# Bad month to be a Butcher ( Warning )



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

3 studies out this month showing the health risks of consuming red meat (not just processed meat but plain old red meat).

Short (4 minute) video explaining them by Dr Joel Kahn cardiologist






I'm more than happy to continue the discussion about the ethics of consuming animal products which we had started on the other now closed thread too if desired.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

FWIW (following on from the closed thread) I went dairy and egg free after reading some of your posts on the subjects, many months ago 

Unless people hear the nasty truths about the livestock farming industry, they can’t make informed decisions.

I could no longer ignore that which I already knew and was horrified at some new details that I truly was unaware of 

I confess to skimming over the content (as I can find it harrowing ) but caught enough details to turn me.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> FWIW (following on from the closed thread) I went dairy and egg free after reading some of your posts on the subjects, many months ago
> 
> Unless people hear the nasty truths about the livestock farming industry, they can't make informed decisions.
> 
> ...


Thank you, that has made my day  (not the harrowing bit obviously).


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Same. I stopped dairy a while back because of rph’s threads. That’s why I’d rather see it behind spoilers or with warnings, than gone altogether and the threads locked. 

Some people might be upset, but these threads save lives.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

I have definitely decreased my meat intake since reading through the threads, we now see it as a major treat, this means we can get it from a local farm shop where I know where the animals came from.

Overall I do find that my weight drops quicker when eating less meat, but I am unsure as to whether it's because starchier products seem to go better with it. Either way I feel better for drastically decreasing my meat intake, which was every day to 2-3 days a week.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> Same. I stopped dairy a while back because of rph's threads. That's why I'd rather see it behind spoilers or with warnings, than gone altogether and the threads locked.
> 
> Some people might be upset, but these threads save lives.


Thank you too. I thought I was pretty well informed on farming methods until I had my eyes opened by someone talking about that machine that does unthinkable things to male baby chicks. Then I started looking into other things like pigs in gas chambers and what happens to male calves and now I can't stop spreading the word in the hope that other people who haven't heard about these atrocities either will feel inspired to do something too, not to mention the health benefits . Its so so easy not to buy the products these days, just habits/taste buds/lack of motivation/fear of the unknown holding most people back. I really hadn't taken on board that when I purchased eggs I was basically paying someone else to chop up live chicks in my name. Cognitive dissonance  but shows we all need a little shove to face up to the reality of what our money pays for.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

AlexPed2393 said:


> I have definitely decreased my meat intake since reading through the threads, we now see it as a major treat, this means we can get it from a local farm shop where I know where the animals came from.
> 
> Overall I do find that my weight drops quicker when eating less meat, but I am unsure as to whether it's because starchier products seem to go better with it. Either way I feel better for drastically decreasing my meat intake, which was every day to 2-3 days a week.


Good to hear, every little helps. Now can I persuade you to cut back on eggs and dairy too


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I think there is definitely more information out there now and more alternatives giving up milk for me has been very easy. I have forced myself to read some of the more graphic information because I think it's easy to forget when tempted with food out and about.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> I think there is definitely more information out there now and more alternatives giving up milk for me has been very easy. I have forced myself to read some of the more graphic information because I think it's easy to forget when tempted with food out and about.


I agree, my OH often asks me why I'm upsetting myself reading stuff or watching stuff that is just awful, I admit I do turn a lot of it off or wind through it because it is just too barbaric for words but If I do that I make sure I find out about the issue being discussed afterwards. Keeping up to date with the undercover footage or issues being discussed by activists keeps me motivated and determined to help spread the word. In much the same way that I keep on reading/watching/listening to all the wholefood plant based doctors and experts information so that I stay motivated from a health perspective too.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm sorry but I love my meat, I try to eat healthy and have cut down a little but no way would I give it up completely.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

*Demand for meat and dairy is down, expect a response*

*Dr. Garth Davis*


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm mostly vegan. I never buy meat but buy things with dairy products in them sometimes. So I can't say I a true vegan but getting there.
I do buy meat for my dog though. Free range organic if I can, she is only small so I don't have to worry too much about the cost, but I am wondering if anybody feeds their dog a vegan diet? Mine loves veggies but her diet is mostly meat based. Just wondering if anyone had any experience of feeding a dog a non meat diet.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Vicbloss said:


> I'm mostly vegan. I never buy meat but buy things with dairy products in them sometimes. So I can't say I a true vegan but getting there.
> I do buy meat for my dog though. Free range organic if I can, she is only small so I don't have to worry too much about the cost, but I am wondering if anybody feeds their dog a vegan diet? Mine loves veggies but her diet is mostly meat based. Just wondering if anyone had any experience of feeding a dog a non meat diet.


Hello and welcome. You might like our Plant Based Thread which is a sticky at the top of the General section

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...getarian-or-just-after-some-new-ideas.450190/

As far as feeding dogs goes I'm sure you know it is a really contentious issue and one I really struggle with. You are damned if you feed them meat (by other vegans and non vegans alike who will use it to call you a hypocrite) and damned if you do by other dog owners who think it is cruel/selfish and vets who think it is dangerous. My advice would be do lots of research, discuss it with your vet and perhaps even see whether your dog likes/does well on one of the vegan complete dried foods. One of our members @catz4m8z feeds her dogs a homemade vegan diet as far as I know.

I have 3 large dogs, all getting on in years and all with some health issues/medications so I've thought long and hard about it. My vet was horrified and said absolutely not - I'd already bought two different types of vegan complete kibble to try them with which they would not eat. In the end I decided I wasn't comfortable forcing my ethics on my dogs. I wasn't vegan when I took them on and made a commitment to look after them for the rest of their lives so I've looked at what I feed them and now go mainly for "by products" of the meat industry so things like tripe and their treats/chews are fish skin. When these three pass I don't think I will have another dog as this really does make me feel uncomfortable. However I also have an elderly mother, 81 at the moment with a host of health issues including diabetes/high blood pressure/only one kidney due to previous cancer and lots of other issues. There is a strong probability that she will come to live with us at some time in the future and she is not vegan, she doesn't do well with beans, spicy food or lots of vegetables (apparently) so I will have the same issue when catering for her. At the moment when she visits she eats the same food as us and enjoys it but if she actually lived here I'm not sure it would be right for me to force her to be vegan so no doubt I will do the same for her as I do for my dogs - not the tripe and fish skins of course :Hilarious:Hilarious and just change out the things she can cope with and still give her fish although I will resist chicken if I can.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nu...death-those-cancer-diabetes-and-heart-disease

Higher intakes of animal protein increased risk of death in those with cancer, diabetes, and heart disease, according to a study published online in the _American Journal of Clinical Nutrition_. Researchers followed the diets of 2,641 participants from the Kuopio Ischaemic Heart Disease Risk Factor Study and compared protein intake with death from chronic disease. Those who consumed more meat and protein from animal-based sources in place of plant-based sources increased their risk of death from chronic disease by 23 percent. Possible mechanisms for the increased risk include decreased kidney function and increased production of cancer-related hormones associated with higher animal-based protein intake.

https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nu...-meat-plant-protein-lowers-risk-heart-disease

Replacing red meat with plant-based protein sources lowers your risk for heart disease, according to a meta-analysis published in _Circulation_. Researchers reviewed studies that compared diets that included red meat with eating habits that replaced red meat with foods such as legumes and tracked cardiovascular disease risk factors. Plant-based protein sources in place of red meat produced improvements in blood lipids. Replacing red meat with fish did not reduce the risk for heart disease. The authors noted that reduced intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and increased intakes of fiber and antioxidants found in plants may be possible mechanisms for the improvements.

And not to let eggs off the hook

https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/eggs-raise-risk-heart-disease-and-death

Dietary cholesterol-and eggs specifically-raise the risk for heart disease and death, according to a new study published in _JAMA_. Researchers from Northwestern University analyzed data from almost 30,000 participants with an average follow-up time of 17.5 years. They found that each 300 mg dose of dietary cholesterol was associated with an increased risk for cardiovascular disease and mortality by 17 and 18 percent, respectively. When it came to eggs, each half egg caused a 6 and 8 percent increased risk, respectively. The authors urge the reviewers of the Dietary Guidelines for Americans to consider these findings in their next update.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I know that one of the longest lived dogs was a vegan collie who lived to 27. It sounds like his owner knew what she was doing though and he was fed healthy home made dinners. 

I personally have no problem with feeding my dog raw meat. I’ve been vegetarian for half a century and relatively recently vegan, but my dog is more important than I am, so she gets what I think is best for her with my current knowledge and ability. My own vet has border collies, he feeds raw, so no problem with my particular vet practice.

I wasn’t going to reply as I have no experience feeding a dog a plant based vegan diet.


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## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Vicbloss said:


> I'm mostly vegan. I never buy meat but buy things with dairy products in them sometimes. So I can't say I a true vegan but getting there.
> I do buy meat for my dog though. Free range organic if I can, she is only small so I don't have to worry too much about the cost, but I am wondering if anybody feeds their dog a vegan diet? Mine loves veggies but her diet is mostly meat based. Just wondering if anyone had any experience of feeding a dog a non meat diet.


RPH has given great advice already, but I'll add a little bit of my thoughts too.

I think with dogs and vegan diets it's up to you and your dog. It really depends on how your dog likes the food and how healthy they are while eating it. Some dogs do great on vegan food, whether that be kibble, wet or homemade. Others do OK on it but not the best, and for some it really doesn't work out. My take on the argument that "it's unnatural" is - dogs aren't natural. They may be descendants of wolves, but Bichons, Pomeranians, Cockapoos and most dogs that are around today - they're not wolves. They're domestic animals that have been created by humans. Dogs find it easy to adapt and eat what humans provide them with, once they were fed scraps, now they're fed wet or dry food in varying levels of quality, some are fed Raw and others are fed homemade meals and some are fed vegan or vegetarian. Dogs don't know, (or care for that matter, as long as they like it!) what they're eating, so as long as it provides all the nutrition they need, and they're healthy and happy - I'm happy. And if other animals don't have to suffer and die for my dogs to eat - even better. Veggie Pets UK is a great site to look at, because you can see most of the vegan food brands, read through the nutrition information and compare it to meat based foods from zooplus, where you can read through the nutrition info on some of the foods on there. I think in the future, when lab meat becomes a widely accessible thing, I'd probably feed my dogs a Raw diet with lab meat (if it was good for them of course) - so no animals are harmed but my dogs still get to eat meat. I think that would probably be the best solution for cats and other carnivorous animals as well. I'm really curious to find out if that would be an option. But that's in the future and at the moment, we have to do what's best for our animals. (while also thinking of other animals and the planet when possible as well) Another thing to add is that a border collie called bramble lived to be 27 on a vegan diet 

My Experience with feeding a vegan diet to dogs: 
Mylo has been on two different Vegan diets in the past, one was Benevo Kibble from and the other was a homemade diet. He enjoyed both, and the kibble was actually what got him eating properly again after he became extremely fussy and difficult to feed, often not eating most of his food or just not having any interest - so that was good. He didn't have his recurring ear infections while on this food, and his allergies cleared up too. I had both of the dogs on the homemade diet for two months to see how they'd do on it. They were both happy and healthy eating it, and really enjoyed the meals as I'd often change them up slightly. Jess had a lovely shiny coat while eating it, Mylo's tear stains and feet weren't as bad as before and started to clear up quite a bit and they were both active. The reason we stopped both were simply because we could only get the Kibble from the UK and we're in Ireland, so it was a bit awkward at times to get it, especially if we ran out and couldn't just run to the shop. I'll admit it is a silly excuse, and I may consider using it again in the future. And with the homemade diet, it was hard to make every three days for the dogs and fairly expensive due to the variety of different fresh ingredients we were using. We just didn't have the time unfortunately. So both my dogs are on meat based foods at the moment, Jess is on Gain Puppy food and Mylo is on Burns. They are both happy and healthy and active on these brands at the moment, so I'm happy - but of course I would rather not pay for animals to be killed for my dog's food, it's what I have to do at the moment.

I'm fine with people feeding their dogs kibble, wet food, raw or vegan kibble, vegan wet food or homemade vegan diets. I think as long as the dog is happy and healthy and getting all the nutrition he/she needs, that's all that matters.

(Sorry, I'm awful at wording things and this probably turned out completely wrong but ah well)


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *Demand for meat and dairy is down, expect a response*
> 
> *Dr. Garth Davis*


I was just going to share this video  
I love Dr. Davis. He's right up the road from me now that he's moved to Asheville, I have to figure out a reason to go to his clinic LOL!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I was just going to share this video
> I love Dr. Davis. He's right up the road from me now that he's moved to Asheville, I have to figure out a reason to go to his clinic LOL!


:Hilarious:Hilarious I don't blame you, he always come across as such a nice caring man.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I would not feed my dogs a vegan diet. I do believe dogs are scavengers and can do well on a varied diet, but they do need meat IMO. Ideally meat sourced from small farms or hunted. I'm not there yet with my dogs - feeding them only meat that I'm comfortable with where it came from, but I'm getting better. Having fewer dogs does make it easier. 

Not for nothing, I'm not one to say I want to see everyone go vegan either. I would be ecstatic with simply getting rid of giant factory farms, big dairy, and returning to a more sustainable practice of raising animals to eat. Which will mean a huge reduction in the amount of meat and dairy we consume, and yes, many of us will chose to avoid it entirely.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious I don't blame you, he always come across as such a nice caring man.


Darned WFPB diet has me healthy and slim, I'd look funny showing up at his bariatric clinic!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I would not feed my dogs a vegan diet. I do believe dogs are scavengers and can do well on a varied diet, but they do need meat IMO. Ideally meat sourced from small farms or hunted. I'm not there yet with my dogs - feeding them only meat that I'm comfortable with where it came from, but I'm getting better. Having fewer dogs does make it easier.
> 
> Not for nothing, I'm not one to say I want to see everyone go vegan either. I would be ecstatic with simply getting rid of giant factory farms, big dairy, and returning to a more sustainable practice of raising animals to eat. Which will mean a huge reduction in the amount of meat and dairy we consume, and yes, many of us will chose to avoid it entirely.


I've just added this to my "must listen to" list.

https://www.pcrm.org/news/exam-room-podcast/what-if-whole-world-went-vegan

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to see a vegan world before I die because I do and I think it will happen - I believe Forbes has predicted the end of the dairy industry in the next 10 years as less and less financial institutions want to invest in it and are putting their money into plant based alternatives. However I'm also realistic and seriously hope we can start to make big inroads into the worse atrocities sooner. However unless we do something to reduce demand for cheap meat/animal products there will unfortunately remain a demand for those atrociously produced products which is very depressing.

https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/vegetarian-diets-best-environment-and-human-health

Vegetarian and vegan diets are best for the environment and human health, according to research published online in the _Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America_. Researchers assessed several regional models that incorporated environmental, economic and health impacts associated with a dietary change in the future. Diets compared included proportional reduction in animal products, reduced or meat-free diets, and diets based on current health standards. A shift to a plant-based diet projected reductions in global mortality and greenhouse gases caused by food production by 10 percent and 70 percent, respectively, compared with a control scenario set in 2050. A global dietary shift would save an estimated 79 million human lives and avoid 5.1 million deaths per year. Estimates for a completely vegan diet project closer to 129 million lives saved and 8.1 million deaths avoided. These projections also saw trillions of dollars saved in health care costs by 2050.

My biggest hope for the future is the youngsters, on the whole they seem very receptive to the environmental issues and committed to doing something about it for their future.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Quite a motivating tool to show how even a single plant based meal helps the environment - keep clicking the big arrow on the right and slide the bar for how many meals/years to see the impact

https://www.thegreenprintproject.com/


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I just don't see enough people giving up their meat - when you look worldwide, I just don't think it will happen 
However, I do think there is hope in the 'clean meat' movement. Meat that is grown from cells in breweries much like beer is made. Eventually this will be a less expensive way of producing meat, it won't be wasteful (you're only growing the meat, not the sinew, bone, digestive tract, etc., that we don't eat), it will be healthier (no antibiotics needed, no worry of contamination with intestinal bacteria), and best of all, no slaughter of a live animal needed. To where we might get to the point where your choice will be, do you want the burger from the animal than had to be slaughtered, or do you want the burger from cultured meat, and those deliberately choosing the slaughtered meat will start looking like monsters.

