# Are certain breeds not reliable offlead?



## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Firstly, I don`t intend to start an argument and I`d really appreciate it if everyone can stay civil-ish as it was something I was thinking about before and I thought it would be interesting to discuss 

I`ve read about Northern breeds (Siberian Huskies, Alaskan Malamutes etc) not being reliable offlead. I`ve not done much in depth research, but from what I gather this is due to the fact they were bred to just run and run? 
All the serious Northern breed owners I know keep theirs on a lead unless in a properly fenced in area, although all the `pet' owners I`ve come across, let theirs offlead.

However I`ve also read about other types of dogs not being reliable offlead.
Scenthounds for example, I`ve read are not reliable offlead.

I`ve also read online that sighthounds are unreliable offlead. The sighthounds I come across are all offlead, although I know a few retired Greyhounds which are kept onlead. I know some people on here keep their sighthounds on a lead. Although I also know there are members on here who let their sighthounds offlead- different sighthounds. For example all the PF Whippets I can think of, go offlead and I know @BlueJay sighthounds go offlead and I know there is a member on here with a Greyhound who goes offlead.

Then some sites say terriers are unreliable offlead and shouldn`t be let off. I personally own a terrier and he goes offlead often. I understand he is a dog and anything could happen, but surely that is the same for any dog, regardless of breed? I kept him on a lead for the first 18 months or so of his life as I constantly read that terriers aren`t good offlead and I worried he would run away. However after 18 months, I reliased that I had a problem as I had a dog that had never been offlead outside of his property and he had no recall. So I bought an assortment of flexi leads and long lines and we established a pretty good recall. I wasn`t intending on letting him offlead, I just wanted the security of a recall but after a short while, I decided that actually it would be nice to go to the park and walk him offlead, like all the other dog owners. So we dropped the lead and all went well 

So what do you think? 
Do you think if a breed is said to be unreliable offlead, then you shouldn`t risk it and should offer alternative solutions and if you don`t like that, you should select a different breed of dog?
Or do you think breeds have little impact on the individual dog and it is always best to go with that individual dogs traits, so you let the dog off from puppy hood and establish a solid recall and if after your best efforts your dog is unreliable offlead you keep him/her onlead, otherwise all is good? (like any dog, I suppose)
Or are you in between and think that if you get a breed which is deemed unreliable offlead, then you should bear this in mind and be prepared to end up with a dog that is unreliable despite your best efforts and expect to put more recall effort than say a BC or a Lab but you should also go with that individual dog and its traits outside of what breed it is?

I personally am in between and think whilst breed traits should be kept in mind certainly, you should also look at that individual dog and its own traits and I think even if you never intend to purposely let your dog off his/her lead, you should still establish a good recall so if you leave a door open or the lead breaks or whatever and your dog ends up loose, you have something to go by, so you can get your dog back safely. 
I think there are certain DOGS that should never be trusted offlead because of their own traits, but breeds? I think each dog needs to be treated as an individual.

Quotes off various sites



> Terriers cannot be trusted off-lead -- they are too likely to "take off", oblivious to your frantic shouts, after anything that runs.





> Whippets need access to a large fenced area -- fenced because these independent dogs are likely to take off and not come back





> Like any dog- needs a lot of exercise to keep him fit and contented, but this must be done ON lead.


 (regarding Huskies)


> Cannot be relied on to return to you on command. He will decide whether or not to return for himself, knowing that you cannot catch him.


 (again Huskies)


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

Our boy is an ex racer greyhound and we certainly cant trust him off lead! We have tried training recall in enclosed areas and he does come back but there is no way we could trust him in the woods where even his favorite treats get ignored while he squirrel hunts. 
I do know of some greyhounds who are fine off lead but I personally wouldn't risk it with our boy. 
I know of someone in our local park who owns a saluki cross who has no recall whatsoever. The owners allows the dog to run round in the woods, sometimes even heading home and coming back later to find their dog!


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I think you should never ignore breed traits. As you know I own 4 sibes, I train recall religiously whether it's in an enclosed area or on a 100ft leash but how they act in these situations is completely different to if they got off in the open. 

Skyla for example is perfect at offlead, comes when called very obedient however she's got off her lead once along a beach front and she was off! I tried every trick in the book to get her back and only managed to when she stopped to pilfer someones dinner :Facepalm

I've just heard too many stories of people teaching their sibe to be "offlead" only for it to go horribly wrong one day and the old " They've never ran off before" one local to me was found dead on the railway lines after being an offlead dog for 7 years. It chased a rabbit over a main road, down into the dene and out onto the railway lines in front of an oncoming train. 

I would just never risk it with a northern breed.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I have a Jack Russell bitch and she does often have time off lead, but I have to be selective where.

Under normal circumstances, her recall is brilliant and she will walk past other dogs without giving them a glance. When we walk along the tow path, we often have to move to the side to allow a cyclist or jogger to pass and Rosie knows what "move" and "wait" mean. She will step smartly to the side and not move a muscle until she's told she can.

However, if she were to see a squirrel or a rabbit, all sense goes out of the window and she just goes. Nothing will get her back ......... she goes into a zone where nothing else exists.

I'm sure someone more skilled at training than I could stop her doing this, but I'm not that good, so I prefer to be realistic about what I'm dealing with, allow her offlead where I can be sure it's safe, and keep her on a training line where necessary.


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I think you should never ignore breed traits. As you know I own 4 sibes, I train recall religiously whether it's in an enclosed area or on a 100ft leash but how they act in these situations is completely different to if they got off in the open.
> 
> Skyla for example is perfect at offlead, comes when called very obedient however she's got off her lead once along a beach front and she was off! I tried every trick in the book to get her back and only managed to when she stopped to pilfer someones dinner :Facepalm
> 
> ...


Everything you have said sounds just like greyhounds. 
Our boy will come back nine times out of ten in an enclosed area yet when he's in the woods he pays us hardly any attention. We have literally waved treats in front of him and he just ignores them! We let him off lead once on a beach with some fellow greys and he took off. 
The greyhound owners I know who have let theirs off lead by the sound of it dont have 100% recall.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2015)

My take FWIW...

Breed traits are real. There is a reason cowboys don't herd cattle with bloodhounds while riding clydesdales. 

However, traits are exactly that, traits, not absolutes. Being aware of breed traits means you're not surpised when your beagle's nose takes over, but it doesn't mean you just assume it will always be that way. You train with traits in mind, and at the end of the day you keep your expectations realistic based on what your dog has shown you. 

Not all dogs are capable of all things. That's not just breed traits but individuals as well. Michael Ellis uses an analogy where he says he could train every day for his whole live, he's never going to be able to run like an olympic sprinter.
I have dogs who have been trained extensively to not eat our resident cats. They are very good about following their training, but I would never trust alone with cats. They live in the house with cats and are fine if we are there, but unless someone is there, I would not trust them alone. 

Speaking of individuals, there is also a lot of variability within each breed. So just because most sighthounds aren't reliable off leash, doesn't mean that there aren't individuals within the breed who are. Owners need to knwo their dogs, and train and manage appropriately. 

Finally, the whole reliability thing. No dog, no matter how impeccably trained, is going to be 100% reliable at anything. Taking the leash off is always going to be a calculated risk based on what you know of your dog, your dog's training, the environment, and all sorts of other factors.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Both of mine I have off lead but only in safe places, especially with Bigby as if he sees a bird he is OFF currently and he can be very far away from me in seconds.
Io also will chase anything so if were in an area known for a lot of wildlife they're on lead but open fields away from traffic, they're off lead.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't think there are any definites but certain breeds can have a tendency to be less reliable than some others.

It does depend on the individual dog too, it's breeding, early upbringing and background, the owner and their ability/willingness to train, etc.

I think if you go for a breed that is known to have possible recall/offleash challenges, then you need to be prepared for a dog that may not fit an "ideal". I'm pretty sure that my own Saluki x Greyhound may well have bounced back to the rescue if someone had taken him who only wanted a dog that could be let off over the local park to chase a tennis ball.

I wasn't really fully aware of the possible issues of his breed, but taking on a rescue I had accepted that I may not end up with a "perfect" dog. He is an angel in every other way, so I actually think I was very lucky


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2015)

Sweety said:


> I'm sure someone more skilled at training than I could stop her doing this, but I'm not that good, so I prefer to be realistic about what I'm dealing with,


This is another good point. Just because I am not able to accomplish something, doesn't mean it's not possible.

I know a gal with a mixed breed (some sort of herder and bull breed mix), her first dog, and she never really taught any recall, and unsurprisingly the 5 year old dog is never off leash, and has no recall. She just assumes he is not a dog who is able to learn recall. 
I don't think this is the case, he is a very attentive dog and super easy to work with, and I bet he could easily learn a pretty good recall. But this owner is wise enough at least to realize she has not trained a recall and thus the dog doesn't go off leash.

For me recall is a non-negotiable, especially given where we live, so I'm highly motivated to teach it, teach it well, I have the resources and environment in which to do it, and resident dogs who help new dogs learn it, so it's much easier for me to end up with a dog with good recall than say a first time dog owner without prior experience teaching recall, the knowledge and tricks to do it well, and access to safe off-leash areas in which to practice.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pointers  - of the English variety that is. They are very trainable dogs obviously due to their working functions but there are an awful lot of them particularly those from working lines who can't be trusted off lead. A chap who helped us a lot when we first got Arthur from rescue (bearing in mind we had already trained two GSP's to recall perfectly well) told me the number one thing people entered into google to find their way to his website was "pointers running off". I've never owned a dog before that we couldn't trust off lead and found it heart breaking to see such an athletic dog stuck on a lead for so much time but with a lot of hard work we have got him to a point where he can be off lead some of the time in certain selected areas (in the middle of remote areas away from roads and livestock) but he will never be an off lead everyday in every area dog and my OH has to work really hard when he is off, keeping up with him and whistle directing him, I'm usually to be found half a mile behind trying to keep up, If the wind is blowing in the wrong direction or he is having a day when he isn't listening to the whistle then he doesn't get let off.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sadly, I think there are too many owners of dogs with unreliable recalls who are prepared to "risk it"


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

This is an interesting thread.
A matter of days ago whilst walking back home through the woods, I stopped and chatted to a lady with a small doodle of some description and the dogs had a good sniff. She was thoroughly confused as to why my friendly dog was on a lead in the woods. I explained that despite intensive and constant training, his recall is somewhat selective the second he sees anything more exciting than me and the treats in my pocket. Which can be anything. Squirrels. Children. Interesting leaves....
She was quite funny with me about it and assured me that all I need to do is teach him to come back. According to her he is missing out *rolls eyes*.
Aside from the fact that we were walking back from a mostly enclosed field we go to most days to run off lead in and play frisbie, Logan is mostly greyhound and border collie and the rest of him is saluki with a drop of whippet in the background too. In enclosed and controlled spaces, he is great. In the open with distractions, in a woodland that runs directly adjacent to the M40, no... I don't trust him.
I knew when I was looking for lurchers that recall would likely be an issue. I have worked on it as much as I feel I can and shall continue to do so. But I don't think that I will ever completely trust him.
Perhaps some of this is my lack of skill as a trainer. But I have little doubt that his biggest hurdle is his wiring.

Saying that, it seems a good half of the off lead dogs we meet locally have recall as poor as his but are given freedom to roam anyway....


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I think you should never ignore breed traits. As you know I own 4 sibes, I train recall religiously whether it's in an enclosed area or on a 100ft leash but how they act in these situations is completely different to if they got off in the open.
> 
> Skyla for example is perfect at offlead, comes when called very obedient however she's got off her lead once along a beach front and she was off! I tried every trick in the book to get her back and only managed to when she stopped to pilfer someones dinner :Facepalm
> 
> ...


As I have said before everything you are saying here applies equally to my poodles yet no one suggests every poodle must be kept on the lead. Accidents happen and a dog that has been offlead for 7 years then chases a rabbit could be absolutely any breed. Years ago a friend lost her obedience and always off lead GSD the same way (under a train). No one would ever say every GSD must be kept on the lead.
I think breed traits are very important and I would never choose to own many breeds because their traits would not suit me or my lifestyle but they are all individuals and I would not assume that they could not be let off the lead.

My collies were absolutely safe off lead. They had instant recalls and instant drops if that was more appropriate. I cannot envisage any situation where any of them would have blown a recall or tried to run off.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It wont seem to let me quote you lurcherlad bu you said 'Sadly, I think there are too many owners of dogs with unreliable recalls who are prepared to "risk it"
and I would turn that round and say there are far too many owners that keep their dogs on the lead 'just in case' and reduce their quality of life. A lot of owners would far rather take a slight risk and give their dog freedom.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> Sadly, I think there are too many owners of dogs with unreliable recalls who are prepared to "risk it"


I suppose many would say we fall into that category and I'm probably laying myself open to a battering here but yes each time we let Arthur off the lead we are taking a risk but it is a calculated one. We take him to certain parts of the forest a few times a week, that is the only place he goes off lead because we know it so well and know he is far enough away from a road and there are no sheep around. He wears a tracker collar so we can check where he is at any stage if (which he frequently is) he is out of sight and my OH makes the decision whether to let him off based on whether he is responding to instructions and what direction the wind is. However at times if he gets a scent he does go off free range and doesn't respond to the whistle (which is presumably why a good working dog ended up a stray in a pound about to be PTS in the first place) at which point OH tracks him and as long as he is in a safe area we wait it out for him to come back but if he is heading too far then OH has to run after him. Usually he has found pheasant or partridge and is scenting the ground beating his tail in a complete trance and is totally unaware of OH blowing the whistle even when he is close until he actually touches him then he goes all silly and excited to see him. To be honest if my OH were ill or something happened and I was left to look after Arthur on my own he would never be let off. Perhaps another owner (such as a working owner) could have him with a reliable recall in all circumstances but for us we manage and work with him to the best of our ability and in nearly 4 years we haven't had any real problems although I have absolutely no doubt we would if we risked him off lead in unsuitable areas.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

Some owners seem to take more than a calculated slight risk and its simply luck that their dog hasn't come a cropper. I know someone that regularly walks in woods & would just go back to carpark while dog was off somewhere & was annoyed when a concerned stable owner contained dogs & called them to collect as to her dogs would return to car eventually, dog could've been at risk with horses (thankfully livestock is sparse) and are roads surounding each side of those woods.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I suppose many would say we fall into that category and I'm probably laying myself open to a battering here but yes each time we let Arthur off the lead we are taking a risk but it is a calculated one. We take him to certain parts of the forest a few times a week, that is the only place he goes off lead because we know it so well and know he is far enough away from a road and there are no sheep around. He wears a tracker collar so we can check where he is at any stage if (which he frequently is) he is out of sight and my OH makes the decision whether to let him off based on whether he is responding to instructions and what direction the wind is. However at times if he gets a scent he does go off free range and doesn't respond to the whistle (which is presumably why a good working dog ended up a stray in a pound about to be PTS in the first place) at which point OH tracks him and as long as he is in a safe area we wait it out for him to come back but if he is heading too far then OH has to run after him. Usually he has found pheasant or partridge and is scenting the ground beating his tail in a complete trance and is totally unaware of OH blowing the whistle even when he is close until he actually touches him then he goes all silly and excited to see him. To be honest if my OH were ill or something happened and I was left to look after Arthur on my own he would never be let off. Perhaps another owner (such as a working owner) could have him with a reliable recall in all circumstances but for us we manage and work with him to the best of our ability and in nearly 4 years we haven't had any real problems although I have absolutely no doubt we would if we risked him off lead in unsuitable areas.


I don't think I would though 

From the sound of it, you are striving to give this dog the opportunity to run off lead for his own wellbeing, whilst making every effort to cover all bases and keep him safe, minimising the chances of a "fail".

I was really referring to the type of owner who, despite knowing their dog has little or no recall but would rather take the risk of letting him off at the local playing fields which is unfenced and surrounded by roads, so they can stroll along texting, or stand chatting to other owners, whilst the dogs run riot, and hope the dog comes back at the end of it!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I think you should be aware of breed traits, but to not automatically assume all dogs in that breed can/cannot be offlead.


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## Dobermutt (Jan 22, 2014)

There's a man who walked his two Greyhounds off-lead at the field that we walk at each day. One was about 2 years old and the other was 14. A fenced-off train track runs along the back of the field and whenever a train went by, the younger Greyhound would run from one end of the field to the other, chasing the train. I always thought that it was lucky there was a barrier there! 

A couple of months ago, they turned up at the field as usual. A train came along within minutes and sure enough, she went catapulting off after it. A few minutes later, as we were leaving, the man rushed up to me - he was very distressed and said that she'd run off after the train and disappeared.  It was quite scary really, as the only exit from the field leads straight onto a busy dual carriageway.  I looked for her on my way home but with no luck. He turned up again two weeks later with just the older dog. I've no idea if he never found her or if he'd just decided it'd be better not to bring her. Hopefully it was the latter - she was a lovely dog. 

