# Lola's Diary First Litter



## LolasMum (Sep 23, 2013)

Hi everyone, I stumbled across this site whilst doing research for my pregnant dog. Lola is a 2 half years hybrid dog Malshi, cross between Shih-tzu, Maltese. We only decided to mate her as she has such a good nature and couple of family members wanted a pup but wanted to be sure of temperament. Lola was mated with a Shih-tzu 4 times between 22 July - 1 August. There was no "tie" but she did get pregnant. For this reason we can't be sure exactly of how many days she is. The vet advised against ultrasound/X-ray and checked her again last Friday. He advised he felt puppies would arrive within the week and said smaller breeds tend to go into labour early.

Yesterday her temperature dropped from a normal of 37.5 to 36.9'. It stayed low for 24 hours. During that time she was also panting/breathing really heavy and trying to get upstairs to the bedroom and behind the sofa. She was still eating normally. Today her temperature has risen again to 37.3 and the panting has stopped.

Any advice would be much appreciated.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Working things out she could be due between now and 3rd October, that is if she ovulated straight away. Sounds as if she is getting rather large and uncomfortable. No ideas about temperatures, I don't do them, I would rather wait and let nature take its course.


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## LolasMum (Sep 23, 2013)

Vet advised us to go somewhere in the middle. If it happened the first mating she would be 63 days today, if week later 57. Vet did say because she's small he wouldn't recommend going past 65 days. Temp still low, diarrhoea earlier, very quiet and hiding out way.


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Just wondering how lolas is this morning?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Are there any relevant health tests for these breeds?

If yes - did you ensure they were done on both parent dogs...?

Sorry, but I don't think the reasons you give are enough to breed, not with the rescues packed with lovely dogs with equally sweet natures


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## LolasMum (Sep 23, 2013)

Firstly, Lola is doing very well this morning, she has been vet checked, who is happy with her progress.

I joined this site for advice and support, yet, like so many other sites, there is always one person who decides to take the moral high ground and give the distinct impression that they "know best" with a frankly uncalled for and unwarranted suggestion that I should never have bred my dog. Facts - both dogs were health checked. Breeder is registered. We have been in constant touch with each other. Vet has checked at the correct intervals and is happy with progress. We bred Lola as she has an excellent temperament, and any puppies produced are going to loving family members and friends that I know. I would NEVER, repeat, NEVER, have bred her unless I knew exactly what I was doing. So please, take this the way it is intended, if you do not know me, or do not have a factual, friendly suggestion as to how I can be helped, then don't feel the need to join a thread that was started with all best intentions. Sadly, I may now leave what I hoped was a supportive crowd - I hope I don't have to.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm surprised if you know exactly what you're doing that you need to come onto a forum of strangers and ask for advice.

Obviously it's too late in this case but it's worth pointing out for anyone else considering breeding their dog that vet checked is not the same as health tested.

This community is incredibly supportive but also many here are incredibly driven to try and improve the current situation with dogs at the moment by promoting ethical and well thought out breeding. Unfortunately breeding from a bitch purely because she has a lovely temperament and family/friends want puppies is often neither of those things.


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Glad to hear lolas doing well, you will get support from people on hear but there are a lot of people who have very strong opinions that they express. 
Enjoy this time with lola and the experience of breeding a litter, I loved every minute of lily's litter though at times I was worried, it's hard work but extremely rewarding I kept one a bitch, my son and his gf another. Do give the forum the opportunity to show its supportve side and please keep us updated on lolas progress.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LolasMum said:


> Firstly, Lola is doing very well this morning, she has been vet checked, who is happy with her progress.
> 
> I joined this site for advice and support, yet, like so many other sites, there is always one person who decides to take the moral high ground and give the distinct impression that they "know best" with a frankly uncalled for and unwarranted suggestion that I should never have bred my dog.* Facts - both dogs were health checked. Breeder is registered. *We have been in constant touch with each other. Vet has checked at the correct intervals and is happy with progress. We bred Lola as she has an excellent temperament, and any puppies produced are going to loving family members and friends that I know. I would NEVER, repeat, NEVER, have bred her unless I knew exactly what I was doing. So please, take this the way it is intended, if you do not know me, or do not have a factual, friendly suggestion as to how I can be helped, then don't feel the need to join a thread that was started with all best intentions. Sadly, I may now leave what I hoped was a supportive crowd - I hope I don't have to.


LOL - so you don't even know that 'health checks' and breed relevant health tests are entirely different things YET you are right to breed???

Riiiight.......


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## LolasMum (Sep 23, 2013)

With respect to all opinions, whether informative, negative or nothing better to do than analyse comments and pick parts to criticise, it's fairly obvious that I shouldn't have thought for a nano second that this site was set up to assist a live situation, rather to opine on the pros and cons of breeding. I understand that now, but before I leave, some points to consider. Your actions will serve to drive less tenacious and caring people than I to think "what's the point in asking questions" and just crack on regardless. The whole point of a "thread" in a "forum" is meant to be to answer questions with helpful suggestions. I consulted professionals before deciding what to do, if you guys are pros, you need to work on your bedside manner. Finally, I trust and hope that your message gets across to those that matter - the folk that breed with pound signs in their eyes, and a suffering bitch. Feel free to dissect the above with the knowledge that it'll give me a laugh.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

for goodness sake; why on earth post on an open forum if the first question you amy not have wanted asked is met with you deciding to leave.
for the record, depending on what you mean by 'registered breeder'/ 'professional' that could well be a much worse thing than a byb if you mean registered with the council as a breeding facility.

hope loa does well- with maltese being so similar to my breed i know they can have issues with whelping larger pups (and shih tzus are bigger boned than maltese) so keep that ion mind when the time comes to lookn out for signes of distress of a possible stuck pup.

i'm sure you'll see this as 'picking appart' but it isn't... do with this post what you please, but every person in this section posts with animals best interests at heart... and no one here are 'the folk that breed with pound signs in their eyes, and a suffering bitch'.
hope you don't leave as it is a very imformative forum... but yes, you will get questions that you may not have wanted to answer...


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm afraid a discussion forum is just that. Post something and people will discuss it. I'm afraid you can't really post on a forum such as this then expect to dictate how people respond to your post.

The subject of breeding dogs is a very emotive one, not least because there are far too many people doing it for all the wrong reasons and without being willing to put in all the effort and thought required to elevate them above being a "back yard breeder".

I honestly hope all goes well for you and especially your bitch but it takes very little effort to find examples, even just on this forum, on this forum of times when it's gone wrong even for the people who have done everything right.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

As far as I can see, the decision's already been made , Lola is already pregnant, it's a done deed and no way back.
Surely what's needed now is practical advice on how to care for her and her litter ,no point going into details about tests that SHOULD have been done , it's too late for that , at least in this case.

By all means Lola's mum, you should research these tests if you breed again to give any pups the best possible chance of a healthy life. And on reading this thread the majority of replies have been friendly and helpful, so don't let the replies you DON'T like stop you using the forum. 

Good luck with Lola and pups, please keep us up to date, I want ( need!!) pics !


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> As far as I can see, the decision's already been made , Lola is already pregnant, it's a done deed and no way back.
> Surely what's needed now is practical advice on how to care for her and her litter ,no point going into details about tests that SHOULD have been done , it's too late for that , at least in this case.


It is too late in this case but as this is an open forum that can be read without even needing to be registered. It may not help the OP to talk about health testing and the forethought that should go into breeding a litter but if there's a chance that it might help someone reading the forums and considering breeding then it's worth posting.

It's all very well seeking advice on a forum full of strangers with completely unverifiable credentials but having an experienced mentor or mentors available in real life is one of the things that should have been sorted before the OP went about breeding. If I were breeding a first litter I know I would not be comfortable without having someone experienced who I could contact at any time if I was worried or unsure. Obviously there's nothing wrong with discussing breeding and comparing notes on forums but relying on them for vital information is unwise at best.

Have you contacted Lola's breeder OP? If they are decent they should be more than happy to be involved and offer any help you need.


