# Transitioning a cat with IBD to raw - a diary.



## Forester

With IBD sadly becoming increasingly common in cats, and raw feeding often recommended as a " solution" I thought it might be useful to create a thread detailing the transition of one IBD sufferer to raw .

Many longstanding forum members will be aware that my Dylan has IBD. Despite the best efforts of a whole host of vets , including the specialists from Langford, Dylan remains a regular vomiter.

My vet has approved that I try Dylan with a completely raw diet but I know that this is not going to be a simple transition. After all, nothing with IBD sufferers is ever simple. I plan to detail our progress, and setbacks, in the hope that someone else may be able to learn from our experiences.

29/5/17
Dylan is vomiting approximately 3 times weekly. Medication wise he is on 1mg prednisolone twice daily ( he would vomit most days without this ) as well as 5mg cetirizine daily. The cetirizine was instigated , with my vet's approval, because there is some evidence that this can help with eosinophilic inflammation which Dylan has. He also has neutrophilic and lymphoplasmacytic inflammation as well as fibrosis. I'm also giving Dylan 2 capsules per day of http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/sh...otic-balance-ultimate-flora-capsules-60005098. This is recommended on the Raw for IBD Fb site.

Dylan weighs 4.8kg. He is currently eating James Wellbeloved Lamb pouches so I feel that lamb is probably the best protein to start introducing raw. My logic is that I want to make all changes as gradually as possibly because Dylan reacts badly to *any *change.

I start by adding a tiny ( initially approx. 3g ) chunk of raw lamb leg to 2 of Dylan's meals for a couple of days. I then add the chunks to 4 meals before starting to increase the size of the chunks.

14/6/17
I've worked Dylan up to eating 15g - 20g lamb leg daily. I know that it is safe to feed up to 15% of his diet " unbalanced". He can eat anything up to 420g wet food in a day but I believe that for his weight a normal raw ration would be approx. 150g. I therefore feel that I can safely go up to approx. 22g per day without needing to add supplements to balance. The level of his vomiting remains the same - 3 times per week.

15/6/17
I receive a sample of EZcomplete premix from the USA.
http://www.foodfurlife.com/store/p3/EZComplete_Fur_Cats_-_130_Servings.html
This premix has been developed specifically for cats with IBD, although it is appropriate for most cats, and will allow me to increase Dylan's proportion of raw/wet.

Instructions tell me to mix the premix with the correct amount of meat to make the food complete, and then introduce it very gradually. I therefore drop the amount of raw lamb I'm feeding to 10g per day, then increase very slowly.

3/7/17
Dylan's vomiting has increased as I've increased the raw food. He's either been sick, or looked nauseous, 5 times in the last 5 days. I contact the makers of the premix who are the founders of the Raw for IBD Fb group for advice. One of them advises me to change the protein I'm feeding. It seems that lamb, as well as other red meats, is notorious for causing vomiting. I'm advised to use chicken, turkey, rabbit or pork. I feel that it is highly likely that Dylan has a problem with poultry so I choose pork- reducing the quantity back down to approx. 10g daily as this is a new protein and must be introduced slowly.


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## Forester

6/7/17
Dylan is still vomiting daily on JWB lamb plus about 10g raw pork with the EZcomplete premix added. He wasn't this bad before I introduced the premix ( even on lamb) so I guess that the premix must be setting him off. I contact Foodfurlife via the Raw for IBD Fb page and am advised to discontinue the premix for now. We're back to square one. I don't know why I am surprised setbacks like this have happened more times than I care to remember.

I'm advised to buy collagen and to start Dylan on this. The idea is that it should help to start some healing in his gut. I would have tried him with bone broth, as made by our very own @lorilu but I know that he won't eat it. I've tried in the past and he won't go within 4 feet of it. I order
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Lake...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8QRKCDZ9HB01ZNA6T4YW
We continue with JWB lamb plus 10g pork loin.

13/7/17

A week has passed since I dropped the premix and have been feeding just JWB lamb and slowly increasing amounts of pork. We're currently at about 15g. Dylan has only been sick twice since 6th July so I'm pretty confident that he was reacting to something in the premix. The collagen arrives, along with mini measuring spoons and a small weight scale. It is looking increasingly as though I might have to make my own raw - feeling somewhat apprehensive as this is my precious boy that I'm experimenting with. There again what choice do I have ? I can't just watch him slowly get worse and do nothing.

I try Dylan with a tiny amount of the collagen sprinkled onto his wet food. He is not impressed and takes an hour to eat what would usually be snaffled in 20 seconds.


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## urbantigers

Mosi doesn't get on too well with lamb and I have read that it's maybe not the best one to start with due to it being a ''warm'' meat or something! Can be inflammatory. (May be talking nonsense here!). Mosi does fine on raw turkey and pork with a bit of chicken (he doesn't do chunks and not easy to get chicken mince). I've had another go with lamb now and he seems to be tolerating it, at least well enough to add it now and again for variety. 

Mosi doesn't have diagnosed IBD but he has had digestive problems (diarrhoea rather than vomiting). I add Felini and a small amount of puréed pumpkin once a day.


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## Pepperpots

Mine does best with turkey and pork, with kangaroo for red meat. You can buy ground raw turkey carcasses, from dog food sites, which give you the bone percentage (10% I think) which makes it really easy to calculate the bone they need to have. I just froze it in small 10g balls.

Mine can't tolerate any premix or ready made raw.
He can have one brand of cat food - Animonda vom Feinstein for neutered cats, which is just turkey, low fat and low offal. Someone here recommended it and it's been fantastic.

Good luck!


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## Forester

Thanks @urbantigers and @Pepperpots for your suggestions. I'm hopeful that pork may have been a good choice for Dylan. He doesn't tolerate cooked turkey so I felt that it was sensible to avoid this as a first choice protein to feed raw. If I'm honest he hasn't tolerated any cooked protein particularly well. Felini is also definitely out. When I tried him with that it was sprayed across the kitchen.

I've heard lamb described as a " warm" meat so you are not alone urbantigers. I was told that rabbit is the " coolest" whatever that means.

Peperpots, may I ask what you include in your pork recipe to make it complete ?

Does anyone know whether a cat with an issue with eggs can be fed eggshell calcium. I'm not 100% sure that Dylan has a problem with eggs but it is looking a distinct possibility as he couldn't cope with Egg Yolk Lecithin. or the EZcomplete which contains eggs.

Langford described Dylan as complicated, challenging and confusing. I'm inclined to agree with them.


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## Paddypaws

@Forester making home made raw does sound the way to go. Can you get hold of wild rabbit at all as it is supposed to be great for sensitive digestion. Whereabouts are you located?


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## Pepperpots

I had to make homemade, so meant finding bone and offal sources he was ok with. It's more expensive, but Purrform does rabbit liver, kidney and jointed pieces. Might be cheaper to find a local butcher though.

Fellini also produced impressive projectile vomiting here too!


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## Pepperpots

I think rabbit is low in taurine though, so not good for feeding as a solo protein long term without supplements.


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## Forester

@Paddypaws. I'm in rural Gloucestershire. I can get hold of wild rabbits although supply is somewhat erratic. I did give raw rabbit for a few days when Dylan was still a kitten although it didn't go well. I suspect that I may have tried to give too much too soon. I also fed cooked wild rabbit in combination with RCSensitivity Control for an experimental ( short term )period a couple of years ago. It was aborted as Dylan became constipated and had to have an enema.

I *am* planning to use rabbit as my next protein to introduce raw but , for the moment, I feel that I don't want to make another protein change in such a short period of time.It is only just over 2 weeks since I started introducing the pork . So far I've only built up to giving 23g of that each day.

@Peperpots, I'm sorry to hear that Felini had the same effect in your household. Was it with Philip?

I don't have any problem with the cost of Purrform if it suits Dylan . I would give everything I have to find a food that he can eat.

On the subject of supplements , may I ask you both @Paddypaws , @Peperpots whether you would consider it safe for me to increase Dylan's raw slightly if I was able to include eggshell calcium, heart, liver and kidney ( in the correct proportions of course ) ?. I know that , long term, I need to add numerous other supplements but I'm currently struggling to source them. ( H and B in Gloucester didn't have anything I needed when I visited them this morning  ). I plan ( hopefully ) to ultimately use the recipe provided on the Raw for IBD website. I was thinking that if I were to add supplements one by one it would be easier to identify anything which causes problems for Dylan.

19/7/17
Still vomiting 3 times per week although there has been nothing since 16th. Even a week without vomiting from Dylan can mean nothing though. He can ( regularly  ) throw in a week without vomiting or a week of vomiting every day for no apparent reason.

On the plus side I've discovered that I can get him to eat the collagen if I sprinkle some of his Bioglan probiotic on top.


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## Paddypaws

I am no expert....but do think that it should be fine to feed an un-supplemented diet for quite some time without it being an issue. (especially if you feed the eggshell and organs mentioned) In fact most of the followers of the Cat Crap approach shun all supplements and many raw feeders agree with that stance.
The Raw feeding for IBD cats is a great group and I am sure they will be able to offer support along the way.


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## Pepperpots

I always fed it unsupplemented. Just made sure I had the correct ratio of bone, kidney, liver and muscle meat. He also tolerated small amounts of fresh sardine. Prawns are also a good source of taurine. 

Paleo Ridge Raw is/was the best website for novel proteins. P was ok with kangaroo, horse, zebra and goat, which are sold in chunks. Although, I think your boy is more sensitive than him, at least at the moment.

I only introduced new proteins after his stomach had been stable for a good amount of time. Interestingly, it improved a lot after the bone broth, which I made out of duck necks and wings. Would he eat it if you warmed it up, so it was liquid, not jelly? I only made one batch though, as he's pretty stable now.

Hope he improves soon.
C x


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## urbantigers

When I started Mosi on raw I just gave him plain meat for a while as I wanted to be sure he was ok with the protein without any supplements. Once I knew he was ok with raw turkey mince I started adding stuff.


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I am no expert....but do think that it should be fine to feed an un-supplemented diet for quite some time without it being an issue. (especially if you feed the eggshell and organs mentioned) In fact most of the followers of the Cat Crap approach shun all supplements and many raw feeders agree with that stance.
> The Raw feeding for IBD cats is a great group and I am sure they will be able to offer support along the way.


You're far too modest. I'm grateful to make use of your extensive knowledge and experience. If meat,plus organs plus eggshell is good enough for you, on a temporary basis , then it's good enough for me. It means that I can start to increase Dylan's raw already. I've been feeding small amounts for a few weeks now and am keen to get things moving.

By the way ,what do you feel about the inclusion of digestive enzymes , necessary or not?

The IBD group are truly wonderful , especially the founders. I gather that they've steered many, many cats through the process of transitioning and feeding raw to IBD sufferers and have a whole host of " workarounds" for use in different situations.



urbantigers said:


> When I started Mosi on raw I just gave him plain meat for a while as I wanted to be sure he was ok with the protein without any supplements. Once I knew he was ok with raw turkey mince I started adding stuff.


It is good to know that this approach worked for Mosi.. I have my fingers crossed that it will also work for Dylan.



Pepperpots said:


> I always fed it unsupplemented. Just made sure I had the correct ratio of bone, kidney, liver and muscle meat. He also tolerated small amounts of fresh sardine. Prawns are also a good source of taurine.
> 
> Paleo Ridge Raw is/was the best website for novel proteins. P was ok with kangaroo, horse, zebra and goat, which are sold in chunks. Although, I think your boy is more sensitive than him, at least at the moment.
> 
> I only introduced new proteins after his stomach had been stable for a good amount of time. Interestingly, it improved a lot after the bone broth, which I made out of duck necks and wings. Would he eat it if you warmed it up, so it was liquid, not jelly? I only made one batch though, as he's pretty stable now.
> 
> Hope he improves soon.
> C x


Thank you. I'll keep Paleo Ridge Raw in mind when I come to increase Dylan's exposure to different proteins. At the moment I'm just sticking with human grade meat, organic if I can get it. I can always expand what I'm giving at a later date.

Bone broth has been a complete failure here. I've tried chicken, rabbit and lamb at different times every which way I could think of it. I'm not worrying about it too much now as I'm hopeful that the hydrolysed collagen ,linked to in an earlier post, is going to do the same job. I'm managing to increase the quantity of that now since I started covering it in his probiotics.

20/7/17

Dylan left me an unwanted " present" this morning. His first vomit since Sunday. I'm not going to build my hopes up because he's gone three clear days. He will do this regularly then return to more frequent depositions. I am disappointed that the pile contained only food, no hair. I don't think that the hair is going through ( you don't need more details than that ) so I'm guessing that it is going to appear pretty soon.

I've made up a mini batch of food, without supplements, so will start that later.


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## Pepperpots

I never gave probiotics/digestive enzymes as he vomited when I tried him on one. Prokolin didn't seem to help.


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## Pepperpots

If he'll tolerate raw egg yolk, it's good for moving hair through in the right direction.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> If he'll tolerate raw egg yolk, it's good for moving hair through in the right direction.


I know that the choline in egg yolk is meant to be very good for motility, and therefore excellent for IBD cats who vomit. The Raw for IBD website recommends the use of egg yolk lecithin as well as egg yolk however I'm suspecting that Dylan may currently have an issue with eggs. I tried him with
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Swanson-Yolk-Lecithin-600mg-Capsules/dp/B003OCAZTM

a short while back. I started with just a few grains a day and gradually built up to about 1/3 capsule. It was disastrous, he vomited every single day including multiple times one day. Did I introduce it too quickly? Was it clearing the hair and would eventually have led to an improvement ? I confess that I didn't wait to find out. I stopped the EYL.

I am wondering whether he has an issue with eggs. There was egg in the EZcomplete that he didn't get on with. An issue with eggs could also explain why he's done " relatively" well with the JWB lamb . It is egg free as well as grain free although I was not impressed with many of the ingredients.

21/7/17
I introduced my meat plus eggshell calcium plus organ mix yesterday. I'd assumed that he would love it as he'd been keen on the plain meat chunks. I was wrong. Sprinkling Bioglan probiotic on it didn't work so I resorted to wafting some Fortiflora in the general direction of the dish. The food was eaten but not with relish.

In view of yesterday's reluctance to eat the raw mixture I gave Dylan 1/2 a cetirizine this morning instead of 1/4. He has been on 1/2 a tablet in the hope that it would help with the eosinophilic inflammation but I recently lowered the dose to 1/4 after consultation with my vet. The cetirizine had boosted Dylan's appetite so much that he was eating 420g wet plus 20g raw and still sitting by his dish asking for food for much of the day. He put on 400g in 7 weeks after starting the cetirizine. The weight gain was much needed but his appetite was escalating completely out of control. I was worried that the very rapid weight gain would not be good for his liver. My vet was concerned that such huge food consumption had nowhere to go but straight back out where it came from, as well as indicating that he can't be utilising his food at all well. His poo is normal . He has never had dire rear.

Dylan scoffed his breakfast then asked for more a short time later. I re fed which was probably a mistake. It reappeared on the cream bedroom carpet. I'm going back to 1/4 tablet tomorrow. At least the cetirizine has prompted Dilly to eat the meat plus organ mix.

Clean up, forget it and carry on is my new motto!


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I re fed which was probably a mistake. It reappeared on the cream bedroom carpet. I'm going back to 1/4 tablet tomorrow. At least the cetirizine has prompted Dilly to eat the meat plus organ mix.
> 
> Clean up, forget it and carry on is my new motto!


Yep, we learn with every step. I've done that too. She'll insist she's still hungry, and even now though I know more is likely to push her over the top, sometimes I still do fall for it, though I've gotten better. And then kicking myself for not leaving it where it was(first meal staying down-don't give any more!)

It is very important for our own mental health to just "clean up and carry on". Hard work to get there, but it helps when you do.


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## Pepperpots

Sorry you're having so many issues. I suspect the fur ball thing will improve with better gut motability.
When P was at his worst, I gave him a tablespoon of food an hour. Then decreased number of meals gradually. He still has four small meals a day, as if I feed him more, we get the dire rear. 
I also set a automatic feeder (with cooling pack) to go off in the middle of the night, as he is worse with an empty stomach.
Think he must have scavenged something yesterday, as he had violent diahorreah at 2 am. Cats!


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## Pepperpots

You have better luck with Fortiflora than me. A tiny pinch caused the most spectacular projectile vomiting. My bedroom carpet may never recover!


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## Paddypaws

@Forester, I think the general opinion of Digestive enzymes is a positive one but of course it is another supplement to research and source, then introduce gradually.
If you are following the Raw IBD group have you not considered the 'poop pills' on offer? I linked to them on here a few times as many of the users report great results.


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## Forester

@lorilu Sadly sometimes it seems that you're dammed if you feed on request and you're dammed if you don't.

Much as I hated doing it I've found that the best thing I've ever done for my state of mind was to shut Dylan out of the bedroom at night. Before then he was waking me , sometimes half hourly, asking for food. It resulted in me getting very little sleep which , in turn, led to me being in tears each time he was sick.

@Pepperpots . Oh no to the dire rear. I hope that P is " firming up" now.

Dylan was on about 10 - 12 small meals a day . He was pretty much fed on request. Since shutting him out of the bedroom at night , and starting some raw, we've dropped to approx. 8 meals . I use an auto feeder to open every couple of hours overnight as he's always preferred to eat most of his food at night. Interestingly since shutting him out of the bedroom he hardly ever vomits at night. Sadly he vomits more in the day time to compensate. I put the reduced night time vomiting down to him having less tendency to overeat in a short period.

I daren't think about my bedroom carpet. Till I imposed the night time ban I would need to scrub it at 2am at least once a week , if not twice. One night I returned my scrubbing kit to the kitchen after an under bed session ,only to find that he'd then puked in the bed !

@Paddypaws . I will admit to not having paid proper attention to your posts about the poo pills. I think that we were working under guidance from Langford when you first posted a link to them. I also had it in my head ( there is little else there ) that they were used just for cases of dire rear. I wonder how much use, probably not the best phrase to use there, a poo sample would be once it has been posted to the U. S.? Surely the bacterial profile wouldn't be too accurate after such a long journey?Thanks for raising the subject though. I'll do some more research.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan was on about 10 - 12 small meals a day . He was pretty much fed on request. Since shutting him out of the bedroom at night , and starting some raw, we've dropped to approx. 8 meals . I use an auto feeder to open every couple of hours overnight as he's always preferred to eat most of his food at night. Interestingly since shutting him out of the bedroom he hardly ever vomits at night. Sadly he vomits more in the day time to compensate. I put the reduced night time vomiting down to him having less tendency to overeat in a short period.


That's great progress! My girls was being fed 22 servings a day, round the clock, at her worst. 5 years of raw later.....she's down to 11.


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## Forester

23/7/17

Yesterday morning I was on top of the world. When cleaning out Dylan's litter tray I discovered poo logs connected to each other with " strings" of hair. A strange thing to get excited about, you say however this is the first time this has happened in a couple of years. For Dylan hair always comes out of the front end not the back one, as it should. This absolutely _has _to be a sign of some sort of progress, doesn't it?

In the evening my mood changes - the third vomit in three days. I have a nasty feeling that increasing collagen at the same time as introducing organs and eggshell has backfired on me. I don't know whether to go back to giving just pork chunks plus wet food for a while so post for advice on the Raw for IBD kitties Fb page.
On the other hand, the first of the three vomits came before I introduced the organs.  :Banghead :Arghh


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> 23/7/17
> 
> Yesterday morning I was on top of the world. When cleaning out Dylan's litter tray I discovered poo logs connected to each other with " strings" of hair. A strange thing to get excited about, you say however this is the first time this has happened in a couple of years. For Dylan hair always comes out of the front end not the back one, as it should. This absolutely _has _to be a sign of some sort of progress, doesn't it?
> 
> In the evening my mood changes - the third vomit in three days. I have a nasty feeling that increasing collagen at the same time as introducing organs and eggshell has backfired on me. I don't know whether to go back to giving just pork chunks plus wet food for a while so post for advice on the Raw for IBD kitties Fb page.
> On the other hand, the first of the three vomits came before I introduced the organs.  :Banghead :Arghh


This is the nature of the beast, sad to say. Roller coaster for sure. Major ups, major downs. That is GREAT about the poops, and that he is passing fur indicates there is some healing and improvement going on.

My advice would be to back up, keep on with the collagen since it was a hard won battle, skip a day or two with the organs/supplements, then resume the transition again.

(edit) I want to add that...even when you start seeing fur in the poop, and even if there is no fur in the puke, it doesn't mean he doesn't still have a wad, or wads in there. I've learned this from my "suspected IBD" cat. There is always, always more fur in there screwing things up


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## Forester

24/7/17

I've received advice and masses of support from the Raw for IBD Fb group. The folks on there are amazing , and understand exactly what I'm up against and going through. I know that without them there is absolutely no way that I could succeed with this as we seem to have problems attempting to make even the slightest change.

So , the advice is to go back to feeding just raw pork, then add eggshell to provide the correct calcium / phosphorus balance ,then taurine, When stable with this, add collagen, then liver in some form or other ( vitamin A ). I've been reassured that there are always alternative nutrient sources if Dylan fails to tolerate any ingredient. It seems that many cats are unable to tolerate raw liver but will be able to take a freeze dried liver product. I now need to source such a product.

I've been given recommendations for brands of FD liver but they all seem to be available only in the US. Never mind, I'm pretty sure that I'll find something. I have also wondered whether I could make my own - either in the freezer ( dohhh ) or with a food drier.

The need to keep a detailed log of food/ meds/ symptoms has been reiterated. I already have one, going back to Jan 14, but I think that I'm going to need a larger one.

@lorilu, You were so right about that fur lurking within. A large quantity appeared this morning along with Dylan's mid morning snack.

There haven't been any more "sausage strings" in the litter tray , however my dissection kit revealed one pea sized furry clump this morning as well as a small quantity of individual hairs.

The process of transitioning Dylan to raw is far harder than I imagined it would be but the possible benefits make it all worthwhile.


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## Pepperpots

You can get freeze dried liver from Amazon/Zooplus, sold as treats.


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## Pepperpots

There's an online calculator somewhere which says how much to give. P was ok with pork liver and kidney, but not other kinds.


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## Pepperpots

Freeze dried liver - 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_s...iver&rh=n:340840031,k:thrive+cat+treats+liver


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Freeze dried liver -
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=pets&field-keywords=thrive+cat+treats+liver&rh=n:340840031,k:thrive+cat+treats+liver


Thanks @Pepperpots .I'd identified those as well as

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PureBites-...500909093&sr=8-54&keywords=freeze+dried+liver

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Powdered-P...8&qid=1500909210&sr=8-14&keywords=dried+liver

The selection here is abysmal compared to that available in the U S.


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## Paddypaws

Doesn't Thrive do a Liver flavour? I am sure they used to
https://thrivepetfoods.com/thrive-prorewardr-100-liver-dog-treats


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## Forester

I've ordered some Thrive FD chicken liver as well as NOW brand taurine. It was a toss up whether to go for chicken or beef liver but apparently chicken is generally better tolerated. Fingers crossed that Dylan's system will cope with it.

Today's food comprises 25g chopped pork loin with the appropriate quantity of eggshell calcium plus as much JWB lamb as he desires.


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## Paddypaws

I am certain Thrive used to do Cat treats in liver but could only find the link for dog treats, hope he takes to it and it stays down anyway!


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I am certain Thrive used to do Cat treats in liver but could only find the link for dog treats, hope he takes to it and it stays down anyway!


Thanks @Paddypaws . The tubes I've ordered are marketed for small dogs but so long as it only contains freeze dried liver I've been told that it won't make any difference. Thrive's version described as simply " Liver" is freeze dried beef liver. I went for the chicken as I've been told that it is generally more easily tolerated. If this doesn't stay down I'll try the beef.

I've been told that there are ways around every issue, apparently if he doesn't tolerate any FD liver I can use just Vit A although obviously the liver is preferable.

Time will tell but I have everything crossed that this will stay down.


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## buffie

Paddypaws said:


> I am certain Thrive used to do Cat treats in liver but could only find the link for dog treats, hope he takes to it and it stays down anyway!


Are these the ones you were thinking of PP's.
They used to be Meeko's favourite but have long since been dumped for the zoo's Cosma 
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/cat-treats/thrive-100%-chicken-liver-tubes-(online-only)?orderBy=1&fa=||price_GBP:[0+30]||ads_f12501_ntk_cs:"Thrive"#

Sorry I cant send you some Sylv,the last lot were chucked out due to lack of interest

Sorry link doesn't work


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Thanks @Paddypaws . The tubes I've ordered are marketed for small dogs but so long as it only contains freeze dried liver I've been told that it won't make any difference. Thrive's version described as simply " Liver" is freeze dried beef liver. I went for the chicken as I've been told that it is generally more easily tolerated. If this doesn't stay down I'll try the beef.
> 
> I've been told that there are ways around every issue, apparently if he doesn't tolerate any FD liver I can use just Vit A although obviously the liver is preferable.
> 
> Time will tell but I have everything crossed that this will stay down.


Do you know how to calculate how much of the freeze dried to use? It might be useful to post it here, in case anyone else is wanting to go this route. xx


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## Paddypaws

I can't open the link @buffie but am sure we must be remembering the same product. Cosma xxl chicken is the fave here these days too, and pretty reasonably priced which is good. 
@Forester, I did look into 'dog' Thrive at one point and am sure they said the dog treats were more of a chewy consistency rather than the very dry crumbly cat version, so I hope it's still as tempting for Dylan


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## buffie

Paddypaws said:


> I can't open the link @buffie but am sure we must be remembering the same product. Cosma xxl chicken is the fave here these days too, and pretty reasonably priced which is good.
> @Forester, I did look into 'dog' Thrive at one point and am sure they said the dog treats were more of a chewy consistency rather than the very dry crumbly cat version, so I hope it's still as tempting for Dylan


@Paddypaws neither can I  ,
Try this ............http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/cat-treats/thrive-100%-chicken-liver-tubes-(online-only)?orderBy=1&fa=||price_GBP%3A%5B0+30%5D||ads_f12501_ntk_cs%3A%22Thrive%22#

Meeko likes the Cosma XXl too but is now liking the Duo's Chicken and Tuna (when they are in stock )


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## Paddypaws

That's the one @buffie! Jeez, £139.60 per KG! Oh well, at least it is still available if @Forester needs it
off to look at the Duo's cat snack now as I am due a Zoo order.


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## buffie

Paddypaws said:


> That's the one @buffie! Jeez, £139.60 per KG! Oh well, at least it is still available if @Forester needs it
> off to look at the Duo's cat snack now as I am due a Zoo order.


Looks like they are all "out of stock" again .
I just got my order yesterday so they disappeared quick smart, mind you they do have "20% off" all own brand food and litter so I suppose it is popular at the moment.
I did see that they stock the liver Thrive a bit cheaper though .


----------



## Forester

@buffie and @Paddypaws , Don't panic ladies ! 

I've ordered these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thrive-Gen...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YY41KEGCBBKYEPXV0PJP

They are described as being 100% FD chicken liver .

PP, You are correct about the cost. I did have a sharp intake of breath when I saw it ,however I'm looking at the bigger picture. This is my beloved Dylan here. If this can help him it could be double the price and I would buy it. I've spent 4 years trying unsuccessfully to help this poor cat. I'm not going to be stopped by the price of FD chicken liver! 

I ordered from Amazon as s*ds law dictates that my ZP order arrived yesterday.

@lorilu I have seen a calculator concerning how much FD liver to use . I'll find it again and post a link here when I get to the stage of introducing the liver.


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## Forester

buffie said:


> Sorry I cant send you some Sylv,the last lot were chucked out due to lack of interest


Hey, there was no need to apologise for not letting us have Meeko's leftovers.

Seriously though, the FDCL has just arrived and Dylan has been going bonkers trying to get at it. I opened one tube for a peek and it doesn't look chewy at all, just very dry.

My boy has just demonstrated that, with correct positioning, he can vomit from the top of his tree, score a hit on every rung of the ladder and still have plenty left to scatter on the floor! By the time I'd finished my clean up he was waiting for a refill.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Hey, there was no need to apologise for not letting us have Meeko's leftovers.
> 
> Seriously though, the FDCL has just arrived and Dylan has been going bonkers trying to get at it. *I opened one tube for a peek and it doesn't look chewy at all, just very dry.*
> 
> My boy has just demonstrated that, with correct positioning, he can vomit from the top of his tree, score a hit on every rung of the ladder and still have plenty left to scatter on the floor! By the time I'd finished my clean up he was waiting for a refill.


Not sure how much you are using as a supplement but it should crumble easily,thats why I had it for Mr M to use as an incentive on picky days 

Well done Dyl , no point in vomiting unless you make a decent job of it...........(you know me well enough to realise I'm just joking)


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## Forester

buffie said:


> Not sure how much you are using as a supplement but it should crumble easily,thats why I had it for Mr M to use as an incentive on picky days
> 
> Well done Dyl , no point in vomiting unless you make a decent job of it...........(*you know me well enough to realise I'm just joking*)


Of course I do. You've kept me sane ( I think! ) since the very beginning of Dylan's long ordeal. I'd have crumbled long ago without you.


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## buffie

We prop each other up ,while the boys sail happily on through life


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## Forester

28/7/17

Dylan has vomited several times in the last few days and it has occurred to me that I have no idea whether he is reacting to the eggshell, or to something in the JWB lamb. I've consulted with the founders of the Raw for IBD Fb page and have received new advice. I intend to follow this advice to the letter as they have far more experience of transitioning IBD sufferers to raw than I have. Over the 4 years I've had Dylan I've pretty much driven myself mental continually trying to find ways to help him. Apart from a short period after he was referred to Langford there hasn't been a single day when I haven't felt the weight of trying to decide what I should do .

So - the new plan of campaign:-

Go straight to giving 100% poached pork ( no transition ) if Dylan will eat it. Keep him on this for a few days . If his vomiting is the same, or less than usual I then transition him gradually to 100% raw pork , taking his rate of vomiting as my guide for the speed of the transition.

Once Dylan is on completely raw , I can start to add the necessary ingredients to balance the diet. I am to report to the RfIBD Fb Group daily and they will guide me through.

I did express my concern about feeding an unbalanced diet but have been told not to worry - Dylan is adult, and nutritional deficiencies take time to develop.

I must admit to feeling nervous but , if I don't do this I can't see that Dylan has any chance of improving. Nothing else has helped.

:Nailbiting :Nailbiting :Arghh


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## Forester

29/7/17

Dylan has been on 100% poached pork for 24 hours now. He loves it . I hope that he will be as keen all the way through the process till I get him onto a balanced raw diet. He hasn't vomited, or looked at all uncomfortable though I did have a tiny amount of soft poo at the end of his nightly offering. I assume that this will be down to the lack of calcium and will correct itself as we introduce eggshell, or whatever form of calcium he can tolerate.

He's eating much less of the poached pork than he was of the JWB lamb ( presumably down to the amount of [email protected], sorry, " ingredients lacking nutritional value" in the JWB ) and is staying satisfied for longer.

If everything goes to plan I aim to start introducing raw pork on Monday, starting with 25% raw 75% cooked the first day.

Feeling positive. There are bound to be setbacks ahead but I'm determined that we'll get there. If the raw diet helps Dylan I will be " over the moon". If it doesn't, well at least I will know that I gave it a go.

ETA I haven't seen any recent evidence of hair moving through the system. It looks as though the hair previously reported may have been an isolated incident.


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## urbantigers

Really pleased the pork is going down well.

I must have a re-read of this thread - wha'ts this liver? I really need some liver to add to plain mince for days when Kito has a chicken wing for his tea (so bone heavy), Currently I just give him some plain mince if remember. I don't feel I need to feed it for every chicken wing meal but once a week I like to ease up on the bone content. I have read the formula for adapting food that has too high a ratio of calcium on the IBD raw website and want to do that with what I am feeding as I think the felini is making the meals too calcium rich. However, neither of them seem to like plain liver! It's difficult to cut up to add in small enough amounts. They do, however, like the cosma/thrive treats with liver in them.


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## Pepperpots

We're doing similarly here. I have a little kitten with a bad tum. He's on plain raw turkey and he loves it.


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> Really pleased the pork is going down well.
> 
> I must have a re-read of this thread - wha'ts this liver? I really need some liver to add to plain mince for days when Kito has a chicken wing for his tea (so bone heavy), Currently I just give him some plain mince if remember. I don't feel I need to feed it for every chicken wing meal but once a week I like to ease up on the bone content. I have read the formula for adapting food that has too high a ratio of calcium on the IBD raw website and want to do that with what I am feeding as I think the felini is making the meals too calcium rich. However, neither of them seem to like plain liver! It's difficult to cut up to add in small enough amounts. They do, however, like the cosma/thrive treats with liver in them.


Thanks @urbantigers . It is a relief that , so far, it is looking like a good protein to use for Dylan.

The liver I initially referred to was pigs liver which I included in the organ mix for my " approximation to Prey Model Raw ".Unfortunately there was something ( or things ) which weren't being tolerated at the time so suspicion fell on the pigs liver .

I'm sorry but I don't feel that I know anywhere near enough about balancing diets to give you guidance on balancing the raw meals that you're feeding. Are you a Member of the Cats Completely Raw and Proud Fb group ? Someone there might be able to give you good advice.

If you're feeding the Cosma/ Thrive liver treats you *are *feeding liver, all be it not in a fresh form. I've bought similar FD liver treats to use as a substitute for raw liver.
Here is an article on using FD liver instead of fresh.

http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/using-freeze-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh.html

I hope that it will be helpful.



Pepperpots said:


> We're doing similarly here. I have a little kitten with a bad tum. He's on plain raw turkey and he loves it.


Poor little chap. I hope that your lad will soon be feeling much better. Don't they love the pure meat diet ! Fingers crossed that he'll be as happy once back to a balanced one.

30/7/17

As I'm here I might as well provide an update.
Dylan is still on 100% poached pork and all seems well. No vomiting though no poo today either. He's clearly feeling pretty good and has been demonstrating his " wall of death" manoeuvres. He's also put on weight - up to 5.1kg, not surprising considering how much he's been eating.
My mentors from the Raw for IBD group have suggested keeping Dylan on the poached pork for one week before starting the transition to raw .


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## Forester

!/8/17

I must learn not to plan too far ahead.

Yesterday I reported back to my mentors that Dylan had lost his enthusiasm for the poached pork. I'd had to sprinkle his probiotics over the meat in order to get him to eat. I was advised that he was " about to strike" and that to avoid him refusing to eat I needed to either add another protein or start the transition to raw. I opted to go for the transition because I'm not confident of finding an easily sourced protein which he can tolerate and which I could get hold of in a hurry.

24 hours ago I started including 10% raw pork in each of his meals. He's back to eating with enthusiasm although he was sick this morning. That is the first time that he's vomited in 6 days ( he normally averages 3 per week) . The vomit wasn't like his usual ones. Normally the whole contents of his stomach come back 10 minutes after eating. This time only about half of his food came back. He'd gone longer than usual before breakfast ( about 5 hours ) so I'd given him just a couple of chunks of pork 15 minutes before his main meal in case he's accumulated any stomach acid. The mini breakfast stayed down but half of the main course came back.

Unless I hear differently beforehand I'm going to give 10% raw pork again tomorrow.

I've managed to source a couple of frozen rabbits and some turkey breast slices in case I need them at short notice.


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## urbantigers

Great that he's liking the raw pork. Fingers crossed that it likes him too. Pork is a popular choice here and the first thing I added to Mosi's diet after turkey (which I was pretty sure he'd be ok with so started with that).

You know I never thought about the liver treats being counted as liver!

I was trying to work to this formula to dilute the meat + felini (treating that as a pre ground mix) as I think it is a bit too bone/calcium heavy for Mosi. One difficulty was that I didn't want to add liver of a protein not yet introduced. I found some pork liver but neither will touch it, although both ok with a tiny amount added to the food. Not easy to cut liver into tiny pieces though as it's too slimy. Have since seen chicken liver which may be a better bet.

http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/how-to-dilute-bone-content-of-preground-mixes.html


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> Great that he's liking the raw pork. Fingers crossed that it likes him too. Pork is a popular choice here and the first thing I added to Mosi's diet after turkey (which I was pretty sure he'd be ok with so started with that).
> 
> You know I never thought about the liver treats being counted as liver!
> 
> I was trying to work to this formula to dilute the meat + felini (treating that as a pre ground mix) as I think it is a bit too bone/calcium heavy for Mosi. One difficulty was that I didn't want to add liver of a protein not yet introduced. I found some pork liver but neither will touch it, although both ok with a tiny amount added to the food. Not easy to cut liver into tiny pieces though as it's too slimy. Have since seen chicken liver which may be a better bet.
> 
> http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/how-to-dilute-bone-content-of-preground-mixes.html


Thank you 

Until researching the use of liver in cat food it wouldn't have occurred to me to use FD treats either. They seem so " insignificant" ( apart from the price, that is! )

If it is any help I've been advised by the founders of the Raw for IBD Fb site that cats intolerant of a particular protein are not necessarily intolerant of the organs from that animal. It also works out that they can't automatically tolerate organs from an animal whose muscle meat they are o k with.

Sadly, I don't think that any raw liver is easy to cut. Freeze dried might be easier to portion accurately.

I hope that you will be able to find a liver source which Mosi enjoys, can tolerate ,and doesn't cost you a fortune!


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I don't think that any raw liver is easy to cut.


 If you freeze the liver first, not frozen solid but just enough to firm it up, it is easy to cut.



urbantigers said:


> Not easy to cut liver into tiny pieces though as it's too slimy.


See my comment above. I feed prey model in rotation and I cut chicken liver into 0.3 oz pieces and freeze in ice cube trays. Each cat gets 0.1 oz per PMR meal, and I use only organic non GMO liver. I used to use regular chicken liver for the two that don't need organic non-GMO a, but it just got too crazy, two kinds of liver. I'm already feeding two kinds of meat, enough is enough lol. . So I reduced the number of PMR meals to accommodate my meager organic non-GMO liver source instead.


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## Paddypaws

As @lorilu states, liver and all other organ meats are far easier to deal with when fairly frozen. I like the ceramic blade knives or Kuhn rikon blades for slicing the frozen meat


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## lorilu

Paddypaws said:


> As @lorilu states, liver and all other organ meats are far easier to deal with when fairly frozen. I like the ceramic blade knives or Kuhn rikon blades for slicing the frozen meat


I use scissors. : )


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## Forester

3/8/17

The good news is that today I've given Dylan 20% raw pork / 80% poached pork and he hasn't vomited. We've only had the one " mini" vomit in the last 8 days, considerably better than the average of 3 per week on the JWB lamb.

The bad news is that I've had to take him to the vet today for an enema. He was eating, drinking, playing and acting as normal but hadn't pooped since early Saturday morning. I'd had a sneaky feeling that this might happen with the sudden abandonment of the JWB. On JWB he'd produced stools which you might imagine had come from a medium sized dog. When examined he was noticeably uncomfortable and his stools felt very hard.

The vet supplied some lactulose for use in case Dylan requires further " assistance " whilst his system adjusts to the less bulky diet.

The raw feeding group have suggested that I increase the proportion of fat that I'm feeding. I'm therefore going to buy pork shoulder instead of pork loin next time I shop.

This is proving to be a very steep learning curve.


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## Paddypaws

Pork shoulder is much cheaper than loin and seems very popular with most cats so hopefully it will help his bowels.


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## Forester

5/8/17

Dylan is on 50% cooked/ 50% raw today. He was so reluctant to eat the cooked pork I decided to take the plunge and increase his raw, this way I can be sure that he'll get more to eat.

We've only had the one small vomit in the last 9 days. He's lulled me into a false feeling that we were making progress so many times in the past I'm nervous of thinking that we're actually going to see a sustained improvement this time.


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## Paddypaws

Excellent update!


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Excellent update!


I'm pleased, obviously, but nervous of getting too confident. He's given me isolated weeks without vomiting in the past , only to return to his pattern of several a week. The sudden change when I dropped the JWB wet does seem encouraging though. I think that the next week is going to be the real indicator.:Nailbiting


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## urbantigers

Sounds promising. I generally use pork shoulder.

Raw poops are pretty hard but 5 days is some time to go without one - poor Dylan. I hope he's feeling more comfortable now. I stood in a poop the other day on getting out of bed and going into the hallway - think it was a clingon judging by skid marks on the floor and proximity to litter tray - but was very grateful at that point I feed raw!

Mosi has some constipation problems on raw so I'm trying adding some pumpkin once a day to see if it helps. He goes ok once every other day but sometimes has difficulty and ends up going from tray to tray until he can get it out. Adding some additional fat is the next step (I tried that sporadically before but didn't do it consistently).


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## lorilu

urbantigers said:


> Sounds promising. I generally use pork shoulder.
> 
> Raw poops are pretty hard but 5 days is some time to go without one - poor Dylan. I hope he's feeling more comfortable now. I stood in a poop the other day on getting out of bed and going into the hallway - think it was a clingon judging by skid marks on the floor and proximity to litter tray - but was very grateful at that point I feed raw!
> 
> Mosi has some constipation problems on raw so I'm trying adding some pumpkin once a day to see if it helps. He goes ok once every other day but sometimes has difficulty and ends up going from tray to tray until he can get it out. Adding some additional fat is the next step (I tried that sporadically before but didn't do it consistently).


I would recommend increasing fat rather than using pumpkin. I have had excellent results with adding a little extra skin to the meals.


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## Pepperpots

urbantigers said:


> Great that he's liking the raw pork. Fingers crossed that it likes him too. Pork is a popular choice here and the first thing I added to Mosi's diet after turkey (which I was pretty sure he'd be ok with so started with that).
> 
> You know I never thought about the liver treats being counted as liver!
> 
> I was trying to work to this formula to dilute the meat + felini (treating that as a pre ground mix) as I think it is a bit too bone/calcium heavy for Mosi. One difficulty was that I didn't want to add liver of a protein not yet introduced. I found some pork liver but neither will touch it, although both ok with a tiny amount added to the food. Not easy to cut liver into tiny pieces though as it's too slimy. Have since seen chicken liver which may be a better bet.
> 
> http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/how-to-dilute-bone-content-of-preground-mixes.html


If you cut offal whilst it's still mainly frozen it's really easy to cut and a lot less disgusting!


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I'm pleased, obviously, but nervous of getting too confident. He's given me isolated weeks without vomiting in the past , only to return to his pattern of several a week. The sudden change when I dropped the JWB wet does seem encouraging though. I think that the next week is going to be the real indicator.:Nailbiting


This has always been my girl's pattern..Any change that turns out to have a positive effect lasts for a period of time, then she reverts back to her 'normal' patterns. Hope it's not going to be like that for Dylan, but still...every bit of effort improves their quality of life, and that's what matters most.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> This has always been my girl's pattern..Any change that turns out to have a positive effect lasts for a period of time, then she reverts back to her 'normal' patterns. Hope it's not going to be like that for Dylan, but still...every bit of effort improves their quality of life, and that's what matters most.


I'm sorry to hear that your girl has times when she appears to go backwards. From the little I know of her, your progress with her has been amazing. I hope that she continues to take far more forward steps than backwards ones.

7/8/17

Dylan is on 75% raw pork/ 25% cooked today however he's doing his best to prevent me getting too confident that he's making progress. He vomited this morning - the second in 12 days. He's also failed to " produce " in the litter tray. I found this morning's vomit quite disheartening. I heard the " countdown" from another room but , by the time I got to him, he'd deposited . . . and had started to eat the food from the carpet. . Well, that certainly explains last week's " mini vomit". I wonder whether there have been any more which have been " recycled".

I've increased his lactulose to 2ml per dose but wonder whether that is enough to be effective. I've never been in this position before. Also wondering how long to give him before instigating another vet trip. I think that I'll ring my vet for advice.


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## Paddypaws

I am used to the workings of raw fed bowels so am comfortable with cats not pooping for several days _as long as they are not displaying discomfort _
In cases of constipation though, I would 'dose to effect' so maybe that Lactulose dose needs to increase while his gut gets used to the raw diet. I would also add fat, either butter or goose/duck fat but am not sure how those would affect Dylan.
As for the 'recycling' I knew it went on when my old cats ate dry food....scarf 'n' barf, and scarf again!


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I am used to the workings of raw fed bowels so am comfortable with cats not pooping for several days _as long as they are not displaying discomfort _
> In cases of constipation though, I would 'dose to effect' so maybe that Lactulose dose needs to increase while his gut gets used to the raw diet. I would also add fat, either butter or goose/duck fat but am not sure how those would affect Dylan.
> As for the 'recycling' I knew it went on when my old cats ate dry food....scarf 'n' barf, and scarf again!


Thanks PP. The issue which concerns me is that I didn't think that Dylan seemed particularly uncomfortable when I took him to the vets last week but he clearly was. I don't want him suffering because I've missed the signs. I've been increasing the lactulose dose on a daily basis , starting with 0.5 ml , then 1ml, now 2ml.

I have a feeling that the "bulkiness" of Dylan's previous diet is contributing to the problem . He used to eat 420g of the JWB each day, now he's down to approx. 160g - 180g of a food which is much more digestible, there is far less " waste".

I'm sure that your suggestion of the goose/ duck fat or butter is an excellent one. I've no idea how he'd react to any of them either but it is good to have an option to think about. Dylan has " thieved" unsalted butter many times in the past so I think that would be my first choice. For now I'm going to increase the lactulose again if there's been no production by tomorrow morning.

My usual vet is not available today but I've left a message for him to ring me tomorrow.

To the best of my knowledge Dylan has never " recycled" his food before now, though when a kitten, would stop eating to puke next to his bowl. . . then carry on eating from the bowl. The raw meat is clearly much tastier once chewed than his wet food ever was!


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## Paddypaws

Ahh well if he has stolen butter before then I would start now giving him small blobs so that future meals are lubricated and more likely to pass easily. Once the stool dries up in the gut it's hard for anything to soften it so prevention is better than cure


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## Forester

We have POOP !!!!!!

I honestly don't know when I was last this happy. Whether it was the max dose lactulose, the bum massaging or the lumps of butter I have no idea but I've never been so pleased to see a pile of the brown stuff.


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## urbantigers

Yay for poop!! I know that feeling!

The importance of cat poo in my life is slightly worrying at times. I sometimes findi myself saying something about it at work then half way through the sentence I realise that even the cat lovers don't want to hear it


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## lorilu

urbantigers said:


> Yay for poop!! I know that feeling!
> 
> The importance of cat poo in my life is slightly worrying at times. I sometimes findi myself saying something about it at work then half way through the sentence I realise that even the cat lovers don't want to hear it


Hahaha! I know how that is too!


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## Forester

9/8/17

Dylan is still being served 75% raw, 25% cooked pork. In practice he's having a larger proportion of raw than that because, during the daytime, he leaves much of the cooked pork. At night everything gets eaten. He hasn't been sick since Monday morning ( 7th ) but has looked nauseous a few times. For that reason I intend to continue with the 75%:25% for a little longer.

I'm giving him 2ml lactulose 3 times daily in addition to his 2mg pred. ( 2 x 1mg ) , 5mg cetirizine and a capsule of the Bioglan Biotic Balance. I've checked my records today ( as if I don't do it every day  ) and have tallied up that he's been sick just twice in the last two weeks. In the previous 2 weeks he vomited 6 times.


Desperately hoping that he can sustain this improvement.


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## Forester

11/8/17

Yesterday started well but then went downhill. I woke to find poo in Dylan's tray - somewhat loose , but produced without me having to resort to bum massaging, force feeding butter and maximum level doses of lactulose. I've now reduced his lactulose dose to 1.5ml 3 times daily and will adjust accordingly.

Sadly he vomited - twice. The second, I think ,was due to him having gone several hours between meals which stayed down.

Today, I've asked for advice on the Raw for IBD Fb group. After such massive improvement when I first took Dylan off the JWB we seem to be slipping backwards. I've received suggestions of adding Slippery Elm Bark and George's Aloe Vera to his diet to soothe his system. NB ONLY George's Aloe Vera

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Georges-Al...=1502448686&sr=1-3&keywords=georges+aloe+vera

is acceptable. This has been distilled to have the latex removed. Aloe Vera containing latex is extremely dangerous for cats and *should not *be used.

I've received , most welcome, advice that slippery elm bark can be mixed with butter and fed that way. I've tried Dylan with slippery elm bark in the past and found that it helped however after the first few days I was unable to get Dylan to take it.

Here are instructions for making SEB liquid

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/

I've also had advice to take Dylan's transition back to how it was before his vomiting started to increase and to build up again.

My heart wants me to push on so that I can get Dylan's diet balanced as soon as possible but my head is telling me that there is no point in using measures to mask problems that the speed of transition is creating. I think that I'm going to take Dylan back to 50% raw/ 50% cooked for a couple of days, then increase the proportion of raw again, but more slowly than before.

There again, I'm a Pisces and may change my mind.


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## Forester

13/8/17

This is the second day with Dylan back on 50% raw pork: 50% cooked. I think that it would be incorrect to describe it as a move backwards as he's been so much more comfortable and hasn't vomited - yet. I hope that I've learnt a lesson from trying to push him on at a rate which suits me ( in my hurry to make his diet complete ) rather than him. He's still eating the raw first but, if I refuse to give him more raw before he's finished the cooked , the cooked does get eaten . So long as he doesn't vomit before midnight I'll move on to 60% raw 40% cooked tomorrow.

His last poo was Wednesday night/ Thursday morning. If there's nothing by morning I may think about action to stimulate some movement.


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## Forester

Grrr, why is every step forward followed by even more in the opposite direction ? My lovely boy has perfected the art of putting me through torment. - please bear in mind that our ordeal has been going on for 4 years like this.

Yesterdays diary entry was swiftly followed by another vomit. I think that it may have been caused by excess acid. Overnight we had poo , Yayy! but then another vomit.

I've tried to do 60% raw 40% cooked today but the little rotter is refusing the cooked.

I've been reminded by someone on the Raw for IBD group , for whom I have the greatest respect :Kiss, that vomiting is what Dylan does anyway. An increase may not be down to what I'm doing, it could just be him being him. I feel completely lost to know what to do yet again.

Dylan is refusing the cooked pork which makes a mockery of trying to gradually increase the proportion of raw. I've boiled up some Slippery Elm Bark with a view to perhaps trying to give some to soothe his system but I'm not keen on the idea of administering it. PP has suggested mashing some in butter to help it slide down which sounds like a great idea but I'm dreading having to force something else down him. I'm hoping that my SEB will cool to be sufficiently solid for me to swipe some into his mouth. He's good with tablets but finds anything of a softer or liquid nature quite traumatic. The poor little soul is already moving in the opposite direction when he sees the syringe of lactulose. He's the sweetest natured cat I've ever known, I really don't want to change that.

Oh well, they say that nothing worth having ever comes easily - this had better be good when we get there.


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## oliviarussian

Big hugs to lovely Dylan, I'm not commenting cos I know nothing about it but am reading with interest and hope that you find something that suits him x


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## Forester

Thanks @oliviarussian , knowing that you, and others, are routing for us *does *help.

I apologise for voicing my despair, it saves me from screaming. Dylan has been described by various vets as " complicated, challenging and confusing", " a nightmare" and " not a normal case". They've exhausted all of their ideas so this has to work if I am ever going to find a way to help him.

On a more positive note , I've just realised that the recent spate of vomiting is different to his usual " variety". He's vomiting froth as well as food which, as far as I'm aware, has to indicate that it is being caused by an increase in stomach acid as his system adjusts to digesting the raw meat. I understand that a way around this is to feed more and smaller meals. Fingers, and everything else, crossed that it will help.


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## urbantigers

Poor Dylan. Probably true though that vomiting may be just what he does and whatever food he's on it's not going to stop, although hopefully reduce over time. I think it's probably a good idea to take a step backwards but obviously difficult if he's refusing the cooked pork.

Probably nothing whatsoever to do with Dylann's situation, but when I started with raw Kito was sick a few times (after initially seeming ok) until I had to stop and go back to wet food for a while. After I re-introduced raw gradually again he was fine and now it's like his digestive system has adapted to raw and it's the right food for him. Sorry not explaining that well - just mean that he's not been on the raw at all for very long so maybe it will take him a while to adapt to it and any improvements may be a while coming.

Sorry that doesn't even make sense to me reading it back! Hope you know what I mean. I sometimes think that although cats are essentially designed for raw food, it can take a period of adjustment even when introduced gradually.


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## Forester

I know what you mean @urbantigers. Thank you.

I'm glad that you found a way which suited Kito to transition him.

Dylan has been having some raw for over 2 and 1/2 months now so I feel inclined to just push on. I think that the appearance of acid pukes may be an indicator that Dylan's system is adapting to having the raw. My boy has reacted to every single change that I've ever made to his diet so I want to minimise the number of changes that I make.

I was told by Dylan's first specialist at Langford that it wouldn't be possible to completely stop Dylan's vomiting because he has fibrosis. She had been hopeful that we would have been able to reduce it though. Sadly even extremely high doses of immunosuppressants made no difference to him.


----------



## Paddypaws

Sorry to hear you seem to be having a few set backs. 
BUT do not ever lose sight of the fact that no one else would be able to care for Dylan as well as you do. 
Maybe he won't ever stop puking but you are working towards giving him the best diet possible to give him good nutrition and he is showing you that he is enjoying the raw food.


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## Forester

Thanks for your kind words @Paddypaws . Even if the raw diet doesn't appear to help Dylan I believe that it *has* to be the best option for him. No matter how much distress his condition causes me I will never, ever give up trying to help him.

One good thing has come out of this - rescues in Gloucestershire can't ever have had so much good quality " sensitive" food donated to them as they have whilst Dylan has been with me!


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## lorilu

Paddypaws said:


> Sorry to hear you seem to be having a few set backs.
> BUT do not ever lose sight of the fact that no one else would be able to care for Dylan as well as you do.
> *Maybe he won't ever stop puking but you are working towards giving him the best diet possible to give him good nutrition and he is showing you that he is enjoying the raw food.*





Forester said:


> Thanks for your kind words @Paddypaws . *Even if the raw diet doesn't appear to help Dylan I believe that it has to be the best option for him.* No matter how much distress his condition causes me I will never, ever give up trying to help him.
> 
> One good thing has come out of this - rescues in Gloucestershire can't ever have had so much good quality " sensitive" food donated to them as they have whilst Dylan has been with me!


Absolutely (bolded parts in both quotes). Like my girl, even if you never conquer the vomiting entirely, the raw diet is so superior, it gives them a much much better quality of life all around. They feel better, both physically and mentally, they look better, their coats are incredible... AND, not at the least, your own sense of personal satisfaction knowing these things about the raw diet. That was something I didn't know to expect, when I first turned to raw. That very deep sense of personal satisfaction.

A cessation of all vomiting is a goal to strive for, for Dylan. But a reaching that place of acceptance, if that goal is never completely reached, is also something to work toward.

I won't kid you, it was very long and difficult coming, for me. It has only been in the past few months that I have reached a place where I can sigh, clean up, mark it in the book, and move on. I've stopped agonizing over every vomit (mostly). I haven't stopped watching for them, keeping track, knowing one is soon due, and I haven't stopped trying to avert them by doctoring the meal times/portions when I know she is due and I don't really know how much difference my little diet manipulations make..

But in the end, the lessening of stress now that I have finally, finally, stopped feeling that _helpless gut wrenching angst and anger and frustration and desolation_ over every puke...life is much better for all of us here.

But it took years to get here. xxxxxxx


----------



## lorilu

urbantigers said:


> Poor Dylan. Probably true though that vomiting may be just what he does and whatever food he's on it's not going to stop, although hopefully reduce over time. I think it's probably a good idea to take a step backwards but obviously difficult if he's refusing the cooked pork.
> 
> Probably nothing whatsoever to do with Dylann's situation, but when I started with raw Kito was sick a few times (after initially seeming ok) until I had to stop and go back to wet food for a while. After I re-introduced raw gradually again he was fine and now it's like his digestive system has adapted to raw and it's the right food for him. Sorry not explaining that well - just mean that he's not been on the raw at all for very long so maybe it will take him a while to adapt to it and any improvements may be a while coming.
> 
> Sorry that doesn't even make sense to me reading it back! Hope you know what I mean. I sometimes think that although cats are essentially designed for raw food, it can take a period of adjustment even when introduced gradually.


It makes perfect sense and is discussed in the IBD raw files. That is why very slow transitions are always recommended, with a possible exception to a real crises situation. xx


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> Poor Dylan. Probably true though that vomiting may be just what he does and whatever food he's on it's not going to stop, although hopefully reduce over time. I think it's probably a good idea to take a step backwards but obviously difficult if he's refusing the cooked pork.
> 
> Probably nothing whatsoever to do with Dylann's situation, but when I started with raw Kito was sick a few times (after initially seeming ok) until I had to stop and go back to wet food for a while. After I re-introduced raw gradually again he was fine and now it's like his digestive system has adapted to raw and it's the right food for him. Sorry not explaining that well - just mean that he's not been on the raw at all for very long so maybe it will take him a while to adapt to it and any improvements may be a while coming.
> 
> Sorry that doesn't even make sense to me reading it back! Hope you know what I mean. I sometimes think that although cats are essentially designed for raw food, it can take a period of adjustment even when introduced gradually.


I probably should have mentioned that part of my reluctance to give Dylan any of the JWB lamb again is that he was *so *much better when I first took him off it. He went from vomiting 3 times weekly to having a spell of 11 days with only 1 vomit. The JWB has many ingredients which I don't think are " ideal" - pea protein, tomato pomace and cassava to name a few off the top of my head. I had however been ecstatic when he went back on the JWB - his previous food ( against all my instincts ) had been z/d dry!


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## urbantigers

Forester said:


> I probably should have mentioned that part of my reluctance to give Dylan any of the JWB lamb again is that he was *so *much better when I first took him off it. He went from vomiting 3 times weekly to having a spell of 11 days with only 1 vomit. The JWB has many ingredients which I don't think are " ideal" - pea protein, tomato pomace and cassava to name a few off the top of my head. I had however been ecstatic when he went back on the JWB - his previous food ( against all my instincts ) had been z/d dry!


Don't feel bad - Mosi was on RC gastrointestinal! He had the wet but I had to supplement it with some of the dry just to get enough food into him.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I probably should have mentioned that part of my reluctance to give Dylan any of the JWB lamb again is that he was *so *much better when I first took him off it. He went from vomiting 3 times weekly to having a spell of 11 days with only 1 vomit. The JWB has many ingredients which I don't think are " ideal" - pea protein, tomato pomace and cassava to name a few off the top of my head. I had however been ecstatic when he went back on the JWB - his previous food ( against all my instincts ) had been z/d dry!





urbantigers said:


> Don't feel bad - Mosi was on RC gastrointestinal! He had the wet but I had to supplement it with some of the dry just to get enough food into him.


You two are not alone. My suspected IBD girl was on that Hills c/d garbage for over 6 years. I know that's what has done this to her.I took her off it in January 2011 (went to canned), there was a long span of trying to find canned foods she could keep down, finally found an organic that did not contain carrageenan (which was then discontinued), started raw in May 2012, and here we are.

Some days still I find it hard to forgive myself for feeding her that toxic garbage for so long. My vet kept telling me the puking was "normal", "some cats just puke alot" and heaven help me I believed her. She came to me from the shelter on that stuff and I believed the vets that it was helping her. When the vomiting became daily, and twice daily, I finally woke up. But the shame of it still haunts me.


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## carly87

Forester, if you want to get him eating raw and cooked, have you thought about mincing?


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> You two are not alone. My suspected IBD girl was on that Hills c/d garbage for over 6 years. I know that's what has done this to her.I took her off it in January 2011 (went to canned), there was a long span of trying to find canned foods she could keep down, finally found an organic that did not contain carrageenan (which was then discontinued), started raw in May 2012, and here we are.
> 
> Some days still I find it hard to forgive myself for feeding her that toxic garbage for so long. My vet kept telling me the puking was "normal", "some cats just puke alot" and heaven help me I believed her. She came to me from the shelter on that stuff and I believed the vets that it was helping her. When the vomiting became daily, and twice daily, I finally woke up. But the shame of it still haunts me.


Please don't blame yourself for feeding the Hills. You were feeding what you believed, at the time, was the best food for your girl . It was the food recommended by your vet and you trusted their opinion.* Anyone of us would have done the same*. Instead* you should applaud yourself* for going out on a limb and making all those changes which have transformed Mazy's life. If you hadn't done that would she have been here now ? I doubt it. As things are she looks amazing - a true testament to your love, devotion and dedication to her. If I can make half the difference to Dylan that you've made with your girl I'm going to be the happiest person on this forum.

I blame myself for not making a concerted effort to get Dylan onto a raw diet before now. I haven't done it because I've been following the veterinary advice till the vets ran out of suggestions. There was a time when I took Dylan to a " pro raw" vet for a second " or was it 4th, or 5th ,opinion. I fully expected him to say " feed him raw and he'll improve" , only the vet didn't say that. After several consultations he just told me that he was " worried" about Dylan.



carly87 said:


> Forester, if you want to get him eating raw and cooked, have you thought about mincing?


That's a good idea @carly87 , thank you. It hadn't occurred to me.

I'm giving 70% raw: 30 % cooked today and Dylan is looking slightly uncomfortable. I'm putting the discomfort down to him leaving most of the cooked . I've made up his next couple of meals but I'll try mincing the food together for the next batch!


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## Forester

19/8/17

Dylan is on his second day of 80% raw pork: 20% cooked. I plan to use up the rest of my cooked meat mixed with 90% raw and then feed just raw, adding eggshell to correct the calcium phosphorus balance as soon as possible.

Vomiting is back to 3 per week, the level we were at before I started the transition . We also have the additional problem of constipation. Over the last few days I've unfortunately taken my eye off the ball, or should I say the litter tray. I reduced Dylan's lactulose to 1.75 ml twice daily a few days ago , from the previous 1.5 ml 3 times daily because his poo was a little loose. Now it is overdue. I seem to be creating problems rather than solving them.


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## lorilu

I can't help thinking that the constipation may be due to the lack of organ in his diet. And/or possibly not enough fat. I understand the need to go slow, but my go to remedy for constipation is increase the fat. Is that possible? (to increase the fat)

I know it's difficult but please do try not to feel TOO discouraged about the uptake in vomiting again. These things go in cycles. It's a very long process, getting there. xxxx

Another thought- How much exercise is Dylan getting? Running and jumping, climbing, rolling around, all very good for keeping things moving! : )


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## Forester

Thanks for your words of encouragement @lorilu. I remember once reading an article which stated that it could take up to a year to successfully transition a cat with IBD to raw. I'm starting to believe it and to understand why.

I've increased the fat in Dylan's diet through using pork shoulder instead of loin. Yesterday I also subjected him to " pilling" several lumps of butter.

I do try to ensure that Dylan gets as much exercise as I can. We probably have 7 or 8 x 10 minute sessions of running and jumping each day. Sadly on days like yesterday he will play for about 5 minutes then lie on the floor watching me exhaust myself with his toys. I don't doubt that he thinks " look at her!, silly old fool ".

Yesterday's dejection has given way to some hope. Not only is coping with a cat with IBD like a roller coaster but it's a very fast one!

Hope has been produced through an extremely large poop in the early hours of this morning. Not only did it arrive without having to resort to another trip to the vet but I realised that much of it *consisted largely of hair !!!!!!!!!!* 









Most people would wonder why this event has cheered me so much - for the last few years most of Dylan's ingested hair appears to have exited via the front end , rather than in his poop. I believe that hair exiting through the back door, as it should, has to be an indicator of improved motility . A few weeks back there had been a sign that some hair was passing through but it looked like an isolated incident.

My worries have also been eased slightly by the explanation of what has happened to all of the hair which in the past would have appeared in vomit. Apart from yesterday there has been very little hair in Dylan's vomit since I stopped feeding the JWB lamb. Part of me has been imagining it " stuck" inside ready to cause a blockage. Because Dylan has fibrosis I need to be extra alert to any signs of a GI obstruction.


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## Pepperpots

The hair in the poo is definitely a good thing. Another perk of raw feeding is that they don't shed much. Hopefully this will help as well.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> The hair in the poo is definitely a good thing. *Another perk of raw feeding is that they don't shed much*. Hopefully this will help as well.


Thanks for that @Pepperpots. It is something I hadn't heard of , but will be very grateful for.


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## Pepperpots

I feel your pain. I've got one probably ibs cat, who is mainly under control after 18 months of trying different things. Plus now, my lovely new rescue kitten, who cant tolerate any cat food, which was apparently caused by a fosterer changing his food to Felix and biscuits from grain free food at his other foster home.

He's still a work in progress and just had a bit of a setback. He just eaten a big chunk of raw turkey and is very proud of his chewing skills! Premades seems to set him off. And eating too much. And eating too little. And the thing he was fine with the day before ..... 

Back to pork and turkey and slowly introduce Felini again.

It's a bit of a rollercoaster, isn't it!


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## lorilu

Hurray for hairy poop!!! I did suspect it was that, since you said in the IBD group he brought up fur. When they bring up fur, you know it's just the tip, that there is tones more where that came from.

You both much be feeling very relieved!


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> deleted, duplicate post


LOL and I got alerted to every one of them hahahaha!


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> I feel your pain. I've got one probably ibs cat, who is mainly under control after 18 months of trying different things. Plus now, my lovely new rescue kitten, who cant tolerate any cat food, which was apparently caused by a fosterer changing his food to Felix and biscuits from grain free food at his other foster home.
> 
> He's still a work in progress and just had a bit of a setback. He just eaten a big chunk of raw turkey and is very proud of his chewing skills! Premades seems to set him off. And eating too much. And eating too little. And the thing he was fine with the day before .....
> 
> Back to pork and turkey and slowly introduce Felini again.
> 
> It's a bit of a rollercoaster, isn't it!


Oh nooooo! !!!! to the problems you're having with your new little one. He's such a lucky boy to have been adopted by you. Who else would do whatever is best for him, no matter how hard it might be ?Out of interest your young one wasn't by any chance vaccinated just before his problems started was he? I've often laid the blame for Dylan's " issues" with the fact that , on CP and their vet's advice, I vaccinated him from scratch because his status was unknown. ( He was a stray at 6 months old ).If his original home had vaccinated him he could have had 4 shots in about 4 months. CP had advised me that , as the original owner hadn't neutered him they considered it unlikely that he'd been vaccinated.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> LOL and I got alerted to every one of them hahahaha!


 Sorry. There was a lot of bad language at this end when that occurred!


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Hurray for hairy poop!!! I did suspect it was that, since you said in the IBD group he brought up fur. When they bring up fur, you know it's just the tip, that there is tones more where that came from.
> 
> You both much be feeling very relieved!


I was so happy that I even let him have 90% of the bed for a while whilst I teetered on the edge. Sadly, he started shouting at me after a while so got shut out of the bedroom.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I was so happy that I even let him have 90% of the bed for a while whilst I teetered on the edge. Sadly, he started shouting at me after a while so got shut out of the bedroom.


I'm so grateful I have peaceful sleepers. One sleeps on my neck, one in my arms and one on my legs.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I'm so grateful I have peaceful sleepers. One sleeps on my neck, one in my arms and one on my legs.


3 very lucky cats! xx


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## Pepperpots

No, it started a few weeks after vaccination, coinciding with the move. The new fosterer wasn't suppose to swap foods straight over, so CP boss was totally frustrated. Given he was a hand rear, who had nearly died from cat flu, I suspect it was too much change for him to cope with. He seems to be thriving now. Last check up with vets was positive. He's certainly very active and growing fast!

Philip, my older cat, who was picked up on the streets at 8 weeks, had his system overloaded with wormers, vaccines and anaesthetics at the rescue (not where I got the latest kitten from), even though they knew he had reacted badly to them. This seems to have basically ruined his digestive system, poor thing. It's taken a long time to get him stable on one type of food only, and even then he still has off days. I'm still furious with them.

Cats Protection, on the other hand, have been amazing with Cash. The main person In this area came to my house with probiotics and said that she thought all rescues with bad backgrounds do better on raw. Luckily, I'd already been there with Philip!


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## Pepperpots

The two pickles: hard work, but worth it!


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> View attachment 321965
> The two pickles: hard work, but worth it!


That's just beautiful.:Cat :Cat I always think - the more you give, the more you get back - a hundred times over!


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## Pepperpots

Well, the kitten has the squits again. Reducing to just turkey and adding some wing tips, to see if the bone helps. I've also ordered some probiotics, as the sample the vet gave us did help. Tomorrow I shall be boiling up some turkey thighs to make bone broth. Not my favourite job! If no improvement, then it will be back to the vets and a poo test.

How's your little one doing? Hope the vomiting is decreasing a bit.


----------



## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Well, the kitten has the squits again. Reducing to just turkey and adding some wing tips, to see if the bone helps. I've also ordered some probiotics, as the sample the vet gave us did help. Tomorrow I shall be boiling up some turkey thighs to make bone broth. Not my favourite job! If no improvement, then it will be back to the vets and a poo test.
> 
> How's your little one doing? Hope the vomiting is decreasing a bit.


If the probiotics helped Cash I personally would be inclined to keep him on them long term. When I first suggested a probiotic for Dylan to my vet he said that he considered them a good idea for any cat at any time. Which probiotic are you using? Have you seen the probiotic recommendations on the Raw for IBD site?
http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/probiotics-for-cats---why-and-which-ones.html
I know that Cash doesn't have IBD, Heaven forbid, but the probiotics mentioned here are tried and tested.

I've just seen your other thread and wondered whether you'd considered that the Felini may not suit your little one. I know that Dylan is exceptionally sensitive but Felini caused him to spray his food half way across the kitchen - and that was at 1/8 of the recommended dose!

As for Dylan, the vomiting is just the same, but I'm heartened by the sight of fur coming out of the back end instead of the front one!.


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## Pepperpots

I spoke to the vet. He's going on to gastrointestinal food and will be on probiotics after that. He's also having a six day course of Panacur. Could well be the Felini. Philip didn't get on with it either. Given as he can't tolerate offal either, the GI food seems to be the only way of giving him a balanced diet. Hopefully we can switch back to raw/grain free food if it works. If it doesn't, it's poo sample time.

The probiotic is Protexin Synbiotic D-C.

Glad to hear about the hair situation. At least that means his gut is working a bit better. Such a long process though.


----------



## lorilu

Pepperpots said:


> I spoke to the vet. *He's going on to gastrointestinal food* and will be on probiotics after that. He's also having a six day course of Panacur. Could well be the Felini. Philip didn't get on with it either. Given as he can't tolerate offal either, the GI food seems to be the only way of giving him a balanced diet. Hopefully we can switch back to raw/grain free food if it works. If it doesn't, it's poo sample time.
> 
> The probiotic is Protexin Synbiotic D-C.
> 
> Glad to hear about the hair situation. At least that means his gut is working a bit better. Such a long process though.


I am very sorry to hear that. I hope you will reconsider, those foods are very poor quality, full of awful junk. If you really feel you must do this, please, _please feed only the wet. _But I shudder to think of your cat having to eat any of it.


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## Pepperpots

I do totally agree with you and it will be the wet only. 

However, if I don't follow the vets advice and Cash doesn't get better, he's not going to want to do any further tests, as he will just say I didn't follow his advice. He's actually a great vet, so best to have him on my side!

Also, he hasn't had a balanced diet for three weeks now, which is worrying as a small kitten.

If it works, he will be weaned off it eventually, with a return to either raw or a grain free wet.


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## Forester

@Pepperpots , I'm sorry to hear that you're having to resort to the Gastrointestinal food for Cash, albeit on a temporary basis.

You've reminded me of an interesting "discussion" I once had with a vet over Dylan's food. I think that I came close to being thrown out of the consulting room when I flatly refused to feed a dry diet." She seemed flabbergasted that I preferred to pay for what she described as " very expensive water".

23/8/17
It is one step forward, two steps back yet again. I started adding eggshell to Dylan's raw pork shoulder yesterday, happy that I am finally correcting his calcium phosphorus balance. He's " rewarded" me by vomiting twice this morning. I'm currently blaming a large slug of hair in the second vomit. Surely the membrane of the eggshell can't be enough to upset him , can it ?????

 :Banghead :Arghh :Bag


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## Pepperpots

I had that 'expensive water' thing, with an old vet. Luckily the new one said to give wet food. He's normally quite supportive about the fact I feed raw, although I don't think he really 'gets' it.

Sorry about the vomiting. Sometimes there just doesn't seem to be a reason. Sounds more likely to be the hair, though. Sounds like he's got a lot of it in his system. Good luck. I'm doing my best not to worry too much, as long as there's a little bit of improvement over time.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> I had that 'expensive water' thing, with an old vet. Luckily the new one said to give wet food. He's normally quite supportive about the fact I feed raw, although I don't think he really 'gets' it.
> 
> Sorry about the vomiting. Sometimes there just doesn't seem to be a reason. Sounds more likely to be the hair, though. Sounds like he's got a lot of it in his system. Good luck. I'm doing my best not to worry too much, as long as there's a little bit of improvement over time.


Hopefully your little one's system will not have had time to become badly damaged, and you will soon make progress with him. Strangely, my current vet is the most " mature" vet I've consulted with Dylan. His initial reaction when told that Dylan was on Hills zd dry was " Get him off it!. I don't mind what you want to feed , so long as it's wet"

As for Dylan , I've been going round in circles , with him baffling all of the vets, for such a long time , I almost can't imagine things ever being any different. I'll never give up trying though.


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## Pepperpots

I get that too!
My other cat, Philip, has asthma, but doesn't seem to react in particularly normal ways to meds (touch wood, is under control this year). When I asked the vet about it, he just laughed and said 'He's one of your animals. He's a bit weird' - said in a really nice jokey way, not insulting. But it's so true. I attract animals with strange chronic conditions. Matches me!

Dylan is a lucky cat to have found you.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> I get that too!
> My other cat, Philip, has asthma, but doesn't seem to react in particularly normal ways to meds (touch wood, is under control this year). When I asked the vet about it, he just laughed and said 'He's one of your animals. He's a bit weird' - said in a really nice jokey way, not insulting. But it's so true. I attract animals with strange chronic conditions. Matches me!
> 
> Dylan is a lucky cat to have found you.


It is good to hear that I'm not the only one. Back in the winter , one of my practice's vets told me that Dylan " isn't a normal case ". She'd come to see an extreme vaccination reaction in my horse . That was described as " like nothing we've seen before ! ".

I prefer to call our animals " Special"

Thank you. Yours are lucky to have you too.


----------



## urbantigers

Much as I hate gastrointestinal food, I did have Mosi on it for a while. I do wish I'd tried raw sooner but it did help him temporarily and showed me that food was an issue and that if I could get the diet right his poo would follow.

sorry that Dylan has taken a bit of a step backwards with the vomiting.

Mosi has not been constipated lately and I don't know why but it's all good. His poo does have more bulk to it than Kit's thought. It's firm and what I'd call normal if I didn't feed raw but not as dry an stick like as Kito's!


----------



## Forester

Dylan has just had his third vomit today. I'm definitely queering whether this is down to ingested hair or to a reaction to the eggshell calcium which I started yesterday.

I've just ordered some calcium carbonate ( limestone flour ) to use as an alternative calcium source, just in case it's the eggshell causing the current problem .Eggshell is 97% calcium carbonate anyway so I will be using the same weight of limestone flour as I would of eggshell.

I'd already put up Dylan's overnight meals of pork plus eggshell but plan to scrap them now. I'm going to give him just pork overnight.

I haven't yet decided what to do tomorrow. I just hope that the calcium carbonate arrives quickly.

Up till now the founders of the Raw for IBD Fb page have only ever known one cat to not tolerate eggshell. . . . . I told you that Dylan is special !!!!!!!


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## Pepperpots

Oh, Dylan!
I guess another option would be the powdered bonemeal. Don't know what animal it comes from, though.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Oh, Dylan!
> I guess another option would be the powdered bonemeal. Don't know what animal it comes from, though.


I think that the bonemeal is usually from cattle.

Dylan likes to keep me on my toes!


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## Pepperpots

Breakfast on GI food = instant trip to litter tray for watery explosion. Course of Panacur starts today, as well.


----------



## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Breakfast on GI food = instant trip to litter tray for watery explosion. Course of Panacur starts today, as well.


Oh Nooooo!. I feel for you.


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## Pepperpots

At least it was in the tray and I'm a dab hand at swooping in with a baby wipe to clean his bum. Raw food puke is far worse - although I expect you are pretty used to it now!


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## Forester

Some good news , for a change!

Dylan's spate of vomiting stopped at the same time that I withdrew the eggshell calcium. I've been using limestone flour as a calcium source for just over 24 hours with no ill effects so far. Fingers, toes and everything else are crossed that this improvement continues.

It looks as though eggs are definitely off the menu then. That is a shame because Dylan has motility problems due to his fibrosis . The recommended remedy for motility problems - egg yolks or egg yolk lecithin. He doesn't want to risk making things easy for me, does he? Never mind , at least I've identified something which needs to be avoided in future.


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## Paddypaws

Limestone flour? never heard of such a thing but if it is staying down that is great.
I wonder if he could handle duck eggs or quail etc?


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Limestone flour? never heard of such a thing but if it is staying down that is great.
> I wonder if he could handle duck eggs or quail etc?


https://www.viovet.co.uk/NAF_Limestone_Flour_for_Horses/c6390/. This is the one that I'm using on a temporary basis.

I'm waiting for this to arrive https://www.nowfoods.com/supplements/calcium-carbonate-powder

Limestone flour is pure calcium carbonate. Eggshell is apparently 97% calcium carbonate. My guess is that it's the other 3% which is causing the problem.( presumably the membrane? )

I'm trying to see identification of an issue with chicken's eggs as a positive. I now have something which I know has to be avoided. It explains Dylan's inability to eat the EZcomplete premix and egg yolk lecithin. I also see it as a partial explanation of why Dylan was better with the JWB lamb than he was with many foods. JWB lamb is egg free.

I suppose that it might be worth trying him with other types of eggs at some time in the future. At the moment I don't think that I could face it.:Bag

As background to my last statement , in the four years that I've had Dylan I have never , ever ,found a single food which he can eat without any vomiting. He has reacted to every food that he's been given. My priority at the moment is to get him onto a complete diet .

ETA The link to the NAF limestone flour shows it to be 39.6% calcium . The 39.6% refers to the elemental calcium. Eggshell is also approximately 40% elemental calcium which is why they are interchangeable.


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## Pepperpots

Fingers crossed you've managed to cross off one culprit. Cats are weird!


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I suppose that it might be worth trying him with other types of eggs at some time in the future. At the moment I don't think that I could face it


I would feel exaclty the same way. And have felt so, with my girl. xxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I would feel exaclty the same way. And have felt so, with my girl. xxxx


I know that you've had to go through this with your girl , and have come out the other side in a far better position but it is so hard, isn't it? In my heart I know that this is Dylan's best ( only ) option but it is currently seeming to get worse by the day.

Breakfast came back this morning. I hadn't given him any slippery elm as it was only 2 hours since his last meal. I don't _think_ that it was an acid puke. Anyway, I re fed, only for that to come back too. The first " deposition" had contained a large clump of hair but there was no hair at all in the second lot. So much for thinking that Dylan's hair is now moving out of the other end.

I need to update my vet on " progress" within a few days. I'd so wanted to be able to say that we were ready to try to reduce the pred. , as it is , over the last couple of weeks his rate of vomiting has increased to even more than it was when we started the transition to raw.

To read this account you would expect to see a really sick looking cat however he looks a picture of health, and seems happy and lively. None of it seems to make sense.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> To read this account you would expect to see a really sick looking cat however he looks a picture of health, and seems happy and lively. None of it seems to make sense.


I know. {{hugs}}}And that's what keeps us going isn't it? The frustration and worry is all ours. THEY don't know they are sick. They puke and get on with life.

One suggestion. Next time, instead of re-feeding after the puke, give the Georges aloe/SEB (if you have the Georges yet?) Then wait an hour or so. Actually I would recommend you wait at least 6 hours, but I know he's not ready for extended periods between meals yet. The fur needs time to move through, and that means it needs an empty tummy for a period of time. But you could try..the aloe/SEBafter the puke. Wait six hours, then the aloe/SEB again, to forestall the acid build up, then the meal.

Regarding changing things..well in Dylan's case, you are still learning what is going to work and what isn't. For my girl..as you know we've been at this over 5 years. I still get people offering suggestions, and I read a lot of things and think "maybe I should try this or that". But we've got a status quo going now, it's not ideal, but the chances of making it worse instead of better are high..I'm just not willing, at this point, to take the risk. MAYBE one of these things might make all the difference in the world, but if it goes the other way, I am looking at months of recovering lost ground. I don't think I could take it. Well I could, what choice would I have, but do I want to put myself, and her through that. I still have to function every day, at work and that takes an enormous amount of energy from me. I just don't have anything left for rocking the boat at this time.

I know you know what I mean, too. xxxxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I know. {{hugs}}}And that's what keeps us going isn't it? The frustration and worry is all ours. THEY don't know they are sick. They puke and get on with life.
> 
> One suggestion. Next time, instead of re-feeding after the puke, give the Georges aloe/SEB (if you have the Georges yet?) Then wait an hour or so. Actually I would recommend you wait at least 6 hours, but I know he's not ready for extended periods between meals yet. The fur needs time to move through, and that means it needs an empty tummy for a period of time. But you could try..the aloe/SEBafter the puke. Wait six hours, then the aloe/SEB again, to forestall the acid build up, then the meal.
> 
> Regarding changing things..well in Dylan's case, you are still learning what is going to work and what isn't. For my girl..as you know we've been at this over 5 years. I still get people offering suggestions, and I read a lot of things and think "maybe I should try this or that". But we've got a status quo going now, it's not ideal, but the chances of making it worse instead of better are high..I'm just not willing, at this point, to take the risk. MAYBE one of these things might make all the difference in the world, but if it goes the other way, I am looking at months of recovering lost ground. I don't think I could take it. Well I could, what choice would I have, but do I want to put myself, and her through that. I still have to function every day, at work and that takes an enormous amount of energy from me. I just don't have anything left for rocking the boat at this time.
> 
> I know you know what I mean, too. xxxxxx


Thank you @lorilu. Your support is invaluable and greatly appreciated.  :Angelic

You're so right, my little lad is completely oblivious to all the anxiety that he causes. He's rapturous whilst being fussed and caressed and appears to not have a care in the world.

I will try giving SEB after Dylan has vomited rather than thinking about re feeding. He's usually quite reluctant to eat after the SEB anyway so perhaps that will give him a fasting period. I appreciate that it has taken 4, if not 5 years for Dylan's digestive system to get into its current state so I can't expect an overnight miracle ( though it would , of course be very welcome! )

I don't have the George's Aloe Vera yet.. It would appear to have gone AWOL.

I think that part of my impatience is down to feeling that I need to make Dylan's diet complete sooner rather than later.

I will gird my loins for whatever Dylan decides to at me tomorrow.

I completely understand where you are with your girl. When something has been so hard fought it so much more precious!


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## Pepperpots

It's such a slow process. If it makes you feel better, I have fairly bad ibs and although it is tons better, it's not going to go away. I've learnt to live with it and it doesn't bother me too much. I'm sure Dylan feels the same way. Sometimes all you can do is manage something - and that's enough. You probably feel worse about it than him! I know Philip is never going to have a 'normal' stomach, but he's fine in the himself, so that'll do.

Thanks for your Cash vibes. We seem to be working slightly towards more solid poo, at last. Not sure if it's the food or the fourth day of Panacur that's helping. I suspect the Panacur, given raw didn't make much difference. Either way, it's a relief.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> It's such a slow process. If it makes you feel better, I have fairly bad ibs and although it is tons better, it's not going to go away. I've learnt to live with it and it doesn't bother me too much. I'm sure Dylan feels the same way. Sometimes all you can do is manage something - and that's enough. You probably feel worse about it than him! I know Philip is never going to have a 'normal' stomach, but he's fine in the himself, so that'll do.
> 
> Thanks for your Cash vibes. We seem to be working slightly towards more solid poo, at last. Not sure if it's the food or the fourth day of Panacur that's helping. I suspect the Panacur, given raw didn't make much difference. Either way, it's a relief.


Excellent news about Cash. It would be useful to know what has helped him, though the improvement is all that matters.

I have 30 years experience of IBS too . I think that makes it worse because I understand how Dylan must feel at times, although he rarely shows it.

On a brighter note , he hasn't vomited today so far. I suppose I'm bound to get more vomiting whilst challenging him with new dietary ingredients. I've had a short chat with someone in the US who also has an ultra sensitive cat. She's told me that , for her cat, progress was very slow to start with but has gathered pace as she's continued to feed raw. I'm determined to continue with the raw long term. It just *has *to be better for him . After all, 4 years of countless meds and different commercial diets have done nothing but accompany a relentless decline. Maybe he won't improve but I have to give him the opportunity to.


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## Pepperpots

I'm quite surprised that after only five days, his coat has lost some of its extra gorgeous shine. That he had that on raw turkey breast only, is quite amazing. I've got two weeks worth of this food, so I'll reintroduce the raw slowly in a weeks time, if he is ok. If I can get him to tolerate Felini, my life would be a lot easier. Ideally he'd be on a mix of wet and raw.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> I'm quite surprised that after only five days, his coat has lost some of its extra gorgeous shine. That he had that on raw turkey breast only, is quite amazing. I've got two weeks worth of this food, so I'll reintroduce the raw slowly in a weeks time, if he is ok. If I can get him to tolerate Felini, my life would be a lot easier. Ideally he'd be on a mix of wet and raw.


I don't like those GI foods but I imagine that Cash will have lost nutrients through having dire rear , irrespective of what he has been eating. I have very little experience with cats who suffer from dire rear - Dylan vomits, however would it be worth asking your vet whether Cash might benefit from electrolytes ? They might help to replace nutrients which are being lost. Fingers crossed that your little one will be fully fit again in no time.


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## Pepperpots

The GI food should have extra nutrients in it. I know it's formulated to be calorific in small amounts.
Raw just gives a special shine that you don't seem to get with any other food.
He's still putting on weight, luckily, and has always had a lot of energy.


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## Pepperpots

And back to runny poo, with no change in food or meds. Typical!


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## urbantigers

I can't offer any constructive advice but but I hope things improve for both of you.

Mosi's problems are minor by comparison but he has diarrhoea rather than vomiting. Have to say I only partially regret feeding him RC GI for a while as I do feel it stabilised him before transitioning to raw. It's possible he'd have been fine on raw from the start but I went GI food, single protein wet food elimination diet, raw. I'm pretty happy with where we are now and there's no way of knowing whether it would have worked out the same if I'd missed out any of those steps.

I returned home to skid marks all over floors on Saturday so poo consistency still not right all of the time! I've discovered another ready made raw that he seems (seemed) to like - Kiezebrink quail mix - but today he decided he wasn't ready for just that and nothing else mixed in with it. He had a few mouthfuls then abandoned it. He's currently mithering me to death with paws and licks and trying to persuade me to give him something else but he should know by now what a meanie I am when it comes to food - eat what's given or wait until the next meal. yes I know, I'm so mean.


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> I can't offer any constructive advice but but I hope things improve for both of you.
> 
> Mosi's problems are minor by comparison but he has diarrhoea rather than vomiting. Have to say I only partially regret feeding him RC GI for a while as I do feel it stabilised him before transitioning to raw. It's possible he'd have been fine on raw from the start but I went GI food, single protein wet food elimination diet, raw. I'm pretty happy with where we are now and there's no way of knowing whether it would have worked out the same if I'd missed out any of those steps.
> 
> I returned home to skid marks all over floors on Saturday so poo consistency still not right all of the time! I've discovered another ready made raw that he seems (seemed) to like - Kiezebrink quail mix - but today he decided he wasn't ready for just that and nothing else mixed in with it. He had a few mouthfuls then abandoned it. He's currently mithering me to death with paws and licks and trying to persuade me to give him something else but he should know by now what a meanie I am when it comes to food - eat what's given or wait until the next meal. yes I know, I'm so mean.


Thank you.

I think that I must have tried pretty much every single protein wet - through kangaroo, goat, reindeer, etc, and almost all of the GI foods mostly wet, some dry before coming back to the idea of raw. I was lucky that Dylan decided that he'd try the raw this time. I've tried at times in the past and he wouldn't entertain it although he used to eat raw chicken wings as a kitten.

Sorry to hear about the "blip" in the urbantigers' household. Is it possible that Mosi may have pinched something he was not meant to eat ? I hope that he'll soon be back to his normal consistency.


