# Border collie soiled our spare bed - seemingly out of spite!



## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

I know it's far-fetched, but I'm sure this evening my dog soiled and urinated all over our spare bed because she didn't like that I had both our cats on my knee.

She is 6 months old and quite naughty, very clever and jealous of our two cats. She is pretty much house trained and had just been outside to 'toilet' when both my cats climbed on my knee. My Border collie tried to push the cats off my knee and when I wouldn't let her she went up stairs. She has a drink in the bathroom so I thought she'd gone for a drink. I don't let her upstairs alone so I called her and she didn't come down. I went upstairs and she tried to run down stairs away from me as if she'd done something wrong. Then I noticed the smell. 

The spare bed, a goose feather duvet and our really good Tempur mattress, was covered in poo and wee. Not just an accident but eight separate patches of both spread all over the duvet from one corner to the other.

I don't hit her and I try not to shout at her but I did take her into the room and showed her and said: "What is that?" She pulled away and looked really ashamed. I'm afraid I have crated her and she's been in her crate now for 30 minutes. She hasn't been in her crate for over a month and I've never put her in there before. I don't know what else to do. If I don't do anything then I feel I'm giving her permission to soil our house wherever she feels like it.

She knows full well that she goes to the toilet outside. She was jealous of the cats and this really did seem like a deliberate temper tantrum. Does anyone have any thoughts or advice? She is a handful.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Are you sure she doesn't have an upset stomach and couldn't help it? Dogs don't do spite and she has no idea that is the reason why she is in the crate.


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Dandelion64 said:


> I know it's far-fetched, but I'm sure this evening my dog soiled and urinated all over our spare bed because she didn't like that I had both our cats on my knee.
> 
> She is 6 months old and quite naughty, very clever and jealous of our two cats. She is pretty much house trained and had just been outside to 'toilet' when both my cats climbed on my knee. My Border collie tried to push the cats off my knee and when I wouldn't let her she went up stairs. She has a drink in the bathroom so I thought she'd gone for a drink. I don't let her upstairs alone so I called her and she didn't come down. I went upstairs and she tried to run down stairs away from me as if she'd done something wrong. Then I noticed the smell.
> 
> ...


No, sorry, your collie really couldn't care less how much you paid for your tempur mattress.

Using a crate as a punishment is a misttake and the old fashioned 'what is/who done that' wont work either.

Get a hold of the book 'the culture clash' so you understand dogs better


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> Are you sure she doesn't have an upset stomach and couldn't help it? Dogs don't do spite and she has no idea that is the reason why she is in the crate.


I'm sure she doesn't have an upset stomach. The front door is open and she had only just come in.

Just to make it clear that I'm not being cruel to her, she has been exercised for two hours today (and every day) and also played frisbee in the garden for two more hours with me and our neighbour's little girl. She is tired and being in her crate is not a punishment for her or hurting her. It is the mildest and least painful thing I could have done - and I felt I had to do something.

I don't hit her or punish her and I only use positive training methods. I had another Border collie for 15 years until she died last year and I felt privileged to be her companion and I feel the same about this puppy. This puppy is, as I expected, very different from my other BC and she's frighteningly intelligent and more willful and dominant. She is running rings around me and I'm only asking for advice and help because I want to do what's best for her.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I don't have an issue with crating just stating that your dog doesn't link the crate to the soiling incident.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

nickmcmechan said:


> No, sorry, your collie really couldn't care less how much you paid for your tempur mattress.
> 
> Using a crate as a punishment is a misttake and the old fashioned 'what is/who done that' wont work either.
> 
> Get a hold of the book 'the culture clash' so you understand dogs better


Yes, thank you. I know she doesn't care about my mattress and I didn't mention how much I paid for it. I don't have many nice things and I was just feeling upset that the only nice things I have are now covered in dog mess. That's ok, isn't it - for me to feel that?

I do care about my dog more than about my things and I want to do what's best for her. She is fine in the crate and asleep. The door is open now and she's staying put.

I understand dogs in the main. I have always had dogs and I had a BC from a pup (9 weeks) until she was 15, as I said in my previous reply. I trained her myself and she was a delight. Thank you for the book recommendation. I will have a look at it.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> I don't have an issue with crating just stating that your dog doesn't link the crate to the soiling incident.


I know. Thank you. I didn't mean to be defensive. It's very kind of you to take the time to reply.

I think she knew what she was doing. I'm not angry at her but Border collies are different from other dogs and, if anyone here has got one they'll know what I mean, she is like a three year old child. She knows when she's being naughty and she definitely understands spite.

She sometimes pretends to stretch out to deliberately 'bump' one of the cats off the sofa. I've seen her do it.