In this podcast they speak to the 'loss' of cows and chickens, will these farmed animals disappear and what does that mean for us - there is a good conversation there.
They also discuss how quickly things change and how easily we accept those changes. There are those of us who remember taking film out of a camera, waiting a week, and then picking the developed pictures up, no idea what came out and what didn't. Now that seems completely archaic technology. Once they bring the cost of clean meat down, I predict we will see that same rapid change in how we eat. In addition to these changes already happening 
They also talk about the 'ick' factor of cultured meat, how people have an immediate revulsion to something so 'unnatural' yet when you really stop and think about it, it's our current practices that are completely unnatural and gross.

https://www.richroll.com/podcast/paul-shapiro/

The book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1...89085&linkId=cd5c21aee412b81ead615ff4f62a8a53


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Hello and welcome. You might like our Plant Based Thread which is a sticky at the top of the General section
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...getarian-or-just-after-some-new-ideas.450190/
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link and starting this thread. It shows how attitudes have changed, I'm sure it would have been seen as really 'wacko' not that many years ago. I'm definitely going to work on that missing 10% to go totally vegan. Just seems the right thing to do.
Funnily enough, my mum doesn't get on well with beans or veggie food in general either. She follows a mostly Paleo diet. Anyhow, she is visiting for Easter so I'll have to get the meat in for her.

As for the dog, she is older too and she's doing really well on a mostly raw meat diet so I've no plans to change things. She's got arthritis too so I try to keep her carbs to a minimum. I would definitely think about it for any future dogs though especially after reading about the collie! I don't really mind feeding her meat, it's just we live in sheep farming country and there are lots of lambs about at the moment and I love watching them in the fields. But then I come back home and feed them to her! (Not them exactly but you know what I mean). And in a way I think the lambs who are slaughtered so young are the lucky ones because I see so many sheep with broken or badly damaged legs and I think they must be in so much pain. But I guess they are worth as much with a damaged leg as with a good one. And I don't blame the farmers but I do blame the supermarkets who have driven down prices so as to make meat so cheap that it is now an everyday food and the consumers who have demanded this. It's all just so very sad. But I guess things are changing, albeit slowly, so perhaps there is hope for the future.


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

Wild With Roxi said:


> RPH has given great advice already, but I'll add a little bit of my thoughts too.
> 
> I think with dogs and vegan diets it's up to you and your dog. It really depends on how your dog likes the food and how healthy they are while eating it. Some dogs do great on vegan food, whether that be kibble, wet or homemade. Others do OK on it but not the best, and for some it really doesn't work out. My take on the argument that "it's unnatural" is - dogs aren't natural. They may be descendants of wolves, but Bichons, Pomeranians, Cockapoos and most dogs that are around today - they're not wolves. They're domestic animals that have been created by humans. Dogs find it easy to adapt and eat what humans provide them with, once they were fed scraps, now they're fed wet or dry food in varying levels of quality, some are fed Raw and others are fed homemade meals and some are fed vegan or vegetarian. Dogs don't know, (or care for that matter, as long as they like it!) what they're eating, so as long as it provides all the nutrition they need, and they're healthy and happy - I'm happy. And if other animals don't have to suffer and die for my dogs to eat - even better. Veggie Pets UK is a great site to look at, because you can see most of the vegan food brands, read through the nutrition information and compare it to meat based foods from zooplus, where you can read through the nutrition info on some of the foods on there. I think in the future, when lab meat becomes a widely accessible thing, I'd probably feed my dogs a Raw diet with lab meat (if it was good for them of course) - so no animals are harmed but my dogs still get to eat meat. I think that would probably be the best solution for cats and other carnivorous animals as well. I'm really curious to find out if that would be an option. But that's in the future and at the moment, we have to do what's best for our animals. (while also thinking of other animals and the planet when possible as well) Another thing to add is that a border collie called bramble lived to be 27 on a vegan diet
> 
> ...


Thanks for telling about your experience. Sounds like it was really positive overall. Like I say, I'm not going to switch mine over now because she is settled and doing so well on it (that's my silly excuse!) but I think it's definitely an option for the future.


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## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Vicbloss said:


> Thanks for telling about your experience. Sounds like it was really positive overall. Like I say, I'm not going to switch mine over now because she is settled and doing so well on it (that's my silly excuse!) but I think it's definitely an option for the future.


No problem! If she's healthy and happy that's all that matters


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I just don't see enough people giving up their meat - when you look worldwide, I just don't think it will happen
> However, I do think there is hope in the 'clean meat' movement. Meat that is grown from cells in breweries much like beer is made. Eventually this will be a less expensive way of producing meat, it won't be wasteful (you're only growing the meat, not the sinew, bone, digestive tract, etc., that we don't eat), it will be healthier (no antibiotics needed, no worry of contamination with intestinal bacteria), and best of all, no slaughter of a live animal needed. To where we might get to the point where your choice will be, do you want the burger from the animal than had to be slaughtered, or do you want the burger from cultured meat, and those deliberately choosing the slaughtered meat will start looking like monsters.
> 
> In this podcast they speak to the 'loss' of cows and chickens, will these farmed animals disappear and what does that mean for us - there is a good conversation there.
> ...


I have to admit I am one of those with the 'ick' factor and won't be trying it but if it helps carnivores to give up eating the actual animals then it has to be a good thing.

This just dropped into my email box - I think it was you who mentioned about the false health information peddled by the dairy industry the other day

*Dairy Industry Creates 'Calcium Crisis' To Sell Cow's Milk*

https://nutritionstudies.org/dairy-...19&utm_medium=email&utm_term=newsletter+links


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

We use now much more of non dairy milk and yoghurts.

Very nice too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think it was you who mentioned about the false health information peddled by the dairy industry the other day


Yup...
I think it was Dr. Barnard in a podcast I was listening to who said that osteoporosis is a disease of atrophy. That made so much sense to me. 
Our bodies don't magically produce muscle just because you eat protein, nor will they magically produce bone just because you eat calcium. We need to USE our skeletal structure in order to keep it strong and healthy. All this talk of eat more calcium is great, but if you're sitting on your sofa scarfing Ben and Jerry's for the calcium, it ain't gonna work....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/impossible-whopper-wake-up-call-farmers

Senior meat industry lobbyist says livestock farmers are kidding themselves if they try to dismiss plant-based meat as a passing fad


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think that we are slowly chipping away at the meat and dairy industries though. Lots of people are now aware of the health implications and environmental damage and are trying to reduce their consumption. Plant based eating is def becoming more mainstream I think.

As for vegan doggo's my lot have been vegan for a couple of years now (50% kibble and 50% homemade food) and they seem to be doing really well on it. All 4 are fit and well and 3 have had blood tests since their diet change and they came back fine. I never planned to go totally vegan with them, just reduce their meat consumption as much as I could whilst still keeping them happy and healthy....just turned out that I could do that on no meat at all!).
I think its an individual judgement call though. Not everybody is able to feed their dog a vegan diet or wants to, and if you already have a dog when you become vegan then you shouldnt feel bad if you still feed them a 'normal' diet.
(Im still hoping for lab grown meat though so I can be a cat owner again!).


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Just came across this from The Plant Based Health Professionals UK

*Can cats and dogs go vegetarian?*

Professor Andrew Knight (Professor of Animal Welfare and Ethics, and Founding Director of the Centre for Animal Welfare, at the University of Winchester). Recorded at Brighton VegFest, March 24th 2019






I haven't watched it yet just the first few minutes but thought it might be of interest


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I haven't watched all of the video either, but I did watch enough to see that he left out the part where the lioness, since a cub, had a violent reaction to eating meat, she would throw it up. So she associated meat with feeling ill and wouldn't touch it. I'm guessing some sort of allergy or intolerance, probably due to being taken from her mother at birth as the mother lion killed all her offspring, so this one they grabbed right at birth before mama lion got to her - poor mama lion had to be a wreck, why they were still breeding her is beyond me 
So yeah, a lot more to that story. But like I said, haven't watched the whole thing. 

I don't think there is any doubt that dogs and yes, even cats with lots of supplementation, *can* live on a vegan diet (lion in question was vegetarian, not vegan). But should they? 
I'm all about the ethics of animal agriculture, but I'm also all about respecting an animal for who he/she is. A cat is a carnivore. Dogs are scavengers, but definitely are also hunters. 

There's something of human hubris in feeding dogs and cats a vegan diet that doesn't sit right with me. 
Humans are great apes. We're basically fruitivores/starchivores and have no biological need for meat. We can eat it - cooked, but it's not what we evolved to eat. 
Dogs are scavengers. They have evolved to be able to digest starches rather well and can make good use of them, but truly, they evolved to eat meat.
Cats are carnivores and without supplementation, will not do well on a meat-free diet. 

I feel like part of caring about animals means respecting who they are on the food chain if you will. Insisting an animal who has evolved to hunt and kill other animals eat a diet devoid of animal flesh seems wrong to me. 
I would love to feed Bates nothing but ethically sourced meat. And threads like this push me in that direction more and more. But I can't ever see myself not feeding him meat.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I have much the same view, although I hate the ethics of the meat industry and I hate buying meat products it was my choice to share my life with dogs so whilst I might dabble with seeing if they would take to a vegan diet I'm not prepared to force it on them and mine are quite clear they don't want it and won't eat it. However I can't get away from the animal welfare and the environmental downside of animal agriculture so my way of squaring the circle will be not to have anymore dogs unless they can develop the lab grown meat sufficiently although I have a feeling I will have hung up my dog walking boots by then. It is an interesting debate though and one I suspect we will be hearing more and more of in the future.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

If anyone fancies donating to help get a vegan documentary series off the ground and hopefully shown on Netflex have a look

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/planet-vegan?secret_perk_token=bbb9399a#/


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

This was posted on FB in jest, but it's actually a real thing.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

In all seriousness, a good friend of mine, her adult son got this. He was very sick until they figured out what it was. He's a very outdoorsy type and eventually they figured out it was a reaction to this lone star tick bite. 
So now he's highly allergic to all mammalian meat. Chicken and fish he can eat, but no mea t from any mammal.

It's kind of fascinating in a way....
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/alpha-gal-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20428608


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## Vicbloss (Jan 23, 2019)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I have much the same view, although I hate the ethics of the meat industry and I hate buying meat products it was my choice to share my life with dogs so whilst I might dabble with seeing if they would take to a vegan diet I'm not prepared to force it on them and mine are quite clear they don't want it and won't eat it. However I can't get away from the animal welfare and the environmental downside of animal agriculture so my way of squaring the circle will be not to have anymore dogs unless they can develop the lab grown meat sufficiently although I have a feeling I will have hung up my dog walking boots by then. It is an interesting debate though and one I suspect we will be hearing more and more of in the future.


Another way to square the circle is to get a shelter dog. They'd be eating meat that somebody has given them so may as well be you. And you'd be able to give them more ethically sourced meat than they might otherwise eat. Although I understand how you feel, it seems a shame not to give another dog or dogs a home if the feeding issue is the only reason you think you might hang up your dog walking boots.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Vicbloss said:


> Another way to square the circle is to get a shelter dog. They'd be eating meat that somebody has given them so may as well be you. And you'd be able to give them more ethically sourced meat than they might otherwise eat. Although I understand how you feel, it seems a shame not to give another dog or dogs a home if the feeding issue is the only reason you think you might hang up your dog walking boots.


I've got 3 shelter dogs at the moment  I do know what you mean but I have this constant nagging in my brain that I am valuing my dog's lives above those of other sentient creatures who don't want to die however ethically (I even struggle with that as what exactly is ethical about breeding an animal just to kill it to eat it?) they have been produced and I've yet to see or read any description of a humane slaughter. Of course I might feel differently when the time comes but I doubt it somehow and the environmental impact of animal products is shocking whether its to feed us or to feed dogs.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I haven't watched it yet just the first few minutes but thought it might be of interest


Really interesting! The list of things that go into commercial meat based dog food kinda grossed me out, although I suppose its obvious that pet food is going to be made up of alot rubbish given what it looks like.
Ironic too that the reasons cats cant have a plant based diet is because of certain nutrients that are destroyed in normal commercial cat food production and added artificially afterwards!
Also loved his point about natural 'hunting' behaviour and how a cat left on the beach isnt going to swim 50miles into the ocean and wrestle a giant tuna!:Hilarious (also sure that dropping my dogs into a forest filled with prey animals would result in them trying to live on leaves and bugs rather then deer or rabbits!).

Also I never thought about the fact a meat diet could be bad for pets (mainly due to our horrendous farming practices it seems). Def food for thought!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've got 3 shelter dogs at the moment  I do know what you mean but I have this constant nagging in my brain that I am valuing my dog's lives above those of other sentient creatures who don't want to die however ethically (I even struggle with that as what exactly is ethical about breeding an animal just to kill it to eat it?) they have been produced and I've yet to see or read any description of a humane slaughter. Of course I might feel differently when the time comes but I doubt it somehow and the environmental impact of animal products is shocking whether its to feed us or to feed dogs.


But we all do to a degree I suppose, I personally don't see that as 'wrong' as such but just something to be aware of & look at how we can justify certain things etc ….. I suppose a way would be to rear our own animals for food but then am not sure many of us could do that realistically. And I again I question why? surely if we were to feed our pets other animals then if we reared/killed them ourselves then we could do this as 'humanely' as possible. At least give them nice lives then kill them quickly & with no transportation to slaughter houses, etc. But, despite this am not sure I could do it. I have chickens (ex batts) & have killed several of them when they have become ill (beyond saving) & it is not a nice experience, the first one still haunts me & that was doing it to relieve them of suffering, not sure I could actually do it to a healthy bird.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I don't know if I can ever stop eating meat although if I had to kill it myself I wouldn't eat it at all, I guess that makes me a hypocrite .
There are quite a few vegetables that I can't eat because of IBS, others I can't eat because of Thyroid problems, that puts soy out the window. If I could manage on mushrooms I could maybe ditch the meat.
I do have a vegan friend on my Facebook and of all the pictures she has put up the one that upset me the most was a picture of calves with a spiny nose guard .
I didn't realise there was a snobbery within vegans until recently, then I discovered that the ones that are vegan for cruelty reasons look down on others that do it for health reasons.
For what it is worth I believe that the world population cannot survive on plants alone, it would only take one year of total crop failures to put humans out of existence, not that would necessarily be a bad thing, also how much more rain forest etc would need to be destroyed to grow all these extra crops? I think we need to find a balance somewhere.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sorry but I can never agree with feeding omnivore animals a vegan diet due to my own beliefs...if my beliefs were that strong then I would not keep pets that eat meat as part of their diet...no matter how much anecdotal evidence people put forward, it just does not sit right with me (and I say that as someone who eats WFPB) and probably never will because choosing to feed a vegan food to dogs does not benefit the dogs, it just makes humans feel better IMHO

I'm all for encouraging humans to cut back on meat. and it would be awesome if meat could be produced without an animal suffering (because expecting everyone to give up meat is a bit far fetched...meat eaters are very protective of their right to eat meat) but I hate this trend of passing our beliefs onto an animal that can't make that choice...

Back to the OP...I can't see this making much difference tbh..There are always warnings that this is bad, that is bad and the other is bad but people will still eat what they enjoy..which is sad really but there ya go


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> Really interesting! The list of things that go into commercial meat based dog food kinda grossed me out, although I suppose its obvious that pet food is going to be made up of alot rubbish given what it looks like.
> Ironic too that the reasons cats cant have a plant based diet is because of certain nutrients that are destroyed in normal commercial cat food production and added artificially afterwards!
> Also loved his point about natural 'hunting' behaviour and how a cat left on the beach isnt going to swim 50miles into the ocean and wrestle a giant tuna!:Hilarious (also sure that dropping my dogs into a forest filled with prey animals would result in them trying to live on leaves and bugs rather then deer or rabbits!).
> 
> Also I never thought about the fact a meat diet could be bad for pets (mainly due to our horrendous farming practices it seems). Def food for thought!


I'm glad it was interesting, you have inspired me to make the time to watch the whole thing. Unfortunately drop my dogs in a forest filled with prey animals and they would have a bonanza catching and killing - well the two pointers would, Indie would chase but I have no idea if she would dispatch. It must be nice to live in their world where there are no moral dilemmas 



Cleo38 said:


> But we all do to a degree I suppose, I personally don't see that as 'wrong' as such but just something to be aware of & look at how we can justify certain things etc ….. I suppose a way would be to rear our own animals for food but then am not sure many of us could do that realistically. And I again I question why? surely if we were to feed our pets other animals then if we reared/killed them ourselves then we could do this as 'humanely' as possible. At least give them nice lives then kill them quickly & with no transportation to slaughter houses, etc. But, despite this am not sure I could do it. I have chickens (ex batts) & have killed several of them when they have become ill (beyond saving) & it is not a nice experience, the first one still haunts me & that was doing it to relieve them of suffering, not sure I could actually do it to a healthy bird.


