# Atopica or Apoquel



## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Hi Everyone 

I know I don't post on here very much anymore but I was really hoping for some much needed advice. We are now at the stage with Cooper where we have been trying immunotherapy for 7-8 months and nothing has changed, he is still super itchy. He is on 2 low-dosage prednisone steroids a day which totally control the itching, however the vet has now suggested we take him off the steroids, stop the immunotherapy and start him on Apoquel.

I don't want him on steroids anymore, so an alternative would be great, except for the amount of horror stories I have heard from owners who's dogs have been on Apoquel and they have developed illnesses, and even died, and this is only in the last couple of years as it hasn't been on the market that long.

Our vet is recommending Apoquel over Atopica and I have talked myself into and out of both and now I have no idea what I think anymore! I know all drugs have side effects, and not all dogs would be susceptible to these, but on the whole it is worrying when people say their dog's are developing tumours, turning aggressive, etc. after having been put on these drugs. I just really don't know what to do for the best 

I just wondered if anyone's pets are currently on either Apoquel or Atopica and how you are finding it and if anyone has any advice or comments at all? 

Thanks in advance for any advice, opinions or anything at all!!


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

We have used Apoquel with Skyla and it was wonderful, no side effects in comparison to steroids where she ate my out of house and home at any given point. 
There are a number of members here who also use Apoquel. With it being a fairly new drug there is not a lot known about it's long term use unfortunately but I think with all medication there are risks.

@SurfCFC what is Cooper allergic too? x


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Thank you for your reply @ellenlouisepascoe  He is allergic to dust mites primarily, and storage mites too.

That's great to hear you have been using Apoquel and have experienced no side effects; I'm sure these stories people post on the internet are very few and far between but it takes very little to worry me! Yes Cooper seems to always be hungry but he puts on no weight - we even feed him (raw) about 1 and half times the recommended amount. He doesn't look 'skinny' but certainly could do with bulking up a little bit; he also has very thin hair on his head, legs and his belly is pretty much bare. I know steroids can lead to this so would be fantastic to get him off them.

There are definitely risks with all medication, and especially steroids, so it is all worth a try. He has to take something so control his itching so fingers crossed Apoquel will work. We have the vets next Monday when he will get prescribed them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Arthur our pointer had a course of it for an inflammatory condition and a reaction to internal sutures after surgery. It worked really well and he had no side effects but he was only on it for a month.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Arthur our pointer had a course of it for an inflammatory condition and a reaction to internal sutures after surgery. It worked really well and he had no side effects but he was only on it for a month.


Yes I think it those dogs who are on it for months experience the nasty side effects - of course the longer the dog is on it the more side effects or the extent of those side effects I guess. That's the main thing that bothers me is that there is hardly any research into this from around 18 months onwards, it is all based upon usage for a year or so as no-one knows the extent of proper long-term use.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

@SurfCFC that is exactly the allergies Skyla has!

We have swapped her to a raw diet and we use the following products to clean the house , these were suggested by @Sled dog hotel

http://biolife-international.co.uk/shop/dustmite-allergy-prevention-pack/

We swapped to a Dyson hoover with a HEPA Filter and hoover frequently.

@SixStar suggested this anti-bacterial vet bed http://www.bronteglen.co.uk/77/dog-beds/super-gold-vet-bedding/

I bought some Dermo shampoo from Fenlands Forager's : http://www.fenlandforager.co.uk/store/product/dermo-shampoo

Now Skyla does have an itch now and again but it's greatly reduced in comparison to what it used to be like. On itchy days I give her human antihistamines :
http://cheyennewest.com/antihistamines-for-dogs-cats/


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

They're a nightmare aren't they @ellenlouisepascoe !! Thanks for the links, I have used the biolife spray and laundry detergent (as recommended most likely by Sled Dog Hotel too!) but it made no difference. I will have a look at the shampoo though, we have Wild Wash and EarthBath shampoos too. It's hard because whilst he is on steroids he is itch free so it's hard to see if anything works, and if we take him off the steroids he itches like crazy! We also tried antihistamines but they make no difference either 

The bed looks fantastic! I will look into that too, it would need to be durable as Cooper has eaten every bed we bought him... and he now has a pillow in a plastic bed!

How long was/is Skyla on the Apoquel?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SurfCFC said:


> They're a nightmare aren't they @ellenlouisepascoe !! Thanks for the links, I have used the biolife spray and laundry detergent (as recommended most likely by Sled Dog Hotel too!) but it made no difference. I will have a look at the shampoo though, we have Wild Wash and EarthBath shampoos too. It's hard because whilst he is on steroids he is itch free so it's hard to see if anything works, and if we take him off the steroids he itches like crazy! We also tried antihistamines but they make no difference either
> 
> The bed looks fantastic! I will look into that too, it would need to be durable as Cooper has eaten every bed we bought him... and he now has a pillow in a plastic bed!
> 
> How long was/is Skyla on the Apoquel?


I've taken her off it now... because like you I wasn't sure of the long term effects, she was on it for around 4/5 months maybe and from day 1 every itch disappeared. The problem with these medications if they don't treat the allergy they only stop the itching sensation. I have done a lot of reading which suggests these allergies are worse in the winter. People have suggested buying a dehumidifier to cleanse the air in the home, wet dusting instead of dusting and we now avoid any pre-made foods / treats ( that goes for tidbits of human food too ) All our food such as pasta / rice / cereal we store in air tight containers in the kitchen

It's heartbreaking, especially since Skyla did not have these allergies until I swapped her on to taste of the wild dry food  She would scratch her face raw 
This is her at her worst:










This is her now ( the rosy cheeks are stains on her fur where one of the other dogs has been licking her face but the skin is healed )


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Oh poor thing, that looks terrible  

We do all we can around the house, all our duvets and pillows have allergy protectors on them, vacuuming twice a week, but our house seems particularly dusty, even though we are pretty rigorous with the cleaning. We feed raw and I give him a supplement of fish oil daily.

