# UK General Election, Dec 2019



## KittenKong

A poll to see who you are voting for.

I'm voting tactically for where I live.

Moderators- please correct the Plaid Cymru typo. Thanks!


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## cheekyscrip

I can’t vote :Banghead


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## Guest

I cannot vote being a national of another country. Plus I wouldn't disclose who I would be voting for if I was allowed to vote as that is private in my point of view.


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## mrs phas

whom i will give my cross to is no ones business except my own


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## cheekyscrip

mrs phas said:


> whom i will give my cross to is no ones business except my own


Surely the poll is anonymous?
Plus the thread is for fun and no one needs to participate in any poll here or anywhere else?
No one needs to disclose.

Honestly posting just to say you don't want to post is pretty pointless and IMO offhand.

KK just posted it as our pet forum fun poll and if not interested?
Sit it out.

There are different polls on pf and who is not interested does not need to voice it as if had to participate.

Yes, it is our private opinion etc.. which we can share or not on pf.
Same as a poll on for example feeding raw, letting cats roam or choosing the colour of our bathroom or chocolate flavour.

There is nothing wrong with this poll more than any other.
Don't spoil the fun if not interested.

Frankly I am really not interested in anyone posting just to say they will not post/answer on such and such thread/poll etc...while they can simply post nothing at all.

Thus saving my time.


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## kimthecat

Undecided . Probably greens


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## mrs phas

cheekyscrip said:


> Surely the poll is anonymous?
> Plus the thread is for fun and no one needs to participate in any poll here or anywhere else?
> No one needs to disclose.
> 
> Honestly posting just to say you don't want to post is pretty pointless and IMO offhand.
> 
> KK just posted it as our pet forum fun poll and if not interested?
> Sit it out.
> 
> There are different polls on pf and who is not interested does not need to voice it as if had to participate.
> 
> Yes, it is our private opinion etc.. which we can share or not on pf.
> Same as a poll on for example feeding raw, letting cats roam or choosing the colour of our bathroom or chocolate flavour.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this poll more than any other.
> Don't spoil the fun if not interested.
> 
> Frankly I am really not interested in anyone posting just to say they will not post/answer on such and such thread/poll etc...while they can simply post nothing at all.
> 
> Thus saving my time.


You are not the posting police, so I will carry on posting when I wish
As for posting nonsensical posts that waste time



cheekyscrip said:


> I can't vote :Banghead


Pointless post numero uno



saartje said:


> Plus I wouldn't disclose who I would be voting for if I was allowed to vote as that is private in my point of view.


Just pointing out ( no offence @saartje ) that whilst I was not the only one to post about privacy, and also not the first
You @cheekyscrip, decide to quote me, and only me, which, if I were a total bitch, I could construe as bullying, especially with the, implied, tone and manner of your post
But
I'm not
So hopefully I've just irked you by wasting even more of your time instead


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## Lurcherlad

None of the above!

I think we stand a better chance with Screaming Lord Such and The Monster Raving Loony Party - sadly, not standing in my area 

Seriously though, I will vote - too important not to. I do not want a Labour Government and the Lib Dem’s have made it clear they will not honour the Referendum so they can shove it too.


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## cheekyscrip

I can’t vote but if I could it will not be Lib Dem after that speech.
So TMRL .


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## Guest

My concern with this poll is that anyone can see who has voted for which party by clicking on the vote number next to the option. I chose UNDECIDED to demonstrate that I can see who else has chosen this option to (remember I am unable to vote in the United Kingdom and I would not actually reveal who I would actually vote for if I was allowed to vote as I believe that is private and my business).


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## Guest

mrs phas said:


> ( no offence @saartje )


No offence taken.


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## Magyarmum

Lurcherlad said:


> None of the above!
> 
> I think we stand a better chance with Screaming Lord Such and The Monster Raving Loony Party - sadly, not standing in my area
> 
> Seriously though, I will vote - too important not to. I do not want a Labour Government and the Lib Dem's have made it clear they will not honour the Referendum so they can shove it too.


I feel the same way as you!

For me though its totally academic as I can't vote anyway.


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## Cleo38

Yet again I can't vote as I don't support any of them …. I know people will say I should & in some ways I agree but I honestly can't give my support to any of them. I was previously a labour supporter & then Tony Blair came along …. 

I honestly thought JC might be what the labour party needed but how wrong was I?!!


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## Bisbow

The one thing I am sure of is that my vote will not go to that self serving, two timing sleazy abject apology of a man Jeremy Corbyn
I would not spit in his face if his beard was on fire


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## havoc

If ever there was an election where national polls are a waste of time this will be it. Sweeping, countrywide generalisations will be utterly pointless.


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## Happy Paws2

I'm vote Labour, not that there's have chance I live in tory country and I can't see it changing.


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## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> The one thing I am sure of is that my vote will not go to that self serving, two timing sleazy abject apology of a man Jeremy Corbyn
> I would not spit in his face if his beard was on fire


That's just what I hate about general elections people getting get nasty and insulting, it only cause trouble and I think there has been enough of it this most of it from BJ in the House of Commons.


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## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> There is nothing wrong with this poll more than any other.


Except KK has made it a public vote. If any poll should be private this is it. Even if you aren't logged in you can still see who voted for what 

You have to ask why?


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## Siskin

rona said:


> Except KK has made it a public vote. If any poll should be private this is it.
> 
> You have to ask why?


Yes I wondered that too, which is why I will not be participating.


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## Happy Paws2

I really don't care who knows which way I vote and I think everyone on here already knows anyway.


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## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I can't vote :Banghead


That's so unfair as far as I'm concerned, I was appalled they agreed to this election without ensuring EU citizens with settled status couldn't vote.



Cleo38 said:


> Yet again I can't vote as I don't support any of them …. I know people will say I should & in some ways I agree but I honestly can't give my support to any of them. I was previously a labour supporter & then Tony Blair came along ….
> 
> I honestly thought JC might be what the labour party needed but how wrong was I?!!


I support the SNP, but I cannot vote for them! Just that little bit too far South unfortunately.

I wouldn't worry too much about Corbyn, he's well into his '70s so would serve no more than one term in the extremely unlikely event he would win. He would have no choice but to stand down if he loses anyway.

At times like this, we have to consider the next best alternative. As Cheeky said this is just an anonymous question and answer thread in the main, but I will give my personal point of view:

Priority for me is either Revoking Article 50 or at least honour another public vote on the negotiated Brexit deal with an option to remain on the ballot paper.

Both the Lib Dems and Labour respectively, the latter quite recently, are offering those options.

Where I live a vote for the Greens and Lib Dems are wasted. The battle here is between the Tories and Labour.

So my vote must go to Labour.

With respect, regardless of your own personal opinions and it is no business of mine to ask what they are, I urge you to re-consider and choose your least worse option.


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## MilleD

So your vote in a General Election is based purely on the one Brexit issue?

And our personal opinions don't matter as long as we agree with you? Surely our personal opinions dictate what we consider to be our 'least worst option'?


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## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> I support the SNP, but I cannot vote for them! Just that little bit too far South unfortunately.
> 
> So my vote must go to Labour.


That's just how I feel, I'd would vote for Ian Blackford if I could.


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## KittenKong

rona said:


> Except KK has made it a public vote. If any poll should be private this is it. Even if you aren't logged in you can still see who voted for what
> 
> You have to ask why?


I didn't realise that, I thought no one could see who they voted for? That was the idea anyway.

The idea was to split this from the main Brexit thread as it's off topic to that one.

*Moderators- *Would it be possible to amend this thread to a private one, or just delete the whole thing if that's easier?

Thanks, and my apologies for the slip up.

I appreciate you letting us know Rona.


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## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's just how I feel, I'd would vote for Ian Blackford if I could.


I think he's brilliant. Never keen on Alex Salmond though.

Nicola Sturgeon is also excellent I think.


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## SusieRainbow

Can I suggest that if you don't want your poll vote public you don't vote ? It's not compulsory.


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## Cleo38

KittenKong said:


> That's so unfair as far as I'm concerned, I was appalled they agreed to this election without ensuring EU citizens with settled status couldn't vote.
> 
> I support the SNP, but I cannot vote for them! Just that little bit too far South unfortunately.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about Corbyn, he's well into his '70s so would serve no more than one term in the extremely unlikely event he would win. He would have no choice but to stand down if he loses anyway.
> 
> At times like this, we have to consider the next best alternative. As Cheeky said this is just an anonymous question and answer thread in the main, but I will give my personal point of view:
> 
> Priority for me is either Revoking Article 50 or at least honour another public vote on the negotiated Brexit deal with an option to remain on the ballot paper.
> 
> Both the Lib Dems and Labour respectively, the latter quite recently, are offering those options.
> 
> Where I live a vote for the Greens and Lib Dems are wasted. The battle here is between the Tories and Labour.
> 
> So my vote must go to Labour.
> 
> With respect, regardless of your own personal opinions and it is no business of mine to ask what they are, I urge you to re-consider and choose your least worse option.


My least worse option then would be the Tories who I simply couldn't vote for. For me, the Brexit issue is why I can't vote for the Labour party. I voted to remain but IMO (& I don't want to turn this in to a Brexit thread … honestly!!) there shouldn't be another referendum, we've had one & we should just get it done. I also cannot bear the hard left who seem to be taking over now.

But …. I can't vote for the Conservatives as I disagree with a lot of their policies regarding the environment, workers rights, etc.

As a side note I also don't understand why people are so cagey about who they vote for. I risk the wrath of many people by telling them I haven't voted before & probably won't vote again this time. It's my opinion & my right not to so am not sure why people get so upset about what others choose to do.

Maybe the poll should have a 'I'm not bothering' option


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## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> Screaming Lord Such and The Monster Raving Loony Party


 The Church of the Militant Elvis sounds interesting. There is also a ''Fancy Dress Party''. No, seriously, the thought of Corbyn horrifies me, it's got to be Cons. 
ETA: That's if I can be bothered to vote at all (in the light of recent events after the 2016 so-called ''democratic'' vote).


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## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> surely the poll is anonymous?


Right: surely you can do the poll without admitting that you are voting for the Miss World party. No-one's going to get arrested?

ETA: Apparently it's not anonymous? Not that it concerns me, I'm not bothered as I have posted whom I will vote for (assuming that I vote, which is not 100% definite).


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## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> Maybe the poll should have a 'I'm not bothering' option


After the fiasco of the referendum result, a lot of people could relate to the ''I'm not bothering'' option. I know a lot of people who won't bother, people who have voted conscientiously all their lives, and TBH I'm not sure if I will bother either.


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## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> The Church of the Militant Elvis sounds interesting. There is also a ''Fancy Dress Party''. No, seriously, the thought of Corbyn horrifies me, it's got to be Cons.


Can you imagine if Jo Swinson was elected PM.

She'd most likely commandeer the Royal coach for the opening of Parliament and demand a coronation


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## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So your vote in a General Election is based purely on the one Brexit issue?
> 
> And our personal opinions don't matter as long as we agree with you? Surely our personal opinions dictate what we consider to be our 'least worst option'?


Actually, yes it is. Brexit will change our lives like never before, for many of us including myself it'll be a change for the far worse with future and retirement dreams shattered. I give the same argument to the pro Corbyn lobby who argue it's not that important.

Surely, the Farage party have only one policy- Brexit and, like Theresa May, Johnson wants a mandate to deliver Brexit as priority so this election is indeed about Brexit.

As this is not a Brexit thread, I'll withold further comment. There's another thread for that!

Sorry, but your second paragraph is a bit silly. The only criticism, if you can call it that, I gave was about not voting at all. I suggested to vote for* their *least worse option, giving *my *own personal reasons without asking others for theirs.

It would be no business of mine had the OP been a Brexit or Remain supporter.


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## Cully

I will vote, always do, but this time I'm completely unable to decide. We have been lied to from the offset regarding Brexit and the shambles since then has turned UK into a world wide laughing stock.
Everyone I speak to is undecided too. The trust has completely gone and everyone is afraid of making a poor choice with dire political consequences.
The problem is that if people choose to abstain, election results will not be a true representation of the electorate!
The whole business is confusing to say the least.


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## havoc

KittenKong said:


> Actually, yes it is. Brexit will change our lives like never before


You are a Boris dream then as it's in his interests to make the election all about Brexit. The nightmare for the Tories is those voters who refuse to make it a single issue election because they can't be read easily. There are those who voted leave but won't have it as their main issue in a GE - think strong leave areas where the electorate has been disproportionately and adversly affected by Universal Credit, bedroom tax etc. There will also be the opposite traditional Labour voters who voted remain but will vote otherwise because of the Corbyn effect......... and every other possible permutation

May tried to make the 2017 election a Brexit only vote and failed miserably. If anything the electorate is even more factionalised in even more ways this time round.


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## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Can you imagine if Jo Swinson was elected PM.
> 
> She'd most likely commandeer the Royal coach for the opening of Parliament and demand a coronation


Her voice is dreadfully annoying - like Hillary Clinton.


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## Calvine

Cully said:


> I will vote, always do, but this time I'm completely unable to decide. We have been lied to from the offset regarding Brexit and the shambles since then has turned UK into a world wide laughing stock.
> Everyone I speak to is undecided too. The trust has completely gone and everyone is afraid of making a poor choice with dire political consequences.
> The problem is that if people choose to abstain, election results will not be a true representation of the electorate!
> The whole business is confusing to say the least.


True, if you bear in mind that turn-out is normally rather low for any election (referendum I believe was considered a ''good'' turnout with about 72%) so if people don't vote this time, it will be way down. I believe that last GE had a turnout of 67%? Two thirds of the voting public.


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## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's just what I hate about general elections people getting get nasty and insulting, it only cause trouble and I think there has been enough of it this most of it from BJ in the House of Commons.


It is not nasty and insulting, it is the truth
He changes his mind to suit the current situation, he fence sits and waits to see what way the wind is blowing
Trust and loyalty are words not in his vocabulary


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## kimthecat

SusieRainbow said:


> Can I suggest that if you don't want your poll vote public you don't vote ? It's not compulsory.


Good point but people voted thinking it was anonymous . It should have been made clear it wasnt. 
I tend to vote in pf polls but did not know that my name could be seen.


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## kimthecat

This is really just another brexit thread.


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## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Good point but people voted thinking it was anonymous . It should have been made clear it wasnt.
> I tend to vote in pf polls but did not know that my name could be seen.


I don't think many people knew (including people who have started some).


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## SusieRainbow

kimthecat said:


> Good point but people voted thinking it was anonymous . It should have been made clear it wasnt.
> I tend to vote in pf polls but did not know that my name could be seen.


I see it's been edited to state that it's not anonymous now, though I couldn't see any identities in the poll.
Happy to delete if that's what people want.


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## StormyThai

SusieRainbow said:


> I see it's been edited to state that it's not anonymous now, though I couldn't see any identities in the poll.
> Happy to delete if that's what people want.


Hopefully I have made the poll anonymous now?


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## SusieRainbow

StormyThai said:


> Hopefully I have made the poll anonymous now?


Yes,it appears to be.


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## Jesthar

My area is a die-hard Conservative area, so there's not many options. Can't vote for them myself, obviously (my motto for all elections at the moment is 'Any Vote But Tory'), but it's a pretty safe seat. No idea who the alternatives will be.

I won't rule out Labour given that no-one else stands a chance, but i'm sorely tempted just to write 'Nuts to the lot of you' across the whole form and be done with it. They have to count and return spoiled ballots, so it IS worth the effort to do that if there is no-one you want to vote for, because that way you are at least counted.

And with apologies for mentioning the B word, but unfortunately it is relevant to this GE as if the Tories win they will claim it as a mandate to do Brexit in whatever fashion they please, despite the obvious fact a GE is supposed to be about ALL policy politics, not a single issue. It's how he's hoping to get his majority back.


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## Calvine

StormyThai said:


> Hopefully I have made the poll anonymous now?


 Is that to be the case with all future polls too?

ETA: Received a reply to this.


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## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Is that to be the case with all future polls too?


Depends on what options you pick when you post a thread with a poll - so, dealers choice.


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## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> It is not nasty and insulting, it is the truth
> He changes his mind to suit the current situation, he fence sits and waits to see what way the wind is blowing
> Trust and loyalty are words not in his vocabulary


And bj has never lied, he has lied his way all though brexit, all the imagined money for the NHS one lie after another.


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## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Depends on what options you pick when you post a thread with a poll - so, dealers choice.


Thank you.


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## Tawny75

I will vote, I always do. I live in staunchly Conservative area so I know that even with my MP standing down it will be another Conservative that is parachuted in as it is such a safe seat. 

I willnot say who I am voting for as that is a private matter, however I could not vote Conservative through personal choice, not just Brexit.


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## havoc

Apparently the Tory 'target' voter is Workington *Man *- a working class Conservative voter in his sixties who voted leave. Presumably the equivalent female can safely be ignored because she's too busy to vote working long hours when she thought she'd be retired by now.


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## Tawny75

havoc said:


> Apparently the Tory 'target' voter is Workington *Man *- a working class Conservative voter in his sixties who voted leave. Presumably the equivalent female can safely be ignored because she's too busy to vote working long hours when she thought she'd be retired by now.


Yet another case of #everydaysexism. I am so glad that so many worked to get me the vote that does not seem to matter.


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## havoc

Tawny75 said:


> Yet another case of #everydaysexism.


To be absolutely fair I think it was Worcester woman for the last circus. Can't for the life of me understand why these people have to come up with such divisive stereotypes.


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## Jesthar

Just to lighten the mood a little


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## havoc

I love Matt 

Sadly it will.


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## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Apparently the Tory 'target' voter is Workington *Man *- a working class Conservative voter in his sixties who voted leave. Presumably the equivalent female can safely be ignored because she's too busy to vote working long hours when she thought she'd be retired by now.


https://unherd.com/thepost/what-does-workington-man-want/

*Workington man must be one part of a Coalition*


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## Magyarmum




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## Lurcherlad

Calvine said:


> The Church of the Militant Elvis sounds interesting. There is also a ''Fancy Dress Party''. No, seriously, the thought of Corbyn horrifies me, it's got to be Cons.
> ETA: That's if I can be bothered to vote at all (in the light of recent events after the 2016 so-called ''democratic'' vote).


I know, but if people don't vote they can't moan about the result 

As a woman, I feel I must vote. Even going along and literally writing None of the Above as a private protest is better than apathy.

I believe they do count up the "spoiled" ballot papers.

Had all those who didn't actually bother to vote in the Referendum done so, maybe we wouldn't have had to endure the last 3 years.

We would have either remained or gone but at least we would be 2 1/2 years down the line and just getting sorted.


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## Jesthar

Lurcherlad said:


> Even going along and literally writing None of the Above as a private protest is better than apathy.
> 
> I believe they do count up the "spoiled" ballot papers.


They do, yes, Just imagine the headlines if BoJo got beaten numerically by the spoiled ballot count!


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## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> And bj has never lied, he has lied his way all though brexit, all the imagined money for the NHS one lie after another.


They all lie to suit their own ends.


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## foxiesummer

As Mark Twain said, "If voting made a difference, they wouldn't let us do it".


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## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> I know, but if people don't vote they can't moan about the result


I have never complained about a result even if the result surprised me, and I never would. I would not have complained if remain had won, of that you may be sure - I fully expected them to win, as did most people; but I disagree with people desperately trying to overturn a result, and even pushing though laws to accomplish this end, since, in my opinion, this farts in the face of democracy,


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## Lurcherlad

I agree, totally.


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## Magyarmum

Lurcherlad said:


> I agree, totally.


Me too!


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## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> I have never complained about a result even if the result surprised me, and I never would. I would not have complained if remain had won, of that you may be sure - I fully expected them to win, as did most people; but I disagree with people desperately trying to overturn a result, and even pushing though laws to accomplish this end, since, in my opinion, this farts in the face of democracy,


I don't think PV for example was to overturn the results but to actually make choices when we know what we might get?
In 2016 there was no plan , not just lies.

It all was very pie in the sky and on the buses...
I think this election should not be now but after Brexit.


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## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> I don't think PV for example was to overturn the results but to actually make choices when we know what we might get?
> In 2016 there was no plan , not just lies.
> 
> It all was very pie in the sky and on the buses...
> I think this election should not be now but after Brexit.


So would you be happy with a PV that didn't have remain as an option?


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## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> I have never complained about a result even if the result surprised me, and I never would. I would not have complained if remain had won, of that you may be sure - I fully expected them to win, as did most people; but I disagree with people desperately trying to overturn a result, and even pushing though laws to accomplish this end, since, in my opinion, this farts in the face of democracy,


Same here, I voted remain but the remain camp lost & the majority voted to leave. I will not support a second referendum & referring to it as a 'people's vote' is insulting … the people have voted!


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## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> This is really just another brexit thread.


Probably because the general election is essentially a second referendum in everything but name. A one issue election.


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## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> So would you be happy with a PV that didn't have remain as an option?


So what choice? 
The choice is : the best Deal ERG managed to negotiate or what we already have.

If you want to change the house or a job this what you do?
Look at the offer and compare to what you have got already? 
GE should be about not Brexit but everything else.
It should not be Brexit or Remain.GE is not just one issue, one question.

I am very disappointed that opposition fell for it.
That Corbyn did not support PV.

It feels that all main parties care more about their seats than the future of UK.

No wonder people are undecided and distrustful.

I wish British people in Gibraltar had a vote. We are British, we are ruled by Britain and all major decisions are made in Britain but we have no voice.
The poll misses one category: cannot vote.


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## havoc

stuaz said:


> Probably because the general election is essentially a second referendum in everything but name. A one issue election.


Only if the electorate allow it to be and they didn't last time. Boris knows this, that's why he started his campaign weeks ago with the announcement of cash for the NHS etc.


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## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> So what choice?
> The choice is : the best Deal ERG managed to negotiate or what we already have.


If Boris really wanted to unite the country, heal wounds and save the union that is the UK the easiest way would be to remain in the customs union. That removes the problem of Northern Ireland, gives Scotland less reason to be unhappy and gives businesses the simplest and cheapest transition. If people are weary of the whole thing and just want it done with it's the easy way out. He has too much to gain personally from the hardest of hard Brexits though and as with everything the extremists have the loudest voices.


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## Cully

My fear is that BJ will sell off NHS to Trump. Bottom line. He must not remain PM.


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## cheekyscrip

Cully said:


> My fear is that BJ will sell off NHS to Trump. Bottom line. He must not remain PM.


He will. Voted in . Will tell you later that such was Will of The People.


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## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> If Boris really wanted to unite the country, heal wounds and save the union that is the UK the easiest way would be to remain in the customs union. That removes the problem of Northern Ireland, gives Scotland less reason to be unhappy and gives businesses the simplest and cheapest transition. If people are weary of the whole thing and just want it done with it's the easy way out. He has too much to gain personally from the hardest of hard Brexits though and as with everything the extremists have the loudest voices.


Of course.

Funny it was one of the amendments proposed to May Deal but neither Tories or opposition wanted it enough.

Why would Switzerland stay in CU?


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## Jesthar

Cully said:


> My fear is that BJ will sell off NHS to Trump.


If you saw Dispatches the other night, the meetings with the USA about undertaking a 'valuing innovation'* on drug prices have already started. It's highly doubtful the USA will make a trade deal with us that does NOT involve drug access, as they have forced significant concessions from other countries such as Canada in trade deal talks. Drug prices are a VERY hot political topic in the USA; because the drug market is so heavily controlled in favour of protecting the interests (read: profit margins) of the big pharmaceutical companies, Americans pay a LOT more for commonplace drugs than most of the rest of the world. However, that Americans are forced to pay hunderds of dollars for drugs other countries can buy at a fraction of the price isn't pitched politically as "Why should Americans be paying so much", but "Why should the rest of the world be able to pay so little"

* 'Valuing innovation' is the codeword used for the process of negotiating terms of drug prices that would form part of a post-Brexit deal with the USA, along with removing the current blocking mechanism the NHS has to prevent it having to buy overpriced branded USA drugs as opposed to identical generic (and much cheaper) alternatives.


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## Magyarmum

Cully said:


> My fear is that BJ will sell off NHS to Trump. Bottom line. He must not remain PM.


I don't think I'd worry too much about Trump.

The way things are going he could be out of the White House with a flea in his ear before too long.

https://www.dw.com/en/us-house-pave...n-newsletter_en_bulletin-2097-html-newsletter

*US House paves way for Trump impeachment probe*


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## Pawscrossed

No one party will do all you want but it's important to vote. It does matter. I did not know it was public viewing so I have changed my answer to undecided but I do know. It is not Boris or Nigel.


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## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny it was one of the amendments proposed to May Deal but neither Tories or opposition wanted it enough.


Wasn't Boris one who voted against it?
Boris renounced his American citizenship in 2017. Have to wonder about that timing.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> 'people's vote' i


 I know: as if the first lot of voters were labradoodles.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> So what choice?
> The choice is : the best Deal ERG managed to negotiate or what we already have.


I asked because you said a PV wasn't to necessarily overturn the results.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> he could be out of the White House


 I always think he only got in because he was up against Hillary Clinton.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> I always think he only got in because he was up against Hillary Clinton.


So do I. I think the Americans had the same problem then that we do now. There is no-one decent to vote for.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> So do I. I think the Americans had the same problem then that we do now. There is no-one decent to vote for.


 My son just sent me a text for no apparent reason (he's not interested in politics any more than I am), just to inform me that ''he could not stand Jo Swinson as her voice is even more screechy than Hillary Clinton's - not interested in what she has to say as can't bear to listen to her''.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> My son just sent me a text for no apparent reason (he's not interested in politics any more than I am), just to inform me that ''he could not stand Jo Swinson as her voice is even more screechy than Hillary Clinton's - not interested in what she has to say as can't bear to listen to her''.


Well that's that then 

I have no idea what she sounds like


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Jesthar

Saw this and thought it worth sharing...


----------



## havoc

Calvine said:


> My son just sent me a text for no apparent reason (he's not interested in politics any more than I am), just to inform me that ''he could not stand Jo Swinson as her voice is even more screechy than Hillary Clinton's - not interested in what she has to say as can't bear to listen to her''.


So even if she were the second coming and could save the world he wouldn't vote for someone because of their voice? What if it were something else they'd been born with - some sort of deformity?

I doubt he's alone, doesn't take much to turn people off the message.


----------



## KittenKong

Cleo38 said:


> Same here, I voted remain but the remain camp lost & the majority voted to leave. I will not support a second referendum & referring to it as a 'people's vote' is insulting … the people have voted!


Did they? 52% of leave voters do not represent 52% of the population. How do you think Brexit will benefit you? If you agree to have your leg amputated, then the doctor said he's made a misdiagnosis, must you insist that he still carries out the procedure?

Enough said, this is not the Brexit thread.



















cheekyscrip said:


> Why would Switzerland stay in CU?


Switzerland and Norway are not in the CU of course, but in the UK's case it would immediately solve the EU/UK border in Ireland.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> So even if she were the second coming and could save the world he wouldn't vote for someone because of their voice?


Remarkably, I know someone in 2015 who said she wasn't going to vote for Ed Milliband because of his voice and that he wasn't good looking.

True!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Did they? 52% of leave voters do not represent 52% of the population. How do you think Brexit will benefit you? If you agree to have your leg amputated, then the doctor said he's made a misdiagnosis, must you insist that he still carries out the procedure?
> 
> Enough said, this is not the Brexit thread.
> 
> View attachment 421130
> View attachment 421131


How many times are you going to post that _utterly ridiculous _pie chart???


----------



## Cleo38

KittenKong said:


> Did they? 52% of leave voters do not represent 52% of the population. How do you think Brexit will benefit you? If you agree to have your leg amputated, then the doctor said he's made a misdiagnosis, must you insist that he still carries out the procedure?
> .


Eh? That analogy isn't representative of Brexit at all … who said that a mistake has been made?

Out of all the people I know who voted to leave not one of them has said they regret their decision. They may think (as I do) that the MP's have made this about them & their interests rather than getting on with the job but not one has said they wanted another referendum or would choose differently if there was a second referendum


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> How many times are you going to post that _utterly ridiculous _pie chart???


Explain why you think it's ridiculous? I'm as sick and tired of people arguing 52% of the UK *population* voted to leave as much as you are sick of seeing the chart.

Anyway, this is my Facebook response towards a Corbyn supporter. You can't say I'm one sided. I'd say similar to a Lib Dems supporter coming out with similar:

" ****** The very British problem of being stuck in the past. We can go on about the Iraq War or Corbyn's support of implementing Article 50.

"This kind of attitude is what won the Brexit vote in the first place, you know, the two World Wars and the Empire.

"We can't change what happened in the past, but we can determine the future.
Where I live I'll be voting Labour tactically, but if the Lib Dems came second as in many areas, or lead with the Tories in second place, they'd get my vote.

"So, what's it to be? Continue squabbling over the past and allowing Johnson to form a extreme right majority government?

"Or are we going to do our damn hardest to prevent this from happening by tactical voting, regardless of what some think of Corbyn or Swinson?

"Plenty of time to squabble later, but not at this crucial time.
It's our last chance, please let us not muck it up".


----------



## KittenKong

Cleo38 said:


> Eh? That analogy isn't representative of Brexit at all … who said that a mistake has been made?
> 
> Out of all the people I know who voted to leave not one of them has said they regret their decision. They may think (as I do) that the MP's have made this about them & their interests rather than getting on with the job but not one has said they wanted another referendum or would choose differently if there was a second referendum


I know several who regret their vote, even if they still technically want to leave, but not as a no deal crash out.

I know one who voted Remain, but is now a hardened leaver.

So, people can and do change their minds.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> How many times are you going to post that _utterly ridiculous _pie chart???


To put it into perspective ..........................................










Need I say more?


----------



## Cleo38

KittenKong said:


> I know several who regret their vote, even if they still technically want to leave, but not as a no deal crash out.
> 
> I know one who voted Remain, but is now a hardened leaver.
> 
> So, people can and do change their minds.


I don't doubt that some people will regret their vote but I just don't agree that 'many' or those who chose to leave do as is inferred by some of the remain campaigns. As I said I was a remainer but now I support that we leave as was what the majority voted for …. end of.

Unfortunately I think (again my opinion) that this election will be about Brexit & I think the squabbling in the labour party, the hatred towards Corbyn & the accusations of anti Semitism, etc will give the Tories an extra boost


----------



## LinznMilly

saartje said:


> My concern with this poll is that anyone can see who has voted for which party by clicking on the vote number next to the option. I chose UNDECIDED to demonstrate that I can see who else has chosen this option to (remember I am unable to vote in the United Kingdom and I would not actually reveal who I would actually vote for if I was allowed to vote as I believe that is private and my business).
> View attachment 421015


Edited poll to correct Plaid Cymro spelling, and so that members can vote anonymously.


----------



## Cully

I know of people who would welcome a 2nd referendum because the first was influenced by political lies. Many voted leave because they believed what was promised. As soon as the votes were cast the promises were exposed for the lies they were.
As for the GE I can't see how anyone can take BJ seriously the way he bumbles and blusters his way through interviews (can't put a sentence together) with a schoolboy smirk on his face, and has the audacity to con us into thinking he has our best interests at the centre of his black heart!!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


>


I really think unless you live in the UK and have to live with the consequences of an election, you have no right to vote.


----------



## Cleo38

Cully said:


> I know of people who would welcome a 2nd referendum because the first was influenced by political lies. Many voted leave because they believed what was promised. As soon as the votes were cast the promises were exposed for the lies they were.
> As for the GE I can't see how anyone can take BJ seriously the way he bumbles and blusters his way through interviews (can't put a sentence together) with a schoolboy smirk on his face, and has the audacity to con us into thinking he has our best interests at the centre of his black heart!!


Many people voted leave because that what they want regardless …..


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> I really think unless you live in the UK and have to live with the consequences of an election, you have no right to vote.


I'd be interested to know what makes you think that expats living or working abroad don't have to live with the consequences of any UK election or referendum?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Explain why you think it's ridiculous? I'm as sick and tired of people arguing 52% of the UK *population* voted to leave as much as you are sick of seeing the chart.


You replied to someone saying a MAJORITY had voted to leave. Who said the 'population'?

Surely you realise that little kids can't vote, and there are others ineligible to vote.

Of those *WHO ARE ABLE TO VOTE*, the majority voted leave. That pie chart, I maintain, is utterly ridiculous.

Can you seriously not understand this?????


----------



## MilleD

LinznMilly said:


> Edited poll to correct Plaid Cymro spelling, and so that members can vote anonymously.


I think it should be Cymru


----------



## havoc

MilleD said:


> Of those *WHO ARE ABLE TO VOTE*, the majority voted leave.


Not exactly true. A majority of those who voted voted leave. That amounted to just over a third of those who were able to vote, turnout was around 72%. About 17.5 million voted leave and just over 16 million voted remain (I think - don't shoot me if I'm a bit out). Of course we can't make any assumptions about how those who didn't bother would have voted. What we can say is that there are around a third of the electorate who can't be relied on by the statisticians come a GE as nobody knows what their views were/are on staying or leaving.

I think the total UK population is around 66 million??


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> You replied to someone saying a MAJORITY had voted to leave. Who said the 'population'?
> 
> Surely you realise that little kids can't vote, and there are others ineligible to vote.
> 
> Of those *WHO ARE ABLE TO VOTE*, the majority voted leave. That pie chart, I maintain, is utterly ridiculous.
> 
> Can you seriously not understand this?????


But you conveniently forget UK born immigrants living overseas for over 15 years, despite the manifesto promise to reverse this, were denied a vote. Many living overseas who could vote didn't get their ballot papers in time.

Also, many are/were not even registered to vote, not always the fault of the government but those in care homes, hostels and with no fixed abode for example.

16-17 year olds are were denied the right to vote too. I know some would agree with that, but some would have turned 18 days after the "referendum".

I personally experienced this in 1983. I turned 18 that year, so couldn't vote in the GE as it was held before my 18th birthday.


----------



## KittenKong

*LinznMillyModerator*
*Staff Member*
Edited poll to correct Plaid Cymru spelling, and so that members can vote anonymously.
-------------------------
Thank you!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...orces-or-brexit-party-will-contest-every-seat









Let's hope Farage does, with the resultant split in the pro Brexit vote!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> I'd be interested to know what makes you think that expats living or working abroad don't have to live with the consequences of any UK election or referendum?


well what are they??????


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> well what are they??????


You made the statement and I'm interested to know what facts you've based that opinion on.

It's not up to me to provide you with the answer!

Surely you've read enough posts on this and the Brexit threads to realise the referendum and now subsequent election is going to detrimentally affect any British citizen living or working abroad to a greater or lesser degree????????????????????????????


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> I really think unless you live in the UK and have to live with the consequences of an election, you have no right to vote.


In a supposed democracy that isn't fair. Who's to say they may not return to the UK in the future? Fair enough for anyone who've given up UK citizenship in favour of another.

The way things are looking, many will probably have no choice but to return to the UK over the next couple of years.

The issue affects them as much as everyone else, perhaps even more so.

It may not have made that much of a difference to the final result, but the Government should have honoured its 2015 manifesto pledge to allow those living outside the UK for 15 years or more their right to vote.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Did they? 52% of leave voters do not represent 52% of the population


You keep on telling us this. @Cleo38 simply stated that MORE PEOPLE VOTED OUT THAN IN. She knows, in fact we all know, that 72% of voters is not 72% of the population. Are you blaming Brexiters for the fact that many people could not - and will not - be arsed to walk down the road to vote? Referendum turnout was 72% no matter whom you like to blame for the result. And of that 72%, more voted to leave than to stay. What part of that is difficult to understand! It will be interesting to see how many will vote in the coming GE.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> In a supposed democracy that isn't fair. Who's to say they may not return to the UK in the future? Fair enough for anyone who've given up UK citizenship in favour of another.
> 
> The way things are looking, many will probably have no choice but to return to the UK over the next couple of years.
> 
> The issue affects them as much as everyone else, perhaps even more so.
> 
> It may not have made that much of a difference to the final result, but the Government should have honoured its 2015 manifesto pledge to allow those living outside the UK for 15 years or more their right to vote.


I never thought I'd say it, because our views are so totally different, but THANK YOU very much for posting the above!.


----------



## havoc

Calvine said:


> It will be interesting to see how many will vote in the coming GE.


It will. It would be interesting to know if the same people who bothered in the referendum are those who bother in a GE. I suspect it wasn't quite so in the last GE. I reckon this time round turnout could be either very low or very high.


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> Not exactly true. A majority of those who voted voted leave. That amounted to just over a third of those who were able to vote, turnout was around 72%. About 17.5 million voted leave and just over 16 million voted remain (I think - don't shoot me if I'm a bit out). Of course we can't make any assumptions about how those who didn't bother would have voted. What we can say is that there are around a third of the electorate who can't be relied on by the statisticians come a GE as nobody knows what their views were/are on staying or leaving.
> 
> I think the total UK population is around 66 million??


I really couldn't give a monkies about the folks who couldn't be bothered to vote.

Ok, so OF THOSE ABLE TO VOTE WHO COULD BE BOTHERED the majority voted leave.

Being slightly pedantic doesn't change that


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> 16-17 year olds are were denied the right to vote too. I know some would agree with that, but some would have turned 18 days after the "referendum".
> 
> I personally experienced this in 1983. I turned 18 that year, so couldn't vote in the GE as it was held before my 18th birthday.


So what, you have to be 18, unless your birthday is in a week? Two weeks?

There's a cut off and that's that 

What about folks who turn 18 in the year there isn't a GE, should we have one especially for them so they don't feel left out?


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Ok, so OF THOSE ABLE TO VOTE WHO COULD BE BOTHERED the majority voted leave.


 I'm glad some of us understand that; there's a couple on here who are having a hard time taking it on board.


----------



## Blackadder

Normally I avoid anything political like the plague but.....

I'm one of those who "couldn't be bothered" to vote in the referendum for one simple reason... I didn't know what to believe! So much bowlocks was spouted from both sides that, to me, it was impossible to make an informed choice... IN or OUT, I didn't have a clue & I'll hazard a guess that many others were in the same position.

No one had ever done it before, no one knew what was involved & no one knew what the aftermath would/will be!

After 3 years are we any wiser? I don't think so although I'll admit that the very mention of Brexit now makes me switch off so I might have missed something.

So I won't be voting in the election for 2 reasons... 1) It's primarily going to be about Brexit, forgetting all the other issues the country faces & 2) I no longer give a toss!


----------



## havoc

Well Farage has made it very interesting for me. If he does insist on fielding a candidate in every seat I could end up putting a tactical vote in for the Brexit party - didn't think that could ever happen!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> You made the statement and I'm interested to know what facts you've based that opinion on.
> 
> It's not up to me to provide you with the answer!
> 
> Surely you've read enough posts on this and the Brexit threads to realise the referendum and now subsequent election is going to detrimentally affect any British citizen living or working abroad to a greater or lesser degree????????????????????????????


I meant you aren't going to be affected like us living in the UK, our schools, our roads and rail, everyday things that affect us that wont affect you if you live abroad and of cause the NHS but I suppose *some* of come back if they need the medical treatment.

*Note I said some, not all.*


----------



## havoc

What about those who rely on their British pensions - which they paid into all their working lives? Why should they not be allowed a say like all pensioners? What about those who still have financial affairs based within these shores and therefore still pay tax here? Should they not be allowed a say just like all taxpayers? And is there some reason you object to them using an NHS they've paid for?


----------



## Cleo38

Blackadder said:


> Normally I avoid anything political like the plague but.....
> 
> I'm one of those who "couldn't be bothered" to vote in the referendum for one simple reason... I didn't know what to believe! So much bowlocks was spouted from both sides that, to me, it was impossible to make an informed choice... IN or OUT, I didn't have a clue & I'll hazard a guess that many others were in the same position.
> 
> No one had ever done it before, no one knew what was involved & no one knew what the aftermath would/will be!
> 
> After 3 years are we any wiser? I don't think so although I'll admit that the very mention of Brexit now makes me switch off so I might have missed something.
> 
> So I won't be voting in the election for 2 reasons... 1) It's primarily going to be about Brexit, forgetting all the other issues the country faces & 2) I no longer give a toss!


I agree! I was torn in my decision as the campaigns by both sides were appalling tbh, it seemed to be lots of mud slinging & rhetoric rather than facts or any clear information. I voted to remain mainly because it all seemed so ill-thought out & I couldn't see how it could be carried out easily …. although I honestly ever imagined it would still be dragging on 

I probably won't vote as I said before, I don't believe I can support the 'least worst option' as was suggested as I am so opposed to their party policies.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Ok, so OF THOSE ABLE TO VOTE WHO COULD BE BOTHERED the majority voted leave.


 Agreed (as I have previously made clear); but there are some on here who STILL insist in whining (as if the rest of us are too thick to understand) that ''it wasn't xx% of the population, it was xx% of voters'' - we are never going to get a 100% turnout, so I ask myself, at what point will people accept a result? Seventy-two percent was pretty high (by UK standards). Will they accept 80% (even if it's 52/48)? I doubt it. Even a 90% turnout with a 52/48 result? I would stake my life on the fact that, even with an impossible 100% turnout, they would not accept the result; for which reason I am with @Blackadder, I no longer give a schyte if Screaming Lord Sutch is our next PM or if we leave the EU or remain. I no longer care.


----------



## kirksandallchins

For the middle of the road Leavers (not extreme right or left wing) who have voted Labour or Liberal there is no decent choice

Do you vote Tory/Brexit Party, both of which are far from moderate? Or do you stick with the parties who have policies you like except over Brexit

Being in South Yorkshire which has a majority of Labour MPs but also voted to leave in the referendum, it will be interesting to see if Labour keeps its seats. They probably will, because some people will vote for the same party for years whilst calling them corrupt and incompetant. I'm sure they'd vote for a chimp if it stood, but after watching the Brexit farce, it might be a better option


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> I meant you aren't going to be affected like us living in the UK, our schools, our roads and rail, everyday things that affect us that wont affect you if you live abroad and of cause the NHS but I suppose *some* of come back if they need the medical treatment.
> 
> *Note I said some, not all.*


They'll be a lot more having to return to the UK after Brexit when this scheme for UK immigrants living within the EEA+Switzerland ends following Brexit.

Health insurance doesn't always cover all ailments.

https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health-...585/will-the-nhs-pay-for-my-treatment-abroad/


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> They'll be a lot more having to return to the UK after Brexit when this scheme for UK immigrants living within the EEA+Switzerland ends following Brexit.
> 
> *Health insurance doesn't always cover all ailments.*
> 
> ]


So they come back to the UK, how much they paid into the NHS since they decided they didn't want to live here anymore.


----------



## Guest

You do know that if you are a United Kingdom citizen living in another European country you do still fill in United Kingdom tax returns every year and you can voluntarily pay national insurance contributions each year. So yes you do still pay into the United Kingdom system and for the NHS (if you return to the United Kingdom) if you voluntarily pay your national insurance contributions which also entitle you to a United Kingdom pension which you have to fill in a United Kingdom tax return for as well. The NHS do not fund your medical treatment if you live in another European Union country, here in the Netherlands as far as I know you have to pay for medical insurance to receive medical treatment (I have been living here for 20 years and have had to have Dutch medical insurance to live here which I pay into). The European Health Insurance card (or E111 form when I came to the Netherlands) is for holidays only not long term stays in another European country or to be used whilst living in another European country and no the full cost of medical treatment is not always fully covered with European Health Insurance Card in another European country and that is why you should have medical insurance as well when going on holiday to another European country.


----------



## Guest

My parents do not know who to vote for in this general election. They said to me that politics is in a complete mess in the United Kingdom and they gave up ages ago trying to follow what is going on.


----------



## havoc

Happy Paws2 said:


> So they come back to the UK, how much they paid into the NHS since they decided they didn't want to live here anymore.


Pensions may be taxed but NI isn't payable on them here in the UK. If your argument is that anyone no longer paying NI shouldn't receive NHS treatment then ALL pensioners should be excluded - while those who have never worked and don't ever intend to remain entitled. I have to say I do find your criteria for who is 'worthy' very weird.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kirksandallchins said:


> For the middle of the road Leavers (not extreme right or left wing) who have voted Labour or Liberal there is no decent choice
> 
> Do you vote Tory/Brexit Party, both of which are far from moderate? Or do you stick with the parties who have policies you like except over Brexit
> 
> Being in South Yorkshire which has a majority of Labour MPs but also voted to leave in the referendum, it will be interesting to see if Labour keeps its seats. They probably will, because some people will vote for the same party for years whilst calling them corrupt and incompetant. I'm sure they'd vote for a chimp if it stood, but after watching the Brexit farce, it might be a better option


Exactly this is why GE should not have been called instead of PV on one issue of Brexit.
Exactly the same position for those who are light blue but prefer Remain?
Who will not vote for Labour with Corbyn or Swinson with LD.

We are left with extreme choices and the problem is that the bottom fell of the middle.

Really wish Lib Dems had more appealing leader. Wiser.


----------



## Magyarmum

@havoc

I'm one of THOSE people.  In my case though I'm not allowed a vote due to the 15 year rule.

Even though you're non resident in the UK you can still pay your contributions towards your state pension. I think I'm correct to say if you've lapsed your payments but then wish to recommence paying, you're allowed to pay up to 7 years in arrears. I've known several people who've done that. In my case I paid "additional" payments to compensate for the years I'd missed.

I also find your reasoning about the NHS weird and incorrect @Happy Paws 2.

The EU has a reciprocal healthcare agreement with all it's members. As a British pensioner resident in Hungary I have a TAJ (NHI) number and I'm treated exactly the same as an Hungarian citizen where healthcare is concerned. The difference is that the bill for any treatment I receive is sent to the UK and paid for by the UK NHS

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

*The British in Europe - and Vice Versa*

. EU partners charge the NHS for the costs of treating British pensioners. In 2013/14 the UK paid £580 million to other EEA countries for the treatment of British pensioners resident in the EEA while it received just £12 million from other EEA countries in the same year for the treatment of EEA pensioners in the UK[4]

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...ritten-statement/Commons/2019-09-26/HCWS1832/

*Update on Reciprocal Healthcare Arrangements for Brexit:Written statement - HCWS1832*
*
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/BMA-brexit-briefing-reciprocal-healthcare%20(3).pdf*



.


----------



## Guest

With people not being pensioners (of working age) these are the rules:-


















https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/healthcare-abroad/moving-abroad/planning-your-healthcare/

In the Netherlands you are expected to pay for your health care through health care insurance.





































https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-the-netherlands


----------



## KittenKong

Getting this thread back on topic (!), yes I'm guilty too, I've used these examples for those Lib Dems who slag off Labour and vice versa, over their need to swallow their prides and to vote tactically if they want the Tories defeated.

These two examples are fairly local to me personally.

Berwick upon Tweed was a Lib Dems stronghold that was taken by the Tories in 2015.

Voting Labour here would only assist the Tories.















Tynemouth was always a safe Tory seat that was nearly lost to Labour in 1992. Labour finally took the seat in 1997 with Labour holding it ever since. The Tories have longed to win it back.

Voting Lib Dems here would only assist the Tories.


----------



## JANICE199

*Jeremy Corbyn gets my vote. We need a change and i believe he is the man for the job.*


----------



## Happy Paws2

This is well timed, if there wasn't an election would there have done it now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50267454


----------



## samuelsmiles3

saartje said:


> With people not being pensioners (of working age) these are the rules:-
> 
> View attachment 421199
> 
> View attachment 421200
> 
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/healthcare-abroad/moving-abroad/planning-your-healthcare/
> 
> In the Netherlands you are expected to pay for your health care through health care insurance.
> 
> View attachment 421201
> 
> 
> View attachment 421202
> 
> 
> View attachment 421203
> 
> 
> View attachment 421204
> 
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-the-netherlands


What is life like in Holland, saartje? Slower pace, higher living standards, just better compared to the UK?

Will you ever come back home?


----------



## Guest

samuelsmiles3 said:


> What is life like in Holland, saartje? Slower pace, higher living standards, just better compared to the UK?


Once you get used to everything life is alot more relaxed and we (my oh and I) tend not to let things bother us. We have a better personal life and work life ratio. I would (personal experience) say that living standards are better and the pace of life is slower for us. Comparing the Netherlands with the UK I would say my life is better over here than what it was in the United Kingdom.


> Will you ever come back home?


I have no intention of returning to the United Kingdom to live.


----------



## Jesthar

Bother, here we go - Tories are in trouble already for misusing taxpayers money to fund FaceBook adverts in marginal seats:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...ing_wp_cron=1572698479.1222119331359863281250

*Tories misuse taxpayers' money on Government-funded Facebook ads targeting marginal seats*
*Facebook has removed the adverts paid for by the public purse targeting key swing constituencies.*










One has to admire the very sneaky use of the phrase "up to £25m" - which, of course, could mean any amount down to 50p  Placing the 'up to' at the start of the second line of text also makes it less likely to be noticed when reading quickly too (your niche psychological reading fun fact for the day!)


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> One has to admire the very sneaky use of the phrase "up to £25m"


 Just like in the summer sales . . . ''UP TO 50% off'' (meaning maybe 10% off).


----------



## Guest

My parents told me that Brexit Party banners are appearing in the windows of neighbours houses in the street they live on.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> My parents told me that Brexit Party banners are appearing in the windows of neighbours houses in the street they live on.


Not seen any here - but to be honest, I've not seen many banners/placards yet at all. What I have had is something from the LD's with a photo of Jo Swinson on the front describing herself modestly as ''Britains's Next Prime Minister''. No kidding, that came through the letterbox within a couple of days of hearing there was even definitely going to be a GE; they must have had them in the pipeline ready.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> Not seen any here - but to be honest, I've not seen many banners/placards yet at all. What I have had is something from the LD's with a photo of Jo Swinson on the front describing herself modestly as ''Britains's Next Prime Minister''. No kidding, that came through the letterbox within a couple of days of hearing there was even definitely going to be a GE; they must have had them in the pipeline ready.


One more party that put their interest above the country.
With a leader difficult to stomach whose priority is to be PM , Brexit or high water.

:Banghead:Banghead


----------



## kimthecat

They're voting for a new Speaker today. I really hope it's not Harriet Harman .


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> They're voting for a new Speaker today. I really hope it's not Harriet Harman .


Whose on the list?


----------



## Happy Paws2

lullabydream said:


> Whose on the list?


just found this

Deputy Speaker *Sir Lindsay Hoyle* is among those strongly tipped to emerge victorious, with fellow Labour MP *Harriet Harman* - the current longest continuously serving female MP - also predicted to do well. The other six candidates are *Dame Rosie Winterton *and* Dame Eleanor Laing*, who also both served as Mr Bercow's deputies, Labour's *Meg Hillier *and *Chris Bryant* (Rhondda), plus Conservatives *Sir Edward Leigh *and* Shailesh Vara.
*
_edited for spelling_


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...hoyle-favourite-to-replace-john-a4275191.html

*Who will be the new Speaker of the House of Commons? Sir Lindsay Hoyle favourite to replace John Bercow, say bookies*


----------



## KittenKong

My views on Farage are well known, but what a cheek!









https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ral-election-dup-corbyn-labour-a9183851.html#


----------



## kimthecat

lullabydream said:


> Whose on the list?


Its down to two.

In the third round of voting Sir Lindsay Hoyle received the most votes at 267, followed by Chris Bryant with 169 and Dame Eleanor Laing was eliminated with 127.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

The usual 'Conservative NHS cuts have killed millions' narrative will be dragged back out prior to this next election.

Truth is, there haven't been cuts in spending in my lifetime.

_"At the moment, UK public health spending is the equivalent of about 7% of GDP, similar to what it was back in 2010 and higher than in previous years. Back in 1955, it was worth about 3% of GDP."_


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> The usual 'Conservative NHS cuts have killed millions' narrative will be dragged back out prior to this next election.
> 
> Truth is, there haven't been cuts in spending in my lifetime.
> 
> _"At the moment, UK public health spending is the equivalent of about 7% of GDP, similar to what it was back in 2010 and higher than in previous years. Back in 1955, it was worth about 3% of GDP."_


_Amount_ of money is only part of that equation, though...


----------



## Calvine

According to DM:

_A national strike by Royal Mail staff threatens to derail the General Election and wreck Boris Johnson's dream of getting Brexit done by Christmas._

_Industrial action planned for this month will hit the distribution and return of postal ballots, potentially disenfranchising millions of voters. _

Just when you thought it could not get any worse; and apparently they are refusing to postpone it until early next year.


----------



## Jonescat

Where will that leave postal votes??


----------



## Calvine

Apparently thousands are crawling out of the woodwork and registering to vote (300,000 to date). I thought it was a criminal offence (ie you got a fine and criminal record) for not being on the roll. They have another three weeks if they wish to be eligible.


----------



## Calvine

Jonescat said:


> Where will that leave postal votes??


Unposted probably, that's the point.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Apparently thousands are crawling out of the woodwork and registering to vote (300,000 to date). I thought it was a criminal offence (ie you got a fine and criminal record) for not being on the roll. They have another three weeks if they wish to be eligible.


I think big fines and a criminal record were ditched when individual registration was (badly) implemented by the Tories. It's now a lot more difficult to register to vote in certain common circumstances, such as if you move around a lot or change your name. For students it used to be that the university would do it as one big list per hall of residence, but now every student has to do it for themselves. In all of those situations an individual may have to provide multiple forms of ID.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> The usual 'Conservative NHS cuts have killed millions' narrative will be dragged back out prior to this next election.
> 
> Truth is, there haven't been cuts in spending in my lifetime.


It's fine for the government to pledge pumping money into this and that, but why over the last 9 years have waiting lists increased to levels last seen when the Tories were last in power with foodbank use quadrupling and a dramatic increase in homelessness?

This is not a coincidence.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> It's fine for the government to pledge pumping money into this and that, but why over the last 9 years have waiting lists increased to levels last seen when the Tories were last in power with foodbank use quadrupling and a dramatic increase in homelessness?
> 
> This is not a coincidence.


I don't know.

Administration? Bad management? An unhealthy, lazy population? Funding to 'conditions' that were never intended to be funded in the original NHS?


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Administration? Bad management? An unhealthy, lazy population? Funding to 'conditions' that were never intended to be funded in the original NHS?


To put things into perspective. The UK in not the only country in the EU r indeed Europe that's suffering a crisis in their healthcare system.

Nor is it the only country where homelessness is on the increase as are the number of people using foodbanks.

Hungary is a case in point as is France as you'll see from the following articles

https://www.thelocal.fr/20191030/th...ncreasing-number-of-homeless-deaths-in-france

*The shocking stats that reveal the increasing number of homeless people dying in France*

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rotest-outside-french-health-ministry-strikes

*French medics warn health service is on brink of collapse*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_bank .

*In total, around 3.5 million people rely on food banks in France. One provider, the Banque Alimentaire has over 100 branches in France, serving 200 million meals a year to 1.85 million people.*

https://www.thelocal.de/20190919/alarming-increase-in-number-of-food-bank-users-in-germany

*Germany sees 'alarming' increase in number of food bank users*


----------



## Guest

Homelessness is a problem in the Netherlands as the amount of homless in the Netherlands has more than doubled since 2009.

The total number of homeless people aged 18 to 65 in the Netherlands has increased from 17.800, the estimation in 2009, to 39.300 in 2018.

https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/homelessness-netherlands-has-more-doubled-2009

Not is it just a problem in the Netherlands when my OH and my parents and I went to Hannover this year we saw people sleeping in door ways like any other city and town around the world.

















Homelessness is not just a problem in the United Kingdom as there is homelessness in every country in Europe and in some countries in Europe no help is given to the homeless.


----------



## Guest

Food banks are not unique to the United Kingdom either as we have food banks here in the Netherlands.

The number of Dutch families getting aid from food banks increased by 8 percent in the first half of 2019, compared to the same period last year, food banks association Voedselbanken Nederland announced. The number of children being fed by food banks increased by nearly 7 percent, NOS reports.

https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/dutch-families-making-use-food-banks


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Administration? Bad management? An unhealthy, lazy population? Funding to 'conditions' that were never intended to be funded in the original NHS?


Try none of the above...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Jesthar said:


> Try none of the above...


?


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> ?


The NHS isn't perfect, but the 'reasons' you list are the kind of popular generalisations that indicate your first sentance was definitely accurate.

There are two doctors in my family, plus another who has been in hospital design all his life. If you want to know what it's really like in the NHS and why, these are the kind of people you ask, not the politicians.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Jesthar said:


> The NHS isn't perfect, but the 'reasons' you list are the kind of popular generalisations that indicate your first sentance was definitely accurate.
> 
> There are two doctors in my family, plus another who has been in hospital design all his life. If you want to know what it's really like in the NHS and why, these are the kind of people you ask, not the politicians.


I know one nurse and a lady who works in admin in the NHS. I have asked both why and how the NHS is struggling and both have stated that higher management is _the _big problem. Healthcare spending in the UK accounts for over 7% per cent of GDP which is comparable to Austria, Finland and Belgium, and more than in countries like Australia and New Zealand. I'm very pleased that the NHS is there but there is much room for improvement and funding is not the only/major problem.

ETA. And we can add an aging population to the list, too.


----------



## Jonescat

The aging population by definition is not a new thing. They have been on the census for years and therefore if they are a problem now it is because the plans, and therefore the finance, did not include them.

Conditions that were never intended to be funded? It has a funding round every year, so it is about time they were all included.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> View attachment 421585


So what's funny about that?


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> So what's funny about that?


"Pork pies" is Cockney rhyming slang for 'lies'  Gave me a giggle, anyway - and that's taking a lot today as I have a nagging headache...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> "Pork pies" is Cockney rhyming slang for 'lies'  Gave me a giggle, anyway - and that's taking a lot today as I have a nagging headache...


Rather obscure to someone who was born not far from Melton Mowbray and rather insulting to both the town and the pork pie named after it IMO!

https://www.porkpie.co.uk/


----------



## kimthecat

So Parliament has been dissolved and Boris met the Queen again.
There are UK bills affecting animal welfare that now won't be passed and will have to wait in a queue with others.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> View attachment 421585


:Hilarious If only it were true!


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> "Pork pies" is Cockney rhyming slang for 'lies'  Gave me a giggle, anyway - and that's taking a lot today as I have a nagging headache...


Hope you headache clears .

We say porkies , short for pork pies


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Rather obscure to someone who was born not far from Melton Mowbray and rather insulting to both the town and the pork pie named after it IMO!
> 
> https://www.porkpie.co.uk/


Well, the phrase usually gets shortened to 'porkies' so I suspect not everyone realises the origin these days, they just know what it means. Cockney rhyming slang has been around since around the 1840s and I suspect 'porkies' is probably the most widely known and commonly used, perhaps followed by maybe 'butchers', 'cobblers', 'trouble and strife', 'half-inch' and 'scoobys' 



kimthecat said:


> Hope you headache clears .
> 
> We say porkies , short for pork pies


Heh, you beat me to it! And thanks! I thought it was dehydration related, but though I'm drinking water like it's going out of fashion it doesn't seem to be helping...