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## LolasMum (Sep 23, 2013)

To those who have posted friendly informative replies Thank you from the bottom of my heart. To those "keyboard gangsters" who have nothing better to do than slander and put the fear of god into you I suggest you have a good think about the purpose of these forums. Are their Administrators who view these threads and pick up on what can only be described as "cyber bullying"? Yes I admire your passion regarding backyard breeders as I myself have strong opinions on this. Are any of you trained vets? Prior to mating Lola we consulted both the breeder we purchased her from and the vet. Both agreed there was nothing that would indicate we shouldn't allow her to have one litter and that in fact it could be good for her. Furthermore the vet is of the opinion that "hybrid/mixed breeds" have far less problems than full pedigree dogs. Lola is a much loved family pet and we always intended having her dressed following her litter. We have consulted the vet throughout the pregnancy and will continue to do so. I wrongly surmised I would have gained friends and a positive experience on a pet friendly forum. The minority have made this a negative experience when my main concern at this time is for our beloved pet. Incidentally to the "haters" everyone has to start out somewhere as did you!! To those friendlier responses again thank you very much. I shall be speaking to admin about what is nothing more than a which hunt to a new member. With that I bid you goodbye to go care for Lola who indeed is my main focus at this time.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LolasMum said:


> To those who have posted friendly informative replies Thank you from the bottom of my heart. To those *"keyboard gangsters" *who have nothing better to do than* slander *and put the fear of god into you I suggest you have a good think about the purpose of these forums. Are their Administrators who view these threads and pick up on what can only be described as "cyber bullying"? Yes I admire your passion regarding backyard breeders as I myself have strong opinions on this. Are any of you trained vets? Prior to mating Lola we consulted both the breeder we purchased her from and the vet. Both agreed there was nothing that would indicate we shouldn't allow her to have one litter and that* in fact it could be good for her. *_Furthermore the vet is of the opinion that "hybrid/mixed breeds" have far less problems than full pedigree dogs. _ Lola is a much loved family pet and we always intended having her dressed following her litter. We have consulted the vet throughout the pregnancy and will continue to do so. I wrongly surmised I would have gained friends and a positive experience on a pet friendly forum. The minority have made this a negative experience when my main concern at this time is for our beloved pet. Incidentally to the *"haters"* everyone has to start out somewhere as did you!! To those friendlier responses again thank you very much. I shall be speaking to admin about what is nothing more than a which hunt to a new member. With that I bid you goodbye to go care for Lola who indeed is my main focus at this time.


No decent breeder nor vet would claim it is 'good' for a bitch to have a litter! And you are also saying your vet supports the notion of 'hybrid vigour'?

FIND A BETTER VET.

And if you don't want candid opinions then don't blinking well POST on an OPEN forum.

If you don't know the difference between 'health tests' and 'health checks' then you have no business going into breeding - and if you want to label that 'slander' then knock yourself out!

Yes I have been blunt but I am so fed up of people insisting on breeding their dogs without doing even enough research to know what 'breed relevant health tests' MEANS :mad2:

As for branding me a 'hater' - yep, I do passionately and utterly hate and loathe people who care so little for their dogs that they are prepared to risk their health by letting them get pregnant without having first done TONS of research.

Not to mention that rescues are bursting at the seams with unwanted dogs.

You will find none of this is 'slander' - it is me expressing my opinion. Which is allowed in a democracy! Get over it.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

> Prior to mating Lola we consulted both the breeder we purchased her from and the vet. Both agreed there was nothing that would indicate we shouldn't allow her to have one litter and that in fact it could be good for her.


Were health tests performed? I don't believe there are some recommended one for both maltese and shih tzus. It's also a complete myth, though some vets seem very keen to keep perpetuating it, that having a litter is of any benefit whatsoever to a bitch either physically or mentally.



> Furthermore the vet is of the opinion that "hybrid/mixed breeds" have far less problems than full pedigree dogs.


There's a great misconception that breeding two different breeds is somehow a guarantee of healthy puppies and thus health testing and choosing the parents with care is unnecessary. I would not be happy to rely on chance to avoid health issues if there were tests available, nor would I support a breeder who used crossbreeding as an excuse not to bother testing.

I'm sorry if you feel bullied OP but that is certainly not my intention, nor that of most other posters I'm sure. The truth is you need a thick skin if you are going to breed dogs, it's one of those subjects that is highly emotive for many dog lovers and a lot of us will grab any opportunity we can to get the information out there which may cause someone to think twice about breeding their dogs for the wrong reasons.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I know why people are annoyed. But what's the OP going to do about it now?

Her dogs going to have pups very shortly - and as dog lovers shouldn't we be giving advice to help the bitch and pups survive?

There's one hell of a lot of ignorance around, not only about health tests but about the whelping process too. Advising on the latter is currently the case in point.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> I know why people are annoyed. But what's the OP going to do about it now?
> 
> Her dogs going to have pups very shortly - and as dog lovers shouldn't we be giving advice to help the bitch and pups survive?
> 
> There's one hell of a lot of ignorance around, not only about health tests but about the whelping process too. Advising on the latter is currently the case in point.


My point exactly ! She's had some good advice, I hope she sees it as such.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

BessieDog said:


> There's one hell of a lot of ignorance around


Exactly.

Just because the OP can't benefit from some advice with this litter it may help them in future, as well as people reading the forum who aren't registered.

I hope the OP sticks around as they will get great advice here but I see it as a good thing that there are people always willing to promote ethical breeding.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SusieRainbow said:


> As far as I can see, the decision's already been made , Lola is already pregnant, it's a done deed and no way back.
> Surely what's needed now is practical advice on how to care for her and her litter ,no point going into details about tests that SHOULD have been done , it's too late for that , at least in this case.
> 
> By all means Lola's mum, you should research these tests if you breed again to give any pups the best possible chance of a healthy life. And on reading this thread the majority of replies have been friendly and helpful, so don't let the replies you DON'T like stop you using the forum.
> ...





BessieDog said:


> I know why people are annoyed. But what's the OP going to do about it now?
> 
> Her dogs going to have pups very shortly - and as dog lovers shouldn't we be giving advice to help the bitch and pups survive?
> 
> There's one hell of a lot of ignorance around, not only about health tests but about the whelping process too. Advising on the latter is currently the case in point.





SusieRainbow said:


> My point exactly ! She's had some good advice, I hope she sees it as such.


See now these are things I have issues with......... "Ohh it's already happened so what's the point of saying anything" Well the point is for anyone else who's thinking for breeding just because, they may reconsider, just maybe, I'm sure everyone on here will support and offer advise and help, because they are dog lovers, the fact they don't just think "oh well it's happened " shows me they really do care about dogs as dog lovers we should not just sit back and think "oh Well it's happened"

Consulting a breeder who breeds cross breeds about breeding hardly smack of responsible breeding, no health test not responsible, breeding just because not responsible, but say nothing because it's happened not responsible in my eyes..

The reason we have byb and puppy farms is because there are to many people saying "OH well it's happened".. The litter has been born, nothing to do with me if I buy the puppy it's already happened. Paid my deposit then find out that it's a dealer, or puppy farm oh well it's happened, the oh well it's happened sentiments are what keeps people in business. Wonder what the OP breeder breed a cross breed? Wonder why the stud owner accepted a fee, bet it wasn't because they had friends and family who wanted dogs and their dog had a nice temperament, wonder how many of this litter will have nice temperaments and those owners go on to allow their bitch to have a litter, or their dog to sire at little.. But hey what will that matter because at some stage it'll be "oh well it's happened".........................................................................


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Meezey said:


> See now these are things I have issues with......... "Ohh it's already happened so what's the point of saying anything" Well the point is for anyone else who's thinking for breeding just because, they may reconsider, just maybe, I'm sure everyone on here will support and offer advise and help, because they are dog lovers, the fact they don't just think "oh well it's happened " shows me they really do care about dogs as dog lovers we should not just sit back and think "oh Well it's happened"
> 
> Consulting a breeder who breeds cross breeds about breeding hardly smack of responsible breeding, no health test not responsible, breeding just because not responsible, but say nothing because it's happened not responsible in my eyes..
> 
> The reason we have byb and puppy farms is because there are to many people saying "OH well it's happened".. The litter has been born, nothing to do with me if I buy the puppy it's already happened. Paid my deposit then find out that it's a dealer, or puppy farm oh well it's happened, the oh well it's happened sentiments are what keeps people in business. Wonder what the OP breeder breed a cross breed? Wonder why the stud owner accepted a fee, bet it wasn't because they had friends and family who wanted dogs and their dog had a nice temperament, wonder how many of this litter will have nice temperaments and those owners go on to allow their bitch to have a litter, or their dog to sire at little.. But hey what will that matter because at some stage it'll be "oh well it's happened".........................................................................


So what should the advice be then? Drown the pups at birth?

I understand your point, but I'm upset about another thread where someone lost their bitch. Could have happened anyway, but they obviously didn't understand about looking after a bitch in whelp. That dog shouldn't have been bred either, but I do hope no one's crass enough to point it out at this time.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> So what should the advice be then? Drown the pups at birth?
> 
> I understand your point, but I'm upset about another thread where someone lost their bitch. Could have happened anyway, but they obviously didn't understand about looking after a bitch in whelp. That dog shouldn't have been bred either, but I do hope no one's crass enough to point it out at this time.


