# Women’s rights



## Elles

I can discuss this as I don't have a job, so I don't care. We do have to be careful with what we say though. Even polite discussion can lead to problems, unless you disagree with what I am about to post. If you do agree with me, please do some research and contact your local MP. There are groups, not just women, but LGBT groups too, who are trying to raise these issues. I believe our rights are being thoroughly eroded by a small number of trans activists, colluding with other (financially and politically) interested parties.

I don't believe that a person can change their actual sex from male to female, or vice-versa. Biology is biology. A woman is an adult human female. Of course there are also transgender people who feel they were born in the wrong body and go through medical and surgical interventions to present as their chosen gender. If we choose this path, we need to be treated with respect and acceptance, but unfortunately we cannot change our sex. Is is what it is.

The latest census permits us to register as our chosen sex. Self ID is being discussed. Should we need a medical certificate and be undergoing medical, and/or surgical transition, or simply be able to decide which we prefer, in order to be treated entirely as our chosen gender and be entitled to access single sex spaces, sports and employment positions as our chosen gender without question, simply by completing a form.

Children are being medically and surgically transitioned rendering them permanently sterile, starting at the age of 12, on their say so. Those involved want to start the process even earlier. A 4000% increase in the number of young girls being referred to gender clinics for reassignment.

We are not permitted to discuss these issues. Saying a man can't really become a woman, or misgendering someone even accidentally, is a hate crime and we can lose our job over it. I'm sure we all know the prisons issues, names such as Karen White. Have you heard of Jessica Yaniv?

This is the latest court case, the lady lost yesterday. 
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lost-job-speaking-out/
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lost-job-speaking-out/

This is the timeline of how we came to this in a very short time.

https://spectator.us/2010s-decade-trans/


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## Cleo38

Elles said:


> I can discuss this as I don't have a job, so I don't care. We do have to be careful with what we say though. Even polite discussion can lead to problems, unless you disagree with what I am about to post. If you do agree with me, please do some research and contact your local MP. There are groups, not just women, but LGBT groups too, who are trying to raise these issues. I believe our rights are being thoroughly eroded by a small number of trans activists, colluding with other (financially and politically) interested parties.
> 
> I don't believe that a person can change their actual sex from male to female, or vice-versa. Biology is biology. A woman is an adult human female. Of course there are also transgender people who feel they were born in the wrong body and go through medical and surgical interventions to present as their chosen gender. If we choose this path, we need to be treated with respect and acceptance, but unfortunately we cannot change our sex. Is is what it is.
> 
> The latest census permits us to register as our chosen sex. Self ID is being discussed. Should we need a medical certificate and be undergoing medical, and/or surgical transition, or simply be able to decide which we prefer, in order to be treated entirely as our chosen gender and be entitled to access single sex spaces, sports and employment positions as our chosen gender without question, simply by completing a form.
> 
> Children are being medically and surgically transitioned rendering them permanently sterile, starting at the age of 12, on their say so. Those involved want to start the process even earlier. A 4000% increase in the number of young girls being referred to gender clinics for reassignment.
> 
> We are not permitted to discuss these issues. Saying a man can't really become a woman, or misgendering someone even accidentally, is a hate crime and we can lose our job over it. I'm sure we all know the prisons issues, names such as Karen White. Have you heard of Jessica Yaniv?
> 
> This is the latest court case, the lady lost yesterday.
> https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lost-job-speaking-out/
> 
> This is the timeline of how we came to this in a very short time.
> 
> https://spectator.us/2010s-decade-trans/


I read this earlier - such scary times we live in now 

There has been many stories posted about Jessica Yaniv that I am appalled at. Am so glad he lost his case regarding the waxing issues but there have been several screen shots of his messages with young, teenage girls that seem very disturbing ….. but as he 'identifies' as being a woman then he should be allowed access to female spaces …. so very wrong!


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## Guest

This is so controversial and it really shouldn't be.
Elgintensity talks a lot about trans in sports, and it just seems daft in my opinion (which means nothing, I know).
Science is science.


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## MilleD

Cleo38 said:


> I read this earlier - such scary times we live in now
> 
> There has been many stories posted about Jessica Yaniv that I am appalled at. Am so glad he lost his case regarding the waxing issues but there have been several screen shots of his messages with young, teenage girls that seem very disturbing ….. but as he 'identifies' as being a woman then he should be allowed access to female spaces …. so very wrong!


Using transgenderism (is that a word?) to get access to the people who should be protected from this sort of thing is incredibly disturbing.

I can't imagine it's doing the case for those who are genuine transgender any favours at all.


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## Cleo38

AsahiGo said:


> This is so controversial and it really shouldn't be.
> Elgintensity talks a lot about trans in sports, and it just seems daft in my opinion (which means nothing, I know).
> Science is science.


No it shouldn't be …. I also don't understand why it is deemed transphobic (by some) to discuss trans issues. Surely debate should always be encouraged so we can understand each other.

I find it deeply worrying that debate is stifled & people (woman mainly) are being silenced by men yet again when they raise concerns.


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## Guest

Yep it should. It's sad as most debates or talks always starts with an " IM NOT TRANSPHOBIC!" disclaimer because people are terrified of being labelled as being discriminatory. 
On the other hand, the constant talks etc has been noted in numerous journals to increase prejudice/discrimination. The whole being forced to accept something can do more harm than good.


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## kimthecat

WTF. It feels the world has gone mad.


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## Cleo38

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/11/mum-locked-seven-hours-referring-trans-woman-man-twitter-8519251/

This woman was arrested for referring to transwoman by her male birth name …… it seems Stephanie Hayden (transwoman) has tried to sue several people (mainly women) for what he considers 'hate crimes' 

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/legal-fund-to-fight-stephanie-hayden
https://gcn.ie/not-transphobic-claims-graham-linehan/


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## Smolmaus

Elles said:


> Children are being medically and surgically transitioned rendering them permanently sterile, starting at the age of 12, on their say so. Those involved want to start the process even earlier. A 4000% increase in the number of young girls being referred to gender clinics for reassignment.
> 
> We are not permitted to discuss these issues. Saying a man can't really become a woman, or misgendering someone even accidentally, is a hate crime and we can lose our job over it. I'm sure we all know the prisons issues, names such as Karen White. Have you heard of Jessica Yaniv?
> 
> This is the latest court case, the lady lost yesterday.
> https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lost-job-speaking-out/
> 
> This is the timeline of how we came to this in a very short time.
> 
> https://spectator.us/2010s-decade-trans/


The judgement came down stated that Maya Forestater's right to free speech was not more important than other's rights not to be harrassed and deliberately misgendered. She's allowed to think and discuss whatever she wants but she's not legally allowed a mandate to hurt people. An accidental misgendering would not be covered by this as her deliberate intent to cause harm was noted in the judgement. Have you actually read it?

Children are never and have never been and will never be surgically transitioned though. That is a scaremongering myth. Puberty blockers do not cause sterility. The only time children are having sex reassignment surgery is actually when they are born intersex and transphobic parents make a unilateral decision for them rather than letting them choose how to live.


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## shadowmare

Cleo38 said:


> https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/11/mum-locked-seven-hours-referring-trans-woman-man-twitter-8519251/
> 
> This woman was arrested for referring to transwoman by her male birth name …… it seems Stephanie Hayden (transwoman) has tried to sue several people (mainly women) for what he considers 'hate crimes'
> 
> https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/legal-fund-to-fight-stephanie-hayden
> https://gcn.ie/not-transphobic-claims-graham-linehan/


"Scottow was accused of a 'campaign of targeted harassment' and of using two Twitter accounts in two different names to harass Hayden."

If someone goes as far as creating fake accounts to double the impact of harassment of one individual, they need to take responsibility. It took me 2 minutes to google and find out that according to Hayden, she initially reported the woman for harassing her online and publishing her private and confidential medical and financial i formation online.


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## Smolmaus

Cleo38 said:


> https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/11/mum-locked-seven-hours-referring-trans-woman-man-twitter-8519251/
> 
> This woman was arrested for referring to transwoman by her male birth name …… it seems Stephanie Hayden (transwoman) has tried to sue several people (mainly women) for what he considers 'hate crimes'
> 
> https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/legal-fund-to-fight-stephanie-hayden
> https://gcn.ie/not-transphobic-claims-graham-linehan/


So you're just gonna casually misgender a person yourself here too? Wow yeah you must be really scared of doing that.


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## MilleD

Smolmaus said:


> So you're just gonna casually misgender a person yourself here too? Wow yeah you must be really scared of doing that.


Probably because they are transphobic right?


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## Smolmaus

MilleD said:


> Probably because they are transphobic right?


If it was accidental I apologise, it would be a highly ironic typo for such a discussion!

But deliberately misgendering someone is transphobic yeah. Textbook really. Lucky that it's so easy not to do.


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## shadowmare

As for the the whole thing of the female researcher claiming "“My belief … is that sex is a biological fact, and is immutable. There are two sexes, male and female. Men and boys are male. Women and girls are female. It is impossible to change sex. These were until very recently understood as basic facts of life by almost everyone." I find that quite weird... she is basically completely ignoring the fact that there's also intersex beings. Intersex people are basically given a choice of what they want to be.


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## MilleD

shadowmare said:


> As for the the whole thing of the female researcher claiming ""My belief … is that sex is a biological fact, and is immutable. There are two sexes, male and female. Men and boys are male. Women and girls are female. It is impossible to change sex. These were until very recently understood as basic facts of life by almost everyone." I find that quite weird... she is basically completely ignoring the fact that there's also intersex beings. Intersex people are basically given a choice of what they want to be.


You do get the point she was trying to make though? Albeit if she ignored the rare occurrences of nature?


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## Smolmaus

MilleD said:


> You do get the point she was trying to make though? Albeit if she ignored the rare occurrences of nature?


The point she was trying to make, as the judge saw it, was that her "belief" gave her the right to harrass people without consequences. Also, whether or not "biological sex" can be changed or not, doesn't mean you can't treat people with basic respect. I don't know what the man beside me's chromosomes are or what his T level is, should I treat him as if he is not or might not be a man? just in case?


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## shadowmare

MilleD said:


> You do get the point she was trying to make though? Albeit if she ignored the rare occurrences of nature?


Actually, statistics shows that intersex population is almost as common as red hair. 
I understand her point. I don't agree with it though.


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## kimthecat

Red haired people get abuse, they get called ginger minger and worse, get beaten up , They should add it to the list of hate crimes.


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## Siskin

kimthecat said:


> Red haired people get abuse, they get called ginger minger and worse, get beaten up , They should add it to the list of hate crimes.


I so agree, before I turned completely white I had red hair, not bright ginger but red enough to get thoroughly teased and bullied about it. I hated my hair colour and when I look back at old photos I now appreciate how beautiful it was but I could never see that.