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Homelessness is a problem in the Netherlands as the amount of homless in the Netherlands has more than doubled since 2009.
> The total number of homeless people aged 18 to 65 in the Netherlands has increased from 17.800, the estimation in 2009, to 39.300 in 2018.
> https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/homelessness-netherlands-has-more-doubled-2009
> Not is it just a problem in the Netherlands when my OH and my parents and I went to Hannover this year we saw people sleeping in door ways like any other city and town around the world.
> View attachment 421571
> 
> View attachment 421572
> 
> 
> Homelessness is not just a problem in the United Kingdom as there is homelessness in every country in Europe and in some countries in Europe no help is given to the homeless.





saartje said:


> Food banks are not unique to the United Kingdom either as we have food banks here in the Netherlands.
> 
> The number of Dutch families getting aid from food banks increased by 8 percent in the first half of 2019, compared to the same period last year, food banks association Voedselbanken Nederland announced. The number of children being fed by food banks increased by nearly 7 percent, NOS reports.
> 
> https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/dutch-families-making-use-food-banks


Isn't it in the EU ethos "squeeze the people until the pips squeak" unfortunately, those bloated bureaucrats swilling there champagne, eating smoked salmon and fiddling the expenses, didn't know when or how to stop and little do they care as long as it's not them


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Isn't it in the EU ethos "squeeze the people until the pips squeak" unfortunately,* those bloated bureaucrats swilling there champagne, eating smoked salmon* and fiddling the expenses, didn't know when or how to stop and little do they care as long as it's not them


Just like the tory party.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just like the tory party.


If you don't think they all take full advantage then I think you are kidding yourself


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> If you don't think they all take full advantage then I think you are kidding yourself


Think what you like, I'll never trust the money grabbing tories.


----------



## havoc

Happy Paws2 said:


> Think what you like, I'll never trust the money grabbing tories.


I think I'd even trust an estate agent more than anyone who is, or wants to be, a politician these days regardless of party.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> So Parliament has been dissolved and Boris met the Queen again.
> *There are UK bills affecting animal welfare that now won't be passed and will have to wait in a queue with others.*


Do you really think he cares.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Do you really think he cares.


No 



havoc said:


> I think I'd even trust an estate agent more than anyone who is, or wants to be, a politician these days regardless of party.


:Hilarious


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Corbyn's leading the poll with 28.6% of the vote.

Is it binding?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Pity about Tom Watson.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Pity about Tom Watson.


Absolutely. he was someone who stood up to Corbyn and his Corbynistas.
I dont blame him for resigning , he got so much cr*p from them , really nasty stuff on twitter. 
All these MPs resigning . will their be any decent ones left.


----------



## Guest

Tom Watson stands down at this General Election.

Some labour Ministers and ex MP's and ex ministers are saying Corbyn is unfit to stand as Prime Minister.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Tom Watson stands down at this General Election.
> 
> Some labour MP's and ex MP's are saying Corbyn is unfit to stant as Prime Minister.


An interesting article on the same subject by Melanie Phillips who is Jewish herself.

https://www.melaniephillips.com/brexit-nationhood-jewish-question/

*BREXIT, NATIONHOOD AND THE JEWISH QUESTION*
.


----------



## rona

So, the Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid Cymru are going to take away the voters choice in 60 seats because they know what we should be voting about and they will do all they can to make sure we do as they think


----------



## Guest

Former Gordon Brown Minister Ian Austin has urged labour supporters to lend their votes to the Conservative party as he is saying Corbyn is unfit to be Prime Minister. Ian Austin was a Labour MP for 14 years.


----------



## Guest

.


----------



## Magyarmum

Seen in the New European.


----------



## Guest

Article from the Jewish Chronicle.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> If you don't think they all take full advantage then I think you are kidding yourself


Definitely: they all have their snouts in the same trough, I'm sure of that. Plus telling lies and fiddling expenses is not limited to any one party. They are all pretty much as bad as each other.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Is it binding?


 We'll just have a few more elections if Albert Steptoe wins: I don't see a problem.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> So, the Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid Cymru are going to take away the voters choice in 60 seats because they know what we should be voting about and they will do all they can to make sure we do as they think


But didn't the Farage Party want to do similar by not fielding candidates in areas dominated by hard Brexit supporting Tory candidates? How is that any different?

For the record, I want to vote SNP but I don't have that option.

It'll have to be the best possible alternative in my area which is Labour for purely tactical reasons.

I'm sure those in "alliance" areas will do the same.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Things are getting nasty in the papers already, I dread to think what there are going to do in the next few weeks.

Glad we never buying the any of the trash.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*'I cannot stand that pr*ck a minute longer' says Tom Watson*
7th November 2019









*TOM Watson has quit as deputy Labour leader because he cannot stand that self-satisfied pr*ck Corbyn for another minute, he has confirmed. *

The MP admitted the beginning of an election campaign was a terrible time to quit, but from the perspective of the boiling, festering rage and hatred inside him it was perfect.

He said: "You don't know what he's like. You've not met the bristly old f**ker. But trust me, it was go before I snapped.

"I share an office with him. He'll spend all morning not saying a single word, just humming tunelessly while reading the Morning Star, occasionally muttering, 'It's capitalism itself that's the problem. It's got to go.'

"I'll try to make conversation like 'See anything good on TV last night?' but he just tilts his head and says 'You've never really been on board since you missed that Free Cuba meeting in 1983, have you Tom?'

"You can't do anything right. Get a sandwich from Pret and he gives you a two-hour lecture about how we should all make our own sandwiches with seasonal vegetables from our allotment. Then he tries to put it in the manifesto."

He added: "Coalition government? He thinks governing with the rest of Labour is a compromise too far. Good luck with the ****. I'm done."


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> *The Daily Mash*
> 
> *'I cannot stand that pr*ck a minute longer' says Tom Watson*
> 7th November 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *TOM Watson has quit as deputy Labour leader because he cannot stand that self-satisfied pr*ck Corbyn for another minute, he has confirmed. *
> 
> The MP admitted the beginning of an election campaign was a terrible time to quit, but from the perspective of the boiling, festering rage and hatred inside him it was perfect.
> 
> He said: "You don't know what he's like. You've not met the bristly old f**ker. But trust me, it was go before I snapped.
> 
> "I share an office with him. He'll spend all morning not saying a single word, just humming tunelessly while reading the Morning Star, occasionally muttering, 'It's capitalism itself that's the problem. It's got to go.'
> 
> "I'll try to make conversation like 'See anything good on TV last night?' but he just tilts his head and says 'You've never really been on board since you missed that Free Cuba meeting in 1983, have you Tom?'
> 
> "You can't do anything right. Get a sandwich from Pret and he gives you a two-hour lecture about how we should all make our own sandwiches with seasonal vegetables from our allotment. Then he tries to put it in the manifesto."
> 
> He added: "Coalition government? He thinks governing with the rest of Labour is a compromise too far. Good luck with the ****. I'm done."


How does the Daily Mash not get sued??


----------



## Guest




----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> How does the Daily Mash not get sued??


Because it's satire.

https://theconversation.com/spitting-image-a-warning-from-the-golden-age-of-satire-124546

*Spitting Image: a warning from the 'golden age' of satire*


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Because it's satire.


I know that, but some of it is a little close to the bone.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> I know that, but some of it is a little close to the bone.


No doubt they have a team of lawyers vetting each article to make sure it's not defamatory, before it goes into print.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> How does the Daily Mash not get sued??


Probably because there's more truth in that, than the usual media


----------



## Elles

Only just seen this. 

Caroline Lucas isn’t the leader of the Green Party.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Only just seen this.
> 
> Caroline Lucas isn't the leader of the Green Party.


There's two of them isn't there?


----------



## rona

34 years in Labour, warning everyone not to vote Corbyn in


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> So, the Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid Cymru are going to take away the voters choice in 60 seats because they know what we should be voting about and they will do all they can to make sure we do as they think


OK; so why don't we just become end up being a single-party state like Mugabe - nowt wrong with that, rona! And a jolly North Korean-trained security team to make sure everyone toes the line too?


----------



## CollieSlave

rona said:


> So, the Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid Cymru are going to take away the voters choice in 60 seats because they know what we should be voting about and they will do all they can to make sure we do as they think


With due respect, ELEVEN seats out of 40 are affected by this agreement. The same system worked with the recent Brecon & Radnor by-election where only the Tories and Liberals were, therefore, standing any chance of election. This ensured that the Tory candidate, a convicted criminal, was not elected: as a voter in this constituency I was delighted by the arrangement - and the result!


----------



## rona

CollieSlave said:


> With due respect, ELEVEN seats out of 40 are affected by this agreement. The same system worked with the recent Brecon & Radnor by-election where only the Tories and Liberals were, therefore, standing any chance of election. This ensured that the Tory candidate, a convicted criminal, was not elected: as a voter in this constituency I was delighted by the arrangement - and the result!


https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...07834/lib-dems-greens-and-plaid-agree-60-seat

"The three parties have signed off on the tie-up, which covers 49 seats in England and 11 in Wales, after months of talks aimed at thrashing out an anti-Brexit pact".

There's only eleven they have any chance in


----------



## Guest

John Woodcock has announced he is stepping down and said not to back Corbyn. This is what he actually said "The choice to keep Jeremy Corbyn away from Downing Street, to stop him getting his hands on the levers of national security and defence has to be to vote Conservative in this election and that's what I'll be doing as well."


----------



## Guest

I am confused. Didn't Wales vote leave? 

Can someone explain why are they wanting to remain now?

Did the Welsh Government decide on behalf of the Welsh people to change their minds?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> 34 years in Labour, warning everyone not to vote Corbyn in


Wonder how much they bribed him? Perhaps there's a knighthood or peerage awaiting....

Still, Hoey favours the Farage party more than her own apparently.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> "The three parties have signed off on the tie-up, which covers 49 seats in England and 11 in Wales, after months of talks aimed at thrashing out an anti-Brexit pact".
> 
> There's only eleven they have any chance in


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ns-stance-in-attempt-to-form-pact-with-tories


----------



## Happy Paws2

What do people really think Jeremy Corbyn is going to do that is so evil.


----------



## KittenKong

Good grief!

Not satisfied with two of them insulting the Grenfell victims by accusing them of lacking common sense earlier in the week.

Now, flooding victims are told to accept it as one of those things. Clearly, no plans to build more flood defences then.

Absolutely incredible!


















https://news.sky.com/story/uk-weath...ollen-rivers-amid-extensive-flooding-11857056


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious








https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/peter-obornes-file-of-boris-johnsons-lies-is-published/


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 421836


For someone who accuses Leavers of living in the past you don't do too badly yourself!


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...ction_uk_5dc591cce4b0fcfb7f658a2d?utm_hp_ref=

*General Election 2019: Jeremy Corbyn Could Be Succeeded By Co-Leaders If Labour Loses*


----------



## Magyarmum

https://fullfact.org/health/500-million-nhs-drug-prices/

The Labour party have repeatedly claimed that under Boris Johnson's plans for a trade deal with the USA, £500 million a week could be sent to US drug companies, not the NHS. 










*Paying £500 million more a week for drugs post-Brexit is based on a fairly extreme scenario*


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> For someone who accuses Leavers of living in the past you don't do too badly yourself!


Good point, but shows some things don't change.


----------



## KittenKong

I see the BBC have, again been caught out with editing footage.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> I see the BBC have, again been caught out with editing footage.
> 
> View attachment 422121


It was because they were talking about foreign policy and he was the foreign sectary at the time they were talking about.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> It was because they were talking about foreign policy and he was the foreign sectary at the time they were talking about.


The BBC reported this themselves.
I mean "accidentally" using footage from there years ago to commemorate an event held yesterday!!!


----------



## Guest

Between the Lib Dems and Labour they will bankrupt the United Kingdom.

The Lib Dems are offering everyone living in the United Kingdom £10,000 for education for their life time.

Labour are planning spending in excess of £1trillion pounds.


----------



## KittenKong

News now in that Farage will only be fielding candidates outside the 317 areas the Tories won in 2017. This is the alliance Trump had insisted upon. There's a peerage for Farage too, so has been reported...

This could split the pro Brexit vote in those areas the Tories need to win to gain their much desired majority of 326 seats or more.


----------



## Happy Paws2

In ever this about BJ
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson Hon FRIBA is a British politician, writer, and former journalist serving as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Leader of the Conservative Party since July 2019. He has been Member of Parliament for Uxbridge and South Ruislip since 2015 and was MP for Henley from 2001 to 2008. Wikipedia

Born: 19 June 1964 (age 55 years), Upper East Side, New York, United States
Height: 1.75 m
Full name: Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson


----------



## KittenKong

And who can blame them? I think I would be furious too.

Seeing how the Farage/Johnson coalition treats their own people, just imagine how they'll treat everyone else when in government....









https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...latest-conservatives-candidates-a9199396.html


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422312
> View attachment 422313


Yet.. it was on bbc too?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50380613


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Yet.. it was on bbc too?
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50380613


Don't remember this being on the main BBCtv news though.
Yet, they were all over Ian Austin....


----------



## Elles

It was on the 11th November. Armistice day. It was reported on bbc news, but there were other things going on too, so perhaps you missed it. 

Brexiters also think that the bbc is biased against them. Especially in programming eg Question Time. However as most of parliament has a remain bias, QT is bound to appear to have too, even if the presenters weren’t Remainers. Like I said, try Sky Australia if you want to see what real pro brexit/anti climate change, anti left bias looks like. 

Your bias is making you read Pro brexit/Tory conspiracy where there is none imo. Jo Swinson for example is getting plenty of air time.


----------



## stuaz

Elles said:


> It was on the 11th November. Armistice day. It was reported on bbc news, but there were other things going on too, so perhaps you missed it.
> 
> Brexiters also think that the bbc is biased against them. Especially in programming eg Question Time. However as most of parliament has a remain bias, QT is bound to appear to have too, even if the presenters weren't Remainers. Like I said, try Sky Australia if you want to see what real pro brexit/anti climate change, anti left bias looks like.
> 
> Your bias is making you read Pro brexit/Tory conspiracy where there is none imo. Jo Swinson for example is getting plenty of air time.


I have posted this before but I know someone who works at the BBC in the news department and they have said to me in the past that it's quite common for them to get complaints from both sides saying they favour the right or the left, sometimes even about the same subjects!

But then media bashing, is quite a popular hobby for some!.... the fact that social media is far more likely to be biased as it will present info to you that meets your way of thinking...

The bottom line is there aren't many places you can get truly impartial advice. The best "we" can do is get our information from multiple sources.


----------



## kimthecat

Both left and right moan on Twitter that the BBC is biased. They cant win!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

Another piece of the FB misinformation you love to post. Nothing short of scaremongering!

Don't you ever check on what you're posting?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/vide...ost-brexit-u-k-as-singapore-on-steroids-video

*`Singapore on Steroids': Martin Sorrell's Vision for Post-Brexit U.K. Economy*


----------



## havoc

Just for fun I've made a point of clicking on pro Tory news articles for the last week. It's no surprise that the digital world is now convinced I'm a supporter and I'm getting very selective news articles and targeted stuff. Next week I'll change tack and see what happens.

Anyone who thinks they're getting any sort of impartial view is deluded.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Just for fun I've made a point of clicking on pro Tory news articles for the last week. It's no surprise that the digital world is now convinced I'm a supporter and I'm getting very selective news articles and targeted stuff. Next week I'll change tack and see what happens.
> 
> Anyone who thinks they're getting any sort of impartial view is deluded.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Just for fun I've made a point of clicking on pro Tory news articles for the last week. It's no surprise that the digital world is now convinced I'm a supporter and I'm getting very selective news articles and targeted stuff. Next week I'll change tack and see what happens.
> 
> Anyone who thinks they're getting any sort of impartial view is deluded.


Yes, it sure is targeted, there are algorithms and it's based on what we appear to be interested in. We click buttons to accept cookies, that's what they're for too.  I watched a couple of Blaire White videos, so I'm getting pointed at lgbt issues atm. If I do a google search to check something, I get the Guardian, the Independent and European press, in amongst the results, not the Sun, Mail, or Mirror, I don't know if the mirror still exists? I think that's from following links here. 

Quite often the top of my search is the post here that I'm looking up info on. :Bookworm


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Yes, it sure is targeted, there are algorithms and it's based on what we appear to be interested in. We click buttons to accept cookies, that's what they're for too.  I watched a couple of Blaire White videos, so I'm getting pointed at lgbt issues atm. If I do a google search to check something, I get the Guardian, the Independent and European press, in amongst the results, not the Sun, Mail, or Mirror, I don't know if the mirror still exists? I think that's from following links here.
> 
> Quite often the top of my search is the post here that I'm looking up info on. :Bookworm


I ordered dog treats yesterday and now I'm getting ads for treats from several other online pet shops both in Hungary and the UK:Spam


----------



## Siskin

Ah yes, cookies and the digital world.
The last one on the list below is pertinent.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I don't know if the mirror still exists?


I didn't either but it is showing in my newsfeeds now. Will be interesting to see how quickly it all changes when I change tack in a couple of days


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> Anyone who thinks they're getting any sort of impartial view is deluded.


...unless you're an IT professional who knows how to screw with 'the system'...


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> ...unless you're an IT professional who knows how to screw with 'the system'...


My rule when starting the game was to get sent stuff put out by the party machine without actively hitting their own sites. All I had to do was click 'like' on the FB post of a rabidly right wing party member who is a 'friend' of a friend - a nobody other than a paid up member. I'm quite disappointed I didn't have to go further into creating the right sort of personality type


----------



## kimthecat

I cant decide between Lord Buckethead and the Greens!


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> I cant decide between Lord Buckethead and the Greens!


I'd go with Count Binface. HTH


----------



## cheekyscrip

How such a big country could produce such a poor choice???

It might go down in history for that sole reason....


----------



## Elles

The Lib Dems have stood down in Exeter, they say for the Greens. They know they have little chance against Ben Bradshaw who is an ardent remainer, not a fan of Corbyn and our MP since the 90s. 

The Greens are standing young Joe Levy, must be mid 20s by now I would think. The conservatives don’t even try here any more. I think the last one we got offered by them was some 20 year old uni activist. This years is a someone who lives miles away in the back of beyond, practically Cornwall. I can’t see him doing much.


----------



## Sandysmum

I am so fed up with all the election promises of jam tomorrow! If the money to fulfill all these wonderful pledges is available then why haven't they done it already????? Why is it just at election time that there's a magical money tree to be found?


----------



## Calvine

jetsmum said:


> I am so fed up with all the election promises of jam tomorrow! If the money to fulfill all these wonderful pledges is available then why haven't they done it already????? Why is it just at election time that there's a magical money tree to be found?


 God yes: free broadband for every home plus a four-day working week . . . yeah, right. I'm_ guessing_ no tuition fees either.


----------



## Elles

We can’t take any notice of Labour promises, because they keep contradicting each other. One said the 4 day week wouldn’t apply to the nhs, another said it would for example. If they got in they’d just say it was worse than they thought and they can’t afford it without increasing taxes or something, or that they didn’t say that. 

Unless people get the same pay for fewer hours who wants a 4 day week anyway? How will small businesses afford it? 

The Conservatives are saying austerity is now over and the country is doing well enough to start increasing spending. Coincidentally as Boris gets in and we’re having an election. Nothing to do with the election of course and I’m sure they’ll keep all their promises, none of which are based on manipulated figures. 

Even Caroline Lucas thinks the Lib Dems are wrong to want to just cancel brexit, without even a second vote. If she thinks it, I would guess a lot of other Remainers and environmentalists think the same way, so it’s really unlikely Jo Swinson will get her wish.

Why is no one asking about borders, if Scotland get their wish, leave the U.K. (ironically its closest neighbours) and stay in the Eu instead. If the Eu even want the hassle of it, which is unlikely it seems. Scotland could end up with real independence from everything. Where would that leave Scotland?


----------



## Happy Paws2

BJ keeps changing him mind or he doesn't remember what his been saying.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> *How such a big country* could produce such a poor choice???
> 
> It might go down in history for that sole reason....


we are just a small island!


----------



## Guest

Mum and dad received their polling cards yesterday informing them their postal voting packs will be sent on the 26th November. They still do not know who to vote for and are considering abstaining.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> Mum and dad received their polling cards yesterday informing them their postal voting packs will be sent on the 26th November. They still do not know who to vote for and are considering abstaining.


Tell them to send them back spoiled even if they don't want to vote for any of the candidates. They count spoiled ballots, so in the absence of None Of The Above it's the best way we have of saying 'I want to vote, just not for any of this lot!'


----------



## StormyThai

Elles said:


> Unless people get the same pay for fewer hours who wants a 4 day week anyway? How will small businesses afford it?


Maybe just ask those that live in countries that already work a 4 day week...I'm pretty certain that the Netherlands aren't going bankrupt any time soon, I'm also pretty certain that the people that work those 4 day weeks are doing pretty well considering the Dutch are more satisfied with their lives (including their work/life balance) than the general average.

Not saying if I do or don't agree with the concept...but it does work, and very well at that.


----------



## Siskin

I will always vote even if I have the greatest of difficulty deciding who for. I will never spoil my ballot paper either. The vote was hard won by those in the past especially for women I will not disabuse their memory by not voting


----------



## Jesthar

Siskin said:


> I will always vote even if I have the greatest of difficulty deciding who for. I will never spoil my ballot paper either. The vote was hard won by those in the past especially for women I will not disabuse their memory by not voting


I will always vote, but personally I regard spoiling your ballot as a valid vote. I'm not going to force myself to vote for some utter toerag simply because the others are (IMHO) even worse toerags, so if it ever comes down to that level of choice you'll merrily find me writing "None of you are worthy of my vote" (or words to that effect ) across the whole paper.

Spoiled ballots are at least counted, so it's the best 'I want to vote but not for any of you' option we have right now... I do wonder what would happen if everyone eligible who didn't like any of the candidates spoiled their ballot instead of staying at home, especially if the spoiled ballot piles started to outnumber the winning candidiate piles in some areas


----------



## Elles

If they bring in a 4 day week, 32 hours? and people still get the same hourly rate, there’s going to be a lot of struggling people aren’t there? If they bring in a 4 day week, but say employers have to increase the hourly rate so that people are still getting the same amount as they are for working 5 days a week, how will they afford it and wouldn’t that cost the nhs a fortune? I haven’t really looked at it, but I’m not sure working in the Netherlands compares to here does it?
I’ve been trying to research it in the Netherlands and all I can find are people saying that most still work 9-5, 5 days a week, but some and women in particular take up flexi time and work fewer hours and lunch breaks are unpaid. Is that what Corbyn was suggesting?


----------



## StormyThai

I don't know...I just know that it works in some places and there is no reason why it wouldn't work in other countries if similar models were followed. I didn't say that they were perfect, just that there are already places that show it can work. Of course it won't be as easy as just lowering working hours or just raising hourly rates.

Lunch breaks are already unpaid in many jobs in the UK... I know when I worked in retail (granted it was over a decade ago) my lunch breaks were un paid and so is my partners.
The cost of living needs to go down for sure...there is definitely something wrong when a quarter of a million for a tiny house is deemed an affordable housing option and rental prices take the vast majority of peoples monthly wages.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/

*Find out about candidates in your area*


----------



## havoc

StormyThai said:


> The cost of living needs to go down for sure...there is definitely something wrong when a quarter of a million for a tiny house is deemed an affordable housing option and rental prices take the vast majority of peoples monthly wages.


I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Rising house prices are an indication of the strength of our economy these days and if they rise slower this year than the same period last year it's seen as a bad thing. Year on year they have to keep going up to give people a false sense of wealth and security.

As for affordable renting - my daughter is currently flat hunting in London so I was having a semi-interested nose at Rightmove. Happened to notice some flats in Westminster which you could apply for if you had lived or worked in the borough for at least a year and the combined household income was less than .................. take a guess


----------



## Dave S

Great news, vote Labour in and we will all get free broadband, paid for by a tax on the internet giants.
Well that's good so then the internet giants then charge us to view their content so we end up paying anyway.

And It is called British Broadband, probably be a company and be known as BBC, oh sorry domain name is taken.

I am sure my near 90 year old mother, safe in her sheltered housing will be very impressed and eager to get on the net as the only net she knows is the one that goes over her hair every night. 

Seriously though - can these pledges, whatever they are not be made a legal requirement should any party be elected on a "promise". Perhaps then the sillier ones would not be suggested.


----------



## Elles

StormyThai said:


> I don't know...


And that's the problem. If we don't know what it entails and what they mean by it, how can we know whether we support it or not and whether we should vote for it? Especially when two of the shadow cabinet are stood next to each other, contradicting each other on how it will work and saying the complete opposite of each other.


----------



## Guest

The European Union has started legal action against the United Kingdom for not nominating a commissioner (heavy fines will probably be imposed). Australia is looking to seek compensation from the United Kingdom and so are other countries.

Yet the Labour party are making financial promises to the people of the United Kingdom so they might get into power. How long will it be before they realise they have to break these promises of free broadband for everyone etc.

Labour aren't alone in making financial promises the Liberal Democrates are offering everyone in the United Kingdom £10,000 per person for a lifetime of education.

I don't know what the Conservatives are offering financially.

But can't you see the new United Kingdom Government are going to have to break these financial promises because they aren't affordable unless the United Kingdom has lots of money trees to shake?

Now I see why my mum and dad want to abstain from voting.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> The European Union has started legal action against the United Kingdom for not nominating a commissioner (heavy fines will probably be imposed). Australia is looking to seek compensation from the United Kingdom and so are other countries.
> 
> Yet the Labour party are making financial promises to the people of the United Kingdom so they might get into power. How long will it be before they realise they have to break these promises of free broadband for everyone etc.
> 
> Labour aren't alone in making financial promises the Liberal Democrates are offering everyone in the United Kingdom £10,000 per person for a lifetime of education.
> 
> I don't know what the Conservatives are offering financially.
> 
> But can't you see the new United Kingdom Government are going to have to break these financial promises because they aren't affordable unless the United Kingdom has lots of money trees to shake?
> 
> Now I see why my mum and dad want to abstain from voting.


The Independent reports Brexit has already cost the UK economy over £60bn.

This article, from January 2019 reports £1.9bn spent on no deal preparation.

This is before the £100m publicity campaign, "Get Ready for Brexit", paid by the UK taxpayer.

https://fullfact.org/europe/whats-cost-preparing-brexit/#

















Of course the usual media have conditioned people into believing Labour will bankrupt the UK. Yet, historically, they created the NHS and had a radical housing programme which was a miracle seeing this happened soon after the war ended.


----------



## stuaz




----------



## Elles

Corbyn isn’t post war Labour, nor was Tony Blair. Brexit delay is what is costing money, though apparently there’s plenty left to fund the promises being made by all parties, so maybe it’s not having that bad an effect, if any. 

Remainers should have accepted the referendum result, as indeed they said they did, and parliament should have got together to see it through. It’s too late now, no use crying over spilt milk. Let’s hope there aren’t another 3 years of dither and delay, as Jeremy decides whether to have another referendum and whether its a brexit one first, or a Scottish independence one. We would be better off with the Lib Dems plan to revoke article 50 and stay in, than going with Corbyn imo.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The Independent reports Brexit has already cost the UK economy over £60bn.
> 
> This article, from January 2019 reports £1.9bn spent on no deal preparation.
> 
> This is before the £100m publicity campaign, "Get Ready for Brexit", paid by the UK taxpayer.
> 
> https://fullfact.org/europe/whats-cost-preparing-brexit/#
> View attachment 422478
> 
> View attachment 422479
> 
> 
> Of course the usual media have conditioned people into believing Labour will bankrupt the UK. Yet, historically, they created the NHS and had a radical housing programme which was a miracle seeing this happened soon after the war ended.


People should read the whole article by Full Fact and not the bits that have been "doctored" in order to give a false impression.

As usual you only posted one part of the article, namely "claim" to mislead anyone who read it instead of posting together with the "conclusion" which puts the article into perspective.

https://fullfact.org/europe/whats-cost-preparing-brexit/

*What's the cost of preparing for Brexit?*
In brief

*Claim*
The £1.9 billion the government has spent on preparing for no deal so far could pay the salaries of around 85,000 nurses, 50,000 secondary school teachers or 49,000 police constables.

*Conclusion*
The government hasn't said how much of the government's additional Brexit funding is going to no deal preparations specifically. That would pay the salaries of roughly this many staff, but it doesn't tell us anything useful as these workers would cost more to employ than their salaries alone.

.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422502


Pretty sure it was a bacon sarnie that did for dear old Millie
Perhaps bj is trying to sway the vegan vote, although he, obviously, has less acumen, than the pig he so closely resembles there


----------



## Elles

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the 6 storey student block that went up in flames. It appears they were told it wasn’t flammable cladding on the building, so the private landlord did nothing about it. Firefighters are now saying that they think it was and it should have been replaced.  

Fortunately everyone got out. 

It seems that local authorities have replaced, or are finishing off replacing cladding on their buildings, but that many private landlords and privately owned flats haven’t been fixed yet. I intend to write to my MP about it, after the election and I’ll ask what’s being done, if any of them knock at my door. It’s about time it was sorted out.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422502


Ridiculous and pathetic, like people being more concerned about Theresa May's shoes than her politics. unch


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422502


 OK, so he has more ''bad hair days'' than most people . . . and isn't awfully photogenic when he's eating. Never mind, eh?


----------



## Calvine

Electoral fraud claims already:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rage-brexit-party-police-latest-a9205311.html


----------



## Elles

If the allegations are true, and there could be some truth in them, I saw Ann Widdecombe saying she’d been offered something and I don’t see why she’d lie, we ain’t getting brexit and we could easily end up with Corbyn as PM. Fanbloodytastic Boris, way to go.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Found it on Speaking Freely today:


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 6 storey student block that went up in flames. It appears they were told it wasn't flammable cladding on the building, so the private landlord did nothing about it. Firefighters are now saying that they think it was and it should have been replaced.
> 
> Fortunately everyone got out.
> 
> It seems that local authorities have replaced, or are finishing off replacing cladding on their buildings, but that many private landlords and privately owned flats haven't been fixed yet. I intend to write to my MP about it, after the election and I'll ask what's being done, if any of them knock at my door. It's about time it was sorted out.


Mum told me about this and she told me all the students got out as it was student flats that the cladding caught fire on. 2 got injured though. Shows how dangerous cladding is on buildings. Mum said it was a private landlord that owns the block according to the news she heard.

It must have been horrifying for the students last night and scarey


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 422533
> Found it on Speaking Freely today:


What's Speaking Freely?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> What's Speaking Freely?


One of the social media groups. 
As in the name - all can post anything as long as not too offensive.


----------



## Elles

Never heard of it. Which social media platform?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Never heard of it. Which social media platform?


I think it's this one ................

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/app-reviews/secret-speak-freely

https://downloads.tomsguide.com/Speak-Freely,0301-1265.html

*Download Speak Freely 7.2 for Windows*


----------



## Guest

Mum and dad sent me this via email last night. They said they found this online and printed it off and stuck it in their window.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Mum and dad sent me this via email last night. They said they found this online and printed it off and stuck it in their window.
> View attachment 422581


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious Love this!


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Mum and dad sent me this via email last night. They said they found this online and printed it off and stuck it in their window.
> View attachment 422581


Seriously, I think that should be a choice we should have, just to let them know we aren't happy with the way they are lying to us.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Mum and dad sent me this via email last night. They said they found this online and printed it off and stuck it in their window.
> View attachment 422581


Any chance you could talk them into joining PF?


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Seriously, I think that should be a choice we should have, just to let them know we aren't happy with the way they are lying to us.


 Yep: and think the PF poll should have a ''not voting'' option. Any chance @KittenKong could change it?


----------



## Elles

I doubt they’ll give us a ‘none of the above’ option, for fear of it winning the elections. People are more likely to tick a box than spoil their ballot I would think.


----------



## kimthecat

Knock at the door yesterday , saw people milling outside, thought to myself , oh , Momentum are here , went to the door to give them a piece of my mind . 
It was Jehovah witness and I was pleased to see them !


----------



## SbanR

kimthecat said:


> Knock at the door yesterday , saw people milling outside, thought to myself , oh , Momentum are here , went to the door to give them a piece of my mind .
> It was Jehovah witness and I was pleased to see them !


Oh, that sad!:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

The latest polling data from Politico Poll of Polls.

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll...MAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_11_18_06_58&utm_medium=ema

*United Kingdom - 2019 general election*


----------



## Jonescat

All that "none of the above" achieves is to let one of the above get elected. The point of elections is to elect someone to power and that is what will happen.
The options as far as I see it are be politically active and support somebody that you are happy represents enough of your views and will do, stand yourself, ignore it all or be a revolutionary (not necessarily the violent sort, perhaps just campaigning for a new voting method). IMO, spoiling the ballot paper, unless accompanied by a national campaign so everyone knows exactly what spoiling it meant, doesn't help sort the problem we have. 

I strongly suspect that if everyone spoils their papers without the campaign (which could be a very British sort of revolution if it was properly orchestrated) would just leave the Tories in charge by default.


----------



## rona

At the CBI conference, Boris has just promised to stop live exports of animals


----------



## Magyarmum

Just out from The King's Fund, facts and figures related to the General Election 2019 and NHS Finances.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-...wsletters (main account)&utm_medium=email&utm

*Key facts and figures about the NHS*


----------



## Jesthar

Jonescat said:


> All that "none of the above" achieves is to let one of the above get elected. The point of elections is to elect someone to power and that is what will happen.


Not necessarily. In the 1990 Russian elections which led to the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Communists made the mistake of putting NOTA on all the ballot forms as an official option even when there was only one candidate on the ballot paper. So in around 200 areas where there was only a truly hated Communist candidate to vote for (and yes, these elections most definitely WERE blatantly rigged  ), many Russians gleefully voted NOTA instead to oust them from their seat and force a by-election. They don't have NOTA any more, but it was very useful then to seed change.



Jonescat said:


> The options as far as I see it are be politically active and support somebody that you are happy represents enough of your views and will do, stand yourself, ignore it all or be a revolutionary (not necessarily the violent sort, perhaps just campaigning for a new voting method). IMO, spoiling the ballot paper, unless accompanied by a national campaign so everyone knows exactly what spoiling it meant, doesn't help sort the problem we have.
> 
> I strongly suspect that if everyone spoils their papers without the campaign (which could be a very British sort of revolution if it was properly orchestrated) would just leave the Tories in charge by default.


it would be a very British revolution, yes, and one I would like to see happen


----------



## KittenKong

Jonescat said:


> All that "none of the above" achieves is to let one of the above get elected. The point of elections is to elect someone to power and that is what will happen.
> The options as far as I see it are be politically active and support somebody that you are happy represents enough of your views and will do, stand yourself, ignore it all or be a revolutionary (not necessarily the violent sort, perhaps just campaigning for a new voting method). IMO, spoiling the ballot paper, unless accompanied by a national campaign so everyone knows exactly what spoiling it meant, doesn't help sort the problem we have.
> 
> I strongly suspect that if everyone spoils their papers without the campaign (which could be a very British sort of revolution if it was properly orchestrated) would just leave the Tories in charge by default.


Very true, as


----------



## kimthecat

So, if the Tories win the election but Boris loses his seat , what happens then?

It seems every vote will count here , its possible he could lose his seat .


----------



## KittenKong

Absolutely appalling to hear this.

While I don't think gender has anything to do with the exclusion of Swinson and Sturgeon, I'm now beginning to wonder....

More to make it appear to be a US Presidential debate I reckon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50463816


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422712
> Absolutely appalling to hear this.
> 
> While I don't think gender has anything to do with the exclusion of Swinson and Sturgeon, I'm now beginning to wonder....
> 
> More to make it appear to be a US Presidential debate I reckon.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50463816


There is no link showing in your post but it shows in the quote. .

Its certainly not about gender but I feel they should be allowed to take part.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> At the CBI conference, Boris has just promised to stop live exports of animals


I'm flabbergasted anyone still believes a word he says...


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I'm flabbergasted anyone still believes a word he says...
> 
> View attachment 422713


That comment and article in the Independent was from November 11th *2017*

He could have changed his mind half a dozen times since then for all you know!


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> That comment and article in the Independent was from November 11th *2017*
> 
> He could have changed his mind half a dozen times since then for all you know!


and he was talking about Spanish traditions and not Bull fighting per say


----------



## Jonescat

Jesthar said:


> Not necessarily. In the 1990 Russian elections which led to the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Communists made the mistake of putting NOTA on all the ballot forms as an official option even when there was only one candidate on the ballot paper. So in around 200 areas where there was only a truly hated Communist candidate to vote for (and yes, these elections most definitely WERE blatantly rigged  ), many Russians gleefully voted NOTA instead to oust them from their seat and force a by-election. They don't have NOTA any more, but it was very useful then to seed change.


Well I didn't know that! So thankyou


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> and he was talking about Spanish traditions and not Bull fighting per say


He supports the return of Foxhunting though doesn't he.

You really think this vile bully cares for animals?


----------



## Guest

Tonight Johnson and Corbyn have a leaders debate on TV. What is the point of this as everyone has already seen them arguing in the House of Commons at Prime Ministers Questions every week until Parliament was dissolved? Everyone knows that Corbyn has a very confusing stance on Brexit.


----------



## Guest

Mum and dad are getting fed up with the local Liberal Democrat party as they keep posting leaflets and letters through their door, they have even gone as far as addressing the letters personally to them and one letter was sent using tax payers money from the House of Commons (the letter was on the House of Commons headed paper and the envelope had the logo on it for the House of Commons from the local Liberal Democrat MP).

Mum and Dad said they really do not know what to do to stop this as they have had leaflets and letters every day for the last week including Sunday and today?

They said if they vote they want it to be their independent decision who they vote for.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> Mum and dad are getting fed up with the local Liberal Democrat party as they keep posting leaflets and letters through their door, they have even gone as far as addressing the letters personally to them and one letter was sent using tax payers money from the House of Commons (the letter was on the House of Commons headed paper and the envelope had the logo on it for the House of Commons from the local Liberal Democrat MP)


At least they are bothering. Our rotten Tory MP obviously feels so safe he's not sent anything so far. He's not getting my vote, though!

Had a couple of A4 leaflets things from the Lib Dems a couple of weeks ago (one from the candidate, one more general), but that's it. Actually seem a reasonable chap, so I might consider him.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> He supports the return of Foxhunting though doesn't he.
> 
> You really think this vile bully cares for animals?


I don't know what his stance is now, the last time he voted on this was 2004 wasn't it?

That's 15 years ago, I know I've changed a lot in 15 years.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Never heard of it. Which social media platform?


Fb


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I don't know what his stance is now, the last time he voted on this was 2004 wasn't it?
> 
> That's 15 years ago, I know I've changed a lot in 15 years.


It's pretty much universal in the Tory party. Theresa May is certainly a big supporter of it, she said it quite openly.

It appeared to take her by surprise that much of the population didn't agree with her.


----------



## Elles

As soon as the Tories realised that bringing back foxhunting would lose them votes and wasn’t popular they dropped it. If Jo Swinson agreed with it, she’d bring it back regardless of any referendum against it and Corbyn would nationalise hunts and give us all free horses.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> As soon as the Tories realised that bringing back foxhunting would lose them votes and wasn't popular they dropped it. If Jo Swinson agreed with it, she'd bring it back regardless of any referendum against it and Corbyn would nationalise hunts and give us all free horses.


----------



## rona

Whoever did Julie Etchingham's makeup needs more training, she looks like a Victorian doll with those cheeks


----------



## rona

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50467321

"John Thomas, who is also a Leicester City Council representative, left his post at Leicester East, writing in a letter he "can no longer follow the clown that leads" the party.
About his decision to resign, he said: "This is a great disappointment to me, realising that I have spent over 30 years of my life working for a party that I know now that I have nothing in common with.

"This is not the party I joined, the party for decent working people."


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Mum and dad are getting fed up with the local Liberal Democrat party as they keep posting leaflets and letters through their door, they have even gone as far as addressing the letters personally to them and one letter was sent using tax payers money from the House of Commons (the letter was on the House of Commons headed paper and the envelope had the logo on it for the House of Commons from the local Liberal Democrat MP).
> 
> Mum and Dad said they really do not know what to do to stop this as they have had leaflets and letters every day for the last week including Sunday and today?
> 
> They said if they vote they want it to be their independent decision who they vote for.


 Me too: they are the only ones who have contacted me . . . whenever I pick up the post there's Jo Swinson grinning at me. It started literally two days after the election was announced, saying she'll be a wonderful PM. Yes, my name is on them too, first name terms. Matey. Pally.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50467321
> 
> "John Thomas, who is also a Leicester City Council representative, left his post at Leicester East, writing in a letter he "can no longer follow the clown that leads" the party.
> About his decision to resign, he said: "This is a great disappointment to me, realising that I have spent over 30 years of my life working for a party that I know now that I have nothing in common with.
> 
> "This is not the party I joined, the party for decent working people."


I had to look up BAME.

https://civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2019/07/08/please-dont-call-me-bame-or-bme/


----------



## Jesthar

And the Conservatives are now in trouble with Twitter - they renamed the Tory press office twitter account to 'FactcheckUK', complete with neutral colour scheme, for the duration of the TV debate, then returned it to it's usual branding. Twitter say if they try another deliberate attempt to mislead, they'll take "decisive corrective action"

Oh, and James Cleverley (the chap behind the stunt) sees nothing wrong with it...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50482637


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 422533
> Found it on Speaking Freely today:


Ridiculous.


----------



## MilleD

We have a new Conservative candidate as Jeremy Lefroy is stepping down.

Their name is Theo and I thought it was a man, turns out her name is Theodora.

Those two names make the area sound far more up market than it is....

Green it is again.


----------



## Jonescat

Jesthar said:


> Oh, and James Cleverley (the chap behind the stunt) sees nothing wrong with it...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50482637


and neither does Dominic Raab because "No-one gives a toss about social media cut and thrust"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50486534


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Their name is Theo and I thought it was a man,


You never know these days.:Hilarious


----------



## Guest

I wonder what the Labour supporters think of this comment about Corbyn?








Yes Michel Barnier (the chief European Union negotiator for Brexit) did like this twitter post about Corbyn.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> And the Conservatives are now in trouble with Twitter - they renamed the Tory press office twitter account to 'FactcheckUK', complete with neutral colour scheme, for the duration of the TV debate, then returned it to it's usual branding. Twitter say if they try another deliberate attempt to mislead, they'll take "decisive corrective action"
> 
> Oh, and James Cleverley (the chap behind the stunt) sees nothing wrong with it...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50482637


This is certainly a new low for this wretched government, as if normalising lying isn't bad enough.


----------



## Guest

Some of the ideas Labour has floated in the last couple of years:-

4 Day Working Week
Re-nationalise Royal Mail
Re-nationalise Electricity and Gas
Re-nationalise Rail Network
Give Everyone Free Broadband
Get rid of Student debt by writing it off
Take the United Kingdom back to the 1970's

I feel a song coming on If I Could Turn Back Time:-


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Re-nationalise Royal Mail
> Re-nationalise Electricity and Gas
> Re-nationalise Rail Network
> ]


They should never have been privatised in the first place!


----------



## Elles

People, especially students thought that Corbyn was going to write off student debt when he said they'd deal with it, before the last election, but after the election he said that's not what he meant.

https://fullfact.org/education/student-debt-what-did-labour-say/

Exactly the same thing is happening this time. The media is reporting that Labour will write off student debt and Labour are hinting at it, but not saying it.

From an interview with John McDonnall:

Pressed on whether Labour will promise to cancel student debts, he added: "What I'm saying is, it has to be addressed by some form by whoever is in government, because the system - exactly as we predicted - is not working."

After Len McCluskey said:

His comments came just days after Unite general secretary Len McCluskey, who helped draw up the manifesto, said it would see "student debt being lifted off our youth".

Labour are actually saying the same as last time, that they will cancel university fees for new students, but being vague about current debt, neither denying nor confirming anything. Students fell for it last time and thought Labour would pay off their student debt.They didn't say they would last time and so far they aren't saying they will this time either, but they are clearly letting people think it, by not denying it.. again. 

Len McCluskey mentioned 'youth'. New students will fit that category, older students and ex students already in debt probably don't, so he wasn't saying it either.


----------



## Elles

They need to fully investigate what’s going on with the student vote anyway. As I’m sure we know, Plymouth have been caught registering students to vote, including 17 year olds and have been caught doing the same thing before. It leaves it wide open for fraud, when students don’t know they’ve been registered and someone else can vote for them in a postal vote. They only got caught this time when students received electoral cards when they hadn’t registered to vote in Plymouth. It is illegal for the council to register students to vote, they have to apply themselves. Plymouth are saying it was an admin error, like last time they did it. 

So if I get caught speeding can I say it was an admin error? 

This begs the question as to how many other students in uni towns and cities were registered to vote in their university city without their consent? 

The conservatives wanted to tighten the rules on registering and proxy votes, but Labour disagreed saying it would unfairly hit minority and ethnic groups. It’s Labour who have been accused of cheating though, so it doesn’t look good that they’re arguing against fraud prevention measures.


----------



## Jesthar

Jonescat said:


> and neither does Dominic Raab because "No-one gives a toss about social media cut and thrust"
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50486534


Well, one parody twitter account is handily proving the 'no-one will have been confused' defence wrong with a little experiment:










There's a significant number of people taking it to be a genuine CCHQ tweet, and rather more saying 'you had me going for a moment before I realised it's a parody' - and that's despite the obvious satire, clear explanation in the account description and a main page header image that looks like this:










Not exactly subtle!


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> They should never have been privatised in the first place!


The privatisation of the railways was not totally down to a serving Government in the United Kingdom by the way it was down to this:

The deregulation of the industry was initiated by EU Directive 91/440 in 1991.

The privatisation of the railways started in 1994 and finished in 1997. John Major was in power at the time and saw a law passed in the United Kingdom called the Railways Act 1993.

So to renationalise the railways the United Kingdom would first have to ask the European Union to remove EU Directive 91/440 1991 or leave the European Union and overturn this directive through the United Kingdom Parliament.

Not as simple as the Labour Party make out as they would have to overturn the EU Directive first then pass a law to overturn the Railways Act 1993 in the United Kingdom Parliament.

**This is an example how European Law/Directives are intertwined into United Kingdom Law.**


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Well, one parody twitter account is handily proving the 'no-one will have been confused' defence wrong with a little experiment:
> 
> View attachment 422904
> 
> 
> There's a significant number of people taking it to be a genuine CCHQ tweet, and rather more saying 'you had me going for a moment before I realised it's a parody' - and that's despite the obvious satire, clear explanation in the account description and a main page header image that looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 422908
> 
> 
> Not exactly subtle!


Yeah ok. We are expected to believe the claim that people are a: fooled into thinking it's a serious and genuine page b: influenced by it in some way. The twitter name change thing was stupid, but it was for about an hour and it's a lot of fuss over it. The tweets even said on them "Source: The Conservative Party."

If people are that easily fooled Labour should take their fact checking twitter page down:

The Insider
@ The_InsiderUK

Trust the facts, not the waffle

That's ok though, because it's not called fact check. It's implying that it has inside information for the public though isn't it and it's clearly meant to mislead, but it's Labour so that's ok.


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> The privatisation of the railways was not totally down to a serving Government in the United Kingdom by the way it was down to this:
> 
> The deregulation of the industry was initiated by EU Directive 91/440 in 1991.
> 
> **This is an example how European Law/Directives are intertwined into United Kingdom Law.**


Or trying to muscle in and profit from or destroy our industries 

https://webarchive.nationalarchives...eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32012L0034


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> Some of the ideas Labour has floated in the last couple of years:-
> 
> 4 Day Working Week
> Re-nationalise Royal Mail
> Re-nationalise Electricity and Gas
> Re-nationalise Rail Network
> Give Everyone Free Broadband
> Get rid of Student debt by writing it off
> Take the United Kingdom back to the 1970's
> 
> I feel a song coming on If I Could Turn Back Time:-


What would be wrong with that? I grew up in the '70s where it was virtually unheard of to hear the man of the house not working.

This was instrumental in my own upbringing that the man of the house is the breadwinner and provided for his family. Something I still strongly believe in, though the breadwinner doesn't have to be the male of course.

Thatcher changed all that when it was her government, not the EEC, destroyed the traditional industries and put nearly 3 million out of work. I started working at 16 but became one of those made unemployed at 18 at the end of 1983.

Despite taking on zero hour types of jobs and temporary contracts, it wasn't until as late as 2002 I finally secured permanent full time work again, thanks to the Tony Blair Labour government!

It's rather sad to hear some older Brexit supporters who believe the traditional British industries will return with Brexit. A very sad fantasy.

Children at the time would have grown up, used to their father's being out of work and would have seen that as something normal. To me, that's abnormal.

So, what is wrong with the return to the 1970s mindset? The 1980s was a horrible decade.

That's certainly better than the pre World War II conditions with privatised healthcare this wretched government are proposing...


----------



## Guest

> privatised healthcare this wretched government are proposing


Over here in the Netherlands you have to have healthcare insurance to access even the basic Health Care services even if you don't go and see a doctor or dentist or go to hospital. Yes you have to pay for health care here in the Netherlands. Nobody moans about that over here.


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> The privatisation of the railways was not totally down to a serving Government in the United Kingdom by the way it was down to this:
> 
> The deregulation of the industry was initiated by EU Directive 91/440 in 1991.
> 
> The privatisation of the railways started in 1994 and finished in 1997. John Major was in power at the time and saw a law passed in the United Kingdom called the Railways Act 1993.
> 
> So to renationalise the railways the United Kingdom would first have to ask the European Union to remove EU Directive 91/440 1991 or leave the European Union and overturn this directive through the United Kingdom Parliament.
> 
> Not as simple as the Labour Party make out as they would have to overturn the EU Directive first then pass a law to overturn the Railways Act 1993 in the United Kingdom Parliament.
> 
> **This is an example how European Law/Directives are intertwined into United Kingdom Law.**


You don't have quote anything about the privation of the railway to me, my OH worked for them for over 40 years so we know enough. All I'll say is Thatcher backed away from it, John Major rained it.


----------



## MilleD

MilleD said:


> We have a new Conservative candidate as Jeremy Lefroy is stepping down.
> 
> Their name is Theo and I thought it was a man, turns out her name is Theodora.
> 
> Those two names make the area sound far more up market than it is....
> 
> Green it is again.


Oh my gawd.

Just found out that good old Theodora is Jacob Rees-Mogg's niece 

Something she apparently is trying to keep very quiet....


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Yeah ok. We are expected to believe the claim that people are a: fooled into thinking it's a serious and genuine page b: influenced by it in some way. The twitter name change thing was stupid, but it was for about an hour and it's a lot of fuss over it. The tweets even said on them "Source: The Conservative Party."


If this kind of stuff DIDN'T work, then we wouldn't need spam filters for phishing e-mails and cold callers wouldn't be trying to tell me my computer has been 'hacked' but don't worry because they can help me. Even on here we've occasionally had people think NewsThump articles are real before someone clarifies that it's a satire site, and we're a pretty intelligent bunch. Granted, it's not going to work on everyone, and only partly on most, but in the 'FactCheck UK case 'partly' was judged to be enough to make it worthwhile despite the probable fallout.

And no, that doesn't make the people who fell for it 'stupid' - I'm an IT professional with a sixth sense for this kind of thing, and sometimes even I can get part way through something dodgy before the penny drops. Most scams rely mainly not on technical prowess (though that does help!), but social engineering - be that fear, greed, confirmation bias, empathy, ego manipulation or whatever.



Elles said:


> If people are that easily fooled Labour should take their fact checking twitter page down:
> 
> The Insider
> @ The_InsiderUK
> 
> Trust the facts, not the waffle
> 
> That's ok though, because it's not called fact check. It's implying that it has inside information for the public though isn't it and it's clearly meant to mislead, but it's Labour so that's ok.


I don't do twitter, but had a quick look and like you I don't see it calling itself a fact CHECKING account. It claims to give facts, not to fact check claims, and to my mind at least that is two very different things. It also clearly has 'Labour' written all over it - unlike the CCHQ account during the debate, which switched to completely neutral branding, retitled itself "Factcheck UK" and changed the description from "Official Conservative Party Press Office - providing snippets of news and commentary from CCHQ" to "Fact checking Labour from CCHQ" - and CCHQ is hardly an acronym most people would know. Using conservative hashtags isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card either, as anyone can do that.

There's also the added complication of the CCHQ account being a 'Verified Account' - a checkmark Twitter awards to accounts to tell people that who they are looking at has been confirmed to be exactly who they say they are - so with that and the rebrand they had a better chance of being mistaked for a genuine fact checking service than some average Joe Public account would. Other people have had verified accounts suspended for pulling rebranding stunts like this, even as a joke.

So yes, I think the two situations are rather different. I don't like either of the accounts from a core consideration - both are biased political mouthpieces. But only ONE of them was was given a temporary makeover and masqueraded as a fact checking service.


----------



## Elles

If people are fooled by newsthump and the satire page you linked, they’ll be fooled by an Insider account with an image of an open door number 10. You can’t have it both ways. Either people are easily fooled and it’s terrible, or they aren’t and it’s not. The point is all of them are meant to fool and mislead people, but only two of them were a temporary joke, the other is a serious attempt to fool people into thinking it’s a whistleblowing insider account from someone inside number 10. Fortunately it’s just Twitter. 

It was stupid and ill-advised of the Conservatives, but if an meme saying Boris won the debate is going to change peoples’ minds on who to vote for, there are plenty of twitter and other social media accounts saying he did.


----------



## Elles

Ah, I've just looked at it. It's completely changed. It didn't look anything like that yesterday.  It looked like this:


----------



## Elles

And now it looks like:


----------



## Elles

:Hilarious

The Conservative Party one said “Source: The Conservative Party” on the memes and tweets.


----------



## Elles

This is a new Labour website. They haven't changed it yet. As you can see it's the same logo as the now defunct twitter account.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Get rid of Student debt by writing it off


I did read, some time ago, that it cost so much to collect it that it might in fact be cheaper to ''let it go''.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Ah, I've just looked at it. It's completely changed. It didn't look anything like that yesterday.  It looked like this:
> 
> View attachment 422952





Elles said:


> And now it looks like:
> 
> View attachment 422954


Ok, so those are completely separate Twitter accounts.

The first is @The_InsiderUK and was created in September 2019. Still looks the same as yesterday and is very much functional:
https://twitter.com/the_insideruk?lang=en

The second is @Labour_Insider and was created in March 2016:
https://twitter.com/labour_insider?lang=en


----------



## Elles

Ah, I did exactly the same google search, but got two different ones?

Do you not agree that the Insider is a deliberate ploy to deceive and if anyone was fooled by the conservatives idiocy they would be fooled into thinking this website and twitter feed come from insiders at number 10?

I don’t have a twitter account, but when their stuff is retweeted, I presume it no longer says Labour Party anywhere near it. A meme that says “source, the Conservative Party” on it, still has “source, the Conservative Party” on it when it’s retweeted. I think it’s hypocrisy of the highest degree. 

I don’t agree with either of them messing about like this during an election campaign, but in my view the Labour one is worse than what the conservatives did. Why do they need a separate webpage and twitter account with a different name?


----------



## KittenKong

This has to be the most pathetic attempt at smearing Corbyn ever, as seen on Facebook and posted by an American on a pro EU site at that.

My response to this is below:


----------



## Elles

The post was saying Epstein was in Boris Johnson’s circle... You don’t seem concerned about that implication? We already know Corbyn has been accused of being anti Semitic, nothing to do with Nazis. He’s a Marxist and many, including some Jews, believe Marxism is anti Semitic.


----------



## Guest

Jeremy Corbyn plans to tax the wealthy in society. Does he include himself when he says this?

Spear’s magazine - a bimonthly British magazine for high-net-worth individuals - reported the MP for Islington North has a net worth of £3 million.

The Wealth Management Survey has also said he has claimed over £3 million from the state since the late 1980s.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Ah, I did exactly the same google search, but got two different ones?


Easy to get confused with them, isn't it? I have to confess I didn't Google them, I just lifted the info straight off your screenshots then double checked straight on twitter... 



Elles said:


> Do you not agree that the Insider is a deliberate ploy to deceive and if anyone was fooled by the conservatives idiocy they would be fooled into thinking this website and twitter feed come from insiders at number 10?


It's not great, but it does at least have 'Labour' and Labour branding all over the place - including in the website URL, the footer, and the About section. And the description of the Twitter page says "Trust the facts, not the waffle. @*UKLabour* account giving you facts, information and comment you can trust." In fact, the twitter handle is pretty much the only place you can't immediately see it's to do with Labour.

The Conservative rebranding of the CCHQ Press twitter account, on the other hand, deliberately removed all obvious references to the Conservatives, from colour and branding to the word itself, and left only the ambiguous 'CCHQ' acronym intact whilst it assume the FactcheckUK moniker. So I personally (and I do specialise in Human-Computer Interaction) would say that was rather more misleading than the labour website.

Incidentally, I can't seem to find out what CCHQ actually stands for as an acronym stands for - I'm guessing Conservative and Head Quarters account for three of the letters, but the other C remains a mystery...



Elles said:


> I don't have a twitter account, but when their stuff is retweeted, I presume it no longer says Labour Party anywhere near it. A meme that says "source, the Conservative Party" on it, still has "source, the Conservative Party" on it when it's retweeted. I think it's hypocrisy of the highest degree.


So I took one for the team and read through the CCHQPress account for the time of the debate (i.e. when they changed the branding). I haven't managed to spot any of their tweets that have 'source: the Conservative Party' written in them, so a pointer would be useful, please?  I also am allergic to Twitter, so I can't comment on retweeting, though I would assume it works the same for everyone.



Elles said:


> I don't agree with either of them messing about like this during an election campaign, but in my view the Labour one is worse than what the conservatives did. Why do they need a separate webpage and twitter account with a different name?


A quick API twitter query shows the Conservatives have 11 twitter accounts with CCHQ in either the handle or the description, including two CCHQPress accounts (the offending one and CCHQPress_London), as well as @Conservatives. I haven

And in trying to find out what websites they have, I just unearthed this breaking news - the Tories have now set up a fake Labour manifesto website, and paid Google to promote it:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ite-fact-check-general-election-a9212076.html

I don't deny that the site clearly says "A website by the Conservative Party" front and centre (whether or not they were originally going until the Twitter debacle we will never know), but still...

Oh, and just to clarify, I have no particular axe to grind either way, I just call it as I personally see it


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> Jeremy Corbyn plans to tax the wealthy in society. Does he include himself when he says this?
> 
> Spear's magazine - a bimonthly British magazine for high-net-worth individuals - reported the MP for Islington North has a net worth of £3 million.
> 
> The Wealth Management Survey has also said he has claimed over £3 million from the state since the late 1980s.


He will end up getting no tax at all when the taxes are hiked and individuals and companies go elsewhere. There is always a tipping point.

