# Border collie expert needed



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

So someone mentioned something to me, i'd never thought of till now because I had no idea about collie colours.

I'd orginaly just thought Luna was a blue merle, later thought she was a blue tri merle but two people have now said they think she's a slate tri merle.

I'm trying to look at pictures and figure the difference but it's not working so well :lol:

I'm wondering is she a Tri blue merle or a Tri slate merle?

































































Thanks :lol:


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Well I'd say she was tri blue merle but I'm no expert on colours. As far as I know the merles with a lot of black are called black merle and I've never heard of slate merles.

No help really am I?...LOL


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

She's a blue merle with tan, or a tri blue merle! And very pretty 

No such thing as a black merle.... although blue merle is the equivalent of a solid 'black' dog... they were called blue merles before it was considered worthy enough to call the dilute versions of black 'blue'.

The dilute of blue merle is called a slate merle (sometimes ISDS call solid blue 'slate' which is now very confusing...)

Collies come with the basic black gene which can be modified into brown (old red) and also can be 'dilute' and/or 'merle'. Merle isn't a 'colour' as such, but the effect is to dilute the solid black or brown colour. It doesn't affect white or tan. As sable and tan are variations on the same gene sables don't show the merle gene either....

So black based dogs can be black and also 'blue' (dilute) or blue merle (dilute would be 'slate'). If these have tan then they're 'tri-coloured'. A dilute dog will not have any black on it (even it's nose will be lighter), a blue merle will have black on it, a slate merle wont

Brown (old red) based dogs can be brown (red), or 'lilac' (dilute), red merle and the dilute version - lilac merle. The dilutes wont have any of the dark red/brown patches.

All of these can come with tan (tri)

Sables (tan) can't come as tri and whilst they may have the merle gene it'll be almost impossible to tell once they're beyond the puppy stage.

There's also the true red (Australian) which doesn't show the merle gene either - not as common this is quite a light almost yellow colour....

You can also get seal coats... again which don't come in tri


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Twiggy said:


> Well I'd say she was tri blue merle but I'm no expert on colours. As far as I know the merles with a lot of black are called black merle and I've never heard of slate merles.
> 
> No help really am I?...LOL


I'm still learning, what happened to the days when I thought collies just came in black and white :lol:



PennyGC said:


> She's a blue merle with tan, or a tri blue merle! And very pretty
> 
> No such thing as a black merle.... although blue merle is the equivalent of a solid 'black' dog... they were called blue merles before it was considered worthy enough to call the dilute versions of black 'blue'.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, thank you  still learning loads about collies, fascinating how many variations of colours they come in.


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

I always find the easiest way to tell is to look at the nose... slates always have greyish noses.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Border Collie Colours


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Tacey said:


> I always find the easiest way to tell is to look at the nose... slates always have greyish noses.


Ahh, Luna's nose is black but in one photo she looks to have a grey nose which may be why it was suggested.



smokeybear said:


> Border Collie Colours


Not helpful, just confusing.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

My blue merle (tri) playing with his red merle brother










Here is Ski all grown up









Oswy (black tri)









Brown (red) tri Cody









Blue and white Mercury


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

PennyGC said:


> Here is Ski all grown up


There's a blue merle like that down our park without the brown tri patching but he's a much darker blue than Luna.

Luna is a very soft colour, mind you she's only 12 months at the moment, so will she get darker or stay the softer blue colour?


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

SpringerHusky said:


> There's a blue merle like that down our park without the brown tri patching but he's a much darker blue than Luna.
> 
> Luna is a very soft colour, mind you she's only 12 months at the moment, so will she get darker or stay the softer blue colour?


Her colour will stay the same  They just vary a lot.

Here's April with another tri blue merle (puppy), their colouring is quite different as you can see.










Some are just much darker than others, April is quite pale like Luna


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Very interesting, yes April is the exact same colour as Luna 

I'm finding them more and more fascinating as a breed :biggrin:

Shame I can't smuggle Luna for myself


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Not helpful, just confusing.


I thought the photos accompanied by the precise description of what colour they were, were extremely clear?

Perhaps this one is simpler to understand?

