# Abandoned dog shot by police in Hartlepoole



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Horrific, he looks like a Caucasian shepherd to me, probably some idiot wanted a status dog & then couldn't cope with him.

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/t...dly-shot-dead-14184413#ICID=sharebar_facebook


----------



## Sproglet (Aug 25, 2017)

Poor dog. Don't see what else the police, vets and RSPA could have done, as they apparently they didn't have a tranquilizer gun. Totally irresponsible owners though


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

I saw that earlier - so needless and heartbreaking. I agree, it definitely doesn’t look like a GSD. 

I saw so many comments on FB about the police taking the easy way out etc. Totally unfair, if you get a dog like that who’s absolutely terrified, you’re not getting within 10 feet of it


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

What a desperately sad way for a living being to spend its final hours


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Poor thing. Do wish he could have been saved, even if only to be euthanised in a more humane way later on if that was the right thing. Still, those who made the decision are more qualified than me. The person responsible for the dog's death is the one who abandoned him. Hope they're tracked down and held to account.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Not the first Caucasian being dumped I've seen this year! Up to three now! Bloody ridiculous breeding these dogs as there are very VERY few suitable homes in the UK. Bloody disgrace. I'm not surprised they shot it though, no way you could get near it and due to the size and strength I'm not surprised they didn't bother trying - despite the fact I know a rescue had offered to go and try and get the dog and take it to their sanctuary especially created for dogs like this.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sarah H said:


> Not the first Caucasian being dumped I've seen this year! Up to three now! Bloody ridiculous breeding these dogs as there are very VERY few suitable homes in the UK. Bloody disgrace. I'm not surprised they shot it though, no way you could get near it and due to the size and strength I'm not surprised they didn't bother trying - despite the fact I know a rescue had offered to go and try and get the dog and take it to their sanctuary especially created for dogs like this.


They did bother. They had the RSPCA And a vet there, from what I understand


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> They did bother. They had the RSPCA And a vet there, from what I understand


From what I've heard through the rescue grapevine, RSPCA did nothing - as usual. They got people there - dog was understandably aggressive - those particular people (RSPCA) assessed the dog and decided shooting it was the best option. I'm not actually saying it wasn't the best option for this dog, just that there was someone ready to send a breed experienced handler and get the dog to safety - their offer was not taken up and the dog is dead.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sarah H said:


> From what I've heard through the rescue grapevine, RSPCA did nothing - as usual. They got people there - dog was understandably aggressive - those particular people (RSPCA) assessed the dog and decided shooting it was the best option. I'm not actually saying it wasn't the best option for this dog, just that there was someone ready to send a breed experienced handler and get the dog to safety - their offer was not taken up and the dog is dead.


Does it say that a breed experienced handler was on their way, or is this on the grapevine? I'm always quite wary of Chinese whispers after anything like this happens.

TBH, the dog was being assessed by the RSPCA and several vets, who all agreed this was the best way forward. Would a rescue even have been able to put it up for adoption? We have absolutely no idea what this dog's past is, what it's overall temperament was like etc, so really only those who were there would have been able to make an informed decision. I can't believe that vets would say "oh, just shoot it" if they thought that there was any other way of saving it.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Does it say that a breed experienced handler was on their way, or is this on the grapevine? I'm always quite wary of Chinese whispers after anything like this happens.
> 
> TBH, the dog was being assessed by the RSPCA and several vets, who all agreed this was the best way forward. Would a rescue even have been able to put it up for adoption? We have absolutely no idea what this dog's past is, what it's overall temperament was like etc, so really only those who were there would have been able to make an informed decision. I can't believe that vets would say "oh, just shoot it" if they thought that there was any other way of saving it.


I know there was an offer of an experienced handler and a rescue spot for the dog. It's a sanctuary for dogs with human aggression problems and they slowly rehab the dog. Some never leave, but some do.

I know the rescue grapevine can be...errrm...not the most reliable! But the offer was definitely there - I think they are just angry that they weren't even allowed to try.

Not saying that shooting it wasn't the best course of action - we weren't there and can't say. Just sad that the dog had to lose his life that way despite the offer for help. Had the handler also thought there wasn't any hope then fair enough - they've a;ready dealt with 2 of the same breed this year alone!

Just frustrating knowing the offer was there. And the owner and breeder will probably never get a punishment suitable for what they did to the poor dog.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Grainy photograph, but it certainly appears to be a C/O. 

In all probability, the dog got too much for its good-for-nothing, ignorant owner to handle because they reared in the wrong environment/surroundings. 
Inadequate provisions for any of these dogs will turn them into your worst nightmare.
Your neighbours too.

Someone must know who owned this dog. They just don't fit into any background without going unnoticed.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Zaros said:


> In all probability, the dog got too much for its good-for-nothing, ignorant owner to handle because they reared in the wrong environment/surroundings.
> Inadequate provisions for any of these dogs will turn them into your worst nightmare.
> Your neighbours too.


I remember @Pappychi saying that she was really worried, as she had seen a rise in their popularity as status dogs, so it's only a matter of time before they get added to the register


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> I remember @Pappychi saying that she was really worried, as she had seen a rise in their popularity as status dogs, so it's only a matter of time before they get added to the register


Little do they know, but the people who breed and raise these dogs solely for profit and the status of ownership novelty, are doing the breed and its not too distant cousins a great deal of irreparable harm
It's bleeding ridiculous how the numbers of these dogs and their mixes have been allowed to increase in the UK without check.
For the sake of the breed, I sincerely believe it is in its best interest to be added to the register before someone is killed.
And speaking from gathered and learned experience, these dogs could easily kill or severely maim an adult in an instant.

.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Little do they know, but the people who breed and raise these dogs solely for profit and the status of ownership novelty, are doing the breed and its not too distant cousins a great deal of irreparable harm
> It's bleeding ridiculous how the numbers of these dogs and their mixes have been allowed to increase in the UK without check.
> For the sake of the breed, I sincerely believe it is in its best interest to be added to the register before someone is killed.
> And speaking from gathered and learned experience, these dogs could easily kill or severely maim an adult in an instant.
> ...


Not as forgiving as the bull breeds these chavvy idiots choose either, smack the hell out of one of them & it would probably be the last thing they ever do.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Not as forgiving as the bull breeds these chavvy idiots choose either, smack the hell out of one of them & it would probably be the last thing they ever do.


I believe the vast majority of members have seen the extraordinary proportions of Oscar, so to give some idea of what the short tempered novice owner could be dealing with, can you ever magine them being set upon by something of his size?
He's not going to hang off their arm like most dogs turned aggressive. He's going to run them down before he exacts his justice.
And may the Lord have mercy, and all that jazz, because they show none to the complacent fool.
I've always conveyed the impression that Oscar is a bit of a dope, which might have been extremely wrong of me, because he has had his mmoments, mainly as a direct result of the reckless behaviour of others. 
You only have to cross these dogs once, and you're an enemy for life.
Oscar has two and both live down in the village. He knows them by scent and he knows them by the cars they drive.

Strange, a red volvo C30, for example, could be just another red volvo C30, or red car to the vast majority, yet even from a distance Oscar knows which volvo C30 is approaching.
I'd swear he reads registration plates.


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Back in the 1970's OH and his dad found a dog tied to a pylon at the back of the tar distillery in Hull where they were working.
She was unapproachable scared and very snappy. Dad and OH took turns to sit near her and throw food to her. They did this for a few days until she had settled down and got used to them.
Eventually they were able to untie her and she lived with dad until she died many years later.

These days it seems there has to be an instant fix. I think the best fix would be to find the b**t**d who left the dog and shoot him/her.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dorrit said:


> Back in the 1970's OH and his dad found a dog tied to a pylon at the back of the tar distillery in Hull where they were working.
> She was unapproachable scared and very snappy. Dad and OH took turns to sit near her and throw food to her. They did this for a few days until she had settled down and got used to them.
> Eventually they were able to untie her and she lived with dad until she died many years later.
> 
> These days it seems there has to be an instant fix. I think the best fix would be to find the b**t**d who left the dog and shoot him/her.


I would say the opposite. People used to be far quicker to put a dog to sleep, now they get rescued. But a huge difference between a nervous scared dog that presumably was tied up in a quiet area and later made a good pet and a giant aggressive breed tied up in a busy area.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It worries me that already you have rescues slating the police and RSPCA because apparently they took the easy way out!
Seriously???
These dogs DO NOT belong in the UK, they are serious dogs and urban environments are not suitable full stop!
I think ending this poor dogs misery when they did was far better than languishing in kennels or some sanctuary...I don't believe in BSL but these dogs need licencing AND those licences need to be enforced IMHO


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> It worries me that already you have rescues slating the police and RSPCA because apparently they took the easy way out!
> Seriously???
> These dogs DO NOT belong in the UK, they are serious dogs and urban environments are not suitable full stop!
> I think ending this poor dogs misery when they did was far better than languishing in kennels or some sanctuary...I don't believe in BSL but these dogs need licencing AND those licences need to be enforced IMHO


The problem is it's mostly urban idiots wanting them, if you look at the ads for the puppies they don't really give any indication of the breed's needs, just using words that appeal to macho men like 'protective' & 'guard dog'.

Licensing probably wouldn't work for the low life elements either.

And as ever, ad nauseam, it's the poor bloody animals that suffer


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

Poor Dog  such a sad end  We can only hope that because they are not a common breed, the owner is identified and punished.

I think some of the comments on FB are just bizarre. People saying the dog should have just been left there - it was bloody snowing yesterday and ok the dog has a thick chunky coat, but honestly, they would rather see the dog left outside in the freezing cold, being frightened and scared! 

No death isn't the nicest option but sometimes the police/RSPCA/Vets have to do what they think is right at the time. 

Spending the remainder of his/her life in a rescue centre would not have been ideal either. What sort of mental torture would that have been :\ 

I think this does bring up the subject of all these animals that are rescued that are never going to be suitable to live in a family home, or ones that are so poorly all they know in life is pain. 

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should .....


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Westie Mum said:


> I think this does bring up the subject of all these animals that are rescued that are never going to be suitable to live in a family home, or ones that are so poorly all they know in life is pain.
> 
> Just because we can, doesn't mean we should .....


Exactly this. Not many dogs do well in rescue, through absolutely no fault of the rescues, they do the best that they can; but if a dog is too unpredictable / Ill to be rehomed, and it's unlikely to be thriving in a shelter, then a decision at some point must be made as to what is actually kinder


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

It is so sad that some animals seem as if they are born to lose: born the wrong breed, had a rotten owner, lived a rotten existence and died a rotten death. If he had not been shot, he would likely have ended up advertised on Gumtree or similar and lived out his life chained up in a scrap yard with another rotten owner.
Tied up hungry, scared and alone and surrounded by a crowd of police, vets, RSPCA and rubber-neckers likely made him react more aggressively than he would otherwise have done. Poor dog deserved a better life than he had; that's for sure.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Westie Mum said:


> We can only hope that because they are not a common breed, the owner is identified and punished.


It would be nice if they could be tied to a post and shot in the same way. It's an offence under the AWA (2006) to abandon an animal which is a protected species and dependent on its owner, so let's hope they are identified; doubt he had a microchip, or if he did, the 'owners' will say they sold him to someone whose name they forgot to ask.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> The problem is it's mostly urban idiots wanting them, if you look at the ads for the puppies they don't really give any indication of the breed's needs, just using words that appeal to macho men like 'protective' & 'guard dog'.
> 
> Licensing probably wouldn't work for the low life elements either.
> 
> And as ever, ad nauseam, it's the poor bloody animals that suffer


Yup, yup, yup and yup 

I know licencing wouldn't work (it never does because people don't actually enforce the conditions or even check) it's just I'd rather see this breed on the list rather than most of the breeds already on the list - wishful thinking for the dogs sake 

I love the breed and would absolutely LOVE to have one in the future BUT it isn't in the dogs best interest, these dogs should not be here 

The only person at fault here is the dick that abandoned him instead of stepping up to the plate...not the police and not the RSPCA (and it pains me to say that considering my opinion of the charity)


----------



## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm confused ,that article says German Shepherd? which the police in UK use alot so should be well used to handling?? And why didn't the RSPCA have a tranquiliser gun in their van in case it's needed? ....or the vet?

Editd: photo has finally downloaded,can see that's not a GSD, think they all need to go back and study dog breeds!


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I'm confused ,that article says German Shepherd? which the police in UK use alot so should be well used to handling?? And why didn't the RSPCA have a tranquiliser gun in their van in case it's needed? ....or the vet?
> 
> Editd: photo has finally downloaded,can see that's not a GSD, think they all need to go back and study dog breeds!


Going by the photo, it definitely isn't a GSD. Who knows why that's what has been reported - maybe the reporter just decided that's what it maybe was.

Dart guns are prohibited under the Firearms Act, and as such requires a firearms licence, so no vet is going to be trotting around with one. The law also states that:



> Dart guns are a projectile weapon and as such carry risk of injury to operators, bystanders and the animals themselves.


So maybe a view was taken, maybe given the number of bystanders, that one could not be deployed safely.


----------



## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Going by the photo, it definitely isn't a GSD. Who knows why that's what has been reported - maybe the reporter just decided that's what it maybe was.
> 
> Dart guns are prohibited under the Firearms Act, and as such requires a firearms licence, so no vet is going to be trotting around with one. The law also states that:
> 
> So maybe a view was taken, maybe given the number of bystanders, that one could not be deployed safely.


oh I thought vets had them as seen them on wildlife programs where they use them (admittedly on wild animals, lions in zoo's needing treatment, elephants in africa etc) but if the dog's behaviour was so bad/aggressive they couldn't safely restrain him with regular methods (the loop pole thing and talking to it) then surely they could have used one? The police shot the dog in front of people didn't they? whats the difference? surely a gun with live ammo is more dangerous than one only containing a tranquiliser dart?If a bystander had got in the way of that when firing they'd be dead rather than just asleep for a while!


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Phoenix Rising said:


> oh I thought vets had them as seen them on wildlife programs where they use them (admittedly on wild animals, lions in zoo's needing treatment, elephants in africa etc) but if the dog's behaviour was so bad/aggressive they couldn't safely restrain him with regular methods (the loop pole thing and talking to it) then surely they could have used one? The police shot the dog in front of people didn't they? whats the difference? surely a gun with live ammo is more dangerous than one only containing a tranquiliser dart?If a bystander had got in the way of that when firing they'd be dead rather than just asleep for a while!


We don't know - you're absolutely right about the police shooting him - we can only guess.

This is a Caucasian Ovcharca, it's not so simple as popping a loop on a pole over his head. I'll let @Zaros explain the logistics of that


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> This is a Caucasian Ovcharca, it's not so simple as popping a loop on a pole over his head. I'll let @Zaros explain the logistics of that


Still being reported at several places as being a German Shepherd ...... and people on FB clearly can't read either because all these GS owners are on there saying they have x amount and they are friendly dogs 

I'm sure peoples ignorance of what a Caucasian Ovcharca is, is not helping the outrage. The majority of the facebook world cant understand why the police have shot someone's fluffy GS


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Sad but eventually inevitable with how popular such breeds are becoming for 'pets' - when they are on gumtree and the like 

No-one goes into work wanting to shoot a dog... they tried to locate the owner, risk assessments were made and the various people who were in front of the dog decided that would be the best measure to take - I assume it wasn't an easy decision. 

Hindsight is always 20-20.

Very sad for the dog - someone must know who owned this dog, they aren't a breed that blends inconspicuously into the background.


----------



## Guest (Jan 22, 2018)

Just speculation on my part, but I wonder if whoever tied him to a pole knew that would doom him. Often these dogs are taught to be aggressive when tied out like that, and it's likely his aggression was intensified because he was tied up. 

Personally I would rather the dog see a human death (and a bullet can be humane) than languish in a rescue or sanctuary. There are far worse things than a humane death for a troubled dog. And languishing for years in a shelter or being 'rehabilitated' with questionable means to live a life they were never designed to live is not necessarily better. 

I hope the owners are found and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Just speculation on my part, but I wonder if whoever tied him to a pole knew that would doom him. *Often these dogs are taught to be aggressive when tied out like that*, and it's likely his aggression was intensified because he was tied up.
> 
> Personally I would rather the dog see a human death (and a bullet can be humane) than languish in a rescue or sanctuary. There are far worse things than a humane death for a troubled dog. And languishing for years in a shelter or being 'rehabilitated' with questionable means to live a life they were never designed to live is not necessarily better.
> 
> I hope the owners are found and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


I've seen a guy advertising his CO for stud showing pictures of him doing bitework with the dog!

I'd be interested to see how tight the network is for these people, because I bet there's not that many in the UK, someone must know something.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

The rescues are flooding with this breed, the free ads as well. 

Full of this breed at just the age when the dog is becoming a ‘pain’ for its ignorant, ill informed owners. 

It’s a catch 22 situation because if Bear would
Have been in that situation he would have bitten. And meant it. 

I can’t blame the dog and I can’t blame the police. The soul responsibility lays with its worthless owner.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> We don't know - you're absolutely right about the police shooting him - we can only guess.
> 
> This is a Caucasian Ovcharca, it's not so simple as popping a loop on a pole over his head. I'll let @Zaros explain the logistics of that


In very simple and basic terms...

At best, you'd be facing an already confused and agitated dog that weighs approximately 50kg - 60kg, is all muscle and doesn't trust or take kindly to complete strangers interfering in his life. Nature programmed him to scare you, the intruder and trespasser away. This is achieved by posturing and being very vocal. You should listen to him. He does not fear you or any weapon you might choose to defend yourself against him. You cannot frighten him and should you attempt to do so, he will accept your challenge without reservation.
At worst, he's going to weigh in excess of 90 plus kilos and be extremely angry that you did not heed his vocal warning to turn away and simply clear off when it was in your best interests to do so.
Providing you can get a control pole (your weapon of choice which, incidentally, he views as an imminent threat) over his head and around his neck, his temper will have peaked, and it is at this very point you put yourself in danger because you're attached to him and he's now in battle mode.

Question: In this Hartlepool incident, Who's going to be the volunteer who dares to release the dog from the post he's fastened to?

But let's suppose for a moment this dog wasn't fastened to anything at all, in which case you'd better have the muscles of Hercules because holding on to the pole is probably the worst thing you could do. He's far stronger than you could ever possibly imagine, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the man who thought he might be able to restrain such a large ferocious dog, that far outweighs me, at the end of a stick.

Sad though it is, it is far better for this dog to be out of this world than remain in it and isolated in an alien environment..Owing to what he's experienced, he's going to take some considerable time to learn to trust someone again, if ever at all.

A truly needless and tragic loss of such a magnificent animal.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Phoenix Rising said:


> oh I thought vets had them as seen them on wildlife programs where they use them (admittedly on wild animals, lions in zoo's needing treatment, elephants in africa etc) but if the dog's behaviour was so bad/aggressive they couldn't safely restrain him with regular methods (the loop pole thing and talking to it) then surely they could have used one? The police shot the dog in front of people didn't they? whats the difference? surely a gun with live ammo is more dangerous than one only containing a tranquiliser dart?If a bystander had got in the way of that when firing they'd be dead rather than just asleep for a while!


My boy had to be muzzled and sedated for a regularly check up at the vet. When he went in for his brain scan me and my dad had to sit outside the vets as a double team should he wake up and react badly.

So they Rescue this dog - what's next? Rehoming? Where? How many homes are prepared to live with this breed?

I made a conscious decision to live and raise Bear when I took him in. It was my job to protect him and the general public.

Let me tell you it was hard work - we walked him in pairs, even though he was a good lad and never showed signs of aggression on a walk, just so I could explain to people that I didn't want them to get too close or to hug him or touch him.

I had a huge pen built behind my home so if we ever got visitors he was safe and so were they.

I loved him to pieces but the entire process is exhausting.

I just hope that in his short life that I did him justice


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> So they Rescue this dog - what's next? Rehoming? Where? How many homes are prepared to live with this breed?


Unfortunately most don't care...so long as the dog is saved 
IMHO the dog was saved, saved from a life of misery...

And you did Bear proud, don't let anyone convince you otherwise k?


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Poor dog, I really hope they find the lowlife that left him out there...somebody must know who it is as its def a distinctive dog to own.
Hard to hold any blame for the police or vets though. They were able to make the decisions whilst the dog was safely tethered too so Im sure the risks to the rescuers vs the dogs life were weighed up carefully.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

The Dogs Trust in Ilfracombe have just rehomed one with a young man who says he has never seen one before.

She's between 6/9 months old and already weighs 7 stone. The Dogs Trust named her 'Fluffy'.


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

Updates on Facebook ..... everyone still ranting how cruel the police and RSPCA are for shooting a German shepherd  Hopefully one of them will actually post a bit more info on the beed, maybe all the rangers would get it a bit more


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Rafa said:


> The Dogs Trust in Ilfracombe have just rehomed one with a young man who says he has never seen one before.
> 
> She's between 6/9 months old and already weighs 7 stone. The Dogs Trust named her 'Fluffy'.


THEY DID WHAT?!


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

I’ve also seen posts today from one rescue who offered to send “an experienced handler” to dart the dog and they would house him/her. 

Same rescue who is always appealing for food donations as they cannot afford to feed the animals they do have. 