I do think his allergies are pretty bad and flare up at the slightest thing, and you can never really get rid of dust mites 100%. 

I think we will be looking at giving him Apoquel (if it works) for the rest of his life; it's basically come down to that or steroids I think unfortunately


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SurfCFC said:


> Oh poor thing, that looks terrible
> 
> We do all we can around the house, all our duvets and pillows have allergy protectors on them, vacuuming twice a week, but our house seems particularly dusty, even though we are pretty rigorous with the cleaning. We feed raw and I give him a supplement of fish oil daily.
> 
> ...


We weren't even offered immunotherapy for Skyla, the vet suggested that it would make very little difference in comparison to the costs involved. 
We have had a god awful year with everything I was at the point where I was thinking our only option was for her to spend the majority of her time outside , but she is definitely a people dog and loves to be with us. Have you had a Dermatology referral? That was our next step x


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Well I emailed a dermatologist vet near to us and said we needed a referral from our vet to see him, but to be honest I am not too sure what he would do? I actually should research that a little more - do you know what sort of things hey would do for us? 

We've been told not to have cooper on our sofas, on our bed etc. but how can you do that!? He loves being with us and we love having him sleep with us! I'm sure people don't like that but hey, he's our little fur baby!! Like you, he loves to be with us wherever we are! 

I would spend all our money we have to come up with a solution for him!


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SurfCFC said:


> Well I emailed a dermatologist vet near to us and said we needed a referral from our vet to see him, but to be honest I am not too sure what he would do? I actually should research that a little more - do you know what sort of things hey would do for us?
> 
> We've been told not to have cooper on our sofas, on our bed etc. but how can you do that!? He loves being with us and we love having him sleep with us! I'm sure people don't like that but hey, he's our little fur baby!! Like you, he loves to be with us wherever we are!
> 
> I would spend all our money we have to come up with a solution for him!


Us too! Ours don't sleep with us ( or we'd never fit on the bed) but they are often up on the sofa's we just keep them covered and wash the covers often the same way we do the beds. I'm not sure how a dermatologist would be different I was hoping you did  :Hilarious

I've just remembered @shirleystarr uses apoquel so she may be able to give you some better advise than me. If Skyla flared up again badly I'd be happy to put her back on it again from what we experienced last time.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Us too! Ours don't sleep with us ( or we'd never fit on the bed) but they are often up on the sofa's we just keep them covered and wash the covers often the same way we do the beds. I'm not sure how a dermatologist would be different I was hoping you did  :Hilarious
> 
> I've just remembered @shirleystarr uses apoquel so she may be able to give you some better advise than me. If Skyla flared up again badly I'd be happy to put her back on it again from what we experienced last time.


Haha well Cooper is only tiny so he snuggles in nicely down by our feet; we barely notice him!

Well I have just emailed the dermatologist again to ask him for some general advice on costings and what the processes would be, I am hoping he can tell me because I am hesitant to commit to anything as I am sure it will be horrendously expensive, for him to probably just tell us what we already know! I will let you know what he says 

Oh does she? Hopefully she will see this message and let me know how her little one is getting on with it  If nothing else changes we will go for the Apoquel next week; if it causes him harm, I guess that is something we will have to live with; at least he won't be scratching himself to death which is one thing I suppose..

I wish we could have an NHS for our pets


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Harley has Atopica for his alleriges, he's been on it since about May last year with no side effects so far. We've been trying to reduce his dose though, as I would prefer him to be taking as little as possible, and at the moment he's on one tablet every third day (instead of one every day).

He did have Apoquel briefly for about 3-4 weeks while we waited for him immunotherapy to arrive, but when the immunotherapy turned into a nightmare and we decided to go back to tablets, there were problems with getting hold of a steady supply of Apoquel so we went with Atopica instead. I think my vet at the time (who is a friend of mine) was happier prescribing Atopica long term too, as she had obviously had more experience with it, including her own family dog who was on it for 10 years apparently!


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

My Westie Oscar was on Apoquel for a short time when he was super itchy last year. They worked within a few hours, seriously! He is off them now while we do an elimination diet which has confirmed it was food despite him always being grain free and fed very good foods (long process and we are only 3 meat proteins forward so far but no itches at all). We have a good supply of Apoquel still and our vet is happy for us to put Oscar back on them at any time if he gets itchy again.

Long term I I didn't want him on medication of any kind, he is only 3 years old .... But I would, if he had environmental allergies as these are much harder IMO. My vet doesn't rate the immunotherapy very highly and doesn't have a very high success rate in his opinions. Long term steroids also have their disadvantages.

My mother in laws Westie is on Atopica and has been for 2 years, yet she still gets flare up's of itches. The doses are always being messed around with and it's very expensive long term and honestly, I don't think it works aswell as Apoquel did. It takes weeks to see a difference, not hours like Apoquel can. Apoquel is cheaper long term aswell.

Was going to say that @ellenlouisepascoe Skyla has been diagnosed the same so glad she seen the post too! As suggested to her, it helps to get rid of fabrics ..... So wood floors are better, leather sofas, waterproof mattress covers for your own bed, good hepa filters on Hoover, steam cleaners for floors, etc.

