyzed protein. From what I read should act like a "novel" protein for the immune system and I'm planning to buy some wet food with horse or kangaroo and see if he likes them. He really loves dry food more than wet. I'm planning to use the hypoallergenic dry food and wet food (kangaroo and horse) for 8/10 weeks and then try with one protein at time. He's having GI problem also, so I'm hoping that despite the medications I would be able to see an improvement in his stools.

I noticed the mjamjam wet food on Amazon.co.uk. They are also available on prime if this could help.


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## chillminx

@Daphne_de - the problem using dry food for an elimination diet is there are so many ingredients in it that could make it unsuitable for the purpose..

Hydrolized protein is usually a protein such as chicken, and chicken is not a novel protein, even in its hydrolized form.The immune system is not fooled by it no matter what the manufacturers like to say. I tried one of my cats on hydrolized protein food some years ago when I was trying to find out the cause of his dermatitis, and his skin reacted badly to it.

You are much better feeding him just the horse or kangaroo wet food for the 8/10 weeks of Stage 1 and leaving all dry food out of his diet. Even for stage 2 when you will be introducing challenges I would leave the dry food until last and introduce it as a challenge on its own. That way you will be able to tell more accurately if the dry food is a problem for him.


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## Daphne_de

This is the composition
Hydrolyzate fish protein, rice starch, fish oil, calcium carbonate, fructoligosaccharides (0.6%), potassium chloride, calcium sulfate dihydrate, mono-dicalcium phosphate, sodium chloride, Marigold extract (source of lutein). Protein sources: hydrolyzate fish protein. Sources of carbohydrates: rice starch.

I chose them just because is fish and I suspect he's allergic to chicken. Anyway I think you are right, I'll try and feed him just with novel protein, at least for 6/8 weeks.


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## chillminx

Daphne_de said:


> This is the composition
> Hydrolyzate fish protein, rice starch, fish oil, calcium carbonate, fructoligosaccharides (0.6%), potassium chloride, calcium sulfate dihydrate, mono-dicalcium phosphate, sodium chloride, Marigold extract (source of lutein). Protein sources: hydrolyzate fish protein. Sources of carbohydrates: rice starch.
> 
> I chose them just because is fish and I suspect he's allergic to chicken. Anyway I think you are right, I'll try and feed him just with novel protein, at least for 6/8 weeks.


Mmm! hydrolized fish protein (fish is a common food allergen for cats), rice starch and fish oil (both common food allergens in sensitive cats). I definitely would avoid this food for him until you have completed the 8 to 10 week diet (it needs to be longer than usual because he is still having an effect from the steroids) using a novel protein.


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## Daphne_de

Ok! Will do! Thank you so much for that!


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## Daphne_de

Hello everyone!
I've been feeding Matisse with novel protein for a week now, I used kangaroo, horse and sheep. I noticed yesterday dandfruff at the base of the tale.. He's black and white so I can noticed more where the fur is black. I have Salmon oil at home that I use for my senior cat to help him with his joints, would it be ok if I start using it for him too? I don't want to ruin his diet, but I want also help him with the dandruff. Could you advice me with something?


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## chillminx

Daphne_de said:


> Hello everyone!
> I've been feeding Matisse with novel protein for a week now, I used kangaroo, horse and sheep. I noticed yesterday dandfruff at the base of the tale.. He's black and white so I can noticed more where the fur is black. I have Salmon oil at home that I use for my senior cat to help him with his joints, would it be ok if I start using it for him too? I don't want to ruin his diet, but I want also help him with the dandruff. Could you advice me with something?


You need to pick one novel protein only. Sheep is not a novel protein, so you should choose either kangaroo or horse. Feeding more than one novel protein at a time will prevent the diet working as it should.

I would not give him salmon oil. An allergy to fish is not uncommon, and this includes an allergy to fish oil.

The diet needs to be plain and simple - one novel protein and nothing else except water for the whole 8 to 10 weeks.

Fur can become dandruffy sometimes in the moulting season (which is now). When the skin is dry (due to low humidity levels in the home if there is CH) brushing and combing the cat daily to remove loose fur is useful. It stimulates production of natural oils and can improve coat condition.


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## Daphne_de

I'm really sorry I thought I could rotate between the proteins, my mistake. I bought kangaroo, horse and one can of sheep wet food but I actually been feeding him just horse and he really likes it. About the dandruff I'll try and brush him more, I tried in the past but he gets really annoyed. Thank you so much for your advice.


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## chillminx

I am glad he likes the horse recipe.  Hopefully he should be willing to tolerate it as his only food for the 8 to 10 weeks for the first part of the diet.

Is he off steroids now? Were they long-acting steroid injections? If so it will take a while for them to leave his system.

He might react better to a a comb than a brush - one of my cats does. I use a fine toothed comb with rounded ends, because it is non-scratching for the skin.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kent-Brush...&s=gateway&sprefix=kent+combs+,aps,129&sr=8-7

Treats are useful for distraction when grooming a reluctant cat, but giving treats is not possible while he is on the elimination diet. Not sure what to suggest other than perhaps giving him a very short comb while he is relaxed. Start off with just one comb through and then gradually increase the number of times you pass the comb through. Always stop as soon as he gets annoyed.


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## Daphne_de

Thank you so much for your reply.

He is on prednicare tablet. We're reducing gradually the dose and now he's taking half a tablet every other day. I'm going away for 5 days and I'm giving him a dexafort injection today for the week as my friend is not able to give him tablet while I'm away. I asked the vet to try and reduce the medication, so that I can see any reaction that he might have. I noticed that he's been scratching his head sometimes and I'm wondering why. His stools are good so I don't think is the food, but I would't know for sure.

The brush that I use is the FURminator Short Hair for Small Cats (sorry I couldn't post the link from amazon)
I brushed him yesterday and today and he does't seem too bothered now. I tried and distract him with a toy and today he was relaxed so was the perfect moment. I was wondering, could it be helpful start to use Aniforte Omega 3 extract or should I wait till I complete the elimination diet?


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## chillminx

Aniforte Omega 3 extract is made from fish (which is a protein), so if you give it to him while he is on the novel protein elimination diet it might affect the results.

However, as he is still on steroids you won't be getting a reliable result from the elimination diet anyway. So for that reason you might as well give him the Aniforte Omega 3 for a couple of weeks. But when he is off the steroids completely then you would have to stop giving him the Aniforte so that nothing interferes with the results of the elimination diet.

But an alternative to consider would be:

1/ Put the elimination diet on hold for the time being.

2/ Feed him the horse protein diet, plus either krill oil or Aniforte Omega 3.

3/ Gradually reduce the steroids and then stop them.

4/ Once he is off steroids, start the elimination diet again, but this time you'd have to use a new novel protein e.g. kangaroo and feed him just that and water for 8 weeks. (Horse would no longer be a novel protein)

Dandruffy skin in cats can be due to dry skin. If he is scratching his head it might be itchy due to dry skin. Omega 3 is a good way to treat dry skin.

Running a humidifier in the home will increase the humidity levels. Or dry wet laundry on radiators. Opening the windows every day can help if the weather is damp.

Furminator brushes take out a lot of fur. I wouldn't use it unless he has a very thick coat and sheds a lot. I would use a Slicker brush on a short haired cat. My shorthaired cats dislike brushes because all brushes scratch to some degree. That's why I use a comb only for my shorthaired cats. The comb is effective.

This is the slicker brush (I gave you the link for the comb in a previous reply)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KW-SMART-S...rt+hair+brush&qid=1554119122&s=gateway&sr=8-5


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## Harvandme

Hi, this is a bit of an update on my lovely three legged house cat Harvey,adopted last Nov from rspca. He gets flead reg as clockwork on the first of the mont and I’ve changed my wash powder.. He visited the vet in jan 2019 due to a sore on his back where he’d knawed himself raw. After discussing things with the vet it was thought he might have an allergy to something within the environment or possible a flea allergy. He was given a depo medrone steroid injection and some antibiotics and the sore on his back healed up nicely . Meanwhile I changed his wet and dry food to something that stated it was hypoallergenic and free from the nasties that might cause allergies like wheat,dairy.soy etc. The injection I was told would lastaround 5 weeks and everything seemed fine. Unfortunately at the end of this period another sore developed on the site of his amputated leg, on the end of his stump. Harvey went back to the vet who said it may be down to an allergy as before or that it could be that Harvey was suffering from neuralgia pain on the amputation site.He had another steroid injection as before and again things healed up nicely. Now 6 wks later Harvey has scabs on his head , around his neck and under his chin and possibly there’s a sore there too.Previously the vet had suggested putting Harvey on a medication called Atopica if we found ourselves in the same situation again. Off to the vet goes Harvey only this time he sees someone different to my reg vet who’s away. I was told Harvey has flea allergy and we should just see how it goes as it can take up to 4 months for everything to clear,cat home etc from fleas or there larvae . She also said she expected to see Harvey in a worse state than he was as his notes said he was / had been pretty bad. To cut a long story short I came away with prednisolone tabs as I insisted on having something as I didn’t want to be returning to the vet in couple of days time with Harvey having taken a turn for the worse. The dosage would decrease gradually over the month to see what the lowest dose would be that Harvey could take to stop itching re accuring and also by the end of this time I could make the decision as to weather or not to try elimination diet or not, something I had brought up with vet ,not her with me. When we got home I found a nasty raw patch on Harvey’s belly so am so glad I had something off the vet to ease his symptoms and raw spots whitch are healing and drying up now that a few days have past. After reading info on pet forum reg elimination diet I think it’s something I have to try for Harvey as the alternatives are to keep giving him steroids or trying atopica. Being concerned over medication and it’s side effects, that’s not something I wish to do unless absolutly necessary and I’ve explored alternatives. Any advise appreciated as I know it’s gonna be hard . It would be also be nice to here from anyone whose actually completed an elimination trial with thei moggie and could let me know what it was like and what the end results were ,good or bad . Again ,many thanks .


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## chillminx

Hello @Harvandme - thank you for the update. I am sorry to hear poor Harvey is still having skin problems and possible allergies.

Yes, I have successfully completed eliminations diets for 3 of my cats in recent years. One cat had chronic feline dermatitis, (now fully controlled with diet). The other 2 have IBD. Several of my friends have also completed the elimination diets for their cats successfully, as have some forum members.

Itching and scratching around the head and neck can often be a sign of food allergies if other diagnoses have been ruled out by the vet.

I am interested in your vet's comment that it could be a flea allergy. Have you always treated Harvey protectively against fleas once a month, with a reliable treatment? Have you ever seen a sign of fleas on him when you comb him? I understand H is an indoor cat, but do you have other pets who go out (e.g. a dog?) who could have brought fleas into the house?

Atopica is a 'heavy duty' medicine with potential side effects that can be unpleasant for the cat. It can be very successful in some cases (I have known of some). But it should be prescribed as a last resort, when all other possibilities have been ruled out first. This includes conducting an elimination diet.

In case I didn't already give you this link to Icat Care's article on feline itching I will include it here :

https://icatcare.org/advice/cat-health/pruritic-itchy-cat---when-it-not-fleas

Please let me know if you have any other questions I can help with.


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## Harvandme

Reg as clockwork every month Harvey gets flead, I use Frontline spot on treatment. 
He does have access to a communal balcony that I share with a neighbour, it’s the equivalent of our garden as I live in first floor flat. My neighbour has 2 indoor cats and we all share the balcony together, although the cats have never met. Unfortunately I do not think she fleas her cats on a reg basis. 
I have never seen a flea on Harvey in the 4 months I’ve had him. When I adopted him from rspca he had been flead and wormed before he was re homed and I’ve kept that up diligently, but I realise fleas can be brought in. I don’t want him to lose access to the balcony because it has really made a difference to him to be able to go outside. Have tried Mynwood jacket for Harvey, and although it’s an excellent product and well made, he doesn’t seem to tolerate it so I stopped trying to use it. 
When I first adopted Harvey he had no sores ,bald patches or scabs on him, although there was an area on his foot that to me looked like there should have been more fur on it as you could see the pinkyness if his skin underneath and he scratched a lot around his head and ears and seemed to groom himself far too much. I thought he might have ear mites but when checked by vet in Jan there was nothing found. 

Thank you again for the link . Will be trying elimination diet with Harvey and de fleaing my home as a precaution as well. 
Just to add, Harvey is a wonderfull boy and has brought so much joy to us since we adopted him last Nov.


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## chillminx

If you bought Frontline from the vet it is probably OK, but a recent TV documentary in the UK found there are fake versions of Frontline flea treatment on the market, which don't work.

If you need any help with the elimination diet please let me know. I will be interested to know how he gets on with it. Note, that you will not get conclusive results until all the steroids are out of his system.


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## faerienuff

Hi I am new to the forum I found the forum while looking for advice on feeding for IBD. I have a 13 year old Bengal and she was diagnosed a few years ago with Carona virus, she suffered semi frequent bouts of diarrhoea and was recommended a prescription diet. She was on Royal Canin precription diet and Almo Nature raw chicken. She managed ok on this apart from the occasional bouts of diarrhoea which we put down to the carona virus being active. But since January she has had more frequent bouts and she started to get really fussy with her foods so she’s now on science plan I/d vet food.

We weren’t happy with her progress and have been carrying out lots of tests at the vets, it’s now looking increasingly likely that she has IBD we have been offered referral and biopsies but I’m not sure that I want to go down this route. She’s currently on b12 and steroids and is going for an ultrasound on Thursday. 

I’ve been reading your posts and am interested in trying the elimination diet as even if we manage to control her symptoms at the momment there’s no point if as soon as she stops the steroids she goes back to being the same.

I read your comments above about the steroids but to start this process would we just pick one of these foods and stick to it for the 10 weeks or would we need a few types in case she doesn’t like one?

Amy advice would be gratefully appreciated.


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## chillminx

Hello @faerienuff and welcome 

Feline Coronavirus (FCoV) is endemic in the domestic cat population and can sometimes cause diarrhoea but it's usually fairly mild, so your cat is unfortunate it has caused her chronic bowel problems over the past few years, bless her.

You would need to stick to the same food for the whole of the first part of the elimination diet, i.e. the novel protein part of the diet. By all means if she refuses to eat the novel protein you choose for her, you can switch to another novel protein, but would need to start the 10 week time table from the start with every change of diet you make.

Canned kangaroo tends to be well liked by most cats on the elimination diet. But reindeer or horse as alternatives are also well liked. Horse can be bought from Zoo-bio UK, made by Mjamjam.

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/mjamjam/61387-tasty-horse-with-steamed-pumpkin

It would be quite expensive (because of the delivery charge) to buy small amounts of several different novel protein foods at once. But you could buy kangaroo and horse from Zoo-bio UK (both made by Mjamjam and that would at least give you an alternative food to give her if she refuses the first one.

It certainly is a good idea to get her off steroids if possible because of the risk of Diabetes type 2. About 12 years ago I adopted a senior cat (aged 14) with IBD, whose owner had died. The cat had received regular steroid treatment for the IBD and had as a result developed Type 2 Diabetes which had to be controlled with insulin injections twice a day.

If your girl is on a long-acting steroid injection you can start the novel protein diet as soon as you like, but will need to add the length of the time the steroid would be effective for to the end of the 10 weeks. This may mean adding say, another 4 weeks to the 10 week period. This might be a better option than waiting 4 weeks until the steroid is out of her system. She can be benefitting from the novel protein diet even though any good results would not be conclusive until after the effect of the steroids have worn off.

Please come back with any questions I can help with.


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## faerienuff

Hi chillminx

Thanks for taking the time to give me this additional information. Harvey was back at the vets today for an ultrasound, she’s only been on the steroids for a week but the wall thickening of her intestine was back into the normal range today. The vet estimates that he thinks they felt double this a week ago so the steroids are doing their job. Looks like we will be continuing the steroids for a few more weeks.

We discussed the single protein diet and we are going to proceed with the kangaroo and buy something else as a backup just in case! I have three other fur babies so I’m sure they’ll eat anything that she won’t!

Thanks for the help it’s not till you read the back of the vet prescription foods that you realise what they have put in it! I try to feed a natural diet to the rest of my cats applaws and Almo Nature but when the vet recommended a prescription food you go with what they have suggested. In fact the vet was surprised when I told him about the food today and said the elimination diet is what they used to do in the old days before all the new vet foods!

Hope you don’t mind if I come back with questions once we get started, meanwhile a picture of Harv enjoying the sun in the car!!


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## chillminx

Great photo of Harvey! 

I am glad you have decided to go ahead with the kangaroo novel protein diet. I hope she likes the food. 

Please do come back with any questions, I'm very happy to help, if I can.


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## lillytheunicorn

@chillminx do you continue giving a probiotic during an elimination diet trial? I usually give Bioglan but I am concerned about continuing as it is from milk.


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## chillminx

lillytheunicorn said:


> @chillminx do you continue giving a probiotic during an elimination diet trial? I usually give Bioglan but I am concerned about continuing as it is from milk.


Hi there, I always stop giving the probiotic during the elimination diet, because, as you say. it's made from milk, so it's another protein, albeit not a meat protein.

When I am doing the re-introductions of the proteins (each one for 3 weeks) after the preliminary 10 weeks on the novel protein diet, I'd add the probiotic as a challenge, after I've done each meat protein.


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## lillytheunicorn

@chillminx thank you. That's what I thought, but didn't want to not give her the probiotic having had antibiotics if I didn't need to. We are still not eating well and are on steroids so not ready to start yet.


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## Daphne_de

Hello,

I'm writing just as an update on Matisse. He has been eating Kangaroo meat for a bit more then 10 weeks. I went on holiday and I didn't want to start with a new protein while I was away. He's still on a low dose of steroids and piriton, half a tablet Once daily. He's doing fine, but still a bit itchy around the face and neck and keeps having acne under the chin. The vet suggested to keep him on low dosage of steroids and piriton to help him with that. I want to start to introduce a new protein. I was thinking lamb as I have a couple of tins for my other cat.


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## chillminx

Daphne_de said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm writing just as an update on Matisse. He has been eating Kangaroo meat for a bit more then 10 weeks. I went on holiday and I didn't want to start with a new protein while I was away. He's still on a low dose of steroids and piriton, half a tablet Once daily. He's doing fine, but still a bit itchy around the face and neck and keeps having acne under the chin. The vet suggested to keep him on low dosage of steroids and piriton to help him with that. I want to start to introduce a new protein. I was thinking lamb as I have a couple of tins for my other cat.


Hi, I am pleased to hear Matisse is doing better, but sorry to hear he's still itchy round the face and neck. Acne is an opportunistic bacterial infection that can take hold when the immune system is not working well.

It if were me I wouldn't start challenging his immune system yet with any of the normal proteins (e,g. lamb) until he is no longer itchy and is off the steroids. if he is fed up with eating kangaroo all the time (which I quite understand he may be) then I would switch to another novel protein, e.g. horse, or reindeer for another 10 weeks. Or venison if he has never eaten it before.

If you start re-introducing normal proteins at this stage, before all the itching has gone it will just confuse the results. (note : when the time comes to reintroduce the usual proteins, make sure they're guaranteed single protein foods from makes such as e.g. Ropocat, Macs, Catz Fine Food (Purrr range) or Mjamjam.


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## Daphne_de

Hi, thank you for your reply!
Yeah makes sense actually. I've just bought some horse tins, just to change a bit. Because as you said, I think he was getting a bit fed up with the kangaroo. Should I give him the aniforte omega 3 supplements that you suggested? Or should I wait?


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## chillminx

Daphne_de said:


> Hi, thank you for your reply!
> Yeah makes sense actually. I've just bought some horse tins, just to change a bit. Because as you said, I think he was getting a bit fed up with the kangaroo. Should I give him the aniforte omega 3 supplements that you suggested? Or should I wait?


Tbh I would wait, as the omega 3 supplement comes from fish, and he may be allergic to fish.

Once you get to the end of the novel protein part of the diet and you start reintroducing the usual proteins one by one, I would add in the omega 3 when you get to the point you are trying him with fish.


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## Daphne_de

Hi, I'm back again for some advice. With the vet, we thought would be a good idea run some allergy test for Matisse. 
The results are pretty confusing as he seems to be allergic/intolerant to pretty much everything. The one that seems worst is beef. (I tried to post the pictures of the results, but keeps giving me error)

I've been feeding him horse for the last 10 weeks. He likes it, but i feel he's getting fed up and would like something different. 
He doesn't seem itchy anymore, I increased the piriton from half a tablet once a day to twice a day and he is still taking the half a tablet of prednicare 5mg every 3 days. The vet advised to decreased the prednicare from every 3 days to every 4 days. 

Now, even though he likes horse, I would like to know if I could start and try a different protein or would be better wait a bit longer?

Thank you, any advice would be really appreciated.


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## chillminx

Hi again @Daphne_de - thank you for the update. 

I am glad to hear Matisse is no longer itchy on the horse-meat diet, but of course the real test is whether he will be OK once he is off the prednicare and has been off it completely for a month or so.

I think you would need 25 posts in order to be able to post photos, or attachments, e.g. with test results.

If the tests were blood tests for food allergies I wouldn't pay too much attention to them. Blood tests for food allergies are known for being unreliable and expensive. They may show antibodies to any food the cat has ever eaten, but it does not mean the cat is allergic to all those foods. The only certain way to identify a food allergy is with an elimination diet.

If Matisse is getting fed up with the plain horsemeat diet it may be better to change him to another novel protein, such as kangaroo (if he will eat it). And if you can source it in France. Ideally it would be best to keep him on the horse meat until you have gradually got him off the prednicare and the antihistamines. But I appreciate he needs to eat food he enjoys.

I wouldn't at this stage start reintroduction of the proteins he has eaten before. That stage should wait until he is off the prednicare and off the antihistamines otherwise the results will be unreliable.

One tablet of piriton (half twice a day) is quite a lot. Does he seem sleepy or lethargic?


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## Daphne_de

Thank you so much for your help. I hopefully will start decreasing the steroid soon. About the piriton he doesn't seem lethargic at all! He wants to play constantly. I actually noticed an improvement on the itchiness.

Regarding the food, what protein can you advise? The only problem I have is that I struggle to order the food from zoobio as the delivery is always late and if I can choose, I usually order from Zooplus or Amazon.

I noticed an organic brand on Zooplus that sells goat meat. Would it be ok for Matisse? He's been eating kangaroo at first and horse after.


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## chillminx

Goat meat would be fine for him, but check there is no other meat protein included. Which make is it?


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## Daphne_de

I was thinking this one: https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...organic_cat_food/hermanns_organic_meat/103105

But I'm not too sure, as it says supplementary wet food. I guess it wouldn't be enough for Matisse as he eats only wet food.


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## chillminx

Daphne_de said:


> I was thinking this one: https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...organic_cat_food/hermanns_organic_meat/103105
> 
> But I'm not too sure, as it says supplementary wet food. I guess it wouldn't be enough for Matisse as he eats only wet food.


Ah yes, the Hermanns, I had forgotten Zooplus Uk is now selling it You could feed it to Matisse but would need to add a suitable supplement. Felini Complete is suitable for adding to cooked meat.

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/supplements_specialty_cat_food/vitamins/155860

And possibly you may need to add fibre too to prevent constipation. Though as the food probably contains offal his bowel may work fine. It says in the list of ingredients that "neck" is included in the recipe, which may mean there's cooked bone in it (bonemeal) . It would be worth contacting Zooplus (or Hermanns themselves) to ask if there is any bonemeal in the food because if there is bonemeal then you must add a supplement with no calcium in it. Felini makes one without calcium.


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## Daphne_de

Thank you so much for your reply, I will look into it. Would you recommend any other food? Are there any English website that sell Reindeer, goat or horse food? Is there any chance that I could rotate him with kangaroo and horse since he likes them? 
Thank you.


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## chillminx

You can rotate horse-meat and kangaroo. If he is OK with both those (no itching) then that may be the answer. Then gradually reduce his dose of prednicare and piriton.

There's no English website I know of that sells pure goat or pure reindeer. You'd need to look at Vet Concept in Germany.

https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/adult/katzenmenü-rentier

https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/adult/katzenmenü-ziege

I wouldn't advise introducing other different novel proteins until he is off the prednicare. Just the horsemeat and kangaroo would be OK until then.


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## Daphne_de

Thank you so much for your advice. I found this on amazon:
Liebesgut Love Biokost Adult Cat - Organic Goose with Coconut and Tomato https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07352L23Q/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_pwfPDbKMX6VK1
It seems to have good ingredients and to have just goose meat. I will give it at least for 8 weeks and will see how it goes.

I am already reducing the steroids from every 3 days to every 4 days.


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## chillminx

Hi @Daphne_de - the Liebesgut cat food sounds good. It is a single protein (goose) which is great but does contain 1% millet which not all cats get on with.However as it is such a small amount of millet I hope Matisse will be OK with it.

What is the dose of steroids is he on at present (every 4 days). Is his skin OK? No itching ? No dry flaky skin (as I recall he had in the past)?


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## Daphne_de

Hi @chillminx , he never had millet before, so I'll wait and see.

The dose for the steroids is: Half a tablet of 5mg prednicare every 4 days. I don't see him scratching anymore. I noticed a bit of dandruff at the base of the tail weeks ago, but the next day was gone! so I would't know to be honest. He seems fine in himself and the stools are perfect. Not soft or smelly like they used to be.


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## chillminx

That's good news about his skin Daphne, and his stools being normal is excellent. Well done.  

Good luck with the Liebesgut goose. I'll look forward to your update.


