# Disobedient Border Collie



## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

Hi all im looking for some advice for a 1.5 years old border collie.

On several occasions this has happened: she runs out of the field and goes back home but not before jumping out infront of cars and nearly getting run over.

The problem is that she doesn't listen outside, if she sees a person riding on their bike she will chase them and bite even while im calling her back - when she gets something in her mind she blocks everything else out. She doesn't want to come back so i can put her lead on to go home, she will come close and then run away as if she is teasing me.

If she sees a shifty guy walking past she may growl and bark at him. sure it makes me proud that she is trying to protect me but it isn't not fair on that guy.

in the house she is good as gold, puts her ears down, sits and shakes my hand but outside she is a master in her own world it seems and no one can stop her cuz she is super fast!

so as u can see we got problems with our border collie. we got her a face leash thing and have been using that in hope that she will stop pulling but i think it is just because she is excited to get to the park. we take her for a walk every single day but still she has not gotten out of this habbit. we thought that she was growing up and getting over her problems but it she ran out of the park again today and nearly got run over twice! it seems that she will have to stay on the leash until she is about 3 years old, but really must it be like this? i feel sorry for her sometimes because she wants to play.

We are looking to mate her this year and we hope that she will become more responsible and act sensible when we take her for walks in the future. do u think this will work?

After this incident today i signed up to this forum and im looking for advice. Thank you!









Sadie when she was a puppy.
Has one blue eye and one brown eye.

Sadie grown 1.5 years old.


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

How long have you had her for?

What training have you done so far?

Most collies need lots of things to keep them selfs occupied or they become bored easily and can show the behaviour you mentioned.


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## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

had her since she was a pup, we brought her from a farm.

trained her to sit, 
sit at a traffic light stopping (still working on this), 
fetch a stick (doesn't always bring it back) 
and her paw (shake hand).
recently i been trying to train her to lie down and play dead.

i see what u mean about keeping them occupied as we dont do much when we are walking her, she is either on the leash or if it is late in the evening we let her run around in the field when there is no one around. Sometimes we play fetch with her but she doesnt always bring it back so we get bored too. but damn when she does play; she is so focused, as if every millisecond counts, it is pretty cool.


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

BC are dogs that love to have something to do, they usually love pleasing their owners.

what do you use to keep her motavated?
treats, toy or praise?

Have you thought about taking her to training classes that use possitive training?

My GSD will basically do anything for her ball.

where abouts are you in the UK?


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

Just seen you edited post, mating her will not make her any better and i would suggest you not to do that. 

It might even make her worse!


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

hi there! welcome to the forum....have you ever had a BC before? border collies need training training training - they are way too quick for their owners so you have to be clever - as they will pick up bad habits just as quick as the good ones!!

adequate exercise is very important, but mental stimulation is just as important if not more so. if she came from a farm she will be working stock and possibly the more switched on of the breed...so the tricks you have taught so far are a great start, so keep thinking up new ones of these to teach, but sounds like you need to work on a few more fundamental issues here too.

recall - what training have you done to get her to come back to you? they dont automatically come pre-programmed to come to you im afriad. personally i would buy her a long line (not a flexi lead but a long training line of about 5 or 10 metres). attach this to a harness and dont let her off for the next few weeks while you really work on training a reliable recall. you always have to make it fun to come back to you and you need to build up distractions gradually. if you can find a 'secure' park or field that she cannot get out of this would be useful too!

impulse control - with the bike chasing, running off etc, lots of work on impulse control would be good. some recent threads on this kind of thing, so will go and find to post a link here for you

growling at strangers - is it only with 'shifty' people? who does she do this to and in what circumstances?

breeding - please please please please please - if nothing else do not breed from her. it sounds like she has obedience/possible behvioural issues at present that would have to be rectified before you even began to consider such a step apart from any of the other reasons not to. and no, breeding from her would NOT help with any of her issues....only training and adequate mental stimulation will rectify the problems that you are having.


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> hi there! welcome to the forum....have you ever had a BC before? border collies need training training training - they are way too quick for their owners so you have to be clever - as they will pick up bad habits just as quick as the good ones!!
> 
> adequate exercise is very important, but mental stimulation is just as important if not more so. if she came from a farm she will be working stock and possibly the more switched on of the breed...so the tricks you have taught so far are a great start, so keep thinking up new ones of these to teach, but sounds like you need to work on a few more fundamental issues here too.
> 
> ...


Totally agree


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Recall:
A really good blog post on preventing recall problems - and although you already have some, its still good to consider all these things and if maybe any of them are where you might have gone wrong so you can work at fixing it: 10 Tips To Help Prevent Recall*Problems - blog - fun4fido | clicker training 4 dogs

Impulse Control:
An absolutely excellent thread on impulse control and contains a wealth of info on all sorts of things that I personall think any highly reactive breed like a border collie, even if you dont consider the dog to have these specific problems: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...rrraaaaaazzzzzzzy-canine-new-blog-series.html

Loose lead walking/stop pulling training:
Sorry forgot to mention in my previous thread that the head harness you mention is really just a tool to manage the behaviour whilst you do the training to teach loose lead walking...so the problem is if you use it with no training, when you take it off they will quickly revert back to pulling - thats assuming it even works in the first place! Some good info on calm walkies! Scroll down for loose lead walking: http://petcentralpawsitivepetcare.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/new-leash-on-life-calm-for-walkies/


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## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

wow so many replied, u are all very helpful and it is much appeciated!

