# breeding problem



## davist (Jan 25, 2008)

My female has had 3 litters in the past. We use to have the stud dog on our property so trying to pin point the breeding time was not an issue. The last 2heats were not successful breedings, I thought I had "missed" the ovulation time. We've tried 2 different stud dogs, the female stands for them but the dogs do not tie up and there is no litter. This is the 3rd breeding attempt, the 3rd heat and we've had a stud dog here from day 8 of her heat until today which is the 13th day still the stud dog does not try to long and doesn't tie up. The female is standing for him and has her tail to the side. What is the problem? I don't get it? The stud dog has bred in the past too??


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

davist said:


> My female has had 3 litters in the past. We use to have the stud dog on our property so trying to pin point the breeding time was not an issue. The last 2heats were not successful breedings, I thought I had "missed" the ovulation time. We've tried 2 different stud dogs, the female stands for them but the dogs do not tie up and there is no litter. This is the 3rd breeding attempt, the 3rd heat and we've had a stud dog here from day 8 of her heat until today which is the 13th day still the stud dog does not try to long and doesn't tie up. The female is standing for him and has her tail to the side. What is the problem? I don't get it? The stud dog has bred in the past too??


The most common reason for missing is getting the wrong time.

How old is your bitch? To have had 3 litters and to have missed on 3 recent seasons she must be getting on a bit? A bitch has usually just 6 productive years (around 2 years to before her 8th birthday), and you would have a year or so between litters?

At day 13 in my breed it would be a rare bitch that was ready most of the successful outcomes I have had have been mated on days 15 to 17.

If the stud is experienced then if he is not that interested she isn't ready.

Bitches that have had litters previously will often be very willing to mate for prolonged periods, but a good stud will know when she is actually ready. What days did she stand for the last 3 litters, as if it was a similar time for each one then that is a good indication, though each season can be different.

If she has already had 3 litters then she should have produced something worthwhile for you already and perhaps it is time to retire her.


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## davist (Jan 25, 2008)

She is 4 1/2, still in her prime. She is a larador retriever. 

We have a waiting list of people who are wanting to buy pups and have been waiting since the last heat. I always skip a heat between litters and do plan on getting her spayed if she has another litter. I'm feeling bad about having to make phone calls once again to people on the waiting list. 

Maybe I just need to give them more time. I don't know the day of her heats when she bred in the past, I didn't worry about it because we owned the stud dog and he lived here on the property. The only thing I really kept track of is the day they first bred so I would know when it was time for her to whelp. We no longer own the stud dog, we are using someone elses.


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## nici (Nov 10, 2007)

my bitch never used to tie right until the end of her season, she like yours would stand and move tail but still it didnt happen till the end . and i mean the end, i always think i missed it as she was always at the end of 3 weeks. i had a stud her with me from the 6 day and he stayed for two hole weeks and still nearly missed it as they only tied the day before he was due to be picked up hope this helps


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## CreatureCrazy (Jan 25, 2008)

So your bitch is 4 1/2 years old, has had three litters already and the past three seasons hasn't been 'caught'?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

davist said:


> My female has had 3 litters in the past. We use to have the stud dog on our property so trying to pin point the breeding time was not an issue. The last 2heats were not successful breedings, I thought I had "missed" the ovulation time. We've tried 2 different stud dogs, the female stands for them but the dogs do not tie up and there is no litter. This is the 3rd breeding attempt, the 3rd heat and we've had a stud dog here from day 8 of her heat until today which is the 13th day still the stud dog does not try to long and doesn't tie up. The female is standing for him and has her tail to the side. What is the problem? I don't get it? The stud dog has bred in the past too??


I myself would recommend getting pre-mate test done on her next season, Maybe going from her 12th day upwards, Befor that make sure u get a experienced stud lined up who is well proven.
The pre-mate test showed my female was'nt fertile untill her 19th day, I was shocked at the 19th day because its so close to coming of her season, But she still took and had 9 babys to show 4 it .


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> I myself would recommend getting pre-mate test done on her next season, Maybe going from her 12th day upwards, Befor that make sure u get a experienced stud lined up who is well proven.
> The pre-mate test showed my female was'nt fertile untill her 19th day, I was shocked at the 19th day because its so close to coming of her season, But she still took and had 9 babys to show 4 it .


 some bull terriers have huge litters ! my tia came from a litter of 11


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

garryd said:


> some bull terriers have huge litters ! my tia came from a litter of 11


 wow,,,your have your hands full then,,if she takes after her mum,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

garryd said:


> some bull terriers have huge litters ! my tia came from a litter of 11


Good gawd  11 of the terrors  9 was hard enough to hand rear, Let alone having an extra 2 ontop 

I called all mine the bull terrorist lol, They was so cute yet so naughty lol.


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

my dog had a litter abou 7 years ago she had 12 2 passed away but we had 10 little terrors to care for luckily for us she was a great mum


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> wow,,,your have your hands full then,,if she takes after her mum,,,,,,,,,,,,,


i would rather a smaller litter and more healthy if you know what i mean !i would rather the bitch be taking care of them than bottle feeding them all !


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

we had a staff that had 9,, blooming hard work,, we lost the smallest,, it was really nice to all white with a black eye patch and ear, my other staff had 4 pups and that was much better, for her and me,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## davist (Jan 25, 2008)

Breeding problem solved. They did tie up yesterday, day 14. They needed a little assistance, the stud is a bit smaller. Thanks for all your advice and encouragement!


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

good news then,keep us posted, and if you have the patter of tiny feet,, we would love pictures,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

garryd said:


> i would rather a smaller litter and more healthy if you know what i mean !i would rather the bitch be taking care of them than bottle feeding them all !


