# Neutering to prevent dog/dog aggressive behaviour



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

My 11 month old dog has, over the last few weeks, begun to display overtly aggresive behaviour to some other dogs. It appears to be directed at both male and female dogs and both neutered and unnutered. There is a lot of posturing and noise,but (to date) no actual physical contact in the form of mouthing or biting. The behaviour is fairly rare. It occurs with perhaps about 1:20 dogs that he meets. it appears to me to be directed at shy, timid dogs in the main as he avoids or ignores confident dogs. Almost bullying behaviour. I am concerned also because his behaviour has led to 2 accidents so far (I was bitten -quite badly- by another dog in the melee and a woman was knocked over by her own dog as it tried to escape from mine. She suffered a cut leg)

When I think back, he has had a couple of small incindents (growling/posturing onlead) prior to this, but coinciding with his sexual maturation.

All this leads me to think that it is perhaps sex related and as such I was thinking of having neutered (allongside appropriate behavioural approaches).

I have discussed this with my vet and he had an injection of (forgot the name) a short acting hormone to counteract the testosterone. This helped his humping behaviour, but as the other behaviour is fairly infrequent (not even once a week) I'm unsure if it helped.

I would be interested in hearing what others have to say on the issue of neutering to help with aggression issues as I realise it's not cut and dried.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I think before you neuter for aggression issues you have to be 100% sure the aggression surfaces due to aggression and not fearfulness or lack of confidence, because if you neuter and the latter situation is the issue then it can't be reversed.


----------



## pitbull85 (Jun 8, 2013)

I agree totally with phoolf, you need to find out what causes these spells of aggression before you go and neuter him. Because like phoolf said that may not fix the problem and then you cant go back. what kind of dog is he? when he has these spells of aggression is it to bigger dogs or smaller dogs? do the other dogs show aggression first of his your dog the aggressor?


----------



## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

how has he been since he had the Tardak injection? if you think it might be helping but you are not sure enough to go for castration at this stage you could try the implant that lasts 6 months to see how he gets on as that more closely mimics castration.

I tried the injection with my collie as he went through a stage of getting into fights (more the other dogs attacking him though) and it actually made things worse so for me confirmed that castration was not the right option at that time.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Neutering can make aggression worse. If the cause of the aggression is that the dog has been scared and is now anxious about other dogs -and therefore shouts Go Away or postures to make himself look scary because he`s afraid. 
What happens is that the percentage of testosterone is lessened. So the dog has less male hormone prompting him to be brave and fight. 
The greater the level of fear, the more likely it is your dog will be aggressive. 
I have had aggressive dogs and find reshaping the behaviour is necessary rather than relying on an uncertain hormonal `cure`. 
This takes time and effort - but it is worth it. 
Two books I found helpful are Fight! by Jean Donaldson and The Dog Aggression Workbook by James O`Heare.
I also recommend you look at the BAT theory.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Kilo has the Suprelorin implant as I wanted to see what the effect upon him of neutering would be. I will most likely be getting him surgically castrated after it as he has stopped being so stressed out by in season bitches, stopped bitching constantly and is less likely it seems to return any posturing and aggro behaviour directed at him by other dogs. It seems that he is much more settled. Other dogs definitely see him as neutered as we have met a few folk who had dogs that can be iffy with intact males who weren't bothered by Kilo at all.


----------



## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Kilo has the Suprelorin implant as I wanted to see what the effect upon him of neutering would be. I will most likely be getting him surgically castrated after it as he has stopped being so stressed out by in season bitches, stopped bitching constantly and is less likely it seems to return any posturing and aggro behaviour directed at him by other dogs. It seems that he is much more settled. Other dogs definitely see him as neutered as we have met a few folk who had dogs that can be iffy with intact males who weren't bothered by Kilo at all.


I think this is the way to go, if you think that his aggression is hormone driven. It is reversable so like Dogless you will be able to make your mind up whether it's going to help to have you dog castrated or not.

Before you make such a big decision, you might like to try a good trainer who can assess what type of aggression your dog is displaying, the APDT is a good place to start Local Dog Trainers Unless its viewed in-situ no one can really be sure. You also need to ask your vet to give him the once over again, as pain and some illnesses, such as a Thyroid problem or Diabetis can cause aggressive behavior.

Whatever you do don't leave it and hope it will get better on it's own, aggression can become a habit, which if left will be really difficult to break.

Good luck to both of you!


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Another here that would say try the implant first .

Chester had the implant and he became more fearful of dogs, so would lunge bark etc .

This to me showed he needs to keep his testosterone , as now the implant has worn off ..his behaviour has improved drastically, not perfect by any means but he does have more confidence.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for the replies.

He's a Brittany. 

I am waiting for a very good behaviourist to get back to me-I hope to see her this week. She is excellent and is known nationally (I don't want to name her). She is an expert on clicker training and I have attended classes she runs with Duke before all this started.

The aggression (or whatever it is) appears to be indiscriminate. Both males and females and both cocky dogs and fearful ones. On the plus side-it never seems to get as far as real fighting-a lot of posturing and noise. 

I'm an experienced dog owner and am completeing my KCAI, so I do have some experience, but I know my limits and am extremely worried that I may make things worse.

"Fear aggression" I don't get. I've heard all the stories and explainations of how it comes about-indeed I've repeated them over the years, but thinking critically about it raises more questions than answers.

It makes no sense whatsoever to pick fights with someone/something you are afraid of. In evolutionary terms this would be disasterous. I cannot think of another mammal which challanges things it is afraid of - including humans. I don't try to pick fights with people I am afraid of. That doesn't make sense at all.

Bottom line: aggression is aggression.


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

With Chester it depends if its off lead or on lead ...Chester will run with dogs off lead, be it very timid , on lead he is a different dog.

Yes aggression is aggression, but it's gives you a better understanding if you know why they behave this way .


