# Poorly goldfish :-(



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi, just wondering if anyone can give me some advice?

I recently got 2 goldfish for my son's birthday, just over a week ago. They are in a 16 litre tank with an internal filter. I followed the instructions the pet shop gave me, which was to add Nutrafin AquaPlus and Nutrafin Cycle and let the tank cycle for 2 days before getting the fish, and then to put them in in the plastic bag to let them adjust to the temperature for 30 mins before letting them swim out.

After having them 5 days, they started to become lethargic and sit on the tank bottom. I also noticed white spots on one of them. So I did a 25% water change, and the next day I took a water sample to the pet shop to test, as I didn't have a home test kit, and also to get some medicine for the white spot. The water tested as 0.1mg/l for nitrite, which the pet shop lady said was the only thing necessary to test for. She said to treat the water with TetraMedica GoldMed, and then do another 25% water change after 2 days, which I have done (today). I also bought a nitrite test kit, and it tested as between 0.1 and 0.25mg/l before I changed the water today.

One of the fish (the one that didn't initially appear to have the white spots) seemed to perk up initially after I gave the medication, but now it's back to sitting on the bottom, and also appears to be listing to one side. They'll both come up for food (I've cut down from 2 to one feed a day) but that's about all.

I was intending to do another water test and partial change on Tuesday, which is also when the next dose of medication is due. Is there anything else I can do to help my fish? Are they likely to survive, or does it not look good? :-(


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

She should of tested for ammonia.
2 days is no where near long enough to cycle a tank
Find a shop that knows a bit about fish


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Should I try to buy an ammonia test kit then? I had assumed the shop was right, as they are a specialised aquatic centre :-/ The instructions that came with the tank also said that 2 days is long enough if Nutrafin Cycle is added every day at first, and that it's suitable for 2 goldfish :-/


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

They seem slightly better this morning - they are moving a little, one is nosing at the gravel.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

It's also worth pointing out that 16L is nowhere near big enough for... well, any fish at all to be honest, but especially goldfish. Goldfish are very messy fish (produce a lot of waste) and they also grow very large and need lots of space. To give you an idea, my 4 year old blackmoor (one of the smaller varieties of goldfish) is easily the size of my hand, and still growing 

If they are fancy goldfish, like orandas, blackmoors or fantails, then the two of them really need a tank of at least 120-150 litres. If they are normal, common goldies then they shouldn't really be in a tank at all, as they will become far to big and active and should ideally be in a pond.

Unless you can upgrade to a MUCH larger tank in the very near future, I'd take the fish back to where you got them from and complain that they sold you unsuitable fish for your tank and gave you bad advice.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm afraid I'm very new to all this. The only fish I've had before was the family goldfish when I was a kid, and she lived in a little bowl with no filter or anything, but we had her about 10 years with no health problems, so I just assumed goldfish were easy fish to keep!

One of my fish is a comet (I think) and the other is a yellow goldfish. Since they got sick, I've been reading up and found out what you just said - a 16l tank isn't big enough. My parents-in-law have a pond that I'd always thought of as an option for if they outgrew the tank, but surely if I move them now, the stress will be too much for them? Also would the pond need a filter?


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't know masses about moving fish from aquariums to ponds, or ponds in general, but I think it might be a bit cold to move them outside now. And yes, the pond would need to have a filter really.

Theoretically, as they are babies at the moment, you could get a bigger tank for them to live in for now, and then transfer them to a pond next year when the weather is warmer?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it 

We don't have room for a bigger tank in our little flat - maybe a 20 litre, but I'm guessing that wouldn't make much of a difference. Assuming they recover from what they've got at the moment, would they be OK where they are till the warmer weather if I do extra water changes?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Well, I think Comet is a goner :-( He's lying on his side, I can't even see his gills moving, the only sign of life is that he flicks his fins every so often :-( Probably the kindest thing would be to put him out of his misery, but I don't have any clove oil, and I read that's what to use...

Still hoping Sunbeam, my yellow goldfish, might pull through... he's pretty poorly too though. He does come up and swim round the tank every so often. I tried to feed him a pea this morning as he's listing over to one side so I though he might have swim bladder issues, but he wouldn't touch it. Haven't given him anything else, so neither of them have eaten today. I just hope I'm doing the right things... poor little fishies :-(


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Comet didn't make it... RIP Comet :-( He was a beautiful fish.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Aw, I'm sorry to hear that. RIP Comet 

Is there no chance of you squeezing in a slightly bigger tank? I have a 72L tropical tank which doesn't take up a lot of room really; I think it's about 2 foot long. Even if it's not the ideal size, anything would be better than 16 (or 20) litres. Little Sunbeam really needs to be in a bigger volume of water.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm going to go back to the pet shop today and have a rant at them about their bad advice, and also see about a bigger tank.The problem is that the cabinet it's on is 42cm square, so that's as big as we can go really as we don't have room for another piece of furniture to put it on. Also we would obviously need to keep Sunbeam in the old tank while the new one cycles, which limits space even more.

