# Dont know what to do anymore (long post)



## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

This really isn't a thread I thought id write however I really don't know what to do anymore and feel im failing completely as a cat slave  Loki has a huge problem with other cats that seems to be getting worse and worse, although he isn't as bad with duchess as he is with strange cats their relationship has also deteriorated to the point they are now mostly separated (they have always been separated while we are out as loki has always been abit much for her.) I feel like he is no longer the happy cat he was and I don't know what to do to help him, this may be a long post  but I will do my best to explain what is happening and what we have tried to deal with it.

Firstly the relationship between Loki and duchess, they have always tolerated each other rather than been friends but they were mostly okay together. However over the last few months it has gotten worse and worse, If they are in the same room Loki constantly chases and pounces her, biting her neck etc. if she is on the cat tree he will run up and swipe her until she moves (there are plenty of other high up places accessible to him, he likes the bookcase, top of the fridge, cat shelves in the bedroom.) In the evenings they used to both sleep in their igloo beds in our room (we leave the door open so they can go in/out as they please) however now he will chase her under the bed and fight with her, so we now separate them overnight too. Throughout the day they choose to spend their time in separate rooms anyway, however we are now separating them most of the time as due to duchess being ill I don't want her to feel stressed.

Loki is very energetic and gets lots of playtime with us throughout the day, with wand toys where we run him until he's super tired, playing fetch etc. they also have lots of solo toys (cats meow, aquabot, hexbug, catit, all the usual mice balls etc.) that are rotated regularly, as well as being able to go out into the run in the daytime. He is on long term zylkene even though it seems to make no difference, and I reward any good behaviours towards duchess (being in the same room being calm, sitting near) with treats. We have also tried pet remedy, which had no effect. They are fed in separate rooms and have access to separate litter boxes in different parts of the house, although both will use either. When he chases her I try to distract him with a toy, if that doesn't work I move him to a different room. I just feel like they are never going to be happy together, and I don't know what else to do. Im thinking of trying a complete reintroduction, I have a spare room that is currently off limits to the cats, however I could set it up for loki and keep them completely separate for a slow reintroduction, however I feel there may be a few issues with this, one is how to know when to move the intros along, it seems to be suggested that its when they can see each other through a gap in the door with no hissing/puffing up, however they don't do this anyway, its the chasing and biting that's the problem. The second is that loki will hate being so cooped up, he is very loud and I know he will be howling at the door to get out (even with one of us in the room with him, which of course couldn't be 24/7.) 

The other problem is cats outside, mostly one specific cat, Loki loves to go out in his run, and every so often a fluffy ginger cat will venture into our garden to have a stand off with him, they cant hurt each other through the mesh but the noises are horrible and it winds loki up so badly, I spray the strange cat with a spray bottle when it comes into the garden but it keeps coming back, after shooing it off not so long ago I was coming into the house when loki ran in and into my leg, resulting in nasty bites and scratches, today the cat has been and after sending it away loki came running into the house and purposefully went for my leg, resulting in more bites and scratches (I know he only went for my leg due to being wound up, what I mean by purposefully is that he didn't accidentally collide with it like last time, he came in, saw my leg and went for it.) I try to stay well away from him when hes wound up, however I have to get the other cat away so have to go past the cat flap, when possible I shut loki in the house afterwards to prevent him seeing the cat again, however if he hasn't come in I leave him to avoid being injured.

We rent but had planned to ask about cat proofing the garden, however with duchess being unwell we have had huge vet bills and simply don't have any spare money. I have tried keeping him in but he gets very upset and is then even more awful to duchess, also he loves the run and I feel angry that I have to keep him in because of someone elses cat. We had talked about giving loki full outdoor access as we wondered if this would make him happier (I dislike the idea of him free roaming however if it would make him happy again we have considered it.) But I don't think we could even consider it as im sure he and this cat would end up in fights.