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## chillminx

@Forester, hi  . As you're transferring Dylan to a raw diet to see it will help his symptoms, I wondered if you have considered feeding him raw small rodents, including squirrel, birds such as pigeon, pheasant, and possibly rabbit. It is possible nowadays to buy these meats from some raw food suppliers and I have actually tried my boy who has FAD (dermatitis) on some of these meats. (He liked pigeon meat, squirrel and rabbit, but not pheasant).


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> @Forester, hi  . As you're transferring Dylan to a raw diet to see it will help his symptoms, I wondered if you have considered feeding him raw small rodents, including squirrel, birds such as pigeon, pheasant, and possibly rabbit. It is possible nowadays to buy these meats from some raw food suppliers and I have actually tried my boy who has FAD (dermatitis) on some of these meats. (He liked pigeon meat, squirrel and rabbit, but not pheasant).


Hi @chillminx . Many thanks for your suggestions .

If I'm honest I dream of being able to feed Dylan whole prey. I do plan to eventually try him with products from the raw meat suppliers though I suspect that we are still some time away from being able to do that with much chance of success.

The problem with Dylan isn't what he will eat- at the moment I think that he would eat any meat put in front of him, but what he is able to tolerate. When I fed cooked rabbit, along with RC Sensitivity Control in the past he wasn't able to cope with the organs. He also didn't cope with the organs ( or was it the eggshell ???? ) a few weeks back when I tried adding raw organs plus eggshell to his raw meat. I've been advised on the Raw for IBD Fb group that many cats are unable to tolerate raw organs ( particularly liver ) when first transitioning to raw. Freeze dried liver is however more widely tolerated. In the diet that I'm attempting to " build" for Dylan I plan to start with FD liver.

Incidentally, I did once have a plan to try Dylan with a raw mouse which I purchased , frozen, from a local reptile rescue. Said mouse was hidden away in the freezer until OH was not around. It is a good job that OH doesn't go to the freezer as I fear that it wouldn't have been good for his heart. At an appropriate time, Mousie was removed from the freezer and placed above a radiator to thaw out. Stupid me thought that it would be best fed at body temperature. Well, when Mousie was " cooked" he was thrown , literally, to Dylan on the safety of the kitchen tiles. Dylan ignored him completely. I then found a sharp knife and slit the skin thinking that the smell of raw meat might be an attractant. I could not have been more wrong. The *stench *from the innards of the mouse was gut wrenching. I had to hold my breath whilst scooping up Mousie and taking him outside to our wheelie bin. I know that my mistake was to thaw the mouse on the radiator but the incident has put me off trying to feed mice again. It would also have been extremely expensive. To the best of my memory our mouse was about £1.50 and I guess that I'd have needed to feed about 15 a day- I love Dylan with all my heart but that would be out of the question.

By the way CM. I know that you weren't suggesting that I feed Dylan mice. I just thought that my story was relevant and might lighten the mood of this depressing thread a little.

29/8/17
Dylan has been on raw pork shoulder and limestone flour for 5 days and seems much improved over how he was with the pork plus eggshell. I'm keen to get taurine added to the diet soon so have asked for advice from the Fb group.

Oh, and we had a perfect looking poo last night. Just the right consistency. It is a shame that Dylan is still needing lactulose 3 times a day but I'm hopeful that I'll be able to reduce it once I can get some organ into his diet. This poo had taken 6 days to produce but Dylan hadn't shown any signs of discomfort at all. He *would *have been taken to the vets today had he not produced last night.


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## Forester

I've added taurine to Dylan's diet today - 250 mg per day split between several meals. I could have made life easier by buying smaller capsules, I bought 1000mg, but it is working just fine. I'm glad that I have the small weight scales though. The contents of 1 capsule weight 1.04g so I've split that into 4 separate foil wraps and am sprinkling the contents of one of them onto today's meals.

I prefer to add the supplements to each meal just before serving. This way I know that I'm not going to waste meat if an ingredient proves to be problematic.

Dylan was sick twice last Saturday but has otherwise been fine since I abandoned the eggshell calcium 6 days ago.


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## Pepperpots

Excellent news.


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## Forester

@Pepperpots , I'm so pleased to hear that Cash seems to be on the mend. Fingers crossed that you can get him back onto a fully complete raw diet quickly. As a growing kitten it is vital that he doesn't go long without essential nutrients.

Dylan vomited this morning and seems a bit flat. Never mind, I'm pretty sure that we're moving in the right direction.

Today I'm due to update my vet on Dylan's current situation. I'm pretty sure that he'll be amazed that Dilly is gaining weight on only a fraction of the quantity of wet food he was consuming before the transition started.


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## Pepperpots

I'm absolutely stunned in the difference in just one week. Not sure his body can utilise all the crap in the food, perhaps? I had the opposite issue when P had it for a short time in the past. It settles his stomach but he put too much weight on. Can't win with cats! 

The vet will be very pleased with Dylan. Does he need to put more weight on, or is he about right now?


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## Forester

@Pepperpots. I think that Dylan is about right now. If he didn't have digestive issues I suspect that some vets might accuse him of carrying a bit too much .The suitcase that he's carrying below his belly is quite well packed. He does still have a waist - just!

I'm much happier now that we have a little bit extra. I was very worried about him earlier in the year when he was losing weight despite eating 5 x 85g pouches in a day.

My vet *did* sound quite pleased with our progress report.

This is our third day on pork plus limestone flour plus taurine. Progress may be painfully slow but we are getting there !

Fingers crossed that Cash is continuing to improve and will soon be the little carnivore he was meant to be.


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## Pepperpots

Slow but steady is good.
Cash is very happy to be getting some raw meat and tummy is fine, so far.


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## Forester

Day 4 of pork plus limestone flour plus taurine. Dylan vomited a huge amount of hair this morning accompanied by a small amount of raw.I don't think that it's a reaction to the taurine, more down to the quantity of hair in his stomach. It was the most hair I've ever seen him vomit at one time.

I noticed last night that his coat is starting to shine again - it went very dull when he was having just poached pork.


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## urbantigers

That sounds like really good progress 

I am in the process of trying to work out what supplements I should add (like taurine, probiotics). Kito can eat just about anything and Mosi is being brilliant with eating things (as long as very small pieces) but I still haven't got the poo consistency right. He is pooing ok - he did one today that was perfect consistency - but he can't get it out properly. I can't think of a better way to describe it. He is not straining much to poo and isn't distressed by it but he still needs more than one trip to the tray and he's long haired so bits are getting tangled in his fur and then we have scooting and skid marks on the carpet. We had poo on carpet this morning - not deliberately just fell from his bum after he'd exited the tray. He's never had problems with poo getting on his bum fur before, it's only since raw. I have started adding a little goose fat to some meals but not been terribly consistent.

Sorry this is off topic and hijacking your thread somewhat but I had a bit of a breakthrough with rabbit yesterday. Kito vomited after rabbit when I fed it previously but I gave them some Purrform rabbit accidentally yesterday. I thought it was chicken as that's what the box said and only afterwards when I noticed it was rabbit did I realise that I'd but the contents of 2 boxes in the 1 labelled chicken. Both ate it with no after effects. Mosi ate the pieces of bone which really surprised me as he generally refuses stuff like that.


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## Pepperpots

Poor Dylan and his hair. Hopefully he's got rid of the worst of it now. It can't have been helping any stomach irritation.
Cash is doing well. Don't know if it's the raw, but he's had so much more energy today.
Bagged up a months worth of pork shoulder and turkey in little heat sealed packs, so at least it's easy on a day to day basis. Still not adding Felini this week, but he's getting 50% of the GI food still.


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> That sounds like really good progress
> 
> I am in the process of trying to work out what supplements I should add (like taurine, probiotics). Kito can eat just about anything and Mosi is being brilliant with eating things (as long as very small pieces) but I still haven't got the poo consistency right. He is pooing ok - he did one today that was perfect consistency - but he can't get it out properly. I can't think of a better way to describe it. He is not straining much to poo and isn't distressed by it but he still needs more than one trip to the tray and he's long haired so bits are getting tangled in his fur and then we have scooting and skid marks on the carpet. We had poo on carpet this morning - not deliberately just fell from his bum after he'd exited the tray. He's never had problems with poo getting on his bum fur before, it's only since raw. I have started adding a little goose fat to some meals but not been terribly consistent.
> 
> Sorry this is off topic and hijacking your thread somewhat but I had a bit of a breakthrough with rabbit yesterday. Kito vomited after rabbit when I fed it previously but I gave them some Purrform rabbit accidentally yesterday. I thought it was chicken as that's what the box said and only afterwards when I noticed it was rabbit did I realise that I'd but the contents of 2 boxes in the 1 labelled chicken. Both ate it with no after effects. Mosi ate the pieces of bone which really surprised me as he generally refuses stuff like that.


I wish that I was confident enough in my knowledge to be able to advise you on supplements but unfortunately I'm not. Have you tried that Raw for IBD and Cats Completely Raw and Proud ( Cat Crap ) Fb groups. I've found the folks on there to be really knowledgeable and helpful. There are also loads of files for reference purposes.

Great news that Kito was fine with the rabbit. Maybe he's healed enough inside to be able to take it now. I understand that, given time, many cats do become able to tolerate proteins which might once have been a problem. I hope that he continues to improve..


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Poor Dylan and his hair. Hopefully he's got rid of the worst of it now. It can't have been helping any stomach irritation.
> Cash is doing well. Don't know if it's the raw, but he's had so much more energy today.
> Bagged up a months worth of pork shoulder and turkey in little heat sealed packs, so at least it's easy on a day to day basis. Still not adding Felini this week, but he's getting 50% of the GI food still.
> View attachment 323695


I'm glad that the hair was ejected though I wonder how much more is there. When referred to Langford Dylan's stomach was given a clean bill of health, it is the rest of his digestive tract which is b*gg**ed. The hair lodges in his stomach due to poor motility, exacerbated by the fibrosis. Unfortunately poor motility is often addressed with the use of egg yolk or egg yolk lecithin. With Dylan being unable to tolerate eggs I'm a bit stuck there.

I hope that Cash continues to improve.


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## chillminx

@urbantigers - just quickly wanted to say that incomplete evacuation is one symptom of constipation. Maybe increase the amount of heart in his raw food (as heart is loosening to the bowel). Do you add egg yolk to his raw ? It contains choline which helps with bowel motility.

Apologies for butting in @Forester.


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> @urbantigers - just quickly wanted to say that incomplete evacuation is one symptom of constipation. Maybe increase the amount of heart in his raw food (as heart is loosening to the bowel). Do you add egg yolk to his raw ? It contains choline which helps with bowel motility.
> 
> Apologies for butting in @Forester.


Nothing to apologise for @chillminx . TBH You came to my rescue. I was feeling bad because I couldn't help @urbantigers myself.


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## Forester

One week into pork plus limestone flour plus taurine. Dylan was sick this morning. That makes 3 vomits during the last week , no better or worse than usual.

I'd been thinking of introducing the FD chicken liver but have decided to wait until the beginning of next week. The Raw for IBD group recommend 2 weeks between introductions . This should allow time for any adverse reaction to the taurine to be identified before the liver is started. I'm desperate to get liver included but can't risk him reacting and being in the position where I don't know what he is reacting to. We don't have the time to take the transition back again.

I've had my calculation of how much FD chicken liver to use approved so , when I start it I'll include details of how to do the calculation as well as a link to a " quick calculator".


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## Guest

I was so curious about the 'ending' I did a very naughty thing and read the last page before reading the middle - seems positive! I'm glad


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## Forester

whompingwillow said:


> I was so curious about the 'ending' I did a very naughty thing and read the last page before reading the middle - seems positive! I'm glad


The idea behind the thread was to detail the transition to a fully complete raw diet with all of the difficulties encountered along the way. We're well on the journey but still have some way to go. I know that a fully complete raw diet is extremely unlikely to be the end of Dylan's problems. I suspect that it will be more like the end of the beginning than the beginning of the end however I do feel that it will be progress, something we haven't yet encountered . Prior to starting this transition we've had 4 years of dietary and medication trials which haven't helped at all.

Thank you.


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## Guest

Forester said:


> The idea behind the thread was to detail the transition to a fully complete raw diet with all of the difficulties encountered along the way. We're well on the journey but still have some way to go. I know that a fully complete raw diet is extremely unlikely to be the end of Dylan's problems. I suspect that it will be more like the end of the beginning than the beginning of the end however I do feel that it will be progress, something we haven't yet encountered . Prior to starting this transition we've had 4 years of dietary and medication trials which haven't helped at all.
> 
> Thank you.


It really is quite the journey and you document it well.

Big good luck to you both

I am finding it very helpful for myself also, so thank you.


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## Forester

This is probably our most positive update so far. Dylan has only vomited twice in each of the last two weeks. Yes, that is two *consecutive *weeks.. He has a habit of suddenly throwing in a week of reduced vomiting then returning to his usual pattern , but this is two weeks one straight after the other. He looks great- the shine has returned to his coat since taurine was introduced to his diet and he's carrying more weight than he has in a long time. He might actually be a bit overweight  but it will give us a bit of a buffer.

I've introduced a very small quantity of freeze dried chicken liver today. Including this in his diet makes me feel much happier. I've been trying to suppress my concern but have been worried that he's gone so long without any organ . To provide the equivalent of 5% fresh liver in Dylan's diet I need to add approx. 3g FD chicken liver daily. I'll show how to calculate this below. I'm starting with just 0.25g today, crumbled to dust and divided evenly between his meals. The plan is to introduce it very gradually.

Here's a link to instructions on how to calculate how much FD liver to use

.http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/using-freeze-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh.html

There is also a calculator which will do the maths for you 

http://jsfiddle.net/9romx9jc/embedded/result/

If you want to do the maths yourself I'll illustrate how I arrived at my total for Dylan.

Dylan eats approximately 6oz raw per day. If wanting to include 5% liver ( I plan to add another organ as soon as possible ) he needs to have 0.3oz fresh raw liver each day.

When calculating quantities of FD liver you need to know whether your FD liver was raw or cooked before it was freeze dried. I'm using Thrive FD chicken liver which I've been advised by e-mail was cooked.

Cooked chicken liver is 66.8% moisture ( figure from article above ) and Thrive FD liver is 5.5% moisture ( details on pack ).

To get the amount of FD liver ( in oz ) required we need to take the percentage of fresh liver solids ( 100%-66.8% ) , divide it by the percentage of freeze dried solids ( 100%-5.5% ), then multiply the result by the weight of fresh liver required. For this example we calculate (32.2 divided by 94.5) then multiply by 0.3.
This gives us how much FD liver we need in ounces. In this case our answer is 0.1022oz of FD chicken liver.
As we're using such a small quantity of FD liver it is easier to work in grams . With 28.35g per oz we get 0.1022 x 28.35g = 2.897g

With liver it isn't essential to be precise to 3 decimal points so we'll call that 3g.

Of course it is easier to use the calculator above, particularly as it already has the figures for dry matter ingredients embedded.

Fingers crossed than anyone who needs to understand my calculation above can do so.:Nailbiting


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## urbantigers

That all sounds very positive!


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> That all sounds very positive!


I'm trying not to get too upbeat because that is usually the signal for an immediate downturn , but I think that Dylan's future is finally starting to look a little brighter.


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## urbantigers

It's definitely a case of 2 steps forward and one step back (sometimes feels like the opposite) but you are making great progress.

I have been adding a small amount of goose fat to Mosi's meals and it seems to be helping his poo so fingers crossed we are happier here too.


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> It's definitely a case of 2 steps forward and one step back (sometimes feels like the opposite) but you are making great progress.
> 
> I have been adding a small amount of goose fat to Mosi's meals and it seems to be helping his poo so fingers crossed we are happier here too.


Great news that the added dietary fat is working for Mosi.

Apologies for late reply , I've only just seen this .


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## Forester

Yesterday I was feeling pretty positive . Dylan was sick but had gone 6 days since the last time. It is not all that long ago that he was vomiting 3 days a week. He also presented me with a rather acceptable looking poo- just the right consistency, despite me reducing his lactulose slightly. I think that the FD liver, even though he's not having anywhere near enough, must be keeping things moving.

I also weighed him and had rather a shock. He is now 5.65kg!!!!!. He was 4.56kg in April . He needed some extra weight but not quite this much ( some people are never happy !) I'm going to drop the cetirizine as it makes him ravenous until I discus the situation with my vet. Dylan's waist appears to be a thing of the past.

Today he has been sick again. I have a feeling that he may be reacting to the FD chicken liver. He's never been good with cooked chicken, and is even worse with cooked turkey ,but I'd been advised that FD chicken liver is usually more easily tolerated than other forms. I'm waiting for advice from the Raw for IBD forum but am considering getting some cod liver oil to try as a liver substitute. He's been 7 weeks without vit.A and vit.D which concerns me.


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## Pepperpots

Have you tried him on pigs liver, if he is ok with pork? Could you cook or dehydrate it for him?
So sorry it's being so tricky for you.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Yesterday I was feeling pretty positive . Dylan was sick but had gone 6 days since the last time. It is not all that long ago that he was vomiting 3 days a week. He also presented me with a rather acceptable looking poo- just the right consistency, despite me reducing his lactulose slightly. I think that the FD liver, even though he's not having anywhere near enough, must be keeping things moving.
> 
> I also weighed him and had rather a shock. He is now 5.65kg!!!!!. He was 4.56kg in April . He needed some extra weight but not quite this much ( some people are never happy !) I'm going to drop the cetirizine as it makes him ravenous until I discus the situation with my vet. Dylan's waist appears to be a thing of the past.
> 
> Today he has been sick again. I have a feeling that he may be reacting to the FD chicken liver. He's never been good with cooked chicken, and is even worse with cooked turkey ,but I'd been advised that FD chicken liver is usually more easily tolerated than other forms. I'm waiting for advice from the Raw for IBD forum but am considering getting some cod liver oil to try as a liver substitute. He's been 7 weeks without vit.A and vit.D which concerns me.


So he was on it the FD liver four days before he vomited, and that was yesterday? And then another vomit today? I wouldn't be in a rush to blame the liver. He went SIX DAYS total! That is HUGE! His reaction to egg products was much quicker than that wasn't it?. And the vomiting isn't likely to go away completely.

Two days in a row may just be the pattern, after the extended 6 days. Too much fur built up, causing it mabe. I am just guessing of course, because of my girl's experiences and patterns, when she goes for extended (for her) periods with no vomit. If she goes 10 days, she generally pukes two days in a row after. If she goes 19 or 20 days (rare, but it happens) she pukes four days in a row after. Sometimes there's fur, sometimes not.

it's all motility related, in my opinion.

But..with Dylan and his food sensitivities, maybe you're right. You have to go with your gut. xx


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Have you tried him on pigs liver, if he is ok with pork? Could you cook or dehydrate it for him?
> So sorry it's being so tricky for you.


I have tried pigs liver. Unfortunately it was in an organ/eggshell mix which I used when I first tried Dylan with raw. At the time the founders of the Raw for IBD Fb group and I assumed that it was the pigs liver which caused the problem. I now know that eggshell is a problem so it is possible that he may have been O K with the pigs liver. I'm considering getting some more pigs liver, ( I threw the original supply away ), cooking and trying to dry it myself in the freezer so that I can try him with it again. My big concern is that time is moving on and he's still not on a complete diet. I need to find a source of VIT A and D which he can take , even if it is only a temporary source, without a lot more trial and error.

As for the transition being problematic - I always knew that it wouldn't be easy, after all - this is Dylan . He's worth it a hundred times over.


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## urbantigers

I agree not to be too quick to assume the FD liver is a problem. I would give him a bit longer on that to get a better picture of the overall pattern. 6 days without vomiting is great.

Know what you mean about weight - Mosi is fine but when he was poorly he dropped to 3.9kg and I think he may have been lower (but not weighed) so I was delighted when he weighed in at 4.4 last time he was at the vets. That's his fighting weight but I'm happy for him to be a bit more as he's quite a skinny cat - you just can't tell under all the fluff.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> So he was on it the FD liver four days before he vomited, and that was yesterday? And then another vomit today? I wouldn't be in a rush to blame the liver. He went SIX DAYS total! That is HUGE! His reaction to egg products was much quicker than that wasn't it?. And the vomiting isn't likely to go away completely.
> 
> Two days in a row may just be the pattern, after the extended 6 days. Too much fur built up, causing it mabe. I am just guessing of course, because of my girl's experiences and patterns, when she goes for extended (for her) periods with no vomit. If she goes 10 days, she generally pukes two days in a row after. If she goes 19 or 20 days (rare, but it happens) she pukes four days in a row after. Sometimes there's fur, sometimes not.
> 
> it's all motility related, in my opinion.
> 
> But..with Dylan and his food sensitivities, maybe you're right. You have to go with your gut. xx


Dylan has always had the ability to suddenly throw in anything up to a week without vomiting for no apparent reason. He doesn't tend to do short term patterns . Nevertheless I know that we *are *making progress. Dylan used to average 3 per week but we've now had just 2 vomits per week in the last 3 weeks .

Dylan's reactions can be immediate but they are just as likely to start several days into a new introduction. With the egg yolk lecithin he vomited on day 2, 4 ,5, 7( twice ). When I stopped the EYL he went 6 days without vomiting. With the eggshell he vomited day 2 ( 3 times), day 5 (twice) but had spells of nausea on days 3 and 4.

When changing foods in the past Dylan would often be OK with up to 10%- 15% new food but would start to vomit as soon as I exceeded that quantity.

With the FD chicken liver he was OK at 0.25g ( days 1 and 2) , as well as day 3 though he had one nauseous session on day 3. Day 4 ( 0.5g) he was sick once and nauseous once. Today Day 5 ( 0.75g) he's been sick once and looked nauseous once. I _think _that he's reacting though I'll try backing up to 0.4g tomorrow to see what happens.

I *do *agree with you that there is a definite motility issue. With Dylan's nausea sessions I can sometimes prevent him being sick by picking him up and holding him so that he is almost vertical. I think that this allows gravity to assist his food in its movement out of his stomach. He hasn't brought any hair up at all for a while so there could be some lurking. He doesn't seem to be shedding as much as he usually would at this time of year.

Thanks for your incredible support. It means such a lot.


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## Forester

urbantigers said:


> I agree not to be too quick to assume the FD liver is a problem. I would give him a bit longer on that to get a better picture of the overall pattern. 6 days without vomiting is great.
> 
> Know what you mean about weight - Mosi is fine but when he was poorly he dropped to 3.9kg and I think he may have been lower (but not weighed) so I was delighted when he weighed in at 4.4 last time he was at the vets. That's his fighting weight but I'm happy for him to be a bit more as he's quite a skinny cat - you just can't tell under all the fluff.


Thanks . I'm going to back up to 0.4g FDliver tomorrow and see what happens. He needs to get to 3.0 g for 5% or 6g if I don't feed another organ so we have a long way to go. I've just been wondering whether trying cod liver oil for a while might allow him to boost his depleted reserves of Vits A and D before going back to trying liver again.

I'm glad to hear that Mosi is at his fighting weight or slightly above. Dylan now has plenty in reserve and is becoming somewhat lazy. He also answers to " Porker".LOL


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## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> I also weighed him and had rather a shock. He is now 5.65kg!!!!!. He was 4.56kg in April . He needed some extra weight but not quite this much ( some people are never happy !) I'm going to drop the cetirizine as it makes him ravenous until I discus the situation with my vet. Dylan's waist appears to be a thing of the past.


Oh Dylan you handsome big pudding  Tell your mum there is no pleasing some people!!!


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> Oh Dylan you handsome big pudding  Tell your mum there is no pleasing some people!!!


Yes, he's quite a hunk . I wouldn't be so concerned if the weight gain had been gradual but over 1kg in 4 months . Surely it can't be good for his liver????? I know that it's down to the cetirizine which my vet would like me to continue with but the effect on Dylan's appetite is a bit OTT. At one point he was eating 425g JWB lamb *and *20g raw lamb in a day and still constantly pestering for food.

I am quietly pleased . I'd much rather this than the slightly scraggy boy I had in April. At that point he was eating about 400g JWB lamb daily and still losing weight.

Fatso would be happy to be half as good looking as the stunning Rosso! xx


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## Forester

I now have pigs liver in the freezer ready to try if Dylan doesn't tolerate the FD chicken liver.

I did have a convoluted plan to freeze dry the pigs liver but I've now been advised that it wouldn't work- I would lose most of the nutrients I'm trying to get into him. I knew that building a raw diet from scratch was going to be a steep learning curve but it is proving to be like the north face of the Eiger.

Anyway, I've reduced Dylan's FD chicken liver for today back down to 0.4g and he hasn't been sick today - yet. Only time will tell. . . I may be spending loads of time chopping meat but at least I'm not getting bored - every day is different and has its own challenges.


----------



## Forester

Yesterday Dylan was rather subdued as well as reluctant to eat. I eventually resorted to Fortiflora in order to ensure that he did eat. I intended to give 0.5g CL mixed in with today's food but he's just been sick so that plan has been aborted. I've given him the tiniest piece of pigs liver in with his re feed. Now to see whether he's any better with pigs liver than he is with the FD chicken liver.


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## chillminx

Hi, if you are going to give Dylan a Cod Liver Oil supplement for his Vitamin A needs (as he is not getting on with the liver), I recommend one that has been cold pressed as it will retain the nutrients better than one has been heated. The type of cod liver oil one can buy in pharmacists and the like has been heated and often smells rancid!

This company's products are excellent. (I have bought various products from them including eye care, and some of their canned foods)

https://www.aniforte.co.uk/collections/cats/products/cod-liver-oil-the-natural-conditioner-100ml


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> Hi, if you are going to give Dylan a Cod Liver Oil supplement for his Vitamin A needs (as he is not getting on with the liver), I recommend one that has been cold pressed as it will retain the nutrients better than one has been heated. The type of cod liver oil one can buy in pharmacists and the like has been heated and often smells rancid!
> 
> This company's products are excellent. (I have bought various products from them including eye care, and some of their canned foods)
> 
> https://www.aniforte.co.uk/collections/cats/products/cod-liver-oil-the-natural-conditioner-100ml


Thanks CM. I'm clinging to the hope that it was the eggshell which Dylan reacted to when I tried him with the eggshell + pigs liver + pigs kidney + pigs heart added to his meat. Maybe, just maybe he might be O K with pigs liver if I go very slowly.

I will keep your recommendation in mind if I do resort to trying Dylan with cod liver oil. Since my post yesterday I've been doing some research and it seems that there is a huge variation in the amounts of Vits A and D contained in different brands. Clearly I don't want to overdose . I believe that, should I decide to try cod liver oil, I can safely give up to 1250 iu per day. Do you have any idea how I would establish that quantity of the product you have linked to ?


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## chillminx

The dosage instructions say 1 ml twice a week. But they say it can be mixed into "wet, raw or dry food", so it seems they are making allowance for the fact that wet food (and dry ) would already contain the RDA vitamin A and I assume that 2 mls a week would be a low dose.

Vetbook says the RDA of Vitamin A for cats is 24.7 ug per day (ug being the same as mcg). According to my quick calculation 24.7 mcg = about 2 mls ((but please check my arithmetic!)

So it sounds as though if the only vitamin A Dylan was getting was from the cod liver oil he would need more than the 2 mls a week advised by the Aniforte website.

http://vetbook.org/wiki/cat/index.php?title=Feline_Nutrition

Just to add - my own cats with IBD have never been able to tolerate any lamb heart or pig heart without vomiting. They were OK on cooked chicken heart and cooked turkey heart but Dylan does not get on with turkey, as I recall... Mine are OK with chicken livers and lamb kidney, both of which I flash fry in goose fat.


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## chillminx

I just had a thought....I know you have tried so many things and you may well have already tried this... have you tried feeding Dylan from a raised dish? I remember when my last cat with CKD had a lot of acid problems (in his case not due to iBD but due to his CKD), he often used to regurgitate his food until I got him a raised bowl. Then it stopped.

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_bowls_feeders/raised_cat_bowls/365637

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_bowls_feeders/raised_cat_bowls/600326

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2322...=9046051&device=c&campaignid=856331929&crdt=0


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> I just had a thought....I know you have tried so many things and you may well have already tried this... have you tried feeding Dylan from a raised dish? I remember when my last cat with CKD had a lot of acid problems (in his case not due to iBD but due to his CKD), he often used to regurgitate his food until I got him a raised bowl. Then it stopped.
> 
> http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_bowls_feeders/raised_cat_bowls/365637
> 
> http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_bowls_feeders/raised_cat_bowls/600326
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2322...=9046051&device=c&campaignid=856331929&crdt=0


Thanks CM we've tried raised bowls as well as slow and ultra slow feeders. I once visited a pro raw/ homeopathic/ conventional vet who initially thought that Dylan was regurgitating and got me feeding him off a " step system" where his body was almost vertical when he ate. None of it helped in the slightest. That happened before Dylan was referred to Langford and we learnt about the sad state of his GI system. He has eosinophilic IBD with fibrosis *as well as *neutrophilic IBD *and *lymphoplasmacytic IBD with fibrosis. Short of lymphoma it couldn't be much worse.

Despite my previous paragraph I'm sure that we've made considerable progress with the , as yet incomplete , raw diet. We've not only halted the deterioration, which not even high doses of immunosuppressants had any effect on, but he *is *improving. The rate of vomiting has been lower in the last three weeks than it has been for quite some time. We are moving in the right direction even though it is extremely frustrating, and painfully slow. I doubt that I'll ever completely eliminate Dylan's vomiting but I'm confident that the raw diet is the best thing I've ever done for him.


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## Forester

It looks as though adding liver to Dylan's diet won't be as easy as I'd hoped. Silly me, how could I begin to imagine that it would go relatively smoothly ? He's refusing to eat the tiniest slivers of liver unless they're smothered in Fortiflora and when he does he looks nauseous. I was trying to give 1.3g today, down from yesterday's 1.9g in the hope that a more gradual introduction would help. Yesterday he looked nauseous , today he has already vomited once.

I know, I know, vomiting is what he does and he's an expert at it. This is not a deterioration, its just a blip ,or even just a maintenance of the status quo, and only to be expected. I suppose I should just admire the accuracy of his ejection off the top of my kitchen cupboards, right onto my pile of ironing. Never mind , he's negated the need for ironing just yet - it's all back in the machine !

I *will *get Dylan onto a complete raw diet if it kills me. Patience and perseverance will win out in the end, or so I'm telling myself.


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## Forester

I withdrew the raw pigs liver from Dylan's diet yesterday, planning to give him 36 hours before reassessing the situation. My Raw for IBD Fb mentors have agreed that this was the right thing to do. It seems that I'm catching on regarding recommended actions , though that is not a lot of consolation for the setback. Dylan seems much more comfortable now and is eating with enthusiasm again.

It has been suggested that I try using the liver cooked, for introduction purposes only. I've saved some pork fat from the meat I chopped and froze into portions this morning so plan to try frying a little of the liver in that. I will retain and feed any juices which come out of the liver so that I lose as little as possible of the nutrients. Plan D for introducing liver will be started on Friday morning.

For reference purposes :-
Plan A was a pigs liver/ pigs kidney/ pigs heart/ eggshell mix.
Plan B was freeze dried chicken liver.
Plan C was raw pigs liver
Plan D - cooked pigs liver- this can only be a temporary measure as nutrients will be destroyed during the cooking.

ETA Dylan's back end is working much better now. He's down to 1ml lactulose twice daily and is pooing approximately every third day. Poo is hard but seems to be produced without too much effort. The volume for 3 days is about 1/4 of that which he used to produce every day. There is no smell at all.


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## Forester

Dylan refuses to eat his food if it contains the pigs liver which I so lovingly fried for him unless it is completely plastered in fortiflora. Ungrateful boy !

ETA, now he's deposited it onto the hall carpet. Urghhh.


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## Pepperpots

That would be a no, then!
Just about to try Cash on the mixed minced offal from PaleoRidge. Revolting stuff, but Philip used to be fine on it, but not with bigger lumps. To be honest, I'm expecting the squits again, so shall add tiny amounts.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan refuses to eat his food if it contains the pigs liver which I so lovingly fried for him unless it is completely plastered in fortiflora. Ungrateful boy !
> 
> ETA, now he's deposited it onto the hall carpet. Urghhh.


So sorry! {{hug}}


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> So sorry! {{hug}}


Not your fault :Kiss.

I have to remember that one of the top feline internal medicine specialists in the country has described Dylan as complicated, confusing and challenging.

I have a more positive update this morning, Dylan amazingly ate his 3 night time meals which had tiny ( almost microscopic ) specks of liver added, and that was without the aid of Fortiflora He wasn't sick either. I'm guessing that hunger was a motivator. He only had about 1/2 g liver yesterday instead of the hoped for 1g but he did eat some. It is a start. The vomit may well have been due anyway.

After 4 years of the adventure which is Dylan I'm not about to give up. The show goes on!! ( and probably on , and on, an on.)


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> That would be a no, then!
> Just about to try Cash on the mixed minced offal from PaleoRidge. Revolting stuff, but Philip used to be fine on it, but not with bigger lumps. To be honest, I'm expecting the squits again, so shall add tiny amounts.


Sorry, I've only just seen this . Fingers crossed that Cash gets on with the PaleoRidge. Would it be an idea to give him just the tiniest bit of offal and then increase the quantity very gradually ? I have a feeling that offal is generally loosening. Dylan has definitely been looser even with the tiny amount of liver that he's been having.

Believe it or not this *isn't* a no. It's just a bad day. A no is more than one day of multiple vomits in a short space of time , or daily vomits and discomfort for about a week.


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## Pepperpots

That's what I'm doing - it's frozen in tiny cubes, so will start of with a few grams only. He's also getting a bit of bone in the form of a chicken wing tip, in the hope that will help firm things up.

Best of luck with your little man. As you said, he's a complex case with many variables, so may well be able to tolerate the liver given time.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> That's what I'm doing - it's frozen in tiny cubes, so will start of with a few grams only. He's also getting a bit of bone in the form of a chicken wing tip, in the hope that will help firm things up.
> 
> Best of luck with your little man. As you said, *he's a complex case with many variables, so may well be able to tolerate the liver given time*.


It would help considerably if the little **** would eat the liver !!!! He's refused it point blank since breakfast time.


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## Forester

I tried hiding Dylan's liver *inside* the chunks of pork for his overnight meals . The little horror still managed to eat the pork but spit the liver out. I'm concerned that he's not eating enough when I try to disguise the liver amongst the meat. He vomited breakfast but I think that was down to a grape sized hairball. I've tried " pilling" a small piece of liver just to get some into him but can't get him to consume anywhere near enough this way.

Have ordered this http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/sh...kMf9tMpVnS1s6y5aVwO7u7lX9HdmvkrBoCAsMQAvD_BwE
as it has been recommended on the Cats Completely Raw and Proud Fb group as suitable as an enticement.

I ordered online as I can't get to H and B till Tuesday but have now realised that my goods aren't going to arrive till then anyway. It looks as though Dylan has beaten me for now but I'm determined that he won't do so for long. I just hope that he tolerates the pigs liver if I finally get it into him.


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## Forester

I've been chatting with someone on Fb who has a cat as sensitive as Dylan . Her girl is currently only able to take one protein, calcium carbonate, taurine and cod liver oil. She's advised me to try giving Dylan just a drop of cod liver oil in one meal each day and gradually increase till he's having a whole capsule.It will be interesting to see whether Dylan takes the clo willingly. If he doesn't accept it I will " pill" it for now.If I can't get him to accept Holland and Barrett's clo I will contact the producer of the brand you recommended @chillminx and enquire about the quantity needed to achieve the correct dose.


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## chillminx

Sounds like a good plan Forester


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## Forester

It is a shame that Dylan doesn't seem to believe in co operating with my plans. I gave him one drop of cod liver oil on top of his breakfast, he ate it , then 10 minutes later vomited it back. - no hair in the vomit , just breakfast and clo. :Banghead


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## chillminx

Oh no! That's a pity. Poor Dylan  . I wonder if the vomiting after the CLO could have been a coincidence? Seems a strong immediate reaction to one drop mixed in his food. 

Could it be the smell of the CLO that triggered the vomiting? CLO does smell very fishily strong. Is he intolerant of fish? If so, just the smell of fish can trigger the gag response.


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> Oh no! That's a pity. Poor Dylan  . I wonder if the vomiting after the CLO could have been a coincidence? Seems a strong immediate reaction to one drop mixed in his food.
> 
> Could it be the smell of the CLO that triggered the vomiting? CLO does smell very fishily strong. Is he intolerant of fish? If so, just the smell of fish can trigger the gag response.


Oh CM , I really don't know. It smelt OK to me and he did eat it without any hesitation. I've probably only ever given him anything containing fish 3 times in 4 and a half years. Hi Life tuna came straight back but an Applaws fishy one stayed down. I'm getting pretty frantic now as I just don't know what to do.

Dylan *has *reacted that quickly to foods in the past- projectile vomiting of 1/4 teaspoon of a new food has occurred on several occasions.

It is now 8 weeks since he's had any quantity of Vits A and D I've started a thread to see whether anyone can find me any freeze dried pigs liver for less than this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GIMBORN-Tr...F8&qid=1506341247&sr=8-22&keywords=pork+liver.

If no one can I think I'll probably order the one I've found.
In the meantime I'm going to keep going with the cod liver oil just one drop per day to see what happens. I have another idea to order some dried pigs blood then make a gravy with it and some pureed raw pigs liver.

Any more suggestions are welcome.


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## Forester

I've just given Dylan a small portion of meat with a drop of cod liver oil added. He ate the meat and has now gone back to sleep without vomiting. Things are looking a little better.


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## chillminx

That's a relief! Fingers crossed eh?


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> That's a relief! Fingers crossed eh?


Relief is an understatement!!!!!  At least if he can tolerate the cod liver oil it will give me time to find a liver source which suits him. I'm feeling a bit better this evening. I've been talking with someone who has a cat with about the same level of sensitivity as Dylan . She feeds cod liver oil but says that it did take some time for her cat to be able to cope with it.


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## Forester

Another drop of cod liver oil has been consumed and stayed down. Is it too soon to think that things are looking up?


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## Forester

Today is scheduled to be Dylan's first day with 2 drops of cod liver oil in his meals, one drop in 2 of his 8ish meals. He's been sick twice in the last 24 hours but I plan to stick to our schedule.

This morning's vomit contained a sizeable clump of hair so maybe that has been irritating his system for the last few days. He's becoming more reluctant to eat the food containing the clo . Yesterday I tricked him into eating it using the yeast flakes I bought recently. This morning that method has failed. I confess that I've just placed the piece of meat in his mouth and held it closed till he swallowed. Dylan seems to find obstacles to put in my way at every stage.

I have ordered the freeze dried pigs liver mentioned previously but it isn't due to arrive for another 2 - 4 weeks. I don't want to have to do it but , if Dylan's resistance to the clo continues I may resort to just placing the drops on the back of his tongue .

The period of definite improvement a couple of weeks back really made me think that I was making progress but it is such hard work.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> The period of definite improvement a couple of weeks back really made me think that I was making progress but it is such hard work.


It really is hard work. Dylan IS better, though, right? You know, dropping the clo on his tongue might not be such a bad idea. He may even like it better that way, than mixed with his food. Worth a try? Or even put in a capsule and pilled?


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## Pepperpots

Sorry it's so difficult.
While you're waiting, would he eat tiny bits of the fresh liver if it was frozen, so it didn't smell as much?


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## Forester

@lorilu He *was *definitely better whilst just having pork plus limestone flour plus taurine. It had deteriorated since trying to get liver into him but maybe that is down to continually changing things. I wonder whether the freeze dried chicken liver was enough to increase his inflammation again.

I'm also wondering ( yet again! ) about him picking up on my and OH's anxiety about him. He has barely vomited at night since I shut him out of the bedroom and he's never ever vomited when I'm not here   

Yes I'm guessing that pilling may be the best way to get the clo into him. He is so used to being pilled and it may also prevent him getting suspicious of his food.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Sorry it's so difficult.
> While you're waiting, would he eat tiny bits of the fresh liver if it was frozen, so it didn't smell as much?


Not your fault he likes to do everything the difficult way.

I did try offering *tiny* pieces of frozen liver without luck. I also tried pilling the cooked liver. Unfortunately 7- 10g liver which is what he needs daily will prove just too bulky to get into him that way.
I could probably get a tiny quantity into him that way though. Thanks for the suggestion, knowing Dylan I may have to try it sometime!


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## Pepperpots

It's a tricky one. P refused to eat pieces of liver or kidney, cooked or not. For some reason he was happy to eat the mixed offal mince from Paleo Ridge. Don't know why. It's vile stuff, but contains either beef or lamb liver, so I guess no good for you. When looking at freeze dried for him, I could only find beef or chicken and he's not great with either.


----------



## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> It's a tricky one. P refused to eat pieces of liver or kidney, cooked or not. For some reason he was happy to eat the mixed offal mince from Paleo Ridge. Don't know why. It's vile stuff, but contains either beef or lamb liver, so I guess no good for you. When looking at freeze dried for him, I could only find beef or chicken and he's not great with either.


So long as P likes the mixed offal from Paleo Ridge and it suits him I wouldn't worry too much what it looks like. Does any raw offal look appetising?????

All of the readily available freeze dried liver in the UK appears to be either chicken or beef. Anything else seems to come from the US. I believe that feeding raw liver is always considered superior to feeding freeze dried so long as the cat tolerates it.

I've decided than from now on I'll be adding Dylan's clo to one small piece of meat then placing it straight into his mouth. I'm guessing that it will be less stressful for both of us, well for me anyway!


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> So long as P likes the mixed offal from Paleo Ridge and it suits him I wouldn't worry too much what it looks like. Does any raw offal look appetising?????
> 
> All of the readily available freeze dried liver in the UK appears to be either chicken or beef. Anything else seems to come from the US. I believe that feeding raw liver is always considered superior to feeding freeze dried so long as the cat tolerates it.
> 
> I've decided than from now on I'll be adding Dylan's clo to one small piece of meat then placing it straight into his mouth. I'm guessing that it will be less stressful for both of us, well for me anyway!


All paws crossed this works!


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> All paws crossed this works!


Well, Dylan had a large drop of clo this morning before realising what was going on. I also think that it is less likely to come back this way. IMO 1 tiny piece of meat is less likely to trigger a vomit response than a complete meal though looking at it another way there is less food to dilute the clo.


----------



## Forester

Today I've progressed to giving 3 drops of cod liver oil along with Dylan's pork, limestone flour and taurine. Giving the clo on top of a chunk of meat is like giving candy to a baby.

Dylan has vomited more than usual this week - 4 times so far, but it doesn't feel like a reaction to the clo, more like just a bad week. When he's reacted to dietary components in the past he's been sick either daily or multiple times in a day as well as looking uncomfortable at times. He's spent much of this week upside down waving his legs in the air and demanding chin rubs or tummy tickles.

The Raw for IBD Fb files state that it is safe to give up to 1250IU Vit A per day which equals 1 of the capsules I'm using. I estimate that he's having close to 400IU at the moment so I'm not all that far from giving 550IU, the amount which this website indicates is the minimum requirement for his weight.

http://www.knowyourcat.info/info/vitamins.htm

I will be breathing a huge sigh of relief once Dylan's consumption of vitamins A and D reaches an acceptable level. There is still a lot which needs adding to the diet but we're close to having the most important elements.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> There is still a lot which needs adding to the diet but we're close to having the most important elements.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Paddypaws

Fantastic update, well done Dylan


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Fantastic update, well done Dylan


Whose side are you on @Paddypaws ? So far this transition has felt like a game of chess with me v Dylan's sensitivities and ( at times ) refusal to co operate. There was even a time ( the enema ) when I momentarily questioned whether I was doing the right thing.

I shouldn't berate you PP, even jokingly. I know that Dylan and I would not have got to this stage without you, without @lorilu, and without all the support everyone ( too numerous to mention )has offered on this thread. Dylan is not fully transitioned onto a complete diet yet but we have made progress which , at times, I questioned was even possible. I could not have done this without you all.


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## Paddypaws

You can berate me as often as you like my dear, it's all taken in good cheer. 
My praise for Dylan was slightly tongue in cheek, as of course the praise truly belongs to his devoted skate.


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## Forester

I was jesting @Paddypaws  :Sorry ! I'm so sorry if you didn't realise.:Bag

Thanks for the praise , but I'm only doing what a slave should. Dylan is unable to choose his own diet so I have to do my best for him.

Dylan is still playing chess with me. He hardly ate overnight and flatly refused breakfast until I made a move. It looks as though placing clo onto meat was not a good idea after all. He appears to have decided that all meat will taste of cod liver oil. Yeast flakes as a topper didn't work. Fortiflora got licked off the top of the meat, leaving the meat behind. I resorted to giving him 2.5mg cetirizine, which I've left off recently due to the sudden massive weight gain. I then left him shut in the kitchen with breakfast whilst I did the grocery shopping. The saucer was empty when I returned and I can't find any " returns" so I think that my move has at least kept me in the game.

I'm debating how to get Dylan to take the clo from now on. If I give him a whole capsule once a day will it be too much for his system all at once? Should I squirt out all but one drop of clo then give capsules 3, soon 4 , times a day? I have ordered some empty capsules for pilling purposes but they're not here yet. Every day has its own challenges.


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## Paddypaws

Of course I realised you were jesting my dear, as was I with my responses!
If I had known you wanted empty gel caps I could have sent you some.....from my extensive Cat Health Products store.


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Of course I realised you were jesting my dear, as was I with my responses!
> If I had known you wanted empty gel caps I could have sent you some.....from my extensive Cat Health Products store.


Sorry, I think that I'm a bit stressed about this transition yet again.

Maybe I'm overthinking things trying to anticipate every difficulty before it comes. Thanks for the kind offer of the gel caps, though I'd have declined as I feel that I need my own supply. Even ordering the gel caps involved decision making. Should I order standard gel caps which would contain beef gelatine ( is he OK with beef? ) or do I go for the vegetarian ones which might have carrageenan ?. I went for the ordinary gelatine ones.

I imagine that you* need* an extensive Cat Health Products store. Dylan has 4 cupboard shelves for his supplies , and that doesn't include the litter or the boxes of food under the bed. He also has as much space in the freezer as the humans, though he is , of course , the most important member of the household.


----------



## Forester

Dylan seems to be doing OK with the cod liver oil although dosing has been a little hit and miss. This morning I ended up with a mixture of lactulose and clo squirted over my face!

Luckily the gel caps have now arrived and seem perfect for their intended purpose. Tomorrow I'll be giving 2 drops in the morning and 2 more in the evening. - equivalent to about half a capsule altogether. This transition is starting to feel a whole lot better now although I am conscious that Dylan's appetite has waned a little. He's now eating about 140g per day.

The poo situation also seems to be improving so I'm going to try dropping the lactulose to just 1ml per day. Fingers crossed. . . . .

ETA he was last sick on Saturday morning.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan seems to be doing OK with the cod liver oil although dosing has been a little hit and miss. This morning I ended up with a mixture of lactulose and clo squirted over my face!
> 
> Luckily the gel caps have now arrived and seem perfect for their intended purpose. Tomorrow I'll be giving 2 drops in the morning and 2 more in the evening. - equivalent to about half a capsule altogether. This transition is starting to feel a whole lot better now although I am conscious that Dylan's appetite has waned a little. He's now eating about 140g per day.
> 
> The poo situation also seems to be improving so I'm going to try dropping the lactulose to just 1ml per day. Fingers crossed. . . . .
> 
> ETA he was last sick on Saturday morning.


So glad you are feeling better about things. That is so important. xxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> So glad you are feeling better about things. That is so important. xxx


Thank you, I've realised that we've made immense progress despite all the setbacks. He really doesn't seem like the same cat who started this transition, and , to be honest I don't think that I feel like the same slave. My only regret is that I didn't start this sooner. There again, we know what they say about hindsight.

Dylan has been sick this morning but it was the first since early Saturday. I wasn't surprised, the food was barely thawed, I put it down expecting him to take one bite then leave it to finish thawing, but he scoffed the lot in double quick time.


----------



## Forester

Giving 2 drops of cod liver oil at the same time was too much for Dylan's system to cope with. In addition to being sick on Wednesday morning there were 2 close calls during the evening. Each time he licked his lips and looked nauseous but didn't actually vomit.

From Thursday morning I decided to give the same daily quantity but to space the doses out more . I gave 4 doses of one drop yesterday and am doing the same today. He looks much more comfortable. I think that I'm learning to recognise when I can continue to progress the transition and when I have to stay still or even back up a little.

Now that I have the most important elements of Dylan's diet in place I'm much less anxious about the speed of the transition. We'll get there when he's able to cope with the ingredients.


----------



## Forester

I forgot to mention yesterday that I've dropped Dylan's lactulose to 1 dose of 1ml per day without incident. His GI system appears to have adjusted to having a much less bulky diet. I'll keep going on 1ml for a while before attempting to drop it completely.

I'm learning that , for Dylan, any changes have to be done in miniscule increments. I'm sure that many of my dietary changes in the past have failed because, although I thought that I was going incredibly slowly, the changes were made too quickly.

I've dropped the cod liver oil to 3 drops for today but plan to try 4 again from Monday. He hasn't been sick again , just looks slightly uncomfortable at times. I may even try alternating between 3 and 4 drops for a while.


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## Pepperpots

Thanks for updating, you’re doing brilliantly.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Thanks for updating, you're doing brilliantly.


Thanks, I know that we're " getting there" very slowly. I'm hopeful that if anyone else is ever in a similar position, and needs encouragement, reading this may show them that , no matter how many setbacks there may be, transitioning a cat with really complicated IBD to raw is achievable.


----------



## Forester

I'm almost afraid to give this update for fear of jinxing things.

Dylan's usual monthly vomit total tends to be about 11 or 12. During October so far we've had. . . . .1. He also seems to be pooing without problems so I'm going to try dropping the lactulose completely.

Appetite is down a little, but he's still eating around 120g per day so I'm not too worried. I've started to add just the tiniest amount of rabbit to some meals in the hope that adding another protein might boost his appetite a little.

He seems to be doing alright with 4 drops of cod liver oil a day, given one at a time. I don't really want to be " pilling" more than 4 times a day so I'm going to keep the clo at this level for a few more days. 

The freeze dried pork liver hasn't arrived yet.


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## Pepperpots

That’s great news. 120g sounds about the right amount anyway.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> That's great news. 120g sounds about the right amount anyway.


Thank you. This is the same cat who was losing weight on 425g James Wellbeloved lamb per day only 6 months ago.


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## Forester

Two days on from our last report and Dylan's vomit total for October remains at 1. I almost can't believe it.

The tub of freeze dried pigs liver as well as a bottle of vit. B complex arrived this morning. I want to give Dylan another couple of days before starting to introduce the PL, as I'm interested in seeing whether this improvement continues. I'm planning to maintain the clo dose at 4 drops daily ( approx. half the dose recommended by the Raw for IBD Fb group ) whilst I introduce the FDPL. Assuming that the PL is tolerated, and eaten, I will start to reduce the clo once Dylan gets to half the quantity of PL that he requires.

I'm due to update my vet regarding Dylan next week. So long as there is no massive deterioration in the rate of vomiting in the meantime, I'm intending to float the idea of trying to reduce Dylan's pred. I have wanted to do this for so long. Please , please, please don't let anything go wrong now.

I almost forgot to mention, I'm now giving I tiny piece of raw rabbit with each meal. I don't intend to increase the rabbit whilst introducing the pigs liver, it would confuse the situation too much, but I will continue to give the rabbit at the current rate.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Two days on from our last report and Dylan's vomit total for October remains at 1. I almost can't believe it.
> 
> The tub of freeze dried pigs liver as well as a bottle of vit. B complex arrived this morning. I want to give Dylan another couple of days before starting to introduce the PL, as I'm interested in seeing whether this improvement continues. I'm planning to maintain the clo dose at 4 drops daily ( approx. half the dose recommended by the Raw for IBD Fb group ) whilst I introduce the FDPL. Assuming that the PL is tolerated, and eaten, I will start to reduce the clo once Dylan gets to half the quantity of PL that he requires.
> 
> I'm due to update my vet regarding Dylan next week. So long as there is no massive deterioration in the rate of vomiting in the meantime, I'm intending to float the idea of trying to reduce Dylan's pred. I have wanted to do this for so long. Please , please, please don't let anything go wrong now.
> 
> I almost forgot to mention, I'm now giving I tiny piece of raw rabbit with each meal. I don't intend to increase the rabbit whilst introducing the pigs liver, it would confuse the situation too much, but I will continue to give the rabbit at the current rate.


Speechless with joy! Well done! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Speechless with joy! Well done! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Thank you.:Kiss I owe it all to everyone one who has encouraged and coaxed me with this transition ( *you know who you are! *) It feels almost like a dream. I have no doubt that there will be more setbacks along the line but I also know that there is absolutely no way anyone could ever persuade me that a raw diet is not the best possible option for Dylan.

As for today, he's still vomit free, he's pooed in the tray without assistance from lactulose, and he's more mischievous than ever.

Oh, and he's weighed in at 5.7kg . It's a bit higher than ideal , but you can't have it all. I'm more than happy with where we are !


----------



## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> Thank you.:Kiss I owe it all to everyone one who has encouraged and coaxed me with this transition ( *you know who you are! *) It feels almost like a dream. I have no doubt that there will be more setbacks along the line but I also know that there is absolutely no way anyone could ever persuade me that a raw diet is not the best possible option for Dylan.
> 
> As for today, he's still vomit free, he's pooed in the tray without assistance from lactulose, and he's more mischievous than ever.
> 
> Oh, and he's weighed in at 5.7kg . It's a bit higher than ideal , but you can't have it all. I'm more than happy with where we are !


You show 'em Dylan m'laddo!!!!!!


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> You show 'em Dylan m'laddo!!!!!!


He's certainly doing that , the little tinker. He's never looked " poor" but now he just oozes " joie de vivre ".


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## Forester

The inevitable happened this morning when Dylan deposited his lunch on the lounge carpet. It came about half an hour after I gave him a tiny " treat" of a miniscule piece of freeze dried pigs liver. Whether there is any connection between the liver and the vomit I have no idea. My plan for today had been to introduce just 0.1g FDPL. Even if fed at 5% of his diet he needs 2.4g per day so I was starting with just a tiny proportion of the target total. The piece Dylan ate was probably only about 0.02g.

I'm disappointed that the good run has come to an end but not discouraged at all. I haven't gone back through my records but I'm pretty sure that this is the longest vomit free period Dylan has managed for at least 2 , if not 3, years.

I will be continuing with the FDPL until I get more idea whether it has caused today's vomit. If it has, then it's not a problem, I'll back off with the liver for a while, continuing with the clo, and then try again. Dylan's diet should be satisfying his essential needs so I'm not going to panic.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> He's certainly doing that , the little tinker. He's never looked " poor" but now he just oozes " joie de vivre ".


I know exactly what you mean! xx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I know exactly what you mean! xx


Your experiences have probably been my main encouragement in this process. The knowledge that raw has benefitted your girls so much is what has kept me going. I can't thank you enough.:Cat

Dylan has vomited again this morning, which is disappointing although maybe not surprising. I think that I'm going to stop both the rabbit and the FDPL for a few days to see what happens, then reintroduce just one of them. I'm making Dylan's cod liver oil drops a little larger now so he is probably getting about 700IU Vit A per day. I'll check with the Raw for IBD Fb group later whether this is enough for now on.


----------



## Forester

I'm on a bit of a downer at the moment though I know that I shouldn't really be . We've come so far but still seem to be stuck trying to find a liver source which Dylan will eat and can tolerate. I've asked for advice on the Raw for IBD Fb group but haven't received any replies which seem appropriate. It would appear that there aren't many cats as sensitive as Dylan, though I already knew that.

I've stopped the FDPL and the rabbit and the vomiting has stopped again. ( He was sick Tuesday as well as Monday, both times with the meal following the tiny piece of FDPL ). I know that I said that I wasn't worried if I had to drop the liver for a while but I am concerned as to whether Dylan is getting enough Vit A from the clo that he's having - about 650 - 700 IU per day. My vet is lovely but not a nutritionist.

Never mind, a low was bound to follow the recent high. This is the cat for whom my vets had exhausted all ideas.


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## Pepperpots

Would a human vitamin A supplement be any use?


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Would a human vitamin A supplement be any use?


Thanks for the suggestion. I think that most of the human supplements contain far too much vit A. I've just looked at a Holland and Barrett one and it contained 8000IU . The safe amount for a cat is supposed to be about 1250IU. I _think _that he should be having enough, but it's that element of doubt which concerns me, particularly when he went 9 weeks with none or almost none. The clo capsules that I have are 1250IU in total with each drop working out at about 125IU. I'm managing to get about 6 drops a day into him at the moment , split into 4 doses. I don't want to dose any more often as the capsules are quite large and need a good "chaser" which is not popular with Dylan.

I think that my best bet is to try to gradually work him up to being able to take 2 drops at a time but its a slow process. If only I could give the whole capsule at once , or even a 1/4 capsule life would be so much easier.

I apologise, I think that I'm probably voicing my frustration more than expecting a solution. I'm waiting for my vet to call me back so that I can update him on Dylan's progress and I'm going to have to admit that he's *still *not on a complete diet .Maybe I'll just stress the amount of progress that we've made.


----------



## Guest

@Forester , I am amazed at your dedication 
It sounds all too complicated! It looks like your care and dedication is really paying off. Hats off to you and Dylan 
I hope you find that liver source ;] and that there is constant progress xx


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## Forester

whompingwillow said:


> @Forester , I am amazed at your dedication
> It sounds all too complicated! It looks like your care and dedication is really paying off. Hats off to you and Dylan
> I hope you find that liver source ;] and that there is constant progress xx


Thank you . I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't do everything within my power to help him. I accept that there are things I can't do for various reasons ( I was unable to have him referred to a Specialist until my vet took him for me ) but if I can do it, I will.

I know that I'll get there in the end , but it is sooo frustrating when we seem up against an intractable problem.

Hopefully someone else might benefit from my experiences, both positive and negative, at some time in the future; and this thread will have been worthwhile for someone other than me. At the moment it is my " release valve".


----------



## SbanR

@Forester , I second everything WW said. Please don't get down hearted, n venting your frustration is good! Let it out!

I don't raw feed ( Jessie likes her wet) but I have had a cat with IBD n I honestly don't think I would have had the attention to detail and dedication n perseverance you've shown.
You're an amazing person n Dylan is very lucky to have ended up with you


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## Forester

SbanR said:


> @Forester , I second everything WW said. Please don't get down hearted, n venting your frustration is good! Let it out!
> 
> I don't raw feed ( Jessie likes her wet) but I have had a cat with IBD n I honestly don't think I would have had the attention to detail and dedication n perseverance you've shown.
> You're an amazing person n Dylan is very lucky to have ended up with you


Thank you @SbanR. Your kind words have reduced me to tears - again.:Kiss The support I've received from PF members has been truly amazing . I'm sure that every one of you would do what I'm trying to do for Dylan , in the same circumstances. What I've found hardest is that no one else seems to have a cat as sensitive as Dylan ( Thank Heavens! ) so I don't know where to go for advice. Even most of the members on the Raw for IBD Fb group don't seem to have had the problems that Dylan and I are encountering.


----------



## Erenya

Hi there, I just read this entire thread - you're amazing! Dylan is so lucky to have an owner like you.

I did want to throw a curceball option into the mix re Vitamin A. Butter has 2,499 IU per 100g. From the thread it seems as though Dylan can tolerate butte and whilst you clearly wouldn't want to give 50g of butter every day, but could you add 10g to his daily diet, thereby increasing his Vit A dose by around 250UI.

Have you also tried a very small amount of finely grated carrot? 100g of carrots has 16000UI - so 5g or so - hardly anything, would be 800UI - that is if he can tolerate it.


----------



## Forester

Erenya said:


> Hi there, I just read this entire thread - you're amazing! Dylan is so lucky to have an owner like you.
> 
> I did want to throw a curceball option into the mix re Vitamin A. Butter has 2,499 IU per 100g. From the thread it seems as though Dylan can tolerate butte and whilst you clearly wouldn't want to give 50g of butter every day, but could you add 10g to his daily diet, thereby increasing his Vit A dose by around 250UI.
> 
> Have you also tried a very small amount of finely grated carrot? 100g of carrots has 16000UI - so 5g or so - hardly anything, would be 800UI - that is if he can tolerate it.


Thank you @Erenya, for your compliment ( feeling both flattered and embarrassed ), and your suggestions.

To the best of my limited knowledge cats can't synthesize Vit A from vegetables so I don't think that the carrots would work but butter might be a help. I just wish that I knew whether Dylan's current 700IU is sufficient or not. I wonder whether @Ceiling Kitty could tell me.


----------



## Forester

Panic over!!!!!!. I've checked the AAFCO ( Association of American Food Control Officials ) Standards and it indicates that I'm feeding enough Vit A at the moment.

Here is a link to the standards for anyone who might find them useful

http://www.peteducation.com/article_print.cfm?c=1 2244&aid=657

They show that an adult cat needs 3,332IU Vit A per Kg food. Dylan eats approximately 140g food so needs 466.48 IU per day

I don't know why I make myself panic about the diet like this. If I had only sat and thought about it I could easily have worked that out in the beginning.

Never mind, onwards and upwards.


----------



## Forester

Hang on, the chart shows levels on a dry matter basis and Dylan's food has to be only about 25% dry matter. That would mean that he's having 0.035kg dry matter per day giving a level of 116.62IU. That's not right.


----------



## Erenya

This website - http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+1448&aid=709 - states that the minimum required dose is *2272 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis*

so if Dylan is on 140g, that converts to 0.31lb (rounded up)

Most blended raw I've seen has been about 60-65% moisture, so i'd imagine yours is the same, so taking a middle amount of 62.5% that would be 37.5% DMB

So: 37.5% of 0.31lb = 0.116lb of DMB food per day

Working that back to the original minimum amount of 2272 IU/lb = daily allocation of *263.55iu
*


----------



## Erenya

However, this site: http://www.knowyourcat.info/info/vitamins.htm - states that cats need 100iu for each 100g of body weight.

Given that he's getting 600-700, maybe you could reduce it a bit, but by both these measures you're miles and miles away from having too much, so if it's working, i wouldn't' worry


----------



## Forester

@Erenya I love you.

ETA That's the site which says 100IU per *Kg *bodyweight, and is where I referred to for my original rough calculation of Dylan needing about 600IU. He's 5.7kg.

My concern wasn't that he might be getting too much but that he might not be getting enough, particularly as he went 9 weeks with hardly any Vit A at all.


----------



## Forester

Assuming that Dylan *is *getting the most essential nutrients from his current diet I've decided to have a period of consolidation until the end of this month. It will, I hope, allow me to get a better picture of how far we've come. If I'm honest I'm desperate to see how much his monthly vomit total will be reduced over that from previous months.

A pause in the transition will also allow family , and feline , stress levels to settle. Sadly, anxiety levels have risen a little since the vomiting at the start of this week. I think that we will all benefit from just stepping back a little for a few days.


----------



## Forester

Dylan clearly hasn't read this diary to know that I was hoping to let everything settle for a few days. He's been sick twice since yesterday. It was always going to happen after his excellent run. As for not changing his diet at all- I've had to give him a couple of pieces of rabbit in order to tempt him to eat. Never mind, he appears to be much better than he's been for a long time . . . and tomorrow is another day.


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## Paddypaws

Oh you would be disappointed if he made it too easy for you!
Its good that he is enjoying a second protein source though, that must be seen as progress.


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Oh you would be disappointed if he made it too easy for you!
> Its good that he is enjoying a second protein source though, that must be seen as progress.


I don't think Dylan knows how to make things easy.

You're right though, what on earth would I do with my time if I wasn't doing research and ordering products online ? Just think of all those delivery men who would be redundant without my constant deliveries of probiotics, premixes, vitamins, collagen, empty capsules, pigs blood etc. To say nothing of what would happen to my Vet practice. Dylan must fund a vet, a nurse and a receptionist all by himself.:Hilarious

Yes , I think that the rabbit, all be it just a few tiny pieces, has to be more progress. When I think back to how Dylan was before I started the transition to raw I realise how far we've come.


----------



## Forester

I've had a long chat with my vet who seems pleased with our progress. He doesn't seem at all concerned about the adequacy of Dylan's diet.

I do wish that I hadn't emphasised my concern over Dylan's recent rapid weight gain though. It was suggested that we try to reduce Dylan's pred. a little. Don't get me wrong , I've dreamed of reducing the pred. for so long but now I'm worried that this is too soon. It has been pointed out that I can increase the dose again if Dylan's inflammation appears to increase but I'm apprehensive that I'm not going to be able to determine whether Dylan is progressing or not. I suppose that It won't make that much difference. I'm not going to stop feeding raw unless something drastic happens . It clearly suits him much better than any of the wet ( and dry  ) diets that we've tried in the past.

The plan is to give 2mg pred. one day, then 1mg on alternate days. Right now I feel like a parachutist about to make a first jump.:Nailbiting


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I've had a long chat with my vet who seems pleased with our progress. He doesn't seem at all concerned about the adequacy of Dylan's diet.
> 
> I do wish that I hadn't emphasised my concern over Dylan's recent rapid weight gain though. It was suggested that we try to reduce Dylan's pred. a little. Don't get me wrong , I've dreamed of reducing the pred. for so long but now I'm worried that this is too soon. It has been pointed out that I can increase the dose again if Dylan's inflammation appears to increase but I'm apprehensive that I'm not going to be able to determine whether Dylan is progressing or not. I suppose that It won't make that much difference. I'm not going to stop feeding raw unless something drastic happens . It clearly suits him much better than any of the wet ( and dry  ) diets that we've tried in the past.
> 
> The plan is to give 2mg pred. one day, then 1mg on alternate days. Right now I feel like a parachutist about to make a first jump.:Nailbiting


Why not wait until the start of next month to begin the reduction, sticking to your plan?


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Why not wait until the start of next month to begin the reduction, sticking to your plan?


I intend to . I'm going to start the new regime when my current pred. supply runs out on Sunday. I plan to give 1mg only on a Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, with 2mg on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday.

Dylan has been pretty bad over the last 8 days but I think that I *may *have noticed a pattern. He's been sick 5 times but those times have all been on days when he's had a few pieces of rabbit. I haven't recorded the times that I've given the rabbit so I can't be sure that he was sick after having the rabbit ; however it looks as though there could be a connection. On the three days that he hasn't been sick he didn't have any rabbit. He did have rabbit for 5 days before the vomiting started but maybe it took him a while to react. For the time being rabbit is off the menu. It is a shame as I would like to get him onto another protein.

I have some sliced turkey breast in the freezer but I'm reluctant to try that just now. Turkey is the first protein which I discovered that he had a problem with when cooked. I've been told that a problem with a cooked protein doesn't necessarily translate to a problem with the raw protein however, this is Dylan , and I wouldn't want to rate our chances.

I think that I'll stick with just pork for now.

P S I know that I hadn't intended to give any rabbit over the last few days however I did it to encourage Dylan to eat. He was turning his nose up at the pork but relishing the rabbit. Now that he's carrying extra weight I'm worrying about hepatic lipidosis if he reduces his food intake. I know, I'm a worrier, but he's relying on me to get this right.


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## Paddypaws

Yeah he is relying on you to get this right....and you've done a pretty fine job so far!


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Yeah he is relying on you to get this right....and you've done a pretty fine job so far!


Thank you :Shamefullyembarrased. I hope so.

The improvements I'm seeing now are treasured all the more for all the tears, and despair we've experienced in the past. This little boy is truly Special . Throughout the ordeal of his digestive problems he has never once shown any aggression or bad temper. He really does not deserve the poor hand that life has dealt him so far.


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## Forester

It is now almost 48 hours since I stopped giving Dylan the little pieces of rabbit which he so loves. In that time he hasn't been sick. The next few days will give me more idea whether I've identified another protein that he doesn't tolerate but right now I'd put money on it!


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## Forester

There isn't much happening on the transition front at the moment. I'm leaving everything as it is till the end of the month in the hope that I can get a rough idea how far we've come ( or not come ).

Dylan was sick this morning but I'm considering not including this one in the monthly total. ( Is this cheating????? )The pile deposited on the carpet included pieces of a foreign substance, later identified as salted peanuts . OH had failed to secure them out of Dylan's reach. I'm pretty confident that the peanuts were the cause of the vomit.

OH has been suitably reprimanded and won't be leaving peanuts lying about again! The incident has , however, got me thinking about the restricted nature of the current diet once more. Do I ever think of anything else ?. I'm wondering whether Dylan might have sought out the peanuts due to a dietary deficiency. Apart from the peanut incident he has also developed a habit of licking OH's hair. Should I maybe start adding a mineral source- sea salt or similar? I will look into this .


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> There isn't much happening on the transition front at the moment. I'm leaving everything as it is till the end of the month in the hope that I can get a rough idea how far we've come ( or not come ).
> 
> Dylan was sick this morning but I'm considering not including this one in the monthly total. ( Is this cheating????? )The pile deposited on the carpet included pieces of a foreign substance, later identified as salted peanuts . OH had failed to secure them out of Dylan's reach. I'm pretty confident that the peanuts were the cause of the vomit.
> 
> OH has been suitably reprimanded and won't be leaving peanuts lying about again! The incident has , however, got me thinking about the restricted nature of the current diet once more. Do I ever think of anything else ?. I'm wondering whether Dylan might have sought out the peanuts due to a dietary deficiency. Apart from the peanut incident he has also developed a habit of licking OH's hair. Should I maybe start adding a mineral source- sea salt or similar? I will look into this .


Was just looking around for an update, missed this some how. Peanuts! Oh Dylan! How's he doing now? Cats do like the taste of salt though. And fat. Peanuts are high in fat as well. xx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Was just looking around for an update, missed this some how. Peanuts! Oh Dylan! How's he doing now? Cats do like the taste of salt though. And fat. Peanuts are high in fat as well. xx


I apologise for not updating since Saturday. There hadn't been anything which felt worth reporting.

Now that October is over I've been studying Dylan's recent vomiting record. I have records going back to January 14 detailing every vomit produced along with what medication , if any, he was taking, and what he was eating at the time. I find it very useful to see how he has changed over time. I also have records of weight changes and any factors I feel may be significant.

Dylan's total for October was 8 . I counted the peanut episode , after all there's no point looking at the figures if I'm going to fiddle them ! 8 is more for the month than I was hoping for, but it is better than 13 ( Sept and July ) or 14 ( August ).We are clearly moving in the right direction. I'm pretty sure that , had I not tried to introduce another protein ( rabbit ) October's total would have been lower. Since Dylan's diet has been completely raw there appears to be a definite connection between periods of increased vomiting and attempts to introduce new ingredients.

I was pretty sure that 8 was going to be Dylan's lowest monthly total for years however I was surprised to see that he also recorded just 8 vomits in February this year. That was when my vet got me to try him with metoclopramide. Metoclopramide speeds up gastric emptying but also acts to prevent nausea signals reaching the brain. I wasn't particularly keen to try this on Dylan, especially as he'd had a neurological reaction to metronidazole, but we gave it a go. There appeared to be nothing else left to try. I also wasn't keen to use something which wouldn't reduce the inflammation, only mask it. The metoclopramide helped slightly for a couple of weeks but then seemed to lose its effect so we discontinued it. With the exception of Feb 17 the last time Dylan's monthly vomit total was below 10 was June 2015.

Dylan has been sick this morning but it is the first time since Saturday.

I started the pred. reduction on Monday, giving 1mg and 2mg on alternate days. I've mentioned this to my mentor from the Raw for IBD Fb group and we've agreed that it would be sensible to leave Dylan's diet exactly where it is at the moment .I need to establish whether reducing the pred has any impact on his vomiting rate before I make any other changes.

All in all I'm feeling pretty happy with where we are.


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## lorilu

Thanks for the detailed update! I keep records like that too. I'm glad Dylan's progress seems steady. xx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Thanks for the detailed update! I keep records like that too. I'm glad Dylan's progress seems steady. xx


My pleasure, and thanks. My records are so detailed that sometimes it is difficult to see the bigger picture. When Dylan went to Langford I sent colour coded charts detailing every vomit alongside what food he was eating and what meds he was taking. The Specialist claimed to have never been given so much detail before.

I've presented the picture since I stopped feeding the JWB lamb but the bigger picture seems more complicated. 2017 has been a year with less vomiting than 2016 but then he's been on 2mg pred daily throughout 2017 up until now. His worst ever period was Jan16 to April 16 ( Totals of 14, 17, 17 and 20 ) when he was on Hills z/d dry and ranitidine. I'd managed to resist feeding any dry food until then but finally gave in. Giving in upset me so much I cried when I ordered the food. I felt that I 'd betrayed him. At least I will never try that again!!!!!!!

He's actually having a bad spell now - he's vomited on each of the last three days , but my instinct is that this is too soon to be a result of reducing the pred. There again last time I tried reducing , that time from 2mg to 1mg ,we only lasted 5 days . He was sick every day so I went back to giving 2mg. I'll give this a few more days . If he stays on daily vomiting then I will have to go back to 2mg each day. I can't see that our tiny reduction should make that much difference.

I'm also having a bit of a dilemma over Dylan's probiotics. The little *** is eating very little of his Bioglan unless I decant it into capsules with his cod liver oil. The problem with that method of administration is that I would really need to give him 8 capsules a day to fit everything in. I draw the line at giving more than 4 capsules. I'll have another look at the probiotics recommended by the Raw for IBD group. I do know that I ideally need to include an acidophilus, a bifidobacterium, L rhamnosus and Saccharomyces Boulardii. Shame really, why do cats always decide to refuse something when you've stocked up on it?


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## Forester

Urghh, Dylan has been sick again this morning. That's 4 consecutive days. I would never have imagined that such a small reduction in his pred. would have such a dramatic effect but it is looking that way. I'm not sure whether I , or Dylan, can stick this out any longer. I'm definitely considering going back to the 2mg dose today and just leaving a message for my vet tomorrow. I know, I know, I have no staying power but it is so upsetting to see my sweet boy vomit on a daily basis.

Dylan is still 5.7 kg ( 5.73) so perhaps he's reached his optimal weight


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## Forester

I've put Dylan back onto 2mg pred. per day. He wasn't sick this morning but did have a short session where he clearly felt nauseous. Luckily next door's dogs distracted him by going loopy in the garden at exactly the right moment. 

This failed attempt at steroid reduction has shown me that Dylan hasn't progressed as much as I thought . We can, however, get back to trying to progress the transition once his system settles back down.We may have had a setback but my resolve is still strong.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I've put Dylan back onto 2mg pred. per day. He wasn't sick this morning but did have a short session where he clearly felt nauseous. Luckily next door's dogs distracted him by going loopy in the garden at exactly the right moment.
> 
> This failed attempt at steroid reduction has shown me that Dylan hasn't progressed as much as I thought . We can, however, get back to trying to progress the transition once his system settles back down.We may have had a setback but my resolve is still strong.


I know how disappointed you must feel. But I think you've made the right choice. Baby steps. xxxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I know how disappointed you must feel. But I think you've made the right choice. Baby steps. xxxxx


Thank you. I know that I've done the right thing. Dylan hasn't been sick since we went back to 2mg each day. I am horrified at how much difference a small change appears to make though.

I believe that the reason my vet suggested the pred. reduction was because I've been worried about Dylan's recent rapid weight gain. He's gone from 4.6 kg to 5.7kg in just a few months. He *did *need to put on weight but I'm concerned about the continued increase - where will it end?  I'm pretty sure that the weight gain is fuelled by Dylan's cetirizine . My vet , however , seems convinced that it is the cetirizine which has brought about Dylan's improvement and does not want me to discontinue it. I , as you probably realise, attribute the improvement to the raw diet!

Dylan has been on pred. , ( and even cyclosporine for a while ) for such a large proportion of his life that I constantly worry about the toll it is taking on his poor body. Having had 2 scares over his kidneys doesn't help. His last SDMA test at the end of June produced a value of 14, the upper limit of normal. I've always maintained that quality of life is more important than quantity but sometimes it is hard to know what I should do. Anyway, Dylan appears to have shown me that he definitely needs the pred. at the moment.

As for the raw diet - we go onwards, and hopefully upwards. Dylan looks so much better than he did a few months ago. I don't ever want to go back to feeding him anything other than raw.


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## Pavonine

What is cetirizine? Is that something you are able to slightly reduce to see what effect it would have or is it a case if he either has it or he doesn’t?

I’ve been reading this thread for a while since catching up from the beginning, despite me being fortunate enough for it not to be from necessity. There are definitely massive improvements in him from an outsider’s perspective - I know it’s much harder to see clearly when you are dealing with it all day every day so I just wanted to say that you are doing a wonderful job and Dylan is very lucky to have you. You’re right, it is about quality of life and you have improved his dramatically.


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## Forester

Pavonine said:


> What is cetirizine? Is that so be very much bettermething you are able to slightly reduce to see what effect it would have or is it a case if he either has it or he doesn't?
> 
> I've been reading this thread for a while since catching up from the beginning, despite me being fortunate enough for it not to be from necessity. There are definitely massive improvements in him from an outsider's perspective - I know it's much harder to see clearly when you are dealing with it all day every day so I just wanted to say that you are doing a wonderful job and Dylan is very lucky to have you. You're right, it is about quality of life and you have improved his dramatically.


Thank you for your very kind words @Pavonine . Since starting this transition to a raw diet Dylan appears , to me , to have improved immensely although my figures only show improvement during October. I will never , ever give up trying to find ways to help him.

Cetirizine is cetirizine dihydrochloride, aka Piriteze, Zyrtec. We're giving it to Dylan because I found evidence that it can help with eosinophilic inflammation which Dylan has.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3239147/

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/dailyvet/2010/february/zyrtec_for_cats-5403

My vet looked at some of the articles I showed him about Zyrtec and decided that it was worth a try.Dylan's appetite and weight started to increase as soon as the cetirizine was initiated. I _have_ already reduced Dylan's dose from 5mg per day to 3.3mg . On 5mg per day he was , at one point, eating 5 pouches JWB lamb ( 425g ) *plus *20g raw lamb yet still sat where he is fed asking for food several times a day. My vet agreed with the dose reduction as he was concerned that, with Dylan eating so much, there was nowhere for his food to go but back out of the front!.

Dylan's response to the pred reduction has shown me that it just isn't feasible. At the moment he needs that pred to maintain his quality of life.

If I end up with a very fat cat so be it. You can't have everything. I suppose that the likelihood of Dylan developing diabetes will be lowered with him having a low carbohydrate diet. Hopefully we will be able to reduce the pred further down the line . If not, well that's life. There have been times in the past when I feared that Dylan would not be here now. As it is he looks the complete picture of health. I have never ever seen a cat with such a soft glossy coat. It's ironic; very single vet to have examined Dylan in the last 4 years has said that they've been amazed to see how well he looks considering the picture painted by his notes.

Today has been another vomit free day.


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## Forester

Dylan hasn't been sick in the 5 and 1/2 days since I reverted to the 2mg pred. per day. I'm flabbergasted that such a small change seems to make so much difference to him.

He's also managing to take 2 drops of cod liver oil at once without ill effects.

I _was _thinking about trying to introduce another protein , either lamb or turkey, from next week but I'm tempted to just leave things as they are for a little longer. The rabbit episode was so disheartening.

I also have the dilemma over which protein to choose. I've given raw lamb previously, and although he was reacting he was also having other ingredients which have since been ruled out . I've also been advised that lamb is a meat which isn't easily tolerated. Turkey is apparently widely tolerated however , in its cooked form, turkey is the protein he is worst with. I'm aware that cooking denatures a protein considerably but I'm reluctant to risk it. Why does he make these decisions so hard for me?


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## Pepperpots

How about game? You can get pheasant breasts at the moment, or perhaps venison. P didn’t do well with lamb, but was fine with these.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Why does he make these decisions so hard for me?


The question of the year, eh? I understand your desire to find another protein, as well as your worry over it causing a set back. What about duck instead of turkey? Duck is a fattier food though so you would have to reduce portions. I know you've said he's put on weight, which is concerning as well. A little padding is okay, but with obesity comes a whole other host of health issues.

The balancing act for Dylan is so delicate. Do you ever wonder what you used to think about? I've said that with levity in my intent but am serious too. You know I think about my girl's diet non stop day in and day out. Even at work if I have an idle moment my brain goes straight to her diet. xxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> The question of the year, eh? I understand your desire to find another protein, as well as your worry over it causing a set back. What about duck instead of turkey? Duck is a fattier food though so you would have to reduce portions. I know you've said he's put on weight, which is concerning as well. A little padding is okay, but with obesity comes a whole other host of health issues.
> 
> The balancing act for Dylan is so delicate. *Do you ever wonder what you used to think about? *I've said that with levity in my intent but am serious too. You know I think about my girl's diet non stop day in and day out. Even at work if I have an idle moment my brain goes straight to her diet. xxxx


Ha ha . I recognise your statement in bold so well, and know that you understand my position completely, having had similar experiences yourself. I gave up work over three years ago to look after OH but I often think how it is Dylan who needs a 24 hour carer. . I couldn't forgive myself if I didn't keep trying to help him with every available moment of every single day. I admit that he's taken over my life but I'm not complaining.

Duck sounds a good idea, thank you. I will look into that more. In the backwater of the Forest of Dean I've only seen whole frozen ducks which could be quite challenging to prepare but I'll speak with my friendly butcher.

I'm just pushing the weight issue to the back of my mind for now. There's a lot for it to hide behind, LOL.I have been trying to get Dylan to exercise more but once he's had enough he flops down and stares at me as if I've lost my sanity. There are times when I wonder, too.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> How about game? You can get pheasant breasts at the moment, or perhaps venison. P didn't do well with lamb, but was fine with these.


Thank you for your suggestions. Either could be worth trying. I'll have a good look around and see what I can find.

Glad to hear that P gets on well with a variety of proteins. I believe that there is far less likelihood of new sensitivities developing when you are able to rotate.


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## Pepperpots

Unfortunately, the only wet cat food food he can have now is one brand of turkey. Raw just made him put on so much weight, I was feeding less than 60-80g a day and still being told off by the vets as he was rapidly expanding (he was shut in at this point so I could monitor him properly.) he’s at a good weight now, but he puts it on so easily, especially considering he’s v active.

He’s on house arrest at the moment. Judging by a pile of chicken, peas and veg vomit, someone is feeding him and his bum is like an exploding geyser. 

I’m pretty sure Cash’s second round of treatment hasn’t worked, so I am going to have to go through all the testing with Philip to make sure he’s clear of it, as well as treating Cash more aggressively - which is a big risk.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> Unfortunately, the only wet cat food food he can have now is one brand of turkey. Raw just made him put on so much weight, I was feeding less than 60-80g a day and still being told off by the vets as he was rapidly expanding (he was shut in at this point so I could monitor him properly.) he's at a good weight now, but he puts it on so easily, especially considering he's v active.
> 
> He's on house arrest at the moment. Judging by a pile of chicken, peas and veg vomit, someone is feeding him and his bum is like an exploding geyser.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Cash's second round of treatment hasn't worked, so I am going to have to go through all the testing with Philip to make sure he's clear of it, as well as treating Cash more aggressively - which is a big risk.


Oh no, no , and , nooooo!. I don't have any advice to offer but you do have my sympathy. I find it hard to cope with one " special" cat so you have my admiration for coping with 2.

Dylan is currently eating 120g per day which I didn't think was much, especially compared to the 425g wet he was eating when he was losing weight. I wonder how much other indoor, raw fed, IBDers eat . If Dylan gets to midnight tonight he will have recorded _another _vomit free week. If only I hadn't tried reducing the pred. . . . . . .

I've decided not to try introducing another protein whilst we're on a good run. I'd like to see how long Dylan can " last" on his current regime.


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## Pepperpots

120 is a decent amount for raw. I wonder if our boys are so used to not processing the goodness out of food, their body clings onto every calorie? Bit like people who can damage their metabolism through yo yo dieting. 
The Cash situation is getting me down a bit. The vet bills alone are horrendous and I hate seeing him not 100%. Test results by the end of next week, so we’ll see. P’s poos are improving now he’s not going outside, but he’s getting frustrated.

Good luck with Dylan. Xx


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> 120 is a decent amount for raw. I wonder if our boys are so used to not processing the goodness out of food, their body clings onto every calorie? Bit like people who can damage their metabolism through yo yo dieting.
> The Cash situation is getting me down a bit. The vet bills alone are horrendous and I hate seeing him not 100%. Test results by the end of next week, so we'll see. P's poos are improving now he's not going outside, but he's getting frustrated.
> 
> Good luck with Dylan. Xx


Just an idea regarding P. Could you cat proof your garden or create a run for him?. That way he could get some fresh air and you'd also have some control over what he eats. I know that if Dylan were able to roam free he'd be finding food somewhere .

Fingers crossed for Cash's test results.

xx


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## Pepperpots

I did investigate that, but given the layout of it and my how my neighbours gardens attach, it’s just not possible.


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## Forester

We're on day 8 without vomiting . 

I've also bought a pack of duck breasts which are now stashed in the freezer so they'll be ready when I need them.


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## Forester

The run ended on day 9. A few months ago 8 days between vomits was something I only dreamed about . November's total so far is 5 .


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> The run ended on day 9. A few months ago 8 days between vomits was something I only dreamed about . November's total so far is 5 .


It's kind of..odd...to me... to follow Dylan's progress because much of what you are going though is identical to what I and my girl experienced as well. I remember the thrill as each day made the run longer, and the crushing disappointment when it ended. It took me years to learn to cope and accept that inevitably it would end, and then start over. Of course I hope for you and Dylan that the spans get longer and longer or stop all together...


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> It's kind of..odd...to me... to follow Dylan's progress because much of what you are going though is identical to what I and my girl experienced as well. I remember the thrill as each day made the run longer, and the crushing disappointment when it ended. It took me years to learn to cope and accept that inevitably it would end, and then start over. Of course I hope for you and Dylan that the spans get longer and longer or stop all together...


I find the hardest part is trying to be sure that we *are *making progress and that it's not just me looking at Dylan's situation with rose tinted glasses. He *has *always had this habit of throwing in a spell , maybe even close to a week, of vomit free days before returning to the relentless puking. Up until October his monthly vomit totals weren't significantly lower however, since he's been on raw everything _feels _better. Is this just because I've always believed that raw would help him? I don't know. I've been reassuring myself that the monthly vomit totals were not coming down because I was repeatedly testing him with new ingredients . New ingredients for Dylan, in fact any change at all, generally means increased vomiting for a while.

That said , I have absolutely no intention of abandoning the raw now. He looks fabulous on it, and it is what his body evolved to eat, after all.

I do feel slightly in limbo - twixt finding another protein and getting his diet complete. Taking past experiences into account I know that liver and other organs are going to be troublesome but I feel that B vits at least ought to be easy to add without causing issues. They should be easy , shouldn't they? The B complex I've obtained contains choline which I feel that he needs, particularly with him being unable to tolerate eggs - ( Just the intolerance I needed with a cat with severe motility problems !  )

Of course I don't want to risk an intolerance to pork developing, but I'm extremely apprehensive of trying another protein after the rabbit failure. Did I move too quickly with that? It has taken me 7 weeks to build Dylan's cod liver oil dose from 2 drops per day to 8 drops per day. Should I have made my rabbit introduction more gradually ? There again with every other day vomiting on about 4g rabbit was it always doomed to failure?

I'm finding it difficult to feel upbeat today,- he vomited again this morning- but I will go on with this . I've come too far to go back. What would be the point of going back to wet food anyway? In 4 years I didn't ever find a single food he could tolerate.

I'm sure that I'll feel better once I've arrived at a complete diet, with preferably more than one protein. If I ever get to that stage I'll be happy to just sit back and wait for him to improve.

By the way, I've acquired some smaller gel caps - size 4 and these make the clo dosing easier. Unfortunately they're not as good for cramming Bioglan into. I'm seriously considering ordering some bio kult probiotics in the hope that he might find these acceptable without the need to pill them. The bio kult doesn't contain the same probiotic strains but I know that it is widely used with IBD cats.

I want to complete Dylan's transition to raw first but I am also starting to think about the " poo pills" talked about on the Raw for IBD Fb group.

https://www.animalbiome.com/products/cat-chronic-vomiting-remedy

I feel the need to have another option to try if needed. IMO there is nothing worse than feeling that I've exhausted all options.

I am aware that people in the UK have used this service but I'm slightly concerned as to how useful a poo sample from the UK would be by the time it reaches the US.