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> With Chester it depends if its off lead or on lead ...Chester will run with dogs off lead, be it very timid , on lead he is a different dog.
> 
> Yes aggression is aggression, but it's gives you a better understanding if you know why they behave this way .


absolutly! But I don't understand why being afraid of something would make anyone/anything behave in an aggressive way. Fear is not characterised by aggression, quite the opposite. I would have thought.

How did fear become a reason for aggression? Who first proposed this?

/


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

It's worth noting that the chemical castration (whether tardak or supralorin) does not mimic neutering but tries to simulate it. There is some evidence that dogs do not react the same way as when they are neutered - ie behaviour doesn't change or gets worse with the chemical castration but improves after castration (not my research, but that of a top vet/behaviourist).

I think your doing the best thing getting a behaviourist in as a start as castration on it's own won't change behaviour. Even if you go down that route, the behaviour has been learnt so training will be necessary.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I get very aggressive at the dentist, I'm bloody terrified.


----------



## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

I'm not saying your dog is fear aggressive as I haven't seen what happens to make it aggressive, but I will try to explain what fear aggression is. 

If a dog is fearful, it's not trying to pick a fight per se, its trying to handle what it sees as a fearful situation in the only way it knows how. Fear aggression manifests itself by a dog becoming aggressive out of fear, it fears something so it growls, barks and if the growling and barking doesn't work and that something gets too close will bite, especially if he is tied up - like on a leash - and can't escape. If a dog feels threatened it will usually use flight if it can get away, if not it will fight/bite. Sometimes what it fears, perhaps another dog or person will see the aggression and then not approach, this reinforces - in the dogs mind - that the aggression it has displayed has achieved the desired effect - and made the other dog or person retreat. So in future, anytime a dog encounters another dog or person, it is scared of, it becomes aggressive because it has found that aggression works. 

I have tried to explain what I know of fear aggression and why it occurs in the only way I can, it's really difficult to put it into words, maybe someone else much more knowledgeable than myself may be able to explain it better. 

If you are seeing a behaviourist she will assess your dogs behaviour and be able to explain to you exactly what is making him aggressive - it may be fear it may be something else but if she is as good, she will be able to tell and will be able to advise you what to do about it. 

Brittany Spaniels are a lovely breed BTW

Good luck.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I get very aggressive at the dentist, I'm bloody terrified.


in what way do you exibit aggression at the dentist?

I'm really trying to understand this. If I am afraid of someone I go out of my way to avoid them and I am extremely defferential to them when I am forced into their company. I become quieter and try to make myself unnoticable. I don't shout and scream at them, attracting their attention. I know I am not a dog, but i just doesdn't make sense to me.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> in what way do you exibit aggression at the dentist?
> 
> I'm really trying to understand this. If I am afraid of someone I go out of my way to avoid them and I am extremely defferential to them when I am forced into their company. I become quieter and try to make myself unnoticable. I don't shout and scream at them, attracting their attention. I know I am not a dog, but i just doesdn't make sense to me.


But that's the thing isn't it? It so often depends on the situation, previous experience in the situation or with that person/thing etc. If that person you were afraid of kept doing something to hurt or frighten you you would reach the point where you would react to defend yourself.

Take my experiences with the dentist. I didn't used to be fearful, just a little nervous like most people are. Then I had a bad experience with a dentist who hurt me. A lot. And kept on hurting me despite my pleas for her to stop. Next visit I was quieter, more withdrawn and a lot more anxious. The same sort of thing happened again, I was hurt badly. And again. And again. Over and over. These days I'm anything but calm and quiet at the dentists. By the time I reach the treatment room I'm in a full blown panic and I have a tendency to warn the dentist off and make threats before they've even touched me. If those threats aren't heeded and the dentist refuses to listen to me when I ask them to stop I will get physically violent. All through being frightened. And I'm a rational creature who can think things through and have things explained to me. But when that fear gets a grip all that goes out the window.

I saw the same sort of process with my previous dog towards other dogs. Rupert started out anxious and unsure but non aggressive. After repeatedly being "attacked" (some were genuine attacks, others were bullying type behaviour with no real intent) by strange dogs he became very defensive and if his warnings were not heeded he too became physically violent. All because he was frightened and pushed beyond what he could handle. And of course the aggression worked so over time it became a learned behaviour as well.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

thank you sarah. *That* makes sense!

I won't rush into getting him neutered. But I don't think he's doing it because he's afraid because some of the dogs he picks "fights" with are extremely paqssive and non threatening. One was a female 7 month old GSD who was bloody terrified of him!


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Is he being aggressive or a bully? Although essentially the same thing in different degrees, I find far more 'bullies' than truly aggressive dogs.

Generally, they tend to be dogs whose personality is stronger than the owners.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> thank you sarah. *That* makes sense!
> 
> I won't rush into getting him neutered. But I don't think he's doing it because he's afraid because some of the dogs he picks "fights" with are extremely paqssive and non threatening. One was a female 7 month old GSD who was bloody terrified of him!


You're welcome  It can be a difficult thing to get your head around because it isn't rational lol.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Is he being aggressive or a bully? Although essentially the same thing in different degrees, I find far more 'bullies' than truly aggressive dogs.
> 
> Generally, they tend to be dogs whose personality is stronger than the owners.


now that's an extremely interesting comment!

I think he's a bully. He has never made contact so far--just lots of posturing, chasing and growling/snarling. He avoids like the plauge any dogs which are confident.

AND, he is my first non collie and I've most definatly been much more +ve reward training with him-I have rarely told him off, trying to divert him and distract him instead. Maybe that's my mistake, because I have never had a dog/dog aggressive dog before. My dogs have all been very sociable with other dogs (though he is perfectly well behaved 80% of the time).