As much as (most) rescues do an excellent job and save countless animals, we cannot save them all .....


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

And idiot comment on Facebook this afternoon goes to “if someone had gone and brought a chicken and fed the dog, it wouldn’t have been aggressive”. 

Seriously. Facebook makes me so angry and frustrated at time :Banghead


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)




----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

She's lovely but I still seriously worry about the future of this breed


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Maybe the best thing for the dog was a humane death., But I get a bit fed up with the "We didn't have a tranquiliser gun" used an an excuse to shoot the poor sod with a rifle. That dog was cold, hurting and frightened and its hardly surprising he was aggressive. The least they could do is have the necessary gear at hand to put the animal under then euthanize in his sleep. Not shoot the poor animal. 7th richest country in the world but local authorities, RSPCA and vets cannot muster a tranquiliser gun between them. Pathetic!

Let me ask would anybody here claiming shooting is humane want to be on the end of a bullet?


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Poor dog, sad situation all round however from what I've seen news wise and the information on the breed from this thread it does sound like what happened was the best course of action . I don't blame the police/rspca/vets either, it does sound like they are saddened by what happened as well and if they could of taken another course of action then they would. I hope the owner is tracked down and justice is found for this dog. I was wondering about the articles I saw staying it was a German shepherd, I was looking and thinking surely not?! Thanks for clarifying the breed, not one i know much about however definetly don't sound suitable for the average owner


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Unfortunately most don't care...so long as the dog is saved
> IMHO the dog was saved, saved from a life of misery...
> 
> And you did Bear proud, don't let anyone convince you otherwise k?


Thank you 

Watching so many of this breed struggle because of ignorant, ill-equipped owners is really getting me down at the minute  I'm with Zaros may be a ban is what's needed to protect the public and the CO.

Years ago I heard of an attack from a CO up in Manchester - serious damage done


----------



## Guest (Jan 22, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> Let me ask would anybody here claiming shooting is humane want to be on the end of a bullet?


In the late 80's I worked for a large animal vet who carried a rifle in the back of his mobile van as did/do most of his fellow veterinarians. I'm not going to get in to gory details of specific cases, but, yes, shooting is sometimes the best, most humane option.


----------



## Guest (Jan 22, 2018)

Rafa said:


> View attachment 342744


The frustrating thing is, with how widely the temperaments vary, it's very possible that this particular dog might be a big old marshmallow and be absolutely fine. Which just adds to the misinformation out there about the breed. Because for every marshmallow CO out there, there are plenty of serious guardian dogs who don't suffer fools.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> The frustrating thing is, with how widely the temperaments vary, it's very possible that this particular dog might be a big old marshmallow and be absolutely fine. Which just adds to the misinformation out there about the breed. Because for every marshmallow CO out there, there are plenty of serious guardian dogs who don't suffer fools.


Lucky bag dogs. They really are.

I had an odd blend of a dog who would show a serious guarding streak if people got too close, completely ignored other dogs and adored cats.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

It's OK, the moron who bought the dog and dumped it can go and get another one! 









Something needs to be done about people breeding these specialist breeds...


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

This from the RSPCA:

Thank you to everyone who has raised concerns and frustration about the dog that was shot in Hartlepool. We completely understand that it is an upsetting situation, and it is not the outcome that anybody would have wanted.

We attended the scene to try and help the dog but did not make the decision to shoot her. We tried our best to find another option by seeking advice from an independent vet. The vet's advice was that sedation was not an option and that unfortunately, the kindest course of action was to euthanise the dog.

A rehoming charity also attended, and advised that due to the extreme aggression of the dog, rehoming her would sadly not be an option.

Abandoning any dog is totally unacceptable and in this case had tragic consequences. We would urge anyone with information about who might have done this to please contact the Hartlepool Police, quoting log number CVP/18/011857.

If you have any further questions, we would encourage you to contact the police.


----------



## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

It's worrying how quickly they seem to be gaining popularity. Not long ago you'd see the odd advert for one here and there but there are currently nearly thirty adverts for them on Pets4Homes alone, most of which are either litters for sale or dogs for stud. Lots of bragging about size and the dogs being from working lines, almost nothing about the breed itself or their specialist needs other than an occasional "knowledgeable people only as they'll be big dogs" :Banghead

It's almost inevitable that it's going to go horribly tits up at some point...


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I think that putting them on the banned list in this country is probably the best thing to do for the sake of the breed.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cbcdesign said:


> Maybe the best thing for the dog was a humane death., But I get a bit fed up with the "We didn't have a tranquiliser gun" used an an excuse to shoot the poor sod with a rifle. That dog was cold, hurting and frightened and its hardly surprising he was aggressive. The least they could do is have the necessary gear at hand to put the animal under then euthanize in his sleep. Not shoot the poor animal. 7th richest country in the world but local authorities, RSPCA and vets cannot muster a tranquiliser gun between them. Pathetic!
> 
> Let me ask would anybody here claiming shooting is humane want to be on the end of a bullet?


Shooting probably is the most humane way to deal with a dog like that. Obviously it is different for people as we know what is happening but yes, if I had to be euthanased and I was off my head with fear and anger I think a bullet would be kinder than the fright of a dart that slowly knocked me out then being killed anyway.

There was another way though, if you squirt a hefty dose of anaesthetic (or the drug used for euthanasia) into the dogs mouth, which should be possible if it was tied up and barking and snarling in your direction, then it will be absorbed and the dog will go to sleep or die depending on the dose. Not sure how long it takes though and it might not have been safe in that situation.


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Blitz said:


> Shooting probably is the most humane way to deal with a dog like that. Obviously it is different for people as we know what is happening but yes, if I had to be euthanased and I was off my head with fear and anger I think a bullet would be kinder than the fright of a dart that slowly knocked me out then being killed anyway.
> 
> There was another way though, if you squirt a hefty dose of anaesthetic (or the drug used for euthanasia) into the dogs mouth, which should be possible if it was tied up and barking and snarling in your direction, then it will be absorbed and the dog will go to sleep or die depending on the dose. Not sure how long it takes though and it might not have been safe in that situation.


I would of imagined someone would have to get pretty close to the dog to do that. And in the state the dog is described as being in I would also think there's a high chance of someone being attacked if they got too close. So I wouldn't think that's a safe option. Then again I wasn't there so can't judge.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Mirandashell said:


> I think that putting them on the banned list in this country is probably the best thing to do for the sake of the breed.


Cos that really helped for pitbulls! There are now, allegedly, more pitbulls ( types) in the country than there were when the ban was first implemented
the only thing that will stop it, in mho, is having a compulsory steralisation of every one of the breed in the country and an import ban on any others
Any owners not complying should be heavily fined/imprisoned ( lets face it we are looking at severe danger to life) and any dogs in their care destroyed therefor, making them the immediate person responsible for their own actions and the fate of their 'beloved' dogs - no one else


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Boxerluver30 said:


> I would of imagined someone would have to get pretty close to the dog to do that. And in the state the dog is described as being in I would also think there's a high chance of someone being attacked if they got too close. So I wouldn't think that's a safe option. Then again I wasn't there so can't judge.


Yeah, no idea if it could have worked. The one I know that was done that way had a mesh fence in the way so when it attacked through the fence it could be squirted. If this dog was very securely tied up it might have been possible but high risk. in any case a bullet was kinder.


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

SingingWhippet said:


> there are currently nearly thirty adverts for them on Pets4Homes alone, most of which are either litters for sale or dogs for stud


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I don't think a ban/register will help much either tbh. It's not prevented pitbulls which are banned being owned in the uk. We all know BSL as is is ineffective. Someone mentioned earlier COs are starting to become status dogs, well imo that will become worse if they are put on the banned breeds list. I think education is needed, people need to be made aware this breed is not suitable for the average owner and they involve a lot of work to manage. I would imagine the vast majority of the general public don't have a clue, see cute puppy ads and don't take into consideration the breed traits/temperament being an LGD etc. This is what needs to change imo, yes you will still get the idiots going out getting them as status dogs whatever we do however at least it's a step in the right direction 

I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this but from what I have seen bans don't work very well, especially when they aren't enforced properly


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

mrs phas said:


> Cos that really helped for pitbulls! There are now, allegedly, more pitbulls ( types) in the country than there were when the ban was first implemented


Is there evidence for that?


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm not saying that the ban would be totally effective but it would ensure there won't be 40 puppies up for sale on Pets4homes.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> It worries me that already you have rescues slating the police and RSPCA because apparently they took the easy way out!
> Seriously???
> These dogs DO NOT belong in the UK, they are serious dogs and urban environments are not suitable full stop!
> I think ending this poor dogs misery when they did was far better than languishing in kennels or some sanctuary...I don't believe in BSL but these dogs need licencing AND those licences need to be enforced IMHO


I find this to be interesting. How many people have Caucasian Shepherds killed since the beginning of last year compared to how many a certain other type of dog has killed in the same time (which is something like 40 with injuries including fractured skulls, disembowelments and dismemberments). Yet you wouldn't be saying that the latter doesn't belong in this country and need to be stringently licenced now would you?

And for the record, I do not think this dog should have been killed. There were offers of help before the dog was shot and they were rejected by the police. The dog was never given a chance!

As for the excuse that the vet apparently gave about not being able to get close enough to dart it. Here is a wildlife vet successfully tranquilizing a wild dog from a reasonable distance away. 



 And to any of you saying how the dog wouldn't have coped in a sanctuary. How do you know that? Are you psychic?


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I find this to be interesting. How many people have Caucasian Shepherds killed since the beginning of last year compared to how many a certain other type of dog has killed in the same time (which is something like 40 with injuries including fractured skulls, disembowelments and dismemberments). Yet you wouldn't be saying that the latter doesn't belong in this country and need to be stringently licenced now would you?
> 
> And for the record, I do not think this dog should have been killed. There were offers of help before the dog was shot and they were rejected by the police. The dog was never given a chance!
> 
> ...


I don't need to be psychic to tell you that - I've owned, lived, worked and continue to be involved with the Caucasian in the U.K.

Additionally, you're comparing apples to oranges with that little comparison you've got going there


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I do not think this dog should have been killed. There were offers of help before the dog And to any of you saying how the dog wouldn't have coped in a sanctuary. How do you know that? Are you psychic?


To put an end to any life by the means of a single bullet, is a very sad affair indeed. We can only hope the marksman was good at his trade and the dog knew nothing of its tragic death.
But might I just tell you something I know from hard learned experience? I'll try to keep it as short as possible...

Some of these dogs are beyond the help of anyone if the owner has gone, whether that owner has died or, as in this case, abandoned the animal because it is no longer wanted. They imprint themselves on one person, one family and it is almost always to the exclusion of all others.
That is their intrinsic design. It is also their weakness.

Take the example of Zara & Oscar. They both adore MrsZee's mother, MrsZee's life long family friend, both who we see twice a year because of the distances involved, Zara's breeder, and a couple we befriended some years ago who own Finnish Lapphunds. For some inexplicable reason, neither of them will entertain MrsZee's brother. Neither dog nor man are allowed in the same room together
Oscar has a few more acquaintances because he's far more sociable than Zara is and ever will be.

Theirs, like most of their kind, is a very exclusive club and if you're not a member you're just not getting in.

If the worst should happen and we were killed in a road accident, then Zara's breeder is the one and only lifeline she has. Without him, Zara's life expectancy after the fact would zero. Without Zara's breeder, Oscar might be rescued by other means, but only might. MrsZee's friend does not have the appropriaate facilities to take care of either dog because she lives in an appartment. The MIL old and frail.

However, and realistically let's look at Oscar. You'd have to know him inside out before you could walk him anywhere, and in order to know him inside out you'd have to walk him. You'd have to know his character, his temperament, his little quirks, the things that he does for mischief and the things that set his alarm bells ringing.
Supposing the unspeakable did happen and suppose Oscar went to a family who could provide the appropriate surroundings/environment for him. Supposing he'd been under their care for a couple of months and then one day, due to familiarity, trust and the essential need to be himself once again, he decides to set upon his new owner. Not seriously, but for fun. Oscar and I often rough house together, It's a game that has developed over the years and one he likes to initiate when ever and where ever the mischief overtakes him.
One minute you're going about your business and the next, you're on the floor and being bulldozed along and then pawed beneath him, into a positon where he finally straddles your body and then forces his big head down onto you and bulldozes you some more. What about his habit of stealing a glove from your hand? Or the baseball cap from your head? These are the little games only Oscar and I play. Sometmes Zara might join in.

Not having experienced such behaviour before, how would his new owner react? Would they be able to distinguish a play fight from a genuine attack? It all sounds serious enough with his growling and his snarling. Yet I've never been bitten. Okay so he concussed me one time and broke the end of my little finger. But such injuries can be sustained anywhere. Right?

And then, of course, there is the matter of walking these type of dogs. Particularly matured specimens that you're attempting to familiarise yourself with. They're forward thinkers and can out think and out wit us humans with lightning speed.
Your attentions must be divided. One eye on the body language of the dog and one eye on the horizon. But don't be drawn into a false sense of security by your own vigilance because the dog's instincts are a universe beyond your physical sight.
The dog is actually a remarkable barometer of what might be round the next corner or just over the hill, and you have to be able to read those signs without fault.

In really short terms, these dogs are all baggage, most of it hidden. They are ongoing projects and one you cannot and must not tire of.

When all is said and done, I suppose it's very easy for the uninitiated to say these dogs can be rescued, when the terrible truth is, because of what they are, they often can't.

And the very real tragedy is that, in the end, they become their own worst enemy.

As this sad case in Hartlepool has proven.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Yaay our resident bull breed basher is back 

You weren't there, the police did NOT go out that day to kill a dog...It is clear that you have zero knowledge of tranquilizers and how they work but please do go on to tell us how you would have saved this dog and turned her into a respectable member of society...how many of these dogs do you have experience with again?


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

I think we must also remember, with all the police bashing, that someone was given an order to shoot the dog. That person was doing their job and i can't imagine it was a very nice experience for him either and certainly one he never thought he would be carrying out when he started his shift that morning. I can only imagine how upsetting all the police bashing is for him - some of the things that have been said about him (them) are truely awful


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Yaay our resident bull breed basher is back
> 
> You weren't there, the police did NOT go out that day to kill a dog...It is clear that you have zero knowledge of tranquilizers and how they work but please do go on to tell us how you would have saved this dog and turned her into a respectable member of society...how many of these dogs do you have experience with again?


Oh a bull breed basher? Hmmm.

Sounds like an armchair expert to me


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> I'm not saying that the ban would totally effective but it would there won't 40 puppies up for sale on Pets4homes.


From what I have read on this thread it is totally shocking there are two pages of Caucasian Shepherds on Pets4homes, seems like they are a disaster waiting to happen! Very sad for the poor dog in Hartlepool, poor girl was pretty much doomed from birth.


----------



## MissSpitzMum (Dec 4, 2017)

Awful thing to have happened, but I can understand why. Its easy to sit back and say they should have done this, that and the other, but if the police, the RSPCA, a vet and a rescue centre coorindator all said after hours of trying that ending its life there and then was the best thing to do then I can only assume it really was.

This breed of dog does worry me. The more I read about it the more concerned I get. So many are being sold to homes with no experience, and apparently many end up being picked up as strays. I hate the fads that status breeds go through, because every breed the status dog fad touches it ruins. Staffies - ruined reputation. Huskys - rescue shelters full to the brim of them. Rottweiler - reputation ruined. I'm also seeing other large breed dogs, like the presa canario, being sold more and more. Another breed that needs a confident and competant owner. 

I don't think banning breeds is the answer, but this country needs something to happen. A mandatory training class, licensing for owning any dog, and mandatory pet insurance all spring to mind with exclusions for those who need them (the homeless, the disabled, the unemployed). Surely they would be easy to check if it can all be linked to microchips.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

MissSpitzMum said:


> Awful thing to have happened, but I can understand why. Its easy to sit back and say they should have done this, that and the other, but if the police, the RSPCA, a vet and a rescue centre coorindator all said after hours of trying that ending its life there and then was the best thing to do then I can only assume it really was.
> 
> This breed of dog does worry me. The more I read about it the more concerned I get. So many are being sold to homes with no experience, and apparently many end up being picked up as strays. I hate the fads that status breeds go through, because every breed the status dog fad touches it ruins. Staffies - ruined reputation. Huskys - rescue shelters full to the brim of them. Rottweiler - reputation ruined. I'm also seeing other large breed dogs, like the presa canario, being sold more and more. Another breed that needs a confident and competant owner.
> 
> I don't think banning breeds is the answer, but this country needs something to happen. A mandatory training class, licensing for owning any dog, and mandatory pet insurance all spring to mind with exclusions for those who need them (the homeless, the disabled, the unemployed). Surely they would be easy to check if it can all be linked to microchips.


I wholeheartedly believe that the first course of action is to ban all animal sales through websites such as pets4homes / gumtree etc. and pet shops. That will severely hamper the backyard breeders and puppy mills. Of course they will always find another way around it, but it's a start.


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Ireland require you to have a dog licence - doesn't seem very well policed though.

Dog trainers can't even agree amongst themselves what the best methods are - how you'd implemented a mandatory training class, I have no clue.

BSL, where banned "types" - not the breed, just what they look like - doesn't have to do anything wrong... owners have to go through a lengthy, expensive court process to try and keep their dog alive, _if_ they manage that, the dog needs to be kept leashed and muzzled in public, neutered, microchipped and the owner has to have public liability insurance, pay fees, have check ups, and have a background check to make sure they are capable of caring for such a dog... law has been around since 1991, these "types" should have disappeared right? But no, more and more are being seized as "type".

Rescues have to euthanise many of these dogs every single week because they cannot legally re-home them, no one can fight for their case since they have no owner... perfectly healthy, happy, good, often young, people orientated dogs killed purely because of what they look like. Other healthy dogs get killed because there is no space. Yet people are more angry about an aggressive dog being killed? Maybe it's because it's fluffy :Muted

Persecuting anything on the basis, appearance = dangerous to public, is rather silly and pointless IMO.

Common sense should kick in at some point - a dog bred for generations to work independently without a handler, work in the middle of nowhere guarding a flock/livestock, these dogs need to assess dangers, treat anything new with great suspicion and get rid of said danger.

How in anyone's mind can someone seriously think such a dog can be a good, stable pet in a really built up environment? Cars, people, visitors, dogs, vet visits, things changing regularly - that's going to be one sad, anxious, worked up mess of a dog who cannot settle. Ok - you may get the odd few who don't fit in the category but there are plenty of other breeds that are much more suited to an urban environment.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> How in anyone's mind can someone seriously think such a dog can be a good, stable pet in a really built up environment?


Unfortunately there are countless people on fb proclaiming to own one and they are "just fine with kids, dogs and even strangers don't ya know" "It's all in how they are raised you see"

:Rage

I would just like to make it clear though as I was the one to bring up banning them...I do not, and never will agree with BSL as it stands (DDA covers everything needed if it is enforced properly, although even when it is implemented you get cries of "Oh no that tiny fluffy dog could cause no harm, how mean!") BUT and this is a big but...if ANY dog belonged on this list then it isn't the ones listed (there are breeds on there, it's just the pit that is "typed") it would be these dogs.
And I say this for the dogs sake, the UK is not a suitable place for the vast majority of them and the list of suitable homes is so few and far between it sucks!
I have no idea how we could police it but I'm sick of this "Oh but they are just big cute bears" trend...

/rant


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I find this to be interesting. How many people have Caucasian Shepherds killed since the beginning of last year compared to how many a certain other type of dog has killed in the same time (which is something like 40 with injuries including fractured skulls, disembowelments and dismemberments).


I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous comparison to make. I assume you are referring to bull breeds, of which there are a far greater number than there are CO's in this country. It's like looking at death rated in England and comparing the number of car accidents to shark attacks.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sairy said:


> I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous comparison to make. I assume you are referring to bull breeds, of which there are a far greater number than there are CO's in this country. It's like looking at death rated in England and comparing the number of car accidents to shark attacks.


Or being bitten on the NYC subway to shark attacks


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

ShibaPup said:


> Ireland require you to have a dog licence - doesn't seem very well policed though.
> 
> Dog trainers can't even agree amongst themselves what the best methods are - how you'd implemented a mandatory training class, I have no clue.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head - they're fluffy. And let's not forget only bull breeds or Black and Tan dogs can be aggressive  I've rolled my eyes really hard so if any can retrieve them that would be wonderful 

These dogs are not for urban environments. They're not for casual owners or people who don't understand LSG breeds.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> a certain other type of dog


Yes, and we all know to which type of dog you're referring.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> The dog was never given a chance!


He never had a chance from the outset because he obviously ended up with people who could not cope with him; and yes, I bet he was a lovely fluffy puppy, just like a big bear cub. And bet your life a lot of lovely fluffy pups just like him will end up in a similar situation.


----------



## Guest (Jan 23, 2018)

I find it interesting @LurcherGreyoundGirl that on the one hand you express regret that the dog in question was never given a chance, and yet you're willing to write off all pitbulls without giving them a chance. 
Strange dichotomy there....


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I find it interesting @LurcherGreyoundGirl that on the one hand you express regret that the dog in question was never given a chance, and yet you're willing to write off all pitbulls without giving them a chance.
> Strange dichotomy there....