I just don't know where to go or what to do anymore, I suffer with depression/anxiety anyway and dealing with all this on top of duchess being ill is proving very difficult, im constantly crying and have actually though maybe they would be better off with other people (I couldn't really give them up, its just a horrible thought) I just feel like its constant and I cant think how to make it better, the other day I told OH that if we could afford a cattery id put loki in it for a week just for a break, then I felt terrible and cried all over again for being such a horrible owner. Im sorry for such a long post, I just really needed to get it all out, any and all suggestions of what we can do would be very welcome.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I have no advice, just wanted to give you a 'hug' and say that I hope you find a way to sort this all out. 

You are not a bad owner, you are doing all you can.


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Animallover26 said:


> I have no advice, just wanted to give you a 'hug' and say that I hope you find a way to sort this all out.
> 
> You are not a bad owner, you are doing all you can.


Thank you x


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Please don't feel sad your doing all the right things.

Couple of thoughts:

When Loki goes for Duchess how do you react? Maybe distractions are giving him the wrong message ie Chase Duchess and mum will play with you. My cat has got into the habit of meowing constantly ...up I was getting to deal with whatever I figured he wanted and he's got the message meow and up I get. So I'm trying aversion therapy:devil: when he meows I pick him straight up and carry him, that's not his idea of fun, so watch this space. Maybe giving Duchess lots of attention when Loki is being a silly with her may help. I also read somewhere that the bullied cat should be seen to be having plent attention from you to give the messge that you like her and therefore so should he Bit of a ramble that ...but you never know. 

Duchess hasn't been well so hasn't, I assume, been able to fight her corner as she may normally. 

With regard the other cat at the cat run. Turn Emmerdale up and ignore it for a while, chances are it will get bored and go and bother someone else. Just try and ignore as much as you reasonably can. Maybe screen off some of his view from the run? 

Don't give up I'm sure your cats will be fine in time. You've had a hard time and it's February it's no wonder you feel things are never going to turn a corner. 

The forum seems quiet at the mo but I'm sure there will be some more ideas and virtual hugs along soon  xx


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Thank you so much, I had started to wonder if he was doing it for attention, although often even when id try and play he wouldnt be interested, i now just pick him up and move him to another room, so ill carry on with that  She is so gentle she doesnt fight her corner even when well, she just meows until i rescue her, i do sometimes wonder if if she gave him a good bash hed back off! I must admit i havent tried ignoring the strange cat as when i hear them yowling at each other i run out to send it away!! 

I do wish they could speak english sometimes so they could tell you why they do things!!


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## ALR (Apr 16, 2014)

I'm wondering whether Loki is trying to ascertain his dominance over the ginger cat and Duchess. I'm not sure who would be the dominant cat between Loki and Duchess normally. But sometimes, when one cat is ill the other cat would sense that and try to be dominant. Some cats can be a bit clumsy when going about taking a more dominant position (some are smoother than others).

I think start by treating Loki as the dominant one. Put his food tray down first and Duchess second.

If it is a dominance issue, he should clam down as he's established that he's top cat. But the ginger cat antagonising him doesn't help. You could try those water spray deterrent but you'd have to make sure it misses Loki's run: PestBye Jet Spray Repeller Motion Activated Animal Deterrent: Amazon.co.uk: Garden & Outdoors


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Don't blame yourself - you will be worried about Duchess' health, about your finances, and about Loki's aggression - all of these take a toll of your energy and leave your nerves frazzled.

Of course you want a break from it. You want to get a rest yourself and probably give Duchess a bit of cosseting without Loki crying to be out, then squalling at the fence with his rival. You must be exhausted!

I think if you can find someone who will take Loki for a while, then it will do you all good and will enable you to get things back into proportion. I'm not suggesting that you part with him permanently - just as you say, a week or so so that you can get yourself on an even keel emotionally. It doesn't seem that this is practical atm, but it certainly doesn't mean that you are a cruel cat mammy to dream of it.


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

ALR said:


> I'm wondering whether Loki is trying to ascertain his dominance over the ginger cat and Duchess. I'm not sure who would be the dominant cat between Loki and Duchess normally. But sometimes, when one cat is ill the other cat would sense that and try to be dominant. Some cats can be a bit clumsy when going about taking a more dominant position (some are smoother than others).
> 
> I think start by treating Loki as the dominant one. Put his food tray down first and Duchess second.
> 
> If it is a dominance issue, he should clam down as he's established that he's top cat. But the ginger cat antagonising him doesn't help. You could try those water spray deterrent but you'd have to make sure it misses Loki's run: PestBye Jet Spray Repeller Motion Activated Animal Deterrent: Amazon.co.uk: Garden & Outdoors


I agree that your first plan of action should be keeping the ginger cat out of your garden. A couple of those deterrent jet sprays would be a fab idea.

