# Gluing Ears



## Black & Tan (Mar 6, 2009)

Is there an upper age limit when it is no longer feasible to glue a dog's ears?


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

This post has lost me I'm afraid!!!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Why glue ears? Confuzzled 

I've heard of taping a dogs ears as a pup to encourage them in a more desirable position but not gluing - Is it the same principle?


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> Why glue ears? Confuzzled
> 
> I've heard of taping a dogs ears as a pup to encourage them in a more desirable position but not gluing - Is it the same principle?


Yes same principle

I wouldnt glue a dogs ears myself, the potential for pain and discomfort to high IMO.

But in answer to your question I believe it is generally felt it is not worth taping a dogs ears after one year of age. Some will say earlier than that, ie after teething


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

babycham2002 said:


> Yes same principle
> 
> I wouldnt glue a dogs ears myself, the potential for pain and discomfort to high IMO.
> 
> But in answer to your question I believe it is generally felt it is not worth taping a dogs ears after one year of age. Some will say earlier than that, ie after teething


Eeek gluing sounds horrific  imagine the pain of removing it 

In my very very limited knowledge taping is done as young as possible.

Gluing just sounds bait to far though


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

I believe some dog show breeders/people glue or tape ears of a puppy down/up if the breed standard states that a particular breed of dog - like a german shepherd should have erect ears, or a whippet should have ears shaped like a rose. In the german shepherd if one or both of the ears fold over the ear is taped to stand erect. In the whippet the tip of the ear is taped/glued down as the ear should be semi-erect not erect. 

I thought all this kind of stuff was in yesteryear I didn't know show people still did it. I always thought it was kind of pointless as the dogs I knew, that this had been used on - in my case whippets, still 'flew' their ears even after months of taping or gluing.

Bit of a useless exercise and a time waster if you ask me - breed standards eh? I never knew a whippet that ran on it's ears, but there you go.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I've heard it all now, this cant be for real surely, why would you want to mess about with a dogs ears for goodness sake, what possible purpose does it serve. Perhaps I'm just dull but it seems to me to be a pointless exercise that is only going to cause discomfort to the dog. If you dont like the way a dogs ears are then buy a breed whose ears you find acceptable.


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

I could be wrong but I think, if the ears are thick and the base isn't strong then it's preferable to tape them before 7 months to give them a helping hand. 
Ears taped after 7 months usually won't stand. 
Cottage cheese, gelatin, and chewing bones are suppose to help them come up too


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Last year when Precious was about 3 months I took her to a Border Terrier fun day. One of her ears was stuck out to the side and I had all the people in the know telling me I should massage it, glue it and various other ways to get it to sit forward.
Well they had me worried that there was going to be a problem and every two or three weeks the side sticking ear would swap to the other side and at one point both were like it. Eventually her ears did go forward but they looked overly large for her head. Now at 15 months her ears sit forward perfectly and look the right size so I just think things were changing as she was growing. I wish I had never spent the first year of her life worrying about her ears.
Luna's ears have started doing the same but am I going to worry, no, not this time.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

gluing (if done RIGHT) is far less uncomfortable than it sounds... i can't remember the name of it, but there is a craft glue that disolves in water that can be used to stick some lolipop sticks (or ideally those sticks of cigarette filter things). it should only be left a week, then wash it off, then if they drop within 2 days up again for nearly a week.... but if it doesn't work 3rd time IMO it wont work.

i did it as told with poppets ear as it was a bit waivery, but massaging and keeping the hair trimmed down worked Far better- her ear strengthened up 100% a week shy of her 1st birthday... so i'd Never do it again.

to me, taping sounds more painful though :-/



()was posting the same time as firedog- sounds like me n popp tbh! but i ended up trying it)


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I remembered the name of it earlier but for the life of me cannot remember it now.

It's called Copydex.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

What breed do you have OP? 

Taping or gluing should not be painful if done properly, you can use a little baby oil and it won't pull and fur out. 

Ears can do all sorts of funny things while they're teething, they generally settle down to where they should be on their own after teething. Not always though. 

Why do you want to do this, are you showing, if you are I would speak to your breeder about what is best for your pup. Some breeders will supplement calcium to improve ear cartilage and feet, but you need to be *very careful* about dosing.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

springerpete said:


> I've heard it all now, this cant be for real surely, why would you want to mess about with a dogs ears for goodness sake, what possible purpose does it serve. Perhaps I'm just dull but it seems to me to be a pointless exercise that is only going to cause discomfort to the dog. If you dont like the way a dogs ears are then buy a breed whose ears you find acceptable.


 ^^This.^^

Totally agree, can't understand why any one would want to glue or tape a dogs ears.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Weird but better than cutting them into shape.


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm not sure why taping ears is so offensive to some members. If done right it shouldn't cause any pain and its mostly used on breeds who's ears are suppose to stand but need a little help. 

The OP probably did buy a breeds who's ears are "acceptable to them" but unfortunately they are to thick or weak to stand as they should. 

There is no cutting or damaging the ear in the process and it is just a method of holding them upright until the cartilage hardens in the right position. 

This isn't suppose to sound snarky, I just don't understand whats so bad about taping? Perhaps I'm just used to seeing it on GSD forums and have missed the part of it being cruel?


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

This goes on a lot in Manchesters. As has already been said, taping and gluing is NOT painful or uncomfortable to the dog if done correctly.

We have had hell on earth with Mabel's ears, we were told all sorts - glue, tape, massage, use this oil, that oil, this cream, this spray, we've been told to just leave them, to weight them down with pennies... you name it we've been told it! We've tried a few things (tape, weights, creams) but none of it worked very well - we have found the best way to do it is just gently massage them right before going into the ring. We've been massaging her ears since the day we brought her home and used to do it in the evening as she slept on our laps, so she seems to find it very relaxing and it does do the job


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

For the folk stating that gluing or taping ears is not uncomfortable for the dog - how do you *know* that for sure...?

Personally I would not dream of doing this nor would I be impressed if I witnessed someone else doing it. Surely what counts is that a dog is healthy with good hearing - isn't that more important?

When we had a Rough Collie, many years ago, we were told repeatedly that he was a stunning dog and could be shown if only his ears were 'right'. We never dreamed of taping or gluing or doing anything else to our dog's ears!


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> For the folk stating that gluing or taping ears it not uncomfortable for the dog - how do you *know* that for sure...?
> 
> Personally I would not dream of doing this nor would I be impressed if I witnessed someone else doing it. Surely what counts is that a dog is healthy with good hearing - isn't that more important?
> 
> When we had a Rough Collie, many years ago, we were told repeatedly that he was a stunning dog and could be shown if only his ears were 'right'. We never dreamed of taping or gluing or doing anything else to our dog's ears!


I'm quite sure that if it was uncomfortable then they'd be showing signs that it was - pawing/scratching at it, shaking their head etc... like anything else, if they're uncomfortable with something then they'll let us know!

It also doesn't affect their health or their hearing... my dog is perfectly healthy and has perfectly good (albeit very selective) hearing


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

Maybe I'm being a bit naive here, but I would have thought if a dogs ears were supposed to sick up, then they would do, and artifical ways of getting them to do so wouldn't be needed.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I really don't understand why people want to change the appearance of their dogs in a permenant way. If you really want a dog to look a certain way, then look round till you find one that fits the bill.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Tigerneko said:


> I'm quite sure that if it was uncomfortable then they'd be showing signs that it was - pawing/scratching at it, shaking their head etc... like anything else, if they're uncomfortable with something then they'll let us know!
> 
> It also doesn't affect their health or their hearing... my dog is perfectly healthy and has perfectly good (albeit very selective) hearing


I never suggested that it affected their health or hearing.

I simply suggested that surely what mattered was that a dog was healthy and that it had good hearing, ideally. As opposed to what matters being their ears standing up/standing down/sitting at right angles/whatever the hell they're 'meant' to do 

You said you used 'weights' on your dog's ears? Wouldn't that be a tad uncomfortable? No offence intended - it's a genuine question.


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## Guest (May 15, 2013)

LOL I thought this was going to be about an injured ear and using surgical glue to try to keep it closed. (And more importantly, trying to keep the house from looking like a murder scene.) Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Make that t-shirts plural. Fun times...

Never heard of glueing ears to make them stand, but have definitely heard of taping ears to make them stand or fold down properly. In which case it needs to be done through teething if I remember right.

Personally I prefer the look of a proper fold on a dane and hound-type dogs. I like "rose" ears on needlenose sighthounds and on pitbulls. I would probably tape a houndy-headed dog with wacko ears. Done right it shouldn't cause the dog any more discomfort than a pup getting used to wearing a collar. 

Of course it's messing with what nature intended for the aesthetics of a human, but frankly, if we're going to get up in arms about that, we shouldn't even have specialized breeds period. JMO


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

jetsmum said:


> Maybe I'm being a bit naive here, but I would have thought if a dogs ears were supposed to sick up, then they would do, and artifical ways of getting them to do so wouldn't be needed.
> 
> I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I really don't understand why people want to change the appearance of their dogs in a permenant way. If you really want a dog to look a certain way,* then look round till you find one that fits the bill*.


You can't tell how their ears are gonna turn out though when they're pups - some will just fall right naturally and some won't, but if you're buying a pup then there's no way of knowing how the ears are going to turn out, and their breeding has very little to do with it as well unfortunately, it's just a gamble!



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I never suggested that it affected their health or hearing.
> 
> I simply suggested that surely what mattered was that a dog was healthy and that it had good hearing, ideally. As opposed to what matters being their ears standing up/standing down/sitting at right angles/whatever the hell they're 'meant' do to
> 
> You said you used 'weights' on your dog's ears? Wouldn't that be a tad uncomfortable? No offence intended - it's a genuine question.


It sounded as though you did - health is ALWAYS a priority over their ears so I don't see what relevance that comment had really as nobody said health was less important than their ears  we have taken Mabel into the ring with incorrect ears and still come out with 1sts, it's not the be all and end all, but it is very often picked up on. Obviously health comes before the positioning of the ears.

Nope, the weights were not uncomfortable at all - just small squares of cardboard that just tip the ends of the ears forward to where they should sit. Not at all 'heavy' in the sense that it would cause issue to the dog.

Tbh I would much rather be popping a plaster on my dogs ears than crop them as the americans often do... in the US they apparently crack the cartilage in the dogs ears to force them into place, now that IS cruel IMO.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> For the folk stating that gluing or taping ears it not uncomfortable for the dog - *how do you *know* that for sure*...?
> 
> Personally I would not dream of doing this nor would I be impressed if I witnessed someone else doing it. Surely what counts is that a dog is healthy with good hearing - isn't that more important?
> 
> When we had a Rough Collie, many years ago, we were told repeatedly that he was a stunning dog and could be shown if only his ears were 'right'. We never dreamed of taping or gluing or doing anything else to our dog's ears!


my poppet (and all yorkies for that matter!) are such drama queens that they would let you know for certain if it was bothering them... i mean, kuki will squeal if she Walks into your leg! popp didn't even flinch getting her ears glued... it'sd actually a Very common thing to be done during teething- if tyou still want to show the pup while it isd going through this phase that can last 6 months...



jetsmum said:


> ... If you really want a dog to look a certain way, then look round till you find one that fits the bill.


do you mean find a dog or a breed to 'fit the bill? if you mean breed, thats why we are talking about getting ears to stand, if its dog you mean, popets ears were up until she started teething- instead of trying massage and gluing should i have replaced the dog? (i am 99.99*% sure thats not what you mean, but just incase!)


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I think it's just one of those things that seems weird to people outside.

It's sort of like me fussing about exactly where Rex's head is in relation to my leg when most normal people are happy if the dog doesn't pull on the lead. Or me fussing about Rex being "dead straight" on a recall when most people are happy that the dog returns promptly. Obedience folk are weird to people who just want a reasonably well behaved dog!ut:

Rex's ears are seriously odd. I mean a GSD-looking dog with border collie ears is strange. I think it's cute, he doesn't care and Tess likes to bite them! Not knowing the show world I think that glueing his ears would be strange. I bet people who show would think my obsession with a straight recall strange.

I'm sure it's not cruel, done properly. Cropping ears is cruel, it hurts.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

When Dresden was younger, my breeder would occasionally mention about his ears, as one was a bit flyaway. He recommended just massaging them, but I do know dobe people who have weighted them with pennies and even one method of attaching tape to the bottom of the ears which join to zip ties and you then zip tie under the dog's chin so the ears are pulled down.
Looked ridiculous, and while perhaps not painful, would certainly be annoying and restricting for a young puppy.

Honestly? Aside from a bit of massaging, I thought all of it was ridiculous. He's not a show dog, I didn't care if he got 'flying nun' ears at all. He still has one that is a touch flyaway, more like a greyhound's than a dobe sometimes, but it doesn't detract from his good looks, in my mind, and Im sure no-one would notice or give a damn.
I guess I understand it more if the dog is a show dog, but not just for a family pet. 
I can't very well complain to people in the USA about ear cropping being extremely shallow and superficial, then go and take steps to make my own dogs ears conform to someone else's ideal. You either think looks matter, or you don't. And I don't, personally. I just care that he's healthy and happy.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Shadowrat said:


> I can't very well complain to people in the USA about ear cropping being extremely shallow and superficial, then go and take steps to make my own dogs ears conform to someone else's ideal. You either think looks matter, or you don't. And I don't, personally. I just care that he's healthy and happy.


i agree with most of what you're saying, but definitely not this... it's not the same. a wee bit of tape or glue cannot be compares to taking a knife to your puppys ears.


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## Guest (May 15, 2013)

Shadowrat said:


> You either think looks matter, or you don't. And I don't, personally.


Ah, but you must care about looks enough to have chosen a pure-bred dog who "looks" a certain way - like his breed. 

Honestly, I don't think anyone can say they don't care about looks. Sure, some might care less than others, but we are all drawn to certain dogs, and what the dog looks like does play a role in that attraction. For some it may be a minor role, for others a much larger role. But in the end I think we all care at least a little bit what our dogs look like.

As for cropping, there's just no comparison. Sticking a piece of tape or two on a dog's ears vs. general anesthesia on a puppy, scalpel and stitches. Sorry, but by just the risk factor alone, there is no comparison to me.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Ah, but you must care about looks enough to have chosen a pure-bred dog who "looks" a certain way - like his breed.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think anyone can say they don't care about looks. Sure, some might care less than others, but we are all drawn to certain dogs, and what the dog looks like does play a role in that attraction. For some it may be a minor role, for others a much larger role. But in the end I think we all care at least a little bit what our dogs look like.
> 
> *As for cropping, there's just no comparison. Sticking a piece of tape or two on a dog's ears vs. general anesthesia on a puppy, scalpel and stitches. Sorry, but by just the risk factor alone, there is no comparison to me.*


cropped pit... http://www.gopitbull.com/attachment...u-pay-get-your-dogs-ears-cropped-img_0286.jpg

glued poppet... (couldn't resist taking this one!!!!)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I wonder if dogs ears were taped or glued before they were shown? Or before showing became a popular hobby and it became more important for exhibitor's to win (or should that be their dogs)? And it's somehow become the norm with some breeds to *ensure* their dogs have the correct ear set?? 

I don't like it, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but if you're all mucking about with taping/gluing ears instead of breeding from dogs with the correct ear set/shape, surely you're introducing more variability to the ear set/shape, than you would want within the breed. And in that case are making the problem more widespread? So instead of breeding for the right shape, you simply breed and glue/tape to get the right shape. Because if the parents' ears were glued/taped, how do you know that they would have developed naturally into the correct shape or not? Nope, don't like it I'm afraid


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't like it, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but if you're all mucking about with taping/gluing ears instead of breeding from dogs with the correct ear set/shape, surely you're introducing more variability to the ear set/shape, than you would want within the breed. And in that case are making the problem more widespread? So instead of breeding for the right shape, you simply breed and glue/tape to get the right shape. Because if the parents' ears were glued/taped, how do you know that they would have developed naturally into the correct shape or not? Nope, don't like it I'm afraid


i have always assumed it is only used during teething to keep the ears up rather than fix an ear-set issue. if a dog has ears that are too big to ever stand on their own, i would agree that the ear is not correct and is a fault, but if the ear was a perfect V, then dropped/wavered during teething, surely gluing/taping would be forgivable?
chances are though, if the ear can't stand alone because of size or shape, taping isn't really going to make much difference...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> i have always assumed it is only used during teething to keep the ears up rather than fix an ear-set issue. if a dog has ears that are too big to ever stand on their own, i would agree that the ear is not correct and is a fault, but if the ear was a perfect V, then dropped/wavered during teething, surely gluing/taping would be forgivable?
> chances are though, if the ear can't stand alone because of size or shape, taping isn't really going to make much difference...


So why do it? If the ear isn't going to stand naturally on it's own, then there's no point in taping in any case? There are plenty of examples of breeds that don't need ear taping and their ears are erect? They do have a correct ear set/size/shape set out in the BS, but as long as it fits the description, and obviously the dog, then surely that's *correct*. I'm sure there are plenty of examples within the breeds that have taped ears where left to their own natural devices, the ears would develop as they should.