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## Forester

Dylan hasn't been sick since Wednesday morning. *If *he gets to midnight tonight without any further vomiting he will have clocked up 2 vomits in 2 weeks whilst on 2mg pred. daily.

I know that I should probably to be starting to try him with the duck ,however I'm concerned that another introduction will set him off again. I'm leaning towards waiting another week before attempting any change. My argument is that it will give me a better idea of how much progress we've actually made. The truth is probably a bit closer to me being terrified that his vomiting will increase and I'll feel disillusioned.

OH thinks that Dylan is so much better than he was six months ago , but I wonder whether he's saying that just to boost my spirits. With the pred. Dilly is better than he's been in years but without it I know that things would be unbearable for all of us.

I haven't managed to get any Bioglan into Dylan for over a week. I've ordered some Bio Kult to see whether he'll find that more palatable. I really don't think that I can " pill" more than 4 times a day.


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## Paddypaws

I would try the poo pills if I were you. I wouldn’t worry about the poo sample suffering during transit, the samples and tests don’t change the pills that you get, they are just used to map changes pre and post pills.


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I would try the poo pills if I were you. I wouldn't worry about the poo sample suffering during transit, the samples and tests don't change the pills that you get, they are just used to map changes pre and post pills.


Thanks PP. You do have a very good point about the quality of the fecal samples not making any difference to the treatment. Dumbo here hadn't thought about it that way. I'd like to get my vet's views before I commit myself but I do agree that some of the reports regarding the poo pills are very encouraging.

For now I will carry on with our transition. Dylan did make it to midnight last night so has vomited just twice during the last 2 weeks. November's total so far is 6 which , considering that by 5th Nov we were already on 4, is much better than he clocked up prior to the start of October.

I'm planning to leave the diet as it is ( pork + limestone flour + taurine + cod liver oil ) until the end of this month. From 1st December I will attempt to introduce some duck.


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## Forester

Dylan's current vomit free run ended on day 8.

I'm so glad that I decided to wait till next month before making any more changes . These good ( for Dylan ) spells are definitely becoming more frequent. It has lifted my spirits.

@Paddypaws . Next time I see my vet in person, as opposed to our usual phone consultations , I will get his opinions regarding the poo pills. I want to show him reports rather than just relating details orally.For the time being whilst Dylan is appearing to make progress I'm considering it to be an option to use after the transition. I intend to consult with my mentor from the Raw for IBD Fb group as to when she feels that it would be the most appropriate time to use the pills.


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## Forester

I've just been transferring some photos from my camera to the laptop and came across the following photo. I thought that it might form a more attractive entry to the diary than my usual musings. Not the best photo but it does show that he's not fading away with the raw diet.


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## Paddypaws

What a handsome lad he is! Wonderful glossy coat and a ‘well proportioned figure’


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> What a handsome lad he is! Wonderful glossy coat and a 'well proportioned figure'


Thank you PP.

Dylan does seem rather proud of his extra cushioning. .It is a joy to see him now. Prior to starting the transition he was beginning to look a little too slim.


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## Forester

One happy slave here.

Dylan's vomit total for November was 9 - not bad considering that it includes the consequences of the aborted pred. reduction trial. What pleases me most is that his total for October and November combined is 17, 10 less than his total for August plus September (27 ). He's always had a habit of producing the occasional good week but this is sustained improvement. My joy is tempered somewhat by his reliance on pred to keep that inflammation down but we're moving in the right direction.

Dylan is still on just pork shoulder + limestone flour + taurine + cod liver oil. I had intended to start trying to introduce just a tiny amount of duck breast from today but I've decided to wait a couple more days. I'll probably start on Monday.

Medication wise he's having 2mg pred. daily plus 3.3mg cetirizine plus a probiotic. I've been using http://www.bio-kult.com/about-bio-kult/13-about-bio-kult-advanced instead of the Bioglan as Dylan is refusing to eat the Bioglan. The Bio kult capsules are smaller that the Bioglan ones so can be administered by just smearing the capsule in butter. I intend to seek advice from the Raw for IBD group as to whether the bio kult will provide sufficient live organisms to be used long term.

Pilling Dylan is becoming more difficult. 4 times daily seems just too much for him to cope with comfortably. Over the last couple of days I've reduced to 3 times by giving 3 drops of clo each time. The morning and evening doses are accompanied by pred and cetirizine , the early afternoon one by probiotics.

I weighed Dylan earlier in the week and he still registers as 5.71kg.

I haven't looked too closely at the website yet but I have discovered another supplier of human quality meat which might be useful in future.
https://www.wildmeat.co.uk/products/squirrel

My first impression is they they're pretty expensive but they might be useful for someone , sometime.


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## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> I've just been transferring some photos from my camera to the laptop and came across the following photo. I thought that it might form a more attractive entry to the diary than my usual musings. Not the best photo but it does show that he's not fading away with the raw diet.
> 
> View attachment 333894


He really is looking fabulous!


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> He really is looking fabulous!


Thank you .I am very pleased with his appearance. If someone wasn't aware of his condition I don't think that they'd ever guess.


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## Forester

I've decided to keep the duck introduction on hold for a little longer. Dylan's most recent vomit was Monday morning- 6 and a half days ago.. I'd like to see how long he can go before the next puke so don't want to upset the applecart. I'm also keen to see how many ( or few ! ) vomits he can record in the month from 6th Nov , when I reinstated the 2mg pred. dose to 5th Dec. His total for that period currently stands at . . . .5. Yes, that is 5 in almost a month.







We've had that number in 36 hours in the past.

I _was_ intending to research a different probiotic to try Dylan on as I'm finding it impossible to get him to take the Bioglan. I'm putting that on hold too as he currently seems to be doing well with the bio kult .

I know that I'm a coward but- if something seems to be working I'm sticking with it.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I've decided to keep the duck introduction on hold for a little longer. Dylan's most recent vomit was Monday morning- 6 and a half days ago.. I'd like to see how long he can go before the next puke so don't want to upset the applecart. I'm also keen to see how many ( or few ! ) vomits he can record in the month from 6th Nov , when I reinstated the 2mg pred. dose to 5th Dec. His total for that period currently stands at . . . .5. Yes, that is 5 in almost a month.
> View attachment 335136
> We've had that number in 36 hours in the past.
> 
> I _was_ intending to research a different probiotic to try Dylan on as I'm finding it impossible to get him to take the Bioglan. I'm putting that on hold too as he currently seems to be doing well with the bio kult .
> 
> I know that I'm a coward but- if something seems to be working I'm sticking with it.


I think your decisions are very intuitive. xx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I think your decisions are very intuitive. xx


I just hope that my intuition will serve me well now that we *are *making progress. When Dylan was first vomiting I was convinced that it had something to do with him being stressed at night time, or stressed about food, picking up on my anxiety about him, or even because his food dish was too close to a litter tray. At one time I even attributed a whole week of vomits to Dylan being afraid of a new pair of shoes which I'd bought.

This is the most relaxed I've ever been about Dylan's vomiting since I adopted him. I've previously spent almost every waking moment trying to find a way to help him. Now I feel that I know how best to help him - with a diet which is raw and complete- I just have to find a way to get him fully transitioned. xx


----------



## chillminx

Dylan is looking wonderful Forester! What a handsome fellow he is!  I do love black cats. 

I'm very pleased to read your recent updates of progress in the number of times Dylan has vomited recently. And equally pleased to hear you are feeling more relaxed about the situation than before. 

Incidentally, I have been buying from The Wild Meat Company for the past couple of years since my last supplier of quality raw meat closed when the owner retired. It is true the meat from WMC is expensive but the quality is good so I don't mind paying. However, my cats are not on a 100% raw diet, if they were I could not afford to feed them from the Wild Meat Co.

I don't eat much meat myself, and am not too fond of chicken, but the chicken legs from The Wild Meat Co are the best I have tasted!


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## Forester

@chillminx Thank you for your kind words regarding Dylan's appearance. IMHO his coat is softer and shinier than ever before . He also seems more relaxed and content.

It is good to know that you recommend The Wild Meat Company personally  Like you , I couldn't afford to feed their meat in large quantities but it is good to know that they are there, should they be needed.

With Dylan my priority has to be providing food which he can tolerate , and at the moment there isn't much choice over that ! I would be willing to eat cheap meat forever if it allowed Dylan to have food which didn't make him vomit.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> With Dylan my priority has to be providing food which he can tolerate ,


As you know I have the same issue with my girl. the other two eat regular grocery store meat. But my (suspected) IBD girl has to have certified organic, non-GMO Project verified meat and eggs.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> As you know I have the same issue with my girl. the other two eat regular grocery store meat. But my (suspected) IBD girl has to have certified organic, non-GMO Project verified meat and eggs.


I know that you understand how difficult it is. ((( hug )))

Finally finding a food ( pork - ultra fresh from my local butcher ) which Dylan can cope with feels like winning the lottery. I'm not joking when I say that we must have tried 30 different foods , if not more, with him over the years.

A quick update on Dylan's recent good run. It ended this morning. 6 vomits in a month is still pretty amazing though. I don't think that we've achieved that since early 2014.


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## Forester

Dylan was sick Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday mornings but not yesterday or today . After the 3rd vomit I decided to try taking his cod liver oil dose back to 2 drops , 4x daily ( I'd been giving 3 drops 3x daily for a few days ). Maybe 3 drops at a time is too much for him to cope with at the moment.

He's also been slightly subdued and looked uncomfortable at times . This morning I even considered whether a trip to the vets might be a good idea. Luckily he perked up ( once I produced his favourite toys  ). It seems that he's just addicted to making me worry about him.

I'll start giving just a tiny piece of duck soon - but not until Dylan's looked comfortable for a few days.


----------



## Forester

Urgh, Dylan was sick again this morning. He's also still looking uncomfortable at times. Our transition seems to be stuck in a bit of a rut.

I've asked for advice from the Raw for IBD Fb group and I'm also planning to get Dylan checked over by my vet in the next few days. I have a feeling that he may have a wad of fur stuck in his stomach.


----------



## Forester

Dylan hasn't been sick today yet and appears much more comfortable. I haven't booked a vet appointment , just as well as I'm snowed in, but I am monitoring the situation closely.

He has been doing his best to make me think that I've been imagining his previous discomfort. Today he's been doing Max Whitlock impressions and playing with some snow which had drifted into his run.

Note : I shovelled 98% of the snow from Dylan's run onto the lawn before he went out.He only had the odd clump to play with. 

(Just making sure that no one thought that I'd turfed him out in Arctic conditions.)


----------



## Forester

Dylan seems back to his normal happy self although he left part of his breakfast on the carpet again. Whilst he's looking comfortable 99% of the time I will hold off on the vet visit . I will however take him if he shows signs of prolonged discomfort.

I was hoping to get advice from the Raw for IBD forum regarding how to further his transition to a complete raw diet . Unfortunately that advice hasn't materialised.

I have received suggestions of ways to relieve his nausea though. One suggestion is to give a few drops of raw Apple Cider Vinegar . My first reaction was to start it this morning but I've had second thoughts after doing some research. I've seen suggestions that the acetic acid , although not as strong as the natural stomach acid which is hydrochloric acid, might irritate his already inflammed intestines. I'm petrified of giving Dylan anything which might possibly make him worse so I'm going to hold off on that for now. He's looking more comfortable again anyway so maybe he's just been having a " blip ".

It is just so hard to know what to try for him.

I think that what I need is to get this transition moving again.


----------



## Forester

I think that I may have discovered the reason for Dylan's recent discomfort. He's had a poo this afternoon which contained several small clumps of hair. Don't ask how I know about the hair. Being slave to a cat with IBD can cause one to develop some strange habits!  

I feel a lot better now.


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## Paddypaws

It's good that the hair came out in the poop though, yes?


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I think that I may have discovered the reason for Dylan's recent discomfort. He's had a poo this afternoon which contained several small clumps of hair. Don't ask how I know about the hair. Being slave to a cat with IBD can cause one to develop some strange habits!
> 
> I feel a lot better now.


I was just catching up with this thread and about to ask you if you'd been checking his poop for fur, then I came to the end of the thread.

I am not at all surprised to hear this. So glad he's finally moved it and is feeling better.

ACV is actually anti-inflammatory. Can you point to where you read that about it being inflammatory to the intestines? I'd like to learn about that, having never heard of it before.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I was just catching up with this thread and about to ask you if you'd been checking his poop for fur, then I came to the end of the thread.
> 
> I am not at all surprised to hear this. So glad he's finally moved it and is feeling better.
> 
> ACV is actually anti-inflammatory. *Can you point to where you read that about it being inflammatory to the intestines? *I'd like to learn about that, having never heard of it before.


I'll search for it. I'm sorry that I didn't bookmark the article at the time. I was in a bit of a panic as I'm sure that you'll understand. The article did not say that ACV was inflammatory but that the acidity would burn inflamed intestinal tissue and could lead to ulcers. If I remember correctly it was in an article relating to human disease rather than feline. I'll post a link if I can find it again. Sorry, I know that it is bad to not save my references but I'm all over the place at the moment. I have a lot going on.

__________________________________

On a brighter note Dylan has kept breakfast down this morning ,and if the tail chasing and general larking about is an indicator, he's feeling fine. It's just me who feels dejected.


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> It's good that the hair came out in the poop though, yes?


Yes!!!!!! .


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I'll search for it. I'm sorry that I didn't bookmark the article at the time. I was in a bit of a panic as I'm sure that you'll understand. The article did not say that ACV was inflammatory but that the acidity would burn inflamed intestinal tissue and could lead to ulcers. If I remember correctly it was in an article relating to human disease rather than feline. I'll post a link if I can find it again. Sorry, I know that it is bad to not save my references but I'm all over the place at the moment. I have a lot going on.
> 
> __________________________________
> 
> On a brighter note Dylan has kept breakfast down this morning ,and if the tail chasing and general larking about is an indicator, he's feeling fine. It's just me who feels dejected.


Oh I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. I'll do some searching myself and see what I can find. Of course you won't do anything for Dylan that makes you uncomfortable. I don't save things either. Or if I do, I can never find them or go back to them again.

So glad he's doing better this morning!


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Oh I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. I'll do some searching myself and see what I can find. Of course you won't do anything for Dylan that makes you uncomfortable. I don't save things either. Or if I do, I can never find them or go back to them again.
> 
> So glad he's doing better this morning!


I can't seem to find it now, instead I've found numerous anecdotal accounts which recommend acv ( and interestingly cabbage :Wideyed ) for digestive ailments. I find the mention of cabbage particularly interesting as Dylan used to be obsessed with it. He once chewed through a margarine carton to get to , and eat, some leftover cooked cabbage.

I wonder whether @Paddypaws might be able to provide input on the use of acv, ( or cabbage water.! ). I'm pretty sure that she could be relied on to provide reliable scientific references- unlike me .

Logic would tell me that acv , as a digestive enzyme , might cause digestion of an inflamed digestive tract, but I'd be over the moon to see evidence to the contrary.

ETA I seem to remember that the article that I can't find again mentioned that ACV would slow gastric emptying somehow.

I think that what Dylan really needs is something to help move that fur through his system. With him having fibrosis throughout his GI system I worry about him getting a blockage.


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## lorilu

Well, and I am not trying to talk you into anything here, just sharing what I know, ACV actually may improve motility. It increases the absorption of the minerals calcium and magnesium. Calcium is important in the contraction of muscle, and magnesium is important in the relaxation of muscle, which, of course is what motility is all about. xx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Well, and I am not trying to talk you into anything here, just sharing what I know, ACV actually may improve motility. It increases the absorption of the minerals calcium and magnesium. Calcium is important in the contraction of muscle, and magnesium is important in the relaxation of muscle, which, of course is what motility is all about. xx


Thank you.

I haven't been able to find where I read that ACV shouldn't be given when the digestive system is inflamed. I'm starting to wonder whether I misinterpreted something in my state of panic. I do feel that poor motility is the cause of Dylan's vomiting and I'd like to be able to improve that. I need a way to get that fur moving through. Yesterday produced several small clumps but they were only very small.

I also find the length of time that Dylan has been on an incomplete diet a concern however I don't know how to move on. I might try to introduce some duck next week which , although not a move towards completeness, is what I was last advised to do.


----------



## Paddypaws

I’m afraid I am terrible at keeping links to articles! 
I don’t know a lot about ACV although I know that some people swear it’s good for everything! In humans, low stomach acid is a common issue especially as we age so I can see it’s benefit but have never been sure about it’s use for cats, if only because of the taste! 
Cabbage and cabbage water contain butyrate I think which is what helps heal the gut. 
For motility I would look to Milk thistle which improves bile flow which in turn instructs the bowel to move. 
Ha, now I have given you another research topic!


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I'm afraid I am terrible at keeping links to articles!
> I don't know a lot about ACV although I know that some people swear it's good for everything! In humans, low stomach acid is a common issue especially as we age so I can see it's benefit but have never been sure about it's use for cats, if only because of the taste!
> Cabbage and cabbage water contain butyrate I think which is what helps heal the gut.
> For motility I would look to Milk thistle which improves bile flow which in turn instructs the bowel to move.
> *Ha, now I have given you another research topic!*


*
*
Thank you @Paddypaws. I've received advice from my mentor on the Raw for IBD Fb group and her advice is also to try Dylan with Apple Cider Vinegar.I know that the taste of it is awful; my OH once decided that it would benefit both of us . That was until he tasted it ! If Dylan won't touch food with it added I can always add it to the capsules containing the rest of his supplements.

Right, I'm off to research Milk thistle and butyrate. At least all this reading will keep me off the streets at night.

P S Dylan has just been sick again. Unfortunately OH decided to pick him up and walk towards me so a trail was left along the hallway.- not our day, again !


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## lorilu

I have not had trouble with the ACV and my cats. They don't mind it at all. I also take it myself. 1 tablespoon in a glass of water 1-3 times a day, depending. : )


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## chillminx

@Forester - I guess you have tried adding a little mashed squash into Dylan's food, for added fibre to improve motility? I cook butternut squash, mash it and add half a teaspoonful to one of my cat's meals a day as she has a slow metabolism and passes hard dry stools if I don't.


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> @Forester - I guess you have tried adding a little mashed squash into Dylan's food, for added fibre to improve motility? I cook butternut squash, mash it and add half a teaspoonful to one of my cat's meals a day as she has a slow metabolism and passes hard dry stools if I don't.


 CM I've tried pumpkin ( Libby's ) but the little sausage wouldn't touch it , or any food within 3 ft of it. He can detect something " foreign" in his food from the other side of the room.

I've attempted to start ACV with Dylan this morning .I diluted a little with 3 or four times its volume of water and then added 1 drop to his first portion of breakfast. He ate it!. I'm amazed. When I've tried him with bone broth he won't even go within 10 ft of it. Yes, I know that he's only had approximately 1/3 of a drop but with Dylan everything has to be introduced in minute increments. I usually start with 1/10th or even 1/20th of a dose depending what the ingredient is, any more and he will react.

Breakfast today has been eaten and not returned.

I suppose that I should have seen this bad patch coming, he'd been so good over the last couple of months. Never mind, on we go. This journey to raw is a long one and although it's not what I would describe as enjoyable, it is rewarding to finally make progress.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I have not had trouble with the ACV and my cats. They don't mind it at all. I also take it myself. 1 tablespoon in a glass of water 1-3 times a day, depending. : )


Its great to know that neither you or your cats mind the ACV. My only attempt at taking it several years ago was not repeated. I'm a wimp!

I'm amazed, but extremely grateful, that Dylan didn't seem to notice his 1/3 drop this morning. Maybe this is just what I need to get him back on track. I will be repeating the administration with his next meal.


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## Forester

Well, Dylan had 1 drop of diluted ACV with each meal yesterday and 2 drops with each today. 

I thought that he looked a bit uncomfortable this morning till I realised that he was studying a spider.

He hasn't been sick since Wednesday.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Well, Dylan had 1 drop of diluted ACV with each meal yesterday and 2 drops with each today.
> 
> I thought that he looked a bit uncomfortable this morning till I realised that he was studying a spider.
> 
> He hasn't been sick since Wednesday.


Great news! I would stick to the two drops per meal for a couple of days before another increase.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Great news! I would stick to the two drops per meal for a couple of days before another increase.


Thanks.

We're not up to the equivalent of one drop of acv with each meal yet as I diluted it approx. 1 :3 with water to give us more gradual start. I also thought that dilution would help to get him accustomed to the smell. Would you still hold back on an increase for a few days ? I'd planned to get him to the equivalent of one drop per meal before holding steady for a few days but will do whatever you recommend. After all you know far more about giving acv than I do.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Thanks.
> 
> We're not up to the equivalent of one drop of acv with each meal yet as I diluted it approx. 1 :3 with water to give us more gradual start. I also thought that dilution would help to get him accustomed to the smell. Would you still hold back on an increase for a few days ? I'd planned to get him to the equivalent of one drop per meal before holding steady for a few days but will do whatever you recommend. After all you know far more about giving acv than I do.


I think the dilution was very smart of you, and I do understand why you are doing it that way. I just think any change, no matter how tiny, should be done excruciatingly slowly! Maybe another day, maybe two, at the level you're at now before increasing again.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I think the dilution was very smart of you, and I do understand why you are doing it that way. I just think any change, no matter how tiny, should be done excruciatingly slowly! Maybe another day, maybe two, at the level you're at now before increasing again.


Sticking to 2 drops today, and tomorrow. I'll see how things are on Monday before considering 3. We understand excruciatingly slowly. I think that it took 8 weeks to get his cod liver oil dose to an acceptable level.


----------



## Forester

I'm giving 2 drops of diluted acv with each meal today.

Dylan was sick yesterday ( lunch ) and again today ( breakfast ) . I'm starting to wonder whether the change in probiotic may have played a hand in this 2 week long bad patch. When he first went onto the Biokult https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Kult-A...sr=1-1&keywords=biokult+advanced+multi+strain he wasn't sick for almost a week but since then we seem to have gone downhill. I've posed a question in the Raw for IBD group to see whether people think that there could be a connection.

I've managed to get Dylan to take Bioglan this morning, ( with the aid of some Fortiflora ) and will be trying to get him back onto this as my first choice probiotic.


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## lorilu

The Bioglan has s.boulardii, the Biokult does not. That is the main difference I see.


----------



## Forester

I think that the raw apple cider vinegar is helping Dylan. To my huge relief he's definitely looking more comfortable than he was a week - 10 days ago.

I'm now giving 3 drops of my diluted solution ( approximately 1 part acv : 3 parts water ) with each of Dylan's meals. His appetite has gone berserk again but we're used to that. I'm trying to restrict him to 180g per day max but it's hard when he sits by his empty dish constantly asking for food!!!!!!!!!

The insatiable appetite has had an unexpected bonus though- he's started eating his Bioglan again. He's cottoned on that he won't get fed whilst he has unconsumed probiotics.

He was last sick on Sunday so I'm starting to hope that the recent bad run may be over.

@lorilu , You're so right. My super finicky cat who can detect an alien food ingredient from 50 yards seems completely oblivious to the presence of the ACV in his food. My fridge smells like a chip shop but Dylan couldn't seem to care less!


----------



## Forester

Dylan would like to extend his best wishes for the festive period to everyone who has been willing him on with his transition to raw. I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't have kept going without you all.

He's just clocked up another calendar week without any vomiting. He's managed 4 vomit free weeks this year, 3 of them since going all raw so I think that it is a sign of progress. The ACV does definitely appear to be helping. He looks much more comfortable after eating than he did a couple of weeks ago although he did vomit breakfast this morning. I suspect that today's vomit was caused by overindulgence with some rather potent catnip which had been liberally sprinkled over one of his presents. He may have been sick but he was very, very happy!

I've been " chatting" to one of the owners of Foodfurlife, who make the EZcomplete premix, and we've decided to try to push Dylan's transition on a little. It had been suggested that I identify another protein which he tolerates before advancing the transition but we're going to change the plan. I just can't relax whilst Dylan's diet is less than complete. We're going for the addition of Choline. Choline is important for brain function, liver function and , of particular relevance to Dylan, gut motility. Choline levels in a raw diet would normally be satisfied through the inclusion of liver and eggs however Dylan can't currently tolerate either of these sources. We're therefore going to try adding choline in the form of choline bitartrate. I'm slightly anxious as vomiting is a well known side effect of too much choline however, at the moment, Dylan is getting almost none. I've been given a calculation of how much will be necessary to satisfy Dylan's needs. I haven't ordered the choline yet, will do so in the next couple of days. As always, I'll start by giving just a fraction of the target dose then building up slowly.


----------



## Forester

@Paddypaws , You may be interested to know that I've joined the Fecal Transplants for cats and dogs Fb group. I want as much information to hand as possible when I come to discuss this idea with my vet.


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## Paddypaws

Forester said:


> @Paddypaws , You may be interested to know that I've joined the Fecal Transplants for cats and dogs Fb group. I want as much information to hand as possible when I come to discuss this idea with my vet.


Excellent! I will indeed be very interested to see how things pan out should you try that route. I am also kicking myself for throwing out the choline I had! I will double check tomorrow just in case i tucked it away


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Excellent! I will indeed be very interested to see how things pan out should you try that route. I am also kicking myself for throwing out the choline I had! I will double check tomorrow just in case i tucked it away


Thank you for the possible offer of choline. It is very kind of you, as always!

Joining the Fb group has to be the best way to get knowledgeable information.


----------



## Forester

I'd had high hopes that Dylan might register three successive months with his vomit total in single figures. Had December been one day shorter we'd have made it. Never mind, the average total for the last three months is 9. , a significant improvement over his pre raw totals.

I've started to advance the transition a little more by starting to add choline. Dylan needs 23mg choline bitartrate per 10g food. He's currently eating 140g - 160g per day so, as capsules are 350mg I plan to very slowly work up to giving 1 capsule per day. I've started with approximately 10mg added to Dylan's taurine and then divided between his meals. I know that 10mg is a tiny amount but this is Dylan and he will react if try to give too much too soon. I don't mind how long it takes up to get to a full dose so long as we get there. I'd rather go extra cautiously than have to go back to square one because I've rushed things.

My vet seems very happy with the current situation. He has mentioned that we could probably get Dylan's vomiting down further by increasing the pred, but we think that we have a good balance at the moment. Increasing Dylan's pred would increase the toll on his heart and kidneys and I don't want to do that. I'm hopeful that vomiting totals are going to come down further as we continue with the raw diet.

Dylan seems to be passing increasing amounts of hair so I'm hopeful that his motility is improving. This journey to raw may seem to have been going on for a long time but we have come a very long way. I, for one am happy with the way that 2017 has turned out for Dylan and I'm hopeful that 2018 will be even better.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan seems to be passing increasing amounts of hair so I'm hopeful that his motility is improving. This journey to raw may seem to have been going on for a long time but we have come a very long way. I, for one am happy with the way that 2017 has turned out for Dylan and I'm hopeful that 2018 will be even better.


Increasing amounts of fur in the poop was my experience after staring the ACV as well. Thanks for the happy update!


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Increasing amounts of fur in the poop was my experience after staring the ACV as well. Thanks for the happy update!


Ha ha. The pleasure is mine, and Dylan's. Thank *you* for the ACV suggestion. I've standardised Dylan's ACV dilution now so that I can quantify exactly how much I'm giving. I now dilute 1 part acv with 2 parts water and then administer 4 drops spread throughout each meal. I'm leaving the acv dose constant whilst I gradually increase the choline. I haven't increased his choline dosage yet but may do so tomorrow. I have , however, realised that I've miscalculated and have been giving approx 25 mg per day anyway .


----------



## Forester

Dylan managed to get through another calendar week without vomiting. That makes 2 out of the last three weeks.

He is now almost unrecognisable from the cat who started this transition. His coat is soft and shiny, and he's building muscle , as well as his fat pad.

Right now the raw diet appears to be the best thing ever to happen to him.


----------



## Forester

The last week has been a bad one by Dylan's recent standards. He's been sick 3 times. If I look at the bigger picture the last 31 days has yielded " just" 7 vomits which is however , *the best total we've had for a month in the last couple of years*. I think that the general trend of continuous improvement is the best way to look at the situation.

Regarding diet Dylan is now having pork shoulder + calcium carbonate + taurine + cod liver oil + approx. 70mg choline ( 20% of the target dose ). He's also having 4 drops of diluted apple cider vinegar with each meal. Meds wise he's on 1mg pred twice daily, 3.3mg cetirizine and 1 capsule Bioglan pro biotic.

The really frustrating thing about the last 2 vomits is that I was almost certain that they would occur before I fed Dylan, but did not know how to prevent them. As usual it was his first meal of the day which came back. It wasn't down to stomach acid because he'd had 2 meals during the night. There is always a higher chance of breakfast coming back when meal times on the previous day have got " out of sync" with our usual pattern. I've found that Dylan does best when allowed to eat when he feels like it so set meal times do not work well. If I feed when he doesn't feel hungry he will be sick. If he gets too hungry he will be sick. 95% of vomits occur between 7am and 10am.


----------



## carly87

Is he shut out of your bedroom at night? Is he more worked up about his food in the morning? Does he get a bigger portion in the morning? Are there school children/dog walkers/anything noisy or that he can see that passes by our house between those hours that might increase his stress or excitement?


----------



## Forester

carly87 said:


> Is he shut out of your bedroom at night? Is he more worked up about his food in the morning? Does he get a bigger portion in the morning? Are there school children/dog walkers/anything noisy or that he can see that passes by our house between those hours that might increase his stress or excitement?


Yes , @carly87 , he *is *shut out of the bedroom at night and has been for the last 9 months or so.

Before March 17, he always spent the night with me but would keep me awake by crying almost all night every night.I was lucky to sleep more than half an hour at a stretch. I had to shut him out to protect my own health. Until he was shut out of the bedroom he would be sick under my bed in the early hours of the morning approximately twice a week. Since being shut out he has only ever been sick during the night on one occasion.

His meals are all the same size, 20g. He can't cope with large quantities.

He *is *super excited to see me in the morning however he was just as likely to vomit breakfast in the days before he was banished from the bedroom. He is also excited to see me when I return home after being out ,but he is never sick then. Strangely enough, on the one evening a month when I go out ,Dylan has never ever been sick.

I'm not aware of anything happening in the morning, other than me getting up, which might excite or stress him. The vomiting can occur up to 3 hours after I get up although it is always 8 - 10 minutes after Dylan eats.

Dylan does have a motility problem. He has fibrosis throughout his digestive tract as well as eosinophilic, neutraphilic *and *lympho plasmacytic inflammation. He was diagnosed with IBD x 3 at Langford via endoscopic biopsies.

I apologise if I've rambled on . I didn't want to miss out anything which might be relevant.


----------



## Forester

Dylan has been sick again this morning. That makes 4 in 8 days. This brings me back to earth somewhat after the euphoria of the three weeks with only 2 vomits. 

It has been enough to make me scrutinise my actions over the last week to 10 days. I've increased Dylan's choline from approx. 50mg to approx. 70g. My initial thought after this morning's cleanup was to leave the choline off completely for a couple of days , and then restart at 50mg. Since then I've had another thought. Last Tuesday I started to mix Dylan's cod liver oil directly into his food instead of giving it in capsules 4 times a day. I'm wondering whether the taste of the clo is stressing him. Dylan doesn't like the capsules but I'm guessing that he's finding the taste of the clo even worse.

I have now discarded the meals which I'd prepared ready for today and am starting again without the inclusion of clo. I'm desperately hoping that this makes a difference as ( my ) stress levels are rising again. I'm also going to hunt again for smaller empty gel capsules. I'm using size 4 at the moment but there is a size 6 which are much smaller, if only I can find some.

On days like this I get quite angry with the world. This poor little cat has never done anything to harm anyone, it feels so unfair that life is treating him this way.


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## lorilu

{{{{hug}}} You are doing everything you can. Just remember, with this disease, there is often never any rhyme or reason to the vomiting episodes. While Dylan and my girl have different issues, his being much more challenging I think, their patterns have been remarkably similar. Of course we're 5 years further along than you, so I am speaking from memory and experience. And often this is what happens. A change makes a positive difference, but eventually there are steps backwards, anyway. The roller coaster ride never stops. I'm sorry, this isn't sounding as encouraging as I meant it to. I just hope knowing someone else has been through it helps.

Also like you I have had those despairing moments when I just want to scream at the universe "LEAVE HER ALONE! JUST LEAVE HER THE F ALONE! SHE'S NEVER DONE ANYTHING TO DESERVE THIS!" (Actually I confess to have indulged myself in screaming this. )

Then I try to remind myself (and you with Dylan) she doesn't know she's sick. Because of me (and Dylan, because of you) she has the best quality of life any cat could ever hope for, healthy or sick. She's glowing with health. Her activity level is on par with a cat half her age (and I know because I have a highly active 7 year old cat who can barely keep up with her!). She is happy, comfortable as I can make her, and loves her life.

The same goes for your Dylan. xxxxxxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> {{{{hug}}} You are doing everything you can. Just remember, with this disease, there is often never any rhyme or reason to the vomiting episodes. While Dylan and my girl have different issues, his being much more challenging I think, their patterns have been remarkably similar. Of course we're 5 years further along than you, so I am speaking from memory and experience. And often this is what happens. A change makes a positive difference, but eventually there are steps backwards, anyway. The roller coaster ride never stops. I'm sorry, this isn't sounding as encouraging as I meant it to. I just hope knowing someone else has been through it helps.
> 
> Also like you I have had those despairing moments when I just want to scream at the universe "LEAVE HER ALONE! JUST LEAVE HER THE F ALONE! SHE'S NEVER DONE ANYTHING TO DESERVE THIS!" (Actually I confess to have indulged myself in screaming this. )
> 
> Then I try to remind myself (and you with Dylan) she doesn't know she's sick. Because of me (and Dylan, because of you) she has the best quality of life any cat could ever hope for, healthy or sick. She's glowing with health. Her activity level is on par with a cat half her age (and I know because I have a highly active 7 year old cat who can barely keep up with her!). She is happy, comfortable as I can make her, and loves her life.
> 
> The same goes for your Dylan. xxxxxxxx


I'm so sorry that you've had, and are still having, the experiences which mean that you understand ; yet am so glad that you do.{{{{ hug reciprocated }}}}. Knowing that someone else understands *does *help.

I've read you message through falling tears but am glad that , in general, things *are *getting much better since I started to transition Dylan to raw. Before then, and before I banished my lovely lad from the bedroom at night, tears over him, and his struggle, were a daily occurrence. It was living HELL.

You're so right. Dylan doesn't know that he's ill. At times in the evenings, when he lies next to me , with his legs in the air as I scratch his tummy and his head, he looks to be the happiest cat in the world.

I suppose that I have to put this bad spell into perspective. This time last year Dylan was eating 425g JWB lamb per day, vomiting 3 times a week, every week and was losing weight.I was in tears every day. Now he looks absolutely fabulous, in fact better than he's ever done. This is just a setback.

Thank you for your kind words, they have helped. xxxxxxx


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## carly87

Obviously I have no idea of the stress you are going through with this, and feel like I'm sticking my nose into a problem that doesn't concern me as I've never been through what you have with your lad, but if avoiding the CLO doesn't work, could you try letting him into your orom once to see if it is perhaps the worry/stress re not seeing you that is working him up and making him have morning sickness? I'm assuming he gets feeds through the night and is not building up stomach acid or anything like that, so that won't be the problem. Just seems very coincidental that most are in the morning.


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## Paddypaws

Oh @Forester I am so sad to hear that you have been reduced to tears again by the lovely Dylan!
I agree with @lorilu ....he doesn't know he is ill! he is a happy, pampered puss with the best carer in the world. Just look at him and remind yourself of how much better he looks now than a year ago
Big hugs.


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## Forester

@carly87, I hadn't realised that you weren't aware but Dylan had been vomiting, predominantly at breakfast time for 3 years before I took the decision to exclude him from my bedroom at night. I fought with that decision for months before I finally made it. In excluding him I felt that I was letting him down but I couldn't function without sleep any longer. I was a mental and physical wreck.

When allowed in the bedroom Dylan is fine, cuddly and purry . . .until the light goes out. When the light goes out he cries as loudly as he can for as long as it takes me to turn the light back on. Then he stops.. . . until the light goes out again. This can, and will go on all night. When in the bedroom Dylan will regularly vomit under the bed at 2.30am. He will also vomit in the bed whilst I'm clearing up the vomit from under the bed. I've been known to go through 2 duvets in a week. I quite simply cannot cope with the lack of sleep which goes with Dylan's presence in the bedroom any longer.

Dylan was described by the specialists at Langford as an extremely complicated, challenging and confusing case. His IBD is about as bad as it gets, not in terms of severe inflammation, but because he has it 3 times over. Most of the inflammation is eosinophilic which is the most difficult type to treat as well as the least responsive to med's. Added to this he has fibrosis throughout his digestive system. I can't say much about the fibrosis other than that my vet made me promise her that I wouldn't google it.It is not good.

I'm not withdrawing the cod liver oil, merely going back to giving it in capsules. Dylan has to have the clo. It is his only source of vitamin A as he is unable to tolerate liver .

I apologise sincerely if I sound blunt or unappreciative. I don't mean to at all.I am grateful for any input which might help. My problem is that I've been through Hell with this cat for almost 5 years and it doesn't take much to put me back " on the edge".

Thanks for your help. xx


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Oh @Forester I am so sad to hear that you have been reduced to tears again by the lovely Dylan!
> I agree with @lorilu ....he doesn't know he is ill! he is a happy, pampered puss with the best carer in the world. Just look at him and remind yourself of how much better he looks now than a year ago
> Big hugs.


Thank you so much @Paddypaws. I know that I would not have got this far without you and @lorilu. Your words are a great comfort to me.

I'm wondering whether I'm now feeling so low because I've been so much more positive recently. There is further to fall. I know that this raw diet is the best thing to ever happen to Dylan. This is just a blip and we'll get over it. He does look amazing 
xx

To update again, we've just had another close call. Dylan ate then assumed vomit position. I picked him up then carried him around with his body in a vertical position, caressing him and talking sweetly to him. It worked, as it often does. I'm guessing that he's discovered that the food doesn't contain cod liver oil any more and he's trying to eat too much in a short space of time.Life with Dylan is never dull!.


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## Paddypaws

It's 'Blue Monday' today apparently so outside influences are at work!


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> It's 'Blue Monday' today apparently so outside influences are at work!


Thanks @Paddypaws. you've just made me laugh and laughing *does *make someone feel better.


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## oliviarussian

Big hugs Sylv, you’re allowed a little cry now and again just don’t forget how far you’ve come with him x


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> Big hugs Sylv, you're allowed a little cry now and again just don't forget how far you've come with him x


Thanks, Janis.The support that you and other members of this forum have provided me with is amazing. I will never, ever give up trying to help this lovely lad but there are times when I'm so grateful that you're all willing me on , and picking up the pieces when I think that I'm falling apart.

We *will *get there. TBH , I feel so much better now that I realise that this blip is all down to it being " Blue Monday".

xx


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I'm wondering whether I'm now feeling so low because I've been so much more positive recently. There is further to fall. I know that this raw diet is the best thing to ever happen to Dylan. This is just a blip and we'll get over it. He does look amazing
> xx


I would say an unequivocal YES to this. And again, it is because I have experienced the same thing many time. Hope rises, which is not a bad thing, but each time there is a down slope on the roller coaster, it's devastating.



Forester said:


> To update again, we've just had another close call. Dylan ate then assumed vomit position. I picked him up then carried him around with his body in a vertical position, caressing him and talking sweetly to him. It worked, as it often does.


I have done this myself, with my precious girl. Not often, because sometimes ..it just needs to come out. And if it does, it will, regardless of my efforts. And I worry about aspiration, if it's gotten too far started.

But sometimes, the only thing going on is the need to burp. Their vomit reflex is so ingrained, even a little air coming up can make them puke, and if we can distract them and deter it, it's a good thing.


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## Forester

@lorilu ,One positive I can think of is that, over time, we learn that the downs of the roller coaster are just temporary, although no less devastating. When I first started out with Dylan each downturn felt like the end of the world.

I developed the habit of holding Dylan with his body vertical for 2 reasons. I believe that the vomit happens because food is unable to pass out of the stomach and holding him vertically allows gravity to assist. In addition to this , he often appears to be comforted by me holding him that way and singing to him at the same time. I have no idea whether my feelings about holding Dylan this way are correct but the practice does seem to work around 50- 60% of the time. Oh,and it also allows me to take him where the view from a window might distract him from feeling nauseous.


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## Forester

Things are looking a little better today.

Dylan hasn't been sick ( yet ) although he looked somewhat nauseous after his first breakfast.

I'm back to dosing the clo in capsules and he's eating considerably better ( over the last few days he'd been eating with less enthusiasm than normal and had been repeatedly " covering" his bowl ). I'm hopeful that we're back on track, although only time will tell.


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## Forester

Dylan has been fine today. I'm relatively confident that the recent blip was caused by incorporating Dylan's cod liver oil with his food. It looks as though the problem is not always what I'm feeding , but the way that I feed it. 

Bless Dylan, he can be relied on to keep me on my toes!!!!


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## Forester

Dylan has been vomit free since I started giving the cod liver oil in capsules again. Despite his recent bad run ( 4 vomits in 8 days ) his total for the last 31 days is 6.

Tomorrow I'm intending to increase his choline from 70mg to 100mg.

I did see a tiny bright red spot on the surface of Dylan's poo this morning but I'm hoping that it is just because the poo is rock hard. He always " goes" overnight so I'm not able to see whether he's straining . I will be vigilant in case it happens again.


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## Forester

Shortly after I posted last night we had a close call. This is extremely unusual in an evening as 95% of vomits come between 7am and 10am. I saw him crouch and then have one enormous stomach contraction. I quickly grabbed him and changed his position to allow gravity to assist. He gulped once and there were no further contractions. He's been fine this morning.

I've increased the choline to 100mg approx so he's now having:- pork + limestone flour + taurine +cod liver oil + 100mg choline bitartrate per day. He also has 4 drops of diluted apple cider vinegar per meal. Meds wise he's on 2mg prednisolone , 3.3mg cetirizine and 1 capsule Bioglan probiotic each day.

Since including the apple cider vinegar I've come to consider it as essential. It seems to have brought about a definite improvement in his comfort after eating.

We had poo again this morning ( sometimes it's daily sometimes every other day ) and there was no sign of blood. There was, however, an awful lot of hair.


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## carly87

Poor baby. Have you had his swallow tested? I know it's not the same, but I have something called oesophageal dysmotility, meaning that the muscles of my food pipe don't quite work the way they should. If I eat food in certain positions, i.e lying down, it all sticks in the top of me, and if I didn't do anything about it, I would bring it all back up. I need to eat sitting really straight up, and even then sometimes it's not enough and I have to pause for 5 minutes in the middle of a meal to let things move down. Are his feeding stations raised ones? Just wondering if you could raise them so he has to either eat on a level without bending, or, even better, must put his paws on some sore ot little step, i.e front paws so his body is extended at a downward angle, then have his feeding station i.e bowl abote that at mouth level, so the whole time he eats, his body is ina good position for gravity assisted drainage if you like. I doubt anything exists like this on the market, but OH is a designer, so if you wanted something, I could ask him to have a look for you. Not sure if he would charge/how much it would cost as it would be a one off, and he might be coaxed to just do it for a riend, especially as it would probably benefit cats with mega-oesophagus too, and if it helps, you might tell others about it and he may make a little that way (we are literally skint, so at the leasts you may have to cover material costs if nothing else), but I don't even know if this would help him. Just had the brain wave when you said the change of position helped him straight away. Poor little bunny. The universe really isn't fair to these little souls sometimes, is it!


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## Forester

Thank you @carly87 .It is extremely kind of you to suggest that D could make a feeding station for Dylan which might help him:, I do appreciate it. Unfortunately this idea has already been tried , without success.

Dylan's swallow has not been investigated but one of the many vets to have seen him once thought that he might have a problem with his oesophageal sphincter. This vet got me to feed with Dylan's bowl on a step system which placed his body in a vertical position. It made no difference to the vomiting at all. This vet had been under the ( false ) impression that food was not reaching his stomach and Dylan was regurgitating. Sadly he vomits, the action involves his whole body and the rhythmic muscle contractions can easily be seen.

I believe that Dylan's vomiting occurs due to poor GI motility arising from his inflammation and fibrosis. I *do *think that Dylan would vomit less if his body were to be kept vertical for 15 minutes after he eats, but IMO restricting him in such a way would be tantamount to cruelty. I could not do that. I satisfy myself by very gently repositioning him when I can see that he looks nauseous.

I have also considered liquefying his food in an attempt to ensure that it passes through his system more easily.

I agree, Carly . There doesn't seem to be any justice at all in the world . It breaks our hearts to see these sweet little souls suffer .:


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## carly87

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Please don't think any of my suggestions are silly, will you? I'm just wracking my brains for anything at all that might help.


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## Forester

carly87 said:


> Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Please don't think any of my suggestions are silly, will you? I'm just wracking my brains for anything at all that might help.


@carly87 ,Of course I don't think that any of your suggestions are silly. I *do *know that you are trying to help and I'm grateful, thank you 

I don't think that there is much that hasn't been tried with my lad. The vast number of vets who have seen Dylan, including two Specialists from Langford have exhausted their ideas.

This raw diet is proving to be the only thing , other than steroids, which has ever brought about any sustained improvement so I'm hopeful that, in time, we may get further progress. I do still have the idea of the poo pills

https://www.animalbiome.com/products/cat-gut-microbiome-restoration-system, in reserve but , I think, that I would like to see how far the raw diet can take him before trying this. I intend to discuss the poo pills with my vet when I next see him in person as I would like his views. It is my current belief that , in order to obtain maximum benefit from the poo pills, I need to get his gut in the best condition I can to allow the gut flora the best chance to colonise.

@Paddypaws , I *am *aware that the poo pills can be repeated as often as necessary however, with the cost ,once shipping and taxes are included, at a huge proportion of my meagre monthly pension I could not sustain this indefinitely. I never have and never will deny any animal any treatment on grounds of cost but I need to be sure that Dylan will reap the maximum benefit possible from it.

Dylan has been sick ( breakfast ) again, but hey ho, we clean up and carry on. Things are getting better and Dylan doesn't seem at all bothered about the situation.


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## Forester

@carly87 's recent post got me thinking. Although the erstwhile attempt at getting Dylan to eat in an almost standing position was a disaster I've just realised that Dylan's auto feeders, which I use for his overnight meals, raise his dishes off the floor by a couple of inches.As Dylan is almost never sick at night I'm going to have another go at raising his bowls. I now have his food bowl placed on a platform consisting of an old bread board laid on top of a copy of Yellow Pages. By having a temporary structure I will be able to adjust the height if it appears to make any difference.

Dylan was sick this morning making a total of 6 since the start of the month. As long as we end up with a single figure total for January I'll be relatively happy.

I've increased the choline a little more so we're now at approximately 125mg , 1/3 of our target dose. Progress may be slow but we are getting there . Last January's total was 12.


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## carly87

Oh, I do so hope I've been helpful in some way! Fingers very firmly crossed here.


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## Forester

Can I scream ? Yes , that feels better.

I had another " brainwave" last night. As Dylan is generally sick around breakfast time, would it help if I gave him breakfast at 6am in his auto feeder whilst I stayed in bed a little longer ? This would mimic the night time feeds when he is never sick ( though he used to be before I shut him out of the bedroom  ) .It didn't work. He was fine at 6am but puked at 10.00.:Banghead

I need to calm myself down . I'm getting really anxious about this again and I'm sure that it's having a detrimental effect on Dylan. 

I forgot to mention yesterday, just in case any other poor soul ever needs to use this for reference purposes, that I obtained some size 5 capsules to use for Dylan's cod liver oil. Size 5 holds 3 drops of clo but won't accommodate tablets as well.I'm now using 2 x size 4 and 1 size 5 capsules per day.

I have considered whether to drop the Choline back to 100mg for a few days to see whether it makes any difference but have decided to stick with 120mg for now.


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## Forester

carly87 said:


> Oh, I do so hope I've been helpful in some way! Fingers very firmly crossed here.


Thank you Carly. I'm going to keep Dylan's table in place for a while.

Incidentally, I remembered what happened with the step system which we tried in order to get Dylan to eat in an upright position. With the first prototype he managed to sit himself on the step next to the bowl, and with the second one he took the food out of the dish then ate it off the floor!!!!!!.

When I reported back to the vet who'd suggested the step system he said that it wouldn't have worked for vomiting anyway, only for regurgitation.


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## carly87

Whilst your vet may well be right, you have shown that repositioning can avoid the triggering of a vomiting episode... So if you can keep him more upright for longer whilst eating, surely that's not a bad thing I'd say?


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## Forester

carly87 said:


> Whilst your vet may well be right, you have shown that repositioning can avoid the triggering of a vomiting episode... So if you can keep him more upright for longer whilst eating, surely that's not a bad thing I'd say?


Unfortunately re positioning doesn't *avoid *triggering a vomit, but it can cause the procedure to abort .

The contractions leading up to a vomit can be disrupted, probably about 50% of the time, provided that re positioning occurs early enough in the process. To catch the nausea sessions early enough I have to watch Dylan extremely closely which isn't always a good idea. If he spots that he's being watched it makes him more anxious and also more likely to vomit.I feel that it causes more problems than it solves.

ETA Sometimes avoiding a vomit through re positioning just postpones it till the next meal time. With Dylan it often feels like " heads the IBD wins, tails I lose ".


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## Forester

. . . . on a brighter note. For the last three days I've been avoiding providing Dylan with a meal between 3am and his breakfast time. I've also provided breakfast in a much more leisurely manner. I haven't been rushing to feed as soon as I get up but have been waiting till 8am when I've given him approx 1/4 of his meal. The other 3/4 has been given half an hour later. Breakfast has been staying down. Whether this is just coincidence I have no idea but I'm going to keep going on this pattern until I get evidence that it doesn't make any difference.

We're up to 1/3 of the target dose for choline now. I plan to increase to 1/2 dose in the next few days.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Unfortunately re positioning doesn't *avoid *triggering a vomit, but it can cause the procedure to abort .
> 
> The contractions leading up to a vomit can be disrupted, probably about 50% of the time, provided that re positioning occurs early enough in the process. To catch the nausea sessions early enough I have to watch Dylan extremely closely which isn't always a good idea. If he spots that he's being watched it makes him more anxious and also more likely to vomit.I feel that it causes more problems than it solves.
> 
> ETA Sometimes avoiding a vomit through re positioning just postpones it till the next meal time. With Dylan it often feels like " heads the IBD wins, tails I lose ".


These are my experiences as well. Uncanny how parallel we are.



Forester said:


> . . . . on a brighter note. For the last three days I've been avoiding providing Dylan with a meal between 3am and his breakfast time. I've also provided breakfast in a much more leisurely manner. I haven't been rushing to feed as soon as I get up but have been waiting till 8am when I've given him approx 1/4 of his meal. The other 3/4 has been given half an hour later. Breakfast has been staying down. Whether this is just coincidence I have no idea but I'm going to keep going on this pattern until I get evidence that it doesn't make any difference.
> 
> We're up to 1/3 of the target dose for choline now. I plan to increase to 1/2 dose in the next few days.


Again...following a similar progression to ours! While I do believe the adjustments will be never ending for our cats, any positive move forward is a victory.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> These are my experiences as well. Uncanny how parallel we are.
> 
> Again...following a similar progression to ours! While I do believe the adjustments will be never ending for our cats, any positive move forward is a victory.


TBH knowing that you've had very similar experiences in the process of getting your cat to where you are now has been a major motivator for me. It has shown me that this *can *be done and with very positive results.I have no doubt that Mazy cat is now almost unrecognisable from the girl with whom you started your journey to raw.

I know that I've achieved a lot with Dylan already, yet I yearn to have him on a complete diet, to find at least one, if not more, other proteins that he can tolerate , and to get him off the steroids. I suppose that I will always want more yet am grateful for what we've achieved so far. *If *I can get Dylan to midnight tomorrow without further vomiting he will be on his second lowest monthly total since Jan 15 when I started counting. . . .if only I could get him off the steroids etc.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I expected trouble last night although luckily it didn't materialise. OH and I were supposed to have a rather nice dessert which was covered in whipped cream. OH got his, but whilst I mistakenly left mine unattended, Dylan helped himself to at least half of the cream . I suppose that I shouldn't have been surprised when he didn't request his next meal on time.

P S I ate the rest of the cream.


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## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> I expected trouble last night although luckily it didn't materialise. OH and I were supposed to have a rather nice dessert which was covered in whipped cream. OH got his, but whilst I mistakenly left mine unattended, Dylan helped himself to at least half of the cream . I suppose that I shouldn't have been surprised when he didn't request his next meal on time.
> 
> P S I ate the rest of the cream.


Cat that got the cream!!!! Clever boy Dylan


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> Cat that got the cream!!!! Clever boy Dylan


He definitely enjoyed it!!!!!.

I was worried that it might trigger a spate of vomiting but there don't appear to have been any repercussions.


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## Forester

We made it to the end of January without any more vomiting. Dylan's total for the month was 7. This means that , since coming off the JWB lamb his monthly totals, in order have been 14, 13, 8, 9, 10, 7. To say that I'm happy is an understatement.

I've made a few changes to the breakfast routine over the last few days. All of these changes have been tried in the past, without success but I've never tried them all together before.The changes I've made are:-

1) his bowl is raised so that the rim is about 4" off the floor. This applies to all meals , not just breakfast.

2) I'm making him fast for about 5 - 6 hours before I start feeding breakfast. This is a total change from our previous routine as, at one time, Dylan would *always *vomit if he went more than 3- 4 hours between meals. I'm assuming that whatever made him vomit after this length of time no longer applies. With Dylan, the situation constantly changes . What works one day/week/month won't necessarily work the next.

3) Breakfast is fed in 2 courses , 1/4 for his first course followed by the other 3/4 after a gap of 30 minutes.

I have no idea whether these latest changes have contributed to the recent good run, or whether the run would have happened regardless but, whilst it appears to be helping, I'm going to stick to it.

Food wise the Choline dose is now up to 50% of the target amount.We're getting there , slowly.


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## Forester

Dylan has managed another calendar week without vomiting. In fact his last vomit was on Friday 26th January so 10 days ago.

I should be ecstatic but I'm slightly concerned . Over the last 2 or 3 days he hasn't been eating well.This morning I even had to put FF on top of his breakfast to get him to eat it. He's also sleeping much more than usual although he's bright and playful in between. He doesn't appear to be nauseous but I think that he may have stomach ache.He's been on 50% of the target dose of choline for the last 4 days. I'm going to see whether dropping back to 33% makes any difference. Maybe my painfully slow increase is still too quick for him.

I also think that he's losing weight again. I know that he's reasonably well padded but I don't like to think that he might be losing. I must make an effort to weigh him tomorrow. I've increased the proportion of fat in his food in the hope of counteracting any weight loss.


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## Forester

Still no vomit but he's giving some cause for concern. He has lost weight- 200g since 26th Nov., and he's not eating anywhere near as much as he was. 

I've dropped the choline and the acv completely for a few days as the weight loss started just after the introduction of the acv. He hasn't been totally off colour recently , just sleeping a bit more than usual . 

Today he's brighter and eating a little better. He's also produced a massive poo, despite having produced his usual offering yesterday. Today's had masses of hair in but was also a bit dark on the outside. I'm wondering whether that's an indication of an internal problem or whether it's because most of the hair was on the outside and Dylan is black. I'm monitoring, and will rush him off to the vets if I think that there could be a problem. If I take him and request a blood test to check for an indication of internal bleeding it won't be the first time. It's been done before , when I've panicked, and everything has been fine. 

This diary may give the impression that having a cat with IBD is a constant worry. It is , but he pays me back for the worry 100 times every day. 

P S I think that 11 days without vomiting last happened years ago but I'm afraid to celebrate.


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## Paddypaws

Humans take ACV to help with weight loss, no idea whether it really does help or if this could explain the 200g loss. 
Fantastic to hear he is passing hair in his poop, mine often go off food when fighting a fur ball. I would say ‘try not to worry’ but know that’s not in the job description


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Humans take ACV to help with weight loss, no idea whether it really does help or if this could explain the 200g loss.
> Fantastic to hear he is passing hair in his poop, mine often go off food when fighting a fur ball. *I would say 'try not to worry' but know that's not in the job description *




It's a good job that I hadn't read the job description before I unhesitating said " I'll have him ". Only joking, The moment I laid eyes on him no one was going to take him away unless they killed me first . I agree that there is always worry with a sick cat, in fact any cat , It's just the level of worry which changes : however he's worth it, I've never regretted adopting him and never will.

Now that I've stopped the acv and choline he's eating well again. I've checked my records and the weight loss started just after I started him on the acv. It *did *instantly help with the discomfort he was experiencing at the time but I think that it has affected his appetite. It is only now that he's starting to eat better that I've realised how much his enthusiasm for food had slowly dwindled.

My level of worry has dropped back down again now that Dylan is eating better. He produced another small poop this morning, which contained some hair but looked much more " normal" than yesterdays. My current plan is to give him a couple more days of just meat + calcium carbonate + Taurine + cod liver oil before resuming the Choline at 0.2 of the target dose. There has been a noticeable increase in hair in Dylan's poop since starting the Choline though maybe it just corresponds with the shedding season.

If a Fairy were to arrive and offer to grant me wishes I think that I might ask for the ability to see hair inside a cat. It is a strange one I know , but it would be so useful to know whether there *is *any stuck anywhere.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> It's a good job that I hadn't read the job description before I unhesitating said " I'll have him ". Only joking, The moment I laid eyes on him no one was going to take him away unless they killed me first . I agree that there is always worry with a sick cat, in fact any cat , It's just the level of worry which changes : however he's worth it, I've never regretted adopting him and never will.
> 
> Now that I've stopped the acv and choline he's eating well again. I've checked my records and the weight loss started just after I started him on the acv. It *did *instantly help with the discomfort he was experiencing at the time but I think that it has affected his appetite. It is only now that he's starting to eat better that I've realised how much his enthusiasm for food had slowly dwindled.
> 
> My level of worry has dropped back down again now that Dylan is eating better. He produced another small poop this morning, which contained some hair but looked much more " normal" than yesterdays. My current plan is to give him a couple more days of just meat + calcium carbonate + Taurine + cod liver oil before resuming the Choline at 0.2 of the target dose. There has been a noticeable increase in hair in Dylan's poop since starting the Choline though maybe it just corresponds with the shedding season.
> 
> If a Fairy were to arrive and offer to grant me wishes I think that I might ask for the ability to see hair inside a cat. It is a strange one I know , but it would be so useful to know whether there *is *any stuck anywhere.


The choline increases motility, so I am not surprised you are seeing more fur being passed. Some cats don't need the ACV on a permanent or regular basis. It may be the course of ACV has jump started his system into producing the acid on it's own again and so he doesn't need it any more for the time being. You know you can use it, if you need it. So glad he is doing better!


----------



## lorilu

Hey @Forrester. I just realized it was only a little over a week ago that Dylan helped himself to a cream treat. There is every possibility that contributed to his discomfort and decrease in appetite.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> The choline increases motility, so I am not surprised you are seeing more fur being passed. Some cats don't need the ACV on a permanent or regular basis. It may be the course of ACV has jump started his system into producing the acid on it's own again and so he doesn't need it any more for the time being. You know you can use it, if you need it. So glad he is doing better!


Thank you. Yes, I do believe that the increase in hair going through is largely down to the addition of Choline.



lorilu said:


> Hey @Forrester. I just realized it was only a little over a week ago that Dylan helped himself to a cream treat. There is every possibility that contributed to his discomfort and decrease in appetite.


Having checked my records I'm pretty sure that Dylan's appetite started to decrease shortly after I started to introduce the acv. The reduced appetite has been going on for some time although has only become more obvious in recent days.I do plan to reintroduce the Choline in preference to acv. I'm using the argument that his body has a nutritional need for the choline .I don't know whether it is included in the AAFCO standards, but FEDIAF do include minimum levels for feline choline intake.As you say I can always give a dose or two of acv if I feel that he needs it.

Ha Ha , for the reminder of the Great Cream Theft.. He did turn his nose up at his following meal but was back on track come supper time that day.


----------



## Forester

Dylan last vomited 15 days ago.!!!!!!!

I really don't know what to think. He's eating about 120g per day, not quite as much as I'd like him to, but definitely better than he was last week. He appears to be his usual self. . . minus the vomiting. He's sleeping a bit more than usual but then he's fallen in love with a bed he received at Christmas. It reflects his body heat back to him and he thinks that it is the best thing ever to happen to him.

I'm going to weigh him again tomorrow and plan to start his Choline again on Monday.

A small part of me wants to sing from the rooftops however most of me is worrying what might happen next.


----------



## Forester

5.55kg ( slightly up from Monday ) as well as 16 days vomit free and counting ( definitely the longest he's gone since 2014 ).

Choline starts again tomorrow. I've realised that the black surface on the strange looking poo *was *hair, as we've had another similar one this morning.

This all seems too good to be true.:Nailbiting


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> 5.55kg ( slightly up from Monday ) as well as 16 days vomit free and counting ( definitely the longest he's gone since 2014 ).
> 
> Choline starts again tomorrow. I've realised that the black surface on the strange looking poo *was *hair, as we've had another similar one this morning.
> 
> This all seems too good to be true.:Nailbiting


Words cannot express my happiness! xxxxxxxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Words cannot express my happiness! xxxxxxxx


Thank you.


----------



## Pavonine

So happy for you and Dylan!!


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## Forester

Pavonine said:


> So happy for you and Dylan!!


Thank you .

Strangely, when Dylan's situation was looking bleak or when we had initial progress I tried to stay positive ;however now that everything seems to be slotting into place I find that I'm frightened in case it all goes belly up again.

I've started with 20% of a choline dose today and am pondering what to do once our target dose is reached. I want him off the steroids but, having failed with that recently, would I be better to try him with another protein ? I also have a terribly guilty feeling that , if I'd tried these recent management changes all together before , could we have achieved this progress months ago ? There again, I *have *tried these changes before and they made no difference then. It has to be the combination of the raw *and* the management changes which has helped.


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## Pavonine

Don’t be ridiculous! This is an incredibly complex situation and it’s 100% trial and error. You said yourself that things that didn’t work in the past are working now. You don’t know unless you try. Dylan is a very lucky boy to have you and your persistence and care for his wellbeing


----------



## Forester

Pavonine said:


> Don't be ridiculous! This is an incredibly complex situation and it's 100% trial and error. You said yourself that things that didn't work in the past are working now. You don't know unless you try. Dylan is a very lucky boy to have you and your persistence and care for his wellbeing


Thank you for your encouragement and kind words, @Pavonine.They mean such a lot. I can't believe that I feel so flat when Dylan has gone so long without being sick. If anyone had told me that we'd get this long a good spell I'd have imagined that I'd have been over the moon. Instead it feels like I'm in a dream and the alarm will go off any minute.

Thinking logically, with Dylan having 3 types of inflammation, I suppose that we've had to suppress all three types to get this far.

If this current amazing improvement continues I can't wait for my vet's reaction when I report back towards the end of this month .

I've always said that I will never give up trying to help Dylan. I'm all that he has.


----------



## lorilu

I know exactly how you feel dear friend. Both with the feelings of guilt and the feelings of worry over this wonderful long span. I've experienced these exact feelings, and still do often feel them. It's hard work, keeping positive on this type of journey. I hope with all my heart that this is where Dylan's experience veers away from the parallel he has been sharing with my girl..and he never looks back. xxxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I know exactly how you feel dear friend. Both with the feelings of guilt and the feelings of worry over this wonderful long span. I've experienced these exact feelings, and still do often feel them. It's hard work, keeping positive on this type of journey. I hope with all my heart that this is where Dylan's experience veers away from the parallel he has been sharing with my girl..and he never looks back. xxxx


Thank you. :Kiss Your kind words reduced me to tears. I am well aware that you do know exactly how I feel , having experienced the same over a number of years.

I'm telling myself that there's no point in looking back, only forwards. Dylan's good run is continuing. It is now 18 days, 5 hours, 25 minutes since he was last sick. The transition to raw seems to be bringing about an improvement beyond my wildest dreams.I worry that he might become intolerant of the pork but there are other proteins out there which we haven't tried. His gut is clearly in much better condition than it was when we started out last summer. I'm noticing that not only is Dylan not vomiting but he doesn't seem to be experiencing anywhere near as many nausea sessions as he used to and hair is coming out of the back end rather than the front one.

When I look at how far we've come I *do *feel a lot better.


----------



## Forester

Well, Dylan's amazing vomit free run could not go on forever. It ended this morning , just over 24 hours short of 3 weeks. 3 weeks!. When I started this diary I was used to Dylan having 3 days , or even less, between vomits. 

He's a bit reluctant to eat now , although a sprinkle of nutritional yeast on top of his pork has been enough to tempt him. Fingers crossed he will settle back into another good run fairly easily. 

I'd been over the moon with a vomit total of 7 in January, here's hoping that February's total, currently at 1, can show even more improvement.

When collecting Dylan's ultra fresh ( low histamine ) pork today I had a lengthy chat with my friendly butcher. Should Dylan be able to tolerate duck, something I want to try soon, this butcher would be able to supply me with ultra fresh, free range, duck whenever I want.


----------



## Forester

I've worked Dylan's choline bitartrate back to 30% of his target dose and appetite has dwindled drastically again. I've tasted the choline myself and I don't blame him at all- it's disgusting - very bitter.I have therefore thrown out today's food ( this is why I don't prepare a lot in advance ) and given him just meat plus calcium for his breakfast. It was inhaled.

I clearly have to find another way to give the choline. I'm already giving him 3 capsules per day with his cod liver oil plus pred. x 2 plus cetirizine so I'd like to avoid having to give more capsules if I can . I suspect, however, that inserting the choline into capsules may be the only way to get him to take it. Does anyone, @lorilu, @Paddypaws , anyone else  have any tips for decanting and refilling capsules, ?.

On the vomit front Dylan was sick again last Friday but has been O K since. February's total so far is 2.


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## Paddypaws

What do you mean by 'decanting and refilling capsules'? Does the choline come in one size and you want to put a smaller amount into a smaller capsule?
You can get capsule filling 'machines' but for small quantities I have utilised a straw snipped at an angle to create a scoop but not sure how you would accurately measure the precise doses you work with.


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> What do you mean by 'decanting and refilling capsules'? Does the choline come in one size and you want to put a smaller amount into a smaller capsule?
> You can get capsule filling 'machines' but for small quantities I have utilised a straw snipped at an angle to create a scoop but not sure how you would accurately measure the precise doses you work with.


I'm sorry, PP , I wasn't very clear,. . as usual .

The choline capsules are huge, size 00 or 000 , not quite sure which so there is an awful lot of powder to be transferred into smaller capsules.I need to use a whole choline capsule each day once we reach the target dose, which is going to mean several additional capsules added to Dylan's current tally. In the past I've tipped the contents of capsules onto foil which I've folded and then used the foil to act as a chute to channel the powder into the empty capsule. Sadly the choline capsules yield far too great a volume of powder to make that method practical .

I'm imagining that I might have to tip the choline powder into a ceramic container then use a mini measuring spoon as a scoop with which to fill the empty capsules. There are going to be a lot of capsules though. Grrr, why does it have to be so difficult?

Ha Ha, If I have to use measuring spoons to fill the capsules I can't see my doses being very precise! :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious

Oh well, it all keeps me from getting bored!!!!!!


----------



## Forester

It gets worse . 1 x 000 size capsule holds 1.37ml. If I was able to pack the choline as tightly as in the original capsule, which I doubt I would be able to, I'm going to have to use 5 x size 3 capsules to accommodate the choline. For size 4 capsules, which I'd prefer, I'd need 7.


----------



## lorilu

I don't have any advice of the top of my head. You can be sure I'll be thinking about it though. Wait..one idea...a compounding pharmacy? Have the choline dose made up into something palatable?


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I don't have any advice of the top of my head. You can be sure I'll be thinking about it though. Wait..one idea...a compounding pharmacy? Have the choline dose made up into something palatable?


Thanks @lorilu. I've just had a quick look online and it looks as though only vets or doctors are able to use these services in the UK. I'll ask my vet about the possibility when I update him next.

I have had another idea, _*if *_Dylan could take duck, then maybe I could give choline through using duck eggs. I know that @Paddypaws suggested this once before and I put it on the back burner. At the time I was so stressed after Dylan's reactions to chicken's eggs and egg yolk lecithin that I couldn't face the thought of trying him, and possibly having yet another reaction .Perhaps if I were to keep him on just a proportion of the choline requirement for a while, I could try to introduce duck and then duck eggs.

It's funny, I once read an article which stated that it could take up to a year to successfully transition a cat with IBD to a fully complete raw diet. I'm starting to wonder whether we'll manage it that quickly.


----------



## Forester

My mentor from the Raw for IBD forum has suggested that I try using size 0 capsules for Dylan's choline. They're absolutely huge but I'm going to give it a go. I'm also going to advance my plans for the introduction of duck / duck eggs as well as look out for quail eggs.


----------



## Paddypaws

oh wow, size 0? On the basis that once it's down it's done for the day? I guess it you get it down torpedo style it will work. Fingers crossed for the duck and quail eggs. x


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> oh wow, size 0? On the basis that once it's down it's done for the day? I guess it you get it down torpedo style it will work. Fingers crossed for the duck and quail eggs. x


Unfortunately it wouldn't be done for the day. Using size 0, I could get Dylan's cod liver oil and choline into 3 capsules, the same number that I'm giving at the moment. I've been told that my mentor uses this size capsule all the time and it is just a matter of confidence on my part ,and lubrication ( butter ) . I expressed my fear that I'd end up with a capsule in Dylan's lungs but I've been assured that the geometry is such that this wouldn't happen with pills, only liquids.

Duck and quail eggs are definitely going to be fast tracked now. Duck eggs I'm relatively sure that I should be able to get hold of, quail I suspect might prove more elusive.


----------



## Forester

Dylan's size 0 capsules arrived yesterday however I'm not going to use them . I don't doubt that I *could* use them but I'm not willing to give my lovely boy medication which is that size.

I *did *do a trial run with a Bioglan capsule on Tuesday. The Bioglan capsules are not as large as size 0 but are considerably larger than the size 3, 4, and 5 that I've been using up until now. Dylan did swallow the Bioglan but I can still see the momentary widening of his eyes as it went down. I'm not prepared to do that , and worse, on a regular basis. If I have to dose multiple capsules , multiple times a day, so be it.

At the moment I'm fitting approx 120mg choline ( 1/3 dose ) into 3 size 3 capsules along with Dylan's cod liver oil, pred. and cetirizine. I'll send for some size 2 capsules but don't think that it would be fair to Dylan to go larger than that. How can I expect my precious boy to swallow something that I would not be willing to take myself?

I've checked Dylan's weight again, 5.56kg so he seems stable again. His vomit total for Feb. so far is 3.


----------



## Forester

I'm trying to decide what to do, yet again, because Dylan has been sick on each of the last 2 days .February's total is now 5.

Is it just coincidence that he's vomiting more now that he's having the choline in capsules ? Is he having too much at once - he's now having approx 140mg split into 3 doses so approx 50mg at a time . When having 140mg a couple of weeks back he was only having 20mg at a time and that was accompanied by food.

Do I carry on and see what happens ( which might risk him getting worse )?. Do I try splitting the choline into smaller doses? Do I leave the choline off for a few days to see what happens? Do I abandon the choline capsules and try to find another way to feed choline, bearing in mind that Dylan is intolerant of , or unwilling to eat, liver and chickens eggs ?

Dylan, meanwhile, is blissfully sleeping with his legs in the air, completely oblivious to the anguish he generates.:Banghead :Cat

Any suggestions welcome.



P S I appear to have considerably reduced the breakfast time vomiting with my recent changes to his schedule. True to form for Dylan it is now lunch which gets vomited.


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## lorilu

Darn. It may simply be a case of February shedding amping up the fur load and slowing motility.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Darn. It may simply be a case of February shedding amping up the fur load and slowing motility.


Thanks for that @lorilu. You've just reminded me that today's offering contained a sultana sized clump of hair. I think that this is probably only about the second or third time he's vomited clumped hair since I ditched the wet food.

I really don't know what to do. I suppose I'm worrying that he having too much choline bitartrate at once because I've read that this can cause vomiting. I remember that when I started giving him the cod liver oil it took weeks for him to be able to tolerate more than 1 drop at a time. Perhaps giving 5 or 6 tiny doses would be a better idea.

Why does it all have to be so b**dy difficult to work out what is going on.


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## Forester

Urghh, he's just been sick again !!!

It has to be at least 6 months since he was last sick 3 times in 2 days. I think that I'll try dropping the choline completely for a few days. @lorilu , there *was *another " sultana" of hair but he honestly doesn't appear to be shedding any more than he was during his latest good run.

I wonder whether it is actually the high choline content that Dylan doesn't tolerate in eggs and liver ???????????????


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## Forester

Choline bitartrate fed in capsules clearly doesn't agree with Dylan. I don't think that the problem is necessarily the choline bitartrate itself: I think that it's because it has been fed in 3 doses rather than distributed throughout his food. It may also have been too much too soon ( remembering that it took me 7 weeks to get his cod liver oil to a recommended dose )

I stopped giving the choline laced capsules on Saturday evening. He made one attempt to vomit on Sunday morning, which was aborted when I re positioned him, but he clearly didn't feel well. He hasn't been sick since and is starting to look a little happier.

I've managed to buy quail eggs this morning. I'll probably wait a little longer before attempting to introduce them ,but they'll be my next attempted dietary addition. I don't intend to feed quail eggs to the level where they'd supply Dylan's entire choline requirement as that would require several eggs per day . I would like to use them as an additional protein which would partially supply the choline he needs. Please , please, please let him tolerate these!!!!


----------



## Forester

February produced a total of 6 vomits, all concentrated in a 10 day period. It was disappointing after our amazing start to the month but it is still Dylan's lowest monthly total in years .I am satisfied that he's continuing to progress.

Once again he's illustrated that he's much better when I'm not changing anything, however whilst his diet is still incomplete and he's only eating one protein, I have to keep challenging him with new ingredients.

Dylan's quail eggs are still in their packaging. I need to pluck up courage to try giving him just a little, however it is hard to do so when I know that it risks another flare. I still haven't decided how to feed the eggs, raw or cooked, boiled or beaten up with a little water to create an emulsion. I will start with just the tiniest amount of egg, even though a complete egg is only about 1/5 the size of a chicken egg.

I'm aware that it is widely advised that egg white should not be fed raw as it contains avadin which binds to biotin and prevents its utilisation.I have however also read that there is more than sufficient biotin in egg yolks to compensate for this. Cooking egg whites is also advised to reduce the salmonella risk however quail eggs do not carry salmonella to the extent that chickens eggs do. I'm leaning towards boiling the eggs anyway but am open to persuasion if someone can give me a reason to feed them raw.

Dylan's diet currently consists of pork shoulder plus sufficient calcium carbonate to balance, plus taurine, plus cod liver oil . Med wise he's still on 2mg pred., 3.3mg cetirizine , and i Bioglan capsule each day.

He looks amazing, and seems extremely happy. He appears to have recovered from the choline experience.


----------



## lorilu

Boiling the egg will make it easy to cut little slivers off the solid yolk. Boiled or raw, the amount will be the same, you would have to dry the yolks to reduce the portion. There are instructions for that in the files, I think on the FFL website rather than IBD (On the IBD site it links to the FFL page).

Thing is, boiled, I think the yolk wil last longer in the fridge, or at least that's always been my reasoning. For my girl who gets 1/4 yolk a day, I boil hers. The other two get 1/2 raw yolk each, once a week, and they love it.

I don't feed them whites, raw or cooked. I eat the whites myself (cooked)

I am just thinking out loud here, not trying to sway you one way or another.


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## SbanR

Boiled yolks will freeze. I used to do that for Jessie before I started giving it to her raw


----------



## Forester

Please accept my apologies for missing your replies @lorilu and @SbanR ,I've spent 2 days digging through a snowdrift to make a way to the road.

I did opt to boil the first quail egg. I figured that it would keep better this way. I know that quail eggs are tiny but I started Dylan with 1/6 egg ( white and yolk ) divided between his meals yesterday and the same quantity again today. With the first couple of meals he tried to leave the egg but he's eating it happily now. I'm feeding the white as well as the yolk as I'd quite like him to have a different protein. The quail eggs are so small ( approx 1/5 the size of a chicken's egg ) that I'm aiming to work up to 1 per day, so long as he tolerates them.

If OK with quail eggs I plan to try duck eggs too.

Dylan was last sick on Sat 24th Feb. If he gets to midnight tonight we'll have had another vomit free calendar week.


----------



## Forester

Dylan managed the vomit free calendar week. That's 4 this year already, probably more than during the last 4 years put together. No one could deny that he's a different cat to the one who started this transition last June. Of course it could all be down to the cetirizine he's been taking since May 17 but I know what my money would be on.- the raw diet!

He's vomited this morning but I had a feeling that it would come soon. Yesterday evening he had a nausea session which OH spotted, then counteracted with reassurance and gentle strokes.

He's had 3 days of having 1/6 quail egg split between his meals and I moved onto 1/4 egg today. I had planned to give 1/4 egg for 6 days but, in view of this morning's " event" I will observe closely ( as if I don't always ) then revert to 1/6 if I deem it necessary.


----------



## Forester

Dylan's just been sick for the second time this week. I know that 2 vomits used to signify a " good" week however these days he's generally better than that , unless I'm trying to add something new ( which I am! ) . I think that I'm going to try dropping the quail egg ( 1/4 per day ) for a week to see what happens.

I *know *that I have to advance this transition , however I've started to wonder whether it might be more beneficial for Dylan to leave everything the same for a while. This might allow his inflammation to settle more, rather than being repeatedly aggravated .

His diet does now contain the most essential elements.

ETA I plan to ask for advice from my raw feeding mentor.


----------



## Paddypaws

@Forester I don't always comment on your updates but I do always read them and applaud your incredible devotion to the black panther.


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## oliviarussian

Paddypaws said:


> @Forester I don't always comment on your updates but I do always read them and applaud your incredible devotion to the black panther.


I second that!


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> @Forester I don't always comment on your updates but I do always read them and applaud your incredible devotion to the black panther.





oliviarussian said:


> I second that!


Thank you both . I've never yet had an animal that I didn't do everything I could for them. I don't know how anyone could , and still sleep at night. I took Dylan on with a promise to love and cherish him. I can't let him down ,and I won't let him down.


----------



## Forester

Dylan hasn't been sick since I stopped feeding the quail egg.

Advice from my mentor(s) on the Raw for IBD Fb group is mixed. They don't know whether Dylan 's gut would be less sensitive if allowed a period without changes and they aren't sure whether his current diet is sufficiently complete for him to continue as he is without further additions.

It seems that I *do *appear to have the most sensitive cat on the planet. :Banghead

I have, however received suggestions. I'm going to try Dylan with choline in yet another form - Phosphatydil Choline. I'm also going to try a new " balancer" produced by Purrform.https://www.purrform.co.uk/product/purrform-complete-supplement-50g/

If both of those fail I will have to think again. I feel a bit between a rock and a hard place. I *have *to find a way to get this diet complete, I really can't see that going back to a complete wet diet ( *none *of which have ever been tolerated ) can be anything but a backward step. :Arghh


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Dylan hasn't been sick since I stopped feeding the quail egg.
> 
> Advice from my mentor(s) on the Raw for IBD Fb group is mixed. They don't know whether Dylan 's gut would be less sensitive if allowed a period without changes and they aren't sure whether his current diet is sufficiently complete for him to continue as he is without further additions.
> 
> It seems that I *do *appear to have the most sensitive cat on the planet. :Banghead
> 
> I have, however received suggestions. I'm going to try Dylan with choline in yet another form - Phosphatydil Choline. I'm also going to try a new " balancer" produced by Purrform.https://www.purrform.co.uk/product/purrform-complete-supplement-50g/
> 
> If both of those fail I will have to think again. I feel a bit between a rock and a hard place. I *have *to find a way to get this diet complete, I really can't see that going back to a complete wet diet ( *none *of which have ever been tolerated ) can be anything but a backward step. :Arghh


're the Purrform supplement, @stockwellcat Posted about it in the thread 'cat food'


----------



## lorilu

Nothing to add, just listening.....xxx


----------



## Paddypaws

Remember you still have the poo pills to consider......


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## Forester

SbanR said:


> 're the Purrform supplement, @stockwellcat Posted about it in the thread 'cat food'


Thank you @SbanR. I've PM'ed @stockwellcat. re this.


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Remember you still have the poo pills to consider......


I haven't forgotten these. I have loads of details printed out ready to take to Dylan's next check up which is due April/ May.I would like to hear my vet's opinion. I have heard of one very bad adverse reaction although most reports seem positive.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Forester said:


> Thank you @SbanR. I've PM'ed @stockwellcat. re this.


I have replied to your pm.


----------



## Forester

stockwellcat. said:


> I have replied to your pm.


Thank you, have just messaged you back.


----------



## Forester

Thanks to @stockwellcat. 's kindness and generosity we have a pot of the Purrform complete supplement. I've already started trying to introduce it. I've mixed the appropriate quantity of supplement with just 20g meat to start with and am adding just the tiniest amount to each meal. I've been doing this for just over 24 hours. So far so good.I intend to follow my usual method of introduction - increasing the proportion of Purrformed meat very, very slowly.

I haven't studied the vit/ min values in the Purrform mix closely but intend to so . I plan to compare them with the FDIAF and AAFCO standards. I have noticed that the PurrForm supplement doesn't declare any choline at all. It could be that they don't declare everything on the pot but I will enquire from them.

The phosphatydil choline is still in transit from the USA.

Dylan was sick once earlier this week. That's 3 in March so far. He's maintaining his much improved record.

ETA I sent an enquiry re dietary deficiencies to the nutritionists at Burns pet foods as they claim to answer individual nutritional enquiries. I haven't had a reply.


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## lorilu

Is Dylan stil handling he addition of Purrform? xx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Is Dylan stil handling he addition of Purrform? xx


Call me cautious but he's only having approx 1g - 1.5g Purrformed meat mixed in with 18.5g of his usual mix at the moment. I had intended to increase the proportion of Purrform tomorrow but I'm hesitating. He hasn't been sick since I included the Purrform but he has looked nauseous. I'm remembering how long it took him to get used to the cod liver oil. It was several weeks before he could cope with more than one drop at a time however we *did *get there eventually. I'm hoping that he will start to look more comfortable and then I will feel more confident about increasing .

I'm looking at things this way. 5-7% of his requirement of some nutrients is more than he's had for 7 months.

I have been searching on the Raw for Fb Group page for conversations that I once had with a member who had a cat almost as sensitive as Dylan. Unfortunately that member left the group and her messages aren't available any more. Her cat was on an extremely limited diet pretty similar to Dylan's . She'd been transitioning for 17 months . She did tell me that she consulted a nutritionist somewhere in the US and that the nutritionist was unconcerned about what was missing from the diet. Obviously that only provides a very small element of reassurance. I will be so much happier when Dylan's diet becomes fully complete however I don't want to move too quickly and risk causing a flare. We've come too far to risk messing things up.

ETA I've just ordered myself a 2nd hand copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition. not the latest edition though. That should give me enough bedtime reading for a while.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I had intended to increase the proportion of Purrform tomorrow but I'm hesitating.


I would advise you to wait. Two days is a very short time. I wouldn't advise you to try an increase for at least a full week. Then a whole week at the next increase and so on. Two or three days is too quick.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I would advise you to wait. Two days is a very short time. I wouldn't advise you to try an increase for at least a full week. Then a whole week at the next increase and so on. Two or three days is too quick.


I should have been clearer. I *have *decided to wait till he looks more comfortable after eating. When I do increase I'm only going to 2.5g PurrForm /17.5g my current mix. I aim to keep increments small.

ETA I started the Purrform on Thursday .


----------



## Forester

PurrForm have just confirmed to me, in writing, that their " Complete Supplement" *does not* contain any choline. None was mentioned in their list of additives and as neither eggs or liver were mentioned in the ingredients ( Just as well as Dylan doesn't tolerate these )I felt the need to enquire . I had wondered whether the inclusion of Rapeseed Oil might provide choline but it seems not. I'm waiting for advice from my mentor as to whether I need to add choline as well as the Purrform Supplement .

How can PurrForm claim that this supplement turns plain meat into a complete food?.

@lorilu I'm not going to try adding anything else yet. I've adjusted his Purrformed meat to exactly 5% of his diet for now . He gets 1g PurrFormed meat to 19g of my old mix.

Dylan was sick this morning. There were 2 grape sized wads of hair.


----------



## Forester

After Tuesday morning's " offering" I reduced Dylan's PurrFormed meat to 1g per meal, measured precisely on my small weight scales. Since making this reduction he hasn't been sick. I plan to give him a couple more days at this level then increase to 2g per meal , which will be 10% of his food.

March's vomit total so far stands at 5.

I haven't done anything more about introducing any choline as I like to make just one change at a time.

My copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition arrived during the week. It is fascinating, all 1200 pages of it. Some I can't understand but there is much that I can. I was aware that one of the editors was employed by Hills but I was quite shocked when I looked at the back cover of the book. Here's a photo as well as one of the reason for this thread.



















ETA The cardboard on the floor is because he loves chewing cardboard, NOT because he hasn't been fed!


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## stockwellcat.

Forester said:


> After Tuesday morning's " offering" I reduced Dylan's PurrFormed meat to 1g per meal, measured precisely on my small weight scales. Since making this reduction he hasn't been sick. I plan to give him a couple more days at this level then increase to 2g per meal , which will be 10% of his food.
> 
> March's vomit total so far stands at 5.
> 
> I haven't done anything more about introducing any choline as I like to make just one change at a time.
> 
> My copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition arrived during the week. It is fascinating, all 1200 pages of it. Some I can't understand but there is much that I can. I was aware that one of the editors was employed by Hills but I was quite shocked when I looked at the back cover of the book. Here's a photo as well as one of the reason for this thread.
> 
> View attachment 349430
> 
> 
> View attachment 349431
> 
> 
> ETA The cardboard on the floor is because he loves chewing cardboard, NOT because he hasn't been fed!


I have just started reading this ebook (which cost me £4.50) on Amazon Kindle (which i downloaded for free on my mobile phone) and so far I am enjoying the read (Natural Nutrition For Cats: The Path To Purr-fect Health).








The book is by someone Kymythy Schultze (this is her website): http://www.kymythy.com/biopage.html

I also have various pdf books on cat/feline nutrition I am also reading through at the moment.

Is the Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition worth buying for a read even though one of the editors is employed by Hills (I have seen how pricey the 5th Edition is on Amazon)?


----------



## Forester

Thank you @stockwellcat. I _almost _bought that Kymythy Schultze book myself before deciding to get the Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition.

SACN is more of a reference to dip in and out of than an actual "read". As I only paid £8.52 for it plus postage I felt that I had nothing to lose. My copy is second hand but looks untouched other than having a previous owner's name on the flyleaf. My interest is more in individual nutrients and in the use of different diets for different medical conditions hence my choice. The Hills link doesn't bother me . I haven't seen any mention of their diets yet.

I do also have https://www.amazon.co.uk/Feline-Nutrition-Optimum-Health-Longevity/dp/1461057337 but find it insufficiently detailed for my purposes.

Another book that I have which might interest you is https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultimate-P...097&sr=1-1&keywords=Richter+gary+the+ultimate . This book contains many recipes for both cooked and raw diets for both dogs and cats though the diets with one exception are all high carb.

If you wanted to borrow the Curtis book you would be very welcome. I'm afraid that I'm currently using the Richter one.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Forester said:


> Thank you @stockwellcat. I _almost _bought that Kymythy Schultze book myself before deciding to get the Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition.
> 
> SACN is more of a reference to dip in and out of than an actual "read". As I only paid £8.52 for it plus postage I felt that I had nothing to lose. My copy is second hand but looks untouched other than having a previous owner's name on the flyleaf. My interest is more in individual nutrients and in the use of different diets for different medical conditions hence my choice. The Hills link doesn't bother me . I haven't seen any mention of their diets yet.
> 
> I do also have https://www.amazon.co.uk/Feline-Nutrition-Optimum-Health-Longevity/dp/1461057337 but find it insufficiently detailed for my purposes.
> 
> Another book that I have which might interest you is https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultimate-P...097&sr=1-1&keywords=Richter+gary+the+ultimate . This book contains many recipes for both cooked and raw diets for both dogs and cats though the diets with one exception are all high carb.
> 
> If you wanted to borrow the Curtis book you would be very welcome. I'm afraid that I'm currently using the Richter one.