I did'nt bottle feed all mine, Mine had their mums natural milk, I got up every hour morning noon and night and put pups on their mum and stayed wile they had their fill, Then i took them to bed with me, English bulls can be aukward mums and i myself would never take a chance and leave them with mum, Iv'e heard of to many being suffocated by mum, Alot of top breeders do it this way aswell, As it was them who taught me how to rear them and not take a chance . Mine turned out to be very nice strong healthy big boys and girls 
Only the best for mine thats for sure.


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

davist said:


> Breeding problem solved. They did tie up yesterday, day 14. They needed a little assistance, the stud is a bit smaller. Thanks for all your advice and encouragement!


congrats lets hope she takes and you end up some lovely pups


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

davist said:


> Breeding problem solved. They did tie up yesterday, day 14. They needed a little assistance, the stud is a bit smaller. Thanks for all your advice and encouragement!


Yes congrats on the mating  Hope all turns out as u hoped.
Hopfully you will be posting on here with some lovely babys to show off to us all .


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

sounds like your bitch has had enough if she has had 3 litters how old was she when you first bred her??????????Being four and a half now she may be in her prime but you bred her before her 2nd birthday i think the poor girl has had enough. Did you not keep a pup from a previous litter that can have a litter??? Personally i think you should spay her and have her as a pet, reward the girl with the love she deserves for having three litters. Dogs are not breeding machines and i would only allow mine 2 have 3 litters alltogether.

Louise


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

I dont see how letting your dog have more than 3 litters is punnishment!
The K.C allow a bitch of breeding age to have up to 5.
One of my BT's has had 3 litters and she loved every minute of motherhood. So much so that she has been used as a surrogate before and has also helped my BM with half her litter!


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

the kc allows bitches upto 8 to have puppies and bitches as young at 12 months if you contact them directly. This doesnt make it ethical!!!!!!! having up to 5 isnt either. They may love motherhood, but its an awful lot to ask of a dog, im sure she would love every minute of life the same without having a litter. having a litter is instinct to a dog they dont know better. However we as humans should, and be kind to know when enough is enough, like i said before not breeding machines.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> I dont see how letting your dog have more than 3 litters is punnishment!
> The K.C allow a bitch of breeding age to have up to 5.
> One of my BT's has had 3 litters and she loved every minute of motherhood. So much so that she has been used as a surrogate before and has also helped my BM with half her litter!


i have only allowed mine 2 litters, But i think if there was a limit on how many i'ld give my dogs it would be 3 litters, But i personally think if people do it properly and not breed every season which i have seen where i came from, Then i donot see a problem.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> the kc allows bitches upto 8 to have puppies and bitches as young at 12 months if you contact them directly. This doesnt make it ethical!!!!!!! having up to 5 isnt either. They may love motherhood, but its an awful lot to ask of a dog, im sure she would love every minute of life the same without having a litter. having a litter is instinct to a dog they dont know better. However we as humans should, and be kind to know when enough is enough, like i said before not breeding machines.


The K.C do not allow bitches of 8 to have litters at all! You need to get your facts straight here! They may allow a bitch of 7 to have a litter with permission and a vets certificate. 
Breeding dogs is not unethical in any way shape or form as long as its done correctly.
Like you said though, its a natural instinct.
My bitches love being mothers to their own pups and others.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> i have only allowed mine 2 litters, But i think if there was a limit on how many i'ld give my dogs it would be 3 litters, But i personally think if people do it properly and not breed every season which i have seen where i came from, Then i donot see a problem.


Yeah I agree, they shouldnt be bred from every season.


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

i think i have my facts right mate, if i wasnt sure i wouldnt have posted it!!!! if by special request, mating in the 7th year and give birth when she is 8. I do know


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> i think i have my facts right mate, if i wasnt sure i wouldnt have posted it!!!! if by special request, mating in the 7th year and give birth when she is 8. I do know


Then that MATE is classed as 7 years!


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

ok then if you say so, she isnt 8 when she has it then, simple maths


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> ok then if you say so, she isnt 8 when she has it then, simple maths


Im not arguing with you, your clearly on here to dictate and talk down to people and I have no time for someone like that.


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

I am not actually, im all about welfare of the dog. Under the 5 freedoms of welfare for dogs im sure being pregnant or recovering from pregnancy all the time isnt one of them. I think (bit too late now deed has been done) it would be better for her to have a rest for a while, it would be better for her and for her puppies. Was either dog scored or kc registered????


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

Theres one on every forum


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> I am not actually, im all about welfare of the dog. Under the 5 freedoms of welfare for dogs im sure being pregnant or recovering from pregnancy all the time isnt one of them. I think (bit too late now deed has been done) it would be better for her to have a rest for a while, it would be better for her and for her puppies. Was either dog scored or kc registered????


If you read the post properly you would see that his dog had missed the last two atempts therefore has had a rest. I do not know if his dog is registered or hip scored, you'l have to ask him that!
I see that his bitch has had 3 litters already and that is ample for her age agreed but you cant go assuming things about people or their practices.
Im glad you are all for the welfare of dogs but calm down a bit. Your first post on this forum steams straight in for the kill and doesnt set a good first impression.


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

I think this forum needs it, i have heard terrible things about it and by flicking through quite a few unethical BYB. Few home truths, and am i not allowed to express my opinions? I doubt most of them dont health check either

If she missed her last two attempts and is 4 and a half now does that not ring any bells?? Standard 6 month period inbetween seasons. Sorry but i think its unethical. Poor dogs being used to make money by the sounds of it, they are so desperate to have a litter but dont intend to keep any pups themselves and havent from any previous litters.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> I think this forum needs it, i have heard terrible things about it and by flicking through quite a few unethical BYB. Few home truths, and am i not allowed to express my opinions? I doubt most of them dont health check either


Express your opinion by all means but dont dictate and talk down to people!
Like I said dont assume either!
Why have you joined this forum if you've heard such bad things?
Surely you would be better off someplace else?!


