# Collie Bares Teeth, but is it aggression?



## crazycollie (Dec 14, 2009)

Rex is now 6.5 months, non agressive submissive and very loving. I have have had no real problems thus far and he's following commands well. The wife has concerns that every so often when she approaches his lips lift although his head is low and tail is wagging there is no growling and no snapping, this happens when he's had a lie down and relaxed in the main. Is this aggression or or an uncontrolable smile?


----------



## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

is this when hes in a plyful mood?

ive seen what you describe turn into a snap (trying it on as hes only 6-5 months) but i dont know the answer...... so wait for someone more knowledgeable to come along


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

from the rest of the body-lang (head down, tail wagging) and the fact that he is apparently a soft-dog, easily intimidated, i would bet that this is an ingratiating grin, which is rooted in fear/anxiety. 
soft-dogs tend to be on the anxious side, and a fear-grimace in a chimp is what many ppl mistake for a smile; in his case, it sounds as tho he is soliciting attention, and apologizing for interrupting even before he interrupts... thats what the anxious-grin is about.

2 Qs: 
* is the wagging wide + low? tail no higher than butt, and probably lower? 
* are his EARS also lowered, pressed to his head? 
* are his eyes soft + slightly squinted?

if the answers are all Yes - 
then U have a soft-dog who is soliciting attn, and uncertain about his reception; he is a bit nervous about coming over/interrupting, and the grin is an involuntary indicator of his anxiety, but ALSO a signal of non-aggro intention. either his lips will be pulled straight-back in a line, or the corners of the mouth will lift slightly; he may or may not lift the upper-lip at the front, to show his incisors (row of tiny center-teeth).

* pick-up a good photo-heavy BOOK or DVD on dog body-language: * 
Aloff, Handleman, or Rugaas. U will need it - spooky/anxious dogs can be overwhelmed more easily by ppl, 
stimuli, or circumstances. U want to KNOW what he is saying, about his emotional state + his intentions.

socialization: 
to prevent him becoming a fear-biter, make sure he has many, many *happy* short exposures to different ages/kinds of ppl; to many settings; and to handling or approach by strangers. * Do not over-face him - let him meet THEM, vs them go TO him. *
ask his new-acquaintances to sit, squat, or turn side-on invitingly (rather than Stand, Oppose him directly frontally, and be head-up/shoulders back). 
also ask them not to STARE at him, just glance + smile, then look-away; this will help him get up the nerve to come over + sniff, but they should *offer a hand to sniff* before touching. 
initial contact should always be **below chin-level, where he can SEE their approaching hand** - not above his head, not behind his head - his chest can be rubbed, his lower neck stroked, his chin rubbed like a cats - if he rolls over to show his tummy, squatting to pet his tummy is excellent for relaxing him. 
(but until he relaxes with this person, they are NOT patting his head, the back of his neck, his shoulders...)

Q - 
 how is he at the vets? 
can they handle him * without * having him freeze, sink to the floor or table, shake, tuck tail to belly, or otherwise look very 
scared / distressed? if he is anxious but copes, make many short cookie-visits to the vets office; go in, get him weighed, give the staff FAMILIAR treats to drop on the floor for him; chat with the staff, let HIM approach THEM... make the waiting-room familiar + calm, by sitting there + reading a mag before departing.

 if he Cannot be handled without major stress, 
(yelps, pees, cringes, flinches, shakes, flees, tail clamped-under, ears flat, snaps...) than U will need a professional 
to help with this - a pos-R trainer with experience in shy dogs, or a vet-behaviorist or CAAB.

 if he is too spooked to approach any stranger, 
even if they squat side on without eye contact + make kissy noises, it is time NOW to start B-Mod to build his confidence! 
many BCs + other herding-breeds have a common tendency to throw over-anxious, timid pups; early intervention can save them from a life of constant tension, and possible fear-biting.

hoping he is merely a soft dog who loves cuddles, 
--- terry


----------



## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

If as Terry has said his ears are right back, body low, eyes slanted etc. etc., then it is almost certainly what we used to call 'submissive grinning'. Our BC used to do this to and over time, I put it to a command and got it on cue.

However, I digress....Our Collie was very unsure when we first had him, several homes before we obtained him at 9 months, he was on the Put to sleep list at the RSPCA, as he had bitten the receptionist on arrival. They let a friend have him as she wanted him to work sheep and lived in the middle of nowhere, when she broke her leg, I took him on to do some much needed training and socliasation, so he didn't miss out and he ended up staying! I wondered if she actually engineered this!).

We had lots of peeing when people came in, anxiousness and basically lack of confidence, so we boosted this as much as we could.

Everything that Terry said is so true. Practically we found the following helped too.

Obedience and agility, as he could get rewarded for this and boost his confidence, it is of course always the same commands for the same action, thus he knew what was coming. 

Good routines at home, so he felt confident in his surroundings. 

Being confident when we were out and about by being in control and rewarding him lots and lots. I even went to the extent of letting him win games - tug etc., which I never normally do with my dogs, but he had so low self esteem, I only had to do a heavy sigh, or tut and he would hit the deck!

Make sure he has good socilisation, but don't overface him, let him back off if he needs to, ask people to ignore him and let him approach them.

Our dog never really grew out of his 'smiling', but he did bite a few more times, although he had bite inhibition (i.e. he didn't make much contact), the 'snap' it made sounded very impressive! It was always people who pushed him around, one guy grabbed his nose and rubbed it very hard! (who would do that do a dog they didn't know anyway?), another was someone who went under the desk (where the dog was sleeping) and put their hand out over his head and he had them (cost a bottle of whiskey).

