# untrainable dog



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

Is there such a thing as an untrainable dog??? Or is it the trainer that is untrainable!!! I have a 8mth old border collie (having had dogs previously and trained them without too much problems) and dont seem to be gettng anywhere. 
1. toilteting - we leave the door open most of the time (dread the winter coming) and mostly she will go outside but yesterday she was outside most of the afternoon and then came in and wee'd on the kitchen floor without warning!! She is crate trained and i feel that every time i leave her i have to put her in the crate (even if i am popping in the shower). I really want to be able to leave her in the utility but am sure i will come back to wee's.
2. chewing - we are constantly with her and she is restricted (as are we!!) to the back rooms. She still attempts to chew but as we are there we can stop her but if i put her in the utility while i am doing something eg answering the door she chews the door frame. Have tried sprays but she licks it off.
3. walking - am now using a canny collar as she was a nightmare pulling and this is much better but at times she stills puts her head down and GOES FOR IT. My hand is sometimes red raw.
4. recall - used to be good but last few weeks she will come nowhere near me if she is off lead and we have a standoff lasting 20-25mins sometimes. Last night i sat on the field and felt like crying. She doesn't come back voluntarily - i usually have to make a grab for her as she passes!! I don't tell her off but inside i am calling her all the bad names i know!! I'm so frustrated that i feel like not letting her off the lead at all on walks.
NB have tried all the training advised learned on this forum for the above problems for the last 6 mths to little success. In the house or garden she will do recall lovely but is a different door away from home. She has been to dog training classes-again did everything she was supposed to there but not outside. All i can say that today i am not liking my dog very much.


----------



## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm in a rush but just on point 1, leaving the door open all the time _may_ be causing a problem. She doesn't see the house and garden as a separate space so therefore will not see any difference between going in the kitchen or the garden. You need to go right back to puppy house training, out every hour, praise,praise, praise etc etc!! Once you are feeling more confident then you can think about a dog flap if your garden is secure?

I'll have a lookie at the rest later...my boss actually has given me some work so I have to rush off..how rude!!!


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

JSR said:


> I'm in a rush but just on point 1, leaving the door open all the time _may_ be causing a problem. She doesn't see the house and garden as a separate space so therefore will not see any difference between going in the kitchen or the garden. You need to go right back to puppy house training, out every hour, praise,praise, praise etc etc!! Once you are feeling more confident then you can think about a dog flap if your garden is secure?
> 
> I'll have a lookie at the rest later...my boss actually has given me some work so I have to rush off..how rude!!!


If we do close the door she has wee'd in the kitchen without making any effort to go to the door which is why we started to leave it open. Believe me i do praise constantly - so much so i'm sure she ignores me now as she's heard it so often!!!!


----------



## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

That's why you need to go back to the beginning. Are you at home all day cos then it's so easy to house train? It usually takes me on average 2 days to re-train the foster dogs, having other dogs that are clean does help of course, but I find by taking them out every hour or half hour if need works. Otherwise I'd be popping her to the vets just in case she has an infection that is causing her to wee more often than is normal.


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

Forgot to mention her biting. As a small puppy she had the normal nipping but we got over that but now she will turn and bare her teeth if we move her away from something she shouldn't be doing eg biting the table leg and will really goes for us. Have tried to distract her which she ignores but i don't want to give her treats to get her away as will she not think she is being rewarded for chewing the table!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'll leave the other points for those experienced more with the breed to help with, just going for the recall, I've had a couple of instances with my girl Tau (Labrador) recently, where she's been pushing this one. I've stamped on it (metaphorically) as quickly as I can, and am seeing a good improvement over the last couple of days. 

The first time she basically stuck twos up at me, I had no chance of getting anywhere close for her to even hear my 'Oi you b****y 'orrible mutt' growly voice, and so when she did choose to come back to me I just quietly popped her on lead with a mental note to make sure that one got dealt with. She got a few practise short recalls and they were perfect.

