# help please..very worried



## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

hi all i got a female fluffy cat from a refuge about a year ago now the cat centre provided a document saying she was vaccinated and desexed... she came into animal welfares hands from a very mean family who bashed the poor cat and did not feed her at all so she was very skinny and malnutritioned .... i got her back to proper health and mental health and is a very loving family cat but she is half the size of a normal cat due to being malnutritioned for the first 6 months... but in the last week i noticed her belly was alot bigger than usual i thought she may have had worms so i wormed her and her belly stayed bigger and now i can feel kittens moving and her nipples quite large and she has colostrum .... what is going on she was ment to of been desexed ... how close would she be to be having her kittens

thanks heaps ...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well she obviously wasn't neutered but I guess you worked that out!

If there is milk then the birth is very close. The sign that it is about to happen is that she will start urgently looking for somewhere to have the kittens.

Enjoy!

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> hi all i got a female fluffy cat from a refuge about a year ago now the cat centre provided a document saying she was vaccinated and desexed... she came into animal welfares hands from a very mean family who bashed the poor cat and did not feed her at all so she was very skinny and malnutritioned .... i got her back to proper health and mental health and is a very loving family cat but she is half the size of a normal cat due to being malnutritioned for the first 6 months... but in the last week i noticed her belly was alot bigger than usual i thought she may have had worms so i wormed her and her belly stayed bigger and now i can feel kittens moving and her nipples quite large and she has colostrum .... what is going on she was ment to of been desexed ... how close would she be to be having her kittens
> 
> thanks heaps ...


I would advice you to get in touch a.s.a.p with the charity you rehomed her from. They should pay for a vet visit to see how far along the pregnancy is.

If she still has weeks to go, you should be offered the option of aborting the unborn kittens (their costs, not yours). But this choice will only be yours if the pregnancy isn't that far along. Or because of her small size maybe other rules will apply. Definitely see a vet soon.

The least they can do (the charity you got her from) under the circumstances, is provide you with all the help you need.

It may also be a possibility that they offer to to give the mother cat temporarily (+- 3 months) to a feline foster family so they would rear the kittens with the mother and return the mother to you after the kittens are rehomed.

Whatever you decided, I would be making sure this charity footed the bill, unless you can afford to do so (comfortably) yourself. Kittens cost a lot of money. They need flea & worm treatments, they need vaccinations, they need a check-over by a vet.

If you are going forward with this pregnancy, start feeding the mother cat up. She can eat what she liks when she likes. Dry food to snack on in between meals... lots of high protein wet foods, frequent meat treats, kitten milk etc.

I do think you need to see a vet though because of this cat's size. If she is genuinely only around 2 kilos.... this could be very complicated.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

If you can feel the kittens moving around she is atleast 7 weeks and you could have kittens anytime in the next two weeks so its now far to late for her to be spayed and have the kittens removed .


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

David C said:


> If you can feel the kittens moving around she is atleast 7 weeks and you could have kittens anytime in the next two weeks so its now far to late for her to be spayed and have the kittens removed .


Are you sure about that? Bearing in mind we are talking about a severely growth stunted cat?

Dont get me wrong, I dont _know_ the answer but I somehow doubt "normal rules" will apply if this mother cat is 2 kilos or under.

Its not unusual for a growth stunted adult females to weigh 1500grams or less. A female like this, mated with a normal (say) 4.5 kilo male I could well imagine her life could be so under threat that a vet would decide to perform a very later neuter/abortion.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

my girl is around 2.5 kgs i have no idea what went over her as she spends 1 hour every day outside and its pretty much always 1 hour... rang vet and vet will not spay this far along in pregnancy i have been advised to sue the company which i got her from as she was ment to of been desexed and came with a cert saying she was so im guessing it was a forged one they have also shut down 3 months ago and cannot track the owner so will keep searching .... she has milk forming her ducts are very noticeable now.... i guess i will just have to put aside money for a Csection incase


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Mummyof2... are you in the UK or the US (or somewhere altogether different)... just trying to think if any other feline charities could help you out here. This a terrible situation your find yourself in, and it's not your fault. Maybe if you're in the UK someone in here would know of a cat-charity you could turn to for some form of help (paractiacal and/or financial). 

In the meantime, if I was you I would be ....

- feeding up the mother cat
- getting a birthing box ready
- getting a birthing kit ready
- making a list of things needed should the mother cat (for whatever reason) not be able to assume care of the kittens
- liasing with a vet
- reading up on the whole birthing process and handrearing process

(in short: hope for the best but prepare for the worst) 

I wish you and your cat all the very best !!


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

thank you very much TJE and im in australia i found this forum when breeding my bitch and was helped alot i know what to do was just very worried for the fact she is only a small girl i have funds i can put away for emergencys lets just hope i do not need them .... i have attempted to shave her belly as shes very fluffy and can hardly see her nipples but she wouldnt have a bar of it lolthanks all for your help i will keep you all updated


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I thought she was only 6 weeks old and a dog killed her parents at 3 weeks old??


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I thought she was only 6 weeks old and a dog killed her parents at 3 weeks old??


seeing as the OP's username is mummy of 2, I think she has two cats, a kitten she got very recently, and this cat which she rehomed a year ago.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Chez87 said:


> seeing as the OP's username is mummy of 2, I think she has two cats, a kitten she got very recently, and this cat which she rehomed a year ago.


And doggy makes three


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

buffie said:


> And doggy makes three


In which case I have no idea. :lol:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

David C said:


> If you can feel the kittens moving around she is atleast 7 weeks and you could have kittens anytime in the next two weeks so its now far to late for her to be spayed and have the kittens removed .


Not necessarily David. I felt movement much earlier than 7 weeks in my girl, though it did mean spending a long time with my hand resting on her to feel the odd little kick or roll.

However if she is producing milk I would say it's close. Though again, with her being so small and malnourished she could be producing milk early too.

OP ~ given that you say she is so small, how did you fail to notice her belly getting big? If she is that small you will have seen her pregnant belly developing weeks and weeks ago ... you would have had time then to get her spayed 

Nothing you can do now though by the sounds of it  I'd definitely save for a possible c-section, and get her to a vet to be checked over. Then he/she will be prepared if a c-section is needed and will be familiar with your cat at least.

How old is she btw? Have you never heard her call, especially if as you say she only goes out an hour a day?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Chez87 said:


> In which case I have no idea. :lol:


Nor me Just thought I would throw that in to the mix


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Chez87 said:


> seeing as the OP's username is mummy of 2, I think she has two cats, a kitten she got very recently, and this cat which she rehomed a year ago.


buts shes talking about the one she just rehomed........so its 6 weeks old goes out a hour a day and is 7 weeks pregnant?! im confused! :crazy:


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> buts shes talking about the one she just rehomed........so its 6 weeks old goes out a hour a day and is 7 weeks pregnant?! im confused! :crazy:


Nooo read it again, it says she rehomed it about a year ago!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

buffie said:


> And doggy makes three


Perhaps kids?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Perhaps kids?


Now that is just confusing the whole thing  :lol::lol:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

buffie said:


> Now that is just confusing the whole thing  :lol::lol:


:lol: i mean she might have 2 children?


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

what an awfull situation maybe if you stck a pick of the cats tummy on here people could tell u. you sure shes pregnant?! lol sounds stupid i know...xx


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> :lol: i mean she might have 2 children?


Ahh I see


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> :lol: i mean she might have 2 children?


its funny how we all automatically assume that it would mean animals rather than humans. :lol:


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Chez87 said:


> its funny how we all automatically assume that it would mean animals rather than humans. :lol:


Well they are more important are they not(even my daughter will agree on that)


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> what an awfull situation maybe if you stck a pick of the cats tummy on here people could tell u. you sure shes pregnant?! lol sounds stupid i know...xx


people keep asking if my girls pregnant, im like 'no shes jsut eaten 2 cans of food....' you would think shes 9weeks gone looking at her belly! shes so slender it makes it worse!! :scared:


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

ok here goes first is my username is my 2 daughter 5 and 2 years of age... i do have 2 cats one that is now 7 weeks old and her mother was killed so i took her in... the second who is around 2 years old ... i also have 2 rottweilers.. mummy and son ...



Aurelia said:


> Not necessarily David. I felt movement much earlier than 7 weeks in my girl, though it did mean spending a long time with my hand resting on her to feel the odd little kick or roll.
> 
> However if she is producing milk I would say it's close. Though again, with her being so small and malnourished she could be producing milk early too.
> 
> ...


i have no idea what a call sounds like as i have never owned a full female and the cat in question was ment to have been spayed i was given FAKE documentation from the organisation she came from which they are now being investigated by police .... she was well fed by me which would mean she always had a round belly so no i did not notice untill now and also due to her being very fluffy and also when i did notice the round belly around a weeek ago i thought worms so i wormed her which did not help who would think pregnancy if she was ment to have been spayed

hope that answers all confusion lol i started getting confused myself hehe


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

When a cat is in call, there really is no mistaking it. They practically scream and wander around doing it. Also she would have been posturing (lifting her bum when you fuss her, and padding her back legs at the same time). OK, some queens have silent calls, but rarely, and I think it's mostly when an entire male is around, as she doesn't need to call then as he is right there. 

Are you going to take her to the vet? She may well need a decent wormer for pregnant queens, not sure what wormer you used but some are dangerous to pregnant queens.

Also please don't shave her belly unless you need to after the birth. My girl plucked her hair in the last few days before the birth mostly. So you hopefully wont need to at all.

What a sad situation  I just hope your girl comes out of this OK.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

i got the wormer from my vets it says on bottle its safe for pregnant queens....
she did make 1 funny meow but that was it i thought she was hurt so raced outside but she was fine i also never seen any other cat around so i have no idea who the father is 

and thankyou for your kind words =)


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

ok so the girl at the back is the pregnant one cant get a pic of her belly yet as she wont lay still for me she in playful mode lol


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

She really is small


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

looking at the size of her I'm going to be very very blunt here.


Get her speyed NOW


Due to her size, history and no idea the size of stud she should be speyed immediatly. As she is lactating already then its fairly safe to assume she is due within the next 7 days (no hard and fast rules on that though, she could easily have another 3 weeks to go!). During the spey as the kittens are delivered they will be euthanised immediatly so that they dont suffer. You have no idea if her size could also be down to a genetic condition, and thats just not something i would risk with a litter.

I know thats probably not what you want to hear, but it comes from the heart. I dont take speying while pregnant as a flippant thing, its serious but sometimes the safest and kindest option all round.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

the size is due to being very malnutritioned for the first 6 months of her life ... i really dont have the heart to kill kittens that could well be perfectly fine if she is due within the next week or 2 i really could not do it ... i have funds available if any medical help is needed money is definately not a issue for me ... my local vet said he would not spay her and euthanised the kittens because she has no medical condition


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> ... i really dont have the heart to kill kittens that could well be perfectly fine if she is due within the next week or 2 i really could not do it ... i have funds available if any medical help is needed money is definately not a issue for me ... my local vet said he would not spay her and euthanised the kittens because she has no medical condition


do you have the heart to watch your queen die or suffer?

The very least I would be doing is running this by a vet who actually knows what stunted growth is and the implications birth could have on the queen.

Not all vets sing from the same hymn sheet. Not by a long chalk. And not all vets will even have experience of this.

I don't have experience of this (stunted growth queens mating with normal sized males). I did have 4 very small females (deliberately bred to be tiny) they were cats who came into the shelter and I fostered them. They were not strong enough to be neutered.... the vet was petrified one or more were already pregnant and I had to be extra vigilant watching for signs of pregnancy (becuase we knew they had lived together with their unneutered brother brother prior to coming into the shelter).

This vet's reaction... well it told me enough.... if one of my tiny-tots had been pregnant I know the vet would have neutered/aborted, even though she felt they were not strong enough for neuter... she obviously felt it would have been the lesser of two evils for the cat.

And what BBM said about genetics.... I had never even tought of that. But it is an excellent point!

Again, it's your shout... and I think your mind is made up that you definitely don't want an abortion/neuter. But I think you owe it to your queen to get a second opinion from a vet who is actually experienced with this condition, and with birthing in this condition.

My own vet (the vet I use for my own two pampered moggies) he'll know next to nothing about a case like this... our shelter vets - they see this type of thing a LOT more, and simply are far better qualified to advise on cases like this.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> When a cat is in call, there really is no mistaking it. They practically scream and wander around doing it. Also she would have been posturing (lifting her bum when you fuss her, and padding her back legs at the same time). OK, some queens have silent calls, but rarely, and I think it's mostly when an entire male is around, as she doesn't need to call then as he is right there.


I have missed calls several times. I realise that when you have an indoor cat in full call it seems unbelievable that anyone could ever miss it, but when cats go out, I assure you from (past) experience that it is entirely possible to miss it even when you have seen it many times before.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Plenty of small cats give birth without any difficulties. There is no way I would be asking for a spay in these circumstances. You must make sure you are there for the birth though! As long as you are there and are able to get straight to the vet for an emergency caesarean if things are difficult, I don't see any reason to panic.

Spaying at this stage would be exactly the same operation as a caesarean but with much more danger because of the amount of blood that is in the uterus. Furthermore the kittens by now are almost certainly viable (they cannot be more than a few days away if the cat is producing milk) but with the difference that the cat's hormones will not have kicked in sufficiently for her to want to feed the kittens. So the vet will destroy the lot - assuming he opens up the uterus at all (I am happy to accept Tje's word for it that this is normal practice, I've never asked, I regard the whole idea of killing full term kittens as utterly obnoxious and only to be considered in extreme welfare situations). It's totally unnecessary in this case. I realise shelters do this but a lot of those are dealing with serious issues of overpopulation and lack of funds and foster carers. This lady is not in that situation, she is willing and able to take the cat for a caesarean if needed. 

My advice - just watch the cat very closely indeed, and get on here for advice if you need to!

