# Chocolate Lab Stud available to breed.



## daisycakesxo (Jul 20, 2011)

We have a gorgeous pedigree chocolate lab, he's just gone 3 years old and we have decided that it would be a great idea to use him to breed.

He is a brilliant, kind and loving boy who is extremely obedient and a perfect household pet, he's great with other dogs and children! He's been a chunky, well-built dog since birth, he has the most handsome structure.

We have all the paper work with his birth, but other than that I'm totally clueless to what tests have to be done etc.. I'm really new at this whole breeding thing so any help would be great


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9236-thinking-about-offering-your-dog-stud.html


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Other than his lovely nature, what have you to offer?

I speak as a Lab owner, and hopefully (soon to be) breeder, and a lovely household pet just don't do it for me. I want a Sh Ch or Ft Ch, with the appropriate health tests. 

In other words, as a bitch owner, I have my choice of dogs to use, with the information you've posted, you will really have the dregs coming to use you if at all. Not a reflection on your boy, just a reflection on the way good breeding stock is chosen


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I believe stud adverts arent allowed, thank dog (or is that just enquires???)


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## daisycakesxo (Jul 20, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Other than his lovely nature, what have you to offer?
> 
> I speak as a Lab owner, and hopefully (soon to be) breeder, and a lovely household pet just don't do it for me. I want a Sh Ch or Ft Ch, with the appropriate health tests.
> 
> In other words, as a bitch owner, I have my choice of dogs to use, with the information you've posted, you will really have the dregs coming to use you if at all. Not a reflection on your boy, just a reflection on the way good breeding stock is chosen


I'm really new to this, we've always considered our lab for breeding and i got stopped in the street by this gentleman who I got talking to, he was analyzing the dog and told me that I should start breeding him... Do you have any ideas on where I should go for all the health tests etc? I really want to get him breeding, just need some help getting the correct information etc..


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Apols, just noticed the 'I'm new to this' bit, so thought I'd post a bit from a friend of mine:
_
I have been half meaning to write this for ages but only got round to it today after another memorable half hour occured to add to the list

Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance

Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:

1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery. 
What do you do? 
What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown

What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.

2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!

3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.

4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....

5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.

6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.

7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.

Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!

9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.

10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.

Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes. 
Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated. 
So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.

So i hope some of the above might set a bit more thinking in motion about how people think its all natural and taking candy from a baby handling a dog at stud. _

That diatribe from Di of Wylanbriar Labs, should hope fully give you an insight into just how difficult it can be offering a stud dog service, and that it ain't all Barry White, throw cushions and a few scented candles


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

To the OP. The first reply by Argent gives a really useful link which you should read. It will tell you most, if not all, you need to know. Please do read it.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

daisycakesxo said:


> I'm really new to this, we've always considered our lab for breeding and i got stopped in the street by this gentleman who I got talking to, he was analyzing the dog and told me that I should start breeding him... Do you have any ideas on where I should go for all the health tests etc? I really want to get him breeding, just need some help getting the correct information etc..


As has already been pointed out to you - bitch owners, even pet owners have the pick of dogs, including those that have done well in the ring and / or field (I do think it is wrong to say I want a SH CH or FT CH as that indicates a complete lack of understanding of breeding) - some of the most successful prolific labrador stud dogs have been neither - yet their names and genes will be indelibly etched in our minds and in our dogs.

However, having said all that - do you show and / or work your dog - or is he just a 'nice family pet'? (and yes, they can be two out of the three).

Before even considering standing a Labrador at stud, you have to do a number of health tests


Hip scores
Elbow grading (scores)
A current clear eye certificate (lasts for 12 months)
DNA tested for Optigen PRA
Some breeders also DNA test for CNM

Assuming his scores are acceptable - hips around the 15/16 mark in total (they can be a maximum of 106) - but the lower the better

Elbows 0 or 1 - there are stud dogs used with elbow scores of 1 - but they are frequently dogs that really do have something 'special' about them when looking at the bigger picture.

PRA - he could be clear, carrier or affected - this is a recessive condition - and most bitch owners will look for clears - untested, carriers and affected can be used to clear bitches - but again - these, in the main will be dogs who, again, when looking at the bigger picture can offer qualities the gene pool doesn't want to lose.

His eye certificate should be "unaffected" - eye tests can only be done by specialist panellists - the BVA keeps a record of them - usually there is, in the main, one panellist in each section of the UK, there is one in South Wales, and one in North Wales, and I believe one in Scotland - and often waiting lists to get an appointment are long, and costs continue to rise.

Those tests will set you back, when including BVA fees, and vets fees for the DNA testing, in the region of £600+.

Now you've spent all that money - but you still in the position to be completely unable him - bitch owners chose whose dog they use, not the stud dog owners.

==========================

In addition to all the above, you have to be in a position to give advice to bitch owners, you often have to get VERY personal with your dog (and I mean personal) - and sometimes quite intimate with visiting bitches as well.

If you've never bred a litter - how would you support novice bitch owners? can you give them a back up that often lasts long after the pups have left - both my first two stud dog owners I've used have, and contninue to support me, even with their 'grandchildren' and do that for many of their dogs offspring - some even showing and working the dogs for them.

======================

That's all the easy bits out of the way - now somehow you have to attract the girls - if you don't show him or work him, or do some other time of specialist activity - where will people see him? how will they find out about him? Often good stud dogs and pups come through word of mouth - and this seems to increase year on year - looking at what the dogs are producing in terms of show and / or working qualities.

