# Can't believe how defensive people are over dry food



## Kelly1978 (Aug 4, 2013)

I haven't been on here for a few months, been really busy settling into my first year of a nursing degree and with a hubby, 3 boys and 2 cats to look after I haven't had much free time!! My two cats, Bob & Marley are currently at the vets being neutered and I'm worried sick so I've come on here for moral support lol!! Just wanted a rant over how defensive cat owners can get when I try to advise them against feeding their cats dry food! It's so difficult to try and persuade them of the benefits of raw and how bad dry can be for cats, my friend feeds her cat Iams dry and she swears by it, her cat has no health problems (yet!!) and the vet recommends it so it must be okay!! My sister-in law fed her cat dry food all his life, he died from kidney stones but when I try and tell her that his dry food diet probably contributed to this she will not believe me because the vet recommended it and even recommended a very expensive dry food especially for cats with kidney stones so it must be okay!! Sorry to rant but I just get so frustrated! Surely vets have a responsibility to inform owners of the dangers of feeding a complete dry food diet?!


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Try not to worry about your boys - I'm sure they will be absolutely fine. (Says the woman who sat in the vets waiting room the whole time her boy was under GA having his teeth done.......  )

Sadly, too many vets in the UK are clueless when it comes to diets for cats. The vet schools have a 3hr seminar from Royal Canin & Hills and the kids come out believing that dry is the best thing since sliced bread. Slaves are then advised to feed dry food 'because it is good for their teeth' (b0ll0x!) and rarely question this advice because they think their vets are all knowing on this issues.

I have had the same problems when I 'suggest' to people they might want to move over to a wet diet - "Oh but my vet swears by 'dry food brand' so what makes you - who is not a vet - think you know more than him?" 

I usually bombard them with a few facts and include the words 'diabetes', kidney failure', possible shorter life span' and 'lots of money in bills' - the latter is especially good for making them pay attention. 

Finally, suggest they try wet for one month and, if they don't see or feel any difference in the quality of their cats coat & clear eyes, then they can go back. Many do it just to prove you wrong and end up being converted.  


.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I know exactly what you mean, I've had the same trouble with my friends. I think the main problem is vets promoting dry food, the manufacturers aren't stupid, they strike deals with the very people who owners believe know whats best for pets. At the end of the day its all about money which is more important that the animals' welfare. I think, for a lot of owners too, dry food is much more convenient and possibly cheaper than wet. Not much you can do if people won't listen. Whilst I understand that vets aren't experts in nutrition, most of them have pets of their own and if we know it, why don't they? 
I'm sure your two will be fine though I know its no use saying don't worry, we all do, but they will soon be home and romping about as usual.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

It's appalling to think that vets really do know that what they're advising is harmful. I find that amazing and horrifying. But they can't really all be that ignorant or brainwashed can they??!

I mean it's their professional responsibility to know what's best for animals - and cats are the most popular of all pets - and the internet is FULL of warnings about the dangers of dry food, and warnings from very well-qualified people.

I think if a vet advised me that dry was better than wet I'd have to just look them right in the eye and ask "you don't really _honestly_ believe that do you?" If they said yes I'd have to ask for the reasons for that belief, ie the hard evidence. If none was available it would seem reasonable to tell them "thanks, but I don't want to deal with you anymore on account of I think you're incompetent and/or corrupt."


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## lazydays (Mar 1, 2014)

I feed a mixture of both at the moment, mainly because I'm a bit confused by the raw diet. Is there any raw meat that cats shouldn't eat? Are there any wet foods to avoid? Whiskas seems to make my boy poo rocks lol. I'm lucky he's a real pig and it's hard to find something he won't eat so I'm quite open to changing his diet. Any tips?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

The wet foods to avoid are those with sugars or cereal fillers. The supermarket brands are much less good that many available online. If the label is in German it's often a good sign. 

As for raw meats I think anything we can eat they can eat, mammals and birds, but avoid fish except in small quantities. The main issue with raw feeding is the need to balance the food. Cats are less flexible than dogs or humans with their diet.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

It is frustrating, but all we can do is keep educating. Some people will hear, investigate further, learn, and make changes, to the benefit of their cats, then they will start spreading the word too. The others..there are always going to be some people we cannot reach. 

I know someone who feeds her cats Iams because her vet told her it is the "best thing you can feed a cat". Her cats are obese and die young. She's lost one to pancreatitis at 11, one to a combination of urinary tract disease/kidney disease/diabetes at 12, and another, 11, is sick with some undiagnosed ailment. The two newest cats, not quite 2 years old, are already morbidly obese, after being with her less than a year.

But she won't hear that the horrible diet they are on has anything to do with any of it.

Don't give up sharing what you know. Even one mind changed is success.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Hear, hear. Green pea!

PS Green pea not allowed. Pah!


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Ok, you don't want owners to feed dry, but it doesn't mean they have to go to the rigmarole of feeding raw. I feed a mixture of wet pouches and dry, the amount of dry food they get is only a small handful as a snack at tea time and then at night time (partly to encourage them downstairs to lock them in the downstairs area). So they don't get the problems associated with dry food.


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## KEhleyr (Jul 24, 2011)

I got a little booklet with my kitten from royal canin. It says not to feed raw and dry food does not cause stones. I lol'd but some people will actually believe it. It's sad the way they give out false advice just for money.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

KEhleyr said:


> I got a little booklet with my kitten from royal canin. It says not to feed raw and dry food does not cause stones. I lol'd but some people will actually believe it. It's sad the way they give out false advice just for money.


I got one of those, had a skim through it and decided it was mostly rubbish.

I won't cut dry out completely as it is perfect in treat feeders but all cats are on wet or raw food as their primary diet as I am very conscious of kidney problems. Once a week they get sardines mushed with extra water and if I have a roast chicken I make a broth for them.

I have never really had a conversation with my vet about what I feed them but I do recall them pushing Royal Canin food after Elise had her tooth out which wasn't really needed. I am pretty certain they would be a dry food advocate so it isn't really surprising that people think it is a better food for them.


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## raverminx (Dec 19, 2011)

my fussy furballs refuse point blank to eat wet food, ive tried every wet food possible and they wont have none of it. They wont even eat fresh fish, chicken etc. 
The vet has advised to just let them have dry food but the ones without cereal in it like applaws. The vet didnt recomend me any certain brands, buts it the case my cats either starve or just let them have what they like. 

i will try again to get them to eat wet food over a period of time, introducing it slowly but at the moment they are on dry food. 
my 11 year old has been on dry food all her life and she has perfect teeth, and after a check up is in perfect health. None of them are over weight either!

But i see where you are coming from, and know wet is best. applaws seem like a good brand as its 80% meat and no cereal. at the moment its better than nothing, and loads better than other dry food


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Raverminx - you could try a dry brand called Orijin which is slightly better than Applaws as there is a concern on the ash content in that.

You can get Orijin in [email protected] or on Zooplus which is most likely cheaper.

Pet Supplies, Pet Food, Dog Food, Cat Food and Pet Accessories at Zooplus


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

i used to feed dry only as my vet said it helped their teeth ....... but since Smokey died ( he was only two) from a blockage and he couldn't wee, so i rushed him to the vet who tried to empty it but he had a heart attack, and died while under the anaesthetic. so i started looking into the foods, and found a lot of people saying dry is not good ,so now all mine are on wet food,


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## raverminx (Dec 19, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> Raverminx - you could try a dry brand called Orijin which is slightly better than Applaws as there is a concern on the ash content in that.
> 
> You can get Orijin in [email protected] or on Zooplus which is most likely cheaper.
> 
> Pet Supplies, Pet Food, Dog Food, Cat Food and Pet Accessories at Zooplus


im off to p&h in a bit actually so will pick some of the orijin up. thanks for the heads up


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

raverminx said:


> im off to p&h in a bit actually so will pick some of the orijin up. thanks for the heads up


I am not sure that PAH sell Orijen, I always bought it online.
You could also look into Thrive dried food

100% real dry cat food - Thrive PremiumPlus | Thrive Pet Foods.
I feed a little of this to my cats and they all seem to like it.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> *I am not sure that PAH sell Orijen*, I always bought it online.
> You could also look into Thrive dried food
> 
> 100% real dry cat food - Thrive PremiumPlus | Thrive Pet Foods.
> I feed a little of this to my cats and they all seem to like it.


I got a small bag at my local one but that was 3yrs ago - I see it is not on their website so maybe they no longer do it.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

MoggyBaby said:


> I got a small bag at my local one but that was 3yrs ago - I see it is not on their website so maybe they no longer do it.


_when i fed mine dry it was orijen and i sometimes got it from there, but the last few times i went they didn't do it._


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

Charity said:


> I know exactly what you mean, I've had the same trouble with my friends. I think the main problem is vets promoting dry food, the manufacturers aren't stupid, they strike deals with the very people who owners believe know whats best for pets. At the end of the day its all about money which is more important that the animals' welfare. I think, for a lot of owners too, dry food is much more convenient and possibly cheaper than wet. Not much you can do if people won't listen. Whilst I understand that vets aren't experts in nutrition, most of them have pets of their own and if we know it, why don't they?
> I'm sure your two will be fine though I know its no use saying don't worry, we all do, but they will soon be home and romping about as usual.


You could turn this comment on its head and say that those who feed raw....

I've no wish to cause trouble but those if us who feed dry are constantly made to feel like we're killing our cats. My cats won't eat much wet and it does bother me but I've tried so many types of wet. I don't usually enter these discussions but thought I'd provide an alternative view.

EDIT: APOLOGIES RO CHARITY, I WAS ON MY PHONE AND MEANT TO LINK TO OP.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Julie100uk said:


> You could turn this comment on its head and say that those who feed raw....
> 
> I've no wish to cause trouble but those if us who feed dry are constantly made to feel like we're killing our cats. My cats won't eat much wet and it does bother me but I've tried so many types of wet. I don't usually enter these discussions but thought I'd provide an alternative view.


There is a big difference between those who know wet is best but their furries refuse to eat it and those who adamantly stick to dry because their vet said so and won't look into the matter further.

You know wet is better, you have tried to feed it. You can't help what your cats will not eat. The main point is that you tried. And therein lies the difference. 

.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

It's true. I bet there's a lot of folks who feed dry and keep quiet on here about it because of the way we wetties bang on and on. In the end you do what's best for your cat, and so long as you know what's going on, that's the best you can do. 

No excuse for the vets though! 

I'm passionate about wet because I'm sure my little ginger was killed by a 100% dry diet, years before I knew any better. It makes me very sad and angry to think of it.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

ankhie was a go cat lover until i came here , i fed him wet and raw as well but given the choice he would have eaten dry all day long if allowed , i reduced and reduced and then just stopped completely big greedy guts didnt care he still ate whatever was in his bowl , oh and the odd house mouse brave enough to enter,

with raw its important not to feed to much bone you have to balance it correctly with the amount of meat on the bone and not too much offal each week as well , muscle meats have the taurine in , but if you are feeding along side wet they are going to get taurine from there as well , 

i got a medium sized bag of dry Harringtons complete chicken and rice , 2kg for £5.75 from local grocer/pet store, seems very healthy no soya/beef/grain/colours ect but i only feed a very small amount along side wet/raw and not every day but i have noticed bigger softer paler smellier poos esp from susie who has now earned a new nickname of "poopaws" :lol:
anyone else feed Harringtons ? im thinking the rice is the culprit ?

also the incidence of recall in alot of well known dry food is alarming , due to toxins or bacteria , 
also very important if feeding dry , you really must keep in a container with a tight fitting lid as dust mites love it and thy cause issues like allergies and tummy upsets /respiratory ailments 

i am happy to use dry as a hand fed treat or in a snack ball and as a convenience food when im running low ,

but you know its hard to convert and im not sure you can do it if you are going to always feed just a little dry , you have to take it away completely but only do this when you have ample varieties of wet and raw to entice and convert , goats milk or kitten milk is good for making sure their tummy does go for too long without as this can be dangerous . 

they say the best way to get a cat to eat something is to tell him think he has stolen it :lol:


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I think many of us have become wet or raw feeders after years of happily feeding dry. We normally make the change because of some or other health issue which occurs with our cats ie we have learnt from our mistakes.
I do think people need to be careful about how they give advice and watch that they do not come across as overly critical of those who choose a dry diet for whatever reason.


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

moggiemum said:


> ankhie was a go cat lover until i came here , i fed him wet and raw as well but given the choice he would have eaten dry all day long if allowed , i reduced and reduced and then just stopped completely big greedy guts didnt care he still ate whatever was in his bowl , oh and the odd house mouse brave enough to enter,
> 
> with raw its important not to feed to much bone you have to balance it correctly with the amount of meat on the bone and not too much offal each week as well , muscle meats have the taurine in , but if you are feeding along side wet they are going to get taurine from there as well ,
> 
> ...


I wasn't sure if this was for my benefit?


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

oh nooooooooooo absolutly not :sad:, i even gave moggiebaby rep for her lovely reply to you , so sorry i would always say if my post was in relation to anothers , just some useful advise i hope for the op


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

Ok thanks, I wasn't sure


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Julie100uk said:


> You could turn this comment on its head and say that those who feed raw....
> 
> I've no wish to cause trouble but those if us who feed dry are constantly made to feel like we're killing our cats. My cats won't eat much wet and it does bother me but I've tried so many types of wet. I don't usually enter these discussions but thought I'd provide an alternative view.
> 
> EDIT: APOLOGIES RO CHARITY, I WAS ON MY PHONE AND MEANT TO LINK TO OP.


This is the point I think.

People do get sick of the evangelical nature of the food debate 

It's no different in the Dog Section


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm another "converted to wet and raw" slave.

My previous cat Thomas would only eat Whiskars sachets and go cat dried  when he died of cancer at 10 and I decided my heart and home needed another cat I started researching about food, as I was convinced that's why Thomas has died so young.

I have managed to convert some other cat owners along the way. However, one friend is insistent that she must feed one of her cats Royal Canine Kidney dried feed as he has had crystals. I have told her that the crystals was probably down to the dried Iams he had before, but she won't hear of it.... She's following her vets advise. And yep, I'm just a cat slave, I'm not a vet.

We can't convert them all, but we can die trying :lol:


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

quote - julie100uk; Ok thanks, I wasn't sure
end quote ;


thats ok , 

i impressed myself with my memory recall with that post :lol: 

i did just want to ask about the Harringtons dry complete with rice but i think it got lost in the ever so large post


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

No one who feeds dry should be ever feel criticised for doing so. The propaganda in favour of wet isn't meant to be critical, just informative and helpful. I feel very uneasy broaching the subject of dry food with other cat people I know personally for fear that even a bit of well-meaning advice will cause offence. It's much easier to shout about it on the internet.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> People do get sick of the evangelical nature of the food debate


But there's no debate. No one is proposing that dry is better than wet, only that for some people it's unavoidable.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> But there's no debate. No one is proposing that dry is better than wet, only that for some people it's unavoidable.


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## Kelly1978 (Aug 4, 2013)

Can I just make it clear that I would never judge anyone on what they feed their cat, my frustration was purely on the incorrect advice that vets are giving to cat owners about the benefits of dry food over anything else and the fact that because this information is coming from vets cat owners are thinking their cats are having a safe healthy diet. It was more about misinformation rather than judging anyone  both Bob and Marley are back from the vets now, safe and well and have a very relieved and happy owner!!


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

Kelly1978 said:


> Can I just make it clear that I would never judge anyone on what they feed their cat, my frustration was purely on the incorrect advice that vets are giving to cat owners about the benefits of dry food over anything else and the fact that because this information is coming from vets cat owners are thinking their cats are having a safe healthy diet. It was more about misinformation rather than judging anyone  both Bob and Marley are back from the vets now, safe and well and have a very relieved and happy owner!!


oh dear i had totally forgotten you were waiting to pick your furries up, so sorry , back home safe and sound :thumbsup:


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Lurcherlad are you going to propose a valid reason why a dry diet is healthier than a wet diet? I'd be genuinely interested. Seriously, we'd all learn something very important and my guilty conscience would be assuaged some.

Otherwise, no debate.


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

Kelly1978 said:


> Can I just make it clear that I would never judge anyone on what they feed their cat, my frustration was purely on the incorrect advice that vets are giving to cat owners about the benefits of dry food over anything else and the fact that because this information is coming from vets cat owners are thinking their cats are having a safe healthy diet. It was more about misinformation rather than judging anyone  both Bob and Marley are back from the vets now, safe and well and have a very relieved and happy owner!!


Kelly, I'm sorry but your opening comment didn't come across like that. You said you wanted to rant about how defensive cat owners are who feed their cats dry food. I'm sorry but it seems pretty clear to me.

But either way I'm am pretty sick at all the you must feed wet/raw comments although I'm sure that most of them are meant well.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> Lurcherlad are you going to propose a valid reason why a dry diet is healthier than a wet diet? I'd be genuinely interested. Seriously, we'd all learn something very important and my guilty conscience would be assuaged some.
> 
> Otherwise, no debate.


Actually, no. I don't remember implying that there was. That wasn't the intent of my post. It was simply agreeing with someone's point about how people who do feed dry are made to feel they are killing their cat 

Change the word Debate for Subject in my post if that makes better sense.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

That it does. 'Debate' indicates for me anyway that there are two contrasting and arguable opinions. I don't believe there are. No biggie, maybe it's pedantic... but I would really like to hear if anyone out there seriously proposes dry over wet, besides the crazy nutty vets of course. ut:


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Julie100uk said:


> You could turn this comment on its head and say that those who feed raw....
> 
> I've no wish to cause trouble but those if us who feed dry are constantly made to feel like we're killing our cats. My cats won't eat much wet and it does bother me *but I've tried so many types of wet.* I don't usually enter these discussions but thought I'd provide an alternative view.
> 
> EDIT: APOLOGIES RO CHARITY, I WAS ON MY PHONE AND MEANT TO LINK TO OP.


It's not just about "trying different types". To transition kibble addicts, you have to go into it with the attitude that this is how it's going to be. You don't "try". You do. No matter how long it takes.

It took one of my cats months and months to recognize raw food as food. I never gave up. She now eats raw with great enjoyment, yummy noises and all. It's the same thing from going from dry to wet. You don't stop working at it until it's done.

