# Kennel Club Amended Colour For Cocker Spaniels



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

The Kennel Club have recently amended their colours for registering cocker spaniel puppies and have removed the popular Chocolate and Tan colouring from their approved list of colours. Are any other Cocker Spaniel Breeders aware of this? I have email the Kennel Club and have been told that the colours can be amended but have to be done via the Breed council. I have emailed the Breed Council but as yet have not had a reply. Are there any other breeders out there that are aware of this problem?


----------



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Why? Chocolate and Tan is quite popular. Are they just going to remove it and class those dogs as Solid Chocolate? What about Chocolate Roan & Tan?


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Im not a Cocker person tho did have a Choc/tan one, cant see why they have done this.


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

Chocolate Roan and Tan is still there. The colours now listed are

Black, Black & tan, Black & White, Black& White Roan, Black & White Ticked, Black White & Tn, Blue Roan, Blue Roan & Tan, Brown, Brown & White, Chocolate, Chocolate & White, Chocolate Roan, Chocolate Roan & Tan, Chocolate Tan & White, Chocolate White & Tan, Gold, Gold & White, Golden, Lemon, Lemon & White, Lemon Roan, Liver, Liver & White, Liver Roan, Orange & White, Orange Roan, Red, Sable and Tricolour

In other words everthing else but Chocolate and tan. I have a chocolate and tan bitch who produces pure chocolate and tan puppies without any white. How am I supposed to register her pups. We all need to lobby the breed council about this one. There will be an outcry.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Is this a choc/tan?this was the pup I had.


----------



## brackensmom (Jun 15, 2009)

aww how lovely, but going from the colours permitted he would of been ok as had white,


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

Yes that is Chocolate and tan and should be on the pedigree papers as a pure chocolate and tan - not chocolate tan and white. The white on the chest refers to a white blaze which is permitted in a solid colour. You can check on your paperwork. If you already have a dog that is not the worry - the worry is for any cocker breeders out there who are breeeding Chocolate and tans who can no longer register the colour.


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

They havent changed it on the web site yet UK kennel club that is

Colour
Various. In self colours no white allowed except on chest.

that was this morning

nor on the main club site which was updated 1/2/10

http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/colours.htm


----------



## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

Umm so Kathy will be quite a worry if Halle has chocolate Tan. I really hope they get things sorted


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

Halle has been mated with Monti who is chocolate roan and tan so she could well have a chocolate and tan this time but it is my Tosca that is Chocolate and Tan. 

I pulled the list I printed off the Kennel club sight 3 days ago so unless they have changed it again in the last 2 days since I spoke to the Breed council chocolate and tan was missing. A fellow breeder has tried to register chocolate and tan in the last week and had the registration refused due to the colour no longer being recognised. When I spoke to the breed council I was informed that in actual fact Chocolate and Tan should be 'Liver and Tan' and should be there they were surprised it wasn't. I will go back and check now.
Halle's pups are due 20th March.


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

I am sorry but the moderator information is incorrect.
Re the Kennel Club follow the links

Kennel Club
I am a breeder
Breed information centre
Spaniel Cocker
Accepted registration colours

Reading down the list chocolate and tan for the cocker spaniel is definitely not there I have now checked and double checked. This is as of the current date and time.


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

jaffa said:


> Halle has been mated with Monti who is chocolate roan and tan so she could well have a chocolate and tan this time but it is my Tosca that is Chocolate and Tan.
> 
> I pulled the list I printed off the Kennel club sight 3 days ago so unless they have changed it again in the last 2 days since I spoke to the Breed council chocolate and tan was missing. A fellow breeder has tried to register chocolate and tan in the last week and had the registration refused due to the colour no longer being recognised. When I spoke to the breed council I was informed that in actual fact Chocolate and Tan should be 'Liver and Tan' and should be there they were surprised it wasn't. I will go back and check now.
> Halle's pups are due 20th March.


liver and tan is there on the breed site


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

jaffa said:


> I am sorry but the moderator information is incorrect.
> Re the Kennel Club follow the links
> 
> Kennel Club
> ...


this is where I got my info from

Spaniel (Cocker) Breed Standard - The Kennel Club


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

Yes the Cocker club have the colour listed which is the point I brought up to the kennel club but the kennel club have gone ahead and removed the colour themselves.