The next day she chose to fail at recall close enough for me to act, and she got the growly voice at exactly the right point. She got put back on lead, and we practised heelwork and stops, and a few recalls, and praised for getting it right. Over the last couple of days we've been really practising heelwork and stops, and of course recalls, both on and off lead. I am really pleased to say, she's recalled off two rabbits legging it in the opposite direction, and even came away from the same spot (bang on the whistle recall) this morning, where she'd failed to recall originally because of whatever lovely scent. In fact I've had a few lovely long recalls where she's turned instantly and come back; I've also had the odd occasion where a smell might distract her coming in, and the very second I've seen that sign again where she switches off I've pounced on it. She actually loves getting things right, so given the opportunity, she loves coming for a fuss and praise, the more I can get that with her the better. 

Her recall isn't bad, but it isn't 100%, I don't believe there is such a thing, the only time it deteriorates though is when I'm not practising enough, and it gives me a kick up the backside to stop taking it for granted so much when she doesn't recall.

NB: please replace 'Oi you b****y 'orrible mutt' for 'You lovely sweet pink and fluffy cuttiepie' if you really can't bring yourself to call your dog that, its the growly voice and your 'I mean it' attitude that really count


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Without stating the obvious you have a lot of issues. If a parent was describing how their child had all these problems, you would probably say that the child is disrespectful and not following the rules.

I think that rather than look at training, you need to look at how you are managing your dog. It sounds as if the dog is in charge and does what it wants, whilst you look disparingly on.

In my opinion you need to re-establish yourself as pack leader or for want of a better word, the boss. Only once you have acheived this status will you solve all the problems you have.

You mention that you have tried lots of things, but have you considered the fact that it is you and not the dog which needs training? I do not wish to sound harsh or critical, I myself made a number of mistakes, which you can read about in my profile! More often than not with dogs, it is not about training the dog, but about us understanding WHY they are doing it and how we can best solve it.

If you are interested in this train of thought, I will happily expand on my ideas and techniques.
x


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Without stating the obvious you have a lot of issues. If a parent was describing how their child had all these problems, you would probably say that the child is disrespectful and not following the rules.
> 
> I think that rather than look at training, you need to look at how you are managing your dog. It sounds as if the dog is in charge and does what it wants, whilst you look disparingly on.
> 
> ...


Any advice greatly received!


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2009)

How much exercise does your dog get?
How much training or stimulating play are you giving your dog?
Have you had a Collie before?


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

rona said:


> How much exercise does your dog get?
> How much training or stimulating play are you giving your dog?
> Have you had a Collie before?


I proberly exercise her too much as she is still a pup but here goes. She goes out in the morning for a 30-40mins walk. Then early afternoon she is taken on a lead walk for roughly 1 1/2 - 2 hrs. Early evening she is either taken to the farmers field and let off to run round for approx. 1hr or we take her on a lead walk for 1hr. last thing at night she is taken for 10 mins walk. I work 12 hr shifts and am able to work hubbys days off so there is always someone to do this.
I have spent time both in the house and garden playing with her - i would say about 15 mins in the morning and again in the evening but this is a very rough guide as days differ. We hide a toy and she looks for it or throw the ball to retrieve. She can sit, lie down, roll over, give a paw and stay (only when in the house or garden-totally different if elsewhere!!)
I have never had a collie before (had labs last 2 times) but my hubby has.


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

Also have teenage daughter who plays with her in the house/garden but due to being bitten is now very reluctant.


----------



## cdcclub (Jun 13, 2009)

Can I ask what you use to clean up the pee and if the dog is around when you are doing so?

If you are not using a product that is killing off the scent then your dog will still assume that they can do their business in that area as their scent is already there.

If the dog watches you clean it up again this will be a learnt behaviour also giving it the green light to urinate in that spot.

As for the chewing, collies that are under stimulated or nervous are prone to chewing. You need to find away to keep the brain active and make sure that your dog is getting the amount of exercise it needs both for the body and the mind.

Collies are extremely sensitive to moods of their owners if you are becoming fed up or angry with situations they can really sense this, try not to focus to much on what your dog has been like over the past few months and try to start with a clean slate and go back to the beginning with the training and bonding as having the trust and companionship between collie and owner is essential for you and your dogs training to build up a happy life long bond. 

Will read through your post a few more times and see if there is any other ideas I can think of to help you out.