@GSDlover4ever
We usually keep her motivated with praise. when she comes back to us (sometimes) she gets a nice little cuddle and a "good giiirrrl!" we give her treats when we are training her tricks.

We may consider dog training classes but first i'll see what other advice from here i can get and i'll give it a go.
We are in wales, cardiff.

@katiefranke
*ty for the welcome and the long and informative post.
*this is out first border collie.
*yeah i think tricks can wait, fundamental issues are the problem.
*we have not actually trained her to come back to us, i assumed that they will just come when the master calls - but yeah good point, we will need to train her to come back to us.
*a long training line. yes i seen one at pets at home. Okay I can see y it would be useful now and i'll get one tomorrow and try what u said.
*- Question -- She dont have a harness, will her coller not do? she is pretty strong and will pull me even harder if she had a harness.
*not sure i understand how impulse control works, i will read the link on it soon.
*yeah uhh shifty people - yes ur right, i was vague on that. Only happened a few occasions. She is fine in the day time and doesn't see anyone as a threat but if it is late and some big guy walks past she goes into protective mode but not all the time. it is weird, maybe she can sense something, maybe cuz hes big, maybe cuz he stinks... i dont know but it isnt a big issue as it doesnt happen often.
*- Question -- that is two replies saying do not breed. what is wrong with it? is it because it weakens them? is she too young? I dont understand.

u two have been very helpful so far. I shall take ur advice but I think the recall training is very important and i'll begin training as soon as i can.

btw katiefranke, tnx for the links. will read 'em soon.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

xile101 said:


> *- Question -- that is two replies saying do not breed. what is wrong with it? is it because it weakens them? is she too young? I dont understand.


There are an estimated 10,000 (or more) collies going through rescue every year in the UK and thats not counting the ones rehomed by their owners over and over again until they are so screwed up that they end up put down.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

xile101 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> We are looking to *mate her this year and we hope that she will become more responsible and act sensible when we take her for walks in the future. *do u think this will work?


to be blunt, hun - but utterly, totally truthful - 
*any problem-behaviors she has before she is bred, 
will be either just as bad post-litter as before, or *Worse*. 
there is absolutely no reason to think that she will somehow, *miraculously*, 
grow better-behaved as a result of the miracle of Motherhood. *

i would suggest that, if U want to fix her behavior, then fix her behavior;

i would NOT suggest breeding to any pet-owner without a dog specifically bought for that purpose, from a good breeder, 
and *the dog must be 2-YO, fully screened for heritable problems, excellent temp, etc, before breeding. * 
waiting till the dog is 24-MO eliminates over-80% of heritable problems that generally manifest with symptoms, in dogs who will be 
affected during their lifetimes.

pet-owners who breed for the first-time need to have a breed-mentor, also, to consult about the quality of their own dog, 
suggest complementary mates to create superior puppies who will meet or preferably exceed the quality of their sire or dam, 
help them thru the preg + whelping + rearing... 
U do realize that dogs average SIX pups, but a dozen is not rare - 
and thats a DOZEN pups who will need supplementary bottle feeding every 2-hours, 
as dogs have only 8 teats - and no guarantee that they all work? 
the largest litters ever born include 27 + 34 - each to ONE bitch, in ONE whelping.

U will have puppy-poop clean up for TWO * MONTHS till they are 8-WO, 
U must begin their socialization + habituation - they will need to live In Ur Home; 
they will need vet-exams at the very minimum, to ensure that all the parts are functional - 
hearts, lungs, palates to suckle; and any of them may need serious vet care (distemper, etc). 
if ONE puppy gets something highly-contagious, like a stomach virus, all of them will likely get it.

the dam needs pre-breeding screening; so does her prospective mate. 
she MAY need an emergency-Caesarian, which co$ts approx $1200. 
1,200.00 USD = 808.331 GBP (UK-pounds)

breeding her for any other reason than *breeding superlative puppies, from a superlative dam + stud, to improve the breed thru the combination of their excellent qualities * is IMO indefensible as a motive.

U also have to consider that the pups may not stay in their first-homes - 
what will U do if any pup-buyers call to return a pup of Ur breeding? 
will U take the pup back, at any time for any reason? *for the next 12 to 15 years?*

think about that. :huh: its a big commitment.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't have much advice to give..but I do want to just add to the advice on breeding her....if you think she's disobedient then imagine what she's like times up to ten.....if she had ten puppies you'll have to look after them when they're running round the house....not to mention all the hard work that goes into breeding.socialising...weaning...keeping them all out of the rubbish bin for the millionth time...you need to think it through seriously before you decide to mate her because it's so much harder than people think....don't think I'm being mean....it's just that it sounds like she can be a handfull....and if she has a large litter it really will be like looking after her again times however many pups she has.
By the sounds of it she's like many BC's....very intelligent....she needs lots of stimulating play....if you google stimulation play for dogs there's so much advice out there.....
Good luck
Clare xx


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Hi and welcome.



xile101 said:


> We usually keep her motivated with praise. when she comes back to us (sometimes) she gets a nice little cuddle and a "good giiirrrl!" we give her treats when we are training her tricks.


