# Confused about this Forum ?????????????



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

I have been Reading alot of the Threads and posts in This section about Breeding....

And I notice that some 'Newbie's' feel left out and sometime patronised when asking for Help/Advise etc...

I can fully understand this....

ok you get a 'New Breeder' on asking for advise and most get Shocking replie's. For example..''Noooo Don't do it....You a new to breeding and will NEVER be as good as me'' attitude. OR There's too many puppie's in the world..

You get all of the 'experts' knocking people ..Where on earth are they supposed to Start? All the 'Expert Breeders'' on here had their 1st litter once...

And the Flip side...When someone puts their ''New puppie pics up''

It's all...awww they are sooo cute..You are sooo lucky...Congratulations..etc etc etc you get my drift.

So it seems it's a case of.... newbie's get knocked...for thinking of breeding...Senior ''older members'' get congratulated on their new litters..

ODD


----------



## Carla-Jade (Jul 28, 2010)

pleased i dont want to breed for my girl.  1 of her is more than enough!!!


----------



## Guest (Aug 17, 2010)

I believe it is purely based on breed more than being a 1st time breeder. Like there are too many staffies in rescues so the advice would be, please dont bring more into the world at this point.

I am new to breeding, infact I have not even bred my first litter yet. However If you do research, can afford and provide for pups and have homes lined up and health test the members of this forum are more than happy for you.
:thumbup:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

People breeding responsibly are always warmly recieved on the forum whether 1st timers or experienced breeders. Those showing little knowledge, responsibility or care in their breeding are not welcomed in same way. If they are willing to take advice from the very experienced breeders on here then people are more than happy to do that, however, unfortunately recently there seems to be a lot of people who just want to brag about breeding from unhealth tested, unproven dogs (possibly to get puppy buyers without having to advertise!!) and get abusive when offered advice or questioned about it.

This dog breeding section should be here to advise and question ethical breeding as well as to support new breeders, and i think it does that. IMO, a lot of us want to prevent unhealth-tested litters of no special breeding being produced, there is a real crisis in rescues nationwide at the moment, its no good questioning someone after the pups have arrived, its best to make them aware of the issues and problems before they mate the dogs in the hopes they will rethink.


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

nothing to do with being 1st time breeders - everyone has to start somewhere.

It is because people come on here "aww I love my dog and want to breed from her she will have lovely pups as she is beautiful and well mannered. can you tell me what I need?" etc.

It is also devastating that 'mistakes' and accidents are occuring. Yet more unwanted, un health tested dogs being born. 

They have no idea what is involved, costs and a majority were not planning on health testing and finding a suitable health tested male.

As some one said...its the breed aswell.

Well researched breeders who health test get :thumbup:

ps. I am not against cross breeding either...as long as both parents are health tested and the sizes/dogs aren't too differant.


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> I have been Reading alot of the Threads and posts in This section about Breeding....
> 
> And I notice that some 'Newbie's' feel left out and sometime patronised when asking for Help/Advise etc...
> 
> ...


I think it's just best to avoid this bit


----------



## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Is it not best to advise people that sometimes breeding isn't the right option?

Of course everyone who wishes to breed must start somewhere and genuine help asked for is usually well recieved. 

The people who are usually poorly recieved are the ones who ask for advice after already breeding their dog (usually without any prior research or health tests - which is not good), or people with a bitch just come into season and want to know what to do or like others have said people with staffies (in particular) who are at crisis point.

Breeders who have done their research and are truly care about the welfare of their dogs are welcomed. You can usually tell if this is not the case by the responses of the OP to advice given - it's obvious if someone didn't actually want advice and just wanted everyone to agree with them.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> I have been Reading alot of the Threads and posts in This section about Breeding....
> 
> And I notice that some 'Newbie's' feel left out and sometime patronised when asking for Help/Advise etc...
> 
> ...


*You will find that not all members will reply on the breeding section because some,myself being one,don't agree that all dogs have to be health tested,ect ect.My attitude is if ANYONE comes on here and asks for advice that what they should get,not shot down in flames and judged.*


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> I have been Reading alot of the Threads and posts in This section about Breeding....
> 
> And I notice that some 'Newbie's' feel left out and sometime patronised when asking for Help/Advise etc...
> 
> ...


Why is telling someone not to breed their un health tested, unregistered or overbred dog, especially in times of recession like we're seeing now so puppies are remaining unsold & rescues are being bombarded with unwanted dogs, 'shocking'? It NEEDS to be said IMO, if it puts one person off breeding their dog it's doing some good. OK some people are blunter than others at getting their point across but members (whether they're experienced ethical breeders, people who pick up the pieces in rescue, or responsible dog owners such as myself) get upset when people who don't have any experience just won't listen & then get angry because they've been told some truths.


----------



## Guest (Aug 17, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *.My attitude is if ANYONE comes on here and asks for advice that what they should get,not shot down in flames and judged.*


I agree completely I even posted that in a thread about what you dislike about PF.

However as long as you are prepared to re-search and imo health test (so you are only breeding from healthy dogs) I dont think anyone in the forum would have a problem.


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

This is why i dont post much and just read instead

I have to say yes we all have to start but surely if your thinking of breeding do loads of research in your chosen breed and maybe even get a mentor thats what i did  seen to many threads when no thought as gone into it at all.


----------



## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

I think the general answers are that if you come on here and get to know members and join in for a bit first then they can get to know you better and advise whereas if you come on here and just post saying 'I want to breed my pet' this is when it gets peoples back up. 

Having said that I used to post on here about possibly breeding Akira if she did well at showing (obv having all health tests done etc) and I still managed to get slated in some posts by breeders of other breeds some people didnt want to give advice which I was more than willing to take they just wanted to cause trouble.

Anyways I will not be breeding her even though we still plan to show and have health tests done anyway.
She will be spade at 2 years old


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Many come on here with no idea of even the basics of breeding, they have done nothing more than think "My dog is a nice dog and he/she needs pups" 

A sensible, responsible person on thinking that, then does a bit of research themselves, they look at the breed/breeds they want to breed, they are obviously on the internet so there are numerous ways to find info, even a quick search of the threads on here would give any potential breeder a feel for breeding.

There are numerous threads about the rescue crisis, breeding, the heartache around pups and their mothers, the unavailability of pedigree studs for pet "breeders", the pitfalls of breeding, there are links to books and breeding sites, there are discussions ad infinitum about health testing, cross and pedigree breeding. There is a lot of good solid info, if anyone took the opportunity to read it.

So there is really no excuse for anyone to come here uninformed asking often very basic questions that a few hours on line would answer fully, without the need to ask anyone directly. 

The problem is that many have fixed ideas and no amount of advice will shift them. My mate said..... will often carry far more weight than any expert, any experienced dog person, any research study or any book will try to teach them.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I will fully support anyone who wants to breed in a responsible manner. Once they have health tested their dogs, gathered themselves a good reputation either in the working or show ring.

I give my number and offer my services to first time breeders when their bitches are ready to whelp as it helps to have an experienced person their, even if only on the phone to talk them through what to expert. I have wrote endless of threads for "newbie breeders", one of which is a sticky and the other is regularly referred to. I am also in the middle of setting up a website, which has *cost me* money to help people to learn how to breed responsibly. Everyone has to start somewhere, but 90% of the people that come on here won't take any notice of the endless threads wrote by myself or other experienced breeders regarding over breeding, risk, change of temperament, finances etc etc because they want a dog just like their Fifi or Butch .

I will not help people to breed their pet (insert breed or cross breed here) because everyone says he/ she is beautiful and my neighbour, friends family want one just like him/ her. He/ she would make a fantastic mum because they cuddle their teddies and mother the cat etc. The vet says they are fine to breed with and they have had health testing. The vet listened to their heart and said everything was fine. He also said 6 years old was in her prime.

When you explain what health testing actually is and the cost of it, they say something along the lines of: well, he/ she has never been ill before, or their parents were tested and they are ok... or my personal favourite; they are only a pet and I'm only allowing one litter before he/she is neutered, so there is no point in paying out for the health tests .

I will not be held responsible for bringing a litter of unwanted, unhealthy, poor examples of the breed (or crossbreed) into the world, to add to the statistics of those in rescue being destroyed.

However, if someone comes on here saying "I have a 15month old (KC registered) bitch who has been shown (or worked) and has achieved several championship show placements. I have 30 people on a waiting list for a pup from her. She has had all the breed relevant health tests and I am looking at breeding her in a years time. Her breeder lifted her endorsements, but unfortunately she/ he is unable to mentor me due to (illness, death, emigration, selling up etc) so I am looking to do this under guidance from someone else. Can you please tell me where I go to from here.

Then I will gladly point them in the next direction. I will advise them of the literature to read regarding the act of breeding etc. They will know studs in their breed that are siring nice pups (as they are actively involved with showing or working environment) but I will help them (as much as I can) to find something which will compliment their bitch (the finer details). I will advise them when to mate the dog and explain ovulation testing techniques and what is more reliable. I will advise them on what they need to do the day of the mating and if necessary (they live locally) I'll offer my services if the stud handler isn't that experienced.

I talk them through what to expect through the pregnancy, although they will have read BOTB from front to back several times, it can be reassuring to here it from actual experience rather than a book.

I give my number to those who are close to labour and instruct them to ring me at anytime during day OR night if for some reason they can't reach a vet and they think they have hit a problem, or they just need some company to be kept awake. I will also help with all aspects of raising the litter.

I would only help with the above things if the "breeder" proved they were genuinely trying to learn about breeding and they just needed reassurance or the finer details pointing out.

I will NOT help people who say things along the lines of:...
* I want to breed my 6yr old ( insert breed or cross breed) because I think every dog should have a litter before being spayed.
* I want a friend for him/ her that is just like him/ her
* I want new kitchen, car etc 
* I want to show the kids the miracle of birth.
* I think it will be a fun experience
* My neighbour has a dog and he wants to mate him with her.
* I think she'll be a good mum as she mothers the cat/ her toys etc.
* She was very expensive, so I want to earn that money back.....
and all things similar.

Its not very often you will find me drooling over poorly bred puppies. If they have been bred responsibly, I'll often choose a "pick of litter" just purely as an exercise to stretch my legs so to speak. I don't think you'll find me gooing and gahing over some poorly bred "accidental litters". 
I will however help if the "damage" has already been done. My first recommendation will always be the termination of pregnancy, but often it is left too late by the time they come on PF asking for help, or asking "what to look out for", in which case I'll offer my number again, purely on the basis that I want to do my best to keep the dogs alive, not to support the "breeder" or congratulate them on the new arrivals. Any congratulations I give to these sort of "breeders" is not for the fact that they have brought new puppies into the world. It is only because they didn't kill their bitch in the process.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Well.....there ARE too many puppies in the world and there ARE too many dogs already languishing in rescues, going unhomed because of too much breeding by too many people. 

Responsible breeders breeding for a proper reason I can go with but people wanting to breed because their friends all want puppies, or 'just because' (insert 'money?' here?) will always raise suspicion on a primarily pet loving forum, especially among those who know what they are talking about.


----------



## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You will find that not all members will reply on the breeding section because some,myself being one,don't agree that all dogs have to be health tested,ect ect.My attitude is if ANYONE comes on here and asks for advice that what they should get,not shot down in flames and judged.*


Well actually I don't post on this bit usually because I DO believe they should all be health tested but others do a much better job of explaining than I do. I don't think that's a can of worms that should be opened, I am sure most of us think where risks can be eliminated they should be, which is why I prefer to leave the advice to the likes of Tanya, Sleeping_Lion and Swarthy etc who are willing to share the wealth of knowledge that they all seem to have


----------



## Guest (Aug 17, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> I have been Reading alot of the Threads and posts in This section about Breeding....
> 
> And I notice that some 'Newbie's' feel left out and sometime patronised when asking for Help/Advise etc...
> 
> ...


I think if you get a virgin breeder on here, who has done ALL the health tests, has studied their breed, knows the current market, and has a geniune interest in bettering the breed rather then wanting to mate their pet just because John Smith over the road sez its a good looking dog then you will find that the welcome, help and advice they get will be entirely different!

DT


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> I will fully support anyone who wants to breed in a responsible manner. .......
> 
> Its not very often you will find me drooling over poorly bred puppies....
> 
> Any congratulations I give to these sort of "breeders" is not for the fact that they have brought new puppies into the world. It is only because they didn't kill their bitch in the process.


Good post Tanya.


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Old complaint is old.

This is something that comes up every now and again, nothing changes and quite rightly so.


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

I am relatively new to here although certainly not new to forums or to dogs but I have found this one to be nothing but welcoming which considering I can be very opinionated is somewhat of a pleasant surprise. Unlike some of the breed specific forums there is alot of interest and information to be gained from a site like this. Prehaps people just need to have a bit of a thicker skin??

Everyone who wants to breed does have to start somewhere but there is a right way of doing it, health testing doesn't mean the pups will be perfect so much can go wrong and I'm afraid to say genetics do play far more of a part in the health of a dog than any test but that doesn't mean to say that you should or anyone should breed from untested dogs. You do your best where you can.

If someone new comes on and the deed is already done then its just a case of getting on with it and supplying as much information and support as possible to make sure that the breeder and their dogs all get the best possible start. If the deed hasn't been done then putting people off isn't a bad idea if they are really set on it they will do it anyway but they may just take into consideration the possibility that they might be stuck with pups and a hefty old vets bill or at worse lose their dog or bitch.

I don't believe in judging a book by its cover but neither do I believe that all dogs need to be bred.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I don`t find this forum confusing. It is simply a group of people with different views about all sorts of things.
The same as any other forum, TBH. And wouldn`t it be dull ( and somewhat pointless) if we all agreed? 
If you don`t agree with someone`s view you have a perfect right to put your own. You cannot, however, deny someone else a right to have a view. 
Vive la Difference, I say.