There isn't that sort of hierarchy in cats, they either work as one social group of split into more than one group. Here Loki and Duchess have spilt into two social groups. Loki's behaviour is territorial rather than dominant, he feels threatened by the intruder cat. His stress levels will be very high and this can cause issues within already established cat groups and territories within the home.

So sorry to hear about all this Sophie, I can understand completely about it getting on top of you, it all sounds very stressful.


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## Britt (May 18, 2014)

You've had a lot on your plate with Duchess being unwell. Don't blame yourself, Sophie, you're doing your best for Loki. I know how difficult it is to keep an. Intruder" out of your garden. I've been there myself. Pooh didn't have a run so he fought pretty badly with the other cat a few times and at the end the intruder ran away. He still comes back once in a while but not every day like before. When that happens Poih is a different cat, hissing at me because he is edgy.
Big hugs xxx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sophiebee, I am so sorry to hear you are having such a difficult time at the moment. I sympathise and understand very well how upsetting it can be when there is a situation between one's cats that seems unresolvable. I have been in that position myself, and in the end made the decision to keep the aggressive male separate all the time from my other boys, for the sake of everyone's peace of mind. 

It may the case that Loki, like my boy, just does not want to share his territory with other cats at all. Ultimately you might need to bite the bullet and keep Loki and Duchess separate permanently. Not ideal I know, but for me it was a better option than rehoming the problem cat. Cats can adjust to each having a smaller indoor territory. 

Meanwhile, as Duchess is unwell, I agree Loki needs to be kept away from her 24/7. Duchess needs to feel she is somewhere safe Loki can't get to her. Particularly important if stress is a factor in her current health issues. (Stress can be enormously harmful to cat's health) So I would advise dividing the house up now, so each cat has their own half of the house. As Loki likes his run, then maybe he should have the downstairs half.

If you still have hope the two cats can at some stage be integrated to live peaceably together with no bullying from Loki, then I would go for a full size door, made of framed chicken wire (mine is a cheap DIY job), hung on a frame made of 2 by 1 timber. Fit the door at the top or the bottom of the stairs, so each cat has half the house. The cats will be able to see each other but not have any contact. 

When Duchess is better you could start the integration process by feeding the two cats either side of the wire door, and keep this up for weeks before there is any direct contact allowed. There is just a chance that Loki may become more accepting of Duchess this way. 

However, if you do manage to progress to the point of feeling it is safe to put the cats together again at some future stage, it should be on the basis of zero tolerance of Loki attacking, biting, or chasing Duchess, or pestering her in any way. Any signs of it, and I think you'd have to seriously consider keeping the 2 cats separate all the time. It would be vital for Duchess's well being. 

With regard to the visiting ginger cat, I agree it would be best if you could ignore the arguments between him and Loki when Loki is in his run. However, the caterwauling of both is likely to continue simply because the 2 cats cannot get at each other i.e. both cats are posturing to each other! If they had contact it is possible one would back down. However I am not advocating allowing Loki out to roam, as there may be the most vicious fight seeing as he and Ginger been winding each other up for a while!  

Loki might be better if he had the whole garden to command, but as it is not an option for the moment to make it escape proof, it is better he stays in his run, until you are able to cat proof the garden.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh no - I'm so sorry to read this hun 

Many bits of your post are very familiar to me

Archie & Mia were never the best of friends but did tolerate each other for a few years

It's Mia's absolute hate of other cats that was really the final straw in their relationship - she'd see them outside & go nuts and he'd hear her doing that horrible wail they do when they're going to fight, think she was going to attack him and strike first  it's horrid, very stressful (both human and cat) and upsetting

As you know, my 2 are totally separated now - it's not ideal but it is workable

With Duchess being ill, I wonder if it's worth separating them for a while to let her recover and then re-starting introductions _very slowly_ (I think I seem to remember these were done quite quickly the 1st time round?) and seeing how it goes?