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

ok, You have made up your mind not to spey - she is your cat and the decision is up to you.

I do want to point out that the same shelter who told you her size was due to malnurishment is also the same shelter who told you she was speyed - i would take what they say with a big pinch of salt. There are several reasons for stunted growth, ranging from malnutrition to genetic to disease related.... simply you do not know!

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

For the benefit of the thread I want to point out some extra risks associated with queens of stunted growth (whether that be from a genetic dwarfism, or through environmental factors).


1 - The kittens of a stunted queen are likely to be average sized (unless the condition is genetic and either dominant or she is mated to another male carrying the gene). This puts ALOT of stress on the internal organs as there simply isnt as much space.

2 - the queens lungs can become compressed, meaning that breathing becomes difficult, and less oxygen circulates. The result of this can mean stillbirth for kittens as the placenta fails, and respiratory arrest and death for the queen.

3 - Lack of blood oxygen will mean that the internal organs suffer e.g kidneys and liver cannot function properly and can start to fail.

4 - due to smaller space premature delivery is a very real possibility. Caring for very premature kittens is 9/10 heartbreakingly futile.

5 - distocia (stuck kitten) is a VERY high risk due to the smaller birth canal and pelvis. This requires emergency treatment to save the queen, as most often the kitten will die during the struggle.

6 - malnurishment for kittens and mother. A tiny sized queen cannot (without help) take in sufficient nutrients to support healthy kittens. Several studies have been made on cats who were fed lower than normal rations (to mimic stunted growth or for other reasons)... all kittens had various behavioural and developmental delays. Another study also showed that kittens who were born to previously malnurished queens went on to show the same range of problems!

7 - Lactation support may be needed if the queen cannot supply enough to meet kittens demands.

Now i realise that these are risks and not guarentees, but i wanted to point them out for the members here and for the general public who can read these forum without being members. Hopefully it will give someone some insight as to exactly what they are risking breeding such a tiny cat.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> Plenty of small cats give birth without any difficulties. There is no way I would be asking for a spay in these circumstances. You must make sure you are there for the birth though! As long as you are there and are able to get straight to the vet for an emergency caesarean if things are difficult, I don't see any reason to panic.
> 
> Spaying at this stage would be exactly the same operation as a caesarean but with much more danger because of the amount of blood that is in the uterus. Furthermore the kittens by now are almost certainly viable (they cannot be more than a few days away if the cat is producing milk) but with the difference that the cat's hormones will not have kicked in sufficiently for her to want to feed the kittens. So the vet will destroy the lot - assuming he opens up the uterus at all (I am happy to accept Tje's word for it that this is normal practice, I've never asked, I regard the whole idea of killing full term kittens as utterly obnoxious and only to be considered in extreme welfare situations). It's totally unnecessary in this case. I realise shelters do this but a lot of those are dealing with serious issues of overpopulation and lack of funds and foster carers. This lady is not in that situation, she is willing and able to take the cat for a caesarean if needed.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry liz but i completely disagree, this queen is the size of a 6 month old kitten!!!!

The welfare implications and risks of complications are HUGE!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Liz,

Can I just correct something here for the record. You said

_"I realise shelters do this but a lot of those are dealing with serious issues of overpopulation and lack of funds and foster carers."_

This is absolutely *not* the case in our shelter! They/we have a *very strict no-euthanasia policy*. Its a policy I happen to have major problems supporting, but it is a policy that *is* strictly adhered to. No cat is ever euthanized except in extreme cases of pain. No matter how expensive a treatment is they are treated (again, not a policy I always agree with).

I can assure you the 4 stunted growth cats I referred to above, if one or more had turned out to be pregnant, they would have been neutered/aborted. *Not* because of a shortage of foster carers or a shortage of money. They would have been aborted/neutered because a team of 3 vets (experienced in problematic cases like this) would have agreed it was in the best interest of the cat to do so. And I would have wholeheartedly agreed with them. Holding those tiny little bundles of adult cats in my arms I shudder to think what impact a 4.5 kilo cat impregnating them would have had, or how the kittens would have turned out.

I know you are always anti-abortion in any of these types of threads Liz. And I do respect that. But where the health of the queen and the kittens is in question sorry, but you really should leave your own anti-abortion feelings out of the equation.

And can you please back up your claims of _plenty of small cats give birth with no difficulties_. Do you have any actual experience of 2 kilo queens Liz? Do you know this for a fact? How much experience do you have of 2 kilo queens giving birth?

(I know the OP said her cat was around 2.5 kilos but using my eyes and experience, around 2.5 kilos often translates to 2 kilos on the actual scales).

I dont know a lot about tea cup breeding its a subject I cant stand and steer well clear of, but when I did delve into that world (purely for research purposes) plenty of small queens were having *MAJOR* problems. And I do mean *MAJOR*. Of course these queens would generally have been mated with a mini-male too, and I suppose I can see that would be both a possible advantage and disadvantage.

I just wonder Liz  I have been in rescue probably as long as you have been in breeding. If I am not coming across 2 kilos queens in rescue circles often enough to make an informed decision on whats best, how the heck are you coming across this is breeding circles?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I'm sorry liz but i completely disagree, this queen is the size of a 6 month old kitten!!!!
> 
> The welfare implications and risks of complications are HUGE!


Thank you for posting the risks (do you by any chance have any links to vet studies on this?). Most of these risks have already happened, this queen is surely in the very last stages, we are not talking here about making a foolhardy decision to breed from a very undersized queen but one that is already carrying near full term kittens. The remaining risks are getting stuck - yes, that is why the OP needs to be very vigilant and the cat may need a caesarean, or lack of milk - and malnourishment, in other words the OP may end up supplementing the kittens.

The other risks have already happened and the cat has survived.

Don't forget that before the days when everyone had their cats spayed, queens would have naturally started calling in their first Spring, many of these would have been very small and yet presumably (because kitten drowning would not have been the norm otherwise) the majority carried their litters to term without dropping dead first. And in many parts of the world, this is still the norm now.

Liz


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

she is almost 3 kilos i only have scales that go up in .5kg and its between 2.5kg and 3kg that was when she was not pregnant it was 3 months ago when she was wormed i do agree that she may have dificulty having kittens but i myself do not agree in abortion .... put yourself in this case say you were a tiny female 45kgs impregnated by a guy 80kgs + would you abort your unborn baby .... i do have funds i am not poor i will and can afford a C section if the pregnancy wasnt so far along i would spay now but it is far to close to birth to do that


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

When i read the initial post i was only skip reading as i was busy and didnt see the part about the stunted growth , sorry , but TBH if the queen is now producing milk these babys are only a few days away from parturition so far to late for a termination but no reason why an elective C section couldnt take place in the next couple of days or certainly as soon as you notice the queen in labour take her straight for a C section .

Keep a very close eye on her over the next few days and check her vulva constantly for being wet and the initial mucus disschage and then as soon as you see this get her straight to the vets .


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I know you are always anti-abortion in any of these types of threads Liz. And I do respect that. But where the health of the queen and the kittens is in question sorry, but you really should leave your own anti-abortion feelings out of the equation.


My vet told me once that spaying a cat at the same time as a caesarean was risky and should only be done in emergency situations - that was when I actually asked for the cat to be spayed because I didn't want to breed from her again. If carrying to term is risky, and spaying is risky, you are weighing up one risk against another. The OP's vet has seen the cat concerned, our vets have not. Perhaps we should trust the judgment of the OP's vet. As for the health of the kittens - well, killing them certainly damages their health!



> And can you please back up your claims of _plenty of small cats give birth with no difficulties_. Do you have any actual experience of 2 kilo queens Liz? Do you know this for a fact? How much experience do you have of 2 kilo queens giving birth?


You have only to look at the moggy population! I do not know how much my girls weigh. I certainly had a small one give birth successfully in the summer, but how much she weighed, I don't know. I guess many people would have thought she was only a half-grown kitten because she is a small breed.



> I dont know a lot about tea cup breeding its a subject I cant stand and steer well clear of, but when I did delve into that world (purely for research purposes) plenty of small queens were having *MAJOR* problems. And I do mean *MAJOR*. Of course these queens would generally have been mated with a mini-male too, and I suppose I can see that would be both a possible advantage and disadvantage.


I'd like a reference to these studies if you have one, please?



> I just wonder Liz  I have been in rescue probably as long as you have been in breeding. If I am not coming across 2 kilos queens in rescue circles often enough to make an informed decision on whats best, how the heck are you coming across this is breeding circles?


Many pedigree cats are much smaller than moggies! Don't forget it's really the size that is important, not the weight. Persians, for example, weigh very much less than Burmese of the same size.

Liz


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

thank you everyone for your support i am watcjing her very closely i only recently went through the breeding with my dog she was 34kg and the stud is 80kgs and everything went smoothly besides she developed mastitis very very early as i checked her everyday ... i do watch very closely she sleeps beside me, follows me everywhere i will go to vet clinic tomorrow and get all the supplies needed and see what the my vet says about booking in for a C section prior to birth she is a healthy cat now just small cause of the malnutrition for the first 6 months of her life... it is not genetic as her mother was at the same welfare clinic i got baby from and she was a normal sized cat not sure about father though...

i know you are all looking out for the welfare of the queen but i also now need to look out for the welfare of the unborn kittens as i did the unborn puppes of my bitch a few months ago


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mummyxofx2 said:


> she is almost 3 kilos i only have scales that go up in .5kg and its between 2.5kg and 3kg that was when she was not pregnant it was 3 months ago when she was wormed i do agree that she may have dificulty having kittens but i myself do not agree in abortion .... put yourself in this case say you were a tiny female 45kgs impregnated by a guy 80kgs + would you abort your unborn baby .... i do have funds i am not poor i will and can afford a C section if the pregnancy wasnt so far along i would spay now but it is far to close to birth to do that


That honestly doesn't sound too bad a weight to me, normal adult weight is only 4kg. I shouldn't worry too much, keep a very close eye on her but I bet it will all go smoothly. You will keep us updated won't you?!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

David C said:


> these babys are only a few days away from parturition so far to late for a termination but no reason why an elective C section couldnt take place in the next couple of days or certainly as soon as you notice the queen in labour take her straight for a C section .
> 
> Keep a very close eye on her over the next few days and check her vulva constantly for being wet and the initial mucus disschage and then as soon as you see this get her straight to the vets .


Yes that's another option and might be worth considering if you manage to catch her when she's about to start, especially if you are lucky enough for it to be during the day! Look out for nesting behaviour.

Liz


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

yes i will definately keep you update she has been licking her nipples alot tonight her vulva looks normal and no sign of any discharge ... she was only 960gms when i got her at 6 months old my 7 week old kitten is 580gms so she was very very small i fed her up gradually and she reached the weight of 2.5-3.0kg at the age of almost 2


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

what are the nesting signs and does the temp drop work with cats as it does with dogs


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

Mummyxofx2 you posted the other day on a thread when you kitty was ill



> its 9.30pm here and no after hours vet within 3 hours of me on a sunday


This is recipe for disaster if she goes into labour and then it takes 3 hours to get to the nearest vet.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> I have missed calls several times. I realise that when you have an indoor cat in full call it seems unbelievable that anyone could ever miss it, but when cats go out, I assure you from (past) experience that it is entirely possible to miss it even when you have seen it many times before.
> 
> Liz


Liz she said her girl went out for 1 hour a day maximum. Not all day.

I am alarmed at what you say though ... so potentially you are passing off kittens as peds, when in fact you let your queens out, and have 'missed' it when they call? :confused1:



lizward said:


> Plenty of small cats give birth without any difficulties. There is no way I would be asking for a spay in these circumstances. You must make sure you are there for the birth though! As long as you are there and are able to get straight to the vet for an emergency caesarean if things are difficult, I don't see any reason to panic.
> 
> Spaying at this stage would be exactly the same operation as a caesarean but with much more danger because of the amount of blood that is in the uterus. Furthermore the kittens by now are almost certainly viable (they cannot be more than a few days away if the cat is producing milk) but with the difference that the cat's hormones will not have kicked in sufficiently for her to want to feed the kittens. So the vet will destroy the lot - assuming he opens up the uterus at all (I am happy to accept Tje's word for it that this is normal practice, I've never asked, I regard the whole idea of killing full term kittens as utterly obnoxious and only to be considered in extreme welfare situations). It's totally unnecessary in this case. I realise shelters do this but a lot of those are dealing with serious issues of overpopulation and lack of funds and foster carers. This lady is not in that situation, she is willing and able to take the cat for a caesarean if needed.
> 
> ...


    I really really wish you wouldn't do this Liz.
..................

OP, the picture of your girl ... She not only looks small, but she also looks abnormal to me  It may make you sick to the stomach to even think of aborting the kittens, but do you really want to take the risk of bringing unhealthy kittens into the world that (best case scenario) grow to be the same as mum? Possibly then getting homed to someone who 'forgets' to spay and have the cycle continue?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mummyxofx2 said:


> what are the nesting signs and does the temp drop work with cats as it does with dogs


Yes the temperature drops within 24 hours. nestign signs - simply, she starts looking urgently for a place to have the kittens. It's fairly unmistakeable. However in your case there is something that will tell you even more clearly. The cat will try to take the kitten into the nest with her, she will desperately want the kitten with her - often this goes on for several hours even after she has had her own kittens. You'd be best to keep the kitten away if you possibly can though, otherwise she will take all the colostrum which the newborns will need.

Liz


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

ummmm how does my girl look abnormal???? please do explain



GreyHare said:


> Mummyxofx2 you posted the other day on a thread when you kitty was ill
> 
> This is recipe for disaster if she goes into labour and then it takes 3 hours to get to the nearest vet.


yes the nearest is 3 hours drive but my vet is a half a hours drive and does not work sundays and is on holidays till 2 days time so could not see him i took my 7 week kitten to vet the very next morning and she is now on antiBs and is much better


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GreyHare said:


> This is recipe for disaster if she goes into labour and then it takes 3 hours to get to the nearest vet.