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## shadowmare

Yes, I agree that there have to be measures put into place to guarantee safety in safe spaces, but to start it with "this human has a penis therefore it suggests high risk danger" is weird. People outraged by the idea of a transwoman in a female prison never cared about male staff members working there. Transmale having to go into a male prison doesn't seem to cause as much concern (as well as gay men being very vulnerable in male prison). 
I don't think there's some sort of movement against discussion of transgender issues. I think it's more to do with the fact that a lot of such discussions involve sharing misinformed beliefs and information from poor quality sources. 
Working with LGBT people every day in various contexts, I have never felt afraid of going to jail because I "misgendered" someone. In fact I've used the wrong pronoun a few times by mistake. We laughed, I apologised, we continued the conversation. It's a different situation where I go out of my way to regularly misgender someone, knowing fully well that I am hurting their feelings. 
My co-worker has lost a lot of weight due to stress. She was always skinny and petite, so now her figure looks more like a 12yo girl than 24yo woman. I joked a couple of times about the fact she has no chest, but I would love to share some of my excess with her. We laughed, moved on. Her manager has mentioned her weight and lack of "boobs" on several occasions, in front of other team members, even after my friend has asked her not to make those comments. The manager has now has a disciplinary for the harassment. If your beliefs and comments expressed openly and directed at another individual, fully knowing that they are uncomfortable with it or find it offensive, then yes, you should be worried for your job. No matter your gender, race, job position or beliefs.


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## shadowmare

kimthecat said:


> Red haired people get abuse, they get called ginger minger and worse, get beaten up , They should add it to the list of hate crimes.


You can report it as harassment. The same as the Twitter case was reported. It was not reported as a hate crime.


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## bearcub

More and more it appears that trans rights stands not so much for advancing equality for trans people but for reducing equality for biological women. Particularly in sport.

What I would like to see is men broadening their definition of what it means to be a man,but I guess fortunately for the male population, they are not as easy a target as women, so this probably won't happen.


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## picaresque

Smolmaus said:


> Children are never and have never been and will never be surgically transitioned though. That is a scaremongering myth. Puberty blockers do not cause sterility.


Puberty blockers aren't benign, for a start. We don't know fully what affect they have on developing bodies and minds, then there's the fact that a child put on puberty blockers is not being given 'time' but is almost inevitably started on the road to full transition. Frankly the whole thing reminds me of the gobblers cutting daemons away in His Dark Materials.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/doubt-cast-puberty-blockers-trial

The oft quoted 'children are never medically transitioned' is a lie. Susie Green of Mermaids took her child to Thailand to have 'bottom surgery' aged sixteen to avoid having to wait two more years in the UK. Jazz Jennings began the path to transition at what, six? and had surgery to create a neo vagina at seventeen. Because of never having gone through male puberty, there wasn't enough penile tissue to use as is the usual method, so parts of her bowel were used. There were complications, and a further surgery was required. In her tv show you can see Jazz in agony going through all this. She had dropped out of college. She will quite possibly never have fully functioning genitalia or experience sexual pleasure. It seems wrong to even bring that up except the whole thing including invasive conversations about such things with her parents and doctors has been broadcast all over the world on tv and online. Who knows, she may have just grown up to be a rather effeminate gay man. Nothing to do with homophobia though, right, all these boys who like princess dresses getting transed.

In other news I see JK Rowling has voiced quite a normal view on biological sex and free speech and is now being cancelled as a confirmed terf. Let the Harry Potter book burning commence.


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## Elles

Smolmaus said:


> The judgement came down stated that Maya Forestater's right to free speech was not more important than other's rights not to be harrassed and deliberately misgendered. She's allowed to think and discuss whatever she wants but she's not legally allowed a mandate to hurt people. An accidental misgendering would not be covered by this as her deliberate intent to cause harm was noted in the judgement. Have you actually read it?
> 
> Children are never and have never been and will never be surgically transitioned though. That is a scaremongering myth. Puberty blockers do not cause sterility. The only time children are having sex reassignment surgery is actually when they are born intersex and transphobic parents make a unilateral decision for them rather than letting them choose how to live.


Yes I have read it, I also read all of her tweets and posts. In them she said that out of courtesy she would use the requested pronouns. More than once. What is considered hate speech is saying that men can't become women. She didn't misgender anyone, the judge said we aren't permitted to, not that she did. If you read it, all of her tweets and posts and discussions are available.

100% of children put on puberty blockers go on to hormones and eventually surgery. They are untested and unapproved for this use. There are young women on YouTube who now regret having double mastectomies and hysterectomies in their teens and have realised that they weren't trans at all. There is some evidence that puberty blockers also affect brain development.

Susie from Mermaids took her son to Thailand for surgery on his 16th birthday. It would be illegal in this country, but they are campaigning for the age to be lowered to 14 for surgery, 10 or even 8 for blockers.

I actually have no problem with your opinion of course, but we should be able to discuss it. 

These are not intersex people. Intersex people have expressed absolute horror at being used for this agenda. We are talking about perfectly healthy people with fully functioning, normal genitalia, not Intersex people.

If we breed puppies or kittens, do we not sex them at birth? They can't change their mind. We are objecting to men, men who often have been men for 50 years, putting on a dress, insisting they are now women and being recognised as such in law. Women are more than a dress and young lesbians should not be told they are boys.

If you consider saying that 'woman is an adult human female' and that people cannot change their biological sex is a hate crime deserving of losing your job, or being arrested, then you would agree with the judgement.

Personally for me if a male presents as a masculine male and is male bodied, I will call him he and him and that should be a discussion I am allowed to have, not lose my job over, so although I don't agree that is what she did, I also don't agree it's a hate crime, or that discussing it should lead to my immediate arrest.


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## picaresque

bearcub said:


> More and more it appears that trans rights stands not so much for advancing equality for trans people but for reducing equality for biological women. Particularly in sport.
> 
> *What I would like to see is men broadening their definition of what it means to be a man,*but I guess fortunately for the male population, they are not as easy a target as women, so thud probably won't happen.


*thumbs up emoji*


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## Cleo38

Smolmaus said:


> If it was accidental I apologise, it would be a highly ironic typo for such a discussion!
> 
> But deliberately misgendering someone is transphobic yeah. Textbook really. Lucky that it's so easy not to do.


Actually it was a typo but do I believe this person is a woman? No, I don't . Do I believe they are a trans-woman? Yes I do. Would I use the pronoun she is I knew this person? Yes I would but can understand why some people don't



shadowmare said:


> Yes, I agree that there have to be measures put into place to guarantee safety in safe spaces, but to start it with *"this human has a penis therefore it suggests high risk danger" *is weird. People outraged by the idea of a transwoman in a female prison never cared about male staff members working there. Transmale having to go into a male prison doesn't seem to cause as much concern (as well as gay men being very vulnerable in male prison).
> I don't think there's some sort of movement against discussion of transgender issues. I think it's more to do with the fact that a lot of such discussions involve sharing misinformed beliefs and information from poor quality sources.
> Working with LGBT people every day in various contexts, I have never felt afraid of going to jail because I "misgendered" someone. In fact I've used the wrong pronoun a few times by mistake. We laughed, I apologised, we continued the conversation. It's a different situation where I go out of my way to regularly misgender someone, knowing fully well that I am hurting their feelings.
> My co-worker has lost a lot of weight due to stress. She was always skinny and petite, so now her figure looks more like a 12yo girl than 24yo woman. I joked a couple of times about the fact she has no chest, but I would love to share some of my excess with her. We laughed, moved on. Her manager has mentioned her weight and lack of "boobs" on several occasions, in front of other team members, even after my friend has asked her not to make those comments. The manager has now has a disciplinary for the harassment. If your beliefs and comments expressed openly and directed at another individual, fully knowing that they are uncomfortable with it or find it offensive, then yes, you should be worried for your job. No matter your gender, race, job position or beliefs.


Why is it weird to suggest men are higher risk to women than other women? They are. Women get angry when men are allowed to enter women's prisons because many inmates are vulnerable women who have suffered abuse at the hands of men. By allowing men in to their space puts them at risk as has been demonstrated in high profile cases recently.

By highlighting the possible risk to gay or trans people in male prisons surely you are demonstrating that men are more dangerous; to women & to each other.


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## Cleo38

JK Rowling has spoken out in support of Maya Forstater …. good on her!!!!! https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...aiPpWiZ6jMPWjH3BRpzyo5xdreYce2Ij-HkczfHx-x3_8


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## picaresque

shadowmare said:


> Yes, I agree that there have to be measures put into place to guarantee safety in safe spaces, but to start it with "this human has a penis therefore it suggests high risk danger" is weird. People outraged by the idea of a transwoman in a female prison never cared about male staff members working there. Transmale having to go into a male prison doesn't seem to cause as much concern (as well as gay men being very vulnerable in male prison).


Show me an example of a transman being put in a male prison. It just wouldn't happen because it would be so obviously unsafe to the individual. But why... it's a mystery... 
Incidentally I don't particularly like the idea of male guards in women's prisons as the opportunity for them to abuse their power is always there. Having said that, it's miles away from actually putting male sex offenders in the female estate. That would be mad, it'd never happen. Oh wait
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ns-prison-moved-hmp-bronzefield-a7640706.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/


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## O2.0

There has to be a way to treat all people with compassion and acceptance, while also protecting the rights of all.

There was a case of a trans woman fighting in the women's division of MMA and just beating up on her opponents. This trans woman had lived and trained as a man for much of her adult life, then goes on to fight women.
That should never have happened.
Bone density, muscle composition and development... It was hugely unfair and frankly unsafe. I don't care that there are weight categories. There is a difference between a 150 pound man and a 150 pound woman.

I haven't followed or heard of either of the cases linked, but again, one person's rights should never remove rights from someone else.

I also think it gets confusing (for lack of a better word) when we talk of trans people. Some trans people were assigned a sex at birth based on outward physical appearance, but it was mistaken or didn't take everything in to account. Not everyone is born fully and completely 'male' or 'female'. There's also chromosome irregularities.
There are more of these people than we realize, and they deserve the same acceptance and support you would give to anyone.

But there are also trans people who are biologically, physically, chromosomally a 'normal' male or female, but don't feel like they are that gender.
I'm all for folks taking on whatever gender (or none) that feels right to them.
But when a biological, physical, and chromosomal male thinks he needs gender reassignment surgery, I wonder how helpful that really is.
If a normal weight person has body dysphoric disorder and sees themselves as obese, would we give them weight loss surgery? Or liposuction? Would that even be ethical?
How different is it when a man or woman wants to have surgery to change their sex? How successful are the surgeries? How dangerous?
I guess I'm just wondering if this is really the kind of support we need to be giving this last group, or is there a better way to help these people feel okay?


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## cheekyscrip

I think you have to be very careful with teenagers.
Some who might think they are trans are gay etc...

To recognise if they do not accept their body or their sexuality is tricky.
Men who became women should not compete in sport as females.
Hang me know.


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## Elles

http://mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/12/18/what-is-dignity/

The first is a video from a young person who had surgery in her teens, including top, bottom and hysterectomy. She YouTubed her transition and had millions of subscribers. No young person should go through this. We should support them and wait. There are many more like her and one is one too many. If she doesn't break your heart, I don't know what will.

Rose of Dawn is a beautiful person, who is happy with her transitions and surgery (MtF)and she advises to wait. Blaire White is well known, she has transitioned, but not bottom surgery as she wants to have children in the future. She also says to wait. A google search will bring them up. Rose I particularly like, her Wednesday videos are brilliant.

