# muslims



## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

any other muslims on here waiting till they can eat and drink?
two hours to go and my stomach is screaming lol


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lol eat anyway


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I've fasted before but am not Muslim. You'll get through  Isn't it Ramadan, and don't you fast during daylight for the entire month?


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

Oh no! not long to go


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2013)

We have a bit to wait to eat until we eat...its our normal time for tea though, and yes...i'm bloody starving!!!  Although the no drinking...i'm not sure i could manage in this heat wihout some water or something during the day...


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I have got SO much respect to you & all the muslims I know for doing this, there's no way I could manage!

Hope you enjoy your food later, how long is it now until Ramadan is over?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Are you allowed water ?


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Nope not a Muslim but still starving


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Are you not allowed to drink? I really can't imagine not drinking until the sun went down! especially when it's hot.....absolutely no way I could do that.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

What is a typical meal you would break the fast with? And do you have to get up extra early to get a meal in before fasting?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I would love to know more about it. Can you explain the reason for fasting, how long does it last and what do you eat once its ok to do so. Do little ones fast as well?


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

Id be disowned by the mosque if I was Muslim.
No way could I fight the urges to eat. Thats just fact.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I don't envy any one fasting.

My mums partner fasts and he hates it, even though he's diabetic he still fasts. There's a lady who comes to my gym who's a muslim doing the fasting too, braver than me.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Spirited said:


> *Id be disowned by the mosque if I was Muslim.*


What do you mean *IF*? :lol:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Friends of mine tell me they actually gain weight during Ramadan because they are so hungry in the evening they eat loads more than usual 
Not long now, Eid is next week isn't it?


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> What do you mean *IF*? :lol:




I aint Muslim. :blink:
Didnt mean to give that impression anyway.
Protestant. We protest everything it seems. Lucky for me that includes fasts.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Spirited said:


> I aint Muslim. :blink:
> Didnt mean to give that impression anyway.
> Protestant. We protest everything it seems. Lucky for me that includes fasts.


What I meant was they would disown you regardless of if you were or weren't :lol::ciappa:


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

My colleague is currently fasting. I just don't know how he manages it - especially with how hot it's been the last few weeks. Plus although we try to be sensitive, in our office food is a big part of the daily conversation, and people are always bringing in treats. I just couldn't do it


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

One of my daughters colleges fainted yesterday, she is fasting and working all day on the hottest day of the year calling customers without somuch as a sip of water just got too much..
She was sent home on sick leave..


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Hopefully OP is just resting and hasn't passed out or anything.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

Toby Tyler said:


> What I meant was they would disown you regardless of if you were or weren't :lol::ciappa:


Be hard to deny breakin the fast when the Imam caught with chocolate all over my face and hands. :001_tongue:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

woops totally forgot to come back on PF last night, was not passed out lol

Ramadan ends next week Eid is either Thursday or Friday 
we don't eat from about 3am till 9am so have to get up early to get a meal in etc
no drinks are allowed which in this weather is challenging



DoodlesRule said:


> I would love to know more about it. Can you explain the reason for fasting, how long does it last and what do you eat once its ok to do so. Do little ones fast as well?


from when a kid reaches puberty it is compulsory to fast, before puberty it is optional
diabettics are excused from fasting but it is a matter of choice I know a lot of diabetics still fasting inc my father
women are excused when they are having their period
if someone is pregnant or breastfeeding they aren't to fast and also if travelling between time zones
smoking and sex is also banned during the fasting hours and for some people swearing, wrong thoughts etc is also not allowed
it is also the time when you should give more, give to charity and the rewards are greater than any other time in the year, giving food to the poor etc

the reasons for fasting are first of all it is one of the pillars of Islam, so is a compulsory part of the religion, it is also a time to become more thankful and increase your connection with Allah, the hunger and thirst we experience during Ramadan days makes us more appreciative, and gives us an understanding of the poor. It also tests your strength and your will power etc
It is something that the prophet said should be done, so it is done.

as for food we eat... anything and everything, typical Asian food for me, samosa, curries etc etc biryani and whatever else really, theres no set rules.
dates are often the first thing we eat though

muslims do tend to put weight on, not only cause of the amount of food ate but also the long hours that we go without eating, our body goes into a starvation mode and then what we do eat is stored as fat


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spirited said:


> Be hard to deny breakin the fast when the Imam caught with chocolate all over my face and hands. :001_tongue:


not all over you though?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> diabetics are excused from fasting but it is a matter of choice


Id be OK then...

BTW, just an observation

I used to do a lot of NHS Ambulance "PTS" taxi work, 7 days a week/365 days a year, I had many Asian patients going for dialysis but I dont remember one going to oncology, I still wonder if the asian diet includes anti-carcinogenic ingredients

I eat lots of curries just in case.............


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)




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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> woops totally forgot to come back on PF last night, was not passed out lol
> 
> Ramadan ends next week Eid is either Thursday or Friday
> we don't eat from about 3am till 9am so have to get up early to get a meal in etc
> ...


Thanks for posting. I love to hear about different traditions. It's also nice to have the perspective of a Muslim here on the forum. I think it helps to reassure those who may think otherwise in this crazy world that not all Muslims are radical Islamists.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> Thanks for posting. I love to hear about different traditions. It's also nice to have the perspective of a Muslim here on the forum. I think it helps to reassure those who may think otherwise in this crazy world that not all Muslims are radical Islamists.


there are people I know that assume muslim = terrorist and crap like that but tbh a true muslim would never kill in the name of islam its just a lot of people are uneducated about islam - muslims included and the ones that have done terrorist attacks are usually very misguided muslims


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## SpotOn (May 7, 2013)

Even I learnt something new on this thread. My dads side of the family are Muslim, and fast (although I think some of the females have taken a step back from their religion for personal reasons). My dad doesn't anymore, stopped after his dad died 12 years ago.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

SpotOn said:


> Even I learnt something new on this thread. My dads side of the family are Muslim, and fast (although I think some of the females have taken a step back from their religion for personal reasons). My dad doesn't anymore, stopped after his dad died 12 years ago.


yeah my dads the muslim, my mum converted when they got married and then converted back to Christianity when they divorced so I was raised with both religions and boy was it confusing lol


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> a true muslim would never kill in the name of islam its just a lot of people are uneducated about islam - muslims included and the ones that have done terrorist attacks are usually very misguided muslims


When I was in college I had a few Muslim friends. It was a different world at the time but there were still prejudices even back then.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> When I was in college I had a few Muslim friends. It was a different world at the time but there were still prejudices even back then.


ohh I started year 7 the year after 9/11 so everyone hated muslims I used to get the likes of "your dads bin laden" and really petty things like that even though a lot of muslims also died in 9/11 including the father of a muslim girl I went to school with. I guess people just like to hate on something otherwise they aren't happy lol


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ohh I started year 7 the year after 9/11 so everyone hated muslims I used to get the likes of "your dads bin laden" and really petty things like that even though a lot of muslims also died in 9/11 including the father of a muslim girl I went to school with. I guess people just like to hate on something otherwise they aren't happy lol


I wish people wouldn't be so small minded.

Al Qaeda is to Muslims, is the what the KKK is to Christians. Hitler said what he was doing was in the name of God!

I hope your fasting is going ok. Its lovely of you to share info about it.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> woops totally forgot to come back on PF last night, was not passed out lol
> 
> Ramadan ends next week Eid is either Thursday or Friday
> we don't eat from about 3am till 9am so have to get up early to get a meal in etc
> no drinks are allowed which in this weather is challenging


I am not muslim but friends of mine are and they are able to eat from a particular time on an evening, the time to eat an evening meal changes on a regular basis.

We had to book a meal at a set time which was when my friend could eat, it might have been 9:00pm, I know it was late I could have eaten the chair legs I was so hungry by that time. Like a twit I didn't have much for lunch that day knowing we were have a slap up meal.  She broke her fast of the day with a glass of water I can't remember if there was anything else she had to do before she ate her meal.

I was surprised to learn that families get up through the night for a home made meal.

Another friend told me that if the fast is broken, they have to make it up by fasting at a later date.

I think you have made a typo not sure I think you mean 3:00 in the morning until 9:00 in the evening. That would make sense why we had to have a late meal.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ohh I started year 7 the year after 9/11 so everyone hated muslims I used to get the likes of "your dads bin laden" and really petty things like that even though a lot of muslims also died in 9/11 including the father of a muslim girl I went to school with. I guess people just like to hate on something otherwise they aren't happy lol


This is revealing my age  I was a freshman in college during the Iranian revolution. It was awful for those students, everyone who looked Mideastern was subject to hatred.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

yep its true if we miss a fast then we make up for it after Ramadan it was my 21st birthday 5 days into Ramadan this year and I couldn't eat till nearly 10pm lol but I guess there are people that barely have one meal a day so im definitely appreciative of my food


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> This is revealing my age  I was a freshman in college during the Iranian revolution. It was awful for those students, everyone who looked Mideastern was subject to hatred.


i wasn't even conceived then  
my dads friend was Iranian and he was tortured by Saddam Hussein minions and got granted asylum to the UK, i think that might have been around the same time but not sure but hes been in the uk like 25 years now


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## SpotOn (May 7, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> yeah my dads the muslim, my mum converted when they got married and then converted back to Christianity when they divorced so I was raised with both religions and boy was it confusing lol


lol One side is deeply Muslim, other side is deeply Catholic here...! Both sides of the family disliked each other for their religion 

I was bullied at (secondary) school a few times.... Apparently if your tanned/Asian looking you must be Islamic, eat curry all the time, and your related to terrorists, and speak multiple languages :skep: :mad2:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

SpotOn said:


> lol One side is deeply Muslim, other side is deeply Catholic here...! Both sides of the family disliked each other for their religion
> 
> I was bullied at (secondary) school a few times.... Apparently if your tanned/Asian looking you must be Islamic, eat curry all the time, and your related to terrorists, and speak multiple languages :skep: :mad2:


i know exactly how you feel there! although i do love my curries lol but yeah people used to ask me to speak another language and never used to believe it when i said i can only speak English :/
and when i used to go on visits to Pakistan people assumed i was getting married off because someone doesn't just go to a place like that to visit family.
crazyyy


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

Maybe I am going to get flamed for this but why do you allow a religion to dictate what you can and cant do ? Starving yourself all day then binging isn't good for the body or mind.

I used to live in a very muslim orientated area and just could never get my head round why during ramadam they starved all day and had to carry on and do a days work.

I don't follow any religion because I will not be brainwashed into thinking if I don't do such and such I will go to hell or whatever. My life is mine and religion will never dictate to me.

Just my thoughts.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

your a stronger person than me! I struggle an hour without food lol


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

i would try and explain but words fail when trying to explain how faith makes someone feel
everyone is entitled to their own beliefs etc these just happen to be mine
i know plenty people who say they are muslim but do not fast
it might be compulsory in my religion but i could choose not to do it but until you have that feeling you wont know why billions of people around the world choose to do it rather than ignore it

you say you don't follow a religion but i bet you still celebrate xmas and easter


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## SpotOn (May 7, 2013)

I don't think all people who are religious are brainwashed. I have grown up surrounded by religion (half my family have a job role in a church of some kind!). 

I think for some people it is a way to meet like minded people (much like a club or society), for some it is a haven from the real world, for others it may be for hope and guidance, some it is tradition (ie. Going to church every Sunday).


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

we all choose how much of which ever religion we want to take on. 

I was Christened as a baby but i dont go to church. I celebrate Easter and Christmas. I dont know if there is a god or even a Jesus but its nice to think theres something up there, somewhere to go when we die maybe? Who knows....i told my nephews i will let them know when i die lol


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> i would try and explain but words fail when trying to explain how faith makes someone feel
> everyone is entitled to their own beliefs etc these just happen to be mine
> i know plenty people who say they are muslim but do not fast
> it might be compulsory in my religion but i could choose not to do it but until you have that feeling you wont know why billions of people around the world choose to do it rather than ignore it
> ...


I am atheist and celebrate holidays as times to see family and friends and celebrate that rather than focus on any religious meaning 

Most Christian holidays are rooted in pagan holidays anyway!

Each to their own though, I have friends of varying faiths- Christian, JW, Muslim, Hindu... I enjoy learning the theology to be honest

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

i didn't fast the last 2 years, i was dating a hindu boy, i wasn't following islam any other time of the year and i felt hypocritical and refused to fast as it would have just been for show 

im still young - 21 i have made mistakes that my religion don't agree with but this year i have made changes and i have made peace with my past and im back on the religious road, and this time it feels more real as it isn't just to keep my father happy etc

and i can honestly say, the feeling i have had since finding my religion again has been quite amazing, and especially during Ramadan its a feeling that cant be expressed


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2013)

witchyone said:


> Starving yourself all day then binging isn't good for the body or mind.


http://www.petforums.co.uk/health/318014-my-5-2-diet-journey.html

Depends on your point of view...


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> you say you don't follow a religion but i bet you still celebrate xmas and easter


Nope!

Fireside tales of virgins having kids and corpses coming back to life belong in the distant past when superstition and fear ruled the lives of the peasantry.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

May I ask why Muslims seem to dislike dogs so much? There is an old lady who screamed and flapped at mine when they went near her (retrieving the ball, not going for her!) and people cross the road to avoid them. They're springers, not big or scary


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> May I ask why Muslims seem to dislike dogs so much? There is an old lady who screamed and flapped at mine when they went near her (retrieving the ball, not going for her!) and people cross the road to avoid them. They're springers, not big or scary


Seen as unclean iirc...


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> May I ask why Muslims seem to dislike dogs so much? There is an old lady who screamed and flapped at mine when they went near her (retrieving the ball, not going for her!) and people cross the road to avoid them. They're springers, not big or scary


lol that's not really a muslim thing, the prophet himself is actually said to have really liked all animals etc but its just a case of not knowing dogs, i used to be terrified of dogs because my dad said they was viscous and his dad told him etc with my family, over in Pakistan dogs are feral, not owned, and will attack and will kill etc and that is passed down the generations and basically imbedded in your brain

i do know Pakistani people that are fine with dogs some are absolutely terrified same with cats etc its just how they are brought up

although i do think in islam its prohibited to own a dog, its one of them vague passages in the Quran that people have interpreted as they are banned in islam this might also have something to do with it


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

cinnamontoast said:


> May I ask why Muslims seem to dislike dogs so much? There is an old lady who screamed and flapped at mine when they went near her (retrieving the ball, not going for her!) and people cross the road to avoid them. They're springers, not big or scary


I think in a lot of other countries there are a lot of stray dogs and if you got bit there is a real threat of rabies.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

witchyone said:


> Maybe I am going to get flamed for this but why do you allow a religion to dictate what you can and cant do ? Starving yourself all day then binging isn't good for the body or mind.
> 
> I used to live in a very muslim orientated area and just could never get my head round why during ramadam they starved all day and had to carry on and do a days work.
> 
> ...


Fasting is not unique to Islam, every religion has included it in different forms


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

We could learn a lot from Islam



> *It is forbidden to beat animals unnecessarily, to brand them on the face, or to allow them to fight each other for human entertainment. "They must not be mutilated while they are alive."*
> 
> Muhammad is also reported (Narrated by Ibn Omar and Abdallah bin Al-As) to have said: "There is no man who kills even a sparrow or anything smaller, without its deserving it, but God will question him about it [on the judgment day]," and "Whoever is kind to the creatures of God is kind to himself."


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm an atheist, but I celebrate Christmas because it is part of my culture (it pre dates Christianity). I have issues with some faces of religion, and anyone trying to convert people p*sses me right off! But the average person of any religion I have ever met is just trying to live a good life. It doesn't hurt me, live and let live, I say. 
Besides, it's interesting 
My Muslim friends mostly enjoy loads more celebrations, they join in with Christmas and Easter as well as their own religious feasts. I can't think of a better example of tolerance in these times.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> Fasting is not unique to Islam, every religion has included it in different forms


My very catholic Dad fasted every Lent until ill health (and my Mum) stopped him. Not just "giving up chocolate" either...


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

I couldnt for the life of me fast ... id be tormented all the time by the image of that black forest gateau and fresh cream sitting in the fridge (Darn it now I want to go get some , lol)

Even though im not religious I have huge respect for anyone who truly believes in and follows their religion , to have that much faith must feel amazing and very comforting


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

witchyone said:


> ...why do you allow a religion to dictate what you can and cant do? Starving yourself all day then binging isn't good for the body or mind.


It sounds as if OP has made a conscious choice. She is not allowing a religion to dictate what she does, she is following the tenets of what she believes.

I am not religious at all myself, a recovering Catholic :biggrin:. I remember fasting on Fridays and during Lent. It wasn't a total fast, but the concept was basically the same.

Fasting actually is good for the mind.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

I know muslim friends of mine who will fast during the day and between the hours of 9 and 3 they will go out clubbing, drink alcohol and be having sex, while their parents think they have gone to bed or something
these so called religious people annoy the hell out of me cause pretending to be religious is so much more worse than not being religious at all


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I know muslim friends of mine who will fast during the day and between the hours of 9 and 3 they will go out clubbing, drink alcohol and be having sex, while their parents think they have gone to bed or something
> these so called religious people annoy the hell out of me cause pretending to be religious is so much more worse than not being religious at all


I understand where you are coming from regarding your friends behaviour.....

but could  it be perhaps , they want to lead this life , having fun , sex, booze etc... yet are scared to go against their parents wishes ? simply of the fear of repercussion ....


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> May I ask why Muslims seem to dislike dogs so much? There is an old lady who screamed and flapped at mine when they went near her (retrieving the ball, not going for her!) and people cross the road to avoid them. They're springers, not big or scary


That is a question that I would also like an answer to too


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> I think in a lot of other countries there are a lot of stray dogs and if you got bit there is a real threat of rabies.


I don't think that is the reason, but can understand your belief

it is not allowed for you to keep a dog at home for a purpose other than hunting or guarding the house (watchdogs). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: "Whoever keeps a dog save for hunting or for guarding crops or cattle will lose one large measure (qirat) of his reward each day." (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

When our eldest was little his best friend's family were practising Muslims, and I'll never forget their family party we got invited too to mark the end of Ramadan. They had family members come as far as London to celebrate 

It was fantastic, everybody treated us like their own  And the food was just amazing! 