A wierd issue that's happened at the same time is he sometimes lunges at other dogs when he's onlead and too close. I am managing this. It frst became apparent when, out of the blue, he went ballistic in the vet's at the other dogs in the waiting room. This just happened all of a sudden. on the previous visit to the vet, I had taken both my dogs and they behaved impeccably. Sitting quietly, ignoring all the other dogs (as he had always done before). The vet nurses were really surprised and came over to me to ask if everything was OK. I am going to start re-training him at the vet this week (he doesn't need any treatment-I shall go and sit in the waiting room when it's quiet and reward him for good, calm behaviour, using treats and clicker) I think I should be able to get him to behave better there becasue it's predictable. Not so when we wre out walks (off lead).


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Can't say it helped with any of my boys tbh and neutering made no difference to an entire male attacking Flynn. I have always said that as Flynn has been assessed by three different behaviourists as fear reactive the neutering has made him worse. Taken away that little bit of confidence he obviously needed. He was done at sixteen months old and I just wish I'd have waited for the teenage phase to have passed before being so hasty. 

Mals of course are known not to be very dog friendly but our two terrier crosses are also reactive and were castrated at one and two years old. 

I totally agree with what others have said about making sure it is aggression and not fear because if its fear you'll open a can of worms by castrating. Dogs can be attacked just as much by showing fear as they can for being entire. I'd go with the longer lasting implant and see how it goes over six months and wish I'd done the same.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> My *11-month-old dog* has [displayed overtly-aggro behaviour to some other dogs.
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> ...


_
I'm taking it for granted that U have no plans to breed him. Ergo, were he mine, i'd desex him, 
as he is just as well-off without them, both IMO & IME across more than 30-years of training 
others' dogs, plus as a vet's assistant. I've seen plenty of Ms "before" & "after", including 
aggression cases, & yes, it did help.

Moreover:
- he's 11-MO. There's no need to "wait for him to mature". 
- he humps; that's an intrusive, rude, bossy behavior. It won't make him popular with many 
other dogs, & can easily spark a snark, scuffle, or a real fight.

For those who claim it will CAUSE him to become more-fearful, i can only say 'balderdash'.
For years i've helped various nonprofit rescues, & seen hordes of shy or even semi-feral dogs.
We *desexed* them all; not One got 'worse' post-neuter - ever. I think that's a total myth,
about par with the Easter bunny or the tooth-fairy. 

Also, i'm not going to bother discussing it - instead, i'll leave U'all a page-link that discusses 
*pediatric* desex -  which is anything from 7-WO to 12-WO. 
Early (Pediatric) Spay/Neuter

Any healthy pup or kitten that weighs at least 2# can be desexed before being adopted; 
most shelters will not release any intact animal, even a juvie, as so many adopters fail to neuter. 
Compliance in the USA only averages 60%, & that's WITH a repossession contract PLUS a fine.

If it's safe & effective for an 8-WO, & the statistics say it is, surely a dog who's close to a year
can be neutered without undue worry. :yesnod:_


----------



## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

Excellent advice indeed from Supasilfoxy.
I support your theory also re aggression being aggression and my experience of fear aggression being related directly to the situation. If the dog can't flight, it will fight.
A good specialist will assess the situation, diagnose the cause and provide a programme of behaviour training to eradicate the problem and this is the best way forward rather than surgery or chemicals.
Theory is excellent, but practical experience of managing aggression over many years will hopefully pay dividends and the trainer you mention will help you with your training.
This type of aggression in my 45 years of training can only be addressed by a hands on approach and advice provided in print without actually seeing, touching and smelling the actual dog and its' handler can aggravate the situation and I support your actions in going down this path.
I and many others could predict until the cows come home but it would be a lottery, the odds in finding a proper solution would be immense.
I wish you the best of luck, there is a solution, rest assured, please let us all know how it works out

Willylee


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behavior
J O'Heare, I Aggression - 2003 - shelbymarlo.com, PDF

The Controversy is Over: Prepubertal Neutering is the Surgery of Choice
J Young - plannedpethoodplus.com - HTML

_Neutering in general reduces roaming (>90%), reduces inter-male aggression (>60%), reduces
urine marking (>50%) ... It should be clear that an intact male dog represents a threat to himself 
& ..._

BTW, the largest study i've seen on desex in M-dogs vis-a-vis marking was that it was reduced not 
by "more than 50%", but by more than 90%. IOW with no other intervention but desex, nearly all 
stopped marking indoors [not out].


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I've spoken to the trainer/behaviourist (who knows both me and him. I have known her for many years and with many dogs). We are meeting next week and I'll update you. In the meantime she feels that his bahaviour is due to over confidence and pushing the boundaries associated with his age. She feels it is more a training issue than a behavioural one and has given me some things to work on till we meet.

LfL, thanks for the links-that gives me some food for thought. I have *ABSOLUTLY NO INTENTION* of breeding-him or any other dog. 
He only humps people, not other dogs and even then, he is carefull who he does it to--me, grandchildren and neice, not my husband (who does not tolerate it and shouted at him the first time he tried-he never tried again) or my daughter (ditto). This makes me think it is pushy and bullying behaviour and I have possibly not been "firm" enough with him. They are a very soft breed and I have been anxious not to squash his personality, but I fear I have maybe gone too far the other way! His father, mother and grandfather are both very confident, working Brittanys.

In the meantime I am concentrating on loose lead walking (lots of it! We live in a very rural area and he's rarely on lead, so that's been neglected and is entierly my own fault) and the "leave" command. I have progressed to dropping very tastey food on the floor (steak) and he will leave it. I am going to progress to doing this outdoors. He is very food orientated.

Thanks again and I'll get back when I've had my session.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> He only humps ppl, not other dogs & even then, he's carefull who he does it to... me, grandchildren & niece,
> not my DH (who... shouted at him the 1st-time he tried - he never tried again) or my daughter (ditto).
> 
> This makes me think it's pushy & bullying behaviour ...I [may] not been "firm" enough with him.
> ...