As I said, I know people would give advise, and I know people will help, BUT ignoring that fact that this breeding is irresponsible doesn't help anyone else does it... Brushing the fact that the OP is being irresponsible under the carpet it's helpful imho.

I will sound crass here, and I know your already upset but losing a bitch is a very REAL part of breeding, whether it's done right or not. It's one of the main reason I don't and won't breed either my dogs or cats.. It's a risk that is taken in EVERY mating and again not to sound to callous, if you chose to breed because your dog has a nice temperament or because your friends want a puppy that's a risk, your putting your bitches life on the line purely because she has a nice temperament...


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> I know why people are annoyed. But what's the OP going to do about it now?
> 
> Her dogs going to have pups very shortly - and as dog lovers shouldn't we be giving advice to help the bitch and pups survive?
> 
> There's one hell of a lot of ignorance around, not only about health tests but about the whelping process too. Advising on the latter is currently the case in point.


indeed. but if both can be done in the same post then why not!

OP, i would have PM'd you, but you don't have enough posts to allow it, so afraid i'll have to say it here.
i've bred a mix litter a few years ago when i was younger and naive- i believed in 'hybrid vigor' because my breeder told me about it, and why wouldn't a 16yr old believe something said by a woman who had been breeding dogs for years!?
it was a hell of a roller coaster, the steepest learning curve, one of the best and then worst experiences of my life, and its why i'll always post on threads such as this. it's linked at the bottom of this post because i can't retype it. 
i'm not bullying, i'm not on a witch hunt and i'm certainly not a 'hater', but i do however give a damn about your little girl, her babies, and you. its hard work raising a litter- and a longer time scale with toys than giants (most needing 10-12 weeks in the breeders home) and things can and do go wrong.
the thread will quieten down soon; when it does have another wee read and don't view everything said as negative- because hats not how it is meant by anyone... it is meant to be helpful and educational to you and on-lookers.

i really would advise you stick around; when she starts to whelp and then when she is raising her babies, then when you take over... we can help. even if you don't post a thread, there are plenty of people you can private message (myself included) and regardless of any differing opinions we will happily give any advise we can. i mean, you said it... we are a forum of pet-lovers after all! 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/308953-why-im-against-breeding-just-because-you-can.html


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Have the Shih Tzu and Shi Tzu crossbreed been tested for Prekallikrein Deficiency & Renal Dysplasia, as the Crossbreed been tested for PRA, Patellar luxation, Portosystemic liver shunt ? if not prepare yourself for the eventuality that one of the pups may develop one of these conditions and you find yourself in court, as you are liable - there are tests available for these conditions in these breeds ignorance is not a defense in a Court of Law!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LolasMum said:


> Firstly, Lola is doing very well this morning, she has been vet checked, who is happy with her progress.
> 
> I joined this site for advice and support, yet, like so many other sites, there is always one person who decides to take the moral high ground and give the distinct impression that they "know best" with a frankly uncalled for and unwarranted suggestion that I should never have bred my dog. Facts - both dogs were health checked. Breeder is registered. We have been in constant touch with each other. Vet has checked at the correct intervals and is happy with progress. We bred Lola as she has an excellent temperament, and any puppies produced are going to loving family members and friends that I know. I would NEVER, repeat, NEVER, have bred her unless I knew exactly what I was doing. So please, take this the way it is intended, if you do not know me, or do not have a factual, friendly suggestion as to how I can be helped, then don't feel the need to join a thread that was started with all best intentions. Sadly, I may now leave what I hoped was a supportive crowd - I hope I don't have to.


I saw your post this morning, and didn't have time to respond. Your bitch didn't decide to be pregnant, that's your decision, she can't choose how much experience, you have, or not, your choice all round, agreed?



LolasMum said:


> With respect to all opinions, whether informative, negative or nothing better to do than analyse comments and pick parts to criticise, it's fairly obvious that I shouldn't have thought for a nano second that this site was set up to assist a live situation, rather to opine on the pros and cons of breeding. I understand that now, but before I leave, some points to consider. Your actions will serve to drive less tenacious and caring people than I to think "what's the point in asking questions" and just crack on regardless. The whole point of a "thread" in a "forum" is meant to be to answer questions with helpful suggestions. I consulted professionals before deciding what to do, if you guys are pros, you need to work on your bedside manner. Finally, I trust and hope that your message gets across to those that matter - the folk that breed with pound signs in their eyes, and a suffering bitch. Feel free to dissect the above with the knowledge that it'll give me a laugh.


Did you consider what your actions might have? How you may encourage people to breed indiscriminately? Just asking, because there are a lot of people who breed without health tests in place, not knowing whether conformation will be an issue, and claiming their dogs are of a lovely temperament, and yet those self same dogs, are not taken anywhere to prove that, other than their *known* environment. I can take my dogs to a show, competition, or out working, and they behave themselves impeccably, they're all ratbags to me, particularly the youngest one, but they are all lovely characters.



LolasMum said:


> To those who have posted friendly informative replies Thank you from the bottom of my heart. To those "keyboard gangsters" who have nothing better to do than slander and put the fear of god into you I suggest you have a good think about the purpose of these forums. Are their Administrators who view these threads and pick up on what can only be described as "cyber bullying"? Yes I admire your passion regarding backyard breeders as I myself have strong opinions on this. Are any of you trained vets? Prior to mating Lola we consulted both the breeder we purchased her from and the vet. Both agreed there was nothing that would indicate we shouldn't allow her to have one litter and that in fact it could be good for her. Furthermore the vet is of the opinion that "hybrid/mixed breeds" have far less problems than full pedigree dogs. Lola is a much loved family pet and we always intended having her dressed following her litter. We have consulted the vet throughout the pregnancy and will continue to do so. I wrongly surmised I would have gained friends and a positive experience on a pet friendly forum. The minority have made this a negative experience when my main concern at this time is for our beloved pet. Incidentally to the "haters" everyone has to start out somewhere as did you!! To those friendlier responses again thank you very much. I shall be speaking to admin about what is nothing more than a which hunt to a new member. With that I bid you goodbye to go care for Lola who indeed is my main focus at this time.


Having a litter is good for your bitch? What if it killed her? How good would it be for her then?

Oh my Lord, if I hear one more time that hybrid/mixed breeds are guaranteed to be healthier, I swear I'm turn tee total (ok, maybe not) but honestly, honestly, there is no guarantee, and without the knowledge of what you're doing, you may end up with the worst of two breeds, not the best of both. You won't suffer, but the pups may.

I do wish your girl the best, but please, I sincerely do, and I hope any resultant pups do inherit the good genes, but please take your time to read through and realise just what a silly risk you've put your girl through, and what a gamble you've made on behalf of the unborn pups.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Sounds like the OP's vet did a great disservice to both them and their dog by suggesting having a litter would be good for their dog. I'm amazed that some vets still perpetuate this myth and even more that the RCVS haven't cracked down on this misinformation. OP has copped a lot of flack that I can't disagree with, but that would happen on any dog forum. There's a wealth of knowledge here from experienced dog breeders, which probably would have been better sourced before mating. At least by sticking around they good glean some valuable info regarding the whelping process, which would help both them and their girl.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Are there any relevant health tests for these breeds?
> 
> If yes - did you ensure they were done on both parent dogs...?
> 
> Sorry, but I don't think the reasons you give are enough to breed, not with the rescues packed with lovely dogs with equally sweet natures


That may be true, and I 100%, but the deed is done and puppies on the way. Not a great deal can be done now other than offer advice.

To the OP - I hope the birth goes well.


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

How's Lola doing today?


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

I have read this thread through this morning and feel very sad that again someone who has asked for help, to quote snoringbear, "has copped a lot of flak" and has stated that they feel bullied and will be leaving the Forum. 
If people are frightened off and are afraid to ask for help and advice, this could be seen as doing the dog a disservice and is not helpful to the OP or their dog(s) 
I only joined this forum in May and have had a lot of valuable advice and support, and
whilst I recognise that a lot of people on this forum love dogs and are passionate about what they see as irresponsible and uncaring breeders/ownership, could we all take a minute when posting to think that people post on here at a time when they are concerned and may be feeling vulnerable and offer advice, support and information in a more empathetic way.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Ann Elizabeth said:


> I have read this thread through this morning and feel very sad that again someone who has asked for help, to quote snoringbear, "has copped a lot of flak" and has stated that they feel bullied and will be leaving the Forum.
> If people are frightened off and are afraid to ask for help and advice, this could be seen as doing the dog a disservice and is not helpful to the OP or their dog(s)
> I only joined this forum in May and have had a lot of valuable advice and support, and
> whilst I recognise that a lot of people on this forum love dogs and are passionate about what they see as irresponsible and uncaring breeders/ownership, could we all take a minute when posting to think that people post on here at a time when they are concerned and may be feeling vulnerable and offer advice, support and information in a more empathetic way.