Coming back is a trick, we just assume it is a natural behaviour but it isn't. A dog wwon't sit just for the hell of it when it can stand or lie down when it can just sit, we have to train these cues and behaviours.

You say you give her a "Good girl!" when she comes back (rarely by the sounds of it) so you need to up the reason for her return. If I was to call you over, shake your hand and say "Well Done!" everytime you were doing something interesting, how long would it be when you realised it just isn;t worth the effort of trapsing all the way over just for a hand shake and a compliment? Not very long I would guess as there isn't much in it for you. How about evertime I called you and you came over I gave you £5? I bet you'd be dashing over to me in no time at full sprint to get your money, compliment and handshake but the money would be your reason coming over, the other stuff would be for my own feel good as we do feel good when we stroke our dogs but you can;t survive on strokes alone you need food or some dogs will work for play.

So when you are in the house, out and about with your long line or in the empty field carry some training treats in your pocket and just randomly call the dog's name and give your cue (command) to come to you i.e. "Dog Come!" and give the dog a treat. Start off in the house. Two minutes later "Dog. Come!" another treat is given to the dog. You will ahve to walk over to the dog or be near the dog to begin with but you will work up to the recall bit. TWo minutes later call and treat. Do this for about an hour in the house. Leave it for about 10-15mins and then call the dog again. This time stay where you are. Don't move but have your treat ready. Collies are smart so they will have learned that a treat is coming it's way but when you don't move the mind of the collie kicks into over drive "Hey, where's my treat?" and over they trot to see why you haven't given them a treat. Now you treat and good girl with loads of fuss. First succesful recal all be it in the same room but it's the exact behaviour you are asking for. IF I was training yuou in the house I would be using 50p as a treat at this point as the distraction level is minimal but it is still worth a treat.

*NB.* Don't make the mistake of whent he dog comes when called of making it sit and then treating as you are rewarding the sit and not the recall. Sit is a very low down requirement as far as safety is concerned here so just call the dog and when it gets to you reward immediately. Have a treat in your hand before the dog gets there so you can reward straight away without any delay.

Now you ave a dog that comes when called when you are in the same room on the same treats (50p). Fab. You now want to up the behaviour stakes and also the reward stakes (£1).
Buy some wafer thin ham or chicken from the supermarket (about £2 and you get loads of the stuff, plenty for a few training sesssions. If you use a ixture of ham and chicken during training it keeps the treat interesting as well) and go put the kettle on. If the dog hasn't followed you then bonus if it has then not to worry. Whilst the kettle is boiling for a nice relaxing cuppa, open the packet of meat when you get the milk and take out a few slices. Make your brew and go sit back down or if the dog hasn't followed you then call it. As soon as the dog gets to you give it half a slice of the meat (have it ready). If the dog followed you then sit down with your brew and wait for a while. Wait until the dog is just about focussed on something else such a chew toy or staring out of the window. Now call it and give it half a slice of the meat. 
When you were calling and treating every two minutes then the dog would not have too much time to focus fully on anything else before being interrupted nicely by you and a pleasant treat. Now however we allowed the dog get a little distracted but we have upped the reward for leaving the distraction or whatever they are doing and coming over. We have made it worth their while. Again leave the time gap about 5-10mins and then call the dog over from whatever it is doing. Half a slice of meat again. Do this until you have gone through about 5 slices of meat and repeat it over the course of a few days. Just do it whilst you are watching TV at the ad breaks as they are every 15mins or so so perfect opportunity.

At day five now and we are going to up the requirement stakes. YOu are going to do exactly as above with the half slices of meat but we aren't going to reward every recall. We are going to reward, mis one, reward two, mis one, reward one and then miss two and mix it up a bit. Doing this removes the expectation of the treat everytime and the dog has to try and up it's behaviour to try and get a treat. If I called you and gave you your £1 reward and then when I called you again you didn't get it you'd wonder why the heck not. Next time I called you you would do something different like walk a little fast, smile or do something to try and make me give you the £1. With a dog that usually results in a faster response. We are not talking Saturn 5 speeds here just a little quicker turn of the head or a faster middle section fo the recall distance. Reward. 
The next time I call you, because you did something a little differtent and got the treat, you will try it again and get another another treat. Whatever you did is now successfully working for you. The same goes for the dog. They turned quicker last time and got a treat so they will do it again and they get the treat for doing so.

Now depending on how bright your dog is and how quickly it learnes you can either reward the next one or not. If you don't then you can risk the response time dropping if you do then you could reward a slower response so you have to watch very carefully now for any changes you are presented with in order for the dog to win it's reward. These may be a quicker turn of the whole body, a quicker motion towards you or when you get outside a non-stop line towards you (some dogs will have a sniff on the way back before coming all the way. Very annoying) but you now need to be rewarding the good responses and not the comfort level ones. So if I was trainign you and after a while you got pretty good at coming over for £1 I stopped it and this time on your way over you brought me a coffee as I didn't reward you last time, why would I reward you from now on when you don't bring me a coffee? The standard of behaviour has slipped.