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## M*72

Hey, 
Was just reading this. We tried an elimination diet with my cat but sadly it wasn’t a food allergy.. she’s allergic to storage mites..! 
Anyway purina do HA which is just soya based and the molecules are super small anyway so doesn’t cause a reaction. It’s also really palatable, she wouldn’t eat the royal canin anallergenic (that’s ok to use too) and to be honest after smelling it I really cannot blame her! 
Just think these diets will be a lot easier to get hold of! As you say, finding a true novel protein these days is pretty hard
Good luck!


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## chillminx

@M*72, hi  I am glad your cat got on with a soya based diet. Soya is well-known for being an allergen in some cats, so personally I would not use it as novel protein on an elimination diet.

An allergy to storage mites (a.k.a dust mites) affects some cats and some humans. In the worse cases the mites can cause asthma. Out of interest, how are you managing your cat's allergy ?


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## M*72

Hi  
The idea of the hydrolysed diets is that the molecules are so small they do not cause a drama
And we are managing her without much luck! Haha apparently itchy cats are a nightmare to fix... 
At the moment she is on pred, cyclosporin and cetirizine (and buster collar) as she recently had a flare up
For a few months she was just on the cyclosporin and did really well 
I also indorex the house frequently and hoover a lot! I keep her dry food in the freezer too... allergies are super annoying... do you have a cat with allergies too?


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## chillminx

Yes, one of my cats has food allergy dermatitis - to beef, chicken and fish. I identified these by means of an elimination diet about 5 yrs ago, using the novel protein kangaroo for 8 weeks.

Since then he's been on a rotated diet of grain free single protein wet foods of kangaroo, lamb, pork, pheasant, rabbit and turkey and has had no dermatitis since. He also has some balanced raw food a few times a week.

If your cat is not responding to cyclosporine (a powerful immunosuppressant drug as you will know) as well as steroids and antihistamine, then I can understand you being worried.

Could I ask how the allergy to dust/storage mites was diagnosed?

Blood tests are quite unreliable for diagnosing food allergies in cats, so if foods were discounted as possible allergens in your cat on the basis of a blood test, I wouldn't rely on it.

Where there is any question of a food allergy I recommend removing all dry food from the diet. Dry food contains so many potential allergens for a sensitive cat [such as grains] and is also (from tests) known to contain funghi and bacteria. Keeping dry food in the fridge will slow the growth of bacteria, but not eliminate it. Fungus proliferates in a damp environment (such as a fridge) but may become less active in the cold.


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## M*72

Hi, yes we did a blood test for the environmental allergens and then a diet trail to see if that helped, which it didn’t 
It’s just not an easy thing to get on top of really! We start to win and then she starts pulling her fur out again! 
its a good job she’s lovely  
Glad you managed to sort out your cats allergies


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## Simmya

Hi, my cat nala has had an allergic reaction to something since she was about 6months old (she’s now 18 months) she’s had steroid injections monthly at the vets I’ve tried piriton (advised but the vet) and although initially the steroid injections make a difference within about 2/3 weeks she’s in a mess from scratching again, her affected area seems to be her head just below her ears her eyes and under her chin, the vet is keen to do blood tests but I’ve heard it’s a drawn out process and not always reliable! I’ve decided to do an elimination diet in the hope she has a food allergy, I’ve purchased kangaroo from zooplus and over the last week been slowly mixing it with her usual wet food... but she’s not taking too well to the change even mixed with her usual food it’s taking a while before she will eat anything (she is a very fussy cat at the best of times!) I’m just hoping it’s the initial change she’s protesting to and not the food as when she does eat she eats it all! Any advice would be welcomed thanks


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## chillminx

Simmya said:


> Hi, my cat nala has had an allergic reaction to something since she was about 6months old (she's now 18 months) she's had steroid injections monthly at the vets I've tried piriton (advised but the vet) and although initially the steroid injections make a difference within about 2/3 weeks she's in a mess from scratching again, her affected area seems to be her head just below her ears her eyes and under her chin, the vet is keen to do blood tests but I've heard it's a drawn out process and not always reliable! I've decided to do an elimination diet in the hope she has a food allergy, I've purchased kangaroo from zooplus and over the last week been slowly mixing it with her usual wet food... but she's not taking too well to the change even mixed with her usual food it's taking a while before she will eat anything (she is a very fussy cat at the best of times!) I'm just hoping it's the initial change she's protesting to and not the food as when she does eat she eats it all! Any advice would be welcomed thanks


If Nala won't eat kangaroo on its own (not mixed with other food) it is best to try her with a different novel protein on its own. e.g. goat, horse, reindeer, or venison. It is best not to mix it with her usual food when introducing it, as it could affect the results.

Itching on the head, face and ears is very typical of a food allergy.

I hope you manage to find a novel protein Nala will eat. x


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## chillminx

M*72 said:


> Hi, yes we did a blood test for the environmental allergens and then a diet trail to see if that helped, which it didn't
> It's just not an easy thing to get on top of really! We start to win and then she starts pulling her fur out again!
> its a good job she's lovely
> Glad you managed to sort out your cats allergies


What is a "diet trail" ? It doesn't really sound like an elimination diet using a novel protein, which is the only sure way to identify a food allergy. Any other method is hit and miss I'm afraid.

I think many cats and many humans would show antibodies to dust mites if they had a blood test. An allergy to dust mites is fairly common.

The symptoms of an allergy to dust mites (storage mites) are similar to the symptoms of hayfever, e.g. sneezing, runny nose, blocked nose, unable to breathe easily. I have not heard of a human or a cat being itchy due to a dust mite allergy as the mites don't affect the skin, they affect the respiratory system.


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## Simmya

chillminx said:


> If Nala won't eat kangaroo on its own (not mixed with other food) it is best to try her with a different novel protein on its own. e.g. goat, horse, reindeer, or venison. It is best not to mix it with her usual food when introducing it, as it could affect the results.
> 
> Itching on the head, face and ears is very typical of a food allergy.
> 
> I hope you manage to find a novel protein Nala will eat. x


Thanks for your reply
We've had success over the last few days she's eating the kangaroo with nothing else so that's a relief, she also seems so much more lively too ... fingers crossed it stays that way! X


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## chillminx

Simmya said:


> Thanks for your reply
> We've had success over the last few days she's eating the kangaroo with nothing else so that's a relief, she also seems so much more lively too ... fingers crossed it stays that way! X


Excellent news!  Be sure to keep her on the kangaroo for at least 8 weeks. Nothing else in her diet except water. Please let us know how she goes on.


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## hamelli

can i ask what one should do after the course of the elimination diet is over? eg say my cat hypothetically was only ok with fish and chicken and the rest she was intolerant. would i continue the single protein food or find one with different nutrients ?


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## chillminx

@hamelli

The diet works as follows:

Stage 1

8 weeks on a novel protein grain free wet food, nothing else except water.

Stage 2

Reintroduce each meat protein one at a time and keep a log of symptoms. All foods should be grain free and guaranteed to be single protein. This is very important, otherwise the results will be worthless and it'd be a waste of time doing the diet.

The foods you would re-introduce would be e.g.
1/ turkey,
2/ lamb,
3/ pork,
4/ rabbit,
5/ beef ,
6/ fish,
7/ chicken

Leave the beef, fish and chicken to the end of the process as they are the most common feline food allergens (along with grains). i.e. it is better to establish first some meats she is more likely to tolerate before you challenge her with the most common allergens. The most likely allergens are going to be foods she has eaten often, day in, day out, for years.

She is unlikely to have an allergy to a meat protein she has hardly ever eaten e.g. pork or rabbit let's say.

It is possible of course that some of the foods may not be to her liking, in which case you would stop the food she dislikes and move on to the next meat protein.

Stage 3

Pammy's permanent diet should consist of a rotation of the foods you found [during Stage 2] that she liked and could tolerate. You can also keep the novel protein food in the diet if she likes it.

Aim for a diet made up of at least 5 meat proteins, 6 if possible. You then feed Pammy one meat protein a day. Then next day you move on to the next food in the rotation. To keep track write a list of the order of the foods and pin it up by the cat food cupboard. The purpose of this is so that she doesn't eat the same meat protein day after day (which she has been doing for years which is why she has developed an allergy to certain foods no doubt)

By rotating the foods in her diet you will minimise the risk of her developing another allergy,

Dry food should not be fed as most makes contain chicken , beef or fish which are high on the list of potential allergens for cats.

Is Pammy a healthy weight? If not then she is better off without the dry food as it is all very high in carbs and therefore very fattening, as well as being bad for her kidneys.


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## Dawnie M

Hi. I am new to the forum and not sure I am posting this right. I adopted a 10 yr old cat in March and had never had a cat. From the day I had her she was sick regularly. I had varying advice as Miracle was very timid about stress etc. Eventually she was diagnosed with pancreatitis and IBS. She has been on sensitive and hypoallergenic food with no real improvement. She was also on steroids which helped when she took them. 2 weeks ago I started introducing her to Kangaroo and for the last week has solely been on this. She has been sick 4 times and I wondered how long it will be before I should see an improvement. Tonight she has been sick and some hours later when I gave her some more you could see her swallowing to try and stop it happening again. 
Having never had a cat I am worrying that I am missing something and contributing to her problem.


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## Dawnie M

I thought I would just clarify Miracle has now been sick 5 times and 3 of those are in the last 3 days (including this morning). Does this mean Kangaroo is not working for her or can it take a while for symptoms resolve.
I have no history for her but the vet did say she probably had this before I had her in March so no knowing how long she has been suffering for.
Some guidance as to the way forward would be appreciated.


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## chillminx

Hello @Dawnie M and welcome 

I am sorry to hear about Miracle's vomiting. Does your vet think it is diet-related or is it due to the pancreatitis or to IBD?

If the kangaroo were suiting her digestion you should see an improvement straight away. i.e. the vomiting would stop.

When you say you're feeding her kangaroo do you mean you're feeding raw chunks of kangaroo or minced kangaroo? Or are you home cooking it? Or is it kangaroo cat food (e.g. the one made by Catz Finefood)?

She should not be having anything else in her diet except plain water. No dry food. No cat milk. No treats. No table scraps.

How many times are you feeding Miracle a day? Do you leave a meal for her overnight in a timed autofeeder?

Does she vomit mostly on an empty tummy?

Or when she has just eaten food? (so the food is undigested).

Or when the food is partially digested?

Does she ever vomit colourless (or nearly colourless) liquid?

Has the vet prescribed the antacid Famotidine for her (5 mg a day)?

What are her stools like ? Are they firm and formed? Or does she have loose stools or diarrhoea?

What types of foods (and makes) have you tried her with in the past, including the sensitive or hypoallergenic foods?

What treatment is she having from the vet at present?


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## Dawnie M

My vet did not really specify whether its diet related but suggested putting her royal canin or Hills sensitive but this made no difference so he then suggested steroids which helped but the vomiting returned when she was on alternate days. He suggested keeping her on these but I was not keen and found your elimination diet which he was happy for me to try. Priorto this she was on Felix.

She is on the kangaroo food you recommended from zooplus. She has only been having this and water since last Monday.

Feeding has been a challenge since I had her so feed her small amounts regularly and leave some in a timed feeder during day and over night. Im currently feeding her about 150g a day, bearing in mind she doesnt go outside very often and can have periods when she is quite lethargic, though i am not sure if this is normal cat behaviour as she is my first cat. She has put on about 1.5 kg since I had her (3.25 and now 4.8).

Vomiting seems to vary but most time a short time after eating. Her stools have been fine except on one weekend when I was trying everything to get her to take some bitter tasting antibiotics.

I am finding it difficult as really dont know what 'normal' is for cat as she has not been since I had her. I really would rather and try and get her sorted without drugs but at the same time really dont want her suffering. The rescue centre think she was kep in a cage as her back legs have not developed and she cannot jump very well. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Forester

Unfortunately kangaroo, although usually a novel protein, does not suit many cats. My boy who has IBD, does worse with kangaroo than he does with any other food ( with the exception of Hills z/d ). Have you tried your cat with pork? Pork is the only protein tolerated by my boy and I know of other cats who also only tolerate pork.


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## chillminx

My sympathy to you @Dawnie M, the situation with Miracle sounds difficult and I understand it must be worrying. Food allergies can be hard to identify sometimes.

It is often the case that a specific meat protein (or more than one) is the cause of a food allergy, but it is not the cause in every case, as I have found recently with one of my own cats.

So, as Miracle is not getting on well with the kangaroo from Catz FineFood, it could be that it is the offal in the recipe, or a filler being used, or even a specific flavouring.

My advice would be if you want to continue with the kangaroo buy some chunks of plain kangaroo meat and cook it for her by casseroling it in the oven with enough water to cover the meat, and putting a lid on. Kangaroo needs a lot of cooking and I cook mine at the top of the oven, gas mark 4 for about 1.5 hours. Check the water level stays over the meat and if necessary top up with boiling water from
the kettle.

You can buy chunks of kangaroo meat from the pet food supplier Kiezebrink.co.uk. It has no bone in it so is safe to cook. (Do not cook the mince as it contains bone. ) However I see they are out of stock at present. There are other suppliers of raw kangaroo e.g. OsLinc

https://www.oslinc.co.uk/Product-Details.aspx?Product=2039&Category=5

The price is £3 for 300 grams which works out cheaper than Kiezebrink's price. (it's on offer at present). Serve the cooked kangaroo with plenty of the cooking juices (stock/gravy)

But meanwhile I would try giving Miracle some plain home cooked meat, e.g. turkey thigh meat (which you can buy from the supermarket and casserole in the oven for one hour - same method as above).

She would not be able to remain on the plain meat diet for more than a couple of weeks without you adding a supplement to it to make it a balanced meal. One of the best supplements to add to cooked meat is _FELINI COMPLETE_ sold by Zooplus.

If you already tried plain home cooked turkey and she did not improve at all on it, I would try her with poached white fish and plenty of the cooking juices. Tesco sells bags of frozen white fish (pollock) which cats like, and it is not expensive. White fish can be very soothing to the tummy and the bowel.

I had a lot of problems with my two boys with IBD, finding a food they could tolerate. Home cooked kangaroo meat was fine for them, but I did not want to feed just that. I found Animonda Vom Feinsten for Neutered cats, Pure Turkey flavour, suited them very well. It may be something to try for Miracle at some stage. But for now I would keep to home cooked meat or fish, so you know she is not getting anything else in her diet than could be triggering the vomiting.

I would feed her about 6 small meals a day plus the meals you are putting in the autofeeder at night. I found it was the only way with my IBD cats, to stop them vomiting. Also ensure she has a quiet place to eat her meals and is left undisturbed while eating. Make sure she is facing the room when she eats, has her back to the wall. Put her food on a flat plate (like a large tea plate) and I found it helped to give one of my boys a raised feeder. For the moment you could put her flat plate on top of several books.

150 grams a day does not sound a lot, unless she is a small cat. Do you think she is hungry for more?

I would ask your vet for Famotidine for her. It is an antacid; 5 mg a day is the dose for a cat. It does help to calm the stomach when there is vomiting. Also you could ask for Cerenia tablets to have at home for her, to be given after she has vomited to calm her tummy. You should not give them all the time though.

Which antibiotic were you giving her and what was it for? There may be an alternative which is easier to give.

I understand you want to sort out the problem with diet - I am in favour of that approach too. But when things are as bad as they are with Miracle you may need to use drugs for a while to get her stabilised. It can be a slow and gradual process sorting out a diet for a cat who has IBD related food allergies. It took me about a year to get to the point with both my boys where the vomits were only occasional instead of every few days.

Has Miracle been tested btw for Diabetes Mellitus, CKD, and Thyroid disease, any of which if undiagnosed could cause vomiting?

EDIT: I agree with @Forester - plain pork meat may be one to try instead of plain turkey thigh.


----------



## Dawnie M

Thank you both for your advice. You have given me a lot to think about. I will keep you informed on how I get on.


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## chillminx

Yes, do please come back and let us know.


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## Cheryl.nic

My sphynx boy has Papular eosinophilic/mastocytic dermatitis allergy testvwere posituve to dust nite and basically all the proteins currently on steroid tablets and a mix of fuciden,hydrocortisone and canisten cream as skin was horrendous bought some kangaroo tins and he loves it pop normal if his skin flares does this mean it’s no good ? How long do you keep them on it to see ?have added pics of what he was like a week ago looking much clearer now x


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## chillminx

Hello @Cheryl.nic and welcome  I am sorry to hear about your poor cat.

Blood tests for food allergies are not accurate. Just because there are antibodies to all meats in the blood does not necessarily mean the cat is allergic to all of the meat proteins. It just means the cat has eaten them all at some time in the past. He may be allergic to some of them however. But the chances are that he may be Ok with a couple.

The only scientific way to test for food allergens is with an elimination diet. (The same thing applies to food allergies in humans).

With cats this means feeding a novel meat protein (such as kangaroo) for 10 weeks (to calm the immune response) and then challenging the immune response by re-introducing each meat protein as a single protein. This is done every 3 weeks and a daily Log is kept of symptoms.

Stage 1 is 10 weeks of the novel protein diet. (e.g. kangaroo)

Stage 2 is the reintroduction of other meat proteins as a challenge to the immune system. I recommend starting with the proteins that are less likely to be an allergen. This kind of order:

1/ Pork
2/ Turkey
3/ Lamb
4/ Duck
5/ Rabbit
6/ Chicken
7/ Beef
8/ Fish

Food allergies develop in some cats as a result of long exposure to a meat protein. This is why the most common food allergens in cats are chicken, beef and fish, because they are used in many cat foods. The cat has often been exposed to these proteins, day after day, from the time they were weaned.

If you feed your boy kangaroo long term [or permanently], with no other meats, there is a risk he will eventually become allergic to the kangaroo. Which is something you want to avoid at all costs! Therefore it is better to feed the kangaroo for the 10 week period, and ensure he has nothing else in his diet during that period except water.

If his dermatitis flares up again before the 10 week period is up, then you would stop feeding the kangaroo immediately. There would be no point in continuing with kangaroo and you would need to find another novel protein, e.g. goat, reindeer, or horse meat. (But you might possibly be able to go back to the kangaroo at some future stage, providing you stop feeding it straight away if he has a flare on it)

Bear in mind your cat's immune system can also be affected by environmental causes. It is important to ensure anything that might affect him or his skin is removed from the house. e.g.

1/ Use non-biological unscented laundry liquids or washing powders for your bedding and his bedding. e.g. Surcare, Ecover, or Boots Sensitive (I prefer the latter as it has almost no smell to it)

2/ No house plants except for cat nip or cat grass. No cut flowers.

3/ No scent diffusers, no plug-ins, no scented candles, etc

4/ No hairspray, no room spray

5/ Preferably give him natural material such as wool or cotton for his bed. Launder it every few days.

6/ Use no chemical cleaners for the floor or work tops. Make a cleaning solution of your own using water and lemon juice or white vinegar. If you use chemical cleaners in the bath or shower, rinse very thoroughly afterwards. If you use bleach in the toilet keep the toilet lid shut always.

The goal with the elimination diet is to get the cat onto a varied diet so he does not eat the same meat protein day after day (after the diet has ended I mean). So, for example, my cat whose dermatitis has been controlled for 7 years eats 5 different meat proteins, a different one every day. He is allergic to beef, chicken and fish, so he never has those meats in his diet. And never will.

The reason for such a varied diet is so the cat does not develop a new allergy. Because this is a risk in a sensitive cat like yours.

Please let me know how things go. If you need any help or support with the diet, I'm happy to advise.


----------



## Cheryl.nic

chillminx said:


> Hello @Cheryl.nic and welcome  I am sorry to hear about your poor cat.
> 
> Blood tests for food allergies are not accurate. Just because there are antibodies to all meats in the blood does not necessarily mean the cat is allergic to all of the meat proteins. It just means the cat has eaten them all at some time in the past. He may be allergic to some of them however. But the chances are that he may be Ok with a couple.
> 
> The only scientific way to test for food allergens is with an elimination diet. (The same thing applies to food allergies in humans).
> 
> With cats this means feeding a novel meat protein (such as kangaroo) for 10 weeks (to calm the immune response) and then challenging the immune response by re-introducing each meat protein as a single protein. This is done every 3 weeks and a daily Log is kept of symptoms.
> 
> Stage 1 is 10 weeks of the novel protein diet. (e.g. kangaroo)
> 
> Stage 2 is the reintroduction of other meat proteins as a challenge to the immune system. I recommend starting with the proteins that are less likely to be an allergen. This kind of order:
> 
> 1/ Pork
> 2/ Turkey
> 3/ Lamb
> 4/ Duck
> 5/ Rabbit
> 6/ Chicken
> 7/ Beef
> 8/ Fish
> 
> Food allergies develop in some cats as a result of long exposure to a meat protein. This is why the most common food allergens in cats are chicken, beef and fish, because they are used in many cat foods. The cat has often been exposed to these proteins, day after day, from the time they were weaned.
> 
> If you feed your boy kangaroo long term [or permanently], with no other meats, there is a risk he will eventually become allergic to the kangaroo. Which is something you want to avoid at all costs! Therefore it is better to feed the kangaroo for the 10 week period, and ensure he has nothing else in his diet during that period except water.
> 
> If his dermatitis flares up again before the 10 week period is up, then you would stop feeding the kangaroo immediately. There would be no point in continuing with kangaroo and you would need to find another novel protein, e.g. goat, reindeer, or horse meat. (But you might possibly be able to go back to the kangaroo at some future stage, providing you stop feeding it straight away if he has a flare on it)
> 
> Bear in mind your cat's immune system can also be affected by environmental causes. It is important to ensure anything that might affect him or his skin is removed from the house. e.g.
> 
> 1/ Use non-biological unscented laundry liquids or washing powders for your bedding and his bedding. e.g. Surcare, Ecover, or Boots Sensitive (I prefer the latter as it has almost no smell to it)
> 
> 2/ No house plants except for cat nip or cat grass. No cut flowers.
> 
> 3/ No scent diffusers, no plug-ins, no scented candles, etc
> 
> 4/ No hairspray, no room spray
> 
> 5/ Preferably give him natural material such as wool or cotton for his bed. Launder it every few days.
> 
> 6/ Use no chemical cleaners for the floor or work tops. Make a cleaning solution of your own using water and lemon juice or white vinegar. If you use chemical cleaners in the bath or shower, rinse very thoroughly afterwards. If you use bleach in the toilet keep the toilet lid shut always.
> 
> The goal with the elimination diet is to get the cat onto a varied diet so he does not eat the same meat protein day after day (after the diet has ended I mean). So, for example, my cat whose dermatitis has been controlled for 7 years eats 5 different meat proteins, a different one every day. He is allergic to beef, chicken and fish, so he never has those meats in his diet. And never will.
> 
> The reason for such a varied diet is so the cat does not develop a new allergy. Because this is a risk in a sensitive cat like yours.
> 
> Please let me know how things go. If you need any help or support with the diet


----------



## Cheryl.nic

Hi and thanks my vet recommended Purina hd and wet was giving him hills ad but that definitely made him worse and l think the kangaroo as brought the back of his legs up a bit , it's so hard


----------



## chillminx

Cheryl.nic said:


> [..] l think the kangaroo as brought the back of his legs up a bit , it's so hard


Sorry I am not sure what you mean in the sentence above...do you mean the kangaroo is upsetting his stomach? Or ?


----------



## Cheryl.nic

chillminx said:


> Sorry I am not sure what you mean in the sentence above...do you mean the kangaroo is upsetting his stomach? Or ?


Brought a rash up on his back legs and a bit of rash on tummy .


----------



## chillminx

Cheryl.nic said:


> Brought a rash up on his back legs and a bit of rash on tummy .


Are you sure the rash is due to the kangaroo? How long has he been on the tinned kangaroo? If it's only a few weeks I wouldn't have expected a reaction like that, especially as his poos are normal now. Have you ruled out an environmental cause such as laundry powder/liquid?

If you're certain the rash *is* due to the kangaroo then I would take him off it. Then you would need to find another novel protein he can tolerate. Horse might be one to try. Mjamjam make one or Hermanns - you can buy both these in cans from Zoo-bio.uk.

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/mjamjam/9...elightful-pure-horse-grain-free-food-for-cats

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/mjamjam/61387-tasty-horse-with-steamed-pumpkin

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/herrmanns/13741-creative-mix-horse-pure-meat-canned

Hermanns also have goat but only in the 400 gram size at present:

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/herrmanns/90682-creative-mix-goat-pure-meat

And they do pure venison - but only choose venison if you have never tried your cat with venison.

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/herrmanns/90685-creative-mix-pure-meat-venison


----------



## Cheryl.nic

Hi l always use non bio in washing lm thinking the kangaroo as only on it 2 days and 2nd day his legs had come up , poo’s are normal most of the time with him it’s just his skin that we have problems with


----------



## chillminx

I think it might be something else in the recipe, not the kangaroo meat as such. You could try feeding him home cooked kangaroo for a couple of weeks and see if his skin gets better. I casserole some chunks of kangaroo meat once a week in the oven for 2 of my cats who have food allergies.