The only reason for taping ears is to *ensure* as far as possible, they are correct for the ring, whether or not they would have developed that way on their own in time. I personally think (as I said above) by taping/gluing, you are shooting yourself in the foot by introducing a *weakness* that you have no idea of knowing is present, you are guessing your dogs ears may not stand in the perceived correct way for the show ring, and so taping them to ensure they do, so how do you know the ears have a weakness or not?


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wonder if dogs ears were taped or glued before they were shown? Or before showing became a popular hobby and it became more important for exhibitor's to win (or should that be their dogs)? And it's somehow become the norm with some breeds to *ensure* their dogs have the correct ear set??
> 
> I don't like it, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but if you're all mucking about with taping/gluing ears instead of breeding from dogs with the correct ear set/shape, surely you're introducing more variability to the ear set/shape, than you would want within the breed. And in that case are making the problem more widespread? So instead of breeding for the right shape, you simply breed and glue/tape to get the right shape. Because if the parents' ears were glued/taped, how do you know that they would have developed naturally into the correct shape or not? Nope, don't like it I'm afraid


Meh... not everything has to go back to breedability or not. 
My dane girl is from a rescue litter, she has no papers, she is spayed, will never be bred from, and had she had wonky ears as a pup I would have taped them. I prefer the look and knowing her, she would have probably enjoyed the extra attention of getting them taped.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

But if you are breeding towards a correct ear set/size/shape etc, surely you should know what ears your dog has got, not tape them and then guess they'd be ok because the taping worked? 

Sorry, don't like it and have never understood why it's acceptable to tape a puppy's ears up.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The only reason for taping ears is to *ensure* as far as possible, they are correct for the ring, whether or not they would have developed that way on their own in time. I personally think (as I said above) by taping/gluing, you are shooting yourself in the foot by introducing a *weakness* that you have no idea of knowing is present, you are guessing your dogs ears may not stand in the perceived correct way for the show ring, and so taping them to ensure they do, so how do you know the ears have a weakness or not?


Honestly, if I were a breeder (and conversations like these are reason #347 why I'm not), I would be far more concerned with health and working ability than ear-set. If a show-proper ear set could be fixed with a few weeks in tapes, I don't think I'd worry too much about it as far as what I selected for breeding-wise. I mean, I guess if it came down to tow identical dogs except for ear-set, then yeah, maybe, but we all know that's not how these things pan out.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But if you are breeding towards a correct ear set/size/shape etc, surely you should know what ears your dog has got, not tape them and then guess they'd be ok because the taping worked?
> 
> Sorry, don't like it and have never understood why it's acceptable to tape a puppy's ears up.


But I'm not breeding, so your hypothetical is meaningless to me.

I'd put a pup in tapes before I'd put a pup on a slip lead which is done in the show world all the time. We all have things we will never understand why they're acceptable


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Honestly, if I were a breeder (and conversations like these are reason #347 why I'm not), I would be far more concerned with health and working ability than ear-set. If a show-proper ear set could be fixed with a few weeks in tapes, I don't think I'd worry too much about it as far as what I selected for breeding-wise. I mean, I guess if it came down to tow identical dogs except for ear-set, then yeah, maybe, but we all know that's not how these things pan out.


I am concerned with health and temperament, ear set is important to some extent as it *was* originally set to be a certain shape to keep the ears as healthy and clean as possible. Of course that's not always the case, of mine, Indie suffers the most with water getting in her ears, and they can then get pretty mucky and horrible. Where they are on their head, what shape they are and how they fall should give them the best protection for a *working* breed, of course many are not now worked so it's difficult there to assess if they still actually do. But a basic fault like ears being too weak to stand on their own, carried through numerous generations until they have to be taped because they are no longer able to stand, is something that should be bred for, not taped for, JMO.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am concerned with health and temperament, ear set is important to some extent as it *was* originally set to be a certain shape to keep the ears as healthy and clean as possible. Of course that's not always the case, of mine, Indie suffers the most with water getting in her ears, and they can then get pretty mucky and horrible. Where they are on their head, what shape they are and how they fall should give them the best protection for a *working* breed, of course many are not now worked so it's difficult there to assess if they still actually do. But a basic fault like ears being too weak to stand on their own, carried through numerous generations until they have to be taped because they are no longer able to stand, is something that should be bred for, not taped for, JMO.


If the ear is too weak to stand, no amount of taping is going to fix that. Taping just tweaks a tendency that's already there. You can't tape a lab ear in to a GSD ear or vice versa. Not going to happen with tape. You'd need surgery for that, and that's not what we're talking about.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

ouesi said:


> If the ear is too weak to stand, no amount of taping is going to fix that. Taping just tweaks a tendency that's already there. You can't tape a lab ear in to a GSD ear or vice versa. Not going to happen with tape. You'd need surgery for that, and that's not what we're talking about.


this is what i'm getting at (albeit badly  ) if the ear has always completely flopped when is should be erect then tape isn't going to do anything. if the ear is standing at an early age and then drops (like during teething or because the hair needs trimmed and is weighing the ear down) it probably Should be up. in my case, i didn't believe that the taping would worked, so only did half the time, but yet with all by keeping her ears trimmed, at 11 1/2 months her ears popped up and stayed there... if i had of wanted her in the show ring as a pup though, the ears would of had to be erect because, lets face it- with Some breeds it is just a beauty contest!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> If the ear is too weak to stand, no amount of taping is going to fix that. Taping just tweaks a tendency that's already there. You can't tape a lab ear in to a GSD ear or vice versa. Not going to happen with tape. You'd need surgery for that, and that's not what we're talking about.


Sorry, but taping just tweaks a tendency? If the ear is correct in the first place, it shouldn't need taping, and that is my whole point. You breed for a correct ear in the first place. The only reason to tape an ear is for appearances sake, if you tape an incorrect ear and a correct ear, just in case you may not end up with the *look* you want, or that will give your dog the edge against another dog in the show ring, then you will never know if what you've got is correct or not. It just *tends* to be the right set because you've taped it.

Have to agree to disagree, as I've said, I think you're doing the dogs a disservice by not knowing whether a *fault* is actually there or not.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Just going to be a devil's advocate here S_L (aka pain in the @ss). Maybe it's better to tape and keep a more diverse breeding pool than restrict the breeding pool by only breeding from perfect-ear-set dogs?????

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

SL is correct in my opinion , all glueing or taping does is mask a problem until it eventually becomes so widespread within a breed that artificially fixing it becomes the norm and very few dogs retain the correct ears naturally.

We have this in my breed, on the continent male pups are routinely given an injection of Gonodatrophin to bring down the testicles, this hides the lines that are genetically monorchid and when these dogs are imported and used in the UK where we do not give the injection they have been responsible for a huge increase in monorchid dogs. It's a short tem fix that can have a very long term impact on breeds.

If we want good ears we must breed for them ...and yes this will mean restricting our choices to dogs that genetically have good ears , but then is'nt the whole point of dog breeding about selecting for the traits we want ?


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Ah, but you must care about looks enough to have chosen a pure-bred dog who "looks" a certain way - like his breed.


Honestly, I chose a dobe because of the temperament and personality far more than looks.
I know people might find that hard to believe, as I know looks do factor into dog breed choice if only a tiny bit, but I honestly didn't really care about the look of the breed much at all. It was the temperament, nature, the suitability to my lifestyle and what I wanted from a dog that ticked all the boxes for me.

If I'd been swayed by looks, I'd have gone with a husky, or a GSD, or something fluffy and prick eared as those have been the dogs I always found most visually appealing. In fact, as a kid, I had a 'thing' about smooth coated drop eared breeds and really didn't like them much at all. I could never, ever see myself having one.
I like 'wolfy' looking dogs (for wont of a better word) really.

But when I got to know some dobes, did some research, etc I found their nature and temperament much to my liking. It was only after I'd fallen in love with this aspect of them that I began to see beauty in their appearance, rather than the other way around, if you know what I mean.

I mean, I don't have an issue with anyone picking a breed based partly on looks (as long as that isn't the _only_ thing they base it on!) and I totally get it but it just didn't happen like that for me, really.
He is a beautiful dog, but my appreciation for the looks of the breed came after falling in love with their mind first.

And as for saying ear taping is not comparable to cropping, oh yes, I realise that. Cropping is far more invasive, painful, all round far more 'cruel' than taping, I do get that. Its not comparable in that sense.
But its a similar mind set of 'I need my dog's ears to look a certain way, and will take X steps to get them looking that way', regardless of what those steps are, rather than saying 'this is how my dog looks, and I love him regardless'.
I'd feel a bit of a hypocrite if I slammed people who crop for being so superficial and not being able to be happy with the dog as it was, then going and demonstrating the same mindset of not being happy with my dogs ears the way they are. I hope that makes sense?

Overall, I don't think ear taping is cruel (but the method I described with the zip ties was bordering on it, in my mind) but its not something I would do, no matter what the dog's ears looked like. It just.....doesn't matter enough on a family pet. A show dog, maybe.
I wouldn't care if Dresdens ears were upright (have seen a couple of dobes with weirdly natural standing ears, or sort of standing!) or if they both went off at random angles all over the place, or if one was white and one was ginger, it wouldn't matter.

Not saying its wrong for people to care, just because I personally don't. I can see why people do, I suppose, if you get a breed because the look of that breed is extremely appealing, and you only have to take small steps to 'perfect' that look, I can understand people doing so. 
Its just not for me. I don't care enough.

But I don't care if other people _do_ care.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, but taping just tweaks a tendency? If the ear is correct in the first place, it shouldn't need taping, and that is my whole point. You breed for a correct ear in the first place. *The only reason to tape an ear is for appearances sake,* if you tape an incorrect ear and a correct ear, just in case you may not end up with the *look* you want, or that will give your dog the edge against another dog in the show ring, then you will never know if what you've got is correct or not. It just *tends* to be the right set because you've taped it.
> 
> Have to agree to disagree, as I've said, I think you're doing the dogs a disservice by not knowing whether a *fault* is actually there or not.


Yes, it's ALL about appearance. Personally, the appearance of an ear is not so important to me that I would prefer to see a great dog removed from the gene pool just because of a wonky ear. I'd rather see that ear it taped.

Breed only for ear cartilage that folds correctly? Seriously? This is the kind of nit-picky-ness on insignificant parts of appearance that gives show breeding a bad name.

Clearly you don't have experience with taping because taping doesn't create an erect ear from a floppy ear. It's not like cropping. If the ear isn't going to stand on it's own, no amount of taping will make it stand. Likewise you can't make an erect ear floppy. It's not like I can go out and get a GSD pup, tape the ears down and end up with a dog with folded ears. Taping doesn't work that way. 
You're not masking a "fault" LOL. I mean by that logic, we shouldn't groom dogs for shows. We should only breed from dogs who's nails don't grow too long, who's coat grow naturally in to a show cut etc. etc.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Yes, it's ALL about appearance. Personally, the appearance of an ear is not so important to me that I would prefer to see a great dog removed from the gene pool just because of a wonky ear. I'd rather see that ear it taped.
> 
> Breed only for ear cartilage that folds correctly? Seriously? This is the kind of nit-picky-ness on insignificant parts of appearance that gives show breeding a bad name.
> 
> ...


So if you're not taping an ear that doesn't stand correctly on it's own, why are you taping it at all? I am genuinely baffled as to why you tape ears if they are going to stand absolutely fine on their own, then surely there's no need?

I am completely against overgrooming/trimming dogs for shows and am pretty vociferous about it (no surprise there  ), I see the logic in tidying up a dog so that a judge can see the bits they are meant to, AND as a general maintenance, which would include clipping nails. Taping ears up doesn't fall into that category, you're doing something to your dog to alter the appearance, but by your argument there's no point to it in any case because you only tape ears that would stand on their own in any case 

I've recently caused consternation on a flatcoat group by posting about shaving the front of flatcoats, which has become popular in Europe. The ONLY reason it's done is to try and make the prow shaped chest more obvious, some exhibitors shave the coat round the neck and top of the chest (and sometimes other areas). If you train/work your dogs, and want to send them into cover, then for me, taking the protective coat from the front of your dog's chest/throat is simply reprehensible, and shows ignorance of what the dog was bred to do, because *you* like the appearance the altered coat gives it.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Alfie's ears were weighted with a small dab of clay/blu tac.

He has naturally tipped ears as his father and mother did too, but when teething they can fly and do not always go back to tipped because of the built up muscle. He does have the tipped gene, he had them without anything on them after about eight months and they are still tipped now and not overly folded like others who have had to do a lot to tip it, just the top part. Believe me when an ear wants to go up there is nothing you can do.

I will be honest enough to say that yes I did do it for a look. Not a showing look, Alfie has not and will never be shown, I just think it gives a very much sweeter collie eye with the tipped ears as opposed to prick, but lets face it, we choose our breeds because they have a look we like.

ETA, Alfie being the fusspot he was as a puppy and hated grooming etc, didn't even notice it on his ear and never even scratched it!!!


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Bijou said:


> SL is correct in my opinion , all glueing or taping does is mask a problem until it eventually becomes so widespread within a breed that artificially fixing it becomes the norm and very few dogs retain the correct ears naturally.
> 
> We have this in my breed, on the continent male pups are routinely given an injection of Gonodatrophin to bring down the testicles, this hides the lines that are genetically monorchid and when these dogs are imported and used in the UK where we do not give the injection they have been responsible for a huge increase in monorchid dogs. It's a short tem fix that can have a very long term impact on breeds.
> 
> If we want good ears we must breed for them ...and yes this will mean restricting our choices to dogs that genetically have good ears , but then is'nt the whole point of dog breeding about selecting for the traits we want ?


Again, apples to oranges comparison there. Taping is not the same thing as injecting a dog with hormones. Sorry, but that's just laughable. 
Taping is more like putting a standard poodle in a show cut vs. a puppy cut. Yes, it changes the dog's appearance, but it's all external. Taping doesn't change where the ear sits on the skull. You're not masking anything that the judge can't put hands on and see for him/her self. I can tape ears, but the judge is still going to get his/her hands on the ear leather and judge how thick it is. The judge is still going to see where the ear sits on the head, etc.

And taping is not at all unpleasant to the dog - done right. It's really just like a dog getting used to having a collar around his/her neck. They might notice it at first, some pups scratch at the collar until they get used to it, but it's not painful, or even unpleasant really. Personally I find it far more upsetting to string a dog up on a grooming table for hours to get them show ready than to put a few strips of tape on an ear and then let the dog go about his business.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> this is what i'm getting at (albeit badly  ) if the ear has always completely flopped when is should be erect then tape isn't going to do anything. if the ear is standing at an early age and then drops (like during teething or because the hair needs trimmed and is weighing the ear down) it probably Should be up. in my case, i didn't believe that the taping would worked, so only did half the time, but yet with all by keeping her ears trimmed, at 11 1/2 months her ears popped up and stayed there... if i had of wanted her in the show ring as a pup though, the ears would of had to be erect because, lets face it- *with Some breeds it's just a beauty contest* !


That's what showing is with all breeds, not just some - Showing is a beauty contest.

Some show people/breeders pay lip service to temperament, but temperament is usually sacrificed on the altar of beauty, I've seen some really nasty tempered dogs that have won their classes because their beauty means more to the judge of the day than their temperament does. I've never seen a dog that has won it's class with ears that didn't conform to that particular breed standard. Some show people will move heaven and earth to get the 'perfect' dog and hence to win, if that means taping/gluing it's ears through the pups teething stage then that is what they will do, regardless whether the dog is feeling any discomfort or not. Never mind waiting to show the 'afflicted' dog until it's finished teething, no, their dog has got to win puppy classes. Any judge worth his/her salt should take into account a dog's age and what a dog should look like at that age. But, sadly showing is not an ideal world, never was and never will be.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Isn't nit pickiness kind of the point of show breeding though?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

tabulahrasa said:


> Isn't nit pickiness kind of the point of show breeding though?


Not for every one, I want function and form, I don't want a clone of every other dog in the show ring, and if they have some points that aren't as good as they should be, then if I bred from them, I'd look to try and improve that through matching to a dog that would have the potential to give me the improvements I thought were needed. But I very much want dogs that do what they were bred to do as well, I know that's not possible for every breed, but it's important for me with my breeds.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So if you're not taping an ear that doesn't stand correctly on it's own, why are you taping it at all? I am genuinely baffled as to why you tape ears if they are going to stand absolutely fine on their own, then surely there's no need?


Taping is the difference between this:


















And this:


















To be fair, I did not tape the bitch's ears, they did that on their own, but had they gone wonky while she was teething, I would have. The male I did not get until he was an adult so taping would have been pointless.

But as you can see, both dogs have ears that fold down. Taping doesn't change that. It's HOW they fold down that you can affect with taping.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

tabulahrasa said:


> Isn't nit pickiness kind of the point of show breeding though?


It has become that, sadly, but it shouldn't be. 
When we start worrying about things like the fold of an ear or the size and location of spots, instead of focusing on the dog's overall structure, temperament, and health, yeah, it's detrimental nit-picky-ness IMO.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

What I mean is that it's about nit picking compared to what the average pet owner wants or needs.

Brock has a little white patch on his chest - that alone makes him totally unsuitable for breeding and while it'd only mark him down here, in some countries it disqualifies them from showing.

It's not huge, in fact it's hardly noticeable at all, it means nothing to me other than a nice wee individual mark...but for someone wanting to show and breed it would make him pretty useless.

