# Caucasian Lack or prey drive makes it safer ?



## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

Maybe a controversial post but certainly a post I feel is necessary after doing a search on my favoured breed the Caucasian Ovcharka.
Many it seems portray the breed as being a bigger danger to the general public then bull type breeds like Pittbulls. The simple logic being because pitts as a breed are friendly to strangers and Caucasians are by nature a guarding breed and a lot larger they must present more risk.

First for the people not aware of the breed here is a quick breed overview from champdogs.

Caucasian Shepherd Dogs - Champdogs ®

I know as group many members are very sensitive about such issues, behaviourist on a daily basis work to correct and rectify aggression in dogs and simply don't understand why some people would favour a breed that has natural aggression. This is perfectly understandable.

But I think these breeds present less danger then some bull breeds that are naturally inclined to be friendly because they have little or no prey drive. I have not researched in detail but as far as im aware the top 10 breeds listed for biting people all have prey drive. The assumption is that dogs most be aggressive to bite someone, trying to hurt a person or defending them selfs. but I would venture a guess that there are many more situations were a person can become victim to a prey motivated bite then a guarding bite.

Often people who own pitts or other bull breeds are a lot more lax in how they manage these dogs, many are seen rightly I guess as being friendly, quite small, without a badbone in their body so to begin with they are likely to have a lot more exposure to people and children in different settings.

A person with a 140-150 lb CO is very unlikely to get this lax and allow their dog offlead in a busy park or take them to the local playground. A Bull breed that is friendly outside the mode of prey can redirect this instinct by mistake. it doesnt take a genius to see how screaming children,fast movements etc could trigger a otherwise friendly bull breed to miss direct its prey drive.

Another thing, bull breeds are known for fighting beyond simply trying dominating another dog. Ive wondered if this is elevated prey drive were the dogs ability to reason is subdued perhaps by chemical reaction of some sort, sorry im not technical. But its this state of mind which is a lot more dangerous then a defensive one firstly the bite is often a gripping one, a defensive dog like a CO bites in a progressive way reactive to the persons actions. In the recent PP training I have been doing with my Caucasian and after chatting to many trainers ive noticed its alot harder to get a CO or defensive dog to hold a full bite and often they will disengage quite quickly if the man is still. You have to work quite hard to get a a grip and hold. On the other hand a prey motivated dog will happily swing of a sleeve in prey drive.

The point is the action of a defensive dog is to drive away a threat to use progressive force in relation to the threat the idea of having a CO in a neutral area mauling a non threat is silly. A prey motivated bull breed on the other hand can have pent up energy missdirect the prey drive and there are any number of prey triggers, evan a person standing still screaming in pain could mimic a prey object as could running away this would not happen with a CO. And there is no doubt in my mind that bull breeds present more danger to other dogs a CO only objective is to assert control with the mass they have they can do this by pinning another dog were as a Bullbreed is much more likely to continue beyond any such considerations and need to bite and grip.

For all you bullbreed owners out there please dont angry im not suggesting your dogs are dangerous im just saying prey drive miss directed is often overlooked.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Tere appears to be some differing opinions on whether or not a CO has a lack of prey drive.

Content / content / Caucasian Ovcharka Profile - Caucasian Ovcharka

In this article it states:

The Caucasian Shepherd Dog also differs from the majority of other LGD breeds when it comes to its primary drives, because it is more than just a typical livestock guardian which is governed by basic defense drive. Alongside only a handful of other Molossers known for being a "step above" when it comes to the seriousness with which the job of defense is regarded by such dogs, the CO also has an elevated prey drive, which is not a common characteristic of most livestock guardian breeds. Unlike many LGD's whose job was mainly centered around being a deterrent primarily and a "last resort" combatant in addition, the Caucasian Ovtcharka was not only kept to protect the flock and property, but was also expected to chase, engage and even kill those predators that refuse to back off immediately. This addition of prey drives and kill drives to its already intense defensive attitude is what sets the breed apart from most of its relatives and makes the CO an outstanding worker, but it also creates some controversy among the breed fanciers, some of which refuse to acknowledge the breed's legendary temperament for what it really is and what it has been for centuries.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

smokeybear yes i,ve seen this its from molloser dogs "wolf" i believe its debatable statement. Offcourse different lines can have different traits and some believe modern CO have the blood of other breeds some of which may have more prey. But by any measure its not their primary drive Co dont really show the same interest to chase and play tug etc. I think most would agree they have little of no prey drive compared to many breeds.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

Its differcult pehaps to define the defensive reaction as its not always typical of a LGD. In other words 0-10 in blink of an eye without fear signals and then back to 0 as if nothing happened. Were as more typical LGD reaction might be bark,hackles go away signals


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Anyway the argument is specious.