----------



## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

There's a very good reason why I will never have a collie...they are just too bright for their own good!! Sounds like she's bored and I know you are doing your best cos the exercise most definately should be enough, but for alot of collies its not just a physical outlet they require. Is there anyway you can join some classes with her? She needs to have that brain worked until she drops!! Obviously agility is out until she's 18 months but if you have a local class it might be worth contacting them and asking advise. I HATE heel work to music but in her case it might be worth investigating as it does make them think (and getting hubby to practice with her will be entertaining for you!!). Even just general obedience classes will make her think. 

If not a working trainer would be my way of going, because it sounds to me like she's got an extreamly strong working drive and it's just not being met in a home situation. Some collies are just not suited to living as a family pet without being given a 'job'. She could be trained to work for you in the house, picking up clothes etc. Sounds stupid maybe but anything that will give her brain a chance to work and not just her physical being. 


Personally I don't like working breeds purely as pets, my JRT 'works' while he's out on his walks, he is trained to hunt because it gives his natural instinct a working. I'm planning to get a lurcher in the next few months, and that too will be worked. 

Not going to be easy with this young lady but collies rarely are!!


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

In some ways your dog sound like our Lakeland X ,He is the most challenging(thats my polite word for him) dog i have ever know,he is hubbys dog,but its me that has him all day,he now does agility training and although he is still hyper at times he is alot better,it seems he now has focus if you have a club near you maybe a chat with them will help.


----------



## cdcclub (Jun 13, 2009)

Ok points one and two can be easily achieved by having her on a house line, I find with collies they love nothing more than being around humans 24/7 

If you have her beside you all the time you can pick up completely on her toileting habits and this will stop the accidents in the house. It can be a bit of a chore at times having your dog attached to you but trust me it is well worth it. This should also cut down on the chewing as you will be there to correct it.

the walking issues, when she begins to pull come to a complete stop or start walking in the opposite direction. from a very young age I taught my girl the Watch command where by when I said watch she had to be totally focused on me. I began this with treats holding it up by my face and gradually hiding the treat from view. I built up the time she had to wait till she got a treat. 

my girl now knows if I say watch that I want her complete attention as she assumes that she may either get a treat or some more exciting command or task to do or her favourite thing in the world a game of fetch with a tennis ball.

The watch command can come in very handy if you need her distracted when the become focused on anything else but yourself.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Collies can be tough but can alos be wonderful - I've had two would love another but the time and situation isn't right for us at the moment. Basically collies are incredibly intelligent and there is no reason that she can't do what you are asking. So back to basics. 

With the pulling this is what I did, I remember when my collie was 14 weeks old, one day she wouldn't stop pulling hard on the lead, so I just sat down. When she stopped pulling I got up and moved, when she pulled I sat down again. It took us 1/2 an hour to travel about 10 feet and then she was perfect for the rest of the walk. I'm sure I had to repeat the exercise a few times. But she learnt. It works because when you sit down you take away the reward of going forward. Simple.

Try walking her on a very long lead for the recall problem she gets to run you get the security of having her come back - again I remember with Jazz that when sh wouldn't come back as a pup I tended to run in the opposite direction calling her - never failed. I got the pup back, she thought it was great fun and coming to me meant a reward either the chase, being fussed, or a treat. I also trained her to a whistle as it was more piercing to her when head down sniffing than my voice. Very useful when she got too far ahead for me to shout too.

Keeping her close indoors sounds great for the chewing and weeing - I taught Jazz and Josh to pee on command ('empty') just by being around and watching them pee and saying the word at the same time. CHewing might indicate that she is bored - try a frozen Kong toy stuffed with treats. Try bitter Apple sprayed everywhere, get her teeeth checked out to make sure thy aren't worrying her. Weeing etc - basically you need to spot when she is about to go and with a 'no' and 'uhuh' (slight disapproval in voice) take her outside and fully encourage her. 

She is still young, still a pup and still needs to play - lots of games, lots of training exercises, when you walk her take a ball and a dog frisbee (boy, can collies jump!), talk to her all the time, carry very smelly treats with you, mke her your best friend and she will end up ready to die for you. When she is old enough get her along to agility classes, or fly ball, or take her along t mountain rescue and she if she can help there. 

Collies are dogs that can't be taken lightly but are an absolute joy and brilliant companions, but they are made to work and NEED to be stimulated or they act up. The only thing I never got my collies to do was bark on command - probably cos I taught 'quiet' first (silly me). You need to be one step ahead of your collie all the time - IT'S FUN, honest!