The second is a heartfelt post from what we'd call intersex.


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## Elles

O2.0 said:


> There was a case of a trans woman fighting in the women's division of MMA and just beating up on her opponents. This trans woman had lived and trained as a man for much of her adult life, then goes on to fight women.


There are also at least two Thai boxers who are male to female trans women, one has been on hormones and female for over 10 years, who have been fighting and winning in the male category. Nong Rose and Angie petchrungruang.


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## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> I think you have to be very careful with teenagers.
> Some who might think they are trans are gay etc...
> 
> To recognise if they do not accept their body or their sexuality is tricky.
> Men who became women should not compete in sport as females.
> Hang me know.


A school mate started transitioning 'properly' at 18. Half way through, and then MASSIVELY regretted it.
Money put into the mind - side of transitioning would never, ever be wasted.

Unfortunately drugs and operations are profitable


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## kimthecat

shadowmare said:


> You can report it as harassment. The same as the Twitter case was reported. It was not reported as a hate crime.


Waste of time. Its not likely they will do anything.



Cleo38 said:


> JK Rowling has spoken out in support of Maya Forstater …. good on her!!!!! https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...aiPpWiZ6jMPWjH3BRpzyo5xdreYce2Ij-HkczfHx-x3_8


She tweeted and is getting a load of [email protected] but also a lot of support. Very mixed views.


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## Elles

Transphobic? Trans people are being called transphobic for disagreeing with the activists, as are some LGB who have had to set up their own support groups to get away from it. As Blaire White says “Make it make sense”. :Mooning


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## mrs phas

so how do you all feel about Caster Semenya?
_allegedly_ proven more female than male, her whole life she has always presented as female
but
has never released, or even acknowledged, the findings of the intrusive testing she had to undertake by the IAAF, before being allowed to run in the 2012 olympics,
however,
allowing her to compete against females, surely says something about the tests showing where her gender lay
Now, to compete again, she will be forced to take suppressing drugs to be allowed to compete against her OWN gender.
Due to this, she has not confirmed a future as being in athletics
part of her non confirmation, is that ,no one can assure her that taking these suppressants, will not have detrimental effects on her long term health

so, because she wants her private life to be just that, and refuses to become a tabloid sensation, despite being cleared by the IAAF to compete against other women in the Berlin world Cup and the 2012 Olympics, she is castigated because other girls cant beat her
other men couldnt beat Usain Bolt, no one asked him to take suppressants so they had a chance, nor Mo Farrah, nor refused to allow Carl Lewis to compete in three events, winning all three gold medals, multiple times, for goodness sake Hitler didnt even have the brass balls to ban Jesse Owen, from competing in the Berlin games, and we all know Hitlers views

so isnt this a womans problem too, women demanding that another woman runs too fast and they cant beat her, so she must be a man?


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## Guest

Adults' that take steroids to help performance "urgh, obviously something wrong with them, don't you know that thickens heart tissue etc etc"
Eight year old child "here's your hormone blockers that are nearly ten times stronger than most steroids"

Gonna have a big effect. Ftm given almost the same steroids as body builders. All damaging, all needs a lot more regulating, and again, more emphasis should be put into making sure this is not only right for the child, but making sure it's right for the adult that child will become.

Female athletes that compete at high levels in the olympics have been found to have three sex chromosomes (xxy) so female phenotype but extra benefit can be found from a performance pov but aren't aware of it until a test is done... Often accused of taking steroids. They often aren't allowed to retain records as a 'female' yet trans are (in amateur athletics etc). Double standard because people are afraid to call it out as being unfair.

Just thought id throw it in to the mix


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## bearcub

mrs phas said:


> so how do you all feel about Caster Semenya?
> _allegedly_ proven more female than male, her whole life she has always presented as female
> but
> has never released, or even acknowledged, the findings of the intrusive testing she had to undertake by the IAAF, before being allowed to run in the 2012 olympics,
> however,
> allowing her to compete against females, surely says something about the tests showing where her gender lay
> Now, to compete again, she will be forced to take suppressing drugs to be allowed to compete against her OWN gender.
> Due to this, she has not confirmed a future as being in athletics
> part of her non confirmation, is that ,no one can assure her that taking these suppressants, will not have detrimental effects on her long term health
> 
> so, because she wants her private life to be just that, and refuses to become a tabloid sensation, despite being cleared by the IAAF to compete against other women in the Berlin world Cup and the 2012 Olympics, she is castigated because other girls cant beat her
> other men couldnt beat Usain Bolt, no one asked him to take suppressants so they had a chance, nor Mo Farrah, nor refused to allow Carl Lewis to compete in three events, winning all three gold medals, multiple times, for goodness sake Hitler didnt even have the brass balls to ban Jesse Owen, from competing in the Berlin games, and we all know Hitlers views
> 
> so isnt this a womans problem too, women demanding that another woman runs too fast and they cant beat her, so she must be a man?


Caster Semenya is not trans. Her individual circumstances are not relevant in this situation.

As an aside, female athletes should not be shamed for demanding a level playing field.


----------



## Smolmaus

Elles said:


> .
> 
> If we breed puppies or kittens, do we not sex them at birth? They can't change their mind. We are objecting to men, men who often have been men for 50 years, putting on a dress, insisting they are now women and being recognised as such in law. Women are more than a dress and young lesbians should not be told they are boys.


I am more than a dress as a cis woman but I'm also more than my chromosomes (no idea what they are), my estrogen level, the fact I have a vagina or that I have periods. To suggest that my vagina is what makes my whole life experience as a woman valid is insulting and in my mind profoundly anti-feminist. I am a whole person and being a woman is only part of that. There is nothing about any trans woman that prevents her having an experience as a woman that is similar to mine. Given other people aren't constantly harassing her.

Please don't compare human experiences of gender to cats and dogs, its gross. And it doesn't even make sense. We don't see female animals display "male" traits then punish them for it.

The sports thing I would take more seriously if any trans person had ever say, qualified for the Olympics. If there was a huge enough advantage in turning your whole life upside down, making yourself a minority, a minority more likely to be assaulted, murdered, homeless, creating a life time of potential health issues, possibly losing family and friends maybe we'd see more people actually make it to the top echelons of sporting achievement doing that. If it was worth it. It's a complex question, one I dont think any of us are qualified to answer and I also dont think it's relevant for 99% of trans people. It's used as a distraction.

Similarly, people who regret transitioning do of course exist. Its very sad and it's also very sad that they find themselves used as blunt instruments by "gender criticals" to try and stop other people having choices.

Waiting seems like a harmless, safe thing to advocate but unless young people have access to puberty blockers or accepting health care professionals and accepting parents and loved ones who allow at the very least social transition all you're actually doing is withholding treatment. Continuing to let a young person suffer. Using their suffering to punish them for wanting to make a choice you don't agree with. 45% of young trans people attempt suicide. The treatment for dysphoria is transition and if you withold it, people die. Would you rather have a dead child than a trans child?


----------



## Guest

Id rather have a child that is making informed decisions themselves as an adult (because most people don't know who they are at 30,let alone 12) but maybe that's just me.


----------



## Guest

But I agree with you @Smolmaus, and your last post makes totally valid points.
And I'm talking as a straight 'biological' white female so I've faced very, very little discrimination, so yeah, could never understand it in the way you do and won't ever pretend to.
I think the majority (I hope so anyway) support people being people rather than a gender. It's inequality that raises blood pressure, and to rant on about the athletes again, it is absolutely scientifically backed unequal in terms of trans competing.


----------



## kimthecat

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
11h
I am blown away by the support and interest in my case, both in public and private. All I ever wanted on this was for people to be able to talk about the policy questions around sex and gender identity in a normal, open, democratic way.


----------



## picaresque

Smolmaus said:


> I am more than a dress as a cis woman but I'm also more than my chromosomes (no idea what they are), my estrogen level, the fact I have a vagina or that I have periods. To suggest that my vagina is what makes my whole life experience as a woman valid is insulting and in my mind profoundly anti-feminist. I am a whole person and being a woman is only part of that. There is nothing about any trans woman that prevents her having an experience as a woman that is similar to mine. Given other people aren't constantly harassing her.


Women have been oppressed for millennia because of our biology. Because we bleed and bear children (no, not every woman, but only women). I don't understand how any professed feminist can deny this. This is not 'reducing women to their genitalia' as it is so often disingenuously put. It is reality. Women and girls past and present haven't been able to opt out of their oppression by claiming a different gender - if only it were so easy. Baby girls often don't even get the chance to be born just because of their sex. Other times they are abandoned or killed later, because they are considered worthless. Malala Yousafzai - targeted because she was a girl who dared to be educated. The Nigerian schoolgirls kidnapped by Boko Haram - because they were female. Women and girls dying in menstrual huts in the developing world, because of their biology. Epstein's trafficked girls... need I go on.
Women don't have penises. They don't, ever. Everyone knows this, although saying so is considered borderline hate speech now.
I do not accept being referred to as cis - I do not identify as female, I just am. I do not identify with the trappings of femininity, the only thing that makes me female is my biology. Thankfully we are supposed to be living in an enlightened age where people of either sex can do whatever they want without being constrained by gendered roles. This trans stuff is a religion that I do not subscribe to. I don't believe in god either and thankfully in this country I am free to say so. I should also be free to state openly that I don't believe in the gender fairy. Other people can believe what they like as long as they aren't impinging on others' rights. Call yourself cis all day long if you want, I won't.

Here is J. K. 's infamous tweet which underlines exactly how I feel on this issue; please point out the transphobia



> Dress however you please.
> Call yourself whatever you like.
> Sleep with any consenting adult who'll have you.
> Live your best life in peace and security.
> But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?





Smolmaus said:


> If there was a huge enough advantage in turning your whole life upside down, making yourself a minority, a minority more likely to be assaulted, murdered, homeless, creating a life time of potential health issues, possibly losing family and friends maybe we'd see more people actually make it to the top echelons of sporting achievement doing that. If it was worth it. It's a complex question, one I dont think any of us are qualified to answer and I also dont think it's relevant for 99% of trans people. It's used as a distraction.


In the UK, transwomen are more likely to murder than be murdered.
Transwomen who are prostitutes or prostituted face the biggest danger, as that is such a dangerous occupation. The life of a trans person in the favelas of Brazil for example is going to be nothing like the experiences of the average trans person in Western Europe and the Anglosphere where contrary to what some would have you believe they are not the most oppressed minority that ever existed.



Smolmaus said:


> 45% of young trans people attempt suicide. The treatment for dysphoria is transition and if you withold it, people die. Would you rather have a dead child than a trans child?


This is such a manipulative argument that is seen a lot and is also totally irresponsible. Suicide contagion is a recognised phenomenon especially among teens. The media and trans activists always associating being trans with suicide is dangerous. Parents are being terrorised by being led to believe that their child will kill themselves if they don't get what they want. That 45% statistic is also highly dubious.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> so how do you all feel about Caster Semenya?


Completely separate issue. I already linked a heartfelt letter from intersex people who are upset and angry that their situation is being used to promote this agenda. Neither they, nor Caster has anything to do with it and it's terrible that they are being shoved to the forefront in this.

