# help/advice with my bunnies 'bum problem'



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

hi sorry for long post but its a long storey.

just after some advice regarding my female rabbit. i have had her for a couple of years, when i got her from the rescue they told me that her stomach could be sensitive.

over the years she has sometimes had what i call 'runny bum' but it has only been occasionally and not that often.

over the last 2 months this has got worse. we havent changed her diet in any way or anything. she has a small amount of pellets twice a day, unlimited hay and a night time some fresh veg (cabbage, carrot, broccoli and parsley)

during the night she passes a brown liquid which ends up all over her back end and belly. i can see patches of it on the laminate. this doesnt happen every day, probably every other day or so.

she does normal poos all the time, so its not diarrhoea. its a liquid that comes out. i am having to bath her bum every few days which she doesnt really like.

i spoke to the vets about a month ago and they told me to cut out her veg, which i did. this didnt make any difference. so i spoke to the vets again and they advised to get some 'pro fibre'. she will not eat this unless its coated on some banana. i took her to the vets a few days later and the vet advised to stick with the pro fibre as well as a course of wormer. she also said she could go back on her veg and it hasnt made it better or worse.

she doesnt like the pro fibre that much and wont eat it in enough quantity for it to take any effect.

any advise please??


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

could you possiably get a picture of the suspect poo?

best advise i can give based on what you have said so far would be to cut out both veggies and pellets, keep her on a hay only diet for about 5-10 days and see if that makes a difference to her bum
after that you can slowly start to add pellets back, and then veg

what pellets do you feed her on?


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> could you possiably get a picture of the suspect poo?
> 
> best advise i can give based on what you have said so far would be to cut out both veggies and pellets, keep her on a hay only diet for about 5-10 days and see if that makes a difference to her bum
> after that you can slowly start to add pellets back, and then veg
> ...


its a brown liquid consistency of water??

she has always had the same diet with no real problems, but this has got worse over the last few months for no reason.

just a small amount of excel twice a day. i have already cut out veg for over a week and it made no difference 

my other rabbit is fine btw


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

that will be why then, some rabbits just do not do well on excel, i would recommend swapping to A+P or science select 

put her onto hay only as i said above, and then slowly introduce the new pellets

theres no jelly like substance in the poo at all is there?


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> that will be why then, some rabbits just do not do well on excel, i would recommend swapping to A+P or science select
> 
> put her onto hay only as i said above, and then slowly introduce the new pellets
> 
> theres no jelly like substance in the poo at all is there?


no its just like water


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

i would look to blame the excel then


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> i would look to blame the excel then


ok i will swap on to science select then.

i just wondered why this hasnt effected her that much until now, she has been on excel for over 2 years since ive had her


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

how many buns have you got? may be more cost effective to swap to A+P
you can get a 20KG sack for around £10 from argo in penistone


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> how many buns have you got? may be more cost effective to swap to A+P
> you can get a 20KG sack for around £10 from argo in penistone


ive got 2, ill go to the pet shop in crookes and see what they have. penistone's a bit far from me but thanks for the info!


----------



## Dynamitez (Jun 21, 2012)

Why do people always try to blame Excel? Burgess Excel is a pretty good. Perhaps in the past, the brand may have made the mistake of adding extra rubbish to the ingredients, but i would imagine that's changed. It's veterinary recommended, so what's the problem? All rabbits are different, just like humans, we may take better to different foods and we may drop waste slightly different to others.


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

its a fact excel is known to cause SOME (not all) buns tummy problems, it also contains ANIMAL DERIVATIVES and rabbits are strict omnivorous, the crude fibre is also only 19% a+p and science select are both 23%
the beneficial fibre is a load of bull crap marketing ploy 

i dont care what food vets recommend, vets are vets not nutritionists, the only diet training they receive is from the companies who pay them to recommend their foods


----------



## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

I never knew that it contained animal derivatives?? Yuk. Not that I use it


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

my vet is known as the best in sheffield and specialises in small animals. they didnt mentioned anything about the brand of pellets i use?

my other bun has been on excel for over 3 years with no problems and ivy my female has been on it since i got her. 

i have now bought some science select and mixed a little bit in with the excel and ivy has eaten all of it tonight.

hopefully this will help with her tummy and i will try and get some more of the pro fibre down her


----------



## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Lil Miss said:


> its a fact excel is known to cause SOME (not all) buns tummy problems, it also contains ANIMAL DERIVATIVES and rabbits are strict omnivorous, the crude fibre is also only 19% a+p and science select are both 23%
> the beneficial fibre is a load of bull crap marketing ploy
> 
> i dont care what food vets recommend, vets are vets not nutritionists, the only diet training they receive is from the companies who pay them to recommend their foods


It contains WHAT?!?!!? Animal derivatives in rabbit food?! Is this true? Cos that's what mine eat


----------



## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

What type of hay do you have her on? is she on the grass during the day? 