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

crystal has always had big litters.
the first was 12 and the second was 15


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

Fade to Grey said:


> crystal has always had big litters.
> the first was 12 and the second was 15


Thats alotta pups lol, Bet u was all kept on ya toes x


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## Labs (Jan 31, 2008)

Hi
new to the forum but felt i needed to add to his thread. I obviously own labradors and it pains me to think of the overbreeding that takes place in this breed I have previously bred litters but have had a waiting list each time and also kept one or two back for myself, all my stock are trained gundogs. I would never dream of mating a bitch before the age of at least 2 years, a bitch has to mature both physically and mentally to rear a litter. I would never have more than 3 litters from a bitch at a push and she would be well rested in-between. The labrador has the highest number of regitrations (over 40,000) and probably just as many non - registered. a large number of these dogs are badly bred with no health test by either BYB who want to make money or people who would think their pet would make a lovely mum or they want a pup just like their bitch. I'm not saying that the OP has not had the relevent breed tests done but just think that to have raised 4 litters by the age of 5 is just too much for a bitch, sorry if I may have offended anyone but I am a sucker for ethics when it comes to breeding.
I think that if you venture down the route of breeding you should go into it with your eyes wide open, and take in what people say. You should remain responsible for every puppy you breed no matter what the age, and take back and rehome it should it prove nessessary, write contracts, endorse papers and give life long help and advice to any owner that needs it


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks for understanding my POV not many people on here seem to understand where i was coming from. 4 litters before she is even 5 come one people does this not strike wrong with you??? IMO there is no point in breeding a recognised breed that isnt kc registered end of


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> Thanks for understanding my POV not many people on here seem to understand where i was coming from. 4 litters before she is even 5 come one people does this not strike wrong with you??? IMO there is no point in breeding a recognised breed that isnt kc registered end of


Your point isnt the problem here, the majority of people on this forum will quite agree with you but its the manner in which you try and get your point across thats the problem!
Maybe you want to think about that before you post next time.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> Thanks for understanding my POV not many people on here seem to understand where i was coming from. 4 litters before she is even 5 come one people does this not strike wrong with you??? IMO there is no point in breeding a recognised breed that isnt kc registered end of


Some try and force feed there code of moral ethics to much as usual on this forum  Its not what people say its how they go about saying it! Even if you say the right thing and your facts are right ,if you put your opinions across in that type of manner ,who in gods name will listen to ya! When you have members on a forum like the above mentioned and lets say brainless,surely it cant be good for business!


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

garryd said:


> Some try and force feed there code of moral ethics to much as usual on this forum  Its not what people say its how they go about saying it! Even if you say the right thing and your facts are right ,if you put your opinions across in that type of manner ,who in gods name will listen to ya! When you have members on a forum like the above mentioned and lets say brainless,surely it cant be good for business!


I second that.


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## dad 2 a welshie (Jan 26, 2008)

When and if i breed my Welsh Springer Spaniel Jola under WSSC rules the bitch has to be at least 2 years old, preferably 3. no bitch should have more than 4 litters nor after 8 years old except under special circumstances.
This is the best bit for my mind,
No bitch should be bred from successive seasons unless a period of time More than 12 months has elapsed between each litter.

There are two pages of guidelines and i wholeheartly agree with it all.

I think there are too many dogs bred in this country but the breds like the welshie are in decline whilst english springers and cockers rise year on year.

I do think that sometimes things do need to change re breeding and even maybe bring back dog licences.


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

She might just be tired from having been bred 3 times already.
give her time to rest or you'll kill her, leave her atleast another year. 
Then if she doesn't breed then, I'm sorry to say but the dog is ruined


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> Your point isnt the problem here, the majority of people on this forum will quite agree with you but its the manner in which you try and get your point across thats the problem!
> Maybe you want to think about that before you post next time.


i think this is the main problem with some people on here. if you want people to listen to you maybe trying to say 'maybe your dog needs a break its had too many litters', without trying to belittle someone who has asked for advice that they would more than likely take on board if spoken to in a nice way they obviously care enough about there pet to ask advice


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

claire said:


> i think this is the main problem with some people on here. if you want people to listen to you maybe trying to say 'maybe your dog needs a break its had too many litters', without trying to belittle someone who has asked for advice that they would more than likely take on board if spoken to in a nice way they obviously care enough about there pet to ask advice


Exactly claire. Many people are right about the points they are making but they dont seem to have the people skills to get it across nicely.
Also you will notice that when you try and tell them this they dont even read your posts properly and assume your just disagreeing with their point! 
I dunno


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

i have asked several people why they are so aggressive in giving advice and not one has answered i think they just cant to be honest


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

claire said:


> i have asked several people why they are so aggressive in giving advice and not one has answered i think they just cant to be honest


I dont think they know how to be any different but that still doesnt make it ok.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> I dont think they know how to be any different but that still doesnt make ok.


if you ask why they are rude they wont give you an answer. its just sad they think its acceptable to speak to people like this


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

Quite clearly the original poster, has no ethics in the overbreeding of her dog. Maybe my first post was a little harsh but it was well deserved im sure many others wouldnt breed a girl before she was 2 or on every season or both. Brainless and i are harsh because, you dont often know your wrong unless someone tells you. It was wrong and saying oh thats was naughty dont do it again just doesnt cut it. There is enough dogs in kennels without people like her adding to them with badly bred, unregistered dogs. She is in it for the money and nothing else.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

claire said:


> i have asked several people why they are so aggressive in giving advice and not one has answered i think they just cant to be honest


Read this thead and point out to me where I have been aggressive http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/2258-breeding-my-bitch.html


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> Quite clearly the original poster, has no ethics in the overbreeding of her dog. Maybe my first post was a little harsh but it was well deserved im sure many others wouldnt breed a girl before she was 2 or on every season or both. Brainless and i are harsh because, you dont often know your wrong unless someone tells you. It was wrong and saying oh thats was naughty dont do it again just doesnt cut it. There is enough dogs in kennels without people like her adding to them with badly bred, unregistered dogs. She is in it for the money and nothing else.