Obviously if yours is already raw fed then that eliminates storage mites from food - do you feed any treats ?

At the end of the day, there will always be side effects from meds but if it gives Cooper a good quality of life, itch free then it's worth it.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for the replies 

Yeah I do wish he had a food allergy instead as at least then you can eliminate certain foods, which is easier I think than environmental, which you can never get away from.

That's my thought @Westie Mum , it's horrible to think but it would be better for him to have 5 years of being itch-free and having a good quality of life than 10 years of itching and pain. We do feed him raw but we feed dry treats, Lily's Kitchen, so perhaps that's not too good for him. We just couldn't justify wooden floors at the moment - were doing a house swap with my mum next year and she wants carpets here, but we will get hard floors there. I steam clean everything, wash all bedding and sofa covers weekly on a boil wash, have the anti-allergy mattress protectors etc. but will check on that hepa filter for vacuuming 

Immunotherapy had zero effect on him, but was worth a try just to see.

@magpie that was my main worry for Apoquel, atopica has been around for so much longer so there's more research into it. But my vet seems to be very keen on Apoquel. We can see how he does on that and if the side effects are bad then perhaps we will try atopica.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Just had an email back from the dermatologist;

"Hi Sophie.
An atopy work up would involve skin scrapings,cytology to check for bacteria/yeasts, Ear cytology if Otitis, Foot cytology if feet involved
Sedation and intradermal skin allergytesting
Consult Cost £100
Sedation to take samples £60
Skin scrapings £49
Allergy test £180
Cytology £36 per sample
Then treatments on top depending
Hope this helps, but to reiiterate, your vet would need to refer you to see me before I could get to work
Regards
Simon Tai"

Seems like a fair amount of tests which is good, he has already had the blood allergy so perhaps wouldn't need this again if I can get a copy from my current vet? 

Hmm I don't know, I mean would it really be any different from what we know now?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SurfCFC said:


> Just had an email back from the dermatologist;
> 
> "Hi Sophie.
> An atopy work up would involve skin scrapings,cytology to check for bacteria/yeasts, Ear cytology if Otitis, Foot cytology if feet involved
> ...


Yep that sounds exactly like what Skyla has already had. We've had scrapings , blood tests, biopsies , allergy tests ( the full panel )


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Yep that sounds exactly like what Skyla has already had. We've had scrapings , blood tests, biopsies , allergy tests ( the full panel )


Yeah, and they're only going to tell me that he has a dust mite allergy! So I don't really see the point to be honest  also having to put him through more testing and stuff...he is scared to death of the vets anyway, I don't want to unnecessarily put him through more to only find out the same as what we know now.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SurfCFC said:


> Yeah, and they're only going to tell me that he has a dust mite allergy! So I don't really see the point to be honest  also having to put him through more testing and stuff...he is scared to death of the vets anyway, I don't want to unnecessarily put him through more to only find out the same as what we know now.


I wonder if @Ceiling Kitty would know anymore about dermatologist referrals. 
Skyla hates her face being touched now, I have been working on desensitizing her to it but the poor girl was poked , prodded and punches of skin taken out of her face so I don't blame her. When she went in for her bloods to be taken for the allergy testing she had to be sedated because all she wanted to do was hug the vet nurse and wouldn't sit still.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I wonder if @Ceiling Kitty would know anymore about dermatologist referrals.
> Skyla hates her face being touched now, I have been working on desensitizing her to it but the poor girl was poked , prodded and punches of skin taken out of her face so I don't blame her. When she went in for her bloods to be taken for the allergy testing she had to be sedated because all she wanted to do was hug the vet nurse and wouldn't sit still.


As much as he hates it, Cooper's pretty good at being poked and prodded, he just stands on the vet's table and buries his head into my crotch lol!  But when he had to have blood taken he did not enjoy that; where they shaved him the hair still hasn't grown back properly so I would be hesitant for them to start shaving him for more tests again. He's going bald enough as it is!


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

SurfCFC said:


> That's my thought @Westie Mum , it's horrible to think but it would be better for him to have 5 years of being itch-free and having a good quality of life than 10 years of itching and pain. We do feed him raw but we feed dry treats, Lily's Kitchen, so perhaps that's not too good for him. We just couldn't justify wooden floors at the moment - were doing a house swap with my mum next year and she wants carpets here, but we will get hard floors there. I steam clean everything, wash all bedding and sofa covers weekly on a boil wash, have the anti-allergy mattress protectors etc. but will check on that hepa filter for vacuuming


I have to agree, quality over quantity 

I wonder if it would be worth trying the Apoquel until you move house then and once you've moved and have wood floors try weaning him off the meds to see if it's more manageable.

Treat wise, I'd be inclined to stop giving biscuit type treats which could still harbour mites.

Have you used Indorex to treat the house ? (Again hoover needs a hepa filter for removing dead mites after treatment)

No advise on the dermatologist as never had to use one - but as said, not really sure what you would gain.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Westie Mum said:


> I have to agree, quality over quantity
> 
> I wonder if it would be worth trying the Apoquel until you move house then and once you've moved and have wood floors try weaning him off the meds to see if it's more manageable.
> 
> ...


We removed all treats too , I removed them all from my house and ended up with a big argos carrier bag to take to the local kennels :Shy


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Westie Mum said:


> I have to agree, quality over quantity
> 
> I wonder if it would be worth trying the Apoquel until you move house then and once you've moved and have wood floors try weaning him off the meds to see if it's more manageable.
> 
> ...


