# Once again the clique



## Pardalis

is given preference and anyone else's debate gets curtailed. I guess my only chance for a conversation would be to agree to something I don't believe in. 

Funny how the right to give an opinion gets given to a select few. Actually, not funny at all. Very sad in fact.


----------



## Guest

I should think that comparing people who dont agree with your views with Hitler and the eugenic's is a normal reaction to a discussion to you?

Either way its to late at night for me to really care.


----------



## canuckjill

It was because of your references that the thread was closed... not preferential treatment I tend to be pretty unbiased......


----------



## Pardalis

I stand by the eugenics point only. 

Anyway - as you were. I don't suppose anyone will stop doing the harm that they are doing for people looking for advice


----------



## canuckjill

well hopefully the thread by Tanya 1989 will help have a look at it maybe you have something you could add
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-bree...out-pregnant-cats-information-collection.html
its for pedigree and moggies


----------



## havoc

Godwin's Law - had to happen sometime I suppose.


----------



## Pardalis

havoc said:


> Godwin's Law - had to happen sometime I suppose.


Where do I claim my prize?!!!

Seriously though, I hate bullies. There's a story behind all of us, and not always a happy one.

I'll add my thoughts to the main pregnancy thread


----------



## havoc

It is generally accepted that the person who brings it into a discussion has lost the argument.


----------



## Mese

I dont think it had anything to do with there being a clique 
To be fair your thread was very aggressive in tone , it was a given it would be closed 

If you want your threads to remain open try not insulting everyone , maybe then people would be willing to listen to your opinion and not just dismiss you


----------



## MatildaG

It was also the first time I've ever seen someone insult the appearance of someone's cats on here - something I, as a cat lover, could never do.


----------



## Guest

What I obviously dont understand is...

If someone does not share you view on breeding moggies and clogging up rescues, putting a cat at risk for no real reason and risking health problems in kittens then they are part of the eugenic movement? 

Its not about breeding from the prettiest its about health and welfare. Since when is it okay to pump litters out of any animal without real homes for them to go to?

I would have no problem with moggie breeding if it was done correctly and there were health tests out there to be done. Sadly we see it on here and they dont know if the dads some illness riddled stray or next doors handsome Siamese cat. 

I have 3 moggies, 1 is very ill with genetic problems which cause allergies and skin problems. Like I enjoy seeing him with his lip so swollen he cant eat or with patches of fur pulled out and red lumps all over his body. :glare:


----------



## Shayden

i dont think any1 has ever disputed that health tests should be done on all cats regardless of pedigree if they are to be bread from!

but at the same time... if someone came on here and said i breed moggies and i do all the things a pedigree breeder does and i abide by the gccf guidelines etc they would still be ridiculed!

in the same breath pedigree breeders are telling people to go to the rspca and get a moggie but at the same time these cats are not health tested and because of that you can get a cute kitten with serious ilnesses which maybe someone doesnt want to have to deal with.... this is after all the reason why breeders health test their cats tho isnt it!

just a thought.... Maybe if some or all the breeders we have out here reduced the amount of litters they have every year or maybe stopped breeding all together then people would be more inclined to go to these shelters and "save a cats life" 

you cant have it both ways!


----------



## Guest

Shayden said:


> but at the same time... if someone came on here and said i breed moggies and i do all the things a pedigree breeder does and i abide by the gccf guidelines etc they would still be ridiculed!


That is not true at all. Most of the pedigree owners on this site have at least 1 moggie. The issue is not with the breed of cat but the "ethics" behind the litter. People let their female out to have a litter with who knows what, and puts their cat at risk for the sake of a cute little litter.

If they tested, went to a tested stud (instead of any old cat) and raised the litter correctly (I have been to many moggie births and have seen them being fed on all sorts and in poor condition.

I myself have no problem with moggie breeding if done correctly and with vetted homes for the litter to go to.

My 3 moggies.....did I get vetted? Questioned? Did they even ask for my name? No.....I just went, they gave me the cat, I gave them the money and off we went.


----------



## Shayden

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR POST... but


what im saying is.... to quite afew breeders (not all so plz dont jump on me) its still a moggy, its still just a domestic cat! ... and people would then say "even though they are heath checked etc bred properly WHY are you breeding them nowing that there are .... thousands if not hundreds of thousand of cats that are put to sleep because suitable homes cant be found!.... heath testing and ethical breeding aside people would still say your adding to a anready bad problem!

there is more than one issue here! 

as i said before... maybe if all these pedigree breeders would stop breeding then there would be a higher demand for other cats and kittens who are in desperate need of a home! 


as i said.... you cant have it both ways


----------



## Guest

Shayden said:


> I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR POST... but
> 
> what im saying is.... to quite afew breeders (not all so plz dont jump on me) its still a moggy, its still just a domestic cat! ... and people would then say "even though they are heath checked etc bred properly WHY are you breeding them nowing that there are .... thousands if not hundreds of thousand of cats that are put to sleep because suitable homes cant be found!.... heath testing and ethical breeding aside people would still say your adding to a anready bad problem!
> 
> there is more than one issue here!
> 
> as i said before... maybe if all these pedigree breeders would stop breeding then there would be a higher demand for other cats and kittens who are in desperate need of a home!
> 
> as i said.... you cant have it both ways


IF pedigree breeders stopped breeding whole lines would die out. We have looked into this with dog breeding (staffs and other over populated breeds) and good lines would die out because the bitch would become to old to take a litter from.

Not only that but a rescue cat isnt for everyone.

IF moggie breeders made it clear that no cat should be rehomed unless it comes back to them first then alot less moggies would end up in rescues. Many pedigree breeders have a contact (although not legally binding) saying that in the event of re-homing the cat must come back to them. Hence why more pedigree cats dont end up in rescues, because the breeder is willing to take back all their cats and rehome them correctly or keep them.


----------



## JANICE199

shetlandlover said:


> That is not true at all. Most of the pedigree owners on this site have at least 1 moggie. The issue is not with the breed of cat but the "ethics" behind the litter. People let their female out to have a litter with who knows what, and puts their cat at risk for the sake of a cute little litter.
> 
> If they tested, went to a tested stud (instead of any old cat) and raised the litter correctly (I have been to many moggie births and have seen them being fed on all sorts and in poor condition.
> 
> I myself have no problem with moggie breeding if done correctly and with vetted homes for the litter to go to.
> 
> My 3 moggies.....did I get vetted? Questioned? Did they even ask for my name? No.....I just went, they gave me the cat, I gave them the money and off we went.


*Have i read this right? You paid for cats that were not health tested? Going by your post its sounds like you are saying that they should be tested and only buy from ethical breeders.But a breeder that can't be botherd as to what sort of home their cats/dogs go to aren't what i understand to be ethical.*


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *Have i read this right? You paid for cats that were not health tested? Going by your post its sounds like you are saying that they should be tested and only buy from ethical breeders.But a breeder that can't be botherd as to what sort of home their cats/dogs go to aren't what i understand to be ethical.*


Yes exactly. 
My cats are not tested nor were their parents. I grew up with moggies so when I got my own place I went and got my cats. Although kept in good conditions their breeders really could not have given a crap. I still went ahead and got them. I accept I funded bad breeding ethics. Which is the exact reason I believe moggies should not be bred unless done correctly!

I have yet to meet a moggie breeder who tests their cats and writes up a contract asking for the cats back if there are any problems.


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> IF pedigree breeders stopped breeding whole lines would die out. We have looked into this with dog breeding (staffs and other over populated breeds) and good lines would die out because the bitch would become to old to take a litter from.
> 
> Not only that but a rescue cat isnt for everyone.
> 
> IF moggie breeders made it clear that no cat should be rehomed unless it comes back to them first then alot less moggies would end up in rescues. Many pedigree breeders have a contact (although not legally binding) saying that in the event of re-homing the cat must come back to them. Hence why more pedigree cats dont end up in rescues, because the breeder is willing to take back all their cats and rehome them correctly or keep them.


When I was a kid pedigree cats were a rarity!


----------



## havoc

> in the same breath pedigree breeders are telling people to go to the rspca and get a moggie but at the same time these cats are not health tested


Absoloutely not true. The RSPCA snap tests all incoming cats for FeLV/FIV, or at least the centre close to me does so I can only assume it's a nationwide policy.


----------



## loz83

I understand the need for health tests in cats, as I had a male which had to be PTS last year 

He was diagnosed with HCM (htpertrophic cardiomyopathy, thickening of the heart muscle) about 3 years ago (He was a moggie, from a farm cat) and had been on medication ever since. Luckily, at that point I was with the PDSA, and therefore didn't have to pay over £500 for his diagnosis.

I knew something was wrong when he would just lay on the floor and foam and the mouth panting and yowling, I knew there was something very wrong.

He went downhill very fast last year, within a matter of days. He stopped jumping on the work surface, and even fell off one of the chairs. One morning I got up to find him laid on the floor yowling in pain, his back legs were stiff and he couldn't move 

I had him straight in at the vets, and she said that *rigormortis* had set in in his legs due to a blood clot and he was in a lot of pain 

I took the decision to have him PTS, although we could try some medication, the vet advised me the success rate was only around 10 %, and it wouldn't last very long anyway. He was only 8 and a half 

I know this is common in many breeds of cat, but it is also, from my experience, also in x-breeds of cats. Also it usually only affects male cats, my mum has his sister from the same litter and she is absolutely fine.


----------



## colliemerles

_loz i am really sorry to hear that about your cat,  that must of been so very upsetting for you, to see your poor little cat go through that._


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

MatildaG said:


> It was also the first time I've ever seen someone insult the appearance of someone's cats on here - something I, as a cat lover, could never do.


Awww my mushmush took one for the team. He's certainly gre into his face since that pic, but he still toes the line of so squooshed and ugly he becomes insanely cute. I love him. He got neutered today, I panicked all day til the vet called to say all was well!

Some cats aren't to my taste, and I know my preferred breed aren't to other peoples tastes. I would never insult a cats appearance as it's very petty and in my opinion each cat is cute in it's own way! Even that poor cat with no ears or nose, 

Edit to add, despite the health problems associated with extreme Persians and exotics, as I bought him from a reputable breeder he has zero breathing difficulties and his airways are as good as a normal faced cat. This is because of the chosen pairings and good breeding practises over their 25 years. Even their more extreme faced cats are of the same health!


----------



## Mese

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Awww my mushmush took one for the team. He's certainly gre into his face since that pic, but he still toes the line of so squooshed and ugly he becomes insanely cute. I love him. He got neutered today, I panicked all day til the vet called to say all was well!
> 
> Some cats aren't to my taste, and I know my preferred breed aren't to other peoples tastes. I would never insult a cats appearance as it's very petty and in my opinion each cat is cute in it's own way! Even that poor cat with no ears or nose,
> 
> Edit to add, despite the health problems associated with extreme Persians and exotics, as I bought him from a reputable breeder he has zero breathing difficulties and his airways are as good as a normal faced cat. This is because of the chosen pairings and good breeding practises over their 25 years. Even their more extreme faced cats are of the same health!


Well I can safely say im a Mushroom fan , he's a sweetie


----------



## Guest

I love exotics....they were a breed we were considering for a long time but only in the future. I love them and pugs...must be something about a flat face that melts my heart.

Mushroom is beautiful.


----------



## 2lisa2

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Awww my mushmush took one for the team. He's certainly gre into his face since that pic, but he still toes the line of so squooshed and ugly he becomes insanely cute. I love him. He got neutered today, I panicked all day til the vet called to say all was well!
> 
> Some cats aren't to my taste, and I know my preferred breed aren't to other peoples tastes. I would never insult a cats appearance as it's very petty and in my opinion each cat is cute in it's own way! Even that poor cat with no ears or nose,
> 
> Edit to add, despite the health problems associated with extreme Persians and exotics, as I bought him from a reputable breeder he has zero breathing difficulties and his airways are as good as a normal faced cat. This is because of the chosen pairings and good breeding practises over their 25 years. Even their more extreme faced cats are of the same health!


well i think mushroom is very beautifull indeed


----------



## Kitty_pig

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Awww my mushmush took one for the team. He's certainly gre into his face since that pic, but he still toes the line of so squooshed and ugly he becomes insanely cute. I love him. He got neutered today, I panicked all day til the vet called to say all was well!
> 
> Some cats aren't to my taste, and I know my preferred breed aren't to other peoples tastes. I would never insult a cats appearance as it's very petty and in my opinion each cat is cute in it's own way! Even that poor cat with no ears or nose,
> 
> Edit to add, despite the health problems associated with extreme Persians and exotics, as I bought him from a reputable breeder he has zero breathing difficulties and his airways are as good as a normal faced cat. This is because of the chosen pairings and good breeding practises over their 25 years. Even their more extreme faced cats are of the same health!


Who insulted mushroom? He is beautiful! I already have one moggy and am about to get another moggy. I didn't know anything about health testing until I came on here but it is something I will certainly look into for new kitty.

My next door neighbour used to have a ginger persion and he had alsorts of health problems  he never took him to the vet and left him out while they went on holiday for a week  We took him in and looked after him, even paid for treatment at the vet for him, he died a few months later 

All cats are beautiful and deserve to be loved and cared for. I know some people wont like the fact that I have moggies rather than pedigrees, but I can't please everyone and at least my cats are and will be well loved and cared for. I'd imagine some moggies who have health issues can end up costing just as much as pedigree cats. swings and roundabouts.


----------



## Sacrechat

I have moggies and pedigree Birmans. I love all cats no matter what breed and I have Birmans, admittedly, because I love the way they look, that does not mean I find any other cat ugly. No cat is ugly in my eyes. All cats have wonderful personalities in their own way. I treat my moggies the same as my Birmans. All are insured, they all have what I believe to be the best. I will always have both pedigree and non-pedigree cats. I don't agree that pedigrees should not be bred. I would hate to see any breed die out because that is what would happen. There will always be people who want pedigrees and people who want moggies. We should have the right to choose.


----------



## loz83

colliemerles said:


> _loz i am really sorry to hear that about your cat,  that must of been so very upsetting for you, to see your poor little cat go through that._


It was awful, and i still miss him, he was like a permanent fixture around here  even though I knew it would happen, it was still very quick, as previous to that you wouldn't have even known there was anything wrong with him, il try put a pic on of him 

managed to find some of my other cats too 








This is firebolt, my big boy with HCM, and Neelix is with him, he died as a kitten due to anti-freeze poisoning (the vets were too slow to diagnose, even though I found out later that another cat from across the road was in with the same thing  dint let my other cat out after that, there were 5 died within a few months, and we were all neighbours 









This is fidget as a kitten when I got her (she was 8 weeks ) but she was very well adjusted, and very lovely, she's just over a year old now 









This is fidget now  she's a little beauty 









This is one of my favourites , she helped skittle clean herself up and then went to sleep with her after she had the kittens


----------



## Shayden

come on u guys.... she called the cat ugly.... ur acting like she called your child or your mother ugly.... lets stop with the dramatics now!


----------



## Mese

Shayden said:


> come on u guys.... she called the cat ugly.... ur acting like she called your child or your mother ugly.... lets stop with the dramatics now!


Some of us see our animals as family , and would defend them just as much as we would any other members of our family


----------



## Guest

Many breeds of dog are not to my taste look wise but they are not ugly! And to be honest on a petforum its not something that should be said!

People are on here for the love of their animals not to be told they are ugly.:glare:


----------



## catsmum

Shayden said:


> come on u guys.... she called the cat ugly.... ur acting like she called your child or your mother ugly.... lets stop with the dramatics now!


its got nothing to do with dramatics
its got everything to do with manners

its just plain rude to call someone's cat ugly

even if that someone is someone who has given you a hard time in posts these past few days, that still doesnt mean you should condone people slagging her cat off as ugly


----------



## Guest

catsmum said:


> its got nothing to do with dramatics
> its got everything to do with manners
> 
> its just plain rude to call someone's cat ugly
> 
> even if that someone is someone who has given you a hard time in posts these past few days, that still doesnt mean you should condone people slagging her cat off as ugly


Thinking about it, I wonder what reaction someone would get going onto other forums with that attitude.

Car forum - Your cars ugly...I am sure the lads on there would be polite about it (sarcasm).

Mum and baby forum - Your baby's ugly........

Dog forum (I can pretty much say how it would be if someone called someones dog ugly).

I am sure if you went into a gardening forum and said their garden was ugly they would get pretty annoyed too!

You do not call someones love, life and joy (made of metal, skin or other) its just not the way its done.
Even if you think its ugly, its not your place to say! Its manners and basic people skills.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Mushmush says thanks for the compliments. He was a bit sad being called ugly and losing his manhood in one day, but your compliments, and the insane zooplus order I just made (including some gourmet animonda ostrich, buffalo and kangaroo) have cheered him right up 

Love and food are all he needs. And sleep.... and cuddles...


----------



## catsmum

shetlandlover said:


> Thinking about it, I wonder what reaction someone would get going onto other forums with that attitude.
> 
> Car forum - Your cars ugly...I am sure the lads on there would be polite about it (sarcasm).
> 
> Mum and baby forum - Your baby's ugly........
> 
> Dog forum (I can pretty much say how it would be if someone called someones dog ugly).
> 
> I am sure if you went into a gardening forum and said their garden was ugly they would get pretty annoyed too!
> 
> You do not call someones love, life and joy (made of metal, skin or other) its just not the way its done.
> Even if you think its ugly, its not your place to say! Its manners and basic people skills.


i think shayden is just a little sore at gloworm after gloworm got the better of her a few times yesterday

still not right to attack the cat just because you dont like what the owner says. thats just below the belt


----------



## Kitty_pig

shetlandlover said:


> Thinking about it, I wonder what reaction someone would get going onto other forums with that attitude.
> 
> Car forum - Your cars ugly...I am sure the lads on there would be polite about it (sarcasm).
> 
> Mum and baby forum - Your baby's ugly........
> 
> Dog forum (I can pretty much say how it would be if someone called someones dog ugly).
> 
> I am sure if you went into a gardening forum and said their garden was ugly they would get pretty annoyed too!
> 
> You do not call someones love, life and joy (made of metal, skin or other) its just not the way its done.
> Even if you think its ugly, its not your place to say! Its manners and basic people skills.


as my nan wud say if you cant say something nice dont say anything at all x


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

If you are annoyed at me, please feel free to call me unnatural and unfortunate looking, not my cat


----------



## Guest

gloworm*mushroom said:


> If you are annoyed at me, please feel free to call me unnatural and unfortunate looking, not my cat


Un-impressed dog.......










I must admit some of this forum has gone to pot recently....compairing pedigree breeders to hitler....calling other people's cats ugly............its just so...petty!


----------



## Kitty_pig

shetlandlover said:


> Un-impressed dog.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I must admit some of this forum has gone to pot recently....compairing pedigree breeders to hitler....calling other people's cats ugly............its just so...petty!


awwwww he/she does not look at all impressed xxx


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Mush wants me to show him at his best:

Being a cabbit:









The comfiest of sleeping places:


















And his favourite method of transportation:


----------



## Mese

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Mush wants me to show him at his best:
> 
> Being a cabbit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The comfiest of sleeping places:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And his favourite method of transportation:


I repeat , he's such a sweetheart , his fur looks soooo soft and strokable


----------



## Guest

Kitty_pig said:


> awwwww he/she does not look at all impressed xxx


He's a happy boy really.....










Just doesnt like the flash on the camera! Hahaha.

Anyway, on subject......

No animal is ugly imo. And certainly its no ones place to say its ugly.


----------



## Kitty_pig

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Mush wants me to show him at his best:
> 
> Being a cabbit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The comfiest of sleeping places:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And his favourite method of transportation:


I'm actually in love :001_wub:


----------



## Guest

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Mush wants me to show him at his best:
> 
> Being a cabbit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The comfiest of sleeping places:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And his favourite method of transportation:


Stop!!! You know I love them!!!!!! So beautiful.


