# Holistic Medicine for Dogs



## FEWill (Sep 2, 2009)

Holistic medicine for dogs and some of the alternatives is still a very controversial subject. One side of the argument will claim that if these forms of treatments actually worked, they would be more widely used than they are. This side will also suggest that if herbs and like medications are used without the proper training as well as a full understanding, they can do a lot more harm to your dog than good. They will also contend that much like vitamins and minerals; they have not fully been tested or properly investigated for their full efficiency or safety.

Then there is the other side of the argument that will suggest and remind the objecting side that many of these treatments have been around for thousands of years and dogs survived and thrived. They will also argue that they are a much more natural way to heal a dog's body as compared to chemicals, synthetics, as well as preservatives found in modern drugs. Then they will suggest that these additives have not been around since the beginning of time, and they can do more harm than good.

However, despite both sides of the argument, the modern veterinary world, just like the modern medical world, is beginning to take some of these treatments a lot more seriously. In most cases, they are used as alternative treatments and they include homeopathic remedies, herbal medicine, as well as acupuncture.

Homeopathic remedies:

Holistic medicine for dogs and homeopathy are almost always misunderstood when it is used to describe any type of treatments. However, it is much different than herbal medicine. Originally introduced in the late 1800's by a German physician, it has one very basic philosophy; like cures like. This type of medical treatments will use a combination of medicine, natural plants, as well as minerals and vitamins again with one simply theory; the cause of the illness can also be used to cure the illness or disease.

These types of treatments can include caring for liver disease with a diet that includes low fat meats as they are much easier on the liver to digest, as well as avoiding foods that have a lot of preservatives and additives. Vitamins and minerals will also be used to restore the liver. Vitamins E, the B-complex, as well as chromium and selenium are used in natural treatments for a dog's heart. Natural amino acids such as L-carnitine helps a dog to process fat and help to energize the heart, and taurine helps to protect the heart from getting too much calcium and enhances cell membranes.

The benefits of vitamins and minerals can and does include most every part of your dog's body as these are just a few of the examples.

Herbal medicine:

Holistic medicine for dogs will next include herbal medicines that have been around since the beginning of time but are now starting to gain a lot of new interest, at least in the western world. The belief with this form of treatment is that instead of using drugs which may alter your dog's natural immune system, these types of treatments or remedies actually stimulate the immune system. Most all of these herbs are derived from plants and what the side that opposes them usually fails to mention, is that they are almost always part of a new drug or treatment. In fact, most of the new drugs were discovered and isolated from plants.

These types of treatments used in drugs can be very fast acting, but the natural forms are considered to be much safer because they are not nearly as potent and do not have the side effects that some drugs have.

The list of these herbs and the uses for dogs is quite extensive.

Calendula can be used for wound healing, and the herb Raspberry is often used to help with pregnancy. Echinacea is used as a natural way to stimulate your dog's immune system, and Milk thistle is used to treat liver disorders. Chamomile is most commonly used for wound helping as well as respiratory problems, and Gingko is used to improve memory, especially in older dogs and dogs that have any type of a head injury.

Holistic medicine for dogs and herbs will also include Lavender to help dogs that have a difficult time in sleeping, and Oats is used to reduce itching. It can also be used when you bath your dog as it will soften their hair coat. Yeast is often used as a natural supplement for your dog's skin, but is also extremely effective at stopping diarrhea. If your dog has a fever, the herbal treatment for this is Asian Ginseng, and Flaxseed is used for constipation as well as IBS, or irritable bowel syndrome.

Acupuncture treatment:

The next form of Holistic medicine for dogs is Acupuncture, which is also as old as any type of herbal treatment. It is an ancient method of pain control that causes the release of natural pain relieving chemicals is your dog's brain. The stimulus for this release is done with very fine needles that are placed at very strategic locations in their body. However, there is one thing that is very helpful for an owner to understand; the treatment is virtually painless for your dog.

This form of treatment is starting to gain a lot of momentum and is now officially recognized by both the American Veterinarian Medical Association as well as the World Health Organization. It is really a very simple process; however, not all dogs can have this treatment. They will first have to be examined by your veterinarian and if approved, the medical history of your dog will have to be given to the acupuncture professional. If he or she approves, your dog is a candidate.

Several needles will then be inserted into your dog's body, but they are so thin that your dog will virtually feel no pain at all. Your dog will be palpitated, which will involve shaking them slightly so they can find the path of what is referred to as energy meridian. They will than massage your dog to identify the weak and tender parts of their body. Once these points have been identified, the needles are inserted. The entire process may take only a few minutes, or in some cases, several minutes, but the treatment will never last very long.

There are several conditions as well as diseases that this form of holistic medicine for dogs can help. They include strengthening your dog's immune system to full capacity which will help to fight infections as well as allergies. It is also very helpful in curing neurological illness, reproductive issues, as well as several types of skin diseases. It is also been reported to help hip dysplasia, chronic digestive problems, as well as lick granuloma and epilepsy.

There is one other major misconception about this natural treatment; it is very expensive. On the average, the cost will be between sixty and two hundred dollars per session and most dogs will feel immediate relief after only one or two sessions. However, if the condition is severe or chronic, it can be as high as five hundred dollars. In some cases, this may end up being a lot cheaper than several veterinarian calls and conventional medications for your dog.

Summary:

Holistic medicine for dogs is still very controversial and both sides of the argument will try to prove their points. But there is one thing to remember in this argument; these treatments have been around for thousands of years and amazingly the world wide dog population survived without the modern day treatments. This is a fact that the opposing side may want to consider.

FAQs: Multivitamins for Dogs". Multivitamins for Dogs: General FAQs. Retrieved 2010-05-20.

Vitamins for your Dog". Vitamins for your Dog. Retrieved 2010-05-20.

American Journal of Acupuncture, (1973-) Published quarterly from 1840 Forty-First Avenue-Suite 102, P.O. Box 610, Capitola, CA 95010

Liquid Vitamins for Humans Cats and Dogs


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Interesting thread FEWill. Homeopathy is something that I keep coming across recently...

Interestingly, Professor Luc Montagnier, the French virologist who co-discovered HIV and who won the Nobel Prize in 2008, appears to have discovered the scientific basis for homeopathy...

_At a time when the British Medical Association is calling for an end to national funding for homeopathy and detractors are describing it as "nonsense on stilts", a Nobel prize-winning scientist has made a discovery that suggests that homeopathy does have a scientific basis after all._Nobel Prize Winner Prof Luc Montagnier Discovers Scientific Basis of Homeopathy

_In a recent study Professor Luc Montagnier, a French virologist who co-discovered HIV and who won the Nobel Prize in 2008, and his team report the results of a series of rigorous experiments investigating the electromagnetic properties of highly-diluted biological samples. _Nobel Prize winner reports effects of homeopathic dilutions - European Committee for Homeopathy

_A NOBEL laureate who discovered the link between HIV and AIDS has suggested there could be a firm scientific foundation for homeopathy. 
French virologist Luc Montagnier stunned his colleagues at a prestigious international conference when he presented a new method for detecting viral infections that bore close parallels to the basic tenets of homeopathy._http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...meopathy-a-boost/story-e6frg8y6-1225887772305


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

My breeder is a trained holistic therapist and she advocates herbal remedies and natural treatments 4 dogs, we call her the white witch, we do debate this on and off, i'm by no means a sceptic, I think it does have a place and i have used some of her remedies on both of mine with great results, remedies for kennel cough and fleas for example, no chemicals in sight and they do work, when I get time I would love to do more research on this subject


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Ive used accupuncture on one of my past dogs and it worked for her, would try it again if needed


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

This is all a bit confused though, isn't it FEWill? Vitamins are not part of the homeopathic treatment that you describe. Homeopathy is about dilutions and water memory, not about the power of vitamins. To some degree that bit would probably have fit better under your herbal treatment section. 

The herbal treatments. Well, brewer's yeast works on the coat because of its trace elements and vit bs, not because of it being brewer's yeast per se. So again, your discussion misses the point a little imo.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

If you want Holistic treatment from a qualified vet can I recommend Wiltshire Holistic Vet? She's been our vet for some time and does a fantastic job. She practices in Wiltshire and Hampshire.