Some people are born without limbs, when someone asks for a limb to be removed and calls themselves transabled, we don't think they're the same. People like Caster have no choice. A trans person can decide whether to take drugs or not, whether to have surgery or not and how far to take it. For them it can depend on how strong their gender dysphoria is, whether they can overcome it by other means and whether they want children. Their feelings are a mismatch, not physical in the same way. They don't have an intersex disorder.

Trans men can't really compete in any sports. They may take testosterone and aren't competitive in men's sports if they are permitted. In order to compete in previous Olympics a trans woman had to have the full surgery. Very few actually do, which makes the numbers of elite trans athletes so small as to be negligible. This will be the first Olympics where simply reducing testosterone levels, to something still higher than biological women, will be the only criteria. This Olympics and the next will go further to show how this is affecting women's sports. Not that elite sports are the only consideration of course.

If you believe that surgically removing your (healthy) reproductive organs and changing your clothes and the toys you play with, or simply declaring your gender without changing anything, completely changes your biological sex, then I expect you to be offended by what I know to be true and by the groups I am a member of. A founder of Stonewall has left and set up an alternative group, the LGBAlliance, to separate themselves from the Trans activists and autogynephiles who have hijacked their cause.

A female is a female, she is not what she wears, nor is she her genitals. A post menopausal woman is still a woman. A man having testes removed due to testicular cancer is still a man. Sex can be determined in thousand year old skeletons. Men and women are simply different and a man can't become a woman, or vice versa. It is imho cruel to tell people and young children that they can. A trans gender woman is a trans gender woman and many are comfortable being so. They don't want to be 'just' a woman, know that they aren't and want their rights to be based on scientific fact, not taken from biological women.

We are mammals, we are not superior to any other mammals, we aren't gods who can change our sex at will and certainly just saying so and holding a piece of paper that says it's so doesn't make it so. That is how some would like it to be.


----------



## bearcub

picaresque said:


> Women have been oppressed for millennia because of our biology. Because we bleed and bear children (no, not every woman, but only women). I don't understand how any professed feminist can deny this. This is not 'reducing women to their genitalia' as it is so often disingenuously put. It is reality. Women and girls past and present haven't been able to opt out of their oppression by claiming a different gender - if only it were so easy. Baby girls often don't even get the chance to be born just because of their sex. Other times they are abandoned or killed later, because they are considered worthless. Malala Yousafzai - targeted because she was a girl who dared to be educated. The Nigerian schoolgirls kidnapped by Boko Haram - because they were female. Women and girls dying in menstrual huts in the developing world, because of their biology. Epstein's trafficked girls... need I go on.
> Women don't have penises. They don't, ever. Everyone knows this, although saying so is considered borderline hate speech now.
> I do not accept being referred to as cis - I do not identify as female, I just am. I do not identify with the trappings of femininity, the only thing that makes me female is my biology. Thankfully we are supposed to be living in an enlightened age where people of either sex can do whatever they want without being constrained by gendered roles. This trans stuff is a religion that I do not subscribe to. I don't believe in god either and thankfully in this country I am free to say so. I should also be free to state openly that I don't believe in the gender fairy. Other people can believe what they like as long as they aren't impinging on others' rights. Call yourself cis all day long if you want, I won't.
> 
> Here is J. K. 's infamous tweet which underlines exactly how I feel on this issue; please point out the transphobia
> 
> In the UK, transwomen are more likely to murder than be murdered.
> Transwomen who are prostitutes or prostituted face the biggest danger, as that is such a dangerous occupation. The life of a trans person in the favelas of Brazil for example is going to be nothing like the experiences of the average trans person in Western Europe and the Anglosphere where contrary to what some would have you believe they are not the most oppressed minority that ever existed.
> 
> This is such a manipulative argument that is seen a lot and is also totally irresponsible. Suicide contagion is a recognised phenomenon especially among teens. The media and trans activists always associating being trans with suicide is dangerous. Parents are being terrorised by being led to believe that their child will kill themselves if they don't get what they want. That 45% statistic is also highly dubious.


This.

It's come to the point where women are losing their livelihoods for saying they don't believe in something.

I can't think of any other situation in a modern, progressive society where this would be acceptable. Trans is becoming a cult.


----------



## Jobeth

My cousin is transgender and part of her family on the other side wouldn’t have anything to do with her afterwards. I can’t say it bothers me in the slightest and don’t understand how family can be so cruel. I may not personally agree with it but it’s none of my business and I’ll be going to her wedding. At the end of the day she is a person with feelings who deserves to be treated with respect.

I read the judgement and it was more than someone that just wanted to have a discussion about being transgender. It reminds me of the channel 4 complaints advert ‘I’m not homophobic but do we have to have gay kissing at lunchtime’ and the vicar being told that his gay partner would now be in hell. Some believe that being gay isn’t right but would soon be dismissed if they harassed others at work about it.


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## Elles

bearcub said:


> This.
> 
> It's come to the point where women are losing their livelihoods for saying they don't believe in something.
> 
> I can't think of any other situation in a modern, progressive society where this would be acceptable. Trans is becoming a cult.


It's not just women too. A (Christian) man lost his job too when presented with a hypothetical scenario of a 6ft 2" masculine, bearded, male presenting, person and he said he'd call him a 'he'.


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## picaresque

Removed, randomly posted quote in error


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## Elles

Jobeth said:


> My cousin is transgender and part of her family on the other side wouldn't have anything to do with her afterwards. I can't say it bothers me in the slightest and don't understand how family can be so cruel. I may not personally agree with it but it's none of my business and I'll be going to her wedding. At the end of the day she is a person with feelings who deserves to be treated with respect.
> 
> I read the judgement and it was more than someone that just wanted to have a discussion about being transgender. It reminds me of the channel 4 complaints advert 'I'm not homophobic but do we have to have gay kissing at lunchtime' and the vicar being told that his gay partner would now be in hell. Some believe that being gay isn't right but would soon be dismissed if they harassed others at work about it.


Did you read what she actually said though? She was discussing it outside of work. Just reading the judgement doesn't really give a true impression of what she was actually saying that they were so offended about. We've said more on this thread.

I have no issue with Trans gender people. Not on tv or movies or in real life. I admire many for sticking up for what they believe to be right and their rights. My best friend in the 80s/90s was a trans woman. I often stayed at her flat and spent most days/evenings hanging out with her. This is quite different. Many LGB and T don't like how this is going, even including a (gay) founder of Stonewall.


----------



## picaresque

Jobeth said:


> It reminds me of the channel 4 complaints advert 'I'm not homophobic but do we have to have gay kissing at lunchtime' and the vicar being told that his gay partner would now be in hell. Some believe that being gay isn't right but would soon be dismissed if they harassed others at work about it.


I don't agree with scepticism of some trans ideology being compared with homophobia, especially when you see how lesbians in particular are being treated by LGBT orgs. Having a sexual orientation is considered bigoted by many woke types now - women who love women are expected to 'overcome' their 'aversion' to men's bodies and accept 'women with penises' as sexual partners. In recent Pride parades women with banners declaring the definition of lesbian have been removed by police! It is honestly like the world has gone mad - how is this acceptable or progressive ffs

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/lesbian-protesters-clash-police-security-16228379

(nicely skewed headline btw WalesOnline)


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## Jobeth

Yes I read her views and I can understand the judgement. It was more than being dismissed for having an opinion and I imagine it would have been the same outcome for other issues.


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## Cleo38

Really great posts @picaresque! I completely agree


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## picaresque

Cleo38 said:


> Really great posts @picaresque! I completely agree


Thank you, appreciate it. Have some virtual terf cookies (the secret ingredient is bigotry)


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## Cleo38

picaresque said:


> Thank you, appreciate it. Have some virtual terf cookies (the secret ingredient is bigotry)


I was chatting a to a friend the other day & introduced her to the wonderful Magdalen Berns. What an amazing woman she was & what a shame about her death earlier this year. Her videos, writings, etc really opened my eyes as to how Women's rights were being taken away & yet again we were being silenced


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## bearcub

Cleo38 said:


> I was chatting a to a friend the other day & introduced her to the wonderful Magdalen Berns. What an amazing woman she was & what a shame about her death earlier this year. Her videos, writings, etc really opened my eyes as to how Women's rights were being taken away & yet again we were being silenced


Magdalen ❤


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## MilleD

picaresque said:


> - women who love women are expected to 'overcome' their 'aversion' to men's bodies and accept 'women with penises' as sexual partners.


WTF??


----------



## picaresque

Cleo38 said:


> I was chatting a to a friend the other day & introduced her to the wonderful Magdalen Berns. What an amazing woman she was & what a shame about her death earlier this year. Her videos, writings, etc really opened my eyes as to how Women's rights were being taken away & yet again we were being silenced


Magdalen was a truly great woman and an inspiration. Very unfair that she died so young but what a legacy. Of course both before and after her death the wokesters who constantly implore us errant women to just shut up be kind were celebrating her terminal diagnosis and saying vile things online.


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## picaresque

MilleD said:


> WTF??


Yup. I'll let the aforementioned Magdalen run this one down


----------



## Jobeth

She wasn’t dismissed for expressing her views whilst at the pub, or in a discussion at work. She was dismissed for launching a sustained twitter campaign and even admits that she changed what she was saying when she didn’t get a reaction. Her employer asked her to stop and then warned her what would happen. Still she continued as she believed that she could do and say what she wanted no matter what. If my cousin had to work alongside someone like that then I’d be appalled. I also find zealots of any type of opinion distasteful.


----------



## Smolmaus

picaresque said:


> *In the UK, transwomen are more likely to murder than be murdered.*
> Transwomen who are prostitutes or prostituted face the biggest danger, as that is such a dangerous occupation. The life of a trans person in the favelas of Brazil for example is going to be nothing like the experiences of the average trans person in Western Europe and the Anglosphere where contrary to what some would have you believe they are not the most oppressed minority that ever existed.
> 
> This is such a manipulative argument that is seen a lot and is also totally irresponsible. Suicide contagion is a recognised phenomenon especially among teens. The media and trans activists always associating being trans with suicide is dangerous. Parents are being terrorised by being led to believe that their child will kill themselves if they don't get what they want. That 45% statistic is also highly dubious.


Cite your sources on this one. This is a wild thing to say. A reliable source please, not a blog.

45% if from here https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/school-report-2017#page=31 from Stonewall. Suicide is the most extreme result of being denied treatment for dysphoria. It would disingenuous not to talk about it. There are good and bad ways to talk about it in the media, yes. Children aren't using threats of suicide to manipulate their parents though, that's an incredibly twisted way to take that. What other high-risk population would be accused of that? Are postnatally depressed women threatening suicide to manipulate? Those with PTSD?



Elles said:


> Did you read what she actually said though? She was discussing it outside of work. Just reading the judgement doesn't really give a true impression of what she was actually saying that they were so offended about. We've said more on this thread.
> .


If she hadn't thrown a hissy fit about not having her contract renewed we wouldn't be talking about it at all. If she hadn't been such an unpleasant person, kept her bigotry to herself, she wouldn't have had any problems in the first place.