----------



## Mese

shetlandlover said:


> He's a happy boy really.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just doesnt like the flash on the camera! Hahaha.
> 
> Anyway, on subject......
> 
> No animal is ugly imo. And certainly its no ones place to say its ugly.


Gorgeous face , cutsey dog 

btw I disagree , ants are evil and ugly and MUST be destroyed :thumbsup:


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

shetlandlover said:


> He's a happy boy really.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just doesnt like the flash on the camera! Hahaha.
> 
> Anyway, on subject......
> 
> No animal is ugly imo. And certainly its no ones place to say its ugly.


Stunning pup shot! I can never get 'good' nice quality pics of my pets.

While we're at it, here's my other unnatural unfortunate exotic,Glorworm. He is more long faced:

Mucky face at 14 weeks:










Sleepy kitteh:










Excuse the messy backdrop! Most recent










And my fave pic of the two of them, not at all posed, totally natural shot!:


----------



## Guest

Mese said:


> btw I disagree , ants are evil and ugly and MUST be destroyed :thumbsup:


Okay...wasps and spiders too.


----------



## Guest

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Stunning pup shot! I can never get 'good' nice quality pics of my pets.
> 
> While we're at it, here's my other unnatural unfortunate exotic,Glorworm. He is more long faced:
> 
> Mucky face at 14 weeks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sleepy kitteh:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse the messy backdrop! Most recent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And my fave pic of the two of them, not at all posed, totally natural shot!:


OMG stop please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My OH even said they are both cute.

Dont be local to me.....otherwise you may find me in your house with meow sounds coming from under my jumper.:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> Okay...wasps and spiders too.


I would NEVER ever kill a spider! I like them! but I admit to killing wasps and flies!


----------



## loz83

not a good idea for me to have one of those, id want to smush its face up to mine all the time, and i'm sure the cat wouldn't particularly like that


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would NEVER ever kill a spider! I like them! but I admit to killing wasps and flies!


Can you come live with me then? Me and my OH are scared to death of spiders. We argue over whos going to kill it.


----------



## loz83

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would NEVER ever kill a spider! I like them! but I admit to killing wasps and flies!


I hate spiders but i dont kill em, my 10 year old daughter gets them outta the house/bath for me


----------



## NoSpecialFeaturesHere

shetlandlover said:


> I must admit some of this forum has gone to pot recently


 When I first joined this forum one of the first threads I read was someone who worked in rescue asking why people chose not to spay or neuter their pets. She was jumped on and attacked like a poor little gazelle being torn apart by savage carnivores. It was shocking. And exactly why I've never stuck around here for long until just lately.

I do think that, in general, the members here are much more polite than they were a couple of years ago... Most of you anyway! 

I wish everyone would remember that, while it's fine to disagree with someone, it's not okay to insult people _because _you disagree with them. As well as being unnecessarily rude, it's also in no way effective if you're genuinely aiming to get your point across (as opposed to just wanting to start an argument.) If you want to share your opinion and have any hope of swaying someone into seeing your side and considering what you're saying, it's better to show yourself in a good light and make people want to listen to you. If you insult someone who disagrees with you for disagreeing with you, it's just going to reinforce in their minds the fact that they're right to disagree with you.

If someone knows this and yet chooses to continue to be rude or nasty to others regardless, then it would just imply that they care more about the arguing part of the argument than the issue they're arguing for/against. Which is a right shame.


----------



## suzy93074

Regardless of whether we disagree with things on the forum there is no need for anyone to call someone elses cat ugly - thats going too far imo....we all have different tastes in what breeds we prefer - if we dislike a breed then fair enough but lets not start stooping to levels of saying they are ugly!


----------



## Guest

I think we all agree that being rude and insulting is no way to approach a discussion. Or a forum for that matter.

The thing is we are all adults, we have difference of opinion but theres no need to (for example) call people's cats ugly or compare pedigree breeders to hitler.

Its a forum of animal lovers, its bound to get heated but theres a line not to cross and personal insults is over the line.


----------



## Aurelia

Gloworm and Mushroom tell your mummy I would LOVE to photograph both of you one day  :001_wub:


----------



## MatildaG

Gloworm and Mushroom are GORGE! I also love the name Mushroom! x


----------



## Shayden

catsmum said:


> its got nothing to do with dramatics
> its got everything to do with manners
> 
> its just plain rude to call someone's cat ugly
> 
> even if that someone is someone who has given you a hard time in posts these past few days, that still doesnt mean you should condone people slagging her cat off as ugly


i didnt say i condone rudeness or did i say it was right!... but if thats her opinion then so be it. beauty is in the eye of the beholder wether it b cat, dog or human and if she doesnt find ur cat attractive then o well... its not her cat, shes not the one taking care of it or has loved it for most of her life. that doesnt mean yall arnt over doing it now!...

:glare:


----------



## Shayden

catsmum said:


> i think shayden is just a little sore at gloworm after gloworm got the better of her a few times yesterday
> 
> still not right to attack the cat just because you dont like what the owner says. thats just below the belt


dont be ridiculous! were all grown adults here (or at least most of us are) we had a disagreement! the end! its people like you being patronising and trying to get your two pence in when it is neither needed or constructive is the reason y there is so much anomosity on this site!


----------



## lizward

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would NEVER ever kill a spider! I like them!


So do I

Liz


----------



## Shayden

and for the record... insted of jumping on my back because i dont consider calling some1s cat ugly to be the end of the world, i would like to add that i have never nor will never disrespect someone in that manner by calling their pet ugly!... each to there own

then you guys wonder why newbies see a trend when they come onto this forum and dont even bother to type or speak up for fear of reprisal! instead of crying over what some1 said about another persons cat, worry more about your own actions and what comes out of your own mouth/fingers

the things ive seen some of you say and how vicious and counterproductive it can be is astounding. if only some of you took the time to be as nice and loving to your fellow man as well as your beloved cat it would make for a better world indeed


----------



## Aurelia

Shayden said:


> and for the record... insted of jumping on my back because i dont consider calling some1s cat ugly to be the end of the world, i would like to add that i have never nor will never disrespect someone in that manner by calling their pet ugly!... each to there own
> 
> then you guys wonder why newbies see a trend when they come onto this forum and dont even bother to type or speak up for fear of reprisal! instead of crying over what some1 said about another persons cat, worry more about your own actions and what comes out of your own mouth/fingers
> 
> the things ive seen some of you say and how vicious and counterproductive it can be is astounding. if only some of you took the time to be as nice and loving to your fellow man as well as your beloved cat it would make for a better world indeed


Ha! Pot, kettle & black spring to mind


----------



## Alaskacat

OOh ten year old girls are so cool these days, my 10 year old daughter deals with my spiders too. I had to put a spider out with a cup and paper last week as she was at school and it was right on the door. I squealed so loudly and dropped it that a passer by stared at me, all I could say is my daughter normally deals with spiders for me. The spider was fine and ran away to terrorise someone else by the way.

I'm surprised a cat lover would call a cat that looks like a cat ugly, not the best photo though perhaps, Mushroom is gorgeous and deserves better representation on your signature


----------



## loz83

my 19 year old brother actually shouted for my daughter to sort a spider when we were at my mums pmsl :lol:

He's 6 foot tall and asking a 10 year old to get a spider for him, that was the funniest thing id heard in a while :lol:


----------



## Taylorbaby

you shouldnt hate spiders, they kill flys, which are the dirtiest scum kill flies not spiders! :nono:


----------



## XxZoexX

I agree with that, always leave spiders as i detest flys.


----------



## loz83

thats why i dont kill em, and if they're in the corner of the ceiling out the way i leave em to it 

just dont want em running round on the floor, or anywhere near me lol

or in the bath :lol:


----------



## XxZoexX

I only worry if there on my bedroom ceiling.. dont want the bungeeing into my mouth ewww
Have to say Jacks fascinated by creepy crawlies atm


----------



## Taylorbaby

lol, I hated them as a kid, but only because my mum was scared, but now I dont care, if I see one Im like 'if it isnt hurting me...Ill leave it to it!'

BUT If they are very big... Then I feel a bit sick and ask the partner who also wont touch it!

never kill them though  only scared looking for a home / food etc


----------



## XxZoexX

The ones that make me shudder are them with tiny tiny bodys and really long legs.. Dont like daddy long legs either.. but wont kill them


----------



## Taylorbaby

XxZoexX said:


> The ones that make me shudder are them with tiny tiny bodys and really long legs.. Dont like daddy long legs either.. but wont kill them


lol small bodies Ewwwwwwwwwww!

I just cup my hand and put daddy longlets outside, they are odd little things! :blink:


----------



## XxZoexX

Oh i cant touch them, Its the fluttering thing.. Though i love butterflys and have been to a butterly farm with them all around me im just strange.
Oooh and pigeons cant walk through them incase they flutter around me


----------



## dagny0823

canuckjill said:


> well hopefully the thread by Tanya 1989 will help have a look at it maybe you have something you could add
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-bree...out-pregnant-cats-information-collection.html
> its for pedigree and moggies


I haven't been on for a week, so I'm just catching up--are Tanya and Aurelia's recent threads attempts to answer the call for education that Gratch had started a few weeks ago to such opposition? Is this the start of the more comprehensive sticky, or just some separate threads that will accomplish much the same end?


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

dagny0823 said:


> I haven't been on for a week, so I'm just catching up--are Tanya and Aurelia's recent threads attempts to answer the call for education that Gratch had started a few weeks ago to such opposition? Is this the start of the more comprehensive sticky, or just some separate threads that will accomplish much the same end?


Well the sticky isn't, and never was, a certainty. If a thread gets made that deserves it, then I imagine it will become one.

The post Aurelia made I feel is due to the fact that inevitably a thread like that was going to be written, whether people liked it or not, so, it was best to come from an experienced and reputable source, which I feel aurelia certainly is.


----------



## canuckjill

dagny0823 said:


> I haven't been on for a week, so I'm just catching up--are Tanya and Aurelia's recent threads attempts to answer the call for education that Gratch had started a few weeks ago to such opposition? Is this the start of the more comprehensive sticky, or just some separate threads that will accomplish much the same end?


Gratch started a really good idea going, and maybe it can eventually be merged together to make sense between all parties...whether it becomes a sticky or not is uncertain, but i do think ideas from all are great be you a pedigree breeder, moggy breeder or whatever, information and education is always good


----------



## Aurelia

canuckjill said:


> *Gratch started a really good idea going*, and maybe it can eventually be merged together to make sense between all parties...whether it becomes a sticky or not is uncertain, but i do think ideas from all are great be you a pedigree breeder, moggy breeder or whatever, information and education is always good


No she didn't :lol: This has been an idea for a long time, perhaps almost a year if not longer.


----------



## lizward

gloworm*mushroom said:


> The post Aurelia made I feel is due to the fact that inevitably a thread like that was going to be written, whether people liked it or not, so, it was best to come from an experienced and reputable source, which I feel aurelia certainly is.


Ah yes, one litter certainly means you have experience.

Liz


----------



## Amethyst

lizward said:


> Ah yes, one litter certainly means you have experience.
> 
> Liz


Personally I wiuld rather see information gathered and put forward a by a caring, ethical breeder with less experinece, than someone with much experience, but who had dubious ethics/haphazard approach. The same would apply with dogs


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Personally I wiuld rather see information gathered and put forward a by a caring, ethical breeder with less experinece, than someone with much experience, but who had dubious ethics/haphazard approach. The same would apply with dogs


Ask would we all


----------



## suzy93074

Amethyst said:


> Personally I wiuld rather see information gathered and put forward a by a caring, ethical breeder with less experinece, than someone with much experience, but who had dubious ethics/haphazard approach. The same would apply with dogs


Whilst I agree that experienced info from experienced people is needed surely as members of the forum we are all within our rights to have a say.....and just because you disagree with members ethics does not mean everyone is going to think the same so why should your ideas and thoughts be adhered to and not another ? why can people not work together?


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> Ah yes, one litter certainly means you have experience.
> 
> Liz


Was that really necessary?


----------



## BSH

lizward said:


> Ah yes, one litter certainly means you have experience.
> 
> Liz


But is there not a difference between knowledge & experience per se?

For example, an analogy: most doctors have never had a heart attack but are very well placed to advise others how to live their lives after having one.

I agree experience can give you knowledge, often very valuable knowledge that is hard to gain elsewhere, but it is not the only way of gaining knowledge.

I am not a breeder, know very little about breeding and have no desire to breed, but I must say that the post I think you refer to is superb in in both its content and intention. The fact that the author may only have bred once, twice or indeed never does not detract form this in my opinion and such valuable posts, which take considerable time & effort to produce, should be applauded and welcomed, not berated surely?

If one disagrees with any of the content in a post there is scope to challenge this in an open and friendly manner and debate issues in the forum. Personal digs are unbecoming to anyone.


----------



## lizward

DoubleTrouble said:


> Was that really necessary?


About as necessary as remarks made about me here all the time - and far less open to dispute.

Liz


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> Ah yes, one litter certainly means you have experience.
> 
> Liz


This is bang out of order......Gratch why did you like this? You want to make a pregnancy thread giving a guide yet you have only had 1 litter too.

I have helped birthing cats around 50+ cat births yet I still feel inexperienced because I dont have to care for them at home.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Perhaps less emphasis on my word 'experiences' and more emphasis on 'trusted' and 'responsible' would be appropriate.


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> About as necessary as remarks made about me here all the time - and far less open to dispute.
> 
> Liz


Perhaps because you generally tend to come across as the only one 'who knows on many occassions!
There is not a man (or woman for that matter) born that knows everything! 
Even them with letters after their names don't know it all!
But more annoyingly to boohoo others input is not an endearing feature!


----------



## shells

i am still a newbiehere, but love this site however i have to admit i find sertain sections to be verry intimadating. 
i do not believe there is such a thing as an uguly animal they are all as they should be it is us humans who can be uguly in how we behave and speak. it is us humans who seem to find the need to improve on looks etc not our beloved animals. so i do not agree with insulting something as purfect as an animal.


----------



## Guest

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Perhaps less emphasis on my word 'experiences' and more emphasis on 'trusted' and 'responsible' would be appropriate.


Exactly. Its not about how many litters you pump out but how you care for them and how they are raised. Ethics are sometimes just as important as experience.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Ill have to say I have seen one ugly cat and it was ugly. It had nothing going in the looks department or maybe it just needed a good dunking in soapy water.

Its been the only cat that hasnt made me go all cute and wanting to pet it.


----------



## lizward

DoubleTrouble said:


> Perhaps because you generally tend to come across as the only one 'who knows on many occassions!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> This is bang out of order......


Right, so me pointing out the FACT (recently stated by Aurelia herself) that Aurelia has bred only one litter is out of order, but the defamatory comments made about me on an almost daily basis are perfectly acceptable. I see. Just as long as we have that one straight.

Liz


----------



## simplysardonic

Taylorbaby said:


> lol small bodies Ewwwwwwwwwww!
> 
> I just cup my hand and put daddy longlets outside, they are odd little things! :blink:


I think they're all cute I don't like killing any of them if I can help it
even flies have their uses with clearing up rotting stuff
even mosquitos are useful (well, the males are as they are pollinators) although I'll give them a slap if they try & feed off me as they bring me up in such a nasty reaction


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> Right, so me pointing out the FACT (recently stated by Aurelia herself) that Aurelia has bred only one litter is out of order, but the defamatory comments made about me on an almost daily basis are perfectly acceptable. I see. Just as long as we have that one straight.
> 
> Liz


Aurelia has been open in how many litters she has had. Yet to use it against her is silly I have noticed with you, you always go on about experience yet the ethics behind a litter speak louder than any numbers.

Would you go to a breeder who:
A) Bred frequently but had questionable ethics..or.
B) Bred now and again but did it all the right way.

I know which I would rather go for.

You cant possibly use the fact she has only had 1 litter against her, She clearly knows what she is talking about and the one litter she has had she raised correctly!


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Right, so me pointing out the FACT (recently stated by Aurelia herself) that Aurelia has bred only one litter is out of order, but the defamatory comments made about me on an almost daily basis are perfectly acceptable. I see. Just as long as we have that one straight.
> 
> Liz


Do you mean the comments I make in retaliation to yours Liz? Or the ones made (though I'm not sure if they are defamatory, as I'm only going by what you have said and made available online yourself ) when you say something that could cost a kitten/queen their lives?


----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> Aurelia has been open in how many litters she has had. Yet to use it against her is silly


I wasn't even addressing her. Someone (was it gloworm?) said that Aurelia was experienced and ethical. She certainly seems to be ethical as far as raising litters is concerned. She is not experienced. That's all. It is not a derogatory comment and it is not open to opinion, it is a simple statement of fact. I really honestly don't understand why saying that one litter does not equal a lot of experience is regarded as some sort of horrible thing to say 

Liz


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Do you mean the comments I make in retaliation to yours Liz? Or the ones made (though I'm not sure if they are defamatory, as I'm only going by what you have said and made available online yourself ) when you say something that could cost a kitten/queen their lives?


I didn't even refer to you as the person making the comments.

Liz


----------



## Bandy

I love the cat forum...

you chicks bicker non stop.

Nothing like a fresh cup of coffee and reading the E-hair pulling to bring a smile to my face.


----------



## simplysardonic

Bandy said:


> I love the cat forum...
> 
> you chicks bicker non stop.
> 
> Nothing like a fresh cup of coffee and reading the E-hair pulling to bring a smile to my face.


had to LOL @ E-hair pulling


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> I wasn't even addressing her. Someone (was it gloworm?) said that Aurelia was experienced and ethical. She certainly seems to be ethical as far as raising litters is concerned. She is not experienced. That's all. It is not a derogatory comment and it is not open to opinion, it is a simple statement of fact. I really honestly don't understand why saying that one litter does not equal a lot of experience is regarded as some sort of horrible thing to say
> 
> Liz


She is experienced imo. Its not about how many litters you have.
Knowing how to care for the animals, knowing about the animals, caring correctly for the animals imo shows experience.

If someone does those things incorrectly they are not experienced. 
She may not have birthing experienced but she is as good a person to write the pregnancy thread as anyone else here if not better.

She knows how to deal with a litter correctly and the thread she wrote in no way was about rasing a litter but how to prevent the litter happening. You cant say you have to have over 10 accidental litters before you can write that surely. Because in that case no one on this forum has any experience to write it.


----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> She is experienced imo. Its not about how many litters you have.
> Knowing how to care for the animals, knowing about the animals, caring correctly for the animals imo shows experience.


Right, perhaps next time any of you applies for a job requiring a certain amount of experience you should try that line. "I am experienced in store management, it's not about how long you've managed a store for, shopping in stores shows experience" :lol:



> the thread she wrote in no way was about rasing a litter but how to prevent the litter happening. You cant say you have to have over 10 accidental litters before you can write that surely. Because in that case no one on this forum has any experience to write it.


TB has already done a thread over why you should neuter your pets. All Aurelia is doing, then, is the same thing again. Well, some of us might just get a thread together dealing with things people actually want to know.

Liz


----------



## Guest

Bandy said:


> I love the cat forum...
> 
> you chicks bicker non stop.
> 
> Nothing like a fresh cup of coffee and reading the E-hair pulling to bring a smile to my face.


Your turn to buy the popcorn mate!


----------



## gladass

lizward said:


> Well, some of us might just get a thread together dealing with things people actually want to know.
> 
> Liz


Now that sounds a good idea, maybe the 1st one could be "How to discover what kitty belongs to what Queen"


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> Right, perhaps next time any of you applies for a job requiring a certain amount of experience you should try that line. "I am experienced in store management, it's not about how long you've managed a store for, shopping in stores shows experience" :lol:
> 
> *So you would go to a dentist who has many clients but does poor work? But not a fairly new dentist who does great work?
> 
> Experience means FA at the end of it all. Some breeders have years of breeding but breed poor quality sick animals so you would rather go to them because they have experience than a newbie who is doing it right and breeding good healthy animals?*
> 
> TB has already done a thread over why you should neuter your pets. All Aurelia is doing, then, is the same thing again. Well, some of us might just get a thread together dealing with things people actually want to know.
> 
> *No Aurelia's post is to show the true risks and costs with breeding. TB's thread is helpful advice on why to spay/neuter. Some people on here dont want to become involved in supporting accidental litters. But hey lets not get into that again.*


My replies are in Bold.