I have Lynn Curtis's Book Feline Nutrition: Nutrition for the Optimum Health and Longevity of your cat.







Thank you for the offer to borrow your copy though 

I will take a look at the other book you mentioned above from amazon. I am always interested how differing peoples and organisations opinions are on the topic of feline nutrition.


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## Forester

I'm going to keep Dylan's PurrFormed meat to 1g per meal for a little longer. He was sick yesterday morning and looked somewhat nauseous earlier today. Much as I desperately want him to have the extra nutrients I really wouldn't feel comfortable putting his digestive system under any more stress.

Such is life


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## stockwellcat.

Forester said:


> I'm going to keep Dylan's PurrFormed meat to 1g per meal for a little longer. He was sick yesterday morning and looked somewhat nauseous earlier today. Much as I desperately want him to have the extra nutrients I really wouldn't feel comfortable putting his digestive system under any more stress.
> 
> Such is life


You're doing the right thing. Transition should be done slowly and at your cats pace. Perhaps keeping him on what he is on for a while longer may help his stomach settle.

Sorry but I don't know much about IBD so really cannot offer any advice on this.


----------



## Forester

Thank you for your support @stockwellcat. It is now almost 8 months since Dylan's diet was complete and this worries me ( probably rather more than I like to admit ). However how can I feed him something which he doesn't cope with? Prior to starting this transition last May Dylan had been deteriorating for 4 years. He only started to improve when I took him off the commercial food.

If Dylan could tolerate organs life would be so much easier, but he can't.

I've discussed our current situation with the Founder's of the Raw for IBD Fb group ( the producers of EZcomplete ) and it seems that Dylan and I are pretty much in uncharted territory. They don't know of another cat who is quite as intolerant as Dylan. When I suggested a period of no changes at all ( to help his system settle) opinion was divided as to whether it was likely to make any difference. I do need proper nutritional advice and will discuss this with my vet next month.

The raw diet has taken Dylan from vomiting 14 times per month to just 6 and from 4.55kg and losing to 5.55kg and stable.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Forester said:


> It is now almost 8 months since Dylan's diet was complete and this worries me ( probably rather more than I like to admit ). However how can I feed him something which he doesn't cope with? Prior to starting this transition last May Dylan had been deteriorating for 4 years. He only started to improve when I took him off the commercial food.
> 
> If Dylan could tolerate organs life would be so much easier, but he can't.
> 
> I've discussed our current situation with the Founder's of the Raw for IBD Fb group ( the producers of EZcomplete ) and it seems that Dylan and I are pretty much in uncharted territory. They don't know of another cat who is quite as intolerant as Dylan. When I suggested a period of no changes at all ( to help his system settle) opinion was divided as to whether it was likely to make any difference. I do need proper nutritional advice and will discuss this with my vet next month.
> 
> The raw diet has taken Dylan from vomiting 14 times per month to just 6 and from 4.55kg and losing to 5.55kg and stable.


So sorry to read this @Forester.

Has there been a complete wet food or a complete raw food diet (minced commercial one without any vitamins added because they use the 80% meat 10% bone 5% liver 5% offal formula instead) that has agreed with him? If so would it be worth revisiting this? Would you say Dylan is coping better on a raw diet? Has the vet given any helpful advice and guidance with treating Dylan's IBD?

I am sorry but my advice is very limited.


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## Forester

stockwellcat. said:


> So sorry to read this @Forester.
> 
> Has there been a complete wet food or a complete raw food diet (minced commercial one without any vitamins added because they use the 80% meat 10% bone 5% liver 5% offal formula instead) that has agreed with him? If so would it be worth revisiting this? Would you say Dylan is coping better on a raw diet? Has the vet given any helpful advice and guidance with treating Dylan's IBD?
> 
> I am sorry but my advice is very limited.


Thank you @stockwellcat. for your input. Unfortunately , in the five years since Dylan "landed " I haven't managed to identify a single complete food, wet, dry or raw which he tolerates. Early in 2014 he went 23 days without being sick on Royal Canin Sensitivity Control chicken pouches but tolerance rapidly declined . He will now vomit as soon as he's given this . There are very few commercial foods which we haven't tried.

Dylan *is *coping much better with the raw pork than he has with anything else that he's had before, hence the plan to gradually build him a diet which he can tolerate, one element at a time. I'm concerned about how long this is taking but I honestly can't see any alternative. Dylan has been subjected to every treatment that my vets have suggested as well as a vet from another practice and two specialists from Langford. IMHO Langford have the best feline internal medicine specialists in the country and they have tried all that they can. They describe Dylan as an extremely complicated, confusing and challenging case.

This raw diet is the only thing to have helped Dylan , at all, other than steroids, which sadly he's still on.

I *know *that this is the way to go with him. It is just so frustrating that , at the moment his diet isn't giving him all of the nutrients which he should have . He's brighter and seems happier than he's ever been . He also looks absolutely fabulous . We're due to see my vet next month so I will enquire whether he can put me in touch with a feline nutritionist.


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## Forester

Dylan got through March with a total of 6 vomits - the same as February and less than half of last March's total.

I increased his Purrformed meat to 1.2g per meal on Saturday and 1.4g on Sunday. Today I've gone to 1.5g ( didn't have the courage to go to 2g ) and plan to keep him at this level for a week.


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## Forester

I've increased Dylan's meat with Purrform Supplement added to 2g per meal today. That's still only 10% of his total food officially complete though the other 90% does have " the essentials".

I've booked an appointment with my vet for this Wednesday for Dyl's annual health and dental check and plan to discuss both the state of his diet, and the AnimalBiome " poo pills "https://www.animalbiome.com/collections/microbiome/products/cat-gut-microbiome-restoration-system pills".
I've been in contact with AnimalBiome for more details . I've been told that the pills have been producing an improvement in approx. 80% of cats who vomit. My inclination is to try this once I get Dylan's diet fully complete but I will see what my vet thinks.

Vomit wise April's total currently stands at 1, or rather that's the official total. There was one more but it was totally different to Dylan's usual variety so has been discounted.

Note. I have seen the cost of the poo pills but this is Dylan and he gets what he needs. AnimalBiome do sell the pills without the analysis of your pets poo but , if I do it, I'll do the lot, well the first time anyway.


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## Forester

Dylan was given a glowing report at his vet appointment today. My vet could hardly believe the improvement since this time last year. 

I expressed my concern about the inadequacies of the current diet but was told not to worry. It seems that I've achieved improvement the vet thought impossible. I was told that " cats like him don't usually improve ".

My vet seemed more concerned that I might overdose Vit A than about the nutrients which are missing at the moment. I was able to reassure him that I'm dropping the cod liver oil dose as I increase the Purrform. I mentioned that I've felt that I need qualified nutritional advice but , as I'm improving the diet as soon as Dylan tolerates it we've agreed that I'm doing all that I can.

I did agree to Dylan having a wormer in view of his meat being fed raw. He's had a Milbemax tablet today.

My vet was quite sceptical about the poo pills. In his opinion I'd need to give them all of the time to achieve any lasting improvement . He thought that I'd be better placed using " standard" probiotics. He also thought that there was a risk that the pills could undo all of our hard earned progress, which, in his opinion, would be a terrible shame.

I did receive a reply from AnimalBiome to a question I posed about the optimum time for using the poo pills. I was told that the best results are achieved when the cat is a good weight and when there are no nutritional deficiencies.

I'm going to forget the poo pills for now.

I almost forgot to mention that Dylan was sick this morning. It was the second this month. He'd had less of an overnight fast that usual and the vomit contained a large quantity of hair. We are still on track for a 6 vomit month, hopefully. . .


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## lorilu

My biggest concern regarding the poo pills, from my own girl's perspective, is what the donors were fed. She is just that sensitive to anything GMO, and any grain at all, that I just can't risk the kind of setback she might have on something like that, something that I have no control over.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> My biggest concern regarding the poo pills, from my own girl's perspective, is what the donors were fed. She is just that sensitive to anything GMO, and any grain at all, that I just can't risk the kind of setback she might have on something like that, something that I have no control over.


You make a very good point there @lorilu, and something which , I confess, hadn't occurred to me. I'd be absolutely devastated if I undid all the good work which has been achieved through the raw diet.

You are much further along in this process with your girl than I am with Dylan and I consider myself extremely lucky to be able to benefit from your experience. I am well aware that we wouldn't be where we are now but for you. I will be eternally grateful for your advice.

Incidentally, I left the appointment yesterday with a tube of chlorhexidine gel as Dylan has a small build up of tartar on his back teeth however I don't think I have the courage to use it for fear of causing problems. I've been rubbing Dylan's teeth and gums with my finger but it doesn't seem to have made any difference.

------

By the way, I can't seem to stop admiring my handsome little chap and feeling proud that we've made progress, seemingly against the odds.


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## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> By the way, I can't seem to stop admiring my handsome little chap and feeling proud that we've made progress, seemingly against the odds.


Well done Sylv .... you deserve to feel proud, look how far you've brought him!


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> Well done Sylv .... you deserve to feel proud, look how far you've brought him!


Thank you , I'm blushing.

I've come to think that Dylan and I were destined to link up. He's been good for me too. With him needing 24 hour attention I've had a beneficial distraction from my other " caring responsibilities ".


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## carly87

Sylv, can you choose your doner? Could a cat on here donate for example? Mine are all raw fed, and only on rabbit or turkey at the moment if that's any good?


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## Forester

carly87 said:


> Sylv, can you choose your doner? Could a cat on here donate for example? Mine are all raw fed, and only on rabbit or turkey at the moment if that's any good?


Oh @carly87 that's so sweet of you. I feel quite emotional.:Kiss I can't imagine that it would be feasible for a cat in the UK to donate. I can't see how poo which might be top quality when it is produced would survive the journey to the US in the same condition. It was a lovely thought though and I'm very grateful to you. 

Details of the poo pills and how they are produced are here.

https://www.animalbiome.com/pages/fecal-microbiota-transplant-capsules-aka-poo-pills.

I hope that you are able to read it.

Incidentally Dylan doesn't tolerate raw rabbit and I'm very doubtful whether he'd tolerate raw turkey either. He can't take it cooked. The only protein I've found him to cope with is the ultra fresh pork which comes from a local farm.

In view of my vet's concerns I'm shelving the idea of the poo pills for now. I'm going to concentrate on getting Dylan's diet complete and seeing how far the raw can take us.

_ _ _ _ _ _

Dylan will never let me rest on my laurels. He's now reluctant to eat .His appetite had been dwindling for a few days and he's been attempting to cover his bowl. He's also been seeking out the pork which is not " contaminated" with the Purrform supplement. I omitted the supplement from last night's meals and he ate better, however today he's not eating well again. For today I've given some PF supplement in capsules but I don't know whether I could give a full ration that way.

Maybe the Milbemax tablet has affected his appetite??????

I'm now looking at making the vitamin supplement from a Raw for IBD recipe, just adapting it slightly because Dylan isn't having heart or liver. Getting this diet complete feels like a game of chess with Dylan playing against me however *I will win. . . .*if it's the last thing I do!


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## lorilu

Last time it was fur clogging him up when he went off his food, remember? However yes the de-worming may have something to do with it. : (


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Last time it was fur clogging him up when he went off his food, remember? However yes the de-worming may have something to do with it. : (


I'm pretty sure that it was the Purrform supplement affecting his appetite this time. He wasn't eating well for a couple of days _before_ going to the vet and having the Milbemax. Luckily the hearty appetite has returned today ( I've given his PF in capsules ).

I'm going to continue to increase the PF whilst giving it in capsules for now .


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## Forester

Dylan has just thrown a curve ball into the mix however it is one that I'm quite excited about.

Do you remember the liver saga? I initially tried Dylan with a meat mixture containing raw pigs liver - he vomited badly. I tried freeze dried chicken liver- he vomited badly. I tried cooked pigs liver - he refused to eat it. I then sent for freeze dried pigs liver which took weeks to arrive. Whilst waiting for the FD pigs liver I started using cod liver oil as I really couldn't leave him without Vit A any longer. I built up the cod liver oil to the required level and stashed the FD pigs liver in the cupboard. Dylan has been getting his Vit A from cod liver oil ever since.

This evening I reorganised one of Dylan's supplement cupboards. As I lifted the lid of the freeze dried pigs liver to check it Dylan rushed excitedly into the kitchen. I broke off the tiniest piece of liver and offered it to him. It was demolished .and he wanted more although I wouldn't let him. This tub of liver is in date till December 18 and, as liver contains loads of Vit A, B vits, Vit C, iron, zinc, manganese, copper and choline, it would make a huge difference to the completeness of his diet if he could tolerate it. . . . .and I wouldn't have to worry about him not liking the Purrform supplement. 

I know that it is a change in direction but, I think that I'm going to hold the Purrform Supplement at 10% of Dylan's requirement and have a go at very, very, very slowly trying to introduce freeze dried pigs liver.


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## Forester

After sleeping on it I don't know what to do. Maybe trying the FD pigs liver would be too much change in a short spell of time, even if it was only a microscopic amount. My thoughts may, of course , be influenced by the fact that Dylan has just puked on the carpet then promptly pooed in his tray. This is in addition to his small overnight poo. Both of the latest offerings contained easily discernible tufts of hair and I would imagine are a result of the liver. The poo was softer than usual, though I consider this a good thing.

Advice requested from those not emotionally involved @Paddypaws , @lorilu. What would *you *do? I so wish that I hadn't been born a Pisces.

I do have to take into account that the PF supplement , if given in capsules, will involve giving 6 size 4 capsules per day . There again Dylan clearly loved the liver and it will be £43 worth going to waste if I don't try it. Not that the money is important, Dylan's health is all that really matters.

With today's increase to Dylan's monthly vomit count April's total stands at 3, on course for another 6 vomit month should nothing else change.


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## Forester

My heart has overruled my head. It looks as though I'm giving the FD pork liver a go.

IMO *if *he can take it I'll be able to get much closer to what his diet ought to be.On each of the last two evenings he's had 1/20th of the amount I'd give to provide 5% liver . Feeding only 1 organ he'd ideally need 10% of his diet as liver but I'm aiming small for now.


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## carly87

NEver 10%. Vit A is fat soluble, meaning it's very easy to overdose on it. You must absolutely not feed 10% otherwise you risk vit A toxicity.


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## lorilu

Liver as the sole organ at 10% is a safe amount for a cat.


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## Forester

Recipes from the Raw for IBD Group , as well as from Feline Nutrition go to, or pretty close to 10% liver *if no other organ is fed. *

https://feline-nutrition.org/html_pages/Recipe_Calculator.html

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Balanced Recipe with Analysis.pdf?token=AWwq6TL7440rHJOrDvrvA5Za7OEhZoSs3o9zXfVHILB-Up7Awah4h2cojHZAOdDLdE-7Lcw0PoSfPzmUakhRBg7k8FeRK36NSMuUQoxzc0aTxXlrDUiHaEpX8hFsVTeWSEv9tvTuYRJXXHztRcgz19AU0mGYrpuhI2BT_oP_abDT6w

The Raw for IBD recipe includes a nutritional analysis in line with AAFCO and FEDIAF standards.

Liver is problematic for many , many cats with IBD so I have no plans to make it much more than 5% of his diet. TBH I have grave doubts as to whether we'll manage that 5%

Dylan has reminded me that there is absolutely no point in making too many plans regarding the makeup of his diet. He was sick yesterday evening shortly after having his sliver of FD liver. He would also have been sick this morning had I not re positioned him. That makes 2 and a half  vomits after 3 tiny pieces of liver. April is always Dylan's worst month, probably due to peak shedding,( yesterday evening's vomit contained more hair than he's ever produced at one time before), however I'm going to follow the procedure recommended in the Raw for IBD group. I'm going to back off and slow down .

I'm not giving any liver at all until the start of next week to let his system settle. I'm then going to try again but with half of the current daily quantity _and I'm going to divide his liver between his meals _instead of letting him have one piece as a treat.

*

*


----------



## Forester

The last week has been awful by Dylan's recent standards, 3 vomits , 1 close call and numerous spells of obvious discomfort/ nausea. I know that , at one time , this wouldn't have been particularly unusual but I've found it absolutely devastating. Added to the aforementioned, my lovely boy is now eating only reluctantly during the daytime. Midweek I shed sufficient tears to float a battleship.

I *know *that the nausea and vomiting is improving and that we'll get through this but it's hard, bl**dy hard!!!!.

In the light of the above I honestly can't bring myself to retry Dylan with FDPL just at the moment, I'd rather chop off my hands and feet, maybe some time in the future. Instead I'm intending to try increasing the proportion of Purrform Supplement in line with previous plans. @carly87 I will be reducing Dylan's cod liver oil in accordance.

Dylan meanwhile, apart from eating much less than he used to , couldn't give a jot.I am grateful for that.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> The last week has been awful by Dylan's recent standards, 3 vomits , 1 close call and numerous spells of obvious discomfort/ nausea. I know that , at one time , this wouldn't have been particularly unusual but I've found it absolutely devastating. Added to the aforementioned, my lovely boy is now eating only reluctantly during the daytime. Midweek I shed sufficient tears to float a battleship.
> 
> I *know *that the nausea and vomiting is improving and that we'll get through this but it's hard, bl**dy hard!!!!.
> 
> In the light of the above I honestly can't bring myself to retry Dylan with FDPL just at the moment, I'd rather chop off my hands and feet, maybe some time in the future. Instead I'm intending to try increasing the proportion of Purrform Supplement in line with previous plans. @carly87 I will be reducing Dylan's cod liver oil in accordance.
> 
> Dylan meanwhile, apart from eating much less than he used to , couldn't give a jot.I am grateful for that.


Do you think it could be a combination of this heat n hairball from moulting? Maybe it's me clutching at straws to account for the vomiting


----------



## chillminx

I am so sorry to hear of the latest developments with Dylan. It sounds enormously stressful and I sympathise a lot. 

I think you're being very courageous the way you're coping. Shedding copious tears can feel pretty desolate but it can also be cathartic and help one to find renewed strength. 

Sending healing thoughts to dear Dylan, and hugs to you. xx


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Do you think it could be a combination of this heat n hairball from moulting? Maybe it's me clutching at straws to account for the vomiting


Thank you for providing me with a straw to clutch SbanR . I confess that it's something at which I'm already accomplished. I've had a lot of practise at that ,and at making excuses.

I *do *think that Dylan's rate of moulting has contributed to the bad spell. However he's been moulting heavily for several weeks and the bad spell did come on *very *suddenly and straight after I gave the freeze dried liver.

I suspect that the current problem with our transition is my emotional state as much as anything. I feel that I need to go with the option which I feel is least likely to give me a kick in the face.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Thank you for providing me with a straw to clutch SbanR . I confess that it's something at which I'm already accomplished. I've had a lot of practise at that ,and at making excuses.
> 
> I *do *think that Dylan's rate of moulting has contributed to the bad spell. However he's been moulting heavily for several weeks and the bad spell did come on *very *suddenly and straight after I gave the freeze dried liver.
> 
> I suspect that the current problem with our transition is my emotional state as much as anything. I feel that I need to go with the option which I feel is least likely to give me a kick in the face.


Look into taking some homeopathic or Bach Remedies yourself. It will help Dylan too if you're calmer in your mind. ( years ago I was stressed out over a very poorly cat. Didn't realise it, but it caused my darling LB to seriously overgroom. Tom eventually died, my stress went, LB stopped his overgrooming. Simplified version)


----------



## Forester

chillminx said:


> I am so sorry to hear of the latest developments with Dylan. It sounds enormously stressful and I sympathise a lot.
> 
> I think you're being very courageous the way you're coping. Shedding copious tears can feel pretty desolate but it can also be cathartic and help one to find renewed strength.
> 
> Sending healing thoughts to dear Dylan, and hugs to you. xx


Thank you @chillminx. You wouldn't have called me courageous if you'd seen me on Thursday when I unexpectedly found vomit in Dylan's run. For the first time since I adopted him I had to get away from the situation. I shut him indoors then proceeded to paint every item of wooden garden structure in sight. . through the tears , till I could cry no more. I've never, ever left him after he's been sick before. I have always dropped what I'm doing in order to comfort him. I felt dreadful but I had to try to forget, not that it worked.

I do recognise that this is just a minor setback which felt like a mountain at the time. We will soon get back on track and I will always do my best for Dylan. I am motivated by my vet's amazement and obvious pleasure at Dylan's progress. If it can be done I will do it!!!!!

- - - - -

Thank you all for your support. I could not do this without you all.:Kiss xx


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Look into taking some homeopathic or Bach Remedies yourself. It will help Dylan too if you're calmer in your mind. ( years ago I was stressed out over a very poorly cat. Didn't realise it, but it caused my darling LB to seriously overgroom. Tom eventually died, my stress went, LB stopped his overgrooming. Simplified version)


Oh SbanR I'm so sorry to hear about your loss of Tom and how it affected both yourself and LB. We tend to forget how a situation can impact others .

Years ago I did buy some Rescue Remedy for Dylan as he was clearly picking up on my stress. He refused to take it, so I drank it myself!!!!. It *did *help. I think that perhaps I should invest in some more.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Oh SbanR I'm so sorry to hear about your loss of Tom and how it affected both yourself and LB. We tend to forget how a situation can impact others .
> 
> Years ago I did buy some Rescue Remedy for Dylan as he was clearly picking up on my stress. He refused to take it, so I drank it myself!!!!. It *did *help. I think that perhaps I should invest in some more.


RR is useful n will help but I would also look at adding some more specific remedies for a more targeted approach. A book such as this will help you select the appropriate remedies, or you could consult a bach therapist


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> RR is useful n will help but I would also look at adding some more specific remedies for a more targeted approach. A book such as this will help you select the appropriate remedies, or you could consult a bach therapist
> View attachment 352422


Thank you


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Thank you for providing me with a straw to clutch SbanR . I confess that it's something at which I'm already accomplished. I've had a lot of practise at that ,and at making excuses.
> 
> I *do *think that Dylan's rate of moulting has contributed to the bad spell*. However he's been moulting heavily for several weeks* and the bad spell did come on *very *suddenly and straight after I gave the freeze dried liver.
> 
> I suspect that the current problem with our transition is my emotional state as much as anything. I feel that I need to go with the option which I feel is least likely to give me a kick in the face.


Several weeks of moulting can cause a huge build up inside, which will very suddenly begin to have consequences.

I am not dismissing the possibility that the FD liver is part of the problem, we already know how sensitive he is. But with our cats, we can never forget that motility is a huge issue, and when the shedding is heavy, the consequences are going to be too.

I understand both the need to break down and cry (as you know I do it myself, and very recently) and the desire to castigate oneself for it, but like chillminx said, crying can be a healthy outlet. We have to let those feelings out, so we can carry on.

xxxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Several weeks of moulting can cause a huge build up inside, which will very suddenly begin to have consequences.
> 
> I am not dismissing the possibility that the FD liver is part of the problem, we already know how sensitive he is. But with our cats, we can never forget that motility is a huge issue, and when the shedding is heavy, the consequences are going to be too.
> 
> I understand both the need to break down and cry (as you know I do it myself, and very recently) and the desire to castigate oneself for it, but like chillminx said, crying can be a healthy outlet. We have to let those feelings out, so we can carry on.
> 
> xxxxx


Thank you for your perspective on Dylan's situation @lorilu. I know that you are correct, as you usually are. After all, you've endured the same with your girl, and still do, every. . single. . .day.

As usual I haven't expressed myself well. I appreciate that the recent "issues" are likely to be a combination of heavy shedding and a too rapid introduction of the FDPL . My decision to go with an increase in Purrform over a reintroduction of FDPL lies with my own inability to cope with another setback so quickly. Dylan is so sensitive, appearing to be more so than any other cat currently discussed in the Raw for IBD group, that I feel that the odds on success are greater with the Purrform Supplement than with the FDPL. I'm aware that some cats with IBD don't tolerate liver at all, even freeze dried ,so trying to introduce it at this stage may be asking too much of Dylan anyway.

I'm also aware that poor appetite can be a result of dietary deficiencies, Vit B12, Vit d , and iron come to mind immediately. Dylan has been without some nutrients at required levels for so long that I want to get these added as soon as I can.

I think that it was my own reaction to being upset which made me feel even worse. This is the only time that I've ever felt the need to be away from him for a couple of hours. Whatever has happened to my sensitive caring side ? I was shocked and ashamed of myself. I would normally be comforting and reassuring him after a vomit but I had to distance myself from him for a couple of hours.:Sorry :Sorry :Sorry That's not like me.


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## SbanR

Forester said:


> Thank you for your perspective on Dylan's situation @lorilu. I know that you are correct, as you usually are. After all, you've endured the same with your girl, and still do, every. . single. . .day.
> 
> As usual I haven't expressed myself well. I appreciate that the recent "issues" are likely to be a combination of heavy shedding and a too rapid introduction of the FDPL . My decision to go with an increase in Purrform over a reintroduction of FDPL lies with my own inability to cope with another setback so quickly. Dylan is so sensitive, appearing to be more so than any other cat currently discussed in the Raw for IBD group, that I feel that the odds on success are greater with the Purrform Supplement than with the FDPL. I'm aware that some cats with IBD don't tolerate liver at all, even freeze dried ,so trying to introduce it at this stage may be asking too much of Dylan anyway.
> 
> I'm also aware that poor appetite can be a result of dietary deficiencies, Vit B12, Vit d , and iron come to mind immediately. Dylan has been without some nutrients at required levels for so long that I want to get these added as soon as I can.
> 
> I think that it was my own reaction to being upset which made me feel even worse. This is the only time that I've ever felt the need to be away from him for a couple of hours. Whatever has happened to my sensitive caring side ? I was shocked and ashamed of myself. I would normally be comforting and reassuring him after a vomit but I had to distance myself from him for a couple of hours.:Sorry :Sorry :Sorry That's not like me.


Carers also need caring time for themselves. Trite but true


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## Forester

SbanR said:


> Carers also need caring time for themselves. Trite but true


I still feel bad. When you love any being you do so every moment of every day.

Not that I cared any less for him during those couple of hours but I feel almost guilty of abandonment. I knew that it was only a temporary need to distance myself from the situation but I'm shocked that it happened.

Anyway, I'm ready for battle again. I suppose that ingested hair may well be the cause of Dylan's current inappetence but I need to find a way around it.


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## lorilu

{{{hug}}}


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## SuboJvR

Forester said:


> Thank you for your perspective on Dylan's situation @lorilu. I know that you are correct, as you usually are. After all, you've endured the same with your girl, and still do, every. . single. . .day.
> 
> As usual I haven't expressed myself well. I appreciate that the recent "issues" are likely to be a combination of heavy shedding and a too rapid introduction of the FDPL . My decision to go with an increase in Purrform over a reintroduction of FDPL lies with my own inability to cope with another setback so quickly. Dylan is so sensitive, appearing to be more so than any other cat currently discussed in the Raw for IBD group, that I feel that the odds on success are greater with the Purrform Supplement than with the FDPL. I'm aware that some cats with IBD don't tolerate liver at all, even freeze dried ,so trying to introduce it at this stage may be asking too much of Dylan anyway.
> 
> I'm also aware that poor appetite can be a result of dietary deficiencies, Vit B12, Vit d , and iron come to mind immediately. Dylan has been without some nutrients at required levels for so long that I want to get these added as soon as I can.
> 
> I think that it was my own reaction to being upset which made me feel even worse. This is the only time that I've ever felt the need to be away from him for a couple of hours. Whatever has happened to my sensitive caring side ? I was shocked and ashamed of myself. I would normally be comforting and reassuring him after a vomit but I had to distance myself from him for a couple of hours.:Sorry :Sorry :Sorry That's not like me.


Your sensitive caring side is WHY you needed time to yourself. For a few reasons...

- firstly, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be upset for him. You're not upset that you have a cat that is being sick, you're upset that your most loved pet wasn't well and you want to do everything you can to help.

- sometimes we all need a little space to get back "into it". You need time to recharge so that you can have the energy you need to take such good care of him!

- a little space also helps with a little objectivity. You are weighing up some decisions and it may be that some alone time helps with the clarity to make those choices. These choices are all about Dylan, so don't be hard on yourself - you are doing such a fantastic job with him.


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## SbanR

SuboJvR said:


> Your sensitive caring side is WHY you needed time to yourself. For a few reasons...
> 
> - firstly, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be upset for him. You're not upset that you have a cat that is being sick, you're upset that your most loved pet wasn't well and you want to do everything you can to help.
> 
> - sometimes we all need a little space to get back "into it". You need time to recharge so that you can have the energy you need to take such good care of him!
> 
> - a little space also helps with a little objectivity. You are weighing up some decisions and it may be that some alone time helps with the clarity to make those choices. These choices are all about Dylan, so don't be hard on yourself - you are doing such a fantastic job with him.


Expressed so much better than I ever could


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## Forester

SuboJvR said:


> Your sensitive caring side is WHY you needed time to yourself. For a few reasons...
> 
> - firstly, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be upset for him. You're not upset that you have a cat that is being sick, you're upset that your most loved pet wasn't well and you want to do everything you can to help.
> 
> - sometimes we all need a little space to get back "into it". You need time to recharge so that you can have the energy you need to take such good care of him!
> 
> - a little space also helps with a little objectivity. You are weighing up some decisions and it may be that some alone time helps with the clarity to make those choices. These choices are all about Dylan, so don't be hard on yourself - you are doing such a fantastic job with him.





SbanR said:


> Expressed so much better than I ever could


I honestly don't know what to say, other than " Thank you both "

I know that I'd have crumbled long ago without the support I receive from you all.

________________

I've resorted to sprinkling Fortiflora on Dylan's food and he's eaten a little, then cuddled up next to me , kneading me and looking a picture of contentment. As @lorilu says " he doesn't know that he's ill".


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## Forester

Another day and a new outlook. I've realised how lucky I am. Last night I saw a sad report of a kitten diagnosed with IBD at 6 months. He's passed over the bridge at 2 and 1/2. How heartbreaking for his slave.

I do have many reasons to be cheerful. Dylan was vomiting at 6 months though wasn't diagnosed till much later. He will be 6 in September. There have been many times when I never thought that he's still be here now. 

Dylan was sick again this morning, however 6 months ago I'd have been happy with this month's rate of vomiting. It's better than he managed for the majority of last year. His diet too , is better than it's been since last July.

Dylan isn't eating well during the day but is much better at night. I'm guessing that whilst he's not feeling too good he doesn't want to eat unless he's alone.

I almost forgot - I upped his Purrform supplement to 15% of his requirement this morning.


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## SuboJvR

Is it possible that the weather is playing a part in his activity/eating as well? I think here of the lions who laze around all day and only come out to hunt when the sun is gone and the weather is cooler.


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## Forester

SuboJvR said:


> Is it possible that the weather is playing a part in his activity/eating as well? I think here of the lions who laze around all day and only come out to hunt when the sun is gone and the weather is cooler.


I suppose that it is possible although I think it unlikely. Dylan has always preferred eating at night although would eat during the day.

I am a bit concerned about his dwindling appetite although when weighed at the vets a couple of weeks ago he was maintaining his weight. When first on raw he was eating 160 - 180g per day ( he did put on weight rapidly ). These days he's eating about 120g although for the last week it has only been about 100g. I can increase his cetirizine dose to 5mg , which is what it is really meant to be, which will increase his appetite .Unfortunately ,at 5mg he will sit by his dish all day asking for food and then vomit as soon as he has too much in his system. Nothing is ever simple with Dylan .


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## carly87

RR is great stuff. I use it when my kittens go, and it stops me from having a complete breakdown! Well, it doesn't, but it helps!


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## Forester

Dylan's appetite has improved, probably because I've been giving him 5mg cetirizine for the last few days , however that is the dose that he's really meant to have. He's also looking much more comfortable and hasn't been sick since Monday morning. It looks to me as though the " blip" was caused by the FDPL. I will try it again , at a later date, but for now I'm concentrating on increasing the Purrform supplement. He's having 15% of requirement at the moment. Barring a downturn , I will move to 20% next week.


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## Forester

Disregarding _*my *_mid month mini meltdown  , April has been another good month. I'm amazed that Dylan's vomit total for the month was 6 , yet again, and that includes those triggered by the freeze dried pigs liver. I wonder what we might have achieved had I not tried to give Dylan the FDPL. . . . . .

I know that a couple of you may be thinking that the FDPL didn't cause enough vomiting to have definitely caused the " flare". Increased shedding could well have been involved, however I _know _Dylan and his demeanour. That was triggered by the liver.

To put April's performance into context, his return rate of 6 this month ( with steroids )compares with 12 last April ( on steroids ) , 20 for April '16 ( no steroids ), and 18 for April '15 ( no steroids ). I know that I seem obsessed by figures but it's the only way that I can compare how he's doing .

A very pleasing side effect of Dylan's decreased vomiting is an increasingly noticeable change in character. He's still my sweet, loving boy who craves physical contact but he's also becoming more confident and relaxed. In the past I suppose that even he expected himself to vomit each time he ate.

Oh, food wise I'm now giving 20% of the target dose of Purrform supplement and am hoping to move to 25% next week.

I had been concerned that Dylan's appetite seems to be dwindling however I weighed him on Monday and his weight had actually increased slightly to 5.68kg. You see why I have to rely on figures. One of my college lecturers didn't give me the nickname of " The Prophet of Doom " for no reason.

I would like to try to introduce another protein soon ( duck ) just in case Dylan goes off pork. Suddenly refusing to eat unless the food is changed is something he has done numerous times in the past. I believe that it's common with cats who vomit as they seem to blame their food for making them feel ill.

Apologies for the ramblings.


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## Paddypaws

Never apologise for Dylan updates, no matter how long! You know you both have an army of supporters following his amazing progress.
I KNOW you know Dylan inside out and all his behaviours, but I still think you have to pass at least a little blame for the vomit total to the hairball epidemic of 2018. I have never in all my years seen so many hairballs as I have this past few weeks. ( not to mention the sicky puddles which catch me out by camouflaging themselves on my wooden floor so I walk in them barefoot, urgh)


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Never apologise for Dylan updates, no matter how long! You know you both have an army of supporters following his amazing progress.
> I KNOW you know Dylan inside out and all his behaviours, but I still think you have to pass at least a little blame for the vomit total to the hairball epidemic of 2018. I have never in all my years seen so many hairballs as I have this past few weeks. ( not to mention the sicky puddles which catch me out by camouflaging themselves on my wooden floor so I walk in them barefoot, urgh)


Thank you @Paddypaws . Methinks that you exaggerate a little however I have to agree that the support I've received regarding Dylan makes me feel that I *do *have an army on my side.

I think that my timing regarding the impromptu FDPL trial was unfortunate. I do realise that it coincided with increased production of hairballs nationwide. If only the sun hadn't inspired the cupboard spring clean; added to which I just couldn't disappoint the adorable face looking up at me expectantly when I lifted the lid off the liver.I *have *learnt from that experience. I gave far too much as an initial dose, both Dylan and I wanted it to work out so much.

I hate to say this but ,giving that first piece ( of FDPL ) was like flicking a switch in my boy. He loved it but within only a few hours was looking uncomfortable after eating. The hair shedding didn't start that quickly. He's still shedding a lot but hasn't been sick , touch wood, since Mon 23/4. Once I stopped the FDPL improvement came gradually over about 10 days.

I *will *keep trying Dylan with FDPL but will pick cooler weather and a much smaller initial dose the next time. The tub of FDPL will not last forever however I've discovered that I can buy smaller tubs through iherb. I know that if I can get Dylan to tolerate some liver his diet will be so much better.

I do sympathise with you over stepping in puddles of " rejected food/ body fluids/ hairballs". Never ever ,under any circumstances ,put your feet anywhere that your eyes haven't first scanned is the mantra of this household. The only time that Dylan has caught me out was the night that I cleared up a pile of vomit from under the bed at 2am, only to find when I went to get back into bed that he'd left another pile on the bottom sheet where I sleep! I confess to scraping it up, and then sleeping on the other side of the bed.


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## Pepperpots

I love hearing about Dylan. If he tolerates duck, I recommend the duck gizzards from Paleo Ridge. Nice chewy taurine bombs.


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## Matrod

Don’t apologise, I’m always interested in his progress even if I don’t comment much. It’s incredible what your doing for this gorgeous boy & when I read the amount of times he used to vomit to now I think it’s such an achievement  

I too sympathise with stepping in puddles, I can’t tell you how many times I did this first thing in the morning with Matilda, there were also occasions in the night if she puked on my bed where I’d just cover it with something & go back to sleep


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## oliviarussian

I’m part of Dylan’s army


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> I love hearing about Dylan. If he tolerates duck, I recommend the duck gizzards from Paleo Ridge. Nice chewy taurine bombs.





Matrod said:


> Don't apologise, I'm always interested in his progress even if I don't comment much. It's incredible what your doing for this gorgeous boy & when I read the amount of times he used to vomit to now I think it's such an achievement
> 
> I too sympathise with stepping in puddles, I can't tell you how many times I did this first thing in the morning with Matilda, there were also occasions in the night if she puked on my bed where I'd just cover it with something & go back to sleep





oliviarussian said:


> I'm part of Dylan's army


Thank you all, I do worry that I'm boring people but hope that one day this thread might possibly inspire someone else with a challenging IBD case to try transitioning to raw.

@Pepperpots . My freezer does still contain the two duck breasts which I bought around Christmas time. The failure with rabbit put me off trying another protein for a while but I'm almost up for it again. It is good to know about the gizzards.

@Matrod. I hope that this illustrates that perseverance pays off. In the beginning I kept going partly because I believed that a raw diet had to be the best ( most natural ) option for Dylan and partly because we'd tried all the options suggested by the vets- there was nothing left to try. Now I look at Dylan and can recognise the transformation that's come about as a result of these dietary changes. Its almost like winning the lottery.

You did everything you could for Matilda, and do so for Rodney,so please don't put yourself down.

Ahh @oliviarussian. We know that you're fighting with us. Sometimes a Secret Santa lasts forever !


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## Forester

Fractionally off topic however I've just read something which I hope might motivate someone else to try a raw diet with a cat with IBD. I cannot verify the details as I read them on a Fb group but I have no reason to doubt that it is an accurate representation of the truth.

Cat with presumed IBD taking 5mg prednisolone twice daily for an entire year to control symptoms  . I don't know whether said cat was a vomiter, had dire rear, or suffered from both.
Owner transitioned the cat to an entirely raw diet. Prednisolone dosage has gradually been reduced and cat is now on 1mg every other day. I don't know how long that pred reduction has taken but WOW!!!!!!. What an improvement.

ETA I've conversed with the owner of the cat mentioned above. She says that the reduction from 5 mg twice daily to 1mg every other day took. ... . about 6 months. 

I've rekindled my hopes of being able to wean Dylan off pred. one day.


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## Forester

Dylan is officially on the 11th day since his last vomit however this morning I made an unfortunate discovery - under the sideboard. My record has been amended.

Never mind, onwards and upwards.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan is officially on the 11th day since his last vomit however this morning I made an unfortunate discovery - under the sideboard. My record has been amended.
> 
> Never mind, onwards and upwards.


I've had that happen too. xx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I've had that happen too. xx


Oh No, It's horrible isn't it. You feel as though you should have been there for them . I'm guessing that Dylan's probably happened overnight as I rarely take my eyes off him during the 10 - 15 minutes " danger time" after he's eaten. I do hope that your girl is now through her bad spell. Do you attribute it to heavy shedding? I hope that you're not feeling too down. You've worked an absolute miracle with her. Life stinks when your reward for caring for her with such devotion is a regular kick in the teeth.

I don't know _when_ Dylan's episode happened, although I do usually look under the sideboard, as well as behind the sofa, chairs etc first thing every morning. I've been able to put the unexpected find behind me. It only bothered me when I actually found it.

We do seem to having a good spell right now. The above incident was Dylan's only vomit during the last 2 weeks - and we're up to 25% Purrform. I'm not 100% confident that the Purrform supplement contains everything Dylan needs, in fact I know that it doesn't  but it does mean that he's getting some nutrients which were missing previously. The only problem - I'm struggling to fit everything into 2 size 3 capsules each day. I will have to move on to 3.


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## lorilu

Usually by the time I find it it's dried up and I dont know when it happened. Yes she's done with the drawn out spell. It 's just part of her usual pattern when she goes 10 or more days between vomits. Each time she goes that long I hope that the extended days of vomiting won't happen but they always do.

The shedding here is massive. All of them. Usually by this time of year it's slowed down some but with winter lasting right through April 30, I guess their bodies are confused. xx


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## Forester

Dylan was sick twice yesterday, the second vomit consisting of mainly matted hair. I'm hoping , probably against the odds, that he's cleared out his current hair supply. OH thinks that I should brush him more often however I'm reluctant to do so. I have a nasty feeling that it actually leads to more hair getting ingested because I can't possibly remove every hair that I've loosened. Sometimes it feel like heads you win, tails I lose.

I'm not downhearted though ( well maybe just a tad ) because I know that we're continuing to move in the right direction. My vet's recent endorsement of everything that I'm doing and his clear pleasure at seeing Dylan as he is now, has given me more confidence in my own judgement over what is best for Dylan. His lack of concern over deficiencies in Dylan's diet has made me much more relaxed about that aspect of my boy's care.

Dylan has not been eating as well as he used to for some time, and he's showing less and less enthusiasm for his food as time goes on. Other than my brief attempts at introducing rabbit and quail eggs Dylan has been on pork only for 9 months . That does worry me. I think that he's bored with the pork. I would also be in serious trouble if he were to develop a sensitivity to pork. I have therefore decided to hold the level of Purrformed meat at the current level of 25% for a while and give introducing duck a go. I plan to start on Monday with just one tiny piece per day. I'm hoping that any luck which I'm due for this current year could appear right now .


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I plan to start on Monday with just one tiny piece per day.


How about one tiny piece, every other day, or even every 3rd day, to start. Slow slow slow.....


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> How about one tiny piece, every other day, or even every 3rd day, to start. Slow slow slow.....


That's an excellent idea @lorilu. I may try that. 

Dylan has barely eaten so far today . I've had to use a liberal sprinkling of Fortiflora just to get him to approach the dish. I suppose that he might still feel a bit rough after yesterday but his appetite is definitely waning.

Thank goodness that he doesn't have an issue with Fortiflora, despite him not tolerating any commercial foods. There again I do use a *very *small quantity at a time.


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## Forester

Dylan hasn't been sick for a week.

Unfortunately he isn't eating well either . This has been going on for some time although his weight remains stable at 5.66kg.  Do I take it this means that he's getting enough? Might his digestion be more efficient than in the past? The eating is much worse during the daytime then picks up overnight.

I've held the ratio of Purrformed meat at 25% . The other 75% being " my" mix ( meat plus calcium plus taurine plus cod liver oil ) .I've given a tiny morsel of duck on 2 occasions , 3 days apart. My plan is to give one more piece tomorrow then move to one every other day.

I'm also thinking of adding a phage prebiotic to the regime. The theory is that this would both help to eliminate the " bad" bacteria in Dylan's gut, and would feed the good bacteria. Hopefully it would also help to allow his own gut bacteria to re colonise, something I believe to be necessary for long lasting intestinal healing. I haven't been able to find a phage prebiotic available in the UK so will need to source from the US. This isn't a problem. I've had to do this for many of the supplements I've tried.


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## Forester

Not a lot is happening at the moment. I'm holding Dylan's PurrFormed meat at 25% of his diet and trying to very, very, very slowly introduce a little duck breast. For this week we're on one tiny piece, and I do mean tiny, every other day.

Dylan still isn't eating well despite me increasing his cetirizine to 5mg per day, which is the dose that he's meant to have . I've discovered that he eats pork shoulder with a little more enthusiasm than pork loin. Unfortunately my order of "shoulder" which I picked up this afternoon is actually loin and I didn't have time to get back to the butchers to change it.

I've realised that I'm suffering from having raised my expectations. I used to be happy if Dylan went 2 days without vomiting , and ecstatic if he went 4 days. Nowadays I find that I feel down whenever he's sick more than once in a week.

I've decided to hang fire regarding the phage prebiotic. Lets get closer to a fully complete diet with more than one protein ( if possible ) first. Too much change would only make things more confusing added to which I think that I need to do more reading regarding bacteriophages before I start Dylan on one.

ETA He's been sick twice since my last report.


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## lorilu

We're struggling here too @Forester. She brought up her lunch today with her medication, and a big wad of fur. 5 days since the last episode. xxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> We're struggling here too @Forester. She brought up her lunch today with her medication, and a big wad of fur. 5 days since the last episode. xxx


Oh noooo. Poor Mazy cat and poor you. I wish that I could send something more effective than just virtual ((( hugs ))). Are you experiencing warmer weather and heavy moulting too?

You get hit with a double whammy when they vomit their medication. That's happened with Dylan's last two vomits too. Not only are they sick but they're missing out on something which should be helping. Do you re medicate? I don't because I'm never sure how much will have already been absorbed. One of Dylan's vomits appears to have been triggered by his capsule which was size 2 instead of the more usual size 3. The larger capsule just couldn't get through.

xx


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Do you re medicate?


I don't, but it's easy to see it hasn't been absorbed at all. The pill is still completely intact. I don't because I want her tummy to have a chance to settle. She just misses her Denosyl for that day.


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## Forester

Dylan has been sick 3 times in the last 4 days , and also has some pretty foul smelling wind ( sorry  ),so I've decided to withdraw duck from the menu for the time being.

I know, I know. If I was advising someone else I would say " back up and slow down" however I don't think that it's possible to go any slower. I've taken 2 and a half weeks to build up to giving just slightly less than 1/2 gram of duck breast every other day. I may be jumping to conclusions too soon but I don't want to continue with this right now. We need progress towards having a complete diet rather than another setback. As of Monday I'll start increasing the meat with PurrForm supplement again. 

I'm pretty sure that Dylan is fed up with pork . He came rushing into the kitchen when I prepared a chicken, showing far more enthusiasm than he does for his pork but I can't give him something which is going to make him worse.

I may be imagining it but Dylan's coat doesn't seem as soft and shiny as it was a few weeks ago. 

Never mind, I'm sure that we're in a far better position than we were 12 months ago.


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## lorilu

Darn I'm so sorry! If we could only come up with a topper he likes and could tolerate, to change the smell of his meal now and then. My cats get so many supplements, every meal must seem different to them even if they did have the same protein all the time. My IBD girl is 75% chicken and 25% turkey, but she never seems to get bored. Of course the meat sources vary, as does the texture and half the chicken portion is EZc, and even half that is plain. The other two get more variety.

How about varying the texture per meal? Or feeding one meal a day poached (with the liquid of course)?


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## Pepperpots

So tricky. I wouldn’t worry about the amount he’s eating if he’s not losing weight. Could just be the hot weather.

It’s hard to know what protein to suggest. The more novel ones like kangaroo/zebra can only really be bought online in bulk, which isn’t much use for you. Maybe something like a guinea fowl breast from the supermarket?

Mine seem to be doing ok on the Purrform supplement. It hasn’t made them throw up, which is a good start! It’s a shame it’s not water soluble as it’s a bit gritty. If you minced a little bit of pork, could you mix it with that and a bit of water, rather than pilling?

Wishing you all,the luck on the world and am so sorry about the duck.


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## Pepperpots

Regarding brushing - I’d recommend investing in a cheap version of a furminator. That way you can have a good long session and remove all the dead hair.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Darn I'm so sorry! If we could only come up with a topper he likes and could tolerate, to change the smell of his meal now and then. My cats get so many supplements, every meal must seem different to them even if they did have the same protein all the time. My IBD girl is 75% chicken and 25% turkey, but she never seems to get bored. Of course the meat sources vary, as does the texture and half the chicken portion is EZc, and even half that is plain. The other two get more variety.
> 
> How about varying the texture per meal? Or feeding one meal a day poached (with the liquid of course)?


Thank you @lorilu ,though it's nothing for you , or @Pepperpots to be sorry about. It's just my Special Boy :Kiss. He does enjoy, and seem to tolerate both Fortiflora and nutritional yeast though I try only to use them when I'm desperate for him to eat. I don't blame him if he's fed up with pork after having little else , and always the same cuts, for 10 months. He's always had a tendency to suddenly refuse to eat unless the food is changed to something else. I've been told that this is common with cats who vomit.

Dylan seems less enthusiastic about pork loin than he is with shoulder, which is his usual cut. I've been giving 75% shoulder with calcium carbonate added / 25% loin ,purely because it has been easy to prepare it this way with the thickness of the meat slices that I have . I plan to steer away from using loin in future however the order of shoulder which I collected this week turned out to be loin. I didn't discover this till I reached home and did not have time to take it back. I won't be buying any more loin for the foreseeable future.

Feeding the pork in a different way is a good idea, thank you . Maybe I'll try feeding some meals poached, some minced etc. I daren't feed chunks though as I've found them more likely to be vomited. I suppose that , unless well chewed, they are more likely to get stuck inside and trigger a vomit. Incidentally Dylan " stole" a whole slice of pork a short while back. I allowed him to consume his " prize" but it didn't stay down for long. Whether he was in a rush to consume it , thinking that it might be taken from him, I don't know but . . . .he'd barely chewed it at all. Sorry if TMI :Vomit
xx



Pepperpots said:


> So tricky. I wouldn't worry about the amount he's eating if he's not losing weight. Could just be the hot weather.
> 
> It's hard to know what protein to suggest. The more novel ones like kangaroo/zebra can only really be bought online in bulk, which isn't much use for you. Maybe something like a guinea fowl breast from the supermarket?
> 
> Mine seem to be doing ok on the Purrform supplement. It hasn't made them throw up, which is a good start! It's a shame it's not water soluble as it's a bit gritty. If you minced a little bit of pork, could you mix it with that and a bit of water, rather than pilling?
> 
> Wishing you all,the luck on the world and am so sorry about the duck.





Pepperpots said:


> Regarding brushing - I'd recommend investing in a cheap version of a furminator. That way you can have a good long session and remove all the dead hair.


Thank you too @Pepperpots. I feel inclined to forget the new protein for the moment. It just doesn't seem to be working. Maybe when we're well away from shedding season and I can be relatively sure that any increase in vomits are down to what Dylan is eating and not down to ingestion of hair. . . . .

Dylan had lost 40g in 2 weeks when I weighed him this week but I supposed that could just be down to not having wee'ed or pooped. Time will tell I suppose.

I used to give the Purrform Supplement mixed with food, until Dylan flatly refused to eat the food which had it added. That's why I resorted to administration via capsule.

Luck gratefully received 

I almost forgot . I *do *have a cheap ( Lidl's) version of a furminator however it seemed to make things worse. It seemed to be loosening *all* of Dylan's hair  so I put it away again. xx


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I almost forgot . I *do *have a cheap ( Lidl's) version of a furminator however it seemed to make things worse. It seemed to be loosening *all* of Dylan's hair  so I put it away again. xx


I feel the same way about furminators.


----------



## Forester

I admit to being disappointed with Dylan's vomit total for May. It was 7. One more than in each of the last 3 months, although about half the level he was at this time last year. It is looking as though we've hit a plateau. I wonder whether the level would have been lower had I not tried to introduce a tiny quantity of duck . I will never know.

I've resorted to increasing Dylan's dose of cetirizine to 5mg per day, in order to keep him eating . 5mg is the dose which he's meant to have to help with his eosinophilic inflammation although I've been giving 3.3mg for months.

I'm back to slowly increasing the proportion of Dylan's diet which consists of meat balanced with Purrform Supplement . During this last week I've been giving 33% of his food this way. Next week I plan to move to 40%. Over the last week I've noticed an increase in Dylan's activity levels although he's never been remotely lethargic, maybe due to the extra nutrients in his diet ???????

The ever changing food formula makes for an " interesting" life, as the quantities of different supplements need to be recalculated each time I make changes. Never mind , it keeps me occupied.At 33% Purrformed meat plus tablets I'm giving 3 capsules per day. Part of me is looking forward to getting to 100% but another part is dreading it. The only alternative I can think of is to syringe the Purrform supplement in some pork though I fancy that idea even less than giving 7 capsules per day.


----------



## Forester

A week further on and I'm feeling more upbeat. I'm getting close to having Dylan on a fully complete raw diet. It definitely isn't the diet that I'd hoped for when I started this transition.I had envisaged myself following a recipe using liver, kidney , heart and eggshell calcium amongst other things *, *maybe even being able to rotate between proteins. Instead we have , or will have when the transition is finished, just pork meat and Purrform Complete Supplement.

Never mind, getting to that stage , is going to make me very, very happy. I do intend to try supplementing the PCS to make it closer to the FEDIAF guidelines . I'm aware that the supplement contains no choline at all and although cats _can _synthesize choline , it requires high levels of B vits which Dylan is unlikely to have in excess. I'm acutely aware that due to his intestinal fibrosis Dylan will not be absorbing nutrients as a healthy cat would.

I am assuming that Dylan will cope with a full dose of the PurrForm supplement however I'm becoming more confident by the day. We're currently on 40% of the target dose and planning to go to 50% next Monday. Whenever Dylan has reacted to something he's always done it way before the 50% level, usually anywhere between 5% and 25% so I think that we're OK ( crosses everything which can be crossed ) . It looks as though the end of the transition is in sight and I'll be able to sign this thread off soon.

As for our current situation, Dylan hasn't been sick at all since my last entry., in fact he's only been sick once in the two weeks since I gave up on the duck.


----------



## Paddypaws

That's brilliant @Forester


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> That's brilliant @Forester


Thanks @Paddypaws. We're *almost *there , or at least I think that we are. 







Why is there no fingers crossed emoticon when you need one?

Of course the complete raw diet will not be an end in itself, merely a means to an end but it is a point which I've often feared that we would never reach. I apologise if I've bored everyone to death with our seemingly endless and impossible journey but this thread has been so helpful to me. Its been my release valve and my source of inspiration. Without you all I would not have made it this far.

I'll let you know when we finally reach the 100% Purrformed diet, hopefully it won't take much longer.


----------



## Forester

I don't know why I thought that everything was going to go smoothly from now on.

We increased the Purrform supplement to 50% of the target dose yesterday however Dylan has been sick twice today. I have no idea whether there's any connection between the two events , but I hope not. I plan to leave things as they are but will alter plans if Dylan is sick again in the next couple of days. 

Dylan did get hold of the remains of some tinned salmon at lunchtime, again I can only guess whether that has affected him. It was only the morsels too small to fit onto a fork. The first vomit came before the salmon " treat", the second about 7 hours later.


----------



## Forester

Will I never learn not to get over confident?. It seems not.

After Dylan's 2 vomits on Tuesday and I nausea session yesterday I decided to reduce Dylan's PurrFormed meat back to 40%. He'd been fine on that and maybe I've become rather overenthusiastic about his ability to cope with an increase.

He's been sick again this morning. It looks as though June, much like May, isn't going to break any records.

I am considering whether a change in the texture of Dylan's meat could also be contributing to the bad patch. With trying to use different cuts of meat recently I've been having difficulty cutting it as finely as I would like. I've tried mincing but ended up with " strings" of meat which I think were even worse than the larger pieces.I need a consistency which is going to slide down easily to minimise the likelihood of a temporary blockage for food entering or leaving Dylan's stomach. My scissors, once razor sharp, are now becoming somewhat blunt making cutting more difficult. 

Any suggestions welcome.


----------



## lorilu

Well you most definitely will need a new pair of scissors, or sharpening. Or..do you have a food processor? For my IBD girl I use the food processor attachment to my blender and grind her meat up. I then weigh the meat into individual servings, freeze in ice cube trays, then bag them up when frozen. I take out what I need daily. The other two eat chunks.

She's having a rough month too. June 15th and already vomited meals 4 times. All with fur included. She's not passing much fur in her poop, which is troubling.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Well you most definitely will need a new pair of scissors, or sharpening. Or..do you have a food processor? For my IBD girl I use the food processor attachment to my blender and grind her meat up. I then weigh the meat into individual servings, freeze in ice cube trays, then bag them up when frozen. I take out what I need daily. The other two eat chunks.
> 
> She's having a rough month too. June 15th and already vomited meals 4 times. All with fur included. She's not passing much fur in her poop, which is troubling.


Thanks , @lorilu . I'm so sorry to hear that your girl is going through a bad spell. It's rough on you as well as her. It sounds as though she might have a wad of fur stuck somewhere, in need of shifting. Is she still getting her regular long fasts ?

I was looking into getting some new poultry shears to replace my scissors but have also been considering whether a hand held blender, a full size blender or even a grinder would do the job. I do have both a handheld blender and a full size blender however I can't find the handheld one at the moment. I usually cut up 1lb meat, add the current rate of calcium carbonate, then freeze the mix in meal sized portions. I add taurine before serving. ( all other supplements as well as meds go into capsules for administration).

Incidentally today's new batch of food with 60% of the calcium carbonate quota has been flatly refused. I included some pigs cheek along with the shoulder and it's currently being treated like poison. If he still won't eat it later I'll have to make another batch.

@lorilu Can I ask what consistency you manage to achieve with your food processor. Does it "flow" ? Dylan can manage anything up to petit pois size but nothing larger.


----------



## Paddypaws

As you are not grinding bone you would be ok with a cheap grinder check eBay or gumtree for second hand


----------



## Paddypaws

Maybe even a manual crank grinder


----------



## Forester

@Paddypaws , I've tried using my old ( 1970's  ) hand cranked mincer which has metal components. I ended up with the pork in " strings" which I felt were as likely to get stuck inside as the chunks. Dylan has fibrosis throughout his G I system so, in addition to the lack of peristaltic movement , his" tubing" is narrowed in places.

Would I be able to achieve a fluid consistency with a grinder ? I don't mind buying a decent grinder if it would help , just don't want to fork out only to find out that the food is still stringy.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Can I ask what consistency you manage to achieve with your food processor. Does it "flow" ? Dylan can manage anything up to petit pois size but nothing larger.


It's close to the consistency of pate, except for the bits of extra skin I add. When I do suppers tonight I'll take some video to help show the texture of it.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> It's close to the consistency of pate, except for the bits of extra skin I add. When I do suppers tonight I'll take some video to help show the texture of it.


That would be lovely, thank you.

Earlier on Dylan was clearly very hungry but still refusing the new batch of food. I added some Fortiflora, rather more than I intended to, and it disappeared within about 10 seconds flat!


----------



## lorilu

Well it's a bit long, over 7 minutes. I got a little carried away lol. Later I'll make a short version if you don't want to see every detail like you see here. But this is all I have time for now @Forester


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Well it's a bit long, over 7 minutes. I got a little carried away lol. Later I'll make a short version if you don't want to see every detail like you see here. But this is all I have time for now @Forester


That will be wonderful, thank you @lorilu. I don't have sound on my lappy at this precise moment but I'll watch it later.

As an update, Dylan vomited again round about midnight and once more with his early breakfast. Meals in between were kept down. I decided to take him to the vets if he failed to keep some pure pork shoulder down but he was OK and has been since. Yesterday's batch containing some pigs cheek has been discarded ( although this bad spell started before I included any cheek ) and he's under very close observation.


----------



## Forester

Your video was fabulous @lorilu. Thank you for taking the time and effort to make it.

Those girls of yours sure do get 5 star catering. ( not that I doubted it! )

I get the impression that it is your wafer thin slicing of the meat which allows it to become so mushy. I'll have to see whether I can emulate that.


----------



## Paddypaws

@Forester if you pm me your mobile I can WhatsApp you a video of Milo's food mix which goes through the grinder


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> @Forester if you pm me your mobile I can WhatsApp you a video of Milo's food mix which goes through the grinder


Thanks @Paddypaws , will do.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I get the impression that it is your wafer thin slicing of the meat which allows it to become so mushy. I'll have to see whether I can emulate that.


No, the meat is run through the food processor into a mousse consistency. A whole frozen piece, once thawed, would mash up into the same soft texture.

Thanks for watching.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> No, the meat is run through the food processor into a mousse consistency. A whole frozen piece, once thawed, would mash up into the same soft texture.
> 
> Thanks for watching.


The pleasure was mine.  Your girls are so well mannered at meal times. Dylan is like a spoilt brat demanding food NOW!!!!


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## carly87

I wonder whether blending would help? I have texture issues with certain foods, sadly mostly the health stuff, and find that a blender really helps as I can turn it into mush and get it down that way. as you're not griding bone, a good blender should be able to work magic, if you add a little water to the mix.


----------



## Forester

carly87 said:


> I wonder whether blending would help? I have texture issues with certain foods, sadly mostly the health stuff, and find that a blender really helps as I can turn it into mush and get it down that way. as you're not griding bone, a good blender should be able to work magic, if you add a little water to the mix.


Thanks @carly87 . I'm going to try a batch in the blender tomorrow.

This evening I tried to mash a small portion which was prepared in readiness to feed later. The flesh mashed up well but the fat from the pork shoulder was rather stringy.


----------



## Forester

I've made a small batch of sloppy food using my blender . I'm pleased with the consistency though I won't find out Dylan's thoughts until tomorrow.

If anyone's interested in the difference blending makes I'll include some photos.

An example of what I have been feeding . To this I add a little water. This is one meal portion - 20g










My blended mixture.










Blended mixture ready for freezing. There were a few small pieces lurking at the bottom of the blender which can be seen in a couple of the portions however these pieces are smaller than the chunks he's currently eating.










. . . . . . .because he's worth it !


----------



## lorilu

Yes that's what the meat looks like after the food processor too. Hope he likes it!


----------



## Forester

The mixture produced by blending is definitely the smoothest however @Paddypaws' grinder also produces a mixture which is much finer than the one I've been making up with my kitchen scissors. IMO either mixture would be less likely to cause a blockage in Dylan's compromised digestive tract than what I'm currently feeding. It would also be much easier and quicker to prepare, I think.

Tomorrow I'm planning to check with the boss whether he finds the mousse acceptable. If he does, great ; if not - I'll get a grinder!

I have multiple reasons for hoping that Dylan will approve of his new menu. I have a feeling that it might be possible to disguise at least some of Dylan's Purrform supplement in a mixture instead of having to give it in capsules.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> The mixture produced by blending is definitely the smoothest however @Paddypaws' grinder also produces a mixture which is much finer than the one I've been making up with my kitchen scissors. IMO either mixture would be less likely to cause a blockage in Dylan's compromised digestive tract than what I'm currently feeding. It would also be much easier and quicker to prepare, I think.
> 
> Tomorrow I'm planning to check with the boss whether he finds the mousse acceptable. If he does, great ; if not - I'll get a grinder!
> 
> I have multiple reasons for hoping that Dylan will approve of his new menu. I have a feeling that it might be possible to disguise at least some of Dylan's Purrform supplement in a mixture instead of having to give it in capsules.


Good luck for tomorrow!


----------



## Forester

Thank you @SbanR 

We haven't started with the " mousse" yet as our daily regime starts with lunch. Breakfast is prepared the day before.

Dylan was sick again first thing this morning , making that 6 times this week, as many vomits as we've been getting during recent months. Some light has however been shed upon this recent " blip" . This morning I found last night's supplement capsule which contained his prednisolone in the kitchen sink. OH has previously found 2 more capsules " hidden" behind a cushion on the sofa. It looks as though the little tinker has perfected the art of concealing meds in his mouth ready for ejection later ; further evidence that I need to find an alternative method of getting the Purrform supplement into him! That way I can give tablets " unwrapped" which seems to be more successful.

If it's not one thing it's another.


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## chillminx

Aww, what a crafty boy he is! I used to have a cat who would do the same if given a tablet/capsule, unless I gave them literally immediately before his meal. 

I started a while ago grinding up the raw food for my cats after one choked on a chunk of meat, fell over and stopped breathing! Luckily I was in the room at the time and able to help him, but now I am so scared of the same thing happening again I will never feed chunks of raw again. The thing with chunks is they tend to gulp them down whole, so there is no real advantage to chunks rather than feeding the meat ground up. 

As you say, ground meat is so useful for hiding meds or supplements. If you grind his food you could even give him ground bone, if you preferred that instead of the calcium supplement.  

Loving the photo of Dylan - he is looking fantastic - so handsome and cuddly, with the most gorgeous coat! All your hard work with the diet is very much reaping rewards.  xx


----------



## Forester

chillminx said:


> Aww, what a crafty boy he is! I used to have a cat who would do the same if given a tablet/capsule, unless I gave them literally immediately before his meal.
> 
> *I started a while ago grinding up the raw food for my cats after one choked on a chunk of meat, fell over and stopped breathing!* Luckily I was in the room at the time and able to help him, but now I am so scared of the same thing happening again I will never feed chunks of raw again. The thing with chunks is they tend to gulp them down whole, so there is no real advantage to chunks rather than feeding the meat ground up.
> 
> As you say, ground meat is so useful for hiding meds or supplements. If you grind his food you could even give him ground bone, if you preferred that instead of the calcium supplement.
> 
> Loving the photo of Dylan - he is looking fantastic - so handsome and cuddly, with the most gorgeous coat! All your hard work with the diet is very much reaping rewards.  xx


Oh my goodness @chillminx , that must have given you a terrible fright. I too would have abandoned feeding chunks after an experience like that !

Dylan seems able to detect a mere speck of " foreign substance" mixed with chunks so I'm not holding my breath over the mousse. It would make life so much easier if I could feed the Complete Supplement that way though.

I tend to administer meds _after _a meal when I'm confident that the meal has gone down. We've lost far too many tablets by doing it the other way round. I can assure you that hunting for tablets (e.g.previous antibiotics where we only had the correct number) amongst rejected food is not a pleasant task!

If I do invest in a grinder I don't think that I'll attempt to feed bone as I'd be concerned about the effects of the extra phosphorus on Dylan's kidneys. He's had an awful lot of "serious" medication in his life and his last SDMA test showed his level at 14. Within the normal range - just, but only just. Irrespective of the state of Dylan's kidneys he only tolerates pork and I imagine that pork bones would be more than a match for most grinders.

Thank you for your remarks regarding Dylan's condition. I will admit to being very proud of his appearance these days. To see him now , compared to how he was 12 months ago , is worth all the trials and tribulations of the transition ,100 times over.

xx


----------



## Forester

Dylan's first portion of pork mousse has been eaten, although extremely reluctantly. I resorted to a dusting of Fortiflora after he'd given me a demonstration of what he thought should be done with it. He'd better get used to it !


----------



## chillminx

Yes, you're right, a domestic meat grinder wouldn't cope with pork bones. It would need an industrial grinder. I grind raw rabbit bones and raw chicken bones, but with Dylan only tolerating pork, giving him rabbit and chicken bones would not be a good idea as you say.


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## Forester

Please can I scream ? We've had our 7th " return" of the week.

Knowing that it's likely to be a result of missed tablets helps, but it's somewhat depressing. We'd come so far and now the wheels seem to have fallen off.

I've given an extra 1mg pred. this evening, although it's hardly extra when he's missed at least 3 doses during the last week. We need to get back to some sort of stability, and quickly. We have had many periods like this in the past but none since Dylan's been on all raw. I ought to be used to it ,but it's hard, bl**dy hard.

The pork mousse has been rejected unless it's smothered in Fortiflora . I'll see how he does with his two overnight meals but tomorrow I may resort to giving just a small portion of mousse alongside some chopped pork.I''m also going to give tablets separately from supplements in future. Maybe one day I'll establish an optimum method of feeding.


----------



## Forester

chillminx said:


> Yes, you're right, a domestic meat grinder wouldn't cope with pork bones. It would need an industrial grinder. I grind raw rabbit bones and raw chicken bones, but with Dylan only tolerating pork, giving him rabbit and chicken bones would not be a good idea as you say.


Unfortunately rabbit and chicken are both definitely off the menu. Pork meat is the only protein that I've found Dylan to tolerate,he can't even take pork offal. He has to have the most limited of limited ingredient diets. Dylan is very special, bless him!


----------



## Forester

Pork mousse appears to be acceptable to His Lordship so long as it has a generous garnish of Fortiflora. I'll be working on reducing the embellishments over the next few days. 

On a brighter note, the latest dollops of mousse have stayed inside the cat. I just need this to continue.

Dylan has received his tablets neat this morning and didn't appear to notice them inside his mouth till it was too late for him to do anything about it. Forester 1 Dylan 0.


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## carly87

Sending you a hug, just because. I can feel your frustration from here, and really sympathise with it. My trials are nothing compared to yours, but having found a raw that I thought mind would both eat, they're now starting to turn their noses up at it, and I literally have no brands left to try. Nothing at all. I'd love to scream sometimes!


----------



## Forester

Oh @carly87 thank you for the hug. I'm very touched. May I reciprocate ? My difficulties over Dylan's diet are dwarfed by those which life has thrown at you. I really admire how you manage to cope with everything , and still go out of your way to help others, almost all of whom are more fortunate than you. Do you have anyone who would be willing to make raw food for you in order to give your cats some variety ? I'd do it for you if only you were close by.

I believe that Dylan's last vomit illustrated another reason why he's had such a bad spell during the last few days. Last week he appeared to be shedding more than usual so I brushed him, removing a large quantity of hair. Sadly, as I've found after previous grooming sessions , it also caused him to ingest large amounts which his system can't cope with. Yesterday evening's vomit contained much more hair than food. The loose hair, missed tablets and possibly the inclusion of some pork cheek all seem to have exacerbated the situation.

ETA @carly87 I " liked " your last post purely because I appreciated the hug. On reflection the like seems somewhat callous when you've described your situation. No one on earth could like that.


----------



## Forester

Dylan was sick yet again on Monday evening. He's also extremely reluctant to eat the pork mousse , although it does disappear overnight. Giving his tablets separately from his supplements is helping though, or at least no cast offs have been found.

Feeling a little desperate to find a way out of this bad patch I had a mad moment yesterday. I've ordered a grinder.

https://www.ocado.com/webshop/produ...m=3912660887&parentContainer=ORDER|3912660887

I know that I shouldn't really need one for just one cat, especially when I don't feed bone , but I just can't cut his meat as finely as I'd like to. The blended pork looks perfect to me , if only the little sausage would eat it. His reluctance to eat the mousse is even greater when I water it down to a fluid consistency. I have justified my purchase on the grounds that it's an excellent deal, it was £50 more on Amazon. There again why should I need to justify it ? It's for Dylan so we have it. That's enough for me.

We're stuck on 40% Purrformed meat at the moment but I'm not going to change that till we get some respite from this current disastrous spell.

Oh, by the way, I thought that Dylan had lost weight over the last 10 days, in fact it appeared to be almost falling off him in front of my eyes. It's funny how the mind plays tricks, he's now 5.68kg, -about the same as in recent months!


----------



## lorilu

I think the grinder is a great idea and I hope you love it. You can always use it for yourself too you know. Make hamburger or whatever other ground meat you might like. All paws crossed he's soon over this bad patch. We've had rough going here too, though not as frequent as Dylan, she's been vomiting every 3-4 days instead of her usual every 7-10 days. 

So glad he's not lost any weight.xxx


----------



## Forester

The grinder is here. I can't wait to try it out. I'm planning to grind a batch tomorrow afternoon when OH is out of the way, just in case I end up with raw pork sprayed everywhere. OH is enthusiastic about my purchase, although I could have made a mistake in telling him that it will make sausages!!!!!

Dylan hasn't been sick since Monday evening so I'm hopeful that the situation may be improving.

@lorilu, I'm so sorry to hear that your girl is still going through a rough patch. I know how helpless it makes you feel. Sending positive vibes for her, and a virtual shoulder to lean on for you.xx


----------



## Forester

I'm extremely pleased with the grinder. I can see that it's going to save so much work.

Much to my relief Dylan appears to be equally impressed with the food produced, and has kept it down. It's now 72 hours since he was last sick so hopefully the situation is improving.

If anyone is interested in the consistency of the minced pork this is a tiny batch made using the medium sized plate. We also have a fine and coarse plates. I will add water to future batches but wanted to illustrate how the meat comes out of the grinder.


----------



## LJC675

Whenever I make mine I don't add water until I defrost it. I like to freeze without extra water as it freezes better. Then defrost in the fridge, adding hot water before serving to bring to a nice tepid temperature.


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## SbanR

@Forester where did you get that lovely dish?


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> @Forester where did you get that lovely dish?


This? 









It came from my local( ish) independant pet shop. I love it too . Sadly , it doesn't carry any manufacturers details. I would like to get another myself as it's an ideal size for small meals, and perfectly weighted when you use the ears as a handle. I'd hoped to get another last time I visited the shop but they'd sold them all.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> This?
> View attachment 358291
> 
> 
> It came from my local( ish) independant pet shop. I love it too . Sadly , it doesn't carry any manufacturers details. I would like to get another myself as it's an ideal size for small meals, and perfectly weighted when you use the ears as a handle. I'd hoped to get another last time I visited the shop but they'd sold them all.





Forester said:


> This?
> View attachment 358291
> 
> 
> It came from my local( ish) independant pet shop. I love it too . Sadly , it doesn't carry any manufacturers details. I would like to get another myself as it's an ideal size for small meals, and perfectly weighted when you use the ears as a handle. I'd hoped to get another last time I visited the shop but they'd sold them all.


Yes. It's lovely


----------



## Forester

Dylan has been sick twice this week so we're not yet back to how we were before the recent bad spell. June is a disaster.

To think that I'd been under the impression that we'd come so far. It feels as though I'm swimming against the tide. I know that I have to buck myself up, for Dylan's sake, but I just want to cry. IBD stinks!!!!!!


----------



## Paddypaws

Aww sorry you are feeling down about his progress. To put it in perspective though, I have been presented with daily vomits/hairballs for the past week so maybe you can’t blame all of this on IBD


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## lorilu

It's a vicious cycle that's for sure. {{{{ @Forester }}}}


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Aww sorry you are feeling down about his progress. To put it in perspective though, I have been presented with daily vomits/hairballs for the past week so maybe you can't blame all of this on IBD





lorilu said:


> It's a vicious cycle that's for sure. {{{{ @Forester }}}}


Thank you ladies . I think that I'm just feeling a bit ground down. I must appreciate that I still have my boy, he looks fabulous and has a decent quality of life. It could be so much worse.


----------



## carly87

Hi Forester

Reciprocated hugs are always good! I've got nobody who can make the raw for me, no, and no energy to do it myself. My situation has gotten worse too because my lovely surgeon told me recently that the screws they put in my back to hold the rods in place are coming out, so I'm going to have to have my surgery all over again and then some, as they want to fuse another 2 levels while they're in there. This will mean that more of my back is held together with rods than not, so a bit of a scary concept. The food osituation is getting to be a real issue, as this time, my friend is unlikely to be able to take the 2 cats for me, meaning that feeding needs to be simple, hassle free, and above all, cheap as this surgery means I will lose my job and my home as we can't afford the rent on OHs income, so the little sods will need to stop turning their noses up or go hungry! I know home made raw would be the cheapest option, but they're just going to have to content themselves with Palio Ridge for nowo as it's what they'll be getting for the next few months! If anyone knows of a raw friendly butcher in the Worcestershire area, please shout as I'd love to meet him!  Sorry for the downer, and I really hope that your little pickle stops vomming soon! Hope the grinder helps with that a little.


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## Forester

carly87 said:


> Hi Forester
> 
> Reciprocated hugs are always good! I've got nobody who can make the raw for me, no, and no energy to do it myself. My situation has gotten worse too because my lovely surgeon told me recently that the screws they put in my back to hold the rods in place are coming out, so I'm going to have to have my surgery all over again and then some, as they want to fuse another 2 levels while they're in there. This will mean that more of my back is held together with rods than not, so a bit of a scary concept. The food osituation is getting to be a real issue, as this time, my friend is unlikely to be able to take the 2 cats for me, meaning that feeding needs to be simple, hassle free, and above all, cheap as this surgery means I will lose my job and my home as we can't afford the rent on OHs income, so the little sods will need to stop turning their noses up or go hungry! I know home made raw would be the cheapest option, but they're just going to have to content themselves with Palio Ridge for nowo as it's what they'll be getting for the next few months! If anyone knows of a raw friendly butcher in the Worcestershire area, please shout as I'd love to meet him!  Sorry for the downer, and I really hope that your little pickle stops vomming soon! Hope the grinder helps with that a little.


I'm sorry that I haven't been on the forum for several days. Life has been so manic that I've barely had a chance to stand still.

Carly, I'm so sorry to hear that you're going to need more surgery, and of the problems which will result. It's only natural for you to feel scared , particularly in view of what has happened to you in the past. Naturally you will be imagining the worst case scenario. I desperately hope that things won't be that bad. I do understand your concerns and feelings of desperation.

I was once in a situation where I had a bad horse riding accident which kept me off work for a year, and never allowed me to work more than a few hours again. I was unable to lie down , at all, for 7 and 1/2 months and I had 2 horses to look after. All the time I was in excruciating pain . I managed although I don't quite know how. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that you *will* find a way to cope because your cats mean everything to you as my horses did to me. I have no doubt that you have many good friends who will help in whatever way they can.

If your cats will eat the Paleo Ridge food I imagine that's probably about the cheapest option around. I had wondered whether it would be feasible for me to make food for your cats , with you paying for the ingredients, but you'd need to have someone to collect it as I'm not able to leave home due to caring for my OH. Depending on where in Worcestershire you are , you might not be too far away from me. I'm in the Forest of Dean. If I can be any help please let me know. Unfortunately I have a feeling that any food which I made would work out considerably more expensive than Paleo Ridge.


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## Forester

June yielded 12 vomits, twice as many as recent months . I imagine that explanation for the sudden dramatic rise lies with both the missed medication and increased ingestion of hair due to the warm weather.

Dylan has been slightly better since I've been more vigilant as to what he's been doing with his prednisolone tablets. One tablet managed to get spat out yesterday morning whilst Dylan was out in his run. I saw it sail through the air, pass through the mesh of the run and land between the run and my neighbour's fence. Dylan got re medicated.

I believe that it is the number of capsules containing Purrform Supplement which Dylan is objecting to. Over the last couple of days I've tried to mix just a few grains of supplement into each meal. and it's been eaten. I'm currently giving 50% of the Purrform dose and , as I increase, I'll try to hide the increase into my minced mixture.

I've also decided to try adding another probiotic. Animalbiome in the USA have shown that healthy cats have a much more diverse microbiome than cats with IBD. With this in mind I'd like to introduce extra strains of " good bacteria " to Dylan's gut. I've chosen this product
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005IW1GOY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

My choice has been made partly because the product contains 14 strains, 10 of which he isn't getting at the moment. The product claims 40 billion CFU's , double that which he's getting in the Bioglan . I'm also keen to try a product containing strains of bacteria normally found in cats rather than just human strains. It is my belief that these "animal" bacteria will have a chance of colonising Dylan's gut which the human ones won't. I've got 2 months worth of Bioglan so I'll continue with that as well as the Mercola product, at least for the time being.


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## Aprilcandles

Forester said:


> My choice has been made partly because the product contains 14 strains, 10 of which he isn't getting at the moment. The product claims 40 billion CFU's , double that which he's getting in the Bioglan . I'm also keen to try a product containing strains of bacteria normally found in cats rather than just human strains. It is my belief that these "animal" bacteria will have a chance of colonising Dylan's gut which the human ones won't. I've got 2 months worth of Bioglan so I'll continue with that as well as the Mercola product, at least for the time being.


Hi Forester, please let us know how you get on with the Mercola. My kitten is also on Bioglan but still gets diarrhoea every now and again so I'm always on the lookout for a better probiotic! You're doing so well with Dylan and I completely understand how devastating it can be when you think you're making progress and then it feels like you're back at square one. Just got to keep on going


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## Forester

Aprilcandles said:


> Hi Forester, please let us know how you get on with the Mercola. My kitten is also on Bioglan but still gets diarrhoea every now and again so I'm always on the lookout for a better probiotic! You're doing so well with Dylan and I completely understand how devastating it can be when you think you're making progress and then it feels like you're back at square one. Just got to keep on going


Of course I'll let you know how we get on with the Mercola probiotic @Aprilcandles . I'm keen to start it, but unthinkingly made up next week's food with 40% calcium carbonate dose . That means feeding 40% "my" mix/ 60% meat with PurrForm supplement, a change from the current recipe . I don't like to make more than one change at a time so I probably won't start the Mercola till 16/7.

Just an idea , if Bioglan controls your kitten's diarrhoea most of the time have you considered increasing the dose a little? I don't know how old your kitten is, or the dose that you're feeding but 2 capsules per day for an adult cat is considered a therapeutic dose. The maintenance dose is half of that.

Thanks for the encouragement.. No matter what happens with Dylan's vomiting I will always keep going with the raw diet. Even though we've just experienced a rough spell he is so much better on raw than he was with either canned or the dreaded dry.


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## Forester

Well, I suppose that the good news is that Dylan hasn't been sick since last Sunday however his appetite is dwindling rapidly. I suppose that it's largely down to the heat but I'm running out of ideas to persuade him to eat more. 

At first he wasn't eating during the day but was OK at night however now he's just picking whenever it is. I've tried Fortiflora, Bioglan and nutritional yeast sprinkled on top of the food. This morning I've tried giving small chunks again, as well as lightly cooking the mince. I'm a little paranoid about bacteria in this heat if the food hasn't just come out of the fridge. Each time I try doing something different to the food Dylan will eat a couple of mouthfuls but nothing more.


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## Forester

Update on above post . Dylan has just eaten a full meal of freshly chopped pork without any supplements

Maybe the ground food will need to stay in the freezer for a while. It's disappointing but do I really care ?. No, I'm just so relieved that he's finally eaten a decent meal all at once.

It's a good job that I'm already grey  !!!!!!!!!!


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## chillminx

My sympathy Forester, I am struggling to get 2 of mine to eat too, in this hot weather.  They will go all day without eating or drinking atm unless I chivvy them and tempt them.


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> My sympathy Forester, I am struggling to get 2 of mine to eat too, in this hot weather.  They will go all day without eating or drinking atm unless I chivvy them and tempt them.


Oh @chillminx I feel for you too. I was telling myself not to worry too much so long as food was eaten at night . After all , we wouldn't want to eat a big meal whilst the temperature is so high, would we?

My problem with Dylan has been much worse during the last couple of days/nights and I'm sure that it's entirely my own fault. I forgot to put an ice pack inside Dylan's auto feeder one night with the result that very little was eaten. Since then I think that he's been associating the smell of his pork with food which didn't meet his stringent hygiene standards.

If yours are reluctant to eat would it help to offer them an alternative food ? In the past when Dylan has been on one of his hunger strikes I've been able to tempt him by offering something completely different. Sometimes I think that they associate a particular food with not feeling 100%..

Another thing that I tried in the hope of getting Dylan to drink was to provide a huge bowl of refrigerated water containing a large volume of ice cubes. It didn't encourage him to drink although he did dip his paws in the water!

Much as it lifts our spirits to have a proper summer , I , for one, will be glad when it cools down a little.


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## chillminx

I agree, offering something new/different is often a solution. I offered one of the reluctant eaters some Gourmet Gold turkey and salmon today and he wolfed it down, having refused 3 dishes of various of his normal foods.! I get a bit anxious he might start refusing the 'good' foods even when the weather cools down, but I reckon he will be OK, he is normally a good eater, quite a greedy boy actually. 

I too will be glad when it cools down a bit - just a few degrees will suit me. But knowing UK weather it will probably go from one extreme to the other and then I will be sorry I complained about the heat.


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## Torin.

Flicka definitely had the thing about associating certain foods with having felt nauseous (or actually been sick) in the past. Even if that was for reasons unrelated to her IBD. I had some special pouches that she only ever got after she had been sick, so they were never 'contaminated' with being associated with that feeling in the first place. Usually after one or two meals (generally smaller meals than normal) of the safe food she'd be happy to go back to something more usual without the negative link.


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## Forester

Torin. said:


> Flicka definitely had the thing about associating certain foods with having felt nauseous (or actually been sick) in the past. Even if that was for reasons unrelated to her IBD. I had some special pouches that she only ever got after she had been sick, so they were never 'contaminated' with being associated with that feeling in the first place. Usually after one or two meals (generally smaller meals than normal) of the safe food she'd be happy to go back to something more usual without the negative link.


If only I had a different food that I could give to Dylan however he only tolerates pork, and only pork loin or shoulder at that.

Due to the difficulties getting Dylan to eat I've reverted to feeding chunks with 50% calcium ( plus taurine and cod liver oil ) and 50% Purrform Supplement in capsules.He's eating the chunks O K. As I'm not increasing the proportion of PurrForm I've started just a small amount of the Mercola probiotics. Our target dose of the Mercola is 2g per day so I've started with 0.25g.

Last week was completely vomit free so it looks as though we're back on track.


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## Forester

Yesterday I gave Dylan his 0.25g Mercola probiotics in a capsule however today I tried to sneak it into his food. He can tell that his food has been " contaminated" and won't touch it. Honestly , that cat could detect a needle in a haystack. It's taken me years to find products which he can tolerate however, now that I've found some the task is to get him to eat them. . . . .I despair of ever managing to feed sufficient PurrForm Supplement to correctly balance his diet. I just can't feed that many tablets and capsules . It would mean 2 pred. tablets, 1 cetirizine tablet, 6 capsules of PurrForm, 8 capsules of Mercola. . . . . . . He doesn't tolerate lik e lics however I'm wondering whether it would be worth trying Primula cheese. There must be something that I can use. . . 

When I do eventually go back to giving ground meat, if we ever get back to that, I will try using the largest grinding plate. Up until now I've used the medium one.

Oh, and Dylan has broken his good spell. Part of yesterday evening's food was vomited .


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## lorilu

I completely understand all your feelings xx My current concern is she isn't absorbing her denosyl because it is getting caught up in the fur that always resides in her stomach. I know this because when she vomits, if there is fur in it, the tablet is caught in the fur, regardless of how long it has been since her last dose. I am going to have to try some kind of powder, but if they are bitter I don't know if she will take them in food. She's not overly picky, but..well I'll see how it goes.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I completely understand all your feelings xx My current concern is she isn't absorbing her denosyl because it is getting caught up in the fur that always resides in her stomach. I know this because when she vomits, if there is fur in it, the tablet is caught in the fur, regardless of how long it has been since her last dose. I am going to have to try some kind of powder, but if they are bitter I don't know if she will take them in food. She's not overly picky, but..well I'll see how it goes.


This is probably a stupid question as I'm sure that you will have already tried anything obvious however ,have you tried crushing the denosyl into a powder, and then giving it inside an empty capsule ?

------------------

I've tried dousing Dylan's pork sprinkled with Mercola probiotics with oodles of Fortiflora ,and he still won't eat it !


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## Forester

Why am I becoming anxious about getting Dylan to consume the new ( Mercola ) probiotics ? It's not as if they're likely to suddenly stop him vomiting. I've been told that he'll never do that, although I do still dream of such a situation. If I have to start them by giving just one grain per meal and gradually increasing so be it. I still need to get his level of Purrform supplement up. . . .and identify, as well as introduce a source of choline . To think that only a few weeks ago I felt that I'd almost reached my ( initial ) goal of the complete raw diet.

Never mind this transition is teaching me that there is always a way to do something, if only you can find it !


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> This is probably a stupid question as I'm sure that you will have already tried anything obvious however ,have you tried crushing the denosyl into a powder, and then giving it inside an empty capsule ?
> 
> ------------------
> 
> I've tried dousing Dylan's pork sprinkled with Mercola probiotics with oodles of Fortiflora ,and he still won't eat it !


The denosyl is meant to pass to the intestinal tract intact to be absorbed.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> The denosyl is meant to pass to the intestinal tract intact to be absorbed.


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## Forester

Urgh. Dylan has been sick most days this week.

I'm giving a small quantity of the new probiotics inside empty capsules but it's a nightmare trying to get everything into him. IBD is bad enough on it's own without Dylan working against me too. 

I've noticed a strange change in his vomiting pattern which I can't explain. Up until recently he's always vomited whole meals but he's started to vomit just a proportion of his meal, usually accompanied by a clump or two of hair. Why on earth would this situation change ?

Oh , and the little horror is still refusing ground pork.:Banghead


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## Forester

Things appear to have improved since last Thursday. Dylan hasn't been sick and I'm managing to get him to take my desired supplements.

I've been in touch with my raw feeding advisor in the US and she's suggested that I try to get some choline into his diet, to help with motility. I'm therefore trying to introduce the phosphatidyl choline which I bought at around the same time as the PurrForm Complete Supplement. I know that I shouldn't try to change more than one element of the diet at one time however everything takes so long to accomplish with Dylan and I'm desperate. I'm therefore trying to introduce PC and the Mercola probiotics concurrently. If Dylan reacts badly I can always withdraw one of them in order to determine the culprit.

