# Breeding restrictions?



## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi

I was wondering what everyone thought about breeding restrictions placed on cats sold on active or by stud owners on use of stud?

Recently it seems more and more people are placing restrictions such as no boy kittens to be kept on active, only one kitten on active from the litter etc etc etc

I'm interested in people's views on why restrictions are put on breeding cats? particularly where people are charging a premium for their cats to be sold on active....... to me having tight restrictions on a breeding kitten should mean their 'value' is lowered in terms of a monetary price due to how the new owner is to be restricted.

Note the inverted commas there - *all cats and kittens are precious to me*.

I just feel charging a top whack for a kitten and then saying to the new owner they are on active but you can't do this that or the other with them smacks of lack of trust (and if so then why sell the kitten on active in first place) and two bites of cherry re price and retaining control over the new owners breeding plans with that kitten.

Obviously my views may well change on this as and when my first litter is born and I freely admit I am a totally novice breeder but have spent the last y2 years on the buyer's side of the fence . But going on from previous threads about hobby breeding to develop the breed out of love etc, it could be very hard to develop your lines and work towards something if you can only buy cats that have heavy restrictions on which kittens you can and can't keep on active?

Donning my tin hat and flak jacket now


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

There does seem to be a growing trend in placing restrictions. You find that once one breeder starts to do it others follow suit. I have seen it done on offspring of a particular stud but never on an active kitten. I would imagine that unless appropriately handled that neither instances are enforceable under law. Certainly not the way restrictions on a stud service were handled by more than one stud owner  ie the first time you hear of the restrictions are when you get handed the mating certificate after the deed has been done. They form more of a gentle woman's agreement. The GCCF do not enforce any restrictions the stud owner or breeder of the kitten place on the transaction.

I can see a reason for restrictions IF and only if it benefits the overall gene pool  ie restricting the number of actives from a particular stud that get placed back into that gene pool etc. However, the times I have personally seen restrictions placed has been for both monetary purposes (ie "taking business" from the father) and an attempt to limit the number show types hitting the adult classes (openly admitted!!!) Neither of those are valid reasons in my book and do nothing to benefit the breed as a whole.


----------



## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

I've started to see it on male and female kittens sold on active. For the boys the owner is not 'allowed' (like you I think enforceability of these terms is a grey area) to sell any male offspring on active and only may keep one boy for themselves and for females sold on active I have seen restrictions ranging from 1 female kitten may be kept on active and no males to no kittens being kept on active.......


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I wouldn't purchase an active kitten on that basis. The breeder either sells the kitten active or they don't, they certainly do not have any right to dicatate to you what you do with any litters you breed. No matter how interesting the pedigree, I would walk away. Those sort of restrictions are all about protecting the original breeder/owner and nothing about the breed as a whole :nonod:


----------



## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't believe in them and wouldn't purchase a cat on active if it had restrictions, I also wouldn't impose any restrictions on ours.

I haven't seen it done genuinely "for the good of the breed" only for monetary reasons.


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I have been reading a lot about this and came across it quite a lot so will not have any restrictions on my boy, I do not think. Unless the buyer lives within a 50 miles radius.  Joking.....


----------



## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Saikou said:


> I wouldn't purchase an active kitten on that basis. The breeder either sells the kitten active or they don't, they certainly do not have any right to dicatate to you what you do with any litters you breed. No matter how interesting the pedigree, I would walk away. Those sort of restrictions are all about protecting the original breeder/owner and nothing about the breed as a whole :nonod:


That's reassured me - I wondered if I was alone in feeling why sell on active if they felt need to so heavily restrict? I have approached and made enquiries of lots of breeders and there is such a range of attitudes on this one.


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I am sure if the GCCF thought that these restrictions were beneficial they would be upholding them - bearing in mind how much they love red tape and paperwork


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Several stud owners that I approached when looking for a mate for Mai Tai put restrictions on whether I could sell my kittens as active. One stated that none could be sold as active (But I could keep a girl for myself) and another that only females could be sold as active.Mai Tai's breeder told me that she could not sell active males either so this seems to be a very common practice.


----------



## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

It seems very bizarre to me to limit gene pools like this. Especially when you find (I have seen it even when looking at show programmes) that most if not all litters from a set range of years are from the same stud. It is difficult enough, it sounds like, to home a stud anyway so why make it harder to find one if you have the facilities & time to care for one??

It's hardly for the benefit of the breed, that's for sure..


----------



## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Hi, I also find this debate very interesting. I fully intend to sell my kittens as pets but I agree it is strange to place a kitten on active with restrictions. The breeder of my girl has said I can keep whatever I like from any litter she produces and to run it past her if someone would like one on active (someone I know and approve of) and if she thinks it is the right thing to do, she will give her consent (this seems fair to what other breeders are doing...?) I haven't any restrictions from the stud owner. Seems very fair now I've read this!