----------



## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> You get all of the 'experts' knocking people ..Where on earth are they supposed to Start?


Probably not on a forum?

I just think breeding is a dodgey subject right now to be honest.


----------



## Hazelvalley (Aug 9, 2010)

I am new here only found this site last week on a random google search. This is my first time breeding and I just want to say that some of the members have been so helpful! I think people get so passionate about the importants of health test that it may come across as aggressive as you can read the same section of writign in so many ways as emotion comes across in tone which is why so many arguements can break out on forums. My bitch Tilly is health test Hip 2:2 and elbows 0:0 i had to near enough fight with the vet for him to do her elbows as he said it was not necessary but i wanted it done as I heard storys of bitches with only hip test having a litter of 5 and three of the pups have had arthritus an need joints replacing. Another story i heard recently from an breeder was she met people in the pub who had a stud dog so was asking about litters he has sired and they said he recently sired a litter of 10 but they all died!!!  SO she said that is unfortunate an asked about health test etc and they said to her Oh we dont do that! There a load of nonsense! As they are important and even though they cost a lot of money it just ensures the puppies are as healthy as you can.


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You will find that not all members will reply on the breeding section because some,myself being one,don't agree that all dogs have to be health tested,ect ect.My attitude is if ANYONE comes on here and asks for advice that what they should get,not shot down in flames and judged.*


Apologies if you posted the reasons before, but may I ask why you don't agree in health testing?


----------



## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

This is my first litter. I have been planning for years, before I even got my bitch. I have not been shot down and welcome and questions and I am open and honest with my answers. People will always have their opinions and I will always try to give advice rather than judge people. At the end of the day I will always try to help to insure the dogs health and well being is first and foremost. So please don't generalise. I have had a lot of support from this site and I have also sadly seen a lot of people bullied of this site which is why i have sometimes stayed away. If people want to start breeding then do it properly, its not a "hobby" it affects animals lives and should be treated with the respect that they deserve. It understandably upsets people when it is not taken seriously or even worse think they are going to make a it of money.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> I have been Reading alot of the Threads and posts in This section about Breeding....
> 
> And I notice that some 'Newbie's' feel left out and sometime patronised when asking for Help/Advise etc...
> 
> ...


the only times ive seen negative comments or have myself replied negatively to someone breeding is when members new or old are breeding irresponsibly, yes breeders have to start somewhere but new breeders who set out to be ethical ones ensure they do plenty of research 1st, they have a mentor who will help and advise along the way.... they dont just go ahead and breed willy nilly! and im certainly no 'expert' having only bred 1 litter in 10yrs but i have strong views and i cant condone bad breeding practices, imo breeding any animal is a such massive responsibility.

and i can assure you i Never congratulate breeders of puppies who i consider were bred irresponsibly.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Hazelvalley said:


> I am new here only found this site last week on a random google search. This is my first time breeding and I just want to say that some of the members have been so helpful! I think people get so passionate about the importants of health test that it may come across as aggressive as you can read the same section of writign in so many ways as emotion comes across in tone which is why so many arguements can break out on forums. My bitch Tilly is health test Hip 2:2 and elbows 0:0 i had to near enough fight with the vet for him to do her elbows as he said it was not necessary but i wanted it done as I heard storys of bitches with only hip test having a litter of 5 and three of the pups have had arthritus an need joints replacing. Another story i heard recently from an breeder was she met people in the pub who had a stud dog so was asking about litters he has sired and they said he recently sired a litter of 10 but they all died!!!  SO she said that is unfortunate an asked about health test etc and they said to her Oh we dont do that! There a load of nonsense! As they are important and even though they cost a lot of money it just ensures the puppies are as healthy as you can.


Well done you for getting elbows done, thats a priority for Labs I think, Ive had a couple of Labs with bad arthritis and its heartbreaking, but mine were when the elbow tests weren't in place, I certainly wouldnt buy a pup from non elbow tested parents now.


----------



## Hazelvalley (Aug 9, 2010)

After hearing the story about the lab I wanted to make sure! Someone told me that if the hips are under 10 then the elbows should be 0:0 but both dam and sire were both under 10 an still over 50% of puppies suffered problems. I love my little girl and I wouldnt have bred her if her elbows had any problems. It took me ages finding a good stud dog as well as as most of them listed didnt have health test results on so I had to search every Sires name on the health check website.


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

I also get confused about this Forum when "newbies" come on and ask "advice" or start their threads "help needed".

And when someone or some more experienced breeders add to their thread and share their experience or give their advice or opinion, all of a sudden they are called "holier than thou", flamers, sh!t stirrers, no-alls, in for money" and anything else which I have forgotten because I'm tired! all for answering the original question.

Then just because the OP does not want to hear that answer and just wants to hear everyone say " aw it will be ok" they get all defensive, usually abusing, saying they are never posting again, and blame their upset on a biased forum.

Yes I agree I am totally  about this forum


----------



## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

i was new here and as ppl call it a backyard breeder my rotty X was already pregnant when i came here but i was given a warm welcome and all the help i needed and a phone number my dog was health tested and the father was and a year or so of planning and finding the right vet i may have mated a cross bred BUT i did everything else correctly mum was very well looked after by our vet and had her on hand if something happened to mum or pup which it never thank goodness i had trouble with mum after the pups but nothign before hand but if i hadnt been one of the ppl to do everything right mum and pups could have died mum didnt produce milk had to have a injection and then got mastitis so if i wasnt checking her everyday she could have died from it and the pups got sick i spend alot of money on mum and pups they are all sold now to loving homes didnt have any trouble selling them at all but i tell you now if i did i couldnt cope with 8 big puppies the few ppl that have helped me through the birth and after have been lovely and wouldnt go anywhere else they do a fantastic job =)


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Thats just reminded me about a newbie the other day.... 

(OP)
Advice please; Stud not interested.

I have the stud and bitch here. She is in season but the stud isn't interested.

(EXPERIENCED MEMBER)

He probably realises she's not ready yet, and won't waste his energy. What day is she on?

(OP)

She's on day 3-4 !!!!!




My point here is, if you don't know the most basic thing like this you shouldn't be attempting to mate your dog. You learn this WELL IN ADVANCE of planning a litter. Breeding is not something you can learn as you go along. Ideally the breeding section on the forum should be split into sub topics, obviously can't be now as it would take far too long to go back and do it, but something like:

I am Planning a Litter- 

She has come into Season-

We have just mated-

0-30 days

31-55 days

56-63 days

Newborn Problems

Dam Problems

handrearing

Weaning

5+ weeks old


I think this would be a really helpful way of sectioning off the breeding section, if it were practical, and it would also be an easy way of sourcing the archives for newbie members


----------



## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm all for health testing, it's the only way to be sure that serious problems are not passed down and hopefully will help to eradicate them from the various breeds but for me it goes further than that, the dogs need to compliment each other too and need to be 'right'. For example you could have dog with excellent results on all health testing aspects but he or she might have totally the wrong head shape, incorrect pigment or incorrect bodily proportions... for me personally regardless of health results this dog shouldn't be bred willy nilly, it should only be bred with one that might help to correct the faults.

I will admit that before I thought about showing and breeding, I didn't think along this line. Just like so many others, I was ignorant to it all and at one point I really thought that you just put two dogs together and let them get on with it  Thankfully I wanted to learn and spoke to the right people and got put on track without too much trouble. When we had our first litter towards the end of last year the best help and advice I had was from this forum.

It's not fair to chastise people who don't know any different to what they're doing, they just need advice and support with a gentle nudge in the right direction. There is a problem in rescues but again, it's not fair to lay the blame with the breeder, they don't put them there... new uneducated owners who get bored after the cute puppy stage do


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Someone told me that if the hips are under 10 then the elbows should be 0:0 but both dam and sire were both under 10 an still over 50% of puppies suffered problems.


Sorry, off topic, but who on earth told you that 

Hips and elbows are entirely different things! and need to be tested separately.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I completely agree with Tanya's post.

Researching and learning start long before even buying a bitch with the possibility of mating it in the future - or at least should.

Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but a good deal of knowledge should be gained long before even contemplating a litter. While there is some excellent advice on this forum, it worries me that people rely on it for even the most basic of breeding queries.... I have a litter, when should I start weaning them? What day should I mate my dog? etc. Breeding is not something to be done by numbers.

Neither do I think a forum or even the is the place to do the majority of research. The best place is by being involved in the relevant canine activity, whether it be showing, working or any other discipline. That is the way to gain real knowledge, practical knowledge, not just about breeding, but about the dogs themselves.

I think the problem is that this is mainly a pet forum, so many breeders simply want to breed from their pets. I don't have a problem with people breeding their pets, but they can still do the research, get involved, get a mentor and do the legwork before contemplating breeding.

I think too, that many members don't understand how obvious posters lack of knowledge is, even when someone loves their dog and wants the best. Lack of knowledge leads to problems, and it is only by luck that many avoid them.
Surely we owe it to our pets and the future owners of our puppies to do the very best for them and the very best to ensure the puppies we breed are healthy, have good temperaments and are the very best examples, regardless of if they are to become the next SH CH, FTCH or someones beloved pet.


----------



## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I agree with what you've said rocco, but just incase I gave the wrong impression with my post I should clarify. 

I did learn about my chosen breed before breeding and am still learning, I don't believe for one second that anyone knows everything as there will always be something new that comes along. The stuff I have learnt so far hasn't come from this forum but from all kinds of sources including shows, speaking to other breeders personally, over the phone and sometimes via the internet.

The help I got from this forum was when our girl was due to whelp and again during and after. This wasn't necessarily done in posts but also over the phone when I was unable to get hold of others in my breed.

A lot can be gained through speaking to people... advice, information, being steered down the right road etc, but it's the experience that you really learn from.


----------



## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

I'm all for health testing, a fvery close friend of mines dog has been diagnosed with an enlarged heart and she's been told he's only got months to live. she is devastated. 
he's a rescue who has been used for breeding by an ex owner, him and 3 pups he sired came to my friend, who rehomed 2 of the pups and kept one. This dog has sired at least 7 litters if not more, from what we've been told the majority were accidental. now he's been diagonosed with this heart condition, he has months left and the vet has said it is definately hereditary. 
There is now so much heart ache for her to endure and the other owners of the other pups he has sired that could have been avoided with simple health tests and neutering.


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You will find that not all members will reply on the breeding section because some,myself being one,don't agree that all dogs have to be health tested,ect ect.My attitude is if ANYONE comes on here and asks for advice that what they should get,not shot down in flames and judged.*


Couldn't have put it better myself
Clare xx


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

deb53 said:


> i also get confused about this forum when "newbies" come on and ask "advice" or start their threads "help needed".
> 
> And when someone or some more experienced breeders add to their thread and share their experience or give their advice or opinion, all of a sudden they are called "holier than thou", flamers, sh!t stirrers, no-alls, in for money" and anything else which i have forgotten because i'm tired! All for answering the original question.
> 
> ...


well said debs!!

And then you get this.

Re: Confused about this Forum ?????????????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JANICE199 
You will find that not all members will reply on the breeding section because some,myself being one,don't agree that all dogs have to be health tested,ect ect.My attitude is if ANYONE comes on here and asks for advice that what they should get,not shot down in flames and judged.

Couldn't have put it better myself
Clare xx

CONFUSED............ YES I AM THATS WHY I CAN'T ALWAYS BE BOTHERED TO REPLY!!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Just to set the record straight i haven't said i am against health testing,if thats what people want then thats down to them.Personal choice is what i believe in.I find those that will ( i know) shoot me down for saying that are far worse in my oppion when they refuse to help those that come here NEEDING help.*


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

dexter said:


> well said debs!!
> 
> And then you get this.
> 
> ...


Look....right or wrong...if people get into a situation where they need help and advice and get shot down or jumped on then they're unlikely to stay here or go anywhere else....therefore for the sake of the animal involved advice needs to be given.....you put your personal views on hold for the welfare of a defensless animal surely? 
Clare x


----------



## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

I think a lot of it depends on how "hard" you are a person with forums. Some people can take the verbal battering and some can't. I can understand why people get so passionate with regards the breeding thing. Those who stupidly enter into breeding believing its an easy way to make a quick buck need to accept that those who are serious about their animals will be hacked off.

One thing i have noticed about this forum, people are very quick to attack. Unfortunately the written word isn't always easy to decipher. You don't always understand someone's sense of humour or people don't word themselves right because they post before thinking. If you are feeling a tad moody or emotional yourself, when reading these replies its easy to bite and get caught up in a slanging match.
Then again on here, people are passionate about their animals and only want the best for them (well 90% of members anyway) so its understandable that there would be a certain level of coldness perhaps when others show such dim witted actions.

I have felt like leaving the site on a few occasions but then i think why should i? You take from the site what you will. You may only find ONE post out of 30 that helps you... but its still there.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

And my first thoughts are!!!

Anyone who is breeding now needs to think of it long and hard!
That includes experienced breeders with health tested dogs!
Sorry guys it that includes YOU! I made the decision not to go ahead earlier this year! (Dispite having health tested). and I don't regret it for one moment! The thought of one of my pups falling into the wrong hands or insto rescue would worry me to death!


BUT then I think!
But if all the responsible breeders stop breeding then that just leaves the market wide open for puppy farmers and back yard breeders! BECAUSE there will also be a demand for puppies!


SO!
What the do YOU see as being the answer??


----------



## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

On a personal level i would much rather have experienced breeders doing it right... we had a Shih tzu when we were younger, turned out SHE was from an uncovered puppy farm (we found out a year later) and she had heart problems and joint problems (she lived to be 15 though!) 