Went down better than the Birthday party the boys got invited too  When we went to pick them up Shireen asked the little boys Mum what her son had eaten.... The mum answered he'd had hotdogs and sausage rolls

Oooops, Shireen was brilliant, just brushed it off, and vowed not to tell her Husband, ooops! She didn't follow her faith strictly, but her Husband did.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

MissShelley said:


> When our eldest was little his best friend's family were practising Muslims, and I'll never forget their family party we got invited too to mark the end of Ramadan. They had family members come as far as London to celebrate
> 
> It was fantastic, everybody treated us like their own  And the food was just amazing!
> 
> ...


Oh dear! Definitely a bit of a slip up there! My friend once found a chunk of bacon in a cheese and onion pasty from Greggs, luckily she was alright about it but wasn't at all happy with Greggs - she won't go there any more! It is bad really to say we live in a town with a very high muslim population, you'd think they would take a little bit more care! It did give us a good laugh though when she was being interrogated by all her friends on what it tasted like, all she could say was "it tasted like something burnt, it was horrible" :lol: bless her!


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Must be tough, how would it be even possible in the north European countries!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Denmark fasts 21 hours of the day due to how their sun light hours are :O

as for accidentally having piggy products, my school knowingly served a bunch of us bacon products oh there was such uproar

and someone once gave my dad a drink saying it was just coke but it had alcohol in and they thought it would be funny... he made himself puke to get it back up


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I know muslim friends of mine who will fast during the day and between the hours of 9 and 3 they will go out clubbing, drink alcohol and be having sex, while their parents think they have gone to bed or something
> these so called religious people annoy the hell out of me cause pretending to be religious is so much more worse than not being religious at all


I used to chauffeur an Orthodox Jew about many moons ago..Our day would start calling in a cafe where I would pick up a huge bacon sandwich for him.

On his sabbath when he was supposed to walk to the Synagogue, I used to drop him just round the corner out of sight so he could be seen walking into the place.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

I think it's ather silly putting your health at risk by not eating and drinking especially in the recent hot weather. It's already been mentioned that someone was taken home from work sick after she fainted through lack of food/drink. There was a prog on the telly recently where a policeman was persuing a youth but had to give up the chase because of exhaustion caused by lack of food and drink. The youth got away prob to break the law again. How many more work hours have been lost and how much has it cost the NHS to treat these people. As for not harming animals what it halal all about.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

foxiesummer said:


> I think it's ather silly putting your health at risk by not eating and drinking especially in the recent hot weather. It's already been mentioned that someone was taken home from work sick after she fainted through lack of food/drink. There was a prog on the telly recently where a policeman was persuing a youth but had to give up the chase because of exhaustion caused by lack of food and drink. The youth got away prob to break the law again. How many more work hours have been lost and how much has it cost the NHS to treat these people. As for not harming animals what it halal all about.


Rather flimsy arguments, most criminals caught by cops get bail or not charged so get out the same day anyway, illegal immigrants stopped by cops get told to report to immigration, then do a runner...

as for Halal, well most animal slaughtering is borderline cruel....what about veal production and factory hens egg production?

Theres a lot of things i WISH didnt happen but will continue


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

MissShelley said:


> Went down better than the Birthday party the boys got invited too  When we went to pick them up Shireen asked the little boys Mum what her son had eaten.... The mum answered he'd had hotdogs and sausage rolls


I bet there wasnt much pork in either though...lol


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

No I don't celebrate Christmas or Easter.These are so called Christian festivals but as has been stated already they were origionally pagan festivals that were taken over by Christians. I think you will find most if not all of our traditions come from pagan times. Paganism was around long before Christianity.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

ok so I didn't start this thread to be told by people that my religion and what is about is stupid and harmful etc, you guys are entitled to your opinion fair enough but please refrain from mocking it
Ramadan is an amazing time and muslims look forward to it through out the whole year as it is such an amazing time spiritually 
and it is very rare that someone actually faints because of it, if you eat and drink the right stuff in the mornings you're usually fine 
I know people that still go the gym whilst fasting and are fine

and regarding halal, in all religions certain animals are put on earth for human consumption, islam is no different, when our animals are killed they are killed in the name of Allah which blessed them, they are killed for us to eat, please don't act like Islam is the only religion to eat meet. 

what the Quran says however is that it is a huge huge crime to kill an animal for any other purpose or to harm it, in some more strict countries animal abuse used to be punished quite severely.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Well S&L, I for one have found your thread interesting and informative much more educational about another culture than the usual rubbish you get to read in the press.

If I understand it correctly you don't go without food and water for days on end there are set, if somewhat unusual, times daily when you can eat. I think the explanation that you are more humble and grateful by fasting is an example lots of us could do with following


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok so I didn't start this thread to be told by people that my religion and what is about is stupid and harmful etc, you guys are entitled to your opinion fair enough but please refrain from mocking it
> Ramadan is an amazing time and muslims look forward to it through out the whole year as it is such an amazing time spiritually
> and it is very rare that someone actually faints because of it, if you eat and drink the right stuff in the mornings you're usually fine
> I know people that still go the gym whilst fasting and are fine
> ...


I didn't say islam is the only religion to eat meat, my argument is the way they are killed. If I PTS my dog like that I would be prosecuted.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you must have a lot of willpower, especially not drinking in this heat. Is it Wednesday that the period ends?

I have a few muslim friends but only a couple acknowledge this period & will fast. As you say, as long as people eat at the correct times they will be fine (if not just suffering from hunger pangs!) & old & ill people are exempt anyway so it's not 'dangerous' as such.

I would be interested to know, how do you feel this period has helped you?



foxiesummer said:


> I didn't say islam is the only religion to eat meat, my argument is the way they are killed. If I PTS my dog like that I would be prosecuted.


But having your dog pts in a non halal slaughter house would be ok - of course it wouldn't! What a silly statement


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

foxiesummer said:


> I didn't say islam is the only religion to eat meat, my argument is the way they are killed. If I PTS my dog like that I would be prosecuted.


What a silly argument. You wouldnt put your dog down in the same manner as slaughtered cows, pigs or chicken either, would you?!


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

foxiesummer said:


> I didn't say islam is the only religion to eat meat, my argument is the way they are killed. If I PTS my dog like that I would be prosecuted.


I am really sorry to say as having been and witnessed it, we leave alot to be desired of in our slaughter of meat.I have also found this thread very informative thanks.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> woops totally forgot to come back on PF last night, was not passed out lol
> 
> Ramadan ends next week Eid is either Thursday or Friday
> we don't eat from about 3am till 9am so have to get up early to get a meal in etc
> ...


It is similar to our lent when properly done. We are supposed to sacrifice, give alms and fast and pray.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

foxiesummer said:


> I didn't say islam is the only religion to eat meat, my argument is the way they are killed. If I PTS my dog like that I would be prosecuted.


yeah and the non islamic way of slaughtering isnt exactly perfect either, there isnt a humane way, it might be a different way of slaughtering but they are still killed arent they?!
and dogs are not animals that we consume so i dont really see the relevence in your statement your dog wouldnt be slaughtered for food in a halal slaughter house or a non halal place 



Cleo38 said:


> I would be interested to know, how do you feel this period has helped you?


its helped me in several ways tbh, it has tested me as a person too as i have never ever fasted such long hours it does make me realise how commited and strong i can be if i put my mind to it. Ive also got more of clarity and sense of whats important, usually i can be quite selfish so thats something i have been working on this month as Ramadan is a time when you feel most able to change yourself.

We are most likely celebrating Eid on Thursday which means Ramadan is over but Islam teaches to hold on to the values you've gained during Ramadan and no go back to bad habbits and stuff. A friend of my dads has used this ramadan to quit smoking after being addicted for 30 years which is amazing


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> there are people I know that assume muslim = terrorist and crap like that but tbh a true muslim would never kill in the name of islam its just a lot of people are uneducated about islam - muslims included and the ones that have done terrorist attacks are usually very misguided muslims


I had a pupil once who told me the house opposite her had been sold to muslims. "they all turned up in their turbans" she said. I pointed out that Muslims do not wear turbans and that they were sikhs and her reply was to shrug and say: all the same. I hate ignorance, so we spent a lot of her driving lesson trying to teach her the difference, but I doubt it sank it.



SpotOn said:


> lol One side is deeply Muslim, other side is deeply Catholic here...! *Both sides of the family disliked each other for their religion *
> I was bullied at (secondary) school a few times.... Apparently if your tanned/Asian looking you must be Islamic, eat curry all the time, and your related to terrorists, and speak multiple languages :skep: :mad2:


Which is against the teachings of Mohammed and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mohammed taught to accept Jews and Christians as "people of the book" because they all follow the same Old Testament. Jesus taught to love and accept everybody.

How these two gentle men managed to found religions which turned into such twisted ideals and hatreds is beyond me.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok so I didn't start this thread to be told by people that my religion and what is about is stupid and harmful etc, you guys are entitled to your opinion fair enough but please refrain from mocking it
> Ramadan is an amazing time and muslims look forward to it through out the whole year as it is such an amazing time spiritually
> and it is very rare that someone actually faints because of it, if you eat and drink the right stuff in the mornings you're usually fine
> I know people that still go the gym whilst fasting and are fine
> ...


People who trully fast for religeous purposes do so to get closer to God (in your case Allah) and the same way some proudly say they are atheist, we should also be proudly to say we are not and not be mocked for it or told we have been brainwashed. 
I´m a catholic and extremely happy with my chocie and my faith, I have researched prayed and studied to be where I am and when I fast or make sacrifices it is to feel closer to God and pull myself away from wordly things. It is a wonderful feeling that I don´t get from anything else.
SH, you don´t have to deffend yourself at all.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

witchyone said:


> No I don't celebrate Christmas or Easter.These are so called Christian festivals but as has been stated already they were origionally pagan festivals that were taken over by Christians. I think you will find most if not all of our traditions come from pagan times. Paganism was around long before Christianity.


A lot of Christian celebrations had their dates moved to coincide with pagan rites, but that doesn't make them any less christian. Christmas was moved to coincide with the winter solstice so as to avoid persecution.

If people understood other peoples religions it would help, but schools do nothing to teach it as an alternative viewpoint. There are different sects within Islam, just as there are different sects within Christianity, and they will fight amongst themselves as well as turning their attention to other religions.

I am spiritualist, and it is extremely annoying when people do not realise that this is in fact an established religion, not a parlour game. We got a lot or stick for all other religions, including other christian religions.

It is not religion which causes trouble, it is man's arrogance at believing he is right and the rest are wrong and trying to enforce his beliefs of everyone else.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Ive been on the fence most my life with religion, I was raised christian.. had it stuffed down my throat lol... I went thru phases of doubt, anger, etc etc but Ive always believed deep down that God is real.
So Shadow dont let anyone make you defend your faith, because as I know its not people that are there for us in the end, its him. I think you are a lovely lady and a breath of fresh air, showing us the other side of a religion held under stigma.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

myshkin said:


> Friends of mine tell me they actually gain weight during Ramadan because they are so hungry in the evening they eat loads more than usual
> Not long now, Eid is next week isn't it?


I grew up in the Middle East & my parents instilled a respect for the traditions of others, even though we were atheist.

I can remember waiting in anticipation for the day Eid-Al-Fitr would start as it meant a day off school & my mum said if we had no school my best friend could sleepover at ours. I can't remember the ins & outs, something to do with sighting the new moon. Sadly, no new moon was sighted that night so school wasn't cancelled


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> my dads friend was Iranian and he was tortured by Saddam Hussein minions


Are you sure ?


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> Ive been on the fence most my life with religion, I was raised christian.. had it stuffed down my throat lol... I went thru phases of doubt, anger, etc etc but Ive always believed deep down that God is real.
> So Shadow dont let anyone make you defend your faith, because as I know its not people that are there for us in the end, its him. I think you are a lovely lady and a breath of fresh air, showing us the other side of a religion held under stigma.


ive never been called a lady  lol


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Cookieandme said:


> Are you sure ?


honeslty nope i was only ever told the story once and i was young at the time but i know he fled due to torture whilst saddam was in power, as he was a different denomination of muslim which Saddam didnt like


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ive never been called a lady  lol


me either


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> honeslty nope i was only ever told the story once and i was young at the time but i know he fled due to torture whilst saddam was in power, as he was a different denomination of muslim which Saddam didnt like


Is that the shieks (sp) or something? cos when I was a teen my neighbour and his family had fled somehow from that as well. But I cant remember what they were called.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I have found this thread very informative. It's also nice to see it hasn't really gone downhill considering the recent atrocities.

What we need to remember as human beings is, that it's not only Muslims that hide behind religion to commit acts of terrorism! These people that do commit acts of terrorism are certainly not religious in any shape or form.

I myself do not believe in any religion, but I do believe there is a god, and try to live my life being thoughtful and caring towards others and try to help people when I can.

Thanks S&L for doing this thread, I admire you greatly:thumbup:


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I know muslim friends of mine who will fast during the day and between the hours of 9 and 3 they will go out clubbing, drink alcohol and be having sex


i must convert.....


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> i must convert.....


lol good luck


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> Ive been on the fence most my life


ouch

:001_wub:

Seriously, I was raised "chapel", but I think Christianity has a lot to answer for, from the Crusades with major atrocities like the slaughter of Moors at Acre, the Inquisition, the suppression and forced conversion of the South American tribes, it does seem a religion which requires pain and suffering for its followers sometimes.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> ouch
> 
> :001_wub:
> 
> Seriously, I was raised "chapel", but I think Christianity has a lot to answer for, from the Crusades with major atrocities like the slaughter of Moors at Acre, the Inquisition, the suppression and forced conversion of the South American tribes, it does seem a religion which requires pain and suffering for its followers sometimes.


same as with Islam its not the religion its the "religious".


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

witchyone said:


> No I don't celebrate Christmas or Easter.These are so called Christian festivals but as has been stated already they were origionally pagan festivals that were taken over by Christians. I think you will find most if not all of our traditions come from pagan times. Paganism was around long before Christianity.


But you could still celebrate.Imbolc, Eoster, Beltane, Litha, Lammas, Samhain and Yule


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

each religion has bad and good things associated with it but the issues we have is that bad things are remembered far more easily than good things, and its the bad things that are portrayed by the media or written about etc and it always seems to outweight the good.
bad things have been done in the name of christianity but doesnt portray the whole entire religion, same with all religions
there are the extremists in each religion who believe they are right and everyone else is wrong and inferior to them which is where problems arise, and the way i see it, it hasnt nothing to do with religion just mans greed and need for control but they use religion and God to justify their actions


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> ouch
> 
> :001_wub:
> 
> Seriously, I was raised "chapel", but I think Christianity has a lot to answer for, from the Crusades with major atrocities like the slaughter of Moors at Acre, the Inquisition, the suppression and forced conversion of the South American tribes, it does seem a religion which requires pain and suffering for its followers sometimes.


That is not religion it is what humans have done with it. If humans were really made in God's image, why don't they have more sense?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> That is not religion it is what humans have done with it. If humans were really made in God's image, why don't they have more sense?


Cos they are human not Gods.


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

I am not religious, never have been and never will. I don't believe there is a God, but that's my opinion. If people want to believe that there is and take comfort from that then ok. What I object to is jehovas (sp) witnesses knocking on my door and trying to force their views on me. Just because I didn't go along with them I was threatened with hell and damnation. Knew there was something missing in my life 

S&L, I wasn't questioning your faith, I was just curious.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

What pees me off is that people pick and choose so some take off the religious holidays but then go out drinking, not fasting, they don't attend a place of worship but still insist on their days off, because they're 'entitled'. 

I cannot bear those who tout religion round the doorsteps like it's a commodity. It's far too personal to do that. 

Religion has a lot to answer for, the Catholics, of which I'm one, have murdered thousands over the years, Queen Mary merrily burned dozens alive. It's still causing issues worldwide, should be banned! I daresay people would still find something over which to fight, however


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

witchyone said:


> I am not religious, never have been and never will. I don't believe there is a God, but that's my opinion. If people want to believe that there is and take comfort from that then ok. What I object to is jehovas (sp) witnesses knocking on my door and trying to force their views on me. Just because I didn't go along with them I was threatened with hell and damnation. Knew there was something missing in my life
> 
> S&L, I wasn't questioning your faith, I was just curious.


I hope you complained to Kingdom Hall. The JWs are not supposed to be believe in hell never mind damnation. Their idea is that when you die, that is that, no afterlife of any kind until the day of judgement when all the good guys will get dug up and inhabit the earth forever.

They also will put your name of their list if you do not want them calling. You just have to ring Kingdom Hall and tell them.

Certainly they should not be threatening anyone, and their reason for inflicting themselves on others is that it is part of their religion to "spread the word".


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> honeslty nope i was only ever told the story once and i was young at the time but i know he fled due to torture whilst saddam was in power, as he was a different denomination of muslim which Saddam didnt like


I don't believe Saddam had any influence in Iran.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I hope you complained to Kingdom Hall. The JWs are not supposed to be believe in hell never mind damnation. Their idea is that when you die, that is that, no afterlife of any kind until the day of judgement when all the good guys will get dug up and inhabit the earth forever.
> 
> They also will put your name of their list if you do not want them calling. You just have to ring Kingdom Hall and tell them.
> 
> Certainly they should not be threatening anyone, and their reason for inflicting themselves on others is that it is part of their religion to "spread the word".


They used to annoy the wotsits out of me.....but they did stop calling after I politely asked them not to call again, in fairness.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> ouch
> 
> :001_wub:
> 
> Seriously, I was raised "chapel", but I think Christianity has a lot to answer for, from the Crusades with major atrocities like the slaughter of Moors at Acre, the Inquisition, the suppression and forced conversion of the South American tribes, it does seem a religion which requires pain and suffering for its followers sometimes.


There was no God in their ear telling them to do all those things, barring the odd schizophrenic teenager, it's not the religion that does damage it's the people involved. People have fought wars and enslaved and massacred in the name of their gods almost since we invented religion. No one religion, except possibly Buddhism I'm not sure, is immune from that.