----------



## MilleD

picaresque said:


> Yup. I'll let the aforementioned Magdalen run this one down


Riley: "As someone that's both trans and gay..."
Magdalen: "So heterosexual male then?"

She looks really downtrodden in the video like she's sick to the back teeth of arguing the same point.

Sad she has passed. RIP.


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## catz4m8z

It is getting ridiculous isnt it?
I can see both sides though, genetically you can only be one of two sexes however it shouldnt matter to anybody else if you want to be seen as a man or a woman. But if you want the freedom to be accepted as a different gender then you have to accept that other people have the freedom to disagree with you, its part of living in a free country. Obviously bullying and discrimination are something different but just saying 'I dont agree with you' is a right...the same as choosing your gender identification.
Having said that I gots no problem with anybody being anything, you want me to call you a woman, man or an attack helicopter then I'll go with the flow! LOL


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> WTF??


It's true. The toxic branches of trans-activism have a serious problem with lesbians who aren't attracted to and don't want to sleep with trans women (strangely enough 'and vice versa' doesn't seem to apply).

I took the opportunity earlier this year to ask the LGBT rep of our Unison branch (and also a good friend) about all this when the self-derminisation stuff started up in earnest - she is uniquely qualified to comment as her partner is trans. I can't use the exact words she did here (as she is a very straight talking lass!), but one of the things she said was that her partner had been subjected to vicious online abuse for supporting the notion that there should be private spaces for biological women only, and that it was only the tip of the iceberg of the seething toxicity that has been stirred up in Stonewall and other previously relatively moderate groups.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> It's true. The toxic branches of trans-activism have a serious problem with lesbians who aren't attracted to and don't want to sleep with trans men (strangely enough 'and vice versa' doesn't seem to apply).
> 
> I took the opportunity earlier this year to ask the LGBT rep of our Unison branch (and also a good friend) about all this when the self-derminisation stuff started up in earnest - she is uniquely qualified to comment as her partner is trans. I can't use the exact words she did here (as she is a very straight talking lass!), but one of the things she said was that her partner had been subjected to vicious online abuse for supporting the notion that there should be private spaces for biological women only, and that it was only the tip of the iceberg of the seething toxicity that has been stirred up in Stonewall and other previously relatively moderate groups.


It must be incredibly frustrating for some in the LGBT community seeing what they've achieved being dragged backwards.


----------



## Smolmaus

Jesthar said:


> It's true. The toxic branches of trans-activism have a serious problem with lesbians who aren't attracted to and don't want to sleep with trans men (strangely enough 'and vice versa' doesn't seem to apply).


Well a woman being attracted to a man isn't lesbianism so I can see why that would be a problem.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> It's true. The toxic branches of trans-activism have a serious problem with lesbians who aren't attracted to and don't want to sleep with trans men


You mean trans women? Trans women are male to female and may still have male genitalia. Trans men don't tend to make an issue out of it. Riley looks like an effeminate male, is heterosexual (or bi) and has a girlfriend. I don't find him attractive, but I admit to having had a crush on Brian Molko the Placebo lead singer who was quite girlie. Phwoar.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> You mean trans women? Trans women are male to female and may still have male genitalia. Trans men don't tend to make an issue out of it. Riley looks like an effeminate male, is heterosexual (or bi) and has a girlfriend. I don't find him attractive, but I admit to having had a crush on Brian Molko the Placebo lead singer who was quite girlie. Phwoar.
> 
> View attachment 426185


His songs were really sexy too which helped


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> You mean trans women? Trans women are male to female and may still have male genitalia. Trans men don't tend to make an issue out of it.
> 
> View attachment 426185


Probably. I'm running on an average of 4 hours sleep and coffee, so this is not the most straighforward topic for my brain to be dealing with!  Where's the edit button...


----------



## picaresque

Smolmaus said:


> Cite your sources on this one. This is a wild thing to say. A reliable source please, not a blog.


Not sure if these'll pass muster but here are the stats collected by Trans Murder Monitoring which shows that between 2008 and 2016 eight trans people were killed in the UK. Between October 2015 and September 2016 one trans person was murdered
https://transrespect.org/en/research/trans-murder-monitoring/

There were two attempted murders committed by transwomen in Britain in 2016 - those were Lauren Jeska and Jenny Swift. In the same year transwoman Kayleigh Louise Woods and her boyfriend murdered a young woman. Christopher Hunnisett who identifies as female was jailed for murder in 2012. Transwoman Paris Green was convicted of murder in 2013. I honestly can't be arsed posting a news link for each individual but it's simple to fact check this.



Smolmaus said:


> 45% if from here https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/school-report-2017#page=31 from Stonewall. Suicide is the most extreme result of being denied treatment for dysphoria. It would disingenuous not to talk about it. There are good and bad ways to talk about it in the media, yes. Children aren't using threats of suicide to manipulate their parents though, that's an incredibly twisted way to take that. What other high-risk population would be accused of that? Are postnatally depressed women threatening suicide to manipulate? Those with PTSD?


I am not accusing trans kids of manipulating authority figures by threatening suicide, I am more concerned that well meaning adults are causing suicide contagion in these troubled children by using the old 'do you want a trans child or a dead one?' alongside all the irresponsible media reporting - you might want to give this a read btw
https://www.samaritans.org/wales/about-samaritans/media-guidelines/

Gender questioning children, especially the girls who want to be boys very often have a troubled background and a history of abuse, especially sexual abuse. Unfortunately with huge pressure to affirm no matter what, doctors and therapists often can't really properly investigate the underlying psychology behind a young person's desire to change sex and that is very concerning especially from a mental health point of view.

Here is a scientist's look at reported trans suicide stats that gives another view
https://www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> I have no issue with Trans gender people. Not on tv or movies or in real life. I admire many for sticking up for what they believe to be right and their rights. My best friend in the 80s/90s was a trans woman. I often stayed at her flat and spent most days/evenings hanging out with her. This is quite different. Many LGB and T don't like how this is going, even including a (gay) founder of Stonewall.


This post is risible....


> My best friend in the 80/90s was a trans woman


Smacks of
I'm not racist I have a friend who is black...
I'm not homophobic, my brothers friend is gay.....

And you have the gall to say


> my best friend in the 80s/90s was a trans woman


When you've spouted your sickening rhetoric about how your only a woman if you're born that way, in the past however many posts

As for Castor, it IS relevant, she is being FORCED to take drugs, not choosing to, but FORCED, if she wants to carry on competing against her own gender, because her own gender reject the idea that a woman can be so good to beat them in a race, without being physically 'different'

Oh and do get your terms right, even if you don't like it personally, showing your disgust by inserting an "and" in LGBTTQQIAAP+ also disrespects all the people who identify as being covered by the rest of the initialisms that follow
Also stonewall is for gay people (male or female) so their founders would be, they also do not recognise anyone who identifies as bi, as they deem that not to be either, nor do they represent anyone who identifies as anything outside the LG community

Why people feel they have the right to publicly disrespect or show the disgust in other peoples lives, when they are just going about their business, peacefully and quietly, dealing with their own disgender problems ( these people font just get dolled out tablets like sweeties, there's loads of hoops before then, having been an advocate/chaperone, for many at clinics, I know this from experience)
Yes, some are never going to 'pass' as the gender they are meant to be, but they should still be treated with respect and kindness, not hate and disgust. We as a forum get, rightly, angered when our animals are called child killers, disgusting, weird, dangerous etc
Yet, you do the same to someone who is outside your view of 'the norm'
I've read some laughable, cruel, nasty, misinformed posts on this thread, which is why I refrained from getting involved, but seeing as its straying into fantasy land, I felt I had to say something, from the POV of someone who has not only volunteered within the community, but has opened her home as a safe place for more than one transpersonal and had one live here for nearly three years
Why not just educate yourselves instead of repeating Chinese whispers, anti blogs, fb, etc
Or
Just get on with your own lives instead of being 'outraged' over things that happen in a minority, not the majority, of trans peoples lives. We can all find something that is objectional to us, look at all the people who wrote in re two men dancing together on scd, goodness knows what will happen when its two males competing when doi starts
Life should be for living,
not spreading conspiracies


----------



## Cleo38

mrs phas said:


> This post is risible....
> 
> Smacks of
> I'm not racist I have a friend who is black...
> I'm not homophobic, my brothers friend is gay.....
> 
> And you have the gall to say
> 
> When you've spouted your sickening rhetoric about how your only a woman if you're born that way, in the past however many posts
> 
> As for Castor, it IS relevant, she is being FORCED to take drugs, not choosing to, but FORCED, if she wants to carry on competing against her own gender, because her own gender reject the idea that a woman can be so good to beat them in a race, without being physically 'different'
> 
> Oh and do get your terms right, even if you don't like it personally, showing your disgust by inserting an "and" in LGBTTQQIAAP+ also disrespects all the people who identify as being covered by the rest of the initialisms that follow
> Also stonewall is for gay people (male or female) so their founders would be, they also do not recognise anyone who identifies as bi, as they deem that not to be either, nor do they represent anyone who identifies as anything outside the LG community
> 
> Why people feel they have the right to publicly disrespect or show the disgust in other peoples lives, when they are just going about their business, peacefully and quietly, dealing with their own disgender problems ( these people font just get dolled out tablets like sweeties, there's loads of hoops before then, having been an advocate/chaperone, for many at clinics, I know this from experience)
> Yes, some are never going to 'pass' as the gender they are meant to be, but they should still be treated with respect and kindness, not hate and disgust. We as a forum get, rightly, angered when our animals are called child killers, disgusting, weird, dangerous etc
> Yet, you do the same to someone who is outside your view of 'the norm'
> I've read some laughable, cruel, nasty, misinformed posts on this thread, which is why I refrained from getting involved, but seeing as its straying into fantasy land, I felt I had to say something, from the POV of someone who has not only volunteered within the community, but has opened her home as a safe place for more than one transpersonal and had one live here for nearly three years
> Why not just educate yourselves instead of repeating Chinese whispers, anti blogs, fb, etc
> Or
> Just get on with your own lives instead of being 'outraged' over things that happen in a minority, not the majority, of trans peoples lives. We can all find something that is objectional to us, look at all the people who wrote in re two men dancing together on scd, goodness knows what will happen when its two males competing when doi starts
> Life should be for living,
> not spreading conspiracies


So because we are raising concerns & discussing issues that's disrespectful? Why?

We are allowed different opinions. We are allowed to discuss issues. We are allowed to raise our concerns …. why do people like you try to silence these opinions simply because they are different form yours? Why do you consider them offensive simply because they are questioning or disagreeing?

Where has anyone said that trans people are disgusting? Where has there been any hateful comments? I would never condone people to be treated badly but I will voice my concerns if I feel that women's spaces are being taken away, if women are being exposed to men which may make them vulnerable, that doesn't mean I am transphobic … 

I find it worrying that yet again people like you try to stifle any debate. This has caused so many problems in so many areas IMO. We should be encouraged to discuss, to challenge each other but in a non-confrontational way


----------



## MilleD

mrs phas said:


> T
> 
> Oh and do get your terms right, even if you don't like it personally, showing your disgust by inserting an "and" in LGBTTQQIAAP+ also disrespects all the people who identify as being covered by the rest of the initialisms that follow


You really believe that someone not know those millions of initials is 'showing disgust'?