That isn't good news I agree and might be a good indicator for a planned caesarean, if only you knew exactly when the kittens were due.

Liz


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes the temperature drops within 24 hours. nestign signs - simply, she starts looking urgently for a place to have the kittens. It's fairly unmistakeable. However in your case there is something that will tell you even more clearly. The cat will try to take the kitten into the nest with her, she will desperately want the kitten with her - often this goes on for several hours even after she has had her own kittens. You'd be best to keep the kitten away if you possibly can though, otherwise she will take all the colostrum which the newborns will need.
> 
> Liz


thank you very much ... kitten doesnt seemed interested in her milk or her at all really and baby will lay beside her and cuddle but thats about it for now im almost finished making theoutside cat run so ill try keep kitten away from baby as much as possible


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> I am alarmed at what you say though ... so potentially you are passing off kittens as peds, when in fact you let your queens out, and have 'missed' it when they call? :confused1:


I just knew you'd start along these lines, which was why I specified "past". I have been breeding since 1992. Yes I have had accidents during that time. No I have not sold my accidents off as pedigrees!



> I really really wish you wouldn't do this Liz.


If you want me to join the "aaagh, pregnancy is the most dangerous thing in the world, spay your cat right now - unless of course you happen to have a pedigree in which case we'll all support you" lobby, you are going to be unlucky. I have explained my reasoning. Spaying in very late pregnancy is risky, caesareans are LESS risky. The OP has taken her cat to a vet who is qualified, you are not as far as I know. I am not. I think trusting the vet is not a totally unreasonable option!



> OP, the picture of your girl ... She not only looks small, but she also looks abnormal to me  It may make you sick to the stomach to even think of aborting the kittens, but do you really want to take the risk of bringing unhealthy kittens into the world that (best case scenario) grow to be the same as mum? Possibly then getting homed to someone who 'forgets' to spay and have the cycle continue?


I assume the OP's vet has checked the cat over and would have noticed any serious abnormalities.

Liz


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

Just a thought could this be a phantom pregnancy? as if she had been spayed but a small amount of tissue is left behind they can still call can't they' so could this be a case of that maybe.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> The OP's vet has seen the cat concerned, our vets have not. Perhaps we should trust the judgment of the OP's vet. As for the health of the kittens - well, killing them certainly damages their health!


Liz, as far as I'm aware OP has not even taken the cat to a vet, just talked to some 'associated vet' (so not even a flipping vet) online. EDIT: sorry got my threads confused for a moment there, the online vet was the kitten with flea's thread :lol:



lizward said:


> You have only to look at the moggy population! * I do not know how much my girls weigh.* I certainly had a small one give birth successfully in the summer, but how much she weighed, I don't know. I guess many people would have thought she was only a half-grown kitten because she is a small breed.


You don't weigh your queens? :confused1:



lizward said:


> Many pedigree cats are much smaller than moggies! Don't forget it's really the size that is important, not the weight. Persians, for example, weigh very much less than Burmese of the same size.
> 
> Liz


This is of course correct. So now would you like to read the thread again Liz. Find a sentence somewhere that says the cat was mated to another of similar size, and not the local 8kg tom.  I think you'll find the OP has no clue who the stud was.



mummyxofx2 said:


> thank you everyone for your support i am watcjing her very closely i only recently went through the breeding with my dog she was 34kg and the stud is 80kgs and everything went smoothly besides she developed mastitis very very early as i checked her everyday ... i do watch very closely she sleeps beside me, follows me everywhere i will go to vet clinic tomorrow and get all the supplies needed and see what the my vet says about booking in for a C section prior to birth she is a healthy cat now just small cause of the malnutrition for the first 6 months of her life... it *is not genetic *as her mother was at the same welfare clinic i got baby from and she was a normal sized cat not *sure about father though*...
> 
> i know you are all looking out for the welfare of the queen but i also now need to look out for the welfare of the unborn kittens as i did the unborn puppes of my bitch a few months ago


I'm sorry but unless you have paid for the proper test to be done for hereditary conditions, such as dwarfism, you can't possibly know that. Some conditions don't present themselves in every kitten born, but they could carry the gene responsible and give birth to kittens with the condition. Liz will be able to confirm that as she herself has bred cats/kittens with genetic conditions.



mummyxofx2 said:


> yes i will definately keep you update she has been licking her nipples alot tonight her vulva looks normal and no sign of any discharge ... she was only 960gms when i got her at 6 months old my 7 week old kitten is 580gms so she was very very small i fed her up gradually and she reached the weight of 2.5-3.0kg at the age of almost 2


So the other kitten in the picture is also underweight?  this just gets worse! and I'm sorry but I do not believe she weighs that. My 2 6 month olds are huge in comparison to your cat and they weigh just over 3kg. My queen also weighs just over 3.5kg and she is also huge in comparison yet is a slender cat.

You don't have time to sit on your hands, you need to get her to a vet within the next couple of hours. I won't push for you to get her spayed, it's pointless and I respect your views on it. But you do need her to be in veterinary care IMO until she can have a c-section. Especially if you do not have an out of hours vet close to you.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

GreyHare said:


> Just a thought could this be a phantom pregnancy? as if she had been spayed but a small amount of tissue is left behind they can still call can't they' so could this be a case of that maybe.


can you feel kittens move with a phantom???
taking to vet tomorrow so hopefully will get better answers


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

If you can feel the kittens moving , kicking and rolling around it is not a phantom, you cant feel movement with a phantom .
Your vet knows what is going on , your taking her to be checked again tomorrow , he is the one who is qualified to deal with whatever happens to her , your doing all you can now , make sure she is getting plenty of good quality food , keep a very close eye on her as you are doing then you can let your vet know as soon as labour starts and get her in for a C section if this is what he advises .


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> can you feel kittens move with a phantom???
> taking to vet tomorrow so hopefully will get better answers


Oh sorry I didn't realise you could feel them I thought you just suspectedit due to to weight gain and nipples.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> I just knew you'd start along these lines, which was why I specified "past". I have been breeding since 1992. Yes I have had accidents during that time. No I have not sold my accidents off as pedigrees!


But you do still let your queens roam the streets right? I'm sure I saw you say that somewhere fairly recently.



lizward said:


> If you want me to join the "aaagh, pregnancy is the most dangerous thing in the world, spay your cat right now - unless of course you happen to have a pedigree in which case we'll all support you" lobby, you are going to be unlucky. I have explained my reasoning. Spaying in very late pregnancy is risky, caesareans are LESS risky. *The OP has taken her cat to a vet who is qualified, you are not as far as I know. I am not. I think trusting the vet is not a totally unreasonable option!*
> 
> I assume the OP's vet has checked the cat over and would have noticed any serious abnormalities.
> 
> Liz


The OP clearly has NOT taken her to a vet. Also you are right, I am not a qualified vet like you are NOT. But you have given her advice that could be dangerous for her cat ... Try not to worry, monitor her etc ... 



GreyHare said:


> Just a thought could this be a phantom pregnancy? as if she had been spayed but a small amount of tissue is left behind they can still call can't they' so could this be a case of that maybe.


I had hoped this initially, but the OP said she felt the kittens move


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

i do have a after hours vet close but not on sundays ... the 7 week old kitten was at the vets last week and is not underweight she was weighed there for the antiBs so i know that she is not under weight and baby the queen in question is between the 2.5kg and 3kg mark weighed on 2 different scales so do not tell me what my cat weighs by a bloody picture i will buy digital scales tomorrow and weigh her and take a picture so you can see how much she weighs... she has been to a vet just not since i have realised she is pregnant which was only a few days ago... bshe is going tomorrow


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

GreyHare said:


> Oh sorry I didn't realise you could feel them I thought you just suspectedit due to to weight gain and nipples.


thats ok =)


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I'd like a reference to these studies if you have one, please?Liz


Liz,

They werent formal studies, they were my own informal research.

I found myself with 4 adult dwarf cats and very little knowledge of them. I tried to contact breeders who breed these cats deliberately, but its a very protected world and they dont take too kindly too scrutiny from outsiders (as you can imagine breeding with stunted growth cats is very frowned upon by reputable breeders) so they wouldn't help me -- the "help" they did offer I could smell a mile off was window dressing and PR work.

Anyway I continually met with a brick wall and no one (with hands on experience) would help me. I wanted to know things like life-expectancy or what problems they could encounter (so I could rehome these cats as responsibly as possible). None of the breeders I contacted would talk with me. I then found out about an internet (MSN user) group/forum of these breeders and tried to join that. They asked me questions which I answered honestly and they refused my membership.

I then subscribed to a UK based VPN (virtual privacy network, so anyone checking my IP thinks I am posting from the UK). I made a new email address with a fake name and reapplied to this forum, posing as a new breeder with 4 queens and a stud. They require pics as proof of ownership to suss out your not an imposter. The pics I provided as proof were the pics of my 4 fosters and their brother (his brother was with another foster mum).

I was then allowed entry in to that very sick world.

I learned a lot.

To say it is a branch of the breeding world fraught with dangers is putting it soooo mildly it's laughable. I was simply amazed, shocked, stunned, saddened, and horrified from the my cat just gave birth stories and pics I read on that forum group.

I hope that answers your question


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

OP I am truly shocked your cat is almost 3 kilos I know pics are tricky to judge from, but I would have gauged her weight at under 2 kilos. 3 kilos is a decent enough weight but I am sorry I just dont believe she is that much, she is genuinely tiny, smaller I would say than an average 5 month old kitten. Again though, I know how touchy a subject this is. and I know how pointless it is for me to argue with you on her weight. And I also know how pointless it is on this forum to try and talk someone out of a conclusion and decision they have already reached. But for the people who will read this post in the future I feel morally obliged to point out that breeding with severe growth stunted cats is absolutely unethical (although in this post the breeding was unintentional), the risks are real and high for the queens and the effects on the kittens well hideous is the word that springs to mind.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> i do have a after hours vet close but not on sundays ... the 7 week old kitten was at the vets last week and is not underweight she was weighed there for the antiBs so i know that she is not under weight and baby the queen in question is between the 2.5kg and 3kg mark weighed on 2 different scales so do not tell me what my cat weighs by a bloody picture i will buy digital scales tomorrow and weigh her and take a picture so you can see how much she weighs... she has been to a vet just not since i have realised she is pregnant which was only a few days ago... bshe is going tomorrow


You know ... my heart sank as soon as I read where you typed 'baby queen'.  I don't know why but that has made me really sad.

FYI 580g for a 7 week old kitten *IS* underweight. Not drastically, but about 120g underweight. So you don't have digital scales ... how are you monitoring her weight?


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

its fine i know that pictures really dont do justice ... as i said i will get digital scales tomorrow and i will post a picture of her weight im not sure exactly what she is all it is between 2.5 and 3 she was almost 2kgs at the vets about 7 months ago when he weighed her on their scales ....


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

that was her weight at 6 weeks old when she was at vets last week (the week i got her) baby is the name of my pregnant queen lol that was her name in the shelter and my kids wanted to keep it.... i weigh her on scales that go up in .5kgs


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> that was her weight at 6 weeks old when she was at vets last week (the week i got her) *baby is the name of my pregnant queen lol that was her name in the shelter and my kids wanted to keep it*.... i weigh her on scales that go up in .5kgs


My apologies for the 'baby queen' remark. I totally missed the 'the' between the two words when I first read it.

You need those digital scales pretty quickly hun. Weighing a kitten on scales that only go up by 0.5kg is not good at all.

When weighing kittens they sometimes only go up in weight by 10g, and if they go more than a day putting on less than that, or worse losing it you could have a very sick kitten on your hands. If this goes unnoticed for a few days (which is more than possible with those scales) it could be too late.

Not sure what time it is where you are, but what are you going to do if she goes into labour tonight? have you got a vet near to you that can see her immediately if possible? A 3 hour drive may well be too long and you could very well have Baby die on you. I would seriously advise you do something right now to make sure you have someone on hand if it happens tonight. You said she is licking her nipples a lot, my girl did this only a few hours before birth! She could just be cleaning them, but she could also be encouraging the flow ready for impending birth.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

Has the pregnant cat been seen recently by the vet, if not do you not think that she should see one asap.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> My apologies for the 'baby queen' remark. I totally missed the 'the' between the two words when I first read it.
> 
> You need those digital scales pretty quickly hun. Weighing a kitten on scales that only go up by 0.5kg is not good at all.
> 
> ...


its 10.20pm here and its a weekday so vet is a half hour away its only sundays where closest after hours is a 3 hour drive but then my vet lives within half hour also but is on holidays for another 2 days ....the after hours vet is 24 hours monday through to saturday closed on sundays


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

GreyHare said:


> Has the pregnant cat been seen recently by the vet, if not do you not think that she should see one asap.


she is being seen tomorrow i did not know that she was pregnant till a few days ago and was on the phone to the vet as soon as i realised he said it could wait till wednesday as thats when he is back off holidays but i booked her in with his associate


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Can you get her to the vet to be seen tonight ... PLEASE? Tomorrow may be too late.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> My vet told me once that spaying a cat at the same time as a caesarean was risky and should only be done in emergency situations - that was when I actually asked for the cat to be spayed because I didn't want to breed from her again. If carrying to term is risky, and spaying is risky, you are weighing up one risk against another.


One vet once told you ???? weak argument Liz. You know I am not at all pro early neuter. If I want back up on that I dont have to go further than my own vet. He will back me up straight off. However, in the interests of being fairly educated and up to speed on the subject, I have to look at vets who do perform this procedure daily and do actually know what theyre talking about. Taking the advice of one vet who doesnt even practice this procedure, is, well its far from reaching an informed conclusion.



lizward said:


> The OP's vet has seen the cat concerned, our vets have not. Perhaps we should trust the judgment of the OP's vet. As for the health of the kittens - well, killing them certainly damages their health!