I don't see why ears are any different to that is what I mean.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Well I don't personally see how ear taping can be compared to ear cropping. Ear cropping requires surgery, anesthetiser, stitches, pain management, then posting for a year afterwards in some breed.

Taping dobermann natural is a piece of tape under the chin for 1-2 weeks! Absolutely no pain, mine havnt fussed it at all and I don't pull any hair out.

The standard calls for small ears, small ears tend to be flyaway. If we bred for heavy, larger ears this would be against the standard too. In an ideal world, we would only breed dogs with perfect ears. 60% of Dobermanns will die of DCM, a large proportion will die of cancer, plenty will develop HD, wobblers and the rest. Ears are pretty low down my list of requirements TBH. 

Taping really improves the expression and look IMO, and I personally would compare it more to a grooming type practise, like putting hair bands in the hair. I can see why someone wouldn't like it.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Glueing a dogs ears can help with heelwork... but only if you glue them to your trousers.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

diefenbaker said:


> Glueing a dogs ears can help with heelwork... but only if you glue them to your trousers.


No silly. You have to breed only from dogs who heel perfectly without glueing. If you have to glue them in to a heel you're masking a genetic problem.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> No silly. You have to breed only from dogs who heel perfectly without glueing. If you have to glue them in to a heel you're masking a genetic problem.


How dare you suggest I have a genetic problem.. although I might have a hard time finding someone on here to disagree you. Just to put the mind at ease of anyone who thought I was being serious.. I do not glue my dogs ears to my trousers and to prove it I will going on this afternoon's walk in my white Speedos.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There really is no need for sarcasm just because someone has a different viewpoint, if that's really the only argument you have, it just shows that you have no argument at all for taping ears. 

------------------------------------------------------------

Dober, surely when the breed standard was written, they didn't expect that you would have to tape ears as a matter of course so that the dogs fit the breed standard they had just written? Surely this is something that has crept in because there is an intolerance in the showring for anything not perceived as perfect. 

Past evidence for Labradors shows a greater variety in the show ring, and yet they must all have fit the general breed standard as it was interpreted then, I wonder if a pressure to have all dogs fit a more narrow perception of a breed standard has pushed for some exhibitors to accept this sort of procedure without thinking about where it might lead in the future?


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There really is no need for sarcasm just because someone has a different viewpoint, if that's really the only argument you have, it just shows that you have no argument at all for taping ears.


 Oh for Pete's sake.... I was having a little fun with Dief. Injecting a little levity in to the conversation. 
You seem to fail to grasp the concept that I have no dog in this fight (pardon the pun), I'm not a breeder, my great danes are rescues with no pedigree, my "show" dog is a mutt shown in obedience and rally. 
All I'm saying is that taping is not a big deal. Especially not when you consider that so many show dogs have to stand strung up on a grooming table for HOURS. Or when you consider that so many dogs are shown on slip leads cranked tight right under their chin.
And to compare taping to cropping or injecting with hormones is just plain ludicrous, sorry. Or to worry about "where this all might lead" is equally silly. The sky is falling syndrome. It's a lousy piece of tape. Don't like it? Don't tape. Simple.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Alfie's ears were weighted with a small dab of clay/blu tac.
> 
> He has naturally tipped ears as his father and mother did too, but when teething they can fly and do not always go back to tipped because of the built up muscle. He does have the tipped gene, he had them without anything on them after about eight months and they are still tipped now and not overly folded like others who have had to do a lot to tip it, just the top part. Believe me when an ear wants to go up there is nothing you can do.
> 
> ...


I can agree the Rough Collie being such as sensitive soul would let you know in no uncertain terms if he/she was uncomfortable. Mine cried solidly for 5 days and nights  each time he had surgery despite the vet throwing every pain killer he had at him. A puppy will show discomfort by rubbing and scratching even if they don't cry.

To be honest this needs research as to whether taping and weighting really has any effect.

I wonder if there is a brave breeder out there the would randomly allocate their puppies to tape and no tape groups, follow them up and have zoologists, vets and behaviourists monitor both groups. They would need to do this for at least 100 litters.

To the original poster I don't know anything about how to tape but I hope someone gives you good advice that keeps you and your dog happy.

Personally if the dog is comfortable I don't see an issue, but we must keep comfort in mind. Certainly my little cross breed would have begged me to tape her ears up if it would have increased the airflow in her ears and reduce the number of times I have to clean them out.

In fact to our little research project we need to monitor ear problem rates in both groups throughout the dogs life. Boy I wish I could do this research!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Oh for Pete's sake.... I was having a little fun with Dief. Injecting a little levity in to the conversation.
> You seem to fail to grasp the concept that I have no dog in this fight (pardon the pun), I'm not a breeder, my great danes are rescues with no pedigree, my "show" dog is a mutt shown in obedience and rally.
> All I'm saying is that taping is not a big deal. Especially not when you consider that so many show dogs have to stand strung up on a grooming table for HOURS. Or when you consider that so many dogs are shown on slip leads cranked tight right under their chin.
> And to compare taping to cropping or injecting with hormones is just plain ludicrous, sorry. Or to worry about "where this all might lead" is equally silly. The sky is falling syndrome. It's a lousy piece of tape. Don't like it? Don't tape. Simple.


Sorry Ouesi, but I don't see it as flippantly as you obviously do. In the same way I don't like seeing dogs in fancy dress, or in handbags. I also don't like seeing dogs groomed excessively (already gone over that one) or strung up, and refuse to string either of my dogs up when showing, despite it being promoted. Mine are free standing, and free moving.

I haven't compared taping to any surgical alterations 



Picklelily said:


> I can agree the Rough Collie being such as sensitive soul would let you know in no uncertain terms if he/she was uncomfortable. Mine cried solidly for 5 days and nights  each time he had surgery despite the vet throwing every pain killer he had at him. A puppy will show discomfort by rubbing and scratching even if they don't cry.
> 
> To be honest this needs research as to whether taping and weighting really has any effect.
> 
> ...


I think it would be a brave breeder indeed who did pull off that sort of experiment.

And yes, there are other issues with ears, one that isn't widely known about is how hairy the ears are, I know some people who pluck hairs out of the inner ear, if those hairs grow on down into the ear canal, they can cause constantly mucky ears unfortunately.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry Ouesi, but I don't see it as flippantly as you obviously do. In the same way I don't like seeing dogs in fancy dress, or in handbags. I also don't like seeing dogs groomed excessively (already gone over that one) or strung up, and refuse to string either of my dogs up when showing, despite it being promoted. Mine are free standing, and free moving.


Not flippant, rather understanding that there are vast areas of grey. This is not a black and white argument with only one way of seeing things.

Like I said, I would have taped my rescue girl who will never be bred. It's not masking any genetic issues, it's not doggy torture, it's really not the big huge deal you seem to think it is. 
FWIW, I also dress the giant dane boy in cute bandanas and jester collars when he does therapy dog visits because it makes him less intimidating. He doesn't find that torturous either.

I don't know if you actually think that way, but you post in a very black/white, right/wrong tone, and it makes it sound like you don't understand the difference between a rescue pup getting taped for a few weeks and a show dog being physically altered to mask a fault. Or that you don't understand the difference between a therapy dog wearing a jester collar to the children's floor of a hospital versus a purse dog being treated like an acessory.

It has been several posts now where you "agreed to disagree" yet you keep hounding this same point. I'm not going to agree with you if for no other reason than my perspective is entirely different than yours. I'm not a breeder, I'm not interested in breeding, and even if I were, I can promise I would not be selecting for ear leather. That's just not something I can ever see mattering at all in the well-being of a dog or a breed. 
I'm okay with us not seeing eye to eye. Are you?



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't compared taping to any surgical alterations


No, you did not. You just "liked" the post that did


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> It has become that, sadly, but it shouldn't be.
> *When we start worrying about things like the fold of an ear or the size and location of spots, instead of focusing on the dog's overall structure, temperament, and health, yeah, it's detrimental nit-picky-ness IMO*.


But surely it's those that tape and/or glue that are 'nit picking' ? No offence intended


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> But surely it's those that tape and/or glue that are 'nit picking' ? No offence intended


Oh sure, definitely being nit-picky about how your dog looks. But I was talking about breeding - selecting for a certain type of ear leather. That's ridiculous to me. If I have a dog with fabulous structure, ideal temperament, excellent health, I don't give a flying flamingo what kind of ear leather that dog has. IOW, I don't see the point of breeding for ear leather.

It's like portugese water dogs or lowchens, I happen to think the cut looks kind of stupid looking, but breed enthusiasts love it. Big whoop-de-doo. I sure don't think the dog suffers or cares one way or another if you shave the rump or not, and you're certainly not going to breed for dogs who grow less fur on their rear ends. It's just a style point.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

A dog's ear size, set and carriage is just as much a breed trait as things like eye shape, tail set or coat texture colour and markings. All these things need to be bred for in order to retain breed type . The Dalmatian's spots, the Bouvier's harsh coat or the Weimeraner's unique colour all have no impact on health , temperament or construction yet are defining attributes of their respective breeds. 

Dog shows are not simply beauty pageants but a tool to enable breeders to select the best matches for their dogs , coat dyes, artificial texturisers or taped ears cannot be passed on genetically ....so what on earth is the point of doing them ?


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Bijou said:


> A dog's ear size, set and carriage is just as much a breed trait as things like eye shape, tail set or coat texture colour and markings.


But taping doesn't affect the ear's size - so nothing being masked there.
Taping doesn't affect where the ear sits on the skull.
Taping doesn't affect the ear's overall shape. Pointy tips will still be pointy, rounded tips will still be round. Triangles will still be triangles. Taping doesn't affect any of that. Cropping does, but taping natural ears does not.

And again, you're failing to take in to account that plenty of taped dogs are never shown, and never bred. Not everything has to go back to breeding. Some of us - MOST of us have dogs who we have no intention of ever breeding or showing. If we want to slap a few strips of elastikon on the dog's ears, we don't need the show purists telling us not to because it bastardizes the breed somehow.



Bijou said:


> The Dalmatian's spots, the Bouvier's harsh coat or the Weimeraner's unique colour all have no impact on health , temperament or construction yet are defining attributes of their respective breeds.


Playing devil's adocate here (as I do agree about defining attributes), but technically, coat color does affect health when you start looking at merle genes and sensory defects, and dilutes and skin problems.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

One of my pups ears didn't stand up like the others so I put a baby bath sponge in it and taped it with micropore tape. Checked every couple of days and removed it after two weeks.

It went from this:









To this:









Well worth the effort, the cartilage just needed a little help to strengthen. She was five months old but later than seven/eight months may be too late to change anything.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Oh sure, definitely being nit-picky about how your dog looks. But I was talking about breeding - selecting for a certain type of ear leather. That's ridiculous to me. If I have a dog with fabulous structure, ideal temperament, excellent health, I don't give a flying flamingo what kind of ear leather that dog has. IOW, I don't see the point of breeding for ear leather.


I largely agree; it is so much important for the 'total package'; structure, type, working ability (if a working breed), temperament health ect ect.

I do think it's important in my breed to have correct ears though; I think it really changes the expression quite a lot. I think big ears give a very 'houndy' expression, and flyaway ears just look less alert to me. But I don't think one thing should be at the expensive of everything else. I think we should be breeding _towards_ perfect ears. I think incorrect ears are a fault like any other fault, and it's down to interpretation as to how big of a fault it is, like shoulder placement, tail set, feet, eyes and the rest!

Before taping:





After:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

As long as it doesn't physically hurt the dog and mutilation isn't involved I don't have an issue. Wrong ears alter the entire appearance of a dog and if someone wants a particular breed I would think they'd want one that looks the way it should. 

Amber looked so dopey (sorry sweetheart) with her floppy ear and now she's just like her bro's - whose ears were all standing up from six weeks old. I've seen pure bred Mals with two floppy ears and they just don't look like Mals, more like cross breeds, shame for such a small issue earlier on.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

People have different priorities. 
Ultimately, if it doesn't bother the dog, Im sure it doesn't matter. It just doesn't match _my_ view point on my animals, ie, trying to alter how they look for aesthetic reasons only. I care how Dresden's ears look about as much as I care how my human best friend's ears look.....which isn't at all.

Even if it doesn't hurt the animal and they couldn't care less, its just something I don't feel compelled to do, it's like I'd be saying my animal wasn't good enough beforehand, or wasn't 'right' or wasn't 'how it should be', which I think should only matter if you're showing, and I find an uncomfortable mindset to have toward a companion animal.
For me, anyway. But Im a softy.

I never taped Dresden. Did consider it when my breeder kept talking about it, but in the end just decided it didn't actually matter to me.
His ears, for the most part, sorted themselves out anyway. Not 'perfect' but near as damn it:










Though they still do this occasionally:










But to be honest? Thats just absolutely fine, by me. I love his ears. They're just.....Dresden. I don't look at them and think 'damn, wish we'd sorted them'. I just think 'aaaaaw, Dresssy ears!'


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I like a pure bred dog to look at least somewhat to how it should and if that means taping an ear or two then so be it. A GSD, Husky, Mal, Malinois etc just doesn't look right with floppy ears and although a Dobe def looks better with 'correct' ears it's not quite as noticeable as a dog with floppy ears that should be erect. I can see the difference though and why some prefer ears closer to the head, if you're showing I'd imagine a Dobe wouldn't do too well with sticking out ears - no more than a Mal with floppy ones, well it just wouldn't be shown.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Bijou said:


> A dog's ear size, set and carriage is just as much a breed trait as things like eye shape, tail set or coat texture colour and markings. All these things need to be bred for in order to retain breed type . The Dalmatian's spots, the Bouvier's harsh coat or the Weimeraner's unique colour all have no impact on health , temperament or construction yet are defining attributes of their respective breeds.
> 
> Dog shows are not simply beauty pageants but a tool to enable breeders to select the best matches for their dogs , coat dyes, artificial texturisers or taped ears cannot be passed on genetically ....so what on earth is the point of doing them ?


I guess breeders do all that stuff because they want to win, if a breed standard says a whippet should have an ear shaped like a rosebud that is what breeders will aim for - basically because the judge is supposed to judge a dog to a breed standard. Of course, taping can artificially alter a dogs ear, even if only for a limited time. I've seen whippet handlers frantically trying to remove all manner of artificial means of holding the ears in shape before entering the show ring with a certain dog. I've seen a whippet breeder, putting a small ball bearing in a lump of chewing gum and attaching it to the dogs ear, to try and hold the ear in shape.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't compared taping to any surgical alterations
> 
> I think it would be a brave breeder indeed who did pull off that sort of experiment.
> 
> And yes, there are other issues with ears, one that isn't widely known about is how hairy the ears are, I know some people who pluck hairs out of the inner ear, if those hairs grow on down into the ear canal, they can cause constantly mucky ears unfortunately.


It would be this is exactly what would have to be done in order to reasonable answer these questions.

I would certainly want to see an assessment comparing behaviour during taping. It would certainly resolve this argument.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Elles doesn't have perfect looking border collie ears, but she twizzles them, puts them up, puts them down, flattens them against her head when she runs etc. I would have thought if her ears were glued as a pup she would naturally want to move them about and wouldn't be able to. It might not bother her much and I expect she'd get used to it, but I still wouldn't do it.

I used to watch Susan Garrett vids and thought she was quite good, until she did the puppy classes online with her new collie pup and had his ears glued. Put me off altogether, she's doing agility, why on earth do her dogs need special ear sets?

Okay, so maybe I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but it makes me cringe, so I don't watch her any more. 

There's plenty of vids online showing how to glue and stitch border collie ears together, I don't like it personally, though I can quite understand that a showing enthusiast may want to make sure of the perfect ear set with cosmetic techniques and I would agree it's in a different league and much better than cropping, even if it's not for me.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

It would really be lovely if we could only breed from dogs who have naturally 'correct' ears but it still DOESN'T guarantee that you will get puppies with correct earsets. As has been said many times on this thread, taping is mostly done during teething to support the correct shape of the ears - this was Mabel at 8 weeks old, her ears here are perfect and had never seen glue or tape:










Yet when she started teething - they went like this:










So it's not that her ears are 'wrong', just that they can do all sorts during teething and need to be supported otherwise they are likely to stay like that! Nothing to do with the ears actually being wrong!

And as someone else said, i'd much rather people bred from dogs with a variety of earsets rather than JUST those with perfect ears, as they are so few and far between that the gene pool would be impossibly small. And also, it's virtually impossible to tell whether a dog really does have natural ears or not, taping is often done before the dog reaches 6 months and can show, so how are people to know that a dogs ears are naturally correct or not? Not everyone is honest about these things.

As it is, Mabels ears are slightly too big so they don't fall as well as a lot of other Manchesters ears do, but to remedy that if we were to breed from her, we would try and select a dog that had a smaller earset to try and balance it out (as well as being a complementary match in every other way, obviously) just as you would when trying to better any other breed of dog in any other way.


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## EAD (May 10, 2013)

Definitely not something I'd ever consider doing but then I wouldnt care if my dogs ears where up/down or stuck out sideways.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

EAD said:


> Definitely not something I'd ever consider doing but then I wouldnt care if my dogs ears where up/down or stuck out sideways.


You probably would if you paid a fortune for it and wanted to show though. 

