# Cost of health testing?



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

How much does it cost to have a dogs hips, elbows, eyes etc... tested? 

Just wondering because lots of breeders say 'I don't make any money from breeding', but I do not see how unless the health tests are super expensive.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

To be honest it depends on the breed as tests such as hips and elbows are x-rays and Vet's usually base this cost on the weight and sizeof the dog. There are so many health tests for all different kinds of breeds. Some will need eye tests, others don't. Same applies for cardio tests and respiratory tests as some breeds need these more than others.

You also have to take into consideration the cost of mating the bitch, rearing pups, costs of birth if the bitch needs a c-section. There is A LOT of costs in breeding, not to mention the fact that you need to take time off work, around 10 weeks, to care for the bitch and pups.


Is there a specific breed you are talking about or is it just in general?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

love our big babies said:


> To be honest it depends on the breed as tests such as hips and elbows are x-rays and Vet's usually base this cost on the weight and sizeof the dog. There are so many health tests for all different kinds of breeds. Some will need eye tests, others don't. Same applies for cardio tests and respiratory tests as some breeds need these more than others.
> 
> You also have to take into consideration the cost of mating the bitch, rearing pups, costs of birth if the bitch needs a c-section. There is A LOT of costs in breeding, not to mention the fact that you need to take time off work, around 10 weeks, to care for the bitch and pups.
> 
> Is there a specific breed you are talking about or is it just in general?


Just thinking about my Labrador really. 
There were 7 pups in the litter - 5 girls and 2 boys. The breeder charged £600 for the girls and £550 for the boys. She she made £4100 on the sale of the pups. 
The Dam had her hips, elbows and eyes done. 
The Sire was a stud dog and was a FTCH with hips, elbows, eyes, PRA, CNM and EIC. I expect he cost around £600 (so that takes the price from 1 female pup).


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

breed specific.

Alaskan Malamutes need:
Hip scoring up to £300
eye testing up to £50 (must be repeated every year)

Klee Kias in the UK atm dont really do health testing but in the US it is suggested by the breed club:
full blood panel around anywhere from £50+
thyroid tests from £50+
liver function test £50+
Factor VII Deficiency £50+
patella luxation lowest I found was £30
ECG £100+
eye testing up to £50 (must be repeated every year)

you musnt forget to pay the taxman. 20% of anything goes to those robbing b*stards


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## bethj (Feb 18, 2012)

it also depends on vets as when we were ringing around one vet charged 220 for hip and elbow score and the other charged 560 :mad2: both in same area


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Just thinking about my Labrador really.
> There were 7 pups in the litter - 5 girls and 2 boys. The breeder charged £600 for the girls and £550 for the boys. She she made £4100 on the sale of the pups.
> The Dam had her hips, elbows and eyes done.
> The Sire was a stud dog and was a FTCH with hips, elbows, eyes, PRA, CNM and EIC. I expect he cost around £600 (so that takes the price from 1 female pup).


Don't forget a lot will have had their first jabs + worming etc. before going to homes, plus the food for the litter when they're no longer feeding off mum. Tell you what - I wouldn't begrudge anybody earning a grand or even two if they had to deal with 8 puppies for 2 months long, just visiting the yappy little things drove me mad for extended periods, kudos to people who can have that all nigth long. :lol:


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

dandogman said:


> Just thinking about my Labrador really.
> There were 7 pups in the litter - 5 girls and 2 boys. The breeder charged £600 for the girls and £550 for the boys. She she made £4100 on the sale of the pups.
> The Dam had her hips, elbows and eyes done.
> The Sire was a stud dog and was a FTCH with hips, elbows, eyes, PRA, CNM and EIC. I expect he cost around £600 (so that takes the price from 1 female pup).


ok so in this example by the time you have paid for your bitch,
health tested, 
innoculated,
wormed, 
fed, 
possible pregnancy scan,
possible time off work as no bitch should whelp unsupervised,
worming and innoculating pups, 
food, 
KC reg, 
possible advertising,
show fees,
petrol costs,
whelping kit inc bed and bedding.. it adds up.