It is _people _that make dogs safe or dangerous (in the vast majority of cases) not the breed.

Which puts the onus on *US *to ensure that individual dogs/breeds are not placed with people without the appropriate level of skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to adequately care for and train them in order to ensure the safety of the dogs, themselves and those (dogs and people) who may be affected by their acts or omissions


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I think in the wrong hands and in the same quantities as Staffies etc, these dogs could become a weapon 
Many breeds could, lets hope the morons of this world don't pick on your breed

Caucasian Ovcharka, CO, Caucasian Shepherd Dog - YouTube

Caucasian Ovcharka: Winner Listicka, 22 months old - training I. - YouTube


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

All this drive talk gets me confused. In ethology, the talk of drives is still quite misunderstood and avoided. 

ALL dogs have predatory behaviours hardwired. Exactly the extent to which those behaviours fulfill a full sequence, like we see in wolves noted by Dr Mech, is what differs between breeds.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> All this drive talk gets me confused. In ethology, the talk of drives is still quite misunderstood and avoided.
> 
> ALL dogs have predatory behaviours hardwired. Exactly the extent to which those behaviours fulfill a full sequence, like we see in wolves noted by Dr Mech, is what differs between breeds.


and between individuals within breeds.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

I think its a mistake to confuse prey drive with aggression. From what I know of brain mapping studies and the research of people like Temple Grandin, the two - prey drive and aggression - operate in very different parts of the brain. 

While I believe prey drive can absolutely be dangerous to humans - namely squealing, running children, I dont think it is the danger being implied here. 

If prey drive were such a driving force in human attacks surely we would be hearing about packs of marauding grey hounds and whippets. But we dont. 

I think its important also to look at what job a breed was developed to do. Pit bulls here in the US were absolutely bred to fight other dogs. But what many forget to add to the history is that man biters were systematically culled. This is a dog who was expected to NEVER re-direct on to a human even in the throughs of a life and death fight. This is how men were able to be IN the pit with the dogs and able to handle them and separate them mid fight. Not to mention tending to wounds post fight. HA is *very* rare in the history of the bully breeds.

OTOH, CO were developed by the Russian Army to protect the bases and compounds not only from predators but also from other humans. IOW, CO were bred to fight predators including men.

But in the end, I believe ANY powerful breed not properly managed can turn in to a ticking time bomb.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> I think in the wrong hands and in the same quantities as Staffies etc, these dogs could become a weapon
> Many breeds could, lets hope the morons of this world don't pick on your breed


In both videos the CO are responding to clear threats, in the 1st a man approaches making a lot of noise being threatening and in the 2nd the owner is attacked. Both are defensive and you can be certain both have been trained to enhance their reactions. In Russia and a lot of eastern European countries they are a little less politically correct people buy dogs like these to give protection and a dogs ability to do this is valued and not frowned on. In this country the opposite is true for a lot of people. In russia if a person breaks in to a house and gets badly bitten the attitude would probably be serves you right in the UK people might say he was Hungry and only wanted to make a sandwich poor burglar :biggrin5:


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> I think its a mistake to confuse prey drive with aggression. From what I know of brain mapping studies and the research of people like Temple Grandin, the two - prey drive and aggression - operate in very different parts of the brain


Yes I imagine prey drive and [fear] defence drive are activated in different parts of the brain



> While I believe prey drive can absolutely be dangerous to humans - namely squealing, running children, I dont think it is the danger being implied here. If prey drive were such a driving force in human attacks surely we would be hearing about packs of marauding grey hounds and whippets.


It would certainly be interesting to know how many dog bites are attributed to prey drive. Its probably quite easy for it to be triggered and miss directed. im not sure it follows that domestic dogs would escape from their yards team up and run amoke in packs A gsd local to me was recently re-homed after chasing and biting a jogger on the leg.



> I think its important also to look at what job a breed was developed to do. Pit bulls here in the US were absolutely bred to fight other dogs. But what many forget to add to the history is that man biters were systematically culled. This is a dog who was expected to NEVER re-direct on to a human even in the throughs of a life and death fight. This is how men were able to be IN the pit with the dogs and able to handle them and separate them mid fight. Not to mention tending to wounds post fight. HA is *very* rare in the history of the bully breeds


This is often mentioned to in support of theory that correctly bred Pittbulls do not attack humans and it may well be the case, but who is to say the same traits of pure pittbulls could not surface differently in different environments. Plus such a dog can easly be trained to bite a sleeve to channel its prey unto a human and consider it a game a lot easier then a CO


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

I would say hardly any dog attacks are due to prey drive when it is on a human. However things are different for dog on dog attacks as per the recent 8-10 Greyhounds/Lurchers that attacked a small dog.

