# My cat still has NOT had her kittens?



## nathan32 (Nov 22, 2013)

Hello everyone! first time poster here. I have a female cat who has been pregnant with a litter for some time now. I can see the kittens wriggling around and it has been like this for 2-3 weeks. She is HUGE i'm just worried that something is going wrong. She should have had them by now and i just want to know if there is anything that you can tell is wrong with her. Her mother was a british blue but i'm not sure what the father was (He was owned by someone else). She doesn't seem to be in pain or anything it's just strange she hasn't had them yet. My other female cat had kittens about 3 days ago and she had 5! she was noticeably pregnant however she was not as large as my other cat which is still pregnant. She is a stocky build unlike my other mother, She is always a friendly cat who loves cuddles so i can't tell that way. She does still eat and i can infact feel her kittens moving and they are clearly visible. How long until she will finally pop and have those kittens?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

What was the date of mating?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

nathan32 said:


> Her mother was a british blue but i'm not sure what the father was (He was owned by someone else). My other female cat had kittens about 3 days ago and she had 5!


So you are breeding moggies deliberately. Why?!?!?!?!
There are so many kittens in rescue and conveniently enough, your first cats babies should be ready just in time for Christmas if your selling them too young which most moggy breeders do and I bet you were hoping the other cats babies would be aswell. How *%<*$*^# irresponsible! :mad5:

If it's been more than 67 days since the mating a vet trip is in order, although cats can be as late as 72.

Hope your cat and her babies will be aright.


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## nathan32 (Nov 22, 2013)

> So you are breeding moggies deliberately. Why?!?!?!?!
> There are so many kittens in rescue and conveniently enough, your first cats babies should be ready just in time for Christmas if your selling them too young which most moggy breeders do and I bet you were hoping the other cats babies would be aswell. How *%<*$*^# irresponsible!


 Excuse me? I do not mean to be rude here but how dare you? I do not intend to sell the kittens they will be free to a good home when the are OF AGE. I did not deliberately breed her to some random male cat. She has the right to go outside and I admit it was partly my fault for not getting her fixed but I was not doing this for money and I am certainly not getting rid of the kittens when they are too young. How rude!.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You seem to have made the same mistake twice - not getting your cat spayed before she gets pregnant. Also please don't give them away - people who can only afford a free kitten can't afford to look after them if they get ill which sooner or later all cats do, just as all people do.

How early do you think they can leave? I think it's at 13 weeks, and fully vaccinated. Ideally neutered as well. That's another reason for not giving them away - it costs money to keep kittens until they are old enough to leave.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

nathan32 said:


> Excuse me? I do not mean to be rude here but how dare you? I do not intend to sell the kittens they will be free to a good home when the are OF AGE. I did not deliberately breed her to some random male cat. She has the right to go outside and I admit it was partly my fault for not getting her fixed but I was not doing this for money and I am certainly not getting rid of the kittens when they are too young. How rude!.


Free to a good home will likely mean they end up as bait, it is not recommended to give away animals for free unless you know who they are going to.

And what is of age? 
I see so many kittens for sale at 6 weeks, at this age, a fair few will not even be properly weaned.
Most people think 8 weeks is okay, but any responsible breeder will tell you that actually, they shouldn't leave until they are at least 12 weeks old.

She may have a right to go outside and I appreciate accidental matings do happen. 
HOWEVER, I think you should also consider how your post comes across.

You have two female cats, both crossbred or moggy, both pregnant. It is just a few weeks until Christmas and you were asking for advice as to when she will give birth.

Around this time hundreds of greedy, irresponsible people are busy breeding mongrels with the intention of selling the kittens at just 6 or 7 weeks old in time for the Christmas market, often for exorbitant figures.

Now, I am always willing to give advice, but on reading your post, rightly or wrongly, it DOES sound as if you deliberately bred mongrel cats to produce mongrel kittens to sell which is wrong.

As I said before, if it has been 67 days since the mating your cat needs to see a vet. But do bear in mind that anything up to 72 days can be normal and for the love of god, spay your cats! 
The two of them could be calling again when your kittens are just 6 weeks old.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

nathan32 said:


> Excuse me? I do not mean to be rude here but how dare you? I do not intend to sell the kittens they will be free to a good home when the are OF AGE. I did not deliberately breed her to some random male cat. She has the right to go outside and I admit it was partly my fault for not getting her fixed but I was not doing this for money and I am certainly not getting rid of the kittens when they are too young. How rude!.


In some ways "free to good home" is even worse - people look for adverts like this for kittens for dog baiting.

Yes you should of got her "fixed" - to forget to do one is irresponsible, not to neuter two is just unbelievable. I hope you are very rich as kittens cost a fortune to raise for 13 weeks which is the age they should leave mum.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm sorry but there is no excuse nowadays for this. If a cat escapes a household and is not spayed, any responsible owner would get straight to the vet and ensure they are done so immediately to prevent a pregnancy.

You now have 2 cats that are pregnant and are asking people for help as to when they will be born? Why don't you go to the vets and pay for a scan/check? Will the kittens be vet checked at all before leaving for their new homes?

I truly hope mums and kittens will be fine and they all have loving homes.