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

spid said:


> Collies can be tough but can alos be wonderful - I've had two would love another but the time and situation isn't right for us at the moment. Basically collies are incredibly intelligent and there is no reason that she can't do what you are asking. So back to basics.
> 
> With the pulling this is what I did, I remember when my collie was 14 weeks old, one day she wouldn't stop pulling hard on the lead, so I just sat down. When she stopped pulling I got up and moved, when she pulled I sat down again. It took us 1/2 an hour to travel about 10 feet and then she was perfect for the rest of the walk. I'm sure I had to repeat the exercise a few times. But she learnt. It works because when you sit down you take away the reward of going forward. Simple.
> 
> ...


Great post! I would add a note of caution about the Frisbee though - the dog in the OP is too young to be doing too much jumping at the moment...


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

spid said:


> Collies can be tough but can alos be wonderful - I've had two would love another but the time and situation isn't right for us at the moment. Basically collies are incredibly intelligent and there is no reason that she can't do what you are asking. So back to basics.
> 
> With the pulling this is what I did, I remember when my collie was 14 weeks old, one day she wouldn't stop pulling hard on the lead, so I just sat down. When she stopped pulling I got up and moved, when she pulled I sat down again. It took us 1/2 an hour to travel about 10 feet and then she was perfect for the rest of the walk. I'm sure I had to repeat the exercise a few times. But she learnt. It works because when you sit down you take away the reward of going forward. Simple.
> 
> ...


Dont want to sound negative but believe me i have tried EVERYTHING you have suggested time and time again. We always take a ball for walks but she now refuses to bring it back to me and drops it a good few yards away. If i dont throw it for her she rounds me up or runs after someone elses ball!! The training classes we went to were ok but spent a lot of time sitting around while each dog had its turn. I am going to try agility when she is older but worry if i cant get her trained now she would be no good in a class with other dogs. As for the lead attached to me inside for her wee's this only happens occasionaly so i dont know if its worth doing. Also she chews if i am not there - she has taken to lying by the back gate and chewing that much to hubbys annoyance!!


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

when Rusty was about 13 months old if i let him off lead he would just run and run,sometimes it took 3 hrs for him to come back near enough to get his lead back on,before this he had been great,so i got a 30ft lead and retrained him in recall,it took about a week,now he is really good,when hes off lead now i dont talk to him unless i want him on lead,he started agility a couple of months ago and we found a great trainer who would let him stay on lead at first,after half and hour he was so focused on the jumps etc he came off lead.it has taught him not only agility but also reinforced the obediance,
Hope things work out for you and your dog,


----------



## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Where did you get her from? Sounds to me like she's from working stock. She needs to be working, the poor do must be going out of her mind with boredome. Collies should never be bought from farms or unregistered breeders as a dog from generations of working animals will never be happy in home.


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

JSR said:


> Where did you get her from? Sounds to me like she's from working stock. She needs to be working, the poor do must be going out of her mind with boredome. Collies should never be bought from farms or unregistered breeders as a dog from generations of working animals will never be happy in home.


she wasn't from a farm but the owner did sell puppies to farmers. Unfortunately she is now in a family home so i have to do the best i can. My friend has a collie that came from a farm but does not have the same problems as me. Her dog is quite laid back!I got cassie because when we went to look at them she was the one who came to us and was quite lively. Her sister (who i really liked as she was black and white and fluffy-cassie is tri-coloured and short haired) would not come near us and was shy. Had been advised to go for the ones who have a bit of character!!but wish i had gone with my instinct now.


----------



## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

:laugh: Yeap afraid when it comes to high energy breeds definatley go for the quiet ones!!

Nevermind like you say she's home now and so many other working breeds are living in family homes it's not the end of the world, you just need to adapt to her. Agility is definatley going to be the route for her I'd say, it is a great fun activety and honestly your dog doesn't have to be the best behaved!!! I take my staffie x beagle to agility and she's pure evil!! She loves the one to one time and throws herself over the course..she's got no style and we'll never win but we have fun and that's all that matters. 

Get the kids involved at home, get some weaves set up in the garden (a few poles in the ground) and a few little jumps (small ones on grass shouldn't harm her young bones). Also games where they hide treats under plant pots and make her find them? Anything that will use her brain.