However, he was loving, gentle with us and a great character, who lived to the ripe old age of 15 without causing us many worries!

Kate


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

My Chihuahua does this when I take her harness off. Describes the body language perfectly!
Mind you, she has such a big underbite she pretty much spends all day grinning at you!LOL


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I have a smiling collie too!!!!!


----------



## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

yep another 'smiling' collie here!

Maggie doesnt do it as much now, but used to do it loads when she was little when she met someone new or when she saw my sister or mum and dad who she REALLY likes but doesnt see that much.


----------



## mandasdad (Dec 4, 2009)

My father in law has a collie that always bares her teeth when she greets someone which is really peculiar because her tail is wagging at the same time. She is a timid dog and has never threatened to bite anybody.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #8 - mandasdad

hey, dasda! :--) 
that is a submissive-grin - 
the corners of the mouth way back in a straight-line or the very-corner very slightly lifted.

chimps do that same behavior - when they are terrified, they show this manic grin with lots of teeth; 
in CHIMPS it is actually a threat, * *back off and lemme alone! U are scaring the $%#@ out of me!...* * 
in dogs it is simply anxious + non-threatening. 
cheers, 
--- terry


----------



## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

CHEESE!
Taken when young though he still does it - even to himself - think hes laughing at me sometimes tbh


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Ooo he looks like Jodie Marsh!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

that looks so funny... 
hes pulling his upper-lip above his incisors So Hard, he has bent his nose-leather 
up + back, like a pigs snout, :lol: what a face!  
--- terry


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> like a pigs snout,


Yeah that's why it reminded me of Jodie Marsh


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Field Trip Earth: Kendall the Chimp

2nd image down, on the right...


----------



## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> Field Trip Earth: Kendall the Chimp
> 
> 2nd image down, on the right...


Looks like my OH!!! lol


----------



## crazycollie (Dec 14, 2009)

Wow, thanks for all your posts. I honestly think its submissive grinning. He is soft as, we have a snappy Yorkie who snaps at his ears and Rex doesn't bat an eyelid, he grinned at me when I came home from work early and again as I headed for his lead cupboard, and after what K8t said we have had a go at getting him to do it on command which he did once or twice. I have 3 young girls who he loves and allows them to maul him and love him to death, and he loves to play with random dogs down at the forest we walk through, we will still keep an eye on him but think we're ok


----------



## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Yeah, sounds like submissive. We used to say 'Smile' to our dog and he would do it, especially when we came home - same as you.

However, this isn't a 'smile'. You can distinctly see the difference, instead of eyes slanted and lips showing front teeth, the lips are pulledright back and eyes wide, head is up, not dipped and although the ears are back, they are not pulled back against the head .... very different!









Click to enlarge!!!

Kate


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> _ ...this isn't a 'smile'. _


holy H***, i should say not! 

* facial tension wrinkles 
* hard eyes 
* tongue is being retracted (humped-up inside mouth, to avoid biting it when the dog bites... which this dog is very likely about to do...) 
* ears are pinched to skull 
* upper-lip above incisors is so tight, gums are everted 
* COMMISSURE is FORWARD - corners of mouth make a C shape! 
ALWAYS a sign of aggression -

a fearful dog or one showing a submissive grin has the corners of the mouth way back, often level with the eyes above - 
they may be straight or lift slightly, but they make a slit-like shape - 
* Not a C-shape! *

fearful dogs who are really frightened will bite! much-more readily + far more likely than a confident dog, so always take care not to block, corner or restrain them past their tolerance, if U have not ** muzzled ** them as a precaution. 
so a spooky dog should be pre-conditioned to wear a muzzle happily, and should practice wearing it under happy, normal circs... so that the muzzle itself is not a sign that things are about to go to perdition. 
all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

That photo is of my old collie, Flashman - sadly gone now.

Several homes before he was 9 months old, when we got him he was a 'screwed up dog', but ended up living to a good old age without too many incidents - see my previous posting #4.

This is the response on picking up his feet!!! When we first had him, he wouldn't let me go near them, but with a lot of work, I could touch them without him trying to bite me, but he would pull this face.... His tongue would come in and out like a snake. Occassionally he would snap at the air, but not at us. 

When not messing with his feet, he was a great loving gentle dog a bit of a loon, who gained confidence over the years and was excellent at agility.

Naturally, when I had my daughter he was a bit of a worry and I was always careful, but he never ever reacted to her, generally a very submissive, wimpy dog - would you believe it? and a good example of how a sumissive dog can change very quickly.

Kate

Miss you Flashy dog x


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re k8t -
> _ ...a good example of how a submissive dog can change very quickly. _


yes, indeedy! :WoW: 
an excellent illustration of how intense * body-guarding * can become in a fearful or soft dog - 
this is often *why!* vets + vet-techs are bitten, they see a fearful dog cower, and just assume they are soft - not SCARED brainless - and barge on in, + the spooky-dog panics + reacts with defensive-aggro... when there is No Real threat.

i have seen that snake-face with the in-and-out tongue several times in my life... it was never a happy sight, and always an animal under severe stress.  and stress is ALWAYS about the perception of the DOG - it is never about Our Interpretation of what the dog *should* think or feel. 
that U think it is no big deal is utterly immaterial - _ the dogs perception of the event is everything. _

its a shame he had a terrible start in life, but good that Flash had many years of happiness afterward! :thumbup: 
all my best, 
--- terry


----------