Jehovah's witnesses should go away if you tell them to and you can call up the nearest Kingdom Hall and ask to be taken off their list. I hate preachy people too whether they're religious or the I'm so superior because I'm an atheist types.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Knock KnocK, whose there?


Hi, we are Jehova's witnesses


I didnt know he had had an accident! bum bum


Scare em, invite them in, watch their faces


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cookieandme said:


> I don't believe Saddam had any influence in Iran.


I don't know if Saddam was in power then, but there was a war between Iraq and Iran. Perhaps the gentleman in question was a prisoner of that war, in which case it would follow that he would have been mistreated.



Colliebarmy said:


> Knock KnocK, whose there?
> 
> Hi, we are Jehova's witnesses
> 
> ...


That is how I got rid of them actually. I used to ask them in, get out all my books about religious history, and "discuss" with them for hours. Even lent them my books about the Turin Shroud. Then one day I looked out and saw them deliberately avoiding my house.

Do you know Lincoln's Gettysburg address? I didn't even know he'd moved - boom, boom!!


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

witchyone said:


> I am not religious, never have been and never will. I don't believe there is a God, but that's my opinion. If people want to believe that there is and take comfort from that then ok. *What I object to is jehovas (sp) witnesses knocking on my door and trying to force their views on me. Just because I didn't go along with them I was threatened with hell and damnation. *Knew there was something missing in my life
> 
> S&L, I wasn't questioning your faith, I was just curious.


The last time I answered the door to JW's, the man touting for followers questioned me in a very hostile manner about why I keep my cats indoors, why I didn't want to stand with my front door wide open, that way the cats can roam as they wish, and why, if I'm deaf, did I answer the door in the first place, how did I know he was knocking he asked (the cats told me ). Cheeky fecker.

Now when 'they' knock the door, I look out of the window and give them my own blessing - go forth and multiply 

.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I just say I have been to meetings, a couple my friend is Jehovah's witness and I wanted to see the difference and while they had some good points I didn't feel the urge to convert.

They should not be forcing their views on you or trying to though that is wrong whatever religion or non-existance of you believe in.


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## Bloodraine5252 (Jan 13, 2013)

I've really enjoyed this thread 

I'm pagan but I like to hear about other peoples beliefs. I don't have any Muslim friends so this is the first time I've really heard of anyone's personal experience of Ramadan.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

witchyone said:


> What I object to is jehovas (sp) witnesses knocking on my door and trying to force their views on me.


I just don't answer the door to strangers so they never get that far.  They seldom come out to where I live in the boondocks. 

I've had some Jehovah's Witnesses stay as cabin guests and was surprised they never broached the subject with me. Only knew when they left the Watchtower and other literature behind. Once it was all carefully hidden amongst the books on the shelf. :sneaky2:


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Cookieandme said:


> I don't believe Saddam had any influence in Iran.


On September 22, 1980, taking advantage of the political unrest in Iran after the Shah was overthrown, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein launched an invasion on it's neighbor Iran, which sparked the Iran - Iraq war. The war lasted eight years.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/293527/Iran-Iraq-War


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Cookieandme said:


> I don't believe Saddam had any influence in Iran.


Im just quoting you for my own previous post lmao,, so dont take it wrong.. The neighbour I had was one of these I think.. He was a shiites not a shiek my bad ..But I think she meant the bit in bold.



> The Baath and its government were under the control of Ahmad Hassan al-Baker and Saddam Hussein until 1979, when Saddam took over the government and the party through a bloodless coup. During all these years, the Shiites and the Kurds were excluded from government and occasionally were victims of the governments' brutal oppression. The Shiites paid a more severe price when, after the second Gulf War, the United States promised and then failed to support their uprising. While the Kurds benefited from the no-fly zone policy, the Shiites were exposed to Saddam's policy of suppression and elimination. *Thousands of Iraqis fled to Iran, where many of them utilized the resources that the Iranian government provided them and organized opposition groups with the goal of toppling Saddam's government. *The Dawa party of Nuri al-Maliki and Ibrahim Jafari and the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) of the al-Hakim family were among them.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

I shall ask my dad tomorrow about his friend otherwise its just gonna bug me as I was told when I was very young cause I asked about marks on his body and stuff and growing up I just assumed it was Saddam Hussein as that's who I associate with that part of the world but I could be wrong
im just worried to ask as I may be told the non child friendly version 

on a brighter note my friend and I donated some money to feed orphaned kids and the mosque set up a video chat via a volunteer who is there in a part of africa, I can honestly say I have never seen a child look so happy receiving a bowl of food and a glass of clean water 
my local mosque has raised £25,000 for various charities during this Ramadan so far. Amazing!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That's an amazing amount  I wasn't aware of the charity giving side of Ramadan it's all very interesting to learn about.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> That's an amazing amount  I wasn't aware of the charity giving side of Ramadan it's all very interesting to learn about.


yes the best time to give to charity is during Ramadan as the rewards are greater etc, the amount isn't important its more, giving what you can however little as a small amount to someone who earns little will be more significant than someone who gives a lot but earns a lot more if that makes sense


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The widow's mite story that the rich were giving some but it didn't impact them really but someone that had little could be giving all that they had it makes sense.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> yes the best time to give to charity is during Ramadan as the rewards are greater etc, the amount isn't important its more, giving what you can however little as a small amount to someone who earns little will be more significant than someone who gives a lot but earns a lot more if that makes sense


sure does, because the more you have the easier it is to give so the less you have the more its from the heart.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> sure does, because the more you have the easier it is to give so the less you have the more its from the heart.


yeeep exactly
Im usually wary about charities cause you never know 100% will go to the actual people that need it but my mother is quite sceptical so I think that view comes from her


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> yeeep exactly
> Im usually wary about charities cause you never know 100% will go to the actual people that need it but my mother is quite sceptical so I think that view comes from her


Im wary as well, its not a "givers" heart to be naive, wisdom has to come in play. 
The church I work at (yup surprise I work for a church   ) Im the finance assistant/Bookkeeper for them........... Theyn have a orphanage in nairobi they support and we also see vids etc of the kids so its touching.. But another charity I will support is the blind society lol now cos well.. eyes were opened


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

profx said:


> My thoughts exactly. I believe there is a god, but he is a cool hippy god and doesn't mind what we do, either that or god created the earth and f***ed off.
> 
> All these rules set by religion are ridiculous, I believe every religion was invented as a way to gain control. (That's not to say all religions are necessarily evil) For example, lets take the story of moses leading the jews out of egypt, here's what really happened in my opinion:
> 
> ...


I guess it all depends on where you want to place your faith. If you have any.
You can choose to think theres nothing out there or you can choose to serve something greater than _yourself_.
Its all about choice and how you decide to live your life. Personally knowing theres a creator is something that gives me comfort and a reason to want to live my life the way I do. 
If that seems senseless to you so be it.
At least I dont feel the need to mock those with faith and I guess that sort of shows the differences in the paths chosen.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Religion isn't so much about control as it was people who didn't understand why things happened trying to explain. They didn't understand earthquakes so said Posideon was striking the earth with his trident or the seasons changed because Persephone spent 6 months of the year in the underworld and Demeter got depressed. If there's a higher power then you can ask them to intercede on your behalf with whatever problem your civilisation is having. 

Some religions do try to impose control on society the abrahamic religions are especially good at this but that wasn't why we invented religion.

While I understand the reasoning I am still a christian  if a rather lapsed one. However I've got friends or know people from quite a few religions and denominations and some who don't believe in any higher power at all. I think learning about other religions is good, mocking them isn't.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

I see no strings wrapped around my arms  I recently_ decided_ to come back to my belief because of personal reasons. .....ya... heaven forbid we have a _choice._.. And dont bother with the "some dont have a choice" argument.. . we've covered the diff between extremists and followers.


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> What pees me off is that people pick and choose so some take off the religious holidays but then go out drinking, not fasting, they don't attend a place of worship but still insist on their days off, because they're 'entitled'.
> 
> I cannot bear those who tout religion round the doorsteps like it's a commodity. It's far too personal to do that.
> 
> Religion has a lot to answer for, the Catholics, of which I'm one, have murdered thousands over the years, Queen Mary merrily burned dozens alive. It's still causing issues worldwide, should be banned! I daresay people would still find something over which to fight, however


Spot on. Another thing I find strange is why people who arnt religious and never go to church then get married in church and have a religious ceremony in the so called eyes of God. Hypocritical if you ask me. And they shell out a small fortune to do it


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

witchyone said:


> Spot on. Another thing I find strange is why people who arnt religious and never go to church then get married in church and have a religious ceremony in the so called eyes of God. Hypocritical if you ask me. And they shell out a small fortune to do it


The female yearning to dress up and wear warpaint...

Chance to dress up in a long white frock and enable mothers to pose in their big daft hats.
A life long ambition to buy as many clothes as possible and spend most of their waking hours staring at what other women are wearing.
Possibly part of the female psyche from fifty thousand years ago when the first woman wore the first fur coat. 
Starts off at the age of three when you see them clomping round the house in Moms shoes and covered in Moms make up...

Being stuck with a male is a necessary inconvenience in this female fashion parade.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

poohdog said:


> The female yearning to dress up and wear warpaint...
> 
> Chance to dress up in a long white frock and enable mothers to pose in their big daft hats.
> A life long ambition to buy as many clothes as possible and spend most of their waking hours staring at what other women are wearing.
> ...


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

poohdog said:


> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by witchyone
> 
> ...


How do you explain low key weddings and gay weddings then??!? Or when its the MAN that wants the wedding ^^

Anywho... I don't get why non theists have religious ceremonies myself. I had a civil ceremony... I guess maybe they just like the venue.

I personally have no issue with religious belief as it is. Each to their own. My objection comes in when people expect their religious belief to affect law (like opposing same sex marriage and infringing on the rights of others)

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

edit: opposing ssm on religious grounds **

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## LottieLab (Jan 2, 2012)

My 2 Muslim friends are fasting, I hope they're managing! How long is it for?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Toby Tyler said:


> I just don't answer the door to strangers so they never get that far.  They seldom come out to where I live in the boondocks.
> 
> I've had some Jehovah's Witnesses stay as cabin guests and was surprised they never broached the subject with me. Only knew when they left the Watchtower and other literature behind. Once it was all carefully hidden amongst the books on the shelf. :sneaky2:


You will find, if you meet enough Jehovah's Witnesses, that the ones who are born and raised in the religion rarely preach at people they meet every day. It is the converts who cannot seem to curb their enthusiasm and keep their mouths shut.

They are also not trying to convert anyone when they come around. You have to go through a very lengthy process and be accepted before you can convert, they are not just grabbing anyone who might be interested. They come knocking because it is part of their religion to spread the word of God, even if it is their Word not God's.

They talk a load of rubbish, and if you ask the right questions you will find they don't have the answers and you will get a different answer from everyone of them that you ask.

I was given a leaflet which had pictures of babies and old folk on, and told that this was what was going to happen after the day of Judgement, that nobody would die and we would all inherit the earth forever. When I asked if we were not going to get a little overcrowded, she replied that "God would find a way". My reply was that He had found one, it was called an afterlife.

That is when she had to go.

We had a similar discussion about King Saul calling up the spirit of Samuel, when they believe there is no afterlife. No answer to my logical question, so she had to go.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

LottieLab said:


> My 2 Muslim friends are fasting, I hope they're managing! How long is it for?


daily from around 3am to 9pm depend where in the uk you're located and we have 2-3 days left until Ramadan ends


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

poohdog said:


> The female yearning to dress up and wear warpaint...
> 
> Chance to dress up in a long white frock and enable mothers to pose in their big daft hats.
> A life long ambition to buy as many clothes as possible and spend most of their waking hours staring at what other women are wearing.
> ...


OH!! Pooh at times your such a miserable old sod,little boys like playing with there dads tools and when they grow up they like playing with there own tool:ciappa:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> You will find, if you meet enough Jehovah's Witnesses, that the ones who are born and raised in the religion rarely preach at people they meet every day. It is the converts who cannot seem to curb their enthusiasm and keep their mouths shut.
> 
> They are also not trying to convert anyone when they come around. You have to go through a very lengthy process and be accepted before you can convert, they are not just grabbing anyone who might be interested. They come knocking because it is part of their religion to spread the word of God, even if it is their Word not God's.
> 
> ...


From what I remember about their version of judgement day the Devil would be given 100 years to convert who he could, some think this began in 1914 because well the hell of the last century. Then he would be tucked back into his cage and there would be paradise and anyone who had never gotten to hear the word of God would be reborn to hear it and then there would be the final war and all that. It's been a few years since I was told the story though. They believe only so many people will go to heaven, the rest will live on this paradise earth.

Converts tend to be the worst for any religion I've found like they have to prove their credentials somehow


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok so I didn't start this thread to be told by people that my religion and what is about is stupid and harmful etc, you guys are entitled to your opinion fair enough but please refrain from mocking it
> .


Like you said yourself, people are entitled to beleive what they like. I for one believe that religion should be mocked and ridiculed, what with it being utterly ridiculous and all.

"i'm going to starve myself because of an invisible skyman i was told about in a book, i have no proof that he is real or anything, in fact all the evidence points to the fact that he isnt, but i'll starve myself anyway!"

of course you will get mocked for something so silly, what do you expect? I'm sure i would be mocked too if i said i was going to give up food to honour the tooth fairy...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm always amused that it's religious people that are accused of being intolerant and preachy of other people's beliefs or way of life yet some of the most intolerant people I have met have been the atheists with a superiority complex. 

Not all atheists are like this of course and there are plenty of preachy bigoted religious people.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Spirited said:


> I guess it all depends on where you want to place your faith. If you have any.
> You can choose to think theres nothing out there or you can choose to serve something greater than _yourself_.
> Its all about choice and how you decide to live your life. Personally knowing theres a creator is something that gives me comfort and a reason to want to live my life the way I do.
> If that seems senseless to you so be it.
> At least I dont feel the need to mock those with faith and I guess that sort of shows the differences in the paths chosen.


even if that thing that is greater than yourself is just a figment of your imagination? Is that what you want to serve? 
You dont KNOW that theres a creator. You beleive it but there is NO evidence for it. NONE. Faith is the ability to ignore or twist to your needs the ever increasing mountain of scientific evidence which contradicts your creationist fairy tales.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

porps said:


> Like you said yourself, people are entitled to beleive what they like. I for one believe that religion should be mocked and ridiculed, what with it being utterly ridiculous and all.
> 
> "i'm going to starve myself because of an invisible skyman i was told about in a book, i have no proof that he is real or anything, in fact all the evidence points to the fact that he isnt, but i'll starve myself anyway!"
> 
> of course you will get mocked for something so silly, what do you expect? I'm sure i would be mocked too if i said i was going to give up food to honour the tooth fairy...


Whenever there is a discussion regarding religion or the supernatural, you pop up to call it all a lie as though you know that for a fact. You don't, you have beliefs like everyone else. Even you cannot think it is reasonable to compare God to the tooth fairy.

I have seen no evidence to point to God not existing; I have seen much to point to him existing. Either way, proof is not what is needed. Belief is what is required, just like yours.

Please refrain from getting this interesting thread closed by shouting that you are right and everyone else is stupid.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

porps said:


> even if that thing that is greater than yourself is just a figment of your imagination? Is that what you want to serve?
> *You dont KNOW that theres a creator*. You beleive it but there is NO evidence for it. NONE. Faith is the ability to ignore or twist to your needs the ever increasing mountain of scientific evidence which contradicts your creationist fairy tales.


And you don't KNOW that there isn't.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

porps - the way I see it is everything must have a creator whether it be a watch a hoover a human,, why is there an exception for the world? when I look around and see some of the wonders in this world I believe there is a creator behind it.
Religion isn't for everyone and im not going to say what you believe is wrong, because its true there is no definite proof, but im mature enough not to mock and criticise what you believe about the world and God etc so please have the decency to do the same. 
Im not going to sit here and argue or sulk because you don't see things from my point of view. So don't do the same to me. You may have your view and that's fine and I am also entitled to my own views without them being questioned.


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## profx (Apr 29, 2011)

Just in case any of you didn't know I have apologised to the people I offended with my post last night. I do not think religion should be mocked or ridiculed and my post was not supposed to be read that way. I'm not even an atheist and I especially apologise If I came off as one like porps here.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Whenever there is a discussion regarding religion or the supernatural, you pop up to call it all a lie as though you know that for a fact. You don't, you have beliefs like everyone else. Even you cannot think it is reasonable to compare God to the tooth fairy.


I know one thing for a fact - they cant all be right. And why is it not reasonable to compare god to the tooth fairy? Both are unproven supernatural beings for which there is NO evidence. The only difference is that most people stop beleiving in the tooth fairy when they grow up. Oh and one other difference perhaps - i never heard any stories about the tooth fairy commiting genocide or advocating slavery, or punishing rape victims for being raped.



newfiesmum said:


> I have seen no evidence to point to God not existing; I have seen much to point to him existing. Either way, proof is not what is needed. Belief is what is required, just like yours.


evidence is what is needed in order for there to be beleif. Yes it is my beleif that there is no god, but that is a beleif based on reason, logic and science. Not some old book.

Even it if was real i just dont understand why anyone would want to worship and serve such a hateful, vengeful and unjust god. But to each their own. I have as much right to beleive, and express the beleif that the faithful are all brainwashed idiots incapable of critical thinking as a religious person has to beleive that there is an invisible man in the sky controlling everything.
Religon is not exempt from ridicule, at least not in this country.



newfiesmum said:


> Please refrain from getting this interesting thread closed by shouting that you are right and everyone else is stupid.


I have never said such a thing, nor do i have the power to close a thread. If i want to express shouting i would use capitals or bolded letters, perhaps both.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Porps, while I agree with you the religion is a ridiculous thing (I do) you need to remember that people have a whole host of reasons for holding their belief and there is a difference between having respect for a religion and respect for a person.

