# Malamute Off Lead!



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Really nice and rather rare in my area to see a Malamute off lead today on our walk! Its such an unusual sight but his owner was encouraged by the Breeder to train him from a pup in an enclosed Park to walk to Heel, recall etc and as an Adult he is now able to enjoy his walks without being leashed.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

I know a Malamute and a Northern Inuit who are both perfect off lead, it's a rare sight to see but lovely


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Don't the breed club for many of the Northern breeds state that they should not be off lead outside of a fenced in area? while I'm sure you get many individuals that are untypical for the breed, I probably wouldn't like to take the risk.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

OP, duck for the flak. I agree with you though. Any breed of dog that is considered suitable to live as a pet should be able to be trained to be off lead.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

imo there is nothing wrong with any dog irrespective of breed being off the lead in a safe area away from traffic provided the dog has solid recall.

My only problem with any dog off lead is when we are approach by a dog with no recall skills, no manners and I have to try to keep both dogs apart.

We were walking alongside the main Road my dog was on the lead, we were passed by a guy running flanked by two Malamutes off lead. There were no problems. I didn't agree with the dogs been off lead walking along the main road, but hey his dogs not mine - they were well trained.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

I know I would not let a husky off lead but malamutes, nope, not an issue.

Personally wouldn't let beagles off, never recall!


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2014)

kare said:


> I know I would not let a husky off lead but malamutes, nope, not an issue.
> 
> Personally wouldn't let beagles off, never recall!


My grandfather raised beagles. They most certainly can and do recall. 
As do malamutes, and huskies, and sighthounds.....

Of course you keep breed traits in mind and dont try to pretend they dont exist. 
There is a reason cowboys dont herd cattle with bloodhounds while riding clydesdales.

However, breed traits are just that - traits. Not absolutes. And dogs are all individuals. Work with the traits and to your dogs strengths, sure, but dont shackle yourself with the breed rules either. JMO


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If you post pics of Mals off lead in the groups you have to state that they are in secure areas, in case anyone assumes its okay to just chance it. Seen a few off lead and seen a couple who were great off lead but suddenly did a runner. Two on one of the groups recently shot dead by a farmer, livestock too much of a temptation. Two beautiful working Mals who always took instruction, owner inconsolable. Never, ever worth that risk - not if you really know the breed! 

RIP Marley and Sassy. xx


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2014)

I found myself nodding in agreement with a lot of points in this article. I especially like the analogy with collie breed traits 

Myth Busting the Breeds: The Husky - K9 High Dog Training Inc



> Misconception 3) They can never be let off leash.
> 
> This to me is one of the most upsetting and most common misconceptions I've heard about the majority of breeds. It's not just huskies that get this bad rap, but other northern breeds such as the malemute, or the hounds like the basset, beagle, or greyhound.
> 
> ...


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

It's great when any dog, irrespective of breed, has a recall that is reliable.

There are always exceptions to every rule


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

It's lovely to see and hear Cbcdesign  I very much believe every dog is an individual and therefore am not a fan of blanket stereotypes being put upon a whole breed. As Ouesi said, yes, take breed traits into consideration, but that shouldn't be the be all and end all.

I met a lady the other week with an Elkhound who went on to tell me her dog had never been off lead as it was advised by the breeder to never do so! I found myself wondering how they knew exactly what their dog was like off lead if they'd never tried it? You know? 

As for dogs just running off at the drop of a hat after livestock or whatever, I think we can all safely say many breeds/types of dogs fall into this category. My Ty would absolutely blow a recall command and run after livestock. In fact his recall in general is very mediocre. I often get ignored while he's sniffing a really nice smelling blade of grass  However it's 'good enough' if that makes sense to allow him off lead the majority of the time in quiet areas.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2014)

Malmum said:


> If you post pics of Mals off lead in the groups you have to state that they are in secure areas, in case anyone assumes its okay to just chance it. Seen a few off lead and seen a couple who were great off lead but suddenly did a runner. Two on one of the groups recently shot dead by a farmer, livestock too much of a temptation. Two beautiful working Mals who always took instruction, owner inconsolable. Never, ever worth that risk - not if you really know the breed!
> 
> RIP Marley and Sassy. xx


No dog is 100% reliable. NO dog.

And who walks their dog - of ANY breed loose around livestock? 
To me thats just rude to the farmer, they dont know what kind of recall your dog has.

Around here a lot of the bigger herds have LGD or donkeys and Im sure not giving them any reason to start feeling protective!


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Me and my collies walk sometimes with a neighbour that has a husky. We walk through fields (mainly crops but some with horses) and she always has the husky off lead with the exception of when we are walking in the field with the horses. 

Personally I love watching the husky running with my dogs chasing the ball or going in the stream with my two, and it to date has never "bolted". Though it can't quite keep up with my border collie for the ball ;-)

However she has trained the dog and generally will only let it off when she is more isolated like fields as opposed to say a playing field or park. 

All dogs have traits but it's a matter on controlling it and being sensible. No dog has 100% recall.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Malamutes are known for being better off the lead than other northern breeds however people still choose not to let them off. 

As a husky owner, I cannot condone or recommend off the lead. They are fantastic and pretending they are listening to you and pretending you are the most interesting person in the world only to see something more interesting 1/2/3 miles away and decide they are off. 

I find it interesting that most people who claim you can train a solid recall into a Sibe, doesn't own a sibe. Blade perfectly recalls in obedience class and when we are in an enclosed paddock but I would not trust him for a second out in the open. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion, I love my dogs too much to risk losing them in a split second of madness.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Malmum said:


> If you post pics of Mals off lead in the groups you have to state that they are in secure areas, in case anyone assumes its okay to just chance it. Seen a few off lead and seen a couple who were great off lead but suddenly did a runner. Two on one of the groups recently shot dead by a farmer, livestock too much of a temptation. Two beautiful working Mals who always took instruction, owner inconsolable. Never, ever worth that risk - not if you really know the breed!
> 
> RIP Marley and Sassy. xx


That is very sad but you could insert any breed in that story. My poodles are unstoppable if a rabbit goes up in front of them. I am fairly sure they would chase sheep too. They have to be on the lead a lot more than my collies were but I am not going to keep them on the lead all the time just in case. I can assure you poodles will keep running for ever just like a northern breed too. My standards got away after a rabbit once and kept going for a mile till they got to the shore then carried on running in random directions completely out of control for about half an hour.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Malamutes are known for being better off the lead than other northern breeds however people still choose not to let them off.
> 
> As a husky owner, I cannot condone or recommend off the lead. They are fantastic and pretending they are listening to you and pretending you are the most interesting person in the world only to see something more interesting 1/2/3 miles away and decide they are off.
> 
> I find it interesting that most people who claim you can train a solid recall into a Sibe, doesn't own a sibe. Blade perfectly recalls in obedience class and when we are in an enclosed paddock but I would not trust him for a second out in the open. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion, *I love my dogs too much to risk losing them in a split second of madness.*


LOL I was wondering when the bolded would show up  Because those who have a sibe with a reliable recall and allow said dog off leash when safe to do so, (i.e.: not in the middle of a sheep pasture or along side a busy road), clearly dont love their dog as much as a real sibe owner who really knows the breed.

So I in turn find it interesting that any time someone does have a sibe with a safe recall they are dismissed as a fluke or told they dont really know the breed. And of course dont love their dog as much as those who keep them leashed.

I also wonder how those of us with mutt dogs of unknown origin ever managed to train our dogs to do anything without a breed expert telling us what our dog can and cannot do 

I think more often than not recall problems with dogs like sibes and sighthounds are more a function of a self-fulfilling prophesy based on suggestions by breed experts than they are a function of actual breed traits. 
Im not dismissing breed traits BTW, just saying dont be shackled by them.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

ouesi said:


> LOL I was wondering when the bolded would show up  Because those who have a sibe with a reliable recall and allow said dog off leash when safe to do so, (i.e.: not in the middle of a sheep pasture or along side a busy road), clearly dont love their dog as much as a real sibe owner who really knows the breed.
> 
> So I in turn find it interesting that any time someone does have a sibe with a safe recall they are dismissed as a fluke or told they dont really know the breed. And of course dont love their dog as much as those who keep them leashed.
> 
> ...


When you hear the amount of horror stories about people who fall into the trap of thinking their dog is fine offlead only for it to do the complete opposite , this is where you get this point of view from. It takes literally a split second for them to change their mind and they will and can run for miles & miles without stopping. They do not fear roads or cars and I very much doubt there is anywhere in the UK 10's or 100's of miles away from a road or a car. One local to me slipped it's lead and was found 40 miles away from home, having actually wandered onto a train for part of it's journey and was spotted on CCTV departing said train at its destination.

I have no doubt Blade would mostly be fine off lead and I am often told by lots of people I should let him off and trust him but I just can't and won't. I will religiously train and practice recall with my dogs in a safe environment and will continue to go out of my way to find safe offlead environments for him and the rest of them. :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> When you hear the amount of horror stories about people who fall into the trap of thinking their dog is fine offlead only for it to do the complete opposite , this is where you get this point of view from. It takes literally a split second for them to change their mind and they will and can run for miles & miles without stopping. They do not fear roads or cars and I very much doubt there is anywhere in the UK 10's or 100's of miles away from a road or a car. One local to me slipped it's lead and was found 40 miles away from home, having actually wandered onto a train for part of it's journey and was spotted on CCTV departing said train at its destination.


Again, you could say the above for all sorts of breeds and mixes. Its not a sibe thing to blow a recall and run off, its a dog thing.

Letting any dog off leash is a risk. As an owner its our job to weigh that risk and yes, one of the factors you use to weigh that risk is knowledge of your dog. If your dog is not safe off leash of course you should not let him/her off. But if your dog IS safe off leash that he/she is a certain breed should not be the deciding factor. Knowing your *individual* dog and his/her behavior should be.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Malamutes are known for being better off the lead than other northern breeds however people still choose not to let them off.
> 
> As a husky owner, I cannot condone or recommend off the lead. They are fantastic and pretending they are listening to you and pretending you are the most interesting person in the world only to see something more interesting 1/2/3 miles away and decide they are off.
> 
> I find it interesting that most people who claim you can train a solid recall into a Sibe, doesn't own a sibe. Blade perfectly recalls in obedience class and when we are in an enclosed paddock but I would not trust him for a second out in the open. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion, I love my dogs too much to risk losing them in a split second of madness.


So really the issue is with you and not with your dog? Again, how can you know for sure how your dog is off lead if you've never really tried it?

I'd actually be very interested to compare my Ty's recall to your Sibe's recall. I can tell you now, if he wanted to go he'd be off in a heartbeat too. I love my dog too but I weigh the risks up accordingly.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> So really the issue is with you and not with your dog? Again, how can you know for sure how your dog is off lead if you've never really tried it?
> 
> I'd actually be very interested to compare my Ty's recall to your Sibe's recall. I can tell you now, if he wanted to go he'd be off in a heartbeat too. I love my dog too but I weigh the risks up accordingly.


Because with my knowledge of the breed and the advise of people who have owned the breed for 40+ years I would never risk it. If he ran away I would never be able to keep up with him, they are capable of running up to 25Mph with ease and as noted before aren't afraid of cars and have absolutely no road sense.

Also with Skyla and Shelby I have signed a contract agreeing that they will never be let off lead in areas other than fully enclosed fields with a mininum 6ft fence.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Because with my knowledge of the breed and the advise of people who have owned the breed for 40+ years I would never risk it. *If he ran away I would never be able to keep up with him, they are capable of running up to 25Mph with ease and as noted before aren't afraid of cars and have absolutely no road sense. *


I don't know too many owners who can keep up with their dog regardless of breed. I certainly can't keep up with either of mine if they decide to run away - and I can run!

As for road sense, I don't know ANY breed that has road sense.

So again, not a sibe thing. A dog thing. 

Just so you know, I'm not knocking your choice to keep your dogs on lead - your dogs your choice. Just saying sibes are not some special snowflake breed with a set of skills and/or problems unknown to any other dog breed that makes them incapable of learning recall or being safely off-lead.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I dont know too many owners who can keep up with their dog regardless of breed. I* certainly cant keep up with either of mine if they decide to run away - and I can run!*
> As for road sense, I dont know ANY breed that has road sense.
> 
> So again, not a sibe thing. A dog thing.
> ...


You should see me trying to play 'chase' in the garden with Io. I can never catch her and it looks like she barely moves :lol:


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I dont know too many owners who can keep up with their dog regardless of breed. I certainly cant keep up with either of mine if they decide to run away - and I can run!
> 
> As for road sense, I dont know ANY breed that has road sense.
> 
> ...


This ^^^

I'm not really understanding how Sibe's have a unique behaviour different to any other dog. They run after livestock? Show me a dog that doesn't! They have high prey drive? So do sighthounds! They run fast? So do sighthounds! They have no road sense? What dog does!

It just appears to me that the breed has been ( rightly or wrongly ) stereotyped and/or made out to somehow have a different mind-set when it comes to being off lead which I find hard to believe. But then I don't own the breed and never will, so perhaps it's all true and they do think/act differently to any other dog!


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## crazydogs (Aug 13, 2011)

I have an 18 month old Lurcher at the moment and have had 2 ex racing greyhounds all have been trained to recall. These type of dogs are meant to be kept on the lead so people say but i put the time and effort into training them and never had a problem. 
Maybe a fluke i just got good dogs i don't know but no problems. I wouldn't allow them off lead near livestock ect but then again i wouldn't with my Chihuahuas either as they think they are the size of Great Danes and they would also chase sheep ect and considering the size they can run like tiny whippets.
My Lurcher even if she ran upto another dog (not that she does) loves toy breeds, cats and the same for my previous Greyhounds.
Just because i let my dogs off the lead doesn't mean i don't love them like one person is suggesting. :frown2:
I think you have to look at each individual dog and decide if they should be let of the lead, if they have poor recall fine keep them on the lead that's perfectly understandable. 
But other owners shouldn't be judge with certain breeds because they can let their dogs off lead.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> This ^^^
> 
> I'm not really understanding how Sibe's have a unique behaviour different to any other dog. They run after livestock? Show me a dog that doesn't! They have high prey drive? So do sighthounds! They run fast? So do sighthounds! They have no road sense? What dog does!
> 
> It just appears to me that the breed has been ( rightly or wrongly ) stereotyped and/or made out to somehow have a different mind-set when it comes to being off lead which I find hard to believe. But then I don't own the breed and never will, so perhaps it's all true and they do think/act differently to any other dog!


Yeah - Io is a mutt and she'd happily chase livestock... shes constantly catching mice as her prey drive is so high, shes quick on a scent and yes what dog has road sense??


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

My dog had dreadful recall. Seriously, I couldn't trust him not to bolt. Once I nearly lost him
But after a lot of work on the long line and flexi, I can let him off. I can trust him to come back. The other day he came back after he was about a cm from a squirrel. (mid chase)
It was not luck or a fluke, just a lot of long line work. But you can never trust any dog 100%. My mum won`t let him off in case he does a runner, so I accept that some people don't like their dogs off lead.


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## Dobermutt (Jan 22, 2014)

Somebody at our regular walking place has a Malamute/Husky cross, who is more often than not, off leash. This is a very large field, but one side isn't enclosed at all and certainly wouldn't be safe for a dog who was likely to make a run for it! On many occasions I've seen this dog running about, completely out of control. The field backs onto a train track, and every time a train goes by, this dog is always hurtling toward it, trying to catch it. Thankfully there are massive fences. Not too long ago, this dog ran past us and right up to some young children at full speed. Children were terrified, and the little girl was running away and this only caused the dog to get more worked up to the point where he was jumping up at this tiny girl, whom he towered over!  She was terrified and it took the owner about 5 minutes to actually regain complete control of his dog. Really, his dog is never reliable off leash, I've witnessed him jump feet into the air to get to peoples faces, grab balls from owners, pester other dogs and most of the time, this is after he's run the entire distance (full pelt) from one end of the field to the other just to do this! 

On the other hand, there's another Malamute that's walked at this field and she is always focused on her owner - the only time she seems to run off, is when there's another dog, but even this is rare. 

From what I've seen, though, I definitely think it's so much safer for everyone, dog included, to keep him/her on the lead


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

My dogs recall isn't 100%, I'd say its 90% but I way up the different situations. She isn't the sort of dog to just disappear, she always comes back but occassionally its more when SHE feels like it.

If we're in an area with lot's of tempting wildlife, near livestock, roads etc then she is on a lead, if we're in an area with just fields, no roads etc then she is off lead.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> They run after livestock? Show me a dog that doesn't!












There is one :thumbup1:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> There is one :thumbup1:


I think its more so, that not every dog will chase livestock, but may dogs of _variest_ breeds will.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Dobermutt said:


> Somebody at our regular walking place has a Malamute/Husky cross, who is more often than not, off leash. This is a very large field, but one side isn't enclosed at all and certainly wouldn't be safe for a dog who was likely to make a run for it! On many occasions I've seen this dog running about, completely out of control. The field backs onto a train track, and every time a train goes by, this dog is always hurtling toward it, trying to catch it. Thankfully there are massive fences. Not too long ago, this dog ran past us and right up to some young children at full speed. Children were terrified, and the little girl was running away and this only caused the dog to get more worked up to the point where he was jumping up at this tiny girl, whom he towered over!  She was terrified and it took the owner about 5 minutes to actually regain complete control of his dog. Really, his dog is never reliable off leash, I've witnessed him jump feet into the air to get to peoples faces, grab balls from owners, pester other dogs and most of the time, this is after he's run the entire distance (full pelt) from one end of the field to the other just to do this!
> 
> On the other hand, there's another Malamute that's walked at this field and she is always focused on her owner - the only time she seems to run off, is when there's another dog, but even this is rare.
> 
> From what I've seen, though, I definitely think it's so much safer for everyone, dog included, to keep him/her on the lead


As stated already, you could apply that observation to most dog's in your local park. My Ty was awful in his youth. He's somewhat better than he was, but to be honest I wouldn't even say his recall is at 90% let alone 99% ( because of course no dog has 100% recall ). But if it's a relatively quiet area I allow him off. Does he come back when called first time? Does he hell! I usually have to walk to him to pop him back on lead  and still to this day he will leg it after another dog. Hence why he's only allowed off in relatively quiet areas, which thankfully, there is an abundance of quiet walks local to me


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> There is one :thumbup1:


To be fair, my terrier girly doesn't either  But you know what I mean. There are far more dog's that do give chase than don't!

But as ouesi already said, you'd assume most dog owner's are walking their dog ( of any breed ) on lead around livestock anyway. So not sure how that even amounts to a reason why any dog is unreliable off lead.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

At the end of the day, all Husky / Northern breed owners want to protect their breed and the reputation of their breed. Which is why they are recommended as a " Never off the lead" dog. I will stand by that recommendation till the day I die and will continue to support and promote not letting your Husky / Malamute or Husky cross off the lead. 

I would hate for some inexperienced owner to read this thread and think it acceptable to let their Sibe off the lead , only for it to get mowed down by a car or shot by a farmer for pestering live stock.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

I think you have to look at the individual dog as to whether it can be offlead. I kinda think that starting off with the "This XYZ dog cannot be let offlead" kinda sets it up for failure anyway? I met a Borzoi owner and they said that Borzoi's are near impossible to train so they haven't really bothered. So it kinda perpetuates it? I don't know really. If you cannot/choose not to let them offlead then usually people find other ways to entertain/stimulate their pet, so I don't think the dogs are missing out particularly?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Huskies _mostly_ off lead - https://www.flickr.com/photos/billnbenj/sets/72157628235284473/

And again...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/billnbenj/sets/72157643400809133/



( He's a contact of mine on Flickr and am sure he won't mind me linking you to his albums. )


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> At the end of the day, all Husky / Northern breed owners want to protect their breed and the reputation of their breed. Which is why they are recommended as a " Never off the lead" dog. I will stand by that recommendation till the day I die and will continue to support and promote not letting your Husky / Malamute or Husky cross off the lead.
> 
> I would hate for some inexperienced owner to read this thread and think it acceptable to let their Sibe off the lead , *only for it to get mowed down by a car or shot by a farmer for pestering live stock*.


Surely that could happen to any dog?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Surely that could happen to any dog?


You really do need to make your mind up Hannah, one minute you say " I would never have a husky as they cannot go off lead" and the next you are joining in the march against responsible husky owners advocating always on lead.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Surely that could happen to any dog?


It could. It's not unique to any one breed.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> You really do need to make your mind up Hannah, one minute you say " I would never have a husky as they cannot go off lead" and the next you are joining in the march against responsible husky owners advocating always on lead.


I don't understand Huskies clearly...... and I only go by what people say. I am always under the assumption that they cannot be off lead but then when people have their view about off lead and mention things that other breeds of dogs can also do then I think twice, I do sometimes get the impression that huskies seem to be this somewhat unique breed of dog that is far different to all other breeds and yet most dogs like to run, most will chase livestock etc.

I would never have a husky so my view can be whatever it wants to be.

I for one didn't realise that malamutes were generally an onlead dog as I often see photos of them off lead but then what do I know?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Surely we should go by the individual dog? Rupert was more than likely a Lab/German Wirehaired Pointer mix, a mix you'd generally think fairly safe to be off leash (with training and in appropriate areas of course but that goes for ANY dog) but I can assure you he would take off after prey as quickly as any husky in spite of that. With more intent than the huskies I've seen give chase too. And he'd actually go looking for prey, not just chase if the opportunity arose. And you know what? People argued with me about my decision to keep him on leash. I just wasn't training him properly, it's not like he was a husky or beagle or sighthound after all! He was a gundog type!

Nothing gets said about huskies and malamutes that can't be applied to other breeds or individuals. I see people saying beagles shouldn't be off leash either yet I know several who have recall as good as my labs, some better! No dog is 100% reliable, we all take a risk each and every time we let our dogs off leash. And I think in a lot of cases it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy to be honest. People hear that this breed can't do this, that breed can't do that and what do you know, their dog of that breed "proves the point" apparently. Well no, it doesn't. Most of them hear that it can't be done so they don't bother even trying therefore the dog can't do it. 

I'm not slating anyone for doing what they feel best for their dog by the way. Your dog, your choice at the end of the day. But if someone feels their dog has good enough recall to let their dog off leash then that's also their choice, regardless of breed imo. Not talking those whose dogs are rushing up to all and sundry here, again that happens with other breeds and Labs, a highly trainable breed, seem to be one of the worst culprits. I'm talking those who've put in the work to get a reliable recall.

And Spencer doesn't chase livestock or deer either  A treat in the hand is worth many treats on the hoof as far as he's concerned lol.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> At the end of the day, all Husky / Northern breed owners want to protect their breed and the reputation of their breed. Which is why they are recommended as a " Never off the lead" dog.


Would you say all northern breeds or just huskies and mals?


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Like i said i only see one person regularly who walks her malamute and northern inuit off lead and they're great. I've seen someone with 3 huskies who were all off lead and well behaved too (better behaved than Apollo) though i mostly see huskies on lead and don't have a problem with it, i know a lad who has a husky he's never let off lead and that's his choice

my problem is people keep saying they will run off after livestock and get shot or get run over, well what kind of owner lets their dog ANY dog off around livestock??? especially certain breeds or even just dogs that owners know have a high prey drive?? I'm sure their are plenty of parks and walks that don't have livestock around surely?? the same goes for roads, my labs i grew up with had perfect recall and would walk to heel all the time unless told they could wander off and stop and sit at crossings without being told, i still carried leads and leashed them when we got near any roads just out of common sense.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SageFemme said:


> Would you say all northern breeds or just huskies and mals?


I've heard the herding breeds are a _little_ better (I'm looking to getting a Finnish Lapphund in the distant future), we sometimes walk with a Samoyed (walked by a friend for the dog's owner) who can have selective deafness, but she will always keep us in sight.

However, this selective deafness becomes all encompassing deafness if her owner is walking her offlead & she spots us in the distance across the park, off she goes & nothing will get her to return except us lashing her & delivering her back to her owner personally!


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SageFemme said:


> Would you say all northern breeds or just huskies and mals?


I would say the Sled Haulers ( Sibes and Mals) there are northern herding breeds such as Samoyeds and Lapphunds who are more reliable off lead.

I do not doubt for a second that there will be and are sibes who go offlead and nothing bad ever happens. However look towards breed welfare , breed clubs and education all over the world who will tell you to keep your husky on it's leader and I will defend that statement anywhere and everywhere I go as will MOST husky owners.

Obviously everyone else knows better than the above so I'll make this my last post! :cornut:


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

Thanks, sorry was just my own curiosities as a soon-to-be samoyed owner


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SageFemme said:


> Thanks, sorry was just my own curiosities as a soon-to-be samoyed owner


Lots of pics when you become a Samoyed owner  We almost went with a Sammie but ended up adopting Skyla instead


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Lots of pics when you become a Samoyed owner  We almost went with a Sammie but ended up adopting Skyla instead


Hehe here's a teaser, not long now 

Skyla is gorgeous, I always love seeing your signature - such gorgeous doggies :001_wub:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SageFemme said:


> Hehe here's a teaser, not long now
> 
> Skyla is gorgeous, I always love seeing your signature - such gorgeous doggies :001_wub:


Is that your pup? She is just precious!