Dylan is still refusing to eat ground meat so that has been abandoned for the time being. I am only preparing 120g food at a time and this is allowing me to both change my recipe daily and to spend less time cutting meat per session.It also allows me to waste much less food should a formulation fail to pass the Master's taste test !

Introduction of the Mercola probiotics appears to be going reasonably well. Dylan appears unable to detect them when 0.3g ( 1/6 of a maintenance dose , 1/12 of a therapeutic dose )is mixed into his meat so I intend to try to continue giving it this way. It's much less stressful for both him and me than giving it in capsules.I plan to increase to 1/2 g for my next day's batch.

The phosphatydil choline capsules are enormous , probably size 00 or even 000. I've squeezed just 1 drop out and added this to Dylan's capsules during the last 2 days. I'm giving 2 drops today. Unfortunately the PC in the capsules is liquid when the capsules are first opened but turns to gel after 24 hours in the fridge.This morning I've ended up squeezing the gel into 8 capsules . . . . . but the PC seems to be dissolving my capsules . Whether these capsules will be usable remains to be seen. At 50p per PC capsule I may be increasing Dylan's dosage quite rapidly. I could, of course, try adding the PC directly to Dylan's food however I've tasted it myself and I can't see it merging into the food without being detected.

Dylan has been on the Mercola probiotics ( reduced dosage ) for around a week and I think that I'm seeing a positive change already ( possibly wishful thinking ). He's pooped on 3 consecutive days ( the first time this has happened since he's been on all raw ) and there has been much more hair in his " offerings" than usual.

In the past I've found that brushing Dylan has resulted in the ingestion of increased quantities of hair, with disastrous results. I've now started combing him daily and I believe that this is removing most of the hair which it loosens , a considerable improvement. I'm not using any special comb, just one of my old ones!

If Dylan continues to take the Mercola probiotics in his food , so doesn't have to have it in capsules, I may try increasing the Purrform Supplement again. 3 tablets and 5 capsules in a day is achievable , more than that is just too much.


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## Forester

I'm moving forward in my quest to make Dylan's raw diet complete. 

75% of his meat is now accompanied by PurrForm Complete supplement, with just 25% consisting of my meat + calcium carbonate + taurine + cod liver oil combination.He's still having just 2 drops of phosphatidyl choline as well as 0.5g Mercola probiotics ( 1/2 of a maintenance dose ).I've dropped the Bioglan for now in order to reduce the number of capsules he's having. TBH the Bioglan had never appeared to make any difference that I was aware of. I just fed it because it should theoretically have helped. All of the strains of bacteria contained in Bioglan are included in the Mercola probiotics , so once I get the Mercola dose increased a little more, he shouldn't be losing out on anything he was having previously.

He's still having 2mg Prednisolone and 0.5g Cetirizine Hydrochloride daily

Dylan's vomiting seems to have settled back to the level which we were experiencing earlier in the year. I suspect that combing him daily has helped. It's removing an awful lot of hair,and not leaving loose hair behind. Added to that, Dylan loves being combed.


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## Forester

We're ploughing on .

I'm still feeding 75% meat with PurrForm Complete Supplement/ 25% my old mix. Dylan's daily intake of the Mercola probiotics is up to 1g per day , which is the maintenance dose ; and I've increased the Phosphatidyl Choline to 3 drops per day. I'm still giving Prednisolone and Cetirizine at the dose he's been on for the last 12 months.

@Aprilcandles , The Mercola probiotics don't appear to have made any difference yet, with the possible exception of poo being slightly more moist ( a good thing ) and maybe slightly more frequent. I wasn't really expecting any rapid change with these anyway as my aim in giving them is to gradually improve the diversity of bacteria in Dylan's gut. I appreciate this this, if it does occur ,could well take many months to happen.

I will increase the proportion of Purrform Supplemented meat to 100% pretty soon , however it will involve giving yet more capsules which I don't want to have to do just yet. Despite the Purrform claiming to be complete I do intend to continue to supplement choline in the form of the Phosphatidyl choline although I realise that I won't be able to give the amount which Dylan really needs. PC is only 19% choline but I'm telling myself that every little helps.

Vomit wise we've had 7 so far this month, better than this time last year but not as good as he was during the early months of this year.

I'm intending to discontinue this diary when we reach 100% Purrformed meat as I've probably bored anyone who has read this far to sleep. I do however have more supplements which I'd like to try Dylan with, collagen being the first. I firmly believe that, if it is tolerated, it might contribute to gut healing. We may be almost at the complete diet but I will never stop trying to help this little chap .


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## Paddypaws

Please don’t discontinue your updates. I know I’m not the only one following your progress with Dylan


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## Matrod

I follow Dylan’s progress too so please carry on


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Please don't discontinue your updates. I know I'm not the only one following your progress with Dylan


Are you sure????. Writing this has been immensely helpful to me ( it's kept me sane , I think ) but I have been wondering whether folks were inwardly groaning when they saw another entry. My original thought when I started this thread was that it could be helpful to someone just starting out on a transition but it's become pretty heavy going, especially when I've become disheartened.

I _will _continue if it's of use or interest to anyone though.


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## Forester

Matrod said:


> I follow Dylan's progress too so please carry on


OK. No problem.


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## oliviarussian

I’m following too.... I like to be kept up to speed with my fav lad!


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> I'm following too.... I like to be kept up to speed with my fav lad!


O K , my arm's been twisted.. I hadn't realised that so many people were sufficiently interested to want this to continue.

I will tell Dylan that any misdeeds will continue to be broadcast!


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## Paddypaws

I might not always comment but I do always read the updates. Good or not so good, it helps to share with others who understand. X


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## SbanR

I'm another who reads your updates. Those not interested can always ignore


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I might not always comment but I do always read the updates. *Good or not so good, it helps to share with others who understand. X*


*
*
This is so true. There have been times when I don't know how I'd have coped without your valuable input, as well as the release valve which the thread has provided. I didn't want to continue for purely selfish reasons though. It _*is*_ comforting for me to know that you're all on my side fighting a battle with this dreadful condition .If I'm entirely honest , thinking about this has just brought me to tears.( It makes a change to be crying for a reason other than having yet another pile of puke to clean up !). I cannot thank you enough.xx



SbanR said:


> I'm another who reads your updates. Those not interested can always ignore


Thank you.


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## Forester

I should have listened to my head telling me that it was a bad move to increase Dylan's Purrform Supplement, change probiotics, and try to introduce choline in another form, all at once. He appears to be deteriorating slightly and I haven't a clue what's going on. 

After our several months with him vomiting 6 times in a month we've had 7 in May, 12 in June and now 7 in July. . . . . .and he's already started his tally for August! I don't know whether to put this increase down to something I've changed, increased shedding because of the hot weather, or my biggest fear. . .that he's back on the inexorable decline. ( Before moving him onto the pork Dylan had only ever deteriorated, slowly and surely.On the creeping slide towards who knows what? Lymphoma? A total blockage due to his fibrosis ? ). I may be over reacting ( after all that's not like me   ) but it feels as though everything I've gained is slowly ebbing away. I'm once more hearing my vet say that " cats like him don't normally improve ".

I'm tossing up whether to stop the PC for now, or maybe the PC and the Mercola probiotic. Surely a probiotic wouldn't cause deterioration ? Maybe it's something in the Purrform, though he's been having that to some extent for months. Maybe it's just the time of year, after all everyone has been complaining about the number of hairballs their cats have had.Decisions , decisions. :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead


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## Paddypaws

Hmm, really hard to know what to blame but I will say again that all of my gang are slightly under par with this weather. 
X


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> Hmm, really hard to know what to blame but I will say again that all of my gang are slightly under par with this weather.
> X


Thanks @Paddypaws . I hope that I'm panicking over nothing and that Dylan's progress will continue once shedding slows down. . . . .however the worst case scenarios are always lurking in the background.

I think that I'm going to have to hold my nerve in order to find out. Dylan doesn't appear bothered in the least about the slight increase in his vomiting . He doesn't ever look hunched up or uncomfortable as he has done when reacting to some dietary introductions so maybe it is down to the weather . I might just hold the amount of Purrform, as well as the Mercola probiotics steady whilst leaving out the Phosphatidyl Choline .I haven't been supplying much choline this way anyway.I gather that many people feed the Purrform without supplementing choline , though I suspect that's more because they don't realise that it's not included despite being essential. I know that I've only given a tiny amount of PC anyway but with Dylan not tolerating other sources of choline it seems the most likely culprit, if there is a culprit. The problem with not giving the PC is that I'm going to continually worry about Dylan getting a fatty liver.or neurological problems. There are times when having the free time which allows me to worry is not necessarily a good thing.


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## Matrod

Forester said:


> I should have listened to my head telling me that it was a bad move to increase Dylan's Purrform Supplement, change probiotics, and try to introduce choline in another form, all at once. He appears to be deteriorating slightly and I haven't a clue what's going on.
> 
> After our several months with him vomiting 6 times in a month we've had 7 in May, 12 in June and now 7 in July. . . . . .and he's already started his tally for August! I don't know whether to put this increase down to something I've changed, increased shedding because of the hot weather, or my biggest fear. . .that he's back on the inexorable decline. ( Before moving him onto the pork Dylan had only ever deteriorated, slowly and surely.On the creeping slide towards who knows what? Lymphoma? A total blockage due to his fibrosis ? ). I may be over reacting ( after all that's not like me   ) but it feels as though everything I've gained is slowly ebbing away. I'm once more hearing my vet say that " cats like him don't normally improve ".
> 
> I'm tossing up whether to stop the PC for now, or maybe the PC and the Mercola probiotic. Surely a probiotic wouldn't cause deterioration ? Maybe it's something in the Purrform, though he's been having that to some extent for months. Maybe it's just the time of year, after all everyone has been complaining about the number of hairballs their cats have had.Decisions , decisions. :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead


Matilda always used to puke more during the summer months when she'd be moulting like the clappers & then things would slow down come the winter, fingers crossed it's just that & nothing more. Glad to hear his majesty isn't bothered by it.


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## Forester

Matrod said:


> Matilda always used to puke more during the summer months when she'd be moulting like the clappers & then things would slow down come the winter, fingers crossed it's just that & nothing more. Glad to hear his majesty isn't bothered by it.


Thanks for the reassuring words @Matrod. I desperately hope that you're right. In previous years Dylan's monthly rate has changed very little throughout the year but then he's never been exactly " normal".

As for being "bothered" , he will regularly be positioned next to his dish, asking for a refill, before I've even cleaned up.


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## lorilu

The terrible weather is affecting my girls too. And I live on a different continent. But the heat and humidity has been terribly detrimental, even for us, who are used to it to some extent.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> The terrible weather is affecting my girls too. And I live on a different continent. But the heat and humidity has been terribly detrimental, even for us, who are used to it to some extent.


I'm so sorry to hear that your lovely girls are suffering with the weather conditions too. It's so frustrating when we have no control over something which affects their health.

Dylan hasn't ever been affected more during shedding season before, but maybe that's been because he's been so bad that it's masked the seasonal variation. Now he's a little better the variation shows up ?????? Only time will tell.


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## Forester

During the last 5 days Dylan has been sick 3 times and had one close call where he would have done so had I not re positioned him. I have to work out what's going on.

I've therefore decided to take his diet right back to where we were in March to see whether he improves. Assuming that he does improve I will then gradually reintroduce the Purrform Supplement, Mercola probiotic and Phosphatidyl Choline, one at a time. My first thought was to go back to where we were before Dylan "flared" in June however , at that point he was only having 20% Purrformed meat. As 20% is a common level at which he starts to react to an ingredient I think that its wise to start the Supplement from scratch again. 

If Dylan doesn't improve with the withdrawal of Purrform, the new probiotic and PC then I'll know that they're not to blame .

My feeling is that it's the Purrform Supplement causing the problem. If it is, then I'll just have to go back to building the diet as best I can.


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## lorilu

{{hug}} Mazy cat puked up her lunch (which is only 0.3 oz) her denosyl and two gigantic wads of fur. Her last vomit was 5 days ago and the one before that was only 3 days. : (

I do know that Dylan is highly sensitive, and it may be you added too many new things at once, but..I still wouldn't discount the motility/fur build up issue. It just makes everything worse. {{hug}}


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> {{hug}} Mazy cat puked up her lunch (which is only 0.3 oz) her denosyl and two gigantic wads of fur. Her last vomit was 5 days ago and the one before that was only 3 days. : (
> 
> I do know that Dylan is highly sensitive, and it may be you added too many new things at once, but..I still wouldn't discount the motility/fur build up issue. It just makes everything worse. {{hug}}


I'm sorry to hear that Mazy cat is suffering so badly at the moment, and of course when she suffers so do you. It drags you down, it's bound to . I desperately hope that the shedding season will end soon and that you'll get some respite. ((( hugs ))) are reciprocated.

Urgh. At times like this I spend most of my waking hours wondering whether I'm doing what's best for Dylan. Should I have tried this or should I have done that ? I also seem to change my mind every 5 minutes about what to do. I wouldn't wish a situation like this on my worst enemy but I regularly wish that I could find someone else who has had to build a diet from such a limited base.

I may well be wrong but there are 2 reasons why I don't feel that Dylan's recent spikes in vomiting are purely dependant on increased shedding. First , he doesn't usually vomit much more when shedding than he does at other times of the year: and second, at the moment I'm combing him several times a day and am removing the hair - leaving virtually no hair for him to swallow.
There again, I'm probably wrong.


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## Matrod

[QUOTE="Forester, post: 1065238496, member: 1350046

Urgh. At times like this I spend most of my waking hours wondering whether I'm doing what's best for Dylan. Should I have tried this or should I have done that ? I also seem to change my mind every 5 minutes about what to do. 

I remember doing this with Matilda, I did my own head in with it. I also found with her with her that brushing seemed to increase the vomit rate, possibly because it left more loose hair that she ingested. I hope things improve soon.


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## Forester

Matrod said:


> [QUOTE="Forester, post: 1065238496, member: 1350046
> 
> Urgh. At times like this I spend most of my waking hours wondering whether I'm doing what's best for Dylan. Should I have tried this or should I have done that ? I also seem to change my mind every 5 minutes about what to do.
> 
> I remember doing this with Matilda, I did my own head in with it. I also found with her with her that brushing seemed to increase the vomit rate, possibly because it left more loose hair that she ingested. I hope things improve soon.


It's horrible, isn't it ? If you were like me you ended up mulling everything over, and over . . . . .and reaching a different conclusion every time!

I've also found that brushing Dylan makes him worse because of the amount of loose hair left behind, however combing does seem more effective at hair removal. There I am, doing it again. One minute I'm saying that Dylan isn't worse at shedding times ( because statistically he isn't  and in the next breath I say that loose hair makes him vomit).

Believe it or not, I've been spoilt and had much less worry with Dylan since he's been on the raw pork than I have during the rest of our time together . For 4 years prior to starting this transition I spent every spare moment researching anything which I thought might help him. I was better for a while after he was referred to Langford because I passed ownership of his problems to their specialists . Since they exhausted their ideas I've been back to feeling the weight of my responsibility to this poor boy who has done nothing to harm anyone.I have to be able to help him because I'm all that he has.


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## chillminx

I feel great sympathy for your situation @Forester. I can imagine it is hard and a constant challenge. From Dylan's POV, I say "thank goodness he has you!" x

I do agree that brushing can often loosen hair, whereas combing seems to just remove the hair that's already loose. IME one of the worst brushes for loosening fur is the Zoom Groom - when I used it on my LH boy he had the worse hairballs he's ever had, in spite of all the combing I did after using the ZG.


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> I feel great sympathy for your situation @Forester. I can imagine it is hard and a constant challenge. From Dylan's POV, I say "thank goodness he has you!" x.


Thank you @chillminx  I will admit that I sometimes find it hard, as well as extremely distressing. I could never do anything different though. To see Dylan a couple of months back, looking better than he's ever done, rewarded me a hundredfold for all my efforts . He truly has the sweetest nature of any cat I've ever known and none of this is his fault.

I do always wonder whether it could all be _my _fault. When I adopted him from CP at approximately 6 months old, his vaccination status was unknown. It is CP's policy to start vaccinations from scratch whenever this is the position. As the vaccinations were paid for by CP I had him done straight away. I had reservations about this, just in case he'd already been vaccinated; however CP's vet assured me that there would be no ill effects should this be the case. CP had suggested that , as Dylan hadn't been neutered when he was found ,they thought it unlikely that he'd been vaccinated either. I do wonder whether these vaccinations overstimulated his immune system and led to this hypersensitivity. If he had already been covered then he'd have had 4 shots before the age of 8 months. After our initial settling in period I fed every food which the Happy Kitty Company had to offer, exposing my lad to pretty much every protein under the sun. Did this sensitise him to pretty much everything? His gut was clearly compromised at the time of his adoption as he was absolutely riddled with worms. It was so bad that he was passing live tapeworms and not just eggs.

Did I unwittingly cause all this? My lovely vet, who also told me that Dylan was in the best possible home , told me that I couldn't have done. I do, however , feel that I could be responsible for it all.


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## Matrod

Now stop blaming yourself @Forester :Stop none of this is your fault. There could have been many things that caused it but certainly not you. Your vet is absolutely correct, he couldn't have wished for a better home, look at how far he's come under your care


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## chillminx

Forester, we do the same thing at the Shelter, recommend that all kittens we take in with an unknown vaccination history are given the full vaccines. We are told by the experts that it will do no harm if it means they end up getting vaccinated twice. But I am unsure whether there have been any studies done, or even any follow-up on how many of these kittens ended up with allergies.

Food allergies in cats are generally regarded by the experts as being caused by feeding the same protein repeatedly, and this may well be the case with Dylan in a prior home, or in the CP shelter. A lot of dry food is fed in shelters, for convenience sake, and dry food (unless it's a guaranteed mono protein) contains several proteins which are suspect allergens.

There is an interesting interview with Dr Jean Hofve and a cat owner about allergies, the causes, and treatment. With your thorough research into resolving Dylan's allergy problems there may not be anything new to you in the report, but you may find it of interest anyway. 

https://www.floppycats.com/food-allergies-in-cats-with-dr-jean-hofve.html

As to why some cats (and humans) develop food allergies and some don't, I don't think there's a clear answer, other than perhaps a genetic susceptibility. I speak as someone who suffers from many food allergies myself, starting with a couple in childhood and gradually developing more in adult life. In my case it can't be anything to do with vaccinations, as I never had any in childhood, not one, having been brought up in a particular religion that does not agree with vaccinating children. Nor did I have any antibiotics as a child, for the same reason.


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## Forester

Thank you for your kind words and continual support @Matrod.

I will never l know the answer to why this has happened to Dylan . All I can do is just keep on doing my best for my lovely boy.


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## Forester

Thank you @chillminx for your comprehensive reply and the link to Dr Jean Hovfe's article on allergies,also for your kind and reassuring words. I have read the article before ( what has been written on allergies that I haven't read ? ) but I will look at it again.

I have seen studies which looked at vaccinations and IBD , rather than allergies, in both cats and humans . Conclusions drawn were mixed, however I think that it is important to look at who financed the studies. I have a feeling that some were carried out by vaccine manufacturers who are unlikely to implicate their own products. Unfortunately I can't put my finger on links to the studies right now. I gave up researching what might have caused Dylan's problems long ago, in order to concentrate on his diet.

There _is _some evidence that the process which causes IBD is transmisable here. https://news.yale.edu/2011/05/12/immune-system-malfunction-may-trigger-inflammatory-bowel-disease; although I was advised by Dylan's first specialist at Langford that he was likely to have a genetic susceptibility. It is interesting ( although not for you!!!!  )that you have so many allergies and sensitivities despite not having been subjected to vaccines/ medicines which are routinely given to many.

Although a Cat's Protection cat , Dylan only spent the minimum 2 weeks in foster, coming to me on the day he became available for re homing. He'd been living on the streets of Monmouth prior to that , hanging around a Chinese Takeaway. I imagine that too much chicken chow mein, and who knows what else, must have taken a toll on his digestive system..

CP fed him on Felix pouches and Purina One dry before he came to me. It was strange that within 3 to 4 weeks of his adoption he was already reacting to proteins such as venison and rabbit which I think it extremely unlikely that he would have had much exposure to before.

--------

To update . Since withdrawing the Purrform Supplement, Mercola probiotics and Phosphatidyl Choline Dylan hasn't been sick. He's also taking his cod liver oil added to his food, one drop per meal, rather than having to be given it in capsules.


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## Matrod

Stress may cause ibd so I wonder if being a stray that could have played a part. One of my previous dogs was a stray & he had ibd & I often wonder if life on the streets had been the cause of it as you say the food they could have eating.


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## Forester

Matrod said:


> Stress may cause ibd so I wonder if being a stray that could have played a part. One of my previous dogs was a stray & he had ibd & I often wonder if life on the streets had been the cause of it as you say the food they could have eating.


I'm sorry to hear that you had a dog with IBD. I really admire you for adopting an animal with health issues. I have to admit that when I was told about Dylan my response was " I don't care what colour or sex it is, just that it's healthy". I laugh when I think about that now. Nevertheless, within an hour of meeting him I could never have surrendered him to anyone.

I do believe that stress plays a part in IBD. I remember buying some Rescue Remedy to try Dylan with. He wouldn't take it , so I did!! Amazingly it did help him. I suspect that me being more relaxed reassured him a little.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you had a dog with IBD. I really admire you for adopting an animal with health issues. I have to admit that when I was told about Dylan my response was " I don't care what colour or sex it is, just that it's healthy". I laugh when I think about that now. Nevertheless, within an hour of meeting him I could never have surrendered him to anyone.
> 
> I do believe that stress plays a part in IBD. I remember buying some Rescue Remedy to try Dylan with. He wouldn't take it , so I did!! Amazingly it did help him. I suspect that me being more relaxed reassured him a little.


I take the cats' rescue remedy as well, when I am having a bad anxiety spell. It helps a little. It helps Mazy cat a lot, during vet trips and visitors.


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## Matrod

Forester said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you had a dog with IBD. I really admire you for adopting an animal with health issues. I have to admit that when I was told about Dylan my response was " I don't care what colour or sex it is, just that it's healthy". I laugh when I think about that now. Nevertheless, within an hour of meeting him I could never have surrendered him to anyone.
> 
> I do believe that stress plays a part in IBD. I remember buying some Rescue Remedy to try Dylan with. He wouldn't take it , so I did!! Amazingly it did help him. I suspect that me being more relaxed reassured him a little.


Well we didn't know that he had those issues at the time but we never regretted adopting him for a second, he was a brilliant dog. Rescue remedy is great, I take it sometimes myself.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I take the cats' rescue remedy as well, when I am having a bad anxiety spell. It helps a little. It helps Mazy cat a lot, during vet trips and visitors.


It's great when we're able to help them by taking something ourselves . If only it was possible to prevent them picking up on our anxiety about them.x


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## Pavonine

Late to reply but I wanted to say that I also like to read about Dylan and how wonderfully you are caring for him. If the thread causes any stress then obviously we would all want you to take a step back, but if it is helpful and therapeutic then please continue, I love hearing about everything. 

I realise this is not an easy journey for you and at times it may seem like he is taking a step backwards, but you have cared for him like nobody else could, who knows where he would be today if he didn’t have your devotion? You did not cause his problems, but he is an incredibly lucky boy that you are trying to fix them and as a result he undoubtedly has a much happier life than he could ever find with somebody else.


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## Forester

Pavonine said:


> Late to reply but I wanted to say that I also like to read about Dylan and how wonderfully you are caring for him. If the thread causes any stress then obviously we would all want you to take a step back, but if it is helpful and therapeutic then please continue, I love hearing about everything.
> 
> I realise this is not an easy journey for you and at times it may seem like he is taking a step backwards, but you have cared for him like nobody else could, who knows where he would be today if he didn't have your devotion? You did not cause his problems, but he is an incredibly lucky boy that you are trying to fix them and as a result he undoubtedly has a much happier life than he could ever find with somebody else.


@Pavonine I apologise for not responding to this post when I was it yesterday evening. I couldn't find the words which I needed, and I'm afraid that I still can't. Sadly I was not blessed with eloquence.

You can have no idea how much your words mean to me. The support I've received on this thread has been like having a best friend here beside me every second of every day. It is lonely having a cat which veterinary medicine seems unable to help and few people understand in the way that you all do. This thread has been like a crutch to support me. I couldn't have done what I have for Dylan without you all behind me. I thank every one of you.


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## Forester

A week has passed since I withdrew the Purrform Supplement, Mercola probiotics and Phosphatidyl Choline from Dylan's diet. He's been sick twice so I have absolutely no idea whether the changes have made any difference at all.

It has been an extremely stressful week for Dylan with all sorts of things happening which may have caused him anxiety. If only I could reassure him that normal service should hopefully be resumed, eventually! Whether domestic events will have exacerbated Dylan's vomiting I really don't know. I'm very good at making excuses for individual vomits ( I've had plenty of practice ) so I try instead to look at the big picture .I'll keep everything as it is now for the next week and then reassess the situation.

On one bright note ( although Dylan wouldn't agree with me on that ) Dylan survived a night without food yet didn't vomit breakfast. For some reason which I've yet to identify,his auto feeder didn't open causing him to miss 2 meals. He went 9 and a half hours, the longest he has *ever *fasted without it resulting in a vomit.

This may seem a strange comment to make however I will be extremely interested in the composition of Dylan's next poo. Hunger is meant to stimulate peristaltic movement, and hair is the last thing to leave a cat's stomach, so will the next poo be a hairy one? I can hardly wait to find out. Does that make me a weirdo? Probably, but I don't care. IMO,anything which leads to me learning more about the machinations of Dylan's digestive system has to assist in my quest to help him.

Whilst I'm here I may as well include another photo of my lovely boy. Here he is illustrating how hard his life can be at times.


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## Forester

Two weeks have passed since I withdrew the PurrForm Complete Supplement, Mercola probiotics and Phosphatidyl Choline from Dylan's diet. I honestly don't know whether the changes have made any difference or not. I'll give it a few more days before deciding on my next move.

If anyone is interested, Dylan's next poo, after the unintentional overnight fast, didn't seem to contain any more hair than his usual offerings. The poo after that wasn't any different either. So much for that theory.

I am continuing to comb Dylan on a daily, if not more frequent ,basis. I'm removing quite a bit of hair, although nowhere near as much as when I first started combing. I'm telling myself that it has to help.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> If anyone is interested, Dylan's next poo, after the unintentional overnight fast, didn't seem to contain any more hair than his usual offerings. The poo after that wasn't any different either. So much for that theory.


It may take longer than two nights to see any difference. When I first discovered Mazy cat was ready for the overnight "fast" and how much it helped her, there were 6 days in a row that she went 12 hours or more without a meal every day. It was unavoidable for reasons I won't go into here. After that 6 days she went 22 days before she vomited again.

I now strive for 8 hours overnight on work nights and 10, at the minimum, on weekends. But prior to that discovery in July 2015, she could not go more than 6 hours between meals.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> It may take longer than two nights to see any difference. When I first discovered Mazy cat was ready for the overnight "fast" and how much it helped her, there were 6 days in a row that she went 12 hours or more without a meal every day. It was unavoidable for reasons I won't go into here. After that 6 days she went 22 days before she vomited again.
> 
> I now strive for 8 hours overnight on work nights and 10, at the minimum, on weekends. But prior to that discovery in July 2015, she could not go more than 6 hours between meals.


I'm _not _trying to introduce an overnight fast.  It was accidental. Dylan generally does not do well with a fast and I figure that I have enough changes going on without introducing this at the moment.

I regret hurrying ( relative term  ) achievement of the full dose of PurrForm Supplement, introducing a new probiotic and adding Phosphatidyl Choline concurrently. It's left me confused as to what's going on .My priority is to get the diet complete, or as complete as I can make it with Dylan not tolerating organs. If only I knew whether he is tolerating the PurrForm Supplement . Could it be that the bad spells since June are due to the Purrform or would they have happened anyway.?????? I know that I could try the vit/min supplement used in the Raw for IBD recipe but it wouldn't complete the diet . Dylan would still be missing the nutrients which are provided by organs but not by his cod liver oil/ taurine.


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## lorilu

{{hug}}


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> {{hug}}


Thanks


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## Forester

I'm becoming more confident with every passing day that Dylan has been reacting to something in his diet. During the first 11 days of August he was sick 5 times, in the following 10 and 3/4 days it has only been once.

He's also looking better again .Recently his coat had become harsher and less shiny, and his colour had been looking slightly tarnished. Now he is back to being my black beauty with a coat which shines like no other. The change in his coat doesn't really make sense. Purrform, clearly contains more nutritionally than calcium carbonate plus taurine plus cod liver oil yet he looks so much better on " my mix". I suppose that it is down to the cod liver oil.

Anyway, I need to establish which supplement has been causing the increased vomiting however I wish that I didn't have to do it. To challenge him with something which I'm expecting to cause him problems feels like such a terrible thing to do . I hate even the idea of it but can't really think of an alternative. 

My suspicion is that the problem ingredient is the Purrform,( although at one point he was doing quite well with 50% Purrform  ). Should I test the Purrform first, or leave it till last ? Should I forget the Purrform and try him with the Raw for IBD vit /min supplement ? With that option I would have some flexibility over exactly what I included.

Part of me thinks that I should test Dylan with the Phosphatidyl Choline first because he's gone so long without it .

If only I was better at making decisions.


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## Forester

Looking at the situation objectively I think that I have little choice other than to test Dylan with the Purrform Supplement first. It is the only way that I'm going to find out whether he's reacting to it. My ( current  ) plan is to start reintroducing it at 25% of the required level. I'll start on Monday as I can't quite bring myself to do it right now. . 

On the plus side, Dylan is now happily eating his food with cod liver oil added so perhaps he will also accept the Purrform Supplement fed that way. It would be so much easier than having to cram it into capsules, although of course I will do that if necessary.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Looking at the situation objectively I think that I have little choice other than to test Dylan with the Purrform Supplement first. It is the only way that I'm going to find out whether he's reacting to it. My ( current  ) plan is to start reintroducing it at 25% of the required level. I'll start on Monday as I can't quite bring myself to do it right now. .
> 
> On the plus side, Dylan is now happily eating his food with cod liver oil added so perhaps he will also accept the Purrform Supplement fed that way. It would be so much easier than having to cram it into capsules, although of course I will do that if necessary.


I'm going to be facing that too, with Jennie. She's been on plain cooked pork for over a month now. I'm getting very nervous about it and almost ready to put her on canned just to give her something balanced. I have some Ziwi Peak venison here. Or try the EZcomplete again.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I'm going to be facing that too, with Jennie. She's been on plain cooked pork for over a month now. I'm getting very nervous about it and almost ready to put her on canned just to give her something balanced. I have some Ziwi Peak venison here. Or try the EZcomplete again.


Try not to panic. Calcium would be the most urgent need, swiftly followed by taurine though she'll also need Vit A pretty soon. What are your long term plans for her? Do you intend to build a diet from scratch ( I wouldn't recommend purely because of the anxiety it causes over missing nutrients ) or are you looking for a premix which suits her? What about Allnutrin. I think that they do one without chicken/ egg.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Try not to panic. Calcium would be the most urgent need, swiftly followed by taurine though she'll also need Vit A pretty soon. What are your long term plans for her? Do you intend to build a diet from scratch ( I wouldn't recommend purely because of the anxiety it causes over missing nutrients ) or are you looking for a premix which suits her? What about Allnutrin. I think that they do one without chicken/ egg.


Alnutrin has one with calcium carbonate instead of egg shell calcium but all formulas contain egg yolk. It's so essential, they all have it. I took her off the EZc because I thought she had developed an intolerance to chicken. Since there's been no improvement, after all this time, I'm going to go ahead to start her back on it, with the cooked pork, very slowly. She hasn't been completely off calcium, she was on the egg shell, but it was suggested to try stopping it to see how she did.

There was no change.

If the EZcomplete makes things even worse, I will stop it of course, and go with the calcium carbonate for now. I won't hear the results of the re-test until next Tuesday..I can't help thinking there was something wrong about the compounded antibiotic, maybe it was dosed wrong. There was no improvement at all on the antibiotic, and the erythromycin is specific for campylobacter.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Alnutrin has one with calcium carbonate instead of egg shell calcium but all formulas contain egg yolk. It's so essential, they all have it. I took her off the EZc because I thought she had developed an intolerance to chicken. Since there's been no improvement, after all this time, I'm going to go ahead to start her back on it, with the cooked pork, very slowly. She hasn't been completely off calcium, she was on the egg shell, but it was suggested to try stopping it to see how she did.
> 
> There was no change.
> 
> If the EZcomplete makes things even worse, I will stop it of course, and go with the calcium carbonate for now. I won't hear the results of the re-test until next Tuesday..I can't help thinking there was something wrong about the compounded antibiotic, maybe it was dosed wrong. There was no improvement at all on the antibiotic, and the erythromycin is specific for campylobacter.


As far as I'm aware the reason why eggs are considered essential is because they are an extremely rich source of Choline. Unlike dogs, cats don't synthesize Choline easily. To do so they need to have an excess of methionine, Vit b12 and folate. If Jennie is unable to tolerate chicken's eggs would she cope with duck or quail eggs? If she can't cope with eggs choline can be provided in the form of choline salts, e. g Choline bitartrate, or by phosphatidyl choline or even lecithin.

Even if Dylan turns out to tolerate the Purrform Supplement I still intend to supplement his diet with Choline. In addition to the Phosphatidyl Choline capsules I'm planning to eventually try him with Sunflower lecithin which is another source .

Maybe it will take a little time after finishing the antibiotics for Jennie to show a clear improvement. If there is no improvement , which I hope will not be the case, then perhaps a different antibiotic might be effective. I know that this research was done in humans but I believe that there have been issues with campylobacter being resistant to erythromycin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2691575/

I am confident that you will find a way to deal with Jennie's issue. No one could be more devoted to their cats than you.


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## Forester

Things are looking up. Dylan has gone two weeks with just one vomit so either I've withdrawn something which was causing him an issue or he's shedding much, much less. I've come out of my panic that he's deteriorating. 

I'd intended to start him with 25% Purrform Supplement from Monday however I've now decided to phase it in over several days. I plucked up courage to make today's food with 10% and I will do the same tomorrow. Monday I will go to 25% .


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## lorilu

Thanks dear friend. Jennie's second culture came back negative, I just heard this morning. She is cured of the campylobacter! And as of yesterday has begun to show some very slight improvement. I was afraid to trust what I was seeing yesterday but am feeling more confident about it today.

Not that she ever acted sick, we all know how subtle cats are but she has an different..air ..about her now that she has not had for some time. She feels better, I can tell.

I'm going to carry on adding the EZc back to her cooked pork and will probably put her through a course of poop pills to help her gut restore itself before returning to raw for her.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Things are looking up. Dylan has gone two weeks with just one vomit so either I've withdrawn something which was causing him an issue or he's shedding much, much less. I've come out of my panic that he's deteriorating.
> 
> I'd intended to start him with 25% Purrform Supplement from Monday however I've now decided to phase it in over several days. I plucked up courage to make today's food with 10% and I will do the same tomorrow. Monday I will go to 25% .


Thanks for the happy update!!!!


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Thanks dear friend. Jennie's second culture came back negative, I just heard this morning. *She is cured of the campylobacter! *And as of yesterday has begun to show some very slight improvement. I was afraid to trust what I was seeing yesterday but am feeling more confident about it today.
> 
> Not that she ever acted sick, we all know how subtle cats are but she has an different..air ..about her now that she has not had for some time. She feels better, I can tell.
> 
> I'm going to carry on adding the EZc back to her cooked pork and will probably put her through a course of poop pills to help her gut restore itself before returning to raw for her.


Fantastic news!!!!!. I hope that this will mark the start of a very rapid recovery.

Have you mentioned the poop pills to your vet? If so, what did she say? I have to admit that I still have them in mind as a possibility for Dylan at some stage, despite my vet's comments.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Have you mentioned the poop pills to your vet? If so, what did she say? I have to admit that I still have them in mind as a possibility for Dylan at some stage, despite my vet's comments.


I forgot to bring it up during our conversation about the culture results. What did your vet say about this treatment?


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I forgot to bring it up during our conversation about the culture results. What did your vet say about this treatment?


I'll message you privately. One of his comments was that he considered that, for Dylan, I'd need to give the pills almost continually to maintain their effect.

Obviously that wouldn't apply to Jennie. His other comment was about cost.


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## Aprilcandles

Forester said:


> We're ploughing on .
> 
> @Aprilcandles , The Mercola probiotics don't appear to have made any difference yet, with the possible exception of poo being slightly more moist ( a good thing ) and maybe slightly more frequent. I wasn't really expecting any rapid change with these anyway as my aim in giving them is to gradually improve the diversity of bacteria in Dylan's gut. I appreciate this this, if it does occur ,could well take many months to happen.
> 
> .


Hi Forester, thank you for the update re Mercola. It is so difficult to tell sometimes whether something is having an effect. I think for now I will stick with the Bioglan as George does seem to be slowly improving- he still has poached white fish but it's now 40% fish and 60% granatapet, which is better than 100% poached fish!!

I also appreciate your updates on Dylan's progress although I haven't been on the forum in a few months. It helps me feel less alone, it can be upsetting and stressful dealing with poorly fur babies as you'll know


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## Forester

Aprilcandles said:


> Hi Forester, thank you for the update re Mercola. It is so difficult to tell sometimes whether something is having an effect. I think for now I will stick with the Bioglan as George does seem to be slowly improving- he still has poached white fish but it's now 40% fish and 60% granatapet, which is better than 100% poached fish!!
> 
> I also appreciate your updates on Dylan's progress although I haven't been on the forum in a few months. It helps me feel less alone, it can be upsetting and stressful dealing with poorly fur babies as you'll know


@Aprilcandles That's wonderful news about George's improvement. I'm sure that you're doing the right thing in sticking with the Bioglan. It is very highly regarded.

Oh yes, I know that feeling of being completely alone . It's so hard when no one else seems to have experienced the difficulties which you're encountering. It's not that you want anyone else to have had the problems; that's the last thing you'd want, but you would like someone to be able to tell you what to do . With regard to my recent dilemma over what part of Dylan's diet to re introduce first, I tried to disregard my emotions and consider how I'd advise someone else in the same position.

Although I don't often post I'm always around if you ever need a shoulder to lean on , or an ear to listen.You only have to send a PM.
Would you mind letting me know how George goes on?


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## Aprilcandles

Forester said:


> @Aprilcandles That's wonderful news about George's improvement. I'm sure that you're doing the right thing in sticking with the Bioglan. It is very highly regarded.


It's blimmin expensive though! He has 1.5 capsules a day and there's hardly any capsules in each box . I have to keep reminding myself that constant trips to the vet are MORE expensive.



Forester said:


> @Aprilcandles Oh yes, I know that feeling of being completely alone . It's so hard when no one else seems to have experienced the difficulties which you're encountering. It's not that you want anyone else to have had the problems; that's the last thing you'd want, but you would like someone to be able to tell you what to do .


If it wasn't for this forum I'd honestly think I was the only one who'd had a cat with chronic digestive problems. My in-laws think I'm completely mad, if they had their way he'd be on Morrison's own brand dry food :Banghead . (They also think it's scandalous that he isn't allowed to free roam, even though we live in the middle of London...). A cat should eat what it's given and be grateful! The problem is that until someone has first hand experience of cleaning up runny poops or washing dirty bottoms, they'll think I'm exaggerating/paranoid/spoiling him.

It also doesn't help that the vets don't know anything about gastro problems! I was told over and over again to give him Royal Canin and Fortiflora 



Forester said:


> @Aprilcandles With regard to my recent dilemma over what part of Dylan's diet to re introduce first, I tried to disregard my emotions and consider how I'd advise someone else in the same position.


This is such such good advice and something I wish I'd done six months ago. I was so upset and stressed that I was just doing anything I could in a complete panic. Trying too many different foods and supplements, changing things too quickly. I was so scared of him not getting enough nutrition when he was little that I was rushing things and making him worse. I had to take a step back and calm down and then start again SLOWLY. It was only then that he started to get better. I'm still increasing his meat/fish ratio in tiny tiny increments. It's so easy to panic when you love them so much but it doesn't help.



Forester said:


> @Aprilcandles Although I don't often post I'm always around if you ever need a shoulder to lean on , or an ear to listen.You only have to send a PM.
> Would you mind letting me know how George goes on?


Thank you so much and I will of course keep you updated on Mr Stinky over here. He's been shedding like crazy and there's fluff everywhere. I find it in my dinner.

I'm so glad things are looking up for Dylan and hope it continues. I don't have any advice, but you're doing so well and I think a lot of people would have given up by now but you haven't. He's so lucky to have you


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## Forester

@Aprilcandles

It's blimmin expensive though! He has 1.5 capsules a day and there's hardly any capsules in each box . I have to keep reminding myself that constant trips to the vet are MORE expensive.

I was giving 2 Bioglan per day when I first started them, then cut to one. The Mercola probiotics are about the same price as I think are most of the Raw for IBD recommended products. I try to take the line that, if it helps I would give every penny that I have for it. This cat is my responsibility , and I could not sleep at night if I didn't do everything in my power for him.

If it wasn't for this forum I'd honestly think I was the only one who'd had a cat with chronic digestive problems. My in-laws think I'm completely mad, if they had their way he'd be on Morrison's own brand dry food :Banghead . (They also think it's scandalous that he isn't allowed to free roam, even though we live in the middle of London...). A cat should eat what it's given and be grateful! The problem is that until someone has first hand experience of cleaning up runny poops or washing dirty bottoms, they'll think I'm exaggerating/paranoid/spoiling him.

You should have seen the look on my butcher's face when I told him that I needed the meat to be shoulder not loin because the cat wouldn't eat loin. I've also had some pretty strange looks when I say that I can go out for lunch on days when OH is at dialysis but I need to be home by 2pm to feed the cat!

On the subject of free roaming, you *do *have the peace of mind that your cat is safe from a world which is not as cat friendly as it used to be!

It also doesn't help that the vets don't know anything about gastro problems! I was told over and over again to give him Royal Canin and Fortiflora 

I had that from vets for years but my current one is very open minded.When I suggested the raw diet he said" Why not, we've tried everything else ? I *do* wish that he could offer me nutritional advice. He say's that I've done an amazing job with Dylan and to carry on doing what I'm doing however I wish that I had access to an animal nutritionist. There again with Dylan's intolerances, it's little use knowing what I ought to feed when what he should have makes him vomit.

This is such such good advice and something I wish I'd done six months ago. I was so upset and stressed that I was just doing anything I could in a complete panic. Trying too many different foods and supplements, changing things too quickly. I was so scared of him not getting enough nutrition when he was little that I was rushing things and making him worse. I had to take a step back and calm down and then start again SLOWLY. It was only then that he started to get better. I'm still increasing his meat/fish ratio in tiny tiny increments. It's so easy to panic when you love them so much but it doesn't help.

Thank you . I've made many more mistakes than you, going round in circles again and again. Personally I think that you're doing a fantastic job with your boy. I made the mistake of not following my own instincts until I'd exhausted all of the ideas that a multitude of vets could come up with. You ARE getting where you want to go even if it is slowly. That's far better than messing things up by trying to go at the speed that you want instead of "listening" to what your cat's symptoms are telling you.

Thank you so much and I will of course keep you updated on Mr Stinky over here. He's been shedding like crazy and there's fluff everywhere. I find it in my dinner.

Hearing how Mr Stinky  progresses will give me, and I'm sure many others, the greatest of pleasure. It is so heartening to see a success story.

I'm so glad things are looking up for Dylan and hope it continues. I don't have any advice, but you're doing so well and I think a lot of people would have given up by now but you haven't. He's so lucky to have you 

Thank you . I'm all that this little cat has so there is no option to give up. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do everything within my power for him.

Apologies for the varying type colours. I hope that you can identify my replies.


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## Forester

I'm now giving 25% of Dylan's meat " Purformed"and we're on day 14 since his last vomit.

He's also eating the PurrForm Supplement mixed in with his meat!!!!!!!!


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## Forester

I should have known that I'd jinx things by telling everyone how long Dylan had gone between vomits. Breakfast came back this morning, accompanied by a huge blade of grass. Oh well, I'll start counting again!


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## lorilu

Mazy cat puked this morning too. With fur. 20 days she went. She's only gone that long once before, 3 years ago. It's when I discovered that she was healed enough for "fasting" periods of 8 -10 hours between meals to help her motility.


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester - I've been reading your thread with interest as we have a small boy who occasionally regurgitates and I am trying to find a pattern (so far, unidentifiable, except possibly with an increase in hair in his poop and vom, along with the delicious grass he eats). He also in April had a horrible time with his poop, which culminated in my starting to give him Bioglan every morning (thank goodness for my Costco membership, it makes it so much more affordable).

Your dedication to Dylan is incredible. I am sure there are many folk out there who would have not persevered as you have, trying to find solutions to all that's been going on. I am sure occasionally you feel swamped with it all - and yet you carry on. I am so inspired by how you are with him, as I frequently feel like I want to give up even thinking about giving Oscar better food, it's just too much of a battle - but seeing your posts makes me realise it is worth it to keep trying.

Currently I am hanging onto giving Oscar only "good" food if he has extras (i.e. elevenses or afternoon tea). I had done well with his food, getting him to about half Bozita/Schmussy and half his favourite junk food and then we went on holiday in June, when his carer (husband's auntie) stopped giving him the better food as she couldn't cope with it. He was also sick once, so she just decided to stop all better food and give him Felix - and lots of it! She also "forgot" to give him his Bioglan several times in that week. So all of that obviously took several weeks to rectify. We now have managed to get him to about 310-340g of wet food a day (he was having close to 500g a day with her, plus 20 Dreamies!!!!), plus he has 6 hairball treats per day - he occasionally has some biscuits (only 5g though, no more and not every day, we gave him some in the hot weather as we were out and about a fair bit and I didn't want to leave wet food out and he can't "do" an auto feeder, that's our next project!). He is a total complete and utter gravy addict. Also whilst we were away, the auntie said he wouldn't eat his meat flavoured Felix, so she gave him all fish flavoured pouches, which then took weeks to get him off and eating some meat flavoured ones again (I resorted to Whiskas, as it's very gravy-laden...and he eats that now). I noticed that without any meat pouches, his poop was very very pale - which I'm sure is normal if his diet is just fish. As you can tell, I am still feeling very sensitive about how she looked after him, despite having a list of things to follow. After that week away, we were away for a couple of nights when she promised she would do as we asked and she didn't. We used to get on very well but I can now barely speak to her, as I've found it so distressing to be so ignored.

Sorry, I've gone off on one! The point of my coming on here was to tell you how brilliantly I think you are doing and now I'm been droning on about Oscar, sorry. I shall continue to read and be inspired by your dedication, thank you for sharing your experience.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Mazy cat puked this morning too. With fur. 20 days she went. She's only gone that long once before, 3 years ago. It's when I discovered that she was healed enough for "fasting" periods of 8 -10 hours between meals to help her motility.


I TOLD YOU that she was still improving, even though you couldn't see it . You really ought to make note of her steps forward as well as those seemingly backward ones. I know that we don't like to build up our hopes in fear of them being dashed at a later date but sometimes _it is good to recognise, and appreciate what you've achieved. _I feel







for you.xx



Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester - I've been reading your thread with interest as we have a small boy who occasionally regurgitates and I am trying to find a pattern (so far, unidentifiable, except possibly with an increase in hair in his poop and vom, along with the delicious grass he eats). He also in April had a horrible time with his poop, which culminated in my starting to give him Bioglan every morning (thank goodness for my Costco membership, it makes it so much more affordable).
> 
> Your dedication to Dylan is incredible. I am sure there are many folk out there who would have not persevered as you have, trying to find solutions to all that's been going on. I am sure occasionally you feel swamped with it all - and yet you carry on. I am so inspired by how you are with him, as I frequently feel like I want to give up even thinking about giving Oscar better food, it's just too much of a battle - but seeing your posts makes me realise it is worth it to keep trying.
> 
> Currently I am hanging onto giving Oscar only "good" food if he has extras (i.e. elevenses or afternoon tea). I had done well with his food, getting him to about half Bozita/Schmussy and half his favourite junk food and then we went on holiday in June, when his carer (husband's auntie) stopped giving him the better food as she couldn't cope with it. He was also sick once, so she just decided to stop all better food and give him Felix - and lots of it! She also "forgot" to give him his Bioglan several times in that week. So all of that obviously took several weeks to rectify. We now have managed to get him to about 310-340g of wet food a day (he was having close to 500g a day with her, plus 20 Dreamies!!!!), plus he has 6 hairball treats per day - he occasionally has some biscuits (only 5g though, no more and not every day, we gave him some in the hot weather as we were out and about a fair bit and I didn't want to leave wet food out and he can't "do" an auto feeder, that's our next project!). He is a total complete and utter gravy addict. Also whilst we were away, the auntie said he wouldn't eat his meat flavoured Felix, so she gave him all fish flavoured pouches, which then took weeks to get him off and eating some meat flavoured ones again (I resorted to Whiskas, as it's very gravy-laden...and he eats that now). I noticed that without any meat pouches, his poop was very very pale - which I'm sure is normal if his diet is just fish. As you can tell, I am still feeling very sensitive about how she looked after him, despite having a list of things to follow. After that week away, we were away for a couple of nights when she promised she would do as we asked and she didn't. We used to get on very well but I can now barely speak to her, as I've found it so distressing to be so ignored.
> 
> Sorry, I've gone off on one! The point of my coming on here was to tell you how brilliantly I think you are doing and now I'm been droning on about Oscar, sorry. I shall continue to read and be inspired by your dedication, thank you for sharing your experience.


Thank you . I'm extremely sorry that I don't have the time at this precise moment to write the reply to this which you deserve, however I will do so as soon as I can.

In the meantime don't worry about pouring out how you feel here. Let it out !!!!!. Anyone who has reached this far into this thread will understand completely. (((( hug )))) ( Even if they didn't it wouldn't matter . I set up this thread in the hope that it might help someone else living with a cat with GI issues )


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## Mrs Funkin

No problem at all @Forester - I gave Oscar his first raw food tonight. I gave him about a teaspoon of raw Aberdeen Angus mince, he didn't like it cooked when I tried him a while ago but he ate it pretty well tonight. I just thought I'd try it, see what he thought. I think he thought it was OK except for the lack of gravy.

I'll stop hijacking the thread now, honestly.


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## Forester

@Mrs Funkin , I apologise for not managing to reply to your post until now. I care for OH 24/7 and tend to snatch my time online 5 minutes at a time, not long enough to write the reply which you deserve.

First , thank you for your kind words. I'm flattered that you approve of how I'm trying to help Dylan. In all honesty I'm only doing what I hope that everyone would do faced with the same situation - the best that I can.That is exactly what you're doing for Oscar, too.He definitely landed on his feet when he found you and your OH.

You may say that you feel like giving up at times, but you don't give up. You put Oscar's needs first. You're doing everything that I'm doing!!!!!! I imagine that your philosophy is the same as mine - you carry on because you can't bear to think of what might happen if you didn't.

Regarding food, and I tried pretty much every commercial food available in the UK for Dylan as well as some from Germany, my advice is to try to stick with single protein foods, particularly those who give very precise details of their ingredients. If you don't know what you're feeding you have very little chance of finding out exactly what Oscar tolerates, and what causes problems. Sensitivities are usually caused by specific proteins.

I understand how annoyed you must have been about Oscar being fed " non authorised" food when you are away. Sometimes other people don't realise how they can mess up a dietary trial by giving forbidden ingredients. Luckily Oscar has you home now so you're back in control over what he eats.With Dylan I've kept to single protein foods pretty much since I adopted him. I impressed on OH that he MUST NOT be allowed to eat, or drink, anything other than his specific food, as even 1 or 2 treats could be enough to undo weeks of good work.

I wouldn't concern yourself too much over Oscar missing his probiotics on a few isolated days. You are back in charge and can ensure that he gets them in future.

Have you seen looked at this website.http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/ . I find it a fabulous source of information/ ideas. There is also a Fb group which is very useful. You don't have to be a raw feeder to participate.

I do understand how you wish to reward Oscar with his Dreamies however can I suggest that you withdraw these from his diet. Freeze dried meats make far better treats as you know exactly what is in them - meat . Meat after all, is what cats evolved to eat!

No, you didn't " go off on one".You just expressed your frustration and concern about Oscar to people who understand. Honestly, Oscar is lucky to have found someone will do everything they can to help him. Keep up the good work @Mrs Funkin


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## Mrs Funkin

Thank you @Forester for your thoughtful reply - I am even more impressed with your dedication now I have learnt you care for your OH as well. I will look more into the raw "thing" I think once my job has changed (in the middle of November) as I will have time to dedicate to doing it properly, not that I feel like I want to raw feed entirely at this point in time. I'm also not a half-hearted kind of a person, so if we were going to do it even some of the time, I need to do it properly! We very rarely give Oscar Dreamies to be honest (maybe once every week, maybe not even that frequently now I'm looking at my log of his food). I've been giving him Cosma snackies, which he enjoys - not every day though. I am also looking into a supplement for ?arthritis as the vet nurse mentioned it when we took Oscar for his senior health check, as she felt his hips. He does have his hairball treats every day though, as he was so troubled by hair back in April, he lost a lot of weight and we ended up taking him to the vet as he had several weeks of horrible poop and some quite horrible regurgitation, there is a definite improvement since he started to have those. Another thing I want to look into more is the lecithin supplement, or even an egg yolk, instead of the hairball treats. Again it's time, with work and house and trying to learn about having our first ever cat (!!), trying to look after an unwell mother in law as well - I know I can get there, I have to be patient, with myself and with Oscar when he feels like he just wants his gravy covered junk food.

There's so much to think about. Goodness. My husband keeps saying that his childhood cat just had a tin of whiskas every day and she was fine  Of course, he's probably right.

Thank you for the link, I will add it to my list of things to read. I will keep my eye on this thread, I am sure (hopeful?) that Oscar is just a bit "sensitive", rather than properly having issues like Dylan and other cats on the thread and I am over-thinking and over-dramatising him again. Honestly, first time cat mothers, total nightmare  I just think that we've rescued him, so I have to try to make his life the best I can make it. We don't know what happened to him before he came to us, he was certainly not in great condition and was pretty underweight. He also was terrified of us coming anywhere near him, so we've had major improvements in the (almost) six months he's been here. He allows me to stroke him properly now, which after he bit me the first morning he was here, I am taking as a win!

Oh and will he eat the cat grass I've grown for him, will he heck. Yummy old grass at the bottom of a tree in the garden, oh yes please. Pppffft! I will *sssshhhhhh* now, I promise. Thanks again, calm tummy thoughts to Dylan.


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## Forester

@Mrs Funkin , I don't do anything special, just the best that I can . Had Dylan tolerated a single complete wet food I'd have been feeding that, just like everyone else on this forum. I've only gone through all this because he doesn't tolerate any commercial foods. If I'm completely honest I don't think that I will ever again feed exclusively commercial food to any cat of mine. I've seen the difference that feeding a balanced ( I wish  ) raw diet can make to a cat, and what's more I know exactly what he's eating. I even know who reared the meat which I feed and what the animals were fed!

I too hope that Oscar is " just sensitive" . One thing i do know is that his new adoptive parents will do everything they can to ensure that he has the best possible diet . He's one lucky boy .

I'm sorry but I laughed at Oscar refusing the cat grass which you'd so lovingly grown for him. Sometimes a cat's enthusiasm for something is inversely proportional to the effort taken to produce it!


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## Forester

Dylan's vomit total for August was 8. This is disappointing considering how well he was doing earlier in the year however it does look as though he was reacting to something in his diet.

September's total so far is 1. I suppose that I will have triggered another vomit with that statement . This seems to be the way it goes. As soon as I start to gain confidence he decides to show me that I have no reason to. 

Dylan's been on 25% Purrform Complete Supplement for the last 12 days so I intend to increase to 50% ( again ! ) from next Monday. I have been suspecting that the PF may have been the cause of his " bad spell" during the summer however I have to increase it if I'm to find out for sure. If I'm honest I don't want to be responsible for making Dylan worse even for a few days/ weeks but there is no alternative. If only I could look at this situation as a scientist would. . . . sadly, I can't . This little cat means everything to me.


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## Paddypaws

No one doubts your motivation or dedication. Remind yourself that all Dylan knows is loving care and devotion. X


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> No one doubts your motivation or dedication. Remind yourself that all Dylan knows is loving care and devotion. X


Thank you @Paddypaws. It does comfort me to know that you feel this way. x

At times when things go wrong it is hard not to feel that I'm failing him. As you may discern from my current tone , he's just been sick again, and I'm fighting back the tears, once more. Other people seem to manage to arrive at a suitable diet with relatively little effort so what am I doing wrong? Please don't answer that, I suspect that no one knows.

Of course, I know that Dylan is "Special"  , and my vet says that I'm doing a brilliant job with him, but there is so much more that I would like to try, if only I could achieve a complete diet as a starting point.

As for Dylan only knowing loving care and devotion, that is his right. No animal should ever get less.


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## Minuscule

Awww @Forester I'm sending lots of love! Don't be sad, you are doing all the right things with Dylan.
It is not your fault he isn't as lucky as other cats on the digestive side. Life isn't always fair, that's all it is. Some cats have no problems, some have easily manageable problems and some have more difficult to manage problems. It also applies to human beings and every living thing.

I just wanted to send my thoughts, I know it's tough. But don't despair and remind yourself all the progress you've done with Dylan so far. xxx


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## Forester

It's O K folks.I'm back on top of things again.

I know that I shouldn't feel knocked back each time Dylan is sick but I just can't help it. The feelings of disappointment don't usually last long but they're always there. Never mind, the battle with IBD goes on , and I , for one, won't be giving up anytime soon.


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## Forester

Minuscule said:


> Awww @Forester I'm sending lots of love! Don't be sad, you are doing all the right things with Dylan.
> It is not your fault he isn't as lucky as other cats on the digestive side. Life isn't always fair, that's all it is. Some cats have no problems, some have easily manageable problems and some have more difficult to manage problems. It also applies to human beings and every living thing.
> 
> I just wanted to send my thoughts, I know it's tough. But don't despair and remind yourself all the progress you've done with Dylan so far. xxx


Thank you @Minuscule. I do appreciate your kind words and encouragement.  At times I do find Dylan's condition difficult to cope with emotionally however every step forward is like a lottery win. We go on, and always will.

xx


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## Mrs Funkin

Well done @Forester, can't keep a good cat owner down you know  I'm sure it's so distressing and feels like a personal knock-back when Dylan is sick but there's nobody better to be looking after him. If he'd found an ordinary person to adopt him, he'd be being sick a lot more than he is. Here's to the next vomit-free days.


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## Forester

Thank you , @Mrs Funkin You've made me laugh, imagining someone holding me down  . I am just an ordinary person but I'm one who will go to great lengths for my animals. I've had 2 horses who were unable to eat grass so I used to cut the grass with single handed shears then remove it from the field before they could go out !.

We go to 50% Purrform tomorrow so it looks as though I'll find out pretty soon whether Dylan is tolerating it or not.


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## Forester

I've withdrawn the Purrform Complete Supplement from Dylan's diet today. He's only been sick once this week so far but he's been looking nauseous after every single meal.

Quite where I go now with his diet I'm not sure. I've asked for advice from my mentor from the Raw for IBD Fb group.

Part of me thinks that I've wasted almost 6 months trying to introduce this supplement however I suppose that I ought to be grateful that Dylan has, at least, during that time, had many nutrients which he wasn't getting otherwise.


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## chillminx

I am sorry to hear of this setback @Forester.  When you were adding individual vitamin and mineral supplements was there anything in particular he had a problem with? I recall you had a problem before in finding an acceptable form of Vit A Dylan could tolerate.


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> I am sorry to hear of this setback @Forester.  When you were adding individual vitamin and mineral supplements was there anything in particular he had a problem with? I recall you had a problem before in finding an acceptable form of Vit A Dylan could tolerate.


@chillminx I've been using this https://www.purrform.co.uk/product/purrform-complete-supplement-50g/. It's a completer which is added to meat without liver or bone. Unfortunately I have no way of knowing exactly what in the supplement he wasn't coping with.

I've gone back to giving pork plus calcium carbonate plus taurine plus cod liver oil . The cod liver oil supplies Dylan's vit A ( and D ). I could use the vitamin /mineral supplement from here http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/how-to-make-chunks-a-balanced-meal.html but it will need adjusting because Dylan isn't having any organs, or eggs. I don't even know whether he will cope with all of the elements in that supplement.

I'm also wondering whether I should try to introduce hydrolysed collagen for the l glutamine next, or maybe try sunflower lecithin for choline. It's a matter of priority. Dylan needs all of these additions to his diet but I don't know which is most urgent.


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## chillminx

I had no luck adding egg yolk lecithin to my longhaired IBD cat's food to help with his hairballs. I introduced it very slowly, over a period of several weeks, but anything beyond the tiniest amount gives him bad diarrhoea. 

I also tried to add a taurine supplement to foods when he eats home cooked meat, but he refused point blank to eat any food with it in, not even the smallest amount.

So I sympathise with you on the issue of being able to add supplements. 

Having followed your journey with Dylan I thought I would try my IBD cats with pork. They refused to eat it raw but were happy to eat it cooked twice a week. I was very happy with this. But when I cooked it next time (lightly fried in goose fat) both of them hardly ate any, and I ended up giving it all to one of the other cats.

Cat diets can be exasperating, a step forward then a step back! I really empathise with you.


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## Mrs Funkin

I obviously have nothing useful to add @Forester - but I just wanted to say I'm sorry that things are so difficult. As you say though, it's not been wasted time, Dylan has had lots of things he's not had before and if you didn't try, you wouldn't know and regretting is probably worse than trying and it not working out. Onwards!


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## Forester

I'm trying to see this as another challenge to rise to rather than as a setback. It's odd how something which on some days would reduce me to absolute despair can, on other days spur me on. I'm on a mission!!!!

@chillminx, Our cat's do like to remind us of who is actually in charge of their diets , don't they? I used to get frustrated if one of mine wouldn't eat the food which I wanted them to .Sadly, with Dylan, I don't have the luxury of allowing him to find a way to refuse something which he tolerates. I have to find a way to get it into him, somehow.

@Mrs Funkin , Thank you for your support. It is appreciated. I'm actually feeling reinvigorated.

I've received advice to " tweak" a vit/ min supplement used in the Raw for IBD Fb group. I have some of the ingredients, just need to source 225mcg capsules potassium iodide, and 10mg manganese ( ideally Twinlabs brand ) with minimum additives. I suspect that's my free time for today taken care of!

Dylan meanwhile is sleeping peacefully in his favourite chair, completely oblivious to the challenge that he's just posed for me. Bless him.:Cat


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> I am sorry to hear of this setback @Forester.  When you were adding individual vitamin and mineral supplements was there anything in particular he had a problem with? I recall you had a problem before in finding an acceptable form of Vit A Dylan could tolerate.


The Vit A problem arose because Dylan doesn't tolerate any liver at all, whether raw, cooked or freeze dried. TBF I only tried FD chicken liver and FD pork liver before I had to get a vit A source into him quickly. I couldn't risk him going without it any longer. It took him several weeks to build up to an acceptable dose of the clo but we got there eventually. In the beginning he struggled with just 1 drop per day but he now copes with a whole capsule and will even eat it mixed into his food.

Choline has been my biggest headache, and I still haven't solved that problem. It's really vital too. He doesn't tolerate chicken or quail eggs. I haven't tried duck eggs but he doesn't tolerate duck so I don't think that the odds are in my favour there. He also doesn't tolerate Choline Bitartrate which is what most people with cats who are sensitive to eggs use. I do have other possibilities for choline,- the Phosphatidyl Choline or sunflower lecithin; however I can only make one change at a time. What would take most people a few days to introduce takes weeks if not months with Dylan. This has been my biggest problem.

I have learnt my lesson about trying to add more that one ingredient at a time. It's just not worth it. I messed up over the Purrform supplement, Dr Mercola probiotics and Phosphatidyl Choline and it's set us right back. I won't be doing that again.

The vit/min supplement that I will be making up does comprise a variety of products however they're just vitamins plus manganese, potassium and iodine . The hope is that , if I go very, very slowly he _should  _be OK. I will be using the brands which have least additives which could trigger an issue.


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## Forester

I'm confident that I was correct in deciding that Dylan was having trouble with the Purrform Supplement. He hasn't been sick since I stopped it and is looking much more comfortable after eating.

All of the ingredients for his vit/ min supplement are either here or on order. The manganese is not due to arrive until next month though. It's coming from the US and I suspect is travelling by sea. I've stuck with brands which are recommended, and have as few unnecessary ingredients as possible, to minimise the chances of Dylan reacting.I also don't want to include anything which will upset the balance of his diet.

I will post details of the ingredients another time, just in case anyone else is ever in a similar position and needs to make the supplement themselves.


----------



## Minuscule

Glad Dylan feels better! Well done  lets hope the replacement supplements arrive asap. Xx


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## Forester

Minuscule said:


> Glad Dylan feels better! Well done  lets hope the replacement supplements arrive asap. Xx


Thank you . Yes, he's looking much more comfortable.

I think that I will probably make up a very small batch of supplement minus the manganese once my dry vit e arrives. I can then get him started with a small dose sometime this week, adding in the manganese once it's here. The manganese doesn't comprise a huge proportion of the ingredients , and I'm starting with just a small dose anyway, so hopefully it won't make too much difference. At least he will get some nutrients which he's missing at the moment.


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## oliviarussian

How’s our Dylan doing?


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> How's our Dylan doing?


Not too badly , thanks for asking. He was sick three times last week which is disappointing but I don't honestly know of anything I can do other than working towards making his diet complete.

Regarding making the diet fully complete I do now have a vit/ min supplement recipe which has been adapted *specifically for Dylan . *I will be making up a small quantity when my supplies of copper and iron arrive. This _should _happen either tomorrow or Thursday.Copper and Iron are being included to make up for the lack of liver in Dylan's food. I will still need to add manganese in a later batch but that's not due to arrive until sometime next month. Dylan's choline intake will still be much lower than it should be however when it is so problematic for him it's probably best dealt with seperately.

I've increased the size of Dylan's meals slightly during the last couple of days as he's dropped a little weight. I wish that I could leave him to eat as much as he would like to at each meal time but unfortunately I can't. If allowed to he would eat until he is sick then fill up until he does it again, and again, and again.


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## Forester

Dylan's personalised vitamin supplement is now made. It has been based on a recipe which has been nutritionally analysed as meeting FEDIAF and AAFCO standards for adult cats for everything except copper and vitamin K.

The original recipe for the vitamin mix designed to balance 22.6 kg meat ( including liver )plus eggshell or calcium hydroxyapatite ( calcium source ) states:-

50,000mg Taurine
3,000mcg Standardised Kelp
100mg Manganese
2000IU Dry vit E
100mg B complex
20,000IU Vit D

The amount of vit/min supplement to use is *always* calculated according to the quantity of meat consumed and not by the weight of the cat, after all we are balancing the nutrients already present in the meat mixture.

Dylan is already receiving some Vit D in his cod liver oil so I checked whether I need to include any in my supplement. He's currently getting 135IU per 125g meat ( well, that's what Holland and Barrett say anyway ! ) . 20,000 IU per 22.6 kg meat works out at 885 IU per Kg making 110.6IU per 125g. His current 135IU therefore satisfies his need for Vit D so I don't need to include it.

Unfortunately because Dylan is missing out on liver, and can only eat pork ( different meats have different nutrient profiles ) it has been decided to add copper and iron to the supplement. I admit to not having calculated these amounts myself . Calculations were done by someone who has experience of formulating premixes.

I've been advised to add 224mg iron and 44mg copper to the above supplement, as well as to substitute potassium iodide ( 2992mcg )for the standardised kelp. The substitution has been made as it was thought that Dylan, being so sensitive, might react to the kelp.

I spent ages researching which ingredients to order for the supplement mix , trying to minimise any additives which might cause Dylan an issue. There are 2 ingredients which are giving me some concern. The Vit B complex contains choline bitartrate which Dylan has already reacted to however the quantity involved is so small that I'm hoping that it won't be an issue. The manganese is also concerning me slightly as , after ordering , I discovered that it contains potato starch. It was a brand which is widely recommended so I have everything crossed that it won't be a problem.

To work out how much supplement I need to add to Dylan's meat I mixed up half of the quantity stated in the recipe. This will balance 11.3 kg meat. I then weighed my supplement and divided the total by 11.3 to obtain a figure for how much supplement to add to 1kg meat.

I would be lying if I said that I wasn't nervous about introducing this supplement. I suppose that my nerves are down to this being our last option since Dylan has reacted to, or is intolerant of, ingredients contained in all of the commercial premixes. I am aware that, if necessary I could break this supplement down into it's components and manipulate each one individually but I fear for how long that would take.

I'll start giving this, at just a proportion of my target amount, tomorrow.:Nailbiting

If anyone would like links to the brands which I've chosen, and the reasoning behind the choices I'm happy to supply.


----------



## Forester

The last few days have been good ones on the vomiting front, though I hope that I haven't just jinxed things. Dylan's last vomit was last Sunday.

My attempts to get my lad to eat more haven't gone quite as well as I'd hoped. Increasing meal sizes hasn't increased his vomiting however it has increased the time he goes between meals. He is therefore still eating exactly the same amount. 

I weighed him this morning and he registered 5.53kg. I'm reasonably happy with that although would like to see a fraction more weight on him. It is a lot better than the 4.5 kg he weighed at the start of this transition though!!!!!


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## Mrs Funkin

I'm so glad that there's been less vomitting, good boy Dylan. Great weight gain too, good stuff. I obviously cannot contribute anything to the complexities of the diet conversation but we have fingers and paws crossed that this new mix works well. 

Oscar says to tell you that it's two weeks today since he's had a regurgitation (and even then that was my fault, as I tried to make him eat a new better food). I am continuing with the "starter and main course" for dinner and supper, which is working well. Breakfast he regulates himself now, by eating it in two or three goes, which pleases me - generally with a little toddle around the garden in-between. I am also trying very hard to stick to elevenses being better food, such as encore. So I am still hanging onto it's just that he's a bit "delicate" in the tummy area.

Keep at it Dylan, you're doing so well and are so lucky to have such a dedicated slave.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> I'm so glad that there's been less vomitting, good boy Dylan. Great weight gain too, good stuff. I obviously cannot contribute anything to the complexities of the diet conversation but we have fingers and paws crossed that this new mix works well.
> 
> Oscar says to tell you that it's two weeks today since he's had a regurgitation (and even then that was my fault, as I tried to make him eat a new better food). I am continuing with the "starter and main course" for dinner and supper, which is working well. Breakfast he regulates himself now, by eating it in two or three goes, which pleases me - generally with a little toddle around the garden in-between. I am also trying very hard to stick to elevenses being better food, such as encore. So I am still hanging onto it's just that he's a bit "delicate" in the tummy area.
> 
> Keep at it Dylan, you're doing so well and are so lucky to have such a dedicated slave.


I apologise, I made a mess of trying to reply to this post one paragraph at a time . Much of the reply then got hidden. I've cut and pasted it below so I hope that you can associate each paragraph with the relevant part of your original post @Mrs Funkin

With Dylan everything is relative. He _did _manage 20 days without a vomit earlier in the year but then we've also had 3 vomits in one day. The weight " gain" is over a period of 16 months but is also a drop from his peak at 5.68. I'm happy with around 5.5kg though especially as he recently started to lose weight again. He did drop to 5.3kg and I was starting to worry again. My default setting is worry but I know that it doesn't do Dylan any good as he picks up on my feelings

.Way hey Oscar , Well done!!!!, and well done Mrs F. Please don't blame yourself for anything which doesn't go according to plan. It's all a learning process and all cats are unique. You're doing an excellent job and have achieved so much with your boy. Oscar has found himself a top grade slave!!!!

Thank you  We plough on with our journey. Dylan honestly is the sweetest cat that I've ever known and my bond with him is something truly special. I feel so sorry for him because none of this is his fault. The least I can do is to give him the best quality of life that I can.


----------



## Forester

I would like to think that Dylan's vomit total for September ( 6 ) shows that we're back to making progress. It compares with 8 vomits during August , and 13 in September last year.
6 is the level that we were at earlier in the year ( March , April , May ). Here's hoping that the downward trend will continue.

Last Saturday I started Dylan with a small proportion of the new vit/ min supplement mixed into his food. Monday morning he was sick although I honestly believe that he was due to vomit anyway. Tuesday morning also started with an incident. I saw him start to retch whilst he was out in his run , however once I got there to clean up the debris , there was no evidence to be found I have a very nasty feeling that he had quickly " recycled" the food :Vomit however , in my record book, no evidence means no vomit so nothing was recorded. 

Dylan did look a bit uncomfortable , at times, during the day on Tuesday so I decided to omit the supplement for a few days then resume at an even lower dose. I'd been finding it almost impossible to measure out a small enough dose of supplement, even using my small weight scales so I've resorted to making a larger batch of food at one time.Hence today I've made up 900g meat with 5% of the target dose of supplement. My grinder has re emerged and the ground meat is being eaten.

If I'm completely honest I'm probably starting again with such a low proportion of vit/min supplement partly to calm my own nerves. It sounds silly but I've felt myself shaking when adding the supplement to the food.


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## lorilu

Nothing you experience when dealing with this sounds silly. It's all just an enormous amount of stress and it's not abnormal for your body to react. xxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Nothing you experience when dealing with this sounds silly. It's all just an enormous amount of stress and it's not abnormal for your body to react. xxxx


Thanks , I do understand why I feel so anxious about this but just wish that I could manage to suppress my feelings. The last thing I want is for Dylan to pick up on my anxiety as I'm sure that it would affect him. I am starting to feel calmer now that he's been having a small amount of supplement for a few days. I barely stop watching him during the 15 minutes after he's eaten, and have done so for the last 5 years, but increasingly find myself studying his reflection in a mirror or peeping through the crack at the side of the door in the hope that he won't realise that I'm watching him.


----------



## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> Thanks , I do understand why I feel so anxious about this but just wish that I could manage to suppress my feelings. The last thing I want is for Dylan to pick up on my anxiety as I'm sure that it would affect him. I am starting to feel calmer now that he's been having a small amount of supplement for a few days. I barely stop watching him during the 15 minutes after he's eaten, and have done so for the last 5 years, but *increasingly find myself studying his reflection in a mirror or peeping through the crack at the side of the door in the hope that he won't realise that I'm watching him.*



I know I shouldn't but that has just made me smile, I can just picture you!!!!  Bless you x


----------



## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> I know I shouldn't but that has just made me smile, I can just picture you!!!!  Bless you x


 Oh , I do dafter things than that during the 15 minute danger periods. At one time Dylan developed a habit of running into his tunnel straight after finishing a meal. He'd cottoned on to the fact that I would then spend 15 minutes rocking the tunnel whilst he lay on his back inside it , as well as stroking his belly and singing to him.


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## Forester

I'm reasonably confident that Dylan is improving again. In the last 3 calendar weeks he's only been sick twice. There was the strange incident of the occasion when he started his countdown, but either aborted lift off or destroyed the evidence , but we're undoubtedly doing much better than we were . 

Dylan has coped with the new customised vit/ min supplement, so far. I'm currently only giving 10% off the target dose but I'm planning to try increasing to 20% from Thursday.

I need to take Dylan for a routine check up with my vet very shortly. Last time we went I was quite apprehensive, expecting my vet to be unhappy when he realised quite how much I'm " experimenting" with components of Dylan's diet. This time I'm much more relaxed. Dylan's diet obviously isn't ideal but he looks absolutely fabulous. 

Recent events have made me look back to how things were shortly after Dylan's referral to Langford. When discussing the biopsy results the specialist tried to be upbeat ,however the outlook for Dylan wasn't looking too good. Now,2 and a half years later, not only is he still here but he seems better than he's been in a long time. . . . . . .touch wood.


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## Matrod

Forester said:


> I'm reasonably confident that Dylan is improving again. In the last 3 calendar weeks he's only been sick twice. There was the strange incident of the occasion when he started his countdown, but either aborted lift off or destroyed the evidence , but we're undoubtedly doing much better than we were .
> 
> Dylan has coped with the new customised vit/ min supplement, so far. I'm currently only giving 10% off the target dose but I'm planning to try increasing to 20% from Thursday.
> 
> I need to take Dylan for a routine check up with my vet very shortly. Last time we went I was quite apprehensive, expecting my vet to be unhappy when he realised quite how much I'm " experimenting" with components of Dylan's diet. This time I'm much more relaxed. Dylan's diet obviously isn't ideal but he looks absolutely fabulous.
> 
> Recent events have made me look back to how things were shortly after Dylan's referral to Langford. When discussing the biopsy results the specialist tried to be upbeat ,however the outlook for Dylan wasn't looking too good. Now,2 and a half years later, not only is he still here but he seems better than he's been in a long time. . . . . . .touch wood.


You should be so proud of yourself, look how far the 2 of you have come! And two sicks in three weeks is great, I really hope things stay on an even keel.


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## Forester

Matrod said:


> You should be so proud of yourseStill, it changes nothinglf, look how far the 2 of you have come! And two sicks in three weeks is great, I really hope things stay on an even keel.


@Matrod you're much too kind . I'm honestly only doing what any responsible slave would do for their master in the same circumstances.Be honest, you'd do exactly the same if you needed to. Had Dylan coped with Macs and Granatapet I'd have been feeding him that and giving little thought to how much better he might be on a raw diet.

I admit that I'm pleased at the obvious improvement brought about by the raw diet, and especially because it has confounded my vet's expectations of what I might achieve. I do believe that Dylan is improving again after his summer " blip" but I fear that I may never get to the stage of being able to reduce his medications significantly.

Typically , following yesterday's upbeat entry, Dylan was sick this morning. It might have been because breakfast was late, or just because it was " due". I will never know. Still, it changes nothing. We march on !!!


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## Forester

I need to bang my head against a wall. I seem to be getting nowhere. I know, I know, Dylan looks great, and he is vomiting less than he was on a wet commercial diet but I just can't seem to make any progress. I've reduced his bespoke vit/ min supplement from 20% of target dose to 10% because he was looking uncomfortable after eating at times. His vomiting was also up slightly ( though I hadn't really given it long enough to decide whether it was a " blip" or a trend ). . How long is it going to take me to get this diet complete ?- don't answer that one. 

This morning I've even considered going back to the PurrForm Supplement. I'm now starting to wonder whether some of his discomfort is down to vit/ min deficiencies because I've been messing about for so long. I have numerous things which I want to try Dylan with but I fear that I'll never get to that stage. If only I could know what is really going on inside him and what the issue ( s) is/ are.

As you may have realised , Dylan was sick in his bed overnight, something which has never happened before. He looked so miserable first thing this morning and wasn't keen on eating at all. Our check up with my vet which was arranged for tomorrow has now been moved to Monday as the particular vet won't be available until then. I know that my vet won't know the answers to my questions ( does anyone? ) .I can't see any point in seeing a different vet beforehand as they won't know any of the history, and it would take 3 weeks for them to read!!!!! We're not meant to be going for advice anyway, just a meds check, but I really could do with some guidance. 

I mention that Dylan looked miserable this morning however as I gazed at him, feeling utter despair, he promptly decided to chase a ball of silver paper round the room, up the hall, and then drop it down the back of the fridge, all at breakneck speed. There are times when I wonder whether I've lost all sense of reason.

I apologise that this diary entry is pretty pointless, though it will allow me to vent. Why, oh why is everything so bl**dy difficult ?

O K I'll crawl back where I came from now. Thanks for listening.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> There are times when I wonder whether I've lost all sense of reason.


I know the exact feeling. No advice just love and support and understanding. xxxxx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I know the exact feeling. No advice just love and support and understanding. xxxxx


Of course you do , and you cope with it much better than I do, and never whinge, unlike me . Maybe I just need to give myself a big kick up the backside!

xxxx


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Of course you do , and you cope with it much better than I do, and *never whinge*, unlike me . Maybe I just need to give myself a big kick up the backside!
> 
> xxxx


Oh yes I do. A lot. Daily. Biggest moaner on the planet, is what I am. xxlovexx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Oh yes I do. A lot. Daily. Biggest moaner on the planet, is what I am. xxlovexx


One of the most self deprecating , maybe. xx


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## Forester

I feel so dejected, as well as frustrated and mentally exhausted .

My heart, or is it my head ( I no longer know whether I'm coming or going ), is telling me that I have to push the addition of this vit/ min supplement on faster. I've checked back in my records to the time when I introduced the cod liver oil to Dylan's diet. It felt , to me , as though it took forever but it was really only 2 or 3 weeks until I got to an acceptable level. It took Dylan a little longer to be really comfortable with it ,however he did eventually adjust. I know that my problem is that I panic as soon as I perceive a slight issue. I may well change my mind again before long but , for now, I've decided to increase the vit/ min again once my current batch of food has been eaten. Maybe things will get worse, who knows however , if I don't try I'm not going to find out. The six months I spent trying to introduce the Purrform Complete Supplement was just too long .

Someone please tell me that this is the right thing to do, or even that , in your opinion it's the wrong thing to do.Any advice would help. I'm so emotionally involved that I can no longer see the proverbial wood for the trees.

@lorilu, when you introduce something new with Mazy cat, how do you determine how quickly to progress? You've worked miracles with her, I'd be over the moon with just a proportion of the progress that you've made.

Thanks to anyone for reading, and for being there.xx


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester - I obviously have nothing useful to add and cannot help but just sending some love and here to remind you to be kind to yourself! You have done incredible things for Dylan, you need to remember that and think what a difference to him you have made. There are very few folk who would have persisted as you have - but in your dejected state, it's hard to remember that. I know it's easy for me to just say that - I've only got a "sensitive tummy" owner to deal with, nothing like you are dealing with. You're doing a wonderful job.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester - I obviously have nothing useful to add and cannot help but just sending some love and here to remind you to be kind to yourself! You have done incredible things for Dylan, you need to remember that and think what a difference to him you have made. There are very few folk who would have persisted as you have - but in your dejected state, it's hard to remember that. I know it's easy for me to just say that - I've only got a "sensitive tummy" owner to deal with, nothing like you are dealing with. You're doing a wonderful job.


Thank you so much @Mrs Funkin  You're showing me that I'm not alone. I'm trying to get some advice from the Raw for IBD group but virtually no one has a cat quite as sensitive as Dylan.

I realise that I'm also asking an almost impossible question ( I've asked for an assessment of whether I'm misinterpreting Dylan's signs of discomfort ) but it's pretty impossible for someone else to say when they can't see him.

I'm wondering whether part of my problem is that I'm with Dylan for 24 hours on 4 days per week and 22 hours on the other days. I watch his every move and organise the little free time I have around his meals. I barely take my eyes off him. He is worth it though !.


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## Forester

The advice that I've received from 2 very experienced members of the Raw for IBD group is to give meds which will control Dylan's nausea and vomiting better. I've been trying to avoid giving more meds due to the extra load they would inevitably place on Dylan's organs . Having been on pred. for a large proportion of his life, as well as having had the cyclosporine for some time his organ's have already taken a hammering.

I have to do something though. Dylan has been sick again this morning, the third time this week so I really don't think that he is coping with the new supplement. I'm wondering whether I should try extra meds , short term, and push through the introduction of some sort of " completer" whilst he's on them . ( Something noticed both my myself , and by Dylan's specialist at Langford, was that he copes badly with any change in diet to start with but will sometimes settle after a while. ) Langford's plan , way back in 2016 , was to give Cerenia for a while whilst changing his diet in the hope that it would get him through his period of adjustment. Sadly , it didn't work because he wouldn't eat at all whilst taking Cerenia.

I'm starting to think that Dylan was actually better with the PurrForm Supplement than he is with his personalised one. With the Purrform we did actually get as far as 50% dose and have him relatively stable at that.

It's looking as though Dylan's " meds check" on Monday has come at a good time. I have no doubt that it won't be just a quick check.


----------



## Forester

Dylan prepared me for our visit to the vets by depositing his breakfast on the kitchen floor.. . . . precisely 10 minutes after he'd eaten it. That was the 6th " return" in the last two weeks and it ensured that I was suitably dispirited before seeing the vet.

On the bright side my vet told me that he was " actually quite impressed" with Dylan's condition. " He's getting the essentials" seemed little consolation to me . *I *know that he's missing out on quite a lot.

My vet wasn't familiar with the use of Ondansetron as I believe that it's rarely prescribed other than in conjunction with chemo. He has however researched it and I should have a months supply to collect tomorrow. I think that I'm going to have another go with the PurrForm Complete Supplement. I just hope that Dylan will eat it mixed into his ground pork. I don't fancy giving 6+capsules of Purrform per day in addition to 5 tablets.

Oh well, I suppose it prevents me getting bored !


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## Mrs Funkin

Well, Ondansetron is definitely the best anti-emetic for human use, so paws crossed it does the trick for Dylan too. Thankfully it's much much cheaper than it used to be, as even only 15 years ago it was prohibitively expensive to be prescribed. I hope it helps the poor little chap out.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well, Ondansetron is definitely the best anti-emetic for human use, so paws crossed it does the trick for Dylan too. Thankfully it's much much cheaper than it used to be, as even only 15 years ago it was prohibitively expensive to be prescribed. I hope it helps the poor little chap out.


Thanks @Mrs Funkin . I know that an anti-emetic is not going to reduce the inflammation in Dylan's gut but, if it can help me to get Dylan's diet complete I will be over the moon. I strongly suspect that we'd both be much more relaxed if only we could get a break not just from the vomiting but from the periods of nausea too. It's not usually the actual level of vomiting which makes me back off with a dietary addition, but the increased frequency of his nauseous spells. I hate seeing him uncomfortable.

My vet informed me that the 8mg tablets are much more cost effective than the 4mg ones . TBH , I couldn't give a flying fig how much the tablets cost. They're for Dylan and Dylan gets what Dylan needs. Petplan should pay anyway ,but even if they don't it won't make any difference.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

My brain is now working overtime, thinking about things like travel sickness bands for cats. Do cats have acupressure points like humans do? I wonder if there would be any help for Dylan in that respect (you've probably already explored it, or maybe don't believe in things like that)?


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> My brain is now working overtime, thinking about things like travel sickness bands for cats. *Do cats have acupressure points like humans do? I wonder if there would be any help for Dylan in that respect (you've probably already explored it, or maybe don't believe in things like that)?*




I confess to never having thought about it.

I have seen acupuncture mentioned in discussions about nausea in cats though I've never seriously considered it due to my inability to travel.( I'm a carer for OH 24/7 ) I'll try researching acupressure with respect to cats though. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## SbanR

Years ago I saw a book that showed the meridians and major acupuncture points for animals. I was led to believe they basically followed along the same pathways of humans meridian


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## Forester

Dylan's vomit total for October was 8, exactly the same as last October and 2 more than in September. Last year I was over the moon with that total, this year not so. My feelings are being influenced not just by the actual vomit tally but by Dylan's increasing episodes of apparent discomfort after eating.

I do now have the Ondansetron, though I'm currently too frightened to start it. I ended up having to get it through a human pharmacy who ordered it in especially for Dylan. Guidance regarding the dosage varies immensely. I gather that those who recommended this drug to me use it at half the dose suggested by my vet, or rather half the dose but at 12 hour intervals. I'm planning to start with the lower dose, particularly as the pharmacist informed me that this is a very powerful drug ( I'm not sure whether that reassures me or has the opposite effect ! ) Anyway I'll start Monday morning so it will be easier to get hold of a vet if I need one in a hurry.

In the meantime , I've made up Dylan's next ( half sized ) batch of food with 10% of the PurrForm Supplement dose and added in 90% of my calcium, taurine, cod liver oil combination. I'll hopefully move to 20% PurrForm dose on Monday. I plan to try to get this reintroduction done much more quickly than the first attempt, using the Ondansetron to help keep Dylan comfortable. I have no idea how long I can use the Ondansetron for . I've only seen references to it being used to prevent nausea associated with chemotherapy, or surgery, or alternated with Cerenia. Unfortunately Dylan doesn't do well with Cerenia as he refuses to eat at all when taking it. 