I have religious friends and whilst I think what they believe is mostly pap, I respect their right and their reasons for following those beliefs. People don't need to explain their faith to anyone but themselves.

I cannot understand how people cam disregard scientific reasoning in favour of a books teaching but then again I am sure they can't understand how I can take the risk by walking against god.

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

porps said:


> even if that thing that is greater than yourself is just a figment of your imagination? Is that what you want to serve?
> You dont KNOW that theres a creator. You beleive it but *there is NO evidence for it. NONE.* Faith is the ability to ignore or twist to your needs the ever increasing mountain of scientific evidence which contradicts your creationist fairy tales.


Theres none against it either... Why so angry if someone wants to believe in a God ? Shadow didnt start this thread to preach, it was her fasting she was sharing.. so I mean srsly.. get a grip. .The only ones in this thread being pushy and rude with their "belief" is the ones that believe theres nothing  I know which side I respect thats for sure.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You'll have to provide evidence of where a god told someone to commit genocide. People are what makes religion dangerous and a force for evil not the god of choice. The Crusades were ordered by a human pope not the christian god, Allah doesn't whisper in suicide bombers' ears and order them to kill non-muslims in his name. Extremists are dangerous whatever religion or political group they belong to but they're the minority of any group.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> porps - the way I see it is everything must have a creator whether it be a watch a hoover a human,, why is there an exception for the world? when I look around and see some of the wonders in this world I believe there is a creator behind it.
> Religion isn't for everyone and im not going to say what you believe is wrong, because its true there is no definite proof, but im mature enough not to mock and criticise what you believe about the world and God etc so please have the decency to do the same.
> 
> aah the watchmaker arguement...
> ...


Im not going to sit here and argue or sulk because you don't see things from my point of view. So don't do the same to me. You may have your view and that's fine and I am also entitled to my own views without them being questioned.[/QUOTE]

No. You are not entitled for your views not be questioned when you put them up here on a public forum. 
If you dont even question what you beleive how can you be confident it's right?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

porps said:


> *Im not going to sit here and argue or sulk* because you don't see things from my point of view.


Really ? coulda fooled me  ..................was gonna edit but this post suits you anyway.


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## profx (Apr 29, 2011)

porps said:


> I know one thing for a fact - they cant all be right. And why is it not reasonable to compare god to the tooth fairy? Both are unproven supernatural beings for which there is NO evidence. The only difference is that most people stop beleiving in the tooth fairy when they grow up. Oh and one other difference perhaps - i never heard any stories about the tooth fairy commiting genocide or advocating slavery, or punishing rape victims for being raped.


Not every religion advocated slavery, punishes rape victims for being raped, or has ever committed genocide. To tarnish them all with the same brush is ridiculous.



> evidence is what is needed in order for there to be beleif. Yes it is my beleif that there is no god, but that is a beleif based on reason, logic and science. Not some old book.


Evidence is not needed for a belief, if there is concrete evidence for a belief then it becomes less of a belief and more a fact.



> Even it if was real i just dont understand why anyone would want to worship and serve such a hateful, vengeful and unjust god. But to each their own. I have as much right to beleive, and express the beleif that the faithful are all brainwashed idiots incapable of critical thinking as a religious person has to beleive that there is an invisible man in the sky controlling everything.
> Religon is not exempt from ridicule, at least not in this country.


Again, people view God as different things, some people may view God as vengeful, but others as loving and forgiving. God does not neccessarily have to be an invisible guy in the sky, if "he" exists I would say he is just an energy field, embodied as a male in the bible to create a sense of familiarity.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

porps said:


> I know one thing for a fact - they cant all be right. And why is it not reasonable to compare god to the tooth fairy? Both are unproven supernatural beings for which there is NO evidence. The only difference is that most people stop beleiving in the tooth fairy when they grow up. Oh and one other difference perhaps - *i never heard any stories about the tooth fairy commiting genocide or advocating slavery, or punishing rape victims for being raped.*
> 
> evidence is what is needed in order for there to be beleif. Yes it is my beleif that there is no god, but that is a beleif based on reason, logic and science. Not some old book.
> 
> ...


I have never heard any stories about God doing those things either. You are getting God mixed up with religion, which is a different thing altogether. If you bothered to read the teachings of Jesus Christ, Mohammed and other great prophets, you would know that they are all common sense and there is nothing supernatural about them. They are also based on love, not vengeance or hatred.

Jesus existed, so did Mohammed. There is historical evidence for both, they are not figments of anyone's imagination.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> You'll have to provide evidence of where a god told someone to commit genocide.


the great flood.
canaan
sodom and Gomorrah

to name but 3 of many.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I have never heard any stories about God doing those things either. You are getting God mixed up with religion, which is a different thing altogether. If you bothered to read the teachings of Jesus Christ, Mohammed and other great prophets, you would know that they are all common sense and there is nothing supernatural about them. They are also based on love, not vengeance or hatred.
> 
> Jesus existed, so did Mohammed. There is historical evidence for both, they are not figments of anyone's imagination.


There are some quite horrendous things in the bible around rape/murder etc.. I wont go into here but if anyones interested i can provide biblical reference. (PM me, dont want to further derail the thread)


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> any other muslims on here waiting till they can eat and drink?
> two hours to go and my stomach is screaming lol





porps said:


> *No. You are not entitled for your views not be questioned when you put them up here on a public forum. *


Ya hear that Shadow ? .. lol you asked the unforgiveable "view" on whether other muslims here were fasting? my god how awful of you... must have been shoving your views on others :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

porps said:


> the great flood.
> canaan
> sodom and Gomorrah
> 
> to name but 3 of many.


Just to play devil's advocate here: God ordered these things to happen? Am I correct that is what you are saying?
But you are saying there is no God - you can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
You may have the right to question someone's beliefs but not to ridicule them, not on this forum anyway.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

porps said:


> the great flood.
> canaan
> sodom and Gomorrah
> 
> to name but 3 of many.


Most cultures have stories of a flood around that time see Chinese history for one. It seems that genuinely there was a period of heavy rain and flooding around the time of the Noah's ark story maybe some guy stuck some animals and his family on a boat and the myth stayed and got exaggerated as they do.

Besides I thought the Bible was all fantasy .

Jesus came and made a new agreement that washed away the old. Some of the old testament laws are barbaric I'm not arguing that but make sense within the context of a society where a disease could wipe out half the population overnight. Jesus preached tolerance and respect for others whoever they were something some people could learn from.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Just to play devil's advocate here: God ordered these things to happen? Am I correct that is what you are saying?
> But you are saying there is no God - you can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
> You may have the right to question someone's beliefs but not to ridicule them, not on this forum anyway.


Thats the amusing thing about a lot of athiests (not all) they are quick to deny _and _blame God all in the same sentence


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> Thats the amusing thing about a lot of athiests (not all) they are quick to deny _and _blame God all in the same sentence


I think the point is that the BOOK says some horrendous thing, and people follow the book as gods word.

So the atheist POV might say I dont believe there is a god, you are following barbaric laws written in the 1st century for nothing - and if god _does_ exist, and the bible _is_ the word of God, why would you worship such a brutal and ego-driven god.
(Most atheists are Agnostic Atheists rather than Gnostic ones so would not say 100% god doesnt exist, simply that they do not believe any god exists)


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

porps I started this thread to see if there was any other muslims fasting, or any other muslims, because I was curious and tbh I was passing the time. I didn't realise that was a crime
following from my original post I have been asked questions about the religion and how Ramadan makes me feel etc which I have answered because people have been interested
I have not once pushed my beliefs and nor will I, if people are interested in my religion im not just going to not reply incase someone comes along and accuses me of pushing my religion on people 

I have no problem with my faith being questioned, but not just for the sake of some sort of debate with someone who doesn't and wont understand where I am coming from, it will just be pointless, you aren't going to make me believe what you believe and im not going to make you believe what I do so theres no point going down a heated road of differences in belief

I think you are just very confused about what you believe because youre saying you don't believe in a god but then hes to blame for bad things in the world. If you don't believe in a God he cant be blamed for bad things if he doesn't exist


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Coming on a thread and blatantly saying someone deserves to be mocked and ridiculed for a belief, brings zero respect to that side of the debate...... Nobody deserves that and anyone that has that mind frame is a bully and a *unt imo. Idgaf what they do or dont believe....


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

porps said:


> even if that thing that is greater than yourself is just a figment of your imagination? Is that what you want to serve?
> You dont KNOW that theres a creator. You beleive it but there is NO evidence for it. NONE. Faith is the ability to ignore or twist to your needs the ever increasing mountain of scientific evidence which contradicts your creationist fairy tales.


Yet it keeps me humbled to the point I dont make inane posts supporting mockery of what has yet to be _disproven_ as well. 

As I said earlier, if you choose to live life believing there is nothing greater out there and that there is nothing to aspire to aside from your own personal aspirations, more power to you.
But it would be nicer to read your own personal choice without the mockery and ridicule for those are the signs of the weak minded who lack tolerance and understanding.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> Theres none against it either... Why so angry if someone wants to believe in a God ? Shadow didnt start this thread to preach, it was her fasting she was sharing.. so I mean srsly.. get a grip. .The only ones in this thread being pushy and rude with their "belief" is the ones that believe theres nothing  I know which side I respect thats for sure.


This ^ I hate preaching, it's insulting to the other person's intelligence. But the only person preaching here is the person who is against religion....


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> Just to play devil's advocate here: God ordered these things to happen? Am I correct that is what you are saying?
> But you are saying there is no God - you can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
> You may have the right to question someone's beliefs but not to ridicule them, not on this forum anyway.


no. What i am saying is that if you beleive it is the word of god then you shouldnt ignore the parts that point to him being spiteful, hateful, vengeful, jealous, unjust and murderous.



porps said:


> *Even it if was real*


i had hoped those 5 words would be enough to explain myself.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Spirited said:


> But it would be nicer to read your own personal choice without the mockery and ridicule for those are the signs of the weak minded who lack tolerance and understanding.


and here i was thinking that sign was a cross.

ok.. ill stop now


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

porps said:


> no. What i am saying is that if you beleive it is the word of god then you shouldnt ignore the parts that point to him being spiteful, hateful, vengeful, jealous, unjust and murderous.
> 
> i had hoped those 5 words would be enough to explain myself.


There are completely ridiculous laws in the old testament yes however things like Sodom and Gomorrah and the great flood were more likely people's attempts to understand devastating natural phenomena. They had no idea what caused earthquakes or floods so they blamed their god just like the Greeks blamed Posideon etc. The Bible was put together at Nicea by HUMANS who chose what parts they felt represented the word of God they could claim he guided them but the priestesses at Delphi who were high off hallucinogenics also claimed those visions came from their god.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> There are some quite horrendous things in the bible around rape/murder etc.. I wont go into here but if anyones interested i can provide biblical reference. (PM me, dont want to further derail the thread)


References in the Bible were written by man not by God. I know that many religions will have you believe that these things were dictated by God himself, but it is more likely in the imagination of whoever did write them that he was getting his information direct from God. A bit like Henry VIII who believed that because he was king, every thought that entered his head came direct from God. Do we believe that God told him to divorce his wife and marry Anne Boleyn? No, we don't. So why believe that every word in the Bible was put there by God?

They are stories, mostly built around Jewish history and it is a fascinating book but it is just a book. It has little to do with faith or belief.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

porps said:


> no. What i am saying is that if you beleive it is the word of god then you shouldnt ignore the parts that point to him being spiteful, hateful, vengeful, jealous, unjust and murderous.


yes there are parts of the Quran and Bible that may portray God in a bad way but it is all about interpretation
however I do believe that it is a load off bull when people rape murder bomb etc in the name of God, no God did not tell people to do this. Us humans were given free will and it is such a shame that people use this free will for bad rather than good.

My uncle four years ago was given two weeks to live and told he had very progressed cancer , he went to Mekkah (Holy land for musims) and drank from a well that is believed to be blessed by Allah, he also brought bottles of water back that was the equivalent of holy water he prayed for longer to see his kids grow etc
he is still alive now, without any medicines any chemotherapy and the cancer went
over 10 tests showed he had cancer and it vanished when he returned from Mekkah
surely this is the work of God


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> yes there are parts of the Quran and Bible that may portray God in a bad way but it is all about interpretation
> however I do believe that it is a load off bull when people rape murder bomb etc in the name of God, no God did not tell people to do this. Us humans were given free will and it is such a shame that people use this free will for bad rather than good.
> 
> My uncle four years ago was given two weeks to live and told he had very progressed cancer , he went to Mekkah (Holy land for musims) and drank from a well that is believed to be blessed by Allah, he also brought bottles of water back that was the equivalent of holy water he prayed for longer to see his kids grow etc
> ...


While I believe that, you will be told either that it was just one of those unexplainable regressions, or that the medics got it wrong in the first place.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> References in the Bible were written by man not by God. I know that many religions will have you believe that these things were dictated by God himself, but it is more likely in the imagination of whoever did write them that he was getting his information direct from God.


so then why should anyone beleive ANY of it?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> References in the Bible were written by man not by God. I know that many religions will have you believe that these things were dictated by God himself, but it is more likely in the imagination of whoever did write them that he was getting his information direct from God. A bit like Henry VIII who believed that because he was king, every thought that entered his head came direct from God. Do we believe that God told him to divorce his wife and marry Anne Boleyn? No, we don't. So why believe that every word in the Bible was put there by God?
> 
> They are stories, mostly built around Jewish history and it is a fascinating book but it is just a book. It has little to do with faith or belief.


I agree, sadly some people/religious sects do follow the written word as "Gods" law. Just look at the dutch lady who was nearly jailed in dubai for reporting rape (she was "pardoned" - PARDONED for being raped..), or the WBC picketing funerals with signs saying "GOD HATES ****"


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

porps said:


> so then why should anyone beleive ANY of it?


whats it to you what others believe? are you God? *bows down :rolleyes5:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

porps said:


> so then why should anyone beleive ANY of it?


If you are basing your idea only on the Bible, then you shouldn't. You should take it as it is, a fascinating book which gives us a real view of Jewish history while also giving us Jewish mythology. There are many references that have since been proved by archeology; there are many stories which are the same in other religions, like the story of the flood. I believe that is also in Greek and Roman mythology.

It is not only the Bible that gives people their beliefs, that is just a basis on which to begin.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> I agree, sadly some people/religious sects do follow the written word as "Gods" law. Just look at the dutch lady who was nearly jailed in dubai for reporting rape (she was "pardoned" - PARDONED for being raped..), or the WBC picketing funerals with signs saying "GOD HATES ****"


People pick and choose what bits they like, people like the WBC claim to follow a man who preached tolerance and yet follow the bits of the old testament law they like the sound of such as the one mention of a man lying with another man .


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

porps said:


> so then why should anyone beleive ANY of it?


because people can believe what they want and should be allowed to believe and practice their religion as they wish without non believers trying to convince them its not real


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> I agree, sadly some people/religious sects do follow the written word as "Gods" law. Just look at the dutch lady who was nearly jailed in dubai for reporting rape (she was "pardoned" - PARDONED for being raped..), or the WBC picketing funerals with signs saying "GOD HATES ****"


But what has that to do with God, or the teachings of Muhammed or Christ? Wasn't it Jesus who told the persecutors of the adultress: let he who is without sin among you, cast the first stone?

People should read these things with an open mind, go back to the original teachings, not decide that because men have used them as a basis for their own bigotry and violence, then none of it is worth following.

If we all lived how Jesus Christ taught, there would be no wars, no hatred, no bigotry, nothing but peace. I cannot speak for Muhammed because I don't know enough about them, but I imagine they are similar.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> I agree, sadly some people/religious sects do follow the written word as "Gods" law. Just look at the dutch lady who was nearly jailed in dubai for reporting rape (she was "pardoned" - PARDONED for being raped..), or the WBC picketing funerals with signs saying "GOD HATES ****"


That was awful and sadly happens more then can even be published. But people confuse (again) the _religious _who are governed by the "law" and the _followers _who love him and do not have the same heart as the religious. Its not the fault of the people what the governments choose to control and police.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> People pick and choose what bits they like, people like the WBC claim to follow a man who preached tolerance and yet follow the bits of the old testament law they like the sound of such as the one mention of a man lying with another man .


I think to follow the bible you have to pick old or new, cos you cant do both...it just doesnt work lol. OR realise that its a man made book. Thats not to say you dont believe there is a god; just that what is written in the bible is from a human perspective and in the context of the time it was written.

Like i said, i have no issue with belief, my only problem lies when one persons belief infringes on another persons rights. Just like I dont agree that people should have their faith ridiculed and I dont believe anyone should have to justify their belief to anyone either - as it becomes a personal attack and usually ends up in Ad Hominem statements.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> That was awful and sadly happens more then can even be published. But people confuse (again) the _religious _who are governed by the "law" and the _followers _who love him and do not have the same heart as the religious. Its not the fault of the people what the governments choose to control and police.


See previous response. I understand fully the difference. I have many religious friends, and was educated at a church school from 6 to 18 

Your quoted statement was in response specifically to the bible rather than belief in God.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> I think to follow the bible you have to pick old or new, cos you cant do both...it just doesnt work lol. OR realise that its a man made book. Thats not to say you dont believe there is a god; just that what is written in the bible is from a human perspective and in the context of the time it was written.
> 
> Like i said, i have no issue with belief, my only problem lies when one persons belief infringes on another persons rights. Just like I dont agree that people should have their faith ridiculed and I dont believe anyone should have to justify their belief to anyone either - as it becomes a personal attack and usually ends up in Ad Hominem statements.


I entirely agree with you people should be free to believe in whatever they want, even people like the wbc. Provided they don't try to force that view on others.

Jesus' sacrifice washed away the old laws he preached tolerance and respect not the rules that a fairly primitive society needed to function such as limiting non-breeding pairs by banning homosexuality.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

I just think the world would be such a better place if we accepted that everyone was different and didn't force our views on others. The world would also be a better place if it wasn't full of greedy, control freaks that just want power. Religion isn't what's wrong with the world its the sheer need to always be right.
It would be amazing if world peace was achieved in my lifetime.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

porps said:


> Like you said yourself, people are entitled to beleive what they like. I for one believe that religion should be mocked and ridiculed, what with it being utterly ridiculous and all.
> 
> "i'm going to starve myself because of an invisible skyman i was told about in a book, i have no proof that he is real or anything, in fact all the evidence points to the fact that he isnt, but i'll starve myself anyway!"
> 
> of course you will get mocked for something so silly, what do you expect? I'm sure i would be mocked too if i said i was going to give up food to honour the tooth fairy...