Oh, and there's this:
*
Labour drops plans to keep free movement after Brexit and 2030 climate pledge, manifesto reveals 
*
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-manifesto-reveals/ar-BBX6qlJ?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Easy to get confused with them, isn't it? I have to confess I didn't Google them, I just lifted the info straight off your screenshots then double checked straight on twitter...
> 
> It's not great, but it does at least have 'Labour' and Labour branding all over the place - including in the website URL, the footer, and the About section. And the description of the Twitter page says "Trust the facts, not the waffle. @*UKLabour* account giving you facts, information and comment you can trust." In fact, the twitter handle is pretty much the only place you can't immediately see it's to do with Labour.
> 
> The Conservative rebranding of the CCHQ Press twitter account, on the other hand, deliberately removed all obvious references to the Conservatives, from colour and branding to the word itself, and left only the ambiguous 'CCHQ' acronym intact whilst it assume the FactcheckUK moniker. So I personally (and I do specialise in Human-Computer Interaction) would say that was rather more misleading than the labour website.
> 
> Incidentally, I can't seem to find out what CCHQ actually stands for as an acronym stands for - I'm guessing Conservative and Head Quarters account for three of the letters, but the other C remains a mystery...
> 
> So I took one for the team and read through the CCHQPress account for the time of the debate (i.e. when they changed the branding). I haven't managed to spot any of their tweets that have 'source: the Conservative Party' written in them, so a pointer would be useful, please?  I also am allergic to Twitter, so I can't comment on retweeting, though I would assume it works the same for everyone.
> 
> A quick API twitter query shows the Conservatives have 11 twitter accounts with CCHQ in either the handle or the description, including two CCHQPress accounts (the offending one and CCHQPress_London), as well as @Conservatives. I haven
> 
> And in trying to find out what websites they have, I just unearthed this breaking news - the Tories have now set up a fake Labour manifesto website, and paid Google to promote it:
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ite-fact-check-general-election-a9212076.html
> 
> I don't deny that the site clearly says "A website by the Conservative Party" front and centre (whether or not they were originally going until the Twitter debacle we will never know), but still...
> 
> Oh, and just to clarify, I have no particular axe to grind either way, I just call it as I personally see it


I don't use twitter either. They need to take all these spare websites and whatnot down. There's no need for it. Obviously despite being up for about an hour, while the debate was on, the 'prank' was easy enough to recognise. I don't think they should have done it, but I don't think Labour should either. To me they are trying to mislead people, putting Labour at the bottom of a page isn't exactly being open about it. Most people will click on one of the articles and totally miss it. They're all trying to con us and need calling out on it.

Conservative Campaign Headquarters.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> The post was saying Epstein was in Boris Johnson's circle... You don't seem concerned about that implication? We already know Corbyn has been accused of being anti Semitic, nothing to do with Nazis. He's a Marxist and many, including some Jews, believe Marxism is anti Semitic.


I thought that lots of early communists and socialists were Jewish?

Their enemies often exploited this? 
I think more to the point communism was against religion as such "opium for the masses".


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> He will end up getting no tax at all when the taxes are hiked and individuals and companies go elsewhere. There is always a tipping point.
> 
> Oh, and there's this:
> *
> Labour drops plans to keep free movement after Brexit and 2030 climate pledge, manifesto reveals
> *
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-manifesto-reveals/ar-BBX6qlJ?ocid=spartanntp


Yes, we know Labour will drop FoM with their own Brexit plan. Hardly news that is it.

But at least people will have a say whether to accept or reject the deal and remain.

Johnson will not.


----------



## stuaz

saartje said:


> Over here in the Netherlands you have to have healthcare insurance to access even the basic Health Care services even if you don't go and see a doctor or dentist or go to hospital. Yes you have to pay for health care here in the Netherlands. Nobody moans about that over here.


And let's hope that a similar healthcare model is never put in place in the U.K!


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 422973
> 
> I thought that lots of early communists and socialists were Jewish?
> 
> Their enemies often exploited this?
> I think more to the point communism was against religion as such "opium for the masses".


I'm talking about how some people perceive it.  If a person believes Marxism is anti Jewish and they believe Corbyn is both Marxist and anti Semitic, it's not a stretch to think that's what they meant about his pronunciation of the name.

I don't think I've heard the name spoken, so I'd say it in the German way too. It's an i like Steinway. Do the Americans say Steenway Piano?


----------



## Elles

Labour are keeping free movement really. Everyone here can stay, everyone here can bring their families and extended families. If we have a Labour government we will remain in the Eu. Of course Eu nationals, recent immigrants and 16 year olds will vote for them and then vote remain. The Eu nationals and immigrants because they’re promising a free for all, the 16 year olds because they’re promising them free stuff, like free transport until they’re 25, free broadband, free council houses and free shares if they can get a job in a company that employs lots of people. 

Everything under a Labour government will be free and small companies like ours will pay for it with 4 day weeks and extra corporation tax, so that the government can buy back the post office and run the Internet. Can’t wait. 

I’m sure we’ll manage. I’m not that far off 65 and I’ve been promised someone to look after me when I am. For free.


----------



## KittenKong

Sinister sources certainly at work with the dirty tactics going on with this borderline Fascist government.

Not only disguising their Twitter feed as Full Facts they've disguised a website under the Labour Manifesto banner.

And the with the Andrew Windsor Esq. interview, we now hear Alex Salmond, former SNP leader is charged with suspect assault charges. How conveniently timed!

No doubt the usual media will be all over that like a rash, (I remember what happened with Jeremy Thorpe and the Liberal Party in 1979). However, this could backfire as, if successful in destroying the SNP this would be more likely to benefit Labour and the Lib Dems in most areas of Scotland, than the Tories.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Sinister sources certainly at work with the dirty tactics going on with this borderline Fascist government.
> 
> Not only disguising their Twitter feed as Full Facts they've disguised a website under the Labour Manifesto banner.
> 
> And the with the Andrew Windsor Esq. interview, we now hear Alex Salmond, former SNP leader is charged with suspect assault charges. How conveniently timed!
> 
> No doubt the usual media will be all over that like a rash, (I remember what happened with Jeremy Thorpe and the Liberal Party in 1979). However, this could backfire as, if successful in destroying the SNP this would be more likely benefit Labour and the Lib Dems in most areas of Scotland, than the Tories.


So probably not "conveniently timed" at all then?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Sinister sources certainly at work with the dirty tactics going on with this borderline Fascist government.
> 
> Not only disguising their Twitter feed as Full Facts they've disguised a website under the Labour Manifesto banner.
> 
> And the with the Andrew Windsor Esq. interview, we now hear Alex Salmond, former SNP leader is charged with suspect assault charges. How conveniently timed!
> 
> No doubt the usual media will be all over that like a rash, (I remember what happened with Jeremy Thorpe and the Liberal Party in 1979). However, this could backfire as, if successful in destroying the SNP this would be more likely to benefit Labour and the Lib Dems in most areas of Scotland, than the Tories.


Another of your conspiracy theories?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> this borderline Fascist government.


 Oh please, dear God, no!


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Calvine

Did you notice the other evening (BJ versus JC) that JC actually said, ''_This is a once in a lifetime GE_''? . . . which is exactly what Cameron said in 2016 (and here we are 2019, almost 2020, still arsing around).


----------



## Elles

Students believed him and rallied to him last time. Some being so convinced they even voted for him twice. It will be interesting to see if bribery has worked this time too and the next polls show another swing to the left.

Corbyn can go all out with promises this time. If he does get in, he’ll have done what he wanted and can step down and retire before the next one. He doesn’t have to stick to any of it, he can always say the Tories haven’t left him any money and it’s worse than he thought.

It is a once in a lifetime GE for him. Not for the rest of us.


----------



## Guest

Corbyn is 70 so he might stand down before the next GE (not this one).

Let's see if his offer of free broadband won over anyone, when I read this I questioned how he is going to fund this if the well off people in the United Kingdom and million and billionaire business owners decide to up sticks and take their businesses with them and leave the United Kingdom if he wins this GE who will he turn to then to fund the freebies he is promising to the many not the few.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> No doubt the usual media will be all over that like a rash, (I remember what happened with Jeremy Thorpe and the Liberal Party in 1979). However, this could backfire as, if successful in destroying the SNP this would be more likely to benefit Labour and the Lib Dems in most areas of Scotland, than the Tories.


Jeremy Thorpe was in a privileged position of power and trust and took advantage of young men, including a disturbed young Norman. He was leaving himself wide open for criticism and blackmail. He sent people after Norman to at best frighten and intimidate him into silence and got his dog killed. Jeremy Thorpe's proclivities were hidden and protected for years by the same people who covered up for paedos. I have no sympathy for Thorpe. If he wanted to sleep with young men, which at the time was illegal (and even now given their comparative ages and lack of interest once they aged would be considered distasteful at best), he should have stayed out of public office and campaigned for a change in the law.

The investigation and prosecution of Salmond has been ongoing for some time now. The GE has only just been called. There's no reason for Nicola Sturgeon, or the SDP to be tainted by it imo. How is her fault?


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Over here in the Netherlands you have to have healthcare insurance to access even the basic Health Care services even if you don't go and see a doctor or dentist or go to hospital. Yes you have to pay for health care here in the Netherlands. Nobody moans about that over here.


And what do you think we pay National Insurance?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> And what do you think we pay National Insurance?


Or taxes?
Generally?
I think when Tories get their way corporate tax will be cut, high earners will pay less than now and NHS will gradually follow American health care model.


----------



## Elles

It doesn’t matter who wins though, they all have magic money trees, regardless of whether we leave or stay in the Eu lol.

A couple of weeks ago we were all doomed, we’d starve, there’d be no fresh water or medicine and the motorways would turn into car parks.

Now it’s free broadband for all and we can all get stoned on legal cannabis. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The post was saying Epstein was in Boris Johnson's circle... You don't seem concerned about that implication? We already know Corbyn has been accused of being anti Semitic, nothing to do with Nazis. He's a Marxist and many, including some Jews, believe Marxism is anti Semitic.


The OP responded to my reply by arguing it was a "Generation issue", which is hardly correct as I belong to a later generation who doesn't adopt US terminology. I'm English European after all.
I pointed out, even within the UK some words are pronounced differently, depending where you live.



Magyarmum said:


> Another of your conspiracy theories?


Hardly a conspiracy when issues such as disguising themselves as "Full Fact" is, ahem, fact.



Calvine said:


> Oh please, dear God, no!


If this thread existed in Germany in 1930 I would expect a similar response.....


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> we can all get stoned on legal cannabis. :Hilarious


yes please ( personal choice only)
and, of course, in the grand scheme of things.
its the easiest way to control the population and stop them protesting


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> This has to be the most pathetic attempt at smearing Corbyn ever, as seen on Facebook and posted by an American on a pro EU site at that.
> 
> My response to this is below:
> 
> View attachment 422961
> 
> View attachment 422962


And yet you are the one who persists in bringing up Hitler and Nazi connections, to, try, to win arguments in the brexit thread
Hypocrite I think is the word you're searching for


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> If this thread existed in Germany in 1930 I would expect a similar response..


:Yawn


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> This has to be the most pathetic attempt at smearing Corbyn ever, as seen on Facebook and posted by an American on a pro EU site at that.
> 
> My response to this is below:
> 
> View attachment 422961
> 
> View attachment 422962


I did German at University, and would in fact always pronounce this as 'Epshtyne' if I hadn't been told otherwise.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The OP responded to my reply by arguing it was a "Generation issue", which is hardly correct as I belong to a later generation who doesn't adopt US terminology. I'm English European after all.
> I pointed out, even within the UK some words are pronounced differently, depending where you live.
> 
> Hardly a conspiracy when issues such as disguising themselves as "Full Fact" is, ahem, fact.
> 
> If this thread existed in Germany in 1930 I would expect a similar response.....


You're being selective as per norm. I was referring to the whole post where you link everything together to prove your own theory.

How pompous can you get about the pronunciation of Epstein's name!. It's nothing to do with generations as you put it.

You find the same alteration of surnames in South Africa with French Huguenot surnames. The classic example is Labuchagne which in France and Europe is pronounced La-boo-shane but in South Africa is La-boo-shag-knee.

I'm sure no one (apart from you) would insist on changing the pronunciation of Marnus Labuchagne's surname when he plays cricket in the UK because they're of a "later" generation and "English European". 

Isn't it about time you stopped living in the 1930's?


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> You're being selective as per norm. I was referring to the whole post where you link everything together to prove your own theory.
> 
> How pompous can you get about the pronunciation of Epstein's name!. It's nothing to do with generations as you put it.
> 
> You find the same alteration of surnames in South Africa with French Huguenot surnames. The classic example is Labuchagne which in France and Europe is pronounced La-boo-shane but in South Africa is La-boo-shag-knee.
> 
> I'm sure no one (apart from you) would insist on changing the pronunciation of Marnus Labuchagne's surname when he plays cricket in the UK because they're of a "later" generation and "English European".
> 
> Isn't it about time you stopped living in the 1930's?


Mainwaring = 'Mannering'
Beauchamp = 'Beecham'

I could go on . . . and on . . .. Sometimes also a family will change a name to something more to their liking, eg Sidebottom = Siddibott*om* (with the emphasis on the last syllable). Generally speaking, no-one cares and you can pretty much pronounce your name as you wish.
ETA: I doubt very much that Corbyn was deliberately pronouncing it wrongly to be offensive . . . how would that help his TV performance?


----------



## Beth78

I know very little about politics so I may be wrong.
If there is another referendum and the outcome is remain that is alot of wasted years an money that could have been spent on the people of the uk.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Mainwaring = 'Mannering'
> Beauchamp = 'Beecham'
> 
> I could go on . . . and on . . .. Sometimes also a family will change a name to something more to their liking, eg Sidebottom = Siddibott*om* (with the emphasis on the last syllable). Generally speaking, no-one cares and you can pretty much pronounce your name as you wish.


I doubt whether most people of the"later" generation, "English European" pronounce Budapest properly. In Hungarian an "s" is pronounced as "sh" in "shush" so therefore to pronounce Budapest correctly you should say Budapesht.

But as you say "who cares"?


----------



## KittenKong

I like the sound of this.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...to-hunt-foxes-hares-and-deer?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## KittenKong

Beth78 said:


> I know very little about politics so I may be wrong.
> If there is another referendum and the outcome is remain that is alot of wasted years an money that could have been spent on the people of the uk.


Indeed. They should never have been the "Referendum" in the first place.

Unlike 1975, it was badly organised, held in the middle of a major European football tournament, no thought for the Irish border, apart from the dellusional belief the ROI would leave as well and the devolved powers of Scotland and Wales before mentioning the complexity in Gibraltar....


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ent-housing-trawled-discarded-poll-cards.html

Already the foot-soldiers of the grassroots hard-Left Labour movement Momentum are on the ground here for one of the closest-fought contests of the election.

They and other Corbyn-supporting activists are campaigning on the huge campus of Brunel University and the suburban streets outside, waving banners and putting up posters with the slogan Unseat Boris and a ruder epithet 'F*ck Boris'.

Mobilising the students is crucial if Ali is to topple Boris, whose majority halved in 2017 to just 5,034 - the smallest of any premier since 1924.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ent-housing-trawled-discarded-poll-cards.html
> 
> Already the foot-soldiers of the grassroots hard-Left Labour movement Momentum are on the ground here for one of the closest-fought contests of the election.
> 
> They and other Corbyn-supporting activists are campaigning on the huge campus of Brunel University and the suburban streets outside, waving banners and putting up posters with the slogan Unseat Boris and a ruder epithet 'F*ck Boris'.
> 
> Mobilising the students is crucial if Ali is to topple Boris, whose majority halved in 2017 to just 5,034 - the smallest of any premier since 1924.


I would love to unseat Boris...


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I would love to unseat Boris...


Not by cheating though?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I would love to unseat Boris...


My top ten:
01 Johnson
02 JR-M
03 IDS
04 Patel
05 Gove
06 Leadsom
07 May
08 Raab
09 Hunt
10 Francoise and the rest.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I would love to unseat Boris...


So would I but not by cheating .


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 423122


jeez!
i never thought id want to applaud anything you made a statement on
but then i suppose its only a c/p from someone else
so perhaps they should get the plaudits


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Another of your conspiracy theories?


Seen on Facebook:

Having just found out about the Ryan Jacobsz scandal on BBC's QT special last night, is it possible for us to put together a list here of all the deceitful methods that the tories have employed so far in this GE campaign?
From my own memory I can recall, in reverse chronological order:
1. Ryan Jacobsz, Tory audience member plant, on BBC QT
2. Tweeting a false manifesto from Labour party
3. Doctored video of Jess Phillips Labour MP
4. YouGov poll suggesting Boris won the debate vs Corbyn released before the debate had even aired
5. Pretending to be an independent fact checking service during the Boris vs Corbyn debate
6. Doctoring a video of Kier Starmer interview
7. Fake perspective at the tory party rally to make his audience look larger than it was.
Are there others I have forgotten?



mrs phas said:


> And yet you are the one who persists in bringing up Hitler and Nazi connections, to, try, to win arguments in the brexit thread
> Hypocrite I think is the word you're searching for














Magyarmum said:


> You're being selective as per norm. I was referring to the whole post where you link everything together to prove your own theory.
> 
> How pompous can you get about the pronunciation of Epstein's name!. It's nothing to do with generations as you put it.
> 
> You find the same alteration of surnames in South Africa with French Huguenot surnames. The classic example is Labuchagne which in France and Europe is pronounced La-boo-shane but in South Africa is La-boo-shag-knee.
> 
> I'm sure no one (apart from you) would insist on changing the pronunciation of Marnus Labuchagne's surname when he plays cricket in the UK because they're of a "later" generation and "English European".
> 
> Isn't it about time you stopped living in the 1930's?


I live in the present day. I was referring to a Facebook post that insinuated Corbyn was anti-Semitic through using the German (and indeed European) pronunciation. I merely pointed out to the OP that Nazi Germany had ended in 1945.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> So would I but not by cheating .


Yet he got away with lies and cheating in 2016 and may win this election on doing the same.

What goes around may come around....


----------



## Elles

The woman attacking Jo Swinson is an actress who was on Corrie too.

The country is full of ordinary members of the public, but QT can’t seem to find any. The beeb reckon they research the audience to make sure they’re just ordinary folk, so someone isn’t doing their due diligence. I wonder if Boris was interrupted so often to give him less time to put his foot in it too.


----------



## Guest

Which party leader can be trusted?
What a mess the United Kingdom is in.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yet he got away with lies and cheating in 2016 and may win this election on doing the same.
> 
> What goes around may come around....


maybe it will but double voting is fraud which I believe is illegal .
Just because one side cheats , doesnt mean its ok for the other side to cheat as well.
How can you trust any side that cheats?

"The most prevalent fraud is thought to be multiple voting. It involves using the registered polling details of other people on a mass scale. Universities are vulnerable to this because polling cards for thousands of registered students are distributed to campuses and halls of residence.

They are often sent to students who have already left university for the holidays - a particular problem with this election given that polling day coincides with Christmas end of term - or to those who have already graduated, sometimes years before.

After they have been collected by campus campaigners, the polling cards are redistributed to other like-minded students.

On university social media sites there is even talk of students registering to get a polling card then selling it on to Left-wing activists who then use it. "


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> maybe it will but double voting is fraud which I believe is illegal .
> Just because one side cheats , doesnt mean its ok for the other side to cheat as well.
> How can you trust any side that cheats?
> 
> "The most prevalent fraud is thought to be multiple voting. It involves using the registered polling details of other people on a mass scale. Universities are vulnerable to this because polling cards for thousands of registered students are distributed to campuses and halls of residence.
> 
> They are often sent to students who have already left university for the holidays - a particular problem with this election given that polling day coincides with Christmas end of term - or to those who have already graduated, sometimes years before.
> 
> After they have been collected by campus campaigners, the polling cards are redistributed to other like-minded students.
> 
> On university social media sites there is even talk of students registering to get a polling card then selling it on to Left-wing activists who then use it. "


I agree, but this sort of thing has now become the norm as long as it favours Johnson and the Tories.

And the Boris Backing Corporation are, again, caught out editing footage....


----------



## Elles

Ridiculous, anyone watching it at the time could see what happened. Neither the BBC nor anyone else leaves in clapping and cheering and booing unless they’re using it to make a point, when they’re putting out an edited, shortened version of highlights. How is that frightening? No one trusts Boris, we don’t need laughter to confirm it, or even the response of a QT audience. I’m sure they edited out Corbyn and Swinson being jeered at and laughed at too.


----------



## kimthecat

Reading the treats about Strictly . Apparently remainers are not going to vote for the brilliant kelvin because he voted Brexit and so is racist.
Indeed , Brexiteers are being called Brexshiteers. The Remainers are such charming people ! 

Brendan
@Brendan_1977
Replying to
@StrictlySid
Oh no I just found out he's a Brexshiteer! Great dancer although I hated the song.


----------



## Guest

I see with the leaders approval ratings that Boris is ahead at zero percent whilst Corbyn and Swinson are in the minus.









I thought you had to register to vote in the United Kingdom by law?









The Conservatives seem to be ahead in the opinion polls.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I live in the present day.


You had me fooled.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> The Remainers are such charming people


You must be wrong, Kim; it's only Brexiters who abuse people surely.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Reading the treats about Strictly . Apparently remainers are not going to vote for the brilliant kelvin because he voted Brexit and so is racist.
> Indeed , Brexiteers are being called Brexshiteers. The Remainers are such charming people !
> 
> Brendan
> @Brendan_1977
> Replying to
> @StrictlySid
> Oh no I just found out he's a Brexshiteer! Great dancer although I hated the song.


He wouldn't get my vote for the same reason, but it's wrong to insinuate Remainers accuse him of being rascist. I don't even know who he is to tell you the truth. He voted and promotes Brexit. That's the issue.

In the 1980s, many celebrities openly came out in favour of the Tory party which went against them for similar reasons. Included Cilla Black, Ken Dodd, Bob Monkhouse and Kenny Everett I recall.

Not really relevant to this thread either, but what do people think of the complaints the BBC received about having a same sex dance? Really are returning to the dark ages to think so many were offended by that.....


----------



## rona

Sigh......... Again I'm going to have to vote against my own benefit ( I'm a Waspi and could get £15,000 payout from Labour) because I'm so sure that getting out of the EU is the best thing to do. ASAP

I'm not rich either and £15,000 would make a huge difference to my later life


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> H
> 
> Not really relevant to this thread either, but what do people think of the complaints the BBC received about having a same sex dance? Really are returning to the dark ages to think so many were offended by that.....


Its been talked about in the Anyone watching Strictly thread in General . I loved it and dont see what the fuss is . It was a contemporary dance.


----------



## Beth78

Whisp is going to get the loser for Christmas


----------



## Elles

Beth78 said:


> Whisp is going to get the loser for Christmas
> View attachment 423213


Whisp is getting two toys for Christmas. They're both losers.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Its been talked about in the Anyone watching Strictly thread in General . I loved it and dont see what the fuss is . It was a contemporary dance.


The"so many being offended", was actually 200 people who complained :Jawdrop.

.Considering Strictly has a following of over 8 million people, "so many" is a gross exaggeration

No doubt the erroneous information was taken from Fakebook as per normal


----------



## Elles

The quote apparently was socialist Goebbels not Hitler, which if true is rather ironic, giving the content of the meme.

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a29888680/tv-complaints-2019/

It was 189. The main complaint was that the lgbt community is being too heavily promoted and portrayed on tv, when it's a minority group. We also have to remember that some religions are particularly homophobic, so 189 is a very small number.

More people complained about gay relationships being stereotyped on tv as always ending badly, and Piers Morgan's comments on self identification.


----------



## JANICE199

*The more i see on social media i don't think Jeremy stands a chance of winning. DON'T get me wrong, i believe 100% he is the right man/person for the job. The mainstream media is fixed, imho and if we saw the underhanded tactics being used by the tories in any other country we would be up in arms.*
*How many people actually sit back and think, why are the media hell bent on discrediting Corbyn? The powers that be are running scarred, that's why. And that's why i have only voted for Corbyn in all my years. This country, or should i say the government, should hang their heads in shame. :Arghh*


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *The more i see on social media i don't think Jeremy stands a chance of winning. DON'T get me wrong, i believe 100% he is the right man/person for the job. The mainstream media is fixed, imho and if we saw the underhanded tactics being used by the tories in any other country we would be up in arms.*
> *How many people actually sit back and think, why are the media hell bent on discrediting Corbyn? The powers that be are running scarred, that's why. And that's why i have only voted for Corbyn in all my years. This country, or should i say the government, should hang their heads in shame. :Arghh*


 It depends which paper you read. The Daily Mirror is for him and I assume the Guardian is.
He's not popular , i dont think he will make a good PM. hes too wishy washy . I would only vote labour if they get a decent leader.

he has a lot of support on Twitter , they get r eally nasty if you criticise him.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Sigh......... Again I'm going to have to vote against my own benefit ( I'm a Waspi and could get £15,000 payout from Labour) because I'm so sure that getting out of the EU is the best thing to do. ASAP
> 
> I'm not rich either and £15,000 would make a huge difference to my later life


That's rather tempting! Hmm m I dont think he can deliver. I;ll stick to Green or Lord Buckethead 
ETA
According to Carrie, the Tories are going to

Carrie Symonds
@carriesymonds
·
37m
Brilliant stuff in tory manifesto on animal welfare:

Ban imports from trophy hunting

Ban long journeys for slaughter

News laws on animal sentience

Tougher sentences for cruelty

Ivory ban

Ban primates as pets

Cat microchipping

Crackdown on dog smuggling Cat microchipping

Crackdown on dog smuggling


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/22/sacha-baron-cohen-facebook-propaganda

*Read Sacha Baron Cohen's scathing attack on Facebook in full: 'greatest propaganda machine in history*

In a speech, the actor argued that Facebook would have run ads by Hitler. Here are his remarks in full


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> That's rather tempting! Hmm m I dont think he can deliver. I;ll stick to Green or Lord Buckethead
> ETA
> According to Carrie, the Tories are going to
> 
> Carrie Symonds
> @carriesymonds
> ·
> 37m
> Brilliant stuff in tory manifesto on animal welfare:
> 
> Ban imports from trophy hunting
> 
> Ban long journeys for slaughter
> 
> News laws on animal sentience
> 
> Tougher sentences for cruelty
> 
> Ivory ban
> 
> Ban primates as pets
> 
> Cat microchipping
> 
> Crackdown on dog smuggling Cat microchipping
> 
> Crackdown on dog smuggling


I feel sorry for anyone who falls for this.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## kimthecat

This says it all !

Maureen (Mo) 

Nov 23
Dear Jeremy Corbyn, You couldn't be bothered to think about us WASPI women when you wrote your manifesto, even though you managed to think of lots of taxation to hit pensioners. Now the polls are against you, you belatedly want my vote.. No way, Jose! A WASPI women voter.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I still don't understand WASPI women, we knew the pension age was rising back in the 90's and that women were going to have to work longer!


----------



## KittenKong

Just a week or so from the "accidental" 2016 footage, the BBC are caught out again

https://www.facebook.com/529828153/posts/10158979772648154/


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I still don't understand WASPI women, we knew the pension age was rising back in the 90's and that women were going to have to work longer!


I don't know what they are arguing about generally. I was quite accepting, disappointed but accepting that our pension age should rise. Most of these women were the ones fighting for and insisting on equality. Well, equality was everyone retiring at the same time! 
What I don't think was right, was hitting those same women with another rise so close to their retirement


----------



## Mum2Heidi

rona said:


> I don't know what they are arguing about generally. I was quite accepting, disappointed but accepting that our pension age should rise. Most of these women were the ones fighting for and insisting on equality. Well, equality was everyone retiring at the same time!
> What I don't think was right, was hitting those same women with another rise so close to their retirement


......and increasing the contribution years to qualify for full pension from 30 to 35 without notice (that I'm aware of)


----------



## Jesthar

You know, I never thought I'd be typing the phrase "I agree with Piers Morgan", but whichever way you intend to vote I think we can agree that this attempt at twisted logic from the Tories is mind boggling to say the least 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=610213243054218



I have A-levels in both maths and English (including creative writing  ), but I can't comprehend how the phrase '50,000 _more_ nurses' can possibly be redefined to mean 'including 19,000 who already work for the NHS...' Even 31,000 more nurses would be a Good Thing, so why not say that and add 'we'll also try to increase staff retention'? :Facepalm:Eggonface


----------



## Elles

The promise is that there will be 50k more nurses than there are now.


“The Conservative manifesto pledges to add 50,000 nurses to the workforce in England by 2024-25.”

ie it actually pledges that there will be:

50,000 more nurses and 50 million more GP appointments

“Measured by full-time equivalent posts, there are currently around 280,000 nurses in England. 

This does not include the more than 40,000 vacancies for nursing roles. The Conservatives' pledge implies a net increase to around 330,000 by 2024-25 - that is nurses in posts and not including vacancies.”

The increase will include nurses who would normally leave and have to be replaced but are persuaded to stay on, nurses recruited from abroad, nurses who have left, but want to come back and new trainees. I think Piers just confused the woman. 

To have an extra 50k nurses than we have today, ie 330k, they would have to recruit more than 50k to account for nurses who are sick, leave or die, so it’s a more ambitious promise than just recruiting 50k. If they promised to recruit 50k more nurses, they could just replace the 50k that leave and end up with the same numbers. If 150k leave, they will have to recruit 200k to meet their numbers.

Of course momentum and Labour have manipulated the manifesto pledge to suit their agenda.

However, if their (mis) interpretation is correct, The Conservatives potentially aren’t promising any nurses. It will be interesting to see the considered response, rather than from someone put on the spot and doing a bad job of trying to explain.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> The promise is that there will be 50k more nurses than there are now.
> 
> "The Conservative manifesto pledges to add 50,000 nurses to the workforce in England by 2024-25."
> 
> ie it actually pledges that there will be:
> 
> 50,000 more nurses and 50 million more GP appointments
> 
> "Measured by full-time equivalent posts, there are currently around 280,000 nurses in England.
> 
> This does not include the more than 40,000 vacancies for nursing roles. The Conservatives' pledge implies a net increase to around 330,000 by 2024-25 - that is nurses in posts and not including vacancies."
> 
> The increase will include nurses who would normally leave and have to be replaced but are persuaded to stay on, nurses recruited from abroad, nurses who have left, but want to come back and new trainees. I think Piers just confused the woman.
> 
> To have an extra 50k nurses than we have today, ie 330k, they would have to recruit more than 50k to account for nurses who are sick, leave or die, so it's a more ambitious promise than just recruiting 50k. If they promised to recruit 50k more nurses, they could just replace the 50k that leave and end up with the same numbers. If 150k leave, they will have to recruit 200k to meet their numbers.
> 
> Of course momentum and Labour have manipulated the manifesto pledge to suit their agenda.
> 
> However, if their (mis) interpretation is correct, The Conservatives potentially aren't promising any nurses. It will be interesting to see the considered response, rather than from someone put on the spot and doing a bad job of trying to explain.


In fairness, Nicky Morgan was horrendous at explaining what the 'extra' 50k means.

She should have said that if nothing is changed and all things remaining equal, the NHS will lose 19,000 nurses. But with new policies etc in place, the plan is the retain those 19k AND recruit another 31k.

Nicky Morgan really should have been briefed a little better...


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> The promise is that there will be 50k more nurses than there are now.
> 
> "The Conservative manifesto pledges to add 50,000 nurses to the workforce in England by 2024-25."
> 
> ie it actually pledges that there will be:
> 
> 50,000 more nurses and 50 million more GP appointments
> 
> "Measured by full-time equivalent posts, there are currently around 280,000 nurses in England.
> 
> This does not include the more than 40,000 vacancies for nursing roles. The Conservatives' pledge implies a net increase to around 330,000 by 2024-25 - that is nurses in posts and not including vacancies."
> 
> The increase will include nurses who would normally leave and have to be replaced but are persuaded to stay on, nurses recruited from abroad, nurses who have left, but want to come back and new trainees. I think Piers just confused the woman.
> 
> To have an extra 50k nurses than we have today, ie 330k, they would have to recruit more than 50k to account for nurses who are sick, leave or die, so it's a more ambitious promise than just recruiting 50k. If they promised to recruit 50k more nurses, they could just replace the 50k that leave and end up with the same numbers. If 150k leave, they will have to recruit 200k to meet their numbers.
> 
> Of course momentum and Labour have manipulated the manifesto pledge to suit their agenda.
> 
> However, if their (mis) interpretation is correct, The Conservatives potentially aren't promising any nurses. It will be interesting to see the considered response, rather than from someone put on the spot and doing a bad job of trying to explain.


Not just politicians calling them out on it, though, is it?

Psychologically speaking, to most people, 'more nurses' means just that - _extra_ nurses, i.e. an 50,000 increase in the total number of nursing posts in the NHS. And even if people accept that filling vacancies, student nurses and apprentices count as 'more', counting existing workers you hope won't leave is stretching the bounds of credibility rather beyond the elastic limit. Why not just say 31,000 more? It's still a decent number!

If what they really mean is 'we'll aim to have 50,000 more nurses working in the NHS via extra retention, hiring overseas nurses, (who are subject to visa costs, plus the annual health tax where applicable on top of the usual taxes), introducing a grant to partially replace the bursaries which they scrapped in the first place, and 5,000 apprentice nurse placements', then they should say that - it's not hard to understand. The downside is it doesn't let them weasel their way out of it later, of course. 

For what it's worth, I have no particular axe to grind; I regard all election pledges as suspect. This one just pushes the envelope in all sorts of illogical ways...


----------



## Elles

If they intend there to be 330,000 nurses working in the nhs, rather than the 280,000 that there are now, it’s 50,000 more nurses isn’t it? 

How they end up with 330,000 is irrelevant to most people.

I’m actually more interested in whether they intend to increase training opportunities and train more nurses. I think the intention to recruit high numbers of nurses trained abroad and paid for by other countries who are then losing much needed staff to the U.K., is appalling.

So the criticism over number crunching, imo, actually detracts from the real issue, which is training and retaining, not just how many, but how.


----------



## Elles

No Party has ever stuck to manifesto promises and unless they win by a very large margin, it’s not even up to them whether they do or not.

This election is mainly about Brexit. All the other rubbish is lies and bribes to try to get us to vote them in imo.

I don’t think I can bring myself to vote for any of them.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> No Party has ever stuck to manifesto promises and unless they win by a very large margin, it's not even up to them whether they do or not.
> 
> This election is mainly about Brexit. All the other rubbish is lies and bribes to try to get us to vote them in imo.
> 
> I don't think I can bring myself to vote for any of them.


3 out of the 4 of our candidates have addresses more than 100 miles away from this constituency.

And Theodora Clarke is apparently currently shacked up in Sandon Hall Estate with the Earl of Harrowby's Step-son allegedly.

Thank goodness she understands the issues affecting real folk.


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> 3 out of the 4 of our candidates have addresses more than 100 miles away from this constituency.
> 
> And Theodora Clarke is apparently currently shacked up in Sandon Hall Estate with the Earl of Harrowby's Step-son allegedly.
> 
> Thank goodness she understands the issues affecting real folk.


Rees-Mogg's niece I see.

Billionaires are people too. They're also a minority group. Are you criticising the Conservatives for representing a minority group in the U.K.? Shame on you.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Rees-Mogg's niece I see.
> 
> Billionaires are people too. They're also a minority group. Are you criticising the Conservatives for representing a minority group in the U.K.? Shame on you.


Yes, yes I am


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> If they intend there to be 330,000 nurses working in the nhs, rather than the 280,000 that there are now, it's 50,000 more nurses isn't it?
> 
> How they end up with 330,000 is irrelevant to most people.


Except, as they are including 19,000 nurses currently already in the 280,000 in their 50,000 'more' nurses, to end up 330,000 nurses working in the NHS they'd have to up their pledge to 69,000 'more' nurses 



Elles said:


> I'm actually more interested in whether they intend to increase training opportunities and train more nurses. I think the intention to recruit high numbers of nurses trained abroad and paid for by other countries who are then losing much needed staff to the U.K., is appalling.


I suspect the answer to that is 'not if we can get away with it' - that would cost money, and they've also promised to deliver their promises without raising income tax, NI or VAT*. Overseas nurses have the advantage of not only do they not cost us anything to train, they also pay an annual health immigration surcharge, which is set to be increased from £400 a year to £625 a year AND extended to EEA nationals. As far as I am aware, there are currently no plans to exclude health service workers from the charges.

*yes, like you I'm wondering what they are planning to raise/introduce instead that isn't in the manifesto 



Elles said:


> So the criticism over number crunching, imo, actually detracts from the real issue, which is training and retaining, not just how many, but how.


Often, yes - but in this case I think it highlights quite nicely how numbers can be used to mislead, and also actually raises those very questions - how are they going to provide these all these extra nurses when they only plan on training around 19,000 (5,000 apprentices and guesstimate of 14,000 student nurses )? I'm not sure 'persuading people not to retire/move jobs/have kids and bring in overseas nurses' isn't the answer most people would hope for reading the headline.



Elles said:


> Billionaires are people too. They're also a minority group. Are you criticising the Conservatives for representing a minority group in the U.K.? Shame on you.


I think in this case one might have a credible case for arguing they are one minoroty group more than a little _over_-represented by the Conservatives 



Elles said:


> I don't think I can bring myself to vote for any of them.


It's not an inviting choice is it? I have only one rule, any vote but Tory (we have Rotten John Redwood, a particularly slimy specimen, unfortunately as well entrenched as a fully embedded tick). Beyond that, I might let Lorelei pick if I take her with me as usual!


----------



## Guest

I think it is terrible that there is more than 9 million people in the United Kingdom not registered properly to vote or refuse to register to vote.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> I think it is terrible that there is more than 9 million people in the United Kingdom not registered properly to vote or refuse to register to vote.


Wasn't that before the election was called and since then around 3 million have signed up?


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> I think it is terrible that there is more than 9 million people in the United Kingdom not registered properly to vote or refuse to register to vote.


 On my council's website, it makes a point of saying that it (registering) is a legal requirement, but it seems to make no difference.


----------



## JANICE199

*I want to see Boris's answer to this.*

https://www.theguardian.com/society...orbyn-reveals-dossier-proving-nhs-up-for-sale


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> On my council's website, it makes a point of saying that it (registering) is a legal requirement, but it seems to make no difference.


Well we are supposed to be fined £1000 if we don't respond.

I still suspect double registrations are happening.


----------



## Guest

Mum and Dad got their general election papers yesterday and they shredded them in their shredder as they aren't prepared to vote for anyone in this General Election.


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> Mum and Dad got their general election papers yesterday and they shredded them in their shredder as they aren't prepared to vote for anyone in this General Election.


Did they not send them back spoiled as @Jesthar (I think) advised?


----------



## Guest

MilleD said:


> Did they not send them back spoiled as @Jesthar (I think) advised?


No because on the information supplied with them it said if you put anything else on the ballot sheet it will not be counted.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> No because on the information supplied with them it said if you put anything else on the ballot sheet it will not be counted.


it isn't counted as a valid vote for a candidate, but it would have been counted as a spoiled ballot


----------



## kimthecat

Got my postal vote form. Boris is up against stiff competition. 12 candidates including Count Binface . Lord buckethead, Yace Yogenstein Interplanetary Time Lord ! Spoilt for choice , Im sorely tempted to vote for one of them .


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Got my postal vote form. Boris is up against stiff competition. 12 candidates including Count Binface . Lord buckethead, Yace Yogenstein Interplanetary Time Lord ! Spoilt for choice , Im sorely tempted to vote for one of them .


So would I, but in the end I'd have to vote for whoever came closest to ousting him last time given his margin wasn't great, my conscience wouldn't let me do anything else


----------



## Elles

The Conservatives said they’d introduce laws to make it impossible to privatise, sell off, or otherwise destroy the nhs, after Brexit, so they’ll have to put that back in I think.

We can read the documents ourselves. Guido Fawkes has links to them if anyone wants to read them. Corbyn has probably been hanging on to them to bring it up when he needs to. The rabbi speaking out against him probably prompted it. 

The Conservatives needed to be clearer, making it impossible through law, rather than just denying his claims though, if they want to put a stop to it.


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> The Conservatives said they'd introduce laws to make it impossible to privatise, sell off, or otherwise destroy the nhs, after Brexit, so they'll have to put that back in I think.
> 
> We can read the documents ourselves. Guido Fawkes has links to them if anyone wants to read them. Corbyn has probably been hanging on to them to bring it up when he needs to. The rabbi speaking out against him probably prompted it.
> 
> The Conservatives needed to be clearer, making it impossible through law, rather than just denying his claims though, if they want to put a stop to it.


*Boris said the NHS was NOT for sale. He has been proven to be a liar once again.*


----------



## SbanR

kimthecat said:


> Got my postal vote form. Boris is up against stiff competition. 12 candidates including Count Binface . Lord buckethead, Yace Yogenstein Interplanetary Time Lord ! Spoilt for choice , Im sorely tempted to vote for one of them .


I wish I had such a colourful line up to choose from. Sadly, only four candidates. From the traditional parties


----------



## Elles

No, he hasn’t. Corbyn says he has which is different.

The NHS isn’t for sale and Corbyn hasn’t proved it is.

(that was to Boris is a liar. I agree that he could well be a liar, but there is no proof that he’s lying about the nhs)


----------



## rona

JANICE199 said:


> *I want to see Boris's answer to this.*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...orbyn-reveals-dossier-proving-nhs-up-for-sale


Mmm, even the bit that Corbyn highlighted seemed to be trying to secure Drugs, nothing else. A very sensible move as the drug shortages in the EU are getting rather serious

https://www.eahp.eu/practice-and-policy/medicines-shortages
"In May 2019, EAHP together with 30 national and European associations of patients, consumers, healthcare professionals and public health advocates approached the European Commission with the request to start an investigation into the factors leading to medicines shortages. In September, the initiative gathered more than 40 organisations and reached out the to the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety (ENVI) committee of the European Parliament. In a letter addressed to the ENVI committee's chair, its vice chairs and the group coordinators, the initiative highlighted their growing concern about medicines shortages and called upon the ENVI committee to act."


----------



## rona

Also, it was a Labour Government that sold most of the buildings that our NHS is housed in


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Also, it was a Labour Government that sold most of the buildings that our NHS is housed in


Yeah, but 'New Labour' weren't dubbed 'Tory Lite' for nothing


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> I still suspect double registrations are happening.


 I thought a student could register in two places, but only vote in one of them (in a GE). But I guess they could vote in person at one and do a postal vote at the other. At a local election, they can vote at both was what I understood. I think the postal votes have always been very suss.


----------



## kimthecat

SbanR said:


> I wish I had such a colourful line up to choose from. Sadly, only four candidates. From the traditional parties


We have twelve ! I expect its to do with the fact that this is Boris's ward.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> So would I, but in the end I'd have to vote for whoever came closest to ousting him last time given his margin wasn't great, my conscience wouldn't let me do anything else


I'm voting Green. I'm not tactical voting.

I dont like the Tories or Labour . I dont want Boris to be our MP nor the Labour man,

I'm not voting for the Labour candidate. He posted anti semitic tweets as a teenager , he's 25 now , hes apologised . but he would , wouldnt he.


----------



## KittenKong

Reportedly, Johnson who found it funny to insult Muslim, Gay and black people doesn't like it when the joke is on him.

Reportedly, he's threatened to withdraw C4's broadcasting license for daring to empty chair him with an ice sculpture.

I don't remember Roy Hattersley threatening the BBC over a tub of lard in his place when he cancelled an appearance on, _Have I Got News For You?
_
Shades of Thames Television losing their franchise in 1991 for their refusal to block the transmission of the _Death on the Rock _documentary as requested by the Thatcher government....


----------



## KittenKong

The BBC exposed by their party of choice, featuring their cheerleaders.

What impartiality?

Hilarious!:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Well said, as seen on Facebook:

Ask yourself, why is Johnson too cowardly to face Andrew Neil? If he can't keep his word over a TV interview, how can anyone trust him to lead a country?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Reportedly, Johnson who found it funny to insult Muslim, Gay and black people doesn't like it when the joke is on him.
> 
> Reportedly, he's threatened to withdraw C4's broadcasting license for daring to empty chair him with an ice sculpture.
> 
> I don't remember Roy Hattersley threatening the BBC over a tub of lard in his place when he cancelled an appearance on, _Have I Got News For You?
> _
> Shades of Thames Television losing their franchise in 1991 for their refusal to block the transmission of the _Death on the Rock _documentary as requested by the Thatcher government....
> 
> View attachment 423660


You really will believe anything you read....


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> You really will believe anything you read....


The BBC covered it on their Breakfast programme with an interview with Gavin what's his name. They have made an official complaint about C4 to Ofcom and this could well be damaging to C4's future when their license comes up for review next year.

The Tory defended Johnson's absence by saying he was campaigning to get Brexit done and unleash Britain's Potential, you know, the usual soundbites those who can't grasp more than three worded slogans lap up.

He was rightly challenged in that Johnson had the opportunity to talk to the nation on national TV which he unilaterally declined to do.

Nicola Sturgeon, in contrast, travelled from Scotland to attend it!

It was a _*leadership *debate. Channel 4 had every right to decline a substitute._


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> The BBC covered it on their Breakfast programme with an interview with Gavin what's his name. They have made an official complaint about C4 to Ofcom and this could well be damaging to C4's future when their license comes up for review next year.
> 
> The Tory defended Johnson's absence by saying he was campaigning to get Brexit done and unleash Britain's Potential, you know, the usual soundbites those who can't grasp more than three worded slogans lap up.
> 
> He was rightly challenged in that Johnson had the opportunity to talk to the nation on national TV which he unilaterally declined to do.
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon, in contrast, travelled from Scotland to attend it!
> 
> It was a _*leadership *debate. Channel 4 had every right to decline a substitute._


Do you not think that 'withdrawing their broadcasting licence" and "making a complaint to Ofcom" are two _vastly _different things??

It's just clickbait crap and you click it.


----------



## Elles

They sent Gove, who was the environment minister and best placed to answer the questions, but Corbyn objected and was given the veto according to some reports. It sounds as though it was incredibly boring, with everyone just trying to outdo each other on who cared most anyway. I didn’t watch it, because I assumed it would just be everyone offering the world, since the climate protests and extinction rebellion brought climate to the forefront. They’ll all be lying and placating about it anyway. A channel 4 ‘stand and deliver’ is hardly of earth shattering importance, they have ideas above their station if you ask me. (Excuse the puns *groan* )


----------



## SbanR

What happens if the conservatives win a majority but Boris loses his seat?
Will he still be PM, or will he get the Order of the Boot?????


----------



## 3dogs2cats

SbanR said:


> What happens if the conservatives win a majority but Boris loses his seat?
> Will he still be PM, or will he get the Order of the Boot?????


He couldn't be Prime Minister if he lost his seat, potentially he could still be leader of the conservative party but not PM.


----------



## KittenKong

And some think I'm highly strung?!

Conspiring with Jeremy Corbyn for heaven's sake?:Hilarious At least he bothered to turn up.

This is a new low in British politics, broadcasters being told to, "Toe the line or else"....

Very much what I would expect from a dictator.

Oh yes, I've read about a LBC interview with Johnson, where Corbyn was apparently blamed for everything over the past nine years. Funny that, seeing he's only been Labour leader for four years.....


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Do you not think that 'withdrawing their broadcasting licence" and "making a complaint to Ofcom" are two _vastly _different things??
> 
> It's just clickbait crap and you click it.


I can't believe people are still defending this cretin quite frankly.

C4's broadcasting license comes up for renewal next year. The rightful actions of the broadcaster may now lose their broadcasting license due to yesterday that might not otherwise have happened.

Johnson refused to turn up for this important debate. The broadcaster didn't prevent him from it, but very rightly refused a substitute. A trick Theresa May adopted when putting Amber Rudd in her place on one of the debates in 2017.

They are making enemies out of the broadcaster, rather like how Thatcher condemned Thames TV to their fate for refusing to grant the request to withold the, "Death on the Rock" documentary.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> A channel 4 'stand and deliver' is hardly of earth shattering importance,


I agree, I didn't watch it either. Makes you wonder why the Tories feel the need to make such a big deal out of it. Nobody would be talking about it today if it weren't for an official complaint.


----------



## Elles

Jeremy Corbyn was probably really disappointed that he didn’t get to have a go at Boris about the Conservatives record on climate change. He probably had a 451 page document about infrastructure that mentioned flood defence, as proof that the Conservatives are secretly building an ark called Trident.

Boris knows his limitations hence he threw his dad and Michael Gove under the bus, instead of driving it himself.

Channel 4 have been accused of bias on here before. I said I watch Channel 4 news sometimes and was told it’s practically tv’s version of the Mail. :Hilarious I’d love to know what really happened. Did they agree to Gove, but the other leaders said no to the replacement. Or was Gove turning up instead of Boris, a bolt out of the blue?

More interesting than the actual debate it seems.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Did they agree to Gove, but the other leaders said no to the replacement. Or was Gove turning up instead of Boris, a bolt out of the blue?


I don't know. What we do know is that Boris was invited, Gove wasn't. Everyone else who was invited turned up and if they hadn't, or tried to send a replacement, I doubt they'd be putting formal complaints into Offcom. Best guess - better for the Tories to start such a furore rather than have their policies on this issue scrutinised.


----------



## Elles

SbanR said:


> What happens if the conservatives win a majority but Boris loses his seat?
> Will he still be PM, or will he get the Order of the Boot?????


Technically he can be made a Lord and continue as PM if the Conservatives win a majority, even if he loses his seat. Chances are he will be asked to resign instead though. Apparently.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> I don't know. What we do know is that Boris was invited, Gove wasn't. Everyone else who was invited turned up and if they hadn't, or tried to send a replacement, I doubt they'd be putting formal complaints into Offcom. Best guess - better for the Tories to start such a furore rather than have their policies on this issue scrutinised.


Have Boris scrutinised on the issue you mean? They didn't mind Gove, who was environment minister, being scrutinised. It would probably have been on previous record and not future too I would think. They can all promise anything they like, but only the Tories have a recent record on the environment and Gove is probably the only one who has accurate figures on it. If Gove makes a mistake, puts his foot in it, or doesn't know something, it would hardly impact on the Tories, or Boris, so far safer to use him.

I doubt Boris has a clue tbh. I'm sure we all know why Boris wouldn't do it. No one is being fooled. He didn't want to do it, because he's an idiot who has no interest in climate change and it would be easy for the Greens to call him out on it. They'd all be piling into Boris like a pack of hyenas, instead it was boring from what I hear. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

SbanR said:


> What happens if the conservatives win a majority but Boris loses his seat?
> Will he still be PM, or will he get the Order of the Boot?????


 i was wondering that . I have asked before but its seems no ones know.

Eta just read @Ellles post .


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Ice sculpture takes lead in polls*
29th November 2019








*THE ice sculpture in last night's Channel 4 debate has roared to a 12-point lead in general election polling. *

The sculpture, now badly melted after standing under studio lights with a quiet dignity while politicians flailed about ineffectually, is trusted by three times more people than Boris Johnson and eight times more than Jeremy Corbyn.

Floating voter Nathan Muir said: "A lump of ice? Why not. Ice has done me no wrong.

"Yes, there was that time I slipped on a frozen puddle and fractured my pelvis, but that was my own fault. Unlike austerity and Corbyn's plan to tax me for not turning my garden over to a vegetable-growing collective.

"The ice sculpture was cold, sure, but not as cold as Theresa May. It was slippery, but not like that deceitful scumbag Johnson. It's destined to melt completely, but not as cravenly as the Lib Dems.

"I don't care if it's just a bucket of lukewarm water by December 12th. Draw a face on the bucket. It's our next prime minister."


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum

:Hilarious That made me laugh.

All this is really getting me down . What a mess.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> i was wondering that . I have asked before but its seems no ones know.
> 
> Eta just read @Ellles post .


This might help or maybe not !

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/prime-minister-lost-seat-general-election

*What happens if a prime minister loses their seat in a general election?*


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> This might help or maybe not !
> 
> https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/prime-minister-lost-seat-general-election
> 
> *What happens if a prime minister loses their seat in a general election?*


Thanks , that's interesting.  I guess we'll soon find out !


----------



## Dave S

Why is it that all pictures of Nigel Farrage his mouth is wide open - like a fish?


----------



## Elles

Dave S said:


> Why is it that all pictures of Nigel Farrage his mouth is wide open - like a fish?


Fake news.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I can't believe people are still defending this cretin quite frankly.
> 
> C4's broadcasting license comes up for renewal next year. The rightful actions of the broadcaster may now lose their broadcasting license due to yesterday that might not otherwise have happened.


They won't though, will they?

And I think you'll find I didn't defend anyone. I said you had been taken in with an over exaggeration on FB. Which you had.

Facebook is not reality.


----------



## kimthecat

Dave S said:


> Why is it that all pictures of Nigel Farrage his mouth is wide open - like a fish?


Wheres his teeth ? Has he taken his false ones out ?


----------



## Jesthar

Dave S said:


> Why is it that all pictures of Nigel Farrage his mouth is wide open - like a fish?


'Cos the idiot never shuts up!


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Have Boris scrutinised on the issue you mean?


Not quite. I mean it seems to be the modern form of campaigning to cry personal foul and turn the attention to that rather than be drilled down on the issues - across the board. You'd think people who wish to be elected to positions of power would have better tactics than 'I'm going to tell mummy'.

Just realised - where Boris is concerned it would of course be 'I'm going to tell nanny'.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> All this is really getting me down . What a mess.


If someone wrote a sitcom about it all, it would be turned down for being too unbelievable.


----------



## havoc

Calvine said:


> If someone wrote a sitcom about it all, it would be turned down for being too unbelievable.


Sure would. I'm sick of the lot of them and their stupid childish games.


----------



## Elles

They did. Yes Minister


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> They sent Gove, who was the environment minister and best placed to answer the questions, but Corbyn objected and was given the veto according to some reports. It sounds as though it was incredibly boring, with everyone just trying to outdo each other on who cared most anyway. I didn't watch it, because I assumed it would just be everyone offering the world, since the climate protests and extinction rebellion brought climate to the forefront. They'll all be lying and placating about it anyway. A channel 4 'stand and deliver' is hardly of earth shattering importance, they have ideas above their station if you ask me. (Excuse the puns *groan* )


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/channel-4s-climate-change-debate-was-a-sham/

*Channel 4's climate change debate was a sham*


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> They did. Yes Minister


Oh yes. Much like Dads Army, it's funny and true at the same time...

My only motto for this election is 'Any vote but Tory', so I shall have to see who stands the best chace of ousting our little over-priviledged incumbant...


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> They did. Yes Minister


If only the current situation was anywhere near similar. I somehow doubt Sir Humphrey would be changing names on social media.

I watched the programmes again only a few years ago and thought then how they were still so relevant - not any more.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> They won't though, will they?
> 
> And I think you'll find I didn't defend anyone. I said you had been taken in with an over exaggeration on FB. Which you had.
> 
> Facebook is not reality.


Who said anything about Facebook? I was referring to other media actually.

I heard it loud and clear from a a Tory minister this morning.

Whether C4 lose its license or not is irrelevant. It's their reaction to the incident that's worrying. What's more worrying is people like yourself defend this.

Still, here we go again with another timely terrorist incident.

Becoming the norm at Election time isn't it....


----------



## KittenKong

Rare credit indeed to the BBC for this.








https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rview-marr-bbc-general-election-a9225976.html


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Still, here we go again with another timely "terrorist" incident.
> 
> Becoming the norm at Election time isn't it....


Wow, what an utterly despicable thing to say. You really need to have a word with yourself.


----------



## Elles

If terrorists and sick people attack during election time, it’s no reason to cancel our elections and allow them to interfere with democracy in this country. Brave members of the public restrained a terrorist wearing an iud they had no idea was real or fake. They are to be highly commended. My thoughts are with the injured and their families.

In my opinion you should delete your post and hang your head in shame.


----------



## Guest

Well done to those members of public who wrestled this man to the ground and disarmed him from the knife he had used moments before hand to injure a number of people. Very brave of them.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Still, here we go again with another timely "terrorist" incident.
> 
> Becoming the norm at Election time isn't it....


What an awful attitude you have. I'm totally disgusted


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Still, here we go again with another timely "terrorist" incident.
> 
> Becoming the norm at Election time isn't it....


 WTF Do you know , I agree with a lot you say but this is ludicrous. People have been stabbed .


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> If terrorists and sick people attack during election time, it's no reason to cancel our elections and allow them to interfere with democracy in this country. Brave members of the public restrained a terrorist wearing an iud they had no idea was real or fake. They are to be highly commended. My thoughts are with the injured and their families.
> 
> In my opinion you should delete your post and hang your head in shame.


Now that further information has come to light I have amended, rather than deleted my post.

What's disgusting is people resorting to such activity at election times and how politicians capitalise on them.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Still, here we go again with another timely terrorist incident.
> 
> Becoming the norm at Election time isn't it....


I note you have deleted the quote marks around terrorist from your original post.

perhaps you could elaborate on what you are implying . What exactly do you think is happening here?
Who do you think the "terrorists" are ?

ETA I posted this before I saw your last reply above .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Now that further information has come to light I have amended, rather than deleted my post.
> 
> What's disgusting is people resorting to such activity at election times and how politicians capitalise on them.


Its disgusting when it happens at any time , peoples lives are wrecked for ever either injured or loss of a loved one .


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> They did. Yes Minister


 That was funny .
Remember The News Statesman with Rik Mayall as Alan B'stard :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

I remember what it was like in the 70's. When I went to London I walked everywhere because I thought taking the underground too dangerous!

My brother in law was one of the doctors who was called from St Barts to give emergency treatment to the victims of the Tower of London bombing in which one person was killed and 41 were injured some seriously..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/17/newsid_2514000/2514429.stm

*1974: Bomb blast at the Tower of London*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London

*List of terrorist incidents in London*


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I note you have deleted the quote marks around terrorist from your original post.
> 
> perhaps you could elaborate on what you are implying . What exactly do you think is happening here?
> Who do you think the "terrorists" are ?
> 
> ETA I posted this before I saw your last reply above .


Guess they could be anyone. I don't wish to speculate further.

Incidents like this seem to be becoming the norm at Election time and, in the case of Jo Cox, a referendum.

Sad isn't it.


----------



## Elles

It’s terrible and very frightening whenever it happens.  I was listening to Talk Radio who overlook the bridge. One of their staff in a taxi on her way to work, didn’t know whether to get out of her taxi and run with the people already running away, or stay put. She got out and ran.

Of course these lunatics will try to time it to make the most impact. It’s Black Friday and the area was packed with shoppers. It’s looks like a lorry may also be involved again and police are examining it.

Reports are that two members of the public were killed.


----------



## kimthecat

Which parties have you had leaflets from so far? Ive had a one page leaflet from the Greens and a posh letter from Boris.
No door knockers yet.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Reports are that two members of the public were killed.


Oh No .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> That was funny .
> Remember The News Statesman with Rik Mayall as Alan B'stard :Hilarious


"Fictional characters, purely coincidental if they represent anyone living or dead", in reverse.

Stand up Dominic Raab!


----------



## Elles

It needs it’s own thread.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Which parties have you had leaflets from so far? Ive had a one page leaflet from the Greens and a posh letter from Boris.
> No door knockers yet.


One from Labour and another from Farage plus a copy of, "The Brexiteer" paper.

The latter really are looking for support, which isn't a bad thing if it splits the Brexit vote between them and the Tories.

I live in a "moderately safe" Labour area that's vunerable to falling to the Tories hence my tactical vote for Labour.

I don't think any seat can be regarded as "safe" in this election.

Caught a bit of Question Time from Swindon yesterday, which had me thinking with the growing support for the Tories in the traditional "Labour" areas and the opposition to them in traditional Tory areas like there.

The England map could well change to blue south of the Scottish border and red or yellow as we head further South.


----------



## Elles

I’ve had one from the Tories and one from Labour. Highly unlikely Ben Bradshaw will lose his seat here.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I don't think any seat can be regarded as "safe" in this election.
> 
> .


That's a good point.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Brave members of the public restrained a terrorist


Really brave; and I've noticed recently that the public seem to have had enough, and have become far more ''have a go'' than previously, despite being fully aware that the guy is armed and prepared to kill.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> *Which parties have you had leaflets from so far?* Ive had a one page leaflet from the Greens and a posh letter from Boris.
> No door knockers yet.