I think it's all bullies, not just pitties


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> I think it's all bullies, not just pitties


And particularly Staffies.


----------



## Guest (Jan 23, 2018)

Mirandashell said:


> Is there evidence for that?


I don't think we have any way of knowing how many pitbulls there are in the UK or how many there were before the ban. It's an extremely complex topic. For one, many consider pitbulls a "type" as opposed to a breed. In the US, you have a breed registry for APBT (American Pit Bull Terrier) and AmStaffs (American Staffordshire Terrier) and some dogs are dual registered as both. Many are not registered at all, much like a "working collie" in the UK is indeed a border collie but not necessarily a pedigree dog if that makes sense.
So first you would have to decide on what exactly IS a pitbull terrier. And in the UK it's a "type" based on measurements that frankly put a boxerXlab as of "type". So yeah....

There is ample evidence however that breed bans don't do what they purport to do.
In US cities and municipalities where breeds are banned, dog bites and deaths by dog bites have not gone down. In fact in many of those places the number of bites goes up. On multiple levels, breed bans just don't work.

What does work are consequences for the owners who allow their dogs to be dangerously out of control. Making dog fighting a felony in all 50 states was a huge victory. That and other quantifiable human behavior like chaining or penning dogs. In areas where chaining laws have been enacted, there has been some measurable improvements.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> I don't need to be psychic to tell you that - I've owned, lived, worked and continue to be involved with the Caucasian in the U.K.
> 
> Additionally, you're comparing apples to oranges with that little comparison you've got going there


Again, how many people have been killed by the breed in question compared to how many have been killed by pit bulls?



Zaros said:


> To put an end to any life by the means of a single bullet, is a very sad affair indeed. We can only hope the marksman was good at his trade and the dog knew nothing of its tragic death.
> But might I just tell you something I know from hard learned experience? I'll try to keep it as short as possible...
> 
> Some of these dogs are beyond the help of anyone if the owner has gone, whether that owner has died or, as in this case, abandoned the animal because it is no longer wanted. They imprint themselves on one person, one family and it is almost always to the exclusion of all others.
> ...


That is purely anecdotal evidence and does not pertain to this case.



StormyThai said:


> Yaay our resident bull breed basher is back
> 
> You weren't there, the police did NOT go out that day to kill a dog...It is clear that you have zero knowledge of tranquilizers and how they work but please do go on to tell us how you would have saved this dog and turned her into a respectable member of society...how many of these dogs do you have experience with again?


Never answered my question did you? Funny that. I also know enough about tranquilizing to know that fast moving wild animals have been successfully darted yet this dog which was tethered and basically a sitting target was impossible to dart. Yeah right!



Pappychi said:


> Oh a bull breed basher? Hmmm.
> 
> Sounds like an armchair expert to me


No, just going by what people who were actually there had to say. I know for a fact that offers of help were rejected by the police because they had already decided the dog's fate.

The RSPCA needlessly kills thousands of animals every single year. They have killed dogs with captive bolt guns. They have lied in advertising campaigns. For years they pinched money from Scottish donors without letting them know their money wouldn't be helping Scottish animals. What a brilliant charity - not! As for vets. They are primarily trained to treat and diagnose physical ailments not behavioural ones. The rehoming charity they apparently consulted has not made a statement and there was no mention at all of a fully qualified behaviourist attending the scene.



ShibaPup said:


> Ireland require you to have a dog licence - doesn't seem very well policed though.
> 
> Dog trainers can't even agree amongst themselves what the best methods are - how you'd implemented a mandatory training class, I have no clue.
> 
> ...


And another contradictory post. You go from saying how wrong it is that an incredibly game driven fighting breed of dog (that has killed hundreds of people and maimed countless others) to saying that another breed (that has killed how many people?) has no place in an urban environment.

As for the type being banned and not the breed. The reason the type is banned is because the breed itself is banned! The American Pit Bull Terrier is NOT a legal breed in the UK and that is why dogs that conform to the majority (not just a few) of its breed characteristics are also illegal.



Sairy said:


> I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous comparison to make. I assume you are referring to bull breeds, of which there are a far greater number than there are CO's in this country. It's like looking at death rated in England and comparing the number of car accidents to shark attacks.


Nonsense! You can compare death and injury statistics from different breeds of dogs, but cannot compare deaths and injuries from inanimate objects to attacks by sharks and you know it.



ouesi said:


> I don't think we have any way of knowing how many pitbulls there are in the UK or how many there were before the ban. It's an extremely complex topic. For one, many consider pitbulls a "type" as opposed to a breed. In the US, you have a breed registry for APBT (American Pit Bull Terrier) and AmStaffs (American Staffordshire Terrier) and some dogs are dual registered as both. Many are not registered at all, much like a "working collie" in the UK is indeed a border collie but not necessarily a pedigree dog if that makes sense.
> So first you would have to decide on what exactly IS a pitbull terrier. And in the UK it's a "type" based on measurements that frankly put a boxerXlab as of "type". So yeah....
> 
> There is ample evidence however that breed bans don't do what they purport to do.
> ...


There is evidence that supports having bans and restrictions on certain breeds works. BSL was never intended to eliminate every bite, but to reduce serious maulings and fatal attacks. The reason overall bites go up is because of the overall increase in the dog population.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Again, how many people have been killed by the breed in question compared to how many have been killed by pit bulls?
> 
> That is purely anecdotal evidence and does not pertain to this case.
> 
> ...


Wow. I'm truly amazed owning a greyhound and a lurcher makes you such an expert on bullbreeds and Livestock Guardians. Phenomenal.

In general, Bull breeds are forgiving with humans whereas a Caucasian is not.

Caucasians are rarer than the average bullbreed so you're less likely to hear about an attack. The case proves my point - half the population thinks it's a GSD cross.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Again, how many people have been killed by the breed in question compared to how many have been killed by pit bulls?


Are you pretending not to know that there are many, many more Bull Breeds around than there are Caucasian Ovcharkas?

If 3 out of every 4 cars on the road were red, I think we could take it for granted that more fatalities on the roads would involve red cars.


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And another contradictory post. You go from saying how wrong it is that an incredibly game driven fighting breed of dog (that has killed hundreds of people and maimed countless others) to saying that another breed (that has killed how many people?) has no place in an urban environment.
> 
> As for the type being banned and not the breed. The reason the type is banned is because the breed itself is banned! The American Pit Bull Terrier is NOT a legal breed in the UK and that is why dogs that conform to the majority (not just a few) of its breed characteristics are also illegal.


I'm sorry where did I say incredibly game driven fighting breed of dog?

Dog aggression does not equal human aggression - they are different.

Bull breeds are human orientated - they're typically forgiving, human loving dogs. I'm biased I own one but I adore Bull breeds, easy to train, easy to live with, love people - a fab all round dog.

LGDs however are typically not human orientated - they have a few select people they trust, everyone else is not welcome.

BSL does not work for stopping dog-human attacks... all it has done is killed innocent family pets - their only crime is fitting the "type".

"Maulings by dogs can cause terrible injuries47 and death-and it is natural for those dealing with the victims to seek to address the immediate causes. However as Duffy et al (2008) wrote of their survey based data: "_The substantial within-breed variation…suggests that it is inappropriate to make predictions about a given dog's propensity for aggressive behavior based solely on its breed._" While breed is a factor, the impact of other factors relating to the individual animal (such as training method, sex and neutering status), the target (e.g. owner versus stranger), and the context in which the dog is kept (e.g. urban versus rural) prevent breed from having significant predictive value in its own right. Also the nature of a breed has been shown to vary across time, geographically, and according to breed subtypes such as those raised for conformation showing versus field trials.37

Given that breed is a poor sole predictor of aggressiveness and pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention. If breeds are to be targeted a cluster of large breeds would be implicated including the German shepherd and shepherd crosses and other breeds that vary by location."
- https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/L...of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Oh where to start!



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Again, how many people have been killed by the breed in question compared to how many have been killed by pit bulls?


It has been pointed out, more than once, that there are significantly more pitties than COs, so it is impossible to compare



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> That is purely anecdotal evidence and does not pertain to this case


It is entirely pertinent to the case! You have insight from someone who has owned LGBs for years, yet you discount this because it doesn't fit your rhetoric.



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> environment.
> 
> As for the type being banned and not the breed. The reason the type is banned is because the breed itself is banned! The American Pit Bull Terrier is NOT a legal breed in the UK and that is why dogs that conform to the majority (not just a few) of its breed characteristics are also illegal.


You do know that in a litter you could have half that conform and half that don't. Now please explain how the half who conform are suddenly 'dangerous' whilst their littermates aren't?



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Nonsense! You can compare death and injury statistics from different breeds of dogs,


Please provide those statistics



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> There is evidence that supports having bans and restrictions on certain breeds works.


I'm pretty sure I know exactly which website you'll produce for support, but please do enlighten us with this evidence.


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Nonsense! You can compare death and injury statistics from different breeds of dogs, but cannot compare deaths and injuries from inanimate objects to attacks by sharks and you know it.


:Banghead

You can't make a good comparison on death and injury statistics by saying how many people has breed A killed vs how many people has breed B killed when the number of breed A's that exist is vastly lower than the number of breed B's.

It is like saying more people get stung by wasps in Britain than by jellyfish, therefore wasps are worse.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Guys don't waste your breath or stress yourselves.
Nothing we say will change their stance, we have tried and failed over the years!

They are a BSL approver, lets not start a fight our dogs are the shining example of their ill informed opinion


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Just to go off-topic.... Stormy, you've changed your avatar! Where is Thai's face?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> That is purely anecdotal evidence and does not pertain to this case.


:Wideyed Oh really?

And you are?

Let me guess...another inexperienced expert, or do you really have the credentials to enlighten me otherwise?
If so...
How many of these dogs have you met in the fur, so to speak. How many breeders have you shared your comprehensive knowledge with, both at home, and on the international front?
How many countries have you travelled to in order to study these dogs?

It's folks such as yourself that add to these problems by believing they can solve them.

Perhaps you might try to be a bit more respectful in your next response whilst trying to explain to me why two UK breeders of the C/O refused to answer any of our enquiries.:Rage


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Mirandashell said:


> Just to go off-topic.... Stormy, you've changed your avatar! Where is Thai's face?


Buried under the blanket


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Oh right! The dark bit at the bottom is a blanket?


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Buried under the blanket


He's probably read this thread and doing his own version of a facepalm!


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sairy said:


> He's probably read this thread and doing his own version of a facepalm!


Ok that made me snort and now he is giving me funny looks :Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Jan 23, 2018)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> There is evidence that supports having bans and restrictions on certain breeds works.


Please present it then. I have been following breed bans for decades. Nowhere has it worked. I'd love to see cases where it has to see what they're doing right.



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> BSL was never intended to eliminate every bite, but to reduce serious maulings and fatal attacks. The reason overall bites go up is because of the overall increase in the dog population.


And that is where breed bans repeatedly fail. In the UK alone, fatal attacks and maulings are on the rise despite a breed ban. Just like it has happened everywhere else there have been breed bans put in place. 
And even when you account for rise in dog population, bites go up when you ban breeds.

The thing is, banning breeds gives a false sense of security that other breeds are 'safe' and people don't take intelligent precautions.


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Don't you love it when people with no experience noisily chip in with their opinion....?

I have spent many years keeping and breeding rear fanged venomous snakes.
They're not licensed. Anyone can go out and buy them and the onus is on the shop or breeder to not sell to inappropriate homes.
Just because I've never taken a bite from a Boiga doesn't make them safe. Just because I had 15 years experience in reading snake body language and using hooks and other handling equipment doesn't mean that average Joe with a corn snake should be able to go out and buy a boiga and try to keep it as a pet. Just because one of my Hydrodynastes was basically puppy tame doesn't mean they all are. Genetics is real....
Having a lurcher and a dobermann doesn't make me an auto-expert on all dog breeds, even those I've never clapped eyes on. 

I will say that there are people commenting on here regarding the (very real) dangers of LGDs who have extremely extensive first hand experience and they should be being taken seriously.
Their "anecdotal" evidence is real and tangible and spoken with far more authority than the opinion of someone on a one-man-crusade against bull breeds but yet is seemingly fine with LGDs which are far more dangerous to the public. That very opinion cheapens your view of bull breeds tbh. It shows an astonishing lack of knowledge.

I only have 2 and a half years of dog ownership under my belt so this should be taken with a good pinch of salt but in that time I've trained and worked with more dogs than most do in a lifetime. LGDs as a rule are not suitable pet dogs. I put them in the same bracket as exotic carnivores (of which I have extensive experience). It's entirely possible to keep them well. But most people aren't equiped to do so and therefore they should NOT be publicly available.


/rant


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Ok that made me snort and now he is giving me funny looks :Hilarious


Haha that needs to be the next trick you teach him!


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Katalyst said:


> Don't you love it when people with no experience noisily chip in with their opinion....?
> 
> I have spent many years keeping and breeding rear fanged venomous snakes.
> They're not licensed. Anyone can go out and buy them and the onus is on the shop or breeder to not sell to inappropriate homes.
> ...


Beautifully said


----------



## SweetJo (Oct 22, 2017)

Oh my goodness, they're holding a vigil in Hartlepool for the dog! I'm not sure what to say.....


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

SweetJo said:


> Oh my goodness, they're holding a vigil in Hartlepool for the dog! I'm not sure what to say.....


Bit OTT. I'm guessing the same people won't hold a vigil for every dog that has to be euthanised because there's simply no room for them in the shelters 

What bothers me most is the misdirected anger - there is so much bile aimed at the police, RSPCA and the vet.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Katalyst said:


> Don't you love it when people with no experience noisily chip in with their opinion....?
> 
> I have spent many years keeping and breeding rear fanged venomous snakes.
> They're not licensed. Anyone can go out and buy them and the onus is on the shop or breeder to not sell to inappropriate homes.
> ...


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

SweetJo said:


> Oh my goodness, they're holding a vigil in Hartlepool for the dog!


It is very sad; but an eleven-year-old girl drowned yesterday on her way home from school and I think her death got less coverage than this dog.


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Calvine said:


> It is very sad; but an eleven-year-old girl drowned yesterday on her way home from school and I think her death got less coverage than this dog.


Now that really is heart breaking tragic 
Her poor family.
But hey... lets gloss over that and instead all lose our shit and hold vigil over an aggressive dog that stood an ice cubes chance in hell of being successfully rehomed.

*shakes head and wanders off*


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Katalyst said:


> Now that really is heart breaking tragic
> Her poor family.
> But hey... lets gloss over that and instead all lose our shit and hold vigil over an aggressive dog that stood an ice cubes chance in hell of being successfully rehomed.
> 
> *shakes head and wanders off*


Are you psychic? How do you know the dog didn't stand a chance?


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

This is katalyst in her day job


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

It's now taken yet another twist.

I find this quite hard to believe TBH:


----------



## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

There are worse fates for a dog than a quick death, however sad the circumstances.
Just sayin'


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Are you psychic? How do you know the dog didn't stand a chance?


Are you? For someone with 0 experience of COs you seem to know an awful lot about them or think you do anyway 



simplysardonic said:


> It's now taken yet another twist.
> 
> I find this quite hard to believe TBH:


Sorry I call bull.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

> I find this quite hard to believe TBH:


Me too. It's someone who has jumped on the outrage bandwagon.


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Are you psychic? How do you know the dog didn't stand a chance?


I can't decide if your serious or being intentionally obtuse and trolling everyone but I just face-palmed so hard I can now grab things with my arse.

That is NOT a dog that stood much chance of getting a safe and capable home. Life isn't a Disney story. Not all dogs are little fluffy angelic feather dusters on legs.

You know how you feel about bull breeds? How you think they're all monsters out to murder everyone? That no one should be keeping them and they should be banned because they're dangerous
These guys are miles closer to that belief you hold than most pits are. MILES. And yet you're arguing that this dog should have been saved...

I cannot get my head around your thought process at all.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Are you psychic? How do you know the dog didn't stand a chance?


OK then, if you think you can do such a grand job why don't you offer yourself up to adopt one, or perhaps direct the rescue to the plethora of homes suitable to take on this breed?

https://www.germanshepherdrescue.co.uk/caucasian-shepherds-c-73.html


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> OK then, if you think you can do such a grand job why don't you offer yourself up to adopt one, or perhaps direct the rescue to the plethora of homes suitable to take on this breed?
> 
> https://www.germanshepherdrescue.co.uk/caucasian-shepherds-c-73.html


I'm a bit in love with Dylan although he appears to be a structural train wreck


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Katalyst said:


> I can't decide if your serious or being intentionally obtuse and trolling everyone but I just face-palmed so hard I can now grab things with my arse.
> 
> That is NOT a dog that stood much chance of getting a safe and capable home. Life isn't a Disney story. Not all dogs are little fluffy angelic feather dusters on legs.
> 
> ...


Dude it's okay. We'll just put a fluffy jumper on all bull breeds and voila!


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Katalyst said:


> I just face-palmed so hard I can now grab things with my arse.


And the award for Funniest Remark of the Day goes to........

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> I'm sorry where did I say incredibly game driven fighting breed of dog?
> 
> Dog aggression does not equal human aggression - they are different.
> 
> ...


So loving and forgiving that they regularly maul and kill people! And a quote from a pro pit organisation?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Katalyst said:


> I'm a bit in love with Dylan although he appears to be a structural train wreck


This one's my fave, looks more Carpathian than Cauc, she's like Rogue's more structurally unsound chubby sister.

https://www.germanshepherdrescue.co.uk/anna-northumberland-p-4719.html


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> So loving and forgiving that they regularly maul and kill people! And a quote from a pro pit organisation?


All you've spun is anti-bull breed agenda - just as biased as any 'pro pit organisation' :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Calvine said:


> It is very sad; but an eleven-year-old girl drowned yesterday on her way home from school and I think her death got less coverage than this dog.


If she had been needlessly shot dead by the police her death would have gotten a lot more coverage!


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> If she had been needlessly shot dead by the police her death would have gotten a lot more coverage!


Did you really just compare a dog to a child?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> It's now taken yet another twist.
> 
> I find this quite hard to believe TBH:


The RSPCA never arrive that fast!


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> The RSPCA never arrive that fast!


Unless there is TV Cameras!


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> So loving and forgiving that they regularly maul and kill people! And a quote from a pro pit organisation?


RSPCA, Dogs Trust, BVA... all want to see BSL ended. Guess they're all "Pro Pit organisations" too? Or maybe, just maybe they have the common sense to see how silly and unhelpful it really is.

Genuinely curious what your problem is with Bull breeds? I get not liking a breed - that's fine, plenty I wouldn't own, but condemning them to death is rather heartless.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> If she had been needlessly shot dead by the police her death would have gotten a lot more coverage!


You really have no filter, do you? You'll quite literally say anything to make a point


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

And nobody has answered my question. How many people have been mauled and killed by Caucasions? Pit bulls have killed at least 40 since the beginning of last year alone! Yet there are some of you saying how wrong BSL is when it pertains to pits, but will then go on about the dangers of Caucasians and how they don't belong in the UK, how they shouldn't be pets, etc. So how can you say that pit bulls (that kill more people than any other dog) make such good pets and a breed (that has killed how many?) doesn't?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And nobody has answered my question. How many people have been mauled and killed by Caucasions? Pit bulls have killed at least 40 since the beginning of last year alone! Yet there are some of you saying how wrong BSL is when it pertains to pits, but will then go on about the dangers of Caucasians and how they don't belong in the UK, how they shouldn't be pets, etc. So how can you say that pit bulls (that kill more people than any other dog) make such good pets and a breed (that has killed how many?) doesn't?


Well I remember asking you to provide the evidence, so please do


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hate to say it...

Told you so :Shifty


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And nobody has answered my question. How many people have been mauled and killed by Caucasions?* Pit bulls have killed at least 40 since the beginning of last year alone!* Yet there are some of you saying how wrong BSL is when it pertains to pits, but will then go on about the dangers of Caucasians and how they don't belong in the UK, how they shouldn't be pets, etc. So how can you say that pit bulls (that kill more people than any other dog) make such good pets and a breed (that has killed how many?) doesn't?


Really?

Can you provide evidence of this please?


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And nobody has answered my question. How many people have been mauled and killed by Caucasions? Pit bulls have killed at least 40 since the beginning of last year alone! Yet there are some of you saying how wrong BSL is when it pertains to pits, but will then go on about the dangers of Caucasians and how they don't belong in the UK, how they shouldn't be pets, etc. So how can you say that pit bulls (that kill more people than any other dog) make such good pets and a breed (that has killed how many?) doesn't?


Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Caucasians are relatively rare so statics wise you won't hear about an attack. I personally know of a mauling in Manchester which was kept on the 'down low'. If you're talking about 'Pits' in this country how many are really pits? I'd say a lot of them are nothing but bully breed mixes who happened to meet a set of criteria.

Furthermore, with the popularity of bull breeds how many are chastised for growling? Put in situations where their body language wasn't read etc? There's a lot of variables to look at here.

Now we're gonna take a look at a little thing called genetics....

Bull breeds are forgiving and people-orientated.

COs are not. In fact, COs are the opposite.

I'm gonna highlight this cause ya don't seem to be listening....