I myself dont believe in God ... but if someone else does then its not even in question , their God does exist because they believe he does

NO-ONE should be mocked for following their religion/heart


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Mese said:


> NO-ONE should be mocked for following their religion/heart


Quite right, we have discussed just that at our local Smurf-cult church only last week


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Mese said:


> I myself dont believe in God ... but if someone else does then its not even in question , their God does exist because they believe he does
> 
> NO-ONE should be mocked for following their religion/heart


I am the same but have enjoyed reading this thread,I truly wish I did have a belief must be quite comforting


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Mese said:


> but if someone else does then its not even in question , their God does exist because they believe he does


sorry that isnt how reality works


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

porps said:


> sorry that isnt how reality works


If it gives a person comfort, why does it matter?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> Quite right, we have discussed just that at our local Smurf-cult church only last week


Im so very happy that you found a place you _belong _


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

porps said:


> sorry that isnt how reality works


Every person sees things from their own perspective , whats right for one is wrong for another ... but that doesnt mean one is in the right and the other is in the wrong , they are both correct in the way that they see it


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

porps I don't know why you have such a problem 
what I choose to do does not impact your life in any way and neither does the life on any person that chooses to follow a religion so whats the big deal?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> porps I don't know why you have such a problem
> what I choose to do does not impact your life in any way and neither does the life on any person that chooses to follow a religion so whats the big deal?


religion does influence the lives of non beleivers though. faith may be a different story.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

porps said:


> religion does influence the lives of non beleivers though. faith may be a different story.


Get off her back ffs, shes a believer not an extremist, don't treat her like one.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

porps said:


> Like you said yourself, people are entitled to beleive what they like. I for one believe that religion should be mocked and ridiculed, what with it being utterly ridiculous and all.
> 
> "i'm going to starve myself because of an invisible skyman i was told about in a book, i have no proof that he is real or anything, in fact all the evidence points to the fact that he isnt, but i'll starve myself anyway!"
> 
> of course you will get mocked for something so silly, what do you expect? I'm sure i would be mocked too if i said i was going to give up food to honour the tooth fairy...


If you are going to mock and ridicule people then you should just keep your stinking opinions to yourself!

So people follow religion, so what! Are they hurting you? NO! You have no right to judge ANYONE for what they choose to believe!

We as a family go to church, my kids attend a sunday school and their soon to be god parents are both Pastors.

Now ill tell you something mr judgemental...Since we have been going to church we have met the most incredible people and become part of a family there!
I love watching the ministers preach (esp the kids god parents) because you can see the passion they have about what they believe and to have that passion and belief must be truly incredible!

The people who we have come to know are the most compassionate, understanding, generous and truly amazing people you could ever wish to meet!

I honestly wish the world was full of people like them...the world would be a much better place.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Mese said:


> Every person sees things from their own perspective , whats right for one is wrong for another ... but that doesnt mean one is in the right and the other is in the wrong , they are both correct in the way that they see it


but beleiving in something does make it real. Or maybe it does? maybe santa claus and the tooth fairy exist because kids beleive in them?
the concept exists when someone beleives in it, but not necessarily the actual thing.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

porps said:


> religion does influence the lives of non beleivers though. faith may be a different story.


Then focus your energy on groups that are attempting to influence law and societal change based on religious belief, not individuals who hold belief but do nothing but affect their own life in doing so (be fasting, for example)

I personally feel your vocal animosity towards religion was misplaced in this particular thread..


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

porps said:


> religion does influence the lives of non beleivers though. faith may be a different story.


tell me how does my religion affect you?
and by my religion I mean the true religion and not the media portrayed crap you see on the news


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Get off her back ffs, shes a believer not an extremist, don't treat her like one.


i'm not treating her like one. At no point have i suggested she is an extremist.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No one is ridiculing you for not believing yet you seem intent on attacking people for believing. There are secular organisations that try to impose their will on others too, see Richard Dawkins and his worshippers oh sorry insert whatever term they prefer, who do what you're doing. Taking the extremists, saying that's how all religious people behave and attacking anyone who thinks differently. 

I say that as a scientist by the way there is almost a cult around these celebrity scientists.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> No one is ridiculing you for not believing yet you seem intent on attacking people for believing. There are secular organisations that try to impose their will on others too, *see Richard Dawkins and his worshippers *oh sorry insert whatever term they prefer, who do what you're doing. Taking the extremists, saying that's how all religious people behave and attacking anyone who thinks differently.
> 
> I say that as a scientist by the way there is almost a cult around these celebrity scientists.


Or Cesar Millan followers, the ones that give you red rep if you dare to say he is a pratt!

The point is that people like me, who do not really go in for organised religion but still believe, and people who do believe in an organised religion, can do so quietly and with dignity and without getting their knickers in a knot because other people don't agree with them.

Anyone who makes quite so much fuss about what others believe is probably not so sure of it themselves.

I would like to get back to the original topic though, which if I remember was the meaning of Ramadan.

I took out a Moslem lady during Ramadan once who had the most awful cough, but she wasn't allowed to get a glass of water. I thought that taking things to extremes.

I would never believe in fasting for any reason, because I do not believe that what is done to the body has any affect on the spirit. But I am still interested in the traditions behind it.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Anyone who makes quite so much fuss about what others believe is probably not so sure of it themselves.


Exactly. :thumbup:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I would like to get back to the original topic though, which if I remember was the meaning of Ramadan.
> 
> I took out a Moslem lady during Ramadan once who had the most awful cough, but she wasn't allowed to get a glass of water. I thought that taking things to extremes.
> 
> I would never believe in fasting for any reason, because I do not believe that what is done to the body has any affect on the spirit. But I am still interested in the traditions behind it.


yes well it is not compulsory to fast if you feel sick or ill but its a personal choice and i know some people will fast through illness.
a lot of people don't believe in fasting and each to their own but i think we all need to respect each others beliefs, some people in this thread haven't quite grasped that concept


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I think everyone has an absolute right to believe what they like when it comes to religion.

I am a Christian but don't often go to church (mostly weddings, christenings and funerals tbh) but I pray when I feel the need and I try to be a decent human being and consider others feelings.

I think it is admirable that some people go to such lengths (i.e. fasting during Ramadan, etc) to honour their religious beliefs. It isn't something I would even consider. I would be passing out within hours

So long as anybody doesn't try to force/push their religion on me or attempt to insult my religious beliefs:nonod:, I think it's a case of live and let live

I find religion a very interesting subject. R.E. was one of my favourite lessons at school. This thread is very interesting. Have learned a few things


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> yes well it is not compulsory to fast if you feel sick or ill but its a personal choice and i know some people will fast through illness.
> a lot of people don't believe in fasting and each to their own but i think we all need to respect each others beliefs, some people in this thread haven't quite grasped that concept


I agree 1000%.
I _am_ going to ridicule your signature though. for 2 reasons.
1. Every dern cat is just too cute for words 
2. I can only have a tiny signature.

:w00t:


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I leave for a few hours and this lovely thread has been turned into something else. A lot of time people critisize out of ignorance from what they see or what they read without really researching. I think this is a wonderful opportunity to learn about the muslims as I personally know very little and would like to know more.
OP, what kind of prayers do you have? For example in the catholic church, we pray to God with psalms from the prophets, we pray the rosary, we meditate, read the bible and we have a number of other prayers. We have both morning and evening prayers (lauds, vespers, terce, sext, none). How do you guys pray, I´ve seen you sometimes carry beads.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm so glad I don't have a faith, most wars have been caused by them.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I'm so glad I don't have a faith, most wars have been caused by them.


I think most wars are caused by missguided individuals who feel they are acting in the name of God or some very selfish individuals. Either way, the message I get from my bible is one of peace and turning the other cheek....the rest is just lack of humility and personal ambition that is very far from what christianity should be.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I'm so glad I don't have a faith, most wars have been caused by them.


Wars are caused by people not religion, except maybe the odd schizophrenic teenage girl. People claim to fight in the name of their god but in reality are fighting for their own reasons.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

merlin12 said:


> I think most wars are caused by missguided individuals who feel they are acting in the name of God or some very selfish individuals. Either way, *the message I get from my bible is one of peace and turning the other cheek..*..the rest is just lack of humility and personal ambition that is very far from what christianity should be.


You really think that do you.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> I think most wars are caused by missguided individuals who feel they are acting in the name of God or some very selfish individuals. Either way, the message I get from my bible is one of peace and turning the other cheek....the rest is just lack of humility and personal ambition that is very far from what christianity should be.


Well said. 
Most of the conflicts "in the name of religion" have come about by people who pervert the message or intention whip people into a frenzy.
They take an innocent message about love and peace and try to turn people against each other for their own gains.
Right now you cant watch the news without hearing terrorism , Alquida and Islamic extremists.
The intentions, in my mind anyway, are to make all Muslims seem like they are Alquida in the making and shouldnt be trusted.
Divide and conquer.
What a more beuatiful planet we'd live on if everyone just accepted people for who and what they believe rather than try to use it as a wedge to have people at each others throats. The gain for them doing this though is while we are eyeing each other without trust, we arent watching the ones we really should be. The ones stirring the pot in the first place.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

yes I do, another thing is that peole don´t practice what they preach. That isn´t the fault of religeon, it´s the faut of those who practice it. Anyone who takes time to research can have a more documented opinion.


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

Praise be to the Lord and I thank God that I am not religious  It seems to be causing a lot of conflicting opinions on here.

Amen


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wow what is wrong with people, what happened to live and let live? 

I don't care what peoples faith is, if it keeps them going through tough times, and makes them a better person then good for them, if it gives them someone to call on for help when they seem totally lost I'm happy.

Religion is not the cause of wars etc it's people, people who abuse others faith to their own means.

S&L I hope your faith makes you a better person, and gives you comfort in times of need.

You should never be made to defend your faith to anyone, I would rather have lots of people of different preaching the "good" of their faith to me, than one bitter person belittling peoples beliefs and just being unpleasant any day of the week.

We have had a few guys in work fasting, and they are here working until late at night so they can then go and eat.. 

Good people are good people no matter what their faith is, many evil people hid behind faith and use it to their advantage..

People should learn to leave and let live... Life is to short as it is without being bitter... :hand:


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Wow what is wrong with people, what happened to live and let live?
> 
> I don't care what peoples faith is, if it keeps them going through tough times, and makes them a better person then good for them, if it gives them someone to call on for help when they seem totally lost I'm happy.
> 
> ...


Ameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!!!!!


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

porps said:


> but beleiving in something does make it real. Or maybe it does? maybe santa claus and the tooth fairy exist because kids beleive in them?
> the concept exists when someone beleives in it, but not necessarily the actual thing.


If someone believes in something and has faith that its real who can say they are wrong ... for that person it is real , as real as the air they breath ... so for anyone to say to them they are wrong makes that person wrong imo , not the person who wholeheartedly , with every fibre of their being , believes


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> You really think that do you.


I ain't religious in the slightest and it makes sense to me...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> You really think that do you.


Have you read it? Most people who say the Bible is this that or the other have never actually sat down and read it.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

merlin12 said:


> I leave for a few hours and this lovely thread has been turned into something else. A lot of time people critisize out of ignorance from what they see or what they read without really researching. I think this is a wonderful opportunity to learn about the muslims as I personally know very little and would like to know more.
> OP, what kind of prayers do you have? For example in the catholic church, we pray to God with psalms from the prophets, we pray the rosary, we meditate, read the bible and we have a number of other prayers. We have both morning and evening prayers (lauds, vespers, terce, sext, none). How do you guys pray, I´ve seen you sometimes carry beads.


We have 5 prayers a day, we have set times in which we are to pray them, during Ramadan especially, when praying we have a prayer matt which faces Mekkah, each of the 5 prayers differ slightly but all have the same layout to them, within these prayers, Surahs (passages) from the Quran are quoted. I don't know if you have ever seen a muslim praying but I don't really know how to explain the actions etc

there is a time within the prayers which we are able to pray for others, ourselves, our worries etc or just Thank Allah for things.

The prayer beeds we have contain 99 beads with correspond with the 99 names we have for Allah and we are supposed to read these after each of our prayers
33 times we say glory be to God - in the Arabic which is Subhanallah
Then we have Alhumdulillah which is praise be to God
and Finally Allahu Akbar which is God is the greatest



Happy Paws said:


> I'm so glad I don't have a faith, most wars have been caused by them.


most wars in my opinion have been caused by greed of some sort
I know a few people who lived in Baghdad when the war began, one guy lost his whole family and his left leg, even he doesn't blame God or religion for any of it. There are a lot of people in my area that have fled countries of war, a very good friend of mine is from Bosnia, I don't know if you heard of it but there was an ethnic cleansing of Bosnian muslims carried out by the Serbians
Again she lost a lot of family does the blame lie with God? No it lies with the evil people that done it

IF people who have experienced war first hand don't blame God then certainly us in our Cushy little lives cant blame him for war
( I do apologise if anyone has been affected by war)


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Using NI as an example people claimed they were fighting for Protestants or Catholics in reality it's more like tribal warfare between the unionists and the nationalists and Protestants and Catholics have fought on both sides. But the Protestants could claim they were defeating the backwards corrupt Catholic church, while the Catholics could say they were fighting the heretics .

The conquest of South America was claimed by the Spanish to be mostly about bringing religion to the poor poor savage natives, saving their souls and what not. Nothing to do with the masses of gold they found over there of course.

And of course the Muslim extremists killing in the name of a peaceful religion.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Using NI as an example people claimed they were fighting for Protestants or Catholics in reality it's more like tribal warfare between the unionists and the nationalists and Protestants and Catholics have fought on both sides. But the Protestants could claim they were defeating the backwards corrupt Catholic church, while the Catholics could say they were fighting the heretics .
> 
> The conquest of South America was claimed by the Spanish to be mostly about bringing religion to the poor poor savage natives, saving their souls and what not. Nothing to do with the masses of gold they found over there of course.


Or of late just because people have nothing better to do, it's been sunny and they have been out drinking all day, so lets just burn some cars and throw some petrol bombs coz drinks in and wit is out  Or Career rioters  :nonod: not even from NI  but in the name of religion


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

witchyone said:


> Praise be to the Lord and I thank God that I am not religious  It seems to be causing a lot of conflicting opinions on here.
> 
> Amen


The only conflict on here is caused by non-believers insisting on trying to "convert" others to their anti-religious feelings. I don't believe in anything supernatural, not god, not ghosts, not an afterlife.....but it doesn't harm me that others live their own life according to different beliefs (religion dictating politics is a whole different issue), so who am I to force my (lack of) beliefs on others?

It's pretty funny really, that those showing most intolerance on here are the same people who blame religion for all the evil in the world.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Or of late just because people have nothing better to do, it's been sunny and they have been out drinking all day, so lets just burn some cars and throw some petrol bombs coz drinks in and wit is out  Or Career rioters  :nonod: not even from NI  but in the name of religion


No no it's totally because those evil Catholics want the Protestant Irish out they're totally legit . I don't think many are rent a mob I don't think we'd put up with amateurs for long :nonod:


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

S&L you have my admiration, to be so committed to something you believe in and to find peace and inspiration from your experience.

I will always admire those with Faith - I will always condemn those who use 'faith' for terror - be that christian extremists targeting homosexuals or any other person or organisiation using their religion to hurt another.
To me faith is something that should bring comfort and guidance to those that have it.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

a question to you non believers.. do you believe in the devil, whatever you want to call the opposite of God?
as I do know some atheists that believe in one but not the other?
just curious not accused anyone of worshipping the devil before I get someone on saying that's what im doing


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

If something makes you happy, makes you feel more fulfilled, and doesn't hurt anyone else, I can't see what the problem is.

The only time I get slightly annoyed, is when I get a vet appointment on a Friday (my day off) lunchtime. My vets is next to the Mosque so I'm lucky to find a parking space  

Thanks for this thread S&L - I have learnt a lot I didn't know, despite living near the first purpose built Mosque in the UK!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> a question to you non believers.. do you believe in the devil, whatever you want to call the opposite of God?
> as I do know some atheists that believe in one but not the other?
> just curious not accused anyone of worshipping the devil before I get someone on saying that's what im doing


I consider myself an atheist - to believe in the 'devil' you need to believe in 'god' as one doesn't exist without the other - so no I don't believe in either.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> a question to you non believers.. do you believe in the devil, whatever you want to call the opposite of God?
> as I do know some atheists that believe in one but not the other?
> just curious not accused anyone of worshipping the devil before I get someone on saying that's what im doing


I don't believe in the Devil either...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> a question to you non believers.. do you believe in the devil, whatever you want to call the opposite of God?
> as I do know some atheists that believe in one but not the other?
> just curious not accused anyone of worshipping the devil before I get someone on saying that's what im doing


Surely to believe in the devil you have to believe in God, Lucifer was an angel after all . But you can believe in evil without believing that there's a voice in your ear telling you to do bad things surely.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> a question to you non believers.. do you believe in the devil, whatever you want to call the opposite of God?
> as I do know some atheists that believe in one but not the other?
> just curious not accused anyone of worshipping the devil before I get someone on saying that's what im doing


Wot Fleur said. 



Fleur said:


> I consider myself an atheist - to believe in the 'devil' you need to believe in 'god' as one doesn't exist without the other - so no I don't believe in either.





Nicky10 said:


> Surely to believe in the devil you have to believe in God, Lucifer was an angel after all . But you can believe in evil without believing that there's a voice in your ear telling you to do bad things surely.