Colours & Markings - Lee Bear Border Collies


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> I thought the photos accompanied by the precise description of what colour they were, were extremely clear?
> 
> Perhaps this one is simpler to understand?
> 
> Colours & Markings - Lee Bear Border Collies


Helps a little but not much.

It didn't explain or really show the difference between blue and salte which is why I asked on here instead for border collie experts.

Pictures just confused me with no real explication.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I find colour genetics very confusing, especially when there are so many combinations such as in the BC. I just know I like what I like! I like merles but they have to be a darker merle rather than a light one.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Leanne77 said:


> I find colour genetics very confusing, especially when there are so many combinations such as in the BC. I just know I like what I like! I like merles but they have to be a darker merle rather than a light one.


I'm very easily confused so still just trying to grasp the colour differences and genetics to how they work but is very fascinating to learn :lol:


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> I thought the photos accompanied by the precise description of what colour they were, were extremely clear?
> 
> Perhaps this one is simpler to understand?
> 
> Colours & Markings - Lee Bear Border Collies


Sorry you didn't find my post clear enough that you've had to link a few other pages


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

PennyGC said:


> Sorry you didn't find my post clear enough that you've had to link a few other pages


Found yours much clearer than some website link posted


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

Merle patterning depends very much on the individual dog... without the merle gene they'd all have the solid base colour - so where they're grey/black would all be black. The merle gene has varying effects on the base colour - so can leave the coat dark with little merling or light with a lot of merling.

This is Ski's mother, Echo, and another of Ski, they're quite similarly marked.

















Merling can also affect eye colour - sometimes parts of the eye are affected...neither of Ski's eyes are affected by merle and eyesight isn't affected, merely the colour.
It's a terrible idea though to mate two merle dogs - pups inheriting both genes (one from each parent) can have sight and hearing problems. Eyes may be very small. One gene (so one merle parent) doesn't adversely affect the pups. Merle is a dominant gene and is not 'carried' although some dogs only show a tiny effect so may be assumed not to be merle.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Helps a little but not much.
> 
> It didn't explain or really show the difference between blue and salte which is why I asked on here instead for border collie experts.
> 
> Pictures just confused me with no real explication.


That link is confusing because they are saying 'red' and 'chocolate' are two different colours, whereas they're the same colour :frown2: so difficult to take too seriously :


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Interesting :thumbup1:

Luna has Blue and Brown in both eyes which I find compliments her coat colour hugely.

Yes, the double/deadly white merles. I must say I love the way the look where white is more dominant and have said before if I saw one in a rescue, i'd be tempted (would never buy from a breeder and I don't mind having a deaf and/or blind dog-just another challenge)

I'd met one after someone bred their red merle to a black tri but what they didn't know because it was just friends breeding their dogs together, was that the black tri's grandfather had been a blue merle so a few of the pups double merled.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> I'd met one after someone bred their red merle to a black tri but what they didn't know because it was just friends breeding their dogs together, was that the black tri's grandfather had been a blue merle so a few of the pups double merled.


Sorry but this is impossible as the merle gene is dominant and CANNOT be carried - the only way for pups to have two merle genes is if BOTH parents are merle...


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

PennyGC said:


> Sorry but this is impossible as the merle gene is dominant and CANNOT be carried - the only way for pups to have two merle genes is if BOTH parents are merle...


Interesting, wonder what happened there.

It was just what they told me had happened :lol:


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

Tri, brown and dilute can pop out in 'unexpected' places as these are all recessive... but not merle


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Interesting, wonder what happened there.
> 
> It was just what they told me had happened :lol:


Well, I guess either the bitch was mated by two dogs (one tri and one merle) or they realised they'd made a 'mistake' by putting two merle dogs together and were trying to make out it was a 'genuine mistake' that wasn't due to their error... OR the dog they thought was tri was actually merle (it can be expressed in a very tiny part of the dog, under the ear, on the eye.. they may not have noticed it... particularly if one of that dog's parents was merle.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

PennyGC said:


> Tri, brown and dilute can pop out in 'unexpected' places as these are all recessive... but not merle


Ahh



PennyGC said:


> Well, I guess either the bitch was mated by two dogs (one tri and one merle) or they realised they'd made a 'mistake' by putting two merle dogs together and were trying to make out it was a 'genuine mistake' that wasn't due to their error... OR the dog they thought was tri was actually merle (it can be expressed in a very tiny part of the dog, under the ear, on the eye.. they may not have noticed it... particularly if one of that dog's parents was merle.