Liz, do I really have to tell you that not all vets are created equally and have equal on the job experience ? I said this earlier (repeated it above, but will say it again) if I phone my own vet now and ask how many stunted growth queens hes seen, his answer is going to be (almost certainly) none to very few. If I ask the same question to the shelter vets they simply do have much wider experience in this type of thing. Horse's for courses Liz.



lizward said:


> You have only to look at the moggy population! I do not know how much my girls weigh. I certainly had a small one give birth successfully in the summer, but how much she weighed, I don't know. I guess many people would have thought she was only a half-grown kitten because she is a small breed.


(apart form the fact I am flabbergasted you have no idea of your queens weights!!) I am looking at the moggy population, thats generally all I have looked at for the last few decades . And immature small cats do (generally) make terrible mothers. But we are just talking small due to age here, not small due to either genetic problems or stunted growth. So I am totally missing whatever point you are making. Do you come across severely stunted growth at all in the moggy population, let alone often? I certainly dont. And I would be even more shocked (sickened) if youre coming across it in breeding circles. So what exactly is it I am supposed to learn from "looking at the moggy population"?



lizward said:


> If you want me to join the "aaagh, pregnancy is the most dangerous thing in the world, spay your cat right now - unless of course you happen to have a pedigree in which case we'll all support you" lobby, you are going to be unlucky. I have explained my reasoning. Spaying in very late pregnancy is risky, caesareans are LESS risky. The OP has taken her cat to a vet who is qualified, you are not as far as I know. I am not. I think trusting the vet is not a totally unreasonable option!


No Liz, you explained one vet once told you spaying in late pregnancy was dangerous. So again, I ask, how widely experienced is this vet with this matter?

We had a person on the forum Saturday evening with 24 hour old kittens who a vet advised should be bathed every few days to get rid of the fleas. Just because a vet gave that advice, does that make it automatically right and safe?



lizward said:


> Many pedigree cats are much smaller than moggies! Don't forget it's really the size that is important, not the weight. Persians, for example, weigh very much less than Burmese of the same size.


Liz, a Persian or a Burmese or a whatever breed of queen is being bred with a male cat following the same sizing norms. So if you have a small breed the male is too is small if you have a big MC female, you have a big MC stud too. That cannot be said for a stunted growth 2 kilo female moggy going off and mating with a 5 kilo male.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Liz, another thing I want to say but don&#8217;t know quite how to word&#8230;

OK,

I am not pro early neuter, wouldn&#8217;t go as far as to say I am anti-early neuter, but certainly not a fan of it. 

You are very anti abortion. 

These are our opinions and of course we are entitled to them. However I feel we have some kind of duty to be as impartial as possible.

I can easily find 10 vets who will back me up on the early neuter thing (that&#8217;s it&#8217;s not in the cats best interests) &#8230;. and if I get BBM to do the same she can easily get 10 vets to back her up that early neutering is a good idea and is in the kittens best interests. 

However, what we can&#8217;t do is use this &#8220;well one vet once told me&#8221; argument. It&#8217;s weak in the extreme, and this is a forum read by absolute beginners in the cat world, people with no experience or very little, and I personally feel those amongst with some experience should always feel a duty to be as impartial as possible with the advice we dish out. 

I could easily blast an early neuter debate with &#8220;well my vet disagrees and says it&#8217;s bad for kittens&#8221; but not only would it be silly of me &#8230; it isn&#8217;t being impartial. We can&#8217;t take the word of inexperienced (in whatever subject) vets, and pass them off as experts on the subject.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Liz I have some of the studies, but without passwords for the publishers you wont get very far, and of course i dont have permission to reprint them on the forum. In the meantime I have put these up for you:

Infectious diseases which can cause stuntend growth:
The Animal House

Behavioural problems in cats fed less than adequate rashions:
Behavioural Development in the Cat

Dystocia due to small pelvis
Dystocia (difficult birth) in Cats - Signs & Treatment - Cat-World
feline parturition

As for the breathing and organ problems I cant find a link to a non subscription webpage. However, I can point you in the direction of nearly all dwarf cat websites (whether disproportionate or proportionate dwafism, and most tea-cup breeding sites) which reccomend that the queens are over 4kg to achieve successful pregnancy - although most dont go into the complications as to why this is so. If your interested there are also plenty of sites for humans which reference the organ failure and breathing problems associated with small maternal size.

I would like to point out too, that if ALL shelters were quite so handy with the knife as you are suggesting then i would be out of a job! My role as a fosterer is to take in the pregnant queens to help them raise their litters.

When were talking about overpopulation of cats.... that INCLUDES pedigrees you know? Any breeder who doesnt think that they are in some small (and in a bad breeder in a big) way adding to the problem is very very naieve and gravely mistaken.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

No responsible vet would carry out an elective Caesarian on a cat that the dates were completely unknown. Signs of impending labour may be out by days or even a week and delivering premature kittens would compromise their survival.
The assessment of exactly when labour is going to commence is an inexact science, too inaccurate to contemplate an elective section in this case.

As malnourishment is the reason for her small size then it may be that she will need a c/s, due to stunted pelvis, but I think waiting for labour to commence would be the proper course.
I would be in no hurry to spay, unless clinically indicated even if she does have a c/s, as the worst case scenario ie pregnancy has already occurred. 
An elective spay done after the kittens are weaned, may be kinder and less traumatic for her.

JMO


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Don't forget that before the days when everyone had their cats spayed, queens would have naturally started calling in their first Spring, many of these would have been very small and yet presumably (because kitten drowning would not have been the norm otherwise) the majority carried their litters to term without dropping dead first. And in many parts of the world, this is still the norm now.
> 
> Liz


Liz... apples and pears. No country I have ever lived has 2 kilo queens being mated with 5 kilos males. Or 3 kilo females with 7.5 kilo males. The issue here is not the natural mating & birthing process in and of itsself... it's the mating of a severly growth stunted female with a presumably normal sized male. This is NOT the norm in any of the many countries I have lived.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> You don't weigh your queens? :confused1:


No, of course not, why would I?



> I'm sorry but unless you have paid for the proper test to be done for hereditary conditions, such as dwarfism, you can't possibly know that. Some conditions don't present themselves in every kitten born, but they could carry the gene responsible and give birth to kittens with the condition. Liz will be able to confirm that as she herself has bred cats/kittens with genetic conditions.


But the odds of this are VASTLY less with non-pedigrees. We all need to face facts on these matters!



> So the other kitten in the picture is also underweight?


580g at 7 weeks doesn't sound underweight to me. These are moggies, not British Shorthairs!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mummyxofx2 said:


> can you feel kittens move with a phantom???
> taking to vet tomorrow so hopefully will get better answers


No, you can't feel phantom kittens moving.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> But you do still let your queens roam the streets right? I'm sure I saw you say that somewhere fairly recently.


I do have a couple of older girls who go out freely outside the breeding season, yes. They don't go out when they are likely to start calling.



> The OP clearly has NOT taken her to a vet.


I thought she had.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I could easily blast an early neuter debate with well my vet disagrees and says its bad for kittens but not only would it be silly of me  it isnt being impartial. We cant take the word of inexperienced (in whatever subject) vets, and pass them off as experts on the subject.


I haven't yet looked at the stuff you gave links to (and as you say, I may not be able to access them all anyway). In the meantime, you are not a recognised expert on this, neither am I, we have no choice but to go by what we are told. That is understood.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> 580g at 7 weeks doesn't sound underweight to me. These are moggies, not British Shorthairs!
> 
> Liz


well as someone who foster moggies.... I would be kicked up the jacksie by my vets if I was continually turning up with 580g 7 week old moggies. Is it drastcially underweight, no. Is it a good healthy weight, no. Rule of thumb for moggy kittens... 7 weeks old = 700 grams. 800grams would be a far better far healthier weight... and it is the norm (for my moggies at least) to weight around 800grams at 7 weeks old.

As for not weighing your queens.... I am quite speechless ... not that you don't weight them religiously, but you don't have a "failry accurate rough idea" of their weight. I find that very surprising. Heck I don't breed, but I can guess the weight of both my neutered females and be within 100-200grams of accurate. I just find it common sense.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

the average weight for a 7 week old kitten is around 750g. so 580g is small, its not abnormal (right on the lower range of normal). It definatly needs watching carefully to ensure he gains weight appropriatly from now on.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Any breeder who doesnt think that they are in some small (and in a bad breeder in a big) way adding to the problem is very very naieve and gravely mistaken.


Quite true. Which is why it seems very odd to me that on this forum certain members start screaming "abort!" as soon as a moggy gets pregnant, but you all go silent when it is a pregnant pedigree. It's even odder when some of those who start screaming "abort!" are breeders themselves.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> As for not weighing your queens.... I am quite speechless ... not that you don't weight them religiously, but you don't have a "failry accurate rough idea" of their weight. I find that very surprising. Heck I don't breed, but I can guess the weight of both my neutered females and be within 100-200grams of accurate. I just find it common sense.


I don't see why you would need to weigh them - rule of thumb is that you medicate an adult cat as if it weighed 4kg, that's what I do, my vet has never wanted to be any more accurate than that so why should I be concerned? I don't need scales to tell me if my cats are underweight or overweight any more than I need scales to tell the same thing about myself. If you want to weight them then by all means do.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I haven't yet looked at the stuff you gave links to (and as you say, I may not be able to access them all anyway). In the meantime, you are not a recognised expert on this, neither am I, we have no choice but to go by what we are told. That is understood.
> 
> Liz


ehhhhh excuse me... I didn't give any links to anything! I think you are confusing me with BBM. And while I will absolutely agree she is not an expert on all matters feline, I would follow her advice above yours any day. BBM to me is the epitome of someone who looks at kitten birth and cat rearing in a controlled infromed and educated manner... you are.... well... I just read the word "lacsadaisical" (sp?) used to describe you on another breeding thread, and I must wholeheartedly agree that very often your aprocah to breeding strikes me as lacsadaisical in the extreme. Laid back and relaxed is one thing, I could learn a few tips from a slightly laid back and fairly relaxed breeder, but lacsadisical is another matter entirely.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I just dont see that liz, perhaps you could link me up?


What i see are the facts, and the cats breed only comes into it if there is a serious genetic disease within the breed.

What does come into consideration are these:
experience of the breeder
willingness to learn
age of queen
dates (are they even known - most accidental matings arent!)
preparation
stud - any ideas who he might be? along with what he could be carrying or disproportionate size
behavioural problems of queen or stud (if known)
finances at home

Its not uncommon to see multiple posts from members who's situation becomes quite clear. In march they buy a kitten who gets cat-flu, but they cant afford vet bills. Then they go onto feed a poor diet because they think its a waste of money to spend more. Then the kitten has behavioural problems and the poster asks for advice. Owner posts that they have decided to let the cat out as they are too lazy to keep dealing with litter tray. Fast forward 6 months and the same kitten is now 6mo and going outside. They are planning on speying at the next payday. Suddenly kitten is 8mo and about to POP. The risks are huge, the owner cant afford proper care, but of course the kittens will be cute.

This may seem to be an extreem example but they happen all the time! 

I couldnt give a monkeys whether the cat is a tortie moggie or a rare pink spotted razerbacked feline from transylvania! The advice would be the same!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> I haven't yet looked at the stuff you gave links to (and as you say, I may not be able to access them all anyway). In the meantime, you are not a recognised expert on this, neither am I, we have no choice but to go by what we are told. That is understood.
> 
> Liz


Not once have i said i am an expert on this :confused1:

What i can do is give advice based on my own experience and based on the information available on the WWW. I dont use wacko websites to source my information but published veterinary and medical journals and studies.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> ehhhhh excuse me... I didn't give any links to anything! I think you are confusing me with BBM.


Sorry



> And while I will absolutely agree she is not an expert on all matters feline, I would follow her advice above yours any day.


That's your prerogative of course.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I just dont see that liz, perhaps you could link me up?


Sorry, what don't you see?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Not once have i said i am an expert on this :confused1:
> 
> What i can do is give advice based on my own experience and based on the information available on the WWW. I dont use wacko websites to source my information but published veterinary and medical journals and studies.


My apologies, I thought you must be an expert since you have access to all these journals

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I don't see why you would need to weigh them - rule of thumb is that you medicate an adult cat as if it weighed 4kg, that's what I do, my vet has never wanted to be any more accurate than that so why should I be concerned? I don't need scales to tell me if my cats are underweight or overweight any more than I need scales to tell the same thing about myself. If you want to weight them then by all means do.
> 
> Liz


Maybe this was a rule of thumb back in 1973 when almost every cat passing through a vets surgery was a standard domestic moggy.

To say the rule of thumb nowadays is 4 kilos for an adult cat and to medicate based on that guess ?????

. in this day and age with everything from mini cats to toy cats to teacup cats to NFCs and Main Coons and Bengals. With adult cats weighing anything in the region of 2 kilso to 10 kilos if a vet told me this rule of thumb, Id laugh in his face before going to a vet who actually knew what he was talking about.

Have you any idea the health implications a rule of thumb weight guess could have with some modern medications? I will leave complicated medicines out of the equation (talking LETHAL here) ... but even simple things like worm cures and flea tretaments require fairly accurate weight knowledge.

4 kilo rule of thumb... and medicating based on that guess .... and here was me actually worrying my use of the word "lacsadaisical" might have been slightly unfair.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> . in this day and age with everything from mini cats to toy cats to teacup cats to NFCs and Main Coons and Bengals. With adult cats weighing anything in the region of 2 kilso to 10 kilos if a vet told me this rule of thumb, Id laugh in his face before going to a vet who actually knew what he was talking about.


Well obviously you don't treat a Maine Coon as if it's 4kg. That's why flea treatments and the like come in "large cat" versions!