I do know of a few breeders who have got heavy restrictions put on them, which means they can do very little to help improve the breed. I think the restrictions are there for monetary reasons mainly. There are a few well know studs, who have a couple of well know offspring. I suppose the more good quality litters he sires, the more potential competition there is for stud services? However, if we are all trying to improve the breed standard and type of our chosen breed (as we SHOULD be), then if this trend continues, the gene pool will become smaller and smaller.

I agree that it is important to protect kittens from unscrupulous/BYB breeders but if you trusted them enough to sell them an active kitten or let their queen come to stud, then surely you should trust them enough to make their own decisions in the best interest of the breed......?


----------



## magisragis (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi All

I have been contracted on every breeding cat I have bought. The contracts were drawn up by a solicitor and are enforcable in a court of law and have stood up in a court of law. I would use the same contract, I use a similar version for my pet kittens. I expected to be contracted and I don't have a problem with it. I don't find any of the contracts placed on me as restrictive, I can move my breeding programme on with them.

I have not bought from people who have open studs, in fact, most of them do very little, if any stud work so it is not because you would be taking business from them. I have bought from people who sell few breeding cats and when I use a stud service I look for something a little bit different.

We do keep an eye on our gene pool. Too many cats out there with the same pedigree is not considered the best in Ragdolls. Stud boys can produce a lot of kittens in their lifetime. We also look to secure lines, we do not want to lose any, so most breeders are flexible further down the line. For example, you could buy a girl that you are contracted to keep a girl yourself and not sell anything active. What then happens if the original breeder suddenly loses a line? You might be the only person with that line out there. 

Breeders are also not very trusting of new breeders. It comes through experience. Sorry if us Ragdoll breeders come across as a bit stand-offish but a lot of breeders have had bad experiences. It could also explain why more breeders are contracting people.

Margaret


----------



## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

magisragis said:


> Hi All
> 
> Breeders are also not very trusting of new breeders. It comes through experience. Sorry if us Ragdoll breeders come across as a bit stand-offish but a lot of breeders have had bad experiences. It could also explain why more breeders are contracting people.
> 
> Margaret


Hi, I am also new to breeding and I completely understand this as I would most definitely NOT sell a kitten to any breeder new/or old, who I didn't know and trust 100%. I'm sure there are many breeders who have had bad experiences with new breeders, but I like to think the majority have the best interest of the breed at heart, as I know I do. I actually don't mind that I have to have the approval of my girl's breeder if I wanted to let a kitten go on active as I know she has vast experience and will guide me in the best way. However, as I said before I know of some people who do have very limiting restrictions placed on them that do not seem to be for the benefit of the gene pool or breed IMHO 

But I must say I personally intend any kittens I breed to go to pet homes as that is my preference for them and there would have to be an exceptional reason and only to someone I knew really well, before I would even consider the option of a kitten going on the active, mainly because I just want them to be pampered pets like my own cats!


----------



## magisragis (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi 2Flowers

I think you have hit the nail on the head - as a new breeder you gain a breeders trust. They mentor you and guide you. A good mentor is worth its weight in gold. New breeders must take things slowly. Breed that first litter and see if they like it. 

I am learning in breeding, I showed for a few years before getting my first breeding girl so had a pretty good idea of type etc and what I wanted to do. It then took me a few years to decide whether I wanted a stud boy or not. I did not rush into it. It was a big step to take for me.

I do know people who breed who never sell for breeding and never allow people in to stud - what use is that for any breed? I actually think it is quite selfish. Someone has given them the opportunity to breed but they cannot reciprocate? 

The people I have bought from are also my friends, another reason for contracts. It must never interfere with our friendship. I have seen good friends over the years fall out over misunderstandings etc. So silly. If they put in writing what is expected of each other in the first place it may not have happened. 

I guess it is a balancing act. A lot of responsibility comes with breeding. 

Good luck 2Flowers with your breeding,

Margaret


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

magisragis said:


> I have been contracted on every breeding cat I have bought. The contracts were drawn up by a solicitor and are enforcable in a court of law and have stood up in a court of law.


That may well be the case for the cats that you have purchased but I would be willing to bet that most breeders that place restrictions do not do that!! For instance I used a particular stud twice 18mths between visits. The first visit the stud had no restrictions, the second there were restrictions on the mating certificate. This had not been mentioned before I went the second time, nor had I agreed to a mating on that basis - so no in those instances those restrictions would not stand up in a court of law!!

Any restrictions placed progeny if not for monetary reasons still smacks of a few individuals trying to control a breed gene pool for their own ends and definitely not for the benefit of the breed as a whole.

If breeders are happy to be governed by someone else that is their affair, but the vast majority of breeders, new or old would not want their breeding program dictated to by others.


----------



## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

magisragis said:


> Hi 2Flowers
> 
> Good luck 2Flowers with your breeding,
> 
> Margaret


Thank you!