Could have laid money on it that you were something to do with brainless! 
I can smell that attitude a mile off.
Like we've all been saying, your points may be correct but the way you put them across is wrong.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

no one has ever said you are wrong but there is no excuse for speaking to some like they are crap when they ask for advice a simple explaination to them about what was wrong would have done then its down to them to deal with the situation when they know all the facts. i just think its sad people ask for advice and get treated like s##t for doing so of people who know enough to help them


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Read this thead and point out to me where I have been aggressive http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/2258-breeding-my-bitch.html


If you can give advice on there without being aggressive why do it on the forum. I think from what ive seen people are better of asking there vet than asking some who is gonna speak to them like crap for asking OR alternatively they will stop asking and continue doing things wrong because they dont wanna ask anymore because of being belittled


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

louiseddb said:


> sounds like your bitch has had enough if she has had 3 litters how old was she when you first bred her??????????Being four and a half now she may be in her prime but you bred her before her 2nd birthday i think the poor girl has had enough. Did you not keep a pup from a previous litter that can have a litter??? Personally i think you should spay her and have her as a pet, reward the girl with the love she deserves for having three litters. Dogs are not breeding machines and i would only allow mine 2 have 3 litters alltogether.
> 
> Louise


This is what i put in my first post, was short and sharp to the point. I didnt treat her like ****, allthough. From her breeding programme she treats her dogs that way


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## louiseddb (Jan 31, 2008)

Also if she spoke to her VET they would say the same thing your dog has had enough, she shouldnt have been bred so early etc etc. Alot of vets do not really agree with breeding, they think there are enough dogs in kennels. They would certainly not encourage this breeding at all.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

stop trying to agrue with people all the time its very boring!!!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

I generally find unless vets specialise in something,there not really clued up on health tesing etc for certain breeds.

Our vets had never heard of L2/HC for staffords,they asked me for info they could put up in the practice.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

i wouldnt advise people that vets arent clued up cos they train for years to do what they do! also our vet said not to listen to stuff said on the internet and to ask a vet because the person giving advice on the internet could be anyone and know nothing,


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

claire said:


> i wouldnt advise people that vets arent clued up cos what do they train all them years for! also our vet said not to listen to stuff said on the internet and to ask a vet because the person giving advice on the internet could be anyone and know nothing also check with a proffesional


Your quite right they do train for years,but L2/HC was a relatively new disease in staffords and not many knew what it was.My vets asked for info, this was last year,so I took the info requested.

They are trained in medicine for all animals,so have wide knowlege but not many have the knowlege about what tests different breeds should have done prior to breeding.


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## clairemac9 (Jan 14, 2008)

claire said:


> i wouldnt advise people that vets arent clued up cos what do they train all them years for! also our vet said not to listen to stuff said on the internet and to ask a vet because the person giving advice on the internet could be anyone and know nothing also check with a proffesional


you could ask the vet about what someone has told you via net but i agree dont just take there word iv never heard of someone having to tell a vetinary surgern whats what


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

clairemac9 said:


> you could ask the vet about what someone has told you via net but i agree dont just take there word iv never heard of someone having to tell a vetinary surgern whats what


exactly thank you


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

clairemac9 said:


> you could ask the vet about what someone has told you via net but i agree dont just take there word iv never heard of someone having to tell a vetinary surgern whats what


Sorry to join in the arguement, but I have on numerous occasions, including people looking up their animals symptoms on the net because the vet is struggling to diagnose the problem, then going and asking for the medication to cure it. As Sallyanne said vets are trained in medicine, there are lots of things dog related they are not trained in. I know some vets will go out and find the information to fill in the gaps, but often they give advice on things they do not understand such as dog behaviour.

Some past clients of ours had 2 thirteen week old pups a Jack russell and a staffy (yes I know a stupid idea), they were fighting she went to the vet for his advice, which was " I know nothing about behaviour, but in my opinion the stafford should be put to sleep", this pup was 13 weeks old. I hasten to add the advice was ignored and we had a successful outcome.

If my animal is sick and in need of medical attention I will take it to the vet, but I don't think they are all knowing beings regarding animals, to learn everything they would have to spent a lifetime in vet school not seven years.


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## clairemac9 (Jan 14, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> Sorry to join in the arguement, but I have on numerous occasions, including people looking up their animals symptoms on the net because the vet is struggling to diagnose the problem, then going and asking for the medication to cure it. As Sallyanne said vets are trained in medicine, there are lots of things dog related they are not trained in. I know some vets will go out and find the information to fill in the gaps, but often they give advice on things they do not understand such as dog behaviour.
> 
> Some past clients of ours had 2 thirteen week old pups a Jack russell and a staffy (yes I know a stupid idea), they were fighting she went to the vet for his advice, which was " I know nothing about behaviour, but in my opinion the stafford should be put to sleep", this pup was 13 weeks old. I hasten to add the advice was ignored and we had a successful outcome.
> 
> If my animal is sick and in need of medical attention I will take it to the vet, but I don't think they are all knowing beings regarding animals, to learn everything they would have to spent a lifetime in vet school not seven years.


the same as doctors, i work with gps, but i wouldnt give them advice jenny please dont think im critising anyone im just not like that


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> Sorry to join in the arguement, but I have on numerous occasions, including people looking up their animals symptoms on the net because the vet is struggling to diagnose the problem, then going and asking for the medication to cure it. As Sallyanne said vets are trained in medicine, there are lots of things dog related they are not trained in. I know some vets will go out and find the information to fill in the gaps, but often they give advice on things they do not understand such as dog behaviour.
> 
> Some past clients of ours had 2 thirteen week old pups a Jack russell and a staffy (yes I know a stupid idea), they were fighting she went to the vet for his advice, which was " I know nothing about behaviour, but in my opinion the stafford should be put to sleep", this pup was 13 weeks old. I hasten to add the advice was ignored and we had a successful outcome.
> 
> If my animal is sick and in need of medical attention I will take it to the vet, but I don't think they are all knowing beings regarding animals, to learn everything they would have to spent a lifetime in vet school not seven years.