Ah - didn't realize all his humpees were humans. :laugh: The stinker. 
Sounds good, i hope it all works well.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

here's another "leave it" example - 
KikoPup is always a safe choice, Emily doesn't use aversives & is excellent at explaining what she's doing & why:

The classic - 
5-yrs old, still better than CM/DW any day. 
How to teach 'leave it'- without intimidation - YouTube

The new clips: Part I
Leave it 1- the most important things to train- clicker dog training - YouTube

Part II
Leave it 2- adding eye contact- clicker dog training - YouTube


----------



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

aaaaah finally a thread on dog to dog aggression!
I wonder what happened to my boy! Thanks L4L for the links, I'm always looking for articles/books on aggression/adolescence. Doesn't seem to be much on it out there.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> ...I'm always looking for articles / books on aggro/ adolescence.
> Doesn't seem to be much on it, out there.


Click to Calm? 
Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog (Karen Pryor Clicker Book): Emma Parsons: 9781890948207: Amazon.com: Books

Feisty Fido?
Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash-Reactive Dog: Patricia B. McConnell Ph.D., Karen B. London Ph.D.: 9781891767074: Amazon.com: Books

Control Unleashed?
Control Unleashed: Creating a Focused and Confident Dog: Leslie McDevitt: 9781892694171: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

I have Click to Calm and Control Unleashed  Im interested as to WHY same sex aggression occours in adolescence and all the jazz behind it  I'm interested in how Charlies mind ticks and why hes okay with some males (entire or not) and goes for other males (entire or not) yet is quite the ladies man!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> I'm interested [in] Why same-sex aggro occurs in adolescence, & all the jazz behind it
> 
> I'm interested in how Charlie's mind ticks, & why he's OK with some males (entire or not),
> & goes for other males (entire or not), yet is quite the lady's man!


is Charly intact? How old is he, now? When did the M:M aggro begin?

typical onset is around 6-MO, but highly-aggro breeds or types such as JRTs, Ovtcharka pups 
in the litter-nest, & others may start earlier - my buddy in Penna. who bred JRTs dearly loved 
her dogs, but she separated them by sex no later than 5-WO to the day, & shuttled Mom-dog 
back & forth between bitch-pups & dog-pups all day - as otherwise her M-pups would harass 
their sisters so relentlessly, there'd be scars on faces & ears from fighting before they're 8-WO.

if Charly is over 6-MO & under 12-MO, this may be enlightening:

SOCIAL HIERARCHIES | Dog Star Daily
SPECIAL NOTE:
actual hierarchies only develop between dogs who live together long-term, & are age-based in Ms.
IOW, the elder M is higher-ranking, but the younger willingly defers; there's no "fight".
This isn't about status - it's resources, access, & age. I include it because of the testosterone info 
during puberty [4-MO to 6-MO] & the spike [9-MO] into the decline to adult-M levels [12- to 15-MO].

Dog Communication | Dog Star Daily

Fighting | Dog Star Daily

M-pups go thru FOUR separate stages of masculinization & testosterone levels:
androgenization in utero, released into the amniotic fluid by the dam, which triggers 2ndary sex
traits like a penis developing from the original vulval tissue, etc.
early into mid-puberty: around 4-MO when pup-license expires, to 6-MO.
the testosterone spike, from 7-MO on, which peaks at 9 to 10-MO at *5 to 7 times* the levels 
secreted in the bloodstream of adult-males over 12 to 15-MO...
& intact-Male adulthood, when testosterone falls from the 10-MO peak to 12 to 15-MO levels, 
where it stays until old-age.

male-pups go thru a long gauntlet of harassment, bullying, social ostracism, intolerance, etc, 
from all adult-dogs of both sexes & any genders [intact or desexed]; they are punished for things 
they didn't even do, but are ASSUMED to have done just cuz they were there.

This is not only incredibly stressful for the pups as pubertal kids & hormonally-flooded teens, 
but they are a trigger-point for other dogs to react to... which teaches them as 'victims' to react, too.
they feel picked-upon [sometimes justifiably, sometimes not], & get touchy.

the reek of a super-male teen dog is a blatant nose-punch for other older dogs, who will react 
to one degree or another - causing HIM to react, in turn. :huh:


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I have just had to bereak up a fight between the pup and my old, deaf dog. It was entierly my fault.

I had left a chew toy in the garden and never thought it would be a problem. Throughout the afternoon one dog, then the other would be chewing it.

All hell broke loose a few minutes ago as the pup viciously attacked my lovely, old, gentle dog. He just wouldn't stop. Even when the older dog was trying to retreat, he continued to go at him. I had to grab him by the collar and remove him. I was sure I'd be bitten, but I wasn't.

On examination my old dog was actually ok, with only one slightly damp area at the side of his neck and I'm wondering if this is another instance of bluster.

I removed him to the utility room to calm down, but t be honest, I am so sickened I don't want to see him.

I have had dogs ALL my life and have never, ever had this problem. This is the first intact dog I have had, but tomorrow I am phoning the vet. The balls are coming off.

I'm so upset.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

And breath!! these incidents sound horrible but they are often all mouth and slobber. But still, they are scary. My Lab and my Slovak had a handbags incident over a bone once. Miss Cocky Pants Bo tried to nick a bone from Dex, my Labrador - big mistake! he decked her and she hasn't dared tried it since. It sounded nasty but it was a bluff.

Personally I would be reluctant to neuter him when he's still growing and in his cocky, pain in the arse stage. His attitude may not necessarily be anything to o with his balls; it might just be his personality. My Bo sounds pretty similar; she will bully submissive dogs but is either a right wimp or goes into flirty playful puppy mode when confronted with a confident dog. Dogs of certain breeds she dislikes and rude dogs get promptly told off. I am very careful of who she mixes with. 

Quite a few of the HPR's aren't renown for their massive tolerance of other dogs and can be a bit arsey.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

thanks for the reply.

I really looked into the breed before I got him and this never came up at all. My dogs have to get along with other dogs because of my lifestyle. I just can't have a dog that won't get along with others. 