Also in the title is "or" meant to be "of"? It's been confusing me.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> Also in the title is "or" meant to be "of"? It's been confusing me


whoops i did try to edit it


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> This is often mentioned to in support of theory that correctly bred Pittbulls do not attack humans and it may well be the case, but who is to say the same traits of pure pittbulls could not surface differently in different environments. Plus such a dog can easly be trained to bite a sleeve to channel its prey unto a human and consider it a game a lot easier then a CO


Could not the same be said of a CO - that their guarding traits could surface differently in different environments? Could that not be said of ANY breed?

Im not sure what youre trying to prove here - that COs arent dangerous dogs? Well, no, no dog is dangerous properly managed. But if theyre not a formidable opponent, why do people keep them as guardian dogs? 
Or are you trying to say that bully breeds are inherently more dangerous than COs? What would be your point of trying to prove that? 
I guess Im just confused as to the point of your OP.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Any dog can be a danger. I don`t think an entire breed can be summed up as having prey drive or not. I`ve had GSDs - some were prey-driven, some weren`t. I expect all dogs differ in their behaviours within breeds.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rona said:


> I think in the wrong hands these dogs could become a weapon
> *lets hope the morons of this world don't pick on your breed.*


They already did Rona. This is just another thread attempting to promote the breed.
After all, and in evidence, this member and her cohort (Jason) are self confessed experts with the breed and have done all they can to purposely ignore valid observations and, therefore, they should have no justifiable reason to ask questions they apparently have all the answers to.

Status and image is destroying the reputation of breeds and killing Dogs!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

From time to time a "previously practically unheard of exotic breed" is hailed as the next (insert relevant politically incorrect title).

The fact is, that despite the fashions that come and go amongst those whose whose main preoccupation is compariing measurements of certain parts of their anatomy, there has yet to be a breed invented/developed/created/trained that can meet the sheer range of pursuits that the good old GSD can meet. 

A Malinois may be faster and more athletic, other breeds may be heavier, but the GSD did not get to where it is today in the field of law enforcement, non compliance dogs, security, trackers, you name it they have done it, by being second best. 

A CO may look impressive (to the unititiated) but I venture to guess that it might find meeting the normal range of activities expected from most military/defence/police/security dogs a little out of its comfort zone.

As for any sporting disciplines I cannot see it going over a 6ft scale or A frame very often.

I am sure this will be relegated to the shelf where several of its predecessors have taken up residence.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> A CO may look impressive (to the unititiated) but I venture to guess that it might find meeting the normal range of activities expected from most military/defence/police/security dogs a little out of its comfort zone.


Certainly CO are not as versatile as many breeds on the other hand its probably fair to say no breed in the Uk can protect as well untrained in my opinion. Zaros im sorry if I have ruffled your feathers im just trying to despell the myth that LGD types are automaticly more dangerous then other breeds.

Certain sections of the dog fraternity are negative to guarding breeds and owners and its unfair. The are no LGD types in the top 10 breeds biting breeds. We are not experts on this breed but we do have a keen interest in dog matters. Why dont you tell us about your experiences Zaros am I right in thinking you own a Sars and live in finland ? I imagine legislation for dogs in your country is quite strict.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> no dog is dangerous properly managed


Ouesi very valid point


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

_The are no LGD types in the top 10 breeds biting breeds._

And do you think there might be a reason for this (other than the claim they could be less "dangerous")

Eg numbers.......... 

If you are going to start to use statistics always remember, what many others forget................

Correlation does not equal causation............... 

There is no "unfairness" in it, that is people's opinions.

Many people are terrified of GSD/Rottweilers I do not consider that "unfair" any more than I think it is "unfair" that people are frightened of spiders.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> Certainly CO are not as versatile as many breeds on the other hand its probably fair to say no breed in the Uk can protect as well untrained in my opinion. Zaros im sorry if I have ruffled your feathers im just trying to despell the myth that LGD types are automaticly more dangerous then other breeds.
> 
> Certain sections of the dog fraternity are negative to guarding breeds and owners and its unfair. The are no LGD types in the top 10 breeds biting breeds. We are not experts on this breed but we do have a keen interest in dog matters. Why dont you tell us about your experiences Zaros am I right in thinking you own a Sars and live in finland ? I imagine legislation for dogs in your country is quite strict.


There are many contradictions in the post above. In one breath you say that no breed protects better than a CO, in the next you say LGDs are no more dangerous than any other breed. Well for one, from the little I know, CO are much more than LGDs (unless the ones used to patrol the Berlin Wall were protecting against wolves), but more importantly, how exactly do these dogs protect if not with their teeth? If they are the best at protection untrained, would it not stand to reason that they would be the most apt to hurt someone with their teeth?
FWIW, Im not trying to say that CO are an inherently dangerous breed, Im just pointing out that if youre going to claim to have the best protection dog, you cant in the next breath say your dog is no more dangerous than any other breed. Either the dog knows how to use its teeth on man or it doesnt.