*BOTH ME AND ZAROS HAVE OWNED LIVESTOCK GUARDIANS AND ARE WELL VERSED ON THEIR BEHAVIOURS, TEMPERAMENTS, AND CHARACTERISTICS. 
*
You seem to be one of these 'save all the dogs people' and that mindsight is more of a danger than any breed out there.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse?
> 
> Caucasians are relatively rare so statics wise you won't hear about an attack. I personally know of a mauling in Manchester which was kept on the 'down low'. If you're talking about 'Pits' in this country how many are really pits? I'd say a lot of them are nothing but bully breed mixes who happened to meet a set of criteria.
> 
> ...


Oh come on!

Everyone knows these dogs will be just fine in a flat.

All they need is love...... & coconut oil.


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And nobody has answered my question. How many people have been mauled and killed by Caucasions? Pit bulls have killed at least 40 since the beginning of last year alone! Yet there are some of you saying how wrong BSL is when it pertains to pits, but will then go on about the dangers of Caucasians and how they don't belong in the UK, how they shouldn't be pets, etc. So how can you say that pit bulls (that kill more people than any other dog) make such good pets and a breed (that has killed how many?) doesn't?


How many of your [alleged] 40 deaths were ACTUALLY killed by pit bulls though? 
The big stories of dog related deaths that have hit the papers over here recently have all shown photos of generic bull breed mutts as the perpetrators. 
Most people wouldn't recognise a true pit bull if it came close enough to piss on their shoes. The public thinks all blocky headed bull types are pit bulls because that's what the media thinks. 
And the media as a whole isn't exactly renowned for being concerned with accuracies.


----------



## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> You seem to be one of these 'save all the dogs people' and that mindsight is more of a danger than any breed out there.


*Save all the dogs EXCEPT deadly deadly bullbreeds. They are evil. All other bite reports are just bull breeds in disguise.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

BlueJay said:


> *Save all the dogs EXCEPT deadly deadly bullbreeds. They are evil. All other bite reports are just bull breeds in disguise.


It's the locking jaws that do it.......


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> Oh come on!
> 
> Everyone knows these dogs will be just fine in a flat.
> 
> All they need is love...... & coconut oil.


Tumeric paste as well


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

BlueJay said:


> *Save all the dogs EXCEPT deadly deadly bullbreeds. They are evil. All other bite reports are just bull breeds in disguise.


Daaaaayam Bull breeds and their shifty disguises.

Its a cull from me :Shifty


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> deadly deadly












Ummm.
I think I broke mine :Arghh


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> It's the locking jaws that do it.......


I heard that if you stand in front of a mirror and recite "pit bulls are nanny dogs" three times, a bunch of offended mystery mutts get offended and come and murder you in your sleep.

I heard it so it must be true.


----------



## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> View attachment 342902
> 
> 
> Ummm.
> I think I broke mine :Arghh


Its only a matter of time before he snaps.
Look, he's already sampling your flavours. I'll get the police on standby.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> View attachment 342902
> 
> 
> Ummm.
> I think I broke mine :Arghh


You do realise that that sock is all that is left of the person he viciously murdered?


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> View attachment 342902
> 
> 
> Ummm.
> I think I broke mine :Arghh


It's those split eyes as well - they're evil. Soul of the devil.

That sock belonged to your neighbor. You're next.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I think I broke mine as well.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Katalyst said:


> I heard that if you stand in front of a mirror and recite "pit bulls are nanny dogs" three times, a bunch of offended mystery mutts get offended and come and murder you in your sleep.
> 
> I heard it so it must be true.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

This









Murder?

Pahahahahahahaahahaha :Mooning


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Now, what was it you posted at StormyThai?

Oh yes I remember...



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Never answered my question did you? Funny that.


Your arrogance and hypocrisy is staggering....no wait...it's crippling because you never answered my questions, did you. Funny that.:Wacky


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Mirandashell said:


> Is there evidence for that?


Sorry I have been resting most of the aafternoon and only just summoned the strength to be back on the puter
This is what Ive been able to find, with the most upto date stats, I could find, available at the moment, and stats from the same source 10 years ago

Freedom of information stats obtained by BBC news in 2007
"According to figures released in September, there are more than 1,000 pit bull terriers owned legally under the Dangerous Dogs Act in England."

Freedom of information stats obtained by BBC news in 2016
"*Dangerous dogs *
4,757
banned breeds seized by police over past three years"
thats between 2013 and 2016

Now I know the dangerous dogs seized were probably not all PB *type*, but its highly likely that the majority were

and just to point out I did say "_*allegedly*_" in my first post. which means it could be anecdotal and not backed up by stats

and btw I would love a pitbull if they ever came off the banned list, my dream dog


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> It's now taken yet another twist.
> 
> I find this quite hard to believe TBH:


 Where did you find this priceless little tale?


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

mrs phas said:


> Sorry I have been resting most of the aafternoon and only just summoned the strength to be back on the puter
> This is what Ive been able to find, with the most upto date stats, I could find, available at the moment, and stats from the same source 10 years ago
> 
> Freedom of information stats obtained by BBC news in 2007
> ...


Thanks Mrs Phas! Hope you're feeling better


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> Daaaaayam Bull breeds and their shifty disguises.
> 
> Its a cull from me :Shifty


Like mine ? Their disguise is rather good don't you think ?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Where did you find this priceless little tale?


That, my friend, was apparently floating around on Facebook, it was screen shot & shared by A. N. Other so I have no idea where it originated.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> and a breed (that has killed how many?)


I've no idea, but I'm sure you are on the point of telling us. Are you talking about in UK,. in Europe, in USA?


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> The RSPCA never arrive that fast!


 And how did a vet manage to scan the dog if it was so aggressive? Chinese whispers now, methinks.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Calvine said:


> And how did a vet manage to scan the dog if it was so aggressive? Chinese whispers now, methinks.


Indeed. Sounds like people are making up stuff now to further condemn the way the situation was handled.

Had this been a staffy or "Type dog" I doubt there would have been so much uproar, but because the dog was fluffy people seem to be completely against it being shot.

Comparing them to bull breeds is absolutely ridiculous. Bullies are totally people orientated and LGDs aren't. They are not suitable as pets as people are starting to find out - all to the detriment of the poor dogs.Rescues are already getting far too full of them because there are very few people experienced and suitable to have them, so they just can't be rehomed.

I am totally against BSL but breed bans aren't all bad.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

sorry if this has already been posted . 
Statement from the RSPCA 
https://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/..._content=HartlepoolDog&utm_campaign=Statement


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> That, my friend, was apparently floating around on Facebook, it was screen shot & shared by A. N. Other so I have no idea where it originated.


So, for the time being then, it's not an official 'other' version of events. Just some faceless individual attempting to stir up more ill feeling towards the police and the RSPCA.

Here's the puzzles for me; (a) if the dog had been missing for a couple of days why hadn't the owners reported such a serious animal missing? Pretty bloody careless/complacent of them not to considering the breed. Or maybe they just thought their teddy bear had wandered off into the woods for a picnic. 
(b)How did the couple who found the dog know it was cold? - These dogs come readily equipped to tolerate some of the most extreme of cold temperatures. For example; Our Oscar can quite happily snooze the night away in temperatures of minus 30C and still refuse to come in the next morning when we want him to because we're concerned he might be getting too cold.
But then, how remiss of me, that's purely anecdotal. :Facepalm
(b) How did the couple who found the dog know it was hungry?
Just happen to have a tin of Chum handy did they?:Shifty

Time to hunt the author down and ask them to account for such a rendering.

And whilst I'm here @LurcherGreyoundGirl as you have declined to answer any of my previous questions, am I to understand you have no first hand, real world experience of these dogs at all and are, in fact, just another armchair aficionado.:Watching

No doubt another question that is destined to go unanswered.:Meh


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Calvine said:


> And how did a vet manage to scan the dog if it was so aggressive? Chinese whispers now, methinks.


He was a supervet. He had X ray vision.


----------



## fernlady (Feb 27, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> sorry if this has already been posted .
> Statement from the RSPCA
> https://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/..._content=HartlepoolDog&utm_campaign=Statement


Statement says the dog was scanned for a microchip after the incident but no details found.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

fernlady said:


> Statement says the dog was scanned for a microchip after the incident but no details found.


So the completely unbelievable story about her being a beloved darling pet to an elderly couple is likely to have been made up!?!
Shock horror. 
If the chip hadn't been registered then unfortunately the breeder won't be found either.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Does anyone else always get an image of doddering bent over people on sticks when elderly couples are mentioned - then realise that in fact as you are in your 60s or 70s you count as elderly! I would never choose to own a dog like that but if I and my husband wanted one (and were stupid enough to get one) we could physically handle one , or I assume I could as I can hang on to a horse that is going beserk.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Does anyone else always get an image of doddering bent over people on sticks when elderly couples are mentioned - then realise that in fact as you are in your 60s or 70s you count as elderly! I would never choose to own a dog like that but if I and my husband wanted one (and were stupid enough to get one) we could physically handle one , or I assume I could as I can hang on to a horse that is going beserk.


That made me laugh more than it should have  
I'm not "elderly" yet... Only mid 40's, but I still get a shock when I realize the 90's were not just 10 years ago, and when teens talk about "old people" they're talking about people my age. Worse is when I'm surrounded by people who look and act 'old' and then I realize they're all my age! :Arghh

But yes, my mom is in her 80's and walks the neighbor's dog and has no issue handling big boisterous dogs. She has some experience too though....


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

To clarify. My first post on this thread included the question that has so far gone unanswered. Until it is answered I won't be answering any of yours.

Also, Joy Keys of the Birkett Smith animal sanctuary was on the radio last night and said that she had offered to take the dog to her sanctuary (which specializes in the breed and similar breeds) and which is also licensed to carry tranquilizers (which includes pistols, guns and edible ones). She said that her offer was rejected by the police. According to both her and a statement released by the RSPCA the vet was only consulted over the phone and a vet did not actually attend the scene.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> To clarify. My first post on this thread included the question that has so far gone unanswered. Until it is answered I won't be answering any of yours.
> 
> Also, Joy Keys of the Birkett Smith animal sanctuary was on the radio last night and said that she had offered to take the dog to her sanctuary (which specializes in the breed and similar breeds) and which is also licensed to carry tranquilizers (which includes pistols, guns and edible ones). She said that her offer was rejected by the police. According to both her and a statement released by the RSPCA the vet was only consulted over the phone and a vet did not actually attend the scene.


They are based at least 7 hours away in Dorset. If you bothered to read the RSPCA statement, you would see that there was concern that the dog could escape, so waiting for 7 hours for her to rock up is simply not acceptable.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

StormyThai said:


>


:Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> To clarify. My first post on this thread included the question that has so far gone unanswered. Until it is answered I won't be answering any of yours.


Okay...
One, how rude. This is not how one has a respectful conversation. Nor by the way do you get to dictate how others respond to you. No one owes you an answer.

Two, your question read as rhetorical to me. As in I figured you already had that answer and were pointing out that CO have not killed as many people as "a certain other breed" has.

Three, I don't know the answer to that question which is another reason I didn't answer. Do you? If so, please share your stats. Though I'm not sure what that proves. I'm sure there are fewer people killed by rattlesnakes in the UK than by dogs, that doesn't mean rattlesnakes make safer pets.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Okay...
> One, how rude. This is not how one has a respectful conversation. Nor by the way do you get to dictate how others respond to you. No one owes you an answer.
> 
> Two, your question read as rhetorical to me. As in I figured you already had that answer and were pointing out that CO have not killed as many people as "a certain other breed" has.
> ...


Bit like horses and sharks. Far fewer people are killed by sharks than horses, but I'm pretty sure a nice hack out in the countryside wouldn't be the same on a great white...


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> They are based at least 7 hours away in Dorset. If you bothered to read the RSPCA statement, you would see that there was concern that the dog could escape, so waiting for 7 hours for her to rock up is simply not acceptable.


And that's on a good day, with little traffic, no roadworks, good weather conditions etc, etc, etc.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Zaros said:


> And that's on a good day, with little traffic, no roadworks, good weather conditions etc, etc, etc.


Seems the dog wasn't too cold to wait for that though...


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> They are based at least 7 hours away in Dorset. If you bothered to read the RSPCA statement, you would see that there was concern that the dog could escape, so waiting for 7 hours for her to rock up is simply not acceptable.


And if you bothered to check your facts you would have seen it was a less than 6 hour drive. The dog had also been tethered overnight with what looks like a heavy duty lead and didn't escape! The chances of her escaping were minimal.










This is also how police in Ayr dealt with an Akita that was on the loose and that had actually bitten someone. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/specialist-police-officers-rush-reports-10260206 No lethal force was used!


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> sorry if this has already been posted .
> Statement from the RSPCA
> https://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/..._content=HartlepoolDog&utm_campaign=Statement


My issue with this statement is as follows:-

1. Was the vet actual on scene or just on the end of a telephone?
2. Why was the dog too dangerous to dart if it had been tied up for hours and had not actually managed to escape despite becoming increasingly agitated as time went on?
3. The charity that was contacted for advice according to experts at another charity has no handling experience with this breed. Why was a rescue charity with experience of the breed not contacted for their advice instead?
4. Why are local authorities not properly equipped to tranquilise animals?
5. Why is simply shooting an animal now an increasingly popular option with the police and what role does cost have in their decision making process?
6. Vets are medical experts, not experts in behaviour or training. Why was the opinion of a medical expert sought on a non medical matter?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And if you bothered to check your facts you would have seen it was a less than 6 hour drive. The dog had also been tethered overnight with what looks like a heavy duty lead and didn't escape! The chances of her escaping were minimal.
> 
> View attachment 342982
> 
> ...


You're quibbling over an hour's difference in travel time?

An Akita is not a 90kg CO!


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

cbcdesign said:


> My issue with this statement is as follows:-
> 
> 1. Was the vet actual on scene or just on the end of a telephone?
> 2. Why was the dog too dangerous to dart if it had been tied up for hours and had not actually managed to escape despite becoming increasingly agitated as time went on?
> ...


Precisely, lots of unanswered questions and I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth.

I'm not sure why we're slating the BSAS. They at least are experienced with the breed and have successfully rehabbed and rehomed LGDs.
But agreed, it's a long journey and TBH a bullet to the head is certainly not the worst way for this poor creature to go, but it still frustrates me that the police declined their offer.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> To clarify. My first post on this thread included the question that has so far gone unanswered. Until it is answered I won't be answering any of yours.
> 
> Also, Joy Keys of the Birkett Smith animal sanctuary was on the radio last night and said that she had offered to take the dog to her sanctuary (which specializes in the breed and similar breeds) and which is also licensed to carry tranquilizers (which includes pistols, guns and edible ones). She said that her offer was rejected by the police. According to both her and a statement released by the RSPCA the vet was only consulted over the phone and a vet did not actually attend the scene.


And, no doubt, had the Police handed the dog over to this woman and something had gone wrong, there would have been yet another public outcry around how they should never have risked it.

Let's face it, the Police cannot win in a situation such as this. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

There are always voices such as yours shouting loudly that they should have "done something different". Those voices aren't always quite so easily heard when asked, "exactly what"?

The Police were faced with an unknown, very large, powerful and upredictable dog. Their first duty is public safety. They did what they had to do.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sarah H said:


> I'm not sure why we're slating the BSAS


Nobody is slating them, merely pointing out the huge distance and travel time


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Nobody is slating them, merely pointing out the huge distance and travel time


 Yes sorry, wrong choice of words.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Nobody is slating them, merely pointing out the huge distance and travel time


There are other charities with handling experience of this breed in the Hartlepool area that were not contacted.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> You're quibbling over an hour's difference in travel time?
> 
> An Akita is not a 90kg CO!


Just pointing out that you were wrong and an Akita is still a large and powerful breed. Yet the police in Ayr still managed to back the dog into a van using only their shields NOT bullets!


----------



## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

According to the ONS there were three fatalities in 2015 which involved dogs. The numbers cover the years from 1981 to 2015 and the average number of dog related deaths per year during that period was about 2.2.

I couldn't find numbers for 2016 or 2017 but I'd be very interested to see reliable and accurate statistics suggesting the number of fatalities caused by dogs in the past year has been twenty times the average and more than ten times the number in 2015...

As to breeds involved I have been unable to find any remotely accurate records. Plenty of (often contradictory for the same incident) newspaper reports but nothing else.

It's also impossible to put a number on how many dogs of that "certain other type" there are in the UK. Do you consider SBTs in that? If so then in the ten year period from 2007 to 2016 there were almost 75,000 registered with the KC but there will also be all the unregistered SBTs on top of that plus the crosses and various other breeds/crosses that potentially could be "of type". The BBC did an article in 2015 (which can be seen here) about the UK's most popular breeds, with the information they used coming from 10 years worth of microchipping data from two of the largest databases. That data suggested there were around 356,000 dogs chipped as SBTs during that time.

Again, it's impossible to come up with a number for how many COs there are in the UK but I am fairly confident in stating that it's going to be an absolutely tiny fraction of the number of bull breeds and their crosses that are living in the UK.

I'd be very grateful @LurcherGreyoundGirl if you could now post the source for your claims that forty people have been killed by dogs (all of which were, I'm sure, reliably confirmed to be of pit bull type) since the start of 2017.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Rafa said:


> And, no doubt, had the Police handed the dog over to this woman and something had gone wrong, there would have been yet another public outcry around how they should never have risked it.
> 
> Let's face it, the Police cannot win in a situation such as this. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
> 
> ...


They would have tranquilized the dog and then taken her to the sanctuary. She would not have posed a danger to the public!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> Seems the dog wasn't too cold to wait for that though...


Perhaps we might have even been able to help. 

In an anecdotal sort of way.

Finnair to Birmingham airport: €200.00 
Hire car to Hartlepool: £100.00
Box of sticking plasters: £2.50 
Dog eventually escapes taking telegraph pole and area communications with it, priceless.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Just pointing out that you were wrong and an Akita is still a large and powerful breed. Yet the police in Ayr still managed to back the dog into a van using only their shields NOT bullets!


Once again, and slowly this time. An. Akita. Is. Not. A. 90kg. CO.

Just because an Akita is large and powerful, it doesn't come anywhere near to a CO. The article says that they managed to calm it down, yet that clearly wasn't happening in Hartlepool, so two totally different dogs, two totally different scenarios.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

cbcdesign said:


> There are other charities with handling experience of this breed in the Hartlepool area that were not contacted.


Why would they be contacted?
The dog was deemed too dangerous to sedate (I'm sure everyone knows that frightened stressed animals can actually fight sedation, it isn't as easy as dart dog and then the dog gently falls asleep) so why would the police then hand said dog over to a member of public? Anyone could have turned up saying they had experience for one, and what would the police do if said charity worker had untied the dog but then this scared guardian breed redirects to said human?

Seriously...the police do not want to go out and shoot dogs BUT public safety has to come first.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> They would have tranquilized the dog and then taken her to the sanctuary. She would not have posed a danger to the public!


Why is a sanctuary necessarily better than a humane death?
The world is full of uncomplicated adoptable dogs who are euthanized in obscene numbers because of lack of space. Why do we need to keep dogs who are never going to be adoptable alive just to say we kept them alive. 
What about the dog? Why do we assume the dog wants to live in a sanctuary with their movement restricted and no way of fulfilling the needs to guard and work that these dogs have? That's no life...


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> *Why would they be contacted*?
> The dog was deemed too dangerous to sedate (I'm sure everyone knows that frightened stressed *animals can actually fight sedation*, it isn't as easy as dart dog and then the dog gently falls asleep) so why would the police then hand said dog over to a member of public? Anyone could have turned up saying they had experience for one, and what would the police do if said charity worker had untied the dog but then this scared guardian breed redirects to said human?
> 
> Seriously...the police do not want to go out and shoot dogs BUT public safety has to come first.


Why would they? Because it is sensible to contact experienced handlers when dealing with this sort of situation. They can properly asses the animals behaviour and advise accordingly.
As for your "fight sedation" point, wild predators are sedated perfectly successfully, why not a domesticated pet, agitated or otherwise? Sedation has been used to cope with dangerous animals for many years now, its tried and tested.

And what about baiting some food with sedation? Was it even considered? You don't have to dart an animal to sedate it necessarily..


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> Once again, and slowly this time. An. Akita. Is. Not. A. 90kg. CO.
> 
> Just because an Akita is large and powerful, it doesn't come anywhere near to a CO. The article says that they managed to calm it down, yet that clearly wasn't happening in Hartlepool, so two totally different dogs, two totally different scenarios.


Except one was more dangerous in that the dog was actually on the loose and had bitten a person. That was resolved without lethal force! The other, the dog was already restrained, offers of help were rejected and lethal force was used!


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.......


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Why is a sanctuary necessarily better than a humane death?
> The world is full of uncomplicated adoptable dogs who are euthanized in obscene numbers because of lack of space. Why do we need to keep dogs who are never going to be adoptable alive just to say we kept them alive.
> What about the dog? Why do we assume the dog wants to live in a sanctuary with their movement restricted and no way of fulfilling the needs to guard and work that these dogs have? That's no life...


The sanctuary that offered to sedate and take the dog has a lot of ground and they are experienced with the breed! They wouldn't have adopted the dog out either if she had been deemed unsuitable for rehoming!


