# Dangerous dogs



## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Hi

I'd like to know peoples opinions on aggressive dogs and breeds that are labelled Dangerous.

I teach dog owners canine communication and do 1-2-1 home consultations.

I made a video to document the progress of an aggressive dog I worked with, he was going to be killed for his behaviour.

YouTube - Amazing dog story

and an update

YouTube - The Last Dream

Now what do you think?


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## 6pack (Apr 5, 2010)

Hi Sam. 

Was looking to see if you had a website or anything that gives more info?
What methods do you use? 
I noticed on the vid you posted about alpha male. Do you not think this a little out dated?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Why is this same thread being re-started in another section?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

this is the third link to these videos that I have found. It is getting boring. There is nothing whatsoever that indicates the dog was aggressive in the first place. Well done for rescuing it but you could walk into any rescue (or even boarding kennels) and find a dog exhibiting that behaviour but as soon as it is out of the kennel it will behave differently.

Not quite sure what you are trying to achieve on here though of course a lot of less experienced owners are oohing and aahing and giving you a good ego boost.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Blitz said:


> this is the third link to these videos that I have found. It is getting boring. There is nothing whatsoever that indicates the dog was aggressive in the first place. Well done for rescuing it but you could walk into any rescue (or even boarding kennels) and find a dog exhibiting that behaviour but as soon as it is out of the kennel it will behave differently.
> 
> Not quite sure what you are trying to achieve on here though of course a lot of less experienced owners are oohing and aahing and giving you a good ego boost.


Hi Blitz

There are acutaually 4 links to these videos. I'm just trying to spread the message that dogs that are aggressive, or acting aggressively don't need to be put to sleep, if someone with the right understanding puts in the time to teach them they can be lovely dogs. I'm just trying to save more like Cerberus. I'm not preaching at you, I know you can do that, but some people don't know it's possible.

You don't see the aggressive behaviour, but he was going to be put to sleep because no one could get in his kennel or get him out. Yes some dogs behave like this and then they're fine when they're out. He was not one of these, it took me 4 days of earning his trust to get in with him and then another 3 days to get him out of the kennel so that I could foster him.

When it comes to ego, I am very confident in my work with dogs. And I am very pleased that people have commented and messaged me about watching the video and seeing what results are possible. But I am not doing it for an ego boost, I am really not like that. I've always known my own skill other wise I wouldn't have been able to help Cerberus. I don't see any of the comments people have left as stroking my ego and I don't think that is what anyone has intended to do.

When it comes to you getting bored with the vids, you can see who starts these threads, if you know this is what I talk about then why do you proceed to read them? I'm just trying to understand why you are leaving these messages on my threads.
You could just ignore them. Or do you have a reason for saying what you say?

What ever the reason for your messages, I am happy to meet up with you and talk about your concerns. My aim joining this forum was to find experts such as yourself to find allies in. We have the same aim in that we want people to understand their dogs and get good information about caring for them. We could be great as support for each other against the fakes out there that are damaging dogs and owners.

If you are interested in meeting me and really finding out who I am then just let me know. Message me on here or send me a private message.

Sam


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> Why is this same thread being re-started in another section?


I started them all on the same day in a few different locations so that people looking at different areas of the forum could find it and have a say.

This one was aimed more towards restricted breeds such as Pit Bull Terriers, Japanese Tosa, the Dogo Argentino, and the Fila Brazileiro.

But I left it open for people to talk about anything they want.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

6pack said:


> Hi Sam.
> 
> Was looking to see if you had a website or anything that gives more info?
> What methods do you use?
> I noticed on the vid you posted about alpha male. Do you not think this a little out dated?


What has labelling him Alpha got to do with being out dated. It's just a term used to describe the leader, or the one who makes the decisions.

My website is in the process of being made.

And my method is to teach owners how to be trusted by their dog to be the one who makes the decisions. Show the dog that certain behaviour will not get attention and other behaviour will. It is very difficult to explain on a forum. Each dog and situation is different and I work with every owner and dog in different ways. But the main point is that it is natural and doesn't use gadgets or force to get results.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Sam Browne said:


> What has labelling him Alpha got to do with being out dated. It's just a term used to describe the leader, or the one who makes the decisions.


I think that the poster meant that the terms 'alpha' and 'leader' commonly refer to research based on the domination theory, wherein studies of captive wolves led people to believe that they operated a hierarchy based on fear and violence. This research was then applied to explain the behaviour of domesticated dogs and has been made popular by the likes of TV personality Cesar Milan.

The research has since been proven many times to have been seriously flawed and if applied mistakenly to dogs, can create much more serious issues than it resolves.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I think that the poster meant that the terms 'alpha' and 'leader' commonly refer to research based on the domination theory, wherein studies of captive wolves led people to believe that they operated a hierarchy based on fear and violence. This research was then applied to explain the behaviour of domesticated dogs and has been made popular by the likes of TV personality Cesar Milan.
> 
> The research has since been proven many times to have been seriously flawed and if applied mistakenly to dogs, can create much more serious issues than it resolves.


Ok I understand.

Some of the techniques Cesar uses are barbaric, such as the prong collar, and pinning dogs down.

To clear up any confusion. I would never use anything like that on a dog. I never use fear or violence. I am strongly against people who bully dogs into submision and they are asking for trouble. I have seen many people get bitten through using these techniques and yes it causes more issues.

I use the completely the opposite, I build trust through showing the dog I am not a threat. I wait as long as it takes for a dog to trust me and trust my desicions, they naturally want to follow people who are calm and confident and that is how I start to build up the relationship.

I believe there is hierachy in any group of animals (and humans) but I don't believe it is based on fear. And if people try to make it about fear then they are heading for a fall.

There is a big difference between fear and respect. I have a lot of respect for animals and I work at building up their respect in me. It takes longer (in some situations) than Cesars way, but it is a relationship built on far stronger foundations and never, never uses fear, pain, discomfort or violence.

Has that cleared up the query about my views?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think it's informative and as for the "alpha" term being out dated - it may be by some but not by other's, the book "The Dogs Mind" having nothing whatever to do with Ceasr Millan is just one of a few.

I wouldn't judge a way of training until i've tried it myself - no prong or eco collars - I hasten to add.
I belong to an American dog forum and the use of prong/eco collars over there is quite normal, so not a CM thing in particular.
Have to add though that he usually uses rope slip collars - it's the owners who use the prongs. Have never actually seen him put one on a dog that doesn't already have one but have seen him remove many and replace with a slip lead.

Well done with your work Sam and take no notice of snide remarks from folk who don't try to help dogs in the way you are.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sam Browne said:


> I'm just trying to spread the message that dogs that are aggressive, or acting aggressively don't need to be
> put to sleep, if someone with the right understanding puts in the time to teach them they can be lovely dogs.
> [snip]... some people don't know it's possible.


sam, behavior-modification has been around for a considerable time. 
the reason most shelters have limited or no interest is in the USA, *liability*. 
if the dog's aggressive behavior is invisible on the video, then we have no BEFORE to compare to the AFTER.

are U affiliated with any professional organizations, or accredited by a 3rd party?

multiple-posts + duplicate-links strikes me as merely an advertising campaign - 
not genuinely soliciting opinions. 
strong doubts, 
--- terry


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Malmum said:


> as for the "alpha" term being out dated - it may be by some but not by other's


The term was introduced from study of captive wolf behaviour, research which has been discredited by better studies of wolves in natural conditions in the wild. Apparently Mummy Wolf & Daddy Wolf would be more accurate, in most packs.

The problem is that people seem to just love the idea, and then perceive excited dogs as "challenging" or perceive willfulness where a dog actually doesn't understand in slightly different situation or increased distractions. They also will tend to draw the wrong conclusions about action to take, if they perceive a puppy as Dominant for example.

If a term is discredited, and not of much practical use applied to dogs (it was describing wolves anyway) then what possible benefit can it have repeating it?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> If a term is discredited, and not of much practical use applied to dogs
> (it was describing wolves anyway) then what possible benefit can... repeating it [have]?


agreed - 
i would specify not just 'repeating' but using it - Alpha is hooey, frankly, and using it raises Qs of competency, 
how much behavioral knowledge the user has, and how old the references are which the speaker relied upon for their general or specific knowledge.

Alpha-wolf has been a discredited term for a minimum of 10-years; 
Alpha-*dog* was always a misnomer + misapplication, and its use does not auger well, IMO. 
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

FINALLY got the $%#@! vid-clip to play after 2 or 3 dozen *internal server error* failures,  arrgh... 
what do i see FIRST? *the on-screen commentary.* 


> why is this dog aggressive?
> because he was the alpha male and saw me as a threat...


IMO? epic fail, right there. *alpha is usually Capitalized, but either way, it's wildly inaccurate.* 
domestic-dogs do not have a linear-hierarchy; end statement.

the dog's body-parl: 
he does not hackle or growl, his ears are airplaned not forward, he only holds eye-contact briefly 
then does a look-away before he drops down + walks off; at 18-secs he is clearly fearful, 
with whale-eyes, dilated pupils, and a slot-mouth; the camera / *person* is WAY too close.

at 22-secs he is defensive; ears are forward, he is trapped in a small area, rt-paw is lifted, 
WEIGHT on his rear [to retreat] and commissure is forward - he barks - the clear message is back-off.

45-secs he is clearly uncertain - mouth closed, pupils normal, body tense, ears out/side slightly, 
tail down, wt on the OFF fore - again ready to flee.

at 1:30 see his tail + rump - his rear is at half-height, mouth slightly open [heat], *tongue retracted*- 
he is still frightened, if he were relaxed his tongue would fall out over his canines. 
his ears are still slightly out, but eyes are soft + gaze indirect - *this is not a challenging dog.* 
IOW he is not "in charge" of anything - *he's scared.*

1:39 he is lying-down after a short eye-to-eye, his body is tight + feet close, nose retracted, poll forward, 
tongue barely over his incisors; he is looking-away. 
1:42 he wants to bolt - pupils are dilated, face has tension-ridges, ears are bolt-upright, WEIGHT 
is pushing-off his near-fore.

2:14 - he is not comfortable; ears are airplaned strongly, head is lowered + tilted away from contact, 
facial-tension obvious, whisker-bed is puckered, body tight, tail down, worry-lines obvious. 


> _he had never had a collar or lead before _


how do U know this - as he was picked-up as a stray?

at 3:25 he appears to have been a juvie-neuter - 
if so, there is no way he was never on a leash or collar.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Please, Terry, what is a juvie-neuter?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Please, Terry, what is a juvie-neuter?


generally under 12-WO, which is often done by a shelter or a rescue; 
there is also *pre-pubertal*, which is over 12-WO but under 20-WO.

juvie-desex leaves the scrotum + prepuce slightly underdeveloped; the testes are not full-size yet, 
and full secondary-sex characters are not established.

*M-dogs are androgenized twice - * 
this is also true of *boys* who are androgenized similarly, their mother secretes androgens 
into the uterine fluid, and the boy's penis develops from a female-default anatomy. 
that's how some human-infants are born with genitalia that are intermediate, having 
characteristics of both M + F.

so M-pups are androgenized in utero, 'bathed' in androgens; then beginning around 12-WO 
the M-pup secretes increasing-testosterone, with a rapid-climb from full-puberty at 6-MO 
to 9-MO, with a blood-testosterone peak around 9 to 10-MO, then *falling* to adult-M levels.

so far as i know, this pattern - rising slowly, then steeply, then *peaking + falling - * 
is unique to M domestic-dogs. *whitetail bucks go thru puberty every year*, which may explain 
why they get so cranky entering the rut - puberty each autumn for life sounds like torture,  to me. 
once was enuf.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

So they have been neutered at under 12 weeks old? How is that even possible? (Please don't answer in detail!!) Sounds pretty awful to me.