There's a beautiful Alaskan Malamute that gets on very well with Harley and has ran across a busy road, twice, to say hello to him. She's always alert and even if she sees a car pull up in the car park, she'll run the whole way across the field to see who's getting out of it.  She's friendly, but if she were my dog, I'd keep her on the lead - especially in such an open area so close to roads. There's also a Husky X Malamute that is exactly the same and will chase anything and everything - including young children that were running around.  They were terrified. Again, very friendly, but would've been better off staying on the lead.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

When we got Willow it took us 2months to test out off lead, by that point we had an idea of what made her tick etc.. Nice open beach with no1 around, all went well. How ever, on the fields with possible dogs popping up.. Big no no. She's also quite chasey but has no stamina.. She's shot off after a duck before and soon come back after she'd fallen into the pond  
Kyzer, gsd x .. Obviously a very trainable breed but he loves to chase. From day one coming home we did no lead and worked on us being more interesting than anyone else.. Us running away suddenly was the funest thing ever! I've had a few recall blips but can probably count them on 1 hand for the whole 21months of his life. But if we hadn't trained it into him, he'd be off playing with every Tom dick n Harry I reckon.. Where as now he recalls from chasing cats, which to us is huge cos he loves chasing! 
Bob.. We were told he was 'great off lead, just whistle and he'll come back' :Hilarious biggest lie to our face ever. He'd run off after someone 2 football pitches away if he could. Way too excited at absolutely everything. Long line all the way for freedom. With no distractions he's great but the tiniest distraction and his brain can't handle it :Woot .



Sweety said:


> sure someone more skilled at training than I could stop her doing this, but I'm not that good, so I prefer to be realistic about what I'm dealing with, allow her offlead where I can be sure it's safe, and keep her on a training line where necessary.


Definitely this. Willow could probably have a fab recall but I'm happy as we are 



ouesi said:


> Finally, the whole reliability thing. No dog, no matter how impeccably trained, is going to be 100% reliable at anything. Taking the leash off is always going to be a calculated risk based on what you know of your dog, your dog's training, the environment, and all sorts of other factors.


This  kyzers great off lead but if people are around / passing people, I still lead him up 'just incase' or I change direction to avoid 

There's a lady who walks 2 sibling whippets.. Their recall is terrible, yet she still lets them off :Wideyed I lost my rag with the situation the other day :Yawn but I'm pretty sure she learnt her lesson by the end of it.. Normally I'm quite patient and understanding but this was too many times of it happening 

I'd always be wary of breed traits but do my best to train a good recall, if that's not possible then the long line would be used  
I didn't even know sibes weren't 'allowed' offlead til I joined here, I remember walking an ex's sibe in the dark, offlead and it was all snowy... It could of gone horribly wrong  but I didn't know that at the time :Wideyed all went well luckily and she came back to be leaded up when asked. :Nailbiting


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sweety said:


> However, if she were to see a squirrel or a rabbit, all sense goes out of the window and she just goes. Nothing will get her back ......... she goes into a zone where nothing else exists.
> 
> I'm sure someone more skilled at training than I could stop her doing this, but I'm not that good, so I prefer to be realistic about what I'm dealing with, allow her offlead where I can be sure it's safe, and keep her on a training line where necessary.


That's my Lab - she's 100% better now than she was when I got her. We use 'ball' for focus and it's been amazing - but I'm still careful where she gets off-lead, beaches are fine but dense woods are a no!

Generally, I always think of the Northern breeds being not great off-lead (I met a guy at the beach the other week who'd lost his, I asked if she usually got off as I have hardly ever seen one off-lead and he said now & then but she tends to run off!), Other than that Greyhounds, Beagles etc


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

There are a couple of things to remember

a) The exception does not prove the rule ie just because Mr Bloggs with a (insert name of relevant breed) can recall his dog from (insert relevant distraction) only means that he has an "atypical" individual of that breed.

b) I have known exceptional dog trainers who have "lost" their chosen breed from time to time, sometimes for hours or, in one case, days. They have all said, without exception, that they have accepted the fact that their breed will never be reliable off lead in most circumstances

c) One only has to look at which breeds are never selected by serious competitors in eg Working Trials, IPO, Obedience etc or Assistance Dogs, Military Dogs, Police Dogs, SAR etc etc etc to determine which breeds are not exactly "handler dependent". 

d) Whilst it is POSSIBLE to train some "other" breeds for some tasks for which they were not originally designed it is not PROBABLE. It also means that you are going to take at least twice as long (assuming you are a brilliant trainer and the dog is "atypical" of its breed) and perhaps longer (with a typical specimen) that most of us have not got that long to live.

e) Genetics trump everything

f) I would not use a crayon to write up a thesis...............


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I believe no dog is 100% reliable, my two are fairly good but that is more through luck the anything else, or though Hector did turn turtle and trotted off down the bank the other day and and he went completely deaf and only stopped when I caught up with him and tapped him but he was in a complete trance after a smell and thankfully he didn't go at full speed as goodness knows where he would have ended up.

I regularly meet someone with 2 rescue greyhounds that are off lead and she has told me that they do at times take off but she takes the chance because it's only once in a blue moon, and a chap with a husky type rescue that is enormous it is the size of a bear and dwarfs the poor chap but he never lets it off it's lead and it walked on a standard short lead but he was told by the rescue to never let it off, and I met a beautiful Saluki last week 3 times on one walk, he was called Oscar but I don't think anyone told him that that was his name and that he should return when called as he was just running round like a crazed loon very rarely checking back in with his owner.

There is also a pair of dog walkers who have a mix of husky type dogs that they walk, so are let off some not, but the ones they let off are pretty out of control so I hate to imagine what the on lead ones are like, but the woman is often running across the field to retrieve her dogs, if we see them we change direction.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Add to this there are a huge number of owners of what I would call very biddable and trainable breeds who have not for whatever reason trained their dog to recall and who regularly risk not only the safety of their own dog(s) but those of others not to mention other walkers and road users.

Only this afternoon I had to put the binoculars to my eyes in order to locate what and where the screaming of (insert name) "Come" originated from.It was a Golden Retrieve who came over to me and my dogs from THREE fields away. 

Sigh.

There are a lot more dogs that should be on leads which unfortunately are not IMHO and it is they who get punished by other dogs, other owners or traffic, not the owner.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I have an Alaskan Malamute who goes off leash. I know some won't agree with him going off leash, but I've never had an issue with him. He's never ran far (too lazy actually), and always comes back. Only time he's wandered off was into a stream and he got stuck :| I had to rescue him as he was tried to climb up the small waterfall. Please bare in mind the stream was right next to me so I could see him lol. I know there are risks doing it, but we have never had an issue and I know you never know and he could just run off one day, but any dog could do that.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2015)

astro2011 said:


> I have an Alaskan Malamute who goes off leash. I know some won't agree with him going off leash, but I've never had an issue with him. He's never ran far (too lazy actually), and always comes back. Only time he's wandered off was into a stream and he got stuck :| I had to rescue him as he was tried to climb up the small waterfall. Please bare in mind the stream was right next to me so I could see him lol. I know there are risks doing it, but we have never had an issue and I know you never know and he could just run off one day, but any dog could do that.


Our malamute was reliable off leash.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

He is the laziest Malamute on earth I'm sure! That's with his thyroid tablets! I don't know any other dog that by choice sleeps around 20 hours a day lol.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

For me, I think I find it harder to believe these owners who claim their dog is terrible off lead, not to be trusted, would scale fences or whatever and yet have never had a bad experience to prove this, have never had their dog off lead and have never put the work into recall training....they just blindly believe the breed traits/stereotype and that's that.

As has been said many times before in similar conversations, you will find good and badly trained dogs in any breed. I do not attach blanket stereotypes to any one breed and believe there are exceptions to the rule. Any dog can blow a recall command, any dog can run off and lose it's sense of direction. Those are not unique to any one breed.


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## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

My German and Belgian Shepherds always had awesome recall. Only once my BSD took off after a sheep and ignored me - I was mortified. Other than that they were always great off-lead.

My RR on the other hand (a scent hound), is terrible. Even in the house he won't come to me unless I have something he wants (ie. cheese). He only goes off-lead in enclosed or extremly remote places. It's rare that I let him off.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Blitz said:


> and I would turn that round and say there are far too many owners that keep their dogs on the lead 'just in case' and reduce their quality of life. A lot of owners would far rather take a slight risk and give their dog freedom.


Oh indeed, I have to keep mine on lead `just in case` They can`t stand the sight of me so would bog off double quick given the chance, since I`ve had to have the buggers tethered to me, my quality of life has been greatly reduced!!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Sadly, I think there are too many owners of dogs with unreliable recalls who are prepared to "risk it"


Yes I agree.

Molly is generally very good, especially if we're walking with other dogs as she has to know what they're doing. Recall I taught very early on, with a trainer, using a long line and I have her first off lead experience recorded and it was a joy to see. But I have to be careful where we let her off and I know that despite trailing her to whistle, the 50% lurcher of her means she'll go after anything small and furry or deer. Beaches are the best places but I don't tend to let her off close to dunes and in woods unless well enclosed.

We went to an old walk recently and whilst she did come back to me when called, it was more delayed than I'd like as there must've been rabbits. I had the long line with me so I put her on it before any harm was done - I could read her brain trying to work out if she could scarper even with liver cake. I guess that's the benefit of having her for so long, I knew she'd sod off. Perhaps that's it - not necessarily the breed but the dog too and how well you know them.

In Norfolk about a year after we got her, her recall went to pieces when she saw seagulls on a beach. I could see her but she lost me and the cause wasn't her, it was her humans. My OH who was just 'walking her' and wasn't doing any recall work and because I'd been ill and unable to walk her for several weeks, I hadn't realised until that day on the beach just what was going on. I think my OH got a huge shock, I was very distressed. We spent the rest of the week away with the book Total Recall doing work in the enclosed garden of our cottage. To be fair when I taught Molly recall, my OH was in bed with a head injury and I should have been better with the handover to him.

I think we've done all we can in the means we have. I think she'd be better if I walked her myself all the time as I run a tighter ship than my OH and I could quote paragraphs from Total Recall but she's alright.

If had known that lurchers were so unrealible would have I not rescued Molls? I can't answer than as she brings so much happiness and joy to our lives in other ways. Rather on a long line than lost to us forever. She's worth too much to us, especially me


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

Out of my 3 terriers, my two girls are fantastic off lead, recall is constant and tbh they never really run off anyway, always within sight. 

Oscar however ........ Sheep, joggers, men with hats, random dogs and he goes deaf and is off ! We are very careful where we let him off lead (we go to very isolated places) but even so, he is not allowed off lead the whole time. 

We haven't had an incident with him now for well over a year, but I daren't risk loosing him again (he was completely out of sight for over 20 mins once in Wales and I've never been so scared).


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Two dog owners walk into a bar. One has a husky and the other has a labrador. As luck would have it the barman is an APDT accredited dog trainer. They buy drinks and engage the barman in conversation.

Barman: What training goals do you have for your dog this year ?
Husky Owner: I'd like him to come back when I call him.
Barman: Recall is very important. ( Turns to Labrador owner ) What about you ?
Labrador Owner: I'd like him to learn to drive, get a black belt in karate, graduate from medical school, write a bestselling book, win the nobel peace prize and reverse global warming.
Barman: Don't you think that's a bit ambitious ?
Labrador Owner: Well he started it.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2015)

astro2011 said:


> He is the laziest Malamute on earth I'm sure! That's with his thyroid tablets! I don't know any other dog that by choice sleeps around 20 hours a day lol.


Ours wasn't lazy at all, he stayed very active well in to old age (he lived to be 14), he just had a very uh... unorthodox upbringing with a crew of roughnecks in Alaska LOL
That he managed to stay alive was miracle enough, living with us was a cake walk  He was perfectly happy to stick around, and we just capitalized on his check-in


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

]



smokeybear said:


> There are a couple of things to remember
> d) Whilst it is POSSIBLE to train some "other" breeds for some tasks for which they were not originally designed it is not PROBABLE. It also means that you are going to take at least twice as long (assuming you are a brilliant trainer and the dog is "atypical" of its breed) and perhaps longer (with a typical specimen) that most of us have not got that long to live.
> 
> e) Genetics trump everything
> ...


Years ago I was looking for a collie pup and the vets phoned me up and said they had one in to have put down. I went straight in and saw a 4 months obviously collie cross JRT. Being soft I took her anyway and gave her to my small daughter as her own dog - which she was brilliant as, a constant companion for years. Anyway when my working sheepdog died I was needing a dog to work so thought I would try Meg. She had no interest in sheep, she was far more of a terrier in a lot of ways. So I trained her and to my surprise she became fairly good at driving and putting through gateways. Luckily we do not have massive fields and only had a small flock so the outrun was not essential as I have no idea how you would train it with a dog with no instinct. And yes, you are right, it took far longer than twice as long but it was possible. Obviously she was already trained to drop on command and had an excellent recall or it might have been a disaster.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I find this thread actually rather reassuring and very honest, mostly so far. It's good to hear from some of you that you also have to be aware of environments and limitations. I often feel like I'm the only one, especially this year on holiday where even on the streets around the town we stayed in, dogs were off lead and free to hassle mine because the owner wasn't able to call them back.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

95% of the time Kenzie is wonderful off-lead. She will occasionally ignore me if she smells some food somewhere as she is a right scavenger, but that doesn't really involve running off, and a better trainer probably could sort that out. She would run off chasing something given half a chance, so I think carefully about where I let her off. Thankfully we don't have a lot of wildlife around here. I can only recall twice in the past 5 years when she's given me a major scare, but that's enough for me to carefully assess the risk. If in doubt, she's on her flexi, which isn't a major hindrance for her as she's not really a 'runner', but I do tend to do walks where she can be off-lead.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

My biggest failure with recall was with Chloe, my 4.5 kg Tibetan Spaniel. Tibbies are know to be difficult to train because they were originally bred to work and think independently of humans, and this trait is still very strong in the breed. With a few exceptions Tibbies should always be leashed.

Despite being trained in much the same way as my Pei, who's recall was excellent Chloe's recall was absolutely zilch. The moment she realised she was off leash she was off like a bullet totally oblivious to anything and anyone and the only way of getting her to stop running away was to send my Pei after her. She was also an incurable escape artist who could scale a 3 foot fence, burrow like a rabbit and wriggle under the smallest spaces like a snake ... I've seen her with my own eyes, and as well as being leashed when out walking had to be kept on a 30 metre line in the garden!

I spent a fortune having part of my land enclosed and the day after it was finished I took both dogs for a walk round the garden. Chloe walked round inspecting the perimeter and the next thing I knew, she'd gone having quickly burrowed her way under the fence. For the rest of her life she never left the house unless she was firmly attached to a lead or a line.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I think you should never ignore breed traits. As you know I own 4 sibes, I train recall religiously whether it's in an enclosed area or on a 100ft leash but how they act in these situations is completely different to if they got off in the open.
> 
> Skyla for example is perfect at offlead, comes when called very obedient however she's got off her lead once along a beach front and she was off! I tried every trick in the book to get her back and only managed to when she stopped to pilfer someones dinner :Facepalm
> 
> ...


Unfortunately this happened to me with my first Sibe. He was wonderful off lead for me, but one day saw something in the woods when he was out with his walker and was off. They finally found his body next to the motorway. Hence, none of my current 2 are ever allowed off lead if not in an enclosed space - they are very good at recall at home (unless there's a fox in the hedge), but I know that if there was another dog, fox or squirrel whilst we were out, I wouldn't stand a hope in hell of getting them back until they were well and truly done with chasing / playing


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Katalyst said:


> This is an interesting thread.
> A matter of days ago whilst walking back home through the woods, I stopped and chatted to a lady with a small doodle of some description and the dogs had a good sniff. She was thoroughly confused as to why my friendly dog was on a lead in the woods. I explained that despite intensive and constant training, his recall is somewhat selective the second he sees anything more exciting than me and the treats in my pocket. Which can be anything. Squirrels. Children. Interesting leaves....
> She was quite funny with me about it and assured me that all I need to do is teach him to come back. According to her he is missing out *rolls eyes*.


I feel like I spend half my life having to explain to people that I'm not being cruel keeping my 2 on the lead, and that they go to doggy day care 5 days a week, where they have 5 acres to run around in for 7 hours a day, so the other 2 days that they're not allowed off, yes they're probably very frustrating for the dogs, but it's not the end of the world.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

I have to agree with whoever said the horror stories can happen with any breed. 

Of course if the dog has given you reason to not trust them off leash, that’s different, but a dog who has been reliable his whole life can still have a one-off, and that one-off can be the worst case scenario. Is that reason to never let that dog off lead? 

Breez is as velcro dog as they come, she came with a pre-instaled invisible umbilical cord attached to me and never gets further away than that invisible line. 
Bates has no compunctions about going off adventuring, but he also has a stellar recall, I can call him off a chase, and even when he is a quarter of a mile away down at the stream, I can call him and he will come. 

I am cautious about where I let them off based on how they’re behaving that day, where we are, the environment, who they’re with (dogs are just like kids, some “friends” can be bad influences ). 

Both of mine have better recall if we are away from home, they are more likely to blow me off if we are in familiar territory. 
In working situations, Bates has always been fine off leash, he has been in the ring with me with all sorts of weird situations going on and he has never blown me off, but when we’re out just walking, he’s more likely to find his own entertainment.

Piecing all this together, I can make a very educated guess about when and where it would be a safe risk to let them off. It will never be a 100% safe scenario, but nothing ever is. There is a chance they might take off, run over to hunted land, get confused for a deer, and get shot. Or corner a bear and lose, or all sorts of worst case scenarios. But that risk is not probable enough IMO to warrant restricting them to a life on leash...