----------



## Elles

Trans women who agree that self ID is dangerous and want to discuss potential issues are also being attacked and called transphobic. 

I am a woman, I should be able to discuss changes in the law that effect me, my grand daughter, my daughter, myself. I volunteered for a women’s refuge, I had family members and friends who had to use them. One fleeing 400 miles with her daughter. We should be able to discuss whether trans people should have access to these very limited spaces, or if they need alternative support and how best to accommodate all people in order for them to feel safe without accusations. We should be able to discuss sports and how the new rules might affect us. We should be able to discuss whether a trans woman is best placed to represent women in politics, or if their very different experiences would be best served by their representing trans people on a separate basis and spots for women’s representatives best kept open for biological women.

However when we are told that biological sex doesn’t exist and trans women are women, these discussions are sledgehammered out of existence.


----------



## Elles

The people who left stonewall, including one of its founders have set up the LGB Alliance for LGB and T people who are on the same page. Although they call it LGB, they also welcome T who are not trans activists. In the context the letters I used and how were correct and respectful.

ETA Actually instead of ranting at me, why not ask why and discuss why you felt I was being disrespectful?


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> As for Castor, it IS relevant, she is being FORCED to take drugs, not choosing to, but FORCED, if she wants to carry on competing against her own gender, because her own gender reject the idea that a woman can be so good to beat them in a race, without being physically 'different'


It is an entirely different issue from whether a person who has gone through male puberty and competed as male, has reduced his testosterone level to one still far higher than that of a biological woman, should be able to compete against women, including in contact sports.

I don't actually agree with Castor being forced to take drugs. She is not transgender and has never been. Currently transgender women are forced to take drugs to compete against women. Her situation is entirely different and currently an isolated incident, that in my opinion has been convoluted by the trans issues and shouldn't have been.


----------



## mrs phas

I have not tried to stifle any debate, but yes when my opinion is diametrically opposed to another's I have the same right to express it
No one has to agree or take notice of it, but, on an open forum, I do have that right
If I wanted to stifle any discussions I would have reported the thread and tried to make a flaming good argument on why it should be removed, not just locked, and who knows, I might have been successful, but, equally, I might not have been
Personally I don't see any rights being trampled on, but, then again I don't ally myself with any activist groups, as, mostly they're far to violent, both physically, and verbally, for my liking. I'd rather help than attack and be mindful that I am not in their position, nor can I understand the depression, humiliation and violence they live with, every day, due to being happy in the gender I was assigned at birth
So, pull your necks in, I've expressed my opinions on the whole thread, I have no wish to participate again, as I find it distasteful and harmful, so do not want to invite such thoughts into my life, again


----------



## kimthecat

@MrsPhas I thought your post was harsh .
" I've read some laughable, cruel, nasty, misinformed posts on this thread, which is why I refrained from getting involved, but seeing as its straying into fantasy land," 
If you feel like that then educate us .


----------



## Vicbloss

Interesting topic and some good posts. It's all a bit of a minefield for me though! So I don't really know how I feel. Interesting though.


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> @MrsPhas I thought your post was harsh .
> " I've read some laughable, cruel, nasty, misinformed posts on this thread, which is why I refrained from getting involved, but seeing as its straying into fantasy land,"
> If you feel like that then educate us .


Spot on @kimthecat !

@mrs phas your initial post contained the following comments:

" … spouted your sickening rhetoric"
"Why people feel they have the right to publicly disrespect or show the disgust in other peoples lives, when they are just going about their business, peacefully and quietly … "
" …. but they should still be treated with respect and kindness, not hate and disgust"
"I've read some laughable, cruel, nasty, misinformed posts on this thread"
"Just get on with your own lives instead of being 'outraged' over things that happen in a minority, not the majority, of trans peoples lives."

I find it odd that you state you are not trying to stifle debate yet still feel we shouldn't discuss this & should just 'go about our business'. There have been recent changes where many women feel their rights are being eroded, their spaces compromised & they are speaking up about it.

It is a shame that you find discussions 'distasteful' & 'harmful' but as I said earlier I feel this seems to be a big problem now & personally I find that worrying. IMO it is this sort of attitude that creates divisions as people feel they can no longer ask questions or challenge their views.


----------



## O2.0

I think part of what makes these conversations so difficult is that there are multiple sub categories and topics that get jumbled up together. 

For one, there are multiple types (sorry if that's not the correct terminology) of transgender people. Not all have had surgery, nor want it. Not all are being treated with hormones, nor want to, etc. 

So then take a sub-topic like level playing field in sports. You then have to separate that topic again depending on the sport. A trans woman punching a cis woman in the face in the boxing ring is an entirely different kettle of fish than a trans woman competing against a cis woman in an ultra-endurance event. 
In one, you're talking potential real damage because of the biological differences between male and female sexes. Whereas in ultra endurance events, women are narrowing the gap in performance between them and men more and more ever day and the biological difference in performance may not be that significant after all. There is a general joke in the running community "no matter how fast you are, there will always be a woman running with a stroller passing you." 
(Now that I think about it, it's an interesting social examination that that's even a joke at all....)

I also worry that about the tendency to take the argument like not wanting a trans woman MMA fighter in the ring with cis women - a very specific circumstance, and expand it to justify generalized discrimination against trans people. That's not okay, and it does happen. Sadly a lot. 
However, it's also not okay to dismiss those legitimate concerns as generalized discrimination when they're not. Just because someone questions the safety of trans women fighting cis women does not mean they're being hateful or discriminatory. 

We all have a right to be heard and concerns addressed.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> I'd rather help than attack and be mindful that I am not in their position, nor can I understand the depression, humiliation and violence they live with, every day,


This goes for women and children in refuges. They are being told they have to accept someone male bodied and presenting as male, regardless of their fears and trauma and no one has asked them. The refuge or crisis centre forced to decide whether they think a trans woman a risk or not on an individual basis. The threat of losing their grants and support if they refuse and blanket ban.

Young women escaping fgm, forced marriage, or honour killing are terrified. A male voice, or bumping into a male stranger in the corridor when going to the loo can cause a traumatised abused child to pee themselves, a woman raped or escaping domestic abuse to sleep fully dressed on a chair. Leaving the house could be really scary. We had to make sure there was no one about and no one followed us, to keep the address secret. They have to come first and be allowed to recover and sleep away from males. Of course we have to accept that in this instance a trans woman is male and I'm really sorry it's necessary, but I do think it is. Even more so if males can self ID with no transition or diagnosis of dysphoria. I also accept that not all women are angels too, but I don't think that's reason enough to not separate the sexes, where simply being in the presence of a male is trauma and safe spaces for trans women could be provided separately.

I am sorry that disagreeing with your views means I am a nasty person. There need to be spaces where all can feel safe and sometimes that means separating the sexes and accepting our differences imho. And I think the views of all who can be affected by changes in the law need to be heard.


----------



## lymorelynn

I have been following this thread and would like to remind everyone that differing opinions are fine but personal attacks against another member for their opinions wiil not be tolerated and will get this thread closed.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> This goes for women and children in refuges. They are being told they have to accept someone male bodied and presenting as male, regardless of their fears and trauma and no one has asked them. The refuge or crisis centre forced to decide whether they think a trans woman a risk or not on an individual basis. The threat of losing their grants and support if they refuse and blanket ban.
> 
> Young women escaping fgm, forced marriage, or honour killing are terrified. A male voice, or bumping into a male stranger in the corridor when going to the loo can cause a traumatised abused child to pee themselves, a woman raped or escaping domestic abuse to sleep fully dressed on a chair. Leaving the house could be really scary. We had to make sure there was no one about and no one followed us, to keep the address secret. They have to come first and be allowed to recover and sleep away from males. Of course we have to accept that in this instance a trans woman is male and I'm really sorry it's necessary, but I do think it is. Even more so if males can self ID with no transition or diagnosis of dysphoria. I also accept that not all women are angels too, but I don't think that's reason enough to not separate the sexes, where simply being in the presence of a male is trauma and safe spaces for trans women could be provided separately.
> 
> I am sorry that disagreeing with your views means I am a nasty person. There need to be spaces where all can feel safe and sometimes that means separating the sexes and accepting our differences imho. And I think the views of all who can be affected by changes in the law need to be heard.


Agree. I have read of several refuges where government funding has been denied because they do not want to accept trans women. Whilst I accept that trans women may still be victims of many forms of violence & require a safe space I still believe that women only refuges are needed especially as the idea that people can 'self identify'' is still trying to be pushed through by some groups. How can women feel safe if men can be given shelter purely on their say so that they 'identify'' as being a woman?


----------



## mrs phas

Where would you like trans women to go then?
There is a high incidence of physical and mental abuse towards trans women, similar to what gay men used to be faced with, and, in some cases still are
Do you want to bring in some form of segregation, or put abused trans women in a male hostel (I think there is one male hostel in the whole of England) or in male prisons (I'm talking about real trans women here, not those who use it as an excuse to get more victims) should they have buildings labelled "trans only"
Or
Should we be putting up notices, as in years gone past?
Trans at the back of the bus only
No Irish, No blacks, no trans
No trans allowed in the swimming pool
Etc, etc

Should we mark them all with a T on the forehead, so that even those that do pass can be easily recognised?

Should we put them through indoctrination at anti trans camps?

As for toilets how any of you would cope living on the continent, where they still have pissoirs in the town squares and mixed gender toilets and NO ONE gets raped or abused, I don't know

I can honestly say, I never realised that, in the 21st century, women had become such fragile flowers, whatever happened to strong women who fight for equal pay, equal jobs, equal rights?

And none has mentioned trans men? They are possibly more danger to women than trans women, yet you'd be happy to have them in women's hostels, homes,toilets etc or do you side with the fact that even though they self identify as male, really and truly they are women, so can only be victims, not perpetrators?
BTW fgm is forced upon children by their female peers, men do not get involved, because, in cultures that still practice it, a girl/woman is 'unclean' until they have undergone fgm


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> @MrsPhas I thought your post was harsh .
> " I've read some laughable, cruel, nasty, misinformed posts on this thread, which is why I refrained from getting involved, but seeing as its straying into fantasy land,"
> If you feel like that then educate us .