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> The sanctuary that offered to sedate and take the dog has a lot of ground and they are experienced with the breed! They wouldn't have adopted the dog out either if she had been deemed unsuitable for rehoming!


You didn't answer my question. 
I shall not respond to you anymore until you do. :Mooning


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.......


Spot on


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

cbcdesign said:


> Why would they? Because it is sensible to contact experienced handlers when dealing with this sort of situation. They can properly asses the animals behaviour and advise accordingly.
> As for your "fight sedation" point, wild predators are sedated perfectly successfully, why not a domesticated pet, agitated or otherwise? Sedation has been used to cope with dangerous animals for many years now, its tried and tested.
> 
> And what about baiting some food with sedation? Was it even considered? You don't have to dart an animal to sedate it necessarily..


I've seen animals fight sedation, not all wild animals are sedated successfully the first time.
Baiting food sounds lovely, but even if the dog did eat the bait (as the dog was so stressed the likelihood of her eating anything was slim) it can take hours to take effect, whilst still being stressed beyond belief - sorry but that is not in the dogs best interest at all, especially if at the end of all that she got pts anyway.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

ouesi said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> I shall not respond to you anymore until you do. :Mooning


Pathetic! As for me being rude. Pot calling the kettle black perhaps?


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Can we not make this personal please, I really don't want to lock it!


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> They would have tranquilized the dog and then taken her to the sanctuary. She would not have posed a danger to the public!


Who would have tranquilised the dog?

Who is they?

To administer a sedative, somebody would have had to approach and inject the dog.

Would you have been prepared to do that?


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I've seen animals fight sedation, not all wild animals are sedated successfully the first time.
> Baiting food sounds lovely, but even if the dog did eat the bait (as the dog was so stressed the likelihood of her eating anything was slim) it can take hours to take effect, whilst still being stressed beyond belief - sorry but that is not in the dogs best interest at all, especially if at the end of all that she got pts anyway.


Another pathetic response. The dog wasn't given the chance to be sedated! You do NOT know if sedation would have been successful or not! Also why don't you go and take this up with the BSAS since you seem to be so knowledgeable about tranquilizers.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Pathetic! As for me being rude. Pot calling the kettle black perhaps?


Yes, that was me giving you a taste of your own tactics. 
Now... can we get back to the adult conversation?
Why the need to keep a dog alive just for the sake of saying you kept the dog alive? Why is a sanctuary such a 'good' thing? Why not put the limited resources in to dogs who could easily integrate in to a pet home environment without the need for all sorts of heroics?


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Another pathetic response. The dog wasn't given the chance to be sedated! You do NOT know if sedation would have been successful or not! Also why don't you go and take this up with the BSAS since you seem to be so knowledgeable about tranquilizers.


I've asked once, please don't make this personal
I do not need to take anything up with anyone.
Maybe direct your anger towards the person that signed the poor dogs fate instead of ranting at strangers because they don't agree with you


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> The sanctuary that offered to sedate and take the dog has a lot of ground and they are experienced with the breed! They wouldn't have adopted the dog out either if she had been deemed unsuitable for rehoming!


So a large LGD could then live out the rest of it's miserable life confined in a 6' x 6' kennel?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Where did all these experienced with that breed rescues rear their head. For a start off it was thought it was a GSD cross initially and as there would be so few of these dogs in rescue it would be odd if there were specialists. Do you really think that in that situation the police are going to identify the breed and then google to see who is an 'expert' then call them to come over from several hours away while the dog suffers and the police are tied up guarding it when they could be doing their proper job. What would happen when the rescue person got bitten , which seems likely. And whoever said that there was a rescue with dart guns and sedatives - I rather doubt if a rescue would be licensed for that. It is very sad but that dog had been tied up and left for a reason and the kindest thing was to put it to sleep in the way that would stress it least which is a bullet in that situation.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yes, that was me giving you a taste of your own tactics.
> Now... can we get back to the adult conversation?
> Why the need to keep a dog alive just for the sake of saying you kept the dog alive? Why is a sanctuary such a 'good' thing? Why not put the limited resources in to dogs who could easily integrate in to a pet home environment without the need for all sorts of heroics?


An adult conversation? Like making 'jokes' about the death of this dog? Or how about posting memes and gifs? I'm not the one either who is relentlessly condoning the shooting of this dog despite the fact she could have been helped!

And once again, NONE of you know that this dog was beyond help and couldn't have lived happily on a sanctuary!


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> I've seen animals fight sedation, not all wild animals are sedated successfully the first time.
> Baiting food sounds lovely, but even if the dog did eat the bait (as the dog was so stressed the likelihood of her eating anything was slim) it can take hours to take effect, whilst still being stressed beyond belief - sorry but that is not in the dogs best interest at all, especially if at the end of all that she got pts anyway.


No but wild animals are not tethered either, this one was. All the stress incidentally was probably in no small part die to the action of the authorities trying to catch the dog with ropes and poles due to not being properly equipped to sedate the animal in the first place. This dog was probably frightened, hungry, thirsty, confused, tethered and perhaps hurting too and people were stressing him on top of that. I am not sure how we can expect the animal to calm down in that situation.

I am a softy I guess, I just don't like dogs meeting brutal ends like this. I tell you this Stormy, if I lived in Hartlepool and knew a dog like this lived in a particular house and no longer did so, I would not hesitate to call the police.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And once again, NONE of you know that this dog was beyond help and couldn't have lived happily on a sanctuary!


And YOU don't know otherwise.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Where did all these experienced with that breed rescues rear their head. For a start off it was thought it was a GSD cross initially and as there would be so few of these dogs in rescue it would be odd if there were specialists. Do you really think that in that situation the police are going to identify the breed and then google to see who is an 'expert' then call them to come over from several hours away while the dog suffers and the police are tied up guarding it when they could be doing their proper job. What would happen when the rescue person got bitten , which seems likely. And whoever said that there was a rescue with dart guns and sedatives - I rather doubt if a rescue would be licensed for that. It is very sad but that dog had been tied up and left for a reason and the kindest thing was to put it to sleep in the way that would stress it least which is a bullet in that situation.


So are you calling Joy Keys a liar? She and others from the sanctuary are fully licensed to dart animals.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And once again, NONE of you know that this dog was beyond help and couldn't have lived happily on a sanctuary!


And you don't know that she could have been saved and lived happily...you were not there so you don't know how aggressive this dog was, you have zero experience with LGD so you have no idea what these dogs are capable of when in "guard" mode - you don't know!

No one is laughing about this case...not one single person!


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> An adult conversation? Like making 'jokes' about the death of this dog? Or how about posting memes and gifs? I'm not the one either who is relentlessly condoning the shooting of this dog despite the fact she could have been helped!
> 
> And once again, NONE of you know that this dog was beyond help and couldn't have lived happily on a sanctuary!


I haven't seen anyone making jokes about the death of the dog. I'm pretty sure everyone on here unanimously feels that it was incredibly sad.

You don't KNOW that this dog would not have attacked (and possibly killed) someone.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> An adult conversation? Like making 'jokes' about the death of this dog? Or how about posting memes and gifs? I'm not the one either who is relentlessly condoning the shooting of this dog despite the fact she could have been helped!
> 
> And once again, NONE of you know that this dog was beyond help and couldn't have lived happily on a sanctuary!


I have not made jokes nor posted a single meme or gif. Try again.

I do condone sparing a dog a life of misery, yes. 
CO want to work and they want a job. A sanctuary simply can't provide that.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> And you don't know that she could have been saved and lived happily...you were not there so you don't know how aggressive this dog was, you have zero experience with LGD so you have no idea what these dogs are capable of when in "guard" mode - you don't know!
> 
> No one is laughing about this case...not one single person!


What about your 'murder' picture and Zaros' 'joke'? You know the one about flying over, car hire, plasters and the dog escaping taking the pole with it? You know that one? I can also remember Zaros 'joking' about one of her dogs eating another poster's dog. Great sense of humour Zaros has - not!


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> So are you calling Joy Keys a liar? She and others from the sanctuary are fully licensed to dart animals.


I have no idea who she is but I would be very scared if it was true that people in rescue are allowed to have weapons that even vets cannot routinely keep.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> What about your 'murder' picture and Zaros' 'joke'? You know the one about flying over, car hire, plasters and the dog escaping taking the pole with it? You know that one? I can also remember Zaros 'joking' about one of her dogs eating another poster's dog. Great sense of humour Zaros has - not!


My pictures were not relating to this case...zaros was commenting on the fact the "help" was a 6 hour drive away...nether of those were laughing about this dog being shot!


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> What about your 'murder' picture and Zaros' 'joke'? You know the one about flying over, car hire, plasters and the dog escaping taking the pole with it? You know that one? I can also remember Zaros 'joking' about one of her dogs eating another poster's dog. Great sense of humour Zaros has - not!


Zaros is a man who lives in Finland with 2 similar dogs who he has to manage very carefully and he is very knowledgable about the breed. He was not joking, just giving an example of how stupid it would be to call on someone like him who is an expert and lives a long way away.


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I have no idea who she is but I would be very scared if it was true that people in rescue are allowed to have weapons that even vets cannot routinely keep.


If you did your research the sanctuary not only takes in domestic animals, but wildlife too. In order to carry out some of their rescues, darting is required and that is why they are trained and licensed to do so. And zoo vets (not regular everyday small animal vets) are often required to carry and use tranquilizers.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Sairy said:


> I haven't seen anyone making jokes about the death of the dog. I'm pretty sure everyone on here unanimously feels that it was incredibly sad.


Absolutely. What makes me rather cross is the abandonment too. Blitz said the dog was abandoned for a reason but there is no excuse for doing so as far as I am concerned. As owners we are responsible for our dogs and that includes taking them to a vet to be euthanized if they are ill or become dangerous. Just dumping the poor animal in inexcusable.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=906837562808210


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Zaros is a man who lives in Finland with 2 similar dogs who he has to manage very carefully and he is very knowledgable about the breed. He was not joking, just giving an example of how stupid it would be to call on someone like him who is an expert and lives a long way away.


The sanctuary wasn't a long way away! It was only several hours away! And making a 'joke' like that in light of what happened is in very poor taste!


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cbcdesign said:


> Absolutely. What makes me rather cross is the abandonment too. Blitz said the dog was abandoned for a reason but there is no excuse for doing so as far as I am concerned. As owners we are responsible for our dogs and that includes taking them to a vet to be euthanized if they are ill or become dangerous. Just dumping the poor animal in inexcusable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely. The only person who needs to be blamed for the way the dog was treated and killed is the owner. I think w are all agreed on that one. A total disgrace and I hope they get found and prosecuted.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Absolutely. The only person who needs to be blamed for the way the dog was treated and killed is the owner. I think w are all agreed on that one. A total disgrace and I hope they get found and prosecuted.


Yep if that is what happened, absolutely.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> NONE of you know that this dog was beyond help and couldn't have lived happily on a sanctuary!


But you do?:Facepalm

I have nothing else to add and anything I might, could very easily be regarded as purely anecdotal.:Meh


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> If you did your research the sanctuary not only takes in domestic animals, but wildlife too. In order to carry out some of their rescues, darting is required and that is why they are trained and licensed to do so. And zoo vets (not regular everyday small animal vets) are often required to carry and use tranquilizers.


Why would I want to do research into a sanctuary I have no interest in. Of course zoo vets have dart guns. Actually I worked for one once.



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> The sanctuary wasn't a long way away! It was only several hours away! And making a 'joke' like that in light of what happened is in very poor taste!


Several hours is not good enough as well as being downright cruel to keep the dog in that state for several more hours it would be extremely cruel to have subjected a pet dog to living as a wild animal in a sanctuary.

Try directing your vitriol at the owner who abandoned the dog instead of at the professionals who had to make a very difficult decision and carry it out.


----------



## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

You have to wonder if the people who are up in arms and holding vigils about this incident, would be doing the same if this dog was a SBT type. Or indeed, one of the many dogs that get destroyed in this country every year. Where are the vigils for them?

No doubt, if the police had waited for a charity to show up or whatever and a member of the public got injured, they would have been slated for not taking enough action.

Whilst it's devastating that this poor dog had to be shot dead, the onus is entirely on the human who abandoned this dog. I wonder if the people saying that the dog should have been saved, would be willing to go and get this aggressive dog off the post themselves. I certainly wouldn't.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Great sense of humour Zaros has!


Why thank you. I'm touched.

I hope you'll continue to find many of my future posts entertaining.:Smug


----------



## MrJsk (Mar 14, 2014)

I have seen this story going around on facebook.

How awful, heartbreaking! I have no words


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

And by the way the dog was shot twice, the first bullet didn't kill her. Humane indeed!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I can also remember Zaros 'joking' about one of her dogs eating another poster's dog.


:Wideyed


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Why is a sanctuary necessarily better than a humane death?
> The world is full of uncomplicated adoptable dogs who are euthanized in obscene numbers because of lack of space. Why do we need to keep dogs who are never going to be adoptable alive just to say we kept them alive.
> What about the dog? Why do we assume the dog wants to live in a sanctuary with their movement restricted and no way of fulfilling the needs to guard and work that these dogs have? That's no life...





Rafa said:


> So a large LGD could then live out the rest of it's miserable life confined in a 6' x 6' kennel?


 It would depend on how good the sanctuary is and what the dog needs . 
I agree to a certain extent about not keeping dogs long term in rescues but that is our opinion and I don't think it comes into the decision as to whether to shoot a dog or not .


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> The sanctuary wasn't a long way away! It was only several hours away! And making a 'joke' like that in light of what happened is in very poor taste!


Oh grow up, for Christ sake. If you're such the expert you claim to be, then why wasn't your valuable services called upon.
After all, Livingston to Hartlepool is only a 3.5 hour drive.

And for the record, last time I looked in my pants, evidence showed I was a male.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

There is a large dog sanctuary close to where I live.

The public are at liberty to walk around the kennels, which are all outdoor fronted, and look at the dogs for rehoming.

Around the back of the building, in a small courtyard, they have a group of kennels, occupied by dogs deemed unfit for rehoming, usually because they are too anxious or aggressive. The public is not allowed down there. One Kennel Employee cares for them and they are never walked. The Sanctuary has many volunteer dog walkers, but this group of dogs never come out of their kennels. If they need a Vet, he comes to them. They are kept clean, fed and watered and that is it.

Any of us who has ever sat in a hospital waiting room, long past our appointment time and staring over and over again at the notices on the board can appreciate the mind blowing boredom these dogs must suffer, day after day and week after week.

It must be especially hard for those dogs bred to work, with instincts to be outside, doing a job.

Condemning a dog such as a CO to such an existence, just so someone can congratulate themselves, "I saved his life" is not an act of compassion or kindness, IMO.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Canine K9 said:


> You have to wonder if the people who are up in arms and holding vigils about this incident, would be doing the same if this dog was a SBT type.


In the same circumstances yes I think people would still be up in arms. The method in which the dog was killed is, in my opinion, what is upsetting people. Had the dog been restrained or tranquilised then PTS in the manner we are accustomed I doubt there would be so much outrage and complaints being made. We are simply not accustomed to dogs being shot. I know of a local man who shoots his dogs ( and others if requested) he believes that is kinder than a vet administering drugs, lots of people disagree and he has been reported several times because they don`t like his method of PTS. Of course they are people who may agree more readily agree that a bull breed showing a huge amount of aggression should be destroyed but I believe most of those would still be unhappy if it was shot.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> In the same circumstances yes I think people would still be up in arms. The method in which the dog was killed is, in my opinion, what is upsetting people. Had the dog been restrained or tranquilised then PTS in the manner we are accustomed I doubt there would be so much outrage and complaints being made. We are simply not accustomed to dogs being shot. I know of a local man who shoots his dogs ( and others if requested) he believes that is kinder than a vet administering drugs, lots of people disagree and he has been reported several times because they don`t like his method of PTS. Of course they are people who may agree more readily agree that a bull breed showing a huge amount of aggression should be destroyed but I believe most of those would still be unhappy if it was shot.


erm, a lot of dogs have been shot when the police are called in after an attack. Do you really think it is kinder to totally stress a dog out trying sedate it and control it and then put it to sleep or keep out of its space so it is as calm as it can be and shoot it.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

3dogs2cats said:


> In the same circumstances yes I think people would still be up in arms. The method in which the dog was killed is, in my opinion, what is upsetting people. Had the dog been restrained or tranquilised then PTS in the manner we are accustomed I doubt there would be so much outrage and complaints being made. We are simply not accustomed to dogs being shot. * I know of a local man who shoots his dogs ( and others if requested) he believes that is kinder than a vet administering drugs, lots of people disagree and he has been reported several times because they don`t like his method of PTS*. Of course they are people who may agree more readily agree that a bull breed showing a huge amount of aggression should be destroyed but I believe most of those would still be unhappy if it was shot.


I would suggest that man is deluded. If legal I suspect he would not think that is acceptable way to help a loved one in a lot of pain with a terminal illness pass on. Its violent, bloody and therefore uncaring as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

To be clear, I think it's awful the dog was shot. 
But that doesn't mean I fault those who made that decision, in fact I feel for the officer who had to do it, I'm sure it was a horrible thing for the officer as well. 

I think it's awful that the owners left the dog to his fate instead of doing the right thing by the dog and return him to his breeder or at the very least having the balls to euthanize the dog themselves. 
I think it's awful that the breeder let this dog go to an unsuitable home and is breeding dogs for $$ without considering the welfare of the individual dogs and breed as a whole. 
I think it's awful that the breeder was not available to help when the dog proved to be too much for the home he was in. 
I think it's awful that people are taking on dogs without understanding the potential and the responsibility. 

That the dog was shot is just the very tip of the iceberg in what was wrong with this whole scenario, and focusing on that small part of it is unhelpful at best.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cbcdesign said:


> I would suggest that man is deluded. If legal I suspect he would not think that is acceptable way to help a loved one in a lot of pain with a terminal illness pass on. Its violent, bloody and therefore uncaring as far as I am concerned.


I would disagree. Taking a dog to the vet to be put to sleep is very stressful. Even getting the vet to come to the house is stressful. Giving your dog something nice to eat and holding a gun to its head would be heartbreaking but far less stressful. It would illegal to shoot other people's dogs though I do know farmers that have done it. Just to clarify, I would be far too much of a coward to do it and mine have always been done at the vets.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I would disagree. Taking a dog to the vet to be put to sleep is very stressful. Even getting the vet to come to the house is stressful. Giving your dog something nice to eat and holding a gun to its head would be heartbreaking but far less stressful. It would illegal to shoot other people's dogs though I do know farmers that have done it. Just to clarify, I would be far too much of a coward to do it and mine have always been done at the vets.


Blowing a dogs brains out with a shot gun is less stressful than taking a dog to a vet where he or she is put to sleep gently with a barbiturate! Seriously?
I n this regard we are reading different books, never mind being on different pages.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Blitz said:


> erm, a lot of dogs have been shot when the police are called in after an attack. Do you really think it is kinder to totally stress a dog out trying sedate it and control it and then put it to sleep or keep out of its space so it is as calm as it can be and shoot it.


Erm, no that is not what I said. I was merely giving an opinion on what I believe is the main reason behind the outrage, I made no comment on if it was kinder to sedate or not, just observing that on the whole the public dislike the idea of dogs being shot thus the many complaints being made.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> Blowing a dogs brains out with a shot gun is less stressful than taking a dog to a vet where he or she is put to sleep gently with a barbiturate! Seriously?
> I n this regard we are reading different books, never mind being on different pages.


Assuming the dog is scared of the vet? Sure. 
There are situations where it is indeed more humane to end it right there, at the moment, quickly. And it is possible to do it with a rifle or proper caliber handgun. 
Our own human sensibilities sometimes get in the way of what is truly best for the animal....


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

@LurcherGreyoundGirl

Here is some perspective for you. This is Bear. Bear was an entire male Caucasian who when fully mature weighed in at over 10 stone. He was imported from Eastern Europe where he was sold onto a first time dog owner before coming to live with me.

I had to change my entire existence to accommodate this dog and his story isn't a one off. So many of his breed end up in similar situations and what we seen with this particular CO is the tip of a very dangerous ice berg.

Do I agree with shooting this dog? No. I wish it's passing had been easier.

Was PTS the right option? Absolutely.

Stop kidding yourself that LGB have a place in pet homes. They don't. They're not an 'easy' breed.

You're doing these breeds a huge disservice.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

3dogs2cats said:


> Erm, no that is not what I said. I was merely giving an opinion on what I believe is the main reason behind the outrage, I made no comment on if it was kinder to sedate or not, just observing that on the whole the public dislike the idea of dogs being shot thus the many complaints being made.


I think you are right, It is the violence and the possibility of the dog feeling a huge amount of pain in its last moments that are so appalling to many including me.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

We find it unpalatable to shoot an animal, but for some, yes it is a kinder option.

When someone points a gun at an animal, it doesn't know it's life is about to end and it's over in a second.

For dogs who become stressed by a visit to the Vet, they actually die in a state of fear and stress. Their final minutes are not peaceful.


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I don't know if someone has already said this, but according to the Gazette

"Police have responded to claims a dog shot dead by police was a "loving family dog" belonging to an elderly couple.