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Thank you everyone, had a manic afternoon taking duchess for her check up (ill update on her thread later, if you arent all sick of hearing from me!) and food shopping, but i have read every reply and am so grateful to you all for your support and kindness. 

Thank you so much lostbear, i felt like such an awful person for thinking it, but had it been possible i certainly would have considered it, if only because im strugglig to cope atm and it makes me less use to either of them. 

Britt i know exacrly what you mean, he is like a different cat when the ginger one is around, luckily he calms down quickly and came to give me a lovely cuddle this afternoon (making me feel awful all over again )

Chillminx thank you, i think seperating them for now is certainly best, i will talk to OH about cat friendly-ing the spare room, which will involve moving some things to the loft, and relocating our little hamster to somewhere safe, as well as adding lots of cat stuff (luckily they have plenty!) as well as seeing if we can get some sort of upstairs/downstairs door going on. I would hope to reintigrate them very slowly, as although this workable at the moment OH and i want to start a family, which will mean the spare room would be an off limits nursery, making upstairs quite small (its a two bedroom house) cat proofing is certainly on the list as soon as we can possibly afford it.

Lilylass i actually thought of you when typing this, as i was wondering if a set up similar to yours could work for us, you are right, as all went so well when they first met introductions were far too quick, and i now wonder if if i hadnt rushed it things would be better  luckily they dont really fight terribly nastily (no yowling, growling, or fur flying) with each other, it is just loki chasing her down and then biting her neck, so im clinging to a little bit of hope that we can get back to a stage of at least tolerating each other.


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time on top of Duchess being I'll. I think Chillminx' s advice is excellent, here's hoping you will be able to reintegrate the successfully at some point.

Big hugs, and please don't feel like a bad mum xxx


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sophiebee said:


> Lilylass i actually thought of you when typing this, as i was wondering if a set up similar to yours could work for us, you are right, as all went so well when they first met introductions were far too quick, and i now wonder if if i hadnt rushed it things would be better  luckily they dont really fight terribly nastily (no yowling, growling, or fur flying) with each other, it is just loki chasing her down and then biting her neck, so im clinging to a little bit of hope that we can get back to a stage of at least tolerating each other.


Oh dear, I hope that didn't come across wrong and I made you feel worse  I wasn't being critical, just meaning that as it'd gone well, they'd maybe not really allowed themselves to properly adjust to the other being there iykwim

Mia / Archie were separated several times & successfully reintroduced (before the cats moved in next door) so I do honestly believe that in most cases this can be done - having been through what I have with them probably does make me more wary and I'd always say slowly does it - they've all the time in the world and it's better to always have a quick 'greet and meet' that goes well and builds for the next (slightly longer) one.

I'm sure the cat outside will be a big contributor in how Loki's feeling - does he see it out the windows when he's in - or is it only when he's in his run?

If when he's in the house, I wonder if some of the opaque film you put over the windows might help?

CM suggested this to me and I still have it on my patio doors (even though Mia is now venturing out now & then ) as it means when she's in she can't really see everytime next doors cats walk past the door!

This sort of stuff - I just chose this one as the pic gives a great illustration of how much it really can help - you can get it cheaper with a bit of hunting around!

Whiteout Opaque Window Film | Day and Night Privacy Film


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> Oh dear, I hope that didn't come across wrong and I made you feel worse  I wasn't being critical, just meaning that as it'd gone well, they'd maybe not really allowed themselves to properly adjust to the other being there iykwim
> 
> Mia / Archie were separated several times & successfully reintroduced (before the cats moved in next door) so I do honestly believe that in most cases this can be done - having been through what I have with them probably does make me more wary and I'd always say slowly does it - they've all the time in the world and it's better to always have a quick 'greet and meet' that goes well and builds for the next (slightly longer) one.
> 
> ...


Its okay it didnt come cross like that at all, its something ive already been thinking that maybe its my fault as id rushed it abit  He can only see the cat when in the run or the conservatory, so only when we are at home and in the daytime as in the evenings and when we are out i lock the conservatory door, the conservatory has blinds so i can close them if hes in there, he mostly just goes through there to the cat flap though.