==================================

None of the above is being pedantic - it's just 'telling it how it is' - I have a chocolate stud dog, his hips couldn't be much lower scored, his elbows are perfect - he is PRA and CNM clear and has an annual eye certificate.

His sire and grandsire are SH CH, his dam's sire line comes from a line of one of the top kennels in the UK and further afield.

He is shown regularly, and although a bit of a clown - when he behaves he can and does do well.

99.9% of enquiries I get to use him, I turn away

====================================

You also don't know if it will change him or not - having recently heard of a recently neutered youngster mating a neutered bitch - against all the odds, you can only realistically believe that this dog has had prior 'experience'.

Matings at the best of time are not all heart and flowers (and sometimes not particularly pleasant for the bitch) - so you can only begin to get a feel of what the above scenario might entail - it doesn't even bear thinking about.

My boy is so soft (he lives with 5 entire girls) - it hasn't changed him - but I have heard of dogs actively seeking out in-season bitches - and what they will do to get to them is sometimes almost beyond comprehension.

I've heard of dogs becoming aggressive in the company of other male dogs - and at that point, you have the added risk that if you decided to neuter - there is clearly a very real risk it won't dampen his ardour or stop him seeking out bitches - so your problems don't go away.

=======================

No-one can tell you what to do, but your boy is already 3, do you really want to subject him to tests that can, place his life at risk (and you pockets a lot lighter) for a miniscule chance that someone with a correctly health tested bitch will approach you to use him.

If you want a stud dog, or would like to breed yourself - then seek out a good breeder from one of the good show, working or dual purpose kennels and get yourself a reliable and supportive mentor - enjoy your boy for what he is - a clearly darling lovely family pet


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Was just coming back to this, my interweb has been chuffed all day, but basically, what Swarthy said ^^^ 

I haven't actually bred one litter myself yet, I'm still at the research stage


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## mia'smum (Sep 10, 2010)

Do you have a pic to share of your boy?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I don't think it's allowed either DD.


I would seriously consider not breeding, as there are so many pups already out in rescue centres. A fair few of labs as well. 

The website Argent posted is excellent, definately take a read and take on board the fab advice given to you on this forum by experienced breeders/researchers(SL)


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> I would seriously consider not breeding, as there are so many pups already out in rescue centres. A fair few of labs as well.


There are a fair few Labs in rescue, you are right, but the large majority are from BYB and PF - which is more than likely the route the OP would end up going, because the dog is unlikely to be in a position to attract good quality bitches.

This is why my advice was to enjoy the boy they have, and if they are intent on breeding, to find a good breeder of the type of Lab they like and take it from there.

Contrary to popular belief - one of the reasons so many Labs do end up in rescue, is because there simply isn't enough good quality, responsible breeders out there to feed demand - hence people end up going to BYB and PF - who give them no advice on raising their pup or training them - and once they hit adolescence a lot simply give up (and having one myself going through a prolonged adolesence and unusually being a bitch - I can understand why some would give up).

You also have to remember - that Labs bred year on year are 1.5 times the 2nd most popular breed - with estimations that half that number again are unregistered - taking that into consideration - if you weigh up the number of Labs in rescue compared to the numbers bred and then look at other breeds - the view can become slightly skewed.

With good support and back-up from the breeder, plus advice on breeding responsibly, there is no reason why anyone who starts out properly can't have the makings of a good ethical responsible breeder with a good mentor behind them.

The amount of Labs - or any other breed in rescue for that matter is immaterial - you can stop new BYB adding to the problem, but reducing the number of responsibly bred puppies by good breeders would make the situation worse not better

If someone wants a puppy, they want a puppy, it doesn't matter how hard you try to convince them otherwise (Believe me, I've tried) - they will find a puppy 

The amount of people who've come to me who I really don't feel they have the lifestyle to suit a pup, but I feel could offer a dog a loving forever home is high - I've tried desperately to get these people to explore the rescue route, pretty much without success.

Better these people find a good breeder who is prepared to work with them than they go to a PF or BYB who couldn't give a damn what happens to their pups, they just want rid - these are the occasions, when pups are most likely to end up in rescue 

Most breeders have different guidelines as to what meets a suitable criteria for their pups, that might be full-time workers, others won't sell to families with children under a certain age, for others it might be living in anything above a ground floor flat with no lift (me), and many other reasons - and when exploring their private lives discovering factors which you simply don't feel right to bring in a puppy.

Each breeder has the right to make those decisions - after all, they are the ones that have put in the money, time, energy, love and back-breaking hours of no sleep to whelp and raise that litter.

==========================

So to return to my orginal point - it's not about discouraging people from breeding period - it's about encouraging people to do it properly if they are intent on it (with exceptions for a few breeds)

The OP hasn't been back - for all we know - they may have a top bred quality dog from a top kennel - in which case, most of what has been said is immaterial, they should be talking to their dogs breeder for advice and guidance - and go from there.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've been having internet connectivity problems for the last couple of days (see my post in general with the letter telling the service provider to bog off) but just wanted to say, cracking post Swarthy!

To the op, if you are hanging about, please don't be put off asking any questions, we do tend to say it as it is and promote ethical breeding as much as possible, but everyone has to start somewhere, so please do join in and ask


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