A post circulating on Facebook says the owners had been traced from a microchip following the death of a dog which was found tied to a telegraph post.

But a Cleveland Police spokesman said today the owner is yet to be traced, and confirmed although the dog was microchipped details had been unable to be obtained from it.

The German Shepherd-type dog was found tied to a post in Hartlepool after reportedly being abandoned by its owner on Sunday.

A decision was made to shoot the animal following a six-hour operation by Cleveland Police officers who tried to rescue the animal which became "extremely aggressive and unapproachable."

The dog was microchipped, but because the owner had failed to register the chip, the force has been unable to trace them ."


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Assuming the dog is scared of the vet? Sure.
> There are situations where it is indeed more humane to end it right there, at the moment, quickly. And it is possible to do it with a rifle or proper caliber handgun.
> Our own human sensibilities sometimes get in the way of what is truly best for the animal....


No, that is not what Blitz said. The stress mentioned was the owner suffering stress having to take the dog to a vet and the shooting being preferable to avoid that stress. 
Your example is a good one but a very rare one in my opinion. Dogs are often scared of going to the vets but not of all vets per say. There are cultural differences at play here too. In your country guns are a normal part of life for many, they are nothing like normal in the UK and the vast majority would not even consider shooting a pet acceptable in any circumstance.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Rafa said:


> We find it unpalatable to shoot an animal, but for some, yes it is a kinder option.
> 
> When someone points a gun at an animal, it doesn't know it's life is about to end and it's over in a second.
> 
> For dogs who become stressed by a visit to the Vet, they actually die in a state of fear and stress. Their final minutes are not peaceful.


That's what home visits were invented for.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> Your example is a good one but a very rare one in my opinion. Dogs are often scared of going to the vets but not of all vets per say. There are cultural differences at play here too. In your country guns are a normal part of life for many, they are nothing like normal in the UK and the vast majority would not even consider shooting a pet acceptable in any circumstance.


I'm not sure what culture has to do with the point that shooting a dog can indeed be a humane option. Just because you have a cultural sensitivity to guns and don't find them acceptable, doesn't mean a dog in pain or fear cares one iota.

And again, focusing all this outrage on the dog being shot seems misguided to me. The circumstances leading up to this point are where the outrage and emphasis should be IMO.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cbcdesign said:


> That's what home visits were invented for.


But, for this particular dog, that was not an option.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

cbcdesign said:


> I would suggest that man is deluded. If legal I suspect he would not think that is acceptable way to help a loved one in a lot of pain with a terminal illness pass on. Its violent, bloody and therefore uncaring as far as I am concerned.


He has been reported enough times, apparently doing nothing wrong. I most definitely would not want my dog to end their life in that way I would rather hold them in my arms but I have to say I`ve spoken to people who have asked him to perform this `service` and they have said they genuinely believe they made the best decision for their dog.



cbcdesign said:


> There are cultural differences at play here too. In your country guns are a normal part of life for many, they are nothing like normal in the UK and the vast majority would not even consider shooting a pet acceptable in any circumstance.


That is exactly it, that is why the man I`m referring to upsets people and why so many people are outraged about the poor dog that was shot on Sunday.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Rafa said:


> But, for this particular dog, that was not an option.


Not all possible options were explored in this dogs case hence the sense of outrage, particularly I note among people who were there and witnessed the whole sorry saga.
Lets keep in mind that they could not sedate the animal because they did not have the equipment to do so and would not call in people who did!


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Actually shocking what is going round of FB, people are blaming the wrong people - it's not the Police, Dog warden, Vet, Dog rescue, or RSPCA. People demanding investigations. 

It's the owner and breeder that put the dog in the position to be shot and killed.

Well done to the rescues out there - I couldn't do it, every weekend I go walk a few dogs at a rescue, take some food and it breaks my heart seeing the dogs in there.

I actually looked at BSAS rescue - dogs have kennels/pens. Lots of dogs, lots of barking - that isn't life for a dog, it's bad enough as a temporary measure let alone for the entire life of the dog  No dog deserves a life stuck in a kennel/pen, surrounded by dogs barking. 

They seem to try and rehabilitate only dogs not deemed suitable for rescue, dog's with 'bad bite history', 'bad guarding issues', dogs terrified of people - if they can't rehabilitate them then they live their lives at the 'sanctuary'.

I'm sorry, not every dog can, or even, should be saved - if it were Lily, if she had severe behaviour issues that meant she couldn't be a happy pet dog, I'd much rather she had a quick death than languish in kennels for years.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> *I'm not sure what culture has to do with the point that shooting a dog can indeed be a humane option*. Just because you have a cultural sensitivity to guns and don't find them acceptable, doesn't mean a dog in pain or fear cares one iota.
> 
> And again, focusing all this outrage on the dog being shot seems misguided to me. The circumstances leading up to this point are where the outrage and emphasis should be IMO.


Perhaps that too is because of cultural differences.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cbcdesign said:


> Blowing a dogs brains out with a shot gun is less stressful than taking a dog to a vet where he or she is put to sleep gently with a barbiturate! Seriously?
> I n this regard we are reading different books, never mind being on different pages.


Blowing a dogs brains out only worries the person doing it, not the dog. Taking a dog to the vet is very stressful for the dog.



cbcdesign said:


> No, that is not what Blitz said. The stress mentioned was the owner suffering stress having to take the dog to a vet and the shooting being preferable to avoid that stress.
> Your example is a good one but a very rare one in my opinion. Dogs are often scared of going to the vets but not of all vets per say. There are cultural differences at play here too. In your country guns are a normal part of life for many, they are nothing like normal in the UK and the vast majority would not even consider shooting a pet acceptable in any circumstance.


Of course it was not the owner's stress I was talking about. What rubbish. Far more stressful for the owner if they shoot their dog.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> It would depend on how good the sanctuary is and what the dog needs .
> I agree to a certain extent about not keeping dogs long term in rescues but that is our opinion and I don't think it comes into the decision as to whether to shoot a dog or not .


BSAS have got CO & LGD experience, I know Joy via FB & she does know her stuff.

They have a unique setup & specialise in taking in dogs that are unrehomeable, & unlike some of the 'no kill' rescues I've seen they don't just keep them in kennels but have an active rehab programme & the dogs have enriched lives.

I'm surprised certain participants on this thread approve, seeing as a high proportion of the residents are of the dreaded bull breed persuasion.....


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Blowing a dogs brains out only worries the person doing it, not the dog. Taking a dog to the vet is very stressful for the dog.
> 
> Of course it was not the owner's stress I was talking about. What rubbish. Far more stressful for the owner if they shoot their dog.


You said quite clearly and I quote "I would disagree. Taking a dog to the vet to be put to sleep is very stressful."
If you don't write clearly you cannot reprimand somebody for not understanding what you are trying to say!


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Just because something isn't nice to witness doesn't magically make it cruelty.

A well placed bullet IS instant. It just looks more shocking than a syringe of blue juice.
Whilst I wouldn't pretend to know that this poor dog received a well placed shot (or that the first bullet didn't kill it...I expect that the second bullet was just to make sure) I'm confident that said bullet was a damnsight less stressful than being tied to a post with people trying to approach and restrain and certainly less stressful than being manhandled. 
Suggesting oral sedatives is ridiculous. Even strong sedatives such as ACP can be incredibly slow to take effect and I have seen plenty of dogs fight a sedative. You seem to think that dart guns are a common thing. I can assure you that not all zoos carry them. I'm surprised any of them do given that the sedatives are POMv and require a qualified person to administer.

To @LurcherGreyoundGirl, I presume that your obnoxious vitriol means that you will be first in line to go and collect a potentially lethal dog the next time something like this happens? Which it will.
If you are so capable, get your name on every rescues list as "the girl that can take the monster guardian breeds". 
If you have the experience and skill required to safely cater for these dogs, go out and home one of the ones currently rotting in a shelter.

And if you're not in the position to help, don't have the experience to help, kindly put a sock in it and stop arguing with people that actually are involved and knowledgeble. 
Honestly, all you've achieved is making yourself look like a bratty child that will argue just for the sake of it. 
There is nothing wrong with having a differing opinion. We're not all going to agree all of the time. 
And that's fine. 
But for the love of glob, take heed of those with vast experience in the matter being debated and stop looking at the world through rose tinted glasses.
I think until you've worked with a truly difficult or dangerous dog, it's hard to understand what all the fuss is about.
I've worked with exotics for years, I've worked with some very difficult dogs, I deal with aggressive dogs on a near enough daily basis... but you couldn't pay me to have gone and untied that dog.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cbcdesign said:


> You said quite clearly and I quote "I would disagree. Taking a dog to the vet to be put to sleep is very stressful."
> If you don't write clearly you cannot reprimand somebody for not understanding what you are trying to say!


Yes, that is what I said but you do not have to be genius to realise I meant for the dog! How on earth could you imagine it is less stressful for the owner to shoot the dog than to go to the vet.

Your average pet owner does not have the facilities to shoot a dog and would not be able to do it whatever. I would never do it because I am coward and would rather make the poor vet put the dog to sleep. But I would never decry someone competent with both dogs and guns who did it that way. It is horrible to see (never seen a dog shot but have seen plenty of other animals). Sometimes the eyes pop out which is foul, but the animal is instantly dead and so does not care.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Yes, that is what I said but *you do not have to be genius to realise I meant for the dog*! How on earth could you imagine it is less stressful for the owner to shoot the dog than to go to the vet.
> 
> Your average pet owner does not have the facilities to shoot a dog and would not be able to do it whatever. I would never do it because I am coward and would rather make the poor vet put the dog to sleep. But I would never decry someone competent with both dogs and guns who did it that way. It is horrible to see (never seen a dog shot but have seen plenty of other animals). Sometimes the eyes pop out which is foul, but the animal is instantly dead and so does not care.


I don't second guess what people say Blitz, I am not a mind reader and you are a farmer too! I am sure you have lots of experience of having to despatch animals which makes your comment perfectly feasible if you stop to think about it for a moment! Your rudeness is uncalled for frankly!


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> Perhaps that too is because of cultural differences.


You're being rather obtuse about this. Culture doesn't make something humane or not. The animal doesn't feel any pain or fear with a well placed bullet. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you enguin


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cbcdesign said:


> I don't second guess what people say Blitz, I am not a mind reader and you are a farmer too! I am sure you have lots of experience of having to despatch animals which makes your comment perfectly feasible if you stop to think about it for a moment! Your rudeness is uncalled for frankly!


But you did second guess what I said. I admit I was not totally clear but it could read either way and you chose to read it in a way that made out I was totally unfeeling towards the dog . And I have not been rude to you, how do you make that one out.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

All the debating, arguing, 'eyewitness statements' sharing, finger pointing & hand wringing isn't going to bring the dog back.

If only so much energy could be focused on finding whoever was responsible for letting her down so badly.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> You're being rather obtuse about this. *Culture doesn't make something humane or not*. The animal doesn't feel any pain or fear with a well placed bullet. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you enguin


I think you are overlooking hugely the role culture plays in shaping a peoples behaviour.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> All the debating, arguing, 'eyewitness statements' sharing, finger pointing & hand wringing isn't going to bring the dog back.
> 
> If only so much energy could be focused on finding whoever was responsible for letting her down so badly.


I very much hope every possible means is going to be used to track down the owner and breeder of this poor dog. I hope this will not just be considered closed once the investigation into discharging a firearms has been carried out and the public complaints dealt with.


----------



## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

Darting is not an instant process. I would argue that if you are darting to put the animal to sleep when a clean shot is available, you're taking the wrong option. An animal that is darted will feel pain as they are hit and it could take them a while to go out. Particularly terrible for an animal that is already distressed. A good shot with a bullet would be instant. The animal's final conscious moments would be at a stress level no higher than they were beforehand.

It was a terrible situation and at that point, it was really a case of trying to limit the extent of the suffering of the animal. I don't think they made the wrong decision.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> All the debating, arguing, 'eyewitness statements' sharing, finger pointing & hand wringing isn't going to bring the dog back.
> 
> *If only so much energy could be focused on finding whoever was responsible for letting her down so badly*.


SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> I think you are overlooking hugely the role culture plays in shaping a peoples behaviour.


Perhaps you and I are not meaning the same thing when we use the word humane...

I'm really at a loss to figure out what you're trying to accomplish. 
It seems like you're trying desperately to be outraged by the fact that the dog was shot. Yes, that's awful, but the real outrage is everything that led up to the dog being abandoned, tied to a pole and leaving essentially innocent bystanders to have to make an awful decision.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Blitz said:


> But you did second guess what I said. I admit I was not totally clear but it could read either way and you chose to read it in a way that made out I was totally unfeeling towards the dog . And I have not been rude to you, how do you make that one out.


"Of course it was not the owner's stress I was talking about. What rubbish."
"that is what I said but you do not have to be genius to realise I meant for the dog"

Both pretty blunt comments, the first suggesting I cannot read, the second implying my intelligence is lacking.

I will accept that it was not your intention to insult me but please bare in mind what you do for a living and what you post before being quite so dismissive of a persons response to your comments.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!


I'll get Brian Blessed with a megaphone to say it, should be able to hear it in Australia then


----------



## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

ouesi said:


> To be clear, I think it's awful the dog was shot.
> But that doesn't mean I fault those who made that decision, in fact I feel for the officer who had to do it, I'm sure it was a horrible thing for the officer as well.
> 
> I think it's awful that the owners left the dog to his fate instead of doing the right thing by the dog and return him to his breeder or at the very least having the balls to euthanize the dog themselves.
> ...


Well said Ouesi.

I feel massive sympathy for the Police officer who had to perform this awful shooting. We should be focussing on those officers and vets involved they must be incredibly traumatised.

We repeatedly ask our vets to end the life of our animals and as many have said it's not always to end the physical suffering of an animal far too often it is because these animals have no place or future in our society. It's no wonder that Vets top many of the statistics for suicide and Police officers aren't far behind.

As for those deluded individuals who are holding a vigil for this dog they disgust me if you are distressed and yes the whole thing is distressing then actively do something to help suffering animals bring attention to what a waste of time the microchip law is as this particular dogs microchip proves. Use the publicity to bring attention to the fact that if we had a law that required scanning and checking of microchip registration it would help trace those abandoning animals like this poor dog.

If you are outraged use it productively instead of attacking those who were left cleaning up the mess left by the disgusting persons who take part in dog fighting, steal family dogs and abandon poor dogs like the one we are talking about.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> but please bare in mind what you do for a living


I'm sorry what does Blitz's job have to do with anything?


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I'm sorry what does Blitz's job have to do with anything?


Wow!


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> *Perhaps you and I are not meaning the same thing when we use the word humane...*
> 
> I'm really at a loss to figure out what you're trying to accomplish.
> It seems like you're trying desperately to be outraged by the fact that the dog was shot. Yes, that's awful, but the real outrage is everything that led up to the dog being abandoned, tied to a pole and leaving essentially innocent bystanders to have to make an awful decision.


Possibly not.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I'm sorry what does Blitz's job have to do with anything?


I was just trying to fathom that out.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Rafa said:


> I was just trying to fathom that out.


Think about it, it will come to you.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh, I think I get what you're saying. I don't need to think about it.

Are you really suggesting that because Blitz is a farmer she's callous or hard when it comes to animals?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rafa said:


> Oh, I think I get what you're saying. I don't need to think about it.
> 
> Are you really suggesting that because Blitz is a farmer she's callous or hard when it comes to animals?


Thanks!


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> Wow!





cbcdesign said:


> Think about it, it will come to you.


Wow what?
Weren't you the one saying you're not a mind reader and you don't second guess what people post? 
So... I really don't get it. What does being a farmer have to do with this conversation? I really don't know what you're getting at....


----------



## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Katalyst said:


> Just because something isn't nice to witness doesn't magically make it cruelty.
> 
> A well placed bullet IS instant. It just looks more shocking than a syringe of blue juice.
> Whilst I wouldn't pretend to know that this poor dog received a well placed shot (or that the first bullet didn't kill it...I expect that the second bullet was just to make sure) I'm confident that said bullet was a damnsight less stressful than being tied to a post with people trying to approach and restrain and certainly less stressful than being manhandled.
> ...


Don't tell me to put a sock in it! And I am behaving like a 'bratty child' because I happen to know (not just think) that this dog could have at least been given a chance and because I dare to question the almighty authority of those who are basing their opinions on anecdotal evidence? Also because I dare to suggest that there are also double standards at play here?

Oh and don't say that I am spouting 'obnoxious vitriol' either. At least I'm not the one siding with a bunch of trigger happy cops and at least I'm not the one posting stupid memes and gifs, making jokes or proclaiming this dog would have been miserable in a sanctuary (you dammed well don't know that)!

And there was a person who takes on these 'monster guardian breeds', who is knowledgeable and vastly experienced and who offered to help, but her offer was shunned in favour of bullets!

What a nasty bunch you are for saying that this dog is better off dead than to at least been given a chance!


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2018)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> What a nasty bunch you are for saying that this dog is better off dead than to at least been given a chance!


And yet that is exactly how you react to pitbulls. You'd rather see them killed in obscene numbers from breed bans that don't even give individual dogs a chance.
Do you not see?


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Don't tell me to put a sock in it! And I am behaving like a 'bratty child' because I happen to know (not just think) that this dog could have at least been given a chance and because I dare to question the almighty authority of those who are basing their opinions on anecdotal evidence? Also because I dare to suggest that there are also double standards at play here?
> 
> Oh and don't say that I am spouting 'obnoxious vitriol' either. At least I'm not the one siding with a bunch of trigger happy cops and at least I'm not the one posting stupid memes and gifs, making jokes or proclaiming this dog would have been miserable in a sanctuary (you dammed well don't know that)!
> 
> ...


Ah but yet you KNOW it could have been placed in a pet home. 
You KNOW it would have been happy in a shelter.
You KNOW it was able to ignore generations of selectively bred wiring. 
Does this make YOU the almighty authority?

You've missed every point that has been made. You throw temper tantrums because we don't agree and you'e not been able to adequately back up any of your arguments.

Please, please go and work with some serious livestock guardians or even a seriously human aggressive mongrel and then tell me you think every dog can be saved. 
Go and watch a flock guardian doing the job it is wired to do and then tell me that dog belongs in a pet home.

At this point, I'm pretty confident that you're just trolling and enjoying the argument.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I happen to know (not just think) that this dog could have at least been givepn a chance


How do you know?

You don't.

You do need to try and gain some perspective here. You're not making any sense.

The ideal outcome is not always possible in a scenario such as this.

The Police are faced with a very big dog, becoming increasingly more aggressive and threatening. They're not canine behaviourists, they're simply Policeman who have been called to a very unusual situation.

How very easy for you and many other hysterics to begin screeching about all of the wonderful options there may have been. They had no options.

You seem to have vast knowledge, not only about LGDs and how they should be handled, but about Bull Breeds too.

If you have such an insight, why not put it to good use, instead of alienating as many people as you can on a Pet Forum?

Go and volunteer your services in a Sanctuary instead of vilifying those who were actually in situ instead of sitting in front of a keyboard.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> At least I'm not the one posting stupid memes and gifs, making jokes or proclaiming this dog would have been miserable in a sanctuary


Time for you to stop feeding that stallion recreational substances and climb down from your high horse.
At least we're not the ones proclaiming to be an all seeing, all knowing God. Goddess in your case.

Long before this incident ever saw the light of day, I've always maintained that this breed, its close relatives and their, fool's idea, mixes DO NOT BELONG IN ENGLAND. There is no rightful place for them there.
Perhaps your energies might be better spent by campaigning against those who breed and sell these 'off the shelf' guardians to anyone with cash in their pockets, instead of officiously barking up the wrong trees.

Who knows, perhaps one day you too might have your name up in lights, LurcherGreyhoundGirl is Ovcharka Woman. Supreme guardian of the guardian.

Maybe you could get those nice people down at Marvel Comics to help draw up the design to a costume for you.

But please, nothing that resembles Chewbacca from Star Wars because, somehow, I don't think people would take you seriously.:Facepalm


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I agree with @simplysardonic, far more energy needs to be focused on finding the person who abandoned the dog and throwing the book at him. They are the ones at fault here since if the dog wasn't tied up there in the first place this whole sorry situation wouldn't of happened. I think its terrible the dog was shot as well, however I do not blame the police for doing so. Yes other options could of worked but its done now, at least the poor dog isn't suffering anymore. I do think if they had waited for the people from the sanctuary to arrive then there's a high chance the dog could of gotten even more distressed, plus the addition of more people. I do feel really bad for the person who had to shoot as well, think about how hard that must of been. I'm pretty sure anyone with half a heart would be affected by that


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> All the debating, arguing, 'eyewitness statements' sharing, finger pointing & hand wringing isn't going to bring the dog back.
> 
> If only so much energy could be focused on finding whoever was responsible for letting her down so badly.


What i dont quite understand is this dog wasn't a little thing to hide away.

The neighbours/friends/family of the owner would have known they had this great big dog, which is now gone ..... REPORT THEM !!

I love my family so very much, i would do pretty much anything for any one of them, but i would never forgive/forget/cover up such abuse.

