# liverpool dog attack



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

not sure if anyone has already posted this - but how awful.

Liverpool pensioner dies in horrific dog attack - Liverpool Echo


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## Debxan (Jan 9, 2011)

Yes, have read it. How absolutely terrible, poor, poor old man. How on earth could this have happened?


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Such a horrendous incident to happen in my home town...  I hope that man has found peace, and I hope the people responsible are brought to justice. 



> A shocked resident told the ECHO that the pensioner was attacked by a "pitbull-type" dog when he opened the back door of his Clubmoor house last night.





> Merseyside police said it was not in a position to identify the the breed of dog which was "destroyed" by armed officers.





> "Armed officers attended at the scene and the dog was destroyed. At this stage the breed of the dog is still to be established."


This annoys me. They should not have mentioned the P-word - they are doing even more damage to bull breeds....Today in Liverpool there's a fun dog show organized by a rescue, highlighting the plight of staffies and bull-breeds and what great pets they make. I wonder if they decided to go ahead with the event in light of today's news, or whether any trouble occurred with the anti-staffy brigade all worked up... :frown: It's yet another sad day for man and canine.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

The poor man what a way to die, my heart goes out to his family.

Here we go again, I'm starting to dislike these dogs more and more.

The breed of dog has not been confirmed but nearby residents said it looked like a* Staffordshire Bull Terrier.*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That poor man I feel so sorry for his family . Regardless of breed it seems the owners had no idea until the police told them, if they have an aggressive dog it should be under control.

They haven't confirmed the breed yet but of course it's automatically a bull breed


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

It's horrible, that poor man and his family. You should be safe on your own premises.

There's been no confirmation of breed and I don't really see that it matters. This poor person's death was caused by negligent owners.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

On the news tonight they showed the dog being carried out in a body bag. It looked a lot bigger than a staffy. Poor man


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> That poor man I feel so sorry for his family . Regardless of breed it seems the owners had no idea until the police told them, if they have an aggressive dog it should be under control.
> 
> They haven't confirmed the breed yet but of course it's automatically a bull breed


It is probably a bull breed because the neighbours who had been complaining about more than one dog jumping fences into gardens could see that it was a bull breed 

As someone else said, does it matter what breed it is though - it has killed a person - to argue about what breed it is strikes me as being very unfeeling.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Poor, poor man. What a way to die.

Stupid f***ing idiot owners. People will never learn, sadly we will see this happen again and again.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Mulish said:


> It's horrible, that poor man and his family. You should be safe on your own premises.
> 
> There's been no confirmation of breed and I don't really see that it matters. *This poor person's death was caused by negligent owners.*


Exactly. Makes me livid.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

The two women who owned the dog responsible lived next door, and have been arrested for Manslaughter.

My guess is possibly that these women knew the dog was aggressive - perhaps there had been incidents before - and failed to ensure the dog was secured safely. That would be enough for a manslaughter charge on the grounds of gross negligence.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I posted on the other thread, but I will say again that I think it is terrible  Poor man should have been safe in his own garden!



Happy Paws said:


> The poor man what a way to die, my heart goes out to his family.
> 
> Here we go again, I'm starting to dislike these dogs more and more.
> 
> The breed of dog has not been confirmed but nearby residents said it looked like a* Staffordshire Bull Terrier.*


Oh yes, because the general public have always been right in the past  I remember the one where the neighbours all said it was a Pit Bull, and it ended up being a Mastiff!

It may very well be a bull breed, but to state such things BEFORE it has even been confirmed is IMO, not right. But then, you always have come across very anti-bull breed so your post doesn't surprise me 

I just hope and pray it isn't a bull breed so it doesn't give people like you even more ammunition!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Doesn't much matter what breed it was. It will give every dog a bad name. 

No dog should be allowed to be capable of killing a human, or another dog for that matter. 

Hope they very publicly through the book at those two women, and that they get locked up for a very long time. Only this way can it be brought home to people that the wrong dog, in the wrong hands, is a lethal weapon. And owners should be treated in the same way as if they'd had their fingers on a trigger of a gun.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It doesn't matter what breed, if they knew they had a dog capable of this or even knew he was aggressive he should have been under control at all times. The owners should be arrested for at least manslaughter it is entirely their fault.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> The poor man what a way to die, my heart goes out to his family.
> 
> Here we go again, I'm starting to dislike these dogs more and more.
> 
> The breed of dog has not been confirmed but nearby residents said it looked like a* Staffordshire Bull Terrier.*


Sigh .....


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## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Doesn't much matter what breed it was. It will give every dog a bad name.
> 
> No dog should be allowed to be capable of killing a human, or another dog for that matter.
> 
> Hope they very publicly through the book at those two women, and that they get locked up for a very long time. Only this way can it be brought home to people that the wrong dog, in the wrong hands, is a lethal weapon. And owners should be treated in the same way as if they'd had their fingers on a trigger of a gun.


Agree with you, doesn't matter what breed. Owners are responsible for keeping dogs under control!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The neighbours said on sky news that the dogs were jumping from garden to garden during the day, so the women obviously didn't give a sh!t about their neighbours did they? I hope they serve a long jail sentence and perhaps that will make other crap owners take some notice.

Unfortunately there will always be owners like this and the dogs (whatever breed) will get a bad name.
This evening saw the guy four doors up take his Staffie over the park, off lead well ahead of him and he knows it's attacked dogs in the past - while he walked behind with a *glass of beer* in his hand! Bloody scum bag! 

Why is it these owners think they can do just what they like and to hell with everyone else?


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

It's an awful thing to have happened, the poor man should have been safe in his own home. So sad.

It's got me wondering what knee jerk reaction from the government is going to come from the recent tragedies where people have been killed or hurt by dogs?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Its a horrendous situation. 

The 'owners' deserve what they get and more  No it wasnt the dogs fault but I also believe there is no room for dogs like that in our society point blank - Whatever breed. 

As for mentioning the breed - Average Joe Bloggs sees all short haired muscular dogs the same. They ALL get tarred with the same brush not just SBT's. 

I don't fully understand why people get so upset when they name the breed. Only one paper mentioned a breed which I was aware of and it said it was unconfirmed. 

Its such a sad state of affairs - and we wonder why so many places dont welcome dogs with open arms


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I am interested to know the breed. 
Not because I will then use it as an excuse to vilify all of the same breed, but because I am genuinely interested. 

I'd also like to know because I don't think it would have been a pure-bred KC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

There are a lot of people deliberately crossing various breeds to random others just to make money, and not always taking into account the temperament of the sire and dam (didn't we have someone on here recently wanting to breed her Bull Terrier which was aggressive?) or how the mix of breeds might affect the temperament in the puppies.

Being a balanced and open minded person, I know that the majority of Pit Bulls are very nice and friendly dogs, some of them are not, and some are kept by people who don't want them to be nice and friendly. (Or don't have a frigging clue, but that's the same of any breed - all dogs bite).

Same with American Bulldogs, there are plenty who are nice, but there are enough who aren't, and are being over-bred and cross-bred by numpties and sold on to numpties. Again, any breed can be taught to be aggressive and AmB's have a strong guarding instinct, which some people might find hard to control if they aren't prepared for it.

Whatever breed it was though, you have the scenario where a dog or dogs jumped a high fence and someone died as a result. 