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

The trouble with herbals - Bad Science

alternative medicine - Bad Science

Quackwatch

Homeopathy: The Ultimate Fake

A Special Message to Cancer Patients Seeking "Alternative" Treatments


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

Great post, Sandymere. I would post some more, but I think you've covered most of it with those!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I may be wrong but I think you will find katiefranke's links to be current whereas Sandymere's aren't. 

Havent checked them all but definately the case for the homeopathy.  (I have great interest in that old magic:thumbup


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I may be wrong but I think you will find katiefranke's links to be current whereas Sandymere's aren't.
> 
> Havent checked them all but definately the case for the homeopathy.  (I have great interest in that old magic:thumbup


Both sites are current and searchable, Bad science is ongoing with almost daily articles and a very active forum please join it and post your thoughts all contributors are welcomed there. Everything has effects but that is nothing to do with health or healing. As with many things i wish it worked but alas studies show that it has no effect beyond placebo. If dilution to a million times makes something effective then a cup of sea water would have dilutions of just about every ill there is and therefore be a cure i swallow a few gallons most surfing trips and I'm not cured.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Your homeopathic link was revised 23rd Aug 2009 

I will gracefully decline your invite to join the forum but thank you very much for the thought. 

I think one day all these words used to reason that homeopathy doesnt work, will have to be eaten, so will bide my time. Of course, I shall continue using it and reaping the benefits till then.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I am in total agreement with sandymere. If you are interested (even if you disagree) in the subject you may want to read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre (a UK human medical doctor)

A more lighthearted take:

YouTube - Tim Minchin: If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out (Take My Wife)


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Your homeopathic link was revised 23rd Aug 2009
> 
> I will gracefully decline your invite to join the forum but thank you very much for the thought.
> 
> I think one day all these words used to reason that homeopathy doesnt work, will have to be eaten, so will bide my time. Of course, I shall continue using it and reaping the benefits till then.


I find it interesting that, although the scientific community has performed tests on humans, I have yet to see any research which proves that homoeopathy is ineffective in animals. Indeed, the veterinary profession has a professional body devoted to homoeopathy and animal medicine is strictly regulated. Yet suitably qualified homoeopathic vets can prescribe such cures. If they didn't work then surely the RCVS would ban them? I am unaware of any 'proof' that any animal would be affected by the placebo effect which scientists dismiss homoeopathy with.

The current state of science 'disproves' homoeopathy. But at some time science thought the world was flat and the sun went round the earth. Things change - including much in the way of scientific 'proof'.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Then there is the British Veterinary Voodoo Society.

The British Veterinary Voodoo Society

That's all qualified vets, too.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I think it's one of those "each to their own" and "agree to disagree" situations


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> The current state of science 'disproves' homoeopathy. But at some time science thought the world was flat and the sun went round the earth. Things change - including much in the way of scientific 'proof'.


You are spot on there 

Medicine is notorious for it's vilification of new thought. 

When Ignaz Semmelweiss suggested that the high death rate (from puerperal fever) of women who had recently delivered babies was due to Drs not washing their hands between patients and dissecting bodies etc, he was called a charlatan by the profession 

From Wikipedia ... Ignaz Semmelweis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Efforts to reduce childbed fever*

Semmelweis discovered that cases of puerperal fever, a form of septicaemia also known as childbed fever, could be cut drastically if doctors washed their hands in a chlorine solution before gynaecological examinations, but could not explain why, as his discovery was prior to the germ theory of Louis Pasteur (published 1861).

While employed as assistant to the professor of the maternity clinic at the Vienna General Hospital in Austria in 1847, Semmelweis introduced hand washing with chlorinated lime solutions for interns who had performed autopsies. This immediately reduced the incidence of fatal puerperal fever from about 10 percent (range 5-30 percent) to about 1-2 percent. At the time, diseases were attributed to many different and unrelated causes. Each case was considered unique, just as a human person is unique. Semmelweis's hypothesis, that there was only one cause, that all that mattered was cleanliness, was extreme at the time, and was largely ignored, rejected or ridiculed. He was dismissed from the hospital for political reasons and harassed by the medical community in Vienna, being eventually forced to move to Pest.

Semmelweis was outraged by the indifference of the medical profession and began writing open and increasingly angry letters to prominent European obstetricians, at times denouncing them as irresponsible murderers. His contemporaries, including his wife, believed he was losing his mind, and in 1865 he was committed to an asylum. In an ironic twist of fate, he died there of septicaemia only 14 days later, possibly after being severely beaten by guards. Semmelweis's practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteur developed the germ theory of disease, offering a theoretical explanation for Semmelweis's findings. He is considered a pioneer of antiseptic procedures.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Yup! That's true, but things have moved on from then.

For homeopathy to work (and there HAVE been studies of it's use in animals, I shall try to find a link. The research was done using the double blind method-where neither the vet nor the owner knew if what they were getting was "real" homeopathy or a placebo. In these curcumstances homeopathy performed no better than placebo. Just as it does in humans) all the laws of physics would be proved wrong and that's not very likely.

The problem with all these "alternative" methods when used in dogs, is that you are relying on the owners reporting how the dogs were after the "treatment". Placebos work on owners too!


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Indeed there have been many studies that show placebo effect in animals going back a long way, Rosenthal et al have done some interesting work in this area - if you tell students they are testing 'maze bright' vs 'maze dull' rats, the 'maze bright' rats will actually finish faster. This may be because the rats respond to being treated differently.
(ROSENTHAL, R. & FODE, K.L. (1963) The effect of experimenter bias on the performance of the albino rat. Behavioral Science, 8, 183-89)
And the Nobel prize laureate, would this be the one?
The Nobel Prize winner and the unethical autism trial « gimpy's blog


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I think that the "proof of the pudding" is when owners (like myself) experience improved health in our dogs, after complementary treatment,after allopathic vet care failed miserably ...

Personally, I believe there is a place for both 

If something benefits my dogs and avoids the use of chemicals/drugs it's got to be worth using!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Ditto Amethyst.
Something else is the importance of finding the correct remedy. Presumably these tests are done using what is "thought" to be the correct remedy. From personal experience, this isnt always the case but when you do hit on it, then you see the results and unlike conventional medicine, the incorrect remedy has no ill effects.
Me and mine have benefited from homeopathy not placebo effects


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## FEWill (Sep 2, 2009)

Wow--some really great input.

It is very interesting to always see both sides of the topic. And most all topics will have 2 sides. That is what makes life and the pets that we love so much fun as well.

Frank


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

What I really object to is the ammount of money being made by "alternative" medicine.
Most supporters do not realise that this is a multi BILLION pound industry, preying on peoples ignorance* and fears.

*I am using this word in it's true meaning. I am most definatly NOT saying that people who are the end users of alt med are stupid. Please be clear about this.


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

Really worth reading everyone's opinions on this subject - something that I always puzzle on is why acupuncture is considered 'alternative' when it is so much older than current medicine, and whole countries have used it as their only form of medicine for thousands of years? Which is truly the 'alternative' then?!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

The evidence a to the efficacy of acupuncture is not convincing.

Professor Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh (a physicist) say in this book (which I would recommend to anyone interested. It is very impartial. Edzard Ernst is the Professor of Complimentary Medicine at Exeter University)



> By focusing on the increasing number of high-quality research papers, reliable conclusions from systematic reviews make it clear that acupuncture does not work for a whole range of conditions, except as a placebo.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> What I really object to is the ammount of money being made by "alternative" medicine.
> Most supporters do not realise that this is a multi BILLION pound industry, preying on peoples ignorance* and fears.


This did make me giggle, nay :lol:

The Pharmaceutical drug companies are the ones making the MEGA BUCKs, 

I used to be a nurse and had dealings with drug reps, it's a far bigger money spinner than complementary therapies will ever be .... seriously :scared:

The truth is that people like myself, who consider complementary therapies are neither ignorant or any more fearful than anyone else 

As I have said I worked as a RN for many years and had a pretty good knowledge of allopathic drugs, as well as, thier side affects and contra indications :eek6:

I saw enough to realise that while there is indeed a place for conventional medicine, there is also a time when the complementary approach is better ... far better  In my opinion.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Ditto Amethyst yet again

Another point to remember here is that homeopathic remedies are available waay before the drug companies can produce theirs and at a fraction of the price.