But if you cook it at home you'd need to add a Premix to it (a Completer) if you intend to feed it every day for more than a week or so. Fellini Complete can be bought from Zooplus and can be added to home cooked meat.

https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/product/640-paleo-ridge-kangaroo-chunks-500gm


----------



## msnicollen

Hello, I am a new member and a new mommy of two beautiful british shorthair kittens, male and a female. We took them a month ago but since then we have had problems. A couple of days after taking them I noticed that the female kitten(6 months old) had some red small scabs on her skin( before the beginning of the tail, a little bit on the back and neck) and she was itchy around the ear. I was concerned because I didn't really change their diet. She was fed by the breeder with boiled chicken and Royal Canine Queen selection dry food. For this one week I was giving them a couple of times boiled chicken but the male kitten's stomach was upset from it( soft stools) so I decided to give them good quality wet food for a combination diet. They had dry food available at all times and wet foot at dinner ( mainly Cosma and Animonda). Maybe it was my mistake with Cosma because i ordered mixed cans so I can see what they prefer, for example Tuna and Crab, Chicken and Tuna, Chicken fillet with liver(maybe that confused them a little?) but I doubt that for a week it can cause allergy. Anyways at first the vet decided it was flea allergy and we did treat them with Broadline just in case. She was treated with some kind of injections to stop the itching for a week( the injections weren't something serious like cortico steroids but maybe anti allergic, I am not sure). We finished the course of injections and she cleared up, two days later without injections she flared up again with scabs( no vomiting, no diarrhea, no bold patches) just little small red scabs and itchiness. I could even pull off the scabs and she was purring, no wound under the scab, nothing. We started the injections again but for a longer time and the vet said it is not a flea allergy, it is definitely a food allergy, I was confused a little but agreed. Stopped all canned food and the royal canine and started giving them Purina Pro Plan Hypoallergenic dry food and Animonda Integrity wet food for both of them recommended by the vet. It has been two weeks and a half, last injection was this Monday. I also washed her with a special vet shampoo for dermatitis a week ago. She is fine now, no scabs at all, skin is soft and nice, she is still itchy once a day, but nothing to do with what it was before. Now to the problem, the male one has diarrhea from the Purina Hypoallergenic food, soft pudding like stools, very smelly and yellow color.The vet gave us Dia-Tab Diarrhoea Tablets for him, I gave the cat two tablets in the space of four days, it helped a little bit but not much....We thought he couldn't get used to the new food although I was changing the dry food slowly, the process took a week in a half and once there was no trace of the old food, the soft stools happened. I am definitely sure that this food is no good for his stomach. It has been two weeks now on this food and we clean his bottom every morning after he poops pudding like stools. Three days ago his breeder recommended giving him Stomorgyl 2, I gave him three tablets but this morning the result was the same. So I don't know what to do anymore.... I have two baby cats that right now are growing and need the best food and vitamins to grow healthy and big..... One is suspected of food allergy( although I am doubting that very much, it looked like flea allergy) and now the other one suffers from diarrhea because of this stupid hypoallergenic food.... Now I know that food which contains grain is no good for them... but I didn't want to change their food right at the beginning of coming in a new house, didn't want to cause stress. I am against RC and Purina....trying to compensate with good quality wet food. I am very concerned and my hands are tied.....please give me an advice, I don't want to destroy my healthy kittens because of vets and breeders who give horrible advice and might be wrong. Does my kitten have food allergy for real? Do we really need to give them this food, which lacks nutrition and actual meat protein, literally it only contains soy and rice..... Thank you very much.


----------



## chillminx

Hello @msnicollen and welcome 

I am very happy to help with advice but am having difficulty reading your post, and would be grateful if you could put it in paragraphs by using the Edit facility.

Thank you very much


----------



## msnicollen

msnicollen said:


> chillminx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello @msnicollen and welcome
> 
> I am very happy to help with advice but am having difficulty reading your post, and would be grateful if you could put it in paragraphs by using the Edit facility.
> 
> Thank you very much
> 
> 
> 
> I am very sorry, I am new to this forum. I will edit it of course.
> Hello, I am a new member and a new mommy of two beautiful british shorthair kittens, male and a female. We took them a month ago but since then we have had problems.
> A couple of days after taking them I noticed that the female kitten(6 months old) had some red small scabs on her skin( before the beginning of the tail, a little bit on the back and neck) and she was itchy around the ear.
> I was concerned because I didn't really change her diet. She was fed by the breeder with boiled chicken and Royal Canine Queen selection dry food.
> For this one week I was giving them a couple of times boiled chicken but the male kitten's stomach was upset from it( soft stools) so I decided to give them good quality wet food for a combination diet. They had dry food available at all times and wet foot at dinner ( mainly Cosma and Animonda). Maybe it was my mistake with Cosma because i ordered mixed cans so I can see what they prefer, for example Tuna and Crab, Chicken and Tuna, Chicken fillet with liver(maybe that confused them a little?) but I doubt that for a week it can cause allergy.
> Anyways at first the vet decided it was flea allergy and we did treat them with Broadline just in case. She was treated with some kind of injections to stop the itching for a week( the injections weren't something serious like cortico steroids but maybe anti allergic, I am not sure). We finished the course of injections and she cleared up, two days later without injections she flared up again with scabs( no vomiting, no diarrhea, no bold patches) just little small red scabs and itchiness. I could even pull off the scabs and she was purring, no wound under the scab, nothing. We started the injections again but for a longer time and the vet said it is not a flea allergy, it is definitely a food allergy, I was confused a little but agreed. Stopped all canned food and the royal canine and started giving them Purina Pro Plan Hypoallergenic dry food and Animonda Integrity wet food recommended by the vet.
> It has been two weeks and a half, last injection was this Monday. I also washed her with a special vet shampoo for dermatitis a week ago. She is fine now, no scabs at all, skin is soft and nice, she is still itchy once a day, but nothing to do with what it was before.
> Now to the problem, the male one has diarrhea from the Purina Hypoallergenic food, soft pudding like stools, very smelly and yellow color.The vet gave us Dia-Tab Diarrhoea Tablets for him, I gave the cat two tablets in the space of four days, it helped a little bit but not much....We thought he couldn't get used to the new food. I am definitely sure that this food is no good for his stomach. It has been two weeks now on this food and we clean his bottom every morning after he poops pudding like stools.
> Three days ago his breeder recommended giving him Stomorgyl 2, I gave him three tablets but this morning the result was the same. So I don't know what to do anymore.... I have two baby cats that right now are growing and need the best food and vitamins to grow healthy and big..... One is suspected of food allergy( although I am doubting that very much, it looked like flea allergy) and now the other one suffers from diarrhea because of this stupid hypoallergenic food....
> 
> Now I know that food which contains grain is no good for them... but I didn't want to change their food right at the beginning of coming in a new house, didn't want to cause stress. I am against RC and Purina....trying to compensate with good quality wet food. I am very concerned and my hands are tied.....please give me an advice, I don't want to destroy my healthy kittens because of vets and breeders who give horrible advice and might be wrong. Does my kitten have food allergy for real? Do we really need to give them this food, which lacks nutrition and actual meat protein, literally it only contains soy and rice.....
> Thank you very much.
Click to expand...


----------



## chillminx

Hell again @msnicollen 

I would take the male kitten off the Purina dry food straight away as it evidently is not suiting his tummy. I would keep him off all dry food for now.

Give the male home cooked chicken drumsticks for a few days. Serve the chicken chopped into small pieces, with plenty of the cooking water (stock) with them to provide fluids. Gove nothing else except water to drink. Feed the male kitten 4 or 5 meals a day.

He might not pass any stools for several days. This is normal. Once he passes a formed stool, you need to start slowly transferring him on to wet cat food. If you are in the UK then foods such as Natures Menu, Country Hunter, Wainwrights tins, HiLife The Chicken One, Thrive Complete. Choose one of these foods to transfer him to and do not add another food for at least 3 weeks. As you gradually increase the amount of cat food, decrease the amount of the cooked chicken.

If you are happy to buy cat food online as many of us forum members do, then Zooplus UK is a good place to go. There is a pinned thread on Heath & Nutrition giving a list of all the good wet foods from Zooplus with the carb content. The foods are all grain free.

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...-just-the-good-stuff-work-in-progress.440844/

From Zooplus I can recommend foods such as tins of Granatapet, Macs Sensitive Mono-protein, Catz Finefood, foil trays of Animonda Vom Feinsten for neutered cats, and Miamor trays of Mild Meals or Sensitive meals.

Have you tried giving the male the Animonda Integra wet food you are giving the female kitten? if so what was the result?

With regard to the female kitten - itchiness around the head, and especially the ears, and also along the lower part of the spine can be due to a food allergy. As she is still itchy at times, it could be she is intolerant of the rice in the Integra food, or one of the meat proteins (the lamb or the turkey). Have you tried feeding her say just the turkey flavour for a couple of weeks to see if the itching stops? Or the lamb only?

As it does appear she has food allergies it will be better to widen her diet to about 4 or 5 wet foods, so she is fed a variety of different meat proteins so as to avoid the risk of her developing a new food allergy.


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## msnicollen

Hello again and thank you for your time and advice.
I removed the hypoallergenic food for both of them, because there is a lot of soy in it and I don’t think it is good for young kittens and their development.
Good news is baby boy kitten doesn’t pass soft stools anymore and its colour is back to normal(dark brown) so I am not concerned for him anymore. He is playful and full of energy! Very happy about that! Now I would try to give him boiled chicken but I don’t really want to because last time he had very bad poop from boiled chicken and now he seems stabilised.
I give them both only the turkey flavour of the Animonda Integra and they like it a lot.
The female is still itchy, not a lot but I can see her from time to time. I changed all my washing liquids, softeners and cleaning products to anti allergic. She has no scabs, her skin is soft and looking good. There is no missing fur, diarrhea or vomiting. She if full of energy and in a good mood.
Now I was thinking she might be allergic to grains. That is the first time in her life she eats turkey and she has been itchy way before that, back when she had the Royal Canin food. And the hypoallergenic food full of soy didn’t help much with the itch.
I was thinking about the litter too, that might be the reason. I am using Worlds Cast Best the big purple pellets. Maybe I should change her litter to hypoallergenic. Any suggestions?
If she is allergic to grains, would she be allergic to the rice in the Animonda as well?
I am looking to buy wet food with only one protein. Catz Finefood Purr seems like a good start, but quite expensive for a household with two cats. Please suggest any other brands, which have exotic one meat protein?
Thank you very much!


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## chillminx

@msnicollen - good news that the male kitten now has normal stools.  In which case he doesn't need the bland (chicken) diet. Also, if the boiled chicken gave him an upset bowel when you gave it him before, then it is best to keep him off chicken altogether. It evidently does not suit him.

Rice is a low allergen, but I wouldn't feed it to either of my cats who have food allergies. So your female may be better on a food without any rice (or other grains).

I use the Catz Finefood Purr kangaroo and the pork for my cats.

Other grain free Zooplus foods which are also single protein as follows:

Feringa Meat Menu, mono protein

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/feringa_wet_cat_food/meat_menu/374495

(400 gram tins are good value) (I'd avoid the chicken recipe as the boy has a problem with chicken)

Animonda Vom Feinsten for Neutered cats Pure Turkey flavour :

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/animonda/trays/523945

Macs Mono Protein Sensitive:

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/macs/cans/680988

If you want more variety of single proteins Zoo-bio.co.uk sells Mjamjam Duck, Mjamjam Horse and Mjamjam Lamb. All grain free mono proteins. And all well liked by my cats.

I would be surprised if the cat litter is making her itch unless she is eating it (some cats do eat cat litter!). But perhaps it is the scent of it that affects her. I use an unscented cat litter, especially for a cat who has allergies.

I buy Worlds Best Original (granular litter) for my cats and have not had a problem with it. Cats need to smell their own scent in the tray, which is why scented products are not good.

A "hypoallergenic" cat litter is one that has nothing added e.g. plain cheap and cheerful wood pellets from Pets at Home. But it is a non-clumping litter, which means the trays need emptying out completely several times a day and refilling with new litter to keep the trays from smelling bad. Unless one uses the correct Sieve tray with it. (One of the trays I provide for my cats is a Brit-pet sieve tray, and I use plain wood pellets in that) .

As Worlds Best is made from corn, it may be worth switching to a litter that is made of a different material e.g. wood granules. I recommend Cats Best Oko Plus.

https://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/cat/cat/cat-litter/oko-wood-litter-30l

It tracks a bit more than the Worlds Best, but if you put litter mats in front of all of their trays, the mats catch most of the bits.

When you swap the litter, swap it in only one tray at a time. Do not swap the litter in the other two trays until they are happy using the new litter in the first tray. It may take a few days.


----------



## msnicollen

Thank you very much again! I did look quite a lot at Feringa Meat Menu, it seems like good value and ingredients. 
Can you recommend the best flavour? I don’t know about the fish and beef. Maybe lamb or rabbit?
I will definitely change the litter.
Thank you.


----------



## chillminx

msnicollen said:


> Thank you very much again! I did look quite a lot at Feringa Meat Menu, it seems like good value and ingredients.
> Can you recommend the best flavour? I don't know about the fish and beef. Maybe lamb or rabbit?
> I will definitely change the litter.
> Thank you.


One of my cats eats the rabbit and the lamb. He likes both. I would start with the lamb (lamb is generally well tolerated) and if they are fine with that, then add the rabbit flavour after a few weeks. They may also be OK with the beef.


----------



## msnicollen

One more thing I wanted to ask. I know dry food is not the best thing to give to cats but still I believe that there are different benefits from each type of food. 
What would you say for example about this food, would it be appropriate to try it? 
There is one more flavour with herring. I am wondering which one is better. Fish or quail. 









Somehow I could not post the link so I managed to send a photo of the food if it is okay for you to look it up. It is free of grains, gluten and it has one protein. 
Please give me your opinion. Thank you again.


----------



## chillminx

@msnicollen - I looked it up on the Farmina website.

The ingredients of the N & D functional skin and coat quail recipe are as follows:

_quail, dehydrated quail, pea starch, herring oil, quinoa seed, linseed, dried coconut, turmeric, inulin, fructooligosaccharide, yeast extract, psyllium seed husk, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, calcium sulfate dihydrate, potassium chloride, salt, brewers dried yeast, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, ascorbic acid, niacin, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, choline chloride, beta-carotene, zinc methionine hydroxy analogue chelate, manganese methionine hydroxy analogue chelate, ferrous glycine, copper methionine hydroxy analogue chelate, DL-Methionine, taurine, aloe vera gel concentrate, green tea extract, rosemary extract, mixed tocopherols (a preservative).
_
It has an awful lot of ingredients which is never a good sign when one is feeding a cat who has allergies. You want to feed foods that are as simple as possile;

It contains only one meat protein, as you say, but it also contains vegetable protein (pea starch), which cats cannot digest well because they lack the right enzyme. Aloe Vera does not agree with all cats, and there is plenty of evidence that rosemary extract is an allergen for some cats. (One of my cats is actually allergic to rosemary extract).

The food is very high in carbs at 35.6 % and that would in itself be enough to put me off feeding it.

There is no protection for the cat's teeth in feeding dry food btw. The claim to protect teeth and gums from plaque is merely a marketing ploy. If you want to prevent your cats getting plaque on their teeth you are better brushing their teeth a couple of times a week with a pet toothbrush.
_

_
.


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## msnicollen

Great! Thank you very much for all your help! I wish you well and I will keep you updated on the cats health.


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## Dawnie M

Hi. I posted before Christmas about my rescue cat who has pancreatitis and as a consequence IBS. I tried the kangaroo but she did not do well and I have been back to vets having tried her on JWB grain free hypoallergenic which she reacted to the same as al others. The conclusion from the vet was she needed hydrolysed food just dry. She will occasionally eat hills zd but is not keen and I am currently trying her some Specific food allergy management food for cats with pancreatitis which she is not keen on but will eat a little but is being sick almost daily though some times after biscuits. I am also giving her chicken to subsidise her lack of cat food eating and she was sick feeding her at 5 this morning (no meat given at that point).

As in my previous posts I have never had a cat and she was sick from the time I had her so feeding has never really got into a routine. She eats food quickly so have to feed small amounts. Currently usually feed FAM mea 5 am and then 6.30am (chicken at moment), a few dry biscuits left while at work and then FAM at about 4.15 and chicken at 5.30-6 and then a few biscuits overnight.

I am concered my feeding regime may be contributing to her sickness. The vet has said to try her on FAM pancreatic for 2 weeks but I am not sure if giving it with chicken is a good idea or not. Could she be reacting to the chicken although she was having that for a week prior to starting FAM and had not been sick. Are there any other hydrolysed wet foods? Sorry I know this does not fit with elimination diet but I hate seeing her not enjoying her food but worried I am contributing to her problem.


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## chillminx

Hi @Dawnie M - the only wet food I know of that is hydrolised protein is the Hills ZD, and it does not seem to be popular with many cats. If your cat does not like it, I would not persevere with it tbh, because if she can't enjoy her meals it is going to a cause of stress and unhappiness to her.

What make is the Specific Food Allergy management food you are giving her? If she is vomiting almost daily and usually after she has eaten the dry food, then that doesn't seem a good food for her either.

If I have understood you correctly, she is fed at 6.30 am and then has nothing all day apart from a few pieces of kibble until you feed her at 4.15 pm. So that is nearly 10 hours she is going without food other than a few biscuits?! I wouldn't be leaving her without food for so long as she has the health problem with her pancreas. She needs regular small meals throughout the day and night.

She may be bolting her food down fast because she gets so hungry.

I would feed her wet food, little but often. e.g. 6 small meals a day. Use the whole 24 hour period, so she never goes more than 4 hours with no wet food to eat.

When you are going out for the day feed her right before you leave, and also put 2 wet meals for her in an automatic pet-feeder with a timer. Timed to open 4 hours and 8 hours after her last meal. Use the same autofeeder through the night for another 2 of her meals.

My auto-feeder is the Cat Mate C20 from Amazon. It's reliable and not too expensive. Just remember to check the battery is still working each time you use it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Mate-C20-Automatic-Feeder/dp/B0002YHUPC/ref=sr_1_5?crid=70A3NO6M3625&keywords=cat+mate+c20+automatic+pet+feeder&qid=1582069333&sprefix=cat+mate+c20+,aps,136&sr=8-5

I'd start off feeding her something bland such as poached white fish, (if she will eat it) chopped and served with plenty of the cooking liquid (juices). White fish is very soothing to the gut. I give it to one of my cats a couple of times a week as part of his diet. He has IBD and Diabetes Mellitus. Tesco sells bags fo frozen white fish (pollock) quite reasonably.

I would also give her home cooked turkey thigh, (buy chopped from the supermarket) cooked in a covered casserole dish in the oven for about an hour, gas mark 5 until the meat is soft and easy for her eat. Keep the liquid in the pot topped up with boiling water from the kettle so the meat is covered all through cooking.

If you can get her stabilised on the white fish and the turkey for a few days (so there is no vomiting) with wet food every 4 hours, and NO dry food at all, then we could have a look at what cat foods might suit her.

You could actually continue feeding her just turkey thigh meat and white fish but long term you would need to add a "completer" to it, to give her all the vitamins and minerals she needs in the right amounts. One such completer is Felini Complete sold by Zooplus UK.


----------



## msnicollen

Hello again everyone, a quick question, can you tell me if the ingredients of this food are good for allergic cats : 
Fresh rabbit meat (40%). Rabbit meat meal(30%). potato (14%). Hydrolysed rabbit meat (5%). Potato protein. Oils and fats. Yeast. Beet pulp. Carob flour. Vegetable fibres. Potassium chloride. Sodium chloride. Sodium polyphosphates. Inulin (0.1% Fructooligosaccharides). Mannan-oligosaccharides (0.1%).
Thank you.


----------



## chillminx

msnicollen said:


> Hello again everyone, a quick question, can you tell me if the ingredients of this food are good for allergic cats :
> Fresh rabbit meat (40%). Rabbit meat meal(30%). potato (14%). Hydrolysed rabbit meat (5%). Potato protein. Oils and fats. Yeast. Beet pulp. Carob flour. Vegetable fibres. Potassium chloride. Sodium chloride. Sodium polyphosphates. Inulin (0.1% Fructooligosaccharides). Mannan-oligosaccharides (0.1%).
> Thank you.


Rabbit is not a novel protein for cats. Most cats have eaten rabbit at some point in their lives because it's added to quite a few cat foods. Some cats are allergic to rabbit - one of my cats is. Your cat might be OK with rabbit; on the other hand he might not be. No way of knowing I'm afraid, without trying him with it.

Potato is not a great ingredient (very high in carbs) and the content is quite high at 14%.

Meat meal is a cheap form of meat protein. Quite a lot of meat meal in this food at 30%.

Only 5% of the meat is hydrolised, so such a small amount unlikely to make the food less of a potential allergen.

Carob can be used for medicinal purposes, to improve digestion, or to treat diarrhoea. Not sure I would want it added to cat food.


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## msnicollen

Hello everyone, what does this look like to you?


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## chillminx

msnicollen said:


> Hello everyone, what does this look like to you?


It looks like a scab to me?


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## msnicollen

chillminx said:


> It looks like a scab to me?


According to our vet this is an yeast infection, don't know what to do anymore. Is it yeast, is it flea allergy or food allergy....


----------



## chillminx

msnicollen said:


> According to our vet this is an yeast infection, don't know what to do anymore. Is it yeast, is it flea allergy or food allergy....


Has the vet taken a sample (a scraping) and had it cultured at the lab, to diagnose a fungal infection?

What treatment has he prescribed for your cat?

https://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/skin/c_ct_malassezia_dermatitis


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## msnicollen

chillminx said:


> Has the vet taken a sample (a scraping) and had it cultured at the lab, to diagnose a fungal infection?
> 
> What treatment has he prescribed for your cat?
> 
> https://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/skin/c_ct_malassezia_dermatitis


He took a sample today, waiting for results tomorrow but he was certain it is not a food allergy, we went to a different vet for new opinion and that was his conclusion- yeast infection. She had the scabs since January, wouldn't we get yeast infection from her or our other cat??? I constantly hug her and kiss her but I have nothing??? It is just weird to me if it is an yeast infection.


----------



## msnicollen

chillminx said:


> Has the vet taken a sample (a scraping) and had it cultured at the lab, to diagnose a fungal infection?
> 
> What treatment has he prescribed for your cat?
> 
> https://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/skin/c_ct_malassezia_dermatitis


He said the treatment would be 4 injections( vaccinations) for yeast infection. And every year we have to do two vaccinations so it won't come back


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## msnicollen

Hello, apparently, my kitten has ringworm according to another vet, who took a sample and today the result came out. Problem is I doubt that because:
1. The kitten has been like this for two months now and no one has got it. The other kitten is okay and me and my partner also even though if it is a ringworm it is highly contagious. How come we are okay? I hug her and kiss her all the time and I have no symptoms at all.
2.When she was having hypoallergenic food, the scabs disappeared. If it is a ringworm, how come she cleared up?
3. I don't believe that results come out so quickly, for half a day???
4. She has no bold spots whatsoever.
Opinions?
Thank you!


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## chillminx

I am not sure if tests for ringworm have a risk of false positives or not. But if you are not convinced it is ringworm I would ask for another test to be done, perhaps by another vet. Ringworm is a type of fungal infection and one of the vets has already diagnosed a fungal infection, yes?

https://icatcare.org/advice/ringworm-in-cats/

It is true that ringworm is very contagious but I have known of cases where only one cat in the household got it and the others didn't, and the humans did not catch it. It depends on how good the cat's or human's immune system is as to how well they resist it. It is usually a new cat to the household who brings in the ringworm.

If ringworm is confirmed please inform the breeder or the Rescue where the kitten came from.


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## msnicollen

The previous vet said it was a food allergy and he gave her shots for the itch for two weeks, she cleared up and scabs were gone. But then she had some Royal Canine food because the breeder said it is impossible to be a food allergy, she was sure it was flea allergy. Three days later scabs came back and the photo I posted two days ago is from the new scab around her tail. The breeder sent me to her vet and he took a sample yesterday, today he said it is a ringworm. The breeder's kittens are okay, everyone is okay besides my little girl! I feel just crazy, honestly....I just don't know what to do anymore and how to help my kitten. It looks like a food allergy to me but...


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## chillminx

@msnicollen - well, I agree it is dermatitis but what has caused the dermatitis has to be diagnosed by the vet. Dermatitis due to a food allergy does not necessarily look any different to dermatitis from another cause. That's why skin scrapings need doing for the lab to culture to identify the cause of the dermatitis.

Quotes from Icat Care website:

*"*The appearance of dermatophyte infections (e.g. ringworm) in cats is very variable. Some cats have severe skin disease, while other cats have only very minor lesions or no obvious lesions at all and may look completely normal."

"Ringworm can look very similar to many other feline skin diseases, including [...] flea allergy dermatitis, and may present as symmetrical alopecia or even feline acne. Some loss of hair is usually involved, but the amount of inflammation, scaling and itchiness (pruritus) is variable."

Three diagnostic tests are commonly used::

1/ Examination under ultraviolet illumination. This can be a quick, easy test to see if infection is likely, however only around 50% of cases show fluorescence.Other dermatophyte infections do not result in fluorescence, and some medications or contaminants on the skin or fur hair can also cause fluorescence.

For these reasons, other tests are needed aswell to make a diagnosis.

2/ Microscopic examination of suspected hairs: examination of hairs and skin scrapings under a microscope, collected from an area of skin suspected to be infected by the dermatophyte, can be very valuable. Fungal elements can often be seen along with spores surrounding infected hairs, but accurate results require experience and this is often best done at a laboratory.

3/ Culture of hairs in the laboratory using a special fungal culture medium is the most reliable way of diagnosing infection. In addition, this test enables the species of dermatophyte to be identified. One disadvantage is that it *can take up to 3 weeks to get a result from a fungal culture* (my emphasis)

"If one cat in a household is diagnosed as having ringworm all the other animals in the home will need to be examined, even if they seem to be completely unaffected. In most cases all cats in a household will be culture-positive and require treatment. Please note that the absence of dermatophytes on microscopic examination of a skin biopsy does not rule out dermatophytosis."

Has your vet had a fungal culture done of the cat's hair at the lab? As you see from the quotes above, the fungal culture is the most reliable test. If one has not been done then ask your vet to arrange one, or go to another vet and and ask them to do it.

If the first vet said it was a food allergy then I assume he did not test your cat for ringworm?