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well obviously you don't treat a Maine Coon as if it's 4kg. That's why flea treatments and the like come in "large cat" versions!
> 
> Liz


Liz... do you want me to make a list of meds where "rule of thumb 4 kilo adult weight" would be totally inappropriate? At times lethal!!! That kind of thinking is soooo outdated. Like I said... in 1973 maybe, in this day and age... it's just plain wrong. If a vet said that to me, after I laughed in his face, I would go to a vet who actually knew what he was talking about.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> My apologies, I thought you must be an expert since you have access to all these journals
> 
> Liz


no liz, i just continued my subscriptions after my degree. As i am back at college now its come in handy too! :thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Liz... do you want me to make a list of meds where "rule of thumb 4 kilo adult weight" would be totally inappropriate? At times lethal!!! That kind of thinking is soooo outdated. Like I said... in 1973 maybe, in this day and age... it's just plain wrong. If a vet said that to me, after I laughed in his face, I would go to a vet who actually knew what he was talking about.


I would guess it is rather like human medicine where the dose for "adults and children over 12" is always the same regardless of whether the person concerned weighs 6 stone or 30 stone.

I doubt if you will find a vet who, when the weight is critical, doesn't actually go and weigh the cat. Mine certainly would! Don't forget most of us on this forum are in the UK, we can't go and buy much at all in the way of medicines, we have to see a vet first.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> no liz, i just continued my subscriptions after my degree. As i am back at college now its come in handy too! :thumbup:


Ah, I have much the same thing.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Don't forget most of us on this forum are in the UK, we can't go and buy much at all in the way of medicines, we have to see a vet first.
> 
> Liz


ROFLOL Liz.... I am not fogetting anything!!!! I am in Holland. Not Timbucktoo sweetie. Holland, The Netherlands... Holland is a country that is generally a lot BETTER with all aspects of animal welfare than the UK.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Quite true. Which is why it seems very odd to me that on this forum certain members start screaming "abort!" as soon as a moggy gets pregnant, but you all go silent when it is a pregnant pedigree. It's even odder when some of those who start screaming "abort!" are breeders themselves.
> 
> Liz


Eh? Can you explain this a bit better?

Are you suggesting that someone who breeds ped responsibly (testing and all that jazz) is on the same level as someone who lets their moggie get pregnant without health testing, or finding a suitable stud with the same level of testing done to ensure (well as best you can) healthy kittens?


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Tje said:


> ROFLOL Liz.... I am not fogetting anything!!!! I am in Holland. Not Timbucktoo sweetie. Holland, The Netherlands... Not a developing 3rd world banana republic country. Holland is a country that is generally a lot BETTER with all aspects of animal welfare than the UK.


I think you have missunderstud what Liz was saying , she was not implying that you were in a 3rd world type country what she was saying is that the UK UNLIKE some countrys we have to go to a vet for every type of medication our animals need , in some countrys you can go and buy medications over the counter for animals without needing a prescription from the vet but here we cant , so if an animal needs meds then the vet will see it before any medication is handed out .


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Atlantys said:


> (And now I'll go back to my popcorn and leave you guys to it.)


come on! share!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> Oy! No need to get personal now! :lol::lol:
> 
> Some of those of us from 3rd world banana republic countries manage to be extremely concerned with animal welfare, even more so than your average UK citizen (or some of the participants on this thread), I think.
> 
> (And now I'll go back to my popcorn and leave you guys to it.)


Atlantys, I am actually agreeing with you... but having lived in some third world countries, and have taken stick in this forum along the lines of "well maybe that's how they do it in Thailand (or wherever), but here in the UK where we really care about animal welfare, we do it differently".

I could not agree with you more about the probability of you and many of your country folk (although I have zero ide aof your nationality) and many many people from many many different countries being extremely concerend, often more so than your UK counterparts. I am a Brit. I have lived there. I have lived in other countries too. I do not rate the UK that high at all on general animal welfare.

There are excellent pet owners in third world countries... and a quick look on this forum will give anyone a rough idea of the amount of numptie pet owners in the UK.

I have previously crossed swords with Lizward on this very matter when she cited the UK, while admiiting it has problems animal wise, as being a nation of animalovers with second to none care for strays/animal welfare. This is just seriously wrong. Though many Brits buy into this myth, I will challenge it at every given turn. I don't rate the UK that highly at all. Heck this forum should prove that point hands down. If this (the UK as represented on this forum) is "utopia" for animals... well, shoot me now 

I also have to make the point of (at times) when I mentioned taking a cat to the vet in Dubai for whatever treatment it was, that the vet was western and western trained, simply because I will leave myself wide open to anything I say being discreditted with the "ahhhh see but our vets here are far better" if and when I don't.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

David C said:


> I think you have missunderstud what Liz was saying , she was not implying that you were in a 3rd world type country what she was saying is that the UK UNLIKE some countrys we have to go to a vet for every type of medication our animals need , in some countrys you can go and buy medications over the counter for animals without needing a prescription from the vet but here we cant , so if an animal needs meds then the vet will see it before any medication is handed out .


No David, I don't think I did misunderstand. I have been down this road previously with Liz, and was literally sititng back waiting for her to play this particular card again. Even in 3rd world countries where pets meds are available OTC, responsible owners still go to a vet to get the prescription for them (as well as diagnosis/prognosis and dosage information). In the same way, even in countries like the UK, irrespossible owners still want to give human meds to cats and will PM you asking for dosage advice.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Oh my head hurts lol 

All i can say on this whole matter is that this thread and another thread i think have run their course , I have been in the dog world and also in the cavy world , the latter for many years both showing and judging but now wanting to come into the cat fancy its very off putting for anyone new coming to somewhere like this and reading all this constant bickering and what seems to be point scoring and now it seems to be getting personal between various members and quite rude at times with it . We all have our own views and opinions on things and sometimes we just have to agree to disagree which is what i think would be the best outcome on these threads .


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

David C said:


> we just have to agree to disagree which is what i think would be the best outcome on these threads .


If we all did that all of the time the forum would grind to halt by tomorrow midnight. But I do see your point, and I always do try to disagree politely.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

David you have a point up to the 'agree to disagree' part. I personally feel that it would be totally irresponsible to let something like this go. At the end of the day we aren't discussing something like who prefers cotton to flannel beds sheets. We're discussing (if you can call it that) the welfare of defenseless animals.

One thing that always makes me angry in these threads. That is when someone comes along with a laid back attitude to what appear to be dire situations. These can then be picked up on google, by anyone who is looking for answers. It only takes one post on a petforum by someone who (at first glace) appears to know what they are saying, to convince someone that what they are doing is not wrong, and it'll be fine to mate their dwarf cat/dog/rabbit to any old tom, as it 'could' all be OK. That kind of thing will cost animals their lives.


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## harrys_mum (Aug 18, 2010)

i just want to say hope everything goes smoothly when your cat gives birth.
i send all my love, and luck to you and the cat. she looks lovely, very sweet.
i also had a very malnurished cat who i took on that was found in an outhouse when we moved in. we thought it was a 3mth old kitten, but when the vet checked it he said it was about 3yrs old going by its teeth. it always stayed little, and skinny even though it ate all the time, but had a wonderful life with us till it was about 10yrs old. and never had a days illness.
so good luck.
let us know what you will do with the kitties when they are born and keep us updated on her progress. id love to know without all the nonesense.
michelle x


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I am in Holland. Not Timbucktoo sweetie. Holland, The Netherlands... Not a developing 3rd world banana republic country.


I know - I assume that, as with most of Europe, you can buy antibiotics and the like over the counter? I rather get the impression that the UK is a bit unusual in that regard.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Are you suggesting that someone who breeds ped responsibly (testing and all that jazz) is on the same level as someone who lets their moggie get pregnant without health testing, or finding a suitable stud with the same level of testing done to ensure (well as best you can) healthy kittens?


The issue was about cat population. If pedigree breeders claim we are not contributing to the cat overpopulation problem, we are just kidding ourselves.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

David C said:


> I think you have missunderstud what Liz was saying , she was not implying that you were in a 3rd world type country what she was saying is that the UK UNLIKE some countrys we have to go to a vet for every type of medication our animals need , in some countrys you can go and buy medications over the counter for animals without needing a prescription from the vet but here we cant , so if an animal needs meds then the vet will see it before any medication is handed out .


Exactly, thank you.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I do not rate the UK that high at all on general animal welfare.


Well, all I can say is, you need to get out more - if only on the internet! Look at it logically. We don't have declawing. We don't have routine kitten and puppy drowning any more, or more horrible methods of population control. We don't have all the stray cats and dogs regularly rounded up and killed just because they are in the way, and we don't have food and fur animals killed horribly.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> These can then be picked up on google, by anyone who is looking for answers. It only takes one post on a petforum by someone who (at first glace) appears to know what they are saying, to convince someone that what they are doing is not wrong, and it'll be fine to mate their dwarf cat/dog/rabbit to any old tom, as it 'could' all be OK.


No-one here has said that. The OP explained the situation.

Liz


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

How do you not notice a small cat gaining weight? :confused1:

Anyway, I have to agree with Aurelia on this one. 

What happens if your girl needs a c-section on a sunday? 3 hours could be the difference between her life and the kittens.

When I got Martha (who imo is a small cat) I knew she had been exposed to a male although I knew she hadnt gone into heat I took her and got her spayed, she was one of the youngest the vet has ever done...because I didnt want to risk her life for some kittens, she means more to me than that.

If this turns out to be false please get her done before letting her out again, not only would it not be fair on her because of her size (being pregnant is a big thing to put on any cat let alone a small cat who's body has not grown right because of the bad start she had) but also the fact that sadly there are loads of moggies in resuces. 

Anyway, I wish you and your girl the best I hope that if she is pregnant that it all goes well.


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Just wanted to make a LITTLE point, about the underweight kitten issue, the kitten was 580g when she went to the vets a week ago, so she was 6 weeks old then. So not reeeeally as bad as it seems. 

I'm going to go now before getting involved at all! :thumbup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I know - I assume that, as with most of Europe, you can buy antibiotics and the like over the counter? I rather get the impression that the UK is a bit unusual in that regard.


No, you assume wrong! You absolutely cant buy antibiotics and the like over the counter here (Id be shocked if you could anywhere in north western Europe). In fact the UK is far better (or far worse, depending on which way you look at it) for OTC medicines than Holland is.



lizward said:


> Well, all I can say is, you need to get out more - if only on the internet! Look at it logically.


Liz, I have probably seen more of the world than most posters on this forum, and have been involved in aninmal resuce in a good few of those countries too. And I do as a general rule look at all things logically. But thanks anyway for reminding to me to use logic, lol.



lizward said:


> Look at it logically. We don't have declawing. We don't have routine kitten and puppy drowning any more, or more horrible methods of population control. We don't have all the stray cats and dogs regularly rounded up and killed just because they are in the way, and we don't have food and fur animals killed horribly.


Looking at logically, and replying logically -- I didnt say the UK was the worst place in the world for animal welfare, I just said I didnt rate it at all highly. Especially compared to how someone like you rates it. Compared to some of its closest neighbours, animal welfare is simply pretty [email protected] in the UK. Other countries (not so far from the UK) have none of the nasties you mentioned above, but they have far stricter animal welfare laws, fines and prosecutions making those countries FAR more animal friendly. And in those countries, probably more importantly, public opinion is far more animal friendly than it is in the UK, where it still perfectly socially acceptable AND legal to sell or buy a 6 week old kitten. You dont have this phenomenon in many other euro-countries.

But that is not even what annoys me the most. That animal welfare is different in different countries is something I just take as a given. What gets up my nose is the assumption and the superior attitude of many Brits thinking they are (we as a country are) the be all and end all animal lover nation. Its like you automatically assuming anti declawing laws, the lack of drowned kittens, prescription requirement for antibiotics are all things that are somehow peculiar to just the UK. Theyre not. And as for cats and dogs being rounded up and killed, while I dont have hard stats to back me up, I know euthanasia is practiced far less in cats shelters here (and in shelters in other Euro countries) than it is in the UK. So no, the UK sure isnt the worst country animal welfare wise, but it sure as heck aint the best either not by a long shot.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Chez87 said:


> I'm going to go now before getting involved at all! :thumbup:


oyyyy - you little hit & run poster you  get back in here and get down & dirty


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Lizward, you replied to my saying I didnt rate the UK that highly on welfare with words along the lines of I have to get out more. Where, when, how, why? What part so the world have you seen that I havent? What point am I missing? Is there some corner of the UK that is animal utopia and I missed visiting it? I have replied to your points as well as I know how to could you please do me the courtesy of explaining to me why I need to get out more, and where I should go? 

I did get "out there". I did, and still continue to, compare animal welfare in different countries, and I concluded that the UK isnt that hot at all on animal welfare. I fail to see why I need to get out more. 

Or is this "you need to get out more" the new "get a life" type of insult-reply so frequently used on internet forums?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> No, you assume wrong! You absolutely cant buy antibiotics and the like over the counter here (Id be shocked if you could anywhere in north western Europe).


Ireland.



> So no, the UK sure isnt the worst country animal welfare wise, but it sure as heck aint the best either not by a long shot.


Which ones would you say are better, apart from Holland, and how are they better?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Or is this "you need to get out more" the new "get a life" type of insult-reply so frequently used on internet forums?


You should have seen enough of my posts by now to realise that I simply don't do insults.

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

think this post has gone off topic....wat was the orignal question?!!?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> think this post has gone off topic....wat was the orignal question?!!?


What? A petforums post off topic? Never!! :lol:

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Which ones would you say are better, apart from Holland, and how are they better?