The first thing that springs to mind is the £'sss vets and drug companies make from standard innoculations. I went down the homeopathic route with Heidi and she has a lifetime immunity for £10. I also have remedies to hand should outbreaks occur nearby and I feel the need to top up her immunity.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

If it was all just harmless nonsense I'd be less inclined to be so hostile about it, but alternative medicine has been associated with deaths and serious long term damage to people. It is unregulated and (as I said before) preys on peoples fears-not least the fear of "big pharma" that they are so eager to spread.

I am a retired nurse and I have spent all my working life within the medical serives. I have never seen one jot of evidence to support their claims and I have seen lots of evidence of the harm they can cause

Homeopathy couple jailed over daughter's death | World news | The Guardian

Hepatitis induced by traditional Chinese herbs; possible toxic components.

How Quackery Harms Cancer Patients

This is just 3 pieces; a report of a notorious incident in Australia in the Gaurdian (remember, the homeopath was complicit in this as he was treating what was obviously a dying child who should have been referred to a hospital); a published paper and a report on a well known website.
I could provide published research till there was noone reading anymore. There's tons of evidence of the harm altmed can do, but I don't want to get heavy, so here is a humerous clip
YouTube - That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic A&E
:thumbup:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> If it was all just harmless nonsense I'd be less inclined to be so hostile about it, but alternative medicine has been associated with deaths and serious long term damage to people.


And allopathic medicine and drugs haven't? Take the time to research death and problems from pharmaceutical drugs and weep (Maybe start with Thalidomide if you want to consider " long term damage to people?) 

Thalidomide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In the late 1950s and early 1960s, more than 10,000 children in 46 countries were born with deformities such as phocomelia, as a consequence of thalidomide use.[12] The Australian obstetrician William McBride and the German pediatrician Widukind Lenz suspected a link between birth defects and the drug, and this was proved by Lenz in 1961"

Ultimately it's up to each person to decide what is best for themselves or their pets. I see treatments that would not be classed as "conventional" as complementary to, rather than an alternative to allopathic care.

It's about educating yourself, exploring what is available and then coming to a decision. It should be remembered that there are more enlightened traditionally trained doctors and vets who use complementary care now


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

As I said before black/white - agree to disagree


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> As I said before black/white - agree to disagree


Actually I'm rather grey as I believe there is a place for both :thumbup:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> It's about educating yourself


I couldn't have put it better myself! It's up to individuals to read up about these things before they subject themselves or their pets to treatment. There is no excuse in this day and age for just accepting something at face value-and that goes for GPs and vets too!
IMHO with vets-and especially facilities linked to universities--it's sometimes a case of "we do it because we can" rather than "we do it if we think we should".

Anecdote (which some people may agree with. Or not). On visiting the (big UK city university) Vet School with a friend we spoke in the waiting room to a gentleman with a very old wolfhound who had a horrendous scar, from her chest to her anus. The man said she was his beloved pet, was 12 years old and had cancer which had spread throughout her body. Despite that, he had put her through major, painful surgery and she was now getting chemotherapy in the hope that she may "last a few more months".
Just because they could didn't mean they should.
It upsets me to think about that poor dog.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Actually I'm rather grey as I believe there is a place for both

_Oh, I'm grey too - was referring to different views_


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Actually I'm rather grey as I believe there is a place for both
> 
> _Oh, I'm grey too - was referring to different views_


Yes, it's good to keep options open. We have a local vet who is marvelous, but also use a vet who uses homeopathy. Ultimately, you can be referred to any vet you choose who uses complementary therapies 

In the UK it's very strict, and rightly so, about who can and cannot diagnose and treat an animals. Good and ethical healers and therapists will also work within strict codes of conduct, they are limited in many ways as to what they can and cannot do. Much of the "problem" begins when unqualified people, try to diagnose and treat animals ... never a good thing


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Absolutly, Amethyst. In actual fact treatment for animals is more highly regulated than treatment for humans.
Anyone can set up shop and offer all sorts of treatments to people. So long as they don't masquerade as a medical doctor (they can - and do- refer to themselves as doctor so long as they don't call themselves a doctor of medicine), a registered nurse and a few other professions which are regulated by statute. Other than that they can be anyone with any (or no) qualifications. Be aware that there are lots of people with questionable qualifications, using altmed to make a quick buck and there's not a lot the law can do, because it's an unregulated field.

Caveat emptor--or something like that..

I'm going to my bed as I'm even boring myself now :001_cool:

Zzzzzzz......

BTW, I'm grey too.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> Absolutly, Amethyst. In actual fact treatment for animals is more highly regulated than treatment for humans.
> Anyone can set up shop and offer all sorts of treatments to people. So long as they don't masquerade as a medical doctor (they can - and do- refer to themselves as doctor so long as they don't call themselves a doctor of medicine), a registered nurse and a few other professions which are regulated by statute. Other than that they can be anyone with any (or no) qualifications. Be aware that there are lots of people with questionable qualifications, using altmed to make a quick buck and there's not a lot the law can do, because it's an unregulated field.
> 
> Caveat emptor--or something like that..
> ...


Old Shep, very true and indeed I am aware of all that, having worked as Registered Nurse for many years myself and now having trained in what would be considered complementary therapies 

It is important for the public to reaslise that ALL complementary health care professionals will be part of a governing body and that they will be fully insured to offer advice and give their particular healing modality. If they aren't or won't show details, walk away.

In any walk of life there will be good and bad, that includes Doctors and nurses (hey I worked with some!) that is also true of the holistic field of health care.

I think it's good to discuss these things as it makes people aware there are safe options and also how to avoid the unscrupulous ... 

Hope you slept well!


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

The issue of regulation is an interesting one - although you have to be a vet to offer alternative treatments to animals, many vets seem to be going to a weekend introductory course in Western Acupuncture and then offer acupuncture as a treatment option in their practice based on this tiny amount of training - it pays to ask about their training and see exactly what they have done. It's a bug bear of mine, this one, as I cannot see how anyone can seriously offer a good acupuncture treatment with only this level of training. Perhaps that's just my biased view...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Petloversdigest said:


> The issue of regulation is an interesting one - although you have to be a vet to offer alternative treatments to animals, many vets seem to be going to a weekend introductory course in Western Acupuncture and then offer acupuncture as a treatment option in their practice based on this tiny amount of training - it pays to ask about their training and see exactly what they have done. It's a bug bear of mine, this one, as I cannot see how anyone can seriously offer a good acupuncture treatment with only this level of training. Perhaps that's just my biased view...


I don't think it's biased at all, you make a good point! I wouldn't want acupuncture from a Practitioner that had only done a weekend course 

Yes, always ask vet about their qualification in holistic care and of course their experience


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

In answer to petloversdigest and Amethyst as to using acupuncture treatments without proper training I would bare in mind that a number of clinical trials have shown that it doesnt matter whether the practitioner is trained or not, the results are the same. 
Medicalisation - don't take it lying down. - Bad Science
Acupuncture treatment for pain: systematic review of randomised clinical trials with acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, and no acupuncture groups -- Madsen et al. 338 -- bmj.com

The placebo has its place but the smoke and mirrors behind which it is sold is a problem. Anyone can call themselves a practitioner and even set up courses to teach others. Membership of a group has no meaning as anyone can set up a group and call it a governing body so can call themselves a practitioner and be part of say the British school of professional acupuncturists which they themselves set up.
The alternative medicine/therapy sellers have brought about a lot of harm and death, Katie&franke links to prof Luc Montagnier as who denied the link between aids and HIV, said they could be treated with diet and started a following that ended in the terrible suffering and finally deaths of thousands of children, follow this link and see if you still think the alternative sellers are acting in the patients best interest. africa - Bad Science
These are the heroes of alternative medicine and so I will continue to battle it ands its pseudo scientific claims. Medicine has made mistakes but it keeps trying to get it right, when you go to a medical doctor, currently registered nurse, physio etc they will try to do what is best for you based on the best available evidence, when you go to someone that calls themselves a practitioner of alternative medicine they will do what is best for their pockets based on the opposite of best available evidence. 
Regards sandy.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Despite it's many failings the NHS (and I speak as someone who worked within the NHS and witnessed them) thankfully it is now starting to recognise the benefits of complementary therapy. Spiritual healing and Reiki is now being offered, within hospitals by some local authorities.

While healers are employed as part of the complementary therapies team in some hospitals, many more healers work free of any fees, with no thought of personal gain 

Many hospices now welcome complementary therapists, recognising how beneficial it is to their patients. Some are there in a paid capacity, many more are volunteers, giving freely of their time and skills!

