# Please Help! Urgent advice needed



## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

Hi

Please could you read this and give your reaction.

Yesterday my 2 y o cocker was left with my son (age 5) and my dad. As I left my son took hold of Montys collar to pull back a little so the front door could be closed. I drove away not knowing anything was wrong.

Behind the door Monty objected to this. It is possible my son inadvertantly hurt Monty but they do know each other well and before Monty had been a typical cocker and tolerant of him. But on this occassion Monty turned to my son snarling and attacked him.

My dad (very experienced with cockers) intervened and got between them shouting at Monty and trying to drag him away. My son was not hurt badly at all, just shaken.

At this point Monty attacked my dad and dad was badly bitten on his hand. He had to kick Monty to make him let go and back off and managed to get Monty into the cage he sleeps in. Poor dad - two fingers are virtually shredded.

By the time I get home my son is fine and relating it all like a big adventure and dad is trying to play down how bad it was. Monty in his cage looks sheepish.

Before this the main problems we had had with Monty (who we rescued from a terrible home) had been him being very boistorous and not clean in the house. We'd overcome the house training by using a cage for sleeping in and since being 2 he seemed to have calmed down.

Much as I adore my dog (and he is very much my dog and my companion) I know I cannot keep him for fear of my son or a friend of his being hurt. But is putting him to sleep the only answer??

Thank you for reading


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

No I don't think he ought to be put to sleep!

This dog is from a terrible past, and your son grabbing his collar might have reminded the dog of something awful that use to happen to him! Your dad (not meaning to) will have escalated the dogs fear by shouting and in fear snapped at the next person who scared him. 

It sounds as if he was beaten and bullied around in his previous home and something just snapped and he thought he was in that situation?

It sounds as if you have already decided you cannot have him in your home, which is understandable your son is your main priority- this dog needs to be in a calm quiet home with no children where he can be shown alot of love and gentle attention.

But- finding that home may be a problem! No rescue will take this dog (he would just get pts anyway) because he has bitten a child and an adult, but if you can find him a home who will be able to work with him and not pass him from pillar to post then do


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Hi.What age did you get your dog? has he ever shown any aggression signs before this? does he have a anxiety when you leave him at all?(before this episode) Is it possible your son may have held him too tightly,or pinched his skin?


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

I was faced with a scenario like this several years ago, we rescued a dog who then attacked a faimily member for no apparent reason. We hired a trainer and behaviourist, maybe you could try doing this and having him assessed?? Or phoning the breed rescue and see what they suggest!? I have to say my case had a sad ending and it was deemed the dog in question would be unpredictable and we made the hard decision with the guidance of the trainer, behaviourist and vet! 

I am sorry i don't quite know what the correct answer is? I feel for you i really do and you have to go with your head and not your heart with these kind of decisions. 

Like you say your little one may have hurt the dog and this incident may be a one off???? But there are a lot of 'may have' involved.

Good luck and i think whatever decision you make people should support you. X


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

Thank you for your replies. If it wasnt for my son I would keep Monty because he is a wonderful joyful sort of dog. 

If I could find a good home then that would be great. Very sad to part with him but I'd love him to have another chance.

He was 10 months when I got him and it wasnt that he had been beaten - just neglected and shut in a room alone 23 hours a day. Never had a collar, never groomed and allowed to run in a field for an hour a day, he was a mass os sticky burrs. The family who had him were scared of him. I thought it was because he was so lively, so desperate for attention and still fond on mouthing everything including them which they thought was biting.

Maybe he had shown some aggression and they has reason to be scared of him.

Cocker spaniel rescue told me to have him put to sleep.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

A thorough vet check, then a behaviourist.

I would be very careful about rehoming privately.


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## doogpoh (Jan 8, 2010)

What colour is the dog? not sure if your aware of ''Rage syndrome''? it's where cockers have sudden outbreaks of unprovoked aggression which is mostly in red and golden cocker spaniels, but is quite rare. Other than that it could have just been the weather we've had lately, he could have been hot and grumpy and just didn't feel like being pulled about. I would say get in a behavourist before even thinking of having him pts.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

doogpoh said:


> What colour is the dog? not sure if your aware of ''Rage syndrome''? it's where cockers have sudden outbreaks of unprovoked aggression which is mostly in red and golden cocker spaniels, but is quite rare. Other than that it could have just been the weather we've had lately, he could have been hot and grumpy and just didn't feel like being pulled about. I would say get in a behavourist before even thinking of having him pts.


I have to say however 'hot and bothered' my fur babies get i would never use that as an excuse for them attacking one of my children!? Sorry just wanted to say that!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

So sorry to hear this. 

According to Dr Dunbar about a fifth of all dog bites occur when someone known to the dog takes his collar. Collar grabs generally have negative associations to dogs as we generally do this to take dogs away from things they enjoy or to restrain them from interesting things etc. Basically it comes to mean that something not so nice is about to happen. Plus in this situation, your Cocker was probably a little aroused (upset) at you leaving.

Collar grabs should be part of every dog's socialisation and training due to this.

Was your son marked? What sort of treatment did your dad require?

I cannot advise you on what to do in this situation as only you can know what is right for your family. I certainly would not be taking the advice of someone who has not assessed the dog behaviourally, nor before a full medical check. I would never even suggest PTS before full assessment (medical and behavioural) and then only after discussion with vet, owners and any other relevant people.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

As you have had him from 10mths and he is now 2yrs old,i assume you havent felt he was agressive before this?
I would advise a vet check to make sure there is no underlying problem.
You will have two options after that really,either rehome/pts route or you can work with a behaviourist on the problem,i guess this all depends(after vet check) on whether you feel you trust him enough to follow through behavioural training.
The episode may have triggered a past experience,and if you can find out more of his background this may help too.


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

He is chocolate roan.

I have heard and experienced rage syndrome and this doesnt seem like that. The other dog would have 'rage' fairly frequently and would fly at family members, then suddenly snap out of it and seem dazed. 

I can't keep him though. He is such a lively dog and my son is such a lively boy. It would be impossible to supervise every interaction they have however hard I tried. 

I really want to do right by this dog. He is gorgeous. But I am nervous now for my son. 

Cocker spaniel rescue have also said if I rehome and he bites again I could be sued. 

I feel completely torn with wanting to do the best I can for my dog and protecting my son from possible harm.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Weather or no weather. That should not be an excuse for the dog to bite.

Yes, your dad may have made him more excited, but the dog should never think it is acceptable to bite. I don't think having him put to sleep is the right way to go, however I understand finding another home for him could be really difficult.

You need to find behaviourist. and as said a vet check.

I hope it all goes as well as possible


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tripod said:


> According to Dr Dunbar about a fifth of all dog bites occur when someone known to the dog takes his collar. Collar grabs generally have negative associations to dogs as we generally do this to take dogs away from things they enjoy or to restrain them from interesting things etc. Basically it comes to mean that something not so nice is about to happen. Plus in this situation, your Cocker was probably a little aroused (upset) at you leaving.


Totally agree with this... it seems also that the situation was stressful for the dog, and many dogs behave out of character when stressed. I would also contact a reputable behaviourist (APBC and/or COAPE trained) and also look into learning more about stress in dogs and how to recognise/avoid it.

Since reading up on this myself I have become far more aware of stress in my own dog and how that has been affecting his behaviour, plus ways to minimise it. It may sound obvious, but not until you have more of a fixed idea what can trigger reactions in your dog and what seemingly ordinary situations (to you) can create stress in your dog, you won't know how to work around things that stress him.


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

Answers to questions

Monty has no issues with being left and has never been unreasonably possessive about things or anything like that that I would associate with a rescue dog. He is not nervous. He is in fact the most ridiculously joyful animal I have ever encountered.

He has in the past snapped at Jacob (my son) in a manner I thought like a dog behaves towards another in the pack. As is he thought he was a similar rank to Jacob and could intimidate jacob into being submissive to him. I always intervened crossly and pushed Monty onto his back. I also got Jacob to do things like be the one to put out Monty's food and the one to open the cage in the morning. - trying to emphasize Monty is at the bottom of the pecking order. This seemed very effective and monty obeys sit and stay commands from Jacob.

That said I never blamed monty for this - it seemed natural although not desirable behaviour and Jacob, typical 5 yo is more than capable of bad behaviour towards Monty. 

Monty has never shown any aggression toward me and I feel more than confident handling him in any way, taking food from him or any of the usual tests of aggression.


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## rat addict (Jun 8, 2010)

there could be many reasons why your dog turned , he could be poorly himself our bull masstiff turned on my hubby a couple of months ago he had an ear infection at the time or another reason maybe because yesterday was a hot day and most dogs get irratble in hot weather, do`nt write your dog off without considering all your options


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## doogpoh (Jan 8, 2010)

Matrix/Logan said:


> I have to say however 'hot and bothered' my fur babies get i would never use that as an excuse for them attacking one of my children!? Sorry just wanted to say that!


Sorry i didn't mean it as an excuse for the dog to bite, i just know my dogs can get a little grumbly when there hot and if it was just a little snap or growl i wouldn't be to worried about aggression, but yes your right actually biting is something very different. I thought for some reason the dog was the op's dads dog  and was maybe not used to having young kids about. I have a baby and a 2 year old myself and if either of my dogs bite one of them i wouldn't be able to have them in my home anymore and would have to be very careful about where they would go but would not let them be put to sleep until i had tried everything possible first.