The breeder's kittens may well have undiagnosed ringworm. (see above in the quotes) If I were her I would get all my kittens tested in view of the diagnosis your kitten has been given. Where else could your kitten have caught ring worm except at the breeder's?

Is the breeder a proper registered breeder of pedigree cats, or does she have an unspayed female cat whom she allows to go out and mate with any passing tom cat ? if its the latter then that's how the cat got ringworm and passed it to your kitten (and all the other kittens)

if your kitten has never been outside and your other cat is OK (is your other cat an indoor cat?) and you have no other pets, then the ringworm has not come since you brought the kitten home. She brought it with her from the breeder, no matter what the breeder says.


----------



## KatyV

Ooooops posted on the wrong page sorry!!

Thank You! This is exactly what I needed and what I was looking for.


Pibbs is my first and only pet so I'm really not as clued up as I know I should be, I've always just trusted that I can take him to the vet if he's unwell and they will make him better. I know that sounds wrong but he's always been very happy and very healthy until he got the skin problem. I would never have linked the two together.


At the moment I'm feeding him just whiskas fish selection in jelly pouches for 7+ cats and then purina go-cat chicken, turkey and veg to keep him happy in between meals as i felt terrible not giving him treats, this combination seemed to work the best. I had no idea about the proteins I honestly thought it may just be different brands have different ingredients so I narrowed it down to this combination working the best. Sounds really stupid I know but this is exactly why I came here for advice, I needed someone to explain this to me - the vet hasnt seemed to clue me in a lot with whats actually going on just more injections and pills.


I really didnt expect to find such a perfect answer in just one day!


I will get on this right away, are there any particular brands you recommend for the foods? - I'm in the UK so will have to order online.


Thank you!!


----------



## Minuscule

Hello Chillminx,

Just a quick question, when doing an elimination diet, at first when you switch your cat's usual food for a novel protein one, do you switch gradually or do you introduce the new food without a transition?

Thanks


----------



## chillminx

Hi @Minuscule  I hope you're keeping well, and staying safe during the pandemic. x

With regard to the elimination diet :- if the problem is chronic diarrhoea I'd introduce the new food (the novel protein) gradually, and increase slowly if there is no bad reaction in the poo department; taking about 3 days to complete the introduction of the new food.

If the problem is chronic itching and/or dermatitis I'd still start off slowly (as with any new food) but if the poo is normal over the next 48 hours I would feed the new food as normal from then on,

I hope he gets on with the novel protein - which one have you chosen? Kangaroo?


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## Minuscule

Hi Chillminx,
I'm safe for now thanks, working from home at the moment (I hope I'll be able to continue!). What about you?

Yes, the problem is chronic diarrhoea. Actually Ren is doing very will on RC gastrointestinal, he hasn't had any soft poops for a year and a half! It's just that I worry that the food gets difficult to source and I have 6 small cans of kangaroo so I thought I could maybe give him some as well as his regular food. However, I don't want to ruin the "novelty" of this protein (kangaroo is the only one I'm sure he never had before) if I need to do an elimination diet... I am trying to reintroduce some Ropocat rabbit to see if it affects his poops but I think it will


----------



## Minuscule

Hi Chillminx,
I'm safe for now thanks, working from home at the moment (I hope I'll be able to continue!). What about you?

Yes, the problem is chronic diarrhoea. Actually Ren is doing very will on RC gastrointestinal, he hasn't had any soft poops for a year and a half! It's just that I worry that the food gets difficult to source and I have 6 small cans of kangaroo so I thought I could maybe give him some as well as his regular food. However, I don't want to ruin the "novelty" of this protein (kangaroo is the only one I'm sure he never had before) if I need to do an elimination diet... I am trying to reintroduce some Ropocat rabbit to see if it affects his poops but I think it will 

Edit: Sorry, my connection went wrong and I double posted. I can't find how to delete one of the messages


----------



## purringcats

chillminx said:


> The only way to get reliable results is to use a novel protein. The diet must also be dairy free and grain free (which includes no rice).
> 
> I think it is useful to rule out other possible environmental allergens in the home that could affect skin and ears. e.g.
> 
> 1/ use only non-bio unscented laundry liquid for your own bedding and the cat's bedding. (Tesco sells Surcare, Boots and Waitrose sell their own makes).
> 
> 2/ do not use fabric softener
> 
> 3/ use no chemical cleaners on worktops and hard floors. Instead use a weak solution of white vinegar, cooled boiled water and lemon juice or strips of lemon peel soaked in the vinegar.
> 
> 4/ use no plug-in scent diffusers, scented candles, room spray or hair spray.
> 
> The choice of novel protein foods is as follows:-
> 
> 2/ *Reindeer, goat or horse -* from Vet Concept
> 
> https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/katzenmenü-rentier
> 
> https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/katzenmenü-ziege
> 
> https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/katzenmenünbsp;sana-pferd


Thank you @chillminx for linking this thread to my thread.

The above links are to a German site and when it translated to English I think it says you need a prescription from the vet or something like that..


----------



## chillminx

purringcats said:


> Thank you @chillminx for linking this thread to my thread.
> 
> The above links are to a German site and when it translated to English I think it says you need a prescription from the vet or something like that..


Do you mean links to online pet food companies? They are all different websites, different companies. The only one that may possibly now require a vet's prescription is Vet Concept. (they did not used to need a prescription)

Forget about Vet Concept then. There are the other places to buy the foods needed for the diet - Zooplus, Zoo-bio Uk and Fuettern-mit-spass. All listed and linked in this thread. Yes, they are in Germany, but that's where the good cat foods tend to come from .


----------



## msnicollen

Hello, has anyone tried this food?
https://www.zooplus.com/shop/cats/e...ts/exclusives_concept_for_life_vet_cat/794962
What is your opinion about pet food with insects protein?


----------



## purringcats

I had a delivery of raw meat delivered today from my local butchers due to me being in medical lockdown due to being at high risk of catching Covid 19 due to my health.

I had delivered 1kg of spring lamb mutton and 1kg of prime beef. The butcher also delivered 1 farmed rabbit.

I gave my cat some lamb mutton when I had finished bagging it up and she scoffed it up.

The meats I have to use on the elemination diet now are Pork, Turkey, Beef, Rabbit and Lamb Mutton.

I do have a query though. Could chicken based premix cause allergies?


----------



## chillminx

purringcats said:


> I had a delivery of raw meat delivered today from my local butchers due to me being in medical lockdown due to being at high risk of catching Covid 19 due to my health.
> 
> I had delivered 1kg of spring lamb mutton and 1kg of prime beef. The butcher also delivered 1 farmed rabbit.
> 
> I gave my cat some lamb mutton when I had finished bagging it up and she scoffed it up.
> 
> The meats I have to use on the elemination diet now are Pork, Turkey, Beef, Rabbit and Lamb Mutton.
> 
> I do have a query though. Could chicken based premix cause allergies?


It is great your cat likes the raw meat and you have 5 different meat proteins to feed her in rotation. Excellent. 

Just to say - you will not be able to conduct a genuine elimination diet as none of the meats are novel proteins for a cat raised in the UK. But you can carry out an exclusion diet using the meats as single meat proteins. This would mean feeding her each meat protein on its own for 3 weeks. Nothing else except fresh water.

At the end of the 3 week period you would introduce the next meat protein for 3 weeks and so on, until you have tried her with all 5 meat proteins over 15 weeks. Keep a daily log of symptoms.

Yes, if she is allergic to chicken, she will react to a chicken based premix. Which premix do you have?

Felini Complete doesn't mention any ingredient as being chicken based, and markets it on the basis it's hypoallergenic.

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/supplements_specialty_cat_food/vitamins/155860


----------



## chillminx

msnicollen said:


> Hello, has anyone tried this food?
> https://www.zooplus.com/shop/cats/e...ts/exclusives_concept_for_life_vet_cat/794962
> What is your opinion about pet food with insects protein?


I would go carefully. Insects are a very rich source of protein and to feed a cat a lot of insects at once could have unwanted effects on their bowels.

"Concept for Life Veterinary Diet Hypoallergenic dry food with insects:
Ingredients:
30.0% insect protein (larvae of Hermetia illucens, dried), 29.5% sorghum, pea protein, 5.0% peas, vegetable protein hydrolysate, 3.9% salmon oil, gelatine hydrolysate, calcium sulphate dihydrate, calcium carbonate, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, dried beet pulp (desugared), sunflower oil, linseed, 0.2% chicory inulin, seaweed meal (rich in DHA*)
Protein source: Insects, sorghum"

I would not be keen on feeding this food as it contains a high percentage of grain (29.5% sorghum) so it's high in carbs which cats do not need and can cause overweight issues. It also contains pea protein which cats cannot process as they lack the right enzymes.

And if the food were to be fed every day to a cat who suffers from food allergies the risk is the cat will eventually develop an allergy to this food too. Just because it contains insects does not exclude the possibility of a food allergy developing if fed to a cat every day.

When you have a cat you suspect [or know] has food allergies, it's best first to identify which foods they are allergic to (by means of an elimination diet). Then formulate a wet food diet for them where food is grain free and the proteins are rotated so they don't eat the same protein every day.

If you were to do that, you could maybe include a wet food that contains insects as one of the their proteins for one day of the week.

There are a few wet foods on the market that contain insects as part of the protein - Mjamjam makes one. But it contains chicken as well, so no good if your cat is allergic to chicken.

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/mjamjam/97894-insect-with-juicy-chicken-wet-food-for-cats-without-grain


----------



## purringcats

My cat is loving the raw spring lamb mutton (with hard fat chunks cut off) but I noticed she has gone from 2 pees a day to 1 pee. Is this anything to be worried about? Her hair has gone nice and silky smooth.


----------



## chillminx

purringcats said:


> My cat is loving the raw spring lamb mutton (with hard fat chunks cut off) but I noticed she has gone from 2 pees a day to 1 pee. Is this anything to be worried about? Her hair has gone nice and silky smooth.


Yes I think that is a concern. Two pees a day would be normal.

It best to add water to her raw food to ensure she is getting the fluids she needs. If the meat is minced you can add quite a bit of water to it before serving it. It is harder to add water to meat chunks as the cat often will not drink it.

Are you adding a vitamin and mineral completer to the meat - e.g. Felini Complete?

I am glad she is enjoying the lamb.


----------



## purringcats

chillminx said:


> Yes I think that is a concern. Two pees a day would be normal.
> 
> It best to add water to her raw food to ensure she is getting the fluids he needs. If the meat is minced you can add quite a bit of water to it before serving it. It is harder to add water to meat chunks as the cat often will not drink it.
> 
> Are you adding a vitamin and mineral completer to the meat - e.g. Felini Complete?
> 
> I am glad she is enjoying the lamb.


I did today but last couple of days before hand no.


----------



## Animalfan

Hello, I'm new to this thread and I'm currently awaiting my delivery of Catz finefood purr Kangaroo. I was just wondering @chillminx if you have any experience in allergy cats not being itchy?? 
He never appears itchy at all and doesn't appear to over groom but he gets bald patches of lumpy, thickened skin under his chin/ neck and at the back of his hind legs.
It's something I've never come across before.


----------



## chillminx

Animalfan said:


> Hello, I'm new to this thread and I'm currently awaiting my delivery of Catz finefood purr Kangaroo. I was just wondering @chillminx if you have any experience in allergy cats not being itchy??
> He never appears itchy at all and doesn't appear to over groom but he gets bald patches of lumpy, thickened skin under his chin/ neck and at the back of his hind legs.
> It's something I've never come across before.


There are causes, other than allergies, of alopecia (baldness) in cats. Has the vet ruled out e.g. fleas, mites and ringworm?

Icat Care says :---

" in humans and dogs, hair loss is almost always hormonal in origin. However, in cats, hormonal skin disease is so rare as to be virtually non-existent. Hair loss in cats is actually almost always caused by excessive self-grooming due to pruritus (*itching) *- but cats may be 'secret groomers' and often we may be unaware that the cat is grooming more frequently or more aggressively."

https://icatcare.org/advice/the-pruritic-itchy-cat-when-it-is-not-fleas/

One of my own cats began over-grooming last year and I hadn't seen her scratching so I assumed it had a behavioural cause i.e. stress. But I couldn't see any reason for her be over-grooming due to stress, as nothing had changed at home, and she gets on well with my other cats. She is a cheerful little soul, who enjoys life and she loves her time out in the garden.

The vet gave her steroids and she stopped over-grooming, which indicated it was due to itching. If it was purely behavioural the steroids would have had little effect. Has your cat had a course of steroids and did it help at all?

Over grooming on the head, neck or chin can often be signs of a food allergy. I discovered through an elimination diet that my girl is allergic to chicken and turkey.

I hope your cat likes the CFF Purrr kangaroo and that things improve with his skin.


----------



## Animalfan

chillminx said:


> There are causes, other than allergies, of alopecia (baldness) in cats. Has the vet ruled out e.g. fleas, mites and ringworm?
> 
> Icat Care says :---
> 
> " in humans and dogs, hair loss is almost always hormonal in origin. However, in cats, hormonal skin disease is so rare as to be virtually non-existent. Hair loss in cats is actually almost always caused by excessive self-grooming due to pruritus (*itching) *- but cats may be 'secret groomers' and often we may be unaware that the cat is grooming more frequently or more aggressively."
> 
> https://icatcare.org/advice/the-pruritic-itchy-cat-when-it-is-not-fleas/
> 
> One of my own cats began over-grooming last year and I hadn't seen her scratching so I assumed it had a behavioural cause i.e. stress. But I couldn't see any reason for her be over-grooming due to stress, as nothing had changed at home, and she gets on well with my other cats. She is a cheerful little soul, who enjoys life and she loves her time out in the garden.
> 
> The vet gave her steroids and she stopped over-grooming, which indicated it was due to itching. If it was purely behavioural the steroids would have had little effect. Has your cat had a course of steroids and did it help at all?
> 
> Over grooming on the head, neck or chin can often be signs of a food allergy. I discovered through an elimination diet that my girl is allergic to chicken and turkey.
> 
> I hope your cat likes the CFF Purrr kangaroo and that things improve with his skin.


Thanks for the reply.
So....Roo came as an abandoned kitten in quite a poor state. Sticky eyes and snotty nose and just overall in poor condition. We nursed him through that and then the skin issues started, or maybe thats when we first noticed. Another foster fail on my part lol I just couldn't let this sweetheart go.
Anyway, long story short...he does have steroid injections but I try to keep this to a minimum, he has also had skin biopsies which just stated the thickened/ lumpy skin was inflamed tissue, if caught early enough I can sort it with Piriton at home without the need for steroids.
* the more I think and type the more I am realising my cat is a secret scratcher/over groomer*
Everything you have said makes sense, the steroids do ease the skin so he is definitely itchy.
I will eagerly await my CFF and keep you updated.
Thanks again x


----------



## Animalfan

@chillminx 
Hi, just a quick update on Roo.
I sent away a hair sample to a German lab for intolerance testing. I understand from all my research that these aren't very reliable but just wondered what your thoughts were on the results. Luckily no environmental factors seem to be an issue but here is the rest.....
High reactivity:
Duck
Fish
Lamb
Pork
Cornflour 
Lentils
Yeast

Moderate reactivity:
Veal
Seasame

Mild reactivity:
Beef 
Carrot
Dairy

I still intend to carry out the elimination diet but would you avoid what is listed or introduce at the right time to check for any reaction?

TIA x


----------



## chillminx

Well, as you say these tests are not very reliable. But it is quite possible Roo could have an intolerance to some of the things listed if he has eaten them a lot. e.g fish, lamb, pork, yeast. (yeast is often added to cat food) Pork is not a meat commonly used in cat foods, but that's not to say Roo has never eaten it.

Has he ever eaten much duck? If not, then he is unlikely to be allergic to it. It is not a common ingredient in cat foods because it is too expensive for manufacturers to use.

I see chicken is not mentioned, but that is probably because he has not eaten it for years so his antibodies will be low.

I haven't heard of cornflour being used as a thickener in cat foods, but I suppose it is possible. Tapioca is quite common, as are carrageenan and cassia gum, all of which can cause intolerance problems for some cats.

Lentils are sometimes added to dry cat foods as a source of fibre, so he may have had those.

Beef and veal are the exact same protein, so he would have the same reaction to both if he is allergic to them.

Sesame could be an allergen, but is not often added to cat food AFAIK.

Dairy products are a common source of intolerance as the cat lacks the right enzyme (lactase) to process the lactose.

I have never heard of a cat not tolerating carrot, it is usually well tolerated. But I suppose if Ro has eaten a lot of carrot over the years it could be the case.

The only true way to tell is to try him with all these things gradually over the course of the elimination diet (i.e. after the initial 8 - 10 weeks on the kangaroo diet) Check if any of the things listed are in the kangaroo food, I don't think they are...


----------



## Animalfan

Thanks Chillminx,

The carrot did throw me a little, although I think he may have had it before. I’ve tried lots of different foods over the last 2 years and it is literally impossible to remember them all.

Chicken he has regularly. 

Duck I know he has definitely had. All four kitties were settled on Bozita for a long while and duck was up there in the favourites. Unfortunately we are stuck on Felix atm. We had an issue were all 4 cats became sick with a GI bug, all at the same time and the only thing I could get them to eat was junk food. Its taking a while to convince them otherwise although they are all enjoying the CFF kangaroo.
I’ll just carry on as planned with the elimination diet
Thanks again


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## CherylOK

Hi hoping someone can help please. 

Izzy is 9yrs old and has allergy's for a long time. But had got worse since Xmas. She has been on a dry hydrolysed protein food and steroid injection for 12 weeks with a significant improvement but I want to get her back onto wet food. 

Having been on hydrolysed for 12weeks can we move onto stage two or do we need to do stage one of so why?

Thanks all.


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## chillminx

CherylOK said:


> Hi hoping someone can help please.
> 
> Izzy is 9yrs old and has allergy's for a long time. But had got worse since Xmas. She has been on a dry hydrolysed protein food and steroid injection for 12 weeks with a significant improvement but I want to get her back onto wet food.
> Having been on hydrolysed for 12weeks can we move onto stage two or do we need to do stage one of so why?
> Thanks all.


Hi Cheryl, you would need to start with Stage One - the novel protein. Dry hydrolised protein food does not count as a novel protein I'm afraid. Too many different ingredients, and also not all cats are protected from allergens by eating hydrolised protein (particularly if it is something commonly put in cat food like chicken)

The novel protein for 8 to 10 weeks is what allows the immune system to calm down naturally before challenging it with Stage 2 of the diet.

How long since she had the steroid injection? It is best to wait until fairly near the end of the 12 weeks, because the results with a novel protein will not be conclusive while the steroid is still having an effect. If you start it say 10 weeks after the injection, then you would add another 2 weeks on to the end of the Novel protein part of the diet.


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## CherylOK

So here's my concern her allergy are seasonal / environmental as well as food related so diet alone is isn't going to solve the problem. The injection lasts 3 weeks according to the vet but she has a steroid every 4 - 6 weeks or so depending how much overgrooming and itching is going on. 

She last had a steroid yesterday and 5 weeks before that.


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## chillminx

CherylOK said:


> So here's my concern her allergy are seasonal / environmental as well as food related so diet alone is isn't going to solve the problem. The injection lasts 3 weeks according to the vet but she has a steroid every 4 - 6 weeks or so depending how much overgrooming and itching is going on.
> She last had a steroid yesterday and 5 weeks before that.


Diet alone may not solve all her problems but if you can identify which foods are allergens through an elimination diet and remove them from her diet, there will be less of a constant challenge to her immune system. As a result the environmental allergies may be less severe.

I assume you want to avoid her being on steroids long term because of the risk of diabetes? Particularly with long acting steroids. If the food allergens were reduced it is possible she could manage with a small dose of oral steroids when she needs them seasonally. That would be healthier for her than long acting steroids all the time.

Maybe the environmental allergies could be managed in other ways? If they are due to seasonal pollen you could try keeping her indoors in the daytime when the pollen count is high and get an air purifier for indoors. Have you tried her on antihistamines?

Have you managed to identify what she is allergic to in the environment?


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## CherylOK

Hi 

So we have been feeding catsz fine foods for 2 weeks now and Izzy is definitely itching again. Pink skin and fur thinning 

Do I move on to one of the other stage one foods?


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## CherylOK

Hi also to answer a few of the other questions which I missed

She had oral steroids many times throughout the years most years starting in October and taking them solid through to April time, even on higher doses I would consider the results minimal with almost complete hair loss over her stomach and back legs and sore spots on her sides. But it did at least stop her licking and biting until she bled. She was eating vet concept reindeer at the time

The long lasting steroids and hydrolysed food over 3 months is the first time in 5 years + that I seen almost total improvement. But as I am obviously worried about the long term impact I need to look into other solutions. She is 9 years old so hopefully many more years ahead of her.

Her allergies seem to be worst in winter much worse so I don't think it's pollen. We did have an allergy test done and it indicates some grass and a number of trees but how reliable these test are is debatable.


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## chillminx

Hi @CherylOK - which Catz Fine Food is she eating ? Is it the kangaroo?

I am concerned that she was itchy on the venison.

I wonder if it could be some additive in the food that she is reacting to with the Catz Fine Food?


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## CherylOK

Hi 

Sorry yes kangaroo


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## CherylOK

Also clearing out the cat food cupboard of all the abandoned food from the last year (I've also a megacolon cat so fiber balance issues) this was one of the last food she was on before we started the steroid injection (6months prior) and it probably made her the worst


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## chillminx

@CherylOK - you could consider feeding her home cooked mince with a completer added. I have had to do this with one of my cats who has food allergies as I could not get her to eat any of the novel protein foods.

Since I put her on this diet she has been much better, the itchiness is almost gone and her fur is growing back.

She has minced beef, pork, and turkey, fried a few minutes in goose fat or pork lard.

I add either Purrform Completer or Felini Complete. Either make is suitable for adding to home cooked pure meat.

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/supplements_specialty_cat_food/vitamins/155860

https://www.purrform.co.uk/product/purrform-complete-supplement-50g/

I rotate the meats so she does not eat the same one two days in succession. She is also Ok with poached white fish once a week and cooked wild rabbit once a week.


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## msnicollen

Hello everyone, 
I don't know if my post is for this thread but finally we found out what is wrong with our cats! 
For five months we have been going around different vets and none of them took a test of our cat's fur to check for bacteria or ringworm.
Boo is 10 months old and since January she has had miliary dermatitis and she has been itchy all the time. 
Today the sample came out, both of our cats have Deep Pyoderma but Boo has very red gums the vet thinks she might have EGC also but she is not entirely sure because the bacterial infection is so bad that her gums might be infected because of it. 
So we have to give them antibiotics and corticosteroids for Boo. 
The vet wants me to do an elimination diet with Hypoallergenic dry food but I am against it!
I am thinking of starting the elimination diet with kangaroo cans or raw diet with horse( have too look it up further).
Vet suggested we do an allergy test and send it in Germany, according to her the tests are reliable? The test covers food and environmental allergies. It is quite expensive.
My question is should I wait to finish the antibiotics and make sure if her symptoms are all based on the Pyoderma?
Is it possible she might not have an allergy at all, just a severe bacterial infection?
Can someone give me an advice?
We are also waiting for the tests for ringworm to come out maybe in a week.
Thank you!


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## chillminx

@msnicollen - Cats have a higher risk of developing a skin infection when they have a fungal infection, an endocrine disease such as hyperthyroidism, or if they have an allergy to fleas, food ingredients, or a parasite such as Demodex (mites).

I would say the skin infection will have some underlying cause and I assume [with all the tests that were done] the vet ruled out a flea allergy, fungal infection, hyperT, and mites? So that leaves a food allergy as a possible cause...

One of my cats, when I adopted him as a rescued stray, had severe dermatitis and a secondary bacterial skin infection due to him scratching himself. In his case the underlying problem was food allergies.

I agree with you, I definitely would not use a dry food for an elimination diet, whether "hypoallergenic" or not. All dry foods contain too many unsuitable ingredients for them to be used for an elimination diet.

You could start the novel protein food straight away (e.g. the kangaroo) you don't need to wait until the antibiotics and steroids are finished. But be aware you will need to extend the number of weeks on Stage One [novel protein] part of the diet for Boo as she is on steroids.

If Boo has been given a long-acting steroid it will be effective for about 4 weeks, so you would need to add on the time she still has left to the end of the first part of the food trial. This shouldn't be a problem as long as she is happy to eat the same food (and nothing else except water to drink) for up to 12 weeks. If you doubt that she would tolerate one food for so long, then you are better waiting until the effect of the steroid has worn off and then start the elimination diet.


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## msnicollen

chillminx said:


> @msnicollen - Cats have a higher risk of developing a skin infection when they have a fungal infection, an endocrine disease such as hyperthyroidism, or if they have an allergy to fleas, food ingredients, or a parasite such as Demodex (mites).
> 
> I would say the skin infection will have some underlying cause and I assume [with all the tests that were done] the vet ruled out a flea allergy, fungal infection, hyperT, and mites? So that leaves a food allergy as a possible cause...
> 
> One of my cats, when I adopted him as a rescued stray, had severe dermatitis and a secondary bacterial skin infection due to him scratching himself. In his case the underlying problem was food allergies.
> 
> I agree with you, I definitely would not use a dry food for an elimination diet, whether "hypoallergenic" or not.  All dry foods contain too many unsuitable ingredients for them to be used for an elimination diet.
> 
> You could start the novel protein food straight away (e.g. the kangaroo) you don't need to wait until the antibiotics and steroids are finished. But be aware you will need to extend the number of weeks on Stage One [novel protein] part of the diet for Boo as she is on steroids.
> 
> If Boo has been given a long-acting steroid it will be effective for about 4 weeks, so you would need to add on the time she still has left to the end of the first part of the food trial. This shouldn't be a problem as long as she is happy to eat the same food (and nothing else except water to drink) for up to 12 weeks. If you doubt that she would tolerate one food for so long, then you are better waiting until the effect of the steroid has worn off and then start the elimination diet.