For now i am keeping hope that with a nice slow approach it can be done, although if not we will go back to looking at another solution


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

We are in the process of cattyfying the spare room and will be starting the full seperation from this weekend (they are already seperate most of the time anyway but we want to do it properly,) its easier to start at the weekend as we are both around to spend plebty of time with them both, i dont want loki to feel hes being shut out or punished in any way  

I do have some questions about the process though  I plan to use the large spare room as lokis base room, but swap them around so loki can have some downstairs/outside time in the day, is this ok and do i need to make sure they dont see each other during the swap? (this is doable duchess sleeps in my room most of the day anyway so i can shut the door whilst i take loki downstairs then let her out to have upstairs.) In the evenings i will then swap back as duchess normally spends them in the lounge with us while loki potters around the house, so im hoping doing it this way will keep sort of in with a routine they already have. At what point do i allow supervised contact? I want to take it slowly but am unsure how to know when to proceed I was thinking maybe short play sessions together (with seperate wand toys) at first, then seperate them and feed. Im also worried loki will be unhappy as he dislikes closed doors, so even though ill be spending plenty of time with him are there any other tips to reduce his stress? He will get plenty of time out of the spare room too as when we go out duchess has the large living room and loki the rest of the house, so ill continue with that so he isnt shut in all the time.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Hi only just catching up with this thread. Sorry to hear you have so much on your plate. 
Have you ever used Zylkene? I give it to my Leo sometimes to help him calm down. Maybe Loki can have some to relax as it seems that ginger tom gets on his nerves. 
And I wish Duchess a full and speedy recovery!


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> Hi only just catching up with this thread. Sorry to hear you have so much on your plate.
> Have you ever used Zylkene? I give it to my Leo sometimes to help him calm down. Maybe Loki can have some to relax as it seems that ginger tom gets on his nerves.
> And I wish Duchess a full and speedy recovery!


Thank you he is actually on zylkene long term although it doesnt really seem to help him much  hoping the re-intro will help and i will be having another think about how to keep ginger away until we can cat proof (auto water sprayers arent possible as we only have decking and no outside tap, cant use anything smelly etc, as my two wont enjoy being out then!!)


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sophiebee said:


> We are in the process of cattyfying the spare room and will be starting the full seperation from this weekend (they are already seperate most of the time anyway but we want to do it properly,) its easier to start at the weekend as we are both around to spend plebty of time with them both, i dont want loki to feel hes being shut out or punished in any way
> 
> I do have some questions about the process though  I plan to use the large spare room as lokis base room, but swap them around so loki can have some downstairs/outside time in the day, is this ok and do i need to make sure they dont see each other during the swap? (this is doable duchess sleeps in my room most of the day anyway so i can shut the door whilst i take loki downstairs then let her out to have upstairs.) In the evenings i will then swap back as duchess normally spends them in the lounge with us while loki potters around the house, so im hoping doing it this way will keep sort of in with a routine they already have. At what point do i allow supervised contact? I want to take it slowly but am unsure how to know when to proceed I was thinking maybe short play sessions together (with seperate wand toys) at first, then seperate them and feed. Im also worried loki will be unhappy as he dislikes closed doors, so even though ill be spending plenty of time with him are there any other tips to reduce his stress? He will get plenty of time out of the spare room too as when we go out duchess has the large living room and loki the rest of the house, so ill continue with that so he isnt shut in all the time.


Your plan sounds a good one Sophie, as it will fit in with the routine they have already established. I think it will be OK for them to see each other during the swap over, even a good thing perhaps, but be guided by how the cats react to each other. I assume you would be carrying one cat, so there would be no chance of Loki attacking Duchess during the swap-over.

As for how soon to allow supervised contact I would not even plan it until Duchess is completely better, and hopefully back to her old self. For now I think she needs a good break from Loki to bring down her stress levels and recover her health.

Rather than suddenly putting the two cats together again at a future stage, albeit supervised, it would be better IMO if they could spend a period being able to see each other without contact. This would be where the see-through door comes in useful (framed chicken wire, full height door so they can't jump over it).

The cats being able to see each other without direct contact appears, IME, to establish each cat's ownership of the territory in their part of the house.