Only Border collie owners will know about the incredible mind this dog has.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

At 6 months I'd not be that shocked at an accident. To prevent it in future restrict access to upstairs. I thought upset stomach as that is the only way mine would spread it out like that. I really don't think they do spite. My oldest dog is very clever and does jealousy/resource guarding. He has never been a lap dog and curls up to sleep next to me. My little yorkie is a lap dog. Since getting her he will now have times when he wants to be on my lap. If she is there he will go to sit on her so she has no choice but to move.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> At 6 months I'd not be that shocked at an accident. To prevent it in future restrict access to upstairs. I thought upset stomach as that is the only way mine would spread it out like that. I really don't think they do spite. My oldest dog is very clever and does jealousy/resource guarding. He has never been a lap dog and curls up to sleep next to me. My little yorkie is a lap dog. Since getting her he will now have times when he wants to be on my lap. If she is there he will go to sit on her so she has no choice but to move.


Hi, thanks for replying again and for your help.

I'm not shocked at the accident, as she has had them before if the door has been shut, but she has always gone in the same spot in the kitchen near the back door. It was really strange that she would go on the bed in the spare room - where the cats always sleep.

Perhaps spite was the wrong word. I thought maybe jealousy or tantrum because her behaviour was so shifty and ashamed. I don't know. I'll restrict her access to upstairs like you suggest.

Yorkies are so sweet! My friend has one and she's so small she can sit in your hand.

Thanks again for your help.
dx


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The spare room is generally the room in the house that least smells of the family. Not uncommon for a pup to toilet in there if they have access. I'd just put it down to one of those things and carry on as normal. Perhaps go back to basics on house training for the time being. Lots of opportunity to go out, lots of rewards for getting it right. It's not uncommon for house training to slip as a pup.

Another thing to consider if she's not been spayed is the possibility of her coming into season.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I'm no expert but maybe then she was doing it to cover the 'smell' of the cats? That could be why it was spread out. The best thing about little dogs is when they make a mess it is much easier to clean!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dandelion64 said:


> I know it's far-fetched, but I'm sure this evening my dog soiled and urinated all over our spare bed because she didn't like that I had both our cats on my knee.
> 
> *It is extremely far fetched, I am afraid animals do not do spite, only humans do, you are projecting on to your dog. Perfectly normal for people to do this, but a total waste of time because you are attributing human motives to a dog; dogs are not little people. They are animals with a much different view of the world than us.*
> 
> ...


My advice to you would be to read a book on how dogs learn and one about body language.

Your dog was not exhibiting "_shame_" (you have to have a sense of self to do this and dogs do not possess this ability) neither do they do guilt.

The dog was reacting to your body language which screamed "_I am really annoyed with you and I am going to punish you_"

You say you understand dogs but from your posts it would appear you have several key misunderstandings about them.

I think both you and your dog would benefit from you doing some further learning?

You say you only use positive training methods, hmmmmmmm.

Your dog is not dominant or wilful, just smarter than you and requires mental stimulation, not just physical fatigue. What activities do you do with her?

Border Collies are just dogs, they have a leg at each corner, the eat, they eliminate, they growl, bark, play, run etc etc the same as other dogs.

They have particular predispositions which make them more suitable for certain tasks but they are not any more or less difficult than many other breeds. 

Basically if your environmental management had been better, this would never have occurred so get a newspaper, roll it up, go to the mirror and beat yourself over the head with it whilst chanting "I must be more careful........" 

Good luck


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Dandelion64 said:


> Yes, thank you. I know she doesn't care about my mattress and I didn't mention how much I paid for it. I don't have many nice things and I was just feeling upset that the only nice things I have are now covered in dog mess. That's ok, isn't it - for me to feel that?
> 
> I do care about my dog more than about my things and I want to do what's best for her. She is fine in the crate and asleep. The door is open now and she's staying put.
> 
> I understand dogs in the main. I have always had dogs and I had a BC from a pup (9 weeks) until she was 15, as I said in my previous reply. I trained her myself and she was a delight. Thank you for the book recommendation. I will have a look at it.


Yet you took the time to mention it was a 'tempur' mattress. Do I have a car or a BMW? If my dog pooped in my Beemer would it be spite or would it just be a car with poop. The point is this, the mattress may hold value to you, especially if you don't have many nice things, but your dog is not capable of seeing it this way.

Taking the dog into the room and asking 'what's this?' and then crating the dog do not sound like positive techniques.

Please read the book I recommended. I promise you'll be enlightened and come back and chuckle at this thread later


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Please read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. 
It will explain how dogs `think`. 
They are not hairy humans. Try for a few minutes to think without words - that`s what a dog does. No agenda, not learned concepts, no morality, no guilt... 
Animals are not people. They do not chain logical sequences like `if I do this she`ll be punished and I`ll feel satisfied.` That is a uniquely Human way of looking at the world.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> My advice to you would be to read a book on how dogs learn and one about body language.
> 
> Your dog was not exhibiting "_shame_" (you have to have a sense of self to do this and dogs do not possess this ability) neither do they do guilt.
> 
> ...


 Brilliant post!!


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## WhatWouldSidDo (Nov 17, 2012)

The previous two posts from Smokeybear and Claireanddaisy tell you everything you need to know, there's nothing more I can add other than asking you to really take note of them.
It's really easy to just think "I know what I'm doing" and "I understand dogs" but at least try to take a step back and clearly evaluate the above posts. And if you buy the suggested book, you'll be glad you did


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Jobeth said:


> I'm no expert but maybe then she was doing it to cover the 'smell' of the cats? That could be why it was spread out. The best thing about little dogs is when they make a mess it is much easier to clean!