Loopyloro
x


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

nathan32 said:


> Excuse me? I do not mean to be rude here but how dare you? I do not intend to sell the kittens they will be free to a good home when the are OF AGE. I did not deliberately breed her to some random male cat. She has the right to go outside and* I admit it was partly my fault for not getting her fixed *but I was not doing this for money and I am certainly not getting rid of the kittens when they are too young. How rude!.


Not *partly*. *100% *which could have been entirely avoided.


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

Totally irresponsible. I'm not getting involved here


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## nathan32 (Nov 22, 2013)

> Free to a good home will likely mean they end up as bait, it is not recommended to give away animals for free unless you know who they are going to.
> 
> And what is of age?
> I see so many kittens for sale at 6 weeks, at this age, a fair few will not even be properly weaned.
> ...


I appreciate all your replies however i'm not sure where you all live where people use kittens for dog baiting. We don't do that here in New Zealand I have never heard of that here. And as for the price of keeping them until they are ready to be weaned off their mother and onto solids I do no mind that. I do not intend to just throw it at someone and say "here have a kitten" I will talk to them and insure they can handle the responsibilities before I gave them away.

As for your whole "Christmas market" Thing I do not and have never intended to breed so called "Mongrel kittens" and sell them close to a holiday for profit. You all changed the subject from my initial question and although you answered it I feel as though you are making it out like I am here to make a quick buck. I care for the well being of every living animal and in no way shape or form would do anything that would hurt them.

I posted this with the confidence that my question would be treated with respect and if I was just breeding the kittens for money and did not care for the health and well being of my cat why would I post here? You have made me feel like I have failed my pet and that I am some sort of cat drug dealer?. I don't know how things are where any of you live but I would never give away an animal life if I did not insure it's security.

If I were too sell it for money they could also be used as so called "Dog baiting" Which I have never heard of any cases here. I came here for an answer and as far as I know I got one. If I wanted to be judged as a pet owner i'd have gone to a vet and seen what they would say. All you have told me is that you will eventually get to your point after you have made the person making the post feel terrible. I consider how my post came across but you sir also need to think how yours came across. i love my pets and I am making sure they have the nutrients and requirements to keep both the mothe r and the kittens safe (As regards to my other mother) And intend to do the same for this mother. Before I give the kittens to a SAFE home I will not make the same mistake as I did with my other 2 mother cats and I will insure that they have had all the medical treatments they need to have. I will also make sure they are weaned off their mothers PROPERLY. As for having the mothers spayed I will insure they get the treatment they need.

On the "up" side of things that I respect you all for is the fact you were trying to insure my kittens safety and my cats safety too. However I do not think i will use this forums due to the disrespect that I feel. You are basically singling me out as a bad pet owner. None the less thank you for your time.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Not getting your cat spayed and allowing her to roam does make you a highly irresponsible pet owner. Sorry if the truth hurts. 

However you can only go forward from here and learn from your mistakes. By flouncing off the forum you will have accomplished nothing. If you stick around you might learn a thing or two. 

In any event the ones that have gotten the short end of the stick are the cats, not you.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

i liked your post and i do feel you care a lot about your cats i also think you come across as a very honest person and i admire that.

you certainly came to the right place for advice as there is a great bunch of caring knowledgeable people here, i hope you decide to continue to use the forum.

having gotten the should have would haves outta the way i hope we can help you with the original questions you ve asked.

in the uk we do have a very big problem with unwanted kittens as indeed most parts of the world, 
the only thing that i would say is- as long as you are fully prepared to care and look after the kitts for the rest of their lifes if no one else wants to then good luck and best wishes im not very experienced but i will help answer any questions i can


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

nathan32 said:


> I appreciate all your replies however i'm not sure where you all live where people use kittens for dog baiting. We don't do that here in New Zealand I have never heard of that here. And as for the price of keeping them until they are ready to be weaned off their mother and onto solids I do no mind that. I do not intend to just throw it at someone and say "here have a kitten" I will talk to them and insure they can handle the responsibilities before I gave them away.
> 
> As for your whole "Christmas market" Thing I do not and have never intended to breed so called "Mongrel kittens" and sell them close to a holiday for profit. You all changed the subject from my initial question and although you answered it I feel as though you are making it out like I am here to make a quick buck. I care for the well being of every living animal and in no way shape or form would do anything that would hurt them.
> 
> ...


Okay, first, I and most posters are from the UK. I assumed you were too.
I don't know what it is like in New Zealand, but I can tell you that here in England we have an ENORMOUS problem with illegal dog fighting and people do, sadly, buy free to a good home puppies and kittens to train fighting dogs.

The Christmas market, again, here in England, we have a HUGE problem with people breeding puppies and kittens (mongrels and badly bred purebreds) with no regard to the animals welfare. They sell the babies in time for Christmas, the majority of people who buy them dump them on the streets after just a few weeks, sometimes even kill them. Every January, all the rescue centres in England are full to bursting point with unwanted baby animals and a large proportion of these end up being put to sleep.

Armed with that information, I hope you can understand why all the posters on this thread went so wild?

As I say, I will always give advice and indeed, did answer your question but at the same time, knowing the situation in England your post did make me pretty furious!