Yes I think that sounds like a good idea, I mean they get you to lower the dose anyway so fingers crossed he will be ok on the lower dosage; he's small anyway so won't be on the higher one to begin with. Then perhaps we would be able to lower/stop it completely when we can get hard floors sorted out.

I'll try and find some better treats, perhaps small-ish frozen ones or some we can keep in the fridge. He get's a fair amount of treats (we still like to give them when he goes for a wee or just to tempt him in from the garden!) so that may be a cause of it too :/ What treats do you have @Westie Mum and @ellenlouisepascoe ?

Is this the kind of HEPA filter cleaner?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/VonHaus-Upr...09&sr=1-3&keywords=hepa+filter+vacuum+cleaner

It seems rather cheap so I may be looking at the completely wrong thing!!


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I have been sticking to using fresh human grade foods as treats , ie a bit of chicken or a bit of sausage takes more time to prepare but Skyla did get hold of a bag of fish4dogs treats and spent the next day scratching her head off. 

I picked the dyson hoover in the end, everything else was far too confusing lol


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

Oscar started on two Apoquel a day, reduced to one a day before he was taken off it completely. They come in different sizes depending on weight.

Can't say if that Hoover will be any good suction wise as I've always had Dysons so anything in comparison always seems rubbish to me lol - but do check, I recently purchased a cordless dyson which was £400 and no hepa filter ! Check the Hoover you have now, it may already have one.

Treat wise we only use natural treats anyway - rabbit ears, lambs ears, fish skins etc. For "coming in from the garden without me having to call you more than once" treats we use dried chopped up venison - zooplus.co.uk have a fab selection on natural treats.

Not sure if @ellenlouisepascoe knows - I presume natural treats like most of the dead animal parts from zooplus would be fine/no storage mites ?

I did a ton of research when Oscar was itchy but when it was food allergy I stopped researching so never got as far as looking at treats, other than no biscuit type ones.


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

Westie Mum said:


> Treat wise we only use natural treats anyway - rabbit ears, lambs ears, fish skins etc. For "coming in from the garden without me having to call you more than once" treats we use dried chopped up venison - zooplus.co.uk have a fab selection on natural treats.
> 
> Not sure if @ellenlouisepascoe knows - I presume natural treats like most of the dead animal parts from zooplus would be fine/no storage mites ?





ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I have been sticking to using fresh human grade foods as treats , ie a bit of chicken or a bit of sausage takes more time to prepare but Skyla did get hold of a bag of fish4dogs treats and spent the next day scratching her head off.
> 
> I picked the dyson hoover in the end, everything else was far too confusing lol


Ahhhh maybe dried natural treats will be no good either then !


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I have been sticking to using fresh human grade foods as treats , ie a bit of chicken or a bit of sausage takes more time to prepare but Skyla did get hold of a bag of fish4dogs treats and spent the next day scratching her head off.
> 
> I picked the dyson hoover in the end, everything else was far too confusing lol


He loves cheese, and those horrible Mathison's sausages!! Although would that be any better, giving him human food!? He has got some freeze-dried Natures Menu treats which he goes crazy for.



Westie Mum said:


> Oscar started on two Apoquel a day, reduced to one a day before he was taken off it completely. They come in different sizes depending on weight.
> 
> Can't say if that Hoover will be any good suction wise as I've always had Dysons so anything in comparison always seems rubbish to me lol - but do check, I recently purchased a cordless dyson which was £400 and no hepa filter ! Check the Hoover you have now, it may already have one.
> 
> ...


I'll check my hoover I have, it says something about being a specific 'pet' hoover, so maybe it is! That £19.99 one has great reviews, but I can't imagine anything that price would be worthwhile at all.

I'm going to go on a treat hunt online now  I always thought it was more where you kept the treats, as in if they were in a container left out exposed to dust? His treats are always in a 'clip and lock' tuperware box so thought we would be safe!


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

SurfCFC said:


> I'm going to go on a treat hunt online now  I always thought it was more where you kept the treats, as in if they were in a container left out exposed to dust? His treats are always in a 'clip and lock' tuperware box so thought we would be safe!


My understanding is that it's more to do with how it's stored before it even get to you ! Kibble for example stored in big warehouse becomes infested as the mites travel/breed from bag to bag just in the warehouse.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Westie Mum said:


> My understanding is that it's more to do with how it's stored before it even get to you ! Kibble for example stored in big warehouse becomes infested as the mites travel/breed from bag to bag just in the warehouse.


Ah yes that makes sense. Well at least raw feeding eliminates that, but the natural treats on Zooplus look good, and I guess they would be stored in a different way to the dry kibble/treats?!

Looking into fish oil too, want to try him with something else. This looks good -

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/dog_health/skin_coat_supplements/other/514968

But there are so many! Also, would you suggest there is any meat I should stay away from with regards to feeding and treats, even though he's not allergic to any foods?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I avoid the raw treats from big companies, my thought process is they have been stores in the same warehouse as the feeds so there is a possibility they have them too. I have been looking into getting a dehydrator to make my own treats. 

We use the Nutrivet Wild Salmon Oil and the one from Pooch and Mutt


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I avoid the raw treats from big companies, my thought process is they have been stores in the same warehouse as the feeds so there is a possibility they have them too. I have been looking into getting a dehydrator to make my own treats.
> 
> We use the Nutrivet Wild Salmon Oil and the one from Pooch and Mutt


Ah great, I'll get that one too then  This is a bit of a strange one with the treats  I pray to God my next dog doesn't have skin issues


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I never thought I'd have one with skin problems  Sibe's aren't normally bad with things like this but the vet blamed the taste of the wild food for setting it off. She said it was probably infested from sitting on a ship for months coming over here from the US, then sat in a huge storage warehouse for god knows how long.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I never thought I'd have one with skin problems  Sibe's aren't normally bad with things like this but the vet blamed the taste of the wild food for setting it off. She said it was probably infested from sitting on a ship for months coming over here from the US, then sat in a huge storage warehouse for god knows how long.