As this thread now appears on the first page if you google search 'dog shot in hartlepoole' i would beg any person who comes here to read and knows anything, to please report them to the police.

If you know something and do nothing about it, then you are just as guilty as they are IMO


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Boxerluver30 said:


> I agree with @simplysardonic, far more energy needs to be focused on finding the person who abandoned the dog and throwing the book at him. *They are the ones at fault here since if the dog wasn't tied up there in the first place this whole sorry situation wouldn't of happened.* I think its terrible the dog was shot as well, however I do not blame the police for doing so. Yes other options could of worked but its done now, at least the poor dog isn't suffering anymore. I do think if they had waited for the people from the sanctuary to arrive then there's a high chance the dog could of gotten even more distressed, plus the addition of more people. I do feel really bad for the person who had to shoot as well, think about how hard that must of been. I'm pretty sure anyone with half a heart would be affected by that


Whilst what you say is true there have been lots of cases when dogs have been tied up and abandoned, found by caring members of the public and taken to rescue. Perhaps the owners assumed that their dog would have a similar fate.

This doesn't not excuse what they did, it is appalling to abandon a dog.


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

cbcdesign said:


> Whilst what you say is true there have been lots of cases when dogs have been tied up and abandoned, found by caring members of the public and taken to rescue. Perhaps the owners assumed that their dog would have a similar fate.
> 
> This doesn't not excuse what they did, it is appalling to abandon a dog.


Maybe yes. They may have not been aware how bad an idea that was to do with an LGD. Or maybe they were fully aware. We won't know unless they are caught by police and their motives for tying the dog up there In the first place made clear. Anything else at this point is pure speculation

Agreed that it doesn't excuse what they did to the dog


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

At the end of the day unless people were there I don't think they can fathom the situation. The public is very quick to scream outrage but you can bet that if they were faced with the task of trying to approach, tame, and control a 60+kg guardian breed with a strong dislike of strangers, they'd run a mile. The average dog owner can't control a Cocker Spaniel sized dog never mind a Caucasian. Sadly as always a lot of people think that their magical skills could save the day (like the "omg all dogs LOVE me!!" idiots....), usually while sitting behind a keyboard having never experienced nothing of the sort.....

I think this is just another very sad example of what happens when you bring a breed that should not be in 98% of pet homes into this country. The fault lies with the people who breed and sell them to pet homes, and of course the owner in this case. 

Nothing to do with the police. Most police have close relationships with their forces K9 unit even if they aren't handlers themselves. The last thing they would want would be to shoot a dog but I guess that was deemed the best course of action at the time.


----------



## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Don't tell me to put a sock in it! And I am behaving like a 'bratty child' because I happen to know (not just think) that this dog could have at least been given a chance and because I dare to question the almighty authority of those who are basing their opinions on anecdotal evidence? Also because I dare to suggest that there are also double standards at play here?
> 
> Oh and don't say that I am spouting 'obnoxious vitriol' either. At least I'm not the one siding with a bunch of trigger happy cops and at least I'm not the one posting stupid memes and gifs, making jokes or proclaiming this dog would have been miserable in a sanctuary (you dammed well don't know that)!
> 
> ...


I am afraid you are the one basing your opinion on anecdotal evidence as:

1) you were not there to see this dog the police, RSPCA and vets were.
2) You don't own a guardian breed or have experience of one yet you dismiss the opinion those who do have experience.
3) You claim sedation, darting etc could be used yet you have no medical or veterinary knowledge and no experience of sedating an animal or darting one.
4) As far as I am aware you don't appear to have any actual experience of seeing an aggressive animal kept in a cage/pen/kennel long term and the cruelty of that. You refuse to believe those who do have the experience again dismissing their actual experience as anecdotal. I assume you are young and have never been to a zoo to see a lion or tiger so mentally distressed that it repeats the same distressed actions over and over.

Please, I know you are angry and upset everyone is but, you are sending your anger in the wrong direction. Take that anger and be productive with it to stop untraceable no good scum abandoning animals and leaving public services and charities to deal with the situation.

I don't wish to attack someone who is clearly passionate about animal welfare but you need to expand your knowledge and life experience. Passion for an issue is wonderful but again I ask you to take that passion and use it. Learn, investigate and expand your knowledge on the subject. I am passionate about not keeping dolphins and orca in captivity I have used that passion to read research, watch documentaries and talk to actual scientists in the field.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

labradrk said:


> I am passionate about not keeping dolphins and orca in captivity I have used that passion to read research, watch documentaries and talk to actual scientists in the field.


Good for you. I too am very much opposed to keeping Whales and Dolphins in captivity. I sponsor an Orca, have done for about 15 years now. Her name is Holly and she lives in Jonson straits in Canada, for part of the year at least.


----------



## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm jumping in here as seen this discussion over and over again all over FB and forums (FB is far more out of control) and it just then gets me all wound up and have had to stop reading when people (no on in particular) get all angry that the 'actual' expects who were on the scene were rubbish and had to act the way they did with the resources and knowledge they had at the time, did everything wrong and the ranters own armchair expect advice was way better .. or so and so at the other end of the country would have done it better etc, and when people don't read the facts and requote stuff which potentially isn't true - never let any facts get in the way of a good outpouring. 
And then start a petition too.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

We really really really need to teach critical thinking skills in our schools. Starting at the age of 7. There so many people here who just take information for granted. Especially when it fits with their own prejudices. And the compassion trolls are just running riot on FB


----------



## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

cbcdesign said:


> Good for you. I too am very much opposed to keeping Whales and Dolphins in captivity. I sponsor an Orca, have done for about 15 years now. Her name is Holly and she lives in Jonson straits in Canada, for part of the year at least.


That must be really thrilling but leave you worrying at times they really are stunningly beautiful creatures with so many parallels to humans. My son got to name the first whale shark he ever identified but as a juvenile male whale shark, he hasn't been spotted since 2015 which leaves us equally worrying and curious about what has happened to him.

I hope one day to see orca in the wild but until then I follow the Shetland Isles on Twitter the whales there get so close to the shoreline there are some fantastic photographs.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> We really really really need to teach critical thinking skills in our schools. Starting at the age of 7. There so many people here who just take information for granted. Especially when it fits with their own prejudices. And the compassion trolls are just running riot on FB


 Well, seeing as no one here was there to witness the event and no one knew the dog or the owners then any comments are peoples' opinions which they are entitled to express on forums , That is the point of forums.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I never said anything about expressing opinions. But I do roll my eyes at how much uninformed, melodramatic, unreasoned opinion there is out there. And how much willingness to accept an opinion that to anyone with any sense is obviously total nonsense. 

And I'm not referring to anyone in particular. When I said 'so many people here', I was referring to the UK, not Petforums.


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Jumping on the bandwagon springs to mind. So many people are so quick to get outraged without looking at the facts first. At least on here the vast majority of us are managing to have an informed discussion about it and examine the facts. The sort on FB are the ones who will only see dog was shot, OMG how horrible are the police for doing that.


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Boxerluver30 said:


> Jumping on the bandwagon springs to mind. So many people are so quick to get outraged without looking at the facts first. At least on here the vast majority of us are managing to have an informed discussion about it and examine the facts. The sort on FB are the ones who will only see dog was shot, OMG how horrible are the police for doing that.


And of course as already stated this does nothing to help bring whoever put the dog there to justice. I understand people expressing emotion, I know when I first saw this case I was very sad about what happened to the dog. However what I don't like is like I said people jumping on the bandwagon, saying they could of saved the dog etc etc. Its very easy to say that from the comfort of your own home behind a keyboard but when you are actually on the ground in that situation you sometimes have to make quick decisions. I don't imagine many of the people crying out on FB for example would of volunteered themselves


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I stand by my comment that if this had been a bull breed there wouldn’t have been half the outrage but because the dog is ‘fluffy’ it means it HAD TO BE SAVED ZOMG.

Just goes to show how prejudice society is against dogs because of how they look and how it can literally be the balancing edge between life and death.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> I stand by my comment that if this had been a bull breed there wouldn't have been half the outrage but because the dog is 'fluffy' it means it HAD TO BE SAVED ZOMG.
> 
> Just goes to show how prejudice society is against dogs because of how they look and how it can literally be the balancing edge between life and death.


I can't find the article...but I felt the same about an article in our local news...a woman was knocked down and broke her pelvis by a Labrador cross..beige in colour by all accounts, so obviously that makes a difference.Police
are not seeing this as an out of control dog...even though the owner had no control over the dog and just walked away...insert bull breed I bet it would have been seen differently...


----------



## Guest (Jan 25, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> I can't find the article...but I felt the same about an article in our local news...a woman was knocked down and broke her pelvis by a Labrador cross..beige in colour by all accounts, so obviously that makes a difference.Police
> are not seeing this as an out of control dog...even though the owner had no control over the dog and just walked away...insert bull breed I bet it would have been seen differently...


I've talked about the golden retriever who hurled himself on me, well, he was out again this past weekend. He saw me and apparently now I'm his friend. He came at me full speed and launched himself straight in to me. I'm 5'9" and his head was at my chin. He's a big boy. He repeatedly hurled his full weight on to me - picture typical golden "play with me" throwing his shoulder in to my chest/stomach. He seriously almost knocked me over. I most definitely could not keep running, I had to stop, grab his collar (as he gnawed on my hand) and unceremoniously walked him back to his house.

Not a thing about his behavior was aggressive in the least, he's a big, dumb idiot puppy/juvenile. But holy cow, yes it is dangerous! If I were not well-versed in big dumb dog behavior, I'm quite sure I would have at least been pinned to the spot unable to move away from him. He is quite persistent. I can't imagine how upsetting it might have been for someone unfamiliar with dogs or worse afraid of them.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> I stand by my comment that if this had been a bull breed there wouldn't have been half the outrage but because the dog is 'fluffy' it means it HAD TO BE SAVED ZOMG.
> 
> Just goes to show how prejudice society is against dogs because of how they look and how it can literally be the balancing edge between life and death.


It did look a cuddly teddy bear of a dog , I expect also the fact it had been tied up and abandoned also upset people .
Has there been a similar case of a bully tied up like this and then shot by the police?
I had a quick Google but could only find ones where the dog/s were loose.

@ouesi The same happened to me , I got knocked over by a young Goldie and then it jumped all over me . I had hairline fractures in my knee and ankle and it took several months for me to fully recover.


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I hate how because it's a lab or golden doing these behaviours then it's seen as ok and oh they are just being friendly (using the previous two examples). But god forbid a staffy for example doing the same, then it's seen as an attack by some people. Sorry but just because labs/goldens are seen as friendly breeds that doesn't give people a free pass to let them act like this.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I've talked about the golden retriever who hurled himself on me, well, he was out again this past weekend. He saw me and apparently now I'm his friend. He came at me full speed and launched himself straight in to me. I'm 5'9" and his head was at my chin. He's a big boy. He repeatedly hurled his full weight on to me - picture typical golden "play with me" throwing his shoulder in to my chest/stomach. He seriously almost knocked me over. I most definitely could not keep running, I had to stop, grab his collar (as he gnawed on my hand) and unceremoniously walked him back to his house.
> 
> Not a thing about his behavior was aggressive in the least, he's a big, dumb idiot puppy/juvenile. But holy cow, yes it is dangerous! If I were not well-versed in big dumb dog behavior, I'm quite sure I would have at least been pinned to the spot unable to move away from him. He is quite persistent. I can't imagine how upsetting it might have been for someone unfamiliar with dogs or worse afraid of them.


Out of control shouldn't be teamed with aggression because like you say..it can cause injury.

We got one of our old dogs Jasper through rescue, and the fosterer who had him was a retriever breeder/show person. I got bowled over by her youngest playing! I think he was 8 months so quite a big boned lad, as show lines and still a puppy. My fault and knew it was coming when he was running full pelt and I was crouched stroking the other dogs..just saw him at the corner of my eye too late, I had got him really excited! I walked away laughing..and bruised a little and told if I was ever interested in a golden get back in touch though because I was obviously interested and understood the dogs, and wasn't phased. Whereas she had people coming over who seemed ideal candidates for puppy's...loved the puppy's but the older dogs seemed scared of or thought they were too boisterous!...

Sorry for taking this off topic...but it does hold true breed sometimes matters and sways opinion and obviously even the police in my example!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> I'm not saying that the ban would be totally effective but it would ensure there won't be 40 puppies up for sale on Pets4homes.


I've said this before , I don;t agree with a ban but it has stopped those breeds listed (except pitbull types ) being bred, sold and owned by idiots and used as a status symbol etc .


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I've talked about the golden retriever who hurled himself on me, well, he was out again this past weekend. He saw me and apparently now I'm his friend. He came at me full speed and launched himself straight in to me. I'm 5'9" and his head was at my chin. He's a big boy. He repeatedly hurled his full weight on to me - picture typical golden "play with me" throwing his shoulder in to my chest/stomach. He seriously almost knocked me over. I most definitely could not keep running, I had to stop, grab his collar (as he gnawed on my hand) and unceremoniously walked him back to his house.
> 
> Not a thing about his behavior was aggressive in the least, he's a big, dumb idiot puppy/juvenile. But holy cow, yes it is dangerous! If I were not well-versed in big dumb dog behavior, I'm quite sure I would have at least been pinned to the spot unable to move away from him. He is quite persistent. I can't imagine how upsetting it might have been for someone unfamiliar with dogs or worse afraid of them.


That is dreadful. My body would not stand up to that and I would probably be out of action for weeks.



kimthecat said:


> I've said this before , I don;t agree with a ban but it has stopped those breeds listed (except pitbull types ) being bred, sold and owned by idiots and used as a status symbol etc .


But the other banned breeds did not exist in this country and pit bull types could have no pit bull or staffy in them at all so it is a farce.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

If anyone is interested...this is the article I mentioned...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.li...al-news/dog-owner-just-walks-away-1107740.amp

The police are saying they are looking in to it...but say it's not a dangerous dog...as a laymen not understanding that it SHOULD be seen fall foul of the dog law as being out of control, even though the full facts I guess aren't there all we know dog knocked a woman to the ground as she's in hospital....a statement from the police saying they are looking in to it seems neither here nor there. Of course this is just my opinion and interpretation.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> That is dreadful. My body would not stand up to that and I would probably be out of action for weeks.


I was 



> But the other banned breeds did not exist in this country and pit bull types could have no pit bull or staffy in them at all so it is a farce.


A lot of breeds didn't exist in this country when we had strict quarantine laws though that's not to say there weren't any at all .
But you never know which breeds will catch on as a fad here and what ever breed it is , it will be detrimental to that breed and individual dogs . 
I'm not against the breeds that are banned and I agree with you that its a farce.


----------



## Guest (Jan 25, 2018)

Blitz said:


> That is dreadful. My body would not stand up to that and I would probably be out of action for weeks.


He really is out of control... And the thing is, he would be an easy fix. Just the few interactions I've had with him, he's very biddable, actually a very nice dog... But he's constantly loose, out near a 2 lane highway, no fear whatsoever of people or cars, typical doofy, I love everyone... He's going to end up shot or run over


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> He really is out of control... And the thing is, he would be an easy fix. Just the few interactions I've had with him, he's very biddable, actually a very nice dog... But he's constantly loose, out near a 2 lane highway, no fear whatsoever of people or cars, typical doofy, I love everyone... He's going to end up shot or run over


Such a shame...and that's I think it though Ouesi I have seen a few times 'nice friendly dogs' who are biddable run across the road to interact with people, my heart's in my mouth and cars slamming on their brakes and luckily I haven't witnessed an accident. Doesn't mean it isn't waiting to happen though...owners response less than productive to be honest...but as said dog isn't 'dangerous' it's highly unlikely going to 'bite' owners seem to think it's OK it doesn't matter! The dog will not do any harm.


----------



## Guest (Jan 25, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Such a shame...and that's I think it though Ouesi I have seen a few times 'nice friendly dogs' who are biddable run across the road to interact with people, my heart's in my mouth and cars slamming on their brakes and luckily I haven't witnessed an accident. Doesn't mean it isn't waiting to happen though...owners response less than productive to be honest...but as said dog isn't 'dangerous' it's highly unlikely going to 'bite' owners seem to think it's OK it doesn't matter! The dog will not do any harm.


It's the "he's friendly" curse isn't it? 
I often thing "friendly" dogs cause more issues than aggressive ones. And not just for others, but for themselves too. 
At least most people recognize aggression for what it is and try to avoid it. But man, those friendly dogs!


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

lullabydream said:


> Such a shame...and that's I think it though Ouesi I have seen a few times 'nice friendly dogs' who are biddable run across the road to interact with people, my heart's in my mouth and cars slamming on their brakes and luckily I haven't witnessed an accident. Doesn't mean it isn't waiting to happen though...owners response less than productive to be honest...but as said dog isn't 'dangerous' it's highly unlikely going to 'bite' owners seem to think it's OK it doesn't matter! The dog will not do any harm.


One of samsons dog friends, Clyde, once had this happen to him. I wasn't there so didn't witness it but my mum did. He was off lead coming down the path opposite a road, saw my mum walking from a distance on the path opposite and ran over before his owner could get him back. Car coming up the road had to screech to a halt and luckily Clyde wasn't hit and made it to other side safely. All of them (including car driver) were panicking tho as you would be! He is put on lead now near roads as after that he can't be trusted not to do it again


----------



## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Whilst I agree its mostly just Bull breeds that receive bad publicity any breed can be deemed out of control and put under a destruction order for being simply over excited.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

There really ought to be some recognition in law for the difference between pure accident and a truly dangerous dog. The current laws really are ludicrously draconian in my opinion.


----------



## MissSpitzMum (Dec 4, 2017)

How awful, poor Zoe. Her entire life needs to be spent stuck on a lead because she got excited...

We were told in puppy class that a person only needs to 'feel worried' for your dog to be deemed dangerous. It doesn't matter if your dog is actually dangerous, or if the person is being irrational. Your dog can be on a lead, no physical threat at all, and just scare someone. As a reactive (excitement) Spitz owner this has always stuck in my mind.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MissSpitzMum said:


> How awful, poor Zoe. Her entire life needs to be spent stuck on a lead because she got excited...
> 
> We were told in puppy class that a person only needs to 'feel worried' for your dog to be deemed dangerous. It doesn't matter if your dog is actually dangerous, or if the person is being irrational. Your dog can be on a lead, no physical threat at all, and just scare someone. As a reactive (excitement) Spitz owner this has always stuck in my mind.


That is true about feeling threatened.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Excitement is still an emotional response...and although how sad it's just a little wee thing but everyday their are many people, and not solely dog owners/walkers who have to deal with over friendly dogs...who are basically just balls of excitement...and do knocked, hurt and cause problems...size or breed shouldn't matter but even with police and the media it does...

An out of control dog is an out of control dog for whatever reason.

Many dogs are muzzled and never offlead for safety reasons on walks because they have sensible owners.. they don't have any qualms about it. These dogs can still live a good fulfilled life, I don't actually think the punishment is that bad for Zoey, and I don't know if it was a picture of a bull breed and not a border terrier whether people would feel the same...am not talking about here but the Joe Public as the media has hyped the bull breeds well.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

MissSpitzMum said:


> How awful, poor Zoe. Her entire life needs to be spent stuck on a lead because she got excited...
> 
> *We were told in puppy class that a person only needs to 'feel worried' for your dog to be deemed dangerous.* It doesn't matter if your dog is actually dangerous, or if the person is being irrational. Your dog can be on a lead, no physical threat at all, and just scare someone. As a reactive (excitement) Spitz owner this has always stuck in my mind.


There has to be a genuine threat. In law it is described as reasonable apprehension that it will injure somebody. Some people have phobias for example and will be frightened even when a dog they are scared of is under an owners control and on leash. That doesn't make the dog dangerous under the act however.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Picklelily said:


> That must be really thrilling but leave you worrying at times they really are stunningly beautiful creatures with so many parallels to humans. My son got to name the first whale shark he ever identified but as a juvenile male whale shark, he hasn't been spotted since 2015 which leaves us equally worrying and curious about what has happened to him.
> 
> I hope one day to see orca in the wild but until then I follow the Shetland Isles on Twitter the whales there get so close to the shoreline there are some fantastic photographs.


We get orcas sometimes. They are unbelievable to see, look like giant bath toys!



MissSpitzMum said:


> How awful, poor Zoe. Her entire life needs to be spent stuck on a lead because she got excited...
> 
> We were told in puppy class that a person only needs to 'feel worried' for your dog to be deemed dangerous. It doesn't matter if your dog is actually dangerous, or if the person is being irrational. Your dog can be on a lead, no physical threat at all, and just scare someone. As a reactive (excitement) Spitz owner this has always stuck in my mind.


It has to be a 'reasonable' worry. The only thing that bothers me with that qualification - what if it went to court and the judge was scared of or disliked dogs, they might well think it reasonable to be frightened of a dog that was minding its own business. My daughter had a friend who was given a doggy asbo for her dog barking at someone on the other side of the road and frightening them. I do not consider that very reasonable.