So I really don't know what to do right now, and I'm really angry with the pet shop, as well as feeling guilty that I didn't do more research before getting the fish, rather than relying on the advice of the so-called experts at the pet shop!


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm glad that you're going to complain to the shop, it infuriates me that people are not told the facts when buying fish. It's not fair on either the fish or the people buying them.

If you do manage to get a bigger tank though, you wouldn't need to cycle it first, I would just transfer Sunbeam straight over. If you think about it, the tank you have now isn't cycled either, but at least in a bigger tank he would have a bigger volume of water. Just make sure that you either move the old filter over to the new tank, or put the old filter sponges into the new filter. That way any good bacteria that you do have will go into the new tank with Sunbeam


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks so much for all the advice, I do appreciate it 

On a more positive note, Sunbeam seems happier today. He's swimming all around the tank, albeit a little slowly, and his dorsal fin is sticking up again rather than flat against his body.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Do you know someone with a tank that has been running a while, ask them if you can have a bit of their foam out of their filter (not rinse it) and put it in your tank either in the filter or next to it, this transfers the bacteria that breaks down the nasties in your tank.

It also helps having a temperature gauge on your tank, and a heater that you can put in (not permanently) when fish are being treated for white spot or other ailments. The heater should be turned up so that temperature of water is 25c or just above. You should also take out any carbon media that is in the filter (Not all Filters have it).

I know it says that goldfish are coldwater fish they in fact can tolerate a lot of fluctuation in temperature. 

I agree a 16l tank is fair too small, believe it or not in fishkeeping the bigger the tank the easier they are to keep.

I hope this helps a little.

So sorry about your Comet. RIP little fishy.

At the end of the day a Pet Shop is a business it is there to make money the less information they give the more fish that die the more money you spend there.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

> Do you know someone with a tank that has been running a while, ask them if you can have a bit of their foam out of their filter (not rinse it) and put it in your tank either in the filter or next to it, this transfers the bacteria that breaks down the nasties in your tank.


Thanks PetloverJo. The only person I know who has an aquarium has a saltwater one I think, would that matter?

So, I went to the pet shop today and asked to speak to the manager. He basically told me that they used to tell customers to cycle tanks for 2 weeks before they sold them any fish, and not to put fish in too small tanks, but they were losing customers to Pets At Home, who were just selling whatever and however the customer asked for :-/ So I said it would have been nice to be given the info and then at least being given the opportunity to make my own decision, and he did apologise and say he would tell staff to do that in future. So hopefully I helped a little...

He offered to replace Comet, but I said the last think I needed was another goldfish in my 16l tank. I did look for bigger tanks, but couldn't afford their prices without them accepting the small tank back, so am bidding for a second-hand one on Ebay. The auction doesn't end for another 2 days though, so just hoping the water changes I'm doing are enough to keep Sunbeam OK until then... :-/


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> Thanks PetloverJo. The only person I know who has an aquarium has a saltwater one I think, would that matter?
> 
> So, I went to the pet shop today and asked to speak to the manager. He basically told me that they used to tell customers to cycle tanks for 2 weeks before they sold them any fish, and not to put fish in too small tanks, but they were losing customers to Pets At Home, who were just selling whatever and however the customer asked for :-/ So I said it would have been nice to be given the info and then at least being given the opportunity to make my own decision, and he did apologise and say he would tell staff to do that in future. So hopefully I helped a little...
> 
> He offered to replace Comet, but I said the last think I needed was another goldfish in my 16l tank. I did look for bigger tanks, but couldn't afford their prices without them accepting the small tank back, so am bidding for a second-hand one on Ebay. The auction doesn't end for another 2 days though, so just hoping the water changes I'm doing are enough to keep Sunbeam OK until then... :-/


I doubt it would matter as salt can be used in freshwater tanks along with medication.

I've given poorly fish a saltbath before to make them better.

Salt in a Freshwater Aquarium - Using Salt in a Freshwater Aquarium


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks for that link; I was wondering whether I ought to use salt, and if so, how much. The information you posted is helpful  I guess I need to buy some non-iodised salt then!


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I personally wouldn't add salt. Salt baths are sometimes used to treat sick/injured fish but adding salt to your tank right now will alter the water chemistry and so add stress to an already stressed fish.

Just keep doing daily water changes using treated water until you can transfer your fish.

Good on you for caring and doing so much to help this little fellow


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

OK, I bought some aquarium salt from the pet shop, it contains a pH buffer so I thought it's probably the best thing. Having read your post, though, I'll keep it for future use 

Bidding on a 60 litre aquarium on ebay... the hubby's not convinced, as it means a major rearrangement of our front room! I guess I'll need to put both the old and the new filters in at first, as the old one's too small for the aquarium but it contains the beneficial bacteria.

Sunbeam is looking much happier, swimming all around the tank  It's funny, she seemed to perk up really quickly after Comet died :confused1: I just hope moving to a new home won't stress her out too much, just as she's starting to get better!