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Beagles shouldn't be off lead some would say and yet I see quite a few off lead every single day and none of their owners seem to have any difficulty with this. They come when called and trot along with their owners quite happily.

As for the Malamute I saw yesterday, in speaking to the owner it was his Dogs Breeder that recommended proper recall training because he believes its better for the dogs if they can be walked off lead on a regular basis. 

As he said, is it right that a Dog bred to Run spends its life on a Lead because its owners like the look of the Breed, but wont let it off lead and cannot provide a proper enclosed space in which to allow them to run either? With training the Dog at least gets to run around to some degree.

I think his Breeders thoughts on the matter are food for thought.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

simplysardonic said:


> Is that your pup? She is just precious!


Yes (he) lol. Only 13 days till we pick him up (not that I'm counting or anything  )


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

SageFemme said:


> Hehe here's a teaser, not long now
> 
> Skyla is gorgeous, I always love seeing your signature - such gorgeous doggies :001_wub:


Sooo cute  Little ball of fluff!

She is certainly a pretty girl but definitely has her moments does my Skyla! She ate an entire packet of Rhubarb and Custard sweets yesterday and vomited all over my kitchen :lol:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

SageFemme said:


> Yes (he) lol. Only 13 days till we pick him up (not that I'm counting or anything  )


He is gorgeous!! Have fun with the white hairs


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

cbcdesign said:


> Beagles shouldn't be off lead some would say and yet I see quite a few off lead every single day and none of their owners seem to have any difficulty with this. They come when called and trot along with their owners quite happily.
> 
> As for the Malamute I saw yesterday, in speaking to the owner it was his Dogs Breeder that recommended proper recall training because he believes its better for the dogs if they can be walked off lead on a regular basis.
> 
> ...


I'm not getting involved in the off lead debate but I don't think running off lead for an hour a day is fulfilling an innate desire to run and pull anyway.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

Hanwombat said:


> He is gorgeous!! Have fun with the white hairs


Haha thank you! I know, I mistakenly wore black to go and visit  :biggrin:


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

sharloid said:


> I'm not getting involved in the off lead debate but I don't think running off lead for an hour a day is fulfilling an innate desire to run and pull anyway.


I don't know anything about the Breed, I am merely repeating what the Owner was told by his Malamute Breeder.

I am sure you are right, an hour off lead wont replace an innate desire to run any more that a few minutes of Ball Fetching replaces the innate desire to round up Game for a Retriever. Something is better than nothing though was the point the Breeder was making I guess.

Actually I am not sure he was talking about mentality so much as the physical attributes of the Dog.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Sooo cute  Little ball of fluff!
> 
> She is certainly a pretty girl but definitely has her moments does my Skyla! She ate an entire packet of Rhubarb and Custard sweets yesterday and vomited all over my kitchen :lol:


:lol: awww bless her what a mischievous little monkey! :biggrin:


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

For a dog that demands a great deal of physical activity daily, how far do the owners of Sibe's that don't allow them off lead walk daily? Must be like 8 miles or more!  I couldn't be doing with that. I love walking...but only with my lot off up in front doing double


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> For a dog that demands a great deal of physical activity daily, how far do the owners of Sibe's that don't allow them off lead walk daily? Must be like 8 miles or more!  I couldn't be doing with that. I love walking...but only with my lot off up in front doing double


10 miles a day for me  3 or 4 on a morning and then another 6 or 7 on a night. Along with scootering / bikejoring / jogging and a 100ft leader


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> 10 miles a day for me  3 or 4 on a morning and then another 6 or 7 on a night. Along with scootering / bikejoring / jogging and a 100ft leader


:yikes::yikes:

That's why I dislike on lead walking so much. You have to walk further than you would otherwise! :laugh:


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> :yikes::yikes:
> 
> That's why I dislike on lead walking so much. You have to walk further than you would otherwise! :laugh:


That is -just- with the big ones  I walk Taz and Shelby separate from Blade and Skyla for the most part at the moment. Shelby is only 8 months old so gets 40 minutes ( about 2 and a half miles ) with little Taz. So I am probably wracking up closer to 15 miles a day. Probably why I've lost 5 stone in 17 months :lol:


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> That is -just- with the big ones  I walk Taz and Shelby separate from Blade and Skyla for the most part at the moment. Shelby is only 8 months old so gets 40 minutes ( about 2 and a half miles ) with little Taz. So I am probably wracking up closer to 15 miles a day. Probably why I've lost 5 stone in 17 months :lol:


I need to lose weight! Perhaps a Sibe is the way to go! 

Nah, seriously, I know all about separate walks, am having to do them myself with Cash. But I'm lucky that my older two only need the one walk a day really. They're pretty low energy and have always been used to that set up.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> For a dog that demands a great deal of physical activity daily, how far do the owners of Sibe's that don't allow them off lead walk daily? Must be like 8 miles or more!  I couldn't be doing with that. I love walking...but only with my lot off up in front doing double


Whilst racing huskies can still be able to run after 200 miles I don't think many pet huskies have the mental attitude (or physical actually) to be doing distances like that. They still might enjoy running and pulling but they aren't bred to have the drive a working husky needs.

So yes, my dogs and most of the huskies I know enjoy a lot of exercise, but they aren't absolutely crazy if they don't. Even kennelled working huskies usually have months off in the summer where they don't do much more than pottering in the yard waiting for cooler temps.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

sharloid said:


> Whilst racing huskies can still be able to run after 200 miles I don't think many pet huskies have the mental attitude (or physical actually) to be doing distances like that. They still might enjoy running and pulling but they aren't bred to have the drive a working husky needs.
> 
> So yes, my dogs and most of the huskies I know enjoy a lot of exercise, but they aren't absolutely crazy if they don't. Even kennelled working huskies usually have months off in the summer where they don't do much more than pottering in the yard waiting for cooler temps.


Husky Owners Unite! 

Again mine have the odd day off walking too and do not have the stamina of a REAL working dog. We can do about 5/6 miles on the scooter before mine don't want to go any further. During the extremely hot summer here mine were on severely reduced walks and were closer to 2-3 miles a day.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> :yikes::yikes:
> 
> That's why I dislike on lead walking so much. You have to walk further than you would otherwise! :laugh:


I go around 7-8 miles with Spen and he's off leash so god only knows how many miles he walks. We're out about 2 hours which is about what I'd expect to give a young, reasonably active dog tbh.

Most of the good husky owners I know don't just walk them. They bike with them or run with them or something.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> I go around 7-8 miles with Spen and he's off leash so god only knows how many miles he walks. We're out about 2 hours which is about what I'd expect to give a young, reasonably active dog tbh.
> 
> Most of the good husky owners I know don't just walk them. They bike with them or run with them or something.


I do nowhere near that with any of mine, and couldn't realistically see me doing so in the future so I'd be avoiding some really high energy breeds for that reason.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I go around 7-8 miles with Spen and he's off leash so god only knows how many miles he walks. We're out about 2 hours which is about what I'd expect to give a young, reasonably active dog tbh.
> 
> Most of the good husky owners I know don't just walk them. They bike with them or run with them or something.


We do about the same but split up into a couple of 3.1 mile walks in the morning and late afternoon, about an hour a piece. But we also play Fetch with a ball in our small Field once or twice a day and Duchess still has an abundance of Energy to spare.

I think if I lived in the right area and chose a Husky or Malamute as a Breed then scooters or something similar sounds like a lot of fun.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I generally do about 5-7 miles a day with Io. Mostly offlead but some of it is onlead as we have to walk through the village to get to the fields etc. I also occassionally run with her - though its on a soft surface and she is offlead - she is my personal trainer as if I start to lack she tries to bite my leg


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

cbcdesign said:


> We do about the same but split up into a couple of 3.1 mile walks in the morning and late afternoon, about an hour a piece. But we also play Fetch with a ball in our small Field once or twice a day and Duchess still has an abundance of Energy to spare.
> 
> I think if I lived in the right area and chose a Husky or Malamute as a Breed then scooters or something similar sounds like a lot of fun.


We LOVE the scooter as well as the bike attachment I really need to get a speedometer app on my phone and see how fast we go


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I occasionally walk with someone who lets her Sibe off lead. 

She researched the breed and then asked breeders and owners about the lead issue. Basically she felt that she'd do loads of recall training and see how it went. If she didn't trust her dog to be off lead then she wouldn't let her off lead, simple as. She got her pup and did loads of training, and now happily lets her off lead in safe areas. No where near livestock, or farms, things like that, and her recall is better than Nooka's  Although if she decides to stop listening and bog off there isn't much you can do except go after her, she goes a bit deaf.

Her sibe's dad however was pts after he persistently worried (and attacked) local livestock. He used to escape and go after them and they felt they couldn't control him any more which is sad. (I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm sure there were other options than pts, but I wasn't going to go into an argument about it...)

I do think you have to think carefully about letting your dog off lead if it is a breed that is prone to just bogging off after a scent/chase. But then all dogs are individuals so whatever breed you own you are always taking a risk letting your dog off lead.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cbcdesign said:


> We do about the same but split up into a couple of 3.1 mile walks in the morning and late afternoon, about an hour a piece. But we also play Fetch with a ball in our small Field once or twice a day and Duchess still has an abundance of Energy to spare.
> 
> I think if I lived in the right area and chose a Husky or Malamute as a Breed then scooters or something similar sounds like a lot of fun.


We do the one long walk around the fields or through the woods and multiple short ones, usually just round the block for a pee since we don't have a garden. We also play ball out front where it's reasonably safe. Spen would take a hell of a lot more if I chose to give it but I've stuck to what I know is realistic while working a full time job rather than give him loads now and then have to cut it back massively when I find a job  He's content with it so all's good.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> 10 miles a day for me  3 or 4 on a morning and then another 6 or 7 on a night. Along with scootering / bikejoring / jogging and a 100ft leader


Russell read that and says he's a sibe in a tiny body and is coming to live with you!

As an aside, my husband and daughter were walking these two off lead yesterday in an enclosed football field and a husky appeared off lead and made a bee line for Russell. Russell had an apoplexy and high tailed it back to the humans and my husband admitted he was panicking. Then the husky took off, wouldn't recall and Shadow decided that looked like a right laugh and took off after it. Neither recalled but Shadow didn't leave the field and Shadow has been trained to recall up the yin yang. Apparently My hilarious daughter said that my husband would have needed to administer CPR if mum (me) had been there.

Mine get about 45 mins off lead running about a day and days were it is just pavement walks. Both could do more but I'm reluctant to build Russell up any more as he literally could go all day and I worry about Shadows joints. Plus, they are rarely alone for more than 3 hours a day three days a week so are always tearing round the garden, being played with etc.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

It's interesting everyone who thinks it's ok to let sibes off lead don't actually own them, just know someone with one. 

There is a good reason that the breed clubs, rescues and good breeders say not to. 

It's nothing to do with lack of obedience, an obedience champion ran off and got hit by a car. 

Sibes are sneaky about it as well, dear me Roxie is a bugger for it sometimes in the enclosed dog parks. She'll just lag behind sniffing something then she'll turn around and walk another direction, she'll ignore you if she's persistent enough and if you go after her she'll increase her pace. It's a rare thing but I, myself and my husband have gone running after her and she's not exactly in fit condition (she's lost a lot of weight though), I dread to think of one that is.


They are escape artists, they are runners, they are thinkers and they have a high prey drive. Combine all those into one dog and it's a problem.


Malamutes for the most part are case by case, if Maya had not been as lazy as she had been then she would have stayed on lead all the time although she stayed on lead a fair bit because she was grumpy lol 


The people who allow them to be off lead out of a fenced and secured place are just playing with fire, you may not get burned but there's a very high chance you will.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

SpringerHusky said:


> It's interesting everyone who thinks it's ok to let sibes off lead don't actually own them, just know someone with one.
> 
> There is a good reason that the breed clubs, rescues and good breeders say not to.
> 
> ...


But you see again, while I don't doubt this is the case with the majority of the breed, how can that be a unique trait to Huskies? It appears that while defending the breed Husky owners are somehow thinking of their dog as being unique in it's breed traits and somehow much more challenging...but yet the reasons given are all reasons that you could apply to any breed.. Every dog could run after livestock, or into a road, blow a recall command, or any other multitude of reasons as to why they're not good off lead.

Being sneaky is not a unique trait either. I know I've said it a few times now, but my Ty has pretty much ticked all the Sibe boxes so far. He does the creeping forward when calling him/walking to him to pop him back on lead to and don't even get me started on a phase we went through in his adolescence!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm not sure why so many are arguing the toss on this? 

Yeah, we've established that those breed traits are not necessarily unique to Huskies. Any dog can blow off recall, chase livestock, escape, etc. But I'm guessing it runs a bit deeper for these types of dog? I've never owned one, so I'm not going to argue with highly experienced breeders who've bred them for decades, breed clubs and other breed experts who obviously say what they say for a reason.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

cbcdesign said:


> Really nice and rather rare in my area to see a Malamute off lead today on our walk! Its such an unusual sight but his owner was encouraged by the Breeder to train him from a pup in an enclosed Park to walk to Heel, recall etc and as an Adult he is now able to enjoy his walks without being leashed.


I haven't read the whole thread, but quite honestly the subject of Siberians and malamutes off lead has been done to death, always end up in a bun fight with the same usual non owners of the breed making the same statements and the same set of owners with the addition of newer ones from time to time getting frustrated.

On Malamutes according to the Breed club
Can Malamutes be let off lead? As with anything, there is no hard rule. However, Malamutes have a sense of free will and a high prey drive which can lead them to take off after another dog, small furry, etc. and recall is forgotten. There are some owners who work very hard on obedience and are successful in training their Malamutes to return every time but anyone hoping to own a Malamute with perfect recall must be prepared to put in the work. As a general rule it is accepted that most Malamutes have poor recall and so for their own safety and that of prey and livestock they are kept on a lead at all times.

The Alaskan Malamute Club of the UK

and on Siberian Huskies.
The Minus Points

1.Not a one-man dog- any human will do- this may be seen as a lack of loyalty.
2.He will not guard your home or property.
3.Strong desire to run. If he gets free he will run so far he will be lost, if not hit by a car or train, or shot by a farmer.
4.Cannot be relied on to return to you on command. He will decide whether or not to return for himself, knowing that you cannot catch him.
5.Too independent and strong willed generally to be a candidate for obedience training.
6.Keen and efficient hunter and killer. Cannot be trusted with non-canine pets or livestock of any sort. On occasion been known to accept into the pack a cat that he is brought up with, but all others will be regarded as fair game. Please note  huskies have been known to kill cats, that they have lived happily with for many years, for no obvious reason.
7.Like any dog- needs a lot of exercise to keep him fit and contented, but this must be done ON lead.
8.Can be very destructive, especially when young and/or if left alone for a long time.
9.Needs company, either human or canine, and is miserable without it.
10.Needs a safely enclosed exercise area. Your garden must be fully fenced and secure. Six foot high fencing is USUALLY enough. Check neighbours will not object to high fences. Take care he cannot dig his way out beneath it, and do not leave dustbins etc near the fence or he may use them to get over the top. Keep the garden gate securely locked, otherwise there is a risk that visitors, window cleaners etc may leave them open.
11.Your garden is unlikely to remain neat and tidy with a Sibe rampaging happily within.
12.He needs correct feeding- breeders will be able to tell you which foods suit Sibes and which can cause problems. Generally avoid foods with high levels of cereal, which they find hard to digest.
13.Moults twice a year. The quantity of fur shed can surprise you, especially in spring when the winter coat is replaced by a shorter, thinner summer coat.
You need an understanding and experienced veterinary surgeon. Sibes are sensitive to some drugs, particularly anaesthetics, sedatives and tranquillisers. This is due to their relatively low metabolic rate and lack of body fat. Also the bulk of their fur can lead vets to overestimate their weight and so overdose them. Sibes should always be weighed accurately beforehand to avoid this.

Negative points « Siberian Husky Club of Great Britain

A check of further breed clubs and rescue/welfare organisations will tell you the same.

As an aside yes both my Siberians and Mals have all gone to obedience training, and in fact were high achievers and reliable in class. When outside though they have all been more interested in hunting be it birds, squirrels anything else that moves, add to that the urge to run, I personally like a lot of others don't let mine off unless in a safe enclosed area.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I haven't seen the topic done to death, as haven't been here long enough I guess. 

It's very clear there are two distinct ways of looking at owning a Sibe or Mal, those who defiantly stick to the 'rules' and those who risk it but usually end up with dogs that do well off lead with lots of hard work.

They're clearly not a breed for me, but I see a lot of comparisons between them and sighthounds, despite what has been said here.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

So what do you do if your lead snaps? Or your dogs jumps a fence or gets out a door? 

(And I may have been misreading between the lines, but just because people don't have said breeds, doesn't mean that they can't have an opinion about said breeds. And heck, if they want a bun fight they can have one if they want to. As long as they're not being a pillock about it *Politely throws a croissant*)


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Margelli said:


> So what do you do if your lead snaps? Or your dogs jumps a fence or gets out a door?
> 
> (And I may have been misreading between the lines, but just because people don't have said breeds, doesn't mean that they can't have an opinion about said breeds. And heck, if they want a bun fight they can have one if they want to. As long as they're not being a pillock about it *Politely throws a croissant*)


You pray your recall training works and if it doesn't you run in the opposite direction while desperately screaming your dog's name.

Mine would never get a chance to get out the door , we have three doors between where they spend most their time and outside , each door is shut before the next one opens and same with the fence , they never get the chance to jump it. We go out , toilet and back inside however my wall is 9ft so I'd like to see them try lol


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Margelli said:


> So what do you do if your lead snaps? Or your dogs jumps a fence or gets out a door?
> 
> (And I may have been misreading between the lines, but just because people don't have said breeds, doesn't mean that they can't have an opinion about said breeds. And heck, if they want a bun fight they can have one if they want to. As long as they're not being a pillock about it *Politely throws a croissant*)


Who said people who don't own them can't have an opinion? But I think it is safe to say that people who have owned them for a long time probably have more of an informed opinion about the breed than those who have read about them on an internet forum.

I know very little about Huskies and sled dogs in general, but from what I can gather they are (or were) bred to run in harness and are fairly independent. Combined with a high prey drive, I can easily see why owners would be extremely careful about letting them off the lead. And yep, that is very similar to various types of sighthounds and scenthounds, many individuals of whom also do not get let off the lead unless in a fenced in area.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

But there are individuals within those breeds who CAN be offlead successfully? Surely we can take from those incidents, that it IS possible and can be learnt from and that its not a fluke? Obviously I am still of the view that is down to the individual dog/owners choice, but dog breed traits to me, should be seen as guidelines rather than hard fast rules?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Margelli said:


> So what do you do if your lead snaps? Or your dogs jumps a fence or gets out a door?
> 
> (And I may have been misreading between the lines, but just because people don't have said breeds, doesn't mean that they can't have an opinion about said breeds. And heck, if they want a bun fight they can have one if they want to. As long as they're not being a pillock about it *Politely throws a croissant*)


Well for starters assuming you get them from reputable breeders or places like breed welfares and rescues, you are also told that you need minimum of 6ft fencing preferably with concrete gravel boards buried into the ground as they can also have a tendency to dig their way out too. You would also be instructed not to leave doors open or windows come to that as it is also known for them to jump out of windows. You ensure that they are secured when doors are open, to most sled dog owners it becomes natural and something you automatically do. Most don't use just collars and a lead anyway, not if your sensible you don't, personally mine have made to measure well fitting harnesses with proper brass buckles, eyelets any fitments, and when walking in areas like roads, have a double ended lead with one end clipped to the harness and one the fitted collar for double security. You also make sure that the equipment you buy is up to the job. You do if you have any sense, obedience train them and teach recall, so that in the event of a mishap you have a fighting chance of stopping them from running off.

The reason why there are so many incidently in breed welfares and rehoming centres is that people buy on them on looks, alone from less then reputable breeders, who breed for profit, not caring who they go too, and without instruction or making sure prospective owners have done the breed research and taken it on board. Often too late people realise they are not so easy, have problems and then pass them on time and time again.

If you think I and others who own them and try to make a point and try to educate people and ask them to think before getting one are pillocks by the way, you wont be the first and wont be the last, personally it doesn't bother me in the least couldn't care less as it happens. Like other owners who have had the breeds for years, the health safety and welfare of the breed/s and knowing what they can be capable of is as always paramount.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Margelli said:


> But there are individuals within those breeds who CAN be offlead successfully? Surely we can take from those incidents, that it IS possible and can be learnt from and that its not a fluke? Obviously I am still of the view that is down to the individual dog/owners choice, but dog breed traits to me, should be seen as guidelines rather than hard fast rules?


Yes, that is the point I, and others, were trying to make. I may not own the breed, but I do own another type of breed notoriously thought of as difficult off lead too and can actually relate to a lot of what's being said about Sibe's. That said, I think it's more an owner issue than a breed issue.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Margelli said:


> But there are individuals within those breeds who CAN be offlead successfully? Surely we can take from those incidents, that it IS possible and can be learnt from and that its not a fluke? Obviously I am still of the view that is down to the individual dog/owners choice, but dog breed traits to me, should be seen as guidelines rather than hard fast rules?


Of course. Exactly the same as there are sheepdogs that have no herding instinct, retrievers that have no retrieving instinct, scenthounds that have no drive to follow scents and sighthounds that have no desire to chase....no one can deny that you get plenty of dogs that are very atypical for their breed.

But you don't go buying a breed like a Husky and assume you'll end up with an off lead dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> It's interesting everyone who thinks it's ok to let sibes off lead don't actually own them, just know someone with one.
> 
> There is a good reason that the breed clubs, rescues and good breeders say not to.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about poodles or sibes. Sounds the same to me.



ellenlouisepascoe said:


> You pray your recall training works and if it doesn't you run in the opposite direction while desperately screaming your dog's name.
> 
> Mine would never get a chance to get out the door , we have three doors between where they spend most their time and outside , each door is shut before the next one opens and same with the fence , they never get the chance to jump it. We go out , toilet and back inside however my wall is 9ft so I'd like to see them try lol


I hate to sound picky but what fun would there be in keeping a dog that needs to be kept like that. Surely if that really is necessary they are just not suitable as pets.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Where have I called you a pillock? 

I don't understand why any of those requirements above could not be applied to any other dog breed? (actually alot of sighthound and lurcher rescues have those guidelines and you get successful offlead dogs as well as onlead ones, so still not really seeing the uniqueness behaviour wise?)


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Are you talking about poodles or sibes. Sounds the same to me.
> 
> *I hate to sound picky but what fun would there be in keeping a dog that needs to be kept like that. Surely if that really is necessary they are just not suitable as pets.*


You're braver than me!  I'm sure they do have many good qualities, but it sounds like a very restricting life in some ways owning such a breed, can't keep your windows open, have to shut doors all the time, can't let them off, they'll tear up your garden, scale walls/fences.... They're not exactly painted in the greatest of lights!


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

labradrk said:


> Of course. Exactly the same as there are sheepdogs that have no herding instinct, retrievers that have no retrieving instinct, scenthounds that have no drive to follow scents and sighthounds that have no desire to chase....no one can deny that you get plenty of dogs that are very atypical for their breed.
> 
> *But you don't go buying a breed like a Husky and assume you'll end up with an off lead dog.*


But you could say that exact same thing about ANY dog breed?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Are you talking about poodles or sibes. Sounds the same to me.
> 
> I hate to sound picky but what fun would there be in keeping a dog that needs to be kept like that. Surely if that really is necessary they are just not suitable as pets.


Everyone makes adjustments in their lives for their dogs. 
Like I said before , none breed owners making judgements based on what they think rather than KNOWING the breed properly.

My last reply as obviously breeders , welfare , breed clubs and long time owners of the breed are all wrong and pet forums is right


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Margelli said:


> So what do you do if your lead snaps? Or your dogs jumps a fence or gets out a door?
> 
> (And I may have been misreading between the lines, but just because people don't have said breeds, doesn't mean that they can't have an opinion about said breeds. And heck, if they want a bun fight they can have one if they want to. As long as they're not being a pillock about it *Politely throws a croissant*)





Margelli said:


> Where have I called you a pillock?
> 
> I don't understand why any of those requirements above could not be applied to any other dog breed? (actually alot of sighthound and lurcher rescues have those guidelines and you get successful offlead dogs as well as onlead ones, so still not really seeing the uniqueness behaviour wise?)


As you seemed (1st quote above) to be answering a post of mine, naturally assumed you were reffering to me as one of the pillocks, if you were like I said don't care anyway wouldn't be the first time and likely wont be the last I really don't care.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> You're braver than me!  I'm sure they do have many good qualities, but it sounds like a very restricting life in some ways owning such a breed, can't keep your windows open, have to shut doors all the time, can't let them off, they'll tear up your garden, scale walls/fences.... They're not exactly painted in the greatest of lights!