Wonderful :thumbup:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Obviously, NEVER a substitute for professional vet care, but a great book for those of us interested in holistic health care for out dogs/pets 

Is this book ~ Natural Health Care For Pets by Richard Allport (Vet)

It introduces the reader to importance of a good diet etc but also how crystals, flower and gem essences, homeopathy, herbal medicine and more can be used to help your animals live a happy and healthier life.

Obviously not for everyone, but a great and safe introduction to complementary/holistic animal care. :thumbup:


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

It is interesting to see how medicine is percieved so differently from one person to another - it's a bit of a minefield to know where the truth lies, but I guess my view is that medicine is not static and some practitioners make a great contribution to moving things on whilst other just get wealthy - but ultimately that is the choice of each individual practitioner and they are bound to vary considerably, as with all walks of life.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

There are so many "registers" for alternative/complimentary healhcare out there and there is no way to know which are the most robust.
A friend of mine (to prove a point) managed to get her cat registered as a reiki practicioner!:eek6:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sorry to double post, but I thought it may be worth it to link to the following site, which will be of interest to anyone who wants to judge for themselves. It's an excellent site.

Sense About Science


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

But how do you know the cat isn't really a wonder at reiki........


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Oh she undoubtedly is! 
I had a cold last week and after she sat on my lap, my cold disappeared in only a week!

On a more serious note, there have been instances of homeopaths offering homeopathic "medicine" for malaria prophylaxis. They have also been jumping on the bandwaggon of parental fear and offering homeopathic "innoculation" for childhood diseases.

Dr Ron Behrens of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine has said
_"We've certainly had patients admitted to our unit with the malignant form of malaria who have been taking homeopathic remedies and without a doubt the reason that they were taking them and not effective drugs was the reason they had malaria." _

To give you some idea of how widespread this view is amoungst homeopaths, Simon Singh in his book (mentioned earlier) says
_"many homeopaths have a negative attitude towards immunization, so parents who are in regular contact with a homeopath may be less likely to immunize their child. To evaluate the extent of this problem, Edzard Ernst and Katja Schmidt at Exeter University conducted a revealing survey among UK homeopaths. Having obtained e-mail addresses from online directories, they sent an e-mail to 168 homeopaths in which they effectively pretended to be a mother asking for advice about whether or not to vaccinate her one-year-old child against measles, mumps and rubella (MMR). This was in 2002 when the controversy over MMR was subsiding and the scientific evidence was clearly in favour of vaccination. Of the 77 respondents, only two advised the mother to immunize, so it is clear that the overwhelming majority of homeopaths will not encourage immunization."_

Childhood immunisation has undoubtedly saved many millions of lives and it's nothing short of scandalous that anyone purporting to have the interests of people at their hearts should deny this. All for the sake of a quick buck.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think homeopathic remedies should be used in place of "proper" (can't think of a better word sorry) medicine. But if you believe it will help your pet to have needles stuck into it or reiki then fair enough use it your pet your choice. I don't believe in any of it though I don't think it has any affect beyond placebo whether that be on a person or a pet owner thinking their pet has improved because of it


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> On a more serious note, there have been instances of homeopaths offering homeopathic "medicine" for malaria prophylaxis. They have also been jumping on the bandwaggon of parental fear and offering homeopathic "innoculation" for childhood diseases.


Not to mention the number of people on this forum that have posted in the various threads about the possible risks of pet inoculation and suggesting that homoeopathy will provide the alternative. Would I consider this as a protection against leptospirosis for my dogs? I don't think so.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I think it is even more important to be very carefull with these medical "alternatives" when it's animals because they can't choose which treatment to accept- we are doing that on their behalf, and it is incumbent upon us to look very critically at their claims. There is no reason not to do this as there is a wealth of information out there (albeit almost all of it pointing to the fact that they are useless).

There was a case fairly recently (I can't find it) where a vet, who practiced homeopathy, sold his practice to another vet. An existing client of the practice had a longstanding problem with her dog which had very bad dermatistis. The new vet was appalled at the condition of the dog, which had lost all it's hair and was covered in open, weeping sores. It transpired that the dog had been like this for months while being treated with homeopathic treatments from the previous vet. The dog was extremely depressed and was in lots of pain.
The new vet prescribed steroids and painkillers and the dog recovered within a few weeks. The new vet went on to report the previous vet to the RCVS.
I'm pretty sure I saw this in a dog magasine, but I can't remember for sure.

The whole issue of homeopathic vet treatment is on dodgey ground.

Extract from a letter to the Veterinary Times [Volume 34, no. 36, 20th September 2004, page 39.]



> Veterinary surgeons may like to know that there are currently no homoeopathic remedies authorised for use as veterinary medicines in the UK.
> 
> Yours faithfully,
> 
> ...


Another piece from the Veterinary Times [Volume 35, no. 3, 7th February 2005, page 39.]



> Homoeopaths 'guilty of deliberate fraud'
> Dear Editor,
> 
> I have watched the debate regarding the merits, or otherwise, of homoeopathy and finally feel moved enough to contribute from my personal experience.
> ...


As I have said before there is lots of information out there. If you can be bothered to look.


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I don't think homeopathic remedies should be used in place of "proper" (can't think of a better word sorry) medicine. But if you believe it will help your pet to have needles stuck into it or reiki then fair enough use it your pet your choice. I don't believe in any of it though I don't think it has any affect beyond placebo whether that be on a person or a pet owner thinking their pet has improved because of it


I'd agree Of course there is a place for the placebo effect, but it needs to be seem in light of what it is, rather than claiming cures and outcomes that are not realistic and lead to it being used by unscrupulous people. So often we hear that these alternative treatment work an if they were investigated properly it would be proven but in fact they have been investigated.
Looking at the most popularly promoted methods we find that acupuncture, after thirty years, over 400 clinical trials, and 33 comprehensive literature reviews of those trials, only two specific conditions were found affected by acupuncture more than sham procedures. But even those effects are minimal; they are not superior to standard medical methods, and they remain implausible and unpredictable. They will probably not be confirmed because of their results are best explained by biased experimental errors.
After 100 years and many trials, chiropractic manipulation has not been proven to influence the course of any disease and has not even been proven effective for treating back pain [2]. As for homeopathy, after 200 years and hundreds of studies, researchers cannot prove an effect for any homeopathic remedy for any condition. After a dozen studies, prolonged survival from psychological support for cancer patients has been essentially disproved. Herb product contents cannot be controlled, and many ingredients have been proved harmful. Some products have been adulterated with common pharmaceutical drugs that account for their apparent effects. If supplement marketers were held responsible for product effects, what more would there be to research? (Quackwatch Why the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) Should Be Defunded ) the science is out there for all to see.
The result of alternative cures Matthias Rath - steal this chapter - Bad Science


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I don't think homeopathic remedies should be used in place of "proper" (can't think of a better word sorry) medicine. But if you believe it will help your pet to have needles stuck into it or reiki then fair enough use it your pet your choice. I don't believe in any of it though I don't think it has any affect beyond placebo whether that be on a person or a pet owner thinking their pet has improved because of it


Fair enough 

And yes, all about choice and doing what you believe to be best for your animal ...

I don't think any complementary vet (or human) care should be seen as a simple alternative to alopathic medicine, but complementary too, another option to consider. Often these things work well alongside each other, other times on their own.

Dog vaccination, while it has it's place, is a prime example of poor veterinary practise based on flawed/poor research, interestingly and not surprisingly encouraged by big vaccine manufacturing companies 

We were all "brainwashed" backed up by medical "research" into believing it had to be done yearly, but now, it's 3 yearly, one day they may have to admit dogs never need vaccinating beyond puppy shots 

But as always, it's down to the individual as to what they do for their beloved animals. Myself I'll take the holistic approach alongside initial vaccinations. Give the dog's own immune system a chance to keep it healthy, rather than depend as many (with best intentions) do, on vaccines whose routine use and efficiency is doubtful at the very best now ...

If anyone does wish to explore homeopthic nosodes for their dogs, please only do so after discussing it with a vet who practices homeopathy. They will be able to give you all the information you need to come to an informed decision :thumbup:

British Assoc. of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> There are so many "registers" for alternative/complimentary healhcare out there and there is no way to know which are the most robust.
> A friend of mine (to prove a point) managed to get her cat registered as a reiki practicioner!:eek6:


She could of probably got him or her a doctorate too if she'd looked hard enough online ...