Thanks Jenny,
That was what I was tying to get accross,glad the outcome was successful with the staffie.


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## davist (Jan 25, 2008)

Wow, I'm the one that started this thread and haven't had the time to be on here to read them in days. I want to give those a BIG THANK YOU For your helpful tips and advice that was exactly what I was looking for.
For those who have negative assumptions, here are the FACTS. We are AKC registered, I register my litters. The litters are health checked, wormed, have their first shots and go to their new homes with puppy packets which includes a training guide. My bitch will be 5 years old next month. She gets yearly visits from the vet. Her hips are certified with good ratings. Every dog/breed is different, labs are generaly healthy. Our dog is part of the family, I would have never bred her if she wasn't fit and healthy. People want pups from reputable breeders, I have alot of references and customers who still keep in contact with me from 3 years ago. I did go to my vet before I came here and she said the stud dog probably had bad aim, we ended up having to assist him which I didn't want to do so I went to this forum. My vet said nothing about not breeding her. I did assist in the breeding, the stud dog was shorter and that was the problem. The breeding took. I think it is awsome that so many labs are registered in the last year, to me that means people care enough to take the next step. Hunting and protection is big where I live, it's important to hunters to get a young pup and have them trained early on to hunt. I also went to a huge dog show and watching dogs in competitions, the agility classes were a blast. There was something about rehoming dogs on the forum?? I think that's great unless you want to train the dog for something they're bred for. Both my female and stud dog are from champion field lines. For those of you (there was only a couple) who had harsh words and no facts who responded, there's a book out called "Choice Words" by Peter H. Johnston. This would be a handy little book for you to read. Thanks again to those who helped. Isn't that what this forums about?


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Im so sorry you had such negative responses from a couple of other members.
I think its a disgusting the way they judge some people on here. 
Im glad things went well with this mating and I wish you all the best for the weeks that follow. You sound like a very knowledgable and responsible breeder and thats the way it should be.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2008)

Sorry you had some negative comments most people try to give good POLITE!!!! advice just goes to prove you shouldnt judge people untill you know the facts!


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2008)

claire said:


> Sorry you had some negative comments most people try to give good POLITE!!!! advice just goes to prove you shouldnt judge people untill you know the facts!


Very well said


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

Well have been reading this thread and I must admit I am amazed about how you can justify the way you breed and think it is right 

I work for Lab rescue and also have owned Labs for over 20 years so know abit about my breed 

Have a look at this site and maybe you can see the devasting effects bad breeding can result in.

Welcome to Labrador Health


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## dad 2 a welshie (Jan 26, 2008)

Well i too have been reading this thread but has anybody taken any notice where this person is, Ie oregon which if im mistaken is in the states.

As they have had a chance to reply to all the comments positive and negative i think they sound a good and honest person and whats not right in the uk Does NOT mean its not right anywhere else. And the persons Vets sound like they have been involved and i would like to think that said vet would object if the bitch in question was being over bred.
Ofcourse different people will always have different opinions on every different thing in life and breeding of dogs is one such emotive subject.

I have found some of the answers in this thread rude and patronising and full of self importance but it would be a boring world if everyone agreed with each other.

Lets just help where we can, Agree to disagree and carry on with a good forum, One which i hope to get alot of help from in the future.


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## dad 2 a welshie (Jan 26, 2008)

Oh and if a small hobby breeder gets this kind of reaction, God forbid any PUPPY farmers.

Now thats the people you should all be up in arms about and doing your best to get stopped and then you would reduce the puppy population by a big percentage.

Anyone that has 1 or more litters a year should i think be licenced and registared with their local council and should even be inspected at random and if anything is a miss should have their licence revoked there and then and only getting it back when standards have been met.

We should be making it as difficult as possible for those people who think its a cash cow to be milked and not breeding for the good of the breed.

Sorry if this has upset anyone but there are far too many puppies and dogs in rescues and its high time things changed for the animals sake.


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

Ok the OP is in America so lets look at what the is the recommendation for health tests for Labs then 

Hip scoring should only happen at two years old and OFA Xrays at one year old so how come the bitch has had 3 litters by 3 3 1/2 years old 

So as you have said _if anything is a miss_ then why is it right ?

The OP is probably a very nice but doesn't mean to say they have a clue what they are doing when it comes to the welfare of the bitch in question.

Please lets look at the welfare of ANY Lab if bred form a reputable, BYB or a Puppy farmer. We should should have the same standards what ever the breeder 

_Sorry if this has upset anyone but there are far too many puppies and dogs in rescues and its high time things changed for the animals sake. _

Have a look here and maybe you can see a little more insight to the BYB problem.

No Puppy Mills Canada - What is a Puppy Mill?

*Of the 52.9 million dogs who live in the United States, approximately 2.9 million of them are killed in shelters annually (AVMA, 1998, and AHA, 1998). Where do all these dogs come from? Puppy mills churn out 20% of the total number of dogs whelped yearly, and roughly 1% are the results of feral dogs reproducing on their own. Less than 12% come from breeders who actively test their stock in conformation, obedience, and field trials. Backyard breeders, or people who breed their dogs without testing and certifying their stock, produce nearly 67% of all the dogs born annually in this country (Gardner, 1994)1.*

Sorry but the figures really do speak for themselves


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## dad 2 a welshie (Jan 26, 2008)

Well there you are then,Backyard breeders, or people who breed their dogs without testing and certifying their stock, produce nearly 67% of all the dogs born annually in this country (Gardner, 1994)1.