If you can make this arrangement with the wire door, I'd let them interact with the wire between them for a couple of weeks, i.e. for several weeks after Duchess is back to full health. You would be the one to judge whether a shorter or longer period is required before you can allow them direct contact.

Once you start allowing them direct supervised contact by all means see if you can get them both involved in a short game with you, preferably a game where there's no chasing involved, so that it does not prompt Loki to start chasing Duchess. Then separate them to their own 'quarters' and feed them.

With regard to Loki not liking closed doors, you may have a slight problem there. Two of my cats hate closed doors, and often won't accept it unless I am in the same room with them. Even then they fuss sometimes. I don't really have a solution other than sticking firmly to your plan, so that Loki will eventually adapt to the new routine. The time he may really object I'd think is when you are all in the living room and he is shut out. In which case it may be necessary for one of you to keep him company for part of the evenings to prevent him feeling rejected.

I have been thinking some more about your garden invader (Ginger), and in the light of Lilylass's experience with her Mia, I think Loki's behaviour may well be in part due to him being very wound up by Ginger. Loki is frustrated because he can't get at Ginger to chase him off his territory, so he misdirects all his annoyance on to Duchess. Hence the dominance reaction (jumping on her, biting her neck etc) which is not unusual from one cat to another in the same household where there are territorial issues.

If this is the case then it would be important keep Ginger out of the garden as much as possible. Cat proofing the fences would be the ideal, but if this is not possible then I'd certainly block Loki's view of the back garden from the downstairs windows. When he goes out in his enclosure perhaps you could go out in the garden first to check Ginger is not around, and if he is then spray him with a water pistol to chase him away.

In a change-of-heart from what I said before, if you hear Loki caterwauling in his enclosure I'd go out and chase away any strange cats, as at least it would prevent Loki becoming so wound up and stressed.


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

chillminx said:


> Your plan sounds a good one Sophie, as it will fit in with the routine they have already established. I think it will be OK for them to see each other during the swap over, even a good thing perhaps, but be guided by how the cats react to each other. I assume you would be carrying one cat, so there would be no chance of Loki attacking Duchess during the swap-over.
> 
> As for how soon to allow supervised contact I would not even plan it until Duchess is completely better, and hopefully back to her old self. For now I think she needs a good break from Loki to bring down her stress levels and recover her health.
> 
> ...


Thank you, this is so helpful  I am planning to divide my time between the two of them (and when OH is home to be with one each as much as possible) the last thing i want is for loki to feel rejected or pushed out. I will see what we can do about a temporay door, we rent so have to be careful! I think your theory may be right as even though we lived in a much smaller place before here their relationship was much better (although they have never been best friends) Very keen to get cat proofing done as soon as we can afford it as if this is the case hopefully it should help.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

SB just had a wee thought - I don't know if you've looked at Royal Canin calm food

I know its dry which isn't ideal but it has the same thing in as zyklene to 'calm' them

From experience I know it can get quite expensive to have 1 or 2 of them on zyklene long term (even using the bigger capsules & splitting it) - Mia was on zyklene for over a year!

She now gets a very small handful am & pm (must weigh it but its really a small amount) and its always eaten (prob as that's the only dry she gets now ) and it does seem to work just as well

Archie has free access to it (he picks at food so I know he won't just gorge on it) and can go say a week without eating any and then eats a fair bit in a day - almost as if he knows it helps  maybe the smell?

The 2kg bags are fairly expensive but the 4kg ones much more reasonable - and last ages if stored in an airtight container Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Calm | Free P&P £29+ at zooplus!

If you want to give it a try, let me know and I can easily post you some for them to try (in case they won't eat it). Hth


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> SB just had a wee thought - I don't know if you've looked at Royal Canin calm food
> 
> I know its dry which isn't ideal but it has the same thing in as zyklene to 'calm' them
> 
> ...