The news report I saw showed the fence as being 6ft high, so there must have been an awful lot more to it than we're being told right now - not much makes a dog scale a 6ft fence to kill someone. :001_unsure:


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> I don't fully understand why people get so upset when they name the breed.


It only bothers me because it makes certain people come out with this sort of thing,


Happy Paws said:


> Here we go again, I'm starting to dislike these dogs more and more.


and when you own that type of dog it's not nice to hear things like this because it's not the breeds fault, it's the irresponsible owners of this particular dog. I don't think this makes me unfeeling, or insensitive - I care very much that such an awful thing has happened but I also don't want my own dog getting tarred with the same brush - the two aren't mutually exclusive imo.
I feel greatly for this poor man and his family and hope that the owners are brought to justice.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

tiatortilla said:


> It only bothers me because it makes certain people come out with this sort of thing,
> 
> and when you own that type of dog it's not nice to hear things like this because it's not the breeds fault, it's the irresponsible owners of this particular dog. I don't think this makes me unfeeling, or insensitive - I care very much that such an awful thing has happened but I also don't want my own dog getting tarred with the same brush - the two aren't mutually exclusive imo.
> I feel greatly for this poor man and his family and hope that the owners are brought to justice.


You put what I wanted to put...but couldn't think how to put it :arf:


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

tiatortilla said:


> It only bothers me because it makes certain people come out with this sort of thing,
> 
> *and when you own that type of dog it's not nice to hear things like this because it's not the breeds fault, it's the irresponsible owners of this particular dog. I don't think this makes me unfeeling, or insensitive - I care very much that such an awful thing has happened but I also don't want my own dog getting tarred with the same brush - the two aren't mutually exclusive imo.
> I feel greatly for this poor man and his family and hope that the owners are brought to justic*e.


I fully understand that - But everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Whether its right or wrong is hear say. :frown:

I do feel sometimes people can take things to personally -There is huge variation within breeds and we all know the problems with byb breeding staffies and the huge amount of very poorly bred SBT crosses. Theres so many of them the chances of them being involved in incidents is more likely than alot of other breeds.

I think you have to remember that people are not talking or referring to your own dog.

We all know the type of owner in which *any* dog is dangerous in the hands of.

Just feels like when one particular breed is mentioned is causes immense controversy.

There will always be people who prefer certain breeds over others and half the time I think they only make such comments because they want people to 'bite' and people always do  

I just find it a lil sad people end up arguing over the possible breed of dog / the way a paper has written it when an innocent adult has died :-(


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> I fully understand that - But everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Whether its right or wrong is hear say. :frown:


I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, just as Happy Paws is allowed to generalise this type of dog, I'm allowed to say that it bothers me that people do that.



> I do feel sometimes people can take things to personally -There is huge variation within breeds and we all know the problems with byb breeding stffies and the huge amount of very poorly bred SBT crosses.


Tia came from a non KC reg pet litter ie. poorly bred. Still doesn't mean she's going to eat someone. And I do take it personally when someone says they're starting to dislike these dogs more and more, because it's personal to me, that includes my dog!



> I think you have to remember that people are not talking or referring to your own dog.


But when it's someone who has made several very anti bull breed comments - they _are_ talking about my dog too, and anyone else on the forum that owns one.



> We all know the type of owner in which *any* dog is dangerous in the hands of.
> 
> Just feels like when one particular breed is mentioned is causes immense controversy.
> 
> There will always be people who prefer certain breeds over others and half the time I think they only make such comments because they want people to 'bite' and people always do


I didn't mean to start picking apart your reply, sorry if it looks that way I just had something to reply to each bit individually! Totally agree with the last part though, and yeah I will 'bite' when someone negatively generalises all dogs of a certain type - sorry if that bothers anyone but as I said before, that doesn't mean I care any less about what happened to this man.

ETA: I personally wouldn't bring up the fact that the papers are calling it a staffy and saying it's uncomfirmed or whatever - the only time I feel the need to chime in is when people start with the generalisations. I don't particularly care that the Daily Mail is speculating on what breed it is - that's to be expected, but I do care that other dog owners are making negative comments on those speculations, if that makes sense.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I don't understand why any dogs breed shouldn't be mentioned if it was involved in an attack. I was mortified when a rescue Mal bit a child in a buggy a few months ago at a charity event, I never once thought it was a slur on my own dogs but I did think it should be pts - Mall or not, wrong handler or not because as Milliepoochie has said we don't need that sort of dog in our society. 

I don't know why other owners take it personally although I do understand there is a great deal of prejudice towards bull breeds these days and that's because so many are now of very uncertain character. While they are the most loyal and friendly dogs to their owners they are very often not to others, especially other dogs. The threads on here are growing with attacks and with the kind of owners who are in charge of these dogs it will only increase. Your dogs, my dogs are not a threat to anyone and we make sure they are not but dogs who will attack another at the drop of a hat are a menace and owners who refuse to accept the responsibility of having a dog capable of inflicting such damage are an even bigger menace.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I don't understand why any dogs breed shouldn't be mentioned if it was involved in an attack.


I'm not sure if this was because of my comments, but I just thought I'd make it clear that I don't think the breed shouldn't be mentioned, I just think that they should wait until it's confirmed, and it's also not really the papers mentioning it that bothers me - just the negative comments about "these dogs" etc. coming from people, I just think it's unnecessary.

Anyway, backing out of this now because I don't actually want to turn this in to a full on debate about bull breeds, that really is irrelevant.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

jetsmum said:


> It's an awful thing to have happened, the poor man should have been safe in his own home. So sad.
> 
> It's got me wondering what knee jerk reaction from the government is going to come from the recent tragedies where people have been killed or hurt by dogs?


I would imagine that it will be the same knee jerk reaction as there has been with gun laws and knife laws - and that it will make absolutely no difference to the bad dog owners but will affect the law abiding good owners considerably - as have the knife and gun laws.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lozzibear said:


> I posted on the other thread, but I will say again that I think it is terrible  Poor man should have been safe in his own garden!
> 
> Oh yes, because the general public have always been right in the past  I remember the one where the neighbours all said it was a Pit Bull, and it ended up being a Mastiff!
> 
> ...





paddyjulie said:


> Sigh .....





tiatortilla said:


> It only bothers me because it makes certain people come out with this sort of thing,
> 
> and when you own that type of dog it's not nice to hear things like this because it's not the breeds fault, it's the irresponsible owners of this particular dog. I don't think this makes me unfeeling, or insensitive - I care very much that such an awful thing has happened but I also don't want my own dog getting tarred with the same brush - the two aren't mutually exclusive imo.
> I feel greatly for this poor man and his family and hope that the owners are brought to justice.


You might all feel different if your dog has been attacked by a Staffy, mine has.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> You might all feel different if your dog has been attacked by a Staffy, mine has.


My brother's Lab, whom I adore, was mauled by a Staffy - it has made NO difference to how I feel towards this breed. Why would it? I love Staffies and most of the ones I meet are a delight.

A man has died, in a ghastly way, and frankly I feel your comments were unnecessary - especially given that the breed of the dog in question has not yet been confirmed.