I don't think it's unreasonable when buying a pedigree dog to want it to look like it's breed, it's not vanity it's just how it *should* look for the breed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Tigerneko said:


> It would really be lovely if we could only breed from dogs who have naturally 'correct' ears but it still DOESN'T guarantee that you will get puppies with correct earsets.


I'm not surprised to be honest, because no-one knows if the ear set is correct because it's been taped into position, or if it's been allowed to develop naturally. You have, and I use this comparison loosely, several generations of *carriers* ie you have no idea whether their ear set is right because it was born that way, or because it's been *tweaked* to correct it. You're loosing the knowledge of what is a correctly bred ear set, and what you just breed and will correct because everyone else does it that way.

If you look at the overall conformation of a dog, not one is perfect and you breed towards improvement (hopefully) in those areas where your dog has slight weaknesses. How would you know where to begin with a breed that has had years of ear taping? Your dog may have a correct ear set having been taped as a pup, the dam and sire might have had a correct ear set because they'd been taped as a pup, so what will the pups be?

You really don't know, and because of the desire to win in the show ring, or at least compete with a dog that others won't tut and shake their heads at because it's ears aren't quite right, nobody is willing to leave their dogs alone to develop naturally.

I couldn't give two hoots if people shake their heads and tut at my dogs because I'm unwilling to put extra weight on them, or groom them to excess because that's what wins. I'd rather take a dog in the ring that hasn't been fiddled with just to comply with what the show ring says we *must* have. I hate the way the show world sullies our minds into believing we have to have perfect dogs, and any slight imperfections are frowned upon.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

exactly ...unless we breed for the traits we want then they will be eventually be lost.



> A GSD, Husky, Mal, Malinois etc just doesn't look right with floppy ears


but if this fault is disguised by gluing or taping then the gene for floppy ears will be passed on throughout the breed.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not surprised to be honest, because no-one knows if the ear set is correct because it's been taped into position, or if it's been allowed to develop naturally. You have, and I use this comparison loosely, several generations of *carriers* ie you have no idea whether their ear set is right because it was born that way, or because it's been *tweaked* to correct it. You're loosing the knowledge of what is a correctly bred ear set, and what you just breed and will correct because everyone else does it that way.
> 
> If you look at the overall conformation of a dog, not one is perfect and you breed towards improvement (hopefully) in those areas where your dog has slight weaknesses. How would you know where to begin with a breed that has had years of ear taping? Your dog may have a correct ear set having been taped as a pup, the dam and sire might have had a correct ear set because they'd been taped as a pup, so what will the pups be?
> 
> You really don't know, and because of the desire to win in the show ring, or at least compete with a dog that others won't tut and shake their heads at because it's ears aren't quite right, nobody is willing to leave their dogs alone to develop naturally.


Isn't that pretty similar to Rotties tails - in that because of docking a really common fault is Rotties with curly tails, which was suddenly an issue when docking was no longer allowed.

Breeders are now having to consider whether tails are right - Brock has a curly tail (He's a fantastic example of the breed, rofl) it works exactly as a tail should, he can hold it out behind him so if if needs it for balance it works fine, it wags when he wants it to and goes underneath his body to display fear or general unhappiness...it just happens to sit over his back a lot of the time, it's just considered wrong for his breed.

Isn't a floppy ear that should stand up the same?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

To some extent yes, I'd agree, you can train a dog to some extent how to hold their tail, for the show ring for example, Labradors are trained to stand and wag, that's what the judge wants to see. I'm rubbish at training a stand, I simply enjoy training the gundog stuff more, but I do my best although it's not very good, to get my dogs to stand nicely. It's a fault with flatcoats for them to wave their tail like a flag high up, something my bitch does, but it doesn't bother me unduly. I actually like to see her tail wagging, doesn't matter hugely to me whether it's high, because when she's working and hunting for a retrieve, it's just wonderful to watch that tail go ten to the dozen.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

See I quite like Brock's curly tail - even though it's not correct...it gives him a whole extra expression, it means he's happy and alert but nothing is happening to make him wag.

Not that he needs it, he's got a very expressive face, lol, but as someone who just wants a dog as a pet - I don't see it as being much different to ears being in the wrong position.

If you're breeding to improve, I don't see much difference between a tail being functional but in the wrong position and ears being functional and in the wrong position.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SL from what I read you seem to dislike most of the show world and all that goes with it, I do wonder why you do it if you are so down on it.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

ouesi said:


> No silly. You have to breed only from dogs who heel perfectly without glueing. If you have to glue them in to a heel you're masking a genetic problem.


I've got a Velcro dog


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Emmaviolet all I can say is if that's your opinion then you really haven't read my posts in context, and as you don't know me then to form such an opinion based on misreading what I've put across this one thread, as opposed to the many times I've posted on this forum supporting ethical breeding, showing dogs and competing with them fairly across all competetive activities, and enjoying it because your dog is a good, functional, healthy example of the breed, then that one sentence is quite a sad and biased opinion.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Emmaviolet all I can say is if that's your opinion then you really haven't read my posts in context, and as you don't know me then to form such an opinion based on misreading what I've put across this one thread, as opposed to the many times I've posted on this forum supporting ethical breeding, showing dogs and competing with them fairly across all competetive activities, and enjoying it because your dog is a good, functional, healthy example of the breed, then that one sentence is quite a sad and biased opinion.


I don't think I have misread your views you put on here. You seem very dismissive of the show world as a whole. Most things about the show world you seem to object to most of the time, including a bit of tape on an ear, which if you listen to those who do it, the ear shape cannot change and most of the time if it wants to prick or flop forward it will anyway.
Yes you support ethical breeding, who said you didn't?


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Flippy ears are common in tollers (goes back to their collie ancestors!). They often go flippy when teething, you can usually tell if they are going to stay flippy or not. Some people do fiddle with them to make them right, but I didn't bother with Ember, if they were going to flip they were going to flip!
I had the choice of two puppies, one with good ears but a little reserved, and the other with 'dodgy' ears but was very confident. I choose the confident (mad!) puppy.

Embers, one correct, one flippy ear. and her dad with lovely ears.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not surprised to be honest, because no-one knows if the ear set is correct because it's been taped into position, or if it's been allowed to develop naturally.


I think you're giving taping entirely too much credit 

Taping does not change the size, shape, or "set" of the ear - as in where the ear sits on the skull. The ONLY thing taping affects is how the ear folds, which frankly, I'm not convinced is purely genetic. For all we know the fold of an ear could be entirely environmental. Could have to do with diet or how the dog sleeps on that ear.

Put it this way. You breed dogs to retrieve right? By your logic, you should breed dogs who come out of the womb knowing exactly what to do on a shoot. You should not have to train them to return to hand, you should not have to train for steadiness. Silly right? You breed for traits, you train to bring those traits out. But unlike training where you can technically teach any breed, regardless of instincts to pick up and hold an object, ear taping is not going to turn a prick ear breed in to a flop ear one or vice versa.

So yes, breed for correct ears in that they are a certain size, shape, and sit on the skull in a certain place all you want. But I'm not going to vilify taping any more than I would vilify a breeder for tweaking a retrieve instinct with training.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I would NEVER do this. Ears go up and down and then settle where they are meant to be. 
Can`t you just love the dog as he is?


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

So...why tape a dogs ear in the first place - that is my argument - if in the long run taping is not going to affect the shape, texture or set of a dogs ear. The whole idea of taping is pretty dumb and it is only done by show people that panic when a puppy is teething, (Shock!, horror!, "My perfect show puppy is flying it's ears", with much wringing of hands, "What can I do about it?". "Never mind hon, just tape/glue them into shape, just remember to take the stuff off before you enter the show ring, the judge won't be impressed else!") All because they dont want have the patience to wait to show their pup when it finishes teething and reaches adulthood, or that they are filled with dread that it's ears will never be 'right' and it never will win in the show ring because of its 'defective???' ears. 

Also the best will in the world will not convince me that it's not uncomfortable for the dog it is being done to.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I would NEVER do this. Ears go up and down and then settle where they are meant to be.
> *Can`t you just love the dog as he is?*


I was wondering when someone was going to suggest that those who tape love their dogs less than those who don't care what the ear looks like. 

I suppose I also love my mutt dog less because we put impulse control on his prey drive instead of letting him chase and kill anything he could catch. I should instead just "love him as he is" and let him chase and kill small furries.

I must also love my dane bitch less because I'm working on improving her dog skills so that she doesn't respond to everything with an OTT play bow that freaks most dogs out. I should just leave it, and love her as she is.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> So...why tape a dogs ear in the first place - that is my argument - if in the long run taping is not going to affect the shape, texture or set of a dogs ear. The whole idea of taping is pretty dumb and it is only done by show people that panic when a puppy is teething, (shock, horror, "My perfect show puppy is flying it's ears", with much wringing of hands, "What can I do about it?". "Never mind hon, just tape/glue them into shape, just remember to take the stuff off before you enter the show ring, the judge won't be impressed else!") All because they dont want to wait to show their pup when finishes teething and reaches adulthood. Also the best will in the world will not convince me that it's not uncomfortable for the dog it is being done to.


Okay, so you must have missed my numerous posts where I explain that it's not only show dogs who are taped?
I don't show. My dogs are not show dogs, they're rescues. I would tape.
Why? Because I prefer the look of a flat folded ear than a flying nun ear. My own personal aesthetic.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I was wondering when someone was going to suggest that those who tape love their dogs less than those who don't care what the ear looks like.
> 
> I suppose I also love my mutt dog less because we put impulse control on his prey drive instead of letting him chase and kill anything he could catch. I should instead just "love him as he is" and let him chase and kill small furries.
> 
> I must also love my dane bitch less because I'm working on improving her dog skills so that she doesn't respond to everything with an OTT play bow that freaks most dogs out. I should just leave it, and love her as she is.


Quite agree.

All of my roughs have had prick ears and I don't think we could of loved them more and I do not love Alfie for his tipped ears. I have always loved the look of the tipped ears as I love the look of the rough collie expression and we have tried to tip the others. It wasn't like when Billy's went up we wrung our hands and cried and wondered if we should rehome him. We laughed about it, infact we always laughed about Bens because his were soooooo pricked and he was such a rebel in every way that we said it was like he was rebelling in his ears too.

I love the dogs no matter what, I also love wonky ears on other dogs and Laddie, our dog had one up and down for years and we loved that. We give it a go and like I said if it wants to prick it does, it just makes a lovely expression when it does tip and weighting them a bit when teething will only make a difference if it was going to tip anyway, but if you let it prick it will never come down again.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I was wondering when someone was going to suggest that those who tape love their dogs less than those who don't care what the ear looks like.
> 
> I suppose I also love my mutt dog less because we put impulse control on his prey drive instead of letting him chase and kill anything he could catch. I should instead just "love him as he is" and let him chase and kill small furries.


But your dog chasing and killing small furries negatively impacts on others: the animals he kills, potential owners if the animal happened to be a cat or rabbit, stress to you from the aftermath, potential risk if he chased an animal into a road or unsafe area etc.

There is no-one hurt by a dog having slightly less than 'perfect' ears other than the owners sense of aesthetics. Not really comparable.....


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> So...why tape a dogs ear in the first place - that is my argument - if in the long run taping is not going to affect the shape, texture or set of a dogs ear. The whole idea of taping is pretty dumb and it is only done by show people that panic when a puppy is teething, (Shock!, horror!, "My perfect show puppy is flying it's ears", with much wringing of hands, "What can I do about it?". "Never mind hon, just tape/glue them into shape, just remember to take the stuff off before you enter the show ring, the judge won't be impressed else!") All because they dont want have the patience to wait to show their pup when it finishes teething and reaches adulthood, or that they are filled with dread that it's ears will never be 'right' and it never will win in the show ring because of its 'defective???' ears.
> 
> Also the best will in the world will not convince me that it's not uncomfortable for the dog it is being done to.


Alfie doesn't show, never has and never will.

It also was not uncomfortable for him, he never even itched it and let me tell you, he doesn't tolerate ANYTHING he doesn't like, just ask the vet, when he wants to take his temp he runs around the room, for his ears he sat and had it placed on and went on his way, never even a shake of the head.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> So...why tape a dogs ear in the first place - that is my argument - if in the long run taping is not going to affect the shape, texture or set of a dogs ear. The whole idea of taping is pretty dumb and it is only done by show people that panic when a puppy is teething, (Shock!, horror!, "My perfect show puppy is flying it's ears", with much wringing of hands, "What can I do about it?". "Never mind hon, just tape/glue them into shape, just remember to take the stuff off before you enter the show ring, the judge won't be impressed else!") All because they dont want have the patience to wait to show their pup when it finishes teething and reaches adulthood, or that they are filled with dread that it's ears will never be 'right' and it never will win in the show ring because of its 'defective???' ears.
> 
> *Also the best will in the world will not convince me that it's not uncomfortable for the dog it is being done to*.


it's partly from me fiddling with her ears helping them stay up that means any tom dick or harry that wants can fiddle with her ears and poke about her face- i've had a fair amount of my college class practice a health check on her because she is so good with her ears, some who haven't checked a dogs ears before in their lives!

with a yorkie they are to look alert with an intelligent air, its part of the standard. now it doesn't matter that you know your yorkie is a genius when in the ring, if it has wobbly ears it looks a wee bit dopey!  adorable none the less, but dopey as can be! 
and with yorkies and the amount of coat they need for the ring their owners will generally want them made up in and possibly out of the ring as young as possible to chop the coat and stop having to wrap it (i've seen many champ veterans being shown for fun by their owners with much less coat than they used to have for less grooming time).

and after seeing her panicking and crying when a stupid vet cut the quick on one of her nails i will confidently say again... the taping didn't bother her in the slightest!


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Shadowrat said:


> But your dog chasing and killing small furries negatively impacts on others: the animals he kills, potential owners if the animal happened to be a cat or rabbit, stress to you from the aftermath, potential risk if he chased an animal into a road or unsafe area etc.
> 
> There is no-one hurt by a dog having slightly less than 'perfect' ears other than the owners sense of aesthetics. Not really comparable.....


Actually it really is no danger to him to chase as he lives in the boonies, it's not stress to me because I know he's "street smart", and most of what he kills is considered vermin.

But for you, let's change the analogy to square sits and straight fronts. Do I love my dog any less because I train for a straight front instead of leaving him be and letting him come to me however he wants?

The point is, we humans do all sorts of things to dogs that are unnatural to them - hello selective breeding? Specialized training? Simply putting a leash and collar on a dog is not leaving him be.

As for if it's uncomfortable. Sorry, but as someone who trains 100% force free listening to people who have no issues with slip leads and other training techniques and tools complain about discomfort of taping is more than slightly ironic. 
I've had to tape and glue (with surgical glue) all of my dogs at one point or another because they like to shred their ears and bleed all over the place. The glue they do hate - it stings, but the tape? As far as I can tell, they have no clue it's there.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Okay, so you must have missed my numerous posts where I explain that it's not only show dogs who are taped?
> I don't show. My dogs are not show dogs, they're rescues. I would tape.
> Why? Because I prefer the look of a flat folded ear than a flying nun ear. My own personal aesthetic.


But...I guess you are the exception to prove the rule, most 'pet' people wouldnt tape, wouldn't know how to tape, and would be perfectly happy to accept the dog the way it was, just as nature intended, wonky ears or not.

To try to alter a dogs ears by taping/glueing - you don't know whether it's uncomfortable, or even how uncomfortable for the dog or not - just to please your 'eye' is rather selfish don't you think?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I think most of us know discomfort in our dogs. Alfie doesnt take things lying down. He hates being brushed, something he needs doing, something noone would say is cruel. The ears with a dab of blu tac he didn't once bother with.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> it's partly from me fiddling with her ears helping them stay up that means any tom dick or harry that wants can fiddle with her ears and poke about her face- i've had a fair amount of my college class practice a health check on her because she is so good with her ears, some who haven't checked a dogs ears before in their lives!
> 
> with a yorkie they are to look alert with an intelligent air, its part of the standard. now it doesn't matter that you know your yorkie is a genius when in the ring, if it has wobbly ears it looks a wee bit dopey!  adorable none the less, but dopey as can be!
> and with yorkies and the amount of coat they need for the ring their owners will generally want them made up in and possibly out of the ring as young as possible to chop the coat and stop having to wrap it (i've seen many champ veterans being shown for fun by their owners with much less coat than they used to have for less grooming time).
> ...


That is your experience mine is a lot different...I have seen whippets that have had their ear tips weighted for months being bothered about it. Especially when the weighting is being done and upon removal of said weights. Taping/glueing/weighting whatever you like to call it can be painful and is totally unnecessary - this is my opinion and and no amount of your personal experience will convince me otherwise.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> But...I guess you are the exception to prove the rule, most 'pet' people wouldnt tape, wouldn't know how to tape, and would be perfectly happy to accept the dog the way it was, just as nature intended, wonky ears or not.


Actually a lot of pet rough owners do tip the ears too. The reason being it is the classic rough expression and it isn't cruel in anyway.