Very interesting, I have seen a black and white collie before with blue merle patch on his leg. He was a rescue, a stray and just marked him as a collie x but the apparent dad to the litter was only a year old, so about says it all about them


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

Luna is definately a tri blue merle, which is the base colour of black with the merle gene altering some of the coat to make the mottled pattern, the nose is black and she has black patches, she's also got the 2 copies of the recessive tri gene to get the tan markings.

A slate merle is when the dog also has the 2 copies of the dilute gene to dilute the coat to the slatey grey colour, so the nose is grey and the patches of solid colour are grey. It is the merle gene acting on a blue coat, but blue merle was already called blue merle, so the diluted colour was called slate merle (sometimes blue/white dogs are called slate/white which probably is a better description and would stop so much of the confusion with blue merle and slate merle).

Here's a pic of my Skye (blue/white) with her mum and most of her brothers and sisters, the 1 laying down at the front is a tri slate merle (it's not easy to see in the pic his blue nose, but you can see his solid patches are grey not black) and there are a few blue merles (1 tri) (you can see the darker black solid patches they have).









Here's Skye's blue nose, showing the dilute colouring of a blue/slate nose.









A dog only needs 1 copy of the merle gene to be merle, if merle is mated to merle (sable and ee red can mask merle, so unless known their genetic makeup, they should be considered merle) then a double merle can result causing eye sight (can even be missing eyes) and hearing problems (quite often totally deaf). Merle is a dominant gene, so if they have the merle gene it will show (unless sable or ee red which masks all other colours), sometimes the merle patch is only small though, so can be hard to find (Kryptic merle).


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

How very complicated. When I had collies it was much simpler. They were either black and white, red and white, tri or merle. No one seemed to bother about the finer points.

Same with coloured horses, they were either skewbald or piebald but now some breeders are adding genetic colours too.

I think I will stick with the basic colours, at least everyone will understand what I am on about then :biggrin:


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

Blitz said:


> How very complicated. When I had collies it was much simpler. They were either black and white, red and white, tri or merle. No one seemed to bother about the finer points.
> 
> Same with coloured horses, they were either skewbald or piebald but now some breeders are adding genetic colours too.
> 
> I think I will stick with the basic colours, at least everyone will understand what I am on about then :biggrin:


So what colour would you call the dog on the left, she's obviously not black/white if you compare her to the dog on the right?!


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## genna ann (Dec 8, 2008)

I aint no expert, i just adore collies.

I would think of her as a tri merle but what do i know?

I DO know u have one gorgeous collie baby and i would just be proud and not so hung up on tags.

Shes beautiful, just accept that.

I have a dotty black and white and a tri, people are always asking me what they are crossed with lol.

I dont care, i have the best 2 collies i ever had :biggrin:


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Oenoke-Thank you, those are some amazing dogs and I can see what you mean, this is the first pic i've seen with blue and slate together and can visually now see the difference better :thumbup1:



genna ann said:


> I aint no expert, i just adore collies.
> 
> I would think of her as a tri merle but what do i know?
> 
> ...


She's actually not mine, she belongs to my neighbors and I get to dog sit her.

I'm just fascinated with dogs as a whole and learning about breeds is a huge and major fascinating thing (I was the kid that grew up on dog breed books most of my life :lol: ) so having the chance to learn more, i'll take it with open arms.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Oenoke said:


>


I love the dog at the back with the very white face. What a gorgeous collection of collies!


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

PennyGC said:


> That link is confusing because they are saying 'red' and 'chocolate' are two different colours, whereas they're the same colour :frown2: so difficult to take too seriously :


I thought the same! It made me doubt my BC genetics for a minute  

I love BC genetics, I did so much reading and learning about them before I got Arrow... it is so interesting!


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

yes, odd that they're posting about 'red' and 'chocolate' as if they're different - showing the same colouring but not explaining... red, brown and chocolate are all the same unless it's 'true' red or Australian red in which case it's the yellowy red colour and is totally different ;-)


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## sweetcharity (Feb 21, 2012)

I dont know which she is lol ,but i loves her!!


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