We are still waiting for the results from the fungal test because it takes longer, probably a week here in Bulgaria. We did treat her for ringworm a month ago because another vet found out she had ringworm and her skin got better but the itching didn't go away. I have no idea what the result will be now. Can a bacterial infection occur as a secondary skin infection due to the ringworm? 
Our vet said it is either some kind of allergy and as a secondary infection she got the bacteria. Or it could be the ringworm first and then the bacteria infection, which caused her gums to be inflamed. 
My concern is if she has EGC and if it is treatable? That sounds scary to me. 
We have to give her corticosteroids for 7 days every 24 hours and then three more times every 48 hours, in total 10 days. 
So if I start the elimination diet I should extend the kangaroo one week more? 
What is your opinion about the test in Germany? Is it a good idea to do it? Is it reliable? Vet told us it gives info on everything.... food, pollens, mites and so on. 
I treat them with Stronghold Plus every month, so no it is not a flea allergy or any parasite I think. 
It is either food or environmental. We have a bearded dragon lizard and Boo loves him, could he be some kind of allergen to her? 
Thank you for you kindness and advice!


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## chillminx

@msnicollen - yes, a bacterial infection could occur as a secondary skin infection due to a fungal infection including ringworm, if the cat has been scratching a lot due to itchiness. The inflamed gums might be a separate issue possibly, perhaps due to her immune system not being as healthy as it should, at present.

EGC could also cause a secondary bacterial infection if she has been scratching at herself a lot. EGC can be due to allergies in some cases. One of my cats used to get eosinophilic ulcers on his mouth and these turned out to be due to food allergies.

https://icatcare.org/advice/eosinophilic-granuloma-complex/

If you are gong to start the kangaroo diet, yes, I would extend it for an extra week.

Blood tests for feline food allergies (or food intolerances) have always been notoriously unreliable as well as being expensive. So if it is a blood test I might be dubious about the usefulness of it.

If it is a test of skin scrapings to test for e.g. fungal infections or mites etc, then it would be useful, but I would have thought there'd be an animal testing laboratory nearer to you than Germany and perhaps less expensive?

EDIT: I know little about keeping a reptile as a pet, but I know all reptiles can carry harmful bacteria on their skin or in their faeces, e.g salmonella, botulism or campylobacter to name a few. A cat would have better resistance to these types of bacteria than a human would, but if Boo had lesions on her skin from a fungal infection, EGC or allergies, I guess in theory the lesions could become infected with bacteria from her close contact with the bearded dragon. But it's probably more likely the bacterial skin infection has been caused by Boo scratching due to itchiness. As I expect you know, small reptiles are the natural prey of cats, but hopefully the bearded dragon is too big to arouse Boo's prey instinct.


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## msnicollen

chillminx said:


> @msnicollen - yes, a bacterial infection could occur as a secondary skin infection due to a fungal infection including ringworm, if the cat has been scratching a lot due to itchiness. The inflamed gums might be a separate issue possibly, perhaps due to her immune system not being as healthy as it should, at present.
> 
> EGC could also cause a secondary bacterial infection if she has been scratching at herself a lot. EGC can be due to allergies in some cases. One of my cats used to get eosinophilic ulcers on his mouth and these turned out to be due to food allergies.
> 
> https://icatcare.org/advice/eosinophilic-granuloma-complex/
> 
> If you are gong to start the kangaroo diet, yes, I would extend it for an extra week.
> 
> Blood tests for feline food allergies (or food intolerances) have always been notoriously unreliable as well as being expensive. So if it is a blood test I might be dubious about the usefulness of it.
> 
> If it is a test of skin scrapings to test for e.g. fungal infections or mites etc, then it would be useful, but I would have thought there'd be an animal testing laboratory nearer to you than Germany and perhaps less expensive?
> 
> EDIT: I know little about keeping a reptile as a pet, but I know all reptiles can carry harmful bacteria on their skin or in their faeces, e.g salmonella, botulism or campylobacter to name a few. A cat would have better resistance to these types of bacteria than a human would, but if Boo had lesions on her skin from a fungal infection, EGC or allergies, I guess in theory the lesions could become infected with bacteria from her close contact with the bearded dragon. But it's probably more likely the bacterial skin infection has been caused by Boo scratching due to itchiness. As I expect you know, small reptiles are the natural prey of cats, but hopefully the bearded dragon is too big to arouse Boo's prey instinct.


Our vet decided she might have EGC because her gums are red and she seems to have granuloma formations around her premolars and molars. But she can't be entirely sure of the diagnosis because we are still waiting for the fungus test. She said Boo might have these granuloma formations because of a severe fungal infection and the bacterial infection as a secondary skin infection. The antibiotics and corticosteroids should sort out her gums and after finishing them I will start the elimination diet depending on the fungal culture. 
Could a cat with bacterial infection give the infection to our other cat because our other cat's culture was also with Pyoderma?
She took culture from their ears and they were negative so no mites. 
I guess the fungal culture will be the most important one for the right diagnosis. If it is negative then the bacterial infection occurred due to scratching from some type of allergy but if it is positive ringworm could be the reason she has the bacterial infection, am I right? 
She loves the lizard and she spends a lot of time around his terrarium, which has special sand for reptiles. When we take the lizard out, she is very happy and purrs to him. So if it turns out it is a possible allergy I should definitely make some more research on allergies to reptiles or their sand.
What do you think about raw feeding? I have found a company that delivers fresh horse meet especially for cats. It is good for allergies and if so do you have any knowledge on how to prepare it for her? Can I do an elimination diet with raw horse meat for 8 weeks or more and then give her new raw protein every three weeks?
Thank you!


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## chillminx

@msnicollen - yes, fungal infections e.g, ringworm, can be highly contagious to other cats in the household and also to humans as well. If your other cat has skin problems same as Boo it seems quite possible there is fungal infection affecting both cats.

I'm glad the test for mites was negative, they can be a nuisance to get rid of sometimes..

Yes, if the test for fungal infection is negative the bacterial skin infection could be the result of scratching caused by itchiness due to allergies.

I assume Boo likes the lizard's terrarium because of the warmth? I doubt she would have an allergy to him, or the sand in his terrarium. But if it were me I would keep Boo out of the terrarium.

Btw, cats do not purr only when they are happy, they also purr when excited, or stressed, or in pain, and to comfort themselves. Perhaps Boo feels a maternal instinct towards the lizard, who knows? Stranger things have happened. 

Whereabouts on the body are most of Boo's skin lesions? And does she have itchy ears?


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## msnicollen

chillminx said:


> @msnicollen - yes, fungal infections e.g, ringworm, can be highly contagious to other cats in the household and also to humans as well. If your other cat has skin problems same as Boo it seems quite possible there is fungal infection affecting both cats.
> 
> I'm glad the test for mites was negative, they can be a nuisance to get rid of sometimes..
> 
> Yes, if the test for fungal infection is negative the bacterial skin infection could be the result of scratching caused by itchiness due to allergies.
> 
> I assume Boo likes the lizard's terrarium because of the warmth? I doubt she would have an allergy to him, or the sand in his terrarium. But if it were me I would keep Boo out of the terrarium.
> 
> Btw, cats do not purr only when they are happy, they also purr when excited, or stressed, or in pain, and to comfort themselves. Perhaps Boo feels a maternal instinct towards the lizard, who knows? Stranger things have happened.
> 
> Whereabouts on the body are most of Boo's skin lesions? And does she have itchy ears?


We are still not sure if there is a fungal infection, we are waiting for the results probably next week. Both of the cats have Pyoderma and the names of the bacterias are streptococci and staphylococcus. So we have antibiotics for both of them and starting treatment today. That is why my question was if one cat can give to the other Pyoderma or they might have been infected with ringworm both and maybe got the bacterial infection as a secondary infection.
Sorry for asking so many questions, I am trying to fully understand the situation.

I think Boo likes the lizard in general. She loves being around him, she loves watching him. Don't get me wrong the terrarium is closed at all times, she just sits next to him and they communicate, it is strange and cute at the same time. When we take the lizard out, she purrs and is very affectionate towards him. You are right it does look like she feels maternal instinct towards him.

She has lesions everywhere on her body( tail, neck, back and even paws). Some are very small, there are one or two lesions, which are bigger. There is particularly one on her neck, which has been a problem for two months now, it peels off and starts to bleed, after that it gets scabby again, after that it goes away for a week and comes back on the same place. I think it is because she is quite itchy right there on that spot. She is mainly itchy around the neck right before her chest. But I have seen her being itchy on the side of the neck or the top of her head and rarely ears. The lesions are just scabby, no boldness, they look like miliary dermatitis. The weird thing is, when another vet two months ago told us that she has ringworm, we started giving her Itraconazole for two weeks with a week break between them. Everything went away, all of the lesions disappeared and two weeks later they came back. But that has been happening since January, they come and go away.

Our vet yesterday did tell us that the Pyoderma infection got very bad with her, my other cat is not so bad but apparently Boo's infection got way down to the first layer of her skin. I am just waiting to see the fungal culture, that would be the final step before having a definite diagnosis.


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## chillminx

@msnicollen - itching on the face, neck, head and ears can be a symptom of food allergies. As can itching on the spine just above the tail and on the lower abdomen. But equally the wounds could be ringworm lesions. So it will be good to have a definite answer from the lab culture tests.

Ringworm can sometimes be hard to get rid of. I remember one case where the owner had to treat her cats for weeks before they were clear of it. Perhaps the treatment of your two needed to be for longer than 2 weeks.


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## msnicollen

chillminx said:


> @msnicollen - itching on the face, neck, head and ears can be a symptom of food allergies. As can itching on the spine just above the tail and on the lower abdomen. But equally the wounds could be ringworm lesions. So it will be good to have a definite answer from the lab culture tests.
> 
> Ringworm can sometimes be hard to get rid of. I remember one case where the owner had to treat her cats for weeks before they were clear of it. Perhaps the treatment of your two needed to be for longer than 2 weeks.


Thank you very much, I will keep you posted. I hope everything is going to be okay!


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## postdreamy

Hey @msnicollen,

I am sorry to bother you in this thread, but couldn't find a way to send a private message to another user.

I have been writing in a different thread on my cat's struggles with allergies and severe itchiness, and when reading your posts I couldn't help but notice that we live in the same country.

If you do not mind, could you please share some details on the veterinarian or the clinic where you performed the tests so far, as we have not had much luck with arranging more elaborate testing.


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## Chloe Riyanna Forbes

I have just found this forum via google and purchased some kangaroo from the OP recommendations.
My 14 year old male cat suddenly developed diarrhoea this time last year. I've had faeces and blood tests. Ultrasound and physical exams. Hypoallergenic and sensitive foods. Created my own food graph to try and figure out what it was and did an elimination diet with rabbit (which made him worse!). He lost and then gained weight and is now a low weight again. It's awful. He seems to have no other symptoms other than extra thirst.

I'm hoping a more exotic meat will somehow make a difference. Fingers crossed!
If this doesn't work I'll be turning to raw/part-cooked home prep.


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## chillminx

Hello @Chloe Riyanna Forbes and welcome 

I'm sorry to hear about your boy's problem.

Do you mean his main symptom is diarrhoea and he also has increased thirst? A cat with chronic diarrhoea will often have increased thirst because they become dehydrated from fluid loss. Also when he is unwell he may be eating less, and therefore compensating by drinking more water.

How often does he have diarrhoea and what treatment has the vet prescribed for the diarrhoea? Has your cat been diagnosed with IBD?

To carry out a scientific elimination diet a _*novel protein meat*_ is required. Novel proteins are e.g. kangaroo, goat, horse, ostrich, and a few more. Kangaroo seems to be the most well liked by cats. Rabbit is not a novel protein for cats and therefore not suitable for an elimination diet.

Once you start the elimination diet with the kangaroo, he must have only that and water to drink. No other foods or liquids.


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## Redpanda

Hi! I’m writing this mostly to say thank you for this thread. And also I need to talk about my kitten’s allergies to someone who’s actually maybe interested...

In early March I brought home a selkirk rex kitten, supposed to have one crooked tooth (so sold as a pet only), but no other issues. She was 14+ weeks then, and at first I figured she was just being fidgety and anxious over the move, and when there was no change in a couple of weeks I began to think I wasn’t good enough cat owner.

At the end of the month she started to shake and scratch her head and was diagnosed with an ear infection in both ears. After that we were visiting the vet weekly, because the symptoms wouldn’t go away even when her ears had healed. From the beginning the vets were mentioning food intoleranses, then reverting to ”but she’s too young to have any”, until I eventually took her to a cat clinic. (Instead of my basic local vet.)

This was early May, and she got tested for everything, and I got instructions to try elimination diet if flea treatment would do nothing. I asked help for choosing the foods from the vet’s food store (the nurses are present, so seemed like a safe option), and started with Hills’ z/d wet food + Specific dry. Unfortunately this lead to scratching getting way worse and as a new issue, my kitten got diarrhea. 

At first I thought it was only the change in her diet, but it slowly dawned on me, that it wasn’t. (I still feel bad about not realizing it faster, because poor kitty!) Spoke with the vet again, and she told me to return to old diet (she had Nutrima kitten foods back then), let the stomach calm down and then try again with something else. Also she said it would be ok to try to eliminate fish and/or chicken one by one with normal cat foods to see if it would be that simple. (This was like a softer option to changing all at once.)

So, basically I’ve spent the summer trying to plan my next move of feeding the cat, and making plan B’s in case my original plan won’t work. 

Vuokko -turning eight months next week- has been on fishless diet, chickenless diet, has had small-ish doses of steroids and at times antihistamine and probiotics to get through the worst, and now I’m eventually at least imagining that there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. 

After finding this thread I settled on trying kangaroo if everything else fails. I’ve had monthly phone consultations with the vet, and I checked this with her, too. She sounded iffy, but said go ahead. (I’m way too scared of Hills’, RC or Trovet after cleaning up diarrhea from the litter tray at midnight for a week.) We’re now 1,5 weeks in on Catz Finefood kangaroo, and Vuokko’s stomach is doing better (not perfect, but better) and her scratching has been minimal (0-4 times a day vs. 12-23 times a day, and yes, I have an Excel sheet) compared to what it was in spring. I’ve been still giving half a tablet of antihistamine (which didn’t even work at the worst phase but now does), because the girl deserves a break. She’s been clearly uncomfortable with the itching, and it breaks my heart to see her like that. It looks like I could cut antihistamine soon without giving her more trouble, and I’ll lengthen the elimination period accordingly.

We’re visiting the vet at the end of this month when Vuokko is getting spayed, and her skin situation will be checked then too. I’m crossing my fingers she’ll continue to feel better, and I no longer need to feel like a bad cat owner. I think the vet is now suspecting both food intoleranse to several proteins and possibly something environmental on top, but oh well.

Thanks for listening, and sorry, this short version of allergy saga became super long!


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## SydeniSass

Hi all, I am so desperate I would little lick the feet of anyone that can help me and my cat with three questions please :Yuck (helpfully asked in bold so you don't have to read the whole post )

Sydney (6) is diagnosed IBD with liver disease, I am really struggling with his diet, and I fear his prognosis is poor if I can't find a way through these problems 

*How I can get prescribed medications into my cat whilst on a dry elimination diet please?* He needs to take two capsules, a one small tablet everyday for his liver disease (Hepaticare, Destolit & Zlykene). I cannot mix the powder into his food as he refuses to eat any novel/mono protein wet diet, and I am unsure if it is safe to attempt to give him the capsules whole due to their size? I keep having to resort to using Webbox Lick treats but this is breaking the diet regimen, and until I find a way to medicate him we cannot really say he has started the diet.
*Which brand did your cat seem to prefer of the hydrolysed dry diet? * I have no choice but to feed a dry hydrolysed diet (see below) so he started on RC hydrolysed hypoallergic, but he is not a fan, and is not eating anywhere near enough to regain any weight.
*Lastly, does anyone know if/where/how I can get hold of one or two cans Hill's Wet ZD?* This only food I have not tried as to be honest, I can't afford to buy the bulk order that it is sold in and then find Sydney won't eat it.

Background if needed: Sydney has been unwell since early May, he is diagnosed IBD (with biopsies) but is relatively symptomless from a gastric perspective. He does have runny eyes intermittently, and a greasy coat, but his main reason he was diagnosed IBD was cholangiohepatitis.
I have struggled to change his diet and he rejects all wet food. I've tried manufactured (MACs Feringa, Catz Finefood) as well as home-cooked venison, duck, Kangeroo, and tried raw. I tried mincing shredding, puree, Chunks, with broth, without broth. The issue is quite severe and I think he is possibly "neophobic", so the wet food option has had to be abandoned as he was losing too much weight and at risk of hepatic lipidosis.


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## SydeniSass

@Redpanda I'm sorry to hear you are having these difficulties, but you are not a qualified cat nutritionist or a vet, so you cannot blame yourself for not being an expert, you are just doing your best, like we all are. I have just posted on this thread about my cat, and like you, I feel I am lost down a dark alley with no torch. Sydney had lost of gastric issues until he was about 2yrs old, he was diagnosed with Clostridium Perfringens, had treatment and got better. Since then he has had a persistent greasy coat, occasional runny eyes and was generally quite aggressive. Other than that, he appeared to be a healthy cat who was just "highly strung", and there were never any alarm bells. He became ill in May, and now I have found out that he has probably always been ill (inflammatory bowel disease - symptomless! allergies and now liver disease), but its taken until he is 6yrs old for it to be known as the cause of his aggressive behaviour and seemingly minor ailments. I have spent some time thinking, why did I not see this? How did I not know that weekly hairball vomits aren't normal? (he's long-haired and you can buy food for the problem, so I thought it was a normal problem for his fur type). But I am a responsible owner, he has always had regular vet checks, I talked about these issues with them regularly, but the vets didn't pick up on anything either. So I'm learning to focus on the here and now, and not look backwards.
You have to know that this is not about "parental failures", it's about accepting that cats (all animals) are complex, and we just have to know that we are all just doing our best - trawling Internet sites researching for them, spending our savings, slaving over hot stoves for them, and all of that effort is because we love them :Cat:Happy


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## SydeniSass

SydeniSass said:


> Hi all, I am so desperate I would little lick the feet of anyone that can help me and my cat with three questions please :Yuck (helpfully asked in bold so you don't have to read the whole post )
> 
> Sydney (6) is diagnosed IBD with liver disease, I am really struggling with his diet, and I fear his prognosis is poor if I can't find a way through these problems
> 
> *How I can get prescribed medications into my cat whilst on a dry elimination diet please?* He needs to take two capsules, a one small tablet everyday for his liver disease (Hepaticare, Destolit & Zlykene). I cannot mix the powder into his food as he refuses to eat any novel/mono protein wet diet, and I am unsure if it is safe to attempt to give him the capsules whole due to their size? I keep having to resort to using Webbox Lick treats but this is breaking the diet regimen, and until I find a way to medicate him we cannot really say he has started the diet.
> *Which brand did your cat seem to prefer of the hydrolysed dry diet? * I have no choice but to feed a dry hydrolysed diet (see below) so he started on RC hydrolysed hypoallergic, but he is not a fan, and is not eating anywhere near enough to regain any weight.
> *Lastly, does anyone know if/where/how I can get hold of one or two cans Hill's Wet ZD?* This only food I have not tried as to be honest, I can't afford to buy the bulk order that it is sold in and then find Sydney won't eat it.
> 
> Background if needed: Sydney has been unwell since early May, he is diagnosed IBD (with biopsies) but is relatively symptomless from a gastric perspective. He does have runny eyes intermittently, and a greasy coat, but his main reason he was diagnosed IBD was cholangiohepatitis.
> I have struggled to change his diet and he rejects all wet food. I've tried manufactured (MACs Feringa, Catz Finefood) as well as home-cooked venison, duck, Kangeroo, and tried raw. I tried mincing shredding, puree, Chunks, with broth, without broth. The issue is quite severe and I think he is possibly "neophobic", so the wet food option has had to be abandoned as he was losing too much weight and at risk of hepatic lipidosis.
> 
> View attachment 445465


_Apologies to anyone that may have already seen a similar post of the IBD forum, but this is now mainly an elimination diet issue and I'm hoping members on this thread may have more experience with these issues._


----------



## chillminx

@SydeniSass

I don't know of anywhere that sells Hills Z/D by the tin. Vets used to stock it in the old days before the internet, but most have stopped now. But if you buy a bulk order of Z/D from a reputable online company such as Animed or Vet UK etc and your cat does not like it, you can send the unused cans back and get a refund. I have done this myself when one of my cats refused to eat a veterinary food the vet had recommended.

If he is refusing to eat wet cat food have you tried him with home cooked meats? You can add a "completer" supplement (e.g. Felini Complete) to it to make it a balanced diet. And you could add the powder from the capsules if it does not taste bitter (he may refuse the food if you add something bitter to it)

You can't pill him straight down the throat with large capsules. You may cause the capsule to get stuck. You can open the capsule and split the powder between 2 smaller capsules and pill him directly with those. Empty gel capsules can be bought from ebay in tubs. Size 3 and size 4 are the best size for cats.

None of my cats with IBD got on with a hydrolised wet diet and I never feed dry food to any of my cats. So I can't advise on that, sorry.

A low fat diet has always been best for my cats with IBD . This would rule out all dry food as it is high in fats.


----------



## chillminx

Hi @Redpanda -

It saddens to me to hear of the young cats and kittens nowadays who have allergies. Food allergies were almost unheard of in cats 20 yrs ago! Certainly in kittens, which is no doubt why your vet initially felt the itching surely could not be due to a food allergy/intolerance.

I have had a lot of cat companions over 50 years, but none ever had food allergies until recently. Now amongst my current 4 cats I have 2 with food allergies causing chronic skin problems. One is being completely managed by diet. The other one is currently on an elimination diet of kangaroo and is doing a lot better as a result.

I am pleased to hear Vuokko is doing well so far on the Catz Fine Food Purrr Kangaroo. That is good news! With my girl it has taken several weeks to see a real improvement.

What proteins do you plan to add in (one at a time) at the end of the 8 - 10 weeks on the kangaroo diet? I plan to start adding lamb for starters.


----------



## Redpanda

SydeniSass said:


> @Redpanda I'm sorry to hear you are having these difficulties, but you are not a qualified cat nutritionist or a vet, so you cannot blame yourself for not being an expert, you are just doing your best, like we all are. I have just posted on this thread about my cat, and like you, I feel I am lost down a dark alley with no torch. Sydney had lost of gastric issues until he was about 2yrs old, he was diagnosed with Clostridium Perfringens, had treatment and got better. Since then he has had a persistent greasy coat, occasional runny eyes and was generally quite aggressive. Other than that, he appeared to be a healthy cat who was just "highly strung", and there were never any alarm bells. He became ill in May, and now I have found out that he has probably always been ill (inflammatory bowel disease - symptomless! allergies and now liver disease), but its taken until he is 6yrs old for it to be known as the cause of his aggressive behaviour and seemingly minor ailments. I have spent some time thinking, why did I not see this? How did I not know that weekly hairball vomits aren't normal? (he's long-haired and you can buy food for the problem, so I thought it was a normal problem for his fur type). But I am a responsible owner, he has always had regular vet checks, I talked about these issues with them regularly, but the vets didn't pick up on anything either. So I'm learning to focus on the here and now, and not look backwards.
> You have to know that this is not about "parental failures", it's about accepting that cats (all animals) are complex, and we just have to know that we are all just doing our best - trawling Internet sites researching for them, spending our savings, slaving over hot stoves for them, and all of that effort is because we love them :Cat:Happy


Awww, thanks for this.

And also, good luck with sorting out Sidney!


----------



## Redpanda

chillminx said:


> Hi @Redpanda -
> 
> It saddens to me to hear of the young cats and kittens nowadays who have allergies. Food allergies were almost unheard of in cats 20 yrs ago! Certainly in kittens, which is no doubt why your vet initially felt the itching surely could not be due to a food allergy/intolerance.
> 
> I have had a lot of cat companions over the many years I have had cats, but none ever had food allergies until recently. Now amongst my current 4 cats I have 2 with food allergies causing chronic skin problems. One is being completely managed by diet. The other one is currently on an elimination diet of kangaroo and is doing a lot better as a result.
> 
> I am pleased to hear Vuokko is doing well so far on the Catz Fine Food Purrr Kangaroo. That is good news! With my girl it has taken several weeks to see a real improvement.
> 
> What proteins do you plan to add in (one at a time) at the end of the 8 - 10 weeks on the kangaroo diet? I plan to start adding lamb for starters.


Yeah, it would make sense that most vets just have the idea that kittens can't have allergies. I've also been discussing this with the breeder, and absolutely none of her cats have had allergies before. She's been researching Vuokko's parents family history too, and at the moment the only hint of anything similar is siblings from father's side having sensitive tummies.

Can I ask you, how do you manage several allergics in the same household? I'm thinking of (possibly in the distant future) of getting another cat, and it sounds a bit complex to handle diet-wise.

If we get Vuokko's symptoms under control with kangaroo, I'm thinking of trying venison or lamb first. Venison she hasn't had, but the breeder said she might have had lamb. Pork seems to cause stomach issues*, and chicken is almost certainly one of the culprits. And I thought I'd also discuss the order with the vet when we go there on Thursday.