----------



## Lulusmum (Jan 15, 2010)

I have only sold a couple of active cats, but The way I see it is, If you trust someone enough to sell them a breeding cat you should trust them enough to make the right judgement.

The problem with the Tonkinese is that so few people are willing to keep boys,there is only a handful out there and its restricting the gene pool.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Soupie said:


> I've started to see it on male and female kittens sold on active. For the boys the owner is not 'allowed' (like you I think enforceability of these terms is a grey area) to sell any male offspring on active and only may keep one boy for themselves and for females sold on active I have seen restrictions ranging from 1 female kitten may be kept on active and no males to no kittens being kept on active.......


Ridiculous - unless the kitten is being sold at the same price as a pet, perhaps. How can you make someone pay extra for an active register kitten and then tell them what they can and can't do? The GCCF would not support it I am sure.

In the last two years I have bought in two boys and three girls on the active register, none had any special conditions imposed. When I sell active register kittens (as I am quite happy to do to the right homes) there is no price increase and there are no conditions apart from the usual "please do not sell on the cat, if you can't keep it I want it to come back to me" (even that is not enforceable of course)

Liz


----------



## Mochali (Sep 29, 2008)

Lulusmum said:


> I have only sold a couple of active cats, but The way I see it is, If you trust someone enough to sell them a breeding cat you should trust them enough to make the right judgement.
> 
> The problem with the Tonkinese is that so few people are willing to keep boys,there is only a handful out there and its restricting the gene pool.


I totally agree


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

magisragis said:


> I have not bought from people who have open studs, in fact, most of them do very little, if any stud work so it is not because you would be taking business from them. I have bought from people who sell few breeding cats and when I use a stud service I look for something a little bit different.


This seems to be the norm across many breeds. People say that studs with no restrictions will be over-used thus contributing far too much to the gene pool but in fact the studs with no restrictions don't seem to be used much at all. The biggest factor in breeder's decisions to use a particular stud seems to be show titles, which is understandable of course if you want to keep a kitten for show (very few indeed get sold for show) but the plain fact is that it is not as simple as two show quality cats producing show quality kittens, you need to look at the kittens the stud is producing rather than at the stud himself. My best show cat at the moment comes from two parents who were both withheld on more often than they got certificates, and of course it can work the other way too.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Lulusmum said:


> The problem with the Tonkinese is that so few people are willing to keep boys,there is only a handful out there and its restricting the gene pool.


Interesting. Is that more the case for Tonkinese than for Siamese and Burmese, ie. some peculiarity of the breed, or is it just a small breed which therefore will inevitably have fewer studs? Does anyone know?

Actually, having looked up the figures, I can probably answer my own question. In 2008 (tha last year for which figures are available) 3404 Siamese were registered and 2371 Burmese but only 426 Tonkinese.

Liz


----------



## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi everyone 

Interesting thoughts. Part of me baulking at buying a breeding cat with heavy restrictions is spending the best part of £1000 on a breeding cat to then be so restricted that I may not be able to keep what turns out to be the best kitten in the litter which ultimately may mean I am not able to progress the breed?

I also feel it shows a certain lack of trust on the part of the breeder selling the kitten. I don't want to sell kittens for breeding to start with - healthy kittens with good pet homes is my aim but I would like the freedom to do so if I choose to. I've spent several years getting to know breeders in my chosen breed and the outcross breeds and learning about my breed and actively participating in the breeds progression in this country - both as a committee member and an active exhibitor. I've definitely done my homework  so whilst I AM a novice breeder, I am not a novice in terms of the breed I am involved in.

I can see on the one hand why people put restrictions on their cats sold on active but I do think then charging a premium price for them is taking the pee a little?


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/BreedingPolicy.pdf

*To Summarise - 4.12

While it is recognised that breeders may not wish to entrust their valuable breeding lines to individuals who may not operate humane and qualitatively intellegent breeding practice, the GCCF would strongly recommend that breeders do not place excessive numbers of healthy good quality cats on the non-active register because they wish to operate commercially restrictive practices.*

Hope this helps. It seems to me that any restrictions placed upon active registered cats would be pretty much unenforcable with the GCCF. Their priority is to keep as much diversity in the genepool as is needed to improve the quality of kittens being produced.

Off topic slightly - Could this be seen as a "loophole" for owners of exceptional quality, non-actively registered cats to appeal to the GCCF for transfer to the active register, regardless of the breeders views? Food for thought anyway!


----------



## magisragis (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi

It is not a loophole. GCCF will only ever change the status of a cat from non-active to active on the say so of the breeder. I think WW3, 4 & 5 would break out if they dared try change that one. It would go before council and would be rejected. Quite rightly so. I understand the statement to mean that some people will never, ever sell for breeding. I know people like that. Never let you in to stud, never sell for breeding. No point in breeding in my eyes. 

Many times a breeder produces a good type breeding cat or show cat but cannot find a suitable home and they go as pets. 