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> they go to doggy day care 5 days a week, where they have 5 acres to run around in for 7 hours a day,


And see, my two would find doggy day care a living hell. Having to share space with other dogs for 7 hours a day 5 days a week, would be an absolute nightmare for my two. So for them, the risk of off-leash is far more worthwhile.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> Unfortunately this happened to me with my first Sibe. He was wonderful off lead for me, but one day saw something in the woods when he was out with his walker and was off. They finally found his body next to the motorway. Hence, none of my current 2 are ever allowed off lead if not in an enclosed space - they are very good at recall at home (unless there's a fox in the hedge), but I know that if there was another dog, fox or squirrel whilst we were out, I wouldn't stand a hope in hell of getting them back until they were well and truly done with chasing / playing


This very sadly is something that is well known to people who have long standing connections with the breed, and why every Siberian Husky breed club and welfare organisation states that they should never be let off except in a fully closed safe area. A lot of people have thought they have an exception to the rule, and then the dog suddenly out of the blue has taken off because the prey drive and running instinct has kicked in and obliterated all else in the dogs mind dogs been forever lost, maimed or worse still killed. Its just happened so many times its not worth the risk. They also will kill if the get the opportunity. One of mine was given up because she was an escape artist in her previous home and had killed a sheep. All mine Several Siberians a Malamute and a cross between the two have gone to training, one went for almost two years and was going to advanced class they never missed in the confines of the training centre, but outside their attention span and what they will do there is completely different to a training class or indoors. They will come when called when in the garden, but if they know a cat, fox or even a birds about different story everything else they have been taught training wise is second fiddle to possible prey and hunting opportunity.

Some people do let theirs off and if that's what they want to do and risk that's up to them entirely, because with some no matter what warnings are given its totally ignored anyway.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> And see, my two would find doggy day care a living hell. Having to share space with other dogs for 7 hours a day 5 days a week, would be an absolute nightmare for my two. So for them, the risk of off-leash is far more worthwhile.


Definitely. Mine are both hooligans, so I knew that doggy day care would be perfect for them. But I can imagine that for quieter, more sensitive dogs, this would be hell on earth and would wonder what on earth they had done wrong for you to punish them so


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This very sadly is something that is well known to people who have long standing connections with the breed, and why every Siberian Husky breed club and welfare organisation states that they should never be let off except in a fully closed safe area. A lot of people have thought they have an exception to the rule, and then the dog suddenly out of the blue has taken off because the prey drive and running instinct has kicked in and obliterated all else in the dogs mind dogs been forever lost, maimed or worse still killed. Its just happened so many times its not worth the risk. They also will kill if the get the opportunity. One of mine was given up because she was an escape artist in her previous home and had killed a sheep. All mine Several Siberians a Malamute and a cross between the two have gone to training, one went for almost two years and was going to advanced class they never missed in the confines of the training centre, but outside their attention span and what they will do there is completely different to a training class or indoors. They will come when called when in the garden, but if they know a cat, fox or even a birds about different story everything else they have been taught training wise is second fiddle to possible prey and hunting opportunity.
> 
> Some people do let theirs off and if that's what they want to do and risk that's up to them entirely, because with some no matter what warnings are given its totally ignored anyway.


A friend told me that she spoke to a dog psychologist about prey drive. He explained that, apparently, 80% of their brain goes into the chase, once they have identified their prey, so your shouting is, literally, going through one ear and out the other; they just can't hear you.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Definitely. Mine are both hooligans, so I knew that doggy day care would be perfect for them. But I can imagine that for quieter, more sensitive dogs, this would be hell on earth and would wonder what on earth they had done wrong for you to punish them so


Mine are neither quiet or sensitive, they're just not in to socializing with a bunch of dogs they don't know. 
Honestly, doggy day care is not great for a lot of dogs, not just sensitive ones. 7 hours without down time is not good for any dog IMO, but that's starting to get off topic to the thread...


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Mine are neither quiet or sensitive, they're just not in to socializing with a bunch of dogs they don't know.
> Honestly, doggy day care is not great for a lot of dogs, not just sensitive ones. 7 hours without down time is not good for any dog IMO, but that's starting to get off topic to the thread...


Works for some and not others. But you're right, let's not get off thread


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I 'lost' Missy in the woods once for up to 20 mins I'd guess. I had to go put the boys back in the car and go back to try and find her and as I couldn't enter the s of ( private property ) I had to stand on the edge calling her. She did eventually return but from a completely different direction to where I'd last seen her and close to a road! 

See, it happens to all dogs. Hence why I will never understand this idea that Huskies in particular are unique and can never be trusted. You have to ask yourself how any dog owner musters up the courage to let any dog off lead really, because there is risk in doing so in many ways ( unless you're in a secure environment )


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This very sadly is something that is well known to people who have long standing connections with the breed, and why every Siberian Husky breed club and welfare organisation states that they should never be let off except in a fully closed safe area. A lot of people have thought they have an exception to the rule, and then the dog suddenly out of the blue has taken off because the prey drive and running instinct has kicked in and obliterated all else in the dogs mind dogs been forever lost, maimed or worse still killed. Its just happened so many times its not worth the risk. They also will kill if the get the opportunity. One of mine was given up because she was an escape artist in her previous home and had killed a sheep. All mine Several Siberians a Malamute and a cross between the two have gone to training, one went for almost two years and was going to advanced class they never missed in the confines of the training centre, but outside their attention span and what they will do there is completely different to a training class or indoors. They will come when called when in the garden, but if they know a cat, fox or even a birds about different story everything else they have been taught training wise is second fiddle to possible prey and hunting opportunity.
> 
> Some people do let theirs off and if that's what they want to do and risk that's up to them entirely, because with some no matter what warnings are given its totally ignored anyway.


As has been said this can happen with any dog of any breed however good they are. I see keeping a dog on the lead if it has no recall but one that has a good recall all its life why would you keep it on the lead just in case it got distracted one day. Do people that keep their dogs on the lead keep their children under close supervision as well.
In a lot of situations I do have to keep one of my dogs on the lead as she would not be safe but I would not keep her on the lead all the time.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I don't believe that any dog has 100% reliable recall 100% of the time. I do let Lucky offlead where it's safe such as the beach or big open fields but I couldn't say that she would 100% recall to me regardless of the situation. This is why she is only offlead where I know it is safe. 
She has never ran off or failed to come back to me when called in the almost 6 years I have had her, yes, she has taken her time and sauntered along but still recalled to me. 
I have noticed squirrels in the distance whilst Lucky has been offlead and she's been totally oblivious to them. If she did see them she would probably attempt to chase but she is only ever offlead in safe places anyway so it wouldn't be too much of an issue.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> I find this thread actually rather reassuring and very honest, mostly so far. It's good to hear from some of you that you also have to be aware of environments and limitations. I often feel like I'm the only one, especially this year on holiday where even on the streets around the town we stayed in, dogs were off lead and free to hassle mine because the owner wasn't able to call them back.


I do also think it depends on what the dog does when it doesn't recall. If they run around an area that is relatively safe, such as a sports field, some owners feel ok to let the dog wear itself out, irrespective of who or what it pesters, in the likelihood they will probably manage to grab it by the time they want to go home.

They probably don't have the same motivation or fear as an owner of a dog that sprints off at break neck speed, out of sight, covering great distances, crashing through or into obstacles or running straight onto a road.

I think I would be more inclined to trust Jack off lead if he didn't do the latter - because, ultimately, I couldn't forgive myself if he got badly injured or killed, or caused a nasty accident such as a car crash, for instance.

Even out in the middle of nowhere, a pretty long distance from any roads, he still managed to cover enough ground to get to a (fortunately, quiet) road - where he was caught by a passing driver and they held on to him, rang my mobile number on his collar and waited for me to catch him up - quite a long way away. Had he not been caught at the point, and turned left and kept running he would have been on a VERY busy road! 

I'm pretty sure though, that even if he were inclined to just run around in a safe area, evading capture for a while, I would not be the type of owner to allow him to be a pest to other people and their dogs. As we know, not everyone else thinks the same 

Bottom line I guess, is my dog, my judgement, my decision - he seems happy enough!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Blitz said:


> As has been said this can happen with any dog of any breed however good they are. I see keeping a dog on the lead if it has no recall but one that has a good recall all its life why would you keep it on the lead just in case it got distracted one day. Do people that keep their dogs on the lead keep their children under close supervision as well.
> In a lot of situations I do have to keep one of my dogs on the lead as she would not be safe but I would not keep her on the lead all the time.


Put it this way the odds that it will happen with a Siberian far outweighs the likelihood it wont recall and run off I'm talking here. If you knew the breed and watch their body language and behaviour when out in the open with possibility of prey and the opportunity to hunt around they are totally oblivious to not much else in fact they are deaf to commands totally the instant something appears bird, cat, squirrel anything happens.
Most in fact because of this are not good at recall and are not reliable anyway in the first place. Don't you think if they could be made to have a great recall and be 100% everytime it would have been achieved by now. Not just the odd exception to the rule you may occasionally get but the Majority of the breed. Your not talking about a dog that was selectively bred to herd or do all the other things some dogs were selectively bred to do by man and work closely with man and be more biddable, your talking about a breed that dates back several thousand years and man didn't have a right lot of imput in in the way of selective breeding. What you forget too is that the distances and speed they can run for is miles upon Miles, in the UK anyway, if one does take off then the likely hood that its going to eventually run into roads or trouble in a very short space of time means that the odds are stacked against it, add to that a prey drive that can be all consuming what do you think will happen. Gun dogs for example can be taught to retrieve dead birds they have been selectively bred to do it and be south mouthed. A husky if it may give up other things wont give up a dead bird or squirrel they will eat it rather then let you have it and will ensure if loose they will keep out your way to make sure you cant get it in the first place. Don't matter how may leaves and drops they may do with toys and other things, prey and the hunt comes above all else with the majority, even what seems to the the docile most loving people orientated ones, in fact they can be the worst.

Like I said some people just don't and will never get it, all this and more has been explained before and examples given and some will always fall on s


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm sure I've told this story before, so my apologies; however, it's entirely relevant. (It is also distressing, so do avoid if it might trigger/overly upset you.)

I used to have (with my ex-husband) a border collie. For reasons which were nothing to do with me, he was never walked on a lead, wherever we were (I can't say more on a public forum - please just understand that it wasn't my decision). We'd had Whisky since he was 10 months old (via a rescue) and he was very calm for a BC and, much more typically, very easy to train (just as well, as he was my first dog, and all the training was left to me!). Whisky was utterly reliable. He never went out of sight and had perfect recall. Whatever he was doing, one word (or signal - I taught him sign language to keep his brain engaged) from me and he was back at my side.

Until..........

One night, when Whisky was ten, I was walking him up our quiet road to an area at the top which was a tree'd space, with rough grassland. We did this every night. On the other side of this space was an A road which tended to be busy only during the day. On this particularly night there was a fox in the undergrowth. Whisky saw it before I did, gave chase, and ran into the A road, where he was hit by a car with such force that he was thrown into the air and onto the side of the road. Strangely, his body had not a single mark on it, but he was deeply unconscious. The emergency vet was a twenty minute drive away. The vet was lovely - he literally ran out of the surgery, heaved Whisky into his arms and ran him to the table. He established that Whisky's internal injuries were such that he would not survive. Just as the vet was about to euthanise him, Whisky had a massive internal haemorrhage and died.

The reason for telling this ghastly story (it took me, quite literally, years and years to get over it) is because it proves that, no matter how reliable a dog seems, one can never be 100% sure. Ten years of perfect behaviour and then..... And nowadays there are all the other worries, like aggression from other dogs (or owners for that matter!), and idiots who put poison down, and dogs picking up rotten stuff which ends in a trip to the vet, and occasional reports of dog theft. To be honest, I'm not sure I will ever feel safe to let a dog off-lead again....

On a more cheerful note, my next dog will be a rescue staffie (male) - what's their recall like please?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Put it this way the odds that it will happen with a Siberian far outweighs the likelihood it wont recall I'm talking here. If you knew the breed and watch their body language and behaviour when out in the open and with possibility of prey around they are totally oblivious to not much else in fact they are deaf to commands totally the instant something else happens.
> Most in fact because of this are not good at recall and are not reliable anyway. Don't you think if they could be made to have a great recall and be 100% it would have been achieved by now. Not just the odd exception to the rule you may occasionally get but the Majority of the breed. Your not talking about a dog that was selectively bred to herd or do all the other things some dogs were selectively bred to do by man and work closely with man and be more biddable, your talking about a breed that dates back several thousand years and man didn't have a right lot of imput in in the way of selective breeding. What you forget too is that the distances and speed they can run for is miles upon Miles, in the UK anyway, if one does take off then the likely hood that its going to eventually run into roads or trouble in a very short space of time means that the odds are stacked against it, add to that a prey drive that can be all consuming what do you think will happen. Gun dogs for example can be taught to retrieve dead birds they have been selectively bred to do it and be south mouthed. A husky if it may give up other things wont give up a dead bird or squirrel they will eat it rather then let you have it and will ensure if loose they will keep out your way to make sure you cant get it in the first place. Don't matter how may leaves and drops they may do with toys and other things, prey and the hunt comes above all else with the majority, even what seems to the the docile most loving people orientated ones, in fact they can be the worst.
> 
> Like I said some people just don't and will never get it, all this and more has been explained before and examples given and some will always fall on s


In all honesty, as Sibes are a breed I'd consider one day when the small furries have all passed away, I don't think I would ever take the risk of letting them offlead unless in a 100% secure area, no matter how great they appear to be for recall 99% of the time.

It's that 1% & the chance of that being a bunk off into the distance rather than just being a bit of an arse to recall, that means I'd not be prepared to take the risk.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Every time any of us let our dogs off lead we are risking them blowing a recall, chasing something and potentially being killed or injured as a result no matter what the breed is. However, it's down to the individual to make an assessment of the environment, their dogs behaviour and their own limitations as an owner.

I have dogs who will chase and kill wildlife. Just the other day I was screaming like a fishwife because they had flushed out an injured pheasant and proceeded to chase it about trying to catch it, and then one of them bogged off through a fence and into somebody's garden. I was stuck in the middle of a very boggy area of a field and could do very little other than try and use my voice to it's fullest effect. Incidents like these are rare however so I continue to allow my dogs off lead but I watch their body language, assess constantly what is or may be around us and if it's too risky or the dogs are throwing me a deaf ear then they go on a lead. The one who is most likely to ignore me and get into trouble is a border collie, not your typical breed for bothering wildlife or ignoring commands. The one who does actually pay attention and will listen to whistle and voice commands is my wirehaired pointer, again, a breed more synonymous with disappearing over the horizon (thats not to say he's perfect, far from it, but can be trusted well). I am under no illusion however that HPR's in general are as reliable, I think I have the exception to the rule.

I am a great lover of scent hounds but would be very reluctant to own one due to their supposed lack of reliability off lead and general difficulty to train. I think breed traits are something that need to be taken serious note of but there are always going to be exceptions in every breed.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> In all honesty, as Sibes are a breed I'd consider one day when the small furries have all passed away, I don't think I would ever take the risk of letting them offlead unless in a 100% secure area, no matter how great they appear to be for recall 99% of the time.
> 
> It's that 1% & the chance of that being a bunk off into the distance rather than just being a bit of an arse to recall, that means I'd not be prepared to take the risk.


All dogs run the risk of legging it off into the distance though. No dog has 100% recall or can be 100% trusted off lead IMHO, but it's one of those things you weigh up the pros/cons for, and for most people the continued experience of allowing your dog off lead with 'good' recall most of the time and having positive experiences, builds confidence up for the next time. If I'd never allowed any of mine off lead, quite rightly I'd be a nervous wreck at the prospect of doing so now as adults and damn right they'd leg it after all the amazing smells & sights, that would then reinforce my belief they are not to be trusted off lead


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I do think its sad that these threads nearly always end up with good responsible owners criticizing the choices made by other good responsible owners  Can't we just accept that we all know our own dogs best and also weigh up the types of areas we have available to walk them in before making the decisions we do. I know with Arthur if we weren't lucky enough to have access to huge forests we wouldn't be able to take the same risks as we do now. We spend a great deal of time in Dartmoor and I've yet to find a suitable safe area there to let him off lead so he never has been.

This is one of our favourite walks - he can and does at times go as far from us as the trees at the top that curve round (not the horizon just below). Obviously we prefer him to be closer and 9 times out of 10 we can direct him back with the whistle or get him to "wait" which he does really well - unless he is after pheasant or partridge. Without access to this I'm afraid he would have to stay on his lead permanently and make do with long line work.


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## LoopyL (Jun 16, 2015)

I'm absolutely terrified of any of my 3 lurchers getting run over so I take them to places well away from roads/railways(sheep) where they can go offlead
as safely as is possible. My girls have (so far) always come back when called but my collie x lurcher boy used to be hard work when younger as he is much more independant & has higher prey drive than the other 2. As a result I'd let him chase for longer than the girls & call him when I judged he would listen (normally after a field & a half in clear sight), praise him highly & give him a bit of sausage on his return. If he seemed hesitant I'd tell the girls (loudly) what good dogs they were & give them sausage which gave him an incentive to return a bit faster! I've had one or two heartstopping moments over the 10 years I've had him when he went 'off piste' & ventured close to a road - but those moments generally happened when it was getting dark so we don't go out in the gloaming anymore as he goes into full hunting mode & due to his colouring (badgery) is almost invisible. I do therefore think it depends a lot on the individual dog not just the breed/type altho obviously breed is a major factor. 