There are a few pet owners on here who have asked me about their pets ears and I see it a lot. I actually think the exception would be to let the dogs ears prick without trying something, some try greasing the tips too.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not surprised to be honest, because no-one knows if the ear set is correct because it's been taped into position, or if it's been allowed to develop naturally. You have, and I use this comparison loosely, several generations of *carriers* ie you have no idea whether their ear set is right because it was born that way, or because it's been *tweaked* to correct it. You're loosing the knowledge of what is a correctly bred ear set, and what you just breed and will correct because everyone else does it that way.
> 
> If you look at the overall conformation of a dog, not one is perfect and you breed towards improvement (hopefully) in those areas where your dog has slight weaknesses. How would you know where to begin with a breed that has had years of ear taping? Your dog may have a correct ear set having been taped as a pup, the dam and sire might have had a correct ear set because they'd been taped as a pup, so what will the pups be?
> 
> ...


I have already said, we taped Mabel's ears during teething (nothing to do with natural earset) to stop them flying everywhere, which they were doing - very badly and not only would it completely unacceptable for the show ring had they have fixed into that position, but also - SHOCK HORROR - we prefer the look of a correct ear regardless of the show ring, so would've probably taped them regardless of whether we were showing her or not. We don't have any plans to ever breed from her at the moment, despite pressure from people around us. She does have a few small faults and we are not ashamed of it, as you have said yourself - no dog is 'perfect'. Mabels ears are at fault in that the ear leather itself is too big, which means although the actual placing on the skull is correct, they do not sit where they should do. No amount of taping or gluing will fix that and it is a small fault in the same way that anything else would be, if we were to breed from her (I have already explained this but obviously I need to say it again) we would find a male that among being a match in as many other ways as possible, had smaller ears. It may not produce puppies with smaller ears as again, you can't guarantee it, but at least we would be trying to work towards breeding for smaller ears.

Obviously you didn't read my previous post well enough - the photo of her at 8 weeks clearly shows her with correctly set ears (even if the ear itself is slightly big), the photo of her at 4 months during teething clearly shows her with incorrect ears. We had no intention of taping them previous to her teething and were actually very proud of her naturally good ears, but teething came along and it all went to pot (nothing to do with breeding!) - they often need the SUPPORT of a bit of tape (which btw is only a couple of small strips of Elastoplast fabric strapping - not exactly duct tape and superglue!) to prevent them from staying in the flyaway position, which they can easily do, as the ear muscle strengthens during teething and can strengthen into the wrong position - again, nothing to do with breeding. She never once appeared to be in discomfort or unhappy with it in any other way. I don't really know what else to say on that one, of course there will be those of you who say it DEFINITELY caused my dog discomfort (funny, I never saw you people sat watching her whilst she had the tape on ) and of course, you won't change your opinions on that.

S_L, Your posts DO often come across as though you have a lot of issues with the dog showing world and it's practises, yet you continue to enter shows and put your money into it... things go on within showing that I don't agree with but I don't come on here complaining about it and getting on my high horse about it because we are still putting our money into it and attending shows. I think there are things wrong with our breed standard and I think there are things wrong within the ring in our breed - for example, the breed standard calls for the tail to be "carried not higher than level of back." yet many of the top winning dogs are carrying their tails miles up over their backs - this is WRONG for the breed but it is what is being placed at the moment - doesn't mean that we're going to strap up Mabel's tail, we are proud to have a dog that actually carries its tail correctly, even if her ears aren't perfect (the standard says that the ears should be "Small and 'V' shaped, carried well above top line of head and hanging close to head above eyes" - Mabels ears are V shaped but carried more level either side of her eyes rather than on top of the head, this is because the leather is too big - tape will not prevent that).

And with regards to ear taping being uncomfortable, surely it is no more uncomfortable for a puppy than collar/lead training? How many puppies dislike wearing a collar or walking on a lead at first? Do people say that is cruel because they don't want to wear it? Perhaps if a puppy resists a collar and lead, we should just not bother to use them? Mabel DETESTED walking on a lead at first, she was frightened of traffic too, should we have never walked her because she was uncomfortable around traffic? She showed quite a bit of resistance towards a lead at first, yet never once 'complained' about a slither of elastoplast in her ear.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> But...I guess you are the exception to prove the rule, most 'pet' people wouldnt tape, wouldn't know how to tape, and would be perfectly happy to accept the dog the way it was, just as nature intended, wonky ears or not.
> 
> To try to alter a dogs ears by taping/glueing - you don't know whether it's uncomfortable, or even how uncomfortable for the dog or not - just to please your 'eye' is rather selfish don't you think?


Okay, so first if we tape, we don't love our dogs as much, now we're selfish. Seriously?

If it was about leaving the dogs "as nature intended", why do we have breeds at all? Isn't it "selfish" to create breeds to suit man's needs? It's a hypocritical argument.

I get it that some people don't care about ears, I'm totally okay with that. There is plenty out there that people do to their dogs that I would never do, will never understand. I've mentioned the Portuguese water dog and Lowchen cuts for one. But just because *I* don't "get" it, I'm not going to start accusing people of not loving their dogs as much as I do or being selfish.

I have a pretty good idea of how uncomfortable or not it is since I tape injured ears. This morning one of my dogs ran through a cobweb and came running to me rubbing his head on my legs to get it off him. I'm pretty sure if the tape bothered them they'd let me know. And like I said, I find it really ironic that folks who have no issue using aversive training tools and methods are suddenly up in arms about the discomfort of what amounts to putting a bandaid on healthy skin. Oh, and BTW, you use olive or mineral oil to take it off so it doesn't pull the fur.

I'm not the exception either. Plenty of pet owners tape. Though after threads like this, I'd imagine they wouldn't be very vocal about it.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> That is your experience mine is a lot different...I have seen whippets that have had their ear tips weighted for months being bothered about it. Especially when the weighting is being done and upon removal of said weights. Taping/glueing/weighting whatever you like to call it *can be painful and is totally unnecessary* - this is my opinion and and no amount of your personal experience will convince me otherwise.


ok, fair enough. but i'll repeat what i and others have said before... if not done right (and the correct amount of time left between tapings/glueings) then it Shouldn't hurt or be uncomfortable, if it does or is, it's not being done right.
putting a collar on too tight can be painful, that doesn't make collars cruel or unnecessary. clipping nails can be bloody and painful, doesn't make it unnecessary either! i'm not saying taping is absolutely necessary, but it shouldn't cruel or painful either.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Okay, so first if we tape, we don't love our dogs as much, now we're selfish. Seriously?
> 
> If it was about leaving the dogs "as nature intended", why do we have breeds at all? Isn't it "selfish" to create breeds to suit man's needs? It's a hypocritical argument.
> 
> ...


Would you kindly specify which 'aversive training tool' you have in mind....?

My apologies if I'm reading too much into this. But if you are referring to my headcollar thread, then I don't think it's accurate to call *all* headcollars 'aversive'.

Again, my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your comment.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> (which btw is only a couple of small strips of Elastoplast fabric strapping - not exactly duct tape and superglue!)


Sticking a bit of plaster on a dog's ear wouldn't bother me. So if that's what 'taping' is, I wouldn't notice or care at all tbh.

What I see in the videos of gluing border collie ears is akin to superglue and duct tape though imo. and I do believe it probably is uncomfortable for the dog. The pup can't move his ears at all, they're have blobs of glue and pads stuck on them, then they're stitched through the glue and pads to hold them up together. In the second vid they actually use duct tape and say you can tell if you've pierced the ear as you'll see blood. 

[youtube_browser]sjRVHrd-uDA[/youtube_browser]

[youtube_browser]TObJ8ZSNLiQ[/youtube_browser]


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Okay, so first if we tape, we don't love our dogs as much, now we're selfish. Seriously?
> 
> If it was about leaving the dogs "as nature intended", why do we have breeds at all? Isn't it "selfish" to create breeds to suit man's needs? It's a hypocritical argument.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think your selfish to tape a dogs ears just because you dont like the 'look' of them, if you do something to a dog just to please your eye, that proves you're selfish in my book.

I never said in any of my posts that you didnt love them though, praps you do in your own way, but I don't think your idea of love in any way coincides with mine.

Yes I do think it's selfish to create breeds of dogs just to aesthetically please humans, nothing wrong with dogs left as nature intended, when all's said and done, cross a pure breed out for two generations you end up with a mongrel.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Who would have thought this would cause so much drama! 

When I've taped mines ears, I've used a single piece of electrical tape stuck to the front of one ear, user the chin (pinched in the middle so it doesn't get stuck to the fur underneath) then onto the other ear. This takes between 1-2 weeks if you catch it early enough, longer if you don't. I left ruperts too late so his fly sometimes and lie flat others. Just before we go in the ring I tape them and massage them flat, rest of the time I just leave them be. If anyone would like to see a picture example of how I tape, I would be happy to take one! 

Lots of breeders supplement calcium to help with the ear cartilidge. 

I can understand people not wanting to do it, or not liking it. That's fine by me. I don't really like seeing dogs dressed up or with hair bands in their hair, or some of the grooming like ousei pointed out, but these type of things don't personally bother me unless the dog is discomfort. I think most people pick a dog they like the look of, whether rescue mix or purebred. 

As tigerneko quite rightly pointed out, I'm sure there are people who do it in a cruel way, but surely that's why those of us who do ethically tape should be on hand here to point those who want to tape in the right direction, if it's important to them?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Ouesi does the dog think gluing/taping is worth it? Your dogs think sitting square in front of you is worth it, they think recalling to you is worth it and certainly the happy way you train them convinces them it's worth it, gluing their damaged ears so they heal is most certainly worth it to the dog. 

Gluing their ear so it stands up and looks pretty is not worth it to the dog and may cause discomfort. Certainly done the way in the vids (and I first saw it in a Susan Garrett vid iirc) is uncomfortable imo. It's something done purely for looks and doesn't benefit the dog at all, so it's not really akin to training the dog is it? 

Whether people using aversives are hypocrites or not, it doesn't make gluing any better or worse than it is and so it's down to the individual's conscience and opinion over it I suppose.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Yes, I think your selfish to tape a dogs ears just because you dont like the 'look' of them, if you do something to a dog just to please your eye, that proves you're selfish in my book.
> 
> I never said in any of my posts that you didnt love them though, praps you do in your own way, but I don't think your idea of love in any way coincides with mine.
> 
> Yes I do think it's selfish to create breeds of dogs just to aesthetically please humans, nothing wrong with dogs left as nature intended, when all's said and done, cross a pure breed out for two generations you end up with a mongrel.


I do like the look of prick ears too, my others have all been prick, love them the same.

*'I never said in any of my posts that you didnt love them though, praps you do in your own way, but I don't think your idea of love in any way coincides with mine.' *

Hahaha, in my own way I love him, oh yes, because you know he would be going back to the breeder if his top bit of ear didn't tip!! Please!

I love my dog more then anything, he goes without nothing, is well fed and cared for, well walked and loved by all. The vet said he hasn't seen a better cared for dog and one in such a good condition of body and coat.
I adore every hair on his head and if he had prick ears, I would love him the same. He had a small dab of blu tac on his ear tips, nothing more or less, he didn't know it was there as I made sure it was small and not big and heavy.

My dog is adored, no question about it. He spends his whole day with us, interacting and playing and walking, never left alone all day, fussed and loved. He sleeps on the sofa or bed, isn't even crated, no pain methods were used for anything he ever did. He is spoken to more then peoples children I see, he is as smart as they come and would let it be known if he didn't like something as he does with other things. I don't go away so I don't have to leave him.

Your comment actually offended me.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Yes, I think your selfish to tape a dogs ears just because you dont like the 'look' of them, if you do something to a dog just to please your eye, that proves you're selfish in my book.
> 
> I never said in any of my posts that you didnt love them though, praps you do in your own way, but I don't think your idea of love in any way coincides with mine.
> 
> Yes I do think it's selfish to create breeds of dogs just to aesthetically please humans, nothing wrong with dogs left as nature intended, when all's said and done, cross a pure breed out for two generations you end up with a mongrel.


Wow... Aren't you a ray of unjudgemental sunshine?

I'm sorry, I shouldn't respond, but your post hit a nerve.
Those pictures I posted of correct and incorrect dane ears? The male is my rescue boy. The one we moved mountains to get off death row at the pound as an aggressive, un-adoptable, old, sick dog that nobody wanted. 
The one we have spent a small fortune in medical bills treating heartworms, dealing with his food aggression, healing his spirit after having been shot by humans, beaten by humans, neglected by humans... And you're going to sit there and tell me I'm selfish and that your idea of love doesn't coincide with mine?!

Well, I'll give you the latter, you must not know what it is to love wholly and unconditionally if you find it so easy to judge someone you know nothing about.

As to the others, it's becoming clear we're not talking about the same thing with taping. I'm talking about a strip of elastikon or a breathe-right strip put on the tip of the ear. No weights, no glue, no zip ties. Takes about 20 seconds to put on the ear. I don't know about what they do to whippet ears and collie ears. That is new information to me. More evidence that we should focus on seeking to understand, instead of being so quick to criticize and judge.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

OUESI - just wondering which 'aversive' tool you meant in your earlier post...?

Apologies if I'm reading too much into your words, just wondered if you were referring to the headcollar thread. If yes, then I don't think it's fair to brand all headcollars per se as 'aversive'.

Again, apologies if I'm misinterpreting your earlier post.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Would you kindly specify which 'aversive training tool' you have in mind....?
> 
> My apologies if I'm reading too much into this. But if you are referring to my headcollar thread, then I don't think it's accurate to call *all* headcollars 'aversive'.
> 
> Again, my apologies if I'm misinterpreting your comment.


No worries OBYL, not everything I post is about you 
I think I'm pretty clear in my posts that I don't judge folks for the tools they use, even if I would not use them myself. All I ask is that the same courtesy be extended to me.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> No worries OBYL, not everything I post is about you
> I think I'm pretty clear in my posts that I don't judge folks for the tools they use, even if I would not use them myself. All I ask is that the same courtesy be extended to me.


Which still leaves me wondering which 'aversive' tools you mean and who you had in mind when you mentioned that someone objected to gluing ears but might use something 'aversive'....

I guess the reality is that we ALL do things with our dogs that others might object to. Some people glue ears, others groom their dogs and give them drastic 'haircuts' and some of us use headcollars. Some folk pluck out whiskers.

We each draw the line where we feel it appropriate. I guess for me - and this is *not *a judgement on anyone, just my personal view - I don't do anything that I deem as being for purely 'cosmetic' reasons.

Each to their own, I guess


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Which still leaves me wondering which 'aversive' tools you mean and who you had in mind when you mentioned that someone objected to gluing ears but might use something 'aversive'....
> 
> I guess the reality is that we ALL do things with our dogs that others might object to. Some people glue ears, others groom their dogs and give them drastic 'haircuts' and some of us use headcollars. Some folk pluck out whiskers.
> 
> ...


I think it far nicer to put a bit of tape/blu tac to and ear that doesn't hurt or harm a dog then use something that hurts a dog though, I wouldn't even put them in a similar circumstance.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Which still leaves me wondering which 'aversive' tools you mean and who you had in mind when you mentioned that someone objected to gluing ears but might use something 'aversive'....
> 
> *I guess the reality is that we ALL do things with our dogs that others might object to. Some people glue ears, others groom their dogs and give them drastic 'haircuts' and some of us use headcollars. Some folk pluck out whiskers.*
> 
> ...


Exactly. We all do things that others might object to. And we all fail to do things that others might find essential.
But to sit here and say I love my dogs less and that I am selfish because I *would* have taped a puppy's ears - note I never did, my male was too old and my female never needed it. I'm sorry but that takes the conversation from a conversation to a completely unecessary confrontation.

As for aversive tools, and methods... there are so many. And folks are largely oblivious to the long term problems many can cause. Or perhaps they just don't want to think that way.

No, I don't like that headcollars are held up as the epitome of kind training when you see so many dogs walking on their heads trying to rub the halter off. 
I'm convinced that slip leads contribute to esophogeal and laryngeal problems that are often attributed to "old age". And just to be clear, I think plain flat collars on a confirmed puller can too. 
Body harnesses not suited to the dog's structure and fitted incorrectly leave armpits raw and contribute to shoulder injuries. The list goes on and on.

By comparison, two bandaids on ear tips don't seem like such a big deal to me. That's all I'm saying.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Dober said:


> Who would have thought this would cause so much drama!


Perhaps the OP since they seem to have sat down in the premier seating and started on the popcorn.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Tigerneko said:


> I have already said, we taped Mabel's ears during teething (nothing to do with natural earset) to stop them flying everywhere, which they were doing - very badly and not only would it completely unacceptable for the show ring had they have fixed into that position, but also - SHOCK HORROR - we prefer the look of a correct ear regardless of the show ring, so would've probably taped them regardless of whether we were showing her or not. We don't have any plans to ever breed from her at the moment, despite pressure from people around us. She does have a few small faults and we are not ashamed of it, as you have said yourself - no dog is 'perfect'. Mabels ears are at fault in that the ear leather itself is too big, which means although the actual placing on the skull is correct, they do not sit where they should do. No amount of taping or gluing will fix that and it is a small fault in the same way that anything else would be, if we were to breed from her (I have already explained this but obviously I need to say it again) we would find a male that among being a match in as many other ways as possible, had smaller ears. It may not produce puppies with smaller ears as again, you can't guarantee it, but at least we would be trying to work towards breeding for smaller ears.
> 
> Obviously you didn't read my previous post well enough - the photo of her at 8 weeks clearly shows her with correctly set ears (even if the ear itself is slightly big), the photo of her at 4 months during teething clearly shows her with incorrect ears. We had no intention of taping them previous to her teething and were actually very proud of her naturally good ears, but teething came along and it all went to pot (nothing to do with breeding!) - they often need the SUPPORT of a bit of tape (which btw is only a couple of small strips of Elastoplast fabric strapping - not exactly duct tape and superglue!) to prevent them from staying in the flyaway position, which they can easily do, as the ear muscle strengthens during teething and can strengthen into the wrong position - again, nothing to do with breeding. She never once appeared to be in discomfort or unhappy with it in any other way. I don't really know what else to say on that one, of course there will be those of you who say it DEFINITELY caused my dog discomfort (funny, I never saw you people sat watching her whilst she had the tape on ) and of course, you won't change your opinions on that.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, I did read your posts about taping Mabel's ears, I still wouldn't do it, for all of the reason's that I've said, if you've actually read my posts.