That's sad that happened  You'd have thought once you stopped feeding it the issues would go away? I know now since having a Boston Terrier they are prone to having skin issues, but then you just don't know, it can happen to any dog I guess.

Anyone heard of The Innocent Hound treats? They look quite good.


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

Hard to say about treats tbh. I'd say stick to as natural as possible and no grains or biscuit type. I'll see if I can find any info. 

We are using the Nutrivet salmon oil at the moment because we ran out of the fishermans daughter sal on oil we brought at Crufts. Have also used fish4dogs send others before but prefer pump bottles as less mess. 

Westie's are renown for skin issues, so I've always been careful. We are lucky 
Oscars so far seems to only be food and our other Westie, touch wood, has great skin.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

I'm going to stick with the fish treats, they seem the most unlikely to cause issues! He does like the Lily's Kitchen fish sticks, we need to break them up because if we give him a whole he just buries it in the garden...!


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

I would have though so, but then @ellenlouisepascoe said her Skyla had an issue with those.

Doesn't seem to be any definite answers when you read online, other than cut them out completely or grain free.

The innocent hound sausages are great. Oscar had the venison ones as part of his elimination diet. They are just expensive when you have 3 dogs!


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I have been looking into getting a dehydrator to make my own treats.


Which one are you looking at @ellenlouisepascoe ? I've looked before but then worried I'll use it for a few weeks and then it will get chucked in the back of the cupboard .... I'm known to do that :Shamefullyembarrased


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Westie Mum said:


> I would have though so, but then @ellenlouisepascoe said her Skyla had an issue with those.
> 
> Doesn't seem to be any definite answers when you read online, other than cut them out completely or grain free.
> 
> The innocent hound sausages are great. Oscar had the venison ones as part of his elimination diet. They are just expensive when you have 3 dogs!


Yeah I bet! Ok I'll give them a go then, I'm pretty sure our local pet shop has them in stock - they tend to have the healthier type treats as opposed to Pet's at Home type stores.


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

SurfCFC said:


> Yeah I bet! Ok I'll give them a go then, I'm pretty sure our local pet shop has them in stock - they tend to have the healthier type treats as opposed to Pet's at Home type stores.


I would think meat sausages would be a better option that biscuit type treats. It makes sense - but just seems to be no info out there so hard to say for sure .... But like a lot of things, it's trial and error.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Allergies are such a bummer. 

With triggers like house dust mites, complete allergen avoidance is not an option and while you can take measures to reduce exposure, you're never going to prevent contact with house dust mites completely.

The ideal treatment for these allergies is immunotherapy, to alter the body's way of responding to the allergen and normalise the immune response. Sadly, in Cooper's case, this doesn't seem to have worked.

This leaves you with only one option as I see it: control the symptoms.

To reduce itching, the main options are of course steroids, Atopica and Apoquel. Other treatments such as anti-histamines, Chinese herbs, omega-3 oils etc can help, but IME they rarely control the symptoms on their own. You're already aware of the pros and cons of steroids, Atopica and Apoquel - so in some ways it's choosing the least of three evils, or at least finding the one that is best for you and Cooper.

Have you tried Cortavance? It doesn't work in every case, but it's a spray-on steroid solution that avoids the side effects of giving tablets.

I guess a hugely important (and unfortunately sometimes overlooked) thing to consider in chronic allergy cases is the involvement, if any, of infections. Bacteria and yeasts are normally present on the skin, but if the skin is inflamed and its barriers compromised then these microorganisms can easily invade and cause infection.

Skin infections are itchy in their own right and make allergic dogs feel ten times worse. It's vital to identify, manage and prevent these infections in order to keep the skin healthy and comfortable. Some of the tests listed by the dermatologist in his email will look for signs of bacterial/yeast infection, but your own vet can carry out the same tests.

Remember you can't test for infection once at the start of the problem and then forget about it: monitoring for it is an ongoing process and these tests usually need to be repeated if there are signs compatible with infection.

While most of the tests the dermatologist carries out can be performed equally well by your usual vet, I think a dermatologist's experience and knowledge can often help 'bring everything together' and equip you with a specific plan that might help make Cooper's condition more manageable for you. They will also be even more experienced with the various medications available and best placed to help you make a decision.

So, in short, I think seeing a dermatologist could be helpful to rule out any complicating factors in Cooper's skin allergy and to help you formulate a plan. However, I don't think leaving that avenue for now and pursuing the other options with your own vet is wrong. They can review some skin samples for infection and parasites if it's not been done very recently, and I'm sure they can help you choose a treatment protocol.

Best of luck whatever you decide.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks so much for your reply @Ceiling Kitty, it's given me something to think about. I'm going to contact my insurance company to see if they cover allergy testing, most likely not, but it's worth checking. I would like to do it (apart from Cooper having to go through more tests and being shaved!) because as you say, it is an in depth process which will bring up anything that he has, allergies and any infections, so I can definitely see the benefits from doing this.

I haven't tried or even heard of Cortavance so I'm going to look into that now, anything that isn't pills is worth a look.

There is only the one option of controlling it, and we just have to figure out the best way of doing that and doing the best thing for Cooper. Failing going down the dermatologist route, I will take to my vet about skin scrapes but again, I am dubious he would say it is worthwhile as we already know his allergy? I'll have to speak to him about all of this on Monday I think before settling for the Apoquel, it's all so confusing to know what to do for the best.