I literally cringe any time I see a dog being walked offlead beside a road & don't understand why anyone would risk it? Even dogs with (apparently) 100% recall can get spooked by a backfire/whatever, run into road & get killed.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> All dogs run the risk of legging it off into the distance though. No dog has 100% recall or can be 100% trusted off lead IMHO, but it's one of those things you weigh up the pros/cons for, and for most people the continued experience of allowing your dog off lead with 'good' recall most of the time and having positive experiences, builds confidence up for the next time. If I'd never allowed any of mine off lead, quite rightly I'd be a nervous wreck at the prospect of doing so now as adults and damn right they'd leg it after all the amazing smells & sights, that would then reinforce my belief they are not to be trusted off lead


That's what I've done with all of mine.

Rogue can be an arse (she enjoys chasing, but not catching, wildlife) so she's onlead unless we're in specific areas such as the beach, Gypsy will bolt at things she perceives as scary so is leashed at all times when out & about.

Bob has never given me reason to think he'd not recall, he's been offlead around cyclists, wildlife, allsorts, he's just not interested in doing anything apart from bimbling along or playing fetch. The only time he even looks remotely interested in anything outside a 6ft range of us is if someone's playing football


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Both Georgina and Gwylim have good recall but the only time they're off leash is in their own garden or when we're in the middle of a field where I can see for miles around me. Call me cautious or even chicken by not letting them loose in other situations, but whilst I trust them to do what I ask most of the time, I don't trust them implicitly all the time, and would never forgive myself if one of them was injured or caused and accident. As far as my dogs are concerned I'm quite certain they don't feel they're being deprived of having fun or freedom by being walked on a lead. And as for me, I'm much happier and far more relaxed walking them on their leads without having to worry or anticipate what they might or might not do when off leash.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I do think its sad that these threads nearly always end up with good responsible owners criticizing the choices made by other good responsible owners  Can't we just accept that we all know our own dogs best and also weigh up the types of areas we have available to walk them in before making the decisions we do. I know with Arthur if we weren't lucky enough to have access to huge forests we wouldn't be able to take the same risks as we do now. We spend a great deal of time in Dartmoor and I've yet to find a suitable safe area there to let him off lead so he never has been.
> 
> This is one of our favourite walks - he can and does at times go as far from us as the trees at the top that curve round (not the horizon just below). Obviously we prefer him to be closer and 9 times out of 10 we can direct him back with the whistle or get him to "wait" which he does really well - unless he is after pheasant or partridge. Without access to this I'm afraid he would have to stay on his lead permanently and make do with long line work.


Oh my, that looks so perfect! I would love to be able to take mine somewhere like this. I haven't seen either of them in full flight, and I really would love to, just to see the absolute joy on their faces


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I don't go by breed as to whether I'd let a dog offlead, I treat breed traits as this dog is more likely to do x than that dog rather than will do x and judge by the dog.

Brock has good recall, in that I know he'll recall from chasing birds or sheep on the other side of a fence, so pretty distracting distractions, lol.

I keep him onlead on most walks though because of his dog aggression, I could find his recall is good enough to withstand a dog in the distance, but I'm not willing to test it because the consequences if it doesn't are just too much.

I walk an Akita sometimes, a breed that lots of people keep onlead...she recalls perfectly, she's dog friendly, people friendly and while she will chase small furries, she can't be bothered after the initial - ooh something moved, she literally chases for about 6 feet and decides it's going too fast, lol.

In fact mostly she stays within about 6 feet of me anyway because I have the primula and she knows it. (Her owner walks with me and Brock other times, the dog is now in the habit of appearing beside me whenever one of Brock's triggers goes past as there may be spare primula then too, rofl)

I can't see any reason to keep her onlead.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I do think its sad that these threads nearly always end up with good responsible owners criticizing the choices made by other good responsible owners  Can't we just accept that we all know our own dogs best and also weigh up the types of areas we have available to walk them in before making the decisions we do. I know with Arthur if we weren't lucky enough to have access to huge forests we wouldn't be able to take the same risks as we do now. We spend a great deal of time in Dartmoor and I've yet to find a suitable safe area there to let him off lead so he never has been.
> 
> This is one of our favourite walks - he can and does at times go as far from us as the trees at the top that curve round (not the horizon just below). Obviously we prefer him to be closer and 9 times out of 10 we can direct him back with the whistle or get him to "wait" which he does really well - unless he is after pheasant or partridge. Without access to this I'm afraid he would have to stay on his lead permanently and make do with long line work.


No one is criticising others choices, just not believing that northern breeds should have a blanket no lead rule just because they 'might' run off once in their lifetime. If an individual is almost sure to run off then of course it should be on the lead.

I love your walk in the photo. Interestingly I could not let one of mine off there as she runs so fast and hard she would be out of hearing and out of sight in the trees within seconds. If she is in a more open area I can tell her to wait when she gets too far ahead.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> A friend told me that she spoke to a dog psychologist about prey drive. He explained that, apparently, 80% of their brain goes into the chase, once they have identified their prey, so your shouting is, literally, going through one ear and out the other; they just can't hear you.


Ears are off when the nose is on generally speaking, but the point is with (insert relevant breed) it is not the prey drive per se, I have two dogs both of which have incredibly high prey drives that itself is not an issue. Prey drive is not unique to Huskies etc The issue is that prey drive COMBINED with a breed that is not handler dependant/biddable and which has been bred to run is a no win issue.

When I go to a house to assess a dog and I ask "what will your dog do if you let it in" and the reply is "it will bite you" you know what? I believe them.

The same is true of those breeds which come under the "not safe to have off the lead " rule. I believe those enthusiasts.

Besides nobody can want to run all the time with a dog attached to them for no reason surely?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> All dogs run the risk of legging it off into the distance though. No dog has 100% recall or can be 100% trusted off lead IMHO, but it's one of those things you weigh up the pros/cons for, and for most people the continued experience of allowing your dog off lead with 'good' recall most of the time and having positive experiences, builds confidence up for the next time. If I'd never allowed any of mine off lead, quite rightly I'd be a nervous wreck at the prospect of doing so now as adults and damn right they'd leg it after all the amazing smells & sights, that would then reinforce my belief they are not to be trusted off lead


There is a great deal of difference between "possiblity" and "probability".

It is possible that my GSD or my BSD would bog off into the wild blue yonder.

Is it not however, probable.

It was both possible and probable that my HPRs would bog off into the wild blue yonder and although they were rarely on the lead I was a lot more vigilant re deer etc.

Still not in the class of some breeds which, although there are the exceptions to the rule, they are just that, exceptions. Which is why you do not get certain breeds fulfilling certain tasks.

I am sure it is possible to get round Aintree on a donkey, but not probable...................


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I 'lost' Missy in the woods once for up to 20 mins I'd guess. I had to go put the boys back in the car and go back to try and find her and as I couldn't enter the s of ( private property ) I had to stand on the edge calling her. She did eventually return but from a completely different direction to where I'd last seen her and close to a road!
> 
> See, it happens to all dogs. Hence why I will never understand this idea that Huskies in particular are unique and can never be trusted. You have to ask yourself how any dog owner musters up the courage to let any dog off lead really, because there is risk in doing so in many ways ( unless you're in a secure environment )


Your view as mentioned by another poster is not uncommon, that is because you do not have experience with this breed on a day in day out basis.

It is similar to how people have lots of misunderstandings about a lot of issues, dog related or not, you do not understand the risk rating which is based on likelihood of something happening and the severity of the outcome.

You lost a dog of a particular breed for 20 minutes in a relatively enclosed area.

After 20 minutes most huskies or similar could be in another county.


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## AceOfSpades113 (Dec 1, 2015)

I do think there are certain things you can teach a dog to at least try and make it safer, but there is no guarantees. One of the first things after recall I began working on with my youngest is roads and why not to cross them. After he got out once and ran infront of a car which missed him by nothing it became very important, and eventually he had learnt that at every curb/apparent road he comes to, he has to stop and wait for me, or I can say 'cross over' and he knows he can go to the otherside. Three years on and this doesn't even always work, there has been times he has crossed on his own mind. Just want to stress I am not talking about main roads, its small barely used roads. He is otherwise on lead across any main ones/back roads and the likes, just not these baby ones since they interrupt most of our walks.
It really depends on the dog personally, breed can have something to do with it but it depends on the place and what could be the distraction, and of course if the dog is in heat/ left entire... Every little feature could change it, but the way I see it, if your not 100% sure I would lead the dog until back to safety.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Your view as mentioned by another poster is not uncommon, that is because you do not have experience with this breed on a day in day out basis.
> 
> It is similar to how people have lots of misunderstandings about a lot of issues, dog related or not, you do not understand the risk rating which is based on likelihood of something happening and the severity of the outcome.
> 
> ...


I don't dispute Huskies are known for having notoriously poor recall/having high prey drive etc. However, I think it's the blanket generalisation of the whole breed that I find more unbelievable. Besides which, in previous conversations on this subject, you yourself have said Huskies are not unique in their training requirements and that all are individuals. I would find the thread itself as more was said, but I think it's been closed and can't be found.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I don't dispute Huskies are known for having notoriously poor recall/having high prey drive etc. However, I think it's the blanket generalisation of the whole breed that I find more unbelievable. Besides which, in previous conversations on this subject, you yourself have said Huskies are not unique in their training requirements and that all are individuals. I would find the thread itself as more was said, but I think it's been closed and can't be found.


The fact they are not unique in their trarining requirements does not contradict any other observation I have made on this thread.

Dogs of ALL breeds require training to do the same things.

The outcome however will not be the same.

I could train every day for two years and not become even make an adequate runner let alone and Olympian.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> No one is criticising others choices, just not believing that northern breeds should have a blanket no lead rule just because they 'might' run off once in their lifetime. If an individual is almost sure to run off then of course it should be on the lead.
> 
> I love your walk in the photo. Interestingly I could not let one of mine off there as she runs so fast and hard she would be out of hearing and out of sight in the trees within seconds. If she is in a more open area I can tell her to wait when she gets too far ahead.


I guess if you have owned several of a particular breed and have a great deal of experience of them combined with the experience of other owners of the breed you know then you may make a blanket decision that the particular breed is not safe off lead and therefore decide not to risk it. I wouldn't knock anyone for making that decision.

The walk in my photo is great and its interesting you say you wouldn't left one of yours off lead there as she would be out of sight in the trees within seconds - that is exactly what Arthur does - 0 - 60 in seconds covering a vast distance. When we first got him and let him off the lead (after several weeks of our usual recall whistle training around the house and garden) we got the shock of our lives as he put his head down and went full throttle, gone from view in seconds and no response to the whistle. We didn't understand that his run out is a couple of hundred yards before he turns and works the ground back towards us. Not uncommon for his breed and entirely different to the GSPs we have been used to.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I guess the argument here could be that one day that dog will break his recall and be gone which could very well be true. But for balance it's nice to see that individuals can be off lead successfully.

Same could be said for other prey driven breeds, Greyhounds and other sighthounds. I've known individuals within the breed who absolutely can't be off lead through their chase instinct, and others who happily walk along with their owners. Most have something 'middle of the road' so to speak, my Ty included.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I knew about the terrier breed traits before we got Muttly, as I was reading up. However, I wasn't going to close the book on off lead, I just understood that it may mean it will take a lot of training.
After a year, he only really goes offlead on the beach, where it's really open and I can see him and what else is around. Or if we go to suitable open fields.

Normal day to day, he is on his Flexi. Because our weekday walking place has roads all around and lots of deer and rabbits. He's very good with rabbits now, but not deer. 
We are also surrounded here by woods, which are then surrounded by roads. So I just think wildlife + nearby roads = Not a risk I'm willing to take with him.

I do like to see him offlead, yes. His flat out run, is just amazing! so fast! But I won;t take silly risks with him, no.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> I don't dispute Huskies are known for having notoriously poor recall/having high prey drive etc. However, I think it's the blanket generalisation of the whole breed that I find more unbelievable. Besides which, in previous conversations on this subject, you yourself have said Huskies are not unique in their training requirements and that all are individuals. I would find the thread itself as more was said, but I think it's been closed and can't be found.


Could it be that its not so much a "blanket" generalisation more fact because the majority of the breed as a whole wont come back because of its natural instinct and prey drive far outweighs anything that you can teach it in a training class in a majority of cases. Even Ian Dunbar admits that northern breeds well Huskies and Malamutes, are not the same as other dogs training wise and wont do anything they cant see the point of.

Just because one knob on a video has let his husky off and it appears to be following him and coming back what for a whole minute or two of footage doesn't mean it always will, in fact I couldn't see any evidence of any other wildlife in the video either had there been it may have been a different story when it went from zero distractions to things to hunt. Many people have thought they have a individual in the past too and come unstuck. People often think when they have a pup and young husky that its the exception to the rule, until its old enough for the prey drive to kick in and other instincts and then thats a different story. Have you ever considered that every breed club and breed welfare organisation says don't let huskies off lead because XYZ might be saying it because it applies to the Siberian Huskie as a breed and the majority of that breed too and not just because they decided to dream up some breed generalisation to come up with one day. As it tends to be the majority of the breed videos like that could actually be putting dogs at risk because people will believe me look at one video and think you can let them all off. I know someone who when interviewing a prospective rescue owner who already had a husky who said they let theirs off and was asked did you not research and read up about the breed be told
oh yes we did but we kept reading until we found one that said you could.

What you forget too is that Long standing husky owners or a fair few of them have/ have had other breeds in their lives as well, some other northern breeds and some totally different breeds, Ive grown up with and handled Dobermanns, weimeraners and yorkshire terriers and have let them off lead in confidence but I was sure of recall, and cant say that I would trust Huskies and Malamutes in the same way, so some of us have personal experience of other breeds so not just Husky blind and have something to compare them with and know from the comparison they are different in trainability and reliability. On the other hand can people who haven't had and lived with Huskies or malamutes or trained and walked them accurately say they are not different to their breeds or will do all the same things their dogs will.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tabulahrasa said:


> I don't go by breed as to whether I'd let a dog offlead, I treat breed traits as this dog is more likely to do x than that dog rather than will do x and judge by the dog.
> 
> Brock has good recall, in that I know he'll recall from chasing birds or sheep on the other side of a fence, so pretty distracting distractions, lol.
> 
> ...


Our female akita is exactly the same, she is very reliable off lead and would chase about 5 strides then realise its not worth the effort. Its usually crows on the field that annoy her most.
On the other hand i have a male akita that is not trusted offlead at all as he develops acute deafness 
You cant make blanket assumptions regarding certain breeds their will always be exception to the rules.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When I walk Rosie around the streets or along the towpath, she's focused on me. Everything I ask her to do, she does first time and watches me for the next command. Last week, our Staffy took off after another dog, with my Son in hot pursuit. Rosie was told "wait" and made no attempt at all to go. I could describe her as very reliable in those circumstances.

When I take her to the wood, from the second we go in, she's looking upwards, backwards and all around her for squirrels. Her ears are up and fixed there and she adopts a slightly fanatical air. If I attempt to recall her, she doesn't respond at all. No tasty treat or squeaky toy would even register with her. I used to believe she was ignoring me, but a couple of times, when she's been like this, I've gone up and touched her and she jumps and looks shocked. I don't believe now she's 'blocking out' my commands, she's so focused on looking for squirrels that she just does not hear. Although she's on a long line in the wood, even tightening the line and attempting to pull her back doesn't seem to register.

If she sees a squirrel, she goes. Flat out. No command or toy will get her attention and I'm sure I could be waving a leg of lamb round in front of her and she wouldn't care. If a squirrel were to bolt through the hedge and onto the road, (and they do, I've seen them), Rosie would go after it.

My training line is fifty foot long. When I do have Rosie offlead, I would never allow her to get fifty feet away from me, so I don't believe having to spend time on the line, for her safety and that of others, is spoiling her quality of life.

Getting squashed on the road would undoubtedly impact on her quality of life.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Could it be that its not so much a "blanket" generalisation more fact because the majority of the breed as a whole wont come back because of its natural instinct and prey drive far outweighs anything that you can teach it in a training class in a majority of cases. Even Ian Dunbar admits that northern breeds well Huskies and Malamutes, are not the same as other dogs training wise and wont do anything they cant see the point of.
> 
> Just because one knob on a video has let his husky off and it appears to be following him and coming back what for a whole minute or two of footage doesn't mean it always will, in fact I couldn't see any evidence of any other wildlife in the video either had there been it may have been a different story when it went from zero distractions to things to hunt. Many people have thought they have a individual in the past too and come unstuck. People often think when they have a pup and young husky that its the exception to the rule, until its old enough for the prey drive to kick in and other instincts and then thats a different story. Have you ever considered that every breed club and breed welfare organisation says don't let huskies off lead because XYZ might be saying it because it applies to the Siberian Huskie as a breed and the majority of that breed too and not just because they decided to dream up some breed generalisation to come up with one day. As it tends to be the majority of the breed videos like that could actually be putting dogs at risk because people will believe me look at one video and think you can let them all off. I know someone who when interviewing a prospective rescue owner who already had a husky who said they let theirs off and was asked did you not research and read up about the breed be told
> oh yes we did but we kept reading until we found one that said you could.
> ...