I would try fiber first my guys seem to like it its 30% fiber most pampered pets sell it. She would only need a stick or 2 mind and you could feed your other rabbit separately to ensure she wasnt bullying food off the other bunny. 

I would cut out all veg, worm her for 28 days and your other bunny, put some probiotic like avipro in their water to improve her gut flora, feed her a well aged coarse hay at least a year old and preferably first cut hay as its more nutritious. 

I would also put up some fly netting until the problem goes as even the night temperatures can be hot enough for eggs to turn in to maggots pretty quick.


----------



## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

daisyboo said:


> my vet is known as the best in sheffield and specialises in small animals. they didnt mentioned anything about the brand of pellets i use?
> 
> my other bun has been on excel for over 3 years with no problems and ivy my female has been on it since i got her.
> 
> ...


Buns can be on Excel forever with no issues, mine were on it for a long time with no problems. I dont see any real problem with feeding it if you want to and its not causing problems. That said, it is known to cause issues with some bunnys and runny poo's so if a bunny has those symptoms and nothing else seems to be the cause, Excel would be the next thing to look at as potentially causing it.
It won't hurt either, to go to a pellet with more fibre in it.

I think at this point she would be on a hay and water only diet (for a few weeks if need be), to see if that gets her sorted and then introduce a pellet, then the veg again, each step of the way, giving her tummy time to react so you know what it is thats causing it.

*Heidi*


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

daisyboo said:


> my vet is known as the best in sheffield and specialises in small animals. they didnt mentioned anything about the brand of pellets i use?
> 
> my other bun has been on excel for over 3 years with no problems and ivy my female has been on it since i got her.
> 
> ...


which vets?

as i said your best popping her onto hay only for a few days then slowly introduce the food its the best way to change over, and should also clear the runs up in just a coule of day


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> which vets?
> 
> as i said your best popping her onto hay only for a few days then slowly introduce the food its the best way to change over, and should also clear the runs up in just a coule of day


peak in woodeats


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

emzybabe said:


> What type of hay do you have her on? is she on the grass during the day?
> 
> I would try fiber first my guys seem to like it its 30% fiber most pampered pets sell it. She would only need a stick or 2 mind and you could feed your other rabbit separately to ensure she wasnt bullying food off the other bunny.
> 
> ...


they are house rabbits so not on grass at all. i get farm hay from the pet shop. i live in the city so not many options for hay except farm hay or excel/bagged up stuff from pah which they dont like.

i dont need to worry to much about fly strike with them being inside. although i am checking her often and i clean out their litter tray every day.

i have wormed them both already. not had any 'mess' for a couple of days so hopefully something i have done is working


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

iv actually never heard of them :lol:


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

theres actually plenty of choices for hay, we live in one of the greenest cities, although its easier for me living in the sticks haha
but even if you could find a farmer to sell you hay bales, i imagine storage would be an issue as the houses in the city center arent that big if you live in the city center area :lol:


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> theres actually plenty of choices for hay, we live in one of the greenest cities, although its easier for me living in the sticks haha
> but even if you could find a farmer to sell you hay bales, i imagine storage would be an issue as the houses in the city center arent that big if you live in the city center area :lol:


i live in an apartment at the moment so cant keep bales.

i am in the process of buying a house so i am moving soon to s6, do you know anywhere in s6 that i could get good hay from? i dont even know where my nearest farm is.


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

which area is s6? im useless with post code areas :lol:


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> which area is s6? im useless with post code areas :lol:


hillsborough


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

hmm, i get my hay from a farmer in penistone, but that may be too far for you still i THINK mike gets the hay for the horses from a farmer in wortley which is a bit nearer.... ill ask him if i get a chance :lol:


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> hmm, i get my hay from a farmer in penistone, but that may be too far for you still i THINK mike gets the hay for the horses from a farmer in wortley which is a bit nearer.... ill ask him if i get a chance :lol:


thanks much appreciated


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

just an update on ivy, she is no better at all. have been back and forth to the vets, she has had some avipro for her water and anti biotics which hasnt done anything.

went back to the vets on friday and they sedated her to take blood and have a good look at her. just waiting for the blood test results.

she is still on science selective which hasnt made a difference. i also got some good quality hay from the hay experts.

nothing has made the slightest bit of difference and im now getting really worried as i cant see an end to this and we keep having to bathe her which she hates.


----------



## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

Try and keep positive, hope the bloods shed some light onto what's going on.


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lopside said:


> Try and keep positive, hope the bloods shed some light onto what's going on.


its just a nightmare as she seems to be getting worse and the vets dont know what is wrong with her.

we are going on holiday and im worried about leaving her, its really getting me down


----------



## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

daisyboo said:


> just an update on ivy, she is no better at all. have been back and forth to the vets, she has had some avipro for her water and anti biotics which hasnt done anything.
> 
> went back to the vets on friday and they sedated her to take blood and have a good look at her. just waiting for the blood test results.
> 
> ...