----------



## Bandy

DoubleTrouble said:


> Your turn to buy the popcorn mate!


Im a bit sloppy in my eating habits...but there's plenty!!


----------



## Guest

Bandy said:


> Im a bit sloppy in my eating habits...but there's plenty!!


Please can I have mine in a pretty china bowl


----------



## Bandy

DoubleTrouble said:


> Please can I have mine in a pretty china bowl


Are you kidding? That's my finest serving ware Im eating out of now.


----------



## northnsouth

Bandy said:


> I love the cat forum...
> 
> you chicks bicker non stop.
> 
> Nothing like a fresh cup of coffee and reading the E-hair pulling to bring a smile to my face.


It happens on dog forums too..

One thing I will never understand or like is the....

.... "ethical" breeder who has finished with their studs and breeding bitches ,or queens and toms and need to re home them. Then get new stock to just carry on breeding. Go into the rescues, cat or dog and they are certainly not full of just mongrels or moggies. There are just as many pedigrees chucked out or out lived their uses as the bitzers. But some how we are expected to believe from these pages, that all pure bred, are healthy, fit for purpose , needed and are always homed and wanted and live happily ever after...


----------



## noushka05

not really sure what this threads about cos ive only read the title and the last few posts....so anyways im not in any clique this is the way 'I' feel...and i totally agree with much of what Shetlandlover is saying, sadly experience and good ethics dont always go hand in hand, some of the worst breeders out there will have the most experience simply due to the amount of litters they churn out:glare:....nope ive seen some seriously dodgy breeding practices from 'experienced' breeders both on here and in the real world:tongue_smilie:


----------



## shells

whilst i get everyone feels strongly about there opinions on some subjects i do think once you have given your point of view (whitch every person is entitled to) unless a genuine question is asked all other retorts/replies/arguments should be done in pm this way less threads will be removed and newbies are less likly to think they have entered a battlefeild and run for cover. dont get me wrong if someone is challenged on there point of view they should be defending themselves and no one should be resorting to school playground insults and bullying of course this is just my opinion 
ok am running for cover


----------



## lizward

gladass said:


> Now that sounds a good idea, maybe the 1st one could be "How to discover what kitty belongs to what Queen"


O ha ha ha


----------



## Shayden

lol at all these high purching "experienced ethical breeders" (and pet owners) complaining about so called low blows in comments but not mature enough to stop doing it themselves.

pot, kettle, black i believe someone said to me..........................


look at the state of urselves


----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> My replies are in Bold.


It might help if you quoted properly. Still ...



> So you would go to a dentist who has many clients but does poor work? But not a fairly new dentist who does great work?


I'd have no problem at all going to a new dentist. What I would not expect would be that the new dentist should be writing article in a national dentist's magazine in which she attempts to correct every other dentist in the country. I would not expect, either, that the magazine would accept an article without a list of the qualifications and experience of _anyone_ who writes it.



> Experience means FA at the end of it all. Some breeders have years of breeding but breed poor quality sick animals so you would rather go to them because they have experience than a newbie who is doing it right and breeding good healthy animals?


This isn't about who you buy from, it's about advice.

Liz


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> It might help if you quoted properly. Still ...
> 
> I'd have no problem at all going to a new dentist. What I would not expect would be that the new dentist should be writing article in a national dentist's magazine in which she attempts to correct every other dentist in the country. I would not expect, either, that the magazine would accept an article without a list of the qualifications and experience of _anyone_ who writes it.
> 
> This isn't about who you buy from, it's about advice.
> 
> Liz


Liz ... When it comes to animals you will never stop people from speaking up about their welfare. You don't need qualifications to do that or to be right about doing it.

Like I have said many many times now ... Experience, no matter how much of it you have does NOT mean you're doing it the right way.

It can mean you're stuck in the mud and follow outdated ethics though, and that you become blind to what your doing and wind up filling a 3 bed semi with cats. Those cats then go on to breed at will because the owner can't be bothered to keep them seperate.

The breeder often has a life that is far far different from the one that his/her breeding friends and show companions envisage.

Usually it's a dump of a house with rubbish strewn in the garden, clutter stacked up high in the windows. The house most likely stinks of cat poo and wee ... and I dread to think what the rest of the house looks like inside.

Usually people going to buy kittens from these breeders are guilt tripped into taking the kittens as a mercy mission, just to 'save' them from the horrors they live in 

You read about breeders like this now and again after they get raided.

Are you saying that it takes someone with qualifications to figure out something like this is wrong?


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> It might help if you quoted properly. Still ...
> 
> I'd have no problem at all going to a new dentist. What I would not expect would be that the new dentist should be writing article in a national dentist's magazine in which she attempts to correct every other dentist in the country. I would not expect, either, that the magazine would accept an article without a list of the qualifications and experience of _anyone_ who writes it.
> 
> This isn't about who you buy from, it's about advice.
> 
> Liz


So you do not think she should be writing the thread but you and Gratch should? Gratch has the same experience as Aurelia except Aurelia's done the re-search and ethically raised a litter.

There are other breeders on here that could write the pregnancy guide who have the same (possibly more) experience than yourself and raise litters ethically.

Its not about how many litters you pump out its about how you care for them and how much re-search you do sadly some of the experienced breeders out there I would not buy a cat from let alone take advice from.

The information involved in the thread is only as good as its source. Which is why Aurelia, TB and I believe their user name is tellingtails should be writing it. Between them they are one hell of a group.

Never mind point scoring on how many litters she had/he had/they had. Its about how they are able to care for them.

There are so many amazing cat breeders on this forum....if they all put their mind to it that thread could be amazing. Written by anyone else the thread will not reach its potential not in advice nor in information. A laid back attitude is not something to have in breeding weighing the kittens/pups regularly, keeping the house completely perfect, keeping mother and kittens in a calm environment is a must.

What you need is a book of the bitch but for cats. That way you dont need this thread.


----------



## lymorelynn

Pardalis said:


> is given preference and anyone else's debate gets curtailed. I guess my only chance for a conversation would be to agree to something I don't believe in.
> 
> Funny how the right to give an opinion gets given to a select few. Actually, not funny at all. Very sad in fact.


This is how this thread started. Don't you think, given all the arguments on here, that it's a little ironic? 
I think this thread is a clear indication to the OP that *everyone* has the right to their opinions. But can I ask that you don't make those opinions offensive to others. No progress will be made if this just becomes the usual round of back-biting comments.


----------



## Guest

gladass said:


> Now that sounds a good idea, maybe the 1st one could be "How to discover what kitty belongs to what Queen"


Thats easy! Jeremy Kyle


----------



## Amethyst

suzy93074 said:


> and just because you disagree with members ethics does not mean everyone is going to think the same so why should your ideas and thoughts be adhered to and not another ?


Because anyone with any real concern about cat welfare and breeding would be unlikely to disagree with me


----------



## Shayden

Amethyst said:


> Because anyone with any real concern about cat welfare and breeding would be unlikely to disagree with me


so you way and opinion is right and if anyone disagrees with you they dont have any real concern for cats welfare or breeding


----------



## CAstbury

I fear another locking coming up


----------



## Guest

Shayden said:


> so you way and opinion is right and if anyone disagrees with you they dont have any real concern for cats welfare or breeding


Yep! that about sums it up


----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> So you do not think she should be writing the thread but you and Gratch should? Gratch has the same experience as Aurelia except Aurelia's done the re-search and ethically raised a litter.


Aurelia doesn't wasnt to write a thread about breeding moggies, so what is the argument?



> There are other breeders on here that could write the pregnancy guide who have the same (possibly more) experience than yourself and raise litters ethically.


And I am sure Gratch would be delighted to hear from them



> A laid back attitude is not something to have in breeding weighing the kittens/pups regularly, keeping the house completely perfect, keeping mother and kittens in a calm environment is a must.


You do like making judgments with no evidence, don't you.



> What you need is a book of the bitch but for cats. That way you dont need this thread.


And there are several such books out there, but, oddly enough, people still come here for advice. The difficulty is that most of them leave just as quickly after most of you jump down their throats.

Liz


----------



## lymorelynn

CAstbury said:


> I fear another locking coming up


I fear you may be right  I can't say keep on topic because I don't think this thread has an original topic except to point out that there is a clique here that does not allow the opinions of others to be aired. Are you intent in proving the OP right?


----------



## Bwy39

It is this sort of thread which makes me think again as to my membership of this forum.

Perhaps I should leave and join a "grown up" forum. !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Guest

If I can say a quick word! Perhaps the one that causes world war three!
PErsonally in this economic climate I don't think anyone should be breeding anything!
I am sure those of you that show will say thats a load of b*llshit - but personally I think if there were no pedigree cats nor moggies available people may just go along to the shelters and take on a rescue! If everyone STOPPED breeding for just six month surely it would make a difference ! wouldn't it?


----------



## Guest

Bwy39 said:


> It is this sort of thread which makes me think again as to my membership of this forum.
> 
> Perhaps I should leave and join a "grown up" forum. !!!!!!!!!


Good luck in finding one! I hear the breed specific ones tend to stay on topic!


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> Good luck in finding one! I hear the breed specific ones tend to stay on topic!


But aren't so much fun


----------



## Guest

The whole thing with internet forums and actually in life in general is that people will tend to gravitate towards people with the same ideals and likes as themselves but it just becomes more evident on a forum and when viewed from a newbie or someone without the same ideals/values it suddenly becomes a clique or at least people start saying it's a clique, I have seen it on every single forum I have been on, and it's not a clique just posters agreeing with other posters, some people can open their minds and imaginations and see things from the others point of view but other don't/can't/won't and this is when friction flares up, but in the end it's an internet forum, most people don't 'know' each other in real life, and if you get that upset or offended then press the off button, walk away, is it really worth get so het up over strangers tapping on a computer, it really isn't.


----------



## Guest

GreyHare said:


> The whole thing with internet forums and actually in life in general is that people will tend to gravitate towards people with the same ideals and likes as themselves but it just becomes more evident on a forum and when viewed from a newbie or someone without the same ideals/values it suddenly becomes a clique or at least people start saying it's a clique, I have seen it on every single forum I have been on, and it's not a clique just posters agreeing with other posters, some people can open their minds and imaginations and see things from the others point of view but other don't/can't/won't and this is when friction flares up, but in the end it's an internet forum, most people don't 'know' each other in real life, and if you get that upset or offended then press the off button, walk away, is it really worth get so het up over strangers tapping on a computer, it really isn't.


You speak an aweful lot of sense there Have yougot your name down for prime minister? (perhaps no!! you are far too sensible)


----------



## Guest

> You do like making judgments with no evidence, don't you.


Haha.

You have openly admitted to allowing your kittens to pool together which imo causes un-necessary stress for both mums. Gratch stopped weighing her kittens way to early. So what's with the idea of lack of evidence? I am just going off what you have put on the forum.


----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> You have openly admitted to allowing your kittens to pool together which imo causes un-necessary stress for both mums.


And your experience and qualifications are what, exactly?

Liz


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> And your experience and qualifications are what, exactly?
> 
> Liz


Experience does *NOT* mean someone is doing it the right way. So it's really a redundant question.

What qualifications do you have Liz? What qualification out there would tell anyone it's a good idea to pool litters? None as far as I'm aware, well unless it's very outdated that is.

I think you're just trying to get these threads closed and removed now, like all the others ...


----------



## BSH

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't think anyone should be breeding anything!


Crikey!!!

BSH runs for cover


----------



## Guest

BSH said:


> Crikey!!!
> 
> BSH runs for cover


I shouldhva added in an ideal world! No need to run! I don't bite


----------



## Shayden

DoubleTrouble said:


> If I can say a quick word! Perhaps the one that causes world war three!
> PErsonally in this economic climate I don't think anyone should be breeding anything!
> I am sure those of you that show will say thats a load of b*llshit - but personally I think if there were no pedigree cats nor moggies available people may just go along to the shelters and take on a rescue! If everyone STOPPED breeding for just six month surely it would make a difference ! wouldn't it?


i said that before and got jumped on


----------



## gorgeous

Is anyone enjoying the sunshine? Just been out on the patio slurping some rather nice Pinot,,,,,but got a tad warm so come on here....looks like the sun is shining here too


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> And your experience and qualifications are what, exactly?
> 
> Liz


DT puts hands up in the air and waves frantically!  Me miss! me miss! I have some they are called common sense##
xxx

This is MEANT to be a nice reply - hope you all read it that way!


----------



## BSH

GreyHare said:


> The whole thing with internet forums and actually in life in general is that people will tend to gravitate towards people with the same ideals and likes as themselves but it just becomes more evident on a forum and when viewed from a newbie or someone without the same ideals/values it suddenly becomes a clique or at least people start saying it's a clique, I have seen it on every single forum I have been on, and it's not a clique just posters agreeing with other posters, some people can open their minds and imaginations and see things from the others point of view but other don't/can't/won't and this is when friction flares up, but in the end it's an internet forum, most people don't 'know' each other in real life, and if you get that upset or offended then press the off button, walk away, is it really worth get so het up over strangers tapping on a computer, it really isn't.


This is so true.
I do worry sometimes that internet forum posters may become very upset by some of the responses they receive. 
Another problem is that the written word does not reflect tone and some comments can be read in different ways and the true meaning contorted and misunderstood.


----------



## simplysardonic

gorgeous said:


> Is anyone enjoying the sunshine? Just been out on the patio slurping some rather nice Pinot,,,,,but got a tad warm so come on here....looks like the sun is shining here too


I'm enjoying it, it's been glorious today
the sunshine, that is


----------



## Guest

gorgeous said:


> Is anyone enjoying the sunshine? Just been out on the patio slurping some rather nice Pinot,,,,,but got a tad warm so come on here....looks like the sun is shining here too


The sun ALWAYS shines on the rightous gorgeous!


----------



## gorgeous

DoubleTrouble said:


> The sun ALWAYS shines on the rightous gorgeous!


Is that so DT?

If the sun shines on the rightEous, who does the rain pee on?:cryin:


----------



## gorgeous

simplysardonic said:


> I'm enjoying it, it's been glorious today
> the sunshine, that is


It is glorious weather, have you been slurping some chilled, too?:blink:


----------



## Guest

gorgeous said:


> Is that so DT?
> 
> If the sun shines on the rightEous, who does the rain pee on?:cryin:


ain't worked that one out yet! but sure I shall before this thread comes to an end


----------



## simplysardonic

gorgeous said:


> It is glorious weather, have you been slurping some chilled, too?:blink:


not yet, going to have a nice Amaretto Cooler on the rocks once I've had my dinner


----------



## Guest

Shayden said:


> i said that before and got jumped on


Just goes to show!
Great minds think alike!


----------



## Bwy39

gorgeous said:


> Is that so DT?
> 
> If the sun shines on the rightEous, who does the rain pee on?:cryin:


ME....sniffle


----------



## Guest

Bwy39 said:


> ME....sniffle


Now I happen to know that it don't always pee it down in Ellesmere port! so me reckons you are telling porkies!


----------



## Aurelia

I'm being kinda tropical ATM ... Vaping coconut and drinking iced strawberry and kiwi Fruit and Barley 

Hope the sun is shining tomorrow! Don't like soggy carboots


----------



## Guest

Aurelia said:


> I'm being kinda tropical ATM ... Vaping coconut and drinking iced strawberry and kiwi Fruit and Barley
> 
> Hope the sun is shining tomorrow! Don't like soggy carboots


i am vaping Banana! but may more onto the pina colada later


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> And your experience and qualifications are what, exactly?
> 
> Liz


Years working under a vet and common sense.

What qualifications do you have Liz? That say letting litters pool together doesnt stress the mothers out? Or that its wise to mix them so you then are un-able to tell the parentage of the cats?

If you can find me something to back up pooling litters I will gladly read it.


----------



## Bwy39

DoubleTrouble said:


> Now I happen to know that it don't always pee it down in Ellesmere port! so me reckons you are telling porkies!


I never ever tell "porkies" I am such a good looking intelligent and sophisticated young man far too clever to tell porkies.
If I was to tell Porkies my mother would lock me in one of the 150 bedrooms and not allow me to play with my friend Prince William.
Ever since I won the lottery when it was on that treble roll over I have been ever so careful not to tell porkies because I know if I did all the girls who queue up at my door begging for me to take them out would soon turn against me.
OK, I have to go now as my private jet is warmed up and waiting for me. :001_smile:


----------



## Guest

Bwy39 said:


> I never ever tell "porkies" I am such a good looking intelligent and sophisticated young man far too clever to tell porkies.
> If I was to tell Porkies my mother would lock me in one of the 150 bedrooms and not allow me to play with my friend Prince William.
> Ever since I won the lottery when it was on that treble roll over I have been ever so careful not to tell porkies because I know if I did all the girls who queue up at my door begging for me to take them out would soon turn against me.
> OK, I have to go now as my private jet is warmed up and waiting for me. :001_smile:


Oh dear! don't think prince william will be playing for a while! he is otherwise occupied!
and thought you would have had a 'jumbo' at the very least!


----------



## classixuk

gorgeous said:


> Is anyone enjoying the sunshine? Just been out on the patio slurping some rather nice Pinot,,,,,but got a tad warm so come on here....looks like the sun is shining here too


The sun is beautiful today. Just right...not too warm and not too cold.

I left here earlier and went to work to cash up and lock up.

Went to Tesco afterwards and picked up some lovely thick rump steak from the counter, so tonight I'll be doing a nice steak salad with spanish tapas, home made salsa and some chilled wine.

I'm just now sipping on a nice cool pinot myself before I go walk in the park with OH and the dog, and then possibly pop around to my dads for a family game of monopoly.

Life today is great!


----------



## Sacrechat

As a relatively new member to the forum, I just want to say that the frequent disagreements do not put me off coming on here. That's just life. We are all different and cannot all agree all of the time. If other newbies choose to leave just because some people have disagreed with them, then they are the one with the problem. It's not just on this forum that people disagree so those who leave are going to have a tough time finding this non-existent perfect forum where everyone is full of sweetness and light. I enjoy a good debate and that is what this forum offers. I would rather read powerfully worded posts from people disagreeing with each other, at least they are showing some personality and it's better than reading insipid posts telling each other how wonderful everyone is. This forum is interesting.


----------



## Guest

You ain't new! your part of the fixtures and fittings!


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> What qualifications do you have Liz?


BSc Biology. Nothing else of relevance.



> What qualification out there would tell anyone it's a good idea to pool litters?


That comes from experience. As I have said before, it is not compulsory but many of us do it if the cats want to. Sometimes it lessens stress, that's all. We have done this one to death before.



> I think you're just trying to get these threads closed and removed now, like all the others ...


ME??? Have ANY threads EVER been closed because of a post I made (except when you went crying to the mods because I used a nasty word ie. "kill")?

Liz


----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> What qualifications do you have Liz? That say letting litters pool together doesnt stress the mothers out?


That one is down to experience - 18 years of it. Why on earth you think it stresses them beats me. Cats AVOID stress, they don't SEEK it!

Liz


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> You ain't new! your part of the fixtures and fittings!


Well, thank you for the compliment, I think! I have been here only two months, though, and I love it.


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> That one is down to experience - 18 years of it. Why on earth you think it stresses them beats me. Cats AVOID stress, they don't SEEK it!
> 
> Liz


You think 2 mums sharing 2 litters? So I am guessing your cats can count now and share the litters out fairly to avoid stress?

I have seen it happen before, one mum ends up with x amount and the other ends up with less....so when you have a child Liz, and you go into play group...and another mum wants to give you her twins who are breast feeding having 3 babies hanging off you (more than what gave birth to) would not stress you out?

Not just the feeding but having x amount and another mother in the room imo would be stressful for the cat.