I am getting a bit stressed about it all. It's so upsetting when my old dog is so amazing with other dogs and nhas never ever been involved in a fight with another dog in his life. He was a therapet therapy dog and he helped at dog "rehab" classes as he was so calm. 

I'm utterly confused about the nutering thing too, TBH. 1/3 the stuff I read says it makes things better, 1/3 says it makes things worse and 1/3 says it makes no difference! I suppose on balance, that means in 2/3 of the cases it'll either help or not make a difference!!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I've just had to break-up a fight between the pup and my old, deaf dog. ...
> 
> I'd left a chew toy in the garden, & never thought it would be a problem. Throughout the afternoon,
> one dog, then the other, would be chewing it.
> ...


i'm so sorry, but i'm glad the old fella was OK.  Yes, weird small things can trip WW-III.
Thankfully, there wasn't any damage - except that of course, the old dog will be leery of him, 
& the young one had yet another rehearsal of Stuff We Don't Want Him To Do. :nonod:


labradrk said:


> Personally I'd be reluctant to neuter him *when he's still growing* & in his cocky... stage.


 - he's not "still growing"; this is at best, a breed on the bottom-end of medium, or the medium end 
of "small". All his long-bones are long since solidified - his PELVIS is not a long bone, & will be at least 
80% or more, solid bone. Desexing a year-old dog who weighs about 25 to 30# [12 or so kilos] will 
have *zero* effect on his height at the shoulder - which is the thing everybody stresses over. 

- cutting short his "cocky" stage is the entire point.
Aggro can be fueled by testosterone, esp'ly M to M aggro, but it's also *learned*.

The more often he bullies, snarks, argues over space or object-ownership, pushes other dogs' buttons 
or responds to their pushing *his* buttons, the more-practiced he is at pulling his six-shooter out of the 
holster, & cutting loose; take away the bullets, & he may still argue, but it's smoke & bangs, 
with no-one liable to get seriously hurt.

i agree that it could be his own intolerant, short-fused personality - altho that's hard to say, from this 
remove. But even if it IS his persona, reducing the testosterone-level won't make it worse, & has good 
odds of making his behavior a lot-less reactive, which is all to the better.

for the OP:
i'd watch them both for the next 2 to 5 days, especially over anything that can be OWNED:
bones, toys, access to ppl for petting, access to the sofa, & so on. Try to provide private space 
for both dogs to enjoy their OWN chewie, treat, meal, etc, such as feeding in separate rooms, 
or feed one dog crated / one free, turn & turn about, & so on.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

thanks LforL.

I always supervise mealtimes as he became a bit growly a couple of months ago and there have been no issues since.

I'm unsure what to do tonight. They usually sleep together in the utility room, but I;m thinking of separating them. Then again, I don't want him to think he's got the place to himself!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I always supervise mealtimes, as he became a bit growly a couple of months ago, & there have been
> no issues since.
> 
> I'm unsure what to do tonight. They usually sleep together in the utility room, but I'm thinking of separating them.
> Then again, I don't want him to think he's got the place to himself!


Do U have a crate? :huh:

or can the old dog sleep in the bedroom, in the kitchen, or confined by a baby-gate?

if it's possible, i'd crate the young dog & leave the elder at large; if the old dog has continence issues, 
or might fall downstairs, etc, then i'd crate the elder for his safety. :yesnod:


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I never thought of that! Doh!!

I shall crate the bully boy! He's fine in a crate-we only stopped using it a few months ago.

thanks for all the help.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

OK. Decision made.

Taking him to the vet for another Tardak shot. I am going on holiday with him next weekend (a dog walking holiday) and the vet thinks it wouldn't be agood idea to walk him so much so soon after surgery (walks are 4-6 hours a day).

So the balls will come off when we get home and I'll have some help with the hormones when we are away.

Trainer on thursday!


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> OK. Decision made.
> 
> Taking him to the vet for another Tardak shot. I am going on holiday with him next weekend (a dog walking holiday) and the vet thinks it wouldn't be agood idea to walk him so much so soon after surgery (walks are 4-6 hours a day).
> 
> ...


I think that you have made the right decision, regarding both crating and neutering. There's no way your elderly dog should have to tolerate what must be a terrifying situation, especially if he is blind, even if he isn't physically hurt, and there's no way you should have to cop with the stress of worrying about them all of the time.

It may be that your pup is making his bid to replace the old dog in the pack order now that he is reaching sexual maturity, and that once he has acheived this he will calm down, but personally I wouldn't take the risk of him hurting the older dog, or destroying his confidence, or even making his last years a living misery because he is so afraid of the pup. He is a gentle and loving dog and deserves the care you obviously give him. I also have to admit that if it doesn't stop, I would re-home the pup, and you will feel happier doing this if he is neutered, I think. (Hope it doesn't come to that - fingers crossed!)

BTW - this has been a really interesting thread - thank you for posting, though I am very sorry or your difficulties.


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

I went through a similar dilemma a few years back. One of my longcoat GSDs (Yogi) was maturing and turning into a real bully boy - he was usually fine with the other indoor dogs but would attempt to bully some of the outdoor kenneled dogs when they were all exercised together. Of course both myself and hubby tried to stamp on this behaviour before it got out of hand, but he was always prone to having a go  

Anyway there were a couple of incidents where he went for one of my indoor collies (Moss), over something and nothing, and the frightening thing was that he continued to attack Moss even though Moss was submitting and not retaliating in the least. I was so angry at Yogi, that after the second incident I telephoned the vets as soon as I got in and booked Yogi in to be neutered. I ummed and arred about the operation for the days before it happened, but decided it was for the best and went ahead. This was around three years ago, and it is safe to say that although Yogi is now much more well trained and behaved in general, he still has the bullying element to his personality. The neutering had no effect on that whatsoever unfortunately.

He rarely bullies the other dogs for long as he knows he will get a row for it, but he will attempt it if he thinks no-one is watching. 