I think its something you could ask 100 vegans about and get 100 different answers so we all just have to find our own right. I know for a fact I could not and would not kill one animal to feed another (which I am happy to admit currently makes me a hypocrite because I am paying someone else to do that for me ) and the only way I can see killing another animal humanely is by lethal injection as we do to our pets which would then make the animal not suitable for consumption anyway.



Firedog said:


> I don't know if I can ever stop eating meat although if I had to kill it myself I wouldn't eat it at all, I guess that makes me a hypocrite .
> There are quite a few vegetables that I can't eat because of IBS, others I can't eat because of Thyroid problems, that puts soy out the window. If I could manage on mushrooms I could maybe ditch the meat.
> I do have a vegan friend on my Facebook and of all the pictures she has put up the one that upset me the most was a picture of calves with a spiny nose guard .
> I didn't realise there was a snobbery within vegans until recently, then I discovered that the ones that are vegan for cruelty reasons look down on others that do it for health reasons.
> For what it is worth I believe that the world population cannot survive on plants alone, it would only take one year of total crop failures to put humans out of existence, not that would necessarily be a bad thing, also how much more rain forest etc would need to be destroyed to grow all these extra crops? I think we need to find a balance somewhere.


*WARNING THE POST BELOW CONTAINS GRAPHIC/DESCRIPTIVE LANGUAGE WHICH YOU MAY FIND UPSETTING*

I don't think its snobbery, its more that the term "Vegan" encompasses a whole lifestyle so avoiding all animal products in foods, clothing, entertainment etc etc as far as possible. People who don't eat animal products for health reasons are usually known as "Plant Based" because they are not necessarily against the idea of eating animal products but have accepted the overwhelming body of evidence that doing so is bad for your health. There are a third group who choose to avoid animal products because of the devastating environmental impact but they might for instance be fine with zoos or circuses or dog racing. Ethical vegans would say if you haven't made the connection with the innocent victim - for instance if you haven't watched a video of baby chicks falling into a grinder alive and looked at their faces and felt the betrayal in your heart then you are much more likely to go back to eating eggs. I can post a video of that if anyone wants to watch it and then see how happy they are to eat eggs for breakfast.

We destroy far more rainforest and use far more of the world's land to grow crops to feed animals than it would take to just feed crops/vegetables directly to humans. I think humans are far more likely to be wiped out by the diseases associated with eating animals not to mention the antibiotic resistance that comes from the constant drip drip of consuming animal products with antibiotic residues and the bacteria in those products that has become antibiotic resistant - its scary reading


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Firedog said:


> I didn't realise there was a snobbery within vegans until recently, then I discovered that the ones that are vegan for cruelty reasons look down on others that do it for health reasons.


I dont think its really snobbery though, mostly just disbelief TBH! (militant activists excepted). Once you really see the cruelty in what you are doing its hard to believe that nobody else is seeing it! Imagine if you know for a fact that the sky is blue and people around you are continually telling you 'nope, its red!'. After a while you do want to just scream at them 'how can you not see its blue?!!!'.:Shy



StormyThai said:


> Sorry but I can never agree with feeding omnivore animals a vegan diet due to my own beliefs...if my beliefs were that strong then I would not keep pets that eat meat as part of their diet...no matter how much anecdotal evidence people put forward


Thats the thing. its not just anecdotal evidence anymore. There are more and more studies coming out to suggest that its possible to feed pets a nutritionally complete vegan diet. All good news for the planet!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Sorry but I can never agree with feeding omnivore animals a vegan diet due to my own beliefs...if my beliefs were that strong then I would not keep pets that eat meat as part of their diet...no matter how much anecdotal evidence people put forward, it just does not sit right with me (and I say that as someone who eats WFPB) and probably never will because choosing to feed a vegan food to dogs does not benefit the dogs, it just makes humans feel better IMHO
> 
> I'm all for encouraging humans to cut back on meat. and it would be awesome if meat could be produced without an animal suffering (because expecting everyone to give up meat is a bit far fetched...meat eaters are very protective of their right to eat meat) but I hate this trend of passing our beliefs onto an animal that can't make that choice...
> 
> Back to the OP...I can't see this making much difference tbh..There are always warnings that this is bad, that is bad and the other is bad but people will still eat what they enjoy..which is sad really but there ya go


Smokers used to be very protective of their right to smoke, whenever and wherever they liked. I can well remember being stuck on a long haul flight next to a chain smoking, coughing lady for 8 hours and having watery eyes and stinking clothes/hair when I got off the plane. Back when I was nursing we used to wheel the patients to the day room to smoke which was the only room with a TV on the whole ward so all the other patients who wanted to watch TV had to put up with the pollution and our staff changing room/toilet was always full of smoke as the staff sneaked in there for a quick *** every half an hour  Twenty years ago they would not have believed smoking would be banned in pubs, restaurants, on public transport and in public buildings but it was and I hope/believe meat/dairy and eggs will be too.

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/palitana-worlds-first-vegetarian-city


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think its something you could ask 100 vegans about and get 100 different answers so we all just have to find our own right. I know for a fact I could not and would not kill one animal to feed another (which I am happy to admit currently makes me a hypocrite because I am paying someone else to do that for me ) and the only way I can see killing another animal humanely is by lethal injection as we do to our pets which would then make the animal not suitable for consumption anyway.


Agree that we all have different opinions of what is/isn't acceptable or palatable for us that's why I tend to do what I feel best rather than what other vegans tell me I should …. & there are plenty at times!  
.
With my chickens I would not have subjected them to a trip to the vets (separated from their flock) or being handled by someone they didn't know during their final moments …for me it was much 'kinder' to keep them in their familiar environment & do the deed myself. It was not easy at all & I was traumatised by it for days afterwards, but it has gotten me thinking lately about ethics & if I feel that strongly then why not keep some chickens for the dogs …. but I am also a hypocrite in that the thought of having to kill them fills me with horror & tbh the number I would need in order to have a regular source I haven't really got the room. But interesting to think about my ethics & question them


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Thats the thing. its not just anecdotal evidence anymore. There are more and more studies coming out to suggest that its possible to feed pets a nutritionally complete vegan diet. All good news for the planet!


None of which show the impact of such a diet over a lifetime...just because they can survive on a vegan diet does not make it right.
As I said, I am uncomfortable pushing my beliefs onto my pets..if my beliefs made it difficult to feed a pet a species appropriate diet then I wouldn't have said pet...It's not something that I am comfortable with, and probably never will be because it isn't the pets choice and it isn't for the pets benefit...it has never been a question of "can" we feed dogs vegan, it will always be a question of "should" we?

As for comparing this to smoking...well, people still smoke, they just don't do it in public places that have banned it so not really comparable IMO
It would be great if humans sorted their diets out, I just don't see it happening in my lifetime (or ever tbh)
I can see people cutting down, and I can see people giving up meat but not to the point that everyone is vegan...I just can't see it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Being possible isn’t good enough. It would have to be better for her. 

It is in part that while I’m flash frying liver, the one meat I do cook for her, Elles is drooling and following me about with the odd ‘yip’ she’s so excited about it. I know she wouldn’t get as excited about a plant based diet and if I gave her the choice between a nutritionally complete vegan dinner and a hunk of raw meat on a bone, she’d choose the latter without even blinking.

That means if I’m brutally honest with myself, her enjoyment makes me feel good. 

So I am feeding her in part because it’s good for her and she loves it, even something as disgusting as liver and in part because making her feel good and enjoy her food makes me feel good. To give that up, the vegan diet would have to better for her.

I had my old horse shot at his home. He knew nothing about it and died instantly, still eating the apple I gave him. It’s my last memory of him, overrides practically every other and I don’t talk about it, or him. I did it for him not me and I’ll be glad when I’m gone and don’t have to think about it. I hope I go before Aria, so I don’t have to do it again, but if she was suffering I would. The thought of deliberately breeding and keeping animals just to kill them when they’re fat enough for humans to eat, fills me disgust and horror.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> Being possible isn't good enough. It would have to be better for her.
> 
> It is in part that while I'm flash frying liver, the one meat I do cook for her, Elles is drooling and following me about with the odd 'yip' she's so excited about it. I know she wouldn't get as excited about a plant based diet and if I gave her the choice between a nutritionally complete vegan dinner and a hunk of raw meat on a bone, she'd choose the latter without even blinking.
> 
> ...


Liked for your honesty, I can relate to that as I dare say if I forced the issue and offered no other food my lot would eventually eat the vegan option but it does please me to feed them food they love and are excited for. But what if the evidence started to come in that a plant based diet was better for them? My Mum will argue with me until she is blue in the face that meat and dairy are a necessary part of the human diet, she isn't interested in what research or science says but I believe that is because she is so addicted to the taste and to her habits and to her fear of change. Perhaps pet owners will have to face the same if the evidence starts to swing the same way for dogs/cats as it currently is for humans.

I completely empathise with the horses, both of my oldies were PTS by the vet standing in their stable munching on carrots, it was no different to the vet coming to do their vaccinations, they weren't stressed and went from munching to on the floor, gone, in seconds with us there stroking them. That isn't the bit that haunts me, its the bit that comes afterwards 



StormyThai said:


> None of which show the impact of such a diet over a lifetime...just because they can survive on a vegan diet does not make it right.
> As I said, I am uncomfortable pushing my beliefs onto my pets..if my beliefs made it difficult to feed a pet a species appropriate diet then I wouldn't have said pet...It's not something that I am comfortable with, and probably never will be because it isn't the pets choice and it isn't for the pets benefit...it has never been a question of "can" we feed dogs vegan, it will always be a question of "should" we?
> 
> As for comparing this to smoking...well, people still smoke, they just don't do it in public places that have banned it so not really comparable IMO
> ...


At the moment they still do in private but again legislation is changing so that their ability to do is gradually being eroded - for instance

It is illegal to smoke in a car (or other vehicle) with anyone under 18. The law changed on 1 October 2015, to protect children and young people from the dangers of secondhand smoke.

Both the driver and the smoker could be fined £50. The law applies to every driver in England and Wales, including those aged 17 and those with a provisional driving licence.

The law applies:


to any private vehicle that is enclosed wholly or partly by a roof
when people have the windows or sunroof open, or the air conditioning on
when someone sits smoking in the open doorway of a vehicle
The law does not apply to:


e-cigarettes (vaping)
a driver who is 17 years old if they are on their own in the car
a convertible car with the roof completely down
I think smoking in the home where children live will be next. As for the everyone becoming vegan in the future, give it 50 years and it will happen because it will have to as more people learn the truth of what happens in their name when they buy the products and realise that those products really can't be produced or killed any other way and the environmental impact makes it impossible to carry on these outdated and hugely wasteful practices.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I can see people cutting down, and I can see people giving up meat but not to the point that everyone is vegan...I just can't see it.


Same. 
I mean, one of the earliest posts on this thread was "I don't care, I'm not giving up my meat." And that is not an uncommon response. 
I mean, if people dying of throat cancer and emphysema won't give up smoking (some will even continue to smoke through a trach tube), you can see the same happening for their bacon and eggs.

Which is why for me, I have a lot of hope for the future of clean meat. Environmentally it's a much less wasteful and damaging process, and of course no animal suffering to produce it.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> for instance if you haven't watched a video of baby chicks falling into a grinder alive and looked at their faces and felt the betrayal in your heart then you are much more likely to go back to eating eggs. I can post a video of that if anyone wants to watch it and then see how happy they are to eat eggs for breakfast.


I do wish you wouldn't sneak things like this in. One it's really upsetting to read. Which feels like was your intent - upset people enough in to changing their ways. I don't like that tactic, never have. It's aversive training if you will, and yup, with the same negative fall-out. 
I didn't need to be hit over the head with a two by four to "get it" thanks. I can be told that the industry is cruel and do my own research when I am in the right place mentally to see/hear/read about these things. Repeatedly 'hitting' me with upsetting stimuli isn't doing anything other than making me want to avoid these conversations. And I'm already invested. Those not invested at all will just run away I'm afraid 

Two, I don't eat eggs as you know. Mainly because I don't like them and I have a lot of negative associations with collecting eggs as a child. But I also have to ask. Do you know anyone who keeps backyard chickens? Chickens that are kept as family pets who also lay sometimes? I ask because every person I know who keeps their own chickens treats them very well, there are no baby chick grinders, and I personally have zero issues with people consuming eggs from pet chickens.

So to me, it's not that black and white - that those eating eggs are doing so because they can overlook the animal suffering that goes in to producing them. It is very possible to produce eggs without causing damage to the animals involved.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Same.
> I mean, one of the earliest posts on this thread was "I don't care, I'm not giving up my meat." And that is not an uncommon response.
> I mean, if people dying of throat cancer and emphysema won't give up smoking (some will even continue to smoke through a trach tube), you can see the same happening for their bacon and eggs.
> 
> ...


No it wasn't my intent to upset people enough to change their ways. My intent as always is to educate people so that they know what is involved in animal products. It is very easy to buy free range or organic eggs and tell yourself its OK they had a good life. I'm trying to get people to understand that the female egg laying hens are only one part of the industry and that no matter who you buy your eggs from the male chicks from the hatchery (30 - 40 million every year just in the UK) were killed in a disgusting way. I didn't know it even when I was involved in Animal Rights heavily in the 1980's so I'm pretty sure the average egg buyer today isn't aware either unless someone has told them or they have stumbled across footage. I'm sorry you don't like the tactic but read back at the beginning of the thread and you will find a couple of people telling me they did change after reading my threads even though they don't like what I'm saying and try to skim through much of it. I can only ask you if you were that chick about to drop would you want your advocates to beat around the bush or would you want them to hit people with a two by four? Yes you are already invested so you may well go away and do your own research when you feel ready to but the average non-invested person won't, they will keep on telling themselves eggs are fine and although they don't agree with battery cages and wouldn't want to watch how those hens are killed at the end of their egg laying life they will never even think about what happens to the male chicks. Even people who keep back yard chickens need to think about what happened to the males chicks to enable the female egg layers to have been kept alive at the hatchery, the only exceptions are those who have rescued ex farm chickens or if they bred their own chickens and let any males live. If they just went along to a hatchery or to a farmer and purchased egg laying females then they have contributed to the death of the males. So whilst it is "possible" to produce eggs without causing damage to the animals involved it is also extremely rare and those are not the eggs being purchased by the vast majority of the public.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm sorry you don't like the tactic but read back at the beginning of the thread and you will find a couple of people telling me they did change after reading my threads even though they don't like what I'm saying and try to skim through much of it.


This is the same argument with training techniques. "It works."



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can only ask you if you were that chick about to drop would you want your advocates to beat around the bush or would you want them to hit people with a two by four?


 I find this condescending. Again, you know I do my part and then some. So to throw this at me as if I don't care, don't do enough, as if you're the only one with the right answers. 
You don't know what influence I've had or how many people have come to me for information and made small and big changes because of our relationship.

And I see you haven't answered my question about knowing anyone who rears backyard chickens. I can tell you don't because most folks I know would not buy their chicks from hatcheries any more than most dog owners I know would buy a puppy from a pet store.

But I'll leave it because I know we don't see eye to eye on this, I've tried to explain to you how I feel and you don't want to know (ironic as it's the same reaction as meat eaters who don't want to stop eating meat). But really I don't want to derail the thread or fall out over this.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No it wasn't my intent to upset people enough to change their ways. My intent as always is to educate people so that they know what is involved in animal products. It is very easy to buy free range or organic eggs and tell yourself its OK they had a good life. I'm trying to get people to understand that the female egg laying hens are only one part of the industry and that no matter who you buy your eggs from the male chicks from the hatchery (30 - 40 million every year just in the UK) were killed in a disgusting way. I didn't know it even when I was involved in Animal Rights heavily in the 1980's so I'm pretty sure the average egg buyer today isn't aware either unless someone has told them or they have stumbled across footage. I'm sorry you don't like the tactic but read back at the beginning of the thread and you will find a couple of people telling me they did change after reading my threads even though they don't like what I'm saying and try to skim through much of it. * I can only ask you if you were that chick about to drop* would you want your advocates to beat around the bush or would you want them to hit people with a two by four? Yes you are already invested so you may well go away and do your own research when you feel ready to but the average non-invested person won't, they will keep on telling themselves eggs are fine and although they don't agree with battery cages and wouldn't want to watch how those hens are killed at the end of their egg laying life they will never even think about what happens to the male chicks. Even people who keep back yard chickens need to think about what happened to the males chicks to enable the female egg layers to have been kept alive at the hatchery, the only exceptions are those who have rescued ex farm chickens or if they bred their own chickens and let any males live. If they just went along to a hatchery or to a farmer and purchased egg laying females then they have contributed to the death of the males. So whilst it is "possible" to produce eggs without causing damage to the animals involved it is also extremely rare and those are not the eggs being purchased by the vast majority of the public.