Once again I'm thinking that my own anxiety about Dylan may be making him worse. After my vet visit on Monday I felt a little more positive than in recent days because the Ondansetron provides another possible tool in this battle with Dylan's IBD. Dylan has also been noticeably more relaxed.


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Years ago I saw a book that showed the meridians and major acupuncture points for animals. I was led to believe they basically followed along the same pathways of humans meridian


Thanks SbanR . I need to do some more research.


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## Mrs Funkin

I have seen Ondansetron be a wonder drug in some of my women with hyperemesis. I hope that you are able to sort out the appropriate dose and also that you feel able to give it to Dylan. Paws crossed.


----------



## Forester

For the last two days I've been feeding Dylan's pork mixed with 10% of his PurrForm supplement requirement. He's been eating it well ( When I tried this previously he refused to eat the meat so I had to give the supplement inside multiple gel caps ). He also hasn't been sick. I have a little more of this meat/ PurrForm mixture then will move to 20 % of the Purrform dose.

I also plan to start giving the Ondansetron tomorrow. I'll give 1mg in the morning placed inside a capsule into which I've also placed his a.m. pred.dose. I'll feel happier starting with 1mg then increasing as necessary. :Nailbiting


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## Mrs Funkin

Here's hoping it goes well for you Dylan. Let us know @Forester  Good luck!


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Here's hoping it goes well for you Dylan. Let us know @Forester  Good luck!


Thank you, @Mrs Funkin .Your good wishes are greatly appreciated.

I gave Dylan 1mg ondansetron this morning an hour before his breakfast. He hasn't been sick . His appetite hasn't been particularly good so far today but it's improved as the day has gone on. I intend to stick with 1mg , even if he's sick, until I can see that it's not making him constipated. Being raw fed he tends to poo every 2 -3 days .​


----------



## Forester

I spoke too soon. Dylan has just been sick. That will teach me to get too confident that we're going to get a vomit free day.

It is quite unusual for him to vomit during the evening, although interestingly he did it regularly back in 2014 - when I gave him something which helped with the morning vomiting. I'm thinking that twice daily could be the best dosing interval for him though I don't want to go to that till I know that he's not going to get bunged up. ( constipation is a listed side effect of Ondansetron ). We don't need constipation to add to our problems.

I desperately hope that this new drug will help me to get Dylan onto a complete diet ,. . . . . and that he'll adjust to all of his dietary ingredients.


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## Mrs Funkin

Yes, ondansetron has a comparatively short half life @Forester - so potentially the twice daily is the way forward but I understand you wanting to balance the chance of constipation with the benefit of not vomiting. Come on Dylan  you can do it.

Speaking of speaking too soon, I was all happy as we'd had no regurgitation in 7 weeks and on Saturday twice before 7.30am. Luckily in the second was a hairball, so I'm hopeful it was all to do with that rather than anything more sinister. Pride comes before a fall and all that...


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## Mrs Funkin

How has Dylan done today @Forester ? Hopefully no vomiting for the lovely boy.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> How has Dylan done today @Forester ? Hopefully no vomiting for the lovely boy.


We're vomit free today , or maybe I should say vomit free so far. Dylan eats anything from 6 - 10 times per day so we still have plenty of time for an unwanted " gift". I gave 1mg Ondansetron again this morning ( will increase to 2mg once he's pooed ) and he did look " a bit dodgy " ( technical term ) for a while although he didn't actually produce .

I'm so sorry to hear that Oscar has broken his long run without regurgitation.. It does sound as though the hairball was responsible.

I'm sorry that I'm not up to speed with Oscar's story but has he had an ultrasound? I'm pretty sure that you will have raised his dishes but have you ever tried raising then really high? A vet once suggested to me that I feed Dylan on a large step so that his body remained almost vertical whilst he ate. The vet was under the impression that he was regurgitating however he vomits which is a completely different scenario..

They do like to keep us on our toes. .


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh excellent, that seems positive (so far!) for the day, hurrah. Good stuff Dylan. I fully understand the looking "a bit dodgy" thing! I'm so glad if you get to midnight vomit-free. 

Oscar unfortunately will not eat if his bowl isn't on the floor! Even when he has treats, he isn't keen to stretch up for them. I have tried several heights of things to put his bowls on but nope, he just won't eat if they are raised. We've had nothing regurgitated since Saturday morning, I really do think it was the pesky hairball. I don't mind so much if there's a reason for it - I'd want to get that out of my tummy too. It's difficult because we have no idea what he was like in his previous home in terms of his health. Husband thinks I'm daft as I keep a daily diary of Oscar's food, wees, poops, vomits, treatments and weight. Ah well  Anyway, this isn't about Oscar, it's about Dylan! I'll shut up. 

Paws crossed for another good day for your boy tomorrow


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh excellent, that seems positive (so far!) for the day, hurrah. Good stuff Dylan. I fully understand the looking "a bit dodgy" thing! I'm so glad if you get to midnight vomit-free.
> 
> Oscar unfortunately will not eat if his bowl isn't on the floor! Even when he has treats, he isn't keen to stretch up for them. I have tried several heights of things to put his bowls on but nope, he just won't eat if they are raised. We've had nothing regurgitated since Saturday morning, I really do think it was the pesky hairball. I don't mind so much if there's a reason for it - I'd want to get that out of my tummy too. It's difficult because we have no idea what he was like in his previous home in terms of his health. Husband thinks I'm daft as I keep a daily diary of Oscar's food, wees, poops, vomits, treatments and weight. Ah well  Anyway, this isn't about Oscar, it's about Dylan! I'll shut up.
> 
> Paws crossed for another good day for your boy tomorrow


Ahh, I understand. Oscar likes to do things on his terms only, bless him.

Don't put yourself down Mrs F. Those records of yours could be very useful one day! TBH they sound very like mine, and mine go back to 9/1/14. Incidentally when Dylan was referred to Langford I sent colour coded charts detailing vomiting alongside medication, vomiting alongside food, and vomiting alongside events perceived to be stressful, as well as about 10 pages of " observations". His Specialist told my vet that she'd never before received such detailed records, and that she was very grateful for them.

This thread is about transitioning a cat with complicated IBD to a fully complete raw diet , but it also aims to help anyone experiencing similar " difficulties".


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## lorilu

Mrs Funkin said:


> Husband thinks I'm daft as I keep a daily diary of Oscar's food, wees, poops, vomits, treatments and weight


Pfft. I've been keeping a cat journal since 1986, when my first cat (as an adult, not counting childhood cats) developed asthma. It's just good common sense.


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## Forester

Why does every attempt to solve a problem cause even more of them ? We have poo today, but it came in 4 instalments about 1/2 an hour apart. Oh, and Dylan was sick again yesterday evening. 

I'm leaning towards giving another 1mg Ondansetron this evening but still concerned about it bunging him up. I do have some lactulose that I could give but I don't want him to get reliant on that. Added to this Dylan's appetite has reduced considerably , although he's eating his overnight meals before I get up. I had to resort to a little fortiflora during the daytime yesterday.

I've forgotten what it was like to have a cat who you could feed " normally ".

I have been thinking about the PurrForm Complete Supplement and decided that if I can only get Dylan to eat a proportion of his ration for the time being it will be better than nothing.


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## lorilu

{{hug}}


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> {{hug}}


Thanks  Right now I have a strong urge to stand in the middle of the woods and SCREAM.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Thanks  Right now I have a strong urge to stand in the middle of the woods and SCREAM.


Do it.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Do it.


Oh , that's actually made me laugh. I do still feel tempted but there are so many dog walkers/ horse riders/ cyclists about that I'm concerned that I'd get carried away, . . .literally!. Then who would care for my handsome boy, as well as tell him that he's the most wonderful cat in the world, worth every one of the zillions of tears that I've shed over him.


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester I'm sorry it's all become even more of a balancing act. Perhaps the poop is reduced as his food intake has also reduced? The ondansetron may be more effective if he has it twice a day, it's built for that in humans (I know, Dylan isn't a human). Of course, I am not qualified to advise on cat medications, I'm just thinking aloud really.

I reckon a scream-fest wouldn't be a bad idea. Let out the pent up anger and distress, send it away into the open air


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## Forester

@Mrs Funkin . I'm planning to move to giving the ondansetron twice daily from tomorrow morning. I did consider changing from this evening but it makes more sense to do it tomorrow due to the position I'm at with splitting tablets.

Dylan has just had another " dodgy spell" when I thought he looked nauseous. Luckily it came to nothing . I'm guessing that me following him, brandishing his nail clippers ,might have been sufficient distraction. I do feel bad for doing it but it's never failed to work( I'm a bad slave ). He only needs to be distracted for a couple of minutes .90% of his vomits occur 10 minutes after he's eaten, the other 10% between minute 5 and minute 10.

As for the scream fest . . . . I cleaned the oven instead , and have almost scrubbed the shelves away! I thought that I channel my frustrations in a useful way.


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## Mrs Funkin

How did Dylan get on today @Forester ? Hopefully you both had a good day, I've been thinking lots you both.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> How did Dylan get on today @Forester ? Hopefully you both had a good day, I've been thinking lots you both.


Thank you for thinking of us Mrs F . I _almost _posted yesterday evening to say that things were looking a little brighter but decided that it might be tempting fate. I have a habit of opening my big mouth to say that we're making progress only for Dylan to promptly assure me that we're not.

Yesterday Dylan had 2mg Ondansetron in 2 doses, ate well and wasn't sick. This morning he's pooed , yipee ( it doesn't take much to make me happy ) then promptly puked. Now he's clearly not feeling like eating .

I know that I'm not giving anywhere near the Ondansetron dose that my vet prescribed ( 4mg in 1 dose ) but I'd rather proceed with caution. We *do not need *more enema's. I find them extremely traumatic, not to mention how poor Dylan must feel about them. Imagine having a stranger do that to you ! . The puking is bad enough.

I'm now giving 25% Purrform Complete Supplement. I've also increased the fat content of Dylan's food a little to help prevent constipation. I intend to increase it a little more with the next batch as I'd like to put the Ondansetron to 2 x 2mg per day in the hope that the increased dose might be more effective.

Hey ho. Life is never dull with Dylan around , bless him.


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## Forester

@lorilu I've just giggled to myself imagining what a stranger would think of my entries in Dylan's official diary. I'm now recording not just the production of poo but the size of each offering. Today's entry includes :

1/2" overnight + (1 and 1/2") x2 +1"+1/2" 8am.

:Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious

Is this enough to get me committed?


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## Mrs Funkin

I think the key is to hurry slowly. Enemas are no fun for people, who know what’s happening and can have explanations and understanding as to why it’s required, so goodness knows how distressing it must be for an animal. 

Onwards!


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> @lorilu I've just giggled to myself imagining what a stranger would think of my entries in Dylan's official diary. I'm now recording not just the production of poo but the size of each offering. Today's entry includes :
> 
> 1/2" overnight + (1 and 1/2") x2 +1"+1/2" 8am.
> 
> :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious
> 
> Is this enough to get me committed?


If it is, count me in. I've been including details like that forever. 

Incidentally puking after pooping can indicate some constipation (straining creating too much muscle contraction for example) so it's good you are upping his fat a little bit. I know you know this but mention it for anyone else reading.


----------



## lorilu

Mrs Funkin said:


> I think the key is to hurry slowly. Enemas are no fun for people, who know what's happening and can have explanations and understanding as to why it's required, so goodness knows how distressing it must be for an animal.
> 
> Onwards!


I used to have to give them to my tiny girl with megacolon. (using a special preparation from the vet and being trained by the vet I want to clarify) Of course I told her all about why it was happening, and she was so used to being messed with by then it was really just more of the same to her. But I know what you mean, we worry so much about having to do things to them that they just don't understand.

In many cases they do eventually make a connection to what you are doing and how they feel after. My little girl mentioned above, for instance was already on sub q fluids, had been for several years and in the beginning it was so stressful for both of us. But after about two months she made the connection between feeling better and getting the fluids, and after that she accepted it as matter of course.

Another example is my current girl with cancer. She hates getting the gabapentin squirted into her mouth but it only took her a few days to realize that nasty event three times a day keeps her comfortable, and now she starts asking for it a few minutes before the 8 hours mark. She still hates it, but she knows it helps her.

I always, always explain to them what I am doing and why.. And I talk about it with them at other times as well. They listen and somehow do start to understand. I am sure of it.


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## Mrs Funkin

I really hope they do @lorilu - that's good to read your experiences, thank you. I worry all the time that I'm doing the wrong thing but I do talk to Oscar all the time - and he absolutely talks back to me  I shall include explanations of his flea and worm treatments from now on too.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> I think the key is to hurry slowly. Enemas are no fun for people, who know what's happening and can have explanations and understanding as to why it's required, so goodness knows how distressing it must be for an animal.
> 
> Onwards!


Everything with Dylan is a very delicate balancing act. Yes , I agree with you @Mrs Funkin that the enema's must be very distressing for him. He's had 2 several years apart. At least with his vomiting he knows what is going to happen.

@lorilu. We can share a padded cell.  It would be good to have like minded company.

I couldn't " like" your other post because of the awful situation you are in but I do appreciate the point you were making.

I did immediately make a connection between the poo and the puke hence I've just been shopping for some belly pork to mince in with Dylan's current batch of food. Of course it will put the calcium : phosphorous balance out ( as well as everything else ) but it will only be for a couple of days .I will include more fat in the next batch. If I can, I want to get Dylan's poo a little softer before I increase the Ondansetron again.

Dylan's vomit total for November already stands at 5 :Arghh, and it's only the 10th of the month. All sorts of scenarios are going through my mind.

Onwards indeed. TBH I feel more like singing " two wheels on my wagon" , but it won't help Dylan. I will go on so long as this little chap still has quality of life.


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## lorilu

@Forester I read something just now that made me wonder if you could get injectable (sub q) ondansetron instead?


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> @Forester I read something just now that made me wonder if you could get injectable (sub q) ondansetron instead?


TBH That's not somewhere I would want to go at the moment though I do appreciate you suggesting it . Dylan is easy to pill, especially as I'm combining all of his tablets into 2 empty gel caps which I give morning and evening. The gel caps get coated in butter and slide down a treat.

I could easily dose more frequently if necessary although splitting the tablets accurately isn't easy . I have 8mg tablets which I'm dividing into 8 , although ultimately expect to divide into quarters.

I feel that my poor boy is going through enough without me sticking needles in him. I used to inject one of my horses and I absolutely hated doing it . My technique probably wouldn't be the best.


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## chillminx

@Forester - you may have already read this informative study on the use of Odansetron for cats:-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059788/

But I was interested to read the following :

_"Based on the results of this study, ondansetron administered subcutaneously to healthy cats is more bioavailable, has a longer t1/2 λ, and maintains therapeutic concentrations longer than oral administration and may provide owners a welcome alternative to oral administration in cats with chronic disease."
_
I understand you're not keen to administer injections, but giving it SubQ would be easier than an ordinary injection. Dylan would barely feel it e.g. in the scruff.


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## Forester

chillminx said:


> @Forester - you may have already read this informative study on the use of Odansetron for cats:-
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059788/
> 
> But I was interested to read the following :
> 
> _"Based on the results of this study, ondansetron administered subcutaneously to healthy cats is more bioavailable, has a longer t1/2 λ, and maintains therapeutic concentrations longer than oral administration and may provide owners a welcome alternative to oral administration in cats with chronic disease."
> _
> I understand you're not keen to administer injections, but giving it SubQ would be easier than an ordinary injection. Dylan would barely feel it e.g. in the scruff.


Thank you .I will keep that in mind, @chillminx. I have read the article but it is always helpful to revisit .

Getting hold of the orally administered form of Ondansetron wasn't easy for my vet. The veterinary supplier could only supply at an extortionate cost so we obtained it through Boots who had to get it in specifically for Dylan. I imagine that getting the injectable version would be even more difficult to source.

The people who suggested I try Ondansetron both use it in tablet form administered either 2 or 3 times daily, so I'm hopeful that I'll eventually find a dose/ frequency which will help Dylan. If I do decide to continue with the Ondansetron I will discuss which method of administration is most suitable with my vet. At the moment I have 120 days worth of tablets at the current dose so it will be some time before I need fresh supplies.


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## Mrs Funkin

Is the subcut aimed more at cats who are having ondansetron due to chemo, who wouldn't necessarily be able to swallow well? I get the impression from reading around that that is the case but I may well be wrong. The study you linked to is really interesting @chillminx as it's six purpose-bred cats, so I guess they can see the pharmacokinetics but not the actual real life application and whether it helps a cat who feels nauseous? Interesting as well to have a study based on such a small sample size, it's odd to me who is used to reading studies with hundreds (or more) of participants. Just thinking aloud...

I think once the dose is larger, Dylan may really feel the benefits of the Ondansetron. It works so brilliantly in humans, I have great hopes for it with your boy @Forester.


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## Forester

@Mrs Funkin , As far as I understand it that study was aimed just at looking at the relative effectiveness of different methods of dosing ondansetron for cats. They were just considering the levels of the drug present in the blood of the cats at different time intervals.

I can understand from this study why my vet may have chosen to suggest a dose of 4mg ondansetron for Dylan once daily , though he said that I might have to go to twice. This dose seemed somewhat high to me when I know that others use 2mg twice daily. I've even seen 1mg twice daily mentioned on Tanya's CKD website. I gather from the leaflet enclosed with the tablets that 4mg is the dose for a child undergoing chemotherapy . This seems an awful lot for Dylan even though bioavailability in cats is nowhere near the level it is in humans. My concern at the moment is that I do not want Dylan to become constipated. He usually poos every 2 to 3 days even without giving this medication.

I think that increasing the proportion of fat in Dylan's food may be making a small difference although it is obviously too soon to be sure. He produced a small poo this morning in addition to the huge amount he presented to me yesterday.


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## Forester

I forgot to say that my current plan is to do another 36 hours giving 1mg ondansetron twice daily and then move to 2mg twice daily.


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## Forester

Dylan hasn't been sick or looked nauseous since Saturday so I've stuck with 1mg ondansetron twice daily for now. He produced a tiny amount of poo on each of Monday and Tuesday followed by a full ration this morning. 

I'm about to start him on food comprising 33% PurrFormed meat, 67% pork + limestone flour + taurine + cod liver oil.


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## Mrs Funkin

That is totally brilliant news @Forester - great stuff Dylan! I hope it continues, I'm so delighted to read this


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan hasn't been sick or looked nauseous since Saturday so I've stuck with 1mg ondansetron twice daily for now. He produced a tiny amount of poo on each of Monday and Tuesday followed by a full ration this morning.
> 
> I'm about to start him on food comprising 33% PurrFormed meat, 67% pork + limestone flour + taurine + cod liver oil.


Yay! All paws crossed.


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## TriTri

My paws are crossed too


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> That is totally brilliant news @Forester - great stuff Dylan! I hope it continues, I'm so delighted to read this





lorilu said:


> Yay! All paws crossed.





TriTri said:


> My paws are crossed too


Thank you all for your good wishes. It does help me to know that you're all routing for us. 

I am cautiously optimistic that the ondansetron will improve Dylan's quality of life. I know that it won't reduce the inflammation in Dylan's gut per se however I often wonder whether the action of vomiting makes his system more likely to vomit again. When I think of the force required to expel his food , well, it can't do his poor gut, stomach. oesophaegus any good can it?

Dylan currently hasn't been sick since last Saturday. He's not eating very well during the daytime but is consuming most of his overnight meals. I'm still giving 1mg ondansetron twice daily.

This being Dylan there is a fly in the ointment which has tempered my optimism over the last few days. On Wednesday I think that I saw a (one ) spot of blood on the outside of his poop however I'm not 100% sure that it was blood - though what else could it have been ???? My first reaction was to get the first available appointment with my vet however I decided to wait to see whether it happens again.I could have been wrong about what I saw. Litter tray clearance now involves latex gloves , and a magnifying glass. Yesterday's poop was free of any hint of anything red but did contain a lot of hair. Today has not yielded poop at all. You can rest assured that I'm on high alert and will be off to the vets , complete with Dylan and a present for the vet (wrapped in a plastic bag) should I find another suspicious looking offering.

We're about to move to 50% PurrFormed meat, 50% my basic mix.


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## Forester

Dylan presented me with a small quantity of poo this morning which looked pretty good, lots of hair and no sign of blood. Unfortunately he also vomited yesterday evening although that could be explained by a large ( for Dylan ) clump of hair.


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## Mrs Funkin

It seems there’s a lot of hairball vomiting going on at the moment, must be the weather changes. I kind of don’t mind that, as there is an easy to see reason. Oscar has also been doing the hairy poop, so I concur with your hairball theory for Dylan. Glad there’s been no more evidence of blood, perhaps a little bit from irritation when he did a few poops close together? Keep at it Dylan, you’re doing so well.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> It seems there's a lot of hairball vomiting going on at the moment, must be the weather changes. I kind of don't mind that, as there is an easy to see reason. Oscar has also been doing the hairy poop, so I concur with your hairball theory for Dylan. Glad there's been no more evidence of blood, perhaps a little bit from irritation when he did a few poops close together? Keep at it Dylan, you're doing so well.


I agree that it is good to be able to explain why a particular vomit has occurred. I don't find it a huge consolation though because , particularly with a short haired cat , hair _shouldn't _cause a problem; or not on a regular basis anyway. A healthy feline digestive tract *should *be able to cope with any hair ingested. Hairy poop , however, makes me excited. I know that Dylan's digestive tract is in a pretty bad way but clumps of hair in his poop show an improvement over where we were before I started this transition to raw. Before going raw he hadn't had hair in his poop for quite some time. It all exited through the front door.

I'm extremely relieved to have seen no further spots of blood . ( understatement of the century) and I remain on high alert. If there is any more Dylan will be off to see his favourite vet without delay.

It's excellent news to hear that Oscar has hairy poop . Well done Oscar!!!!!!


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## Forester

The ondansetron is making a massive difference to Dylan. I'm happy that he's now clearly very much more comfortable after eating than he was previously, but sad that I hadn't realised quite how often he was feeling nauseous .I'm still giving 1mg twice daily and plan to stay at this dose unless nausea increases again. 

Dylan's poop is still pretty dry ( more so than before starting the ondansetron ) but I haven't seen any more traces of blood. Oh , and last Friday's vomit is the only one to happen since 11th Nov.

I'm currently feeding pork containing 50% of Dylan's PurrForm Supplement requirement ( plus calcium carbonate, taurine and cod liver oil). Tomorrow we move to 67% PurrForm. Dylan isn't eating with his usual enthusiasm so I suspect that he's not too keen on the Purrform. That's not really surprising considering that, in the Spring , he wouldn't touch it at all unless I gave it inside capsules. I don't really want to go back to giving the PurrForm in capsules if I can possibly avoid it.


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## Mrs Funkin

@Forester this is wonderful to read. I'm so glad that it's helping your lovely boy and it's amazing you can actually see the difference in him after eating. Now Dylan, if you would just eat your food with a bit more gusto, there would be an even more delighted slave. I'm really so pleased for you both, hopefully the dry poop won't cause too much of an issue. I think it's really good progress though, well done for persevering.


----------



## Forester

Thank you for your kind words @Mrs Funkin, as well as for the encouragement you gave me prior to starting Dylan on the ondansetron.The difference in Dylan after eating has been incredible. He's been eating ,then retreating to his chair and immediately lying flat before falling asleep straight away. Previously he would sit in a loaf position for 10 minutes before lying flat. It doesn't sound a major difference but I can see how much more comfortable he is.

With Dylan appearing to be a pretty unique case, bless him, I spend much of my time wondering what to do for the best. I will continue to persevere whilst he has quality of life, there is no alternative. I could never forgive myself if didn't do everything within my power to help him. Poor boy, he's done nothing to deserve any of this . He remains the most gentle, sweet-natured , affectionate cat I've ever known despite the terrible hand life has dealt him. There's never a day when I don't admire his fortitude. My heart breaks for him just a little bit more with each passing day.:Arghh

O K , I'll fight back my tears yet again ,gird up my loins and continue with our diary.

Dylan is now on 67% PurrForm but has looked slightly nauseous at times during the last 24 hours. I could increase the ondansetron but, with his poo being so dry and hard, as well as coming in instalments again, I think that I'll continue at this level for a while longer, in the hope that his system adjusts. After all ,we've gone from 33% to 67% in the space of a week.I don't want to push things too quickly after getting this far.

I've left a message for my vet telling him how the ondansetron has made such a huge difference to Dylan, and at a much lower dose than was originally suggested. Who knows, maybe other cats will now be given the opportunity to benefit from this drug as a result of me trying it with Dylan.

Dylan doesn't seem to be eating too well, or at least, not during the daytime however I weighed him yesterday. He is 5.49 kg - exactly the same as he was at the end of August ! Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, or , more likely ,the higher fat content in the food meaning that he needs less! [/QUOTE]


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## Forester

I've checked back through Dylan's records for 2018 and he's _exactly _the same weight as he was in January. It just goes to show how perception of a situation is affected by one's emotions.

We're now on day 9 since the last vomit. It looks as though November's tally won't be quite as dreadful as I'd feared.My little man has also been showing me how much he's enjoying life. Not only has he been playing " wall of death" by running up the doors to the fridge freezer, but overnight he discovered a bag containing 3 extra strong catnip mice which were supposed to go into presents. Needless to say I now have a very stoned cat !


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## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> I've checked back through Dylan's records for 2018 and he's _exactly _the same weight as he was in January. It just goes to show how perception of a situation is affected by one's emotions.
> 
> We're now on day 9 since the last vomit. It looks as though November's tally won't be quite as dreadful as I'd feared.My little man has also been showing me how much he's enjoying life. Not only has he been playing " wall of death" by running up the doors to the fridge freezer, but overnight he discovered a bag containing 3 extra strong catnip mice which were supposed to go into presents. Needless to say I now have a very stoned cat !


Atta Boy Dylan!!!!!


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester im so so pleased for you and your furry boy. Nausea is so debilitating - I'm glad my encouragement helped a little, I know I've no experience with furry users, only female human ones but wow, it's brilliant  I loved reading about him playing wall of death and hunting catnip mice. Just brilliant, long may it continue. Onwards lovely Dylan xx


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## Forester

@Mrs Funkin ,thank you. Your encouragement over the ondansetron helped *a lot!* Before your input I felt that it would be just one more medication which would raise my hopes only for them to be dashed within just a few days. As it is, it's improved my lad's quality of life immensely. ( not to mention saving my sanity ).

If you're ever looking for something potent to give extra excitement to Oscar , Dylan thoroughly recommends these mice.

https://www.naturalpet-toy.co.uk/cats/catnip-toys-catnip/catnip-mouse-cat-toy

There may not appear to be much stuffing inside them but Dylan was motivated to destroy several layers of packaging to get to his prizes!!!!!!!!


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> Atta Boy Dylan!!!!!


That's my boy.   xx


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## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> That's my boy.   xx


Proud of you both xxx


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> Proud of you both xxx


Thank you  . I can assure you that this little lad is worth all the heartache and tears. Would I have taken him on in March 2013 if I'd known what was ahead for us both ? Too right I would. He's Special and has enriched my life so much.


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## Pepperpots

Great news!


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## Forester

Dylan was sick shortly after I posted yesterday evening. The vomitus contained an *enormous *wad of hair ( possibly the largest he's ever produced ). I have a feeling that may well explain why he'd seemed slightly nauseous at times during the previous day or two.

I've since combed him until I could barely find another loose hair. He was in raptures.

I've kept his food at 67% Purrform for the next 3-4 days just in case he needs more time to acclimatise; after all, a few days won't make much difference in the big scheme of things.I will change to 75% with the next batch.

ETA It's just occurred to me that 67%- 75% is not much of an increase anyway. Oh well, it makes a psychological difference to the slave.


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## Mrs Funkin

Better out than in, Dylan. I’d want to vomit too if I had a tummy full of hair.


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## Forester

Dylan isn't content with throwing a spanner into the works of my plans. He has to throw in the whole toolbox. 

To put it briefly, in 24 hours he vomited once, had one aborted vomit ( he stopped heaving when I moved him away from the carpet ) and has decided that PurrForm Complete Supplement is the work of the Devil. As if that isn't enough there were traces of blood on the outside of some poop yesterday morning.

I've booked the first available appointment with my vet . It's on Friday evening.

I'm now occupying myself by reading up on long term strategies for dealing with constipation as well as pondering how on earth I'm going to get his diet complete. I'm relatively confident that the blood traces are a result of constipation but obviously want my boy checked out thoroughly.

I've been reading a really informative site devoted to feline constipation http://www.felineconstipation.org/introduction.html. It's given me plenty to think about.

@Paddypaws , any suggestions ? apple pectin? pre biotics? hydrolysed collagen?I know that the balance between insoluble and soluble fibre is important.

I am wondering whether the constipation might be partly a result of the incomplete diet, thinking inadequate levels of choline, B vits and magnesium.

Urgh, It just gets more complicated on a daily basis.


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester I wish I had some useful input for you. I would be inclined to agree about the blood on his poop though, anal linings are very delicate and easily bleed, so if Dylan is straining I'd not be surprised about that - but it is of course the right thing to have him checked over. Does he have a vitamin supplement at all? I'm thinking the cat equivalent of abidec for babies (but of course I'm new at all this cat stuff so don't know if these things exist). Oh for a magic wand to resolve it all. Let us know how Friday goes at the vet.


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## Forester

@Mrs Funkin .Thank you for your continued support .

Dylan's dietary position is extremely complicated. The basic mix which Dylan tolerates gives him an acceptable calcium hosphorus balance, sufficient taurine, and the correct levels of vitamins A and D , . It is lacking in minerals , vit E,and B vits as well as choline ( sometimes included under B vits although requirement levels are much higher than for most vitamins ). The PurrForm Complete Supplement claims to provide all necessary vitamins and minerals when added to muscle meat in the correct proportions.( although I personally disagree ) .I feel that there is an issue around choline which is not included. Cats can synthesize choline provided they have sufficient levels of methionine, B12 and folic acid however I doubt that Dylan would be in a position to do this. Choline is important as a neurotransmitter, for cell structure and is important in preventing fatty liver. It also assists GI motility.

Dylan doesn't tolerate any of the premixes, or Felini Complete which is why it was decided to build his diet from scratch.

Since posting last I've managed to persuade Dylan to eat his food containing 67% of the required PurrForm dose through the use of nutritional yeast as a topper. I also gave one meal of just pure pork ( no supplements at all ). Interestingly he's eating his overnight food much better than that fed during the day. I've made up my next batch of food using just 50% of the PurrForm dose in the hope that he may deign to eat that. To give him sufficient Purrform Supplement to balance his meat by placing it inside capsules I would need to give 6 extra capsules per day- not exactly practical.

I prefer to provide Dylan's vit/ mins incorporated into his food, whenever possible as it makes it much easier to get a correct balance. If his food intake varies from day to day it's awkward to calculate how much supplement is required.

I'm seriously considering adding a phage prebiotic to Dylan's regime.

https://www.advanced-supplements.co.uk/product/floraphage/ I've seen numerous reports of this product helping with both constipation and dire rear.IMHO anything I can do which could improve Dylan's microbiome has to be beneficial.

Of course I will report after our trip to the vet tomorrow evening.


----------



## TriTri

Hi @Forester, I was wondering if Dylan had been tested for Clostridium perfringens? 
It's just I've gone back to the drawing board with my ibd cat and asked for more tests and they recently checked for this and I found out yesterday that she has an overgrowth of it. I wondered, as you are going to the vets tomorrow, if it's worth mentioning? Tests were taken from a 3 day faecal sample. I'm hoping Tessies prescribed magic potion may make the world of difference to her and maybe it could do too, for Dylan?


----------



## Forester

TriTri said:


> Hi @Forester, I was wondering if Dylan had been tested for Clostridium perfringens?
> It's just I've gone back to the drawing board with my ibd cat and asked for more tests and they recently checked for this and I found out yesterday that she has an overgrowth of it. I wondered, as you are going to the vets tomorrow, if it's worth mentioning? Tests were taken from a 3 day faecal sample. I'm hoping Tessies prescribed magic potion may make the world of difference to her and maybe it could do too, for Dylan?


@TriTri I'm sorry to hear that Tessie has Clostridium perfingens but glad that it's been identified and that you have treatment. I hope that the treatment proves successful and that she improves quickly.

I _think _that Dylan's been tested although it was some time ago . I supplied a 3 day sample ( Dylan's )   and requested that it be tested for everything possible but I will check tomorrow. I wonder whether it would be worth testing again. I will enquire.

At the moment I only have a one day sample as a "gift" for my vet but can easily collect more. Luckily for the vet I've packaged it in a clear plastic bag so that he can inspect the trace of blood relatively easily.

I'm off to research Clostridium perfingens now. . . . . . .thank you xx 

ETA . @TriTri Does Tessie have dire rear?


----------



## TriTri

Since I found her 4 years ago, she has had many episodes of being sick. Her stools can vary and sometimes be 70% ok and 30% soft and at times with blood in them, though not so much now. I put a post in the health and nutrician section yesterday when I received the news and have been given some useful advice there, so please take a look. I had asked the vet about testing for triaditis and trichi- something! I asked about the 3 day faecal sample done previously and she suggested testing for E.Coli, Salmonella, Giarda & campylobacter. The first three she was tested for previously and not sure about that last one. She didn’t mention testing for Clostridium Perferingens but said that was the problem, with very high levels of it /an overgrowth of it. She is taking two weeks supply of Metronidazole which is a specific antibiotic and also anti-inflammatory. It’s an oral suspension, as Tessy is too small to take the tablet she said. Poor Tessy now only ways 2.83 kilos. I hope this helps.


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## Forester

TriTri said:


> Since I found her 4 years ago, she has had many episodes of being sick. Her stools can be 70% ok and 30% soft and at times with blood in them, though not so much now. I put a post on the health and nutrucian section yesterday when I received the news and have been given some useful advice there, so please take a look. I had asked the vet about testing for triaditis and trichi- something! I asked about the 3 day faecal sample done previously and she suggested testing for E.Coli, Salmonella, Giardia, Campyldsacter (?) sos I cant read my writing! The first three she was tested for previously and not sure about that last one. She didn't mention testing for Clostridium Perferingens but said that was the problem, with very high levels of it /an overgrowth of it. She is taking two weeks supply of Metronidazole which is a specific antibiotic and also anti-inflammatory. It's an oral suspension, as Tessy is too small to take the tablet she said. Poor Tessy now only ways 2.83 kilos. I hope this helps.


Thanks for that @TriTri. I have everything crossed that you can clear up Tessy's Clostridium infection. My, she is tiny, Hopefully the Metronidazole oral suspension will taste better than the tablets do. Sadly Dylan can't have Metronidazole, he reacts to it, but I do believe that it can be a very useful medication. Please let us know how Tessy goes on .xx


----------



## TriTri

Forester said:


> Thanks for that @TriTri. I have everything crossed that you can clear up Tessy's Clostridium infection. My, she is tiny, Hopefully the Metronidazole oral suspension will taste better than the tablets do. Sadly Dylan can't have Metronidazole, he reacts to it, but I do believe that it can be a very useful medication. Please let us know how Tessy goes on .xx


Thank you @Forester. I shall report back! I hope all goes well at the vet today for dear Dylan.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I've kept his food at 67% Purrform for the next 3-4 days just in case he needs more time to acclimatise; after all, a few days won't make much difference in the big scheme of things.I will change to 75% with the next bat


Wow!


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## Forester

TriTri said:


> Thank you @Forester. I shall report back! I hope all goes well at the vet today for dear Dylan.


I look forward to hearing an update on Tessy. I have everything crossed that the metronidazole helps her. 
Thank you also for your good wishes for Dylan. I will report back



lorilu said:


> Wow!


Urghh, as we know every step forward is followed by yet more steps back.

My mind is working overtime regarding what to do about the incomplete diet.I'm wondering whether to combine Dylan's bespoke supplement with a proportion of the PurrForm.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Dylan vomited again overnight , as well as produced another very very dry poo. I'm wondering whether the recent increase in vomiting might be connected to the increased constipation; also whether the constipation is down to the incomplete diet as well as the ondansetron. It seems that each time I solve one problem I create a whole host more!!!!!!!!


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## Matrod

@Forester when Matilda was constipated she vomited more so maybe the two are related. I hope the vet visit goes well.


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## Forester

Matrod said:


> @Forester when Matilda was constipated she vomited more so maybe the two are related. I hope the vet visit goes well.


 @Matrod. Thank you. I've " liked " your post because it is useful to know that you saw a connection between increased vomiting and constipation with your lovely Matilda, *not *because she was unfortunate enough to suffer the issues. If I'm honest I think that Dylan's current problems are all interrelated, as well compounded by his IBD. I do however want to rule out other possibilities.

I am however completely confused as to what action I should take to benefit Dylan the most. There again, that's hardly a new situation.Maybe my vet will come up with a plan which will solve everything . I can dream.


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## Forester

Just a quick update before I go off researching my options yet again.

My vet feels that the rock hard consistency of Dylan's poop is the most likely cause of the traces blood.

The vet gave Dylan a thorough examination and announced that there's nothing to suggest to him that there's anything sinister going on. Everything internal, including all lymph nodes, feel normal. These is no sign of an anal polyp. Dylan isn't losing weight and he looks " absolutely fabulous" 

@TriTri ,We did discuss the possibility of an infection however the vet felt that sending off a sample of rock hard poop for culture would be unlikely to reveal anything other than E Coli. If the blood persists once I've managed to get the poop softer then we'll send off a sample.

My vet agrees that rock hard poop would be likely to trigger an increase in vomiting.

I came home with a bottle of lactulose, as well as a smile.  I will sleep better tonight.

Now to decide what else to do to remedy the current situation.


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## TriTri

Forester said:


> Just a quick update before I go off researching my options yet again.
> 
> My vet feels that the rock hard consistency of Dylan's poop is the most likely cause of the traces blood.
> 
> The vet gave Dylan a thorough examination and announced that there's nothing to suggest to him that there's anything sinister going on. Everything internal, including all lymph nodes, feel normal. These is no sign of an anal polyp. Dylan isn't losing weight and he looks " absolutely fabulous"
> 
> @TriTri ,We did discuss the possibility of an infection however the vet felt that sending off a sample of rock hard poop for culture would be unlikely to reveal anything other than E Coli. If the blood persists once I've managed to get the poop softer then we'll send off a sample.
> 
> My vet agrees that rock hard poop would be likely to trigger an increase in vomiting.
> 
> I came home with a bottle of lactulose, as well as a smile.  I will sleep better tonight.
> 
> Now to decide what else to do to remedy the current situation.


That's wonderful news. Well done! And well done Dylan for looking so fabulous! I agree, no point sending off a hard poo, only a soft poo! Let's hope that lactulose softens it up and stops the dreaded vomiting. Sounds like you're getting there. It's a bit of a see-saw this ibd stuff, isn't it? Tessies meds' are kicking in and she has been more lively today than normal.... yay!


----------



## Forester

Oh well , I suppose the hypothesis that Dylan's increased vomiting and constipation are linked has prevented a feeling of utter despondency this morning. We've had 2 lots of blood stained hard poo and a vomit this morning already. I'm definitely going to increase the proportion of fat in his diet again as well as change probiotics.

@TriTri Thank you  I am soooo pleased to hear that Tessie is starting to feel better.Fingers crossed that her poo problems will resolve and her appetite will pick up too.xx


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## Forester

Sunday yielded a poo of perfect consistency, thanks to 1ml lactulose twice daily. I now need to find a "natural" way of achieving the same result. The poo was noticeably blood stained although I suppose that Friday's examination might have aggravated any raw areas. 

Dylan is still extremely reluctant to eat food with any PurrForm Complete Supplement added. I dropped the level to 50% of target dose in the hope that it would help. It hasn't.

For the last few days Dylan has eaten only about 10g -25g food before around 6pm. At that stage , I've given in , and fed him a meal of just plain pork. The pork gets scoffed , after which Dylan will eat the pork plus PurrForm until breakfast time the following day. Then the cycle repeats.

I'm thinking that I'll have to go back to my " basic mix" then try, once again, to introduce Dylan's bespoke supplement. The PurrForm Complete Supplement isn't going to do Dylan any good if I can't get it into him.

November yielded 9 vomits despite the introduction of ondansetron. But for the ondansetron the tally would have been much,much worse. There were 5 vomits during the first 10 days of the month, 1 in the next 10 days , then 3 in the final 10 days. 


Any suggestions for what I could do now will be most welcome. I drive myself crazy weighing up the options.


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## Mrs Funkin

Hi @Forester I am guessing/assuming that Dylan cannot have all the usual "natural" products with laxative effects, like pureed pumpkin? I'm sure the examination irritation combined with previously hard stool will be the likely cause of the blood. Bless poor Dylan, more likely he's figured out that if he doesn't eat it, you'll give him his favourite plain pork 

I wish I had some useful input for you, I really do. Paws crossed that if Dylan has the lactulose, he isn't constipated and the vomiting will continue to be less frequent.


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## SuboJvR

Forester said:


> November yielded 9 vomits despite the introduction of ondansetron. But for the ondansetron the tally would have been much,much worse. There were 5 vomits during the first 10 days of the month, 1 in the next 10 days , then 3 in the final 10 days.


I am coming in a bit late here so not sure if this has been discussed, but ondansetron can cause constipation - at least in people. So, whilst I know you would love to get him on perfect poops "naturally", you may struggle whilst he is taking ondansetron for sickness - don't be too hard on yourself!


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Hi @Forester I am guessing/assuming that Dylan cannot have all the usual "natural" products with laxative effects, like pureed pumpkin? I'm sure the examination irritation combined with previously hard stool will be the likely cause of the blood. Bless poor Dylan, more *likely he's figured out that if he doesn't eat it, you'll give him his favourite plain pork  *
> 
> I wish I had some useful input for you, I really do. Paws crossed that if Dylan has the lactulose, he isn't constipated and the vomiting will continue to be less frequent.


@Mrs Funkin , re the words I've made bold, you've clearly met my boy!  Unfortunately for Dylan , today I haven't given him a meal of plain pork. Instead I made up a batch of food containing my basic mix ( pork plus calcium carbonate plus taurine plus cod liver oil ) to which I'd added 5% of his ration of the bespoke supplement. He turned his nose up at that too. He has now eaten it, but less than 10 minutes after doing so he vomited under my bed.

Dylan _could_ have pureed pumpkin, if only the little sweetie would eat it. He's become increasingly picky over the last couple of years. I have been wondering about peas, or beans. I've also wondered about cabbage .I remember @Paddypaws telling me that cabbage is rich in butyrate,which , I believe, is good for healing of the gut wall. Dylan loves cabbage , or at least I think he does.He once chewed through an old margarine carton to get at some leftover cabbage which had been stored inside.

Other thoughts I've had include this :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-Foods-Probiotic-Defense-combination/dp/B017WQTVIG , which is a probiotic but contains fermented grasses, ( thinks fermented grasses would be similar to the contents of a mouse's stomach, therefore fibre )

and this :https://www.advanced-supplements.co.uk/product/floraphage/ which is a phage prebiotic. Phage's are tiny organism's ( virus') which digest bad bacteria, specifically E Coli, turning them into food for good bacteria. I've seen several accounts of this product helping cats with constipation. I know that it';s only anecdotal evidence but that's better than nothing. I did consider trying this product a while back , purely as a probiotic multiplier, but was put off by the thought of feeding a "virus".

I've also increased the proportion of fat in Dylan's food.

Dylan hasn't pooed since Sunday night/ Monday morning. I'm expecting some tonight. I'm not bothered about the frequency, 3 days is reasonably normal for a raw fed cat, it's the consistency I need to change. ( I do realise that the longer it's inside the drier it will be ).

Please don't worry about not having suggestions @Mrs Funkin . You're helping me just by being there.  I know that I would struggle with this if I felt completely alone, but I don't. I know that I have people to lean on here.

xx


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## Forester

SuboJvR said:


> I am coming in a bit late here so not sure if this has been discussed, but ondansetron can cause constipation - at least in people. So, whilst I know you would love to get him on perfect poops "naturally", you may struggle whilst he is taking ondansetron for sickness - don't be too hard on yourself!


Thanks @SuboJvR . I was warned that the ondansetron was constipating before I started Dylan on it . It is brilliant for nausea though. Sometimes you just can't win. If I don't win I won't be hard on myself, it will be just another battle when I was not victorious. I have a sneaky feeling that there could well be many more battles.

My original plan was that I would only need the ondansetron to control Dylan's nausea till he adjusts to new ingredients in his diet. ( assuming that he will adjust ).Unfortunately plans tend not to reach a conclusion with Dylan. He's *always *reacted to *any *change but he will sometimes improve as time goes on. I can only live in hope and take one day at a time.

The whole process of this transition may sound , to some, like hard work, but it's much better than the alternative. Before I started this transition Dylan was losing weight rapidly despite eating 420g food per day. He was also vomiting with increasing frequency. No matter how many problems Dylan gives me to solve I'm grateful that he's still here. When he first started to vomit regularly there were 4 of us who were regulars on the IBD/ colitis thread. Now only 2 remain. That thought is with me every day.


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## SuboJvR

Forester said:


> Thanks @SuboJvR . I was warned that the ondansetron was constipating before I started Dylan on it . It is brilliant for nausea though. Sometimes you just can't win. If I don't win I won't be hard on myself, it will be just another battle when I was not victorious. I have a sneaky feeling that there could well be many more battles.
> 
> My original plan was that I would only need the ondansetron to control Dylan's nausea till he adjusts to new ingredients in his diet. ( assuming that he will adjust ).Unfortunately plans tend not to reach a conclusion with Dylan. He's *always *reacted to *any *change but he will sometimes improve as time goes on. I can only live in hope and take one day at a time.
> 
> The whole process of this transition may sound , to some, like hard work, but it's much better than the alternative. Before I started this transition Dylan was losing weight rapidly despite eating 420g food per day. He was also vomiting with increasing frequency. No matter how many problems Dylan gives me to solve I'm grateful that he's still here. When he first started to vomit regularly there were 4 of us who were regulars on the IBD/ colitis thread. Now only 2 remain. That thought is with me every day.


Oh, I think you are doing brilliantly. Given the choice I'd much rather have harder poops than regular vomiting - I'm sure Dylan feels the same!!


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## Forester

SuboJvR said:


> Oh, I think you are doing brilliantly. Given the choice I'd much rather have harder poops than regular vomiting - I'm sure Dylan feels the same!!


The only problem is that we still have quite a lot of vomiting . The nausea is better though.

Thank you for your kind words.. Strangely enough, the vomiting doesn't appear to bother Dylan as much as I'd expect it too. He has been known to sit next to his dish asking for a refill before I've even finished clearing up! When I'm trying to introduce new ingredients to his diet he gets nauseous , and that's why I'm trying the ondansetron. I need to get this diet complete. I'm worrying that he's suffering from deficiencies, although my vet appears to think that he's doing well.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I have been wondering about peas, or beans.


I would steer clear of peas and beans or other legumes. I think they can be irritating in the digestive tract. I don't remember where I read that, but I can't see them giving much benefit. I think, generally speaking, the IBD group favors lactulose when necessary.

Otherwise, just following along and thinking of you both, all the time. You know. xx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I would steer clear of peas and beans or other legumes. I think they can be irritating in the digestive tract. I don't remember where I read that, but I can't see them giving much benefit. I think, generally speaking, the IBD group favors lactulose when necessary.
> 
> Otherwise, just following along and thinking of you both, all the time. You know. xx


Thank you @lorilu. Your advice is most welcome . You have much, much more experience in these matters than I have . I don't have a problem with using lactulose for brief periods , just didn't want to get into a position where Dylan needed it long term.

Of course I know that you're routing for us, as I'm routing for you and your lovely cancer kitty, Jennie. I know that what I'm experiencing with Dylan is insignificant in comparison to what you are having to cope with, so bravely , and with dignity. My heart goes out to you. Jennie is blessed to have you. (((((((((( hugs )))))))))) xx

___________________

After Dylan had been sick yesterday evening ( a small lock of hair was involved ) I decided to offer him a choice of food: pork with 50% PurrForm or pork with 5% bespoke supplement. Much to my astonishment he chose the PurrFormed meat . He also ate 70g of the Purrformed meat overnight.

@Mrs Funkin I think that you may have hit a nail on the head with your comment that Dylan knows that I will give in if he doesn't eat the food I offer him. I would never ever attempt to starve a cat into eating a particular food however I get the distinct feeling that Dylan recognises that he's in charge. If I *can* get him to reliably eat the 50% PurrFormed meat then I'm half way there. I've calculated that I could cram another 34% into 2 empty gel caps and I would be much closer to the desired position. Feeding some of the supplement in capsules poses slight issues with balancing as I'd have to know how much he was going to eat .It has to be better than not getting the extra nutrients in though.

I'm going to attempt to continue with the 50% mixture, using pure meat, or my old meat mixture when I have to. I could always use my freezer to make freeze dried pork pieces to use as an incentive.

I'm feeling more positive this morning , although still awaiting the next instalment in the " poogate" saga.


----------



## Pepperpots

I’m sure you’ve tried it, but have you considered bone broth made with pig bits? Doesn’t cure anything, but when P was at his worst, it helped to sooth his stomach.


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## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> I'm sure you've tried it, but have you considered bone broth made with pig bits? Doesn't cure anything, but when P was at his worst, it helped to sooth his stomach.


Thanks for the suggestion @Pepperpots. I have made bone broth with chicken and with lamb ( although not with pork ). The little tinker wouldn't even go within 4 feet of the dish. In fact, he actually *ran past it!!!! 
*
I do have hydrolysed collagen , which is the healing ingredient in bone broth. I was originally going to introduce it before starting my transition but it was abandoned when other difficulties arose. I do still aim to use it , particularly as there is some evidence that it can help with fibrosis.

Unfortunately there are so many things I would like to try e.g.collagen, sunflower lecithin, new probiotics, prebiotics, as well as getting the diet complete that I can't decide on priorities. I've learned from the PurrForm/ Mercola probiotics/ phosphatidyl choline fiasco not to make more than one change at a time.

xx

ETA Perhaps I'll boil up some pigs trotters , then see what happens.


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## Pepperpots

Little monkey!


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## Mrs Funkin

I’m totally convinced they know full well what they are doing. When I was trying to get Oscar to eat better food, he would honestly look me in the eye, stick his proverbial paw down his throat and just regurgitate. Then I’d give him whiskas or Felix and he’d eat the lot. 

Oh Dylan, you have been reading that, “how to manipulate your slave” book again, haven’t you


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> I'm totally convinced they know full well what they are doing. When I was trying to get Oscar to eat better food, he would honestly look me in the eye, stick his proverbial paw down his throat and just regurgitate. Then I'd give him whiskas or Felix and he'd eat the lot.
> 
> Oh Dylan, you have been reading that, "how to manipulate your slave" book again, haven't you


Reading it ? *He* *wrote it ! *( I believe that Oscar did the proof reading ) 

Oh by the way my " nerve" has just failed me. I've produced a dish of just plain pork. Strangely Dylan opened one eye then went back to sleep. I also have to confess that he's been having any daytime food in the lounge instead of the kitchen . Well, he won't last long if he doesn't eat. Me? under the paw? How could anyone suggest such a thing!

Oscar is a very bright boy, and has chosen his slave well. .


----------



## Forester

Every remedy seems to cause more problems than it solves. I've just got back from the vets ( again! ). Dylan has needed an enema. That is despite me discontinuing the ondansetron yesterday morning.

The immediate plan, poop wise, is to increase the lactulose drastically, then reduce until the desired consistency is achieved.

Food wise , I'm trying to feed pork with 50% PurrForm. 50% basic mix.. I have, however, given a few meals/ treats of just pork during the last few days. I even gave the oil off some mackerel earlier today in the hope that it might get things moving. Desperate times warrant desperate measures!

ETA I almost forgot , Dylan was sick yesterday evening. The debris included a grape sized ball of hair ( firmly matted ). It looks as though increasing the fat in Dylan's diet is causing the hair to mat again.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester it never rains but it pours. Poor Dylan - though I'm sure he feels better after an enema. Such a balancing act for you, pesky hairballs have a lot to answer to. I am so sorry you've had yet another "two steps back" moment


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester it never rains but it pours. Poor Dylan - though I'm sure he feels better after an enema. Such a balancing act for you, pesky hairballs have a lot to answer to. I am so sorry you've had yet another "two steps back" moment


Yes, he does look more comfortable , though he's still not keen to eat.

It feels as though everything has backfired at the moment. The time when we were making progress seems almost a lifetime ago.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> The time when we were making progress seems almost a lifetime ago.


But it wasn't. You are making progress. The set backs make it harder to see, they are easier to notice and remember, because they hurt, that's all. xxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> But it wasn't. You are making progress. The set backs make it harder to see, they are easier to notice and remember, because they hurt, that's all. xxx


Thank you for your kind, and motivational, words. I just wish that I shared your optimism.

I've deleted the rest, not suitable for open forum :Arghh


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Thank you for your kind, and motivational, words. I just wish that I shared your optimism.


Well I know how you feel of course. I feel the same way, even with your encouraging optimistic words to me regarding Mazy cat. xx


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## Forester

Oh joy! We now have liquid poo. Looking on the bright side, he hasn't been sick and he's eating slightly better than during the last few days.

My vet did say that he would prefer Dylan's poo to be too soft rather than too hard. I will , however, be scaling the lactulose down quite a lot.


----------



## Forester

I forgot to mention that I tried to get hold of pigs trotters on Thursday. I was unsuccessful. I did, however , manage to buy a pork shank which contained huge bones. It's been simmering away in my crockpot for almost 2 days. I refrigerated it overnight and this morning there was a huge amount of jelly.Dylan has already eaten some of the meat and I'm hopeful that he'll be willing to eat, at least , some of the jelly. Not bad for £1.59  I confess that I did do a double take when I saw the price.


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## SuboJvR

Forester said:


> Oh joy! We now have liquid poo. Looking on the bright side, he hasn't been sick and he's eating slightly better than during the last few days.
> 
> My vet did say that he would prefer Dylan's poo to be too soft rather than too hard. I will , however, be scaling the lactulose down quite a lot.


The liquid will just be from the lactulose, it gets things moving along higher up and softens the stool but that's behind the hard stuff! So when it clears the err pipes are free flowing, so to speak


----------



## Forester

SuboJvR said:


> The liquid will just be from the lactulose, it gets things moving along higher up and softens the stool but that's behind the hard stuff! So when it clears the err pipes are free flowing, so to speak


Thanks @SuboJvR , I'd realised that Dylan's " blocked pipe" had cleared due to the enema . I was just feeling so sorry for him because he was leaving a trail , poor lad. I dread to think what his insides must feel like. He's such a sweet , gentle boy and it breaks my heart to see him suffer . He didn't mutter a sound or attempt to scratch or bite whilst my vet gently administered the enema.

My vet wanted to avoid recurrence of the blockage , and the blood stained poo which resembled concrete ,so had asked me to give a high dose of lactulose. I was instructed to reduce until the desired consistency was achieved. I've cut the lactulose back almost to what I was giving when he got blocked as we had a cow pat in the tray this morning. My vet and I both think that once the ondansetron is well out of his system he may not need the lactulose.

Of course now he's decided, yet again, that he won't eat unless it's just pure pork. That said, he's also had about a teaspoonful of the jelly which came off his pork shank. He really doesn't like the PurrForm Supplement .


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## lorilu

{{hug}}


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> {{hug}}


Thanks. May I reciprocate ,. . . . . 100 times over. xx


----------



## Forester

Dylan has refused to eat any more pork jelly/ broth. He also refuses anything containing PurrForm. I've therefore put him back on the pork plus calcium carbonate plus taurine plus cod liver oil. He's reluctant to eat that either. He will eat pure meat provided that I start him off by finger feeding a few pieces.I think that he's bored with his restricted diet as well as not feeling particularly bright. 

I've just managed to get him to eat some pure pork which had a few pieces of wild boar added. I think that having some variety might help. Hopefully the wild boar will be sufficiently like pork to not cause problems. I know that it's not balanced but I'm desperate to get him eating with enthusiasm again.

There's been no poo since Sunday morning's cowpat. Not surprising really considering that he'd had a " total clearout " and hasn't been taking much in. I am however slightly worried that his digestive system might be malfunctioning ( more than usual ).

It doesn't get any easier. We also had a small vomit yesterday evening.

Thanks to anyone who is still reading.


----------



## SbanR

Hugs @Forester I'm sorry, you must feel very lonely with no one apart from lorilu who can really empathise


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan has refused to eat any more pork jelly/ broth. He also refuses anything containing PurrForm. I've therefore put him back on the pork plus calcium carbonate plus taurine plus cod liver oil. He's reluctant to eat that either. He will eat pure meat provided that I start him off by finger feeding a few pieces.I think that he's bored with his restricted diet as well as not feeling particularly bright.
> 
> I've just managed to get him to eat some pure pork which had a few pieces of wild boar added. I think that having some variety might help. Hopefully the wild boar will be sufficiently like pork to not cause problems. I know that it's not balanced but I'm desperate to get him eating with enthusiasm again.
> 
> There's been no poo since Sunday morning's cowpat. Not surprising really considering that he'd had a " total clearout " and hasn't been taking much in. I am however slightly worried that his digestive system might be malfunctioning ( more than usual ).
> 
> It doesn't get any easier. We also had a small vomit yesterday evening.
> 
> Thanks to anyone who is still reading.


If he needs to poop, that could affect his appetite. Is he on an appetite stimulant? I can't remember. I hope the wild boar kick starts him up again. xxxxxx


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Hugs @Forester I'm sorry, you must feel very lonely with no one apart from lorilu who can really empathise


Thank you for your kind words , and the hug, SbanR. They've brought me to the point of tears because you care about us.

I do feel like the loneliest person on the planet at times. I'm so glad that I have this forum to " talk to".But for you all , and especially @lorilu I'm pretty sure that I'd have given up with this transition. I'd have been feeding my boy a diet packed with biologically inappropriate ingredients and he would have been gradually wasting away, if not worse.



lorilu said:


> If he needs to poop, that could affect his appetite. Is he on an appetite stimulant? I can't remember. I hope the wild boar kick starts him up again. xxxxxx


Urghh, I think the appetite problem is because he's sick of having just raw pork muscle meat. It's all that he's had for 17 months, apart from the few pieces of duck, and the slivers of liver and egg. He appears to *love *the wild boar; and it does seem to have kick started his appetite , at least for now. He ate all of his overnight food and has gobbled both portions of today's breakfast. I just hope that I can get some more boar!

On the tray front , we still don't have poo. The last offering was a small cowpat on Sunday morning. My vet wanted to see daily poo but I honestly think that there's no chance of that. I can't see that he has the waste to evacuate. I will admit that I'm giving considerably less Lactulose than was suggested however the weekend's liquid poo was distressing for all. I did try to give a little more lactulose yesterday evening however my larger syringe doesn't move well. Most of that sweet sticky substance was sprayed down my dressing gown.

Dylan does have 5mg cetirizine hydrochloride daily. I instigated it because there is some evidence that it might help with eosinophilic inflammation which Dylan has lots of. I believe that it used as an appetite stimulant in the US.

Yesterday I found this.https://uk.virbac.com/products/nutritional-supplement/nutribound. I think that I might order some to have on hand in the future.

On a slightly different tack, I've just had a message from someone who found that shredded lettuce helped her boy with constipation.No prizes for guessing what Dylan will get offered alongside his lunch. Methinks that the cabbage idea could also resurface.

xxxxxxx


----------



## SbanR

@Forester the nutribound is supposed to be "kitty chocolate" and irresistible (so the vet nurse told me). It does have a chocolate smell and my late LB refused to have anything to do with it.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Forester said:


> Thank you for your kind words , and the hug, SbanR. They've brought me to the point of tears because you care about us.
> 
> I do feel like the loneliest person on the planet at times. I'm so glad that I have this forum to " talk to".But for you all , and especially @lorilu I'm pretty sure that I'd have given up with this transition. I'd have been feeding my boy a diet packed with biologically inappropriate ingredients and he would have been gradually wasting away, if not worse.
> 
> Urghh, I think the appetite problem is because he's sick of having just raw pork muscle meat. It's all that he's had for 17 months, apart from the few pieces of duck, and the slivers of liver and egg. He appears to *love *the wild boar; and it does seem to have kick started his appetite , at least for now. He ate all of his overnight food and has gobbled both portions of today's breakfast. I just hope that I can get some more boar!
> 
> On the tray front , we still don't have poo. The last offering was a small cowpat on Sunday morning. My vet wanted to see daily poo but I honestly think that there's no chance of that. I can't see that he has the waste to evacuate. I will admit that I'm giving considerably less Lactulose than was suggested however the weekend's liquid poo was distressing for all. I did try to give a little more lactulose yesterday evening however my larger syringe doesn't move well. Most of that sweet sticky substance was sprayed down my dressing gown.
> 
> Dylan does have 5mg cetirizine hydrochloride daily. I instigated it because there is some evidence that it might help with eosinophilic inflammation which Dylan has lots of. I believe that it used as an appetite stimulant in the US.
> 
> Yesterday I found this.https://uk.virbac.com/products/nutritional-supplement/nutribound. I think that I might order some to have on hand in the future.
> 
> On a slightly different tack, I've just had a message from someone who found that shredded lettuce helped her boy with constipation.No prizes for guessing what Dylan will get offered alongside his lunch. Methinks that the cabbage idea could also resurface.
> 
> xxxxxxx


Oh @Forester I'm sad for you. I can't do much but do you need me to send you some new large syringes? That I *can* do. Please message me if that would be helpful.

I'm off out into the forest to find a wild boar for Dylan now, I may be some time 

Sending strength, but for you and your love and determination, things would be very different for your boy. You know that in your heart, it's just hard to keep going I am sure.


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> @Forester the nutribound is supposed to be "kitty chocolate" and irresistible (so the vet nurse told me). It does have a chocolate smell and my late LB refused to have anything to do with it.


Oh @SbanR, isn't it typical of cats that LB wouldn't touch the "choccies" which you so kindly bought. Knowing Dylan he'll probably be the same but it might help my peace of mind to have some to hand should I wish to try.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester I'm sad for you. I can't do much but do you need me to send you some new large syringes? That I *can* do. Please message me if that would be helpful.
> 
> *I'm off out into the forest to find a wild boar for Dylan now, I may be some time *
> 
> Sending strength, but for you and your love and determination, things would be very different for you boy. You know that in your heart, it's just hard to keep going I am sure.


@Mrs Funkin, please don't feel sad for me. I have the sweetest cat which ever lived . He gives me endless pleasure . Yes, I feel bad that he's sick and doesn't have a normal life but I do know that I'm trying everything within my power to help him.

The syringe offer is extremely sweet of you , and most appreciated, however I will decline at the moment. I've found an old 5ml syringe with a smoother action which should hopefully do the trick. I can always visit my vets for more supplies should that one fail to perform.

You can have no idea how much the emboldened text made me laugh .If I'm honest I'm still laughing. Initially because I was imagining you as Captain Oates venturing out into Antarctica , and secondly because I live in the Forest of Dean . I am surrounded by wild boar.

I have so much close contact with wild boar that I have to keep my front gate chained to prevent them from entering. This was what they did outside my gate back in August.










By October there wasn't a blade of grass to be seen. If you Google "boar damage Forest of Dean" you will see many, many more pictures.

Since I'm on the subject , here's a boar photographed by one of my friends whilst walking her dogs.










I *have* managed to buy more boar meat. My local butcher just happened to have one in his fridge.


----------



## SbanR

Yay! Dylan will feast tonight and several meals to come


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Yay! Dylan will feast tonight and several meals to come


Yay indeed. I bought 2lb boar meat but have decided to go back for more tomorrow. I was advised that the butcher doesn't get boar very often.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Yay indeed. I bought 2lb boar meat but have decided to go back for more tomorrow. I was advised that the butcher doesn't get boar very often.


Ask him to ring you whenever he expects/gets boar in


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh my! A wild boar at your front door! 

There's a conversation you never thought you'd have with your butcher.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh my! A wild boar at your front door!
> 
> .


They can be seen strolling down the middle of the road every night and have been known to stop by each gateway to check whether they can get in. They're also extremely adept at turning wheelie bins over in order to rummage amongst the contents.

You don't mess with them . One man, who obviously fed them, lost a couple of fingers, and there have been numerous attacks on dogs. I used to ride my horse in the woods but there's no way that I'd do it now.


----------



## Forester

This morning started on a good note but then went downhill slightly.

Positives : a poo with the desired consistency, followed by another which was unformed. 
a pretty good appetite. He's even eaten 2 small portions of, mostly minced, pork just topped with a few morsels of wild boar.
Dylan's brighter, and looking for mischief.

Negatives: another vomit. This happened at least an hour after the poo, probably several hours after.

I'm pretty pleased with the poo situation, and intend to revert to a dose of 2ml Lactulose twice daily for the near future.At least the day brings more positives than negatives.


----------



## lorilu

Hurray for poop! xx


----------



## Paddypaws

As always, although I don’t often comment I DO follow Dylan’s progress carefully and admire your dedication from afar


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> As always, although I don't often comment I DO follow Dylan's progress carefully and admire your dedication from afar


Oh PP Thank you . It is a comfort to know that you're still following us.

Can I ask you a favour ? If you see me doing something which you think might not be the best action to take would you let me know. You're far more knowledgeable about GI systems than I am, and I often worry whether my decision making might be a little suspect . Sometimes it's hard to look at things objectively when I'm so emotionally involved.

How could anyone with an ounce of compassion not do everything they can for a helpless creature who relies on them ?


----------



## Forester

This has been a difficult week. During the daytime Dylan will only eat if wild boar is mixed in with his pork, although at night he seems willing to eat whatever he's given !. We've had to wait 6 days for poo despite His Lordship having 2ml lactulose each morning and evening. Dylan has also vomited three times since Monday and frequently looks nauseous.

I will admit that I've become more anxious about my lad with each passing day. Everything I try to improve the situation seems to cause even more problems. I was at my wits end to know what to do so asked for advice from experienced members of the Raw for IBD group. The consensus was that nausea needed to be addressed first with suggestions such as reinstating the Ondansetron whilst increasing lactulose to offset the extra constipation, CBD oil, and MCT oil ( Medium Chain Triglyceride ) though the MCT suggestion was made as a possible remedy for the constipation.

Much as the ondansetron initially seemed extremely helpful in preventing nausea for Dylan I really don't feel that reintroducing it would be a sensible option. IMHO it doesn't suit Dylan. I was only giving half of the recommended dose yet it seems to have triggered the recent poo problems. I do believe that constipation is increasing Dylan's vomiting rate.

@Mrs Funkin I am extremely grateful for the advice you gave me about ondansetron . It isn't your fault that my boy didn't do well with it. Dylan reacts to anything and everything, Bless him. 

I've recently discovered that long term use of Saccharomyces boulardii , one of the strains of bacteria I've been giving Dylan as part of his Bioglan probiotic can also cause constipation. I've withdrawn the Bioglan , ( shame that I've recently bought another 3 months worth ) and need to find a replacement probiotic. I've been advised of 2 products which come highly recommended and I'm currently trying to decide which to order. The difficult issue is that both have to be kept refrigerated . One offers refrigerated delivery ( at £9 ) but the other doesn't. These are the two products.

https://www.vsl3.co.uk/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-Foods-...s=now+probiotic-10+25+billion,50+veg+capsules

As far as I know, ( I could well be wrong, I've looked at so many articles as well as details of products ) the suggested MCT oil contains coconut oil. Does that seem biologically appropriate for a cat???? I also have a feeling that I've seen , somewhere , a reason why it _shouldn't _be used for cats.

CBD oil ? I know that it's not supposed to contain the psychoactive element which is present in cannabis, and is supposed to be good at treating inflammation, however I have heard contradictory reports. I know someone who themselves tried CBD oil which was intended for feline consumption and they said that it was just like taking pot. I don't think that I'm that desperate at the moment.

I momentarily considered discussing with my vet the pros and cons of increasing Dylan's pred. dose however I think that I'll shelve that idea for now. I'm feeling slightly more positive after reading that nausea and vomiting can be a side effect of lactulose use. Certainly yesterdays vomit came within 30 minutes of me giving Dylan a double dose of lactulose on an empty stomach . I won't be doing that again ! Is the recent nausea a result of the lactulose? Who knows.

The good news LOL. I've managed to get some more wild boar . At the current rate of consumption Dylan should be able to feast for a while.

Oh , I almost forgot. I've been looking into purchasing a combination of soluble and insoluble fibre in an attempt to prevent the constipation. I was thinking of trying apple pectin for soluble and cellulose for insoluble. Soluble fibre softens the stool by drawing in water however slows GI transit . Insoluble fibre bulks the stool , speeding up transit however it also makes the stool drier.

If anyone has managed to read and follow that lot they deserve chocolates and wine. Cheers!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester - your poor boy, though I am pleased he is still addicted to boar, for some reason that makes me smile  I so wish the Ondansetron had agreed with him, it's such a great drug.

Interestingly, when I had Oscar on Bioglan, it definitely slowed down his poop rate, so I took him off it as he was getting very close to 48 hourly poops. I did consider it again this week, after I made a royal cock-up and gave him a small amount of raw steak mince on Tuesday night as a treat. Cue three horrible poops within half an hour on Wednesday morning. So of course, I feel terrible about that. He's done a normal poop today though, human daddy texted me whilst I was at work, as he knows I worry. I was given some Naturo mousse by a friend whose cat loves it and I tried him with it the other day...but I must confess I've given up. He's a boy destined to live on junk food, I cannot and don't want to have constant battles with him - when Sheba, Felix and Whiskas agree with him and everything "good" doesn't. I thought he'd have gone off Sheba by now but oh no. It's his very favourite 

All I can say is thank goodness for the internet, so you have access to all this amazing information. As for coconut oil and cats, that sounds intriguing, could you just pretend you live in the Caribbean?  I know, I'm flippant, sorry. It could be my next research topic, I think it's really interesting.

Keep enjoying your boar, Dylan. I'm off for a Malibu and coke to celebrate the coconut discussion...


----------



## Paddypaws

@Forester if you decide to try vsl3 contact me as I may be able to get a discount


----------



## Forester

Whoops , posted in error.


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> @Forester if you decide to try vsl3 contact me as I may be able to get a discount


Thank you @Paddypaws . That's extremely kind of you. 

I'm having difficulty deciding between them. The NOW 10 50 billion contains more strains but the VSL offers refrigerated delivery .I'd hate to purchase a product which had been rendered ineffective through poor storage or transport conditions.What is your view regarding the refrigerated delivery, how necessary is it?

I know that the VSL appears much more expensive for the number of viable units but I have been advised that one sachet provides approximately 10 doses.

I did read that VSL were made to retract one of their claims about the product though I can't remember what that claim was.

Do you have experience of either of these products?


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester - your poor boy, though I am pleased he is still addicted to boar, for some reason that makes me smile  I so wish the Ondansetron had agreed with him, it's such a great drug.
> 
> Interestingly, when I had Oscar on Bioglan, it definitely slowed down his poop rate, so I took him off it as he was getting very close to 48 hourly poops. I did consider it again this week, after I made a royal cock-up and gave him a small amount of raw steak mince on Tuesday night as a treat. Cue three horrible poops within half an hour on Wednesday morning. So of course, I feel terrible about that. He's done a normal poop today though, human daddy texted me whilst I was at work, as he knows I worry. I was given some Naturo mousse by a friend whose cat loves it and I tried him with it the other day...but I must confess I've given up. He's a boy destined to live on junk food, I cannot and don't want to have constant battles with him - when Sheba, Felix and Whiskas agree with him and everything "good" doesn't. I thought he'd have gone off Sheba by now but oh no. It's his very favourite
> 
> All I can say is thank goodness for the internet, so you have access to all this amazing information. As for coconut oil and cats, that sounds intriguing, could you just pretend you live in the Caribbean?  I know, I'm flippant, sorry. It could be my next research topic, I think it's really interesting.
> 
> Keep enjoying your boar, Dylan. I'm off for a Malibu and coke to celebrate the coconut discussion...


I hope that you enjoyed your drink @Mrs Funkin . I never imagined that this thread would get around to the subject of coconuts! Maybe you could justify a trip to the Caribbean, for research purposes , of course.

As for the ondansetron, It certainly was brilliant at preventing nausea. I even rang my vet to tell him how impressed I was. It's typical that Dylan couldn't cope with it. He doesn't cope with much , poor lad.

I'm extremely pleased to hear that Oscar's poop is back on track after the effects of his steak night. Please don't blame yourself too much over the incident. I doubt that there's _anyone _with a cat on a restricted diet who hasn't ever tried to give " just one piece" of something else. We've all fallen for it at sometime. Thank goodness that Mr Funkin texted you with an update, you'd have worried yourself silly from not knowing what was happening. Don't worry, when I was still working I used to ring OH from work to check how Dylan was.

Our feline charges are our family. At least you weren't dancing around at 3am singing " all I want for Christmas is poo" after receiving an unwrapped present in Dylan's litter tray, unlike someone I know.

Please don't be too hasty to call Oscar's food " junk". It clearly agrees with him and IMHO that's what matters . I know of a cat, diagnosed by biopsies with IBD who does exceptionally well on Sheba, so it can't be too bad.

Thanks for your support.


----------



## Forester

After looking at details of a variety of probiotic products I think that VSL3 appears to be the best option for Dylan. Although it requires refrigerated storage the manufacturers claim that it will retain potency at room temperature ( below 25 degrees )for up to a week. @Paddypaws , I'll message you in connection with your kind offer.. Thank you  xx

Dylan has now been sick on 3 consecutive days. I wondering whether he's reacting to the wild boar, or whether it's down to the lactulose , or just a deteriorating situation. I'm telling myself that we have experienced worse spells than this. On one day he'd been sick 4 times before 1pm however at that time he wasn't on any medication at all. I have to find a way to get him back on track. After finishing the tiny batch of food I have made up which contains a small proportion of boar I'm going to see whether I can get him to eat just pork again.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Forester said:


> I hope that you enjoyed your drink @Mrs Funkin . I never imagined that this thread would get around to the subject of coconuts! Maybe you could justify a trip to the Caribbean, for research purposes , of course.
> 
> As for the ondansetron, It certainly was brilliant at preventing nausea. I even rang my vet to tell him how impressed I was. It's typical that Dylan couldn't cope with it. He doesn't cope with much , poor lad.
> 
> I'm extremely pleased to hear that Oscar's poop is back on track after the effects of his steak night. Please don't blame yourself too much over the incident. I doubt that there's _anyone _with a cat on a restricted diet who hasn't ever tried to give " just one piece" of something else. We've all fallen for it at sometime. Thank goodness that Mr Funkin texted you with an update, you'd have worried yourself silly from not knowing what was happening. Don't worry, when I was still working I used to ring OH from work to check how Dylan was.
> 
> Our feline charges are our family. At least you weren't dancing around at 3am singing " all I want for Christmas is poo" after receiving an unwrapped present in Dylan's litter tray, unlike someone I know.
> 
> Please don't be too hasty to call Oscar's food " junk". It clearly agrees with him and IMHO that's what matters . I know of a cat, diagnosed by biopsies with IBD who does exceptionally well on Sheba, so it can't be too bad.
> 
> Thanks for your support.


Thank you @Forester - I feel so terribly guilty every time I read threads about food and the food I feed Oscar is discussed. He does do very well with his Sheba though, with some Whiskas and Felix for a bit of variation. I keep almost committing to not trying again with different foods - but I am fully committed currently, as all food except those plus his fishy encore/cosma treat tins have been given to the cat shelter. The tins of fishy treats he will eat a little from but then not again the next day, funny little boy.

Dylan if you like the plain pork, I'd be very thankful if you'd eat that and stop vomiting and worrying your human. Paws crossed for a less vommy day tomorrow.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Thank you @Forester - I feel so terribly guilty every time I read threads about food and the food I feed Oscar is discussed. He does do very well with his Sheba though, with some Whiskas and Felix for a bit of variation. I keep almost committing to not trying again with different foods - but I am fully committed currently, as all food except those plus his fishy encore/cosma treat tins have been given to the cat shelter. The tins of fishy treats he will eat a little from but then not again the next day, funny little boy.
> 
> Dylan if you like the plain pork, I'd be very thankful if you'd eat that and stop vomiting and worrying your human. Paws crossed for a less vommy day tomorrow.


Mrs F you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about at all.You feed products which are complete( unlike someone I know  ), are wet, and which suit Oscar. That's pretty good in my book. Oscar well and truly landed on his feet with you, and Mr F .

Dylan hasn't been sick today . . . .yet, though there's still plenty of time :Nailbiting. He does look slightly uncomfortable after eating however he races about like an absolute loony when something excites him. If only I knew exactly what was causing the current issues.

Having taken Dylan off the Bioglan because of its Saccharomyces boulardii content I don't want to leave him without a probiotic whilst I'm sorting out the VSL3. I've therefore purchased a short term option from my local accessible health food shop. I'd intended to get a simple acidophilis / bifidus product but there wasn't one available . The product I chose contains 2 of the strains present in Bioglan as well as 4 strains present in the VSL3. This one has a total CFU count of 30 billion, compared to the 450 billion in VSL . I've given just 1/4 capsule of the new product today and hope that it will act as a gradual introduction to the new bacteria.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Thank you @Forester - that actually makes me feel much better.

Hope that Dylan has remained vomit free. I will do some pro-biotic research after the festive season is over. Paws crossed that Dylan takes well to this.


----------



## lorilu

xxxxx


----------



## Forester

Dylan would like me to wish all of his supporters a very Merry Christmas.But for you all helping to keep his slave on track his life would be a more miserable one.










Incidentally he has been vomit free since I dropped the wild boar from his diet.


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## Mrs Funkin

Merry Christmas @Forester - here's to 2019 having more vomit free days. Love to you from me and Oscar the Delicate xx


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Merry Christmas @Forester - here's to 2019 having more vomit free days. Love to you from me and* Oscar the Delicate x*x


Thank you @Mrs Funkin. I admit that my mental image of Oscar lacks the word " delicate". I think of him as more of a marauder 

Enjoy your day. Vomit free days are always welcome!!!!


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Incidentally he has been vomit free since I dropped the wild boar from his diet.


And he's eating the pork again?


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> And he's eating the pork again?


Yes, he is, thank goodness, although only if it is cut into chunks. Anything minced is rejected.

We had a very small quantity of poo in his tray this morning. It didn't resemble concrete this time, more like granite! He has , however, since produced a decent quantity of relatively normal poo. I've been giving 2 and a 1/2 ml lactulose twice daily so think that I might need to try 3ml.

On the plus side Dylan is eating again, is playful, and appears extremely happy!!!!!


----------



## lorilu

Yay!


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Yes, he is, thank goodness, although only if it is cut into chunks. Anything minced is rejected.
> 
> We had a very small quantity of poo in his tray this morning. It didn't resemble concrete this time, more like granite! He has , however, since produced a decent quantity of relatively normal poo. I've been giving 2 and a 1/2 ml lactulose twice daily so think that I might need to try 3ml.
> 
> On the plus side Dylan is eating again, is playful, and appears extremely happy!!!!!


A word to make you aware (though I don't know how this will help). When I gave my LB lactulose his gut got used to it and I found that I had to gradually increase the dose for it to work


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> A word to make you aware (though I don't know how this will help). When I gave my LB lactulose his gut got used to it and I found that I had to gradually increase the dose for it to work


Thanks for that @SbanR . I 've read that lactulose becomes less effective over time but was hoping that I'd be able to find an alternative way to help with Dylan's constipation before that happens. Can I ask how long LB had been having lactulose before you needed to increase the dose ?

If I'm honest,I'm a little mystified as to why Dylan suddenly has such a problem . Before starting the Ondansetron his poo was a little hard but he was producing poo approximately every 2 to 3 days . I've been led to believe that a frequency of 2 to 3 days is pretty normal for raw fed cats. My only guess as to a cause for the current situation is that Dylan is evacuating absolutely everything in his system leading to it taking ages for another batch to brew.When he does poo there is a large quantity!!!

I intend to discuss the current situation with my vet in the new year. I'd like his view on the use of separate sources of soluble and insoluble fibre. I've been advised that fibre _can _make constipation worse and I definitely don't want to do that! Dylan has motility issues at the best of times due to his fibrosis.


----------



## SbanR

My memory's a little sketchy as its almost 2 years now and I didn't make notes. LB was 16.5 years and had been battling ill health for a few months (heart and what looked like a very mild petit mal).
I know he started with a very low daily dose. Within a matter of weeks I had to give it him twice a day. But his health was failing quite rapidly towards the end. I was thinking I would have to increase the lactulose again when he lost his battle and left me.


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> My memory's a little sketchy as its almost 2 years now and I didn't make notes. LB was 16.5 years and had been battling ill health for a few months (heart and what looked like a very mild petit mal).
> I know he started with a very low daily dose. Within a matter of weeks I had to give it him twice a day. But his health was failing quite rapidly towards the end. I was thinking I would have to increase the lactulose again when he lost his battle and left me.


Oh, I'm so sorry to have enquired about such a distressing situation. I hope that I haven't brought back painful memories.
(((( hugs ))))


----------



## SbanR

He was a lovely boy and remains very dear to me

No worries. You naturally wish to gather as much info as possible to help Dylan. I just wanted you to be aware that it might not be a feasible long term option.
Hugs to you too. Dylan's a very lucky boy to have you for his mum. Xx


----------



## Forester

My main focus at the moment is ensuring that Dylan has adequate intake at the front end along with corresponding output at the back end. ( trying to avoid anything moving in the wrong direction): however I haven't forgotten that the diet still isn't complete.

I'm going to attempt to introduce the nutrients with inadequate levels, one at a time, using Dylan's specially formulated supplement recipe . It's going to involve very small quantities , particularly as I no longer make up large batches of food, but I'm hoping that I can manage it . My small weight scales only go as low as 0.01g so I've ordered some which go to 0.001g .

My plan is to try Vitamin E first as I think that he's less likely to react to a vitamin than he is to a mineral. I know that he needs an extra 2.5g of my vit e to balance 22.6kg meat so that makes it 0.016g vit E per 150g meat. It is normal to introduce new ingredients at only a tiny proportion of the desired level but I can't see that I'm going to be able to add such a small quantity. I'll just have to do my best.

@SbanR , Dylan is currently none too impressed at having me for his mum. Until I started dosing him with lactulose he always spent his evenings cuddled up to me on the sofa. These days he much prefers the top bed of his cat tree!!!

I've ordered Apple Pectin and am currently looking at sources of cellulose in the hope that these will be able to replace the lactulose long term.

ETA The weights of Vit E stated are only appropriate for this particular source of vit E. Another brand, or even another batch might require a different quantity.


----------



## SbanR

I'm sorry you've lost out on Dylan cuddles 
Let's hope it's only temporary. You're still the best mum for Dylan


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## Forester

With 11 vomits, hunger strike , blood on poo and an enema I'm glad to put December 2018 behind me. Still, it's all part of the learning experience. Jan 2019 does at least start with me feeling slightly more positive than I was before Christmas.

Since dropping the Bioglan probiotic and the wild boar Dylan is looking less nauseous and has only been sick on one day out of ten ( although he did vomit twice on that day ).

The poo situation is a bit erratic. 2 ml lactulose caused poo which started too hard then progressed to liquid, with a gap of 6 days between poos. 3ml per dose caused liquid poo after 2 days. I've gone back to giving 2ml and will watch what happens. I think that I'll leave trying to " manipulate" his poop consistency through using fibre(s) until I've had a good chat to my vet. There's no point trying to do too much at once.

I'm currently giving https://www.amazon.co.uk/Natures-Aid-Billion-Probiotic-Capsules-x/dp/B00KOOAFGG until I get the VSL3 sorted. I started with 1/4 capsule but have now increased to a whole capsule per day. Dylan isn't impressed , the capsules are rather large, however it's only a temporary measure.

My scales which are supposedly accurate to 1/1000g have arrived so I'm now adding 50% of the vitamin E required by his bespoke vit/min supplement. I'll give him a couple more days at this level before increasing to the full quota of Vit E.


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## Forester

This morning we have the perfect poo.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> This morning we have the perfect poo.


Yay! What a great thing to wake up to!


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Yay! What a great thing to wake up to!


I'm grinning like I'd just won the lottery.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> I'm grinning like I'd just won the lottery.


I am happy to hear it!


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## SbanR

Forester said:


> This morning we have the perfect poo.


Hooray!!!:Joyful


----------



## Forester

Well, things seem to be looking up. Dylan has only been sick on one of the last thirteen days and he hasn't looked nauseous at all. It also appears that I've found the correct dose of lactulose to produce perfect poo. We had another excellent specimen this morning.

I have been having difficulty medicating Dylan in recent days. I suspect that's partly due to the size of the probiotic capsules ( size 2 at a guess ), and partly because he hates the lactulose. This morning I sprinkled the probiotics onto his breakfast. . . . .and he ate it, every single speck.

His VSL3 probiotics were due for delivery today but haven't arrived. I'm desperately hoping that they'll arrive tomorrow or, failing that, will be stored over the weekend in a very cool place.

Oh, I almost forgot. For the last few days he's been having 50% of the vitamin E stipulated in his supplement . I've made tomorrow's food with the full quota.


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## TriTri

Let’s hope 2019 is Dylan’s lucky year


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## Forester

TriTri said:


> Let's hope 2019 is Dylan's lucky year


Thank you  2018 had started off really well for him ( in comparison to 2016 and 2017 ) before going pear shaped. I'm starting to believe that the reason for the deterioration was the increasing constipation which I initially failed to recognise. Now that we have things moving more easily through his system the situation looks more positive IMHO. Maybe @lorilu was correct in thinking that he was still making progress , it's just that the progress was being hidden by the constipation.

I've also wondered whether the lactulose is acting as a prebiotic and therefore assisting with colonisation of his gut by friendly bacteria. On the subject of bacteria Dylan's VSL3 which was scheduled for chill box delivery last Friday still hasn't appeared. I'll be contacting the supplier later on though I'm wondering whether my order missed Thursday's courier run and will be sent today.

ETA The VSL3 missed the cut off time for despatch on Thursday so will be sent today.


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## TriTri

Yes that makes perfect sense. 

Let’s hope the delivery arrives very soon.


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## Mrs Funkin

I'm so glad that 2019 is off to a positive start for you and Dylan, constipation in humans has a huge effect, I am sure it must in smaller mammals.

Onwards and upwards @Forester ! Happy '19


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## Gallifreyangirl

Good luck with Dylan for 2019.


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## Forester

Gallifreyangirl said:


> Good luck with Dylan for 2019.


Thank you .

I've just checked my records and he's only been sick once in the last 11 days ( I hope that I haven't jinxed things by saying that ).

The VSL3 arrived early this morning in a package containing an ice pack which was still frozen. I don't intend to start introducing it until next week as we're still consolidating Vit E.


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## Forester

I've started introducing the VSL3 probiotic; the first 2 days giving 0.1g which is approx. 20% of the target dose, today upping the dose to 0.25 g. I'd intended to give 0.2g today but Dylan was pestering me for his breakfast, headbutted my arm , and he got a little extra. He seems to like the taste which is a bonus. It's a right PITA when supplements have to be pilled.

His vomiting is much better than it was when he was constipated, 3 in the last 15 days. *If *this rate continues we will be back at the level we were at the start of 2018.

The constipation issue still needs attention. 2.5 ml lactulose twice daily achieves the consistency of poo which my vet requested ( rather on the soft side ) however pooing is much less frequent than it used to be . It's taking twice as long as pre lactulose to trigger defecation . The consequence is that he's producing twice as much at one time. He also *hates *the lactulose.

I've been wondering whether a lack of magnesium ( he doesn't get bone ) might play a hand in the constipation however my calculations indicate that his magnesium consumption is only slightly short of what he should be getting. There again, is he absorbing all that he should?

I'm relatively confident that the Vit E from Dylan's bespoke supplement doesn't seem to be a problem so am considering what to introduce next ( once he's settled with the VSL3 ) . I'm leaning towards the B vits although it does contain a small quantity of choline in the form of choline bitartrate , something he's previously been unable to take. I had planned to go for the ingredients which I felt were more likely to be tolerated but now I don't know .


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## Mrs Funkin

Great start to the year Dylan, most pleasing to read about your reduced vomiting  Lactulose is pretty grim, even for humans who "get" what it's for, so I'm not surprised your boy isn't a fan @Forester - would mechanical constipation relief be a route you could explore (sorry!), mind you, I'm not sure how cats react to glycerin suppositories! Also it's not really a long term solution, just pondering...

