# Advice on etiquette



## FinnCat (Aug 25, 2013)

Hello

I would like to ask advice on a tricky situation regarding buying a kitten from the UK. The kitten is coming to Finland, and would be collected in person from the UK as this is the best was of ensuring safe and the least stressful transport.

We have agreed (in writing, but no money has been exchanged) on the purchase of a kitten from a highly experienced and recommended breeder in the UK. The collection was arranged, with flights and hotels booked and paid. No refunds available. 

Despite agreeing dates for vaccinations, the breeder's vet failed to give the rabies vaccination on the correct date so the kitten cannot be collected on the date arranged so new flights have to be booked and paid for. The rules here in Finland on import without the rabies vaccination - even if just a few days late - are extremely strict and we have taken advice from vets here on this. 

Now my question is - who, in your opinion, should pay for the flight/delivery of the kitten ? Here in Finland it is very clear it should be paid by the breeder as the breeder has broken the agreement - even if not deliberatley. However this may not be the case under UK law. 

So I would appreciate your responses on this. Personally, I would expect the breeder to fund transportation (we can manage this at about 400) and then claim off the vet who is currently not admitting fault, but it is very clear it is not the breeder's fault this has occurred. She was not herself able to deal with the vet on the date when the vaccinations were due and that is where the problems arose.

This is an unhappy situation and we are trying to resolve it with the least conflict and misunderstanding.

Thank you in advance for your responses.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm unclear how this is the vet's fault - the breeder should have made sure rabies was given at 12 weeks no earlier?


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

FinnCat said:


> Hello
> 
> I would like to ask advice on a tricky situation regarding buying a kitten from the UK. The kitten is coming to Finland, and would be collected in person from the UK as this is the best was of ensuring safe and the least stressful transport.
> 
> ...


Hello and welcome to the forum. 

What exactly does the written contract that you have with the breeder state? Why was such a critical part of the kitten's travel neglected and who's fault was it?

This is just for my own curiosity as I've had kittens air shipped to me. Are they allowed to fly with you in the cabin? If not I don't see why you have to make a trip to the UK personally. I doesn't seem as common to air ship in the UK as I've learned from these forums.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## FinnCat (Aug 25, 2013)

Thank you for your responses.

As I understand it, the breeder and vet agreed dates on the basis of which flights were sorted. The vet then renegade on this and refused to give the vaccination. Unfortunately the breeder was not present at this appointment. 

To me it is clear the blame lies here with the vet and breeder, but the breeder is not willing to pay for a new flight for collection of the kitten. Sadly the contract did not cover this sort of eventuality.

Transporting the kitten 'in the hold' is more expensive than using Finnair who charge only 60 for the kitten to accompany a passenger in the cabin. So if there is a cheap ticket available, this is the most economical way to do it. And better for the cat, we think.

Many thanks.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I use a transport company for importing and also explain things very clearly with a spreadsheet to the breeders with dates on which things should happen and we mark them off as we go, I don't expect the breeders to know my countries strict import rules until I've explained things to them.
The transport company also makes sure things are done correctly, peace of mind for me to ensure the animal is permitted entry. 

Things don't always go to plan for whatever reasons, I don't see how this is the vets fault? Or why she/he should pay for anything. If the breeder couldn't attend she should have made it clear to whomever took them to the vets. 
Flights are not confirmed until we know all the vet work and paperwork is on track.

Flights for people can usually be postponed for a fee, so you're not paying full price again. 
I send my kittens in cargo as they're not allowed on board here and swapping flights doesn't incur any additional fees.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

So for whatever reason the kitten didn't get the rabies jab on exactly the expected day. Presumably it did very soon after. Are you saying you had booked everything in advance to collect this kitten on the very first available date? Who doesn't leave a bit of wiggle room? Why did you book so far in advance? As I understand it you need to leave a minimum of 21 days from vaccination to import. Surely the time to book a flight is when the breeder contacts you to say all vaccinations are done, all requirements are met so you're good to go three weeks hence.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> This is just for my own curiosity as I've had kittens air shipped to me. Are they allowed to fly with you in the cabin? If not I don't see why you have to make a trip to the UK personally. I doesn't seem as common to air ship in the UK as I've learned from these forums.