I think it's an important part of this incident that the cats sleep on this bed. It's normal dog behaviour for them to overmark the smell of other animals.

You can get the duvet and mattress professionally cleaned.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> The spare room is generally the room in the house that least smells of the family. Not uncommon for a pup to toilet in there if they have access. I'd just put it down to one of those things and carry on as normal. Perhaps go back to basics on house training for the time being. Lots of opportunity to go out, lots of rewards for getting it right. It's not uncommon for house training to slip as a pup.
> 
> Another thing to consider if she's not been spayed is the possibility of her coming into season.


I have done what you suggest, Sarah, and have gone back to basics with the house training. I'm also ignoring her and not giving her eye contact unless she comes when called or does as she's told, then she gets lots of fuss and treats. She's a lovely, spirited dog and less dependent on me than my last dog so I've had to adjust. My last dog would have been mortified if I'd looked at her with any hint of disappointment, this one doesn't care at all!

Having said that I do love her very much.

I have been waiting for signs that she's coming into season and haven't had any yet. But will keep an eye out now as you might be right.

It's good to have somewhere to share this stuff as it is really helpful to get other people's input. I do find the Internet a difficult place sometimes as people say things they wouldn't dream of saying in real life and I know I should be made of tougher stuff but I can't get used to it.

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such a helpful way.

Dx


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> I'm no expert but maybe then she was doing it to cover the 'smell' of the cats? That could be why it was spread out. The best thing about little dogs is when they make a mess it is much easier to clean!


I hadn't thought of that. I think you may be right. I've just ordered a stair gate from ebay so we won't have this problem again. :smile5:

The cats can have their space!


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

nickmcmechan said:


> Yet you took the time to mention it was a 'tempur' mattress. Do I have a car or a BMW? If my dog pooped in my Beemer would it be spite or would it just be a car with poop. The point is this, the mattress may hold value to you, especially if you don't have many nice things, but your dog is not capable of seeing it this way.
> 
> Taking the dog into the room and asking 'what's this?' and then crating the dog do not sound like positive techniques.
> 
> Please read the book I recommended. I promise you'll be enlightened and come back and chuckle at this thread later


I will read the book NicMcMechan, thank you.

With regard to the Tempur mattress I wasn't suggesting the dog would know the value of the mattress. Yes, I mentioned it but was pointing out that I was upset because these things are valuable to me. An entirely separate issue.

I'm not directly suggesting you're displaying inverted snobbery but your excessive focus on this part of my post and reveals more about you than it does about me! :001_tongue:


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Originally Posted by *smokeybear *
My advice to you would be to read a book on how dogs learn and one about body language.

Your dog was not exhibiting "shame" (you have to have a sense of self to do this and dogs do not possess this ability) neither do they do guilt.

*Yes, she does exhibit shame. She is my dog and, while I do like to read about dog behaviour, I like to use my experience of my own dogs to form my understanding of them rather than other people's ideas and theories. My dog does definitely exhibit shame and a range of other emotions 'experts' say dogs don't feel. She also, like my other two collies before her, recognises her own reflection in a mirror. I know this because if she's looking in a mirror and I put a toy behind her head she will see it in the mirror and then turn around to get it.

If I point at something, she also looks where I'm pointing and not at the end of my finger.

So called experts in dog behaviour are not always right. Each dog is different and all you can expect from learning from external sources and not your dog is a general overview.*

The dog was reacting to your body language which screamed "I am really annoyed with you and I am going to punish you"

*I was actually very gentle with her. *

You say you understand dogs but from your posts it would appear you have several key misunderstandings about them.

*Because your theories are correct?*

I think both you and your dog would benefit from you doing some further learning?

*Yes, you're right. We all need to continue learning about our dogs - mostly from them.*

You say you only use positive training methods, hmmmmmmm.

*Yes, I do. *

Your dog is not dominant or wilful, just smarter than you and requires mental stimulation, not just physical fatigue. What activities do you do with her?

*While I can't agree with you that my dog is smarter than me because this is just something that's obvously repeated from a book. Of course she's not smarter than me. She's a dog. She experiences a full range of emotions and she can outsmart me sometimes because I don't yet fully know her ways, but she's not smarter than me.

I'm well aware that she needs mental stimulation. I don't really know how you managed to deduce that because I mentioned she was tired and gets lots of exercise that she doesn't also get mental stimulation. *

Border Collies are just dogs, they have a leg at each corner, the eat, they eliminate, they growl, bark, play, run etc etc the same as other dogs.

*Ah, so not experienced with BCs then? Border collies are much much smarter than other dogs. (But still not as smart as humans)

Mind you, after saying all this about smartness, I guess it depends on your definition of what 'smart' is. *

They have particular predispositions which make them more suitable for certain tasks but they are not any more or less difficult than many other breeds.