But of course, we are all entitled to our opinions.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

tiatortilla said:


> It only bothers me because it makes certain people come out with this sort of thing,
> 
> and when you own that type of dog it's not nice to hear things like this because it's not the breeds fault, it's the irresponsible owners of this particular dog. I don't think this makes me unfeeling, or insensitive - I care very much that such an awful thing has happened but I also don't want my own dog getting tarred with the same brush - the two aren't mutually exclusive imo.
> I feel greatly for this poor man and his family and hope that the owners are brought to justice.


I'm sure there are some lovely Staffy/Bull breed dogs around, but it doesn't stop me having a fear about them.

Sorry if you don't like what I've said, but I can't help the way I feel.


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## Skandi (May 4, 2012)

It's interesting how people instantly assume the man was inncoent of anything, (now I am playing devils advocate here) was he grabbing the dog? hitting it? throwing stuff at it? The only time I have ever seen a dog "attack" someone it was a German Shepherd and a 5 year old, however the kid had been poking the dog with a stick for a good 10 minutes through the fence of it's garden. (the dog just shook him and then jumped back into it's garden) And my OH has a lovely scar on his eye socket from a Bull type cross, but he's the first one to admit he was pestering it.
Of course no dog should be able to get out of it's garden. and certainly shouldn't be outside at all without supervision imo. (and I was flagged down yesterday by a neighbour waving at my window and then pointing to my dog running past.. front door wasn't properly shut and I hadn't noticed, but Jess had) And in a ideal world no dog should react to anything, but they do and we really should get the whole story before wading in, unfortunatly the only person who would know the entire story is now dead, for him and his family that is a tradgedy.

Moral of the story is probably that police/council should react faster to complaints of loose/out of control dogs, but whether they have the resources too.. that I do not know. Of course the owners should do something about it, but there will always be owners that don't so one cannot relly on that.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

An owner should make sure that there dog isn't put in a situation where they can react in such a way. I'm not a perfect owner by any means, but mine are never left in the garden without me being there.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Skandi said:


> It's interesting how people instantly assume the man was inncoent of anything, (now I am playing devils advocate here) was he grabbing the dog? hitting it? throwing stuff at it? The only time I have ever seen a dog "attack" someone it was a German Shepherd and a 5 year old, however the kid had been poking the dog with a stick for a good 10 minutes through the fence of it's garden. (the dog just shook him and then jumped back into it's garden) And my OH has a lovely scar on his eye socket from a Bull type cross, but he's the first one to admit he was pestering it.
> Of course no dog should be able to get out of it's garden. and certainly shouldn't be outside at all without supervision imo. (and I was flagged down yesterday by a neighbour waving at my window and then pointing to my dog running past.. front door wasn't properly shut and I hadn't noticed, but Jess had) And in a ideal world no dog should react to anything, but they do and we really should get the whole story before wading in, unfortunatly the only person who would know the entire story is now dead, for him and his family that is a tradgedy.
> 
> Moral of the story is probably that police/council should react faster to complaints of loose/out of control dogs, but whether they have the resources too.. that I do not know. Of course the owners should do something about it, but there will always be owners that don't so one cannot relly on that.


I'm sorry I think that's a tad wrong - The man in question is dead - Killed in his own home

This dog was on private property where it should not have been. 

Doesn't matter what the man did (if he did)  That dog should NOT of been there.

There is no excuse for what has happen.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Another tragedy 
This poor man who had to suffer so terribly at the hands of irresponsible dog owners I can't imagine the terror and pain he would of gone through - my heart goes out to his friends and family.

Another sad day for all the responsible dog owners of this country 

(I posted this on the other thread about this tragedy)


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Regardless whether or not the poor man might have been "pestering" the dog there's no way that dog should have KILLED him in his own garden. That's absolutely menacing.

It's an insult to the poor man's memory to even suggest he could be at fault IMO.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> It's interesting how people instantly assume the man was inncoent of anything, (now I am playing devils advocate here) was he grabbing the dog? hitting it? throwing stuff at it?


Irrelevant and highly dangerous thinking that this is an excuse. If the dog had been hit (and I doubt a 79 year old man could do anything that a dog would feel anyway) the worst I would expect is a bite and running away. Never a mauling. You are making excuses for poor temperament in these dogs that attack.

Quite honestly this sort of comment that it could be the victims fault makes more more angry than anything


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Even if the man was tormenting the dog it should have been secure in it's garden. It's the fault of the owners not the man or the dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Skandi said:


> It's interesting how people instantly assume the man was inncoent of anything, (now I am playing devils advocate here) was he grabbing the dog? hitting it? throwing stuff at it?
> 
> Moral of the story is probably that police/council should react faster to complaints of loose/out of control dogs, but whether they have the resources too.. that I do not know. Of course the owners should do something about it, but there will always be owners that don't so one cannot relly on that.


That is a disgraceful thing to say. I wondered how long it would be before someone twisted things round to make it the mans fault. Even supposing he did throw something at the dog or hit it (which he would have been quite within his rights to do) it is no excuse for the dog to kill him.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Irrelevant and highly dangerous thinking that this is an excuse. If the dog had been hit (and I doubt a 79 year old man could do anything that a dog would feel anyway) the worst I would expect is a bite and running away. Never a mauling. You are making excuses for poor temperament in these dogs that attack.
> 
> *Quite honestly this sort of comment that it could be the victims fault makes more more angry than anything *


TOTALLY AGREE!!.... I felt sick to my stomach, and angry at what was said about him to the point of not responding to the comment as I would have gone "off on one" quite a bit....

I cant stand ridiculous comparisons either!...
a 5yr old child and a German Sheppard???  he was a 79yr old man who got mauled to death on HIS own property!!..... I will finish there because I feel myself getting a bit upset and dismayed at the perceptions of some, and thank god they are in minority of just one in this thread.....


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Skandi said:


> It's interesting how people instantly assume the man was inncoent of anything, (now I am playing devils advocate here) was he grabbing the dog? hitting it? throwing stuff at it?


There are a few kids here who made my life a misery last summer and tend to come out whenever the weather is nice. They "bark" outside my garden, bang on the fence, kick their footballs against the fence, throw cans at it, throw objects over the fence, climb the tree that overhangs our garden to look in and shout (well did, before the overhanging branch was cut off) to get a reaction from Kilo. It means that I have to be in the garden with him at all times playing tug etc etc when they are about or he'll bark and run the fence and I have to call him inside.

I HATE the situation and thoroughly dislike these children as I cannot use my garden at times, but it is still my job to control my dogs and keep the children safe - by having the tree branch cut down (that was mainly to stop cats coming in!!), a solid 6.5ft fence and locked gate of the same height. I also don't walk Kilo when these kids are about as he becomes very nervous and reactive. They don't deserve to be hurt and my dogs don't deserve to be put at risk through my actions.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Given the vague details of this incident, I try not to pass judgment on anyone. 

I do know from bitter experience that neighbour disputes can get VERY nasty and not all 79 y/o are sweet old war vets!! 
A nasty neighbour of mine used to wind up my dog and then complain about her  
If the victim was a teenage chav or something, I imagine people's assumptions would be somewhat different!! 

Whatever happened, it's terribly sad for all involved, a man dead, a dog dead, two young women whose lives are probably ruined. 

Confirms what I already believe though, dogs should be supervised in the garden at all times, whether it's 'secure' or not! 
My own dog surprised me the other day when she cleared a 5' high wall on first ever attempt  no doubt she'd scrape over a 6' fence if I was to allow it.