take all that off the £4100, what you are left with take 20% off for the tax man, and see what the profit REALLY is.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

It really can vary a lot depending breed, if you go to your local vet or a specialist, if youre a member of a breed club and get discounts, how many health tests you do as a breeder. For dobes is aprox the following:

Minimum:
Hips- £200-£350
PHPV (eyes)- £35
vWD- £90

Extras: (for many, essentials)
Elbows- £80 (when done in addition to hips)
DCM DNA- £50
DCM yearly heart echo- £200-£300 per year
Full blood panel, thyroid, liver function ect (varies a lot) £200 a year

Im sure im forgetting something! 

But there are also all the other costs involved in breeding; from the obvious stud dog (around £800+ in my breed) and the initial injections for all the puppies, to the less obvious, like the cost of running the washing machine cleaning towels constantly! 

This is if everything goes right! If there are any issues during the pregnancy, eg caesarean ect then the prices can hit the roof. Im not a breeder, but I believe the average dobe breeder puts aside between 5-7k for a litter (dont quote me on that) 

Not to mention if your breeder actually does something with their dogs appart from breeding them (which in my mind is also essential) with the costs of showing WOW at probably around £100 every single weekend per champ show (if you're just showing one dog!)


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Starlite said:


> ok so in this example by the time you have paid for your bitch,
> health tested,
> innoculated,
> wormed,
> ...


I hate to think!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Don't forget a lot will have had their first jabs + worming etc. before going to homes, plus the food for the litter when they're no longer feeding off mum. Tell you what -* I wouldn't begrudge anybody earning a grand or even two if they had to deal with 8 puppies for 2 months long,* just visiting the yappy little things drove me mad for extended periods, kudos to people who can have that all nigth long. :lol:


No nor me. Although it would be a lot of fun at times!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> No nor me. Although it would be a lot of fun at times!


Honestly I can't see the fun in it, but then I'm not one who likes much noise in the house. Kes came from a litter of 11 pups, and the carcophony of noise that all 11 emitted was frightening. I'd be insane within a day and will leave any breeding to those with a more stable mental state.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

Don't forget - the cost of the bitch to buy (if you buy one in) and the cost of keeping a bitch for 12-16 years, costs of vet bills etc, cost of going to shows, petrol, camping/b&b/entries, buying a suitable vehicle, perhaps a caravan.... 

health tests - for eg my border collies, annual eye tests (£40) one off gonioscopy (£40) hip score (£130) DNA test for CEA & CL (about £150 each).

Traveling to the stud dog. Cost of stud dog.

Cost of food for the bitch - food for the pups, bedding, perhaps a whelping box, toys for the pups, puppy packs, worming (over £100 for the pups), vet checks for day old pups, vet checks for 7 week old pups. When Sophie (my GSD) had pups she was drinking about 4 litres of goat's milk a day and eating a ton (not quite literally) of best mince, chicken, puppy kibble etc to try and keep the weight on her and the milk flowing.. I hate to think how much her food bill was.... I was too frightened to work it out.

Extras - can be hundreds for c-section, stuff for the pups, I've had pups with pneumonia, pups with dew claws, one pup had a urinary problem and it cost me £1k to find out there was nothing they could do, so I lost a pup and that litter cost me rather a lot!

It's great if you have a good litter - lots of healthy pups, born easily and you find good homes for them and they do bring in some 'profit' which is eaten up by other things as we don't just have the bitch for that litter but perhaps for 16 years.

One of my shelties had 2 litters of pups, lost one pup, ended up with one pup born naturally, two pups by c-section, one pup had pneumonia and had a problem with her eyes (optic nerves) so she went for £50. Two pups sold for about £550 each. Those were very expensive pups (to me) so I lost a lot of money on them.... happily the mother now is an agility dog and having a great time.