So you watched for changes in your dog's response and you are now rewarding the ones you deem as worthy as you see your perfect recall working, what about the duff trials that the dog sluggishly comes over for? Easy, you tell them it wasn't good enough. I'd tell you. "Sorry Xile but that response wasn't worthy of your reward." and I would not give you your £1. You do the same with the dog. Rubbish response is met with "Unlucky!" or "Not this time" whatever you want but say it in a game show tone where the contestants don't get the prize. The dog will pick up the tones and realise they are different to praise or cues (commands) so these tones become an indication of "you tried but you weren't fast, high, straight or low enough for you treat." - Must try harder next time.

So after a week or so of working on this in the house you progress to the garden or a deserted field. Garden is th eideal as it is still low-medium distraction as the smells are all those of the dog. An empty field would eb a medium distraction as there will be smells new to the dog that it wants to explore. If I was training you I would move up to a car park as there isn't much to look at - we use our eyes first and a dog uses it's nose.

The exact same procedure follows here. You treat ever response again. You haven't upped the treat, you haven't upped the requirement you have upped the distraction level. To prevent the dog going off for the first few sessions you are going have the dog on a leash or the long line but you are going to perform the training in different areas of the arena be it garden or field so the dog doesn't associate anything with one particular area in that place. If you are in an empty field I would suggest not taking the dog off of the long line but every training session extend the distance the dog can be from you and only move on once you have the coming ever time at the current distance. Sart at five feet and get 95%. Move to 7ft at 95%. Move to 9ft at 95% until you get the dog on the very edge of the long line distance and call it back 100%. Again you haven't upped the requirement you haven't upped the distraction level but you ahve upped the distance required and for this you need to up the treat level which I'll come to.

Once you have doen a few short sessions of rewarding every single response now move to the second stage of rewarding randomly for desired responses and not rewarding for sluggish performances.

If you're doing this in the garden now go for no leash at all and go back to the first steps of rewarding every response until you have it nailed. Then stage two again and then move from the garden to the empty field.

Upping the treat - If I paid you £1 for behaviour in a car park where there isn't anything really worth doing that is more rewarding than getting £1 then that is fair enough. If I move you to a shopping centre car park where there people coming and going ever so often then the distraction level is higher. Therefore you might forsake a few quid so you can interact with beings of the same species, look at the cars, listen to the engines, smell the fumes, look over the edge of the multistory to see the people going by below so I have to give you more motivation to listen and behave so I up the reward to £5. If you missed a few quid, now you are going to miss £15 which before would have required 15 correct responses to earn.
When you take you dog to a field there will be smells, sounds and it will be a place where the dog expects to be able to run around and do what it wants so you have to up the treat value. Now you could stick with the sane treat but in larger quantity - a full slice, but it still has the same virtual value. It would be like me upping your reward to £2 instead of £5. Worth it but still not a massive motivation. This is where the hot dog sausage comes out. Yum yum yum. Full of smell, flavour, calories and rubbish. Dogs love em. Cut them up into quarters to begin with on stage one of rewarding everytime and then down to halves on tage two of rewarding what you desire. Now becasue you are in an empty field on a long line there are loads of variables that you could change. My advice would be to do stage one and two at 5ft, 7ft, 9ft, 13ft and 15ft (depending on long line length). This way you are drilling into the dog that no matter what distance they are away it is worth their trouble to come when called.

Once you have the dog at 95% at maximum line length we are going to start playing a game. Just because you are allowing the dog 7ft or 15ft of line doesn't mean they have to be at that exact distance. You need to play a gomae with the dog to make it interesting for you and train you to become a more accurate and focussed trainer. The game you have to play is not let the dog get to the maximum allowed distance on the lead before they come back. This means you really have to switch on about what the dog does when it is getting distracted i.e. little ear twitches, focussed eyes, slight stoop (collie trait) and get your cue in before the dog moves on the next level of ditraction away from you. Every time you fail the dog gets a pig's ear. Everytime you win you get a better trained dog and better observation and sharper skills. Everyone is a winner with this game.

Once you are around 95% success rate at the maximum and are winning the games then you can up the distraction level. Not let the dog off leash.

Go to a park where there are likely to be people, bikes, runners, other dogs etc. This is where playing the game has honed your observation skills to enable you to watch what is going on and know what your dog is doing. Start at late evenings. The reason for this is that the park will get quieter as the evening draws on so less likely of a big distraction opportunity to try and contend with so the session WILL end on a positive note as there will be less to distarct the dog. Start at 5ft line length stage one and work you way up to The Game again. As int he filed and garden vary your place in the park to train, walk around etc so the dog doesn't associate the area witht he trainign the whole park is training.

Once you can play the game and win 95% of the time then you are going to go early morning so the distraction level starts low and gets med-high. Start at 5ft and if you fail more than three times in a row call it a day for that session. Don't get frustrated as the dog is only doing what comes natural, we are training something that doesn't. Work your way up to The Game with you winning at erly morning and then go for a few very short sessions of 7ft at the busy time in the park where distraction level is High. This time it is straight into half hot dogs.