Empathetic? How can I be asked to show empathy to someone or something I would never do? I will NEVER understand someone who just breeds for the sake of it, just because they can, as I've said before everytime you CHOSE to mate your bitch you put her life and the puppies lives at risk. What I see IS irresponsible and uncaring. Sorry for not being fluffy they CHOSE to mate their bitch they CHOSE to want puppies so I'm sorry if they feel vulnerable then they are the ones who made the choice and put themselves in that position.

Do you know my heart breaks for people who have blood sweat and tears in to a breeding, done sometimes years of research, all the health test, all the temperament tests, work their dogs, and show their dogs and breed with a purpose and reason other than supplying their family and friends with a pup, and things go wrong for them, they may have taken years to decide to use their bitch, paid vast amounts of money for DNA tests, and health test and temperament test those people have my heart felt sympathies because they did the work and did every thing they can to protect their bitch and their puppies. Those that just throw two dogs together after a quick vet check I'm sorry I'm not going to be fluffy too.. They CHOSE to do this....

I do think I think a lot before I post, and my thoughts are with the bitch each and every time in this situation...

Do you honestly think the OP will get a different reception anywhere else? She says herself she hasn't..

I'd rather speak it how I see it than pussy foot around someone because it's already done.. I don't agree with what OP has done, I do hope that the Mum and every puppy is safe, but I won't sit by and say nothing, that the reason we have some many BYB's and puppy farms...

Here we go with the "bullied" label, just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean your bullied people just don't agree with you, it's simple...


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Ann Elizabeth said:


> I have read this thread through this morning and feel very sad that again someone who has asked for help, to quote snoringbear, "has copped a lot of flak" and has stated that they feel bullied and will be leaving the Forum.
> *If people are frightened off and are afraid to ask for help and advice, this could be seen as doing the dog a disservice and is not helpful to the OP or their dog(s) *
> I only joined this forum in May and have had a lot of valuable advice and support, and
> whilst I recognise that a lot of people on this forum love dogs and are passionate about what they see as irresponsible and uncaring breeders/ownership, could we all take a minute when posting to think that people post on here at a time when they are concerned and may be feeling vulnerable and offer advice, support and information in a more empathetic way.


I completely agree.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> I completely agree.


As I have said time and time again, the person will get the advise and help they need, because that's the kind of forum this it, and from people who don't agree with what they are doing and it will be good advise, and I would hope OP would have the balls to stick around and get that advise, but again I'm still not going to be seen to condone what OP has done as I personally would see I'm doing the dog a disservice by pretending it's all okay....

I would rather one person stopped and read a thread like this and didn't do it, or someone who had read it and thought, okay I made a mistake, I won't do it again, I understand why people are getting so upset...


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

....and here we go again, yet another numpty breeding with zero ethics , with zero research and with zero knowledge .......frankly I'm not going to pussy foot around saying fluffy stuff to those that simply perpetuate the misery of irresponsible breeding.

Breeding is a HUGE responsibility take a look here

Scheme requirements and recommendatons

And here :

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/breeding_Advisory_Council_standard_for_breeders.pdf

For a clue to the kind of standards you should be achieving ......and if you are not prepared to do the VERY BEST for your bitch and her pups then don't breed


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

this post isn't even aimed anywhere near the OP but...
how the hell can you say anyone on here has been bullied? do you not know what bullying actually is? because this ain't it!
after spending years looking after someone who DID get bullied (to the point she wanted her life to end) that is one thing that Really annoys me. just because someone says something that you don't like doesn't make them a bloody bully!
thats a word thats thrown about far too frequently on this forum and frankly i'm sick of it. but if you think this is bullying, i really am glad you have no actual bullying to compare to.

the info is here to help the OP should they chose to come back, if not, then they'll hvae a great time trying to find and vet Good homes for puppies- and from my experience you can't be doing that with wafer thin skin!


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## Sarah89 (May 5, 2013)

Sadly it looks like Lolasmum has decided to leave the forum and all I can do is hope and pray mum and pups are ok and that the OP will come back if she has any concerns so she can get the advice her dog and puppies need. 


I am 110% against irresponsible breeding, but by jumping down peoples' throats it is only going to make them think we are a bunch of mad animal folk and seek advice elsewhere; namely the vet and breeder who have misled them in the first place. Consequently, Lola may go on to have further litters after this if everything goes well rather than coming to terms with the fact that breeding from her is really a terrible idea. 

Also, as passionate as people may feel about someone's decision to breed or consideration of it, is it really necessary to all jump on the bandwagon spouting off the same thing? If I was someone who was interested in breeding my dog because I was of the opinion it was good for her/ shes pretty/ well tempered/its fun and I read this thread, I'd run a mile but probably still do it anyway. So I disagree with anyone who says they have a responsibility to educate onlookers. This ain't the way to go about it.

You can't educate people by ranting and criticising, no matter how right you are. Imagine if I went up to someone in a fast food outlet and started yelling at them what damage they were doing, the nhs can't cope and my taxes shouldn't go to paying for them to get treatment when their diet leads to illness! Do you think they would change their ways? Probably not. Would they think I'm mad. I'd say so. 

Lolasmum if you are still reading this, I hope you will come back and let us know how Lola is doing and that the knowledgable folk on here will help with any of your concerns. I also sincerely hope you have come to realise the risks you have taken with your dog. I have no doubt you love her dearly, but breeding mixed breeds is a dodgy one as you don't know what genetics the parents have and if both breeds are prone to the same conditions, the pups could get a double dose of that gene. Its much more complicated than the average Joe Blogg like you and I can comprehend. 

Good luck!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sarah89 said:


> Sadly it looks like Lolasmum has decided to leave the forum and all I can do is hope and pray mum and pups are ok and that the OP will come back if she has any concerns so she can get the advice her dog and puppies need.
> 
> I am 110% against irresponsible breeding, but by jumping down peoples' throats it is only going to make them think we are a bunch of mad animal folk and seek advice elsewhere; namely the vet and breeder who have misled them in the first place. Consequently, Lola may go on to have further litters after this if everything goes well rather than coming to terms with the fact that breeding from her is really a terrible idea.
> 
> ...


She has been on line today so hardly left..............

So you would chose just to say "oh well there there how can we help, lets jsut ignore all the wrong and pretend it didn't happen? Nothing wrong what so ever with what you have done."

Umm what have people choosing to do what they want to their bodies have to do with someone using a dog? Dogs don't have free choice, a person chose to take them to another dog and allow them to mate, not just once but 4 times. Savvy enough to know they didn't tie..

You may disagree, no one is asking you too agree, but again I'm not just going to sit back and say " there there there are people being mean to you, don't worry about it it's all fine".

FYI don't know about anyone else but I am a mad animal person


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## Sarah89 (May 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> She has been on line today so hardly left..............
> 
> So you would chose just to say "oh well there there how can we help, lets jsut ignore all the wrong and pretend it didn't happen? Nothing wrong what so ever with what you have done."
> 
> ...


Did I say 'oh dear there we go its happened now?' No- so I suggest you re-read what I said because I clearly do not agree with what is being done.

Are you telling me you were born knowing what is responsible breeding is and at no point in your life you wouldn't of considered it yourself? Obviously at some point you became educated in this matter, but most people currently aren't. Ranting is not going to teach anybody anything as humans will automatically go on the defensive and deny what they have done.

I entirely agree with you that this pup should not of been bred so no need to start on me either, especially if you aren't going to bother to read what I actually wrote.


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## Sarah89 (May 5, 2013)

Also for the record there are people out there who also consider themselves 'mad animal lovers' but are of the opinion that anyone who keeps animals as 'pets' are selfish and not genuine animal lovers. So where do you draw the line? Its a big bad world out there and although I agree with your stance, it is sadly, just your opinion.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

Sarah89 said:


> Did I say 'oh dear there we go its happened now?' No- so I suggest you re-read what I said because I clearly do not agree with what is being done.
> 
> Are you telling me you were born knowing what is responsible breeding is and at no point in your life you wouldn't of considered it yourself? Obviously at some point you became educated in this matter, but most people currently aren't. Ranting is not going to teach anybody anything as humans will automatically go on the defensive and deny what they have done.
> 
> I entirely agree with you that this pup should not of been bred so no need to start on me either, especially if you aren't going to bother to read what I actually wrote.


To be totally and brutally honest this forum is not as half as bad as some out there, I observed and read a few topic's before deciding to post on any of them, only doing so recently.

I am a member of one where most would honestly not think twice about advising this girl (possibly) was taken in for a spay and abort, even this far along.

I get so angry with people breeding needlessly, more angry when I realize they are amateurs coming on asking the most basic of questions who have carried out no health tests.