I find it amusing that you back up your argument by saying there are no LGD in the top 10 breeds implicated in dog bites. Do you not think that perhaps the RARITY of most LGD and the fact that most live isolated from humans guarding a flock might play a role?


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

Valid point smokey bear  its just i looked back through some threads and was abit disppointed by the negative talk from dog lovers, i,d expect it more from people outside the dogworld.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> In one breath you say that no breed protects better than a CO, in the next you say LGDs are no more dangerous than any other breed


Its not a contradiction I explained why in the first post, yes CO are more dangerous to home invaders or someone wishing you harm. But I believe people have the right to be safe in their own homes and walking down the street.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> most LGD and the fact that most live isolated from humans guarding a flock might play a role?


there are probably less LGD types guarding flocks now days


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> Its not a contradiction I explained why in the first post, yes CO are more dangerous to home invaders or someone wishing you harm. But I believe people have the right to be safe in their own homes and walking down the street.


Yes, everyone has a right to feel safe. And knowing there is some yahoo who couldnt read dog body language even if it came with subtitles out walking his CO on a flexi and training him in protection even though the breed doesnt need any training to protect, does not make me feel very safe. Thats just me though.
IOW one could argue that by you walking down the street with your big dog infringes on their rights to feel safe. Maybe then theyll get a bigger, badder dog. Yeah, bit of a slippery slope there that I dont see ending well.



rheasmum said:


> there are probably less LGD types guarding flocks now days


Maybe so in the UK, not here. Most LGD around here do exactly that - guard livestock.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

rheasmum said:


> Its not a contradiction I explained why in the first post, yes CO are more dangerous to home invaders or someone wishing you harm. But I believe people have the right to be safe in their own homes and walking down the street.


I have a yorkie and Lhasa/poodle cross and feel safe in my own home and walking down the street. If anything did happen I'd see it as my role to protect them. I watched that you tube video and would find any dog that responded like that scary. I guess people like different things from their dogs.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rheasmum said:


> Its not a contradiction I explained why in the first post, yes CO are more dangerous to home invaders or someone wishing you harm. But I believe people have the right to be safe in their own homes and walking down the street.


How does your dog know when you walk down a street who is a threat?
Would a child bumping into you be a threat?
How about a person with Tourette Syndrome?
A person with a disability? Now even my dog can become a little agitated around someone who moves oddly, he however has no guard/fight/prey instincts at all and just tries to avoid them


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rona said:


> How does your dog know when you walk down a street who is a threat?
> Would a child bumping into you be a threat?
> How about a person with Tourette Syndrome?
> A person with a disability? Now even my dog can become a little agitated around someone who moves oddly, he however has no guard/fight/prey instincts at all and just tries to avoid them


Or someone coming in to your home uninvited to save your life like a first responder or paramedic. Which is a actually a more likely scenario than a home invader breaking in to a clearly occupied home.
Nothing like knowing someone is in their home dying and having to wait for animal control to come and deal with the dog first. But hey, one must feel safe in their home 

For anyone interested in the right to feel safe and how well that panned out for Floridians with their stand your ground law, google Treyvon Martin.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> And knowing there is some yahoo who couldnt read dog body language even if it came with subtitles out walking his CO on a flexi


and thats not provocative ? im not sure whats thats based on !! we do protection training for the control elements im am not suprised that you have weaved the thread to make attacks as you have done on every other thread.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> and thats not provocative ? im not sure whats thats based on !! we do protection training for the control elements im am not suprised that you have weaved the thread to make attacks as you have done on every other thread.


If you dont walk your dog on a flexi then its not directed at you is it?

You deliberately started a controversial thread and then get edgy because it gets controversial?


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

It's owners such as the OP that has led to 2 breeds owned by them being banned in Denmark. As well as one being restricted in parts of the US. :frown2: :frown2: :frown2:

They are lethal in the wrong hands. But the OP already knows they need an experienced owner, seeing as he* gave up his first CO due to not being able to handle it. It was infact rehomed to a AmBull breeder as can be seen from his own posts elsewhere.

*(unless somehow his gf makes the same spelling mistakes and has access to her boyfriends various online accounts, I believe the OP is a pf banned member. Hence the "he".)

And the only reason he keeps starting these CO threads is to push the Champdogs link he never fails to include up in search engine rankings. The write up on the breed on Champdogs was written by the OP. Hence why he is the person in the breeder section.