I really would like to see her to try and register the cat with an internationally recognised organisation as say "The Healing Trust" or The UK Reiki Federation.

I doubt she will get far


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

The really alarming thing with the research that is often quoted to support or disprove a medical treatment is that a gifted statistician can spin the evidence whichever way they want to - so I guess more convincing for me is the feedback from people who have tried complimetary therapies themselves, and it does seem to be an huge number reporting successes...


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Petloversdigest said:


> The really alarming thing with the research that is often quoted to support or disprove a medical treatment is that a gifted statistician can spin the evidence whichever way they want to - so I guess more convincing for me is the feedback from people who have tried complimetary therapies themselves, and it does seem to be an huge number reporting successes...


and that's why people like Ben Goldacre write about these things.
It's not difficult to learn how to look critically at research (any good science degree should cover this, although IMHO it should also be taught at school). 
It's not rocket science and it helps you to make informed decisions about all sorts of stuff (because lots of organisations and individuals are able to put a spin on their products).
Knowledge is power (as they say!)


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Petloversdigest said:


> The really alarming thing with the research that is often quoted to support or disprove a medical treatment is that a gifted statistician can spin the evidence whichever way they want to - so I guess more convincing for me is the feedback from people who have tried complimetary therapies themselves, and it does seem to be an huge number reporting successes...


Yes, indeed, the "proof of the pudding is in the eating" :thumbup:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> and that's why people like Ben Goldacre write about these things.
> It's not difficult to learn how to look critically at research (any good science degree should cover this, although IMHO it should also be taught at school).
> It's not rocket science and it helps you to make informed decisions about all sorts of stuff (because lots of organisations and individuals are able to put a spin on their products).
> Knowledge is power (as they say!)


Any good history course should teach it too. People manipulate statistics for their own ends making their products seem better etc. You need to learn to look at any stats or reports critically


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I couldn't agree more, Nicky. It also helps you to sort the wheat from the chaff when reading news and magazine articles.

I recently complained to the BBC about a report in Landward (I think it may only show in Scotland). Alarm bells rang for me because the guest presenter for a piece on lobster farming was described as a "nutritionist". She went on to give erroneous, and dangerous, information (she was baisically saying that lobster was a "superfood"-there is no such thing).

Anyone who has been diagnosed with high cholesterol levels will know that they should avoid all shellfish. They would have been told this by their GP or dietician.

"Nutritionist" is a self awarded title. Anyone can (and do!) call themselves a nutritionist.


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I couldn't agree more, Nicky. It also helps you to sort the wheat from the chaff when reading news and magazine articles.
> 
> I recently complained to the BBC about a report in Landward (I think it may only show in Scotland). Alarm bells rang for me because the guest presenter for a piece on lobster farming was described as a "nutritionist". She went on to give erroneous, and dangerous, information (she was baisically saying that lobster was a "superfood"-there is no such thing).
> 
> ...


Indeed! yes I'm a member of the British Canine Nutritionist Council (BCNC) and for a small fee you can be to. 
Send cash to (£50 SHOULD COVER IT)
Mr S Mere, 
c/o 
Out the back, 
On a long board, 
Sandymere, 
Devon.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> Indeed! yes I'm a member of the British Canine Nutritionist Council (BCNC) and for a small fee you can be to.
> Send cash to (£50 SHOULD COVER IT)


Wow! I didn't know I was in such highly esteemed (virtual) company! The British Canine Nutritionist Council sounds very kosher. Will I be able to put BCNC after my name, too then?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Oh there's really no need or niche for canine nutritionists of any type ... 

Simply speak to the average vet nurse or vet and they'll sell you a nice bag of complete dry food from their lovely displays. Full of all kinds of yummy (if you are a dog), but dubious ingredients. If you are lucky, you'll find a few chemicals/preservatives in there for good measure too 

Vet nurses are wonderful to speak to about dog nutrition, they go on courses funded by the big dog food manufacturers, manufactures that make the very same products sold in the surgery would you belive! What a coincidence :lol:

Of course it's all approved by the manufacturers trials and research, which is why so many thinking dog owners won't feed it to their pets :thumbdown: 

Yuck.


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> Wow! I didn't know I was in such highly esteemed (virtual) company! The British Canine Nutritionist Council sounds very kosher. Will I be able to put BCNC after my name, too then?


Yes but I was going for a small c ie BcNc, thought it looked prettier :thumbup:

On a slightly more serious note a number of posts have questioned the validity of research into alternative medicine and suggested that it's all just stats. The outcomes are a little big to hide in states and doing so is just another case of smoke and mirrors to hide behind, basically a common behavior of pseudo science. The link helps to see common signs of this.
http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/07/seven-warning-signs-of-bogus-science.html
http://skepdic.com/pseudosc.html


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## [email protected] (Nov 22, 2010)

When it comes to diets, its a difficult one. I used to work for a pet food company that specialised in training the veterinary world about small animal nutrition. 25 years ago the diets available then were awful, flaky stuff that looked like it had been swept up off the barn floor! When we were able to visit a local abbattoir and get quality meat/tripe for our dogs/cats it was so much easier. I have over the years visited a few pet food manufacturers factories so know what goes into a lot of the diets available out there. Some pet food manufacturers are very passionate and rightly so about their ingredients and recognise that with old practices, problems were created. It would be great if some of the regulations within pet food manufacturing were applied to the human food market. Anyway, an interesting topic for discussion but hope I havent bored anyone...Merry Christmas !!:thumbup:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> When it comes to diets, its a difficult one. I used to work for a pet food company that specialised in training the veterinary world about small animal nutrition. 25 years ago the diets available then were awful, flaky stuff that looked like it had been swept up off the barn floor! When we were able to visit a local abbattoir and get quality meat/tripe for our dogs/cats it was so much easier. I have over the years visited a few pet food manufacturers factories so know what goes into a lot of the diets available out there. Some pet food manufacturers are very passionate and rightly so about their ingredients and recognise that with old practices, problems were created. It would be great if some of the regulations within pet food manufacturing were applied to the human food market. Anyway, an interesting topic for discussion but hope I havent bored anyone...Merry Christmas !!:thumbup:


Of course you haven't bored anyone, interesting thoughts. Holistic pet care must surely begin with attention to diet 

Merry Christmas to you too :biggrin:


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Looks like Shep and I are not the only ones worried about dodgy health claims for animal medicines.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/animal-welfare/-voodoo-pet-remedies-face-clampdown-$21386326.htm


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

The link didn't work for me, Sandymere, but I searched the site and found it. I'll post it here so it can be shared.

'Voodoo' pet remedies face clampdown 
Homeopathic 'alternative' treatments are being targeted by the government 
By politics.co.uk staff

Homeopathic remedies to your pets ailments are set to be heavily targeted under government plans.

The Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) is looking to scrutinise products and treatments not cleared by scientific testing which might put pets 'at risk'.

John Fitzgerald, VMO's director of operations, said: "Some of these products are claiming to be effective and safe when no scientific evidence has been presented to us to show they are.

"Animal owners have a right to know if a product does what it claims. The products claim to treat diseases which can cause serious welfare problems and in some circumstances kill animals if not properly treated. So in some cases owners are giving remedies to their pets which don't treat the problem."

Among the offending 'alternative' remedies being peddled which are to come under VMO's gaze are herbal remedies purported as curing pets of worms and so-called 'nosodes' - pseudo-vaccinations made from diseased animal tissues.

Supplements claiming to improve your pet's intelligence or cure diseases will also be subjected to the spotlight, as manufacturers are asked to provide evidence that their products are safe to use and perform the advertised functions.

Companies which continue to sell products not up to standard will be required to rebrand them to make clear to customers that they hold no medicinal value.

The campaign was welcomed by British Veterinary Association (BVA) president Harvey Locke, who added: "As veterinary surgeons we rely on the use of safe, effective and quality medicines for the health and welfare of animals under our care - and there must always be sound scientific evidence to back up medicinal claims made by the manufacturer of any product.