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

LOOPYLORO said:


> I'm sorry but there is no excuse nowadays for this. If a cat escapes a household and is not spayed, any responsible owner would get straight to the vet and ensure they are done so immediately to prevent a pregnancy.
> 
> You now have 2 cats that are pregnant and are asking people for help as to when they will be born? Why don't you go to the vets and pay for a scan/check? Will the kittens be vet checked at all before leaving for their new homes?
> 
> ...


I am sorry to say this, but unfortunately there seems to be many cat owners like that. Our neighbours are nice friendly people with 3-4 cats. They seem running into a similar problem all over again. They just do not seem to consider paying for neutering of their cats - they take them to RSPCA for that purpose (or other charity). And if a charity cannot do it in time - a young queen goes out and gets pregnant. And my neighbours do not consider "killing the unborn creatures" (all this pro-life malarkey). I say to that - take responsibility and care for the ones that are born already but do not keep breeding the ones you cannot afford! There are quite a few entire toms and queens around where we live - you would not believe how cunning I have to be to save my little girl from getting out accidentally and being caught by a moggy. One of them was practically living in our garden for a while. When I called RSPCA and said there was a scruffy and probably homeless cat living in our garden and if they would consider at least spaying him (I am not rich enough to spay privately all the neighbouring toms!) - they asked what made me think the cat was homeless. And what do you think happened next? In a couple of months the moggy disappeared and I saw a tearful ad on a local newsboard - PLEASE HELP TO FIND OUR CAT! WE MISS HIM! And the photo of the same very cat and him being described as "a bit scruffy looking".


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

No matter where you live Nathan, you were irresponsible not to have your pets neutered. Instead you have allowed not one but TWO cats to have unplanned litters. You already have five kittens to home, and may have another five very soon.

I thought that there were quite strict cat ownership laws in New Zealand, because of the effects that cat predation has on the unique wildlife of your country - if I'm right (and I accept that I may not be) you have been doubly careless.

You may find getting good homes for your kittens is harder than you expect. If I were you I would contact an animal/cat rescue charity for advice on how to re-home in your country. It would be best if you were prepared to have your kittens vaccinated and then neutered early (many vets will neuter at 2-3 months), and 'sell' them for a price which will cover the cost of the vac/neutering. Kittens shouldn't leave mammy until 12/13 weeks, so this is do-able.

By doing this you will ensure that your cats go to people who are prepared to invest in the health of their kitten, and will also prevent your kittens from adding to the local cat population in the future. If you don't want your cats pregnant again very soon, please get them neutered now, and keep them in until they have been. Cats frequently get pregnant with a second litter while still nursing the first.

Hope that your cat is okay and has her litter soon - but if there is anything worrying about her behaviour, please go to a vet asap in case she is in difficulties. I am assuming that this is the first litter for both cats, and that they are quite young - if she is less than a year old or over five years, there is a higher chance she could have pregnancy complications - you do not want to risk losing her for a preventable cause.

Hoping for the best for you all.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

When was the cat mated? date / how many times and with what breed?

If her mum *was* a british shorthair then (can you possibly post a picture of her) as british kittens are Huge with big heads and she may need a C-section  And she may have mated a very big cat.  

How old is she? This can also impact on her ability to have the kittens, how many calls did she have before being mated? Again this can impact on her ability to give birth and prepare her body for birth and kitten rearing.

Cant add much more to what others wrote.

Oh for anyone wondering kittens can be neutered pretty much all over the world from 8-10weeks old now (and for many many many years) Quicker recovery, so no need to wait and avoid them escaping. Although I do wonder how all these cats escape when my own calling girls have never been outside so don't know it exists, and therefore have never tried to escape when in call...


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

nathan32 said:


> You are basically singling me out as a bad pet owner. None the less thank you for your time.


You aren't being singled out  Anyone that comes on the forum and mentions breeding moggies will get the same advice


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

. And as for the price of keeping them until they are ready to be weaned off their mother and onto solids I do no mind that.

Its not the cost of keeping them until they are weaned off mum that is expensive (although mum will need vast quantities of good wet food in order to produce milk) it is the cost of keeping them in food for the 8-9 weeks AFTER they are weaned. If your second cat also has five kittens you could be feeding 2 adults and 10 kittens in a very short space of time - and dont think because they are small they wont eat much lol


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

wicket said:


> . And as for the price of keeping them until they are ready to be weaned off their mother and onto solids I do no mind that.
> 
> Its not the cost of keeping them until they are weaned off mum that is expensive (although mum will need vast quantities of good wet food in order to produce milk) it is the cost of keeping them in food for the 8-9 weeks AFTER they are weaned. If your second cat also has five kittens you could be feeding 2 adults and 10 kittens in a very short space of time - *and dont think because they are small they wont eat much lol*


Absolutely! Just think of what it cost you to feed your teenaged son when he was growing faster than a bamboo forest! A bacon sandwich = 1/2 loaf and 1lb bacon; snack = 3 bags of crisps; breakfast = HUGE bowl of cereal and milk + toast + jam and butter + eggs sausage bacon and beans etc etc etc. And in between times they graze, like wildebeest. _And rapidly growing kittens work on the same locust-like principle - they are NEVER full. They eat, sleep, eat, play, eat -_ well, you get the idea . . .