For the past couple of months I've had my windows only open a bit, all external doors shut at all times, my dog on a lead in the garden at all times and my dog on a lead on walks at all times. I thought I'd find it horrific but it actually hasn't been a problem at all. Not ideal and not something I'd chose, but far from terrible either. Just because a certain lifestyle wouldn't work for one person doesn't mean to say it wouldn't work for another. 



Margelli said:


> But you could say that exact same thing about ANY dog breed?


Sure, but the odds are highly stacked in your favour with many breeds, especially the ones that have been bred to be handler focused and work closely with people.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

labradrk said:


> For the past couple of months I've had my windows only open a bit, all external doors shut at all times, my dog on a lead in the garden at all times and my dog on a lead on walks at all times. I thought I'd find it horrific but it actually hasn't been a problem at all. Not ideal and not something I'd chose, but far from terrible either. Just because a certain lifestyle wouldn't work for one person doesn't mean to say it wouldn't work for another.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but your dog has suffered an injury that required the restricted lifestyle of recent? That's a bit different than buying a puppy/dog knowing that's the life you'll have to lead for 10/15 years. But you're right of course, that what one fins restrictive and/or challenging, another might not. It's why there is a breed out there to suit everyone


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> As you seemed (1st quote above) to be answering a post of mine, naturally assumed you were reffering to me as one of the pillocks, if you were like I said don't care anyway wouldn't be the first time and likely wont be the last I really don't care.


I wrote that those who wanted to start a bun fight could do as long as they were polite and not a pillock? Still unsure how you jumped from that to me calling you one? Seems I'm not the only one misreading.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Does it not seem weird that the people fighting and saying they can go off lead are the ones who don't own or have owned the breed? and yet the ones who have them and have had them for years say not to. 


Just because you can doesn't mean you should. :frown2:


It's like putting a terrier in a room with a loose rodent and not expecting it to kill it. That terrier may not but the other 100 you try will.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

The lady on this website has a fantastic book of the same name as the website.

Website for Jane Killion, author of When Pigs Fly!: Training Success With Impossible Dogs. Dog training for difficult, stubborn, and non-biddable breeds of dog. Dog training, particularly for terriers and hounds. Basic training, training for behavior

Has a great bit about building handler focus among other things, its a book I recommend to virtually every dog owner I know :biggrin:


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but your dog has suffered an injury that required the restricted lifestyle of recent? That's a bit different than buying a puppy/dog knowing that's the life you'll have to lead for 10/15 years. But you're right of course, that what one fins restrictive and/or challenging, another might not. It's why there is a breed out there to suit everyone


That's correct, and obviously it's different, but I was just pointing out that for me it hasn't been anywhere near as bad as I thought. Being more restricted I mean, and this is coming from someone that likes all windows and doors open at all times, my dogs to roam around the house and spend as much time as possible off lead.

Besides, the example I presented was pretty extreme, and I doubt all owners of bog-off dogs are anywhere near that regimented!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

SpringerHusky said:


> Does it not seem weird that the people fighting and saying they can go off lead are the ones who don't own or have owned the breed? and yet the ones who have them and have had them for years say not to.
> 
> Just because you can doesn't mean you should. :frown2:
> 
> It's like putting a terrier in a room with a loose rodent and not expecting it to kill it. That terrier may not but the other 100 you try will.


This talk of 'fighting' is ridiculous. It's just a very civil debate as I see it. To me it's the reasons behind why these experts say they shouldn't be off that has me confused because they're all reasons you could apply to any breed. But as someone who doesn't own the breed I guess I should shut up now. Was just curious that is all.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

SpringerHusky said:


> Does it not seem weird that the people fighting and saying they can go off lead are the ones who don't own or have owned the breed? and yet the ones who have them and have had them for years say not to.
> 
> Just because you can doesn't mean you should. :frown2:
> 
> *It's like putting a terrier in a room with a loose rodent and not expecting it to kill it. That terrier may not but the other 100 you try will.*


Hmm not sure what to call the relevant training. Getting used to training? teaching alternative behaviour while in presence of thing training while using management techniques. I want to call it positive association but I am not sure if that's right? Again to use sighthounds as an example MANy have been homed with fluffies, and have been successfully taught to remain calm around them and to find more appropriate behaviour other than chasing.

EDIT: Just remembered, keeping below threshold is realy important too!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sure you can train that terrier but would you trust it?

I knew someone who had a cat with a pack of sibes, they all grew up together and it was great until one day the cat went to do her normal thing of jumping up to the window except this time she slipped and didn't make the jump. The whole pack went for the cat and even though my friend got to her from the same room, she died seconds after she got them off. She'd never expected her well trained sibes who had slept and eat with this cat to turn around and kill the cat just like someone turned on a switch. 

I would not trust the terrier nor would I trust a sibe off leash.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Does it not seem weird that the people fighting and saying they can go off lead are the ones who don't own or have owned the breed? and yet the ones who have them and have had them for years say not to.
> 
> Just because you can doesn't mean you should. :frown2:
> 
> It's like putting a terrier in a room with a loose rodent and not expecting it to kill it. That terrier may not but the other 100 you try will.


Both examples are a bit daft. Not every terrier will kill a loose rodent, plenty of other breeds will kill a rodent. My JRT would not even look at a rat or mouse, my sheltie that I owned at the same time was an ace ratter. Every dog can be trained not to though.

I have never owned a husky or malamute and they are not a breed I would ever consider, along with many other breeds but I fail to see why they are any more likely to be untrainable than any other independent terrier/hound/northern breed or sadly many individuals among breeds that on paper should be very trainable.

If you have a dog that is not safe off the lead for whatever reason and you are not able to train it then keep it on the lead - whatever its breed.
to have a dog that is going to constantly try and escape from the house and garden sounds like a nightmare - but I am sure there are individuals in any breed who are going to try it on.

One of my poodles is so quick to escape, a blink of the eye and she is gone. Luckily it does not matter if she gets out of the door here but it is still something to keep an eye on. If I tell her to wait she does not shoot out but if she is ignored she is out without anyone noticing. Again, is that any different to a husky or malamute.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Siberian Husky Escape - YouTube

Husky Escape Artist - YouTube

Husky escape artist! - YouTube

Husky escapist - YouTube

If you cant jump it or bust out, then you can always dig.

Siberian Huskies The Great Escape - YouTube

Malamutes can do it too.











Have posted some of these before.


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## Dan1234 (Dec 3, 2012)

Huskies aren't the only breed that can escape.














That took me all of 2 minutes to find on youtube.

I do struggle with this elitism that husky owners seem to have about there dogs. I have a Akita x and also fostered a Mal for a few months so although I have no experience of the special breed that is huskies I do have some northern breed experience. Personally I don't really find them massively different to any other dog breed I have kept or fostered. Their individual personalities seem to shine through slightly more than breed traits imo.

I tend to believe what I see with my own eyes rather than regurgitated statements. I know 5 Huskies in my local area. 2 of which get offlead and 3 of which don't. I've known 4 of them since puppies (1 on lead I've only know since adult). All started off as friendly pups, however now, the 2 which have been kept on lead are all very DA, and look horribly frustrated whenever I see them. The 2 that have been allowed off lead time are perfectly fine socialised dogs. Of course they have there naughty moments (but so does every dog I come across on a regular basis) but other than that I see nothing that suggests these dogs should be kept permanently on lead.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dan1234 said:


> Huskies aren't the only breed that can escape.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well obviously all the breed clubs and welfare/rescues and husky and Mal owners of long standing are all wrong then, if you have fostered one Mal and see 5 huskies out and about then we should throw all we have learned straight out of the window.


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## Dan1234 (Dec 3, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Well obviously all the breed clubs and welfare/rescues and husky and Mal owners of long standing are all wrong then, if you have fostered one Mal and see 5 huskies out and about then we should throw all we have learned straight out of the window.


You can do as you wish. Just giving my opinion. My experiences must just be pure luck then I guess


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Just as an aside..

My friend in Iceland has a pedigree lab, they live in the middle of nowhere

that dog ran across the equivalent of two fjords to go charm a lady dog and after he came home, owner of now pregnant other dog took him to task for her puppies- cue neuter.

Still runs off after reindeer.
Just a wee story


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

So the point is someone does something that someone else disagrees with or its a breed issue, gad people are individuals and so are all animals, personality traits are the fundamental clincher not all owners are savvy or wise but not all are idiots either!!!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dan1234 said:


> You can do as you wish. Just giving my opinion. My experiences must just be pure luck then I guess


I was probably being a bit harsh: honestly though it all just gets a bit wearing at times, that no matter what examples or information all the breed, clubs, breed welfares and rescues, good breeders and owners give, your basically told you don't know what your talking about.

Its akin to myself telling a champion gun dog trainer or a schutzhund trainer
that they are pants and doing it all wrong. I haven't trained either, and would certainly have enough respect to acknowledge their knowledge and achievements.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I was probably being a bit harsh: honestly though it all just gets a bit wearing at times, that no matter what examples or information all the breed, clubs, breed welfares and rescues, good breeders and owners give, your basically told you don't know what your talking about.
> 
> Its akin to myself telling a champion gun dog trainer or a schutzhund trainer
> that they are pants and doing it all wrong. I haven't trained either, and would certainly have enough respect to acknowledge their knowledge and achievements.


Lol! As if you know your own crazy suggestion!


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2014)

SpringerHusky said:


> It's interesting everyone who thinks it's ok to let sibes off lead don't actually own them, just know someone with one.


I owned a sibeX for his entire life of 14 years. I co-owned a malamute for 2 years, lived with him longer. Lived with roommates sibes and other northern breeds for 5 years in CO. Do I get to have an opinion? 



SpringerHusky said:


> There is a good reason that the breed clubs, rescues and good breeders say not to.


Plenty of breed clubs, rescues and breeders also still tell you to dominate your Malamute and that biting a dogs ear is a valid way to discipline him  Just because an expert says it, doesnt make it gospel truth - doesnt mean ignore it either. Its definitely something I consider, I just dont take it as an absolute.



SpringerHusky said:


> It's nothing to do with lack of obedience, an obedience champion ran off and got hit by a car.


Could happen to any breed.



SpringerHusky said:


> Sibes are sneaky about it as well, dear me Roxie is a bugger for it sometimes in the enclosed dog parks. She'll just lag behind sniffing something then she'll turn around and walk another direction, she'll ignore you if she's persistent enough and if you go after her she'll increase her pace. It's a rare thing but I, myself and my husband have gone running after her and she's not exactly in fit condition (she's lost a lot of weight though), I dread to think of one that is.
> 
> They are escape artists, they are runners, they are thinkers and they have a high prey drive. Combine all those into one dog and it's a problem.


Tons of other breeds are escape artists (ever met a Rhodesian?), plenty of breeds are runners (hello sighthounds, Im looking at you), lots of breeds are thinkers (coonhounds, SO smart!) and prey drive? Uh... a bazillion breeds have massive prey drive nothing like a sibes.

And while were at it, lets talk sibe prey drive. A dog bred to pull a sled thought the wilderness. Not very useful if that dog is going to dart off the trail after a rabbit at ever turn is it? 
Oh, theyre focused when pulling you say? So... if you give the dog a job, something to focus on, they dont run off after prey? Hrm.... training to the dogs traits comes to mind....



SpringerHusky said:


> The people who allow them to be off lead out of a fenced and secured place are just playing with fire, you may not get burned but there's a very high chance you will.


You know what these conversations remind me of? The kids and dogs thing. You know, the absolute, never, ever, under any circumstances, ever leave your dog and kid alone together.

Its the absolute part I have an issue with, not the general advice.

In general, yes, supervise your kids and dogs.
In general, yes, keep your sibe on a leash or long line.

In specific instances though its much more complex. Its evaluating the *individual* dog, the environment, the situation, the context....

For example: Bates is pretty much rock solid off lead. However, I know that when we start having cooler days in the fall and warmer days in the spring, he gets silly and more likely to forget cues including a recall. 
I know that when hes with his friend the whippet hes mellow, but with his friend the sighthound he gets stupid. And he and Lunar were real boogers for making plans together that didnt include me. I also know that hes better about checking in when were in an unknown area than in an area he knows well.

Taking all of this in to account, a cool fall day with his sighthound friend in familiar territory is not the time to test his recall. A hot summer day by himself in a new location is. IOW, know your dog.

In the same way, Im one of those horribly irresponsible parents whos dogs do hang out with our kids unsupervised. The dogs sleep in the kids beds all night unsupervised. 
But if one of the dogs is acting off, doesnt feel well, has an injury, or if the kid in question is having a friend sleepover, then no, the dog doesnt sleep with them and hangs out with us in our room.

Guidelines, not absolutes.

You take what you know about your dog, weight the risks/rewards, and act intelligently. And just because my intelligent decision differs from someone elses intelligent decision doesnt make me wrong or them right or vice versa. Nor any of the other nonsense about who loves their dog more, who knows the breed better, etc., etc.
It just means were different. And thats OKAY!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> You're braver than me!  I'm sure they do have many good qualities, but it sounds like a very restricting life in some ways owning such a breed, can't keep your windows open, have to shut doors all the time, can't let them off, they'll tear up your garden, scale walls/fences.... They're not exactly painted in the greatest of lights!


This describes Rupert perfectly. I worried any time I had a window open, put training in place so that he didn't go through the front or back door or the gates without permission and all sorts. He dug up my garden, renovated my house, easily scaled a 7ft fence resulting in him being on leash even in the garden, killed any chance he got and ended up having a VERY restricted life (imo) because of it.

I wouldn't own a husky because of all these things people say. Been there with a non husky and will do my best not to have that sort of dog again. But the huskies I know vary massively. There was Demon who I think had every "bad" trait going, loved that dog but god he made me 100% sure I don't want a husky myself lol. And then there are those who are off leash, lazy, non destructive and biddable. And all the ones in between.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> Lol! As if you know your own crazy suggestion!


This means what exactly, if you have something to say then say it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I was probably being a bit harsh: honestly though it all just gets a bit wearing at times, that no matter what examples or information all the breed, clubs, breed welfares and rescues, good breeders and owners give, your basically told you don't know what your talking about.
> 
> Its akin to myself telling a champion gun dog trainer or a schutzhund trainer
> that they are pants and doing it all wrong. I haven't trained either, and would certainly have enough respect to acknowledge their knowledge and achievements.


But that advice is what you could say about all dogs! Please explain to me how a Husky running off differs from any other dog? If it's just that it can run fast for long distances and becomes deaf than that's not a unique trait. Therefore I fail to see how they are any more immune to training than your next dog. I'm not denying what you or any of the experts are saying, but I just don't understand the reasons behind this belief.


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## Dan1234 (Dec 3, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I was probably being a bit harsh: honestly though it all just gets a bit wearing at times, that no matter what examples or information all the breed, clubs, breed welfares and rescues, good breeders and owners give, your basically told you don't know what your talking about.
> 
> Its akin to myself telling a champion gun dog trainer or a schutzhund trainer
> that they are pants and doing it all wrong. I haven't trained either, and would certainly have enough respect to acknowledge their knowledge and achievements.


I've not said your doing it all wrong, or that you don't know what your talking about, just that my experiences in real life have been quite different from what you and other pro on-lead people are saying.

Look at it from my viewpoint for a moment. Would you blindly follow what someone you don't know on the internet is telling you? or go with what you have seen over numerous examples in the flesh. I am aware 5 Huskies isn't a whole lot, I'll also point to 4 Akita's (3 off lead/ 1 on), and 2 Samoyeds (1 on-lead/ 1 off) that I have known from being puppies and every single one of these that have been kept on lead have issues with either aggression or ott excitement.

There is surely something to it? whether its lack of exercise or lack of socialising, either way it doesn't seem to make for a very happy dog.


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## MountianRott (Jul 8, 2014)

I had a Malamute mix and I could train her to be by my side off lead. But she was never perfect on it. She had an extreme prey drive,where anything(non human) could be fair game and was more stubborn with recalls than other dogs I had.
I would consider her on the same level as any sight hound,hound or Husky and Malamutes can be pains in the butt the same way. They less care about what you say as long as it pleases them and less naturally submissive to their owner even compared to dogs like GSD's,Dobes and Rottweilers. Thus for say my Rottie or Newfie if they ran off it was easier to make them halt and head my voice in comparison,dogs like Malamutes and Huskies less care if your upset or happy with them and love to mess with you that way. I also noticed other dogs are likely to run off more for a reason,while dogs like malamutes/huskies always have it in their head and wait for the opportunity.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

MountianRott said:


> I had a Malamute mix and I could train her to be by my side off lead. But she was never perfect on it. She had an extreme prey drive,where anything(non human) could be fair game and was more stubborn with recalls than other dogs I had.
> I would consider her on the same level as any sight hound,hound or Husky and Malamutes can be pains in the butt the same way. They less care about what you say as long as it pleases them and less naturally submissive to their owner even compared to dogs like GSD's,Dobes and Rottweilers. Thus for say my Rottie or Newfie if they ran off it was easier to make them halt and head my voice in comparison,dogs like Malamutes and Huskies less care if your upset or happy with them and love to mess with you that way. I also noticed other dogs are likely to run off more for a reason,while dogs like malamutes/huskies always have it in their head and wait for the opportunity.


See that was a good explanation, made clearer than simply they 'run away'. Again, I can relate to some of what you say with my Ty. He has Saluki in him that I've often heard are not reliable off lead either, so that probably explains why!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dan1234 said:


> I've not said your doing it all wrong, or that you don't know what your talking about, just that my experiences in real life have been quite different from what you and other pro on-lead people are saying.
> 
> Look at it from my viewpoint for a moment. Would you blindly follow what someone you don't know on the internet is telling you? or go with what you have seen over numerous examples in the flesh. I am aware 5 Huskies isn't a whole lot, I'll also point to 4 Akita's (3 off lead/ 1 on), and 2 Samoyeds (1 on-lead/ 1 off) that I have known from being puppies and every single one of these that have been kept on lead have issues with either aggression or ott excitement.
> 
> There is surely something to it? whether its lack of exercise or lack ofsocialising, either way it doesn't seem to make for a very happy dog.


The main problem is that because of their High prey drive and instinct to run generally they cant be trusted off lead. Even ones that have been trained to higher obedience, which is most often exceptions rather then the rule, however seemingly good they have been have reverted to type. Believe me for many owners including myself it has nothing to do with not bothering to train them, mine all went to training and in class could be about as perfect as you could ask for. I could even put them in a down stay leave them in a roomful of dogs doing the same exercise and return, rarely they missed a recall there either.
Outside though I still wouldn't trust them once they start to run, or see even a bird, everything else just goes out of their heads, same if they get loose and start to run. Mine like others do go off but its always in fulyl enclosed areas.
I can honestly say that in over 20 years I haven't had any problems with lack of socialisation and aggression. Even though most of mine have been rescues that I have taken on. They have always been kept with other canines, another important aspect for a sibe, always mixed with others and have long on lead walks, exercise on long lines, and runs off lead in fully enclosed safe areas.

Often when they are young up to early adulthood and puberty they will be more dependant and stay with you, which makes many people think they have an exception. Once hormones and instinct kick in, however it can be a totally different story. I have helped in breed rescue and have friends and associates in the breed who have owned them from when they virtually arrived in the UK.
Over the years there have been ones that have been off lead, thought to be fine and then reverted, been injured or killed or have killed something. There have been ones brought up with cats, seemingly OK then turned and killed the cat. Ones that have seemed OK never escaped then run off. You could probably argue that this could be said for any breed or some other breeds of dogs. With the Siberian prey drive and instinct to run can far outweigh anything you can likely teach them however good they may seem, because of this ,
owners tend to have found, that the likely hood or chance of a Siberian doing it is highly likely and often more probable then possible. That's why even ones that work be it in the UK, or in their native homeland are tethered or staked out.

Do you not think after all this time if they could be 100% reliably trained to recall and never falter or run off that the advice of all the breed clubs, breeders and owners would have changed by now and the advice would be far different? I can assure you that its not for the lack of trying.

Any dog whatever the breed unless you can if not 100% at least very close to it be relied on to recall shouldn't be let off anyway in my personal opinion, the reason that the general consensus of opinion that huskies shouldn't be let off unless in a safe area, is because of this, the vast majority cant be trusted, and even the ones that have seemed too in the past have reverted to type a lot of the time.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> But that advice is what you could say about all dogs! Please explain to me how a Husky running off differs from any other dog? If it's just that it can run fast for long distances and becomes deaf than that's not a unique trait. Therefore I fail to see how they are any more immune to training than your next dog. I'm not denying what you or any of the experts are saying, but I just don't understand the reasons behind this belief.


Sorry missed your post, but I replied to Dan 1234 trying to explain the same thing above.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I wouldn't bother tbh June, we know what we know and I prefer to keep it that way. That's why I stick with the groups who know about the breed and who actually own a few. 
Can't be doing with twaddle, lol.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I wouldn't bother tbh June, we know what we know and I prefer to keep it that way. That's why I stick with the groups who know about the breed and who actually own a few.
> Can't be doing with twaddle, lol.


To be honest I decided I couldn't be a***d with the usual way it will likely end up and wasnt going to bother, however, as you know as well as I do the crisis situation for both Siberians and Malamutes as far as unwanted and in need of rehoming goes. Usually because they are bought with little or no research into the breeds and what they are like, then outed when people cant cope when they find out too late what they are like to own. So I figure if it gets through to just one or two who might have been thinking of getting one then it might not totally be in vain after all. Better they get the correct prospective and it makes them think, then have wrong misleading information and yet another ends up in welfare or the local rehoming centre or on bloody gumtree and keeps going.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> But that advice is what you could say about all dogs! Please explain to me how a Husky running off differs from any other dog? If it's just that it can run fast for long distances and becomes deaf than that's not a unique trait. Therefore I fail to see how they are any more immune to training than your next dog. I'm not denying what you or any of the experts are saying, but I just don't understand the reasons behind this belief.





Dan1234 said:


> I've not said your doing it all wrong, or that you don't know what your talking about, just that my experiences in real life have been quite different from what you and other pro on-lead people are saying.
> 
> Look at it from my viewpoint for a moment. Would you blindly follow what someone you don't know on the internet is telling you? or go with what you have seen over numerous examples in the flesh. I am aware 5 Huskies isn't a whole lot, I'll also point to 4 Akita's (3 off lead/ 1 on), and 2 Samoyeds (1 on-lead/ 1 off) that I have known from being puppies and every single one of these that have been kept on lead have issues with either aggression or ott excitement.
> 
> There is surely something to it? whether its lack of exercise or lack of socialising, either way it doesn't seem to make for a very happy dog.


I wasn't going to comment on this thread but I cant sit on my hands any longer lol

I have had Siberian huskies for over 14 years, we use to have six, sadly we're now down to four. I have also had gundogs, terriers and a mongrel so I say from experience that huskies are quite a different to any breed I have owned before.

I have also been in the breed long enough to know about MANY cases of off lead huskies being lost, killed/injured on the road, shot by farmers. I have lost count of the number of cats and other non canine animals that I know about killed/worried by huskies. My own have managed to kill numerous creatures, grab hold of and shake a cat all while either ON lead or in harness or in an enclosure. Siberian huskies are a primitive breed, and each Arctic summer the Chukchi people would set their dogs free to fend for themselves, they HAD to hunt to survive - most Sibes today have lost non of that innate predatory instinct.

They are not a subservient breed, they are very independent free thinkers and very intelligent to go with it. They know when a command can or cannot be enforced - you simply cant trust them off lead.

Even obedience trained huskies cannot be trusted. I know Raindog on here bred a Sibe that went on to excel at obedience, she was tragically hit by a car. I have posted this message from Lois Leonard, owner of the famous Sula, on here many times before ... here we go again....

_ Sula was one of only 2 huskies ever to achieve the U.S title OTCH (Obedience Trials Champion), a feat that has not been achieved by another Siberian to this day. Sula retired in 1988 with two all-breed High In Trials, two Siberian Husky Club of America National Specialty High In Trials, and 18 area Specialty High In Trials, and was for nine years the top-scoring Siberian Husky in the United States.

When Sula was 15 yrs old she darted across a road after a dog, though Sula wasnt struck by a car, she could have been. As Sula's owner Lois Leonard said - "you will never be able to trust a Siberian, "any" Siberian!! off lead in an unfenced area...NEVER. Its as simple as that._

Yet since I have been in the breed I have been horrified to see more & more irresponsible owners letting them off lead - and people with no experience of the breed advocating they are no different to other breeds off lead. :/

My huskies have great recall - until they see something interesting!. And like other responsible owners I put the extra effort in to ensure they are happy and well exercised without taking any chances with their precious lives.

These were taken a couple of yrs ago.

[youtube_browser]/dGHVQ7OrwdM[/youtube_browser]

[youtube_browser]/aeP84Zflsfk[/youtube_browser]


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Videos are coming up as private


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cava14 una said:


> Videos are coming up as private


Oops trust me lol I've changed the settings to public now.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> I wasn't going to comment on this thread but I cant sit on my hands any longer lol
> 
> I have had Siberian huskies for over 14 years, we use to have six, sadly we're now down to four. I have also had gundogs, terriers and a mongrel so I say from experience that huskies are quite a different to any breed I have owned before.
> 
> ...