Experience means sweet FA.


----------



## classixuk

Sacremist said:


> As a relatively new member to the forum, I just want to say that the frequent disagreements do not put me off coming on here. That's just life. We are all different and cannot all agree all of the time. If other newbies choose to leave just because some people have disagreed with them, then they are the one with the problem. It's not just on this forum that people disagree so those who leave are going to have a tough time finding this non-existent perfect forum where everyone is full of sweetness and light. I enjoy a good debate and that is what this forum offers. *I would rather read powerfully worded posts* from people disagreeing with each other, at least they are showing some personality and it's better than reading insipid posts telling each other how wonderful everyone is. This forum is interesting.


This reply will make you wet. 

Complete List of Resume Power Words

*A*
Abated
Abbreviated
Abolished
Abridged
Absolved
Absorbed
Accelerated
Acclimated
Accompanied
Accomplished
Achieved
Acquired
Acted
Activated
Actuated
Adapted
Added
Addressed
Adhered
Adjusted
Administered
Admitted
Adopted
Advanced
Advertised
Advised
Advocated
Affected
Aided
Aired
Allocated
Altered
Amended
Amplified
Analyzed
Answered
Anticipated
Applied
Appointed
Appraised
Approached
Approved
Arbitrated
Arranged
Articulated
Ascertained
Asked
Assembled
Assessed
Assigned
Assisted
Assumed
Attained
Attracted
Audited
Augmented
Authored
Authorized
Automated
Awarded

*B*
Balanced
Bargained
Began
Benchmarked
Benefited
Bid
Billed
Blocked
Bolstered
Boosted
Borrowed
Bought
Branded
Bridged
Broadened
Brought
Budgeted
Built

*C*
Calculated
Canvassed
Captured
Cast
Cataloged
Catalogued
Categorized
Centralized
Chaired
Challenged
Changed
Channeled
Charted
Checked
Circulated
Clarified
Classified
Cleared
Coached
Co-authored
Collaborated
Collected
Combined
Commissioned
Committed
Communicated
Compiled
Completed
Complied
Composed
Computed
Conceived
Conceptualized
Condensed
Conducted
Conserved
Consolidated
Constructed
Consulted
Contributed
Controlled
Converted
Conveyed
Convinced
Coordinated
Corrected
Counseled
Created
Critiqued
Cultivated
Customized
Cut

*D*
Dealt
Debated
Debugged
Decentralized
Decreased
Deferred
Defined
Delivered
Demonstrated
Depreciated
Described
Designated
Designed
Detected
Determined
Developed
Devised
Diagnosed
Directed
Discovered
Dispatched
Dissembled
Distinguished
Distributed
Diversified
Divested
Doubled

*E*
Earned
Eased
Educated
Effected
Elicited
Eliminated
Emphasized
Enabled
Encouraged
Endorsed
Enforced
Engaged
Engineered
Enhanced
Enlarged
Enlisted
Enriched
Ensured
Established
Examined
Exceeded
Exchanged
Executed
Exempted
Expanded
Expedited
Explored
Exposed
Extended
Extracted

*F*
Fabricated
Facilitated
Fashioned
Fielded
Financed
Focused
Forecasted
Formalized
Formed
Formulated
Fortified
Founded
Fulfilled
Furnished
Furthered

*G*
Gained
Gathered
Gauged
Generated
Governed
Graded
Granted
Greeted
Grouped
Guided

*H*
Handled
Helped
Hired
Hosted

*I*
Identified
Illuminated
Illustrated
Implemented
Improved
Improvised
Inaugurated
Incorporated
Increased
Incurred
Individualized
Indoctrinated
Induced
Influenced
Initiated
Innovated
Inquired
Inspected
Inspired
Installed
Instigated
Instilled
Instituted
Instructed
Insured
Integrated
Interacted
Interpreted
Intervened
Interviewed
Introduced
Invented
Inventoried
Invested
Investigated
Invited
Involved
Isolated
Issued

*J*
Joined
Judged
Justified

*K*
Kept

*L*
Launched
Lectured
Led
Lightened
Liquidated
Litigated
Lobbied
Localized
Located
Logged

*M*
Maintained
Managed
Mapped
Marketed
Maximized
Measured
Mediated
Merchandised
Merged
Minimized
Modeled
Moderated
Modernized
Modified
Monitored
Motivated
Moved
Multiplied

*N*
Named
Narrated
Navigated
Negotiated
Netted
Noticed
Nurtured

*O*
Observed
Obtained
Offered
Opened
Operated
Orchestrated
Ordered
Organized
Oriented
Originated
Overhauled
Oversaw

*P*
Participated
Patterned
Performed
Persuaded
Phased
Photographed
Pinpointed
Pioneered
Placed
Planned
Polled
Prepared
Presented
Preserved
Presided
Prevented
Processed
Procured
Profiled
Programmed
Projected
Promoted
Prompted
Proposed
Proved
Provided
Publicized
Published
Purchased
Pursued

*Q*
Qualified
Quantified
Quoted

*R*
Raised
Ranked
Rated
Received
Recommended
Reconciled
Recorded
Recovered
Recruited
Rectified
Redesigned
Reduced
Refined
Regained
Registered
Regulated
Rehabilitated
Reinforced
Reinstated
Rejected
Remedied
Remodeled
Renegotiated
Reorganized
Repaired
Replaced
Reported
Represented
Researched
Resolved
Responded
Restored
Restructured
Resulted
Retained
Retrieved
Revamped
Revealed
Reversed
Reviewed
Revised
Revitalized
Rewarded

*S*
Safeguarded
Salvaged
Saved
Screened
Secured
Segmented
Selected
Separated
Served
Serviced
Settled
Shaped
Shortened
Shrank
Signed
Simplified
Simulated
Sold
Solicited
Solved
Spearheaded
Specialized
Specified
Speculated
Spoke
Spread
Stabilized
Staffed
Staged
Standardized
Steered
Stimulated
Strategized
Streamlined
Strengthened
Stressed
Structured
Studied
Submitted
Substantiated
Substituted
Suggested
Superseded
Supervised
Supplied
Supported
Surpassed
Surveyed
Synchronized
Systematized

*T*
Tabulated
Tailored
Targeted
Taught
Tightened
Took
Traced
Traded
Trained
Transacted
Transferred
Transformed
Translated
Transmitted
Transported
Treated
Tripled
Troubleshot
Tutored

*U*
Uncovered
Underlined
Underscord
Undertook
Underwrote
Unearthed
Unified
United
Updated
Upgraded
Urged
Used
Utilized

*V*
Validated
Valued
Verbalized
Verified
Viewed
Visited
Visualized
Voiced
Volunteered

*W*
Weathered
Weighed
Welcomed
Widened
Withstood
Witnessed
Won
Worked
Wrote

*X*
-

*Y*
Yielded

*Z*
-

On closer inspection though, clique isn't listed (which brings us safely back on topic).


----------



## NoSpecialFeaturesHere

How is the word "yielded" powerful?


----------



## Sacrechat

Thank you for the vocabulary list. I'm sure it will come in very handy.:blink:


----------



## Gratch

shetlandlover said:


> This is bang out of order......Gratch why did you like this? You want to make a pregnancy thread giving a guide yet you have only had 1 litter too.


Why did I like it? I think the mods have already told us not to concern ourselves over 'likes' or 'rep'. I 'liked' it for reasons I don't feel the need to disclose to you. Yes I want to write a moggie pregnancy thread. I never said it would be MY experience. If you recall my first thread I was asking for a collaboration so alot of peoples experience and advice could be found easily in one thread that was easy to access. I would just have been weaving it together and wording it appropriately aswell as setting it into sections that could be linked to for more specific information. My intent was to be the editor basically. I would ofcourse have added my personal story along with many others at the end however.


----------



## Gratch

The original thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-bree...bate-how-educate-member-moggie-pregnancy.html

Should maybe see if a mod would lock it though.


----------



## Gem16

This thread has taken me ages to read through and i've gone from being irritated to laughing to just  :lol:


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

The more I read the forum, the more I think everything we say on here is pointless as its always ultimately ignored for petty reasons... (not at all aimed at ANYONE on this thread, promise) For every person the thread will help, another ten will ignore it.

I suppose it should be done for that 1 in 10...

I've lost the faith.


----------



## Gratch

gloworm*mushroom said:


> The more I read the forum, the more I think everything we say on here is pointless as its always ultimately ignored for petty reasons... (not at all aimed at ANYONE on this thread, promise) For every person the thread will help, another ten will ignore it.
> 
> I suppose it should be done for that 1 in 10...
> 
> I've lost the faith.


Indeed, for the 1 in 10.


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> BSc Biology. Nothing else of relevance.


:lol: :lol: I'm sorry but that hilarious. Didn't you have to DNA test because you weren't sure if one of your studs was old enough to have fathered a litter?



lizward said:


> That comes from experience. As I have said before, it is not compulsory but many of us do it if the cats want to. Sometimes it lessens stress, that's all. We have done this one to death before.


So you're willing to risk an illness wiping out 2 litters instead of just one, because the cats want to pool ... which I highly doubt btw, they should never be in a position where they get the chance to pool!



lizward said:


> ME??? Have ANY threads EVER been closed because of a post I made (except when you went crying to the mods because I used a nasty word ie. "kill")?
> 
> Liz


"Kill"? Don't you mean 'murder'?  and I didn't go crying to the mods at all. I made everyone on the thread aware of the fact I was reporting your disgusting post that insinuated anyone who thought about spaying a pregnant cat was guilty of 'murder'.

I've a good memory Liz. Sometimes it benefits me greatly ... hence why I absorb so much with regards to breeding and breeding ethics. At other times it's a crappy thing to have because you remember pictures and tales that you really would rather you didn't


----------



## Shayden

ok ladies.... lets let go of the hair and put the claws away!... agree to disagree and move on! :nono:


----------



## Guest

Shayden said:


> ok ladies.... lets let go of the hair and put the claws away!... agree to disagree and move on! :nono:


I've just sent out for popcorn


----------



## Shayden

DoubleTrouble said:


> I've just sent out for popcorn


make sure its sweet... with butter


----------



## Gratch

Look, if popcorn is going to be involved it better be toffee.


----------



## Guest

Shayden said:


> make sure its sweet... with butter


Deal! but you can get the icecreams at half time


----------



## shells

ooooooo i love toffee popcorn make sure you have enough for me


----------



## Shayden

im more of a sorbet kinda girl .... all these nice new icecream parlors are popping up everywhere in london ....  .


----------



## shells

seriously im suposed to be dieting lol so all this talk of treats aint good


----------



## simplysardonic

Gratch said:


> Look, if popcorn is going to be involved it better be toffee.


no way, savoury aaaaaall the way


----------



## Gratch

simplysardonic said:


> no way, savoury aaaaaall the way


Clearly uneducated in the awesomeness of toffee popcorn! :nono:


----------



## Guest




----------



## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> You think 2 mums sharing 2 litters? So I am guessing your cats can count now and share the litters out fairly to avoid stress?


Well naturally you know far more than I ever could. Perhaps you should come and tell my girls who want to share their litters at the moment (and are not being allowed to because one lot are twice the size of the others) that they are stressed. They don't look stressed when they push their way into one another's kitten pens to try to feed one another's kittens, but hey ho, you say that causes stress so no doubt you must be right.

Liz


----------



## Kitty_pig

classixuk said:


> This reply will make you wet.
> 
> Complete List of Resume Power Words
> 
> [


that just made me laugh my little tushy off :lol:


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> :lol: :lol: I'm sorry but that hilarious. Didn't you have to DNA test because you weren't sure if one of your studs was old enough to have fathered a litter?


Yes, what exactly do you find difficult about that? Surely you udnerstand that individuals develop at different rates?



> So you're willing to risk an illness wiping out 2 litters instead of just one, because the cats want to pool


I don't do barrier nursing as a matter of course. Do you? You understand about fomites, I assume?



> ... which I highly doubt btw, they should never be in a position where they get the chance to pool!


The great one has spoken. Let us all keep silence and listen to the pearls of wisdom.



> "Kill"? Don't you mean 'murder'?


No I don't. I have said more than once that killing an animal is not murder.



> I made everyone on the thread aware of the fact I was reporting your disgusting post that insinuated anyone who thought about spaying a pregnant cat was guilty of 'murder'


Perhaps a course in basic English comprehension might be in order.

Liz


----------



## Guest

Kitty_pig said:


> that just made me laugh my little tushy off :lol:


Whats a tushy!  take it its what ya sit on


----------



## Sacrechat

DoubleTrouble said:


> Whats a tushy!  take it its what ya sit on


And a cushy tushy would be a well-padded seat, yes?


----------



## Bandy

Shayden said:


> ok ladies.... *lets let go of the hair* and put the claws away!... agree to disagree and move on! :nono:


Shush you.....you'll ruin my entertainment.


----------



## Kitty_pig

DoubleTrouble said:


> Whats a tushy!  take it its what ya sit on


yes it is DT :tongue_smilie:


----------



## gladass

lizward said:


> They don't look stressed when they push their way into one another's kitten pens to try to feed one another's kittens, but hey ho, you say that causes stress so no doubt you must be right.
> 
> Liz


If they have to "push" their way into each others pen can I ask why you do not stop them??
or is there any known benfits from said practise?? Any of your scientific or experienced answers will do nicely.

I would as the Breeder be slightly stressed if I did not know whose kittens belonged to who


----------



## catsmum

gladass said:


> If they have to "push" their way into each others pen can I ask why you do not stop them??
> or is there any known benfits from said practise?? Any of your scientific or experienced answers will do nicely.
> 
> I would as the Breeder be slightly stressed if I did not know whose kittens belonged to who


as RESPONSIBLE owners, when we breed cats, it is our job to ensure that queens with kittens have a peacful safe environment to bring those kittens up in. nothing or no one should be shoving their way into a queens pen. not the children, the grandchildren, granny, betty from next door, the family's pet dog or other cats.nothing and no one should be pushing in on a queens litter.


----------



## gladass

catsmum said:


> as RESPONSIBLE owners, when we breed cats, it is our job to ensure that queens with kittens have a peacful safe environment to bring those kittens up in. nothing or no one should be shoving their way into a queens pen. not the children, the grandchildren, granny, betty from next door, the family's pet dog or other cats.nothing and no one should be pushing in on a queens litter.


Agree and also you forgot the "Fomites" lol  nasty little buggsers get everywhere


----------



## havoc

I've got over 30 years experience (obviously irrelevant) and I have to say that in all that time I've never forced nursing mothers to pool litters and only once have I tried to stop them doing so if they wanted. I also have had cats who didn't want other adults near their young kittens and those who have had a feline companion with them from the birth onwards - it's their choice.

I do think it could be a breed specific thing. I think Liz breeds Siamese and I also have a related breed. These breeds love company of their own kind and in the wild those cats which live in groups do tend to 'pool' their young.


----------



## lizward

gladass said:


> If they have to "push" their way into each others pen can I ask why you do not stop them??


I do stop them at the moment - or at least remove them after a while, because the litters although only four days apart are very dissimilar in size. Why don't I stop them? Sometimes because my hands are full, sometimes because they are so persistent.



> or is there any known benfits from said practise?? Any of your scientific or experienced answers will do nicely.


Yes, as I have said, stress reduction!



> I would as the Breeder be slightly stressed if I did not know whose kittens belonged to who


Rarely an issue, it has only ever happened to me once and that was only because I didn't consult the notes I made at the time they were born and rememebred wrongly.

Liz


----------



## gladass

havoc said:


> I've never forced nursing mothers to pool litters and only once have I tried to stop them doing so if they wanted.


Can I ask why you stopped them pooling?


----------



## Amethyst

Shayden said:


> so you way and opinion is right and if anyone disagrees with you they dont have any real concern for cats welfare or breeding


In this section of the forum, I find that to be invariably so, when it come to the cat's welfare ...


----------



## Amethyst

gladass said:


> I would as the Breeder be slightly stressed if I did not know whose kittens belonged to who


And as kitten buyer I would be slightly stressed too, to the point I would walk ... no RUN out the door 

I would trust neither the breeder or the pedigree of kittens reared in a such a haphazard fashion


----------



## havoc

> Can I ask why you stopped them pooling?


Because right back at my first experience of more than one litter in the house I thought it was the right thing to do. No other reason and I soon gave up the fight for the sake of the kittens - a determined queen banging against a closed door with a kitten in her mouth sort of makes your mind up for you.


----------



## havoc

> And as kitten buyer I would be slightly stressed too, to the point I would walk ... no RUN out the door
> 
> I would trust neither the breeder or the pedigree of kittens reared in a such a haphazard fashion


I would point out I've never not known which kittens were which.


----------



## Amethyst

havoc said:


> I would point out I've never not known which kittens were which.


And as a buyer, I'd only have your word on it 

If I didn't know you (and I generalise on all breeders who pool) pooled kits then of course I'd never be any the wiser, but once I heard that is what you did ... I'd think lax and lazy breeder 

To be honest, I'd wonder what else you (generalising) got up to and what other corners were cut


----------



## Bandy

havoc said:


> I've got over 30 years experience (obviously irrelevant) and I have to say that in all that time I've never forced nursing mothers to pool litters and only once have I tried to stop them doing so if they wanted. *I also have had cats who didn't want other adults near their young kittens* and those who have had a feline companion with them from the birth onwards - it's their choice.
> 
> I do think it could be a breed specific thing. I think Liz breeds Siamese and I also have a related breed. These breeds love company of their own kind and in the wild those cats which live in groups do tend to 'pool' their young.


The highlighted bit struck me.

Not having the experience you knowledgeable women obviously have...and not being a breeder...I tended to just raise my cats with love.

My last actually woke me giving birth in my bed :blink:

Nasty, yes. Shocking, yes.

An adorable memory I cherish...obviously.

You gals may now continue your claw fest.


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> Do you ever have anything more than a breeders word as to the pedigree of a kitten or puppy?


You don't even have that, as who knows what breeders waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in pedigree got up to given some breeders on here admissions.

But to know a breeder pools kittens does not bode well ... nobody in their right mind would buy with that *knowledge*. Screams dodgy breeder.


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> In your opinion


Is that something we now need to add after all our posts then? "In my opinion."


----------



## Guest

Imo, I would run from any breeder who had a "whos the mummy" or "whos the daddy" problems. Who's the daddy is a mistake, easy to make I guess but who's the mummy....well thats not acceptable.

Maybe its because I know of NO dog breeders who pool litters, I believe the only time its done is when the pups are struggling to suck or mum dies then they go to a surrogate mum and IF its the same breed the breeder will use ID collars or mark with a marker to tell who's is who's.


----------



## suzy93074

Amethyst said:


> Because anyone with any real concern about cat welfare and breeding would be unlikely to disagree with me


In your opinion


----------



## Shayden

at the end of the day... everyone is giving their own personal opinion of what they would do with their queens/kittens etc ... every cat is different, and im sure the queens know what their doing... if my girl was banging her head on the door with a kitten in her mouth trying to get into the other cats pen then maybe it works for them... if your cat prefers solitude and more of a quiet atmosphere it may not work for them. each to there own! if you dont agree then dont do it simples. if liz came on the forum talking about how she pools kittens and now their all sick then you would have a reason to disaprove but until your in her shoes or you see for yourself that doing this with her specific cats are causing a detremental effect then i suggest u mind ur own and stop using it against her! 

yes she ONCE in 18 yrs had an accident where she didnt know whos the kittens were to what queen but im sure someone said in a pervious post that she did a dna test to find out.... that would imply to me that she was responcible enough to make sure she knew for definate and didnt just claim this kitten goes with this queen


----------



## catsmum

I must make a note of this in your opinion thing and use it every time I cant put forward a thought out reply


----------



## Amethyst

catsmum said:


> I must make a note of this in your opinion thing and use it every time I cant put forward a thought out reply


Indeed ... especially when you know it won't be popular with certain people :hand: :laugh:


----------



## catsmum

hawksport said:


> That would be a good idea.
> In my opinion


a good idea or

yet another example of dumbing down

when a person cant argue a point logically and can only counter a well thought out, informed point of view with a weak "well thats just your opinion" then it displays a lack of knowledge on the subject

in my opinion

of course


----------



## Bwy39

DoubleTrouble said:


> Good luck in finding one! I hear the breed specific ones tend to stay on topic!