One cannot educate those with closed minds
One first has go be open to the idea that trans women are just a part of society, and, if they don't scare the horses, why should we be scared
Its a bit like those (not saying anyone here) who cannot accept that there's a difference between Muslims and terrorists, or those that cannot tell the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim, to those people, they're all just "********"
They don't want to learn because then they might have to accept

Again not inferring this at any person on this thread


----------



## Jesthar

mrs phas said:


> Where would you like trans women to go then?
> There is a high incidence of physical and mental abuse towards trans women, similar to what gay men used to be faced with, and, in some cases still are
> Do you want to bring in some form of segregation, or put abused trans women in a male hostel (I think there is one male hostel in the whole of England) or in male prisons (I'm talking about real trans women here, not those who use it as an excuse to get more victims) should they have buildings labelled "trans only"
> Or
> Should we be putting up notices, as in years gone past?
> Trans at the back of the bus only
> No Irish, No blacks, no trans
> No trans allowed in the swimming pool
> Etc, etc
> 
> Should we mark them all with a T on the forehead, so that even those that do pass can be easily recognised?
> 
> Should we put them through indoctrination at anti trans camps?
> 
> As for toilets how any of you would cope living on the continent, where they still have pissoirs in the town squares and mixed gender toilets and NO ONE gets raped or abused, I don't know
> 
> I can honestly say, I never realised that, in the 21st century, women had become such fragile flowers, whatever happened to strong women who fight for equal pay, equal jobs, equal rights?
> 
> And none has mentioned trans men? They are possibly more danger to women than trans women, yet you'd be happy to have them in women's hostels, homes,toilets etc or do you side with the fact that even though they self identify as male, really and truly they are women, so can only be victims, not perpetrators?
> BTW fgm is forced upon children by their female peers, men do not get involved, because, in cultures that still practice it, a girl/woman is 'unclean' until they have undergone fgm


No-one is saying trans people shouldn't have rights or anything like that - quite the opposite, in fact. The problem lies in ensuring that non-trans women, and particularly the vulnerable ones, don't lose out on _their_ rights as a result, particularly if self-declaration becomes reality.


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> Where would you like trans women to go then?


This is the sort of thing that needs to be addressed. 
How can we create safe places for trans women who need shelter while at the same time respecting the needs of cis women who need shelter. Can we not do both? Why does one's rights have to trample on another's? Surely we're smart enough to come up with a workable solution that respects the needs of all?

Having this type of discussion, or simply questioning if trans women should be in the same shelter as cis women does not equate to women being 'fragile flowers.' It simply means that we need to be able to discuss these things without judgement so that we *can* come up with workable solutions.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> Where would you like trans women to go then?


I would like governments and charities to provide safe spaces, support and specialist medical help and therapy for trans women, where they can also find help and support from other trans women who understand their fear and distress. I would like to see trans women campaigning for this alongside their LGBTQI++ community. I don't know how often an abused trans woman has to escape with children, that would also need to be taken into account.

I would ask trans men, they have been pretty quiet on these issues. It would be a case of listening to them and their needs and discussing how best to meet them, without causing further trauma to them, or to others. Most trans men live with women as partners, so I'm not sure how it would work if there were domestic abuse, or if they often need secret spaces to recover and escape an abusive marriage, family or partnership.

Not forgetting that many women who escape to refuges, don't stay in their home area, they move across the country. As I said, I know of at least one woman who travelled 400 miles. I know. I drove 400 miles each way to collect her. So it's not necessarily a case of having spaces in every town and city. There needs to be research funded, not this mess.

Surely we can afford to provide them with the help and specialist care they might need?

I suddenly had a deja vu. I remember fighting for women back in the day and saying a lot of the same things.


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> One cannot educate those with closed minds
> 
> Again not inferring this at any person on this thread


I said why dont you educate *us* and you say One cannot educate those with closed minds . so yes you are referring to people on this thread and its a huge assumption to make .

This type of sledgehammering happens on social media and it is scary . All that happens is that people shut down.


----------



## Cleo38

mrs phas said:


> Where would you like trans women to go then?
> There is a high incidence of physical and mental abuse towards trans women, similar to what gay men used to be faced with, and, in some cases still are
> Do you want to bring in some form of segregation, or put abused trans women in a male hostel (I think there is one male hostel in the whole of England) or in male prisons (I'm talking about real trans women here, not those who use it as an excuse to get more victims) should they have buildings labelled "trans only"
> Or
> Should we be putting up notices, as in years gone past?
> Trans at the back of the bus only
> No Irish, No blacks, no trans
> No trans allowed in the swimming pool
> Etc, etc
> 
> Should we mark them all with a T on the forehead, so that even those that do pass can be easily recognised?
> 
> Should we put them through indoctrination at anti trans camps?
> 
> As for toilets how any of you would cope living on the continent, where they still have pissoirs in the town squares and mixed gender toilets and NO ONE gets raped or abused, I don't know
> 
> I can honestly say, I never realised that, in the 21st century, women had become such fragile flowers, whatever happened to strong women who fight for equal pay, equal jobs, equal rights?
> 
> And none has mentioned trans men? They are possibly more danger to women than trans women, yet you'd be happy to have them in women's hostels, homes,toilets etc or do you side with the fact that even though they self identify as male, really and truly they are women, so can only be victims, not perpetrators?
> BTW fgm is forced upon children by their female peers, men do not get involved, because, in cultures that still practice it, a girl/woman is 'unclean' until they have undergone fgm


But women are being attacked in previously women only spaces …. there are plenty of instances of this happening. http://transcrimeuk.com/2019-convictions/

Why do you think people are concerned? There are instances of this happening & it is a worry. Why would trans men be a threat to women? Where is the evidence to suggest this?

FGM is whole different argument & I honestly can't see the relevance of this when discussing trans women


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> I can honestly say, I never realised that, in the 21st century, women had become such fragile flowers, whatever happened to strong women who fight for equal pay, equal jobs, equal rights?


 The women in refuges who have been beaten and threaten by men are as terrified of men as they were all those years ago . I think they have the right to say what happens in womens refuges.


----------



## picaresque

Oh the cry of 'educate yourself!'
I _have _educated myself. Prior to that I would have parroted 'trans women are women' with the best of them (although if I'm honest I didn't really believe it).
Trans people deserve to be treated with respect and protected from discrimination. I have always believed that and still do, it's not asking much, however I should not be compelled to lie about there being such a thing as a female penis. Until quite recently it was accepted that transsexuals as they were known suffered from dysphoria and sought medical transition to alleviate it. Then they got on with their lives as best they could. They knew they couldn't change sex but they lived socially as the opposite gender. They did face terrible discrimination and I'm not pretending they don't still although it has lessened in this part of the world at least. Did you know @mrs phas that the modern transgender activist labels these individuals as 'truscum', because they maintain that dysphoria is a requirement of being trans? There are transwomen who are standing up for women's rights and boundaries who are being pilloried by these activists who claim to be on the right side of history.


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> FGM is whole different argument & I honestly can't see the relevance of this when discussing trans women


That's my fault. Women taking their daughters to escape fgm, or fleeing from honour killing or forced marriage are usually from communities where they are oppressed and seeing a naked male body, or thinking a male might see them is frightening to them. They are sometimes afraid that male family members will lie to get access to them and kidnap them and no one will be able to stop them.

I understand that women are convinced that their daughters or granddaughters might not find a man, so inflict fgm themselves. Everything behind it is horrible. It's not just so that they are 'clean', it's also to keep them virgin and stop them being raped according to some reports. They believe they are saving, not harming them.  I was more trying to get across the whole atmosphere of fear and why women need these spaces.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> I suddenly had a deja vu. I remember fighting for women back in the day and saying a lot of the same things.


And I in 1994 and 2000
When the homosexual age limit was reduced to 18 and then 16

It was the same fears rearing their ugly heads then, because, of course, all homosexuals were predators, out to convert or abuse our children, wanted to have sex with every man out there (many should've been so lucky) and totally wanton with list
Unfortunately for some, being homosexual, means their lives are behind facades of what many call normality, still closeted, in marriages where they can hide their 'aberrant behaviour' and for many, to scared to 'come out', to depressed in living a lie and they end it all
Things do change, albeit slowly, and I'm sure in 10 or so years, people will look back and wonder what it was about self identifying as trans ( m2f or f2m) that scared and worried people so
After all gay, lesbian and bi, all self identify and it worries, most people, not a jot
Androgynous, pansexual and asexual all self identify
As do others encompassed by the acronym,
Yet no one bats an eyelid
People are people, whether they be furries, masochistic, sadist, adult nappy wearer ( now there's one I don't understand, but each to their own) enjoy pony play, being leashed in public like a dog, goths, dress and act like vikings, Miladys or knights there's a plethora of games and fetishes, let's face it, if there's not one you (royal you) like, then your brain will dream it up
We dont have to like what they do, or why they do it, but respect and kindness should still be given to all, freely and without judgement

I notice many posters are referring to 'self identifying' transgender, does that mean you'd be happy to accept someone who has a GRC, but not had the full tuck and tie yet into female wards, prisons, hostels, toilets etc? I ask because a Gender Recognition Certificate is proof for all and has to be accepted as such, in law, but its no longer not cessary to be 'fully formed' to get one


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> The women in refuges who have been beaten and threaten by men are as terrified of men as they were all those years ago . I think they have the right to say what happens in womens refuges.


No, not quite right
Some are lesbians or daughters whose partners or parent (male or female) have been physically or mental abusive to them
Not all women in refuges are heterosexual ,or in a friendship where a man is the abuser


----------



## Elles

No I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t accept a transgender woman into any single sex spaces reserved for women and I would expect them to respect this and fight for spaces where we can all get along.

Today the atmosphere is so different. 

I don’t care what consenting adults do. That’s completely separate from wanting vulnerable women to have single sex spaces and transgender women, whether self declared, or fully transitioned safe spaces for them too. Men are forgotten in this. They too suffer can suffer abuse, as can disabled people. That doesn’t mean they should be given spots in women’s refuges, sports teams and other single sex environments imho.


----------



## Guest

Ohhh @Elles, what have you done you antagonist 

This thread is good, I'm learning loads.


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## mrs phas

@Elles

I quite agree that men suffer abuse
And
The disabled, especially those with any form of dementia or sen
I get very annoyed when being in an abusive relationship is made out to be solely a woman's problem and no one acknowledges that women can be the abuser 
And that the disabled are especially vulnerable, be they male, female or transgender

On this we sing from the same hymn book


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> No, not quite right
> Some are lesbians or daughters whose partners or parent (male or female) have been physically or mental abusive to them
> Not all women in refuges are heterosexual ,or in a friendship where a man is the abuser


Which I already pointed out. Women hit women too is no reason to allow transgender women into women's single sex spaces, any more than it's an excuse to let none trans males in. Refuges are set up and accustomed to dealing with women, whether they are lesbian or not. Women want these single sex spaces, why should their fears and distress be ignored?

We really do need to set up spaces for trans, where they can live and be supported by other trans who understand their very different experiences and traumas and not just expect women to capitulate and put and shut up like they so often do. 

Unless you are fighting for all single sex spaces and sports to be abolished? Unfortunately to me that is denying my reality. The reality that men and women are different. I personally don't see it at all the same as apartheid, but if a person does, I can understand that my arguments are from a different place and will have to agree to differ, which would actually be quite a relief.