Off the top off my head... Holland, Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Denmark (would hazard guesses at Austria, Switzerland and Finland too).... better in lots of different ways -- and what's very strong in one country might not necessarily be as strong in the next one. So just better general animal welfare. (better animal awareness amongst the public, better shelters, less of the "easy come easy go" attitude we see all too often amongst Brits on this forum and in daily life in the UK, better laws (that are actually enforced), less rehoming of immature kittens, more neutering, less BYBs, less stray cats and dogs on the streets. And even in some countries much less dog $hit on the pavements, public parks and green spaces too).



lizward said:


> You should have seen enough of my posts by now to realise that I simply don't do insults.


well explain to me then, just because I don't rate the UK as that much of animal loving nation, why I "need to get out more" ?

You may not have intended that as in insult, but I simply don't know what to make of it, and it certainly doesn't sound like a compliment.

It sounds like you're implying that I am living some kind of "sheltered from reality" life. And while I will readily admit my social life is pretty dire and I don't do pubs or clubbing or parties, ... I actually know very few people who have wider experiences of animal welfare in as many different countries. soooooo... why do I need to get out more? And where to? And how? And what should I be looking for? What am I missing.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

Rupertsmum said:


> Jeez God Forbid anyone to actually come here for help!
> All Ive noticed is bickering and bitching - not helpful - not needed.


I think you will find that every post has a little bit of advice/information in it. Yes people have a difference in opinion on this forum but it would be damn stupid if we all felt and thought the same.

:thumbup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Rupertsmum said:


> Jeez God Forbid anyone to actually come here for help!
> All Ive noticed is bickering and bitching - not helpful - not needed.


and your post was... what?

helpful? informative?

feel free to actually help the OP ... enough of us have already.

what's your contribution ?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Thats fine that you just come on to read and learn, but what makes you feel entitled to dictate the terms of a discussion youre not even wanting to take part in? Just because you dont find some particular point helpful, that does not apply to everyone. You state something totally inaccurate when you say that all this post is full of is bickering and bitching. Thats simply not true, there is a lot of information in this post. And much of it is very animal friendly indeed. 

But hey, even if you really dislike bitching and bickering (or open adult debate, which ever youd rather call it)  why perpetuate it by responding (twice?).

When I see posts I consider pointless. I just ignore them. I dont go on to that post to point out how pointless it is, or to have a pop at the posters. Is it not just better to ignore things we consider pointless and stupid? 

What kind of forum would it be if we all started adding "ewww this post is so pointless" to everything that didn't take our fancy. 

Again though, this is just my opinion!


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

Rupertsmum said:


> but on the same note posts that disintigrate into personal grudges arent helpful either, isnt that what PM is for.
> I never once said these posts were pointless because they are not, that is the whole reason I made my comment.


I think you will find that lizward and TJE dont have a problem with eachother..they will disagree on a post but the next day agree completely on a different post...thats what all members do!

I have disagree'd with members but then on other subjects agree'd completely. Its not about personal grudges its about a difference of opinions.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Rupertsmum said:


> I wasnt dictating anything to do with the way this discussion is going at all, I thought this was an open forum though.
> Im not saying I didnt find anything helpful in what was being said at all, both sides have fair points to make, its the way each post is then reacted to by the other in such a way as to inflame a situation that doesnt need to arise, I completley understand that things one person says may conflict with another, but some of the posts to me seem to be getting more personal than to the other poster than helpful towards the topic.
> And the second time I responded was in reply to you.
> Why would I be reading the thread if I felt the posts were pointless?
> ...


Without getting in to the semantics of the word pointless versus the words unhelpful and unneeded

I still dont see the point of popping on to a post that didnt take my fancy, that other people were enjoying, just to point out that that post didnt meet my own personal standards.

I respond to very many posts in this forum that were not directly aimed at me (Id guess 99% of forum replies are made by people who respond to general points aimed at everyone and anyone). Just because I answer a post about cats weeing on beds, that does not mean I feel that post was directed at me personally. Of course not, its an open forum. Most of the questions arent initially directed at any particular poster.

But hey if youre happy popping on to posts that you dont like, and trying to control the direction towards one you do like well hey, dont let me stop you. I wish you the very best of luck!!

And well.. .. you can go on and on about what you think is off-topic chit chat that should be taken to personal message but wouldnt you be better to lead by example? I mean, you have now taken this post totalllllly off topic to something not even remotely animal welfare related, why not just PM the people who are annoying you? As you yourself just pointed out isnt that what PM is for ? Isn't that just a tiny little bit ironic?

And if you just want to make a point about general forum etiquette, there is also the "General Section"{ and the "Forum Help & Suggestions" sub section.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I think you will find that lizward and TJE dont have a problem with eachother..they will disagree on a post but the next day agree completely on a different post...thats what all members do!
> 
> I have disagree'd with members but then on other subjects agree'd completely. Its not about personal grudges its about a difference of opinions.


That's what I think too. 
There is no need to butt into any debate, unless you can add something to a discussion, is the way I look at it.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> How do you not notice a small cat gaining weight? :confused1:
> 
> Anyway, I have to agree with Aurelia on this one.
> 
> ...


please do not comment if you have not read all post correctly ........... i have a vet who is half hour away from me which is where he lives OK you got that bit..... he was on holidays at the time of needing him when my kitten had utrine crystals...... he is coming off holidays tomorrow so YES i do have a vet close by on sundays


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think I've read most of the posts on here relating to the original question. Surely the point is that the cat is pregnant and probably quite far along. There seems to be an assumption that she was impregnated by some oversized marauding beast and the kittens will be huge. Whereas I'm happy to go along with the idea that this isn't an ideal situation I do think a bit of support wouldn't be out of place. This isn't an irresponsible owner who couldn't be bothered to get a girl spayed. What's wrong with a scan or an x-ray to get some idea of the size of the kittens? My personal preference is a conscious x-ray as there would be no need to shave but either would do.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Havoc, I have been saying from the beginning. See a vet, but (I personally would) see one who hasnt already ruled out abortion/neuter over the phone without even seeing or examining the cat. You have no vets in your area (at least I think its you) experienced in early neuter - so that option is removed for you. Well its no different here. A vet that rules out abortion/neuter over the phone (without determining how far along the queen is) probably isnt the best vet to make the best decision for this cats health. But as it transpired, the OP is anti-abortion anyway, so that became a moot-point. 

And as for the queens weight and that of the male to be fair the OP did say in her first post that her cat was half the size of a normal cat. If a normal female is 4 kilos, and a normal male 4.5kg, then its not a wild assumption to assume the queen was around 2 kilo as thats what the OP told us (and the male around 4.5kg as thats just average). It was only later the OP came up with her cat being 2.5 kilos verging to the 3 kilos. And I will readily admit, when someone tells me their malnourished cat is around 2 kilos yes, I do (mostly) adjust that downwards slightly before advising, to err on the side of caution. As experience has taught me (and many vets have told me) that most cat owners (not experienced breeders/fosters mum) often make mistakes with weight. Owners with malnourished cats often guess/weigh them heavier than they actually are, and owners of obese cats often guess/weigh them lighter than they actually are. 

I think a scan or x-ray would be an excellent idea. in fact a must!


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Tje she might not be able to find any vet that will agree to do a spay this late on in pregnancy , i know that you wont find any vet around my area that would perform a spay on a pregnant animal after the 5th week of pregnancy because of the heightend risk with all the dialated blood vesels in and around the uterus , they would always opt for a C section at the time if needed .


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I agree an x-ray would be very useful, just try to make sure the vet is experienced in reading them!

I once had a foster cat x-rayed (because i was concerned she was overdue) with a locum vet one weekend. The vet declaimed that the kittens were ENORMOUS and that there was no way she could give birth naturally. The same cat went on to have a c-section and had 5 small (slightly preemie by maybe a day or two) kittens none of which were over 90g. They certainly were not the giants the vet had been claiming they were. I know they say the camera puts on a few lbs , but experience in this area would have taught him the truth. This cat had to undergo major surgery for nothing.

Sadly I dont have a copy of the cats x-ray but it looked something similar to this (but with more foetus').


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

David C said:


> Tje she might not be able to find any vet that will agree to do a spay this late on in pregnancy , i know that you wont find any vet around my area that would perform a spay on a pregnant animal after the 5th week of pregnancy because of the heightend risk with all the dialated blood vesels in and around the uterus , they would always opt for a C section at the time if needed .


David, I don't think you _can_ say, "you won't find any" and "they would always".

Having spent a lot of my weekends and holidays throughout high school volunteering in a vet's surgery, I know that there are always cases where the risks to the mother and the kittens / puppies outweigh the vet's personal opinion on the subject, and sometimes a late-pregnancy spay is the medically necessary choice to save her life, ideal situation or not.

If the risks to the mother undergoing a late-pregnancy spay are outweighed by the risks of her carrying to term and not surviving the birth (and only a vet actually examining the animal can determine this) then any responsible vet is going to spay her.

We all know how 'greedy' the placenta as an organ is, and that it steals all the resources it can, fighting for the survival of the kittens to the detriment of the mother if she has no extra resources. That's how you can end up with an emaciated mother (or one that has 'lost condition', if not so far gone), and quite plump kittens or puppies. My point is, just because this girl has gotten pregnant, it does not mean that she will physically be able to carry to term and give birth without it potentially doing permanent or terminal damage to her.

Debating it over the internet is not going to negate the fact that only a vet (preferably an experienced one, as Tje said) should be making this decision, and every day that goes by without the OP getting a proper medical opinion on this puts this underweight, very possibly dwarf cat at more and more risk of suffering or dying.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

David, now we know more background to this story, that the cat is nearer 3 kilos than 1700grams I dont feel as strongly as I did earlier  3 kilos is a fairly decent weight, while originally I was fearing this queen could be half of that (the OP's words were half the size of a normal cat, and my experience takes 20% off that for worst case scenario). I was REALLY worried in the beginning, not so much now. Though I do think the queen looks tiny in those photos. Also bear in mind, a vet is yet to see this cat so we have no real idea how far gone the queen is.

But just for discussions sake. Say this queen had been 1700 or 1800grams.

I saw and read enough on that tea-cup breeding forum to know how risky this can be (and my own experience with my tea cup fosters and my vets panic if they had been pregnant). In that case, first thing I would want done is some kind of scan to determine (as much as possible) how far along the queen was. If my own vet was of the I dont abort after the 5th week and definitely if he could say all this over the phone without even seeing my cat!!!! Then I would get on the phone and phone around until I found one who had experience of the procedure. I would also ensure I dealt with a vet who had experience of birthing in severely growth stunted queens. University vet schools are often a good place to start to get this kind of information re vets speicialised or experiened in the not so common things.

I am not saying I would opt for abortion, I have no experience of very late abortions, I have no idea what I would do. To be able to reach an informed decision as possible I would need to discuss the whole thing (all angles, pros and cons of birthing versus pros and cons of aborting) with a vet but with vets experienced in queens birthing with THIS condition.

If that meant travelling, I would do that (and have done that quite often in the past). I also am a big fan of phone consultations with vets (initially) when the distances are too great and I dont know their stance or experience on any particular matter. I also dont rule out me myself having a consultation with a vet and the cat staying at home. I have dealt with veterinary specialists in the past, initially just with email, photos, vet records and telephone conversations so we could decide together what the next course of action should be.

Basically what I am trying to say although I dont know the answers, and dont exactly _*what I would do*_ I do know enough to know that a pregnant 1800gr tiny framed female mated with a normal 4.5-5 kilo tom, is very worrisome. So *what I definitely wouldnt do *is  just sit back and say well my vet has no experience of this condition or birthing with this condition, and he has never performed a late neuter, so all options closed Ill just sit back and wait for the kittens to come out and hope for the best. I would turn over every stone to ensure the cat got the best possible help and to know I had explored all the possibilities with those best qualified to advise.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

OP ~ I'm guessing it's the end of the day for you now in Aus, and you said you would take her to the vets today ... so how did it go?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

right... own up.... who stretched the margins??? lol


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> (and my own experience with my tea cup fosters and my vets panic if they had been pregnant)


Herein lies, I think, the reason behind the heated differences of opinion (forgive me Tje for using a quote from your post, it happens to be there and convenient).

Size of cat aside, it strikes me as perfectly natural that someone involved heavily in rescue is going to see this completely differently from a breeder or pet owner. I happen to fall into the camp that wouldn't rush to spay/abort a late pregnancy in a cat and I suspect that's because I mainly deal with cats who are well nourished, decently cared for and decidedly 'humanised'. For a pet cat I honestly believe the spay/abort option to be way more dangerous at this stage.

I can though see why the opposite view would be held by someone who's life is dominated by feral or semi-feral strays. The opportunity for pre-birth observation or post c-section care or care (and homing) of a litter of kittens is going to be a whole different ball game.

I would think a vet may well consider those different scenarios would require different approaches too. There isn't a one size fits all solution.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Tje said:


> right... own up.... who stretched the margins??? lol


:lol: Made me smile as I think the 'margins' of this thread have certainly been stretched  But then I saw BBM's post and saw what you meant 
I don't feel qualified or knowledgeable enough to make any comments but I think it goes to show that it helps to have all the proper facts before any real advice can be offered.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

havoc said:


> Herein lies, I think, the reason behind the heated differences of opinion (forgive me Tje for using a quote from your post, it happens to be there and convenient).
> 
> Size of cat aside, it strikes me as perfectly natural that someone involved heavily in rescue is going to see this completely differently from a breeder or pet owner. I happen to fall into the camp that wouldn't rush to spay/abort a late pregnancy in a cat and I suspect that's because I mainly deal with cats who are well nourished, decently cared for and decidedly 'humanised'. For a pet cat I honestly believe the spay/abort option to be way more dangerous at this stage.
> 
> ...


Havoc you hit the nail right on the head


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Havoc, I wouldnt rush to neuter/abort either if I wasnt extremely concerned about the queens size  thats all this post was ever about to me, size. 