I would much rather not have a pup at all than get one from a puppy farm. 

Then again much like with dodgy back street drugs, when there is demand there will always be supply. As sad as that is. :frown:


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I would *really* like to know anyone's reasons for not health testing.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> I would *really* like to know anyone's reasons for not health testing.


Likewise!¬!!
Could be erm!!! interesting!


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Clare7435 said:


> Look....right or wrong...if people get into a situation where they need help and advice and get shot down or jumped on then they're unlikely to stay here or go anywhere else....therefore for the sake of the animal involved advice needs to be given.....you put your personal views on hold for the welfare of a defensless animal surely?
> Clare x


of course you do , who said they don't?. There are many experienced breeders/dog owners on here who are more than willing to share their knowledge and advice but do some people listen NO they don't.

There are so many threads on here about responsible breeding and yet some basic questions appear over and over again.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Likewise!¬!!
> Could be erm!!! interesting!


me too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. anyone??


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I would really like to know anyone's reasons for not health testing.


I understood the answer to be 'personal choice'. Unfortunately, personal choice is not good enough when it comes to breeding. Look at what 'personal choice' in breeding did to the GSD! and many other breeds that are suffering! At long last, the KC is taking some action on this - and long overdue IMO, I wish the same were to be done for breeding without health tests!


----------



## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Just to set the record straight i haven't said i am against health testing,if thats what people want then thats down to them.Personal choice is what i believe in.I find those that will ( i know) shoot me down for saying that are far worse in my oppion when they refuse to help those that come here NEEDING help.*


I haven't ever seen help being refused to someone who comes on here whose bitch or puppies need help.

However, wanting help to do something that many of us regard as irresponsible or immoral is another matter completely. Over the years I have offered help to numerous first time breeders of RRs. Often it has been refused, but I can do no more than offer ...


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I would *really* like to know anyone's reasons for not health testing.


*Ok let me ask this question,we hear about how people continue to health test dogs so we end up with a better line? is this correct?Reading threads on here that has been my understanding but correct me if i'm wrong.Now if after years of testing said lines surely we should by now have healthy dogs,all with good eyesight,good hip scores ect.So why do we still need to be doing these tests?And is there any proof that dogs that are tested wont produce pups with faults?Now i know the obvious answer is going to be,nothing is full proof but thats not an answer imo...sorry if i haven't explained this as i wont it to come across.*


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

> Look....right or wrong...if people get into a situation where they need help and advice and get shot down or jumped on then they're unlikely to stay here or go anywhere else....therefore for the sake of the animal involved advice needs to be given.....you put your personal views on hold for the welfare of a defensless animal surely?
> Clare x


Nobody has ever refused help to someone who has a bitch or puppies in distress, or those who are too late for the mismate. This forum is about pets. Pets are the priority. I personally won't sit back and watch a bitch die from a stuck puppy when I have the knowledge to get the puppy out.

However if someone comes on saying "my bitch won't stand" or "stud not interested" then I won't help. I'll just give my opinion eg; she's not ready (in which case they should know that much before breeding and so aren't responsible breeding).

I refuse to give advice to someone I have doubts about their motives for breeding, which will help them breed their dogs. I would be partly responsible for bringing another litter into the world from BYB


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I would *really* like to know anyone's reasons for not health testing.


Search back a few pages, there is about a 30 page argument on it. In the end 2 people said they wouldn't vs 30-40 that said they would if they were aware of testing.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

For what this is worth i will say it. . . . whenwe got our first 2 pups, brothers 18 months apart we still have the 2nd one they wasnt from health tested parents, i knew nothing about health testing.

I have seen some threads on the breeding section get very unpleasant and i have felt for the OP i have also thought some comments unjustified, but you have to think that if the OP chose to get defensive and leave the forum then that cant be helped, tons and tons of people view it like me and dont comment in my case rarely have i anything to say on the subject, but (and it will never happen) i decided to breed, no way would i dare after reading advice/comments on here do it without health testing, so ok someone gets offended and the experts here have offended them, but just think of all the other members that have been enlightened/educated into the importance of health testing.

Suppose i could jump on the band wagon of well my dogs have been fine, (ok my eldest died young from an inherited disease that wouldnt have been tested anyway) but ad he been a dobe or other breeds that DCM is a known ilness in them it would have saved monty having to go through what he did and have his lovely life cut short. Si i dont/wont say oh mine have been fine dont bother because having heard from the people that know on here then its changed the way i see things.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Thank you for all of your responses....

I think it was this Thread ( Link below ) in particular that first made me think about this.

This Guy came on saying he been bullied off another Forum...His Very 1st reply was along the lines off...''I'M NOT SUPRISED you were bullied off''


I just think it gives a bad impression.And I think that way people just don't bother to come back..This Guy came on here and seems that he was having to defend himself all the way through the Thread...Even someone Congratulating him on being able to Copy/paste :eek6: I just think people can be very patronizing...it's a shame.

The thread that I'm using as an example

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/116614-hi-newbie-looking-help-advice-breeding.html


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Thank you for all of your responses....
> 
> I think it was this Thread ( Link below ) in particular that first made me think about this.
> 
> ...


Ye i read that one and it was a typical lashing of topic thread at times.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> Thank you for all of your responses....
> 
> I think it was this Thread ( Link below ) in particular that first made me think about this.
> 
> ...


I genuinely think that a lot of these threads are by trolls or wind up merchants call em what you like! Seriously!! some of em are unbelievable!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

But if you read the rest of the post you'll understand why. I may be jumping to conclusions here but
a) 3 puppies under 5 months old
b) not very knowledgable about the breed
c) considering breeding them ALL- one isn't even old enough to leave the breeder yet
d) one is a rescue they are considering breeding
e) hoping to breed the oldest one under 18 months

This is just from the opening post.
To continue:
All three pups have MANY champions one with over 18 in her lines.- This means absolutely nothing regarding how "well bred" something is.
He chose a brood bitch at 3 days old?



> Mia and Narla will keep most of their wrinkles and that cute puppy apperance.


This is a breed fault. They should have 3 slight wrinkles at the withers and 2 wrinkles at the base of their tail, along with the eyebrow wrinkles and the furrowed forehead



> she is a very good example of the bear coat shar pei and has a wicked temperment


She is 17 weeks???

I kept quiet on that post- but the above are reasons why I can see that people went into defence mode. Who plans on breeding from 17 week puppy and a puppy still at the breeders?


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Arghhhh So Every Newbie is now a Troll/Wind up merchant.  I rest my case 

Bet The person with The Sher pei's will feel much better when they see that.

I can see that the members who are wanted on here seem to want the site to themselves..

Should be a warning ''New members....People needing Help'' Need not sign up.:lol:

Funnily I've just read another Thread where the writer will not come back..


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

There are tests available for so many inherited health problems that there is no excuse for not making use of them. Those who make a "personal choice" not to are only doing so to minimise expense and maximise profit.... IMO  The tests carry very little risk - a blood test/cheek swab/sedation for x ray, so there is no reason not to do it and it can go a long way to producing a healthier litter.

Whilst many lines have improved in health drastically, it is only relatively recently that health testing has been common place and it takes many many generations to eradicate problems so it is very important that breeders continue to health test to monitor the health of their own lines, and also to identify any "problem" lines that need improvement or to be avoided.

People will never agree on this forum, there will always been clueless "breeders" unwilling to take advice, things will never change...


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Arghhhh So Every Newbie is now a Troll/Wind up merchant.  I rest my case
> 
> Bet The person with The Sher pei's will feel much better when they see that.
> 
> ...


Its not about frightening members off. Its about teaching them responsible breeding. Like I said on previous posts I will not offer advice on how to mate their dogs if I have any doubt in their motives for breeding. *HOWEVER* I will offer advice to an already pregnant bitch. My first suggestion will always be termination, but most of the time it is too late by the time they come on here, so I give them my number to ring *24/7* if they need any help or advice. If thats not making them feel welcome I don't know what is???


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Ok let me ask this question,we hear about how people continue to health test dogs so we end up with a better line?


No, you health tests to breed healthier dogs, not better the line.



> Reading threads on here that has been my understanding but correct me if i'm wrong.Now if after years of testing said lines surely we should by now have healthy dogs,all with good eyesight,good hip scores ect


There are still unhealthy dogs because far too many are still unhealth tested. There is ample evidence that health testing does improve incidence of health problems, but with only a percentage of breeders doing these health tests, then the overall improvement will only appear relative to the number doing them.

.


> So why do we still need to be doing these tests?And is there any proof that dogs that are tested wont produce pups with faults?


Yes, with some tests absolutely 100% guaranteed. With others it minimises risk.



> Now i know the obvious answer is going to be,nothing is full proof but thats not an answer imo...


The only person that could answer that is God  We are talking mother nature here..... and we only have a small grasp of dna and life... you will never get an answer (unless you have a hotline to God  )

The bottom line is that health testing DOES help eliminate health problems. Why would anyone who is bringing puppies into the world not want to do everything they possibly can to breed health puppies, even if they cannot guarantee it 100%.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> Arghhhh So Every Newbie is now a Troll/Wind up merchant.  I rest my case
> 
> Bet The person with The Sher pei's will feel much better when they see that.
> 
> ...


ERM!!! Excuse me!!! BUT were did I say EVERY????  
Get your facts right if you are using me to 'rest your case'


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I can see that the members who are wanted on here seem to want the site to themselves..


That's rubbish. People care and want the best for their dogs and other's too.



> Should be a warning ''New members....People needing Help'' Need not sign up.


That's helpful 



> Funnily I've just read another Thread where the writer will not come back..


Those who don't come back make their choice, often because they don't want to hear that breeding is not a good idea.


----------



## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I can totally understand why experienced Breeders refuse to help people, some people come on here asking for advice. Whether the advice they get is "Do not breed" or even after a long list of what complications may arise when breeding, the people are set on breeding that they don't even take any of the advice given on hand and then start getting snotty because it's not what they want to hear then accuse everyone of bullying them away from the forum.

So many breeds are being ruined due to poor examples of the breed, no health tests etc, as are there being too many dogs in rescue and some people wonder why they are told not to go ahead with breeding. Me, as a dog lover, can understand why breeders "tell the truth" practically to people wanting to breed and my hat goes off to them! 

I do think though, that not many people really know about health tests. I luckily did when buying our puppy, but not many puppy buyers, especially new puppy buyers do. I think that hopefully when we do get some newbies asking for advice particularly on purchasing a puppy, that our members are kind enough to help educate them about the specific health tests their chosen breed should have.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> Arghhhh So Every Newbie is now a Troll/Wind up merchant.  I rest my case
> 
> Bet The person with The Sher pei's will feel much better when they see that.
> 
> ...


:lol: :lol: what a load of crap. Everybody is welcomed here and the way you worded that is the same way my child would have in a tanty


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

seems to me like a minority of members care more about hurting the feelings of irresponsible breeders than they do about the welfare of the dogs concerned:confused1:


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> Its not about frightening members off. Its about teaching them responsible breeding. Like I said on previous posts I will not offer advice on how to mate their dogs if I have any doubt in their motives for breeding. *HOWEVER* I will offer advice to an already pregnant bitch. My first suggestion will always be termination, but most of the time it is too late by the time they come on here, so I give them my number to ring *24/7* if they need any help or advice. If thats not making them feel welcome I don't know what is???


*Tanya believe it or not i have the utmost respect for the help you give people,and i wish there were more like you on here when it comes to helping people.BUT people are frightend off this forum because of the way some people jump on them.I've read time and time again threads where someone askd for advice on breeding only to be bombarded with an array of questions.They go off never to be seen again and probably just go ahead and breed anyway.*


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> :lol: :lol: what a load of crap. Everybody is welcomed here and the way you worded that is the same way my child would have in a tanty.


*Sorry WL but not everyone is made welcome on here which i find sad.*


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry WL but not everyone is made welcome on here which i find sad.*


not from where I sit I find that they are welcomed but they either dont join in or come on defensive. But then I dont hover in this section much so maybe.


----------



## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Tanya believe it or not i have the utmost respect for the help you give people,and i wish there were more like you on here when it comes to helping people.BUT people are frightend off this forum because of the way some people jump on them.I've read time and time again threads where someone askd for advice on breeding only to be bombarded with an array of questions.They go off never to be seen again and probably just go ahead and breed anyway.*


I also agree with you.

Some people who do ask for advice about something, they are jumped on, usually with the first words being "Have you done all the health tests?" etc, without even given them advice.
Just because some people haven't stated all the facts yet, does not mean they haven't done the health tests. I know that may only be a minority of people, but still.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

There's still more people leaving than joining....It's quite a good forum in other ways.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

EmzieAngel said:


> I also agree with you.
> 
> Some people who do ask for advice about something, they are jumped on, usually with the first words being "Have you done all the health tests?" etc, without even given them advice.
> Just because some people haven't stated all the facts yet, does not mean they haven't done the health tests. I know that may only be a minority of people, but still.