Now go back to the field where the distraction level was med-high and make the dog sit. Drop the line. Don't unclip it just drop it. The drag the dog gets fromt he trailing lead at 15ft feels the saem when you don't have hold and the dog is 20ft away. That is a 5 foot distance from you and the handle of the lead. It feels familiar to the dog and will not switch her off. Now allow the dog the freedom of the field but you set the distance of when you want the dog to come back. It could be 8ft without holding the led, 10ft, 15ft, 18ft, 30ft whatever but you haven't got hold of the lead. So we have upped the distance so we need to up the value of return. Get some chicken legs or thighs and cook them. Flake off the chicken and this is your treat - the ultimate treat. This you £10 reward fro being able to go where you want but when I call you there is £10 in it for you to come back.
When you have 100% success rate at the empty filed then go to the park and go straight into The Game. Now drop the leash and play The Game without holding the leash so the maximum is 15ft. This will allow you to grab the lead if needs be as you will be aware of the majority possible distractions after it costing you a few pig's ears. Go back to the empty field and get the dog to sit. Unclip the leash. Allow free running. Now you have a recall at medium distraction and can up the level by going tot he park at evenings and then mornings again.



xile101 said:


> We may consider dog training classes but first i'll see what other advice from here i can get and i'll give it a go.
> We are in wales, cardiff.


YEs yes yes yes yes. Get yourself to training and the dog gets to socialise, play about etc but you will be working on the dog focussing on you rather than the other dogs which is a massive massive massive bonus!!!! People see training classes as a place to go to teach the basics but they hold so much more. It is like going to school for us. Sure we learn the curriculum but we learn social dynamics, manners and can interact.



xile101 said:


> *yeah uhh shifty people - yes ur right, i was vague on that. Only happened a few occasions. She is fine in the day time and doesn't see anyone as a threat but if it is late and some big guy walks past she goes into protective mode but not all the time. it is weird, maybe she can sense something, maybe cuz hes big, maybe cuz he stinks... i dont know but it isnt a big issue as it doesnt happen often.


My collies react the same to sudden happenings at night as the whole dynamics if how they see the worl changes. They have pretty good night vision so we look very different at night, plus there isn't so much background natural noise at night so things become a lot more crisp.



xile101 said:


> Question -- that is two replies saying do not breed. what is wrong with it? is it because it weakens them? is she too young? I dont understand.
> 
> u two have been very helpful so far. I shall take ur advice but I think the recall training is very important and i'll begin training as soon as i can.
> 
> btw katiefranke, tnx for the links. will read 'em soon.


What we are saying is that there are far too many collies out there that are in rescues and needing loving home sbecasue people get them and don't understand them and when a collie is bored they make their own games up which will not likely be favourable to their owners so they get abandoned. There are hundreds of unwanted pups born every month becasue people want to make a few quid etc but if you breed dogs right, if you breed them responsibly and lovingly then there is very little money to be made.

Yes collies can make wonderful pets, exercise partners and great sporting dogs (agility, fly ball etc) but they are meant to be working and do need something to do. Without anything to do the collie becomes problomatic, frustrated, hyper and then it is a real issue. Thsi results in the collie being rehomes to a home that understands their needs and there aren't many of those around. They may make a decent farm dog but they won;t be looked at very enthusiastically by farmers and competing sheep triallists won't even bother if they are not on the ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society register which isn;t like the KC the dogs parents and lineage needs to be on the register already or it can't ever get on.) so there are very very limited places that will suit a collie without it developing issues and being passed around. This means the vast majority are sadly detroyed, chained up or badly abused. Not a very happy story but a very true one.

Please do not breed from your dog. Advise people who want a collie to approach a rescue and rehome them as the average age of a rehomed collie is around 1yr old so not exactly an old dog. Incidently this is the same average age that the majority of collies are destroyed too.

Get your dog spayed, enjoy her and learn what she has to teach you about training.

Good luck with it all and any Q's drop a thread on here etc.

Hutch


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Wow Hutch, serious typing marathon! Thanks for explaining so clearly 

I have nothing to add except for a video from Jean Donaldson about motivation:

YouTube - Motivation in Dog Training


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

xile101 said:


> *- Question -- She dont have a harness, will her coller not do? she is pretty strong and will pull me even harder if she had a harness.


some great advice above about helping to train a reliable recall...the training line will help you to manage her runaway behaviour while you are training, but she wont need it forever.

it is best not to attach the line to the collar just in case it gets caught or you have to step on it etc to stop her running off as it wil give a very nasty jerk to her neck which could cause damage. on a normal lead they cannot run very far to build up momentum to the end to cause themselves so much damage but with a 10m line they could...therefore i always think that a harness is best.

still use a normal lead clipped to collar of head harness for walking, but when running about in the park, clip the long line to a harness for now, just to ensure she cant run off and is safe. this is the kind of harness i have: Fleece Lined Harness for dogs and cats


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

One of the ways I trained mine to do recall was to play hide and seek with them as collies are site dogs and seem to watch for impulse signals. Get someone to hold them while you hide then whistle call ( this I find is the best way for mine ) then reward with a tit bit when they find you. I found this was the quickest method of getting the dogs to aways look for me.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Why has this happened "several times"? 