I know many shelters do neuter/abort purely because of shelter overcrowding none I have volunteered for do. When they neuter a pregnant queen its generally because the queen herself is too young or she is sick in some way. A normal pregnant queen we dont ever neuter/abort, we ship them off to foster families for the duration. (my current shelter has a VERY strict no-euthanasia policy, so strict I hate it). 

I totally agree breeders and rescuers are often going to have totally different takes on things like this, purely because we come at the whole cat thing from different angles. 

However, the tea-cups I mentioned above though they werent strays or ferals they were pedigree bred Persians, bred by a breeder (well I say breeder I think you know what I would rather call them!!) and dumped when they developed a costly (but failry minor) health issue. They were verrrrryyyy friendly lovely natured cats. But they were tiny! 

I can say on this particular issue, it really was PURELY down to size whether it be a pedigree or a moggy, socialized or feral, an 1800gr queen mated with a 4.5-5 kilo male is always going to make me very worried and make me advise in the way I did. No one should ever take this issue lightly. 

If this post (or one like it) turned again tomorrow or next week... I would advise in the exact same way.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> Size of cat aside, it strikes me as perfectly natural that someone involved heavily in rescue is going to see this completely differently from a breeder or pet owner. I happen to fall into the camp that wouldn't rush to spay/abort a late pregnancy in a cat and I suspect that's because I mainly deal with cats who are well nourished, decently cared for and decidedly 'humanised'. For a pet cat I honestly believe the spay/abort option to be way more dangerous at this stage.


Sorry Havoc, another point just dawned on me. Could it also be that someone like you or someone like the average pet owner you mention, has never seen (or possibly even heard of) the disastrous results of breeding in severely growth stunted females, and thats why you would more inclined to go ahead with the pregnancy? I mean if you had more insight into all the possible risks to the kittens and the mum, wouldnt you then be more inclined to consider neuter/abortion? I can't imagine many reputable breeders like yourself (or average pet owners) ever get to see a dwarf female, let alone the consequences of pregnancy with the.

Some of my opinions are definitely based on the rescue problem, I cant deny that , but in this case I really dont think its my rescue-background talking. Its more. well you really should look at those tea-cup forums for a few months and I am sure you would then have a better awareness of how risky birthing is in dwarf cats. For kittens and mums. My tea-cups were arguably examples of cats who probably would have been better off dying at birth or in the very early days. They lived but quality of life/life expectancy. Nope, they werent my idea of even half healthy specimens. But they are the specimens tea-cup breeders breed with.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Tje said:


> Havoc, I wouldnt rush to neuter/abort either if I wasnt extremely concerned about the queens size  thats all this post was ever about to me, size.
> 
> I know many shelters do neuter/abort purely because of shelter overcrowding none I have volunteered for do. When they neuter a pregnant queen its generally because the queen herself is too young or she is sick in some way. A normal pregnant queen we dont ever neuter/abort, we ship them off to foster families for the duration. (my current shelter has a VERY strict no-euthanasia policy, so strict I hate it).
> 
> ...


Agreed

As I have said on the thread (or was it another - been going on a while now lol), I couldnt give a monkeys if this was the rarest of pedigrees or flatulant fanny the neighbourhood mog!

I would tend to agree with TJE here that people often use a bit of poetic licence with weights, and we did not know the weight at the beginning of the thread, however we did see photos.

This girl (regardless of weight) looks to be around the size of a 6mo kitten.

I have seen kittens (and not ones as tiny as a 6mo) have kittens, and aside from the rearing issues which are due to age, there are some fairly important physiological issues surrounding such tiny cats having kittens.

The kittens I have seen have certainly not all been feral or strays, in fact the majority are surrenders. I do however accept havocs point that we fosterers are always likely to approach things in a different manner than a breeder, purely because its often us that are the ones picking up the pieces when things go wrong.

TJE - sorry i blew up the thread! :001_cool:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Could it also be that someone like you or someone like the average pet owner you mention, has never seen (or possibly even heard of) the disastrous results of breeding in severely growth stunted females


Never even seen a severely growth stunted cat in the flesh never mind the disasterous results of breeding from one. Nor do I wish to and you'll never find a greater ally than me in abhoring the practice of deliberately breeding for dwarfism.

The concern here was initially the assumption that the cat was tiny but everyone jumped on that because, and only because, the owner said she was small. What has struck me through this thread is how someone can say something and it be taken as an extreme. A pet owner who happens to have owned a couple of large(ish) cats in their life is going to see a small-average female as 'tiny'. Their frame of reference is completely different from someone who has seen thousands of rescues and we need to remember that when people post. This owner doesn't have a teacup cat, she has a cat on the small side of normal and she thought it was spayed. Chances are it will be able to give birth perfectly well as do the vast majority of cats who are impregnated by wandering lotharios of varying and unknown sizes.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> please do not comment if you have not read all post correctly ...........


I will post where and when I want thank you.
And I did read the post I spent nearly a hour reading the whole thing...you need back up vets.

Whats up the moggies in rescues comment upset you? Because I wasnt hostile with you like you where with me.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I do however accept havocs point that we fosterers are always likely to approach things in a different manner than a breeder, purely because its often us that are the ones picking up the pieces when things go wrong.


You have a constant throughput of 'problems'. I don't though I do have problems sometimes as does any breeder. The difference is that I can and do limit the cats I have under my care and can therefore devote more time to them individually. What's more I have a relationship with every one of them which I'm guessing isn't possible in the world of rescue. I don't for one moment pretend this isn't a luxury. It is reason for the two different worlds maybe taking a different veterinary approach at times. For example a 'wait and see' option being far more credible when there is someone with 24/7 time to do the seeing while waiting.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

havoc said:


> Never even seen a severely growth stunted cat in the flesh never mind the disasterous results of breeding from one. Nor do I wish to and you'll never find a greater ally than me in abhoring the practice of deliberately breeding for dwarfism.
> 
> The concern here was initially the assumption that the cat was tiny but everyone jumped on that because, and only because, the owner said she was small. What has struck me through this thread is how someone can say something and it be taken as an extreme. A pet owner who happens to have owned a couple of large(ish) cats in their life is going to see a small-average female as 'tiny'. Their frame of reference is completely different from someone who has seen thousands of rescues and we need to remember that when people post. This owner doesn't have a teacup cat, she has a cat on the small side of normal and she thought it was spayed. Chances are it will be able to give birth perfectly well as do the vast majority of cats who are impregnated by wandering lotharios of varying and unknown sizes.


Havoc, did you see the pictures the OP posted of her cat?  The cat IS tiny. I would even say it looked smaller than a 6month old 

I really really hope the worrying some of us are doing is for nothing, and will not be needed. But I know one thing for sure ... it is better to be safe than sorry, so taking all the precautions possible is the way to go IF you love your animal and don't want her to die when the time comes. Crossed fingers or thinking 'it will will probably be fine' isn't going to help you in an emergency situation is it?

Given that the cat is so small, I still fail to see how this was missed until now. She presumably has a right belly on her being so small! Worming her thinking it was worms is pretty understandable, but the big belly will have been there a lot longer than a week, so surely the next step would have been a visit to the vets ... which it seems the OP STILL hasn't done


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The cat won't look very big at all if she is only carrying one or two kittens.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Havoc, did you see the pictures the OP posted of her cat? The cat IS tiny


I've even gone back and looked at them again now. What is there to give any sense of scale other than the smaller and younger looking cat in front?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> The cat won't look very big at all if she is only carrying one or two kittens.
> 
> Liz


and she also wont look very big if she is only 2 kilos.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/129958-help-please-very-worried-3.html I think the concern stems from the fact that the small kitten is only 7 weeks old and the other one is a possibly pregnant adult.

The above is written in reply to question by havoc asking" What is there to give any sense of scale other than the smaller and younger cat in front.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> The concern here was initially the assumption that the cat was tiny but everyone jumped on that because, and only because, the owner said she was small.


Havoc, no -- I don't think there was any wrong assumption of the cat's size. The OP didn't just say "I have a small cat" she explained it had been severely malnourished and said it was half the size of a normal cat because of that. I was assuming (probably rightly) that this cat's condition, and lack of size, had been explained to her by the rescue centre's vet. This would be s.o.p in a case like this with a stunted growth cat. I even asked for clarification if the cat was genuinely under two kilos. Which is when the OP came back with more 2.5 to 3 kilos. Which I felt was good news (on one hand, if we could believe the OP and her scales, which seemed to be a bit, well less than perfect for the purpose of weighing cats). Then the pics came… and like Aurelia, if I had to guess based on this pics, I am back to around 2 kilos tops, maybe even 1700 or 1800grams. But it's silly to guess weights based on pics, I know that. But they are the only hard evidence we ever got.



havoc said:


> This owner doesn't have a teacup cat, she has a cat on the small side of normal and she thought it was spayed. Chances are it will be able to give birth perfectly well as do the vast majority of cats who are impregnated by wandering lotharios of varying and unknown sizes


I never implied the OP had a tea-cup cat, I said (based on her own words) she had a severely growth stunted cat. Although as far as I am aware for birthing/mating purposes, there's not much difference between the two. I stand behind my words if she has (as she told us she had) a growth stunted cat cat half the size of a normal cat, then the responses she got were wholly appropriate.



havoc said:


> What has struck me through this thread is how someone can say something and it be taken as an extreme. A pet owner who happens to have owned a couple of large(ish) cats in their life is going to see a small-average female as 'tiny'. Their frame of reference is completely different from someone who has seen thousands of rescues and we need to remember that when people post.


I do see what you mean here, that can of course happen. But believe me, the reverse can happen too. Even foster mums make these same simple mistakes, the biggest boldest one in the litter is 900grams but they miss the runt is only 600g. Wishful thinking comes in to play here, as well as just lacsadaisical rearing habbits like not weighing and not paying proper attention.

And would it be beyond the realms of imagination that someone feeling pressure that their cat might be too small to birth safely, but set in their anti-abortion state of mind, would lie and a add a kilo on to a weight to make it sound better and easier to justify in their own heads? Maybe that is out of the realm of imagination in your world, it's sadly not in mine.

(before anyone jumps on me, I am not saying this is the case, just stating the possibility and why we should always keep an open mind).

I have no idea why people lie about weights, but I do know they do. Every call we get in to the shelter with something along the lines of "I need to get rid of my kittens", to judge the urgency the first questions are generally age and weight (mother cat present, weaned or not, eating well or not)… often it doesn't sound that urgent. But often that assumption turns out to be completely wrong as people (for whatever reason) lie or get weights wrong and tell us the kittens weigh far more than they do. Or tell us they are weaned when they're not. I was sent to assess one litter this summer, spoke to the folks personally on the phone and I was in no hurry… mother cat was there, they were 6 weeks old and eating well, drinking well. When I finally got there, the mother cat was outside (probably had been for hours every day) and the kittens were only 4 weeks old, not weaned at all, and all dehydrated and in a poor way and severely underweight.

A couple of ladies here on the forum will be able to vouch for me about a forum member who bought a kitten and it died within 24 hrs. That was also such a weird thing… when I first spoke to that person on the phone we were under the impression that the kitten was (guessing numbers here, it was a while back) 800grams and 8 weeks… but through the course of the conversation and the fact they needed to get to a vet ASAP the truth started to come out, the age went down and the weight too went down, I think it was eventually admitted that the kitten was 7 weeks and 600grams. That lady who bought the kitten probably read a couple of my posts, knew how I felt on rehoming too young underweight kittens, and tempered her answers to my questions so they would be more palatable to me. (or so I wouldn't have too much leeway to judge her).

Dumb…. But happens a LOT! Too often I see cases of "tell them what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear to be able to help me and my cat."


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/129958-help-please-very-worried-3.html I think the concern stems from the fact that the small kitten is only 7 weeks old and the other one is a possibly pregnant adult.


good point Buffie.... for frame of reference that does help to know the wee one is 7 wks old.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't doubt for one minute that people will lie. Of course they do. What concerns me on a forum like this is that people asking for help and advice will be frightened off by an over eager response. That's a general point, not a comment on any particular post or poster. This cat should see a vet, never suggested it shouldn't and I don't think the owner was ever suggesting it shouldn't. What I do think she was trying to get across was weighing up the balance of traipsing 3 hours with a pregnant cat to a 24 hour vet or risking the wait until her local guy was available and got slammed for trying to point out the dilemma.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

havoc said:


> I don't doubt for one minute that people will lie. Of course they do. What concerns me on a forum like this is that people asking for help and advice will be frightened off by an over eager response. That's a general point, not a comment on any particular post or poster. This cat should see a vet, never suggested it shouldn't and I don't think the owner was ever suggesting it shouldn't. What I do think she was trying to get across was weighing up the balance of traipsing 3 hours with a pregnant cat to a 24 hour vet or risking the wait until her local guy was available and got slammed for trying to point out the dilemma.


The three hour journey to the vets was in relation to her 7week old kitten with urinating difficulties. http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/128864-whats-worng-my-kitty.html not her pregnant cat.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> I don't doubt for one minute that people will lie. Of course they do. What concerns me on a forum like this is that people asking for help and advice will be frightened off by an over eager response. That's a general point, not a comment on any particular post or poster.


Havoc, I agree and disagree. Of course I see your point about not wanting to frighten people off with over eager responses, but on the other hand, some responses by some people on some threads are the complete opposite. They are so laidback and lackadaisical that the risk then becomes that there is a problem but Mrs Breeder or Mrs Fostermum plays it down so much that the inexperienced cat owner sat at homes thinks everything is hunky-dory. I have seen plenty examples of this on this forum. The sensible middle ground is always preferable to the extremes of "ach no worries, sit back and relax, what will happen will happen" versus the "omg if you don't see a vet now your cat will explode"



havoc said:


> This cat should see a vet, never suggested it shouldn't and I don't think the owner was ever suggesting it shouldn't. What I do think she was trying to get across was weighing up the balance of traipsing 3 hours with a pregnant cat to a 24 hour vet or risking the wait until her local guy was available and got slammed for trying to point out the dilemma.