If the kennel club do not have the colour as one of their 'accepted list of registered colours' a puppy who is chocolate and tan cannot be registered - which is my point. Once more breeders and show people come to realise this there will be a huge outcry - I am just tryin to raise awareness now. When I contacted the Cocker Club they weren't even aware that the Kennel club had omitted chocolate and tan - but it has to come from the breed council to get it changed. This is just a crazy situation.


----------



## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

jaffa said:


> Chocolate Roan and Tan is still there. The colours now listed are
> 
> Black, Black & tan, Black & White, Black& White Roan, Black & White Ticked, Black White & Tn, Blue Roan, Blue Roan & Tan, Brown, Brown & White, Chocolate, Chocolate & White, Chocolate Roan, Chocolate Roan & Tan, Chocolate Tan & White, Chocolate White & Tan, Gold, Gold & White, Golden, Lemon, Lemon & White, Lemon Roan, Liver, Liver & White, Liver Roan, Orange & White, Orange Roan, Red, Sable and Tricolour
> 
> In other words everthing else but Chocolate and tan. I have a chocolate and tan bitch who produces pure chocolate and tan puppies without any white. How am I supposed to register her pups. We all need to lobby the breed council about this one. There will be an outcry.


There are a few incorrect colours there anyway, this kind of thing really annoys me :.


----------



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Cay said:


> There are a few incorrect colours there anyway, this kind of thing really annoys me :.


i agree, what's the difference between chocolate tan & white and chocolate white & tan?  brown, chocolate and liver are all exactly the same colour, so why not just have one term for the same colour? also black & white ticked is allowed, but not liver/brown/chocolate & white ticked?


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i agree, what's the difference between chocolate tan & white and chocolate white & tan?  brown, chocolate and liver are all exactly the same colour, so why not just have one term for the same colour? also black & white ticked is allowed, but not liver/brown/chocolate & white ticked?


Cocker Spaniel breeders have such odd color terminology. Sigh. I speak regularly with a Cocker breeder on line about her dogs, and I still get completely confused at times.

From my understanding, chocolate/tan and white means a mostly chocolate and tan dog with a splash of white (less than 20% I think). Chocolate/white and tan means a parti colored dog (more than 50% white) with chocolate and tan coloring in the spots (basically what Cavalier and Collie breeders call a tricolor).

As parti white comes from a recessive pairing of genes at the white spotting locus, the breeders have to give these colors different names so as to differentiate between parti and solid coloring on that loci.

CC


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

The colour that comes first is the dominant colour of the dog. I.e if it is Chocolate, white and tan then mostly dog is chocolate with larger white patches and tan is on the muzzle - the eyebrows and the cheeks. A solide chocolate and tan dog is allowed (like any solid colour) to have a white blaze on the chest only.

The point on this is really not what colour is what but the fact that the Kennel club have changed the colours that breeders can register their puppies in without reference to the breed council. The did this around Christmastime. They have advised a friend of mine to register her chocolate and tan puppies as solid chocolate which surely is mis-representation as they will have to be re-registered (hopefully when) the colour is re-instated. The Breed Council are now aware of this problem as they still have the colour registered and as far as they are concerned it is a standard colour. From my recent conversations with some folk in the cocker club there are some ongoing conversations with the kennel club about this now so .....fingers crossed.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

jaffa said:


> They have advised a friend of mine to register her chocolate and tan puppies as solid chocolate which surely is mis-representation as they will have to be re-registered (hopefully when) the colour is re-instated. The Breed Council are now aware of this problem as they still have the colour registered and as far as they are concerned it is a standard colour. From my recent conversations with some folk in the cocker club there are some ongoing conversations with the kennel club about this now so .....fingers crossed.


It is also sheer stupidity as chocolate is caused by a very different gene set than chocolate and tan, with only the "b/b" locus being the same. Chocolate is a dilution of a black dog, which will have a dominant K allele on the blac*K* locus. Chocolate and tan is a dilution of a black/tan dog, which has the two most recessive k'y'/k'y' alleles on the blac*K* locus, and the black/tan color distribution is then set up through the *A*gouti locus (black/tan can be thought of as a recessive variant of wild pattern, or sable). It will make it impossible for breeders to look behind in a pedigree and have any idea of what their pups might carry recessively on the color loci.

CC


----------



## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

The Kennel Club


----------



## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

This is all the breed standard says about colour
*Colour
Various. In self colours no white allowed except on chest.*

Looking at that you would think any colour would allowed to be registered as it is a bit vague

Mind you it also says coat not too profuse - so the majority of dogs in the show ring should be marked down for excess coat!