It's all the comments on the usual sites about all dogs being muzzled in public that rile me, vast majority of these attacks occur on private property, so would make no difference :mad2:


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I just hope anyone who knew this man personally doesn't come across this thread 

A man was horribly killed in his own garden it doesn't matter what else was going on this should never of happened


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## Guest (May 27, 2013)

Dogless said:


> There are a few kids here who made my life a misery last summer and tend to come out whenever the weather is nice. They "bark" outside my garden, bang on the fence, kick their footballs against the fence, throw cans at it, throw objects over the fence, climb the tree that overhangs our garden to look in and shout (well did, before the overhanging branch was cut off) to get a reaction from Kilo. It means that I have to be in the garden with him at all times playing tug etc etc when they are about or he'll bark and run the fence and I have to call him inside.
> 
> I HATE the situation and thoroughly dislike these children as I cannot use my garden at times, but it is still my job to control my dogs and keep the children safe - by having the tree branch cut down (that was mainly to stop cats coming in!!), a solid 6.5ft fence and locked gate of the same height. I also don't walk Kilo when these kids are about as he becomes very nervous and reactive. They don't deserve to be hurt and my dogs don't deserve to be put at risk through my actions.


This!! X100
We have got to learn as dog owners that WE are responsible for our dogs. It is our job to keep them safe and to keep the public safe from them. End of.

While I totally understand it, I'm also hugely uncomfortable with all the speculation going on whenever something like this happens. All we know for sure it seems is that a man died of *multiple* injuries consistent with a dog attack. 
I can't think of any situation where that sort of sustained attack on a human would be excusable or acceptable. Even if some psycho broke in to our home, I would not expect our dogs to attack any more than necessary for defense, not to kill. Granted, the likelihood of mine (like any pet dog) actively defending beyond a lot of barking and noise is debatable - as it should be! 
Even dogs who are trained (properly) to defend are not going to end up killing the suspect.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

From what I've read, it seems he'd approached the women about the fence being broken (by their dogs, so presumably their responsibility, I don't know, I'm not up on the laws of fence ownership- but if my dog damages a fence I consider it my responsibility to fix it).

It appears they didn't do this & now a man has died in a horrible way 

Just read it was a stafford x mastiff that attacked him & there's a possibility they'd been attracted by the smell of him cooking a meal, there was another dog at the scene but it's not clear if it was involved in the attack, although it wasn't shot & killed. The dogs had apparently been jumping into neighbours' gardens for some time, so where the hell were their owners?

Awful, preventable tragedy


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

I don't know if some people have read a different report to the one linked by the OP, but in that report it said "neighbours have said it was a "pit-bull type hound" I couldnt find a mention of a Staffy anywhere. The police also said that "the breed of dog couldn't be identified at this time"

I do think that staffy's get an awful lot of bad press though, but I think that is down to the fact that a good proportion of owners get Staffy's or Staffy mixes, mainly as status symbols, to impress their friends, or use as weapons. Also a bite from a Staffy, or any of the bull breeds which have a large head, strong, square build, shortened muzzle, strong and undershot jaws, which ensures a strong and efficient bite, will usually cause much more damage than most other breeds.

My sympathies go out to this old man, who died in such a horrible way - and to his family and friends


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> I don't know if some people have read a different report to the one linked by the OP, but in that report it said "neighbours have said it was a "pit-bull type hound" I couldnt find a mention of a Staffy anywhere. The police also said that "the breed of dog couldn't be identified at this time"


The problem with the media is that it's EASY to stereotype a breed and focus all the blame on it, it makes a 'good' story afterall.

All reasonable dog owners know that it's simply not the case, there are so many factors to consider to understand why this attack happened. However if the press goes onto it, it will turn out to be a 'boring' story, so the easy thing is to blame the breed and leave it at that. This is why the breed is becoming alienated, if this continues, I can guarantee that the breed will go onto the banned lists on the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.


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## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

Regardless of what the man did (i.e whether he wound it up etc or not), he shouldn't have had to die this way and the dog should not have been out of control, particularly if there was any risk of aggression.

People poke and prod my dogs all the time (often without realising they shouldn't) and even if they do wind them up, it is still my job to control them and stop them from ever reacting to it. As others have said, regardless of what this man did or didn't do to wind the dog up or whatever, it should not have resulted in a horrible death like that.

I have nothing against any "Pitt Bull" type, and while the dog did it, it is still down to the owners having out of control dogs. It is the owner's responsibility to ensure that their fence is secure and any aggressive dogs either PTS or muzzled.

I feel so very sorry for this man for what happened to him. Something needs to be done - so many attacks are occuring on private property and it isn't right


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## Typewriter (May 12, 2013)

What a terrible way to die that poor man. I blame the owners who are totally responsible for their dogs behaviour and training and where were they when this was happening. Surely, someone heard something. 

I have just started puppy training as one of my dogs is very boisterous and does not come when called or do anything you ask her to do. One hours lesson and she will come when called and I now know how to stop her jumping up. The trainer is very good and any problems I had we could work through it with the puppy. I am so glad I went.

I think it would be a good idea along with micro chipping to make it compulsory to get your puppy trained.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

We recently had the tragic case of the soldier attacked and killed in Woolwich. I can see little difference in this case. This man must have been terrified, as the girl who was killed a few months ago. There is no excuse for a dog to behave like this, any breed of dog. As has already been said, even trained guard dogs do not act this way.

Excuses have been made about food - sorry, but I do not see any relevance.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Skandi said:


> It's interesting how people instantly assume the man was inncoent of anything, (now I am playing devils advocate here) was he grabbing the dog? hitting it? throwing stuff at it?


You might have read a different article to me but this was the article I read. It doesn't appear to me that the poor old man was doing anything to the dog that could have warrented such an attack. 



> By John Siddle
> 
> Liverpool pensioner dies in horrific dog attack
> 26 May 2013 16:10
> ...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Typewriter said:


> I think it would be a good idea along with micro chipping to make it compulsory to get your puppy trained.


The training idea in theory is OK but so hard to manage. Who would decide which trainer you went to? How would the trainers be vetted? Who would monitor attendance? etc etc Folk may well attend the lessons (may), but they're not going to do anything really unless huge amounts of work are put in outside class.

TBH microchipping, dog licensing, compulsory training are good ideas in theory, difficult to enforce and only really affect responsible owners anyway. Others will just disregard the requirements and carry on as they always have done.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Typewriter said:


> I think it would be a good idea along with micro chipping to make it compulsory to get your puppy trained.


I'd go further than puppy trained. Most people think they have trained their puppy by going to puppy classes. But puppies and young dogs are always fine. The true temperament of a dog doesn't show until they have gone through adolescence and training should be continued until adulthood.

While I generally agree (isn't compulsory micro chipping coming in soon anyway?) Like most laws, there will still be people that break them, and for the main part, they are the ones that cause the problems. If the law had been effective, there would be no pit bulls alive in the UK now. But we all know that they are out there and still being bred!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Sorry to say that IMO there will come a time, in the not too distant future, when all dogs will have to be muzzled in public places.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

@ Dogless /agreed

Dog licenses when they were in force - I think they were abolished in or around 1987, cost more to implement than they raised in revenue. I personally think that any other compulsory dog related legal requirement would flounder just as licensing did.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lucylastic said:


> Sorry to say that IMO there will come a time, in the not too distant future, when all dogs will have to be muzzled in public places.