Keep your dog on a long line until you have perfected recall - then move on to offlead in an enclosed space she CAN'T escape from.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Why has this happened "several times"?
> 
> Keep your dog on a long line until you have perfected recall - then move on to offlead in an enclosed space she CAN'T escape from.


Totally agree keep the dog on a long line, try doing recall in the house and in the garden, find a top treat she will only get when training her recall, make her want to come back to you, you have to be the best thing ever if not why should she come back, call her from the garden when she comes first time jackpot reward her good luck


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

an off-leash recall with distractions is the dog-equivalent of Post-Graduate level education - 
IOW after 12 years of school plus 4 years at college, and working toward a doctorate.

this dog has not even entered 6th grade  they have to be taught - and RECALL is not a one-step process. 
for good, well-written Step-By-Step instructions FREE, go to 
Index - look for LEVELS * TRAINING.

the free book contains every imaginable trained behavior, and *proofing* - which tests what the dog has actually learned - 
is a built-in part of the training process; U do not have to know how to train - it is all laid out, one step after another.

happy training, 
--- terry


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## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

Hi everyone. I just finished reading through all ur replies and I checked out the links. I gotta say, i am stunned from support of everyone here, especially Katiefranke and hutch - epic post hutch! I am so glad I signed up and came to u all for help. 

There are so many things I didnt know and now after reading it all I realise that she is like this because I have missed even the basics of training. I know now that the recall problem is the main thing i must concentrate on. I can see u put a lot of time an effort into that guide hutch and it was fun and interesting to read because it sort of made me think "yeah, that is would I would do if i was offered £5". So i will be using this as a guide. I can see how it works - the pattern so i will keep this in mind for further training if needed. After that I will move on to other things like impulse control. Katiefranke and LeashedforLife has linked a great website which I will follow from now on to train her. I tried to search on up dog training before I came to this forum but everywhere I go people are trying to sell me books.

About the breeding. I can see it is more difficult than i thought and i feel sorry for border collies as they are not an easy breed for a typical family so they just get passed on. The decision to breed her is not mine, it is my mum's but i will talk to her. They are not lucrative breed anyway so it makes no sense to breed her.

I'll be starting her training tomorrow. I'll even take a pic to show ya all how she has grown. 


Thank you everyone. This has been a big help!

@Katiefranke- nice avatar, that must be ur border collie? how old was he/she when he had fur like that? Sadie is 1.5 years and still has short fur, I will upload a pic tomorrow. Thanks.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

xile101 said:


> @Katiefranke- nice avatar, that must be ur border collie? how old was he/she when he had fur like that? Sadie is 1.5 years and still has short fur, I will upload a pic tomorrow.


*katie DOES have a beautiful BC -  even better, she;s a really, really good girl. 
but she wasn;t born that way :lol: *katie has busted her butt to make her into the young-dog she wanted, and still has more ahead - she wants to do agility, altho i don;t know if she hopes to seriously compete -

BCs can have long-coats, medium-coats usually with a hanging-plume tail, smooth-coats with no feather, and smooth-coats with short-feathers.

they can also have prick ears, semi-prick, drop ears, tipped ears, rose-ears (rare), or one of each of any of them :lol: they can be black + white, blue + white, red + white/AKA fawn, black + tan, tricolor, solid black (rare and not popular - sheepmen like white on their dogs), merle - red, blue, tri-black, tri-blue, tri-liver, tri-red; they can have ticking on their legs, tipping on the coat -

the classic Lassie-coat is a deep-fawn with black (sable) tipping the long-hairs on the color, white collar, feet, bib, tail-tip, muzzle-tip, and blaze; and often belly.

theres a GREAT book for seeing different colors, ears, etc - 
its an over-size hardcover by DK-publishing, something like *a year in the life of a dog*, *a dogs life*... its a group of BCs, one of whom is a drop-ear F who gets bred to a prick-eared M, and pix of the pups.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

xile101 said:


> @Katiefranke- nice avatar, that must be ur border collie? how old was he/she when he had fur like that? Sadie is 1.5 years and still has short fur, I will upload a pic tomorrow. Thanks.


hey xile101, maggie is about 11 months old in that piccie - she does actually have a pretty incredible coat for a young bitch especially. males normally have the bigger coats...but my maggie seems to have bucked the trend!!  she comes from a long line of rough-coated border collies, and i think she prob had the thickest coat of the litter. this is mags at about 12 weeks - see the colour...








and this is her at about 11 1/2 months - this is a good one of her coat, i love how its turning out  she is a blue & white and was very grey/blue as a baby (as above), but developing a lot darker and browner fur as she grows - she still doesnt have her full adult coat yet, so looking forward to seeing how she turns out eventually when its full-grown:









Looking forward to seeing piccies of your girlie and glad all the info we have posted is helpful!!


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## tasha15 (Feb 12, 2010)

i have been researching and apparently when you get them spayed their coat thickens up alot more is this true?