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

I totally agree with Comfortcreature. Over the past few days I have discovered that the breed council are now fully aware of the situation re the chocolate and tan situation and the discrepancy between their colourings and the registered list of colours the kennel club are permitting and are 'in discussions'. It has also brought up discussions re the variation in the colouring of sables.

My chocolate and tan bitch has now come into season and I really don't know what to do with her this time. Do I get her mated? Do I leave her this time and wait and see what happens? As she produces pure chocolate and tans I will have problems registering them. What would prospective owner think if you advertise puppies as chocolate and tan and then tell them 'well actually their pedigree paperwork says they are......'

Suggestions please ... any suggestions of a colour I could mate her with her mum is black. I mated her last time with a chocolate.


----------



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

jaffa said:


> I totally agree with Comfortcreature. Over the past few days I have discovered that the breed council are now fully aware of the situation re the chocolate and tan situation and the discrepancy between their colourings and the registered list of colours the kennel club are permitting and are 'in discussions'. It has also brought up discussions re the variation in the colouring of sables.
> 
> My chocolate and tan bitch has now come into season and I really don't know what to do with her this time. Do I get her mated? Do I leave her this time and wait and see what happens? As she produces pure chocolate and tans I will have problems registering them. What would prospective owner think if you advertise puppies as chocolate and tan and then tell them 'well actually their pedigree paperwork says they are......'
> 
> Suggestions please ... any suggestions of a colour I could mate her with her mum is black. I mated her last time with a chocolate.


what about a parti colour, or a roan? Roan is dominant, so you could mate her with a chocolate roan, and you'll get some chocolate roan and tans, and some chocolate roans. or maybe a blue roan, and you'll get a few blue roans in the litter too.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

jaffa said:


> My chocolate and tan bitch has now come into season and I really don't know what to do with her this time. Do I get her mated? Do I leave her this time and wait and see what happens? *As she produces pure chocolate and tans I will have problems registering them*. What would prospective owner think if you advertise puppies as chocolate and tan and then tell them 'well actually their pedigree paperwork says they are......'
> 
> Suggestions please ... any suggestions of a colour I could mate her with her mum is black. I mated her last time with a chocolate.


I am understanding from your post that your bitch is pure for chocolate and tan. What this means is that she is a't'/a't' on the *A*gouti locus. This is recessive to black (or its diluted form which is chocolate) and as well it is recessive to sable in your breed. Chocolate and tan is also recessive to black/tan in your breed - it is actually just one 'B' allele different.

Your bitch is b/b on the *B*rown recessive (B) locus. A black/tan cocker is the same as her on the K and A loci, but is B/b on that B locus.

You do have many options for which to mate your bitch, from which you will most like not get just chocolate and tan pups. I would think that the easiest would be to breed away from the recessive 'chocolate - b' allele. It just takes one dominant 'B' in the pair that the pups get in order for them to retain black in the leathers and the fur, and therefore be registerable as black/tans.

As black/tan is still in the color listing, I would suggest that any dog with black leather pigmentation (black, black/tan, red, gold, orange, lemon, light cream or any of the parti/roan versions of these colors) that does not carry a recessive 'b' brown allele (avoid dogs with chocolate, brown or liver colors in their background pedigree) would be your safest bet, as then you are almost guaranteed the pups will come out with black pigmentation and just carry the chocolate - they will all be 'B/b' on the *B*rown locus.

If chocolate and tan is a color you love, and you'd like to keep it through this mess, if you breed to a black/tan dog that does not carry a 'b' brown allele, then all your pups will be black/tan, and it is a guarantee they will carry that 'b' allele (gifted from your bitch). Next generation, if the color mess has been sorted, breed any of those black/tan pups to a chocolate and tan mate and odds are half the pups will be chocolate and tan (the other half will be the dominant black/tan).

The other option, if you want to keep the chocolate, is to breed to a solid chocolate dog, but it would be hard to ensure that dog does not carry chocolate and tan. If I read correctly, you tried this and got all chocolate/tan pups last time - which means the chocolate dog you bred to carried chocolate/tan and or red-buff-cream 'e', which is also recessive in single allele form, and the odds worked out that ALL the pups got the recessive a't' allele from both him AND from your dam. By odds you should have gotten 50% solid chocolates in that litter . . . but then that's how odds go sometimes.