"Some of these unauthorised products may at the least be ineffective and at worst could cause harm because serious life-threatening diseases may go undiagnosed. We would urge animal owners always to check with their veterinary surgeon before giving any remedy or supplement to their pet."and not before time, although this seems to be another case of animals being better protected from unproven or disproven treatments than humans


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That's good. Any medical procedures or medicines holistic or not should be carefully controlled.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

:thumbup:

I just wish the medical powers-that-be were as concerned with the efficacy of treatments as the vet powers-that-be.
Which if you think about it is a bit strange, because vets are making millions of money out of homeopathy (I posted a link about this), whereas GPs aren't.

Found this, which some people may find interesting


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I just wish the medical powers-that-be were as concerned with the efficacy of treatments as the vet powers-that-be.
> Which if you think about it is a bit strange, because vets are making millions of money out of homeopathy (I posted a link about this), whereas GPs aren't.
> ...


The Bad Science Forum • View topic - Herbal medicine and Codex alimentarius

The links to Chinese herbal medicine containing real unprescribed real medicines is interesting.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I can't understand why someone would take an unproven herbal remedy, where the contents cannot be verified, the doseage is unknown and the active ingredient is contaminated with whatever else that plant happens to contain, instead of a pharmceutical grade extract of the active ingredient from that herb (or a molecularly similar laboratory produced version) where the dosage is known, the side effects/contraindications are printed on the box, the contents are verified, there are no "unknown" ingredients.

I'd rather buy asprin from Tesco than chew of some willow bark for my headache.

Thanks for the links BTW :thumbup:


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I can't understand why someone would take an unproven herbal remedy, where the contents cannot be verified, the doseage is unknown and the active ingredient is contaminated with whatever else that plant happens to contain, instead of a pharmceutical grade extract of the active ingredient from that herb (or a molecularly similar laboratory produced version) where the dosage is known, the side effects/contraindications are printed on the box, the contents are verified, there are no "unknown" ingredients.
> 
> I'd rather buy asprin from Tesco than chew of some willow bark for my headache.
> 
> Thanks for the links BTW :thumbup:


I tried a few herbs when I was younger, thought I could fly, these days I just walk on water


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't take an unproven remedy but some people do in the belief that it's natural so it's automatically better and safe. Whereas of course it's not always


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Hundreds of people die, every year, from taking medicines prescribed from a doctor, with thousands more suffering "serious, suspected adverse reaction to the drugs they were prescribed." 
See below and it seems to be on the increase? 

But never mind, at least the drugs have been through extensive tests and proclaimed "safe" to use 

Not suggesting anyone should never take prescribed drugs, just suggesting they do so with caution and do a little research about the side effects, contraindications and drugs safety record :scared:

Indeed, knowledge is power ...

Taken from Telegraph newspaper 2007

Prescription drug deaths double in a decade
By Joanna Corrigan 12:01AM BST 22 Oct 2007

Deaths from adverse reactions to prescription drugs have more than doubled in 10 years, new figures show.

Statistics from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) reveal 973 people died from suspected serious side-effects last year, compared to 382 in 1996.

The MHRA figures also show there were 9,801 cases between May and December last year of patients having a serious, suspected adverse reaction to the drugs they were prescribed.

Experts fear an increasing number of such drugs and a lack of training could be contributing to the rise in deaths. Dr Peter Maguire, of the British Medical Association, said the figures should be a "wake-up call". He also questioned why trainee doctors were being taught less pharmacology.

Prof Saad Shakir, the director of the drug safety research unit at Southampton University, called for a greater emphasis on drug safety training.

Doesn't make happy or particularly reassuring reading does it ... I wonder what the record is like for veterinary drugs? If vets are as happy to report reactions in the routine drugs they prescribe as they are to report vaccine reactions/complications, it won't make accurate reading ...


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't think anyone is saying that pharmaceuticals are without side effects. The difference with pharmaceuticals is that there is a process whereby adverse effects are reported. This is why some drugs are withdrawn from use.
Now, I'm not asserting that this system is without it's flaws, but it is much better than that used by altmed. Which is absolutly nothing. Zilch. Nada.

For homeopathic preperations you wouldn't expect any adverse effects because they don't contain anything AT ALL, but for chinese medicine and herbal medicines and junk sold over the counter in the likes of Holland & Barett the way the public find out there may be problems is when people report to their A&E departments with severe reactions and these can be traced back to a disproven/unproven remedy.

From The European Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology.
*Side-effects of complementary and alternative medicine*
*Abstract*
Complementary and alternative medicine are increasingly used to diagnose or treat allergic diseases, and numerous studies have reported benefits of this type of medicine. This article presents a review of the literature on risks of these methods. The potential sensitizing capacity of numerous herbal remedies may lead to allergic contact dermatitis and more rarely to IgE-mediated clinical symptoms. Mechanical injuries may be observed following acupuncture leading to pneumothorax, cardiac tamponade or spinal injury. Infectious complications after acupuncture include hepatitis and bacterial endocariditis. Organ toxicity has been observed associated with various herbal preparations involving the liver, kidneys, and the heart. Some herbs may have cancerogenic properties. Severe nutritional deficiencies can occur in infants and small children given strict alternative diets, resembling 'kwashiorkor'. Finally, among other miscellaneous adverse effects, adulteration with steroids, and herbal and drug interactions are discussed. The pattern of side-effects is similar to that observed by the use of conventional medicine. Therefore, caution may be justified using both conventional and unconventional methods. Only if the benefit is proven and the side-effects are established, should a given method be chosen.Source

Side-effects of complementary and alternative medicine - Niggemann - 2003 - Allergy - Wiley Online Library


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I and junk sold over the counter in the likes of Holland & Barett the way the public find out there may be problems is when people report to their A&E departments with severe reactions and these can be traced back to a disproven/unproven remedy.
> 
> [/url]


"and junk sold over the counter in the likes of Holland & Barett" :lol:

That is your opinion 

Comments like this would indeed be funny, if it were not that it kind of infers that the people who choose to shop there are, well, uninformed idiots 

Many, certainly regular customers, shop there because we find safe, often natural products that allow us to improve our general health and well being and much as it might surprise you, we aren't all sitting in accident and emergency departments every other day as a result  Indeed I've never had to visit as a result!

Generalising ~ It's all rather sad that some people, perhaps because of irrational or rather exaggerated fear (I do not doubt some alternative methods need great care, but would defend a persons right to use them, unless illegal) feel they need to make it their "mission" to try and pursuade others that it's wrong to use complementary care 

In my experience the people who have taken/explored the "holistic healing" area, are thinking people who have researched and considered their choice 

Thankfully complementary care is becoming increasingly available, both in hospitals, hospices and many therapists offer low cost "clinics" at womens centres etc. Long may freedom of choice continue :thumbup:

Aside ~ For those interested in animal healing, I can recommend "The Animal healer" by Elizabeth Whiter, not a how to book, but an amazing read. Elizabeth, uses healing, herbs and oils and works along side vets, on referral from them only. Good to read about enlightened vets


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Well said Amethyst - I couldnt have put it better myself.

I bowed out a while back. 
The lights came on and I realised, I dont have to justify myself to anyone or convince them of my opinions.


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

Re: Side-effects of complementary and alternative medicine Abstract that was quoted, I read this with some disbelief - a long list of potential problems isn't helpful unless the percentage instance of these occurances is included - saying something could potentially happen but never has versus something always happens with a given treatment presents a very different picture! Keeping everyone informed is more helpful than simply pointing our what could go wrong.
Regarding book, I would highly recommend 'Angel' by USA vet Donna Kelleher for some very heartwarming tales of holistic animal treatment and sensible comment throughout on this subject. I really enjoyed it. :thumbup:

Ps - can anyone let me know how to add a quote within my post - I can't quite figure it out yet!!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Petloversdigest said:


> Re: Side-effects of complementary and alternative medicine Abstract that was quoted, I read this with some disbelief - a long list of potential problems isn't helpful unless the percentage instance of these occurances is included - saying something could potentially happen but never has versus something always happens with a given treatment presents a very different picture! Keeping everyone informed is more helpful than simply pointing our what could go wrong.
> Regarding book, I would highly recommend 'Angel' by USA vet Donna Kelleher for some very heartwarming tales of holistic animal treatment and sensible comment throughout on this subject. I really enjoyed it. :thumbup:
> 
> Ps - can anyone let me know how to add a quote within my post - I can't quite figure it out yet!!


left click mouse and drag over text to be quoted , then left click on the word quote!