They don't have a clue though. And honestly brutal as it sounds I would say that a chick in that situation would be incompatible with life extremely quickly. (Tried to put that as delicately as I could)


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't believe there will ever be a day when the sale/consumption of meat/dairy/eggs will be banned.

It's not at all realistic for one person to put another in a position where they will eat what they're told to eat whether they like it or not. That would be to deny people their basic right to make choices.

I would never oblige any dog of mine to live on a vegan diet.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

My problem as well is that even if I gave up meat I would still have to prepare it and cook it every day as my husband will never go meat free. On a plus side I have given up eggs as they make me feel ill after eating them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> This is the same argument with training techniques. "It works."
> 
> I find this condescending. Again, you know I do my part and then some. So to throw this at me as if I don't care, don't do enough, as if you're the only one with the right answers.
> You don't know what influence I've had or how many people have come to me for information and made small and big changes because of our relationship.
> ...


Oh gosh you really have taken what I'm saying the wrong way and I seriously hoped we knew each other well enough to know that I was not for one minute suggesting YOU don't care or do enough but you came at me pretty full on about how I phrased my reply to someone else and questioned my motives/tactics so I was simply pointing out why I sometimes word things how I do. I think we have had this discussion before and agreed in the end that different approaches work for different people, and all different kinds of activism are effective. That isn't saying one is better than the other, just that while some people prefer to come to conclusions in their own good time or to ask questions then go away and think, others put up a veil of denial and giving them the hard facts in descriptive language or with supporting footage is more effective for them. I don't want to fall out over it either 

Sorry I overlooked answering your question about back yard chickens, yes I do know people who keep them. One is a relative who last year took in a group of ex battery chickens and the other was a friend but no longer is who initially took in some ex battery chickens, decided she liked keeping chickens and liked having eggs on tap so then went and bought young chickens from a farmer which is why I said that.



anachronism said:


> They don't have a clue though. And honestly brutal as it sounds I would say that a chick in that situation would be incompatible with life extremely quickly. (Tried to put that as delicately as I could)


Yes it does sound brutal and really that doesn't justify doing it. Not sure they die so quickly when they are tied up in plastic bags and left to suffocate though which is one of the other chosen mass murder techniques.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Good to hear, every little helps. Now can I persuade you to cut back on eggs and dairy too


You can try but I get my eggs from a friend around the corner and I know they are much happier hens than those from the supermarket


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> I don't believe there will ever be a day when the sale/consumption of meat/dairy/eggs will be banned.
> 
> It's not at all realistic for one person to put another in a position where they will eat what they're told to eat whether they like it or not. That would be to deny people their basic right to make choices.
> 
> I would never oblige any dog of mine to live on a vegan diet.


I doubt there will come a day when it is banned as such but I do believe there will come a day when it is no longer acceptable and no longer economically viable.

Surely all laws deny people the right to make choices. Not that long ago rape within marriage was legal, I'm sure many husbands thought it was their right to choose whether to force their sexual attentions on their wives and were outraged when the law decided they couldn't.

https://www.lawtonslaw.co.uk/resources/what-are-the-legal-penalties-for-marital-rape/

Prior to 1992, forced sexual activity within a marriage wasn't illegal, as a husband could enforce conjugal rights on his wife without committing an offence based on the belief that a wife had provided their ongoing consent through the contract of marriage.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Firedog said:


> My problem as well is that even if I gave up meat I would still have to prepare it and cook it every day as my husband will never go meat free. On a plus side I have given up eggs as they make me feel ill after eating them.


No eggs is a good start 



AlexPed2393 said:


> You can try but I get my eggs from a friend around the corner and I know they are much happier hens than those from the supermarket


What about dairy - can I tempt you to cut down on that too?


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh gosh you really have taken what I'm saying the wrong way and I seriously hoped we knew each other well enough to know that I was not for one minute suggesting YOU don't care or do enough but you came at me pretty full on about how I phrased my reply to someone else and questioned my motives/tactics so I was simply pointing out why I sometimes word things how I do. I think we have had this discussion before and agreed in the end that different approaches work for different people, and all different kinds of activism are effective. That isn't saying one is better than the other, just that while some people prefer to come to conclusions in their own good time or to ask questions then go away and think, others put up a veil of denial and giving them the hard facts in descriptive language or with supporting footage is more effective for them. I don't want to fall out over it either
> 
> Sorry I overlooked answering your question about back yard chickens, yes I do know people who keep them. One is a relative who last year took in a group of ex battery chickens and the other was a friend but no longer is who initially took in some ex battery chickens, decided she liked keeping chickens and liked having eggs on tap so then went and bought young chickens from a farmer which is why I said that.
> 
> Yes it does sound brutal and really that doesn't justify doing it. Not sure they die so quickly when they are tied up in plastic bags and left to suffocate though which is one of the other chosen mass murder techniques.


It's brutal but incredibly quick. But it all depends on your point of view. Yours is that no animal products are acceptable to use. Mine is that nature is made in such a way that some animals need meat to live and some do best eating it although can survive without. And we will never sway each other on that but thats ok


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I doubt there will come a day when it is banned as such but I do believe there will come a day when it is no longer acceptable and no longer economically viable.
> 
> Surely all laws deny people the right to make choices. Not that long ago rape within marriage was legal, I'm sure many husbands thought it was their right to choose whether to force their sexual attentions on their wives and were outraged when the law decided they couldn't.
> 
> ...


It didn't actually matter if they were separated and living apart. He could stalk her, knock her out and force himself on her and not be prosecuted for rape.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No eggs is a good start
> 
> What about dairy - can I tempt you to cut down on that too?


Already use dairy free spread, we are experimenting with different milks for our coffee so that's a work in progress. When we are at home we will definitely endeavour to be as dairy free as possible with milk, spread, cheese (even ice cream!!) but when going out for a meal, sadly all gloves are off at that point as it is a big treat for us


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

AlexPed2393 said:


> we are experimenting with different milks for our coffee so that's a work in progress.


Easiest and tastiest alternative IMO is cashew milk. 
I have a high powered blender, but you can do this with a regular kitchen blender too, just soak the cashews for about an hour first. 
3/4 cups of raw (unroasted) cashews, 3 cups of water. Blend. Done. 
You can add dates for sweetness, I used to, but now I don't even bother, the cashews themselves are sweet to me and lovely in coffee. I've gotten to where it's the only thing in coffee that even tastes good to me anymore. I can usually get almond, soy or oatmilk if I get coffee out and about, but my kitchen made cashew milk is the best


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

AlexPed2393 said:


> Already use dairy free spread, we are experimenting with different milks for our coffee so that's a work in progress. When we are at home we will definitely endeavour to be as dairy free as possible with milk, spread, cheese (even ice cream!!) but when going out for a meal, sadly all gloves are off at that point as it is a big treat for us


Brilliant, it all helps.



Elles said:


> It didn't actually matter if they were separated and living apart. He could stalk her, knock her out and force himself on her and not be prosecuted for rape.


Shocking but it does show that things/attitudes/laws do change.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> None of which show the impact of such a diet over a lifetime...
> 
> it has never been a question of "can" we feed dogs vegan, it will always be a question of "should" we?


As to the first point there is the obvious case of the 27 yr old vegan collie who made it to the Guiness Book of Records. Also I know of several people with elderly dogs on vegan diets. I dont imagine there are many long term studies at present though because its still not a common thing.

As to the second point...if its a matter of 'should' then its purely a question of individual opinion. Some people might be upset to foist their views on their pets and feel its betraying their nature. Personally I feel if my dogs can be healthy and happy without me having to kill other animals to do it then why not!? I have no problem leashing them, neutering them, keeping them in at night, defleaing them, etc so clearly I dont care that much about them being able to exhibit normal behaviours.
Maybe its less of an issue for me coz my lot adapted so well to their diet. They love their food, enjoy sweet potato chews and dog biscuits and if I really want to blow their tiny minds I give them melon or peppers (not sure why those are doggy crack but apparently they are!LOL).



O2.0 said:


> I do wish you wouldn't sneak things like this in. One it's really upsetting to read. Which feels like was your intent - upset people enough in to changing their ways. I don't like that tactic, never have. It's aversive training if you will, and yup, with the same negative fall-out.
> .


idk....Im quite keen on the odd truth bomb being dropped. People are so good at cognitive dissonance and just looking the other way that I think it helps to remind them where their dinner comes from. If its all ok then we should be fine to hear about it, surely? And if its not ok then we should remember the victims who are suffering and dying everyday.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

anachronism said:


> It's brutal but incredibly quick. But it all depends on your point of view. Yours is that no animal products are acceptable to use. Mine is that nature is made in such a way that some animals need meat to live and some do best eating it although can survive without. And we will never sway each other on that but thats ok


But nature wouldn't be producing trillions of animals every year. We have artificially created the problem by breeding into existence millions of animals and treating them like disposable trash.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Surely all laws deny people the right to make choices. Not that long ago rape within marriage was legal, I'm sure many husbands thought it was their right to choose whether to force their sexual attentions on their wives and were outraged when the law decided they couldn't.


I hardly think someone choosing to eat poached egg on toast comes into the same category as rape.

On the other hand, I absolutely agree that no one person should ever legally be in a position to force another person, (even if she is his Wife), to do something against their will, and that applies to one person being able to inform another what they're allowed to eat.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> idk....Im quite keen on the odd truth bomb being dropped. People are so good at cognitive dissonance and just looking the other way that I think it helps to remind them where their dinner comes from. If its all ok then we should be fine to hear about it, surely? And if its not ok then we should remember the victims who are suffering and dying everyday.


Truth bombs have collateral damage too.... 
I'm still very upset by the image in my head, and I'm frustrated that I can't articulate well what I find counterproductive about that approach, and yup, I'm butthurt that my feelings don't seem to matter.

So time for me to take a break, feed my dog some raw chicken that he loves, take him for a walk, and take me for a run.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> I hardly think someone choosing to eat poached egg on toast comes into the same category as rape.
> 
> On the other hand, I absolutely agree that no one person should ever legally be in a position to force another person, (even if she is his Wife), to do something against their will, and that applies to one person being able to inform another what they're allowed to eat.


Guess that depends on whether you are looking at it purely from a human point of view or from the victim's point of view. An animal is still a victim and is entitled to compassion and consideration. Dropping them alive into "that machine" or suffocating them in plastic bags are indefensible practices so when I see poached egg on toast I see the face of those chicks or when I see bacon I see and hear the gas chambers.

Not sure I follow your logic - society/the law are forcing the husband not to have sex with his wife against her will. I'm quite sure a lot of men thought it was their right to do so and no one else's business. All laws force people to do things they might not want to.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Truth bombs have collateral damage too....
> I'm still very upset by the image in my head, and I'm frustrated that I can't articulate well what I find counterproductive about that approach, and yup, I'm butthurt that my feelings don't seem to matter.
> 
> So time for me to take a break, feed my dog some raw chicken that he loves, take him for a walk, and take me for a run.


I didn't say your feelings don't matter and I apologise for upsetting you but you upset me too. It isn't great to feel under attack even from fellow vegans, I expect it from people who are opposed to veganism and I'm ready to debate with them but hope for a bit of support from other vegans. Perhaps you could PM me if you think I've worded something badly but I'm not going to stop posting what happens because if I do and all other activists stop then how will we get the truth known? I hate that I hurt your feelings but I hate what is happening to animals even more and I won't be quiet about it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafa said:


> I hardly think someone choosing to eat poached egg on toast comes into the same category as rape.


I suppose its because we are one step removed from the 'crime' that we can fool ourselves that we arent actually involved in it. I mean would you still want the poached egg if you had to be the one who shoved the chicks into the grinder first??



O2.0 said:


> Truth bombs have collateral damage too....
> I'm still very upset by the image in my head, and I'm frustrated that I can't articulate well what I find counterproductive about that approach, and yup, I'm butthurt that my feelings don't seem to matter.
> 
> So time for me to take a break, feed my dog some raw chicken that he loves, take him for a walk, and take me for a run.


Sorry that its upsetting for you. Its such an emotive topic that its hard to fully discuss it without upsetting some people...and TBF we should feel upset by it.
Although I agree that images and videos shouldnt be released all willy nilly but facts are facts. Hope your run takes your mind of it!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

It's unfair and inappropriate in my opinion.

Part of your thread title is 'Not Graphic'. When you drop in a graphic description of what happens to baby chicks in the middle of the thread, I, and I'm sure others, read it and realised, too late, how horrible it is.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I suppose its because we are one step removed from the 'crime' that we can fool ourselves that we arent actually involved in it. I mean would you still want the poached egg if you had to be the one who shoved the chicks into the grinder first??


Your patronising, holier than thou approach does nothing to promote your cause.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I didn't say your feelings don't matter and I apologise for upsetting you but you upset me too. It isn't great to feel under attack even from fellow vegans, I expect it from people who are opposed to veganism and I'm ready to debate with them but hope for a bit of support from other vegans. Perhaps you could PM me if you think I've worded something badly but I'm not going to stop posting what happens because if I do and all other activists stop then how will we get the truth known? I hate that I hurt your feelings but I hate what is happening to animals even more and I won't be quiet about it.


If you have such strong views you need to accept (and maybe listen) when you are called out, by fellow vegans. Even fellow vegans are going to have different views at times to you. You don't have to change the view but taking on board other peoples feelings might be an idea. You frequently use very graphic language in a blackmailing fashion

I don't think anyone should have to pm you if upset, they have the right to call you out on the thread.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Maybe keep it out of threads that say health thread .


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Elles said:


> Maybe keep it out of threads that say health thread .


And threads that say 'Not Graphic' in the title.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> It's unfair and inappropriate in my opinion.
> 
> Part of your thread title is 'Not Graphic'. When you drop in a graphic description of what happens to baby chicks in the middle of the thread, I, and I'm sure others, read it and realised, too late, how horrible it is.


Actually I had just come back to request the "not graphic" bit in the title be removed and changed for "warning" so I will do that but come on, you have read thread before where I have described these practices.

Anyway @StormyThai @Matrod @SusieRainbow please could you take not graphic out of the title of this thread and change to "warning" as it has digressed since I started it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> Your patronising, holier than thou approach does nothing to promote your cause.


It isn't her cause it should be all of ours cause.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> Maybe keep it out of threads that say health thread .





Rafa said:


> And threads that say 'Not Graphic' in the title.


As I've said above the thread has digressed since I started it so I have requested a change of title.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> It isn't her cause it should be all of ours cause.


In your opinion.

I will decide for myself what my 'cause', if any, should be.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

anachronism said:


> If you have such strong views you need to accept (and maybe listen) when you are called out, by fellow vegans. Even fellow vegans are going to have different views at times to you. You don't have to change the view but taking on board other peoples feelings might be an idea. You frequently use very graphic language in a blackmailing fashion
> 
> I don't think anyone should have to pm you if upset, they have the right to call you out on the thread.


No I really don't "need" to accept any such thing. That is censorship and I will never stop speaking the truth even if upsets people. You all know by now what I am likely to post so put me on ignore or just stop reading my threads if my graphic language upsets you. How can I possibly blackmail anyone on a forum?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> In your opinion.
> 
> I will decide for myself what my 'cause', if any, should be.


Yes in my opinion, we are posting our opinions, you included.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I really don't "need" to accept any such thing. That is censorship and I will never stop speaking the truth even if upsets people. You all know by now what I am likely to post so put me on ignore or just stop reading my threads if my graphic language upsets you. How can I possibly blackmail anyone on a forum?