I have found one at last. It is in the local infants school if any of you are interested in INTELLIGENT conversation without all this crap.

I also think....IN MY OPINION.....that the standard of moderating in this forum is well below many others.

I am now leaving the forum never to return you can all go on fighting like kids spoiling the forum for those with an ounce of common sense.

I AM DISGUSTED WITH IT ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Amethyst

catsmum said:


> a good idea or
> 
> yet another example of dumbing down
> 
> when a person cant argue a point logically and can only counter a well thought out, informed point of view with a weak "well thats just your opinion" then it displays a lack of knowledge on the subject
> 
> in my opinion
> 
> of course


Well said catsmum :thumbsup:

Rep for that


----------



## Waterlily

Bwy39 said:


> I have found one at last. It is in the local infants school if any of you are interested in INTELLIGENT conversation without all this crap.
> 
> I also think....IN MY OPINION.....that the standard of moderating in this forum is well below many others.
> 
> I am now leaving the forum never to return you can all go on fighting like kids spoiling the forum for those with an ounce of common sense.
> 
> I AM DISGUSTED WITH IT ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


bye ..................


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> There are opinions and then there are proven facts.


So anything anyone types on here that is not proven fact should have "In my opinion" as a disclaimer :laugh:

Or perhaps it only applies to certain members


----------



## CAstbury

Isn't this getting a bit childish?


----------



## catsmum

Amethyst said:


> So anything anyone types on here that is not proven fact should have "In my opinion" as a disclaimer :laugh:
> 
> Or perhaps it only applies to certain members


oh definitely it would just apply to certain members, those with reponsibility, ethics and cat welfare forefront in their minds


----------



## suzy93074

catsmum said:


> oh definitely it would just apply to certain members, those with reponsibility, ethics and cat welfare forefront in their minds


So its perfectly acceptable to ridicule anyone elses thoughts as unvalid because they dont agree with yours? suddenly they are unethical and dont care about cats


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> One of those would be silly and the other would be unfair.
> Perhaps those that don't agree with the majority should just use the avoidence tactics Ive seen being used when some of you are asked difficult questions on things you try to pass off as fact


You've forgotten your fave three important words hun


----------



## catsmum

suzy93074 said:


> So its perfectly acceptable to ridicule anyone elses thoughts as unvalid because they dont agree with yours? suddenly they are unethical and dont care about cats


me?

ridicule?

no  !

thats *just your opinion *that i do that


----------



## Moogz

In my opinion.... they should bring back vanilla coke, that was the bomb.


----------



## Guest

God this brings back memories of....

"I know you are you said you are so what am I?".:glare:


----------



## Amethyst

shetlandlover said:


> God this brings back memories of....
> 
> "I know you are you said you are so what am I?".:glare:


Missed that one 

Probably for the best


----------



## Waterlily

catsmum said:


> me?
> 
> ridicule?
> 
> i do that


lol round of applause for getting the message, you needed it *imo*


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Missed that one
> 
> Probably for the best


In school, if you said anything against someone else they would say...

"I know you are you said you are so what am I?"

It was dearly annoying.


----------



## Amethyst

shetlandlover said:


> In school, if you said anything against someone else they would say...
> 
> "I know you are you said you are so what am I?"
> 
> It was dearly annoying.


New to me


----------



## Moogz

Back in school where I come from, we had our own saying "Bitch, I'll cut you!"

I loved living in Fife.


----------



## suzy93074

catsmum said:


> me?
> 
> ridicule?
> 
> no  !
> 
> thats *just your opinion *that i do that


Glad you getting the message - others ARE allowed an opinion


----------



## catsmum

suzy93074 said:


> Glad you getting the message - others ARE allowed an opinion


but its still my opinion that only peeps who cant put forward a logical arguement counter points with "thats just your opinion"


----------



## Amethyst

Moogz said:


> Back in school where I come from, we had our own saying "Bitch, I'll cut you!"
> 
> I loved living in Fife.


Wow, I thought certain individuals lost it and got aggressive on here


----------



## Shayden

Moogz said:


> Back in school where I come from, we had our own saying "Bitch, I'll cut you!"
> 
> I loved living in Fife.


lool u sound like you went to the same school as me


----------



## Moogz

Amethyst said:


> Wow, I thought certain individuals lost it and got aggressive on here


You had to be tough in Fife, I used to have raw mince as my playpiece


----------



## Waterlily

Moogz said:


> You had to be tough in Fife, I used to have raw mince as my playpiece


ahahahaha so funny


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Amethyst

Moogz said:


> You had to be tough in Fife, I used to have raw mince as my playpiece


Is that Fife in Scotland? I've been there on holiday and it looked a nice place


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> so Ill give some rep instead. Red and green


I'm shaking in my boots at the prospect :001_rolleyes::laugh:


----------



## suzy93074

catsmum said:


> but its still my opinion that only peeps who cant put forward a logical arguement counter points with "thats just your opinion"


I can put forward a logical argument - mine has been and always will be the same - I have said on many many many many occasions what you and others say is often correct - but the way it is executed is wrong! - if it wasnt wrong why do so many newbies get the hump and leave?? why has this thread and many others been created if there is not a problem??? not all are ignorant twonks who dont want to listen to you all surely! so maybe just maybe its the militant way in which you all seem to hound a person when you are supposedly giving advice - interrogating them like you are the MI5 - what right has anyone got to ask about papers of breeders and how much your finances are -(these are just a couple of the sort of invasive questions that get asked ) - there is stating opinions and giving advice and there is being downright rude and nasty -again thats just MY opinion - and one im perfectly entitled to


----------



## Moogz

Yuppers, Fife Scotland. I lived in Rosyth "The Garden City"

Garden of broken dreams and hypodermic needles perhaps.


----------



## simplysardonic

if opinions were tennis balls this would be an interesting match


----------



## Amethyst

suzy93074 said:


> - if it wasnt wrong why do so many newbies get the hump and leave?? /QUOTE]
> 
> Because they just want to get congratulated, patted on the back and asked to post some fluffy kitten pics?


----------



## Gratch

simplysardonic said:


> if opinions were tennis balls this would be an interesting match


Aye some smack you hard in the face break your nose


----------



## Amethyst

Moogz said:


> Yuppers, Fife Scotland. I lived in Rosyth "The Garden City"
> 
> Garden of broken dreams and hypodermic needles perhaps.


Well it WAS a few years ago :001_unsure:


----------



## Shayden

Amethyst said:


> suzy93074 said:
> 
> 
> 
> - if it wasnt wrong why do so many newbies get the hump and leave?? /QUOTE]
> 
> Because they just want to get congratulated, patted on the back and asked to post some fluffy kitten pics?
> 
> 
> 
> im sure if that was the only reason they wouldnt bother coming on a forum for that.... :glare:
Click to expand...


----------



## catsmum

suzy93074 said:


> if it wasnt wrong why do so many newbies get the hump and leave??


maybe because the truth hurts and they dont like hearing they are irresponsible, mating a cat with no thought to being responsible or ethical and doing it correctly?



suzy93074 said:


> why has this thread and many others been created if there is not a problem???


because sadly a lot of people _do_ support and condone the irresponsible breeding of cats



suzy93074 said:


> not all are ignorant twonks who dont want to listen to you all surely!


not all, no, just the vast majority. Responsible non-twonk people get their cats neutered



suzy93074 said:


> thats just MY opinion


and the above is just mine 



suzy93074 said:


> and one im perfectly entitled to


same here


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> Amethyst said:
> 
> 
> 
> But all the best advice in the world is no help if it's delivered in the wrong way and those needing it never come back
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps they never come back because they don't want to hear *anything* but fluffybunnykin talk.
Click to expand...


----------



## Amethyst

Shayden said:


> Amethyst said:
> 
> 
> 
> im sure if that was the only reason they wouldnt bother coming on a forum for that.... :glare:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I think there are a fair few attention seekers among them
Click to expand...


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> Amethyst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or perhaps they just wanted some advice without being made to feel like scum
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are being overly dramatic now.
Click to expand...


----------



## Waterlily

> Amethyst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I think there are a fair few attention seekers among them
Click to expand...

 and a hell of a lot of people at the end of there tether needing help asap not judgment from people that never make mistakes

in there own mind


----------



## catsmum

suzy93074 said:


> - if it wasnt wrong why do so many newbies get the hump and leave??





Amethyst said:


> because they just want to get congratulated, patted on the back and asked to post some fluffy kitten pics?


and dont forget going to a vet for pregnancy and birthing advice costs a lot of money, moggy breeders generally dont like to spend money on vets bills, so this is source of free advice, saving money on vet bills

and it must be nice to be surrounded by so many like-minded people whose unneutered cat also escpaed out the open window in those 5 seconds they just werent looking


----------



## Shayden

there really should be more mods like you.... gotta give u another green card for that one!


----------



## suzy93074

Amethyst said:


> suzy93074 said:
> 
> 
> 
> - if it wasnt wrong why do so many newbies get the hump and leave?? /QUOTE]
> 
> Because they just want to get congratulated, patted on the back and asked to post some fluffy kitten pics?
> 
> 
> 
> In some cases yes! but not all! - I have seen some get an absolute roasting - get called allsorts, and still they stay! they hang in there - why? because they want to learn and want to be educated - are they not worth coming off the high horse for sometimes?
Click to expand...


----------



## Shayden

loool at people getting dumped on for a one off accident... i wonder how many of your children were planned  ... i can only imagin what ur dr said you u!


----------



## Shayden

Amethyst said:


> hawksport said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are being overly dramatic now.
> 
> 
> 
> i think hes bang on the mark
Click to expand...


----------



## Amethyst

Shayden said:


> loool at people getting dumped on for a one off accident... i wonder how many of your children were planned  ... i can only imagin what ur dr said you u!


Some people are lot more capable of managing their reproductive system than others manage their cats


----------



## Guest

I would have a lot more respect for poster that come on with 'accidental' pregnancies is they were honest and truthful and said I wanted a litter of kittens rather than going round the houses with the whole poor little kitty escaped etc, but then i would have have a lot more respect if they researched cat breeding and the rescue situation before embarking on breeding their mogs.


----------



## Shayden

Amethyst said:


> Some people are lot more capable of managing their reproductive system than others manage their cats


if only they could say the same for their mouths


----------



## Amethyst

Shayden said:


> if only they could say the same for their mouths


Your being silly now Hun


----------



## Waterlily

Amethyst said:


> Some people are lot more capable of managing their reproductive system than others manage their cats


garbage................

unless you have statistics of course


----------



## Waterlily

Amethyst said:


> Your being silly now Hun


you seem to think slapping on a  after an a**hole comment makes you appear sweeter 

look mods stars for the whingers


----------



## Gratch

Amethyst said:


> Some people are lot more capable of managing their reproductive system than others manage their cats


Aye all the junkies spewing out their offspring every 12 months is fine and dandy :thumbsup:


----------



## Guest

Are we not all getting a little too personal now :nono:


----------



## Shayden

Amethyst said:


> Your being silly now Hun


i disagree... but of course if im not part of the majority my opinion obviously doesnt matter!


----------



## Guest

Comparing pedigree breeders to hitler - Acceptable.
Voicing opinions disagreeing with "accidental" breeding - Not acceptable.

I hold respect for every single member of the forum even those I do not get on with, my opinion is no more valid than thiers and with breeding I think there will always be two corners 1 that supports accidental litters and 1 that doesnt. 

If we have to put "In my opinion" at the start of every post so be it. I am happy to do so. However I have asked for scientific proof that pooling litters is a stress free and beneficial thing to do and have yet to get any. I am happy to use "my opinion" as long as others do too. Just because someone has done something for x amount of years does not mean its right nor does it mean that someone else who has been breeding ethically should be be-littled because they have only had 1 litter. 

Remember way back when, when to punish your dog was to hit it on the nose with a paper or rub its nose in its pee? How many years was that done for? Maybe not by yourselves but generations of people did it and some still do. Does it make it right? Hell no.

But obviously.....just my opinion.


----------



## Moogz

Dr. Seuss said:


> Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind.


:nono:

Wise words!


----------



## Gratch

shetlandlover said:


> Comparing pedigree breeders to hitler - Acceptable.


I didn't read the rest of your post yet but just right off - the mods closed that thread because it _wasn't_ acceptable.


----------



## shells

catsmum said:


> and dont forget going to a vet for pregnancy and birthing advice costs a lot of money, moggy breeders generally dont like to spend money on vets bills, so this is source of free advice, saving money on vet bills
> 
> and it must be nice to be surrounded by so many like-minded people whose unneutered cat also escpaed out the open window in those 5 seconds they just werent looking


as much as yes some people are like this i do not think this aplies to all so isnt really a faire statment.I have moggy cats who havent been jabbed and the female not nutered yet. Does this make me a bad person? most of you will say or think yes . and on that info maybe but no one ever knows the facts.
1)i did not go and get my cats, they were abandoned in the street infront of mine.
2) they decided my out house whitch has no door would make a good home.
3)yes i did start to leave food for them as they looked all bones
4)i have tried encoraging them in (once or twice they have come in but for mear seconds)
5) the male has bn nutered but since then they dont trust me much anymore
6)i have tried catching the female to get nutered but as soon as she sees a crate or carrier even a box she disapears.i have even asked advice on here over her. i will continue to try and get her done. 
7)they are fleed/wormed 
8)again cant get them to the vet for jabs.
i have and am doing all i can for these two however is it good enough ?
am i a bad pet owner? and before i get linched remember these are strays they will not come inside properly 
the main question here though is how many newbies are in the same situation as me ,dont get a chance to explain properly and end up running due to some peoples opinions coming across as though they are being bullied, not aimed at anyone . xx


----------



## catsmum

Gratch said:


> Aye all the junkies spewing out their offspring every 12 months is fine and dandy :thumbsup:


course its not, but at leats some junkies manage to neuter their cats on time

something *you* didnt manage to do

despite a false alarm MONTHS before your cat STILL got "accidentally" pregnant

what else you could have expected with an unneutered male and an unneutered female in your home, i dont know. even "junkies spewing out offspring" could have worked out that two unneutered cats of different sexes in one home = a litter of kittens

people in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones


----------



## Guest

Gratch said:


> I didn't read the rest of your post yet but just right off - the mods closed that thread because it _wasn't_ acceptable.


It was closed because it was brought to the mods attention, after the damage had already been done imo. But still, the poster remained around to carry on flaming threads including this one which was started to cause trouble which has been successful.


----------



## Gratch

catsmum said:


> course its not, but at leats some junkies manage to neuter their cats on time
> 
> something *you* didnt manage to do
> 
> despite a false alarm MONTHS before your cat STILL got "accidentally" pregnant
> 
> what else you could have expected with an unneutered male and an unneutered female in your home, i dont know. even "junkies spewing out offspring" could have worked out that two unneutered cats of different sexes in one home = a litter of kittens
> 
> people in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones


Thought you would have been past bringing this up by now : Get over it.


----------



## Amethyst

shetlandlover said:


> Remember way back when, when to punish your dog was to hit it on the nose with a paper or rub its nose in its pee? How many years was that done for? Maybe not by yourselves but generations of people did it and some still do. Does it make it right? Hell no.


Yes what was acceptable once, should not necessarily be acceptable now. It's never right for an animal to suffer because of our ignorance ... or neglect.

You know some of the things I have read on here makes me wonder if a minority of members are still living in the dark ages :001_unsure:


----------



## Moogz

Waterlily said:


> you seem to think slapping on a  after an a**hole comment makes you appear sweeter
> 
> look mods stars for the whingers


----------



## Guest

catsmum said:


> course its not, but at leats some junkies manage to neuter their cats on time
> 
> something *you* didnt manage to do
> 
> despite a false alarm MONTHS before your cat STILL got "accidentally" pregnant
> 
> what else you could have expected with an unneutered male and an unneutered female in your home, i dont know. even "junkies spewing out offspring" could have worked out that two unneutered cats of different sexes in one home = a litter of kittens
> 
> people in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones


Eeeek that is a tad harsh


----------



## catsmum

Gratch said:


> Thought you would have been past bringing this up by now : Get over it.


not when you insist on making derogatory statements about junkies spewing out offspring

dont dish it out if you cant take it back


----------



## Bandy

less teeth...more hair pulling.


----------



## suzy93074

shetlandlover said:


> Comparing pedigree breeders to hitler - Acceptable.
> Voicing opinions disagreeing with "accidental" breeding - Not acceptable.
> 
> I hold respect for every single member of the forum even those I do not get on with, my opinion is no more valid than thiers and with breeding I think there will always be two corners 1 that supports accidental litters and 1 that doesnt.
> 
> If we have to put "In my opinion" at the start of every post so be it. I am happy to do so. However I have asked for scientific proof that pooling litters is a stress free and beneficial thing to do and have yet to get any. I am happy to use "my opinion" as long as others do too. Just because someone has done something for x amount of years does not mean its right nor does it mean that someone else who has been breeding ethically should be be-littled because they have only had 1 litter.
> 
> Remember way back when, when to punish your dog was to hit it on the nose with a paper or rub its nose in its pee? How many years was that done for? Maybe not by yourselves but generations of people did it and some still do. Does it make it right? Hell no.
> 
> But obviously.....just my opinion.


You are perfectly entitled to your opinion! as is every single person on this forum! - but IMO what is unacceptable is the constant badgering,hounding,villifying of newbies coming on with pregnant cats - which is ultimately the problem at the moment - this is NOT about yours or anyone elses for that matter opinion - its about giving advice to someone who has joined a pet forum - without having to justify their mortgage,breeding papers,what colour knickers they are wearing....etc etc - then the EDUCATION needs to start of the said member so they dont make the same mistake - but that does not happen - im sure a doctor giving a liver transplant to an alchoholic doesnt always agree with what he is doing but he has to - its his job and he has to put personal feelings and opinions aside sometimes - and if we all have the animals welfares at heart shouldnt that be the case here? -


----------



## catsmum

GreyHare said:


> Eeeek that is a tad harsh


just like using derogatory comments about junkies spewing out kids is (in a cat related debate)


----------



## Gratch

catsmum said:


> not when you insist on making derogatory statements about junkies spewing out offspring
> 
> dont dish it out if you cant take it back


I apologise if you are a substance abuser.


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> You are perfectly entitled to your opinion! as is every single person on this forum! - but IMO what is unacceptable is the constant badgering,hounding,villifying of newbies coming on with pregnant cats - which is ultimately the problem at the moment - this is NOT about yours or anyone elses for that matter opinion - its about giving advice to someone who has joined a pet forum - without having to justify their mortgage,breeding papers,what colour knickers they are wearing....etc etc - then the EDUCATION needs to start of the said member so they dont make the same mistake - but that does not happen - im sure a doctor giving a liver transplant to an alchoholic doesnt always agree with what he is doing but he has to - its his job and he has to put personal feelings and opinions aside sometimes - and if we all have the animals welfares at heart shouldnt that be the case here? -


I agree sometimes pregnancy threads go to far however a cute and fluffy approach would only justify what they are doing and encourage them to do it again.

I do think that sometimes they could do with pulling back a bit because sometiems they do go OTT but in no means should they be pink and fluffy.