I've never said it's unduly uncomfortable for the dog, nor have I accused anyone of using duct tape or superglue, that is a little bit dramatic and isn't really a reflection of what I've posted.

You've missed the point completely, it's not about any discomfort (or not) taping might cause the dogs, we could all tape up bits of our dogs that we didn't feel were right but what's the point? You're just hiding something that if you allow it to naturally develop, you would see what you've got. Taping prevents that, so you will never know when breeding whether the ear is naturally correct or not. And in that case, you bound to be making the problem worse, ie breeding less and less ears that are naturally how they should be. It's interesting that no-one's answered my question about the breed standard, and whether this was written with taping in mind, or a description of the ears as they should be bred for.

There is no comparison between lead walking and taping ears. Lead walking is a necessary part of exercising your dog, unless you're suggesting keeping Mabel as a house dog, which isn't really a fair life for a dog. Ear taping is done for *you*, not Mabel. It has done nothing to enhance her enjoyment of life, it has been so you gain more enjoyment from showing her.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I enjoy watching sports on television, I hate seeing footballers dive, I hate seeing someone given out when they were blatantly in, and I hate seeing high tackles at rugby. I would never watch sports and just gently clap and say 'bravo, well played game everyone'. I will applaud when I see a sport played well, and I will shout foul when I think it hasn't been played well, or fair, like everything else in life.

Is the show world perfect? No, there are definitely things about the show world I don't like. But I do think it's important that *we* understand correct conformation; however if I don't agree with something, I won't sit here and keep quiet about it, I'm not that sort of person.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Do the people who object to the taping object to braces on teeth too, except in extreme cases no one actually needs their teeth to be completely straight. I was lucky and didn't need one, but everyone else in my school pretty much had one.

Shouldn't we let our teeth grow naturally?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You've missed the point completely, it's not about any discomfort (or not) taping might cause the dogs, we could all tape up bits of our dogs that we didn't feel were right but what's the point? You're just hiding something that if you allow it to naturally develop, you would see what you've got. Taping prevents that, so you will never know when breeding whether the ear is naturally correct or not.
> 
> * No it doesn't as people have already said, if the ear wants to go it will anyway with taping, but if it is correct it should help keep it that way.
> *
> Ear taping is done for *you*, not Mabel. It has done nothing to enhance her enjoyment of life, it has been so you gain more enjoyment from showing her.


Maybe it is done for you, the person, but there really isn't much harm in it. You must do things just for you surely. Tau had a litter, she didn't NEED a litter to enhance her life and would have known no different and it didn't make her enjoy her life any more then if not. You get enjoyment from breeding.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Maybe it is done for you, the person, but there really isn't much harm in it. You must do things just for you surely. Tau had a litter, she didn't NEED a litter to enhance her life and would have known no different and it didn't make her enjoy her life any more then if not. You get enjoyment from breeding.


I actually agree with this, alot of things we do for our dogs are done for us rather then the dog. You could even argue that training is done for us rather then for dogs, after all many dogs can survive without any form of training. 
Personally I don't think ear taping is the end of the world nor anything to particularly worry about. Do any of you object to grooming at all? Because surely if you are also 'having something to hide'?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

LurcherOwner said:


> I actually agree with this, alot of things we do for our dogs are done for us rather then the dog. You could even argue that training is done for us rather then for dogs, after all many dogs can survive without any form of training.
> Personally I don't think ear taping is the end of the world nor anything to particularly worry about. Do any of you object to grooming at all? Because surely if you are also 'having something to hide'?


Well Alfie hugely objects to grooming of any kind!!!


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

I do remember last year at crufts nearly telling someone on DD that their dog had a cobweb stuck between its ears ha.

I have to say i would be tempted with taping the ears, it is very likely that i wouldnt show but id still be tempted.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Elles said:


> Sticking a bit of plaster on a dog's ear wouldn't bother me. So if that's what 'taping' is, I wouldn't notice or care at all tbh.
> 
> What I see in the videos of gluing border collie ears is akin to superglue and duct tape though imo. and I do believe it probably is uncomfortable for the dog. The pup can't move his ears at all, they're have blobs of glue and pads stuck on them, then they're stitched through the glue and pads to hold them up together. In the second vid they actually use duct tape and say you can tell if you've pierced the ear as you'll see blood.
> 
> ...


Sweet Jesus!


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Do the people who object to the taping object to braces on teeth too, except in extreme cases no one actually needs their teeth to be completely straight. I was lucky and didn't need one, but everyone else in my school pretty much had one.
> 
> Shouldn't we let our teeth grow naturally?


You have a choice whether to wear a brace or not - puppies don't have choices, puppies get things done to them, nobody asks their opinion about their ears.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> You have a choice whether to wear a brace or not - puppies don't have choices, puppies get things done to them, nobody asks their opinion about their ears.


Well I didn't ask his opinion on brushing either, but he lets me know it, but a bit of something on his ear he didn't bother with, so I know his opinion.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

My comments in blue just because faster to address your points separately and I can't seem to 'multi quote'!



ouesi said:


> Exactly. We all do things that others might object to. And we all fail to do things that others might find essential.
> But* to sit here and say I love my dogs less and that I am selfish because I *would* have taped a puppy's ears *- note I never did, my male was too old and my female never needed it. I'm sorry but that takes the conversation from a conversation to a completely unecessary confrontation.
> 
> *
> ...


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I was just about to say that it doesn't bother me in the slightest what other people do to their puppy's ears, but that I do think it should be a breeding thing rather than trying to 'correct' a dog's ears, just like other minor issues are treated...

But then I watched those videos :yikes: and actually I would care if someone was doing that to their puppy. I'm assuming that's not what people on this thread mean when they say they did something to alter their dog's ears?


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Well I didn't ask his opinion on brushing either, but he lets me know it, but a bit of something on his ear he didn't bother with, so I know his opinion.


You're just being obtuse now and arguing for the sake of arguement.

Those video's have sickened me - I'm out of this.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> You're just being obtuse now and arguing for the sake of arguement.
> 
> Those video's have sickened me - I'm out of this.


No I am stating the obvious. I did nothing like the videos, I put a dot of blu tac on the tip of an ear and it took two seconds, hardly cruel.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

tabulahrasa said:


> I'm assuming that's not what people on this thread mean when they say they did something to alter their dog's ears?


No. Nothing like that.



Supasilvfoxy said:


> You're just being obtuse now and arguing for the sake of arguement.
> 
> *Those video's have sickened me *- I'm out of this.


 One could argue that the one being obtuse is you. You're refusing to acknowledge what has repeatedly been stated, that what most of us mean by taping is nothing like what is presented in those videos.
You've also refused to acknowledge any post that shows your preconceived arrogant notions about those who would dare tape their puppies to be wrong.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Just to note it wasn't me that said that


I know it wasn't 
But you responded to my response to the person who did say that, that's why I kept it in there. Also hoping that person would read it and reconsider, obviously not


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

For those that are so dead set against tape/glue, have you actually seen it done first hand?

I think its one of those things where unless you have witnessed it, and seen it in the flesh, then its hard to form a truly educated opinion over it. I havent, so im on the fence.

Im sure there will always be people like those on the videos that take it to an extreme level, but then there will always be those that care more about aesthetics and winning a show, than anything else. Hopefully a minority.

Of all the things we do to dogs, put on them, put them through etc, i cant see how a bit of glue/tape is such a big deal.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Oh wow, I struggle when people start saying the dogs opinion isn't asked  We do lots of things that are uncomfortable and unnatural to dogs, that other deem cruel, choke chains, head collars, yanking on a dogs lead when it won't heel etc, I personally want to rip someones head off when they force a dog in to a sit position, we don't ask our dogs opinions on anything, and they get lots of unnatural things done to them to suit humans, which might not always be for appearance but it will be to suit the humans needs..... Ear taping is in fact less offensive to me than watching someone trying to get their dog walking to heel and not having a clue how to do it.... 

I don't show I have no interest in showing dogs ( I sometimes show my cats), my OH is on the other hand a judge and loves showing, if our pups ear take to flying when teething, even though both parents have a great ears set, will I think less of my OH for taping the pups ears???? No, does it mean he loves the pup any less than me and is being cruel?? In my world no, in those who think people in shows don't care about dogs, well of course you will think my OH will have the pup out on it's wonky ears


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Do the people who object to the taping object to braces on teeth too, except in extreme cases no one actually needs their teeth to be completely straight. I was lucky and didn't need one, but everyone else in my school pretty much had one.
> 
> Shouldn't we let our teeth grow naturally?


I wore braces in my teeth, but you know what, my dogs don't need them, because they're bred for correct dentition, and if they did have imperfect teeth, I wouldn't put a brace on them to hide that fact.



emmaviolet said:


> Maybe it is done for you, the person, but there really isn't much harm in it. You must do things just for you surely. Tau had a litter, she didn't NEED a litter to enhance her life and would have known no different and it didn't make her enjoy her life any more then if not. You get enjoyment from breeding.


Grooming is a welfare issue to a point, Rhuna isn't too keen on being groomed, she will let me do it. At the moment, there is a fashion to over trim flatcoats and groom them within an inch of their life, something that seems to be being rewarded in the show ring by some judges. If I wanted to win in the ring, I'd pin Rhuna down and groom her to the same style that is currently fashionable, but I don't want to win anything, if it means putting my dog through something I don't agree with myself.



Nonnie said:


> For those that are so dead set against tape/glue, have you actually seen it done first hand?
> 
> I think its one of those things where unless you have witnessed it, and seen it in the flesh, then its hard to form a truly educated opinion over it. I havent, so im on the fence.
> 
> ...


Again, besides the point, the breed standard when it was written described the ear as it was, the correct shape and set. Taping *helps* to disguise an ear that doesn't develop to quite the correct set. The issue isn't whether it annoys the dog having it done, whether it's cruel necessarily, although I'm still not convinced my dogs would enjoy having a bit of something stuck to their ears, the issue is that show breeders have fallen foul of poor breeding practices in the past, leading to problems within some pedigree breeds. Why are we allowing this sort of thing to continue when not only will it attract the wrong sort of criticism from people outside of showing, but it simply isn't of benefit to the breed overall, how can it be? All it does is disguise ears that aren't correct!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wore braces in my teeth, but you know what, my dogs don't need them, because they're bred for correct dentition, and if they did have imperfect teeth, I wouldn't put a brace on them to hide that fact.
> 
> Grooming is a welfare issue to a point, Rhuna isn't too keen on being groomed, she will let me do it. At the moment, there is a fashion to over trim flatcoats and groom them within an inch of their life, something that seems to be being rewarded in the show ring by some judges. If I wanted to win in the ring, I'd pin Rhuna down and groom her to the same style that is currently fashionable, but I don't want to win anything, if it means putting my dog through something I don't agree with myself.


Again you have missed the point completely, I was talking about braces for cosmetic reasons for people and not dogs teeth. My point being people have braces mostly for cosmetic purposes now.

You quoted my point about your breeding but answered about grooming, you bred your bitch for your own enjoyment and pleasure and not her own, she would have known no different had you not bred from her, so you too are guilty of doing things with your dog for your own enjoyment and not hers.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Again, besides the point, the breed standard when it was written described the ear as it was, the correct shape and set. Taping *helps* to disguise an ear that doesn't develop to quite the correct set. The issue isn't whether it annoys the dog having it done, whether it's cruel necessarily, although I'm still not convinced my dogs would enjoy having a bit of something stuck to their ears, the issue is that show breeders have fallen foul of poor breeding practices in the past, leading to problems within some pedigree breeds. Why are we allowing this sort of thing to continue when not only will it attract the wrong sort of criticism from people outside of showing, but it simply isn't of benefit to the breed overall, how can it be? All it does is disguise ears that aren't correct!!


You really are not listening to what those who do it say, the ear does set correctly and develop that way, in teething ears fly and it just helps them to not develop the wrong muscles. If ears want to go wrong they do, ask many breeders.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Again you have missed the point completely, I was talking about braces for cosmetic reasons for people and not dogs teeth. My point being people have braces mostly for cosmetic purposes now.
> 
> You quoted my point about your breeding but answered about grooming, you bred your bitch for your own enjoyment and pleasure and not her own, she would have known no different had you not bred from her, so you too are guilty of doing things with your dog for your own enjoyment and not hers.


I know you were talking about braces for humans, but if you equate that to dogs, the answer is the same. You breed for correct dentition, you don't disguise what isn't correct.

If that's your view point on breeding, then really no dogs should be bred, so you disagree with the breeder of your own dog?



emmaviolet said:


> You really are not listening to what those who do it say, the ear does set correctly and develop that way, in teething ears fly and it just helps them to not develop the wrong muscles. If ears want to go wrong they do, ask many breeders.


So if they are correct, why do they need taping? Something that is already correct doesn't need intervention.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I know you were talking about braces for humans, but if you equate that to dogs, the answer is the same. You breed for correct dentition, you don't disguise what isn't correct.
> 
> If that's your view point on breeding, then really no dogs should be bred, so you disagree with the breeder of your own dog?
> 
> So if they are correct, why do they need taping? Something that is already correct doesn't need intervention.


I was talking about cosmetic dentistry and not those that need repairing.

It is not my view on breeding as a whole, but as you are so against anything that wouldn't benefit the dog, excess grooming, taping, chalking, any number of things you disagree with, you have to accept that being mated and put through a pregnancy and whelping is a lot more of a stress to a dog then a bit of blu tac on an ear. 
You was the one who was saying that this was purely for the person who was doing it as the dog would be happy without it and still enjoy life, the exact thing is true for you breeding. There is a lot more danger to having a bitch have a litter to taping the ear.

They need taping to prevent the wrong muscles from developing in teething and promote the right muscles. You are right, what is right doesn't need correcting, that is why after teething is over if they are naturally right, they will be fine without tape or clay etc. Alfie hasn't had anything on his ears since seven months old, we tried with other dogs and they still pricked as they were going to anyway.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So if they are correct, why do they need taping? Something that is already correct doesn't need intervention.


Then why do you have an entire thread on training your gun dogs? If you had bred them correctly to begin with, they wouldn't need training, they'd pop out of the womb knowing what to do on a shoot.

Ears are no different. Not everything is nature, nurture is involved too.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I was talking about cosmetic dentistry and not those that need repairing.
> 
> It is not my view on breeding as a whole, but as you are so against anything that wouldn't benefit the dog, excess grooming, taping, chalking, any number of things you disagree with, you have to accept that being mated and put through a pregnancy and whelping is a lot more of a stress to a dog then a bit of blu tac on an ear.
> You was the one who was saying that this was purely for the person who was doing it as the dog would be happy without it and still enjoy life, the exact thing is true for you breeding. There is a lot more danger to having a bitch have a litter to taping the ear.
> ...


My word you really are going all out to paint your own picture of me.

Putting a brace on a human is to alter the teeth, not necessarily repair the teeth. It is cosmetic, although in some instances it is also functional with humans, it is for the main part to correct our bite. We don't need a normal bite to function, it looks nicer though. The same with dogs, they don't need a correct bite to function, but why would you want to breed for a dog with poor dentition? You don't, you breed for correct dentition.

You really are completely side stepping the issue. Yes, it is a risk breeding, and no, it doesn't benefit the individual dog. I'm still not sure however, how you manage to marry that up with the logic that it's ok to breed for an incorrect ear but then tape it up afterwards, and that's ethical?

They need taping to prevent the wrong muscles developing? You're having a laugh?? Where in the breed standard does it say, 'just in case the wrong ear muscles develop, in the future, when sticky tape is invented, we'll use that'.

:nono:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Then why do you have an entire thread on training your gun dogs? If you had bred them correctly to begin with, they wouldn't need training, they'd pop out of the womb knowing what to do on a shoot.
> 
> Ears are no different. Not everything is nature, nurture is involved too.


I nearly spat my wine out. You are comparing a part of a dogs anatomy to training it to do a job?!


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I nearly spat my wine out. You are comparing a part of a dogs anatomy to training it to do a job?!


No I'm not. 
Taping an ear does not make the ear larger or smaller, does not make pointy tips round or round tips pointy, doesn't thiken the leather, doesn't make prick ears floppy, doesn't make floppy ears prick. Taping doesn't change the shape of the ear or where the ear sits on the dog's head.