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

nathan32 said:


> I appreciate all your replies however i'm not sure where you all live where people use kittens for dog baiting. We don't do that here in New Zealand I have never heard of that here.


Sadly it occurs all over the world, it's not common here in Aus but does happen.

Do you need help finding a vet to neuter the kittens before they leave? I can ask some breeder friends in NZ who may know a vet in your area that will ensure the cycle stops with these kittens.

One of my girls is currently 8 weeks along, her kittens have been moving for 2-3 weeks.
It's said movement it felt from 7 weeks, which you can use as rough guide for a due date, but I've always felt before that, but I know the mating dates and my girls spend lots of time sitting on my lap.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

nathan32 said:


> Hello everyone! first time poster here. I have a female cat who has been pregnant with a litter for some time now. I can see the kittens wriggling around and it has been like this for 2-3 weeks. She is HUGE i'm just worried that something is going wrong. She should have had them by now and i just want to know if there is anything that you can tell is wrong with her. Her mother was a british blue but i'm not sure what the father was (He was owned by someone else). She doesn't seem to be in pain or anything it's just strange she hasn't had them yet. My other female cat had kittens about 3 days ago and she had 5! she was noticeably pregnant however she was not as large as my other cat which is still pregnant. She is a stocky build unlike my other mother, She is always a friendly cat who loves cuddles so i can't tell that way. She does still eat and i can infact feel her kittens moving and they are clearly visible. How long until she will finally pop and have those kittens?


Hi and welcome to the forum, I would leave her 68 days from mating and if she doesn't have them by them then I would have a chat with the vet just in case she needs a c-section, if she does then be prepared to bottle feed them until Mum is well enough, hopefully she will have them naturally, your vet would be the best person to advise you. Good luck and hope all goes well. Sometimes those last couple of days seem like an eternity and we think the kittens are never going to arrive. Let us know how things go.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

You say "she has a right to go outside." Fine, but then you have a responsibility to make sure, when she does, she's not in heat and being mated by every random tom in the neighborhood. :frown2: I'm amazed at the people in this world who don't have money and/or time to have their pet neutered, but claim they will have all kinds of time and money to support all those little puppies and kittens when they arrive. 

Best get her to a vet if she's going well past what might seem a reasonable due date. The kittens could be very large, or there could only be one or two, which sometimes isn't enough to trigger labour, and she could need a C-section. Better safe than sorry. Good luck.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Good luck with the kittens Nathan, hope you find loving homes for them all
It is a shame that often as soon as someone new comes onto the forum to ask for some good advice that the OP immediately is jumped on for one thing or another, usually because their cats have not been spayed, 
I understand why it is being said, but too late, the cat is pregnant, would just be nice if advice was given for AFTER these kittens were born, re, mums being spayed, it would put me off coming back again, 
Everyone saying the same things over and over, i am sure Nathan has got the message,


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

i have liked both of your posts as they both have vital information in 


to the orginal poster....any news? best wishes for these kitts hope all is well


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm amazed at the people in this world who don't have money and/or time to have their pet neutered, but claim they will have all kinds of time and money to support all those little puppies and kittens when they arrive.


Do you know, those expenses are so normal to me as a breeder it's something I hadn't thought of in this context  It costs exponentially more than the cost of neutering to raise a litter of kittens.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> would just be nice if advice was given for AFTER these kittens were born, re, mums being spayed, it would put me off coming back again


This section is absolutely full of advice and help given following the birth of an accidental litter. I mean really stuffed to the gunnels with it!


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Yes i know their is lots of good advice, but is there really any need for the lectures, about what SHOULD have been done, and yes it would be good if people kept the kittens until 13 weeks old and have them vaccinated and early neutered, but most wont be able to afford it, and wont even be able to recoup the cost of it ,which i know they should maybe have thought of that before, but they didn't,and as much and however many times it is .rammned down their throat it wont happen, not saying its right or i agree, but it just wont happen , so just give them advice, they ask for, not lectures
This is an advice forum for pets, and it must put people off asking when they are bombarded ,not in a nice way with what they should have done and ,told,[ not advised ] what they should do


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

jaycee05 said:


> Yes i know their is lots of good advice, but is there really any need for the lectures, about what SHOULD have been done, and yes it would be good if people kept the kittens until 13 weeks old and have them vaccinated and early neutered, *but most wont be able to afford it*, *and wont even be able to recoup the cost of it* ,which i know they should maybe have thought of that before, but they didn't,and as much and however many times it is .rammned down their throat it wont happen, not saying its right or i agree, but it just wont happen , so just give them advice, they ask for, not lectures
> This is an advice forum for pets, and it must put people off asking when they are bombarded ,not in a nice way with what they should have done and ,told,[ not advised ] what they should do


Then they should spend £free-50 on neutering than having a litter of kittens and doing it PROPERLY. Don't care if they don't re-coup anything, good breeders don't either, cant afford to raise a litter of kittens properly then neuter your pets, IT IS NOT HARD.