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2009)

JSR said:


> :laugh: Yeap afraid when it comes to high energy breeds definatley go for the quiet ones!!
> 
> Nevermind like you say she's home now and so many other working breeds are living in family homes it's not the end of the world, you just need to adapt to her. Agility is definatley going to be the route for her I'd say, it is a great fun activety and honestly your dog doesn't have to be the best behaved!!! I take my staffie x beagle to agility and she's pure evil!! She loves the one to one time and throws herself over the course..she's got no style and we'll never win but we have fun and that's all that matters.
> 
> Get the kids involved at home, get some weaves set up in the garden (a few poles in the ground) and a few little jumps (small ones on grass shouldn't harm her young bones). Also games where they hide treats under plant pots and make her find them? Anything that will use her brain.


HaHa, under plant pots, have you seen a determined Collie, the place would be wrecked
She'd be upending everything looking for it. :lol::lol:


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

JSR said:


> Where did you get her from? Sounds to me like she's from working stock. She needs to be working, the poor do must be going out of her mind with boredome. Collies should never be bought from farms or unregistered breeders as a dog from generations of working animals will never be happy in home.


*What a load of rubbish!!!!!! Utter garbage!!!!!*

A ridiculous statement to use. Especially if you go see agility comps, fly ball comps or obedience comps. Are they working there?

I got Dillon from a working farm, his generation have won trials up and down the country, the breeders took tow of the pups from the litter to work on their farm and my friend who has a farm took one to learn from his elderly dog.

Can you please explain why my dog will be bored?

Just becasue you "work" your dogs does not mean that anyone else can not own the same breed and provide a quality of life as good if not btter than you can. I agree a specif breed has it's own instincts but if you are a half decent dog owner you will recognise these instincts and interact wiotht he dog that allows it to use them in a way outsdie of a working environment. A dog works for their owner, their owner challenges the dog not the environment.

To say someone else is not providing a specific quality of life for their dog is downright rude unless you have witnessed their routine for a matter of weeks. Going by a post to make such an assessmet is unbelievably niave, obnoxious and disrespectful.

I'll no doubt get banned for this or told off but I am not bothered becasue I am not the one in the wrong here by making assumptions and accusations.

If you challenge your dog, find what motivates it and work on that then you can teach a dog of any breed to pretty much do what you want. At 8months of age the dog may just be pushing it's boundaries as it matures to see what it can get away with. The owner may not have tapped into the dogs motivational requirements yet. WE JUST DON'T KNOW from one post.

Try providing ideas to help prevent an owner goign out their mind and another dog ending up in the local rescue rather than stating utter codswallop.


----------



## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JSR said:


> :laugh: Yeap afraid when it comes to high energy breeds definatley go for the quiet ones!!
> 
> Nevermind like you say she's home now and so many other working breeds are living in family homes it's not the end of the world, you just need to adapt to her. Agility is definatley going to be the route for her I'd say, it is a great fun activety and honestly your dog doesn't have to be the best behaved!!! I take my staffie x beagle to agility and she's pure evil!! She loves the one to one time and throws herself over the course..she's got no style and we'll never win but we have fun and that's all that matters.
> 
> Get the kids involved at home, get some weaves set up in the garden (a few poles in the ground) and a few little jumps (small ones on grass shouldn't harm her young bones). Also games where they hide treats under plant pots and make her find them? Anything that will use her brain.





hutch6 said:


> *What a load of rubbish!!!!!! Utter garbage!!!!!*
> 
> A ridiculous statement to use. Especially if you go see agility comps, fly ball comps or obedience comps. Are they working there?
> 
> ...


I think she has provided ideas see above


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

christine c said:


> I think she has provided ideas see above


I guess only JSR can answer as to why these ideas were not put across first then without the unfounded nagative view.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

Maybe the rights or wrongs of working stock dogs going to family homes as pets should be started on another thread? I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in that discussion 

Deb - imvho, I think you need to re-evaluate your techniques and move away from things you have been trying recently... the longer you persist with techniques that are not working, the more disheartened you'll become and your dog/human relationship will also suffer. 

How about a big shake-up? Something fresh for you all to work on?... I would suggest Clicker training to address all your problems and also to stretch her mind on a daily basis. You'll love it, it takes a bit more thinking about (for you and the dog!) than some other forms of training but it is calm, gentle, positive and most importantly - it has a huge success rate and collies excell!