That's it - I don't believe there are entities embodying good and evil......I believe that humans are capable of both.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

in Islam we are taught that Shaitan exists (satan, the devil, horned beast whatever) and that he does try and lead us on to the wrong path and to do wrong things 
i do believe that to some extent, but i don't think we need the help of the devil to commit evil things, the world is full of evil, the world is also full of good but we do tend to hear more about the evil bad things that go on

i don't think the likes of war are down to god or satan just mankinds of enjoying people suffer and being greedy and all that stuff


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> a question to you non believers.. do you believe in the devil, whatever you want to call the opposite of God?
> as I do know some atheists that believe in one but not the other?
> just curious not accused anyone of worshipping the devil before I get someone on saying that's what im doing


I am a non believer so I do not believe in either a god or a devil.


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## CatsDomino (Oct 10, 2012)

I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god anymore than I believe the world is on the back of a giant turtle. Both are belief systems - both are an invention of man.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I believe in God and the devil. The thing is that what everyone has is free will so neither God forces us to believe and the devil can only tempt us. We have the last word, there is always that silent part in us that if we take time to listen we know when we are doing something wrong. Even the devil (for those of us that believe in his existence) chose and as a result was shown the way out.

Also for me it´s really cristal clear, God gave the ten commandments directly to Moses. The 5th is You shall not kill. Anyone killing in the name of God, should explain in the name of which God he/she is doing that because it is certainly not in the name of mine.

SL, thanks for explaining, I wondered what you guys prayed. Can you tell me why it´s not cumpulsory for women to go to the mosque? or m I mistaken?


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

merlin12 said:


> SL, thanks for explaining, I wondered what you guys prayed. Can you tell me why it´s not cumpulsory for women to go to the mosque? or m I mistaken?


yes you are right women do not have to go the mosque although with time a lot more mosque are offering woman section too, woman do not have to pray as a congregation and it is believed women are tied up with household duties and children so are unable to attend the mosque
but with time these things are changing
my local mosque has a place for women to pray



CatsDomino said:


> I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god anymore than I believe the world is on the back of a giant turtle. Both are belief systems - both are an invention of man.


the thing with the giant turtle and things like the world is flat etc over time these things have been proven to be wrong but no one can prove God does not exist, people can speculate and give their views but it cant be proven unlike other inventions of man which have been proven wrong.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> a question to you non believers.. do you believe in the devil, whatever you want to call the opposite of God?
> as I do know some atheists that believe in one but not the other?
> just curious not accused anyone of worshipping the devil before I get someone on saying that's what im doing


I dont believe in gods or devils , but I do believe there is good and evil.

I think humans have it in themselves to be whatever they want to be and will justify their actions (if bad) in whatever way they can


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## CatsDomino (Oct 10, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> the thing with the giant turtle and things like the world is flat etc over time these things have been proven to be wrong but no one can prove God does not exist, people can speculate and give their views but it cant be proven unlike other inventions of man which have been proven wrong.


No one has to prove a negative - the onus is on the people making the claims.

If you claim that your god did X, Y and Z - how long before each and every one of these things are disproven do you start to admit the possibility that your god doesn't exist? If you've already decided that every other (equally valid) religion is full of (insert phrase du jour here) you must posses some form of logical thought that has allowed you to do that? So why can you not apply the same logic to your own religion? General usage of 'you'.

Religions have been replaced by newer religions that offer more efficent answers to the people of the time - we saw it in Greece, Italy and Egypt where entire oantheons were replaced by the cults of the one god. How long before these new Abramahic religions follow suit? Only this time they're being relaced by demonstrable knowledge - so the claims made by religions are being disproven because science looks for answers, answers which show how these religions are wrong.

It's interesting to note that the number of recorded miracles has declined at an exponential rate, coinciding with the rise of the Internet, mobile phones and digital cameras.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

CatsDomino said:


> It's interesting to note that the number of recorded miracles has declined at an exponential rate, coinciding with the rise of the Internet, mobile phones and digital cameras.


you dont browse Youtube i take it then...


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Back to the question my mates at uni used to sit and plan what they were going to have when it got close to then end of the day, usually a fast food chain, it went something like: 
"I am going to have a pizza, no a burger ... hmm I'd really like a pizza though" 
" We could go to that nice chicken place..."
on and on until it was time lol. 

The only thing I found hard to understand was one girl I knew had a little boy and the fast took so much out on her on top of the other things that she became ill and had to give up uni. 
Another good friend has been fasting despite a chronic infection which I found really worrying. I understood it that there are ways of changing when you fast or reasons not to fast but for whatever reason people continuing to fast when they are unwell I just found it hard to understand. 
I know this is individual and that looking after yourself and family probably comes first but having seen it twice it bothered me that either pressure from self or feeling the need to join family/friends doing something like this when the circumstances were wrong I found hard to understand. 

I like how this has slipped away from the point into a god exists, no he doesn't debate when the OP didn't really ask that. :laugh:


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Howl said:


> Back to the question my mates at uni used to sit and plan what they were going to have when it got close to then end of the day, usually a fast food chain, it went something like:
> "I am going to have a pizza, no a burger ... hmm I'd really like a pizza though"
> " We could go to that nice chicken place..."
> on and on until it was time lol.
> ...


Like every other thread

OP, I have a doubt regarding what Howl said, I thought you coudn´t eat any meat that wasn´t Hallal? so can you go to a burgger?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Ok, so tell me...if you dont believe in a God (any God) whats your reaction when you know that truck is gonna hit your car, your child is missing, you fall and break your ankle, you find your pet dead at the side of the road, your job is lost when your employer goes bust, or when the pilot tells you the planes engines have blown up and its a long way down...

*OH GOD....*

(usually)

You cant ask for help from an entity you dont accept or believe can exist and youve written off as a myth for years...


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> Ok, so tell me...if you dont believe in a God (any God) whats your reaction when you know that truck is gonna hit your car, your child is missing, you fall and break your ankle, you find your pet dead at the side of the road, your job is lost when your employer goes bust, or when the pilot tells you the planes engines have blown up and its a long way down...
> 
> *OH GOD....*
> U
> ...


Erm, I don't ask for help from a being I don't believe exists, that would just be silly :laugh:

But, as Howl said, the OP wasn't asking for a debate on whether there is a god or not, it's a shame that people have taken the thread in that direction. Must be a tiring business if they constantly feel the need to tell religious people they are wrong...... Do they do this in RL I wonder? Stop at every church they see and go in to tell the congregation they are wrong and stupid?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Erm, I don't ask for help from a being I don't believe exists, that would just be silly :laugh:


you just havent been there yet....


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

If there is no god, there cannot be a devil. 
I am sorry the thread has taken a turn to the atheist-vs-believers debate as usual. As an atheist myself, I do sometimes feel that atheists are often unneccessarily critical of religion or religious people. Tolerance is a two-way street IMO.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> you just havent been there yet....


Wrong, you don't know where I've been!

ETA: see, I'm doing it now! The point is, the debate is irrelevant to what the OP was talking about, so it's kind of rude to send the thread that way.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> any other muslims on here waiting till they can eat and drink?
> two hours to go and my stomach is screaming lol


Not one that I can see

Lasagne, garlic bread, salad and a bottle of chilled white at 6pm if your passing...


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

CatsDomino said:


> No one has to prove a negative - the onus is on the people making the claims.


I guess that would depend on which negative needs to be proven. (eg God does not exist)



CatsDomino said:


> so the claims made by religions are being disproven because science looks for answers, answers which show how these religions are wrong.


Science is *still* _looking for answers_ to prove their assertion of Evolution but can't seem to figure out how life formed initially. It has them completely at a loss to be quite frank.

The entire history of evolution from ooze to the evolution of vertebrates from invertebrates to the evolution of man from the ape is strikingly absent of any intermediates: the links are all missing in the fossil record, just as they are in the present world.

Plenty of pictures show us as developing from monkeys, learning to walk upright and eventually evolving into what we are today. Yet there are still monkeys and no skeletal remains anywhere that show this evolution.



CatsDomino said:


> It's interesting to note that the number of recorded miracles has declined at an exponential rate, coinciding with the rise of the Internet, mobile phones and digital cameras.


Not so interesting really when you factor in the determined effort to create a more secular society. :thumbsup:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Even though we go to church etc i really do struggle with the concept of religion.....I am a very firm believer of evolution! And noah and his arc ...well how would that have worked? 

I do however believe that there is a higher being, that 'god' is of spirit form..who is to say he didnt create evolution? 

I didnt believe in the power of prayer, tbh i thought it was all a load of bull...until recently...when your on your knees with everything slipping away from you and have no control of anything thats happening its quite astonishing how powerful a prayer can be and the strength it can put back into you.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spirited said:


> I guess that would depend on which negative needs to be proven. (eg God does not exist)
> 
> Science is *still* _looking for answers_ to prove their assertion of Evolution but can't seem to figure out how life formed initially. It has them completely at a loss to be quite frank.
> 
> ...


OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOO ya calling a monkey?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

> Plenty of pictures show us as developing from monkeys, learning to walk upright and eventually evolving into what we are today. Yet there are still monkeys and no skeletal remains anywhere that show this evolution.


Anyone who asks "if we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys "clearly doesnt understand evolution. The link between apes and humans is well documented..

Simple answer - common ancestry.

Dumbed down diagram -


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Howl said:


> The only thing I found hard to understand was one girl I knew had a little boy and the fast took so much out on her on top of the other things that she became ill and had to give up uni.
> Another good friend has been fasting despite a chronic infection which I found really worrying. I understood it that there are ways of changing when you fast or reasons not to fast but for whatever reason people continuing to fast when they are unwell I just found it hard to understand.
> I know this is individual and that looking after yourself and family probably comes first but having seen it twice it bothered me that either pressure from self or feeling the need to join family/friends doing something like this when the circumstances were wrong I found hard to understand.
> 
> I like how this has slipped away from the point into a god exists, no he doesn't debate when the OP didn't really ask that. :laugh:


I personally will not fast if I am feeling sick, ill make up for it after Ramadan, a lot of muslims don't even realise they can do that XD
but I know a lot of people still fast when sick and it does tend to portray the time in a negative light as though we must make ourselves feel worse but its not like that



merlin12 said:


> Like every other thread
> 
> OP, I have a doubt regarding what Howl said, I thought you coudn´t eat any meat that wasn´t Hallal? so can you go to a burgger?


there are plenty of places that serve halal meat I even have a halal kfc near me lol


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

There is more evidence that point towards evolution than against it, which is why the scientific community as a general group accept it. Yes, there are gaps (not every creature that died was fossilised!) but science, being what it is, continues to work to answer the questions that are there, and they continue to search - and continue to find new fossils which close gaps.

"We dont know" should be followed in the pursuit of knowledge; not just filled in with "therefore god did it"


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I personally will not fast if I am feeling sick, ill make up for it after Ramadan, a lot of muslims don't even realise they can do that XD
> but I know a lot of people still fast when sick and it does tend to portray the time in a negative light as though we must make ourselves feel worse but its not like that
> 
> there are plenty of places that serve halal meat I even have a halal kfc near me lol


It must be a lot easier than 50 yrs ago, when I imiagine finding suitable meat was more difficult! Halal meat in the UK is more readily available now, do you think maybe grandparents etc would have found it more difficult in the past?


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Ok, so tell me...if you dont believe in a God (any God) whats your reaction when you know that truck is gonna hit your car, your child is missing, you fall and break your ankle, you find your pet dead at the side of the road, your job is lost when your employer goes bust, or when the pilot tells you the planes engines have blown up and its a long way down...
> 
> *OH GOD....*
> 
> ...


Saying My god or Oh christ or any number of religious words doesnt mean anything , if I did use them in that situation the meaning wouldnt be me praying but me swearing .... though to be honest in that situation id be far more likely to use an extremely bad swear word that would have resulted in my Mum washing my mouth out with soap when I was younger


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Mese said:


> Saying My god or Oh christ or any number of religious words doesnt mean anything , if I did use them in that situation the meaning wouldnt be me praying but me swearing .... though to be honest in that situation id be far more likely to use an extremely bad swear word that would have resulted in my Mum washing my mouth out with soap when I was younger


We still use Thursday - I dont believe in THOR either


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> Anyone who asks "if we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys "clearly doesnt understand evolution. The link between apes and humans is well documented..
> 
> *Simple answer - common ancestry.*
> 
> Dumbed down diagram -


2 problems with that.
1. In the "dumbed down" explanation, they still cant explain how the single cell initially formed. Major flaw.

2. Where is the evidence of this common ancestor?

"Functional morphological and* genetic similarities between humans and apes could be the result of common design* just as much as common descent. That's a good principle to keep in mind as you investigate this issue: functional biological similarity is explained by common design just as well as it's explained by common descent."

I've always loved how "dumbed down" pics attempt to assert theory as graphical fact. All the while neglecting to mention its all just theory. 

Not such a simple answer after all, is it?



grumpy goby said:


> "We dont know" should be followed in the pursuit of knowledge; not just filled in with "therefore god did it"


No more than it should be filled in with "evolution" 



> When evolutionary scientists construct phylogenetic trees, they usually assume that similarity results from inheritance from a common ancestor--homology. *But homoplasy throws that assumption into chaos*. Because homoplasy represents a *similarity that does not result from common ancestry*, the Science paper notes that "homoplasy historically posed problems for phylogeneticists."


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Spirited said:


> Not such a simple answer after all, is it?


Course it is ... its Aliens , just ask Rimmer from Red Dwarf , it always has to do with aliens


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> It must be a lot easier than 50 yrs ago, when I imiagine finding suitable meat was more difficult! Halal meat in the UK is more readily available now, do you think maybe grandparents etc would have found it more difficult in the past?


i think there was very few halal butchers etc my dad moved over from Pakistan about 28 years ago and halal stuff was becoming more common but older people i know that were in the country around 40 years ago did have to travel a lot further to get their meat and stuff 
even my local asda has a halal section lol


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Spirited said:


> 2 problems with that.
> 1. In the "dumbed down" explanation, they still cant explain how the single cell initially formed. Major flaw.
> 
> 2. Where is the evidence of this common ancestor?
> ...


The dumbed down is answer to the monkey question...thats quite clear in the picture. Its a tiny part of the overall picture for illustrative purposes.
There is PLENTY of evidence pointing towards evolution pre ape; just get down your local library its all there. Or even google http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
Also, the common ancester is there in the diagram...at the top! (Orrorin Tugenessi i think) - its the answer to "why are there still monkeys" question which is often posed by people who dont fully understand the process. 
And scientists dont "just fill it" with evolution...they look, study, and provide evidence to fill the gap. The answer just happens to point towards evolution


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I know threads meander but why has this slid into talking about whether god exists and monkeys 

The original post was more a cultural one rather than religous anyway - its a bit like butting into a conversation and changing the subject :sad:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Evolution doesn't explain everything and the good scientists will tell you that there are huge holes in it but it's the best THEORY (nothing in science is ever truly proven its part of the process) that we have so far.

We had 2 lecturers for this one module one came in evolution is the best explains everything it's perfect, religious people are stupid, the other said it has flaws but it's the best we've got. Guess who we listened to more .

One of the best arguments against it I've heard is the flagella on a bacteria. It's essentially an outboard motor and all the pieces need to be exactly right for it to work and benefit the organism. But it would have had to be put together bit by bit and each part benefit the organism for it to have occurred through evolution :huh:

The well why is there still monkeys then argument is ridiculous. We evolved from a certain set of monkeys that learned to live on grassland not in the trees and stand upright and use tools. They were simply a group that adapted to their environment. Other species of monkey adapted to other areas. Evolution is a sliding scale not absolutes.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Mese said:


> Saying My god or Oh christ or any number of religious words doesnt mean anything


What it shows is your history going back 100's or 1000's of years, if you never heard of God,, never went to sunday school, never had RE at school, etc, etc, you would have no idea of the word, let alone its implications, but would you still say it?

the same applies to the word "black", it is associated with everything bad and evil, black sheep, black mass, black cat, black looks, etc, etc, its so deep in your physch you dont even know it, it could even explain why we shy away from using it to describe persons of African extraction, its not the word, its the implication and what it means to us even when we dont realise it...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Happy not to be human...


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> The dumbed down is answer to the monkey question...thats quite clear in the picture. Its a tiny part of the overall picture for illustrative purposes.
> There is PLENTY of evidence pointing towards evolution pre ape; just get down your local library its all there.
> Also, the common ancester is there in the diagram...at the top! (Orrorin Tugenessi i think) - its the answer to "why are there still monkeys" question which is often posed by people who dont fully understand the process.
> And scientists dont "just fill it" with evolution...they look, study, and provide evidence to fill the gap. The answer just happens to point towards evolution


Whats clear in the picture is that someone placed a lot of images. Aside from that, its more hogwash presented as science.
As far as scientists not just filling it in with evolution, then why are there so many at odds on it?
They cant even come to a common reason for the creation of life nor how it has developed. If youd cared to read the bit I posted that blew your picture apart, you'd see there are two schools of thought, in the science world mind you, on how two different creatures can have so many DNA similarities.
One is backed by the picture you posted.
The other theory is common design.
Both are viable. But at odds with one another as to how this all came about.
At best "science" has fragments of pieces and do indeed "fill in" what they have to go by.
For instance, how can they, they put forth that pic as evidence when they dont even have the "common ancestor" to point to. They don't know with any more certainty how things were created, either ID or Evolution, than you or I do sitting here discussing it.
Its theory.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/following_the_evidence_where_i047161.html


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Spirited said:


> Whats clear in the picture is that someone placed a lot of images. Aside from that, its more hogwash presented as science.
> As far as scientists not just filling it in with evolution, then why are there so many at odds on it?
> They cant even come to a common reason for the creation of life nor how it has developed. If youd cared to read the bit I posted that blew your picture apart, you'd see there are two schools of thought, in the science world mind you, on how two different creatures can have so many DNA similarities.
> One is backed by the picture you posted.
> ...


You're right on one thing the basic building blocks for life carbs, amino acids etc could have been created on Earth within the timeframe of the Earth and they have done it in a lab. BUT only with catalysts that as far as they know didn't exist at the time. That's where panspermia comes in, the idea that a lot of it came from space which we know water did.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Spirited said:


> Whats clear in the picture is that someone placed a lot of images. Aside from that, its more hogwash presented as science.
> As far as scientists not just filling it in with evolution, then why are there so many at odds on it?
> They cant even come to a common reason for the creation of life nor how it has developed. If youd cared to read the bit I posted that blew your picture apart, you'd see there are two schools of thought, in the science world mind you, on how two different creatures can have so many DNA similarities.
> One is backed by the picture you posted.
> ...