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

Injuries - 

my son was bruised but no skin break. A little shaken but that soon passed. He loves dogs and I think it will take a lot more to change that fortunately.

my dad received puncture wounds to middle finger and back of hand and a long laceration to his ring finger which req stitches. today his hand is swollen, throbbing and infected. He'll need to see the gp tomorrow.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

lucylou432 said:


> He has in the past snapped at Jacob (my son) in a manner I thought like a dog behaves towards another in the pack. As is he thought he was a similar rank to Jacob and could intimidate jacob into being submissive to him. I always intervened crossly and pushed Monty onto his back. I also got Jacob to do things like be the one to put out Monty's food and the one to open the cage in the morning. - trying to emphasize Monty is at the bottom of the pecking order. This seemed very effective and monty obeys sit and stay commands from Jacob.
> 
> .


I'm sorry but this is totally inappropriate. This sort of stuff has been shown to correlate with a rise in aggressive responses.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Ahh tripod. You explain this. xD
I was having a freak out when an alpha roll was mentioned D:

However I feel terri should be here.
Plus i must sleep.

Oh and i believe this dogs behaviour can be corrected but you need to change your whole approach to 'training'


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tripod said:


> I'm sorry but this is totally inappropriate. This sort of stuff has been shown to correlate with a rise in aggressive responses.


Agree again - the "Pack Leader" stuff has been shown to be outdated and completely untrue. You would be heaping more stress on your dog by doing this and making him more anxious - and a fearful or anxious dog is much more likely to snap.


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

tripod said:


> I'm sorry but this is totally inappropriate. This sort of stuff has been shown to correlate with a rise in aggressive responses.


I accept my ideas and methods may be out of touch but my approach has always been sympathetic to Monty and why he is behaving as he does. The methods I used were taught to me by my first husband who was a dog handler in the army.

Are you saying that I have caused this situation? This method worked well and resulted in almost 10 months free from any signs of aggression before this incident


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

You may well have caused the situation.

This method was most likely having big negative side effects that were unnoticed.
You have to ask, then why the sudden aggression?


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

I love my dog

Everything I have done has being because I genuinely believed I was doing the best I could for him.

This is an awful situation to be in and its tearing me apart.

Dont you think comments like that should be left for a time when they can help rather than cause further pain and upset


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

But that's the thing that I find most often - just because the dog is not snapping, growling or biting he is presumed to be fine. Dogs aggressing is rarely a 'sudden' thing. Dogs show discomfort and ask for distance in a wide range of incredibly subtle ways before even getting close to growling or any other escalated signaling. Its just that we tend to misinterpret this or just plain not see it.

In this situation, this dog most likely bit because of arousal and restraint - two common ingredients in this sort of situation.
Its not about blame - this awful thing has happened; I am glad your son is not badly injured nor traumatised and I hope this dog does not have to die over being misunderstood, especially before proper assessment by suitably qualified people.


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## doogpoh (Jan 8, 2010)

lucylou432 said:


> I love my dog
> 
> Everything I have done has being because I genuinely believed I was doing the best I could for him.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about the dominence side of things tbh but this is how our dogs when i was growing up were trained and we have had a lot of dogs and not one ever shown the slightest bit of aggression to anybody, so to blame you for the way your dog acted i think is out of order, no body can say exacually why he did what he did and i doubt any body will ever know. I hope you can sort something out, maybe have him stay with someone else until things get them selves sorted and you don't have to resort to having him pts, at the end of the day only you know what would be best for the dog and your family. All the best


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> I can't keep him though. He is such a lively dog and my son is such a lively boy. It would be impossible to supervise every interaction they have however hard I tried.


*Why? :blink:

i am sorry, but YOU are not the only parent in the world with a 5-YO **and** a dog. 
there is IMO no change whatever in the necessity to SUPERVISE every time that the dog + the child are together - 
that should have been true since the dog arrived at 10-MO, from his prior home; 
this is not some new and dreadful burden - it is instead what U should have been doing, all along. *


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

doogpoh said:


> I don't know much about the dominence side of things tbh but this is how our dogs when i was growing up were trained and we have had a lot of dogs and not one ever shown the slightest bit of aggression to anybody, so to blame you for the way your dog acted i think is out of order, no body can say exacually why he did what he did and i doubt any body will ever know. I hope you can sort something out, maybe have him stay with someone else until things get them selves sorted and you don't have to resort to having him pts, at the end of the day only you know what would be best for the dog and your family. All the best


Thank you for saying that - I am breaking my heart here. Monty is a FABULOUS dog. Since my (second) husband has worked abroad he has been my constant companion and has got me through some tough moments.

I consider myself a dog person. Monty is my 4th cocker and I have also has 2 springers, 4 GSDs (army dogs with first hubby God Bless Him) and lived on a farm for 3 years where there were collies and jack russels I looked after. Monty is my first rescue dog but I thought I was ready to take on that.

Dad bred cockers while I was growing up. The techniques I use may well be outdated - but they have been used with the best of intentions.

Is Monty stressed? well I am certain he is right now. He picks up on my mood and i feel terrified and sick to the stomach. before - maybe. He comes over as relaxed, always happy. He's a bit obsessed with playing with other dogs which was once suggested to me as a sign of stress to do with not being socialised at all as a pup.

I have no where available he can stay while thhis is sorted out. Its here with me or nowhere I'm afraid. Mum wont have him after he bit dad and my brother has a dog that wont mix.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I too have experienced problems, not with my cocker (had from pup) but with my springer (rescue) with 5yr old grandmonster. Surfice to say that in December the springer nipped grandmonster and drew a little blood. It transpired at a later date that she confessed to holding his head down. However that is immaterial. Where possible they are not left alone, hard work I fully admit, also everyday I talk to grandmonster and we discuss how to handle Alf, we have never had another nip/bite but have had the odd grumble, at which point not only is Alf reminded with firm voice only, but grandmonster is also interegated as to what has transpired, and is also firmly reminded as to what is and isnt appropriate behaviour with dogs. I must say at this point that since the incident I watch him very closely with everyone in the house and also those that we meet with on walks etc. I have learnt, mostly by looking at his face and body language when he starts to feel a little stressed, which is mainly when people (even me at times) catch him unawares, at which point I try to change the situation for the better, i.e. when he's lying down on the floor by my feet if I wish to move I start to talk before doing so as a sudden movement without a voice before hand startles him and can make him grumbly.

Grandmonster knows never to pull the dogs by collar/tails. Never to approach them by suprise, although shes not exactly a quiet child, you'd hear her down the street. Shes hard work but with patience and repetition we're getting there. When leaving the house the dogs are not allowed to follow to the door and on the odd occasion they do our legs are used as a barrier not holding by collars. If this is the only incident of this type, and the vet rules out any illness as a cause then surely its worth working on to ensure that this situation doesnt arise again.


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *Why? :blink:
> 
> i am sorry, but YOU are not the only parent in the world with a 5-YO **and** a dog.
> there is IMO no change whatever in the necessity to SUPERVISE every time that the dog + the child are together -
> ...


I have been there at every time they play together or if Jacob is feeding etc but I honestly dont believe it is possible to be there watching every single time they interact together. Both dog and child move about. The only way to ensure they didnt meet would be for the dog to be restrained whenever Jacob was in the home. Anyone who says they have a dog living in the house who has never been with the child without supervision is lying. It happens


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Ok, dog to human aggression cannot and should not be advised about online. :nonod:

The dog and your family need to be seen in real life by a qualified, experienced behaviour counsellor who will then be able to make a thorough assessment and advise you accordingly, normally supporting you through a specially prescribed behaviour adjustment programme based on scientifically proved knowledge using no aversive therapies or shock treatment etc. If you have pet insurance, this may be covered on that. Ask your vet to refer you to either a member of the UKRCB or the APBC.

If however you choose to take online advice that is at your own risk and you have to remember that as the person giving it may not be qualified and that in any case, they have not seen you and the dog interacting, then their advice may be wildy inaccurate or even dangerous. :confused1:

The choice is yours. I wish you all the best whatever you decide.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> *bold + [bracket] added - *
> 
> He has [previously] snapped at... (my son) in a manner *I thought like a dog behaves towards another in the pack. As is he thought he was a similar rank to Jacob and could intimidate jacob into being submissive to him. I always intervened crossly and pushed Monty onto his back.*


making the dog feel threatened will not help - *dominance + pack-theory is misleading + false.*

ROLLING + PINNING are serious aggression - dogs forcibly ROLL another dog only when the intent is lethal, 
meaning *to kill* --- or seriously-injurious assault is meant: crippling, mauling injuries. 


lucylou432 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I also got Jacob to do things like be the one to put out Monty's food and the one to open the cage in the morning. - *trying to emphasize Monty is at the bottom of the pecking order.* This seemed very effective and monty obeys sit and stay commands from Jacob.


 again - 
this has nothing whatever to do with PACK-theory, RANK-reduction, Alpha-rolls, pinning, confrontation, etc; 
they only increase tension + anxiety, resulting in self-defensive aggression... as U have just seen.

please consult a vet-behaviorist, COAPE-member, or an APDT-uk trainer experienced in B-Mod. 
if anyone so much as *mentions!* Alpha, pinning, forcing, packs,... _*Run. *_
--- terry


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## doogpoh (Jan 8, 2010)

lucylou432 said:


> Thank you for saying that - I am breaking my heart here. Monty is a FABULOUS dog. Since my (second) husband has worked abroad he has been my constant companion and has got me through some tough moments.
> 
> I consider myself a dog person. Monty is my 4th cocker and I have also has 2 springers, 4 GSDs (army dogs with first hubby God Bless Him) and lived on a farm for 3 years where there were collies and jack russels I looked after. Monty is my first rescue dog but I thought I was ready to take on that.
> 
> ...