And there are MANY lurkers here that don't post, they will also learn from this information and posting what to do BEFORE anything happens, just neuter your pet, I don't see how hard this is for people to grasp hold of. And if it is that hard for people to comprehend, then they shouldn't own a pet.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Breeders Do recoup the cost though, at least we are selling the kittens , ,so can get the cost of neutering back when the kittens are sold, someone with no money couldn't afford to have a litter of kittens neutered, so yes should have got the mum done before, but too late after the event to say that


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

it's perfectly acceptable to charge for moggies with all vet work done, some shelters also help out owners with lower vet costs and advertising the kittens.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Yes I agree its better to charge than give away, but the cost of neutering is so expensive, £58 -£85 is beyond what moggie buyers would pay, in general for a kitten, plus vaccination, so it just wont happen, 
Maybe in London ,but not here


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

My local vet charges £5 for a neuter or spay if the owner can prove they're on certain benefits. I think its backed up by Cats Protection or one of the other charities. My neighbour has cancer so just got hers done by them.

Just mentioning it in case useful.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Yes I agree its better to charge than give away, but the cost of neutering is so expensive, £58 -£85 is beyond what moggie buyers would pay


A touch confused. Are you saying it's acceptable to give kittens away in the full knowledge the new owner won't pay to have them neutered?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

jaycee05 said:


> Yes I agree its better to charge than give away, but the cost of neutering is so expensive, £58 -£85 is beyond what moggie buyers would pay, in general for a kitten, plus vaccination, so it just wont happen,
> Maybe in London ,but not here


But if an owner cannot provide basic services for a cat, then they really shouldn't have one at all. A moggie and a pedigree all need the same things, and if someone wants to actually provide, then they will find a way.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> Yes I agree its better to charge than give away, *but the cost of neutering is so expensive, £58 -£85 is beyond what moggie buyers would pay, in general for a kitten, plus vaccination, so it just wont happen*,
> Maybe in London ,but not here


Can I ask why you say it will never happen .Why does it have to be that a moggy kitten should not have the same basic care as a pedigree ?
Regardless of whether the kitten comes vaccinated and neutered or the buyer pays to have this done after they have taken it home ,it is still going to cost them to have it done.
Personally I would much rather pay for a vaccinated neutered kitten than have to get this done afterwards.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> A touch confused. Are you saying it's acceptable to give kittens away in the full knowledge the new owner won't pay to have them neutered?


No of course not, I am saying its better to charge something,rather than give kittens away, but most moggie buyers wont pay the cost of neutering plus vaccination, so if moggies were advertised at say £150 to cover cost of neutering and vaccination they wouldn't pay it, a lot of moggie owners have moggies because they cant afford a pedigree cat
Not saying either that they should be treated any differently to pedigrees, but anyone selling a kitten form an oops litter most likely cant afford that cost several times over,


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

buffie said:


> Can I ask why you say it will never happen .Why does it have to be that a moggy kitten should not have the same basic care as a pedigree ?
> Regardless of whether the kitten comes vaccinated and neutered or the buyer pays to have this done after they have taken it home ,it is still going to cost them to have it done.
> Personally I would much rather pay for a vaccinated neutered kitten than have to get this done afterwards.


Of course it should still be done, but the new kitten owner will have the cost of neutering and vaccination of the kitten, not the seller
As already said in last post NO I DO NOT THINK MOGGIES SHOULD BE TREATED ANY DIFFERENTLY TO PEDIGREES but the situations are different
Pedigree breeders are paid much more for the kittens they breed, so have the money coming to cover the costs
When I get a deposit for my kittens it pays for vaccinations, I don't neuter 
Any clearer now


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If one can't save up £400 for a pedigree what will happen when there's an unexpected £400 vet bill for a moggie? If one can't afford a pedigree I suggest one can't afford a cat. They cost the same to neuter, chip, vaccinate, feed, worm and deflea.

Note I am NOT saying everyone should get pedigrees, I'm simply trying to clarify the economics.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Jannor said:


> My local vet charges £5 for a neuter or spay if the owner can prove they're on certain benefits. I think its backed up by Cats Protection or one of the other charities. My neighbour has cancer so just got hers done by them.
> 
> Just mentioning it in case useful.


That is really good, the only way that usually happens is if the RSPCA or CP help out


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> If one can't save up £400 for a pedigree what will happen when there's an unexpected £400 vet bill for a moggie? If one can't afford a pedigree I suggest one can't afford a cat. They cost the same to neuter, chip, vaccinate, feed, worm and deflea.
> 
> Note I am NOT saying everyone should get pedigrees, I'm simply trying to clarify the economics.


I agree in one way, but sometimes people just want a pet, and will usually find a way to pay vet bills
So are you saying if they cant afford a pedigree cat they cant afford a moggie,in that case all moggies would be homeless
It is the initial outlay that is the most expensive to start with,,and usually people will have the vaccinations done, then save up for neutering
I had moggies before ever I had pedigrees, when I couldn't afford a pedigree, they were always neutered and vaccinated, but couldn't have paid for both together at that time
I would still have a moggie if one came along that needed a home
Im not a pedigree snob,


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> *Of course it should still be done, but the new kitten owner will have the cost of neutering and vaccination of the kitten, not the seller*As already said in last post *NO I DO NOT THINK MOGGIES SHOULD BE TREATED ANY DIFFERENTLY TO PEDIGREES *but the situations are different Pedigree breeders are paid much more for the kittens they breed, so have the money coming to cover the costs
> When I get a deposit for my kittens it pays for vaccinations, I don't neuter
> Any clearer now


 What is the difference between the buyer of the kitten paying for vaccination+neutering before they get the kitten or paying for it after they get it.Either way it is costing them to have it done .
The only difference I can see is it makes vac/neutering optional to the new owner which is not good.