It's all well and good advising people and giving them good honest advice, it has to come from the heart though and you have to say whats in your heart, regardless of whether the truth stings them.

Puppy buyers are more aware of their rights now more than ever and are quite savvy when realizing all isn't well going on to seek legal damages because puppies have been born with conditions inherited. More and more people are also becoming aware of health testing due to places like this, so hopefully soon it will give people who choose to breed without doing the most basic things no platform to breed.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sarah89 said:


> Did I say 'oh dear there we go its happened now?' No- so I suggest you re-read what I said because I clearly do not agree with what is being done.
> 
> Are you telling me you were born knowing what is responsible breeding is and at no point in your life you wouldn't of considered it yourself? Obviously at some point you became educated in this matter, but most people currently aren't. Ranting is not going to teach anybody anything as humans will automatically go on the defensive and deny what they have done.
> 
> I entirely agree with you that this pup should not of been bred so no need to start on me either, especially if you aren't going to bother to read what I actually wrote.


Who said I was starting on you, I was responding in kind, you don't agree with people "ranting" that's fine, that's totally up to you. I don't agree with the " oh it's happened already" sentiment.

" I would NEVER, repeat, NEVER, have bred her unless I knew exactly what I was doing" OP exact words.

Have I considered it, yes I have only with my cats, my young female who is on the active register is being spayed next week. For one of many reasons, I have no real reason for breeding her, she's beautiful, sweet and has an amazing temperament, but she's not the most perfect example of the breed she has faults ( show critiques tell me that as well as me looking at her), I am terrified that I would lose her or the kittens I personally couldn't live with myself if that happened because I have no REAL reason for wanting kittens from her, hundreds of other breeders out there can fill the demand. I worry about the homes that they will go it to, I worry that I won't think any home is good enough for kittens. I researched breeding and genetics, I asked on here in the beginning of the year when I first joined about breeding and got great advise and help, I also spoke to other breeders cats and dogs breeders, googled it too.

I have been about long enough to know some people ( fostered dogs and cats) no matter what advise you give them before the fact will still go and do it, they know best, and they will make all the excuses in the world and get all defensive because while they might act a certain why they knew what was what from the minute they decided to take that dog to stud..

"like so many other sites, there is always one person who decides to take the moral high ground and give the distinct impression that they "know best" with a *frankly uncalled for and unwarranted suggestion that I should never have bred my dog.* "

So it's not like she wasn't aware breeding was a bad idea.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sarah89 said:


> Also for the record there are people out there who also consider themselves 'mad animal lovers' but are of the opinion that anyone who keeps animals as 'pets' are selfish and not genuine animal lovers. So where do you draw the line? Its a big bad world out there and although I agree with your stance, it is sadly, just your opinion.


Breeding cross breeds without health test and for no other reason than she's lovely is wrong, this is not just MY opinion and for the welfare of dogs I am so glad it's not just my opinion.

There are people out there who spend their whole lives making sure that the welfare of the dog, puppies and new puppies owners are their top priorities, they spend time and money researching what's best for their dogs, DNA test, health test, the best for the dog, bitch and puppies they take years to plan litters and have long waiting list for pups so I'm sorry if you think this is a rant.

I'm sick of people making excuses that not everyone knows or people are uneducated , in this day and age a tiny bit of research in the wonderful cyber world can fill you in a few days that would have taken a few years to find out. Again "" I would NEVER, repeat, NEVER, have bred her unless I knew exactly what I was doing""


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## Sarah89 (May 5, 2013)

Never said that the OP shouldn't be told truthfully that they shouldn't of done what they did. I just don't see how the responses are going to change their mindset. If it were me, I'd probably be all the more determined to keep breeding, but I can be a stubborn cow and don't like being told I'm wrong at times!

Humans are well, human. We mess up all the time and need to be put on the right path in the right way. I hate hate hate seeing all these litters of pups being bred with no consideration for the dogs and it makes my blood boil. But at the same time, a simple bit of rewording of things can transform peoples' views ie; less going for the jugular and more for the heart and mind. 

I don't know Lolasmum but perhaps she'd of come round to our way of thinking and made the decision not to ever do this again if she hadn't been put on the defensive from the outset. 

*Also I am refraining from posting anymore as its going to go round and round in circles. No hard feelings with anyone on here.  *


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't know much about breeding I am a rescue person; understand a need for responsible breeding I don't agree with people breeding for money, fads or whatever or care if a dog is pedigree or cross if it at least has been brought up properly as a pup and had health tests etc. c

Can't stand people just breeding while not at least having an awareness of the thousands of unwanted dogs killed each year - and thinking they are different anyone's dog could end up in that situation at least responsible owners take steps to minimise this and always take a dog back

What has prompted mr to post is the story of one staffie who we save from the pound, he went to rescue and was eventually re homed. It turns out he has a heiradatory eye condition and has had to come into rescue due to change in new owners circs. He has become dog aggressive now he is totally blind . He is not facing a bright future if only his breeders had thought of him and this eye condition when breeding from his untested parents in a few years time blind scared and unwanted 

Another friends springer had to have her eye amputated and is going blind in the other

That's not to say all dogs would get these conditions but I would hate to be someone who inflicted such conditions on other dogs.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SirHiss said:


> To be totally and brutally honest this forum is not as half as bad as some out there, I observed and read a few topic's before deciding to post on any of them, only doing so recently.
> 
> I am a member of one where most would honestly not think twice about advising this girl (possibly) was taken in for a spay and abort, even this far along.
> 
> ...


I wish you were right, but sadly I don't think you are. Why then are puppy farms still flourishing? Why are people paying over the odds for crossbreeds where no health testing has been done because they mistakenly think that mongrels are healthier than pedigrees?

And why aren't people more up in arms against vets - who SHOULD know better - letting people believe a quick five minutes with them is the OK to breed from their dog?

We are all just amateurs. Why should people, who've been to see the experts - I.e. Their vets - give a toss for what we are saying? I believe each and every vet should have the details of each breeds health tests in their surgery. Sadly vets do assure people their dogs are healthy enough to breed. Little wonder people come on here and don't understand why we slate them for not health testing.

How many other times do we shout TAKE YOUR DOG TO A VET IMMEDIATELY , yet as far as breeding is concerned, say they should have done their own research, rather than taking what their vet says as gospel.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> I wish you were right, but sadly I don't think you are. Why then are puppy farms still flourishing? Why are people paying over the odds for crossbreeds where no health testing has been done because they mistakenly think that mongrels are healthier than pedigrees?
> 
> And why aren't people more up in arms against vets - who SHOULD know better - letting people believe a quick five minutes with them is the OK to breed from their dog?
> 
> ...


There is a simple saying goes along the lines of..''A fool and his money''

I firmly believe some people turn to puppy farmers because it's either just too easy or down to ignorance along with being all too convenient as you don't get asked questions, you are not asked for vet references or whatever and no one wants your life story, or wants to know how many years of experience you have with your chosen breed.

You ask any dog savvy person on here, they are more than aware of their rights as a puppy buyer, it's been spoken about and pointed out on another recent topic, thousands of other people probably know or are aware of the same, people may not have been aware years ago, however people are becoming more clued in, they are asking more questions and seeking out the right breeders and reputable rescues.

It may not be apparent to you, it is becoming slowly very apparent to me, nowdays people are being more careful with their money and making sure before they spend it, it's going on a worthy and suitable companion.

Of course we are all amateurs, we never actually stop learning, yet there is a vast difference between basic common sense and amateurism. If you were armed with all the facts, the probabilities and the maybe's then you simply would not be here asking about a temperature rise or drop as anyone with an ounce of knowledge, or someone whom had done their research would know the answer or probabilities anyway.

Anyone breeding a litter because their bitch has a ''great'' temperament or ''good'' nature simply isn't someone armed with all the facts and knowledge to realize they shouldn't be breeding in the first place, a little more has to go into the mix than just that alone They are simply doing it for their own selfish gain, whatever that may be, certainly not for the good of their own bitch or her ''great'' temperament.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> ...............*Anyone breeding a litter because their bitch has a ''great'' temperament or ''good'' nature simply isn't someone armed with all the facts and knowledge to realize they shouldn't be breeding in the first place,* a little more has to go into the mix than just that alone They are simply doing it for their own selfish gain, whatever that may be, certainly not for the good of their own bitch or her ''great'' temperament.


I am just saying what I was told and not offering a personal opinion re the bold bit as I really don't know much about it so feel free to correct anything.