I actually stopped working out the 'expenses' of me having dogs when I got to £10k (a year) - in as much as that's what I'd have to 'make' in order to then start making a 'profit'.... all 'reasonable' expenses. I have had one litter in nearly 3 years, my 'stud' dog has been used once, so really.... a profit? I don't think so.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Honestly I can't see the fun in it, but then I'm not one who likes much noise in the house. Kes came from a litter of 11 pups, and the carcophony of noise that all 11 emitted was frightening. I'd be insane within a day and will leave any breeding to those with a more stable mental state.


I am very noise sensitive but I did not notice any noise from 8 standard poodle pups.
I did not even think about the profit but expenses were not great.
Cannot believe that many breeders would take 10 weeks off work! How odd would that be. And if they did that is there choice and cannot possibly be counted in as expenses. Same with showing the dog. No one in their right mind would buy a bitch to breed from and then show it every weekend. They would buy a bitch to show because it is their hobby then have a litter which might help fund their showing.
I dont think there are many people that do not make a good profit from most litters and would not do it otherwise. Then again the majority are not health tested but even so that is only the cost of one pup. 
Surely if you have a litter of 8 pups at £600 each you could write off one pup for possible vets bills, one pup for stud fee, one for health testing, one for other costs so that would still leave you a clear £2400. Obviously if you had less pups there would be less profit and small breeds that produce small litters will not end up with so much though feed costs etc will be much less.

As for paying the tax man - why would you have to pay tax when you say there is no profit! If you were running it as a business and put down all your costs including showing for the life of the bitch there would obviously be a huge loss so not only would you not pay tax but you would have your loss to set against any other earnings so there is even more profit.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I am very noise sensitive but I did not notice any noise from 8 standard poodle pups.
> I did not even think about the profit but expenses were not great.
> Cannot believe that many breeders would take 10 weeks off work! How odd would that be. And if they did that is there choice and cannot possibly be counted in as expenses. Same with showing the dog. No one in their right mind would buy a bitch to breed from and then show it every weekend. They would buy a bitch to show because it is their hobby then have a litter which might help fund their showing.
> I dont think there are many people that do not make a good profit from most litters and would not do it otherwise. Then again the majority are not health tested but even so that is only the cost of one pup.
> ...


I agree, no need to pay the tax man until you've worked out all the expenses, which are all above board, and of course include showing your dogs. Don't forget that responsible people don't have 10 litters from each bitch (or more) but perhaps 1-3 litters... over the lifetime of the bitch so you have to work out that perhaps income of 2 litters and expenditure for 14 years and then you can start to work out 'profit'

People only make money out of breeding if they dont' care about the bitch, don't give the food, don't have the tests done, don't keep them when they've finished taking too many litters from them.

What you can't do is say - that litter brought in £2k and that's 'profit' cos it really isn't... you have to consider all the other costs and factors.

Some people will 'make' more because they do less... but only if they're byb, puppy farmers or don't think of their dogs as anything other than to make money with can you make anything like a 'profit' - breeding on a big commercial scale


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I am very noise sensitive but I did not notice any noise from 8 standard poodle pups.
> I did not even think about the profit but expenses were not great.
> Cannot believe that many breeders would take 10 weeks off work! How odd would that be. And if they did that is there choice and cannot possibly be counted in as expenses. *Same with showing the dog. No one in their right mind would buy a bitch to breed from and then show it every weekend. They would buy a bitch to show because it is their hobby then have a litter which might help fund their showing.*I dont think there are many people that do not make a good profit from most litters and would not do it otherwise. Then again the majority are not health tested but even so that is only the cost of one pup.
> Surely if you have a litter of 8 pups at £600 each you could write off one pup for possible vets bills, one pup for stud fee, one for health testing, one for other costs so that would still leave you a clear £2400. Obviously if you had less pups there would be less profit and small breeds that produce small litters will not end up with so much though feed costs etc will be much less.
> ...