GCCF don't get to involved in disputes with contracts etc. If a contract exists it goes to a court of law. GCCF do not hold courts of law. Not in their jurisdiction. Neither can they afford the legal bills. 

In the Ragdoll if we only used titled cats for breeding we would have bred ourselves into a corner many years ago! Many fine breeding cats would never make it on to the show bench because of their marking faults but some of those cats have gone on to produce top show winning Ragdolls. I have heard that in some European countries they don't like you breeding with mis-marked Ragdolls. Cannot understand that as two perfectly marked cats don't produce perfectly marked kittens. Not the way the genetics works.

I don't like closed door policies by breeders. If lots of people do that then you will have one person who opens the doors to everyone. So all and sundry go there and hey presto, you have the same pedigree cats all over the place. That is not healthy. 

If a breed is breeding its way through a genetic defect then people will have to be very sensible and practical about restrictions they have placed on people in the past. 

As I have said, I have no problems with contracts and restrictions but not when it strangles a breed. 

Margaret


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

magisragis said:


> GCCF will only ever change the status of a cat from non-active to active on the say so of the breeder.


I know of at least one case where they or the breeder rather was forced to by a court of law. The kitten was purchased on the non active register, the concept of active and non active explained to the kitten buyer and they agreed. They subsequently changed their mind about breeding from the kitten and requested she be moved to the active register. The breeder refused to give permission so the owner who happened to a solicitor I believe took the breeder to court. The court found in the owners favour as there was no proof that the non active terms had been agreed to by the owner and the breeder was forced to agree to the kitten being placed on the active register.


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Off topic but I have noticed some of the mismarked Ragdolls have the most beautiful eye colour.


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

I completely agree! Everything in moderation. There are two extremes, those breeders who care little about the breed standards and more about "earnings" producing entire litters of "pet quality" kittens all on the active register, and the breeders who produce amazing cats but refuse to sell on the active register / place absurd restrictions etc. Neither one is doing the breed any good whatsoever. Its a fine balancing act. We could easily end up with a "two tiered class system" with only the "not quite good enough to breed from" kittens being offered on active and the perfect breeding cats being sheltered in a few closed catteries. 

As for imperfectly marked breeding cats - I had a beautiful mitted girl (now retired), who, although had uneven mitts and a blob of white on her whisker pad, had a great pedigree and had perfectly marked babies everytime. 

There WOULD be ww3,4 and 5 breaking out tho if the GCCF took steps to over rule breeder wishes lol. It's an interesting document though and raises some very good points i think.


----------



## magisragis (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi Saikou

That is horrendous. Never sell to a solicitor! (only joking) Was it a good quality contract that was drawn up? 

A few of us breeders use the same one and the wording is very clear on breeding and non breeding cats. It has previously stood up including a time when one breeder broke the contract.

When I have someone come around to view a pet kitten I am never on my own with the people and I show them the registration documents and clearly go through the wording on the pink slip etc. Mind you, it would then be one word against another. I then ask them to read the contract before agreeing to a sale. I did have someone a few weeks ago get to the bottom bit (where it says about not breeding from and if the contract is broken I can repossess the cat etc). They suddenly did not like the idea of a contract, even though it was explained on the phone etc. Wanted me to change it by holding cash infront of my nose. I showed them the door. She wanted a female from me and had just got herself a male bengal and female BSH. told her she could go eslewhere.

Margaret


----------



## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

I can understand why breeding restictions are placed - particularly if a breeder has spent a lot of time amd expense on introducing new colours and wants to develop it in her own lines before it is opened up to others - then initially breeding restrictions would be likely to be placed - the other scenario would be if a male cat has been bought at a very low cost or even free but been allowed to be used for a stud boy then again I can understand why breeding restrictions would be placed as the person would be profiting from a generous gesture .

I dont think any breeder would be against the proper development of any breed but woukld to ensure its done correctly


----------



## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

The other scenario would be if a breeder was helping someone start out and not charge initially for a breeding queen or stud boy or allowed use of a stud boy for free then I would understand why breeding restrictions would be placed then..

It wouldnt in my opinion be right for someone to profit from someones genrosity or willingness to give them a helping hand


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

anniem said:


> I can understand why breeding restictions are placed - particularly if a breeder has spent a lot of time amd expense on introducing new colours and wants to develop it in her own lines before it is opened up to others - then initially breeding restrictions would be likely to be placed - the other scenario would be if a male cat has been bought at a very low cost or even free but been allowed to be used for a stud boy then again I can understand why breeding restrictions would be placed as the person would be profiting from a generous gesture .
> 
> I dont think any breeder would be against the proper development of any breed but woukld to ensure its done correctly


But surely any developments within a breed should be for the benefit of the breed as a whole and not individual gain. It is highly unlikely that any breeder can develop a colour or the like using their own cats solely they would need the collaboration of a number of breeders. If its done to ensure that certain genes do not end up in the general populous or to control the use of those traits then thats what the various registers are for.