Quick question - I mentioned to the pet shop manager that she's got some small black patches at the edges of her fins. He said that's good as it's a sign of new growth, meaning she's recovering. Is this correct? (I don't trust the pet shop advice any more!)


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

The hubby put his foot down over the 60 litre tank. Picking up a 40 litre today though! Then off to the pet shop to buy filter, gravel, decor... Anything else I need? How about an airstone, or will the filter provide enough aeration?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi folks, just wanted to ask this question again in case people missed it (I tagged it on to a previous post):



> Quick question - I mentioned to the pet shop manager that she's got some small black patches at the edges of her fins. He said that's good as it's a sign of new growth, meaning she's recovering. Is this correct? (I don't trust the pet shop advice any more!)


Thanks


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

NaomiM said:


> How about an airstone, or will the filter provide enough aeration?


Gas exchange is only going to take place at the surface. As long as the suface water is moving you don't need airstones


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I wouldn't trust the pet shop's opinion on the black fin marks. Without seeing it it's impossible to know just what it is. 

A gravel syphon/vacuum for cleaning the bottom of the tank is essential, especially with a fish as messy as a goldfish. Vacuum out the bottom of the tank as often as you can.

Water conditioner to make the tap water safe.

As long as your filter aggitates the surface of the water in your tank an air pump/stone is unlikely to add any extra benefit.

Most important thing will be large frequent water changes. As the tank is uncycled and small, your fish will be swimming in an ammonia solution - large water changes will at least dilute this and hopefully limit the damage.

Whatever you do these are emergency measures only and the fish will need moving into a pond or large tank as soon as possible if it is to survive.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the info 

I went to see the 40l tank, checked the measurements and it turned out to be more like 35l, so I didn't get it. Managed to talk the hubby round, and have just won a 70l on ebay! :

I already ordered a gravel syphon and it should arrive any time now. I was going to buy one from the pet shop when I first got the fish, but they told me I wouldn't need one for at least a month :mad2:

My parents in law are going to clean out their pond and check their filter, so hopefully we can move Sunbeam there next year when the weather warms up. (Expect lots more questions from me nearer the time about how to get the pond ready and transfer a goldfish!)

I'm so glad I found this forum, and thank you all for your patience with my endless questions!


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Well done!

The 70L should dramatically increases this fishes chance of survival. Just keep up the water changes.

I'm amazed how much you are doing for this little creature. I think you're wonderful to care so much. Hope he/she makes it. 

And once your goldfish is rehoused in the pond your 70L will be big enough to house some more suitable fish


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

NaomiM said:


> Managed to talk the hubby round, and have just won a 70l on ebay! :


Fantastic! Well done you


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Sunbeam isn't a happy fishy this evening :-( Fin down, lying on the bottom :-(


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Sory to see this  
How is Sunbeam this morning? If he/she is still with us try a big, 50% water change with treated water.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

She's a fighter, she must be feeling really rotten with the ammonia and nitrite in her system, but she's still going. She alternates periods of swimming around and lying on the bottom. Still has the clamped fins when she's swimming, though.

I've just done the 50% change and will keep an eye on the nitrite levels, and get myself an ammonia test kit as soon as I can (been working all day today so haven't had the chance yet).

BTW, when I put new water in, I don't have a tank thermometer, so I just do a finger dip to check the water temp 'feels' about the same, and then add it gradually, in 2 or 3 lots spread over an hour or so. Hope that's OK? (I always use a water conditioner of course )


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I always just use the finger dip, even with tropicals. A small change in water temp shouldn't cause any harm, especially if it's slightly warmer. And you can add the whole lot at once. 

Hope fishy makes it.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks  She's still with us, and I'm doing daily 50% water changes at the moment to try to bring the nitrite levels down until her new 70l tank is ready for her (hopefully tomorrow!)


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Glad to hear she's still with us. You're doing all the right things - noone could have tried harder. I really hope she makes it.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

The best test kit is an API master test kit, seems expensive but lasts ages and gives more accurate results.

You are doing brilliantly.:thumbup1:


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the encouragement 

She's still with us - after looking like she wouldn't last the night - but she's currently doing barrel-rolls all over her tank, and then floating around on her side :001_unsure:

Is this a swim bladder issue, or is she just too weak to swim properly?

In the process of filling the new tank up now. I think the move will either help her or kill her - either way is probably better than what she's going through right now


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

So sorry, it doesn't sound good. You could try holding off food, lowering the water level and raising the temperature a little. 

The trouble is these fish are often bred in appalling conditions, transported vast distances and then bought and placed into a uncycled tank on the dreadful advice of the pet shop staff. They hardly stand a chance.

Still have my fingers crossed that she'll make it but whatever happens you've certainly done all you could and far more than anyone else would have.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

After less than an hour in her new tank, Sunbeam has sadly given up the fight.  RIP Sunbeam - you were a fighter to the very end.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

So sorry to hear about your fish. I really don't think you could have done anymore than you already had.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Such a shame...so sorry. There really was nothing more you could have done. You are a wonderful person to try as hard as you did.


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