Push that Champdogs link up the rankings= more chance people will contact him about the breed, and not the members of the 3 Europe wide breed clubs he has been kicked out of.

I have currently reported the OP to Trading Standards for posting scam ads online. He makes out he has CO puppies available for sale at £1000 each. The truth is (as confirmed by the OP in another thread on here, that provided my evidence) no puppies exist it is a ploy to get people to gain information from them and again not the breed clubs they have been kicked out of.

All these threads and the fake puppy ads all help in pushing his advice up the rankings.

So if looking for advice on a CO, do not get it from Lutons answer to Cesar Millan.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

Rona, You train and manage your dog if needed you muzzle it


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> It's owners such as the OP that has led to 2 breeds owned by them being banned in Denmark


How bloody dare you attack us like that !!! what a disgrace totally baseless !! every thread i have posted on... you,,ouesi have weaved the thread to make personal attacks !! its blatant !! and very negative indeed its horrible that new members are treated this way because a few online thugs have nothing better to do !!


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> How bloody dare you attack us like that !!! what a disgrace totally baseless !! every thread i have posted on... you,,ouesi have weaved the thread to make personal attacks !! its blatant !! and very negative indeed its horrible that new members are treated this way because a few online thugs have nothing better to do !!


I will happily provide my proof if you want. I will even make my own thread on the matter, using evidence mostly supplied by yourself.

Let me know, if you want it posted.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

rheasmum said:


> How bloody dare you attack us like that !!! what a disgrace totally baseless !! every thread i have posted on... you,,ouesi have weaved the thread to make personal attacks !! its blatant !! and very negative indeed its horrible that new members are treated this way because a few online thugs have nothing better to do !!


The quote is not from Ouesi's post?

No idea what this is all about but have just one question - safer to what/whom, not many dogs around with a high prey drive for people


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> The quote is not from Ouesi's post?
> 
> No idea what this is all about but have just one question - safer to what/whom, not many dogs around with a high prey drive for people


No its not. But the OP is threatened by me, maybe because my dogs are bigger


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Oh and you're not new, this is your 3rd account (the other 2 got banned).

I have said all I need to here. I will await the OP's response on the providing proof matter, otherwise I will leave this matter here for now.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rheasmum said:


> Maybe a controversial post but certainly a post I feel is necessary after doing a search on my favoured breed the Caucasian Ovcharka.
> Many it seems portray the breed as being a bigger danger to the general public then bull type breeds like Pittbulls. The simple logic being because pitts as a breed are friendly to strangers and Caucasians are by nature a guarding breed and a lot larger they must present more risk.
> 
> First for the people not aware of the breed here is a quick breed overview from champdogs.
> ...


Siberian huskies are known, not only for their very high prey drive, but for their gentle friendly to nature towards people aswell, they accept anyone and everyone... even a burgler would be welcomed lol, ...so i would say this dispels your theory that prey drive has anything to do with aggression.

.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> No its not. But the OP is threatened by me, maybe because my dogs are bigger


the op is threatened by anyone that asks a few questions or has differing opinions if anyone dares disagree they accused of being in with other breeders or owners who hate them both we are even named on threads as aggressors when we havent even posted on them pathetic.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rheasmum said:


> Rona, You train and manage your dog if needed you muzzle it


That doesn't really answer the question 
I've had a scout through your videos and came up with this one

[strange object prt 4] Caucasian Ovcharka Character test [swatt] - YouTube

Just wondered what you were trying to do here?

Must admit that this one worried me a little

rov meeting goats - YouTube

I know this was a while ago, but have you now got more control?
I'd be very nervous about meeting someone who could not control their dog, even on lead


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rona said:


> Must admit that this one worried me a little
> 
> rov meeting goats - YouTube
> 
> ...


whats even more worrying the breed is supposed to be a livestock guardian


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I've read a bit of all of this and that which has been posted around the forum and I'm stumped as to what use this breed will be on the farm of someone's mum that got mentioned? The last time I checked there weren't any predators of size that would require the use of this type of dog and as EU agricultural law insists on livestock checks twice a day a fox would be disturbed or defended against by the ewe. If you want to protect a flock in the Uk get an Alpacca.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I've read a bit of all of this and that which has been posted around the forum and I'm stumped as to what use this breed will be on the farm of someone's mum that got mentioned? The last time I checked there weren't any predators of size that would require the use of this type of dog and as EU agricultural law insists on livestock checks twice a day a fox would be disturbed or defended against by the ewe. If you want to protect a flock in the Uk get an Alpacca.


That was another member, Bullterriers97???? (something like that) who is getting one to protect a farm.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> They are lethal in the wrong hands. But the OP already knows they need an experienced owner, seeing as he* gave up his first CO due to not being able to handle it. It was infact rehomed to a AmBull breeder as can be seen from his own posts elsewhere.