So you don't want censorship but advise me to block or ignore you? 
You expect everyone to listen to you and your views but won't even entertain anyone elses. Very hypocritical and I thought you had more to you than that.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The trouble is all these threads end up with people who aren’t really interested saying ‘ah but’ and then justifying what they do. Which ends up with people being provoked into giving more detail and going graphic with it to try to explain why they think you can’t say ‘ah but’. 

Saying ‘people should have the choice, it’s not up to you’

Leads to ‘the animals don’t have a choice’

To ‘I eat organic/eggs/dairy and like to see cows’

To why you shouldn’t with more graphic detail

To the organic/eggs/dairy eater being offended.

They’re all the same threads however well meaning they start out and I don’t think that’s entirely down to RPH.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> Easiest and tastiest alternative IMO is cashew milk.
> I have a high powered blender, but you can do this with a regular kitchen blender too, just soak the cashews for about an hour first.
> 3/4 cups of raw (unroasted) cashews, 3 cups of water. Blend. Done.


Boiling the cashews for approx. 15mins will give better results if you don't have a high powered blender. I have a hpb myself but trial and error using other peoples blenders whist demonstrating how to make non diary milks/sauces I have found boiling the nuts first gives a smooth result if the blender is not so powerful. 
I can`t bear any type of milk myself so either drink herbal tea or those best served without milk anyway like Earl Grey. I can drink coffee made with plant milk when out but cannot bear to make coffee at home and use milk - nowt as queer as folk as they say

Regarding feeding my dogs or cats a vegan diet no its not something I would do. My dogs, I cannot stop saying dogs! It is just dog now but I can`t get used to talking about him as a singleton, would most definitely eat prey if left to survive on his own. I would not attempt to feed my elderly cats a vegan diet. However I will not be owning any more dogs or cats after my current beauties have passed away because I increasingly dislike that another animal has to die in order to feed mine. I would only own rescue dogs or cats and the idea of having to return them because they were not thriving on a vegan diet despite my efforts is just abhorrent and of course would not happen so I would be back to feeding dead animals to mine and feeling uneasy about it!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

anachronism said:


> So you don't want censorship but advise me to block or ignore you?
> You expect everyone to listen to you and your views but won't even entertain anyone elses. Very hypocritical and I thought you had more to you than that.


Censhorship


anachronism said:


> So you don't want censorship but advise me to block or ignore you?
> You expect everyone to listen to you and your views but won't even entertain anyone elses. Very hypocritical and I thought you had more to you than that.


*"Censorship* is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient"

You are trying to tell me what I can post and how I can word it thereby you are trying to censor me. I am suggesting if you find what I post objectionable then you have the option not to read my threads or to put me on ignore. That does not interfere with your enjoyment of the forum whereas you are trying to interfere with mine. I'm not sure how that is hypocritical.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> I suppose its because we are one step removed from the 'crime' that we can fool ourselves that we arent actually involved in it. I mean would you still want the poached egg if you had to be the one who shoved the chicks into the grinder first??





Rafa said:


> Your patronising, holier than thou approach does nothing to promote your cause.


How exactly is that patronising!? Im just asking if you would still feel the same if you had to do the actual killing (which you avoided answering...sneaky you!!!  and yes, _that_ was patronising!).
And the cause is just to open peoples eyes to what they are putting in their bodies and how it gets there. How can anybody be againest knowledge??
If you acknowledge the cruelty and are fine with it then there is no point promoting anything and so be it.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Censhorship
> 
> *"Censorship* is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient"
> 
> You are trying to tell me what I can post and how I can word it thereby you are trying to censor me. I am suggesting if you find what I post objectionable then you have the option not to read my threads or to put me on ignore. That does not interfere with your enjoyment of the forum whereas you are trying to interfere with mine. I'm not sure how that is hypocritical.


I know full well what censorship is but thanks for more patronising. I'm not trying to tell you what to post, merely not to be hurt and feel attacked when others disagree with you because they have the right to feel that way and to call you out on it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

anachronism said:


> I know full well what censorship is but thanks for more patronising. I'm not trying to tell you what to post, merely not to be hurt and feel attacked when others disagree with you because they have the right to feel that way and to call you out on it.


Oh boy it seems if I say black is white I'm being patronising. You are trying to tell me how to word my posts because they might be upsetting - that is censorship. I said I was hurt by the comments that *one *fellow vegan poster made, I am not remotely hurt by any other posts in this thread and that poster is more than capable of sticking up for herself without your input. "Call me out" or whatever other term you want to use on what you like but you won't change me or what I am standing up for and it won't stop me describing what happens to animals because people are happy to pay for their body parts or secretions. You accused me of guilt tripping once before when I asked you how you would feel if it were kittens, you have repeatedly told me that we will never agree and that is fine yet here you are again trying to tell me what I can post and how. I can only repeat to you that if you find me or my posts upsetting please feel free to ignore me either by using the ignore function or by not reading my posts.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> How exactly is that patronising!? Im just asking if you would still feel the same if you had to do the actual killing (which you avoided answering...sneaky you!!!  and yes, _that_ was patronising!).
> And the cause is just to open peoples eyes to what they are putting in their bodies and how it gets there. How can anybody be againest knowledge??
> If you acknowledge the cruelty and are fine with it then there is no point promoting anything and so be it.


I can only speak for myself but if it came down to me having to kill animals so my dogs could continue to eat meat or feed them a vegan diet then I would kill animals. I's not something I would like to do but they are carnivores & I believe need to eat meat for a variety of reasons; health & pleasure.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I can only speak for myself but if it came down to me having to kill animals so my dogs could continue to eat meat or feed them a vegan diet then I would kill animals. I's not something I would like to do but they are carnivores & I believe need to eat meat for a variety of reasons; health & pleasure.


Not to be nitpicky (well...totally nitpicky!LOL) but dogs are actually omnivores thanks to 30-40,000 yrs of hanging around with us!
Just curious but do you feel the same about yourself? Would you still eat meat/dairy if you had to kill it yourself? 
I grew up in a hunting and fishing family which was necessary as we couldnt afford meat but now my family just shoots clay targets and does catch and release fishing as they dont want to kill the animals....they still have that disconnect though where they dont consider the pint of milk or pork chop on the shelf as the same thing!


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *Oh boy it seems if I say black is white I'm being patronising*. You are trying to tell me how to word my posts because they might be upsetting - that is censorship. I said I was hurt by the comments that *one *fellow vegan poster made, I am not remotely hurt by any other posts in this thread and that poster is more than capable of sticking up for herself without your input. "Call me out" or whatever other term you want to use on what you like but you won't change me or what I am standing up for and it won't stop me describing what happens to animals because people are happy to pay for their body parts or secretions. You accused me of guilt tripping once before when I asked you how you would feel if it were kittens, you have repeatedly told me that we will never agree and that is fine yet here you are again trying to tell me what I can post and how. I can only repeat to you that if you find me or my posts upsetting please feel free to ignore me either by using the ignore function or by not reading my posts.


No that is what you call nonsensical. Black is black and white is white. What was patronising was explaning to me a word that I already know and is known by most adults. Therefore making out I was too stupid to understand the meaning.

If anyone is trying to censor you it is 02. Though you are frankly being hysterical if a polite request to not put such graphic images in their head is censorship. And I am sure that 02 is capable of sticking up for themselves but why should I not support them? 02 seems a very nice poster

I have gone through my posts on this thread and cannot find an instance of me trying to censor you. Only that you need to accept other people have views different to your own. Not in the slightest bit censorship

And stop telling me to block you. I won't. Because that would be censoring you.

And without going through my posts I am pretty sure I didn't accuse you of guilt tripping when you brought kittens up. I imagine I said I would be a hypocrite if I was agaisnt people eating cats as I eat animals myself.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

anachronism said:


> No that is what you call nonsensical. Black is black and white is white. What was patronising was explaning to me a word that I already know and is known by most adults. Therefore making out I was too stupid to understand the meaning.
> 
> If anyone is trying to censor you it is 02. Though you are frankly being hysterical if a polite request to not put such graphic images in their head is censorship. And I am sure that 02 is capable of sticking up for themselves but why should I not support them? 02 seems a very nice poster
> 
> ...


Yes black is black and white is white and so is murder murder and cruelty cruelty. We can dress it up in pretty language like harvesting or ethical or humane but it is what it is.

It was on the Million Dollar Vegan thread if you want to go back and look but if you can't be bothered you replied this to my post where amongst many other things I asked whether you would feel differently if it was kittens being gassed or thrown in a blender

"We obviously have different views and I shall bow out here I think. I don't agree with using *emotive language and guilt tripping* in order to try and police other peoples diets. This attitude is why people have issues with vegans".

I do accept other people have different views to my own. I can't force you to accept my opinion and you can't force me to accept yours. I listen and read what other people say and then I reply with my view which is what usually happens in a discussion or debate isn't it? As long as victims are involved I will not be quiet or mind my language for fear of upsetting people. Frankly I find it distasteful that you take such issue with the language I use and not the practice being committed. I have not read one condemnation by you of the practice of grinding up live male chicks. By refusing to block me you are unfortunately just going to have to put up with my descriptive language because that is who I am and what I stand for.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes in my opinion, we are posting our opinions, you included.


Yes.

However, what I'm not doing is trying to force my opinion on others and telling them what their chosen 'cause' should be.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> Not to be nitpicky (well...totally nitpicky!LOL) but dogs are actually omnivores thanks to 30-40,000 yrs of hanging around with us!
> Just curious but do you feel the same about yourself? Would you still eat meat/dairy if you had to kill it yourself?
> I grew up in a hunting and fishing family which was necessary as we couldnt afford meat but now my family just shoots clay targets and does catch and release fishing as they dont want to kill the animals....they still have that disconnect though where they dont consider the pint of milk or pork chop on the shelf as the same thing!


I would dispute that dogs are omnivores, there is plenty of research to show that they are actually carnivores ... but it's not B&W .

I am vegan-ish as I sometime eat eggs from my chooks. Personally I have found that people who do hunt/fish for their own food tend to have a better understanding & consideration for what they are eating rather than blindly go to a local supermarket & choose the cheapest stuff regardless of the ethics/welfare concerns.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> Yes.
> 
> However, what I'm not doing is trying to force my opinion on others and telling them what their chosen 'cause' should be.


Really - it read to me like you were trying to tell her being vegan is "her cause" as below

"Your patronising, holier than thou approach does nothing to promote your cause."

I'm saying it isn't just "her cause" .

Again I haven't seen you condemn grinding up chicks alive just taking issue with the way people word their posts. What is your view on what the egg industry do to 30-40 million male chicks every year in the UK?


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes black is black and white is white and so is murder murder and cruelty cruelty. We can dress it up in pretty language like harvesting or ethical or humane but it is what it is.
> 
> It was on the Million Dollar Vegan thread if you want to go back and look but if you can't be bothered you replied this to my post where amongst many other things I asked whether you would feel differently if it was kittens being gassed or thrown in a blender
> 
> ...


You won't read what I haven't written


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I would dispute that dogs are omnivores, there is plenty of research to show that they are actually carnivores ... but it's not B&W .


Funny....Id dispute they are carnivores based on the science! Dogs have adapted to be able to process and digest vegetable matter and convert or retain nutrients out of it which true carnivores cant do.

Not sure why people are getting on to RPH though. All those people feeling personally attacked out there please remember that she is sitting behind a computer screen many miles away from you! Its ridiculously easy for you to just close the thread and walk away. 
Besides surely if you disagree with someone advocating saving animals doesnt that make your position one of being for animal cruelty and abuse?? (strange mindset for a pet forum!). What makes me sad is that I havent heard any of the people attacking RPH disagreeing with the cruelty aspect of the discussion.
Its almost like by creating a sense of moral outrage you can ignore the real moral outrages being inacted everyday....by most of us.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Besides surely if you disagree with someone advocating saving animals doesnt that make your position one of being for animal cruelty and abuse??


I really take exception to that.

I have no problem with anyone advocating saving animals at all. What I object to is a graphic description in the middle of a thread where you read it before you realise.

I spent many years very active in dog rescue, travelling thousands of miles to pick up dogs and take them onto their new homes. I often had several at a time in my house until the right home came along.

Does that give me the right to insist that everyone does the same and post graphic descriptions and videos of dog cruelty/abuse to shock others?

How dare you state that anyone who doesn't want to see or hear this type of account, because they find it too distressing, is pro animal cruelty and abuse?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> Funny....Id dispute they are carnivores based on the science! Dogs have adapted to be able to process and digest vegetable matter and convert or retain nutrients out of it which true carnivores cant do.
> 
> Not sure why people are getting on to RPH though. All those people feeling personally attacked out there please remember that she is sitting behind a computer screen many miles away from you! Its ridiculously easy for you to just close the thread and walk away.
> Besides surely if you disagree with someone advocating saving animals doesnt that make your position one of being for animal cruelty and abuse?? (strange mindset for a pet forum!). What makes me sad is that I havent heard any of the people attacking RPH disagreeing with the cruelty aspect of the discussion.
> Its almost like by creating a sense of moral outrage you can ignore the real moral outrages being inacted everyday....by most of us.


Have you come across the work by Clare Mann the vegan psychologist and author of Vystopia? I found this quite interesting

https://medium.com/@mitchstarrr/i-l...ame-a-vegan-now-im-a-lot-happier-e35a03197fea

this bit jumped out at me

"At its core, there is nothing simpler than being vegan: it is the unwavering belief that using and eating animals is morally wrong. Indeed, if you take out the word vegan then many meat-eaters will likely agree with this sentence.

However, vegans have to learn to navigate a world that suddenly becomes labyrinthine in its complexities. Some vegans tell me that, more than maintaining friendships, the workplace is especially difficult.

There are rules against discriminating against anyone in the workplace based on factors such as race, sexuality, religion, ability or gender. It's true that they aren't always abided by, but at least such a framework exists. Discrimination against vegans is still common. Some people tell me they get laughed at regularly for their choice. It doesn't surprise me. Even in 2018, animal cruelty and torture remain pretty high on the laughometer, otherwise we wouldn't celebrate horse-racing or take our kids to the circus."


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> I really take exception to that.
> 
> I have no problem with anyone advocating saving animals at all. What I object to is a graphic description in the middle of a thread where you read it before you realise.
> 
> ...


The graphic description you are referring to is one I have used elsewhere in other threads and you haven't objected to it before, the only bit I added in this one was about looking at their faces as they go over the edge and feeling betrayal in your heart.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

This is becoming very heated and personal.
I'm not taking sides or discussing my beliefs, but just asking that everyone respects each others' opinions without the personal comments and unpleasantness.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

3dogs2cats said:


> My dogs, I cannot stop saying dogs! It is just dog now but I can`t get used to talking about him as a singleton,


This resonated with me so much! Breez has been gone nearly 2 years now, and I still find myself saying and typing dogs plural instead of dog. It's the first time in my life we've been a single dog home and I just can't get used to it! Bates seems to like it just fine though LOL!

Okay, back to our regularly scheduled programming  
I'm back, hopefully more clearheaded. I even put my reading glasses on so I can read without squinting 

I'm not a vegan. I'm not trying to be vegan. I'm just trying to live my life as I see fit causing as little harm as I can. 
There's a lot of vegans who won't have me anyway, and are quick to tell me that too. 
There's even more folks out there who for whatever reason find my personal choices threatening and are quick to find any little thing about my life to nit-pick about and call me out for not being vegan enough. So I don't use the label vegan. Or vegetarian. Or anything really. And yes, I do resent that there are people out there who are so nasty that people like me feel like we need to hide our life choices for fear of being attacked for them. 
So there's that....

One label though I will give myself is educator. I've devoted my life to teaching. Humans, animals, children, adults... I'm a teacher. 
And as a teacher I've learned a couple of things. One, you have to meet people where they're at. There is no sense in me trying to teach calculus to someone who doesn't understand the basics of addition and multiplication. And getting irritated and frustrated with the pupil for not understanding calculus, blaming them, and insisting they just try harder is counter productive at best. Meet people where they're at, build from there.

The best, deepest, most impactful learning comes withing the context of a relationship where the learner feels safe. Not a whole lot of learning happens when people feel unsafe. Attacked, cornered, shamed, judged. That is not conducive to learning and true change. In fact it is often counter productive as people will entrench themselves further in to their own paradigms.