When I was researching breeding lines to get a pup to help Mia with her difficulties I took advice from breed rescue, breed club, vet and behaviourist. As the temperament of the pup would be paramount I was advised by all of them to go to the most experienced breeder I could find that is proven to breed for temperament. They all said this was because breeding from two dogs with good temperament does not guarantee pups will be the same. A good natured dog may be a one off in it's lines and can throw spiky pups because of what's in it's background or two apparently sweet dogs may produce pups that are so timid they suffer in that way. I was told that a good breeder chooses to pair dogs with complimentary personalities and traits to produce balanced pups. This may mean pairing a dog that is a bit spiky or bold with a much more timid or submissive one to get something in the middle and it can take years of experience and knowledge to get this right.
It is true that the good breeders I know watch dogs they are interested in and study any progeny to see how they develop to gauge what predominant genes they pass on before using them or get to know lines so well they can have a damn good guess if the dog is unproven.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

It is true that puppy buyers are becoming more 'dog savvy' ....In the past it was rare for prospective puppy buyers to ask about health testing but now most of mine do and a few even ask what the COI of the litter will be ...it's totally great that people's expectations are raised like this after all puppies are not cheap ..... even designer 'oodle doodles' are several hundred pounds , there really is no excuse for breeders to continue to breed without doing at least basic testing .

The Internet has been a great source of information, the old excuses for not registering pups , issuing contracts or doing more than a quick once over by the local vet are no longer believed in the same way and legislation to further raise breeding standards is only a matter of time .......


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## LolasMum (Sep 23, 2013)

I have read all the responses and do wish I had researched it more prior to breeding. I checked with vet, who told me cross breeds can be healthier than pedigree's and Lola was in perfect health to have one litter. It was always my intention to have one litter only prior to being spayed. I spoke to Lola's breeder who is registered with the Local Authority who breeds both pedigree and cross breeds. She also advised it would be good for her to have one litter. I also spoke at length to the stud dog owner a breeder for many years who also breeds both pedigree and cross breeds before coming to a decision. For the record the only reason I initially posted on here was the stud owner was unavailable at the time. She assisted me throughout and even stayed overnight whilst Lola was giving birth.

I am happy to say Lola gave birth to 5 healthy puppies on Saturday morning. We have 3 boys, 2 girls who are all going to friends and family. Lola gave birth naturally and is a wonderful Mother.

This will indeed be my last post and the reason for posting was to stop members worrying about Lola. 

Everyone has options and opinions in life and I chose to listen to the viewpoint of my vet who in my opinion knows best. The experience of this site has been a negative one due to certain members hostility and judgemental attitudes. What I have taken from this is you get certain animal rights activists etc who take things too far. Clearly this is the same on a breeding forum, yes be passionate about your beliefs but some members are neurotic. Some contributors to this site seem to having nothing better to do with their lives than spout their diatribe in the follorn hope that one day everybody will believe them. The only thing missing from this thread seems to be opinions on religion, racism and the state of pop music in the year 2013. And the award for the comment that made me laugh the most was the persons "definition" of bullying. Believe me bullying takes many different forms, as does brainwashing. And yes you gave just bullied me off this site.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

> I spoke to Lola's breeder who is registered with the Local Authority who breeds both pedigree and cross breeds.





> I also spoke at length to the stud dog owner a breeder for many years who also breeds both pedigree and cross breeds


Why am I not surprised at this? :nonod:


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Hi lolasmum very pleased to hear lola safely delivered 5 puppies and that mum and puppies are all doing well. Enjoy the puppies the next few weeks will fly I kept a pup from lily's litter she is now 4 months old and is absolutely lovely (also a little madam at times) . Thank you for letting us know all is well good luck.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2013)

LolasMum said:


> I have read all the responses and do wish I had researched it more prior to breeding. I checked with vet, who told me cross breeds can be healthier than pedigree's and Lola was in perfect health to have one litter. It was always my intention to have one litter only prior to being spayed. I spoke to Lola's breeder who is registered with the Local Authority who breeds both pedigree and cross breeds. She also advised it would be good for her to have one litter. I also spoke at length to the stud dog owner a breeder for many years who also breeds both pedigree and cross breeds before coming to a decision. For the record the only reason I initially posted on here was the stud owner was unavailable at the time. She assisted me throughout and even stayed overnight whilst Lola was giving birth.
> 
> I am happy to say Lola gave birth to 5 healthy puppies on Saturday morning. We have 3 boys, 2 girls who are all going to friends and family. Lola gave birth naturally and is a wonderful Mother.
> 
> ...


Firstly, I am glad your dog delivered safely.

As for the rest it's complete and utter claptrap.

I have a flatcoat cross, I'm not rushing out to breed her and if I wanted an opinion on breeding I certainly would not ask my vet, breeding is one thing they just do not happen to know a lot about. They save lives and treat illnesses, that is all.
The whole 'it will be good for them to have one litter' is a myth, your dog or mine, certainly does not crave to be a mother, they are no better off for it.

The one fact your vet didn't seem to mention, is that it can change a dog and sometimes not for the better.

There's nothing 'animal rights activist' about my post, that is utterly ridiculous, nor have you been bullied, that is just a figment of your imagination, you just read what you didn't want to, is all:001_rolleyes:


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

lolasmum- that was what i was gettuing at- you took this advise from two commercial breeders who breed for an income to be registered with the local council...

for the record- these asre not the types of breeders who typically have the dogs best interests at heart and is in fact the same type of breeder who encouraged my to breed my mix (who i bought from her) to another of her studs and ultimitely lose two pups to a hereditory defect.

enjoy the next few weeks- then things get difficult!
and keep an eye out for signs of eclampsia etc as with the maltese in her she will be more susceptible than some other breeds would be...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

LolasMum said:


> I have read all the responses and do wish I had researched it more prior to breeding. I checked with vet, who told me cross breeds can be healthier than pedigree's and Lola was in perfect health to have one litter. It was always my intention to have one litter only prior to being spayed. *I spoke to Lola's breeder who is registered with the Local Authority who breeds both pedigree and cross breeds*.
> 
> Oh dear - sounds like she is a puppy farmer!
> 
> ...


I'm glad your girl and the puppies came safely, but you still have a long road ahead of you. It sounds like the place you got your girl from (and the stud dog you used) were puppy farmers which brings into question the quality of your girl and the puppies - non health tested and clearly bred for money.
Time will tell - health now is a very small part - it will not be until the puppies have gone to their new homes and in years to come that you can say they are healthy. Unfortunately, they haven't had the best start. You are not being bullied, but this is not the way to breed.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Oh dear. Both the breeder and stud dog owner are most definitely puppy farmers, the worst kind of breeders imagineable. Anyone who breeds multiple breeds/crosses and is council licensed always sets the alarm bells ringing. I don't think the advice from anyone who treats dogs like this is worth squat http://www.puppylovecampaigns.org/


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow, obviously the message about unethical breeding still isn't getting out there. Either that, or people are deliberately ignoring it because they see the ££££ signs flashing when they look at their (supposedly) beloved dog. Get over yourself & grow a pair, OP, you are not being bullied, you are being told cold, hard facts.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Really can't stand it when people act like victims, makes a mockery of those who really are persecuted 

OP you bred for no reason other than money, you took advise from a puppy farmer and a Vet who would have no in depth formal training in husbandry and I bet none in companion animal breeding. While I'm happy Mother and babies are well you'll get no sympathy from me, that goes to the poor brood bitches your puppy farmer has,your bitch and those puppies and any future pups your bitch has and their puppies puppies because I know all these bitches will end up having at least one litter!!!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

The 'bullying' card won't work, LOLA'S MUM.

Nobody has been rude to you.

Nobody has been insulting to you.


Everybody has been honest and given you *facts*. Now, if you really think that is 'bullying' then you must be so hypersensitive it's a wonder you can interact with anyone either online or out in the real world.

Your vet and breeder led you astray - why can't you just accept that


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sorry folks, but I think the OP is more of the innocent party here than you are accepting.

If a person cannot turn to their breeder or their vet, who can they turn to? An internet forum?? Sorry, but where are our qualifications on here? (That's not to say that everyone's not right on this thread, they are, but the OP, and others like her, don't know us from Adam!)

When a person starts to think about breeding, who is the first person that they are advised to contact? Their BREEDER! 

Ok, so in this instance the breeder is not a good example, and the vet needs shooting, but the OP did not just mate her dog with the dog next door and hope for the best - like very, very many people do.

I do think some of the 'advice' on here has been given in quite a harsh way - hopefully the OP will enjoy this litter of puppies, and be very wary of breeding again. 

I think someone on here once said you catch more flies with honey - information can be given in a way to convert someone to the cause. It can also be given in a sanctimonious way to make them completely deaf to the advice given.

Ok - go on now - shoot me!