I really feel for you i can't imagine how you must be feeling right now it must be heartbreaking for you, expecially as your so close to him. It's a hard one as it could simple be a one of thing and might never happen again and then on the other hand it could be the start of something worst, but with having young children myself i know it's something you couldn't risk happening again and you would never forgive yourself if it did. I can't be of much help as to what to do, only you can deside and no one on here knows the dog aswell as you do. Im glad your little boy is ok and hope your dad gets better soon but you really shouldn't blame yourself for what happened. {{{{{ HUGS}}}}}


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

lucylou432 said:


> I have been there at every time they play together or if Jacob is feeding etc but I honestly dont believe it is possible to be there watching every single time they interact together. Both dog and child move about. The only way to ensure they didnt meet would be for the dog to be restrained whenever Jacob was in the home. *Anyone who says they have a dog living in the house who has never been with the child without supervision is lying. It happens*


Then you are calling me a liar 

I cannot even go to the loo without bringing my dogs out of the living room if my son is watching tv or close the kitchen door behind me- even if the dogs are lying sleeping and my son seems engrosed in what he is watching- because I know that being 4/5 he WILL get up to or call the dogs over, simply because he knows he is not allwed to when I am in the room.

They are not allowed in the garden together unless I am there because the instant I turn my back he is winding them up- he is a child. I do not do this because my dogs have snapped of have ever shown aggression, I do it because I love my son and my dogs so much that it would hurt to be without any of them, and I cannot let any sort of chance to make that happen go.

Children annoy dogs, they exite them, even sounds children make can exite a dog and when a dog gets wound up it knows no boundaries, a dog who rarely jumps may jump, you cant predict these situations that is why until my son is old enough to understand, he will NEVER be ALONE with my dogs (or anyone elses!)

I agree your dog ought to have a full vet check and be assesed.

I also agree on the training thing, alpha rolling is not good and just because he has shown no sign of it causing bad effect until now, it doesnt mean he has been fine, it could have been building up.

No one is slating you for using a 'dated' method, loads of people still think the whole dominace theory thing is right,loads of people do the wrong thing simply because that is all they know- in your case.

You need to take what everyone said- the negative as well as the positive and put it to good use


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

PoisonGirl said:


> Then you are calling me a liar
> 
> A closed door, a closed cage, an instruction not to - none of these would stop Jacob getting to Monty if he felt inclined to while I was otherwise engaged.
> 
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> And there are other moments when my attention is elsewhere - cooking, a doorbell rings, the phone.
> 
> I absoutely agree in an ideal world dogs and young children would be supervised. I do try to do it. But does is happen 100% of the time?No. And can i imagine a circumstance they could get together unsupervised in the future? yes


then lets cut to the chase - 
put the dog down, please, on Your Tab - don;t leave the dog at the local shelter WITHOUT telling them about the bite, 
NOR leave the dog there with full-disclosure; pay Your Vet to euthanize Your Dog.

sorry for the trouble, the dog and the boy, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i want to make it clear that i am not **giving-up** on the dog; 
the dog IMO + IME of training over several decades, is very likely recoverable.

*however*... without every adult in the house being fully committed to every-single interaction being supervised, 
there is no point in even beginning B-Mod --- also IMO + IME. so i am not saying that the dog is _*hopeless... *_ - 
the dog, unless i have vastly misread some key point, was profoundly neglected for his 1st ten-months, 
but in the year since, he has not displayed aggression, _*despite significant provocation.*_

so the dog has already demonstrated excellent bite-inhibition; 
it is the SITUATION that i am giving-up on, not the dog. 
very sad, 
--- terry


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

*however*... without every adult in the house being fully committed to every-single interaction being supervised, 


I am the only adult in the house. There is me, my son and the dog. When I have to go out (as it was yesterday when I had to go to the supermarket) I either take Jacob with me or arrange for my dad to stay in the house with them.

I have come onto this forum to get help - to try to find an answer other than kill the dog - which is what everyone here is telling me to do. I phoned the cocker spaniel rescue to ask for help and their advice was have him destroyed instantly as if he hurts anyone else you will be sued.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> I have come onto this forum... to try to find an answer other than kill the dog - which is what everyone here is telling me to do. I phoned the cocker spaniel rescue to ask for help and their advice was have him destroyed instantly as if he hurts anyone else (I) will be sued.


 we don;t have any miracles on hand, either.

there are a very short list of possibilities - 
the BEST chance is for You to do the B-Mod with the help of a reputable pro.

but - if U as U say, ** cannot possibly ** monitor the child + dog every time they are together, 
that becomes impossible.

that leaves: 
* re-home the dog oneself - 
bad idea; U cannot do background checks, a contract, etc. 
once out of Ur possession, anything can happen to the dog.

* re-home thru rescue - 
most will not take a dog with a bite-history of any kind; NOT mentioning the bite is extremely unethical.

* give him up to a shelter - 
same problems; with disclosure, most either will not accept him, or will euth him.

so... U have eliminated the one workable possibility, as far as i can see. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> I have come onto this forum to get help - to try to find an answer other than kill the dog - which is what everyone here is telling me to do. I phoned the cocker spaniel rescue to ask for help and their advice was have him destroyed instantly as if he hurts anyone else you will be sued.


 I gave you sound advice earlier which you appear to have totally ignored or perhaps missed? I shalll repeat it to save you from scrolling back. 

*



Ok, dog to human aggression cannot and should not be advised about online. :nonod:

The dog and your family need to be seen in real life by a qualified, experienced behaviour counsellor who will then be able to make a thorough assessment and advise you accordingly, normally supporting you through a specially prescribed behaviour adjustment programme based on scientifically proved knowledge using no aversive therapies or shock treatment etc. If you have pet insurance, this may be covered on that. Ask your vet to refer you to either a member of the UKRCB or the APBC.

If however you choose to take online advice that is at your own risk and you have to remember that as the person giving it may not be qualified and that in any case, they have not seen you and the dog interacting, then their advice may be wildy inaccurate or even dangerous. :confused1:

The choice is yours. I wish you all the best whatever you decide.


Click to expand...

*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> ...if I go to the loo (and I have crohns so I can get stuck there for a while) I cannot be certain he isnt letting monty free.


everybody has to go to the bathroom sometime - 
and IME every bathroom i have ever been in, was large-enuf for a human AND a Cocker - 
hes a Spaniel, not a 300# English-Mastiff.  bring him in, LOCK the door, take a shower, use the toilet, whatever.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I would use a padlock on the crate. Cheap enough to get from B&Q!  I brought up two small daughters with two corgis and then before they were 5 and 6 years old, a collie too. You have to become inventive and take the time to put safe supervision into place I'm afaid when you have children and dogs. There are no excuses, it's part of life.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

lucylou432 said:


> A closed door, a closed cage, an instruction not to - none of these would stop Jacob getting to Monty if he felt inclined to while I was otherwise engaged.
> 
> Maybe its different for me because of Jacobs personality. He is my only child and my only experience of children. But if I go to the loo (and I have crohns so I can get stuck there for a while) I cannot be certain he isnt letting monty free.
> 
> ...


Then you are not capable of helping this dog. With all due respect, I have 3 children, two of which have special needs, one of which was previously attacked by a dog, and if I can juggle children and animals to ensure neither are ever left alone, so can you. It's an excuse isn't it really, and one I can understand as I've been there and felt the same. I get the impression from your posts that you're feeling that you want any excuse to get rid of him to someone else, to have rid and not have the guilt of PTS. Indeed there are risks and benefits from any course of action you choose (whether they're for you and your son or the dog), but if you cannot minimise the risks you have the responsibility to handle the situation for your son's safety. If you cannot seperate the dog from your son and get him screened for health problems and seen by a behaviourist (as many have advised as a first and most important option to saving this dog), you are effectively signing his death warrant - I get that you don't want to come out of this in any other way than as a blameless saint but that's the fact of the matter and you're going to have to deal with it. I'm sorry to be harsh but I really do get the impression that you want someone to take the responsibility off your hands.

For the record I fully agree that pack ranking methods such as alpha rolling and "putting a dog in it's place in the pack" are not only outdated but potentially lethal (as we can see in this case) and I am surprised that anyone so experienced with dogs wouldn't know this - no good trainer advocates it and hasn't in the last 10 years. 

Until you decide what to do with your spaniel, please don't leave him alone again with that man.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Until you decide what to do with your spaniel, please don't leave him alone again with that man.


i heartily agree with that entire post - 
and the man who kicked the dog while taking him away from the 5-YO + got bitten, is the OPs father - 
with whom she usually leaves dog + son, when she goes out.

my suggestion is simple - 
put the dogs *crate* in Ur bedroom, and LATCH the door above the reach of the 5-YO. 
an ordinary hook + eye co$ts under a dollar; a padlock on the dogs crate door is insurance. 
tell Ur father that under no circs is the boy allowed to open that door, period - 
be sure that the dog voids bladder + bowels before hes crated, and leave him with a stuffed, frozen Kong. 
he will be fine for up to 8-hours, all by himself, till U get home; nobody else risks a bite.

if U post the general area, we may be able to refer a qualified behaviorist (APBC, COAPE or vet-behaviorist - not a hobbyist), 
or an experienced APDT-uk trainer with B-Mod skills.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

I have young children in my family, all 7 ranging from 2 weeks old to 10 years old. When they are around and we have Holly, if we need the toilet, and there's only one adult supervising, she either gets locked (with padlock) in her crate, or comes with us to the toilet. That way dog and child cannot play unattended.