Theres no point giving them advice on health testing and responsible breeding if they have already done it though  Its the first thing that should be done when thinking of breeding so it stands to reason its the first thing people ask before giving advice, you need to know what has and hasnt been done before trying to give advice!! When i joined here and posted about a planned litter i was bombarded with the same questions and as my dogs were fully health tested i happily provided answers to the questions asked and did not get offended by them at all. The only reason anyone would get defensive is if they know they should test but have not done so because they are too tight to spend the money out on it  I've seen people who are very grateful to be informed of health tests and asked advice on where/when to get it done - they are made to feel more than welcome and helped as much as possible as they clearly care about their dogs and the pups they produce.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Breeding will always be a controversial subject, you'll never change that, and peoples attitudes to breeding will never change. You'll always get the "I want her to have one litter before she is spayed" people and like wise you'll get "only the best of the best should be bred from" this forum is quite fair really. Go and join Champdogs and talk about cross breeding/ irresponsible breeding... we are like pussy cats compared to the responses you'll get from them. I know.... I am one of them


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Theres no point giving them advice on health testing and responsible breeding if they have already done it though  Its the first thing that should be done when thinking of breeding so it stands to reason its the first thing people ask before giving advice, you need to know what has and hasnt been done before trying to give advice!! When i joined here and posted about a planned litter i was bombarded with the same questions and as my dogs were fully health tested i happily provided answers to the questions asked and did not get offended by them at all. The only reason anyone would get defensive is if they know they should test but have not done so because they are too tight to spend the money out on it  I've seen people who are very grateful to be informed of health tests and asked advice on where/when to get it done - they are made to feel more than welcome and helped as much as possible as they clearly care about their dogs and the pups they produce.


*You see this statement is utter rubbish.Do you know how many newbies think that a vet check=health tested? I know when i 1st joined i thought that.*


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> There's still more people leaving than joining....It's quite a good forum in other ways.


I find the general section to be full of great peeps who make me laugh and are caring about others here. I spose something like breeding will always cause strong arguments, I havent found it to be an attack on newbies though.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You see this statement is utter rubbish.Do you know how many newbies think that a vet check=health tested? I know when i 1st joined i thought that.*


I agree, at first a lot of it is ignorance, but then quite often when health testing is explained by "experienced people" they decide against it, because she is just a pet and it is only one litter type scenario.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> There's still more people leaving than joining....It's quite a good forum in other ways.


well i cant/wont change my opinions on bad breeders just to placate them, i have Very strong ethics on breeding as do many others on here, and im sure if they cant air their views quite a few of those members would be leaving.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You see this statement is utter rubbish.Do you know how many newbies think that a vet check=health tested? I know when i 1st joined i thought that.*


Yes, thats fine, we all have to learn somewhere. Yet, when they are told about health testing on here they still refuse to do it because "the vet says my bitch is perfect for breeding" 

That excuse doesnt stand with me. If you can get on a forum to post about breeding your bitch, you can do a simple google search to find out what needs to be done before you mate her  There is SO much information out there now and its so easily accessible.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> well i cant/wont change my opinions on bad breeders just to placate them, i have Very strong ethics on breeding as do many others on here, and im sure if they cant air their views quite a few of those members would be leaving.


*There is no reason why you should change your opinion on what you see as bad breeding.People can put their views across without falling out.*


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *There is no reason why you should change your opinion on what you see as bad breeding.People can put their views across without falling out.*


well i agree with that Janice although sometimes some members can bring out the worst in me and others like the recent thread by the member intent on breeding the staffy, but tbh i personally dont regret anything i said there.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> well i agree with that Janice although sometimes some members can bring out the worst in me and others like the recent thread by the member intent on breeding the staffy, but tbh i personally dont regret anything i said there.


Well I am thinking of changing my tactics Noush! 
It's either that or book myself in for a blue rinse!
To match my blue face!


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I am thinking of changing my tactics Noush!
> It's either that or book myself in for a blue rinse!
> To match my blue face!


 yeah go the blue like Alaun and be a groovy granny :thumbup: :lol:


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> yeah go the blue like Alaun and be a groovy granny :thumbup: :lol:


hey nothing wrong with being a groovey Granny :lol::lol::lol::lol: not sure

about the blue though  

Sorry going off the topic but was catching up


----------



## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> yeah go the blue like Alaun and be a groovy granny :thumbup: :lol:





deb53 said:


> hey nothing wrong with being a groovey Granny :lol::lol::lol::lol: not sure
> 
> about the blue though
> 
> Sorry going off the topic but was catching up


Hey - less of the granny! :scared: 

We were all newbies on here once and yet we have survived! Just like with breeding we all start as newbies and gain experience along the way - if a few home truths was enough to put us off then the forum would be completely empty - there would be no 'experienced members' here to share their valued expertise. I have found this forum very helpful and honest.

You don't have to read every section, pick and choose what applies to you! If I didn't like what I was reading I would either choose not to read it, stay away from that particular section or leave - not constantly complain that I didn't like it. I choose to come on here, so I must like it.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> There's still more people leaving than joining....It's quite a good forum in other ways.


This is a great forum and everybody who asks for advise gets an honest opinon from people who know the answers , its all kicks off when some op's don't like the answers they get.

you've only been here for a few months if you stick around for longer you'll see why its a great forum.


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Ive been coming on the forum for a while and i can say i think it as calmed down loads ive also seen lots of my friends leave or get banned for sticking by there views and being honest.

Tanya as took over this section hope she dont mind me saying that and ive seen her help so many time and time again and she as even done a site try and help so come on how many would do this???

I wont change my views on breeding and i wont help prats!!
If i was the only one on and i saw a member in trouble yes i would give advice but if i thought i had problems the first place i would be is the vets not a forum


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

cav said:


> Ive been coming on the forum for a while and i can say i think it as calmed down loads ive also seen lots of my friends leave or get banned for sticking by there views and being honest.
> 
> Tanya as took over this section hope she dont mind me saying that and ive seen her help so many time and time again and she as even done a site try and help so come on how many would do this???
> 
> ...


Hi Cav"!
Suprise Suprise!!
Guess what!!
I'm still here!!:thumbup:


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cav said:


> Ive been coming on the forum for a while and i can say i think it as calmed down loads ive also seen lots of my friends leave or get banned for sticking by there views and being honest.
> 
> Tanya as took over this section hope she dont mind me saying that and ive seen her help so many time and time again and she as even done a site try and help so come on how many would do this???
> 
> ...


*Surely then if Tanya can bite the bit when needed others can.Its not a case of whether or not someone agrees with what another person believes is right or wrong,imo its a case of helping to bring a new life into this world the safest way.*


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hi Cav"!
> Suprise Suprise!!
> Guess what!!
> I'm still here!!:thumbup:


hehe hows you?:thumbup:
i come on most days just dont most as much as i use to
glad some oldies have come back


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Surely then if Tanya can bite the bit when needed others can.Its not a case of whether or not someone agrees with what another person believes is right or wrong,imo its a case of helping to bring a new life into this world the safest way.*


lol Janice you know me ive had a few arguments on here about breeding thats why i tend keep out of it but i do think members get help and advice and i think this bit is a lot calmer than it use be

peeps will always have different views on things


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cav said:


> lol Janice you know me ive had a few arguments on here about breeding thats why i tend keep out of it but i do think members get help and advice and i think this bit is a lot calmer than it use be
> 
> peeps will always have different views on things


*lol you and me both,and we are still here to tell the tale.:thumbup:*


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *lol you and me both,and we are still here to tell the tale.:thumbup:*


yes we are but at the end of day we all love our dogs or we would not be here

i love a good debate you know that but some times it can go to far


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cav said:


> yes we are but at the end of day we all love our dogs or we would not be here
> 
> i love a good debate you know that but some times it can go to far


*To be totaly honest with you cav. i've been in some very heated debates on here that i thought might be delted or closed.The one thing i find is best is let the debates continue as long as things don't get personal,and most of the time the thread wears itself out.*


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok let me ask this question,we hear about how people continue to health test dogs so we end up with a better line? is this correct?Reading threads on here that has been my understanding but correct me if i'm wrong.Now if after years of testing said lines surely we should by now have healthy dogs,all with good eyesight,good hip scores ect.So why do we still need to be doing these tests?And is there any proof that dogs that are tested wont produce pups with faults?Now i know the obvious answer is going to be,nothing is full proof but thats not an answer imo...sorry if i haven't explained this as i wont it to come across.*


To give you an example in my breed with Von Willebrands. We could in one generation get rid of VW but at the same time we would lose a big percentage of the gene pool which would breed in more problems. By testing and pairing compatable dogs we can avoid producing affected dogs

IDEAL BREEDING
Clear to Clear Produces
100% Clear Puppies

SAFE BREEDING	
Clear to Carrier Produces
50% Clear/ 50% Carrier puppies

Clear to Affected Produces
100% Carrier puppies

NOT RECOMMENDED FOR BREEDING AS SOME OR ALL PUPPIES WILL BE AFFECTED
Carrier to Carrier
25% Affected puppies
Carrier to Affected 50% Affected puppies
Affected to Affected 100% Affected puppies


----------



## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

just an observation on this - some of the posts/members that get slated are sometimes not because the member has done anything wrong, but simply because they didn't write their post well enough to have everybody understand it. sometimes people trying to do the best by their animals don't write as well as they would speak, and so don't explain the circumstances well enough, maybe leaving out important information which immediately has some of the experienced breeders jumping on them for doing the wrong thing when they simply phrased something wrong. this seems to be a problem with a lot of written communication, people write differently and what says 1 thing to one person may read completely differently to another.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

hawksport said:


> To give you an example in my breed with Von Willebrands. We could in one generation get rid of VW but at the same time we would lose a big percentage of the gene pool which would breed in more problems. By testing and pairing compatable dogs we can avoid producing affected dogs
> 
> IDEAL BREEDING
> Clear to Clear Produces
> ...


*I have never heard of VW until now,am i right in thinking its a blood disorder?(just had a quick nose on the net)..My next question would be how old is your breed of dog?*


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

flosskins said:


> just an observation on this - some of the posts/members that get slated are sometimes not because the member has done anything wrong, but simply because they didn't write their post well enough to have everybody understand it. sometimes people trying to do the best by their animals don't write as well as they would speak, and so don't explain the circumstances well enough, maybe leaving out important information which immediately has some of the experienced breeders jumping on them for doing the wrong thing when they simply phrased something wrong. this seems to be a problem with a lot of written communication, people write differently and what says 1 thing to one person may read completely differently to another.


*Totaly agree with you on this.I know i come across as a bit thick sometimes because i find it hard to write what i want to say.But put me in a room with someone and i'm totaly different.*


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> just an observation on this - some of the posts/members that get slated are sometimes not because the member has done anything wrong, but simply because they didn't write their post well enough to have everybody understand it. sometimes people trying to do the best by their animals don't write as well as they would speak, and so don't explain the circumstances well enough, maybe leaving out important information which immediately has some of the experienced breeders jumping on them for doing the wrong thing when they simply phrased something wrong. this seems to be a problem with a lot of written communication, people write differently and what says 1 thing to one person may read completely differently to another.


I think this can be true, the written word is always different from conversation, even though on a forum it may appear like a conversation. 
But, I think many people don't realise that omissions and certain ways of saying things actually tells an experienced breeder a LOT about the poster and thier intentions. What may to some seem quite innocent speaks volumes to someone with experience.

Equally, and understandably being a 'pet' forum, there seems to be an idea that as long as you 'love' your dog then everything is ok and you're doing the best for it. Sadly that is not the case when it comes to breeding. Love alone doesn't make a good breeder. In fact, a good breeder doesn't necessarily even need to love thier dogs.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

hawksport said:


> To give you an example in my breed with Von Willebrands. We could in one generation get rid of VW but at the same time we would lose a big percentage of the gene pool which would breed in more problems. By testing and pairing compatable dogs we can avoid producing affected dogs
> 
> IDEAL BREEDING
> Clear to Clear Produces
> ...


This is the same as fanconi in basenjis.


----------



## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Totaly agree with you on this.I know i come across as a bit thick sometimes because i find it hard to write what i want to say.But put me in a room with someone and i'm totaly different.*


i find it difficult, and write a post or something while i think of it and then once i've posted it and read it back it sounds stupid, or i sometimes sounds really abrupt but don't mean to, and i think lots of people must have this problem and so get slated for being less literate that others, not for doing the wrong thing!


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Totaly agree with you on this.I know i come across as a bit thick sometimes because i find it hard to write what i want to say.But put me in a room with someone and i'm totaly different.


I would say there's probably very few people who have the gift of being able to write and express what they are thinking and feeling. I know I certainly don't, but for that very reason, I don't take what someone says personally.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok let me ask this question,we hear about how people continue to health test dogs so we end up with a better line? is this correct?Reading threads on here that has been my understanding but correct me if i'm wrong.Now if after years of testing said lines surely we should by now have healthy dogs,all with good eyesight,good hip scores ect.So why do we still need to be doing these tests?And is there any proof that dogs that are tested wont produce pups with faults?Now i know the obvious answer is going to be,nothing is full proof but thats not an answer imo...sorry if i haven't explained this as i wont it to come across.*





JANICE199 said:


> *I have never heard of VW until now,am i right in thinking its a blood disorder?(just had a quick nose on the net)..My next question would be how old is your breed of dog?*


Yes it's a clotting disorder. The first standard was written in 1890.
Your next question is going to take a bit of research


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Yes it's a clotting disorder. The first standard was written in 1890.
> Your next question is going to take a bit of research


*The point i'm getting at is this,if us humans had'nt brought certain breeds about in the 1st place,would we see these problems?*


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I think this can be true, the written word is always different from conversation, even though on a forum it may appear like a conversation.
> But, I think many people don't realise that omissions and certain ways of saying things actually tells an experienced breeder a LOT about the poster and thier intentions. What may to some seem quite innocent speaks volumes to someone with experience.
> 
> Equally, and understandably being a 'pet' forum, there seems to be an idea that as long as you 'love' your dog then everything is ok and you're doing the best for it. Sadly that is not the case when it comes to breeding. Love alone doesn't make a good breeder. In fact, a good breeder doesn't necessarily even need to love thier dogs.