Lovely videos! Just look at their faces 

Like Noushka said , when you share your life with a Siberian Husky you put in the extra effort to make sure they are exercised and happy as well as being safe. We do train them to recall and it is on going life long training, I have never for a minute thought " Well he won't recall so I won't try to train him" Blade attended obedience classes for the first year of his life, and we will from time to time still drop in with the three of them to do some "refresher" training

[youtube_browser]i6qvFVUbja8[/youtube_browser]

We harness their desire to run and take up scootering, bikejoring or running. Our entire lifestyle changes in order to care for our dogs and provide the very best for them and then for someone to come along and say " You are all wrong!" when they don't even know the breed is infuriating to say the least 

We love our dogs, we love the breed and we want people considering the breed to know the cold hard facts rather than the opinion of people who know dogs, but don't know Sibes. :thumbup:


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Haven't read all the replies, and don't really know enough about Northern breeds to say just how different they are compared to other breeds. I've usually just believed the breed traits and, as someone who accepts that they just don't have the set up to accommodate a husky or mal, I haven't really looked that far into it.

I've seen loads of sighthounds - including greys - offlead on local fields. Seen the odd husky, too, but seeing as Max doesn't like him and his owner makes no attempt to recall him, I don't hold the owner in a very high regard. He's about middle aged and considerably overweight, so even if any of us could catch our dogs in the event to run off, I doubt he'd get anywhere near his dog.

I do understand how a determined, intelligent dog, bred for marathon running (as opposed to the sprint of a sighthound) could be deemed as a potential problem in the event it was offlead and decide to do one, or got out of the garden/front door, but is that really.limited to huskies and their kin?



ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Malamutes are known for being better off the lead than other northern breeds however people still choose not to let them off.
> 
> As a husky owner, I cannot condone or recommend off the lead. They are fantastic and pretending they are listening to you and pretending you are the most interesting person in the world only to see something more interesting 1/2/3 miles away and decide they are off.
> 
> I find it interesting that most people who claim you can train a solid recall into a Sibe, doesn't own a sibe. Blade perfectly recalls in obedience class and when we are in an enclosed paddock but I would not trust him for a second out in the open. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion, I love my dogs too much to risk losing them in a split second of madness.


So are you saying that anyone with a sighthound or husky, or Mal ... Or any one of any number of breeds, who puts in the effort to recall train and takes the risk of letting them offlead - don't love their dogs, or don't love their dogs as much as you love yours? Is that a fair comparison for you to make? :huh:

We all take risks with our own dogs. Most weigh up the risk/reward before they take that risk. Some decide the risk is to great, others (those who have nothing more than an echo between their ears), know the risks, don't have strategies in place in case of the risk, and pay the price if things go wrong. You will take risks with your dogs that other wouldn't dare. How would you like it if they decided to say they'd never take that risk because they love their dogs too much?

You also, in other posts (which I thought I'd quoted, but apparently not) say that all husky owners and others with Northern Breeds want to protect their breed. Don't you think that is a sweeping generalisation? Or insinuates thay others involved in other breeds.don't want to protect them?

You mention huskies etc being mown down or shot by farmers ... Of course, because all.other dogs are impervious to bullets and/or 2 tonnes of metal and fuel. 

I'm not saying you should let your dogs off their leads - that's your business - nor am I saying that huskies are as safe offlead as other breeds, but sweeping generalisations or insinuating that people whose dogs are similarly disposed to running off, have similar intelligence and iron will as a husky, don't love their dogs as much as you love yours, 1) is the height of arrogance, 2) don't exactly add credence to your arguments and 3) could get a lot of people's backs up.

And yes, I do know that people such as SDH have contributed to this thread, saying very much the same thing as you, but without the apparent arrogance and holier than thou undertone to their posts.

I don't mean to slate you, Ellen, or appear as though I'm singling you out, so I apologise if my post comes across that way. Nor am I angry, or upset, or insulted by any of the comments you have made which I have read - I am, in fact, as calm as I can be while feeling like my heart is racing (see my own thread about emergency boarding), so I can only apologise if this post comes across as insulting in any way.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

With all the emphasis on the unless you have sibe experience you dont know what youre talking about can I point out the other side of that coin?

If most of your experience is with sled dogs, then how can you say how unique they are? Without having experienced other breeds with very similar traits, of course northern breeds seem unique. But tons of breeds have similar traits...

I have a friend who has 2 malinois an ACD and 3 shibas (yes, she is addled in the brain). Tell her about this insane sibe prey drive and Ill be there to pick her up off the floor laughing. 

All breeds are unique in their own way. Sibes are super special, not denying that, but theyre not so unique and special that no one but those intimately involved in them for decades could possibly understand them and their needs. Give folks a little credit....


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> To be honest I decided I couldn't be a***d with the usual way it will likely end up and wasnt going to bother, however, as you know as well as I do the crisis situation for both Siberians and Malamutes as far as unwanted and in need of rehoming goes. Usually because they are bought with little or no research into the breeds and what they are like, then outed when people cant cope when they find out too late what they are like to own. So I figure if it gets through to just one or two who might have been thinking of getting one then it might not totally be in vain after all. Better they get the correct prospective and it makes them think, then have wrong misleading information and yet another ends up in welfare or the local rehoming centre or on bloody gumtree and keeps going.


Can I ask you a question. If they are such a primitive breed and such an absolute nightmare to own why are they available to the general public. It seems ridiculous that anyone would want to own or breed such a wild animal unless they were specialists and wanted to harness (excuse the pun) their unique qualities.

On the other hand are they perfectly good pets and it is just the specialist owners that carry on treating them like wild animals. After all no one on here would dispute the fact that staffies are lovely pets and very trainable yet how many end up in rescue or inflicting damage on either dogs or humans.

I dont think quoting breed societies is too good either - after all every breed society pushes for their breed to have unique qualities. Not just dogs but sheep, cattle, horses. If you read the breed society descriptions for loads of breeds you would either run a mile unless you wanted something specialist or leap in with both feet because it is the only breed that has those unique qualities (until you find the identical description on the next similar breed)


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

Also to add...
The vast majority of dogs of all breeds and mixes that I see off lead have no business being off lead. 

Personally I would prefer most owners of all breeds keep their dogs leashed, but its not because of the dog....


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This means what exactly, if you have something to say then say it.


It means exactly what it says you know your own situation better than any one else, thus who better to comment, not every comment is a dig and you should be well aware I do speak my mind!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Can I ask you a question.* If they are such a primitive breed and such an absolute nightmare to own why are they available to the general public.* It seems ridiculous that anyone would want to own or breed such a wild animal unless they were specialists and wanted to harness (excuse the pun) their unique qualities.
> 
> On the other hand are they perfectly good pets and it is just the specialist owners that carry on treating them like wild animals. After all no one on here would dispute the fact that staffies are lovely pets and very trainable yet how many end up in rescue or inflicting damage on either dogs or humans.
> 
> I dont think quoting breed societies is too good either - after all every breed society pushes for their breed to have unique qualities. Not just dogs but sheep, cattle, horses. If you read the breed society descriptions for loads of breeds you would either run a mile unless you wanted something specialist or leap in with both feet because it is the only breed that has those unique qualities (until you find the identical description on the next similar breed)


When they first come into the UK and in the earlier years they were not generally or readily available partly for obvious reasons. Even when I got my first one over 20 years go now, if you contacted the breeders back then, you were informed what they were like straight away and told and this is a quote from one of the kennels approached, you don't come up and say I want x, y, z one we will tell you if you can have one of our dogs, and that is virtually what most of the good early breeders would have told you, and in fact still will.

The Siberian Husky club welfare had the same ethos, and still do, as will all good decent Malamute breeders and their rescues. if not suitable and you cant commit and also don't have the set up fencing/security wise, or are willing to change your fencing and security to one that is suitable then you don't get one from them simple as that.

Roll forward to more current times, like other breeds for one reason or another often things like films and the media, people notice them, like the looks, or the wolf like appearance because of things like games of thrones etc and they decide they want one. Like other breeds, when there is a market for something (anything for that matter) you will get a supply and demand situation. Whats in demand and wanted creates a market and the unscrupulous breeders have a chance to cash in. These don't care if the buyer has done any research, wont bother to have adequate fencing and security or will keep them responsibly. They will sell them to anyone who coughs up the cash. Likewise people buy them on looks alone and purely want one because they look wicked and they have seen them in their favourite TV programmes.
They wont bother to research or check they can keep them properly and give them what they need.

What happens then of course, is that they end up leaving them alone for long periods, without human or canine company. They become bored and lonely their houses get wrecked, they cant be bothered to exercise them for long enough so they become a handful, or they jump fences and dig out, or get out of the house. So they become a nuisance and unwanted. The lucky ones end up in breed welfares, others end up on the free ads with yet other clueless idiot buying them and the present owners happy to sell them to anyone to re-coup their money and get rid, and on they go time and time again.
Its not unusual for ones to have 2/3 or 4 homes before they are a year old, anyone in rescue will tell you that. If you don't believe me, go on a few free ad sites and put in Siberian husky of Alaskan Malamute or have a look at rehoming centres almost every one has got some.

I have had people in the street regularly come up to me, and actually ask if I want one, or know anyone. As an example one was a known escape artist that ended up in Battersea as a stray on several occasions, He has also been taken home on numerous occasions by caring members of the public, the owner cant cope. Another guy pulled up in the middle of the road and asked the same thing a "mate" had bred his dog and bitch couldn't sell them all, and they were now 11/12 weeks and causing havoc, only 2 examples but 2 of many and not unusual.

Add to this as puppies, they can be dependant like other dogs and don't run off
so can be easier, come round 9 months when the prey instinct comes in and they start to get really a problem, then that's when they are moved on as they get harder and not easier and are late maturing anyway. Malamutes are the same, many breeders will tell you end of the first year up to at least 3 years when they at least start to get easier is when most people cant cope with them. Probably the most common age to be outed with both is 9months to around 2 or so, with sibes its 9/18 months owners have had enough, that's if they last that long.

With the Mals in particular although obviously for both, early socialisation and training is really important, With a Mal especially ignore socialisation and training at your peril.

OK you can say that some of these things are basic and can apply to other dogs.

On the subject of having other breeds, admittedly Ive only owned sled dog breeds, but I grew up with, Yorkshire terriers, and Dobermanns, my dad had several my sister still has one now. So I have lived with and know other breeds. I had a Samoyed too and I can tell you they are a flaming sight easier then sibes and Mals, although a fair few of those end up in rescue too. Noush whos had sibes for 14 years has already told you that she has owned other breeds and found them a lot different too.

They are a primitive breed, have exceptional prey and running drives, which is to the level it can exclude all else however well trained they may be. Given the right owners and what they need, they can also be fantastic dogs to own.
You may get ones here and they are that bit easier then others, but these are more exceptions then the rule.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

I've known a lot of sibes over the years, and their prey drive is not "exceptional" LOL. Not even close. 
Anyone who thinks the sibe/husky/malamute version of prey drive is anything out of the ordinary must not have a lot of experience with prey drive.
Sorry to be blunt, but come on... My great dane has more prey drive than most sibes I've met and lived with.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

One thing I have never understood is if these dogs prey drive is so fierce, they simply can not help themselves, its genetic, you cant fight it or change it. Then what happens when a sled dog is in harness- be that a sled, bike, scooter etc and they see some smaller animal run in the opposite way to the way they should be going? You dont see/ hear stories of millions of prey driven accidents at bijorking or canicross events do you? or do you? Never been to one myself

Surely if their prey drive is that enormous they would constantly be on the look out for their next "kill".


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

kare said:


> I know I would not let a husky off lead but malamutes, nope, not an issue.
> 
> Personally wouldn't let beagles off, never recall!


No, and that is probably wise if your skill level is poor.

There are lots of beagles who compete/have competed in many disciplines such as HWTM, Obedience, Working Trials and Obedience.

All of these activities require them to be off the lead.

One of them was in the last UK Superdog competition when I was competing 

Oh and packs of beagles are/were regularly run off lead whilst hunting and recall, you can often see them off the lead at game fairs etc.

But if you do not feel competent with this breed it is a good idea you do not have them.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> One thing I have never understood is if these dogs prey drive is so fierce, they simply can not help themselves, its genetic, you cant fight it or change it. Then what happens when a sled dog is in harness- be that a sled, bike, scooter etc and they see some smaller animal run in the opposite way to the way they should be going? You dont see/ hear stories of millions of prey driven accidents at bijorking or canicross events do you? or do you? Never been to one myself
> 
> Surely if their prey drive is that enormous they would constantly be on the look out for their next "kill".


As I have said in my previous post they are smart enough to know when a command can or cannot be enforced. That said many will take advantage of an opportunity to kill if an animal gets too close. Mine have actually caught a squirrel, a rat, & a partridge when running in harness.

I really shouldnt be on here so will have to come back later !

.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Malamutes are known for being better off the lead than other northern breeds however people still choose not to let them off.
> 
> As a husky owner, I cannot condone or recommend off the lead. They are fantastic and pretending they are listening to you and pretending you are the most interesting person in the world *only to see something more interesting 1/2/3 miles away *and decide they are off.
> 
> I find it interesting that most people who claim you can train a solid recall into a Sibe, doesn't own a sibe. Blade perfectly recalls in obedience class and when we are in an enclosed paddock but I would not trust him for a second out in the open. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion, I love my dogs too much to risk losing them in a split second of madness.


Bloody hell, in addition to their total inability to recall, peculiar to the breed, they also have incredible eyesight.

Wow! This is the first time I have seen anyone state that any breed of dog can SEE anything 1 - 3 miles away.

Awesome.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> LOL I was wondering when the bolded would show up  Because those who have a sibe with a reliable recall and allow said dog off leash when safe to do so, (i.e.: not in the middle of a sheep pasture or along side a busy road), clearly dont love their dog as much as a real sibe owner who really knows the breed.
> 
> So I in turn find it interesting that any time someone does have a sibe with a safe recall they are dismissed as a fluke or told they dont really know the breed. And of course dont love their dog as much as those who keep them leashed.
> 
> ...


See all the time I was in Saudi Arabia, I never say any of the hunting salukis on a lead and yet they always came back.

Obviously the Saudis have special dog training abilities beyond us mere British...........................


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> When you hear the amount of horror stories about people who fall into the trap of thinking their dog is fine offlead only for it to do the complete opposite , this is where you get this point of view from. It takes literally a split second for them to change their mind and they will and can run for miles & miles without stopping. They do not fear roads or cars and I very much doubt there is anywhere in the UK 10's or 100's of miles away from a road or a car. One local to me slipped it's lead and was found 40 miles away from home, having actually wandered onto a train for part of it's journey and was spotted on CCTV departing said train at its destination.
> 
> I have no doubt Blade would mostly be fine off lead and I am often told by lots of people I should let him off and trust him but I just can't and won't. I will religiously train and practice recall with my dogs in a safe environment and will continue to go out of my way to find safe offlead environments for him and the rest of them. :thumbsup:


I find it bizarre that anyone would want to own a dog that wants to leave its owner and home and escape at every opportunity.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dobermutt said:


> Somebody at our regular walking place has a Malamute/Husky cross, who is more often than not, off leash. This is a very large field, but one side isn't enclosed at all and certainly wouldn't be safe for a dog who was likely to make a run for it! On many occasions I've seen this dog running about, completely out of control. *The field backs onto a train track, and every time a train goes by, this dog is always hurtling toward it, trying to catch it. *Thankfully there are massive fences. Not too long ago, this dog ran past us and right up to some young children at full speed. Children were terrified, and the little girl was running away and this only caused the dog to get more worked up to the point where he was jumping up at this tiny girl, whom he towered over!  She was terrified and it took the owner about 5 minutes to actually regain complete control of his dog. Really, his dog is never reliable off leash, I've witnessed him jump feet into the air to get to peoples faces, grab balls from owners, pester other dogs and most of the time, this is after he's run the entire distance (full pelt) from one end of the field to the other just to do this!
> 
> On the other hand, there's another Malamute that's walked at this field and she is always focused on her owner - the only time she seems to run off, is when there's another dog, but even this is rare.
> 
> From what I've seen, though, I definitely think it's so much safer for everyone, dog included, to keep him/her on the lead


You will find a lot of collies and other herding breeds behave like this (and not a trace of husky in them)


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> As I have said in my previous post *they are smart enough to know when a command can or cannot be enforced. * That said many will take advantage of an opportunity to kill if an animal gets too close. Mine have actually caught a squirrel, a rat, & a partridge when running in harness.
> 
> I really shouldnt be on here so will have to come back later !
> 
> .


Do you know how many breeds the bolded applies to? Um... let me think... ALL of them!!! I've yet to meet a dog who could not eventually figure out if a cue was worth complying with and if the consequence was worth it.

There is a whole school of training that is focused around overcoming that "make me" attitude so common to so many dogs. You might be interested in reading some of Jane Killion's stuff like her book "When Pigs Fly" - all about dealing with dogs who are "too smart" for their own good.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Do you know how many breeds the bolded applies to? Um... let me think... ALL of them!!! I've yet to meet a dog who could not eventually figure out if a cue was worth complying with and if the consequence was worth it.
> 
> There is a whole school of training that is focused around overcoming that "make me" attitude so common to so many dogs. You might be interested in reading some of Jane Killion's stuff like her book "When Pigs Fly" - all about dealing with dogs who are "too smart" for their own good.


I was just about to say My dog- staff x hippo mongrelness sure as hell knows if something is enforceable or not..... he knows if its worth leaving that interesting sniff, burying stuff, etc or not.... "when pigs fly" interesting book..... still waiting for Dex to look at the box LOL :yesnod:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> It's interesting everyone who thinks it's ok to let sibes off lead don't actually own them, just know someone with one.
> 
> There is a good reason that the breed clubs, rescues and good breeders say not to.
> 
> ...


Nothing in life is risk free, some humans are serial killers, does not mean I have to be afraid of them all...............


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Margelli said:


> So what do you do if your lead snaps? Or your dogs jumps a fence or gets out a door?
> 
> (And I may have been misreading between the lines, but just because people don't have said breeds, doesn't mean that they can't have an opinion about said breeds. And heck, if they want a bun fight they can have one if they want to. As long as they're not being a pillock about it *Politely throws a croissant*)


But just as the breed is unique so is their equipment and environment.

Owners of this breed have kevlar leads and collars with a tensile strength equal to holding steam locomotives.

Their fences are buried six feet underground, 30 foot overground and have a barbed wire overhang and of course doors are fitted with airlocks to prevent escape.

Plus of course their owners are olympic athletes running hundreds of miles per week to keep their stock in optimum condition


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

When we were looking at different breeds (a good few years ago) one of the breeds we looked at were huskies. I've still to this day never met owners of a breed who wanted to put prospective owners off of that breed so much than those with huskies. It worked - I think me and the OH are put off huskies for life lol


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I cannot see the attraction of a breed that moults like a flock of sheep. This alone would put me off, in fact most of the traits they have I find totally undesirable except perhaps if had to cross the snow covered tundra in a hurry and I had no other means of transport.

I will stick to my pedestrian German Shephered and Malinois, they of course have no prey drive, cannot jump or dig, and are very slow.

Easy peasy................


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> As I have said in my previous post *they are smart enough to know when a command can or cannot be enforced*.


Since when do we "Enforce" a command? Positive reinforcement is the widely accepted method of training today, not forcing the animal to our will, but encouraging them to it by rewarding behaviour we prefer. The term "cannot be enforced" implies negative training methods enlightened Dog owners have long since abandoned.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> As I have said in my previous post they are smart enough to know when a command can or cannot be enforced. That said many will take advantage of an opportunity to kill if an animal gets too close. Mine have actually caught a squirrel, a rat, & a partridge when running in harness.
> 
> I really shouldnt be on here so will have to come back later !
> 
> .


OMG do you know my HPRs have caught and killed squirrels, rabbits, rats, hares, cats and on one occasion a fox.

Sob, this proves they were not purebred, they must have had some husky in them...........................


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> I cannot see the attraction of a breed that moults like a flock of sheep. This alone would put me off, in fact most of the traits they have I find totally undesirable except perhaps if had to cross the snow covered tundra in a hurry and I had no other means of transport.
> 
> I will stick to my pedestrian German Shephered and Malinois, they of course have no prey drive, cannot jump or dig, and are very slow.
> 
> Easy peasy................


Oh you know working line GSDs and Malinois are a walk in the park 
Now where is that video of the guy being mauled by a pack of 11 week old maligator puppies?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Malmum said:


> I wouldn't bother tbh June, we know what we know and I prefer to keep it that way. That's why I stick with the groups who know about the breed and who actually own a few.
> Can't be doing with twaddle, lol.


It's statements like this that are uncalled for IMO. So because no one else owns the breed it's 'twaddle'  Yep, great job on educating people about your breed!

There is no 'twaddle' about simply asking why Huskies are somehow immune to the training every other breed receives ( because as we've already established EVERY breed has the same 'risks' involved in allowing them off ). But Sled dog hotel and Mountainrott did their best to explain. It's good that some in the breed aren't so quick to dismiss those 'not in the know'.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

cbcdesign said:


> Since when do we "Enforce" a command? Positive reinforcement is the widely accepted method of training today, not forcing the animal to our will, but encouraging them to it by rewarding behaviour we prefer. The term "cannot be enforced" implies negative training methods enlightened Dog owners have long since abandoned.


By enforce I meant positively.... as in ginger one knows if i have something he wants more than staying in the garden to sniff.....


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I've known a lot of sibes over the years, and their prey drive is not "exceptional" LOL. Not even close.
> Anyone who thinks the sibe/husky/malamute version of prey drive is anything out of the ordinary must not have a lot of experience with prey drive.
> Sorry to be blunt, but come on... My great dane has more prey drive than most sibes I've met and lived with.


Not rising to the bait Ouesi, believe what you like and say what the hell you want, you know exactly what I and other owners have said along with all the breed clubs. You know exactly what I think of you too. probably the same as your view of me, and guess what I couldn't give a ****


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

I dont agree with people ignoring breed traits, real ones that actually exist in 'your' dog and not just those that are written down by a higher being and are therefore LAW AND MUST BE OBEYED  and yes people are stupid if they think they can get a dog of any breed and take it out and do x y and z with minimal effort, but I haven't read anything in this thread that couldn't apply to my own dog. Although being a little terrier I guess she might not bring down a deer  

I dont think my experience is that different to countless others who really do wonder what it is about a northern breed that makes them so very different to thousands of other dogs.

I have to keep Ninja on lead/line the majority of the time, unless in secure areas, whats deemed secure for her might vary considerably of course (remember she can get through little tiny holes  ) but not vastly different circumstances. 

She might be small but she still needs a huge level of activity to keep her satisfied and content, easily on a par or more than most other dogs. I have taken up running with her in order to fulfill one of her needs. She has a chase instinct that is through the roof and nothing I have done yet has eradicated it, neither will it, its true she doesn't have the killer instinct but that by no means detracts from the urge to chase being a huge issue. 

She can escape as well as the rest of them better in fact see above, tiny holes  and she is quicker than lightening to react if she sees an opportunity.

The battle against those instincts are going to be a constant, I can never relax and say my job is done  

I suppose if I were to say that I work on it constantly with impulse control and recall work and attempting to make myself the centre of her universe, that after two years we are actually getting somewhere, and that recall off a deer that I achieved a month or so back, its all becasue she is easier than a sled dog , nothing to do with the effort I put in, and something no other dog owner the world over has to go through  :yesnod: rrr:

These claims might have more validity and use if they weren't being made to a forum of dog owners a large proportion of whom face similar issues, hence why we are here. 

As a slight aside one of the justifications given for the sibes unique character has been that the breeder used to filter out poor sibe owners, I see nothing wrong with decent breeders of any breed warning potential owners of the possible characteristics they might see and I sincerely wish more of them would refuse to sell many breed to unsuitable people. Again not a sled dog issue alone :rolleyes5:


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Its a shame when threads deteriorate into personal jibes and insults replace well reasoned debate.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Hang on... does this mean that Scooter is not a Labrador at all but is actually a Nordic breed? 
His prey drive and poor recall just aren't very Lab-like (they're meant to be biddable aren't they?) so I guess we were conned into buying a Sibe or a Malamute


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

There is a Malmute off lead at the big N.T park I take Dottie and Charlie, in fact I seen him yesterday and thought of this thread!

He was on a long line before, but then he was off yesterday. I have met the man before and have chatted to him for a bit, the dog was friendly but also run up to a lot of dogs and the owner couldnt get him back.

But then the same could be said for a lot of the dogs I meet! He seen us yesterday as we were going home, stared then looked away.

We also got ambushed by 2 Northern Breeds in a big busy car park/park back in the spring where they rudely barged over and shoved their noses up DnC's butts. The owners didnt care and they had them off lead in the busy crowds and no doubt in the massive forest; again for us that could have been any dog. 