Thank you lilylass, thats so kind, do you find it makes a difference to mia at all? As to be honest i dont think the zylkene makes any difference to loki, I have looked for other similar products but am never sure whats actually any good or not


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Absolutely positive it makes a difference to her 

I wasn't sure if it would work so gave her the zyklene & RC Calm for about a week and gradually reduced the Zyklene - and didn't notice any difference so stopped the Z totally

I'd say her moods are much more stable now  even on the Z she would have 'iffy' days fairly frequently but def not as often now

Whether that's to do with the product or the fact that she didn't eat all her wet all the time (which the Z was mixed into) whereas the dry is always gone, I don't know 

She had a 'blip' a few weeks ago & I added a bit of Z back into her wet (on top of the Calm) for a week or so and then stopped it again (I think she may have run into next doors cats when out) and she's been fine since 


I've just been and put out her evening meal & took my scales 

It's actually even less than I thought! 

I'd say she's having about 25g between the 2 meals :blink: (I couldn't believe it when I weighed and it only came to 12g :smile

That does make sense though as the last 4kg bag lasted between 4 & 5 months - so with the bit Archie eats now & then that does add up


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I've re-read the notes I took last January when a cat behaviour expert visited us to advise how to introduce Daisy to Leo. So an interesting bit is about the eye contact. The tip I found in there is to break the eye contact between two cats if they aren't on best terms and sit staring at each other. Staring is the sign of aggression  So I used cushions and even placemats to intervene in such situations. 

Even the other day I grabbed a sheet of paper and placed it in between them when it seemed they were looking at each other for too long without blinking. Daisy and Leo didn't have a tiff for ages and last night they even slept sharing the same blanket


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Third day of seperation today... Im finding it quite difficult  it seems that they both dislike a closed door, and will both sit outside it, especially if we go in or out and they see each other, its odd really but its almost like they want to be together (I had thought Duchess especially would be happy with the peace but she seems to look for loki too.) Loki will meow at the door even if i am in the same part of the house as him and it breaks my heart  I am hoping its just because they arent used to it and that they will get better as they adjust but at the moment its hard, i also feel constantly guilty about whichever one i have left on their own, even though i am splitting my time between them. 

We did change the plan slightly, so if i give a run down of what we are doing hopefully someone can say if its right or offer tips to make it easier. The living room (and conservatory/run) is being used as a 'base room' as its where we spend most time.

Morning- Loki in living room/run, Duchess rest of the house, i feed them, have breakfast with loki, then go for a shower/to get ready and spend some time with duchess

Afternoon- If i am home then they stay where they are, i potter doing housework etc. And am up and down splitting my time between them and play with them both seperately. If i go out duchess has the living room and loki the rest of the house, as this is their usual set up when we are out.

Tea time- At tea time we swap them over, OH gets home and takes loki upstairs for a good run with his wand toy (again a usual routine) I play with duchess in the living room then they both have their tea, we eat our own tea then one of us goes to spend some time with loki, the other stays wih duchess.

Evening- this depends on who is sleeping in the bedroom with us, they both used to so i am currently alternating it as i hate the thought of completely excluding one of them. If Duchess is sleeping with us we swap them and spend some time with loki in the living room before bed, if loki is sleeping with us then we spend time with duchess until bedtime, they both get a good run with a wand toy (seperately) evening meal and logic, then one comes in the bedroom with us (along with a litter tray) and we shut the door, the other has the rest of the house.

Its actually been nice not constantly being 'on guard' to police any chasing, but it is difficult when they desperately want in/out of wherever they are (I have tried swapping them when they do this but it makes no difference, they then just do the same the other side of the door )


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

The situation you've described seems very familiar. IMO you've taken the right steps. Well around this time last year I tried to introduce Daisy to Leo. We followed a fairly similar routine to yours. My hubby and I even slept in separate bedrooms to keep our kitties company 

So how about some additional scent swapping? A cat behaviour expert advised us to give our cats smaller portions in the morning so they ate their food and licked the bowl. Then I had to swap the bowls without cleaning them and put more food in. Saliva is very fragrant and by exchanging saliva cats learn to recognise and accept each other. I actually used this trick with bowl swapping more than once a day. In our case it definitely helped with introductions. Perhaps this could help with re-introduction too


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

More of the same today, they seemed more okay through the daytime but the evenings are so hard as they just want to be on the other side of the door!!


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Oh Sophiebee, I can't believe I've missed this thread..

I'm so sorry to read what you are going through.