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## SarahAvon (Aug 7, 2010)

Is nobody at least pleased that this poor dog was kept from being killed on death row? Isn't that the big picture here?
I for one am glad to see this post, as I have not watched the video before and it actually brought a tear to my eye.
So thank you.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Quite Sarah - anything to discredit someone else's approach if it isn't entirely the same as theirs - sickening eh??


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## SarahAvon (Aug 7, 2010)

Everybody has different approaches but the simple fact is-This dog was going to be PTS and whatever OP did with him worked, and he is now a happy ALIVE pampered pooch. 
And I completely agree with this being posted repeatedly to be viewed by a larger audience for the sake of spreading the word that many "dangerous dogs" are in fact simply misunderstood and with care and dedication can live on and have the happy life they deserve.
Well done.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Whatever works for the dog I say and put predujice aside. 

It's always the same on forums though if you don't go along with the majority you get slated, no matter what the outcome for the dog - who we are all supposed to be caring about and not how the owner has trained it.

Well done too I say and I wonder if others would have achieved the same results..........hmmm!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> [pups + kittens] have been neutered at under 12-WO?
> How is that even possible?


how would it not be '*possible*'?  U really threw me, there! 
testes are in the scrotum by 5-WO in normal pups; these pups are 7 to 12-WO, 
M or F, with an approved adopter waiting for them.

any healthy pup or kitten in a shelter or rescue can be desexed *if the animal is over 2# weight.* 
this is done before releasing them to their adopter - over 40% of all adopters, *even with a signed contract 
stating that they will desex by 6-MO*, fail to desex at all, and their pup or kitten will grow-up 
to contribute to the pet-overpopulation numbers.

desex of pups or kittens before adoption 
* is safer than in older animals - 
S/N is already safe, juvie is even safer than pubertal [5 to 7-MO]
* has fewer complications 
less scarring, fewer infections and other bad after-effects 
* is quickly done [less anaesthesia] 
* the patient bleeds less 
* shortens healing + recovery time
younger animals recover [heal, bounce-back] even faster than pubertal - 
and pubertal animals recover faster than adults.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SarahAvon said:


> Is nobody at least pleased that this poor dog was kept from being killed on death row?


i think saving the dog is GREAT - but i am not thrilled with someone 'selling' pack-theory 
as a salvation technique for [supposedly] aggressive dogs.

the 'certified listener' doesn't carry weight as a credentialing program, either.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SarahAvon said:


> ...This dog was going to be PTS and whatever OP did with him worked...
> he is now a happy ALIVE pampered pooch.
> ...I completely agree with this being posted repeatedly to be viewed by a larger audience
> for the sake of spreading the word that many "dangerous dogs" are in fact simply misunderstood
> and with care and dedication can live on and have the happy life they deserve.


sarah, 
* johnderondon 
* carolineH 
* MerlinsMum 
* colette 
* sequeena 
* raindog 
* moboyd 
*and many, many more PF-uk members have ALL said that dog-aggressive or human-aggressive dogs 
can be rehabilitated - and should be, not simply euthed or dumped in a shelter.*

the difference in this case, is that this poster is 'selling' a particular method of rehab - 
and as 'Alpha-dogs' are a human-constructed myth, it's based on a fallacy. 
whatever other things were done to address the problem behavior, which we never see - 
it wasn't *rearranging the dog's perception of [non-existent] pack-order * that 'cured' the dog.

Cerberus appears to be a Dutch Shepherd-cross, and like BSD-Malinois, they do badly in shelters; 
they are highly stressed by the noise, excitement, constant intruders, lack of exercise, etc, etc. 
they often melt-down in a week or less, and become snappy + erratic.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Yep, you can do a good thing without snake oil and hokum!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

LFL: Sorry to dissapoint you but the OP isn't "selling" anything to me - quite the contrary - she is informing me as to how she helped save the life of a certain dog.
I, like many others, am quite capable of making up my own mind as to how to look after/train my dogs but am always interested to know how others have managed - it's called having an open mind!

As for nuetering/spaying at the ages you do over there - barbaric i'd say and couldn't see it being done here just for a potential adopter - awful! The poor dog is likely to retain puppy behaviour or have stunted growth from what vets here have told me if done before six months, let alone three!



Yep, you can do a good thing without snake oil and hokum!
(Another one of your "theories" eh Rob? lol.)


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I, like many others, am quite capable of making up my own mind as to how to look after/train my dogs but am always interested to know how others have managed - it's called having an open mind!


But it's using old discredited scientific research terminology. That terminology comes with baggage and is misleading.
If the science consensus has changed surely it's unwise to perpetuate the terminology.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> But it's using old discredited scientific research terminology. That terminology comes with baggage and is misleading.
> If the science consensus has changed surely it's unwise to perpetuate the terminology.


If it works for you why knock it? - better than being a sheep and not trying anything for yourself, shouldn't always be a follower!
Nothing unwise in that!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> As for S/N at the ages you do over there -
> barbaric i'd say and couldn't see it being done here just for a potential adopter - awful!
> The poor dog is likely to retain puppy behaviour or have stunted growth from what vets here
> have told me if done before six months, let alone three!


* it is not done FOR the adopter - 
juvie S/N is to prevent the adopted pup or kitten from breeding, 
and promises don't mean squat - *adopters don't comply.*

* there are plenty of studies - and many of these dogs have been among my clients, over the decades. 
they are perfectly normal dogs, with normal DOG behavior - not 'stunted', weird, infantile, etc.

i find it funny that U comment to *rob that he should be open-minded, but slap down any suggestion 
that juvie-S/N could be medically safe, prevent casual breeding, and also not 'warp' dogs. 
*shouldn't always be a follower*, eh? so much for that open mind...  cheers, 
- terry

just in case: a Denver shelter has been doing juvie-desex since 1972. 
there are literally millions upon millions of dogs + cats who have lived-out their lives, 
after juvie-desex; it's not by any means *a brand-new practice*.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Then if you are *that *worried about a potential home don't sell/home the pup or do as I did and keep the pup/s until at least six months and spay/neuter them *before* they leave and go to the new homes. Surely adopters will bring them back for the sugery but then I expect it's too expensive the older they get. Not all dogs adopted here are spayed/neutered before going to new homes but owners usually agree to do so, they wouldn't rescue in the first place if they didn't care about the dog - would they?

I knew this wouldn't go down very well over here and that it could bring many problems later in life. I am surprised it is allowed at all! I know my vet wouldn't do it, they don't really agree with doing it before a first eason but at a push will but only for later health reasons ie; mammory tumors. Males they don't like to do before at least one year and recommend eighteen months, so as the dog reaches maturity and doesn't retain puppy like behaviour.

I searched for this and found lots of sites against neutering/spaying too young in the UK - here is just one of them:
Stan Rawlinson explains the dangers of Spaying and Castration (Neutering) young Dogs

BTW - There's an open mind and a foolish one - I prefer the open whats yours! As for the Denver shelter - they say ignorance is bliss - perhaps so!
Also my *shouldn't alway be a follower* was with regard to training as was my open minded comment. Being open minded doesn't mean you always have to agree on a subject just because someone else does - the whole reasoning between having an open mind!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Then if you are *that *worried about a potential home don't sell/home the pup [to them]...


* the STATISTICS that i mentioned? 
*over 40% of all adopters of pups or kittens under 6-MO fail to S/N,* 
even if they sign a contract guaranteeing that they will; even if they know there will be a fine; 
FINDING the adopter can be impossible, people move; they will claim their pet died, 
they will hide it at a relative's home, etc, etc; taking the animal BACK is virtually impossible. 
taking ppl to court is heinously expensive and wastes ACOs time.

ergo - *desexing before they leave the possession of shelter or rescue* is the only way to be *sure* 
the juvies will be S/N; they are released only after they are reproductively sterile. capisce?


Malmum said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...or do as I did and *keep the pup/s until at least six months [old]*
> and spay/neuter them before they leave and go to the new homes.


surely U jest? :huh: just for giggles, here's ONE shelter in Tidewater-VA, and it is not the largest or the busiest... 
Friends of the Norfolk Animal Care Center in Norfolk Virginia 
that's their *statistics* page - take a look, it's all laid out.

NOTE there's room for *70 dogs - * outside of quarantine. Period. 
in One -peak- Month *July 2009* last year, they received *251 dogs - or puppies.* 
that's only *3.5 times their kennel-space - in 30-days.* 
and U want them to HOLD every pup for 4-extra-months?! :crazy:

in 2009, they received *85.4 dogs per kennel-space* over the year - 
that's *over 16 dogs EverY Day* for 365 days, no holidays, no closed periods, as intake; 
they are not keeping ONE dog or pup, for one millisecond longer than they have to - period. 


Malmum said:


> Surely adopters will bring them back for the sugery but then I expect it's too expensive the older they get.


no, they do not 'bring them back for the surgery' - they disappear + refuse to return phone-calls.

COST is not the problem - there are subsidized + often free S/N programs in most cities; 
"*not getting around to it*" is the problem.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Stan Rawlinson explains the dangers of Spaying and Castration (Neutering) young Dogs


i really appreciated this succinct summary by JDR the other day... 


Johnderondon said:


> If Rawlinson said it was raining I'd go to the window and have a look.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I've never met any of the banned breeds so can't comment on them other than they look lovely.

My mastiff is dog aggressive, labelled dangerous by many people. She's been on the road to recovery for almost a year now


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> My mastiff is dog aggressive, labelled dangerous by many people.
> She's been on the road to recovery for almost a year now


and i would bet, queena, that not once have U towered over her, fixed her with a hard stare, 
and announced, _*"I am the pack-leader - you are not in charge."*_ :lol:

but does she comply most of the time? is she happy to do so? is her behavior toward non-family dogs 
improving? is she a happy dog, who loves to join in activities? [i'd bet 'yes'.]


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> and i would bet, queena, that not once have U towered over her, fixed her with a hard stare,
> and announced, _*"I am the pack-leader - you are not in charge."*_ :lol:
> 
> but does she comply most of the time? is she happy to do so? is her behavior toward non-family dogs
> improving? is she a happy dog, who loves to join in activities? [i'd bet 'yes'.]


Um no, can't say I have. I have pointed my finger at her, don't know why I bother really!

For the most part she does listen, it's only when she's being particularly stubborn that she does what she wants :lol:


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Hello everyone,

Well it seems to have all gone a bit mad, hey? 

Have to laugh, I started this thead to share my experience, hopefully save some lives and make friends.

I didn't join this forum to have petty arguements with people who are trying to twist what I'm doing and try to damage the message I'm sending.

So to all of the people who understand what I'm doing, I hope you enjoy the vids and it's really lovely to meet you all.

I do have one thing to say about a particular post.



leashedForLife said:


> at 3:25 he appears to have been a juvie-neuter -
> if so, there is no way he was never on a leash or collar.