Why have you started attacking my boyfriend for no reason ? Every thread now !! this statement was first perpetuated by BYB in England to whom you are clearly linked. Odessa was a CAO and yes she did need to be rehomed because the new owners took over management of the kennel and removed the live in caravans. Its disgusting that you should manipulate and distort such a sad situation to make a personal attack.



> And the only reason he keeps starting these CO threads is to push the Champdogs link he never fails to include up in search engine rankings. The write up on the breed on Champdogs was written by the OP. Hence why he is the person in the breeder section.


Both me and my boyfriend will promote Health screening, Champ dogs is a site that is well known to promote ethical breeding as such it is right and proper to associate the breed with the site to further this cause ! Im sorry you support breeders who have for years bred litters without health screening. We are listed as owners on the site and offer to help people find reputable breeders it is something we will do despite the constant online attacks !!



> 3 Europe wide breed clubs he has been kicked out of.


I knew it would not take long for you to list idiotic charges against my boyfriend to slur his character, when you refer to 3 Euro clubs lets be abit more precise both me and my boyfriend are members of over 30 face-books groups. We certainly dont keep track nor care for angering groups byb have set up to promote them selfs.



> I have currently reported the OP to Trading Standards for posting scam ads online. He makes out he has CO puppies available for sale at £1000 each.


Good your energy would be better spent supporting our efforts to bring in health screening for this breed instead of working with your unethical BYB friends to slur my boyfriends character. What possible benefit do these attacks serve ? Other then to deflect away from the fact that all CO breeders in the UK care very little for ethical practice. I hope people can see through this. Both me and my boyfriend will use any means at our disposal to highlight the issue of health screening and to warn people away from unethical breeders.



> All these threads and the fake puppy ads all help in pushing his advice up the rankings.


Which is a good thing ? Or do you support unethical breeders that dont health screen their dogs ?



> So if looking for advice on a CO, do not get it from Lutons answer to Cesar Millan


Juvenile idiocy we are not breeders but just for the record if anyone is interested in this breed please read my website and be aware the CO breed in the UK is overrun by unethical mobsters and an army of online thugs !!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rheasmum said:


> just for the record if anyone is interested in this breed please read my website and be aware the CO breed in the UK is overrun by unethical mobsters and an army of online thugs !!


Could we have a link to your site please?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

DoggieBag said:


> That was another member, Bullterriers97???? (something like that) who is getting one to protect a farm.


Ah right. Still no idea why though and I apologise if I directed at the wrong person or it came across that way, I can't keep a track of who's who


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

diablo said:


> whats even more worrying the breed is supposed to be a livestock guardian


With no prey drive! LOL!!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> I've read a bit of all of this and that which has been posted around the forum and I'm stumped as to what use this breed will be on the farm of someone's mum that got mentioned? The last time I checked there weren't any predators of size that would require the use of this type of dog and as EU agricultural law insists on livestock checks twice a day a fox would be disturbed or defended against by the ewe. If you want to protect a flock in the Uk get an Alpacca.


I do believe there are more and more livestock thefts. Though keeping a dog that may bite an intruder in this country without the owners presence, is a very risky thing to do.

Farmers urged to do more to prevent rustling - 2/3/2012 - Farmers Weekly


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

I hope the moderators can see this on every thread I have posted 3 people have started to attack me Ouesi,Diablo and Doggybag any impartial person will be able to see that. The problem is others are then drawn into it or called upon by the said members and the thread then reverts to a witch hunt. In which i and my boyfriend are suddenly on trial for non existent crimes. It is infuriating that a group with so much to offer, with so many learned dog lovers is Hijacked by a crew with probable links to unethical breeders in the England.This was a peaceful debate until Ouesi,Diablo and Doggybag got involved and started making personal attacks. 

I would ask others not to get taken in by these online trouble makers, lets keep it postive we all share a interest in dogs and can talk in a civil way


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Right I have had enough of you and your incorrect assumptions I am connected to CO breeders. I am in no way connected to any CO breeders, either in this country or the others your name has a blackmark against.

However, carry on with your lack of responsibilities as a dog owner and you will surely find out how me and/or my colleagues are connected to bad dog owners.

And shut up with your false claims you are the first CO owner to hip check the breed in the UK. You are far from being the first UK CO owner to do so. In fact looking at your CO's movement in one vid and comparing it to a CO in the show ring, it does not take an expert to see Rov is nowhere near as good on the move.

So don't you worry I do spend my time stamping out unethical breeders, just as much as I do on cracking down on bad dog owners under UK Law. 