But probably the most important thing I've figured out is that the more I know the less I'm sure of. I don't have all the answers, none of us do. 
When I first stopped eating meat it was easy. If it was an animal I didn't eat it. Simple, straight forward. Easy. But the more I learn, the more I understand different cultures, how deeply intertwined our food choices are to our phyche as people, as families... The more I learn about different people, different animals, different ways of harvesting and processing, different lives... It gets really complicated and the answers aren't as easy anymore. 
Is my breakfast of pineapple, probably picked by migrant workers, with it's long history of land grabbing from native peoples more cruelty-free than an egg from a backyard chicken? I don't know. Like, I really don't know. The pineapple is better for my health, sure, but I don't know if I can feel ethically better about that choice.

So we all make those decisions. Every day. Which is the lesser evil. Some choices are easy. Stay away from McDonald's. I think we can all agree on that one. Others get more complicated. I'm going to put honey on my toast instead of butter. The honey is from a co-worker who keeps her own bees. It's lovely, changes in flavor though the seasons and what the bees are getting in to. I like to think I'm doing my part to save the bees. The vegan police will tell me I'm not a 'real' vegan because I eat honey. So I won't be a vegan, but I'll keep trying to live my life causing the least amount of damage I can. I think that's all any of us can aim for.

And in that vein, I certainly don't wish to do any 'damage' on this thread either or those reading it


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafa said:


> How dare you state that anyone who doesn't want to see or hear this type of account, because they find it too distressing, is pro animal cruelty and abuse?


I didnt state anything....I merely posed a question to get you to think about your position. You are welcome to pose questions to me to to make me question veganism if you like.
Also I dont doubt you are a dog lover given that this is a pet forum. The bigger question is are you an animal lover??



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Have you come across the work by Clare Mann the vegan psychologist and author of Vystopia? I found this quite interesting
> 
> https://medium.com/@mitchstarrr/i-l...ame-a-vegan-now-im-a-lot-happier-e35a03197fea


Def agree with this article. I havent had anybody openly abuse me for my choices but the truth is I do seem to make alot of friends and family uncomfortable now just by the mere fact of having a moral objection to abusing animals for food and goods. Its like you suddenly become a big neon sign of all the things they are trying not to think about as they eat that cheese and ham sandwich.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> This resonated with me so much! Breez has been gone nearly 2 years now, and I still find myself saying and typing dogs plural instead of dog. It's the first time in my life we've been a single dog home and I just can't get used to it! Bates seems to like it just fine though LOL!
> 
> Okay, back to our regularly scheduled programming
> I'm back, hopefully more clearheaded. I even put my reading glasses on so I can read without squinting
> ...


This is truly a wonderful post 02, you have a great philosophy


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> I didnt state anything....I merely posed a question to get you to think about your position. You are welcome to pose questions to me to to make me question veganism if you like.
> Also I dont doubt you are a dog lover given that this is a pet forum. The bigger question is are you an animal lover??
> 
> Def agree with this article. I havent had anybody openly abuse me for my choices but the truth is I do seem to make alot of friends and family uncomfortable now just by the mere fact of having a moral objection to abusing animals for food and goods. Its like you suddenly become a big neon sign of all the things they are trying not to think about as they eat that cheese and ham sandwich.


Yep. Even my 81 year old Mum who isn't vegan or vegetarian or plant based gets challenged all the time about what her daughter thinks about things (even though I've never met them) or what we eat etc. She tells me she is constantly having to defend me or explain my position which is really unfair as she doesn't understand most of it anyway.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

anachronism said:


> This is truly a wonderful post 02, you have a great philosophy


It is an admirable position and Im glad that there are people in the world who feel so strongly about education and tolerance.
Im equally glad that there are people willing to stand up and fight for what they believe is right as well. Sadly few great social changes happened in a calm and peaceful manner, sometimes you have to scream to be heard. Just think of all the things that were totally acceptable 100 years ago and are morally reprehensible today. Heck, just think about the #metoo movement....thats social change being overhauled as we speak!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> Funny....Id dispute they are carnivores based on the science!


Depends on what research you read … some studies now suggest that they still lean towards carnivore


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Depends on what research you read … some studies now suggest that they still lean towards carnivore


I know if I offered our two the choice between a plate of chicken or a plate of broccoli which one they would go for.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Duplicate post.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafa said:


> I know if I offered our two the choice between a plate of chicken or a plate of broccoli which one they would go for.


one of mine would go for the broccoli!


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Rafa said:


> I know if I offered our two the choice between a plate of chicken or a plate of broccoli which one they would go for.


There was a woman on This Morning who took her "veggie" husky on and they gave it the choice. Went straight for the meat


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

anachronism said:


> This is truly a wonderful post 02, you have a great philosophy


Thanks  
I should have said I'm using honey instead of *vegan* butter, we don't have cow's milk butter in the house. The vegan butter is okay I guess, but it's packaged in plastic which is bothering me more and more these days, and even though we recycle religiously, I don't even want to bring it in the house. Then for vegan butter, I have to make sure I'm getting a brand that doesn't have palm oil because I really don't want to contribute at all to that industry. This particular brand has a lot of omega 3's which makes me feel a little better, but in the end, I do think the honey is the healthier, more environmentally friendly, and possibly more ethical choice. But again, what the hell do I know!? And I do say that with some frustration because I really do try to do the 'right' thing, or at least the least damaging one, and it seems to get harder and harder to figure out what is right the more you try!



catz4m8z said:


> Im equally glad that there are people willing to stand up and fight for what they believe is right as well.


Just because my 'fight' is not visible to you, don't assume it's not happening, or that I'm not effecting change.

There are plenty of quiet changemakers. Jane Goodall for one. I absolutely love her, and love her philosophy on this topic:
*"Michael Pollan likens consumer choices to pulling single threads out of a garment. We pull a thread from the garment when we refuse to purchase eggs or meat from birds who were raised in confinement, whose beaks were clipped so they could never once taste their natural diet of worms and insects. We pull out a thread when we refuse to bring home a hormone-fattened turkey for Thanksgiving dinner. We pull a thread when we refuse to buy meat or dairy products from cows who were never allowed to chew grass, or breathe fresh air, or feel the warm sun on their backs.
The more threads we pull, the more difficult it is for the industry to stay intact. You demand eggs and meat without hormones, and the industry will have to figure out how it can raise farm animals without them. Let the animals graze outside and it slows production. Eventually the whole thing will have to unravel.
If the factory farm does indeed unravel - and it must - then there is hope that we can, gradually, reverse the environmental damage it has caused. Once the animal feed operations have gone and livestock are once again able to graze, there will be a massive reduction in the agricultural chemicals currently used to grow grain for animals. And eventually, the horrendous contamination caused by animal waste can be cleaned up. None of this will be easy.
The hardest part of returning to a truly healthy environment may be changing the current totally unsustainable heavy-meat-eating culture of increasing numbers of people around the world. But we must try. We must make a start, one by one."*

The author she's referencing, Michael Pollan's book "The Omnivore's Dilema" is well worth the read IMHO. He's not vegan or even vegetarian, but he does a fabulous job tracing the origin of the food we eat and how to make more ethical choices when it comes to our consumer choices.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

anachronism said:


> There was a woman on This Morning who took her "veggie" husky on and they gave it the choice. Went straight for the meat


Not sure that giving dogs a choice is an accurate test TBH. Would they choose to go to the vets? or not chase a cat?
One of mine would choose to eat poop all day long....


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> One of mine would choose to eat poop all day long....


Probably trying to regain some nutrients missing from that vegan diet   
I kid, I kid! Sorry, couldn't resist!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Not sure that giving dogs a choice is an accurate test TBH. Would they choose to go to the vets? or not chase a cat?
> One of mine would choose to eat poop all day long....


Sometimes, we make choices for them which we know are in their best interest.

If they're sick or injured, we take them to the Vet because we know that is necessary.

We don't allow them to chase cats, as that would be wrong and dangerous.

Most of us feed them meat, as we believe that is what is best for them and most enjoyed by them.

It really is about doing what we believe is the best for our dogs.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> Not sure that giving dogs a choice is an accurate test TBH. Would they choose to go to the vets? or not chase a cat?
> One of mine would choose to eat poop all day long....


Most kids I know would choose a bag of sweets or a McDonalds over vegetables but that doesn't mean sweets and McDonalds are natural or better for them. All 3 of mine try to eat stinky poop too which is gross


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Most kids I know would choose a bag of sweets or a McDonalds over vegetables


Kids choose what they're used to IME.
And they're also weird 
I have no idea how my son is related to me, he has no sweet tooth. As a youngster his Halloween candy would sit in his room until Christmas when I would give up and throw it out. However, he does throw obscene amounts of garlic on everything so maybe he's related to me after all.

To this day both my kids will choose fruit over snack cakes or most packaged salty snacks. They do like ChexMix and doritos, but even then sometimes they just want the 'real' food because they know they feel better when they eat better. Even at 16 they can tell the difference. So there is hope


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> Probably trying to regain some nutrients missing from that vegan diet
> I kid, I kid! Sorry, couldn't resist!


yeah, I would worry if it was the same one that stuffs her face with raw broccoli and cabbage but luckily its not!!LOL


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Kids choose what they're used to IME.
> And they're also weird
> I have no idea how my son is related to me, he has no sweet tooth. As a youngster his Halloween candy would sit in his room until Christmas when I would give up and throw it out. However, he does throw obscene amounts of garlic on everything so maybe he's related to me after all.
> 
> To this day both my kids will choose fruit over snack cakes or most packaged salty snacks. They do like ChexMix and doritos, but even then sometimes they just want the 'real' food because they know they feel better when they eat better. Even at 16 they can tell the difference. So there is hope


There is always hope and we can only hope more parents bring their children up as you have.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> Not sure that giving dogs a choice is an accurate test TBH. Would they choose to go to the vets? or not chase a cat?
> One of mine would choose to eat poop all day long....


Same with my dog. Yet the choice was being discussed so I added an example. 
Maybe it would be a fun experiment thread on dog chat


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Most kids I know would choose a bag of sweets or a McDonalds over vegetables but that doesn't mean sweets and McDonalds are natural or better for them. All 3 of mine try to eat stinky poop too which is gross


Your children ??:Vomit:Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> There is always hope and we can only hope more parents bring their children up as you have.


It's the butterfly effect isn't it? Small changes multiply and add up to big changes. Even if my children eventually choose not to be vegan, they will at least not be weirded out by those who are, and thus make it more normalized. If they choose to have kids there's yet another generation who sees not eating meat easily on the spectrum of normal, and the acceptance grows. 
Guess those 'quiet' changes make a difference too


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

SusieRainbow said:


> Your children ??:Vomit:Hilarious


:Hilarious:Hilarious No thankfully I don't have children just dogs.



O2.0 said:


> It's the butterfly effect isn't it? Small changes multiply and add up to big changes. Even if my children eventually choose not to be vegan, they will at least not be weirded out by those who are, and thus make it more normalized. If they choose to have kids there's yet another generation who sees not eating meat easily on the spectrum of normal, and the acceptance grows.
> Guess those 'quiet' changes make a difference too


Of course every change makes a difference. I do try hard to be encouraging to those prepared to make small changes as I know it can seem overwhelming to make big changes all at once. I love how accepting the young are of different ways of doing things so yes I hope with each generation more and more will find veganism acceptable and be open to the information and helping to bring about change.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Dairy farmer admits most arguments against veganism are daft.

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/dairy-farmer-most-arguments-against-veganism-nonsense?utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=a2bea61b4d-Weekly+News+Updates&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-a2bea61b4d-[LIST_EMAIL_ID]&ct=t(Weekly+News!)&mc_cid=a2bea61b4d&mc_eid=[UNIQID]

Love this article.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

anachronism said:


> Same with my dog. Yet the choice was being discussed so I added an example.
> Maybe it would be a fun experiment thread on dog chat


Ive seen a few Youtube experiments like this where they invariably put in front of a dog a bowl of wet dog food and a whole lettuce and call it proof that that dog goes for the dog food! Would be more logical if you put down a head of broccoli and a rabbit! (given that choice most of my lot would go very hungry as a they would just stand around sniffing things!LOL).



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Dairy farmer admits most arguments against veganism are daft.


Hopefully there are savvy farmers out there looking into changing their practices away from animal agriculture and onto plants!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> This resonated with me so much! Breez has been gone nearly 2 years now, and I still find myself saying and typing dogs plural instead of dog. It's the first time in my life we've been a single dog home and I just can't get used to it! Bates seems to like it just fine though LOL!
> 
> Okay, back to our regularly scheduled programming
> I'm back, hopefully more clearheaded. I even put my reading glasses on so I can read without squinting
> ...


What a wonderful post, really great. I know we've not always seen things the same but I applaud you for this.

It echoes so much of what I think and do. I share your approach on labels, me being somewhere in the middle of vegan/vegetarian.

I have a passion for ethical produce and low air miles. I'm certainly not a vegan for real because I put carbon footprints first and refuse to buy shipped produce that has a ethical concern and that's my personal boundary that I chose to make. If a product was vegetarian no palm oil and the equivalent was vegan but had palm oil and I couldn't be certain it was ethical, I'd buy the vegetarian one. We all have different codes and values.

As for my dog, she will continue to eat meat, her choice and also my husband's who also is her owner. I buy it from a small supplier with the least amount of shipping. I'd likely always feed dogs meat because it's the vets best advice and I trust them. I did once own a terrier cross who'd recall for cauliflower but I can't say anyone wanted to share a room with her.

On the plus side, I have learned a lot from PF and these posts so when I do make choices I have knowledge but as an HSP I'd really rather it was done without shocks, I understand that these things sadly happen but I only need to know once so I always appreciate a warning but this is often why I'm reluctant to pop onto these threads.

I hope others do learn and we can all make small but impactful changes to our lives and thus animals and ultimately our planet.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

There's no easy way to say it, but without radical & urgent action to change our entire way of life, billions more animals will die & we will lose the battle to save our planet. I fear our only hope now is mass civil disobedience or our future is bleak.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> There's no easy way to say it, but without radical & urgent action to change our entire way of life, billions more animals will die & we will lose the battle to save our planet. I fear our only hope now is mass civil disobedience or our future is bleak.


Sadly I'm afraid these figures fall largely on death ears Noushka, the figures are astounding 1,857,666,000 in the UK since January 1st and 15,926,897,000 in the US since January 1st - the US figures equate to *261* animals killed per *second *if you include fish its more like *1,750* per *second. *Which makes it even more astounding that anyone thinks we can possibly sustain these numbers going forward and extremely arrogant of the human species to feel entitled to even attempt to do so. I agree change is going to come about from the bottom up but we have a huge battle to fight against the vested interests which spread far and wide throughout governments/industry and mainstream media.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> Not to be nitpicky (well...totally nitpicky!LOL) but dogs are actually omnivores thanks to 30-40,000 yrs of hanging around with us!
> Just curious but do you feel the same about yourself? Would you still eat meat/dairy if you had to kill it yourself?
> I grew up in a hunting and fishing family which was necessary as we couldnt afford meat but now my family just shoots clay targets and does catch and release fishing as they dont want to kill the animals....they still have that disconnect though where they dont consider the pint of milk or pork chop on the shelf as the same thing!


When on holiday in Norway it is cheaper for us to go fishing, so yes we kill our meat when we want it if the option to do so is readily available


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

All any of us can do is make our own choices, and live with our conscience, however, it’s useful if people do so based on a few facts.

Such information can be imparted without deliberate shock tactics, however, some details are impossible to make pink and fluffy.

We need to know how meat/eggs/dairy/fish are produced so we can make our choices. 

Yes, probably most people prefer not to know or can ignore reality but I think people should be made aware what goes on - again, without unnecessarily gory detail.

Watching a programme last night an organic, free range egg producer advised that we can all help just by buying boxes of mixed size eggs as young birds tend to produce small eggs and older birds produce larger eggs naturally. The fashion for large and extra large eggs is detrimental to the welfare of many hens.

Even then, there is still the question of what happens to the male chicks. They could be reared for the pot (after living a happy, high welfare, free range life) but again ultimately, they will reach life’s end. 

As I said, we make our own choices and every little helps in the long run.

I don’t eat meat/eggs/dairy. I don’t buy leather/silk/wool. I make the effort to avoid all those things as hidden ingredients in products, etc.

I still eat fish and prawns.

Don’t judge me


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rafa said:


> It's unfair and inappropriate in my opinion.
> 
> Part of your thread title is 'Not Graphic'. When you drop in a graphic description of what happens to baby chicks in the middle of the thread, I, and I'm sure others, read it and realised, too late, how horrible it is.


The first time I read that, many months ago now, I went egg free immediately.