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

dexter said:


> let click mouse and drag over text to be quoted , then left click on the word quote!


OOh - got it! Thanks very much - I feel less of a beginner now!:thumbup:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Petloversdigest said:


> OOh - got it! Thanks very much - I feel less of a beginner now!:thumbup:


LOL you welcome


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Hundreds of people die, every year, from taking medicines prescribed from a doctor, with thousands more suffering "serious, suspected adverse reaction to the drugs they were prescribed."
> See below and it seems to be on the increase?
> 
> But never mind, at least the drugs have been through extensive tests and proclaimed "safe" to use
> ...


No but as shep states there is a process for assessing this but that is not the case for alternative nostrums. A case in point were a couple of hundred women ended up with kidney failure from taking herbal diet pills that contained aristolochia, some ended on dialysis and some developed cancer, and the herbalists are even poisoning themselves. 
--

But as you have done the "reseach" i expect you are aware of this and all the others I could link to.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> allow us to improve our general health and well being and much as it might surprise you, we aren't all sitting in accident and emergency departments every other day as a result Indeed I've never had to visit as a result!


A perfect example of a logical fallacy!!



> people who have taken/explored the "holistic healing" area, are thinking people who have researched and considered their choice


I am still waiting for someone (anyone) to post a link to a credible piece of research which supports altmed.



> Thankfully complementary care is becoming increasingly available, both in hospitals, hospices and many therapists offer low cost "clinics" at womens centres etc.


Really? 
You are, therefore clearly unaware of the closing of Tunbridge Wells Homeopathic Hospital; that the BMA (British Medical Association) has called for a complete ban of homeopathy within the NHS; that the efficacy of acupuncture is increasingly being called into question and, following Simon Singh's fantastic result in the High Court, chiropractic practicioners have had to withdraw most of their claims.



> Long may freedom of choice continue


While it's my taxes which are being used to pay for this quackery, I shall continue to oppose it.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Petloversdigest said:


> R
> Regarding book, I would highly recommend 'Angel' by USA vet Donna Kelleher for some very heartwarming tales of holistic animal treatment and sensible comment throughout on this subject. I really enjoyed it. :thumbup:


I have read this book too and it's very well written. Donna sounds a wonderful vet, hopefully we shall see more like her 

Angel - Miracles of Animal Healing - Donna Kelleher - Healing Animals

I believe holistic veterinary medicine will become more popular and we shall see more and more vets taking an interest in this field. My regular vets have always been fine about referring our animals to see vets specialising in complementary areas. They also know I use flower essences and hands on healing. Thankfully I have open minded vets who realise many owners expect more for their animals than the obligatory antibiotic and anti inflammatory jab


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

:nono: Clearly you've not read anything I've posted, have you?

Because I have refuted every claim you have made on behalf of altmed and you have been unable to back up any that you have made. :mad2:



I'm done now :nonod:


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> :nono: Clearly you've not read anything I've posted, have you?
> 
> Because I have refuted every claim you have made on behalf of altmed and you have been unable to back up any that you have made. :mad2:
> 
> I'm done now :nonod:


Don't need to read with healing hands:thumbup:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

"Hands on Healing for Pets" by Margrit Coates is a lovely book for those who want to explore and experience animal healing for themselves. It's written in a clear and easy to understand manner, I love this book :thumbup:

Maybe not classed as "holistic medicine" as such, but certainly holistic animal healing 

Below is Margrit's website, for those interested ... Details of all her books can be found here!

Margrit Coates :: World Renowned Animal Healer for animal healing


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

always selling stuff, these altmed types


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> always selling stuff, these altmed types


Many give their time freely 

I help at a healing centre where the public pay a £3.00 fee/donation to help cover hire of centre/tea/coffee/biscuits.

The Practitioners and healers are all volunteers, receive no payment, simply attend so that those who may not ordinarily be able to afford or access complimentary therapies, may do so.

I have friends (healers and therapists) who volunteer in local hospice and animal rescue centres, again at no charge 

Yes, as you can see, us/these altmed types are all money grabbers  :lol:


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Many give their time freely
> 
> I help at a healing centre where the public pay a £3.00 fee/donation to help cover hire of centre/tea/coffee/biscuits.
> 
> ...


Just because something is free doesnt mean it is good! Many will look to gain the trust of the most vulnerable in our society, whether they or their pets are ill, and then use that trusts to take advantage. Others offer a service to gain personal credit/validation for themselves, without real regard to those the treat, and in doing so discourage the use of proper, valid intervention. Many hospice type establishments will allow simple therapies to take place as the placebo effect has its place and also, perhaps more importantly, they then have controls of the situation and so reduce the risk of less than ethical people introducing harmful interventions or persuading patients to stop proven medical treatment.

How Quackery Harms Cancer Patients


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

_I help at a healing centre where the public pay a £3.00 fee/donation to help cover hire of centre/tea/coffee/biscuits.

The Practitioners and healers are all volunteers, receive no payment, simply attend so that those who may not ordinarily be able to afford or access complimentary therapies, may do so. _

That sounds brilliant. Wish we had something similar here.:thumbup:

Alternative medicines really interest me
Perhaps I should consider going on some courses


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> _I help at a healing centre where the public pay a £3.00 fee/donation to help cover hire of centre/tea/coffee/biscuits.
> 
> The Practitioners and healers are all volunteers, receive no payment, simply attend so that those who may not ordinarily be able to afford or access complimentary therapies, may do so. _
> 
> ...


It's a lovely place and as you can imagine very popular with everyone who attends, practitioners and clients! We offer reiki, reflexology, spiritual healing, crystal healing, indian head massage and shiatsu 
We usually have a queue of people waiting to be seen and the centre has a good reputation as it is very well run.

There is a wonderfully positive and supporting atmosphere, always feel as if I am floating on air when I leave! Unfortunately we cannot give hands on healing to animals there as they are not allowed in the hall we use. However it's something I'd love to do one day, once qualified as a healer and if I can find an appropriate venue.

Good luck if you decide to go ahead and train in the complementary therapy field, you'll not regret it


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## bevstretton (Jan 12, 2010)

Hello FEWill
sorry have not been on forum for sometime now l do .like the features you put on can l just say within the past 2 years more doctors & vets are training to use Homoeopathy for their clients due to the demand asked once considered a poor mans medicine, because people do not wish to add more chemicals into their blood and this includes their animals, its good too see animals aswell as humnas get better after holistic therapies, peole forget that manufactured medicines do not always work, l have been so busy in my area because more vets are calling on my services l have so many happy cats/dogs that can walk now without pain, have healed many skin conditions l forget have recommendations from my stockists that their customers do send my stock abroad, natural medicines given by someone who is quailified to do so will ot harm your pet, but do not take it upon yourself to try seek good advice first as like all medincines herbs are dangerous if not used correctly

Happy Christmas everyone


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

We got an email at work today about this very subject, along with the link below which may be of interest:

Alternative pet remedies: Government clampdown « Defra News


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

Interesting link - I am bemused by the implication in the news item that this will radically improve animal welfare - I can think of a few other things off the top of my head which might make far bigger differences...I must be getting cynical in my old age but I feel like the government only make things worse when they decide to interfere with things that are not broken in the first place (schools come to mind..)


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

BBC News - Alternative remedies 'dangerous' for kids says report 
This is but the tip of the iceberg so perhaps Governmen intervention is long over due, one child is one to many.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11277990
basically if its killing people it's killing animals.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Petloversdigest said:


> Interesting link - I am bemused by the implication in the news item that this will radically improve animal welfare - I can think of a few other things off the top of my head which might make far bigger differences...I must be getting cynical in my old age but I feel like the government only make things worse when they decide to interfere with things that are not broken in the first place (schools come to mind..)


Wise words :thumbup:

Yes, it's a shame that the government won't tackle REAL welfare issues, one I would like to see them take seriously is puppy farming ... And that's just for starters


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

I agree that puppy farming might be top of the list - I am hearing more and more about it lately - I guess now money is tight it has become more attractive as a source of income, and the welfare side gets more worrying by the day. A bit of a dampner to our Christmas spirits.