Cerberus is fully intact in this photo, you can see quite clearly. He fathered one litter of pups (Charlie is one of them) and he got the female he was in the kennel with pregnant. I fostered him and took him home intact, I then took him back for nuetering. When the SPCA did the operation he was about 1 year old.

That is the only reply I will make in regards to what LFL has said or will say, no matter how aggressive the response I do not feel the need to explain my method. Everyone can judge for themselves why I'm on here, why I started these threads and why I don't get sucked into these type of arguments.

If you have genuine questions for me then feel free to ask (probably private message is best as some people will try to twist my response). Depending on how this progresses I may not be on the forum for much longer as I don't want to be associated with certain people. I am a friendly person and I am looking for a friendly forum. It is not my aim to be involved in this kind of ridiculous "game" of who knows what and how can you make new comers look bad. I refuse to be a part of that.

Everyone has there own way of doing things and I respect that. My way is gentle and uses no force or bullying behaviour. Dogs need calm, confident and consistant behaviour from their owners and that is what I teach.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

sequeena said:


> I've never met any of the banned breeds so can't comment on them other than they look lovely.
> 
> My mastiff is dog aggressive, labelled dangerous by many people. She's been on the road to recovery for almost a year now


Good luck sequeena  sounds like you are on the right road to getting your lovely dog relaxed and happy around dogs.

My boyfriends dog is a Mastiff mix and I'm working on some of her nervousness with other dogs. Aren't they gorgeous! I just love the way Ruby wrinkles her forehead when she''s listening to me


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## 6pack (Apr 5, 2010)

Well I never expected to come back to all of this :lol:

I question the term 'alpha male' also because to me it brings to mind other terms like 'alpha roll' and such. Both based on wolf terminology that, as previously stated, is wrong and very out dated. 

I wouldn't quote Stan Rawlingson as any proof of point either. :thumbup:

A dog owner must have faith in a trainer, and asking questions is the way to that faith. 
Hence......how are you approaching the dog nervousness problem Sam? 

On the neutering side, the RSPCA here in the UK will also neuter a pup at weeks old rather than months. Am considering neutering my 12 week old pup. 

I noticed the use of ecollars and prong collars were also mentioned, instantly frowned upon as barbaric, ecollars are banned in Wales in the UK, I really hope the rest of the UK does not follow this trend. 
It is after all what is best for the dog.


----------



## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> So they have been neutered at under 12 weeks old? How is that even possible? (Please don't answer in detail!!) Sounds pretty awful to me.


Yeah it is awful. When I left S.Africa my friend who kept Charlie emailed and said Charlie was going in for nuetering, he was 10 weeks old. I tried to stop him from letting it happen as I believe that their hormones are very important to their growth and development. They need to go through puberty so they can become adult dogs with the aid of their hormones. Obviously if you have brother and sister dogs, responsible ownership is needed to separate them when the female has her first season.

Anyway, both dogs have problems with their joints, they are on anti inflamatories all the time. The research I did at the time of nuetering said that the hormones that kick in at puberty, trigger and aid the growth spurt of dogs changing from pups to adults. With out these hormones present they didn't go through this natural stage of life and they have ended up in pain and on drugs for the rest of their lives. Neither parent, or grandmother has these problems.

There is a possibilty that they would have had these problems anyway, and there is no way of prooving it either way. But it is not worth the risk and it makes sense that you need all your hormones for a healthy start to life.



SarahAvon said:


> Is nobody at least pleased that this poor dog was kept from being killed on death row? Isn't that the big picture here?
> I for one am glad to see this post, as I have not watched the video before and it actually brought a tear to my eye.
> So thank you.





Malmum said:


> Quite Sarah - anything to discredit someone else's approach if it isn't entirely the same as theirs - sickening eh??





SarahAvon said:


> Everybody has different approaches but the simple fact is-This dog was going to be PTS and whatever OP did with him worked, and he is now a happy ALIVE pampered pooch.
> And I completely agree with this being posted repeatedly to be viewed by a larger audience for the sake of spreading the word that many "dangerous dogs" are in fact simply misunderstood and with care and dedication can live on and have the happy life they deserve.
> Well done.


Just want to say thanks. And glad you enjoyed the videos


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

6pack said:


> A dog owner must have faith in a trainer, and asking questions is the way to that faith.
> Hence......how are you approaching the dog nervousness problem Sam?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

I thought your two videos were really inspiring Sam, and I definitely teared up watching the second one! It looks like you did a really great thing for that dog, and I love that you're putting the message out loud and clear that there is hope for these types of dogs even when most people have given up on them.

I'm pretty new to a lot of the in-depth theory on dog training and I'm really enjoying learning as much as I can, particularly about how dog behaviourism theory has evolved in recent years. It seems that using the term 'alpha' gets people really riled up (and I can see why in some cases), but watching your videos and reading what you've said, I don't think the amount of negativity directed at you is really necessary or at all proportionate. You saved a dog's life and gave him a loving home from the looks of it, and if you want to make multiple threads to share Cerb's story with a wide readership, I think that's great (and surely part of the purpose of these forums?). I know I personally found your story moving, and I may be a newbie compared to some of the old-hand trainers on here, but I'm very glad you chose to share with us. Reading the barrage of comments on here certainly doesn't show off the forum in its best light. Not a very welcoming atmosphere at all.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion on how best to raise/train/rehabilitate a dog. I don't know how shouting someone down in this way (particularly a new member who comes to the forum simply wanting to share a positive story) is helping anyone...


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Pineapple said:


> I thought your two videos were really inspiring Sam, and I definitely teared up watching the second one! It looks like you did a really great thing for that dog, and I love that you're putting the message out loud and clear that there is hope for these types of dogs even when most people have given up on them.
> 
> I'm pretty new to a lot of the in-depth theory on dog training and I'm really enjoying learning as much as I can, particularly about how dog behaviourism theory has evolved in recent years. It seems that using the term 'alpha' gets people really riled up (and I can see why in some cases), but watching your videos and reading what you've said, I don't think the amount of negativity directed at you is really necessary or at all proportionate. You saved a dog's life and gave him a loving home from the looks of it, and if you want to make multiple threads to share Cerb's story with a wide readership, I think that's great (and surely part of the purpose of these forums?). I know I personally found your story moving, and I may be a newbie compared to some of the old-hand trainers on here, but I'm very glad you chose to share with us. Reading the barrage of comments on here certainly doesn't show off the forum in its best light. Not a very welcoming atmosphere at all.
> 
> Everyone's entitled to their opinion on how best to raise/train/rehabilitate a dog. I don't know how shouting someone down in this way (particularly a new member who comes to the forum simply wanting to share a positive story) is helping anyone...


Yes it is quite shocking that a simple message of hope can be twisted into this. I am not easily intimidated and I believe that when people attack others it is because they see them as a threat, they feel the need to "put down" others in order to make themselves look and feel better. It is very manipulative behaviour and I think everyone can see that from a mile off.

Thanks for your message  The majority continue to see the truth behind the thread, and that is what counts.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I joined a forum called; puppy and dogs - from the good old USA and found prong collars/E collars/electric fencing rife amoungst many users. I only went on there about five times and in the few posts I read - one dog was SHOT by a neighbour and another SHOT in a dog park by an off duty policeman for starting a fight with his dog. On that note i'm not surprised that adopters don't bring dogs back for neutering/spaying and that puppies have to be mutilated before going to such homes.
Cesar Millan also advocates this practice in certain breeds but does understand the risks involved with joint probs later in life.
I rest my case.

Am very glad that you are doing something to help dogs Sam, while others sit on the fence and critisise, while doing nothing!
I could see the dog wasn't neutered and am happy that he didn't have to be before being rehomed. We have many shelters in the UK who do just as good a job as any mentioned by LFL but they still don't have to neuter/spay before re homing - perhaps we are a little more educated and caring dog owners - eh?

Keep up the good work Sam and keep us posted on new projects, there are many who appreciate what you are doing - however you choose to word it.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

*my opinion - hate the label dangerous dog/dangerous breed.... these dogs if everyone remembers rightly were all once puppies innocent puppies!! if a dog is brought up right taught right there wouldnt be a problem!! its the owners not the dogs!! it also peevz me off when in the papers you see an attack on a kid by a rotty or akita but never the ones where a jack russle,collie or a chiuaha (sp?) etc why? branding dogs with a lable should never be done!!*


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

staceydawlz said:


> *my opinion - hate the label dangerous dog/dangerous breed.... these dogs if everyone remembers rightly were all once puppies innocent puppies!! if a dog is brought up right taught right there wouldnt be a problem!! its the owners not the dogs!! it also peevz me off when in the papers you see an attack on a kid by a rotty or akita but never the ones where a jack russle,collie or a chiuaha (sp?) etc why? branding dogs with a lable should never be done!!*


I completely agree, innocent puppies don't turn into aggressive dogs with out a human ruining them. And even then they try so hard to correct their behaviour and learn to trust again. Just like Cerb has done.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I joined a forum called; puppy and dogs - from the good old USA and found prong collars/E collars/electric fencing rife amoungst many users. I only went on there about five times and in the few posts I read - one dog was SHOT by a neighbour and another SHOT in a dog park by an off duty policeman for starting a fight with his dog. On that note i'm not surprised that adopters don't bring dogs back for neutering/spaying and that puppies have to be mutilated before going to such homes.
> Cesar Millan also advocates this practice in certain breeds but does understand the risks involved with joint probs later in life.
> I rest my case.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all your opinions and support of a good thread. I will certainly keep on doing my work and will let you know how Charlie is doing if I get the chance to visit him


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sam, it doesn't matter what forum you join, there will always be some on it who want to start an argument! But I think what we have here is more of a debate kind of thing, as people all want to put their own ideas across. Nobody is criticising, just giving their opinion. Good luck.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Sam, it doesn't matter what forum you join, there will always be some on it who want to start an argument! But I think what we have here is more of a debate kind of thing, as people all want to put their own ideas across. Nobody is criticising, just giving their opinion. Good luck.


Yeah I know what you mean about every forum having argumentative people. Shame as it just shows the persons own weakness and they obviously aren't happy people if they enjoy behaving like that.

I agree that some people are just debating and putting across their own ideas, I think that's great and welcome that. But others are just completely out of line and trying to bully.

That I won't get involved in.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sam Browne said:


> Cerberus is fully intact in this photo, you can see quite clearly.


no, sam - it cannot be clearly seen -  or i would not have said that, would i?

i did not realize any shelter would put intact MS + Fs in the same kennel-run, that's incredibly slipshod, IMO. 
siring pups while in the shelter's custody? unless she was preg before - in which case, she still should not 
be in the same kennel, IMO - good grief. that's very poor management [not YOURS, i realize].
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I joined a forum called; puppy and dogs - from the good old USA and found prong collars/E collars/electric fencing rife amoungst many users.


and how many times, MM, have i posted my strong disapproval of such tools? 
on PF-uk?  the zoning-officials and gated-neighborhood boards who VOTE for 'invisible-fences only' 
are sadly, Not dog-trainers nor dog-savvy; they like the 'look' and have no idea of the effects. 