*Related to this, I could kick myself: today I found out that the multivitamine tablets the breeder recommended have pork based gelatine in them, and I'm not sure anymore that the synthetic fish aroma is synthetic. This information really wasn't easy to find.


----------



## chillminx

I sympathise with you about the vitamin supplements having hidden ingredients.  I had a similar experience and had to email the makers to get a comprehensive list. Like you I found that one make has pork gelatine in it, and my girl is allergic to pork.

Before I started her on the kangaroo for 8 weeks I was using Felini Complete as a supplement for plain meat. It's the only supplement I could find made from synthetic vitamins. (non-animal, non-vegetable) I am not sure whether it suited her completely. At present she is not having a supplement, which is Ok for the 8 weeks, but I will need to add one once she has finished the diet. I may need to research and add each vitamin individually.

Re-introducing the usual meat proteins one by one, every 3 weeks after the 8 week diet is an important part of the elimination diet. You may find your cat is not allergic to as many meat proteins as you had thought once her immune system has calmed down on the novel protein. I always advise starting wth the proteins that are statistically less likely to cause an allergic reaction (though this can to some degree vary from one cat to another). The order I go on is venison, lamb, turkey, pork, rabbit, beef, fish, chicken. [Chicken being the most widely reported protein allergy in cats is thus left until last.]


----------



## Redpanda

chillminx said:


> I sympathise with you about the vitamin supplements having hidden ingredients.  I had a similar experience and had to email the makers to get a comprehensive list. Like you I found that one make has pork gelatine in it, and my girl is allergic to pork.
> 
> Before I started her on the kangaroo for 8 weeks I was using Felini Complete as a supplement for plain meat. It's the only supplement I could find made from synthetic vitamins. (non-animal, non-vegetable) I am not sure whether it suited her completely. At present she is not having a supplement, which is Ok for the 8 weeks, but I will need to add one once she has finished the diet. I may need to research and add each vitamin individually.
> 
> Re-introducing the usual meat proteins one by one, every 3 weeks after the 8 week diet is an important part of the elimination diet. You may find your cat is not allergic to as many meat proteins as you had thought once her immune system has calmed down on the novel protein. I always advise starting wth the proteins that are statistically less likely to cause an allergic reaction (though this can to some degree vary from one cat to another). The order I go on is venison, lamb, turkey, pork, rabbit, beef, fish, chicken. [Chicken being the most widely reported protein allergy in cats is thus left until last.]


Thanks for the list! I'll save that for the future. 

I also sent a question to the company making the tablets, only because I want to know if there were one or two possible allergens in it. As said, I've tried eliminating fish once already, and Vuokko didn't really react to that change in any way. She LOVES anything with salmon, so I'm kind of hoping she could have salmon treats at some point again. (Just to see the expression on her face.)


----------



## SydeniSass

Hi @chillminx thanks for the reply, yes I've been there, done that and got 26 identical T-shirts when it comes to wet food - homecooked, raw, manufactured, you name it I've tried it. Flaked, pureed, mashed, pate, puree, chopped... all has failed, probably neophobic the vet thinks. 
Believe me I am not happy about feeding him dry kibble (and Sydney is equally unimpressed), but he is not improving as he should because his dietary intake is so poor, so I've really no choice.


----------



## chillminx

SydeniSass said:


> Hi @chillminx thanks for the reply, yes I've been there, done that and got 26 identical T-shirts when it comes to wet food - homecooked, raw, manufactured, you name it I've tried it. Flaked, pureed, mashed, pate, puree, chopped... all has failed, probably neophobic the vet thinks.
> Believe me I am not happy about feeding him dry kibble (and Sydney is equally unimpressed), but he is not improving as he should because his dietary intake is so poor, so I've really no choice.


As he doesn't like wet or raw and is not very keen on the dry food, how about feeding him a natural prey diet? It wouldn't be cheap I'm afraid, and it may not be sustainable long term because of the cost. Also best if you are not bothered by the sight of the little white mice - they are very pretty! 

https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/category/186-mice-kiezebrink

This was my next dietary plan with my girl if the diet of kangaroo hadn't helped her. But she is doing OK and enjoys the food.


----------



## Redpanda

Something good, something bad for Vuokko this week: in general she's seemed more like a normal kitten again. I've had a hard time getting her to play for a while, but for the past few days she's been much more into running after a ball or stalking feather toys. Also, I cut out the vitamin tablets three days ago (there indeed is pork gelatine, but fish is synthetic), and her poos have been solid since yesterday. (I've been still giving probiotic paste to make sure her tummy calms down. This is something the vet said I could use long term.)

On the other hand I noticed yesterday that she was scratching _a lot _around her chin, and her stomach seemed bloated. And this morning I woke up to her throwing up. This happened for the first time ever ten days ago, and me being now neurotic over everything, I'm worried. The first time it looked like a hairball, now it seemed to be just food.

The only explanation I can think of is over eating/too big portion size. (I haven't seen her eat anything outdoors for example.) Before the first time I had been giving quite a lot of food because she seemed super hungry, and is after all still growing. And this time I also gave some extra the day before yesterday since she was going crazy over me even looking towards the kitchen.

Oh well, I'll try giving small portions mixed with water today. Her appetite seems pretty normal, she went straight from throwing up to begging food, and in any case we're seeing the vet in a couple of days. And I'm really at the point where I can view sleeping in a slightly different position as a worrying sign of _something_. Vuokko is currently leaning on my arm and purring loudly.


----------



## Chloe Riyanna Forbes

chillminx said:


> Hello @Chloe Riyanna Forbes and welcome
> 
> I'm sorry to hear about your boy's problem.
> 
> Do you mean his main symptom is diarrhoea and he also has increased thirst? A cat with chronic diarrhoea will often have increased thirst because they become dehydrated from fluid loss. Also when he is unwell he may be eating less, and therefore compensating by drinking more water.
> 
> How often does he have diarrhoea and what treatment has the vet prescribed for the diarrhoea? Has your cat been diagnosed with IBD?
> 
> To carry out a scientific elimination diet a _*novel protein meat*_ is required. Novel proteins are e.g. kangaroo, goat, horse, ostrich, and a few more. Kangaroo seems to be the most well liked by cats. Rabbit is not a novel protein for cats and therefore not suitable for an elimination diet.
> 
> Once you start the elimination diet with the kangaroo, he must have only that and water to drink. No other foods or liquids.


Oh, it deleted my first reply, so here goes again!

Hi @chillminx, Thank you for your reply and apologies for the delay on my part. I didn't seem to get an alert for your reply and then I was away for a while.

The vet has not diagnosed Coco with anything. His main symptom is diarrhoea with weight loss which he gained and then recently lost again. He has always drank more than my other cats but in the last few months with the warmer weather he has started drinking more than normal. But the vet, each time we went, said he was not dehydrated (of course we havent been able to visit since lockdown).

He has diarrhoea pretty much daily, I have observed a semi solid deposit a handful of times but it ends in diarrhoea each time. Below I will list all we have tried with the vet.
Coco has been having Catz Kangaroo since 17th July, he is not very keen however so I am going to try and find another protein like those mentioned above as a backup. Unfortunately, while I was away I am pretty sure Coco was exposed to and likely ate other food as he had an episode and again had a small one today. So I will have to restart the elimination diet as of 30th July which is when I returned home. I am now thinking of repeating the parasite tests as we did them right at the start in August 2019 and am currently awaiting my vet to allow non-emergency appointments which I think they do as of Monday.


Advocate
Drontal worming
Tritchomonas PCR test (Results: Clear)
Full parasitology screen (direct, salt & concentrate for helminth ova, prozota, prozotal cysts incl giardia, cryptosporidia and amoeba)
Aerobic Culture screen (all bacterial infections incl Salmonella & Campylobacter)
Protexin Pro Kolin
SpecificWet FIW Digestive support feline 
Nisamox tablets
Synnulox Rtu injection
Protexin Pro Kolin enterogenic sachet
Metronidazole Benzoate tablets
Prednicortone tablets
Ultrasounds (Results: Normal)


----------



## chillminx

Hi @Chloe Riyanna Forbes -

At 14 Coco is at the age where cats commonly develop one of the chronic feline diseases of older cats. Could you confirm Coco has been tested recently for Diabetes Mellitus, Hyperthyroid disease and Chronic Kidney Disease and that all results were within normal range ?

If none of the above apply and diarrhoea is his only symptom it does sound like it could be he has a food sensitivity/food intolerance.

If he is not very keen on the kangaroo it is a concern that he may not eat enough food and could continue to lose weight. How is his weight at present ?

Of the other novel proteins, one of my cats [who has allergies] prefers horse-meat to the kangaroo. It is made by Mjamjam, and is sold on Amazon as well as Zoo-bio.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MjAMjAM-Natural-Meaty-Feasts-Exquisite/dp/B0821DR5HP/ref=sr_1_8?crid=1WLWPRZYVBNFX&dchild=1&keywords=mjamjam+cat+horse&qid=1596398104&sprefix=mjamjam+cat+ho,aps,137&sr=8-8

https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/mjamjam/9...elightful-pure-horse-grain-free-food-for-cats


----------



## Chloe Riyanna Forbes

chillminx said:


> Hi @Chloe Riyanna Forbes -
> 
> At 14 Coco is at the age where cats commonly develop one of the chronic feline diseases of older cats. Could you confirm Coco has been tested recently for Diabetes Mellitus, Hyperthyroid disease and Chronic Kidney Disease and that all results were within normal range ?
> 
> If none of the above apply and diarrhoea is his only symptom it does sound like it could be he has a food sensitivity/food intolerance.
> 
> If he is not very keen on the kangaroo it is a concern that he may not eat enough food and could continue to lose weight. How is his weight at present ?
> 
> Of the other novel proteins, one of my cats [who has allergies] prefers horse-meat to the kangaroo. It is made by Mjamjam, and is sold on Amazon as well as Zoo-bio.uk


Hi there, he did have bloods done but it doesn't seem to be a full screen, it says it was only testing for sugar levels.
He is due for a dental on Monday so I will ask for bloods then also.
The MjAMjAM arrived this morning and he seems much more interested and is eating better. I'll update soon, hopefully with the blood results!
Thank you again for your help and advice


----------



## Samuel Whiskers

Hi

Any advice for two first time cat owners would be greatly appreciated! Be warned, this may be a bit lengthy!

We welcomed two rescue kittens into our home a little over a month ago. They're a male and female pair from the same litter and are now approx 15 weeks old.

Ever since we got them, the male, has suffered with vomiting on a fairly regular basis. It usually always consists of both digested and undigested food, but is never immediately after eating. Quite often it can be many hours later.

We've sought advice from both the rehoming centre and the vet numerous times and he has been wormed, rewormed, flea'd, and received an anti-sickness jab on two occasions which worked for a few days before the vomiting returned.

We've tried feeding little and often, a puzzle feeder, we've cut out Whiskas pouches (I now know these aren't the best so have invested in better food from Zoo+), we've separated the kittens when feeding, we've soaked the biscuits (the rehoming centre advised keeping them on the same diet they've always been on, and any changes to diet should be very gradual), we've fed a small meal late at night, and still the vomiting continues. It almost always happens at some point through the night - always a welcome treat to wake up to!

It is worth mentioning that aside from the sickness, he is absolutely fine in himself - playful, mischievous and still eating/drinking/using litter tray; he is not listless or lethargic at all.

About a week and a half ago, I was at my wits' end with worry so of my own accord put him on a strict diet of boiled chicken. The following day, no vomit. Nor the next, or the day after, or the day after that. After speaking with the vet they agreed we might be dealing with some sort of food intolerance/allergy but finding out might be a little more tricky. They advised moving him onto Pro Plan Veterinary food for gastrointestinal problems, which I was initially skeptical of as cereal is listed as one of the ingredients (?!) but we have since bought some of the pouches.

We have tried him on a tiny bit of Animonda Carny with his chicken, which I think may be too rich as he has thrown this up despite it being grain free (or maybe he has an intolerance to beef?); he has had a small amount of Applaws complimentary natual kitten food in chicken flavour (I appreciate this isn't a complete food) and seems to tolerate it. I think the boiled chicken has caused some minor constipation so I gave him a little bit of butternut squash to help him 'go' - that also ended up being thrown up all over my dining room floor!

So now I have a dilemma. Currently we are still feeding him mainly a diet of chicken with a tiny bit of Animonda mixed in (the Animonda only seems to affect him if I increase the amount from say 1tsp to 1tbsp). Today I had a Zoo+ delivery of Pro Plan vets diet for gastro issues (which in hindsight I wish I hadn't bought), James Wellbeloved turkey kitten kibble, Smilla chicken tins and Bozita kitten tetra packs.

He has had a tiny bit of the Pro Plan mixed in with his chicken this afternoon, but I am not sure where to go from here (or to even continue with this!). Obviously we want to get away from the boiled chicken completely and onto a good, complete, kitten food diet, but we also want him to keep his food down! Despite all this, the little guy has thankfully been putting weight on but he is still some way behind his sister.

Luckily for us, the female is a bin and seems to be able to eat anything and everything with no ill-effect, so no food will go to waste! (I must add that any changes to diet will be very gradual and I would never bombard either cat with an array of different foods at the same time). Ideally we want to find a food that both can have, because at present it is proving quite difficult to keep them apart at meal times!

After I wrote the above, I then found this thread...and now I'm wondering if the elimination diet is something I should consider?! I wish the vet had given some better advice! I know the elimination diet consists of a novel protein at stage one, but is it not safe to say he is tolerant of chicken after the vomiting stopped almost immediately after we started him on it?

Thank you for any advice you might have!


----------



## SbanR

Samuel Whiskers said:


> Hi
> 
> Any advice for two first time cat owners would be greatly appreciated! Be warned, this may be a bit lengthy!
> 
> We welcomed two rescue kittens into our home a little over a month ago. They're a male and female pair from the same litter and are now approx 15 weeks old.
> 
> Ever since we got them, the male, has suffered with vomiting on a fairly regular basis. It usually always consists of both digested and undigested food, but is never immediately after eating. Quite often it can be many hours later.
> 
> We've sought advice from both the rehoming centre and the vet numerous times and he has been wormed, rewormed, flea'd, and received an anti-sickness jab on two occasions which worked for a few days before the vomiting returned.
> 
> We've tried feeding little and often, a puzzle feeder, we've cut out Whiskas pouches (I now know these aren't the best so have invested in better food from Zoo+), we've separated the kittens when feeding, we've soaked the biscuits (the rehoming centre advised keeping them on the same diet they've always been on, and any changes to diet should be very gradual), we've fed a small meal late at night, and still the vomiting continues. It almost always happens at some point through the night - always a welcome treat to wake up to!
> 
> It is worth mentioning that aside from the sickness, he is absolutely fine in himself - playful, mischievous and still eating/drinking/using litter tray; he is not listless or lethargic at all.
> 
> About a week and a half ago, I was at my wits' end with worry so of my own accord put him on a strict diet of boiled chicken. The following day, no vomit. Nor the next, or the day after, or the day after that. After speaking with the vet they agreed we might be dealing with some sort of food intolerance/allergy but finding out might be a little more tricky. They advised moving him onto Pro Plan Veterinary food for gastrointestinal problems, which I was initially skeptical of as cereal is listed as one of the ingredients (?!) but we have since bought some of the pouches.
> 
> We have tried him on a tiny bit of Animonda Carny with his chicken, which I think may be too rich as he has thrown this up despite it being grain free (or maybe he has an intolerance to beef?); he has had a small amount of Applaws complimentary natual kitten food in chicken flavour (I appreciate this isn't a complete food) and seems to tolerate it. I think the boiled chicken has caused some minor constipation so I gave him a little bit of butternut squash to help him 'go' - that also ended up being thrown up all over my dining room floor!
> 
> So now I have a dilemma. Currently we are still feeding him mainly a diet of chicken with a tiny bit of Animonda mixed in (the Animonda only seems to affect him if I increase the amount from say 1tsp to 1tbsp). Today I had a Zoo+ delivery of Pro Plan vets diet for gastro issues (which in hindsight I wish I hadn't bought), James Wellbeloved turkey kitten kibble, Smilla chicken tins and Bozita kitten tetra packs.
> 
> He has had a tiny bit of the Pro Plan mixed in with his chicken this afternoon, but I am not sure where to go from here (or to even continue with this!). Obviously we want to get away from the boiled chicken completely and onto a good, complete, kitten food diet, but we also want him to keep his food down! Despite all this, the little guy has thankfully been putting weight on but he is still some way behind his sister.
> 
> Luckily for us, the female is a bin and seems to be able to eat anything and everything with no ill-effect, so no food will go to waste! (I must add that any changes to diet will be very gradual and I would never bombard either cat with an array of different foods at the same time). Ideally we want to find a food that both can have, because at present it is proving quite difficult to keep them apart at meal times!
> 
> After I wrote the above, I then found this thread...and now I'm wondering if the elimination diet is something I should consider?! I wish the vet had given some better advice! I know the elimination diet consists of a novel protein at stage one, but is it not safe to say he is tolerant of chicken after the vomiting stopped almost immediately after we started him on it?
> 
> Thank you for any advice you might have!


Will tag @chillminx for you; she'll be able to guide you through what's best to do


----------



## chillminx

Hello @Samuel Whiskers and welcome 

I am sorry to hear about your kitten's frequent episodes of vomiting. It does sound likely to be a food intolerance.

Statistically it is often specific meat protein that causes the trouble, and/or the grain content. But it can in some cases be an additive such as a thickener, or a flavouring.

However, as kitty has not vomited on a plain home cooked chicken diet it does as you say, suggest he is not intolerant of chicken. So I think you could go start with chicken as the foundation of his diet rather than using a novel protein. Then as time goes on introduce (or re-introduce) other meat proteins slowly and gradually.

As you'll appreciate he can't stay on a diet of just chicken meat, because he needs added vitamins and minerals to ensure he is getting all the nutrients to build strong bones and muscles. As you have noted, he also needs a source of fibre in his diet to prevent constipation. And he needs a source of fat - cats need fats for energy.

I think it is best for now not to make any further changes to his diet. I would postpone introducing the Proplan as it could cause more problems. You can keep him on plain cooked meat (e.g. chicken or turkey) but you need to add a "completer" A good make sold by Zooplus is "Felini Complete" and it is suitable for adding to cooked meat. (not all supplements are suitable for adding to cooked meat).

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/supplements_specialty_cat_food/vitamins/155860

If you leave the skin on the cooked meat when you serve it he will be getting some fat in his diet. Rather than rock the boat by adding grains or veggies to his diet for fibre, I would use a small dose of lactulose liquid laxative at present , to keep his bowels working properly. (Lactulose is marketed for humans but often prescribed by vets for cats who have constipation) You can buy lactulose O.T.C from pharmacies but best not mention it is for your kitten.

I would start with ONE ML of lactulose once a day and see it that is enough to bring one bowel movement a day (i.e formed, firm stools which he is able to pass without straining) 1ml is a small dose - he may need more than that (perhaps 1 ml twice a day) but it is best to start slowly.

Lactulose is generally well tolerated by cats. I am trying to avoid anything that could make him vomit. It is also easy to hide in food as cats do not seem to mind the smell or the taste. (You may have to mince some of his cooked chicken to hide the lactulose in it though).

With regard to the chicken, thighs are better than breast, as they contain more taurine and the meat is more tasty for a cat. The nutrients are better preserved during cooking if you pot-roast the meat instead of boiling it. METHOD as follows: Put chicken thighs in greased oven pan, add about 4 cms of water for stock. Cover pan tightly with kitchen foil, bake on top shelf of oven, Gas Mark 5 for one hour.

Then strain off the juices (stock) into a pyrex bowl or jug and refrigerate for 12 hours so the fat rises to the top and can be skimmed off, saved and used later (perhaps add a tiny bit to his to his meals). You are left with a nutritious jelly, which you add a couple of tablespoonfuls of to his chicken meals so he is getting fluids. The jelly can be warmed in the microwave for 10 seconds to melt it.

Once the vomiting has ceased for a few weeks you could start gradually introducing cat food. I wouldn't feed Animonda Carny to a kitten with a sensitive tummy. It is quite high in offal and not all kittens can tolerate it. It might be wisest to start with a grain free food based on chicken protein or turkey protein,

There are no kitten foods that are guaranteed to contain only one protein such as chicken but some of the good quality adult single protein foods will be Ok for him. (quite often there is no difference in the content of kitten foods and adult foods anyway).

I would try a food such as Miamor Sensitive :

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/miamor/miamor_trays/377490

Maybe start with chicken, then add turkey a few weeks later, and then beef a few weeks after that.

Is it the tinned version of Proplan Delicate you have ? I am not keen on it as it contains "animal by products" which could have come from any animal sold for human consumption. It is better to know the meat protein source. Also the Proplan contains added sugars, which it is not great.

As far as dry food goes I would stop feeding it for now and for the near future. Dry food contains so many different ingredients it is impossible to work out which one may be upsetting your kitten's tummy. Some of my own (past and present) kittens and cats have vomited on even a small amount of dry food, so for the past few years I have not fed any of my cats any dry food at all. They are healthier without it.

Without meaning disrespect to the Rescue from where you adopted the kittens, I suspect your kitty was probably vomiting while he was in the shelter at least sometimes. Speaking from my own experience as a Rescue Volunteer it is not always possible - when you have a number of kittens or cats in the same pen - to know who has produced the vomit, unless one witnesses the cat actually doing so.

Please let us know how you get on.


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## Samuel Whiskers

Thank you for your very detailed response @chillminx ! It is certainly the most helpful advice I've received, I was beginning to lose hope that we might be able to fix the problem and I was destined to a life of cleaning cat vomit every morning :Vomit I can now see a light at the end of the tunnel!

I will start pot roasting the chicken as you say, and save the juice. Can I add some of the stock to the chicken, or just the jelly? I have also ordered some of the supplement you suggested, I was getting worried he wasn't getting all the nutrients he needs so that is very helpful :Shamefullyembarrased

I will also try and get to a pharmacy today to pick up some lactulose - I have had some of this in before when my children were little.

I really can't thank you enough for all your advice. I will make sure I keep you updated as to how we get on.


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## Samuel Whiskers

SbanR said:


> Will tag @chillminx for you; she'll be able to guide you through what's best to do


Thank you so much!


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## chillminx

@Samuel Whiskers - you are most welcome 

You can add the chicken stock to his chicken meals either as a jelly or as liquid (melted in the microwave). I find my cats prefer it as a liquid. About 2 dessertspoons or 2 tablespoons is enough per meal usually, though more can be given if need be. (One does not want any of the lovely stock left in the dish. )

I shall look forward to your update.


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## Chloe Riyanna Forbes

Hello all! I now have some idexx blood results which I will attach. The vet is now suggested hydrolysed food and some pancreatic digestive enzyme capsules.
The results do suggest pancreatitis from what I can see.
Does anyone have experience of this here? I'm going to check out the rest of the forum now.

Update on the food; Coco is still eating but still diarrhoea on MjAMjAM Horse.

cc: @chillminx


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## chillminx

Chloe Riyanna Forbes said:


> Hello all! I now have some idexx blood results which I will attach. The vet is now suggested hydrolysed food and some pancreatic digestive enzyme capsules.
> The results do suggest pancreatitis from what I can see.
> Does anyone have experience of this here? I'm going to check out the rest of the forum now.
> 
> Update on the food; Coco is still eating but still diarrhoea on MjAMjAM Horse.
> 
> cc: @chillminx


Hi Chloe, thank you for the update. It does appear that Coco has pancreatitis, bless him.

By all means give the hydrolised food a try - the only wet food I know of that is hydrolised is Hills Z/D which I have never managed to get a cat to eat (past or present) It has a weird texture which seems to put them off.

There are several makes of hydrolised protein dry food and the vet may recommend one of those. I do not feed any dry food, but if one of my cats were ill with pancreatitis and the hydrolised food would definitely help I would probably try it. But I would be worried as to whether the cat's fluid intake would be enough to hydrate the food and avoid low level chronic dehydration.

As hydrolised food is most generally used for cats with food allergies, you could achieve the same by feeding a bland diet of home cooked meat, with added vitamins and minerals (a "completer" such as Felini Complete from Zooplus). And by feeding a number of small regular meals possibly including at night.

Has Coco tested negative for Diabetes Mellitus?

The pancreatic enzymes are a good idea, for aiding digestion.

I hope Coco feels better soon. x


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## Suzynick

Have moved message to a separate thread


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## Jenbob21

Hello, I am hoping someone can help answer some queries I have on an elimination diet for my little chap Jofra.

We adopted him in June aged 3 with who we believe to be his mum, Zola.

From day 1 Jofra has very loose smelly stools, we initially fed him on Felix which he had in the rescue but have slowly tried to introduce different foods (all wet, no dry) but nothing seems to work for him. The best results we have had are on James Wellbeloved Turkey in Gravy which he is fed now, but still isn't 100%. 
He has been to the vets today and they have given a few weeks course of steroids, the vet said he most likely has food sensitivities (as Zola has always been fine and Jofra is gaining weight after being abit thin when we adopted him) We discussed elimination diets which she said would be great if we had the time to do it and find foods he can tolerate to avoid steroids long term.
I have read the thread and just have a few queries

1. Kangaroo is often suggested as a starting point, but on previous attempts a small amount of 'red' meat causes a worse flare up for him, would kangaroo likely do this too, or as hes never had it is it more likely to be ok?
2,. If he cant tolerate kangaroo, is there a bird equivalent as he does better on chicken and Turkey- maybe ostrich or something?! Also how long do you try before stopping a food-if a small amount causes diarrhoea is that an instant indication it will never agree with him?
3. We have been managing his symptoms by putting him on bland chicken for a few days which seems to work, should we do this before starting a novel diet?
4. Should I wait until he has had the steroid course before introducing a new food to see how they affect him?
5. Will it do Zola any harm to eat the same foods as Jofra on the elimination diet? It is much easier to feed them the same thing and luckily neither are very fussy.
6. His most recent habit is doing his business on the kitchen floor at night very near his tray. There are 4 trays in total, is there any way to discourage this or should it resolve when he feels better? He goes in the same spot every night, but if he ever goes in the day it is always in the tray.