I'm sure if a rabbit run past all 3 of the dogs when me and the man were talking - all 3 would bugger off just as fast as each other! If Charlie gets the tiniest whiff of fox on the fields, I CAN NOT (currently) get him back and he would run over roads and fields to find them!


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## Dan1234 (Dec 3, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> It's statements like this that are uncalled for IMO. So because no one else owns the breed it's 'twaddle'  Yep, great job on educating people about your breed!
> 
> There is no 'twaddle' about simply asking why Huskies are somehow immune to the training every other breed receives ( because as we've already established EVERY breed has the same 'risks' involved in allowing them off ). But Sled dog hotel and Mountainrott did their best to explain. It's good that some in the breed aren't so quick to dismiss those 'not in the know'.


Isn't it well known by now that when a topic of conversation pops up about Northern breeds the Queen Bee will pop up with a polite and informative post 

Anyway's I appreciate some of the other more mature responses, I must admit I haven't really been swayed but I see your reasoning. I think it was Noushka? that said she/he had seen many times of breed groups etc tragic incidents. I would highlight though that tends to happen when you join a lot of specific groups. You will hear almost every negative thing that happens. Doesn't mean that it is common on the grand scale of things.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

A Chinese proverb I keep on my wall reads as follows:

"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person actually doing it"

A maxim that has served me well over the years in many contexts but in particular with dog training as applied to one of my breeds.

What people mean when they say "it cannot be done" is that THEY cannot do it.

A subtle, but important difference.

Of course breeds have been devleoped to excel in different areas and I would not try to train a husky to say compete in sheepdog trials.

That is because they have not been genetically engineered for this purpose.

However this is a specialism.

A recall, a retrieve, a sit, down, stand etc are NOT specialisms and are behaviours that can be taught reliabliy to all dogs provided we make it easy for the dog to understand and we provide sufficient reward.

But, not everyone can do this, as witnessed in millions of parks all over the country every day with every breed (and non breed) you can think of.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> A recall, a retrieve, a sit, down, stand etc are NOT specialisms and are behaviours that can be taught reliabliy to *all* dogs provided we make it easy for the dog to understand and we provide sufficient reward.


If you change the word ALL to MOST - then I would agree with you 

It's the absolute statement of fact that EVERY dog can be trained, ergo ANY dog that is unpredictable has a crap owner is what gets peoples' dander up, together with the "holier than thou" attitude of some :yesnod:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> If you change the word ALL to MOST - then I would agree with you
> 
> It's the absolute statement of fact that EVERY dog can be trained, ergo ANY dog that is unpredictable has a crap owner is what gets peoples' dander up, together with the "holier than thou" attitude of some :yesnod:


That they haven't figured out the right motivation for their dog doesnt make anyone a crap owner, its the attitude towards that information that might make one a little ickle bit 'crappy' (to use your phrase not mine ) in my opinion  but not necessarily a crappy owner.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> If you change the word ALL to MOST - then I would agree with you
> 
> It's the absolute statement of fact that EVERY dog can be trained, ergo ANY dog that is unpredictable has a crap owner is what gets peoples' dander up, together with the "holier than thou" attitude of some :yesnod:


ANY dog can be trained.

ANY animal with a CNS (Central nervous system) can be trained including a fish.

There are millions of examples around the world.

A dog, by contrast, is a doddle.

YOUR ergo is not MY ERGO. 

You have put a "value" on some owners, not me. 

Nobody popped out of the womb knowing how to train any sentient being, but they can learn (if they want to badly enough)

But it is convenient for some to blame their own failings on to the dog, the same way as many parents and teachers do on to their children.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> ANY dog can be trained.
> 
> ANY animal with a CNS (Central nervous system) can be trained including a fish.
> 
> ...


I rest my case


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Not rising to the bait Ouesi, believe what you like and say what the hell you want, you know exactly what I and other owners have said along with all the breed clubs. You know exactly what I think of you too. probably the same as your view of me, and guess what I couldn't give a ****


I seriously don't know what you're talking about... I was talking about dogs, prey drive, and my experiences 

I don't think I was even replying to you was I?
If you find a post about prey drive that wasn't even directed at you so threatening that you have to tell the whole forum that you don't like me, perhaps the issue isn't your dog's prey drive (or lack there-of)?

In any case, I stand by what I said, prey drive in sled dogs is not exceptional.
That is my opinion and my experience which anyone is free to take for whatever it's worth


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Not rising to the bait Ouesi, believe what you like and say what the hell you want, you know exactly what I and other owners have said along with all the breed clubs. You know exactly what I think of you too. probably the same as your view of me, and guess what I couldn't give a ****


Heck, for your incessant insistence that you do not care, your underpants aren't half in a knot. :sosp:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> I rest my case


A very wise decision, in your case.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> One thing I have never understood is if these dogs prey drive is so fierce, they simply can not help themselves, its genetic, you cant fight it or change it. Then what happens when a sled dog is in harness- be that a sled, bike, scooter etc and they see some smaller animal run in the opposite way to the way they should be going? You dont see/ hear stories of millions of prey driven accidents at bijorking or canicross events do you? or do you? Never been to one myself
> 
> Surely if their prey drive is that enormous they would constantly be on the look out for their next "kill".


Erm..not at a cani-cross event (only competed once) BUT if I am not quick off the mark I have been known to pass Usuain Bolt as if he's a chubby middle aged jogger when a deer has broken cover in front of us..the boom as we break the sound barrier is becoming routine and I am an expert in the use of tree brakes :incazzato: :crazy:. Not that mine are Northern Breeds .


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> As I have said in my previous post they are smart enough to know when a command can or cannot be enforced. That said many will take advantage of an opportunity to kill if an animal gets too close. Mine have actually caught a squirrel, a rat, & a partridge when running in harness.
> 
> I really shouldnt be on here so will have to come back later !
> 
> .


Yeah, my mini poodles know if they set off I cant actually stop them. The trick is to keep an eye and give a warning command before they go. But then I assume they can be trained in spite of their desire to go off hunting. (which is a nicer description than prey drive)
They also have killed many rabbits and rats when on a flexi lead.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Erm..not at a cani-cross event (only competed once) BUT if I am not quick off the mark I have been known to pass Usuain Bolt as if he's a chubby middle aged jogger when a deer has broken cover in front of us..the boom as we break the sound barrier is becoming routine and I am an expert in the use of tree brakes :incazzato: :crazy:. Not that mine are Northern Breeds .


This is what I was thinking, love the description &#55357;&#56833; But if you were on a sled or a scooter, surely you'd just shoot off backwards?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Margelli said:


> Heck, for your incessant insistence that you do not care, your underpants aren't half in a knot. :sosp:


bang outta order!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> OMG do you know my HPRs have caught and killed squirrels, rabbits, rats, hares, cats and on one occasion a fox.
> 
> Sob, this proves they were not purebred, they must have had some husky in them...........................


Wouldn't be bragging about the cats myself!
You obviously have no control!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Margelli said:


> Heck, for your incessant insistence that you do not care, your underpants aren't half in a knot. :sosp:


Very rude and very unnecessary.

If you can't take part in a debate without resorting to insults and personal remarks, then best stay out of it.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DT said:


> Wouldn't be bragging about the cats myself!
> You obviously have no control!


I am not sure why you have inferred from my post that I am "bragging" but that is your prerogative.

No I had ZERO control over my first HPR and have written about it for a breed club magazine as a terrible warning to others!

Fortunately, for everyone else, I learned a lot and none of my subsequent dogs have exhibited the ghastly out of control behaviour of my first HPR and I have hopefully progressed from numpty owner to someone who has a vague idea of what they are doing. 

I am always quite open about what a prat of an owner I once was, most of us are as novices.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Very rude and very unnecessary.
> 
> If you can't take part in a debate without resorting to insults and personal remarks, then best stay out of it.


Just for some balance here the remark you and DT are objecting to was in fact in response to a post that was itself not terribly pleasant!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cbcdesign said:


> Just for some balance here the remark you and DT are objecting to was in fact in response to a post that was itself not terribly pleasant!


Apologises! I thought this were a serious discussion! Bringing undergarments into it is not particularly serious! To be more specific the post was tinged with sarcasm!


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Margelli said:


> So what do you do if your lead snaps?


You soil your trousers and buy a better lead.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I've known a lot of sibes over the years, and their prey drive is not "exceptional" LOL. Not even close.
> Anyone who thinks the sibe/husky/malamute version of prey drive is anything out of the ordinary must not have a lot of experience with prey drive.
> Sorry to be blunt, but come on... My great dane has more prey drive than most sibes I've met and lived with.


Of course he has..



SageFemme said:


> When we were looking at different breeds (a good few years ago) one of the breeds we looked at were huskies. I've still to this day never met owners of a breed who wanted to put prospective owners off of that breed so much than those with huskies. It worked - I think me and the OH are put off huskies for life lol


Same here. When our children were small we decided we wanted a dog for them to grow up with. My dream was to own a Siberian husky so we contacted breeders to find out all we could about the breed. They put us off! lol And I'm glad they did, we wouldn't have been able to provide a Siberian everything it needed at that time. We got our wonderful Meg a GSP instead.



cbcdesign said:


> Since when do we "Enforce" a command? Positive reinforcement is the widely accepted method of training today, not forcing the animal to our will, but encouraging them to it by rewarding behaviour we prefer. The term "cannot be enforced" implies negative training methods enlightened Dog owners have long since abandoned.


Bad choice of word , I don't personally know anyone who runs their dogs in harness that uses negative training methods. They are usually taught the command 'on by' when they pass anything interesting, being restricted in harness so they soon learn its pointless giving chase. On a long line they switch off if something catches their eye. I have also taught them to leave, it hasn't worked on animals they have caught.



smokeybear said:


> OMG do you know my HPRs have caught and killed squirrels, rabbits, rats, hares, cats and on one occasion a fox.
> 
> Sob, this proves they were not purebred, they must have had some husky in them...........................


My HPR lived to be 16 & never killed a single thing, she was so gentle to everyone & everything. She would bring me fledglings completely unharmed. She loved our pet rabbits (as did my old ESP) She wasn't brought up with cats, but she loved them.

If your dogs have killed cats & all those wild animals don't you think you ought to be keeping them under control like I try to do my huskies?

.

.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> If your dogs have killed cats & all those wild animals don't you think you ought to be keeping them under control like I try to do my huskies?
> 
> .


Yep, as I said in a previous post, I was a one of those morons who had zero control over their dog.

I have improved since then. 

I have not yet come across anyone who was born knowing how to handle dogs, I had to learn, quite often the hard way. 

That particular HPR is long since dead, he was German and had a very teutonic approach to life. As did many of his relatives.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

DT said:


> Apologises! I thought this were a serious discussion! Bringing undergarments into it is not particularly serious! To be more specific the post was tinged with sarcasm!


It is a serious discussion and you are absolutely right, the comment to which you are referring was tinged with sarcasm but I think as Adults we should be able to discuss things without resorting to insulting somebody because they have a different opinion to another poster. It was the personal comment made that initiated that sarcasm.

You are right in principle though of course, it is out of order for any of us to make personal comments about anybody else. 

As I said earlier its a shame when this happens.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cbcdesign said:


> It is a serious discussion and you are absolutely right, the comment to which you are referring was tinged with sarcasm but I think as Adults we should be able to discuss things without resorting to insulting somebody because they have a different opinion to another poster. It was the personal comment made that initiated that sarcasm.
> 
> You are right in principle though of course, it is out of order for any of us to make personal comments about anybody else.
> 
> As I said earlier its a shame when this happens.


EXACTLY! and one has to remember that that particular member ( sledgedoghotel) that the comment was made about is without a shadow of a doubt one of the most helpful members on this forum!

Edited to add!
And certainly the most knowledgeable!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cbcdesign said:


> It is a serious discussion and you are absolutely right, the comment to which you are referring was tinged with sarcasm but I think as Adults we should be able to discuss things without resorting to insulting somebody because they have a different opinion to another poster. It was the personal comment made that initiated that sarcasm.
> 
> You are right in principle though of course, it is out of order for any of us to make personal comments about anybody else.
> 
> As I said earlier its a shame when this happens.


What about the snide comments prior to that? There is a huge rescue crisis in our breed, and people on here are basically saying huskies are no different to other breeds. Is there any wonder people lose their cool? Its heart breaking seeing the breed you love going the way of the staffie.

.

.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

DT said:


> and one has to remember that that particular member ( sledgedoghotel)


Her name gets longer every week. Next week it is sistersledgedoghotel. C'mon sing it with me...

We are family...
I've got all my sled dogs with me...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> Her name gets longer every week. Next week it is sistersledgedoghotel. C'mon sing it with me...
> 
> We are family...
> I've got all my sled dogs with me...


Excellent diffusion tactics there my friend......


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> Her name gets longer every week. Next week it is sistersledgedoghotel. C'mon sing it with me...
> 
> We are family...
> I've got all my sled dogs with me...


The No Bell (s and whistles) peace prize goes toDief

Now hurry back to the UN their peace envoys don't seem to be on form lately .


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I think Margelli hit the nail on the head by asking what a Sibe/Mal owner would do if their lead snaps (or if you were to drop the lead for any reason, or if a dog slipped its collar/harness). What ARE you supposed to do?

This is not directed at anyone on here because I do not know how you train or handle your dogs, but I get the impression that a lot of people with Sibes don't actually work on getting a reliable recall, because they are told time and time again that it's impossible to achieve in the breed. If you don't train your dog to recall, it's not going to recall reliably regardless of its breed!

I'll use Scooter as an example (wrote something to this effect on an onlead/offlead thread). Scooter's recall has always been poor and his prey drive has always been high. Until about 18 months ago he was offlead every day where safe, after months and months of recall training with a clicker, longline and a combo of high-value treats and premack. His recall was very good for a very long time. He had to go onlead for health reasons and due to both this and me going back to uni, his recall simply hasn't been practised. He now has relatively poor recall and stays onlead (again, due to his weak ticker). His "just in case" recall is now once again, and frustratingly so, a work in progress.
With a lot of dogs - including Scooter - you have to constantly work to achieve a reliable recall as they are so motivated by things that aren't their handler. Other dogs - like Breeze - are not so motivated by the environment so need relatively little recall training.

While I would be hesitant to let a Sibe/Mal offlead because I know they typically have high prey drive, breed _traits_ are _not_ hard and fast rules. There are users on this forum who own breeds with notoriously poor recall and/or high prey drive who have managed to train their dogs to perform a reliable recall. There are also users here with typically biddable breeds whose dogs have little-no recall (like muggins here).
With all due respect, Noushka, you do not know what the prey drive of Ouesi's Great Dane is like, so scoffing at her statement is just daft. No-ones made any daft comments about your dogs' natures.
The strongest prey drive I've had to work with (against?) was that of a Westie X.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Excellent diffusion tactics there my friend......


I'm doing my best. If we could all light a candle and hold hands...

I believe the doggies are our future..
Teach them well ( positive reinforcement of course  )
and let them lead the way ( on a long line if necessary )...

It's PF Karaoke night. Who's next ?


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> What about the snide comments prior to that? There is a huge rescue crisis in our breed, and people on here are basically saying huskies are no different to other breeds. Is there any wonder people lose their cool? Its heart breaking seeing the breed you love going the way of the staffie.


I am sure it is heart-breaking but sadly people will follow trends and shows like Game of Thrones will make any dog that bears any sort of resemblance to the Wolf like creatures in that show popular, for a while at least. That's makes discussions like this even more valuable though I think, they can help bring all the points of view into focus so people considering a Northern Breed have plenty to think about.

I for one have learnt quite a lot, particularly about Huskies.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I've never owned a Husky or Mal, so have no knowledge really of the Breed traits.

I have, however, owned PRTs/JRTs for many years and I know all too well what they're capable of. I would never dare let Rosie offlead in the wood where squirrels live. When she sees a squirrel, all sense of reason goes out of the window. She goes berserk. I have tried everything. If I see the squirrel before her, I try distracting her with treats, changing direction, trying to get her to focus on me, but if she sees the squirrel, she literally loses it and has actually climbed a tree, (as far as she could), after one.

She now stays on a training line in the wood.

A few days ago, I was in the wood when a dog came tearing up to us and, just as quickly, tore off again. He ran to the park area and up to a Cocker Spaniel which took exception and attacked him. He then tore off in the opposite direction and disappeared for a while. I could hear his owner yelling his name the entire time.

He reappeared a while later, and began running round and round the wood, in circles, with his owner running behind him.

The dog, I was told by his owner, was a Husky/GSD cross. Beautiful dog, about the size of a GSD, gold in colour, but with the coat and characteristics of a Husky. The owner told me it was the first time he had let him offlead and had been trying for an hour to catch him.

It may just have been that particular dog, he was young, but I'm sure part of any dogs' behaviour is what they are, that is what they were originally bred to do.

My Sister has always owned Cavaliers and, on a walk through the wood, they did not react to squirrels, any of them, yet my Terriers lose their minds over them.

I think you have to know your own dog, be very mindful of what their instincts are telling them to do and use whatever means to control them and, if that means keeping them onlead, so be it.

After all, it's not only about the safety of your own dog, but a dog charging around the park, seemingly out of control, can be very unnerving to other dog owners.

There is no right or wrong, in my opinion, it's about taking the sensible and safe approach with any one dog in any set of circumstances.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Think that says it all! well said!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> What about the snide comments prior to that? There is a huge rescue crisis in our breed, and people on here are basically saying huskies are no different to other breeds. Is there any wonder people lose their cool? Its heart breaking seeing the breed you love going the way of the staffie.
> .


This confuses me. If anyone DARES to say that a staffie has the traits that put so many into rescue there is an uproar - it is all down to the owner apparently, staffies are perfect dogs if they are trained correctly.

Incidentally I was telling a postman friend about this thread and she said there is a malamute on her round who sits all day in a garden that it could easily jump out of - just have to pop a low wall. It never moves, never escapes.

The GSD/husky that someone mentioned. If it was the first time it had been let off of course it ran away! I know a gsd/husky/GR that is one dog I would say has a 100 percent recall - because it has been trained from a pup to have one.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Blitz said:


> This confuses me. If anyone DARES to say that a staffie has the traits that put so many into rescue there is an uproar - it is all down to the owner apparently, staffies are perfect dogs if they are trained correctly.
> 
> Incidentally I was telling a postman friend about this thread and she said there is a malamute on her round who sits all day in a garden that it could easily jump out of - just have to pop a low wall. It never moves, never escapes.
> 
> The GSD/husky that someone mentioned. If it was the first time it had been let off of course it ran away! I know a gsd/husky/GR that is one dog I would say has a 100 percent recall - because it has been trained from a pup to have one.


and your point is?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DT said:


> and your point is?


DT, can I ask you why you come in at the end of a very long thread and start having digs at people when it is fairly obvious you have not read the whole thread and have no idea what is behind what is being said.
You have done this before too.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Blitz said:


> DT, can I ask you why you come in at the end of a very long thread and start having digs at people when it is fairly obvious you have not read the whole thread and have no idea what is behind what is being said.
> You have done this before too.


Yep! sure you can ask me! but yes I OFTEN come in at the end and reply on the previous posts , is there a law against that? I picked up this thread when I logged in and replied accordingly! is there a rule again that?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I seriously don't know what you're talking about... I was talking about dogs, prey drive, and my experiences
> 
> I don't think I was even replying to you was I?
> If you find a post about prey drive that wasn't even directed at you so threatening that you have to tell the whole forum that you don't like me, perhaps the issue isn't your dog's prey drive (or lack there-of)?
> ...


Never is you is it, go on a wind up, then play the victim,usual MO, considering it followed my post and you used the words I had used in your pop you know fall well.

No I don't like you, or more specifically your MO but Im at least up front about it and don't do it in snide remarks like some.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Margelli said:


> Heck, for your incessant insistence that you do not care, your underpants aren't half in a knot. :sosp:


Nothing wrong with my drawers love
At least I say what I mean and don't do it with digs on the sly.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

For the 1 millionth time what is so different about Huskies?? Noushka you said _"There is a huge rescue crisis in our breed, and people on here are basically saying huskies are no different to other breeds"_ but yet countless other people see the same traits in their breed/dog. How can that be if the Husky is so very different? I am yet to see anyone say anything jaw dropping and shocking about the breed. All that seems to be referenced to is that they have a strong prey drive and run for miles going deaf when off...

I feel like a broken record.....and while some have explained how strong a prey drive they have, I'm still not understanding how that makes them 'different'. Doubt I ever will if that's what is considered so very unique about them.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

Blitz said:


> This confuses me. If anyone DARES to say that a staffie has the traits that put so many into rescue there is an uproar - it is all down to the owner apparently, staffies are perfect dogs if they are trained correctly.


This is a very good point. Its the other end of the spectrum. Where breed defenders are so completely bent on denying a breeds traits that they end up erring.

Neither is useful IMHO.

Staffies (like many breeds) do indeed have a propensity to mature in to dog intolerant adults. And to deny that does the breed no favors. 
However nor is it helpful to say never allow your staffie around any other dog ever under any circumstance. No. You socialize your dog, you train your dog, you watch your dog, you learn your dog, and you make an educated decision about dog interactions.

In the same way sled dogs (like many breeds) do indeed have a propensity for being boogers about recall. No one is denying that, and no, it doesnt do the breed any favors to say meh, no worries, let him off, hell be fine! (Is anyone on this thread even saying that? I dont think so.)
However, nor do you go to the other extreme and say a sled dog can never be off lead ever under any circumstance. Again, you get your dog used to being off lead, you train, you watch your dog, you learn your dog, and based on what you know about your *individual* dog and your skills and abilities, you make an educated decision about letting that dog off lead.

The other thing that keeps coming up on those staffie threads is that those traits that make them potentially unsafe with other dogs are not unique to staffies. Lots of breeds tend to be dog intolerant, lots of breeds have prey drive, lots of breeds have tenacity etc., etc. 
In the same way, those traits that make sled dogs boogers about recall are not unique to northern breeds. Lots of breeds run and run and run, lots of breeds have prey drive, lots of breeds are independent, and smart, and sneaky, and problem solvers, etc., etc.

Its pretty much the exact same discussion! :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Of course he has...


She. Breez is a she.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> What about the snide comments prior to that? There is a huge rescue crisis in our breed, and people on here are *basically saying huskies are no different to other breeds*. Is there any wonder people lose their cool? Its heart breaking seeing the breed you love going the way of the staffie.


How do you think other people feel with the inference that their dogs are not as special, unique, different ?? Or just not as plain !!!!!! as huskies. That we all have it easier blah blah (if only that were true)

No one is saying they are not different, all breeds are unique, just as all individuals within that breed spectrum are unique. But so far no one has come up with a defining factor that makes them different from 'any' other dog on the planet and thus warrant the special status they seem to have. The only defining thing as far as I can see is the owners insistence that they are so very different, so primal, so difficult to rule, dare I say it they are perpetuating the wolf dog image.

Not only are they fluffy wolf dogs, they are difficult to handle fluffy wolf dogs , and its any wonder the general ignorant dog owning community who lets face it still in the main believe in dominating their dogs, think pfft I can manage that, I can handle that, need a new challenge now my staffie has been proved a soft as nannie dog lets move onto something 'harder' 

This is by no means aimed solely at you as an owner Noushka, you just said something that hit a minor nerve given all the claims in this thread.

Maybe the owners could explain it better by expressing what it is about the breed they love so much? rather than defending a trait which which frankly no one would choose


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

GingerRogers said:


> Maybe the owners could explain it better by expressing what it is about the breed they love so much? rather than defending a trait which which frankly no one would choose


Fab idea. Can we have a thread 'things I love about my husky' or similar.. I've only ever heard negative things about them and would love to hear some positives :001_wub:


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

If Huskies have a prey drive above and beyond any other breed, and will run for countless miles (further than any other breed I'm sure), why aren't they used for hunting? 
By the sounds of it, the hunting community has been missing a trick. Instead of Foxhounds, Beagles, and Harriers, they should be using Sibes!  Unless of course the breed is too much for a lowly hunstman or whipper-in to handle, which it probably is... 

It used to be said that Beagles were completely untrainable in all respects as they are pack animals (like Huskies), with typically poor recall when distracted (like Huskies) and significant prey drive (like Huskies). Now they are popular pets and a quick look at some of the main breed clubs & rescues did not reveal the same blanket onlead-only rule as Huskie clubs are keen to enforce, despite the Beagle's reputation for not recalling.

I do not support the "sport" of hunting, for what it's worth.

As for the rescue situation, I get the impression that people will continue to buy Huskie pups from BYBs because they find them visually appealing until such time as the Huskie fad has passed. That seems to be what matters most to a lot of - if not most - people when choosing a dog.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

Thorne said:


> It used to be said that Beagles were completely untrainable in all respects as they are pack animals (like Huskies), with typically poor recall when distracted (like Huskies) and significant prey drive (like Huskies). Now they are popular pets and a quick look at some of the main breed clubs & rescues did not reveal the same blanket onlead-only rule as Huskie clubs are keen to enforce, despite the Beagle's reputation for not recalling.
> 
> I do not support the "sport" of hunting, for what it's worth.