The tories and the greens.


----------



## KittenKong

Disgusting.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Disgusting.
> 
> View attachment 423717


Yeah, its awful that we live in times where people can believe anything they read or see on Social Media...


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Yeah, its awful that we live in times where people can believe anything they read or see on Social Media...


Yes, the masses will believe this as no doubt the usual media will endorse this.

But Johnson can't do wrong.


----------



## Guest

A knife weilding man has gone on a stabbing spree here in the Netherlands on a main shopping street in the Hague. Dutch Politie are hunting a man in his late 40's after the attack in Hudson Bay Department store which was packed with shoppers for Black Friday sales. No arrests have been made yet but an extensive police search is underway. The condition of the wounded is unknown and the motive for the attack is unknown.


----------



## Guest

I see in the United Kingdom The Conservative Party have suspended campaigning for the General Election tonight and tomorrow (Saturday) and Labour have suspended campaigning for tonight.

Really sad to hear 2 people have died, one critical but stable and 2 others injured in the London attack.

News is breaking here in the Netherlands about the stabbing incident is ongoing with the politie saying 3 people so far injured.


----------



## KittenKong

Cannot happen in the UK I keep being told....

https://www.politico.eu/article/deja-vu-in-the-uk-as-a-turkish-exile-ive-seen-this-story-before/


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes, the masses will believe this as no doubt the usual media will endorse this.
> 
> But Johnson can't do wrong.


People wouldnt fall for it if they had faked a Boris Johnson tweet like that . They know he wouldnt say that .

Not Corbyn but I dont think this is fake.
Nicholas Quinn
@friendofjeremy
·
6h
I have just watched 2 seperate videos of the shooting on London Bridge and I have to tell you that I am very troubled by what I have seen. The guy is lying there motionless on the floor, and the policeman just shoots him dead. That is not bravery, that's an extra-judicial murder.


----------



## Elles

I have no idea whether Turkey has ever been comparable to Europe, or the U.K., but the author is incredibly biased in her article. Does it not occur to her that attacks on freedom of speech and democracy by the leftist sjws, extremists and activists might be what started this rhetoric, when moderate people were not allowed to express relatively moderate opinions and concerns, because someone might be offended, but leftist activists could say whatever they like. She hasn’t mentioned that male Tories receive the most death threats, or any of the insults thrown at perfectly nice people who voted to leave the Eu, or donated to charity.

Put your own house in order.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> People wouldnt fall for it if they had faked a Boris Johnson tweet like that . They know he wouldnt say that .
> 
> Not Corbyn but I dont think this is fake.
> Nicholas Quinn
> @friendofjeremy
> ·
> 6h
> I have just watched 2 seperate videos of the shooting on London Bridge and I have to tell you that I am very troubled by what I have seen. The guy is lying there motionless on the floor, and the policeman just shoots him dead. That is not bravery, that's an extra-judicial murder.


There are a few Corbyn supporters expressing the same, or similar view. The guy had just murdered people and was wearing a suicide vest. They should risk his murdering more people by activating a bomb on London Bridge I suppose.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> People wouldnt fall for it if they had faked a Boris Johnson tweet like that . They know he wouldnt say that .
> 
> Not Corbyn but I dont think this is fake.
> Nicholas Quinn
> @friendofjeremy
> ·
> 6h
> I have just watched 2 seperate videos of the shooting on London Bridge and I have to tell you that I am very troubled by what I have seen. The guy is lying there motionless on the floor, and the policeman just shoots him dead. That is not bravery, that's an extra-judicial murder.


Doesn't necessarily prove Corbyn agrees or not with this though, just because the poster goes under the banner @friendofjeremy.

That could mean Jeremy Kyle or even Jeremy Hunt for all we know.

EDIT- just looked him up. A supporter of George Galloway apparently.

I guess that's like if Stephen Yaxley-Lennon starting a Twitter feed, "@friendofboris", seeing he endorses him....


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Which parties have you had leaflets from so far? Ive had a one page leaflet from the Greens and a posh letter from Boris.
> No door knockers yet.


A few bits and bobs from the Lib Dems - actually sounds like a decent chap, local man and a doctor. 

Neither Labour or the Tories have bothered - Labour probably because they have less chance than a snowball in a volcano, and the Tories because he enjoyed a 30% majority in 2017 and doesn't feel the need to campaign.


----------



## KittenKong

Facebook post :

They fought him tooth and nail all the way.
The Tories, Churchill, the British Medical Association.
The newspapers called him a communist and a fascist.
They ran propaganda films in the cinemas against him.
But he got it through and established.
This Miner from Tredegar. He never took a backward step and helped create the NHS we all know and love. For all its faults you can still fall over in the street and have an ambulance come and pick you up and someone will try and make you well again.
That is still a Miracle to me.
God bless you Nye Bevan


----------



## KittenKong

Very good points:


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> I have just watched 2 seperate videos of the shooting on London Bridge and I have to tell you that I am very troubled by what I have seen. The guy is lying there motionless on the floor, and the policeman just shoots him dead. That is not bravery, that's an extra-judicial murder.


It bothered me too at first because I came upon the reports as the incident was unfolding. It did look a tad excessive - until I learned the guy was wearing a hoax vest. That guaranteed the most extreme force from armed officers and rightly so. It did take a little while for that information to filter through.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Doesn't necessarily prove Corbyn agrees or not with this though, just because the poster goes under the banner @friendofjeremy.
> 
> That could mean Jeremy Kyle or even Jeremy Hunt for all we know.
> 
> EDIT- just looked him up. A supporter of George Galloway apparently.
> 
> I guess that's like if Stephen Yaxley-Lennon starting a Twitter feed, "@friendofboris", seeing he endorses him....


Oh come off it! Who are you trying to kid?

This Nicholas Quinn bloke is by his own admission a ...........................

*Nicholas Quinn*
*@friendofjeremy*
Working-class Socialist. Believe in Marxist economics and (small-c) conservative social policies. Often called a militant/Trotskyite/loonyleftie

And the heading to his Twitter account is a ruddy great picture of Tony Benn with other members of the Labour party!

Of course he was referring to Jeremy Corbyn! A few of us "masses" aren't as daft as you seem to think!

A photo of Benn and Corbyn being buddy-buddy!








.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> A photo of Benn and Corbyn being buddy-buddy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


And your problem with Tony is what???


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> People wouldnt fall for it if they had faked a Boris Johnson tweet like that . They know he wouldnt say that .
> 
> Not Corbyn but I dont think this is fake.
> Nicholas Quinn
> @friendofjeremy
> ·
> 6h
> I have just watched 2 seperate videos of the shooting on London Bridge and I have to tell you that I am very troubled by what I have seen. The guy is lying there motionless on the floor, and the policeman just shoots him dead. That is not bravery, that's an extra-judicial murder.


It did look like that; quite shocking, though I imagine the policeman who shot the attacker was told to do so, and did not make the decision himself?


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> And your problem with Tony is what???


I don't have "a problem" with Tony Benn. What makes you think I do?

If you follow the thread you'd see that KK was denying that the Jeremy named in the Twitter page was Jeremy Corbyn.

If you look at the Twitter page you'll see there's a large photo of Labour Party members, one of whom was Tony Benn. I used him as an example to substantiate my claim that the Jeremy alluded to was in fact Jeremy Corbyn.

I could have used another Labour Party member in the photo such as Dennis Skinner. And no I don't have "a problem " with him either!


----------



## KittenKong

Surprise surprise, looks like the BBC have caved in and will allow Johnson to have a cosy Party Political Broadcast, sorry, interview with Andrew Marr on Sunday after all.

No need for the chat with Andrew Neil then .

This shouldn't surprise me. Maybe through the Tory activists within the BBC, or perhaps they're worried after his threats made to Channel 4 he would turn on the BBC as well.....


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-jack-merritt-father-daily-mail-a9228886.html


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Happy Paws2

Anyone see BJ on the Andrew Marr show yesterday, all he did was too keep talking so Andrew couldn't really ask any questions.

The idiot has verbal diarrhea every time someone tries talk to him, the man is a joke.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 423977


https://www.ft.com/content/8277af5c-144f-11ea-9ee4-11f260415385

*Boris Johnson to steer clear of Donald Trump to avoid endorsement*

https://gsy.bailiwickexpress.com/gsy/news/why-doesnt-guernsey-have-nhs/#.XeTzquhKjIU

*No NHS in Guernsey!*

https://www.locateguernsey.com/your-home/health-in-guernsey/

*Health*


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone see BJ on the Andrew Marr show yesterday, all he did was too keep talking so Andrew couldn't really ask any questions.
> 
> The idiot has verbal diarrhea every time someone tries talk to him, the man is a joke.


I was discussing politicians of the past on another similar thread on another forum.

I recalled nearly 35 years ago where we had Thatcher and Kinnock.

Now, whatever people thought of Thatcher, she was a very competent politician. In contrast, Kinnock was a buffoon, appallingly bad at interviews and could never be considered PM material.

Fast forward to the present day. Corbyn is looking the competent one compared to the dangerous populist idiot currently in No 10.


----------



## Elles

I think it’s awful how Corbyn is exaggerating and scaremongering over the NHS to get votes. It’s despicable. He’s even smiling about it, which if what he was saying was true is even worse. Of course he knows it isn’t true.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I think it's awful how Corbyn is exaggerating and scaremongering over the NHS to get votes. It's despicable. He's even smiling about it, which if what he was saying was true is even worse. Of course he knows it isn't true.


Define 'it', please? There's an awful lot being said about the NHS, some more accurate than others...


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I think it's awful how Corbyn is exaggerating and scaremongering over the NHS to get votes. It's despicable. He's even smiling about it, which if what he was saying was true is even worse. Of course he knows it isn't true.


You accept Johnson's word on that even if Trump said so himself? Who do you think will have the upper hand in a US trade deal?

Corbyn isn't scaremongering at all. Politicians from other parties except the BXP are saying the same.

Isn't election time rife for this sort of thing, just like Johnson and Patel capitalising on the tragic events last Friday by announcing strict Visa requirements for EU citizens post Brexit?

Odd really, seeing the assailant was British....


----------



## Elles

No, I don’t accept Johnson’s word. 

I read the papers, which have been on the Internet for over a month. Nowhere in them does it say the NHS is up for negotiation under May’s government. There will be discussions over some drugs that we might need from overseas, but the NHS has been buying drugs from the USA and other countries for years. Some drugs are only available from the USA. The papers aren’t the trade discussions and don’t involve the NHS, they’re testing the water for future talks under May’s government. Any government would be having similar discussions.

If Corbyn wants to prove that the NHS is for sale under a Boris led Conservative government he should have to do better than that. He doesn’t, because he waved around a bunch of papers with black lines run through them and had copies passed around at a press conference, by supposed NHS workers in scrubs and with stethoscopes. Did he think the journalists were at risk of heart failure from his publicity stunt? The full reports had been available on the Internet for over a month. It was a publicity stunt, based on talks held under Theresa May’s government, that had little to nothing to do with the NHS, but people believe his unconfirmed and unproven claims that are easily as bad as the £350m on the side of a bus. Worse even.

However he’s winning either way. He knew when he agreed to an election that he had this in his back pocket ready to pull out at an opportune moment. Last time it was lies to students, this time it’s lies about the NHS. He takes a grain of truth and turns it into a colourful paella. Every time, people who want to believe it, believe it. Trump didn’t know what the NHS is when he said everything is up for negotiation and you know it. He’s since been told and knows now that it’s not, even if it were possible, which he has also confirmed. Donald Trump wasn’t involved.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/public...'s Fund newsletters (main account)&utm_medium

*What have the parties pledged on health and care?*

https://fullfact.org/election-2019/bbc-and-itv-seven-party-debates-fact-checked/

*The BBC and ITV seven-party debates, fact checked*


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Magyarmum

JANICE199 said:


> *I want to see Boris's answer to this.*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...orbyn-reveals-dossier-proving-nhs-up-for-sale





JANICE199 said:


> *Boris said the NHS was NOT for sale. He has been proven to be a liar once again.*


https://graphika.com/uploads/Graphi...e=POLITICO.EU&utm_campaign=17aee521a0-EMAIL_C










*Operators keen to hide their identities disseminated leaked UK/US trade documents in a similar fashion to Russian operation "Secondary Infektion", exposed in June 2019*
The unredacted UK-US trade documents that leaked in the lead-up to Britain's general election were amplified online in a way that closely resembles the known Russian information operation "Secondary Infektion." The similarities to Secondary Infektion are not enough to provide conclusive attribution but are too close to be simply a coincidence. They could indicate a return of the actors behind Secondary Infektion or a sophisticated attempt by unknown actors to mimic it.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 424097


Brilliant, love it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


>


At least taxpayers weren't paying thousands of pounds to shareholders of the so called private companies, any money made went straight back into the rail networks.


----------



## KittenKong

Bit of good news.
No doubt Ofcom will now be threatened with being abolished.


----------



## Elles

Can we have a link to the full article that Boris wrote in 1995?

I read the full 2005 article that is also being criticised and agree with what he said. Boris has a habit of making statements that when taken out of context appear to be saying the complete opposite of what he is saying. 

Though 1995 is quite a long time ago, Corbyn has been criticised for taking tea with the IRA when they’d just blown up his colleagues, so it’s only fair that Boris’ past misdemeanours also come under scrutiny.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Bit of good news.
> No doubt Ofcom will now be threatened with being abolished.
> 
> View attachment 424110
> View attachment 424111




So channel 4 aren't getting their licence revoked after all??

Quelle surprise....


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> At least taxpayers weren't paying thousands of pounds to shareholders of the so called private companies, any money made went straight back into the rail networks.


But how much profit did they actually make and how much of tax payers was used to keep rail networks running?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> But how much profit did they actually make and how much of tax payers was used to keep rail networks running?


Public service isn't about profit. The NHS and the other emergency services don't exist to make a profit. Same with the BBC.

This was one of the reasons why the privatised Rail Track collapsed as it was impossible to profit from that, so was returned to public ownership.

Most of the privatised utilities are owned abroad nowadays, so profit will leave the UK. I understand our former water board are now owned by a Chinese consortium...

A frequent argument over the public sector is/was people resenting public money being invested in services they don't use, eg: car owners are less likely to use public transport and the rich who go private resent paying towards the NHS.

This is instrumental with the UK having one of, if not the highest rail and public transport fares in Europe.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So channel 4 aren't getting their licence revoked after all??
> 
> Quelle surprise....


Won't stop Johnson though will it. The IBA, as it was which had a similar role to Ofcom today cleared Thames Television when they broadcast "Death on the Rock" but that didn't stop Thames losing their franchise a few years later.

And the IBA itself was abolished!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Just incase anyone chooses to believe the Sun and Trump here's proof he's as much capable of telling the truth as Johnson is.

BBC and the Guardian respectively.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Won't stop Johnson though will it. The IBA, as it was which had a similar role to Ofcom today cleared Thames Television when they broadcast "Death on the Rock" but that didn't stop Thames losing their franchise a few years later.
> 
> And the IBA itself was abolished!!!


Due to a European Council Directive to encourage competition.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> supposed NHS workers in scrubs


 You mean this one maybe:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-labour-withdraws-party-video-featuring-actor


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Won't stop Johnson though will it. The IBA, as it was which had a similar role to Ofcom today cleared Thames Television when they broadcast "Death on the Rock" but that didn't stop Thames losing their franchise a few years later.
> 
> And the IBA itself was abolished!!!


https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/people/ap28476/thames-television

*Thames Television*

On 16 October 1991, Thames Television lost its ITV franchise to broadcast to London during weekdays from the beginning of January 1993 as a result of losing the silent auction used to renegotiate the new franchises. Thames bid £32.5 million while Carlton Television placed a bid of £43.2 million, and since both Thames and Carlton were deemed to have passed the quality threshold, the franchise was awarded to Carlton for having submitted the higher cash bid.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Won't stop Johnson though will it. The IBA, as it was which had a similar role to Ofcom today cleared Thames Television when they broadcast "Death on the Rock" but that didn't stop Thames losing their franchise a few years later.
> 
> And the IBA itself was abolished!!!





MilleD said:


> Due to a European Council Directive to encourage competition.


All under a Labour government too


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> All under a Labour government too


No actually. The edition of TV Eye was shown in the late 1980s. In the meantime Thatcher changed the structure of Independent Television and radio, abolished the IBA and replaced it with the ITC.

The franchise's under the new "Highest bidder/quality threshold" were established.The new contracts were awarded in 1991 with the new contracts starting on 1/1/93.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Public service isn't about profit. .


I was responding to HPs post
perhaps profit wasnt the right word .

Happy Paws2 said:
"At least taxpayers weren't paying thousands of pounds to shareholders of the so called private companies,* any money made *went straight back into the rail networks."

If it cant make a profit it would have to be subsidised and paid for by the public.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/boris-johnson-brexit-plans-for-tourism-1-6407826


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I was responding to HPs post
> perhaps profit wasnt the right word .
> 
> Happy Paws2 said:
> "At least taxpayers weren't paying thousands of pounds to shareholders of the so called private companies,* any money made *went straight back into the rail networks."
> 
> If it cant make a profit it would have to be subsidised and paid for by the public.


Of course, which is why the NHS for example is indeed that. It doesn't exist to make a profit.

Of course, as you say, if a nationalised utility/service did make a profit it would indeed have gone back into the rail networks rather than the shareholders. Others that didn't were axed which contributed to the Beeching axe.

Certainly, before public transport deregulation, there was talk of, "Profitable and unprofitable" bus routes. Rival companies tried to compete with these routes while the unprofitable were either axed or reduced. Transport authorities would sub contract some of these "Socially necessary but unprofitable" routes to the bus companies.

Most of them are owned abroad nowadays. It's amusing to note some rail and bus services are operated by Nationalised foriegn companies, such as the German DB Regio who I believe own Arriva and the French RATAP who operate a West London bus service.

I remember in the '80s there was much media controversy over the "Cheap fares" for public transport scheme in some Labour controlled areas, mainly the Metropolitan areas Thatcher had abolished with the GLC in 1986.

Perhaps I shouldn't mention the half price off peak Travel card scheme for UB40 holders in the Tyne and Wear PTE area to enable job seeking!

Like many other benefits it ended overnight with deregulation in mid 1986.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> But how much profit did they actually make and *how much of tax payers was used to keep rail networks running?*


Probably as much as taxpayers money is given now to the private rail companies.


----------



## Elles

Why don’t we do away with passports and visas altogether, so that people can go wherever they like. That should boost tourism.

Didn’t people vote for Brexit to bring in stronger border controls? 

Of course no one goes on holiday to countries where they might need a passport. I have to have a passport, so I stay at home. Probably the reason only a third of Germans have a passport is because two thirds don’t travel outside of Europe and don’t need one. When they do, they’ll get one.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Certainly, before public transport deregulation, there was talk of, "Profitable and unprofitable" bus routes. Rival companies tried to compete with these routes while the unprofitable were either axed or reduced. Transport authorities would sub contract some of these "Socially necessary but unprofitable" routes to the bus companies.
> 
> Like many other benefits it ended overnight with deregulation in mid 1986.


Not true.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Public service isn't about profit. The NHS and the other emergency services don't exist to make a profit. Same with the BBC.


I dont know why you're comparing the NHS to rail and other companies . Its not the same .


----------



## kimthecat

@Happy Paws2 Did you apply for a postal vote? I have míne and I have to remember to post it so it gets back in time.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I dont know why you're comparing the NHS to rail and other companies . Its not the same .


Perhaps they aren't, but the emphasis is on providing a service before profit with nationalised utilities.

With the NHS, introducing the market place into the system extends the profiteering to shareholders motive.

Like the Probation service and prisons now contracted out to the private sector which probably costs the taxpayer more than if they were left in the public sector, not forgetting the worse working conditions the staff will be on.

Our own GP surgery is now run by a private company. I can expect charges for seeing your GP to be introduced within the next couple of years


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Our own GP surgery is now run by a private company. I can expect charges for seeing your GP to be introduced within the next couple of year


My surgery has been run by one doctor who split from a local town surgery because he wanted to serve his patient better. It was very frowned upon to start with but he has full say, along with agreement of the other doctors/partners and it is the most well run surgery for many miles around and you can usually get an appointment for the same day, you can also book an appointment ahead of time, which you can't in all the others in this area.
With the others you have to ring when you are supposed to be working or travelling to work and sit on the phone until the dozen or more people before you in the queue are dealt with, often getting to the end of the queue, only to be told that you have to ring tomorrow.......repeat........ repeat........ repeat......... you then get told they can't fit you in for 3 weeks. 

If this is the result of private enterprise, then bring it on. This surgery has been running for 25 years and no charges are laid unless you want to go private.


----------



## JANICE199

rona said:


> My surgery has been run by one doctor who split from a local town surgery because he wanted to serve his patient better. It was very frowned upon to start with but he has full say, along with agreement of the other doctors/partners and it is the most well run surgery for many miles around and you can usually get an appointment for the same day, you can also book an appointment ahead of time, which you can't in all the others in this area.
> With the others you have to ring when you are supposed to be working or travelling to work and sit on the phone until the dozen or more people before you in the queue are dealt with, often getting to the end of the queue, only to be told that you have to ring tomorrow.......repeat........ repeat........ repeat......... you then get told they can't fit you in for 3 weeks.
> 
> If this is the result of private enterprise, then bring it on. This surgery has been running for 25 years and no charges are laid unless you want to go private.


*You do realise that many across the country are not so lucky, well i hope you do. I wouldn't wish private " enterprise " on this country.*


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps they aren't, but the emphasis is on providing a service before profit with nationalised utilities.
> 
> With the NHS, introducing the market place into the system extends the profiteering to shareholders motive.
> 
> Like the Probation service and prisons now contracted out to the private sector which probably costs the taxpayer more than if they were left in the public sector, not forgetting the worse working conditions the staff will be on.
> 
> Our own GP surgery is now run by a private company. I can expect charges for seeing your GP to be introduced within the next couple of years


You pay for dental treatment under the NHS or have you forgotten?

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/dentists/understanding-nhs-dental-charges/

*Understanding NHS dental charges*
Dentistry is one of the few NHS services where you have to pay a contribution towards the cost of your care. The information on this page explains what you may have to pay for your NHS dental treatment.


Emergency dental treatment - £22.70 This covers emergency care in a primary care NHS dental practice such as pain relief or a temporary filling.
Band 1 course of treatment - £22.70 This covers an examination, diagnosis (including X-rays), advice on how to prevent future problems, a scale and polish if clinically needed, and preventative care such as the application of fluoride varnish or fissure sealant if appropriate.

Band 2 course of treatment - £62.10 This covers everything listed in Band 1 above, plus any further treatment such as fillings, root canal work or removal of teeth but not more complex items covered by Band 3.

Band 3 course of treatment - £269.30 This covers everything listed in Bands 1 and 2 above, plus crowns, dentures, bridges and other laboratory work.


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum and glasses but hearing aids are free.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> If this is the result of private enterprise, then bring it on. This surgery has been running for 25 years and no charges are laid unless you want to go private.


I wonder how much they are charging the NHS though. The days of free treatment may be limited as we saw with dentistry and eye checks. Yes, the market place has increased competition in the sector, but dental and eye checks are no longer free.

I wonder how long it'll be before they charge for GP appointments? Arguably, it would reduce the time wasters if they were forced to cough up for each appointment of course.

Johnson had argued that people would appreciate the health sector more if they had to pay for it.

Then, "We survived two world wars". I'm sure we'll survive no NHS too.......


----------



## KittenKong

@#£€€€!!!!!

Not satisfied with attacking the unemployed, the woman's place is behind the kitchen sink again!


----------



## Elles

"The result is that in families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole - in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, Neets [not in education, employment or training] and mug you on the street corner."

Unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to (grow up to) mug you on the street corner. Although these days it would be attacking you from a moped, or knifing someone I suppose.

Where he's wrong is that his comments can easily be interpreted to mean that children of working parents, particularly mothers will grow up to be thugs. The usual Boris Johnson and why I wish he wasn't leader of the Conservatives and Labour wasn't so far left with Corbyn.

Labour want to pay for pre school kids to go to nursery or a child minder, rather than stay with a parent. They want to take away the tax relief from families where one parent doesn't work and give money for nurseries etc instead. I think the married allowance needs reviewing and modernising, but I don't agree that it needs abolishing.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> "The result is that in families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole - in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, Neets [not in education, employment or training] and mug you on the street corner."
> 
> Unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to (grow up to) mug you on the street corner. Although these days it would be attacking you from a moped, or knifing someone I suppose.
> 
> Where he's wrong is that his comments can easily be interpreted to mean that children of working parents, particularly mothers will grow up to be thugs. The usual Boris Johnson and why I wish he wasn't leader of the Conservatives and Labour wasn't so far left with Corbyn.
> 
> Labour want to pay for pre school kids to go to nursery or a child minder, rather than stay with a parent. They want to take away the tax relief from families where one parent doesn't work and give money for nurseries etc instead. I think the married allowance needs reviewing and modernising, but I don't agree that it needs abolishing.


A lot of couples could manage financially if they were paid the child care. They'd probably have more time to take the pressure of the care system too


----------



## rona

JANICE199 said:


> *You do realise that many across the country are not so lucky, well i hope you do. I wouldn't wish private " enterprise " on this country.*


Yes because they are relying on the state


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I wonder how much they are charging the NHS though.


The same per patient as any other surgery I would imagine. Why would or how could they charge more? All they've done is put patient care above profit


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> A lot of women could manage financially if they were paid the child care. They'd probably have more time to take the pressure of the care system too


There is already assistance for 2 year old and 3 & 4 year old kids if both or the lone parent are working isn't there? I'm not sure of the exact criteria, but I know it costs my local authority many millions a year.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> There is already assistance for 2 year old and 3 & 4 year old kids if both or the lone parent are working isn't there? I'm not sure of the exact criteria, but I know it costs my local authority many millions a year.


Yes. What I'm saying is, if that money was paid to the parents, many wouldn't have to work and kids would feel wanted


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> Yes. What I'm saying is, if that money was paid to the parents, many wouldn't have to work and kids would feel wanted


Oh, I see. So paying people to stay home with their kids?

I'm not sure I agree with that one to be honest. But that's just personal experience colouring my view the same way it would others' I guess.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Oh, I see. So paying people to stay home with their kids?
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that one to be honest. But that's just personal experience colouring my view the same way it would others' I guess.


If they want to. Lets face it, we are all paying for them to go out to work and generally kids are suffering. I think it has a huge effect on mental health of children and it also means they can be programmed by the state from a very early age


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> it also means they can be programmed by the state from a very early age


Kittenkong??


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> If they want to. Lets face it, we are all paying for them to go out to work and generally kids are suffering. I think it has a huge effect on mental health of children and it also means they can be programmed by the state from a very early age


Would work places have to keep jobs open, or assume they are not coming back? Then they'd have to apply for work and start again when the kids became school age.

This is how pension issues upon retirement happen...


----------



## lullabydream

MilleD said:


> Would work places have to keep jobs open, or assume they are not coming back? Then they'd have to apply for work and start again when the kids became school age.
> 
> This is how pension issues upon retirement happen...


It's not always as simple to go to work when children go to school.. Unless you are lucky enough to work term time at school so there maybe still be odd days at work when children not attending depending on your role. Children are in school 39 weeks a year approx, leaving 13 weeks when children are in infant/primary school age or if having additional needs that 13 weeks child care is needed and this can be hard for many.

It can be a real catch for many as it is, that for self worth, going to work even with help child care costs for a long period of time.

Sadly not every one has family to mind children as they may have done in years gone by. Plus the retirement age being raised, then it is unlikely too that families who have been lucky enough to have members in the past look after young children is not going to be the case.

Haven't worked in an early years setting for over 10 years, but I used to see many families defeated by the system. Yes childcare was free, and it has increased but usually jobs don't fall into 'free hours' so readily and the worry was always what will, happen when they go to school.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Would work places have to keep jobs open, or assume they are not coming back? Then they'd have to apply for work and start again when the kids became school age.
> 
> This is how pension issues upon retirement happen...


I just think children are more important than jobs. Also, if you've had the kids you should look after them. I know this cannot happen in some circumstances,but I just think, instead of spending millions getting kids looked after by strangers when parents work, support parents more to stay at home or work part time


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I just think children are more important than jobs. Also, if you've had the kids you should look after them. I know this cannot happen in some circumstances,but I just think, instead of spending millions getting kids looked after by strangers when parents work, support parents more to stay at home or work part time


I see your point absolutely, but it's unfair on the government to demean the unemployed the way they do, then slag off single parents and mother's who have to work.

For many, they have no choice as very few men can provide for their wives and families like they once could.

I'm sure many would love to stay at home and to look after the children. But the rent or mortgage needs to be paid....


----------



## havoc

rona said:


> I just think children are more important than jobs. Also, if you've had the kids you should look after them. I know this cannot happen in some circumstances,but I just think, instead of spending millions getting kids looked after by strangers when parents work, support parents more to stay at home or work part time


In the main I too would prefer to see very young children looked after by a parent - as long as we are talking about a commited parent. I guess there are many children who are better off in nursery though.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> I'm sure many would love to stay at home and to look after the children. But the rent or mortgage needs to be paid....


At prices set by the modern assumption of double income households. House prices couldn't have risen the way they have otherwise.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> In the main I too would prefer to see very young children looked after by a parent - as long as we are talking about a commited parent. I guess there are many children who are better off in nursery though.


I think the ideal is or few hours of nursery ( parents need time off for other stuff) or parent and baby groups etc...
I looked after mine for many years... downside though is the difficulty to come back to work with a long gap... especially in technology, IT etc...

But you can be a lazy parent as much a poor employee?

People should have a choice.Part time jobs will be ideal...

For parents, for older people who want to work still...
If I was a politician this would be my goal!!!

Working 20-30 hours a week!!! Then time for family or for rest...


----------



## mrs phas

rona said:


> I just think children are more important than jobs. Also, if you've had the kids you should look after them. I know this cannot happen in some circumstances,but I just think, instead of spending millions getting kids looked after by strangers when parents work, support parents more to stay at home or work part time


I have said this for years and been shouted down time and time again, by women who want to work and see themselves as not only working but keeping other women in work ( childminders)
I think, personally, its horrific that the government ships children off to nursery school at the age of two, theyre still babies at that age
most of europe start school at a later age than we do anyway, along with shorter days and weeks
those children have a higher literacy, science and maths rate than our children, together with less violence in society, so, obviously, theyre doing something right
its about time all parties championed mums, their right to choose to stay at home to look after their children AND be supported in doing so, the great job most do and give back pride to SAHMs for what they do to make their children good members of society ( not saying all working mothers children are ruffians, before anyone says that)
BUT
if mothers wish to go back to work, or are the major wage earner, then fathers, if present, should be given the first option, to be primary carers, again with full support, then grandparents or other family members, 
childminders should be a LAST resort, not the first
IMHO, the breakdown of our present, allbut disptopian, society began with the shipping of our children out to strangers who maynot follow the values we have in our homelife


----------



## DogLover1981

I can't vote and even if I could, I'm not sure how I'd feel about answering the poll. I don't know much about UK elections and British political parties. All I know is that Boris Johnson and his statements remind me of Donald Trump. He is funny and amusing. lol


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> I can't vote and even if I could, I'm not sure how I'd feel about answering the poll. I don't know much about UK elections and British political parties. All I know is that Boris Johnson and his statements remind me of Donald Trump. He is funny and amusing. lol


Boris Johnson looks to me like a cross between Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. lol


----------



## mrs phas

DogLover1981 said:


> I can't vote and even if I could, I'm not sure how I'd feel about answering the poll. I don't know much about UK elections and British political parties. All I know is that Boris Johnson and his statements remind me of Donald Trump. He is funny and amusing. lol


unfortunately he reminds everyone of donald trump
which is why everyone is scared he'll get back in
like trump he has no off button and thinks hes above the law


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> unfortunately he reminds everyone of donald trump
> which is why everyone is scared he'll get back in
> like trump he has no off button and thinks hes above the law


I don't think everyone is scared he'll get back in. I think many are more scared that he won't. Not because they support Boris, but because they're really terrified of Corbyn.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> I don't think everyone is scared he'll get back in. I think many are more scared that he won't. Not because they support Boris, but because they're really terrified of Corbyn.


thats dependant on where you are on the socio economic scale, whether you are on U/C and, especially, whether you are disabled
the disabled have been hit the hardest under successive tory governments
a rat would be a better PM, for the disabled, than more of the same


----------



## Elles

Then if he does get back in, we need to put pressure on the government to sort out universal credit and reverse some of the decisions they’ve made. I agree that some disabled have been treated abysmally by successive governments.

My neighbour who has MS and lives alone, has had her 3 bed council house fully converted for her, she has carers with her all of the time and is taken out daily. She is treated very well. My mother in law has been disabled and deteriorating for many years. She had been living at home in purpose built social housing, but a few months ago my ailing father in law could no longer cope and she went into a wonderful care home with fantastic staff. All paid for by the tax payer, as it should be. 

I can’t understand why many disabled people have to fight so hard to get the financial and practical help they need.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I’ve seen Labour’s Angela Rayner on tv a couple of times this week - so rude! 

She’s obnoxious.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://fullfact.org/election-2019/...LITICO.EU&utm_campaign=69ac2974da-EMAIL_CAMPA

*Labour claims about savings under their policies are not credible*


----------



## Lurcherlad

I don’t believe any of them tbh

They can promise rainbows and unicorns but they don’t have to deliver once they get into No.10


----------



## Bisbow

how anyone can even think about voting in a man who has terrorists as best friends, hates anything jewish and is sitting on the fence waiting for his bosses to tell him what way to jump about Brexit baffles me
Chilli would make a better PM than him


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> In the main I too would prefer to see very young children looked after by a parent - as long as we are talking about a commited parent. I guess there are many children who are better off in nursery though.


I was one. Much better off being in nursery than having the sh1tty treatment at home.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> I was one. Much better off being in nursery than having the sh1tty treatment at home.


Then others have the reverse experience. Whatever happens in a situation like yours, the child would feel unwanted, distressed and alone. While those at home in a loving environment would feel safe, confident and loved


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> how anyone can even think about voting in a man who has terrorists as best friends, hates anything jewish and is sitting on the fence waiting for his bosses to tell him what way to jump about Brexit baffles me
> Chilli would make a better PM than him


Gosh, Murdoch and Cummings must love you for falling for their soundbites and propaganda. Rather like most of England.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Bisbow said:


> how anyone can even think about voting in a man who has terrorists as best friends, hates anything jewish and is sitting on the fence waiting for his bosses to tell him what way to jump about Brexit baffles me
> Chilli would make a better PM than him


And showed himself to be an out and out liar when asked if he watched the Queen's Xmas message.

Instead of being honest and saying no, too busy with family and visiting the homeless shelter, etc. his default was to lie.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Gosh, Murdoch and Cummings must love you for falling for their soundbites and propaganda. Rather like most of England.
> 
> View attachment 424390


Can YOU prove anything I said is not true
I think not


----------



## Magyarmum

[*QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1065540502, member: 1431226"]Gosh, Murdoch and Cummings must love you for falling for their soundbites and propaganda. Rather like most of England.*

View attachment 424390
[/QUOTE]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/labou...panel-alongside-hamas-terror-leaders-in-2012/

*Labour head Corbyn sat on panel alongside Hamas terror leaders in 2012*

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...es-corbyn-allies-praised-socialist-venezuela/

*Video: The times that Corbyn and his allies praised socialist Venezuela*

https://www.businessinsider.com/money-corbyn-paid-iran-2016-7

*The money Jeremy Corbyn received from Iran demands an explanation*

spectator.co.uk/2017/05/labour-party-knew-corbyn-made-leader-now-country-knows/

*Labour knew about Corbyn and the IRA. Now the country knows*


----------



## mrs phas

Bisbow said:


> how anyone can even think about voting in a man who has terrorists as best friends, hates anything jewish and is sitting on the fence waiting for his bosses to tell him what way to jump about Brexit baffles me
> Chilli would make a better PM than him


Better than a misogynistic, Muslim hater, who bribes people like Farage, with talk of peerages et al, so that his Tory candidates have less competition in marginal constituencies, who leads a party in total disarray, which has made the UK not just the laughing stock of Europe but the whole world

Personally I don't give a flying pig who gets in, sh1t travels downwards, so those at the bottom of the pile (like myself) are ALWAYS worse off, whatever party will be in coalition with another, cos another hung parliament is the only thing we CAN bank on

BTW, I didn't mention corbyn, nor even hint in regard to him, I just mentioned people being afraid of trump clone BJ being back 'in charge'


----------



## Elles

We have a choice between Corbyn and Johnson, if we’re being realistic. I would guess more of us are more scared of Corbyn and socialism, that has never been proven to work anywhere, than we are of Boris.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> We have a choice between Corbyn and Johnson, if we're being realistic. I would guess more of us are more scared of Corbyn and socialism, that has never been proven to work anywhere, than we are of Boris.


more of the bergioisie, maybe, me, personally, id love to see them take a huge tax rise to pay for things we ALL need, instead of their bottles of Bolly and 6 holidays a year
and
whether we're being realistic or not
it was still, not me, who mentioned supporting Corbyn, i mentioned NOT supporting BJ

in fact, for the pedants, i said scared of BJ getting back in, didnt mention supporting/not supporting anyone

edit to add, i just realised, for those over a certain age, I sound like wolfie smith in this post
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Can YOU prove anything I said is not true
> I think not


I don't rely on the right wing press and other media for my sources of information.

The "scandal" over whether Corbyn watches the Queen's speech would appear to confirm that.

More important than the future of the NHS isn't it.

Then, I think we know what the priorities are...

Then, I can't prove what is true and what isn't, then neither can the right wing press. Them asking us to put our faith in Johnson is the biggest joke of all.

Do you remember, "The new Iron Lady" when May became leader?


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> And showed himself to be an out and out liar when asked if he watched the Queen's Xmas message.
> 
> Instead of being honest and saying no, too busy with family and visiting the homeless shelter, etc. his default was to lie.


You'll be arguing Johnson and Trump have never told a lie next.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157286868341939&id=6622931938


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> You'll be arguing Johnson has never told a lie next.


Er, no 



Lurcherlad said:


> I don't believe any of them tbh
> 
> They can promise rainbows and unicorns but they don't have to deliver once they get into No.10


----------



## Elles

I'd prefer religion kept out of politics altogether and most religions are mostly separate from politics. One in particular isn't.

Boris I think is more pro choice regarding this religion than I would be. To me the Burka and Niqab should be banned as symbols of extremism, oppression and religious fanaticism, much as nazi symbols and kkk uniform is frowned upon. Boris was saying that however ridiculous he thinks this attire looks ie the burka and letterbox, he believes in freedom of choice and doesn't believe it should be banned. Far from being a Muslim hater, he's supporting it, although mocking its look, which of course we aren't allowed to do.

Women (and other groups) in Muslim countries in the Middle East have no choice, or freedom and it's because of this religion.

Iran currently has a complete blackout and no Internet, while in Iraq and Iran citizens are murdered in their hundreds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...litia-supporters-converge-on-baghdad-protests

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...officials-give-green-light-to-crush-protests/

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/astonishing-rise-of-irans-heroic-christians/

I have no interest in religion and I would say live and let live, but that's not what happens is it.

You said most people are scared of Boris getting back in, I disagree, because I think more people are more scared of Corbyn getting in and not particularly afraid of Boris, even if like me, they don't agree with everything he stands for and although I've never met him, I don't like his public persona, but he doesn't scare me half so much as the current liberal left, who actually don't seem very liberal to me.


----------



## Dave S

Well, it's time soon to make your mind up and I see that the poll has JC leading by a long way.

As a good citizen I have listened to all the party leaders, tried to wade through the manifest of lies, watched the TV debacle, sorry debate and have come to the following conclusion;

BJ - A very British Trump who will make Britain including the Scottish people if they want to join us, the 53rd State of America. Usually coated in Teflon as nothing sticks and he believes he is above the law. A serial womaniser and an adulterer who has never had an original idea in that untidy head.

JC - Terrorist sympathiser who has courted countless dubious characters in the past, from IRA, Hamas, etc and found some of them jobs and homes.
Against all things "British" and wants to Nationalise most things. Wants to spend like crazy for a few years and will bankrupt the country and lead it back into the doldrums of the 70's and 80's. Believes in the power of the Unions, tells lies about not watching the Queens message and found it very difficult to apologise for anything.
Unable to answer any questions with a direct answer and will not commit himself to any decisions concerning getting out of Europe.

NF - A not very funny comedian with a big mouth that's always open and uttering gibberish. Needs to grow up, shut up and stop being stupid - latest thing he is saying he is going to muck up his voting paper.

Nicola Sturgeon - Jimmy Kranky's little sister - no effect this far south but irritating as she may hold a key to a hung Parliament.

and finally there is

Jo Swinson - good at holding her own in the Andrew Neil debate and apologised for past bad decisions in her party. Unfortunately wants to stop our exit from Europe against the wishes of the 17+ million people who voted to leave but that's Democracy as they say. Can hold the balance of power in the case of a hung Parliament and is very confident. Party has a few dodgy policies but they will never have overall power anyway.

So, having assessed the situation, I think the answer is that I will not vote for a Liar, a sympathiser, an adulterer or a loud mouthed idiot..
It may go to LibDems as Jo Swinson is at least confident and honest even though they have no chance of winning.

Here she is with a nude Sooty and Sweep show -









Posing as The Angel of the North -









And before she had them removed they were this big -









Pardon me if you find this irresponsible or insulting but after the last few years of political stupidity and general time wasting, indecision, arguments etc I am more than a bit fed up with these so-called elected representatives telling us what they are going to do which when called to do it find as many excuses to not do it. We need to support the NHS more, train more front line policemen, attend to the soft prison sentences that are given out, better look after people on benefits for what ever reason as long as it is genuine, take a long term view on the country's prosperity and many more things that are important to us as a nation. We must be able to look after our children and our children's children both financially and health and well-being.

AM I REALLY ASKING TOO MUCH?


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Thursday 5 December 2019 by Pete Redfern*

*People who don't watch the Queen's speech should be hung, drawn and quartered, insists Daily Mail*









*The Daily Mail has today called for the re-introduction of the death penalty after it emerged that not everyone tunes in to watch a pre-recorded broadcast from Her Majesty on Christmas Day.*

After Jeremy Corbyn made the stunning revelation that he, a die-hard socialist, didn't even know what time the Queen's speech is broadcast on Christmas Day, let alone watch it, staff at the Daily Mail quickly began angrily typing away on their Fisher-Price keyboards.

"Outrageous!" screamed deputy editor, Simon Williams, turning a new level of gammony hue.

"This terrorist loving, equality promoting, commie bastard doesn't even know what time Her Majesty is on the TV, which begs the question; how exactly does he spend his Christmas Day, eh?

"Probably meets up with the IRA or Hezbollah to smoke crack and smash commemorative plates depicting Her Majesty's coronation, or something like that, I imagine.

"We will be starting a campaign to bring back the death penalty for treacherous wretches like Corbyn, who dare to not watch Her Majesty's annual message of peace, hope and love, so that he and other offenders can be hanged.

"No, it doesn't matter what they were actually doing instead, it's much better we just speculate."

He added, "What's that? What about Prime Ministers who deliberately lie to Her Majesty? Oh, they can be let off, obviously - what's a little white lie between friends?

"And don't forget to vote for Boris next week, while we're on the subject."


----------



## Dave S

Magyarmum said:


> "We will be starting a campaign to bring back the death penalty for treacherous wretches like Corbyn, who dare to not watch Her Majesty's annual message of peace, hope and love, so that he and other offenders can be hanged.


I'm screwed then!


----------



## Elles

I’ve never seen it and have no idea what time it’s on either. Is it on the same time every year?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I've never seen it and have no idea what time it's on either. Is it on the same time every year?


3pm. It does change channel every year now, BBC one year, ITV the next.

Had to look that up, never watched it myself! Not my cup of Earl Grey...


----------



## Elles

Dave S said:


> It may go to LibDems as Jo Swinson is at least confident and honest even though they have no chance of winning.


If you're in Newcastle, they seem to be keeping quiet about the Lib Dem candidate's background and family. If it's brought up, it could be interesting, though possibly dangerous for him.


----------



## Elles

Boris needs to talk to Andrew Neil.


----------



## KittenKong

"He's so loveable, funny and cuddly isn't he".

Johnson, as endorsed by the This Morning presenters, yet continues to avoid real interviews.

Imagine him coping in a major crisis as PM....


----------



## Elles

He’s doing itv tomorrow. Corbyn has just finished his.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> real interviews.


They aren't real interviews though are they?

The ones I've seen are just sensationalism. These modern "interviwers" could learn a lot by watching a few Frost interviews.


----------



## Elles

Jo Swinson tweeted about her plans to reform the gender recognition act

“Jo Swinson has announced the Liberal Democrats’ plans to “completely reform” the Gender Recognition Act if the party gets into power after the general election.

The proposals include scrapping the need for medical reports to identify as a different gender, recognising non-binary genders, requiring schools to introduce gender-neutral uniforms and introducing an “X” gender option on passports.“

India Willoughby (trans woman) tweeted: “Jo Swinson and the LibDems haven’t got a clue about trans issues. They’ve listened to a bunch of re-branded transvestites with awful dress-sense, a megaphone and an agenda”

Looks like a popular policy with at least one high profile member of the trans community then. Good job Jo. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I've never seen it and have no idea what time it's on either. Is it on the same time every year?


We always watch it. It's a tradition .
I caught up with a programme about Stanley Baxter tonight and he was hilarious as the Queen ! If she gets fed up with doing her speech , he could take her place. .


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Imagine him coping in a major crisis as PM....


He'd probably delegate and expect Gove to stand in.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> They aren't real interviews though are they?
> 
> The ones I've seen are just sensationalism. These modern "interviwers" could learn a lot by watching a few Frost interviews.


Exactly, rather like when Theresa May appeared on the One Show.

Not viewing This Morning nor any daytime TV I didn't see the interviews. I've since heard Scofield gave Corbyn a hard time, yet was very pally with Johnson.

Yet, like May, Johnson is too much of a coward to face a proper interview.

Brian Walden, Robin Day and Frost. Wish they were still around.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50679255


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> We always watch it. It's a tradition .
> I caught up with a programme about Stanley Baxter tonight and he was hilarious as the Queen ! If she gets fed up with doing her speech , he could take her place. .


I thought he was dead
Guess I was wrong!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> New We have a choice between Corbyn and Johnson, if we're being realistic. I would guess more of us are more scared of Corbyn and socialism, that has never been proven to work anywhere, than we are of Boris.


I'm not scared of socialism - we already have it. Our NHS is our flagship example of our socialist principles.


----------



## CollieSlave

Elles said:


> Boris needs to talk to Andrew Neil.


Neil issues challenge to Boris -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50679252


----------



## KittenKong

Another refusal, this time for ITV.

I wonder how he'll cope in a crisis. Run away like he did in 2016 before Theresa May brought him back as a disastrous FS? That poor woman in Iran is still in prison because of his stupidity.

Like everything else, it's been buried under the table and conveniently forgotten about.
















https://www.itv.com/news/2019-12-05...ister-has-refused-julie-etchingham-interview/


----------



## KittenKong

This Tweet from Femi sums it up very well.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Not viewing This Morning nor any daytime TV I didn't see the interviews. I've since heard Scofield gave Corbyn a hard time, yet was very pally with Johnson.
> 
> Yet, like May, Johnson is too much of a coward to face a proper interview.


I haven't watched the morning interview either. I have however watched Andrew Neil and Andrew Marr, who by the way used up 40% of the interview with his own voice rather than listening to the answers.
They aren't interviews, they are muck racking exercises, that dwell in the past and seem to ignore the future. You'll hardly ever hear of policies on those interviews. 
Julie Etchingham is slightly better but even she shuts things down when the politicians are just starting to say something worthwhile.
You don't get to know the essence of a person by soundbites,you know more through conversation, these so called interviews only allow soundbites


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> I'm not scared of socialism - we already have it. Our NHS is our flagship example of our socialist principles.


In a free capitalist country. If we copied past and present socialist countries, there'd be no nhs. Show me a socialist country that has a nhs. Momentum and Corbyn are of concern, because they don't appear to me to be talking of democratic socialism which incorporates some capitalist ideology, but leaning more towards absolute socialism with their admiration of more extreme socialist idealism and countries.

The Conservative Party still have some socialist ideals to appeal to the public and voters in a free democratic country and are tempered by the wishes of parliament and the people.

Of course I'm more right leaning than left, so I'd never vote for Corbyn anyway.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, no surprise here.
I wonder how Ulster unionists would feel about this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-government-documents-election-a9235326.html


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> 3pm. It does change channel every year now, BBC one year, ITV the next.
> 
> Had to look that up, never watched it myself! Not my cup of Earl Grey...


Personally we're always too busy walking the corgis


----------



## MilleD

mrs phas said:


> more of the bergioisie, maybe, me, personally, id love to see them take a huge tax rise to pay for things we ALL need, instead of their bottles of Bolly and 6 holidays a year


Wouldn't work. Too high a rate of tax and people just go elsewhere = less tax than before the hike.


----------



## Elles

I thought they said there would be checks and paperwork after Brexit, but that they wouldn't be at a hard border in Ireland. The Eu never were going to allow goods to just cross from a none Eu country into an Eu country without some kind of checks, paperwork and compliance somewhere. Haven't Calais and other ports been preparing for it too? It was suggested a few weeks ago that up to 60% of goods could be subject to tariffs. It's not new and it's not secret is it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50439671

Boris Johnson said there would be no checks/tariffs on goods shipped from NI to the rest of the U.K. He didn't say there wouldn't be from the rest of the U.K. to NI. that's up to the EU, its rules and WTO rules if aforementioned goods were at risk of being shipped to the EU surely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50430815

It's like Corbyn has a filing cabinet full of 'secret' documents that he only thought to bring up now. I wonder what other ones he has.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> The Conservative Party still have some socialist ideals to appeal to the public


For most of my adult life I used to say I voted Tory because I'm a socialist. That's not an option any more. If anything, I fear more for democratic process under Boris than dear Jeremy and Momentum - and that's really saying something.


----------



## KittenKong

Now we hear Johnson is snubbing his own constituents!


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Now we hear Johnson is snubbing his own constituents!
> View attachment 424524


Do you have to shout so loud every time you post.
It has got o he point I don't bother to read them any more as I o not want to be deafend

I know you are seeking attention but you are getting desperate to try to prove your point


----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> Well, no surprise here.
> I wonder how Ulster unionists would feel about this?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-government-documents-election-a9235326.html
> View attachment 424511


*I hope and pray his stupid behaviour ( being polite there), doesn't start up the troubles again in Ireland. *


----------



## Elles

They're terrorists. If something like brexit sets them off with violent attacks again, it was never addressed properly in the first place. 17.4 million people voting to leave the Eu can’t be held to ransom by terrorists. Have they said they’ll start up again if there are checks and potentially tariffs on goods going into the Eu via NI? Why shouldn’t the Eu insist on checks and tariffs if that’s their rules and we’ve left the customs union and single market?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1575468764


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *I hope and pray his stupid behaviour ( being polite there), doesn't start up the troubles again in Ireland. *


Not only in Ireland I would imagine.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Do you have to shout so loud every time you post.
> It has got o he point I don't bother to read them any more as I o not want to be deafend
> 
> I know you are seeking attention but you are getting desperate to try to prove your point


I don't understand. I replied in the normal manner without deliberately increasing the size of my posts, unless it's the "!" you objected to?

This is how my post and your reply came up on my phone.


----------



## Elles

Special advisors may resign to campaign on behalf of their party, but may still support their MP/PM. As special advisor in government he will have been paid a lot of money, over £100k yearly, I presume as he resigned his official post, he’ll lose the pay. It doesn’t stop him continuing to advise Boris or work on his behalf.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I don't understand. I replied in the normal manner without deliberately increasing the size of my posts, unless it's the "!" you objected to?
> 
> This is how my post and your reply came up on my phone.
> 
> View attachment 424532
> 
> View attachment 424533


Let's put it this way, if your posts didn't take up so much space this thread would only be half as long ..... like 17 pages instead of 32!


----------



## Elles

We keep being told stuff as though it’s news and terribly scandalous. Shocking even. Boris listens to Cummings, there will be checks and possible tariffs on goods sold to the Eu after Brexit, Boris lies and says stupid things, Boris had relations with more than one woman, thinks that burkas look stupid and unloved kids from poor families are more likely to mug you. Donald Trump thought the nhs was part of trade negotiations until someone told him otherwise. 

We haven’t heard much about bleached chicken or China lately. Hong Kong activists were lauding Donald Trump and holding up posters of him, so Hong Kong reports have gone quiet. No one mentions Iran.

I’m fully expecting Jeremy Corbyn to be keeping his fait accompli under his hat until the last minute. I’m looking forward to reading about it.


----------



## Elles

I can see 3 or 4 posts on one page, other than your posts which take up more than one page on their own. Post #636 took up 3 pages. Or maybe that should be screens? I would need 3 screenshots.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I don't understand. I replied in the normal manner without deliberately increasing the size of my posts, unless it's the "!" you objected to?
> 
> This is how my post and your reply came up on my phone.
> 
> View attachment 424532
> 
> View attachment 424533


This is your post text compared to the things you paste in on my screen they are huge:


----------



## Elles

Labour on QT said their new deal will only take 3 months to negotiate because it would be Theresa May’s deal plus staying in the customs union. Theresa May’s deal did keep us in the single market and customs union. Labour voted against it and told us it was terrible. :Hungover 

So basically the new referendum would be Remain or Theresa May’s deal, which Labour already told us would be catastrophic. What are they on?


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Now we hear Johnson is snubbing his own constituents!
> View attachment 424524


Jeremy Corbyn didn't go to a local hustings in his constituency either, although Caroline Lucas asked him to.

"Labour sent Islington Council leader Richard Watts in Jeremy Corbyn's absence, while the Tories didn't attend."

Jeremy did none in the 2017 GE, although Theresa May did. She was heckled quite badly.


----------



## Elles

I would imagine that security would need to be particularly high if Boris had gone and arranged well in advance. It would have cost the area a fortune and would be quite risky. I’m not sure how much risk Corbyn would be under, not so much I expect. He’s not as controversial. Though I would expect he would need high security too and London is still affected by the terror attack, so I would expect both to be quite careful in the run up now.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, the BBC objected to the use of their Tory activists, sorry journalists being used in a promotional video.

Yet, no reaction to this apparent endorsement of the This Morning presenters being used to promote Johnson.

Says it all doesn't it. Not surprisingly, they're getting some stick on social media.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> This is your post text compared to the things you paste in on my screen they are huge:
> 
> View attachment 424538


Nothing to do with KK, that's the way the forum software renders images. They appear smaller on phones because they have to fit on the reduced screen width. Text is handled differently.

If I narrow my laptop browser so it is very narrow, the images get much smaller in relation to the text on that as well.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Nothing to do with KK, that's the way the forum software renders images. They appear smaller on phones because they have to fit on the reduced screen width. Text is handled differently.
> 
> If I narrow my laptop browser so it is very narrow, the images get much smaller in relation to the text on that as well.


Oh, I didn't spot that it was all images. I thought it was copied text and separate images. Doh

So every KK post is actually an image and that's why I haven't been able to quote snippets. It's not my iPad playing up.


----------



## JANICE199

*For anyone who wants a laugh look at jonathan pie's latest video. He's spot on talking about Boris and the tories.*


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> This is your post text compared to the things you paste in on my screen they are huge:
> 
> View attachment 424538


All I can say is I've made no attempt to deliberately make these huge. I insert them as screenshots uploaded as images having reduced the size to 800 pixels.

I always have done on this and the similar off topic Sabre Roads forum. This is the first complaint I've received on the matter.

Nevertheless, I would welcome any comments and suggestions.



Jesthar said:


> Nothing to do with KK, that's the way the forum software renders images. They appear smaller on phones because they have to fit on the reduced screen width. Text is handled differently.
> 
> If I narrow my laptop browser so it is very narrow, the images get much smaller in relation to the text on that as well.


You're probably right. I do 99.9% of my browsing on the phone nowadays. The forum does indeed look very different on a laptop.



Elles said:


> Oh, I didn't spot that it was all images. I thought it was copied text and separate images. Doh
> 
> So every KK post is actually an image and that's why I haven't been able to quote snippets. It's not my iPad playing up.


Yes, I usually text as normal making no adjustments to the font size, then upload the screenshots as images.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ictator-general-election-brexit-a9216861.html


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ictator-general-election-brexit-a9216861.html
> View attachment 424645


I'm not sure what you're doing to get such large images but below is your post #650 (above) which I've copied and pasted from the Independent Newspaper!

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ictator-general-election-brexit-a9216861.html

*The Tory manifesto is a sign of things to come - an elected dictator who will scrap our democracy*
*By, say, 2021, Boris Johnson will be free to just shut parliament down, for as long as he finds convenient. That really should frighten you. Don't say he hasn't tried to do it before*


----------



## KittenKong

Don't know if anyone else has seen this.

https://www.facebook.com/509038568/posts/10159242877563569/

Excellent.


----------



## KittenKong

Page 48 of the Tory manifesto is sinister. People are comparing it to Article 48 of the Weimar Republic, which let Hitler become a dictator. 
'After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts; the functioning of the Royal Prerogative; the role of the House of Lords; and access to justice for ordinary people.'


----------



## Elles

It’s not the first complaint, it’s been mentioned dozens of times about people swamping the forum with memes and copy/pasted articles, but I think most thought the text was text not an image and it was copying from newspapers, twitter etc as large and bold text. I thought you were just ignoring us.

Yourself and Noushka were who we were talking about when we complained. When I have to scroll 3 pages to get past just one of your posts it got too much and with Noushka doing it too, I would log on in the morning and have to scroll maybe 20 or more pages to get past your and Noushka’s posts that were mainly Facebook/Twitter posts from outsiders I couldn’t discuss with and pictures so I had to put you both on ignore.


----------



## Elles

So basically anti Tories have only just read the manifesto. We were discussing this within the first day. There are YouTube videos from November discussing it. Videos from pro and against. I read it myself and saw that the Tories were still licking their wounds over legal interruptions to their plans, passed by the Judiciary, Parliament and the House of Lords and outside their control.

It seems that the media and other interested parties are so far behind it’s looking deliberate. Let’s hang onto this until the last week then bombard with as much as we can with a handful of spice and hope we can scare the masses with it.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I'm not sure what you're doing to get such large images but below is your post #650 (above) which I've copied and pasted from the Independent Newspaper!
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ictator-general-election-brexit-a9216861.html
> 
> *The Tory manifesto is a sign of things to come - an elected dictator who will scrap our democracy*
> *By, say, 2021, Boris Johnson will be free to just shut parliament down, for as long as he finds convenient. That really should frighten you. Don't say he hasn't tried to do it before*


KK is using smartphone screenshots, not text copy/paste. Tends to be the easier option on a smartphone



KittenKong said:


> All I can say is I've made no attempt to deliberately make these huge. I insert them as screenshots uploaded as images having reduced the size to 800 pixels.
> 
> I always have done on this and the similar off topic Sabre Roads forum. This is the first complaint I've received on the matter.
> 
> Nevertheless, I would welcome any comments and suggestions.