But that wouldn't stop an attack like this one, which occurred on private property.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> You might all feel different if your dog has been attacked by a Staffy, mine has.


One of my dogs has been attacked by a variety of breeds... I do not feel that way towards ANY of the breeds. The individual dogs, yes. The breed, NO.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> @ Dogless /agreed
> 
> Dog licenses when they were in force - I think they were abolished in or around 1987, cost more to implement than they raised in revenue. I personally think that any other compulsory dog related legal requirement would flounder just as licensing did.


I live in NI where we have compulsory dog licensing and microchipping. I have never seen it enforced and know full well that the law is often disregarded.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Mark Walden said:


> The problem with the media is that it's EASY to stereotype a breed and focus all the blame on it, it makes a 'good' story afterall.
> 
> All reasonable dog owners know that it's simply not the case, there are so many factors to consider to understand why this attack happened. However if the press goes onto it, it will turn out to be a 'boring' story, so the easy thing is to blame the breed and leave it at that. This is why the breed is becoming alienated, if this continues, I can guarantee that the breed will go onto the banned lists on the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.


But...in this instance the press didn't blame any particular breed, they just reported that it was a "pit-bull type hound", because that is what a neighbour had said. I was trying to right a wrong, folks here on this forum were saying they thought it was a Staffy. *shrugs*


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> One of my dogs has been attacked by a variety of breeds... I do not feel that way towards ANY of the breeds. The individual dogs, yes. The breed, NO.


I am not saying it is right to be breedist BUT everyone is different.

Everyone has different thresholds to cope with situations.

Thats great that your not wary of any particular breed after a bad experience but not everyone is strong enough to have that approach. 

There are a couple of breeds which if I saw and had a means of changing direction etc then I will rather than passing in close quarters. In fact 9/10 if on an onlead walk especially or its a dog I dont know il try avoid them no matter what breed


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> We recently had the tragic case of the soldier attacked and killed in Woolwich. I can see little difference in this case. This man must have been terrified, as the girl who was killed a few months ago. There is no excuse for a dog to behave like this, any breed of dog. As has already been said, even trained guard dogs do not act this way.
> 
> *Excuses have been made about food - sorry, but I do not see any relevance.*


Agree with you, surely if the smell of cooking food was the motivator for this attack (and the one on little Jade Anderson) there would be problems with dogs on a regular basis across the board, but somehow, the vast majority of our dogs don't behave like this.

Seeing as the owner/s appear negligent enough to just let their dogs wander around through their neighbours' gardens they have probably been negligent in many other aspects of the dogs' lives. Where the hell were they while the dogs were apparently loose for several hours?

I feel overwhelming sadness for this man's death, pity for the dogs for their misfortune to have been born & anger at the useless wastes of space owner/s.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> The two women who owned the dog responsible lived next door, and have been arrested for Manslaughter.
> 
> My guess is possibly that these women knew the dog was aggressive - perhaps there had been incidents before - and failed to ensure the dog was secured safely. That would be enough for a manslaughter charge on the grounds of gross negligence.


Good. It's been far too long since owners were made responsible for the acts of their weapons. If everyone was charged for manslaughter when these things occurred it might make them think twice.


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> But...in this instance the press didn't blame any particular breed, they just reported that it was a "pit-bull type hound", because that is what a neighbour had said. I was trying to right a wrong, folks here on this forum were saying they thought it was a Staffy. *shrugs*


Well sadly the BBC said it 'looked like a Staffordshire Bull Terrier type' I find that statement alone highly amusing, that's like saying it was a 'Beagle type dog' it just doesn't make sense!

Either way, breed makes it highly irrelevant in my mind, they are a popular dog because they are so overbred throughout the country. You find rescue centres that have about 90% of their homeless dogs to be of that 'type' so naturally dog attack cases will involve more of those types, statistically.

But yes, you're right. It's silly, the Daily Mail today had a picture of a Bull Mastiff looking vicious and under it said something like 'The dog was thought to be a cross breed' - So wait, the picture above made absolutely no sense if they didn't know what type of dog it was. It could of been a Chihuahua for all we know!

And yes, Chihuahuas have been seized in the past under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 - I'm not even kidding :blink:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> And yes, Chihuahuas have been seized in the past under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 - I'm not even kidding


And so they should if they have breached the DDA. The Dangerous Dogs Act applies to ALL breeds.

Apart from the DDA applying only to public places atm I think we have all the legislation we need. The problem is that it isn't applied. Aggressive dogs aren't taken seriously enough when reported. Police show no interest unless the dog has actually attacked.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I can never understand why anybody would want a dog that is not human friendly (and dog friendly). 

Those people who knowingly own such a dog, or encourage this behaviour should be charged with murder when something like this happens.


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> And so they should if they have breached the DDA. The Dangerous Dogs Act applies to ALL breeds.
> 
> Apart from the DDA applying only to public places atm I think we have all the legislation we need. The problem is that it isn't applied. Aggressive dogs aren't taken seriously enough when reported. Police show no interest unless the dog has actually attacked.


It's a shame because It's very hard to prosecute or go to court if anyone felt threatened, it's even hard to prosecute if you've been attacked by a dog and show no signs of injury towards it. It has happened though, but very hard to go anywhere because it can be very expensive and very risky to go through depending on the amount of evidence you have.

DDA is the most flawed Act I've ever seen, its full of holes and it makes virtually no sense whatsoever. I agree there should be a act to help prevent and prosecute people who breach them, but the current act needs to change dramatically because as it stands it's incredibly expensive (to the taxpayer as well as the people involved) and statistically it's not solving the problem we have at hand.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Muze said:


> Given the vague details of this incident, I try not to pass judgment on anyone.
> 
> I do know from bitter experience that neighbour disputes can get VERY nasty and* not all 79 y/o are sweet old war vets!! *
> A nasty neighbour of mine used to wind up my dog and then complain about her
> ...


Actually I think most decent folk would feel the same any time a person is *killed in their own home *by a dog.

It is a ghastly thing to happen and some of the comments on this thread are really quite bizarre.

I sincerely hope the victim's family never stumble across this thread.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

kirksandallchins said:


> I can never understand why anybody would want a dog that is not human friendly (and dog friendly).
> 
> Those people who knowingly own such a dog, or encourage this behaviour should be charged with murder when something like this happens.


My dog isn't overly human friendly. I'm not saying she'd ever kill somebody of course, but not every dog is bred to be friendly and trusting, and actually I don't mind her guardian traits which mean she doesn't want to be every strangers best friend. Whether your dog is aggressive or not, you manage the situation, any dog no matter how friendly can be taunted and kill someone, even the smallest dogs there are are capable of killing children or babies so it's not all down to size. With around 80% or so of deaths from dogs being children not adults it's something everyone should take seriously. My dog loves kids (not adults) but if she jumped on a toddler and knocked her over it could kill that child!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Actually I think most decent folk would feel the same any time a person is *killed in their own home *by a dog.
> 
> It is a ghastly thing to happen and some of the comments on this thread are really quite bizarre.
> 
> I sincerely hope the victim's family never stumble across this thread.