Also worth noting he is currently an indoor cat and according to the rescue centre always has been, so he isn't eating anything else.

Sorry this is very long, they are our first cats and after 4 months (and probably longer) of him suffering I just want to find something that agrees with him!


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## lillytheunicorn

There are better people than me to explain the elimination diet whoever I can possibly help with point 4. 
What litter tray are you using? What is the litter?

Baby started pooping next to the litter tray, we changed from breeders celect that they had been on since kittens to fine clumping clay and bought the jumbo Savic aseo litter tray and instantly she stopped pooping next to the tray.


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## chillminx

@Jenbob21

I expect - as you suggested - Jofra is pooing next to the tray because he has loose stools. This is not uncommon with cats when they have diarrhoea and is because they instinctively do not want to contaminate their litter trays with "abnormal stools". Why he poos in the trays in the daytime I don't know but perhaps it's because he knows the trays are scooped sooner in the daytime when you are around, than at night when you are asleep, So less time in the daytime for the diarrhoea to contaminate the rest of the litter. .

Once you have resolved the loose stools problem he will most probably be happy to poo in the trays every time. Meanwhile, you could put puppy training pads right next to the trays and see if he will use those instead of the floor, while he has loose stools. Pads are quick and easy to dispose of, and it should not be forever, just a temporary thing.

Incidentally if you provide a non-clumping litter and he poos in the trays with loose stools, it is best to throw out the whole tray of litter every time, because to Jofra it will all smell of diarrhoea and could deter him using it again. Soak any trays that have had diarrhoea in them for 10 mins with a solution of bleach and cold water, dry, and refill with fresh litter.

Even with the clumping litter my cats use, I always throw out the whole trayful of litter for hygiene reasons if they have had diarrhoea in it..

To answer your other questions:

1/ As kangaroo is a novel protein for Jofra it is impossible to predict how he may react to it.My two boys with IBD were unable to tolerate kangaroo but my 2 cats who have skin allergies are fine with it. If it is going to agree with Jofra I'd expect some sign of lessening of loose stools within 24 hrs of starting the diet.

2/ Some novel protein cat food alternatives to kangaroo are goat, horse, water buffalo, possibly venison if he has never eaten it. But they may all be to rich for him if he is not good with kangaroo.

Another alternative would be to feed him home cooked meat instead of cat food for the elimination diet. Some examples are alpaca, llama, ostrich (which you mentioned). Alpaca and Llama are more affordable than ostrich.

3/ If you are sure he has never eaten duck before you could try using that, because duck being a water fowl is not in the same family as chicken, turkey, pheasant etc. (though it is the same species as them). My boy who has a severe allergy to chicken is able to eat duck OK.

4/ You could start the diet before the course of steroids has finished, but the results of the diet won't be conclusive while Jofra is on the steroids. And you would need to add the time left on the steroids to the end of the first stage of the elimination diet. So if you started the diet e.g. next week and the steroids have another 3 weeks to go, then you need to add on 3 weeks to the 8 weeks of the diet, making 11 weeks in all.

D'you think Jofra would tolerate eating the same thing, meal after meal for 11 weeks? It is a long time for a cat who is used to variety in their diet. It might be best to delay the start of the elimination diet for 2 or 3 weeks until the steroid course is almost ended.

5/ The same diet will be fine for Zola, if it is cat food. But if you decide to give Jofra home-cooked meat although you can feed Zola the same meat you should add a completer to Zola's food but not to Jofra's. A "completer" is a vitamin & mineral supplement for cats, suitable for adding to cooked or raw meat. it has the RDA of vitamins and minerals for a cat who is not getting them in any other food.

Examples of makes of completer : Felini Complete (from Zooplus) , Purrform Complete Supplement (from Purrforim), Kiezebrink Supplement (from Kiezebrink),

Jofra should not have the completer for the 8 weeks on the elimination diet in case he were to have an allergic response to it. (this can happen and, if it does, it confuses the results of the diet). If you should decide to continue feeding Jofra home cooked meat after the end of the 8 weeks then he would need a completer added. But for 8 weeks an adult cat like Jofra will be Ok without the completer. But you must make sure Jofra does not eat any of Zola's food. (maybe get Zola a microchipped feeder if she does not already have one.)

Btw, am I recalling right that In one of your previous threads you mentioned Jofra has had stool samples tested at the lab for infections, parasites and viruses and the results were all negative? If so, did it include a test for TF (Tritrichomonas Foetus) ? (Apologies if I got this wrong )


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## Jenbob21

@chillminx thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

With regards to the stool samples, no he hasnt had any tests done, the vets seem to think if it was some sort of parasite they would both be affected, and it seems to be different foods that worsen/improve his symptoms so wanted to try the steroids first.

If I was to just feed him homecooked meat, could I just give him chicken and turkey meat for example, or would he need some offal included?

I have been looking at the chip feeders and probably will get one for Zola, am I right in thinking there is a promotion on them somewhere?

I think I will finish his steroids first and see if they have any effect before starting a new diet, as you say 11 weeks would be a long time on 1 food, although hes a greedy little thing I think he would get bored, especially with no treats!

Funnily enough he used his litter tray last night, but the puppy pads are a great idea I will pick some up.

Thanks again, hopefully the steroids manage to sort it, but I will no doubt be back in a few weeks if not


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## chillminx

@Jenbob21 - if you wanted to feed him home-cooked meat, but not a novel protein, it would need a 'completer' added from the start.

The completer is left out of the elimination diet so the cat is eating a 'novel' protein only, a very simple pared-down diet containing nothing the cat has ever eaten before. While it is not ideal for a cat to go without their vitamins & minerals for 8 weeks, in the grand scheme of things it is justifiable on the novel protein diet as a means to identifying food allergies.

But if you will be feeding home-cooked meats which are not novel proteins, there is nothing to be gained in leaving out the vitamin/mineral supplement, and it is definitely better to add it from the start.

If he is fine with chicken he may be OK with the Purrform supplement which has ingredients sourced from chicken. [Note - it is suitable for adding to cooked meat or raw meat - I wrote last year and asked the company]

https://www.purrform.co.uk/product/purrform-complete-supplement-50g/

You can feed him offal too if he likes it, (e.g. chicken hearts/turkey hearts) but it is best not to feed him any liver, when you are adding a completer, because it could make his intake of vitamin A too high.

Yes, there is a current promotional offer on the chipped feeders through Cats Protection. (Ensure you get the chip operated one, not the motion operated one)

https://www.cats.org.uk/shop/other-ways-to-help/surepetcare

The steroids will almost certainly sort out Jofra's diarrhoea, but it may come back again later if you reintroduce his usual cat foods. But on the home cooked diet you are planning, hopefully his bowel will settle down.

The best treats for a cat with a sensitive bowel are the simple freeze-dried pure protein treats made by Thrive, Cosma and HiLife.

https://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/cat/cat-treats?currentPage=1&pageSize=24&orderBy=1&Brand="Thrive"

Good luck, I hope Jofra is better soon. x


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## Amanda Hall

Hi everyone! 

I adopted my boy Klaus in November, he's a 7 year old FIV positive boy. 

About 6 weeks ago he started to get small scabs and became very itchy, scratching and caused a few nasty sores. We managed to get on top of them with betafuse, but he's now started licking himself raw as well. 

Most of the newer sores are on his legs, paws and tummy so betafuse is almost impossible to get onto the newer sores. 

Parasite allergy has been ruled out by the vet and he's now been give apoquel. Steroids are an absolute last resort because of the FIV. In your experience, how long did it take to see a reduction in the itching after your babies starting on apoquel? I know I need to be patient but he often makes himself bleed and it breaks my heart because he's such a sweet boy.

The vet has suggested that it could be a food allergy so in the meantime I'm also moving him onto a novel food diet and hope that in combination with the apoquel we can get him better

I've seen a lot of comments on various threads in the forum about vet concept being good for novel protein diets, but looking at the website, they don't seem to ship to the UK... Any ideas?

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## chillminx

Hello @Amanda Hall and welcome 

I would certainly want to rule out the possibility of a food allergy before I put a cat on Apoquel or long term steroids.

Vet Concept has always shipped to the UK in the past - I have been buying from them myself for years. if they are no longer willing to do so I can only think it may be something to do with Brexit. If so it will be a sad loss to us in the UK.

I will have a look at the website and see if I can work out what is going on and get back to you.


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## chillminx

@Amanda Hall - update. You are right, I could not log in to my Vet Concept account or add anything to my cart.

The UK flag usually in the top right hand corner is no longer there, only the flags for Austria and the Netherlands.

I have just used the contact form on the site to ask the company if we in the UK can still order from them. I will let you know their reply.

Delivery to the UK will now involve extra paperwork for these companies (required by Customs and Excise) now we are outside the EU and I think some European companies just do not want to be bothered.

I am glad I didn't vote for Brexit, I would be kicking myself now if I had! I could foresee things like this happening !:Banghead


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## Amanda Hall

@chillminx thanks for checking that, much appreciated! It will be a shame if that's the case.

I've started Klaus on a single protein rabbit food that I bout from zooplus in the meantime, as I'm also not keen on having him on apoquel.

Hopefully I can find a good 2nd option for when I start to introduce new proteins in a few weeks time.

Do let me know if you hear back from them.


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## chillminx

@Amanda Hall - is that Feringa Rabbit? How is he doing on it?

Rabbit is not strictly regarded as a novel protein for our domestic cats, though it may be better tolerated than some of the more common meat proteins.

But if it suits your boy that will be great news! Keep him on it for 8 weeks.

Bear in mind that while he is on Apoquel his reaction to foods will be affected as his immune system is being suppressed by the drug.

Which makes of food and which meats are you going to move him on to next? if he is OK on the Feringa Pure Menu, maybe keep to those at first.


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## Amanda Hall

Yes, it's Feringa. He's really enjoying it...whilst I was weaning him he would eat the rabbit before his other food. 

He's not been eating it long enough to notice a difference yet, but my hope is that by the time we stop the apoquel in a couple of weeks we will have made some progress with his diet

Yes, rabbit wasn't my first choice, but a lot of the other novel proteins seem to be out of stock at the moment (I suppose that's the impact of brexit!) and I know rabbit wasn't part of his current diet so I'm hoping it's different enough.

Looks like zooplus will have a lot back in stock early Feb according to the website, so I'll hopefully try him on kangaroo or venison. He'd been having 'Blink' pouches before, so I'm avoiding any of the proteins he's been having there (chicken, duck, turkey, tuna, salmon and beef) which rules out most of the other feringa single proteins, so I'm on the lookout for other options. I've also weaned him off his dry food in case of a cereal/grain allergy.


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## Jake Ryan

food allergy causes itching in cat skin also flea and tick is a major cause of skin disorders. Cat evolution provides the solution to Prevent your cat from allergies.


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## chillminx

Jake Ryan said:


> food allergy causes itching in cat skin also flea and tick is a major cause of skin disorders. Cat evolution provides the solution to Prevent your cat from allergies.


Hello  I think you are referring to the product called "Revolution" which treats or prevents fleas, ticks, mites and worms (except for tapeworms). In the UK this product is called "Stronghold".

There are other causes of feline allergies. Icat Care has a good article on "Itching when it's not due to fleas"

https://icatcare.org/advice/the-pruritic-itchy-cat-when-it-is-not-fleas/


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## sandy-cat

Hi @chillminx and everyone, does anyone have a good source of horse or kangaroo at the moment please? None of the German sites will ship at the moment. Amazon has been OK to date but is now out of stock. I've just managed to get Sandy onto an elimination diet of horse and now it looks like I'm going to have to change the protein because I can't find it anywhere  Thanks in advance!


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## chillminx

sandy-cat said:


> Hi @chillminx and everyone, does anyone have a good source of horse or kangaroo at the moment please? None of the German sites will ship at the moment. Amazon has been OK to date but is now out of stock. I've just managed to get Sandy onto an elimination diet of horse and now it looks like I'm going to have to change the protein because I can't find it anywhere  Thanks in advance!


I can only find the 400 gram size atm. But it should keep in the fridge for a couple of days in a plastic box with an airtight lid. And Sandy should get through it in that time I would think?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MjAMjAM-Na...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


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## zubrette

Hi there, I have been reading this thread with interest and following its advice. Our lovely 11 year old Bengal boy, Meriadoc (Merry), was given steroids as he had been over grooming and had very black ear wax and was scratching all the time. Although the vet did not advise an elimination diet we decided to try it after doing some Google searching and coming upon this thread. Merry is now on a 1/4 steroid once a week which I am hoping to stop as his fur is growing back and he is only licking various objects when hungry or wants our attention and has stopped over grooming.

Historically Merry has always had a "delicate stomach" and would throw up frequently since being a kitten. We went from Purina to Royal Canin neutered, then onto Royal Canin Bengal which seemed better for him, he refused anything other than dry food and didn't recognise wet food or raw/cooked food as being food. Only throwing up once or twice a week which we believed to be normal for him. However, when we started on the steroids a different cat emerged, one who didn't throw up. He then started to get all the side effects of the steroids but when we cut them down he went very poorly throwing up for a full day and of course the resulting issues in his litter tray. 

We put him onto the Catz Finefood Purrr kangaroo as we cut the steroids down and he has been great, loved the kangaroo and went crazy when we brought it out. He hasn't been sick in the six weeks on kangaroo and we have now introduced the Catz Finefood Purrrr Chicken which he now refuses to eat after 3 days. We are almost out of kangaroo and I can't find it in stock anywhere in the UK. We are thinking that we should try a different protein as he had no reaction to the chicken at all other than not wanting to eat it.

What protein should we try if he loves the kangaroo or does anyone know where we can get some kangaroo from so that we can keep him on that for the three weeks before introducing a new protein.


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## sandy-cat

chillminx said:


> I can only find the 400 gram size atm. But it should keep in the fridge for a couple of days in a plastic box with an airtight lid. And Sandy should get through it in that time I would think?
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/MjAMjAM-Natural-Meaty-Feasts-Exquisite/dp/B0821D9112/ref=sr_1_34_sspa?crid=3SSK5XNNDAT8R&dchild=1&keywords=mjamjam+cat+food&qid=1612816213&sprefix=mjamjam+,aps,162&sr=8-34-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFDRVNRMjYzREhYRzAmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxMzM2MDQzVkUwWkxGNEJTVlpKJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTEwMDM0MDkzOUlaU1lMOFFTSDIxJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


Thanks Chillminx, unfortunately those are showing as out of stock for me as well. Previously I found the 800grs but they are also out of stock now too! I think it's just Brexit issues unfortunately


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## zubrette

sandy-cat said:


> Thanks Chillminx, unfortunately those are showing as out of stock for me as well. Previously I found the 800grs but they are also out of stock now too! I think it's just Brexit issues unfortunately


Same here, everywhere I have tried it shows as out of stock so I am panicking due to having only 5 tins 200g left.


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## pickledpip

Brexit has a lot to answer for doesn't it! I can't find any kangaroo, venison or horse single protein food anywhere that isn't going to bankrupt me either. We haven't tried them yet but now's the time to start the elimination diet as my 11m/o kitten is seriously suffering again with diarrhea after being better on wainwrights for a month  

If anyone knows where we can get single novel protein & grain free, please link.


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## chillminx

Zooplus had Catz Finefood Purrr Kangaroo in stock recently though they have sold out now.

It is worth asking ZP to email you when it is back in stock. I have done this with other ZP foods recently and it has come back into stock quicker than I'd expected. (i.e. a week or two)

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/catz_finefood/catz_finefood_cans/525027

I see some Mjamjam sellers on Amazon UK are giving an estimate of April for new stock arriving.


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## sandy-cat

There is one horse left of this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07YNYWYF3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have bought some for Sandy, it is mono protein and looks similar to Mjamjam. Still not exactly a long term solution though!


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## chillminx

@sandy-cat - yes, Venandi is a good food, as good as Mjamjam if not better. Many thanks for the link, I have just logged in to Amazon and bought some.


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## zubrette

I am now down to 3 cans of kangaroo and Merry refuses the new protein introduced (chicken), we tried the Thrive Premium Plus Chicken but that gave him the runs. We then tried the Vet Concept Salmon but he doesn't like the consistency and after 2 days he is refusing it. He is certainly a picky eater. We have ordered Feringa veal in the hopes that he will eat something as he is now very very skinny, each vertebrae can be felt as well has his hip bones and he has a noticeable hollow abdomen.

Praying that the veal arrives today and he likes it or we are out of food other than food he won't eat or dry food that gives him the runs.


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## DW2021

I was about to ask if anyone knew where to get single protein Kanagroo but it seems like everyone has the same issues in sourcing it. My hubby says it's because of Brexit and the additional paperwork that needs to be completed when sending animal derivatives. (He works in international dispatch) Hopefully we can all get some soon

So...Wazowski has an allergy, she over grooms which has led to a significant fur loss and now a skin infection. The vet wants to put her on steroids but I'd rather try to source the allergen. I want to go the elimination route but obviously now having issues with finding food. She is currently on Sheba fine flakes (chicken, turkey, duck and poultry) The ingredient list animal derivatives...does anyone know what animal these are from? I've contacted Sheba but they haven't got back to me. I don't know enough about cat food but my thinking is, that if the derivatives are not beef then I could try her on a beef only diet possibly??


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## zubrette

DW2021 said:


> I was about to ask if anyone knew where to get single protein Kanagroo but it seems like everyone has the same issues in sourcing it. My hubby says it's because of Brexit and the additional paperwork that needs to be completed when sending animal derivatives. (He works in international dispatch) Hopefully we can all get some soon
> 
> So...Wazowski has an allergy, she over grooms which has led to a significant fur loss and now a skin infection. The vet wants to put her on steroids but I'd rather try to source the allergen. I want to go the elimination route but obviously now having issues with finding food. She is currently on Sheba fine flakes (chicken, turkey, duck and poultry) The ingredient list animal derivatives...does anyone know what animal these are from? I've contacted Sheba but they haven't got back to me. I don't know enough about cat food but my thinking is, that if the derivatives are not beef then I could try her on a beef only diet possibly??


Hi DW, the lack of kangaroo scuppered our efforts to try and get our lovely Merry onto wet food and off dry kibble and ruined the elimination diet. I see on the zooplus site the kangaroo is showing as coming back into stock possibly in March but I am encouraged that they are trying to obtain in but until they do we will have to put off the elimination diet. Merry overgroomed to the point of having sores on his tummy and the vet put him on steroids which had major side effects with loss of muscle and change in body shape. He collapsed today and we have just heard that he is diabetic and needs to come off the steroids. He is on a drip at the vets rights now and will not be coming home until possibly Thursday.


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## JennyColly

Has anyone had any success at treating idolent ulcers (eosinophilic granuloma complex) with an elimination diet? 

My 5 year old cat developed one on the inside of his upper lip. I took him to the vet, having already worked out myself that it was an idolent ulcer. They insisted it was related to him having gingivitis on his very back tooth gum (adopted, I brush his teeth every day now) and they gave him antibiotics for 2 weeks. As expected, the idolent ulcer got worse and deeper and he also got tiny little scabs in between his paw pads. I took him back to the vets, and they said yes, it is an idolent ulcer like I had thought all along and he is allergic to 'something' but probably food or plastic bowls. 

The vet told me that I should start an elimination diet and only feed him dry food for 6 weeks and then start adding in food to see if he reacts. She recommended Royal Canin Oral dry food which they sell and I bought it, a big bag of it. I now don't think that was the correct decision and it isn't suitable for an elimination diet at ALL by the looks of things? Surely it should be a wet food of one novel protein? She also gave him 2 weeks of steroid tablets which I need to start tapering down once he starts to heal - he has started to heal already after 1 week. 

I also got rid of all plastic bowls, changed my cleaning products to white vinegar mix or Dew, changed my washing liquid to an Eco egg, took any woollen blankets away (my grandmother loves to knit him blankets but the vet said wool could be an allergen for him). 

I've stopped brushing his teeth whilst doing the elimination diet? I feel like I should? I use Virbac enzymatic toothpaste. Do you think this would be bad for him to stop brushing his teeth for this period?

Does anyone have any other ideas of what I can do to help him with this idolent ulcer? It's small at the moment but I don't want it to get worse and then him to be treated with long term steroids if I can help it. 

He has a litter mate brother who has not developed any ulcers and is underweight so I have to additionally feed him wet food in a separate room away from his brother.


----------



## Misty BBSH

Hi everyone,
Very interesting thread, @chillminx you have done some amazing work on this, thank you!
Our Misty has been overgrooming on the lower part of her belly and inside of hind legs. Vet could not find an obvious cause, but suggested it may be a food allergy.
Misty had a steroid injection and vet suggested Purina ha for 6 weeks, before reintroduction of single protein. Prior diet was wet only, latest was Yarrah, chicken and beef. We never had any problems with loose stools. Misty has been a good eater, never turned her nose at any food. My guess is the beef might have triggered the reaction.
Misty has been eating Purina ha for a week now, but started to take longer and longer to eat a decreasing amount of the dry food.
Given the lack of availability of good single protein wet food on the market, I really don't know what our options are, if Misty stops eating the Purina ha food?


----------



## Simmya

Anyone else get an email from zooplus saying they’ll no longer be stocking the catz fine food purrr Nala lives on the kangaroo it’s the only thing she’s not reacted to for over a year I’m hoping that I’ll be able to get it somewhere else eventually .... when companies have stock again! I’m sure I won’t be the only one in this situation.


----------



## Simmya

@chillminx I've came across this brand called zeelandia who make kangaroo and other exotic animal cat food... but I'm not sure if it's the right kind of ingredients that would suit cats who have allergies i can't paste the link as the app thinks I'm spamming

They say they have stockists in the uk so far I've only found them on Amazon and they don't have the kangaroo on there but I've emailed them for some more info 
Sorry to disturb your weekend


----------



## QOTN

Simmya said:


> @chillminx I've came across this brand called zeelandia who make kangaroo and other exotic animal cat food... but I'm not sure if it's the right kind of ingredients that would suit cats who have allergies i can't paste the link as the app thinks I'm spamming
> 
> They say they have stockists in the uk so far I've only found them on Amazon and they don't have the kangaroo on there but I've emailed them for some more info
> Sorry to disturb your weekend


I am very sad to tell you we lost Chillminx (Stef) on 22nd March. I think that is the date. There are tribute threads on Cat Chat. It is difficult to know who could replace her with the huge knowledge she had built up over so many years and so patiently given.


----------



## Simmya

Oh no that’s so sad I’m sorry to hear that ❤ 
Thank you for your reply


----------



## SbanR

Simmya said:


> Anyone else get an email from zooplus saying they'll no longer be stocking the catz fine food purrr Nala lives on the kangaroo it's the only thing she's not reacted to for over a year I'm hoping that I'll be able to get it somewhere else eventually .... when companies have stock again! I'm sure I won't be the only one in this situation.


I have 5 X 200g tins of the Catz kangaroo.
You can have it for £5+£3 carriage ( Royal mail second class).


----------



## SbanR

@Simmya


----------



## Simmya

SbanR said:


> @Simmya


Oh that would be awesome thank you yeah I'm so grateful


----------



## sandy-cat

QOTN said:


> I am very sad to tell you we lost Chillminx (Stef) on 22nd March. I think that is the date. There are tribute threads on Cat Chat. It is difficult to know who could replace her with the huge knowledge she had built up over so many years and so patiently given.


Utterly broken-hearted by this. She gave so much and was so kind and wise. I'm so sorry and so sad.


----------



## sandy-cat

Simmya said:


> Anyone else get an email from zooplus saying they'll no longer be stocking the catz fine food purrr Nala lives on the kangaroo it's the only thing she's not reacted to for over a year I'm hoping that I'll be able to get it somewhere else eventually .... when companies have stock again! I'm sure I won't be the only one in this situation.


Amazon have until recently stocked Mjamjam kangaroo. I'm keeping an eye on the stock levels. If I see any I will let you know. Very frustratingly a lot of the good single protein foods are European and it does seem as though Brexit has affected this. I suspect that the more of us that ask Amazon to stock it in the UK, the better our chances.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MjAMjAM-Enjoy-Pure-Delicate-Kangaroo/dp/B07D4T1Q8Q
https://www.amazon.co.uk/MjAMjAM-Qu...M383/ref=dp_prsubs_3?pd_rd_i=B07D4TM383&psc=1


----------



## sandy-cat

I've fed Sandy every single protein diet under the sun. If I can help, I will. I owe that to chillminx.


----------



## sandy-cat

As an alternative, Venandi is availbile via Amazon in horse which is often a novel protein for cats https://www.amazon.co.uk/Venandi-Animal-Fresh-Natural-330246

If you like I can send you a 200g tin in the post.