Malmum said:


> one dog was SHOT... in a dog park by an off duty policeman for starting a fight with his dog.


the dog in that case was not 'fighting', it was rough-play, and the "Federal officer" had HIS dog, 
an adult-GSD, on a leash --- so he could have left, dog in tow. 
having his dog on-leash inside a fenced off-leash dog-park, is very odd in itself. 
the Siberian he shot and killed was a regular who played with dogs of all sizes for 2 years, 
with no prior incidents of a single argument, let alone an actual fight.

i posted it here on PF-uk in this thread - 
USA: violence toward dogs by police, sheriffs, etc. - Pet Forums Community 
there is a petition to sign, if U wish. 
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> ...i'm not surprised that adopters don't bring dogs back for neutering/spaying
> and that puppies have to be mutilated before going to such homes.


desex = mutilate? 
but only when under-6-MO?  interesting concept.

and implying *shooting* dogs is common across the USA? *"such homes" ?*
right - :lol: loads of pet-dogs are shot, across the USA, by their owners. *slight* exaggeration, there.

information on juvenile S/N from veterinarians - 
Early Spay/neuter 
this is from ChromaDane's website - a Great Dane breeder who shows + competes. 
IOW - this source is *not an animal-rights radical who wants to wipe-out 
domestic species, and thinks dog-owners are the equivalent of slave-owners. * :huh:

there is also a VET who breeds Irish Wolfhounds, and offers * free * spay/neuter 
to his puppy-buyers before the pups are picked-up; his letter is at the top of the page. 
from his letter:


> _ I have been actively participating in ESP since 1984 and have performed ESP on approximately
> 1000 animals. We have not noted any negative results, in fact, clients typically report
> these puppies and kittens are the "best we have ever had".
> We have not lost a single animal because of this procedure!
> ...


cheers, 
- terry


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Off thread as usual Terry - so very tiring! 

Read for yourself and be very proud: http://www.dogforums.com/ if doubting the ways of some of your fellow Countrymen!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Off thread as usual Terry


this was the post, MM, to which i responded  


Malmum said:


> I joined a forum called; puppy and dogs - from the good old USA
> and found prong collars/E collars/electric fencing rife amoungst many users.
> I only went on there about five times and in the few posts I read -
> one dog was SHOT by a neighbour
> ...


i think U can readily see what points i replied to? 


Malmum said:


> Read for yourself and be very proud: ... if doubting the ways of some of your fellow Countrymen!


i have posted many times, re the use of chokes, prongs, and shock for any reason or application 
[short of large livestock confinement, and *electric tape* is specifically recommended for equines]. 
even for large-livestock, stout physical-fences are always to be preferred to shock-fences.

as a humane-educator, i am hardly a defender of any eejit who shoots a dog, 
unless that dog is savaging stock, running deer, etc; Why should i join this forum? 
not *what's wrong with it - * what's right with it? 
- terry


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

You know for a man (I presume) you are very petty. 

Will treat your posts with the contempt they deserve and stick to OP's original thread - thank you and good night to you.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

working with reactive dogs - 
who just like Cerberus in video-1, lunge + bark 
YouTube - Barking Episode 4- Barking at Strangers- Dog training

dog : dog aggro - 
YouTube - Common Calming Signals

defensive aggression: bites when groomed 
YouTube - Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog
[with scissors around face]

Why Wolf Behavior & Dominance Theory are Poor Models for Dog Training
Sophia Yin, MS, DVM 
YouTube - Why Wolf Behavior & Dominance Theory are Poor Models for Dog Training

fence-fighting - 
YouTube - The Power Of Premack: Fence Fighting

YouTube - How Dogs Learn: The Science Behind Behavior and Behavior Modification

none of this, BTW, is 'my' material - KIKOPUP + Dr. Yin are both pros in B-Mod.


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## 6pack (Apr 5, 2010)

Sam Browne said:


> 6pack said:
> 
> 
> > A dog owner must have faith in a trainer, and asking questions is the way to that faith.
> ...


----------



## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

What's the need for the attitude of interrogation and antagonism in this thread? Why isn't it enough that the message here is that dangerous dogs _can_ be rehabilitated and enjoy a happy life? This might not be big news to the trainers and experts on here, but for many people reading this thread, I'm sure it's a positive message that's worth being reminded of. It's surely entirely up to Sam how much more detail she wants to go into as to the methods she used with her dog, and if anyone does want more info, she's said they're free to get in touch with her privately. The tone seems noticeably bullying here - it's unnecessary and ugly.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Pineapple said:


> What's the need for the attitude of interrogation and antagonism in this thread? Why isn't it enough that the message here is that dangerous dogs _can_ be rehabilitated and enjoy a happy life? This might not be big news to the trainers and experts on here, but for many people reading this thread, I'm sure it's a positive message that's worth being reminded of. It's surely entirely up to Sam how much more detail she wants to go into as to the methods she used with her dog, and if anyone does want more info, she's said they're free to get in touch with her privately. The tone seems noticeably bullying here - it's unnecessary and ugly.


Here! here! To be honest, having watched the video, it is all there really isn't it? Unfortunately, she could not take film of the dog when it was aggressive, but that doesn't detract from the achievement. The video itself tells us what she actually did.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

6pack said:


> Sam Browne said:
> 
> 
> > 6pack said:
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ...having watched the video, it is all there really isn't it?


:huh: in a word, NM - no. it isn't "all there".

i was surprised by how much wasn't there - like on-camera interaction, shot by somebody else, 
or even from a fixed-tripod POV; there's none whatever, just the camera looking at the dog.

so many people on this forum have said SO OFTEN that aggression in any of its many manifestations, 
*is* addressable and *can* be changed, that anyone who claims they never saw that statement 
must be avoiding the subject - there's no other explanation that i can imagine.

how many PF-uk members have said, *"if we cannot fix this, the dog's gotta go?"* 
in several instances, *those dogs still have homes, because the aggro was addressed - 
successfully - over the Forum by the owner, with on-line support. * 
here is just one: 
our dog just bit my wife in the face! - Pet Forums Community 
also note the dog's aggro was not decreased by 'pack-theory' or 'taking an Alpha position' 
by the owner - the dog's defensive behavior was due to unintended threats from the wife, 
who would kiss, pet or crowd him when he lay in the corner of the sofa, unable to flee, 
or while he slept.

she was just being affectionate - that wasn't the dog's interpretation, and she didn't realize 
that his growls were 'give me distance' signals; she ignored them, and persisted. 
--- terry


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## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

This is crazy! The video doesn't claim to be a 'How To', its intention isn't to direct people, IMO it is a loosely-arranged narrative that talks in vague terms about rehabilitation - its power comes from its general message that rehab for dangerous dogs is possible, and in this dog's case, saved its life.

Why do people on here feel threatened by that? From my reading of this thread, no one's saying that there isn't already great advice on this forum for dangerous dogs, the OP isn't claiming to do it better than everyone else, she's just sharing a video...

I give up! :-O


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> :huh: in a word, NM - no. it isn't "all there".
> 
> i was surprised by how much wasn't there - like on-camera interaction, shot by somebody else,
> or even from a fixed-tripod POV; there's none whatever, just the camera looking at the dog. So what would you have prefered, the dog in the stages of ripping someone's face of??? would that have been more dramatic for you? OH and by the way even i saw the dog was "in tact"
> ...


I am sorry terry but i dont get where you are coming from with your post's? in this thread, the only thing that comes across is for some reason you seem to find sam a threat, why? you are a great trainer in your own right why should someone else be such a threat to you, i have always valued your advice and opinions as i have others on here, who ever and what ever they are. :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pineapple said:


> The video doesn't claim to be a 'How To', its intention isn't to direct people,
> IMO it is a loosely-arranged narrative that talks in vague terms about rehabilitation...


hey, pineapple! :--)

no-one expects the video to be a dissertation or how-to explaining every nuance of B-Mod; 
that would be ridiculous. however, expecting to see both the dog and the trainer on camera, 
in the same field-of-view, is not at all an extreme expectation - and there's not even a 5-second sample 
of the trainer and dog interacting, let alone any B-Mod shown on camera whatever.

we see a scared dog bark and jump on the wire in the shelter; hide just inside the door; 
then look scared inside a pen; then random shots around the yard, etc, "after" the shelter. 
no *people* are shown touching the dog, handling him on leash, walking WITH him on leash, 
petting him, nothing; the shelter-staff who were so impressed by his progress? never shown. 


Pineapple said:


> ...its power comes from its general message that rehab
> for dangerous dogs is possible, and in this dog's case, saved its life.


* he does not look in the least dangerous - frightened, yes.

* many shelters destroy dogs every year who are simply surplus - 
they can be wonderful in every way: already desexed, UTD on vax, housetrained, 
love kids, well-behaved indoors and out, sociable with other dogs, friendly... 
*it does not matter, they are killed.*

that he would be euthed does not mean he was labeled 'dangerous', 
let alone mean that he *actually* was dangerous - only that he'd overstayed his welcome, 
and his cage is needed for somebody else - in the hope that someone will want that dog, 
who takes his former space. it's not personal to the dog; too-many pets, not enuf homes, 
is a problem around the world. 
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

susieborder said:


> So what would you have prefered, the dog in the stages of ripping someone's face of???
> would that have been more dramatic for you?


SB, i did not ask for *dramatic footage of the dog attacking someone - * 
but we don't even see the dog *and trainer* on camera, together - 
or the dog *with any person* from an outside-the-scene POV, even -after- 
he is out of the shelter and has been living in her home for months.

when the dog is on-leash, the person holding the leash [i presume *sam] 
is holding the camera - and of course, invisible.

it's all the viewer looking at the dog; in a compound with other dogs at her home, 
on leash, off leash - no people; no interaction; *no training or B-Mod on camera* at all. 
that's a lot left-out, is all that i am saying - simply that, nothing more.

the Dawg-Wrassler gives us more than enuf of dog-drama with coercion, forcing, fear + flooding, 
IMO; we don't need any more, in fact we could do with a lot less  not that i think he or the suits 
at Natl-Geo channel will be listening to us natter - *sales* matter, and drama sells - 
just like murders sell newspapers, not Boy-Scout awards or 4H-ribbons. 
JMO, 
- terry


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## jomac (Sep 5, 2010)

congratulations sam, a friend of animals should always be thanked and I'm not just paying lip service, there seems to be an element of heirachy on this site sometimes that makes me wonder if my time here is worth while. good work, good luck and your dog is fantastic and has got the most beautiful coat. I am getting a staffy, my priorities are socialising with people and dogs, trainning, exercise and health. :thumbup:


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

I would like to say thank you sam for the wonderful work you have done , i had a tear watching the vidoes they were great , bless you for giving these dogs a second chance , to many are put to sleep if they show the slightest aggression over anything, you have a wonderful dog there lovely to see it , thank you once again for sharing your story , you have uplifed me into trying much harder with my two Gsds who can be dog agressive and are difficult to walk . i look forward to seeing your website in the future . :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

susieborder said:


> I am sorry terry but i dont get where you are coming from with your posts... in this thread...?


i will try to explain as clearly as possible, SB - 


Sam Browne said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> *I never said I would give information over the internet.* I am on here to spread a message about saving dogs.
> 
> ...


* nobody is asking for a detailed log of Ruby's training - 
we all asked for a general outline, *not specific* to one client's dog.

* nobody is asking for tips - 
we asked for methods, mentors, training philosophies, credentials, etc.