Also, the room she sleeps in at night is lockable too, so if kids are around, it gets locked at night.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

KathyM said:


> For the record I fully agree that pack ranking methods such as alpha rolling and "putting a dog in it's place in the pack" are not only outdated but potentially lethal (as we can see in this case) and I am surprised that anyone so experienced with dogs wouldn't know this - no good trainer advocates it and hasn't in the last 10 years.


pack-theory + rolling / pinning, pack hierarchy, etc, were actually in vogue in the 1980s - by which time, 
the *scientific author* of the popularized-hooey had already repudiated it, explaining that captive-assemblages of wolves 
are *A,* not dogs, and *B,* not related - and it turns out that wild-wolf PACKS are actually FAMILIES - 
mom + dad, a couple of teens not ready to be on their own, and the current youngsters. sometimes theres an uncle or aunt; 
but often its no more than kiddies, teens, and parents.

so ROLLING - which is massively threatening behavior, and highly aggressive in itself - has been passee - 
Outdated, Old-fashioned, Condemned - since at least 1988 or 1990, making it over 20-years 
since anybody who knows what they are talking about, has suggested such confrontational methods.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

KathyM said:


> If you cannot seperate the dog from your son and get him screened for health problems and seen by a behaviourist (as many have advised as a first and most important option to saving this dog), you are effectively signing his death warrant - I get that you don't want to come out of this in any other way than as a blameless saint but that's the fact of the matter and you're going to have to deal with it.


Sadly this is an all too common occurance. There is a lot of truth in the old saying that 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.' :frown: Sound advice is ignored whilst anything suggesting negative methods is embraced because it seems to be easier and quicker and requires less effort, time and money. Getting rid, ie; passing the problem to someone else, is even easier for some. They then salve their consciences by persuading themselves that the dog has 'gone to a good home' whereas what often happens is that the dog ends up in and out of the rescue shelter a few times before being put to sleep because it is too screwed up to rehome easily.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

I do understand that feeling to an extent - I had a dog in my home that bit my son badly. I didn't know at the time that he had bitten another child in his previous home. My son was permanently scarred. If I hadn't have been at the hospital with my son, I would've had the dog put down immediately, or killed him with my bare hands, such is the irrational reaction to a child being in danger. If that was the case with this lady I would be completely sympathetic, but it isn't as that irrational moment has passed and now we're onto what should be a period of common sense action. I hope that knowing that passing on the problem without warning is what permanently scarred my son will help this lady make a responsible decision, which is to get the dog assessed for veterinary issues that might have caused the issue, to get the dog assessed by a vet-referred behaviourist and if she cannot stand to have the dog in her home (and I can completely understand that feeling) to put the dog in boarding kennels while assessment is carried out and then either get the behaviourist or a rescue involved or put the dog down humanely. I'd rather it was the first option, but if it's a choice between lie to rehome and humanely euthanise I know which is more responsible. I don't believe this dog has attacked for no reason, there is always a provocation whether someone realises their actions provoked or not. I won't pass judgement without having been there but I can guess the provocation in this case given the history of bullying methods of training.

Euthanasia is neither necessary nor responsible when all other options have not been properly explored, and by that I mean vet screening and behavioural assessment - if you have to put the dog in kennels to do so without endangering your child then that's what has to be done.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

KathyM said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I hope that knowing that *passing on the (bite) problem without warning is what permanently scarred my son...*
> a responsible decision... is to get the dog assessed for veterinary issues... (then) assessed by a vet-referred behaviourist and...
> ...


hey, kathy :--) 
U are right; there is no excuse for rationalizing that *_the dog won;t bite again..._* 
or *_i cannot deal with killing my dog - so i will give the dog up, instead._* 
as U sadly + shockingly experienced, denying the problem + getting rid of the dog don;t solve the problem; 
it only risks further injury to ppl who are utterly ignorant of the dogs trigger(s).

i also agree wholeheartedly that dogs do not bite for no reason - they often have excellent reasons, 
in the eyes of many vets or trainers. *justified bite* strikes many pet-owners as an oxymoron, 
but there are dozens of valid reasons for a bite.

* pain 
* conditioned fears - expecting punishment, anticipating pain... 
* (perceived) threats to self and safety, or valued resources 
* threats to a family-member or k9-buddy: tending pups, defending from assault... 
* sheer startle - grabbing, pushing, abrupt touch, rough handling...

_*no vet has much sympathy for a pet-owner, rushing to their dog after a car hits the poor creature, 
who snatches the dog up, AND * GETS * predictably + preventably * BITTEN - thats just thoughtless. 
EMTs will cheerfully describe conscious, cognitive *Humans* who punched them when touch hurt - 
and they explain what the H*** they are doing, to a human. *_

i cannot know what triggered the bite - but i suspect it was a conditioned response to a collar-grab, 
and that CER can be re-conditioned thru B-Mod; it is not permanent. 
dogs have remarkably plastic behavior; even after decades literally, they can learn new behaviors to a trigger. 
this dog is young; his chance of readily learning new-habits + recovering from his poor puppyhood is excellent.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

a jam-packed site and link on B-Mod from Overall-DVM -

What is Behavior Modification? | k9aggression.com


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. You have my sympathies. 

One of my rescues attacked my dad over a year ago. I debated whether I should put him to sleep. The one thing I never considered, or would, is putting him in rescue. It's my problem and I will deal with it. Max is still with us, and although my dad is a little wary, he acknowledges that he made mistakes that day. 

You have a choice .....

1) work through his problems with a behaviourist. 
2) put him to sleep. 

You should not make this someone elses problem. 

It's up to you ...


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

I've read all the posts on here, and to be fair I think some of them are getting more agressive than the bloody dog. 

The woman is clearly having a hard time. Yes, she might have been able to prevent the situation but she didn't and that is no longer the issue, is it? The issue is surely helping her to get the dog the help it deserves?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> The woman is clearly having a hard time. Yes, she might have been able to prevent the situation but she didn't and that is no longer the issue, is it? The issue is surely helping her to get the dog the help it deserves?


As you will also have seen, we have tried to advise her but unless I am mistaken, she is taking none of it? So what can we do exactly? Go to her home and wave a magic wand? She has been given the right advice, now it is up to her.:huh:


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> I've read all the posts on here, and to be fair I think some of them are getting more agressive than the bloody dog.
> 
> The woman is clearly having a hard time. Yes, she might have been able to prevent the situation but she didn't and that is no longer the issue, is it? The issue is surely helping her to get the dog the help it deserves?


Nobody has been "aggressive", people have been up front and honest, because that's what's needed. Of course the OP is having "a hard time", noone's talked about what would have prevented the attack, but what is necessary to prevent another, which I personally think is pretty important!  There's no need to swear at people trying to help her either, otherwise you could be accused of the pot and kettle situation when it comes to aggressive posting.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> As you will also have seen, we have tried to advise her but unless I am mistaken, she is taking none of it? So what can we do exactly? Go to her home and wave a magic wand? She has been given the right advice, now it is up to her.:huh:


Exactly. She is obviously determined to pass the problem onto someone else since she insists it's "impossible" to prevent dog/child mixing unsupervised. What else can people say??


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi have you contacted NESSR. they rescue springers and cockers they might be able to advise you and maybe help with rehoming, there web page is Northern English Springer Spaniel Rescue Website | Northern English Springer Spaniel Rescue they are based in the North but will rehome from all areas hope this helps.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

KathyM said:


> Nobody has been "aggressive", people have been up front and honest, because that's what's needed. Of course the OP is having "a hard time", noone's talked about what would have prevented the attack, but what is necessary to prevent another, which I personally think is pretty important!  There's no need to swear at people trying to help her either, otherwise you could be accused of the pot and kettle situation when it comes to aggressive posting.


Where did I swear?

**edit** just seen the word bloody. It could be worse, trust me... 

And sorry, maybe I read some of the posts wrong. But some of them came across as rather agressive to me and blaming her for leaving the child with the dog, although he was not alone with him.

Sad situation, either way.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> some of (the posts) came across as rather agressive to me and blaming her for leaving the child with the dog, although he was not alone with him.
> Sad situation, either way.


hey, H-H :--) 
i agree that its a sad situation - but claiming its *impossible* to keep dog + child separated when unsupervised, and supervised 
when they are together, makes anything to change the dogs behavior impossible; it also makes the >*dog*< the guilty-party. 
all behavior is a conversation; BOTH parties need to change their behavior, for a change in outcome.

rolling + pinning are as i said before, extremely threatening, highly-aggressive behaviors; they did not help. 


lucylou432 said:


> *bold + underline added - *
> 
> The methods I used were taught to me by *my first husband who was a dog handler in the army.*
> 
> Are you saying that I have caused this situation? *This method * (rolling + pinning) *worked well and resulted in almost 10 months free from any signs of aggression before this incident.*


suppression via threats is not a successful or recommended *training*, quote / unquote, technique; 
Springers tend to be physically hardy + not easily discouraged by pain, like brambles, bangs into objects, etc; 
but they also tend to be emotionally sensitive, and shouting, rolling + pinning a dog with a direct-stare while holding 
the dog flat to the ground, are intensely-intimidating displays of force.

it is not *training* as training is meant to teach; it is however CONDITIONING in that it created 
a *conditioned emotional response* - a CER - that was to avoid conflict and hunker-down appeasingly when threatened.

short of offering to take the dog ourselves, there is little else we can advise - 
except to consult a *credentialed professional* not some self-titled _behaviorist_ who guarantees 
_*results in One Day! :thumbup: or your money back... *_ or some such twaddle, but a *veterinary behaviorist, 
Applied Animal-Behavior Counselor with a degree, or a COAPE or APDT-uk member with B-Mod experience.*

the owners only other responsible alternative is to euthanize her dog - at her expense, by her vet.

* re-homing is ethically + legally fraught - 
even with a quit-claim signed by the new-owner, she could be sued + bankrupt if the dog bit in future.