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Denialism?
More info in the link and a quote for those not wishing to follow.
:arf:

"How to be a denialist Martin McKee, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who also studies denial, has identified six tactics that all denialist movements use. "I'm not suggesting there is a manual somewhere, but one can see these elements, to varying degrees, in many settings," he says (The European Journal of Public Health, vol 19, p 2). 1. Allege that there's a conspiracy. Claim that scientific consensus has arisen through collusion rather than the accumulation of evidence. 2. Use fake experts to support your story. "Denial always starts with a cadre of pseudo-experts with some credentials that create a facade of credibility," says Seth Kalichman of the University of Connecticut. 3. Cherry-pick the evidence: trumpet whatever appears to support your case and ignore or rubbish the rest. Carry on trotting out supportive evidence even after it has been discredited. 4. Create impossible standards for your opponents. Claim that the existing evidence is not good enough and demand more. If your opponent comes up with evidence you have demanded, move the goalposts. 5. Use logical fallacies. Hitler opposed smoking, so anti-smoking measures are Nazi. Deliberately misrepresent the scientific consensus and then knock down your straw man. 6. Manufacture doubt. Falsely portray scientists as so divided that basing policy on their advice would be premature. Insist "both sides" must be heard and cry censorship when "dissenting" arguments or experts are rejected."

denialism blog


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Petloversdigest said:


> I agree that puppy farming might be top of the list - I am hearing more and more about it lately - I guess now money is tight it has become more attractive as a source of income, and the welfare side gets more worrying by the day. A bit of a dampner to our Christmas spirits.


So True ...


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

sandymere said:


> Denialism?
> More info in the link and a quote for those not wishing to follow.
> :arf:
> 
> ...


There is one thing missing here Sandymere, which is so true of this thread. Ignore the arguments of those who are critical and don't enter into a dialogue. Shame.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> There is one thing missing here Sandymere, which is so true of this thread. Ignore the arguments of those who are critical and don't enter into a dialogue. Shame.


There is no dialogue to enter into. Simply links posted and statements made 

Personally I respect everyones right to decide whether or not they choose to consider holistic health care for their animals :thumbup:

Okay, off to have some of my home made organic garlic and honey remedy I made last night for my cough .... dangerous though it may be to self treat and take herbal/natural remedies :scared: :lol:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

bevstretton said:


> Hello FEWill
> sorry have not been on forum for sometime now l do .like the features you put on can l just say within the past 2 years more doctors & vets are training to use Homoeopathy for their clients due to the demand asked once considered a poor mans medicine, because people do not wish to add more chemicals into their blood and this includes their animals, its good too see animals aswell as humnas get better after holistic therapies, peole forget that manufactured medicines do not always work, l have been so busy in my area because more vets are calling on my services l have so many happy cats/dogs that can walk now without pain, have healed many skin conditions l forget have recommendations from my stockists that their customers do send my stock abroad, natural medicines given by someone who is quailified to do so will ot harm your pet, but do not take it upon yourself to try seek good advice first as like all medincines herbs are dangerous if not used correctly
> 
> Happy Christmas everyone


Brilliant to hear of your success, well done :thumbup:

Years ago, I had a rescue cat who developed terrible wet eczema, hot spots, vet said 

Bless him, he had antibiotics, steroid injections, steroid tablets, skin tests, you name it, he had it. Changing diet helped a little but it eventually improved once we began to use aloe vera skin gel and homeopathic remedies. We also never vaccinated him again, he was a house cat so not really an issue to us (I know not everyone would agree though!)

I think what cured him (where drugs had failed) was taking a holistic view of his condition. He had been shot when he came to us and we also needed to look at his emotional state. I very firmly believe our emotions effect and influence our health, but I am pretty sure you will think that way too!

I won't bore anyone with a link, but if anyone is interested, google psychoneuroimmunology


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> There is no dialogue to enter into. Simply links posted and statements made
> 
> Personally I respect everyones right to decide whether or not they choose to consider holistic health care for their animals :thumbup:
> 
> Okay, off to have some of my home made organic garlic and honey remedy I made last night for my cough .... dangerous though it may be to self treat and take herbal/natural remedies :scared: :lol:


You see, I think there could easily be a dialogue not just an endless posting of links that is frankly quite disjointed and pointless.

I think we need to be careful not to confuse herbal remedies with the likes of homeopathy (though the two are often used interchangeably mistakenly).

Hope you feel better soon though. What rotten luck to be ill over Christmas.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

_There is one thing missing here Sandymere, which is so true of this thread. Ignore the arguments of those who are critical and don't enter into a dialogue. Shame._

OOpps didnt think there was much point carrying on. I mentioned waaaay back -"black and white - agree to disagree"
We can continue to play ping pong with this till the cows come home and I got a bit bored.

Will say tho, I've done my research and nothing will change my mind. Alternative medicine does have a place and I will continue to use it in place of "proven" drugs whenever I can.

Amethyst, I hope your cough is better soon. Do you find organic honey as good as manuka?

I need to pop off and take my homeopathic immunoboost. There are a lot of bugs around at the mo. I think I'm due my flu nosode - yes, that's the one, with all the current crap in it and not based on last year's outbreaks:thumbup:

Oh, and here's a bit of dialogue - Merry Christmas to you all, alt-med or conventional. I hope you have a great one and a fantastic New Year too:thumbup:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> You see, I think there could easily be a dialogue not just an endless posting of links that is frankly quite disjointed and pointless.
> 
> I think we need to be careful not to confuse herbal remedies with the likes of homeopathy (though the two are often used interchangeably mistakenly).
> 
> Hope you feel better soon though. What rotten luck to be ill over Christmas.


Thank you, I'm not too bad and all organised now so can relax a bit 

I am not sure if there is a lot of point of intense dialogue here. Those who use complementary vet care and get good results, will obviously not stop doing so.

Those that are "on a mission" to discredit it aren't going to try it and so remain closed to it's possibilities 

Their choice and I respect that of course and would hope it could be a mutual thing, but it rarely is ...

Never mind, lot's of garlic in the cupboard and assortment of herbal teas (living close to the edge now, herbal tea, oh the dangers lurking inside a herbal tea bag :nono: ) stashed away .... as well as some medicinal whisky 

Have a great Christmas!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> _
> Amethyst, I hope your cough is better soon. Do you find organic honey as good as manuka?
> _


_

I haven't honestly noticed any difference, but for sure honey is brilliant and I take it routinely with garlic (okay I stink a bit) if I get cold/coughs 

I used to get a lot of chest infections following colds etc, but thankfully, not since beginning this. (Sorry I have no research to back it up with!)

Manuka honey is delicious, but expensive and as I have said I find a nice quality organic honey just as good, certainly in this mix 

Happy Christmas to you! Don't you wish we had a Santa smilie!!!!_


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I havent tried Manuka but heard lots. Will definately go down the organic route.

OH swears by honey and root ginger to drink but takes odourless garlic capsules. I dont find the odourless as good so probably stink as much as you:lol:

Forgot the herbal tea's. Rooibush, Green Tea, Fennel, and Peppermint are my staples, cant do the fruit ones v well. Always feel I am drinking hot jelly:lol:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Forgot the herbal tea's. Rooibush, Green Tea, Fennel, and Peppermint are my staples, cant do the fruit ones v well. Always feel I am drinking hot jelly:lol:


Agree, the fruit ones always taste as though they should be triple the strength!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Oh, and here's a bit of dialogue - Merry Christmas to you all, alt-med or conventional. I hope you have a great one and a fantastic New Year too:thumbup:





Amethyst said:


> Have a great Christmas!


Merry Christmas to you too!


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> There is one thing missing here Sandymere, which is so true of this thread. Ignore the arguments of those who are critical and don't enter into a dialogue. Shame.


Lordy the links are part of the dialogue, posted in repy so whats your point exactly?

"_Will say tho, I've done my research and nothing will change my mind. Alternative medicine does have a place and I will continue to use it in place of "proven" drugs whenever I can._" ( Mum2Heidi )

Nothing will change your mind? Personally I prefer to keep an open mind, can learn with an open mind:.

It is boring as you cannot come up with anything new!

Watch the video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in he link.
http://www.badscience.net


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

_Nothing will change your mind? Personally I prefer to keep an open mind, can learn with an open mind.

It is boring as you cannot come up with anything new!_

Nit pick all you want, altho I wouldnt have called that very "open minded"

There is nothing new to come up with - I am happy with alt meds as I have said all along.

Each to their own opinion:thumbup:


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