I do hope that neutering makes a different to your Brittany's behaviour, but I suppose I just wanted to add a word of caution that it may not. So much depends on why they are exhibiting the behaviour in the first place and, with my dog, I think it is just his personality unfortunately.

Good luck and enjoy your holiday.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lostbear said:


> It may be that your pup is *making his bid to replace the old dog in the pack order*
> now that he is reaching sexual maturity...


i will put this as gently as possible: _Toffee._

A, dogs do Not have linear-hierarchy. Even wolves, on whom this twaddle was based, do not.
Wolf-parents are 'dominant' cuz they're *parents*, feeding, caring for, & teaching their kids.
We humans aren't 'dominant' to our own children or kids in our care cuz we fight them for control;
having a debit-card & access to car-keys isn't a matter of aggression, it's AGE.

B, this yearling has been fighting with or snarking at dogs of both sexes, all genders [intact & not],
confident & timid dogs, older & younger dogs - so why is this ONE fight so special? :skep:

Personally, i'd say this was just resource-guarding taken to extremes. RG can happen in any breed, 
as a matter of fact, Goldens are notorious for a strong tendency to guard anything edible - i had 
a really frightening experience with a 3-MO Golden who transformed from a wiggly, happy sociable pup 
to a *roaring, teeth-everted, all gums visible* monster in seconds, over a large brown tablet on the 
floor of a pet-supply store... he was headed toward it, & when the 8-YO boy holding the leash didn't move 
the pup away from the tablet, i picked the pup up bodily. Only reflexes from so many decades of dogs 
saved me from a serious NUMBER of bites - it wouldn't have been 'one'! Over an hour later, adrenalin still 
had my hands shaking, yet once he was immobilized & turned away from the tablet so he couldn't see it, 
he was once again not a rigid roaring muscles-popped demon, but a relaxed happy soft-eyed pup.

Object-ownership is one facet of RG; guarding one's personal space can be RG or simple fear - other spatial 
issues in RG are *access* to special things: the owner's attn or petting, the sofa or a bed, & so on.

Testosterone can intensify RG, just as being intact makes Fs in the same household more likely to fight,
as intact-bitches are not fighting cuz they're crowded, they're fighting cuz "there ain't room-enuf here 
for the two of us to raise young'uns". Desex reduces the intensity & allows them to share space. 
They may not love each other, but they can get along.

[In the case of bitches who've fought in the past, they may never be good friends - & if the fights were 
serious, they may never relax around one another. Trust can only be broken so badly; if it's shattered, 
no amount of social-glue will fix it.]


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> i will put this as gently as possible: _Toffee._
> 
> A, dogs do Not have linear-hierarchy. Even wolves, on whom this twaddle was based, do not.
> Wolf-parents are 'dominant' cuz they're *parents*, feeding, caring for, & teaching their kids.
> ...


I don't know as much about this topic as I would like - but it seems that your comments are reasonable ones. "Resource guarding" would apply to the potential to breed as well, I would imagine, so getting rid of rivals could be a priority for male dogs.

I've often had similar thoughts about warring bitches (thought of this all by myself - pats self on back) - that they want to be the one who breeds (even when they're spayed). As I understand it, in wolf/hyena/dhole packs, only one female breeds - they want to be that one female!

And you are right that bitches when they fall out, can carry a grudge against each other (for want of a better term) and fights can break out spontaneously, without any apparent provocation, and be as vicious as hell.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

While I hope neutering does solve your problem I have to agree with Moobli. It's not stopped the behaviour in any of the dogs I know who've been neutered for it (it seems quite a common knee jerk reaction to neuter at the first sign of any aggression) and the only solution has been to watch them like a hawk and let them know the behaviour will not be tolerated. And even then they'll still try it if they think they can get away with it. 

I think being very careful about triggers is going to be your best bet. The incident with your old dog sounds a hell of a lot like resource guarding so being careful about toys, chews, attention, food etc and also of space and doorways would be the route I'd go down. The fact your old boy is not in great condition makes him a very easy target unfortunately  I would separate the two if leaving them. It may also be worth getting the old boy a thorough check up to make sure the younger hasn't picked up on some "weakness" you don't know about.

I'm really sorry you're going through this and hope you do manage to resolve it. Just please do not expect neutering to be a miracle cure because there's a good chance it won't be.


----------



## Guest (Jun 19, 2013)

Nothing but anecdotal evidence to offer here...

I don't think neutering by itself helps much with aggression, nor do I think it hurts.

IME most juveniles are a PITA period. I've yet to raise a pup - neutered or intact - who didn't loose all sense of self-preservation peaking at about 20 months. Then all of a sudden around 3 their brain starts kicking in again. 

Our Bates who was neutered at 4 months (not by us), went through what I consider a very typical progression. Got him at 8 months, he was great with other dogs, then the winter he was a year and a half he started pushing it with every single dog - worse with males, and male intact dogs reacted very negatively to him (his body language didn't help things either). 
During this time we just worked and worked on focus and impulse control, tight obedience and very strict management. They say practice makes perfect, so I just made sure he didn't have any opportunities to practice fighting behavior.

At around 3 years, he suddenly started having more and more moments of NOT being an ass. Slowly but surely this turned in to a dog who was able to even ignore posturing from other dogs. 

Now he has just turned 5, and while he's still obnoxious, he does pay attention to the other dog's cues and he has the impulse control to not escalate things. 
He will never be a dog I can turn loose in a group of dogs and expect him not to cause problems, but he is perfectly capable of getting along with one or two dogs properly introduced. And I know him well enough to know what sort of dog is going to work and what isn't, so I simply don't give him opportunities to interact with dogs that I know he's not going to get along with.

I think it's scary and overwhelming when you see your formerly "nice" dog suddenly turn into *that* dog that everybody avoids. But I also think it's far more normal than not, and like so many things, this too shall pass...


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Again, thanks, I really do appreciate people taking the time to reply.