Basically if your environmental management had been better, this would never have occurred so get a newspaper, roll it up, go to the mirror and beat yourself over the head with it whilst chanting "I must be more careful........"

Good luck

*Yes, my environmental management could have been better on this occasion, I agree. I had started to trust her enough to allow her more freedom around the house and this turned out to be a mistake. My mistake, yes, I conceed.

While there seem to be some nice people in this forum, in the main, it looks like it's going to be a pain in the arse to have to have everything I say jumped on and with so many negative presumptions when there is no possible way these judgements can be known or justified. I really don't have the time to defend my every word so I'll be off now. Shame as it would have been great to find a nice pet friendly, people friendly place to chat about my beloved Bluebell and my cats.

Bye

PS to whoever made the snidey remark about my dog's bowl being upstairs, the dog has ONE of her water bowls upstairs because she sleeps upstairs in my room with me. It's where her bed is and, no, I'm not changing this no matter who thinks its wrong to have a dog in your bedroom. She is a part of my family and I'm not shutting her in the kitchen at night.*


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> I think it's an important part of this incident that the cats sleep on this bed. It's normal dog behaviour for them to overmark the smell of other animals.
> 
> You can get the duvet and mattress professionally cleaned.


Yes, thanks Jobeth. I can see that the cat's smell might have been what she was trying to overmark.

I will get the duvet and mattress cleaned, although, it's not really the point of this and I was just expressing my own personal feelings of 'loss' of my most comfortable things.

Thanks for your very sensible non-judgemental replies. A wise person. You, I will admit, probably ARE smarter than me!

Bye. x


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

That one was burrowzig! Once you get used to this place you'll notice different styles of response although still useful advice. Hope you stay.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I wouldn't leave just because you don't like the tone of some peoples responses. There's a ton of good advice on the forum and people really are helpful, it's just that some are more blunt with their advice than others  Doesn't make it bad advice, it's just a case of taking what you can use and ignoring the tone sometimes.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I've often wondered about the 'sense of self' in dogs. It is said that babies do not have a sense of self until a certain age. To test this, a baby is put in front of a mirror with a mark on its face. Before the certain age, the baby does not react to the mark on its face as it thinks it is just looking at another baby, after the certain age, the baby becomes aware that the mark is on its face and will touch the mark.
I had noticed that one of my retrievers would sit next to me and look into the mirror and really look at me via the mirror. I proved this as the OP had with her dog by showing a toy behind her and she turned round to get the toy. Is this a "sense of self", I think it may well be.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm afraid that dogs do not have a sense of self, and neither do they recognise the dog looking back at them in a mirror is themselves. When you placed a toy behind your dog and she turned to get it, thats because dogs have a much greater range of sight than we do. Humans can only see 180 degrees, dogs see much wider than that, thus they can actually see some of what is going on behind them. If dogs have no sense of self, they are unable to feel shame.

Dogs are also not able to empathise and arent capable of making a link between their actions and how those actions affect others. Therefore they are unable to act out of spite.

There are many people on this forum who have border collies, myself included, and whilst they are, indeed, a very intelligent breed, they are not superdogs and do not have a more highly evolved brain than other breeds which enables them to feel spite, guilt or shame. They are just dogs like any other at the end of the day.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank you Jobeth and Sarah. I'm just a bit oversensitive and I get exasperated when people jump to conclusions and presumptions based on their own agendas and beliefs.

I'm not perfect, but I tend to make more positive assumptions and give people the benefit of the doubt. I'd ask a question before assuming someone doesn't look after their dog after reading a very short post from them about a single incident.

I'm left wondering how people pick and choose their ideas of the range of emotions a dog can feel. It seems a bit odd that dogs are said to feel some emotions, such as jealousy and love, but not others, such as guilt and shame.

Dog behaviour and psychology is extremely complex and not 'cut and dried'. They release many of the same hormones linked to emotion that we do (oxytocin, for example) which indicates their extensive range of emotions. They feel jealousy and react to it and this shows they are cognitively processing the situation and working out a way to bring it around to their advantage. This is high-level functioning and it does include emotions as complex as shame. Anyone who has ever had a dog and looked at it directly without being influenced by a book or a theory can see it experiences shame and even embarrassment. (cats definitely get embarrassed. Have you ever seen a cat fall off a windowsill - they will look around to make sure they weren't spotted and then pretend they meant to do it. 

You can't know all about your dog by reading a book or talking to an 'expert', any more than you can know your husband or your children by reading a sociology or psychology paper on human behaviour. All you can get is an opinion. 

It feels a little short sighted that someone would feel, from having read a book, that they can understand the motivations, emotions and behaviour of an individual dog when the reality is you can't make any more than a guess based on theory. To spout out these theories in a superior way as if they're absolute truths is just stupid.

I've got a lot to learn about my dog. I can read a book. I can talk to other dog owners and dog trainers, but she will be the one who shows me the way in the end. I hope to know her as well as I knew Myrtle, my dog before her.