Any kibble addict can be converted to wet food. Some take a lot of effort, time and patience, but any cat can be converted. It takes work and creativity sometimes, but it is well worth it.

Keep in mind that dry food is sprayed with flavor enhancers to make the cats eat it, because it is a food that is completely against their biological nature to eat. That's what they become addicted to.

First step: *stop free feeding*. Feed on a schedule. Once the schedule feeding is set, then start the transitioning work.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

I stopped feeding dry years ago after my old boy had UTI's and was blocked twice  I do advise people against feeding dry when I can, by telling them about that and that the cost of "unblocking" is nearer to £400 now than the £200 I paid - and my cat needed it twice. 

I remember telling a friend at that time not to feed dry to her kitten but she carried on feeding Iams and I saw her recently and her cat now has diabetes - she said the vet told her the dry caused it.

I do put grain free dry in their treat ball and they'll have some when I go on holiday and the cat sitter is coming in, but no way would I feed it for longer.

My vet is one who likes dry  He says wet is over 80% water so a waste of money. When I said cats didn't need the wheat/grains they loaded dry with and explained about my old cat being blocked twice because of dry he didn't really have an answer .... hopefully I'll get him to re-think. I'm working on it anyway.


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

lorilu said:


> It's not just about "trying different types". To transition kibble addicts, you have to go into it with the attitude that this is how it's going to be. You don't "try". You do. No matter how long it takes.
> 
> It took one of my cats months and months to recognize raw food as food. I never gave up. She now eats raw with great enjoyment, yummy noises and all. It's the same thing from going from dry to wet. You don't stop working at it until it's done.
> 
> ...


You just can't help yourself can you? I am quite capable of looking after my cats and feeding them, I have had cats for years. Your advice is neither wanted nor appreciated. You have no idea what patience I have and what I have tried and I don't have to explain myself.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Originally Posted by lorilu View Post 
It's not just about "trying different types". To transition kibble addicts, you have to go into it with the attitude that this is how it's going to be.* You don't "try". You do. No matter how long it takes.*

It took one of my cats months and months to recognize raw food as food. I never gave up. She now eats raw with great enjoyment, yummy noises and all. It's the same thing from going from dry to wet. *You don't stop working at it until it's done.*

*Any kibble addict can be converted to wet food. Some take a lot of effort, time and patience, but any cat can be converted. It takes work and creativity sometimes*, but it is well worth it.

Keep in mind that dry food is sprayed with flavor enhancers to make the cats eat it, because it is a food that is completely against their biological nature to eat. That's what they become addicted to.

First step: stop free feeding. Feed on a schedule. Once the schedule feeding is set, then start the transitioning work.



Julie100uk said:


> You just can't help yourself can you? I am quite capable of looking after my cats and feeding them, I have had cats for years. Your advice is neither wanted nor appreciated. You have no idea what patience I have and what I have tried and I don't have to explain myself.


OP - This is why dry feeders get defensive.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I haven't read all the replies but just wanted to add my own personal "experience". One of my cats LOVES dry food (Susie) and she prefers it over wet food but my other cats love wet so I have both types out all the time and they do from time to time switch and swap but that's fine by me. As long as they are happy, healthy and have loads of vitality and energy and have shiny coats and bright eyes and healthy teeth and no other health problems its fine by me.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> *I think many of us have become wet or raw feeders after years of happily feeding dry. *We normally make the change because of some or other health issue which occurs with our cats ie we have learnt from our mistakes.
> I do think people need to be careful about how they give advice and watch that they do not come across as overly critical of those who choose a dry diet for whatever reason.


Now there's the irony - I never dry fed until I moved to Moggy Towers and a neighbour recommended Royal Canin dry. Until that point, I'd always fed tins. Ok, [email protected] tins as it turns out - Felix - but still wet food. As she'd had loads of cats, & used to show her dogs, I thought she must know better so took her advice. Thankfully, after only a few months on here, I saw the light (and RC changed their recipe so my cats stopped eating it!) and moved back to wet but this time better quality from Zooplus. I was very lucky because the Posse all took to it straight away with no issues despite being fed the dry for about 8 years.


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## raverminx (Dec 19, 2011)

all cats are different though, and if adopt an older cat whos used to free feeding and dry food, then its bloody hard to get them to eat wet and at a certain time.
trust me, id love my cats to have certain meal times and have wet. i adopted my oldest when she was 6 and she had lived on free feeding and dry. ive tried so many times to get her to eat at certain times and have wet but shes stubborn and refuses point blank to eat at all. 

the new fluff ball will eat at certain times now and i feed her upstairs so she doesnt eat the other food. She is only 9 months so theres hope that she might take to wet food but at the moment she isnt interested.

oh and for the last x amount of years ive been using go cats indoor dry food  yes i know, but i didnt know any better. they are both on alpaws dry food which is a LOT better than nothing.

remember, we dont own the cat, they own us lol!! im not going to give up, but for the moment they will carry on having dry until they have got used to each other and not so stressed (the little one has only been here less than a week)

most of us know that wet quality food is better, but some people, like myself have no choice at the moment but to use dry. id rather my cats eat than starve!


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

It was years ago when I had cats I had to transition over and I initially started feeding a pouch of Gourmet each at teatime. They loved it and saw it as a treat so it went well for me. Not that I feed Gourmet nowadays (one of mine is allergic to grains) but it worked back then!

If I don't give Ben what he wants now (usually as much Miamor as he can eat) he makes my life sheer hell  And I'm not exaggerating, the vet was here once when he nipped me because I wouldn't give him what he wanted, so he saw it for himself, and Ben's an NFC so I ended up with a bruise on my arm. And he wasn't hungry, he had Butchers down but wanted more Miamor.

That stems from getting out of the usual feeding routine when he was ill - he doesn't want to go back to it now. So I do sympathise with anyone trying to change food habits - I know it is far from easy.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

My old cats Amber and Buster (RIP :001_wub::001_wub were fed a purely dry diet most of their lives under the vet's recommendation. If the vet says do such and such because its better for the cat you do tend to follow it (well we did back then). Buster had gingivitis that we were told was caused by not enough dry food to get rid of the tartar that formed on his teeth. We were directed to some very expensive Science Plan dry cat food for the rest of their lives without complaint. They lived to healthy old ages 15 and 16. So being fed on a solely dry diet isn't all that bad.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Just want to wave my hand and say: "Anti-dry-food-for-cats vet here."


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Jannor said:


> My vet is one who likes dry  *He says wet is over 80% water so a waste of money.*


See that makes me mad. :incazzato:

HOW DOES HE NOT KNOW??!??

He's a qualified VET!! fer crying out loud!!!

Cats _need moisture in their food_. The 80% water content of wet food is a VITAL ingredient - and worth every single gosh darned penny you pay for it.

Holy smokes. :mad2:

Maybe we should start a campaign.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

CoCoTrio said:


> Maybe we should start a campaign.


Good luck. :lol:


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

We don't ever go to the vet's (touch wood) but I'm sort of tempted to go along just to see what sort of answer I'd get if I asked for a diet recommendation. The one and only time we went there for a worming prescription diet wasn't mentioned at all despite the fact that we were obviously ripe for any and all advice having just taken on the wee fellow. That's probably a bad sign.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

My vet is pro-wet and raw. I haven't asked about dry so I don't know but he does link their diet to their condition. 

I don't feed to a schedule, but on demand. I don't pick the food up if it isn't finished on time, and I managed to transition a dry food addict to wet in a month. You have to pick your tactics for the cat(s) you have and the person that you are. 

My ex-addict doesn't do snap decisions and he needs to ponder things first. He is still pondering raw. In my three cat household, they aren't all hungry at the same time, and they don't necessarily want to eat together all the time. It suits us.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Julie100uk said:


> You just can't help yourself can you? I am quite capable of looking after my cats and feeding them, I have had cats for years. Your advice is neither wanted nor appreciated. You have no idea what patience I have and what I have tried and I don't have to explain myself.


No, I really can't, and I'm not going to apologize for it. I feel that strongly about this, that I want everyone to see what a difference a more appropriate diet can make for their cats.

And, more importantly, I want every cat to have the benefits of a wet diet.

Once you make the switch, and your cats have been on a wet diet for a few months, once you see the difference, then you will understand.

I'm sorry my post sounded a bit off. But honestly, it really can be done, and people who have done it can help you. There are so many tricks that can be pulled over on kibble addicts. It can be done, even if it takes months, it doesn't matter, what matters is not giving up.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Jannor said:


> <snip>
> My vet is one who likes dry  *He says wet is over 80% water so a waste of money. * When I said cats didn't need the wheat/grains they loaded dry with and explained about my old cat being blocked twice because of dry he didn't really have an answer .... hopefully I'll get him to re-think. I'm working on it anyway.


May the universe give me strength. The 78% water is the main reason a cat needs wet food. It's such a basic thing to know about feline nutrition, it causes me deep despair to hear of vets staying things like this.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Iheartcats said:


> My old cats Amber and Buster (RIP :001_wub::001_wub were fed a purely dry diet most of their lives under the vet's recommendation. If the vet says do such and such because its better for the cat you do tend to follow it (well we did back then). Buster had gingivitis that* we were told was caused by not enough dry food to get rid of the tartar that formed on his teeth.* .


Please understand that this is pure fallacy invented by pet food manufacturers and taught to vets by those same pet food companies during the vet's "nutrition" classes.

Dry food does not clean teeth. Corn chips do not clean human teeth and dry kibble (which is about equivalent to corn chips, many of them) does not clean cat teeth.

Wet food does not rot teeth. Dental health is largely genetic, but wet food may have a slight edge on dental health simply because dry food is so heavy with carbs. Those carb laden crumbs stick to teeth, they are basically sugar. So those crumbs stick to the teeth, between the teeth and under the gumline, growing plaque which turns to tartar which leads to gingivitis and other dental disease.

Wet food, being wet, tends to not stick as much.

The ONLY diet that "cleans" feline teeth is Prey Model Raw (or whole prey raw)



> We were directed to some very expensive Science Plan dry cat food for the rest of their lives without complaint. They lived to healthy old ages 15 and 16. So being fed on a solely dry diet isn't all that bad


But the thing is, cats can appear "fine" even when they are not. Cats instinctively hide discomfort, and even serious illness. You'd never know that your cats may have had stomach aches, or felt lousy from chronic dehydration, or had burning when they pee from too concentrated urine, all their 15 years, because those are the kinds of things a cat will not show.

What happens is, when the cats are changed to a wet diet, the difference in them, after a period of months, is usually quite major. Cats that always seemed fine become so much better than fine, people are really stunned.

It really does make that much difference.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Julie100uk said:


> Kelly, I'm sorry but your opening comment didn't come across like that. You said you wanted to rant about how defensive cat owners are who feed their cats dry food. I'm sorry but it seems pretty clear to me.
> 
> But either way I'm am pretty sick at all the you must feed wet/raw comments although I'm sure that most of them are meant well.


I guess the simplest solution to that is to not read any threads that are about this debate. Then you don't have to feel sick of anything or feel persecuted or otherwise bothered. You know what you don't want to read, so just don't. :thumbsup:


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## Nitas mum (Jan 17, 2013)

Just to narrow things down, what would be your best suggestions for:

Dry food (brand and specific type)
Wet food (brand and specific type)
Raw food (what is best)

All the above posts have got me in a spin! Both of mine like dry (currently Royal Canin hypersensitivity - trying it for a couple of months to try to see if it helps settle Simba's loose stools as we are struggling to find out what's causing it). I've always fed wet a few times a week as well, although not at the moment as they don't do it for hypersensitivity. 

I don't buy food from the vets, I buy it online, so don't feel I'm being pressured by the vet. However, the majority of the above posts now make me feel worried that I'm not doing the right thing - I need to take into account Simba's autoimmune issues etc. 

I am not asking for a diagnosis, just some pointers - as am now concerned that everything I have been trying is wrong!


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

I once enquired on another site about raw feeding and was jumped on by vets and vet nurses. I sort of slinked out of there never to be seen again.

2 of mine love raw food they get occasional chicken wings and titbits as I cut up the families meat, 1 will eat a bit but I think hes too lazy to chew to be honest, 2 wont touch it at all, not tried my recent rescues yet.

I feed a mixture of wet and dry, all will eat dry but one wont touch any wet food at all, no fresh, raw or cooked meat, no wet cat food and only one flavour of one brand of dry food. He was hand reared and refused to wean until he was 16 weeks old! And yes, I tried everything. Unfortunately he is also the one that's prone to cystitis when stressed so I am very tuned in to his toilet habits to catch it early.

I'd still be interested in hearing about raw feeding if anyone has any info.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Nitas mum said:


> Just to narrow things down, what would be your best suggestions for:
> 
> Dry food (brand and specific type)
> Wet food (brand and specific type)
> ...


The best thing I can tell you is to learn to read the labels. Read the label on the bag of RC. What's in it? Corn? Wheat? Any meat at all? Remember that meat, even listed as the first ingredient in dry food doesn't mean much. The ingredients are listed in order of weight, but the weight is before processing. What this means is, once the food is processed, and all the moisture is taken from that chicken, it drops much lower on the ingredient list, down below all those ingredients that start out dry to begin with.

Corn is very bad for cats. Just awful. Indigestible. And it is in so many many dry cat foods. And don't be fool\ed by "maize". Maize is corn.

Cats are obligate carnivores. What this means is they are designed by nature to eat and thrive on meat and the other parts of prey animals. They are also designed to get their moisture from their food. They do not have a high thirst drive, and do not drink enough water on a dry diet to counteract the dehydrating effects of that dry diet.

This is why there is such a high incidence now of urinary tract disease in cats. And so vets invented a very expensive operation called Perineal Urethrostomy (removal of the male cat's penis, basically) to counteract these diseases.

Dry food I will not advise on because I do not believe cats should be fed dry.

Canned food: look for identified meat as the main ingredients (for example look for "chicken" or "lamb" instead of "poultry meal" or "meat meal". )

Try to avoid fruits and veggies and especially, grains. Cats just poop all that stuff back out again. It's filler, added to make the numbers add up right on the label. Potatoes and other starches are also to be avoided. Never buy anything with "sugar" or "syrup" (a way of disguising the use of sugar).

Avoid cellulose (sawdust), carrageenan and xanthan, especially for cats with any sort of digestive or intestinal or other gastric trouble.

Pate formulas are, in general, better than chunks in gravy types because they are usually lower in carbohydrates. Gravy needs thickeners, and that usually means high carbs. Pates are also more often palatable to kibble addicts than other kinds.

The lower the carbohydrate percentage the better. There is a handy calculator available for figuring out carbs, it seems fairly accurate.

ScheyderWeb Cat Food Nutrition Calculator

Remember that you can't make comparisons between wet and dry on the "guaranteed analysis" until both foods have been converted to a "Dry Matter Basis". This means removing the moisture from the equation of both foods, to compare things like protein, fat and so on. There is a formula for that, I can explain it if you want.

I don't know what commercial raw diets are available in the UK. Again I say avoid foods that seem overly fruit and vegetable heavy, and there should never be grains in raw food.

Raw can also be prepared at home, fed in chunks (meat/organ/bone) or preparing a recipe using a grinder. Feeding a home made raw diet takes some research, learning and knowledge, because balancing is very important. (but the results are soo worth it!)

Adding some raw meat to a cat's diet, just as a supplement or snack,(not worrying about balancing), is fine as long as it is kept to less than 15% of the cat's total diet.


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

lorilu said:


> No, I really can't, and I'm not going to apologize for it. I feel that strongly about this, that I want everyone to see what a difference a more appropriate diet can make for their cats.
> 
> And, more importantly, I want every cat to have the benefits of a wet diet.
> 
> ...


All you have done is switched me off to the idea, along with many others I suspect. Ramming it down people's throats isn't the way to go.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Brilliant LL, would rep you if I was allowed to.

:thumbsup:

NM there's no absolute best choices and everyone will have different preferences but a personal recommendation if it might help would be:



Nitas mum said:


> Just to narrow things down, what would be your best suggestions for:
> 
> Dry food (brand and specific type)
> 
> ...


Just a personal view, but hope this helps. Good cat food is more expensive than poor cat food, naturally, but it's got to be worth it if you can manage. The real skill is DIY fresh raw - that can be inexpensive and the best of all - but needs a lot of learning and care to get it right, as LL says.

Feeding a good variety of food types and brands and flavours helps to ensure that all the bases are covered and you don't have all your eggs in one basket.  Mixed foods and mixed metaphors.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Julie100uk said:


> All you have done is switched me off to the idea, along with many others I suspect. Ramming it down people's throats isn't the way to go.


I think it's worth distinguishing between the messenger and the message, and not let one issue cloud the other. If that makes sense.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Julie100uk said:


> All you have done is switched me off to the idea, along with many others I suspect. Ramming it down people's throats isn't the way to go.


Determining your pet's diet based on the style of a strangers prose seems an odd thing to do.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Nitas mum said:


> Just to narrow things down, what would be your best suggestions for:
> 
> Dry food (brand and specific type)
> Wet food (brand and specific type)
> ...


I'd second the idea to try happykittycompany. Granatapet seems to be one of the best foods around. Ropocat offer single protein options including lamb, rabbit etc. The chicken flavour Omnomnom is also single protein. There should be enough variety in that lot to find some foods that don't cause a reaction if you approach it systematically.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Determining your pet's diet based on the style of a strangers prose seems an odd thing to do


I'd imagine it's the most common reason people take any notice one way or the other no matter what the subject. I find an overly zealous approach turns me off in an instant, especially since there's no way of knowing on the internet if the poster has any real experience or is simply passing on what they perceive to be current wisdom.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> I'd imagine it's the most common reason people take any notice one way or the other no matter what the subject. I find an overly zealous approach turns me off in an instant, especially since there's no way of knowing on the internet if the poster has any real experience or is simply passing on what they perceive to be current wisdom.


I agree that I hate to be preached at and an over zealous approach is really annoying. But, that's not to say that it shouldn't then trigger you to go and do your own research. Even if it's just so you can argue back.