* nobody is asking for *vet advice - * 
no-one is prescribing meds, suggesting treatment, or diagnosing illness.

* anne/*tripod gives plenty of tips - 
is she "unprofessional"? is *carolineH*? am i? is *Fun4Fido*? 
we've all given reams of advice, none of it compensated by cash. 
so have plenty of other trainers, all over PF-uk; there are years of tips. 


Sam Browne said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I do realise you don't want advice. Whether or not I'm giving you advice doesn't make a difference,
> *I can't give info on how I'm approaching Ruby on the net...* It has taken over 4 months
> ...


is this 'unprofessional'? 
Dog Training and Behavior Information

_____________________________________________________ 


leashedForLife said:


> how many PF-uk members have said, *"if we cannot fix this, the dog's gotta go?"*
> in several instances, *those dogs still have homes, because the aggro was addressed -
> successfully - over the Forum by the owner, with on-line support. *


*
re the above post, SB replied: 


susieborder said:



TRUE but were has Sam ever said this has not been the case? 
I don't understand your point here? what are you trying to highlight with this statement regarding the OP?

Click to expand...

**sam repeatedly portrays any suggestions for owners, given over the Net, as practically 
criminally irresponsible - like giving vet-Dx, vet-Tx or vet-Rx over the Net, or given by non-DVMs.

i said that real B-Mod has been done successfully, right here on PF-uk - 
*even regarding aggression to humans - * and i am asking if in particular, 
*sam believes that was unprofessional, dangerous, etc.

when many people made suggestions to *sequeena about her Bullmastiff-X and dog-dog aggro, 
was that irresponsible, foolish and pointless? unprofessional?

the ASPCA offers a *virtual behaviorist* resource on-line - 
ASPCA - Virtual Pet Behaviorist 
am i to conclude they are irresponsible and unprofessional, too?

it seems as tho giving any information at all is either 'unprofessional' or too invasive - 
we ask too many questions? but none of them is of a personal nature; they are about methods, 
tools, behavioral science, one's background, etc.

just in case anyone has forgotten - 
i was asked the same questions when i arrived, and the queries were not always friendly, either.  
in fact, quite a few could be characterized as borderline or frankly hostile - but it didn't kill me.

still here, [flings back of palm to forehead, closes eyes, mouth slightly open and anguished expression] - 
scarred, but still here!  
- terry

PS - i threw in the drama for all the bored people who need some visual. 
yer welcome  hope U enjoyed it


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## 6pack (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm with you LfL. 
The vid was posted in several different places over the board, more touting for business than any message on rehabilitating dogs. 
Look what I've done but don't ask, don't question.......don't discuss.:confused1:

He's a lovely dog. All the best. xx


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Who`s winning the widdling contest? I`m losing track....:confused1:


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i will try to explain as clearly as possible, SB -
> 
> * nobody is asking for a detailed log of Ruby's training -
> we all asked for a general outline, *not specific* to one client's dog.
> ...


Well all i have to say is go look at the thread started 31-08-2010, "FREE ADVICE FROM DOG BEHAVIOURIST" read the first reply and then subsequant ones!! what was it sam said? something about not giving advice without seeing dog and owner first!! 
she also states in her opening thread "I started this thread to share my experience, hopefully save some lives (dogs i think) and make friends":lol::lol::lol: well at least she made a few.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Why I don't have much footage, or any of me with Cerb on the videos.

Imagine being a girl aged 23, dog trainer, going to S.Africa alone to help a finacially struggling SPCA. (Not with an organisation, just independantly).You walk into the SPCA and explain that you want to help save dogs with behavioural issues.

You walk round and you find a dog that you instantly fall in love with, but he is very aggressive and has actually chipped two teeth from hitting his mouth on the bars from previous attempts. You stand next to him for 3 hours until he calms down (But you don't have a camera, shame on you!) Then you are told you can't work with him, he's aggressive and due to be put to sleep tomorrow, yes for space but he's first on the death row list becasue of his behaviour (the SPCA keep aggressive dogs for a month as lots of people in S.Africa want scary dogs to guard, but his time was up and couldn't be given to a family). And yeah he got the female pregnant whilst in the same kennel (This is S.Africa! They really do their best but there aren't enough people who understand.)

I talked to them and they let me try with him. I literally had to guard him though. Get there first thing so they couldn't put him down. I took random film of him. I was not there to make a video of it. I did not plan to make this film. I didn't even plan to get a dog. Especially one from S.Africa when I live in England.

But what I did worked and they were surprised it could be done. They didn't have any trainers, behaviourists, or the kind of resources that America and England have, it's a third world country and you have to remember that. When I left they were setting up a volunteer group that would work with dogs the way I did and help more dogs to behave better and get homes. 

The footage I got was as good as I could do, and rememeber that I wasn't doing it to make a video. I was doing it for myself, for me to look back at and watch his body language, when I flew home I would have some pics of him etc...

I couldn't leave him behind and it cost me over £3500 to get him to Engalnd. Money I really didn't have but I love Cerb and his chance of survival was slim if he'd been left behind, so I would find a way. I rehomed his mum and 3 of his pups. But when I left, the other 3 pups and their mum were PTS, it broke my heart and if I'd been there they would not have done it. Everyone there knew I would protect Cerb's family, I would have fostered them until they found homes. (So yes I know full well that perfectly good dogs are PTS for no good reason other than their time is up!)

I got home and immediately arranged for Cerb to fly back too, did every job I was offered to pay for his flight, jabs, quarrantine etc... 

I realised that I had enough footage to show people it was possible and made the video to help more like Cerb and his family. Yes it could be much better and parts of his progress are missing but I don't know how many times I can repeat that I WAS NOT DOING IT TO MAKE A FILM. I WAS NOT DOING IT TO SHOW HOW I WORK. I WAS NOT TRYING TO CREATE A MASRERPIECE TO WIN AWARDS. It's raw work, with nothing but love and determination to save a dog.

That is the story in a nutshell. Now can you please respect that I am not a documentary camera woman, I am not trying to teach people how do things. I am just trying to send a message. 

If you know that these dogs can be turned around then brilliant, you should be on my side! Not trying to pick me to pieces.

If you don't know that, then I hope I help and if you are interested in learning more then I will do a consultation.

Whether or not others help on the net is entirely up to them, and good luck I really hope it helps owners and their dogs. But it is not how I work.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I too am a little startled by the reactions of some. The OP has been open, clear and listened to what others have to say. 
TBH I mistrust anyone who says they have the `answer` to aggression problems. But she hasn`t done that. And she hasn`t wrapped it up in jargon either. 
I`d be interested in reading an open debate on aggression, without people trying to shut it down, personally.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> * he does not look in the least dangerous - frightened, yes.


Yes he is frightened, that is why you see aggressive behaviour from dogs. Because there is something they feel threatened by.
(Missing the footage of him at his worst, and you seem not to trust me when I say he was aggressive before the footage that I did get) Nothing I can do to proove that to you.

Not dangerous?? Frightened animals are very unpredictable and potentially very dangerous.

It is wrong to say he's frightened but not dangerous.
A friend of mine stupidly put his hand towards the kennel and Cerb tried to bite him. Friend learnt his lesson.

Even loving family dogs have the potential to be dangerous, not giving them the respect they deserve is what leads to people and children getting bitten.

You need to be careful about how you word things, some people might misinterpret what you say and think dogs behaving like Cerb aren't dangerous.

That is why I am replying to that statement. It must be made clear that only people who really understand dogs or owners who have experts to help them, work with dogs behaving like Cerb.

Do not try to touch or get close to a dog behaving like Cerb. (That is not preaching to the experts on here it is for the general public).


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I too am a little startled by the reactions of some. The OP has been open, clear and listened to what others have to say.
> TBH I mistrust anyone who says they have the `answer` to aggression problems. But she hasn`t done that. And she hasn`t wrapped it up in jargon either.
> *I`d be interested in reading an open debate on aggression, without people trying to shut it down, personally*.


I am with you on this one, i have always had the greatest respect for anyone on here who want/has/can give tips and advice and it is up to the individual to take this info onboard if they want to, but this was not the OP's point of the thread. she mearly introduced herself, then told us her journey which had a start (in South Africa) a middle (took on the rehabilitation and succeded with this job with a dog on death row) and an end (flew him back to england with her to live out the rest of his life, SAFE) i HAVE NOT ONCE heard her disrespect anyone on here for what they contribute to the threads, yes i have found her clear and upfront about her working intensiolns and not bombarded me with history, theory or anything else that to be honest confuses me even more but thats not to say the more complex information is not beneficial to anyone else. and finally as you have stated C&D (bold)


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## panegyric (Feb 2, 2011)

SarahAvon said:


> Is nobody at least pleased that this poor dog was kept from being killed on death row? Isn't that the big picture here?
> I for one am glad to see this post, as I have not watched the video before and it actually brought a tear to my eye.
> So thank you.


This is my first post in here, hello Sarah. It is amazing how caught up these people are in terminology, in theories, etc, and they could care less about a dog being saved from death row by a very competent and loving dog owner.


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## panegyric (Feb 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Whatever works for the dog I say and put predujice aside.
> 
> It's always the same on forums though if you don't go along with the majority you get slated, no matter what the outcome for the dog - who we are all supposed to be caring about and not how the owner has trained it.
> 
> Well done too I say and I wonder if others would have achieved the same results..........hmmm!


Apparently many are more concerned about theory than practical results. 
Which is obviously not beneficial for the dogs who are facing death row.


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## panegyric (Feb 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> > he does not look in the least dangerous - frightened, yes.
> 
> 
> If I consulted you as a dog trainer or whatever you'd like to call yourself and were literally to follow your observations and your implied advice that the dog
> ...


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

This is a old thread from Sept


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

panegyric said:


> If I consulted you as a dog trainer or whatever you'd like to call yourself and were literally to follow
> your observations and your implied advice that the dog
> *"...does not look in the least dangerous - frightened, yes." [Terry]*,
> and the dog bit me, I'd have ample reason to sue you depending on the extent of my injuries.
> ...


oh, pish and tosh - do U truly think that after over a quarter-century of working with dogs, cats 
[who have 20 claws AND over 2-dozen needle-sharp teeth, much-worse than dogs for infections], 
large parrots capable of removing chunks of flesh or taking off a digit, 
half-ton-plus horses and other livestock, wildlife in rehab, and more, 
*i don't know that 'frightened animals are dangerous'?  duh. *

i did not give "advice" - i made observations, based on poor-quality video from a limited POV, 
with little chance to see the dog moving freely and naturally; he's mostly trying to avoid the person, 
retreat and hide, or chase them off with bark-displays; i have seen plenty of dogs who display horrifically, 
but with a quiet approach, no direct eye-contact, and no frontal body-language or cornering, 
can be taken out of a run safely on lead - *not TOUCHED, but moved to another area, taken out 
for enrichment or exercise or toilet-trips - * and nobody gets hurt.

i volunteered at the Norfolk, VA, *SPCA* in the bad-old days, when they had the city-contract for strays, 
were mandated to take *every animal* presented at the door or stray anywhere or abandoned, 
and i had to get 60-pound stray-dogs off a concrete-pad in the upper-runs to take them out to walk. 
these dogs did not know me from any other stranger; i had to create some trust right off, and get a dog 
from a SHOULDER-HIGH floor safely into my arms, and down to the concrete floor; jumping was not safe! 
coaxing a frightened, undersocialized stray to get into my arms in a noisy, echoing, high-stress, crowded shelter? 
*this was a test.* :scared: every time, every dog; did U succeed, or did the dog retreat and refuse?

i did not fail often; if the dogs did not get out, they were forced to stay in the echoing, crazy, scary kennel 
for another 12 to 24-hours, and might not get out to toilet at all, let alone get some time to walk or 
run or get on grass, or play tug or fetch in the yards out back. 
*no dog ever said 'no' the second time; if i got them out once, the next time they saw me, 
they were at the door, eager to get down, jumping into my arms.* even now, these years later, 
it makes my eyes well - those dogs were a huge reason to bust my butt to go there by bus, 
spend my time and muscle and money, and invest in them, in the hope that someone would see that dog 
and see what i did: potential - trust, tentative but willing; an affectionate animal in terrible stress, 
but making an effort to meet me halfway, and put some faith in me.

i'll never forget them; many of course died, the euthanasia stats were terrible, but some got great homes, 
with wonderful people who saw the chance for a loving pet in that homeless dog. 
and unlike Cesar :lol: i never was bitten.