Get rid of all the backyard breeders and that would be over half of the population of dogs born every year wouldnt it.

Then whilst getting rid of the byb's bring in Mandatory Dog Licences for every single person that has a dog be it a worker/show/breeding/pet and then maybe we could then sort out the mess that this country has about all these dogs in rescue. And not only that but if people had to pay and also registar their dogs it might put some people off which would be a bonus.

I would gladly pay £20 a year per dog to fund some sort a scheme to help and educate the public of this country to think more about the unwanted animals in this country. You only have to look at some rescues to see they are stuffed to the gunnals with dogs of all different ages for rehoming. Why do people have dogs if they are not going to keep them for life.

I have made a commitment to my dogs that they will be with me for LIFE. PERIOD. NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

So yes lets have the same standards what ever the breeder and make it harder for people who breed for the money, It should NEVER be for the money. I will only breed my new welshie bitch if 1, she passes all the health checks, 2 Have homes for all the pups she might have, 3 vetted every single home 4 im 100% happy with the home 5, They will be sold with a No breeding clause unless i lift it.

Oh and how about some upto date figures as well, some of them are ten years old.

And im not going to comment on the op as i will wait for them to reply to your point's before i speak about that.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

dad 2 a welshie said:


> Well there you are then,Backyard breeders, or people who breed their dogs without testing and certifying their stock, produce nearly 67% of all the dogs born annually in this country (Gardner, 1994)1.
> 
> Get rid of all the backyard breeders and that would be over half of the population of dogs born every year wouldnt it.
> 
> ...


Peoples circumstances change,marraige breakdown,loss of property etc,which can result in some dogs going through rescue but the way I think is, the Breeders that bred these dogs should take them back and rehome instead of putting the strain on rescues.

The majority of dogs that go through rescue are through byb,pf who do not and will not take responsilbilty for dogs/pups they have bred,I find this unacceptable.Maybe we all add to the problem by breeding,well at least that's the assumption from alot on this forum anyway,however I know that I will never add to the rescue crisis,I haven't bred for 13 yrs,if and when I breed again,I will take back any dog I bred for whatever reason,regardless of it's age,therefore not adding to the problem.I have a responsiblity to those pups/dogs I bred not just for 8 weeks while they are with us but for the rest of there lives.

There was a piece in the dog press this week highlighting an animal rescue and saying how many staffords are irresponsibily bred and end up in rescue.This is another breed that is overbred,rescues are struggling and at one point there were more sbt's in rescue than crossbreeds.

As for the op I'm not sure what to make of it to be honest.....


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

Its not always poorly bred unloved dogs that end up at centers ! Thats a myth ,as you can get even show dogs that end up there ,but the majority of the problem is over breeding ! Some breeders say they will take a dog back but not if they have to give any money back  This causes the owner to go sell the dog on to a new home which don't always work out ,when this 2nd owner circumstances change the dog is all ready to old to sell and he ends up putting it in center! this is what happens most or some of the time ! If there went as many dog buyers there went be as many breeders! Its the choices that potential buyers/dog owners make that the main cause ! If you cant look after a dog till the rest of his years then don't fcuking buy him 
It makes me sad when i see a English Bull terrier in his later years in a center ! My oldest Bull terrier called bully is coming 9 this year and i couldn't let him go for the world ,he knows my every move ,hes not interested in anyone else other than me and it would be mammoth task for him to get used to a new home! would that be fair????
My message as a breeder/dog owner is simple, If you cant look after a dog till the rest of his years then don't fcuking buy him


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

garryd said:


> Its not always poorly bred unloved dogs that end up at centers ! Thats a myth ,as you can get even show dogs that end up there ,but the majority of the problem is over breeding ! Some breeders say they will take a dog back but not if they have to give any money back  This causes the owner to go sell the dog on to a new home which don't always work out ,when this 2nd owner circumstances change the dog is all ready to old to sell and he ends up putting it in center! this is what happens most or some of the time ! If there went as many dog buyers there went be as many breeders! Its the choices that potential buyers/dog owners make that the main cause ! If you cant look after a dog till the rest of his years then don't fcuking buy him
> It makes me sad when i see a English Bull terrier in his later years in a center ! My oldest Bull terrier called bully is coming 9 this year and i couldn't let him go for the world ,he knows my every move ,hes not interested in anyone else other than me and it would be mammoth task for him to get used to a new home! would that be fair????
> My message as a breeder/dog owner is simple, If you cant look after a dog till the rest of his years then don't fcuking buy him


I know where your coming from, I took one off mine back as a two and a half yr old nightmare,the owners felt they could not manage him anymore,he was in such a state,dog aggressive,he was attacked when he was a young pup.Hubby sorted him out,and we rehomed him to a good close family friend,he's still going strong at nearly 13 yrs old.

So what happens for example husband wife couple of kids,new puppy,husband loses job,loose house,find other accomadation but no dogs allowed,one thing we can't see is the future,things change.

So as secure as you think you are,things can and do change,somtimes leaving owners no choice but then it should be down to the Breeder to step in and help with rehoming or taking the dog back.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I know where your coming from, I took one off mine back as a two and a half yr old nightmare,the owners felt they could not manage him anymore,he was in such a state,dog aggressive,he was attacked when he was a young pup.Hubby sorted him out,and we rehomed him to a good close family friend,he's still going strong at nearly 13 yrs old.
> 
> So what happens for example husband wife couple of kids,new puppy,husband loses job,loose house,find other accomadation but no dogs allowed,one thing we can't see is the future,things change.
> 
> So as secure as you think you are,things can and do change,somtimes leaving owners no choice but then it should be down to the Breeder to step in and help with rehoming or taking the dog back.