I hope that too and if they do as a dog owner I would distance myself from any comment of this poor old guy being any way at fault for having the cheek to open his own back door and walking into his own back garden. What on earth are people thinking to even slightly insinuate that he could be to blame? 

There are so many cross breeds of strong, powerful dogs these days that its no wonder we have episodes like this, something should be done to look into crossing breeds that can very easily end up far worse than any pit bull and definitely far worse than any staff. Today I read it was likely a mastiff x staff and it does look too big to be a staff to me too, from looking at the body bag being carried by police.

Someone said recently 'there are dog lovers and dog owners' because not every dog owner like certain dogs. That's very true, I don't like the dog or the owner who have stopped me walking my street with my dogs - something I've been doing for thirty years til now. It may be the owners fault - am sure it is - but it's the actual dog that does the damage. If that makes me a 'dog owner' then that's fine by me. I like kids but I don't like little louts, being raised in the wrong way doesn't make me like them any more than a loutish dog.

The dog that did this disgusts me, its owners disgust me, people making excuses for a fiercely viscous dog disgusts me, so I'm happy to be labelled a 'dog owner' and actually try to understand where the general public are coming from in wanting better control laws and ways to enforce them. Anyone reading this thread who has been affected by this terrible incident would have good reason to hate dog lovers, its a disgrace how some can try and put blame on an elderly person under these circumstances - much the same as the girl recently was blamed for taking food onto a house full of dogs. Something we all do every day and in our wildest dreams wouldn't expect to be attacked for it!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> There are so many cross breeds of strong, powerful dogs these days that its no wonder we have episodes like this, something should be done to look into *crossing breeds that can very easily end up far worse than any pit bull and definitely far worse than any staff.* Today I read it was likely a mastiff x staff and it does look too big to be a staff to me too, from looking at the body bag being carried by police.


I don't understand what you mean by "far worse" .

ETA: Agree with the rest, I am disgusted to think that people think there's any excuse for someone to be killed in their own garden!!


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> I am not saying it is right to be breedist BUT everyone is different.
> 
> Everyone has different thresholds to cope with situations.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, there are certain breeds I am more careful with because they are powerful, and mine wouldn't stand a chance in a fight... but that is usually because I am worried Jake will snap, and the dog will retaliate (Jake can get nervous around bigger male dogs).

I don't, however, dislike any breed of dog because ONE of that breed has attacked mine... The most scary attack on Jake, was by TWO Boxers. I was walking along the pavement, Jake on lead, not expecting to come across off lead dogs... then two Boxers come tearing around the corner, and one of them just went straight for Jake. The male soon followed, and Jake was pinned on the ground with both dogs on him. I punched them to get them off, and the male soon stopped. The bitch was really serious though, and the owner ended up grabbing her and punching her in the face. Do I hate ALL Boxers because of that incident? No. I have since let Jake meet the male (he wasn't aggressive, pack mentality just took over because of the bitch) and he was really friendly to Jake. I won't let the female anywhere near Jake, but she won't make me hate a whole group of dogs though.

I also wouldn't say I am a particularly strong person...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> There are so many cross breeds of strong, powerful dogs these days that its no wonder we have episodes like this, something should be done to look into crossing breeds that can very easily end up far worse than any pit bull and definitely far worse than any staff. Today I read it was likely a mastiff x staff and it does look too big to be a staff to me too, from looking at the body bag being carried by police.


Apparently it took 3 police officers to lift it, so it must be way bigger than any properly bred stafford.



Dogless said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "far worse" .


Not sure where Malmum's coming from with this, but me & OH were discussing it earlier, if unethical backyard breeders cross poor examples of two very different breeds (in this case stafford/mastiff)- and let's face it, it's happening a LOT- that were bred for different purposes and the progeny inherit the worst traits of each of their poorly bred parents, then the outcome isn't going to be good. In the right hands, potentially manageable, but in the wrong hands, a dangerous liability.


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## Guest (May 27, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> if unethical backyard breeders cross poor examples of two very different breeds (in this case stafford/mastiff)- and let's face it, it's happening a LOT- that were bred for different purposes and the progeny inherit the worst traits of each of their poorly bred parents, then the outcome isn't going to be good. In the right hands, potentially manageable, but in the wrong hands, a dangerous liability.


Very true - of ANY powerful breed. 
Sadly it's not hard to select for poor temperament, and it's not hard to exploit that poor temperament in to a weapon. But again, you could potentially turn ANY large breed in to a killer, not just "certain" breeds.
To me the wording "worse than" implies that pitbulls and staffies are already "bad". But I don't want to derail this thread in to another breed debate. Just suffice it to say that any dog can be ruined.

Also bears mentioning IMO that the huge, vast majority of dogs are not well bred, not well trained, not well managed, and yet still manage to not turn in to killers. The truth is, dogs - of any size, and any breed - are really are not the danger the media would like for you to think they are. Tragedies such as these, as horrible and upsetting as they are, are actually quite rare. It's in part because of their unusualness that they get so much media attention.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Far worse than the media portrays certain breeds to be - nit pickers! Jeez!!


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

Its hard to imagine what that poor old boy suffered being mauled to death by these horrid dogs,again wrong dogs in the wrong hands. I dont and never will agree with inexperienced people having this breed of dog or any other powerful jawed dog.Apparently on the news he was about to report the owners of these dogs as he was worried a child would be hurt,instead he has paid with his life.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Far worse than the media portrays certain breeds to be - nit pickers! Jeez!!


I was actually agreeing with you on this one- I know you & I don't always see eye to eye on certain breeds


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Far worse than the media portrays certain breeds to be - nit pickers! Jeez!!


I wasn't nit picking, I genuinely didn't understand what you meant . Didn't know if you meant size, temperament, strength, something else . I was clearly being thick .


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Didn't know if you meant size, temperament, strength, something else . I was clearly being thick .


I imagine it would be possible to create a 'monster dog' by cross-breeding and mixing certain traits.

Stanley Coren touched on this in one of his books - not mentioning breed traits, but a combination of behavioural traits such as fearfulness, reactiveness, aggressiveness, perhaps not the most trainable as well.

As Ouesi said, there are many mixed up dogs that don't go on to injure people or become a danger but I do think certain combinations of traits can lead to a higher likelihood of dangerous behaviour emerging, given certain circumstances.

If you put together a 'monster dog' recipe and then took those puppies away too young [so they don't learn bite inhibition or how to interact with other dogs], then didn't teach them bite inhibition as they grew [which is ongoing for most puppies]; trained them with harsh and forceful methods [teaching them fear or mistrust of humans] and didn't socialise them properly [leaving them home alone, not walked often, shut away], then you have the added environmental recipe for disaster.....Nature and Nurture coming together negatively, in a potentially explosive package.

The traits I wouldn't want to see coming together (unless owned and handled by an experienced person) would be:
Guarding instinct
Size and strength
Reactivity
Tenacity/determination
High prey drives
Fearfulness

...any others?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I imagine it would be possible to create a 'monster dog' by cross-breeding and mixing certain traits.
> 
> Stanley Coren touched on this in one of his books - not mentioning breed traits, but a combination of behavioural traits such as fearfulness, reactiveness, aggressiveness, perhaps not the most trainable as well.
> 
> ...