Just because I find somebody annoying on a forum doesn't mean that my annoyance should be to the potential detriment of my pet.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Havoc makes a good point - if you really want to influence someone on the internet it's not enough to give an unqualified uncorroborated opinion, especially a passionate or zealous one. What's needed is links to published peer-reviewed studies and reports by qualified experts, and other reasonably hard evidence to support the proposal. I think this forum is generally excellent at providing such evidence. I've found it very useful and interesting, so big thanks to all those who take the trouble, you know who you are.


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## RosieP (Jan 21, 2014)

Remember that a vet has to make a living. To supplement treatment fees most vets provide 'add - on' services to their customers. Thus the appearance of pet food in the waiting room and pet food posters on the walls. Vets are visited, regularly, by representatives from the big pet food companies, offering attractive point of sale display stands, sale or return pet food, advertising materials - anything to achieve sales and meet the rep's target. Packets of dry food are less likely to become damaged during the pre-sale process, plus they are easier/lighter to handle than cans of wet food.
A hefty commission is paid to the practice on any sales plus promotions for the (sales)staff of free televisions, computer lap tops etc. are offered as incentives. 
From a business perspective this is a 'no brainer' for the practice manager. Free profit. No risk. - and the food must be okay, mustn't it?
I have heard that a vet will receive only one day's training in nutrition before qualifying, (there's no point in preventing illness). 
Being truly cynical, there's no profit to be made from an animal that is healthy and robust until the day it dies of old age. 
Booster jabs and flea treatments are just an annual reason to get an animal on the table and check it over for potential profitable treatment.
Animals should be fed a varied diet, well balanced and nutritious. Cats, in particular, need fluid in their food as they do not have a strong thirst drive.
Imagine living on ginger biscuits and digestives for the rest of your life.:sad:


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

RosieP said:


> Remember that a vet has to make a living. To supplement treatment fees most vets provide 'add - on' services to their customers. Thus the appearance of pet food in the waiting room and pet food posters on the walls. Vets are visited, regularly, by representatives from the big pet food companies, offering attractive point of sale display stands, sale or return pet food, advertising materials - anything to achieve sales and meet the rep's target. Packets of dry food are less likely to become damaged during the pre-sale process, plus they are easier/lighter to handle than cans of wet food.
> A hefty commission is paid to the practice on any sales plus promotions for the (sales)staff of free televisions, computer lap tops etc. are offered as incentives.
> From a business perspective this is a 'no brainer' for the practice manager. Free profit. No risk. - and the food must be okay, mustn't it?
> I have heard that a vet will receive only one day's training in nutrition before qualifying, (there's no point in preventing illness).
> ...


But there are, of course, exceptions.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

Of course there are exceptions  Mine actually told me to buy it off the internet because it was cheaper when Ben had to have the RC Gastro Intestinal.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

RosieP said:


> Remember that a vet has to make a living. To supplement treatment fees most vets provide 'add - on' services to their customers. Thus the appearance of pet food in the waiting room and pet food posters on the walls. Vets are visited, regularly, by representatives from the big pet food companies, offering attractive point of sale display stands, sale or return pet food, advertising materials - anything to achieve sales and meet the rep's target. Packets of dry food are less likely to become damaged during the pre-sale process, plus they are easier/lighter to handle than cans of wet food.
> A hefty commission is paid to the practice on any sales plus promotions for the (sales)staff of free televisions, computer lap tops etc. are offered as incentives.
> From a business perspective this is a 'no brainer' for the practice manager. Free profit. No risk. - and the food must be okay, mustn't it?
> I have heard that a vet will receive only one day's training in nutrition before qualifying, (there's no point in preventing illness).
> ...


Oh yeah. The only thing you've missed out is the negative influence of the insurance industry on veterinary services.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Julie100uk said:


> All you have done is switched me off to the idea, along with many others I suspect. Ramming it down people's throats isn't the way to go.


That's too bad. Seems like you'd care more about your cats' well being and health than that. I'm not shoving anything, I am expressing an opinion and offering support in anyone's efforts to make the transition. If only people could put aside their defensiveness think about what is being said here, in this thread.



havoc said:


> I'd imagine it's the most common reason people take any notice one way or the other no matter what the subject. I find an overly zealous approach turns me off in an instant, especially since there's no way of knowing on the internet if the poster has any real experience or is simply passing on what they perceive to be current wisdom.


My experience started in 1986 when I had a male cat block and the vet I was using then told me adamantly and firmly that I must never feed that particular cat anything but canned food, ever, and really I should feed the female cat canned also. He explained that this is because cats need moisture coming from their food to keep them properly hydrated.

It made sense to me, and my cats were canned fed all along until I adopted a cat from the shelter in 2005 who had been on a dry diet and came to me with urinary tract problems in the form of repeat bacterial infections and struvite crystals. The vet I was using said for her health and safety she had to be on the (disgusting stuff) Hill's c/d. I balked at dry food full of corn but my girl wouldn't eat the canned c/d and I was frightened enough from her repeat illnesses to keep her on it...for 6 years. The other cats continued to eat a canned diet.

In the mean time the mass melanine poisoning recall happened and I began researching the safety of pet food and ingredients, something I had not given much thought to before. During my research I became more and more convinced that I had to get my 'struvite kitty' off that horrible dry food. It was controlling her urinary tract disease, but at what cost? By 2010 the regurgitation a daily thing with her.

Long story shortened, she's been on one canned (all she can tolerate) and half (all organic, for her) raw for over 2 years now. But the damage is done, her digestion will never completely recover from the detriments of 6 years on that awful dry food. Incidentally it took a long time to find a canned food she could keep down, and I learned a lot more about what ingredients to avoid in the the interim.

A lot of people who feed dry think that vomiting, regurgitation specifically, is "normal" for a cat. It is NOT normal.



CoCoTrio said:


> Havoc makes a good point - if you really want to influence someone on the internet it's not enough to give an unqualified uncorroborated opinion, especially a passionate or zealous one. What's needed is links to published peer-reviewed studies and reports by qualified experts, and other reasonably hard evidence to support the proposal. I think this forum is generally excellent at providing such evidence. I've found it very useful and interesting, so big thanks to all those who take the trouble, you know who you are.


The bottom line is, cats are obligate carnivores. There are no links or special degrees needed to understand that. It is a simple fact. And an obligate carnivore cannot thrive, or feel his best, on a diet of dry cereal.

But if anyone wants a link to get started in understanding why a wet diet is so important this is a very good one:

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health. Dr Lisa Pierson has made it her life's work to educate people on feline nutrition.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

lorilu said:


> Once you make the switch, and your cats have been on a wet diet for a few months, once you see the difference, then you will understand.


What differences?

Just curious as I can't see any particular differences in either of mine now they eat mostly wet

I am a fan of wet food (probably like many having unfortunately had one of the prone to kidney problem / neutered male cats), and am trying to get mine to eat more wet, but I do also feed a bit of dry for a variety of reasons and if that's what people want to do - having done their own research and being happy it's best for the pet - then that's absolutely their right & I don't think trying to ram views down peoples throats achieves a lot

That comment isn't directed at anyone in particular, it's from having seen the issue crop up many times both here & on the dog section



Julie100uk said:


> All you have done is switched me off to the idea, along with many others I suspect. Ramming it down people's throats isn't the way to go.





havoc said:


> I'd imagine it's the most common reason people take any notice one way or the other no matter what the subject. I find an overly zealous approach turns me off in an instant, especially since there's no way of knowing on the internet if the poster has any real experience or is simply passing on what they perceive to be current wisdom.


Totally agree - I've had loads of issues finding a decent food for Maisie that she can tolerate (she has colitis) and have had many threads about it and you often say things like 'has anyone tried xxx' and you get a barrage of 'you must feed raw' responses which a) isn't what I asked about b) I have researched but wouldn't be possible with Maisie's issues - why can't others accept that raw / wet doesn't work for everyone, that people might actually have done their own research and want / need opinions on a food and just show a little respect for others views


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

It's ironic given the thread title how defensive the majority of posts in this thread are 

bottom line for me - do your research, decide what works best for your cat and don't worry what everyone else thinks.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

lorilu said:


> The bottom line is, cats are obligate carnivores. There are no links or special degrees needed to understand that. It is a simple fact.


Right on, though years and years ago I thought that dried meat would fit the carnivore thing quite well. Plus a bit of cereal to bind it or bulk it or whatever. A fancy name on the packet, a TV ad or two. A vet's recommendation even. Seemed fine to me then: dried meat cat food for the obligate carnivore. Why pay for water and lug it home in cans when you can get it out of the tap?! Kitty can always have a little drink from a saucer.  How easily I was misinformed.

It's not the obligate carnivore thing, it's the need for moisture in the food that the kibble manufacturers try to obscure. Thank goodness for the internet.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Better coat, brighter eyes, longer whiskers, less regurgitation, more peeing, healthier bowel movements, more energy,fewer hairball issues, over all better behavior are some of the things people will notice.

People mention raw feeding when you say you have a cat with x y or z because they (the ones 'pushing' raw) know that raw can greatly improve, if not cure, cats with certain health problems.

This is because raw diets typically don't contain a lot of the things in commercial cats foods that create these problems in the first place. A raw diet, especially home made, where you control everything they eat, doesn't contain all those harmful gums (such as carrageenan and xanthan) or anything artificial that is harmful (including menadione sodium bisulfate), sodium nitrates and sodium nitrites..grains....well you see what I mean.

People who "push" raw do it because they've seen the (sometimes miraculous) improvements in their ill cats when fed raw. 

But yeah, when you don't want to think about raw it can be annoying, I used to feel the same way (until I caved and turned to raw in desperation over two of my cats, and then I discovered why people are so passionate about raw feeding)

But the passion extends to canned instead of dry at least for me. I know raw isn't for everyone and it is a ton of work, don't let anyone tell you different, hahaha!

I have friends whom I nagged to put their obese cat on a canned diet, but they never would and she died of a heart attack when she was not quite 12 years old. They also have a male cat who at the time was thin and scraggly. The next time I was at their house after the female died I saw a stack of canned cat food on the shelf and their other cat, the young male, enjoying a dish of canned. I didn't say anything, but over the months noticed him become become sleek and filled out.

Now every time I go there the wife says "Doesn't he look good?" "look how filled out he is!" And then she expounds on the benefits of canned food as if she invented it, LOL. I don't bother to remind them that I had been suggesting it for years. I'm just happy to see the boy looking and feeling so well.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> It's appalling to think that vets really do know that what they're advising is harmful. I find that amazing and horrifying. But they can't really all be that ignorant or brainwashed can they??!
> 
> I mean it's their professional responsibility to know what's best for animals - and cats are the most popular of all pets - and the internet is FULL of warnings about the dangers of dry food, and warnings from very well-qualified people.
> 
> I think if a vet advised me that dry was better than wet I'd have to just look them right in the eye and ask "you don't really _honestly_ believe that do you?" If they said yes I'd have to ask for the reasons for that belief, ie the hard evidence. If none was available it would seem reasonable to tell them "thanks, but I don't want to deal with you anymore on account of I think you're incompetent and/or corrupt."


You know I had this conversation with my vet. He told me I have to weigh up the risks....eating dry and having good clean teeth but having issues with Tipsys weight or eating wet and having rotten teeth :confused1:...This guy is always going on about me having to feed my cats dry everytime I see him..Im not a confrontational person and get tongue tied around him and he makes me feel an idiot everytime I try to challenge him regarding this issue so next time I go Im making sure I see a different vet.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> Right on, though years and years ago I thought that dried meat would fit the carnivore thing quite well. Plus a bit of cereal to bind it or bulk it or whatever. A fancy name on the packet, a TV ad or two. A vet's recommendation even. Seemed fine to me then: dried meat cat food for the obligate carnivore. Why pay for water and lug it home in cans when you can get it out of the tap?! Kitty can always have a little drink from a saucer.  How easily I was misinformed.
> 
> It's not the obligate carnivore thing, it's the need for moisture in the food that the kibble manufacturers try to obscure. Thank goodness for the internet.


Huh. I never thought of it that way. I guess because back in 1986 I had a vet tell me cats needed to eat a wet diet because they needed moisture., That just made so much sense to me it stuck, forever.  Of course part of the reason it made such an impression was my terror over the pain my blocked male cat was suffering.

I struggle every day with feelings of...guilt..for the years my 'struvite kitty' was on that dry c/d food. Her digestion is shot to heck, her motility is ruined, she will never be completely recovered from the damage that food has done. I no longer use the vet who insisted she had to eat that food, (but for other reasons) but it makes no difference anyway, vets all over the world are pushing that crap on trusting unsuspecting people.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Kyria said:


> You know I had this conversation with my vet. He told me I have to weigh up the risks....eating dry and having good clean teeth but having issues with Tipsys weight or eating wet and having rotten teeth :confused1:...This guy is always going on about me having to feed my cats dry everytime I see him..Im not a confrontational person and get tongue tied around him and he makes me feel an idiot everytime I try to challenge him regarding this issue so next time I go Im making sure I see a different vet.


Maybe you could print out a few of the really good articles and drop them in to him, for his perusal, as a professional, just to help him along as it were. He might appreciate that he's the idiot, not you. x


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

My bottom line is: I recommend a wet diet with the highest meat/protein content possible. For those who really want to feed dry food, I suggest something grain-free with a high meat content such as Orijen or Applaws.

If people want to feed raw then that's awesome, but it's not for everyone so I don't tend to 'push' raw.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health. Dr Lisa Pierson has made it her life's work to educate people on feline nutrition. 

I just want to second reading this, its very well written, easy to read and understand and very informative.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

clearing out my old emails so mind numbingly boring until ........... found this ,

simple , great, easy very nutritious , and i never knew about the benefit of add vinegar to the mix , 
very useful natural health remedy to have in cupboard for us humans is apple cider vinegar so i ll be trying this one for the animals ,
the addition of the vinegar in this case is only to assist in drawing out all the goodnees from the bones 

Bone Broth Is Excellent Nourishment for Older Pets


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

moggiemum said:


> clearing out my old emails so mind numbingly boring until ........... found this ,
> 
> simple , great, easy very nutritious , and i never knew about the benefit of add vinegar to the mix ,
> very useful natural health remedy to have in cupboard for us humans is apple cider vinegar so i ll be trying this one for the animals ,
> ...


I've been reading a lot about the bone broth too, and intend to make a batch up to keep in the house (freezer)

Just want to clarify that it is raw unprocessed apple cider vinegar that contains health benefits. The regular processed stuff will not provide any.

In the USA the brand is Bragg. Don't know what you might have Over There. 

I swear by my Bragg.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

hehe are you Bragging again  i will remember that , i havent bought any for ages now so cant remember , a friend of mine will be found quite often having a snack of whole cloves of raw garlic with a little bowl of dipping sauce of apple cider vinegar ,


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

moggiemum said:


> clearing out my old emails so mind numbingly boring until ........... found this ,
> 
> simple , great, easy very nutritious , and i never knew about the benefit of add vinegar to the mix ,
> very useful natural health remedy to have in cupboard for us humans is apple cider vinegar so i ll be trying this one for the animals ,
> ...


I made up a batch yesterday for my three and have just frozen it. I was thinking of doing a big batch once a month and giving it once a week as an added extra. Didn't put vinegar in mine nor did I boil it for anywhere near as long. My intention of it is really just extra fluid, any nutrients are an added bonus.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> I made up a batch yesterday for my three and have just frozen it. I was thinking of doing a big batch once a month and giving it once a week as an added extra. Didn't put vinegar in mine nor did I boil it for anywhere near as long. My intention of it is really just extra fluid, any nutrients are an added bonus.


But the nutrients are invaluable!
I have been making broth for years....well, we were brought up on it actually! I do cook it for a good long time, but nowhere near as long as the 'paleo' trenders dictate, and I have not as yet added vinegar to it as I worry that the smell/taste would put the cats off.


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## My5Kitties (Jan 19, 2014)

> In the USA the brand is Bragg. Don't know what you might have Over There.


Braggs is available in the UK. I use a drop of ACV in my cats food and they don't even notice...unlike a worming tablet.

Rachel.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Paddypaws said:


> But the nutrients are invaluable!
> I have been making broth for years....well, we were brought up on it actually! I do cook it for a good long time, but nowhere near as long as the 'paleo' trenders dictate, and I have not as yet added vinegar to it as I worry that the smell/taste would put the cats off.


I do add raw vinegar to my own stock, and cook the bones down for about 8 hours. This makes a nice aspic soup base, but of course because I use savories it wouldn't be appropriate for the cats. I'd like to say the vinegar taste isn't present, but it actually is. I like it better without the vinegar, but the benefits of the vinegar outweigh my preference (benefits being both health and the acidity of the vinegar helps draw out the collagen from the bones)

When I try the bone broth for the cats I might try a small amount of vinegar in a small batch. If they wrinkle their noses at it I can use it for myself and make a new batch without it for them.

Darn sure wish I hadn't given away that slow cooker. I could sure use it now!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> But the nutrients are invaluable!
> I have been making broth for years....well, we were brought up on it actually! I do cook it for a good long time, but nowhere near as long as the 'paleo' trenders dictate, and I have not as yet added vinegar to it as I worry that the smell/taste would put the cats off.


How long is long?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> How long is long?


3 or 4 hours maybe?
or rather I boil it twice....once for half an hour or so after which i cool it and remove as much of the meat as I can. Then I boil it again for a longer period and finally reduce the liquid down so it sets into a nice jelly.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> 3 or 4 hours maybe?
> or rather I boil it twice....once for half an hour or so after which i cool it and remove as much of the meat as I can. Then I boil it again for a longer period and finally reduce the liquid down so it sets into a nice jelly.


What is the difference between boiling it for one hour and four hours? Do you put the meat back in? My broth has the bits of chicken that fell off boiled in it after removing the bone. Sets into a jelly so I warm up and add a bit more water


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

The bone broth recipes for pets I have read say to boil for 24 hours. That's where a slow cooker would be invaluable.

When I make my stock for my own use (not for the cats because I use savory vegetables) I boil for at least 8 hours. It needs that much time to be sure you've extracted the collagen from the bones. Vinegar (again, raw unprocessed) is supposed to lessen the time needed for collagen release, but I still use the 8 hour timing.

I strain everything out (I don't like soggy vegetables) and freeze single human portions in freezer bags. If there is meat to be saved I freeze it separately and add a handful when I make myself a bowl of soup.