It's that exact attitude I find ludicrous to be honest. Because someone should have a Husky off lead, he's a knob? Really? Could it be that actually he has successfully trained his dog off lead and has the same level of confidence any one of us has in the same situation. The area looked to be open and whilst no wildlife was visible, the lack of it is not somehow proof the dog will bigger off at the first opportunity. Could that dog break his recall and never be seen again? Sure. So could any one of mine. Long and short of it how I view it is that some of us are happy to take sensible risks, others not so much. There is no wrong or right way, but I do feel Husky owners in particular claim there is only one right way and are very harsh on anyone stepping out of the 'rules'. Kind of the same view on free roaming cats, but that's a whole other topic!

Anyway, I'm done, I've said my piece, made my point and will never be able to have a sensible discussion on this subject as past topics prove.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I guess if you have owned several of a particular breed and have a great deal of experience of them combined with the experience of other owners of the breed you know then you may make a blanket decision that the particular breed is not safe off lead and therefore decide not to risk it. I wouldn't knock anyone for making that decision.
> 
> The walk in my photo is great and its interesting you say you wouldn't left one of yours off lead there as she would be out of sight in the trees within seconds - that is exactly what Arthur does - 0 - 60 in seconds covering a vast distance. When we first got him and let him off the lead (after several weeks of our usual recall whistle training around the house and garden) we got the shock of our lives as he put his head down and went full throttle, gone from view in seconds and no response to the whistle. We didn't understand that his run out is a couple of hundred yards before he turns and works the ground back towards us. Not uncommon for his breed and entirely different to the GSPs we have been used to.


I wish poodles would work back to their owners. My standards once took off from almost at my feet just outside the house and within moments were several fields away. I got in the car and drove round the road to try and keep an eye on them and they did not stop till they hit the shore a mile away, they then turned and hunted across fields. I could not get to them and had to just keep them in view till they eventually came home - very scary. A friend has 3 miniatures and they will very rarely disappear hunting and usually go home rather than look for her on the walk. I saw an advert for a standard poodle needing a home because it chased deer and had killed one. I am sure owners of a lot of breeds have similar stories so if northern breeds need a blanket on lead rule maybe all dogs do.



Muttly said:


> I knew about the terrier breed traits before we got Muttly, as I was reading up. However, I wasn't going to close the book on off lead, I just understood that it may mean it will take a lot of training.
> After a year, he only really goes offlead on the beach, where it's really open and I can see him and what else is around. Or if we go to suitable open fields.
> 
> Normal day to day, he is on his Flexi. Because our weekday walking place has roads all around and lots of deer and rabbits. He's very good with rabbits now, but not deer.
> ...


Muttly, JRTs are very commonly on farms and owned by horse people. Never seen one on the lead. They all seem very handler orientated. On the other hand a lot of pet ones seem the opposite so maybe if you keep a JRT fully occupied doing what it was bred to do then it becomes a very different dog.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> It's that exact attitude I find ludicrous to be honest. Because someone should have a Husky off lead, he's a knob? Really? Could it be that actually he has successfully trained his dog off lead and has the same level of confidence any one of us has in the same situation. The area looked to be open and whilst no wildlife was visible, the lack of it is not somehow proof the dog will bigger off at the first opportunity. Could that dog break his recall and never be seen again? Sure. So could any one of mine. Long and short of it how I view it is that some of us are happy to take sensible risks, others not so much. There is no wrong or right way, but I do feel Husky owners in particular claim there is only one right way and are very harsh on anyone stepping out of the 'rules'. Kind of the same view on free roaming cats, but that's a whole other topic!
> 
> Anyway, I'm done, I've said my piece, made my point and will never be able to have a sensible discussion on this subject as past topics prove.


And that's the typical response I expected someone to come up with too. People like myself and other Husky owners can give 50 different reasons and examples why in a perfectly sensible and patient fashion Why they shouldn't be let off a lead, ie the probability and risks are too high speaking as a whole about the breed, then along comes someone who never having had the breed and lived with them still has to "prove" different and finds one video to try to diss everything they have said, no comments or questions or discussion on the facts given for the reasons why. Out of all the examples I have given and reasons, the only one you comment on is that I happened to call the bloke a Knob, which is what I expected you would pick up on. Would love to know what experience the guy has in the breed I'm guessing probably minimal and like others thinks he has the exception to the rule.

Your quote:
I don't dispute Huskies are known for having notoriously poor recall/having high prey drive etc. However, I think it's the blanket generalisation of the whole breed that I find more unbelievable.

I guess the argument here could be that one day that dog will break his recall and be gone which could very well be true. But for balance it's nice to see that individuals can be off lead successfully.

Because you wont believe it or accept it I suppose that makes it right and everyone else is wrong there are plenty of people much more experienced then I in the breed who will tell you same and give a load more examples of whats happened and not just the odd story here and there either.

Odd too that certain members can say a lot more then that on this forum and on a regular basis that's OK, I call one random bloke a knob because I believe that he has posted something that could give the wrong impression and be detrimental and dangerous to a breed I love and that's "ludicrous" If you wont take examples and information why they shouldn't be let off seriously then maybe that's whats needed to get the message across and get a reaction.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

I actually love these threads because they really get you thinking about our dogs, their traits, our choices, and isn't that what it's all about? Learning, reflecting, reassessing, confirming... It's all good 



simplysardonic said:


> Gypsy will bolt at things she perceives as scary so is leashed at all times when out & about.


I'm so glad you brought this up, there are those dogs who do bolt when frightened, sighthounds are notorious for this, and it's absolutely tragic, because the dog is terrified and in a panic and won't listen to 'reason' often even ignoring their own owner even if that owner represents safety. 
I think I would be more worried about a fear bolter than a dog who's ears temporarily turn off because the nose took over. 
We sometimes dog sit a friend's rhodesian who can be very sighthound-like in some ways. She has good recall, but until she showed me that she would seek me out or OH out when worried, we did not let her off lead with us. As it turns out, she was also glued to Bates most of the time, so I could call him and get a bonus rhodesian 



smokeybear said:


> Prey drive is not unique to Huskies etc The issue is that prey drive COMBINED with a breed that is not handler dependant/biddable and which has been bred to run is a no win issue.


Yup... I have a mutt dog with serious prey drive, but he's also seriously biddable, and we have been able to use his prey drive to build in a really good recall, to the point that he will recall off a chase. Or I should say, he will recall if he is the only one chasing, if he has the dane helping him chase, his recall plummets. So that is something I keep in mind too. Both dogs chasing I have less of a chance of getting them back than if it's only one dog chasing. This dog and our old dane were particularly bad about teaming up so they were rarely loose together. But alone, each is/was fine.

But anyway, my whole point there is that what causes poor recall in any individual dog is most likely going to be more than just one factor. And knowing those factors and how they work together can help you make more educated decisions about letting the dogs off.

Take sled dogs for example, notoriously bad off leash, but put them next to a team of running dogs and even out of the harness, a sled dog will will stay with the team. So that would be a situation where a northern breed might do just fine off leash. Granted, not one most owners would encounter, but mushers let their old dogs run loose with the team and don't lose them. It's all about knowing your dog and what his/her *probable* behavior will be.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Take sled dogs for example, notoriously bad off leash, but put them next to a team of running dogs and even out of the harness, a sled dog will will stay with the team. So that would be a situation where a northern breed might do just fine off leash. Granted, not one most owners would encounter, but mushers let their old dogs run loose with the team and don't lose them. It's all about knowing your dog and what his/her *probable* behavior will be.


Most of the argument for huskies has already been given. Just to add, I think the area/part of the world you're in makes a big difference. Here a lot of our walks have sheep near by so I would never be able to let mine off if I wanted. However in Sweden there was the road outside the house but behind, the forest stretched for 30 miles. Obviously a lot less risky out there. I think seeing their human is a lot more novel too, so that might be a 'sticking around' factor.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

sharloid said:


> Most of the argument for huskies has already been given. Just to add, I think the area/part of the world you're in makes a big difference. Here a lot of our walks have sheep near by so I would never be able to let mine off if I wanted. However in Sweden there was the road outside the house but behind, the forest stretched for 30 miles. Obviously a lot less risky out there. I think seeing their human is a lot more novel too, so that might be a 'sticking around' factor.


Definitely, I think the part of the world you live in makes a huge difference. A husky who lives out in hundreds of acres, who runs a sled every day and lives with dozens of other huskies is not likely to get himself in to trouble if the musher forgets to clip the chain all the way, the suburban husky who lazes on the couch most of the day with only periodic runs is going to be a different story all together.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

My terrier is fine off lead in more situations than my sis-in-laws shish tzu. Maybe I can read/know my dog better, but where he's clipped on mine is usually still ok to be off. 

We walk coastal paths, my terrier is off. He likes a view and does go off path to look but can be relied on to get "back on the path". Since a pup (onlead) he's walked coastal paths, shish tzu however, takes off!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I actually love these threads because they really get you thinking about our dogs, their traits, our choices, and isn't that what it's all about? Learning, reflecting, reassessing, confirming... It's all good
> 
> I'm so glad you brought this up, there are those dogs who do bolt when frightened, sighthounds are notorious for this, and it's absolutely tragic, because the dog is terrified and in a panic and won't listen to 'reason' often even ignoring their own owner even if that owner represents safety.
> I think I would be more worried about a fear bolter than a dog who's ears temporarily turn off because the nose took over.
> ...


Re the bit in bold - thats interesting, we find our two boys are much worse if off lead together so they no longer are, Arthur roams even further and Colt who usually has really good recall suddenly doesn't when he is off running with Arthur. Colt the GSP does figures of 8 around us the whole time as long as Arthur is on lead. So nowadays Arthur gets off lead about 3 times a week (4 in the summer with lighter evenings) and Colt on the other walks (and the bit of Arthur's when he is still on his lead). Thankfully Indie can be off lead with either of them otherwise it would get complicated.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Actually you CAN and SHOULD make generalisations about breeds otherwise people who are attracted to a particular breed will not learn anything.

Many of the breeds we enjoy today were bred to fulfil a specific purpose and if they did not meet the criteria they were taken out of the gene pool, permanently.

We are all attracted to and away from breeds due to the choices people made long before we arrived on the scene. Some of these preferences are to do with size, coat, ears, etc but a lot is to do with outlook.

If someone asks me about a particular breed, especially if it happens to be one with which I have a fair amount of empirical knowledge I will give them these "generalisations" which are referred to in many Breed Standards.

If a breed standard makes a reference to "hunting ability of paramount importance" then of course the buyer should hopefully infer from that information care needs to be taken around wildlife!

I am sure someone somewhere has trained a Saluki to be a Guide Dog but as a "general rule" most breed enthusiasts would say it was "unlikely"..........

In fact I can say categorically that if was struck blind tomorrow, this breed would not be on my top 100 as a potential aide...........


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The following are photos of an Alaskan Husky Racing Kennel, Admittedly most seem to be Alaskan Huskies which are a mixture of Siberian and various breeds usually
but without exception they are either hitched up and working or staked when not, but never just roaming free reign. I just picked one kennel at random which is in Quebec Canada there are others but this is a very typical format of a Husky kennel.

http://www.miortuk-alaskan-husky-kennel.com/photos.html

The Siberian Husky club of America too states.

Predatory instincts in the Siberian Husky are strong. While the Siberian is normally gentle and friendly with people and other dogs, owners MUST be aware that small animals in and around the home, such as squirrels, rabbits, birds, guinea pigs, hamsters, and CATS, are potential victims of their strong predatory instinct. They are swift, cunning, and patient in their hunting skills.

There is one final characteristic of the Siberian Husky which we must point out -- their desire to RUN. There are many breeds of dogs which, when let out in the morning, will sit in the front yard all day. Not the Siberian Husky. His heritage has endowed him with the desire to run and his conformation has given him the ability to enjoy it effortlessly. But, one quick lope across a busy street could be the last run that he enjoys, ever. Because of this, we strongly urge that no Siberian Husky ever be allowed unrestrained freedom. Instead, for his own protection, he should be confined or under control at all times. Sufficient exercise for proper development and well-being may be obtained on a leash, in a large enclosure, or best of all, in harness. If you feel that it is inconvenient or cruel to keep a dog thus confined, then the Siberian Husky is not the breed for you.

The Siberian Husky has a delightful temperament, affectionate but not fawning. This gentle and friendly disposition may be a heritage from the past, since the Chukchi people held their dogs in great esteem, housed them in the family shelters, and encouraged their children to play with them. Today, it is charming to observe the special appeal that Siberian Huskies and children have for each other. The Siberian Husky is alert, eager to please, and adaptable. His intelligence has been proven, but his independent spirit may at times challenge your ingenuity. His versatility makes him an agreeable companion to people of all ages and varying interests.

http://www.shca.org/shcahp2a.htm


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Re the bit in bold - thats interesting, we find our two boys are much worse if off lead together so they no longer are, Arthur roams even further and Colt who usually has really good recall suddenly doesn't when he is off running with Arthur. Colt the GSP does figures of 8 around us the whole time as long as Arthur is on lead. So nowadays Arthur gets off lead about 3 times a week (4 in the summer with lighter evenings) and Colt on the other walks (and the bit of Arthur's when he is still on his lead). Thankfully Indie can be off lead with either of them otherwise it would get complicated.


Yep, all falls under knowing your dog and their individual quirks. 
Bates and Lunar had a habit of not being the best influence on each other, (AKA they were cooperative hunters), so we just put a stop to it, and they didn't get to be off leash together except for at home under close supervision. Even so, the two of them decided to go deal with coyotes one night and scared me half to death. They recalled when I called them, but all I could hear was the scuffle in the dark and god I was terrified for them! Of course on that one, I'm glad they were together, but I also wonder if it had been just one of them if they would have been that bold... So yeah... all sorts of things to consider.

We talk about the owner "being the cookie" well sometimes an owner + dog's best dog friend can be a more powerful cookie than just the owner alone. 
My friend's beagle puppy learned some good recall skills with my muttdog because the beagle thinks the muttdog is the best thing since sliced bread, and if he came running she was right on his heels. Social pressure is a powerful force, especially with puppies  Of course once that puppy grows up, she might not be so easily swayed by another dog. 
Or maybe you have dogs who are competitive about owner attention, the dog who doesn't recall may all of a sudden change his mind when he sees you praising and paying attention to another dog. There are all sorts of environmental factors you can use in your favor to encourage a good recall, or to keep in mind when thinking about if a situation is safe enough to unclip that leash.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> I am sure someone somewhere has trained a Saluki to be a Guide Dog but as a "general rule" most breed enthusiasts would say it was "unlikely"..........


A friend of mine bred a GH who we think is the only GH service dog in the nation.
I think the key point here is that while yes, this GH is a service dog (and a very good one), he is the ONLY one of his breed that we know of


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> I don't dispute Huskies are known for having notoriously poor recall/having high prey drive etc. However, I think it's the blanket generalisation of the whole breed that I find more unbelievable. Besides which, in previous conversations on this subject, you yourself have said Huskies are not unique in their training requirements and that all are individuals. I would find the thread itself as more was said, but I think it's been closed and can't be found.


I meant to come back to this, because it is a good discussion point 

There was another thread recently, with a MalinoisXGSD who's owner was struggling with biting.
One poster was trying to say that breed doesn't matter, and the rest of us were trying to explain that some dogs are just always going to be mouthy (and maybe pushy and obnoxious about it too).
For those of us who have the mouthy, pushy, obnoxious dog, it's not that they aren't trained or can't be trusted in specific situations, they can be, and are. But we're also not surprised when the dog does have a moment of frustration/excitement and turns around and muzzle punches us in the gut, or bites a boob, or whatever.

In the same way, if you own a breed notorious for being unsafe off leash, you learn exactly what sorts of situations you can trust them in, and you're not caught by surprise when they behave like a typical dog of that breed.

As for the unsafe off leash, it's not just a recall issue. A skilled trainer can teach sighthounds, scent hounds, northern breeds, etc. a very good recall, and there is nothing unique about how you train them - identify motivators and reinforce them.

However, it's what some breeds do when they don't recall that causes the problem.

Sighthounds can be spooky and will run, and get gone far away fast, and because they're spooked, and now finding themselves in unfamiliar territory, continue to freak and default back to running.

Scent hounds are bred to follow a scent for as long as it takes, so while your average goldie will get bored with the scent after a while, the beagle will still be going sometimes for hours. That's a lot of time to get in trouble. (Interestingly in this state, beagles are the only breed not subject to the "running at large" laws - it's that expected that a beagle will get gone!)

Northern breeds enjoy the act of running itself, it's a self-reinforcing behavior, so they just keep going, and going and going. Add in a complete lack of any sense of being territorial, and they're just not motivated to return to their "territory". They don't have that homing device in them that a lot of dogs do. Like a beagle, will eventually come back home, because they care about home. Huskies don't. They're a breed that went from camp to camp to camp, and move easily between different teams. So having a sense of what their territory is and that they should stay in it doesn't really exist in the breed, whereas a LGD may have terrible recall, but will not leave their flock or wander off.