I completely agree - and I do think this is often the deliberate thinking between these kinds of crosses. All dogs are capable of aggression but certain breeds are more predisposed to characteristics that make them more reactive. A combination of certain traits make the much more predisposed to the risk. Something those that think all dogs are equal need to realise.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I completely agree - and I do think this is often the deliberate thinking between these kinds of crosses.


I wasn't necessarily thinking of deliberate choice... an unsafe combination of personality traits could occur accidentally with some of the crosses being produced.

I am on several local FB pets for sale groups and what an eye-opener that is! It's where the casual BYBs sell their wares, and so many of them demonstrate such a lack of understanding basic care and handling, it leaves me gobsmacked. To many of them, dogs (and cats and other animals) are "just a dog" and as such, some appalling training/behaviour advice is meted out, to those who know no better.

There is one lady who regularly breeds from her dogs... One is a lab/rottie, and was bred to an American Bulldog. Someone else advertises puppies that are a mix rottie, mastiff, pit, staffie and AmBull. That mixture certainly would appeal to certain people just for the content, and she usually ends up selling them, albeit at a reduced rate sometimes ("Must go before the weekend as I am going on holiday").

Breeds aside, there is the potential of many traits coming together in such crosses that may not sit comfortably with one another... I often think these people think they are mixing paint and creating new colours, not understanding the reassortment of genes.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I wasn't necessarily thinking of deliberate choice... an unsafe combination of personality traits could occur accidentally with some of the crosses being produced.


No, I realise that but I do think some of the thinking is deliberate even if done by those lacking in knowledge. It shocks me how many people think their family pet can double as a guard dog and think if they breed this with that they will get a good one. Instead, all they get is a ticking time bomb. Combined with a lack of knowledge and ignorance and thinking all dogs are equal is a recipe for disaster.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

If anyone's interested, it would appear the breed has been confirmed as a Bullmastiff crossed with either a Presa Canario or a Bandog.

Dog that killed Liverpool pensioner was not a banned breed | Local | News - 107.6 Juice FM


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## Guest (May 28, 2013)

Galadriel17 said:


> If anyone's interested, it would appear the breed has been confirmed as a Bullmastiff crossed with either a Presa Canario or a Bandog.
> 
> Dog that killed Liverpool pensioner was not a banned breed | Local | News - 107.6 Juice FM


I can't get the article to open on this computer, but will do later. Thanks for posting.
Does the article say how they determined the breed? 
I always wonder if it occurs to anyone to go back and trace the genius breeding these mixes. 
Seriously. Who breeds a presa mix and sells it to a clueless owner? IMO whoever did that has blood on their hands too.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Galadriel17 said:


> If anyone's interested, it would appear the breed has been confirmed as a Bullmastiff crossed with either a Presa Canario or a Bandog.
> 
> Dog that killed Liverpool pensioner was not a banned breed | Local | News - 107.6 Juice FM


That is a lot of dog to end up in the wrong hands . Bandogs are just mastiff type mixes anyway aren't they?


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

Ha!

Honestly, how can anyone get mixed up between a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and Bullmastiff, Presa Canario, or a Bandog? I swear it's the media.

Let me show you a picture of a pure Staffordshire Bull Terrier I took at the London Pet Show a few weeks ago, I am always amazed at how small they are (apologies for the big size of the picture) This picture pretty much summed up my thoughts on the breed, completely.










There is a reason why they have 'Terriers' in their names, because on the scale of things they are very small dogs compared to most so-called 'dangerous' breeds.


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## Guest (May 28, 2013)

Mark Walden said:


> There is a reason why they have 'Terriers' in their names, because on the scale of things they are very small dogs compared to most so-called 'dangerous' breeds.


While I agree with you that there is a lot of breed misidentification about, size is not why dogs have terrier in their name. 
Airedales and Black Russian Terriers are certainly not small dogs 

IIRC, terrier comes from latin for "earth", as most terriers were originally dogs meant to go to ground for prey. Their tenacity though was very prized and added in to many breeds.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Mark Walden said:


> Ha!
> 
> Honestly, how can anyone get mixed up between a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and Bullmastiff, Presa Canario, or a Bandog? I swear it's the media.
> 
> ...


I met those lovely Staffies at Earls Court too - weren't they adorable?

RE TRACING THE BREEDER:

Wasn't there a thread the other day about proposed new legislation in...Belgium? was it?... about holding breeders accountable for dogs who become violent/aggressive?

In a ghastly tragedy such as the death of this poor man, it seems to me that some kind of legislation along those lines might not be a bad thing...


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> While I agree with you that there is a lot of breed misidentification about, size is not why dogs have terrier in their name.
> Airedales and Black Russian Terriers are certainly not small dogs
> 
> IIRC, terrier comes from latin for "earth", as most terriers were originally dogs meant to go to ground for prey. Their tenacity though was very prized and added in to many breeds.


Yes, you're right. The majority of them are relatively small dogs though. Never knew the meaning though, I suppose you learn something new everyday


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## Guest (May 28, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> RE TRACING THE BREEDER:
> 
> Wasn't there a thread the other day about proposed new legislation in...Belgium? was it?... about holding breeders accountable for dogs who become violent/aggressive?
> 
> In a ghastly tragedy such as the death of this poor man, it seems to me that some kind of legislation along those lines might not be a bad thing...


The legislation would have to be really carefully written if it were legislated at all. There are multiple reasons why a dog can become a ticking time bomb that may have absolutely nothign to do with breeding practices.

However more and more you hear about gobsmacking idiocity on the part of breeders that leave you wondering if they have any morals whatsoever.

-> A malinois breeder sold a pup to Michael Vick as a *family* dog. Gag me with a fork.
-> Local to me, someone is selling Cane Corsi as family protection dogs to completely clueless owners. We're talking people who have never owned a dog before. These dogs seem to be oddly fearful in addition to having the super "sharp" cane temperament.

I can't say I don't wish there were a way to stop this type of breeder...


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> *The legislation would have to be really carefully written if it were legislated at all. There are multiple reasons why a dog can become a ticking time bomb that may have absolutely nothign to do with breeding practices. *
> 
> However more and more you hear about gobsmacking idiocity on the part of breeders that leave you wondering if they have any morals whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Oh, totally agree.

Such legislation would be very tricky indeed, but something is desperately needed. The examples you give are horrendous and I see it a lot here too. All of these cases are accidents waiting to happen


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I can't get the article to open on this computer, but will do later. Thanks for posting.
> Does the article say how they determined the breed?
> *I always wonder if it occurs to anyone to go back and trace the genius breeding these mixes. *
> Seriously. Who breeds a presa mix and sells it to a clueless owner? IMO whoever did that has blood on their hands too.


I've often wondered about that, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of the dogs would come from awful breeders 



Mark Walden said:


> Ha!
> 
> Honestly, how can anyone get mixed up between a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and Bullmastiff, Presa Canario, or a Bandog? I swear it's the media.
> 
> ...


I wonder if that's the same lovely little black staff I met last year at LPS, I still have a sticker I got from their stand say 'I hugged a Staffy'


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Mark Walden said:


> Yes, you're right. The majority of them are relatively small dogs though.


*Staffordshire Bull Terrier:*
Size: 14-16" [36-41cm]*
Weight: Dogs 13-17kg, bitches 11.15.4 kg.