It's nice to discuss things and ask for advice and to leave yourself open to learning from others, but when advice is given in such a condescending way that is designed for shaming (hit yourself over the head with a newspaper, for example - I see what they did there, very clever) just makes me feel I have to defend myself all the time which is boring and not very good for anyone. Also it distracts from the reason we're all here - to help ourselves make better lives for our pets!

So thank you to the people who were wise and kind and sensible. But the rest of you....! Go for a jog, do some yoga or kick boxing, don't take out your frustrations on other people you know nothing about.

Emotional overreaction over. Yes, I can see that I am as bad by my reaction. So will retreat and come back again at a later date because of your invitation. Thanks again.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I wonder how many papers you have actually written on all this supposed knowledge you have which appears to fly in the face of the latest research?

Why not give Professor John Bradshaw a ring with your findings, I am sure the scientific world is waiting for your exciting discoveries hitherto unknown to behaviourists and trainers................. ]

In fact I wonder why you are here at all?

Have you read Kelly's Theory of Personal Constructs?

If not, do. That would explain why you describe your dog as spiteful.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I forgot to say thanks for your response as it did provide me and a few others with a great deal of amusement.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Spiteful little Bluebell







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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Spiteful Bluebell with her mortal enemy








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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> I forgot to say thanks for your response as it did provide me and a few others with a great deal of amusement.


You're exhibiting some of your own personal constructs here Smokey. xxx


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## WhatWouldSidDo (Nov 17, 2012)

I also sometimes become over sensitive to the way people respond so I know the feeling.
You may not like the way Smokeybear responded, and she's not my biggest fan ether but her post is absolutely correct, other than the intelligence bit which I think was said, tongue in cheek. 
I really would consider it further rather than write it off because it annoyed you.

Good Luck

Edit: nice looking dog


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dandelion64 said:


> You're exhibiting some of your own personal constructs here Smokey. xxx


Absolutelyl, and I am not ashamed of it. 

You should be pleased to be able to amuse people is a wonderful thing.

You are certainly better at doing that than explaining dog behaviour.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> I wonder how many papers you have actually written on all this supposed knowledge you have which appears to fly in the face of the latest research?
> 
> Why not give Professor John Bradshaw a ring with your findings, I am sure the scientific world is waiting for your exciting discoveries hitherto unknown to behaviourists and trainers................. ]
> 
> ...


The latest research doesn't do it for me in the same way as it does for you. The word 'latest' speaks for itself. I'm sure in 10 years time the 'latest' research will be much different to what it is now. And 'professor' means nothing to me. I work closely with scientists and researchers and I know several professors and doctors and they're all fallible and as vulnerable to personal constructs as the next person - even in their research.

Research results are more often opinion and theory swayed to back up the opinion of the scientist than they are facts and truths. It's all subjective.

I didn't describe my dog as 'spiteful'. I said she MIGHT have behaved out of spite (or jealousy) on ONE occasion. I didn't label the dog as anything I was speculating about her motivation. Oh, I forgot, dog's can't have motivations can they?

Enough already! PLEASE!


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Forums are scary places aren't they?

Often people respond in a way that they may not if they were sitting face to face with you. Also sarcasm really doesn't come across well on a forum at all and people have varying senses of humor as well.

The advice is probably spot on (I know nothing about the ins and outs of dog behaviour) but sometimes it is a little insensitive, especially when it's something you are already feeling sensitive or emotional about.

I hope you and your BC are all ok.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Absolutelyl, and I am not ashamed of it.
> 
> You should be pleased to be able to amuse people is a wonderful thing.
> 
> You are certainly better at doing that than explaining dog behaviour.


I know you need the back up of others, Smokey, even if you're really only speaking for yourself and aren't as you like to portray off sniggering with others on the forum about me or my posts. Your motivation seems to be to humiliate me, which is very strange.

Please get out of my thread and don't bother to reply. You are extremely irritating and, unlike me, not amusing at all.:crazy:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't think dogs feel guilt or shame the way a human does. I think what people attribute to guilt or shame is simply the dog picking up on the fact the human isn't happy and so trying to appease them. I bet if you put some poo and pee on the bed yourself then brought your dog in, pointed it and said "what's this?" while acting the same way you did on finding her mess she'd react the same way she did when she'd toileted there. Hell, my dog "acts guilty" if I'm angry with my husband lol.

I have seen dogs appear to be embarrassed when they've done something stupid. I've had others who don't seem to notice or care.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

WhatWouldSidDo said:


> I also sometimes become over sensitive to the way people respond so I know the feeling.
> You may not like the way Smokeybear responded, and she's not my biggest fan ether but her post is absolutely correct, other than the intelligence bit which I think was said, tongue in cheek.
> I really would consider it further rather than write it off because it annoyed you.
> 
> ...


I haven't written it off. Just amazed at how weird people are online so got distracted from the actual subject. Thank you for your (nice!) reply.