I hope that was clearer than mud.:huh:

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogbrown.html

--------------------
Ooops. Just saw this



SEVEN_PETS said:


> what about a parti colour, or a roan? Roan is dominant, so you could mate her with a chocolate roan, and you'll get some chocolate roan and tans, and some chocolate roans. or maybe a blue roan, and you'll get a few blue roans in the litter too.


Although roan is dominant on a parti colored dog, roan is simply excess ticking on the white. Both parti (and therefore roan) are recessive to a solidly colored dog (no or just a little white). As your dog is solidly colored, then breeding to a chocolate colored parti or roan would not produce that recessive parti color (with or without roaning) on the pups (unless your girl carries parti - in which case odds are only half will be parti or roan and the rest will be solid chocolate and tan - which doesn't help too much.)


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Whilst I dont breed or show. I find it absolutely ridiculous (sp) that KC or Breed club can just change the colours of dogs with a click of the fingers. :nonod: Has there been any given reason for this.


----------



## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

jaffa said:


> I totally agree with Comfortcreature. Over the past few days I have discovered that the breed council are now fully aware of the situation re the chocolate and tan situation and the discrepancy between their colourings and the registered list of colours the kennel club are permitting and are 'in discussions'. It has also brought up discussions re the variation in the colouring of sables.
> 
> My chocolate and tan bitch has now come into season and I really don't know what to do with her this time. Do I get her mated? Do I leave her this time and wait and see what happens? As she produces pure chocolate and tans I will have problems registering them. What would prospective owner think if you advertise puppies as chocolate and tan and then tell them 'well actually their pedigree paperwork says they are......'
> 
> Suggestions please ... any suggestions of a colour I could mate her with her mum is black. I mated her last time with a chocolate.


Has your girl been health tested, if not you should either use a dog who is PRA and FN clear or wait till next time and get her tested in the meantime .


----------



## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I am understanding from your post that your bitch is pure for chocolate and tan. What this means is that she is a't'/a't' on the *A*gouti locus. This is recessive to black (or its diluted form which is chocolate) and as well it is recessive to sable in your breed. Chocolate and tan is also recessive to black/tan in your breed - it is actually just one 'B' allele different.
> 
> Your bitch is b/b on the *B*rown recessive (B) locus. A black/tan cocker is the same as her on the K and A loci, but is B/b on that B locus.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Rep for you xx


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Spaniel mad said:


> Excellent post. Rep for you xx


Thanks - always willing to blather on about coat color genetics!

CC


----------



## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> Thanks - always willing to blather on about coat color genetics!
> 
> CC


As a cocker owner myself its very good stuff to read x


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

Thank you Comfortcreature for all that excellent advice. I have just started reading up on all the genetics and find it all really facinating. I do fancy the idea of orange roans and would like one as I don't have one. The only other thing that is putting me in doubt of mating my chocolate and tan this time is that my chocolate is due in 2 weeks and the timing for me is just not quite right. I only have a couple of litters a year as cockers are babies and live inside with me. I don't really want to have one litter straight on top of another one. Whichever way I decide it will be the wrong decision and I will wish I did the other. I have been offered a blue roan and a sable mate by a local colleague.

I haven't heard any more news on the Choc and tan front but am going to Crufts on Sunday so will try and go and talk to the breed council and cocker club while I am there.
Thank you to all of you for your advice - we need to keep pushing the kennel club and the breed council on the colour front.


----------



## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

jaffa said:


> Thank you Comfortcreature for all that excellent advice. I have just started reading up on all the genetics and find it all really facinating. I do fancy the idea of orange roans and would like one as I don't have one. The only other thing that is putting me in doubt of mating my chocolate and tan this time is that my chocolate is due in 2 weeks and the timing for me is just not quite right. I only have a couple of litters a year as cockers are babies and live inside with me. I don't really want to have one litter straight on top of another one. Whichever way I decide it will be the wrong decision and I will wish I did the other. I have been offered a blue roan and a sable mate by a local colleague.
> 
> I haven't heard any more news on the Choc and tan front but am going to Crufts on Sunday so will try and go and talk to the breed council and cocker club while I am there.
> Thank you to all of you for your advice - we need to keep pushing the kennel club and the breed council on the colour front.


What are you going to do if she has a sable roan as that colour isn't on the list either.

The thing most reputable breeders do is to breed parti to parti and solid to solid to prevent mismarks .


----------



## jaffa (Oct 19, 2009)

Sable is down on the list now but not the variation of the sable colour but would avoid that one until that particular can of worms has been sorted out as well.


----------