Everything what your saying is right ,but i feel that majority of the dog owners especially with our breeds Sallyanne, buy these dogs and when the going gets tough they decide to get rid ,this is usually down to the dog destroying there home by chewing it to death ! And this is all down to them not having time to spend walking the dog and keeping it mentally stimulated ! They buy these dog as a fad i feel ,and they dont realy think it through!


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

garryd said:


> Everything what your saying is right ,but i feel that majority of the dog owners especially with our breeds Sallyanne, buy these dogs and when the going gets tough they decide to get rid ,this is usually down to the dog destroying there home by chewing it to death ! And this is all down to them not having time to spend walking the dog and keeping it mentally stimulated ! They buy these dog as a fad i feel ,and they dont realy think it through!


Yes the bull breeds do suffer at the hands of irresponsible morons,mine are crated seperatly at night and during the day if we go out,that way my house remains in one piece,plus I know they are safe and can't start a fight with each other.I don't think for a minute they ever would but I need to remember what they are and I've seen the damage they can do,not a risk I'm prepared to take.


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

There are lots of Labs in rescue are because of selling puppies to people who haven't got a clue on what training and excercise a Lab needs as a direct result of the ignorance of the breeders selling the pups to these homes. 

We have so many young adolences who were 'far too boistrous' or 'we dont have the time' or 'too destructive'


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

That said, I think some of the blame should be taken off the breeders that do all they can to vet potential owners and blame the 'ignorant' buyers. After all they are the ones that choose to get rid of the dog later down the line.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> That said, I think some of the blame should be taken off the breeders that do all they can to vet potential owners and blame the 'ignorant' buyers. After all they are the ones that choose to get rid of the dog later down the line.


Thats what i was trying to say


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

garryd said:


> Thats what i was trying to say


I know, I just wanted to add my 2p coz I was feeling left out! 
Its right though, the majority of responsible breeders sell puppies in good faith. They trust the buyer after vetting them and what more can a breeder do? My phone lines are always open to the new owners no matter how old the dog may be but its down to them to get intouch if there is a problem.
The potential buyers need to be responsible and educate themselves about puppies. They need to realise its a lifetime commitment.
I think every owner should have a dog licence too.


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

Yes but if the breeder was reputable and wanted to make sure any of their puppies were safe in good homes then they would stipulate they would have them back under *any* circumstances. Yes sometimes with all good intentions somebody finds they can't cope but how many go to rescue or appear in the free ads ?


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

Moosesmummy said:


> Yes but if the breeder was reputable and wanted to make sure any of their puppies were safe in good homes then they would stipulate they would have them back under *any* circumstances. Yes sometimes with all good intentions somebody finds they can't cope but how many go to rescue or appear in the free ads ?


What i was trying to say earlier was that most breeders don't want to hand any money back but happily will take the puppy back,this what causes the buyer to say stuff you! i will advertise the dog and try and recoup some of my money ect ect this is when the dog gets sold to some low life on a council estate who finds out he or she allso don't want it ,who then further down the line abandons it or puts it in a center !


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Moosesmummy said:


> Yes but if the breeder was reputable and wanted to make sure any of their puppies were safe in good homes then they would stipulate they would have them back under *any* circumstances. Yes sometimes with all good intentions somebody finds they can't cope but how many go to rescue or appear in the free ads ?


Its not the fault of the reputable breeder if the buyer chooses not to contact the breeder. It doesnt matter how much you stipulate or if you have a signed contract, none of it garauntees the buyer doing what was agreed and I cant see how the breeder can then be blamed!
Its the irresponsible buyers that need educating. They need to stop buying on impulse and really look into these things. Like I said before, its a lifetime commitment and they need to think about whats best for the dog and not their pocket when their situation changes.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> Its not the fault of the reputable breeder if the buyer chooses not to contact the breeder. It doesnt matter how much you stipulate or if you have a signed contract, none of it garauntees the buyer doing what was agreed and I cant see how the breeder can then be blamed!
> Its the irresponsible buyers that need educating. They need to stop buying on impulse and really look into these things. Like I said before, its a lifetime commitment and they need to think about whats best for the dog and not their pocket when their situation changes.


Totally agree,We paid for our dog when he came back to us,simply because we didn't want him sold on to the wrong people.

I think some owners get embarrassed if things go wrong and don't get in touch and either sell or contact rescue.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Totally agree,We paid for our dog when he came back to us,simply because we didn't want him sold on to the wrong people.
> 
> I think some owners get embarrassed if things go wrong and don't get in touch and either sell or contact rescue.


I think your right, alot of them do feel embarassed, I can understand that but they need to swallow their pride and realise it would be so much better for the pup/dog if they did get intouch.
I think if the breeder is in the position to buy the dog back and its the only option then thats what they should do, but its a tough one if the new owner wants money and the breeder cant come up with the cash, what happens then?!


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

No but a reputable breeder will build a relationship with the buyer and make sure they feel comfortable if anything goes wrong. 

If it is difficult to do that the main reasons would be breeding too many litters so it would be impossible or don't give a damn about who they sell to.


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

bullbreeds said:


> I think your right, alot of them do feel embarassed, I can understand that but they need to swallow their pride and realise it would be so much better for the pup/dog if they did get intouch.
> I think if the breeder is in the position to buy the dog back and its the only option then thats what they should do, but its a tough one if the new owner wants money and the breeder cant come up with the cash, what happens then?!


A good breeder would always come up with the cash if they had any responsibilty to the dog. It is not as if they would have vast quantites of dogs been handed back being very careful in who the sell their pups to


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Moosesmummy said:


> A good breeder would always come up with the cash if they had any responsibilty to the dog. It is not as if they would have vast quantites of dogs been handed back being very careful in who the sell their pups to


I suppose being a responsible breeder they would have firstly thought of planting a money tree before they started would they!
Its unfair and rediculous to assume a breeder always has enough cash to spare just incase! It just doesnt happen that way. As much as we would all like to have some set by, this is the real world and breeders have circumstances and situations aswel!
My point was it would be a tough one if the idiotic buyer would only hand the pup over for money. Shouldnt they be more concerned for the welfare of the dog they bought?