Result, I'd say . (Gold Star to RPH )

I don't needs eggs to survive and manage (for the most part) to avoid them in prepared food when out.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed eggs and they were unfertilised so they weren't dying for me - but I feel so much happier not contributing to the industry's practices.

The only way I could even consider consuming an egg in future is if it came from hens I might own (who would be rescued from battery cages) but I honestly think, even then, I couldn't actually eat one now.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@catz4m8z speaking of Clare Mann did you see this interview with That Vegan Couple where they discuss the recent day of action in Australia and the media coverage/condemnation by the Australian PM calling the activists Un-Australian green collared criminals. Yeah right the people showing films of what happens behind closed doors are terrorists and criminals but the people carrying out those acts are good folks and the back bone of Australia 

This is a short 6 min clip


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> All any of us can do is make our own choices, and live with our conscience, however, it's useful if people do so based on a few facts.
> 
> Such information can be imparted without deliberate shock tactics, however, some details are impossible to make pink and fluffy.
> 
> ...


Completely agree, some times it's ,much better to encourage people to change slightly rather than preaching at them to give up certain things. My mum is veggie but now buys small eggs since I told her about how chickens can be harmed by producing large eggs, she has also encouraged her friends to do the same. Will she ever be vegan? No, she wouldn't want to (& couldn't be for health reasons) but she & many other people like her have made small changes to their lifestyles.

It is about making small changes .....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> The first time I read that, many months ago now, I went egg free immediately.
> 
> Result, I'd say . (Gold Star to RPH )
> 
> ...


Thank you, I really appreciate your support.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @catz4m8z speaking of Clare Mann did you see this interview with That Vegan Couple where they discuss the recent day of action in Australia and the media coverage/condemnation by the Australian PM calling the activists Un-Australian green collared criminals.


I have alot of respect for what they doing in Australia at the moment but it is just unbelieveable how the government and media are responding to it. Almost like the activists are being blamed for the graphic and cruel practices that they are trying to inform people about! Surely we should all educate ourselves about where our food comes from?
Lets not even consider the other issues going into the future of climate change, species extinction and world wide famine! Nope, lets keep condemning the freaky, weirdo vegan terrorists and do our best to deny:Bag the avalanche of disasters that our heading our way!:Banghead


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Did anyone watch Dominion? I’ve seen it mentioned, but usually by people saying they can’t watch it. 

I think anyone who loves animals, likes to see cows in the fields and believe they eat organic, free range, humanely killed beasts could give it and others like earthlings a watch. Of course if you are trying to be ethical, it would be hard to believe the animals you personally eat were mistreated, or if they were, it was illegally, than realise that this is what they call humane and is legal. These films are like horror films though. 

I kept my horse on an organic farm where pigs were kept for fattening. Occasionally the farmer would kill one for his own use. It wasn’t pretty, they didn’t have good lives and when the majority were sent off for slaughter, they weren’t clicker trained into the lorry. I’d guess that was as good as it gets and most don’t get that. I’ve kept them on normal farms too. Most farmers can’t afford sentiment and become immune to what some of us none farmers might see as cruelty, or suffering.

Green collar criminals.  They’d be the farmers letting slurry into the rivers, not the activists. It sounds more like something Trump would mistakenly tweet. Is the whole world ruled by idiot figureheads atm? How did we let it happen? Maybe it always has been that way, they just managed to hide it. :Bag


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> Did anyone watch Dominion? I've seen it mentioned, but usually by people saying they can't watch it.
> 
> I think anyone who loves animals, likes to see cows in the fields and believe they eat organic, free range, humanely killed beasts could give it and others like earthlings a watch. Of course if you are trying to be ethical, it would be hard to believe the animals you personally eat were mistreated, or if they were, it was illegally, than realise that this is what they call humane and is legal. These films are like horror films though.
> 
> ...


No I still haven't watched it, just short clips and the trailer which are enough. I can really only cope with watching things in small doses, usually someone says something such as what happens to male chicks and I think, no that can't be right so I go and look into it and end up forcing myself to watch at least one clip of it so that I know for sure or I go delving into official guidelines from DEFRA on what is allowed and end up looking for further evidence. What is allowed particularly to male calves and goats is so distressing.

My poor OH, I've told him when we retire we are getting another motorhome and will be setting up our own activist group and going around the country doing Cubes of Truth, meat the victim and anything else that has come along in the meantime. He thinks we are going to Portugal for months on end to sit in the sun :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> I have alot of respect for what they doing in Australia at the moment but it is just unbelieveable how the government and media are responding to it. Almost like the activists are being blamed for the graphic and cruel practices that they are trying to inform people about! Surely we should all educate ourselves about where our food comes from?
> Lets not even consider the other issues going into the future of climate change, species extinction and world wide famine! Nope, lets keep condemning the freaky, weirdo vegan terrorists and do our best to deny:Bag the avalanche of disasters that our heading our way!:Banghead


Not just Australia, we had a very effective "meat the victims" day here in the UK a few weeks back on a pig farm where a lot of footage was obtained although of course the media coverage took the farmers side and reported her version of events as if it was fact despite there being loads of live coverage footage showing piglets already dead when the activists first entered and some dead/decayed bodies found dumped outside.

Short video from the UK pig farm event - WARNING some of the images might be upsetting although none are graphic, I found it very moving and humbling.






Activists in Spain have been doing quite a lot of "meat the victims" and today a group of over 100 blockaded a slaughterhouse in Catalunya for 12 hours and managed to rescue some of the poor pigs. The more the footage gets out in to the public the sooner people will have to accept what their money is paying for.

I've been watching live footage of this blockade in Spain and the police are absolutely disgraceful, surely they must know they are being filmed and the footage goes out live around the world, big male officers in full riot gear stamping on activists bodies including young girls


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Completely agree, some times it's ,much better to encourage people to change slightly rather than preaching at them to give up certain things. My mum is veggie but now buys small eggs since I told her about how chickens can be harmed by producing large eggs, she has also encouraged her friends to do the same. Will she ever be vegan? No, she wouldn't want to (& couldn't be for health reasons) but she & many other people like her have made small changes to their lifestyles.
> 
> It is about making small changes .....


Yes, agree with you and @Lurcherlad. My parents are from the meat and two veg but when they come here they are served veggie food and when we went on holiday together, they were rather taken with some of the food I was enjoying. My husband now only has meat if he goes out for food or cooks himself (he can nuke a jacket potato so tough one could wear instead of shoes, so it's a very rare thing). I just cook and plonk it down and it's no big deal. They've no idea if it was a vegan or vegetarian meal...I suspect if I had said, there might be frowning, esp. from my parents! I don't see any of them being vegan or vegetarian but they have started to eat less meat and understand that the veg from my dad's allotment does not always require meat with it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> Did anyone watch Dominion? I've seen it mentioned, but usually by people saying they can't watch it.


Ive never watched any of the big documentaries about animal cruelty....Im a complete marshmallow about this kind of stuff and just fall apart at even the hint of unhappy animals.:Shy Really glad that there are people out there who can document it though.
Sometimes it just hits me though how long I was totally oblivious for and happily eating animal products,esp given how easy it is to just not do it!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sadly I'm afraid these figures fall largely on death ears Noushka, the figures are astounding 1,857,666,000 in the UK since January 1st and 15,926,897,000 in the US since January 1st - the US figures equate to *261* animals killed per *second *if you include fish its more like *1,750* per *second. *Which makes it even more astounding that anyone thinks we can possibly sustain these numbers going forward and extremely arrogant of the human species to feel entitled to even attempt to do so. I agree change is going to come about from the bottom up but we have a huge battle to fight against the vested interests which spread far and wide throughout governments/industry and mainstream media.


This is cruelty & suffering on an industrial scale, absolutely horrific. How can anyone think is sustainable? Thats why you must keep doing what you are doing RPH . Shout it from the rooftops, because time is not on our side. If we are to avert ecological catastrophe we must have radical change & fast .



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not just Australia, we had a very effective "meat the victims" day here in the UK a few weeks back on a pig farm where a lot of footage was obtained although of course the media coverage took the farmers side and reported her version of events as if it was fact despite there being loads of live coverage footage showing piglets already dead when the activists first entered and some dead/decayed bodies found dumped outside.
> 
> Short video from the UK pig farm event - WARNING some of the images might be upsetting although none are graphic, I found it very moving and humbling.
> 
> ...


These activists are true heroes. Governments clamp down on these brave & selfless individuals because they represent the interests of the powerful meat lobby. We have got to force change! The corporate media are mouth pieces for the establishment.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not just Australia, we had a very effective "meat the victims" day here in the UK a few weeks back on a pig farm where a lot of footage was obtained although of course the media coverage took the farmers side and reported her version of events as if it was fact despite there being loads of live coverage footage showing piglets already dead when the activists first entered and some dead/decayed bodies found dumped outside.
> 
> Short video from the UK pig farm event - WARNING some of the images might be upsetting although none are graphic, I found it very moving and humbling.
> 
> ...


Earthling Ed, I do like him. I like that the activists don't need to hide who they are.

What I don't like is the separating of generations. It comes up regularly in podcasts about how terrible all the oldies are and how the young are going to save the world

People of all ages have been campaigning against cruelty to animals for years, that's why it's no longer thought acceptable to drip shampoo in bunnies' eyes. Thinking that your own generation is somehow better than previous ones, when many respected environmentalists and animal activists are well into their latter years and it was much harder for them, just separates and alienates people who should be coming together and I wish they wouldn't do it. It's just as important for 60 year olds to come on board as it is 15 year olds.  As the 60 year olds are in charge at the moment, maybe even more so.

I suppose that's the young for you though. I wonder if I was like that when I was young. I hope not.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> respected environmentalists and animal activists


The respected environmentalists & ARAs I know or follow are 100% behind the younger generation - standing shoulder to shoulder with them in fact. I haven't seen a single one say anything negative about young activists. I dont take it personally when the young rightly state that my generation & older generations have badly let down them & future generations down - because its the truth. Their future is now in peril because of our inaction/apathy/greed.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> This is cruelty & suffering on an industrial scale, absolutely horrific. How can anyone think is sustainable? Thats why you must keep doing what you are doing RPH . Shout it from the rooftops, because time is not on our side. If we are to avert ecological catastrophe we must have radical change & fast .
> 
> These activists are true heroes. Governments clamp down on these brave & selfless individuals because they represent the interests of the powerful meat lobby. We have got to force change! The corporate media are mouth pieces for the establishment.


Unfortunately I think we are beginning to realise just how much the media are in bed with big business. The recent actions in Australia have had a very biased media coverage, shocking really when there are so many live feed videos of what actually happened. One of the worse offenders - a channel who made a so called documentary news feature about vegan activists turned out to be owned by a billionaire landowner who is heavily involved in cattle/sheep farming.



Elles said:


> Earthling Ed, I do like him. I like that the activists don't need to hide who they are.
> 
> What I don't like is the separating of generations. It comes up regularly in podcasts about how terrible all the oldies are and how the young are going to save the world
> 
> ...


Yes I like Ed too, he is so calm and polite and has a lovely way of talking with people. He has been invited to do quite a lot of university lectures and now two TED talks. I haven't seen too much separating of generations but I suppose its mainly the younger activists who are putting out a lot of YouTube and Instagram content. I do remember back in the 80's before computers and mobile phones that we had to organise meetings and go to the library to get information by trawling through scientific journals so its certainly easier now.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Just an aside, I'm not sure how I feel about "rescuing" animals meant for slaughter. 

It's a complex, complicated issue, and like a lot of rescue, human ego can cloud decision making. I posted a thread recently on the ethics of dog rescue that didn't get a lot of reads, I get it, people are interested in other things, but the point still stands. You have to wonder how much of it is keeping an animal alive for the sake of being able to say "we didn't let this one die" and how much is truly examining what is in the best interest of that individual animal. 

Pigs are so smart and perceptive, I would imagine a pig who has been reared in factory farm conditions and has been 'saved' from a slaughterhouse is going to be emotionally traumatized to say the least. The pig will need some serious emotional care, not just physical care. Having seen some seriously damaged dogs in rescue I often wonder if it would have been kinder to humanely euthanize the poor dog instead. 

Which when it comes to the pig, then I wonder if it's kinder to euthanize, and you're going to kill the animal anyway, wouldn't it be better to use the meat and not let it go to waste? 
Again, this is where I really don't know what the right answer is. I just don't. Part of me looks at the priviledged westerner saving the pig from a slaughterhouse as the epitome of symbolic rescue - as in, doing it for the instagram post, and afterwards the 'saved' animal is forgotten about.
But then I look at people like Fiona Oaks and I'm really and truly inspired. 

I think these discussions are good in that we should all really be thinking about these topics - much as we may not want to. But I think it's important to remember that none of us has all the answers, and there has to be room in the discussion for questioning and disagreement. And an ego check here and there wouldn't go amiss either


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Just an aside, I'm not sure how I feel about "rescuing" animals meant for slaughter.
> 
> It's a complex, complicated issue, and like a lot of rescue, human ego can cloud decision making. I posted a thread recently on the ethics of dog rescue that didn't get a lot of reads, I get it, people are interested in other things, but the point still stands. You have to wonder how much of it is keeping an animal alive for the sake of being able to say "we didn't let this one die" and how much is truly examining what is in the best interest of that individual animal.
> 
> ...


I sort of understand what you mean & whilst there are some amazing selfless people involved in all types of rescue there are (unfortunately) also of ego's …. but then there are in lots of areas of activism IME.

I suppose it depends on the animal, my ex-batts spent approx. 18mths in awful conditions (probably) in physically they have been in dreadful states but surprisingly they have adapted very well to their new environments & started displaying natural behaviours that were previously denied to them within hours.

What I really don't understand is people who disrupt the transportations & take photos of them sticking their hands in to 'comfort' the animals being transported for slaughter ….. surely this is just another stressor for them & why would anyone want to do that …. except for the FB pic to depict them as some sort of saint


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> What I really don't understand is people who disrupt the transportations & take photos of them sticking their hands in to 'comfort' the animals being transported for slaughter ….. surely this is just another stressor for them & why would anyone want to do that …. except for the FB pic to depict them as some sort of saint


Ugh! Yes, this sort of thing drives me insane


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Just an aside, I'm not sure how I feel about "rescuing" animals meant for slaughter.
> 
> It's a complex, complicated issue, and like a lot of rescue, human ego can cloud decision making. I posted a thread recently on the ethics of dog rescue that didn't get a lot of reads, I get it, people are interested in other things, but the point still stands. You have to wonder how much of it is keeping an animal alive for the sake of being able to say "we didn't let this one die" and how much is truly examining what is in the best interest of that individual animal.
> 
> ...


I think like with dog rescue it depends on the sanctuary/facilities they are going to. There are wonderful sanctuaries like Fiona's and a few others I've seen and I have no doubt there are bad ones too and those animals would be better off being PTS but kindly by a vet not in a slaughterhouse I would hope.

I feel like your last sentence is a dig at me and if it is so be it. I don't have all the answers but I am looking for them and this thread is not about me its about animals so why make it personal?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I sort of understand what you mean & whilst there are some amazing selfless people involved in all types of rescue there are (unfortunately) also of ego's. I do think there are a lot of ego's involved …. but then there ae in lots of areas of activism IME.
> 
> I suppose it depends on the animal, my ex-batts spent approx. 18mths in awful conditions (probably) in physically they have been in dreadful states but surprisingly they have adapted very well to their new environments & started displaying natural behaviours that were previously denied to them within hours.
> 
> What I really don't understand is people who disrupt the transportations & take photos of them sticking their hands in to 'comfort' the animals being transported for slaughter ….. surely this is just another stressor for them & why would anyone want to do that …. except for the FB pic to depict them as some sort of saint


They do it to bear witness and to get footage of the faces of the animals so that people who pay for the treatment and slaughter get to see the individuals involved. They are not trying to be a saint but to show people their victims.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Rescuing the pigs gets noticed though. So I agree, kinder to that individual to euthanise, but from a publicity standpoint rescuing peppa pig might just be a catalyst for someone to change. Putting their hands in to comfort the animals, even if it terrifies them, shows that they don’t want to harm us and gives them a face.

The animals shouldn’t be in the situation they’re in, so I’m not going to be annoyed with people doing the ‘wrong’ thing whether it’s for ego, Instagram, or compassion.