Thanks again everyone for your help! I'll let you know how we get on


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

So Cooper has now been on Apoquel for 2 weeks and so far he has not shown any adverse symptoms at all, finger's crossed. However they are not working anywhere near as well as steroids and he still itches quite a bit, whereas on steroids his itching was non-existent. We have a vets appointment tomorrow so I will of course let him know. 

However Cooper's hair loss has got a lot worse over the last couple of months (during which time he has been on both steroids and Apoquel, separately) and I've been struggling to get to the bottom of it. It isn't in places where he itches necessarily, but in patches all over - around his eyes, his head, belly, the inside and now the outside of his legs. It's quite worrying and I've been trying to figure out why - do you think he may have (and have had all this time) some type of mange?! The symptoms for both demodectic and sarcoptic mange do ring true with what's happening with Cooper so I think I will ask the vet to carry out a skin scrape to see. Or am I being totally paranoid and over-Googling symptoms!? :Arghh


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

@SurfCFC the vet believed Skyla had demodex however once tested it came back negative. 
Skyla's allergies are to dust and storage mites , the storage mites jump up and bite her face when she put her head into infested food and she lost hair around her mouth an eyes, she will also scratch her legs and back end and chews under her chest when she is suffering.

I can't remember if I shared this photo in this thread and it's too difficult to go back on my phone but the top two pics were Skyla when she was at her worst. The bottom two are now. Apoquel comes in different strengths and the ones Skyla were first put on were too weak. Her dose was upped when we went back to the vets ( I think she gets the 16mg ones )


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks @ellenlouisepascoe , Skyla's thin hair in those photos do remind me of Cooper's, but as he is quite short haired anyway it looks really bad! I've attached a photo which shows the baldness around his eyes and his head, and you can see his pink belly which is pretty bare now too. I've never noticed anything particularly setting Cooper off, like you said with Skyla and the storage mites.

I think I will still ask the vet about it, and perhaps ask him to do a skin scrape - I'm guessing they will do one on request? I don't even know how much they cost to have done?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SurfCFC said:


> Thanks @ellenlouisepascoe , Skyla's thin hair in those photos do remind me of Cooper's, but as he is quite short haired anyway it looks really bad! I've attached a photo which shows the baldness around his eyes and his head, and you can see his pink belly which is pretty bare now too. I've never noticed anything particularly setting Cooper off, like you said with Skyla and the storage mites.
> 
> I think I will still ask the vet about it, and perhaps ask him to do a skin scrape - I'm guessing they will do one on request? I don't even know how much they cost to have done?
> 
> View attachment 266798


I think I paid about £90 for Skyla's scrape ( I could be wrong though ) it is quite unpleasant as they have to get quite deep down into the dermis however I got my results instantly


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks, that's really helpful. I would like to know so even though it's not nice I think I'll try it. I just have a feeling, and in a way I hope I'm right because at least then we can start to treat it. I'll let you know how it goes, or if I'm just overthinking it and being totally paranoid!!


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

So Cooper had the skin scrape this morning (only £22 so pretty good!) and the vet just called to say he doesn't have either demodectic or sarcoptic mange from what they could tell from the scrape. Which is good and bad, because at least if it was that then we could treat it. So just booked in another appointment for 3 weeks for the first blood test after starting the Apoquel. He reckons because Cooper was on steroids for near enough a year this is why he is having some hair loss, so once they are out of his system and the 'new hair cycle' (?) comes along he should get a little better. Will have to just wait and see I guess!


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SurfCFC said:


> So Cooper had the skin scrape this morning (only £22 so pretty good!) and the vet just called to say he doesn't have either demodectic or sarcoptic mange from what they could tell from the scrape. Which is good and bad, because at least if it was that then we could treat it. So just booked in another appointment for 3 weeks for the first blood test after starting the Apoquel. He reckons because Cooper was on steroids for near enough a year this is why he is having some hair loss, so once they are out of his system and the 'new hair cycle' (?) comes along he should get a little better. Will have to just wait and see I guess!


You end up going round in circles don't you. I remember on the way to Skyla being diagnosed I clung to every illness I researched thinking " Oh it's definitely that!" only for the tests to come back negative. I was convinced she had ZRD ( Zinc Reactive Dermatitis ) which is very common in northern breeds so when he tests came back fine I was devastated because I felt like we had taken one step forward and 5 back. Have you had allergy testing done? Sorry if you've already answered this my mind gets mixed up with the amount of owners I speak too battling allergies.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> You end up going round in circles don't you. I remember on the way to Skyla being diagnosed I clung to every illness I researched thinking " Oh it's definitely that!" only for the tests to come back negative. I was convinced she had ZRD ( Zinc Reactive Dermatitis ) which is very common in northern breeds so when he tests came back fine I was devastated because I felt like we had taken one step forward and 5 back. Have you had allergy testing done? Sorry if you've already answered this my mind gets mixed up with the amount of owners I speak too battling allergies.


I know, you're so right! I don't _want_ him to have anything wrong with him, but when things clearly aren't right then you want a diagnosis. We have had allergy testing done, blood tests, and they just came back as being positive for dust mites primarily, and storage mites. Whilst I know he has these allergies there is something just telling me there's something else up too! Perhaps it is just the steroids that have had an effect on him and we need to wait a couple of months for him to bounce back from that.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Bless him, it's so awful and Skyla is far from being under control but everything I can try for the allergies I will try. If you go through my previous threads you will see all the recommendations from other members and I've got pretty much all of them lol!