Any restrictions placed for personal or financial gain are not valid reasons when artificially limits a breed gene pool.


----------



## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

A very interesting topic. It took me a while to purchase a suitable queen without restriction. When paying good money for a queen on the active register it really disheartend me to the amount of restrictions that where being put in place. Again how enforcabel is it? I decided to wait until I could find the right female for me. 

Surley breeding resitrictions should be for the good of the breed not the financial aspect of keeping the market to themselves. Ive bred horses for years and only just making my venture into cats and and never heard of such restricions before my search for a suitable queen....It is certainly not something that crops up in horsey circles!


----------



## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

Its nothing to do with financial aspects. If you have someone who has paid next to nothing for a queen or stud boy and they have no restrictions then they are free to sell on the active to as many people as they want for monetary gain on their part which is certainly not to the good of any breed.
My point in the post was breeding restrictions should be in place to ensure that breeds are not just sold willy nilly on the active to all and sundry which therefore is in the interest and development of the breed. It has nothing to do with money but to ensure breeds are developed properly and that you dont have people mating with girls as soon as thery come into call and then selling offspring on for the same to happen, That is certainly not for the good of the breed


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Breeders should not be selling actives if they do not trust the new owners 100% period and most definitely not if their only concern is whether the new owner is going to make more money out of that cat than they did selling him/her in the first place


----------



## tilsie (Jun 15, 2009)

anniem said:


> Its nothing to do with financial aspects. If you have someone who has paid next to nothing for a queen or stud boy and they have no restrictions then they are free to sell on the active to as many people as they want for monetary gain on their part which is certainly not to the good of any breed.
> My point in the post was breeding restrictions should be in place to ensure that breeds are not just sold willy nilly on the active to all and sundry which therefore is in the interest and development of the breed. It has nothing to do with money but to ensure breeds are developed properly and that you dont have people mating with girls as soon as thery come into call and then selling offspring on for the same to happen, That is certainly not for the good of the breed


I totally agree Annie. In my breed, Colourpoint Persians, it is hard to buy either a stud or queen without restrictions but these cats are quality cats. There are some breeders out there, one in particular, who buy cheap pure pet quality kittens and then breed from them. They breed their girls litter after litter producing pet quality kittens but as they have no restrictions on their cats they sell all the offspring as 'top quality breeding cats' to niave novices or backstreet breeders just because they can get an extra £250 - £400 per kitten. The novice then thinks they are breeding with good quality cats and so the circle continues until the type we took so long to create is being lost to inferior type cats. The backstreet breeder of course just doesn't give a damn.

I have only ever sold one female for breeding and had to take that girl and the male neuter she had also had from me back. I was able to do this because of my contract and a solicitor so contracts do work. This experience has made me very wary of selling for breeding and I would much prefer my precious babies go to a forever loving home and not somewhere where they will be used until they are of no more use and then passed on to someone else. I will only sell to people I know well and who I admire their breeding practices. If people think that this type of breeding is pointless that is their opinion. I believe my breeding is worthwhile.

Our kittens don't ask to be born they are deliberately created by us and therefore, in my opinion, need every safe guard we can give to ensure a good life for them. There are a lot of con artists out there eager to make a fast buck. These people know just what to say to convince you they are genuine but once they get there hands on your precious kittens they don't care about that cats welfare just what money that cat can produce for them. You will only truly understand this, Sarah, when you have breed some litters.


----------



## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

tilsie said:


> There are a lot of con artists out there eager to make a fast buck. These people know just what to say to convince you they are genuine but once they get there hands on your precious kittens they don't care about that cats welfare just what money that cat can produce for them. You will only truly understand this, Sarah, when you have breed some litters.


As I'm not one of those people it's probably why I find it hard to get my head around at the moment. I've always been very upfront and honest and I admit to being naive. All my cats are much loved pets to me and get the best food, care etc that I can afford and I'm not interested in 'making money' because I know done properly breeding is an expensive hobby at best and I would be lucky to cover any costs.

I do see your point and those made by anniem and agree with annie's point about where cats have been gifts or 'mates rates' and there being restrictions but the conversation which made me start the discussion was one with a breeder of a breed not well known to me and in the course of general conversation and the restrictions she quoted and the premium she charged on active registered cats at the time to me seemed 

Sharon makes the point about her horsey background and I come from the same one and it's hard when you are used to 'one world' to always completely understand a new one 

It's only by discussing these things openly and getting other views that newbies like me learn after all .........


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

If you mistrust any new owner that much then early neuter. I still don't get why if you trust the new owner sufficiently to let them have an active cat and breed - no matter what you charged for that cat - what the point of restrictions are. Especially bearing in mind that the GCCF doesn't up hold them and unless documented and witnessed appropriately neither would a court of law - so unenforceable!