For the cats' bone broth I will use ice cube trays for freezing then bag the frozen cubes. I will again strain out meat and bones. Because I have one cat who cannot have anything that is not organic (and I have to be sure no GMO feeds were used) I haven't yet attempted bone broth for the cats, because I have to find an organic non GMO fed chicken first.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Oops - deleted now - was an accidental post & quote from phone will reading in bumpy car - sorry


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

lorilu said:


> The bone broth recipes for pets I have read say to boil for 24 hours. That's where a slow cooker would be invaluable.
> 
> When I make my stock for my own use (not for the cats because I use savory vegetables) I boil for at least 8 hours. It needs that much time to be sure you've extracted the collagen from the bones. Vinegar (again, raw unprocessed) is supposed to lessen the time needed for collagen release, but I still use the 8 hour timing.
> 
> ...


Sounds really gross! :lol: I bet they love it.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Jonescat said:


> Oops - deleted now - was an accidental post & quote from phone will reading in bumpy car - sorry


HAHAHAHA I thought you just liked my post so much you had to repeat it. HAHAHAHA!



Shoshannah said:


> Sounds really gross! :lol: I bet they love it.


You're too funny. Actually my soup stock is delicious. The only reason the cats can't have it as it is, is because I use onions in the savory vegetables.

Well, that and because the one cat has to have organic, GMO free food, and I don't try that hard for myself. (the cat whose digestion and motility was ruined by the Hill's c/d kibble)


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Please understand that this is pure fallacy invented by pet food manufacturers and taught to vets by those same pet food companies during the vet's "nutrition" classes.
> 
> Dry food does not clean teeth. Corn chips do not clean human teeth and dry kibble (which is about equivalent to corn chips, many of them) does not clean cat teeth.
> 
> ...


This is great advice but back then it was before the internet and pet forums off all descriptions so we were really stuck between a rock and hard place and the vet was God - all knowing and the Holy Grail of Cat Care. Since then I have learnt its ok to feed tins of food as MoggyBaby quite rightly pointed out that back in the day that's all we fed.


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## Boobub (Dec 20, 2012)

People are bound to be defensive if someone tells them that something they're doing is harming their cats, especially if they have a vet telling them that what they're doing is right. Nobody is ever ok with being told they're doing something wrong concerning their children, and it's the same with their pets.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Boobub said:


> People are bound to be defensive if someone tells them that something they're doing is harming their cats, especially if they have a vet telling them that what they're doing is right. Nobody is ever ok with being told they're doing something wrong concerning their children, and it's the same with their pets.


You make a good point. Your comment triggered a memory from years ago..when I still believed my cat had to be on that awful c/d. Before the problems with it started. When I thought she was "fine".

Someone told me in a not very gentle way how bad that food was for my cat and I did get my hackles raised quite a lot.

The thing is though, I did go on to learn what they told me was true.

The learning has to start somewhere. People HAVE to be informed _somehow_, how bad dry food it. Why? Because I care about their cats. And because I despise the pet food industry, which spreads such lies to keep these cats on this horrible "food".

So, even if they get defensive, hopefully they will start thinking, and thinking will lead to learning, and learning will lead to them making changes in their cats' diets.


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## My5Kitties (Jan 19, 2014)

The problem with online forums giving advice/encouragement is that it's just words on a flat screen and without the benefit of facial expressions and tone of voices it's very easy to take what someone is saying the wrong way.

When it comes to feeding there's no one size fits all solution. Everyone's personal circumstances are different and every cat is different. What works for one doesn't mean it will work for another.

I've got 5 cats varying in ages from 8 months to 15 years old so have different habits and tastes. They have a mix of grain free wet, some raw and a little dry. I'm happy with this set up for my present circumstances but I'm open minded to change if I felt it was in the best interests of my kitties.

Rachel.


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## Boobub (Dec 20, 2012)

lorilu said:


> You make a good point. Your comment triggered a memory from years ago..when I still believed my cat had to be on that awful c/d. Before the problems with it started. When I thought she was "fine".
> 
> Someone told me in a not very gentle way how bad that food was for my cat and I did get my hackles raised quite a lot.
> 
> ...


I completely agree, it's important that people realize that what they're doing could be unconsciously harming their cats but I also think it's important for people know that when you tell them this, unless you put it very very diplomatically (which is hard to do online) people will most likely be a bit miffed with them and that's only to be expected really. I was actually in the same situation as you, and I also have experience with being a bit peeved when someone told me that the (very expensive) food I was feeding her was causing her harm, but at the end of the day you're 100% right, it does cause people to think, do research, do at least something about it.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

I've had a very short conversation with my vet about dry food, it started with me saying they were picky eaters... He said that it was a good idea to just do all dry as very good for their digestive tract and much cheaper.... I looked in horror and said "but it's all over the internet that dry is bad??!" Hopefully he had a look all over the internet after this conversation. 

My two do get a small portion of dry a day along with good quality wet mid week. Ziggy's gums appear to be a lot healthier when he crunches dry on a regular basis. They both drink a lot of water and I monitor the amount of wee in their litter. They get wet only on a weekend or when I'm working from home.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

I feed mine dry, they wont eat wet and seemed always hungry on it, gypsy lived till 19 my other two are healthy and happy, maybe people should mind their business really about what others do.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Many of us who know how bad dry food is for cats are not ever going to "mind our own business", because we care. It matters to us.

Longevity isn't everything. What also matters is how a cat feels. As has been said in this thread, more than once, is that no matter how "fine" a cat appears on dry food, this doesn't mean much. 

Cats hide illness so well that minor discomforts like a chronic stomach ache and chronic dehydration will not be noticed. The cat seems "fine" but if the cat was fed a more species appropriate diet, you'd be amazed at how much better than "fine" the cats can be.

Dry food does not clean teeth. It still just..amazes me that people can think that is true. It's like saying you brush your own teeth with pretzels. Dry food has no dental benefit at all, and is potentially worse than wet for cats dental health because those carb laden crumbs stick to teeth and between teeth and under the gumline.

Dry food does not "clean" teeth.

Dental health in cats is largely genetic. The only diet that provides dental benefit is a Prey Model Raw (chunks of raw meat, raw bone and raw organs balanced) or Whole Prey diet (feeding whole mice, and chicks and rabbits and such)

There isn't any "nice" way to say these things. People need to know. And if even one person actually learns something and makes the changes, it is worth my time and effort.

Any cat can be transitioned to a wet diet. Sometimes it takes work and time. But if the motivation is there (from the human) it can be done.

Marketing and advertising are powerful things. That's why they are such big business. This is why people believe (and vets) that "dry is fine". Powerful never ending marketing.

It has nothing to do with what is best for the animal, it is simply about money. Dry food is cheap to make and the profits are enormous. And the dry food associated illnesses keep the vets busy.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

What I've found is that it almost always boils down to the money. Dry food is cheaper. Oh but wet food..I can't afford that! Which honestly I think is nonsense, I grew up well below the bread line with a multi-cat household all fed wet, I'm disabled and on a low income now and still feed wet cat food. It's very very doable for anyone. The "my vet says dry is good" is a very convinient excuse to shrug off responsibility.

Also I have to admit I hate hearing this "my cat ate dry food and lived to 15" or "my cat eats dry and looks fine" nonsense. It's the same as "my old granny smoked 40 a day and drank a bottle of whisky every night and lived to 95"...utter rot. And as for "my cat eats dry and looks fine"? My best friend's cat looked absolutely fine until one day he had to be rushed to the vet with a urinary blockage and almost died. He's now on Hill's c/d dry because her vet has told her in no uncertain terms that her cat WILL DIE if she stops using it, and she is too afraid to stop feeding it. As a result of eating Hill's c/d her cat has gained pounds and is now morbidly obese. Healthy stuff there.

Dry food is just junk food and convinience food, people have an attachment to it based on convinience and cheapness, and the sooner that people learn how bad it is for their cats the better.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

So going by this thread, its fair to say that all the "wet fed" cats have never been ill with anything or died young from the very diseases dry sposedly causes?


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

Cats do hide discomfort well, but I do find the argument that dry fed cats MUST be in discomfort but we just don't know it pretty irritating. For all we know cats fed all wet could be equally in discomfort - until someone learns to talk cat then we're all just guessing


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

There are obviously other things which are responsible for cat deaths, some illnesses are genetic, ill treatment and neglect etc. which cause illness but if you feed a cat nothing but dry food for its lifetime, its like a human eating biscuits every day and hardly drinking any water which is highly likely to result in kidney damage and other illnesses. You hear all the time how important it is that we drink enough water, well, its isn't any different for animals though, unfortunately, you can't make them understand that. Water is what sustains life so it seems pretty obvious to me that continually eating food which contains virtually no moisture can't be good for anyone, human or animal, not to mention the ingredients such as sugar and high levels of things like carbohydrates in dry food which aren't good for cats. I admit some animals are luckier than others, same as humans. My parents both smoked all their lives, my mother died of lung cancer at 57, my dad lived until he was 80. For some, its pot luck but why increase the chances of animals dying and raising the number of deaths when with a little more understanding, you could be saving or prolonging your cat's life. If you are arguing in favour of dry food and haven't done any research, then I would say please do, before you criticise those who have and have made an informed decision not to feed dry and only have the best interest of everyone's animals at heart.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

smiler84 said:


> Cats do hide discomfort well, but I do find the argument that dry fed cats MUST be in discomfort but we just don't know it pretty irritating. For all we know cats fed all wet could be equally in discomfort - until someone learns to talk cat then we're all just guessing


Yes, that is true, because many canned foods contain ingredients that probably do cause discomfort in cats. Gums like carrageenan and xanthan, grains, fruits and vegetables...sugars, sure.

But, dehydration will not be an issue, and with cats, that is crucial. Hydration, the moisture content in canned food, is the number one reason to feed canned food. Cats do not drink enough water to counteract the dehydrating effects of a dry diet.

The other issues are important but adequate moisture is absolutely paramount.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> So going by this thread, its fair to say that all the "wet fed" cats have never been ill with anything or died young from the very diseases dry sposedly causes?


That's quite a flippant remark.

From just a single feline diabetes point of view. I have 3 diabetic cats all of which were fed dried food which was high in carbs (as all dried food is, even the good stuff) before I took them in. On changing their diets to a low carb wet food only diet, one of them went straight into remission, one of them is very close to remission (this was a cat that was going to be PTS because the vet declared that the diabetes was uncontrollable) and the other now has well regulated blood sugar, has gained 3kg in weight and has beautiful glossy coat.

That in itself is enough to confirm to me that dried food is bad.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

rox666 said:


> That's quite a flippant remark.


I do believe it was a question not a remark.. hence the ?


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> I do believe it was a question not a remark.. hence the ?


I took the "its" rather "is it" as a rhetorical question.

ETA - and I disagree that people should mind their own business on this subject. I agree that people can be a little over the top and perhaps sanctimonious about it. But, if that helps save some cats from health problems where evidence points to it being linked to a dry food diet then great. When I get the opportunity I try and suggest a wet food only diet to people without ramming the idea down their throat.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

rox666 said:


> I took the "its" rather "is it" as a rhetorical question.


Going by all the defensive posts against dry, I think its a good question. :thumbsup:


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

rox666 said:


> ETA - and I disagree that people should mind their own business on this subject. I agree that people can be a little over the top and perhaps sanctimonious about it. But, if that helps save some cats from health problems where evidence points to it being linked to a dry food diet then great. When I get the opportunity I try and suggest a wet food only diet to people without ramming the idea down their throat.


People dont appreciate someone ramming a way of life for them or their pets, down their throats using judgement and assitude towards them to do it. Suggesting and informing without arrogance usually works better.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> People dont appreciate someone ramming a way of life for them or their pets, down their throats using judgement and assitude towards them to do it. Suggesting and informing without arrogance usually works better.


Completely agree.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

The posts against dry are not defensive. They are educational. Some are theoretical (but common sense says the theories are highly probable) and some are factual.

Many of us who have posted here have learned the hard way why dry is so awful, and seen the wonderful benefits of switching.

If you haven't switched, you haven't seen the benefits. So how can you argue against it?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm finding this very interesting. Although I have taken my cats off dry, it's more about the high carb and rubbish content than anything else, and due to my lifestyle they still get dry when I'm away for a long day about twice a month on average, but now it's a grain-free dry. Also to improve the general quality of their food, they get one raw meal a day. Over a quarter of a century ago I decided not to feed my cats anything containing the vague "various sugars" - these could be harmless naturally occurring sugars like fructose and lactose, but until labelling is clear and nutritional value explained, that's my decision. 

But I still have at the back of my mind my Misha. She had exclusively wet until aged 8 she was diagnosed with early stage CKD. We put her on a renal diet but at the time only Whiskas came in wet, and she wouldn't touch it. So we tried her on Hills KD dry, the only other option. She wolfed it down and put on a pound. She stayed on it for the rest of her life, which was another 8 years, and it was only in the last few months that she began to slow down. We never had any UTIs or other health problems, apart from one occurrence of impacted anal glands. We continued to give her meat when we were preparing or eating it ourselves, and she drank lots thanks to her love of pea cooking water.

Knowing what I know now about dry, versus my experience with Misha's renal failure, puts me in a very real dilemma about what to do should any of my cats now or in the future be faced with the same diagnosis. There's no denying that reduced phosphorus is a good thing, even if opinion is divided about protein. But I can't yet say categorically that I wouldn't do it all the same again, even with better knowledge. It would be a case of weighing up everything from scratch and making the best decision possible. I just can't rule out the possibility that I might one day deliberately put a cat back onto a dry diet. Because life's never that simple.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I feed mine a mixture of dry and wet. They both are extremely fussy cats! I've tried all the good quality dry, they hate it. Only will eat RC siamese and extigent. I've tried all good quality wet. Millie will only set Felix kitten or gourmet chicken or tuna! Milo depending on his mood will eat holistic porta 21 chicken & tuna! 

I work long shifts and when I have to leave wet food out for them all day in the summer, I'm glad they eat dry! :scared: They have big bowls of water all over the house and drink loads.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

MollyMilo said:


> I work long shifts and when I have to leave wet food out for them *all day in the summer, *I'm glad they eat dry! :scared: They have big bowls of water all over the house and drink loads.


Im glad someone bought weather up, thats another issue I had with wet, you try living in 42 degree summers and still preaching wet, the food go's off fast and even night temps here are not going to keep it edible for more then an hour out in the bowl, my cats all have eaten bits at a time they wont sit and eat an entire meal.


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> People dont appreciate someone ramming a way of life for them or their pets, down their throats using judgement and assitude towards them to do it. Suggesting and informing without arrogance usually works better.


I'm all for advice and people sharing their past experiences with me but I find nothing as off putting as someone talking down and lecturing me without thinking about how the other person feels.

I just tune out and shut down no matter what the subject is about then go onto Google as my laptop doesn't make me feel like a scorned 5 year old. :thumbsup:


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

loubyfrog said:


> I'm all for advice and people sharing their past experiences with me but I find nothing as off putting as someone talking down and lecturing me without thinking about how the other person feels.
> 
> I just tune out and shut down no matter what the subject is about then go onto Google as my laptop doesn't make me feel like a scorned 5 year old. :thumbsup:


Oh yea same, even now I'm not reading much of certain posters lectures


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> Im glad someone bought weather up, thats another issue I had with wet, you try living in 42 degree summers and still preaching wet, the food go's off fast and even night temps here are not going to keep it edible for more then an hour out in the bowl, my cats all have eaten bits at a time they wont sit and eat an entire meal.


My cats are canned and raw fed. Winters are cold but summers are hot. The outside temp makes no difference, why should it? Schedule feeding does not rely on cold weather.

And that dry food left out in the bowl all the time is going rancid and stale very quickly in hot weather.

And that is another reason I am against dry feeding. Free feeding. Cats eating stale rancid food. Have you ever touched a bowl of dry food after a cat has had a nibble? Try it sometime. All the pieces left in the top layer of the bowl will be wet from kitty's saliva. So those pieces just sit there breeding bacteria until the next time the cat eats.

Food, no matter what kind, is going to go stale and rancid left exposed to air for any length of time. Even dry feeding, in my opinion, should be done on a schedule. I have never free fed and I am as against free feeding as I am against dry feeding. 

That is why I tell people who want to transition their cats from dry to a healthier wet diet, the first step is to stop free feeding. Cats are not natural grazers, that concept has also been invented by the dry pet food manufacturers.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> I think it's worth distinguishing between the messenger and the message, and not let one issue cloud the other. If that makes sense.


Rep for that . I was trying to find a nice way to say this myself, as I do think it's rather short sighted to declare that wet/raw food is now off the menu simply because someone you don't like told you all about it, and somehow providing thorough information has become distasteful to you. Seems to do the cat more harm than anyone else. You certainly don't cause your own health and wellbeing any damage or benefit by feeding your cat x, y or z. And the person whose knowledge you are shunning equally feels no benefit or harm.

The whole existence of this "debate" at all is reminiscent of the "debate" about climate change. There is solid science on one side of each debate, yet as throughout all ages of history, science is sometimes slow to gain respect.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> Im glad someone bought weather up, thats another issue I had with wet, you try living in 42 degree summers and still preaching wet, the food go's off fast and even night temps here are not going to keep it edible for more then an hour out in the bowl, my cats all have eaten bits at a time they wont sit and eat an entire meal.


The weather and food being out for long periods is a major factor here! Last summer wasn't too bad, but the summer before!!  

My two never finish their wet food. They nibble at it throughout the day. My cats never did get that memo that they aren't suppose to graze


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

lorilu said:


> My cats are canned and raw fed. Winters are cold but summers are hot. The outside temp makes no difference, why should it? Schedule feeding does not rely on cold weather.
> 
> And that dry food left out in the bowl all the time is going rancid and stale very quickly in hot weather.
> 
> ...


I have NEVER come home to a bowl of dry food full of maggots, as I did all the time before I started working from home and left a bowl of wet food out for them. That's not just a health hazard for the cats, it's a health hazard for humans, it's absolutely disgusting, and it was a regular occurrence through even a British summer.