*Taping does not change a single thing about the ear's anatomy.*

Had to emphasize there since you're really having trouble with this concept.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> No I'm not.
> Taping an ear does not make the ear larger or smaller, does not make pointy tips round or round tips pointy, doesn't thiken the leather, doesn't make prick ears floppy, doesn't make floppy ears prick. Taping doesn't change the shape of the ear or where the ear sits on the dog's head.
> 
> *Taping does not change a single thing about the ear's anatomy.*
> ...


I think you were  (PS I'll give you a wave next time I post in the gundog section)

If it doesn't alter the ear at all, why do people do it?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> My word you really are going all out to paint your own picture of me.
> 
> Putting a brace on a human is to alter the teeth, not necessarily repair the teeth. It is cosmetic, although in some instances it is also functional with humans, it is for the main part to correct our bite. We don't need a normal bite to function, it looks nicer though. The same with dogs, they don't need a correct bite to function, but why would you want to breed for a dog with poor dentition? You don't, you breed for correct dentition.
> 
> ...


Where am I painting a picture? You said the ears are only for us and the dog gets no enjoyment, well the same is true for breeding. Your girl would of lead as happy a life without having a litter as a dog whose ear was allowed to go prick, you however are the one who objects to ear training though and question the ethics of helping on the muscle, I really cannot understand it to be honest. There are no dangers in tape, I don't see why there is such an issue.

You don't seem to understand that the dogs have correct ears anyway.

There is a lot that isn't said in the breed standard, it doesn't say in labs to cut the feathering on the tail as a breed standard but you do. It is in some of the books from decades ago.

Sometimes they do need taping to prevent a muscle from building up when they are flying, I am not having a laugh, many know it to be true.

Anyway I am rather tired of this argument. It is rather tedious.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Only on PF could we have a 15 page-long discussion about a dog's ears  

FWIW, I can see both sides of this. Personally - _personally _- I hate it when Max/Milly's ears flop over (usually after zoomies) so the ear appears to be inside out, and I am guilty of flipping them back over once I notice them. Yes, it's aesthetics, but to me, it looks uncomfortable so I'm guilty of flipping them back over. Other than that, I don't give 2 hoots as to the shape, position, colour, or size (unless the dog's tripping over them, of course ). But then, I don't really care much about appearances and much more about personality.

Maybe it's because I have a X (lurcher) and a mongrel, but other than flipping the ears over after zoomies, I've never given any thought to the set of their ears. Nor can I see it bothering me too much if I had a dobe with ears that pointed side-ways rather than facing the front, or a Mal with floppy ears. Maybe I'd feel different if I were to have those breeds, but I don't. Tbh, I probably wouldn't realise it wasn't to breed standard. 

Pro-ear-tapers/gluers argue that the tape won't change the shape or position of the ears, and that if the ear was going to be naturally against breed standard (flopping forward when it should be straight, and being straight when they should flop), then no amount of taping or gluing is going to correct that? Am I right? If so, and if wayward ears is only a problem during teething - why is it _such _a problem that it needs to be artificially corrected in the first place? Can the dog still position them as they choose while they're taped in correct alignment, or is this hindered? Because if it's hindered, then surely you are tampering with the dog's body/facial expression and therefore, communication? Genuinely curious here, not having a go.

:thumbsup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Where am I painting a picture? You said the ears are only for us and the dog gets no enjoyment, well the same is true for breeding. Your girl would of lead as happy a life without having a litter as a dog whose ear was allowed to go prick, you however are the one who objects to ear training though and question the ethics of helping on the muscle, I really cannot understand it to be honest. There are no dangers in tape, I don't see why there is such an issue.
> 
> You don't seem to understand that the dogs have correct ears anyway.
> 
> ...


Nope, still missing the point. Yes the ears are taped for the exhibitor, because nobody wants to have a dog with the incorrect shape, and the whole point is 'breed for it', instead of ignoring that some dogs have slightly incorrect ears, and taping them up so that they don't show any fault, let the ears develop naturally, and choose your breeding stock accordingly. Is that difficult to understand?

There is no feathering on a Labs tail, some of them have a twizzle at the end which is trimmed off. And guess what, there's a good reason  Because the judge needs to see the correct length of tail in balance with the dog. And it takes seconds to trim the twizzle off the end of the tail


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Nope, still missing the point. Yes the ears are taped for the exhibitor, because nobody wants to have a dog with the incorrect shape, and the whole point is 'breed for it', instead of ignoring that some dogs have slightly incorrect ears, and taping them up so that they don't show any fault, let the ears develop naturally, and choose your breeding stock accordingly. Is that difficult to understand?
> 
> There is no feathering on a Labs tail, some of them have a twizzle at the end which is trimmed off. And guess what, there's a good reason  Because the judge needs to see the correct length of tail in balance with the dog. And it takes seconds to trim the twizzle off the end of the tail


Taping doesn't change the shape. You are either not reading what people are telling you or it really isn't going in.

Well judges need to see expression and it only takes a second too, so you must be tampering with your dog as much as others then.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Oh dear...some knickers are knotting up here...over sod all!

I cannot believe that anyone in any way believes taping or gluing (if done correctly) a dogs ears is cruel..nasty..upsetting for the dog or in any way negative.

As for the comment about breeding correctly to get pups with correct ears..really my Chis ALL have ears like blooming aerials (I swear I dont really need a Sky dish lol) but just occasionally a pup might have a soft ear whilst teething or something. Pop a bit of micropore tape on..24 to 48 hours later..sky dish ears. No distress caused..pup looks amazing..everyone is happy.

I think some people might want to actually do a bit of research before having such strong opinions on something they clearly arent clued up on


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If it doesn't alter the ear at all, why do people do it?


Have you not read the thread? Because we like how it looks.

Why do we train for straight fronts and square sits?
Why do we groom lowchens and poodles the way we do?
Why do we use rolled leather collars instead of flat ones?
Why do we breed dogs to look a certain way?
Why do we have any preference over how any dog looks?
It's all aesthetics. End of.

I would tape a pup because I like the look of a dane with properly folded ears.
And when I say tape, I mean a piece of elastikon on the ear tips, not what was shown in the videos. Just to make sure that point isn't glossed over again.
Thought apparently that also means I'm selfish and I don't love my dogs.
Fun thread


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Several things spring to mind after reading through this thread:

First of all SL it's not as easy as you seem to think to breed for erect, tipped ears - look at the two pics below of Xia and Leon, who are litter mates. Xia's ears are perfect - Leon's are dreadful. Both sire and dam had erect tipped ears and have thrown many dogs with errect tipped ears - but not Leon!

Xia - excellent ears


Leon - dreadful ears


Secondly, I have seen border collie ears being glued and people, believe me, it's nothing like that video - in fact I would think that most border collie owners would have a fit if they saw that. A bit of copydex to make the tip curl over is usually all that is used. Having said that, it's not something I would do - which is why we have such a range in our dogs' ears: Xia's are perfect, Evie's are erect and Leon and Quinny's are dreadful.

They all do well in the show ring however - Quinny and Evie have their stud book numbers so have qualified for Crufts for life, and the other two are already qualified for Crufts 2014.

Evie - pricked ears - not as good as tipped, but acceptable


Quinny - atrocious ears


And lastly - I do find it amusing that people who would happily chop bits off their dogs' tails without a second thought balk so much at a bit of ear gluing


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Bet OP won't be back on the thread again either poor sod never did get an answer


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> The point is, we humans do all sorts of things to dogs that are unnatural to them - hello selective breeding? Specialized training? Simply putting a leash and collar on a dog is not leaving him be.
> 
> As for if it's uncomfortable. Sorry, but as someone who trains 100% force free listening to people who have no issues with slip leads and other training techniques and tools complain about discomfort of taping is more than slightly ironic.


I never said my opposition to it was based on it being 'unnatural', nor did I ever say it was uncomfortable if done correctly.

My opposition to it is not based on those issues. Its based purely on not being able to get my head around being that bothered about my companion animal being 'perfect'. A show dog? Yes. I can see that. 
But when I got Dresden, he was perfect from the start. Whether his ears went upright, flying nun, one up and one down, whatever, it made absolutely no difference to how I view him or how loved he is. Therefore, I saw no purpose in taping, because it doesn't matter to me. 
Even if he had ended up with wonky ears, it wouldn't have made any difference to his hearing, his communication, his health, or anything that really mattered. 
Thats my only beef; I just don't get it. Thats just my personal view.

But I don't get lots of things people do to their pets, doesn't mean I don't think they love them. Just means they obviously have difference priorities to me. Looks matter more to them than they do to me. Thats it really.

Also, Im probably not the best person to say 'its ok if my dog kills wildlife, its all vermin anyway!' given that I run a rescue for 'vermin' and can't stand people who dismiss them as somehow not British wildlife and ok to slaughter freely :thumbsup: If you're happy with your dog wanting to kill anything it sees, Im happy for you. Not something I'd be so blasé about, to be honest, regardless of where I lived. But again, thats just me.....


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Shadowrat said:


> I never said my opposition to it was based on it being 'unnatural', nor did I ever say it was uncomfortable if done correctly.
> 
> My opposition to it is not based on those issues. Its based purely on not being able to get my head around being that bothered about my companion animal being 'perfect'. A show dog? Yes. I can see that.
> But when I got Dresden, he was perfect from the start. Whether his ears went upright, flying nun, one up and one down, whatever, it made absolutely no difference to how I view him or how loved he is. Therefore, I saw no purpose in taping, because it doesn't matter to me.
> ...


Good for you.
Didn't mean to upset you with the vermin comment.

Sorry, that's all I've got. I'm worn out with this thread.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

ouesi said:


> No. Nothing like that.
> 
> One could argue that the one being obtuse is you. You're refusing to acknowledge what has repeatedly been stated, that what most of us mean by taping is nothing like what is presented in those videos.
> You've also refused to acknowledge any post that shows your preconceived arrogant notions about those who would dare tape their puppies to be wrong.


I really don't give a fig about whether you think I have preconceived arrogant notions or not. And...I'm not here to argue with you either, I'm here to argue the dog's case as they can't speak for themselves.

It is as if a supposed 'aesthetic' look should overide everything. Even if you buy in to an ideal look for a breed this is ...wrong. Aesthetic imperfection is not something to just fix, these dogs aren't broken, they just have ears that don't fit the ideal. The fact they are almost treated like works of art to be perfected is unnerving, they are not inanimate objects.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I have this image of all our dogs, in our various homes, sitting in front of our computers in the dead of night, reading this thread and just shaking their heads in bemusement...


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> It is as if a supposed 'aesthetic' look should overide everything. Even if you buy in to an ideal look for a breed this is ...wrong. Aesthetic imperfection is not something to just fix, these dogs aren't broken, they just have ears that don't fit the ideal. The fact they are almost treated like works of art to be perfected is unnerving, they are not inanimate objects.


I have to say, you don't tend to get this in other species that are purely companions.
You get it in other species that are for _show_, understandably as looks are a big part of that world, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim they had to massage or tape their cat's ears to get them to look correct, or their rat's, or their horse, unless they were actually going to be _show_ animals.
I wonder why people care so much about the looks of companion dogs above other companion animals?


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

i've not read all the previous answers but it never entered my head to tape or glue opie and jax's ears. i don't know if they're how a dobermanns are suposed to be and frankly i don't care. having read on an american dobermann site how long they have to post and tape ears after cropping i have to admit even if i had had the chance to crop i wouldn't because it's a lot of fathing about.

jax


opie


they look perfect to me  i do miss the days of them continuously turning inside out when running though


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> I really don't give a fig about whether you think I have preconceived arrogant notions or not. And...I'm not here to argue with you either, I'm here to argue the dog's case as they can't speak for themselves.
> 
> It is as if a supposed 'aesthetic' look should overide everything. Even if you buy in to an ideal look for a breed this is ...wrong. Aesthetic imperfection is not something to just fix, these dogs aren't broken, they just have ears that don't fit the ideal. The fact they are almost treated like works of art to be perfected is unnerving, they are not inanimate objects.


Well get me being so superficial  So I have 4 Siamese cats, their personalities are a HUGE draw to them BUT I have to say hand on heart their looks also play a huge part in their appeal to me, I am utterly in love fall head over heels in love for my Siamese cats, they are my world in fact I even creep myself out how much I've loved them for most of my life, those stunning blue eyes wow.. :001_wub:

I have a love for Rott's and GSD, again love their intelligence, love their personalities, love the GSD's Loyalty love the Rott's clown like personalities, but again get me, I love their look too, OH shows so wonky ears will be taped..... What winds me up as a pet owner, is those people who think that just because people care what a breed looks like ( or god forbid shows their dogs) that some how they love or care for their pets less... No one but no one said they were inanimate..............


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> I really don't give a fig about whether you think I have preconceived arrogant notions or not. And...I'm not here to argue with you either, I'm here to argue the dog's case as they can't speak for themselves.
> 
> It is as if a supposed 'aesthetic' look should overide everything. Even if you buy in to an ideal look for a breed this is ...wrong. Aesthetic imperfection is not something to just fix, these dogs aren't broken, they just have ears that don't fit the ideal. The fact they are almost treated like works of art to be perfected is unnerving, they are not inanimate objects.


Have you read ANYTHING I've posted?
It's not an "aesthetic imperfection" for crying out loud! It's a PERSONAL preference.

This is my dog when we first rescued him:

This is him today:



Do you *really* think an "aesthetic" overrides everything? 
Do you *really* think I see my dogs as an inanimate object?

Are you really that closed minded that you can't fathom that I can love a dog AND care what their ears look like?

Maybe this will open your mind.
I think my daughter looks adorable with her hair braided. She prefers it loose. I don't love her any less when it's loose, I don't hold her down and force her to wear it braided, I generally don't think about her hair much at all TBH. I certainly don't look at other kids with loose hair and think anything at all about them.
But when my daughter does consent to a braided "do" I can't help but notice how cute it is.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Taping doesn't change the shape. You are either not reading what people are telling you or it really isn't going in.
> 
> Well judges need to see expression and it only takes a second too, so you must be tampering with your dog as much as others then.


Oh my word, what a silly accusation to throw. Let's take your first statement, taping doesn't alter the shape. So then, because I've asked this question several times and no-one has answered me, why do you tape a dog's ears if it does nothing?

Judges need to see an expression. I must be tampering with my dogs. If you mean I entice them with a bit of bait, then yes, I am tampering with my dogs. I don't however tape said bait into their mouth 



Spellweaver said:


> Several things spring to mind after reading through this thread:
> 
> First of all SL it's not as easy as you seem to think to breed for erect, tipped ears - look at the two pics below of Xia and Leon, who are litter mates. Xia's ears are perfect - Leon's are dreadful. Both sire and dam had erect tipped ears and have thrown many dogs with errect tipped ears - but not Leon!
> 
> ...


So your post goes to prove then, that within close relatives, there are some with correct ears, some without, and you could use that knowledge to breed for a correct ear shape.

Out of Indie and Tau who are half sisters, Indie doesn't have as good conformation as Tau, there are several differences, the most obvious of which is that Indie is too tall and narrow, she lacks the barrel shaped chest. It would never occur to me however to stick a frame around a chest to ensure the muscles held it into a more barrel shaped definition 

Your last paragraph doesn't even deserve comment hen.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Your last paragraph doesn't even deserve comment hen.


Heh heh - knew that one'd get you but I couldn't resist it.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oh my word, what a silly accusation to throw. Let's take your first statement, taping doesn't alter the shape. So then, because I've asked this question several times and no-one has answered me, why do you tape a dog's ears if it does nothing?
> 
> Judges need to see an expression. I must be tampering with my dogs. If you mean I entice them with a bit of bait, then yes, I am tampering with my dogs. I don't however tape said bait into their mouth
> 
> Your last paragraph doesn't even deserve comment hen.


What is silly about the fact you snipping the fur to look right means the same as putting a bit of tape on the ear?

I said expression for the dogs who have them taped or weighted.

It doesn't alter shape or size, just placement.

Why does it that not require a response, so you can have your ethics up to a point, yet other big issues you favour, it's a worthless point to you. So cutting off part of a limb is less of an issue to you then placing a bit of tape or blu tac on an ear?

I think I may be of the opinion you have your ethics back to front in some things!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> What is silly about the fact you snipping the fur to look right means the same as putting a bit of tape on the ear?
> 
> I said expression for the dogs who have them taped or weighted.
> 
> ...


Do you have a personal gripe with me or something?

I've already posted, I do the minimum grooming required, I do what I consider is good maintenance for a dog, ie strip the dead coat out, and for the sake of the show ring, I make sure the judge can see the pertinent points, such as length of tail, ear set and feet. I don't change any of that by ensuring their coat is groomed.

So taping alters placement. So in your own words then, taping alters the ears. Thank you, that proves my whole point.

I haven't cut anything off my dogs other than tail twizzles and tufty fur off their feet, so your point?

You know, I find this thread sad. I feel like people are making a point of making it into a them and us. Yes, I can see both sides, but nobody has yet answered my point about the breed standard, and if the breed standard described the dog as it was, why are we now forcing the issue with ears. What do we find acceptable next?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Can someone who tapes/would tape, their dog's ears answer me something? Does taping them affect the dog's ability to use their ears to communicate? Because M&Ms ears rotate depending on mood/how alert they are:

How I "prefer" Max's Ears:




What he also does with them:




How I "prefer" Milly's ears:


What she also does with them:










I've probably also got a few pics of flyaway ears too, but it's late and past my bedtime 

Now, what I personally prefer to see in my 2 dogs isn't necessarily how they choose to "wear" their ears that day/moment. That's fine. Does my heart make a leap when they are wearing them how I want them to? Yes. Do I go and reposition them to get them how I want them? Of course not!