* no rescue or shelter will take him WITH his bite history, except to euthanize him - 
due to the liability exposure it would mean for their organization

* leaving him with a shelter or rescue WITHOUT full disclosure is heinous - irresponsible in the extreme.

if U have any other genuine alternatives, speak up - don;t be shy. :thumbsup: 
but i do not know of any - B-Mod by the owner, with the help of a reputable pro, is his best shot.

BTW - no mention was made of his intact / desex status. 
if he is still intact, neutering him may help; it does decrease the likelihood of bites, although 
obviously it is not a stand-alone sure-fire cure - he still needs B-Mod. 

all my best, 
--- terry


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## ArtemesiaEloise (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi

I've never had this problem with my GSD (though almost every other), and all trainers contradicted each other with my dog - the only thing that saved me - and if at all possible I'd advise anyone to do the same, is to watch Cesar Millan on Sky satellite Ch 8 and National Geographic Sky: NatGeoWild 528, 'The Dog Whisperer', tonight 7pm and 8pm. Lots of books available on the internet too.

Some people don't like him - they seem to feel threatened by him, many millions adore him for the help he has given them; I'm one of the latter. No-one else helped me with my dominant and very clever GSD, but his methods worked; alas, they are not a magic wand, and we all have to keep trying as we have a tendency to slip back into our old ways, but as soon as we are calm and assertive (never aggressive, never upset (!), never shout), then our dogs feel that this is a leader that they can follow, feel safe with and naturally obey without question.

My questions would be: when you leave the house who gets to the door first? Who goes through the door first? When you go for a walk is your dog in front of you or behind? Does he obey commands immediately (since you've made such other strides in rehabilitation he may). Does he have food/possessiveness issues? How much exercise does he get a) on the lead b)off the lead?

Cesar Millan has personally rehabilitated thousands of what he calls Red Zone cases - ones that people have decided to put down because of their aggression, pit bulls, rottweilers etc etc - and some of the smaller breeds like spaniels and terriers, and who knows how many thousands of dogs lives have been saved by his methods.

Possible scenario:-
As I daresay you know, if your dog feels that he is in charge of your family, and you left without his permission (thus probably making him feel very anxious for your welfare out of his care), then a junior member of his family attempted to tell him what to do, then he'd snap. To (most understandably) shout at him would only increase his anxiety further.

Please don't have him put down yet -

regards

ArtemesiaEloise


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Where did I swear?
> And sorry, maybe I read some of the posts wrong. But some of them came across as rather agressive to me and blaming her for leaving the child with the dog, although he was not alone with him.
> 
> Sad situation, either way.


Yes it is sad. But we can only offer guidance but when the recipient chooses not to take it then there is little that we can do. :frown: 

As for leaving the child with the dog, well of course we are going to have something to say about that, especially those of us who have managed to rear children and dogs without incident because we were vigilent and kept our wits about us. You CAN keep children and dogs seperate when unsupervised! The simple act of putting a padlock on the crate would see to that! :confused1:

The answers are there, but only if the OP wishes to utilise them. In this case, it would appear that they have already made their mind up to just get rid of the dog. I hope not. If they don't and they seek professional help as suggested instead, then I am sure that I can speak for most of us on here in that we will be supportive and encouraging all the way!  *But I am afraid that watching and listening to a celebrity dog manhandler on the TV and using his dubious methods is not something that any truly knowledgable and professional person experienced in behaviour modification would ever recommend!*


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> As for leaving the child with the dog, well of course we are going to have something to say about that, especially those of us who have managed to rear children and dogs without incident because we were vigilent and kept our wits about us. You CAN keep children and dogs seperate when unsupervised! The simple act of putting a padlock on the crate would see to that! :confused1:


Am I missing something, she left the kid with the dog and his granddad, not unsupervised.

Otherwise I'd be ringing the Social for her leaving a kid on his own whilst out shopping.

I don't have kids, so can't comment on your ability, but it must be hard work. Like she says, if someone phones and your attention is taken, do you crate the dog and lock it in the minute the phone goes? :confused1: Well done if you do because I bareley get to my phone in time as it is.

What I can say is that I took Rupert round to my friends when I went round and she has 3 kids. It was a nightmare watching them all the time, constantly, as they were all over the place!

I was nackered when I came back.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ArtemesiaEloise said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I've never had this problem with my GSD (though almost every other),
> and *all trainers contradicted each other with my dog* -


funnily enough, Art-Eloise -  everybody on this thread so far, has been unanimous. 
* find a CREDENTIALED professional - 
not second-hand hearsay from an entertainment source

* why do U think they have that *disclaimer* on the TV-program? 
_*because Natl-Geos lawyers recognize the high probability of being *sued* in precisely THESE circumstances - 
check page 1, the Original-Poster already Ceserized her dog, as directed by her Army-k9-handler hubby. 
he has already BEEN rolled + pinned and again, we are in unanimous agreement that this may well have triggered the dogs bite. 
no contradictions here... :huh: *_



ArtemesiaEloise said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> *the only thing that saved me* - and... I'd advise anyone to do the same, *is * (edit: was) *to watch Cesar Millan...*


how much are they paying U?  
that sounded like the start of a religious conversion - or an Alcoholics-Anonymous testimony. 


ArtemesiaEloise said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Some people *don't like* him...


thats inaccurate + misleading - it has diddly to do with *don;t like - * 
IMO + IME it has EVERYThing to do with, *don;t imitate, don;t emulate, don;t duplicate 
the tactics or methods or even tools, shown on that TV-show. *

i think i can safely say that None of Us personally *know* *cesar millan*, so we cannot say like or dislike - 
we can however join with the multiple professional organizations, as well as highly-reputable individuals with credentials, 
who have stated emphatically that his methods are old-fashioned and confrontational, cause suppression 
of the unwanted behavior (rather than teach a preferred behavior), and damage the human-animal bond... 
i-e, the relationship of that dog to their handler, and beyond that, to humans in general.

among his professional + well-known critics: 
* the American Humane Assoc - 
the folks who clear child + animal acting performances? 
the **no animal / child was harmed in the making of... ** folks?

* the head of Tufts-Univ Animal-Behavior Clinic, in the Vet-Med college 
*dodman DVM* - author, faculty, instructor, vet-behaviorist? 
the one who says *Cesar has taken dog-training back 20-years* - 
that was in 2006, by the way.

* American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists

* American Veterinary Medicine Assoc

and every well-known, respected trainer that i have ever heard of - 
*trish macMillan* (author, vet-behaviorist); *tamar geller*; *pat miller*; *steve white* (master-trainer, ex-cop, teaches k9-instructors)...

and many more. U want a list?  i will gladly get one... just say the word! 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Am I missing something, she left the kid with the dog and his granddad, not unsupervised.


yes, dear - 
U missed the part where she repeatedly said that 
*she cannot possibly supervise, every single time dog + child are together.*

which means that there is a strong probability that the dog + her son have already *been* together, un-supervised - 
and an excellent chance that the boy did something, even entirely innocently, that caused the dog to distrust him, 
or fear a repetition - even something as minor as treading on his paw, accidentally, WHILE holding his collar, 
could have triggered that bite at the door.

past experience forms future behavior. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

ArtemesiaEloise said:


> Hi
> 
> I've never had this problem with my GSD (though almost every other), and all trainers contradicted each other with my dog - the only thing that saved me - and if at all possible I'd advise anyone to do the same, is to watch Cesar Millan on Sky satellite Ch 8 and National Geographic Sky: NatGeoWild 528, 'The Dog Whisperer', tonight 7pm and 8pm. Lots of books available on the internet too.
> 
> ...


Ok my honest opinion of the information and recomendations here is....

Run as Fast as you Can!!! :scared:

The OP has already tried Alpha Rolls ect and realised that this may have CONTRIBUTED to this dogs behaviour. PLEASE DO NOT weather you like the guy or not try ANY of his methods your self!!!! They even say this on the show!!!! NO TV series is going to rehabilitate a dog, you will put yourself and your dog in sever danger :scared:

Some VERY experienced and registered with governing bodies trainers that have given great advice the most promenent has been
THIS CANOT BE DELT WITH OVER THE INTERNET (OR TV!!!) SO PLEASE SEEK ADVICE FROM A EXPERIENCED BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION SPECIALIST!!!

ArtemesiaEloise regardless of what anyones view of the guy is this is dangerous advice! This iis a forum and people come here for opinions but to suggest a dog that has bitten can be cured by the owner watching a TV programme is dangerous and reckless! Sorry but my very honest opinion :nono:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sue&harvey said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> PLEASE SEEK ADVICE FROM A EXPERIENCED BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION SPECIALIST!!!
> 
> ...


well said, sue - 
this is not a majik-wand fix, and the owner needs to be very careful to select a credentialed pro, 
not a TV-presenter - who BTW will not have seen or met the dog, the owner, the child, the grand-dad, etc.

generic *one size fits all* advice, from a remote source, can only go so far - 
and in the case of CM/DW :lol: i personally would go as far + as fast as i could, in the opposite direction.  
(joking - but i could not resist the image,  sorry)

i do hope the OP finds local help - and soon. 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ArtemesiaEloise said:


> Some people don't like him - they seem to feel threatened by him


Correction - (jab, jerk, kick) - it's not that we don't like HIM, it's just that we don't like his methods. Neither do these people - Welfare in Dog Training The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan APBC Continues to Challenge Cesar Millan | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

All far more eminantly qualified in my humble opinion. :yesnod: 

Exercise, discipline and affection? Not exclusive to him! Most people who have maintained an interest in dog training and behaviour have been saying it for years!