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Sorry folks, but I think the OP is more of the innocent party here than you are accepting.
> 
> If a person cannot turn to their breeder or their vet, who can they turn to? An internet forum?? Sorry, but where are our qualifications on here? (That's not to say that everyone's not right on this thread, they are, but the OP, and others like her, don't know us from Adam!)
> 
> ...


Actually, I don't believe that, in anyway at all.

If you can find the time to Google a Pet Forum, you can find the time to research before breeding, just so you are armed with all the facts.

Surely, someone cannot be that naive not to know, if someone has a lot of crossbreed or pedigree litters available and has to be a registered with the local authority, something isn't quite right? Something also tells me Lolasmum, isn't quite that stupid.

Where do qualifications come into it? If complete strangers come here for advice surrounding breeding, something is amiss somewhere? Maybe breakdown in communications between a breeder and a puppy buyer, so that begs the question, should those people be breeding in the first place? Should good, honest, knowledgeable breeders be encouraging that?

If that is the case, why should good honest breeders who have given blood sweat and tears testing their own dogs, painstakingly researched their lines, traveled all around the country showing their dogs, putting all the work in, give out valued, knowledgeable advice based on years and years of experience in breeding and doing everything right to people who just don't care? What good does it serve, aside from making someone else a few extra quid and flooding the market with untested, poorly bred, and possible sick puppies, I myself will never encourage that.

Sickening really, when you can see the other side.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Ok 

Another scenario. Someone comes on here and says my dog has 'x' wrong with it.

Unless it's something really obvious the first response is normally 'this is an internet forum - we are amateurs, you must take your dog to a vet!'

In other words, the poster is directed to a professional!

So why is someone to assume that their vet is not knowledgeable about breeding? And why should that not be the average Joe's first point of call? Why should Google be believed instead of their vet? 

I really really agree with you about too many dogs being indiscriminately bred, but I don't think we can expect people to self educate. We need vets to be clued up and giving the correct advice - telling people to ignore their vet is counter intuitive!


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Ok
> 
> Another scenario. Someone comes on here and says my dog has 'x' wrong with it.
> 
> ...


Vets are trained and qualified to treat specific illnesses in animals, not many vets, unless they are breeders themselves know anything about breeding. I know my own vet does not, yet he can tell you whats wrong with your animal and offer up treatments. As a vet, he's good, I trust him implicitly, yet I would not approach him for breeding advice as he's one of your ''good old mongrel'' vets, I don't happen to believe that either.

If you animal is ill, where is your first port of call? Your vet. In what could be a life or death situation concerning an illness it would be extremely dangerous to offer up medical advice over an internet forum.

Problem is with breeding, someone chooses to put their animal in that state, it's not an illness that requires veterinary treatment, I do appreciate it can turn into a medical emergency, at the end of the day though we are not sat there with someone else's dog, we can't see how ill they are, or how close to labour they are, all boils down to research again and common sense.

You can never know too much, the danger is knowing too little!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

It's quite an interesting point really.

I would not go to my vet for advice on what health tests are necessary before breeding my dog. He would not have a clue.

I would go to my vet to make sure my dog was fit to be breed as in general good health and no obvious abnormalities which would affect a pregnancy. I doubt I'd wait until there was a problem during whelping to call him in. 

So a vet can and does advise on breeding. 

It's a bit like raw feeding - people expect their vets to be nutritional experts, and unfortunately are disappointed. Although many go ahead regardless, others have such faith in their vets - or are too scared to go against their advice - that they continue with a commercial diet.

I know this is going off track, but I think we should be a little easier when people have taken the advice of 'experts' - people who I believe should be capable of giving correct advice. It's just a shame that many aren't.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> We need vets to be clued up and giving the correct advice - telling people to ignore their vet is counter intuitive!


I would tell people to ignore their vet about feeding, breeding and a lot of the time natural remedies and many other thing, behavioral issues, specific breed issues etc.. If your dog is ill or injured the Vet each and every time other than that there is very little I would go to my Vet for advise about.

If we look at it in terms of people because that's where everyone seems to direct things when your talking about dogs lol You go to your GP for general health issues, they might or might not be able to spot and treat it, if it's something major or something that requires specialist knowledge you will be referred, my GP readily admits he can't read my MRI's when he gets them back, that why I go to a trauma consultant to get treatment. I have a male GP and he sends me to a female GP when I go about contraception because he knows nothing about it, he does prostates as he says females as a rule don't go to a male GP about women stuff, they send you to a nutritionist if your issues are down to food, a specialist for depression or mental issues, specialist for pediatrics, mid wife blah blah blah I'm sure you get the drift.

I think it's great that some people can give others the benefit of the doubt BUT being involved in the dog and cats for so long ( rescue etc) I've rarely come across people who have the litter for the reason they say, and rarely tell the truth around it, even if their Vet had said bad idea etc they would still do it, so I guess that's why I maybe come down hard on people.

I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, if you really want to do something right in this day and age their is no excuse not to be educated if you have the internet. Everything can be googled and I think you'd be hard pushed to find anything that said it's good for bitches to have at least one litter


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Sorry folks, but I think the OP is more of the innocent party here than you are accepting.
> 
> If a person cannot turn to their breeder or their vet, who can they turn to? An internet forum?? Sorry, but where are our qualifications on here? (That's not to say that everyone's not right on this thread, they are, but the OP, and others like her, don't know us from Adam!)
> 
> ...


Far from shooting you I've given you rep, this is probably the most sensible post in the entire thread, so well put, and I wholeheartedly agree.!!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> Far from shooting you I've given you rep, this is probably the most sensible post in the entire thread, so well put, and I wholeheartedly agree.!!


Thank you!!


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

Give it 6 weeks when they are weeing and pooing and the family and friends that said they would have a puppy have messed you about and then see if you think you were being bullied .


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> I think someone on here once said you catch more flies with honey - information can be given in a way to convert someone to the cause. It can also be given in a sanctimonious way to make them completely deaf to the advice given.


Never a truer word said!!! I have seen this time and time again on various forums discussing various subjects and there is absolutely no doubt that trying to discuss something in an understanding manner is definitely more likely to get listened to. We constantly talk about positive reinforcement being the right way to teach dogs rather than negative and so I don't understand why we don't think this works with people too.

I have to confess that often if I pressed "Submit Reply" with many of my replies my comments would fall on deaf ears too, but nowadays (been round the block too much) I do try and stop and think about how receptive the OP would be to my comments (or how receptive I would be if the shoe were on the other food).

BessieDog, hope you don't mind but I am going to steal that comment and reuse elsewhere


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just to be clear:


Nobody started off by being 'harsh' to the OP. If things became fraught it is because the OP actively REFUSED to take on board that she had not done the best for her girl.

I stated in my last post that the OP had been led astray by her vet and breeder. However, only the OP is to blame for her attitude and refusal to listen to common sense and candour.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Wow what a sad thread.

I don't have any sympathy for the OP, nor do I think they are an innocent victim. I think the OP is someone who has been extremely naive and has not done their research at all. They have not done their research right from the moment they decided they wanted a dog in the first place - this is clear from the fact that they got their dog from someone who is obviously a puppy farmer.

OP if you are not sure what a puppy farmer is - here's an eye opener: Home

It is NOT hard nowadays to find at least a half decent breeder, and it is certainly NOT hard to figure out what a puppy farmer is in this day and age, there have even been TV programmes on how to avoid them and exposés on them!

ALL the information is out there, people just don't have the gumption to research thoroughly beforehand. A simple google search of 'How to find a good dog breeder' brings up these brilliant results on the first page:

Finding the right breeder

How to Find a Good Dog Breeder | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

The Dog Trainer : How to Find a Good Dog Breeder :: Quick and Dirty Tips

How to Find a Responsible Dog Breeder : The Humane Society of the United States

How to Choose a Dog Breeder: 6 Steps - wikiHow

That would have told the OP all they needed to know about finding a decent breeder who would at least have had healthy, good quality breeding stock and could have acted as a real mentor should the OP have decided to breed from their good quality puppy, who may already be genetically clear of many diseases.

The correct information is SO easy to find these days that I truly struggle to sympathise with anyone who lines the pockets of a BYB or puppy farmer, let alone anyone who does that and then decides to breed from said puppy farmed cross breed dog with zero genetic health tests 

And call me a cynic, but the vet WOULD say it's a good idea for a bitch to have a litter, think of the custom he will gain from it!!!! All those check ups, the potential for a c-section, puppy check ups, jabs, health care for puppies or bitch that could become ill, plus the 5 new customers he will gain if the puppies stay local.... to the vet its a GREAT idea. He could upgrade his hotel in the Maldives from a 5 star to a 6 star


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

So glad to read the pups arrived safely OP and you'll have your hands full in the next few weeks I'm sure. Enjoy every minute because it all goes far too quickly. It would have been lovely to see pics but since you've been put off I know that won't happen now. 