I think a good breeder does need to love and care for there dogs and also the pups i like to stay i contact with all mine and i am always on hand to help if any problems arise.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *The point i'm getting at is this,if us humans had'nt brought certain breeds about in the 1st place,would we see these problems?*


Probably not but they wouldn't be able to do the jobs they were bred for either


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *The point i'm getting at is this,if us humans had'nt brought certain breeds about in the 1st place,would we see these problems?*


Basenjis have been around for thousands of years and existed away from human intervention, but they have health problems due to small gene pools. It isnt all down to humans interfering with the breeds.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I think a good breeder does need to love and care for there dogs and also the pups i like to stay i contact with all mine and i am always on hand to help if any problems arise.


I agree most do, and I probably put it badly, what I meant was that the 'sentimentality' of love is not what it required... ie I love my bitch like she was my child etc. what is essential are good breeding practices and care and that is possible without the sentimental kind of love that is often expressed by posters as the reason why they are doing the right thing.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The point i'm getting at is this,if us humans had'nt brought certain breeds about in the 1st place,would we see these problems?


Probably not, and certainly not to the extent we do now, but we are where we are! We have to deal with what we have now. And that takes forward thinking and knowledge. A good breeder will not simply be thinking of breeding a litter of puppies, they will be thinking about what future they are putting into the gene pools generations down the line. To a certain extent we are dealing with what happened in the past. I'm sure breeders didn't intend these problems to occur back then, just as some of today's breeders don't intend to breed puppies with problems (even the byb kind), but sadly too many lessons don't appear to have been learnt - and there are still more to be learned. The future breeders can only breed from what today's breeders leave them. THAT is the responsibility of today's breeders. If all they leave them are unhealthy dogs and poor examples with poor temperaments, what will it be like in 20 / 30 or 40 years time.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Probably not, and certainly not to the extent we do now, but we are where we are! We have to deal with what we have now. And that takes forward thinking and knowledge. A good breeder will not simply be thinking of breeding a litter of puppies, they will be thinking about what future they are putting into the gene pools generations down the line. To a certain extent we are dealing with what happened in the past. I'm sure breeders didn't intend these problems to occur back then, just as some of today's breeders don't intend to breed puppies with problems (even the byb kind), but sadly too many lessons don't appear to have been learnt - and there are still more to be learned. The future breeders can only breed from what today's breeders leave them. THAT is the responsibility of today's breeders. If all they leave them are unhealthy dogs and poor examples with poor temperaments, what will it be like in 20 / 30 or 40 years time.


*If this is the case then why not try and go back to the original breeds?*


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *If this is the case then why not try and go back to theboriginal breeds?*


many breeds were developed in the 19 century so it depends what you mean by go back to the original breeds, do you mean the dogs they were developed from? if so than they wouldnt be the breeds we know today,

my breed is an ancient one anyway


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> If this is the case then why not try and go back to theboriginal breeds?


Sorry, read this as 'why not try to go back to the *aboriginal* breeds?


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Sorry, read this as 'why not try to go back to the *aboriginal* breeds?


same here Lol but wasnt gonna be a smartarse in the middle of eating my popcorn  :lol: :lol:


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Sorry, read this as 'why not try to go back to the *aboriginal* breeds?


hehe well the dingo is one of the oldest


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> hehe well the dingo is one of the oldest


dingo aint an aborigine :lol: :lol: :confused1:


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> dingo aint an aborigine :lol: :lol: :confused1:


oh ya know me i read everything wrong:lol:.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> oh ya know me i read everything wrong:lol:.


haha :lol:


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I agree most do, and I probably put it badly, what I meant was that the 'sentimentality' of love is not what it required... ie I love my bitch like she was my child etc. what is essential are good breeding practices and care and that is possible without the sentimental kind of love that is often expressed by posters as the reason why they are doing the right thing.


ow i agree a breeder needs to be the whole package i must have read you post wrong......sorry


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> There's still more people leaving than joining....It's quite a good forum in other ways.


yes and i wonder why

i will always stick by my morals


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> If this is the case then why not try and go back to theboriginal breeds?


Seriously though, do you mean have just one kind of 'dog' without the different breeds - sort of like a mongrel? (no disrespect meant to mongrels I know some gorgeous ones). If so, I can't see how that would improve things as many of the very old breed did occur naturally due to environment etc. so there would never have been only one type of dog as such.

If you mean to when the breed was developed, then that is what good breeding should be about, albeit that it has been influenced by taste and personal preference and choice .

Interesting, because I think it was Leashedforlife who recently posted a link to an online book published in 1915 showing the different breeds. I took a look at my breed (labs) as it still would have been a fairly new breed at that time and dog in the photo is virtually identical to many working labradors around today.
Dogs of all nations sorry can't post the photo only the link.

If you go back to the breed the labrador was developed from, the St John's Dog (an evidently naturally occuring breeding in Newfoundland), again, it resembles many working labradors around today, so not that much has changed. Perhaps in the show and pet types, but not in the working type.

Google Image Result for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/e/ef/20090614205750!St_Johns_dog.jpg
sorry again can only do link. And I know one litter on the ground at the moment which has a pup with white paws that he St John's Dog in the photo shows.

So going back to the original breed will not necessarily affect health. Besides, you cannot create diseases (you can create structural problems that cause health issues which has been the case in some breeds - ie breathing problems in dogs with short noses etc), but you cannot put a disease in that is not already in the dna. Therefore, it stands to reason that if you breed from dogs without that problem in the dna they will not pass it on. The difficulty is that while avoiding some health problems you may be inadvertently breeding in others. This is why extensive knowledge and research is required.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> hehe well the dingo is one of the oldest


Reckon you meant Dingbat didn't ya Noush!


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *If this is the case then why not try and go back to the original breeds?*


And how do you propose to do that?

We can only breed with the genes that we have today. Some of the genes in dogs long ago are gone for good, they have been bred out of them.
We may be able to recreate longer snouts, longer legs and better temperaments, but we cannot always recreate the selection processes that went on long ago, to create healthier dogs.

When anyone in the past relied on their dogs being able to work so that they can feed their children or just live, then breeding from Bessie the runt, or Bertie who doesn't want to work or Buster who cannot run for more than 20 minutes before collapsing in a heap breathless or Bertha who develops a limp at the end of a working day, will not happen as it was too much of a risk to produce unhealthy or unusable pups.

Generations of selecting dogs mainly for cosmetic things, alters that balance, the modern day Bessie was sold as a pet, and unfortunately was bought by someone who wanted a litter and Bessie's lack of immunity is passed on to her pups, the modern day Bertie doesn't need to work so he is as happy as Larry, the modern day Buster, never has to run hard for 20 minutes so his heart problem isn't apparent until he has sired numerous pups with heart disease, the modern day Bertha's HD may also be ignored or hidden because she never has to put her legs under pressure however she may well pass on her bad hips to her pups, who may be a lot more affected than she is.

It is not important nowadays that most dogs are capable of working so our only modern day filter for that type of dog is to health test to try and make sure that these defects do not get passed on down the generations.

Long ago, it was a case of "bad luck" when things went wrong and sickly/defective pups were born, nowadays with technology then the bad luck factor can be minimised for many diseases and defects. 
A breeder is negligent nowadays to put things down to "bad luck", when a health test would have told them exactly what the problem was before pups were born


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I think maybe my last post came across wrong, I didn't mean to say nobody would help those in need, I ment that if people get shot down they might dissapear and then have no help, that's all that bothers me, the owners.. responsible or not aren't the immediate priority the animal is as I'm sure we all agree.
I think someone said that if it was a well known member they'd get a pat on the back but a newb one wouldn't, but not so long ago a well known member thought her dog was pregnant and she got the same lecture as any other new member if i remember rightly, and she too felt as though she couldn't continue with the thread for a while.
I didn't mean to offend anyone, I think sometimes I don't put things right
Clare xx


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Excellent post, Lauren001



> I ment that if people get shot down they might dissapear and then have no help, that's all that bothers me, the owners.. responsible or not aren't the immediate priority the animal is as I'm sure we all agree.


People will always have help - from a vet. But in many cases, they have not yet bred - the bitch is being put into a risky situation by the owner, or they could have the mismate. What is very noticable is that these posters don't like it when people don't agree with them breeding so they disappear and will probably go ahead anyway. You can't change that, but you can set standards on a forum.


----------



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I've been on here for a while now and last yearw as having a litter of whippets.This litter was at the request of the bitches breeder as she wanted a pup of her. Someone asked if I was keeping a pup I eplied only if she had 4 or more pups. I was slated by someone not on the thread but by personall messages saying because I wasn't keeping a pup I was a puppy farmer. That person has only ever made one post on here and that too was to have a go at me.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

You are right in that everyone has to start somewhere - unfortunately, a lot of the people who post on forums such as this really haven't got a clue  they don't know (and often don't want to know) anything about health-testing and responsible breeding 

If someone is taking an ethical approach and researching what they are getting themselves into, I will give them as much support as I am able to - if they think they are above those who believe in responsible breeding, and often think that it is the responsible breeders who don't know what they are talking about - then I can't and won't.

I seldom coo over puppies, responsibly bred or otherwise.

As someone who keeps entire dogs and bitches in the same household - when accidents happen, I often think there but for the grace of god............... I have known people who have been breeding longer than I've been on this earth who have been caught out -so it really can happen to anyone 

If the mating is known about, and the parents are not health tested / too young / too old - then in my eyes there is only one possible option - having health tested dogs does mean that an accident may not be a catastrophe.

If the mating isn't known about until it is too late to do anything about it - then you just have to 'suck it and see, once the pups are on the ground, then really you can only want the best for them.

In summary for me, if someone is prepared to research and learn, great, if they are not, then ......................


----------



## Boudicca1959 (Aug 5, 2010)

We had nine springer spaniels .
Cost me a small fortune.sleepless nights, bottle feeding
Never did replace the carpet in the extension.(didnt make any money )
Glad we did it.
would never do it again.


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

You can also retrospectively health test so that you at least know what potentially the pups risk. For an example PRA or FN simple DNA blood tests or an eye test that can rule it out completely ok there is a cost to it that you might not be expecting but its worth the money and to be honest I think a breeder responsibility.

The only way to take a step back in breeding is to use AI if its available or to go to the puppy farm bred dogs that might not have been able to use better lines popular studs or imports but they have a host of other problems to them and still may not have the look you need, the other option is to look abroad and import dogs but even that cannot be an option in some breeds. It takes generations to make an alteration and very careful breeding. We're trying to do the same at the moment with tails where our breeds have previously been docked its not easy.

One thing that alot of people forget is that not so long ago breeders used to have the option albeit not one that I like of dipping puppies in a bucket of water or the like if they did not meet their standard or needs these days they are sold on to pet owners with no guarantee that they won't be bred.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

While I completely agree that health testing is a tool that I think breeders should use, I don't agree that the ways above listed as the 'only way to take a step back breeding', are the only ways.

Allowing the opening of stud books for careful interjections of new genetic material IS another way. The Jack Russel Terrier breed remains known as a breed, and is maintained with an open stud book. The Border Collie Association in North America also maintains an open stud book - and a recognizable breed.

The argument about this seems to be that the precise phenotypes of many breeds might be lost if this is done.

To some that makes a big difference . . . to others not so much. If the 'exactness of phenotype' is causing difficulties, higher rates of certain conditions and/or health compromises in breeds, then why are people holding on so tightly to the idea that this is important? If indeed this is important to them, then fine, but why are they trying to promote this idea to others as the only way of breeding?

I personally would rather see the open stud books and looser definitions of breeds by precise phenotype or standard.

'Breeds' were not always defined by pure bloodlines, and some still are not. I would embrace the idea of that happening again.

CC


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

The JRT is not a breed....

I think the only feasible way of improving breeds is for breeders to continue as they are - doing their best to test for, and eradicate (over time) hereditary health problems. Its all very well to come up with theories, but none of them are do-able really.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> *The JRT is not a breed....*
> 
> I think the only feasible way of improving breeds is for breeders to continue as they are - doing their best to test for, and eradicate (over time) hereditary health problems. Its all very well to come up with theories, but none of them are do-able really.


. . . by your definition. Call it a strain if you want to but I will call it a breed, as it is recognizable as such.

Point being, there is a 'breed' or 'strain' of dog (more than one as there are other examples as well) that has remained recognizably unique as it should be for over a hundred years, and that is maintained with recorded and registered but not necessarily pure bloodlines (which utilize an open registry).

Jack Russell Terrier: JRTCA: Jack Russell Terrier Club of America

_"The JRTCA and its registry were founded in 1976 for the purpose of protecting and preserving the unique characteristics and working heritage of this great little terrier, and remains dedicated to that purpose today. The Club is, and always have been, emphatically opposed to recognition of the Jack Russell Terrier by any kennel club or all-breed registry. Recognition, it is believed, will be detrimental to the preservation of the Jack Russell as the sound, intelligent strain of working terrier it has been for more than 100 years."​_
Jack Russell Terrier: JRTCA: Jack Russell Terrier Club of America

For those that want to care about the terminology and the use of the word 'breed' this example does pose even some more questions.

Who decided when the definition of a 'breed' was changed to mean only by pure bloodline, and what authority did they have to do so? All I have seen is that the self-appointed registries have been the ones to change this in history . . . motivation being control and their own monetary gain.

Why should the rest of us accept this definition? I knew it when I saw a Jack Russell Terrier 40 years ago same as I do now. Same goes for Border Collies. Why suddenly then is someone trying to tell others that the Jack Russell is not a breed? What has changed here?

CC


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> . . . by your definition. Call it a strain if you want to but I will call it a breed, as it is recognizable as such.
> 
> Point being, there is a 'breed' or 'strain' of dog (more than one as there are other examples as well) that has remained recognizably unique as it should be for over a hundred years, and that is maintained with recorded and registered but not necessarily pure bloodlines (which utilize an open registry).
> 
> ...