Oh and Champdogs have set rules on who can post/breeds etc. You break those rules, so do not expect your ad to stay up long.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

If people cant share Opinions without a few online thugs bullying them its a sad indictment on the group


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> I hope the moderators can see this on every thread I have posted 3 people have started to attack me Ouesi,Diablo and Doggybag any impartial person will be able to see that. The problem is others are then drawn into it or called upon by the said members and the thread then reverts to a witch hunt. In which i and my boyfriend are suddenly on trial for non existent crimes. It is infuriating that a group with so much to offer, with so many learned dog lovers is Hijacked by a crew with probable links to unethical breeders in the England.This was a peaceful debate until Ouesi,Diablo and Doggybag got involved and started making personal attacks.
> 
> I would ask others not to get taken in by these online trouble makers, lets keep it postive we all share a interest in dogs and can talk in a civil way


You do realize Im not even on the same side as the Atlantic as you yes? 
How would I know about BYB in England?

I questioned your self-appointed knowledge and experience, that is all. If you find that upsetting, perhaps you should not start threads purporting to know about something you clearly do not - prey drive and aggression. <-- that is not an attack, that is an observation based entirely on that which YOU have written on this thread.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> Why have you started attacking my boyfriend for no reason ? Every thread now !! this statement was first perpetuated by BYB in England to whom you are clearly linked. Odessa was a CAO and yes she did need to be rehomed because the new owners took over management of the kennel and removed the live in caravans. Its disgusting that you should manipulate and distort such a sad situation to make a personal attack.


surely you`d have known all that well in advance before even going to the trouble of importing ? Odessa was infact rehomed at a year old to a breeder of amstaffs [illegal dogs] because apparently she couldn`t be controlled , it`s information all over the internet and didn`t take long to find when you named the dog in one of your posts



> now claimin he the founder of the breed in the uk pmsl dont make me laugh currie u got rid of the first one u imported coz u couldnt control her


post from a message board


> i have been looking for a central asian ovcharka/shepered/alabai there is a dog called odessa and her owner used to be a person called jason lee currie and the current owners are also apparentley breeders of am staffs


go figure



rheasmum said:


> Both me and my boyfriend will promote Health screening, Champ dogs is a site that is well known to promote ethical breeding as such it is right and proper to associate the breed with the site to further this cause ! Im sorry you support breeders who have for years bred litters without health screening. We are listed as owners on the site and offer to help people find reputable breeders it is something we will do despite the constant online attacks !!


champdogs to my knowledge promotes kennel club recognised breeds the CO don`t currently have that status as far as i am aware so should champdogs stumble across it your listings will be removed.



rheasmum said:


> We certainly dont keep track nor care for angering groups byb have set up to promote them selfs.


oh but you do , all the feathers you`ve ruffled and the arguments you`ve started are all over youtube 



rheasmum said:


> Good your energy would be better spent supporting our efforts .


i`ll not support anyone who has such a clear disregard for their own breeds safety and welfare in public situations.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

Ouesi BYB here and in the USA share the same beliefs and support each other online !!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right I have had enough of you and your incorrect assumptions I am connected to CO breeders. I am in no way connected to any CO breeders, either in this country or the others your name has a blackmark against.

However, carry on with your lack of responsibilities as a dog owner and you will surely find out how me and/or my colleagues are connected to bad dog owners.

Doggiebag i believe



> And shut up with your false claims you are the first CO owner to hip check the breed in the UK. You are far from being the first UK CO owner to do so. In fact looking at your CO's movement in one vid and comparing it to a CO in the show ring, it does not take an expert to see Rov is nowhere near as good on the move.


Its not a false claim at all anyone is welcome to ring the BVA !! thanks for the attack on our dog his hip score is 5/3 elbows 0/0



> So don't you worry I do spend my time stamping out unethical breeders, just as much as I do on cracking down on bad dog owners under UK Law.


If you say so



> Oh and Champdogs have set rules on who can post/breeds etc. You break those rules, so do not expect your ad to stay up long


We know the rules thanks,, its your unethical breeder friends that wont be able to list on it,,,what a shame !!


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

It's quite funny that the 3 supposed supporters of CO BYB's in the UK do not own one. How exactly are we supporting them??????


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rheasmum said:


> Zaros im sorry if I have ruffled your feathers.


I rather feel that you're playing my annoyance down a little with the above statement.

You accuse me of being a supporter of BYB's in both the UK and the USA and you think you just may have 'Ruffled my Feathers'

Are you entirely ignorant?


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

> Right I have had enough of you and your incorrect assumptions I am connected to CO breeders. I am in no way connected to any CO breeders, either in this country or the others your name has a blackmark against.


Yes you are doggiebag !!



> However, carry on with your lack of responsibilities as a dog owner and you will surely find out how me and/or my colleagues are connected to bad dog owners.