Just thought I would make the point so that others reading do not think they should be playing the dodgy game of 'Cesar Says'. Back to topic. <g>


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ArtemesiaEloise said:


> Hi
> 
> I've never had this problem with my GSD (though almost every other), and all trainers contradicted each other with my dog - the only thing that saved me - and if at all possible I'd advise anyone to do the same, is to watch Cesar Millan on Sky satellite Ch 8 and National Geographic Sky: NatGeoWild 528, 'The Dog Whisperer', tonight 7pm and 8pm. Lots of books available on the internet too.
> 
> ...


Hi

Welcome to the forum.

If you post in this section anything positive about Cesar Milan, you will get shot down. I just thought I would give you that warning!

I am a big fan and he has massively helped me with my rescues.

However, I don't agree with the average person using alpha rolls. They are often used in frustration and to correct a dog when it has done something wrong.

His philisophy of exercise, discipline and leadership are spot on.

I just though I would give you a warning.

x


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## Dspot (May 16, 2010)

Im very sorry you find yourself in this position. I have heard of some Golden Cockers being very unpredicatable so this may be an issue. I understand that you love your dog but your son and family come first. I agree with the other post here that maybe a behavoural examination would be worth while before you make any decision. I hope it all works out


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *she cannot possibly supervise, every single time dog + child are together.*


Oh, right, gotcha. I thought people were saying she'd left him this time.

I kind of agree with her, for one split second you're attention could be on something else, even if you are in the same room. It's all it takes.

However, for any period of time you're out of the room, you can seperate them.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> If you post in this section anything positive about Cesar Milan, you will get shot down. [snip]...
> 
> His philisophy of exercise, discipline and leadership are spot on.


now, vic - :ihih:
U know perfectly well that is NOT true; we agree he has very nice teeth, and a charming manner.

we even agree that 
* exercise 
* rules 
* leadership 
are all Good Things - 
we also agree that every vet, trainer, groomer, etc, has said each one from time immemorial -

*personally, i would bet that back when dogs kept us warm at night, and scavenged our trash for food, 
before leashes were invented, Cro-Magnon dog-keepers told their clansmen and clan-women that exercise 
was important, or the dog would not hunt well; that rules like don;t take food that i am eating are good; 
that teaching the dog NOT to bark while they stalked something, or FLED something-else, were Good Rules. *

and then, as now, i would bet that many dog-keepers utterly ignored the advice - 
and then complained about their dogs, which they could conveniently eat if they were sufficiently displeased 
by their behavior.  most of us modern-humans will not do that - _*kill + eat a dog, to get rid of both 
the objectionable behavior + the dog... *_ but i would not be surprised if early-humans did.

hopefully, this dog will be rehabilitated in a more civilized manner. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

How many times do people have to point out that the "exercise, discipline and affection" philosophy wasn't invented by CM?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

As far as I am concerned owning a dog should be a pleasure for both dog and family. Locking it in a crate every time you go out of the room would give no pleasure to anyone - I have never heard of anything so ridiculous. Everyone I know that has dogs has them as part of the family which includes the kids.

This dog has overstepped the mark and is obviously not safe to keep any longer. Never mind what made it do it, it did bite and it inflicted a lot of damage to an adult, never mind the child it was attacking. To me there is only one answer and that is a one way trip to the vet. Not fair to pass the problem on to someone else and not appropriate, while dog and child have to live in the same house, to go the behaviourist route unless the owner wants to take the risk.

It is very sad but it has happened and the owner needs to take the responsible view and not risk a second bite. If it had been a little nip would be one thing but it sounds like a full blown attack and it would be very irresponsible to keep the dog after that.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Correction - (jab, jerk, kick) - it's not that we don't like HIM...


now, caro - 
doncha think we can lure Art-Eloise into a better position?  i prefer to see ppl happily co-operate, myself, 
:laugh: even when a prong-collar and a sharp tug are tempting images... 


CarolineH said:


> ...it's just that we don't like his methods. Neither do these people -
> Welfare in Dog Training
> The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan
> APBC Continues to Challenge Cesar Millan | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
> ...


yes, and reputable resources, too. :thumbsup: 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Locking (the family dog) in a crate every time you go out of the room would give no pleasure to anyone - I have never heard of anything so ridiculous. Everyone I know that has dogs has them as part of the family which includes the kids.


hey, blitz! :--)

U don;t have to *lock the dog in a crate every time U leave the room - * 
U can *leave the child(ren)* to play, and *take the dog(s)* with U.

U can *leave the dog* in the room, and *take the child(ren)* with U.

U can *put the dog* in an adjoining room, *behind a baby-gate, OR* if the kids are under-7-YO and will reach 
thru the baby-gate, or older + will open it despite directions, *a closed + latched door.*

*while U cook* dinner, or dice vegies, *the dog can be in the kitchen* on a mat - 
out of the way, but under Ur eye, as is any child who comes in the room.

there are plenty of work-arounds that are safe, for both dog(s) + kid(s), 
but keep everybody supervised during interactions, by an adult. :001_cool:

the locked-crate was specified because the OP said that she could not prevent her 5-YO from releasing 
the dog - thats why a padlock was specified. and in particular, for those times when she is OUT of the house, 
and her son + her father are there - this avoids asking G-dad to monitor constantly, he can just mind the boy, 
and not worry about the dog, safely confined.

every trainer that i know, without exception, says that kids + dogs should only be together *when supervised* - 
any parent knows when their own child is mature-enuf to be apropos with the family-dog; generally by 10-YO 
most kids are fine, with most dogs; SOME kids are 12-YO before they are trustworthy, others never are. (shrug)

SOME dogs are simply too excitable, like many terrierrists, who will redirect their excitement (EX: bark at the window 
when they see a cat) onto the child who comes to lead them away, and will nip or even bite; such dogs cannot be left 
with a child of any age, unsupervised, as an adult has to be on hand to interrupt any over-arousal.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Just to say that I saw neutering and Cesar Millan recommended in previous posts. 

1. Neutering will only help if an overload of testosterone is a problem, I don't believe it is in this case. It sounds like classic nervous aggression (this is just from reading this and *mustn't* be taken as gospel without a behaviourist confirming) and if so neutering could actually lower the dog's confidence and make things worse. 

2. Watching CM and following his bullying techniques will result in you or your kids getting attacked again. I vehemently disagree with his methods in any dog but none more so than the scared and aggressive one. CM is just for TV, it is highly edited to make it look like a miracle cure, and he uses physical and mental punishment which is well known to make nervous aggression worse. Even the show's makers recommend you don't use the methods he does at home! The show is a fairy story at best and lethal at worst. It can never be a replacement for a veterinary overhaul and behaviourist intervention. BH most good trainers haven't got a good word to say about that man.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Blitz said:


> Never mind what made it do it, it did bite and it inflicted a lot of damage to an adult, never mind the child it was attacking. To me there is only one answer and that is a one way trip to the vet.


Of course it matters what made this dog bite, I really don't understand the mentality behind that statement. If someone beat your dog until it bit them, who would you put down? I know who'd have to run for their life in mine lol. I'm not saying that happened in this case, but the truth is noone knows what that man did to the dog to "punish" it for snapping at the child. The OP has admitted this dog had previously been physically and mentally bullied by their "training" methods. If someone forces a dog to roll on it's back, or uses that "you will submit" mentality, we're not talking about this dog just being removed from the child, are we? Something happened.

I do think if they're not going to get out of the mentality of forcing a dog to submit that it would be better off put to sleep. But as for it "not mattering" what someone did to this dog to make it bite, I have to disagree strongly. Of course it matters, dogs are not robots, they are animals and as such can't be expected to put up with everything without sticking up for themselves. Unfortunately for the OP, her child and her dad, this is a harsh way to learn to have more care and respect for the animals in your home.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Just to say that I saw neutering and Cesar Millan recommended in previous posts.
> 
> 1. Neutering will only help if an overload of testosterone is a problem, I don't believe it is in this case. It sounds like classic nervous aggression (this is just from reading this and *mustn't* be taken as gospel without a behaviourist confirming) and if so neutering could actually lower the dog's confidence and make things worse.
> 
> 2. Watching CM and following his bullying techniques will result in you or your kids getting attacked again. I vehemently disagree with his methods in any dog but none more so than the scared and aggressive one. CM is just for TV, it is highly edited to make it look like a miracle cure, and he uses physical and mental punishment which is well known to make nervous aggression worse. Even the show's makers recommend you don't use the methods he does at home! The show is a fairy story at best and lethal at worst. It can never be a replacement for a veterinary overhaul and behaviourist intervention. BH most good trainers haven't got a good word to say about that man.


Top post. Totally agree with every word.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Of course it matters what made this dog bite...
> If someone beat your dog until it bit them, who would you put down?
> I know who'd have to run for their life in mine :lol:


hey, kathy! :--) 
thats precisely why my middle-nephew NEVER met my Akita, in her lifetime; he saw her, as she entered + left the house, 
on-leash - PERIOD. he has ADHD and torments + teases whenever he is bored, and has a firecracker temper - 
so rather than have him inevitably cause my dog to bite, and me to strangle him subsequently, they never met.  
saved an enormous amount of grief on all sides... 