I don't quite get what would be considered buying a cat cheap for gain. I assume you mean from individuals who do not charge a premium for active cats then if everyone did the same the incentive to sell everything active to make money would disappear -would it not. There is no valid reason for charging more for active cats in the first place and if all it does it create the potential for that cat to be abused then it should definitely be stopped.

If a cat if gifted or given at a reduced cost to a friend why would the breeder be so concerned about how much potential financial gain the new owner would make. If the breeder felt like that in the first place charge the normal price.


----------



## tilsie (Jun 15, 2009)

I know you love your cats and give them the very best, Sarah and I definitely don't consider you as one of those dubious individuals 

There are loads of people that contact me for kittens and they just want a pet but they would like her to have one litter and you know by the way the conversation goes that they want to breed but have no intentions of doing it properly and only intend to breed from the cheapest cat they can find. The one person I know of even does stud work and her two boys are pure pet. She advertises one of them as from Grand Champion lines this is actually translated as 'he has a great, great grandfather that is a Gr. Ch.' :huh:. These poor quality 'breeding cats' are not helping the breed at all.

It is also frightening, I feel, when supposed 'good breeders' have their cats taken of them because they have been kept inappropriately (that is putting it mildly). I am sure everyone is aware of the two Persian breeders that have been mentioned online this year alone. Imagine how you would feel if one of those poor neglected cats were one you had sold to them. It is really hard to know who to trust.

It is hard when you come into one 'world' from another but comparisons shouldn't be made between the two. They are totally seperate albeit they are both showing and breeding.

Good luck with your breeding. See you at a show soon.


----------



## Lulusmum (Jan 15, 2010)

If you trust someone enough to sell on the active then, you should trust them enough to make the correct decisions for the breed. Contracts are so easily broken, its all down to the judge on the day. I have not sold many on the active, but they were done on trust. I admit I made a big mistake on the last one, but the owner duped many people including her own family.


----------



## tilsie (Jun 15, 2009)

I did trust the person I sold my one and only breeding girl to. She was a friend!!! Beware even friends can hoodwink you. She was got back because of my contract and it doesn't have to be witnessed just signed by you and the purchaser, that is from my solicitor not me.

Pet quality kittens sold by backstreet breeders to people who then go on to breed from them as they have no restrictions thus creating an influx of inferior quality cats. That is what I mean by getting a cheap cat and charging an arm and a leg for the pet quality offspring. One person I am thinking of in particular bought an adult girl for £200 and a stud boy for £225. The girl is not too bad but the stud looks like a Ragdoll and not a Colourpoint Persian. He is registered as is the girl. She breeds litter after litter and charges £650 a kitten as the are all, in her words, 'top quality breeding'. Novices are taken in by her and then they in turn breed inferior breeding cats and so and so. The market is then flooded with these cats that don't have the correct type.

As I have said I don't sell for breeding anymore so this doesn't apply to me from a sellers point of view. I have however bought cats with restrictions and that also hasn't bothered me. If the cat is what I want then I would agree to the restrictions. 

I can however see both sides of the argument :wink:.


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

tilsie said:


> Pet quality kittens sold by backstreet breeders to people who then go on to breed from them as they have no restrictions thus creating an influx of inferior quality cats. That is what I mean by getting a cheap cat and charging an arm and a leg for the pet quality offspring. One person I am thinking of in particular bought an adult girl for £200 and a stud boy for £225. The girl is not too bad but the stud looks like a Ragdoll and not a Colourpoint Persian. He is registered as is the girl. She breeds litter after litter and charges £650 a kitten as the are all, in her words, 'top quality breeding'. Novices are taken in by her and then they in turn breed inferior breeding cats and so and so. The market is then flooded with these cats that don't have the correct type.


Isn't it the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that if they sell a kitten active that the kitten is of an appropriate standard. If he/she isn't they shouldn't be bred from - placing restrictions on cat will do nothing to compensate for that, they shouldn't be active period.

I can think of plenty of breeders with registered prefixes, who exhibit and sell their cats for breeding who consider their cats "top quality", but don't make the grade in my book. Again, even if they placed restrictions on their cats they will still be placing inferior cats into the gene pool.

Quality is really in the eye of the beholder. There is such a range of opinions amoungst the judges how can anyone expect breeders to be consistent in what they consider to be correct type.


----------



## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Just came across this thread and have to say an interesting subject, of which I dont think everyone will ever agree on. I dont have a problem with restrictions to a certain degree but do think sometimes some breeders take it too far and restrict a person so much that there is no way they can even develop there own lines let alone anyone elses. Came across one breeder who a friend told me about who has horrendous restrictions on her breed cats ...think she is abit mad to be honest all pet kittens early neutered no exceptions, only one girl can be kept by the breeder for future breeding EVER!!! no boys can be kept and no active cats sold to anyone else to name a few things, how anyone can progress with these restrictions is beyound me. 