400 pixels would be worth a try. Should still be readable, but not massive! Saves storage space and bandwidth too


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> So basically anti Tories have only just read the manifesto


Far from it, it's been discussed at great length though not in the redtops or the popular press until now. It isn't a photoshopped image or the opinion of some radical socialist - it's real and (I think) extremely worrying. The 'loony left' might have some outlandish ideas but they've never even come close to trying to grab absolute power. When an individual on the (ever further) right doesn't even try to hide such a power grab we could be in real trouble. If done, there's nothing which then can't be done because there's no mechanism to stop it - no checks or balances.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Far from it, it's been discussed at great length though not in the redtops or the popular press until now. It isn't a photoshopped image or the opinion of some radical socialist - it's real and (I think) extremely worrying. The 'loony left' might have some outlandish ideas but they've never even come close to trying to grab absolute power. When an individual on the (ever further) right doesn't even try to hide such a power grab we could be in real trouble. If done, there's nothing which then can't be done because there's no mechanism to stop it - no checks or balances.


That's what I'm saying. It's been discussed for weeks. Maybe KK has only just seen it. It's Boris' lot trying to stop the judiciary from interfering when they prorogue parliament, or say they're going to do something on a certain date. Parliament, the speaker and the House of Lords are going to agree with the PM being given absolute power and Boris being above the law of course. The people are sovereign.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> That's what I'm saying. It's been discussed for weeks. Maybe KK has only just seen it.


Discussed amongst interested parties and in the more wordy of the newspapers and political commentary publications, yes. In the popular press your average householder reads not so much, if at all.


Elles said:


> It's Boris' lot trying to stop the judiciary from interfering when they prorogue parliament, or say they're going to do something on a certain date. Parliament, the speaker and the House of Lords are going to agree with the PM being given absolute power and Boris being above the law of course. The people are sovereign.


That's the thing, though. If the PM can override both Houses at will, including the one elected by the people, then that rather detracts from the people being sovereign, doesn't it?


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Discussed amongst interested parties and in the more wordy of the newspapers and political commentary publications, yes. In the popular press your average householder reads not so much, if at all.
> 
> That's the thing, though. If the PM can override both Houses at will, including the one elected by the people, then that rather detracts from the people being sovereign, doesn't it?


How will Boris acquire this power?


----------



## ClaireLouise

Elles said:


> It's not the first complaint, it's been mentioned dozens of times about people swamping the forum with memes and copy/pasted articles, but I think most thought the text was text not an image and it was copying from newspapers, twitter etc as large and bold text. I thought you were just ignoring us.
> 
> Yourself and Noushka were who we were talking about when we complained. When I have to scroll 3 pages to get past just one of your posts it got too much and with Noushka doing it too, I would log on in the morning and have to scroll maybe 20 or more pages to get past your and Noushka's posts that were mainly Facebook/Twitter posts from outsiders I couldn't discuss with and pictures so I had to put you both on ignore.


100% agree. I've stopped reading and commenting on these type if threads due to the massive amount of copy and paste. Takes ages to scroll past and I wont read it anyway


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> How will Boris acquire this power?


'You' (general not personal) will let him - bit by bit. Every little bit sounds so reasonable when it's put forward in the right terms as something you want. Brexit has handed the opportunity on a plate - just constantly use a phrase like 'get Brexit done' and if anyone complains they're the ones accused of being undemocratic. All current Tory candidates have had to agree to vote with him on Brexit issues in order to stand so a majority will mean he will get whatever he wants as long as it's couched in those terms. The Lords can only delay - they can't block.


----------



## kimthecat

My postal vote is being posted today . 
Shame that both labour and Tory are now so extreme.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> My postal vote is being posted today .
> Shame that both labour and Tory are now so extreme.


There's no chance of a majority Labour government though. Priority for me is to defeat this bunch of lying fascists gaining a majority. That means voting tactically, putting aside ones views on Labour or the Lib Dems, depending on one's personal point of view.

The media have certainly gone into over drive in promoting Johnson with posts from far right sources disguised as others on Facebook. I've reported them as fake news.

I wonder how much it cost them to have a top advertising banner on You Tube too? This is before the panic negative campaigning from the usual media, except for Johnson of course.

Electing such a devisive figure as Johnson isn't going to end well.....


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## JANICE199

*Looks like Boris has upset the DUP. I wonder if they will still back him *


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *Looks like Boris has upset the DUP. I wonder if they will still back him *


What's he done now ! He manages to upset most people.


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> What's he done now ! He manages to upset most people.


*He lied lol again... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...wjVUZ3el-4vcp8U2guivgpnkM6UXbvJBPucmCZtYtlTPM*


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *He lied lol again... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...wjVUZ3el-4vcp8U2guivgpnkM6UXbvJBPucmCZtYtlTPM*


I bet his aides carry a fire extinguisher in case his pants catch on fire.


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *Looks like Boris has upset the DUP. I wonder if they will still back him *


Should Johnson win a majority through winning something like 30% of the vote, he'll go down in history as the most hated PM ever.

Like what Cameron did to the Lib Dems in 2015 on winning an unexpected majority, Johnson can afford to do the same with the DUP as he expects to win one himself with the help from the media.

Having made enemies with the SNP in Scotland with the threats to have their devolved powers returned to Westminster, I don't think the DUP will make particularly quiet enemies either.

Johnson will become an Idi Amin type of figure, he shows similar personality traits and comes out with similar rubbish.

I expect things could become very ugly in the years ahead.....


----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> Should Johnson win a majority through winning something like 30% of the vote, he'll go down in history as the most hated PM ever.
> 
> Like what Cameron did to the Lib Dems in 2015 on winning an unexpected majority, Johnson can afford to do the same with the DUP as he expects to win one himself with the help from the media.
> 
> Having made enemies with the SNP in Scotland with the threats to have their devolved powers returned to Westminster, I don't think the DUP will make particularly quiet enemies either.
> 
> Johnson will become an Idi Amin type of figure, he shows similar personality traits and comes out with similar rubbish.
> 
> I expect things could become very ugly in the years ahead.....


*I hate to think what state this country will be in if we another 5 years or more with a tory government. Very worrying *


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Should Johnson win a majority through winning something like 30% of the vote, he'll go down in history as the most hated PM ever.
> 
> Like what Cameron did to the Lib Dems in 2015 on winning an unexpected majority, Johnson can afford to do the same with the DUP as he expects to win one himself with the help from the media.
> 
> Having made enemies with the SNP in Scotland with the threats to have their devolved powers returned to Westminster, I don't think the DUP will make particularly quiet enemies either.
> 
> *Johnson will become an Idi Amin type of figure, he shows similar personality traits and comes out with similar rubbish.*
> 
> I expect things could become very ugly in the years ahead.....


Here we go again! You really haven't a clue what you're talking about do you?

There's no similarity between Idi Amin and BJ it's all in you head no doubt put there by your friends on Fakebook or Tweeter!

https://www.biography.com/political-figure/idi-amin
*
Idi Amin was a Ugandan president best known for his brutal regime and crimes against humanity while in power from 1971-1979.*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Here we go again! You really haven't a clue what you're talking about do you?
> 
> There's no similarity between Idi Amin and BJ it's all in you head no doubt put there by your friends on Fakebook or Tweeter!
> 
> https://www.biography.com/political-figure/idi-amin
> *
> Idi Amin was a Ugandan president best known for his brutal regime and crimes against humanity while in power from 1971-1979.*


As if your constant 'fascists' and 'Nazis' are not enough. Here's the charmer who used to feed prisoners to crocodiles and one of his wives was nicknamed ''Suicide Sarah'' .I have truly heard it all now.



KittenKong said:


> comes out with similar rubbish.


You are the one guilty of spouting rubbish as far as I can see.


----------



## Guest

The United Kingdom votes on Thursday. Last I read something was in Berlin (Whilst on holiday in Hannover and Berlin with my OH) last week and apparently Boris Johnson was liked more between Corbyn and Johnson in the last leaders debate and Johnson won the last leaders debate. 

Will be intetesting to see who wins on Friday.

The European Union 27 Leaders are still waiting to find out what the United Kingdom wants to do next with Brexit.


----------



## Elles

Maybe other parties should have supported Brexit.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> The United Kingdom votes on Thursday. Last I read something was in Berlin (Whilst on holiday in Hannover and Berlin with my OH) last week and apparently Boris Johnson was liked more between Corbyn and Johnson in the last leaders debate and Johnson won the last leaders debate.
> 
> Will be intetesting to see who wins on Friday.
> 
> The European Union 27 Leaders are still waiting to find out what the United Kingdom wants to do next with Brexit.


*Every day Boris has been shown to be a liar. As for the last leaders debate, wasn't that when the DUP backed him? If that is the case i'm not sure they will be backing him this time round.*


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I wonder how much it cost them to have a top advertising banner on You Tube too? This is before the panic negative campaigning from the usual media, except for Johnson of course.


I'm being offered Labour not the Conservatives on my YouTube. Not just banners. I just had to sit through a Labour ad. Makes a change from ads for Raid Shadow Legends I suppose.


----------



## Elles

JANICE199 said:


> *Every day Boris has been shown to be a liar. As for the last leaders debate, wasn't that when the DUP backed him? If that is the case i'm not sure they will be backing him this time round.*


They're all economical with the truth. Corbyn lies about his association with terrorists, how involved he was with the peace process begun by Maggie in 1985 and concluded by Mo Mowlam not Jeremy Corbyn and that his tax and NI changes will only affect the super rich. Is there anyone alive who still thinks politicians are unbiased, honest representatives of the people?

Boris actually rarely lies, he's careful in the same way Corbyn was about student loans. Corbyn didn't actually say he would cancel ongoing student loans, but he did let people think it. Boris also says things that are close to what people want to hear and the press does the rest.

That's why it's always best imo to hear it from the horse's mouth, watch full unedited video and do your own research, then draw your own conclusions. Rather than rely on media (mis)interpretations, Facebook and twitter accounts and various echo chambers.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Maybe other parties should have supported Brexit.


I think there is a difference between 'supporting Brexit' and 'bringing about Brexit ASAP whatever the cost' though.

Whichever way people voted, had Brexit been approached in a _sensible _fashion then although many who voted remain would still have preferred to remain, there may well have been a wider acceptance of the end position. Yes, that would not have been a fast process. It may well have been a few years worth of negotiations before we were in a position to sensibly trigger Article 50 having already sorted much of the withdrawal deal beforehand (as Leave originally promised they would). It would definitely have drawn ire from the 'Brexit Now!!!' brigade, and been boring, tedious and full of details that very few popular press readers would have given two hoots about. But it would have got the job done properly, given us time to enshrine the most important EU regulations into UK law (workers rights, environmental laws etc.), agree customs and border processes, build any infrastructure required - oh, and and large sections of our business community wouldn't be constantly debating whether they should spend large sums of potentially wasted money on preparing for a No-Deal scenario they were assured wouldn't happen for the best part of two years.

So, now we're three years down the line and the whole shebang is still firmly in the pig-in-a-poke stage, and no-one can make any sensible plans because no-one has a clue what is going on. It's like that episode of the Simpsons where their long lost relative lets Homer design a make-or-break car for his company...


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> They're all economical with the truth. Corbyn lies about his association with terrorists, how involved he was with the peace process begun by Maggie in 1985 and concluded by Mo Mowlam not Jeremy Corbyn and that his tax and NI changes will only affect the super rich. Is there anyone alive who still thinks politicians are unbiased, honest representatives of the people?
> 
> Boris actually rarely lies, he's careful in the same way Corbyn was about student loans. Corbyn didn't actually say he would cancel ongoing student loans, but he did let people think it. Boris also says things that are close to what people want to hear and the press does the rest.
> 
> That's why it's always best imo to hear it from the horse's mouth, watch full unedited video and do your own research, then draw your own conclusions. Rather than rely on media (mis)interpretations, Facebook and twitter accounts and various echo chambers.


*Are you kidding me? Boris is being proven to be a liar over and over again*


----------



## KittenKong

As if he couldn't possibly get any worse. This is absolutely disgusting.

Seeing he's American by birth, the rules should apply to him.

I expect repercussions with this policy. How many "British" people have adopted countries like Spain as their own?

Yesterday monkey chants at a match in little England.

Johnson and his lot are dangerous fascists.









https://www.businessinsider.com/bor...y-link&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=topbar


----------



## Guest

I understand nothing about politics, absolutely NOTHING.

The knowledge I have I learnt from South Park - you either vote for a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich.

So until I figure out what's what (probably never), I won't vote.


----------



## Elles

Like Brits who go to Spain and treat it like an extension of their own country? 

Actually, although it’s true, so long as no one brings some extreme religion and tries to convert us all, I don’t have a problem with it. I quite understand why Poles might want to open a Polish shop and make a little community. We might do it too, when we move abroad. It’s nice to have support from people who understand you and your familiar customs and language, even if you do integrate and take on local customs too.

Boris isn’t going to stop it, if that’s what he’s talking about. It’s still mostly a free country.


----------



## Guest

I love the attitude of 'if you come here, you're an immigrant, if we go there, we're expats'


----------



## Elles

AsahiGo said:


> I love the attitude of 'if you come here, you're an immigrant, if we go there, we're expats'


Do the French call us expats or immigrants?


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Do the French call us expats or immigrants?


From my own experience, what the rest of thr world calls Uk citizens is too blue to be used in civil conversation


----------



## Elles

AsahiGo said:


> From my own experience, what the rest of thr world calls Uk citizens is too blue to be used in civil conversation


:Hilarious

The Australians call us Poms don't they? Sometimes the media talk as though Brits are really terrible and everyone else is super kind and PC. Silly isn't it?


----------



## havoc

AsahiGo said:


> I love the attitude of 'if you come here, you're an immigrant, if we go there, we're expats


A Brit moving abroad isn't an immigrant to Britain. All those who choose to leave one country to take up permanent residence in another are emigrants but it often requires further clarification so isn't used much. Brits in Spain are British emigrants. The terms expat and immigrant give immediate clarity.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Do the French call us expats or immigrants?


Immigrants - A Brit to France. It's a from or to distinction.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Immigrants - A Brit to France. It's a from or to distinction.


In Spain some of the Spanish call us British expats and complain about expat communities. An expat(riate) is a person living in a country other than their native country. A French person living in the U.K. is therefore an expat, as is a Brit living in France.

The post was saying how it's odd that a French person living in the U.K. is called an immigrant, but a Brit living in France is called an expat. They could both be called expats, which I agree has better connotations than immigrant, which is what for me the post was implying. We're nicer about Brits living abroad, than we are about foreign citizens living here. The same probably applies in other countries. A French person quite possibly uses kinder language about his fellow countryman who lives in the U.K. than he does about the Brit who lives next door.


----------



## Magyarmum

AsahiGo said:


> From my own experience, what the rest of thr world calls Uk citizens is too blue to be used in civil conversation


That's not been my experience and I've lived abroad mainly in Africa for most of my life. And it hasn't been my experience either now living in Europe and visiting other European countries.


----------



## Guest

I refered to myself as a British when I moved to the Netherlands but I am now Dutch as I took up Dutch nationality. I don't remember having to tick any boxes on forms or running around telling everyone I was a British Expat. I would describe myself as Dutch if I wanted to move back to the United Kingdom (which I will never do).


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> That's not been my experience and I've lived abroad mainly in Africa for most of my life. And it hasn't been my experience either now living in Europe and visiting other European countries.


France and Spain aren't always complimentary.  Not always to our face though lol.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> I refered to myself as a British when I moved to the Netherlands but I am now Dutch as I took up Dutch nationality. I don't remember having to tick any boxes on forms or running around telling everyone I was a British Expat. I would describe myself as Dutch if I wanted to move back to the United Kingdom (which I will never do).


The Dutch are lovely I thought. They seem to assume you are Dutch too, until you say otherwise. At least that's been my experience.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> The Dutch are lovely I thought. They seem to assume you are Dutch too, until you say otherwise.


We are (The Dutch) lovely people and welcoming as well with a laid back attitude to life.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> France and Spain aren't always complimentary.  Not always to our face though lol.


.
I've worked in both France and Spain and half my family are French, and I can assure you the British aren't complimentary about the French and Spanish either!

I remember once some English people staying in Torremolnos complaining that their hotel was full of Spaniards! 

And don't get me going about my French daughter in law!


----------



## Guest

Backpedaling now, meant it in a jokey way.
Going by what I experienced in Japan and Australia


----------



## Guest

Aargh please discard my post as un-thought out and ignorant. I weren't trying to upset or cause problems for anyone.
Meant it in a lighthearted way and its my appalling attempt at humour
*white flag*


----------



## KittenKong

If there's any decency left, may I hope this will be the equivalent of Brown's "Bigoted woman" comment that cost him the 2010 GE.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ing-boris-johnson-worst-campaign-error-so-far


----------



## Elles

AsahiGo said:


> Aargh please discard my post as un-thought out and ignorant. I weren't trying to upset or cause problems for anyone.
> Meant it in a lighthearted way and its my appalling attempt at humour
> *white flag*


well I thought it was funny and replied in the same way.


----------



## Guest

@Elles It was meant to be, I didn't consider how it may come across online :Bag I never intend to unintentionally offend anyone...


----------



## Elles

It came across lighthearted and funny. If someone took offence they’re probably French. Or American. Americans have no sense of humour too. 

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> It came across lighthearted and funny. If someone took offence they're probably French. Or American. Americans have no sense of humour too.
> 
> :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

AsahiGo said:


> @Elles It was meant to be, I didn't consider how it may come across online :Bag I never intend to unintentionally offend anyone...


You don't have to apologise. I wasn't offended. You'd have to liken me to Idi Amin to do that! :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> It came across lighthearted and funny. If someone took offence they're probably French. Or American. Americans have no sense of humour too.
> 
> :Hilarious


My sil and neice are Americans, what is your problem?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Yesterday monkey chants at a match in little England.


What is your point? Nothing at all to do with BJ (or JC for that matter). And nothing to do with the election. Just what some football fans are like . . . and it is being ''dealt with''.
_ Greater Manchester police said on Sunday morning that a 41-year-old man had been arrested on suspicion of a racially aggravated public order offence and remains in custody for questioning._
And nothing at all to do with ''Little England'' either - it happens at football matches in other countries (if you can believe it, shock, horror).

Ceferin became president in September 2016 having been the president of Slovenia's football association for the previous five years. Asked by the Mirror if he had underestimated how badly _European football was blighted by racism,_ the one-time lawyer said: "Yes, I did. The situation in Europe is more and more tense. You can feel it."


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> They could both be called expats, which I agree has better connotations than immigrant, which is what for me the post was implying. We're ni


I only realised after I'd posted that 'immigrant' was viewed as a derogatory term by some. To me it's just a word, a valid descriptor without such connotations. Been a bit of a shock to be honest.


----------



## Calvine

havoc said:


> I only realised after I'd posted that 'immigrant' was viewed as a derogatory term by some. To me it's just a word, a valid descriptor without such connotations. Been a bit of a shock to be honest.


 So what is the correct terminology? In some instances they are refugees, but not always. I have two German Jewish neighbours who were refugees in 1939 and they always describe themselves as immigrants (as they are no longer refugees). It is very difficult - you cannot say someone is ''coloured'' but you can describe someone as ''black'' or a ''person of colour'' (I think!) which I also find rather strange. Whatever you say these days is subject to so much scrutiny and critical analysis that you tend to keep quiet.


----------



## Elles

I think that it’s generally promoted that if you’re an expat the implication is that you have money and support yourself, if you’re an immigrant, or migrant you might not. You could be an economic migrant. You could even be an illegal immigrant. No one says illegal expat. If media started calling immigrants expats, I wonder if it would have an effect. Language eh.

Immigrant is still an accepted term though I think. I’m just saying how I see it and how I think it’s gone over the past few decades. I’m not stating fact, or that I think badly of immigrants and it is just imho. What do you think?


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> No one says illegal expat


They don't but then the vast majority of immigrants are not illegal either. I'm not sure where the term 'economic migrant' fits in all this too. People around the world move elsewhere because they intend to build a better life than they could in the country of their birth. Brits don't relocate to Australia etc. because they think life will be worse.


----------



## havoc

Calvine said:


> It is very difficult - you cannot say someone is ''coloured'' but you can describe someone as ''black'' or a ''person of colour'' (I think!) which I also find rather strange


The difference currently is that such terminology is deemed unacceptable by a defined group it's about or directed at and the word immigrant is apparently being used as a derogatory term directed at anyone and everyone. It's the overarching nature of the connotation I find so shocking.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> The Australians call us Poms don't they? Sometimes the media talk as though Brits are really terrible and everyone else is super kind and PC. Silly isn't it?


They call us Whinging Poms. They might have a point . The French used to call us Rosbif ( Roast Beef )


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> They don't but then the vast majority of immigrants are not illegal either. I'm not sure where the term 'economic migrant' fits in all this too. People around the world move elsewhere because they intend to build a better life than they could in the country of their birth. Brits don't relocate to Australia etc. because they think life will be worse.


Of course the vast majority aren't. It's language. Most derogatory terms didn't start out that way. At the moment immigrant is being used as an insult in some context, in the US as well as here. Economic migrant was used as a term to separate people fleeing from war and oppression (refugees) and people wanting a better paid job than they could get at home. Some believe the country is full and are more sympathetic to refugees, even if they are trying to enter Europe and Britain illegally, than they are to legal migrants relocating for work.

I was musing over how expat isn't viewed as an insult here, even though it actually describes the same people. Odd isn't it.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yesterday monkey chants at a match in little England.


What planet are you on. Racism has been rife in Football for years . Thinking back to the 70/80ss you couldnt take your children to the big teams games. Chelsea fans were dreadful and feared.


----------



## havoc

It is just language and some terms which were once commonplace are now recognised as insulting. I understand that. I’m pretty sure using the word immigrant as some sort of insult will never not be acceptable however bad it gets as a hate term. To do so would be to deny hard right wing politicians the ability to use the word immigration to incite fear and hatred.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris Johnsons tweets are all about Brexit. As i said before it was wrong to make the election about Brexit.

( Just to annoy KK )


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> They call us Whinging Poms. They might have a point . The French used to call us Rosbif ( Roast Beef )


The French have never forgiven us for defeating them at the Battle of Agincourt


----------



## Gemmaa

AsahiGo said:


> Aargh please discard my post as un-thought out and ignorant. I weren't trying to upset or cause problems for anyone.
> Meant it in a lighthearted way and its my appalling attempt at humour
> *white flag*


Ah don't worry...my sister doesn't talk to me anymore, largely because I sent her a funny Christmas card, that she took as a personal attack :Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

I was just browsing through the various manifesto pledges.

Reading what Labour want to change in work and benefits had me wondering how many small businesses (and possibly not so small) they want to put out of business....


----------



## Guest

Gemmaa said:


> Ah don't worry...my sister doesn't talk to me anymore, largely because I sent her a funny Christmas card, that she took as a personal attack :Hilarious


Oh dear!


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Five ways to convince yourself you're an expat rather than an immigrant*
10th December 2019








*ARE YOU a Brit living abroad but apoplectic with rage about foreigners living in the UK? Here's how to convince yourself there's a difference.*

*British people are innately wonderful*

Immigrants are lazy scrounging bastards who make the UK worse, whereas Brits boozing on the Costa del Sol improve Spain simply by their innate values of justice and fair play. Eighty ex-Empire nations will disagree, but they're just bitter.

*You don't mix with the locals*

As expats you're proud of your thriving community, drinking at the Only Fools and Horses bar and buying Marmite from Jean's English shop. Immigrants, meanwhile, suspiciously keep to themselves, talking their own language and importing their unpleasant foods. The two couldn't be more different.

*Immigrants just want all the good stuff*

Immigrants only come to Britain to take advantage of Britain by going to our universities and working in our hospitals. Expats moved to France for big cheap farmhouses, sunshine and cheap wine, which is only fair because they've worked hard and deserve to enjoy their retirement.

*You don't expect everything for free*

Unlike immigrants, who only come to the UK to get free houses on luxurious British council estates, expats pay taxes and don't expect anything for free. Apart from healthcare, which given that many are on their third heart attack can be substantial, but that's different in principle.

*You're not a bloody foreigner*

The ultimate trick of being an expat rather than an immigrant is to perform a special type of cognitive dissonance that stops your brain from recognising that anywhere outside of the UK you are a foreigner. Even though it doesn't make sense you must always remember: you can never be a foreigner because you're British.


----------



## Elles

That was today? How funny. Maybe the Daily Mash are spying on us. 

You don’t work for them do you... :Bag


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> That was today? How funny. Maybe the Daily Mash are spying on us.
> 
> You don't work for them do you... :Bag


It appeared in my inbox about three quarters of an hour ago. And I had absolutely nothing to do with it ...... promise!


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> The French have never forgiven us for defeating them at the Battle of Agincourt


Ah, mea culpa on fanning the flames of that one. I'm a toxophilist and have a beloved t-shirt with the battles listed like tour dates


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> You don't work for them do you..


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious I understand she's a ghost writer for them.


----------



## havoc

MilleD said:


> Reading what Labour want to change in work and benefits had me wondering how many small businesses (and possibly not so small) they want to put out of business....


Honestly, I've never known a single improvement to working conditions where that hasn't been the objection. The argument that it will cost small business has been used to fight against everything including making the workplace safe and paying women equal pay for equal work.


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> Honestly, I've never known a single improvement to working conditions where that hasn't been the objection. The argument that it will cost small business has been used to fight against everything including making the workplace safe and paying women equal pay for equal work.


32 hour working week with no loss of pay has got nothing to do with safety or equality.


----------



## havoc

MilleD said:


> 32 hour working week with no loss of pay has got nothing to do with safety or equality.


Agreed. Twelve hour days with no breaks and no paid holidays were once the norm and employers railed against changes then though it would be considered inhumane now. Most employed people I know don't put in anywhere near 32 productive hours.


----------



## Elles

Eh? They want to increase pay, increase company tax, reduce working hours, increase holiday pay. Some small businesses are bound to feel it, but Labour are saying only the top rich will pay extra. It's not true. They should be honest about it. Of course we haven't been told how free broadband for all will affect small internet providers either. They're the first against the wall come the revolution?


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Eh? They want to increase pay, increase company tax, reduce working hours, increase holiday pay. Some small businesses are bound to feel it, but Labour are saying only the top rich will pay extra. It's not true. They should be honest about it. Of course we haven't been told how free broadband for all will affect small internet providers either. They're the first against the wall come the revolution?


Every single person will pay when you factor in the price rises that will have to happen to pay for it all.

That increase in minimum wage won't go very far if inflation goes through the roof.


----------



## KittenKong

Caught out lying again. Tory media sinking to new lows by now saying the Mirror front page yesterday was faked.

A statement from the NHS trust in question.

https://www.leedsth.nhs.uk/about-us...-Zsw0sW9YOb_UvxKqwv1bVocJdlXocG9h2QqYFOVlfSD4


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Caught out lying again. Tory media sinking to new lows by now saying the Mirror front page yesterday was faked.
> 
> A statement from the NHS trust in question.
> 
> https://www.leedsth.nhs.uk/about-us...-Zsw0sW9YOb_UvxKqwv1bVocJdlXocG9h2QqYFOVlfSD4


Such an easy lie to disprove. It was either a very stupid Tory or a very clever Labour supporter spreading it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Such an easy lie to disprove. It was either a very stupid Tory or a very clever Labour supporter spreading it.


I'm confused!

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy

Tue 10 Dec 2019 15.21 GMTFirst published on Tue 10 Dec 2019 11.30 GMT

*'I was hacked,' says woman whose account claimed hospital boy photo was staged*

*A medical secretary has claimed her Facebook account was hacked after it was used to post false information claiming that a photograph of an ill boy on the floor at Leeds General Infirmary was staged for political purposes.

:BookwormThe woman denied posting the allegation that four-year-old Jack Willment-Barr's mother placed him on the floor specifically to take the picture* *which became symbolic of the NHS's troubles after it appeared on the front page of Monday's Daily Mirror.*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I'm confused!
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy
> 
> *'I was hacked,' says woman whose account claimed hospital boy photo was staged*
> 
> *A medical secretary has claimed her Facebook account was hacked after it was used to post false information claiming that a photograph of an ill boy on the floor at Leeds General Infirmary was staged for political purposes.
> 
> :BookwormThe woman denied posting the allegation that four-year-old Jack Willment-Barr's mother placed him on the floor specifically to take the picture* *which became symbolic of the NHS's troubles after it appeared on the front page of Monday's Daily Mirror.*


Saw this earlier today, might help 

https://fullfact.org/electionlive/2019/dec/10/LGI-photo-boy-facts/ (Genuine fact checker, not a Tory rebrand  )

There have also been a lot of similar but slightly different posts doing the rounds on Twitter (both the one in the article, and at least one other in various flavours of "I'm a former paediatric A&E and PICU nurse and that child has a style of O2 mask in front of him that requires 6-8l/min to inflate like that. If a child needed that amount of O2 they'd be in resus for proper monitoring. He'd also have a cannula and be propped head up"). It's too nuanced to be an automated botnet, with subtle changes and manipluations of the message text in order to avoid automated defences, so I'm guessing a concerted effort using compromised accouns by a targetted disinformation group, personally (i.e. actual humans running the show).

Anyway, both the hospital and Matt Hancock have said the situation was not staged and apologised, so I'll go by what they are saying. Sadly, a lot of people will just take the disinformation at face value...

Oh, and the other claim doing the rounds, that someone punched one of Hancock's aides outside the hospital, is also false - I've seen the video footage and the protestor is waving their arm around and the aide manages to walk into it from behind whilst the protestor is looking in completely the opposite direction. Rather amusingly, the protestor is a cyclist wheeling his bike whilst wearing a hi-vis jacket with flashing lights on his backpack, and the aide still manages to hit him! :Hilarious


----------



## mrs phas

thanks BJ
thats my favourite christmas movie completely ruined :Vomit:Vomit:Vomit


----------



## kimthecat

labour MP John Ashworth secretly taped making negative comments about Corbyn. he later said he was joking . It was on the news , he was either serious or does deadpan extremely well.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ret-recording-saying-voters-stand-Corbyn.html

Mr Ashworth, Labour's candidate for Leicester South, is heard saying in the phone call that the civil service machine would 'pretty quickly move to safeguard security' if Mr Corbyn entered Number 10.

He is heard saying in the recording leaked to the Guido Fawkes website: 'Outside of the city seats, if you are in small-town Midlands and North, it's abysmal out there.

'They don't like Johnson but they can't stand Corbyn and they think Labour's blocked Brexit.

Some joke !


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> thanks BJ
> thats my favourite christmas movie completely ruined :Vomit:Vomit:Vomit


I thought it funny especially as the woman lives in a posh mews. Why wouldnt she vote Tory .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Caught out lying again. Tory media sinking to new lows by now saying the Mirror front page yesterday was faked.
> 
> A statement from the NHS trust in question.
> 
> https://www.leedsth.nhs.uk/about-us...-Zsw0sW9YOb_UvxKqwv1bVocJdlXocG9h2QqYFOVlfSD4


The Guardians take on it.
https://a.msn.com/r/2/BBY1BMS?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

A medic
"I was hacked. I am not a nurse and I certainly don't know anyone in Leeds," said the woman, whose name the Guardian is withholding because she says she has received death threats. "I've had to delete everything as I have had death threats to myself and my children."

The original viral post on the medical secretary's Facebook account said "I am a nurse myself" and cited a "good friend of mine" at Leeds General.

It claimed the boy in the photo "was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and then uploaded it to media outlets". The post dismissed the pictures of the ill boy as "another Momentum propaganda story", despite the fact the hospital had already apologised for his treatment.
al secretary has claimed her Facebook account was hacked after it was used to post false information claiming that a photograph of an ill boy on the floor at Leeds General Infirmary was staged for political purposes.

The woman denied posting the allegation that four-year-old Jack Willment-Barr's mother placed him on the floor specifically to take the picture which became symbolic of the NHS's troubles after it appeared on the front page of Monday's Daily Mirror.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:

The many identical, false tweets about the 4-year old boy said that the Mum laid him on the floor, took his photo and then got him back up and put him on the trolley. Note that - “on the TROLLEY”. Not “into his bed”. But on the trolley!!! So even the ruddy Tory bots know that there aren’t enough hospital beds!!!!!


----------



## Elles

The latest is that the tweet came from the account of a GP’s wife, who says her account was hacked. The account has been deleted. Rumour has it that her son has Matt Hancock as a Facebook “friend” and some iffy far right interests.

So the stupid Tory who tweeted that the young boy on the hospital floor was a set-up will turn out to be the son of a GP and his wife, who used mum’s account to do it. 

Allegedly.


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn caught out lying. he was asked if he watched the Queens speech and he said yes , its on in the morning. When he was told it was in the afternoon , he said watch it at a different time to other people . :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn caught out lying. he was asked if he watched the Queens speech and he said yes , its on in the morning. When he was told it was in the afternoon , he said watch it at a different time to other people . :Hilarious


BBC I player at anytime, so he could have watched it on Boxing Day morning?

I can't believe this post quite frankly. More important things at stake. How about Johnson lying about no customs checks between NI and the rest of the UK?


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> Honestly, I've never known a single improvement to working conditions where that hasn't been the objection. The argument that it will cost small business has been used to fight against everything including making the workplace safe and paying women equal pay for equal work.


The far right of the Tory party have vouched for no fault dismissals and will probably support firms who choose to stop paid leave and maternity pay. No EU minimum standards to comply with.

Pity the poor woman for falling pregnant, who'll probably be sacked for this anyway.

And, if your new boss doesn't like you, he or she can sack you and nothing could be done about it....


----------



## Jesthar

And the Leeds boy-on-floor careens on...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...loor-jack-williment-phone-photo-a9239041.html

A journalist asked BoJo about the photo, BoJo said he hadn't seen it. Journalist attempts to show him the photo on his phone. BoJo makes no attempt to look at it, and dodges direct questions in favour of waffling on about this is why they need to be able to 'get on' with things which means they need a non-deadlocked Parliament (by which I assume he means 'Not having a majority means I don't get my way all the time and have to listen to non-Torys sometimes - vote Conservative!  ). Journalist won't be diverted, so BoJo takes the journalists phone without looking at it, says he'll study it later and puts the phone in his pocket whilst going back to his previous topics! Journalist challenges him over that, BoJo retrieves the phone, gives it a couple of very brief glances, says it's a 'terrible, terrible photo' - then goes straight back to electioneering again!

Surely it shouldn't be too much to expect a bit of dignified (if not necessarily sincere) sympathy for thirty seconds... It'd have certainly been much better publicity!


----------



## KittenKong

Sounds about right....


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> And, if your new boss doesn't like you, he or she can sack you and nothing could be done about it....


That's already the case. Barring discrimination you have little or no protection against dismissal for the first two years with an employer. It used to be a one year qualifying time to be able to claim unfair dismissal but the Tories doubled it.
I have no problem at all with there being a qualifying period, it would be ridiculous not to have one. It is however a perfect example of how changes can be made, rights eroded in increments. No one step is considered too far until it's too late.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> That's already the case. Barring discrimination you have little or no protection against dismissal for the first two years with an employer. It used to be a one year qualifying time to be able to claim unfair dismissal but the Tories doubled it.
> I have no problem at all with there being a qualifying period, it would be ridiculous not to have one. It is however a perfect example of how changes can be made, rights eroded in increments. No one step is considered too far until it's too late.


Yes, I remember when they did that. They've been working towards this ever since and Brexit will enable them to reduce rights further

What also concerns me are incidents of sexual harassment, where the victim would be unable to lodge a complaint on his/her manager who's doing the harassment.

Would they have to suffer in silence, or face dismissal through trying to lodge a complaint and nothing could be done about it? With the two year rule it's probably happening to people already.

Really are returning to the dark ages


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Delightful people these Tories aren't they?








https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...te-islamophobia-disabled-people-a9241666.html


----------



## Dave S

KittenKong

Would it be possible when you post your copied and pasted quotes you could post them as thumbnails then we lesser mortals have the opportunity of opening them or not.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> BBC I player at anytime, so he could have watched it on Boxing Day morning?
> 
> I can't believe this post quite frankly. More important things at stake. How about Johnson lying about no customs checks between NI and the rest of the UK?
> 
> View attachment 425079


TBH I cant believe most of your posts. If you think that coming onto this forum and rattling off anything about Boris or whoever is going to change anyone's mind you are deluded.
BTW I have made it clear that I dont like Boris nor do I like Corbyn.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dave S said:


> KittenKong
> 
> Would it be possible when you post your copied and pasted quotes you could post them as thumbnails then we lesser mortals have the opportunity of opening them or not.


I agree, these large posts hurt my eyes, especially black ones with the white writing.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I agree, these large posts hurt my eyes, especially black ones with the white writing.


I just scroll past when I see the big print.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I just scroll past when I see the big print.


I do, but sometimes they are is so much to the post and so much black and white going past my eyes it still affects them.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Delightful people these Tories aren't they?
> View attachment 425120
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...te-islamophobia-disabled-people-a9241666.html


The article written about people with learning disabilities being given special status over pay was a heartfelt plea by the parent of a Down's syndrome girl who is part of a support group asking for just this. Unfortunately Tory hating media has latched onto it. If Caroline Lucas was supporting them instead, the Guardian would be all over it like a rash. Instead they use it to beat a sympathetic female MP, because she's Tory. She begged listeners to please read the article, which wasn't written by her, which they clearly haven't.

The article is written by Rosa Monckton a campaigner for young adults with learning disabilities.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/the-minimum-wage-denies-my-daughter-the-dignity-of-a-paid-job/


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong If Boris wins , will you be going on and on about people who didnt vote Labour in the Election saying its their fault?


----------



## Elles

The Muslim Brotherhood is controversial and I’m sure members have some extremist ideology. Ex members say so. I don’t know enough about it and am likely to be biased, as I dislike all religion and having recently been educating myself on Islam and the Quran, what I see I don’t like. We aren’t allowed to talk about it though.


----------



## kimthecat

More photos of Dylan the dog being used on the campaign trail.  He always looks miserable and unhappy in the photos. Poor dog.
This is the latest one.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> BTW I have made it clear that I dont like Boris nor do I like Corbyn.


Mum and Dad won't vote for any of candidates to be the next PM of the United Kingdom. If I was still a British Citizen and lived in the United Kingdom I would not have voted either. How can any of them be trusted as they all lie and u-turn on what they say and make false promises?


----------



## Elles

I don’t think Dilyn likes being picked up. In pics where he’s trotting along he looks really happy, but totally miserable when people are holding him. Maybe they should stop allowing all and sundry to pick him up and cuddle him and just take him out like a real dog.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I just scroll past when I see the big print.


 Funny you should say that . . . !


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Mum and Dad won't vote for any of candidates to be the next PM of the United Kingdom. If I was still a British Citizen and lived in the United Kingdom I would not have voted either. How can any of them be trusted as they all lie and u-turn on what they say and make false promises?


Agree with them . . . I'm not voting, for the first time I can remember.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> Agree with them . . . I'm not voting, for the first time I can remember.


You know what, I don't think I can be bothered either.

The tory candidate who lied about where she lived when she stood in Bristol sounds like a waste of air, but she will probably win.

I can't in all good conscience vote for Corbyn, or that hideous Lib Dem woman. And voting Green will just be a waste of time.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 425095


I seem to recall reading that JC managed two grade E's at A-level; not sure what the subjects were. (I stand to be corrected.)


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*
*What's your pathetic excuse for voting for Boris Johnson?*
10th December 2019








*DESPITE widespread agreement that he's a lying ****, millions of people still intend to vote for Boris Johnson. What's your depressing justification?*

*Immigrants*

It's not entirely clear how immigrants are harming the average Brit. But that's what it's about, isn't it? As Brexiters like to say, 'We're full'. Yes we are. Of disingenuous kn*bheads pretending it's not about immigrants.

*The NHS*

If you believe Boris Johnson on the NHS you may as well believe in anything, eg. a six-foot rabbit is coming to buy you a house and he'll look after the kids with a delicious but healthy meal on the table every day at 6pm. Thanks, imaginary giant bunny! You've got my vote!

*Boris is fun*

The evil clown Pennywise from _It_ is fun. He's spooky, deranged and says moderately amusing things. However you probably wouldn't want Pennywise to run the country. Unless the other option was Jeremy Corbyn.

*Tories are good at the economy*

If you believe this: f**k off. Without an in-depth discussion of Keynesian economic orthodoxy, which no one wants in the morning, every indicator suggests Tories are not very good on economics. It's like saying murderers are great at managing end-of-life care.

*Labour are rubbish*

Jeremy Corbyn's failure to connect with the electorate could be debated, or indeed go on, for about 200 years. Is he worse than Boris? No.

*Freedom of speech on campus and golliwogs and whatever*

If your only points of reference are propaganda from the _Sun_ and _Telegraph_ then you are totally right to vote for this idiot, and cannot be challenged.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong If Boris wins , will you be going on and on about people who didnt vote Labour in the Election saying its their fault?


Actually, I would be more annoyed with Labour and the Lib Dems for competing with each other rather than working together.

Both have been as bad as each other in this respect. They should have stood down candidates in areas they couldn't have possibility won in order to avoid splitting the opposition vote.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> TBH I cant believe most of your posts. If you think that coming onto this forum and rattling off anything about Boris or whoever is going to change anyone's mind you are deluded.
> BTW I have made it clear that I dont like Boris nor do I like Corbyn.


No, I'm not Rupert Murdoch. I want people to make up their own minds, not have Mr Murdoch and co make it up for them.

People need to see what the tabloids and most other media don't want you to see.

Whether people choose to change their minds or not is entirely upto them.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> The evil clown Pennywise from _It_ is fun. He's spooky, deranged and says moderately amusing things. However you probably wouldn't want Pennywise to run the country. Unless the other option was Jeremy Corbyn.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious LMAO!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> No, I'm not Rupert Murdoch. I want people to make up their own minds, not have Mr Murdoch and co make it up for him.
> 
> People need to see what the tabloids and other media don't want you to see.


Oh I see! So you've taken it upon yourself to provide us with the propaganda you think we aught to see!.

Is that because you believe that anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do is too stupid to find out for themselves?

And what makes you think anyone who doesn't agree with you only reads Murdoch publications?


----------



## Elles

My brother-in-law is a LibDem councillor, luckily we don’t have a LibDem candidate in this area. :Nailbiting


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> No, I'm not Rupert Murdoch. I want people to make up their own minds, not have Mr Murdoch and co make it up for them.
> 
> *People need to see what the tabloids and most other media don't want you to see.*
> 
> Whether people choose to change their minds or not is entirely upto them.


I never believe anything I read in the papers, they have done enough damage over the years.


----------



## KittenKong

Johnson in a milk round this morning with a clearly staged delivery to a house on BBC news.

Anyone else remember the news and press reports that the Common Market were going to do away with, "Our milkman" in the late'70s or early '80s?

People have been drip fed this rubbish for years.


----------



## Elles

Obviously it’s staged. Boris Johnson isn’t a milkman lol. I wonder if they’ll make strawberry milkshakes out of it. :Snaphappy


----------



## havoc

Still don't know where I'll place my X tomorrow (know where I won't) but I will be there as the polls open because I have to catch an early train up to town.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Johnson in a milk round this morning with a clearly staged delivery to a house on BBC news.
> 
> Anyone else remember the news and press reports that the Common Market were going to do away with, "Our milkman" in the late'70s or early '80s?
> 
> People have been drip fed this rubbish for years.


They've virtually killed our dairy industry while boosting it in other countries


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> They've virtually killed our dairy industry while boosting it in other countries


But doorstep deliveries didn't end though did they. This was the spile they were putting out.

I just hope when trade moves from Europe to the US it'll still be fresh by the time it reaches the UK.

And a US "Pinta" is 16 fl oz (454ml), not "our" 20 (568ml).


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> They've virtually killed our dairy industry while boosting it in other countries


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36367246


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> I never believe anything I read in the papers, they have done enough damage over the years.


Sadly, many do though. I've seen Sun readers for example lapping up everything they print as gospel.

When I hear readers I know spout on about the "evil" EU and Corbyn, I ask them did they believe what their paper said about the Hillsborough victims 30 years ago.

They accept I raised a good point, then the next day they're knee deep back in their beloved paper, lapping up everything they print....


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Dave S

KK
Thank you for your valued input in showing us what the media did not want us to see.

I do think though that you have been a bit over the top on your postings, so much so that to a greater extent people just scroll past them, just like I do.
Unfortunately most of your postings also seem to denigrate Conservatives whilst ignoring the fact that JC and his party could also be disastrous for the country. 
We appreciate that you, as well as many people on this thread hold certain political beliefs but most of us do not seek to impose that on others. Instead we have a fair and reasoned discussion as we are capable of having our own opinion and making up our own minds who to vote for, what is fake news, what paper to read etc.

You will appreciate that BJ and the milk delivery would have to be staged, just as most others "events" are staged and planned well in advance, the same goes for other parties and candidates. This ensures all the players are in the right place at the right time. 

The fact about getting rid of the milkman was also due to us being told we would have to accept milk from Europe which was argued at the time that it is "watered down" - indeed it is and it is not as nice as the pre-Europe milk delivered to our doorsteps. But you cannot change history and it was accepted at that time. Take a visit to a local raw milk farm seller and try what we gave up all those years ago. There is a jersey herd near here and the milk is wonderful.

After the election results are known on Friday and Conservatives possibly have a working majority in Parliament I do hope that will be an end to all the long and biased postings and we can focus on moving this thread forward in a more positive manner.

Before you fire off your response take a deep breath and realise that I, like many other people do not like BJ but he could be the better alternative in this instance, after all, you vote for the party not the man and in his own bumbling stupid way he is going to complete what was democratically voted for - Brexit, not go back to the drawing board and restart negotiations or reverse the process completely. Yes I know there are other policies to take into consideration from their manifesto but how many times have these been duly ignored after any party has been elected.

I appreciate this post may not be to your liking as it contrasts with your beliefs but think about it this way - it is a long post that I have typed, I have not copied an article from the internet or paper web site and pasted it here for other readers to view or scroll past, and I have left the text the standard size for the forum. I have taken time and tried to make this post positive although I would also expect fair criticism as that is what a discussion is all about.

I hope that some, if not all your expectations are fulfilled tomorrow.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Oh I see! So you've taken it upon yourself to provide us with the propaganda you think we aught to see!.
> 
> Is that because you believe that anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do is too stupid to find out for themselves?
> 
> And what makes you think anyone who doesn't agree with you only reads Murdoch publications?


You took the words right out of my mouth!


----------



## Dave S

kimthecat said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth!


Brilliant song from Meatloaf, on his Bat out of Hell album. love his music. :Joyful:Joyful


----------



## kimthecat

Dave S said:


> Brilliant song from Meatloaf, love his music. :Joyful:Joyful


:Hilarious yeah! "I'd do anything but I won't do that" ! vote for corbyn or boris that is . :Yuck


----------



## Elles

I’m getting bombarded with anti Tory and pro labour propaganda on my YouTube and Facebook. Haven’t seen anything from any of the other parties.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Never in my times I saw such a unsavory selection.... 
Farage, Johnson, that horrible woman and a cantankerous old git...

Would probably have gone with the git....


----------



## Dave S

Which one is the old git?


----------



## MollySmith

Vote. Don’t be apathetic and hopeful that one party will fulfill every need one has, that’s hopelessly unrealistic, sadly, but read the manifestos and make a choice and exercise your right to vote. Vote.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> ve seen Sun readers for example lapping up everything they print as gospel.


I'm sure I recall you quoting seriously and copiously from the Sun a while back - or maybe that was Goblin?


----------



## KittenKong

Dave S said:


> After the election results are known on Friday and Conservatives possibly have a working majority in Parliament I do hope that will be an end to all the long and biased postings and we can focus on moving this thread forward in a more positive manner.


Which is a translation of, "Bojo will get Brexit done so "we" can move on to other things".

You've got to be joking if you think I'm going to unite behind that vile creature.

What's more insulting from your post is your desire for me to get behind such a hate figure who has offended many who are friends of mine, and myself for claiming to speak for me.

The DUP have seen the light. I look forward to the time the rest of England realise they were juped.

If you don't like my posts, utilise the Ignore button.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> No, I'm not Rupert Murdoch. I want people to make up their own minds, not have Mr Murdoch and co make it up for them.
> 
> People need to see what the tabloids and most other media don't want you to see.
> 
> Whether people choose to change their minds or not is entirely upto them.


I think alot of people have already made their minds up without the help of the press who they are voting for or not voting at all.


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong I noticed you do post alot about the Sun newspaper which I guess you secretly enjoy reading as you seem to be the only person on here quoting articles in it alot. Not having ago just an observation.


----------



## Guest

I wonder how many people will abstain from voting tomorrow because they feel ill informed about who to vote for; trust none of the available candidates to become PM; don't appreciate being lied to or just find the candidates untrustworthy making false promises? That would be an interesting nationwide poll in the United Kingdom.


----------



## cheekyscrip

G





















Forgive me for I spammed...


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> @KittenKong I noticed you do post alot about the Sun newspaper which I guess you secretly enjoy reading as you seem to be the only person on here quoting articles in it alot. Not having ago just an observation.


The Daily Mirror is for Labour and Corbyn . I dont seem to see many quotes from them on this thread.
If you include all newspapers , perhaps the influence balances out.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 425175
> G
> View attachment 425174
> View attachment 425173
> View attachment 425172
> Forgive me for I spammed...


Now Im too scared to look in my fridge. What if he's in there


----------



## rona

I think Boris has been advised by the same people as Theresa. They seem to have learnt nothing from that last humiliation


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> What if he's in there


If he is, you can kiss your food goodbye: the great lump will have scoffed the lot.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Now Im too scared to look in my fridge. What if he's in there


Then you get the chance to do us all a favour by slamming the door and wedging it shut for a couple of weeks...


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> The Daily Mirror is for Labour and Corbyn . I dont seem to see many quotes from them on this thread.
> If you include all newspapers , perhaps the influence balances out.


I would be accused of propaganda if I had done!

Besides, for the record, I am not a Labour party supporter nor activist. I'm not tribal in that way.

It might surprise you, but I have challenged tribal posts from both the Lib Dems and Labour who argue, "Corbyn is a Brexiter" and "the Lib Dems are yellow Tories". Whether true or not, this is not the right time to cause such division, seeing how united the extreme right are.


----------



## Dave S

KittenKong said:


> Which is a translation of, "Bojo will get Brexit done so "we" can move on to other things".
> 
> You've got to be joking if you think I'm going to unite behind that vile creature.
> 
> What's more insulting from your post is your desire for me to get behind such a hate figure who has offended many who are friends of mine, and myself for claiming to speak for me.
> 
> The DUP have seen the light. I look forward to the time the rest of England realise they were juped.
> 
> If you don't like my posts, utilise the Ignore button.


Obviously I do not expect you to agree with me in any part what so ever but I will clarify a couple of things.

The "we" is us as a nation, all of us make up the United Kingdom so you cannot exclude yourself from it as you are bound by the same laws and rules as everyone else.
If therefore BJ and his party win a majority then we will be governed the conservative way which will be against the wishes of many but will be law, if JC and labour win then we go that way - it's embroiled in history. If it is a hung Parliament then we will probably Brexit after a second referendum. 
Your post prior to editing said "fascist" not hate figure, and you have also referred to him as a vile creature, either could also be said about JC, indeed it is good that you edited out your previous post which could also be applicable to JC. as it was a bit more insulting referring to him as a disgusting fascist.

You stated in your deleted post that "I fight for what I believe to be right" - in that case stop being a keyboard warrior and stand as a local MP for your preferred party.

No, I do not need to use the ignore button, I am mature enough to decide to look at postings if I wish and not pretend they do not exist. What I, and many others object to is your consistent copy and pasting of news items either real or fake rather than a discussion based on your own rational opinions without the need to belittle other contributors who do not share your views.


----------



## Dave S

Deleted as posted twice.


----------



## KittenKong

"Who needs experts", he said.
Seems he doesn't need people who can spell either.

Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Besides, for the record, I am not a Labour party supporter nor activist. I'm not tribal in that way.


What you said above is interesting considering on another thread you said in the final sentence you was a traditional Labour Supporter. Here is the post:-


----------



## havoc

One of the things I’ve liked about this forum over the 10+ years I’ve been a part of it has been the acceptance of all views and all means by which members choose to communicate. More recently, and on this thread in particular, I’m getting a real sense of intolerance bordering on bullying. I see little difference between posting visual images and lengthy, patronising posts. I manage to scroll past both whether I agree or disagree with the content. I don’t have to like it but I should respect anyone’s right to include it.


----------



## Dave S

KittenKong said:


> "Who needs experts", he said.
> Seems he doesn't need people who can spell either.
> 
> Hilarious:Hilarious
> View attachment 425187


I hate to disagree with you but it is in actual fact correct - if you google the word STONG it says "

_*stong*_
_*A combination of the words "stun" and "dong," it literally means stunning penis but in practice is more often used in place of the word strong. When used in place of strong, *__*stong*__* either implies an association with or jokingly refers to a stunning penis or implies *__*male dominance*__* in general. *__*Stong*__* is a form of *__*sexual innuendo*__* and can be used as a noun or adjective.
adjective use: "I have a stong *__*pimp hand*__*" implies *__*male dominance*__* whereas the phrase "I have a strong pimp hand" only implies superiority.

literal use: "He wants to show you all his stong."

sexual innuendo: "This statue looks stong" directing the listener to check out *__*the statue's*__* genitals*_.

LOL


----------



## KittenKong

Sorry, but this needs to be shared.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Then you get the chance to do us all a favour by slamming the door and wedging it shut for a couple of weeks...


 No thanks.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> One of the things I've liked about this forum over the 10+ years I've been a part of it has been the acceptance of all views and all means by which members choose to communicate. More recently, and on this thread in particular, I'm getting a real sense of intolerance bordering on bullying. I see little difference between posting visual images and lengthy, patronising posts. I manage to scroll past both whether I agree or disagree with the content. I don't have to like it but I should respect anyone's right to include it.


What I've witnessed over the past few years is the normalisation of scapegoating "migrants" by government etc. ministers from Theresa May to Stephen Yaxley-Lennon.

The press have been responsible for much of the hatred too with articles such as councils banning Christmas incase it upsets people of different faiths for example.

Johnson's recent attack on citizens from other EU countries, saying they have no right to call England their home was an extension of Theresa May's "Queue jumpers" comments. It's absolutely despicable, and gives the idea of what kind of "country" he wants which looks to be very unpleasant from these eyes.

All normalised and accepted by the media in recent times, accelerated further by the Brexit vote.

I remember in the '70s radio DJ John Peel introduced Reggae to a British audience. He received complaints from the bigoted for doing so, which made him more determined than ever to promote it.


----------



## kimthecat

@Calvine @Jesthar Trending on Twitter =Misquote a Movie with a Fridge'
My favourite.

'Of all the fridges in all the towns in all the world, he walks into mine.' #MisquoteAMovieWithAFridge

https://twitter.com/search?q=#MisquoteAMovieWithAFridge&src=trend_click&pt=1204896081273856008


----------



## KittenKong

Ah, didums.

"Boris Johnson is promising the country that he won't put a border in the Irish Sea, and that he'll have a new trade deal done by the end of next year. 
A new leaked document shows that he won't deliver on either."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...corbyn-labour-brexit-nhs-latest-a9241661.html


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> "Who needs experts", he said.
> Seems he doesn't need people who can spell either.
> 
> Hilarious:Hilarious
> View attachment 425187


Someone reminded me he was once Education Secretary:Hilarious

*Disclaimer: We all make mistakes and have committed howlers from time to time. However, I would have thought someone would have checked through the template for typos before submitting for press and distribution.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:

"A comment on German state television stated that if Boris Johnson gets elected today he will be the first elected far right wing populist Prime Minister in Western Europe. That’s how the rest of the EU sees him.
Unfortunately half of our countrymen and women do not share that assessment.
Don't let it happen."

.....as many people of Germany once thought Hitler was a nice man who would make their country great again".

German people are well qualified to know their history.

Spare the criticisms. I make no apologies for this warning from history.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> "A comment on German state television stated that if Boris Johnson gets elected today he will be the first elected far right wing populist Prime Minister in Western Europe. That's how the rest of the EU sees him.
> Unfortunately half of our countrymen and women do not share that assessment.
> Don't let it happen."
> 
> .....as many people of Germany once thought Hitler was a nice man who would make their country great again".
> 
> German people are well qualified to know their history.
> 
> Spare the criticisms. I make no apologies for this warning from history.


Another good example of you taking everything you read on Fakebook as gospel!

Sorry to disappoint both you, the FB poster and the German TV, but Hungary's Victor Orban has held that position for years!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I'm sure I recall you quoting seriously and copiously from the Sun a while back - or maybe that was Goblin?


If I remember rightly, a or maybe some of, KK's colleagues at work read the Sun, which is what IMO he bases his "many people" comments on!


----------



## Guest

Thank you @KittenKong for the morning round of fakebook. I think you need to factcheck what has been said/what you have posted in post 815.


----------



## Bisbow

Done my duty and put my cross in the correct box
And it was not for the terrorist loving apology for a man

Now I feel as though I can moan if the new government does things wrong in my opinion
If I had not voted I would have no right to moan


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> accelerated further by the Brexit vote.


Here we go again.


----------



## kimthecat

is this a joke ? I cant hear all she is saying but i know she says Republic of hackney ? 
She doesnt look well at all . I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with her.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204903413512888320


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> is this a joke ? I cant hear all she is saying but i know she says Republic of hackney ?
> She doesnt look well at all . I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with her.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204903413512888320


I actually saw it with the sound turned off (lip-reading if you like) and yes, that's what it looked like; definitely. Dear Lord.


----------



## Calvine

I will be interested to see what the turnout number is when this is over.


----------



## Elles

Yes, she says "Welcome to the People's Republic of Hackney." I expect it's meant as a joke.

How about this from Owen Jones. Very nice.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Yes, she says "Welcome to the People's Republic of Hackney." I expect it's meant as a joke.
> 
> How about this from Owen Jones. Very nice.
> 
> View attachment 425238


The film clip was short, I think its a joke but people twist things .

 You know what annoys me is all this #metoo about sexual harassment and then you have a young girl wearing that ! Talk about mixed messages. .


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> You know what annoys me is all this #metoo about sexual harassment and then you have a young girl wearing that ! Talk about mixed messages. .


It's not the brightest idea is it?


----------



## JANICE199

*Well i've done my bit and votes for Labour. *


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> is this a joke ? I cant hear all she is saying but i know she says Republic of hackney ?
> She doesnt look well at all . I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with her.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204903413512888320


She called the Labour supporters comrades as well .
Surely this would put anyone off voting Labour or is it now the communist party.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> is this a joke ? I cant hear all she is saying but i know she says Republic of hackney ?
> She doesnt look well at all . I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with her.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204903413512888320


Surely with reference like this "comrades" as an outsider one would think that Labour wants to align with Russia or become an annex of Russia or with this comment "peoples republic of Hackney" it might be China.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> Surely with reference like this "comrades" as an outsider one would think that Labour wants to align with Russia or become an annex of Russia or with this comment "peoples republic of Hackney" it might be China.


Could be Cuba. John Mcdonnell promises that the U.K. would be Cuba's staunchest ally when Labour are elected.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> She called the Labour supporters comrades as well .
> Surely this would put anyone off voting Labour or is it now the communist party.


*Over the last couple of weeks i have been comrade and much worse for giving Labour my vote. It doesn't bother me one bit what people call me. *


----------



## Guest

Very worrying even if it was a joke as the crowd applauded her.