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Can someone who tapes/would tape, their dog's ears answer me something? Does taping them affect the dog's ability to use their ears to communicate?
> 
> I've probably also got a few pics of flyaway ears too, but it's late and past my bedtime
> 
> Now, what I personally prefer to see in my 2 dogs isn't necessarily how they choose to "wear" their ears that day/moment. That's fine. Does my heart make a leap when they are wearing them how I want them to? Yes. Do I go and reposition them to get them how I want them? Of course not!


Lovely dogs 

No, taping shouldn't alter how a dog moves his/her ears. Nor will it change how the dog "wears" his ears, or tends to hold them - alert, off to the side, relaxed... That's all muscle. Taping simply "trains" the ear cartilage. And it only works when the pup is young, while the cartilage is still somewhat malleable.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You know, I find this thread sad. I feel like people are making a point of making it into a them and us. Yes, I can see both sides, but nobody has yet answered my point about the breed standard, and if the breed standard described the dog as it was, why are we now forcing the issue with ears.


I can only answer about border collies because I don't know enough about other breeds. The breed standard says:

_Ears
Medium size and texture, set well apart. Carried erect or semi-erect and sensitive in use._

This has been the standard for ears on a border collie forever - if you look at pictures of Old Hemp (the progenitor of most of today's border collies) his ears were tipped (semi-erect).

How much does it matter? Well, take my Quinny (with his atrocious ears) and dog X with either erect or tipped ears as an example. Now, when border collies are being judged, movement is the first thing judges look for, closely followed by conformation. If dog X did not have as good a movement and conformation as Quinny, most judges would place Quinny above him - which is why Quinny does so well in the show ring despite his ears. However, if their movement and conformation were comparable, then Quinny would lose out to dog X because of his ears.

To some people who show this is unacceptable - and so instead of leaving it to nature they help the ears along by gluing them with copydex - a procedure that is harmless in that it is not painful and goes unnoticed by the pup.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I can only answer about border collies because I don't know enough about other breeds. The breed standard says:
> 
> _Ears
> Medium size and texture, set well apart. Carried erect or semi-erect and sensitive in use._
> ...


Yes, but this is something that alters your dog, as has been admitted several times previously on this thread, otherwise there is absolutely no point in gluing, taping or doing anything to your dog.

Not something I'd want to do.

Have you worked your collies


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, but this is something that alters your dog, as has been admitted several times previously on this thread, otherwise there is absolutely no point in gluing, taping or doing anything to your dog.
> 
> Not something I'd want to do.
> 
> Have you worked your collies


It doesn't alter my dog because, as I've already said, I don't glue their ears 

(Although if I had glued Quinny's he would probably be a show champion by now, given how much he has won with atrocious ears)

But it isn't really altering the dog - just giving nature a helping hand - just as you feel that chopping a bit off a dog's tail so it can do the job of work you want it to do is giving nature a helping hand. I know we joked about it earlier, but don't you think that advocating one and decrying the other is a bit odd?

I'd love to work my dogs - and just as soon as they invent 36 hour days and nine day weeks I might be able to find the time to do so!


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You know, I find this thread sad. I feel like people are making a point of making it into a them and us. Yes, I can see both sides, but nobody has yet answered my point about the breed standard, and if the breed standard described the dog as it was, why are we now forcing the issue with ears. What do we find acceptable next?


I came in to this thread laughing and completely open minded.
I was subsequently told I am selfish, that I don't love my dogs as much as others, that I see them as object, that all I care about is a look... etc., etc., etc.

And the kicker? I've never even taped any of my dog's ears!!!! Well, other than to keep them from bleeding everywhere when they tear them up.

So forgive me if I'm being defensive, but when you have people making a point of posting the mean spirited and baiting things posted on here, then yes, it is going to turn in to an "us vs. them".

In one of my posts here, I said we should really seek to understand each other before we rush to judge each other. Obviously that went unnoticed


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I came in to this thread laughing and completely open minded.
> I was subsequently told I am selfish, that I don't love my dogs as much as others, that I see them as object, that all I care about is a look... etc., etc., etc.
> 
> And the kicker? I've never even taped any of my dog's ears!!!! Well, other than to keep them from bleeding everywhere when they tear them up.
> ...


And I've told you that where?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> It doesn't alter my dog because, as I've already said, I don't glue their ears
> 
> (Although if I had glued Quinny's he would probably be a show champion by now, given how much he has won with atrocious ears)
> 
> ...


It only takes 15 mins training per day


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It only takes 15 mins training per day


Plus travel to and from the trainers - it's arable land around here, not a sheep to be seen. I work, run a home, write, have to produce at least nine pieces of CPD every year in order to keep my professional status, have six dogs to groom and exercise, am joining with friends in the process of starting up a bergamasco club of which I am to be a committee member and the breed health co-ordinator, and I show my dogs. It's time I just don't have.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Oh deary deary me S_L.... you're either doing this on purpose to wind us up or you really need it spelling out to you :nonod:

Here we go, lets explain it in simple terms, it seems that is what's needed...

Taping or gluing DOES *NOT* (get it?) change the shape or set of the ear (are we okay with that bit?). All it does is keep the ears in place (understood?) as the puppy is teething. If this is not done, as the puppy goes through their chewing/teething phase, the muscles in the ears can strengthen in a way that they will no longer sit in their 'correct' position. This has little to do with breeding, even the most perfect natural earset in the world can go belly-up during teething. The tape merely keeps the ears in place during this time so that the muscles do not strengthen into the wrong position - this does not mean that the ears themselves are wrong. It's not masking a fault, it's ensuring they don't become a fault - like lead training ensures that pulling doesn't become a problem.

If people want to think it causes the dogs discomfort or that when doing it ethically it is cruel (for the record, I thought those videos were disgusting but that is not the way it should be done and not the way I or presumably others on this thread would ever do it!) then that's up to them, but having done it properly with our puppy, we were satisfied that she didn't find it uncomfortable... of course other people will beg to differ but OUR puppy didn't seem affected in any way.

I really can't be bothered going around in circles with this, I know Mabel wasn't in any pain or discomfort when we taped her ears, I know we did it ethically and I understand the reasons why we did it. Sleeping_Lion is just making the issue go around and around, she isn't taking in anything anyone else is saying and I believe is just spoiling for an argument. Say whatever you like S_L but it's clear from this thread and many, many others that if YOU don't agree with something then it's utterly wrong and disgusting and that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Not the first time i've noticed this in your posts and it certainly looks like nothing is going to change this time around! Not wasting any more time on this with you


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Tigerneko said:


> Oh deary deary me S_L.... you're either doing this on purpose to wind us up or you really need it spelling out to you :nonod:
> 
> Here we go, lets explain it in simple terms, it seems that is what's needed...
> 
> ...


No need for the sarcasm, Emmaviolet has already admitted it changes the natural shape of the ear


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And I've told you that where?


There you go again. I never said it was YOU who said it.

Posts like this one:


Supasilvfoxy said:


> Yes, *I think your selfish* to tape a dogs ears just because you dont like the 'look' of them, if you do something to a dog just to please your eye, that proves you're selfish in my book.
> 
> I never said in any of my posts that you didnt love them though, praps you do in your own way, but *I don't think your idea of love in any way coincides with mine.*
> 
> Yes I do think it's selfish to create breeds of dogs just to aesthetically please humans, nothing wrong with dogs left as nature intended, when all's said and done, cross a pure breed out for two generations you end up with a mongrel.


It's hard to keep a conversation on track when it gets personal like this.

I said something in this thread that was callous to another member. I tried to right it, you know, feel compassion and empathy for the human behind the screen?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> There you go again. I never said it was YOU who said it.
> 
> Posts like this one:
> 
> ...


Well it's quite easy, if you quote me, then keep the conversation on track to what I've said, not what others have said


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No need for the sarcasm, Emmaviolet has already admitted it changes the natural shape of the ear


How? I really am trying to understand. How can a piece of tape change the SHAPE of an ear? It can change how the ear LAYS yes, but how the ear is shaped? How??

Think of a napkin. I can fold it many different ways, to where it looks very different, but I still have the exact same square of cloth.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> How? I really am trying to understand. How can a piece of tape change the SHAPE of an ear? It can change how the ear LAYS yes, but how the ear is shaped? How??
> 
> Think of a napkin. I can fold it many different ways, to where it looks very different, but I still have the exact same square of cloth.


Yep, so it alter's how the ear is shaped, or lays, cheers hen.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well it's quite easy, if you quote me, then keep the conversation on track to what I've said, not what others have said


But you talked about OTHERS turing this in to an "us vs. them"???

And this is how you respond when someone says a post hurt them?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I am pro dogs, I love my breeds, so when threads like this see people just blindly saying yes, we strap pups ears up because that's how it works, it feckin infuriates me. The pedigree world is open to so much criticism and this is a prime example, we have no idea if our dogs ears are correct, but just in case they're not, we'll tape or weight them just in case.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am pro dogs, I love my breeds, so when threads like this see people just blindly saying yes, we strap pups ears up because that's how it works, it feckin infuriates me. The pedigree world is open to so much criticism and this is a prime example, we have no idea if our dogs ears are correct, but just in case they're not, we'll tape or weight them just in case.


Self righteous people feckin infuriate me... the only person being blind about anything on this thread is yourself. But of course you're right and we're wrong, you're big we're small


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I get it.

It's a bit like wearing a bra. It doesn't alter the natural shape of your boobs, but it might keep them pointing in the right direction a bit longer. 

Of course in the case of the pup with the bit of sticking plaster, the idea is to keep their ears pointing in the right direction for a lifetime.

Shame bras aren't so effective.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Elles said:


> I get it.
> 
> It's a bit like wearing a bra. It doesn't alter the natural shape of your boobs, but it might keep them pointing in the right direction a bit longer.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the laugh


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No need for the sarcasm, Emmaviolet has already admitted it changes the natural shape of the ear


How. I said the placement. Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Reckon I'm going to start having nightmares about this thread


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

...did someone say bacon pancakes? :laugh:

Makin&#39; Bacon Pancakes 10 HOUR VERSION! - YouTube


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

A bull terrier with floppy ears or nice pricked ears..I know which one I prefer and if it took a little tape to help them stand as they should ...so what 

There's a hell of a lot worse things :thumbsup:


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I feel like people are making a point of making it into a them and us. Yes, I can see both sides, but nobody has yet answered my point about the breed standard, and if the breed standard described the dog as it was, why are we now forcing the issue with ears. What do we find acceptable next?


It's the same mentality as that which produced the frightening exaggerations in some breeds to the detriment of health. Taping nowhere near as bad but its a reinforcement of the mentality of looks are the most important. If not it's perfectly okay to change it. Form is more important than function.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Dober said:


> ...did someone say bacon pancakes? :laugh:
> 
> Makin' Bacon Pancakes 10 HOUR VERSION! - YouTube


Oh Lordy.... just watched bacon pancakes and now it's STUCK IN MY HEAD! I fear I may never recover.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Elles said:


> Sticking a bit of plaster on a dog's ear wouldn't bother me. So if that's what 'taping' is, I wouldn't notice or care at all tbh.
> 
> What I see in the videos of gluing border collie ears is akin to superglue and duct tape though imo. and I do believe it probably is uncomfortable for the dog. The pup can't move his ears at all, they're have blobs of glue and pads stuck on them, then they're stitched through the glue and pads to hold them up together. In the second vid they actually use duct tape and say you can tell if you've pierced the ear as you'll see blood.
> 
> ...


I nearly threw up when watching these videos what is done to these two puppies is revolting, disgusting and cruel.

Edit to add the extra below

I honestly thought we were talking about a bit of micropore to support the ear or a bit of hair trimming and something that added a bit of weight at the ear tip such as a small amount of wax.

My Rough collie had perfectly tipped ears just by trimming hair at the sides so that the extra hair left at the ear tip caused then to tip I only had to trim when he was teething.

I wanted to add more but I'm honestly very shocked that anyone would consider doing what is suggested in these videos.

I am seriously shocked by these video's.

Also what is wrong with the red boarder collie its flattened body posture and lack of movement from the spot is unnatural.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Picklelily said:


> I nearly threw up when watching these videos what is done to these two puppies is revolting, disgusting and cruel.
> 
> Edit to add the extra below
> 
> ...


*sighs* no one has considered doing or has done anything like in these video, what you though it was IS what people were talking about, holy crap if I googled fluffy bunny I'm sure I find something sinister and vomit inducing!!!! Let's find a extreme vid and post it just to shock I think was the aim, those who chose to take it as gospel well what can I say.......................


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Picklelily said:


> I nearly threw up when watching these videos what is done to these two puppies is revolting, disgusting and cruel.
> 
> Edit to add the extra below
> 
> ...


No one on this thread has done what those videos demonstrate. There are extremes for everything, I am sure not everyone on here who uses a crate uses one for 24 hours a day but there are videos of dogs stuck in them for that long, likewise the misuse of choke collars etc.

I also doubt the trimming of the hair meant your roughs ears tipped, they most likely just tipped if the hair was trimmed or not.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Having read some of the posts on this thread, I can think of some better uses for the tape


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## Guest (May 20, 2013)

Picklelily said:


> I wanted to add more but I'm honestly very shocked that anyone would consider doing what is suggested in these videos.
> 
> I am seriously shocked by these video's.


I wish I were shocked by those videos. 
If you find them shocking you must not do a lot of work in rescue is all I can say...

If you google "Powder the great dane" you will see the nauseating result of severe crate abuse. 
I don't see anyone posting videos of Powder trying to walk any time someone mentions crating a puppy.

Personally I think it's pretty butal to throw an 8 week old puppy in a crate right off the bat as is often suggested on here (and every other dog forum), especially at night.

All of our pups have slept in the bed with us - I'm a light sleeper, I wake when they stirr, never had an accident, they potty train quicker this way, they sleep more comfortably with the extra bodies like they were used to with dam and littermates, and when they're ready, they transition very easily to a cushy dog bed on the floor.

We do crate train, but not by throwing the pup in there first day and letting him cry himself to sleep every night until he "gets used to it".

Does that mean I think every person who does this is cruel? Do I think they must not love dogs? Of course not. And I certainly don't equate putting an 8 week old puppy in a crate at night to what was done to Powder. It's all a matter of degrees, and each one of us has to decide for ourselves where to draw the line.

We each do what WE feel is best for those in our care.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Meezey said:


> *sighs* no one has considered doing or has done anything like in these video, what you though it was IS what people were talking about, holy crap if I googled fluffy bunny I'm sure I find something sinister and vomit inducing!!!! Let's find a extreme vid and post it just to shock I think was the aim, those who chose to take it as gospel well what can I say.......................


One thing I've learned since PDE - most people would much rather believe a "shock horror" story than the truth. God knows why - must satisfy some primeval need in them to feel self-righteous or something.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I'd never heard of setting a dog's ears until Susan Garrett, who is someone recommended as one of the kind agility trainers on Petforums. I'd subscribed to her newsletter and youtube and was quite impressed. First time I heard anything about gluing/taping a dog's ears was Susan Garrett's puppy and she didn't use a bit of sticking plaster. So when I read 'Gluing ears' (and OT when I see Susan Garrett's name mentioned) the videos I linked is pretty much what I think of.

As I personally don't think of a bit of sticking plaster as controversial and didn't know anyone used it, I thought the thread was about the kind of gluing/taping I'd seen in video and was surprised Ouesi in particular didn't appear to have a problem with it and replied to her in my 'anti' posting.

I linked the video to demonstrate what I was thinking of in my 'anti' posting and was very relieved to read that Ouesi doesn't agree with it and that what I understood as gluing ears wasn't necessarily what everyone else was talking about.

However, if someone is actually using glue to stick their dog's ears, I'm not sure I'd agree with it anyway and the thread title does say 'gluing ears' not sticking plaster on ears, or trimming a bit of hair from ears, or other minor assistance that doesn't stop the dog moving his ears, it says 'gluing ears'.

I didn't link to shock, I linked to show what I was talking about and what I understand as 'gluing ears'.

I didn't know that dobes in the us have their ears cropped either. I thought that US dobes were bred for different ears to uk dobes, rather like you can get different styles of ears on border collies. It was only when a us member of a horse forum posted pics of their new dobe puppy that I found out how naive I was. Well some people glue, tape and stitch their collie pup's ears too and do all manner of things to GSDs and other breeds to make their ears stand up. I had no idea, I thought everyone else did. (have an idea that is, not crop their dogs' ears).

So if people who are gluing their puppy's ears aren't doing what I linked in the videos, what are they doing with the glue?


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## Doodler (May 20, 2012)

So get a dog with the right ears then. Save yourself the price of a tube of glue!


eddie


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elles said:


> So if people who are gluing their puppy's ears aren't doing what I linked in the videos, what are they doing with the glue?


The ears I have seen glued in border collies were tips bent over and glued with copydex. The puppies didn't notice a thing and played and acted quite normally (well, as normal as a border collie pup can be, that is  )


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