Looks like your caps lock jammed


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

No caps locked DIDNT jam, what I am trying to say is that whoever buys the moggie kitten, can have the vaccinations done, then a couple of months later, have the kitten neutered, which isn't paying out all at once , and can spread the cost, there are not a lot of cats where I live that wander, and the ones I have seen are neutered, 
Not all moggie owners are irresponsible, and not fair to tar them all with the same brush, 
Do you know of anyone who sells moggies vaccinated and neutered, NO I don't think so
Anyway ending this conversation now, as some people don't seem to get it


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> No caps locked DIDNT jam, what I am trying to say is that whoever buys the moggie kitten, can have the vaccinations done, then a couple of months later, have the kitten neutered, which isn't paying out all at once , and can spread the cost, there are not a lot of cats where I live that wander, and the ones I have seen are neutered,
> Not all moggie owners are irresponsible, and not fair to tar them all with the same brush,
> Do you know of anyone who sells moggies vaccinated and neutered, NO I don't think so
> Anyway ending this conversation now, *as some people don't seem to get it *


Now that is something we can agree on


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> No caps locked DIDNT jam, what I am trying to say is that whoever buys the moggie kitten, can have the vaccinations done, then a couple of months later, have the kitten neutered, which isn't paying out all at once , and can spread the cost, there are not a lot of cats where I live that wander, and the ones I have seen are neutered,
> Not all moggie owners are irresponsible, and not fair to tar them all with the same brush,
> Do you know of anyone who sells moggies vaccinated and neutered, NO I don't think so
> Anyway ending this conversation now, as some people don't seem to get it


I sort of agree, I have a friend who is disabled and can't work, she lives in a small ground floor flat. She took on a free to good home kitten to keep her company, he's now about 4 and she always keep his vaccinations up to date and he was neutered before being allowed outside. She gets help from the PDSA (I think). He has a good life with her and I don't begrudge people like this a pet just because she would have struggled to find £400 for a pedigree, she lives alone and would be desperately lonely without him. She took out insurance on him as well when he started going outside, I remember because I helped her go through all the small print for every insurance company we could find, took ages!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> No caps locked DIDNT jam, what I am trying to say is that whoever buys the moggie kitten, can have the vaccinations done, then a couple of months later, have the kitten neutered, which isn't paying out all at once , and _can spread the cost_, there are not a lot of cats where I live that wander, and the ones I have seen are neutered,
> Not all moggie owners are irresponsible, and not fair to tar them all with the same brush,
> Do you know of anyone who sells moggies vaccinated and neutered, NO I don't think so
> Anyway ending this conversation now, as some people don't seem to get it


The best way to spread the cost is to save before getting the kitten.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> I agree in one way, but sometimes people just want a pet, and will usually find a way to pay vet bills
> So are you saying if they cant afford a pedigree cat they cant afford a moggie,in that case all moggies would be homeless
> It is the initial outlay that is the most expensive to start with,,and usually people will have the vaccinations done, then save up for neutering
> I had moggies before ever I had pedigrees, when I couldn't afford a pedigree, they were always neutered and vaccinated, but couldn't have paid for both together at that time
> ...


I am saying that people who can't save can't afford a cat, moggie or pedigree.

The initial outlay is not something that is forced on anyone - no-one is required to have a cat - and saving up for neutering once one has the kitten can often be too late to prevent an unplanned pregnancy.


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

I have had moggies and pedigrees (still do) and, apart from the initial cost of the pedigree, both have exactly the same amount of money/time/resources available for their care, neutering, vaccinations, insurance, food etc. The difference has always stopped the minute I paid the purchase price. 

Not sure what point I'm trying to make here  but it's along the lines of a responsible owner will be responsible whether they have a pedigree or moggy, as will an irresponsible owner. I guess it's more likely that the irresponsible ones will have moggies because they are easier to come by for a substantially lower cost in the first place.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

This is the last thing I am saying on the subject, don't tar all moggie owners with the same brush, as all being irresponsible, even some pedigree owners don't look after their cats as they should


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## Catloverbearsden (Aug 20, 2013)

My two cats are "moggies" and I love them dearly. I got them from the CPL and paid a basic fee to cover microchipping, etc but had to neuter after. I got this done ASAP and they are both fully insured, have 6 monthly check ups and are full up to date with flea and worming treatments.

I did not want to get a pedigree as there are too many gorgeous cats/kittens that need good homes.

But perhaps I am an exception to so called "moggie" owners.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Catloverbearsden said:


> But perhaps I am an exception to so called "moggie" owners.


I haven't the read the whole thread so apologies if I'm missing the context but why do you say you are perhaps an 'exception'?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Catloverbearsden said:


> My two cats are "moggies" and I love them dearly. I got them from the CPL and paid a basic fee to cover microchipping, etc but had to neuter after. I got this done ASAP and they are both fully insured, have 6 monthly check ups and are full up to date with flea and worming treatments.
> 
> I did not want to get a pedigree as there are too many gorgeous cats/kittens that need good homes.
> *
> But perhaps I am an exception to so called "moggie" owners.*


Don't think so - we've always had moggies and they have always been vacc'd and neutered. I think most people are responsible owners who want to do the best for their pets, and realise that this is the only responsible way to go.