As for free feeding, my cats eat the amount they want and need, always have done. The only exception is Molly, who has a lot of issues from before I had her and even that is manageable as long as I put down no more than 4 meals a day, but I leave the bowls down and she goes back to it as often as she likes. The idea of going out for 8 hours leaving them with nothing to eat at all is profoundly distasteful to me.

cats may not be "natural grazers" but they do hunt and eat when they're hungry, and if that is an hour after the last snack then so be it. I don't think it's for me to judge when a cat is allowed to be hungry.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

MollyMilo said:


> They nibble at it throughout the day. My cats never did get that memo that they aren't suppose to graze


weirdly nor did any of mine, and ive had cats years and years and growing up. 



ForeverHome said:


> I have NEVER come home to a bowl of dry food full of maggots, as I did all the time before I started working from home and left a bowl of wet food out for them. That's not just a health hazard for the cats, it's a health hazard for humans, it's absolutely disgusting, and it was a regular occurrence through even a British summer.


Exactly, flys and maggots are rife in wet, and it would dry out and become disgusting, mine get their scoop of dry each night and its refreshed each evening. They wouldnt touch the wet, it was off meat.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

MollyMilo said:


> The weather and food being out for long periods is a major factor here! Last summer wasn't too bad, but the summer before!!
> 
> My two never finish their wet food. They nibble at it throughout the day. My cats never did get that memo that they aren't suppose to graze


Feeding small portions more frequently solves the problem of leaving out uneaten wet food.

Instead of dumping a whole can down at once, feed smaller portions, and more frequent meals, still, on a schedule.

It can take a little work to teach a cat to eat on a schedule, depending on the cat. It can be done though. Cats graze by _habit_, not nature. Change the free feeding habit, and they will learn to eat on a schedule and that will become habit.

As I said above, dry food left out isn't any nicer than wet food left out. It goes stale and rancid in a few hours. Cats eat it, out of habit. Habits can be changed.

I have one cat who eat as much as is put in front of her at any given time. She would be obese if allowed. I have one who is a very small cat, with an small appetite to match. She won't, can't, eat more than an ounce at a time. And I have the one who I mentioned earlier, who because of a dry diet that ruined her digestion, can't eat more than .3 oz (that's 3/10ths of an ounce) of food at a time.

Two of the cats get six meals a day. This cat gets 12. And yes, I work a 40 hour week. Currently with 10 hours of overtime on top of that, but that is temporary.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Maggots?! 

Not happened here yet. Surely egg to maggot takes more than a day?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> weirdly nor did any of mine, and ive had cats years and years and growing up.
> 
> *Exactly, flys and maggots are rife in wet*, and it would dry out and become disgusting, mine get their scoop of dry each night and its refreshed each evening. They wouldnt touch the wet, it was off meat.


What a line. Flies and maggots rife in wet? Where did you ever hear such a thing? I never said anything about maggots in dry food.

However, while I don't follow recall issues in the UK, ALL the massive salmonella recalls in the USA are on dry food.

Your cats "graze" because you free feed. That is the only reason.

You have, by your own statements, never lived with cats on a wet diet, so you cannot speak with any authority on whether they will benefit or not.

You want to defend dry feeding because it is convenient to you. End of story.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Jonescat said:


> Maggots?!
> 
> Not happened here yet. Surely egg to maggot takes more than a day?


Nope, depends on the ambient temperature, which is why maggots can be used to calculate how long a body has been dead, quite accurately, according to how hot its been during the time the body has been there. At one house we would also get an invasion of silverfish, equally disgusting and unhygienic, and that would happen for about 6 months of the year.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Jonescat said:


> Maggots?!
> 
> Not happened here yet. Surely egg to maggot takes more than a day?





> It depends on a variety of different conditions as to how long it takes maggots to hatch. Usually, maggots take somewhere around 8 to 20 hours. They can take longer or shorter depending on how warm and humid it is.


And in 42 temps thats the shorter period.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> I feed mine dry, they wont eat wet and seemed always hungry on it, gypsy lived till 19 my other two are healthy and happy, maybe people should mind their business really about what others do.


So, when someone posts to a thread and asks, flat out, for advice about what to feed, as they really don't know themselves, you're saying that people should just virtually shrug their shoulders and ignore the question, and just keep on minding their own business? Because someone did ask on this thread, and then others had to jump in and feel all persecuted because the advice given wasn't what they do themselves, so then the advice was classified as preaching. And yet, at the end of the day, it seems that people on the side of feeding wet and raw have science to back them up, and all the success stories on the side of dry come down to anecdotal comments and things the vet said. And given the fact that vets receive little nutritional training and what they do get comes from large dry food manufacturers, their advice is already questionable.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

I don't see an issue with feeding wet food throughout the summer here (can't comment on NZ). If you're going to be out long enough where you feel you have to leave food down, then leave some chunks of pre-frozen wet food down in a chilled feeder. 

I've never had a problem with the food going rancid and I often have to leave wet meals in a timed feeder to make sure the FD cats have regular meals available throughout the day. As for maggots, surely they can't just appear out of nowhere? You need to have had flies on the food that has been left sitting for days for that don't you??

ETA - just seen above comments that maggots can appear within a day, must go and read up on that one!!


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

lorilu said:


> My cats are canned and raw fed. Winters are cold but summers are hot. The outside temp makes no difference, why should it? Schedule feeding does not rely on cold weather.
> 
> And that dry food left out in the bowl all the time is going rancid and stale very quickly in hot weather.
> 
> ...


I free feed Minky...she's a small eater and doesn't eat a lot at one sitting so I feed her little and often and whenever she wants food as I know of a few other members on here that do too.

Maybe instead of "telling" people why not try advising or suggesting.....I understand your passion for wet food feeding but sometimes this can quite easily turn into preaching.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

lorilu said:


> Feeding small portions more frequently solves the problem of leaving out uneaten wet food.
> 
> Instead of dumping a whole can down at once, feed smaller portions, and more frequent meals, still, on a schedule.
> 
> ...


Sounds a great plan, and I wish I had to the time and energy to carry this out.

I have no routine and neither do my poor cats :lol: some days I'm out of the house from 7am to 9 others 7pm to 9am. Then there are days off here and there. Food can't be portioned out evenly.

It's just me as well and I can't pop home for lunch.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

dagny0823 said:


> So, when someone posts to a thread and asks, flat out, for advice about what to feed, as they really don't know themselves, you're saying that people should just virtually shrug their shoulders and ignore the question, and just keep on minding their own business? Because someone did ask on this thread, and then others had to jump in and feel all persecuted because the advice given wasn't what they do themselves, so then the advice was classified as preaching. And yet, at the end of the day, it seems that people on the side of feeding wet and raw have science to back them up, and all the success stories on the side of dry come down to anecdotal comments and things the vet said. And given the fact that vets receive little nutritional training and what they do get comes from large dry food manufacturers, their advice is already questionable.


Oh my mistake,,, I didnt realise this thread was from a poster asking a question.  So no, thats not what I am saying, sorry fell asleep halfway thru your post so wont reply to the rest.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

lorilu said:


> You have, by your own statements, never lived with cats on a wet diet, so you cannot speak with any authority on whether they will benefit or not.
> 
> You want to defend dry feeding because it is convenient to you. End of story.


As above, I have. I acknowledge the health issues, and weigh those into my decisions on my cats' diet. The reality of life is that we do have to factor in convenience to ourselves when making decisions for our pets.

To accuse people of being uncaring or neglectful just because they don't conform to your standards is a little judgemental. We're all doing the best we can for the animals we love. Sometimes that involves doing things that are less than ideal. Those of us who are aware we're making compromises don't need to be sent on guilt trips about it.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lorilu said:


> You have, by your own statements, never lived with cats on a wet diet, so you cannot speak with any authority on whether they will benefit or not.


Try actually_ reading_ other people instead of just focusing on _your_ essays, I already said I have used wet,and the rife in wet, obviously flys cant live in a can can they so I was saying that they are on the food after its opened, (lol @ the arrogance) and I used it for a long time before I switched. .. Also im real proud of you and your goal to convert and save, you are an awesome human being, Bravo


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

lorilu said:


> Dry food does not clean teeth. It still just..amazes me that people can think that is true. It's like saying you brush your own teeth with pretzels. Dry food has no dental benefit at all, and is potentially worse than wet for cats dental health because those carb laden crumbs stick to teeth and between teeth and under the gumline.
> 
> Dry food does not "clean" teeth.
> 
> Dental health in cats is largely genetic. The only diet that provides dental benefit is a Prey Model Raw (chunks of raw meat, raw bone and raw organs balanced) or Whole Prey diet (feeding whole mice, and chicks and rabbits and such)


I have to admit to being fairly astounded at the amount of cats that I read about on here - who belong to members who only feed either wet or raw (but not whole pray) - who have dental problems so, it certainly can't be said that either of these are any good at preventing this either!

It's also put me off getting a pedigree cat as most of the cats affected seem to be pedigrees which I've no doubt have cost a lot of money

None of my animals have ever required dental treatment so I'm obviously doing something right somewhere in my mix of feeding!


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Housefly lifecycle is apparently 14 -36 hours so fair enough - maggots would be deal breaker that would make me move to all-you-can-eat-then-take-it-away feeding, but they haven't turned up here yet. Off to have a scalding hot shower now - I hate maggots!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> As above, I have. I acknowledge the health issues, and weigh those into my decisions on my cats' diet. The reality of life is that we do have to factor in convenience to ourselves when making decisions for our pets.
> 
> To accuse people of being uncaring or neglectful just because they don't conform to your standards is a little judgemental. We're all doing the best we can for the animals we love. Sometimes that involves doing things that are less than ideal. Those of us who are aware we're making compromises don't need to be sent on guilt trips about it.


I was speaking to someone else, as the original post indicates. I have not accused anyone of being uncaring or neglectful.  Please don't attribute statements or sentiments to me that I have not stated. 

I realize that everyone has to make choices based on many factors (as I did with my struvite kitty, much to her detriment). (edited to add) and I did read your post about your CKD cat. Many times genetics will play a part in how well a cat can handle a certain diet.

However some of these "pro-dry" arguments border on the ludicrous and purely false statements.

When people begin making snarky remarks about "not finishing reading a post" and blatant lies such as "canned food contains maggots and flies" what has been up to now an interesting healthy debate has gone the way of kindergarten playground antics. When people start that kind of business you know they have nothing more substantial to base a stand on, so there is no longer any point in trying to have a discussion with them.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> Oh my mistake,,, I didnt realise this thread was from a poster asking a question.  So no, thats not what I am saying, sorry fell asleep halfway thru your post so wont reply to the rest.


And now you're just being childish. Bravo.

I didn't say someone started it with a question--I said if someone posts with a question. Yes, there was just such a question or even two in this thread.


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't think anyone said canned food contains maggots? Just that if wet food is left down in hot weather it can attract flies and the maggots that follow. Personally I've never encountered that. I have found fly eggs on wet food though and my kitchen is quite cool so I could see it happening.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

smiler84 said:


> I don't think anyone said canned food contains maggots? Just that if wet food is left down in hot weather it can attract flies and the maggots that follow. Personally I've never encountered that. I have found fly eggs on wet food though and my kitchen is quite cool so I could see it happening.


Thats what I said, and also another poster had the same problem. Here in summer food is down and flys are there almost immediately, inside or out, and being indoor you cant fly spray them around the food can you, so its a complete hassle.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> I have to admit to being fairly astounded at the amount of cats that I read about on here - who belong to members who only feed either wet or raw (but not whole pray) - who have dental problems so, it certainly can't be said that either of these are any good at preventing this either!
> 
> *It's also put me off getting a pedigree cat as most of the cats affected seem to be pedigrees which I've no doubt have cost a lot of money*
> None of my animals have ever required dental treatment so I'm obviously doing something right somewhere in my mix of feeding!


I've not been on the forum long - is this true? In my years of having cats most have needed a dental of some description in their older years. I wonder if peds are more prone to dental issues or is it just that there are a lot of ped owners on here?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> I've not been on the forum long - is this true? In my years of having cats most have needed a dental of some description in their older years. I wonder if peds are more prone to dental issues or is it just that there are a lot of ped owners on here?


I honestly don't know - maybe it's just because there are more about on here as you suggest - but others might

As lorilu said earlier, a lot of it is down to genetics so if there's a poor dental track record in a line then I guess it stands to reason that it continues down it

I don't know whether health testing can be done for genetics for teeth (maybe someone who breeds can explain a bit more?)

I've always had moggies - apart from 1 Meezer! - and had been thinking about the next one being a pedigree due to being able to get more of an idea of how they might turn out / breed temperment etc due to Mia's issues but ... hopefully it'll be a long time before I need to make that decision!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

smiler84 said:


> I don't think anyone said canned food contains maggots? Just that if wet food is left down in hot weather it can attract flies and the maggots that follow. Personally I've never encountered that. I have found fly eggs on wet food though and my kitchen is quite cool so I could see it happening.


Indeed, Waterlily did:



Waterlily said:


> weirdly nor did any of mine, and ive had cats years and years and growing up.
> 
> *Exactly, flys and maggots are rife in wet,* and it would dry out and become disgusting, mine get their scoop of dry each night and its refreshed each evening. They wouldnt touch the wet, it was off meat.





Waterlily said:


> Thats what I said, and also another poster had the same problem. Here in summer food is down and flys are there almost immediately, inside or out, and being indoor you cant fly spray them around the food can you, *so its a complete hassle*.


Sure. It's a hassle to feed canned food. So you don't. To me, that sounds like a lifestyle choice rather than a belief that dry food is better for cats.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lorilu said:


> Indeed, Waterlily did:
> 
> Sure. It's a hassle to feed canned food. So you don't.


Oh *yawn,, my post rife in wet food) clearly to most except you means after the food is put down in the hot temps  Unless flys can live in a can over where you are or that it can dry out in the can.. lol


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lorilu said:


> Indeed, Waterlily did:
> 
> Sure. It's a hassle to feed canned food. So you don't. To me, that sounds like a lifestyle choice rather than a belief that dry food is better for cats.


Just because you misinterpreted a post dont you put words into my mouth, and farking oath its a hassle to deal with flys covering the food making the cats refuse to eat it and the smell of off meat.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> I've not been on the forum long - is this true? In my years of having cats most have needed a dental of some description in their older years. I wonder if peds are more prone to dental issues or is it just that there are a lot of ped owners on here?


A vet said to me years ago that cats are like people in that some have stronger teeth than others, so maybe it is genetic.

Saying that out of my three 11 year old NFC's just the male has needed dental but that was because he cracked a tooth so there was a reason for the decay.

Out of my previous 3 cats (moggies) only one needed dental and that was again the male.


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> Rep for that . I was trying to find a nice way to say this myself, as I do think it's rather short sighted to declare that wet/raw food is now off the menu simply because someone you don't like told you all about it, and somehow providing thorough information has become distasteful to you. Seems to do the cat more harm than anyone else. You certainly don't cause your own health and wellbeing any damage or benefit by feeding your cat x, y or z. And the person whose knowledge you are shunning equally feels no benefit or harm.
> 
> The whole existence of this "debate" at all is reminiscent of the "debate" about climate change. There is solid science on one side of each debate, yet as throughout all ages of history, science is sometimes slow to gain respect.


I wish people would stop judging - I don't need to justify myself to you or others who have judged me to be a bad cat owner and that my cats are suffering but I don't know it. Give me strength, I don't judge you so give me (and others) the same courtesy.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

lorilu said:


> I was speaking to someone else, as the original post indicates. I have not accused anyone of being uncaring or neglectful. Please don't attribute statements or sentiments to me that I have not stated.
> 
> I realize that everyone has to make choices based on many factors (as I did with my struvite kitty, much to her detriment). (edited to add) and I did read your post about your CKD cat. Many times genetics will play a part in how well a cat can handle a certain diet.
> 
> ...


You are taking part in a discussion on open forum. If you wish to have a private conversation, kindly use the private messaging system. Otherwise, people are perfectly free to give their point of view, whether you like it or not.

There is a place for dry food in some circumstances for some people for some cats, and I agree that education is one thing but being villified for feeding anything short of the best cuts of raw meat in rotation with the finest and most expensive wet food is completely unjustified, judgemental and belongs on Planet Perfectworld where the majority of us do not live.

To put dry into context, it increases the probability of certain conditions. It does not exclusively cause them, and wet-fed cats as has already been pointed out are not immune to them. Guess what - raw fed cats die too!

I have to say having my first (and only) pedigree cat that has been tested for every genetic disease imaginable, raw fed for years and looked after like royalty, I find the issues he has as a result of human-selected breeding far more upsetting and worrying for the future of the cat species than whether he gets a bit of dry food when I'm away for a 20 hour stint at work. We're not allowed to talk about those in case we upset anyone who breeds or owns them. But it's perfectly ok to criticise people who choose to let their cats go outside  or eat poor quality food :eek6: ...



moggie14 said:


> I've not been on the forum long - is this true? In my years of having cats most have needed a dental of some description in their older years. I wonder if peds are more prone to dental issues or is it just that there are a lot of ped owners on here?


No idea - but my 10 year old pedigree who was raw fed for at least 4 years has the worst teeth I've ever seen on an animal his age.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> You are taking part in a discussion on open forum. If you wish to have a private conversation, kindly use the private messaging system. Otherwise, people are perfectly free to give their point of view, whether you like it or not.
> 
> There is a place for dry food in some circumstances for some people for some cats, and I agree that education is one thing but being villified for feeding anything short of the best cuts of raw meat in rotation with the finest and most expensive wet food is completely unjustified, judgemental and belongs on Planet Perfectworld where the majority of us do not live.
> 
> ...


Well said :thumbsup:


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Come on, FH, I was simply explaining what my comment was in reference to. I don't need instructions on what a public forum means, and I know you know that.

I agree with you that in many circumstances people have to weigh the good against the bad in an individual cat's health/illness situation, and make choices based on that. Sometimes those choices are not something a person wants to make, but the alternative is even worse. I, too, have been there.

Wet food proponents know how much better it is for cats to eat a wet diet, because we have done the research and/or seen the difference.

The people who dry feed that are taking this personally, well how can we help them? It's not personal to say "Cats need moisture from their food to be at optimal health". They are free to walk away from the information out there.