So-called "long legged Staffies" are not pure-bred and may well have some American Staffordshire Bull terrier heritage (or American Pit Bull Terrier - the two breeds are physically identical].

ETA: * as a size reference, English Cocker Spaniels (show type) are 15-16" tall.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I can't get the article to open on this computer, but will do later. Thanks for posting.
> Does the article say how they determined the breed?
> I always wonder if it occurs to anyone to go back and trace the genius breeding these mixes.
> Seriously. Who breeds a presa mix and sells it to a clueless owner? IMO whoever did that has blood on their hands too.


No it doesn't. It does say it's not one of the 'dangerous' breeds that are banned though


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Mark Walden said:


> Ha!
> 
> Honestly, how can anyone get mixed up between a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and Bullmastiff, Presa Canario, or a Bandog? I swear it's the media.
> 
> ...


Ahh what a cutie! A bit like my little Elmo.










You can't really tell his size there but he's currently 15" at the withers and weighs about 15kgs at 10 months. He shouldn't get much bigger than his dad who's 15" and 18kgs. (Mum was 14" and 15kgs)

Sorry  completely off topic, just taking an opportunity to show off the little lad


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Seriously. Who breeds a presa mix and sells it to a clueless owner? IMO whoever did that has blood on their hands too.


I wonder, too.

A well-bred, well raised Bull Mastiff from a KC breeder which has been properly socialised is one thing. My agility instructor breeds BMs and has done for over 25 years, & is also a breed club judge. While I am sure she would agree they would be dangerous in the wrong hands, the breed's temperament is known and dogs with poor or untypical temperament would not be bred from.

The Presa is a bit of an unknown quantity - not KC registered so not as easy to get unbiased information, and no way really to research temperament. Not possible for instance, unlike BMs, to go to a dog show meet some individual dogs and talk to the owners/breeders as you can with other recognised breeds (and as I do with my breed, watching the dogs in teh ring carefully and seeing whose dogs are the most relaxed and friendly etc, which are nervy or shy, and which are the most stable outside the ring as well).

Both have strong guarding instincts, although if I remember rightly the BM was once called the Gamekeeper's Night Dog - trained to find and knock down intruders and hold them 'til help arrived, but not to savage them to death!


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## Guest (May 28, 2013)

Galadriel17 said:


> No it doesn't. It does say it's not one of the 'dangerous' breeds that are banned though


Okay... just read the article. So dogos are banned in the UK but presas are not? Did anyone actually research these breeds before coming up with the banned list or did they just pick names out of a hat?
Not that I think any breed should be banned, but geez, at least make the ban logical? Never mind, bans aren't logical by nature are they?

Anyway... still trying to figure out how they confirmed the breed. If it's based on the owners, well, there are owners with dog park dogs that they claim to be a wolf, if you know what I mean...
If they're going by the dog's pedigree/papers, then I hope they name and shame the breeder.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Okay... just read the article. So dogos are banned in the UK but presas are not? Did anyone actually research these breeds before coming up with the banned list or did they just pick names out of a hat?
> Not that I think any breed should be banned, but geez, at least make the ban logical? Never mind, bans aren't logical by nature are they?
> 
> Anyway... still trying to figure out how they confirmed the breed. If it's based on the owners, well, there are owners with dog park dogs that they claim to be a wolf, if you know what I mean...
> If they're going by the dog's pedigree/papers, then I hope they name and shame the breeder.


There weren't even any dogos or filas in the country  and one tosa I think. They just chose dogs that sounded scary I think. Obviously those three breeds need experienced owners but they just went after breeds there wouldn't be much of a backlash over.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Just as an side, I'm well acquainted with how canine temperaments can change, when breeds are crossed.

Just as a Labradoodle doesn't have the same temperament or personality characteristics of a Labrador OR a Poodle, and often not something in-between but unique to that cross, so do many other cross-breeds.

I have had 7 years experience of that myself with Merlin, who is a Belgian Shepherd Groenendael x Working Sheepdog [aka Farm-bred BC].

His temperament and attitude to life has never conformed to one or the other, and I've been able to understand that a great deal more over the last 2 years. I've been meeting other Belgian Shepherd owners and breeders and their dogs, and corresponding with them plus also doing agility training with him, with a trainer who has worked a great deal with collies and WSDs.

According to my agility trainer his brain is mostly WSD - fast, smart, active. Yet he is not all WSD and his Belgian side pops up at times, the rest of the time he acts like neither breed. He is far more protective and guardy and reactive than a WSD, but that side of his brain is smart enough to work out who and what he should guard against - whether I agree or not.

Basically he's like a large guardy reactive WSD - or a super smart Belgian with a bigger brain plus an on-board dictionary. This is probably why I have found it a doddle to cope with Rue - a rescue working-line Malinois - not as much brain as Merlin, but all the reactivity and then some. My sister - who has owned GSDs for over 20 years - looked after Rue for me until she came here permanently, and found her very difficult.

A friend who breeds Malinois recently took on a puppy from her own lines, but outcrossed to a working line strain of the breed. She is having similar issues - this dog is way different to any others she has ever owned, not just in terms of energy but the way its brain works.

Moral of the story is, of course, cross breeding random breeds, including the large guarding, bull and molosser breeds, can easily produce something entirely different from the parent breeds used.


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> I've often wondered about that, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of the dogs would come from awful breeders
> 
> I wonder if that's the same lovely little black staff I met last year at LPS, I still have a sticker I got from their stand say 'I hugged a Staffy'


Yep! Sounds like the same one, they were giving those stickers out too


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## BRT (Jul 28, 2009)

ouesi said:


> While I agree with you that there is a lot of breed misidentification about, size is not why dogs have terrier in their name.
> Airedales and Black Russian Terriers are certainly not small dogs
> 
> IIRC, terrier comes from latin for "earth", as most terriers were originally dogs meant to go to ground for prey. Their tenacity though was very prized and added in to many breeds.


Off-topic, but:

The _Black Russian Terrier_ is not a terrier,
nor was it ever bred to go to ground. :nono:


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

BRT said:


> Off-topic, but:
> 
> The _Black Russian Terrier_ is not a terrier,
> nor was it ever bred to go to ground. :nono:


I cant say I know about BRT's but I do find it very strange why there are breeds out there with terrier in the name but aren't terriers?....just like the Tibetan Terrier, they're not one either..... Oooo these breeders who name them sure like to confuse us eh!


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2013)

BRT said:


> Off-topic, but:
> 
> The _Black Russian Terrier_ is not a terrier,
> nor was it ever bred to go to ground. :nono:


Chill out LOL 
I was just commenting about the "terrier" in the name.


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## Lucy Beveridge (10 mo ago)

Phoolf said:


> Good. It's been far too long since owners were made responsible for the acts of their weapons. If everyone was charged for manslaughter when these things occurred it might make them think twice.


. I totally agree, I mean what the HELL did the parents think was going to happen? They should have been arrested themselves for criminal neglect and allowing the death of a child. I have zero pity for them. It is the little girl that I feel sorry for.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lucy Beveridge said:


> . I totally agree, I mean what the HELL did the parents think was going to happen? They should have been arrested themselves for criminal neglect and allowing the death of a child. I have zero pity for them. It is the little girl that I feel sorry for.


This thread ran its course in 2013 & is not in any way related to the most recent incident, so locking it.


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