----------



## Siskin

Defied the wet weather and voted and definitely NOT for the communist Jew hating party masquerading as labour.


----------



## Elles

Siskin said:


> Defied the wet weather and voted and definitely NOT for the communist Jew hating party masquerading as labour.


You forgot misogynist.


----------



## Jesthar

I know we don't do memes, but I just scared the cats laughing at this one! (and there _is_ a pet element...  )


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> You forgot misogynist.


Oh come on, THAT category is a straight two-horse race between BoJo and Farage...


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Oh come on, THAT category is a straight two-horse race between BoJo and Farage...


Nope. Jo Swinson and Jeremy Corbyn don't even know what a woman is, it's the one thing Boris and Farage don't lie about.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Nope. Jo Swinson and Jeremy Corbyn don't even know what a woman is, it's the one thing Boris and Farage don't lie about.


Just one small flaw in that logic; If Jo and Jeremy don't even know women exist, they can't be misogynistic...  

True that BoJo and Farage are misogynisic and proud, though! 

</pedant alert>


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> She doesnt look well at all . I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with her.


Who knows? Just saw this . . . very strange.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rs-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Who knows? Just saw this . . . very strange.
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rs-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html


It is strange. I dont like her but dont wish her harm. I hope she is ok. her hand trembling in the other video reminds me of Angela Merkel this summer . her hands were visably trembling but she said she was ok.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Had to go to the shops, so I bit the bullet went up the road to vote and got soaked.

Well what ever happens now and who ever wins, I've got the right to have moan if I don't like what they are doing.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> Who knows? Just saw this . . . very strange.
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rs-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html


 That makes me very sad. If her health is deteriorating, she needs protecting and to be resigned from public life.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Just one small flaw in that logic; If Jo and Jeremy don't even know women exist, they can't be misogynistic...
> 
> True that BoJo and Farage are misogynisic and proud, though!
> 
> </pedant alert>


They know women exist, they're in denial over what they are and are eroding women's rights. The Tories will join in, I have no doubt. It seems very popular at the moment and it's no joke.


----------



## kimthecat

Will Corbyn resign if Labour loses the Election?
Ive got that song in my head , Boulevard of Broken Dreams . i wonder who will be walking along that Boulevard tomorrow .

I walk this empty street
On the boulevard of broken dreams
Where the city sleeps
And I'm the only one, and I walk alone


----------



## JANICE199

Calvine said:


> Who knows? Just saw this . . . very strange.
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rs-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html


*If nothing else, it shows she's human. Perhaps she was just in a hurry? *


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> Will Corbyn resign if Labour loses the Election?
> Ive got that song in my head , Boulevard of Broken Dreams . i wonder who will be walking along that Boulevard tomorrow .
> 
> I walk this empty street
> On the boulevard of broken dreams
> Where the city sleeps
> And I'm the only one, and I walk alone


*I don't think he will resign, and i hope not. He is the only person i have ever voted for, and ever will unless someone else like him comes along.*


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Will Corbyn resign if Labour loses the Election?
> Ive got that song in my head , Boulevard of Broken Dreams . i wonder who will be walking along that Boulevard tomorrow .
> 
> I walk this empty street
> On the boulevard of broken dreams
> Where the city sleeps
> And I'm the only one, and I walk alone


Love me some Green Day.


----------



## rona

Was very busy when I went down. Thought turnout would be low but didn't look like it was.
I stood there for several seconds fighting the urge to deface the form, but in the end the imperative of getting out of the EU won.


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think he will resign, and i hope not. He is the only person i have ever voted for, and ever will unless someone else like him comes along.*


he's not popular with a lot of people. i think he could cost labour the election .


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> he's not popular with a lot of people. i think he could cost labour the election .


*I can understand why he is not popular for a couple of reasons. Firstly, in all of my 70 years i have never known such slander aimed at someone like he has had to put up with. Secondly people are believing the lies. BUT, i honestly believe he is so different, people are afraid to believe him. *


----------



## JANICE199

rona said:


> Was very busy when I went down. Thought turnout would be low but didn't look like it was.
> I stood there for several seconds fighting the urge to deface the form, but in the end the imperative of getting out of the EU won.


*Boris wants out of the EU, but wait until we see how much more it will cost us. Also how long it will take. Just my views.*


----------



## MilleD

JANICE199 said:


> *I can understand why he is not popular for a couple of reasons. Firstly, in all of my 70 years i have never known such slander aimed at someone like he has had to put up with. Secondly people are believing the lies. BUT, i honestly believe he is so different, people are afraid to believe him. *


Which bits are lies?


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> he's not popular with a lot of people.


The Jewish community who have backed labour in the past published an article about Corbyn not so long ago encouraging people inside and outside of the Jewish community not to vote for Labour as it is clear Corbyn is anti-semitic (See post 188 on page 10 of this thread). To date I do not recall Corbyn apologising to the Jewish community although recently (7 or 8 days ago) Johnson did apologise for his remark about his comment about Muslim women wearing burqas.


----------



## JANICE199

MilleD said:


> Which bits are lies?[/Q
> 
> *Oh i'm sure you already know, But if not, you can use the www *


----------



## Siskin

rona said:


> Was very busy when I went down. Thought turnout would be low but didn't look like it was.
> I stood there for several seconds fighting the urge to deface the form, but in the end the imperative of getting out of the EU won.


The lady at our polling station said it had been very busy.mthere was a lot of people tooing and froing in the short time we were there. And no people stood out in the rain asking who we voted for either, I wonder why


----------



## ForestWomble

I've voted (postal) and that was the hardest election choice I've ever had to make, even though I was close to not bothering I decided that, as the saying goes 'every vote matters', just one cross next to whoever you choose could be the one to make the difference between that party loosing, tieing or winning.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> They know women exist, they're in denial over what they are and are eroding women's rights. The Tories will join in, I have no doubt. It seems very popular at the moment *and it's no joke*.


Don't I know it - I'm a Union rep.  If we _didn't_ joke about such things, we'd go doolally though!

Anyway, my civic duty is done - NOT Tory is all I'm saying.


----------



## Dave S

I would expect a poor turnout would be blamed on the weather rather than apathy.



kimthecat said:


> Will Corbyn resign if Labour loses the Election?


There will always be a position for him if the Bias Broadcasting Company do any remakes of Steptoe and Son, he will make a great Albert Steptoe and John McDonnell could be Harold.


----------



## kimthecat

Dave S said:


> I would expect a poor turnout would be blamed on the weather rather than apathy.
> 
> There will always be a position for him if the Bias Broadcasting Company do any remakes of Steptoe and Son, he will make a great Albert Steptoe and John McDonnell could be Harold.


I think he'd make a good Wishy Washy in Aladdin and Boris as Benny Hill.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> hope she is ok


Her son has been in the news recently for all the wrong reasons: maybe it's getting to her.


----------



## Jonescat

For a little light relief










Wouldn't that be nice?


----------



## Dave S

Irrespective of who wins someone will be out of a job soon with a personalised P45. I just hope that at the next election there is a better choice of candidates and promises because the current promises from the major parties are decidedly disastrous either short or long term.

I thought that Plaid Cymru leader Adam Price had a good idea proposing a new law that make politicians lying illegal;

Plaid Cymru has said they would seek to introduce a form of the law in the next Parliament.

_Called the Elected Representatives (Prohibition of Deception) Bill, the legislation would see elected politicians in the European, Westminster and devolved parliaments face criminal charges if they knowingly mislead the public.

Pointing to the collapsing trust in the leaders of Labour and Tory parties, Mr Price said that this would be a way to restore faith in an age of "fake news, fake views and fake figures". He also pointed to the fact the Trade Descriptions Act, passed in 1968, has been in place for over 50 years to stop companies misleading consumers.
_​If that became a reality they would really have to build more prisons.


----------



## Bisbow

We


JANICE199 said:


> *Boris wants out of the EU, but wait until we see how much more it will cost us. Also how long it will take. Just my views.*


Boris and 17 million plus want out as well
I'm praying he makes it happen


----------



## rona

Bisbow said:


> We
> 
> Boris and 17 million plus want out as well
> I'm praying he makes it happen


I'd rather have had Farage taking us out, I think he's more trustworthy than Boris. While Boris will get us out I think we'll still be at the mercy of big business, both here, the EU and USA, he's going to squeeze us til the pips squeak.
I just hope he goes soon after


----------



## lullabydream

Jonescat said:


> For a little light relief
> 
> View attachment 425271
> 
> 
> Wouldn't that be nice?


Thank you for that, I really needed the humour in this thread... Its often missed am afraid.. Of course there shouldn't be humour I know on the subject but as you say a little light relief does no harm


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> I'd rather have had Farage taking us out, I think he's more trustworthy than Boris. While Boris will get us out I think we'll still be at the mercy of big business, both here, the EU and USA, he's going to squeeze us til the pips squeak.
> I just hope he goes soon after


_Whoever_ takes us out we'll still be at the mercy of big business, both here, the EU and the USA - the person taking us out will have little control over that. Besides Farage has been cosying up to Trump more than even BoJo


----------



## Guest

Imagine tomorrow morning Farage managed to win the United Kingdom General Elections against all odds. He managed to win the referendum vote and nobody thought it would happen.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> Imagine tomorrow morning Farage managed to win the United Kingdom General Elections against all odds. He managed to win the referendum vote and nobody thought it would happen.


This will make no difference, one arrogant buffoon or other?


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> Imagine tomorrow morning Farage managed to win the United Kingdom General Elections against all odds. He managed to win the referendum vote and nobody thought it would happen.


He can't, they haven't got people in every seat. I had no choice to vote brexit party,. 

This is a very very safe Tory seat where the majority voted out


----------



## Jesthar

Just a little light relief courtesy of a friend 

A lot of colourful leaflets though the letterbox over the last few weeks, each full of promise, offering very different tempting visions of the future, with a lot of numbers to try and think about and costs to consider. Are they true, are they fake, can they really deliver? But after a long and often challenging exchange of views, and a lot of personal soul searching, I've finally made my mind up...




...I'll get a Dominos.


----------



## Bisbow

The voting will soon be over and then all the SHOUTING will begin and I can just imagine how much there will be on here whoever wins

Will be interesting to see what is posted


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Her son has been in the news recently for all the wrong reasons: maybe it's getting to her.


I had to google 



Jonescat said:


> For a little light relief
> 
> View attachment 425271
> 
> 
> Wouldn't that be nice?


:Hilarious I'd vote for him . No problem!


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Who knows? Just saw this . . . very strange.
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rs-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html


They're saying its faked on Twitter and showing the real photo , maybe the real photo is fake. 

ETA Lots of abuse against Tories on Twitter from Corbynistas.
They call them Tory and a four letter word beginning with C. It wont be long before they call anyone who doesnt vote Labour the four letter word.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/how-to-interp...tRPi_tBfb93KthyBnY3LmMM8TIWpcTpm1lkXA5v4GtDE#

*How to interpret the early election results*


----------



## Jesthar

And another bit of amusement - took me a second to get this one!


----------



## Guest

It will be interesting to see who will be the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom tomorrow.

This message came out of a meeting with the 27 EU leaders today and that was, they are waiting to know what the United Kingdom wants. The UK elections are important but not on the agenda, the European Union needs a concrete decision made on what the UK wants to do next. Brussels is waiting.


----------



## Jonescat

Anyone else staying up til its done?


----------



## Elles

I decided not to vote.


----------



## kimthecat

Jonescat said:


> Anyone else staying up til its done?


I dont go to bed until 12 , I might stay up a little longer but not all night .


----------



## Jonescat

I have just read that change.org rate my current/last MP the worst in the country!


----------



## Dave S

I would imagine the suspense would be excruciating so I will go to bed at around 10.30 and listen to LBC and get my beauty sleep instead.

The result can wait until breakfast tomorrow.


----------



## Jonescat

I understand your feeling but I can never tear myself away.


----------



## Dave S

Jonescat said:


> I understand your feeling but I can never tear myself away.


Believe me I do not have a problem not watching television as I prefer entertainment to visual irritation.

At present planning a big boxing day dinner then going to read my book.

I have voted and our local MP has been re-elected quite a few times so expect him to be our MP tomorrow as well.


----------



## MollySmith

Best tweet I’ve seen! What a guy his dad must’ve been. 

Anyway voted at 7am and had to queue. We’re in the heart of a university city where everyone is heading home for holidays so this pleased me. People do appear to be turning out which is something. Still can’t bear to watch but our city will almost certainly be Labour or Lib Dem with Green hot on their heels so it’s not terribly tactical.


----------



## Jesthar

Jonescat said:


> Anyone else staying up til its done?


Heck, no. Got my craft stall at the TICA cat show in Coventry this weekend, been up till silly hours the last few nights making and prepping and want to load and leave by 11am!


----------



## Jonescat

Good luck with it  
If anyone else does find themselves gripped, I'll be around.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

I have a strange premonition that out next PM will be a [email protected]


Even if I cannot not predict which party they will be from.....


----------



## Guest

Exit Poll
Conservatives Win 368 (Majority 86 seats)
Labour 191
Lib Dems 13
SNP 55
Green Party 1
Brexit Party 0


----------



## cheekyscrip

I was right...
I am afraid Corbyn will find out that sitting on the fence is not a winner.
Also if a party can’t make a decision and the leader says one thing, others say the opposite no one knows any more what they are on about


----------



## Dave S

If the final result is anywhere near that it will be a shock for a lot of people and in which case who is going to replace JC?


----------



## Jonescat

It is an exit poll not a result but ouch


----------



## Guest

Let's see how it plays out during the night as the actual results come through.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dave S said:


> If the final result is anywhere near that it will be a shock for a lot of people and in which case who is going to replace JC?


Corbyn was a disaster, blame United for keeping him in power.

Corbyn is finished if the polls are right.

He frustrated both Leave and Remain.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Corbyn was a disaster, blame United for keeping him in power.
> 
> Corbyn is finished if the polls are right.
> 
> He frustrated both Leave and Remain.


Exactly, But do you know what , the Corbynistas on Twitter are still blaming everyone but themselves. Corbyn out is trending on twitter.
I dunno , the choice was between a facist and marxist government, 
Looks like Boris gamble has paid off.
he had a Brexit deal , he should have had a peoples vote and then an election.

ETA people are calling for David Milliband to come back and rescue labour.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Exactly, But do you know what , the Corbynistas on Twitter are still blaming everyone but themselves. Corbyn out is trending on twitter.
> I dunno , the choice was between a facist and marxist government,
> Looks like Boris gamble has paid off.
> he had a Brexit deal , he should have had a peoples vote and then an election.
> 
> ETA people are calling for David Milliband to come back and rescue labour.


I agree, PV and election after that. Stupid LibDems went for election and SNP was to gain... at expense of Brexit so what was the point of gaining?
Tories will not give them a second referendum.
David should have been there instead of his awkward brother, unelectable just like Corbyn.

Labour shot themselves in the foot, again and again.
Now we have Brexit and Tories for next decade.
Corbyn is ok for trade unions.

I think that new left might arise , or middle left party.


----------



## MilleD

Jonescat said:


> It is an exit poll not a result but ouch


Only a few results in, but still predicting an 86 majority for the conservatives.

Looks like Boris' gamble might have paid off.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> I agree, PV and election after that. Stupid LibDems went for election and SNP was to gain... at expense of Brexit so what was the point of gaining?
> Tories will not give them a second referendum.
> David should have been there instead of his awkward brother, unelectable just like Corbyn.
> 
> Labour shot themselves in the foot, again and again.
> Now we have Brexit and Tories for next decade.
> Corbyn is ok for trade unions.
> 
> I think that new left might arise , or middle left party.


If you look at voting histories, there has been a pattern of left or right getting in, then that party getting more extreme and a centrist version of the opposition getting back in, then that party swings more extreme and the original party but a more centrist version gets back in.

Sadly, Labour were far too left to defeat the more and more right leaning conservatives. If they'd been less left, they would have got in.

Foolish on their part.

ETA based on current predictions


----------



## Jonescat

It is looking like the poll is right . Somehow Arron Banks has got himself on national TV as a talking head.


----------



## Guest

I have seen that the Conservatives have secured and command majority in the United Kingdom House of Commons.

The Lib Dem Leader Swinson has lost her seat to SNP.

The Labour leader Corbyn has said he will not be standing at the next General Election after losing over 50 seats.

Johnson now has a mandate to take the United Kingdom out of the European Union.

There was a 67.2% turn out of people going to vote.


----------



## Lurcherlad

The People have spoken (again). 

Fingers crossed now that Boris gets Brexit sorted and doesn’t screw the country up with that and everything else over the next 5 years. 

As individuals we need to lobby our own MP’s on the issues that concern us.


----------



## Cully

DAMMIT!!


----------



## Guest

Swinson has resigned as Liberal Democrates leader.


----------



## Guest

Johnson has now been elected by the public as Prime Minister instead of through his party. The public must like him as the Conservatives now have the largest majority by any United Kingdom Government since 2001.

Yes the public have spoken again regarding Brexit and want out of the European Union. The United Kingdom public have now voted twice on this issue (one referendum and one brexit themed General Election).

Johnson's gamble paid off with this General Election.


----------



## Lurcherlad

saartje said:


> Swinson has resigned as Liberal Democrates leader.


Not surprised!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Swinson's unbelievable naivety made that disaster.

SNP cares more about secession than Brexit: if Brexit is a disaster then people will want out of UK back to EU...

That is another gamble which I doubt to pay off.
@kimthecat you are right...political pendulum swings back and forth.

Labour was more keen on their fractions fighting each other than on supporting electable leader like David Miliband was.

I had impression corbynistas would rather have BoJo win than blairaites and vice versa.


----------



## Magyarmum

Conservatives = 361
Labour = 203
SNP = 48
Lib Dem = 11
Other = 4


Jo Swinson's stepped down as leader of the Lib Dems. Corbyn says he won't be standing in the next General election but hasn't said he'll step down as leader.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Conservatives = 361
> Labour = 203
> SNP = 48
> Lib Dem = 11
> Other = 4
> 
> Jo Swinson's stepped down as leader of the Lib Dems. Corbyn says he won't be standing in the next General election but hasn't said he'll step down as leader.


Three seats still outstanding to be declared
Conservatives 362 (+47)
Labour 203 (-59)
SNP 48 (+13)
Lib Dems 11 (-1)
Brexit Party 0 (0)


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I had to google


I'm not surprised you had to google. It didn't (surprisingly) make the headlines that one would expect. . . not sure why.


----------



## Guest

Huge loses for Labour.
Labour have not seen loses like this since 1935.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Only one man lost Labour this election and that's Corbyn, he must have known he wasn't liked, the sooner he resigns the better.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Huge loses for Labour.
> Labour have not seen loses like this since 1935.


Apparently the Conservative majority is the largest since Maggie Thatcher.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/b...ttempt-to-resolve-brexit-stalemate-2019-12-12

*Boris Johnson wins crunch U.K. election with strong majority as pound soars and stocks set to rally*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Apparently the Conservative majority is the largest since Maggie Thatcher.


I have just heard this to.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> Only one man lost Labour this election and that's Corbyn, he must have known he wasn't liked, the sooner he resigns the better.


I think the Labour party let the leave voters in the Labour Party down so the leave voters lent their votes for the Conservatives. Also let's not forget the Jewish Community who said they would not vote for Labour with Corbyn as leader.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I'm not surprised you had to google. It didn't (surprisingly) make the headlines that one would expect. . . not sure why.


I'd read about her son spitting and fighting. Absolutely disgusting behaviour and apparently not the first time it's happened either!


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I think the Labour party let the leave voters in the Labour Party down so the leave voters defected and voted for the Conservatives. Also let's not forget the Jewish Community who said they would not vote for Labour with Corbyn as leader.


According to CNN who did a brilliant coverage, a good part of the Conservative's success was due to their keeping their message simple "Get Brexit Done ", whereas Labour warbled on about the NHS and other issues, which were not forefront in people's minds.

At present the Democrats are in the process of impeaching POTUS. Hopefully, if they can oust him we can start to put the world to rights again!


----------



## Lurcherlad

Great speech by Boris - now he’s got to deliver and stand up to the Party’s new slogans.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I'd read about her son spitting and fighting. Absolutely disgusting behaviour and apparently not the first time it's happened either!


 And biting too, allegedly!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> According to CNN who did a brilliant coverage, a good part of the Conservative's success was due to their keeping their message simple "Get Brexit Done ", whereas Labour warbled on about the NHS and other issues, which were not forefront in people's minds.
> 
> At present the Democrats are in the process of impeaching POTUS. Hopefully, if they can oust him we can start to put the world to rights again!


I agree, Boris promised what people think he can deliver ( if not he will blame EU anyhow).
Corbyn and Labour had no clear message.

Ironic: LibDems supported this election and all they got is splitting votes and getting Brexit done.

At least this woman is out. Lost to SNP, how ironic is that???


----------



## kimthecat

I bet the llamas who voted for Corbyn are laughing.


----------



## Bisbow

Phew
Just got up and seen the result
Fantastic
Now get us out of thr EU


----------



## Magyarmum

Off topic but couldn't resist posting this for @saartje


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Off topic but couldn't resist posting this for @saartje


----------



## Guest

Bisbow said:


> Phew
> Just got up and seen the result
> Fantastic
> Now get us out of thr EU


I think that stage one of Brexit has gone on to long due to the Government being paralysed by the United Kingdom Parliament. Now that the Conservatives have won a majority with Boris remaining as PM Brexit can be delivered with no more hiccups. Brexit is clearly what the United Kingdom public want so it should be delivered.


----------



## Guest

Confirmed the Conservatives have a 79 seat majority with only one seat remaining to be declared.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, this was predictable. Murdoch gets his PM again.
Opposition vote split in many areas allowing a Tory win.

People really fall for propaganda don't they. Such a devisive PM the UK will soon implode. Good riddance to it. Probably why they're recruiting for the army.

As I said earlier, I blame Labour and the Lib Dems for their refusal to work together.

A highlight however was the SNP's excellent showing. They are my choice of party anyway. I was especially pleased when the awful Jo Swinson lost her seat.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Off topic but couldn't resist posting this for @saartje


He must have caused a food shortage and the angry mob decided this was the only way to get rid of him and solve the food shortage. :Vomit


----------



## Jesthar

Jonescat said:


> Somehow Arron Banks has got himself on national TV as a talking head.


Not surprised, it's usual to give the winning sponsors extra publicity TV these days, it's what they pay for


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Phew
> Just got up and seen the result
> Fantastic
> Now get us out of thr EU


You'll be enjoying an American chlorinated turkey next Christmas. Lucky you.

I couldn't care less about Little England anymore. Says a lot about its people who cannot think beyond three worded soundbites. I'm quite looking forward to them finding out what they voted for.

I'm with Scotland. We'll be independent and an EU member again.

Johnson might send in the troops but we'll be ready for them


----------



## rona

The people of

Wrexham, Blyth Valley, Dudley North, Bassetlaw, Great Grimsby, Workington ,Ashfield, Bolsover, Sunderland, Barnsley, Bolton, Stoke, Hartlepool

and many other Labour seats, thank you. Some of you have been Labour supporters all your lives. I applaud your bravery. 
As I've said before and Boris said this morning, if he lets you down you can change in 5 years. This was the only real chance (It should have been 2016) to get out of the EU. 

Thank you again.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> You'll be enjoying an American chlorinated turkey next Christmas. Lucky you.
> 
> I couldn't care less about Little England anymore. Says a lot about its people who cannot think beyond three worded soundbites. I'm quite looking forward to them finding out what they voted for.
> 
> I'm with Scotland. We'll be independent and an EU member again.
> 
> Johnson might send in the troops but we'll be ready for them


The sour grapes are emerging I see


----------



## Guest

Twice the United Kingdom has voted for Brexit (one referendum and one brexit themed general election) with a majority. The United Kingdom public have made it clear they want Brexit so it should be delivered.


----------



## rona

Bisbow said:


> The sour grapes are emerging I see


Honestly, it's not worth your time. We no longer have to counter


----------



## Magyarmum

Bisbow said:


> The sour grapes are emerging I see


You took the words out of my mouth!


----------



## MissFluffy

saartje said:


> Twice the United Kingdom has voted for Brexit (one referendum and one brexit themed general election) with a majority. The United Kingdom public have made it clear they want Brexit so it should be delivered.


With one major BUT: the British people living outside Britain did not get to vote on either of those elections (apparently you need to have an UK address to be allowed to vote), whilst the results affect them most of all. How many hundreds of thousand votes is this, I wonder?


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Honestly, it's not worth your time. We no longer have to counter


Expect to be bombarded with 2 metre high Fakebook and ****-ter posts


----------



## Magyarmum

MissFluffy said:


> With one major BUT: the British people living outside Britain did not get to vote on either of those elections (apparently you need to have an UK address to be allowed to vote), whilst the results affect them most of all. How many hundreds of thousand votes is this, I wonder?


Yes they did,

That is to say except those UK citizens (like me) who were excluded by the 15 year rule.

Or people who didn't get their postal vote either registered or returned to the UK in time.

Certainly in Hungary, we were kept well informed and told exactly what to do if we wished to vote


----------



## MilleD

MissFluffy said:


> With one major BUT: the British people living outside Britain did not get to vote on either of those elections (apparently you need to have an UK address to be allowed to vote), whilst the results affect them most of all. How many hundreds of thousand votes is this, I wonder?


It wouldn't have been enough. Even assuming they all voted Labour which isn't guaranteed of course.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> You'll be enjoying an American chlorinated turkey next Christmas. Lucky you.
> 
> I couldn't care less about Little England anymore. Says a lot about its people who cannot think beyond three worded soundbites. I'm quite looking forward to them finding out what they voted for.
> 
> I'm with Scotland. We'll be independent and an EU member again.
> 
> Johnson might send in the troops but we'll be ready for them


So every single person who voted Tory is an idiot and only you know the truth?


----------



## SbanR

saartje said:


> Johnson has now been elected by the public as Prime Minister instead of through his party. The public must like him as the Conservatives now have the largest majority by any United Kingdom Government since 2001.
> 
> Yes the public have spoken again regarding Brexit and want out of the European Union. The United Kingdom public have now voted twice on this issue (one referendum and one brexit themed General Election).
> 
> Johnson's gamble paid off with this General Election.


I wouldn't necessarily say that we " must like him".
Personally, I dreaded the thought of Corbyn as PM. Agree with @Lurcherlad post #902


----------



## Lurcherlad

OH got his Proxy request in just before close at 5pm on 5th December so I could vote for him whilst he’s in hospital.


----------



## KittenKong

I was talking to a wheelchair user last night who mentioned having to rely on the EHIC card when he visits abroad. He's unable to get affordable medical insurance but the EHIC allows emergency cover if needed.

He said, once the EHIC is no longer valid for UK citizens anymore, he will no longer be able to travel outside the UK.

Before anyone gloats with their renewed, "We won, you lost get over it" comments, please have a moment to reflect on what your Brexit and Tory vote has done.

Thank you.


----------



## Guest

MissFluffy said:


> With one major BUT: the British people living outside Britain did not get to vote on either of those elections (apparently you need to have an UK address to be allowed to vote), whilst the results affect them most of all. How many hundreds of thousand votes is this, I wonder?


I don't get to vote in the United Kingdom Elections because I left the United Kingdom and took up Dutch Nationality along time ago now. I still have a connection to the United Kingdom though as my family live there.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://fullfact.org/blog/2019/dec/general-election-2019-fact-checked/

*General Election 2019, fact checked*


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> The sour grapes are emerging I see


What sour grapes? It was a fantastic result for the SNP and Scotland! And the horrible Swinson has gone.

I'm celebrating that actually.

Means more to me than Little England.


----------



## Dave S

Ok that was a bit of a surprise.

A couple of things though, firstly if JC wants a period of reflection as to why they did so badly it would only take a couple on seconds when he is brushing his teeth this morning to look in the bathroom mirror. He is the reason.

47,587,254 people were entitled to vote - and 67% braved the weather and voted. 44% of those that voted did vote Conservative - 13941086 votes.

I think that is a pretty definite result not worth arguing about.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I was talking to a wheelchair user last night who mentioned having to rely on the EHIC card when he visits abroad. He's unable to get affordable medical insurance but the EHIC allows emergency cover if needed.
> 
> He said, once the EHIC is no longer valid for UK citizens anymore, he will no longer be able to travel outside the UK.
> 
> Before anyone gloats with their renewed, "We won, you lost get over it" comments, please have a moment to reflect on what your Brexit and Tory vote has done.
> 
> Thank you.


It's been said for years that the EHIC is NOT a replacement for insurance.


----------



## Guest

There seems to be a sense of relief in the air in Brussels after the Brexit Election gives the remaining EU27 clarity on what the United Kingdom wants to do. They are asking that the Withdrawal Agreement is voted on as soon as possible in the House of Commons so things can move on to the next stage of the process.


----------



## Jonescat

I agree it is not worth arguing about. 
It is a very clear result.


----------



## MilleD

Jonescat said:


> I agree it is not worth arguing about.
> It is a very clear result.


And the economic world seems happy judging by the pound activity etc.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> he'll go down in history as the most hated PM ever.


Apparently not . . . I'd rethink that if I were you.


----------



## Guest

£1 = €1.20
£1 = $1.34

Very good reaction on the currency exchange as well.


----------



## MissFluffy

Magyarmum said:


> Yes they did,
> 
> That is to say except those UK citizens (like me) who were excluded by the 15 year rule.
> 
> Or people who didn't get their postal vote either registered or returned to the UK in time.
> 
> Certainly in Hungary, we were kept well informed and told exactly what to do if we wished to vote


Nope. My husband is British, had only been living abroad 4 years at the time of the Brexit vote, didn't have any other nationality than British back then and was told by the consulate people he was not eligible to vote. It might have been a tax rather than an address thing now I think of it, I'm not sure anymore. But I know he was far from the only one.


----------



## KittenKong

Personally, I can't wait for Johnson to "Get Brexit Done" now.

The UK will leave, of course, then will be at the mercy of born to rule incompetents with its leader hiding in fridges to avoid the EU "Bullies".

Then comes the Ulster Unionists, furious at having their area treated differently from the rest of the UK, something Theresa May was strong and stable about. This will return to the days of the troubles with a possibility of military intervention in Scotland as well if forced into holding an ", illegal" independence referendum.

Then the new Sunderland Tory MP will have to deal with the aftermath of the closure of the Nissan plant after the no deal Brexit at the end of next year, over 30 years after one of his predecessors welcomed the plant.

Complications with returning to WTO methods with the added complication of the end of the GF agreement that'll hinder a trade deal with the US.

So much to look forward to. I cannot wait.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I was talking to a wheelchair user last night who mentioned having to rely on the EHIC card when he visits abroad. He's unable to get affordable medical insurance but the EHIC allows emergency cover if needed.
> 
> He said, once the EHIC is no longer valid for UK citizens anymore, he will no longer be able to travel outside the UK.
> 
> Before anyone gloats with their renewed, "We won, you lost get over it" comments, please have a moment to reflect on what your Brexit and Tory vote has done.
> 
> Thank you.


I think you'll find that there will be reciprocal agreements for healthcare between the UK and the 27 EU countries. For all you and I know it could already be under discussion. After all, a reciprocal agreement not only benefits UK citizens holidaying abroad, but also citizens of other countries visiting the UK.

After all we already have reciprocal healthcare agreements with several non EU countries!!

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/he...lling-outside-the-european-economic-area-eea/

*Travelling outside the European Economic Area (EEA)*


----------



## Guest

Without going around in circles on Brexit. It has all been discussed before @KittenKong and links provided on things like travelling after Brexit and healthcare after Brexit, trade etc, etc. I think this has been thoroughly discussed before at great lengths on other threads.


----------



## Magyarmum

MissFluffy said:


> Nope. My husband is British, had only been living abroad 4 years at the time of the Brexit vote, didn't have any other nationality than British back then and was told by the consulate people he was not eligible to vote. It might have been a tax rather than an address thing now I think of it, I'm not sure anymore. But I know he was far from the only one.


These are the Government rules for UK citizens living and working abroad.

https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad

*Voting if you move or live abroad*


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Before anyone gloats with their renewed, "We won, you lost get over it" comments


 As I told you more than once on the numerous Brexit threads which sprang up on this pet forum: you know full well (unless your memory is unbelievably bad) that only one person on PF ever said or implied that; *he is no longer a member.* I think the whole business is too much for you: you are beginning to sound unhinged.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> with a possibility of military intervention in Scotland as well if forced into holding an ", illegal" independence referendum.


Wow. You do talk some rubbish....


----------



## stuaz

It’s great to see Corbyn standing down (eventually) and that Jo Swinson lost her seat as well. 

Hopefully we can return to having a healthy viable opposition to keep politics in balance in this country.


----------



## MissFluffy

Magyarmum said:


> These are the Government rules for UK citizens living and working abroad.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad
> 
> *Voting if you move or live abroad*


Well, he enquired and was still told he couldn't for some reason or other.


----------



## Siskin

MissFluffy said:


> Well, he enquired and was still told he couldn't for some reason or other.


We lived abroad for several years and were able to vote without any issues, but then we were working for and paying tax to the government.


----------



## Dave S

Seems that BJ has gone to meet the Queen. Could be a frosty reception with her telling him "Don't ever tell me any more lies"

Good to see a run on the pound etc shows that the rest of the world have confidence in the result.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> It has all been discussed before


A million times, but that won't stop him.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Opposition vote split in many areas allowing a Tory win.
> 
> .


Boris increased his lead by a couple of thousand. Even if all the opposition votes were all added together , he still would have won.
I stuck to my conscience and voted Green . Wouldn't vote extreme left or right .


----------



## Dave S

Now about this Scottish Independence that simply will not happen. Neither will any military action apart from maybe the Salvation Army shaking tambourines.

This is a United Kingdom, of 4 unions. You cannot hop in or out when ever you want and/or enjoy the benefits of the rest of the Union.
SNP have a majority of the 4 million people who were eligible to vote but how many of those who voted did so solely for the reason of making Scotland independent from the rest of the Union.

Thankfully SNP has no representation here is sunny Hertfordshire as they would be seen as irritating as a boil on the bum.


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> OH got his Proxy request in just before close at 5pm on 5th December so I could vote for him whilst he's in hospital.


How is you OH doing? Hope he's ok.


----------



## Guest

Dave S said:


> Seems that BJ has gone to meet the Queen. Could be a frosty reception with her telling him "Don't ever tell me any more lies"


The Queen might say "Can you form a Government Boris Johnson", Boris says "yes", the Queen replies "Now get on with delivering Brexit as I am sick of hearing about it. You have no need to drag me into it by asking me to dissolve Parliament again as you have a majority."


----------



## Dave S

saartje said:


> The Queen might say "Can you form a Government Boris Johnson", Boris says "yes", the Queen replies "Now get on with delivering Brexit as I am sick of hearing about it. You have no need to drag me into it by asking me to dissolve Parliament again as you have a majority."


You are so diplomatic, ever thought about being an MP?


----------



## Guest

Dave S said:


> You are so diplomatic, ever thought about being an MP?


:Hilarious

No. It would bore me silly with all the backstabbing and in fighting within the parties and arguing. I wouldn't want the constant headache.

I'll stay over here with my current job.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> How is you OH doing? Hope he's ok.


Not great tbh.

It's taking longer for his body to bounce back than we hoped and he's feeling pretty rough.

Docs tell us they aren't concerned but it's hard for him feeling so poorly and not much I can do to help 

Thought by now he would be looking at going home. At least there he could get some sleep.


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> Not great tbh.
> 
> It's taking longer for his body to bounce back than we hoped and he's feeling pretty rough.
> 
> Docs tell us they aren't concerned but it's hard for him feeling so poorly and not much I can do to help
> 
> Thought by now he would be looking at going home. At least there he could get some sleep.


Sorry to hear this,  Sending healing thoughts.



saartje said:


> I don't think Trump's impeachment will be successful.


I dont either


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Boris increased his lead by a couple of thousand. Even if all the opposition votes were all added together , he still would have won.
> I stuck to my conscience and voted Green . Wouldn't vote extreme left or right .


What I believe to be instrumental in the landslide was Farage standing candidates down in the Tory constituencies and encouraging them to vote Tory. Those who would never usually have voted Tory but would've voted for Farage had his blessing to do so.

If he had not done so, the far right vote would have been split and we could be looking at another hung Parliament this morning.

Labour and the Lib Dems should take note. They didn't with both leaders suffering the concequences this morning, and rightly so.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Wow. You do talk some rubbish....


If Johnson stubbornly refuses a stronger Scotland what they voted for, goodness knows what will happen. The SNP's brilliant landslide has strengthened the appetite for an independence referendum. It was clear in black and white and what the Scottish people voted for. You could argue the English voted Tory to, "Get Brexit Done".

Now, imagine if Johnson stubbornly refuses to allow for this, fuelling division further between Scotland and Westminster over the next year or two.


----------



## Magyarmum

Can't remember who it is on this thread that has John Redwood as their MP, but I see he got in again for the umpteenth time?

Not that I like him but Wokingham has a special place in my heart because it's where my two sons were born!


----------



## Magyarmum

My son and his warped sense of humour ......... you see what I have to put up with

"we are open for business now, and we will soon be accepting serious cash offers for the sale of a small whiskey producing province to the north and on some good farmland with sea views to the west.accessed by a short ferry ride.cash buyers only.also on sale is an ailing health service,ideal for asset stripping.....sadly our ports ,railways,airports,post offices and water distribution network will not be for sale,as these were sold by previous conservative regimes........".


----------



## Dave S

saartje said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> No. It would bore me silly with all the backstabbing and in fighting within the parties and arguing. I wouldn't want the constant headache.
> .


Bit like being on here sometimes then.


----------



## rona

I see Swinson hasn't learnt anything and is still insulting the general public and thinking she has some god given right to tell us how to live and how to think


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I see Swinson hasn't learnt anything and is still insulting the general public and thinking she has some god given right to tell us how to live and how to think


Definitely someone who has aspirations way above her abilities! She who only a few weeks ago was confident she'd be PM


----------



## Guest

The election was won fairly and opposition MP's will now need to accept this and that Johnson will be PM for the next 5 years. The public made their voices heard again, they want Brexit to happen.


----------



## rona

I see the FTSE 250 has reached an all time high

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c9qdqqkgz27t/ftse-100


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> If Johnson stubbornly refuses a stronger Scotland what they voted for, goodness knows what will happen. The SNP's brilliant landslide has strengthened the appetite for an independence referendum. It was clear in black and white and what the Scottish people voted for. You could argue the English voted Tory to, "Get Brexit Done".
> 
> Now, imagine if Johnson stubbornly refuses to allow for this, fuelling division further between Scotland and Westminster over the next year or two.


It's sensational to make statements of "military intervention". I expect that sort of headline from the Sun or Daily Mail newspaper. The more likely approach is via the courts, with getting a Supreme Court ruling.

That said, it's rather naive to think just because the SNP were voted the majority party that everyone of there voters wants independence. In the same way it would be foolish to think all Tory voters would want Brexit, particularly when you take into account the other party options...

A lot of the polls on Independence are very minor ether way, if that changes now after this election with the conservatives getting majority, remains to be seen. Where as if some normality returns to Politics, maybe it won't have an effect on the independence polls. And let's not forget, Scotland would still need to address a lot of of main issues such as EU membership, finances etc which were not really addressed properly last time...

But let's stop with the sensationalisation of things, it just distracts from what may be a valid point your making.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> The election was won fairly and opposition MP's will now need to accept this and that Johnson will be PM for the next 5 years. The public made their voices heard again, they want Brexit to happen.


I know you like to make predictions like this and like a bet but I wouldn't put to much of a stake on Johnson being PM for 5 years, if things don't quite go his way and his popularity starts to wane his party will want him out, don't mess this up Johnson is probably his party`s mantra, time will tell!


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I see the FTSE 250 has reached an all time high


Just shows, us deluded idiots weren't so wrong in having faith in the country after all!


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> I see the FTSE 250 has reached an all time high
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c9qdqqkgz27t/ftse-100


Have you seen how the Guardian report it ? And I quote:

*Billionaires become even richer after Tory win*

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...h-brexit-says-dutch-pm/?utm_source=newsletter

*British election results mean we can 'now get on with Brexit' says Dutch PM*


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> It's sensational to make statements of "military intervention". I expect that sort of headline from the Sun or Daily Mail newspaper. The more likely approach is via the courts, with getting a Supreme Court ruling.
> 
> That said, it's rather naive to think just because the SNP were voted the majority party that everyone of there voters wants independence. In the same way it would be foolish to think all Tory voters would want Brexit, particularly when you take into account the other party options...
> 
> A lot of the polls on Independence are very minor ether way, if that changes now after this election with the conservatives getting majority, remains to be seen. Where as if some normality returns to Politics, maybe it won't have an effect on the independence polls. And let's not forget, Scotland would still need to address a lot of of main issues such as EU membership, finances etc which were not really addressed properly last time...
> 
> But let's stop with the sensationalisation of things, it just distracts from what may be a valid point your making.


You forget Johnson intends to limit people referring them to the Supreme Court, effectively putting themselves above the law. Didn't you read Pg 48 of their manifesto? This amounts to a dictatorship if Johnson and his government can no longer be held to account.

People were warned about this but, hey, "Get Brexit Done".....

My comments speculate what could happen, rather than what I might reckon will happen.

Johnson hardly has a reputation for tact does he, his stupidity as FS contributed to a poor woman's increased time of imprisonment in Iran.

He would be more likely to cause trouble, rather than the opposite. The type of person who's throw the first punch, then ask questions later. This kind of behaviour used to start wars (and still does).

Actually, what I think would be more likely to happen is, he'll eventually U-turn on his refusal to grant Scotland an Independence referendum, then rely on his friends in the media to jeperdise it, like they successfully did in 2014.

But seeing the BBC's negativity towards the SNP backfired in this election, it would seem the Scottish people are less gullible than the English.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> the far right vote would have been split


 You wouldn't know ''far right'' if it kicked you in the arse. Allegedly.


----------



## Guest

Conservatives majority has gone up to 80 (365 seats) after the last seat was announced.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I see Swinson hasn't learnt anything and is still insulting the general public and thinking she has some god given right to tell us how to live and how to think


I agree, don't choke! I couldn't stand her and was overjoyed when she lost her seat to the SNP.

I saw her speak at the October PV rally where she bleated on about saving the union (UK) which wasn't what the march was all about.

She single handedly ended the same PV campaign by calling for a GE we all knew would backfire and allow a Johnson majority.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> That said, it's rather naive to think just because the SNP were voted the majority party that everyone of there voters wants independence. In the same way it would be foolish to think all Tory voters would want Brexit, particularly when you take into account the other party options...
> 
> A lot of the polls on Independence are very minor ether way, if that changes now after this election with the conservatives getting majority, remains to be seen. Where as if some normality returns to Politics, maybe it won't have an effect on the independence polls. And let's not forget, Scotland would still need to address a lot of of main issues such as EU membership, finances etc which were not really addressed properly last time...
> 
> But let's stop with the sensationalisation of things, it just distracts from what may be a valid point your making.


 We all know the priority in this election was about "Getting Brexit Done" in much the same sense in Scotland it was about calling for another Independence vote.

While I can't speak for everyone of course, I was talking to an ex Tory Remainer yesterday, who said she could never vote for them through their Brexit policy.

I'm sure the vast majority of Scots who voted for the SNP support their policy on that. If they were committed Unionists, surely they would have voted for such a party?

Indeed, the appetite for Independence has increased since Johnson became PM!


----------



## Dave S

rona said:


> I see the FTSE 250 has reached an all time high
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c9qdqqkgz27t/ftse-100


Good news that as it means the Dave S fortune is on the rise. 
Rock on Boris  

Ok the bubble will burst as he is a bumbling buffoon and pillock but at least we are setting off on the right foot, dread to think how much it would have dropped if labour had a majority.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> I'm sure the vast majority of Scots who voted for the SNP support their policy on that. If they were committed Unionists, surely they would have voted for such a party?


While I would never be arrogant enough to say I know every reason why someone voted for who, (Even Nicola Sturgeon herself has said that she recognises that's not everyone who voted for her wants independence, they just didn't want Tory and didn't see Labour as a credible option. And let's not forget that all of this is based on first past the post voting...

I haven't seen the exact numbers but how many people actually voted for non-SNP parties in total? Against the number that voted for SNP only? Using your logic, if the number of people who voted for other parties is greater than the number who voted for SNP then it means they don't want independence overall...


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/a-vote-for-scottish-independence-54-of-scots-backed-pro-union-parties-pamela-nash-1-5062121?utm_campaign=The Scotsman - Daily RSS&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=80748012&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--bqhaJw1Og8QxUXq5C89cn7XJruzaDEBgM8TOeGHFhK9ZPmf-5JbSmJ0vXgA74-cTOzuW4Wg7obkTCVRtf4jj-knD-pQ&_hsmi=80748012

*A vote for Scottish independence? 54% of Scots backed pro-Union parties - Pamela Nash*

*The SNP's general election campaign was dominated by trying to "Stop Brexit" and a majority of Scots still backed parties in favour of staying in the UK, writes Pamela Nash, chief executive of Scotland in Union.*


----------



## Dave S

stuaz said:


> I haven't seen the exact numbers but how many people actually voted for non-SNP parties in total? Against the number that voted for SNP only? Using your logic, if the number of people who voted for other parties is greater than the number who voted for SNP then it means they don't want independence overall...


*Turnout*

Registered voters: 4,053,140
% share:

68.1% turnout
SNP 48 seats 1,242,380 votes 45% share

Conservative 692,939 votes 25.1%
Lib Dem 263,417 votes 9.5%
Labour 511,838 votes 18.6%
Green 28,122 votes 1%
Brexit 13,243 votes 0.5%
UKIP 3,303 votes 0.1%
Others 3,819 votes 0.1%

_Therefore 1,516,681 did not vote for SNP and independent Scotland_.


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> If Johnson stubbornly refuses a stronger Scotland what they voted for, goodness knows what will happen. The SNP's brilliant landslide has strengthened the appetite for an independence referendum. It was clear in black and white and what the Scottish people voted for. You could argue the English voted Tory to, "Get Brexit Done".
> 
> Now, imagine if Johnson stubbornly refuses to allow for this, fuelling division further between Scotland and Westminster over the next year or two.


Absolutely chuffed with the results in Scotland, especially that a couple of affluent authorities that were expected to keep their loyalty to conservatives actually chose SNP. I haven't had the time to read much today, but I suspect the younger generation has played their part. Gutted for my friends living down south, but it wasn't exactly unexpected. Disappointed but not surprised perfectly sums up today's mood...


----------



## gskinner123

[QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1065544681, Didn't you read Pg 48 of their manifesto?[/QUOTE]

Doubtless there are many who did read the Tory manifesto but I can't include a single one in that 'many' whom I personally know and who voted Tory. Elections aren't decided upon manifestos.. reading those words back to myself will never fail to make me incredulous. And please don't anyone try to explain to me the nature of politics and why that's the case.

One dear, lovely friend who has been expertly telling me for weeks on end why we need out of the EU and why we should be voting Tory, expressed confusion and surprise to me yesterday at why Boris Johnson's name wasn't on her ballot paper. And no, we don't live in his constituency.


----------



## Calvine

gskinner123 said:


> why Boris Johnson's name wasn't on her ballot paper.


 Just when you think you've heard it all, eh?


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

.


----------



## Elles

MissMiloKitty said:


> A fair few Brexiteers didn't even know what they were voting for and many were too old to be affected by it.
> 
> I remember Facebook comments the day after a referendum. They said "I voted to come out now, not in two years time"
> 
> I thought that people should have been made to sit a test before being allowed to vote on Europe and with an age limit of 60. A large percentage of people age 17 would have voted remain if they could.


Ouch. 

I'm not sure with an opinion like that you should be given a vote. I presume you're a very young person?

No doubt the test question would have been 'Do you want to remain in the Eu' and only those answering "Yes" given the vote.

The oldest people in the country are over 100 years old. Do you think Brexit isn't going to affect us for 40 years?


----------



## Bisbow

MissMiloKitty said:


> A fair few Brexiteers didn't even know what they were voting for and many were too old to be affected by it.
> 
> I remember Facebook comments the day after a referendum. They said "I voted to come out now, not in two years time"
> 
> I thought that people should have been made to sit a test before being allowed to vote on Europe and with an age limit of 60. A large percentage of people age 17 would have voted remain if they could.


Yes, I am over 60 and yes, I voted out and I am not stupid
I voted out for the sake of my grand childrens future
For them to be able to choose for them selves and not be dictated to a bunch of unelected idiots
Stop being so insulting to older people, You will be old one day if you are lucky and see how you feel to be asked to do a test


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## rona

What the hell are they protesting about now? 

Don't they know what democracy is?


----------



## shadowmare

rona said:


> What the hell are they protesting about now?
> 
> Don't they know what democracy is?


It's called freedom of speech. It's one of fundamentals of democracy.


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

Elles said:


> Ouch.
> 
> I'm not sure with an opinion like that you should be given a vote. I presume you're a very young person?
> 
> No doubt the test question would have been 'Do you want to remain in the Eu' and only those answering "Yes" given the vote.
> 
> The oldest people in the country are over 100 years old. Do you think Brexit isn't going to affect us for 40 years?


. I was actually being a little tounge in cheek actually. I shall edit my original comment seeing as I've now insulted people.


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

Bisbow said:


> Yes, I am over 60 and yes, I voted out and I am not stupid
> I voted out for the sake of my grand childrens future
> For them to be able to choose for them selves and not be dictated to a bunch of unelected idiots
> Stop being so insulting to older people, You will be old one day if you are lucky and see how you feel to be asked to do a test


Sorry I was a bit harsh. I didn't mean to be .. I just want this over with now..


----------



## rona

shadowmare said:


> It's called freedom of speech. It's one of fundamentals of democracy.


What "defy Tory rule", that's their democratic placards


----------



## Guest

MissMiloKitty said:


> A fair few Brexiteers didn't even know what they were voting for and many were too old to be affected by it.
> 
> I remember Facebook comments the day after a referendum. They said "I voted to come out now, not in two years time"
> 
> I thought that people should have been made to sit a test before being allowed to vote on Europe and with an age limit of 60. A large percentage of people age 17 would have voted remain if they could.


Oh dear.

This has already happened in 2016 when a democratic vote took place in the United Kingdom it was called a referendum. Yesterday another democratic process happened and it was called a General Election which confirmed that people still wanted to leave the European Union. Young (people over the age of 18 as this is the youngest legal voting age in the United Kingdom) and older people took part in both of these votes.

For over he last 3 years people (including MP's, members of the public, Lawyers, Lords etc) have been trying to stop democracy from happening by stopping what was democratically voted for in 2016 but yesterday the people of the United Kingdom made their voices heard again by giving the Conservatives an overwhelming majority in the General Election.

The people of the United Kingdom have made it clear they want to leave the European Union so this should now happen.


----------



## Bisbow

MissMiloKitty said:


> Sorry I was a bit harsh. I didn't mean to be .. I just want this over with now..


Apology accepted
Thank you
I think we all want it over


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

saartje said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> This has already happened in 2016 when a democratic vote took place in the United Kingdom it was called a referendum. Yesterday another democratic process happened and it was called a General Election which confirmed that people still wanted to leave the European Union. Young (people over the age of 18 as this is the youngest legal voting age in the United Kingdom) and older people took part in both of these votes.
> 
> For over he last 3 years people (including MP's, members of the public, Lawyers, Lords etc) have been trying to stop democracy from happening by stopping what was democratically voted for in 2016 but yesterday the people of the United Kingdom made their voices heard again by giving the Conservatives an overwhelming majority in the General Election.


Would Farage have not campaigned for another referendum if the vote was reversed? 2% isn't much is it.
1975 referendum result was a much higher % in favour.
Yesterdays election was a safe majority though wasn't it.


----------



## Guest

MissMiloKitty said:


> Would Farage have not campaigned for another referendum if the vote was reversed? 2% isn't much is it.
> 1975 referendum result was a much higher % in favour.
> Yesterdays election was a safe majority though wasn't it.


As far as I was aware no one knew which way this General Election (2019) was going to go.


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

☺


Bisbow said:


> Apology accepted
> Thank you
> I think we all want it over


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

saartje said:


> As far as I was aware no one knew which way this General Election (2019) was going to go.


Well we do now. Traditional red seats going blue. I think a lot of people were expecting that though. I most certainly didn't expect Labour to win


----------



## Guest

The referendum has happened it is time to move on. The United Kingdom people have made it clear they want to leave the European Union. Why deny them this? Let democracy take place.

The European Union 27 leaders want to move onto the next process and they have congratualted Boris Johnson on winning the General Election.


----------



## Dave S

Now we have all that election out of the way, and we now have at least 2 people from Scotland on here, can someone, preferably Scottish, please explain to me what benefits they would gain from an Independent Scotland, verses the disadvantages?


----------



## Guest

MissMiloKitty said:


> Well we do now. Traditional red seats going blue. I think a lot of people were expecting that though. I most certainly didn't expect Labour to win


From what I understand is Labour let them down on Brexit, Corbyn's anti-semetic views and not being clear what he wanted to do with Brexit (by sitting on the fence). Boris made it clear what he was offering and people from the Labour side decided to lend their votes to the Conservatives.

I don't know anything more than this because I don't live in the United Kingdom and I am not getting involved in a debate on this.


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

I think everyone is sick of it now and just want it over.


----------



## Guest

MissMiloKitty said:


> I think everyone is sick of it now and just want it over.


Yes I think everyone does want it over an done with.


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

saartje said:


> From what I understand is Labour let them down on Brexit, Corbyn's anti-semetic views and not being clear what he wanted to do with Brexit (by sitting on the fence). Boris made it clear what he was offering and people from the Labour side decided to lend their votes to the Conservatives.
> 
> I don't know anything more than this because I don't live in the United Kingdom and I am not getting involved in a debate on this.


Yes. Corbyn didn't quite turn out to be what people thought at first and I don't think this is the right time for a change of government anyway.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Can't remember who it is on this thread that has John Redwood as their MP, but I see he got in again for the umpteenth time?
> 
> Not that I like him but Wokingham has a special place in my heart because it's where my two sons were born!


That would be me. He was so confident of winning he didn't even really campaign. I had two leaflets from him - both of which were 80+% slagging off the other parties at a rough guesstimate. Oh, and he planted some trees and is therefore doing his bit for climate change...

Oh a more serious note, can I please urge everyone remember that there are people out there who are genuinely very distressed by the result of this election due to their circumstances, including many vulnerable people who fear the Tories will make life even more difficult for them through no fault of their own. Some may even be suicidal. Please keep an eye out and check up on those you have concerns about.


----------



## HarlequinCat

shadowmare said:


> It's called freedom of speech. It's one of fundamentals of democracy.


As far as I can see, fine, freedom of speech is important. But these are Antifa, who are being borderline if not totally aggressive. This is not a peaceful protest

"At one point, people attacked the Metropolitan Police and chanted "Scum!" at them. Those attacking police appear to belong to Antifa as they are wearing the standard black garb and waving the Antifa flag."


----------



## shadowmare

rona said:


> What "defy Tory rule", that's their democratic placards


Yup. That's the beauty of a free world. What's wrong with even that specific slogan, rona? The vote is held. The winner has been announced. But nowhere under the description of democracy does it say that the losing side has to "shut up and get on with it". People who are unhappy are still allowed to express their views and beliefs. That's the beauty of free speech.



Dave S said:


> Now we have all that election out of the way, and we now have at least 2 people from Scotland on here, *can someone, preferably Scottish*, please explain to me what benefits they would gain from an Independent Scotland, verses the disadvantages?


What's that supposed to mean?


----------



## shadowmare

HarlequinCat said:


> As far as I can see, fine, freedom of speech is important. But these are Antifa, who are being borderline if not totally aggressive. This is not a peaceful protest
> 
> "At one point, people attacked the Metropolitan Police and chanted "Scum!" at them. Those attacking police appear to belong to Antifa as they are wearing the standard black garb and waving the Antifa flag."


Can't comment on that as I'm not sure which protest you're talking about. Currently there's several of them across the UK. Hard to keep track of all the peed off people... 
either way, there's always idiots on both sides who overstep the line. I'm not talking about the extremes or those who join marches just to have a bit of fist fun.


----------



## Dave S

shadowmare said:


> Yup. That's the beauty of a free world. What's wrong with even that specific slogan, rona? The vote is held. The winner has been announced. But nowhere under the description of democracy does it say that the losing side has to "shut up and get on with it". People who are unhappy are still allowed to express their views and beliefs. That's the beauty of free speech.
> 
> What's that supposed to mean?


I actually asking from a Scottish perspective, not being nasty or anything but there has been a contributor rattling on about this for a while but has not said what it means to him.


----------



## HarlequinCat

shadowmare said:


> Can't comment on that as I'm not sure which protest you're talking about. Currently there's several of them across the UK. Hard to keep track of all the peed off people...
> either way, there's always idiots on both sides who overstep the line. I'm not talking about the extremes or those who join marches just to have a bit of fist fun.


It's the one in London trying to March on the houses of parliament. I think the same one @rona is talking about. Not too many news stations reporting on it at the moment oddly enough

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/b...-london-following-conservative-landslide-win/


----------



## shadowmare

Dave S said:


> I actually asking from a Scottish perspective, not being nasty or anything but there has been a contributor rattling on about this for a while but has not said what it means to him.


Well, I guess mine wouldn't count as I'm not Scottish. But to sum up all the Scottish people around me: a) "A Union is supposed to be that of equals. In this case it is not and clearly will never be. You're reminded of that every time the English government speaks about Scotland or the Scottish government." b) For the same reason that the English want to be out of EU. What's so hard to understand?"

From what I hear around me I think many people are so sick of being in this "union" that they'll rather struggle as an independent country than continue with the way things are going now. Scotland didn't vote for this government. They did not want Boris anywhere near them (I think that was clearly shown to him on his attempted visit). But here we are... Why should Scotland "shut up and get on with it"?


----------



## Satori




----------



## Calvine

shadowmare said:


> I'm not sure which protest you're talking about


Me neither.


----------



## Guest

Could it be this protest?

*Hundreds of protesters descend on Downing Street to 'defy Tory rule' after Boris Johnson's election victory*
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-boris-johnson-general-election-a4313391.html

*Clashes breakout outside Parliament as hundreds of protesters descend on Whitehall*
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-police-separate-anti-tory-21093589.amp


----------



## Guest

Boris Johnson has rejected calls from Sturgeon for a second Independence Referendum.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> Boris Johnson has rejected calls from Sturgeon for a second Independence Referendum.


*It will be interesting to see how this turns out.*


----------



## Elles

Looks like Labour voters think Facebook and Twitter is really important, because they use it a lot. Especially students I expect.

Most of the top 10 videos were Labour supporting. We don't see Boris until number 8 and only 2 are in Boris' favour.

Corbyn's Facebook got over 72 million views. Labour and Jeremy Corbyn were far more popular on social media. I myself only saw Labour ads on YouTube and Facebook, I didn't see any conservative.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50744503


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> Looks like Labour voters think Facebook and Twitter is really important, because they use it a lot. Especially students I expect.
> 
> Most of the top 10 videos were Labour supporting. We don't see Boris until number 8 and only 2 are in Boris' favour.
> 
> Corbyn's Facebook got over 72 million views. Labour and Jeremy Corbyn were far more popular on social media. I myself only saw Labour ads on YouTube and Facebook, I didn't see any conservative.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50744503


*I prefer facebook for my news. I rarely watch the news on telly, and never buy a news paper.*


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Corbyn's Facebook got over 72 million views.