Here's my final comment on the issue:

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

I've just got in and read the last pages of this. Blimey some people really are defensive. Except it looks more like aggressive... when someone goes to the trouble of offering advice you can either take it or leave it. It's an easy thing to do. Taking the advice as a personal affront really does seem childish.

Food does go off if left out for awhile. The secret is to not leave it out for awhile. 

Cats can last 8 hours between meals, they shouldn't need to graze between meals any more than our kids do. Just because they might seem hungry every hour doesn't mean they need to be fed every hour, anymore than kids do. Dry food is all about the convenience of the pet owner and the profits of the pet food industry, and in the long term risks causing damage to the health of our cats. Some folks care about this.


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

lorilu said:


> Come on, FH, I was simply explaining what my comment was in reference to. I don't need instructions on what a public forum means, and I know you know that.
> 
> I agree with you that in many circumstances people have to weigh the good against the bad in an individual cat's health/illness situation, and make choices based on that. Sometimes those choices are not something a person wants to make, but the alternative is even worse. I, too, have been there.
> 
> ...


I'd just like to say Minky has a handful of dry on a morning then for the rest of her meals (around 5-6 times a day she is fed wet grain free food) but i have found most of your posts been forced upon anyone who reads through this thread.

you don't take into consideration other peoples circumstances or even their cats...all you seem to do is force feed your opinions down everyones throats,as i wrote a couple of posts ago there are ways of getting your point across without coming across all righteous and brain-washy.

I think the only poster who takes it personally is yourself not anyone else.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Yes we all know that but as above cutting out dry completely is not an option for some and it's not laced with arsenic. Some cats do perfectly well on it despite the increased risk of some health problems.

Now I don't know if I'm the only person to have spotted this, I can't be, surely. A cat's urine is normally concentrated. The right concentration keeps the urinary tract healthy, killing off undesirable bacteria that cause UTIs. If it's too concentrated, this can cause urea crystals and UTIs. However, in a cat with renal failure, the urine can be too dilute, which results in the bacteria being able to multiply, causing UTIs.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but put the above two situations together and it seems cat urine should be within a certain range of concentration, and going outside this either way can cause urinary tract problems. So doesn't that mean the optimum is a matter of balance?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

loubyfrog said:


> ...i have found most of your posts been forced upon anyone who reads through this thread.
> 
> ...all you seem to do is force feed your opinions down everyones throats


No one _forcing_ anything on anyone. It's a forum for discussion. You aren't compelled to do or read anything.


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> I've just got in and read the last pages of this. Blimey some people really are defensive. Except it looks more like aggressive... when someone goes to the trouble of offering advice you can either take it or leave it. It's an easy thing to do. Taking the advice as a personal affront really does seem childish.
> 
> Food does go off if left out for awhile. The secret is to not leave it out for awhile.
> 
> Cats can last 8 hours between meals, they shouldn't need to graze between meals any more than our kids do. Just because they might seem hungry every hour doesn't mean they need to be fed every hour, anymore than kids do. Dry food is all about the convenience of the pet owner and the profits of the pet food industry, and in the long term risks causing damage to the health of our cats. Some folks care about this.


This whole thread started off with people who feed dry being called defensive and people are still doing it. Offering advice is one thing, especially when asked for, but constantly preaching and being judgemental I find offensive and, yes, maybe a little aggressive. If people stop judging people who don't do as others do and call them bad cat owners who don't care about their cats, then people may get a better response.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

lorilu said:


> Sure. It's a hassle to feed canned food. So you don't. To me, that sounds like a lifestyle choice rather than a belief that dry food is better for cats.


I aplogize to Waterlily for making this personal comment. I make no apologies for the rest, I mean what I say. But I don't like personal comments in discussions of this kind and I was wrong to make this one. I'm sorry for making this comment, Waterlily.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> Now I don't know if I'm the only person to have spotted this, I can't be, surely. A cat's urine is normally concentrated. The right concentration keeps the urinary tract healthy, killing off undesirable bacteria that cause UTIs. If it's too concentrated, this can cause urea crystals and UTIs. However, in a cat with renal failure, the urine can be too dilute, which results in the bacteria being able to multiply, causing UTIs.


That is interesting to know.

I dont feed dry regularly and never have but I am super paranoid about UTI's and kidney failure. My previous cat was fed a mixture of wet and dry for 15 years before we lost her to kidney failure. We have no way of knowing if it was an age thing or a diet related thing. Kidney failure at 15 is no uncommon and she wasnt fed exclusively dry so was obviously getting moisture from her food.

Elsa recently developed cystitis, unlikely to be dehydration as she always gets wet/raw but it can easily reoccur so keeping her hydrated is important. I will often add a bit of extra water to their food to keep their hydration levels up but how hydrated does a cat need to be before the problems of too dilute urine occur?

Do you have a link to that? I would be very interested in reading more.


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

CoCoTrio said:


> No one _forcing_ anything on anyone. It's a forum for discussion. You aren't compelled to do or read anything.


It sure is a forum for discussion and reading threads and posts which is exactly what I'm doing which is how I know I find the whole preaching thing majorly off putting.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Oh blimey Oggers I know I've read it on here somewhere. Shoshannah posted a great response to one member who was looking for an interpretation of renal function bloods and urinalysis, but it's not the only place I've seen it. Let me have a dig around.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

I love the way this thread is to do with how defensive people are over dry and it appears that there are more people on PF that are defensive over wet :lol:. All for good reasons mind but still - chill people!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> Oh blimey Oggers I know I've read it on here somewhere. Shoshannah posted a great response to one member who was looking for an interpretation of renal function bloods and urinalysis, but it's not the only place I've seen it. Let me have a dig around.


Thanks 

And people say cats are easy


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> Thanks
> 
> And people say cats are easy


http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/362046-kidney-disease-stage-2-a.html

There ya go - Shosh's long reply 

Sorry that's only half the story I'm still looking for the bit about being vulnerable to infections if urine is too dilute!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/360241-cystitis-stress.html#post1063628624

There's the bit about bacteria breeding in an overdiluted urine environment.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

My, oh my, just read most of this thread and I personally found it a little dictatorial.

I agree that dry food is not the best for cats, it is, apart from anything else, a very un-natural diet. But then again how can those so anti dry speak of how marvellous and good for cats wet food is? 
Cats are natural predators, the best diet for them is raw.


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

Lunabuma said:


> I love the way this thread is to do with how defensive people are over dry and it appears that there are more people on PF that are defensive over wet :lol:. All for good reasons mind but still - chill people!


Mr chill cat is waiting for the kebab shop to open. :lol: :lol:


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

loubyfrog said:


> Mr chill cat is waiting for the kebab shop to open. :lol: :lol:


Have you noticed the *** butt next to him? Smoking is not very good for a cat either and should be actively discouraged.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

loubyfrog said:


> It sure is a forum for discussion and reading threads and posts which is exactly what I'm doing which is how I know I find the whole preaching thing majorly off putting.


Like was said elsewhere recently...  ... try to separate the (imagined) tone of the messenger from the message itself.

Personally, I'm always happy for anyone to preach to me if what they're preaching is the truth, and important, and useful, and something that I really need to know.

:thumbsup:


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

To be honest, reading this thread there was no surprise people would become defensive and I don't blame them.

Yes, education is what it's all about of course. But to almost target pet owners as if they should know it all to the point we stamp them down with our shoes to be made to feel like crap isn't very nice. Not everybody who has cats will know a lot of information on everything about felines and have an almost encyclopaedia on cats in their heads.

This was just like a case when I was seeing my vets quite a lot when I took on a stray who was pregnant. I came on here and told people what the vets were telling me, only to be called a liar or that I should have known better and known the vets were wrong.

I go by what a Vet tells me. After all, they are the ones who went to vet school and learned about cats. They are the ones who everybody goes to when their cats are sick, yet slam them all the time on how crap they are with everything.

So if there is a cat owner whose vet tells them dry food is good because of this and that and this then what would make somebody think 'Well, I don't know. I have a feeling out of nowhere that they are wrong?'

Unless they knew a lot of info about food for cats to begin with they wouldn't doubt what the vets say.

Then there is the argument that a few cat owners have used here. We don't know personally know their cats, do we? We don't know if they are ill, are fussy, chuck from eating certain things, have allergies, etc.

Just because one thing may be good for one pet and they adore it, doesn't necessarily mean it can be applied to all cats.

Just like babies. Don't read a book on babies from a docs perspective on when to feed them, when they should be going onto solid food, etc, because all babies are different and develop at different stages. Some wean quick, others don't.

This can be applied to cats on the differences between them.

I feed my girls mainly wet food, with some dry food. I keep dry in case I run out of wet food and they have something until I go to supermarket. They are also extremely fussy as well as sometimes go off wet food and only want dry for a few days and then won't want dry for weeks and only have wet. So I give a bit of both.


I started to look into raw on a different pet forum and got a lot of advice. I was informed to start at the first stage of just presented the food by itself alone to see if they take to it. One did and one did not. 

I even went to the butchers to gets some of the food as it can be cheaper and better than supermarket raw food. 

It cost a lot to do it like that and I had gotten nowhere. I failed to see how it would be cheaper when what I bought cost over triple the amount for wet food and only lasted three days for one cat who liked it. 

Then there was everything else I had to get on top,

So to argue that when people say it can be expensive is a load of tosh - I argue back that it isn't a load of tosh necessarily.

Plus, I would want my girls to be on the same thing as they get jealous pretty quick of each other if fed different things.

Yes, if someone comes on here asking questions and gets the answers of recommendation they shouldn't be defensive when they asked...

The easiest thing to possibly do is just direct them to the sticky and let them read. Then if they have further questions, they can then do so.


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> Have you noticed the *** butt next to him? Smoking is not very good for a cat either and should be actively discouraged.


He's hardcore and doesn't care,he's saying sod the wet/dry/raw food.....I'll have a smooooke and a lamb kofte...hold the chilli sauce.

This is what would happen If cats had the choice of what to eat and do.:yesnod:


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## rachj (Apr 27, 2014)

my cat (Tilly) only eats dried food as she seems to hate wet food, tried her on different ones (if one ridiculously expensive) and she sticks her nose up, I have wet food in just in case one day she is that hungry she will have it but no luck. It does worry me but my auntie feeds her cat dry food only and never had any problems


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

rachj said:


> my cat (Tilly) only eats dried food as she seems to hate wet food, tried her on different ones (if one ridiculously expensive) and she sticks her nose up, I have wet food in just in case one day she is that hungry she will have it but no luck. It does worry me but my auntie feeds her cat dry food only and never had any problems


and no one is going to judge you on that or force you against your will to reading anything that anyone's ever written on the issue.

What a well-meaning person _might_ do however is to take the trouble to make you aware of the received wisdom on the risks of dry food, so you can be informed and make your future decisions accordingly.

Surely that's not risking offence is it?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> Then there is the argument that a few cat owners have used here. We don't know personally know their cats, do we? We don't know if they are ill, are fussy, chuck from eating certain things, have allergies, etc.
> 
> Just because one thing may be good for one pet and they adore it, doesn't necessarily mean it can be applied to all cats.


Excellent post Blackcats  green blob on its way

I've quoted the above section as I do feel this is really, really important

It is one of the reasons I feed a bit of dry - I didn't particularly feel like explaining why I did earlier as, with the tone of the thread, I felt it would be taken as being defensive - when in actual fact, it's not defensive or trying to justify to others why I do it, it's fact!


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Blackcats said:


> I even went to the butchers to gets some of the food as it can be cheaper and better than supermarket raw food.
> 
> It cost a lot to do it like that and I had gotten nowhere. I failed to see how it would be cheaper when what I bought cost over triple the amount for wet food and only lasted three days for one cat who liked it.
> 
> ...


I have a lot of sympathy which this. I have found it eye-wateringly expensive to feed raw. I know some people seem do it affordably but not at normal retail prices charged by any of the supermarkets or butchers within 10 mile radius of where I live.


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## ehasler (Nov 1, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> Sadly, too many vets in the UK are clueless when it comes to diets for cats. The vet schools have a 3hr seminar from Royal Canin & Hills and the kids come out believing that dry is the best thing since sliced bread. Slaves are then advised to feed dry food 'because it is good for their teeth' (b0ll0x!) and rarely question this advice because they think their vets are all knowing on this issues.


There are some good points on this thread, but I have to point out that the comment above is incorrect. A close member of my family is a vet, and during their 5 years studying at university, they didn't just get a 3 hour session from Royal Canin about nutrition.

Interestingly, at the practice where they work, they've had to treat a number of pets suffering from health issues caused by malnutrition, after being fed raw diets lacking some of the essential nutrients that the animal requires. So in some cases, if you don't know which additional nutrients are required, a raw diet can actually be worse than food bought from a shop.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> I go by what a Vet tells me. After all, they are the ones who went to vet school and learned about cats. They are the ones who everybody goes to when their cats are sick, yet slam them all the time on how crap they are with everything.


Ha ha ha ha, rep for that - you just summed up my life! :lol:

I find myself in disagreement with many vets over diet - dry food for cats does seem to be heavily recommended and I just don't believe in that.

I fed my own cat 95% wet (he had a few Applaws kibbles in his puzzle feeder when I was out), with generous portions of raw.

I recommend wet food for all cats. I ask new kitten owners what they are planning to feed, if they say 'dry' then I will say I recommend wet. Some will swap. Others won't, and that's fine, that's their choice - but at least I told them.

For cats with kidney or bladder disease I tend to put my foot down a bit more and really push wet food. I hate to think I'm bullying anyone, though... it can be very hard.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> Ha ha ha ha, rep for that - you just summed up my life! :lol:
> 
> I find myself in disagreement with many vets over diet - dry food for cats does seem to be heavily recommended and I just don't believe in that.
> 
> ...


Well, you are a good vet then. However, I still don't think we should entirely call vets crap at caring for pets just because they recommend dry food.

As someone said, don't vets only get given a short amount of lectures on food and nutrition for cats when doing the degree?

Perhaps the universities need to sort that out.

I know there are a lot of health issues with it as I have read a lot about it on here from posters issues since being a member but I get tired of people slamming vets about everything, even treatment but are running to them when they need them.

Yes, some people have had bad experience with vets and, of course, if someone really feels a vet is wrong they should speak up but I won't slam vets for that with dry food

You're a vet though, right? One vet to another arguing about it is better. Do you get other vets to recommend wet just like you do? That's a good cause.

I do agree with wet food but then, of course, there are other issues to consider as well with pets. All pets are different and i know some people who go through such stress trying to wean pets of dry who absolutely refuse to eat wet, no matter how healthy and tasty it is.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> Ha ha ha ha, rep for that - you just summed up my life! :lol:
> 
> I find myself in disagreement with many vets over diet - dry food for cats does seem to be heavily recommended and I just don't believe in that.
> 
> ...


When advice comes from a vet such as yourself it is likely to be much better received than someone preaching on the internet 

At the end of the day there IS a lot of misinformation on the internet , including on this forum , and to be fair , it's probably sensible to take a lot of what is read with a rather large pinch of salt !!

It's a shame that not all vets are on board re wet food. If all vets recommended it, I'm sure most people would feed it 

A question for you , the "vets get 3 hours training on feline nutrition , delivered by RC" , that is often quoted on here ? Is that true ? surely not ?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> Well, you are a good vet then.


Aw, thanks for saying so... I consider myself average, but a trier. 



Blackcats said:


> You're a vet though, right? One vet to another arguing about it is better. Do you get other vets to recommend wet just like you do? That's a good cause.


I know some vets who are dry advocates. I tell them I disagree with that and I'm a wet-food lover, guilty as charged. I doubt I've changed anyone's mind yet. :blink: Will keep trying, though.



Cats cats cats said:


> A question for you , the "vets get 3 hours training on feline nutrition , delivered by RC" , that is often quoted on here ? Is that true ? surely not ?


Okay, I have tried to remember following previous discussions on the subject. My memory is shocking when it comes to such things... doesn't sound I paid all that much attention to the food stuff in any case. Whoops... 

We did have a talk on small animal nutrition by some guy from Royal Canin in the first year. They gave us bags, which I guess is where the 'bribery' thing comes in, but as I recall it was a pretty awful bag and I chucked mine.   As for the content of the talk - which was no more than 90 mins and certainly not 3 hours - I don't remember. I DO have the notes upstairs as I still have all my notes, so I'll go and look in a sec. 

After that, I don't recall anything else for dogs or cats, at all. Honestly.

The only mention of wet vs dry food came in the teaching specifically on cystitis and renal disease... I'll double check on what my notes say on that, too.

I remember seeing practice at a Hills practice and looking at the zillions of Hills products on the shelves thinking: "Holy saints, how am I going to remember what all these do?"

Luckily, I never had to because the only ones I have ever used are c/d and s/d for bladder disease and k/d for renal.

Nutrition teaching for small animals, in my experience, was pretty much non-existent, so I couldn't say it was biased either way.

I think raw is catching on in some circles. I was collared by the Nature's Menu peeps while walking around BSAVA Congress a few weeks back. They were like: "HELLO! Have you ever considered recommending a raw diet?!"

And I was like: "Yeah, sure. We stock raw meat."

And they were like... "Oh... okay. Bye then."

I'm intrigued now, I'm going to go check my notes...


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Cats cats cats said:


> When advice comes from a vet such as yourself it is likely to be much better received than someone preaching on the internet
> 
> At the end of the day there IS a lot of misinformation on the internet , including on this forum , and to be fair , it's probably sensible to take a lot of what is read with a rather large pinch of salt !!


People on this forum often take the trouble to provide links to reputable articles and publications in support of the advice they share with other forum members. These articles are more often than not written by vets.

In any case just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's not true.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> We did have a talk on small animal nutrition by some guy from Royal Canin in the first year. They gave us bags, which I guess is where the 'bribery' thing comes in, but as I recall it was a pretty awful bag and I chucked mine.   As for the content of the talk - which was no more than 90 mins and certainly not 3 hours - I don't remember. ...
> 
> After that, I don't recall anything else for dogs or cats, at all. Honestly.
> 
> ...


Blimey heck. They say 'you are what you eat' but it doesn't sound like our vets are given much guidance on preventative medicine in terms of diet... which should be the _most_ important aspect of care. 