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## panegyric (Feb 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, pish and tosh - do U truly think that after over a quarter-century of working with dogs, cats
> [who have 20 claws AND over 2-dozen needle-sharp teeth, much-worse than dogs for infections],
> large parrots capable of removing chunks of flesh or taking off a digit,
> half-ton-plus horses and other livestock, wildlife in rehab, and more,
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

panegyric said:


> You know that, but your client doesn't
> That is the point.


huh - we seem to have a lot of pot-stirrers, eh?... 
well, ta! :thumbup: nice - errrm - meeting ya.


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, pish and tosh - do U truly think that after over a quarter-century of working with dogs, cats
> [who have 20 claws AND over 2-dozen needle-sharp teeth, much-worse than dogs for infections],
> large parrots capable of removing chunks of flesh or taking off a digit,
> half-ton-plus horses and other livestock, wildlife in rehab, and more,
> ...


Dear, dear, dear, even after all this time there is something about the OP's original post that you find hard to get past, in the original all that Sam was telling us was a journey she made with her dog, beginning, middle and end, no "i am the worlds best trainer, behaviourist", No theoretical crap, just her hands on real life experience, she never stated she was GOD OF DOGS (unlike some) why do you find that so difficult:confused1: I have always found on the whole you, LFL give out some very valuable information, BUT, this constant reminder of your many, many, many, many years of working with animals and your " i am right and everyone else is wrong who tries to help rehabilitate a dog" attitude actually spoils the better stuff you try to put across. Just let it go and remember NO ONE is 100% right about anything, it's called, "that's life"

sue


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

susieborder said:


> ...*after all this time* there is something about the OP's original post...


C+SB, it has -ZIP- to do with the OP :lol: i replied to a post *directed at me:*


leashedForLife said:


> > FROM - panegyric -
> > If I consulted *you as a dog trainer or whatever you'd like to call yourself* and were literally to follow your observations and your implied advice that the dog
> > "...does not look in the least dangerous - frightened, yes."
> > and *the dog bit me I'd have ample reason to sue* you depending on the extent of my injuries.
> ...


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

I rest my case.
Superarlo. Seguir adelante


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm with you Terry.

There's a huge difference between being close-minded and being* open-minded* enough to investigate relevant literature and scientific studies to understand what are the most respected and logical behavioural theories.

The problem is, people on here who are 'pack theory' advocates and react badly to anyone who says anything against 'pack theory', call those people close-minded. There's one difference though: our judgements are backed up by evidence.

However, it's "just life" that people rufuse to think rationally.

The OP, in my mind, has done a good thing _for that dog_. But has she done anything good for all the other millions of dogs in the same position? I am not so sure. As much as I am happy for the dog, this doesn't help current affairs. I have helped many dogs too, but don't write on forums to 'spread the word'. If you do that, you're obviously promoting your techniques, which logically brings us to criticising these techniques.

Personally, the OP lost me as soon as I saw "alpha dog" and then confirmed it by writing to a early PF member's response "what does it matter what word I use?". In contemporary issues, it matters a lot.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

OK I'm just gonna throw i my 5 cents worth here and say, after reading all the posts, I can see both sides, and while I respect Ms Browne, for saving and rehabilitating a dog that otherwise would have been put down, I can also see where LFL is coming from by saying, well what are your methods etc etc.
There does seem to be a degree of avoidance towards questions, and if we want to find out more we have to book a consultation? That makes me a little sceptical of the whole thing. It does seem to be a bit of an advertisement. Sorry, just my opinion!

And also with the accusations of bullying etc, people who love certain things, for example animals, are passionate about them, and in this kind of debate things are going to get heated. I hope Ms Browne doesn't get scared off the forum or feel as if she can't post here, as I have found this forum full of help and as Terry said there are years worth of training tips on here, that, for a novice like me, who can't afford to go to a behaviourist for tips on training my puppy etc, are exceedingly helpful.

However, I feel like, to come on here and be all "look what you can do when you make an effort with a dog that no one else gave a chance" and when someone asks well, what are your methods, can you give us a rough idea of how you accomplished this (and it is amazing, congratulations for doing it), it just makes me feel a bit uncomfortable about it that to hear more about you and your methods I have to book a consultation. Like someone else commented, I look forward to looking at your website as it might provide a little more insight to what you do and how you do it.

Also (last point I promise) People on here who are making a point of saying people are being very aggressive with the tone of their msgs etc, I think your comments are quite passive aggressive, so just because you're agreeing with OP, doesn;t make your comments any better.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Liquidsunshine said:


> OK I'm just gonna throw i my 5 cents worth here and say, after reading all the posts, I can see both sides, and while I respect Ms Browne, for saving and rehabilitating a dog that otherwise would have been put down, I can also see where LFL is coming from by saying, well what are your methods etc etc.
> There does seem to be a degree of avoidance towards questions, and if we want to find out more we have to book a consultation? That makes me a little sceptical of the whole thing. It does seem to be a bit of an advertisement. Sorry, just my opinion!
> 
> And also with the accusations of bullying etc, people who love certain things, for example animals, are passionate about them, and in this kind of debate things are going to get heated. I hope Ms Browne doesn't get scared off the forum or feel as if she can't post here, as I have found this forum full of help and as Terry said there are years worth of training tips on here, that, for a novice like me, who can't afford to go to a behaviourist for tips on training my puppy etc, are exceedingly helpful.
> ...


I have to agree that it sounds like someone drumming up business. There are a lot that do come here with that intention, claim to be a behaviourist, then run off when asked about their credentials/qualifications. If this lady did what she claims with this dog, well done her, but I see no reason to be evasive about it.

Anyway, this is an old thread and the OP has not been around since, so obviously yes, she has been scared off.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

It's a shame because I would be very interested in seeing a link to the website! I have to say if the OP was genuine, I don't think this thread would have scared her off. LFL will be happy


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

susieborder said:


> I rest my case.


feel free to put me on 'ignore'.  cheers!


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> feel free to put me on 'ignore'.  cheers!


Why would i want to put you on ignore, as i have said you give out some very good information, as do a lot of other members on PF, i am afraid i am too long in the tooth for all of that sort of malarky, i read what i want, and reply to what i want. i have my opinions the same as everyone else.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Anyway, this is an old thread and the OP has not been around since, so obviously yes, she has been scared off.


 or... she has got So Much Business from her amazing, touchingly miraculous video that she canna be arsed, 
fannying-aboot wi' the loikes o' oos numpties, 'angin'-aboot onna bluidy wee forrum, aye? 
she's ower-busy an' she's got nay toime for such as we... :nonod: bit o' a shame, innit?
yoo'd 'ave thoucht she would want to share the wonder o' it wi' the wurrld an' all, but it seems nay so. pity... tsk.


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> or... she has got So Much Business from her amazing, touchingly miraculous video that she canna be arsed,
> fannying-aboot wi' the loikes o' oos numpties, 'angin'-aboot onna bluidy wee forrum, aye?
> she's ower-busy an' she's got nay toime for such as we... :nonod: bit o' a shame, innit?
> yoo'd 'ave thoucht she would want to share the wonder o' it wi' the wurrld an' all, but it seems nay so. pity... tsk.


:confused1::nonod::nonod::nonod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

here is her UTube channel - 
YouTube - 22bradshaw's Channel 
or YouTube - 22bradshaw's Channel

here is a website - 
http://www.samantha-browne.webeden.co.uk/ 
it says she's in *Sussex - * _"Call*- *0776 276 1148
Email*- [email protected]"_

'what to expect from a consult' - 
http://tinyurl.com/6y635sn

this page on Dog Listening/'amiChien' is blank. 
http://tinyurl.com/6jd4ybz

this loads empty-boxes that are maybe pictures? but no text - 
http://tinyurl.com/68yb4nj

her links-page has a dead-link to janfennelthedoglistener 
her videos-page says 'coming soon'

here is her CONTACT form - 
http://tinyurl.com/68yb4nj


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

"Listener" in title = probable Jan Fennell wannabe = high likelihood of b011ocks talkage.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> "Listener" in title = probable Jan Fennell wannabe = high likelihood of b011ocks talkage.


oh, No! :nonod: nothing like that, she is a Jan Fennel *Graduate*. 
all very respectable, and it was *as an AmiChien rep or 'listener'* that she went to S-Africa - 
a working holiday of sorts - with the intention of finding a 'bad dog' to save & rehab. 
it's on her 'Cerberus' page on the website.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, No! :nonod: nothing like that, she is a Jan Fennel *Graduate*.
> all very respectable, and it was *as an AmiChien rep or 'listener'* that she went to S-Africa -
> a working holiday of sorts - with the intention of finding a 'bad dog' to save & rehab.
> it's on her 'Cerberus' page on the website.


Jan Fennell? isn't she the one whose advice on a dog pulling is, don't walk him then! The "Listeners" who charge approximately £195 to come and talk to you for two hours?

Good grief, had I known that I would not have been so polite!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, No! :nonod: nothing like that, she is a Jan Fennel *Graduate*.
> all very respectable, and it was *as an AmiChien rep or 'listener'* that she went to S-Africa -
> a working holiday of sorts - with the intention of finding a 'bad dog' to save & rehab.
> it's on her 'Cerberus' page on the website.


Um, but won't a Jan Fennell graduate follow Jan Fennell's theories, and by definition talk b011ocks??

Jan Fennell's certifiably nuts, IMVHO.

Still chuckle remembering one of her videos


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Jan Fennell? isn't she the one whose advice on a dog pulling is, don't walk him then! The "Listeners" who charge approximately £195 to come and talk to you for two hours?
> 
> Good grief, had I known that I would not have been so polite!


That's right.

They believe that if your dog is destructive when you're out, that it's because the dog has been worried about you being out and about all alone without it, and having to deal with bears and lions on your own.

Or somesuch nonsense


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> That's right.
> 
> They believe that if your dog is destructive when you're out, that it's because the dog has been worried about you being out and about all alone without it, and having to deal with bears and lions on your own.
> 
> Or somesuch nonsense


So it isn't separation anxiety, teething or boredom? He is worried about me? How sweet :lol:

So what is her cure for this behaviour, then - take the dog absolutely everywhere or charge nearly £200 to talk to him for two hours about how safe you are without him?