The Kennel Club are the only ones who are able to accept (or define if you like) a breed and the UK KC have not recognised the JRT as a breed, they never have done so there is no sudden change there. We only have the parsons recognised. Things may be different in america but im talking about the UK KC as this is mostly a UK based forum and certainly the discussion seems to be aimed at UK breeders from what i understand.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Don't think I agree with that. Just because they are not a KC recognised breed, doesn't make them not a breed. There are breeds that are not yet recognised by the KC. There are breeds that were once recognised by the kennel club but because of falling numbers have since been taken off the KC register. It doesn't make them any less of a 'breed'.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Don't think I agree with that. Just because they are not a KC recognised breed, doesn't make them not a breed. There are breeds that are not yet recognised by the KC. There are breeds that were once recognised by the kennel club but because of falling numbers have since been taken off the KC register. It doesn't make them any less of a 'breed'.


It certainly makes them not an official breed :confused1:


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

how would assortative breeding work with individual but similar breeds such as Bichons & Bolognese, Cardigan and Pembroke Corgis, Belgians and Dutch Shepherds and Norfolk and Norwich terriers ?- surely if breeders of these very similar types interbred them then there would be no more Cardigans and Pembrokes just dogs that looked a bit like each breed ( and why not then use Swedish Vallhunds and Lancashire Heelers into the mix as they are equally similar breeds ) - do you see what i am getting at - there is not enough difference in type for many breeds to choose the assortatiive method and still retain the breed after all just what would you mate a Dandie Dinmont or a Schipperkee with that would result in dogs that looked like their breeds ?


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> It certainly makes them not an official breed :confused1:


Just because it's not official doesn't mean it's not a breed. No one in their right mind would have questioned the existence of the Border Collie long before it was recognized by the KC.
Both these breeds had been created to work and therefore had not been put forward to the KC for recognition for many decades.
The JRT is better off not being a KC registered breed but kept as the tough working type dog that it was intended
http://jackrussellgb.co.uk/club_info/history_aims.htm


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I believe that the JRT have huge variations in their type - my understanding of a breed is an animal whose offspring have characteristics that can be *reliably* predicted i.e always have drop ears or a smooth coat or a certain height or a defined coat color/length/markings etc etc - I would classify JRT as types rather than breeds because they generally do not breed predictably .

For example if you mate a Red Setter with another Red Setter you will always get a silky coat of a specific colour, a racy outline, drop ears and a defined height, the quality of the dogs produced may vary but you can reliably predict these characteristics because the Red Setter is a *breed*- but mate two JRT's and you may well get wire coats or smooth coats , prick or drop ears, straight or bowed forelegs, and leg length and body type can vary enormously too .

You cannot maintain specific breed characteristics by breeding in this 'loose 'way - the wider gene pools used by JRT breeders does make for greater diversity ( and that is a good thing ) but if we applied this to all breeds we would undoubtably lose many of the highly individual breeds we currently enjoy and which are only maintained by working within a closed registry system. ....would this matter ?- well you decide if you would be happy with say a generic Sled dog 'type ' rather than the choice of Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky, Eskimo Dog , Greenland Dog and Samoyed that we currently have.


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Thats exactly where the UK KC have gone wrong IMO. They only recognise breeds who have a uniform look. It would be a crying shame if the Jack Russell became recognised and suddenly people were breeding for a coat type rather than working ability. This is exactly what has happened to the BC. The UKC in the USA recognises specific working ability and will allow some aesthetic variations. This is much more likely to keep dogs 'fit for purpose'.


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Thats exactly where the UK KC have gone wrong IMO. They only recognise breeds who have a uniform look. It would be a crying shame if the Jack Russell became recognised and suddenly people were breeding for a coat type rather than working ability. This is exactly what has happened to the BC. The UKC in the USA recognises specific working ability and will allow some aesthetic variations. This is much more likely to keep dogs 'fit for purpose'.


It's another reason why working gundogs look completely different from their show counterparts in a lot of instances. 
No way can anyone think that a working ESS looks anything like the show ESS but they are both registered under the KC


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Thats exactly where the UK KC have gone wrong IMO. They only recognise breeds who have a uniform look. It would be a crying shame if the Jack Russell became recognised and suddenly people were breeding for a coat type rather than working ability. This is exactly what has happened to the BC. The UKC in the USA recognises specific working ability and will allow some aesthetic variations. This is much more likely to keep dogs 'fit for purpose'.
> Today 11:08 AM


but you hav'nt answered how most breeds could be maintained in this way - how would the method you approve of work for Italian Greyhounds for example without cross breeding ? - for most breeds there is simply not enough differences in type for assortative breeding to be viable - it works in collies because most countries have a collie type of farm dog but where is the alternative to the Italian Greyhound ? - I breed BSD - almost all countries also have flock guarders such as GSD, Dutch Shepherds, Bouviers, Picardie Shepherds etc etc should we not have separated them out into their different breeds and maintained them by using a closed registry system ?

and whilst some breeds have a distinct show/work split many others do not - breeding for predictability does NOT mean that dogs must lose their working ability !


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Bijou said:


> but you hav'nt answered how most breeds could be maintained in this way - how would the method you approve of work for Italian Greyhounds for example without cross breeding ? - for most breeds there is simply not enough differences in type for assortative breeding to be viable - it works in collies because most countries have a collie type of farm dog but where is the alternative to the Italian Greyhound ? - I breed BSD - almost all countries also have flock guarders such as GSD, Dutch Shepherds, Bouviers, Picardie Shepherds etc etc should we not have separated them out into their different breeds and maintained them by using a closed registry system ?
> 
> and whilst some breeds have a distinct show/work split many others do not - breeding for predictability does NOT mean that dogs must lose their working ability !


It's not necessarily the loss of working ability, but the exaggerated conformation of some of the breeds that has split the breeds into two groups.
Hell, even the Golden retriever in the 1970s split into two distinct types, the show type being far too heavy to be able to work to any standard.
Luckily, that doesn't generally seem to be the case with this breed now


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I'd be interested to know how many breeders of working Cockers , Springers and other gundogs increase their available genetic diversity by using show lines ? - I'd be willing to bet that most stick to their own working gene pool which would be just as closed as that of the show dogs 

Of course working folk are more willing to deliberately cross breed ( to produce Sprockers for example ) but for those that do not I think the same method of line breeding to improve the charcateristics they want ( ie workability) is used - how many times have you seen adverts for working pups boasting of the number of FT Champions in the pedigree and very sucessful working dogs are just as likely to be overused as their show counterparts.


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Bijou said:


> I'd be interested to know how many breeders of working Cockers , Springers and other gundogs increase their available genetic diversity by using show lines ? - I'd be willing to bet that most stick to their own working gene pool which would be just as closed as that of the show dogs
> 
> Of course working folk are more willing to deliberately cross breed ( to produce Sprockers for example ) but for those that do not I think the same method of line breeding to improve the charcateristics they want ( ie workability) is used - how many times have you seen adverts for working pups boasting of the number of FT Champions in the pedigree and very sucessful working dogs are just as likely to be overused as their show counterparts.


With Labs and Goldies this is quite feasible, with most of the Spaniel breeds it just won't work unfortunately. 
The types have just gone too far apart. Why would you want to try and get a working ESS or Cocker with overly large ears that would rip in cover, also a Clumber with such drooping eye lids that would rip in bramble?
I do think we are talking at slightly cross purposes here


----------



## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Can we see some pics of the different breeds - working and showing? 

Going by the pic of the ESS the working one looks tonnes better!


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I'd be interested to know how many breeders of working Cockers , Springers and other gundogs increase their available genetic diversity by using show lines ?





> With Labs and Goldies this is quite feasible, with most of the Spaniel breeds it just won't work unfortunately.


Can't comment on Goldens, but although it does happen, it's really the minority that do. The few who do tend to specifically go down the dual purpose route. Just as the working labs look quite different (although not in all cases) to many of their show counterparts, so the show labs have lost a lot of their natural working ability and are too heavy for anything but the smallest shoots.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Can we see some pics of the different breeds - working and showing?


Can only do links as I have no idea how to post pics, and the difficulty is that you will rarely get a working lab in a show stand, they are all sitting.
but here are some kennels.

A working lab (look under dogs at stud for images)
riverswaygundogs.co.uk

and this years Crufts BOB show lab
Sh Ch Naiken Way Out West JW


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Working type Cocker









Show type Cocker


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Working type Clumber









Show type


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> With Labs and Goldies this is quite feasible, with most of the Spaniel breeds it just won't work unfortunately.
> The types have just gone too far apart. Why would you want to try and get a working ESS or Cocker with overly large ears that would rip in cover, also a Clumber with such drooping eye lids that would rip in bramble?
> I do think we are talking at slightly cross purposes here


Dont want to go off the topic entirely, but weve only had our cocker since january and dont know all of the history of cockers, but charlie does have much shorter ears than any cocker i have seen he is working breed, is from a fantastic pedigree a long line of working cockers, is this how they should/used to be i.e in working breed.


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Working type Goldie ( 99% always Golden in colour)









Show type


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

MarKalAm said:


> Makes you question show breed standards.
> Eps the Clumber.


Um - there is NO show breed standard, there is a breed standard - for Labs at least written predominantly by working folk.

If you put that breed standard against both show bred and working bred labs - it quickly becomes apparent which side actually meets the standards better.

There are some cracking looking successful working dogs who have substance - but there are also working labs that are more like whippets, do not resemble the breed standard and quite often look nothing like a Lab.

It does help to know what you are talking about before making statements like that

The labrador should be as below - i.e. NOT a whippet

General Appearance
Strongly built, short-coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters

Head and Skull
Skull broad with defined stop; clean-cut without fleshy cheeks. Jaws of medium length, powerful not snipy. Nose wide, nostrils well developed.

Body
Chest of good width and depth, with well sprung barrel ribs - this effect not to be produced by carrying excessive weight. Level topline. Loins wide, short-coupled and strong.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> so the show labs have lost a lot of their natural working ability and are too heavy for anything but the smallest shoots.


Not all of them -

Warringah's kennel both show and work their dogs

Working

as do Abbeystead and Leospring, and there are many other kennels taking a growing interest in training their dogs.

One of my three quarters show bred pups from my last litter went to a working home and will be out regularly on the shoot and may compete in the future.

Likewise, four of my dogs have been assessed by a working gundog trainer and shown great potential.

There are working bred dogs out there in pet homes with no interest in working, just as there are many show bred dogs out there with a very keen natural instinct for working.

Would they have the stamina? stamina is something that can be developed - any fit dog put through it's paces can develop the stamina required to keep going - providing the exercise is built up over time.


----------



## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

I have a working beagle and she is different to the show beagle. They are much leaner than the show beagle and some look like leggy jack russels.

she is a retired hunt beagle


----------



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Bijou said:


> but you hav'nt answered how most breeds could be maintained in this way - how would the method you approve of work for Italian Greyhounds for example without cross breeding ? - for most breeds there is simply not enough differences in type for assortative breeding to be viable - it works in collies because most countries have a collie type of farm dog but where is the alternative to the Italian Greyhound ? - I breed BSD - almost all countries also have flock guarders such as GSD, Dutch Shepherds, Bouviers, Picardie Shepherds etc etc should we not have separated them out into their different breeds and maintained them by using a closed registry system ?
> 
> and whilst some breeds have a distinct show/work split many others do not - breeding for predictability does NOT mean that dogs must lose their working ability !


Italian greyhounds are toy dogs so why would you want an alternative to them? If you want a small sight hound to work then get a whippet.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Not all of them - ALL these dogs are ring Show Champions who have gone way past their Show Gun Working Certificate (the first is a straight crossover mating - father FTW / mother show Champion)


I can see how a SGWC is something to achieve in show circles - and I'm not trying to take anything away from those that do it, but it is really very very basic stuff and not something that a working person would measure a working dog by.



> Warringah's kennel both show and work their dogs
> 
> Working
> 
> ...


I know, and I also know Joy and Chris and their dogs too. 

Lets just say that a show person's idea of a working dog is not a working person's 
I have seen show dogs working - I have trained along side people training show dogs and I don't want to take anything away from those who want to trying working their show dogs, but the natural instincts that are obvious in working dogs are not there or are only or are only slightly there.

And it is nothing to do with fitness that they would struggle with getting over/under some of the places required on a shoot - they lack the agility and are too heavy. They lack the drive to keep going in the same way working bred dogs do. TBF, it's hardly surprising - they have been not bred with working in mind and have lost that drive over the years. I know there are those that are trying to produce dual purpose dogs by injecting some working blood in and good luck to them - but for the majority of working people, there would be no benefit in injecting show lines into working ones.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I can see how a SGWC is something to achieve in show circles - and I'm not trying to take anything away from those that do it, but it is really very very basic stuff and not something that a working person would measure a working dog by


The dogs I've identified have gone way past their SGWC - you will probably know of Anchor (1st photo above) who lives with Joy and Chris and one of the few dogs to have achieved in both show and field - but clearly is not synonymous with what you would expect a working dog to look like.

The other dogs I've linked to have also gone way past their SGWC



rocco33 said:


> And it is nothing to do with fitness that they would struggle with getting over/under some of the places required on a shoot - they lack the agility and are too heavy. They lack the drive to keep going in the same way working bred dogs do.


If I didn't want to contravene copyright - I can post more than a handful of photos disproving this theory. I can also show you titled working dogs who don't meet with the theory of all looking like whippets and actually carrying considerable substance.

The argument will never die - the show labrador in good hard condition meets the breed standard written predominantly by working folk far more than many of the working bred dogs do - yet the breed standard remains unchanged !