I am glad that you're feeling strong enough to contemplate the next supplement introduction, Forester, I'm sure sometimes you just want to hide away from it all but know that you can't and won't, for the sake of Dylan. Onwards  Here's to the rest of January being as positive.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Great start to the year Dylan, most pleasing to read about your reduced vomiting  Lactulose is pretty grim, even for humans who "get" what it's for, so I'm not surprised your boy isn't a fan @Forester - would mechanical constipation relief be a route you could explore (sorry!), mind you, I'm not sure how cats react to glycerin suppositories! Also it's not really a long term solution, just pondering...
> 
> I am glad that you're feeling strong enough to contemplate the next supplement introduction, Forester, I'm sure sometimes you just want to hide away from it all but know that you can't and won't, for the sake of Dylan. Onwards  Here's to the rest of January being as positive.


Oh Mrs F there are times when I wonder whether you've ever peeped in through my windows . You somehow instinctively seem to know what's been going on. During one of Dylan's episodes of constipation I did wonder whether I could use a gylcerine suppository. I even cut one down to what I hoped would be an acceptable size. I couldn't do it !!!. I was worried that I'd cause him pain.

Incidentally I do have a micro enema, the same type as those used by my vets ,which was donated to the cause by an extremely kind forum member. I can assure you that enema has spent several days on my kitchen worktop whilst I considered whether I had the courage to attempt using it. I was worried that that I might try to insert it too far, or not far enough, or would cause Dylan pain. I couldn't do that so opted to go to the vet. I knew that Dylan wouldn't be impressed by the procedure but he would at least have it administered by a Professional.

This afternoon I've read that a common side effect of cetirizine , which Dylan takes in the hope that it might help his eosinophilic inflammation, is constipation. When I next talk to my vet I will discuss this.

If I'm honest, I feel that the constipation issue makes getting Dylan's diet complete more urgent. I _am _feeling quite strong and able to cope with the prospects of a setback at the moment, (successfully adding the Vit E is motivational ), but I have to do this for Dylan. A complete diet isn't optional, it's something I have to find a way to achieve.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Forester said:


> Oh Mrs F there are times when I wonder whether you've ever peeped in through my windows . You somehow instinctively seem to know what's been going on. During one of Dylan's episodes of constipation I did wonder whether I could use a gylcerine suppository. I even cut one down to what I hoped would be an acceptable size. I couldn't do it !!!. I was worried that I'd cause him pain.
> 
> Incidentally I do have a micro enema, the same type as those used by my vets ,which was donated to the cause by an extremely kind forum member. I can assure you that enema has spent several days on my kitchen worktop whilst I considered whether I had the courage to attempt using it. I was worried that that I might try to insert it too far, or not far enough, or would cause Dylan pain. I couldn't do that so opted to go to the vet. I knew that Dylan wouldn't be impressed by the procedure but he would at least have it administered by a Professional.
> 
> This afternoon I've read that a common side effect of cetirizine , which Dylan takes in the hope that it might help his eosinophilic inflammation, is constipation. When I next talk to my vet I will discuss this.
> 
> If I'm honest, I feel that the constipation issue makes getting Dylan's diet complete more urgent. I _am _feeling quite strong and able to cope with the prospects of a setback at the moment, (successfully adding the Vit E is motivational ), but I have to do this for Dylan. A complete diet isn't optional, it's something I have to find a way to achieve.


Oh gosh, yes, the fear of the suppository insertion. I remember well the first time I administered one to a newborn (not the *whole* one, it was about a quarter, sliced with a scalpel blade!), it worked very rapidly but whether it was the suppository or the stimulation of the insertion process I don't know. In actual fact, we often would advise a mummy with a slow to poop baby to do what a cat does to it's kittens, to teach it to go to the toilet i.e. gently stimulate around the anus with a damp cotton wool ball (simulates a cat licking the kitten, we obviously never advise that haha!). Would Dylan allow you to try that? With a cotton wool ball, not licking!!!! The worst thing about inserting a piece of a glycerine suppository is that it's fairly bendy when it's not a whole one, so obviously as the natural sphincter reaction is to tighten when something goes near it to go in rather than out can make it a bit tricky. Apologies if I am teaching you to suck eggs, I just think there must be things we can use from humans that transfer to other mammals. Take great heart from the Vit E success, you must take the wins where you can get them - each small win adds up.

As for peeping through your windows...


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh gosh, yes, the fear of the suppository insertion. I remember well the first time I administered one to a newborn (not the *whole* one, it was about a quarter, sliced with a scalpel blade!), it worked very rapidly but whether it was the suppository or the stimulation of the insertion process I don't know. In actual fact, we often would advise a mummy with a slow to poop baby to do what a cat does to it's kittens, to teach it to go to the toilet i.e. gently stimulate around the anus with a damp cotton wool ball (simulates a cat licking the kitten, we obviously never advise that haha!). Would Dylan allow you to try that? With a cotton wool ball, not licking!!!! The worst thing about inserting a piece of a glycerine suppository is that it's fairly bendy when it's not a whole one, so obviously as the natural sphincter reaction is to tighten when something goes near it to go in rather than out can make it a bit tricky. Apologies if I am teaching you to suck eggs, I just think there must be things we can use from humans that transfer to other mammals. Take great heart from the Vit E success, you must take the wins where you can get them - each small win adds up.
> 
> As for peeping through your windows...


Oh yes !!!! The warm flannel stimulation of nether regions has been employed on several occasions,( a tip I was given by someone whose advice I value very highly  ) and it has worked , although not every time.

It's funny , I would have no qualms whatsoever about performing such tasks for a human, but Dylan ? I'd be mortified if I caused him any pain, or betrayed his trust in me .

It must take real courage to administer to a newborn for the first time.

*Any *tips that anyone can give me , which could help Dylan are extremely welcome !!!!!!


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## lorilu

@Forester I have just found out that lactulose comes in a powder form. I suppose that won't work for Dylan though,since he won't eat anything that has stuff added to it.


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## Mrs Funkin

@Forester I'm assuming you syringe his lactulose? I'm just wondering if there is a way that it could be done without it touching the tastebuds? Shame it's not sweet really, then he wouldn't really taste it (although the texture is bad enough!). I guess syringing into the cheek pocket is difficult, but preferable to centrally as he'd taste every last bit. Would he tolerate it being loaded into empty pill capsules?

Glad it's not just me with the same ideas about getting him to go to the loo. If only Dylan knew he had all these people all over the world reading about him and pondering his condition.


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## lorilu

Mrs Funkin said:


> Shame it's not sweet really,


I believe lactulose is sweet, (it is a sugar) and very very sticky. It's horrible stuff, in my opinion based on experience with a megacolon cat many years ago. However I think Forester isn't having too much trouble dosing Dylan with it?

I only just today remembered reading a reference to powdered form (it may have been in this thread, I don't remember where or when) because my Jennie (colon cancer) is to the point in her disease of needing stool softeners and lactulose is what is recommended. I don't want to use it (when I thought the only option was syringing liquid) but my vet doesn't want me to use mineral oil, she recommends miralax.

I don't like miralax either. Though I did give it to her tonight while I try to figure all this out.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> @Forester I have just found out that lactulose comes in a powder form. I suppose that won't work for Dylan though,since he won't eat anything that has stuff added to it.


I've just had a quick search for lactulose in powder form and it doesn't appear to be available in the U K , or not that I've found anyway. Thanks for the suggestion though .As you say my chances of getting a powder into him are minimal unless I place it in gel caps.



Mrs Funkin said:


> @Forester I'm assuming you syringe his lactulose? I'm just wondering if there is a way that it could be done without it touching the tastebuds? Shame it's not sweet really, then he wouldn't really taste it (although the texture is bad enough!). I guess syringing into the cheek pocket is difficult, but preferable to centrally as he'd taste every last bit. Would he tolerate it being loaded into empty pill capsules?
> 
> Glad it's not just me with the same ideas about getting him to go to the loo. If only Dylan knew he had all these people all over the world reading about him and pondering his condition.


Yes I do syringe the lactulose. I've " refined " my technique somewhat since our first attempts. It's a case of trying to keep one step ahead of Dylan's endeavours at avoidance. Initially I discharged the syringe in several short bursts into the side of Dylan's mouth. This resulted in lactulose either being sprayed into my face ( yes, @lorilu , it is very sticky and can make one heck of a mess of your glasses! ), or dribbled out of the side. Poor Dylan developed a huge bare patch under his chin on one side where the lactulose stuck the hair together, which then got pulled out when he washed or was combed.

Syringing into the centre of the mouth as far back as possible resulted in him " blowing" part of the dose straight back out again. My latest ploy is to aim for the roof of the mouth as far back as possible. I'm assuming that this method avoids contact between the lactulose and some taste buds as it seems to work at the moment. ( Touches wood ).

Dylan is currently having a total of 5 or 6 ml per day. With size 3 capsules holding approx 0.25ml, I'd need to give 20+ capsules per day. That's a shame.

Dylan doesn't enjoy lactulose administration, and neither do I , but I see it as a minor issue in comparison to dealing with all the other issues which come with Dylan's IBD.It's a small price to pay for keeping things moving in the right direction.

I can assure you , knowing that Dylan has a whole army of dedicated cat slaves fighting his cause is a great comfort to me. Every one of you makes things easier just by being there.



lorilu said:


> I believe lactulose is sweet, (it is a sugar) and very very sticky. It's horrible stuff, in my opinion based on experience with a megacolon cat many years ago. However I think Forester isn't having too much trouble dosing Dylan with it?
> 
> I only just today remembered reading a reference to powdered form (it may have been in this thread, I don't remember where or when) because my Jennie (colon cancer) is to the point in her disease of needing stool softeners and lactulose is what is recommended. I don't want to use it (when I thought the only option was syringing liquid) but my vet doesn't want me to use mineral oil, she recommends miralax.
> 
> I don't like miralax either. Though I did give it to her tonight while I try to figure all this out.


No, neither of us enjoy the process of giving lactulose but we're managing. I might be dreaming but I'd like to think that we may not need to use it forever.

I wouldn't want to use mineral oil either, and I'm afraid that have no experience with miralax .I hope that you will be able to find a solution for Jennie which will work for both of you. She is truly blessed to have such a devoted, caring and sensitive slave in her time of need.xx


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I wouldn't want to use mineral oil either, and I'm afraid that have no experience with miralax


Well I would rather use mineral oil over all of the other options. But vet is pretty adamant against it. I won't be using the miralax again because of the feet swelling. Vet is skeptical that this was the cause. I am not, because it has now been 24 hours since her last dose and her feet are almost completely back to normal. The powdered lactulose (kristalose)..may be too expensive if I am doing the math right, but I'm going to ask the tech to check on it for me before asking for a prescription.

So I'm back to choices of the lactulose (which I just hate to do to her) or mineral oil (which vet doesn't want me to use).


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Well I would rather use mineral oil over all of the other options. But vet is pretty adamant against it. I won't be using the miralax again because of the feet swelling. Vet is skeptical that this was the cause. I am not, because it has now been 24 hours since her last dose and her feet are almost completely back to normal. The powdered lactulose (kristalose)..may be too expensive if I am doing the math right, but I'm going to ask the tech to check on it for me before asking for a prescription.
> 
> So I'm back to choices of the lactulose (which I just hate to do to her) or mineral oil (which vet doesn't want me to use).


Desperately hoping that the powdered lactulose will prove affordable, and that Jennie's paw swelling will have been caused by the miralax and nothing more sinister. Please just remind yourself that no one could do more for her than you are. If love could beat this Jennie would not now have cancer.xxxxxx


----------



## Forester

The introduction of VSL3 probiotics to Dylan's dietary regime seems to be going according to plan. We're up to 0.3g per day and I expect to be giving 0.5g , which is the target dose, by next Monday. I will give him a week on that dose before I start my next introduction.

Dylan's vomit total for January currently stands at 3.


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## Mrs Funkin

Still three? Amazing! Tolerating the new probiotics? Even more amazing! Oh @Forester I'm so so so pleased for you and Dylan. Long may it continue.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Still three? Amazing! Tolerating the new probiotics? Even more amazing! Oh @Forester I'm so so so pleased for you and Dylan. Long may it continue.


Oh @Mrs Funkin please don't get too excited. This is Dylan . He has a habit of putting in a really good run only to suddenly start puking for England for no apparent reason. I do believe that the improvement in " through flow" brought about by the lactulose is helping enormously with the vomiting however IBD is a never ending roller coaster.

TBH I've never had an issue with him not tolerating probiotics, though there will always be a first time, but he won't always eat them willingly. I am still trying to decide which vitamin or mineral from his bespoke supplement I should add next.

On an encouraging note , I had a visitor on Wednesday who had not seen Dylan for about 9 months. She is convinced that his muscle mass has increased substantially since she last saw him.

P S Thanks for the encouragement .


----------



## Forester

Why didn't I keep my trap shut ? Number 4 has just put in an appearance.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Ahhh, I believe that the Law of Sod has just put in an appearance. Pesky. Sorry @Forester i shall refrain from the proverbial leaping about in future (even though I don't really believe you can "jinx" something, you can never be too careful!).

Hope you're feeling okay Dylan, despite the spuke.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Ahhh, I believe that the Law of Sod has just put in an appearance. Pesky. Sorry @Forester i shall refrain from the proverbial leaping about in future (even though I don't really believe you can "jinx" something, you can never be too careful!).
> 
> Hope you're feeling okay Dylan, despite the spuke.


LOL . Not *your* fault @Mrs Funkin . These things just tend to happen. I do always try to find a reason for it - it contained quite a lot of hair although that hair was loose and not matted. It was " due". ( 6 days since the last one ). Interestingly we had poo this morning - a bit on the soft side IMHO , although just what my vet wanted.

I've only been giving Dylan the cetirizine on alternate days since I discovered that constipation can be a side effect. I really must discuss all this with my vet but I always like to get to a relatively stable situation before I give him an update. I hate it when I describe the state of play only for things to change rapidly. I did that with the Ondansetron , telling him that it was the most wonderful drug ever formulated only for Dylan's digestive system to come to a complete halt.

Dylan is feeling fine  ( if lying on his back kneading the air for 15 minutes is anything to go by ). Thanks. The vomiting rarely bothers him for more than a minute. He's been known to sit by his dish demanding a refill before I've even finished clearing up!

I have been impressed with reviews of another probiotic which I'm considering adding to the equation at some stage. I think it's the one which @chillminx regularly recommends.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BioGaia-60...r=1-5&keywords=biogaia+probiotic+infant+drops

I believe that the strain of bacteria is one frequently reported to help with constipation. This morning I've also noticed that it contains medium chain triglycerides, which were suggested to me by the Raw for IBD group, as well as sunflower oil. I have sunflower lecithin in my cupboard as I was planning to use that to try to get some extra choline into the diet. It could kill 3 birds with one stone, so to speak.

There are so many things which I would like to try, although I still need to work on getting this diet complete. I have to be patient though. More than one change at a time leads me to not knowing what helps and what exacerbates the situation.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Indeed. Counfounding variables. The bothersome little things...glad your boy is feeling okay despite the vom.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Indeed. Counfounding variables. The bothersome little things...glad your boy is feeling okay despite the vom.


They certainly are bothersome!


----------



## Forester

Dylan didn't eat well yesterday, and is even worse today. Breakfast was however consumed with relative enthusiasm, shortly before being deposited on the kitchen floor!. I think that I could well have being trying to introduce the VSL3# too quickly. .

I'm in two minds whether to go more slowly with the VSL , or to revert to the Pro 30 max probiotic which Dylan seemed to be doing well with.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Dylan didn't eat well yesterday, and is even worse today. Breakfast was however consumed with relative enthusiasm, shortly before being deposited on the kitchen floor!. I think that I could well have being trying to introduce the VSL3# too quickly. .
> 
> I'm in two minds whether to go more slowly with the VSL , or to revert to the Pro 30 max probiotic which Dylan seemed to be doing well with.


Oh dear, poor Dylan. Hope he does better, whichever you decide Forester


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Oh dear, poor Dylan. Hope he does better, whichever you decide Forester


I'm telling myself that the VSL brand of probiotic isn't essential. What matters is that Dylan gets a decent dose of probiotic strains which agree with him and which he will take easily. ( I don't think that he likes the taste of VSL ). If I continue with the pro 30 max whilst working on the completeness of the diet I can always go back to the VSL at a later date. I have been giving the pro 30 max alongside the VSL3 so dropping the VSL wouldn't be a massive disruption. . . . .It looks as though I've just made my decision.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I think that I could well have being trying to introduce the VSL3# too quickly. .


You did seem to be doing it rather quickly, I wondered about it. x


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> I'm telling myself that the VSL brand of probiotic isn't essential. What matters is that Dylan gets a decent dose of probiotic strains which agree with him and which he will take easily. ( I don't think that he likes the taste of VSL ). If I continue with the pro 30 max whilst working on the completeness of the diet I can always go back to the VSL at a later date. I have been giving the pro 30 max alongside the VSL3 so dropping the VSL wouldn't be a massive disruption. . . . .It looks as though I've just made my decision.


Good


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> You did seem to be doing it rather quickly, I wondered about it. x


I know. If I'm completely honest there's an elephant in the room , if you know what I mean. The incomplete nature of Dylan's diet hangs over me , all. of. the. time. Despite my vet telling me not to worry about it, I do, particularly since the constipation set in. With me still needing to add more B vits, more iron, potassium, copper,and iodine , not to mention possibly some more magnesium , and choline there is so much that I need to do, not just for the value of each element but for the synergy between them.

But for the constipation issue I would probably have backed up with the VSL ,then tried to increase more slowly but how much time do I have? Is Dylan already suffering from deficiencies?It doesn't help that Dylan isn't keen on the taste of the VSL and it's so b;**dy difficult to handle. Once the sachets are opened the contents absorb moisture and become so much more difficult to handle and to measure out accurately. I could try cramming it into empty capsules but is it worth the hassle when he seemed to cope well with the pro 30 max?

The VSL3 has an expiry date of April 2020 and I have 9 unopened sachets. They're not going to come to any harm in the fridge.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I'm just popping in for a *wwwaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh*

Oscar hasn't had a poop for 48 hours (he is often 36-42 hours, so that in itself wasn't bothering me *too* much), then he went outside and did a poop. Fairly small-ish (only about 45g, don't ask, I don't often weigh his output I was just wondering!), but his output is smaller with more Sheba than with Felix and he's been loving the Sheba, so he's been having more. Anyway, I'm out of synch with the story. He didn't eat much breakfast this morning (Felix lamb), I came in from shopping and I gave him some Sheba lamb (not a whole pouch, he's always been fine with it) and he ate some, went out and did his poop, ate some grass, came in and finished the rest and then re-gurgitated the Sheba, complete with lots of grass, walked away and re-gurgitated the rest of it. Obviously 15 minutes later he was crying for food, so I gave him 30g of Sheba chicken and that's been fine. He's no re-gurgitated since New Year's Eve, hence the *waaaaaa*. I suspect it's to do with either the poop delay, or he's due a hairball. There were a few loose hairs in the re-gurge but not many and certainly not a ball - but he looks a little greasy down his spine, which happens when he's getting a bit hairy internally. I couldn't see any hair of note in his poop.

I'm obviously monitoring him but I just feel sad. Though I'm not sad about his reaction to re-gurgitation, when he first came to us and did it, he literally ran away into a corner, cowering...whereas now he sits and watches that I clean it up properly  Human daddy talks to him too and gives him some love whilst I clean it and inspect the pile of vom.

I should go and make sure there's no more vom in the garden...he's currently settled in the conservatory.

Bless the poor little chap, we had such a nice lie in this morning too. Sorry for rambling about nothing very important when I compare it to what some cats go through...here he is before a nightmare woke him up!

ETA: he looks a funny shape in this picture, he isn't in real life, honestly.


----------



## Forester

@Mrs Funkin Feel free to waah all you like. Anyone who'se made it this far in this thread will understand. Please don't feel sad though. Oscar has made so much progress since he was lucky enough to find you. and Mr F. I'm sad that he's been feeling a little rough today but pleased that he's realised that he won't be chastised when he vomits. He looks a picture of happiness asleep on your bed.

I too am waiting for poo yet again ( from Dylan!!!! ). I've increased the lactulose slightly today, or at least I hope that I have ( the measurement scale has worn off the syringe ).

I bought a pack of cat grass on impulse about a week ago and it's now about 5 inches tall.I'm too worried that Dylan will eat enough to make himself sick, or will get a blade stuck up his nose so I've been keeping it inside a propagator. Dylan is desperate to get to the grass and has been lifting the lid to the propagator. This morning I snipped a few stalks and then cut them into minute pieces which I sprinkled onto his food. He loves it !. Whether it will be any help with the constipation II have no idea but I'm telling myself that it will provide fibre as well as act as a prebiotic.

@SbanR , I'm sorry I've only just spotted your last post.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Heh, I have a great image of Dylan and the grass, peeping under the lid  Oscar *loves* grass...it's like having a little goat trimming the edges of the lawn. He eats grass every single day and has only vommed once in over three weeks. Human daddy did find some blades of grass in his poop the other day though (!!).

Please let me send you some syringes, really truly I am happy to. Just PM me your address and I'll pop some in the post (1ml, 2.5ml, 5ml, something different?).

Right, off to find the boy some supper. Thanks @Forester - and don't forget to send me a message with your details xx


----------



## SbanR

No worries @Forester


----------



## Forester

Haha @Mrs Funkin.Dylan didn't peep under the lid of the propagator. He lifted it with one paw ( it was raised off the worktop in order to clear the top of the grass ) then dropped it from a height, several times!!!!

This morning Dylan has vomited then followed with poop 2 hours later. I was pleased to see one if not the other.

Thank you Mrs F . I will now take you up on your kind offer.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Hurrah for poop! Booo for vom. Here's to more of one and less of the other, please, Dylan. Will message you @Forester


----------



## Paddypaws

I’ve got Miralax I can send if you want to try it on Dylan. Woody used to eat it added to food without any fuss, but then again Woody would eat pretty much anything.


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I've got Miralax I can send if you want to try it on Dylan. Woody used to eat it added to food without any fuss, but then again Woody would eat pretty much anything.


That's very kind of you @Paddypaws.. I "think " that we're OK with the lactulose at the moment. Dylan is producing poo of the desired consistency, although not as often as my vet requested. With Dylan's gut being so delicate I'm somewhat reluctant to use anything which might possibly irritate the gut lining.

- - - - - - -

As for the transition - today I've started adding a proportion of the B vits from Dylan's bespoke supplement to his food. The amount required in each mini batch of 150g meat plus supplements is tiny, just 6mg . With B vits being water soluble I've mixed sufficient B vits to balance 11 kg meat with 11 ml of water meaning that I need 1ml solution per kg meat .

I'm harbouring a dream that once the diet is complete constipation won't be quite such an issue.

Dylan has been going berserk trying to get to the cat grass . I've severely restricted how much I've been letting him have as he's been sick twice after just a tiny amount each time.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan has been going berserk trying to get to the cat grass . I've severely restricted how much I've been letting him have as he's been sick twice after just a tiny amount each time.


Mazy cat cannot tolerate grass at all. It created such havoc with her digestive system I had to stop taking them out into their yard. I miss taking them out terribly, but, with the porch cat proofed for them, they never seemed to miss it at all. They haven't been out in the yard since autumn 2015.

Perhaps it would be better not to give it to him any more, and remove it so he isn't always looking for it? It might be causing him some stress if he's trying to get at it? You could try growing a little pot of cat nip. Or just get some good quality organic dried leaf and flowers to sprinkle around for him now and then, though he might prefer a fresh leaf now and then..


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Mazy cat cannot tolerate grass at all. It created such havoc with her digestive system I had to stop taking them out into their yard. I miss taking them out terribly, but, with the porch cat proofed for them, they never seemed to miss it at all. They haven't been out in the yard since autumn 2015.
> 
> Perhaps it would be better not to give it to him any more, and remove it so he isn't always looking for it? It might be causing him some stress if he's trying to get at it? You could try growing a little pot of cat nip. Or just get some good quality organic dried leaf and flowers to sprinkle around for him now and then, though he might prefer a fresh leaf now and then..


Strangely he's lost interest in the grass ( probably because I stopped letting him have any ). I'm currently trying to find somewhere to relocate it to as I'd like to remove it from his sight but not actually kill it.( In case i want to use it later ) Up until now the grass has enjoyed conditions similar to being in a heated greenhouse so I'm reluctant to put it outside in the snow.

Dylan is fanatical about anything green so , other than the grass I don't have _any_ plants indoors. I've always had to be exceptionally careful with cabbage, lettuce, beans and the like ; dried catnip too. He eats them and then vomits, every time. . I'd been hoping that by almost pureeing the grass it wouldn't have adverse effects.Now I realise the error of my ways.


----------



## Forester

January '19's vomit total was 8 , better than December's 11 although higher than last January's 7. I had thought that the total was going to be 7 but Dylan squeezed in an extra vomit shortly before midnight.

Transition wise I've increased Dylan's B vits so that he now gets 67% of the quantity from his bespoke recipe. He's now getting pork + calcium carbonate + taurine + cod liver oil + Vit E + 67% of his B vits. Its slow progress but progress nevertheless.

Dylan has now decided that he won't eat the Pro 30 max probiotics. As it seems clear that probiotics will have to be fed decanted into empty capsules in future I'm going to use up the pro 30 max whilst gradually changing back to the VSL3. As I aim to leave at least 2 weeks between adding new ingredients I'll give Dylan a full 2 weeks of 100% B vits before changing the probiotic.


----------



## Forester

Well, we all know what happens to the best laid plans. . . . . . . they're best not aired anywhere near Dylan. A couple of vomits in fairly quick succession have led me to drop the B vits back to 33% of target dose. It looks as though I need to go more slowly.

Constipation wise we're currently on 4 days and counting. If I'm completely honest I'm finding management of Dylan's input and output completely exhausting at the moment. I have discussed Dylan's constipation with my vet today. He suggested trying a Katalax type product but I've opted to stick with the lactulose . I believe that lactulose is kinder to the gut lining.

The cat grass has been consigned to the great outdoors. It had been a spur of the moment purchase anyway.

Oh well, best foot forward is all that we can do.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh booo @Forester (if it's any consolation, Oscar has just eaten and re-gurged his dinner, then obviously shouted for more). As far as the B12 goes, hurry slowly...or teach him to lick marmite off his paws *tongue buried firmly in my cheek*

I do have a great mental image now of you with an Input/Output chart - send me back to my days of working on the Labour Ward. I'm not surprised you are feeling worn out with it all - and you do have more than just Dylan to worry about too. Onwards, Forester, there's nobody better for him than you.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh booo @Forester (if it's any consolation, Oscar has just eaten and re-gurged his dinner, then obviously shouted for more). As far as the B12 goes, hurry slowly...or teach him to lick marmite off his paws *tongue buried firmly in my cheek*
> 
> I do have a great mental image now of you with an Input/Output chart - send me back to my days of working on the Labour Ward. I'm not surprised you are feeling worn out with it all - and you do have more than just Dylan to worry about too. Onwards, Forester, there's nobody better for him than you.


Oh no, it's so disheartening when you get a setback ( referring to Oscar ). Looking on the bright side he can't be feeling too bad if he's already asking for a refill.

Sadly it's not just B12 I'm trying to incorporate into Dylan's food. It's all B vits. He's already reacted to choline bitartrate , further back in the transition, but I am hoping that I can get away with this B complex because the proportion of the choline bitartrate is very small. A couple of vomits won't put me off , it's just caused me to slow down. It's the " lack of throughflow " which makes me weary.

The whole vomiting regularly / IBD scenario has been going full on for over 5 years now and it does drag you down. Never mind, I only have to gaze into those eyes which can melt my heart for it all to be worth it.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

(I like the gazing at Dylan bit, not the IBD thing)


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> (I like the gazing at Dylan bit, not the IBD thing)


I like that too. It sounds cheesy but I only have to look at him when he's looking cute lying on the bed beside me to feel an overwhelming love and desire to protect him. None of this is his fault, poor soul. He's put up with everything without ever showing any aggression. Us humans could learn a thing or two about how to behave with others from watching cats .

Hoping that Oscar is feeling better today and has resisted the temptation to share his food with others!

ETA I'm now on intensive poo watch as nothing materialised overnight. Sigh. . . .

I 'm considering attacking a suppository with a potato peeler. Give me front end issues rather than this any day. I'm not good at waiting, and waiting.


----------



## lorilu

All paws crossed for poop xxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> All paws crossed for poop xxxxxxxxxx


Thanks , I'm here chewing my nails ( something I've never done before ) whilst Dylan is sleeping in the top bed of his tree, snoring gently, and probably dreaming of chasing butterflies.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Heh, hope that the Poop Fairy has visited. I always found the best thing to slice a suppository with was a scalpel blade or stitch cutter. I always felt better as they were a sterile item, even though I know where they are going. If you're going down the suppository route and want a stitch cutter or two sending, that's easy to remedy. Let me know. 

No vom so far today from Oscar. Thank you for asking


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Heh, hope that the Poop Fairy has visited. I always found the best thing to slice a suppository with was a scalpel blade or stitch cutter. I always felt better as they were a sterile item, even though I know where they are going. If you're going down the suppository route and want a stitch cutter or two sending, that's easy to remedy. Let me know.
> 
> No vom so far today from Oscar. Thank you for asking


Well done Oscar . Spreading your food about is no way to repay your slaves for keeping you in the lap of luxury.

I retrieved the Vaseline from the bathroom cupboard in preparation for " the procedure" then decided that feeding Vaseline might be a better idea than attempting to give a suppository. I've spent the afternoon following Dylan around with my little jar ready to plant a blob anywhere on his body which I could reach! Dylan seems to think that it's a new game.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh I have *such* a great mental image again


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh I have *such* a great mental image again


 I had hoped that a blob on the bum might assist in more ways than one however so far Dylan's only production has been a small vomit under the bed. I've put him outside in his run, which is his favourite place to poo, but am not holding my breath.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Clockwise abdominal massage (I assume peristalsis is the same direction in a cat as a human, maybe it's not, I'm off to ask google), a gentle cleaning around the anus with a damp cotton wool or two...and then quick pop in with quarter of a suppository. Ta daaaaa! 

Sorry he's been sick again


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Clockwise abdominal massage (I assume peristalsis is the same direction in a cat as a human, maybe it's not, I'm off to ask google), a gentle cleaning around the anus with a damp cotton wool or two...and then quick pop in with quarter of a suppository. Ta daaaaa!
> 
> Sorry he's been sick again


It's not your fault he's been sick however ; to quote the advert for the Halifax contactless card " WE GOT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!"    about 5 " of it. Phew, this isn't good for my nerves!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh yes @Paddypaws taught me the trick of a quick massage to the anus. As for the quick pop in with the quarter of a suppository I wish that you lived closer LOL. Would 1/4 be the correct size then . . . for future reference.

Dylan is currently enjoying a wash but I think that I need to lie down!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Yes, we did a quarter to half for a newborn, given that a cat and a newborn baby weigh about the same, I'd be tempted to do a quarter (size wise), though the half rather than the quarter did hold it's shape better, making it slightly easier to insert.

This was my recent view: I'm totally gobsmacked! Obviously human daddy is just resting gently. Apologies for the grainy photo, it's a zoom in as I didn't want to disturb my boys together


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Yes, we did a quarter to half for a newborn, given that a cat and a newborn baby weigh about the same, I'd be tempted to do a quarter (size wise), though the half rather than the quarter did hold it's shape better, making it slightly easier to insert.
> 
> This was my recent view: I'm totally gobsmacked! Obviously human daddy is just resting gently. Apologies for the grainy photo, it's a zoom in as I didn't want to disturb my boys together
> 
> View attachment 392162


Oh bless them !!!!!. That's true trust and togetherness!!!!!!!!. Your boys look made for each other.  

LOL I've just re read your comment about a cat and a newborn weighing the same. Yesterday Dylan was 5.61kg! ( yes, I know that you meant _approximately _the same  )


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## Mrs Funkin

Well, if he's 5.61kg (Oscar is 5.2) then I'd go the half  

I've only ever delivered one baby over 5kg...


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## SbanR

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well, if he's 5.61kg (Oscar is 5.2) then I'd go the half
> 
> I've only ever delivered one baby over 5kg...


I pity the poor woman delivering a 5+k baby


----------



## Mrs Funkin

It was all good...like shelling peas  it’s not the size of the baby that’s the most important thing, it’s how it’s positioned.


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## Paddypaws

[QUOTE="

Ahh yes @Paddypaws taught me the trick of a quick massage to the anus. [/QUOTE]
Oh my god! That's my reputation down the drain!
FWIW, I found with Woody that even gently inserting a cotton bud dipped in liquid glycerine seemed to have the desired effect. Anyway, I'm mightily 'relieved' to hear that the eagle has landed and both you and Dyl can relax


----------



## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> [QUOTE="
> 
> Ahh yes @Paddypaws taught me the trick of a quick massage to the anus.


Oh my god! That's my reputation down the drain!
FWIW, I found with Woody that even gently inserting a cotton bud dipped in liquid glycerine seemed to have the desired effect. Anyway, I'm mightily 'relieved' to hear that the eagle has landed and both you and Dyl can relax[/QUOTE]

Sorry!!!!:Sorry It was meant to be a compliment. In future I will instead use the phrase " a highly regarded consultant ".


----------



## Forester

The midweek constipation crisis has made me alter my priorities somewhat . I've therefore tweaked the plan that I formulated earlier in the week.

Hours of research on the effects of different strains of probiotics has made me decide to concentrate on trying to use these, and prebiotics, to improve Dylan's gut motility before making more alterations to his food. I will leave the amount of B vits included from his bespoke supplement at 33% for now.

I now have some peace of mind in the form of a supply of miralax which I believe tends to be more effective for constipation than lactulose. I'm not going to rush into using it though as there is some evidence that it can have an adverse effect on the microbiome. I'll keep it as a last resort.

I'm currently trying to gradually transition Dylan from the promax 30 probiotic to the VSL3. I've also bought a bottle of the Bio Gaia L reuteri which has been shown to help with constipation in humans. In addition to the L reuteri the Bio Gaia contains a tiny amount of MCT oil which I've been advised by the Raw for IBD group to use. Unfortunately I've also read that L reuteri can cause problems where there is histamine intolerance.Dylan is on an antihistamine though we're not completely sure whether it's doing anything or not.

I'm also thinking again about introducing prebiotics to Dylan's regime. Dylan's lactulose acts as a prebiotic and I do have a bottle of the phage prebiotic which I bought a short while back. The logic for introducing the phage is that it targets and kills E coli which are then eaten by " good" bacteria. I also have sachets of Bimuno prebiotic. 

This morning I was rewarded ( I chose that word carefully ) with a large poo which was actually on the soft side. Sadly , Dylan couldn't have me thinking that I might have made some progress so he then followed up by leaving his lunch on the kitchen table. Oh well, life with Dylan is never boring!!!!!!


----------



## lorilu

Hurray for POOP! (sorry about the the other though. Like you say, never a dull moment)


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Hurray for POOP! (sorry about the the other though. Like you say, never a dull moment)


Yes, Dylan likes to keep me on my toes.

I forgot to mention, in relation to the MCT oil, that there is evidence ( in mice ) that its use can lead to the development of more intolerances. With Dylan already intolerant of chicken, turkey, duck, beef, lamb, soy and eggs before you even start on offal, grains, gums etc that's not something I like to think about.Every time I see something which, on the surface looks a good idea, I then find reasons not to try it. The more one looks into things the more complicated it gets.

I hadn't realised quite how much my research into Dylan's " difficulties" has taken over my life until Friday evening . I made my monthly trip out to visit a neighbour who started to talk to me about gut health in relation to her elderly dog. Well an hour after I should have been home to feed Dylan we were still on the same subject. Luckily Dylan wasn't sick but I fully expected him to be.


----------



## lorilu

It's a fascinating topic. One I don't have anyone IRL to discuss. I can...pontificate... at work and the other cat lovers listen and even ask questions, but it's not really a discussion because while they express a lot of interest, they don't follow up with their own research and learning.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> It's a fascinating topic. One I don't have anyone IRL to discuss. I can...pontificate... at work and the other cat lovers listen and even ask questions, but it's not really a discussion because while they express a lot of interest, they don't follow up with their own research and learning.


My friends were interested but I know that they won't follow up either. I suspect that they consider me slightly eccentric!


----------



## Forester

Well, since last week's constipation crisis the situation appears to have improved , a lot. Dylan has since produced three poos , all slightly on the soft side. Todays was actually very soft and almost exactly 24 hours after the last one. I've consequently reduced the lactulose dose down to 1.5ml twice daily. 

This change might be due to the slightly higher fat content in recent batches of food but I'm guessing that it's more likely to be due to the VSL3. I've been giving approx 25% VSL 75% promax 30 but am about to increase the proportion of VSL3 slightly. 

On the vomit front things are much the same, approx. 2 per week with the last one being Sat 9th.


----------



## lorilu

So glad to hear things are moving through and out again!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Good news on the pooping front, good boy Dylan. Now if you could break the vomming habit, your slave would feel even better. Hope you're okay @Forester


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good news on the pooping front, good boy Dylan. Now if you could break the vomming habit, your slave would feel even better. Hope you're okay @Forester


I'm fine thanks Mrs F . , there just hasn't been anything significant to report.

Sadly , I was advised by Dylan's Specialist from Langford that , because of Dylan's fibrosis, it won't be possible to ever stop him from vomiting completely. She advised me that the best I could do was to keep him as well as possible for as long as possible :Arghh. That doesn't mean that I will ever stop trying , quite the opposite, I'm determined to prove that a raw diet can , and will, help my boy significantly. It ( the raw diet ) has already transformed Dylan into a cat who looks marvellous - energetic, happy, bright eyes , and a coat which shines like no other and is so so soft.He's also put on an amazing amount of muscle and gained a kilo in weight.

My vet tells me that we've done well so far, in fact exceedingly well. He has told me in the past ( several years ago ) that Dylan " shouldn't really be here".

I wonder whether the gloomy outlook which was presented to me after Dylan's referral , and biopsies, has actually spurred me on and made me more determined that he should not be " written off". If it's humanly possible I will prove them wrong, somehow.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> So glad to hear things are moving through and out again!


Thanks


----------



## Forester

I've had to wait 5 days for a present to be delivered to Dylan's tray ,however he's now on 50% Promax 30 : 50% VSL3 probiotics. He's also gone 9 days minus a couple of hours since his last vomit; and I'm still counting!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

All sounding very positive @Forester  Excellent news on all counts. I'm not being please though, no siree bob, as last time I was, the spuke happened!

 Good boy Dylan.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> All sounding very positive @Forester  Excellent news on all counts. I'm not being please though, no siree bob, as last time I was, the spuke happened!
> 
> Good boy Dylan.


Thanks @Mrs Funkin. 

You'd think that, in the light of Dylan's previous history, I would have learned not to get my hopes up after a few good days too, but I do it every time. Maybe, just maybe , this time it will be the start of continuous improvement.:Bag :Banghead


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Ah but if you *didn't* get your hopes up, that wouldn’t be you - and what’s the point in trying things if you aren’t at least a little bit hopeful about the potential outcome and/or improvements? 

Onwards! Hopefully


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Ah but if you *didn't* get your hopes up, that wouldn't be you - and what's the point in trying things if you aren't at least a little bit hopeful about the potential outcome and/or improvements?
> 
> Onwards! Hopefully


You make a very good point there @Mrs Funkin ; I have to believe that the changes I'm making will bring about improvement at some stage , even if there is no immediate evidence. Dylan's appearance and whole demeanour has improved immensely since I've fed him entirely on raw, and the vomiting is reduced too . The whole conundrum is how to ensure that Dylan gets the nutrients he needs in a form which allows his gut to perform to it's maximum.

My biggest concern is that all this trial and error takes so long . I spend much of my time reading , and trying to understand ,articles about inflammatory processes specifically in relation to the gut as well as anecdotal evidence about what has helped other cats in a similar position but Dylan is so , so sensitive to even simple things that even the smallest change seems to take forever.

Never mind, we go on, . . . . . ._and _I'm still counting the days since Dylan's last vomit.Today is day 10.


----------



## Mrs Funkin




----------



## Forester

Dylan's vomit free run lasted 11 days, 7 hours and 30 minutes. He wasn't bothered about it in fact he was waiting for his dish to be replenished before I'd finished clearing up!

Oh well , time to start counting again.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh bless your little chap. Onwards, Dylan and here's to another 11 days+ of vomit free days - but could you at least let your slave clear up before you demand more dinner


----------



## Forester

@Mrs Funkin , when I first adopted Dylan he would eat as much as he could as quickly as he could, barf beside the bowl, then carry on eating without even drawing breath. It took him about 3 years to be able to ignore a dish containing food. Before then he would attempt to eat anything and everything which could possibly be classified as edible.


----------



## Forester

When things go wrong with Dylan they do so spectacularly. Wednesday's vomit was followed by another yesterday, and then 2 more this morning. I'm afraid that I'm cheating slightly and counting this mornings double offering as one - well it was the same meal, sort of. 

:Banghead :Banghead :Banghead :Arghh

. . . . .and on we go. . . . . .


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> When things go wrong with Dylan they do so spectacularly. Wednesday's vomit was followed by another yesterday, and then 2 more this morning. I'm afraid that I'm cheating slightly and counting this mornings double offering as one - well it was the same meal, sort of.
> 
> :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead :Arghh
> 
> . . . . .and on we go. . . . . .


{{hug}}


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> {{hug}}


Thanks .

I really should have learned not to get my hopes up whenever Dylan produces a long run without vomiting, however it gets to me every time. Never mind , I'm like one of those toys that you can't knock over - or so I try to tell myself!

What is it they say? Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I must be awesome!!!!! I'm laughing now, or trying too but I will admit to needing the tissues earlier on. Urgh!!!!!!!!


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I really should have learned not to get my hopes up whenever Dylan produces a long run without vomiting, however it gets to me every time. Never mind , I'm like one of those toys that you can't knock over - or so I try to tell myself!


Yes I understand, having said the exact same words, or similar, a hundred thousand times. Hope is always good, anyway. And as we have seen with my Mazy cat over the years, progress can be so tiny as to be unnoticeable, but it is there, when you look back. She's 7 years into her healing and recovery and has gone from 22 meals a day down to 8 meals. She can eat 0.8 ounces without bringing it back up!

And now, even more recent is the fact that the last time she had a longer vomit free span (15 days), she actually did NOT puke for 3 or 4 days in a row afterwards like she usually does when she goes that long.

So, even though their issues are different, some of their patterns are remarkably similar, and that certainly is cause for hope. xx


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester I'm sorry to read that. Just sending you and Dylan a whole bunch of love - and keep hoping! You know he's had so many improvements since he came to you - and you're entirely correct, you *are* awesome


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester I'm sorry to read that. Just sending you and Dylan a whole bunch of love - and keep hoping! You know he's had so many improvements since he came to you - and you're entirely correct, you *are* awesome


 Uh humm , I didn't pick my words well :Shamefullyembarrased. I will admit to being very stubborn, and determined that I will do everything I possibly can for Dylan but I'm not awesome. Thank you for your kind words and support nevertheless @Mrs Funkin.

Today I'm just struggling to get Dylan to eat anything. He's not moping, or acting ill in any way, just sleeping and showing no interest in food. He has eaten a few morsels offered on my finger whilst he's been laid in one of his beds however he shows no inclination whatsoever to leave his bed.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh it's been a sleepy day here today too, though Oscar ate his breakfast. He went to bed at 10am and didn't get up until gone 4pm! Mind you, he's starving now. Hope your boy perks up later and eats some dinner. 

I disagree though, you are awesome. So there.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Yes I understand, having said the exact same words, or similar, a hundred thousand times. Hope is always good, anyway. And as we have seen with my Mazy cat over the years, progress can be so tiny as to be unnoticeable, but it is there, when you look back. She's 7 years into her healing and recovery and has gone from 22 meals a day down to 8 meals. She can eat 0.8 ounces without bringing it back up!
> 
> And now, even more recent is the fact that the last time she had a longer vomit free span (15 days), she actually did NOT puke for 3 or 4 days in a row afterwards like she usually does when she goes that long.
> 
> So, even though their issues are different, some of their patterns are remarkably similar, and that certainly is cause for hope. xx


@lorilu. Thank you for your support. . At times I have a tendency to overlook that you and Mazy cat have gone through a journey very similar to that which Dylan and I are experiencing - *and have survived and come out the other side.
*
I can see the parallel between Dylan's pattern and Mazy cat's . It's just that Dylan's overall vomit rate doesn't see to have improved at all in the last 12 months, If anything it's got worse, although it's better than he was on commercial wet .He does look fantastic though , much like Mazy cat!

I *do *have hope. That's probably part of the problem. I need to learn to manage my expectations.

xx


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh it's been a sleepy day here today too, though Oscar ate his breakfast. He went to bed at 10am and didn't get up until gone 4pm! Mind you, he's starving now. Hope your boy perks up later and eats some dinner.
> 
> I disagree though, you are awesome. So there.


:Shamefullyembarrased :Shamefullyembarrased :Shamefullyembarrased You are too kind.

Oh bless Oscar. He is clearly taking advantage of living in feline Heaven and who can blame him. To sleep all day then get waited on and shown endless love- what more could any cat ask for?

I've just put Dylan out in his run as he loves to go out as it's getting dark. I've put a dish of food out with him so now have everything crossed that he eats and keeps it down.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Come on Dylan, eat your tea like a good boy - and keep it in your tummy too, please.


----------



## lorilu

If he's got a wad of fur in his gut he may benefit from going a few extra hours between meals. I know, it may induce another vomiting episode if he goes too long, but on the other hand hunger will stimulate pyloric emptying, and start moving that wad through.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Come on Dylan, eat your tea like a good boy - and keep it in your tummy too, please.


He's eaten most of it and kept it down. 

He's also got me well and truly " trained". Because of his condition we have an " arrangement" whereby he lets me know when he wants something and I respond immediately. He will tell me when he wants food or to go out by either looking at me whilst sat in front of me, or by putting a paw on my foot. He will then " lead" me either to his dish, his toy cupboard, or to the back door. He's just " summoned" me to go to his tunnel, in which he loves to lie on his back whilst I put my arm through one of the holes and massage his tummy. Well, he's just had his tunnel tummy rub, after which I went back to the laptop , only for me to be " summoned " back to the tunnel again.Me, under the paw ? Never"!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Brilliant  Oh Dylan you are a clever boy, you do have your human so very well trained. 

I clearly share the "Under the Paw" thing - Oscar obviously just has a delicate tummy rather than a full-on complex condition but he is very similar. Except when he wants something he stares at me and meows and if I've not responded within the time he feels appropriate, he walks to the sofa and puts one paw up as though he's going to scratch it, which of course gets me up. Cheeky little minx. I can't believe how much he's change in the (almost) one year since we adopted him. I must confess I get very jealous when I see posts on FB from the rescue we got him from, where there are newly adopted cats with their new owners, "Oh this is Bob, only three days in and he's already a lap cat" - that kind of thing. I am full on jealous - it's beyond envy - but I know that if he hadn't come to us, things might have been different for him. He does so love company and because I only work three days and husband works from home most of the time, we are there for him, whatever he wants. It's a good thing for him I think. He is 12 now, so needs a happy retirement  

I hope your food is still in your tummy, Dylan xx


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Brilliant  Oh Dylan you are a clever boy, you do have your human so very well trained.
> 
> I clearly share the "Under the Paw" thing - Oscar obviously just has a delicate tummy rather than a full-on complex condition but he is very similar. Except when he wants something he stares at me and meows and if I've not responded within the time he feels appropriate, he walks to the sofa and puts one paw up as though he's going to scratch it, which of course gets me up. Cheeky little minx. I can't believe how much he's change in the (almost) one year since we adopted him. I must confess I get very jealous when I see posts on FB from the rescue we got him from, where there are newly adopted cats with their new owners, "Oh this is Bob, only three days in and he's already a lap cat" - that kind of thing. I am full on jealous - it's beyond envy - but I know that if he hadn't come to us, things might have been different for him. He does so love company and because I only work three days and husband works from home most of the time, we are there for him, whatever he wants. It's a good thing for him I think. He is 12 now, so needs a happy retirement
> 
> I hope your food is still in your tummy, Dylan xx


I apologise for having gone off topic somewhat by detailing Dylan's routine for getting my attention.It was because he'd made me laugh with his demand for more tunnel tummy rubs. However, whilst we're here I do believe that there is a reason why some cats are lap cats and some not ( I read it somewhere years ago ).I think that it's to do with how they were socialised as kittens. If it's any consolation to you Dylan has *never *laid down in my lap, or anyone else's for that matter. He lies with his body against me but never on top of me. He will put his head or paws on my leg or my arm, and as a youngster would suckle on my skin ( that made me go mushy inside ), but he won't stay on my lap. My previous cat however slept on my lap the first evening he arrived, and every single evening for his entire life.

Happy retirement ? Oscar clearly realises that he's won the lottery!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mrs Funkin

No, I like it, I like to read about what Dylan is up to  I suspect our boy wasn't socialised well, he was so scared and bitey when he came (he bit me quite badly the first morning he was here) - now I can't remember the last time he went for me or husband - except for a love bite when he's grooming us. I'm glad I don't know his background - I always think I'd like to and then I realise I'm glad I don't. 

Anyway, back to the food  Oscar is back in love with Sheba again, haha.


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## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> He's eaten most of it and kept it down.
> 
> He's also got me well and truly " trained". Because of his condition we have an " arrangement" whereby he lets me know when he wants something and I respond immediately. He will tell me when he wants food or to go out by either looking at me whilst sat in front of me, or by putting a paw on my foot. He will then " lead" me either to his dish, his toy cupboard, or to the back door. He's just " summoned" me to go to his tunnel, in which he loves to lie on his back whilst I put my arm through one of the holes and massage his tummy. Well, he's just had his tunnel tummy rub, after which I went back to the laptop , only for me to be " summoned " back to the tunnel again.Me, under the paw ? Never"!


That's m'boy Dylan, keep 'em on their toes!!!


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## SbanR

Dylan has you well trained @Forester . I sincerely hope he doesn't think of running a Masterclass on "How to train your hooman"


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## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> That's m'boy Dylan, keep 'em on their toes!!!


There's no doubt about that. He has OH trained too. His brain may be small but he knows how to use it !!!!!



SbanR said:


> Dylan has you well trained @Forester . I sincerely hope he doesn't think of running a Masterclass on "How to train your hooman"


We recently had new furniture . Whilst waiting for it to arrive we had one old chair and a soft blanket on top of a cardboard box to serve Dylan and me. Dylan would order me out of the chair with " the look" , leaving me to sit on the floor. One visitor thought that I was crackers when I suggested sitting in the kitchen because Dylan was using the chair.:Hilarious I can't see him running a training course. I think that he likes to keep his secrets to himself.

No more vomits yet today, though he's barely eaten. I've just made up fresh food in case the last lot was too fatty for his liking.


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## Forester

That good run has really ended with a crash. Dylan's been sick again. I think that's probably 5 in just a few days. TBH I can't bring myself to study his record just at the moment. I'm wondering whether the problem could be the cornstarch in the VSL3 probiotic. I'll leave it off for a few days to see what happens.

I really don't know what to do probiotic wise. I don't want Dylan to be without a decent intake of cfu's as I feel that the gut microbiome is the key to helping my boy. I'm thinking about the poo pills yet again.https://shop.animalbiome.com/products/cat-gut-microbiome-restoration-system?variant=39826885833


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> could be the cornstarch in the VSL3 probiotic. I'll leave it off for a few days to see what happens.


It was the cornstarch that initially decided me on not trying this probiotic in spite of all the raves. Mazy cat absolutely cannot have corn derivatives of any kind. Dylan may be the same. xx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> It was the cornstarch that initially decided me on not trying this probiotic in spite of all the raves. Mazy cat absolutely cannot have corn derivatives of any kind. Dylan may be the same. xx


 It's so difficult to identify a suitable product. I'm trying to find something relatively potent which doesn't contain Saccharomyces boulardii but includes L acidophilus, L rhamnosus, L reuteri ,Bifidobacterium bifidum,and Streptococcus thermophilus ( I'm concerned about Dylan's kidneys ). What are you giving Mazy cat at the moment?

I'd also like to include some type of prebiotic but am wary of so many products. The more I look at it the more I'm thinking of the poo pills.

I'm struggling to get Dylan to eat yet again. If only I could offer him something other than pork to tempt him. . . . .

Oh well, the sun is shining and Dylan is sleeping peacefully in a chair, completely unperturbed by the current situation.


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## Mrs Funkin

Hi @Forester - I hope you've been able to persuade Dylan to eat something, bless him. Onwards, so many things to think about, your brain must hurt! Come on, little chap, eat a bit and no vom please.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Hi @Forester - I hope you've been able to persuade Dylan to eat something, bless him. Onwards, so many things to think about, your brain must hurt! Come on, little chap, eat a bit and no vom please.


Thanks Mrs F . I've had to finger feed him just to get him to eat anything today however about an hour ago I produced a dish of chopped pork without any supplements. I started him off with my fingers but then left him alone with the dish, which emptied within about 5 minutes. I won't be giving him just pork on a regular basis but, as a one off to get him started again I think it's worth it.

I'm wondering whether I've gone too quickly with increasing the VSL over the last few days . After all he was having 50% VSL3 50% pro 30 max during his 11 day vomit free run. I think that I'll give him a couple of days without probiotics then try going back to the 50;50 mix again for a while.

If that fails maybe I'll go for the poo pills ( for Dylan NOT me !  ) or maybe I'll do more research looking at the effects of different strains of probiotics on histamines. I think that might be relevant with most of Dylan's inflammation being eosinophilic. If only there was a way to know what would be most beneficial for him. . . . . . .


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## Mrs Funkin

Well, the odd meal with nothing added won’t hurt in the grand scheme of life, eh? Hope you enjoyed your plain pork, Dylan. 

Do you know what I thought when I read this? Thank goodness for the internet! I mean, how else would you readily access all this amazing information? Journals don’t publish research quickly, most vets wouldn’t have the knowledge (and nor could they be expected to), manufacturers are not always forthcoming and you’d have to write to them. Incredible really. 

As for knowing...well, unless you can clone him, it’s just a long process. If you can clone him, you could easily halve the time it takes to figure it all out  

Hope you both have a good day xx


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## Forester

You're so right @Mrs Funkin. Without the internet I would no doubt have fed Dylan a " prescription diet " for his entire life, and I dread to think what that would have done to him. I wouldn't have had any inkling that it wasn't in his best interests to do so.

Much as I love my little lad more than most people can imagine I don't think that I could cope with all this with more than one version of Dylan. There are people in the Raw for IBD Fb group who care for numerous cats with this , and other conditions. One even has 15 cats all either FIV+, IBD, SCL, CKD . How they cope I really can't imagine.

Dylan is brighter today, and is eating again. He also hasn't been sick since yesterday. I'm wondering whether I've tried to go too quickly with my introduction of the VSL. I intend to enquire how other users of this probiotic for their IBD cats have fared. Of course I have to take into account that Dylan appears to be the most sensitive cat that even that group has ever had.

For all his " special needs" Dylan remains the sweetest cat I've ever encountered.


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## Forester

Dylan is so much brighter without the VSL3 that I've decided to give it a rest for now. I've learned from the Raw for IBD group that it isn't always tolerated. 

It has been suggested to me that I continue to give him 50% of the VSL dose, as he was OK ( i e not vomiting )at this level for about a week however he wasn't eating well and wasn't as bright as he is now. I'm therefore continuing with the Pro 30 max for now . On each of the last 2 days I've also given 1 drop of BioGaia protectis. I aim to gradually increase the BG to 5 drops per day.

I also plan to increase the level of B vits from Dylan's bespoke supplement from 33% to 66%.


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh I'm glad Dylan is feeling more perky @Forester - it's just so much to think about all the time I'm sure. So many confounding variables. So many "what ifs". You're a Wonder Woman!


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh I'm glad Dylan is feeling more perky @Forester - it's just so much to think about all the time I'm sure. So many confounding variables. So many "what ifs". You're a Wonder Woman!


I only do what any caring owner would, given the same circumstances; though I will admit that Dylan takes every ounce of mental energy I possess.


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## Mrs Funkin

See, I don’t think you do. I think there are many many people who are kind and caring owners but wouldn’t have been able to do what you have and would have surrendered Dylan to a rescue. So I stand by my Wonder Woman comment. You won’t change my mind on that I’m afraid.


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## Paddypaws

I’m with Mrs F in agreeing that you really do go the extra mile for your lovely lad. 
Remember you have the Bimuno to try at some point and you know I’m in favour of trying the poop pills. X


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## SbanR

Another who agrees with Mrs F. You go the Extra Mile Wonder Woman


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> See, I don't think you do. I think there are many many people who are kind and caring owners but wouldn't have been able to do what you have and would have surrendered Dylan to a rescue. So I stand by my Wonder Woman comment. You won't change my mind on that I'm afraid.


Surrender Dylan to a rescue!!!!!!!  :Arghh* I'd rather blow my brains out. *

Dylan was adopted from CP and I have to confess that I broke my promise to the lovely lady who found Dylan for me. I told her that I would keep her informed regarding how he got on but, once his vomiting prompted me to take him to the vets, I failed to keep in touch. I was terrified that CP would want to take him back on the grounds that he wasn't suited to an indoor home ( with a run). That said, if I thought that anyone else could prevent him from vomiting of course I would do what was best for him.

After Dylan's referral and diagnosis I once asked my vet at the time, who had become a personal friend, whether she thought that Dylan would be better off with a different home. Her reply was " absolutely not! "



Paddypaws said:


> I'm with Mrs F in agreeing that you really do go the extra mile for your lovely lad.
> Remember you have the Bimuno to try at some point and you know I'm in favour of trying the poop pills. X


Thanks PP. I value your views very highly.

I *am *considering the poop pills again as well as wanting to find a suitable pre biotic for Dylan. Dylan is due his annual once over next month and I intend to raise the subject of the poo pills with my vet again. I think that his objections were purely so based on cost/ practicality ( as he thought that I'd need to give them continuously ) so if he has no clinical objection I'll probably go for them.

If I'm 100% honest I'm frightened of using most of the prebiotic products I read about . Most products seem to have ingredients which are reputed to cause issues in some cases. There again, I suppose that there will always be bad reactions to any product with some cats.

Prebiotic wise , I'm almost decided on trying the phage . TBH , I get the bottle out of the fridge daily and look at it.  . I've also been tempted by this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Foods-Prob...1438012&sr=1-4&keywords=NOW+probiotic+defence which is highly recommended in the Raw for IBD group . It does however contain FOS, which I've read could cause problems , as well as wheat, milk and soy.

It has been suggested to me that Dylan may have reacted to the VSL if he has high levels of " bad " bacteria. I think that this theory might be supported as the VSL did cause some extremely smelly farts ( sorry if TMI ).

The Bimuno sachets are currently acting as a sort of security blanket. They're giving me reassurance ( thank you  )that I have them to hand should I decide to try them.



SbanR said:


> Another who agrees with Mrs F. You go the Extra Mile Wonder Woman


Thank you .I'm only going the extra mile because it's necessary.

ETA As for Wonder Woman, I don't have the legs to wear those shorts!!!!!! :Hilarious


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## Mrs Funkin

I know YOU wouldn't @Forester - I am glad to read you still have options to try for Dylan.

So you might go down the route of Paddy Paws' Poop Pills? I really only wanted to type that due to the fabulous alliteration...but I do hope that they help Dylan with his poop cycle. Hope he's eating a bit better still too.


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## Forester

@Mrs Funkin . I really think that you should re phrase yourself. Paddy Paws' Poop Pills !  :Hilarious

They're these.https://shop.animalbiome.com/products/cat-gut-microbiome-restoration-system?variant=39826885833

Poor PP,


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## Paddypaws

:Cat


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## Forester

February's vomit total was 8, however 4 of these came in a 3 day spell just before I ditched the VSL. 

Unfortunately , right now it's the back end which is giving me cause for concern . I'm not going to admit when Dylan last presented me with poo however I'm getting quite anxious . Dylan is eating reasonably well, hasn't been sick since Monday ( disclosing that is asking for trouble ! ) , is playing and behaving as normal just isn't producing poo. Yesterday I had what I thought was a brainwave and smeared his anus with vaseline. I had hoped that it would cause him to both ingest the vaseline as well as stimulate the area in question. It hasn't had any effect so today I've been out and purchased some hairball paste . Dylan has consumed 2 " portions" so far. 

I have removed a glycerine suppository from the box ( as if doing that will trigger action  )

Before today I wouldn't have dreamed of giving hairball paste but desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm now considering whether to prioritise introduction of the phage, Bimuno ( thank you PP  ) or the NOW probiotic defence ( which I haven't sent for yet ). I wish that I wasn't a Pisces!


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## Mrs Funkin

Oh sorry @Paddypaws - I just liked the alliteration


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## Forester

I'm sorry too, I'd intended to provide some indication that you'd made me laugh @ Mrs Funkin


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## Mrs Funkin

Sorry @Forester I'm a bit "delicate" today and clearly over-sensitive xx


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Sorry @Forester I'm a bit "delicate" today and clearly over-sensitive xx


Oh nooooo. Someone like you doesn't deserve to have bad days. Here's hoping that Oscar can show you how loved and wanted you are, and will brighten up your day.xx


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## Mrs Funkin

I'm okay, thank you - and I'm certainly not someone who doesn't deserve bad days! It was yesterday, I had a horrid day, the worst bits being that my grandad died and my mother-in-law (who has incurable cancer) had an awful fall and is in hospital (we are awaiting news). The rest of the day that felt so awful at the time (work things) seems unimportant now, which is good. Oscar is most certainly cheering me, by letting me stroke him quite a lot, sitting with me on the bed and now he's hanging out in the lounge with me


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> I'm okay, thank you - and I'm certainly not someone who doesn't deserve bad days! It was yesterday, I had a horrid day, the worst bits being that my grandad died and my mother-in-law (who has incurable cancer) had an awful fall and is in hospital (we are awaiting news). The rest of the day that felt so awful at the time (work things) seems unimportant now, which is good. Oscar is most certainly cheering me, by letting me stroke him quite a lot, sitting with me on the bed and now he's hanging out in the lounge with me


Sending (((( hugs )))). Days like that certainly do put things into perspective. Hoping that the outlook will soon feel brighter for you. xx


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## Forester

Dylan produced a very welcome gift for me last night which he kindly left in his tray. I was overjoyed to a level beyond normal comprehension.  I'd been anticipating having to take him for an enema this morning. I had attempted to remedy the situation yesterday with both a cotton bud dipped in glycerine , and a pared down glycerine suppository but I just couldn't do it. I'd rather pay for the vet to perform the task than to risk hurting my boy. I would probably have had no qualms about performing this procedure with a human being but I couldn't do it to Dylan.

In my desperate state I've started Dylan on the phage prebiotic, just a few grains at a time initially. Since starting this introduction I've seen details of another product which has been recommended in the Raw for IBD group. It's this

https://www.bioiberica.com/en/products/animal-health/medicina-interna/entero-chronic.

Oh well, I've started Dylan with the phage now so it seems sensible to wait before making any more changes. I've also withheld Dylan's cetirizine today as constipation is one of the listed possible side effects. Unfortunately the cetirizine also stimulates Dylan's appetite so I will have to see how things pan out.

Somewhat surprisingly, considering that Dylan has been constipated, his last vomit was a week ago.


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## Mrs Funkin

Hi Forester and Dylan and everyone else, I was updating my Oscar Spreadsheet today and thought I'd report in that for all of February we have had only one tiny vomit - which was three pieces of Sheba. I'm so delighted! Of course today we had a vomited blob of goop, which was loose hair and a large piece of plant stem, so I think that was more related to the stem than actually vomiting. It was pre-breakfast and would explain his crazy meowing and croaky throat at 6.30am.

I wish he would poop more regularly though, it's usually about every 36 hours - but once again our boy isn't following the rules as to frequency of pooping. It seems sort of normal for him though.

I'm just popping a picture on here @Forester if you don't mind (please tell me to delete it if you mind) - this was Oscar this morning, when he rested on me for 35 minutes! Only the third time he's sat on me, never in the morning and never not facing me. I could have cried it was so special  Of course, finding the pile of vomit when we got home from running explains why he wanted me 

I hope Dylan is doing well - I often think of you both xx


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## Forester

Wow !!!! @Mrs Funkin, That's fabulous news on both the vomiting and the bonding fronts . Just one vomit for February . It sounds as though you have the situation well sussed! I could not be more pleased for you!.

Your snuggling photos would make anyone's heart melt.. . . and I think that I detect a rather smug look on Oscar's face. I can imagine what's going through his mind. " This is Heaven, can we stay here forever ,human mother ? " I know just what you mean about wanting to cry in those special times. Just one moment makes any worries and tribulations evaporate.. . . .
Oscar is rather gorgeous.I can understand why you've fallen for each other.

Dylan has had a bit of a rough week, unfortunately. He's had 3 vomits and has not been eating well. This morning's vomit was, I'm pretty sure, what is referred to in the Raw for IBD group as an acid puke. He'd turned his nose up at the food I'd left for his midnight and 3am meals so had gone too long without food. We have had builders in for the last couple of days which have upset him too. Still every new day is a new beginning. I can't change what's past- just try to improve the future.

There's one bright note. We've had 3 poops in the last week despite the reduced food intake. I've made matters more difficult for myself by trying to reduce Dylan's cetirizine at the same time as introducing the phage prebiotic so now I don't know which action to attribute the increased pooing to. Its a bit early to decide that the pooping frequency has improved anyway.

This is an internet forum , anyone can post whatever they like so long as it doesn't break forum rules. . No one in their right mind would object to seeing photos of the gorgeous Oscar. I do try to keep my posts relevant to achieving a fully complete raw diet for a cat with dietary sensitivities but that's only because I'd like it to be able to help anyone else unfortunate enough to be in a situation similar to mine. If I can make things easier for just one cat/ owner I'd be happy.

Your positive report on Oscars vomiting has brightened my day so it is relevant. All moral support is extremely welcome, and it's what this forum is all about!


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## Mrs Funkin

Thanks @Forester  I shall try not to detract from the thread substance. I'm not sure we have the situation sussed but he definitely is better on Sheba than the other brands he will eat. I tried him recently on another better brand (stubborn? Me?) - yet another refusal but at least not vomit.

Poor Dylan and his vomits but great news about the poop. More data for you to collect before a proper analysis can be conducted. Double blind RCT anyone? You might need an assistant for that though. Oh Dylan, how I wish for a magic wand and a spell to stop all this for you.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Thanks @Forester  I shall try not to detract from the thread substance. I'm not sure we have the situation sussed but he definitely is better on Sheba than the other brands he will eat. I tried him recently on another better brand (stubborn? Me?) - yet another refusal but at least not vomit.
> 
> Poor Dylan and his vomits but great news about the poop. More data for you to collect before a proper analysis can be conducted. *Double blind RCT anyone?* You might need an assistant for that though. Oh Dylan, how I wish for a magic wand and a spell to stop all this for you.


@ Mrs F , I know of a cat, diagnosed with IBD at a top Specialist Centre , who does* exceptionally *well on Sheba ,so it can't be all that bad . I do think that continually changing foods, however "good" the brand may be is not good. I firmly believe that the extent of Dylan's intolerances has been caused to some extent by the huge range of proteins I was feeding when I first adopted him. I stuck to a couple of brands ( Macs, Granatapet) but fed almost every flavour available. ( I didn't feed fish).Did this practice lead to so many intolerances???????

The thought of an RCT strikes fear into me. Surely there can't be another cat who suffers in the same way as Dylan ? 

Harry Potter will be welcome here, any day !

Just a thought- if you fancy "chatting" in general rather than on topic why not converse by PM? It would be welcome from this end. I do think about you and Oscar too. x


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> @ Mrs F , I know of a cat, diagnosed with IBD at a top Specialist Centre , who does* exceptionally *well on Sheba ,so it can't be all that bad . I do think that continually changing foods, however "good" the brand may be is not good. I firmly believe that the extent of Dylan's intolerances has been caused to some extent by the huge range of proteins I was feeding when I first adopted him. I stuck to a couple of brands ( Macs, Granatapet) but fed almost every flavour available. ( I didn't feed fish).Did this practice lead to so many intolerances???????
> 
> The thought of an RCT strikes fear into me. Surely there can't be another cat who suffers in the same way as Dylan ?
> 
> Harry Potter will be welcome here, any day !
> 
> Just a thought- if you fancy "chatting" in general rather than on topic why not converse by PM? It would be welcome from this end. I do think about you and Oscar too. x


Oh no!!:Jawdrop Please don't! Your chats are so interesting, it's like a conversational "Through the Keyhole"

P.S. You could start a thread Through the Conversational Keyhole


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Oh no!!:Jawdrop Please don't! Your chats are so interesting, it's like a conversational "Through the Keyhole"
> 
> P.S. You could start a thread Through the Conversational Keyhole


I'm gobsmacked at this reaction. It sounds as though you and I are being considered a double act @Mrs Funkin  :Hilarious. How about a 3 way conversation @SbanR.?I don't always want to air my dirty laundry in public! :Bag

ETA My aim in starting this thread was to help anyone who finds themselves unfortunate enough to be in a similar situation to mine. I hadn't realised it would be considered entertainment!


----------



## lorilu

Mrs Funkin said:


> I wish he would poop more regularly though, it's usually about every 36 hours - but once again our boy isn't following the rules as to frequency of pooping. It seems sort of normal for him though.


Perfectly normal poop schedule for a cat.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> I'm gobsmacked at this reaction. It sounds as though you and I are being considered a double act @Mrs Funkin  :Hilarious. How about a 3 way conversation @SbanR.?I don't always want to air my dirty laundry in public! :Bag
> 
> ETA My aim in starting this thread was to help anyone who finds themselves unfortunate enough to be in a similar situation to mine. I hadn't realised it would be considered entertainment!


Suits me but I'll be more of a silent partner

A little light entertainment in amongst the seriousness helps though


----------



## ebonycat

@Forester I'm another one that loves reading your updates on Dylan's journey with IBD,
I've never posted a reply as never known what to say but I've got to tell you that I think you're wonderful, how you always put your boy first, look into ways of making his life more comfortable, his needs above your own. It takes a special kind of person to do that.
I might not post much & haven't commented until now but with every update I read I'm routing for Dylan & you xx


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## Forester

ebonycat said:


> @Forester I'm another one that loves reading your updates on Dylan's journey with IBD,
> I've never posted a reply as never known what to say but I've got to tell you that I think you're wonderful, how you always put your boy first, look into ways of making his life more comfortable, his needs above your own. It takes a special kind of person to do that.
> I might not post much & haven't commented until now but with every update I read I'm routing for Dylan & you xx


Oh thank you @ebonycat.  I'm very touched , and flattered, by your comments. It is uplifting to have so many people on our side. You're wrong though, I don't do anything special, just the best that I can for my boy. I couldn't live with myself if I did any less. Sometimes however it is so hard trying to decide what is best for Dylan.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Pride comes before a fall and all that. Or indeed pride comes before an Oscar decides to spuke his breakfast all over the lounge carpet.

Pesky. Just mentioning it so that Dylan doesn't feel like he's alone in the vomming!

@SbanR - I've never thought of my musing as being entertaining but that's fine by me, I just find the whole science/physiology stuff interesting and like to openly muse about how things might affect Dylan.

@lorilu thank you for the poop timing reassurance, I get in a fuffle when it's not 24 hours, as that's what they are "meant" to do. Thanks xx


----------



## Forester

It's obviously too soon to be sure that Dylan's pattern of pooping is changing ( hoping that you'll enjoy the alliteration Mrs F ) , however we've now had 2 consecutive 2 day poo's., and the second of those was extremely loose. This morning I've used the cowpat poop as an excuse to give 2ml lactulose instead of 3 ml . Dilly does hate the lactulose so I'd love to be able to reduce or even do away with it.

I'm sorry to hear about Oscar's recycling. Is it usually breakfast that he " returns" ?. I wonder whether it might be worth manipulating the timing of his meals. Many cats with sensitive stomachs are unable to go long periods e.g. overnight, without vomiting afterwards. There was a time when Dylan would vomit any time he went longer than 3 hours without eating. 

Dilly's not doing too well on the vomiting front either, with 3 last week, but . . . best foot forward and all that. . .


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I'd say yes, more likely to be his breakfast but has done it at other times too. If we are out a long time in the day into evening then that's how the smaller starter then rest of supper started, as he would stuff himself and then vom. For various reasons we are pretty sure he would not use an auto feeder - and I think it can't really be that as the only reason as he's only done one tiny vomit in February and we've been feeding him in exactly the same way. There was more the the stalk of the plant he ate (that he vommed out the other morning) in his poop yesterday. I just don't know. I'm much calmer about it than I have been previously though, which pleases me.

Super-pooping Dylan! Anything to reduce that nasty lactulose eh?  Booo to the three vomits though. Oh these boys, they are worrisome indeed.


----------



## SbanR

Mrs Funkin said:


> Pride comes before a fall and all that. Or indeed pride comes before an Oscar decides to spuke his breakfast all over the lounge carpet.
> 
> Pesky. Just mentioning it so that Dylan doesn't feel like he's alone in the vomming!
> 
> @SbanR - I've never thought of my musing as being entertaining but that's fine by me, I just find the whole science/physiology stuff interesting and like to . , and 're openly muse about how things might affect Dylan.
> 
> @lorilu thank you for the poop timing reassurance, I get in a fuffle when it's not 24 hours, as that's what they are "meant" to do. Thanks xx


Ah Mrs F, you n Forester have got it slightly wrong. Your musings are interesting and reassuring when my lot do something that would otherwise worry me.(such as the first time Ollie went 2 days before doing a poop, even though meals had been exactly the same. I thought of Oscar then).

Hope things improve on the poop n Vom front for both Dylan n Oscar


----------



## Forester

Well folks, I would appear to be making some progress on the constipation front. I have been giving Dylan the cetirizine hydrochloride and a few grains of the phage prebiotic on alternate days.Dylan's last 3 poos have been produced after 48hrs, 48hrs and 72 hours respectively. That's a whole lot better than the week I had to wait for the previous one.. The last two poos have also been extremely soft.

Yes , I know that cetirizine hydrochloride and Floraphage are reputed to have the opposite effect on frequency of defecation . The aim has been to reduce the constipating effect of the cetirizine whilst adding the prebiotic which will hopefully prove to be " loosening".

I've had to adjust the " alternate day" plan slightly because Dylan has been extremely reluctant to eat recently. I think that he's been feeling a little queasy even though I'm introducing the Floraphage so slowly that I'm not really increasing.I am therefore resuming the daily cetirizine, my vet wanted me to keep going with it anyway, whilst continuing to introduce the phage. Cetirizine boosts Dylan's appetite as well as , hopefully, helping to subdue his eosinophilic inflammation.

We're so so on the vomiting front but at least it isn't dreadful. I'm hoping that the beneficial effects of the prebiotic will , in time, help to reduce the vomiting.

SbanR If you're ever worried about Ollie holding on to his poo longer than you'd like why not ring your vets for advice. I'm sure that they really wouldn't mind. Can you be sure that he doesn't hide his offerings anywhere. I say this because I remember @buffie taking her boy to the vet as she was worried that he was way overdue a poo. The vet pronounced that there was " nothing in the pipeline" so to speak. The lovely boy had been hiding his treasure under the artificial grass in his run !

Hoping that Oscar is keeping his food to himself and is not worrying his slaves.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Well folks, I would appear to be making some progress on the constipation front. I have been giving Dylan the cetirizine hydrochloride and a few grains of the phage prebiotic on alternate days.Dylan's last 3 poos have been produced after 48hrs, 48hrs and 72 hours respectively. That's a whole lot better than the week I had to wait for the previous one.. The last two poos have also been extremely soft.
> 
> Yes , I know that cetirizine hydrochloride and Floraphage are reputed to have the opposite effect on frequency of defecation . The aim has been to reduce the constipating effect of the cetirizine whilst adding the prebiotic which will hopefully prove to be " loosening".
> 
> I've had to adjust the " alternate day" plan slightly because Dylan has been extremely reluctant to eat recently. I think that he's been feeling a little queasy even though I'm introducing the Floraphage so slowly that I'm not really increasing.I am therefore resuming the daily cetirizine, my vet wanted me to keep going with it anyway, whilst continuing to introduce the phage. Cetirizine boosts Dylan's appetite as well as , hopefully, helping to subdue his eosinophilic inflammation.
> 
> We're so so on the vomiting front but at least it isn't dreadful. I'm hoping that the beneficial effects of the prebiotic will , in time, help to reduce the vomiting.
> 
> SbanR If you're ever worried about Ollie holding on to his poo longer than you'd like why not ring your vets for advice. I'm sure that they really wouldn't mind. Can you be sure that he doesn't hide his offerings anywhere. I say this because I remember @buffie taking her boy to the vet as she was worried that he was way overdue a poo. The vet pronounced that there was " nothing in the pipeline" so to speak. The lovely boy had been hiding his treasure under the artificial grass in his run !
> 
> Hoping that Oscar is keeping his food to himself and is not worrying his slaves.


Wishing you success with your phage introduction Forester.

Ollie is pretty regular with his offerings. It's every morning unless something distracts him, and that boy is easily distracted. I'm there, watching him with beady eyes and bag in hand all ready to scoop it up before he treads on it.
He has occasionally gone 48 hours. The first time it happened I was concerned but then remembered Oscar and kept my fingers crossed.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> .* Can you be sure that he doesn't hide his offerings anywhere. I say this because I remember @buffie taking her boy to the vet as she was worried that he was way overdue a poo. The vet pronounced that there was " nothing in the pipeline" so to speak. The lovely boy had been hiding his treasure under the artificial grass in his run* !
> 
> Hoping that Oscar is keeping his food to himself and is not worrying his slaves.


Not only was that an expensive lesson it was also an embarrassing one when I had to phone the vet to "correct his records" .

Good to see that the Masters apprentice is doing a bit better in the "offerings" department


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Not only was that an expensive lesson it was also an embarrassing one when I had to phone the vet to "correct his records" .
> 
> Good to see that the Masters apprentice is doing a bit better in the "offerings" department


Poor Mr M, I doubt that he was impressed either, not just from the stress of having to go where they do nasty things to you, but from the whole indignity of the occasion.

Thanks  I have everything crossed that Dylan's improved through flow will be maintained.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Worry level a little above normal but I think that's just me at the moment. No further vomit since the other morning (that I've found, anyway, there's probably some upstairs). 

I'm glad that Dylan's poop is staying on track - even if it is softer than you'd like it to be. Hopefully the not being constipated will help with the vomiting too. Come on lovely boy, keep at it.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Worry level a little above normal but I think that's just me at the moment. No further vomit since the other morning (that I've found, anyway, there's probably some upstairs).
> 
> I'm glad that Dylan's poop is staying on track - even if it is softer than you'd like it to be. Hopefully the not being constipated will help with the vomiting too. Come on lovely boy, keep at it.


Is there any pattern to the timing of Oscar's vomits ? Dylan's vomits are always 8 - 10 minutes after he eats. It's so regular you could set your watch by him. I breathe a huge sigh of relief once we get to 15 minutes after consumption. It means that he'll be OK till the next meal.


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## Mrs Funkin

Randomly, if he starts to groom, he's okay. If he doesn't, I am on High Alert! It's usually within 5 minutes if he's going to do it due to food (rather than hairball or giant piece of plant stem!).


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Randomly, if he starts to groom, he's okay. If he doesn't, I am on High Alert! It's usually within 5 minutes if he's going to do it due to food (rather than hairball or giant piece of plant stem!).


. . . . . starts thinking. . . . . .


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## Mrs Funkin

Back in April last year the Vet did think he had an exaggerated gag reflex, so he had omeprazole for three weeks. However, the day after the Vet visit (we’d taken him due to vomiting with no hairball), he had a hairball, so we didn’t know what it was. He also had horrid poop then too (just looking at my spreadsheet to see if there’s any correlation with any of it), which I thought was down to turkey flavoured food (again, flavour is on s/sheet). He has that fine now though, no poorly tummy from it.


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Back in April last year the Vet did think he had an exaggerated gag reflex, so he had omeprazole for three weeks. However, the day after the Vet visit (we'd taken him due to vomiting with no hairball), he had a hairball, so we didn't know what it was. He also had horrid poop then too (just looking at my spreadsheet to see if there's any correlation with any of it), which I thought was down to turkey flavoured food (again, flavour is on s/sheet). He has that fine now though, no poorly tummy from it.


How often does Oscar vomit,@Mrs Funkin? Has he had any investigations e. g. ultrasound? Have you tried an elimination diet, with strictly no extras at all, other than water ? There is an excellent sticky ,compiled by @chillminx ,on elimination diets or you could look at this
https://medium.com/@kalcevka/how-to...OovlySjYKjzgmLMHziAcTCyP9xz6d6V-x8hId1L65hPvk

note, if feeding brands which are not declared as single protein you have no idea what proteins are being consumed,(turkey flavour only needs to contain 4% turkey ) indeed many of the commercial foods which claim to be single protein may well be contaminated with other proteins. The only way to be sure that you're feeding single protein is to prepare the food yourself.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well, not often now, thankfully - and often lin

April - several in the month, about six (only started proper notes part way, several with hairballs, loose stools too)
May - none
June - twice (both random)
July - three (one including feather and bird entrails, so I'm not counting that! One with new food, one random) 
Aug - five (two after grass, two after new food, one random)
Sept - one (after new food, still hadn't learnt my lesson!)
Oct - none
Nov - three (one with hairball, one grass ++, one plant stem!)
Dec - one
Jan - none
Feb - two (one only three pieces of food)

When I look at it written out like this, it doesn't seem too bad. There's a reason with a lot of them (hair or eaten something less than ideal!), a few are to do with his not liking the new foods I tried to introduce. Since he has mostly Sheba the vomiting has reduced (Autumn last year). It is really interesting to look properly at things I think as I feel sometimes like it's frequent but I see this list and realise it's not really. So thank you for helping me realise that


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well, not often now, thankfully - and often lin
> 
> April - several in the month, about six (only started proper notes part way, several with hairballs, loose stools too)
> May - none
> June - twice (both random)
> July - three (one including feather and bird entrails, so I'm not counting that! One with new food, one random)
> Aug - five (two after grass, two after new food, one random)
> Sept - one (after new food, still hadn't learnt my lesson!)
> Oct - none
> Nov - three (one with hairball, one grass ++, one plant stem!)
> Dec - one
> Jan - none
> Feb - two (one only three pieces of food)
> 
> When I look at it written out like this, it doesn't seem too bad. There's a reason with a lot of them (hair or eaten something less than ideal!), a few are to do with his not liking the new foods I tried to introduce. Since he has mostly Sheba the vomiting has reduced (Autumn last year). It is really interesting to look properly at things I think as I feel sometimes like it's frequent but I see this list and realise it's not really. So thank you for helping me realise that


I'll reply to this in a PM so that it doesn't take this thread off at a tangent.


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## Mrs Funkin

Oki dokes, thank you  Me, tangent? Never! Ahem.


----------



## Forester

It's been a fairly good week by recent standards- 1 vomit, 2 poo's and progress towards making the diet complete.

I've resumed Dylan's daily cetirizine - without having it daily he didn't eat well and appeared a little subdued. I do think that it's a major contributor towards the constipation though. My priority however is quality of life and Dylan is clearly much happier when taking the cetirizine.

I've increased Dylan's B vits to 2/3 of the amount specified in his bespoke supplement and I've increased his phage prebiotic slightly. He's now getting about 20% of the desired dose of phage.

I have, unfortunately, discovered that the phage will be as effective given for 1 week per month as it would given every day . Because it targets E Coli so that it can be " eaten" by good bacteria, once the E coli have been killed there will be nothing for the phage to do. Once I've worked Dylan up to the full dose of phage I will, therefore only give it one week per month.

As for the other 3 weeks of the month- I need to find another prebiotic.

I do have Bimuno which is galactooligosaccharides however I understand that the prebiotic which has been most successful for cats with IBD is Mannan oligosaccaride or MOS

http://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/mannan-oligosaccharides-mos---review-of-the-science.html

I've therefore ordered this https://www.bioiberica.com/en/products/animal-health/medicina-interna/entero-chronic. It's expensive, on Amazon its around £1 per dose but. . . .this is Dylan. It should arrive sometime this week.


----------



## Forester

Dylan's last vomit was Tue 12th and his last poo this morning . The poo was exactly what I would have chosen, 48 hours after the last one with the " going" good to soft. 

I hope that we're not about to get another spate of vomits but I am feeling positive. I do believe that his condition is improving again.

Oh, and 67% of B vits appears to have been incorporated into the diet without issue so I'll move to 100% from tomorrow.


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan's last vomit was Tue 12th and his last poo this morning . The poo was exactly what I would have chosen, 48 hours after the last one with the " going" good to soft.
> 
> I hope that we're not about to get another spate of vomits but I am feeling positive. I do believe that his condition is improving again.
> 
> Oh, and 67% of B vits appears to have been incorporated into the diet without issue so I'll move to 100% from tomorrow.


Hurray!!!!!!


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Hurray!!!!!!


Thank you., for your support, both now and during some pretty dark days.

I hope that I'm not tempting fate by disclosing my positive feelings. It's happened so many times.

I am edging closer to the elusive complete diet and I think that I'm also starting to establish which supplements can help my gorgeous boy.


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## Mrs Funkin

I cannot tell you how much that last post makes me smile @Forester  So pleased xx


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> I cannot tell you how much that last post makes me smile @Forester  So pleased xx


Thank you, Mrs F . It's great to have you on team Dylan. I don't honestly know whether I'd have got this far without the support I regularly receive from forum members.
xx


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## lorilu

Forester said:


> hope that I'm not tempting fate by disclosing my positive feelings. It's happened so many times.


Oh gosh I know how that is. xxxxxx


----------



## Forester

Dylan's still vomit free since 12th March.

His sachets of Entero-Chronic arrived today ( from the Netherlands  ) however, once I have his Floraphage worked up to the desired dose ,I'm thinking of adding potassium iodide next.

Dylan himself appears bright and happy. I'm waiting for him to poo but won't be panicking for several more days.


----------



## Forester

*Still *vomit free   :Nailbiting *and* we've had poo. It must be my lucky day.!

On second thoughts , maybe it would be better to prioritise another prebiotic over the potassium iodide. . . . . . . any objective thoughts welcome.


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> *Still *vomit free   :Nailbiting *and* we've had poo. It must be my lucky day.!
> 
> On second thoughts , maybe it would be better to prioritise another prebiotic over the potassium iodide. . . . . . . any objective thoughts welcome.


No suggestions, but you're a good boy Dylan


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## Mrs Funkin

I have no idea but I am so very pleased for you and Dylan that the food is going in, staying in and then coming out preferred end  paws crossed it continues.


----------



## Forester

Dylan's good vomit free run has ended after 16 days.

Unfortunately I wasn't paying attention and the raw pork was sprayed over me, from a height!  I'll be interested to see whether we have made some progress with the prebiotic or whether it's back to the same old pattern.


----------



## Forester

This morning I found poo in Dylan's outdoor tray. I'm guessing that his expulsions from each end were connected. . He's been OK today, so far.


----------



## Forester

Dylan has performed as he always does. The 16 day vomit free spell has been followed by 3 pukes in 4 days, including 2 in less than 24 hours.


:Arghh

I think that I might drop the phage dose back a little. I'm only giving 25% and I've worked up to that over several weeks but I suppose that it might help.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan has performed as he always does. The 16 day vomit free spell has been followed by 3 pukes in 4 days, including 2 in less than 24 hours.


You know that is Mazy cats exact pattern too? Or was. She's doing a bit better in that regard for the last 8 or 9 months, though of course it took us years to get there. So there you, go, hope for the future. xxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> You know that is Mazy cats exact pattern too? Or was. She's doing a bit better in that regard for the last 8 or 9 months, though of course it took us years to get there. So there you, go, hope for the future. xxx


Thanks @lorilu  I know that Mazy cat always suffers badly after a long vomit free run however Dylan's average " return rate" isn't improving. He's still averaging approximately 1 vomit every 4 or maybe 5 days. It's as if he saves up his quota ready to unleash it once I feel any sense of hope.