It isn't common here because we are a tiny island so people drive to collect. No breeder here would sell a kitten to someone they didn't get to meet. This is the custom because - well because we can. The only time a kitten would travel by air is because it's leaving the country and we do usually still expect them to be collected in person. It's far easier for the buyer to deal with import regulations in their own country, in their own language. The only time I've known a breeder who shipped an unaccompanied kitten abroad it was to someone they had already met. What isn't normal is to set everything in stone so far ahead. Anything can happen, not necessarily anything to do with the kitten. I've once had to postpone vaccinations by 24 hours because of a bad accident which closed the road so I couldn't get to the vets for a booked appointment.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I do understand the point about travel arrangements as often tickets aren't transferable/refundable - though it was a little unwise to leave yourself no room for manoeuvre.

In my opinion the responsibility lies completely with the breeder to ensure that everything was completed in time - especially as s/he presumably knew the date for travel. I have known a few instances of breeders with no experience of sending kittens outside of the UK who have relied upon the vet who is issuing the pet passport, etc, to guide them. In that scenario, if things go wrong, they may well blame the vet...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Even within the UK I tell my buyers the earliest date a kitten could be available but that it could slip for a myriad of reasons. If the buyer here has evidence the breeder gave a definite date for pick up then yes, it's the 'fault' of the breeder. However, as no money has changed hands there is no contract. Even when there is, consequential loss is usually excluded eg you travel to town to find the play you're going to see has been cancelled. You only get the price of your ticket refunded, not your travel costs.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Difficult one because I think we all know that if you do decide to ask for a refund for the tickets, you'll be souring the relationship between the breeder and yourself and she/he might probably cancel the order. 

I guess if I were the breeder, I would have offered but it also depends how much he/she is charging you. I was recently looking for a cat from the UK too and breeding price for import cats is A LOT higher than the UK breeding price (even if it's the exact same cat). If this is the case, I would assume the breeder would have plenty of leeway to offer to pay for your flight. If she charges you the normal price, I would assume she wouldn't have a few hundred euros extra to pay for the flight. No matter what, I think not offering is not polite and if you DID ask, it wouldn't be nice either so it's a bit of a funny situation. Sorry, can't help (but this exact scenario is one of the many I've played in my mind since I will also be importing a kitten from abroad).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If the buyer and seller really want to keep things amicable then I'd suggest they each pay half. There is no case against the vet that I can think of and if there is then all he has to do is state that in his professional opinion it would have been unwise to vaccinate that kitten on that day. 

There is no case against the breeder as there is no contract. The current situation is that the breeder owns a kitten which the buyer wishes to buy.

I hope everyone reading this thread is learning from it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I was recently looking for a cat from the UK too and breeding price for import cats is A LOT higher than the UK breeding price (even if it's the exact same cat).


All extra expenses involved in exporting the kitten are added to the normal cost of a kitten. Even if the buyer arranges collection there are still the costs of a rabies jab, vet expenses, extra time and running around etc. to be met. The one time I've done it I picked up the buyer at the airport and drove her back there with the kitten, a total of around 340 miles. She quite rightly met my out of pocket expenses. I'm cheaper than a taxi


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> This is just for my own curiosity as I've had kittens air shipped to me. Are they allowed to fly with you in the cabin? If not I don't see why you have to make a trip to the UK personally. I doesn't seem as common to air ship in the UK as I've learned from these forums.


I have a friend who has had a kitten in the cabin when flying from UK to Finland. My German import was also allowed into the cabin (and even out of her carrier box).