From who though?
People gloating?
Children?
People not in the United Kingdom?
Corbyn Supporters?
Russia?


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Labour and Jeremy Corbyn were far more popular on social media.


Labour and Corbyn wasn't very popular though in the most important thing when people cast their votes on the 12th December 2019.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> Labour and Corbyn wasn't very popular though in the most important thing when people cast their votes on the 12th December 2019.


*Had it not been about brexit i think labour would have won.*


----------



## Bisbow

JANICE199 said:


> *Had it not been about brexit i think labour would have won.*


I think not
Most people saw through his ruse of offering the world on a silver platter to anyone who wanted it


----------



## JANICE199

Bisbow said:


> I think not
> Most people saw through his ruse of offering the world on a silver platter to anyone who wanted it


*Now i don't see it like that. How can that be the problem but then the people voted for an outright liar? People have been moaning about the state of this country under a tory government, yet they voted them in. I actually saw someone yesterday say, " we are sick of the way this country is going, so we voted for change".  What do they think they are getting? *


----------



## Bisbow

JANICE199 said:


> *Now i don't see it like that. How can that be the problem but then the people voted for an outright liar? People have been moaning about the state of this country under a tory government, yet they voted them in. I actually saw someone yesterday say, " we are sick of the way this country is going, so we voted for change".  What do they think they are getting? *


No bigger liar than Boris. ?Where do you think all the money was coming from ?
"All the rich " who would leave the country with their money as fast as they could
We would then be worse off than any third world country

is that what you really want


----------



## StormyThai

JANICE199 said:


> What do they think they are getting?


Brexit...Brexit...Brexit 

I won't claim to speak for all but the people that I have spoken too all say the same 
BJ knew this would close the deal for him, he isn't as stupid as he makes out...liar, misogynistic, and an overall toss-pot, yes...but not stupid!


----------



## Lurcherlad

Boris hasn’t been in charge for long so who knows, maybe he will deliver and things will improve - especially for those who have been struggling from the austerity measures?

No point creating havoc at this stage imo.


----------



## Siskin

JANICE199 said:


> *Now i don't see it like that. How can that be the problem but then the people voted for an outright liar? People have been moaning about the state of this country under a tory government, yet they voted them in. I actually saw someone yesterday say, " we are sick of the way this country is going, so we voted for change".  What do they think they are getting? *


It's far more complex then 'just about brexit'. Yes people are fed up to the back teeth of it and want it all over and done with, but most people also disliked and distrusted Corbyn and his followers and did not want a communist bunch of louts running the country. He promised the world to everyone but couldn't explain properly how it would all come about, the majority did not believe him. He sat on the fence over everything and has been incapable of making a decision, just waffles on and on.
The Momentum group worry me intently as their main concern is to shut down any dissent against Corbyn quite often making up lies about anyone in order to disparage anything they have said. It reminds me very much of East Germany during the communist era before the Wall came down where everyone was watched and the slightest word against the State and you became instantly the enemy who must be eradicated by any means, fair or foul.
His initials may have been JC, but he was no saviour.


----------



## Bisbow

I am not a Boris fan but he is the lesser of the two evils by a very long way


----------



## Siskin

Bisbow said:


> I am not a Boris fan but he is the lesser of the two evils by a very long way


Same here


----------



## Elles

Corbyn and his crew lost Labour their seats, pure and simple. 

He couldn’t beat Theresa May and standing on a fence throwing freebies at the crowds who would ultimately pay for them didn’t work either. When MacDonnell said no one should be a billionaire, thousands of young people aspiring to YouTube and Instagram millionaire status were turned off and they were his biggest supporters. A more moderate leader, who wouldn’t throw money away providing free broadband for all, when people are using food banks and sleeping on the streets, might have done better. Especially if they too had promised to get Brexit done. People in this country clearly don’t want a Marxist government.

In fact Labour isn’t intended to be the Marxist party, they should start up their own, instead of infiltrating the moderate left.


----------



## Magyarmum

A rather prophetic FT article about BJ written in August of this year.

https://www.ft.com/content/3de68e8a-b9d7-11e9-8a88-aa6628ac896c

*Boris Johnson is not Churchill but de Gaulle*
Political flux creates opportunities, but only a non-traditional Tory can seize them


----------



## HarlequinCat

JANICE199 said:


> *Now i don't see it like that. How can that be the problem but then the people voted for an outright liar? People have been moaning about the state of this country under a tory government, yet they voted them in. I actually saw someone yesterday say, " we are sick of the way this country is going, so we voted for change".  What do they think they are getting? *


I'm glad Corbyn didnt win. And it's nothing to do with Brexit for me. He would have spent all the money and created huge debt for the country. Have you noticed his devoted followers are all quite zealous. It was almost cult like, how they would chant "oh Jeremy Corbyn". He never discouraged the anti semitism that appears to be rife in his party.

His manifesto was laughable. He wanted to spend 2 trillion for free services etc. That money would have come from somewhere - being the taxes of the average working family. A lot of people saw this and knew there is no realistic way it could happen. He would have taxed the wealthy out of this country which would be bad for the economy, all the big business would have moved to cheaper places.

In my eyes he made himself and his party unelectable. I know people in my family who have been labour supporters all their life, but just couldnt vote for him.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris's cabinet reshuffle.


----------



## MilleD

shadowmare said:


> Well, I guess mine wouldn't count as I'm not Scottish. But to sum up all the Scottish people around me: a) "A Union is supposed to be that of equals. In this case it is not and clearly will never be. You're reminded of that every time the English government speaks about Scotland or the Scottish government."


Quite right. The Scots get far more government money spent per capita on them than the English.


----------



## StormyThai

Other countries are able to offer 4 day weeks, other countries are able to offer free broadband, other countries are able to tax the rich whilst helping the poor and it works....Oh no, can't possibly do that, it's much better to trust a party that has squeezed the poor more and more with each day, it's so much better trusting a man that couldn't tell the truth if it jumped up in his face and bit him!

Sorry but I find it laughable...well it would be if this wasn't going to negatively effect many long term sick and already poor people.


/I'm out....hopefully my illness won't stop me finding a better place to live because the UK sure isn't welcoming to those of us that worked our arses off but were unlucky enough to develop a serious illness 

Have fun peeps!


----------



## gskinner123

Bisbow said:


> I think not
> Most people saw through his ruse of offering the world on a silver platter to anyone who wanted it


People in the UK have such terribly low expectations. How sad.


----------



## kimthecat

shadowmare said:


> From what I hear around me I think many people are so sick of being in this "union" that they'll rather struggle as an independent country than continue with the way things are going now. Scotland didn't vote for this government. They did not want Boris anywhere near them (I think that was clearly shown to him on his attempted visit). But here we are... Why should Scotland "shut up and get on with it"?


I think the Scots should be allowed another referendum because they didnt know at the time that there would be a referendum that would mean leaving the EU.
But if they did leave the Union and were accepted by the EU , what would happen about a border, would there have to be one between Scotland and England. How would it work with the NHS . Would they still be part of ours or have to have their own? would the Scots still get free prescription ?


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *Had it not been about brexit i think labour would have won.*


I doubt that, but Corbyn's dithering stance didn't help.

Thatcher won a similar majority against Neil Kinnock, hardly to the left of the Labour party, in 1987 despite the Poll Tax being in their manifesto.

It was a combination of media bias and the tribalism that resulted in Labour's defeat. In 1987, David Steele told his party, "Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government" while Labour had their, "We don't do deals with other parties" attitude.

Now, imagine if Swinson and Corbyn did what Farage did, by withdrawing candidates in areas they couldn't win in and publicly supporting the best candidate placed to beat the Tories in the area? We could have had a hung Parliament.

Instead, they competed and split the opposition vote.

Nothing learned from 1987 then. Perhaps they can learn from that.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I think the Scots should be allowed another referendum because they didnt know at the time that there would be a referendum that would mean leaving the EU.
> But if they did leave the Union and were accepted by the EU , what would happen about a border, would there have to be one between Scotland and England. How would it work with the NHS . Would they still be part of ours or have to have their own? would the Scots still get free prescription ?


Johnson has already threatened to "Take Back Control" of the Scottish NHS from Holyrood back to Westminster. Perhaps he didn't expect such an SNP landslide.

Sadly, a hard England/Scotland border will be inevitable if Johnson is determined to take England out of the SM and CU.

Then, knowing Johnson, how can anyone trust him to deliver what he promises......


----------



## shadowmare

MilleD said:


> Quite right. The Scots get far more government money spent per capita on them than the English.


It's a Schrodinger's Scot: too much of a burden for the English government but not a big burden enough to let go apparently


----------



## Elles

There are no countries where broadband is free. The rich in this country are taxed and the poor helped. There could be debate on the 4 day week and where and how to implement it. I think just putting it in as a manifesto promise was too much.

We could do better in many areas of course, but what Corbyn was suggesting was too much, too fast, too soon, too socialist, so it was rejected.

Boris said leave the Eu, we’ll all be better off and people voted to leave the Eu and now for Boris to prove what he said was right.

Other parties said leave the Eu and it will be a disaster, the scale of which will be worse than the war, with no food, water, or medicine. We voted to leave the Eu, so how come it’s suddenly a rose garden, if we would only vote for Labour? 

At least Swinson was honest. She doesn’t care what people vote for, she’ll do what she thinks best. It’s what they all do really. 

I think Scotland may eventually get their second referendum, but they need to know exactly what it means and whether it does mean staying in the Eu and on what terms. I think Scotland should get independence if that’s what they want.


----------



## Elles

So when Labour do win, is that tribalism and the mainstream media? The same people who voted for Labour all their lives used to be sensible, not influenced by the media and not at all tribal, until they voted conservative. Then they turned into dribbling fools I suppose.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> What the hell are they protesting about now?
> 
> Don't they know what democracy is?


Wasn't there a protest against Trump after he got elected?

Yes, I accept the Election result, but that doesn't change my views on Johnson. It won't make him loved and popular because he won.

Wouldn't you have felt the same had Corbyn won? Would it have been wrong for Jewish people not to protest against him through the party anti Semitism because he became Prime Minister?


----------



## StormyThai

Broadband universal service, also known as "universal service obligation" or "universal broadband service" is available in:-
Switzerland
Finland
Spain

Switzerland was the first country in the world to provide broadband universal service in January 2008, followed by Spain and Finland each guaranteeing 1Mbps.


----------



## kimthecat

gskinner123 said:


> People in the UK have such terribly low expectations. How sad.


or perhaps they don't believe in magic money trees.


----------



## Elles

StormyThai said:


> Broadband universal service, also known as "universal service obligation" or "universal broadband service" is available in:-
> Switzerland
> Finland
> Spain
> 
> Switzerland was the first country in the world to provide broadband universal service in January 2008, followed by Spain and Finland each guaranteeing 1Mbps.


It's still paid for isn't it, it's not free? It says landlords will often include it in the rent. Corbyn said free internet for all, not fast Internet availability for all. There are no countries where the Internet is actually free of charge. The Tories want the whole country to be able to access fast broadband, there are some rural areas where you need satellite or it crawls, but I was led to believe that the Corbyn government would pay for us all to have free broadband and put isps out of business.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'd like to wish Scotland all the best I hope they get their referendum and get away from our BJ and his lying government.


----------



## StormyThai

Every single person in Finland is able to access free fast broadband...if they want it in their homes then of course they have to pay.
The UK government *promised *to provide everyone with 2mbps by 2012 - yeah, that happened didn't it 

You were led to believe incorrectly...it was always about access and not just giving stuff away for free.


----------



## Siskin

StormyThai said:


> Every single person in Finland is able to access free fast broadband...if they want it in their homes then of course they have to pay.
> The UK government *promised *to provide everyone with 2mbps by 2012 - yeah, that happened didn't it
> 
> You were led to believe incorrectly...it was always about access and not just giving stuff away for free.


It can't be absolutely free, someone is paying for the service somewhere. So I suppose if you pay tax then you will be paying for the 'free' broadband. The only people who would get it for free are those not paying tax.


----------



## StormyThai

Of course tax is paid for goodness sake...our NHS isn't free to anyone either then...well unless they don't pay tax.

Nevermind..point lost, I'll go back to just reading.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'd like to wish Scotland all the best I hope they get their referendum and get away from our BJ and his lying government.


BoJo will not give it to them.

They pushed for this election but no matter how many seats they got Tories will not give them referendum.

Their only chance was a coalition government with SNP in.

Which again as English don't want to lose Scotland made them vote for Tories.

SNP put doubtful chance of another referendum before the chance of stopping Brexit.

This is their priority and I understand.


----------



## Elles

StormyThai said:


> Every single person in Finland is able to access free fast broadband...if they want it in their homes then of course they have to pay.
> The UK government *promised *to provide everyone with 2mbps by 2012 - yeah, that happened didn't it
> 
> You were led to believe incorrectly...it was always about access and not just giving stuff away for free.


So when a small ISP phoned in to ask a Labour MP what it meant and that it would put him out of business, the Labour MP who told him to diversify and do something else, or get a job with BT was lying?

Labour said we'd all have free internet and global companies like Amazon would pay for it.

"Free super-fast broadband for every home and business in the country by 2030"

I'm utterly confused. Free view is free tv, I expected free broadband to be the same. Have computer, connect to free internet and get free internet services, paid for by taxing the global corporations.


----------



## kimthecat

StormyThai said:


> Every single person in Finland is able to access free fast broadband...if they want it in their homes then of course they have to pay.
> The UK government *promised *to provide everyone with 2mbps by 2012 - yeah, that happened didn't it
> 
> You were led to believe incorrectly...it was always about access and not just giving stuff away for free.


Sorry I dont understand , Where would they access free broad band if not in their homes. You mean like at Libaries?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> So when a small ISP phoned in to ask a Labour MP what it meant and that it would put him out of business, the Labour MP who told him to diversify and do something else, or get a job with BT was lying?
> 
> Labour said we'd all have free internet and global companies like Amazon would pay for it.
> 
> "Free super-fast broadband for every home and business in the country by 2030"
> 
> I'm utterly confused. Free view is free tv, I expected free broadband to be the same. Have computer, connect to free internet and get free internet services, paid for by taxing the global corporations.


I just found this ,

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/broadband-universal-service-obligation

They did a consultation in 2016 .


----------



## shadowmare

kimthecat said:


> Sorry I dont understand , Where would they access free broad band if not in their homes. You mean like at Libaries?


Not necessarily. You can access it on the street, in the park etc. In Spain you can access free WiFi on a beach.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Sorry I dont understand , Where would they access free broad band if not in their homes. You mean like at Libaries?


In Finland it says libraries, schools and universities. I was sure Labour meant in our homes when that's what was reported. I linked the phone in where they were talking about it, LBC I think.

Promising to roll out faster broadband nationally, so if you want it you can get it, even in the most rural areas, I wouldn't think of as that controversial.

Promising free broadband for all, so I wouldn't have to pay for an internet connection to play my Warcraft, or watch YouTube and movies, I thought was pretty controversial, expensive and with the potential for government control, so not something I necessarily agreed with. I think there are more urgent needs.

There are hotspots all over the U.K. too and free WiFi in many areas. That's not what Labour was talking about imo. They promised free broadband to all homes and businesses, is what I read.


----------



## StormyThai

Free wifi in the UK is painfully slow...in Finland you can walk down the street access wifi and get at least 1mbps AND 96% of the country can access broadband unlike 76% (iirc) of the UK.
In the UK Internet cafes, you have to buy something and get limited time..libraries are painfully slow and you get limited time (so long as your library hasn't been shut of course)...and any hotspots take an age just to load fb.

You would have to pay for internet if you want it in your home to play online games BUT if we ran the same as Finland then you could also walk outside to search the web at your pleasure.

All of this can be checked and found out if you look beyond the daily rags


----------



## Elles

StormyThai said:


> Free wifi in the UK is painfully slow...in Finland you can walk down the street access wifi and get at least 1mbps AND 96% of the country can access broadband unlike 76% (iirc) of the UK.
> In the UK Internet cafes, you have to buy something and get limited time..libraries are painfully slow and you get limited time (so long as your library hasn't been shut of course)...and any hotspots take an age just to load fb.
> 
> You would have to pay for internet if you want it in your home to play online games BUT if we ran the same as Finland then you could also walk outside to search the web at your pleasure.
> 
> All of this can be checked and found out if you look beyond the daily rags


That's not what he said. The Guardian isn't a conservative rag. This is what they say, with a video of Corbyn actually saying it. Is this like the student thing? Many of us thought he was promising to write off current student debt and he didn't deny it until after the 2017 election. This time we thought he was promising free Internet pron browsing for all, but actually he meant sat outside in your car? 

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...yn-promises-free-broadband-under-labour-video

Have a listen, he says the fastest broadband to every home for free, instead of paying a bill every month, Labour will tax companies like Amazon. Corbyn himself is saying this in his speech.


----------



## Magyarmum

shadowmare said:


> Not necessarily. You can access it on the street, in the park etc. In Spain you can access free WiFi on a beach.


in Miskolc, my nearest city which has a population of 161 000 people, there are nearly 1500 free WiFi "hotspots".

Free WiFi as well on all the trams, trains, and buses. The local bus company has just bought 75 new environmentally friendly buses which also have free WiFi

https://minap.hu/index.php/cikk/minden-villamosmegalloban-lesz-free-wi

*ALL TRAM STOPS WILL HAVE FREE WIFI*


----------



## StormyThai

I didn't say a conservative rag did I 
Myself and many others didn't think he meant free porn or even free internet in the home....IMO most wanted to believe that is what he meant because they didn't like the person offering it and the press coverage decided to run with it.

My vote was tactical so I didn't vote for Labour but even though Mat Hancock (our mp) doesn't care about our town (Newmarket holds his interest too much) and has clearly shown that he only cares about his career he still got in because many wanted Brexit at all costs.

Our local fb pages are full of people sating that they only voted for him because of Brexit...nothing else mattered...even if free internet for all in their homes to view porn at their own leisure was on on offer (or even feasible) they would have still voted for the Tories...we had two doctors surgeries close down in the last few weeks due to a lack of doctors meaning we have ONE doctor surgery for 30000+ people with thousands of homes being built to make it worse...but Brexit 

I will relent after watching that clip a bit BUT that doesn't mean he couldn't have brought in the Finish model as a compromise IF his idea couldn't work (still don't see why it couldn't work but there ya go)...you don't get to watch porn on the free access in Finland so not sure why that was even mentioned (by anyone, not just yourself).

I'll leave it there because there is no point in going around...you believe that it wouldn't work and I don't agree.
Agree to disagree-see ya


----------



## kimthecat

StormyThai said:


> I didn't say a conservative rag did I
> Myself and many others didn't think he meant free porn or even free internet in the home....IMO most wanted to believe that is what he meant because they didn't like the person offering it and the press coverage decided to run with it.
> 
> My vote was tactical so I didn't vote for Labour but even though Mat Hancock (our mp) doesn't care about our town (Newmarket holds his interest too much) and has clearly shown that he only cares about his career he still got in because many wanted Brexit at all costs.
> 
> Our local fb pages are full of people sating that they only voted for him because of Brexit...nothing else mattered...even if free internet for all in their homes to view porn at their own leisure was on on offer (or even feasible) they would have still voted for the Tories...we had two doctors surgeries close down in the last few weeks due to a lack of doctors meaning we have ONE doctor surgery for 30000+ people with thousands of homes being built to make it worse...but Brexit
> 
> I will relent after watching that clip a bit BUT that doesn't mean he couldn't have brought in the Finish model as a compromise IF his idea couldn't work (still don't see why it couldn't work but there ya go)...you don't get to watch porn on the free access in Finland so not sure why that was even mentioned (by anyone, not just yourself).
> 
> I'll leave it there because there is no point in going around...you believe that it wouldn't work and I don't agree.
> 
> Agree to disagree-see ya


I dónt follow what is going on. Elles said Corbyn offered free wifi/broadband to everyone in their homes and she proved it .
There was no need to make a snooty reply about reading beyond rags , The Guardian certainly isnt a rag.
you said "i will relent after watching that clip. is that meant to be an apology?

@Elles Im looking forward to the day we get free wi fi outside the home . Id love to stand in the wind and rain and freezing cold to search on Google and read the posts here .


----------



## HarlequinCat

kimthecat said:


> I dónt follow what is going on. Elles said Corbyn offered free wifi to everyone in their homes and she proved it .
> There was no need to make a snooty reply about reading beyond rags , The Guardian certainly isnt a rag.
> you said "i will relent after watching that clip. is that meant to be an apology?
> 
> @Elles Im looking forward to the day we get free wi fi outside the home . Id love to stand in the wind and rain and freezing cold to search on Google and read the posts here .


I'm sure you can get free wifi in cafes and tesco and that. I used to be able to get it on the national Express too. Not too sure on how secure they are. I wouldn't log on to any accounts or online banking through them though


----------



## kimthecat

HarlequinCat said:


> I'm sure you can get free wifi in cafes and tesco and that. I used to be able to get it on the national Express too. Not too sure on how secure they are. I wouldn't log on to any accounts or online banking through them though


Actually I just remembered I can free wí fi at my hospital. i think you can get it on the London Underground but not sure .

ETA yes you can I just checked. Tube and overground.

https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/station-wifi


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I dónt follow what is going on. Elles said Corbyn offered free wifi to everyone in their homes and she proved it .
> There was no need to make a snooty reply about reading beyond rags , The Guardian certainly isnt a rag.
> you said "i will relent after watching that clip. is that meant to be an apology?
> 
> @Elles Im looking forward to the day we get free wi fi outside the home . Id love to stand in the wind and rain and freezing cold to search on Google and read the posts here .


Your welcome to come over here to find out what it's like standing outside when you're up to your knees in snow and the temperature's -10C and you can't feel your toes or fingers, they're so cold!.

I think you'd probably soon change your mind!


----------



## StormyThai

Nothing about my post was snooty...sorry if you took it that way.
The guardian is a rag, just as all newspapers are.

No my saying that I relented was not an apology because I didn't say anything I felt needed apologising for...I was taking part in a debate.

Now I remember why I never post on these threads 

I am very sorry if any of my posts offended anyone as that was not my intention


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Your welcome to come over here to find out what it's like standing outside when you're up to your knees in snow and the temperature's -10C and you can't feel your toes or fingers, they're so cold!.
> 
> I think you'd probably soon change your mind!


:Hilarious No thanks , Im a delicate flower. i wouldn't survive!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious No thanks , Im a delicate flower. i wouldn't survive!


Just noticed it was @Elles who's the glutton for punishment, not you!

Well you'll have to come over then in summer!


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Just noticed it was @Elles who's the glutton for punishment, not you!
> 
> Well you'll have to come over then in summer!


Actually I did say it . I tagged Elles so she would see it.. I was being sarcastic about having outdoor wifi.


----------



## Elles

I'm really pleased that I found out that is what he was saying, because it doesn't take much to convince me I'm getting old, losing the plot and imagined it, or was conned. 

Tax Amazon for what they sell here by all means, but address this:



StormyThai said:


> we had two doctors surgeries close down in the last few weeks due to a lack of doctors meaning we have ONE doctor surgery for 30000+ people


Don't waste the money giving billionaires free Internet access. Is it to keep Amazon etc happy? Yeah we'll pay more tax if you use the money to increase our customer base?

What next? Free iPads so everyone can access the free Internet? 

I wasn't offended.


----------



## Magyarmum

Last year my granddaughter and I went on holiday to Slovakia and Krakow in Poland and this year we spent time in Budapest before taking a coach tour to Prague.Czech Republic. It was marvellous because wherever we went we could always get WiFi and could find out whatever information we wanted just by googling!


----------



## kimthecat

I resent having to pay a fortune for a landline along with broadband . I hardly use it. To get any special offer you have to have the companies phone line.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> I resent having to pay a fortune for a landline along with broadband . I hardly use it. To get any special offer you have to have the companies phone line.


We don't have a landline. I wonder how ours works. Maybe we just don't have a special offer. I couldn't even tell you who we're with. I think I remember hubby ranting at Virgin, so maybe it's them. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Last year my granddaughter and I went on holiday to Slovakia and Krakow in Poland and this year we spent time in Budapest before taking a coach tour to Prague.Czech Republic. It was marvellous because wherever we went we could always get WiFi and could find out whatever information we wanted just by googling!


That kind of thing sounds great. I do think if I want to access it in the comfort of my own home, or in business, I should have to pay for it though. I can get WiFi at the yard, I check my mail and post on here from up there, so there must be some free stuff floating about.


----------



## Siskin

I’ve got free wifi on trains and my daughter tells me the the bus from London to here has free WiFi. A lot of pubs and cafes often have a WiFi for customers to use.
We used to have dreadful broadband here via the the telephone lines, barely anything at all, downloading something took ages. BT were given money by the government in order to upgrade various villages around Gloucestershire but decided they had run out money when they got to us, the real reason was that we were a difficult village to get a good broadband signal to every house, too hard to do apparently. Then a small company called gigaclear who’s mandate is to provide high speed fibre broadband to rural areas came along and put in fibre to the whole village and into the home for a small connection fee. Their money comes from the people who choose to use their service, you don’t have to get connected to them if you don’t want to, but it’s available should you choose to do so in the future. To lose that service which has speeds up to 1000mgs, and exchange it for one which barely creeps out of the wires but is ‘free’ is not something I would wish for especially as it would put a grand little company out of business.


----------



## Calvine

StormyThai said:


> The UK government *promised *to provide everyone with 2mbps by 2012 - yeah, that happened didn't it


 I seem to recall Blair blethering on about broadband, not sure of the details though.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I hardly use it


Never use my landline either . . . better signal on the mobile (Voda).


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> We don't have a landline. I wonder how ours works. Maybe we just don't have a special offer. I couldn't even tell you who we're with. I think I remember hubby ranting at Virgin, so maybe it's them. :Hilarious


I have to have a landline because we get no signal in the village and to use my mobile I have to walk to the top of the road. I have a 2 year contract with Magyar Telkom which costs around £34 a month, and includes telephone, internet and TV. It would be cheaper, if I didn't have lots of additional TV channels like HBO and Viasat. My mobile is also with Magyar Telkom and costs £5 a year plus "pay as you go" for calls. I only use it when I'm away from home or on holiday, but consider it essential in case of an emergency!


----------



## MilleD

StormyThai said:


> Broadband universal service, also known as "universal service obligation" or "universal broadband service" is available in:-
> Switzerland
> Finland
> Spain
> 
> Switzerland was the first country in the world to provide broadband universal service in January 2008, followed by Spain and Finland each guaranteeing 1Mbps.


Hardly worth having really...


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Don't waste the money giving billionaires free Internet access. Is it to keep Amazon etc happy? Yeah we'll pay more tax if you use the money to increase our customer base?


Bingo!!


----------



## kimthecat

Boris has promised us a new hospital to replace the crumbling one we have now. Yeah right !

last year i had a drain from my arm removed in a room that had a bucket to catch rain dripping through the ceiling. The staff are excellent but we all deserve better.
We are lucky here though , we have several hospitals and they manage to get people seen within the time limit. I saw my RA consultant on November 20th and he arranged a Dexa bone scan as Im on steroids and Im having it on the 24th December , which is just over a month.

lord hain said labour momentum were in a cocoon and not aware what was happening on the ground.
At the last election , Corbyn was hugely popular, he was trending with young people but they failed to recognise that trends dont last .
They ignored the fact that Corbyn wasnt popular , i said this every time we had labour come round , that I wouldnt vote Labour until Corbyn goes. Their faces , it was like I'd blasphemed.


----------



## JANICE199

*I wonder what people think about this. Should it happen. Boris 10 years at no. 10 ?*

*https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ge-as-johnson-eyes-decade-in-no-10-rkw86zvfr#*


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Boris has promised us a new hospital to replace the crumbling one we have now. Yeah right !
> 
> last year i had a drain from my arm removed in a room that had a bucket to catch rain dripping through the ceiling. The staff are excellent but we all deserve better.
> 
> /


We'd just like to have an A&E department that's open 24 hours


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *I wonder what people think about this. Should it happen. Boris 10 years at no. 10 ?*
> 
> *https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ge-as-johnson-eyes-decade-in-no-10-rkw86zvfr#*


Labour shot themselves in the foot so to speak. They now need time to sort themselves out and reflect on what went wrong. Test out a new leader or 2 and choose a new direction to go in. They have been leaning to far to the left and the Labour supporters who defected did not like this. It is going to take a decade to win back any trust. So perhaps the Conservatives (I won't say Boris because I will get accused of predicting things) will be another decade in power. Labour have to prove themselves now. Labour was so close to being totally annihilated in this General Election. Plus let's not forget Labour had lots of Leave supporters who felt let down by Corbyn sitting on the fence and then turning against them.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> We'd just like to have an A&E department that's open 24 hours


 How far do you have to travel to the nearest A and E when its closed. ?


----------



## Siskin

kimthecat said:


> How far do you have to travel to the nearest A and E when its closed. ?


There were plans afoot to close the A&E department at the Cheltenham hospital and send all emergencies to Gloucester. For people living on the Cotswolds there would be a distinct probability the time taken to get to Gloucester would mean less would arrive still alive. The conservative mp for Cheltenham moved heaven and earth to stop the A&E closing in Cheltenham, it's not 24 hours anymore, now 12 hours, but better then nothing. The A&E in Cirencester was closed some time ago despite locals opposing it, but then our Tory mp is next to useless. Wish we had someone like the Cheltenham mp, maybe ours will go soon now he's got his 'sir' from Teresa May.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> BoJo will not give it to them.
> 
> They pushed for this election but no matter how many seats they got Tories will not give them referendum.
> 
> Their only chance was a coalition government with SNP in.
> 
> Which again as English don't want to lose Scotland made them vote for Tories.
> 
> SNP put doubtful chance of another referendum before the chance of stopping Brexit.
> 
> This is their priority and I understand.


I think he will resist, then eventually U-turn seeing the SNP'S new found strength.

He'll utilise his friends in the media, headed by Dame Laura Kuensberg, to discredit the Independence campaign like they did in 2014.

But, giving how the Scottish people generally ignored the anti SNP campaign during the election, clearly they see Westminster control under Johnson the worse option, it'll backfire on him.

Apart from remaining in the EU ironically, another issue that won it for the "Better Together" campaign was the promise of further devolved powers for Scotland.

Johnson making threats to, "Take Back Control" of the Scottish NHS from Holyrood will not go down well!

Brexit is inevitable now unfortunately. It's opponents failed to exercise reality orientation to the masses, as also clearly evident on this forum.

At least an Independent Scotland will be able to re-join which is a first step.


----------



## Guest

Scotland will not get a second independence referendum, Boris has already rejected Sturgeon's call for one.

Under the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish Parliament cannot pass legislation on matters which are reserved for Westminster. This includes the union of the United Kingdom of Scotland and England.

Scotland only have limited devolved powers provided to them by Westminster and the United Kingdom Government.

Schedule 5 of the Scottish Act 1998 is about Reserved matters:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5

Full text of the entire Scottish Act 1998:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/contents


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> How far do you have to travel to the nearest A and E when its closed. ?


Only about 17 miles, but it's route that is frequently jammed because of accidents and roadworks on the M6.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> Scotland will not get a second independence referendum, Boris has already rejected Sturgeon's call for one.
> 
> Under the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish Parliament cannot pass legislation on matters which are reserved for Westminster. This includes the union of the United Kingdom of Scotland and England.
> 
> Scotland only have limited devolved powers provided to them by Westminster and the United Kingdom Government.
> 
> Schedule 5 of the Scottish Act 1998 is about Reserved matters:-
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5
> 
> Full text of the entire Scottish Act 1998:-
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/contents


*If, the people of Scotland agree with Sturgeon i don't think they will give in easily, if at all. I hope they fight to the end to get what they want.*


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *If, the people of Scotland agree with Sturgeon i don't think they will give in easily, if at all. I hope they fight to the end to get what they want.*


This reminds me of what happend in Catalonia when they decided to have an illegal referendum.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> This reminds me of what happend in Catelonia when they decided to have an illegal referendum.


*I'm sorry i don't know about Catelonia so i can't comment. *


----------



## Lurcherlad

Re Scottish independence:

:Singing Let ‘em go, let ‘em go! :Singing

Sick of hearing about it tbh 

Does it mean my Scottish mil gets deported?


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm sorry i don't know about Catelonia so i can't comment. *


Catalan held and illegal referendum for independence in 2017 and declared independence. The Spainish police took over Catalonia and arrested those involved in making the illegal referendum happen and they are all now in jail.

If Sturgeon plans to do the same Westminister would probably strip Scotland of all devolved powers (have an illegal referendum I mean).


----------



## Magyarmum

It's a 40 mile drive to our nearest A&E and the other side of the city from where I live so takes about an hour to get there depending on the traffic. Because it's a teaching hospital and main hospital for the county, it's on a very large campus and has several A&E's depending on what's wrong with you which is all very confusing. 

Unlike UK hospitals if you're admitted you have to bring with you, your own toilet rolls, cups, plates and cutlery and unless you enjoy dining on bread and luncheon meat you get friends and relatives to bring in meals for you. Having said that the treatment is excellent and the doctors do the rounds of the wards three times a day. Outpatients tend to be rather chaotic because there's no appointment system, it's a case of first come, first served but I've never had to wait more that 3 hours to see a consultant even though there's probably been 50 or 60 people before me in the queue. .


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

kimthecat said:


> Boris has promised us a new hospital to replace the crumbling one we have now. Yeah right !
> 
> last year i had a drain from my arm removed in a room that had a bucket to catch rain dripping through the ceiling. The staff are excellent but we all deserve better.
> We are lucky here though , we have several hospitals and they manage to get people seen within the time limit. I saw my RA consultant on November 20th and he arranged a Dexa bone scan as Im on steroids and Im having it on the 24th December , which is just over a month.
> 
> lord hain said labour momentum were in a cocoon and not aware what was happening on the ground.
> At the last election , Corbyn was hugely popular, he was trending with young people but they failed to recognise that trends dont last .
> They ignored the fact that Corbyn wasnt popular , i said this every time we had labour come round , that I wouldnt vote Labour until Corbyn goes. Their faces , it was like I'd blasphemed.


But who will Corbyn be replaced by I wonder ..


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> Catalan held and illegal referendum for independence in 2017 and declared independence. The Spainish police took over Catalonia and arrested those involved in making the illegal referendum happen and they are all now in jail.
> 
> If Sturgeon plans to do the same Westminister would probably strip Scotland of all devolved powers (have an illegal referendum I mean).


*Thank you *


----------



## Magyarmum

Lurcherlad said:


> Re Scottish independence:
> 
> :Singing Let 'em go, let 'em go! :Singing
> 
> Sick of hearing about it tbh
> 
> Does it mean my Scottish mil gets deported?


OMG I never thought of that. They can deport my French DIL if they like but please leave my Scottish one alone 'cos she's a real sweetheart!:Arghh

If Scotland does get independence will it mean if I want to visit my family in Scotland I'll have to climb over Hadrian's Wall?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...4GPajTEoO21eGKGRef4kGjrB0reUCQ&_hsmi=80785838

*Nicola Sturgeon: Indyref2 is 'democratic right of the Scottish people'*


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

Calvine said:


> I seem to recall Blair blethering on about broadband, not sure of the details though.


..


----------



## KittenKong

The Johnson Government, First 24 months:

The UK leaves the EU on 31/01/20 as planned. Johnson quickly runs into difficulty in negotiating a trade deal with the EU. This ponders on for months with the talks going nowhere.

Meanwhile, Trump is re-elected US President.

Johnson and the EU cease talks, the UK crashes out with no deal after the transition period.

Problems emerge for Johnson as food and medical supplies are rationed. Complications with the Hostile Environment policy sees many EU citizens wrongly deported including nurses and medical consultants, causing considerable staffing shortages during the winter 2020/21 period. The NHS crisis worsens with many elderly UK immigrants forced to return to the UK.

The staffing shortages forces retired British nurses under 76 to return through threats of losing their pensions should they refuse to do so.
The British Red Cross and Army also assist with the staffing crisis.

Not able to re-negotiate the countless number of trade deals that equalled what they had as an EU member, Johnson agrees to allow the US to share their trade deals with the UK in exchange for further control of the UK's affairs, effectively becoming a colony of the US under the control of the unelected in the UK US President.

Meanwhile, Trump starts a war in the Middle East. The British Army are automatically enlisted to serve under the direction of the US Army commanders without the need for a Parliamentary debate.

Further Americanisation includes changing to US Bank Holidays, including Thanksgiving Day, but Guy Fawkes night is abolished, as it's seen to be supporting a terrorist.

Speculation about Santa Claus not being British turns children against him. They refuse to enter his grotto, crying, "I don't want that horrible foreigner anywhere near me"

Johnson introduces Bojo Clause, dressed out in a Union flag outfit yet otherwise dressed similarly to Santa, with a blonde wig and clean shaven.

The children adore him.....


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> OMG
> 
> If Scotland does get independence will it mean if I want to visit my family in Scotland I'll have to climb over Hadrian's Wall?


 Bring a ladder!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Bring a ladder!


I'm afraid of heights! Would it be alright if the Schnauzer boys burrowed underneath it so I could crawl through?

They've got Hungarian passports and they're EU members


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The Johnson Government, First 24 months:
> 
> The UK leaves the EU on 31/01/20 as planned. Johnson quickly runs into difficulty in negotiating a trade deal with the EU. This ponders on for months with the talks getting nowhere.
> 
> Meanwhile, Trump is re-elected US President.
> 
> Johnson and the EU cease talks, the UK crashes out with no deal after the transition period.
> 
> Problems emerge for Johnson as food and medical supplies are rationed. Complications with the Hostile Environment policy sees many EU citizens wrongly deported including nurses and medical consultants, causing considerable staffing shortages during the winter of 2020/21 period. This is made worse with the many UK immigrants forced to return to the UK.
> 
> Not able to re-negotiate the countless number of trade deals that equalled what they had as an EU member, Johnson agrees to allow the US to share their trade deals with the UK in exchange for further control of the UK's affairs, effectively becoming a colony of the US under the control of the unelected US President.
> 
> Meanwhile, Trump starts a war in the Middle East. The British Army are automatically enlisted to serve under the direction of the US Army commanders.
> 
> Further Americanisation includes changing to US Bank Holidays, including Thanksgiving Day, but Bonfire night is abolished.
> 
> Speculation about Santa Claus not being British turns children against him. They refuse to enter his grotto, crying, "I don't want that foriegner anywhere near me"
> 
> Johnson introduces Bojo Clause, dressed out in a Union flag outfit yet otherwise dressed similarly to Santa, with a blonde wig and clean shaven.
> 
> The children love him.....


----------



## KittenKong

The Sun failing to take some responsibility for this? How typical.

Monkey chants at black players again at football matches and this....


----------



## Elles

I thought you only read the Sun because it’s on the table at work? :Bookworm


----------



## Siskin

Elles said:


> I thought you only read the Sun because it's on the table at work? :Bookworm


This will be online research for the most awful memes possible about the tories


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> I thought you only read the Sun because it's on the table at work? :Bookworm


I wouldn't even read it then.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The Sun failing to take some responsibility for this? How typical.
> 
> Monkey chants at black players again at football matches and this....
> View attachment 425630


Perhaps you should get your facts right before apportioning blame to The Sun!

In fact the incident was first reported by The Mirror 24 hours before The Sun published their article.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/yob-screams-fing-dirty-muslim-21096071

There's even an acknowledgement in The Sun to that effect!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10556149/vile-yob-screams-racist-rant-morden-tube-london/

*"The commuter, who witnessed the ugly episode, told the Daily Mirror: "I could hear him talking to staff about how his taxes paid their wages and that there should be toilets available in all tube stations."*


----------



## Dave S

KK - you have got what you wanted - SNP in power although you are a traditional Labour supporter. I do hope for your sake that Jimmy Kranky's sister gets her way and you have a vote on independence but in the meantime could you please desist from posting anti-anything-you-don't-agree-with-or-like spite and hatred as it seems you a being racists towards anyone not born in Scotland or anyone who does not agree with what you think.

Many of us here are quite happy that BJ is PM, he is not perfect but a better PM than Corbyn who was going to put up taxes and bankrupt the country. In a few years time there will be another election and we can then decide again. 
SNP does not have any representation south of the Scottish border so why not accept what you voted for and live with it - just like we are.


----------



## Satori

JANICE199 said:


> *I wonder what people think about this. Should it happen. Boris 10 years at no. 10 ?*
> 
> *https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ge-as-johnson-eyes-decade-in-no-10-rkw86zvfr#*


In respect of the fixed term parliament act being abolished, I feel utterly indifferent. It is a thoroughly discredited piece of legislation that has no practical effect. As for Boris occupying no. 10 for 10 years, I would think that to be more-or-less a certainty; one which I wholeheartedly welcome.


----------



## kimthecat

://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

We can be angry at the Tories for winning this election, but we must feel an equal rage for the people who let them do it. I am speaking of those who led the main party of opposition down a blind alley that ended in Labour's worst election performance since the 1930s - a performance that broke new records for failure. Look upon the scale of that calamity: to lose seats to a government in power for nine lean years, a government seeking a fourth term that is almost never granted, a cruel government so divided it purged two former chancellors and some of its best-known MPs, led by a documented liar and fraud. A half-functioning opposition party would have wiped the floor with this Tory party. Instead, Labour was crushed by it.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> ://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> We can be angry at the Tories for winning this election, but we must feel an equal rage for the people who let them do it. I am speaking of those who led the main party of opposition down a blind alley that ended in Labour's worst election performance since the 1930s - a performance that broke new records for failure. Look upon the scale of that calamity: to lose seats to a government in power for nine lean years, a government seeking a fourth term that is almost never granted, a cruel government so divided it purged two former chancellors and some of its best-known MPs, led by a documented liar and fraud. A half-functioning opposition party would have wiped the floor with this Tory party. Instead, Labour was crushed by it.


Except that the "nine lean years" never happened. They were actually nine years of strong economic growth, near full employment, low interest fuelled consumer boom, an explosion in the luxury goods and tech sectors, lower taxation and extraordinary wealth creation both from sme/ new business and equities / pension pots. Austerity never happened (empirical fact) and pretending that it did does not make it real. A Marxist opposition had no chance because the majority know what is good for them.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> The Johnson Government, First 24 months:
> 
> The UK leaves the EU on 31/01/20 as planned. Johnson quickly runs into difficulty in negotiating a trade deal with the EU. This ponders on for months with the talks going nowhere.
> 
> Meanwhile, Trump is re-elected US President.
> 
> Johnson and the EU cease talks, the UK crashes out with no deal after the transition period.
> 
> Problems emerge for Johnson as food and medical supplies are rationed. Complications with the Hostile Environment policy sees many EU citizens wrongly deported including nurses and medical consultants, causing considerable staffing shortages during the winter 2020/21 period. The NHS crisis worsens with many elderly UK immigrants forced to return to the UK.
> 
> The staffing shortages forces retired British nurses under 76 to return through threats of losing their pensions should they refuse to do so.
> The British Red Cross and Army also assist with the staffing crisis.
> 
> Not able to re-negotiate the countless number of trade deals that equalled what they had as an EU member, Johnson agrees to allow the US to share their trade deals with the UK in exchange for further control of the UK's affairs, effectively becoming a colony of the US under the control of the unelected in the UK US President.
> 
> Meanwhile, Trump starts a war in the Middle East. The British Army are automatically enlisted to serve under the direction of the US Army commanders without the need for a Parliamentary debate.
> 
> Further Americanisation includes changing to US Bank Holidays, including Thanksgiving Day, but Guy Fawkes night is abolished, as it's seen to be supporting a terrorist.
> 
> Speculation about Santa Claus not being British turns children against him. They refuse to enter his grotto, crying, "I don't want that horrible foreigner anywhere near me"
> 
> Johnson introduces Bojo Clause, dressed out in a Union flag outfit yet otherwise dressed similarly to Santa, with a blonde wig and clean shaven.
> 
> The children adore him.....


Nurse! He's escaped again . . . not sure what he's taking, but he's hallucinating


----------



## Guest

At least we all know which direction the United Kingdom is going in (Including Scotland as Scotland is a member of the United Kingdom). I wish the United Kingdom the best of luck with their future outside of the European Union.


----------



## kimthecat

Satori said:


> Except that the "nine lean years" never happened. They were actually nine years of strong economic growth, near full employment, low interest fuelled consumer boom, an explosion in the luxury goods and tech sectors, lower taxation and extraordinary wealth creation both from sme/ new business and equities / pension pots. Austerity never happened (empirical fact) and pretending that it did does not make it real. A Marxist opposition had no chance because the majority know what is good for them.


Ok but that wasn't my point for posting .


----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> Ok but that wasn't my point for posting .


I knew that. Should have been more careful in responding, sorry. Was grumping at the Guardian, not at you.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> ://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> We can be angry at the Tories for winning this election, but we must feel an equal rage for the people who let them do it. I am speaking of those who led the main party of opposition down a blind alley that ended in Labour's worst election performance since the 1930s - a performance that broke new records for failure. Look upon the scale of that calamity: to lose seats to a government in power for nine lean years, a government seeking a fourth term that is almost never granted, a cruel government so divided it purged two former chancellors and some of its best-known MPs, led by a documented liar and fraud. A half-functioning opposition party would have wiped the floor with this Tory party. Instead, Labour was crushed by it.


Exactly! The Tories are painted as evil, greedy capitalists, plunging all but the very rich into abject poverty, putting no money into a NHS that they intend to sell and forcing us all to Brexit, so they can sell us to America. And still Corbyn couldn't win. :Greedy He couldn't even beat Theresa May after Grenfell.


----------



## Elles

Satori said:


> In respect of the fixed term parliament act being abolished, I feel utterly indifferent. It is a thoroughly discredited piece of legislation that has no practical effect. As for Boris occupying no. 10 for 10 years, I would think that to be more-or-less a certainty; one which I wholeheartedly welcome.


I bet he doesn't give 15 year olds the vote.


----------



## kimthecat

Satori said:


> I knew that. Should have been more careful in responding, sorry. Was grumping at the Guardian, not at you.


Thats ok


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm sorry i don't know about Catelonia so i can't comment. *


Violence, arrests, Catalon ministers imprisoned? Voters beaten by police, women dragged by their hair...

Frankist show of power, somehow difficult to imagine England choosing to go this way.

Scots will sit and wait how this Brexit is shaping up.

If it goes miserably wrong they might want to go and then just like in Spain to divert public opinion they might go any length...

Extreme right ( or extreme left) are capable of anything.


----------



## KittenKong

I'm disturbed at the suggestion that the new Labour leader _must _be a woman.

Surely, competence and ability must take priority of gender.

"Positive discrimination" with the Lib Dems backing Swinson worked well didn't it. I've seen several posts from Lib Dems regretting voting for her.

This would most certainly be bad news should it happen...


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I thought you only read the Sun because it's on the table at work? :Bookworm


What I find most disturbing is seeing jokey posts about me sharing something from The Sun, (I later learned the Mirror also covered it), yet, unless I've missed something, no disgust shown over the incident in question.


----------



## KittenKong

Dave S said:


> KK - you have got what you wanted - SNP in power although you are a traditional Labour supporter. I do hope for your sake that Jimmy Kranky's sister gets her way and you have a vote on independence but in the meantime could you please desist from posting anti-anything-you-don't-agree-with-or-like spite and hatred as it seems you a being racists towards anyone not born in Scotland or anyone who does not agree with what you think.
> 
> Many of us here are quite happy that BJ is PM, he is not perfect but a better PM than Corbyn who was going to put up taxes and bankrupt the country. In a few years time there will be another election and we can then decide again.
> SNP does not have any representation south of the Scottish border so why not accept what you voted for and live with it - just like we are.


You've got that wrong. I am _not _a traditional Labour supporter, far from it. I don't do tribal politics nowadays, unless it's the SNP, but I'm unable to vote for them where I live unfortunately.

So, for purely tactical reasons, I voted Labour, who were best placed to defeat the Tory candidate where I live. It was vunerable to falling for to the Tories like the adjacent constituencies did, but Labour won.

Sadly, the leaderships of the Lib Dems and Labour remained tribal, as they did in 1987.

I challenged tribal voting on social media which resulted in criticism from both tribal Lib Dems and Labour supporters. Someone on the former accused me of being a "Corbynist fake Remainer" while the suggestion of me voting Lib Dems if appropriate resulted in me being called a, "Yellow Tory"!

I pointed out with their behaviour, they'll allow a Johnson majority government, that prediction turned out to be correct.

It's worth pointing out, at the time Thatcher won her majority in 1987, her population was dwindling, especially with the Poll Tax in the manifesto.

Both the SDP/Liberal Alliance (as it was) and Labour believed they could win outright, splitting the anti Tory vote by competing with each other.

As they did in 2019.

The moral to this is to say Johnson winning a majority doesn't suddenly make him popular and loved across the nation.

As with Thatcher, his unpopularity will accelerate once he lets many of his supporters down.


----------



## Guest

Some people don't like to hear that the United Kingdom had more leave voters than originally thought (even though leave voters won both polls). The elections are over like the referendum and both results now point to one thing. More people want in the United Kingdom to leave the European Union than remain in the European Union. This was all miscalculated by people that want to remain.

Both democratic votes are over with now. Time to move on.

I personally wish the United Kingdom all the best in its future outside the European Union.

This post is in no way putting either side of this debate down or is intended to.

This is in my opinion the beginning of a new future the United Kingdom wants to build by itself.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I'm disturbed at the suggestion that the new Labour leader _must _be a woman.


It could still be a man, he'll just have to self identify as a woman.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> What I find most disturbing is seeing jokey posts about me sharing something from The Sun, (I later learned the Mirror also covered it), yet, unless I've missed something, no disgust shown over the incident in question.


Because it's obvious? If we all shared every violent act by every drunken thug, there'd be no space for anything else. He's a drunken thug attacking someone, their gender/race shouldn't matter, he needs arresting and obviously people on petforums are sickened by it. I'm beginning to think that there should be no 'hate crime'. If some Neanderthal attacks and intimidates someone whether physically, or verbally they should be prosecuted regardless of who they attack, or what they say. We all bleed and hurt.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Labour should choose the best person for the job - not a token woman just to tick a box.

I don’t like positive discrimination any more than discrimination tbh.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lurcherlad said:


> Labour should choose the best person for the job - not a token woman just to tick a box.
> 
> I don't like positive discrimination any more than discrimination tbh.


It should be a Jewish woman.

With GCSE in Maths and a clean driving license.

Candidates please apply , ready to start immediately.


----------



## Guest

Labour need to pick a leader that is going to change the party, male or female as the Labour party are currently to far left. If Boris does not move to secure the center ground the new Labour leader needs to do this. It will still take sometime for people to have their confidence won back by the Labour party. The damage is done. I still think the Conservatives will be in power for at least the next decade for the reasons previously explained.


----------



## Dave S

KittenKong said:


> You've got that wrong.* I am not a traditional Labour supporter*, far from it. I don't do tribal politics nowadays, unless it's the SNP, but I'm unable to vote for them where I live unfortunately.


When did that change then -


----------



## Guest

If anyone is wondering how things got reported in the Dutch press nos.nl a major news agency reported this:-

*The Conservatives have won, what does that mean for the Brexit?*

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has achieved an absolute majority in the British elections . Now that this is over, the brexit is again under a magnifying glass. The big question for politicians is how things should go in that headache file.

The short answer is that with this election result, brexit has become a lot clearer. Johnson has the mandate that he needs to sign the divorce papers, said correspondent Suse van Kleef this morning in the _NOS Radio 1 Journal_ .

"The Brexit will continue as usual. The British will almost certainly leave the European Union on 31 January. That means that the deadlock in the British parliament will be over," says Van Kleef. "It means the end of a period in which nothing could actually be done."

With the convincing majority that Johnson achieved , he can govern comfortably. Johnson already has an agreement with the European Union, but it still has to pass through the British Parliament. He wants to present the Brexit deal to the new Lagerhuis within a week. Van Kleef: "I don't foresee any problems with that."

*Long process*

After January 31 it is time for 'phase 2'. Then negotiations begin on the future relationship between the British and the EU, and the trade agreement is discussed. After the Brexit, Great Britain must conclude a trade agreement with the EU before 31 December next year. If that fails, 'a hard brexit' will follow. Then the British step out of the internal market, the customs union (free transport of goods) and the European Court of Justice. The boundaries really close.

That is a scenario that the British want to prevent. December 31 seems far away, but 11 months before concluding a huge trade agreement is short. In practice, time is even more urgent. At the end of June, the British must let them know if they think they will have a deal before the end of the year. That is the point at which the UK must decide whether to extend the transition period by one or two years.

The election results now provide more clarity about the Brexit, but the process that has been going on for years is therefore not over yet. "Phase 2 is still too complicated for that," says Van Kleef.

You can read the same article here:-
https://nos.nl/artikel/2314531-de-c...gewonnen-wat-betekent-dat-voor-de-brexit.html (The news on this link does translate into English on google )

Also DutchNews.nl says this:-
*British election results mean we can 'now get on with Brexit' says Dutch PM*

Boris Johnson's massive win in the UK general election means that the Brexit process can now be accelerated, which is something 'everyone has been waiting for,' Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte said on Thursday evening. Rutte, speaking to reporters on the fringes of an EU leaders' summit in Brussels, was reacting to the BBC exit poll giving the Conservatives a majority in parliament. Asked if he was relieved or saddened by the result, Rutte said: 'Neither. It was more taking note of the fact that this can help with developments. 'I think that everyone will consider this good news, because at a certain point you need progress. Otherwise it [Brexit] will continue to keep us busy for years to come,' Rutte said. Johnson's victory means Britain will now leave the EU on January 31, and then start work on trade talks with the EU. European leaders will discuss how to proceed with that trade treaty later on Friday. On Thursday, Dutch foreign minister Stef Blok told journalists that the Dutch will be most affected by Europe. 'Johnson's desire to complete a trade negotiation with the EU is highly ambitious,' he said. Asked about his role in the negotiations, Blok said: 'I will always promote the interests of the Dutch consumer and of Dutch companies.' Cost Experts say the impact of Brexit on the Netherlands will be larger than in many other countries because of the close trading links between the two. The International Monetary Fund said last July that should Britain pull out of the EU without any fixed trade deal in place, Dutch national income would fall by 0.7%. While Johnson has agreed a deal with the EU, it still has to be voted on in the British parliament, although that is expected to be a formality. At the end of 2018, there were 88,390 people with British nationality living in the Netherlands, of whom 49,358 were first generation immigrants, the CBS said. Most of the second generation British nationals had just one British parent.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...-we-can-now-get-on-with-brexit-says-dutch-pm/

NRC.nl says this:-
*Corbyn also lacks self-criticism after the loss of Labor*
Labor After the thunderous loss of Thursday, a battle of directions has broken out within Labor. While many Social Democrats demand the immediate departure of Jeremy Corbyn, the party leader himself blames Boris Johnson and the media.

The contrast could not be greater this weekend. While Labor politicians argued in public about last Thursday's heavy election defeat, Prime Minister Boris Johnson traveled to the Northern English county of Durham to make up the loss. Sedgefield in Durham is Tony Blair's old constituency, whose lower house seat fell into the hands of his Conservatives on Thursday - such as more districts in the north and Midlands.

To complete the humiliation, Johnson modeled his speech for party volunteers at the Sedgefield cricket club to that of Blair, who in a conference speech in 1997 presented himself as a freshly elected prime minister as "servant of the people." Johnsons literally took that promise and said he would do everything he could to not shame his trust .

The rest of the article can be read here (I hope it is in English. If not use Google):-

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/12/1...ontbreekt-het-corbyn-aan-zelfkritiek-a3983893


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> What I find most disturbing is seeing jokey posts about me sharing something from The Sun, (I later learned the Mirror also covered it), yet, unless I've missed something, no disgust shown over the incident in question.


No you didn't miss anything apart from the point I was making, which was to correct the remark you made which was erroneous

*"The Sun failing to take some responsibility for this? How typical".
*
And my reply to your post wasn't "jokey" I was dead serious. You really should check your facts before posting!


----------



## KittenKong

Going through my junk E-mails I found one sent from Jo Swinson urging me to vote Lib Dems which, as I said earlier, would have been a wasted vote where I live that would only assist the Tories.

It was on the subject of believing the Lib Dems were on course to win the GE.

It ended, "Jo Swinson, _Deputy _Leader of the Liberal Democrats".

Couldn't even get that right!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Going through my junk E-mails I found one sent from Jo Swinson urging me to vote Lib Dems which, as I said earlier, would have been a wasted vote where I live that would only assist the Tories.
> 
> It was on the subject of believing the Lib Dems were on course to win the GE.
> 
> It ended, "Jo Swinson, _Deputy _Leader of the Liberal Democrats".
> 
> Couldn't even get that right!


But but but but ................ It all depends when you received the junk email.

She was only elected as leader of the Lib Dems in, I believe, in July 2019.

Up to that point she had been Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats.

*Check your facts! *

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Liberal_Democrats_deputy_leadership_election

*2019 Liberal Democrats deputy leadership election*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> But but but but ................ It all depends when you received the junk email.
> 
> She was only elected as leader of the Lib Dems in, I believe, in July 2019.
> 
> Up to that point she had been Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats.
> 
> *Check your facts! *
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Liberal_Democrats_deputy_leadership_election
> 
> *2019 Liberal Democrats deputy leadership election*


I think that is the point he is making. If it was the run-up to the election *2019*, as KK says, very odd indeed. But I did post here that the LibDems were sending election leaflets (with her mugshot) within a couple of days of GE being declared; I never saw anything so fast - I didn't think they had had time to organise, print and deliver them, but they did. The others sent nothing until the week of the election.


----------



## Dave S

KittenKong said:


> _Deputy _Leader of the Liberal Democrats".


and now she is Deputy Leader of the Unemployed.

What was the date of the email?


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I think that is the point he is making. If it was the run-up to the election *2019*, as KK says, very odd indeed. But I did post here that the LibDems were sending election leaflets (with her mugshot) within a couple of days of GE being declared; I never saw anything so fast - I didn't think they had had time to organise, print and deliver them, but they did. The others sent nothing until the week of the election.


He's talking about clearing out old emails not leaflets!

To quote ...........

"Going through my junk E-mails I found one sent from Jo Swinson urging me to vote Lib Dems"


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> He's talking about clearing out old emails not leaflets!
> 
> To quote ...........
> 
> "Going through my junk E-mails I found one sent from Jo Swinson urging me to vote Lib Dems"


Yes, I get that; maybe he hangs on to the old ones . . . I treat them as junk and delete them asap to be honest! Was just talking about LibDems' pre-election (2019) canvassing. I got emails from them as well as the leaflets, but no longer have either (I tend to delete the emails the same day).


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> What I find most disturbing is seeing jokey posts about me sharing something from The Sun, (I later learned the Mirror also covered it), yet, unless I've missed something, no disgust shown over the incident in question.


Perhaps because it has nothing to do with the thread title?


----------



## Elles

Iain Duncan Smith.

“I think this was the nastiest, foulest campaign that I've ever seen fought in my 27 years in Parliament.

We had death threats, we had threats of violence, I had women, female workers chased down the street by carloads of Labour badge-wearing young men, screaming that they're going to smash their face and deal with them.