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

tasha15 said:


> i have been researching and apparently when you get them spayed their coat thickens up alot more is this true?


i think it completely depends on the indivual dog and when you get them done - when they are entire, they often blow their coat after their season, so it then takes some time to grow back again but is great when it is at its best.

then when they are spayed, full-coated breeds can find that the fur gets kind of thicker (not longer), but not always in a nice way - its more like fluff/thick dry undercoat...not the glossy topcoat.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

My Gypsy's coat has definately thickened since being spayed .. and if possible its gone even silkier to the touch


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Mese said:


> My Gypsy's coat has definately thickened since being spayed .. and if possible its gone even silkier to the touch


yeah maggies is lovely too - we had her spayed a little while ago - but i dont think her coat is anything to do with the spay, just how it was growing anyway.

i know that my friends bitch was spayed probably at the wrong time after her season when her coat was not at its best and it seemed to stay like it for ages and then when it grew back it was kind of weird and dry and the undercoat was a lot thicker than normal and was advised this was due to being spayed - they called it spay coat? she has a rough collie though (not BC).

there was a thread on here a while back about it - will go find it. a lot of people were talking about it happening to their bitches (bit like my friends dog) and they show their dogs, so hold off spaying until later because of this too.

as i said though, i think it really depends on the individual dog and when they actually get spayed - i guess if they are spayed at the right time might not have any affect?


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## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

Katiefranke, after seeing the picture of my border collie (Sadie) do u think she will grow fur as thick and wavy like urs or will she stay short fur. U said that is how maggie looked at 11 1/2 months and she has a lot of fur, does that mean Sadie will not grow anymore at her age? she is 1.5 years old.

Quick question:- while training her recall, can i still take her for walks on a short walking lead or must she remain in the house and garden until she is ready to go to the park?

[edit]
Oh my bad, just had another look at LeashedforLife's post on coats. So does this make Sadie a medium fur with no feather?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

xile101 said:


> ...does this make Sadie a medium fur with no feather?


i cannot see her tail, hun, but i would bet that her tail is a tube-shape of tapered hair, with no down-hanging fringe? 
or just a wee bit of stiffish (not silky) stand-off fringe about midway?

she has no feather that i can see on her forelegs, and minimal feather on her petticoats (where she sits) - 
i would describe her as a smooth-coat black-and-white with Irish-pattern markings (sox, bib, collar, blaze, tail-tip, nose-ring), 
a stocking on her right-fore, bi-color eyes, and prick ears. she;s handsome in her own way - they;re all different.  
if she is not lacking some essential nutrient, her coat is as it will be.

she does look very tense / a bit anxious in the driveway pic - 
was she waiting for U to throw a ball or toy? :huh: or is that her usual expression? 
[a lot of photographers get the dog to *look!* with a toy, squeaky, etc]


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## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

Ooh ok. I thought she hadn't grown her fur fully but i guess this is how she will be. I was hoping she'd grow more fur cuz it looks nice - like maggie.

ur right about her tail.

Irish ey? wow u know ur border collies hehe.

Yes she was tense as she was scared of me taking photos of her. she is always like this around a camera, i think it is the flash.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

xile101 said:


> Irish ey? wow u know ur border collies hehe.


Irish-pattern is the white-markings, hun - 
white feet, tail-tip, collar, bib, usually belly, often a blaze, sometimes a nose-ring... all white. 
[i don;t want to take credit for knowing something other than what i know... :lol: )

its a genetic color-pattern; there are colors: red, black, blue, buff, etc - 
and patterns: merle, dapple, ticked-coat, blanket, hooded, brindle, pied, etc. 
Irish is a pattern that puts white on the extremities + around the neck, down the chest - 
a full-collar is preferred, but broken-collars happen, too, where the non-white intrudes into the white-ring.

the white feet can be TOES or a toe, only; footlet; sock; stocking (stocking goes well-up toward the body). 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

if thats a pretty typical example of her body-language, hun, she;s a very worried dog, most of the time 

see this post - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much... 
for a wide variety of things that can help; any or all can be used, there is no concern about too much fuss. 
happy B-Mod, 
--- terry


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## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

> calmatives - i would use all 3:
> DAP pump-spray, liquid Rescue-Remedy AND lavender botanical-spray for bed-linens.
> the 1st 2 require no learning at all; the lavender-aromatherapy is simple, but needs Association
> with calm / quiet / safe periods to really hook the relax cue (the odor of lavender) to the dogs automatic response...
> ...


I dont understand, do u want me to wash the dogs bed in lavender and what is DAP?

I guess her behavior is weird but she has been like this since she was a pup. she was always hiding from us.

I started her recall training today and I can see how it is working. I will try again tonight when it is quite in the room. Little by little she is getting there. I just hope it all works.

p.s. please stop calling me 'hun', i am a guy .


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

oh sadie is lovely :001_wub: - she is a proper border collie! 

Love her eyes - makes her very distinctive-looking 

yes she is definitely a smooth-coat - she wont grow any longer fur now, although her coat could change in thickness/condition etc as she matures (but not length).

I didn't think she had irish markings though? - I don't know if maybe in the UK this is a different name? I thought Irish was much more white on the coat? Is it the same as white-factored terry? I know that maggie is white-factored (white extends unbroken from jaw, through chest, belly and down to all four paws) and so if we had ever intended to breed from her we would have needed to look for a non-white-factored dog or there would be the possibility that the resulting pups could have too much white on them (which could result in health problems if the white was on the head etc)...