Oh no 

Only thing I can suggest to try and get to the bottom of it all is to gradually wean out any other food apart from hay and dried herbs, leave her on this for a few days to see if it sorts out her bottom. If she clears up you can gradually reintroduce pellets first and then a small amount of veg only adding one thing at a time, that way you should be able to pinpoint what might be causing her gut problems.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Your poor poor bun.

Really, i think you need a rabbit savvy vets advice on this as her problem sounds quite extreme. However, i am hoping that the following might help. 

I am wondering if there is anything around that is stressing her out? - perhaps cat, dog - just a thought - as this could upset her tum to some extent.

Is it just her caecotrophs that are runny, and are the rest of her pellets normal, or is everything coming out runny?

Has her tum ever been normal since you've had her?

has the vet seen a sample of the runny poo? (lovely I know) Has he tested it?

Is she likely to be eating anything unusual around the home that isn't strictly food? What do you use for bedding? 

Adjusting her diet is great advice - take out all fresh, including grass, and remove all types of pellet feed. Feed her on a complete hay only diet for a few weeks - you will know, from buying from the hay experts, that there is a wide variety of different hays, so it doesn't have to be too boring. You can get sample packs to begin with to see what she prefers.

Keep a close eye that she is not deteriotating in any way? Is she bright and lively, alert and doing all she normally does?

If not, get her back to the vets straight away. 

Make sure she has plenty of fluid, by offering in a bowl and a bottle, as she is losing a lot of fluid and will be at risk of dehydration. Add probiotics and vitamins, one to help settle tummy, and the other to make up for any dietary deficiencies caused by not being able to eat caecotrophs.

Have you tried Metacam (from vets). This will deal with any pain, as it is hard to imagine that she has doesn't have tummy ache or gripes with all this going on. It is important to reduce a bun's pain.

Does a hay only diet change the runny poo in any way at all? (Although nothing will change things overnight.)

Consider then offering a few Protexin Pro Fibre pellets a day (buy off internet). (Some of our buns with fragile tummies are on these permanently). 

If things do settle, increase the Protexin pellets a little, and if you want to offer her pellets, go for a few Science Selective. One of our buns has a fragile tummy and can only have 3 a day. Any fresh will send her splatting everywhere. However, this settles down straight away with hay only.

Don't be frightened to go back and back and back to the vets - but only if they know their rabbit stuff, otherwise it is a waste of your money and pointless stress for your bun.

I am assuming that there is no mucus from what I have read, but do keep an eye out.

Fianlly, can I suggest that you look at the Cottontails resuce website - there are some excellent photos (if you like looking at poo, etc.), and some good advice re care and treatment of enteritis. It may be worth contacting them for advice, and printing out what they say and taking it to your vets.

It seems very likely that you will need to go back to the vets - are they rabbit savvy? If not, it may be wise to get a second opinion.

When you do go away, she will need to be protected from flies (old fashioned net curtains will help), as she is at high risk of fly strike which is absolutely horrendous. Will the people looking after her be able to keep up the regime of washing?

I do hope some of this helps a little.

And good luck


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

My vets are very rabbit savvy, they have a great reputation with rabbits, which is why i take them there.

she is a very stressed rabbit, she is a rescue and has always been stressed and very nervous. obviously she is getting stressed with trips to the vets and me having to bath her daily. i dont have anything else in the flat that could stress her.

i bathed her last night and this morning her back end was soaked again and mess all over the floor. 

she does do 'normal' poos and also some slightly soft poos. but what is coming out of her is brown liquid that looks like gravy. this is in pools where she sits/lays in it as well. i am going to get some puppy pads today and tape them to the floor so atleast she wont sit in the mess.

her tummy has never been right, occasioanlly it would be a few small spots of the brown liquid but nothing to this extent.

the vet hasnt taken a poo sample yet.

no she isnt eating anything unusual as far as i know, there isnt really much for them to eat. they are free range rabbits and are not caged. i used wood pellet litter in their litter tray.

she seems to be ok in herself is still eating and drinking ok. she has been on anti biotics (2 week course) as her tummy and 'areas' were red and a bit sore. she is on avipro now and i have tried the pro fibre pellets but she wont eat them.

the vets have not said anything about pain relief, although to me she doesnt seem in pain?

i have contaced a new bunny sitter who is very rabbit savvy. at the moment she is needing bathing everyday, so i need to check with her that she would be ok with this as its a 2 person job. 

i cant even tell you how much this is worrying me i feel like crying i am so upset for her. i feel helpless and i dont want to leave her but i have already paid for my holiday

what i dont understand is why this is getting worse and worse every day. she has had no veg since friday and its made no difference.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

You are really doing all you can, and she's lucky you have sought out a great vet, so hang on in there.