I think the problem is that so many of the first-time cat related posts on here seem to concern "unexpected" pregnancies, that is gives a skewed picture. People just don't get in touch until they have a problem, then they just want a quick fix and often aren't prepared to accept that they are in the wrong.

Whilst it's pointless castigating someone for not neutering, and then letting their cat out I have to admit that there are some people I would like to shake until their teeth rattle for their sheer arrogant stupidity!

We have to put the welfare of the animals first, and give what advice we can - sometimes they just want a 'cheap' fix - for instance, if I was the OP, and I had a cat well over due date, I would be at the vet with her - in fact she wouldn't have gone so long. This annoys me - people who would rather put their pet at risk than shell out fifty quid (which is probably what they would spend on a night out).

( Now I can't remember what I started to say - so I'm posting this half-baked thread in the hope that someone clairvoyent will know what I'm getting at! :frown2


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## cinder (Jun 2, 2013)

I believe that someone has brought it up already in this thread (I think it may have been you, Lostbear), but what makes me so uncomfortable about this thread is that the OP is in New Zealand. 

In the UK the argument for avoiding accidental pregnancies often relates to the already massive cat population, and the fact that there are so many cats and kittens in shelters who need loving homes. A quick Google will tell you that the New Zealand authorities have asked their citizens not to replace their cats after their death, as they have a serious issue with cats killing the local wildlife. 

I understand how frustrating it must be to read about yet another owner who has let their unsprayed female roam, but I think that the OP's actions have far more serious implications on their local habitat and that for me is the real issue here.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cinder said:


> I believe that someone has brought it up already in this thread (I think it may have been you, Lostbear), but what makes me so uncomfortable about this thread is that the OP is in New Zealand.
> 
> In the UK the argument for avoiding accidental pregnancies often relates to the already massive cat population, and the fact that there are so many cats and kittens in shelters who need loving homes. A quick Google will tell you that the New Zealand authorities have asked their citizens not to replace their cats after their death, as they have a serious issue with cats killing the local wildlife.
> 
> I understand how frustrating it must be to read about yet another owner who has let their unsprayed female roam, but I think that the OP's actions have far more serious implications on their local habitat and that for me is the real issue here.


Thank you, Cinder - I thought that there were problems in NZ regarding cats, but had no idea that the authorities had had to make such a far-reaching request.

When push comes to shove, it is irresponsible not to neuter, full-stop.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

The only cat laws in NZ are some councils putting limits (usually 3) on the amount you can own, there was an article some months ago with the author not wanting people to replace cats once passed, it was not written by any lawmaker.
It's recommended cats be kept indoor, especially overnight but there is no law


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> there was an article some months ago with the author not wanting people to replace cats once passed, it was not written by any lawmaker.


There you go again, there's always someone hell bent on spoiling a good story with the facts


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## cinder (Jun 2, 2013)

Ha ha, havoc, very true! Still, that'll teach me to paraphrase Wikipedia. I actually read it a few days ago when this thread kicked off, and on re-reading it looks like it was a sanctuary that suggested no replacing pets rather than a government department.



spotty cats said:


> The only cat laws in NZ are some councils putting limits (usually 3) on the amount you can own, there was an article some months ago with the author not wanting people to replace cats once passed, it was not written by any lawmaker.
> It's recommended cats be kept indoor, especially overnight but there is no law


Thanks for the clarification spotty cats, although I did get that it wasn't law, just a suggestion. Like 'here are some ways you can reduce your water consumption' vs. a hose pipe ban. It's interesting that the decision is at council level, I guess those in urban areas are less likely to have any restrictions imposed?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

cinder said:


> It's interesting that the decision is at council level, I guess those in urban areas are less likely to have any restrictions imposed?


Some laws are state imposed (like microchipping and neutering), and then the city council area you live in can have additional regulations that must be followed. 
Doesn't matter where you live, country areas can have the same rules as city.


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## rodeomom (Sep 5, 2015)

jaycee05 said:


> That is really good, the only way that usually happens is if the RSPCA or CP help out


Some of you are total jerks. "Mongrel" cats are awesome. I grew up with cats and i guess y'all would call all of them mongrels. Cats don't have to be pure bred to be loved. We have a gray tabby short hair that adopted us. She was pregnant when she came to us. I had to deliver one of her kittens. He was coming tail first instead of head first. She kept trying to have him but after a few minutes I realized she couldn't. I grew up on a farm and helped my parents deliver some calves so I knew what to do. I will never pay for a cat unless I someday finally get a Maine Coon. I am a CAT LOVER. I have always said that if I was rich and an old maid I would have hundreds of cats and leave all my money to my cats when I died. There is nothing wrong with giving kittens away for free. We gave Gypsy' s away and had her spayed. Even spayed she doesn't get outside. She is a pampered imp who loves to lick my face and nibble my fingers to wake me up in the morning. She hunts under the cover for my head. I sure hope I am never on trial and have y'all on my jury. Talk about judgemental.