----------



## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

Picklelily said:


> Whilst I agree its mostly just Bull breeds that receive bad publicity any breed can be deemed out of control and put under a destruction order for being simply over excited.
> View attachment 343077


Another example (not related to being excited, but still a strong response to what shouldn't have been such a big issue) :
http://www.furryfriendsrescue.co.uk/sanctuary/teddy/
If anything, I imagine being a bull breed might have helped this little mite. Lots of people seem to think it's acceptable to treat small dogs like toys. I know one man who has a small fluffy crossbreed who looks a bit like Teddy who isn't great with strangers. He keeps her on a lead with a warning label on it, has her on a harness with a warning label on it, doesn't walk her in busy areas, will warn people who come near her that she might bite, and yet people are still offended when they go to grab her face and get snapped or growled at.

edit: Having posted it I realise it's not very relevant at all... my fault for posting when I'm so tired! The topic simply reminded me of this story and I didn't think too much about it.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

elmthesofties said:


> Another example that has stuck with me for a long time:
> http://www.furryfriendsrescue.co.uk/sanctuary/teddy/
> If anything, I imagine being a bull breed might have helped this little mite. Lots of people seem to think it's acceptable to treat small dogs like toys. I know one man who has a small fluffy crossbreed who looks a bit like Teddy who isn't great with strangers. He keeps her on a lead with a warning label on it, has her on a harness with a warning label on it, doesn't walk her in busy areas, will warn people who come near her that she might bite, and yet people are still offended when they go to grab her face and get snapped or growled at.


There has been a case this week, which I believe was actually dismissed in the end about a chihuahua which attacked a postie...
The media reports I saw just made a mockery of it...finding it highly hilarious were the comments by many 
If the dog went to bite. ..and by all accounts did in this case then at the very least the owner should be aware and take control...I am sure the media would have been more hyped if it was a different breed hanging off someone's leg for a period of time. Dogs are animals and not robots, and to be fair I am sure I heard that most dog bites that are dealt with are caused by family pets first and foremost so less likely to be prosecuted.

As owners of toy breeds...I can vouch that those who don't look that physically fit and enable can quickly bend down to stroke my dogs without making any small talk or let alone eye contact...if I thought my dogs would bite I would muzzle them however I think people would still not be wary as it would probably be seen as cute more than anything


----------



## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> There has been a case this week, which I believe was actually dismissed in the end about a chihuahua which attacked a postie...
> The media reports I saw just made a mockery of it...finding it highly hilarious were the comments by many
> If the dog went to bite. ..and by all accounts did in this case then at the very least the owner should be aware and take control...I am sure the media would have been more hyped if it was a different breed hanging off someone's leg for a period of time. Dogs are animals and not robots, and to be fair I am sure I heard that most dog bites that are dealt with are caused by family pets first and foremost so less likely to be prosecuted.
> 
> As owners of toy breeds...I can vouch that those who don't look that physically fit and enable can quickly bend down to stroke my dogs without making any small talk or let alone eye contact...if I thought my dogs would bite I would muzzle them however I think people would still not be wary as it would probably be seen as cute more than anything


I realised after I submitted that the post was a mess and wasn't sure how to salvage it!

I acknowledge that toy breeds can still cause damage and that needs to be dealt with as effectively as possible, but a dog who might bite if picked up and kissed in the face by a stranger is not an immediate threat to society. Yes, they need management, but I think that if someone was warned of the dog's temperament or if they didn't ask questions they need to take some responsibility. Not every dog is bombproof and it's not reasonable to expect them to be.

The dog I mentioned hasn't attacked anyone and she's brachycephalic so I'm not sure how effective a muzzle would be in any case. However, people routinely ignore warnings because she's 'cute'. Following on from that, people also overlook her reaction because she's 'cute'. As said, cuteness seems to be a huge contributing factor for the rage that the dog in OP was shot and people seem to be overlooking the fact that by all accounts she posed a serious risk. Absolutely bizarre.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

elmthesofties said:


> I realised after I submitted that the post was a mess and wasn't sure how to salvage it!
> 
> I acknowledge that toy breeds can still cause damage and that needs to be dealt with as effectively as possible, but a dog who might bite if picked up and kissed in the face by a stranger is not an immediate threat to society. Yes, they need management, but I think that if someone was warned of the dog's temperament or if they didn't ask questions they need to take some responsibility. Not every dog is bombproof and it's not reasonable to expect them to be.
> 
> The dog I mentioned hasn't attacked anyone and she's brachycephalic so I'm not sure how effective a muzzle would be in any case. However, people routinely ignore warnings because she's 'cute'. Following on from that, people also overlook her reaction because she's 'cute'. As said, cuteness seems to be a huge contributing factor for the rage that the dog in OP was shot and people seem to be overlooking the fact that by all accounts she posed a serious risk. Absolutely bizarre.


I hear where you are coming from ..the majority of dog attacks regardless of breeds are probably not a danger to the public either...unless they have been absolutely horrific as dogs or animals really go from sweet and loving to attacking without signs previously unless there is an underlying medical issue.

More education is what's needed too about being dog savvy...as some people are so arrogant to believe all dogs love them..

It's a complex subject...which I feel the only way people will understand how to be responsible for their dogs...is to show in the media more dogs like Teddy in fact so we don't have so much breed bashing, or guillable idiots thinking I own X breed of dog who means the law doesn't apply to me it does...


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> More education is what's needed too about being dog savvy...some people are so arrogant to believe all dogs love them....


Same people have this seemingly incurable need to try and convince you they know all about dogs, as they get all the more closer to you despite you telling them not to.
The statement, _'I know all about dogs' _is dangerously flawed because, in plain simple terms, they don't know about all dogs.

On our travels we've met the occasional fool who has been quite prepared to sacrifice himself to the God that hides behind his ignorance and stupidity.

So yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you, more education is what's needed. Particularly about all breed types.

ETA: partially anecdotal.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I remember Teddy as I follow FF
His case and a few others are perfect examples of the out cry of fluffy breeds being subject to control orders get...yet other dogs aren't even allowed to look at people the wrong way!


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Have to agree with the cute factor and ignorance.

The most human reactive dog I ever had must be the one who was most cute and adorable to humans , Benny.
Benny was like an autistic child, he did not like eye contact and did not like to be touched unless on his terms. I think this might have been a problem caused by the abuse of his first owner.
We were fine with it and stuck to Benny's rules. If he wanted a cuddle he would come and nudge and as he aged he got used to us so we could stroke and handle him but no strangers..Especially no children. he didn't attack or approach but he would back away, he would lick his lips, roll his eyes, fold his ears flat and if pushed, growl like a demon, even then some incredibly stupid people would still try to touch him . When words didn't stop them I would body block them and at times I have physically restrained people and told them unless you want to loose a few fingers back off ...you've been warned.
Still there are people who say óh but dogs love me' or 'oh but hes so cute' or even 'he has to learn' Jeez never occurred to them that they might have to learn!

Sometimes I pity dogs who have the cute factor.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Same people have this seemingly incurable need to try and convince you they know all about dogs, as they get all the more closer to you despite you telling them not to.
> The statement, _'I know all about dogs' _is dangerously flawed because, in plain simple terms, they don't know about all dogs.
> 
> On our travels we've met the occasional fool who has been quite prepared to sacrifice himself to the God that hides behind his ignorance and stupidity.
> ...


I dont think it is just education, I think it is going to happen whatever. I had the chiropractor to a pony a few years ago. He was a serious biter, no vice but had to grab at things. I warned her to keep her hands well out of the way of his face but apparently she knew how to handle horses so she waved her fingers in front of him and had one broken! I had no sympathy whatever. Also the 'friend' who was visiting and insisted he could make friends with my man shy sheltie. He backed her into a corner and got his hand bitten. What a fuss he made, again no sympathy from me.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I dont think it is just education, I think it is going to happen whatever. I had the chiropractor to a pony a few years ago. He was a serious biter, no vice but had to grab at things. I warned her to keep her hands well out of the way of his face but apparently she knew how to handle horses so she waved her fingers in front of him and had one broken! I had no sympathy whatever. Also the 'friend' who was visiting and insisted he could make friends with my man shy sheltie. He backed her into a corner and got his hand bitten. What a fuss he made, again no sympathy from me.


I completely understand what you're saying, but in the case of these dogs you're more likely to lose more than just your pride should they bite you.

We try to be as responsible and as considerate with the dogs as we possibly can, because we know we are legally responsible for them and the way in which they might react to any odd situation that could arise. But the way some situations often develop, those who should rightly be held accountable, also want you to be responsible for them too.

It would be nice to say_ 'Serves you bloody well right'_ or_ 'I told you so_' and then simply continue on your way but, unfortunately, you'd probably be walking away with something that belonged to them.

Thankfully, we've only met a handful of wanna be superheroes.


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

It is hard with fluffies to keep people away, especially youngsters with parents who are encouraging their toddlers/very small children to come over and kiss/hug the cute doggie :Rage

Now while i can vouch for Oscar and Poppy's huge tolerance levels around babies/toddlers (we have 3 grandchildren and a 2 yr old nephew so they are very used to little ones now!) Lucy however is not so tolerant. She is a proper grumpy old lady these days. In our own house she is moved to another room or taken upstairs to bed when we have little ones in the house - for her own safety/peace as much as anyone elses.

This obviously isn't possible outside, hence why i never walk all 3 when i am on my own. I cannot pick up 3 dogs to keep them safe from other peoples children who have not been taught how to be gentle around dogs or how to approach them properly.

I should not have too !

Yet it would be my fault (my dogs fault) if a child poked them in the eye, or grabbed their ears, or stood on their paws, IF they reacted.

I know it must be upsetting sometimes when people cross the street to avoid you and your bull breeds .... but honestly, having a fluffy with people racing over to see, is not much fun either tbh.

There needs to be awareness all around IMO. Not just from dog owners but from the general public aswell. Not that it would ever happen, but it should work both ways - control orders for out of control children and bad parents .... never gonna happen though is it, will always be the fault of the dog, regardless of how much poking the child did to prevoke the bite.

Sorry taking this thread completely off topic now ..... just annoys me, keeping my dogs safe from children is at least a weekly occurance during our pavement plods that we cannot avoid mid week


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Westie Mum said:


> I know it must be upsetting sometimes when people cross the street to avoid you and your bull breeds .... but honestly, having a fluffy with people racing over to see, is not much fun either tbh.


TBH, I prefer that people cross the road if that's how they feel. Saves anything developing. One of the reasons I like bull breeds is that people tend to be more respectful of the dog than with the fluffy breeds. A lot of which are terriers who are totally prepared to defend themsleves. I once had a 3-legged JRT with one ear up and one ear down. He was the epitome of cute but not a lover of being handled by strangers so I know what you mean.


----------



## MissSpitzMum (Dec 4, 2017)

Westie Mum said:


> It is hard with fluffies to keep people away, especially youngsters with parents who are encouraging their toddlers/very small children to come over and kiss/hug the cute doggie :Rage
> 
> Now while i can vouch for Oscar and Poppy's huge tolerance levels around babies/toddlers (we have 3 grandchildren and a 2 yr old nephew so they are very used to little ones now!) Lucy however is not so tolerant. She is a proper grumpy old lady these days. In our own house she is moved to another room or taken upstairs to bed when we have little ones in the house - for her own safety/peace as much as anyone elses.
> 
> ...


Have to agree on this one. Merlin is small, fluffy and cute, but he can either get shy with people or go the total opposite and try and bowl them over. With kids its generally an attempt to get to their faces to lick them, so he's always on a lead around small kids.

The amount of people who let their toddlers run, and I mean run, over a small cute dog on a lead is just staggering. They run over, Merlin gets excited and starts bouncing around, their parents do nothing so I have to make up some excuse that they might listen to. I've found 'he's rolled in something nasty' soon gets the parents to scoop up the kids. But if those kids managed to get over, and Merlin knocked them down and licked their faces, I would be in the sh*t.

Then there is the fact Merlin barks when he's excited, and kids rushing towards him smelling like whatever is still around their mouth excites him to no end. He sounds pretty scary when he's barking, because he adds in some growling sounds for good measure (Spitz owners will know this as an awooooo). In his mind he's being friendly, but for people who don't know him he's intimidating and scaring their kids, so then I get worried about being reported for worrying people in a situation I had no control over other than him being stuck on a lead.

Moral of the story; people are just dumb!


----------



## Sproglet (Aug 25, 2017)

I would personally be quite happy to upset a child or their parent by telling them they're not allowed to come near my dog. I really don't care, my dog comes first.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sproglet said:


> I would personally be quite happy to upset a child or their parent by telling them they're not allowed to come near my dog. I really don't care, my dog comes first.


This.

My dogs aren't public property.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

I am fairly lucky. Duchess definitely has the cute factor, she is a good looking dog but she is also big and that tends to put kids off from running over to her and touching her. They tend to approach far more cautiously and ask if its ok first. Sometimes though just passing older children can be a problem. A couple of days ago a girl of around 12 walked passed us and just reached out and touched Duchess on the head muttering something as she did so which I couldn't hear. Duch didn't react but I was quite miffed about it. Firstly she had no right to just touch Duchess, secondly she risked getting bitten because she did not know the dog or how she would react and thirdly why is she so unaware of the old rule we were taught as kids which was not to reach out and touch a strange dog?.

So yes, I agree absolutely with Westie Mum. There needs to be more awareness. Its not just our responsibility to keep our dogs in check, other people have a responsibility for ensuring that they respect boundaries and ask before they make physical contact with our dogs.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Sproglet said:


> I would personally be quite happy to upset a child or their parent by telling them they're not allowed to come near my dog. I really don't care, my dog comes first.


I just tell people my dogs don`t like to be touched, I say it in a matter of fact way not apologetically, nobody can get hurt feelings as I'm just stating a fact.

Personally I think the only education needed is to simply tell people to ignore dogs. If it became normal for no one to have any interest in touching or approaching dogs then a lot of problems would be solved. That would work both ways, owners that get upset because people don`t want to interact with their dog (and there are a lot that do feel everyone should want to pet their dog) would take it less personally as it`s not just their dog but every dog.

Back to the dog shot by police, I haven`t seen if there is any idea of how old she was, has anyone seen anything about possible age mentioned?


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

The media say the dog was old.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> I just tell people my dogs don`t like to be touched, I say it in a matter of fact way not apologetically, nobody can get hurt feelings as I'm just stating a fact.
> 
> Personally I think the only education needed is to simply tell people to ignore dogs. If it became normal for no one to have any interest in touching or approaching dogs then a lot of problems would be solved. That would work both ways, owners that get upset because people don`t want to interact with their dog (and there are a lot that do feel everyone should want to pet their dog) would take it less personally as it`s not just their dog but every dog.
> 
> Back to the dog shot by police, I haven`t seen if there is any idea of how old she was, has anyone seen anything about possible age mentioned?


I'm polite for the first couple of warnings, then I get blunt I'm afraid.

Some people just don't get a hint!


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

This dog is extremely fear aggressive, she has a long list for her bite history (not whilst I have been working with her I might add)...she will use her teeth if she feels the need to and she means business and will puncher the skin!









I am constantly having to body block people from touching her without permission...she makes it clear that she doesn't want to interact but people find her cute and funny when she kicks off!

This dog has zero bite history (humans), he seeks out attention from some people and causes no problems at all in public









Yet I have been told that he doesn't deserve to live, people have risked getting run over by jumping into the road as we walked past and we get scowls on a daily basis...

Tis a funny world that we live in.


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I had words this week about Murphy.. Lady down the road is a childminder ( I wouldnt let her mind a shopping trolley) 3 kids all running across the road screaming their heads off waving their arms, coming straight at us .. I held Murphy close but he did let out one little woof ....
At which point she made a comment ... well Hello? (very sarcastic)
I replied hello yourself, please keep your children under control..
She replied 'well you should teach your dog manners..'
I said .I'm trying but hes only a year old, yours are at least 6 so whats your excuse?

Result one gobsmacked childminder..


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

cbcdesign said:


> The media say the dog was old.


Oh thanks I must have missed that! I wonder if she had health conditions associated with elderly dog and that's why she was abandoned, unless the owner is traced we won`t know. Someone somewhere must have known her, I don`t do social media except on here but I take it, as it hasn`t been mentioned, there are not lots of FB messages saying they know who she belonged to except the one supposedly from the people who found her?


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

I would think health issues were a certainty in an old larger dog, arthritis at the very least.


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I find I get mixed reactions from the public with Holly (GSD). Some people are scared of her because of her breed and others are very drawn to her because of her breed (and the fact that she is quite hairy). 

I was walking her in the woods some time ago and a group of children (aged probably 8-10) ran up to us and one flung her arms around Holly. It all happened so quickly that I hadn't even had chance to ask her not to. Thank God that she is not easily phased by things like this as had it been a different dog then it could have been a nasty situation. And where were the parents? I have absolutely no idea


----------



## MissSpitzMum (Dec 4, 2017)

@StormyThai Very off topic but not sure how to send a PM, your gorgeous boy in the second picture, what harness and collar is he using?


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

MissSpitzMum said:


> he's rolled in something nasty' soon gets the parents to scoop up the kids


I once told a mother 'he has fleas' and that made her remove her child pdq!


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Scary how people react differently (and stupidly) around different breeds. The dog with the worst bite history I have personally had contact with was the most stunning pedigree golden cocker spaniel. He however had serious resource guarding issues and had stopped giving warnings due to how his first owners 'dealt' with him. He put at least three people in hospital - one lady bent over him to take his bowl and got bitten on the chest and was in hospital for days getting it drained and sorted. Her parents ( who had experience with cockers) said that he couldn't possibly be 'pure cocker spaniel', because cockers weren't aggressive...
He came into rescue but was unfortunately so unpredictable that he couldn't be safely rehomed despite the best efforts of the fosters and rescue to try and get to the bottom of his multiple issues. He was lovely when he wanted to be, a gorgeous dog, but there were some deep-rooted problems and the best cause of action was a peaceful release from the stress of this life. Still heartbreaking though


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MissSpitzMum said:


> @StormyThai Very off topic but not sure how to send a PM, your gorgeous boy in the second picture, what harness and collar is he using?


To send a PM you click on the little envelope on the right hand side and click "start a conversation" 

It's a Vari-fit from Indidog https://indi-dog.co.uk/Ready-to-ship/Vari-Fit-range-harnesses


----------



## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Sarah H said:


> Scary how people react differently (and stupidly) around different breeds. The dog with the worst bite history I have personally had contact with was the most stunning pedigree golden cocker spaniel. He however had serious resource guarding issues and had stopped giving warnings due to how his first owners 'dealt' with him. He put at least three people in hospital - one lady bent over him to take his bowl and got bitten on the chest and was in hospital for days getting it drained and sorted. Her parents ( who had experience with cockers) said that he couldn't possibly be 'pure cocker spaniel', because cockers weren't aggressive...
> He came into rescue but was unfortunately so unpredictable that he couldn't be safely rehomed despite the best efforts of the fosters and rescue to try and get to the bottom of his multiple issues. He was lovely when he wanted to be, a gorgeous dog, but there were some deep-rooted problems and the best cause of action was a peaceful release from the stress of this life. Still heartbreaking though


I've post count of how many horrendously aggressive cocker spaniels I've dealt with now. There is some terribly irresponsible breeding going on and resource guarding is rife. It's such a shame as they're lovely dogs.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> It did look a cuddly teddy bear of a dog , I expect also the fact it had been tied up and abandoned also upset people .
> 
> Has there been a similar case of a bully tied up like this and then shot by the police?
> I had a quick Google but could only find ones where the dog/s were loose.


I don't think I've had an answer to this ? Anyone?


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Katalyst said:


> I've post count of how many horrendously aggressive cocker spaniels I've dealt with now. There is some terribly irresponsible breeding going on and resource guarding is rife. It's such a shame as they're lovely dogs.


They were the only breed that put the fear of god in me when I worked in vets.

Giant bull types or other "scary" breeds, no problems at all.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I don't think I've had an answer to this ? Anyone?


I think whatever bull breeds do...no matter how 'bad' to us, they can usually be managed by a responsible person, plus of course the size...

There have been plenty of 'nice' cases of bull breeds been abandon the same way..been in local media and got rehomed.

What happened about the bull breed at the children's park? The story wasn't that long ago after it attacked several children and some adults tied it to the fence...I can't remember if that dog was PTS on sight or taken away. Just can remember pictures of the dog and the outcry of those who do not like bull breeds...

Then there was the man who walked his 'dogs' in Manchester? was it, city centre did some of those get shot? As they were deemed a threat to the public I can't remember. They were free running.

Neither dogs had vigils though...


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> I think whatever bull breeds do...no matter how 'bad' to us, they can usually be managed by a responsible person, plus of course the size...
> 
> There have been plenty of 'nice' cases of bull breeds been abandon the same way..been in local media and got rehomed.
> 
> ...


Not quite the same but there was huge out cry about poor Lennox in NI .

The cases you mentioned , if they are the same ones, 5 dogs had actually bitten and were running loose , a dog loose in the park that had bitten a 12 year old was tasered but it didnt stop him .

So I don't think you can compare that to the CO incident. I don't do FB so I dont know which people started the petition or added their voice but if they are dog people then they could well have started one for a bully breed and a lot of dog lovers would have signed it . 
I know bully owners get a load of crap and are letting off steam in general about attitudes to their dogs but felt the criticism about the people , ignorant or not , who think the OC could have been saved was a bit unfair so I just thought I'd point the above out .


----------