KathyM said:


> ...the truth is no-one knows what that man did to the dog (as) "punish(ment)"...
> for snapping at the child. ...this dog had previously been physically and mentally bullied by their "training" methods.
> If someone forces a dog to roll on it's back, or uses that "you will submit" mentality, we're not talking about this dog
> just being removed from the child, are we? Something happened.


thats a distinct possibility - especially if as i suspect, the dog was already reacting to the collar-grab - 
any further up-close + personal intervention, particularly if Grand-dad yelled or grabbed, would really escalate things.

a *justified* bite is one that can be readily explained as understandable, from the dogs POV; 
a dog snapping + growling a warning at the vet after a short-lived but very painful intramuscular injection is justified; 
the short but vivid pain *justifies* the snap, which did no damage, and the growl, which warned.

a *provoked* bite is one where the dog was teased, harassed, cornered + threatened, or otherwise *made to bite - * 
chasing a frightened stray into a fence corner + attempting to grab the strays collar is a *provoking* incident, 
and if U are indeed bitten, U have only Urself to blame, IMO.

this dogs bite may have been justified or provoked, or simply *defensive - * 
as this dog has a history of aversive corrections and threatening behavior from the owner, possibly from the family, 
being conditioned to be paranoid about restraint would not surprise me. 
but without a full description of the incident from the Grand-dad, we can only speculate. 
a 5-YO cannot give us a detailed description, and *mum was not in the room, ATT.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Of course it matters what made this dog bite, I really don't understand the mentality behind that statement. If someone beat your dog until it bit them, who would you put down?


We are not talking about a dog that was beaten till it bit. We are talking about a dog that attacked a child because the child held it back from going through a door, quite rightly the grandfather beat the dog off the child and he got bitten for his pains. The dog is now known to bit. Ok, under different circumstances it might not have bitten, but it did and has now proved that it will inflict damage if things dont go its way - so I stand by what I said.

What I cannot understand is the mentality that would rather preserve the life of a dog and put a family at risk.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Where have I said that I would preserve the dog's life over the child? What a silly and completely unjustified statement.  I think perhaps you could do with re-reading people's posts before making such comments - you'll clearly see I've said no such thing.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> We are talking about a dog that attacked a child because the child held it back from going through a door, *quite rightly the grandfather beat the dog off the child and he got bitten for his pains.* The dog is now known to bite. Ok, under different circumstances he might not have bitten, but he did and has now proved that he will inflict damage if things dont go his way - so I stand by what I said.


wow, blitz - 
let me make sure that i have the right-end of the stick :huh: U are saying that *Grand-dad beating the dog is justified?* :blink: 
the dog did not even leave a MARK on the child - and Grand-dad *kicked the dog.* IMO that is an over-reaction - 
the dogs response was mostly verbal: *he snarled*; Grand-dad was the one who escalated the situation, by using very 
significant force on a ?? 35#?? dog?



Blitz said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> What I cannot understand is the mentality that would rather preserve the life of a dog *and put a family at risk.*


as several of us have already pointed-out, and so did the OP - 
over the 14-mos they have had him, there was NO prior indication of aggro, and even under pretty severe provocation 
(rolling, pinning, take food, take bones, take toys, etc...) the OP herself never felt the least bit threatened by the dog - 
IOW, he is compliant with her, which makes me wonder if the men in his first-family were physically punishing, 
or if he has a past-history of being teased? poked? hit?

in sum, there is *nothing* to indicate that the *family* is at risk, nor did we collectively advocate coddling the dog - 
to the contrary, we are all suggesting *better boundaries, safer management, and a professional assessment, 
with behavior-modification. * but it all starts with better management.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> PoisonGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Then you are calling me a liar
> ...


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

Wow - I find it very scary that someone would recommend watching a TV show which is highly edited - to sort out a dog that has already bitten someone. No no no - please dont do this - this dog needs a proper behaviourist, not some TV star or interpretation of his (IMO outdated and barbaric) training. This person does not need to try anything she's watched on TV - this has gone much further than that, indeed taking on training based on a TV show or book is what MAKES dogs like this. If you are not a behaviourist, you are not capable of sorting this out without professional help. And a Cesar Milan show is not professional or help!

Another thing which hasn't been mentionned is the other end of the lead. It sounds very much like both the dad and child need to learn how to behave around animals, and if they cant do so, then you should not have one. If you cant crate your dog without your child releasing it against your wishes (as you've said), then it's not just the dog that needs training, but your child too. If he does not follow a grown up's instructions (ie stay away from the dog, dont touch it, or dont let it loose), then it sounds like he needs training just as much as the dog does. That is also your responsibility.

IMO, if you cant seek professional help AND contain him in the meantime, then the most humane option is having him put to sleep before he can harm anyone else and get another kicking for it.

And this - take note - is why you should NEVER EVER use pack ranking methods. You have taught your dog to cut out the growling and go straight to bite. You've taken away his bite inhibition. Rolling him means he now sees you as his aggressor, and therefore anything goes.

I hope you can seek professional help, but if not - please either take him to someone who can (and let them know his FULL history of aggression, no covering up!), or take him to be pts before he suffers any more.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

lucylou432 said:


> *however*... without every adult in the house being fully committed to every-single interaction being supervised,
> 
> I am the only adult in the house. There is me, my son and the dog. When I have to go out (as it was yesterday when I had to go to the supermarket) I either take Jacob with me or arrange for my dad to stay in the house with them.
> 
> I have come onto this forum to get help - to try to find an answer other than kill the dog - which is what everyone here is telling me to do. I phoned the cocker spaniel rescue to ask for help and their advice was have him destroyed instantly as if he hurts anyone else you will be sued.


I know it can be difficult having to supervise dogs all the time but it's not impossible, 
I am the only adult in my house, I have 4 kids 2 dogs, a cat, a giant rabbit, 3 gp's and 2 tortoises and last week my cat killed my hamster....yup....u can't see it all....but where the dogs are concerned you HAVE to, you have to make sure you can supervise BEFORE you bring a dog into the home, it's pointless gettng a rescu dog if eventually it's gonna have to go back to the home....this is when it becomes a cycle of pillar to post existance for the poor thing.
Whattakes a lot of time in the short term will make for a lot less time in the long run, GOOD dog trainer, consistancy and a lot of hard work fora while, workind with your son and ensuring that he does as he's told and listens to you over the dog, teaching him respect for animals, even something as little as explaining why he has to leave the dog alone when he's in cetain places I E the cage is all about respect for the dog....and also giving him boundries and rules....there's no reason why it cant work to have son and dog living alongside each other, it's just going to take a little time effort and consistancy thats all
clare


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## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

There have been a huge number of points made which I want to try and respond to both on this thread on on profile page conversations.

I have accepted that 'pack leader' techniques are not the latest idea or maybe the best idea but for a long time they were considered good and I was acting in a way I honestly believed was right and fair. It seemed to work and it was not something I had to repeat. Baring in mind this was some time ago, I thought I was doing right and it wasnt some crazy idea thought up by me in the first place but in fact a method that was not so long ago widely used do you think the aggressive attack I received was fair? 

The supervision question -and also the comment on a profile conversation that I refuse to supervise my child and dog. I'm just being honest. I would never leave my child playing in the garden with the dog. Never leave them in the same room while I went to do something else. The fact is I dont believe you can be alert and vigilent all the time. And a bite only takes a second.

Its like when you are driving a car. You should always be alert and with your mind on your driving and whats happening on the road. If not the consequences would be fatal. But who hasnt driven while chatting, singing to music, having a biscuit or drink, when they were a little tired? Have you really never had a child or dog in the car and had them do something which distracted you? Or reached over to change a cd or the radio station? Every day I see people driving while on their phone, sometimes even while applying make up. I have never spoken on the phone when driving but I must admit there are moments when I am distracted at the wheel.

Supervising a child and dog is the same. A week ago had you said do I always supervise Jacob and Monty I would have probably said yes. But this has made me realise how supervision has to be 100% alertness 100% of the time. I dont believe this is possible.

Incidently I have now seen a vet and a behaviourist and without me mentioning this both said independantly you cannot supervise every interaction between a child and a dog. 

Some people said I wasnt taking the advice given. Thats not fair. I kept commenting in order to answer questions and accusations. The advice to get a behaviourist was good advice. In fact I was already using a behaviourist with Montys obseesion with other dogs and his inability to be clean in the house and after many months of work both those had improved drastically.

I was also accused of making excuses so when comments were made like just padlock the crate or take the dog with you to the loo I saw little point in saying that these things had already been tried. The crate was locked but my son managed to open the end rather than the door in a way I didnt think you could open it. After that the ends were cable tied but it doesnt stop fingers being poked in and I would see that as an invasion of Montys secure space and maybe attracting a more justified response.

My child needs training too. Yes thats true but I have been spending a lot of time trying to teach jacob what he can and cannot do with Monty. Jacob though is a typical 5 yo. He can be so sure sometimes that he is right and I am not, as soon as he gets the chance he sets out to prove me wrong. Its not just with Monty but with all things. It usually ends in him being hurt. He doesnt seem to have learnt yet. 

When it comes to Jacob and Monty interacting Jacob has I'm sure done things which Monty didnt like. I'm sure I did similar things to Nina, the cocker I grew up with. Kids and dogs arent a perfect mix and there has to be learning on both sides. Jacob has always been given clear instructions not to disturb Monty in his bed, while asleep or while eating. He was repeatedly told how Monty was alive and had feelings and if he treated Monty kindly and gently that Monty would be the same with him. 

On sunday Jacob was out and I was playing with monty in the garden when without warning a friend of jacobs appeared climbing over the hedge. He had never entered the garden this way before to the best of my knowledge and it gave me a fright him appearing suddenly. Monty spotted him and rushed over woofing. Now this is exactly the response I would have expected from monty but I would have thought that the worst that would happen would be monty either knocked taylor over by jumping up or possibly scratching him also by an exuberant welcome. However following the bite on saturday I panicked, screamed at monty to get back, screamed at taylor to get out and was left shaking and very upset.