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I don't think dogs feel guilt or shame the way a human does. I think what people attribute to guilt or shame is simply the dog picking up on the fact the human isn't happy and so trying to appease them. I bet if you put some poo and pee on the bed yourself then brought your dog in, pointed it and said "what's this?" while acting the same way you did on finding her mess she'd react the same way she did when she'd toileted there. Hell, my dog "acts guilty" if I'm angry with my husband lol.
> 
> I have seen dogs appear to be embarrassed when they've done something stupid. I've had others who don't seem to notice or care.


First of all, this is what a reasoned reply is - even though you are disagreeing with me, you are civilised and polite and expressing your opinion without trying to embarrass or shame me. Thank you for that.

I can see what you mean and I agree that if I had put some poo on the bed and said: "what's this," in an angry tone, she might have looked scared or ashamed, but she was looking guilty and ashamed and trying to run away from me even before I had seen or smelled what she'd done. Her odd behaviour - her looking guilty - was the reason I knew something was 'wrong'. So it's difficult for me, in this instance, not to figure out that she knew she'd done something wrong.

It's odd that she ran away from me because I've never grabbed her, never hit her or been violent to her in any way. I've shouted at her once when she ran into the road and that was a panic reflex and I couldn't help it.

Could your dog be feeling guilt when you are angry with your husband because she thinks she's done something wrong, even if at the time she can't figure out what it is that she's done?

It's still guilt, isn't it?

I don't know. I just don't believe that a researcher into dog behaviour can know a dog's individual nature or way of thinking. And the fact that it's all so widely accepted rings alarms for me as well. Look at our history for that!


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Pixieandbow said:


> Forums are scary places aren't they?
> 
> Often people respond in a way that they may not if they were sitting face to face with you. Also sarcasm really doesn't come across well on a forum at all and people have varying senses of humor as well.
> 
> ...


Yes, very scary  And addictive because even though I've said I'm off, I'm still here! I am too sensitive, always have been. Try not to be but I end up pretending to be hard, which is a lie.

We are all ok, thank you. Dog and cat actually sitting quietly together now. So nice.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

The brains of dogs have been researched and it is the size of certain areas of the brain, and lack of development etc, that tell scientists how a dogs brain functions.

I wonder if you have ever chastised your dog previously for soiling in the house, and she made the connection with what was on the bed and your previous responses, thus looking guilty? Whenever my dogs happen to soil on the mat in the night, they get no response from me, I just clean it up as they are accidents. As such, my dogs never look guilty or worried when I enter the room and see the mess on the floor.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Dandelion64 said:


> Yes, very scary  And addictive because even though I've said I'm off, I'm still here! I am too sensitive, always have been. Try not to be but I end up pretending to be hard, which is a lie.
> 
> We are all ok, thank you. Dog and cat actually sitting quietly together now. So nice.


That's good...I'm glad they are all happy and ok.

There's nothing wrong with being sensitive...after all the world would be an incredibly dull place if we were all the same.

You are right about scientists and researchers you know. I'm a midwife and...well babies have been born the same way for centuries right?...wrong


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> The brains of dogs have been researched and it is the size of certain areas of the brain, and lack of development etc, that tell scientists how a dogs brain functions.
> 
> I wonder if you have ever chastised your dog previously for soiling in the house, and she made the connection with what was on the bed and your previous responses, thus looking guilty? Whenever my dogs happen to soil on the mat in the night, they get no response from me, I just clean it up as they are accidents. As such, my dogs never look guilty or worried when I enter the room and see the mess on the floor.


You wouldn't necessarily even need to chastise them, all you'd need is to feel angry about and they pick up on that even if you're trying to hide it.

The problem with assuming that dogs feel guilt and "know they've done wrong" is that a lot of the time it ends up in a dog being treated very unfairly and punished for something when it has no idea what it's being punished for.

I don't think my dog is feeling guilty when I'm angry with my husband, I think he's worried because he knows I'm angry and tries to appease me so I don't hurt him (I never have hurt him but that makes no difference). I think worry is a very different emotion to guilt. And yes, my dogs have acted worried when they've done something wrong even before I've known about it. However, it's prior experience that makes them worried, not guilt imo. They associate say mess on the floor with a displeased human, they don't associate MAKING that mess with the human. If that makes any sense. I know what I mean but it's quite possibly clear as mud when I try to explain it lol.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Dandelion64 said:


> I'm sure she doesn't have an upset stomach. The front door is open and she had only just come in.
> 
> Just to make it clear that I'm not being cruel to her, she has been exercised for two hours today (and every day) and also played frisbee in the garden for two more hours with me and our neighbour's little girl. She is tired and being in her crate is not a punishment for her or hurting her. It is the mildest and least painful thing I could have done - and I felt I had to do something.
> 
> I don't hit her or punish her and I only use positive training methods. I had another Border collie for 15 years until she died last year and I felt privileged to be her companion and I feel the same about this puppy. This puppy is, as I expected, very different from my other BC and she's frighteningly intelligent and more willful and dominant. She is running rings around me and I'm only asking for advice and help because I want to do what's best for her.