Because you are struggling with a few problems all at the same time, I would strongly recommend looking for a clicker trainer to set you off with the basics (or join a clicker class), rather than trying to do your own research and perhaps misinterperet some points. Best to get it right first time 

If you haven't tried clicker training then you'll start to see results really quickly - initially you can use the clicker to correct her current bad behaviour and in the future you'll be able to do more advanced work with her such as party tricks, heel work, obedience and IQ challenge stuff

x


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> *What a load of rubbish!!!!!! Utter garbage!!!!!*
> 
> A ridiculous statement to use. Especially if you go see agility comps, fly ball comps or obedience comps. Are they working there?
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with you,it often happens people get dogs that come from working stock and have problems with them,i know people involved in BC rescue and many are got as pups by people who do not realise how high energy many of them are,our Lakeland X comes from working stock and has been real hard work,hes not our 1st dog we have owned many dogs,but he has been the hardest to get through to,a very independent dog,as i said earlier hes now doing agility training and its changed him,i am sure he now sees it as his work,not only is his mind working but hes getting even more exercise,


----------



## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

I've started another thread on the pros and cons of owning dogs from working stock so that we don't hijack Deb's thread 
You can find it here... http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/48341-dogs-working-stock-do-they-make-good-pets.html#post764933


----------



## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> *What a load of rubbish!!!!!! Utter garbage!!!!!*
> 
> A ridiculous statement to use. Especially if you go see agility comps, fly ball comps or obedience comps. Are they working there?
> 
> ...


Wow calm down dear it's just a discussion on dogs not a life and death situation! Over react much? Deep breathing and a G&T often helps I find.

I only get my 'theories' from ummm around 20 years of being a trainer, and umm around 30 years of dog ownership BUT I could be wrong...it's not unknown. And if you'd bothered to read the thread properly you would have seen I was offering suggestions on how to help the OP with the dogs issues as well as debating with them about the error of working stock dogs being taken to inexperienced family homes. Also you may have noticed the word 'working' wasn't necessarily used in the context of a dog actually working (herding sheep, hunting etc) it is also used as a term of giving the dogs brain exercise. Sorry I maybe should be more simple in my writing and make it clear that a 'working' dog doesn't have to do the 'job' it was designed for but as it's brain is often geared towards having a project or purpose in life then give it any 'job' will give an outlet for that brain.

And as with life dogs are all different and sometimes 'working' dogs can and do adapt absolutely perfectly to a family home but as with the case of the OP this OFTEN doesn't happen and in MY experience as a trainer (and I'm sorry if you find this offensive or codswallop or whatever) working dogs do NOT make good family pets. It's certainly not aimed as an attack on the OP or her choice of pet it's a statement of fact as I have experienced and as the OP has experience fully enough. So may I suggest you get yourself a little fan and cool off before you cause yourself and injury? It's really not necessary to be so aggressive or over dramatic. :idea:


----------



## Deb (Jan 28, 2009)

alphadog said:


> Maybe the rights or wrongs of working stock dogs going to family homes as pets should be started on another thread? I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in that discussion
> 
> Deb - imvho, I think you need to re-evaluate your techniques and move away from things you have been trying recently... the longer you persist with techniques that are not working, the more disheartened you'll become and your dog/human relationship will also suffer.
> 
> ...


I actually bought a clicker/whistle yesterday! I practiced with the clicker last night in the back garden to get her used to it and she loved it (but she will normally do anything for a treat at home!!). Am at work the next 2 days so will wait until weekend before trying again as i don't trust hubby to do it properly (usually need to train him first!!) Haven't heard of clicker classes so will certainly look into that thanks.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

Deb said:


> I actually bought a clicker/whistle yesterday! I practiced with the clicker last night in the back garden to get her used to it and she loved it (but she will normally do anything for a treat at home!!). Am at work the next 2 days so will wait until weekend before trying again as i don't trust hubby to do it properly (usually need to train him first!!) Haven't heard of clicker classes so will certainly look into that thanks.


Yeah great!! Before you launch into it though, make sure you have all the basics in the bag; she needs to be properly conditioned to the clicker to get the best response.