None of my girls have restrictions but they were sold more on trust than anything. I would not want to sell alot of cats for breeding but if I did I would only sell based on trust and would advise that the person especially f a newbie consulted me before deciding to sell active cats, to hopefully prevent a kitten getting into the wrong hands. I would hope that anyone I thought I could trust would also be wary and selective of who they sell to for breeding. It is only by getting to know someone and trusting them that I think I could sell for breeding and even then I would still be worried alittle. I can understand breeders who have had bad experiences to be reluctant to sell breeders. It only takes one misjudgement and before you know it that one person who maybe is not so fussy what they sell or who they sell to is allowing anyone to have cats on active to other byb's which will eventaully be of detriment to the breed.

I think completely restricting the sale of active cats to others can be just as damaging as someone selling everything on active with no restrictions. Do we not all place restrictions to some degree when selling cats, how many of us state on pet contracts not to be used for breeding? There are some people who think if you are buying a cat it should automatically come with breeding rights if the owner wants to breed, I completely disagree with this tbh.

Restrictions have their place aslong as they dont restrict the person buying the breed cats to much and developing their own breeding lines. There may be some people who you dont want to have your cats lines for whatever reason. So if you sell to one person I personnally would hope that they would then not go and sell to everyone else breeding cats.
As for the breeder well it would be upto them what they kept for themselves so no restrictions on their breeding. 

Just to change the slant on things, what are peoples take on stud cats and restrictions placed by the stud owner if a boy is at open stud? I have come across restrictions more so with this than anything else? I.e no boys to be kept by breeder at open stud. I can sort of understand restrictions like this on boys as it is very easy for a cat at open stud to produce alot of kittens more than any girl could and before you know it you could have alot of kittens being sired by one particular cat which is not going to do anything for genetic diversity and to benefit the breed. If my future boy where at open stud I think I would not allow any boys to be sold for breeding at open stud from him but would not stop a person keeping cats for their own breeding.
I think some restrictions have their place but not when they limit progression of the persons breeding who has bought a cat from you for that purpose.

It is really down to the individual breeder at the end of the day and if someone does not like the restrictions being placed then I think they should go elswhere, you cant change the sellers mind and they obviously must have reasons for the restrictions so it is upto them I guess.
I think people with good show cats would be more likely to place restrictions as one person said to me she does not sell many for breeding as she does not see why other breeders should benefit from her hard work and expense in developing good show cats? So it does seem the better the lines the more restrictions to expect. I would say though that maybe less emphasis should be placed on show quality and alittle more on overall health of lines as the two dont always go hand in hand. I am sure many breeders carry out line breeding or even inbreeding to produce more homozygous cats of consistent type but this can be of detriment to health if you start getting lethal recessive traits coming through in offspring. A good show cat does not always equal a hardy, breeding cat imo


----------



## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

I have to make a comment here as I am quite new to all this, and am expecting a few of you to bite my head off, but here goes.....Correct me if im wrong but how many of these cats actually go on to a life in the show ring? I would think not many. So if someone wants to breed what some of you call inferior cats as long as they are fit and healthy and they go to loving family homes what is the problem? 

Its not just cats that seem to be being bred to perfection causing in some cases severe traits that seriously effect health its happend accross the board on many animals where breeders say they are 'improving' the breed.

Yes I understand the importance of good genetics and for some its the be all and end all. But for most potential owners of non show cats all they want is a cat of a certain breed and minor inperfections dont matter.

Let the show breeders produce thier anatomically correct, perfectly marked beautiful cats for people who want that type.

Not every one out there wants that type of cat.


im now awaiting the backlash hmy:


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

No backlash from me. I agree with you to a point  As long as the cats are healthy both physically and genetically and have excellent temperaments (and obviously on the active) then there is no issue with breeding for pets. In reality, what passes for "type" at a show can change with the wind, whatever is in fashion at the moment. Also for breeding cats it's not so much what they look like themselves it's what they carry and have the potential to produce.

That said, any cat sold for breeding then their registered progeny do form part of the pedigree gene pool. Take my breeds for example - would a pet buyer really care if their ears where not quite in the right place or the right size, or they had a squint, tail fault or sternum or their eye colour was too pale or yellow when it should be green or colour or pattern not quite right? For the most part probably not. None of those affect the cats health. Any breeder could see those kittens turn up in litters from time to time.

However, if I breeder wants to breed oriental tabbies for example  a pet owner wouldn't care about the clarity of pattern but why deliberately churn out kittens with very poor tabby patterning to the point where that pattern is barely discernable  is there any point in that? Yellow eyed non descript patterned oriental with not great 'type'  visually what says he/she is an oriental tabby  apart from a bit of paper. As those kittens have the potential to form an ongoing part of the pedigree gene pool that could have a detrimental affect on tabby lines as a whole.