I have never seen the woman in real life, but reading the reviews of her books on Amazon put me right off.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Um, but won't a Jan Fennell graduate follow Jan Fennell's theories, and by definition talk b011ocks??


now, Pooh! :nonod: U are being passive-aggressive again, and U said U wouldn't do that. 

BTW - **love** the word 'somesuch'. :thumbup: i must find a way to use it today!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> There's a huge difference between being close-minded and being* open-minded* enough
> to investigate relevant literature and scientific studies to understand what are the most respected
> and logical behavioural theories.
> The problem is, people on here who are 'pack theory' advocates and react badly to anyone who says
> anything against 'pack theory', call those people close-minded. There's one difference though: our judgments are backed up by evidence.


yes, that's pretty much how i feel - dumbinance advocates are often shouting we don't listen or *try it,* 
and i have already tried it - back in the 1960s - and LEFT it there, :thumbup:

i don't criticize everything & everybody - but i do want some idea where they found, who they read, 
what mentors, etc - *some* sort of underpinnings or background or ___ . 
i don't think that's unreasonable. and i agree - where i become close-minded is when folks insist 
that punishment is *absolutely* needed for reliability, or that no dog learns without punishment. 
that i will not listen to without protest, and i won't agree aversives are mandatory; i've seen too many 
individual animals of many species, not only handled or trained or post-B-Mod thru me, 
but with may other trainers, to ever believe that. 


Rottiefan said:


> I have helped many dogs too, but don't write on forums to 'spread the word'. If you do that,
> you're obviously promoting your techniques, which logically brings us to criticising these techniques.


or at least asking what the heck they may consist of, just in simple curiosity. 



Rottiefan said:


> Personally, the OP lost me as soon as I saw "alpha dog" and then confirmed it
> by writing to a early PF member's response "what does it matter what word I use?".
> In contemporary issues, it matters a lot.


 yes - it does.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Hey guys, a long one for you 

Firstly I'd like to say the website that was found is my very old one which i no longer use and a new one is in the process of being designed. So the information on the current one is very old, and I have changed my mind about some of the things that are written due to my experiences since making that site. Yes I did do the Jan Fennell course. But after getting to know some of the people involved high up, I was disappointed and realised it was not for me. So I am no longer connected to the organisation. I want to make a strong point of saying that they do do a lot of good work with dogs, no matter what you believe about the way they do it, they have saved some lives. Also a lot of the people that have done the course are very lovely people who understand dogs and help a lot of dogs and owners with problems. Like any organisation you meet some truely great people and some that are not so good. 

My personal experience with it in general just isn't a good one, but I have friends from it who continue to do good work. I will not go into detail as I don't like to bad mouth anyone trying to help animals and at the end of the day that is what we are all trying to do.

The reason I don't answer direct questions about my approach is that my approach mainly comes from my life growing up and taming animals through out my childhood, as well as the course I did and listeneing to lots of different trainers or beahaviourists that may have had positive results using different methods. Therefore when people want help, I can't see how I can give it as their dog might react differently to my dogs and the experience I have with different dogs. So I personally don't want to give information as I am aware that it could go wrong. I would much rather work one to one and get to know the owner and dog. Find out expectations, limitation etc.. Then I feel I can give the best possible service. I am not saying others are wrong to give out advice... I just don't feel it's the right thing for me to do.

When it comes to the words I used in the video like "Alpha" I'm sorry but I grew up with Attenborough documentaries and it's just a word that I use to describe behaviour or a certain animal in a group... I didn't mean it to spark such a negative responce... I don't do anything like "dominate" my dogs, I don't agree with Cesar's way although sometimes I hear him say things I think would help the individual dog he is working with, but I think if a dog bites you then you are doing something wrong. I would never pin down a dog. I do take them for walks if they pull but just in a way as to work on the pulling, infact I love walking my dogs. I sometimes use food as a reward but my own experience is that over all the dogs work better for you when they don't have food as a distraction or focus. Cerberus isn't particularly driven by food, although I taught him, Sit, Stay, Lie down etc with food, but all his lead work was done with out food and he is brilliant on the lead. But my other dog Ruby needs that incentive from time to time, she is naturally nervous so in some circumstances it helps keep things positive for her, or help her see something that she thinks is negative in a positive way.

When it comes to this thread being a advertising thread. I haven't had any work from it and I wasn't using it at that, and when it comes to what I charge, I am very fair. I do a lot of work for free:
1. I took a dog into my own home for a week to stop him chewing up the house, for free, as the family wasn't able to pay me. And they were very happy with him when he returned.
2. I took a little dog 3 times a week to socialise him with my dogs over the period of a month or so, with out any charge. 
3. I walked a dog (yes walked it, not kept it at home) to work on her pulling as the owner was very busy. I did this for free, although the owner gave me lunch at her cafe as a thankyou.
4. The longest consultation I did was 6 hours on a sunday with no extra charges, and there is a free back up consultation when ever it is needed plus free back up for life if anyone has questions, plus walks, visits to dog at the work place if they go with their owner etc... 
5. I've just launched a special offer that after the initial consultation which is almost half price, what ever the onwers feels they need is free for the first year including things like extra visits, going on walks, helping with other problems that puppies might get as they grow up etc... Which only depends on how far I have to travel so sometimes owners would have to cover petrol costs.

I don't make much money from Dog training, although I obviously need to make money, my main aim is to help people and their dogs. 

I don't bad mouth anyones approach to training as things work differently for each dog and each owner.

I personally never use spray or electric collars, no choke chains or uncomfortable harnesses. I don't like the use of drugs to control dog behaviour. I don't use rattle bottles, throwing water at or anything that scares the dog into behaving. 
Basically I keep it as possitive as possible, but as in life sometimes things aren't always positive, my dogs know that there are consequences to certain actions, but these consequences are never forceful or scary. Things like if I'm playing with them and they get too rough (as Cerb used to as he wasn't used to playing with people), I will stop playing, and if they carry on trying to get me to play in a rough way I will walk away and leave them so they know that bad behaviour won't get them what they want. I make them work out what behaviour get's them attention. So they sometimes get a negative response from me, but I would never hit them or shout at them. I do use tone of voice to let them kno when I'm being serious or being silly with them and they are both very clever at picking up my signals.

I am a relaxed, calm person and therefore my dogs are relaxed and calm. I believe you have to be seen by your dog as someone that they want to be around someone positive for them to look to in times of need. Not ranting and raving or bossy and intimidating. They have simple rules that they understand. Like when I open the front door to a visitor, my dogs must stay behind me, this is obviously because I don't want them to get to the road and I don't want them to scare people as some people might see them as scary types of dog. So when I open the door they both stand behind me quietly watching what's happening.

If you came round to my house you'd find two happy dogs that are not robots. I hardly ever tell them to do anything as they are so well behaved, they just play, sleep, eat, go for walks on and off the lead. They have areas of behaviour that we continually work on but that's life and I love them and respect any fears they have or things they don't understand. I am planning to start agility with both of them to improve our relationship further.

So to sum up, I won't get into a debate with people who I don't know, and to be honest I can see some of the points that you make as you see the world differently to me, concerning my use of words or not wanting to give information ove the net. But I really did come here to make friends with people that love their dogs, love their work with dogs and just want to share their experiences.

And the Dangerous dog thread was started so that I could help to show people that these dogs can be saved. 

So if you're new to this thread, if you want to, watch the video and judge for yourself, if you've been part of this thread from the beginning then please understand that I am a nice person just trying to help dogs and make friends. If you met me in the real world you wouldn't respond to me in a negative way like you have on here. You would all probably quite like me as I am very accepting of peoples opinions and different ways of approaching situations.

To everyone who has seen the video the way I wanted it to be seen, thanks for been understanding towards it.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Hey there.. I think your right not to give particular advice over the net.. it can be used in many different ways and cause all sorts of problems.. We all have our own quirky ways for training.. but that doesn't mean anyone else is wrong.. 

Good luck with your training.. x


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

AWESOME

This maybe an old film but I still think its wonderful that a dog deemed as aggressive can be helped to such an extent


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Personally, I think it's great that you came back to the thread and if it's true what you said about not having received any work because of this thread or touting for business, then I apologose for calling it an advertisement.


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

Sam Browne said:


> Hey guys, a long one for you
> 
> Firstly I'd like to say the website that was found is my very old one which i no longer use and a new one is in the process of being designed. So the information on the current one is very old, and I have changed my mind about some of the things that are written due to my experiences since making that site. Yes I did do the Jan Fennell course. But after getting to know some of the people involved high up, I was disappointed and realised it was not for me. So I am no longer connected to the organisation. I want to make a strong point of saying that they do do a lot of good work with dogs, no matter what you believe about the way they do it, they have saved some lives. Also a lot of the people that have done the course are very lovely people who understand dogs and help a lot of dogs and owners with problems. Like any organisation you meet some truely great people and some that are not so good.
> 
> ...


Hi Sam great to hear you are still out there and doing the good work you set out and intended to do, I hope Ceberus is continuing to be a pleasure for you, Alfie is still work in progress, but we are having fun with him, at the moment he has STOLEN my grand-daughters riding hat and has taken it to hide down the garden she won't be best pleased anyway glad your ok and your post above was very informative, thanks, as you said everyone approaches things in different ways depending on the situation.

sue


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## BiKERcc (Jan 29, 2011)

WELL DONE

I haven't read all of the comments (as a lot of them seem petty to be honest)

It's fantastic that the dogs are being helped, and he got saved from being PTS. He's a gorgeous boy, such pretty markings.


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## fuzzymum (Nov 29, 2010)

LOVE your videos x


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## nykea (Jan 27, 2011)

Hi, I'm fairly new on this forum, but wanted to say a few words. Of course it's great that this poor chap was saved, but in the form it was presented it could be given to general public, not to devoted pet lovers, who want more details. I do agree that every dog is different and deserved a different method, but I don't see any harm in saying e.g. because he was dog-aggressive we used desensitization using prey drive, or choke chain or whatever you used. In the end people try these things anyway, and as you're saying your methods are largely "positive" they shouldn't do any more harm than what is already in the net (or on tv......).
The second bit relates to dangerous breeds. Somewhere in the text there was something about all dogs being innocent puppies once. Yes, this is true, it's also true that in most cases it's humans wrong behaviour that results in aggressive dog. But let's not be naive, with some breeds it's not wrong action, but lack of action that may result in aggressive dog!! Someone loving dogs could be a perfect owner for a lab, but having a perfectly normal puppy of dogo argentino, he could end up with a beast! I have lived with dogs all my life, at the moment I have a 2.5 year old intact russian terrier male, with strong guarding instinct. We are coping with that, but it demanded my care and training from the first day I got him. And as much as I love dogs, I would never ever take a dogo, or tosa, because I know I couldn't cope with them. So yes, banning breeds is stupid and doesn't solve a problem of dangerous dogs, but let's not pretend that there is no difference between breeds!! Sometimes love alone is not enough, some dogs need a particular type of person (mainly strong, but not in dominant meaning!!) to be normal!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

nykea said:


> Hi, I'm fairly new on this forum, but wanted to say a few words. Of course it's great that this poor chap was saved, but in the form it was presented it could be given to general public, not to devoted pet lovers, who want more details. I do agree that every dog is different and deserved a different method, but I don't see any harm in saying e.g. because he was dog-aggressive we used desensitization using prey drive, or choke chain or whatever you used. In the end people try these things anyway, and as you're saying your methods are largely "positive" they shouldn't do any more harm than what is already in the net (or on tv......).
> The second bit relates to dangerous breeds. Somewhere in the text there was something about all dogs being innocent puppies once. Yes, this is true, it's also true that in most cases it's humans wrong behaviour that results in aggressive dog. But let's not be naive, with some breeds it's not wrong action, but lack of action that may result in aggressive dog!! Someone loving dogs could be a perfect owner for a lab, but having a perfectly normal puppy of dogo argentino, he could end up with a beast! I have lived with dogs all my life, at the moment I have a 2.5 year old intact russian terrier male, with strong guarding instinct. We are coping with that, but it demanded my care and training from the first day I got him. And as much as I love dogs, I would never ever take a dogo, or tosa, because I know I couldn't cope with them. So yes, banning breeds is stupid and doesn't solve a problem of dangerous dogs, but let's not pretend that there is no difference between breeds!! Sometimes love alone is not enough, some dogs need a particular type of person (mainly strong, but not in dominant meaning!!) to be normal!!