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## Latekin (Jun 29, 2015)

Ok, dude, nobody is saying moggies are bad. Many of the people on this forum, including some of the purebreed breeders, have had or do have moggies. They are also cat lovers. And as cat lovers, they get mad as hell when people are acting irresponsibly with their cats! Letting an unspayed cat roam is irresponsible. You need to own that and admit you screwed the pooch on this one. Nobody is saying "down with moggies and crossbreeds," the problem is moggies are already vastly overbred. Yes, even in New Zealand. I live in Australia. We have way too many moggie cats here being exterminated because they can't find a home or they've gone feral. That's a universal fact. You're not exempt from this because you live in New Zealand, it's happening there too.

As for the free kitten thing? It's a terrible idea because it will increase the chance of your kitten being used as dog fighting bait. Sorry, but it does happen in New Zealand, check out this one from 2009: 



Someone's dog got stolen from their home in Wellington and used for a bait animal. Just because it's not something you hear about often doesn't mean it's not happening. It happens here in Australia too - but the reason illegal things like this continue to go on is because *they are very well hidden from public view. *Google New Zealand dog fighting - that's not the only hit by far.

As for the problem you posted about - *SEE YOUR VET. *They are the only person qualified to give you advice on whether or not your cat is in trouble or should have given birth by now. The people here can advise you, or give you suggestions, but they don't know your cat's medical details. Your vet does.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Latekin said:


> As for the problem you posted about - *SEE YOUR VET. *They are the only person qualified to give you advice on whether or not your cat is in trouble or should have given birth by now. The people here can advise you, or give you suggestions, but they don't know your cat's medical details. Your vet does.


Thread is from 2013, hopefully the OP's cats are all spayed by now


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## Latekin (Jun 29, 2015)

Oh, my bad. XD It popped up on recent activities for me. Well I feel like a bit of an idiot.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It popped up because a new member decided to have a rant on an old thread in their first post.


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## Latekin (Jun 29, 2015)

Wow, ok, I thought that was the OP. Similar writing style and all. What a lovely rant that was.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Latekin said:


> Oh, my bad. XD It popped up on recent activities for me. Well I feel like a bit of an idiot.


This happens to me all the time! Sometimes I feel like a Zombiethreadmeister.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It was a spectacular rant of a first post. It's a shame that threads that have been inactive for (say) 3 months don't automatically close.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

What is bizarre about that rant is that the quote of Jaycee05 was from a completely different thread:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/hes-pinning-her-down.264891/#post-1062313613


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## AmsMam (Nov 25, 2014)

No, it was from this thread, although last on a page so easy to miss if you're not looking for something to get on your soapbox about.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...had-her-kittens.337248/page-2#post-1063383526

If we can't have threads auto-close after a set time (which is a great idea) then at least a banner warning it is an older post might be useful for those who come in thinking it is a new question.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

So it is, and I thought I had searched for it!


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## mzkageG (Oct 4, 2018)

nathan32 said:


> Hello everyone! first time poster here. I have a female cat who has been pregnant with a litter for some time now. I can see the kittens wriggling around and it has been like this for 2-3 weeks. She is HUGE i'm just worried that something is going wrong. She should have had them by now and i just want to know if there is anything that you can tell is wrong with her. Her mother was a british blue but i'm not sure what the father was (He was owned by someone else). She doesn't seem to be in pain or anything it's just strange she hasn't had them yet. My other female cat had kittens about 3 days ago and she had 5! she was noticeably pregnant however she was not as large as my other cat which is still pregnant. She is a stocky build unlike my other mother, She is always a friendly cat who loves cuddles so i can't tell that way. She does still eat and i can infact feel her kittens moving and they are clearly visible. How long until she will finally pop and have those kittens?


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## mzkageG (Oct 4, 2018)

hi I am wondering the same thing with my cat, why so many haters on this thread? geez we only searching help for the sake of our furry family members and what a bunch of (I'm guessing)snobby trolls. I live in NZ and omg such rudeness. Anyway to help try answer the question from conception date it should be 60-65 days, I would take her to vet any longer, my cats coming up 62 days so I am trying to plan my vet appointment if she doesn't give birth. Just in case she's my 1st female cat I've had that's having kittens and she's a sliver tabby lol yes a domestic sliver tabby not a pure breed anything Anyway I hope all the complaining people realize all cats are the same in the end lol a pet to love and invite to be part of your family.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

mzkageG said:


> hi I am wondering the same thing with my cat, why so many haters on this thread? geez we only searching help for the sake of our furry family members and what a bunch of (I'm guessing)snobby trolls. I live in NZ and omg such rudeness. Anyway to help try answer the question from conception date it should be 60-65 days, I would take her to vet any longer, my cats coming up 62 days so I am trying to plan my vet appointment if she doesn't give birth. Just in case she's my 1st female cat I've had that's having kittens and she's a sliver tabby lol yes a domestic sliver tabby not a pure breed anything Anyway I hope all the complaining people realize all cats are the same in the end lol a pet to love and invite to be part of your family.


Not trolls, just caring people who care about the fact that people irresponsibly allow their cats to breed instead of having them spayed.

This thread is 5 years old but the point remains..

Pity you didn't have your poor cat spayed.


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