Shame the thread turned into yet another debate, since from the first post the deed was done. Seems the OP was hoodwinked by the very people she thought would advise wisely and I know vets often encourage breeding if they know that's what the clients intentions are. My own vet (who I adore and have been with for years) never once suggested mismate, in fact advised against it at such a late stage when I found out Kali was pregnant. Never once mentioned health testing mum and dad - even though the deed was done, I had them tested later for some guide as to what future their pups may have but not because the vet suggested it. Everyone one at the practice was chuffed to bits at the litter, made heaps of fuss and no one even hinted that it was a mating that should have been avoided. I suppose if your vet thinks its okay, so does the breeder and the stud owner most people would take that advice as read, not everyone is au fait with surfing the net, or members of dog forums. I had the Internet for years before I ever looked for a dog forum, many dog owners probably never even think about forums if they have advice from people they think to be knowledgable. 

Shame the OP won't post anymore as there's more to raising a litter than just the birth - some of us may have been able to help mum and pups as well as the OP, especially as she is probably now getting advice from dubious sorces. 

I understand the point that other people may read the thread and gain knowledge from posts about avoiding breeding but how often does that really happen do you think? What IS happening is a litter is being reared without our support and guidance, which may have benefitted the dogs in question but rather get a point across and wash hands of the consequences to those dogs. 
Never have agreed with that philosophy and never understand how that benefits anyone other than those who feels their point is more worthy than the welfare of the dogs in question. OP, if you do come back and have any questions you don't want to post you can pm me and I'll try to help. 

Yet another litter abandoned by our dog loving forum members.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Malmum said:


> So glad to read the pups arrived safely OP and you'll have your hands full in the next few weeks I'm sure. Enjoy every minute because it all goes far too quickly. It would have been lovely to see pics but since you've been put off I know that won't happen now.
> 
> Shame the thread turned into yet another debate, since from the first post the deed was done. Seems the OP was hoodwinked by the very people she thought would advise wisely and I know vets often encourage breeding if they know that's what the clients intentions are. My own vet (who I adore and have been with for years) never once suggested mismate, in fact advised against it at such a late stage when I found out Kali was pregnant. Never once mentioned health testing mum and dad - even though the deed was done, I had them tested later for some guide as to what future their pups may have but not because the vet suggested it. Everyone one at the practice was chuffed to bits at the litter, made heaps of fuss and no one even hinted that it was a mating that should have been avoided. I suppose if your vet thinks its okay, so does the breeder and the stud owner most people would take that advice as read, not everyone is au fait with surfing the net, or members of dog forums. I had the Internet for years before I ever looked for a dog forum, many dog owners probably never even think about forums if they have advice from people they think to be knowledgable.
> 
> ...


Rep for this!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I haven't really looked at this site in any depth for a while and just thought I'd have a read today.

It's sad to see things haven't changed.....there's still the minority who feel they know all about the ethics of breeding, and in fact, they are really just ignorant and rude. 

Instead of shooting people down because it makes them feel superior they should try actually helping! 

They're sad......very sad


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Darth said:


> I haven't really looked at this site in any depth for a while and just thought I'd have a read today.
> 
> It's sad to see things haven't changed.....there's still the minority who feel they know all about the ethics of breeding, and in fact, they are really just ignorant and rude.
> 
> ...


Gosh yes - silly us! Fancy us speaking out against people who breed without doing all they can to ensure that the pups grow up healthy!

The only 'sad' thing here is those of you who think it's fine to condone careless breeding. Go and walk round a rescue sometime, why don't you.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

I actually think the opposite Darth. 

I had visited this forum for a few years and thought that it was weighted by people supporting Back Yard Breeders and irresponsible breeding and so I wouldn't join. 
Earlier this year I noticed that the tone had noticably changed and the general concensus was for responsible breeding and so I became a member.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

There's better ways to help people breed responsibly than being obnoxious and rude.

How can you educate them by ridiculing what they've already done and scaring them off, never to return to learn a better way to breed? 

I've been to rescues and I've rehomed from them too. I've also bred litters ethically from health tested parents. I've worked and shown dogs for over 35 years. 

Quite honestly you need to shut up and give your brain a chance to kick in!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Darth said:


> There's better ways to help people breed responsibly than being obnoxious and rude.
> 
> How can you educate them by ridiculing what they've already done and scaring them off, never to return to learn a better way to breed?
> 
> ...


Oh sorry so tell me how to help people and educate them again, was it something to do with not being obnoxious and rude, hmmm and not ridiculing them!

Well see you don't practice what you preach hey Darth, now why does the word hypocrite come to mind, you might want to take your last line and apply it to yourself  and the fact you have bred and shown for 35 years shows nothing except you might have done it longer than some, time served is not an indication of a knowledge and respect, you could have done it really bad for 35 years and people who have only been in it a few years could be doing it better with more understanding and knowledge. Just say.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

*"There's better ways to help people breed responsibly than being obnoxious and rude.
Quite honestly you need to shut up and give your brain a chance to kick in!"*

Goodness me, I haven't seen anyone be obnoxious or rude apart from you. Don't think that this board has lost much by your absence...................


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Darth said:


> There's better ways to help people breed responsibly than being *obnoxious and rude.
> *
> How can you educate them by ridiculing what they've already done and scaring them off, never to return to learn a better way to breed?
> 
> ...


Thus far the only person being 'rude and obnoxious' is YOU. It's hilarious, actually!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

1. Person comes on saying I'm thinking of breeding my mediocre bitch to the non description dog next door as I've heard crossbreeds make thousands.

*let rip - point out that it's completely wrong to do so.

*
2. Person comes on to say the deed's done, just about to whelp then tut tutting is okay, but for the bitch's sake give the support and knowledge that great folks have on here that will safely bring bitch and pups through it.

I'm left with the feeling that some people would rather see the bitch and pups die. Well, that's what withholding the great support and advice this forum can give could mean.

If you want to educate people there are far better ways of doing it than jumping on one person who innocently puts their head above the parapet.

Must admit some people have gone down in my estimation during this thread. But hey Ho, I've probably gone down in theirs too.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> 1. Person comes on saying I'm thinking of breeding my mediocre bitch to the non description dog next door as I've heard crossbreeds make thousands.
> 
> *let rip - point out that it's completely wrong to do so.
> 
> ...


No one wants to see the Mother or pups die, that's rather a childish thing to say! Everyone I suspect would rather the bitch wasn't pregnant or used by people just because they can!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

BessieDog said:


> 1. Person comes on saying I'm thinking of breeding my mediocre bitch to the non description dog next door as I've heard crossbreeds make thousands.
> 
> *let rip - point out that it's completely wrong to do so.
> 
> ...


Wow.

That's a ghastly thing to say - and utterly unfair.

Advice HAS been given to the OP. But some of us don't have any and are also posting for *others* who may be 'lurking'.

Frankly, after what you've just said, I couldn't give a damn if I've 'gone down' in your estimation!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Meezey said:


> No one wants to see the Mother or pups die, that's rather a childish thing to say! Everyone I suspect would rather the bitch wasn't pregnant or used by people just because they can!


Couldn't agree more. But she was - and far past the time for the mismate jab. I really can't see the point for half the things said on the thread!

Start a new thread to educate others before they get into this situation!


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2013)

The way I see it is.

If you have enough time to join a forum and open a thread to ask questions, then you have enough time to research things before you put your bitch to stud.

There is plenty of information on the internet surrounding breeding, plenty of books you can buy to shove your nose into too.

Surf enough hours in the day, you will find misery inflicted upon thousands of bitches and their puppies to know, unless you plan to do things properly, then you shouldn't be doing things at all! 

I do feel strongly about this, having picked up the mess created by one breeder.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Because I for one am not going to just sit back and say nothing! Regardless of what people's opinions are of me! Picked up the pieces of others peoples messes to often!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Oh, and just to add, to those folk who are complaining that some of us are being blunt in our condemnation of unethical breeding:

This is an open forum.

We are entitled to express our views.

You don't like those views? Tough.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> No decent breeder nor vet would claim it is 'good' for a bitch to have a litter! And you are also saying your vet supports the notion of 'hybrid vigour'?
> 
> FIND A BETTER VET.


There was an interesting discussion on so called "hybrid vigour" at a breeding seminar I went to recently - it is being proved over and again that cross-breeding can cause more problems than it solves. The average an rolling "Labradoodle" breed average hipscores are higher than their two component breeds.

It is also technically not the "correct term" for breeding breeds of the same species - but stupidly I didn't bookmark the location where I found this article.

There ARE lots of horrible things that can go wrong when you have a litter - some the text books tell you about - others they don't  and of course - the dogs don't tend to read the books


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