You are right about the stress - washing her daily and taking her to the vets will make a stresshead worse, and it will take its toll on her, but is unlikely to be the contributory cause, and you have no choice but to do these.

It's probably not relevant here,because your bun came with the problem, but we had to stop using the wood pellet litter with some buns, because they started eating it - although I would expect it to gum her up rather than anything. We only use newspaper and hay now, no sawdust shavings either.

Puppy pads are a good idea. We have got through a lot of those at times.

Re reducing stress if she's that way inclined - Does she have a darkish place to retreat to, to make her feel "safe"? Is where she lives over noisy or over bright? Perhaps you could put a fleecy blanket over the top of where she rests, to block out overhead light. Could you try her in a quieter, darker room, or do you think this might stress her more?

Have you got any new pets recently?

Has she had a new friend/lost a friend recently, and be reacting to that?

Are you more stressed than usual- some buns really feed off the emotions of their owners - bloomin hard isn't it? 

I am assuming that the vet routinely checks her teeth when you visit, as this will impact on her digestion.

I would definitely consider (or talk to your vet about) metacam pain relief. At the very least, her bottom is likely to sting, and she is very likely to have tummy ache. Our vet always prescribes pain relief as a first point of treatment with buns, to stop anything escalating or the bun shutting down. It might just improve her general well being.

Antibiotics were sensible, but not all antibiotics target all infections and she may have an infectious form of enteritis, as it sounds extreme. However, antibiotics can upset the gut too, so they need to be given carefully, and with probiotic back up to protect the gut.

Obviously she has a history of fragile tummy, if not as bad as this - maybe she was poorly weaned, given milk, who knows. Some rescue buns have led horrific lives before finding their forever homes. This is not your fault.

Does she possibly have a long standing injury that she came with and might have aggravated? I am thinking about a back injury, leading to pain, that might be dragging her down?

Re your holiday, of course you will worry, but unless you are going to the back of beyond, you will be able to stay in touch or be contactable in emergencies. You will feel better if you give your rabbit savvy sitter copious written instructions, warn the vets you are going away, and give her permission to phone them or take her to vets. it's so much easier to stay in touch nowadays anyway.

Finally, however good your vet is, if they are out of ideas, they will usually be happy for you get a second opinion further afield, or they will, with your permission do so themsleves. Vets, like us, are on a continual learning curve, and no vet can know everything.

Good luck


----------



## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

did she ever have a faecal screen done?:confused1:


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Another thought - as she is a rescue bun, I am assuming that she has been spayed? ie, that this is defo liquid waste of some sort, not extreme discharge from lady bits. Does it smell like poo?

On your next visit to the vets, you could take a used puppy pad - clearer than explaining, and they will have seen worse, so don't feel embarrassed. it could help.


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

Lopside said:


> did she ever have a faecal screen done?:confused1:


no they just sedated her and took blood


----------



## Guest (Aug 21, 2012)

daisyboo said:


> no they just sedated her and took blood


I would urge your vet to do a fecal screening, that way you might have more of a clue what is going on. I am a bit surprised the vet hasn't suggested it yet considering how long this has been going on :confused1:


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

yes she has been spayed, i have had her over 2 years so its not like she is new to me and something i have done is causing the problem or stress. 

she sits under the sofas most of the time where it is dark and she feels safe. she will happily come on the sofa to sit with me and will take food from your hand so she isnt that nervous. just stupid things will send her running off like a noise or if you get up quickly.

they live in the living room so its very quiet all day when we are out, obviously at night times we have the tv on etc but she isnt bothered by this really.

i havent got any other pets only her and her husbun boo they have been together for over 2 years. i dont think she has any injury of any sort, they did give her a good check over and she has her teeth checked and they are fine.

i havent sniffed the offending mess but i havent noticed a bad smell. i will speak to the vets about metacam they said her bloods are down as urgent so i am waiting for them to call me back about that.

thanks alot for your help im at my wits end and feel like im going mad, and yes i am very stressed we are in the process of buying a house and im worried about ivy and everything :frown:


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Not surprised you are stressed. It makes us feel so helpless when a bun is ill - and as for moving/ - no comment!!

I am sure it is nothing you have done, and the bond is a long standing one, etc. But I do agree about testing a sample, and am surprised the vet hasn't suggested that yet as the problem is an ongoing one.

I do hope you can solve this soon, for you and your buns sake.


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

i have put the puppy pads down which have got shredded within 5 mins 

i have smelt the liquid and it doesnt smell like poo at all. i am thinking could it be very dark wee?


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

that is possible. Wee can be a myriad of colours. Sometimes innocently, sometimes indicating a problem. The vet should be able to identify better what the liquid actually is.


----------



## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

the vets rang me this morning and ivys bloods are all clear


----------