Those are the traits.
Individuals within each breed will have different expressions of those traits or be anomalies of their breed, or both. So just as there exist retrievers who don't retrieve and herders who don't herd, there are huskies who don't run and beagles who don't use their nose (okay, maybe not on that last one.. )

Then there are the individual circumstances for each dog, and each dog/owner combination:
Our Malamute who was safe off leash did have a homing device because sticking with humans was his lifeline when he lived in the wilds of Alaska. He learned at an early age, find and stay with the humans or die. Not reproducible in your average suburban pet home.
Our sighthound friend who comes to visit defaults to running to the other dogs when she spooks, so she is safe off leash with our other dogs (who don't spook) but not on her own.
My grandpas beagles lived on hundreds of acres with no civilization or roads near by. They were predator savvy and could keep themselves safe even if it took them a day or two to come back home. (Which happened.) Again, most suburban, average pet homes are not going to have hundreds of acres, nor a predator savvy dog who's going to stay safe being gone for 48 hours or more.

Are there individual sibes out there who are safe off leash? Yup. Would I expect that of a sibe if I got one? Nope.

At the end of the day, we can only know our dogs, know how typical or not of their breed they are, know their likely default behaviors, know the environment, know our training, and from there, make an educated decision for you and your dog.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> However, it's what some breeds do when they don't recall that causes the problem.
> 
> Sighthounds can be spooky and will run, and get gone far away fast, and because they're spooked, and now finding themselves in unfamiliar territory, continue to freak and default back to running.
> 
> At the end of the day, we can only know our dogs, know how typical or not of their breed they are, know their likely default behaviors, know the environment, know our training, and from there, make an educated decision for you and your dog.


This - totally.

One time Jack suddenly headed off and after many frantic minutes of calling him I fought my way through some thick undergrowth, jumped a ditch, crossed a stream, struggled through a dense copse, and spotted him running up and down trying to get back to me (my voice) but he was now on the otherside of a barbed wire fence and panicking. I climbed the wire, called him and he came flying up to me, so pleased to have been reunited. Those few seconds - a perfect recall! 

As I've said, if he ran around in circles like a demented idiot, fairly close by then I would probably let him off.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Of course you should take breed traits into consideration in the same way you should take your individual dogs traits into consideration - but not a blanket breed on lead. Use common sense.
We used to have no fence around our garden. The dogs could go where they liked on the farm all day. The herding breeds I had were always within calling distance. The collie cross JRT had the odd lapse when the terrier came out in her. The pure JRT was fine though. My first standard poodle had the same regime but when I had a second the fence had to go up as they would disappear. The miniatures are just as bad. Does not mean they are on the lead all the time though.
I will sometimes put one on the lead if walking in a strange place then the other hangs around. If they both go after something it is very hard to find them again. They, like most dogs, are more responsive if they are out with other dogs that recall well as they tend to stick with them.

What is wrong with choosing a breed that suits your life style then using your common sense in how you manage the individual dog. I cannot get my head round choosing a breed that does not have the characteristics that make it a good couch potato if that is what you want - or whatever else it is you want
My neighbour took on a rescue greyhound and let it out loose and unattended with her other dogs the first day she got it. Oddly it ran off and killed a sheep.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Muttly, JRTs are very commonly on farms and owned by horse people. Never seen one on the lead. They all seem very handler orientated. On the other hand a lot of pet ones seem the opposite so maybe if you keep a JRT fully occupied doing what it was bred to do then it becomes a very different dog.


I would agree there.
This is what I have been working on, in a way. He is very much "what we doing mum, what we doing" bouncing along side me, so the way I keep him engaged with me on walks is to play fetch, chase and tag each other, find treats etc.. Because he just wants to be where the most fun thing is, so I make that me. 
It's how I get his attention off other dogs, as soon as I become more interesting, he forgets that there ever was a dog.
His nose is to the floor for a lot of the walk too, which is why I have been thinking about tracking.

If you have any suggestions to other things I can do, I would love to hear  As I can't take him ratting really... (this isn't mean't to be sarcastic btw, I'm actually interested. But re-read it and it may sound that way, sorry.)


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Muttly said:


> I would agree there.
> This is what I have been working on, in a way. He is very much "what we doing mum, what we doing" bouncing along side me, so the way I keep him engaged with me on walks is to play fetch, chase and tag each other, find treats etc.. Because he just wants to be where the most fun thing is, so I make that me.
> It's how I get his attention off other dogs, as soon as I become more interesting, he forgets that there ever was a dog.
> His nose is to the floor for a lot of the walk too, which is why I have been thinking about tracking.
> ...


You can bring him here ratting any time you like. The only pure JRT that I have owned was a useless ratter though. My shelties and poodles have been far better at it. 
I think the difference between a pet and a farm/horse terrier is that though you are doing all the right things by the sound of it, he will be spending a lot of time in the house without a lot to stimulate him whereas the outdoor one is on the go ALL the time just being a terrier. My one was a rehome and he was reasonably well trained in that he came back when called but we never DID anything with him, he was just around all the time doing terrier things. Not a lot you can do about it though except what you are already doing which sounds great. My current dogs have a far more limited life than previous dogs and are much more pet dogs and they are the first dogs I have had that like toys which I think probably says a lot.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Blitz said:


> You can bring him here ratting any time you like. The only pure JRT that I have owned was a useless ratter though. My shelties and poodles have been far better at it.
> I think the difference between a pet and a farm/horse terrier is that though you are doing all the right things by the sound of it, he will be spending a lot of time in the house without a lot to stimulate him whereas the outdoor one is on the go ALL the time just being a terrier. My one was a rehome and he was reasonably well trained in that he came back when called but we never DID anything with him, he was just around all the time doing terrier things. Not a lot you can do about it though except what you are already doing which sounds great. My current dogs have a far more limited life than previous dogs and are much more pet dogs and they are the first dogs I have had that like toys which I think probably says a lot.


I'm sure he would love that! (although from what I've seen, he just likes the chase. When he has it cornered, he barks for me to come see, he doesn't kill anything) I let him track the moles underground in the fields, he loves that 
My only issue with why he can't be off lead, is he chases Deer. A year ago (we had had him 4 months then), I lost him in the hedges for 20 mins chasing one, and it scared me. Because there are roads nearby.
I do keep thinking now, I may be able to get him back as he does respond to the whistle if all else fails. I have done this with rabbits.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I do think it's a shame though when the owners of dogs that cannot be let off are automatically assumed to be lazy, uneducated, etc. for getting the wrong breed.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in most cases and certainly feel that the majority of dogs are trainable to a reasonable degree and owners should be prepared to make a bit of an effort. 

However, whilst I'm sure I can be lumped in with the "got the wrong dog" crowd, my defence is that as I was getting a rescue and probably middled aged, there was every chance that dog would have an issue of some kind. I was prepared to manage whatever materialised (human aggression would have probably been a deal breaker, not least because I would not feel capable/knowledgeable enough ) and the happiness and safety of the dog was my No. 1 priority. 

Of course, I could have waited for that "perfect" fit, but then Jack could well have been languishing in kennels for the last 4 years - so I think keeping on leash in the open is a small price to pay 

Seeking out a particular breed with known traits that I knew l would find difficult to cope with or manage would have been daft IMO.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> I do think it's a shame though when the owners of dogs that cannot be let off are automatically assumed to be lazy, uneducated, etc. for getting the wrong breed.
> 
> I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in most cases and certainly feel that the majority of dogs are trainable to a reasonable degree and owners should be prepared to make a bit of an effort.
> 
> ...


I can see exactly where you are coming from.
What is the definition of a wrong dog? Getting the wrong dog to me means not researching the breed in the first place, being unable to work out what makes them tick,
and not being able to give them what they need to keep them happy healthy and safe. Maybe there isn't such a thing as a wrong dog for anyone, maybe its more of a case of not finding out what that breed or even individual dog in the case of getting a rescue entails and if your willing to commit and maybe even make some changes and allowances in your life style to own that breed/dog successfully. Or put it another way, if you do get a dog talking whatever breed/s here and you find it might be a lot more work then you think, or has got issues and problems still doesn't mean its the wrong dog, its only a wrong dog, if your not committed and don't love and care for the dog enough to make those changes you may need to and put in the time and effort to resolve any issues that dog may have, if you stick to it you can in most cases turn that wrong dog into the right dog. Even if you may feel this time you think its beyond your experience and knowledge once you have the dog if your willing to learn and get help from a professional if needs be, and are willing to follow through and work on what you are told to do by that professional then in most cases you can resolve it.

Ive posted quite a few times of the issues I had with Kobi as a pup and young dog, and that I got a behaviourist to help. I had two choices get rid of him which believe be there were people who said that's what I should do. Or I could roll my sleeves up dig my heels in and do something to get him over the issues. I had never given up on a dog before and I didn't intend to start then so it had to be the latter. As it happens that dog taught be more then any other as I had to learn things for his sake. Instead of giving up Ive now got one special dog that has a giant bit of my heart and always will, and he has taught me things I probably wouldn't have learned otherwise.

I still think if more people researched, and were willing to work on any issues, there would be a lot less wrong dogs and more right dogs and definitely less in rescue.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

My question probably got lost upthread in my long and sorry tale.... How easy is it to train Staffies to recall well please?


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> My question probably got lost upthread in my long and sorry tale.... How easy is it to train Staffies to recall well please?


Have a read of thread and your question will be answered. Because you can't generalise 'staffy' they are all individuals. Know YOUR staffy first. Take the breed traits into consideration only.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> My question probably got lost upthread in my long and sorry tale.... How easy is it to train Staffies to recall well please?


Very easy, there are lots of SBTs who compete in various disciplines including Obedience and Working Trials, there are also SBTs which are police dogs. They are a very biddable breed

(Warning, the above is a blanket generalisation, terms and conditions apply, your dog may be at risk if you fail to train it correctly)


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I have a video of me and Shelby at offlead, it's awful quality but I'll insert it below anyways :






So I could send that video to someone and say " Look how fantastic my dog is offlead, look how focused she is on me and how she sticks right beside me. Aren't I fantastic to get my dog trained so well"

But she's not, she just decided at that particular time the most exciting thing to do was follow me around. 20 minutes later I was screaming her name running across the field to encourage her to follow me as she was sizing up the perimeter fence :Inpain


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I can see exactly where you are coming from.
> What is the definition of a wrong dog? Getting the wrong dog to me means not researching the breed in the first place, being unable to work out what makes them tick,
> and not being able to give them what they need to keep them happy healthy and safe. Maybe there isn't such a thing as a wrong dog for anyone, maybe its more of a case of not finding out what that breed or even individual dog in the case of getting a rescue entails and if your willing to commit and maybe even make some changes and allowances in your life style to own that breed/dog successfully. Or put it another way, if you do get a dog talking whatever breed/s here and you find it might be a lot more work then you think, or has got issues and problems still doesn't mean its the wrong dog, its only a wrong dog, if your not committed and don't love and care for the dog enough to make those changes you may need to and put in the time and effort to resolve any issues that dog may have, if you stick to it you can in most cases turn that wrong dog into the right dog. Even if you may feel this time you think its beyond your experience and knowledge once you have the dog if your willing to learn and get help from a professional if needs be, and are willing to follow through and work on what you are told to do by that professional then in most cases you can resolve it.
> 
> ...


I do agree with what you are saying but the majority of pet owners want a dog that fits in with their life rather than turn their life round to suit the dog - so therefore getting the wrong breed is a serious mistake because if the dog exhibits the normal breed traits which make it unsuitable as family pet what is the new owner supposed to do. I was advising a friend on what he could do to help his massively overweight (and ever increasing weight) dog who will do anything in her power to steal anything remotely edible but he said he did not want to devote his life to his dog. I think that is how most people feel but in this case getting a rescue dog that is grossly overweight and obviously has an eating disorder (or plain greed) is not a good choice.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I do agree with what you are saying but the majority of pet owners want a dog that fits in with their life rather than turn their life round to suit the dog - so therefore getting the wrong breed is a serious mistake because if the dog exhibits the normal breed traits which make it unsuitable as family pet what is the new owner supposed to do. I was advising a friend on what he could do to help his massively overweight (and ever increasing weight) dog who will do anything in her power to steal anything remotely edible but he said he did not want to devote his life to his dog. I think that is how most people feel but in this case getting a rescue dog that is grossly overweight and obviously has an eating disorder (or plain greed) is not a good choice.


Whatever breed you get though Blitz an easier breed or a harder breed they all need the same basic commitment and things to keep them healthy and happy.
So having a dog whatever breed it is going to change your life in some way. A puppys still going to pee on your carpet until its toilet trained, likely its going to chew at least something you don't want it too, they still all need walking, grooming, taking to the vets and feeding, you still need to make arrangements when you go on holidays or find somewhere suitable to take a dog with you. I personally think the problem a lot of the time is that people just don't think it through, even the basic requirements get a breed that needs still more then some others might and then of course its even worse. Someone posted the Christmas dogs trust advert the other day, giving reasons why dogs are given up, I have heard a lot of them before, but some of the reasons are just appaling.

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/whats-...m-up-to-launch-dogs-trusts-christmas-campaign


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Whatever breed you get though Blitz an easier breed or a harder breed they all need the same basic commitment and things to keep them healthy and happy.
> So having a dog whatever breed it is going to change your life in some way. A puppys still going to pee on your carpet until its toilet trained, likely its going to chew at least something you don't want it too, they still all need walking, grooming, taking to the vets and feeding, you still need to make arrangements when you go on holidays or find somewhere suitable to take a dog with you. I personally think the problem a lot of the time is that people just don't think it through, even the basic requirements get a breed that needs still more then some others might and then of course its even worse. Someone posted the Christmas dogs trust advert the other day, giving reasons why dogs are given up, I have heard a lot of them before, but some of the reasons are just appaling.
> 
> https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/whats-...m-up-to-launch-dogs-trusts-christmas-campaign


'Too perfect'???? 

I think a lot of those just sound like excuses & the real reason is they can't be bothered, but aren't honest enough to admit it.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2015)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> My question probably got lost upthread in my long and sorry tale.... How easy is it to train Staffies to recall well please?


If you can't teach your staffie a recall, might as well hang it up and go home 
No... seriously, bully breeds are ridiculously biddable and very owner dependent. They LOVE their owners and most not only want to be close to their owners, but often touching as well. The more contact the better. Lots of traits that you can capitalize on to build a really stellar recall.



Blitz said:


> Of course you should take breed traits into consideration in the same way you should take your individual dogs traits into consideration - but not a blanket breed on lead. Use common sense.


I'm get what you're saying, and I do agree, but I also see why breed clubs and enthusiasts make the blanket statements.

Huskies are a good example of a breed that has become really popular and your average pet owner is not going to have the training skills to put a good recall on the dog or the knowledge to thoroughly assess if a situation is safe to let the dog off. So rather than go through the 50 point check list of what to consider before unclipping the leash, it's just easier to say, don't do it.

But like I think it was @Lurcherlad who said give the benefit of the doubt - I agree, both on and off. 
If I see an atypical breed off leash, I'm not going to automatically assume the owner is being careless (unless of course the dog is out of control, which frankly I see plenty with typically biddable breeds also), it could be that the owner is an amazing trainer with years of experience with this breed and the dog has a low expression of certain breed traits. 
In the same way, if I see a dog on leash, I'm not going to assume he/she has no recall or the owed never bothered to teach it.

Basically, I'm not going to get involved in other owner's decisions with their dogs unless their unleashed dog is bothering mine or repeatedly showing up loose in my yard


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Whatever breed you get though Blitz an easier breed or a harder breed they all need the same basic commitment and things to keep them healthy and happy.
> So having a dog whatever breed it is going to change your life in some way. A puppys still going to pee on your carpet until its toilet trained, likely its going to chew at least something you don't want it too, they still all need walking, grooming, taking...../snip/...Someone posted the Christmas dogs trust advert the other day, giving reasons why dogs are given up, I have heard a lot of them before, but some of the reasons are just appaling.
> 
> https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/whats-...m-up-to-launch-dogs-trusts-christmas-campaign


Oh my. I worked in a shelter years ago. The worst I heard was "We just aren't 'gelling', darling" and "I didn't realise a pup poohed so much. I expected that much in, like, a week, not a day".

I'd be interested to hear the replies to those. 

The fence was hit by lightning so we took it as a sign that we shouldn't have a dog.....Y_our house was struck by stupid and I take that as a sign that you shouldn't have a dog. _

He kept sitting in front of the TV when the football was on......And *where* do you sit to watch the football? Durr.

He chewed my model helicopter.....He's trying to give you some credibility, man-child. It's still a toy. :Yawn

He kept chewing the grandchildren's nappies.....If they were still in them this might be an issue, I grant you...

All he does is sleep.....Here's an idea: walk him. Novel. I know.

He only poos in our garden.....I dunno...get a cat? :Meh

He kept distracting the children from revising for their GCSEs....IQ is largely inherited so....y'know... 

He's scared of tin foil....Wary of conspiracy theorists? Some might say clever. 