I just want to echo Lilylass if I can and say Royal Canin Calm has made a huge difference to Huck's over grooming and to all three during the intros of Little H. I expected Huck to start over grooming again but he hasn't.

I have actually combined giving them Zylkene (in wet food) and the Royal Canin Calm dry.

I'm also used Pet remedy diffusers and Feliways. Pet remedy for calming and feliway for happy thoughts in all the main rooms.

AND I've used a beaphar spot on calm as well..lasts about 2-3 weeks.

https://fetch.co.uk/beaphar-calming-spoton-cat-3-x-4ml-266181011?gclid=CILXwsKZ6sMCFcfMtAod008AlQ

I just wonder whether a combination of the above might help Loki feel a little more relaxed?


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

I really dont have any advice. Just, dont feel sad. It sounds like Loki is trying to be dominating. But, you shouldnt blame yourself at all. Keep the ginger cat out of your garden. It sounds like you have a lot going on right now. Im very sorry you are going through this now. Im just very sorry. So, so sorry. Please dont feel like you need to take any of my advice. Im sorry Ive come in so late on this thread. I think you have a good plan. Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Calm Formula Dry Cat Food would be a good choice. I think it would make a big difference. It contains hydrolyzed milk protein and Tryptophan to maintain feline emotional balance. You may also want to ring a feline behaviorist. Ive been in a similar situation. Again, Im sorry Ive come in so late.


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> Oh Sophiebee, I can't believe I've missed this thread..
> 
> I'm so sorry to read what you are going through.
> 
> ...


Thank you, i think we will be giving the RC a try, maybe with the zylkene at first then reduce that down to just the RC, we have tried pet remedy in the past but it did nothing for them, but maybe we should give feliway a go too.

I dont know for sure but i think think some of his problem comes from his early life, he was born on a farm and raised totally outdoors and came to us at just 8weeks, and i think he missed some important 'cat' lessons from his siblings and mum, he doesnt really seem to understand cat language, even the way he interacts with us is just slightly different from duchess/other cats.


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## Andyreww (Feb 17, 2015)

Hi Sophie 

I'm afraid I don't have any advice to offer, as I haven't been in the situation you're in. But, I just wanted to send you some cyber hugs and love, and hope that your situation is resolved in the best possible manner soon. 
My motto is "You can't have rainbows without a little rain", as my signature says. Nothing stays horrible forever. 

Stay strong and good luck


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

I can't add any advice but just wanted to say how much I admire all the effort you are putting in to make this better. I really hope it works out for you all.


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

Thank you both, they seem to have adjusted to the seperation now, although there are still meows at the door! Just hoping when the time is right a reintroduction will go smoothly.


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## jazzye (Jan 1, 2015)

Hi Sophie. I've just caught up with this thread and just wanted to say that I hope things are working out. I'm by no means an expert as I've always been a dog person and Z (our kitty) has only been with us a few months, but I have been reading non stop about cat behaviour to learn as much as possible and what you're doing sounds great, just be patient. Z and our dog V are living in harmony (though I was terrified that they wouldn't accept eachother) and though sometimes get on eachothers nerves and there's a little tension they actually spend most of the time living peacefully and even playing together. It's hard because V is ten and just wants to relax and Z is a baby and just wants to play, but giving them clear boundaries and routines is important so they can have time together but also get away from eachother when they want to.
Everyone has given great advice, but just in case it may help, have you watched Jackson Galaxy's "My cat from hell"? It's a programme on TV (I watch it on You Tube) and some episodes are FANTASTIC and full of advice about reintroducing cats.
Good luck xxx


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sophiebee said:


> I dont know for sure but i think think some of his problem comes from his early life, he was born on a farm and raised totally outdoors and came to us at just 8weeks, and i think he missed some important 'cat' lessons from his siblings and mum, he doesnt really seem to understand cat language, even the way he interacts with us is just slightly different from duchess/other cats.


Mmmm thats quite interesting - i hand reared both Archie & Mia from very young ages

Archie is pretty well adjusted but i lived in the farm cottages when he was young so he was used to seeing lots of other cats from a young age - Mia probably never saw any tbh so that could also be part of why she's so terrified of them


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