Maggie also has a broken ruff on one side - I think it is quite pretty, makes her a bit different  ...but I know it isn't always desirable in a Border Collie.

*edit:* oh sorry, just googled it - here is an explanation for anyone interested in 'irish', 'piebald' etc: http://www.bordercolliecolors.com/bordercolliecolors.white.html


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

xile101 said:


> I dont understand, do u want me to wash the dogs bed in lavender and what is DAP? [snip]...
> p.s. please stop calling me 'hun', i am a guy .


hey, lyle! :--) 
the lavender-water is an ** association ** with calm settings, so U spray a spritz or 2 on her bed, or her fave-spot on the sofa, or on a cotton-ball and set it on the (solid) roof of her crate, or... 
it has to be associated for 5 to 7 nights of quiet sleep - spraying her bed once or 2x, or just into the air of the room, 
perhaps 15-mins before her bedtime. 
after that initial habituation, it can be taken on the road as a portable de-stressor - BUT it must be periodically refreshed 
as being a cue/present stimulus in calm, safe circs - otherwise it becomes a cue to GET Stressed, which is not the idea. 
[if it is a precursor/present Only In Stressful Circs, it becomes a predictor of stress + fear.]

lavender-water (botanical) is often sold in dept or bedding stores. its not expensive, but its not *synthetic* either.

DAP is Dog-Appeasing Pheromone - 
Dap Dog Appeasing Pheromone Spray 60ml 
it is for objects + surfaces - her COLLAR (off the dog, spritz, put back on...), bed, leash a hands-length from the clip just before a walk... etc.

have fun, 
--- terry


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

xile101 said:


> Quick question:- while training her recall, can i still take her for walks on a short walking lead or must she remain in the house and garden until she is ready to go to the park?


Yes of course - take her for walks as normal, either on her normal lead or in the park on the long line - so the only thing you dont do is allow her to run free completely off-lead until she is a little more reliable :thumbup:

A tip I was told is to tie knots every so often down the 10metre long line so that then if you leave it trailing while she is running around, you can step on it if she looks like she might run off and it wont slip under your foot as the knots will stop it!

Definitely don't reduce the amount of exercise she is getting if you think it is about right for her, or you will end up with a dog with excess energy and she will be even harder to train!


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## xile101 (May 10, 2010)

@katiefranke - sadie says thank you!

Yes i can see what u mean about the irish patterns, that link doesnt work for me at this time but i did search up some pictures of irish border collies and they look similar to sadie.

I read up that about white border collies too, that some farmers won't take a white border collie because they dont scare the sheep. Interesting, never thought of that.

About the walking thing, i also agree it is good to still walk her, i just wanted to make sure it was okay as it might have messed up her training.

The knot thing is a good idea, i'll do that when my line arrives, she should be ready to take on a quiet field then. i'll walk her close to me and train her in the house/garden until then.

@Leashedforlife
Oooh i see now. thanks, i'll take another look at the guide and try some things but the DAP is a rather expensive option. the lavender water sounds good. tesco might have it. i'll try different things and mix it up a bit.

cheers. it is a good guide.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

xile101 said:


> ...the DAP is a rather expensive option.


the lavender should help at night to get everybody [human + animal] to sleep quickly - adequate rest really helps anxiety.

once the cued-relaxation association is made, the lavender can be used in other situations than just settling to sleep. 
Rescue-Remedy can be used anywhere, anytime, for physical-trauma or emotional-distress.

if neither one (or both together) are not enuf, consider the DAP pump-spray. 
used as a cue to relax at home (take off collar, spritz, put back on dog), it can also go anywhere + be used anytime.

DAP / Dog-Appeasing Pheromone is a synthetic version of the pheromone made by a nursing-bitch - a dam who is lactating 
makes natural-DAP and releases it - the pups are calmed by inhaling / exposure; their pulse + respiration slow, their blood-pressure falls, salivary cortisol drops, adrenaline drops.

it is not *cheap* - but IME, there is nothing else that can do what DAP does. 
the 60-ml bottle does last a LONG time - each spritz is a dose, which lasts about 90-minutes.

if U think about it in terms of the co$t of a hands-on one-to-one trainer session, which may be 90-mins to 2-hours, and co$t $90 to $150, with a written follow-up. 
DAP can co$t as little as $25 with free shipping and handling, via the Internet. 
think of it as a trainer in a bottle, :lol:... to help with the DIY project.

adding a more-specific Bach-floral to the Rescue-Remedy (which is generic - for shock, stress, physical or emotional trauma, etc) can help, too - if that costs less, maybe U could try that first? 
check the symptom-descriptions for the other Bach-remedies - 
Healing Negative Emotions whit Bach Flower Remedies 
use 3 drops of the specific Added To 3 drops of the Rescue-Remedy for each dose, given by mouth on a single treat, or dripped directly into her flews for swallowing. 
*mimulus* might be very helpful - the Rescue-Remedy acts as a magnifier for the more-specific remedy.

cheers, 
--- terry


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