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

The SGWC is seen as a bit of a cop out in my main breed mainly because getting a FT win is so difficult that only a few in the last 50 years have got through sheer hard work and carefully campaigning their dogs. We don't go up against our own breed like labs and cockers but against all the HPR breeds and that does make a difference when the restriction per competition is 12 runners.

It is a step in the right direction though anything that gets show dogs worked has got to be a good thing.:thumbup:


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

Bijou said:


> I'd be interested to know how many breeders of working Cockers , Springers and other gundogs increase their available genetic diversity by using show lines ? - I'd be willing to bet that most stick to their own working gene pool which would be just as closed as that of the show dogs
> 
> Of course working folk are more willing to deliberately cross breed ( to produce Sprockers for example ) but for those that do not I think the same method of line breeding to improve the charcateristics they want ( ie workability) is used - how many times have you seen adverts for working pups boasting of the number of FT Champions in the pedigree and very sucessful working dogs are just as likely to be overused as their show counterparts.


To be honest those that do mix the show and working lines are not looked well on by either type of breeder and you will be told you've not researched your lines properly... shame really.

I'm not sure crossing english springers with cockers will help either a sprocker is a cross between two spaniel types but you get too large a mix in the bag. Look at the litter I have (and these were not intentionally bred) both are working lines not show so they do have that in their favour if I were intentionally breeding for working homes but there is no consistancy in the pups some resemble sire some dam but you won't know what you've really got till they were adults. If you were going to breed you would take the show and working of each type trying to get as close to a middle ground as possible and then over generations breed for less feathering. Although alot of workering cockers have a softer coat its not actually what alot of working people want because a rougher coat is actually better for keeping the dog dry especially if they are sitting in rain or swimming for duck for example. I had a great debate about this as there is some coat difference in different lines. Colour popularity has been something I've noticed lately.

Alternatively you would give the show dogs an opportunity to work and then take the best of those to breed from... no reason they shouldn't have a close trim during the season


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Swarthy - I don't think it right to comment on particular dogs on an open forum - particularly as I HAVE actually seen several of the ones you mention in action. 

Suffice to say that I echo nfp's words



> It is a step in the right direction though anything that gets show dogs worked has got to be a good thing


But they are miles apart on working ability.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> To be honest those that do mix the show and working lines are not looked well on by either type of breeder and you will be told you've not researched your lines properly... shame really


In labs, it's not that they are not looked on well by either type, but that they have limitations in both fields. Certainly in labs, there are many, many pet bred dogs that have a working/show pedigree. The vast majority haven't been bred with any thought though so no, they probably haven't researched their lines. But there are also a few (a very few) who are actually aiming for a dual purpose dog. A dog that they can show that also has working ability. They all inject some working blood into show lines to varying degrees, although, as I say, while they can do ok in either field, they will never set the world alight in either field.


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

I suppose someone has to start somewhere to get a dual dog in split breeds it would be nice to see support from the clubs. How do they fair in labs??

Have you noticed an increase in people who usually show going to gundog training?? We've had an increase I think more because of petrol and the cost of shows with peoples reduced incomes but also because of the push by the KC. I know some people have been surprised by their dogs abillities given the opportunity.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> We don't go up against our own breed like labs


Labs don't go against their own breed either 

They are a retriever breed which includes Goldens and Flatcoats - ok - so it's not much competition  

Sorry, golden and flattie owners - just pulling your leg


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

:lol::lol: I'm afraid in HPRs its the GSPs and GWPs that do well much flashier than the Weimaraner and more predominant breeds in working hands. The Weimaraner is seen too much as hard work.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Have you noticed an increase in people who usually show going to gundog training??


Within the breed clubs yes, not within the gundog clubs though.

TBH, the majority who start with a show or show/working or even a pet bred lab, once bitten by the bug will opt for a working bred lab for their next dog. I think the exceptions are those that are already showing and just want to do a bit of gundog training. It's rare to see a purely show bred dog actually run in novice tests, the few that do compete do so in Novice Dog/Novice Handler and rarely win out. The very few that Swarthy mentions that run in Novice FT usually have some working blood in them inspite of which they do well in the ring. To be fair, working dogs come in all shapes, and there are quite a few heavier FT dogs.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but clearly is not synonymous with what you would expect a working dog to look like.


I don't really have an expectations of what a working dog should look like. I have a preference for what I like, but the natural hunting ability and trainability of the dog is far more important.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I don't really have an expectations of what a working dog should look like. I have a preference for what I like, but the natural hunting ability and trainability of the dog is far more important.


I wasn't really referring to you - but generally other people's perceptions of how they seem to think they should look, and their corresponding criticism of how show dogs look. The amount of people adamant that show bred Labs are fat is quite astonishing - when in reality - very few are actually overweight - a fact that can often only be determined by putting your hands on them.

I know of one particular yellow FT CH boy and was quite astonished at how well built he was


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

I get funny looks when I start asking to groap other peoples dogs :lol:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

nfp20 said:


> I get funny looks when I start asking to groap other peoples dogs :lol:


PMSL. My youngest girl id 3/4 show bred and is very different to the rest of my gang - I often look at her and think she is fat - but when you put your hands on her it is quite easy to see she is nothing of the sort


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

have _no _idea about gundogs but interesting reading, thanks guys!


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

yep interesting stuff - my comments though were about the inference that it is the closed registry system that leads to problems ( with small gene pools ) and that some people feel that we should be breeding for types rather than specific breeds 


> Thats exactly where the UK KC have gone wrong IMO. They only recognise breeds who have a uniform look.


- 
there is certainly a push in some quarters for open stud books where any dog that vaguely resembles it's breed can be registered and a looser interpretation of breed standards- my belief is that this would work with some breeds but could not work for the overwhelming majority



> Italian greyhounds are toy dogs so why would you want an alternative to them?


and *that's* my point - there IS no alternative to them ( and most breeds) that would make this kind of 'open registry' workeable - without cross breeding !

back to the work /show split - in my view unless you know that all your pups are going to be worked then it can be irresponsible to breed specifically for working ability - go round any rescue centre and it will NOT be full of show bred Cockers , Springers or Border Collies - but there will be a vey good chance that it will have their working cousins there whose frustrated high working drives have made them unsuited to the average suburban home. Lets face it the most important criteria for the average pet dog is a bombproof temperament - if they are pinging off the walls and highly reactive then owners who just wanted a pet will be much more likely to give up on them.

We need to look more closely at what 'Fit for function' actually means these days - is there really a place in the average semi for a dog that retains it's drive to be highly defensive, or to herd obsessively or to be active for hours on end - for most dogs their function is to be companions - should we not be breeding them to fit this function first and foremost ?

It seems to me that some breeders of working dogs claim the moral high ground by their focus on breeding for working ability but in fact unless working line breeders ONLY sell to working homes then it is the show breeders with their emphasis on good temperament ( after all how else would you get a dog that allows a total starnger to man handle their 'bits' ! ) that produce dogs that are truly fit for their new function


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

What an excellent post Bijou 

I know in France, they have the type of registry you refer to - with no dogs receiving full registration until after 18 months having undergone quite an intensive "confirmation".

This means that technically an unregistered UK Lab could go to France and achieve full registration there despite not being registered with the UK KC. (before anyone believes thats a licence to breed unregistered dogs, the tests are *tough*) - also in France to become a Champion, the dog has to be a trialer as well as show.

=============================

People criticise show bred dogs - but temperament MUST be paramount - it's not just about 'handling the dogs bits' - although you make a excellent and very valid point.

Dogs who are shown regularly are taken into alien environments with hundreds and often thousands of other dogs of all shapes and sizes - yet in my six years of showing I can still count on my fingers the amount of spats I've witnessed, that requires a pretty special type of dog - and in such an environment, it is virtually impossible to mask a poor temperament.

I do know of some working homes that won't home to pet homes -

Having said all that, certainly in my own breed, I don't think it is as straight forward as saying all show bred dogs are laid back and all working bred dogs are wired - I've known of working bred dogs happy to veg out on the sofa - and I know of show bred dogs who are 'wired'.

My eldest girl is a mixture of pet / working / show - very elite working lines at that - she is the most intelligent laid back girl I've ever had the pleasure to meet - she is so intuitive I call her my 'humador'.

Both her litters have been to wholly show bred dogs - daughter 1 is even more laid back than her mother - she's the type of dog you could happily own a 100 of and never have a days headache.

Daughter 2 is a completely different animal - wired doesn't cover it - conformationally she is better than her sister - although smaller in frame - her speed and agileness is terrifying. A five feet fence is nothing for her from a standing position - I've seen her clear spaces of around 10/12 feet so fast if you blinked you would miss it - given the choice she would swim and run all day - and sleeps for about 5 hours a day if we are lucky  As a puppy we nicknamed her the 'psycho midget' which we have now changed to 'creeping ivy' because she is so light on her feet, you just don't know she is there :scared:

One instance sticks in my mind of her on the beach having been running / swimming / retrieving for well over an hour when a Lurcher presented itself in front of her - she continued to chase and stay on the heels of this lurcher for the best part of 20 minutes / half hour until both owners had to stop them - even then she didn't settle when she came home and spent the rest of the day in the pool 

Number 1's daughter is also to a show bred dog - and she looks it - at 10 months she is wider than her mother and completely different to any of my other dogs - yet for agility and speed she can give daughter number 2 a run for her money and some  she can also clear 5 foot easily from a standing position  we have yet to test her stamina.

My show bred boy with working at the back is so laid back, any moreso and he would be horizontal - 30 minutes playing / running with Daughter no 2 and we won't see or hear from him for the next 5 or 6 hours :scared:

============================

I guess the point of the above is that we generalise between the two types, and yes, there is a leaning with show and working towards their stereotypes, but these stereotypes are far from cast in stone.


----------



## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

nfp20 said:


> :lol::lol: I'm afraid in HPRs its the GSPs and GWPs that do well much flashier than the Weimaraner and more predominant breeds in working hands. The Weimaraner is seen too much as hard work.


My dad hunted with a weimeraner and she was a great dog in the field, but like you said they are hard work to train to this standard as they seem to question everything you tell them. she was great at picking up as long as it wasnt a pidgeon as their feather come out easier

The dog that is the stud for my litter that is due is a dual work/show. This I must admit is a huge factor to why I chose him. I think for working dogs it is imortant as many of their traits for hunting are within their breeding. Also it is of huge importance that are fit for their purpose. In his younger days he was a very succesful show dog and he is both show champ and field trial champion. He is also in the kc campaign for fit for function. I dont understand the way that field trial works but his owner said he only has to win one more event and he will have one all of the awards and is the only vizsla to ever do this. sorry for being vague but dont know much about fnk for field trials. He is very lucky dog as he lives on a farm and goes out hunting all the time with his owner:thumbup:


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> back to the work /show split - in my view unless you know that all your pups are going to be worked then it can be irresponsible to breed specifically for working ability - go round any rescue centre and it will NOT be full of show bred Cockers , Springers or Border Collies - but there will be a vey good chance that it will have their working cousins there whose frustrated high working drives have made them unsuited to the average suburban home. Lets face it the most important criteria for the average pet dog is a bombproof temperament - if they are pinging off the walls and highly reactive then owners who just wanted a pet will be much more likely to give up on them.


There are many working bred labs living very happilyl in pet homes. They need a bombproof temperament to be able to work, and they won't ping off the walls or be highly reactive either - such traits would not make an easy working retriever so those traits would not be desirable. TBH, if someone wants a couch potato, I don't think any lab, working/show or pet would be suitable or many other breeds too.



> It seems to me that some breeders of working dogs claim the moral high ground by their focus on breeding for working ability but in fact unless working line breeders ONLY sell to working homes then it is the show breeders with their emphasis on good temperament ( after all how else would you get a dog that allows a total starnger to man handle their 'bits' ! ) that produce dogs that are truly fit for their new function


I don't think anyone's claiming the moral high ground - I have no problem with what show or even pet homes want in their labs or how they wish to breed them. I am simply enormously relieved that there is a variety within the breed.

Working lab breeders do not focus on breeding for working ability and temperament is a top priority and certainly not only done by show breeders.
To fully understand what is required of a working retriever ( I can't speak for other breeds) good temperament, steadiness, bidability and quietness are all paramount. Without those things you don't have a working dog, you probably have to understand a little of the job they have to do. Steadiness is key. In a drive with possibly 30+ birds falling out of the sky all around them (maybe even a few yards away) (or dummies on working tests), they have to sit quietly and calmly off lead and not move or make a sound until told to go and 'fetch'. If sent for a runner, they have to be able to stop mid flight (in full 'chase' drive on a whistle if required. If breeding for drive alone, you would have an uphill battle training such a dog.

Working dogs make excellent pets. They do not ping off walls or are highly reactive - they'd be thrown off a shoot if they were and be incredibly difficult to train. A lot of work goes into training a gundog and you wouldn't want to waste time on a dog that was difficult to train so those qualities need to be inbred. My dogs get 30 mins exercise twice a day, the rest of the time they veg out on the sofas. In work mode they will go all day. In fact, it's probably the ability to switch on and off that is a hallmark of a working dog.

Where the main danger lies is in brain power. They are intelleigent dogs and , rather like border collies, will just as quickly learn things you don't want them to do than things you do, especially if left to their own devices.

With regards what is lacking in show/pet bred dogs it is the drive and intelligence to work alone. Most dogs can be trained to do the basics - there is even a doberman around here that has been trained in gundog work. Where they lack is in the ability to keep going and work things out, although there are certainly those that can do some picking up or rough shooting and they make great companions for their owners. A working dog needs to be able to work possibly 100/200 yards ahead, possibly out of sight in woods or heavy cover where a handler can't see or control the dog. It has to be able to work on it's own and not give up. This is an area where non-working bred dogs fall down. 'Trust your dog' is a well known saying in working circles, and this is where they have to work on their own initiative.