Sorry for going off-topic there - I was a bit  reading the link and I couldn't resist. Apologies.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Those are appalling reasons, why even bother to make up such shit. :Banghead


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Very easy, there are lots of SBTs who compete in various disciplines including Obedience and Working Trials, there are also SBTs which are police dogs. They are a very biddable breed
> 
> (Warning, the above is a blanket generalisation, terms and conditions apply, your dog may be at risk if you fail to train it correctly)


Thanks - nice to have a helpful answer rather than a sarcastic one


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Very easy, there are lots of SBTs who compete in various disciplines including Obedience and Working Trials, there are also SBTs which are police dogs. They are a very biddable breed
> 
> (Warning, the above is a blanket generalisation, terms and conditions apply, your dog may be at risk if you fail to train it correctly)


Your last bit is so true. I have lost count of the number of people who go to obedience classes with their pet dog, get keen and go out and get a collie because their pet dog is not going to make the grade - just to find that as they still have the same training capabilities the collie is no better.



Sled dog hotel said:


> Whatever breed you get though Blitz an easier breed or a harder breed they all need the same basic commitment and things to keep them healthy and happy.
> So having a dog whatever breed it is going to change your life in some way. A puppys still going to pee on your carpet until its toilet trained, likely its going to chew at least something you don't want it too, they still all need walking, grooming, taking to the vets and feeding, you still need to make arrangements when you go on holidays or find somewhere suitable to take a dog with you. I personally think the problem a lot of the time is that people just don't think it through, even the basic requirements get a breed that needs still more then some others might and then of course its even worse. Someone posted the Christmas dogs trust advert the other day, giving reasons why dogs are given up, I have heard a lot of them before, but some of the reasons are just appaling.
> 
> https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/whats-...m-up-to-launch-dogs-trusts-christmas-campaign


Of course getting a dog is a huge commitment. The person I used as an example was perfectly happy to keep two incontinent older dogs and clear up after them the whole time but is not happy to change his way of life to suit the current dog, but is happy for the dog to be stealing and getting obese. My dogs have always been a massive part of my life but no way in this world would I choose a breed that was likely to be so independent it might have to be kept on a lead all the time. It would not be my sort of dog at all. Other people would never choose a herding breed because it would not suit them to have a dog hanging on their every word! Most pet owners want a nice uncomplicated dog that fits into their life and so a northern breed is really not suitable - hence so many in rescue! It is so sad that this has happened and that there are so many unsuitable man on the street pet breeds out there being offered to all and sundry.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Your last bit is so true. I have lost count of the number of people who go to obedience classes with their pet dog, get keen and go out and get a collie because their pet dog is not going to make the grade - just to find that as they still have the same training capabilities the collie is no better.
> 
> Of course getting a dog is a huge commitment. The person I used as an example was perfectly happy to keep two incontinent older dogs and clear up after them the whole time but is not happy to change his way of life to suit the current dog, but is happy for the dog to be stealing and getting obese. My dogs have always been a massive part of my life but no way in this world would I choose a breed that was likely to be so independent it might have to be kept on a lead all the time. It would not be my sort of dog at all. Other people would never choose a herding breed because it would not suit them to have a dog hanging on their every word! Most pet owners want a nice uncomplicated dog that fits into their life and so a northern breed is really not suitable - hence so many in rescue! It is so sad that this has happened and that there are so many unsuitable man on the street pet breeds out there being offered to all and sundry.


Maybe that's why Ive got the breeds I have then Blitz I'm a bit anti establishment, wont do things because someone just says I should I have to make my own mind up, get bored of repetitive things easily, pretty easy going but if challenged cant/ will not walk away from one. I cant jump a six foot fence from standing though. Also thinking about it most serious Sibe owners are a bit mad and let the dogs take over their lives.  Thinking about it and summing it up seems like I might have the right breed/s


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Maybe that's why Ive got the breeds I have then Blitz I'm a bit anti establishment, wont do things because someone just says I should I have to make my own mind up, get bored of repetitive things easily, pretty easy going but if challenged cant/ will not walk away from one. I cant jump a six foot fence from standing though. Also thinking about it most serious Sibe owners are a bit mad and let the dogs take over their lives.  Thinking about it and summing it up seems like I might have the right breed/s


If I had a like minded OH, this would be us. 
Life with dogs is a great one and I am quite happy planning around and doing things with the dogs. I know they are a breed a for me, but just not right for other family members right now.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Whatever breed you get though Blitz an easier breed or a harder breed they all need the same basic commitment and things to keep them healthy and happy.
> So having a dog whatever breed it is going to change your life in some way. A puppys still going to pee on your carpet until its toilet trained, likely its going to chew at least something you don't want it too, they still all need walking, grooming, taking to the vets and feeding, you still need to make arrangements when you go on holidays or find somewhere suitable to take a dog with you. I personally think the problem a lot of the time is that people just don't think it through, even the basic requirements get a breed that needs still more then some others might and then of course its even worse. Someone posted the Christmas dogs trust advert the other day, giving reasons why dogs are given up, I have heard a lot of them before, but some of the reasons are just appaling.
> 
> https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/whats-...m-up-to-launch-dogs-trusts-christmas-campaign


I _knew_ I should have sent Milly back to rescue after chewing my camera ... Think they'll still take her 4 years after the event?  

(No, I'm not serious )


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Dogs Today have an article about Northern Breeds in this month's mag and I know I said I'd not respond to this thread anymore, but thought the stats were relevant to the conversation here.

13% of those asked said their dog had reliable recall.
65% said they suffer with selective deafness.
26% believe their dogs are easy to train compared to the 18% who said they were more difficult.
65% say they pull like a train.
28% think their dog should never be off lead in public, but 36% are happy to let them off anywhere so long as they're well trained.
30% say over 2 hours of exercise a day is more appropriate for the breed, and 95% say they are a very active dog and would suit sporty owners.

The majority of respondents owned Siberian Huskies & Malamutes, with a few owners of Greenland Dogs & Canadian Eskimo Dogs too.

Very interesting results IMO. Not so black & white after all


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Dogs Today have an article about Northern Breeds in this month's mag and I know I said I'd not respond to this thread anymore, but thought the stats were relevant to the conversation here.
> 
> 13% of those asked said their dog had reliable recall.
> 65% said they suffer with selective deafness.
> ...


Out of interest, how many owners took part in the survey?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

SingingWhippet said:


> Out of interest, how many owners took part in the survey?


I have no idea, it's not stated anywhere that I can see? But they put these surveys out each month for their 'dog crush' articles for various breeds.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

If you look at those statistics 36% are happy to let them off lead anywhere if they are well trained, but only 13% say they have a reliable recall. The statistics would be more interesting if they compared them with different breeds.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

@SingingWhippet I messaged DT and 182 completed the survey.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Dogs Today have an article about Northern Breeds in this month's mag and I know I said I'd not respond to this thread anymore, but thought the stats were relevant to the conversation here.
> 
> 13% of those asked said their dog had reliable recall.
> 65% said they suffer with selective deafness.
> ...


Well 28% on lead and 36% allowed off only adds up to a total of 64% so what about the other 36% what do they do.

If 13% say their dogs have a reliable recall then I assume that 87% dogs don't in which case I rest my case the breed as a majority talking Siberian huskies don't.

If 36% are happy to let them off anywhere so long as well trained, then surely there should be more then 13% in the survey who said their dogs had reliable recall.
In which case looks like dogs are being let off who don't come back.

If 36% are happy to let them off anywhere so long as well trained and 65% said they suffer from selective deafness, and only 13% have a reliable recall of dogs in the survey then it sounds like there is a lot of dogs that are unreliable off lead and still being let off.

Likewise if 26% believe there dogs are easy to train, and 65% say they have selective deafness, and only 13% are reliable on recall then they cant be that easy to train.

Not only that the surveys not breed specific anyway, Malamutes are different to Siberians Ive found them easier to train then Siberians and the breed club stipulates
*Can Malamutes be let off lead? As with anything, there is no hard rule. However, Malamutes have a sense of free will and a high prey drive which can lead them to take off after another dog, small furry, etc. and recall is forgotten. There are some owners who work very hard on obedience and are successful in training their Malamutes to return every time but anyone hoping to own a Malamute with perfect recall must be prepared to put in the work. As a general rule it is accepted that most Malamutes have poor recall and so for their own safety and that of prey and livestock they are kept on a lead at all times.

Whatever way you look at it 13% only at the end of the day said their dogs have reliable recall which must mean 87% the majority as some of us have been saying all along don't. The other figures don't add up so there fore there must be dogs being let off who shouldn't be.*


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I wonder if the 36% that were happy to let them off lead *if* they were well trained meant that they would if they could. It might not mean that they do.

I'd like to see the same statistics about yorkies. Although she is a terrier she would have a panic attack if she couldn't find me. It means her recall is excellent.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Well 28% on lead and 36% allowed off only adds up to a total of 64% so what about the other 36% what do they do.
> 
> If 13% say their dogs have a reliable recall then I assume that 87% dogs don't in which case I rest my case the breed as a majority talking Siberian huskies don't.
> 
> ...


I thought the numbers were higher than expected though tbh. There is an owner account of living with the breed ( Sibes ) too, and whilst she confirms they can be unreliable off lead, she does not say they can't be off, only that owners should be 'careful' as to the area they're let off.

I just think it shows that it's not as blanket a statement that they must never be off lead at all, although I do take your point on board that the survey targeted ALL Northern breed owners, not just Sibes, so a mixed bunch of results.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Jobeth said:


> I wonder if the 36% that were happy to let them off lead *if* they were well trained meant that they would if they could. It might not mean that they do.
> 
> I'd like to see the same statistics about yorkies. Although she is a terrier she would have a panic attack if she couldn't find me. It means her recall is excellent.


I thought that too, and I guess with the results of recall being only at 13% you could say that might be the case for the 36%. Still, Interesting they don't see any issue with allowing a Northern breed off lead 'anywhere' if trained appropriately.

DT run breed articles every month. Have no idea whether Yorkies have been featured yet or not, but it's worth keeping an eye out on their FB page as they link to the surveys each month for owner participation.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> I thought the numbers were higher than expected though tbh. There is an owner account of living with the breed ( Sibes ) too, and whilst she confirms they can be unreliable off lead, she does not say they can't be off, only that owners should be 'careful' as to the area they're let off.
> 
> I just think it shows that it's not as blanket a statement that they must never be off lead at all, although I do take your point on board that the survey targeted ALL Northern breed owners, not just Sibes, so a mixed bunch of results.


Confirming they are unreliable off lead which they are, and that owners should be careful as to the areas they are let off, could also mean what most of us do only fully enclosed safe areas.

If 13% said that they had reliable recall its still the vast majority leaving probably 87% that don't. So like I and others have been saying all along as a breed the probability that they will run off rather then wont still far exceeds the likelihood they will.

You have still also got the 65% again the majority that said they suffer from selective deafness, which is actually more like because of the way they are wired as regards prey drive and the urge to run which outweighs anything else once that kicks in. My Malamute and Malamute/sibe mix far excelled the 100% Siberians for trainability but that was still in the confines of a training class, she was 100% reliable and virtually so was he and is reliable when their isnt any small furries birds or the fox about, but give her or him something to focus on prospective prey and hunting opportunity wise any training is totally gone. The Huskies were no where near as proficient in training class anyway and never got to the level the Mal and Mal mixes did there. I still wouldn't let the Mals off in unrestricted areas because like the sibes they are onto prey literally in the blink of an eye and so quick with it its literally instant.

As said the survey doesn't give breed specifics, and the various figures don't match up to back up the individual various statesments percentage wise so they are still a contradiction.
One thing they also don't say is age, because in both breeds that plays a part too, a puppy and young sibe and the Mals are more dependant and when they get to about 9months or so that's normally when the troubles and differences in behaviour tends to start, which is also why the most common age to enter welfare for rehoming is the 9/18 month mark.

Canadian Eskimos are pretty rare breeds for 2014 there was a total of 20 registered for 2015 first three quarterly registrations there has been 25
The Greenlands for 2014 there was a grand total of 2 registrations and for the first three quarters of 2015 there was the grand total of none.
From 2005 to 2013 there was only 72 registered in 9 years for Canadian eskimos and 83 greenlands in those 9 years, so I shouldn't think there was that many of those in the survey.

The survey I believe someone said was only 182 dogs anyway in total over all the breeds. There isn't a break down of breeds either, in 9 years Siberian Huskies there was 18,343 registrations
and Alaskan Malamutes 10,400 that's without all the numpties. So with so few dogs and no breed specifics you have to ask if its a fair picture of things anyway.

Still remains though with only 13% saying recall was reliable and 65% saying the suffer selective deafness, its still in the majority that seems to dictate that as a breed
Northern breeds are far more likely to be unreliable off lead then reliable and recall.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> My Malamute and Malamute/sibe mix far excelled the 100% Siberians for trainability but that was still in the confines of a training class, she was 100% reliable and virtually so was he and is reliable when their isnt any small furries birds or the fox about, but give her or him something to focus on prospective prey and hunting opportunity wise any training is totally gone. The Huskies were no where near as proficient in training class anyway and never got to the level the Mal and Mal mixes did there. I still wouldn't let the Mals off in unrestricted areas because like the sibes they are onto prey literally in the blink of an eye and so quick with it its literally instant.


This made me a little happy to read, as my Huskies are absolute buggers sometimes. They are so easy to train, but sometimes enforcing it is an entirely different thing. They definitely give me the "I'll sit when I'm good and ready, or when you produce the treats" attitude if there's something worth sniffing or checking out in the vicinity.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

But what does your average joe class as reliable recall?

The people who always let their dogs off because they come back when there isn't a distraction suddenly turns into "Oh he's usually great unless there's something more interesting"  That is not a reliable recall. I wonder what this person would of answered.

I would struggle to answer the survey because it depends on location. Muttly is mainly on lead due to my local area with close roads and lots of wildlife, but if we go to the beach for example on a quiet morning and I only have to contend with a distant dog, his recall is brilliant.

As a blanket statement then I would say no, Muttly's recall is not solid at all. We are very much still working on it (with great success I might add :Smug )


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

*But what does your average joe class as reliable recall?* I think this is such a good point @Muttly.

I had a very good friend who was, in all other ways, a sensible woman, however she rescued two lurchers and insisted on letting them off-lead on every walk :Bawling. They were a complete nightmare, often disappearing for absolutely ages. We walked in areas which I considered only semi-safe too .


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I was just thinking what would my parents answer?

They have 2 Retrievers, one is extremely obedient in nearly every way, ignores other dogs, stays in sight checking back for you. BUT, if she sees/smells a horrible muddy bog, she WILL NOT listen to them calling her, she will carry on and dive in that bog.
The other one, will totally blow her recall around livestock. Anywhere else, she's fine.

These 2 are off lead everywhere (except livestock).

I suppose as a blanket statement for them, they would say Yes, they do have a reliable recall.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Muttly said:


> The people who always let their dogs off because they come back when there isn't a distraction suddenly turns into "Oh he's usually great unless there's something more interesting"  That is not a reliable recall.


This is one of my bugbears. If you cannot call your off-lead dog away from an on lead dog, then your dog should be kept on-lead, unless in an area where you're unlikely to bump into lots of other dogs.

In my area we have so many off-lead dogs who the owners frequently say "he's fine, he just wants to play". I have only met one lady who told me that her dog had been trained not to go anywhere near on-lead dogs.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> This is one of my bugbears. If you cannot call your off-lead dog away from an on lead dog, then your dog should be kept on-lead, unless in an area where you're unlikely to bump into lots of other dogs.
> 
> In my area we have so many off-lead dogs who the owners frequently say* "he's fine, he just wants to play"*. I have only met one lady who told me that her dog had been trained not to go anywhere near on-lead dogs.


Grrr, I hate this. I'm always like "Mine doesn't ffs, he's on a lead!!!!!"
(ok, Muttly actually does want to play, but not on these terms he's not gonna!)


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Muttly said:


> Grrr, I hate this. I'm always like "Mine doesn't ffs, he's on a lead!!!!!"
> (ok, Muttly actually does want to play, but not on these terms he's not gonna!)


Dex and Lola would love to play, but I have been dragged through bushes on my face more than a couple of times when a dog a has come over to play and they've decided to play chase, so now I prefer to keep other dogs away unless it's for a brief little sniff and then move on


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

From the dogs' point of view I think it's sensible to err on the side of caution and assume that if you get a
northern breed, there is a very high chance that they will not be reliable off lead, have high prey drive, etc.

If that prospective owner cannot/will not accommodate such a dog, they will hopefully be steered towards a more biddable breed.

I think to do otherwise is a disservice to the dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

There are loads of people who believe their dog has reliable recall if it comes back eventually whereas I think most of us on here consider a dog to have a reliable recall if it comes back each and every time it's called reasonably quickly. Just something else to take into consideration.

I let Spen off although his recall is not 100%, he usually comes back when called so as long as I stay alert for the major distraction of other dogs appearing we're all good  And when he doesn't come back immediately it's usually because he's engrossed in a sniff, he's not heading for the horizon so I feel safe enough letting him off.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

y


Muttly said:


> But what does your average joe class as reliable recall?
> 
> The people who always let their dogs off because they come back when there isn't a distraction suddenly turns into "Oh he's usually great unless there's something more interesting"  That is not a reliable recall. I wonder what this person would of answered.
> 
> ...