I think all animals are the same, so it’s weird to me that someone will rescue a dumped dog and donate money for it, hating anyone who buys a puppy, while looking forward to their Sunday roast and full English. Insisting everyone get a dog that someone else got rid of, instead of hating on the person who got rid of it and put it in that situation and the rescue that enables it. Would people be so quick to buy dogs if the only way they could get rid of them was at the vets, or, even worse, an abattoir? 

On the other hand, wouldn’t it it be horrible if the only way hateful people could get rid of unwanted dogs was at the vet or abattoir? They used to drown unwanted puppies in buckets of water. Still do for all I know. 

I have to take Elles to the vet for her 10 day post op check in a minute. Early because of the bank holiday. I’m not sure if her wound is ok, or not. It’s a bit weepy, but it is on her stifle, so I didn’t expect it to just sit and heal. *sigh*


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> They do it to bear witness and to get footage of the faces of the animals so that people who pay for the treatment and slaughter get to see the individuals involved. They are not trying to be a saint but to show people their victims.


But they are causing extra stress to animals who are already distressed …. that's the bit I don't understand. Why prolong the journey for them anymore? Why try to touch them when the animals have no means of escape? Surely the whole point is the consideration of the animas & not the needs of the person? Fine to show footage, etc & distress but not to add to it.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I feel like your last sentence is a dig at me and if it is so be it. I don't have all the answers but I am looking for them and this thread is not about me its about animals so why make it personal?


It wasn't. 
I didn't even quote you. I was commenting on the thread in general. There's egos on all sides.

But honestly Rottie, if you felt that some of that hit home, that's on you.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Unfortunately I think we are beginning to realise just how much the media are in bed with big business. The recent actions in Australia have had a very biased media coverage, shocking really when there are so many live feed videos of what actually happened. One of the worse offenders - a channel who made a so called documentary news feature about vegan activists turned out to be owned by a billionaire landowner who is heavily involved in cattle/sheep farming.


The corporate media are really bad. This is why I respect the likes of George Monbiot. He works for a newspaper which gives him editorial freedom. He will not compromise his principles & is one of the few journalists who publishes a list of his income in the interests of transparency. Real journalists expose vested interests not be the mouthpiece of a smear campaign.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> It wasn't.
> I didn't even quote you. I was commenting on the thread in general. There's egos on all sides.
> 
> But honestly Rottie, if you felt that some of that hit home, that's on you.


.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> But they are causing extra stress to animals who are already distressed …. that's the bit I don't understand. Why prolong the journey for them anymore? Why try to touch them when the animals have no means of escape? Surely the whole point is the consideration of the animas & not the needs of the person? Fine to show footage, etc & distress but not to add to it.


They stop the trucks for a maximum of 2 minutes if they are lucky and usually offer water to the animals which is gulped down. Given what is to come I don't think a couple of minutes of hold up makes a lot of difference to the distress they will be facing beyond the walls of the slaughterhouse. I couldn't do it but I do understand what they are trying to achieve.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> Rescuing the pigs gets noticed though. So I agree, kinder to that individual to euthanise, but from a publicity standpoint rescuing peppa pig might just be a catalyst for someone to change. Putting their hands in to comfort the animals, even if it terrifies them, shows that they don't want to harm us and gives them a face.
> 
> The animals shouldn't be in the situation they're in, so I'm not going to be annoyed with people doing the 'wrong' thing whether it's for ego, Instagram, or compassion.
> 
> ...


Hope it goes well at the vet and Elles is OK.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Here is a short video of the type of activism @Cleo38 is talking about for anyone who doesn't know.

WARNING Upsetting footage but not graphic.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> What I really don't understand is people who disrupt the transportations & take photos of them sticking their hands in to 'comfort' the animals being transported for slaughter ….. surely this is just another stressor for them & why would anyone want to do that …. except for the FB pic to depict them as some sort of saint





Cleo38 said:


> But they are causing extra stress to animals who are already distressed …. that's the bit I don't understand. Why prolong the journey for them anymore? Why try to touch them when the animals have no means of escape? Surely the whole point is the consideration of the animas & not the needs of the person? Fine to show footage, etc & distress but not to add to it.


Arent these kinds of attitudes part of the problem though??? (I dont mean to get at anybody by saying this!). Its just wasted sentiment because caring about animals whilst they are on their way to be slaughtered doesnt prevent their slaughter. Like using terms such as humane slaughter, free range, etc doesnt mean the animal is going to be happy to be killed.
Why not be offended by the animals who are barely adults being bred in cramped dirty conditions, crammed into lorries then needlessly murdered rather then a few hippy vegans taking photos of it on their camera phones?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Arent these kinds of attitudes part of the problem though??? (I dont mean to get at anybody by saying this!). Its just wasted sentiment because caring about animals whilst they are on their way to be slaughtered doesnt prevent their slaughter. Like using terms such as humane slaughter, free range, etc doesnt mean the animal is going to be happy to be killed.
> Why not be offended by the animals who are barely adults being bred in cramped dirty conditions, crammed into lorries then needlessly murdered rather then a few hippy vegans taking photos of it on their camera phones?


Now I'm going to come down on Cleo's side. 

Cleo said 'fine to show footage etc & distress but not add to it'.

Are you arguing that it's ok to add to the animals' distress? I wouldn't think so, unless it's absolutely necessary. Cleo is clearly on the side of the animals and considering them in the post. 'Fine to show footage etc & distress'. But not add to it.

Explain why it's not adding to it, or why it's necessary, but I don't think you guys read the post properly.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> Are you arguing that it's ok to add to the animals' distress?
> 
> Explain why it's not adding to it, or why it's necessary, but I don't think you guys read the post properly.


Im arguing that putting a few camera phones in front on them is substantially less distressing for the animals then having their throats cut or being herding into a gas chamber. I think its necessary because some people either dont know that this is how their food gets to the table or will continue to live in wilful ignorance for as long as they can unless people combat that ignorance with evidence they cant ignore.

See here is part of the problem....I dont think _you_ guys read the post properly!:Hilarious


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Hope it goes well at the vet and Elles is OK.


Thanks. I feel better now I'm back. It was a new vet checking her. Her wound is fine. He checked her chip without me asking, thought her teeth had been cleaned at the same time (they hadn't, she's raw fed) and recommended titre testing as an option instead of just vaccinating. I'm impressed.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Im arguing that putting a few camera phones in front on them is substantially less distressing for the animals then having their throats cut or being herding into a gas chamber. I think its necessary because some people either dont know that this is how their food gets to the table or will continue to live in wilful ignorance for as long as they can unless people combat that ignorance with evidence they cant ignore.
> 
> See here is part of the problem....I dont think _you_ guys read the post properly!:Hilarious


But Cleo agreed with the phones! The pictures and footage Cleo agreed with. It's putting your hands in to stroke animals that are terrified of people that was being questioned.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Elles said:


> But Cleo agreed with the phones! The pictures and footage Cleo agreed with. It's putting your hands in to stroke animals that are terrified of people that was being questioned.


Thanks, & yes that's exactly what I meant. I completely understand filming, etc but holding up vehicles & sticking hands &/or phones in to animals in transit will be incredibly stressful simply for the fact they cannot move away despite the good intentions.

It may only be for 'a few moments' but anyone who has experienced extreme stress will know that even seconds will impact. And whilst it may be less distressing than the actual slaughter it is still distressing so why add to it? Not sure if anyone has read anything by Temple Grandin regarding moving/loading/transporting livestock, it's really interesting & although it's not getting away from the fact the animals will be killed eventually it is about making the situations less stressful for them … surely that's got to be a good thing.

Also, glad Elles is ok as well. My older GSD has been to a specialist this week so have been experiencing my own stress about that!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> But Cleo agreed with the phones! The pictures and footage Cleo agreed with. It's putting your hands in to stroke animals that are terrified of people that was being questioned.


To be fair I read the posts to mean she didn't agree with the whole idea of stopping the trucks at all rather than just the stroking of the animals that she didn't agree with. Most of the footage I've watched shows the activists just putting their hands to the gaps in the lorries and pigs actively snuffling their hands. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant @Cleo38. When I first watched some of the footage of these actions I did wonder what the point was in it. I think its James Aspey who explains it really well saying if you can take photographs of their faces, concentrate on the individual rather than the whole group - they find those shots really effective when doing Cubes of Truth as it seems to bring home to people how this individual is going to die because of our taste buds and insatiable greed for bacon. Not everyone will agree with every form of activism but Cubes of Truth get an awful lot of people going vegan on the spot and thousands of sign ups to Challenge 22.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> To be fair I read the posts to mean she didn't agree with the whole idea of stopping the trucks at all rather than just the stroking of the animals that she didn't agree with. Most of the footage I've watched shows the activists just putting their hands to the gaps in the lorries and pigs actively snuffling their hands. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant @Cleo38. When I first watched some of the footage of these actions I did wonder what the point was in it. I think its James Aspey who explains it really well saying if you can take photographs of their faces, concentrate on the individual rather than the whole group - they find those shots really effective when doing Cubes of Truth as it seems to bring home to people how this individual is going to die because of our taste buds and insatiable greed for bacon. Not everyone will agree with every form of activism but Cubes of Truth get an awful lot of people going vegan on the spot and thousands of sign ups to Challenge 22.


I agree rph, it gives the animals a face and I do think it necessary. It always has been. What I didn't like was you guys having a go at someone who is concerned about the animals, believes they are distressed about it and whose post was concern for the poor beasts that are going through enough already, without well meaning onlookers and protestors making it even worse.

I do see Cleo's point, but although I personally don't agree with it, because I do think it's necessary, I think it's a valid concern.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> I agree rph, it gives the animals a face and I do think it necessary. It always has been. What I didn't like was you guys having a go at someone who is concerned about the animals, believes they are distressed about it and whose post was concern for the poor beasts that are going through enough already, without well meaning onlookers and protestors making it even worse.
> 
> I do see Cleo's point, but although I personally don't agree with it, because I do think it's necessary, I think it's a valid concern.


Sorry Elles but I'm not sure how you interpret these comments as me having a go at Cleo

My first answer on the subject

"They do it to bear witness and to get footage of the faces of the animals so that people who pay for the treatment and slaughter get to see the individuals involved. They are not trying to be a saint but to show people their victims."

My second answer on the subject

"They stop the trucks for a maximum of 2 minutes if they are lucky and usually offer water to the animals which is gulped down. Given what is to come I don't think a couple of minutes of hold up makes a lot of difference to the distress they will be facing beyond the walls of the slaughterhouse. I couldn't do it but I do understand what they are trying to achieve."

I did find this part of her first post on the subject a bit surprising

"why would anyone want to do that …. except for the FB pic to depict them as some sort of saint "

but I'm not sure how my comments would be viewed as "having a go".


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Thanks, & yes that's exactly what I meant. I completely understand filming, etc but holding up vehicles & sticking hands &/or phones in to animals in transit will be incredibly stressful simply for the fact they cannot move away despite the good intentions.
> 
> It may only be for 'a few moments' but anyone who has experienced extreme stress will know that even seconds will impact. And whilst it may be less distressing than the actual slaughter it is still distressing so why add to it? Not sure if anyone has read anything by Temple Grandin regarding moving/loading/transporting livestock, it's really interesting & although it's not getting away from the fact the animals will be killed eventually it is about making the situations less stressful for them … surely that's got to be a good thing.
> 
> Also, glad Elles is ok as well. My older GSD has been to a specialist this week so have been experiencing my own stress about that!


Thank you for clarifying. They have to hold up the vehicles, how could they take the photographs and offer water if the truck went whizzing past them? I'm totally gob smacked that we are discussing activists adding a couple of minutes stress (which I'm not convinced they are) to offer water, take some photos and bear witness being wrong yet we are not discussing what has happened to those pigs their whole lives, the long journeys they have often been on in cramped conditions with no access to water and what a disgraceful death they are about to endure


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thank you for clarifying. They have to hold up the vehicles, how could they take the photographs and offer water if the truck went whizzing past them? I'm totally gob smacked that we are discussing activists adding a couple of minutes stress (which I'm not convinced they are) to offer water, take some photos and bear witness being wrong yet we are not discussing what has happened to those pigs their whole lives, the long journeys they have often been on in cramped conditions with no access to water and what a disgraceful death they are about to endure


I really don't understand …. the plight of the animals involved can be discussed, criticised, etc without adding to the stress. There are plenty of pictures now that have been gathered so why continue? The fact that it is acknowledged that these journeys are horrific for them should surely be enough to not cause any further delays to them.

For me it is not about using these animals any more than they already have been but more about not causing any further distress to them.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I really don't understand …. the plight of the animals involved can be discussed, criticised, etc without adding to the stress. There are plenty of pictures now that have been gathered so why continue? The fact that it is acknowledged that these journeys are horrific for them should surely be enough to not cause any further delays to them.
> 
> For me it is not about using these animals any more than they already have been but more about not causing any further distress to them.


They have to keep taking the photos so that they are current and relevant.

I'm involved in a couple of pressure groups and people do dismiss older pictures and articles as not being up to date and not happening these days unfortunately, so we have to keep posting current images to show, yes it is today and yes it still happens.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

We are discussing it, because it’s how a lot of people think about it and what people think is important.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I really don't understand …. the plight of the animals involved can be discussed, criticised, etc without adding to the stress. There are plenty of pictures now that have been gathered so why continue? The fact that it is acknowledged that these journeys are horrific for them should surely be enough to not cause any further delays to them.
> 
> For me it is not about using these animals any more than they already have been but more about not causing any further distress to them.


Why continue? to carry on showing consumers the faces of the animals who die every single day. To suggest that people who put themselves through the upset of bearing witness to that are doing so just so they can post photos on facebook to depict themselves as some sort of saint is actually quite offensive. Without those activists we wouldn't have half the knowledge we have now about what goes on behind closed doors so I think they need every bit of our encouragement not criticism.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why continue? to carry on showing consumers the faces of the animals who die every single day. To suggest that people who put themselves through the upset of bearing witness to that are doing so just so they can post photos on facebook to depict themselves as some sort of saint is actually quite offensive. Without those activists we wouldn't have half the knowledge we have now about what goes on behind closed doors so I think they need every bit of our encouragement not criticism.


But average 'consumers' usually don't see these pics & even if they were to am still not convinced they are justified.

My opinion is different to yours. I have seen plenty of posts on FB groups that brings me to question the motives of some of the people involved. Most wil have the best of intentions I agree but as I said, the animals stress at that point is what is most important & should not be made any worse by trying to prove a point. I was involved in AR groups years ag & left because of ego's, it will always be an issue in any type of activism tho … IMO obviously.

Maybe you feel my opinion is offensive, that's up to you but I don't agree with what is being carried out so will say so. Some posts I have seen on FB of these demonstrations have been very questionable. Criticism is something that surely should be a right of everyone …. I am not going to support anything I disagree with regardless of the intentions.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> But average 'consumers' usually don't see these pics & even if they were to am still not convinced they are justified.
> 
> My opinion is different to yours. I have seen plenty of posts on FB groups that brings me to question the motives of some of the people involved. Most wil have the best of intentions I agree but as I said, the animals stress at that point is what is most important & should not be made any worse by trying to prove a point. I was involved in AR groups years ag & left because of ego's, it will always be an issue in any type of activism tho … IMO obviously.
> 
> Maybe you feel my opinion is offensive, that's up to you but I don't agree with what is being carried out so will say so. Some posts I have seen on FB of these demonstrations have been very questionable. Criticism is something that surely should be a right of everyone …. I am not going to support anything I disagree with regardless of the intentions.


The photos are seen by lots of "average consumers" demonstrations outside supermarkets - inside as well and inside restaurants and on cubes of truth and of course all across social media. I find it such a shame that many quality advocates end up leaving because they get demoralised by the infighting and by other activists turning on them because they are too this or too that. I'm not sure I always follow your logic given your earlier comments about dog food but I'm going to leave it there before we fall out.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The photos are seen by lots of "average consumers" demonstrations outside supermarkets - inside as well and inside restaurants and on cubes of truth and of course all across social media. I find it such a shame that many quality advocates end up leaving because they get demoralised by the infighting and by other activists turning on them because they are too this or too that. * I'm not sure I always follow your logic given your earlier comments about dog food* *but I'm going to leave it there before we fall out*.


Eh?! What's that supposed to mean? Jesus, are people not allowed to have different opinions anymore?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Eh?! What's that supposed to mean? Jesus, are people not allowed to have different opinions anymore?


In a word. No.

Opinions appear to be the right of the 'entitled' few.


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