Yes, back in the 1930s my grandfather hunted with beagles. His dogs were also pets, and my mom has fond memories of growing up with a house full of beagles.

Grandpa had a funny noise he would make to recall the dogs. It was a long call that I guess might have been here at some point but it sounded more like heeeee yA". He used it when the dogs had been gone on a scent for a while but hadnt started baying, so he would call them off to come back and try a different trail. Amazing huh? Dogs in a pack on a scent far off in the woods, able to be called off....

The coonhunters around here do something similar. Same thing, dogs gone for a while they call them back and try again. 
(And no, I dont support hunting either.)

There are so many different things folks do with dogs that most of us (myself included) have no clue about. But the more I find out, the more fascinating dogs are to me, and the people who love them


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Sometimes I think that one of the reasons why huskies are so popular is exactly the way majority of owners describe them. They are described as wild, independent and rebellious. So this whole description attracts the same sort of owners like staffies with their made up image of ferocious beasts. It's as if there are some "cool dog clubs" out there and so everyone wants to become a part of the cool club with their rebellious dogs. Throw in some fluffy tails and blue eyes, movies that show how funny and cheeky snow dogs are and here you have a new "cool" breed.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

GingerRogers said:


> How do you think other people feel with the inference that their dogs are not as special, unique, different ?? Or just not as plain !!!!!! as huskies. That we all have it easier blah blah (if only that were true)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Defending a trait? Jeezus, I give up.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Defending a trait? Jeezus, I give up.


There was no sarcasm aimed at you!!!! Yes I was wondering if inadvertently you (the general, not specific you) may be perpetuating the image in others minds of the tricky difficult to own cult dog.

I was trying to express how other people (those you dont want to get their hands on one) see it. As Shadowmare said as well  (Possibly better than I did as she didnt get blue texted :sosp: )

I am not doubting that the problem is the inexperienced owner, but that again is the same problem as all the other dogs that end up in rescue through being ignorantly obtained by someone who was probably sucked in by their image either aesthetic or reputation and not the truth behind the fur.

I meant it, this whole debate is always about emphasizing how little you can trust a sibe, and how us ignorants who have never owned one cant possibly understand that part of their character, well clearly a lot of us can, so what is it that makes them the breed for you and countless others, cos it cant be their lack of recall that appeals??!! Maybe if you could explain that then some us might be able to understand the special status you bestow on them above all other dogs.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

GingerRogers said:


> There was no sarcasm aimed at you!!!! Yes I was wondering if inadvertently you (the general, not specific you) may be perpetuating the image in others minds of the tricky difficult to own cult dog.
> 
> I was trying to express how other people (those you dont want to get their hands on one) see it. As Shadowmare said as well  (Possibly better than I did as she didnt get blue texted :sosp: )
> 
> ...


Your post comes across as so patronising. I'm not going to post why I love the breed for you to sneer & pick holes. Nighty night.

.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

Blitz said:


> OP, *duck for the flak.* I agree with you though. Any breed of dog that is considered suitable to live as a pet should be able to be trained to be off lead.


Just cracking up at this post. Fourth post in the thread. Now what, 20 pages later? Oh Bitz how right you were....  

But in all seriousness, I do enjoy these discussions (aside from the squabbles). Were not ever all going to agree, and thats fine, I do find the information that ends up being shared within the discussion itself really interesting, and the people watching is pretty interesting too.

Behavior behavior behavior.... fascinating stuff....


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Again, haven't read all the replies, but this thread has got me thinking, so I've done the best I can to research certain characteristics usually cited as inherently Husky or Mal...

"They're that much more primitive"
Dogguide.net/blog/2007/09/most-ancient-breed-the-genetics

The top 7 most ancient breeds listed on the above are as follows (in order as displayed on the site)
Chow Chow
Shar-Pei
Akita
Shiba Inu
Basenji
Siberian Husky
Alaskan Mal

So yes, the husky and Mal are "2 of" the most ancient breeds, but not necessarily THE 2. The rest of the list of 14 ancient breeds are as follows:
-Afghan Hound
- Lhasa Apso
-Pekingese 
-Saluki
-Samoyed
-Shih Tzu
-Tibetan Terrier.

The Carolina.Dog is thought to be the oldest breed in the world, maybe as much as 8,000 years.old, but wasn't included in the study.

"Siberian Huskies and Mals have such high prey drives".
Dogtime.com/dog-breeds/characteristic_lists/high-prey-drive

Loads listed here, but to give you an idea:
Cane Corso
Ibizan Hound
Australian Terrier
Bedlington Terrier
Mal
Borzoi
Whippet
Greyhounds

Sibes weren't even on the list!! I checked - twice.

"Huskies and Mals are so intelligent"
Petmedsonline.org/top-10-smartest-dogs-in-the-world.html
In reverse order:
Australian Cattle Dog
Rottweiler
Papillon
Lab
Sheltie
Dobe
Golden Retriever
GSD

And no prizes for guessing the top 2:
Poodle
BC

Sibes and Huskies aren't even on there, so I checked out the next site. In general, it confirmed the above, but also added a few more intelligent breeds (far from extensive, I admit)

Dogbreedlist.info/smartest-dog-breeds
Yorkshire Terrier
Boxer
Bearded Collie
Pug

Sibes and Mals weren't even on the first page.

So, what's so unique about them? They're not THE most primitive breeds, they're not the most intelligent, they're not the highest prey driven. They're not the only ones who moult for fun, nor are they the only dogs that escape (Milly is good at that, too, if I don't have my wits about me, and she'll be long gone by the time a husky is out of the street). They're not the only ones involved in RTAs, and I daresay they're not the only ones shot by farmers.

A dog of any other breed blows a recall once: That's a fluke. Husky or Mal does it, and that dog can never be trusted offlead ever again.

Any other dog breed is an escape artist and it's the owner's fault, but Husky and Mals are known for it, so it's just them.

I have to say, I'm very disappointed in the conduct of the husky owners. Not all, but SDH, and Malmum have really let themselves down in their arguments. I'm not excusing one person's comment about another member's underwear, but it was also uncalled for for SDH to publically announce her feelings towards.another member, or throw what can only be described as a tantrum because another member (not even the same member) threw up a counter argument based on their own (admittedly limited) experience.

Now, I'm not saying that I (and others) are right and Sibe/Mal owners are wrong. I admit I don't know what it's like to live with either breed, but from the above, it does appear to me as though there's nothing actually unique about Huskies or mals beyond the, perhaps, somewhat elitist beliefs of their owners.

I apologise if that offends any husky/mal owner reading this, but this was just one of those niggling little brain itches that often refuse to let my brain shut down and go to sleep.

I also apologise if the link/s don't work - I am limited to a hospital tv/internet hub and my mobile, so couldn't keep them open and c&p them while typing this reply.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I imagine this thread will be closed soon... I like a heated discussion but seems it's now turning to personal jibes. Shame, but this thread also seems to be going round in circles as questions aren't really being answered.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> I imagine this thread will be closed soon... I like a heated discussion but seems it's now turning to personal jibes. Shame, but this thread also seems to be going round in circles as questions aren't really being answered.


If the northern breeds are not for the inexperienced, and they are totally unlike any other breed, how does one gain sled dog experience?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> If the northern breeds are not for the inexperienced, and they are totally unlike any other breed, how does one gain sled dog experience?


You tell me  
Surely everyone who first has a northern breed are inexperienced with the breed itself? and by the sounds of it they're totally like many other breeds.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LinznMilly said:


> Again, haven't read all the replies, but this thread has got me thinking, so I've done the best I can to research certain characteristics usually cited as inherently Husky or Mal...
> 
> "They're that much more primitive"
> Dogguide.net/blog/2007/09/most-ancient-breed-the-genetics
> ...





Hanwombat said:


> I imagine this thread will be closed soon... I like a heated discussion but seems it's now turning to personal jibes. Shame, but this thread also seems to be going round in circles as questions aren't really being answered.


I really don't know why I'm bothering, but ere we go lol

I've already posted this but it must have been overlooked...

The Siberian husky along with the Alaskan Malamute are little changed from the original phenotype

The phenotype for Northern Breeds describes what works in the Arctic:

Thick, waterproof, double coat; 
Bushy tail he can curl around his nose to warm his breath while sleeping; 
Long nose to warm the air before it reaches his lungs; 
Moderate stop to create nasal passages which further warm the air before it is drawn into the lungs; 
A seasonal oil deposit under his eyebrows which moves when he shakes his head and helps to shake off accumulated snow; 
Thickly furred, prick ears to prevent frostbite; 
Long legs to get through accumulated snow; 
Pain tolerance; 
Stubbornness and an independent streak a mile wide; 
Ability to think for himself in order to survive in a hostile environment; 
Pack mentality that helps hunting & pulling (i.e. community survival); 
Friendliness to strangers (lack of guarding instinct) in a nomadic community where people come and go frequently; 
Howls, to communicate across large distances with the rest of the pack/family; and 
Almond shaped, obliquely shaped eyes to keep them from freezing in the cold wind.

Without these specific characteristics any dog (or wolf )would have a harder time surviving in the Arctic.

These aren't 'elitist beliefs' as you put it - of course I'm passionate about my breed, just as people in other breeds are about theirs - being honest about their negatives doesn't make someone elitist does it?. Imo the Siberian is a specialist breed, this thread could have people believing otherwise.

I'm not surprised at all that the Siberian husky isn't on the 'intelligence' list & the BC & poodle are top of it. Because that list isn't about 'intelligence' but obedience (& before anyone jumps down my throat I'm not saying those breeds aren't intelligent).

Do you believe a great dane would be able to survive for longer than a husky if it had to fend for itself in the wild Linz? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.

.

.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Do you believe a great dane would be able to survive for longer than a husky if it had to fend for itself in the wild Linz? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.
> 
> .


In the Arctic, no but in a temperate climate I do not see that any particular breed of dog has an advantage/or disadvantage fending for itself?

There are countless examples of various pedigree dogs (and non pedigree dogs) of various sizes fending for themselves for quite some considerable time when abandoned/lost etc

The Husky does in fact have some unique features as a breed (according to viees posited in the SPARCS conference) but they would not necessarily be a factor in self sufficiency.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> I imagine this thread will be closed soon... I like a heated discussion but seems it's now turning to personal jibes. Shame, but this thread also seems to be going round in circles as questions aren't really being answered.


I know, and it is a shame if it does get closed. I know I've no doubt asked the same questions everyone else has, and not received any replies, or received any that satisfies their/my curiosity, which is why I took things further and looked beyond the forum. Whether what I've posted above has also been posted before, I genuinely don't know.

I almost wish I could have gotten any other bee in my bonnet (am I allowed to refer to my own headgear, or is that bang out of order, too ) than this thread, but when something's niggling me that much it won't rest until it has its resolution.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> In the Arctic, no but in a temperate climate I do not see that any particular breed of dog has an advantage/or disadvantage fending for itself?
> 
> There are countless examples of various pedigree dogs (and non pedigree dogs) of various sizes fending for themselves for quite some considerable time when abandoned/lost etc
> 
> The Husky does in fact have some unique features as a breed (according to viees posited in the SPARCS conference) but they would not necessarily be a factor in self sufficiency.


Sorry I should have been more clear, I specifically mean if they had to hunt to survive? - in a temperate climate in you like lol

.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The following features are not unique to sled dogs or northern breeds!

Thick, waterproof, double coat; (I give you the Labrador)

Bushy tail he can curl around his nose to warm his breath while sleeping; (I give you the Akita)

Long nose to warm the air before it reaches his lungs; (The GSD)

Moderate stop to create nasal passages which further warm the air before it is drawn into the lungs; (The Weimaraner)

A seasonal oil deposit under his eyebrows which moves when he shakes his head and helps to shake off accumulated snow; (this may be the exception)

Thickly furred, prick ears to prevent frostbite; (lots of breeds)

Long legs to get through accumulated snow; (The deerhound)

Pain tolerance; (Any bull breed)

Stubbornness and an independent streak a mile wide; (scientists have yet to discover the "stubborn" organ and there are lots of very independent breeds if you read breed standards)

Ability to think for himself in order to survive in a hostile environment; (any feral dog)

Pack mentality that helps hunting & pulling (i.e. community survival); (Oh VERY dangerous ground here, I think you may need to read up on "pack drive"  )

Friendliness to strangers (lack of guarding instinct) in a nomadic community where people come and go frequently; (I give you the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel)

Howls, to communicate across large distances with the rest of the pack/family; (Blood hounds)

and 
Almond shaped, obliquely shaped eyes to keep them from freezing in the cold wind. (in lots of breed standards, the eyes that is not the purpose)

Now of course further to the above there are breeds that have more than one of the above characteristics.

I do not think anyone is disputing the fact that if they were in the Arctic the dog of choice may be the Husky (although we must not forget the very successful racing sled teams containing GSP and mixes to name but one).

The fact they are eminently suitable to a particular climate does not ipso facto cause a recall issue.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Sorry I should have been more clear, I specifically mean if they had to hunt to survive? - in a temperate climate in you like lol
> 
> .


Again there are lots of dogs which can and do hunt to survive.

And in fact how would you compare breeds, in the Artic prey is much less abundant than in a temperate climate after all.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I really don't know why I'm bothering, but ere we go lol
> 
> I've already posted this but it must have been overlooked...
> 
> ...


Of course a great Dane won't survive longer than a husky in the wild, but then a husky wouldn't survive longer than a saluki in the dessert! I'm not disputing that huskies are bred for harsh winter climates. Thick double coat for warmth? Max has that! l As for a bushy tail that can wrap around his nose to warm his breath, seen Max's tail? There's a pic of him in my sig. Milly can also curl her tail around her nose - no, it won't help keep her warm, but it's again, not something that's strictly.limited to huskies.

As it happens, I did start to look up most independent breeds, too, but I'm sorry, but fatigue set in and I was due my meds. There's only so much I can do with what I have. Maybe, when I get a.minute, I'll look into most independent breeds but I imagine this thread will be closed by then.

I've openly said - twice - that I haven't read all the replies, and I've never said I'm right and you're.wrong. I don't know. Maybe, if I.were to get a husky, my opinion would change, but to me, yes, sometimes husky owners do come across - or have done in this thread, as somewhat elitist.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Of course a great Dane won't survive longer than a husky in the wild, but then a husky wouldn't survive longer than a *saluki in the dessert*! I'm not disputing that huskies are bred for harsh winter climates. Thick double coat for warmth? Max has that! l As for a bushy tail that can wrap around his nose to warm his breath, seen Max's tail? There's a pic of him in my sig. Milly can also curl her tail around her nose - no, it won't help keep her warm, but it's again, not something that's strictly.limited to huskies.
> 
> As it happens, I did start to look up most independent breeds, too, but I'm sorry, but fatigue set in and I was due my meds. There's only so much I can do with what I have. Maybe, when I get a.minute, I'll look into most independent breeds but I imagine this thread will be closed by then.
> 
> I've openly said - twice - that I haven't read all the replies, and I've never said I'm right and you're.wrong. I don't know. Maybe, if I.were to get a husky, my opinion would change, but to me, yes, sometimes husky owners do come across - or have done in this thread, as somewhat elitist.


I never want to see a Saluki (or any other breed of dog) in the dessert thank you.

I have seen lots of them in the desert though.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> The following features are not unique to sled dogs or northern breeds!
> 
> Thick, waterproof, double coat; (I give you the Labrador)
> 
> ...


The Siberian has all these things combined.



smokeybear said:


> Again there are lots of dogs which can and do hunt to survive.
> 
> And in fact how would you compare breeds, in the Artic prey is much less abundant than in a temperate climate after all.


I know there are, but I'm talking about great danes /Siberian huskies.

Don't you think physical characteristics matter? IMO any breed closest to the original phenotype, in any climate, has the advantage.

Yes, huskies had to be very adept at hunting to survive in the Arctic.

.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

http://www.shwauk.org.uk/Siberian Huskies - The Offlead Debate.doc

I find the debate interesting as I have a Yorkshire terrier. They were originally ratters, but their purpose has changed in a relatively short time. The article is by a breed club and says why they think they shouldn't be off lead.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> T
> 
> Pain tolerance; (Any bull breed)
> 
> .


Er except mine....... :lol:

Surely the survival thing is not just a breed thing but a individual dog thing? I know an Aussie Shep X who would do just fine if kicked out of his house, and probably provide for his collie X Mrs too..... there must be northern breed dogs who'd just locate the nearest human rather than hunt for survival......


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> I never want to see a Saluki (or any other breed of dog) in the dessert thank you.
> 
> I have seen lots of them in the desert though.


I wish I could blame autocorrect, but sadly it's my brain going to mush.  I used to be proud of my spelling, but it's getting worser.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Not really seeing how a bog off dog would be helpful in the artic for sled pulling? The second they get free/released from their equipments they could run off into the wilderness! And that's a trait that's survived this long!? 


Annnnnnnd I personally don't think 'Stubbornness' is a thing in dogs, as usually its due to an inadequate reinforcer. And again why would you want a stubborn dog where your survival could depend on it? :confused1:


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Never is you is it, go on a wind up, then play the victim,usual MO, considering it followed my post and you used the words I had used in your pop you know fall well.
> 
> No I don't like you, or more specifically your MO but Im at least up front about it and don't do it in snide remarks like some.


You've lost the plot! Yes my underwear quote was childish, but it wasn't exactly offensive was it? What exactly does this public outburst (which you could have achieved via pm or the ignore button) achieve? Why are you being unpleasant to another member who hasn't actually insulted you? :frown2: I'd somewhat understand if it was aimed at me, but you chosen a target who has no reason to be one!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Margelli said:


> Not really seeing how a bog off dog would be helpful in the artic for sled pulling? The second they get free/released from their equipments they could run off into the wilderness! And that's a trait that's survived this long!?
> 
> Annnnnnnd I personally don't think 'Stubbornness' is a thing in dogs, as usually its due to an inadequate reinforcer. And again why would you want a stubborn dog where your survival could depend on it? :confused1:


The Chukchi were smart enough to know the dogs would come back in winter when prey was scarce - to be fed.

Ignoring commands and using their own initiative saved many a mushers life. Obeying commands unquestioningly in the frozen Arctic would be very dangerous indeed.

.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Ignoring commands and using their own initiative saved many a mushers life. Obeying commands unquestioningly in the frozen Arctic would be very dangerous indeed.


But surely this is not just restricted to the Arctic (or Northern breeds)?
Even the humble Labrador will display this trait on occasion - for example the guide dog that refuses to cross a road as it perceives some danger that the owner is unaware of...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dimwit said:


> But surely this is not just restricted to the Arctic (or Northern breeds)?
> Even the humble Labrador will display this trait on occasion - for example the guide dog that refuses to cross a road as it perceives some danger that the owner is unaware of...


I didn't say it was restricted to Nordic breeds - I was answering a question. That is all lol


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Do you believe a great dane would be able to survive for longer than a husky if it had to fend for itself in the wild Linz? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.





noushka05 said:


> Sorry I should have been more clear, I specifically mean if they had to hunt to survive? - in a temperate climate in you like lol


I know this wasnt aimed at me, but I feel qualified to answer since Lunar was a great dane and he did survive in the wild quite well.

He was found in an remote area about 2 miles up the road from where we live. This is a state park area, and my friend, who is a park ranger had known about him for a while. A great dane (unmistakable giant merle dog) and some smaller dachshund-looking dog had been roaming the park for at least 5 months that she knew about. Because it had been 5 months that they had been trying to catch/trap him.

When we got him, he had an oddly shaped leg which we x-rayed. On X-ray it turns out the leg had shrapnel in it and a bad break that had since healed over. He had been shot and his leg basically blown up. It had happened long enough ago that it had completely healed and calcified, with no evidence on the outside (other than the deformation). IOW, he had been shot probably a year ago. Oh, and the rest of his body was full of buckshot. So not only had he been shot with a rifle, but also on a second occasion with a shotgun. Again, no external evidence, so it had happened a while ago.

So yes, a great dane can survive in the wild. And a great dane can have enough prey drive to feed himself. (My female dane is a very effective rabbit hunter.)
In Lunars case Im sure he was also scavenging carrion, but watching his reaction to sheep I also am pretty sure I know exactly why he got shot.

You want to talk smart and knowing when something is worth it and when it isnt? I never saw Lunar even remotely interested in smaller prey like squirrels (while Breez - the genius dog will turn in to a prancing dork at the sight of squirrels). No, Lunar could care two hoots about squirrels, but hell take down a goat in a skinny minute. He knew what was worth it and what wasn't.

A great dane can also be a problem solver, escape artist as Lunar escaped capture for over 5 months - that we know of, could have been longer.

I could go on, but the point is not to pit one breed against the other, thats not my intention. My point is that nothing that has been said about siberians behavior-wise is unique to the siberian husky breed. IMO of course. My opinion is based on experience with huskies AND experience with other breeds. Many other breeds and mixes.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

How the feck is this still going on.....

Sarcastic comments don't do anything but get peoples backs up. Not constructive and there are plenty of those in this thread.

Yes any dog can be trained to recall and be trained generally. But we can't deny that not all dogs are created equally in this stake. Perhaps Huskies are more difficult to manage in this respect - I have no idea, but I presume that responsible people who have owned/bred/worked them for donkeys years have a better idea about the breed than those who have zero experience with them and are desperate to prove a point.

I believe there is a bit of a rescue crisis going on with Huskies and their various types. I'm sure the last thing this breed needs is more plebs buying them thinking they are a Golden Retriever in a prettier exterior. 

Just surprised to hear of the chastising of people who only let their dogs off lead in secure areas and/or keep them on lead elsewhere. If every owner I met did this unless they had excellent control, walks would be heaven!!


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> The Chukchi were smart enough to know the dogs would come back in winter when prey was scarce - to be fed.
> 
> *Ignoring commands and using their own initiative saved many a mushers life. Obeying commands unquestioningly in the frozen Arctic would be very dangerous indeed.*
> 
> .


The bolded is called intelligent disobedience and is present in many breeds. The term was first coined in the service dog community when a guide dog would disobey a known cue in order to protect the handler. It is not unique to any breed that I know of.

In fact how many stories of horses refusing to cross bridges or go in a certain direction are there? So a sled dog refuses to cross an unsafely frozen pond, a horse refuses to cross an unsafe bridge. Thats just animals being smarter than humans (as they often are), not sled dogs being unique in their thinking abilities.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

labradrk said:


> Just surprised to hear of the chastising of people who only let their dogs off lead in secure areas and/or keep them on lead elsewhere. If every owner I met did this unless they had excellent control, walks would be heaven!!


Not one person has chastised anyone for keeping their dog on lead have they?
I know Ive said on several occasions that Im not questioning individual dog owners choices, that folks know their own dogs best, and that personally I think most dogs I see off lead have no business being off lead. Personally I wish MORE people kept their dogs on lead.

What the discussion is about (in my mind) is that northern breeds are or are not a unique breed completely different than any other breed known to man that makes teaching them recall a completely different endeavor than anyone else has ever experienced.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ouesi said:


> The bolded is called intelligent disobedience and is present in many breeds. The term was first coined in the service dog community when a guide dog would disobey a known cue in order to protect the handler. It is not unique to any breed that I know of.
> 
> In fact how many stories of horses refusing to cross bridges or go in a certain direction are there? So a sled dog refuses to cross an unsafely frozen pond, a horse refuses to cross an unsafe bridge. Thats just animals being smarter than humans (as they often are), not sled dogs being unique in their thinking abilities.


I was answering a question. I always thought it was called selective disobedience by the way?

Perhaps you need to combine that quality with everything else & then see if the Nordics possess a unique combination of qualities that makes them different to other breeds; ie less trustworthy?

.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Your post comes across as so patronising. I'm not going to post why I love the breed for you to sneer & pick holes. Nighty night.
> 
> .


No patronization, no sarcasm, not aimed at sled dog owners. Really the only superiority comes back at us mortal dog owners. No (to pick up on labradorks comment) person has chastised anyone for keeping a dog on a lead in fact many of us have pointed out that actually we have to do a lot of the same type of management. No one is saying huskies are not beautiful, wonderful dogs. All I and others want to know is what it is about them that makes them so unique, so much smarter and thus by association their owners, because that is exactly what seems to be being inferred!

I know which side of the debate should be feeling insulted :confused1: but given the opportunity to extol the virtues of your breed you go getting all indignant instead.

SB/L&M have listed many other dogs that share the individual traits of huskies and you rightly point out that huskies might be the only dog that has all those particular traits, but I am sure there are many other dogs that have a particular trait 'set' unique to that breed but shared individually with others and indeed with other species.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

GingerRogers said:


> No patronization, no sarcasm, not aimed at sled dog owners. Really the only superiority comes back at us mortal dog owners. No (to pick up on labradorks comment) person has chastised anyone for keeping a dog on a lead in fact many of us have pointed out that actually we have to do a lot of the same type of management. No one is saying huskies are not beautiful, wonderful dogs. All I and others want to know is what it is about them that makes them so unique, so much smarter and thus by association their owners, because that is exactly what seems to be being inferred!
> 
> I know which side of the debate should be feeling insulted :confused1: but given the opportunity to extol the virtues of your breed you go getting all indignant instead.
> 
> SB/L&M have listed many other dogs that share the individual traits of huskies and you rightly point out that huskies might be the only dog that has all those particular traits, but I am sure there are many other dogs that have a particular trait 'set' unique to that breed but shared individually with others and indeed with other species.