This is it exactly what one person may call a recall another definitely wouldn't. I remember talking to a guy ages ago he stopped to chat as I had mine and he said he Had a Siberian husky and his come back. He then proceeded to tell me that it disappeared for well over hour when he had taken it to the plains and woods. Apparently this style of" recall" or coming back as he called it happened all the time, but "His came Back".

To me a reliable recall means coming back first go each and every time whatever is about, or at least the maximum of calling maybe a couple of times occasionally and then back.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

My Ty certainly doesn't have a reliable recall. Unfortunately in his younger days he was _that _dog. The one who would run over to your dog, with me his hapless owner running on behind but unable to call him away. In those days I continued to let him off despite not being able to call him back. Looking back now I was being irresponsible and I could never do the same these days....wouldn't have the nerve anymore let alone anything else! So Ty these days is let off but in 'careful' areas  If on the beach and we see lots of dogs around, Ty has to stay on. I'm also careful about allowing him off in areas that I know are more heavily populated with walkers/dogs. These days he comes back, but always in his own time. He has never returned once to me first time I've called him. Once off he walks pretty far ahead of me to which I've never much liked, but I work and manage with what i've got and it wouldn't turn me off another sighthound in the future. Perhaps there are alot of sighthound owners who allow their dogs off when they really shouldn't be either, hence why you think it's more common to see them off lead. But perhaps not always the best idea?

I guess the point is you base your desicions and training around your individual dog.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> y
> This is it exactly what one person may call a recall another definitely wouldn't. I remember talking to a guy ages ago he stopped to chat as I had mine and he said he Had a Siberian husky and his come back. He then proceeded to tell me that it disappeared for well over hour when he had taken it to the plains and woods. Apparently this style of" recall" or coming back as he called it happened all the time, but "His came Back".
> 
> To me a reliable recall means coming back first go each and every time whatever is about, or at least the maximum of calling maybe a couple of times occasionally and then back.


I agree, Muttly doesn't have a reliable recall. He has some recall, which is circumstance based = in general, not a reliable recall. (Ijust don't like to ignore our progress, which is why I mention, when he does recall :Shy)
When I lost him in the hedges for 20 mins chasing deer, he came back yes, but that's not a recall when I must have called his name a thousand times first.

That's an epic fail.:Facepalm


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Bigby had a good recall the other day... it was pitch black and this jogger came out of no where, Io ignored him and I was thinking 'Wheres BigGay!?' I shine my torch on the jogger and hes there! I called him and luckily he came back instead of jogging with him. I was happy he came back but the jogger came along so quick Bigby was soon on his tail - he just wants to love everyone  if I'd known he was there I would have put Bigby on lead but he had poor reflectives in the dark.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Muttly said:


> I agree, Muttly doesn't have a reliable recall. He has some recall, which is circumstance based = in general, not a reliable recall. (Ijust don't like to ignore our progress, which is why I mention, when he does recall :Shy)
> When I lost him in the hedges for 20 mins chasing deer, he came back yes, but that's not a recall when I must have called his name a thousand times first.
> 
> That's an epic fail.:Facepalm


On the heath near where I live I'm constantly hearing people blowing those little dog whistles for ages and ages. The other day a little cocker went flying past us, in completely the opposite direction to the sound of the whistle. All I could do was follow the whistle and tell her which direction I last saw him streaking off in.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Hanwombat said:


> Bigby had a good recall the other day... it was pitch black and this jogger came out of no where, Io ignored him and I was thinking 'Wheres *BigGay*!?' I shine my torch on the jogger and hes there! I called him and luckily he came back instead of jogging with him. I was happy he came back but the jogger came along so quick Bigby was soon on his tail - he just wants to love everyone  if I'd known he was there I would have put Bigby on lead but he had poor reflectives in the dark.


LOL


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> This made me a little happy to read, as my Huskies are absolute buggers sometimes. They are so easy to train, but sometimes enforcing it is an entirely different thing. They definitely give me the "I'll sit when I'm good and ready, or when you produce the treats" attitude if there's something worth sniffing or checking out in the vicinity.


This may make you happier. As Mentioned I have found out of the two breeds training even in class the Malamute and the Mal/Sibe mix far exceeded anything the Siberians ever achieved. I have posted this before but you may have missed it, Its Dr Ian Dunbar who is a world renowned trainers Malamute Memoirs, he had a couple of Malamutes and he even mentions on there that Northern breeds are different to train and he describes it as forgetting things again quickly after they learn or words to that affect cant remember exactly. Personally I believe its more a matter of remembering but natural instincts and drives taking over. If you haven't ever read the article you may find it interesting its also quite entertaining.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/malamute-memories

ETA found the bit about forgetting as he explains it
*Training ProblemsRoutine obedience problems proved to be much easier to resolve, especially once I empathized with the Malamutian point of view. Many Nordic breeds are the quickest learners but unfortunately, they are also the quickest forgetters. They retain only that which is relevant. Thus, training must involve firstly, teaching the meaning of commands and secondly, teaching their relevance. Certainly, these dogs know the meaning of instructions like "Sit" and "Down", but they do not necessarily see the importance in complying. Whereas a Sheltie or Border Collie might be perfectly willing to obediently bob up and down like a yo-yo, a Malamute has other priorities. Tell a Malamute to sit and he sits, tell him to lie down and he lies down, but tell him to sit again and he says, "Didn't we just do that one?" On the other hand, ask him to sit and lie down and sit and lie down before telling him "Go play", "Hike" or "Dindins", and he will happily bob up and down like a yo-yo

*


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> LOL


For he is 'BigGay Woof'  the dog has too many nicknames


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This may make you happier. As Mentioned I have found out of the two breeds training even in class the Malamute and the Mal/Sibe mix far exceeded anything the Siberians ever achieved. I have posted this before but you may have missed it, Its Dr Ian Dunbar who is a world renowned trainers Malamute Memoirs, he had a couple of Malamutes and he even mentions on there that Northern breeds are different to train and he describes it as forgetting things again quickly after they learn or words to that affect cant remember exactly. Personally I believe its more a matter of remembering but natural instincts and drives taking over. If you haven't ever read the article you may find it interesting its also quite entertaining.
> 
> http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/malamute-memories
> 
> ...


That could equally apply to sighthounds too though.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> That could equally apply to sighthounds too though.


Absolutely.
It applies to numerous breeds and mixes (the poor mixes always get left out in these conversations - gotta wonder what poor mixed breed owners do without a blueprint for how their dog is supposed to behave )

It's so common actually that Jane Killion wrote a whole book about dogs like this who are quick learners but not easily motivated "When Pigs Fly" is a great read for anyone who has a dog who sits once and then says "why are we doing this one again?"


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> My Ty certainly doesn't have a reliable recall. Unfortunately in his younger days he was _that _dog. The one who would run over to your dog, with me his hapless owner running on behind but unable to call him away. In those days I continued to let him off despite not being able to call him back. Looking back now I was being irresponsible and I could never do the same these days....wouldn't have the nerve anymore let alone anything else! So Ty these days is let off but in 'careful' areas  If on the beach and we see lots of dogs around, Ty has to stay on. I'm also careful about allowing him off in areas that I know are more heavily populated with walkers/dogs. These days he comes back, but always in his own time. He has never returned once to me first time I've called him. Once off he walks pretty far ahead of me to which I've never much liked, but I work and manage with what i've got and it wouldn't turn me off another sighthound in the future. Perhaps there are alot of sighthound owners who allow their dogs off when they really shouldn't be either, hence why you think it's more common to see them off lead. But perhaps not always the best idea?
> 
> I guess the point is you base your desicions and training around your individual dog.


Ty sounds exactly like Spen who is definitely not a sight hound lol, he's just that stereotypical over friendly Lab. I'm careful where I let him off because I know he'll approach other dogs if I'm not quick enough to call him back or if they appear within a certain distance. He stays on lead if it's winding paths or I can't see far for whatever reason because of it. We work on it constantly but I'm not convinced he'll ever be fully reliable when it comes to ignoring other dogs. Once he's had a sniff (or decides the other dogs body language isn't welcoming) he's more than happy to come back and I'm so hypervigilant from having had Rupert that it's very rare he has the chance to approach in the first place. Usually I call him back, leash him and the other dog comes over anyway.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> That could equally apply to sighthounds too though.


Having never owned a sight hound breed and trained them or not had a lot to do with them I wouldn't know. Likewise if some one or several someones who did have the breed knowledge and had trained them said XYZ then I therefore wouldn't argue the point they were wrong either and I knew more about them, I would concede to their better knowledge on the subject that would 0bviously exceed my own.

One thing I would say that as far as I know sight hounds or ones like greyhounds tend to be sprinters, fast speeds over shorter distance and then run out of steam.
Siberian Huskies are fast speeds over long distances so have much higher stamina, Malamutes are slower then Huskies but still have the ability for a good amount of speed over again long distances, so I would assume on the recall running off front it would be likely that a Siberian or Malamute deciding to take off may be that bit more of an issue perhaps.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Absolutely.
> It applies to numerous breeds and mixes (the poor mixes always get left out in these conversations - gotta wonder what poor mixed breed owners do without a blueprint for how their dog is supposed to behave )
> "


We look at both breed traits and take it with a pinch of salt :Happy
What does Muttly think? rather than what would a JR or Chi do?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Io's recall can be hit and miss, though she is not one to run off into the distance and never return ( she knows I supply food  ). I know she is Rottweiler but as for the other part of her DNA... who knows


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Having never owned a sight hound breed and trained them or not had a lot to do with them I wouldn't know. Likewise if some one or several someones who did have the breed knowledge and had trained them said XYZ then I therefore wouldn't argue the point they were wrong either and I knew more about them, I would concede to their better knowledge on the subject that would 0bviously exceed my own.
> 
> One thing I would say that as far as I know sight hounds or ones like greyhounds tend to be sprinters, fast speeds over shorter distance and then run out of steam.
> Siberian Huskies are fast speeds over long distances so have much higher stamina, Malamutes are slower then Huskies but still have the ability for a good amount of speed over again long distances, so I would assume on the recall running off front it would be likely that a Siberian or Malamute deciding to take off may be that bit more of an issue perhaps.


Add in a bit of Saluki and they then have much more stamina!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ty sounds exactly like Spen who is definitely not a sight hound lol, he's just that stereotypical over friendly Lab. I'm careful where I let him off because I know he'll approach other dogs if I'm not quick enough to call him back or if they appear within a certain distance. He stays on lead if it's winding paths or I can't see far for whatever reason because of it. We work on it constantly but I'm not convinced he'll ever be fully reliable when it comes to ignoring other dogs. Once he's had a sniff (or decides the other dogs body language isn't welcoming) he's more than happy to come back and I'm so hypervigilant from having had Rupert that it's very rare he has the chance to approach in the first place. Usually I call him back, leash him and the other dog comes over anyway.


Yes, that's the word - hyper vigilant. I'm a dab hand at that now, what with both Missy the way she is and Ty being Mr Independent. It is something I too have had to learn to manage. If we see another dog in the distance I just have to hope I can call him back before he spots the dog tbh, hence why he's only off in careful areas really.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

Muttly said:


> We look at both breed traits and take it with a pinch of salt :Happy
> What does Muttly think? rather than what would a JR or Chi do?


I have a muttdog of unknown origin. No idea what breeds he is, he's obviously got some bull-breed in there, then what else, who knows. He has been mistaken for anything from a lab to a pitbull to a great dane X.
He has the prey drive, biddability, and human friendliness of the pitbull types, but otherwise, it's like you say, based on the individual, not the "breed".

We have had several heinz 57 types over the years, of complete unknown origin, no idea who either parent was or what breed (if any). Most came to us as problem dogs, or who had lost their home for some behavioral reason. We somehow managed to train them, treat them like dogs, not get confined by pre-conceived breed notions or "rules" and turn them in to respectable canine citizens.

Breed traits do matter, but dogs are individuals too 

Off topic but kind of on... About 15, 20 years ago, a friend of mine who is in to sighthounds started transitioning from traditional training to clicker training. To say she was given a hard time by the breed "experts" is an understatement. The number of people who told her she was a fool, that you can't clicker train sight hounds... 
As things turn out, my friend has had the last laugh. Her dogs have been the top showing dogs for many years now with one of her males going BOB at Westminster  
I know many clicker trained sighthounds who do respectably well in obedience, rally, agility etc. I also know several breed experts who still swear up and down that you can't clicker train a sighthound.

I don't know how some these absolutes about breeds get started, but sometimes they are meant to be challenged. Or at the very least questioned (within the confines of health and safety of course!)

He who says it can't be done should get out of the way of the person doing it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> Add in a bit of Saluki and they then have much more stamina!


See like I said never lived with a sight hound never trained one and much less a saluki, although we did help an owner and lurcher that was a saluki mix help overcome fear aggression with other dogs at training Nanuq and I. I haven't got one I assume you have and you obviously know better and more about then I do


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This may make you happier. As Mentioned I have found out of the two breeds training even in class the Malamute and the Mal/Sibe mix far exceeded anything the Siberians ever achieved. I have posted this before but you may have missed it, Its Dr Ian Dunbar who is a world renowned trainers Malamute Memoirs, he had a couple of Malamutes and he even mentions on there that Northern breeds are different to train and he describes it as forgetting things again quickly after they learn or words to that affect cant remember exactly. Personally I believe its more a matter of remembering but natural instincts and drives taking over. If you haven't ever read the article you may find it interesting its also quite entertaining.
> 
> http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/malamute-memories
> 
> ...


This is brilliant! I have had a couple of people on here tell me that I'm a dreadful trainer (well yes, I'm not a trainer, but I'm trying my best) as it is never the dog's fault, it's always my fault. I felt so stupid and useless after those comments, so thank you. And yes, mine are utterly brilliant at sitting when I get their harnesses out or get their supper ready


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> This is brilliant! I have had a couple of people on here tell me that I'm a dreadful trainer (well yes, I'm not a trainer, but I'm trying my best) as it is never the dog's fault, it's always my fault. I felt so stupid and useless after those comments, so thank you. And yes, mine are utterly brilliant at sitting when I get their harnesses out or get their supper ready


Well a lot think I'm crap at training too, and don't even know my own breeds so at least that makes two of us.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Well a lot think I'm crap at training too, and don't even know my own breeds so at least that makes two of us.


I think I'm probably in your gang too 
We walk our own road


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> See like I said never lived with a sight hound never trained one and much less a saluki, although we did help an owner and lurcher that was a saluki mix help overcome fear aggression with other dogs at training Nanuq and I. I haven't got one I assume you have and you obviously know better and more about then I do


My knowledge is limited, Jack being my first experience of sight hounds. I'm not so sure he would be a match for your gang, but having the saluki blood might give him an edge over a greyhound over a distance

Bottom line is we want to keep them safe from themselves!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Born to Boogie said:


> I think I'm probably in your gang too
> We walk our own road


Or maybe we are just getting too much like the dogs.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Having never owned a sight hound breed and trained them or not had a lot to do with them I wouldn't know. Likewise if some one or several someones who did have the breed knowledge and had trained them said XYZ then I therefore wouldn't argue the point they were wrong either and I knew more about them, I would concede to their better knowledge on the subject that would 0bviously exceed my own.
> 
> One thing I would say that as far as I know sight hounds or ones like greyhounds tend to be sprinters, fast speeds over shorter distance and then run out of steam.
> Siberian Huskies are fast speeds over long distances so have much higher stamina, Malamutes are slower then Huskies but still have the ability for a good amount of speed over again long distances, so I would assume on the recall running off front it would be likely that a Siberian or Malamute deciding to take off may be that bit more of an issue perhaps.


Surely it's not how far or fast they can run compared to each other, but how far and fast they can run consisted to you...I mean, I've yet to meet a dog I can outrun, lol.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Or maybe we are just getting too much like the dogs.


I really do believe that. I Doggy sat a very needy lab for a couple of weeks not long ago. I found that his constant need for attention drained me (and Dex kept on sneaking off to hide). It made me realise that Dex and I are very alike


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Jax's recall is very hit and miss, if we could walk somewhere and see no other people or dogs then he would be fine. But add those into the mix and he is off! no matter what you do he wont hear you, be it onlead or offlead dogs he has to go up to them. So he remains onlead as its better for him and the other dog, plus we have had occasions where people have been walking their in season bitch and with him being entire thats a no go situation ha.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

MrRustyRead said:


> Jax's recall is very hit and miss, if we could walk somewhere and see no other people or dogs then he would be fine. But add those into the mix and he is off! no matter what you do he wont hear you, be it onlead or offlead dogs he has to go up to them. So he remains onlead as its better for him and the other dog, plus we have had occasions where people have been walking their in season bitch and with him being entire thats a no go situation ha.


Oh yes, the in season bitch problem. Dex becomes a whole new dog if there's one within 10 miles. Lola then gets jealous and starts beating him up. Oh the joy


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

There are some dogs who will respond to training better than other dogs. I have seen typical traits in certain breeds but then I have seen certain dogs of those breeds respond well to recall.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh yes, the in season bitch problem. Dex becomes a whole new dog if there's one within 10 miles. Lola then gets jealous and starts beating him up. Oh the joy


Boo took off a couple of weeks ago, after an in season bitch. Recall, relaxed at the best of times, zero. I had to physically catch him. Received some hefty bruises and scratches (me, not him), extracting him from the clutches of his new amour :Kiss
Boys! It goes with the territory


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