Incidently Monty was neutered.

My dad did kick monty. He kicked him when Monty was biting his hand in an effort to get the dog off. Maybe it was a bad thing to do but in a split second he had to decide whether to use his other hand or his foot to get monty off him. I dont blame him for his reaction.

Dad has had cockers all his life. He has experience of breeding, working, showing them. There was no reason why he wasnt perfectly capable of supervising the dog and shild in the same way I do.

In the end, both the vet and the behaviourist (who has known monty for 6 months) felt that the severe nature of the attack and the fact that there was a child in the house meant that Monty should not stay. Rehoming was considered but even with full disclosure of what had happened and an offer of mine to pay for a further 6 months help for the new owner the behaviourist felt there was always going to be a risk he could turn again.

The vet checked him for obvious health problems and suggested there may be something we cant see going on.

Yesterday Monty was PTS in my arms. He had to be muzzled for the procedure and his last action was poking his tongue through the end of his muzzle to lick my tears. They are flowing again as I write this. As soon as the needle was out the muzzle has taken off and he lay in my arms. It was the most dreadful experience of my life and nothing good or bad you lot say will change the huge guilt I feel and the desperate grief in our house right now.

Monty yesterday was the monty I always saw. friendly, loving, affectionate. He was my beautiful Monty Moo and I pray he is safe at the bridge now


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I am so very sorry for your loss. You faced a difficult decision. In my opinion you did the right thing. As I said, it was a decision I faced. Luckily I don't have children and therefore was able to live with it. 

I think you are very brave. A lot of people would either have just given up or made it someone elses problem. You took responsibility and dealt with it. 

Please don't take the critism about the pack leader stuff to heart. For what it's worth it is how I manage my pack of dogs. Nobody can say why're dog did as it did. 

Thinking of you at this very difficult time x x x


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Am so sorry for you & your son; this must have been a very difficult time.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Sleep tight Monty. .


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I am so very sorry for your loss. You faced a difficult decision. In my opinion you did the right thing. As I said, it was a decision I faced. Luckily I don't have children and therefore was able to live with it.
> 
> I think you are very brave. A lot of people would either have just given up or made it someone elses problem. You took responsibility and dealt with it.
> 
> ...


Echoed.

Feel for you, but well done on you for making a really hard decision. Glad to see you talked it over with the behaviourist first.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Really sorry for Monty and ((Hugs)) to you and your little boy

Juliexx


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I have been away and have missed this thread. 

I own a cocker and a snappy one at that (which hopefully we have worked through to a degree), i also have small children so i totally understand the issues you talk about, 100% supervision in a "normal" family home isn't possible when the outcome of one slip up could be so serious.

My cocker has gone for my kids (he had guarding issues) on a couple of occassions but they were misplaced air snaps or warning nips, nothing like what you have described, as sad as it is i think you have probably made the right decision but i am sure that doesn't make you feel any better about it all. 

I am so sorry you had to face this situation, it must have been very difficult for you and your little boy, sending a hug .


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## poppydog1 (Mar 26, 2010)

So sorry to you it has been a hard time for you, its a shame no more could be done, but you had to make the hard choice that was right for you and your family.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Oh hun,big hug,im so sorry to hear that Monty was PTS xxx


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

So, so sorry i dont know what else to say really, you have done the right thing if he had bit someone or your child again it would have certainly come to this then and you would have had the guilt of someone been hurt again, tbh which ever way you went you couldnt win.


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## Fyfer (Jan 23, 2010)

really sorry for your loss and hearing the depth of your pain.
And how it was difficult to hear accusations on this board when you were looking for advice about what do to.

I'm coming to this late and would like to remind everyone that when we judge or blame, it makes it much more difficult for the reader/listener to take in our message. If we stick to facts and information, it's much more neutral and easier to take in. In short, it's more helpful. Please, can we try to reign in the judgement -- no matter how 'right' we think we are, adding our judgement will make it harder for our message to get across.

A final word -- reading your post brought tears to my eyes, too. I cuddled my pup and have redoubled my resolve to keep learning and training. Thank you for sharing your story, your openness in sharing your pain, and the sweetness of Monty's last gesture. 

Still teary,

Fyfer


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I have just read this thread and i'm lost for words.My heart goes out to you at this sad time.My thoughts are with you.xxx*


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## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

lucylou432 said:


> There have been a huge number of points made which I want to try and respond to both on this thread on on profile page conversations.
> 
> I have accepted that 'pack leader' techniques are not the latest idea or maybe the best idea but for a long time they were considered good and I was acting in a way I honestly believed was right and fair. It seemed to work and it was not something I had to repeat. Baring in mind this was some time ago, I thought I was doing right and it wasnt some crazy idea thought up by me in the first place but in fact a method that was not so long ago widely used do you think the aggressive attack I received was fair?
> 
> ...


I haven't commented earlier in this thread because I didn't feel I had the knowledge or experience to offer anything valid, but can I just say I am really, really sorry that you have had to make this awful decision.

I don't know you or the dog and I am in tears after reading this post - God knows how you must be feeling.

You obviously loved your dog but had to put the welfare and safety of your family first, and that is what you did.

He is now safe, well, and free from whatever demons troubled him and one day you will all be reunited.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

What is the Prognosis for Your Aggressive Dog | k9aggression.com

this is a very-reputable source, a website run by a vet-behaviorist, 
specifically dedicated to the topic of aggression in dogs, whether directed at humans or non-humans.

this particular page deals with prognosis - 
there are also very-helpful pages on B-Mod.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## PawsandPurrs-Bridgnorth (Apr 8, 2010)

So very sorry for your loss.


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## Murphyandfi (Oct 9, 2009)

I really feel for you as I know just how hard it was to have Monty Pts.

I had a lovely rescue collie for 3yrs until early April this year. He came to me from a rescue, a 3yr old undersocialised and unhappy dog, but the rescue were told differently and I got him only 3 days after he came in to them.

He bit other dogs on the face, no warning and no stopping to find out if they were friend or foe, he just went for them if they came too close. I worked with him for 3 yrs and it did improve to the point where he could mix with other dogs as long as they didn't bounce on him. Unfortunately last year a regular visitor (teenager) startled him by leaning over him to give him a hug and he snapped at her face and caught her eyebrow. I didn't take issue with him, just told off the girl for frightening him.

The second and last episode was in April. My brother and I sitting having a coffee in the conservatory as we did every couple of weeks. My brother had a new pup at home and my collie was intently sniffing his trousers for a few minutes then looked at my brother for a split second before he launched himself at his face and shredded his top lip and knocked my brother's front tooth loose. Lots of blood, stitches and a vision I would love to be able to forget.

My dog had learned from an early age that if something frightened you, a dog, a sudden movement, the smell of something threatening - you bit it's face and it would go away. He was right, it always worked.

The rescue were prepared to take him back and keep him, he wasn't rehomable and in good conscience, I wouldn't want him to have gone to another home, for their sake and his. Life in a kennel forever was unthinkable too so I too had my beloved dog PTS. Over 2 months on and I still feel like poop about it, it was a choice between two evils, and nothing can make you feel any better about doing it. I just have to remember that the only other alternative for him was misery and I just couldn't have kept him knowing that it was a matter of time before some other person/dog was bitten in the face again. Broke my heart.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I don't know what else to say.

Run free Monty.


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## Denise Jonty&Dulcie (Mar 19, 2010)

So sorry for your loss what a dreadful decision to have to make--how brave and sensible you are--god bless Monty---positive thoughts and wishes for you--Denise


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Poor Monty- R.I.P little man.

I feel awful reading this thread today as it is my dog Montys 3rd birthday today.

PTS any animal is a difficult task and even harder when you have grown so close and wanted to do the best for this poor boy who didn't have the best start in life.

Sending you a hug x


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## Sam1309 (May 18, 2010)

only just seeing this thread as i have been working, so very very very sorry for the loss of not only a pet but a family member and companion.



you may feel terrible but you did the right thing, sought all the correct advice and done what you had to, to protect the most precious thing in your life, Jacob.



big hugs for you and Jacob. at least you made Montys later part of his life a good one not locked away in a room, remeber all the memories.


rest in peace Monty


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Oh dear.  Oh dear. I read of a very similar case on another forum where the cocker spaniel attacked the little boy whilst they were playing football in the back garden. Then he bit the dad on the hand when he intervened. He was called Monty too.

RIP Monty. xx


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## merlin39 (Jun 7, 2010)

This is really sad and i know how you feel, we rehomed a rescue dog that was a jrt collie cross. The DT said they had seen his teeth but he had not shown aggression or possesiveness over anything. We only had him a week! as his confidence grew in the house he would stand his ground in doorways growling and spitting at us and when i went to take something off him he shouldn't have had he bit me, not badly but we never feel we could trust him again. He went for my husband too and it just frightened us. he would just snap over silly things like being stroked and would stand there growling and bearing his teeth. it was odd because 85% of the time he was lovely and not a problem. 
We called the DT and they came to collect him that next day as we had just become so frightened of him, on this occasion they said said they could rehome him with someone more experienced as we were first time dog owners. it took us a while to pluck up the courage to get a puppy as we thought it was us causing ollie to be like that! he had an awful start in life, really badly abused and many 'experts' (trainers and breeders) we have relayed this story to have said they should never had rehomed him with us given his breed and past! oh well we have a lovely puppy now! 
i really hope all works out ok for you and you feel at peace with whatever decision you make


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

so sorry to hear you had to have the awful decission that no owner of a dog ever wants to face having there pet pts . You had to think of the saftey of your family and that would you ever be able to rehome this dog with out the worry of a repeat in his behaviour. its a very sad time for you.


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