----------



## Waterlily

catsmum said:


> not when you insist on making derogatory statements about junkies spewing out offspring
> 
> dont dish it out if you cant take it back


her comment was in reference to another comment you knob  but you go on insulting her for her past, seeing as your sh*t dont stink


----------



## Aurelia

suzy93074 said:


> I can put forward a logical argument - mine has been and always will be the same - I have said on many many many many occasions what you and others say is often correct - but the way it is executed is wrong! - if it wasnt wrong why do so many newbies get the hump and leave?? why has this thread and many others been created if there is not a problem??? not all are ignorant twonks who dont want to listen to you all surely! so maybe just maybe its the militant way in which you all seem to hound a person when you are supposedly giving advice - interrogating them like you are the MI5 - what right has anyone got to ask about papers of breeders and how much your finances are -(these are just a couple of the sort of invasive questions that get asked ) - there is stating opinions and giving advice and there is being downright rude and nasty -again thats just MY opinion - and one im perfectly entitled to


Jesus there's some stonking irony in your post Suzy!

There are people who have joined and had a rough time ... they are still here. I've also actually found that those people are not only still here but also now understand why some of us get so worked up when it comes to animal welfare.

Isn't it funny that this thread has now attracted the usual crowd ... just looking at all the 'likes' now  :lol:

One more thing, if you don't think your post is rude and nasty ... well you're being delusional.

Oh, and Liz having to DNA test her cats because of a 'who's the daddy' situation is not the first time. Also Queens bashing kittens against pen door to be let in ... I'm sorry but they shouldn't be in the same room for that to happen! If they are practising good quarantine procedures birthing queens would at least be in a different room.

IMO of course 

Hawksport, I'm actually quite surprised at you getting involved in all this especially in the way with which you are! Not exactly being impartial are you?  You're in fact encouraging the rest of the other 'clique' to join in. After all if you're doing it ... it must be OK right?


----------



## Shayden

catsmum said:


> just like using derogatory comments about junkies spewing out kids is (in a cat related debate)


did that specific comment hit a nerve for you? .... your making it seem personal ..... :


----------



## Gratch

hawksport said:


> Up untill now that was the only way it could be done.
> You'll be pleased to know that there will soon be a time delay of around 2hours between members posting and post showing on the forum so we can check them first.


I lol'd


----------



## Bandy

shetlandlover said:


> *I agree sometimes pregnancy threads go to far *................ *but in no means should they be pink and fluffy.*


I don't think it's anyone's business to be judgmental and condescending towards a newbie asking for help....regardless of how uneducated they may seem in the "proper" ways of rearing animals.

If they knew it all already, they wouldn't join the site to ask advice.


----------



## Waterlily

catsmum said:


> just like using derogatory comments about junkies spewing out kids is (in a cat related debate)


just cos your a bit dimmer then most today, i'll break it down for ya, her junkie comment was in reference to amethyst comparing cat breeding to human breeding  damn insulting of her as well aye comparing the two on a cat section


----------



## Amethyst

To be honest, most of the accidental litters could have been easily prevented and I guess many members are tired of hearing the same old excuses 

One pretty vocal member who had an "accidental litter" is a prime example I am afraid ... though in no way unique. Another notable "accidental litter" member, apparently helped at local rescue centre ... come on 

Same old, same old ...


----------



## Shayden

and i would think that if a junkie cant even organise their own reproductive organs then it is highly unlikely they can be bothered with the cat.... after all .... they would want to make money wouldnt they.......


----------



## suzy93074

shetlandlover said:


> I agree sometimes pregnancy threads go to far however a cute and fluffy approach would only justify what they are doing and encourage them to do it again.
> 
> I do think that sometimes they could do with pulling back a bit because sometiems they do go OTT but in no means should they be pink and fluffy.


Believe me im no pink and fluffy! and Im not asking any of you to be either! you can express your feelings you can say they should have netuered - but do we need page after page - person after person saying the same thing? it very rarely stays at just showing dissaproval it gets very personal - thats why the stickys are being prepared so we can use the link when its ready! - Im just sure there are ways to help the person without you losing sight of what you believe in - plus the cat benefits from all the good advice and the member may even learn to be different! if they dont then at least we all tried! we cannot change every single person who comes on the forum but nor can we tar everyone with the same brush


----------



## catsmum

Gratch said:


> I apologise if you are a substance abuser.


i neither smoke or drink, let alone abuse substances, my body is my temple

i just thought you - of all people- were in no postion to be so derogatory against "junkies spewing out offspring", like i said, at least they can get their pets neutered omn time, something which was beyond you


----------



## Gratch

catsmum said:


> i neither smoke or drink, let alone abuse substances, my body is my temple
> 
> i just thought you - of all people- were in no postion to be so derogatory against "junkies spewing out offspring", like i said, at least they can get their pets neutered omn time, something which was beyond you


Ah you've collected data on how many junkies neuter their cats? Brilliant, please do post it!


----------



## Waterlily

catsmum said:


> i neither smoke or drink, let alone abuse substances, my body is my temple
> 
> i just thought you - of all people- were in no postion to be so derogatory against "junkies spewing out offspring", like i said, at least they can get their pets neutered omn time, something which was beyond you


lol how ignorant you are of the real world  I was one of those junkies that had a baby and my cat had a litter before I cleaned my life up

now kiss my a** you dont know as much as you think now do you


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> but do we need page after page - person after person saying the same thing? it very rarely stays at just showing dissaproval it gets very personal


I do agree with this. It should NOT get personal. Usually I state the usual "still time to get it spayed, it costs alot to raise a litter blah blah" and then when it gets personal I usually leave the thread.

But in no way will I ever not reply to a accident thread with anything other than preventative tips, spaying advice and if its to far along then offer as much advice as I can from experience (though not much of it).

I do agree many times there is no reason for a thread to get personal.


----------



## Shayden

ahhh this is better than eastenders


----------



## Moogz

I find it adorable that any topic can come back on Gratch.

"Weather's nice today." 

"I BET IT WAS NICE WHEN YOU HAD IRRESPONSIBLE KITTENS!"

I also find it amusing that catsmum seems to be saying that doing hard narcotics to the detriment of your own life and those of your family is akin to a 'whoops' moment.


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> Isn't it funny that this thread has now attracted the usual crowd ... just looking at all the 'likes' now  :lol:


Yes, they rather remind me of the gulls that swoop (and worse) and make a h*ll of a noise when I throw scraps out on the offshoot roof :laugh:


----------



## Guest

Who's turn for popcorn?


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> Who's turn for popcorn?


Nachos and cheese for me


----------



## rocco33

> person after person saying the same thing? it very rarely stays at just showing dissaproval it gets very personal - thats why the stickys are being prepared so we can use the link when its ready! - Im just sure there are ways to help the person without you losing sight of what you believe in - plus the cat benefits from all the good advice and the member may even learn to be different! if they dont then at least we all tried! we cannot change every single person who comes on the forum but nor can we tar everyone with the same brush


No, but when someone is irresponsible enough to have an 'accidental' litter (I'm not sure they are all as accidental as many claim but that's another point), then why is it that people don't go to their vet for advice? I can only suppose they aren't prepared to pay for their mistake so they look on the internet for free advice. Shame that most don't seem prepared to put their hands in the pockets they just expect advice to be given to them on demand.


----------



## Bandy

Shayden said:


> ahhh this is better than eastenders


Im tellin ya...its now a part of my morning routine.

Make coffee...light a smoke...and watch the cat fights.

Maybe I can start a pool? Get some real interest going?


----------



## suzy93074

Amethyst said:


> Yes, they rather remind me of the gulls that swoop (and worse) and make a h*ll of a noise when I throw scraps out on the offshoot roof :laugh:


I couldnt give a rats ass about how many likes my posts get!!! its not about that!!!


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Who's turn for popcorn?


Cup of tea and Chocolate digestives are going down a treat here  not keen on popcorn.


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> .
> 
> You know some of the things I have read on here makes me wonder if a minority of members are still living in the dark ages :001_unsure:


Well what do you expect with the price of leccy these days


----------



## Bandy

hawksport said:


> I don't disagree with a lot of what is said, just the way it is said.
> Are there rules somewhere that say I have to be impartial and not have my own opinion?


Not in the least. As MOD you are still a member first...just one tasked with keeping the forum ran smoothly


----------



## Waterlily

Moogz said:


> I find it adorable that any topic can come back on Gratch.
> 
> "Weather's nice today."
> 
> "I BET IT WAS NICE WHEN YOU HAD IRRESPONSIBLE KITTENS!"
> 
> I also find it amusing that catsmum seems to be saying that doing hard narcotics to the detriment of your own life and those of your family is akin to a 'whoops' moment.


lol bit arrogant isnt it, nice diversion to the posts they ignore cos they cant actually answer them


----------



## Amethyst

rocco33 said:


> No, but when someone is irresponsible enough to have an 'accidental' litter (I'm not sure they are all as accidental as many claim but that's another point), then why is it that people don't go to their vet for advice? I can only suppose they aren't prepared to pay for their mistake so they look on the internet for free advice. Shame that most don't seem prepared to put their hands in the pockets they just expect advice to be given to them on demand.


Think there is a lot of truth in that ...


----------



## suzy93074

shetlandlover said:


> I do agree with this. It should NOT get personal. Usually I state the usual "still time to get it spayed, it costs alot to raise a litter blah blah" and then when it gets personal I usually leave the thread.
> 
> But in no way will I ever not reply to a accident thread with anything other than preventative tips, spaying advice and if its to far along then offer as much advice as I can from experience (though not much of it).
> 
> I do agree many times there is no reason for a thread to get personal.[/QUOTE
> 
> Good post!


----------



## Guest

GreyHare said:


> Cup of tea and Chocolate digestives are going down a treat here  not keen on popcorn.


Call I call a break in the discussions please? five minutes should suffice!
I want to go wee wee


----------



## shells

DoubleTrouble said:


> Who's turn for popcorn?


yum yum


Amethyst said:


> Nachos and cheese for me


:nono::nono::nono: toffee pop corn yumyum yum


----------



## catsmum

Gratch said:


> Ah you've collected data on how many junkies neuter their cats? Brilliant, please do post it!


as soon as you post your data on "junkies spewing out offspring every 12 months"
oh and i dont mean the daily mail
i really did think that someone like you, who expected a whole load of compassion and understanding from us in here for your "mistake", would have been able to tone a bit more compassion and tolerance for "junkies" 
again though, as is so common in here, its do as i say not as i do
ok for you to let your cat get "accidentaly" pregnant (MONTHS after a false alarm pregnancy)
but a "junkiie" you feel free to slag off, speaks volumes


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> Call I call a break in the discussions please? five minutes should suffice!
> I want to go wee wee


I want to go and make a sandwich ...


----------



## Guest

rocco33 said:


> No, but when someone is irresponsible enough to have an 'accidental' litter (I'm not sure they are all as accidental as many claim but that's another point), then why is it that people don't go to their vet for advice? I can only suppose they aren't prepared to pay for their mistake so they look on the internet for free advice. Shame that most don't seem prepared to put their hands in the pockets they just expect advice to be given to them on demand.


Spot on Rocco! (as usual) Dogs cats does it matter, they all reproduce the same!


----------



## Aurelia

hawksport said:


> I don't disagree with a lot of what is said, just the way it is said.
> Are there rules somewhere that say I have to be impartial and not have my own opinion?


Not that I'm aware of, but IMO as a mod it's not exactly setting a good example 

You know, one thing that really gets under my skin about the whole thing ...

If you are responsible with your pets you will never intentionally harm them. If you're not you are putting them at risk (this includes letting them have accidental litters that CAN be prevented).

How hard is it to do everything you can to keep your pets safe?

When it comes to breeders ... If you take on the responsibility of breeding stock you should again (IMO) make sure you do your very best for them, or not breed at all!

What really really gets me is that it IS mostly common sense .

Can we quit with the hating now and just think about the animals?

You only have to go and read gskinners horror story about a queen she took in from rescue to understand just how wrong it can go. Avoiding situations like that is what we all care about isn't it?

Meh .. happy freaking Sunday!


----------



## catsmum

rocco33 said:


> No, but when someone is irresponsible enough to have an 'accidental' litter (I'm not sure they are all as accidental as many claim but that's another point), then why is it that people don't go to their vet for advice? I can only suppose they aren't prepared to pay for their mistake so they look on the internet for free advice. Shame that most don't seem prepared to put their hands in the pockets they just expect advice to be given to them on demand.


excellent post rocco, they just want free vet advice so they can save money. moggy litters have to be done on the cheap after all.


----------



## classixuk

Aurelia said:


> Isn't it funny that this thread has now attracted the usual crowd ... just looking at all the 'likes' now  :lol:


Can't help it. I replied to this thread yesterday so now I get email updates just like any other thread.

Some of the posts are worthy of a like. Lines such as, "Sorry if you are a substance abuser" make me LOL, but then again I have a dry sense of humour.

Sorry to interrupt everyone...please carry on...


----------



## Waterlily

catsmum said:


> as soon as you post your data on "junkies spewing out offspring every 12 months"
> oh and i dont mean the daily mail
> i really did think that someone like you, who expected a whole load of compassion and understanding from us in here for your "mistake", would have been able to tone a bit more compassion and tolerance for "junkies"
> again though, as is so common in here, its do as i say not as i do
> ok for you to let your cat get "accidentaly" pregnant (MONTHS after a false alarm pregnancy)
> but a "junkiie" you feel free to slag off, speaks volumes


most peeps with a brain cell or two know there is countless single mums who are teens or junkies with kids, wake up to the real world and quit trying to cut gratch down for one comment when you havent had the balls to reply to many others


----------



## Bandy

rocco33 said:


> No, but when someone is irresponsible enough to have an 'accidental' litter (I'm not sure they are all as accidental as many claim but that's another point), then *why is it that people don't go to their vet for advice? * I can only suppose they aren't prepared to pay for their mistake so *they look on the internet for free advice.* *Shame that most don't seem prepared to put their hands in the pockets they just expect advice to be given to them *on demand.


If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were begging for areas like this to be closed.

What's a shame is when someone opens themselves up, baring themselves essentially, and get blasted for it instead of some decent advice.


----------



## suzy93074

All of what you say Auriella is true! but unfortunately not all have the same idea! thats what you as an experienced cat person and the others are here for! to show them the right path but its not working like that  because personal opinions too often get in the way - hence all the threads about it - I know you and others dislike me and think I know sfa about cats and thats fine! you can think that but my aim is to help the cats too!


----------



## simplysardonic

I've just got a new bottle of Rescue Remedy in, would anyone like a couple of drops?
'To comfort & reassure'
you know you want to


----------



## Amethyst

simplysardonic said:


> I've just got a new bottle of Rescue Remedy in, would anyone like a couple of drops?
> 'To comfort & reassure'
> you know you want to


I think one or two might need something a tad stronger than Rescue Remedy


----------



## classixuk

catsmum said:


> excellent post rocco, they just want free vet advice so they can save money. moggy litters have to be done on the cheap after all.


If someone wants free vet advice, they can get it at the PDSA.

I had a moggy litter and it wasn't cheap.

God help you if you ever have a teenage daughter who gets pregnant accidentally! I don't like to think what it would do to your nerves!


----------



## Gratch

catsmum said:


> as soon as you post your data on "junkies spewing out offspring every 12 months"
> oh and i dont mean the daily mail
> i really did think that someone like you, who expected a whole load of compassion and understanding from us in here for your "mistake", would have been able to tone a bit more compassion and tolerance for "junkies"
> again though, as is so common in here, its do as i say not as i do
> ok for you to let your cat get "accidentaly" pregnant (MONTHS after a false alarm pregnancy)
> but a "junkiie" you feel free to slag off, speaks volumes


: Fancy ignoring the fact that I have 4 adorable mistakes cuddled up on my lap? I was being extreme, and a little bit tongue in cheek. I have compassion for nearly everyone but did not expect anything from anyone here. You wouldn't of known about it at all if someone OH worked with hadn't of let slip and YOU wouldn't be constantly banging on about it. Though I will say this, that person letting slip about the pregnancy did save one of my kittens lives since I got alot of good and helpful advice from forum members when I was told she was basically going to die.


----------



## Moogz

Brilliant, I'll break out the gin!


----------



## Guest

simplysardonic said:


> I've just got a new bottle of Rescue Remedy in, would anyone like a couple of drops?
> 'To comfort & reassure'
> you know you want to


I reckon someone should pass the waccy baccy round meself


----------



## Dozymoo

These arguments go round and round unfortunately! 

There is no denying that there are rescue problems in the UK. There are kittens being born to unhealth tested parents unnecessarily and it frustrates me every spring seeing the same excuses (she snuck out the window, my child left the door open, I didn't know she was calling). It's upsetting when there are breeders out there putting their heart and soul into the kittens and then it appears that there are other people out there just trying to make a quick buck from their unneutered girl.

But seeing the constant attacking of people who come to this forum for help is just as frustrating. It doesn't achieve anything. All it does is scare people off and the kittens suffer. Remember these are the people looking for help and trying to learn how best to care for their cats. The people who do not care do not bother with forums! 

By all means advise on the options for termination and spaying and explain the rescue issues. But some of you could really achieve so much more if you were more careful about your phrasing and stopped jumping to conclusions. Sarcastic comments, capitalisation and constant exclamation points come across as rude and aggressive and don't achieve anything positive.

Of course, that's just my opinion and I'm sure you won't all agree with me.


----------



## Shayden

dont suppose anyone wants a slice of yesterdays left over pizza... its got anchovies on it tho ........


----------



## Guest

> If someone wants free vet advice, they can get it at the PDSA.


Not true. If you want the help from the PDSA you have to fit their criteria and live in the area thats covered by the PDSA many people are not covered by them.


----------



## suzy93074

Shayden said:


> dont suppose anyone wants a slice of yesterdays left over pizza... its got anchovies on it tho ........


Just had roast chicken dinner so im all good thanks!


----------



## shells

shayden said:


> dont suppose anyone wants a slice of yesterdays left over pizza... Its got anchovies on it tho ........


anchovies ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


----------



## simplysardonic

DoubleTrouble said:


> I reckon someone should pass the waccy baccy round meself


you wish is my command


----------



## rocco33

> God help you if you ever have a teenage daughter who gets pregnant accidentally! I don't like to think what it would do to your nerves!


Well as my daughter is no longer a teenager that's not going to happen 



> If someone wants free vet advice, they can get it at the PDSA.
> 
> I had a moggy litter and it wasn't cheap.


Well, then why don't they go to the PDSA?

Of course litters (whether moggy or pedigree) aren't cheap. But that's a price someone has to pay for the consequences of their lack of care.


----------



## Shayden

shells said:


> anchovies ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


oi oi.... dont ewww at my anchovies... its not about YOU remember... its about what the cat wants...


----------



## simplysardonic

shetlandlover said:


> Not true. If you want the help from the PDSA you have to fit their criteria and live in the area thats covered by the PDSA many people are not covered by them.


You can apply wherever you are, I think
IIRC PDSA is for illnesses, injuries etc, they aren't involves in the mechanics of breeding
I could be wrong though


----------



## Waterlily

Gratch said:


> : Fancy ignoring the fact that I have 4 adorable mistakes cuddled up on my lap? I was being extreme, and a little bit tongue in cheek. I have compassion for nearly everyone but did not expect anything from anyone here. You wouldn't of known about it at all if someone OH worked with hadn't of let slip and YOU wouldn't be constantly banging on about it. Though I will say this, that person letting slip about the pregnancy did save one of my kittens lives since I got alot of good and helpful advice from forum members when I was told she was basically going to die.


Lovely how these kind ladies rub the past into your face instead of actually seeing you as you are today  and why feel you have to explain or apologize to them who the **** are they anyway ? nobody important except in there own minds. Must be grand to sit on ya fat a** all day preaching aye, ahhh what a life  wish we could be so lucky


----------



## shells

Shayden said:


> oi oi.... dont ewww at my anchovies... its not about YOU remember... its about what the cat wants...


LMAO still a mega EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW though


----------



## Shayden

you are wrong if your not in the catchment area you wont be helped


----------



## suzy93074

simplysardonic said:


> you wish is my command


Gis a drag oh wise one!


----------



## Guest

simplysardonic said:


> You can apply wherever you are, I think
> IIRC PDSA is for illnesses, injuries etc, they aren't involves in the mechanics of breeding
> I could be wrong though


No you can't - or at least you couldn't I tried for one of my elderly neighbours our nearest is around 25 miles away.