Skyla's new dust mite free vetbed arrived today too :Hilarious


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

I have seen those beds! They look great, but Cooper is prone to chew on new things, which is why he has a pillow inside a plastic bed now as he destroyed all the lovely beds we bought him! We've tried the majority of products too and none seem to work. It's so frustrating! At least on steroids he was 100% inch free.

I know we could be doing more for his allergies, he sleeps in our bed and whilst we have the anti-allergy mattress protector and pillow cases it's probably not ideal. He's way more itchy on Apoquel than he was on steroids but the vet said that's normal, it just takes a few weeks/months for them to properly kick in.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Immunotherapy?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Immunotherapy?


ETA: sorry, got confused, forgotten he'd already had that.

Did you try the Cortavance?


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> ETA: sorry, got confused, forgotten he'd already had that.
> 
> Did you try the Cortavance?


Yep immunotherapy did nothing whatsoever unfortunately.

I remember you mentioning Cortavance and I did look into it, I think it would be great but the vet said to not use any steroids whilst on Apoquel, at least just to see if it is working. I know the spray isn't quite the same as the tablets so would this be ok to try, do you think?

EDIT: plus I am worried that the steroids made him lose hair, so I would be a little worried about using it directly on the skin if it would make the hair loss worse?


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

my dog has been on atopica for about 4 years now,he s allergice to grass and dust mites primarily.
i havent really noticed any sde effects,other than struggle with weight,although,that proabably has alot to do with my parents over feeding him!!!
i did ask my vet about apoquel,but as he`s not had an issue on atopica,we decided it wasnt a good idea,
its worked wonders for him


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> my dog has been on atopica for about 4 years now,he s allergice to grass and dust mites primarily.
> i havent really noticed any sde effects,other than struggle with weight,although,that proabably has alot to do with my parents over feeding him!!!
> i did ask my vet about apoquel,but as he`s not had an issue on atopica,we decided it wasnt a good idea,
> its worked wonders for him


It's a nightmare isn't it 

If Atopica is working then I definitely wouldn't change it, I'm still not too convinced by Apoquel as now that he only has one a day he is super itchy again. I've been told it will take a while to get into his system but other people say it works instantly and stops itching 100%  Does Atopica take a while to work or is that pretty instant?

cooper seems to be struggling with weight the other way, doesn't put a single pound on! Vet said he's in perfect shape though so not too worried about that.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

It took about a month to kick in.he was on a long course of antibiotics during this time to control the infections and steroids.
He hasn't had a break out in the whole time he has been on atopica.
He gets the occasional crust.but nothing like he used to


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

We may try that if Apoquel doesn't work but there are lots of stories of people with positive experiences so fingers crossed.


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## Lucy_H (Apr 10, 2016)

Hi, I've just signed up to this forum as I have been googling apoquel and your thread came up. I was reading through and your dogs suffers exactly the same allergies as mine. 

Teddy is a shih-tzu cross poodle who just turned two. I noticed he was itchy as a puppy, it started to get worse and he was visibly loosing hair because of the itching. I took him to the vets who said he had the equivalent of teenage acne, I left it for a while but wasn't satisfied as nothing I did helped. They then said it will be a wheat allergy, try cutting that out of his diet. It carried on, ending up in severe skin infections, ear infections, hot spots and baldness. I paid for the tests (£320) and it came back with dust and storage mite allergies. We tried medicated food and anything else the bet could think offbeat could make money out of me, synical I know. I just wanted him to feel better so put him on apoquel, I actually nearly cried the first day as it was instant, he was back to playing and not say itching on the field. 

However, a year on and his ear infections are back, I can't keep the weight on him (he's fed natures menu raw) when the vet has previously put him on a diet as he was a little chunk and his nipples are starting to enlarge. I remember reading in the instructions long term use can cause mammory tumours so am very nervous about this. 

I'm taking him back to the vets next week to review. I want to take him off the tablets as I don't think the risks outweigh the benefits any more. It doesn't seem to be as affective as it once was. 

I've changed my flooring to laminate, have a dehumidifier, have enough pet bedding that rotates and is hung out regularly. I myself have anti allergy bedding to help prevent dust mites in the house. He only has natural treats which are all stored separately in different bags and has a bandana which specifies 'no treats' when out on walks, I find people love to dish treats out and felt mean for saying no all the time, this says it for me.

A very lengthy post but I wanted to share my experience and see if it helped you. It's sooooo frustrating not being able to help them. What did you decide in the end?


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Lucy_H said:


> Hi, I've just signed up to this forum as I have been googling apoquel and your thread came up. I was reading through and your dogs suffers exactly the same allergies as mine.
> 
> Teddy is a shih-tzu cross poodle who just turned two. I noticed he was itchy as a puppy, it started to get worse and he was visibly loosing hair because of the itching. I took him to the vets who said he had the equivalent of teenage acne, I left it for a while but wasn't satisfied as nothing I did helped. They then said it will be a wheat allergy, try cutting that out of his diet. It carried on, ending up in severe skin infections, ear infections, hot spots and baldness. I paid for the tests (£320) and it came back with dust and storage mite allergies. We tried medicated food and anything else the bet could think offbeat could make money out of me, synical I know. I just wanted him to feel better so put him on apoquel, I actually nearly cried the first day as it was instant, he was back to playing and not say itching on the field.
> 
> ...