We had graffiti all over our office, we had a dead rat dismembered rat that came through the mail, which obviously they were hoping somebody would open.

The police had to be called in. We had all this vile abuse on the social media, which was threats of burning the building down, sorting people out, worse to come. I mean, it was astonishing, actually.”


----------



## kimthecat

:Woot Its due to idiots like this that people were put off voting Labour. The Tweets I read on twitter on voting day were similar . Vote or tactical vote for labour or you're an idiot , etc etc 

Richard
@Richardmassey82
·
Dec 15
I want to send a xmas message out to the 14 million people who voted Tory and Brexit Party **** you, **** all of you. You have made a generation of people poorer and you have taken away your own rights as well as ours. Enjoy your fish and blue passport you thick mother******s


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> :Woot Its due to idiots like this that people were put off voting Labour. The Tweets I read on twitter on voting day were similar . Vote or tactical vote for labour or you're an idiot , etc etc
> 
> Richard
> @Richardmassey82
> ·
> Dec 15
> I want to send a xmas message out to the 14 million people who voted Tory and Brexit Party **** you, **** all of you. You have made a generation of people poorer and you have taken away your own rights as well as ours. Enjoy your fish and blue passport you thick mother******s


I don't where I'm getting this impression, but I think he might be a little miffed.

Just an inkling there. Perhaps it's just me......


----------



## Dave S

kimthecat said:


> I want to send a xmas message out to the 14 million people who voted Tory and Brexit Party **** you, **** all of you. You have made a generation of people poorer and you have taken away your own rights as well as ours. Enjoy your fish and blue passport you thick mother******s


Obviously money spent on education has been wasted on these people.
I bet these also claim benefits - money that you and I have or might have, paid taxes.


----------



## Dave S

Apologies to Kimthecat as it looks like I have quoted something she has said in wishing you all a merry Christmas.

Sorry Kim. :Angelic


----------



## Siskin

Elles said:


> Iain Duncan Smith.
> 
> "I think this was the nastiest, foulest campaign that I've ever seen fought in my 27 years in Parliament.
> 
> We had death threats, we had threats of violence, I had women, female workers chased down the street by carloads of Labour badge-wearing young men, screaming that they're going to smash their face and deal with them.
> 
> We had graffiti all over our office, we had a dead rat dismembered rat that came through the mail, which obviously they were hoping somebody would open.
> 
> The police had to be called in. We had all this vile abuse on the social media, which was threats of burning the building down, sorting people out, worse to come. I mean, it was astonishing, actually."





kimthecat said:


> :Woot Its due to idiots like this that people were put off voting Labour. The Tweets I read on twitter on voting day were similar . Vote or tactical vote for labour or you're an idiot , etc etc
> 
> Richard
> @Richardmassey82
> ·
> Dec 15
> I want to send a xmas message out to the 14 million people who voted Tory and Brexit Party **** you, **** all of you. You have made a generation of people poorer and you have taken away your own rights as well as ours. Enjoy your fish and blue passport you thick mother******s


Ive been horrified by what's been going on with these thugs who seem to think it's perfectly normal to behave in this manner and then they wonder why people didn't vote for them. As Dave S says, eduction has been wasted on them. If they hate the current system of government here so much why don't they go and live where the government is as they want, actually I think I know the answer to that one


----------



## Dave S

Could it not be true also that this sort of behaviour has been encouraged by the attitude and behaviour of our Parliamentary representatives after all this was one of the dirtiest political times that I can remember with all the back stabbing and insults.

It is no surprise to me that there is this sort of attitude.

ALSO - did I hear it right that JC has apologised for causing Labour the biggest losing margin for many years, however he cannot utter forth an apology for anti-Semitism within his party. Strange that.


----------



## kimthecat

Dave S said:


> Obviously money spent on education has been wasted on these people.
> I bet these also claim benefits - money that you and I have or might have, paid taxes.


TBF It's usually those who claim to speak on behalf of those less well off who write these posts . Ive been in employment but have also
claimed various benefits over the years and they dont speak on my behalf.



Dave S said:


> Apologies to Kimthecat as it looks like I have quoted something she has said in wishing you all a merry Christmas.
> 
> Sorry Kim. :Angelic


No worries


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/1...actTarget&utm_campaign=3920113-M_MW_EM_161219

*Election 2019: what a Conservative government will mean for your money*


----------



## Snoringbear

All looks a bit done and dusted to me. Conservatives in power and Brexit going ahead. Both things personally I didn’t want to happen. However, I’m trying to look at things in a more positive manner. At a simple level we’ve done away with a hung parliament, which I thought would be a likely outcome. The Conservatives may well stay true their promise and reinvigorate the areas they’ve neglected. Labour will hopefully reform and present a more appealing way of moving forwards. I’d rather we get rid of first past the post and go for more proportional representation. Brexit will be a soft version in its first implementation, after the transition period that may change.


----------



## MilleD

Snoringbear said:


> All looks a bit done and dusted to me. Conservatives in power and Brexit going ahead. Both things personally I didn't want to happen. However, I'm trying to look at things in a more positive manner. At a simple level we've done away with a hung parliament, which I thought would be a likely outcome. The Conservatives may well stay true their promise and reinvigorate the areas they've neglected. Labour will hopefully reform and present a more appealing way of moving forwards. I'd rather we get rid of first past the post and go for more proportional representation. Brexit will be a soft version in its first implementation, after the transition period that may change.


That's a pretty reasoned approach to the result when you were really hoping for something different.

Much better than running around with your arms in the air screaming "we're all going to die" which some folks seem to prefer.


----------



## kimthecat

I hope the Tories will keep those promises.


----------



## Dave S

Lets be honest, there is probably a long list of the excuses they will use over the next few years about why they cannot do this or that.
I would prefer them to address the NHS problems and other more important things as well as stopping HS2 destroying the countryside.


----------



## Elles

They’ve doxed Mahyer Tousi and he’s getting abusive phone calls.  

It just goes to show, that however the left try to plead innocence, peace and love, idiots are idiots and they’re everywhere.


----------



## kimthecat

Dave S said:


> Lets be honest, there is probably a long list of the excuses they will use over the next few years about why they cannot do this or that.
> I would prefer them to address the NHS problems and other more important things as well as stopping HS2 destroying the countryside.


Me too. HS2 affects our Borough too.


----------



## Siskin

I hope HS2 gets dumped too, it's totally out of control cost wise and it has devestated people who had to sell their family houses and move away from a place they love. I was reading something recently that a lot more land and houses will get bought up which is supposed to be for storage facilities along the route during the building of the line. The whole thing has just become a giant white elephant that few really want. The money saved would go along way to putting the NHS back on its feet


----------



## cheekyscrip

Boris promised nothing but Brexit.
Said nothing about the price of that.

You will get Brexit.

If I were you I would really consider good pension scheme.


----------



## westie~ma

Not voted on the poll. 

In the end I voted for Steven Kinnock who is Labour. My ballot paper arrived and the conservative was registered to a London address, clearly didn't think they'd win and couldn't be bothered to move here or even rent a house to be plausible. 

We've moved so our constituency comes under Kinnock who is not a Corbynista and is far more vocal than others in our area in talking sensible Labour not Momentum moneytree shaking.


----------



## gskinner123

Dave S said:


> KK - you have got what you want. I do hope for your sake that Jimmy Kranky's sister gets her way and you have a vote on independence but in the meantime could you please desist from posting anti-anything-you-don't-agree-with-or-like
> 
> Many of us here are quite happy that BJ is PM


Really? Do you really think its OK to suggest that a member not post just because you don't like what they're saying?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> They've doxed Mahyer Tousi and he's getting abusive phone calls.
> 
> It just goes to show, that however the left try to plead innocence, peace and love, idiots are idiots and they're everywhere.


What does doxed mean ?


----------



## HarlequinCat

kimthecat said:


> What does doxed mean ?


Think its having your info made public by someone. Like their phone number or address


----------



## kimthecat

HarlequinCat said:


> Think its having your info made public by someone. Like their phone number or address


Thats awful and dangerous.


----------



## KittenKong

gskinner123 said:


> Really? Do you really think its OK to suggest that a member not post just because you don't like what they're saying?


Many have been saying that to me for over three years now.

I won't shut up if people don't like or agree with what I say.

I suggest if people dislike my posts they should utilise the Ignore button.

That's what it's there for.


----------



## shadowmare

just remembered this from last week... guess how his constituency voted? :Hilarious


----------



## Snoringbear

MilleD said:


> That's a pretty reasoned approach to the result when you were really hoping for something different.
> 
> Much better than running around with your arms in the air screaming "we're all going to die" which some folks seem to prefer.


Thanks. There does come a point when you have to accept the majority decision and move on. And I'm happy to do that. Much as I dislike the prospect of leaving the EU and having a Conservative government I'm somewhat in the minority now. But that's where we've ended, so I'll keep quiet for the next few years before I can vote again


----------



## Dave S

gskinner123 said:


> Really? Do you really think its OK to suggest that a member not post just because you don't like what they're saying?


I really don't mind what people post, whether they agree with me or not but the content and context of many of the members postings verge on insulting. This is particularly so when it is just copied and pasted from newspapers or from the internet without checking any facts but seemingly posted as it agrees with his own views which involves bad press against anyone who does not support Labour, Jeremy Corbyn, SNP or Nicola Sturgeon.

He has previously stated in a thread that he is a "traditional Labour supporter" but now says he has never been, fervently supports SNP and an independent Scotland and has given the impression through his postings that he lives in the heartland of SNP but has also said recently that he was unable to vote for SNP where he lives so presumably not in Scotland. Relook at post 1147.

I don't mind reasoned discussion but it is difficult to have a discussion with someone who is so determined to impose his views on others, where he believes everyone but he is wrong.

I have also asked several direct questions to try gain some more knowledge but so far there has been no response so I presume either I am on his ignore list or he has not got an answer. I do hope that he is not banned though (he did suggest that before he edited his latest post - no. 1179 - "I won't be silenced, unless the moderators decide to Bann me! - (his spelling not mine).

I feel sure that there are many contributors to this thread, and the Brexit thread who possibly feel the same as I do.


----------



## gskinner123

Dave S said:


> I really don't mind what people post, whether they agree with me or not but the content and context of many of the members postings verge on insulting. This is particularly so when it is just copied and pasted from newspapers or from the internet without checking any facts but seemingly posted as it agrees with his own views which involves bad press against anyone who does not support Labour, Jeremy Corbyn, SNP or Nicola Sturgeon.
> 
> He has previously stated in a thread that he is a "traditional Labour supporter" but now says he has never been, fervently supports SNP and an independent Scotland and has given the impression through his postings that he lives in the heartland of SNP but has also said recently that he was unable to vote for SNP where he lives so presumably not in Scotland. Relook at post 1147.
> 
> I don't mind reasoned discussion but it is difficult to have a discussion with someone who is so determined to impose his views on others, where he believes everyone but he is wrong.
> 
> I have also asked several direct questions to try gain some more knowledge but so far there has been no response so I presume either I am on his ignore list or he has not got an answer. I do hope that he is not banned though (he did suggest that before he edited his latest post - no. 1179 - "I won't be silenced, unless the moderators decide to Bann me! - (his spelling not mine).
> 
> I feel sure that there are many contributors to this thread, and the Brexit thread who possibly feel the same as I do.


I read these threads with interest but rarely post. I suppose my threshold for feeling insulted is different than yours, which is perfectly natural of course.

I don't wish to argue but you start with that you don't mind what people post and then supply a list of what you do not like about the member's posts.. it may be frustrating for you, his/her style of posting and its content; probably best to put on ignore..


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Thanks. There does come a point when you have to accept the majority decision and move on. And I'm happy to do that. Much as I dislike the prospect of leaving the EU and having a Conservative government I'm somewhat in the minority now. But that's where we've ended, so I'll keep quiet for the next few years before I can vote again


Im not happy with the way Boris made the GE about Brexit . I bet a lot of people voted for the Conservatives not because of Brexit but because they didn't want a Marxist Labour with Corbyn as PM . I hope he does keep his promises ,but I'm not banking on it , he's done nothing for his constituents except use us as a springboard to power.


----------



## kimthecat

gskinner123 said:


> I read these threads with interest but rarely post. I suppose my threshold for feeling insulted is different than yours, which is perfectly natural of course.
> 
> I don't wish to argue but you start with that you don't mind what people post and then supply a list of what you do not like about the member's posts.. it may be frustrating for you, his/her style of posting and its content; probably best to put on ignore..


Yes , the ignore button is a useful tool but KK wants to get his message over and inform people , how will it help if people have him on ignore? 
Wouldn't it be better if he used the feedback to help him make posts that people will actually read and not scroll past , he can actually write sensible and informative posts when he wants to.


----------



## Elles

I think it’s ok to make suggestions. I hadn’t noticed KK’s posts were images not text and KK himself said he didn’t realise how they were seen on other’s screens. I also think it’s ok to tell someone you don’t like their posts and pull them up on mistakes. I don’t think it’s right to stop people posting (unless it’s inciting violence, or not in the spirit of the forum) we can use the ignore button. I’ve had 3 or maybe 4 people on ignore at times. It can make it a bit disjointed sometimes, but it was better than scrolling past pages of stuff I wasn’t interested in. 

I too am hoping Boris improves matters now he actually is in charge and more able to do as he sees fit. I think a lot of people rated him when he was mayor.

I would guess too that some voted for him because of his faux pas rather than despite them. :Bag Many I know are getting tired of the thought police, the virtue signalling and the SJWs. It’s easy to concern yourself with protesting and political correctness when you have nothing else to worry about, but I know I thought it off putting and unLabourlike, so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the northern working classes thought similar. 

When hardworking white working-class Labour voters and their kids donate what little they can to comic relief and buy red noses, I doubt they’re impressed with Labour politicians in London accusing them of being white saviours, privileged, tribal and colonial. When they’ve quite finished calling people stupid and racist, regardless of their actual race, for voting for Brexit.  

I think Labour will try to find themselves a Northern woman as leader next, if Momentum approve of any.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Snoringbear said:


> Thanks. There does come a point when you have to accept the majority decision and move on. And I'm happy to do that. Much as I dislike the prospect of leaving the EU and having a Conservative government I'm somewhat in the minority now. But that's where we've ended, so I'll keep quiet for the next few years before I can vote again


I'm feel the same, the idea of leaving the EU and having to tory government fills me with dread, but I'll just have to sit back and hope things won't be as bad as I feel it will be.


----------



## Guest

Corbyn despite his defeat plans to stay as leader of the Labour Party until March 2020. How would that happen if a new leader is elected before March 2020 or is this how long it will take to elect a new Labour leader?


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Corbyn despite his defeat plans to stay as leader of the Labour Party until March 2020. How would that happen if a new leader is elected before March 2020 or is this how long it will take to elect a new Labour leader?


On the news they were saying it could take up to 12 weeks, as all members of the Labour Party can vote.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> On the news they were saying it could take up to 12 weeks, as all members of the Labour Party can vote.


Is that what went wrong the last time?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I hope the Tories will keep those promises.


Me too, tho' I won't be holding my breath.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> On the news they were saying it could take up to 12 weeks, as all members of the Labour Party can vote.


Anyone can join the labour party to vote in the leadership election .
Its £4.30 a month. Discount for students and pensioners.

If I remember correctly but I might be wrong, that last time you could vote as a labour member and also another vote if you were a member of Unite union.


----------



## Siskin

kimthecat said:


> Anyone can join the labour party to vote in the leadership election .
> Its £4.30 a month. Discount for students and pensioners.
> 
> If I remember correctly but I might be wrong, that last time you could vote as a labour member and also another vote if you were a member of Unite union.


So some could have two votes? That doesn't seem right. Do you have to be a member for a certain amount of time before being able to vote for a leader? 
Interestingly my husband joined the Conservative party so that he could vote against Boris in the Tory leadership contest a few months ago, unfortunately he couldn't vote in the end as you had to be a member for 3 months before being able to vote.


----------



## kimthecat

Siskin said:


> So some could have two votes? That doesn't seem right. Do you have to be a member for a certain amount of time before being able to vote for a leader?
> Interestingly my husband joined the Conservative party so that he could vote against Boris in the Tory leadership contest a few months ago, unfortunately he couldn't vote in the end as you had to be a member for 3 months before being able to vote.


I dont think you have to be a member for a certain time but cant swear to that. A lot of new memberships were false last time .
ETA ( looks like they changed the rules after last time . 6 months before you can vote unless you pay 25 pounds. )
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-labour-party-members-barred-8408288


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/21/ned-the-cat-votes-corbyn-labour-leader-llamas
Journalists have been registering their pets as Labour supporters to see how easy it is for outsiders to infiltrate the party's drawn-out leadership election.

Ned, the three-year-old pet tabby cat of a Buzzfeed journalist, has been a party supporter since early this month. The cat has since been sent a ballot paper and was able to cast his vote in the four-way contest for leadership of the party even though he is not registered to vote in local or general elections.


----------



## Siskin

kimthecat said:


> I dont think you have to be a member for a certain time but cant swear to that. A lot of new memberships were false last time .
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/21/ned-the-cat-votes-corbyn-labour-leader-llamas
> Journalists have been registering their pets as Labour supporters to see how easy it is for outsiders to infiltrate the party's drawn-out leadership election.
> 
> Ned, the three-year-old pet tabby cat of a Buzzfeed journalist, has been a party supporter since early this month. The cat has since been sent a ballot paper and was able to cast his vote in the four-way contest for leadership of the party even though he is not registered to vote in local or general elections.


So I assume Neds paw was held as he put his cross on the ballot paper. Naughty naughty, whatever happened to being able to vote in secret


----------



## kimthecat

Siskin said:


> So I assume Neds paw was held as he put his cross on the ballot paper. Naughty naughty, whatever happened to being able to vote in secret


:Hilarious Sorry I added a bit to that post after I googled.ETA ( looks like they changed the rules after last time . 6 months before you can vote unless you pay 25 pounds. )
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-labour-party-members-barred-8408288

Hmm is it worth £25 pounds ? I was thinking of joining so I could vote.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Yes , the ignore button is a useful tool but KK wants to get his message over and inform people , how will it help if people have him on ignore?
> Wouldn't it be better if he used the feedback to help him make posts that people will actually read and not scroll past , he can actually write sensible and informative posts when he wants to.


That's very kind of you Kim. I was quite choked with emotion reading that, seeing we ourselves have disagreed often enough in the past.

Thank you very much.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Anyone can join the labour party to vote in the leadership election .
> Its £4.30 a month. Discount for students and pensioners.
> 
> If I remember correctly but I might be wrong, that last time you could vote as a labour member and also another vote if you were a member of Unite union.


My heart sank on reading that, but seeing the party were infiltrated by opponents joining just to elect Corbyn the last time I can visualise a similar thing happening.


----------



## Siskin

KittenKong said:


> My heart sank on reading that, but seeing the party were infiltrated by opponents joining just to elect Corbyn the last time I can visualise a similar thing happening.


I suspect this is the only thing we will be in agreement over, I too fear that the rabble will just vote to continue what suits them and not the rest of the country. I would rather have an effective opposition party in parliament then a government with such a large majority that they can do exactly what they like with no other party able to stop them. Unfortunately this could happen in five years time unless the Labour Party doesn't sort itself out.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*
*Who are you blaming for Labour's loss?*
17th December 2019








*LABOUR suffered their worst electoral loss since 1987 last week, and logically it must be someone's fault. Who are you blaming? *

*The electorate*

When offered a clear choice between the most promise-filled manifesto ever written and a charlatan who offered nothing but an outdated, boring Brexit, voters made the wrong choice. They should hang their heads in shame.

*The Lib Dems*

The Liberal Democrats not only ran against Labour in seats Labour wanted to win, they called the whole election in the first place by refusing to install Jeremy as acting prime minister. How will they live with themselves, after this?

*The BBC*

The entire nation was teetering on the edge of a landslide for Labour when several snippets of out-of-context footage of BBC reporters showing bias were circulated on Twitter by angry Labour activists. Subsequently Labour lost. That can't be a coincidence.

*John McDonnell*

By forcing the party to back a Brexit referendum, Labour lost tens of thousands of Brexit voters and the election. Remain voters would have backed Labour anyway, because of trust. McDonnell should rename himself Judas.

*Racism*

A vote for Boris Johnson was a vote for racism, while a vote for Labour was a vote for anti-racism because nobody believed those ridiculous anti-Semitic smears which were all from lying Tory Jews anyway.

*Winning the argument*

Labour won the argument but lost the election, and perhaps it lost the election because it won the argument. Because everyone was so annoyed at how comprehensively they'd lost the argument they voted for the losers of the argument out of spite. This makes sense.

*Not Jeremy Corbyn*

The election loss was nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn, this kind man, this gentle man, this decent, honest, principled, caring, man who's been on the right side of history for 30 years. This sincere, dedicated, compassionate, decent again, virtuous, wonderful, man. Not him.


----------



## KittenKong

Something I saw on social media worried me. Two potential candidates, female of course, one of which is a close associate of McCluskey.

God give me strength!

One comment I saw was, "They need someone like Bailey to win back the leave voters".

I responded by saying that a hard Brexit will have been delivered by the time the next GE is held. How can they be sure it will still be popular once people finally find out exactly what they voted for?

Lexiter crap really, blaming Remainers for Corbyn's defeat.....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Something I saw on social media worried me. Two potential candidates, female of course, one of which is a close associate of McCluskey.
> 
> God give me strength!
> 
> One comment I saw was, "They need someone like Bailey to win back the leave voters".
> 
> I responded by saying that a hard Brexit will have been delivered by the time the next GE is held. How can they be sure it will still be popular once people finally find out exactly what they voted for?
> 
> Lexiter crap really, blaming Remainers for Corbyn's defeat.....


Surely those that normally would have voted Labour are in the best position to know why Corbyn lost?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Surely those that normally would have voted Labour are in the best position to know why Corbyn lost?


Too many numerous to repeat again, but what Labour doesn't need is the status quo with a Corbyn-like leader!

Being female won't make one iota of difference.....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Too many numerous to repeat again, but what Labour doesn't need is the status quo with a Corbyn-like leader!
> 
> Being female won't make one iota of difference.....


I assume I miss read your previous post, but to be honest the last two have been too cryptic for me. Far to many possibilities to misinterpret.
Sorry


----------



## Jesthar

I see the Tories have wasted no time in going after the disabled again...


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I see the Tories have wasted no time in going after the disabled again...


What are they doing ?


----------



## shadowmare

Jesthar said:


> I see the Tories have wasted no time in going after the disabled again...


I'm so shocked. Can't believe it. Really didn't expect that. I really thought they'd draw the line at targeting immigration. What a shocker.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Are there any links to this? I cant find anything about it apart from them saying they will continue with universal credit, but that there would be fewer assessments for the disabled. That was in the Mirror though, so who knows


----------



## Elles

A report published on Friday:

In total, of the 1.424million DLA claimants reassessed by October 2019, 306,000 (22%) had their benefit cut, 293,000 (21%) had it stopped after an assessment, 58,000 (4%) had it stopped before assessment and 9,000 (1%) withdrew their claim. 556,000 (39%) saw their award rise and 200,000 (14%) had it unchanged.

Apparently today they changed a form so that the DWP can send a report to your GP telling them not to sign you off sick if you didn't pass their tests in your PiP assessment. I can only find it in the Daily Star:

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/tories-use-first-day-back-attack-disabled


----------



## kimthecat

HarlequinCat said:


> Are there any links to this? I cant find anything about it apart from them saying they will continue with universal credit, but that there would be fewer assessments for the disabled. That was in the Mirror though, so who knows


Same here.


----------



## Elles

The only people doing these assessments should be qualified medical staff such as GPs. The assessor could decide when the person needs to be reassessed, if at all. They could get their GP to sign off that their condition is the same or worse. I don’t quite get where all this is coming from. My GP’s opinion is good enough to decide whether I’m fit enough to drive a bus, or fly a plane, but not good enough for a few quid a week in benefits, for that I need an unqualified layperson to tick boxes on a form and tell my qualified GP how fit or not I am. It’s pathetic, makes no sense.


----------



## Magyarmum

I found this from the 28th November.

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/election-2019-tories-offer-just-five-new-disability-policies/
-
*Election 2019: Tories 'offer just five new disability policies'*


----------



## shadowmare

Seen on twitter people talking about some new documentary about NHS and the conservatives? I’m guessing it’s on tv but I don’t have a license so can’t watch... seems like a lot of worried people out there talking about how this should’ve been shown before the election, but there’s still weirdos coming out to comment with “suck it up, you lost”. I find this all so surreal... I don’t get it. Surely things like healthcare is important to everyone? I can see how someone might sit in their ivory tower and not care about disability related issues because it’s not relatable... but surely everyone should care about NHS? No?


----------



## Elles

shadowmare said:


> Seen on twitter people talking about some new documentary about NHS and the conservatives? I'm guessing it's on tv but I don't have a license so can't watch... seems like a lot of worried people out there talking about how this should've been shown before the election, but there's still weirdos coming out to comment with "suck it up, you lost". I find this all so surreal... I don't get it. Surely things like healthcare is important to everyone? I can see how someone might sit in their ivory tower and not care about disability related issues because it's not relatable... but surely everyone should care about NHS? No?


https://www.itv.com/hub/the-dirty-war-on-the-nhs/2a5959


----------



## Elles

It seems the conclusion is that they will never get rid of the NHS, but it will become a more basic service.

There are campaigns to bring free basic healthcare to all globally and for each area, or country’s provision to be based on need and affordability. So a European might have access to more expensive modern treatments, but an Ethiopian not so much, however they will all have access to basic, lifesaving treatments and we will all pay into the pot, like we do with our NHS, but globally. I’ll see if I can find where I read about it, unless someone else knows?


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> It seems the conclusion is that they will never get rid of the NHS, but it will become a more basic service.
> 
> There are campaigns to bring free basic healthcare to all globally and for each area, or country's provision to be based on need and affordability. So a European might have access to more expensive modern treatments, but an Ethiopian not so much, however they will all have access to basic, lifesaving treatments and we will all pay into the pot, like we do with our NHS, but globally. I'll see if I can find where I read about it, unless someone else knows?


*I watched the documentary and that isn't the conclusion hubby and i came to. The fact is they have already been selling off out NHS, some ambulance services are run by private firms. It looked far grimmer than i ever expected.Boris has promised more money for the NHS, but what he didn't say was that the private sector is owd loads of money. :Arghh*


----------



## KittenKong

Seems Kier Starker has put himself forward for the Labour leadership. Let's hope they'll forget the, "Must be a woman" rubbish. He's certainly the best one for the job.

Coupled with the Lib Dems, if they elect a leader of credibility like Paddy Ashdown or Charles Kennedy, without any coalition baggage, they would be a driving opposition force.

We'll wait and see.


----------



## Elles

The first sentence is what John Pilger said. @JANICE199

The second paragraph was a bit of a segue in that it could become law globally to provide a basic health service for everyone, with wealthier countries being expected to provide a bit more. Similar to how poverty is assessed. A family in the U.K. might have say £60 a day after housing to feed/clothe etc, and be classed as living in poverty, whereas a family in Romania might have £60 a month and be considered well off. (Figures and Nations hypothetical and not based on any person living or dead). It didn't entirely relate, sorry. 

We've been saying all along that there are NHS contracts out for tender and American companies can bid on them. It's been like it for years and Labour and the LibDems have been just the same. Does everyone think the NHS 'in house' everything? Some parts of the NHS have always been technically private, though publically funded.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Seems Kier Starker has put himself forward for the Labour leadership. Let's hope they'll forget the, "Must be a woman" rubbish. He's certainly the best one for the job.
> 
> Coupled with the Lib Dems, if they elect a leader of credibility like Paddy Ashdown or Charles Kennedy, without any coalition baggage, they would be a driving opposition force.
> 
> We'll wait and see.


Keir Starmer is part of the Corbyn Shadow Government front benchers. I don't think there will be an appetite to vote in anyone who was previously part of Corbyn's front bench of Shadow Government.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> A report published on Friday:
> 
> In total, of the 1.424million DLA claimants reassessed by October 2019, 306,000 (22%) had their benefit cut, 293,000 (21%) had it stopped after an assessment, 58,000 (4%) had it stopped before assessment and 9,000 (1%) withdrew their claim. 556,000 (39%) saw their award rise and 200,000 (14%) had it unchanged.
> 
> Apparently today they changed a form so that the DWP can send a report to your GP telling them not to sign you off sick if you didn't pass their tests in your PiP assessment. I can only find it in the Daily Star:
> 
> https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/tories-use-first-day-back-attack-disabled


Not to mention that 68% of those who were assessed as fit to work and appealed were successful in the appeal! And that the option to NOT advise the GP was only added on the 4th December (due to the misleading nature of the letters); the Tories must have whiplash from the speed of that reversal...

I've already have one of my friends on the phone for an hour, upset. They work full time but receive benefits because of a progressive degenerative condition - some days she can barely walk and it's only going to get worse. Anyway, the physios are already warning her and other people in the same boat that some assessors are growing so harsh they count being able to walk 20 yards into the building (with or without help) as demosntrating you don't need the assistance with mobility.



shadowmare said:


> I'm so shocked. Can't believe it. Really didn't expect that. I really thought they'd draw the line at targeting immigration. What a shocker.


I wish I could say the same, but I can't. This is, after all, the the political party that instigated a system where a wheelchair using friend of mine had HER benefits slashed because she missed an appointment due to being in hospital for several days with two very sick, breastfeeding nearly-newborns!


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Not to mention that 68% of those who were assessed as fit to work and appealed were successful in the appeal! And that the option to NOT advise the GP was only added on the 4th December (due to the misleading nature of the letters); the Tories must have whiplash from the speed of that reversal...
> 
> I've already have one of my friends on the phone for an hour, upset. They work full time but receive benefits because of a progressive degenerative condition - some days she can barely walk and it's only going to get worse. Anyway, the physios are already warning her and other people in the same boat that some assessors are growing so harsh they count being able to walk 20 yards into the building (with or without help) as demosntrating you don't need the assistance with mobility.
> 
> I wish I could say the same, but I can't. This is, after all, the the political party that instigated a system where a wheelchair using friend of mine had HER benefits slashed because she missed an appointment due to being in hospital for several days with two very sick, breastfeeding nearly-newborns!


It's disgusting.  People already have to be so careful with what they say to these people. Who are they that they can be such b'tards with the power they've been given? unch Is a job criteria 40 ticks on the Hare checklist?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It's disgusting.  People already have to be so careful with what they say to these people. Who are they that they can be such b'tards with the power they've been given? unch Is a job criteria 40 ticks on the Hare checklist?


They have quotas for failing people, I know that from the horses mouth. Then they hope people are too demoralised or drained to appeal.


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> The first sentence is what John Pilger said. @JANICE199
> 
> The second paragraph was a bit of a segue in that it could become law globally to provide a basic health service for everyone, with wealthier countries being expected to provide a bit more. Similar to how poverty is assessed. A family in the U.K. might have say £60 a day after housing to feed/clothe etc, and be classed as living in poverty, whereas a family in Romania might have £60 a month and be considered well off. (Figures and Nations hypothetical and not based on any person living or dead). It didn't entirely relate, sorry.
> 
> We've been saying all along that there are NHS contracts out for tender and American companies can bid on them. It's been like it for years and Labour and the LibDems have been just the same. Does everyone think the NHS 'in house' everything? Some parts of the NHS have always been technically private, though publically funded.[/QUOT
> 
> *Hand on heart neither hubby or myself thought things were/are as bad as they are. I don't think i have seen anything so damn sickening in my time. I know, or at least accept the fact i might be in the minority but i do believe JC would have changed things had he become PM. I had never voted for anyone else, and i can't see me voting again. Since the election i have questioned so much, and for the life of me i cannot believe how or why people thought that a born liar was best. But things can't turn the clock back.:Inpain*


----------



## Elles

I couldn’t bring myself to vote for any of them. Labour should change it’s name to Momentum, never been a fan of Boris, Swinson is anti democratic and greedy, the Greens are away with the fairies. The Conservatives really need to reverse their attack on the welfare state and the disabled, then I’d consider it. Not sure I’ll live that long.


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> I couldn't bring myself to vote for any of them. Labour should change it's name to Momentum, never been a fan of Boris, Swinson is anti democratic and greedy, the Greens are away with the fairies. The Conservatives really need to reverse their attack on the welfare state and the disabled, then I'd consider it. Not sure I'll live that long.


*I did write a reply to your reply to me. I have no idea why it hasn't come out.:Arghh*


----------



## Jesthar

JANICE199 said:


> *I did write a reply to your reply to me. I have no idea why it hasn't come out.:Arghh*


It's there, just missing a closing square bracket on the quote (a ] ), so it appears as part of what you quoted, not afterwards. If you expand the quote, you can see it


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> They have quotas for failing people, I know that from the horses mouth. Then they hope people are too demoralised or drained to appeal.


Indeed . its been like that for some years .


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I've already have one of my friends on the phone for an hour, upset. They work full time but receive benefits because of a progressive degenerative condition - some days she can barely walk and it's only going to get worse. Anyway, the physios are already warning her and other people in the same boat that some assessors are growing so harsh they count being able to walk 20 yards into the building (with or without help) as demosntrating you don't need the assistance with mobility.


 If this is for PIP , its done on a points system . if you cant walk more than 20 metres with out stopping , assistance or not, you get maximum points for mobility . If you can walk more than 200 metres you dont get anything .



> I wish I could say the same, but I can't. This is, after all, the the political party that instigated a system where a wheelchair using friend of mine had HER benefits slashed because she missed an appointment due to being in hospital for several days with two very sick, breastfeeding nearly-newborns!


Did she appeal?

Im still not clear what you meant in your original post about the tories attacks on disabled starting already . Is it to with what Elles said about Doctors letters?

ETA The change over from DLA to PIP wasa con. They moved the goal posts. A friend lost the disability car he was entitled too because with DLA you get one if you can walk more than fifty metres and Pip it was 30 metres. It looks like its is now 20 metres


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> If this is for PIP , its done on a points system . if you cant walk more than 30 yards with out stopping , assistance or not, you get maximum points for mobility . If you can walk more than 200 yards you dont get anything .
> Unless they change the system, I dont see how they can legally count the 20 yards into the building as fulfilling the criteria .


You're assuming they are playing by the rules. There is a reason over two thirds of appealed assessments get overturned. Many assessment reports bear no resemblance to the what actually happened in the room, I have a number of friends and colleagues where there have been outright and blatant lies in the report.



kimthecat said:


> Did she appeal?


I don't believe so - she was an exhausted disabled woman with young twins and other complications, by the time she realised what they had done they said it was too late to appeal unless she wanted to go on a waiting list for a full reassessment with no benefits in the interim, or something like that. 



kimthecat said:


> Im still not clear what you meant in your original post about the tories attacks on disabled starting already . Is it to with what Elles said about Doctors letters?


Yes. On the 4th of December (yes, this month!) they stopped automatically writing to GPs to tell them the outcome of a claimants Work Capability Assessment (which are notoriously for being badly carried out and setting assessed people up to fail), they had to ask permission instead via a tick box on forms. ICO had been criticising them for the automatic letter for ages, especially since the letters themselves were worded in a very misleading fashion from 2017 onwards, basically telling a GP that they don't need to provide any more fit notes from now, even though Fit Notes would be necessary to keep claiming ESA during the lengthy appeals process - that could mean months with no significant income. Until 2017 the letter advised GPs that if their patient appealed against the WCA decision they must continue to provide fit notes.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...sing-ill-and-disabled-people-to-lose-benefits

They've now reversed that decision and removed the tick box again.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> You're assuming they are playing by the rules. There is a reason over two thirds of appealed assessments get overturned. Many assessment reports bear no resemblance to the what actually happened in the room, I have a number of friends and colleagues where there have been outright and blatant lies in the report.


 No Im not assuming they play by the rules . Im saying what the rules are. I saw that programme a while back where someone went undercover in an assessment centre and found they often made decisions before they even met the person .

I understand you can record the interview if you ask permission.

Thank goodness they can appeal , if you have the strength .
There are many horror stories but not all the assessors are evil .



> Yes. On the 4th of December (yes, this month!) they stopped automatically writing to GPs to tell them the outcome of a claimants Work Capability Assessment (which are notoriously for being badly carried out and setting assessed people up to fail), they had to ask permission instead via a tick box on forms. ICO had been criticising them for the automatic letter for ages, especially since the letters themselves were worded in a very misleading fashion from 2017 onwards, basically telling a GP that they don't need to provide any more fit notes from now, even though Fit Notes would be necessary to keep claiming ESA during the lengthy appeals process.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...sing-ill-and-disabled-people-to-lose-benefits
> 
> They've now reversed that decision and removed the tick box again.


Thanks , will read. BTW The article is 8 months old . Not recent.

BTW IM not defending the Tories nor did I vote for them


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> No Im not assuming they play by the rules . Im saying what the rules are. I saw that programme a while back where someone went undercover in an assessment centre and found they often made decisions before they even met the person .


Yes, that's pretty normal. The advice given to most people having to go through the process (or the PIP process) is expect to have to appeal.



kimthecat said:


> I understand you can record the interview if you ask permission.
> 
> Thank goodness they can appeal , if you have the strength .
> There are many horror stories but not all the assessors are evil .


No, not all of them are - but I can't imagine the good ones last long as they'd never hit their targets.  Interviews can be recorded, though you have to request that in advance and it may delay your assessment - the way things are, though, no-one should have the interview without it being recorded. Which is a seriously messed up state of affairs when the primary aim of the system supposed to help those in need is to deny them as much as possible and hope they can't face a fight to get what they actually deserve by the real rules. 



kimthecat said:


> Thanks , will read. BTW The article is 8 months old . Not recent.
> 
> BTW IM not defending the Tories nor did I vote for them


Yes, that article was from earlier this year, exposing the deliberately misleading wording (which was specifically ordered by ministers) in the GP letter and the hardships it was causing. That was why the tick box that has now been taken away again was introduced.


----------



## KittenKong

A comparison of the recent Election result between FPTP and if PR had been implemented.

And reports in that the proposed boundary changes would have resulted in a Johnson majority of 107 had they already been in place.

We can accept PR will be further light years away, but if this doesn't motivate Labour, the Greens and Lib Dems to work towards a merger, then nothing will.

The general feeling around is very much like it was in 1987.

Only, this is far worse as Swinson and Corbyn allowed and enabled this to happen.

For that, I'll never forgive them.

(The fixed term act wasn't in force in 1987, a PM could call a GE at anytime they wanted to).


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 426093
> A comparison of the recent Election result between FPTP and if PR had been implemented.
> 
> And reports in that the proposed boundary changes would have resulted in a Johnson majority of 107 had they already been in place.
> 
> We can accept PR will be further light years away, but if this doesn't motivate Labour, the Greens and Lib Dems to work towards a merger, then nothing will.
> 
> The general feeling around is very much like it was in 1987.
> 
> Only, this is far worse as Swinson and Corbyn allowed and enabled this to happen.
> 
> For that, I'll never forgive them.
> 
> (The fixed term act wasn't in force in 1987, a PM could call a GE at anytime they wanted to).


All totally irrelevant I'm afraid.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> All totally irrelevant I'm afraid.


My thoughts exactly


----------



## Happy Paws2

We all have to live the result, but I just hope those who turned their back on the Labour Party don't live to reget it, sadly I think they will.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> All totally irrelevant I'm afraid.


Well, not quite. It's irrelevant in that we can't do anything about it until the next GE.

However, our current PM is VERY fond of trotting out 'Will of the People' type rhetoric, particularly now he has a parliamentary majority. It might be useful to remind him from time to time that this doesn't translate to even half of voters backing his party (let alone him).


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Well, not quite. It's irrelevant in that we can't do anything about it until the next GE.
> 
> However, our current PM is VERY fond of trotting out 'Will of the People' type rhetoric, particularly now he has a parliamentary majority. It might be useful to remind him from time to time that this doesn't translate to even half of voters backing his party (let alone him).


It's the will of the people based on the current voting system. Which is where we are, so I still think it's irrelevant.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> It's the *will of the people* based on the current voting system. Which is where we are, so I still think it's irrelevant.


This isn't aimed at you, but I HATE that phrase. Especially when the PM uses it as an excuse for not listening to anyone other than those who share a Tory leadership world view.

Suppose the situation had been even more extreme, and the winning party got 75% of the seats in Parliament with only 30% of the popular vote. Would that still qualify as 'The Will Of the People'?

Of course, technically it would also be impossible to know the 'will of the people' for any particular policy at any given time without asking them. So whilst that phrase sounds good, it really means very little. 

</pedantic rant>


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> This isn't aimed at you, *but I HATE that phrase*. Especially when the PM uses it as an excuse for not listening to anyone other than those who share a Tory leadership world view.
> 
> Suppose the situation had been even more extreme, and the winning party got 75% of the seats in Parliament with only 30% of the popular vote. Would that still qualify as 'The Will Of the People'?
> 
> Of course, technically it would also be impossible to know the 'will of the people' for any particular policy at any given time without asking them. So whilst that phrase sounds good, it really means very little.
> 
> </pedantic rant>


I only said it because you did....


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> I only said it because you did....


I know, I was just clarifying that I don't regard it as a good, or even valid, turn of phrase when used in the way BoJo and his ilk use it, and why. 

Sorry if I'm a bit more tetchy than I usually am. I'm already dealing with the fallout from the election result, and the day job is being frustrating today too...


----------



## KittenKong

At one time, the Conservative party would never allowed the likes of these people to join their party.

That's how low things have become.


----------



## Guest

Wrong thread.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> At one time, the Conservative party would never allowed the likes of these people to join their party.
> 
> That's how low things have become.
> View attachment 426129


https://scramnews.com/tommy-robinson-fake-conservative-membership-card/

*Tommy Robinson fakes Conservative membership card*

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/mps-react-claims-katie-hopkins-3648971

*MPs react to claims Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson have joined Conservative Party*


----------



## Vicbloss

saartje said:


> Wrong thread.


And yet you didn't feel the need to post when people started talking about PIP payments which could also be described as being on the "wrong thread". That couldn't be because KK didn't contribute, could it?
How about you and everyone else who constantly snipes at KK gives him a break? It is Christmas after all.


----------



## MilleD

Vicbloss said:


> And yet you didn't feel the need to post when people started talking about PIP payments which could also be described as being on the "wrong thread". That couldn't be because KK didn't contribute, could it?
> How about you and everyone else who constantly snipes at KK gives him a break? It is Christmas after all.


​Have you misunderstood? I got the impression that @saartje had posted something then realised it was on the wrong thread and so edited it to say so?


----------



## Vicbloss

Oh no! Maybe I have.
Apologies for that.
I just worry slightly for KK. He does seem to get a hard time on here.

And to be honest, my point still stands. Numerous examples; post 1233 is just one of them.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> Wrong thread.


Easily done .


----------



## Bisbow

If KK stopped giving leave voters a hard time perhaps it would be reciprocated
He is perfectly able to stand up for himself, and does


----------



## stuaz

Vicbloss said:


> Oh no! Maybe I have.
> Apologies for that.
> I just worry slightly for KK. He does seem to get a hard time on here.
> 
> And to be honest, my point still stands. Numerous examples; post 1233 is just one of them.


What's wrong with post 1233?


----------



## MilleD

Vicbloss said:


> Oh no! Maybe I have.
> Apologies for that.
> I just worry slightly for KK. He does seem to get a hard time on here.
> 
> And to be honest, my point still stands. Numerous examples; post 1233 is just one of them.


I see you've got the editing thing down after people have liked your posts - good work. Basically "sorry, not sorry"?

Post 1233 is me pointing out the fact that saying what the result might have been if we had a different voting system is irrelevant.

And that point stands too. We have a first past the post voting system. Which we all voted within.

If we had a dictatorship it would be a different result too. Still irrelevant.

So can you explain your issue with that post?


----------



## Vicbloss

All I am saying is that we live in a world where people's mental health is increasingly fragile. 
Internet forums can be nasty places and I have witnessed KK getting a really hard time on many an occasion and seeing as it's the season of goodwill to all men and all that...


----------



## MilleD

Vicbloss said:


> All I am saying is that we live in a world where people's mental health is increasingly fragile.
> Internet forums can be nasty places and I have witnessed KK getting a really hard time on many an occasion and seeing as it's the season of goodwill to all men and all that...


So I have to not post on a forum (a completely acceptable post) in case I upset someone, due to something I can't possibly be aware of online?

It's ok for someone to attack everyone who doesn't share their views but you aren't allowed to say anything back?

Come on now....


----------



## Bisbow

Vicbloss said:


> All I am saying is that we live in a world where people's mental health is increasingly fragile.
> Internet forums can be nasty places and I have witnessed KK getting a really hard time on many an occasion and seeing as it's the season of goodwill to all men and all that...


Goodwill needs to run in both directions, not just one, to mean anything


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> And yet you didn't feel the need to post when people started talking about PIP payments which could also be described as being on the "wrong thread". That couldn't be because KK didn't contribute, could it?
> How about you and everyone else who constantly snipes at KK gives him a break? It is Christmas after all.


I am sorry but why do you feel the need to verbally attack me? It is nothing to do with sniping at kk because I haven't. I have been polite and curtious to everyone on here and other threads. *I accidently posted something on here that was meant for another thread. *Seriously look at kk's attitude towards me on other threads to the point a moderator got involved and told me to ignore him.


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> Oh no! Maybe I have.
> Apologies for that.


 Apology accepted.


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## Vicbloss

If you feel I have verbally attacked you, then I apologise for that. I personally don't feel that I have but, if that is how you feel, then I apologise. Similarly, you may think that you have been polite and courteous to everybody on here but you don't know that that is how they feel. Anyhow, perhaps its just for the best that I just never quote you again because I have no wish to offend.

It seems to me that there is a group of people who spend their entire time waiting for someone to post something that they don't agree with so they can either disagree with them or, more often imo, have a go at them. I just find it a bit distasteful. That's all.


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## Calvine

MilleD said:


> ​Have you misunderstood? I got the impression that @saartje had posted something then realised it was on the wrong thread and so edited it to say so?


That was my take on it as well.


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## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> If you feel I have verbally attacked you, then I apologise for that. I personally don't feel that I have but, if that is how you feel, then I apologise. Similarly, you may think that you have been polite and courteous to everybody on here but you don't know that that is how they feel. Anyhow, perhaps its just for the best that I just never quote you again because I have no wish to offend.
> 
> It seems to me that there is a group of people who spend their entire time waiting for someone to post something that they don't agree with so they can either disagree with them or, more often imo, have a go at them. I just find it a bit distasteful. That's all.


KK can be really offensive to people, he has been to me and a moderator had to step in on another thread. I have remained polite and courteous to everyone and used facts to reply when needed and accepted being corrected at times if I have been wrong. I do not wait for KK to post things until I reply in fact I ignore him as advised as much as possible.


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## Calvine

stuaz said:


> What's wrong with post 1233?


 Nowt as far as one can see.


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## Vicbloss

Argh! Now I can't quote! Just to say, facts are important sure. But so are feelings and while you may think you have always remained polite and courteous, it is possible people have not always taken it that way. Anyhow, that's all I'm going to say because I don't want you to take it the wrong way.


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## Calvine

MilleD said:


> All totally irrelevant I'm afraid.


If I posted something as innocuous as this, I'd be genuinely shocked if it upset anyone, truly I would.


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## kimthecat

Vicbloss said:


> All I am saying is that we live in a world where people's mental health is increasingly fragile.
> Internet forums can be nasty places and I have witnessed KK getting a really hard time on many an occasion and seeing as it's the season of goodwill to all men and all that...


I bet KKs ears are burning .  I understand why you want to stick up for someone. though why is it, that other Remainers dont have such a hard time, Could it be with the manner in which he posts ? he's a nice guy and very passionate about his cause His posts can come over as condemning and accusatory and sometimes inaccurate .
We've had a few of these Brexit threads and at one time or another most of us here have had poop thrown at us.


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## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> Argh! Now I can't quote! Just to say, facts are important sure. But so are feelings and while you may think you have always remained polite and courteous, it is possible people have not always taken it that way. Anyhow, that's all I'm going to say because I don't want you to take it the wrong way.


What have I done wrong then and I will apologise as I am confused as to what you are picking on me about?


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## Vicbloss

Why would you think I am "picking on you"?! 
All I am saying is what is polite and courteous to one person may be something quite different to another.
Same with offensive posts.
I'd really like to leave it there if you don't mind.


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## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I bet KKs ears are burning .  I understand why you want to stick up for someone. though why is it, that other Remainers dont have such a hard time, Could it be with the manner in which he posts ? he's a nice guy and very passionate about his cause His posts can come over as condemning and accusatory and sometimes inaccurate .
> We've had a few of these Brexit threads and at one time or another most of us here have had poop thrown at us.


Meaning: ''It's not what you say, it's the way that you say it'' (up to a point)?


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## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> Why would you think I am "picking on you"?!
> All I am saying is what is polite and courteous to one person may be something quite different to another.
> Same with offensive posts.
> I'd really like to leave it there if you don't mind.


Initially you qouted me and that implied you was directing things at me. Well that is the way I took it. Now I know your comments are not directed at me specifically then I will let it drop.

KK has to be careful to how he speaks to people as well things do go both ways.


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## Calvine

Vicbloss said:


> Argh! Now I can't quote! Just to say, facts are important sure. But so are feelings and while you may think you have always remained polite and courteous, it is possible people have not always taken it that way. Anyhow, that's all I'm going to say because I don't want you to take it the wrong way.


Maybe because some are so convinced that they are right that they are unable to see anyone else's point of view . . . and probably tend to surround themselves with people of like opinion. (I am not referring to you yourself, @Vicbloss.)


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## Guest

Calvine said:


> Meaning: ''It's not what you say, it's the way that you say it'' (up to a point)?


I aplogise if anything I have said has been taken out of context.


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## kimthecat

saartje said:


> I aplogise if anything I have said has been taken out of context.


i dont think you did .


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## MilleD

Calvine said:


> If I posted something as innocuous as this, I'd be genuinely shocked if it upset anyone, truly I would.


What can I say, I'm shocking... :Wideyed


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## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> All totally irrelevant I'm afraid.


It was just a comparison between what would have happened had PR been the UK voting method. It was put there for interest purposes really.

I know FPTP is here to stay with such a change most unlikely, especially now. Doesn't mean I agree with it, then, there you go.


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## MollySmith

A reminder from last week, and always


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## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Well, not quite. It's irrelevant in that we can't do anything about it until the next GE.
> 
> However, our current PM is VERY fond of trotting out 'Will of the People' type rhetoric, particularly now he has a parliamentary majority. It might be useful to remind him from time to time that this doesn't translate to even half of voters backing his party (let alone him).


Indeed. Thatcher won a similar majority in 1987 in spite of her increasing unpopularity and with the Poll Tax in the Manifesto. Split anti Tory vote between the Alliance, as they were, and Labour contributed to that, as it did in 2019.

Just because Johnson won with a similar majority, it doesn't necessarily suggest he's adored or even liked by the majority of the electorate.



Vicbloss said:


> And yet you didn't feel the need to post when people started talking about PIP payments which could also be described as being on the "wrong thread". That couldn't be because KK didn't contribute, could it?
> How about you and everyone else who constantly snipes at KK gives him a break? It is Christmas after all.


Very kind of you, but after three years I'm used to it! It would be wrong to suggest I haven't had a go at one or two myself over that time and have unintentionally upset them, then no one is perfect.

Welcome by the way, nice to have you on board. Nice touch for Christmas that comment. I try to make the entire year a season of goodwill if I can.


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## KittenKong

Someone on the similar Sabre Roads off topic forum brought up the interesting case of Redcar in Cleveland (or N Yorkshire, take your pick). Over the past few Elections it's switched between Labour, the Lib Dems, back to Labour and now the Tories. I was really sad for Anna Turley. I had the pleasure of meeting her once, a lovely woman.

The BXP were very active in the election, as they were in my area. This is one of the leaflets/papers they delivered.

Note, not one mention as to why people should vote BXP, only, not Labour.

It's significant the Tories adopted the same light blue/Turquoise colouring on their literature as used by the BXP. With Farage recommending tactical voting for the Tories it gave people who would usually never consider voting Tory the green light to do so.

In 1983 with much of the public still experiencing the media inspired Falklands euphoria, many safe Liberal and Labour seats fell to the Tories, Newcastle Central for example. Many returned to Labour and the SDP/Liberal Alliance in 1987.


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## Vicbloss

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. Thatcher won a similar majority in 1987 in spite of her increasing unpopularity and with the Poll Tax in the Manifesto. Split anti Tory vote between the Alliance, as they were, and Labour contributed to that, as it did in 2019.
> 
> Just because Johnson won with a similar majority, it doesn't necessarily suggest he's adored or even liked by the majority of the electorate.
> 
> Very kind of you, but after three years I'm used to it! It would be wrong to suggest I haven't had a go at one or two myself over that time and have unintentionally upset them, then no one is perfect.
> 
> Welcome by the way, nice to have you on board. Nice touch for Christmas that comment. I try to make the entire year a season of goodwill if I can.


I had been trying to stay silent but just got to the point where I'd had enough so posted! Just so happens I got it wrong but not for the first time and undoubtedly not the last! As you say, no one is perfect.

As for the @MilleD post about KK's PR/FPTP post being irrelevant, there is nothing wrong with it as such. Personally I think KK's post was relevant but others clearly didn't. What I objected to is I believe that that post would not have garnered the same response if someone other than KK had posted it. I may be wrong but we will never know. But the fact the Pip posts weren't picked up would suggest that I may be correct in my belief.


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## MilleD

Vicbloss said:


> As for the @MilleD post about KK's PR/FPTP post being irrelevant, there is nothing wrong with it as such. Personally I think KK's post was relevant but others clearly didn't. What I objected to is I believe that that post would not have garnered the same response if someone other than KK had posted it. I may be wrong but we will never know. But the fact the Pip posts weren't picked up would suggest that I may be correct in my belief.


Please don't presume to know how I would respond to any poster, whether KK or someone else.

You are wrong.

And I don't even know what you are talking about about the PIP posts. Not a clue.

But thanks for thinking you know me.


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## Vicbloss

I don't for a moment think that I know you, @MilleD
But I do have the right to arrive at an opinion after looking at the facts of the matter.
It wasn't just you anyway, there were a whole load of likes from predictable sources.


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## MilleD

Vicbloss said:


> I don't for a moment think that I know you, @MilleD
> But I do have the right to arrive at an opinion after looking at the facts of the matter.
> It wasn't just you anyway, there were a whole load of likes from predictable sources.


And yet it's my post that you singled out. Which was in no way inflammatory or insulting.

Even KKs own response to it was less knee jerk than yours.


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## Vicbloss

MilleD said:


> And yet it's my post that you singled out. Which was in no way inflammatory or insulting.
> 
> Even KKs own response to it was less knee jerk than yours.


I'm not sure how illustrating my point with a post made several pages ago could be described as knee jerk!
Anyway it was another post that made me post at first which turned out to be a mistake on my part and for which I apologised.


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## kimthecat

Does anyone have anything to say about the General Election or has this thread run its course?

ETA Best wishes to MP Emma Dent who was diagnosed and treated for breast cancer before the Election .

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/18/emma-dent-coad-ex-labour-mp-breast-cancer

The former Labour MP for Kensington has revealed she underwent treatment for breast cancer days before narrowly losing her seat to the Conservatives in the general election.

Emma Dent Coad told the BBC she received the diagnosis after a routine screening on 14 November and underwent a procedure to remove the cancer three days before polling day.

The 65-year-old, who is still a Labour councillor in the London borough of Kensington and Chelsea, said she decided not to share the diagnosis with the public, because she didn't want it to become an issue in the campaign.

Dent Coad was elected as the seat's first Labour MP in 2017, a week before 72 people were killed in the fire at Grenfell Tower in the constituency. She lost the seat by 150 votes in last week's general election.


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## 5r6ubertbe6y

It's over a week since the election so perhaps it's time to move on. The next vote will be the Labour leadership elections.


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## KittenKong

Jobs for their chums.
Appalling abuse of power. So much for the House of "Commons".


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## lymorelynn

Without going through all of this thread, I have to comment on some posts from earlier. There seems to be some sort of undercurrent on what people perceive as acceptable to post or not. All I am going to say is that it is *not *acceptable to post personal, verbal attacks on another member's views or opinions.. I'm going to leave the posts in question but if I hear of any others they will be removed and warnings will be issued.


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## KittenKong

Twitter:


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## kimthecat

I like Zac , he does a lot to help animal welfare and he tried to stop third runway which is more than what Boris has done. I wish he were my MP.
Im crowd funding Buy a Bulldozer for Boris so he can lie down in front of it.


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## Dave S

Given there were 2 state openings of Parliament pretty close together, I guess by the Queens dress she did not really appreciate a second opening so close.

Looks like she just popped in on the way back from Tesco's.

September








December








Looking at that second picture again, doesn't she look like "Winnie" from Mrs. Browns boys!


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## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I like Zac , he does a lot to help animal welfare and he tried to stop third runway which is more than what Boris has done. I wish he were my MP.
> Im crowd funding Buy a Bulldozer for Boris so he can lie down in front of it.


Isn't the point really. The electorate voted them out of their constituencies, so they shouldn't be allowed to return as cabinet ministers in Parliament.

By all means, give them a seat in the House of Lords, but it's wrong they keep their cabinet jobs as they had when elected as MPs.

That's what I thought _Members of Parliament _was after all. Members of a Parliament.

What would stop them giving a cabinet post to Farage or similar?

Or if Jo Swinson continued as Lib Dems leader, despite losing her seat?


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## kimthecat

Dave S said:


> Given there were 2 state openings of Parliament pretty close together, I guess by the Queens dress she did not really appreciate a second opening so close.
> 
> Looks like she just popped in on the way back from Tesco's.
> 
> September
> View attachment 426358
> 
> 
> December
> View attachment 426359
> 
> 
> Looking at that second picture again, doesn't she look like "Winnie" from Mrs. Browns boys!


I dont blame her .


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## Shrike

KittenKong said:


> Isn't the point really. The electorate voted them out of their constituencies, so they shouldn't be allowed to return as cabinet ministers in Parliament.
> 
> By all means, give them a seat in the House of Lords, but it's wrong they keep their cabinet jobs as they had when elected as MPs.
> 
> That's what I thought _Members of Parliament _was after all. Members of a Parliament.
> 
> What would stop them giving a cabinet post to Farage or similar?
> 
> Or if Jo Swinson continued as Lib Dems leader, despite losing her seat?


Nicky Morgan wasn't voted out, she stood down - due to the amount of online and real life abuse she was getting.
As for cabinet jobs - Labour have done the same - no one voted for Baroness Shami Chakrabarti to be Shadow Attorney General.


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## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Isn't the point really.


Sure but I wasnt trying to make a point. I was just expressing my opinion of him.


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## KittenKong

Shrike said:


> Nicky Morgan wasn't voted out, she stood down - due to the amount of online and real life abuse she was getting.
> As for cabinet jobs - Labour have done the same - no one voted for Baroness Shami Chakrabarti to be Shadow Attorney General.


Was Chakrabarti an MP who got voted out, but kept her cabinet job?

Goldsmith was most certainly voted out though, yet remains in his cabinet position!

It isn't right.


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## KittenKong




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## KittenKong

Very good article here from the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...mpare-corbyn-labour-michael-foot-neil-kinnock


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