As for slamming the OPs nearby local vet any vet who can say over the phone that hes not aborting kittens of a cat who is half the size of a normal cat, without even examining said cat or determining how far along the pregnancy is well maybe the vet shouldnt be slammed as such but he possibly isn't the best qualified vet for this cat in this situation. It is sound advice IF a queen is 2 kilos to get to a vet who is actually experienced in these matters. Even is Australia vets do phone consultations and a lot can be learned by phone consultations with a specialist vet working in combination with a local vet to pick up the slack and do whatever tests the specialist vet orders.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

But Havoc, surely it's more dangerous for the cat if we all said 'wait for the local vet' (as in don't bother to take her to the vet at all until the local one is back).

One thing I have also thought over today. That is that we aren't talking about just a small pregnant queen here. Because she was so malnurished (and it must have been bad for her to be so small) there is every possibility this poor girl has a week heart and other organs aren't developed quite enough to sustain her through birth and nursing.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

op how is the cat today?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> The three hour journey to the vets was in relation to her 7week old kitten with urinating difficulties. http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/128864-whats-worng-my-kitty.html not her pregnant cat.


Buffie I am so bloody happy we you have you to keep us all on track. I think I remember now.... the 3 hour away vet was only for the Sunday or wheneevr it was she'd posted that other thread, and then the other closer vet (a half hours drive away) was back to deal with the pregant mother cat!

heheheeeeee.... keep up the good work Buffie :thumbsup: I'd lose track without you.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Tje said:


> Buffie I am so bloody happy we you have you to keep us all on track. I think I remember now.... the 3 hour away vet was only for the Sunday or wheneevr it was she'd posted that other thread, and then the other closer vet (a half hours drive away) was back to deal with the pregant mother cat!
> 
> heheheeeeee.... keep up the good work Buffie :thumbsup: I'd lose track without you.


I'm just following this thread quietly ,waiting to hear a report from a vet ,any vet that has seen either of these cats


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> I'm just following this thread quietly ,waiting to hear a report from a vet ,any vet that has seen either of these cats


I knowwww.... an update would be nice 

I am still you're following this though.... it's gets so confusing after a while, lol.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But Havoc, surely it's more dangerous for the cat if we all said 'wait for the local vet'


I don't know in this case but at least I'll admit that. I'm not there. Would I want to risk a cat giving birth in my car when I'm an hour and a half from anywhere? On balance probably not. Wherever it originated the subject of it being 3 hours to an available vet was certainly raised on this thread or I wouldn't have seen it. I'm not trying to suggest that the worst case scenario can't happen, it can. I am suggesting that trying to frighten someone into taking a particular action can have the opposite effect. Not so much a case of what you say, more how you say it.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

havoc said:


> I don't know in this case but at least I'll admit that. I'm not there. *Would I want to risk a cat giving birth in my car when I'm an hour and a half from anywhere? On balance probably not.* Wherever it originated the subject of it being 3 hours to an available vet was certainly raised on this thread or I wouldn't have seen it. I'm not trying to suggest that the worst case scenario can't happen, it can. I am suggesting that trying to frighten someone into taking a particular action can have the opposite effect. Not so much a case of what you say, more how you say it.


I know, this is why I suggested a while ago that if this was the case maybe it would be a good idea to get her taken there, and leave her in the vets care in case there was an emergency situation.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's the chance of that situation arising on the journey there that would frighten someone into not going at all after all the talk of what might happen. Vets really do have differing opinions and making someone feel bad because their vet isn't one you'd agree with can't ever be helpful. Has this cat seen a vet? I don't know but there's nothing we can do about it. A little support and gentle persuasion might have worked. The moral outrage card never does.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

havoc said:


> It's the chance of that situation arising on the journey there that would frighten someone into not going at all after all the talk of what might happen. Vets really do have differing opinions and making someone feel bad because their vet isn't one you'd agree with can't ever be helpful. Has this cat seen a vet? I don't know but there's nothing we can do about it. A little support and gentle persuasion might have worked. *The moral outrage card never does*.


I don't think that was the case at all, well certainly not in the beginning. I have felt nothing but concern for the poor cat since the beginning. When it was clearly not getting through to the OP (she still hadn't taken her to the vet) it got a bit more direct yes.

Thinking on it though, perhaps this was aimed at Lizward for her comments on aborting the kittens?

Right now I'm concerned about the silence. I just hope the cat is OK, and that is all I have ever been worried about really.

As for the vet comment Havoc, if her vet said no to spaying/aborting at this stage (no one knows what stage she is at, only a vet who physically examines her would have an idea), were we supposed to say "OK, fair enough"? Don't you think advising the OP that other vets will do it, and to find a better one is the way forward?

I really don't understand. Are you worried about the OP or the cat?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> It's the chance of that situation arising on the journey there that would frighten someone into not going at all after all the talk of what might happen. Vets really do have differing opinions and making someone feel bad because their vet isn't one you'd agree with can't ever be helpful. Has this cat seen a vet? I don't know but there's nothing we can do about it. A little support and gentle persuasion might have worked. The moral outrage card never does.


Havoc, That's like me saying you sharing your owns hands on experiences the other week of vets wrongly prescribing and providing insufficient warnings with the use of oral metacam is akin to you trying to scare that OP off of using metacam. Or that you were playing your moral outrage card. Of course I don't think you were doing that, you were sharing real and genuine concerns based on real life experience. It would be nice if you gave the same benefit of the doubt to other posters when they question vets on other matters.

You have issues with vets wrongly prescribing metacam, I don't… others amongst us have other issues with vets.

To tell an OP, based on our own experiences that not all vets are equally qualified on the matter of pregnancy & birthing in growth stunted females is not us doing so simply because we don't like her vet. It's because it's in the best interests of her cat. If I was the OP I would welcome these type of responses, because the more information I have, the better able I am to make a decision. Heck we had a vet tell an OP the other day to bathe her her 1 day old kittens (every other day) to get rid of fleas. Just because a vet said it, doesn't mean it's good or safe advice. And just because someone challenges it, doesn't mean they are doing so out of a sense of malice or just to tone moral outrage, it could actually save a few kittens lives just to get a flea comb and a dish of washing up liquid out.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

buffie said:


> I'm just following this thread quietly ,waiting to hear a report from a vet ,any vet that has seen either of these cats


both cats have been seen to the kitten was seen the day after i found she had uterine crystals and is now on antiBs.... baby the pregnant queen is between 7-8 weeks gone the vet estimated 4 kittens and her pelvis is large enough to give birth he said to watch her very close as i was and she will most likely be able to do it on her own i have a xray booked in next week to determine everything correctly my cat is only 1 kgs smaller than your average queen.... she is in perfect health ... vet said it isnt the best thing for her to have kittens but there is 
NO ver who will spay/abort after 4 weeks in my suburb or the surrounding suburbs unless its a emergency which in this case its not he will be waiting for my phone call if i need him when shes giving birth ....hope that has answer everyones questions.... and i hope that you all realise that i was always going to take her to the vet availablity is a issue here .... also in our rescues atm we have 3 cats and 2 kittens that is it we dont have very many stray/feral cats here as you all know i got my kitten from a rescue well both of them i am always going in donating and taking cats/kittens treats so i do know that abandoned cats are not a big problem here


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## MaryA (Oct 8, 2010)

I appreciate you replying and letting us know how things are. I can see that many here are very worried, and wish for happy outcome. Please keep in touch and let us know how things work out.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Thank ---- for that! That is good news, and I hope the x-ray next week confirms the vets thoughts


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> both cats have been seen to the kitten was seen the day after i found she had uterine crystals and is now on antiBs.... baby the pregnant queen is between 7-8 weeks gone the vet estimated 4 kittens and her pelvis is large enough to give birth he said to watch her very close as i was and she will most likely be able to do it on her own i have a xray booked in next week to determine everything correctly my cat is only 1 kgs smaller than your average queen.... she is in perfect health ... vet said it isnt the best thing for her to have kittens but there is
> NO ver who will spay/abort after 4 weeks in my suburb or the surrounding suburbs unless its a emergency which in this case its not he will be waiting for my phone call if i need him when shes giving birth ....hope that has answer everyones questions.... and i hope that you all realise that i was always going to take her to the vet availablity is a issue here .... also in our rescues atm we have 3 cats and 2 kittens that is it we dont have very many stray/feral cats here as you all know i got my kitten from a rescue well both of them i am always going in donating and taking cats/kittens treats so i do know that abandoned cats are not a big problem here


Thank you for the update .Good to read that at least at the moment everything appears to be ok.It is very difficult on a forum like this to be able to express ,sometimes, the worries that people have ,especially when some of the members on here are involved in rescue,welfare work.They see and hear things that must be upsetting.The fact that you are on the other side of the world doesnt help:lol:Out of interest what weight is your pregnant lady?Please let us know how you get on over the next few weeks.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

currently pregnant she is 3250 grams so 3.2 kgs vets did a weigh in she was between 2.5 and 3 before being pregnant at vets when i got her she was under 1kg when 6 months old and around a year later she was 2570gm


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> currently pregnant she is 3350 grams so 3.3 kgs vets did a weigh in she was between 2.5 and 3 before being pregnant at vets when i got her she was under 1kg when 6 months old and around a year later she was 2570gm


Thanks for getting back with that.It is always good to have something to compare with should a similar situation come up again .May help to stop folks worrying,but I doubt it


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

it is worrying but i do understand where everyone is coming from i didnt take offence to any of it if i didnt know my cat personalloy i would prob think the same yes she does look tiny which her height and lenght is but her weight is not i have always owned very big spayed males never spayed females so i had no idea what a average females weight is .... the vet said that if the male she mated with is a average male she wont have trouble he said its like mating a staffoshire with a rottweiler


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks for getting abck to us Mumof2, I wish you and your Baby all the best!! You do know you are obliged to post pics as soon as the kittens are born.... those are the rules, lol. :thumbsup:


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

haha yes i remember the rules from when my bitch had her pups vet said she was having around 5 she had 8 7 girls and one poor boy but luckily as i wanted to keep a boy and i didnt have to choose hehe baby is booked in to be spayed when the kittens are 12 weeks


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Hey in the interests of the future and possibility of others having similar worries, would you do us a massive favour mummyxofx2?

Could you post a picture of her with something recognisable next to her (perhaps a mobile phone, Ipod, something like that?) to give folk an idea that even though a cat can look small they can be quite heavy? Pictures can be so deceiving, and I think this is where most of the worry came from. I'd really appreciate it, as I'm sure others would as well


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> and she also wont look very big if she is only 2 kilos.


I meant big in the tummy

Liz


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

her tummy isnt actually very big everytime i pic the cam up to take a pic of her belly she stands and you cant make it out when shes standing


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mummyxofx2 said:


> the pregnant queen is between 7-8 weeks gone the vet estimated 4 kittens


Just one word of caution - don't rely on either of these figures, vets are well known for getting both these wrong!

Liz


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Hey in the interests of the future and possibility of others having similar worries, would you do us a massive favour mummyxofx2?
> 
> Could you post a picture of her with something recognisable next to her (perhaps a mobile phone, Ipod, something like that?) to give folk an idea that even though a cat can look small they can be quite heavy? Pictures can be so deceiving, and I think this is where most of the worry came from. I'd really appreciate it, as I'm sure others would as well


yes i can do that for you will get one very shortly


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

lizward said:


> Just one word of caution - don't rely on either of these figures, vets are well known for getting both these wrong!
> 
> Liz


haha yes i know that from when i bred my bitch .... xray next week to determine size and how many


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

here is the queen with my large remote and my small phone


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Objects in the foreground always look larger than objects in the background. Could you put the remote control on top of her, if people still want to know?

I keep hoping we'll all log in one morning and find a birth announcement from you.

Liz


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

hi, i just wanted to say good luck with everything, your girl is beautiful. 

i have attached a pic of my girl, she is the tortie and fully grown, she has had 2 litters, 3 of her kits are in the pic with her and are about 4 months old and also my fully grown tom, he is average size. she has had no difficuties kittening.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

awwww how cute is that i have always wanted a torti but can nver find one ... they must be popular hehe and thank you very much for your kind words


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## Snowy's_Mummy (Oct 11, 2010)

Hi, Sorry to go a bit off topic, but this thread is making me paranoid that my cat is unhealthily small. She is 13 months old and weighs 2.8kg. Is this very unusual?

Edit: P.S. She looks about the same size as mummyxofx2's cat in the picture above, but I am sure she has never experienced malnutrition or ill health.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

What breed is she Snowy?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Snowy's_Mummy said:


> Hi, Sorry to go a bit off topic, but this thread is making me paranoid that my cat is unhealthily small. She is 13 months old and weighs 2.8kg. Is this very unusual?
> 
> Edit: P.S. She looks about the same size as mummyxofx2's cat in the picture above, but I am sure she has never experienced malnutrition or ill health.


at 2.8kg she is on the lower side of normal, but she still has time to put some more condition on as she matures xx


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## Snowy's_Mummy (Oct 11, 2010)

She is a cross breed. Her father is a chinchilla persian, her mother is half chinchilla persian crossed with half silver british short hair.


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## Snowy's_Mummy (Oct 11, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> at 2.8kg she is on the lower side of normal, but she still has time to put some more condition on as she matures xx


Thanks, I think she is healthy, just at the smaller end of normal as you said.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Chinnies are quite small and persians in general are very light for their size, in my experience.

Liz


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## Snowy's_Mummy (Oct 11, 2010)

lizward said:


> Chinnies are quite small and persians in general are very light for their size, in my experience.
> 
> Liz


Thank you for the reassurance. I thought this was the case, but the comments about some breeders deliberately breeding undersized persians made me concerned.


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