Hi Lucy  It's good to hear and chat to people going through the same things and share experiences, it's just horrible isn't it seeing them like that 

It really sounds like you've done a lot to help with his allergies, and if you read back through a few posts from people on this thread and others there are some really good ideas, for example Bio Life do a range of products to put in with your washing and a household spray, anti-allergy mattress/pillow protectors. Unfortunately this didn't really seem to have an effect on Cooper but other people have said very good things about it so perhaps worth a try.

I hope it all goes well at the vets, perhaps you can look into Atopica? Have you tried immunotherapy? We did, and were really hopeful but after 9/10 months of having the injections there was no change.

If you do decide to take Teddy off the Apoquel what would you be looking at putting him on to help with the itching? I had so many reservations about it after reading people's comments - they generally started off well and then their dogs became ill and as you say, it can be a catalyst for tumours. I decided in the end that we would give it a go - I would rather Cooper have 5 years of being itch-free and a good quality of life rather than being miserable for 10+ years. So far so good, no side effects at all but after dropping him down to one per day he has gone back to being super itchy again. He was on steroids for about a year and these worked so well he was completely itch fee, but they have their problems as well. In all honestly, I think that anything we do is going to have it's problems and side effects, but at the end of the day you just want a good quality of life for your dog and if that means potentially causing problems in other areas is perhaps just something we will have to live with.

You mention about weight loss though, which is something I have been worried about with Cooper. He has always been trim and quite lean but just cannot put any weight on! The vet said his weight looks perfect and no problems so we will keep an eye on this.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

One of my dogs has what appears to be seasonal allergies, and they can get quite bad if I dont get on top of the scratching straight away. This time last year he had quite a bad skin infection and was covered in sores. He has started up again this last few weeks and I didnt seem to be able to sort it out so I took him to the vets 2 days ago in an effort to nip it in the bud before it got out of hand again. He gave us Apoquel and after only 2 tablets his scratching is now non-existent and even if I try and elicit a mad scratching response by touching his itchy bits, I get nothing. I cant believe how quickly it has worked which i'm thankful for because he was scratching all night and not getting any sleep which made him very lethargic throughout the day and since we are on holiday next week I needed him in decent health.

We will only be using the Apoquel short term but I really cant believe how quickly he has responded.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> One of my dogs has what appears to be seasonal allergies, and they can get quite bad if I dont get on top of the scratching straight away. This time last year he had quite a bad skin infection and was covered in sores. He has started up again this last few weeks and I didnt seem to be able to sort it out so I took him to the vets 2 days ago in an effort to nip it in the bud before it got out of hand again. He gave us Apoquel and after only 2 tablets his scratching is now non-existent and even if I try and elicit a mad scratching response by touching his itchy bits, I get nothing. I cant believe how quickly it has worked which i'm thankful for because he was scratching all night and not getting any sleep which made him very lethargic throughout the day and since we are on holiday next week I needed him in decent health.
> 
> We will only be using the Apoquel short term but I really cant believe how quickly he has responded.


That's great to hear how well he has done on Apoquel! Do you know exactly what he is allergic to? Also have you tried things like Benadryl or Piriton? We tried most things before we went onto Apoquel but if he is only itchy for a short time of the year then hopefully you won't need him on it for very long.

@Lucy_H How is your little one getting on now? Has he been back to the vets yet about the side effects he's experiencing?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

No, I don't know what he is allergic to, the vet said tree pollen is often a cause at this time of year but I strongly believe its something to do with vegetation and plants. As far as antihistamines go, I don't give him them as he is epileptic and antihistamines are thought to possibly elicit a seizure in some instances.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> No, I don't know what he is allergic to, the vet said tree pollen is often a cause at this time of year but I strongly believe its something to do with vegetation and plants. As far as antihistamines go, I don't give him them as he is epileptic and antihistamines are thought to possibly elicit a seizure in some instances.


The antihistamines did nothing for Cooper, I think you're lucky if they do actually work!

It may be worth getting him allergy tested as there may be a better way forward than Apoquel, but it is expensive. It was in excess of £300 for Cooper's blood tests, and then add on the immunotherapy cost, and it soon adds up!


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## jazzypad1 (Oct 31, 2011)

An interesting article from Dogs Naturally magazine which gives cause for concern re the use of Apoquel in the treatment of allergies in dogshttp://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.co...d8c4089b7d7fbb76b9e8556c5187d434f9b03d798eb7e


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I only have a short supply of Apoquel, I certainly won't be keeping my dog on it, it's purely to get him through this phase.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

jazzypad1 said:


> An interesting article from Dogs Naturally magazine which gives cause for concern re the use of Apoquel in the treatment of allergies in dogshttp://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.co...d8c4089b7d7fbb76b9e8556c5187d434f9b03d798eb7e


i read this earlier,i personally think its scaremongering.
if a person only beleives in natural treatment,then they are always going to be against drugs.
same as those against nuetering or vaccination.

I tried everything with fudge,change of diet,immunotherapy,and whilst i know longterm the atopica he is on,will cause problems,
i cannot go back to him being like this.his whole body was like this before atopica.
He was in so much pain and itching all the time,till he bled.
Hes nearly 11 now,this photo,was just before allergy testing and atopica,4 years ago.


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

It would be lovely not to have give my dog at drugs, and believe me we have tried it all. Steroids were the only thing stopping him from itching, but we knew they weren't good for him in the long term so we then tried Apoquel. We know it will have its side effects but what else can we do? It's unfortunate he has to have them and it may mean his life span is shortened. But at least while he is here he isn't itchy and he is happy. If Apoquel stops working then it'll be steroids I guess as we've run out of options. 

You're very lucky you don't have to keep your dog on it Leanne  hopefully they may come up with another drug in a few years that works just as well but has little side effects.


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