----------



## lizward

hawksport said:


> Up untill now that was the only way it could be done.
> You'll be pleased to know that there will soon be a time delay of around 2hours between members posting and post showing on the forum so we can check them first.


I don't like that idea AT ALL. What happens in the event of people needing urgent advice?

Liz


----------



## rocco33

> But seeing the constant attacking of people who come to this forum for help is just as frustrating. It doesn't achieve anything. *All it does is scare people off and the kittens suffer. *Remember these are the people looking for help and trying to learn how best to care for their cats.


Sorry, but I find it quite offensive to blame a forum (or members of it) for kittens (or any other animal) suffering. It is not a forum that has caused it but the owner/breeder if they suffer. If they are looking for help then that is what the vetinerary profession is for.

I know nothing about cat breeding (and very little about cats come to that), but you could replace 'cat' for 'dog' and the problems of accidental litters are identical. I will not, on principal, give any advice to irresponsible breeding, apart from mismate/spay etc.


----------



## Bandy

DoubleTrouble said:


> I reckon someone should pass the waccy baccy round meself


Now THAT would make for an interesting morning.


----------



## Gratch

I don't think people post to avoid vet bills. Some, yes but the majority I don't think so. Alot of people post because their vet doesn't give them as much information as they need and want to learn from others. Some post in the middle of the night while they wait to be able to go see the vet (when it isn't an emergency situation). It's daft to say they don't want to have to pay out. I honestly doubt most people would be here if they didn't care about their pets.


----------



## simplysardonic

Shayden said:


> you are wrong if your not in the catchment area you wont be helped


They helped us 2 years ago & we don't live in the catchment area, they can still contribute towards veterinary costs


----------



## classixuk

Shayden said:


> dont suppose anyone wants a slice of yesterdays left over pizza... its got anchovies on it tho ........


I'll have the pizza....my moggy can have the anchovies. 



shetlandlover said:


> Not true. If you want the help from the PDSA you have to fit their criteria and live in the area thats covered by the PDSA many people are not covered by them.


Nope.

Out in the real world, if someone doesn't fit the PDSA criteria (i.e. too rich), they simply find someone who is and their pet becomes the property of that person for the PDSA visit. Sad, but true.

I think it's hilarious though that some of the people in this section reckon that newbies are asking them questions rather than paying for a vet's visit. I'd like to join their panel but my vertigo kicks in terribly when I'm looking down on others from a very great height.


----------



## Amethyst

Gratch said:


> I don't think people post to avoid vet bills. Some, yes but the majority I don't think so. Alot of people post because their vet doesn't give them as much information as they need and want to learn from others. Some post in the middle of the night while they wait to be able to go see the vet (when it isn't an emergency situation). It's daft to say they don't want to have to pay out. I honestly doubt most people would be here if they didn't care about their pets.


But suggest to them to put thier hands into their pockets and pay for vet visit and "POOF" they disappear ... in many cases 
Or worse still, explain spaying is still possible ...


----------



## rocco33

> You can apply wherever you are, I think
> IIRC PDSA is for illnesses, injuries etc, they aren't involves in the mechanics of breeding
> I could be wrong though


I have never had any dealings with the PDSA or know how they work, but I have heard that they will not give care in pregnancies - they are for emergencies/illness only.


----------



## catsmum

classixuk said:


> If someone wants free vet advice, they can get it at the PDSA.


not everyone is entitled to free vet advice from the pdsa
they have to be in receipt of certain benefits (housing benefit and or council tax benefit i think) and they have to live in an area that the particular pdsa branch covers, not everywhere in the country is covered

and even those who do manage to get their "neuter for free" vouchers from CP or PDSA, like gratch, the vouchers often take a week or two to arrive and, you guessed it, keeping that door closed for a whole fortnight is impossible


----------



## Amethyst

classixuk said:


> Out in the real world, if someone doesn't fit the PDSA criteria (i.e. too rich), they simply find someone who is and their pet becomes the property of that person for the PDSA visit. Sad, but true.


Speak for yourself ...


----------



## classixuk

lizward said:


> I don't like that idea AT ALL. What happens in the event of people needing urgent advice?
> 
> Liz


They'll get it, instead of a barrage of insults about the fact they let their cat out of the door.



According to some on this thread, you shouldn't try to save money at the vets by asking for advice here anyway.


----------



## Waterlily

Amethyst said:


> But suggest to them to put thier hands into their pockets and pay for vet visit and "POOF" they disappear ... in many cases
> Or worse still, explain spaying is still possible ...


ever thought they went to the vet  and I have posted in pet sections for advice at the same time or the night before seeing a vet, to share it and get others say on there own experiences and also cos its a nervous wait, so quit judging all people that ask as not going elsewhere as well, or getting real expert help how the f*ck do you know what they are doing when offline.


----------



## Aurelia

Dozymoo said:


> These arguments go round and round unfortunately!
> 
> There is no denying that there are rescue problems in the UK. There are kittens being born to unhealth tested parents unnecessarily and it frustrates me every spring seeing the same excuses (she snuck out the window, my child left the door open, I didn't know she was calling). It's upsetting when there are breeders out there putting their heart and soul into the kittens and then it appears that there are other people out there just trying to make a quick buck from their unneutered girl.
> 
> But seeing the constant attacking of people who come to this forum for help is just as frustrating. It doesn't achieve anything. All it does is scare people off and the kittens suffer. Remember these are the people looking for help and trying to learn how best to care for their cats. The people who do not care do not bother with forums!
> 
> By all means advise on the options for termination and spaying and explain the rescue issues. But some of you could really achieve so much more if you were more careful about your phrasing and stopped jumping to conclusions. Sarcastic comments, capitalisation and constant exclamation points come across as rude and aggressive and don't achieve anything positive.
> 
> Of course, that's just my opinion and I'm sure you won't all agree with me.


You would think looking from the outside you were right.

Trouble is IMO you're not. We have had members come to the forums with a 'situation' who do go and get their cat spayed. Those threads are quick and straight to the point, and get lost amongst the sea of other threads where it goes the other way.

The trouble is that I don't think any of those who come here for pregnancy advice are doing so because they have any other aim than to have a litter of kittens.

That is why they get offended so quickly and the threads deteriorate the way they do. It's not because of how any of us posts (well not really) ... it's because there are people who aren't afraid to say "Ermm excuse me but spaying your cat would be better for her and all those cats out there in rescue".

I'll give you an example ... a long standing memeber recently posted about her litter of moggie kittens. As far as I'm aware no one has asked her why the litter exists. I know why, but to be honest even I feel intimidated by the thought of speaking up. I just know it would cause a forum war 

Plus you also see more and more that people come on and state "She's pregnant, I am keeping the kittens no matter what you say ... and I'm just after tips". I wouldn't be at all surprised if those people are current members signing up under different names 

One thing is for sure ... speaking out against this kind of thing is not going to do any harm to the animals, those with a conscience will do right by their animals. Being quite or fluffy will, because then it becomes acceptable and people won't think twice about putting their animals in danger. IMOOC.


----------



## classixuk

Amethyst said:


> Speak for yourself ...


Did I say I was?


----------



## Amethyst

Waterlily said:


> how the f*ck do you know what they are doing when offline.


More charm and eloquence ...


----------



## Shayden

hmmm i wonder what would happen if i sprayed a slice of anchovie pizza with cat nip..........


----------



## simplysardonic

This is directly quoted from the PDSA website


> You will need to contact a local private veterinary practice to receive treatment for your pet, a list can be found on the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons website or Yell.com.
> 
> If you are in receipt of Housing Benefit or Council Tax Benefit* PDSA may be able to make a contribution towards outstanding veterinary costs. This is referred to as PDSA PetAid request service.
> 
> For further information, you or your private veterinary practice, may contact PDSA on 0800 731 2502 during the hours of 9.00am to 5.00pm Monday to Friday.
> 
> *Please note that only Council Tax Benefit can be accepted. Other reductions in Council Tax e.g. single person discount, second adult rebate and council tax exemption do not qualify


May be useful for your elderly neighbours DT


----------



## Gratch

catsmum said:


> not everyone is entitled to free vet advice from the pdsa
> they have to be in receipt of certain benefits (housing benefit and or council tax benefit i think) and they have to live in an area that the particular pdsa branch covers, not everywhere in the country is covered
> 
> and even those who do manage to get their "neuter for free" vouchers from CP or PDSA, like gratch, the vouchers often take a week or two to arrive and, you guessed it, keeping that door closed for a whole fortnight is impossible


Didn't get free vouchers, got money off. Vouchers were forgotten by my local Cat's Protection, when they arrived vet said she was pregnant. Said it all before, think you may need to get your memory checked as I'm getting concerned about you


----------



## shells

catsmum said:


> not everyone is entitled to free vet advice from the pdsa
> they have to be in receipt of certain benefits (housing benefit and or council tax benefit i think) and they have to live in an area that the particular pdsa branch covers, not everywhere in the country is covered
> 
> and even those who do manage to get their "neuter for free" vouchers from CP or PDSA, like gratch, the vouchers often take a week or two to arrive and, you guessed it, keeping that door closed for a whole fortnight is impossible


not sure if it is well known but a lot of vets now can issue the vouchers there and then. i have recently had buster nutered and due to being on a low income was entitled to a part payment i just had to take proof of my workingtax credit with me. they filled in the form whilst doing the prechecks. although you only get this for one pet


----------



## rocco33

> Out in the real world, if someone doesn't fit the PDSA criteria (i.e. too rich), they simply find someone who is and their pet becomes the property of that person for the PDSA visit. Sad, but true.


Out in the real world or out in your world?

I'm glad to say that I dont' know anyone who is dishonest enough to do that They take responsibility for their own animals and don't sponge of charities that are there for those who really need their services.


----------



## Waterlily

Amethyst said:


> More charm and eloquence ...


oops I'm sorry  I should have put this  after my post to look sweet like you do


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> The trouble is that I don't think any of those who come here for pregnancy advice are doing so because they have any other aim than to have a litter of kittens.
> 
> That is why they get offended so quickly and the threads deteriorate the way they do.


And that Aurelia just about sums it all up in one or two sentences


----------



## gorgeous

Just a suggestion....anyone seen the weather outside? 

It is blooming gorgeous...just like me lol......I am going to pour myself some Pinot and sit in my garden and CHILL out......life is too short don't you think?

Come on, get out and get some sun on ya old and creaky bones...never know might cheer some of you UP!!!!:cryin:


----------



## catsmum

rocco33 said:


> Sorry, but I find it quite offensive to blame a forum (or members of it) for kittens (or any other animal) suffering. It is not a forum that has caused it but the owner/breeder if they suffer. If they are looking for help then that is what the vetinerary profession is for.
> 
> I know nothing about cat breeding (and very little about cats come to that), but you could replace 'cat' for 'dog' and the problems of accidental litters are identical. I will not, on principal, give any advice to irresponsible breeding, apart from mismate/spay etc.


nope and neither will I, and neither will plenty other ethical forum members. by helping moggy breeders we are just condoning the fact that they do it.

i will however supply any moggy breeder in need of help with the number of a vet in their area

and it is laughable to try and blame people like myself or Aurelia or Gskinner or Amethyst, ShetlandLover etc (to name but a few) for pregnant cats suffering. Its not our fault their cat is prenant or suffering, and it is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY as owner to get their cats to a vet if there is any question at all that their cat is suffering, if they cant afford the vet bills, they should make sure their cat is neutered


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Well I'm lost!


----------



## Bandy

Amethyst said:


> *But suggest to them to put thier hands into their pockets and pay for vet visit and "POOF" they disappear *... in many cases
> Or worse still, explain spaying is still possible ...


Ya ever think that may be because they thought that a good idea and didn't need anymore..."insight" from the great panel?


----------



## Waterlily

catsmum said:


> and it is laughable to try and blame people like myself or Aurelia or Gskinner or Amethyst, ShetlandLover etc (to name but a few) for pregnant cats suffering.


its laughable you mentioned your lil clique when no one else listed you all  but we already knew


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Bandy said:


> Ya ever think that may be because they thought that a good idea and didn't need anymore..."insight" from the great panel?


If they didnt need insight, it would be because they had researched for themselves and looked after their animals rather than needing to come and visit the 'great panel'

Truth is most are thick and wouldnt know a kitten from a chicken.


----------



## Gratch

Waterlily said:


> its laughable you mentioned your lil clique when no one else listed you all  but we already knew


Edit: posted too late!


----------



## Amethyst

Waterlily said:


> its laughable you mentioned your lil clique when no one else listed you all  but we already knew


Mmmmm.... pot, kettle and black come to mind Hun


----------



## lizward

hawksport said:


> It was a joke.


O, thank goodness for that!

Liz


----------



## Guest

catsmum said:


> and even those who do manage to get their "neuter for free" vouchers from CP or PDSA, like gratch, the vouchers often take a week or two to arrive and, you guessed it, keeping that door closed for a whole fortnight is impossible


I have never used the PDSA however I did get one of my cats neutered on a CP voucher. I went in with money and the vet said no, no, we have vouchers here. But my other two cats were spayed/neutered by me without any help from CP or the PDSA. Though I believe my vet was lucky to have them in as I do know that other vets make you wait.

My girl cost me £60 to spay, because she "may" have been pregnant (not from getting out) I rushed her in 4 months old to be spayed she came back from the vets with flea's, except I didnt notice for a few days. When I did notice I spent a small fortune on flea products for all the cats and dogs. (and house).

Needless to say I didnt use that vet again....

(and they nicked my cats fave towel......)

Anyway,

Where there is a will there is a way! Or at least thats what I believe.
My mums female cat's just come out of heat and was litrally doing her best to try and escape (even ripped my mums curtains trying) but my mum bought a cat crate and when my mum could not be sure that the house would be secure (bringing in shopping, my brother taking his bike out) she would put her in the crate with her water and toys until she had the door locked again.

With 2 kids (1 being very very disabled and has no understanding of anything) and being disabled herself she is the most likely to have an escaped cat however my mum has been there done that and bought the t-shirt some 20+ years ago.

She let her cat out didnt realize it was in heat, it got pregnant the day came and she had problems. Mum took her into the vet and lost both the kittens and mum.

Needless to say she's dead against any form of pregnancy unless planned and knowledgeable people involved.


----------



## rocco33

> Ya ever think that may be because they thought that a good idea and didn't need anymore..."insight" from the great panel?


Well, if that is the case the advice given will have been good - so what's the problem?


----------



## Shayden

i think if they can manage to come online and look up a forum then im sure they can find a vet in their area without u telling them.......

i might be wrong tho


----------



## Amethyst

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Truth is most are thick and wouldnt know a kitten from a chicken.


Oooooooooooooooooh I think you may have touched a nerve there with a couple  :lol:

I feel a poem coming on


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Shayden said:


> i think if they can manage to come online and look up a forum then im sure they can find a vet in their area without u telling them.......
> 
> i might be wrong tho


Then why havent they? As in many cases they havent...

(and to Shetandlover, my vet nicked my cat bed! I'd have been more annoyed if they had actually ever used it...)


----------



## classixuk

rocco33 said:


> Out in the real world or out in your world?
> 
> I'm glad to say that I dont' know anyone who is dishonest enough to do that They take responsibility for their own animals and don't sponge of charities that are there for those who really need their services.


Did I say it was out in my world? I said it was in the real world.

The same real world where hoodies mug pensioners. I did write, "sad, but true".

So glad you think you don't know anybody who is dishonest enough to do that. Do you interview every person you meet and run a CRB check on them then?

In my world, what people get up to is their own business. If I don't ask too many questions, I won't be told many lies. I know people who have been to prison for murder, drugs etc. That's their life, not mine. Does it make me a bad person because these people have such histories?


----------



## Bandy

gloworm*mushroom said:


> If they didnt need insight, it would be because they had researched for themselves and looked after their animals rather than needing to come and visit the 'great panel'


Researched you say...

funny...I included asking ADVICE in that category. Hence the use of forums and subforums such as here.



gloworm*mushroom said:


> Truth is most are thick and wouldnt know a kitten from a chicken.


And here is the judgement that makes some think being an arrogant ass to them is justified. :nono:


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Research should come BEFORE they get the pet, so it should be neutered. It shouldnt be 'oh noes I have a boy cat and a girl cat and now one is pregnant' 

I mean you dont even need to research to know that :S


----------



## classixuk

gorgeous said:


> Just a suggestion....anyone seen the weather outside?
> 
> It is blooming gorgeous...just like me lol......I am going to pour myself some Pinot and sit in my garden and CHILL out......life is too short don't you think?
> 
> Come on, get out and get some sun on ya old and creaky bones...never know might cheer some of you UP!!!!:cryin:


Pinot again? Second day running?

Sounds fabulous! LOL Might join you later.


----------



## Amethyst

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Research should come BEFORE they get the pet, so it should be neutered. It shouldnt be 'oh noes I have a boy cat and a girl cat and now one is pregnant'
> 
> I mean you dont even need to research to know that :S


It's called a "planned accident"


----------



## Shayden

shetlandlover said:


> Where there is a will there is a way! Or at least thats what I believe.
> My mums female cat's just come out of heat and was litrally doing her best to try and escape (even ripped my mums curtains trying) but my mum bought a cat crate and when my mum could not be sure that the house would be secure (bringing in shopping, my brother taking his bike out) she would put her in the crate with her water and toys until she had the door locked again.
> 
> With 2 kids (1 being very very disabled and has no understanding of anything) and being disabled herself she is the most likely to have an escaped cat however my mum has been there done that and bought the t-shirt some 20+ years ago.
> 
> She let her cat out didnt realize it was in heat, it got pregnant the day came and she had problems. Mum took her into the vet and lost both the kittens and mum.
> 
> Needless to say she's dead against any form of pregnancy unless planned and knowledgeable people involved.


so your mums cat accidentally got pregnant... and learnt her lesson... imagin if she came here looking for help and got the responces that some of you dish out!.... i suspect she would have been horrified!

my point being ... it was an accident and it hasnt happened again... other people have accidents too but its ok to treat them like crap to get your point across!


----------



## Bandy

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Research should come BEFORE they get the pet, so it should be neutered. It shouldnt be 'oh noes I have a boy cat and a girl cat and now one is pregnant'
> 
> I mean you dont even need to research to know that :S


Again, you're making assumptions and judgements based on your "expertise".

You haven't a clue what goes on in the lives of most or even take into account the lack of "experience" on the part of those new to owning pets.

Shame really....it does cast a sad light on the usefulness of areas like this.


----------



## rocco33

> Research should come BEFORE they get the pet, so it should be neutered. It shouldnt be 'oh noes I have a boy cat and a girl cat and now one is pregnant'
> 
> I mean you dont even need to research to know that :S


Completely agree and I'd add the the cost of spaying/neutering should be added to the other costs including purchase price when deciding on whether on can afford to get a pet. But having read so many posts about people who cannot afford to neuter their pets, it would seem many don't bother to take it into account


----------



## Gratch

Right so from what you lot have said several times, if I say I just wanted a litter of kittens then you'll stop using them against me in every single cat thread I dare to post in? : Fine. I wanted a litter of kittens (or I do now, that's why I'm keeping them all). Now shut the heck up about it


----------



## Waterlily

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Research should come BEFORE they get the pet, so it should be neutered. It shouldnt be 'oh noes I have a boy cat and a girl cat and now one is pregnant'
> 
> I mean you dont even need to research to know that :S


so some people eff up and get the pet first, are you GOD  they come to the site cos they care or want to learn, yet are greeted with "I'm up myself and better then you" posts instead, sure be firm and give them advice but do it without trying to be a world class expert and with a tone of judgment ffs.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Bandy said:


> Again, you're making assumptions and judgements based on your "expertise".
> 
> You haven't a clue what goes on in the lives of most or even take into account the lack of "experience" on the part of those new to owning pets.
> 
> Shame really....it does cast a sad light on the usefulness of areas like this.