Nope, no patronisation whatsoever

.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have a question. As far as mere mortals are concerned the breed is Husky or Siberian Husky if you want to be pedantic. When did they start being called Sibes or is this just an elitist name used by the husky nerds (not an insult, we are all dog nerds)


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I was answering a question. I always thought it was called selective disobedience by the way?
> 
> Perhaps you need to combine that quality with everything else & then see if the Nordics possess a unique combination of qualities that makes them different to other breeds; ie less trustworthy?
> 
> .


But thats the thing, *many* breeds posses that combination of qualities or similar. (Minus the adaptation to the cold, but as smokeybear said Im not sure a specialized coat gets to count as a trait that makes a dogs recall less trustworthy.)

Listen, Im not knocking your knowledge of your breed - or any of the other owners/breed experts on here. I respect your knowledge of your breed and your experience with your breed.

My point is, if youre going to tell me how unique your breed is compared to other breeds, then that comparison has to be based on actual knowledge of other breeds.

Its one thing to say my breed is ___, ___, and ___. Its an entirely different thing to say my breed is different from any other breed out there because of ___, ____, and ____.

Take the prey drive example. Do sibes have prey drive? Sure. Do they have an exceptional prey drive unseen in other breeds? Heck no. 
Or stubborness (that for arguments sake well call an independent nature). I give you the entire scent-hound group. Many of which are also dogs who are bred to run and run and run. Do you know how much ground coonhounds can cover in one night?
High pain tolerance? Pitbull. Hands down. 
And on and on and on....


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I have a question. As far as mere mortals are concerned the breed is Husky or Siberian Husky if you want to be pedantic. When did they start being called Sibes or is this just an elitist name used by the husky nerds (not an insult, we are all dog nerds)


I think its just a shortening of it, a bit like Labs for Labrador?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> Again, haven't read all the replies, but this thread has got me thinking, so I've done the best I can to research certain characteristics usually cited as inherently Husky or Mal...
> 
> "They're that much more primitive"
> Dogguide.net/blog/2007/09/most-ancient-breed-the-genetics
> ...


So because I retaliate to sarcasm and jibes by certain people, who incidently this isn't a one off with, Im the bad person, in spite of doing several perfectly polite posts with as much information as I can give.

Certain people mainly the ones who come on and started the sarcasm in the first place, can be obnoxious, downright rude, inflammatory and talk to new members coming on and genuinely asking for help like dirt, and put them down
not one offs either regularly, and because of who they are and part of the circle
and have their buddies to dish out the likes and join in, that's completely fine they can do it.

In all the posts I have done Ive blown up what on less then a handful of threads. most if not all of which have been threads like these, about my own breeds, I have owned for over 25 years, worked in rescue and are passionate about. Always in response to digs and wind ups by the same people usually too.

Like I said at least Im upfront and will be honest in what I say, and not do it in a underhand way with digs and sly remarks like many. If that makes me a bad person then so be it. There are people on the forum I admire and respect,
there are ones that I don't much like. more specifically they bullying ways and the way they speak to people genuinely wanting help especially, difference is Im not underhand about the ones I don't like and if they want to have a dig then they should expect it back.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

This is getting silly now. It's obvious my question won't be answered, and while I appreciate some are attempting to explain what is so 'unique' about their breed, they're missing the point entirely because they're not unique qualities at all otherwise the majority of us here would not experience or relate to what is being said with our own dogs!

As for one of these unique qualities being a _"Bushy tail he can curl around his nose to warm his breath while sleeping"_

You have not seen a Hovawart's tail! ( which wouldn't be surprising as no one has seen a Hovawart! ) I'm guessing they could win a 'who has the biggest, bushiest, tail' competition hands down!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

To be honest I have no idea why people who don't own the breed care what those who do do with them.

If the breed club, breeders with decades of experience with lots of their own and others dogs and those who work in rescue and have also owned them for decades suggest they are not let of the lead, it must be for a pretty good reason.
I know how those with northern dogs on this thread feel, I've been told I'm wrong in things I know about my breed and dogs in general because some expert or other disagrees.

I wouldn't set any store on the ranks of intelligent dogs, roughs always come in the middle and nowhere near the top because they think independently and won't always do mundane tricks if they don't want to and they won't do things blindly, you can't get them to do things if they perceive a danger. They are also intuitive with their family, but there is no measure of that. So I believe sibes can come off worse on these lists for those kind of reasons too.

If I was to get a sibe I would follow the advice of the breed club and those experienced with owning them.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> To be honest I have no idea why people who don't own the breed care what those who do do with them.
> 
> If the breed club, breeders with decades of experience with lots of their own and others dogs and those who work in rescue and have also owned them for decades suggest they are not let of the lead, it must be for a pretty good reason.
> I know how those with northern dogs on this thread feel, I've been told I'm wrong in things I know about my breed and dogs in general because some expert or other disagrees.
> ...


Because those who own them are arguing their dogs are somehow unique and unlike any other breed in the world! A few of us are simply offering up comparisons, that actually they're really not.

Again, the whole off lead thing is more an owner issue I feel than a breed issue.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Thick, bushy, tail AND prey drive! That's why he's stalking Ty in this pic unfortunately 

That picture actually really doesn't o his tail justice. It's enormous and we compare it to a snake coiling around your hand!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Not one person has chastised anyone for keeping their dog on lead have they?
> I know Ive said on several occasions that Im not questioning individual dog owners choices, that folks know their own dogs best, and that personally I think most dogs I see off lead have no business being off lead. Personally I wish MORE people kept their dogs on lead.
> 
> What the discussion is about (in my mind) is that northern breeds are or are not a unique breed completely different than any other breed known to man that makes teaching them recall a completely different endeavor than anyone else has ever experienced.


Not directly chastised, but it has been implied in more than several posts that keeping them on a lead could be detrimental to their mental health, could result in increased aggression etc.

Every breed is unique. I don't believe anyone has denied that you cannot train a Husky (or similar) to recall. Or that they are magically different from every other breed. From what I gather as an outsider, their combination of breed traits makes them potentially more difficult to manage off lead, therefore a lot of sensible owners keep them on a lead unless in a secure area. Yes lot's of breeds fall into this category but I guess the Husky community is more proactive about it - big deal?

So we've established that Huskies share similar traits with many other breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog when you strip them back to the bare basics. So where are the non Husky owner debaters going with this? what do they suggest? that all Husky owners should take a less proactive approach with letting dogs off the lead? I just don't see where this discussion is going. The point has been made and this thread ain't going anywhere.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Gosh what a sad thread. I've never owned a Husky or a Mal but if I were going to I would take advice of breed clubs and experienced owners - and of course the rescue I would no doubt use. I wouldn't be taking advice from people who can't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible to train recall but from those who have actually worked and lived with the breed. They might not be able to put into words exactly why recall is such a problem but that doesn't mean they are wrong. Is it really necessary to pick their breed to bits :sad: 

Perhaps those of us who really want to understand the breed and what they are like to live with and train should offer to foster one for breed rescue then come and report back in a years time. I'd be very interested to hear how many are running around the park off lead.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Now I am NOT saying to disregard what breed clubs are saying or people who have owned then for XYT amount of years are saying, BUT I do think they should be taken as guidelines rather than rigid rules! Look at how many 'experienced' people of breeds (not on this forum before people become unintentionally offended!) still use the pack theory, or dominance theory! 

If a breed club told you to use that sort of training, would you? Probably not. You'd probably, listen, nod, and then consider it before finding out what was best for YOUR dog. Just because someone is part of a breed club or has years experience doesn't necessarily mean they are the best, they may have just had years to practice what maybe the wrong thing.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Because those who own them are arguing their dogs are somehow unique and unlike any other breed in the world! A few of us are simply offering up comparisons, that actually they're really not.
> 
> Again, the whole off lead thing is more an owner issue I feel than a breed issue.


But they are unique, no other breeds are like them.

Likewise other breeds are unique too, why do people get so offended when others may suggest a breed has things that combined make them different to others, after all that's why we are attracted to certain breeds.

Anyway I won't be drawn into this vortex.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Why is it threads about staffies and and sled dogs always seems to bring out the worst in people?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> Because those who own them are arguing their dogs are somehow unique and unlike any other breed in the world! A few of us are simply offering up comparisons, that actually they're really not.
> 
> Again, the whole off lead thing is more an owner issue I feel than a breed issue.


Ummm....last time I checked, every dog breed was unique. Isn't that the point of different breeds?

The off lead thing is your opinion as someone who has never owned nor dealt with such a breed. To make a blanket statement about it "being an owner thing" with limited knowledge of the breed nor the people that own them is very presumptuous.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> Because those who own them are arguing their dogs are somehow unique and unlike any other breed in the world! A few of us are simply offering up comparisons, that actually they're really not.
> 
> Again, the whole off lead thing is more an owner issue I feel than a breed issue.


IYO.

I hope anyone reading this thread & looking for a Siberian husky puppy will please contact the SHCGB & seek out the advice of reputable breeders who know the breed inside out. The welfare situation for the breed has reached crisis point, mainly due to the fact people didn't do their homework when buying a Siberian husky puppy.

.

.

.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Margelli said:


> Now I am NOT saying to disregard what breed clubs are saying or people who have owned then for XYT amount of years are saying, BUT I do think they should be taken as guidelines rather than rigid rules! Look at how many 'experienced' people of breeds (not on this forum before people become unintentionally offended!) still use the pack theory, or dominance theory!
> 
> If a breed club told you to use that sort of training, would you? Probably not. You'd probably, listen, nod, and then consider it before finding out what was best for YOUR dog. Just because someone is part of a breed club or has years experience doesn't necessarily mean they are the best, they may have just had years to practice what maybe the wrong thing.


Exactly this!!

When I first got Cash and phoned a breeder and member of the Hovawart Club for advice I was told I 'must' dominate him and 'enforce' all commands. I should not give in to him and ignore every whine and/or attention seeking behaviour. I was basically told how 'silly' I was for getting him as I would 'pay the price' further down the line....

What did I do? I just said thanks for the advice and hung up. Never applied any of it to Cash.

Just because someone has experience with a breed does not make them an expert on YOUR _individual_ dog!


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

labradrk said:


> Not directly chastised, but it has been implied in more than several posts that keeping them on a lead could be detrimental to their mental health, could result in increased aggression etc.
> 
> Every breed is unique. I don't believe anyone has denied that you cannot train a Husky (or similar) to recall. Or that they are magically different from every other breed. From what I gather as an outsider, their combination of breed traits makes them potentially more difficult to manage off lead, therefore a lot of sensible owners keep them on a lead unless in a secure area. Yes lot's of breeds fall into this category but I guess the Husky community is more proactive about it - big deal?
> 
> So we've established that Huskies share similar traits with many other breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog when you strip them back to the bare basics. So where are the non Husky owner debaters going with this? what do they suggest? that all Husky owners should take a less proactive approach with letting dogs off the lead? I just don't see where this discussion is going. The point has been made and this thread ain't going anywhere.


Well for me the discussion is interesting because we get to share information. Not only has a lot of information about northern breeds been shared, but about many other breeds as well. Aside from the few issues Ive basically seen this thread as mostly a discussion, and I like talking dogs - hence why I am on a dog forum 

Im not suggesting anything really. Does there need to be a suggestion? 
Well, okay, I am suggesting that perhaps huskies are not unique in their behavior, but that doesnt mean I think they all need to go off leash now.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

labradrk said:


> Ummm....last time I checked, every dog breed was unique. Isn't that the point of different breeds?
> 
> The off lead thing is your opinion as someone who has never owned nor dealt with such a breed. To make a blanket statement about it "being an owner thing" with limited knowledge of the breed nor the people that own them is very presumptuous.


That's my opinion based on what has been said here already, that they CAN and indeed are trained off lead in some instances. So to me, there are two clear types of owners - those that follow the 'rules' diligently and fear the worst should they sway from them. And those who 'risk' it and end up with a dog that has a decent recall with heaps load of on-going work. No one here has said any one type of owner is irresponsible or living with miserable dogs....bar some owners of the breed themselves who view anyone deviating from the 'rules' as irresponsible.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> Exactly this!!
> 
> When I first got Cash and phoned a breeder and member of the Hovawart Club for advice I was told I 'must' dominate him and 'enforce' all commands. I should not give in to him and ignore every whine and/or attention seeking behaviour. I was basically told how 'silly' I was for getting him as I would 'pay the price' further down the line....
> 
> ...


I had a fun discussion at a dog show once with a sighthound breeder - borzoi. She was telling me emphatically that you can NOT clicker train a sighthound. Nope, cant be done, dont try it, youre wasting your time.... And that I didnt know what I was talking about because *she* had over 40 years experience with the breed and I didnt even own one.
Meanwhile my friend is in the obedience ring with her clicker trained whippet, my other friend is winning BOB with her greyhound - also clicker trained, and bred by one of the top GH breeders in the country who *gasp* also clicker trains. 
It was a surreal and funny moment


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

So is the consensus of this thread that all breed clubs, breed standards and breed rescues are rubbish, don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored at all costs


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So is the consensus of this thread that all breed clubs, breed standards and breed rescues are rubbish, don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored at all costs


No.

There is no consensus on this thread 

Thats why its still going


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So is the consensus of this thread that all breed clubs, breed standards and breed rescues are rubbish, don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored at all costs


Er, Nope. It's not mine anyway? Where did you get that? :confused1:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So is the consensus of this thread that all breed clubs, breed standards and breed rescues are rubbish, don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored at all costs


Looks like it

.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So is the consensus of this thread that all breed clubs, breed standards and breed rescues are rubbish, don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored at all costs


Nope. But that every dog is an individual and therefore what is said should be taken into consideration, but is not the be all and end all. I know personally for me, I have taken little bits here and there from more experienced breeders/owners but for the most part we do that works for us regardless of what is recommended by those more experienced or 'in the know'.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

The concensus seem to be: 

HUSKIES, THEY CAN'T GO OFFLEAD. YES THEY CAN. NO THE CAN'T, MAYBE I DON'T KNOW.

THEY'RE ANCIENT, NO THEY'RE NOT, THEY'RE DIFFERENT, NOT REALLY.

THEY'RE BEHAVIOURALLY DIFFERENT. NO THEY'RE NOT. YES THEY ARE. THEY'RE SPECIAL. THEY'RE JUST LIKE OTHER DOGS.

BREED CLUBS, THEY'RE THE BEST, THEY'RE MIGHT NOT BE, MAYBE ITS DOWN TO THE OWNER.

SOMEONE HAS AN OPINION, SO DOES SOMEONE ELSE. SOMEONE SHARES AN EXPERIENCE, SO DOES SOMEONE ELSE. 

:closedeyes:

Rinse and repeat.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

FWIW, I love hearing people talk about their breeds and share their breeds traits.

But if Im talking to a husky owner and they start going on about their dogs amazing prey drive, I think its fair game to ask said owner if theyre familiar with oh.... IDK, a belgian malinois? Maybe a working line GSD? Or maybe Ill just ask them if theyve ever been to a terrier trial, a barn hunt, lure coursing?

If a husky owner starts telling me about their breeds unique ability to survive in the wild unaided by man, I think its fair game to tell Lunars story, or the countless other feral dog situations Im personally familiar with.

Its all about perspective


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> *Er except mine......*. :lol:
> 
> Surely the survival thing is not just a breed thing but a individual dog thing? I know an Aussie Shep X who would do just fine if kicked out of his house, and probably provide for his collie X Mrs too..... there must be northern breed dogs who'd just locate the nearest human rather than hunt for survival......


Ah but your Ginger nutcase is likely diluted with a hefty dose of Rhodesian Whimpback.:scared:.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So is the consensus of this thread that all breed clubs, breed standards and breed rescues are rubbish, don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored at all costs


I think the consensus is that opinions are like a******e, everyone has one


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Ah but your Ginger nutcase is likely diluted with a hefty dose of Rhodesian Whimpback.:scared:.


Ahhh yes..... them Lion hunters.... wimps!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ahhh yes..... them Lion hunters.... wimps!!


Like Princess and the Pea when it comes to lying down etc .


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

stuaz said:


> I think the consensus is that opinions are like a******e, everyone has one


But unlike arseholes, opinions should be thoroughly examined  (Yes, shamelessly stolen from Mr. Minchin.)

What is wrong with examining an opinion and maybe even amending it?

The "experts" I respect - in any field - are those who are constantly seeking to learn and grow and who are not stuck in an "I know it all already" mindset.

A dear friend of mine is one of the top breeders in this country. Very much an expert in her breed. But she's constantly learning and willing to try new things, and because of this, her dogs end up doing things that the "experts" said the breed just doesn't do.

She is a trailblazer in her breed. Thank goodness for people like her, no?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Like Princess and the Pea when it comes to lying down etc .


Most definitely---- do you get the "hover" (the new version of sit) if its wet? or cold?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Most definitely---- do you get the "hover" (the new version of sit) if its wet? or cold?


Yup if the floor is wet / too hard / too cold / deemed otherwise unsuitable :lol:.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> But unlike arseholes, opinions should be thoroughly examined  (Yes, shamelessly stolen from Mr. Minchin.)
> 
> What is wrong with examining an opinion and maybe even amending it?
> 
> ...


I have no issue with opinions, I was merely in a rather sarcastic way saying that everyone will have a view on this and really (In my view) no one is really truly right. Do thin

I imagine in X years times people will have changed there mind and Huskies will be allowed of leashes and the fact that they weren't allowed will be laughed at.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

stuaz said:


> I imagine in X years times people will have changed there mind and Huskies will be allowed of leashes and the fact that they weren't allowed will be laughed at.


Is this an applied maths problem ?

X=0

Do I get extra marks if I show my working out ?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I find it odd that some scoff at the very idea that perhaps another breed or individual dog has prey drive as high as a husky. Or would be a capable of surviving without humans. Or is as independent a thinker. Or escape artist. And so on. It's this sort of thing that I think gives people the impression some owners of the breed think they're a cut above the rest, that their dogs are sooooo difficult and special that only a very select few could possibly own them. No, they're not suitable for everyone but what breed is? 

And for what it's worth, I'd have bet on Rupert over the vast majority of Sibes I've known for surviving without humans providing food. I have absolutely no doubt he could feed himself without a problem. He was bloody smart about it! In the arctic? Oh hell no, this was a dog who needed a sweater in cold UK weather :lol:


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

diefenbaker said:


> Is this an applied maths problem ?
> 
> X=0
> 
> Do I get extra marks if I show my working out ?


I am going to presume you know what X means and you were trying to be funny, in which I will award 1 point for effort, but sadly no more, even if you do show your working


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Margelli said:


> Er, Nope. It's not mine anyway? Where did you get that? :confused1:


I got it from reading this thread and noticing that the posters who own the breed, state they have owned numerous (rather than just one lucky strike) and been involved with breed clubs/breed specific rescues seem to be the ones having their opinions largely dismissed. I don't think that would be stood for if we were discussing bull breeds or IPO by those who own or are experienced in it.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I got it from reading this thread and noticing that the posters who own the breed, state they have owned numerous (rather than just one lucky strike) and been involved with breed clubs/breed specific rescues seem to be the ones having their opinions largely dismissed. I don't think that would be stood for if we were discussing bull breeds or IPO by those who own or are experienced in it.


I don't think anyone is dismissing that sibes have high prey drives, that it's not appropriate to have them offlead just any old where... what is being disputes is that they are THE ONLY DOGS THIS APPLIES TO.. after all while someone may be an expert in northern breeds they are likely not as expert in say jrt's who often have high prey drives, who often get lots and often get stuck down rabbit holes So who is to say who has ... The sled dog owner or of the JRT owner?

Another issue, training a recall and letting a dog off lead are 2 different things I'd hope no owner of any breed would let their dog offlead without doing a mental risk assessment appropriate to their individual dog.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

moonviolet said:


> I don't think anyone is dismissing that sibes have high prey drives, that it's not appropriate to have them offlead just any old where... what is being disputes is that they are THE ONLY DOGS THIS APPLIES TO.. after all while someone may be an expert in northern breeds they are likely not as expert in say jrt's who often have high prey drives, who often get lots and often get stuck down rabbit holes So who is to say who has ... The sled dog owner or of the JRT owner?
> 
> Another issue, training a recall and letting a dog off lead are 2 different things I'd hope no owner of any breed would let their dog offlead without doing a mental risk assessment appropriate to their individual dog.


Well I must have missed the bit where the husky owners said their breed was the only one with high prey drive - I'll go and read back again just in case I missed it. By the way I've got a pointer with a very high prey drive who has to be very carefully managed off lead in safe areas only so I'm not for one minute saying the northern breeds are the only ones with high prey drive but I am prepared to acknowledge (unlike some members) that I have no experience of them or their breed traits or how the majority react in given situations so therefore I'm happy to accept the views of several well respected members who have that experience.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Well I must have missed the bit where the husky owners said their breed was the only one with high prey drive - I'll go and read back again just in case I missed it. By the way I've got a pointer with a very high prey drive who has to be very carefully managed off lead in safe areas only so I'm not for one minute saying the northern breeds are the only ones with high prey drive but I am prepared to acknowledge (unlike some members) that I have no experience of them or their breed traits or how the majority react in given situations so therefore I'm happy to accept the views of several well respected members who have that experience.


It's a two-way street though.
If one is going to ask that their experience and breed knowledge be respected, then please offer others the same courtesy when they share their own knowledge of many breeds and experience with many breeds.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> So because I retaliate to sarcasm and jibes by certain people, who incidently this isn't a one off with, Im the bad person, in spite of doing several perfectly polite posts with as much information as I can give.
> 
> Certain people mainly the ones who come on and started the sarcasm in the first place, can be obnoxious, downright rude, inflammatory and talk to new members coming on and genuinely asking for help like dirt, and put them down
> not one offs either regularly, and because of who they are and part of the circle
> ...


Did I say you were the bad guy? Did I say you and the other husky owners were the only ones throwing insults?

No, I did not.

You are and always have been, one of the members I look up to when it comes to learning about anything dog related. I therefore trusted that, of all people, you could rise above any slight and maintain your dignity. A mere mortal of a mongrel owner like me could only hope to hold a candle to your vast knowledge and experience, especially within the husky/mal breed.

And then you let yourself down.

Yes, you have posted (from what I've read - internet is being an a$$ today, in general in fact) relevant knowledge and experience about the husky/mal breeds, but airing private laundry is never tasteful and doesn't do your arguments any favours.

I can only repeat what I've already said, I mean no disrespect to you, your breed, or any husky owner.



emmaviolet said:


> To be honest I have no idea why people who don't own the breed care what those who do do with them.
> 
> If the breed club, breeders with decades of experience with lots of their own and others dogs and those who work in rescue and have also owned them for decades suggest they are not let of the lead, it must be for a pretty good reason.
> I know how those with northern dogs on this thread feel, I've been told I'm wrong in things I know about my breed and dogs in general because some expert or other disagrees.
> ...


But it was sibe owners/members that originally mentioned their intelligence!

And who's saying those who own the breed don't know what they're talking about? As I don't own the breed, I know I have no right to tell.someone who does that they don't know their own breed. All I want to know, really, is why is it that when a dog of any other breed blows a recall once (assuming the dog has a generally solid recall) it's a fluke, something that is just one of those things, but when it's a husky or Mal, that's it! The dog and the breed can never be trusted ever again...

For that matter, why would you even WANT to own a dog that is so untrustworthy in the first place?

This will be my last post on this matter. I simply can't keep up with the arguments and can't guarantee a connection even loading one page from the next.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Most definitely---- do you get the "hover" (the new version of sit) if its wet? or cold?


Oh my God I get that!.. well axel does. Maybe he's got some of that whimpback in him :confused1:


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> But it was sibe owners/members that originally mentioned their intelligence!
> 
> And who's saying those who own the breed don't know what they're talking about? As I don't own the breed, I know I have no right to tell.someone who does that they don't know their own breed. All I want to know, really, is why is it that when a dog of any other breed blows a recall once (assuming the dog has a generally solid recall) it's a fluke, something that is just one of those things, but when it's a husky or Mal, that's it! The dog and the breed can never be trusted ever again...
> 
> ...


Yes, they did mention their intelligence and I was saying that those websites you showed does not prove they are not intelligent, I said they cannot measure certain things that mean intelligence. they base it on tricks learnt or other things, but not things such as sheer craftiness, there's no measure for that!

I don't know why they would want to own them as they personally do not appeal to me as I like a low prey drive and a low desire to run off like that. I like having a breed that doesn't want to escape or scale a low fence, so I don't have a breed where those characteristics are strong. I know I adore the look of a samoyed, however the breed does not suit me because of certain characteristics.