You can say exactly the same of any breed. If you do not do your research into the breed traits and cannot give the time and effort to adapt yourself to those traits you will be having problems. Let's face it, people too often buy a dog either for its looks alone or for its tough looking demeanour. They do no research whatsoever.

When I was out with Ferdie when he was a puppy he started chasing a springer spaniel and I grabbed him back after about five minutes and told him he would never keep up with a springer. The owner then said, yes, she didn't know that when she got him! How daft is that?

I doubt very much whether Sam has used a choke chain, I sincerely hope not. They have been known to cause trachea damage.


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

Hey newfiesmum,

You are right, I have never used a choke chain and never will. Not sure why nykea suggested that as a way to train Cerb, as I clearly stated that I don't use those type of things. At least since Cerb has know me he has only ever know a collar, a lead, some toys and some treats... and a lot of cuddles and love.

To all the people who simply enjoy the videos, I'm glad you like them and thanks for the comments


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## Sam Browne (Sep 10, 2010)

I was also meant to say to Liquidsunshine, it is true that I have had no work from the forum and I really appreciate your apology. 

I completely understand where you were coming from with the other posts you added to the thread. I'm glad you put them on. It gave me the chance to respond to some of the questions that I'm sure a lot of people had. My main reason for the long reply was because of what you said. So I'm really glad that you got to read it.


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## nykea (Jan 27, 2011)

Sorry, I don't know why I'm not getting notifications for this topic. I didn't mean to suggest Sam used choke collar, just put it in there as an example. I personally never used it and hope I'll never have to.
Still, no matter what methods a person is using, I don't see the harm of talking about them openly.

As to dangerous breeds, of course I agree with Newfiesmum, people are absolute morons when it comes to choosing the breed. I was taking care of a siberian husky once, almost 2 yo male, intact, who was getting 0.5h walk in the park daily, and that was all his exercise. And he was getting food for working dogs....:scared: Luckily I knew the breed and I had no problems with him, but later a friend of the owners said that she never saw that dog so nice and calm, normally he was wrecking everything in the house. But in the same time, I think there is a difference between dogs like that in wrong hands, and a tosa for example. Don't get me wrong, I love big and strong breeds, and with people not involved with dogs I always say that all cases of biting are human's fault, but between doggy people I think we should be honest with ourselves, some breeds are not suitable for majority of dog owners. And instead of banning the breed, I would rather put a strong limitations on who can have a dog like that. Like psychological tests and ideally some proof of experience in handling dogs.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

nykea said:


> Sorry, I don't know why I'm not getting notifications for this topic. I didn't mean to suggest Sam used choke collar, just put it in there as an example. I personally never used it and hope I'll never have to.
> Still, no matter what methods a person is using, I don't see the harm of talking about them openly.
> 
> As to dangerous breeds, of course I agree with Newfiesmum, people are absolute morons when it comes to choosing the breed. I was taking care of a siberian husky once, almost 2 yo male, intact, who was getting 0.5h walk in the park daily, and that was all his exercise. And he was getting food for working dogs....:scared: Luckily I knew the breed and I had no problems with him, but later a friend of the owners said that she never saw that dog so nice and calm, normally he was wrecking everything in the house. *But in the same time, I think there is a difference between dogs like that in wrong hands, and a tosa for example.* Don't get me wrong, I love big and strong breeds, and with people not involved with dogs I always say that all cases of biting are human's fault, but between doggy people I think we should be honest with ourselves, some breeds are not suitable for majority of dog owners. And instead of banning the breed, I would rather put a strong limitations on who can have a dog like that. Like psychological tests and ideally some proof of experience in handling dogs.


Whilst I agree with you, I think that any breed in the wrong hands, can cause problems. It is scary the amount of huskies one sees about just lately, which people DO buy for their looks alone. I had a pupil who pointed one out to me and said that was the sort of dog they wanted. She had two small children and had never owned a dog and when I asked what she knew about them, the answer was zilch. I managed to educate on the traits that I knew (only really what I have read on here) and she realised thankfully that she would not have time for one. Even a big soft gentle dog like a newfie can become out of control in the wrong hands, as witnessed by the one who lives round the corner from me. When I first got Ferdie, everyone was telling me he would need loads of exercise. Had I listened to them, I would have had a dog with serious joint problems.

Breeders should make absolutely sure that their customers have a thorough knowledge of the breed they are selling, and the good ones do, but whilst we allow and encourage puppy farms and pet shops, it will never happen.


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## nykea (Jan 27, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Breeders should make absolutely sure that their customers have a thorough knowledge of the breed they are selling, and the good ones do, but whilst we allow and encourage puppy farms and pet shops, it will never happen.


AMEN!!!!!!!! If only all breeders really cared for what will happen to their dogs!! I would like to breed RBTs in the future, but the fate of the puppies is one of the things that is restraining me. Knowing me there would be only a handful of people in the whole country I would be happy to give my babies to, and unfortunately bigger part of them is into other breeds than a rbt!! 
I love the way huskies and malamutes look like, magnificent creatures, but I would never ever get one. Just know that I wouldn't cope with their exercise needs. Same goes for dogs like Tosa or Dogo. I really like the way they look, especially Tosa, but I don't think I'm experienced enough to have a dog with such strong characters. Another breed I would never get is.... a border collie!! Their drive to work just scares me! Wouldn't want to have a dog that is more clever than I am!


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## kocker (Mar 4, 2011)

> Sam Browne
> 
> Some of the techniques Cesar uses are barbaric, such as the prong collar, and pinning dogs down.


:confused1: Is pinning a dog down barbaric? Isn't this what dogs to to each other? :confused1:
I don't agree, naturally with all that millan does, and as in every realm of life won't always agree with other people in everything, but isn't this assertion a bit silly and just implying that millan is cruel to dogs?
Dogs are physical, and perhaps you haven't watched, apparently a dog pin other down, not in a very soft way.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

kocker said:


> :confused1: Is pinning a dog down barbaric? Isn't this what dogs to to each other? :confused1:
> I don't agree, naturally with all that millan does, and as in every realm of life won't always agree with other people in everything, but isn't this assertion a bit silly and just implying that millan is cruel to dogs?
> Dogs are physical, and perhaps you haven't watched, apparently a dog pin other down, not in a very soft way.


Who says that dogs pin each other down? Caesar Millan does so it must be true. That is old, outdated theory which came out of a study of wolves, captive wolves in fact who were not related and not a proper pack. Implying that Millan is cruel to dogs? I for one am not simply implying; I am saying that he does more harm to dogs, not just himself, but for all the millions of people who watch his show and do that same to their dogs.



kocker said:


> Is pinning down a dog barbaric? :lol:
> This is exactly what they do to each other, specially if they are red zone dogs.
> Perhaps Millan learned that from dogs themselves? :scared:


What he learned from from watching feral dogs, who have to fight for their resources. They are not a pack of dogs, with a leader, simply wild animals trying to get the limited food available. The term red zone was invented by CM himself; it means nothing.


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Who says that dogs pin each other down?


I don't agree with pinning but dogs do it when need be. I have a collie who will physically pin down rude dogs to teach them some manners. Lots of noise and teeth but no damage. Gets the message across very fast.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

OllieBob said:


> I don't agree with pinning but dogs do it when need be. I have a collie who will physically pin down rude dogs to teach them some manners. Lots of noise and teeth but no damage. Gets the message across very fast.


Possibly, but is the dog forcing the other dog to stay there, by sheer strength? And does the collie make the other dog stay there for ten minutes? If a human being does that to a dog who is already aggressive, he is only going to make the dog more aggressive. And I am sure if your collie tried to do it to an aggressive dog, there would be a huge fight, and lots of damage.


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## beltabout (Dec 11, 2010)

What is a red zone dog?

Who decides this?

What are the parameters for labelling a dog a red zone dog?

What is the evidence base for this and how was the study completed?


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## beltabout (Dec 11, 2010)

Originally Posted by newfiesmum 
Breeders should make absolutely sure that their customers have a thorough knowledge of the breed they are selling, and the good ones do, but whilst we allow and encourage puppy farms and pet shops, it will never happen.

I agree so much that I am thinking that in future I may not let people pick a puppy, but after meeting them and getting to know them I am considering picking the puppy for them. Not sure how this will go down but I think it will stop returns and dogs who are on a lead for the rest of their lives, or worse still abandoned.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

beltabout said:


> Originally Posted by newfiesmum
> Breeders should make absolutely sure that their customers have a thorough knowledge of the breed they are selling, and the good ones do, but whilst we allow and encourage puppy farms and pet shops, it will never happen.
> 
> I agree so much that I am thinking that in future I may not let people pick a puppy, but after meeting them and getting to know them I am considering picking the puppy for them. Not sure how this will go down but I think it will stop returns and dogs who are on a lead for the rest of their lives, or worse still abandoned.


Some organisations recommend that if you are buying a puppy you should let the breeder choose. For instance, if you want a dog to show, the breeder is the one most likely to know which dog will be the most likely show dog.

What is needed firstly is a ban on allowing animals to be sold in pet stores, especially puppies and kittens. This law would not be too difficult to implement, would it? I actually thought it had already been stopped at one time, but now I realise that it was ethical pet stores and small pet shops who had decided not to sell them any more. My local pet shop has stopped selling small pets as well, some years ago.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Some of the techniques Cesar uses are barbaric, such as the prong collar, and pinning dogs down.
> - Sam Browne


to which U replied: 


kocker said:


> ...isn't this assertion a bit silly and just [implies] that millan is cruel to dogs?


the *AHA* went much further than _'imply'_ - they SAID the handling is unnecessarily harsh, that the show 
is misleading to the general audience, that the techniques are old-fashioned & abusive. 
that was September 2006, and they have not changed their minds.

*AVSAB* & the *AVMA* have also written position papers for dog-owners and dog-pros, explaining that punishment 
and painful, aversive or threatening methods are not apropos for training or b-mod, and can result in aggro or bites, 
or fallout - like fears, defensive behavior, and so on.

*Welfare in Dog-Training* is a UK-organization which also asserts that such tools & methods are dangerous to 
implement, and counterproductive.


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