Lostbear: 99% of wild wolf packs consist of a mum a dad and the pups. Clearly, the breeding pair are mum and dad. NEVER one of the pups (which, in evolutionary terms would be disasterous). Most of the pups disperse to find a mate and breed (thus forming their own "packs"). Unfortunatly, people who studied wolves originally did so with captive packs, which are not family groups are wholey unnatural and unstable.

Comparing domestic dogs to wild canids is fraught with problems!! 

Sarah: I'm not expecting miracles from the neutering. But I am using it as an adjuct to training. I already see a difference in his behaviour (this particular incident notwithstanding). He has stopped humping me totally (maybe his terstosterone levels are coming down naturally) and is more responsive to commands. He also let me comb his ears this morning without wiggling (well, with much less wiggling!! I was able to give them a jolly good brush and he enjoyed it!)

So--neutering AS WELL AS more training is the route I am taking.

Off for his daily "village walk" now. This is the first time since this behaviour started I have done it at lunchtime when there are more dogs about - wish me luck!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Sarah: I'm not expecting miracles from the neutering. But I am using it as an adjuct to training. I already see a difference in his behaviour (this particular incident notwithstanding). He has stopped humping me totally (maybe his terstosterone levels are coming down naturally) and is more responsive to commands. He also let me comb his ears this morning without wiggling (well, with much less wiggling!! I was able to give them a jolly good brush and he enjoyed it!)
> 
> So--neutering AS WELL AS more training is the route I am taking.
> 
> Off for his daily "village walk" now. This is the first time since this behaviour started I have done it at lunchtime when there are more dogs about - wish me luck!


Ah that's good. A lot of people do neuter believing that's all it will take to solve the problem.

Try not to be nervous walking him or you're likely to cause reactions. Easier said than done I know. Me and Rupert used to feed off each other terribly! He'd be anxious which would make me anxious which would make him more anxious which would make me more anxious :mad2:


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

A bit of a dissapointment as we only met one dog. He behaved very well and waited nicely at gates to be let through and at pavements to cross (this is all onlead). 

when we passed the WHWs behind the gates, they did not bark (that's a first!) but I could see their bums sticking out under the fence. He was a bit stiff as we passed, but nothing extreme at all.

Just after this we met a man with another WHW (they are popular!) who we passed about 4 metres appart. He was a bit stiff and was looking at him (though not staring) and I managed to get him to follow me on a little tight circe and come away without the lead tightening. I think this might be progress, but I'm not sure.

Unfortunatly, I live in a rural area where most dogs are not walked in the village, but off lead round about and he's 80% OK off lead. It's the on lead practice I need more.

I did pass the local dog walker's van in the village, so maybe I could find out when she walks and try to coincide with that. Then again, I'm sure she would not thank me if my dog upset all her clients' dogs she is trying to walk!!!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> ...I live in a rural area... most dogs are not walked in the village, but off lead round about [the houses],
> & he's 80%-OK, off lead. It's the on lead practice I need more.
> 
> I did pass the local dog walker's van in the village, so *maybe I could find out when she walks & try
> ...


Ask her ahead of time - 
explain that U'd like to do a set-up with Ur on-lead dog sufficiently far-off that HE won't react, 
which should [theoretically] be enuf distance that none of her on-leash dogs will pop-off, either.
U should be able to phone her, or if not, use the website if there is one, to send a query.

i'd bet she'd be happy to help figure a good spot: U need a nice long distance with a wide field of view, 
& at least 2 or 3 side-streets or other 'escape routes' to turn onto, back up along, or U-turn on, 
just in case anyone unexpected arrives --- perhaps an off-leash dog, or if Ur dog [or any of hers] 
get over-excited & start to bark.

is there a 'main street'? That might give the long-distance view, & any side-streets, driveways, etc, 
could be bail-out places...  Maybe?


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I have dropped her an email which I got from her website. (the dog walker)

I had a look at the DogStarDaily links you gave LfL, and found them very reassuring! I did in the past downlead the "Before your Puppy" and saved it on my Kindle, so I will do the same with "After you get your Puppy" as it has the relevant chapters on adolescence.

I took him to the vet this evening for his Tardek. He behaved impeccably in the waiting room (one-guess what?-WHW). He was relaxed and calm the whole time-even lying with his head down. He didn't get his Tardek-too soon after he had it before (I thought he had it a couple of months ago-seems not!) but the vet agrees that balls off is the way to go. He shall be done on my return from holiday.

Afterwards I took him for a lead walk and he was generally ok. He did become very stiff when he saw a couple of onlead collies in front of us, walking in the same direction as us. I just got him to sit and wait untill they moved ahead far enough for him to relax.

I have noticed something he's doing that I am perplexed by. He has started making a strange noise with his mouth=like he's opening and closing it quickly making a hollow popping sound. He seems to do it when he is excited. Maybe it's just an idiosyncracy.

again, thanks for the feedback everyone.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

OK. We have had our session.
we met in the local beach park. Apparently my version of loose lead walking is not! She showed me how to get him to walk on a much looser lead and identified some faults on my part which was unaware of (as always!).

She explained what lunging is about and identified hat he is not frightened, but is slighly stressed (licking, yawning, snffing-none of them to any great extent, but there nonetheless). She showed me what to do and how to progress the excersises.

She also gave me some tips regarding his behaviour at home with respect to Tip. All made sense and seems easy to do.

She says he lacks some self control around other dogs and is confident, pushy and 11 months!
She then showed me how to keep him relaxed around other dogs

We have lots to work on and will start in her classes next month.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

:thumbup: Contacting the dog-walker, 
the vet's waiting-rm & his composure, & the walk after all sound good.


Old Shep said:


> I've noticed something he's doing that I'm perplexed by.
> He has started making a strange noise with his mouth = like he [opens & closes] it quickly,
> making a hollow popping sound. He seems to do it when he's excited. Maybe it's just an idiosyncrasy.