Wow thats an awful lot of exercise for a 6 month old puppy, could she have just been too worn out to go outside to go to the toilet?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> I'm afraid that dogs do not have a sense of self, and neither do they recognise the dog looking back at them in a mirror is themselves. When you placed a toy behind your dog and she turned to get it, thats because dogs have a much greater range of sight than we do. Humans can only see 180 degrees, dogs see much wider than that, thus they can actually see some of what is going on behind them. If dogs have no sense of self, they are unable to feel shame.
> 
> *Dogs are also not able to empathise *and arent capable of making a link between their actions and how those actions affect others. Therefore they are unable to act out of spite.
> 
> There are many people on this forum who have border collies, myself included, and whilst they are, indeed, a very intelligent breed, they are not superdogs and do not have a more highly evolved brain than other breeds which enables them to feel spite, guilt or shame. They are just dogs like any other at the end of the day.


I'm not too sure about this. I've noticed that, as Ziggy gets slower and her sight's failing a bit, Kite can always get to the ball first. But sometimes, even though Kite's closer, she slows up or veers off so Ziggy can get to it first. Like she's making sure Ziggy gets a few 'goes'. I can't think of anything else to explain the behaviour. If that's not empathy....


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Oh dear, you need to get *yourself* to a trainer. Dogs ain't human and don't do things from spite, humans do that as you showed quite clearly by telling her off some time after the event when she wouldn't have a clue what you're on about.

Yes she may have looked guilty but speak sternly to any dog and it will, it goes by the tone of voice. Try it in the middle of a fun game and see how she responds the same. Second thought's perhaps not as she's likely confused enough as it is!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> I'm not too sure about this. I've noticed that, as Ziggy gets slower and her sight's failing a bit, Kite can always get to the ball first. But sometimes, even though Kite's closer, she slows up or veers off so Ziggy can get to it first. Like she's making sure Ziggy gets a few 'goes'. I can't think of anything else to explain the behaviour. If that's not empathy....


Lol, Spencer does something similar. Hubby is his preferred toy thrower as he can throw it further than me. But Spencer makes sure that every so often he brings his toy to me so I can give him a pathetic weedy little throw. Then it's back to hubby for a proper game lol.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dandelion64 said:


> I know you need the back up of others, Smokey, even if you're really only speaking for yourself and aren't as you like to portray off sniggering with others on the forum about me or my posts. Your motivation seems to be to humiliate me, which is very strange.
> 
> Please get out of my thread and don't bother to reply. You are extremely irritating and, unlike me, not amusing at all.:crazy:


I do not need the back up of anybody, if you do not like replies that do not agree with your particular outlook, then do not post on forums.

You started the thread.

Anyone who exercises a BC pup for FOUR HOURS in one day, obviously needs professional help.

You need no help with regard to public humiliation, you have successfully achieved that all by yourself and demonstrated more than adequately your lack of skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience plus your limitations.

You may make all the assumptions you like, that is your prerogative.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294813/Study-reveals-humans-read-dogs-facial-expressions.html

A study about human interpretation of dog expressions...Seemed appropriate


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> The brains of dogs have been researched and it is the size of certain areas of the brain, and lack of development etc, that tell scientists how a dogs brain functions.
> 
> I wonder if you have ever chastised your dog previously for soiling in the house, and she made the connection with what was on the bed and your previous responses, thus looking guilty? Whenever my dogs happen to soil on the mat in the night, they get no response from me, I just clean it up as they are accidents. As such, my dogs never look guilty or worried when I enter the room and see the mess on the floor.


Hi Leanne,
Nice to hear from you. My house training has been very precise and I've been following this book Housetraining Success Formula: 6 Simple Steps to Housetraining Your Puppy or Dog (Really Simple Dog Training) eBook: Carol Miller: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store. So if she has soiled anywhere (mainly the kitchen and once the top of the stairs) I have totally ignored it. I reward her every time she does it outside with either a treat or a little walk around the square.

Neuroscience is by no means a way of predicting a dog's (or a human's) psychology or personality. It is guesswork. Science is mechanics and neuroscientists don't even know what consciousness is. To learn what scientists have deduced from studying the brains of dogs is a really good thing but to take that on as absolute and to believe the ideas and theories of the scientist as 'fact' is really never a good idea.

A few years ago scientists thought (and some still do think) dogs don't dream. A few years before that scientists thought dogs were like robots, with no emotions or sentience. (Rene Descartes used to cut conscious living dogs up and stick his fingers inside their hearts because it was believed they couldn't feel.)

I never take what scientists say at face value. I try, as much as I can, to question everything and apply it to experience and work out what I think.

Look at this, for example: Border collie comprehends over 1,000 object names as verbal referents

BC owners already know most of this - before the scientists 'discovered' it, because they live with the dogs and they have their own science lab. Dog people know their dogs better than scientists do.

Take the last bit of the study. It says: "This work encourages research into how the historical relationships between humans and dogs may have influenced the abilities of dogs to communicate with humans, and whether this influence is unique to dogs."