This is true for backyard breeders, but not for reputable breeders. But then I think we're both already aware that my opinion of reputable and your idea of reputable are worlds apart 

In my opinion, if the only thing you're doing with your dogs is breeding them, you're not doing anything good for the breed and therefore are not reputable. To me, if a breeder wouldnt do it if they wernt making money out of it, they're not reputable.

Showing for some people can be a hobby, but for most people showing isnt just a hobby; its a way of grading breeding stock. I would never breed from a dog which didnt perform well in the ring and I wouldnt agree with people breeding dogs which dont do well in the ring or their chosen sport. Plenty of reputable breeders put endorsements on their dogs which are only lifted after the dog has shown to do well in the ring. I know people who have bought bitches to breed and are at shows every single weekend in an effort to prove them breeding worthy.

Plenty of people buy dogs as show prospects with an eye to breeding them if they do well, and plenty of people breed them anyway when they dont do well. Doesnt make it right, in my opinion of course.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Dober said:


> Showing for some people can be a hobby, but for most people showing isnt just a hobby; its a way of grading breeding stock. I would never breed from a dog which didnt perform well in the ring and I wouldnt agree with people breeding dogs which dont do well in the ring or their chosen sport. Plenty of reputable breeders put endorsements on their dogs which are only lifted after the dog has shown to do well in the ring. I know people who have bought bitches to breed and are at shows every single weekend in an effort to prove them breeding worthy.
> 
> Plenty of people buy dogs as show prospects with an eye to breeding them if they do well, and plenty of people breed them anyway when they dont do well. Doesnt make it right, in my opinion of course.


Nothing to do with the original post, but that's really interesting! I didn't know anything about that.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

With good breeding doing something with the dogs is intrinsic, it's a part of it, you don't 'just' breed, or 'just' show/do agility/trialling etc it's a package. Reputable breeders don't breed to make a profit (which is impossible if you do it reputably) but as part of their hobby - to achieve something.

The cost of the litter is far wider than the cost of health tests... as I've indicated above, the costs are extensive and the benefits of breeding are generally to produce a pup rather than to produce income, although the 'cash flow' may help, most litters don't make huge amounts...... you only make money if you only count the expenses of the time of the litter and you use your dogs as puppy making machines, you're hard hearted over veterinary treatment and food. Many pups I see from such places are thin/small and the bitches really look bad... I take pride my bitches come out of a pregnancy with just the loss of their coat, not condition.... however much it costs to buy the food... other people aren't as considerate. 

My vet always says how lovely my pups, how well my bitches look, how nice to see someone taking such care.. how a lot of the pups there aren't as well looked after....

There are dangers involved and you do have to be very pro-active at times and some people find this odd, how could they not be pro-active when lives are at stake? They'd better not let their bitch have pups.

You do need to be with the bitch in the last week of pregnancy and the first weeks of whelping, you do need that time off work if you go to work. The costs of unpaid leave could, of course, be seen as part of the expense of raising pups, but the health of the bitch and pups should come first...


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I am very noise sensitive but I did not notice any noise from 8 standard poodle pups.
> I did not even think about the profit but expenses were not great.
> Cannot believe that many breeders would take 10 weeks off work! How odd would that be. And if they did that is there choice and cannot possibly be counted in as expenses. Same with showing the dog. No one in their right mind would buy a bitch to breed from and then show it every weekend. They would buy a bitch to show because it is their hobby then have a litter which might help fund their showing.
> I dont think there are many people that do not make a good profit from most litters and would not do it otherwise. Then again the majority are not health tested but even so that is only the cost of one pup.
> ...





PennyGC said:


> *I agree, no need to pay the tax man until you've worked out all the expenses*, which are all above board, and of course include showing your dogs. Don't forget that responsible people don't have 10 litters from each bitch (or more) but perhaps 1-3 litters... over the lifetime of the bitch so you have to work out that perhaps income of 2 litters and expenditure for 14 years and then you can start to work out 'profit'
> 
> People only make money out of breeding if they dont' care about the bitch, don't give the food, don't have the tests done, don't keep them when they've finished taking too many litters from them.
> 
> ...