I don't think any Sibe owner has said that other breeds cannot blow off a recall, it's just very prevalent in them. I believe that with this breed it's an exception to have one with such good recall and the rule is that they will more often then not blow off a recall.

I just don't really see why it matters really, if a breed club knows it to be true and experienced breeders do too, then so be it. It's no worry to me that people are keeping their dogs safe.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> It's a two-way street though.
> If one is going to ask that their experience and breed knowledge be respected, then please offer others the same courtesy when they share their own knowledge of many breeds and experience with many breeds.


Yes thats a fair comment, I believe in respect and consideration for others being a two way thing :thumbsup:


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> I just don't really see why it matters really, if a breed club *knows it to be true* and experienced breeders do too, then so be it. It's no worry to me that people are keeping their dogs safe.


It is not a truth, it is a theory based upon observation coupled with a consensus among Owners and Breeders. Its a valid theory though until evidence to the contrary is presented.


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## RappScallion (Sep 27, 2014)

A family member of mine owned a pack of Sib Huskies. She raced them, and showed them.

It is an indisputable fact that Sibs have a strong call of the wild in them, more so than any other breed.

I agree with others when they say ALL dogs have unique traits. But Sibs have more than their fair share, and therefore one of the most challenging breeds to own.

My family member used to show a couple of her Sibs, now that really shows (word pun) how unreliable and strong willed Sibs truly are. They look at you saying "you want me to perform like a circus monkey today"? "Na, not today". Showing a husky is no mean feat. Of course others could argue any dog or breed can be challenging to show or teach obedience. But the statistical fact you cannot get away from is the odds are more highly stacked against a Sib owner due to that all too familiar call of the wild, that Sib owners know all too well, which they respect and have to deal with.

I have many friends and family who own challenging dogs of one breed or another, but seriously, Sibs are on a completely other level. 

You do not ever own a Husky, IT IS A COMPLETE LIFESTYLE CHOICE, and they own your ass.

It would be a folly to walk a husky off lead!! Just because you want to, or someone who has never owned the breed tells you you can, please don't. Listen to the people who know the breed best.

Just my unbiased (cat owner) observation of many dog owning family members, friends and general public.

There is so much more I want to impart on this subject but I am tired and not feeling very eloquent tonight. I may revisit this subject tomorrow.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

> But if Im talking to a husky owner and they start going on about their dogs amazing prey drive, I think its fair game to ask said owner if theyre familiar with oh.... IDK, a belgian malinois? Maybe a working line GSD? Or maybe Ill just ask them if theyve ever been to a terrier trial, a barn hunt, lure coursing?


German shepherd dog. 
First bred at the end of the 19th century first exhibited in 1882, bred selectively from working sheepdogs from Rural Germany, although these didn't resemble the current version of the GSD in looks. So developed for around a 100 years now, purposely and selectively bred, and primarily a herder, ie will guard and protect sheep, without hurting them, has protective instincts, intelligent, and will show undying devotion to their masters and family. Known for trainability, used in herding, guarding, police and security work.

Mallanois Adolphe Ruel, establishment of breed standard 1891 as Belgian shepherds had no unification, breed coat type to coat type, So again herders.
Purposely developed and bred, on checking on various breed clubs etc described as having a herding and working drive, smart and willing to please, naturaly protective on another sensitive family orientated dog, devoted, likes to be your shadow, So established for around a 100 years give or take, again selectively/purpose bred, again a herder or originally but also used in other fields much as the GSD.

Siberian husky.
Dogs of the chuckchi people, of north eastern Siberia. Long history dating back several thousand years. Used as a long distance sled dog, needing little food to cover huge distances. over pack ice to the chukchi hunting grounds and back to the villages. The isolation ensured the puriety of the dogs and the chuckchis culture was the same until the middle of the 19th century.
So basically a dog whos only function was to run and pull sleds, a breed dating back to several thousand years and unchanged and not selectively bred. Still similar in looks size and characteristics today.
Temperament and personality,
Not a one man dog, friendly to all man kind, not loyal to one person.
No guarding instincts, he will not guard your home property or you.
Strong desire to run after all that's all he was originally asked to do and pull sleds.
Very independent, will not do boring repetitive training. or repeated tasks.
Keen and efficient hunter and killer, birds and small furries, have lived with cats if bought up with them, but even then many have reverted and killed cats they have lived with, so not usually recommended.
known for being an escape artist, can jump 6 foot fences, dog out and open doors.

Will not heard will kill sheep rather then heard them, unlike herders who were bred for the purpose, loves all man kind and has no protective or guarding instincts over owners or property. Doesn't enjoy being set boring repetitive tasks or training so training can be a problem, independent and certainly doesn't show undevoted loyalty and follow you around or undying devotion to their owners and family as described by the GSD and Mallanois websites I found.

So there are differences, in the way the breeds were developed, some purposely and selectively bred for traits and abilities,and really not that long established and the husky an old breed that occurred more naturally, remained unchanged and isolated for basically thousands of years, and has different things entirely in temperament and breed traits, which would have a bearing on trainability what they will and wont do and how they react to things.

Which is why some dogs have been developed and excel as gun dogs, some herders, some guarding etc. Which is maybe why you don't see huskies guarding sheep, (they would kill and eat them) retrieve dead birds ie gun dog duties, appear in huge numbers in obedience competitions, etc. because unlike other breeds who were selectively and purposely bred they weren't.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

RappScallion said:


> A family member of mine owned a pack of Sib Huskies. She raced them, and showed them.
> 
> It is an indisputable fact that Sibs have a strong call of the wild in them, more so than any other breed.
> 
> ...


What exactly is the 'call of the wild'? It sounds a little like something from a disney film.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> What exactly is the 'call of the wild'? It sounds a little like something from a disney film.


It's David Attenborough with a whistle :lol:


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## RappScallion (Sep 27, 2014)

McKenzie said:


> What exactly is the 'call of the wild'? It sounds a little like something from a disney film.





Fluffster said:


> It's David Attenborough with a whistle :lol:


With replies like that to my post, I can see why the Husky owners are feeling aggrieved on this thread.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Meh I have no opinion, I know no huskies, I've never met one, they're not a breed I know anything about or will ever own, so I have no opinion on whether they should be offlead or on.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

cbcdesign said:


> It is not a truth, it is a theory based upon observation coupled with a consensus among Owners and Breeders. Its a valid theory though until evidence to the contrary is presented.


Isnt theory basically something that is thought a possibility and will remain a possibility until it is proven?

Hasn't it actually occurred to anyone that the advice is based on experience and things that have happened ie evidence?, and also based on the majority of the Siberian husky breed and not the exceptions to the rule or the odd more docile one that may have the traits to a lesser degree rather then the normal population and type. They didn't actually come into the UK until the 1970s if memory serves me right, there wasn't so much knowledge back then as breeders and enthusiasts here were new to the breed, and with a new breed a lot of the time the knowledge is done the hard way, basically suck it and see and gather knowledge as you proceed.

In their native land the Siberians were actually left to fend and hunt for themselves part of the time, and they did return, in their own time, but in Siberia there isn't likely anything to run, them over, shoot them for worrying sheep or anything else. Unlike the UK, where one incident can be enough and that's the end.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

RappScallion said:


> With replies like that to my post, I can see why the Husky owners are feeling aggrieved on this thread.


Ok maybe the disney bit was uncalled for, but I don't understand what 'the call of the wild' is, and how it's special to huskies. Perhaps you could explain.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RappScallion said:


> With replies like that to my post, I can see why the Husky owners are feeling aggrieved on this thread.


Welcome to our world!! This lot would probably make the pope swear and have to go and do a few hail marys.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

RappScallion said:


> A family member of mine owned a pack of Sib Huskies. She raced them, and showed them.
> 
> It is an indisputable fact that Sibs have a strong call of the wild in them, *more so than any other breed.*
> 
> ...


The bolded statements are exactly the sort of thing that get the arguments going.

If you're going to say the husky is one of the most challenging breeds to own, then that implies experience with *most* breeds - enough to be able to make that comparison.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

In all fairness some of the owners of Huskies here have hardly come across in a good light either. Dismissing anyone who doesn't own the breed, scoffing at anyone who claims their dog has similar traits, and basically saying 'what the breed club says goes, no questions asked'. As one poster put it yesterday the rest of us are talking 'twaddle'


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> In all fairness some of the owners of Huskies here have hardly come across in a good light either. Dismissing anyone who doesn't own the breed, scoffing at anyone who claims their dog has similar traits, and basically saying 'what the breed club says goes, no questions asked'. As one poster put it yesterday the rest of us are talking 'twaddle'


^^^ I agree with this


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

> ouesi said:
> 
> 
> > But if Im talking to a husky owner and they start going on about their dogs amazing prey drive, I think its fair game to ask said owner if theyre familiar with oh.... IDK, a belgian malinois? Maybe a working line GSD? Or maybe Ill just ask them if theyve ever been to a terrier trial, a barn hunt, lure coursing?
> ...


Okay so now you're doing exactly what you're complaining about others doing. Looking up a breed in a dog breeds book is not the same thing as being familiar with a breed. Isn't that what you've been arguing all along?

Great, you looked up the breed history of GSD's and malligators. 
How does any of that address the questions I posed?

Prey drive - on what basis do you judge a sibe's prey drive? Compared to what? 
Have you been to a terrier trial? A barn hunt? Lure coursing?

I'm also curious about the bolded, are you suggesting that herding dogs - GSD, Malinois, rottweilers won't kill the animals they're bred to herd?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> In all fairness some of the owners of Huskies here have hardly come across in a good light either. Dismissing anyone who doesn't own the breed, scoffing at anyone who claims their dog has similar traits, and basically saying 'what the breed club says goes, no questions asked'. As one poster put it yesterday the rest of us are talking 'twaddle'


People that don't own the breed haven't been dismissed, but there is a huge difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed one. When people who have never owned a particular breed of dog are making massive assumptions about a breed, then yes it is going to get the owners of said breeds' backs up. Especially when some of the people making the assumptions are purposely being inflammatory and/or being overly patronizing and sarcastic, as a great number of posts have been.

I don't see any scoffing at people who claim their dog has similar traits. We all know that dogs of all breeds bog off, kill things, ignore their owners. Great, big deal, but it still doesn't mean all breeds are created equal; all dogs by sheer definition are unique. So that point is kind of irrelevant.

Who said what the breed clubs says goes? but yes, most sensible people probably would value the opinion of the people behind the breed club(s) over strangers on the internet whom have zero experience of dealing with that type of dog. That doesn't mean you have to agree with ALL of their ethos or EVERY member.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

labradrk said:


> People that don't own the breed haven't been dismissed, but there is a huge difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed one. When people who have never owned a particular breed of dog are making massive assumptions about a breed, then yes it is going to get the owners of said breeds' backs up. Especially when some of the people making the assumptions are purposely being inflammatory and/or being overly patronizing and sarcastic, as a great number of posts have been.
> 
> I don't see any scoffing at people who claim their dog has similar traits. We all know that dogs of all breeds bog off, kill things, ignore their owners. Great, big deal, but it still doesn't mean all breeds are created equal; all dogs by sheer definition are unique. So that point is kind of irrelevant.
> 
> Who said what the breed clubs says goes? but yes, most sensible people probably would value the opinion of the people behind the breed club(s) over strangers on the internet whom have zero experience of dealing with that type of dog. That doesn't mean you have to agree with ALL of their ethos or EVERY member.


You haven't read the same posts I have then :huh:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> The Siberian has all these things combined.
> 
> I know there are, but I'm talking about great danes /Siberian huskies.
> 
> ...


Yep I do think that phenotype matters (ie what a dog looks like) but not as much as genotype.

You have moved the goalposts, you have now been more specific than in your original post where you merely stated that you believed huskies are better hunters PER SE than Great Danes, I would dispute that.

Of course they would be better in the ARCTIC than GD, just as Salukis would be better in the desert than a Husky.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So is the consensus of this thread that all breed clubs, breed standards and breed rescues are rubbish, don't know what they are talking about and should be ignored at all costs


Breed Clubs are formed and staffed by people all of whom have varying degrees of skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience; ranging from the prehistoric to the ultra modern; from the disciples of Cesar to the apostles of Karen Pryor.

The advice that any one person may get from any one of those members will vary, IME, depending on numerous factors.

I am sure many of us on this thread can quote somewhat less than constructive, factual or even empathic responses from the inhabitants of breed club committees.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Okay so now you're doing exactly what you're complaining about others doing. Looking up a breed in a dog breeds book is not the same thing as being familiar with a breed. Isn't that what you've been arguing all along?


No not been saying that at all the opposite in fact, posts and information is from both over 20 nearly 25 years personal experience, including my own friends and associates in the breed and welfare/rescue, and also the breed club information, I even posted a copy and paste I believe and maybe a link too for Siberian husky club great Britain. I didn't accuse any one of looking up anything, in fact as long as it is a totally reliable and accurate source on breed information I would encourage it. How do you think people do breed research when getting a dog assuming they bother, in the first place?

You are the one that seems to want to prove how much authority and experience you have on all on all breeds or elude to want to give the impression. Maybe it isn't all from personal experience as you would like us to believe and you got it out of books? If you did however, you obviously haven't been looking at accurate sources as far as the Siberian goes.


> Great, you looked up the breed history of GSD's and malligators.
> How does any of that address the questions I posed?


I looked up breed history, character and traits, training ability etc on the specific breed club websites, Unfortuanately unlike yourself I haven't had personal experience with as so many breeds as you claim to have, also they are not my breed, and for the sake of accuracy as I said I looked it up on the breed clubs sites were one would expect the information to be accurate, After all if the breed clubs don't know their breed then there is no hope is there?
Wasn't specifically to do with your question don't flatter yourself.

This is what you said and I quoted:-
But if Im talking to a husky owner and they start going on about their dogs amazing prey drive, I think its fair game to ask said owner if theyre familiar with oh.... IDK, a belgian malinois? Maybe a working line GSD? Or maybe Ill just ask them if theyve ever been to a terrier trial, a barn hunt, lure coursing?

Im a Husky owner, Ive been going on about their prey drive you said its fair game to ask if familiar with other breeds, two of which I went off to research from the breed club. You are the one that keeps saying Sibes are no different to other breeds, so I thought I would compare, which is what I did and posted it, and they don't look that much the same to me.


> Prey drive - on what basis do you judge a sibe's prey drive? Compared to what?
> Have you been to a terrier trial? A barn hunt? Lure coursing?


Didn't say I had compared it did I? Like Ive been saying all along its based on the Siberian himself, what they are like, living with them, friends and associates dogs, a good number of rescue dogs, a mentor and friend who was one of the first to have them in the country, oh and the breed club information of course. I and others know what they are like, capable of and what they do, why should I need to compare, or know exactly what over breeds do and don't , I don't own other breeds do I. I never said they were unique or other breeds didn't have prey drive.


> I'm also curious about the bolded, are you suggesting that herding dogs - GSD, Malinois, rottweilers won't kill the animals they're bred to herd?


Obviously you will get rouge dogs from time to time who will kill and injure sheep. Clues in the name herder, they herd and protect, not injure and kill, bit pointless having a herder if they have killed all the sheep and there are none left to herd. Not exactly rocket science.

Samoyeds by the way are originally reindeer herders although did some sled work, Ive had one of them and know a few and they haven't got the same prey drive and are much different to huskies and Mals, a lot easier in fact.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> No not been saying that at all the opposite in fact, posts and information is from both over 20 nearly 25 years personal experience, including my own friends and associates in the breed and welfare/rescue, and also the breed club information, I even posted a copy and paste I believe and maybe a link too for Siberian husky club great Britain. I didn't accuse any one of looking up anything, in fact as long as it is a totally reliable and accurate source on breed information I would encourage it. How do you think people do breed research when getting a dog assuming they bother, in the first place?


Yeah, thats not what Im saying...
You want people to respect your breed knowledge based on your experience with the breed.
But when I share my experience with prey drive, I dont get the same respect.



Sled dog hotel said:


> You are the one that seems to want to prove how much authority and experience you have on all on all breeds or elude to want to give the impression. Maybe it isn't all from personal experience as you would like us to believe and you got it out of books? If you did however, you obviously haven't been looking at accurate sources as far as the Siberian goes.
> 
> I looked up breed history, character and traits, training ability etc on the specific breed club websites, Unfortuanately unlike yourself I haven't had personal experience with as so many breeds as you claim to have, also they are not my breed, and for the sake of accuracy as I said I looked it up on the breed clubs sites were one would expect the information to be accurate, After all if the breed clubs don't know their breed then there is no hope is there?
> Wasn't specifically to do with your question don't flatter yourself.


Im not trying to prove anything. I dont have to, my posts speak for themselves. As do yours.



Sled dog hotel said:


> This is what you said and I quoted:-
> But if Im talking to a husky owner and they start going on about their dogs amazing prey drive, I think its fair game to ask said owner if theyre familiar with oh.... IDK, a belgian malinois? Maybe a working line GSD? Or maybe Ill just ask them if theyve ever been to a terrier trial, a barn hunt, lure coursing?
> 
> Im a Husky owner, Ive been going on about their prey drive you said its fair game to ask if familiar with other breeds, two of which I went off to research from the breed club. You are the one that keeps saying Sibes are no different to other breeds, so I thought I would compare, which is what I did and posted it, and they don't look that much the same to me.


So thats a no on familiarity with other breeds? Thats a no on the terrier trials, barn hunts, and lure coursing?



Sled dog hotel said:


> Didn't say I had compared it did I?


Saying a breed has ____ trait is an implied comparison. If I say OMG my great danes shed so much!!!, youre going to say Pfft, let me tell you about shedding. And you would be right. I may think my danes shed like crazy, but compared to a sibe, their shedding is minimal. Thats the perspective I was talking about.
If the only breed I have experience with is a few danes and maybe a lab or two, my concept of shedding is going to be very different than a sibe owners concept of shedding.



Sled dog hotel said:


> Obviously you will get rouge dogs from time to time who will kill and injure sheep. Clues in the name herder, they herd and protect, not injure and kill, bit pointless having a herder if they have killed all the sheep and there are none left to herd. Not exactly rocket science.


Again, youre basing your statement off little experience with the breeds. As someone so eloquently put it if you dont know sibes dont talk or something? I could say the same here about not knowing herding/working breeds. But I wont. 
Instead Ill just add some information for anyone interested in a herding dog. Herding is part of the predatory sequence - key word = predatory. Unless properly channeled, that predatory sequence very often will complete to the kill. GSDs very easily can and do end up killing livestock. From pygmy goats to horses. Happens all the time.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Grrrrrrrrrrr....... Please leave all this 'I know better than you rubbish!' and this is to ALL the ones who have never even owned the breed!!! you are only out to 'try' and make yourselves look good!..... thats ALL I'm going to say, I hate PF sometimes, especially when I see a very respected and 'most helpful' member being hounded


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> Grrrrrrrrrrr....... Please leave all this 'I know better than you rubbish!' and this is to ALL the ones who have never even owned the breed!!! you are only out to 'try' and make yourselves look good!..... thats ALL I'm going to say, I hate PF sometimes, especially when I see a very respected and 'most helpful' member being hounded


I can assure you I'm most definitely not out to try and 'make myself look good'.

Before the latter half of this thread descended into immature jibes, sarcasm and random members coming in to defend other members, this was a civilised and informative debate!


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> I can assure you I'm most definitely not out to try and 'make myself look good'.
> 
> Before the latter half of this thread descended into immature jibes, sarcasm and random members coming in to defend other members, this was a civilised and informative debate!


I can assure you, you are definitely not who I refer too 

ETA: I feel sad in that I feel I have gone against what I state in my signature.....I HATE the thought I could be seen seen as 'judgmental'..... but I also cant stop myself saying something I feel is I feel is 'Unjust'...hate injustice!!! full stop


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

This thread has been let off the leash! It is running wild, and several instances of savage prey drive have been seen!!

(going to curl up now with a bushy tail over my nose - nighty-night folks


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Yeah, thats not what Im saying...
> You want people to respect your breed knowledge based on your experience with the breed.
> But when I share my experience with prey drive, I dont get the same respect.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter what I write, even if I opened an artery wrote it in blood on vellum and personally sent it.

FYI I know herding is harnessed predatory drive, that's the difference you cant harness a huskys he will kill in the blink of an eye if he is able.

Hopefully there are some who will find it of interest. Out of here now.
What could have been an informative thread for anyone thinking of getting a Siberian, or one that would have made people think instead of making a mistake and another one ending up homeless, adding to the welfare crisis has been lost.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Not seen anyone being hounded  And I'm afraid I don't think anyone is so knowledgeable that their opinions should never, ever under any circumstances be questioned. There is not one single person who has nothing left to learn. I have no desire to make myself look good, I simply don't like the fact there are those who seem to scoff at the idea that another breed or individual of non husky persuasion may well present the same challenges a husky does. We can't know what a husky is like if we don't own one? Well the same holds true the other way too I'm afraid.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

To be fair i wouldn't look at a thread called " Malamute Off Lead!" if i was looking for information about owning a sibe. I can't imagine many others would either


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2014)

MyMillie said:


> Grrrrrrrrrrr....... Please leave all this 'I know better than you rubbish!' and this is to ALL the ones who have never even owned the breed!!! you are only out to 'try' and make yourselves look good!..... thats ALL I'm going to say, I hate PF sometimes, especially when I see a very respected and 'most helpful' member being hounded


We keep conveniently forgetting that I do have some experience with Malamutes and sibes. I owned a sibeX for his entire life of 14 years. I lived with and was the only caregiver of a Malamute for 2 years, and continued to share his care for many more years. I had roommates who had sibes, lived with them in the same home and shared care for the dogs.

I dont for one second purport to be a sibe breed expert, however, nor do I think I have nothing new to learn. I enjoy discussing my experiences and hearing about others experiences because that is one of many ways I further my knowledge.

Maybe thats the disconnect in the conversation. Im not competing with anyone about who knows more, who knows best, who looks best. Im just talking dogs. I have these sorts of conversations all the time with my dog friends... Its a conversation, not a competition to me. Oh well....


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> To be fair i wouldn't look at a thread called " Malamute Off Lead!" if i was looking for information about owning a sibe. I can't imagine many others would either


Here we go the Flying monkeys are starting to circle.:scared:


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Here we go the Flying monkeys are starting to circle.:scared:


Eeerrrm, Wonder why I 'Feel' you are right!.... its just in my gut!! I dont know you from Adam SDH, but I 'Know' my gut.... and that is what I will always go by


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

And so we descend to name calling rather than actual discussion. Sounds about right.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Here we go the Flying monkeys are starting to circle.:scared:


If your goal is to inform people and prevent more sibes getting into rescue then use your energy to make the flipping thread.

"Things you need to know before getting a Siberian Husky" would be an appropriate title.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

moonviolet said:


> To be fair i wouldn't look at a thread called " Malamute Off Lead!" if i was looking for information about owning a sibe. I can't imagine many others would either


You'd be surprised though. I know a guy who wrote a very informative pointer blog for some time and he was able to check via google how most people found their way to him - it was by typing "pointer running off" into their search engine.

I don't think anyone is so knowledgeable that their opinions should never be questioned (although there are one or two on here who very rarely get questioned I've noticed unless by some innocent newbie who soon gets put straight) but I do think some people are knowledgeable enough about a breed they have owned and been involved with for years that they warrant respect rather than point scoring which is not very attractive IMO.

I for one would like to thank the husky/mal owners for taking the time to provide some very detailed information much of which I didn't know so I've learnt something new today


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Here we go the Flying monkeys are starting to circle.:scared:


And the real insults appear :



MyMillie said:


> Eeerrrm, Wonder why I 'Feel' you are right!.... its just in my gut!! I dont know you from Adam SDH, but I 'Know' my gut.... and that is what I will always go by


You probably need to get your guts seen to love


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I for one would like to thank the husky/mal owners for taking the time to provide some very detailed information much of which I didn't know so I've learnt something new today


Your post is timestamped 12:05AM. Are you sure you didn't learn it yesterday ? And more to the point why am I still up ?


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Oooo.... this thread just TOTALLY backs up what I feel about 'certain' members on here in the past couple of years or so, my 'gut instinct' is intact...I'm grateful for this  phew!.... some are so toxic


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> And so we descend to name calling rather than actual discussion. Sounds about right.


Well Ive tried doing informative posts, explaining the best I can and they are still not good enough and being picked to pieces and met with sarcasm and digs, so you know the old saying monkey see monkey do. Flying ones that is.



moonviolet said:


> If your goal is to inform people and prevent more sibes getting into rescue then use your energy to make the flipping thread.
> 
> "Things you need to know before getting a Siberian Husky" would be an appropriate title.


Have been, and what start another Siberian husky thread to be ridiculed and pulled to pieces, don't think so.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

have not read this thread have no idea what is going on. Will read it shortly..closed for now


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm on page 21 and it is getting personal instead of a debate, therefore it will remain closed. If I get a chance to finish reading it at work I will do so.


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