There is so much more to the way a dog thinks/reacts/behaves and its wants and needs and motivations than brain function. This last sentence says plainly that the dog's abilities have been influenced by a long relationship with humans, so this is at least possible.

I believe that over the 100,000 years or more that humans and dogs have hung around together that dogs have become more like humans in lots of ways. We even share facial expressions with the dog. The domestic dog is not like a wolf. It has moved on.

I am really not professing to know everything about dogs, I don't at all. I've got a lot to learn. But I don't want to limit my expectations of my dog by thinking I understand her motivations totally by believing what someone who has studied a dog's brain says.

Again, thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I've gone off on a rant here - forgive me, it's not directed at you in any way. I can't stop myself! :crazy:


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## Dandelion64 (Aug 11, 2010)

For God's sake - for those weird people determined to destroy any chance of civilised conversation by combing my sentences looking for something that will give them the opportunity to throw insults at me - here, for the last time, I will elaborate on what I've said to dissolve your negative assumptions!

Where I said my six-month old BC puppy had been walked and played with for a total of four hours, here is a breakdown of her time spent:

1 hour walking to my dad's house for breakfast. Leisurely walk down the canal with two stops (to feed the ducks, and to sit on a bench).

2 hours at my dads having breakfast (dog is fed and watered)

1 hour walk back from my dad's house (with similar stops).

3 hours dog is resting. One hour in her bed asleep. The rest of the time she is restless and wants to play so I fill her kong with some food and she spends some time digging it out. Then I give her her football which she runs around the garden with. She is getting bored and looks a bit sulky for about half an hour as we clean the kitchen.

2 hours - my neighbour's little 4 year old girl comes round and plays with the dog in the garden. This involves a frisbee game mostly. She is 4! She can throw the frisbee for about three feet. The dog is happy and playing and not running, jumping or going long distances. She is chewing, fetching, digging - HAPPY. OCCUPIED, MENTALLY STIMULATED.

After the girl has gone home the dog still wants to play. We normally hide treats around the house or play hide the toy or play one of the games out of our Brain Games for Dogs book but we are busy so we let her entertain herself with her toy box.

I must stress - we aren't always too busy to entertain her. We give her a great deal of time and attention but not 100 per cent of our time.

Is this ok with everyone?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just my two cents...

I agree with the majority here that dogs do not feel shame or guilt. I believe it is impossible for them to do so becuase they have no moral code (ie no concept of "right" or "wrong") and also because they have little to no understanding of human behaviours / morals / values etc.

So in this particular case, all the dog actually did was to urinate and defecate. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with toileting. As the dog is a dog and not a human, she does not understand the overal concepts of indoors versus outdoors, nice things or cheap disposable things, etc. She has no way of knowing that peeing on the spare bed is inherently "wrong" from a human perspective, or that doing so would annoy or spite you. Thus there is no way she could have deliberately chosen to do so out of site or jealousy.

(That's not to say I don't believe in jealousy in dogs - just that its a massive jump from "dog jealous of attention the cats are getting" to "dog deliberately peed on the bed to get back at me".)

I hope that makes sense...

I think the reason many people get so uptight when people use this sort of terminology is that (as someone has already mentioned) it is frequently used as a good excuse to punish a dog unfairly. Assume the dog "knows it did wrong" and you feel justified in punishing it.

The other issue here is that your response (taking her to the room to tell her off, however mildly) was what we term "atfer-the-fact punishment". In other words it occured after the behaviour, not during. As dogs do not understand human values, and do not speak English, the dog can not possibly understand that your behaviour and mood related to her act of peeing on the bed. Your actions, including crating her, can therefore not possibly teach her anything about messing on the bed, because you didn't catch her "in the act".

Imagine someone walked up to you and made a gesture of displeasure - however mild - in a different language. You would probably realise they were upset, but you'd have no idea why. The same principle applies here.

I know you're not into the science but I believe one experiment was done regarding this specifically. The dogs were left alone for a period, then the owners were sent back in. (I can't remember what the unwanted behaviour was which doesn't help lol). The owners who were told their dogs had misbehaved all claimed their dogs looked guitly- even though this was not actually true. They saw guilt only because they expected to. As others have said, this would also explain why dogs appear to show those same "guilty" behaviours in other situations, such as when someone else is being toldoff or their owner is otherwise annoyed about something else entirely.

The problem is that what many people interpret as guilt or shame are actually the behaviours associated with either appeasement, calming or even fear. But just because something looks like guilt, doesn't mean that's what it is.

Back to the original point....

It may just be a straightforward lapse, or related to the smell of the cats on the bed, or any number of other reasons. I would agree using a stairgate to prevent unsupervised access would be useful (nothing wrong with the dog sleeping in the bedroom - just easier if she can't sneak off up there if she's not 100% trustworthy). Its just a matter of setting her up to succeed and preventing mistakes. Might also be worth reinforcing the basics of housetraining a bit more too, maybe the odd treat when you see her toileting outside.

Please don't leave the forum. It's a useful and generally friendly place, but not everyone always agrees and people have different posting styles that can come across as abrupt. It's nothing personal, just take what you can from it.


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