By law you have to show HMRC your income, breeding dogs no matter how many is included.
You have to keep a copy of ALL your expenses to show them and even if you have a tenner left over they will want their cut.

If you go to the bank and deposit a large amount it WILL flag up and the bank will investigate it, they have no legal obligation to tell you you are being investigated. They also alert HMRC who will check what you have declared, I really wouldnt want to run afoul of them. You will face a large fine plus the tax you owe.
I have worked in banks and it is up to the advisor what they flag, it could be as little as £500.

People DO make profit. A Klee Kai breeder who did no health testing sold 4 puppies at £2500 EACH recently. Wether he declared it is another story!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

dandogman said:


> How much does it cost to have a dogs hips, elbows, eyes etc... tested?
> 
> Just wondering because lots of breeders say 'I don't make any money from breeding', but I do not see how unless the health tests are super expensive.


It depends on the breed - and the costs involved are not just health-testing.

My most recent dog - costs


Hips and Elbows (incl BVA fee) - £340 (plus 4 hour round trip to vets)
*Annual* eye certificate - £50
PRA DNA Test - £150
CNM DNA Test - £50
EIC Test - £50
Colour Coat testing - £30

In addition to the above


Pre-mate testing kit - £120
Cost of taking blood for each test used - £20 (so roughly another £100) 
Stud dog - £450/£500
Scan to check if bitch in whelp - £75

That little lot comes to *just under £1,500* - then you have two trips to the stud dog (and for me - 2 days loss of earnings from having to go to the stud dog - including all costs (which I don't count - thats around £1K for two trips to the stud dog).

I know others have commented on the amount I spend when feeding my bitch during the last few weeks of pregnancy and then when weaning - but my dogs have a HUGELY varied diet as I feel it improves their constituion.

By the time the pups are 7/8 weeks old - I am getting through tinned rice in double figures, a chicken a day, oily fish and of course, whatever puppy food I am using - I easily spend around £100 a week on food.

========================

Then you have to buy in all the whelping kit - some things can be used time and again - others you will need to buy new - I spent over £150 on vet bed for my last litter.

Then there is KC registration - a mere £13 per pup - then microchipping - £25 a pup - the actual vet check is free.

==============================

As well as all the above - I wash all bedding at 90 degrees (used to be 95 - but modern machines don't go that high)

And everything gets tumble dried

One of my winter litters added an extra £700 to my bill for the period.

===================

This assumes everything goes smoothly - an out of hours c-section through a bit of checking using the out of hours services you are looking at *£1500 to £2000*.

All this - you could end up with one pup - 10 pups or no pups and no mum.

It doesn't take account of time missed off work - mine are not left alone at all until they leave - I am fortune I can work and care for them at the same time.

My last litter had KC which cost me around £300 as all the pups and resident dogs had to be treated "just in case" - another cost not factored in.

5 pups sold at £550 each - you do the maths and tell me where the profit comes from.

My last bitch only had one litter and has been neutered

A second litter from a bitch might see a small profit as all the health-tests have been done assuming you have a reasonable sized litter and no c-section.

============================

Some breeds require few or no health-tests and pups may hold a high price tag - so yes - possibly money to be made there - but seldom with a breed requiring several health-tests and all the other associated costs.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Starlite said:


> People DO make profit. A Klee Kai breeder who did no health testing sold 4 puppies at £2500 EACH recently. Wether he declared it is another story!


As I said in my post - there will be some breeds for which little or few health-tests are required and if the pups sell for a high price then yes - they will make a profit.

I haven't made a profit breeding - if I happened to it would be a bonus.

I breed because I want to try and improve on my previous generation - I WORK to earn money.

The hourly rate of working if you compare it to the amount of time spent with mum and the pups is around 15 to 20 times + that of the revenue received from selling a litter even if you don't health-tested, or premate and don't spend any money on a stud dog.

I know which way I like to earn my money and it certainly isn't dog breeding.


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