I think it's probably a case of degree where show purrfection being one extreme and barely discernable pedigree being the other with a correct average somewhere in the middle. I think if you are going to breed pedigrees even if you don't exhibit and all kittens go for pet then you should at least aim for the middle ground  else why breed a particular pedigree  breed moggies.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> Came across one breeder who a friend told me about who has horrendous restrictions on her breed cats ...think she is abit mad to be honest all pet kittens early neutered no exceptions, only one girl can be kept by the breeder for future breeding EVER!!! no boys can be kept and no active cats sold to anyone else to name a few things, how anyone can progress with these restrictions is beyound me.


It would be very interesting to know if she ever sells kittens for breeding!

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

sharon_gurney said:


> I have to make a comment here as I am quite new to all this, and am expecting a few of you to bite my head off, but here goes.....Correct me if im wrong but how many of these cats actually go on to a life in the show ring? I would think not many. So if someone wants to breed what some of you call inferior cats as long as they are fit and healthy and they go to loving family homes what is the problem?


I tend to agree. The gene pool is small enough in most breeds without insisting that only the top show cats ever get bred from. The overwhelming majority of kittens are sold as pets - to the best of my knowledge, in 18 years breeding I have only ever sold four cats that were shown. I am well aware that I am not breeding from top show quality cats - my best show cat has still not called despite being nearly 18 months old, four of my breeding cats can never be shown because they are early generations, one of my boys will make champion but is unlikely to get any further, and my only two girls, apart from my best show cat, that are eligible for showing, are both going to struggle even to make Champion. The aim, though, is to breed cats of better show quality than either parents. I have certainly managed this once so far, but perhaps only once. The best quality cat in terms of show quality I ever bred from produced kittens a few of which were as good as her but certainly none were better, I wish I could say that was because I didn't choose my stud very carefully. In fact there were so many restrictions on so many of the studs in that breed that in the end there really wasn't a great deal of choice.

Liz


----------



## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

sharon_gurney said:


> I have to make a comment here as I am quite new to all this, and am expecting a few of you to bite my head off, but here goes.....Correct me if im wrong but how many of these cats actually go on to a life in the show ring? I would think not many. So if someone wants to breed what some of you call inferior cats as long as they are fit and healthy and they go to loving family homes what is the problem?
> 
> Its not just cats that seem to be being bred to perfection causing in some cases severe traits that seriously effect health its happend accross the board on many animals where breeders say they are 'improving' the breed.
> 
> ...


I see your point but I also see the other side...

If one buys a not particular good example of a cat & that births more kittens of worse type then that gets worse & worse. Obviously colouring & type mean not much to a pet owner if they are healthy & have a great temperament but what makes a, say for example, Maine Coon a Maine Coon & not a Norwegian Forest Cat will soon start to disappear as no one is breeding to preserve that type so the fluffier ears disappear or the muzzle changes so much that you can't even be sure it is a Maine Coon without looking at the pedigree & hoping no one told a fib along the way & mated a non-Maine Coon to a Maine Coon.

Also, very few cats have a type that affects their health. The only one I can think of from the top of my head is that is accepted with the GCCF is Persian & even then they are trying to fix that particular problem.

Wide gene pools would be fantastic & there are plenty of cats that are NEARLY show potential, close enough to breed with the right stud to get decent kittens but the vast majority would or could cause problems. Who wants to breed an overbite or underbite into a breed, for example? :nonod:


----------



## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

hi all

Ive really enjoyed this discussion and its given me a little more faith in breeders. (As I started to think breeding was becoming a closed market) Ive listend to all side of the argument and there are points to agree and disagree. As said before breed standards and preferences change, and as long as pet breeders can find some middle ground and stop imposing some of these ridiculous restrictions on who, when and how to breed, the breed should remain fit, healthy and true to type.

When I start to breed with my queen I hope to be able to follow in some of your footsteps...as one or two of you have made good sense without going over the top

thanks


----------



## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

lizward said:


> It would be very interesting to know if she ever sells kittens for breeding!
> 
> Liz


Hi Liz
Yes she has done in the past to people silly enough to accept restrictions like this, but person who told me about her turned her down because the restrictions were unworkable. Fair enough she has imported all her cats and obviously wants to protect them to a certain degree but they are abit over the top!


----------



## magisragis (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi All

I do know that some breeders to put off certain people from buying from them have quoted unworkable restrictions. 

The most important part of the contract usually regarding breeding cats that I know of is that if ever the buyer can no longer keep the cat you have to get in touch with the original breeder or it can only be re-homed after neutering. This is to try and prevent breeding cats being sold from one breeder to another and to another and being passed all over the place all their lives. Something I disapprove of very strongly. Sometimes breeders have had to give up breeding but don't wish the lines to die out and usually place the cats accordingly so they can be carried on. I have no problem with that.

I can only speak of my own breed in that people do not restrict more on show lines because that really does not apply. Having a show winning cat does not mean you produce high quality cats from it. Not all breeding cats, although they can be fantastic type can be shown. The majority can't.

In all my own contracts, I can keep a girl for myself and then from that girl I can do what I wish. I have no problem at all with that.

margaret


----------