No wonder so many are reported as just trotting out the sponsor's company line about dry being best, and no wonder there's the ugly suggestion that vets rely on sickness to pay their wages. I'd assumed vet training would focus a lot on dietary advice for pet animals. Shocked.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Oh no! Disaster!

I've hauled my first year nutrition notes off the top shelf and the dog/cat ones are missing!  Got all the horses, cattle, sheep etc etc etc but I've taken the small animal ones out. Probably chucked 'em, knowing me. :lol:

As for kidney disease - a renal diet is recommended, not stated wet or dry.

Feline bladder disease is the only time I've written 'FEED WET FOOD!' in capitals.

I've got a friend who's a first year vet student at Nottingham and another who's a third year at RVC - I'll FB them and see what they've been taught as they've got more chance of remembering than I do.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

CoCoTrio said:


> Blimey heck. They say 'you are what you eat' but it doesn't sound like our vets are given much guidance on preventative medicine in terms of diet... which should be the _most_ important aspect of care.
> 
> No wonder so many are reported as just trotting out the sponsor's company line about dry being best, and no wonder there's the ugly suggestion that vets rely on sickness to pay their wages. I'd assumed vet training would focus a lot on dietary advice for pet animals. Shocked.


There was a general consensus amongst students that small animal nutrition was rather undertaught - no such problems for cattle etc.


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## LittlePancakeTheExotic (Jun 17, 2013)

The thing thats actually funny about all this is the obviousness of it. What would your cat eat in the wild? What should its ideal diet in "captivity" be? Done. If people choose, for whatever reason, to provide a different diet that's their call but I'm not sure it changes the facts.

Don't get why it actually commands such debate... Like when you break it down and take all human emotions, pride, finances, time, life stress etc out of the equation. Pretty clear to me. 

But let's chill out and just enjoy the time we have with our kitties, never know how long they will be here with us!


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> People on this forum often take the trouble to provide links to reputable articles and publications in support of the advice they share with other forum members. These articles are more often than not written by vets.
> 
> In any case just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's not true.


Of course i know that just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's not true  conversely , "don't believe everything you read "is equally valid 

the point I was making is yes,there are articles online, written by vets even, but the VAST majority of vets would disagree re wet being best , hence why I think education needs to begin with vets as that's who the general public trust.

If we had vets on board I really believe more , no, MOST , people would feed wet food rather than dry food.

I myself had a disappointing conversation with my own vet re raw who belittled raw, spoke of bone impactions causing deaths , the poor quality of the meats in prepared raw etc . She concluded with "why would you want to make your own when the major pet food companies invest millions into getting it right " 

Having said that , I can imagine many vets are anti raw partly due to poorly informed raw feeding. Take a look at Natures Menu Sample raw menu for an example of (mis)information that a lot of people would trust .....Natures menu are after all a raw supplier ....

http://www.naturesmenu.co.uk/shares/sitefile_2999.pdf


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Well my third year vet student friend has come back to me and said they've had literally nothing on dog/cat nutrition so far. Gulp!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2014)

I used to be defensive about dry food being the best thing ever because this is what I was told by the vet, a person you're meant to put all your trust in as this person treats your pet. After alot of research I have found how wrong the old vet I used to use was. If vets were taught properly the dry cat food industry wouldn't exist as we would all know raw food is better for our cats, but unfortunately we have to do our own research online as the vets are taught by the know nothing about feline nutrition giant dry cat food industry/manufacturers.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Cats cats cats said:


> Of course i know that just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's not true


I think if it's on the internet it must be true.

Justin Bieber confirms he is 12 weeks pregnant | NewsBiscuit


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I think if it's on the internet it must be true.
> 
> Justin Bieber confirms he is 12 weeks pregnant | NewsBiscuit


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Well that does explain his recent behaviour if he is pregnant.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> There was a general consensus amongst students that small animal nutrition was rather undertaught - no such problems for cattle etc.


Sounds like MoggyBaby's quip about 3hr seminars from RC was right on the money. :thumbsup:

Maybe we should all feel much more confident in ignoring any dietary advice from our vets which contradicts our own well-studied understanding, and more confident in passing on our knowledge to others without fear of causing offence. 

Maybe we can offer some advice to our vets. Would they be offended to be pointed towards some helpful publications? They'd be utter fools to be at all defensive about it of course, or to take it personally. We all need to learn.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> I think if it's on the internet it must be true.
> 
> Justin Bieber confirms he is 12 weeks pregnant | NewsBiscuit


LOLZ. Brilliant. :lol:

But don't you know, everything is true on the internet, particularly on here as it is a Pet forum. Everbody knows everything on here about cats. Secretly, they're vets like you and they're not telling us.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> LOLZ. Brilliant. :lol:
> 
> But don't you know, everything is true on the internet, particularly on here as it is a Pet forum. Everbody knows everything on here about cats. Secretly, they're vets like you and they're not telling us.


Well they're doing well then, because I don't know everything about cats. :lol:


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm gonna try another one - I'm going to ask on the vet group on Facebook... this could get messy... bit scared...

:lol:


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I know the one crucial thing I need to know, which is that I don't know much, so the best thing is to know how to find out what you need to know.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> I know the one crucial thing I need to know, which is that I don't know much, so the best thing is to know how to find out what you need to know.


Think I got that... that was a lot of 'knows'. You know.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> I'm gonna try another one - I'm going to ask on the vet group on Facebook... this could get messy... bit scared...
> 
> :lol:


This will be interesting


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I have literally written this:

*One question - just wonderin'... Cats: wet or dry food?*

Now we wait...


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Cats cats cats said:


> If we had vets on board I really believe more , no, MOST , people would feed wet food rather than dry food.


It would be a very marvelous thing if either (a) vets were taught more about feline nutrition or (b) more people were aware of how little vets are taught about feline nutrition.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I've found this lovely quote from Michele Gaspar, a certified feline specialist in the States, regarding cats with bladder disease.



> In these situations, canned food (typically OTC) with extra moisture wins out over dry food (even prescription diets) every time.
> 
> In cats who are dry food addicted, transition to a canned diet can be made by following the tips at Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health
> 
> I would start the "canned food mantra" as early as possible with clients who present their cats to you. The first kitten visit is often the best place to start.


So there are vets out there bigging up wet food.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Think I got that... that was a lot of 'knows'. You know.


No .......

Shoshannah while you're here please can you enlighten us on the subject of urine concentration? I do believe the correct concentration deals with bacteria, we all know overconcentrated is an irritant, but can you confirm what I believe I've picked up, that overdilute also causes problems by failing to kill off enough bacteria, allowing UTIs to take hold?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> No .......


Sorry... is that, no, you know? Or no, you don't know?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Sorry... is that, no, you know? Or no, you don't know?


No no no, I know I don't know, you know that!

Have just edited that post with a question for you  x


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> No .......
> 
> Shoshannah while you're here please can you enlighten us on the subject of urine concentration? I do believe the correct concentration deals with bacteria, we all know overconcentrated is an irritant, but can you confirm what I believe I've picked up, that overdilute also causes problems by failing to kill off enough bacteria, allowing UTIs to take hold?


Yeah, pretty much.

Naturally concentrated urine is very hostile to bacteria and they are unlikely to take hold. I suppose an exception would be cases of bladder stones, because they can potentially trap bacteria in their layers.

But generally, UTIs only occur in cats with dilute urine because it's a more favourable environment for bacteria.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> No .......
> 
> Shoshannah while you're here please can you enlighten us on the subject of urine concentration? I do believe the correct concentration deals with bacteria, we all know overconcentrated is an irritant, but can you confirm what I believe I've picked up, that overdilute also causes problems by failing to kill off enough bacteria, allowing UTIs to take hold?


Yes I want to know too!

I feed my cats wet everyday, sometimes I add water to it. 
Once a week they get sardines with extra water
Once a week they will get chicken broth
Every few days they might get a handful of dry each, it depends if I put it in their treat mazes or if like today I am desperate to get Elsa to eat something as she is sulking since I stopped the raw and since Elsworth arrived. What if it was every day?

Is this too much, not enough or an ok amount of water in their diet??


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Yeah, pretty much.
> 
> Naturally concentrated urine is very hostile to bacteria and they are unlikely to take hold. I suppose an exception would be cases of bladder stones, because they can potentially trap bacteria in their layers.
> 
> But generally, UTIs only occur in cats with dilute urine because it's a more favourable environment for bacteria.


Many thanks, that's how I read the situation but always good to make sure :thumbsup:

I take it that's rare in cats that have healthy functioning kidneys?

Bobby does pee what I consider to be an enormous amount and Molly's not far behind so I am slightly concerned, though we haven't had any trouble with waterworks that I'm aware of so far.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> Yes I want to know too!
> 
> I feed my cats wet everyday, sometimes I add water to it.
> Once a week they get sardines with extra water
> ...


I think you'd be hard pushed to get a cat to take in too much water, unless you syringed it down their throats.

Daily water requirements can be calculated using the formula:

(Bodyweight (kg) ^ 0.75) x 70

So, for a 4kg cat, it would be 198ml of water per day.

I found these figures, from a study that compared voluntary water intake of cats on canned vs dry food, but the source has gone missing. :huh:

Canned food (water intake in ml/day):
Water in food: 246 ml
Water ingested PO: 32 ml
Total intake: 278 ml

Dry food:
Water in food: 6 ml
Water ingested PO: 221
Total water intake: 227 ml


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> Many thanks, that's how I read the situation but always good to make sure :thumbsup:
> 
> I take it that's rare in cats that have healthy functioning kidneys?
> 
> Bobby does pee what I consider to be an enormous amount and Molly's not far behind so I am slightly concerned, though we haven't had any trouble with waterworks that I'm aware of so far.


Anything else that makes the urine dilute could also increase the chances of a UTI, even if the kidneys are working well. For example: diabetes, liver disease, medications, tumours etc.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I think you'd be hard pushed to get a cat to take in too much water, unless you syringed it down their throats.
> 
> Daily water requirements can be calculated using the formula:
> 
> ...


Those figures don't look too bad at all for dry!

I guess a cat that's less active needing less calories (eg indoor and lazy) would be most at risk from not needing as much food and therefore taking in less water?

It does make me think that could have been the answer for my Misha then, because with her dry KD she had a lot of pea cooking water and a fair bit of yoghurt which would have bumped up her fluid intake quite nicely.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> Sounds like MoggyBaby's quip about 3hr seminars from RC was right on the money. :thumbsup:
> 
> Maybe we should all feel much more confident in ignoring any dietary advice from our vets which contradicts our own well-studied understanding, and more confident in passing on our knowledge to others without fear of causing offence.
> 
> *Maybe we can offer some advice to our vets. Would they be offended to be pointed towards some helpful publications? They'd be utter fools to be at all defensive about it of course, or to take it personally. We all need to learn.*


I bring information in to my vet every time I go. I usually print things out, and then she has the option of visiting the website for further information if she wants. She actually asks me questions about what I feed my cats and why, and takes notes .

In turn, because she knows I want to know, if she is recommending a treatment or medication for one of my cats she does research and tells me of all the risks before prescribing it. My vet is not anti raw and I hope but don't know for sure that she may have stopped recommending dry feeding for cats. She is a staff vet and I know there is pressure on her to push the Hills, because of the kickbacks.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> Those figures don't look too bad at all for dry!
> 
> I guess a cat that's less active needing less calories (eg indoor and lazy) would be most at risk from not needing as much food and therefore taking in less water?
> 
> It does make me think that could have been the answer for my Misha then, because with her dry KD she had a lot of pea cooking water and a fair bit of yoghurt which would have bumped up her fluid intake quite nicely.


No they don't! That makes me feel comfortable about some dry food and Dreamies or if I need to feed the odd day of dry.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

lorilu said:


> She is a staff vet and I know there is pressure on her to push the Hills, because of the kickbacks.


That is worth remembering. Some employed vets have no choice but to recommend certain things, as instructed by their employers.

I'm lucky in that I'm employed by pretty forward-thinking vets who stock raw food and let me recommend wet.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> No they don't! That makes me feel comfortable about some dry food and Dreamies or if I need to feed the odd day of dry.


With all the extra fluids you are giving I can't imagine a bit of dry could cause too much damage


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sixteen FB verdicts so far.

Got six 'dry'.
Three 'wet', including me.
Seven 'boths'.


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## Miceandmore64 (Jun 7, 2013)

Im both..depends what we brought. Sadly my 17 year old cat isn't eating and is peeing/pooping blood so mum said it was a bowel obstruction and we have to get her put down


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

I have been following this thread with interest but haven't posted so far. I'm not going to comment on the whole wet/dry debate as such, because everything has been said already (tenfold!) however I would like to say this:-

The discussion has gotten a little heated and I can understand why those on both sides have gotten a bit hot under the collar from reading through the posts. But I think the important thing to take away from this, and all of the other debates that go on in this forum, is that at least by being on here we are being made to actually THINK about this stuff. I stumbled on to this forum by accident, and if I hadn't, I probably wouldn't know that there was any discussion to be had and blithely gone on my way. Whatever choice you make at the end of the day, wet/dry, indoor/outdoor, the value of this forum is that it makes you think. Even if it doesn't actually change your opinion at the end of the day, the fact that the discussion is out there means that you are aware that there is discussion to be had (if that makes sense!) and you are either consciously sticking with the status quo or making an informed choice to change things, not just blindly doing things a certain way.

At the end of the day, we all care about our pets, and we wouldn't be getting so hot and bothered about it if we didn't, so whatever "side" you are on, we all have that in common, right?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> I found these figures, from a study that compared voluntary water intake of cats on canned vs dry food, but the source has gone missing. :huh:
> 
> Canned food (water intake in ml/day):
> Water in food: 246 ml
> ...


Those numbers look interesting. The source is vital if they're to be given any credence at all of course... any chance you can find it?

Do you think it was an independent study or could it have been sponsored by a cat food manufacturer? Any idea of the methodology?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

CoCoTrio said:


> Those numbers look interesting. The source is vital if they're to be given any credence at all of course... any chance you can find it?
> 
> Do you think it was an independent study or could it have been sponsored by a cat food manufacturer? Any idea of the methodology?


I pulled it off a veterinary discussion board, and whoever put it up said they couldn't find the source! I will certainly have a look - agreed that knowing the source is important in assessing credibility.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes, otherwise it's impossible to ascribe any credibility at all. 

I'd be very happy to have revealed some evidence to assure us that we can all happily go back to nice easy free-fed dry food. It'd make life much simpler.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

CoCoTrio said:


> Yes, otherwise it's impossible to ascribe any credibility at all.
> 
> I'd be very happy to have revealed some evidence to assure us that we can all happily go back to nice easy free-fed dry food. It'd make life much simpler.


I'll have a look this week, my brain's done for the night.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'd be very happy to have revealed some evidence to assure us that we can all happily go back to nice easy free-fed dry food. It'd make life much simpler.


Really? Just on the basis of fluid intake? Has this discussion on diet really been boiled down to that one issue?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

I mean wouldn't it be nice if it could ever be shown that the profitability of the pet food manufacturers, the convenience of their customers and the health of pet cats were all equally served by bunging down a plate of dehydrated biscuit-food? Wouldn't life be simpler if we could believe what we're told, that it's a waste of money to pay for the water in canned pet food? Wouldn't it be easier if cats were a bit more flexible in their nutritional requirements and would fit in more with our lifestyles and the pressure from industry marketing? 

Those who feed dry all seem to do so because it's more convenient for various reasons (and recommended by some vets who really should know better). Wouldn't we all welcome that convenience if it could ever be proven that those vets are right, and all this talk of wet food being healthier is wrong? No more cans to carry, no more heavy shipping costs, no more set mealtimes! 

I'm sure the dry food manufacturers would love to be able to convince more of us that cats will always fully hydrate themselves from water bowls like dogs when living on dry processed food. I'm sure they've put some effort into it. :sosp:

It would be fine and dandy for all us humans if it was all so simple, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect things to be so convenient for us. If the proof was out there that dry food was best, I'm sure they'd have found it by now.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> Yes, otherwise it's impossible to ascribe any credibility at all.
> 
> I'd be very happy to have revealed some evidence to assure us that we can all happily go back to nice easy free-fed dry food. It'd make life much simpler.


I'd not worry about that research, if it indeed exists. What would matter is whether your own cat would consistently drink that much water; easily tested


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

True enough  but would my cat be typical? This thread has raised hackles because some people are offering advice to other people on the understanding that _all_ cats share a need for moisture in their food. I'd be really interested to know if that one-size-fits-all advice is at all misguided.

Have to say I'd be very loathe to experiment with Mr T by deliberately dehydrating him to test his ability to take on water! :scared:


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

CCT it's not about everyone deciding on the basis of one unsourced comment switching every cat onto exclusively dry or claiming dry is better. These figures don't change any current advice, there is still a fluid deficit but it's maybe not quite as drastic as some of us were expecting, if these figures are right. I've done a little calculation on my cats' weight and water requirement, compared to the amount of food they eat and the water content, and according to this on wet food only they are still 33% short on water. With the amount they pee, the pair of them should be prunes, even on purely wet.

So something's wrong in the figures somewhere, or else in my calculations for 2 cats with a combined weight of 9.5kg eating 600g of wet food. I make their requirement 470ml daily of which 280ml is provided by wet food, so they would have to make up 190ml by drinking, which is just not real. According to those figures if they drink the same proportion of water:food as those figures, that makes their total intake 312ml - a whopping 158ml short.

Looking at a cat that hunts for a living - 198ml fluid requirement would equate to 282g of meat, or 7% of the cat's body weight. That's more than double the recommended feeding for a pet on raw. It will need a lot more food if it has to keep warm at night and catch its own food. That much more? Maybe.

Does that translate to a domestic cat? Do they need the same _amount _of fluid as a wild cat, or the same _proportion _of fluid in their food? My guess would be somewhere in between but maybe at the proportion end of the scale, in which case tinned food provides it perfectly and dry is 51ml short. Which is, as we know, chronic _low-level _dehydration with an increased risk of the health problems we know about.