I think that I felt particularly despondent yesterday because OH questioned what I'm doing with Dylan  . He suggested that Dylan would be better off without any meds or supplements, something which I'm sure has been said because Dylan is not at all keen on the Lactulose.Other meds/ supplements are easy to administer the Lactulose is not. I am happy sticking with the Lactulose for now because it acts as a prebiotic which Miralax does not. Dylan however is not keen. I know that Dylan would vomit daily with just a reduction in the Pred. and he won't eat without the Cetirizine.

March's vomit total was 7, 1 less than February's but 1 more than March '18. To think that only a few days before the end of the month the total was 4. I think that's why my hopes were raised ; . . . and the higher you climb the harder you fall .

Never mind, Dylan's still here and his quality of life seems pretty good. I'm sure that wouldn't have been the case if I'd continued to feed him on commercial wet instead of the raw.


----------



## lorilu

Took Mazy cat years to get to that point. Try to go easy on yourself. I know you won't. But..as you always are saying to me, there is progress, even if it is so infinitesimal as to be impossible to see. xxxx

EDIT - I don't mean to minimalize your distress dear friend. I know how discouraging and hopeless it can all seem sometimes. But yes, Dylan is happy and well, and that is what matters most.

As for OH's comments, I would just let them go. YOU know Dylan best and what is right for him. I've also had thoughts like that about Mazy cat and a few years ago when she was unable to eat at all, I ended up taking her off all supplements. I was slow to start them back up at first once she was better, wondering if she really needed them or not. Turned out, she did. xxxxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Took Mazy cat years to get to that point. Try to go easy on yourself. I know you won't. But..as you always are saying to me, there is progress, even if it is so infinitesimal as to be impossible to see. xxxx
> 
> EDIT - I don't mean to minimalize your distress dear friend. I know how discouraging and hopeless it can all seem sometimes. But yes, Dylan is happy and well, and that is what matters most.
> 
> As for OH's comments, I would just let them go. YOU know Dylan best and what is right for him. I've also had thoughts like that about Mazy cat and a few years ago when she was unable to eat at all, I ended up taking her off all supplements. I was slow to start them back up at first once she was better, wondering if she really needed them or not. Turned out, she did. xxxxx


Thanks , I've got through that awful feeling of hopelessness now. 1 of those last 3 vomits was triggered by Dylan eating something he shouldn't have. It was green and looked somewhat like artificial grass ( don't think it was though). Discounting that one would give a monthly tally of 6, as good as any other month in the last few years. I *do *think that the phage is helping.

I've dismissed OH's comments. He's admitted 1000 times that he couldn't do what I do with Dylan.Instead I've bolstered my spirits remembering my vet's comments that I'm doing a wonderful job and that I should carry on as I am.

This next comment is a bit off topic but- today I haven't been well and have been lying on the bed under a fleecy blanket. Dylan has been beside me for 8 hours and at one point was lying against me,purring, and rubbing his head against my face whilst stretching a leg gently across my neck, holding me close. My bond with Dylan is like nothing else I've ever known.


----------



## SbanR

@Forester have "liked" it not because you're poorly but for nurse Dylan doing a good job caring for you


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> @Forester have "liked" it not because you're poorly but for nurse Dylan doing a good job caring for you


Thank you @SbanR . Yes, I have an excellent, and very attentive furry nurse. Feeling unwell was worth it for the precious moments which it has supplied. I'm feeling a lot better now but he's still beside me , purring loudly and making biscuits on the fleece throw.


----------



## lorilu

A Nursey cat is a wonderful thing. Hope you feel better soon. xxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> A Nursey cat is a wonderful thing. Hope you feel better soon. xxx


Thanks . I'm much better today. Dylan however deposited his breakfast on the kitchen floor.


----------



## Forester

Dylan has settled back into his routine of vomiting approximately twice a week. Poo is every 3 - 4 days and of what I think is a fairly ideal consistency ( not as dry as would be expected in a raw fed cat ). He's still having 2ml Lactulose twice daily. 

Food wise Dylan is having pork shoulder + calcium carbonate, + taurine + cod liver oil + vit E + B vits. I've also started to add iron in the form of ferrous bisglycinate. I've started with approximately 10% of the target dose of iron. As far as I can tell ferrous bisglycinate is the form of iron which is easiest on the stomach. I would have liked to have added iron earlier in the transition however it seems that it's notorious for causing problems. I didn't want to leave it any longer though as I've calculated that his pork shoulder is only giving him just over half of the iron he needs.

I'm still giving the Pro 30 max probiotics as well as 25% of the recommended dose of Phage prebiotic. I know that I'm confusing things by introducing the iron at the same time as increasing the phage however Dylan takes so long to adjust to anything that making changes takes forever. If I go too quickly with anything he will react to it.


----------



## Forester

Today is the first day of giving Dylan a 50% dose of the phage prebiotic. He's also now up to 20% of his required additional iron. 

I have him booked in for his annual health and dental check tomorrow evening. I'm pretty sure that my vet will be happy with his physical appearance however I'm nervous about his bloods. . . . . To put that slightly more accurately, I'm terrified as to what might become evident. :Nailbiting :Bag


----------



## lorilu

{{hug}}


----------



## TriTri

Forester said:


> Today is the first day of giving Dylan a 50% dose of the phage prebiotic. He's also now up to 20% of his required additional iron.
> 
> I have him booked in for his annual health and dental check tomorrow evening. I'm pretty sure that my vet will be happy with his physical appearance however I'm nervous about his bloods. . . . . To put that slightly more accurately, I'm terrified as to what might become evident. :Nailbiting :Bag


Well good luck. You certainly couldn't be doing any more for dear Dylan :Cat
Always remember "slowly slowly catchy monkey"


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> {{hug}}


Thanks @lorilu . It's always great to have your support. I feel a bit like I would be if I were about to have an operation. It's silly really . I *know *that Dylan looks more healthy than he did before I started this transition however I worry about the effects of all the heavy duty medication he's had during his lifetime as well as about nutritional deficiencies.



TriTri said:


> Well good luck. You certainly couldn't be doing any more for dear Dylan :Cat
> Always remember "slowly slowly catchy monkey"


Thank you @TriTri . I know that I'm doing my best for Dylan, and that this raw diet is the best thing to ever happen to him. That's part of my problem though. I wouldn't , under any circumstances , want to feed him anything but his raw food no matter what my vet advised me to do. Up till now my vet has been very supportive of my decision to feed raw , and has told me that I'm doing brilliantly with him  but . . .what if things have changed ? I don't know whether I've mentioned it but Dylan has taken to drinking water, which he never used to do, hence the worry.


----------



## TriTri

Forester said:


> Thanks @lorilu . It's always great to have your support. I feel a bit like I would be if I were about to have an operation. It's silly really . I *know *that Dylan looks more healthy than he did before I started this transition however I worry about the effects of all the heavy duty medication he's had during his lifetime as well as about nutritional deficiencies.
> 
> Thank you @TriTri . I know that I'm doing my best for Dylan, and that this raw diet is the best thing to ever happen to him. That's part of my problem though. I wouldn't , under any circumstances , want to feed him anything but his raw food no matter what my vet advised me to do. Up till now my vet has been very supportive of my decision to feed raw , and has told me that I'm doing brilliantly with him  but . . .what if things have changed ? I don't know whether I've mentioned it but Dylan has taken to drinking water, which he never used to do, hence the worry.


No doubt you will keep an eye on the drinking.
Tessy went through a stage of drinking a lot of water .... a lot and with an average of about 8 wees a day, but now no-where near as much and only about 3 wees! I thought it must have been her kidneys packing in and was even told she was at stage 2-3 kidney failure. The specialist has now seen her and says stage 1 and it may never get worse. I still leave her 3-4 bowls of mineral water out incase she feels the need to go back to drinking lots. It may have even been down to her thyroid condition or the steroids....


----------



## Forester

TriTri said:


> No doubt you will keep an eye on the drinking.
> Tessy went through a stage of drinking a lot of water .... a lot and with an average of about 8 wees a day, but now no-where near as much and only about 3 wees! I thought it must have been her kidneys packing in and was even told she was at stage 2-3 kidney failure. The specialist has now seen her and says stage 1 and it may never get worse. I still leave her 3-4 bowls of mineral water out incase she feels the need to go back to drinking lots. It may have even been down to her thyroid condition or the steroids....


Thanks for that info. @TriTri .  Isn't that strange how Tessy was drinking heavily ( Oh dear, that sounds derogatory. It's not meant that way ! ) but has now reduced. It sounds as though _something _increased her kidney values for a while without her actually having kidney damage.

Dylan isn't drinking as much as he was earlier this year , although I'm sure that's down to me adding more water to his food. I worry because his last SDMA test reading was 14 which is the top of the normal range, and he's been on steroids ever since.

Since being on steroids Dylan has only ever wee'd once daily. The wees are huge , but it's only once daily. There's no change in that .

We have had a couple of kidney scares with Dylan in the past with his BUN and creatinine values being raised. Each time his urine has been *too *concentrated and I've been told not to worry. ( It doesn't stop you though, does it?  )

Anyway, I'm feeling more relaxed about the situation today. Ce sera, sera and all that. I'll meet whatever hurdle is thrown in front of me when it happens.

I suppose that I'd better start gearing myself up for our outing. Dylan is sleeping peacefully in the chair, blissfully unaware that in an hours time he'll be on the way to see his favourite vet.

'Will update you all as soon as I get the chance. Thanks again for all your support. It means a lot.


----------



## Forester

I don't know why I was panicking. My vet says that Dylan looks " absolutely fabulous" and that he sees very few cats who look as good as him. He also said that the improvement in his overall condition since being raw fed is huge. " He doesn't look like the same cat". 

The decision to take bloods today was overturned. The vet doesn't feel that it would be justified considering the evidence we have now. I'm going to get a urine sample , so that its USG can be checked. Only if the urine indicates an issue will we do bloods.

There is a tiny amount of tartar on one side of Dylan's mouth but none on the other. I will admit to smiling when the vet commented that raw fed cats tend to have better teeth than those fed wet or raw - even when the raw doesn't include bone !

 :Singing  :Singing


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## Matrod

Forester said:


> I don't know why I was panicking. My vet says that Dylan looks " absolutely fabulous" and that he sees very few cats who look as good as him. He also said that the improvement in his overall condition since being raw fed is huge. " He doesn't look like the same cat".
> 
> The decision to take bloods today was overturned. The vet doesn't feel that it would be justified considering the evidence we have now. I'm going to get a urine sample , so that its USG can be checked. Only if the urine indicates an issue will we do bloods.
> 
> There is a tiny amount of tartar on one side of Dylan's mouth but none on the other. I will admit to smiling when the vet commented that raw fed cats tend to have better teeth than those fed wet or raw - even when the raw doesn't include bone !
> 
> :Singing  :Singing


That's great! How wonderful to have the vet say such nice things about your handsome boy :Happy


----------



## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> I don't know why I was panicking. My vet says that Dylan looks " absolutely fabulous" and that he sees very few cats who look as good as him. He also said that the improvement in his overall condition since being raw fed is huge. " He doesn't look like the same cat".
> 
> The decision to take bloods today was overturned. The vet doesn't feel that it would be justified considering the evidence we have now. I'm going to get a urine sample , so that its USG can be checked. Only if the urine indicates an issue will we do bloods.
> 
> There is a tiny amount of tartar on one side of Dylan's mouth but none on the other. I will admit to smiling when the vet commented that raw fed cats tend to have better teeth than those fed wet or raw - even when the raw doesn't include bone !
> 
> :Singing  :Singing


Fantastic news, I don't know why you doubt yourself sometimes!!!!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh this is totally fabulous to read! Well done @Forester it's down to your head work and dedication that he is doing so well. Now the wee smoke catching fun begins  I recommend the "catching wee in a small pyrex dish just as he's about to wee in his tray" method myself  Good boy Dylan, you'll be glad that you've not got a shaved neck!


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## Forester

Matrod said:


> That's great! How wonderful to have the vet say such nice things about your handsome boy :Happy


Thank you @Matrod . I *am *very pleased, and quite proud. I'm proud of what I've achieved with Dylan when the vets had run out of ideas for him . I'm also proud of Dylan for coping with everything life has thrown at him without ever complaining, biting or scratching.

Dylan was given a glowing report last year too but I was worried that it might be different this time round.



oliviarussian said:


> Fantastic news, I don't know why you doubt yourself sometimes!!!!


Thanks @oliviarussian . I suppose I doubt myself because we seem to be in fairly uncharted territory. Even in the Raw for IBD Fb group I've only come across one other cat who has so many sensitivities. I feel bad because its now 21 months since I stopped Dylan's wet food and I'm still not giving him a diet which would meet the FDA and AAFCO requirements . We're getting closer, but we're not there yet.



Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh this is totally fabulous to read! Well done @Forester it's down to your head work and dedication that he is doing so well. Now the wee smoke catching fun begins  I recommend the "catching wee in a small pyrex dish just as he's about to wee in his tray" method myself  Good boy Dylan, you'll be glad that you've not got a shaved neck!


Thank you @Mrs Funkin .  TBH I think that it's down to my sheer bl**dy mindedness. How could anyone give up on an animal because they have a condition which hasn't responded to conventional treatment ? None of this is Dylan's fault and no one will stop me fighting for him.

Ahh , yes the conundrum of how to get a urine sample from a cat who 1) only wees once a day, 2) won't wee when he has company unless he's in his outdoor run, and 3) much prefers to wee at night.. I've had to do this once before and it wasn't easy- Dylan usually wees at night however he refused to wee in the artificial litter supplied ( despite me visiting every vets within 10 miles to purchase their entire stocks of plastic granules. He likes at least 3" of litter ). I waited and waited but he still didn't wee. Eventually I had to attend to my horse so I shut Dylan in the bathroom with his tray whilst I went out. What did I find when I returned home? Yes, he'd wee'd , but he'd also pooped into the pile of wee . 24 hours later I managed to collect the necessary sample.

Yes, I'm pleased that my handsome boy doesn't have a shaved neck too. More because the taking of blood has to be upsetting for Dylan than because it spoils his good looks. It also saves OH getting upset then blaming me for subjecting Dylan to such an ordeal.


----------



## lorilu

Have I ever shared this with you? How I catch Mazy cat's pee. She tells me when she has to pee (always) I follow her down, show her the bottle and ask her to pee in it and she does. I was just using an old plastic pill bottle for demonstration purposes there. Because of her "FLUTD" in her early years, she caught on very fast that seeing her pee was very important to me, so she always tells me. She tells me when she has to poop too.


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## oliviarussian

lorilu said:


> Have I ever shared this with you? How I catch Mazy cat's pee. She tells me when she has to pee (always) I follow her down, show her the bottle and ask her to pee in it and she does. I was just using an old plastic pill bottle for demonstration purposes there. Because of her "FLUTD" in her early years, she caught on very fast that seeing her pee was very important to me, so she always tells me. She tells me when she has to poop too.


Wow that's amazing, what a clever girl


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Have I ever shared this with you? How I catch Mazy cat's pee. She tells me when she has to pee (always) I follow her down, show her the bottle and ask her to pee in it and she does. I was just using an old plastic pill bottle for demonstration purposes there. Because of her "FLUTD" in her early years, she caught on very fast that seeing her pee was very important to me, so she always tells me. She tells me when she has to poop too.


Wow!!!!!!!! That's absolutely amazing. @lorilu  , It just goes to show the special bond between you and Mazy cat.

Dylan doesn't even go to pee if I'm in the same room.The only time he will pee in my presence is when I go to collect him from his run. He prefers to " go" outside so will dash into the tray when he sees me going towards the run.


----------



## Forester

I'm happy with how things are going at the moment. Dylan was sick on Saturday but that was the first vomit for 6 and 1/2 days. He was also quite constipated but my vet's suggestion of increasing Dylan's lactulose dramatically until the desired effect was achieved worked perfectly. This morning I received a huge chocolate brown present. . .and it wasn't an egg. It did make me very happy though.

I've increased Dylan's phage to 66% of target dose , and iron to 30% of the recipe quantity. It's my personal opinion that it's the phage which has brought about the recent improvements. Not only are we getting some longer runs between vomits but he's also having less nausea.

I haven't collected a urine sample yet because of the bank holiday's. I'll probably try for overnight Tuesday into Wednesday as I expect the vets will be extra busy on Tuesday. I'm not sure which days my vet is working next week so I want to be sure that someone else will deal with my precious sample if he's not in


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> I'm happy with how things are going at the moment. Dylan was sick on Saturday but that was the first vomit for 6 and 1/2 days. He was also quite constipated but my vet's suggestion of increasing Dylan's lactulose dramatically until the desired effect was achieved worked perfectly. This morning I received a huge chocolate brown present. . .and it wasn't an egg. It did make me very happy though.
> 
> I've increased Dylan's phage to 66% of target dose , and iron to 30% of the recipe quantity. It's my personal opinion that it's the phage which has brought about the recent improvements. Not only are we getting some longer runs between vomits but he's also having less nausea.
> 
> I haven't collected a urine sample yet because of the bank holiday's. I'll probably try for overnight Tuesday into Wednesday as I expect the vets will be extra busy on Tuesday. I'm not sure which days my vet is working next week so I want to be sure that someone else will deal with my precious sample if he's not in


I'm glad the phage seems to be doing the trick.


----------



## Forester

Dylan vomited twice in a 24 hour period so I decided to reduce the extra iron from 30% to 20% for a few days.

On reflection I'm thinking that the vomits may have been triggered by increased hair shedding. I had neglected to comb him at all yesterday , then today I've removed masses of hair already. I'm contemplating whether I should try to introduce some sunflower lecithin, although that would complicate matters even more.

The level of his vomiting has increased slightly since this time last year but I suppose that it's down to gradual deterioration. My vet was certainly extremely pleased with Dylan's appearance/ examination so I'm taking heart from that ( or trying to ).

I dropped Dylan's urine sample ( now wasn't that fun to obtain ) off at the vets yesterday morning but I haven't heard anything back yet. Collecting the sample had required Dylan being shut in the bathroom with his litter tray whilst I ran a tap. I'm pretty sure that he'd been ready to urinate 8 hours before this but the little sausage was not impressed with having to pee on plastic balls. I was starting to become concerned that he might burst his bladder. Life with Dylan is never boring. . . . .

ETA Today is obviously not my day. Dylan has been sick again. I also decided to ask about Dylan's urine test results. . . .and was asked to collect another sample.


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## Forester

It would appear that a lack of test results for Dylan's urine was mistakenly interpreted as no test having taken place. I've spoken with my vet, Dylan's results have just come through and are completely normal. It's been suggested that I may like to test every 3 to 6 months.


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## Mrs Funkin

Hurrah for normal wee results Dylan, good boy 

Perhaps you should buy an industrial bag of Katkor then @Forester !


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## Forester

Unfortunately my lovely boy has been sick again this morning, and has been drinking.  :Banghead :Bag :Arghh


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## lorilu

Oh no sorry you and Dylan are having such a rough time. I'm wondering if you have any stress going on...? (other than the obvious wory over Dylan, or even just too much of that) We know he reacts to your stress, is why I mention it.


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Oh no sorry you and Dylan are having such a rough time. I'm wondering if you have any stress going on...? (other than the obvious wory over Dylan, or even just too much of that) We know he reacts to your stress, is why I mention it.


Thanks @lorilu  I have been extra stressed over the last couple of days but who knows ? I am also wondering whether totting up Dylan's monthly " totals" is counterproductive. It's making it very difficult for me to put each "incident" behind me . Maybe I need to look forward instead of trying to work out what's gone wrong.


----------



## Forester

Whilst mixing Dylan's supplements into his meat yesterday evening I developed a theory to explain the recent spate of vomits. I've been measuring the dose of B vits by dissolving a set amount of vitamins in a known volume of water. I suddenly realised that my "solution" had a sediment at the bottom, resulting in recent doses containing more vitamins than earlier ones. I've diluted this sediment a little . . . . and Dylan hasn't been sick since. 

Fingers crossed. . . . . .


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## Mrs Funkin

I love that you know your boy so well Forester...and I love that you never stop trying to find answers to things. Dylan is so very lucky to have found you. I mean, who else would have looked st the bottle and thought it’s probably the sediment in the bottom? Here’s to more vomit-free days.


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## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> I love that you know your boy so well Forester...and I love that you never stop trying to find answers to things. Dylan is so very lucky to have found you. I mean, who else would have looked st the bottle and thought it's probably the sediment in the bottom? Here's to more vomit-free days.


Thanks , Mrs F . I *do *think that I was right about the B vitamins. Dylan hasn't been sick again since I diluted the mixture a little.

As for knowing this boy well, I know that he's had issues with numerous foods which are high in B vits. Earlier in the transition I spent months trying to find a source of Choline which was tolerated . I failed, utterly. . I'm aware that the recipe I'm using doesn't honestly supply the full requirement of B vits .They should come from from liver, other organs, and eggs , all of which Dylan doesn't tolerate.The person who formulated Dylan's bespoke vit/ min supplement compensated for the lack of organ meat by including iron and copper but didn't increase the B vits.

Dylan's B vit mixture includes choline in the form of choline bitartrate ( all B vit supplements seem to ) which is something which Dylan has reacted to previously. I knew that it was going to be a risky inclusion ( in terms of tolerance ) but I thought that I might get away with it in a low quantity . It seems that I have to keep that quantity low to prevent issues.

After 6 years with Dylan, I've learned to look at the minutiae rather than the bigger picture.


----------



## Forester

Dylan's vomit total for April was 10, disappointing but hey ho I'm doing my best. I just have to accept it and move on. In comparison, last April's total was 6 and the previous year's ( pre raw ) was 12.

I am starting to acknowledge that he's deteriorating, however that's no reason to give up my fight. If anything, he needs my efforts more now than he's ever done.

I've worked his phage prebiotic up to the recommended dose however I believe that he's struggling a little with the iron. I've dropped back down from 40% to 30% of the target dose and intend to stay at this level for a while, in order for him to acclimatise. I'm not inclined to change the form of iron I'm using ,ferrous bisgylcinate , because my research has indicated that this is the formula least likely to cause digestive issues.

I am concerned about Dylan's kidney function but will follow my vet's advice to wait another couple of months before repeating the urine test. I do understand my vet's reluctance to do blood tests at the moment. A previous blood test caused Dylan to wet himself at the time , and for his vomiting to flare for weeks afterwards. I'm already giving Dylan calcium carbonate as a calcium source which can act as a phosphate binder to some extent, and I'm feeding kidney friendly strains of probiotics.

Dylan does not appear bothered by his increased vomiting so I will continue to do what I've always done - try to make each day as enjoyable as possible for him.

We're so so on the constipation front. I had been trying to reduce the Lactulose a little , because Dylan really does seem to hate it, however we're now on day 5 without poo . I've therefore started our emergency dosing regime.


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## lorilu

Thanks for the update. What do you mean by deteriorating? Just the vomiting increase, or are you talking about quality of life? {{hug}}


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> Thanks for the update. What do you mean by deteriorating? Just the vomiting increase, or are you talking about quality of life? {{hug}}


Just the increase in vomiting really, as well as the addition of constipation. Quality of life seems as good apart from him trying to avoid having his medication these days. He's extremely good with his tablets but hates the Lactulose, hence why I wanted to try reducing it.

I have just cheered myself slightly after looking in an old diary. Dylan's vomit total for April 2015 was 18 and for 2016 was 20. He wasn't on steroids in either of those months though. April 16 was an interesting one because it was when he was referred to Langford. He had an awful lot of Cerenia that month ,but still managed to vomit 20 times. He was was on Hills z/d  :Arghh both wet ( which he mostly refused to eat ) and dry , and had an awful lot of stress.


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## Mrs Funkin

Gosh, he's come such a long way since then, though. I'm sorry the vomiting has increased slightly but hopefully the reduction in iron may reduce it a little until he gets a bit more used to it. Such a delicate flower, Dylan, I'm sure you must make your mum's head hurt from thinking about all the combinations of everything going on. Thank goodness the vomit total wasn't 20 again @Forester. Every cloud and all that...


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Gosh, he's come such a long way since then, though. I'm sorry the vomiting has increased slightly but hopefully the reduction in iron may reduce it a little until he gets a bit more used to it. Such a delicate flower, Dylan, I'm sure you must make your mum's head hurt from thinking about all the combinations of everything going on. Thank goodness the vomit total wasn't 20 again @Forester. Every cloud and all that...


The vomit totals for April '15 and '16 can be explained by Dylan not being on steroids at those times. Much as I hate him having to take them because of all the associated side effects they do half his number of vomits and clearly make him feel much better. My focus is on maintaining his quality of life for as long as possible.

My stomach churns when I remember life before starting Dylan on raw. Pretty much every vomit would reduce me to tears and the sound of the washing machine pumping out made me feel physically sick. I'd far rather have the current dilemmas over what to do next than the previous despair of fighting a battle which we were rapidly losing.

If only Dylan didn't take so long to adjust to changes in his diet I could try so much more. I have heaps of supplements , unopened, which I've bought in the hope that they might help in some way . I tend to buy one then find something else which sounds a better prospect. To illustrate , I've just ordered some pigs gelatine, although I already have hydrolysed beef collagen as yet untried. I'll try the Entero Chronic first though - I think.

Progress is also not helped by improvements happening so slowly. I'm acutely aware that it can take months for many products to yield discernible results.

@Mrs Funkin, Thank you once more for your kind words and encouragement . It _*does *_help!


----------



## lorilu

Regarding hairballs, I've never seen the "hairball season" start so late. I usually have this trouble in February when the angle of the light changes, which prompts the summer coat to start growing in and the winter fur to start shedding. I didn't encounter that this year, and wondered why, but it's coming now, even Queen Eva is having some. Mazy cat has brought up three huge wads three days in a row, even one without food assisting (usually she only brings them op with food, if at all) and I can only wonder how much is still in there, and slowing things down at the other end.

As for the rest...I know what you mean about buying things thinking they might help and then having them sit in the cupboard. I have a cupboard full like that too. Usually because I am afraid to try anything new, after I get it. I keep an eye on the expire dates and just remind myself well, it's there if I want to try it.

Thinking about how long it can take with these things to show improvement. Well, that's true in most cases and I try to remind myself that time is not relevant it takes as long as it takes. But when you start at a teeny amount, like we have to do with Dylan and Mazy cat, and the bad reaction is immediate, you know it's not something that is going to help. When you start with a tiny amount with nothing bad happening, then we persevere and continue to increase and hope going forward it will help, and continue to be tolerated as the amounts are increased.

Hmm I've lost my train of thought here, can't remember if I had a point x.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Regarding hairballs, I've never seen the "hairball season" start so late. I usually have this trouble in February when the angle of the light changes, which prompts the summer coat to start growing in and the winter fur to start shedding. I didn't encounter that this year, and wondered why, but it's coming now, even Queen Eva is having some. Mazy cat has brought up three huge wads three days in a row, even one without food assisting (usually she only brings them op with food, if at all) and I can only wonder how much is still in there, and slowing things down at the other end.
> 
> As for the rest...I know what you mean about buying things thinking they might help and then having them sit in the cupboard. I have a cupboard full like that too. Usually because I am afraid to try anything new, after I get it. I keep an eye on the expire dates and just remind myself well, it's there if I want to try it.
> 
> Thinking about how long it can take with these things to show improvement. Well, that's true in most cases and I try to remind myself that time is not relevant it takes as long as it takes. But when you start at a teeny amount, like we have to do with Dylan and Mazy cat, and the bad reaction is immediate, you know it's not something that is going to help. When you start with a tiny amount with nothing bad happening, then we persevere and continue to increase and hope going forward it will help, and continue to be tolerated as the amounts are increased.
> 
> *Hmm I've lost my train of thought here, can't remember if I had a point x.*



Ha ha, points are over rated  . Who cares whether you forgot where you were going ? It's all relevant and therefore valuable.

@lorilu, I'm guessing that the extremes of climate in the US makes your hairball season more marked than ours . Sometimes our seasons hardly seem to change at all,  (says me on a freezing cold , wet May day  ). In years gone by Dylan has vomited a lot of tiny hair balls , usually around the size of a small grape, but so far this year I don't think he's vomited one at all. Vomiting hair is always accompanied by food in Dylan's case.

I'm becoming increasingly confident that my combing sessions which take place several times each day are helping with the hair situation. . . . . and they're definitely good for my relationship with Dylan. He adores being combed  and will present himself to me once he sees his comb. His purr, when combed ,comes to a crescendo. and his eyes go even more soft than usual.

It is with great sadness that I appreciate how you understand my situation completely, maybe even more than I do. Mazy cat is so incredibly lucky to have you, and I'm lucky to have been able to benefit from your experiences with her. I wish that you hadn't had to go through what you have but I'm grateful for all of your advice and support. Without your support and encouragement I would have found all of this so much harder than it has been. xx


----------



## Forester

I thought I'd post to celebrate a week without vomiting ( although it's probably asking for trouble ).

Food wise , Dylan's having pork shoulder + calcium carbonate + taurine + cod liver oil+ vit e + b vits + 30% of his additional iron requirement.

Meds wise he's having 2 x 1mg prednisolone, 5mg cetirizine and 2 x 2ml lactulose 

I'm also giving him a 2 x 1/2 capsule Pro 30 max probiotic, 1/4 capsule ( that's the recommended dose ) phage prebiotic and I've just started introducing the Entero Chronic. Entero Chronic I started at just 2.5% of target dose but have now moved onto 10% of target dose. The EC is being mixed into food as I don't want to have to give any more capsules than necessary.

Dylan's weight remains at 5.55kg.

I'm pretty sure that Dylan has been struggling with the iron,( just as he did with the B vits and cod liver oil ) so I'm going slower with that than I'd really like to. My hope is that the Entero Chronic can help with the integrity of his gut lining and hence make it easier for him to cope with the iron. 

I've also obtained some pork gelatine in case I feel inspired to try him with that.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

(It possibly is tempting fate but I'm just popping in to cheer a little "yay" for the lack of vomit. Good boy Dylan. Hurry slowly, @Forester)


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> (It possibly is tempting fate but I'm just popping in to cheer a little "yay" for the lack of vomit. Good boy Dylan. Hurry slowly, @Forester)


I'm repeating your cheer.. I have to enjoy the good days when they happen. It's amazing how the gift of a brown sausage in Dylan's tray can also bring a smile to my face.


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## SbanR

Forester said:


> I'm repeating your cheer.. I have to enjoy the good days when they happen. It's amazing how the gift of a brown sausage in Dylan's tray can also bring a smile to my face.


It's the little things in life you have to appreciate


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I'm repeating your cheer.. I have to enjoy the good days when they happen. It's amazing how the gift of a brown sausage in Dylan's tray can also bring a smile to my face.


Especially when it's chock full of fur!


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Especially when it's chock full of fur!


That's still a dream scenario however I'm grateful for what I have now.

This morning my little lad is turbocharged . If I didn't know everything which has passed his lips I'd be wondering what he'd taken  . His racing around the house and leaping off furniture, tipping it over, resembles a scene from a cartoon .That's my boy, he refuses to let his IBD get in the way of enjoying life.


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## SbanR

Living life to the full Forester


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## Forester

SbanR said:


> Living life to the full Forester


Haha . Peace now reigns. Dylan's motto appears to be " play hard then sleep hard". With him there's no in between.


----------



## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> That's still a dream scenario however I'm grateful for what I have now.
> 
> This morning my little lad is turbocharged . If I didn't know everything which has passed his lips I'd be wondering what he'd taken  . His racing around the house and leaping off furniture, tipping it over, resembles a scene from a cartoon .That's my boy, he refuses to let his IBD get in the way of enjoying life.


Would have loved to have seen him! He's keeping you on your toes


----------



## Forester

I _think _that the Entero Chronic https://www.bioiberica.com/en/products/animal-health/medicina-interna/entero-chronic is proving to be a good addition to Dylan's regime. In the 10 days since I started its introduction Dylan has vomited once and produced 4 poos, 3 of them on the slightly soft side. I'm still only giving 25% of the recommended dose for a 5kg cat ( Dylan is 5.55kg ) but plan to increase to 33% tomorrow. I've also been able to reduce Dylan's lactulose a little. The only fly in the ointment is that Dilly doesn't appear over enthusiastic about the taste ( The story of my life  ).

I know that I should probably be working harder on the completeness of the diet however, if this product can calm some of the inflammation in Dylan's gut then he might find it easier to tolerate ingredients which he currently struggles with.

If I _have _to syringe the EC I feel that it might be worth it however I'll stick with mixing it into food for now on. My gut instinct ( please excuse the pun ) is that Dylan's GI system will benefit more from the EC if it is mixed in with his food.


----------



## SbanR

Happy news. Hope you continue to see an improvement


----------



## Forester

Progress seems to be continuing. I've increased Dylan's iron to 40% of target dose and his Entero Chronic to 50% of target dose. Despite the odds on May being a good month for Dylan appearing extremely unlikely 19 days ago, things are now looking better. After 2 vomits in the first three days , there have been just 2 in the next 19 days. If this good run can last till the end of the month I'll be as happy as any lottery winner. That's probably jinxed it now but I can dream. 

It's funny how one can go from the depths of despair to almost euphoria on the strength of a few days without cat vomit.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Progress seems to be continuing. I've increased Dylan's iron to 40% of target dose and his Entero Chronic to 50% of target dose. Despite the odds on May being a good month for Dylan appearing extremely unlikely 19 days ago, things are now looking better. After 2 vomits in the first three days , there have been just 2 in the next 19 days. If this good run can last till the end of the month I'll be as happy as any lottery winner. That's probably jinxed it now but I can dream.
> 
> *It's funny how one can go from the depths of despair to almost euphoria on the strength of a few days without cat vomit.*


I dunno sounds pretty normal to me! xx


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## Forester

lorilu said:


> I dunno sounds pretty normal to me! xx


 :Hilarious I'm in good company then ! xx


----------



## Forester

I'm biting my nails till the end of this month.

Dylan's current monthly vomit total stands at 5. I've been going back through my records looking for a monthly total that low, and haven't found one yet. So far I've gone back as far as Jan '16.and the lowest total has been 6 , for several months early last year. I really believe that this improvement is down to the Entero chronic , though the Floraphage might have a hand in it too.

Oh, and I've been able to reduce Dylan's Lactulose too, because his poo has become softer and more frequent.

He's currently having pork + limestone flour+ taurine+ cod liver oil+ vit A +B vits+ 40% of his supplementary iron

2mg pred., 5mg cetirizine, 2 x 1 and 1/2 ml Lactulose. 2x 1/2 cap Pro30max probiotic + 1/4 cap Floraphage + 70% Entero Chronic.

Dylan's been a bit gassy the last couple of days so I intended to keep his EC to 60% however my finger slipped and he got 70%.


I still have more iron, potassium iodide and manganese to add but we are getting there slowly.

ETA Whoops , I forgot the copper which I also need to add.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester this is brilliant to read. I am so pleased for you and Dylan (obviously not TOO pleased as we all know where that leads  ) - such results are born of great dedication to giving your beautiful boy the best care he can possibly have. I am honestly so delighted xx


----------



## ebonycat

So pleased to hear Dylan’s vomit total for this month is so low. Praying it stays this way.
Well done to you & of course to Dylan. 
You are so in tune with your boy’s health, it’s so lovely to hear x


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester this is brilliant to read. I am so pleased for you and Dylan (obviously not TOO pleased as we all know where that leads  ) - such results are born of great dedication to giving your beautiful boy the best care he can possibly have. I am honestly so delighted xx


Thank you  :Shamefullyembarrased. Such results are probably born from frustration at having exhausted all the suggestions made by numerous vets and sheer b**dy mindedness !. I wish that I'd discovered the EC years ago. Would it have prevented the disaster area which is Dylan's GI system? Of course I'll never know... .. . .

It's odd , I feel guilty about not having tried this product before now. Although I've only heard about it recently it's been around for a number of years.



ebonycat said:


> So pleased to hear Dylan's vomit total for this month is so low. Praying it stays this way.
> Well done to you & of course to Dylan.
> You are so in tune with your boy's health, it's so lovely to hear x


Thank you too @ebonycat  . Being " in tune" is a result of having studied Dylan closely 24/7 for several years. When it's a case of watch closely or get stains on the carpet, in the bed, or down the back of the furniture one's attention becomes focused !

- - - - -

I'm still holding my breath! . . . . .and I've checked my 2015 diary, every month was awful,.If only I could find 2014.


----------



## Forester

We've done it!!!!!!!! 

Dylan has vomited less in May '19 than he has in any month since. . . . . .wait for it. . . . . September 2014!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now if he can manage till midnight Sun/ Mon we will have achieved 4 weeks on 3 vomits. I know that Dylan's total would be considered atrocious by anyone else but I am so happy to have got this far, and Dylan seems pretty happy too.


----------



## SbanR

Hooray! Massive Congratulations


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Hooray! Massive Congratulations


Thank you!  I must admit to feeling a little pride this morning , as well as overwhelming joy.

I realised something else yesterday evening. Dylan has always been playful when I interact with him using his toys, and when he comes across things to play with during his daily activities, but he's recently been seeking out toys with which to play by himself. It's a long time since he's done that. It wasn't until I saw him placing toys inside his play tunnel then going back to the toy box to collect more that I realised he hasn't done that for years He has to be feeling better!


----------



## SbanR

Forester said:


> Thank you!  I must admit to feeling a little pride this morning , as well as overwhelming joy.
> 
> I realised something else yesterday evening. Dylan has always been playful when I interact with him using his toys, and when he comes across things to play with during his daily activities, but he's recently been seeking out toys with which to play by himself. It's a long time since he's done that. It wasn't until I saw him placing toys inside his play tunnel then going back to the toy box to collect more that I realised he hasn't done that for years He has to be feeling better!


What a morale booster. And good luck with the breath holding


----------



## ChaosCat

Great news! So glad for both of you!


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> We've done it!!!!!!!!
> 
> Dylan has vomited less in May '19 than he has in any month since. . . . . .wait for it. . . . . September 2014!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Now if he can manage till midnight Sun/ Mon we will have achieved 4 weeks on 3 vomits. I know that Dylan's total would be considered atrocious by anyone else but I am so happy to have got this far, and Dylan seems pretty happy too.


I often read but never comment (we do enough of that behind the scenes) but I cant let this go without comment 











Well done to slave and the apprentice from the Master xx​


----------



## ebonycat

Forester said:


> We've done it!!!!!!!!
> 
> Dylan has vomited less in May '19 than he has in any month since. . . . . .wait for it. . . . . September 2014!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Now if he can manage till midnight Sun/ Mon we will have achieved 4 weeks on 3 vomits. I know that Dylan's total would be considered atrocious by anyone else but I am so happy to have got this far, and Dylan seems pretty happy too.


Yay!! Whoop whoop whoop
If I could 'Like' your post a hundred times I would  
Fantastic news 
Well done Slave & well done gorgeous boy Dylan
He must be feeling so much better if he's playing with all his toys.
So lovely to hear.
Sending heaps of vomit free day vibes to Dylan & stress free vibes to you 
You should be so proud of everything you do for your gorgeous boy xx


----------



## oliviarussian

Fantastic news Sylv, I love how Dylan is playing more! You must be over the moon


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh I am SO over the moon for you and Dylan  fan flipping tastic!

Oscar has been advised of the developments and says well done to Dylan too.

Oh this really has made my day


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> We've done it!!!!!!!!
> 
> Dylan has vomited less in May '19 than he has in any month since. . . . . .wait for it. . . . . September 2014!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Now if he can manage till midnight Sun/ Mon we will have achieved 4 weeks on 3 vomits.* I know that Dylan's total would be considered atrocious by anyone else* but I am so happy to have got this far, and Dylan seems pretty happy too.


Not really. Sadly most people consider cats vomiting as "normal". And most vets perpetuate this fallacy.

Congratulations to you both! By the way I've been thinking........would you object to me giving a brief synapses of Mazy cat's journey here? It might help someone else. I am sure I know the answer but wanted to ask anyway. xx


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Thank you!  I must admit to feeling a little pride this morning , as well as overwhelming joy.
> 
> I realised something else yesterday evening. Dylan has always been playful when I interact with him using his toys, and when he comes across things to play with during his daily activities, but he's recently been seeking out toys with which to play by himself. It's a long time since he's done that. It wasn't until I saw him placing toys inside his play tunnel then going back to the toy box to collect more that I realised he hasn't done that for years He has to be feeling better!


Oh YAY!


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> What a morale booster. And good luck with the breath holding


Thank you . I'm getting quite good at it now .



ChaosCat said:


> Great news! So glad for both of you!


Thanks @ChaosCat . It's funny how things start to click into place when you're least expecting it. I'd recently resigned myself to thinking that it was all downhill from now on. How wrong can you be.



buffie said:


> I often read but never comment (we do enough of that behind the scenes) but I cant let this go without comment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well done to slave and the apprentice from the Master xx​


Thank you, as always. But for your metaphorical shoulder and Mr M's excellent example I'd have been dragged away by those men in white coats many years ago!



ebonycat said:


> Yay!! Whoop whoop whoop
> If I could 'Like' your post a hundred times I would
> Fantastic news
> Well done Slave & well done gorgeous boy Dylan
> He must be feeling so much better if he's playing with all his toys.
> So lovely to hear.
> Sending heaps of vomit free day vibes to Dylan & stress free vibes to you
> You should be so proud of everything you do for your gorgeous boy xx


Thanks @ebonycat  You're right , today I do feel proud.



oliviarussian said:


> Fantastic news Sylv, I love how Dylan is playing more! You must be over the moon


Thanks OR.  I'm like a kid at Christmas.











Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh I am SO over the moon for you and Dylan  fan flipping tastic!
> 
> Oscar has been advised of the developments and says well done to Dylan too.
> 
> Oh this really has made my day
> 
> View attachment 405643


Thank *you* ( and Oscar )Mrs F . You've played a hand in this too, remember.

Dylan appreciates all the praise which has come his way .











lorilu said:


> Not really. Sadly most people consider cats vomiting as "normal". And most vets perpetuate this fallacy.
> 
> Congratulations to you both! By the way I've been thinking........would you object to me giving a brief synapses of Mazy cat's journey here? It might help someone else. I am sure I know the answer but wanted to ask anyway. xx


Thank you @lorilu. We *definitely* wouldn't have made it this far without you. Of course you know the answer!!!! This is about how a raw diet can benefit a cat with IBD and about the difficulties which can be encountered in the process. Where's the problem????? Mazy cat fits the profile perfectly. . . . .and was the inspiration for my efforts with Dylan.xx



lorilu said:


> Oh YAY!


----------



## Forester

Typically , Dylan has followed his brilliant performance in May with 3 vomits in 4 days. I'm therefore holding his iron at 50% and his Entero chronic at 70%. I'm hoping that he'll settle again soon so that I can continue to progress this transition.

On the bright side he looks fabulous and has rediscovered his " misspent youth ".

@lorilu , you haven't yet posted any information about Mazy cat , and how a raw diet has helped her. Are you , as well as Mazy cat, OK? With her situation being similar to Dylan's in some ways , yet completely different in others, I do think it would be useful to be able to compare and contrast the two of them. I think your management of Mazy cat's" bad days" could be particularly useful to others.

As you're aware I wanted this thread to be of use to other owners of cats with IBD who might be contemplating trying to feed a raw diet.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> @lorilu , you haven't yet posted any information about Mazy cat , and how a raw diet has helped her. Are you , as well as Mazy cat, OK? With her situation being similar to Dylan's in some ways , yet completely different in others, I do think it would be useful to be able to compare and contrast the two of them. I think your management of Mazy cat's" bad days" could be particularly useful to others.
> 
> As you're aware I wanted this thread to be of use to other owners of cats with IBD who might be contemplating trying to feed a raw diet.


Yes we're okay thanks. I formulate what I want to say in this thread daily in my head but haven't yet had the energy to put it down in writing. I want to keep it short as possible so people can read it without losing interest, but I tend to go off the long end when telling Mazy cat's story (or any other story haha). Since I took the day off today, maybe I'll work on it this morning, thanks to your prompting.xxx


----------



## Forester

I agree with keeping things fairly brief at first to maintain interest. IMHO small details will be more valuable when included in situations to which they are relevant. Would differences between Mazy cat and Dylan in terms of tolerances , or a short resume of Mazy cat's history be a good place to start.- not telling you what to write , of course.


----------



## Forester

We're plodding along but still moving in the right direction, I think.

Last week's blip has been followed by almost 6 days without a vomit so I'm hopeful that we're back on track.At the weekend I tried increasing Dylan's Entero chronic to 80% of target dose but have had to revert to 70%. His dislike of the taste at 80% was sufficient to bring on a refusal to eat until the recipe was adjusted. As Dylan likes to make clear* I'm* not in control of this transition,* he *is!.

I have however increased his iron from 50% to 60% without him either noticing or reacting badly , . . . .yet.

Poo is being produced at the rate of 3 per week, and on a lactulose dose of 1.5ml twice daily, half the rate he was having around Christmas time.

Dylan is clearly enjoying life. His new favourite game is to run up the back of the rocking chair before vaulting off the top . It is , apparently, particularly exhilarating if the slaves are watching.It's also one of the behaviours which OH frowns upon. Ooops.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> I agree with keeping things fairly brief at first to maintain interest. IMHO small details will be more valuable when included in situations to which they are relevant. Would differences between Mazy cat and Dylan in terms of tolerances , or a short resume of Mazy cat's history be a good place to start.- not telling you what to write , of course.


I am working on Mazy cat's story but it is very difficult to keep it short. So much background seems to be needed. I am thinking I may post it in sections. But first I will write it all out, and then try to do a synopsis from the whole, then people can read the whole thing, or just read the summary points as they choose.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I am working on Mazy cat's story but it is very difficult to keep it short. So much background seems to be needed. I am thinking I may post it in sections. But first I will write it all out, and then try to do a synopsis from the whole, then people can read the whole thing, or just read the summary points as they choose.


I'm sure that whatever you choose to do will be fine!!!!!


----------



## Forester

Dylan vomited today, for the first time in almost 10 days. 

Appetite has been down a little over the last couple of days however I'm now giving 70% of his iron quota.I don't think he likes the taste.

I'm feeling more positive than I have been for quite some time.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

(I'm liking the feeling positive, not the Dylan vomit)


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> (I'm liking the feeling positive, not the Dylan vomit)


Thanks . I'm liking the almost 10 days without vomiting. I'll have to check my records but the last 6 or 7 weeks has to be the best spell he's had since early 2014. It's hard to believe that he's the same cat who started this transition around 2 years ago. I won't deny that in those 2 years I've shed bucket loads of tears over him but I'm confident that I've done the right thing.


----------



## Forester

Dylan's been looking slightly uncomfortable after eating during the last couple of days .He's also decided that the current mix of food is not fit for consumption. In desperation I tried him with a mix which was minus the Entero chronic as well as the iron. It was wolfed down. 

I'm desperately hoping that 24 hours worth of the limited ingredient food will be sufficient to get him eating again.

I found the remains of a small pool of liquid on the kitchen table this morning. Dylan had tried to cover it with his bed. There was no trace of any food amongst the liquid so I'm wondering whether he vomited water . I prefer not to think of another possible scenario.:Vomit


----------



## lorilu

Well I'm glad you got him to eat. Back to normal today I hope?


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Well I'm glad you got him to eat. Back to normal today I hope?


Thanks @lorilu .We're still on the mix without EC or iron. That's being eaten with relish.

I've been debating what to do now. I _think_ it's the ferrous bisglycinate which is giving him stomach ache however he doesn't like the taste of the Entero chronic. My plan for today includes establishing how much EC I can fit into a size 3 capsule. I do not want to reduce the EC as I'm confident that's responsible for Dylan's recent improvement. The iron I'll reduce to 50% for now , increasing it more slowly. Yes, I know he needs the iron but I have to go at a pace he can cope with.

I have wondered about leaving the iron at 50% for a while in order to consolidate its addition , but to slowly start adding some potassium iodide. I do feel that Dylan is tolerating the iron in that it's not caused a spike in vomiting, just a bit of discomfort. If he's going to react to something he usually does it on just a very small proportion of the required amount. IMHO the fact that we've managed to get to 70% with the iron without incident is telling me that he will be OK with it if I increase more slowly. If you remember, I had to hold both the cod liver oil and the B vits at less than the desired dose for quite some time before I was able to increase .

Dylan already has 4 capsules each day as well as 2 doses of lactulose so I don't want to add too many more capsules to the regime. I'm not keen on the idea of syringing the EC.


----------



## Forester

Dylan is now on the full dose of Entero chronic, 50% mixed in with his food and 50% in capsules given at the same time as his meds. IMHO the EC is the best thing to happen to him since the raw diet. 

I'm currently only giving 50% of his supplementary iron because any more makes him uncomfortable. His system is obviously taking a while to adjust to it.

I plan to give him a couple more days on current dosages ( to be sure that he's coping with the full dose of EC ) then I'll try adding some potassium iodide. The KI requirement is very small - just 12.6mg per 150g meat so I'll probably have to start with around 25%. Although it's theoretically possible to weigh 1mg with my scales they tend to not register until around 6mg ( which I'll then halve ).

On the vomit front we've had 8 in 7 and a half weeks.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Dylan is now on the full dose of Entero chronic, 50% mixed in with his food and 50% in capsules given at the same time as his meds. IMHO the EC is the best thing to happen to him since the raw diet.
> 
> I'm currently only giving 50% of his supplementary iron because any more makes him uncomfortable. His system is obviously taking a while to adjust to it.
> 
> I plan to give him a couple more days on current dosages ( to be sure that he's coping with the full dose of EC ) then I'll try adding some potassium iodide. The KI requirement is very small - just 12.6mg per 150g meat so I'll probably have to start with around 25%. Although it's theoretically possible to weigh 1mg with my scales they tend to not register until around 6mg ( which I'll then halve ).
> 
> On the vomit front we've had 8 in 7 and a half weeks.


Great news! xxx


----------



## TriTri

Forester said:


> On the vomit front we've had 8 in 7 and a half weeks.


Wow! What a difference! Bless him. Well done you.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Great news! xxx





TriTri said:


> Wow! What a difference! Bless him. Well done you.


Thanks both . There does appear to have been a huge improvement since I started Dylan with the Floraphage and Entero chronic.

Typically ,this morning, only 10 minutes after I'd bumped into my vet and provided him with a very positive update, Dylan decided to "recycle" his mid morning meal.

In my euphoria regarding Dylan's recent improvement , I've added a small quantity of potassium iodide to the next batch of food.Fingers crossed I'm not getting over confident.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Good boy Dylan...though reminding your mum that you are in charge is often done in more pleasant ways than recycling your elevenses.

What great progress @Forester - you really are the best slave a boy could wish for


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good boy Dylan...though reminding your mum that you are in charge is often done in more pleasant ways than recycling your elevenses.
> 
> What great progress @Forester - you really are the best slave a boy could wish for


Thank you for your kind words @Mrs Funkin  . Unfortunately Dylan would appear to disagree. He can't understand how I can be unaware that food containing potassium iodide, even if you need a microscope to find it, is the work of the Devil.

I've resorted to Fortiflora , as well as nutritional yeast, and still the little s*D, sorry . . .sausage, won't touch it. I love him really, but it *is* as if he has to remind me who's in charge of this campaign.


----------



## Forester

The bowls in Dylan's auto feeder were both empty by 6am . 2 courses of breakfast have also both been consumed, and in double quick time.


----------



## SbanR

Three cheers for Fortiflora and nutritional yeast!
Hip, hip, hip hooray
Hip, hip, hip hooray
Hip, hip, hip hooray
:Joyful:Joyful:Joyful


----------



## Forester

June ended disastrously, 3 vomits in 27 hours. This gave a monthly total of 9, worse than May's 7 but better than June 16- 18 which were 13, 10, 12 respectively. We are edging forwards , but the backward steps are never far away.

July started with very poor appetite, in fact barely any appetite at all. I have a sneaky feeling that the biggest culprit with regards to the food aversion is the Entero chronic, just the ingredient which has clearly been helping , a lot.

I've tried to combat Dylan's dislike of the EC by administering a large proportion of the dose in capsules however I'm starting to think that such uneven dosing is causing a problem. The greatly increased vomiting has only been since I started giving EC this way.

I've now withdrawn EC, iodine, iron and Bvits as I believe that any or all of these are causing reduced appetite. I'm adding one ingredient at a time to see what happens. Yesterday I included B vits, later today I'll make up a batch with 50% iron also included.

I WILL get there eventually. I just wish that Dylan would work with me rather than against me. There again, his cuteness and sweet nature make up for everything.

I was recently asked in a PM how I remain so calm amidst all this. The answer has 2 parts 1) I've had this for the last 6 years . 2) What other option is there ? I'm sure as heck not giving up on my lad, the show must go on!. Best foot forward and all that. . . .


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> What other option is there ?


Yep, pretty much what it comes down to. xxxxx


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Yep, pretty much what it comes down to. xxxxx


You've got it lorilu . Lets be honest , you've had it for longer than I have.  One consideration in trying to continually add more to Dylan's diet is that the diet STILL isn't complete. I have to get there , or pretty much there, before I can think of trying other ways to help my boy.

Back on the subject of calmness, I can assure the original questioner that I_ have_ cried on the phone to my vets, however it doesn't help Dylan . I have to direct all my energy into helping him, not feeling sorry for myself or angry about the situation. He needs me fit so I can battle on his behalf, after all there is no one else to do it!


----------



## Forester

Things are better than they were when I last reported however my positivity has gone into hiding.

Dylan's appetite is slightly better however it isn't good. I've been attributing the daytime inappetence to the current warm weather however I have a nasty feeling that I''m just making excuses. Dylan is also less energetic than he has been before however, once more, is it down to the weather ?. I've weighed him this morning 5.34kg , yet another loss.

I submitted the urine sample due in July to my vets last week. My vet seemed happy enough with the results however I am still concerned. They didn't even test the specific gravity, just focused on the creatinine: protein ratio which , at 0.07 was " fine".

Diet wise I'm back to giving 50% iron and 50% Entero chronic. I've withdrawn the b vits for now whilst looking into another source. I have seen a number of supplements which could supply Dylan's B vits however they all contain considerable levels of Vitamin A. I don't want to add more vit A because it's toxic in excess.

I'm thinking that I may have to keep Dylan's EC at 50% because he doesn't like the taste. Giving it in capsules was clearly a disaster. As soon as I stopped doing that his spate of vomiting stopped.

I'm currently debating whether to try increasing iron to 60% or to leave the iron at 50% whilst I concentrate on introducing iodine. Dylan's black coat is looking decidedly brown in some lights possibly reflecting the lack of iodine.

I would not swap Dylan for any other cat on the planet but there are times when I dream of being able to follow a recipe which is complete.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Things are better than they were when I last reported however my positivity has gone into hiding.
> 
> Dylan's appetite is slightly better however it isn't good. I've been attributing the daytime inappetence to the current warm weather however I have a nasty feeling that I''m just making excuses. Dylan is also less energetic than he has been before however, once more, is it down to the weather ?. I've weighed him this morning 5.34kg , yet another loss.
> 
> I submitted the urine sample due in July to my vets last week. My vet seemed happy enough with the results however I am still concerned. They didn't even test the specific gravity, just focused on the creatinine: protein ratio which , at 0.07 was " fine".
> 
> Diet wise I'm back to giving 50% iron and 50% Entero chronic. I've withdrawn the b vits for now whilst looking into another source. I have seen a number of supplements which could supply Dylan's B vits however they all contain considerable levels of Vitamin A. I don't want to add more vit A because it's toxic in excess.
> 
> I'm thinking that I may have to keep Dylan's EC at 50% because he doesn't like the taste. Giving it in capsules was clearly a disaster. As soon as I stopped doing that his spate of vomiting stopped.
> 
> I'm currently debating whether to try increasing iron to 60% or to leave the iron at 50% whilst I concentrate on introducing iodine. Dylan's black coat is looking decidedly brown in some lights possibly reflecting the lack of iodine.
> 
> I would not swap Dylan for any other cat on the planet but there are times when I dream of being able to follow a recipe which is complete.


XXXXX


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well, if it's any help (it possibly isn't), Oscar has only been eating about 60g until the evening. 

I do hope that Dylan has perked up a little in terms of his eating today. Come on young man, don't worry your mum.


----------



## Forester

Thanks for your words of reassurance @Mrs Funkin  . I think it's quite normal for cats to be unenthusiastic about food whilst the weather is hot , and I don't think you should worry about Oscar's eating pattern during hot weather. I'm confident that he'll be getting plenty. There are very few slaves who will be as sensitive to his needs and as attentive to him as you are!  .To compare,Dylan probably didn't eat 50g during the 24 hours of Saturday or Sunday. Yes, raw is more energy and nutrient dense than wet food but it was about 1/3 of his consumption when he's eating well.

Dylan eats a little better if I omit his Entero chronic and B vits. It feels like a catch 22 situation. The EC clearly helps him but if he won't eat the food containing it, and can't cope with it in capsules I don't have much chance of getting it into him.

On Sunday afternoon I tried giving him a tiny blob of Gimpet vitamin paste which I'd added to an order of cat litter in order to get free carriage. I'd hoped that it might prove a palatable source of B vits as well as an incentive to eat. Well, I can consign that idea to the scrap heap. The vitamin paste along with the food it had accompanied reappeared almost before I could pick up the dish. Moral of the story - if it's likely to contain anything which might be off limits, DON'T BUY IT. It will me a waste of money and might well set by little lad back even further than he is now.I will confess to not having added this vomit to my monthly total, after all it was ENTIRELY my fault.

I do have an alternative source of MOS which was one of the ingredients in the EC. I've bought this https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001FYRBPM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It is very highly recommended in the Raw for IBD Fb Group although I suspect that it's possibly more effective as a preventative for dire rear than for vomiting. It's given in a very small dose so perhaps I might get away with it. There again I took Dylan off S Boulardii back in December as I thought it might be exacerbating Dylan's constipation.


----------



## Forester

Since I last posted I've been feeding a mix without Entero chronic or B vits and Dylan has been eating with much more enthusiasm. In recent weeks his coat had started to become dull but the shine is already returning. I imagine the deterioration will have been down to reduced food intake.

On the plus side I'm now giving 60% iron and have been doing so for over a week. I'm not intending to increase to 70% just yet. I feel he needs more time to consolidate the 60% and I'd like to try reintroducing B vits. My old tub of B vits was looking damp and discoloured ( I believe it deteriorates very easily ) so I've invested in a fresh bottle. This time I've gone for different brand and am intending to keep them in the fridge. I've added a tiny amount to today's mixture and intend to build up gradually again, although hopefully not as slowly as I had to the first time.

I've been studying a different food recipe., this one from Feline Nutrition, and note that it includes a higher dose of B vits than the Raw for IBD recipe. I've long felt that the quantity of B vits I was giving was inadequate in view of the absence of liver, other organs and eggs from Dylan's diet. I'm therefore aiming to increase to a higher level of B vits than I was giving before, . . . . .so long as Dylan tolerates them and will eat the food. B vits are notorious for having a strong smell so whether I manage to give more will be in the lap of the gods. I can only hope.

Dylan was sick today but his total for July currently stands at 5.


----------



## lorilu

I keep my B complex capsules in the fridge. The good thing is (and you probably already know this) B is water soluble so he can't be overdosed on it. He pees out what he doesn't use.


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> I keep my B complex capsules in the fridge. The good thing is (and you probably already know this) B is water soluble so he can't be overdosed on it. He pees out what he doesn't use.


 Thanks for adding that @lorilu. I had intended to mention the inability to overdose, but forgot.


----------



## Forester

July's vomit total was 6. Not as good as May ( 5 ) but better than June ( 9 ) as well as July 18 ( 7 ) , July 17 ( 13 ) and July 16 ( 15 ).

Dylan's appetite is better since I dropped the Entero chronic however I suspect the benefits he gained from taking it are waning.He looks good however with a shiny coat and plenty of energy ( when it suits him  )

Diet wise I'm now giving 70% of his supplementary iron requirement and have restarted his B vitamins . I'm using a different brand of B vits which seem to have much less odour than the previous brand.

I'm hoping to feed the B vit allocation taken from a Feline Nutrition recipe rather than the Raw for IBD one which I've been using up until now. The new recipe includes approximately 10 times the quantity of B vits that were in the old recipe, although there is a provision for the quantity to be halved ( to 5 times the previous total ). I had thought that I'd almost worked Dylan up to having his full requirement however I now realise that I put my decimal point in the wrong place .I need to increase by a factor of ten , or 5 if we can't manage the 10.

I weighed Dylan this morning and was pleased to see that he's gained a little. After dropping to 5.38kg he's back to 5.42kg. It's not much of a gain but it's movement in the desired direction.


----------



## Forester

The good news - weight is back up to 5.49kg ( Yes, that was a huge sigh of relief you heard in the background ) .

On a less positive note, B vitamins ( and foods rich in them ) continue to pose major problems for Dylan . I despair of ever getting his intake of them to an acceptable level. He *is *coping much better with the different brand and method of feeding. I used to use Natural Factors B complex https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152642381534 , disolved in water but am now using Solgar https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solgar-For...34206&s=gateway&sprefix=Solgar,aps,164&sr=8-6, measured out using a small weight scale.

I do appreciate that I was hoping to give 10 times the dose in the previous recipe however I can't see me getting anywhere near it anytime soon. The aim was to get to 150mg weight measured on my scale. N B this is the measured weight NOT a measure of how much B vits are included ( if you follow my ,meaning ) . 75mg is described as an acceptable level so I'd be relatively happy with that, although Dylan still misses out on the B vits he'd get from liver etc. 35mg weight caused 3 vomits in 4 days so we're back down to 25mg.

Dylan is now having 80% of his iron requirement so I suppose that's something.

I'm considering leaving B vits at their current level for now and attempting to add potassium iodide again. Maybe Dylan needs much longer to adjust to the B vits. I know that increasing more than one ingredient at a time isn't ideal however it seems to be working with the iron.

I certainly didn't realise that " building" a diet for Dylan from scratch would be this difficult however it *is *worth all the effort. I dread to think where Dylan would be if still fed commercial food, that is assuming he'd even be here.


----------



## Forester

On a lighter note I've just been made to realise how lucky I am. I've just read about a cat who only tolerates . . . . .crocodile  . I think my butcher might have heart failure.


----------



## Forester

Urgh !!!!!!!!! :Banghead :Bag  :Arghh

Dylan's been sick twice today already, making 8 times for August so far. . . . .


----------



## chillminx

I'm sorry to hear this @Forester.  Awful for Dylan, and frustrating for you! x


----------



## Forester

chillminx said:


> I'm sorry to hear this @Forester.  Awful for Dylan, and frustrating for you! x


Oh @chillminx , it is frustrating, all the more so because I don't know where to turn to for advice.No one else seems to have a cat quite as sensitive as Dylan.

Today's situation has now become even worse . This morning's vomit contained a tiny holly leaf which must have blown into Dylan's run. It came up whole with no teeth marks so he can't have chewed it . I am however panicking having been advised that Holly is toxic. The consumption and subsequent vomit were over 12 hours ago so it would be a bit late to take remedial action now. I'm watching him like a hawk and will ring the on duty vet if he's sick again, but it's not good for my nerves.

ETA Panic over. The leaf wasn't from a Holly tree. It was from my neighbour's Osmanthus and doesn't appear to be toxic.


----------



## chillminx

@Forester, I had always understood it to be only the holly berries that are toxic, but am glad that it was not a holly leaf after all! 

I can sympathise, (and empathise) with your situation with Dylan more than ever. One of my cats, Rupert, has just been diagnosed with the early signs of Type 2 Diabetes. He is only 9 yrs old and although I understand Type 2 diabetes can strike at any time in an adult cat, I have only had experience of if before in senior cats. So it has come as a big shock to me and I am upset about it. My lovely boy!!

Rupert was diagnosed with IBD when he was about 2 yrs old. The vet diagnosed it on clinical symptoms alone (R was vomiting almost daily, and having intermittent diarrhoea). It took me a year to sort out a diet for him that reduced the vomiting to 'occasional'. I also found by feeding him 6 small meals every 24 hours (including a night feed) it helped reduce the bile vomits to 'rare'.

Everything seemed fine until this summer when we had that recent heatwave. Rupert seemed to suffer in the heat, which he had never done before. He began drinking water (which being on a 100% wet food diet he rarely did) and vomited a couple of times. And he was ravenously hungry. I suspected diabetes type 2 at the time, but after the weather cooled down he seemed back to normal so I put it all down to the heat. But then a week ago he began showing the same signs, ravenously hungry and drinking water. And the weather was quite cool at the time (rainy).

So it was off to the vet for a blood test. Luckily liver & kidney function are fine, WBC is not raised, and RBC count is not low. But his glycemic index was raised. Vet said he is overweight and I must reduce it and get him tested again in 2 weeks. Also am to get a urine sample from him with Katkor.

I said to the vet if I feed R less food he will vomit bile more. The vet had no solution for that - the weight has to come off! (he weighs 6 kg atm, but he is a big built cat with long legs and long body,). Vet wants him down to 5.5 kg. eventually.

I am dreading it frankly. Rupert gets very distressed when he is hungry, and I know his hunger is to do with his food sensitivities and the IBD. Vet said the diabetes is nothing to do with that, it is purely from him eating too much! She was not very sympathetic and I felt like I had been neglectful of my boy's health.

It looks like I'm just going to have to accept that he vomits more often on the new diet regime, than he was doing. I will post an update soon, and perhaps we can support each other.  x


----------



## lorilu

chillminx said:


> I also found by feeding him 6 small meals every 24 hours (including a night feed) it helped reduce the bile vomits to 'rare'


With feeding 6 meals a day, reducing the amount of each meal (Instead of cutting out meals) will greatly lessen the impact of cutting back on his daily intake. Sorry to hear of Rupert's diagnosis.


----------



## Forester

Oh @chillminx, I'm so sorry to hear that Rupert has now been diagnosed with early Type 2 diabetes in addition to his IBD. Quite apart from the sadness of having your lovely boy suffer from these conditions , management of multiple conditions, especially in a multi cat household must be particularly difficult. Rupert is however lucky that YOU are his care giver . I'm am sure that he will fare far better than a cat with similar conditions in the majority of homes.

Not wanting to teach Grandmother to suck eggs but have you considered transitioning Rupert to raw ? I do have a feeling that you may have tried this with him in the past however my reason for suggesting this is because of my experience with Dylan .Before starting the transition Dylan was eating 425g wet food per day but was continually ravenous . These days he eats anywhere from 110g to 150g and is easily satisfied. I am sure that you will be familiar with Elizabeth Hodgkins book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Your-Cat-S...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1566488373&sr=1-1 and will have seen her accounts of diabetes being " reversed" through raw feeding.

I've become a great fan of raw feeding because it has improved Dylan's quality of life so much however I also recognise that it won't suit every cat and that a majority of vets are against it. I was lucky that my vet felt we'd tried everything else, and nothing had worked , so there was little to lose .

I sincerely hope that you will soon identify a way to feed Rupert which will leave him satisfied but also lose weight. Dylan probably eats 7 - 9 meals per day at the moment ( with 2 - 3 of those overnight ) . I've found that allowing *him *to choose when he eats helps to prevent acid build up, though that would probably be more problematic for you when you have other cats to feed.

Oh please do post about Rupert and how you're managing his IBD and diabetes. I've found it does appear true that a trouble shared is a trouble halved. Sometimes pouring it out is enough to help, sometimes helpful suggestions can arise when you're least expecting them .

Thinking of you with both empathy and gratitude.


----------



## chillminx

Thank you so much @Forester and @lorilu for your sympathy and support. It means a lot to me.  x


----------



## oliviarussian

@Forester How is our lovely Dylan doing?


----------



## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> @Forester How is our lovely Dylan doing?


Thanks for your interest @oliviarussian  :Kiss

Please accept my apologies for radio silence . August was so awful I couldn't bring myself to report until the situation was looking brighter.

August yielded 12 vomits. It was his worst month since June 18 ( which was when I discovered he was spitting out his pred. and then hiding it in his run ) . I suspect that increased coat shedding during August didn't help. His August totals for the last 4 years are, in order, 16, 14, 8,12. I do however know ( from experience ) that Dylan would be far worse on a commercial diet so it's a case of best foot forward and on we go. Dylan looks great, and at times behaves like an utter nutter so that , at least ,is heartening.

September has shown a marked improvement in vomiting. Until half an hour ago the current total actually stood at 0.

Diet wise progress is slow but at least we are still moving in the right direction, I think.. Dylan's food/ meds for today comprise pork + calcium carbonate + taurine + cod liver oil + vitamin E + B vits + iron. The level of B vits is slightly above that from the Raw for IBD recipe but much less than required by the Feline Nutrition one. For iron we're at approx 85-90% of the total required to supplement that present in his meat. I've dropped the potassium iodide for now until I either pluck up courage to try it again or decide to try kelp instead. I've been led to believe that the potassium iodide is much less likely to cause issues than the kelp. This is however Dylan, and he ( obviously ) can't read and probably wouldn't obey the rules even if he could!.

Meds wise Dylan has 1mg prednisolone twice daily, 5mg cetirizine hydrochloride ( anti histamine ) and 1.5ml lactulose ( also twice daily )

On the pre/ probiotic front he has 1 capsule Pro 30 max per day as well as 1/4 cap Floraphage.

I've also started to add a little sunflower lecithin to Dylan's food. I'm doing this for 3 reasons : 1) he needs the choline it contains as part of his b vit quota 2) choline improves GI motility and 3) lecithin is an emulsifier so helps to prevent hair balls forming inside his system ( hairballs are a mixture of hair and fat ). Egg yolk lecithin is usually the supplement of choice to prevent hairballs however Dylan doesn't tolerate it.

Dylan weighs 5.49kg


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> 1) he needs the choline it contains as part of his b vit quota


Being plant based, will he actually be able to derive that benefit?


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Being plant based, will he actually be able to derive that benefit?


Good question  As far as I'm aware , yes;or rather I hope so.

Hand, Thatcher, Remillard and Roudebush list oilseeds as a source of Choline in Small Animal Clinical Nutrition ( 4th Edition ) although that doesn't necessarily guarantee its biological appropriateness . Apparently only 1/3 of Phosphatidylcholine consumed is absorbed , the remaining 2/3 is metabolised by the gut bacteria.

Even if Dylan can't metabolise the sunflower derived Phosphatidylcholine it would appear to be helping to emulsify fat and hence reduce hair balling. I'll take any little help I can get !


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> Even if Dylan can't metabolise the sunflower derived Phosphatidylcholine it would appear to be helping to emulsify fat and hence reduce hair balling. I'll take any little help I can get !


Yes, there is that. x


----------



## Forester

Dylan never ceases to confuse me . After the dreadful vomit total during August ( 12 ) the first almost 13 days of September have produced just 1.

What have I changed ? Absolutely nothing. OK I'm adding slightly more sunflower lecithin than I was at the start of the month but that's all, nothing extra, nothing less. Who knows how long this improved record will last however I'm going to enjoy it whilst I can.

I've calculated that the amount of choline provided by the SL , even if it can be utilised , is almost negligible ; however the emulsification ( is that a word? ) it contributes appears to be paying off., at least for now.


----------



## TriTri

Forester said:


> Dylan never ceases to confuse me . After the dreadful vomit total during August ( 12 ) the first almost 13 days of September have produced just 1.
> 
> What have I changed ? Absolutely nothing. OK I'm adding slightly more sunflower lecithin than I was at the start of the month but that's all, nothing extra, nothing less. Who knows how long this improved record will last however I'm going to enjoy it whilst I can.
> 
> I've calculated that the amount of choline provided by the SL , even if it can be utilised , is almost negligible ; however the emulsification ( is that a word? ) it contributes appears to be paying off., at least for now.


That's fantastic. Well done you! I was just thinking about you yesterday and how much effort you put in. That's amazing.


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## chillminx

Excellent news @Forester.


----------



## Forester

TriTri said:


> That's fantastic. Well done you! I was just thinking about you yesterday and how much effort you put in. That's amazing.





chillminx said:


> Excellent news @Forester.


Thank you both . The confusing thing is I haven't changed anything since last month . My theory is that August's terrible time was partly due to increased shedding and that the accumulation of matted hair has now been dispersed.

Spells like this keep me motivated however there isn't really any choice. Dylan was declining rapidly when fed commercial wet food but has blossomed since changing to raw.

Vit/mineral deficiencies do worry me every waking moment, though my vet doesn't seem at all concerned about them. I suppose he's just seeing a cat who was deteriorating and had a pretty miserable prognosis transformed into a feline tearaway with the most amazing soft shiny coat.


----------



## lorilu

Forester said:


> The confusing thing is I haven't changed anything since last month


It's jsut the nature of the beast dearest friend. xx


----------



## Forester

The monthly vomit total now stands at 3 however I'm making progress towards dietary completeness. Dylan is now eating his full complement of B Vits ( Raw for IBD recipe) and iron. 

My next move ( yes, it does feel like a chess game ) is to try him with potassium iodide yet again.


----------



## Forester

When Dylan's Specialist from Langford described his case as extremely complicated, confusing and challenging ( and that was before her medication suggestions failed to bring about any improvement ) she made an understatement. Dylan has just followed a dreadful August by an incredible September. He managed 4 successive 1 vomit weeks ( previously unknown ) with his lowest monthly vomit total since my current records started in Jan 15. I did have records kept throughout 2014 but they were put away for safe keeping , and can't be found.

Yes I know the 2 months should really be averaged out however I can't help feeling that we've had some sort of breakthrough. There's been virtually no change in what I'm feeding however I think the sunflower lecithin may be the catalyst for the change.

I have also changed the temperature of what I'm feeding , although that was only about 2-3 weeks ago. Dylan was increasingly reluctant to eat his meat straight from the fridge so I've been warming it slightly inside a plastic bag dipped in very hot water. I realise that heating raw food risks allowing bacteria to multiply rapidly so I've been discarding anything not eaten within 5 minutes of serving. Dylan is definitely eating the slightly warmed food with much more enthusiasm than he was the chilled.

I can feel you wondering why I haven't tried warming Dylan's food in the past. I have , numerous times , and it made no difference , however this time it feels different somehow. By the way, I don't feed bone so I'm not taking the risk of feeding bone which has partially cooked. I would never do that.

There is renewed hope in the Forester household.


----------



## lorilu

Thanks for the happy update! I always warm their raw meals. I put the dish of food in another saucer of hot water and stir it around, refreshing the hot until the food is warm to the touch (using the back of my finger to test)


----------



## Forester

lorilu said:


> Thanks for the happy update! I always warm their raw meals. I put the dish of food in another saucer of hot water and stir it around, refreshing the hot until the food is warm to the touch (using the back of my finger to test)


We're always keen to give a happy update, when appropriate.

Meal times have become extremely lively as Dylan objects to having to wait for the food to be warmed. When he wants food he wants it NOW!!!!!.

He has a past record of vomiting whenever his access to food is delayed . Years ago I bought him a feeder which slowed down his eating as it was thought he might be eating too quickly. He was sick every time it was used.

I'm currently studying individual egg poachers on Amazon in the hope that might be the quickest method of achieving the desired effect.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I am beyond delighted to hear how brilliantly Dylan is doing @Forester - it is wonderful. Egg poacher as in the old style ones with four compartments over boiling water underneath, or the new fangled single ones with arms that dangle? Good idea, I love how your mind works 

Keep it up Dylan, keep it up!


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## chillminx

That's excellent news @Forester.  Well done, and well done Dylan.  xx


----------



## Forester

Mrs Funkin said:


> I am beyond delighted to hear how brilliantly Dylan is doing @Forester - it is wonderful. Egg poacher as in the old style ones with four compartments over boiling water underneath, or the new fangled single ones with arms that dangle? Good idea, I love how your mind works
> 
> Keep it up Dylan, keep it up!





chillminx said:


> That's excellent news @Forester.  Well done, and well done Dylan.  xx


Thank you both  I'm trying to keep my optimism under control. I know only too well the rollercoaster which goes hand in hand with IBD. I have to take into account that September's much improved performance follows August's complete disaster. . . . .and there was barely any difference in what I was feeding/ doing . If past experiences are repeated we might well be in for several more bad months , just to even things out. Dylan and I have had more false dawn's than cooked breakfasts !. Let's just describe me as being " cautiously optimistic ".

As for the egg poacher , I'm thinking either individual old fashioned saucepan type, individual one which dangles, or silicone dish type , maybe even something to be used a la Bain Marie. I don't care what I get so long as it does the job, and doesn't transfer chemicals into Dylan's food.

I forgot to mention that I'm now increasing Dylan's potassium iodide. I had been concerned that it might taste bitter and have triggered previous inappetence however it seems to taste OK.( I've not tasted it when mixed into raw cat food though ! )

Dylan's going to be due a six month meds check pretty soon. I can't wait to hear what my vet says about him. I'm pleased to report that to my untrained eyes , he looks absolutely fabulous!!!!!


----------



## ebonycat

Yay well done & well done Dylan, good boy Dylan.
Such a wonderful update x


----------



## SbanR

Well done Dylan. Fabulous update


----------



## Forester

ebonycat said:


> Yay well done & well done Dylan, good boy Dylan.
> Such a wonderful update x


 Thank you @ebonycat. 

It is an absolute joy to see my lovely lad going through a good spell. He's had a lot to put up with ,poor boy.


----------



## Forester

SbanR said:


> Well done Dylan. Fabulous update


 Thank you ! .


----------



## urbantigers

Sorry I'm out of touch with Dylan's progress. I'm really pleased that he's going through a good spell


----------



## Forester

urbantigers said:


> Sorry I'm out of touch with Dylan's progress. I'm really pleased that he's going through a good spell


Thank you , @urbantigers . I really appreciate you reading this and offering your good wishes. 

I feel guilty that I post here and take support from anyone who replies, yet rarely contribute to other threads. I'd like to think that Dylan will continue to do well so I can try to reciprocate.the support I've received from others.


----------



## oliviarussian

How is our lovely Dylan at the moment?


----------



## Forester

oliviarussian said:


> How is our lovely Dylan at the moment?


Not particularly well right now I'm afraid. He's refusing to eat raw and vomiting almost daily. I do have a theory that he's picking up on my stress levels which are currently up in the stratosphere.

Thanks for asking, and for showing that a Secret Santa is for life I'll send you a p m when I get the chance. xx


----------



## chillminx

@Forester - oh no! I'm so sorry to hear this news Sylv. I noticed you'd not been around much and hoped it was just because you were busy ( in a good way).

Sending lots of healing thoughts to dear Dylan and love to you. xx


----------



## Forester

chillminx said:


> @Forester - oh no! I'm so sorry to hear this news Sylv. I noticed you'd not been around much and hoped it was just because you were busy ( in a good way).
> 
> Sending lots of healing thoughts to dear Dylan and love to you. xx


Thank you, @chillminx , my coping mechanism during times of stress is to keep busy and I've been taking it to a new level. Hopefully things will improve soon and I'll feel able to participate fully in the forum again.xx


----------



## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> Not particularly well right now I'm afraid. He's refusing to eat raw and vomiting almost daily. I do have a theory that he's picking up on my stress levels which are currently up in the stratosphere.
> 
> Thanks for asking, and for showing that a Secret Santa is for life I'll send you a p m when I get the chance. xx


Sorry to hear that Sylv


----------



## Pepperpots

I’m so sorry. Hope things improve for you soon. Did the wet food work, or not so much?if you ever need a rant, please feel free to dm me.


----------



## Forester

Pepperpots said:


> I'm so sorry. Hope things improve for you soon. Did the wet food work, or not so much?if you ever need a rant, please feel free to dm me.


Thanks..The wet food has worked in so far as Dylan's eating it . ( He now won't eat raw ). He will only eat the first 2/3 of a 200g CFF bio pork can though . He much prefers pouches ( at approx £1.50 per pouch x 4 per day ! ) Never mind, he's worth it without any hesitation. It's proving difficult to get hold of though - I've only just received my entire Zoo bio order placed 8/1/20.

I have little doubt Dylan's vomiting would be better back on raw but what can I do? He's decided it's poison. I'm hoping that by giving him a rest from the raw for a while he will redevelop his appetite for it .

I'm expecting a new addition to the Forester family next week . The kitten is , I'm led to believe, already a fan of raw food. With a bit of luck offering raw pork as a treat to the kitten might make Dylan think he's missing out by not eating it.


----------



## oliviarussian

Forester said:


> I'm expecting a new addition to the Forester family next week . The kitten is , I'm led to believe, already a fan of raw food. With a bit of luck offering raw pork as a treat to the kitten might make Dylan think he's missing out by not eating it.


Very excited for you!


----------



## chillminx

@Forester - "Liking" your post for the latest news about the kitten (so exciting!! )

But very sorry to hear about Dylan refusing raw completely now. 3 of mine prefer pouches to tinned food even though I try and persuade them it's the same recipe in different packaging, LOL.


----------



## Forester

I’m not around on the forum these days but wanted to update this thread. My reason for doing so - I’ve finally found not one, but 2 ways to make Dylan’s raw diet complete!!!!!!!!!!! 

My first discovery, back in June , was a completer, available from the USA called BalanceIt. ( Carnivore Blend ). It was developed by nutritionists at UC Davis, California, and contains only synthetic ingredients. It is very expensive. A tub containing 62 days worth cost me approximately £100 by the time it arrived in the U.K.

Sadly the product does not seem particularly palatable to most cats. Dylan accepted , and tolerated the BalanceIt initially; however after less than half the tub he decided it was the work of the devil!

That Dylan coped relatively well with the BalanceIt got me thinking. If he could tolerate this synthetic supplement might it be worth trying him with Felini Complete again? I’d tried to introduce Felini back in 2015 and it was an epic fail, projectile vomiting with just 1/8 the quantity required, but it was worth a try.

Eureka!!!!! The solution - sort of. With Felini added to pork Dylan is currently vomiting approximately 3 times each week. It’s not brilliant but it’s better than he is when fed on the organic pork pouches.

I found my solution to the transition eventually but sadly not until Dylan had deteriorated somewhat. He still looks good, although nowadays is somewhat overweight, but his IBD has clearly progressed. We’ve recently been through another phase where he’s needed a long course of Omeprazole to prevent ulceration.

Anyway, before ending this “diary” I’d like to thank everyone who’s followed our journey, and provided help and support to me. I would never have reached my goal without you all.

xx


----------



## TriTri

Forester said:


> I'm not around on the forum these days but wanted to update this thread. My reason for doing so - I've finally found not one, but 2 ways to make Dylan's raw diet complete!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> My first discovery, back in June , was a completer, available from the USA called BalanceIt. ( Carnivore Blend ). It was developed by nutritionists at UC Davis, California, and contains only synthetic ingredients. It is very expensive. A tub containing 62 days worth cost me approximately £100 by the time it arrived in the U.K.
> 
> Sadly the product does not seem particularly palatable to most cats. Dylan accepted , and tolerated the BalanceIt initially; however after less than half the tub he decided it was the work of the devil!
> 
> That Dylan coped relatively well with the BalanceIt got me thinking. If he could tolerate this synthetic supplement might it be worth trying him with Felini Complete again? I'd tried to introduce Felini back in 2015 and it was an epic fail, projectile vomiting with just 1/8 the quantity required, but it was worth a try.
> 
> Eureka!!!!! The solution - sort of. With Felini added to pork Dylan is currently vomiting approximately 3 times each week. It's not brilliant but it's better than he is when fed on the organic pork pouches.
> 
> I found my solution to the transition eventually but sadly not until Dylan had deteriorated somewhat. He still looks good, although nowadays is somewhat overweight, but his IBD has clearly progressed. We've recently been through another phase where he's needed a long course of Omeprazole to prevent ulceration.
> 
> Anyway, before ending this "diary" I'd like to thank everyone who's followed our journey, and provided help and support to me. I would never have reached my goal without you all.
> 
> xx


It is lovely to hear from you @Forester 
Thank you for sharing that with us & with anyone else that Google's in despair! 
Merry Christmas to you and your furry duo.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh @Forester I am so glad to hear this  what wonderful news for Dylan (and you of course).

What commitment you have shown to your boy, it's incredible. You have never given up on him and your quest to do the absolute best for him is inspiring.

Merry Christmas to you, Dylan and Solomon. I wish you a peaceful festive season and I hope that 2021 brings you back a little more often to the forums.

Sending much love from the seaside and a big kiss for you from Oscar xxxx


----------



## Forester

TriTri said:


> It is lovely to hear from you @Forester
> Thank you for sharing that with us & with anyone else that Google's in despair!
> Merry Christmas to you and your furry duo.


Thank you @TriTri . Your moral support has helped keep me going with this transition.

It's all come too late to help Dylan , I fear; but I did want to give hope to anyone else wanting to transition a cat with IBD to a raw diet which is complete. Just because a cat does not cope with a food at one time in their life does not mean that they never will.

Thinking about it, in the past had Dylan vomited 3 times weekly with a food I'd have said he could not cope with it. Now I'm just grateful it's only those 3 times. It does help , because on canned food he vomits much more.



Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @Forester I am so glad to hear this  what wonderful news for Dylan (and you of course).
> 
> What commitment you have shown to your boy, it's incredible. You have never given up on him and your quest to do the absolute best for him is inspiring.
> 
> Merry Christmas to you, Dylan and Solomon. I wish you a peaceful festive season and I hope that 2021 brings you back a little more often to the forums.
> 
> Sending much love from the seaside and a big kiss for you from Oscar xxxx


Thanks @Mrs Funkin. I will always be deeply indebted to you for all that you've done to keep me going through this.:Kiss :Angelic.
I think I'm unlikely to be around the forum much. The rollercoaster that is the life of someone with an IBD cat no longer has any highs to counteract the lows . Seven years of doing my best to help Dylan has taken its toll. Discussion of cat food, appetite levels, and feline digestive problems has become traumatic for me so I distance myself from it as much as I can.

Rest assured, I will never, ever give up trying to help Dylan and to give him the best quality of life I can. I will however try to recognise when that quality is not at an acceptable level.

My 2 boys and I also wish you @Mrs Funkin , and all forum members, a very merry Christmas and a 2021 which is healthy and when life can be enjoyed again.


----------



## chillminx

@Forester - lovely to hear from you! I am so glad you have been able to sort out Dylan's supplements for him.  Excellent that he can now tolerate Felini Complete better than before. As you say, all the ingredients are synthetic.

Sadly, my own cat with severe food allergies (who is on a home cooked meat diet, using novel proteins and no cat food) has not managed to tolerate Felini Complete. I tried various other makes of supplement but all resulted in her itchiness returning after a day or so. My solution has been to add each vitamin and mineral separately, which I recall is what you did for Dylan at one point 

It is still very much a work in progress however. But wonderful to see that her fur is growing back from where she had pulled it out from over grooming. And great she is no longer scratching constantly. Her coat now looks wonderful , thick, shiny and soft.

Very best wishes to you, Dylan and Solly, for Christmas and the New Year. Here's hoping 2021 is a better year than 2020 has been.


----------



## Pepperpots

Sending all my love to you and Dylan.


----------



## oliviarussian

Much love from me and Rosso xx


----------



## TriTri

Forester said:


> I'm not around on the forum these days but wanted to update this thread. My reason for doing so - I've finally found not one, but 2 ways to make Dylan's raw diet complete!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> My first discovery, back in June , was a completer, available from the USA called BalanceIt. ( Carnivore Blend ). It was developed by nutritionists at UC Davis, California, and contains only synthetic ingredients. It is very expensive. A tub containing 62 days worth cost me approximately £100 by the time it arrived in the U.K.
> 
> Sadly the product does not seem particularly palatable to most cats. Dylan accepted , and tolerated the BalanceIt initially; however after less than half the tub he decided it was the work of the devil!
> 
> That Dylan coped relatively well with the BalanceIt got me thinking. If he could tolerate this synthetic supplement might it be worth trying him with Felini Complete again? I'd tried to introduce Felini back in 2015 and it was an epic fail, projectile vomiting with just 1/8 the quantity required, but it was worth a try.
> 
> Eureka!!!!! The solution - sort of. With Felini added to pork Dylan is currently vomiting approximately 3 times each week. It's not brilliant but it's better than he is when fed on the organic pork pouches.
> 
> I found my solution to the transition eventually but sadly not until Dylan had deteriorated somewhat. He still looks good, although nowadays is somewhat overweight, but his IBD has clearly progressed. We've recently been through another phase where he's needed a long course of Omeprazole to prevent ulceration.
> 
> Anyway, before ending this "diary" I'd like to thank everyone who's followed our journey, and provided help and support to me. I would never have reached my goal without you all.
> 
> xx


Well done @Forester. Lots of kisses to Dylan & Solly xx


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