I dont have time to go into intellegent design right now (Im at work), but the site you quote appears to be an ID faith driven site - will respond later when i have the time!


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> You're right on one thing the basic building blocks for life carbs, amino acids etc could have been created on Earth within the timeframe of the Earth and they have done it in a lab. BUT only with catalysts that as far as they know didn't exist at the time. That's where panspermia comes in, the idea that a lot of it came from space which we know water did.


Considering Earth is in space, Id say it isnt much of a reach to think the catalysts came from space.
Whether you believe in the Big Bang or ID, it all had to be created. 
Thats the one thing youve been right about so far.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

For the common ancestor bit there is a group of chimpanzees currently that are living under the same conditions they think we evolved under in the grasslands. They're standing upright to see over the grass and using primitive spears to hunt bushbabies :eek6:.

Almost Human - National Geographic Magazine


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> I dont have time to go into intellegent design right now (Im at work), but the site you quote appears to be an ID faith driven site - will respond later when i have the time!


Berkeley is a renowned extremely Liberal, pro evolution institution but I didnt knock you for citing them. :laugh:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

oh the good old evolution debate this brings me back to my a level days
doing both biology and religious studies the two just don't seem to want to co-exist, but how do we know God didn't cause evolution? the story of creation, 7 days doesn't mean 7 actual days, how do we know that him creating us humans didn't take him through the chain of evolution until he saw that it was good and what not lol


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm half inclined to agree with some kind of creation *ducks* the latest theory is that when the previous universe was destroyed the remains created the big bang. But how many universes and where did the original cloud of gas come from?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Spirited said:


> Berkeley is a renowned extremely Liberal, pro evolution institution but I didnt knock you for citing them. :laugh:


It was only illustrating what has already been provided with scientifc evidence rather than an opinion based article.

I am yet to see an unbiased peer reviewed article on ID that stands, most I have been presented are from heavily biased sources.

I have been given the religious schpeel as I was raised in a christian family and taught in a christian school 6-18. I have also done my own learning. And the evidence I have seen all points me towards evolution. Im yet to see an argument that steers me away from evolutionary theory.

IF there is a creator, then I still think it would have acted so early on to have acted as an evolutionary catalyst. But this is not something anyone can prove, so i err on the side of Atheism and Science.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I studied biology in the uni and while a lot of money has been and is being pumped into research, there are a number of gap holes, that have not been explained. You want to deny the existence of God, that´s your problem but the thing is you can´t proove that he doesnt exist. Still you (those people who are bent on telling others that they are mistaken for believing in God) take time to try and lure people away from the life they have chosen and are happy with.
It always baffles me, how the respect route is not two ways for some.
I believe my life does not end here and that I´m in this world for a purpose and that is how I will live my life, what is your problem with that?

SL, thanks for sharing your faith, we should use this thread to try to learn more about the muslim religeon, I for one don´t have anyone else to dialogue with and learn, instead of a debate that has not been put to rest in all these years and won´t do so now because you either have FAITH or you don´t. It is a grace, a gift.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> oh the good old evolution debate this brings me back to my a level days
> doing both biology and religious studies the two just don't seem to want to co-exist, but how do we know God didn't cause evolution? the story of creation, 7 days doesn't mean 7 actual days, how do we know that him creating us humans didn't take him through the chain of evolution until he saw that it was good and what not lol


^^ This

Aside from a Jehovah's Witness I know, most of my other religious friends have accepted evolution, and see it as the wonders of their god that he can create a world with such woderous complexity. This is an idea I can relate too ALOT more than the creationist style ideas

If i were to reconvert, wake up one day and have god in my heart or wherever it is people find him, I cannot imagine I could disregard scientific finding - if anything I think I would probably just accept God/Creator as something that created something and set the whole world of biology/chemestry and physics in motion.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> It was only illustrating what has already been provided with scientifc evidence rather than an opinion based article.


And I was showing that pic is opinion based. It's one scientific theory of at least* two* that explain the same thing.



grumpy goby said:


> I am yet to see an unbiased peer reviewed article on ID that stands, most I have been presented are from heavily biased sources.


I wasnt yet putting ID forward as the only way for man to exist. Just punching holes in the picture you posted.



grumpy goby said:


> I have been given the religious schpeel as I was raised in a christian family and taught in a christian school 6-18. I have also done my own learning. And the evidence I have seen all points me towards evolution. Im yet to see an argument that steers me away from evolutionary theory.
> 
> IF there is a creator, then I still think it would have acted so early on to have acted as an evolutionary catalyst. But this is not something anyone can prove, so i err on the side of Atheism and Science.


My biggest problem with the idea of evolution is that we dont see it.
They use the argument of humans taking so long to develop from birth to death and generations as a reason.
We dont have that with bacteria, however. They can take as short as 12 minutes.
Given there are more bacteria on Earth than grains of sand, you should easily be able to see at least one strain evolve into something new but that never happens. They remain bacteria.
Just a thought. 

If you only look towards the Evolutionary school, then Evolutionary is all you'll find.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't understand why religion and science feel the need to put themselves at such opposing views. There are a lot of religious scientists who feel that by studying God's work they are honouring him but of course you have the religious people saying science is anti-god and Richard Dawkins and scientists like him thinking they have all the answers.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Spirited said:


> And I was showing that pic is opinion based. It's one scientific theory of at least* two* that explain the same thing.
> 
> I wasnt yet putting ID forward as the only way for man to exist. Just punching holes in the picture you posted.
> 
> ...


We've seen adaptation in action the example we were always given was a species of moth. They were the colour of a tree they rested on therefore they were hidden from predators. The industrial revolution comes and with all the soot the trees were no longer that colour. There was a mutation somewhere along the way that made their wings darker, those moths survived and passed on their genes and so the whole species changed. Once we cleaned up the air to a degree the process reversed.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Spirited said:


> And I was showing that pic is opinion based. It's one scientific theory of at least* two* that explain the same thing.
> 
> I wasnt yet putting ID forward as the only way for man to exist. Just punching holes in the picture you posted.
> 
> ...


Opinion based on findings and evidence..

We cant see it day to day as it is an incredibly slow process. But, Im sure I have heard before of virus strains becoming immune to vaccines/medicines? Is that not evidence of evolution?

Evolution is tiny changes to improve the advancement of a species, this has taken millions of years in the case of humans - we wont see it. We can see the progress jumps in fossils though - this is why the majority of the scientific community is drawn towards evolution.

If the scientific community one day turned around and said "there is xxx peer reviewed study, with substantial evidence towards intellegent design" then i may change my mind, as yet I have not seen such a statement.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sorry and remember I am religious BUT you don't believe in evolution because you can't see it but you believe in a god that no one except a few archangels has ever seen .


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> I don't understand why religion and science feel the need to put themselves at such opposing views. There are a lot of religious scientists who feel that by studying God's work they are honouring him but of course you have the religious people saying science is anti-god and Richard Dawkins and scientists like him thinking they have all the answers.


I agree! I even saw a debate on TV, a vicar was actually saying she loved scientific study of evolution as it actually enhanced her faith in her God who could create such a complex and intellegent world. 
She was then verbally attacked by some creationist in the audience who said she wasnt a proper believer ^^ :eek6:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

evolution for me means adaptation and surviving etc
I do pharmacy, I am taught about how viruses become immune to the drugs, bacteria gain antibiotic resistance etc and they evolve
I have seen many different strains of flu, slight differences but differences are there
that for me is evidence of evolving but it doesn't mean I cant believe in God too
science and religion very much co-exist in my life 
there are gaps in evolution but compared to when my mum was growing up there is a lot more evidence for it
and when my kids are growing up (if I ever have any that is) there will probably be a lot more evidence
we are forever learning new things about the world but through out God is a constant entity, there has always been a belief in a higher power of some sort, I don't think that will ever change


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> We've seen *adaptation* in action the example we were always given was a species of moth. They were the colour of a tree they rested on therefore they were hidden from predators. The industrial revolution comes and with all the soot the trees were no longer that colour. There was a mutation somewhere along the way that made their wings darker, those moths survived and passed on their genes and so the whole species changed. Once we cleaned up the air to a degree the process reversed.


Adaptation being the key word. They still remained moths.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Spirited said:


> Adaptation being the key word. They still remained moths.


and theres the galopogas (sp??) birds that were on two different islands and adaptations came about and the ones who failed to adapt died.. or something like that
I watched it on a documentary lol


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> Opinion based on findings and *evidence*..


The problem there is it's only *inferential* evidence and not direct evidence.
That is why the theories are constantly evolving (theres your evolution :laugh

The theory of evolution is as much a faith as ID in the fact there's no direct evidence to point to. Only assumptions based on findings that, over time, are generally replaced with more assumptions based on later findings.

It's a circular argument and can continue. There's no right answer here because each are based in beliefs and not concrete evidences.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

We are still evolving, sometimes even in a few generations. Adapting to our changing environment, diet, climate, pollutants. E.g our modern refined diet means we don't need such big jaws anymore, so wisdom teeth are no longer needed, that's why many people have problems with their wisdom teeth growing into an overcrowded jaw. I think a few hundred years hence, we will look quite different: smaller jaws, slighter bodies, less body hair, perhaps.

I also can't see why evolution cannot co-exist with peoples' belief in a divine power. E.g. the bible, we all know it was written by ordinary human men a few centuries after the supposed events took place. These guys didn't have the science or the language to describe how the world started, so they thumbsucked and made an allegoric tale about Adam and Eve. Nothing wrong with that. At the same time I really don't understand how many Christians actually really believe that there actually was an Adam and Eve, a serpent and an apple tree or that a guy called Noah really built an ark and put a pair of every living species on it  
I don't have a problem about what people believe as long as it doesn't encroach on my values and my life. I can understand that religion provides millions of people with comfort and reassurance. Is there anything wrong with that? I dislike ranting atheism as much as I dislike fundamental religion TBH.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

back to the original reason i started this thread, i guess its clear theres no other muslims but for you interested minds out there
today could be the last day of my fasting, as eid may be tomorrow but it hasn't been confirmed yet as could be Friday too
and i have a full day of exciting things happening
starting with Eid prayers, then going to visit my uncle, then my other uncle and his new born baby, then off to leeds to see my aunty and cousins then to wherever else i don't know

then finishing the night with some shisha with my sister
i will also eat at each place i go to and probably explode

so exciting lol


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Eid Mubarak, whatever day it falls on!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Eid Mubarak, whatever day it falls on!


why thank you


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

OP, perhaps you could answer a question for me. Some years ago, we went for a long weekend in Marrakesh and were told that it was the time of the Great Feast. There were dead sheep all over the place and everyone was eating mutton, but at the time someone said it was the end of Ramadan. But it was in the springtime, not August, either March or May, can't remember now.

So obviously it had nothing to do with Ramadan, but what was it all about?


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> OP, perhaps you could answer a question for me. Some years ago, we went for a long weekend in Marrakesh and were told that it was the time of the Great Feast. There were dead sheep all over the place and everyone was eating mutton, but at the time someone said it was the end of Ramadan. But it was in the springtime, not August, either March or May, can't remember now.
> 
> So obviously it had nothing to do with Ramadan, but what was it all about?


ok well, first of all Ramadan changes yearly it isn't fixed dates it depends on the moon etc 
when i was younger Ramadan was more towards December, i even remember Eid fell once on the 24th December

however with you seeing dead sheep i think you must have been there during the other eid ( we have two) one celebrates the end of Ramadan and the other eid originates from Ibrahim (Abraham) sacrificing his son to God, i do believe this story is in the old testament as well as the Quran
and so we sacrifice sheep to honour Ibrahim

however some places to sacrifice on both eids, my family in Pakistan only slaughter a sheep on the other eid so it could very well have been the end of Ramadan


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok well, first of all Ramadan changes yearly it isn't fixed dates it depends on the moon etc
> when i was younger Ramadan was more towards December, i even remember Eid fell once on the 24th December


Ive just seen where you are, I thought there was only one religion in Liverpool...

Football of course


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> Ive just seen where you are, I thought there was only one religion in Liverpool...
> 
> Football of course


bahahahaha i can not stand the glorious game of football but yes it outweighs all other religions by far XD
regardless of your skin colour religion and bla bla if you support the same team you are fine, support another and then the problems arise lol


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

merlin12 said:


> Like every other thread
> 
> OP, I have a doubt regarding what Howl said, I thought you coudn´t eat any meat that wasn´t Hallal? so can you go to a burgger?


Used to live in West Yorkshire we have every kind of Halal takeaway :cornut:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The information is very interesting  I didn't know much about Muslim religious holidays.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> The information is very interesting  I didn't know much about Muslim religious holidays.


I know many are away for Eidd and I know Emirates airways are top notch, their "taxis" are the only ones allowed right upto the BHX terminals


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## debijw (May 25, 2009)

Eid Mubarak S and L to you, your family and friends.


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## CatsDomino (Oct 10, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> you dont browse Youtube i take it then...


That's a miracle now? In the biblical sense? Amazing how none of those have been caught on camera, or otherwise proven. 



Colliebarmy said:


> Ok, so tell me...if you dont believe in a God (any God) whats your reaction when you know that truck is gonna hit your car, your child is missing, you fall and break your ankle, you find your pet dead at the side of the road, your job is lost when your employer goes bust, or when the pilot tells you the planes engines have blown up and its a long way down...
> 
> *OH GOD....*
> 
> ...


I don't ask for help from something that doesn't exist. Do you really want to debate lexicon with me? Your 'argument' is undermined by your fundamental misunderstanding of etymology.

You want your god to exist - prove it. You've had thousands of years and we're all still waiting. 



Spirited said:


> I guess that would depend on which negative needs to be proven. (eg God does not exist)
> 
> Science is *still* _looking for answers_ to prove their assertion of Evolution but can't seem to figure out how life formed initially. It has them completely at a loss to be quite frank.
> 
> ...


It wouldn't - no one would say 'god does not exist' unless someone had previously claimed the existence of such a being. The onus is on you to prove your assertion.

I also enjoy when an anti-science religionist thinks they've got a 'gotcha moment' with 'theory'. Evolution is a scientific theory, backed up by demonstrable evidence. Intelligent Design is a hypothesis with no demonstrable evidence at all.

The irony of you refusing to accept the demonstrable evidence for evolution, while believing while-heartedly in a god where there is no demonstrable evidence is not lost on me. I suspect, however, that it is lost on you.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

CatsDomino said:


> It wouldn't - no one would say 'god does not exist' unless someone had previously claimed the existence of such a being. The onus is on you to prove your assertion.
> 
> I also enjoy when an anti-science religionist thinks they've got a 'gotcha moment' with 'theory'. Evolution is a scientific theory, backed up by demonstrable evidence. Intelligent Design is a hypothesis with no demonstrable evidence at all.
> 
> The irony of you refusing to accept the demonstrable evidence for evolution, while believing while-heartedly in a god where there is no demonstrable evidence is not lost on me. I suspect, however, that it is lost on you.


First, there is no _demonstrable_ evidence. There are only assumptions (inference) based on findings. That is why the whole "theory" in the Theory of Evolution is constantly changing. 
They still can no more point to the origins _of life_ than you can prove there isn't a God that is responsible. 
Your attempt at a "gotcha" on what you think is lost on me is laughable. It boils down to faith.
Each is a faith. I have just chosen one over the other.


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## CatsDomino (Oct 10, 2012)

Spirited said:


> First, there is no _demonstrable_ evidence. There are only assumptions (inference) based on findings. That is why the whole "theory" in the Theory of Evolution is constantly changing.
> They still can no more point to the origins _of life_ than you can prove there isn't a God that is responsible.
> Your attempt at a "gotcha" on what you think is lost on me is laughable. It boils down to faith.
> Each is a faith. I have just chosen one over the other.


For it to be a scientific theory there has to be evidence (which there is, in spades, from everything from bacteria to foxes, from human eye colour to body hair). That is what distinguishes a scientific theory from a hypothesis which has no evidence to support it - I repeat there is absolutely no evidence for Intelligent Design which is why it is not a scientific theory.

'They' don't need to point to the origins of life because 'they' aren't claiming to have all the answers like you. 

Science looks for answers from evidence - it doesn't just claim that a magic being created everything.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Eid Mubarak boys and girls I hope today is a blessed day for you all regardless of what you think of my religion 
im off to spend the day eating too much that I have to roll home lol
it is the great feast after all


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> Denmark fasts 21 hours of the day due to how their sun light hours are :O


I once asked a muslim lady I knew about how the fast would work for people in the arctic circle where it's light 24 hours a day. She said if they fasted the hours it was light at Mecca, that was OK.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> We've seen adaptation in action the example we were always given was a species of moth. They were the colour of a tree they rested on therefore they were hidden from predators. The industrial revolution comes and with all the soot the trees were no longer that colour. There was a mutation somewhere along the way that made their wings darker, those moths survived and passed on their genes and so the whole species changed. Once we cleaned up the air to a degree the process reversed.


That has been looked at since at been disproven. The Peppered Moth naturally produces two colour forms, a light and a dark. This is also the case with many moth species, where colour is very variable and you have to to determine their species by wing shape, resting position and sometimes one or two regular markings that come through in most individuals. Look at the Ingrailed Clay as a prime example.

When the trees became dirty, it gave an advantage to the darker forms, they were more likely to escape predation but that doesn't mean the proportions of the different colour forms that hatched out were changed (which would have been an evolutionary change), just the survival rate for people to see and cook up theories about. When the air was cleaned up, the advantage swung back.

The Peppered Moth has no digestive system, living on fat reserves from when it was a caterpillar. So back to fasting......