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

havoc said:


> All extra expenses involved in exporting the kitten are added to the normal cost of a kitten. Even if the buyer arranges collection there are still the costs of a rabies jab, vet expenses, extra time and running around etc. to be met. The one time I've done it I picked up the buyer at the airport and drove her back there with the kitten, a total of around 340 miles. She quite rightly met my out of pocket expenses. I'm cheaper than a taxi


I understand that but I have been quoted prices which are FAR beyond just the cost of taxi, additional vet expenses etc So in that case, I would assume the breeder would have enough leeway to finance the expense of the cancelled flight since it was an mistake of the breeder's (for not checking etc.) and because I would assume emergency costs like these are exactly why the import prices are so inflated. Of course buyer should have been a little more careful in terms of picking the kitten up a few days then the first available date but technically, if the breeder had given the date of delivery as X, buyer has no reason to not expect for it to not be available on that date.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The stuff associated with exporting a cat could well mean my taking unpaid time off work, which would cost me a lot. Might be part of why exported kittens are so expensive. I have heard it cost some people I know some £4k to import a stud what with all their expenses plus the transport for the cat plus buying him.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> if the breeder had given the date of delivery as X, buyer has no reason to not expect for it to not be available on that date.


That's what I'd call a triumph of hope over sensible expectation  There's no guarantee of a kitten travelling on a given day until it's on the plane and that plane is in the air. There is no 'delivery' as such. There's a kitten visit booked which may lead to the breeder selling the kitten to the buyer.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

To be brutely honest and i know this doesnt help the situation but i wouldnt have booked, flights/hotels etc until after the rabies vaccine had already been done and the kitten was actually ready for transport.

Other than this, i have no idea of who's fault, who should pay what, so im not very helpful.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

catcoonz said:


> To be brutely honest and i know this doesnt help the situation but i wouldnt have booked, flights/hotels etc until after the rabies vaccine had already been done and the kitten was actually ready for transport.
> 
> Other than this, i have no idea of who's fault, who should pay what, so im not very helpful.


Yes, a case of penny-wise, pound foolish I guess. Buying a ticket 3 weeks or less before the actual date is usually twice as expensive (sometimes more, depending on the airline).

I guess this thread is somewhat helpful for me. I'll be able to plan my pick-up better


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I've only paid standard breeding price for the cats, as have others including imports from the UK. Extra vet fees are paid by the buyer.

What bumps the price up is the flight and quarantine, would be nice if it could be done for as little as 4,000 pounds. The breeders haven't charged for the vet visits or taking the cat to the airport, it's the same here, I don't charge for taking kittens to the airport I just do it in my own time or leave work and call it a lunch break.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It's a bit confusing as you have to assume that the breeder (who apparently couldn't attend on the day the kitten was to have received a rabies shot) would have immediately checked, on the same day, the kitten's vac card or pet passport to see that the rabies shot details had been entered - and if none, the kitten surely would have been returned to the vet pronto.

The problem (re travel) seems to have arisen either as a result of the OP having booked travel arrangements for virtually bang on 21 days after the rabies shot or the breeder has been lackadaisical enough not to check the paperwork quickly enough... i.e. there could have been a window of opportunity to get the kitten quickly back to the vet for its rabies shot in time for travel.


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## FinnCat (Aug 25, 2013)

Again, many thanks on all the responses for this - they have been very useful to me.

To clarify, all dates were agreed beforehand and there was some leeway but this did not help as the breeder was away for the period over which the vaccination could have taken place and for a problem not to arise. We thought - foolishly - we had plenty of time. I would never have imagined the breeder would be away for such an important event. I was horrified by this. 

The matter of the contract is interesting as what is legally binding here in Finland (emails etc) is not going to hold in the UK as money has not changed hands. Perhaps society is more trusting here - what is spoken or written is a bond. 