That doesn't sound peculiar to him - it sounds as if he's Jaw-clapping or Jaw-popping, 
which is a behavior that both bears & dogs do, altho it may not be for the same reasons in both species.

Bears will jaw-clap or pop when they're angry, frightened, or threatening another bear - or human, 
say when a M gets too close to a F with cubs, or a human surprises a bear who's berry-picking in brush.

Dogs tend to jaw-clap in excitement or arousal, often Ms do this when they catch estrous scent from 
a female [near or far], but some dogs ALSO jaw-clap when they're trying to intimidate someone - 
or they're aggravated by rough play, rude intrusive behavior, & so on, & it's a bit like swearing.

If he *jaw-claps* when he sees / hears / smells other dogs, watch for other signals that are 
involuntary: PUPILS enlarging, HACKLES lifting [which can be subtle on dark-coated dogs with coats... 
a tail-bristle might be easier to see than shoulder or neck hackles], WHISKER-PADS pucker, 
WHISKERS flex forward [predicting a potential bite], & so on.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

which includes jaw-claps:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...other-worrisome-dog-signals-we-need-them.html


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

thanks, LforL.

I have noticed he did it today when he was sniffing intently under a bench. There were no other dogs around at all, but he was VERY interested in whatever he was smelling! He doesn't do it very much, but I'll pay more attention when he does.

Today was a good day!
Lead walking is progressing (she wants the lead to be totally slack, with a big "u" in it! No tension whatsoever).

I walked with a friend and her dogs (who he loves). At one point, when off lead we bumped into an old gentleman with a grumpy scottie (he used his walking stick to guide it into the side when we approached. Not in a nasty way. the dog seemed to be aware what he was asking him to do). Duke was absolutly fine and didn't approach it. We met a collie too and he was fine. We also me a woman with a very reactive terrier and Duke sat quietly, looking at me, as it passed (on lead at this point). I clicked and treated him whenever he looked at the dog in a relaxed manner-as I have been shown. 

Interestingly, the trainer said he is very very good at following your gaze. She showed me how he does this and it was amazing! I never noticed it before, but it's proving very useful as I can get him organised (quietly and safely in a sit), look at the dog and he'll follow my gaze and get a treat for it! It's a game!

I am aslo now feeding both dogs together (with supervision, obviously). I am a little nervous but Duke seems much more calm-he's not gulping his food and looking up at Tip.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I thought I'd just give an update, if anyone is interested in our progress.

It's now late August and we have been working on this since May. He is also now well neutered.

I can now walk him on a loose lead past the majority (not all) of dogs without having to put him in a sit, and he will have a minimal reaction (a little body stiffness and sometimes a quiet puff of his cheeks). In fact he is now often betteer thaqn my friends dog whom we sometimes walk with-and he competes at obedience!

We have had a number of surprising encounters: when he was on lead we were approached by a loose 100MPH rushing staffy and I almost passed out with fear. But I managed to remember to keep the lead loose and just held my breath while they said hello. To my amazement, he wanted to play with the dog and they jumped around=leaping and play bowing-untill the owner(a jogger) caught up, and the staffy joined her.

earier this week we were on the beach-off lead- when 2 men appeard from the dunes with a mastiff and a lab, both of them running up to hm full charge. I have been reading "Feisty Fido" by (I think) Keren Overall, and as my trainer said she thinks my presence makes him react more strongly, I turned on my heel and strode off n the opposite direction. My heart was pounding and I was straining to liten in case a fight broke out. When I was a few hundred yard away, I turned to see what was happening and was surprised to see him standing still-a little stiff, but I've seen him much worse-while the other two sniffed at him. He then took his turn and snffed them. I then turned and walked accross his line of vision-not actually towards him- he saw me and came runnimng up to join me. Even though the mastiff followed him, he just ignored it as he came to me.


HOWEVER. He remains unpredictable when out walking and he continues to be reactive in class to particular dogs (usually the ones who stare at him). We have had a few incidents when he is off lead and I choose where I go very carefully to try to avoid too many dogs. Although I have been able to call him away when we have spotted a dog/s who I think may be trouble. In fact, we haven't had any incidents at the beach at all (except one and the vcircumstances were different. It was with a dog he knows and hates). He also hates with a passion, one of the other dogs at agility which is proving problematc as the other dog is quite reactive too, but the owner does nothing to address it and he stares at Duke all the time.

So, all in we are making slow, but steady progress. My trainer thinks we should consider obedience as she feels it will hep his calmness, so I am gong to a competition next week with him. I'm a bit nervous as I know he will be reactive, but as it;s outdoors we can move away. I also think I may but a "yellow dog" bandana or coat.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sounds as tho things have improved - wonderful! :thumbup:

About the visual stuff, especially stare-downs or fixed attention:


Old Shep said:


> HOWEVER. He remains unpredictable when out walking and he continues to be reactive in class to particular dogs
> (*usually the ones who stare at him*). We've had a few incidents when he's off lead, & I choose where I go
> very carefully, to try to avoid too many dogs.
> 
> ...


i'd try a Calming Cap, to reduce his visual reactivity. Be sure to habituate it during ordinary activities, 
starting at home, indoors, when the house is peaceful - say, the last half-hour before bed - 
& teach him to PUT HIS OWN FACE into the eye-mask.

Once he can easily do that, he can wear it for very short periods - his meals are a good simple intro, 
as that's about smells & eating, not visual cues. Increase the length of time to at least 5-mins before his first 
outdoor trip wearing it, which should be just a quick potty-trip, preferably leashed. Then begin using it 
for brief walks, & finally he can wear it for the duration of his walks.

All it does is make anything beyond his immediate surroundings "fuzzy" - he won't bang into furniture, 
nor fall down stairs, etc. But it does often help reduce dog's reactivity, as they can't GET CHARGED 
by staring at an approaching dog for 100-ft, becoming more & more flooded by adrenaline, cortisol, etc, 
until they finally erupt in barking, lunging, etc.
.
.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

thank you. I will certainly look into this.


----------