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Spirited said:


> We dont have that with bacteria, however. They can take as short as 12 minutes.
> Given there are more bacteria on Earth than grains of sand, you should easily be able to see at least one strain evolve into something new but that never happens. They remain bacteria.
> Just a thought.


how is it then that bacteria like MRSA can now be 'immune' to some forms of antibiotic that are meant to kill them? seems to me they have evolved themselves.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

CatsDomino said:


> For it to be a scientific theory there has to be evidence (which there is, in spades, from everything from bacteria to foxes, from human eye colour to body hair). That is what distinguishes a scientific theory from a hypothesis which has no evidence to support it - I repeat there is absolutely no evidence for Intelligent Design which is why it is not a scientific theory.
> 
> *'They' don't need to point to the origins of life because 'they' aren't claiming to have all the answers like you. *


Did you type that with a straight face?
The theory of Evolution is, on one hand being presented as the only explanation based on this "spades" of evidence but then you say they dont have to point out the most important part because they arent claiming to have all the answers?

How is it then "they" are to be taken seriously about telling folks how life evolved when they can't even begin to tell how we were created in the first place?
In order to _show_ evolution there'd have to be proof of how it all started to _show_ that evolution.

At present, Evolutioners cant even agree on which is the supposed ancestor of humans. Australopithecine or Orrorin to name two. One is an argument against the other. Neither are definitive and both have a lot of "mays", "could be's" "tends to shows" etc. Both are "postulated" to be the evolutionary ancestor of humans based on a handful of fossils and a whole lot of guessing.
Not much in the way of "spades" as far as any one looking for answers is concerned.

For it to be Theory, there has to be a lot of guessing (general consensus) based on facts. Fact is they found fossils and cant even agree on which idea of what they mean is right.
For it to be theory it also has to falsifiable. Which has been shown over and over with each new round of explanations based on more erroneous findings which are still nothing more than educated guesses based on miniscule amounts of fossils.



CatsDomino said:


> Science looks for answers from evidence - it doesn't just claim that a *magic being created everything.*


No. They just say a _magic explosion_ created everything from nothing.
I'll keep praying to God. You keep praying to Darwin. 



CRL said:


> how is it then that bacteria like MRSA can now be 'immune' to some forms of antibiotic that are meant to kill them? seems to me they have evolved themselves.


Not evolved but adapted. Theres a distinction in those two words.
They are still MRSA just now they're immune to some forms of antibiotics.

We can become immune to snake venom if exposed to it enough but we are still human. 
If exposed to anything enough and not killed by it, creatures have a wonderful ability to become immune to it.

Im no scientist obviously. But given the choice of having faith in one idea over another, I've made my choice. 
Until Evolution can be _proven_ by science and the scientists themselves arent arguing amongst themselves about whose guess is right concerning fossils found, I'll just keep on embracing the faith that brings me comfort. (all the while keeping up on the latest discoveries. )


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

It's funny, I can only remember one other PF member expressing such blanket denial on evolution - exactly the same misunderstandings about how it works and why monkeys/apes still exist.
Weirdly, he held exactly the same views as regards denying racism exists too.

Odd. Almost improbable.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok here's how science goes. Someone comes up with a hypothesis say that species change over time through adaptation to their environment. They run experiments to try and prove or disprove it. They then publish their findings. Other scientists then run the same experiments or their own. That new information can prove or disprove the theory but it's always a theory and always changing and adapting.

We thought Newton's theory of gravity proved everything until Einstein noticed that one of the planet's rotation around the Sun was off from what gravity said it should be. Science is all about questioning even our long held theories and proving or changing them. Scientists should be open minded to change unfortunately you get some that convince themselves a theory is perfect and they can be very arrogant about it. No one is claiming evolution explains everything or that it's perfect just that it's the best explanation we have.

That's interesting about the peppered moths I'll have to go have a look at that again.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Eid murbarak shadow and lightening enjoy your day of feasting.


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

myshkin said:


> It's funny, I can only remember one other PF member expressing such blanket denial on evolution - exactly the same misunderstandings about how it works and why monkeys/apes still exist.
> Weirdly, he held exactly the same views as regards denying racism exists too.
> 
> Odd. Almost improbable.


Sorry now but what are my misunderstandings on how it works? 
As for your last bit if the other person who held similar views (perish the thought thered be two of us out there) was a "he" then youre definitely barkin up the wrong tree with your claim. :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> back to the original reason i started this thread, i guess its clear theres no other muslims but for you interested minds out there
> today could be the last day of my fasting, as eid may be tomorrow but it hasn't been confirmed yet as could be Friday too
> and i have a full day of exciting things happening
> starting with Eid prayers, then going to visit my uncle, then my other uncle and his new born baby, then off to leeds to see my aunty and cousins then to wherever else i don't know
> ...


I can highly recommend akbars on eastgate in leeds. Lovely indian food.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> Eid murbarak shadow and lightening enjoy your day of feasting.


Same from me too - hope you're having a fantastic day with lots of food and love


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Ok here's how science goes. Someone comes up with a hypothesis say that species change over time through adaptation to their environment. They run experiments to try and prove or disprove it. They then publish their findings. Other scientists then run the same experiments or their own. That new information can prove or disprove the theory but it's always a theory and always changing and adapting.
> 
> We thought Newton's theory of gravity proved everything until Einstein noticed that one of the planet's rotation around the Sun was off from what gravity said it should be. Science is all about questioning even our long held theories and proving or changing them. Scientists should be open minded to change unfortunately you get some that convince themselves a theory is perfect and they can be very arrogant about it. No one is claiming evolution explains everything or that it's perfect just that it's the best explanation we have.
> 
> That's interesting about the peppered moths I'll have to go have a look at that again.


My view is if evolution worked then women would have two pair of hands.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Spirited said:


> First, there is no _demonstrable_ evidence.


Yes there is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_long-term_evolution_experiment


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Robnsacha said:


> I can highly recommend akbars on eastgate in leeds. Lovely indian food.


i loveeeee akbars its amazing
go to the Manchester one every year for my birthday
going there tomorrow too actually 
managed to make me hungry again after just eating haha


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

lennythecloud said:


> Yes there is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_long-term_evolution_experiment


My apologies. Youre right.
They started the experiment with bacteria, and after 50,000 generations they are still producing bacteria.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

all that aside... my nephew aged almost 17 (aunty at age 4 me) up until today thought that the lump in his throat (adams apple) was called the callums apple because his name is callum
just incase anyone wanders, my mother is white Christian, she had a kid before meeting my dad also white and has four kids... im often asked why my nieces and nephews have English names so thought i would answer anyway

on further conversation with my nephew, he questioned why we have Aunt-sisters (ancestors) and not Aunt brothers 
has no idea about jesus other than he wore sandles, does not have a clue who Shakespeare is, although having muslim aunties thinks Islam is a country and Muslim is another name for God. Has never heard of the theory of evolution, doesn't have a clue what baptism is, only today heard the word bible, human cell division he has no idea about, stuff i did in year 9 hes never even heard of and the list goes on..

Now, hes just done his GCSES and is predicted high grades and is like in the top 5 in all his classes but i just wonder what they must be teaching the kids


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> i loveeeee akbars its amazing
> go to the Manchester one every year for my birthday
> going there tomorrow too actually
> managed to make me hungry again after just eating haha


There are only two things I miss about Manchester (apart from my friends, so that's three things really), and one of them is the food - you can eat in a different kind of restaurant every night of the week. There is a place in Rusholme that is amazing, it's dry, so it's all about the food and doesn't get the lager louts spoiling it, and does the most tasty lamb and ginger :drool:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

myshkin said:


> There are only two things I miss about Manchester (apart from my friends, so that's three things really), and one of them is the food - you can eat in a different kind of restaurant every night of the week. There is a place in Rusholme that is amazing, it's dry, so it's all about the food and doesn't get the lager louts spoiling it, and does the most tasty lamb and ginger :drool:


lol, have you ever been to any of the shisha places in rusholme? im quite an addict, we have ones in Liverpool but they aren't half as good lol
i love the food there, growing up we would go once a week and there would always be something new, and the indian sweet shops too

have you ever tasted paan?


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I personally will not fast if I am feeling sick, ill make up for it after Ramadan, a lot of muslims don't even realise they can do that XD
> but I know a lot of people still fast when sick and it does tend to portray the time in a negative light as though we must make ourselves feel worse but its not like that
> 
> there are plenty of places that serve halal meat I even have a halal kfc near me lol


Yup its the kind of caring conversation I have with my friend about it. I respect her commitment and although not a muslim I recognise that this is pressure she is putting on herself :frown2: luv her all the same. I find it sad because some people (regardless of what the faith is) will use it as a way to test themselves rather than nurture (physically/spiritually). Sad especially when it leads to extreme ends like leaving uni or getting worse etc. 
Happy Eid hope you are having fun x


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Howl said:


> Yup its the kind of caring conversation I have with my friend about it. I respect her commitment and although not a muslim I recognise that this is pressure she is putting on herself :frown2: luv her all the same. I find it sad because some people (regardless of what the faith is) will use it as a way to test themselves rather than nurture (physically/spiritually). Sad especially when it leads to extreme ends like leaving uni or getting worse etc.
> Happy Eid hope you are having fun x


yeah even though i am muslim i hate the way people do put their health second to fasting, and if they read properly about islam and Ramadan it isn't compulsory during times of illness but hey each to their own i guess

eid has been fun
i have a food baby now


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> i loveeeee akbars its amazing
> go to the Manchester one every year for my birthday
> going there tomorrow too actually
> managed to make me hungry again after just eating haha


oooooh I loooove Akbars!! Been once to the Manchester one, it's amazing! Want to go again now 

Hope you've had a lovely Eid, I get really excited for all my muslim mates when it's Eid, think I go on about it more than they do haha!!


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Tigerneko said:


> oooooh I loooove Akbars!! Been once to the Manchester one, it's amazing! Want to go again now
> 
> Hope you've had a lovely Eid, I get really excited for all my muslim mates when it's Eid, think I go on about it more than they do haha!!


Me too!! 
My friend said they used to do the same with christmas though and get really jealous when their friends at school had christmas. I have promised them that I will invite them around one day around christmas just so they can sit in a christmassy home :biggrin:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

i love the massive naan breads they do in akbars 
i had a crazy eid, only on eid am i expected to eat curry at 10am! 
i love food and all, but my Asian family will pile on the food at the same time as telling me i need to lose weight, pfft and every single house i went to "oh Shakila, you're getting so old now when will you look for a husband" oldddd?? im 21, none of them even got married till at least 25 

families ehh


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

I am married and my mates at uni are like so ..... when are you having babies....  suppose it's just wanting you to find someone special and be happy. 

You should try working at an old peoples home, talk about pressure to have kids no joke I am asked on a near daily basis when I will have children as though my purpose is that and only that. :skep:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> all that aside... my nephew aged almost 17 (aunty at age 4 me) up until today thought that the lump in his throat (adams apple) was called the callums apple because his name is callum
> just incase anyone wanders, my mother is white Christian, she had a kid before meeting my dad also white and has four kids... im often asked why my nieces and nephews have English names so thought i would answer anyway
> 
> on further conversation with my nephew, he questioned why we have Aunt-sisters (ancestors) and not Aunt brothers
> ...


When my daughter left school she did not know that Jesus Christ was a healer, and she went to a Church of England school (supposedly). Trouble is, they are all too scared of teaching christianity in case it upsets all the others, when in fact they are all just as interested. Personally, I do get annoyed that with this supposedly being a christian country, and our Queen supposedly being Defender of the Faith, there is very little christianity actually taught.

As to your nephew, he can be as clever as genius level, won't do him any good if he is not educated, same as everybody else. I know a fair bit about English history, others I meet know nothing. That doesn't make me cleverer than them, just more educated in that subject.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> lol, have you ever been to any of the shisha places in rusholme? im quite an addict, we have ones in Liverpool but they aren't half as good lol
> i love the food there, growing up we would go once a week and there would always be something new, and the indian sweet shops too
> 
> have you ever tasted paan?


Not been in them, no, there are quite a few in Rusholme. They always looked very 'male' places, I didn't know women went in there too. I had to google paan, so no I haven't


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> any other muslims on here waiting till they can eat and drink?
> two hours to go and my stomach is screaming lol


Be very glad that Ramadan (this year) isn't in June and you don't live in the Shetlands. 

21st June - Sunrise 03:39, sunset 22:34, daylength 18h 55m 39s.

Sunrise and Sunset for United Kingdom - Scotland - Lerwick (Shetland Islands) - June 2013

I've always wondered what a Muslim who is north of the Arctic circle or south of the Antarctic circle would do if Ramadan was in midummer (sun never sets) or midwinter (sun never rises)? At present the sun doesn't go down in Svalbard, Norway. The next sunset there is at 00:20 (20 past midnight!) on the 25th August, followed by sunrise at 01:41 and the next sunset at 23:51, all on the same day!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> I've always wondered what a Muslim who is north of the Arctic circle or south of the Antarctic circle would do if Ramadan was in midummer (sun never sets) or midwinter (sun never rises)? At present the sun doesn't go down in Svalbard, Norway. The next sunset there is at 00:20 (20 past midnight!) on the 25th August, followed by sunrise at 01:41 and the next sunset at 23:51, all on the same day!


when I was growing up fasting was in winter and was like, I just wouldn't eat in school then come home and eat about 5pm, the length is increasing a lot but ive no idea about muslims there, im sure someone else posted they follow the sunrise and sunset hours of mekkah but I don't know
it is a weird thing cause even between Liverpool and Manchester there is like a 3 minute gap, so im guessing even the whole UK is different

what really shocked me is a certain part of Africa was only 10 hours fast, it was around 18 here, I always associate Africa with sun so I learnt something new lol



myshkin said:


> Not been in them, no, there are quite a few in Rusholme. They always looked very 'male' places, I didn't know women went in there too. I had to google paan, so no I haven't


haha when I first started going you wouldn't see many girls but it is becoming more popular for girls too  its nice to have them available here in Liverpool too cause theres not many places her that aren't for drinking so its nice lol

I do quite like shisha, there is often some handsome men to stare at too, I currently have a major crush on the shisha maker guy in the Liverpool place


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> when I was growing up fasting was in winter and was like, I just wouldn't eat in school then come home and eat about 5pm, the length is increasing a lot but ive no idea about muslims there, im sure someone else posted they follow the sunrise and sunset hours of mekkah but I don't know
> it is a weird thing cause even between Liverpool and Manchester there is like a 3 minute gap, so im guessing even the whole UK is different
> 
> what really shocked me is a certain part of Africa was only 10 hours fast, it was around 18 here, I always associate Africa with sun so I learnt something new lol
> <snip>


Places on the equator have 12 hours light, 12 hours dark every day of the year, and places hear the equator have pretty mucht the same. That covers most of Africa and also the Arabian Peninsula.

Yes, times vary across the UK. The further north (higher latitudes) the longer the day in summer, and the shorter in winter. The further west the later sunrise and sunset are compared to somewhere further east on the same latitude.

For today:
Dundee (55.47N, 3W)- sunrise 05:29, sunset 21:04, daylength 15:35
London (51.52N, 0.1W) - sunrise 05:36, sunset 20:34, daylength 14:58
Bristol (51.46N, 2.6W) - sunrise 05:47, sunset 20:44, daylength 14:57

Each town used to have it's own local time based on sun time - when the sun was highest in the sky was 12:00. Then the railways came and with them the need for everywhere to be on the same time, regardless of when the sun said it was midday. I picked Bristol & London deliberately - the Great Western was the first railway to introduce railway time, and it ran from London to Bristol!

Railway time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personally I wonder what would have been said about fasting if the early Muslims had known about places with no daylight, or no darkness, during that month? Maybe all fasting would use the times at Mecca?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I have to ask (cos im me), if an Muslim couple have a row in the day now is it a.....

*Ramadam a ding dong?*

go on, laugh, you know you want to :biggrin:


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> I have to ask (cos im me), if an Muslim couple have a row in the day now is it a.....
> 
> *Ramadam a ding dong?*
> 
> go on, laugh, you know you want to :biggrin:


im gonna be honest and say... I don't get it


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> im gonna be honest and say... I don't get it


have you seen the film Grease?


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

CRL said:


> have you seen the film Grease?


nopeee


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> I have to ask (cos im me), if an Muslim couple have a row in the day now is it a.....
> 
> *Ramadam a ding dong?*
> 
> go on, laugh, you know you want to :biggrin:





Shadow And Lightning said:


> im gonna be honest and say... I don't get it





CRL said:


> have you seen the film Grease?





Shadow And Lightning said:


> nopeee


1080p HD Grease - We Go Together (Film Version) - YouTube


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

hard work this....

Ramadan

arguements - also called having a "ding dong"

rock n roll chorus - ram a dam a ding dong...

East meets West ...... lol


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> hard work this....
> 
> Ramadan
> 
> ...


never heard arguments be called a ding dong 
just reminds me of a door bell


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> never heard arguments be called a ding dong
> just reminds me of a door bell


Old East End (of London) phrase. Ding Dong can mean an argument "A right ding dong". It can equally mean a party, as when in the East End every Saturday night someone would drag a piano out into the street and all the neighbours would have a "ding dong".


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

I repeated it to my mum and she got it so that's one thing
but im not one for humour or jokes or anything like that, everything goes over my head, im one of them that is told a joke and just laughs, cause like the other people are laughing. Quite sad really lol.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I repeated it to my mum and she got it so that's one thing
> but im not one for humour or jokes or anything like that, everything goes over my head, im one of them that is told a joke and just laughs, cause like the other people are laughing. Quite sad really lol.


Of course you have no sense of humour...you're a woman.:001_rolleyes:


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## Spirited (May 20, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Old East End (of London) phrase. Ding Dong can mean an argument "A right ding dong". It can equally mean a party, as when in the East End every Saturday night someone would drag a piano out into the street and all the neighbours would have a "ding dong".


Those are some pretty innocent meanings for ding dong. Not gonna say what first came to mind. :tongue_smilie:

Oh, its also a cake over here.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

poohdog said:


> Of course you have no sense of humour...you're a woman.:001_rolleyes:


ive often been told when it comes to humour im just a league of my own, I will laugh at like a serious film yet a comedy I sit there with a serious 
face


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