My personal opinion is that the breeder should agree to pay the new flight, and then take the vet to the small claims court if it is believed it is his fault, but that is not my problem. I have offered to charge only for the cheapest flight available, and not for a hotel stay (it is not possible to do the journey in 24 hours). The breeder however has refused this and I find it sad that a breeder of considerable reputation has responded in this way.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Yes, a case of penny-wise, pound foolish I guess. Buying a ticket 3 weeks or less before the actual date is usually twice as expensive (sometimes more, depending on the airline).


Cancellation insurance costs just a few pounds.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My personal opinion is that the breeder should agree to pay the new flight, and then take the vet to the small claims court


Well that isn't going to happen because the vet has done nothing wrong. Your problem, as you've discovered, is that you have no contract. You may yet decide this is a good thing. What would you do if you turned up and decided this was not the place you wanted to buy a kitten from? As things stand you could walk away. There is no obligation on either side.


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## FinnCat (Aug 25, 2013)

I appreciate that if I decided not to buy the kitten that would be my responsibility and decision. However I have been denied that opportunity because of the delay in vaccination. 

Under Finnish law, the breeder has renegaded on the agreement and broken the contract even if it was simply written in informal emails. From what you say, I understand from the English legal point of view this sort of thing is fine to do as no money has been exchanged. This is why I originally posted the issue: I needed feedback and also to understand some of the cultural differences in order to know how to proceed.

My thanks again.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

UK Contract Law applies as the kitten is in the UK. You have given no consideration so must take the loss on the chin. If you had paid a deposit and had a signed contract setting the delivery date my advice would be different.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

FinnCat said:


> The breeder however has refused this and I find it sad that a breeder of considerable reputation has responded in this way.


Though it may exist, I find it difficult to imagine a circumstance whereby the breeder's vet was entirely responsible for this error. But as mentioned anyway, you have no contract so it's purely down to whether things can be amicably sorted between the two of you. Given what you've said above it seems that won't happen and though it's hugely disappointing (and costly) for you perhaps best walk away at this time in the knowledge that at least you won't be dealing with someone who sounds to be wholly unsympathetic in considering your financial loss as a result of *their* error.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

put it another way and see if you would still blame the breeder.....

the kitten had the rabies vaccine but had a slight reaction to the vaccine so was then unfit to travel for afew days, would you still come to the conclusion breeders fault and vets fault.


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## FinnCat (Aug 25, 2013)

A very good point about the bad reaction to the vaccine. If that were the case, the welfare of the kitten comes first, undoubtedly. I would not then question the cost or blame in any way under those circumstances.

But yes, I think I am resigned to 'taking it on the chin'. Your views and opinions have been most helpful.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I do appreciate how annoyed and upsetting this situation is and i do feel for you, hopefully you can still have this kitten of your choice but next time sign a contract as you cant always take people's word for things.

Ive also learnt the hard way so i do understand where you are coming from i just cant give any advise which would help you.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I too understand how upset you must be and I think you have reason to be.


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## FinnCat (Aug 25, 2013)

Thank you very much. I hope there will be a happy ending to this somehow.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

FinnCat said:


> Again, many thanks on all the responses for this - they have been very useful to me.
> 
> To clarify, all dates were agreed beforehand and there was some leeway but this did not help as the breeder was away for the period over which the vaccination could have taken place and for a problem not to arise. We thought - foolishly - we had plenty of time. I would never have imagined the breeder would be away for such an important event. I was horrified by this.
> 
> ...


I do see where you're coming from. I think the culture in The Netherlands is really quite similiar. Legally binding or not, a decent human being would have certainly offered to pay for the new ticket. However, we are only hearing one side of the story now so we don't know the relationship between yourself and the breeder or whether it's a friend-friend thing with a very informal agreement where the breeder makes absolutely zero money etc.

I hope it works out for you. It's hard to wait longer but personally, I'd just cancel it right now (unless you're willing to take the risk) because I just think you're both already off on a bad foot (the breeder-breeder relationship is so important due to health etc.) and that's just not very nice for the future (e.g. potential problems/advice/something).


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