So yes all dry would be bad but I don't think people need to be told they are killing their cat if they give a small amount of dry while they are out all day or to let the cat nibble while they are asleep.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> This thread has raised hackles because some people are offering advice to other people on the understanding that all cats share a need for moisture in their food. I'd be really interested to know if that one-size-fits-all advice is at all misguided.


This has been in my mind from the start. Some breeds are known to drink water more than others and even within such broad categories each cat is individual. Annoyingly, I feel daring to air these points means I come across as an advocate of a dry food diet when I'm anything but.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

havoc said:


> This has been in my mind from the start. Some breeds are known to drink water more than others and even within such broad categories each cat is individual. Annoyingly, I feel daring to air these points means I come across as an advocate of a dry food diet when I'm anything but.


It's only natural when an argument is so heavily one-sided that just trying to offer up a balanced view is going to make you look as thought you're on a side where you're not really. For what it's worth, I understand!


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

No one should feel nervous about expressing doubts about anything. No one should feel nervous about expressing passionately held convictions either. No one should take offence or feel defensive. It's all learning and it's all for the good of cats. 

Sure different cats will have different attitudes towards water - eg Mr T won't touch the stuff whilst my little dry-fed cat years ago drank freely but still died suddenly of kidney failure. 

I think the one-size-fits-all general advice that cats need moisture in their food holds good, if only based on common sense.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think the one-size-fits-all general advice that cats need moisture in their food holds good


Need? Better *by far *I agree but I couldn't absolutely state a need. I wish I could. If hydration is the only question over dry food then there's no point advising people to spend extra on grain free/high meat content etc. is there?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

If the risks of dehydration are so great then the distinction between grain-free high end food and supermarket junk become irrelevant. No one should go near the stuff. If anyone perceives the dehydration risk to be acceptable then the quality of the dry food becomes an issue worth considering.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> So something's wrong in the figures somewhere, or else in my calculations for 2 cats with a combined weight of 9.5kg eating 600g of wet food. I make their requirement 470ml daily of which 280ml is provided by wet food, so they would have to make up 190ml by drinking


Tis your calculations.

Two 9.5kg cats need 470ml between them. Agreed.

Water delivered by 600g wet food....

Say 78% from moisture in food = 468 + metabolic water say 600kcal * .12 ml = 72ml for a total fluid intake of 540ml.

...a surplus of 70ml.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Satori said:


> Tis your calculations.
> 
> Two 9.5kg cats need 470ml between them. Agreed.
> 
> ...


Thank you  in fact Butchers is 82, so a meal of dry 20 times a year isn't going to kill them. I'm not worried about moisture (especially given the amount Bobby drinks and Molly gets in the yoghurt she loves) so quality of dry is indeed my biggest concern.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If the risks of dehydration are so great then the distinction between grain-free high end food and supermarket junk become irrelevant. No one should go near the stuff. If anyone perceives the dehydration risk to be acceptable then the quality of the dry food becomes an issue worth considering.


Exactly. So what is the argument. Is it dehydration? It would be so much easier if every cat on a dry diet ended up with kidney failure while every one fed wet food didn't. That's not how it works though is it? The suggestion made that a cat can be sub clinical doesn't wash only for dry food, the same could be true of a cat on the most wonderful diet. In many cases an owner makes the change once a cat is diagnosed with a problem but by definition it won't be the only change.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

havoc said:


> Exactly. So what is the argument. Is it dehydration?


For my money, yes that's exactly what it is, except I don't see any argument. It seems to be an accepted truth that cats risk harm caused by dehydration when fed a long-term dehydrated diet even where water is available.

The argument on this thread has been whether well-meaning people should feel free to advise others of the risk.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

CoCoTrio said:


> For my money, yes that's exactly what it is, except I don't see any argument. It seems to be an accepted truth that cats risk harm caused by dehydration when fed a long-term dehydrated diet even where water is available.
> 
> The argument on this thread has been whether well-meaning people should feel free to advise others of the risk.


Advise, yes, that is helpful.

Making sure a sanctimonious lecture is worked into every reply to every question on any topic whatsoever, a bit OTT maybe.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Sanctimonious? ... implies hypocrisy and invokes religion. ??

The use of words and phrases such as 'sanctimonious', 'preaching', 'force-feeding' etc are all way off the mark in my opinion, and might be seen as an indication of defensiveness which is of course what the OP was all about. 

Ascribing a tone or motive to a bit of forum advice is up to the reader but it's difficult to know if it's justified. It may easily reveal more about them than it does about the writer.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

havoc said:


> Exactly. So what is the argument. Is it dehydration? It would be so much easier if every cat on a dry diet ended up with kidney failure while every one fed wet food didn't. That's not how it works though is it? The suggestion made that a cat can be sub clinical doesn't wash only for dry food, the same could be true of a cat on the most wonderful diet. In many cases an owner makes the change once a cat is diagnosed with a problem but by definition it won't be the only change.


Hydration, # 1 issue, which trickles down into Quality of Life. Dehydrated cats do not feel as well as they could. "Fine" may be okay for some people, for me it is not. 

I will continue to advise people to feed a wet diet, for their cat's health and overall well being. And I will continue to dispel ridiculous fallacies such as "they need dry for dental health" and "corn is good for cats"

Just seeing the positive changes in the cat of the one "real life" friend whom I have reached makes it worth my effort to keep on keeping on.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

CoCoTrio said:


> Sanctimonious? ... implies hypocrisy and invokes religion. ??
> 
> The use of words and phrases such as 'sanctimonious', 'preaching', 'force-feeding' etc are all way off the mark in my opinion, and might be seen as an indication of defensiveness which is of course what the OP was all about.
> 
> Ascribing a tone or motive to a bit of forum advice is up to the reader but it's difficult to know if it's justified. It may easily reveal more about them than it does about the writer.


Different points of view. Advising is great, we all benefit from learning more about how to better care for our feline companions. However I read one thread recently which was absolutely fanatical and on that one I make no apology for calling it sanctimonious. It was frankly embarrassing, and that level of obsession does the cause no favours. Once a poster has been advised that dry food for a kitten with a UTI is bad, there's no need for more pages of the same message in bold and underlined, as if the poster was stupid. That is what I call over the top.


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Let's just all agree....













That chocolate is the best


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lorilu said:


> I aplogize to Waterlily for making this personal comment. I make no apologies for the rest, I mean what I say. But I don't like personal comments in discussions of this kind and I was wrong to make this one. I'm sorry for making this comment, Waterlily.


I also apologise, for getting arsy about it. I have reasons ive also taken aboard whats been said, for now though I have to do life my way.



Jellypi3 said:


> Let's just all agree....
> 
> That chocolate is the best


I prefer savoury over sweet


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> Different points of view. Advising is great, we all benefit from learning more about how to better care for our feline companions. However I read one thread recently which was absolutely fanatical and on that one I make no apology for calling it sanctimonious. It was frankly embarrassing, and that level of obsession does the cause no favours. Once a poster has been advised that dry food for a kitten with a UTI is bad, there's no need for more pages of the same message in bold and underlined, as if the poster was stupid. That is what I call over the top.


Ooh give us the link FH. I'm keen on fanatical sanctimonious embarrassing obsessive over the top stuff. It sounds GREAT!  If only to cringe at.

In any case (just to play Devil's Wotsit a bit more) if someone politely advises someone else that feeding dry food to a kitten with a UTI is bad and then _no one else backs up the advice_, the advice may not seem trustworthy. This being the internet and all. But if the good advice is supported by a torrent of passionate or fanatical repetition... bold and underlined!... the OP can be much more sure that it's advice to be heeded.

There's never any need for rudeness of course, but then I haven't seen any from anyone on the wet side of the row in any case. Nor sanctimony neither.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> You are taking part in a discussion on open forum. If you wish to have a private conversation, kindly use the private messaging system. Otherwise, people are perfectly free to give their point of view, whether you like it or not.


I liked your post for this bit right here. Too many people seem to forget this entirely, on any side of any discussion.

This is a public forum. So, if you post a thought or opinion, you are putting it out there for the world to see and react to. You can't then moan about someone who doesn't agree with you. It's not a bulletin board where you just stick your thoughts of the day up, or your diary. So, in general, if you jump into something controversial you have to prepare yourself for controversy and not cringe about being "judged" or feel slighted when other people disagree with you. It's a public forum and everyone who responds obviously has some sort of opinion on the matter at hand. Some opinions are based on hunches or feelings or evidence--empirical or anecdotal--or hearsay.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> *If the risks of dehydration are so great then the distinction between grain-free high end food and supermarket junk become irrelevant.* No one should go near the stuff. If anyone perceives the dehydration risk to be acceptable then the quality of the dry food becomes an issue worth considering.


Perhaps not completely - going on personal experience dry food seems to come 'out' somewhat more moist than when it went in, wet food less moist than it went in, and raw food as dry as dry food when it GOES in 

So, if dry food requires extra water to soften the food for processing, the more dry the cat has to eat, the more water is required to process it and is also lost to the body in the poo. As you need to feed a lot less of the higher quality foods, less water is required to process it, so the risk of dehydration is slightly reduced.

Of course, that does assume water intake remains similar for both dry foods (or at least that the water intake doesn't increase in line with or greater than the dry volume intake, but that does seem unlikely given the low thirst drive of cats) and that my observations are valid, but it does seem logical to me. 

I'm just glad my pair both love their wet, though I'm still working on Lori as far as raw goes  I have dry for shows and travel, but that's it these days, and Charlie looks so much better on grain free wet/raw at the age of nearly 9 years old than she did when she came to me at the age of five on supermarket own brand dry and wet.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

An interesting thought, that some dry foods may be more dehydrating than others regardless of having the same moisture content. Maybe like salty crackers versus sweet biscuits for a human?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> An interesting thought, that some dry foods may be more dehydrating than others regardless of having the same moisture content. Maybe like salty crackers versus sweet biscuits for a human?


That could also be taken into consideration, yes. I had been thinking more in terms of pure volume - you have to feed a lot more low quality dry than high quality dry to achieve the same nutrition, so more water is needed to process the higher volume of lower quality food. But content might have an effect, too - especially as the grain bulk fillers both have to be moistened and lead to more poo anyway.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

^ There's may be another explanation too. There's a suggestion (see max house feline nutrition) that some of the water that is drunk separately from the food intake is wasted by being used to moisten fecal matter rather than increasing urine volume.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Well, my wee Facebook question has got 61 replies so far, and there is some lively debate going on.

Current tally is actually quite interesting:

Dry - 16
Wet - 12
Both - 10

Reasons for feeding dry range from dental health, convenience and finding wet food too messy or smelly.

Reasons for feeding wet range from moisture provision to reducing obesity.


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

I do find this interesting. I used to work for [email protected] and when we were sent on Nutrition courses we were taught that cats dental hygiene meant that they had to eat dry, but to feed grain-free. We were also taught that they needed taurine, but that wet is mostly water so is less value for money.

It seems like such mixed messages now, considering. I know most the people who work there feed their cats dry, and they won't feed felix or whiskas or Go Cat, they buy the expensive stuff because they are taught that Applaws and [email protected] own brands etc are the best. I wonder how many will question my feeding methods when I get my two!


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

It is interesting Shosh.

I thought they might have reasons we didn't know about for recommending dry .... but no.

I've fed wet only for years as my last boy got blocked twice so I learnt the hard way well before I found PF - although thanks to PF they also get 1 raw meal a day now.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Large proportion of dry feeders who offer wet food as a treat...


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

There is nothing wrong with educating people about a healthy lifestyle for felines. Nobody is dismissing that at all and nobody is slamming people for educating others on the healthy dieting for cats either. It's great to be honest that there are people willing to be helpful and give advice.

But there is a vast difference in how you get your education across.

Yes, this is a public forum as one of you has pointed out and you can post as you please. Yes, some of you think a big fat no to being all pink, glittery, and fluffy because apparently that means sugar coating things. I say BS about that whole ridiculous argument point.

People are going to be defensive when you get comments that come across as mighty preachy in such a way that it screams 'I am the best cat owner in the world who has never made any mistakes so I will grind you down on the bad and negative things you have done'

You can still be educating and give advice in a pleasant, inviting, friendly way without having to sugar coat anything.

Look at Chillminx as a fine example. She has given so much wonderful help and advice to hundreds of people on this forum and she has been both friendly, inviting and supportive in each comment she has ever posted.

In fact, just the other day she was stressing to someone with a sick cat not to feed dry food and gave a good list on why and the health reasons behind it. 

Unlike some people who really do come across as preaching and defensive, as opposed to the other way round with the dry feeders actually being the defensive ones.

Yes, this is a public forum and yes, of course advice is going to be given. But sometimes comments really do come across as quite abrupt and rude which would for sure make someone feel quite upset and feel like crap from it.

And, no, I call anyone a liar who says they would happily speak to someone like that in the real life with balls.

However, this is not aimed at anyone in particular. I am all for glittery, cute pink fluff as I see that in the kindness Chillminx has given on this forum and she has never sugar coated anything. Very rarely have I seen anyone being defensive towards her.

Why others?

So we can pretends that dozens and dozens of people are the ones who are in denial, defensive and paranoid or we can say that perhaps actually we are the ones who may need to tone it down a bit. 

We are all pet lovers and care for the well-being of cats.

But, seriously, people will listen more if they feel they are not being judged, preached at and made to feel like crap.

Otherwise, such education will be dismissed again and again and again and what a waste really.

And as I said in my first post on this thread, I really cannot stress on the stopping of judging a book by it's cover. Sure, we only go by what we are told but then we don't know each individual cat and each feline is different to others.

Let's not pretend that all cats are the same and it is very easy to say people make excuses in feeding dry because it is more 'convenient' when actually that is false in most of the cases. It is much easier to say to someone they are making excuses and it is super easy to get cats onto wet food because we assume they should dive straight for it from what they need and instincts, when our own cats have never had such problems with weaning off dry food and being fussy in the first place.

So, I encourage people giving advice on the bad effects of dry food with risks and the positive on wet food but there is nothing wrong with being friendly about it. To think that is a form of sugar coating is by far ridiculous.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> Well, my wee Facebook question has got 61 replies so far, and there is some lively debate going on.
> 
> Current tally is actually quite interesting:
> 
> ...


Could it be worth some of us on here (Members such as CM, CCT, LL if they are willing to do it) set up a facebook page on why wet food is so important for felines for cats and giving facts on the risks of dry food?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I picked this up at BSAVA Congress, I haven't read it yet but will try and get around to it. 










Here's a cat excerpt:


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> There is nothing wrong with educating people about a healthy lifestyle for felines. Nobody is dismissing that at all and nobody is slamming people for educating others on the healthy dieting for cats either. It's great to be honest that there are people willing to be helpful and give advice.
> 
> But there is a vast difference in how you get your education across.
> 
> ...


Well said BC especially the part about Chillminx's way with words.

Her advice rocks.:thumbsup:


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Jellypi3 said:


> I do find this interesting. I used to work for [email protected] and when we were sent on Nutrition courses we were taught that cats dental hygiene meant that they had to eat dry, but to feed grain-free.


That's quite surreal, [email protected] near me stock every dry under the sun but not one grain-free.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Blackcats, that's amongst the best posts I've read in quite a while. :thumbup:


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Blackcats said:


> Could it be worth some of us on here (Members such as CM, CCT, LL if they are willing to do it) set up a facebook page on why wet food is so important for felines for cats and giving facts on the risks of dry food?


I'm all for campaigning and tho' I don't have anything to do with Facebook I think the internet does a fab job of spreading good advice. I hope threads like this on major forums like this really help to get the point across. Even if cat owners read about the wet/dry issue and still stick with dry at least they know a bit about what's going on and won't be left feeling like their pet suffered from their ignorance.

The campaign I'd like to see is one that targets VETS! Seems like veterinary schools need to try harder to keep up with what's new, and to think more about diet being the first and last of healthcare. It amazes me that some of Shosh's FB vet folks have come out in favour of dry because wet is inconveniently messy/smelly. Singing: As someone else said - when vets get the message it'll really make a huge difference.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

What I'd like to know is, people who find wet messy, how do they cope when food comes back up? It's all part of the package.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> What I'd like to know is, people who find wet messy, how do they cope when food comes back up? It's all part of the package.


I used to grab the TV guide and shove it under Orange when he started heaving.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

sorry but has anyone noticed how many special offers free toys bowls ect are being given away along side dry food on zooplus and other websites , and the fact that the most you get with wet is a free extra sachet or tin every now and again


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I used to grab the TV guide and shove it under Orange when he started heaving.


Good plan, I might start buying it!


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> What I'd like to know is, people who find wet messy, how do they cope when food comes back up? It's all part of the package.


Not in this house - food does not come back up, and we don't really get hairballs.

On the subject of teeth and pedigrees - all I can find is reference to studies of feral and wild cats in Africa and Australia that confirm that these cats have less dental tarter than domestic cats fed canned and dry diets, yet suffer the same incidence of periodontal disease, which apparently means there isn't a simple relationship between tartar and periodontal disease. So yet again more research needed. There are some specific references to the fact that jaw shape may be a factor but this would mean, if proven, that only some breeds would be affected, not a blanket for all pedigrees, and as with humans, any moggie with wonky or overlapping teeth would also be vulnerable.

On the subject of dry food - is it all about water? - my twopennorth is that we don't know because the all-meat kibbles haven't as yet been subject to the same studies as cereal based kibble.

And I have never had a cat knock a biscuit bowl out of my hand in its enthusiasm or throw the biscuits round the room like my raw eaters do but that could just be their preference


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

my two have nearled killed me two nights running at the prospect of raw pork cop and that was after their normal big dinner  they loveeeeeeeeee it :thumbsup:

oh and btw my homemade hoisin pork and veg stir fryed egg rice was phemonomnomable :thumbsup: and i saved them a tiny bit of cooked pork too just to be fair like 

the thanks i got .....well they both gone straight to bed lol,


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Bobby was on raw exclusively for the whole time he was with the breeder which I think was 4 years or so. She gave me one bag to tide us over till my order came, from the same supplier. From the moment he arrived, he refused point blank to touch it. 

A year on, he will eat chunks of turkey or pork, but he won't touch beef or lamb unless it's lightly cooked. Stranger still, Molly will and won't eat exactly the same things he will and won't, except that she eats cheese, yoghurt and her favourite treat strawberry ice cream.


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