----------



## Dalziel

chillminx said:


> The only way to get reliable results is to use a novel protein. The diet must also be dairy free and grain free (which includes no rice).
> 
> I think it is useful to rule out other possible environmental allergens in the home that could affect skin and ears. e.g.
> 
> 1/ use only non-bio unscented laundry liquid for your own bedding and the cat's bedding. (Tesco sells Surcare, Boots and Waitrose sell their own makes).
> 
> 2/ do not use fabric softener
> 
> 3/ use no chemical cleaners on worktops and hard floors. Instead use a weak solution of white vinegar, cooled boiled water and lemon juice or strips of lemon peel soaked in the vinegar.
> 
> 4/ use no plug-in scent diffusers, scented candles, room spray or hair spray.
> 
> The choice of novel protein foods is as follows:-
> 
> 1/ *Kangaroo *- by Catz Finefood Purrr either from Zooplus UK or from Zoo-bio.co.uk
> 
> https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/catz_finefood/catz_finefood_cans/525027
> 
> https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/catz-finefood/14440-purrrr-no-107-kangaroo-canned
> 
> 2/ G*oat or horse -* from Vet Concept
> 
> https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/katzenmenü-ziege
> 
> https://www.vet-concept.com/für-die-katze/nassnahrung/katzenmenünbsp;sana-pferd
> 
> 3/ *Ropocat, kangaroo, venison or horse *- from Fuettern-mit-spass in Germany
> 
> https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/ropocat/
> 
> (please note minimum delivery charge to the UK).
> 
> 4/ *Mjamjam, horse or kangaroo - *from Fuettern-mit-spass
> 
> https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/mjamjam/
> 
> (please note minimum delivery charge to the UK)
> 
> 5/ *Mjamjam, horse with pumpkin - *from Zoo-bio UK
> 
> https://www.zoo-bio.co.uk/mjamjam/61387-tasty-horse-with-steamed-pumpkin
> 
> Choose just one of these novel protein foods (kangaroo is often well liked by cats ) and feed her that and water for 8 to 10 weeks. Nothing else.
> 
> For stage 2 of the diet, you'll need single protein grain free foods as follows:
> 
> 1/*Single protein Lamb *- Caz Finefood Purrr from Pets Menu UK or Mac's Sensitive Lamb from Zooplus UK
> 
> https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72206.htm
> 
> https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/macs/cans/680988
> 
> 2/ *Single protein Chicken - *Catz Finefood Purrr - from Pets Menu UK, or Granatapet pure chicken from Zooplus UK or Tundra pure chicken from Alltails UK
> 
> https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72186.htm
> 
> https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/granatapet/wet/507806
> 
> https://alltails.co.uk/cat/cat-food/Wet-Cat-Food/Tundra-Cat-Chicken-Pure-6-200g
> 
> 3/ *Single protein fish (salmon) - *Catz Finefood Purrr - Pets Menu UK
> 
> https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72191.htm
> 
> 4/ *Single Protein Pork - *Catz Finefood Purrr - Pets Menu UK
> 
> https://www.pets-menu.co.uk/shop/cat/wet-food-for-cats/catz-finefood/p-72201.htm
> 
> 5/ * Animonda Vom Feinsten for neutered cats Pure Turkey trays
> *
> https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/animonda/trays/523945
> 
> 6/ *Single protein beef (veal) - * Granatapet Pure Veal from Zooplus UK
> 
> https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/granatapet/wet/507806
> 
> 7/*Single protein foods also by Ropocat and Mjamjam - *from Fuettern-mit-spass
> 
> https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/ropocat/
> 
> https://www.fuettern-mit-spass.de/katzenfutter/nassfutter/mjamjam/
> 
> Each food is reintroduced to challenge the immune system, one at a time every 3 weeks. A daily detailed log of symptoms is kept.
> 
> As beef, chicken and fish are statistically the most common feline food allergens I would leave those 3 last to reintroduce.


Hello, I have been reading your guide above however I am struggling to source Catz kangaroo from anywhere. Do you recommend any other websites I can purchase from within the UK? Thanks


----------



## sandy-cat

Dalziel said:


> Hello, I have been reading your guide above however I am struggling to source Catz kangaroo from anywhere. Do you recommend any other websites I can purchase from within the UK? Thanks


As explained above, chillminx has very sadly passed away. 

At the moment it is proving very difficult to source many of the novel protein wet foods in the UK - this seems to be due to Brexit. I have been unable to source kangaroo, but you coudl try another novel protein such as horse perhaps? I have had success ordering Venandi pure horse from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Venandi-Animal-Fresh-Natural-330246/dp/B07YNYWYF3


----------



## Dalziel

sandy-cat said:


> As explained above, chillminx has very sadly passed away.
> 
> At the moment it is proving very difficult to source many of the novel protein wet foods in the UK - this seems to be due to Brexit. I have been unable to source kangaroo, but you coudl try another novel protein such as horse perhaps? I have had success ordering Venandi pure horse from Amazon:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Venandi-Animal-Fresh-Natural-330246/dp/B07YNYWYF3


Oh no, sorry I didn't see the above posts before I posted 

Thank you I will have a look at that


----------



## Simmya

sandy-cat said:


> Amazon have until recently stocked Mjamjam kangaroo. I'm keeping an eye on the stock levels. If I see any I will let you know. Very frustratingly a lot of the good single protein foods are European and it does seem as though Brexit has affected this. I suspect that the more of us that ask Amazon to stock it in the UK, the better our chances.
> 
> Oh thanks I didn't know that I'll keep an eye on it! I've got the hour
> 
> 
> sandy-cat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon have until recently stocked Mjamjam kangaroo. I'm keeping an eye on the stock levels. If I see any I will let you know. Very frustratingly a lot of the good single protein foods are European and it does seem as though Brexit has affected this. I suspect that the more of us that ask Amazon to stock it in the UK, the better our chances.
> 
> Oh that's great I didn't know they done kangaroo I'll keep an eye on it thanks, I've got some of the venandi horse and she loves that ... but it's a bit pricey! The feringa from zooplus seems to be ok too so far!
Click to expand...


----------



## Linz27

I'm looking for some advice please. I have 6 cats, 1 has had diarrhoea ever since I adopted him, I have tried elimination diets, but the issue I have is that all my cats have access to a small amount of dry food overnight to stop them waking me up. This can't change as it has been a routine for 7 years, and I cannot close the door or they cry or scratch at it. I have bought Surefeeds for the others, but the cat in question actually scratches my face to get he dry food, so I have to have some kibble handy. Most elimination diets are wet food only, which I wouldn't be able to do, so I have tried him on the dreaded Hills/RC diets but he hated them and refused point blank to eat the RC ones. Is there a single protein food (other than Kattovit as he really didn't like that either) that has a dry equivalent that I can give him a few pieces of kibble at night? I would love to have him on Catz Kangaroo, but cannot find a dry food with Kangaroo as only protein. Any suggestions are most welcome. Thank you.


----------



## Maurey

Wet food is cooked, so it’s safe to leave out overnight in a surepet feeder, imo. If you’re concerned, you can look into getting a timed feeder with a cooling pack, though.


----------



## Linz27

Maurey said:


> Wet food is cooked, so it's safe to leave out overnight in a surepet feeder, imo. If you're concerned, you can look into getting a timed feeder with a cooling pack, though.


Ahh, ok, I actually didn't think about a surefeed for wet food as I am so used to putting it straight in the fridge. Thank you, I'll try that. Lindsey


----------



## Maurey

Linz27 said:


> Ahh, ok, I actually didn't think about a surefeed for wet food as I am so used to putting it straight in the fridge. Thank you, I'll try that. Lindsey


If it gets really warm in your home, you may want to invest in a feeder with a cooling pack, but probably worth seeing if he'll be happy with just the wet food, first.


----------



## Linz27

Maurey said:


> If it gets really warm in your home, you may want to invest in a feeder with a cooling pack, but probably worth seeing if he'll be happy with just the wet food, first.


Yes, my house is ridiculously hot, south facing and so much glass!! My bedroom is also in the loft just to make things worse, so gets ridiculously hot. I'll look at ones with a cooling section. Thank you so much.


----------



## rox666

I am so sorry to read about chillminx, her posts on here were so helpful and factual and this thread in particular really helped me with my NFC kittens who had persistent diarrhoea and who are still on strict diets but doing great.

It's a nightmare getting hold of the specialist foods following our exit from the EU. My kittens are now eating a wider range of foods and no longer will entertain any of the original stuff I started off with, so, if it helps anyone on here, I have some surplus which I would be willing to give away as long as postage costs were covered.

I have roughly:


12 x 400g tins of Catz Finefood Kangaroo - *NOW RESERVED*
Just over 40 x 400g tins of Vet Concept Goat
7 of the 6 pack of 200g Catz Finefood Purr Mixed Variety that Zooplus sell/sold - I found these really useful for trying mine on other meat types - *NOW RESERVED*
Message me if interested.


----------



## Mikironicheese

Hi, for this elimination diet, how do you move between introducing the regular foods in stage 2? I'm guessing we can't just completely change the food..

So if cat was on kangaroo novel diet, then I wanted to go into stage 2 and introduce beef or something, do I do it gradually over few days, then eventually stop giving kangaroo in the 3 weeks you suggested? And then how do we move on to the next regular meat, e.g., turkey?

Thanks!



chillminx said:


> Chronic itching and scratching, particularly on the ears, head, face, or neck, (but elsewhere too, such as the lower part of the spine) can be a sign of a food allergy in a cat, especially when other possible causes (such as a flea allergy or mites) have been ruled out by the vet.
> 
> A cat who is over-grooming, constantly washing themselves, pulling out fur and creating bald patches, may also have a food allergy.
> 
> Food allergies/intolerances can also be a cause of chronic diarrhoea, or frequent episodes of vomiting. Feline chin acne has been linked with food allergies (among other causes).
> 
> The scientific way to get reliable results from an allergy or food intolerance test is to put the cat on an elimination diet for 8 to 10 weeks. Most food allergies and food intolerances in cats are to grains, dairy products or specific meat proteins.
> 
> Stage 1 of the diet is to feed the cat a grain-free "novel" protein. i.e. either kangaroo, or goat or reindeer, or horse, or venison. (suitable foods are available on line). This is done for 8 - 10 weeks, & nothing else given except water.
> 
> Stage 2 of the diet is reintroducing the usual meat proteins one at a time, as a challenge to the immune system, every 3 weeks.e.g. lamb, turkey, pork, chicken, beef, fish. These must be guaranteed single proteins and grain free. (suitable foods are available on line, but not in UK stores) A daily log is kept of symptoms.
> 
> Stage 3 is to exclude the identified allergens from the diet permanently and feed a rotated diet of the remaining proteins (and any of the novel proteins).
> 
> Combined with the special diet as outlined above, Omega 3 is definitely helpful with cases of allergies. I use Aniforte Omega 3 extract for my cats, as it is extracted from white fish and does not smell as strongly as the stuff extracted from salmon. It comes as a loose powder and is easy to add to food. Only a little is needed, and it should be introduced gradually to avoid a loose stool.
> 
> https://www.aniforte.co.uk/collections/cats/products/aniforte-omega-3-extract-100g


----------



## QOTN

If you have fed just Kangaroo for a few weeks with no ill effects, you are probably safe to move on to another novel protein as well. Just add a small amount of the new meat at first and gradually increase the amount if all is well. Try to use only meats not previously eaten until your cat is definitely on an even keel and repeat the process until they are having a reasonably varied diet. 

Most people are so relieved when they have reached this stage they are reluctant to introduce previously eaten meats that may be a trigger but if you want to experiment, just give a very small amount of one suspect meat at a time.

If you are feeding home cooked meat or raw you make yourself, you should not go more than eight weeks without a supplement to make the diet complete so that might have to be one of your introductions.


----------



## Mikironicheese

Thanks! I'm seeing a vet TMR for my cat just to make sure it's nothing else and I've bought some horsemeat as suggested here so should be ready to start this process. Fingers crossed.



QOTN said:


> If you have fed just Kangaroo for a few weeks with no ill effects, you are probably safe to move on to another novel protein as well. Just add a small amount of the new meat at first and gradually increase the amount if all is well. Try to use only meats not previously eaten until your cat is definitely on an even keel and repeat the process until they are having a reasonably varied diet.
> 
> Most people are so relieved when they have reached this stage they are reluctant to introduce previously eaten meats that may be a trigger but if you want to experiment, just give a very small amount of one suspect meat at a time.
> 
> If you are feeding home cooked meat or raw you make yourself, you should not go more than eight weeks without a supplement to make the diet complete so that might have to be one of your introductions.


----------



## zubrette

Linz27 said:


> I'm looking for some advice please. I have 6 cats, 1 has had diarrhoea ever since I adopted him, I have tried elimination diets, but the issue I have is that all my cats have access to a small amount of dry food overnight to stop them waking me up. This can't change as it has been a routine for 7 years, and I cannot close the door or they cry or scratch at it. I have bought Surefeeds for the others, but the cat in question actually scratches my face to get he dry food, so I have to have some kibble handy. Most elimination diets are wet food only, which I wouldn't be able to do, so I have tried him on the dreaded Hills/RC diets but he hated them and refused point blank to eat the RC ones. Is there a single protein food (other than Kattovit as he really didn't like that either) that has a dry equivalent that I can give him a few pieces of kibble at night? I would love to have him on Catz Kangaroo, but cannot find a dry food with Kangaroo as only protein. Any suggestions are most welcome. Thank you.


Royal Canin have a dry food called Anallergenic which the vet put our boy onto which is supposed to have nothing any animal is allergic too. It has worked for us very well and we've had no issues with our boy once we tried it.


----------



## Linz27

zubrette said:


> Royal Canin have a dry food called Anallergenic which the vet put our boy onto which is supposed to have nothing any animal is allergic too. It has worked for us very well and we've had no issues with our boy once we tried it.


Thank you so much, however we tried this and he wouldn't even wat one kibble!!
He is tolerating some Catz Kangeroo at present, however he is still pinching the other cats food when he gets a chance, so not sure elimination will ever work!!


----------



## Simmya

Hey just wondering if anyone has managed to successfully source and kangaroo in the recent months? I can’t find anything my cat can tolerate as a replacement
Thanks Simone


----------



## Animalfan

Simmya said:


> Hey just wondering if anyone has managed to successfully source and kangaroo in the recent months? I can't find anything my cat can tolerate as a replacement
> Thanks Simone


I managed to get mjam mjam Kangaroo on amazon, but only 800g tins, I also found horse, don't know whether your kitty can have that but I tried my Roo and he loves it and all seems well atm


----------



## Meg Onyeka

Hi I am new here 
I try to find any advice any help. my cat Mimi she is now about 1,5 year old since this year January I found some scabs around her head I thought maybe she was playing to much with other cats 
But this scabs has been extended more and more and bigger after 1-2 months I went to vet. They find out that can be fleas allergy or any other allergy 
So she got antibiotics and steroids tablet for about 2 weeks. Everything disappeared after antibiotics but when I stop antibiotics this one started coming back even when she still was taking steroids. Went back to vet infection again again antibiotics and other drop for allergy. Antibiotics helped again drops not 
Again the same finished antibiotics the scabs come back. I said to vet maybe is food intolerances she said no definitely no something from air!
I took this case in my hand 
I bought raw meat from rabbit from purr from cost a lot 
Only fish food no chicken no other beef itc
No snacks she unfortunately not eating dry food 
And all the time she is wearing a cap to protect from scratching
It is better now she has got one scabs by ear it is dry but when she is scratching is again blood coming and 2 small scabs on her neck and by cheek but they going and coming back but not as before just little 
She is very chunky BSH cat it is hard to feel them but I know her skin already so I know they is some
I order this kangaroo from mijam I will try . I don’t want feed her all the time with antibiotics or steroids.tThe vet s really not helping I thought they will take samples of the scabs to check what is it nothing just the easiest way out done pills that’s it.
Sorry for the long story I just mow I noticed I am not alone with allergy problem . Thanks again I will update how she is doing with this new food


----------



## Simmya

Animalfan said:


> I managed to get mjam mjam Kangaroo on amazon, but only 800g tins, I also found horse, don't know whether your kitty can have that but I tried my Roo and he loves it and all seems well atm


Thanks that's great! Blimey they're huge tins aren't they … it's not as wet as the fine food purr kangaroo (I'm gutted I can't get that one anymore) but she's eating it thankfully and yes the horse is great! It's just a shame they price it so high (well the venandi brand is £15 for 6 200g tins) 
I'm living in hope that the fine food purr will one day become available again


----------



## Meg Onyeka

Hi cats lovers!!
Unfortunately my cat Mimi refused the kangaroo wet food other cat eating but not she.
I don’t know what to do next? Any ideas


----------



## ZenArcade

Hi folks, we have been struggling with my cat vomiting for a while. We live in Norway and we got hold of this food through the vet which is crazy expensive, but we were pretty desperate so we gave it a go. It's quail (Quaglia) from a pretty good Italian producer called SOLO. Our cat hasn't vomited for a week after months! we are very happy, later we'll try to introduce more single protein food, possibly bought on ZooPlus.

Amazon and Ebay used to sell this i see, maybe you can find it in other stores? hope it helps. Write "Solo Quaglia UK". I cannot post Amazon links strangely.


----------



## ZenArcade

QOTN said:


> I am very sad to tell you we lost Chillminx (Stef) on 22nd March. I think that is the date. There are tribute threads on Cat Chat. It is difficult to know who could replace her with the huge knowledge she had built up over so many years and so patiently given.


This so sad  i learnt so much from her...an amazing and kind cat lover...


----------



## Leanne Davidson

Hello, newbie here! 1 of my cats is a persistant vomiter. She is 5 and has always been smaller than her sister. We think she was the runt of the litter. She has always gone through "phases" of sickness. Only vomiting. No diarrahea or any other changes to her personaility. She is an indoor cat. We have had a heap of tests at the vets and everything has come back negative. The vet isnt very helpful in trying to find the pinpoint of why she is sick. We have tried different foods and nothing seems to work. She is on a boiled chicken only at the moment to see if that helps. Any suggestions would be wonderful?


----------



## TriTri

Leanne Davidson said:


> Hello, newbie here! 1 of my cats is a persistant vomiter. She is 5 and has always been smaller than her sister. We think she was the runt of the litter. She has always gone through "phases" of sickness. Only vomiting. No diarrahea or any other changes to her personaility. She is an indoor cat. We have had a heap of tests at the vets and everything has come back negative. The vet isnt very helpful in trying to find the pinpoint of why she is sick. We have tried different foods and nothing seems to work. She is on a boiled chicken only at the moment to see if that helps. Any suggestions would be wonderful?


Hi @Leanne Davidson and sorry to hear your cat has to keep going through episodes of vomiting. What exact tests have been done, could you check? It could be an infection and some have to be specifically tested for (one test doesn't cover all possibilities). What is she normally fed? How often do you change her diet? Have you checked the portions are correct… each pack should state the quantity fed depending on the weight of your cat. Have they ruled out IBD? It's important for any inflammation to go down, so the chicken will help, if on it for a couple of days, or on white fish for a couple of days, but only if your cat isn't intolerant to chicken or fish. Is your cat stressed over anything? Sometimes a short course of steroids or omeprazole helps to get a cat back on course again.


----------



## KoolK

Hi all,

I am putting Snowy on an elimination diet as she has been vomiting and I was going to buy this novel protein kangaroo food:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B087MLQ...abc_A6D4S65BVRV54B7W2VE0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

But in the description it says to store in fridge for **max 24 hours**. I would need to store in the fridge for at least 3 days, approx 200g/per day.

Why is there a restriction on how long you can keep this food in the fridge?

Also why does it ask that it be served at room temp?

I usually feed her food straight from fridge.

Thank you


----------



## miu

Hello again,

Thank you for this list of foods. We have just found out they’ve discontinued our cats staple food - Country Hunter Duck & Pheasant and Turkey & Rabbit. Loved them never had any issues - they’ve started a new range with a mix of chicken beef and fish Today I had to buy hydrolysed Hills ZD out of desperation as our food orders didn’t arrive as everywhere is out of stock.

We successfully got our food off hydrolysed chicken and steroids which she was on for years - I was never a fan of this nor grains. You don’t see cats eating rice or bread out in the wild but my vet at the time was none the wiser. 

Our cat got on with Mjam Mjam Beef & Kangaroo initially and got on with them but developed issues with both - I think they kangaroo was probably too rich for her sensitive tum. She has either IBD and/or intolerances - the vets aren’t sure and fish isn’t good for her either - I notice she scratches and has missing fur and sores.
The Mjam Mjam cans weren’t her favourite and I think due to their size they can be quite wasteful.

I bought the Mjam Mjam Turkey Pumpkin pouches but it makes her constipated - any ideas why? 

Going to try some of the foods you’ve suggested. Do you know if any other mixed flavours that might be similar to the Country Hunter or other decent brands that are chicken, grain, rice etc free? 

I loved the Happy Kitty Co - shame they are no more. 

Thanks


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## TriTri

miu said:


> Hello again,
> 
> Thank you for this list of foods. We have just found out they've discontinued our cats staple food - Country Hunter Duck & Pheasant and Turkey & Rabbit. Loved them never had any issues - they've started a new range with a mix of chicken beef and fish Today I had to buy hydrolysed Hills ZD out of desperation as our food orders didn't arrive as everywhere is out of stock.
> 
> We successfully got our food off hydrolysed chicken and steroids which she was on for years - I was never a fan of this nor grains. You don't see cats eating rice or bread out in the wild but my vet at the time was none the wiser.
> 
> Our cat got on with Mjam Mjam Beef & Kangaroo initially and got on with them but developed issues with both - I think they kangaroo was probably too rich for her sensitive tum. She has either IBD and/or intolerances - the vets aren't sure and fish isn't good for her either - I notice she scratches and has missing fur and sores.
> The Mjam Mjam cans weren't her favourite and I think due to their size they can be quite wasteful.
> 
> I bought the Mjam Mjam Turkey Pumpkin pouches but it makes her constipated - any ideas why?
> 
> Going to try some of the foods you've suggested. Do you know if any other mixed flavours that might be similar to the Country Hunter or other decent brands that are chicken, grain, rice etc free?
> 
> I loved the Happy Kitty Co - shame they are no more.
> 
> Thanks


Hi there. 
I see tonight that they have some of The Country Hunter still in stock on Amazon, if that helps? Is this the one…..


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## skin vet UK

Elimination diets can help, but they are really challenging to stick to. What has your vet said. have you tried contacting the online skin vet service? try skinvet dot co dot uk


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## Luluandbud

Hello,

I have spent many hours reading some of the very helpful posts on cats, itchy eyes, possible allergies, elimination diets etc.; heartfelt thanks to all who have shared their knowledge and experience notably @chillminx and @Hobbs2004!

We have decided to join the forum, and post, as we are looking for some further support/ guidance/ reassurance and hopefully some of our journey and experience may help others.

As with a number of people who seem to post, our little girl cat, Lottie, has been suffering for a while now. We have spoken to various vets, tried different approaches and honestly feel both overwhelmed and that we are failing in helping her.

I will give a bit of background and try to keep it as brief as possible, apologies for the long post:

- Lottie is an 11 year old female bengal cross, she is neutered.

- she had an eye ulcer back in 2016 which at the time we thought was due to fighting with her brother however now, looking back, think it may have been self inflicted. She saw an ophthalmologist at the time but was never tested for herpes.

- fast forward about 4-5 years, to about 6-9 months ago and she is extremely itchy, in particular around her eyes. It is so much so that when she touches her eyes whilst cleaning them it results in an Intense rubbing/scratching episode. It breaks my heart to write that she has been in a cone for almost 6 months now :-(

- we have seen numerous vets who offer little direction and with little success. We have been given remend, both eye drops and gel, and steroid eye drops, including maxitrol and pred forte.

- after little, although some, success with alternative therapies and a questionable online allergy test based on her hair sample, we pushed to see a dermatologist. He did lots of, very expensive, tests, and drugged her up to the eyeballs with steroids. Firstly she had liquid dexadreson and then prednidale tablets. Although the steroids did noticeably reduce the itching, especially the prednidale, both gave her very loose stools and had to be stopped. This vet did also resolve a long standing ear Infection which no doubt was contributing to the itching. His latest approach suggested was steroids and Royal canin anallergenic food, at the same time, and longer term immunotherapy. The food tests, based on bloods, were inconclusive and the environmental tests, based on bloods and skin, showed some tree species, pollen etc. No skin samples have been completed and she was not tested for anything respiratory, viral or bacterial.

-None of this feels like it addresses the underlying cause and, thanks largely to chillminx's extremely helpful food elimination post and other posts from similar situations, we have embarked on a food elimination trial. We did change her food months ago thinking that this was the cause of the problem however weren't using a novel protein and the foods we did try had too many other ingredients or possible ingredients which may aggravate allergies, notably chickpeas in ziwi peak venison. So, we are now on Mjamjam horse and thankfully Lottie loves it and her stools are good. We are on day 4 and it does feel like she may be scratching less, although I don't know if this is just wishful thinking on my part.

- we did see another, very kind, experienced and understanding vet, the other day who has given us piriton and said to continue with the pred forte and remend eye drops and go back and see her in two weeks.

Overall, Lottie is considerably, considerably, better than she was and is now itching intensely maybe 5-10 times a day compared to what felt like constant scratching. Her coat is lovely, her bloodwork was all OK and her appetite, pee and stools are all good. It does itch intermittently out of seemingly nowhere and it is really a problem when she cleans her eyes as touching them seems to trigger a reaction. I should also note that her third eyelid has been visible on her left eye for some time now. This has happened maybe 4-5 times in total and it has always gone back in. This is the longest period it has remained visible.

So, finally, to my questions, does this sound like it could be food allergies? Do we carry on exclusively with the food elimination trial and wait on the medicines or do we follow the instructions of the vet? It is my understanding that if we try multiple approaches at the same time, we won't know what is working. Although most of the vets seem to turn their noses up at horse, I really want to give it the best shot I can.

Any help/advice would be deeply appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read our post.


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## HappyMangle

How is Lottie these days?
Did you follow vet instructions actually?
I think probiotics is always a good idea if you take a decent brand https://www.cаtfoodpoint.com/best-probiotics-for-cats/. We prefer to give our cats DrFromulas.


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