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

bullbreeds said:


> I suppose being a responsible breeder they would have firstly thought of planting a money tree before they started would they!
> Its unfair and rediculous to assume a breeder always has enough cash to spare just incase! It just doesnt happen that way. As much as we would all like to have some set by, this is the real world and breeders have circumstances and situations aswel!
> My point was it would be a tough one if the idiotic buyer would only hand the pup over for money. Shouldnt they be more concerned for the welfare of the dog they bought?


Sorry but I don't think it is at all ridiculous to say a breeder would have the money. As I said the likelyhood of a good breeder having vast quantities of pups returned would be minimal and so the money tree would not be needed.

Yes the person returning the dog should be thinking about the welfare and again the breeder with careful vetting can get an idea what a potential puppy buyer would do.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Moosesmummy said:


> Sorry but I don't think it is at all ridiculous to say a breeder would have the money. As I said the likelyhood of a good breeder having vast quantities of pups returned would be minimal and so the money tree would not be needed.
> 
> Yes the person returning the dog should be thinking about the welfare and again the breeder with careful vetting can get an idea what a potential puppy buyer would do.


Yeah, whatever.


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

bullbreeds said:


> Yeah, whatever.


Nice to see this discussion carrying on in a nice polite adult manner


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Moosesmummy said:


> Nice to see this discussion carrying on in a nice polite adult manner


Its impossible to discuss a topic with someone so arrogant and judgemental.
Think we'd all agree your one of the few on here that needs to dictate to people and make yourself right regardless of how you put it across.
You lack the people skills to have an adequate discussion im afraid.


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## Moosesmummy (Nov 20, 2007)

bullbreeds said:


> Its impossible to discuss a topic with someone so arrogant and judgemental.
> Think we'd all agree your one of the few on here that needs to dictate to people and make yourself right regardless of how you put it across.
> You lack the people skills to have an adequate discussion im afraid.


Arrogant and judgemental ? People skills ? 

I am not sure what job you do but I do a job that requires excellent people skills so know quite a lot about the subject 

*Eight essential people skills*

Understanding people : I understand people and know when somebody is struggling to have a reasonable discussion without making comments like 'Yea whatever'

Expressing your thoughts and feelings clearly : Think I have done that 

Speaking up when your needs are not being met : Think I have done that 

Asking for feedback from others and giving quality feedback in return : Think I have done that 

Influencing how others think and act : I have highlighted how wrong the ethics of the OP are concerning how is is undertaking breeding of his bitch.

Bringing conflicts to the surface and getting them resolved : Yes the resolve bit has some more work to do on it 

Collaborating with others instead of doing things by yourself : Think there are a few people on here that have seen and agreed the OP is doing something fundamentally wrong

Shifting gears when relationships are unproductive : Yes think it might be the last post I do on this subject as clearly it is going nowhere as I seem to have hit a brick wall when trying to have a discussion on the subject, instead having to give you my view on people skills 

Conclusion : I have been polite and straight forward in my posts and if people do not like to discuss things in an adult or polite manner back then it is not worth wasting anymore effort and will leave you to it !


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Moosesmummy said:


> Arrogant and judgemental ? People skills ?
> 
> I am not sure what job you do but I do a job that requires excellent people skills so know quite a lot about the subject
> 
> ...


Ok sweetie, theres nothing like venting to get it out your system aye!
Conclusion: PMT.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

A Breeder is responsible for the dogs they breed,they are not always in a position to take a dog back,there circumstances change also,they are humans the same as the rest of us.

I.E Breeder gives up breeding,moves house,can't get a job etc....they don't have bottomless pockets,no one can see the future,so to say breeders always have money is a sweeping statement....


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> A Breeder is responsible for the dogs they breed,they are not always in a position to take a dog back,there circumstances change also,they are humans the same as the rest of us.
> 
> I.E Breeder gives up breeding,moves house,can't get a job etc....they don't have bottomless pockets,no one can see the future,so to say breeders always have money is a sweeping statement....


Thankyou sally, thats what I was trying to say.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2008)

Moosesmummy said:


> Arrogant and judgemental ? People skills ?
> 
> I am not sure what job you do but I do a job that requires excellent people skills so know quite a lot about the subject
> 
> ...


Reading previous post i would doubt your people skills too!


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> A Breeder is responsible for the dogs they breed,they are not always in a position to take a dog back,there circumstances change also,they are humans the same as the rest of us.
> 
> I.E Breeder gives up breeding,moves house,can't get a job etc....they don't have bottomless pockets,no one can see the future,so to say breeders always have money is a sweeping statement....


Sorry, as this is an oldish thread, but it is something, as a breeder, I feel very strongly about.

If you breed, you take on the responsibility of taking any puppy you have bred back at any time in it's life regardless of your own personal circumstances. In order to breed, you require a certain amount of financial means, (otherwise, how would you pay stud fees. for an emergency ceaserian etc?) so you should have some money available to buy a puppy back.

We have just bought back a 6 month old puppy we bred as the owners circumstances changed and they very kindly thought to contact us when they decided they could no longer keep the pup. The day before they phoned us, we had just picked up a new puppy ourselves, during our move from the south coast of England to Northern Ireland. We do not have a lot of money, and it actually cost us over £500 in fuel for the car and ferry tickets to go and collect her. We also paid to buy her back from them, although luckily they agreed to lower what they wanted for her as we were taking her back and they knew our costs to come and collect her.

None of it was money we had to throw away, but she was our responsibility and I couldn't stand the thought of her possibly ending up in the wrong hands.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

hi dont mean to be rude but 3 litters is plenty ?


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