If you get chance, pop out from work tomorrow and buy this book.... *Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor*, she pioneered clicker training (with captive dolphins initially) and she has a great way of explaining the 'art'.

Have a look on her website too Karen Pryor Clickertraining| dog training and cat training info, books, videos, events and for the clearest demo of clicker training I've seen in years have a good look through this trainer's videos YouTube - kikopup's Channel

Be inspired (but not daunted!) and enjoy x


----------



## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

Hiya, some very good advice already, thought I'd share this piece with you I wrote on another forum the other day re the Recall, I used to be in tears with Zach so I know exactly how you feel. I have only had time to read the first few replies on this thread so forgive me if this has already been sorted. I would tend to disagree with the using a harsh tone, yes I think this obviously works if you are very good with timing and a bit more experienced, but if you are already at this stage I personally would use a positive reinforcement method, as described below. Good luck 


As you all know we had many months of embarrassment involving either me chasing Zach for half an hour trying to get him back to me or else I'd do what everyone says and take the dreaded long line down, only for him to have tangled me, another dog, and their owner up in it and then I used to come home and cry to Dan about how he was never going to be trained :lol:

Anyway, I thought I'd share this with you all in case anyone else has a pup they feel will never be trained. This is probably most effective for dogs who aren't bothered about treats on walks (you guys have it easy!!!), you know the tearaway kind that want to play with everything they see 

Before I type it out, there are a couple other things that have helped me get to the mediocre stage before gaining 99% recall (that have all been suggested by members on here, thanks guys):-

-Run like the wind with your arms in the air shouting really high pitched "Zaaaach come!"

-In the house whenever something good is about to happen - his tea time, his treat time, his walkies etc, say the same thing "Zach come"

-Take him out with other well behaved dogs that always come back, and when he follows fuss him and treat for returning.

-In emergencies drop to the floor like you've died, or as if you have found something amazing in the grass

-Take him to the park and let him have lots of play when possible, then he wont be as obsessed with playing with other dogs every minute of the walk

Now, we taught the "this way" command in about 5 mins at a training class with a long line and it stuck immediately. Thats a good tool to have on a walk but still doesn't get him right back at your feet where you want him - only in the rough direction you are walking. I think if you are struggling you should teach this first.

So for the easy recall, which Dan and I figured out between us in about 5 mins down the park (and WISHED we had just thought of it sooner!)...

Buy 2 Kong tennis balls. They squeak, which makes them great toys as well as a loud noise for getting attention. Zach already loved chasing balls, so if your dog doesn't maybe you could introduce them at home and make them into a great game.

Starting in a quiet area at first, get ready to throw the ball so your dog is ready for a good chase. Then say, "Zach (name!), COME" and wave him towards you. You may have to run backwards to get him coming at first. When he arrives at your feet say goooood boy and grab his collar for a second, then throw the ball. Squeak the other ball to get his attention (you dont want to end up saying the command and having him ignore you, you will make matters worse), and again "Zach, COME" (hand motion, run backwards). When he gets to your feet grab his collar again, say "goood boy", he should drop the existing ball so its also teaching him to bring it back and not just leave it anywhere. Then throw again. So easy - the rule is do not throw until he has come to you and you have grabbed his collar.

Seriously that is so simple and now Zach responds to "Zach come" every time after months of hell lol.

Hope this helps someone out there!!


NB. Most trainers would strongly disagree with me, and say that you shouldn't let your dog off lead until they have 100% recall anyway, and I can see the sense in this, but this way worked for me


----------



## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

That's brill Louise! It's all about finding the method that works for you and your dog - trial and error  I'm chuffed for you, there's nothing nice about walking a dog in tears - you that is, not the dog!!

Clicker training a recal would be slightly different in that you would allow the dog to experiment with coming over to you in the house to see if he gets a click (which he does of course), then let him wander over to you again - click, treat and attach a name to the command, such as 'come'. Everytime he comes over to you the first few times you can repeat this. Then when he's in a different room, call him - 'rex come'. Now he should already know that 'come' is his cue to go over to you for the click and treat, so he'll be there in a shot. Next step garden, next step outdoors on a longish lead and so on 

And just like you, I like to take hold of his collar each time he does a recall, it's good preparation for when he needs to have his lead attached.


----------