And while many working bred dogs do make excellent pets, many breeders do not sell to pet homes simply because they want their dogs to go to working homes because their natural abilities will be put to good use and will be somewhat wasted in a pet home. There is nothing quite like seeing the enjoyment a dog gets from doing what it was bred to do. It comes alive. I have always had working labs, have done obedience and agility with them in the past, but their love of doing gundog work exceeds their love of other activities. They'll be happy doing them all, but the the other activities do not compare to the palpable love of doing what they were bred to do. And if you've carefully bred a litter you want those pups to go to homes where they will be happy doing what they love to do.


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> There are many working bred labs living very happilyl in pet homes. They need a bombproof temperament to be able to work, and they won't ping off the walls or be highly reactive either - such traits would not make an easy working retriever so those traits would not be desirable. TBH, if someone wants a couch potato, I don't think any lab, working/show or pet would be suitable or many other breeds too.
> 
> I don't think anyone's claiming the moral high ground - I have no problem with what show or even pet homes want in their labs or how they wish to breed them. I am simply enormously relieved that there is a variety within the breed.
> 
> ...


Spot on. :thumbup: English Shepherds make great pets and are great workers too.


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Perhaps Labs are a different kettle of fish to Border Collies or Springers and Cockers - I am the rescue liason member for my own breed club and I can tell you that whilst we have a waiting list for Groens and Tervs ( who are almost exclusively show bred ) we have a big problem with working bred Malinois whose wired temperament and high drives makes them VERY difficult to rehome responsibly - mine is also a breed with a brain and many many show BSD also have siblings that work at agility or obedience the difference is that because they have not been bred with working drives as the foremost target they also make great active family pets - this type of advert just makes me cringe



> Malinois Pups for sale - Born 16 may and ready now, 1 female still available, from top working bloodlines in North London. Wormed and frontlined, kennel holding/temp.vaccs. Absolutely superb puppies. The best family, house and property protection available, and they give pleasure too. Malinois are extremely loyal and loving, they are high drive, and mature quickly to be protective


no problem if they were all going to working homes where their instinct to be protective is useful ...but a real liabilty in the average family setting !


----------



## chilady (Aug 22, 2010)

i agree with the first post i have bred puppies for years (rotties) and have recently decided to change the breed to chihuahuas and no one wants to offer any advice how are we meant to gain the knowledge if no one wants to give it its seems to be like a dog breeders cult were people call you irrisponsible all you breeders out there started off once upon a time needing knowledge ????


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

All my springers and cocker are from working breed and they are great pets, not at all unsuitable for a family environment.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chilady said:


> i agree with the first post i have bred puppies for years (rotties) and have recently decided to change the breed to chihuahuas and no one wants to offer any advice how are we meant to gain the knowledge if no one wants to give it its seems to be like a dog breeders cult were people call you irrisponsible all you breeders out there started off once upon a time needing knowledge ????


If you have been breeding for years, surely you would know where to go to get the basic knowledge.

There is NO breeders cult whatsoever that I can see - I have always said new blood is needed to ensure the knowledge, skills and experience don't die with the older more experienced breeders.

From what I can see, these forums present a valuable mine of information on situations someone may face when breeding, buying a puppy, standing a dog at stud, getting a rescue dog - I don't however see them as the best place to start for many of the people who post asking for advice who are, with the greatest respect, often clueless and know nothing more than either

believing the old wives tale' that a bitch should be allowed to have a litter before neutering,

it's going to generate them some spare cash (I wish),

they want a clone of their existing girl (it doesn't happen) or

because it would be a nice thing to do -

with no foresight or recognition that in a worst case scenario, they could end up financially massively out of pocket, no puppies and without their beloved bitch.

I am all for supporting someone where I can if they have done some research first - or simply for me, even a recognition that they want to improve their bitch - some will argue that only 'the best' should be bred from - perfection doesn't always produce perfection - and how do you improve on perfection?

If it were simply a case of maintaining the status quo in a perfect breed - the same dog(s) would win at the same shows week in, week out, and yes, while there are those that really do stand out from the crowd - notwithstanding this, places are switched due to a judge's acceptance of a recognised fault and how they warrant this in their judging criteria - and whether we like it or not, there will always be an element of subjectiveness in judging, whether that be for colour, gender or some other feature of the breed.

To my mind, while there will always be those that believe no-one should breed - the demand for puppies will remain - but if someone wants advice, then with a bit of common sense, surely they can write that request in a manner which will attract more help than criticism?


----------



## MontyA (Feb 3, 2010)

I haven't read every post on here - took too long, so apologies if I'm saying something that has already been said. I've never posted in this section before, and I must admit when I've read the title of certain threads I've cringed knowing that there's potentially going to be a slating of some sort. 

However I think that within that there are always people willing to help and offer their support and guidance. I also think that the people who choose to criticise, even when the situation has already occurred, also have a part to play. If they didn't make their comments then it wouldn't provoke thought and consideration from another person potentially thinking about breeding from their dog/ bitch.

Yes it may seem harsh at times, but people only have the welfare of dogs at heart. If it makes one person think twice about breeding their pretty/ good natured/ friendly bitch, or educates them that an injection is available, then I think it's worth it.

If everyone just gave their congratulations. or expressed excitement about new puppies, then an educational opportunity could be missed. And I speak from the point of view of a non expert, but I have learnt a lot.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> However I think that within that there are always people willing to help and offer their support and guidance. I also think that the people who choose to criticise, even when the situation has already occurred, also have a part to play. If they didn't make their comments then it wouldn't provoke thought and consideration from another person potentially thinking about breeding from their dog/ bitch.
> 
> Yes it may seem harsh at times, but people only have the welfare of dogs at heart. If it makes one person think twice about breeding their pretty/ good natured/ friendly bitch, or educates them that an injection is available, then I think it's worth it.
> 
> If everyone just gave their congratulations. or expressed excitement about new puppies, then an educational opportunity could be missed. And I speak from the point of view of a non expert, but I have learnt a lot.


Thank you MontyA. I feel exactly the same and I think it is the nature of a forum. The original question may be from one poster, but the information written will be read and absorbed by many many readers, some of whom may not even be members. It is not like having a one to one conversation. If it helps educate or give food for thought to one other person, then it is worth it.


----------



## Guest (Aug 25, 2010)

And for what its worth I do not think that a forum is where you come to learn about welping a litter! Yep there will always be people around to offer advice and to point out any possible downfalls! But lets face it! at the end of the day when push comes do shove your bitch is you responsibility! you owe it to her to get the best treatment possible! and owners need to get it out of their heads that welping can be done by text book! It can't - things can and do go wrong!


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I believe it is purely based on breed more than being a 1st time breeder. Like there are too many staffies in rescues so the advice would be, please dont bring more into the world at this point.
> 
> I am new to breeding, infact I have not even bred my first litter yet. However If you do research, can afford and provide for pups and have homes lined up and health test the members of this forum are more than happy for you.
> :thumbup:


argghh This my point what give people the right NOT to be happy for you?


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> argghh This my point what give people the right NOT to be happy for you?


ummmm..... free will?

You can't expect people to be happy that there is another poorly bred litter, destined to end up in rescue. I know I don't jump for joy when I see threads like "accidental mating" or "My schnoodlyshitzadoodle is pregnant" . I'm definitely not happy about the situation, but I'll put my principles aside to help the "breeder" keep their bitch alive if they come on here with a heavily pregnant bitch.

Either way, I'm not happy. I'm doing what I feel is my duty as I have the knowledge to help out a bitch and breeder in distress.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> argghh This my point what give people the right NOT to be happy for you?


I have a right to be happy or unhappy about whatever I like. What gives you the right to tell people what they should be happy about?


----------



## Guest (Aug 25, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> argghh This my point what give people the right NOT to be happy for you?


It actually makes me quite sad! potentially every pup brought into this world is a death warrent for one in rescue!


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> It actually makes me quite sad! potentially every pup brought into this world is a death warrent for one in rescue!


---

Well this is only true if all puppy buyers only want Staffy croses or Lurchers !!
the folk on my waiting list ONLY want a Groenendael and are prepared to wait for what they want .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Guest (Aug 26, 2010)

Bijou said:


> ---
> 
> Well this is only true if all puppy buyers only want Staffy croses or Lurchers !!
> the folk on my waiting list ONLY want a Groenendael and are prepared to wait for what they want .
> ...


Beautiful dogs! I only ever saw one in the flesh and thought it were a black GS.
I think problems arise when more unusual dogs get into the hands of byb who then proceed to cross them with any breed that barks and then demand higher price tags for them! lets hope that never happens!


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Giving people bad advice - including unethical, incorrect, or inappropriate advice - is WORSE IMO than not giving advice at all.

We are not talking about picking a new telly - we are talking about the lives of sentient creatures; the very dogs we all claim to care about. Irresponsible breeding practices cause immense amounts of suffernig - to the ault breeding dogs, to the pups, to the general population of dogs at large including dogs in rescues and future generations. Virtually ALL of this suffering could be prevented by people listening to good advice in the first place.

Now I have no problem whatsoever with responsible caring breeders. Most of the good ones have a wealth of dog experience and have been mentored by an excellent established breeder. Solo's breeder was "in" bichons for over 10 years before she bred her first litter, having been involved in owning, showing, judging and been mentored first. As a result, her dogs are extensively health tested, champions in the show ring worldwide, well reared, well socialised, and only sold to people she approves having met them in person.

The person who comes on demanding to know how to get their un-tested mongrel knocked up on her first season should NOT be told how to do it. They should absolutely be told that the bitch is too young, that she needs to be health tested, that the breeder needs to get advice in person from a decent breeder, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like rudeness and people being "jumped on" but from what I have seen people whine the moment anyone disagrees with them or tells them something they don't want to hear.

The moment someone suggests that actually it might not be appropriate / ethical / safe / etc to breed from this particular dog, at this particular time, in this particular way they now get grief for criticising.

Would you perhaps prefer we all said "Yeah - why doesn't everyone go out and buy puppy farm dogs, breed from them, on their first season, rear them in cages in a tiny shed... Lets scrap all health testing. Lets breed for crippled dogs that can't run or breathe. Lets churn out as many pups as we can and b****cks to the ones dying in rescue. Lets produce pups that will be unable to walk by two years, or will go blind at age three, or will require surgery in order to stay alive. Lets breed from adults with known behaviour problems so we can create a whole generation of nervous aggressive dogs. Lets rear them in such a way as to ensure they will never be properly socialised or housetrained. Lets sell them to all those thugs, chavs, junkies and dog fighters who want to kick them around to impress their mates. Congrats on hurting yet more dogs! Well done, have a twinkie!"

Personally, I think I'll stick to "please don't breed...."


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think problems arise when more unusual dogs get into the hands of byb who then proceed to cross them with any breed that barks and then demand higher price tags for them! lets hope that never happens!


No - problems arise when BYB and PF produce puppies, end of - doesn't matter what breed they are, what cross they might be, whether they are KC registered or not. I am aware that not every dog in rescue is produced this way, but often, those from responsible breeders end up there because the new owner didn't have the courage of their convictions to pick up the phone and tell the breeder they need to rehome  then of course we have the sometimes unavoidable situations such as owner bereavement.

One of our local rescues is filled to overflowing with ex-breeding bitches and PF puppes.

As for breeds such as staffies, they've been crucified by ignorant owners and onlookers, not understanding what dog they actually own, or believing that a single vicious act means the problems are inherent in a breed, spurred on massively by the media 

When you start digging deeper on some of these acts, you realise often (I do appreciate not always) the dog could have been any dog, put in a bad situation by an irresponsible owner.

---------------------------------------

I often point puppy enquiries to rescue if I don't feel they are suitable for an 8 week old puppy, but as the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water..........." and in a breed such as my own where there is always another litter around the corner, there is only so much you can do.

We spent two years trawling the rescues when we wanted our first family dog, but my daughters (then) nervousness around dogs meant eventually we had no other option but to get a pup.

Fast forward 18 months, and we again trawled the rescues with no longer nervous daughter, but this time, the rescues wouldn't home with us because we had an entire bitch, even though we would have been homing a neutered bitch (because they quite explicitly didn't want any accidents between the dogs, in which case I think maybe a biology lesson or two is in order).

-------------------

There will nearly always be room (in most breeds) for new responsible blood in breeding - because otherwise we stand to lose a massive amount of knowledge and experience which will never be replaced.

What there definitely isn't room for is more unhealth-tested, ill thought out litters which often occur on a whim (or less) by an uneducated owner who isn't aware of what can be done to prevent it.

------------------------

Legislation and the powers that be have failed to stop BYB and Puppy Farmers, so it is down to puppy buyers to stop them, they can only do this by not buying from them, unfortunately we are dealing with human nature in an area where the heart will continue to rule the head


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Colette said:


> Giving people bad advice - including unethical, incorrect, or inappropriate advice - is WORSE IMO than not giving advice at all.
> 
> We are not talking about picking a new telly - we are talking about the lives of sentient creatures; the very dogs we all claim to care about. Irresponsible breeding practices cause immense amounts of suffernig - to the ault breeding dogs, to the pups, to the general population of dogs at large including dogs in rescues and future generations. Virtually ALL of this suffering could be prevented by people listening to good advice in the first place.
> 
> ...


Ive felt sorry for many on here coming on for advice and recieving a good slating, ive also seen some that i could just shake, but reading your thread who can argue with that, fail to find anyone that could disagree with that.


----------