Okay then, I will stop making assumptions and listen to you for a bit:

Give me one good reason for a cat to get accidently pregnant. 
Give me one good reason not to spay or neuter your cat when it gets to, lets say, 6 months.


----------



## Moogz

I have to say, I only really joined this place for the banter, and I avoid this particular board from what Gratch has showed me.

There may be some good advice on here, I don't know but Jesus Christ, I have never seen such a mean-spirited bunch of people, and I used to visit 4chan -_-

If people come for advice, give it to them, or don't, that's your call. I'd like to think that advice is given out of concern rather than to judge.

Personally, I would be really reluctant to post any of my questions here because of how venomous people can be. Surely this is not the intent of this forum? All you, sitting so high on your pedestals need to come down among us 'common serfs' and take a look at yourselves.

When the words "Pet forums" are said two things come to mind.

1) Some weird S&M discussion board
2) A place for friendly advice, mutual interest in animals and the occasional lolcat image or some such

What I did not expect was for people to *constantly harp on a mistake* made by a member, and use said mistake at *any given opportunity* in a frankly childish attempt to dismiss her words.

Mistakes sometimes need to be made for people to learn from them.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Waterlily said:


> so some people eff up and get the pet first, are you GOD  they come to the site cos they care or want to learn, yet are greeted with "I'm up myself and better then you" posts instead, sure be firm and give them advice but do it without trying to be a world class expert and with a tone of judgment ffs.


Get the pet first and let it get pregnant?

Animals are a responsibility, and not caring for it properly is abuse in my opinion. Letting kittens get pregnant, is abuse.

I dont claim to be a world class expert, not at all, but I know how to properly care for my pets.

I got my first kitten two weeks after deciding I wanted one, pretty 'rushed' in my opinion. In that two weeks I leant everything I needed to, it took me barely any time at all. Theres not a huge wealth of info to learn, the basics of cat health are very simple.


----------



## catsmum

Gratch said:


> Right so from what you lot have said several times, if I say I just wanted a litter of kittens then you'll stop using them against me in every single cat thread I dare to post in? : Fine. I wanted a litter of kittens (or I do now, that's why I'm keeping them all). Now shut the heck up about it


stop trying to shut people up
youre not a mod
remember
youre not the only one allowed to post
and i will shut up about your accidental-deliberate litter of moggies when i feel like it, not when you tell me to


----------



## classixuk

gloworm*mushroom said:


> If they didnt need insight, it would be because they had researched for themselves and looked after their animals rather than needing to come and visit the 'great panel'
> 
> *Truth is most are thick and wouldnt know a kitten from a chicken*.


That sums it up really. You guys (as much as you say you don't) really do pre-judge new members who come to the forum asking for help.

If they didn't care about their animals they wouldn't even be here looking for help and advice. Don't you see that?

They would just let the cat have it's litter and then dump the kittens in a plastic bag.

In my opinion, it's the 'great panel' who have the issues here, not the visitors. Perhaps if you had more control in your real lives, you wouldn't try so hard to be harsh, judgemental and so controlling on here towards people who come seeking an education?

Or were you born knowing all there is to know about cats?


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> its laughable you mentioned your lil clique when no one else listed you all  but we already knew


I'm in a clique??????? 

Cool.....I have never been in one of those before.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Moogz said:


> Mistakes sometimes need to be made for people to learn from them.


But the mistakes are to the detriment of the animal! It may hurt your bank balance and your stress levels, but its the cat who has a litter to carry and look after.

Forgetting to put oil in your car is a 'innocent mistake' Its messes up your car, and you have to pay for your mistake.

In these cases its the animal paying for the mistake. And that is why I cannot be 'nice' about it.


----------



## Guest

I dont think anyone can deny that there is a very depressing situation in rescues Nationwide. Its heartbreaking to see the many animals in rescues many of them PTS there are not enough homes, very few foster homes. Im not a cat owner but am heavily involved in volunteering and fundraising for rescue centres and taking an active part in seeking homes, sharing information and positively educating people. 

I am a very active volunteer for Beagle Welfare and after Christmas the situation was so critical we didnt think we could survive. I know I have fought tooth and nail to raise money, promote the cause, home check within days of receiving questionnaires, my phone is available 24/7 to anyone needing support and I do NOT EVER give up until I have achieved and succeeded. 

We should be fighting on behalf of the animals not against each other. Up and down the country rescues need people to foster, to rehome, to walk dogs, to help clean kennels/catteries, POSITIVELY promote animal welfare, to support and encourage responsible pet ownership.

Getting rude, abusive and intimidating is only going to exacerbate a situation. If someone has taken the time to create a membership to ask for advice then they obviously care enough to do sopuppy/kitten farmers up and down the country do not care. I get so angry when I get a call from someone saying they are bored of their dog, had an accidental litter, have a new puppy etc but Id rather support that person through the process professionally, I will however be honest and tell that person that I am very upset with the situation but I am here to helpwell thats all I can do  That doesnt mean I dont get off the phone so angry/ in tears/ or lose sleep over it most of the time I do. Id have completely failed as an area officer and animal lover if I did get ratty or high and mighty as Id make things worse for everyone involved. Its natural when we care so much to get so emotional but anger doesnt find these animals homes, it doesnt raise money and it doesnt motivate others to take an active part. 

What we really need is more people to understand that yes there is a problem but the way we look at the problem is the difference between making a difference to these animals and completely f***ing up a situation. Bickering will not make a difference to anyone.

And now Im waffling again


----------



## Amethyst

Little fairy in dismay, wonders why they will not spay?
Why they do not see the need. Rather let their kitties breed.

Rather wait till deed is done. Then to forum quickly run.
When they do not get what they wanted. Run off crying disappointed.


----------



## classixuk

catsmum said:


> stop trying to shut people up
> youre not a mod
> remember
> youre not the only one allowed to post
> and i will shut up about your accidental-deliberate litter of moggies when i feel like it, not when you tell me to


If a member has asked you to kindly refrain from posting about something in their life, you should do as they ask. The member and their life are not your toy.

Perhaps you need a cooling off period?


----------



## Aurelia

Moogz said:


> I have to say, I only really joined this place for the banter, and I avoid this particular board from what Gratch has showed me.
> 
> There may be some good advice on here, I don't know but Jesus Christ, I have never seen such a mean-spirited bunch of people, and I used to visit 4chan -_-
> 
> If people come for advice, give it to them, or don't, that's your call. I'd like to think that advice is given out of concern rather than to judge.
> 
> Personally, I would be really reluctant to post any of my questions here because of how venomous people can be. Surely this is not the intent of this forum? All you, sitting so high on your pedestals need to come down among us 'common serfs' and take a look at yourselves.
> 
> When the words "Pet forums" are said two things come to mind.
> 
> 1) Some weird S&M discussion board
> 2) A place for friendly advice, mutual interest in animals and the occasional lolcat image or some such
> 
> What I did not expect was for people to *constantly harp on a mistake* made by a member, and use said mistake at *any given opportunity* in a frankly childish attempt to dismiss her words.
> 
> Mistakes sometimes need to be made for people to learn from them.


To me a mistake is something that happens once.

For it to happen twice is unforgivable ... and I'm talking about 'thinking' your cat is pregnant, and then letting it get pregnant.


----------



## Guest

Shayden said:


> so your mums cat accidentally got pregnant... and learnt her lesson... imagin if she came here looking for help and got the responces that some of you dish out!.... i suspect she would have been horrified!


Back then spaying was not often done to a pregnant cat, my mum did not want the litter either.

My mum actually comes on the forum and reads the threads regularly and actually agree's with it because if someone had been so blunt to her she would have never let hte cat out.


----------



## Shayden

catsmum said:


> stop trying to shut people up
> youre not a mod
> remember
> youre not the only one allowed to post
> and i will shut up about your accidental-deliberate litter of moggies when i feel like it, not when you tell me to


how very mature of you


----------



## Bandy

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Okay then, I will stop making assumptions and listen to you for a bit:
> 
> Give me one good reason for a cat to get accidently pregnant.
> Give me one good reason not to spay or neuter your cat when it gets to, lets say, 6 months.


Simple...life.

You haven't a clue how some people come by their pets...what position they are in in life...or how little they know. Believe it or not, "common sense" to you may not be something they've even learned about yet.

The fact they cared enough to 
A) take an animal in and love it
B) look for advice and LEARN THE PROPER WAY

should be enough for folks to show some damned COMPASSION...not take the opportunity to be an ass.


----------



## canuckjill

darn off to work can't read to catch up on the soap opera here....


----------



## Gratch

catsmum said:


> stop trying to shut people up
> youre not a mod
> remember
> youre not the only one allowed to post
> and i will shut up about your accidental-deliberate litter of moggies when i feel like it, not when you tell me to


Stop telling me to stop telling you to stop going on about my mistakes  Honestly I would just put you on ignore but you would still be making derogatory remarks about me to other people in a public thread and that my dear, is not very nice, huh? So I shall leave you off to be able to defend myself.


----------



## Moogz

gloworm*mushroom said:


> But the mistakes are to the detriment of the animal! It may hurt your bank balance and your stress levels, but its the cat who has a litter to carry and look after.
> 
> Forgetting to put oil in your car is a 'innocent mistake' Its messes up your car, and you have to pay for your mistake.
> 
> In these cases its the animal paying for the mistake. And that is why I cannot be 'nice' about it.


I fail to see how the cats are being harmed. Gratch seems very motherly and the kittens are given lots of attention, Kerry is kept under supervision but is perfectly OK with the cats.

The only one suffering here is me, It cost enough keeping TWO cats supplied in cat toys -_-


----------



## CAstbury

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Give me one good reason for a cat to get accidently pregnant.
> Give me one good reason not to spay or neuter your cat when it gets to, lets say, 6 months.


Are we referring to ALL cats being spayed when they reach 6 months or just moggies?


----------



## Waterlily

catsmum said:


> stop trying to shut people up
> youre not a mod
> remember
> youre not the only one allowed to post
> and i will shut up about your accidental-deliberate litter of moggies when i feel like it, not when you tell me to


If your posting about someones life over and bloody over then yes shut the hell up, if they ask you, who the hell do you think you are to run someone down like a bully for a mistake ? huh


----------



## Dozymoo

I'm rather surprised. I made one post and I made a real effort to not attack and blame anyone in specific and people still took offence and thought I was personally attacking them!  I am firmly in the middle to be honest. As I already said, I don't condone unethical breeding. But I also don't condone the constant biting on this forum.

And with regards to my "kittens suffer" comment, perhaps I should have said "kittens could suffer". I don't want to imply that anyone in particular has said anything that has already resulted in the suffering of any animal. I am mearly trying to suggest that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

And on that merry note, I'm off to enjoy my social life!


----------



## Aurelia

Can I just ask a few members a question directly? Yes? Good thanks 

OK...

Classix, WL, Bandy, Suzy etc ... Why is it that you only ever appear in 'drama' threads, yet you're rarely seen in other threads where advice is needed?

If you feel so strongly about your opinion that we are being to mean (or whatever) why do you wait for it to kick off like this to say something?

Do you all have inbuilt dramadar or something?


----------



## Guest

Just to add I'd rather spend my time supporting someone who has had an accidental litter than the notorious local puppy/kitten farmer.

I get genuine calls from people who have genuinely made a mistake I feel their pain, torment and fear... a BYB/ puppy/kitten farmer fills me with anger and hatred (I'm quite a forgiving person too  ) 

You get those who make mistakes time after time those I have no sympathy with but everyone makes mistakes and I'd rather support and work with them than fight and work against them.

sorry for hijacking


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Moogz said:


> I fail to see how the cats are being harmed. Gratch seems very motherly and the kittens are given lots of attention, Kerry is kept under supervision but is perfectly OK with the cats.
> 
> The only one suffering here is me, It cost enough keeping TWO cats supplied in cat toys -_-


Why do you and Gratch think I am only talking about your situation? I do not anthropomorphise cats so I do not see cats as having a wonderful time with their kittens as we humans see it. The fact they forget their kittens are 'theirs' when they get older is different to how humans see their children.

I quoted your post only as you talked about learning from mistakes. I do not think animals should be used as a learning curve.


----------



## Guest

Here is the problem we have too many members that do have a lot of experience with cats and breeding, and we have a lot of members who THINK they know about cats and breeding and they all want to put there opinion across and ALL think that they are RIGHT in there views and ways.

Unfortunately we all have different experiences with animals and should try and agree to disagree if we can, it does put new members off because it is very CATTY ( see my joke) 

I cannot see a clique all i can see is a lot of arguments and disagreements which does not help any new member they will just log off and have there kittens and it could all go horribly wrong because they didn't get the right help. 

We cannot help everyone mind but just a few would be worthwhile.


----------



## Amethyst

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Get the pet first and let it get pregnant?
> 
> Animals are a responsibility, and not caring for it properly is abuse in my opinion. Letting kittens get pregnant, is abuse.
> 
> I dont claim to be a world class expert, not at all, but I know how to properly care for my pets.
> 
> I got my first kitten two weeks after deciding I wanted one, pretty 'rushed' in my opinion. In that two weeks I leant everything I needed to, it took me barely any time at all. Theres not a huge wealth of info to learn, the basics of cat health are very simple.


But the difference is ... you didn't want an accidentally on purpose litter


----------



## Waterlily

Aurelia said:


> Can I just ask a few members a question directly? Yes? Good thanks
> 
> OK...
> 
> Classix, WL, Bandy, Suzy etc ... Why is it that you only ever appear in 'drama' threads, yet you're rarely seen in other threads where advice is needed?
> 
> If you feel so strongly about your opinion that we are being to mean (or whatever) why do you wait for it to kick off like this to say something?
> 
> Do you all have inbuilt dramadar or something?


Did someone say something ? or was that a fart ?


----------



## Moogz

I'm not particularly bothered about defending my particular case as a lot of you have already made your minds up about the whole situation and nothing will change that.

Once again, that is not the issue.

What is the issue is the outright hostility shown to people judged as 'idiots' by the high and mighty.

It's like phoning tech support and having them go "Why the hell are you still using Windows XP? Use Windows 7, you idiot."


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Bandy said:


> Simple...life.
> 
> You haven't a clue how some people come by their pets...what position they are in in life...or how little they know. Believe it or not, "common sense" to you may not be something they've even learned about yet.
> 
> The fact they cared enough to
> A) take an animal in and love it
> B) look for advice and LEARN THE PROPER WAY
> 
> should be enough for folks to show some damned COMPASSION...not take the opportunity to be an ass.


I dont lambast anyone who took on a preggo stray. Thats a compassionate act.

I dont see much compassion in taking on an animal you cannot care for properly. There are plenty of pets I do not have cos I do not know how to look after the properly/dont have the time or expertise to look after them.

Learning the proper way is not through letting an animal get pregnant then learning its not a good thing...


----------



## Guest

I am still shocked that I am in a clique.....I thought I needed to know about it before being in it...Oh well. 

I am off out any min to go see my little brother no doubt the thread will be locked by the time I get back.:glare:


----------



## Amethyst

Aurelia said:


> Can I just ask a few members a question directly? Yes? Good thanks
> 
> OK...
> 
> Classix, WL, Bandy, Suzy etc ... Why is it that you only ever appear in 'drama' threads, yet you're rarely seen in other threads where advice is needed?
> 
> If you feel so strongly about your opinion that we are being to mean (or whatever) why do you wait for it to kick off like this to say something?
> 
> Do you all have inbuilt dramadar or something?


I've said before, they must smell the blood in the water ... I hope you aren't wearing a wetsuit Aurelia


----------



## Bandy

Aurelia said:


> Can I just ask a few members a question directly? Yes? Good thanks
> 
> OK...
> 
> Classix, WL, Bandy, Suzy etc ... Why is it that you only ever appear in 'drama' threads, yet you're rarely seen in other threads where advice is needed?
> 
> If you feel so strongly about your opinion that we are being to mean (or whatever) why do you wait for it to kick off like this to say something?
> 
> Do you all have inbuilt dramadar or something?


Perhaps it's to show the idiocy that goes on.
Perhaps it's show the detriment to this subforum.
Perhaps it's for nothing more than my entertainment.

But, one undeniable fact stands....the bull sh!t that has been going on here and causing folks (even established members) to feel angst instead of assisted when asking for help has been highlighted.

Wouldnt you say?

Perhaps the real question, Aurelia, is why you and your ilk feel justified in being tw**s to folks.

Hmm?


----------



## Waterlily

shetlandlover said:


> I am still shocked that I am in a clique.....I thought I needed to know about it before being in it...Oh well.
> 
> I am off out any min to go see my little brother no doubt the thread will be locked by the time I get back.:glare:


tbh your the one on that lol list that I didnt mean.


----------



## rocco33

> If they didn't care about their animals they wouldn't even be here looking for help and advice.


There's a big difference between 'care' in terms of affection and love and 'care' in terms of responsibility and nuturing. The two are not the same thing nor do they necessarily come together.


----------



## catsmum

Amethyst said:


> Little fairy in dismay, wonders why they will not spay?
> Why they do not see the need. Rather let their kitties breed.
> 
> Rather wait till deed is done. Then to forum quickly run.
> When they do not get what they wanted. Run off crying disappointed.


Little fairly in dismay, let me help if I may

spaying costs a lot of money, for the irresponsible owners that aint funny

they let their kittens breed, because selling them fulfills their greed

they run to the forum for free advice, because vets consultation charges sure aint nice

moggy litters cant cost money, because that would make the moggy breeder one unhappy bunny.


----------



## classixuk

Aurelia said:


> Can I just ask a few members a question directly? Yes? Good thanks
> 
> OK...
> 
> Classix, WL, Bandy, Suzy etc ... Why is it that you only ever appear in 'drama' threads, yet you're rarely seen in other threads where advice is needed?
> 
> If you feel so strongly about your opinion that we are being to mean (or whatever) why do you wait for it to kick off like this to say something?
> 
> Do you all have inbuilt dramadar or something?


Not sure really Aurelia. I'd like to think that most of my posts are humourous and not too serious.
When I find a thread where I'm able to offer advice I do so...like the hair threads where people want advice on how to do it at home.
I also did a thread on here about thinking your cat might be pregnant which resulted in lots of rep, likes and PMs from people thanking me for the thread.

I find that the threads that I am in that end up in drama usually have 'other players'.

For example, one of the cat people who is posting in here has a posting history where 26% of the threads she has contributed to have ended up closed by a mod. I wasn't in most of those threads. She was in all of them.

Maybe it takes 2 to tango?


----------



## CAstbury

CAstbury said:


> Are we referring to ALL cats being spayed when they reach 6 months or just moggies?


Nobody answered me


----------



## Waterlily

Amethyst said:


> I've said before, they must smell the blood in the water ... I hope you aren't wearing a wetsuit Aurelia


my god me too, that would be a tight fit :blink:

just kidding


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> tbh your the one on that lol list that I didnt mean.


Ohhh thank god for that, there was me thinking I had joined a clique in my sleep! 

I post however I think, not because of whoever it is or whoever agree's my opinions are my own and if others share my view good, if not its no loss. Part of life is having different opinions.

I like to think I get on with most on the forum and I certainly have no problem with anyone on the forum.


----------



## Bandy

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I dont lambast anyone who took on a preggo stray. Thats a compassionate act.
> 
> I dont see much compassion in taking on an animal you cannot care for properly. There are plenty of pets I do not have cos I do not know how to look after the properly/dont have the time or expertise to look after them.
> 
> Learning the proper way is not through letting an animal get pregnant then learning its not a good thing...


But you feel justified in lambasting someone because they took on an animal without first "researching" everything.

That is outright lunacy.

If they come here looking for advice...or looking to learn...then they obviously WANT to better themselves and the life of the animal.

How exactly would lambasting them for their "mistake" be beneficial? In ANY way?


----------



## lymorelynn

Do you know what folks? I am just sick and tired of the attitudes on this thread! Is it about anything? No - it has just been an excuse to slag each other off. I'm sorry but thread closed!


----------