Is that a threat ? you welcome to visit anytime doggybag like we tell all the other BYB mob !!


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

Just to try and get things somewhat back on topic...

I dont think there is anything wrong with having a dog in part as protection - or more accurately as a deterrent factor. Part of the reason we have great danes is because of their protective instincts. We live literally in the middle of nowhere and my kids are often out adventuring on our property and the adjacent 500 acres of unused land. Plenty of wildlife including bears and coyotes around. I feel better knowing they have 2 sometimes 3 dogs with great instincts shadowing them. 
Nothing wrong with using a dog as protection - that has been done I believe throughout the history of dog/human evolution.

However, these instincts in breeds naturally more inclined to protect, MUST be properly channeled and managed. An XL dog without proper bite inhibition and socialization is the stuff BSL is made of.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

ZAROS i dont think you support byb maybe your just put out because your a resident expert on the breeds so maybe you consider us to be a threat. We are happy to learn from your experiences . The problem is because you are jumping on a bandwagon with 3 people who support these byb it has a negative effect.


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

thanks for being more postive ouesi


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> ZAROS i dont think you support byb maybe your just put out because your a resident expert on the breeds so maybe you consider us to be a threat. We are happy to learn from your experiences . The problem is because you are jumping on a bandwagon with 3 people who support these byb it has a negative effect.


just keep on with your untrue statements , say them enough times you might actually start to believe them yourself
you are suspicious of anyone that questions you , so if we can`t agree with what you do or you say , we must be `in` with the other crowd , right?
never heard anything so ridiculous in all my life , how old are you for christs sake


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> Yes you are doggiebag !!
> 
> Is that a threat ? you welcome to visit anytime doggybag like we tell all the other BYB mob !!


Oh sure I am. Just like the others you are accusing of being connected. We all joined here well before you, in the hope you would one day join so we could tarnish your name. We even ignored other threads on CO's, and solely waited for you to join. Thank god you did hey?? 

And thanks for the invite. But I will decline for now.

The thing is if you were a good representative for the breed, I would take you up on your offer, I would love to meet a CO.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> ZAROS i dont think you support byb maybe your just put out because your a resident expert on the breeds so maybe you consider us to be a threat. We are happy to learn from your experiences . The problem is because you are *jumping on a bandwagon with 3 people who support these byb* it has a negative effect.


Oh for Petes sake!
The ONLY person I know who breeds LGD is a gal who I train with (who *gasp* clicker trains her dogs). She breeds CAS and her dogs are ALL fully health tested, and shown in conformation as well as obedience and other performance events. I dont own a LGD in any shape or form so how I could be supporting BYB is really an enigma to me.

Can we SERIOUSLY please drop it now and discuss the issue at hand? Protection, prey drive, aggression....???


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rheasmum said:


> ZAROS i dont think you support byb maybe your just put out because your a resident expert on the breeds so maybe *you consider us to be a threat*. *We are happy to learn from your experiences.* .


*In the first instance;*









*And in the second;*


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

moderators please look through this thread when you get time and see how the same 3 members have hijacked the thread to make personal attacks !!


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> moderators please look through this thread when you get time and see how the same 3 members have hijacked the thread to make personal attacks !!


i`m sure the mods will also check the thread that was removed yesterday that linked to your own facebook account jason


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

add the 4th the last poster !! Zaros !! 4 members bringing the group down !!

am allowed to start a thread highlighting the BYB in the UK and naming shaming people ?


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> add the 4th the last poster !! Zaros !! 4 members bringing the group down !!
> 
> am allowed to start a thread highlighting the BYB in the UK and naming shaming people ?


You will have to check with the mods if that is allowed. (I think).


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rheasmum said:


> add the 4th the last poster !! Zaros !! 4 members bringing the group down !!
> 
> am allowed to start a thread highlighting the BYB in the UK and naming shaming people ?


You're not! You are simply finding an excuse to promote your own web site and the breed which has no place or role in the UK!


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> add the 4th the last poster !! Zaros !! 4 members bringing the group down !!
> 
> am allowed to start a thread highlighting the BYB in the UK and naming shaming people ?


yeah of course
now can someone pass me some tena lady before i piss myself laughing


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## rheasmum (Apr 5, 2012)

Diablo am i not allowed to link a video to my bf facebook account ? im not the one twisting a thread to make personal attacks !! Mods have a choice they can be fair and act against obvious bullying or condone it. Totally up to them !!


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

rheasmum said:


> Diablo am i not allowed to link a video to my bf facebook account ? im not the one twisting a thread to make personal attacks !! Mods have a choice they can be fair and act against obvious bullying or condone it. Totally up to them !!


why not link to your own   seeing as you obviously share the same interests


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closed so that this can be looked at due to several reports.


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