----------



## mrs phas

@picaresque 
Transexuals are men/women who dress for sexual gratification
Transgender are men/women who have a recognised gender dismorphya

Such is, and ever has been, the case
That is why there are two Ts in the lgbttq+ acronym
As for activists ... Well this is precisely why I won't get involved in any activism anymore, not for the climate, not for the planet, not for anything
I do my bit, peacefully and mindfully, doing what I can leaves me in a calm and peaceful place and the world continues to turn, without me hurting anyone, physically or mentally, at all


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> @picaresque
> Transexuals are men/women who dress for sexual gratification
> Transgender are men/women who have a recognised gender dismorphya
> 
> Such is, and ever has been, the case
> That is why there are two Ts in the lgbttq+ acronym
> As for activists ... Well this is precisely why I won't get involved in any activism anymore, not for the climate, not for the planet, not for anything
> I do my bit, peacefully and mindfully, doing what I can leaves me in a calm and peaceful place and the world continues to turn, without me hurting anyone, physically or mentally, at all


That's not true. Transsexuals were the people with gender dysphoria (though it was called something else), transvestites were cross dressers who get gratification from wearing women's clothes, they are now called gynosomething I typed it earlier in the thread, but my minds gone blank. Transgender is relatively new.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Unless you are fighting for all single sex spaces and sports to be abolished? Unfortunately to me that is denying my reality. The reality that men and women are different. I personally don't see it at all the same as apartheid, but if a person does, I can understand that my arguments are from a different place and will have to agree to differ, which would actually be quite a relief.


Of course I'm not
I was merely replying to kimthecats post, nothing else
Like you I live in the real world, where men and women are different, some are better at things than others
For goodness sake, when I did catering at college I could only be called a cook, not a chef, because I was a woman, I had to accept that then, although no young woman of today would
There are plenty of sports where men would have an advantage, although I don't see why darts or snooker should be segregated, and there are jobs where men are needed for their overall strength, provided by testosterone, which, naturally, as women, we have much lower doses of.
Do I see it as a form of apartheid?
That's difficult
Women are happy to accept male nurses and midwives, times when they are at, possibly, their most raw and vulnerable selves
Would you accept a transperson? If you'd accept a male nurse/midwife or a female one
Then,
Yes it is a form of apartheid
Discrimination through their difference and your fear
Would you not go to the toilet on holiday because they're mixed gender,
Then no
You are not discriminating, you are exercising your right to choose not to pee in public and you would find a single sex toilet
Not apartheid, your not singling out one group of people
Would you refuse a trans teacher for your child, but accept a male or female whether hetero or gay lesbian?
If you accept that the male or female teachers sexuality is nothing to do with their ability as a teacher
Then
Yes apartheid as a gain singling someone out on their difference and your prejudice

These are my thoughts anyway

Edit to say when I say your, I don't mean your personally, I'm talking metaphorically using the term your to encompass all


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> That's not true. Transsexuals were the people with gender dysphoria (though it was called something else), transvestites were cross dressers who get gratification from wearing women's clothes, they are now called gynosomething I typed it earlier in the thread, but my minds gone blank. Transgender is relatively new.


I bow to you experience on being 'up with the terms'
Its taken me ages to swap ASD to ASC, so I'm sure I'll make this mistake more in the future


----------



## Guest

I'm probably MASSIVELY misinterpreting this thread, but to me what the posters are saying is they have no problems at all with trans(whatever), and actively support people being able to do wtf they like, providing it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. I think the gripe is that to provide equality for the trans community, distress and upset is being caused for some women and the ones with a voice are being called bigots and phobics.

Nobodies opinion is right or wrong, and getting all 'pc bruuuuh' about is is going to make people either double down or silence them. Which just isn't right is it.


----------



## mrs phas

AsahiGo said:


> I'm probably MASSIVELY misinterpreting this thread, but to me what the posters are saying is they have no problems at all with trans(whatever), and actively support people being able to do wtf they like, providing it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. I think the gripe is that to provide equality for the trans community, distress and upset is being caused for some women and the ones with a voice are being called bigots and phobics.
> 
> Nobodies opinion is right or wrong, and getting all 'pc bruuuuh' about is is going to make people either double down or silence them. Which just isn't right is it.


Where are the reps when you need one!
The only things others and I disagree on, is where trans people should be placed in the world
And
When/if they should ever be acknowledged as their preferred gender and treated as such
And that's what makes a debate!


----------



## Guest

I'm glad this thread is about, it's something that I hadn't thought of before


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> It's not just women too. A (Christian) man lost his job too when presented with a hypothetical scenario of a 6ft 2" masculine, bearded, male presenting, person and he said he'd call him a 'he'.


Any links to articles about this? Would be interesting to read the actual story.


----------



## shadowmare

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/school-report-2017

Had a chance to read this and other reports for my masters a few weeks ago. Very interesting.


----------



## Elles

Didn’t I see a woman winning a darts championship on tv yesterday?

My sport is mixed. Well I don’t compete any more, but when I did. Equestrian sports.

Yeah I’d find a single sex toilet and dress in a cubicle. I wouldn’t go into a mixed changing room, or where male bodied people were trying on bras. It’s not nice. I prefer no mirrors too. Where do they get the lighting for changing rooms? :Bag

I did however go dress shopping in Amsterdam with my Dutch trans friend, who was over 6ft and embarrassed to go by himself (he called himself he). I’d forgotten that lol. All Dutch people are over 6ft of course. 

I wouldn’t be bothered about a trans teacher. I would be concerned about a confused one who was trying to put his ideology onto them when they’re too young imho to understand. I like Jigsaw, I don’t like what I read on some schools websites. I don’t like mermaids. I don’t care what consenting adults do, keep it to yourself. What I like is none of your business and vice versa.

I do worry a lot about what’s happening with young girls in particular. It frightens me and I think we are heading down a very dangerous path. I don’t like not being able to discuss it.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> I bow to you experience on being 'up with the terms'
> Its taken me ages to swap ASD to ASC, so I'm sure I'll make this mistake more in the future


Rose of Dawn calls herself transsexual. She would be mortified if people thought that meant she wore women's clothes for excitement I think. She's fully transitioned.


----------



## Jonescat

shadowmare said:


> Any links to articles about this? Would be interesting to read the actual story.


I assume it is this one
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-49904997

Context is all


----------



## Elles

Jonescat said:


> I assume it is this one
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-49904997
> 
> Context is all


Yeah that one. I'm trying to be fair and include men. I think he's an a***. :Hilarious


----------



## picaresque

mrs phas said:


> @picaresque
> Transexuals are men/women who dress for sexual gratification
> Transgender are men/women who have a recognised gender dismorphya
> 
> Such is, and ever has been, the case
> That is why there are two Ts in the lgbttq+ acronym


I think we've had this conversation before - you're thinking of transvestites.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Didn't I see a woman winning a darts championship on tv yesterday?
> 
> My sport is mixed. Well I don't compete any more, but when I did. Equestrian sports.
> 
> Yeah I'd find a single sex toilet and dress in a cubicle. I wouldn't go into a mixed changing room, or where male bodied people were trying on bras. It's not nice. I prefer no mirrors too. Where do they get the lighting for changing rooms? :Bag
> 
> I did however go dress shopping in Amsterdam with my Dutch trans friend, who was over 6ft and embarrassed to go by himself (he called himself he). I'd forgotten that lol. All Dutch people are over 6ft of course.
> 
> I wouldn't be bothered about a trans teacher. I would be concerned about a confused one who was trying to put his ideology onto them when they're too young imho to understand. I like Jigsaw, I don't like what I read on some schools websites. I don't like mermaids. I don't care what consenting adults do, keep it to yourself. What I like is none of your business and vice versa.
> 
> I do worry a lot about what's happening with young girls in particular. It frightens me and I think we are heading down a very dangerous path. I don't like not being able to discuss it.


(sort of not the point) when you said about the teacher confused etc - idk if anyone watches South Park, but that reminded me of the teacher in that 
Anyway
I wouldn't be happy with any ideology of any kind being pushed on kids BUT free thinking and talking about stuff like this should be positively encouraged. That's what I think anyway


----------



## Elles

AsahiGo said:


> (sort of not the point) when you said about the teacher confused etc - idk if anyone watches South Park, but that reminded me of the teacher in that
> Anyway
> I wouldn't be happy with any ideology of any kind being pushed on kids BUT free thinking and talking about stuff like this should be positively encouraged. That's what I think anyway


if you look up Jigsaw and their information booklet for parents, I think I fully supported their advice. I'm not sure all schools are following it though.


----------



## shadowmare

Jonescat said:


> I assume it is this one
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-49904997
> 
> Context is all


Explains it all.

A few members have said on here that they would continue to call a trans woman a "him" because that's what they believe. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to purposefully offend someone? At the very basic level it's just rudeness. If Richard doesn't like being called Dick and prefers his full name, why would I have the "right" to call him Dick?


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> Explains it all.
> 
> A few members have said on here that they would continue to call a trans woman a "him" because that's what they believe. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to purposefully offend someone? At the very basic level it's just rudeness. If Richard doesn't like being called Dick and prefers his full name, why would I have the "right" to call him Dick?


True, haven't there been cases where someone has accidentally/force of habit called someone by their former pronouns and all hell has broke loose? Over a mistake? How do you identify a genuine accident or a snide remark?

When I did work, a person I was speaking to looked very androgynous and i was TERRIFIED of saying the wrong thing as it would realistically cost me my job.

If it was ok to ask upfront 'how would you like to be known?' That would be great for eejits like me!

One guy asked me (in regards to my daughter) -" handsome girl or pretty boy?" kiddo thought it was great.

I'll l



Elles said:


> if you look up Jigsaw and their information booklet for parents, I think I fully supported their advice. I'm not sure all schools are following it though.


I'll look ay this. Tbh I'm not up to date with school things as my kids don't go!


----------



## bearcub

shadowmare said:


> Explains it all.
> 
> A few members have said on here that they would continue to call a trans woman a "him" because that's what they believe. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to purposefully offend someone? At the very basic level it's just rudeness. If Richard doesn't like being called Dick and prefers his full name, why would I have the "right" to call him Dick?


I doubt there is anyone on this thread who would use the wrong pronoun to someone's face on purpose, if they knew it would cause that person distress. That's just unkind.

However, I reserve the right to describe a biological male as a he and a biological female as a she as these pronouns refer to their sex.


----------



## mrs phas

picaresque said:


> I think we've had this conversation before - you're thinking of transvestites.


And for which I apologised above


----------



## Elles

shadowmare said:


> Explains it all.
> 
> A few members have said on here that they would continue to call a trans woman a "him" because that's what they believe. I don't get it. Why would anyone want to purposefully offend someone? At the very basic level it's just rudeness. If Richard doesn't like being called Dick and prefers his full name, why would I have the "right" to call him Dick?


I think generally he / him or whatever, is when you're talking about, not to someone. I decide when I'm talking about someone. Most of the time I wouldn't have a clue what they want me to refer to them as and if I'm talking about a tall, masculine male with a beard, I'd likely call him him without even thinking about it. If I was talking to someone who was being horrible to me and telling me I should stfu I'd probably call them a lot worse than their chosen pronouns.  I'm very unlikely to talk to an activist who tries to control my speech.

If someone clearly presents or tries to present as female I would probably call them she/her, again without really thinking about it. I wouldn't like someone trying to control what I say and waiting to catch me out. If I meet a dozen new people at once, how an I supposed to remember when there are so many pronouns today. I can barely remember who I am, let alone a dozen others. They'll just have to accept what comes naturally, or ignore me.

I think some are too easily offended sometimes and no one should lose their job over it, unless it's part of their job, or they're obviously bullying someone and it's part of it. 

Maybe I'm just old and kids will accept it as part of their language. I'm trying to learn Spanish, that'll do me for now.


----------



## mrs phas

AsahiGo said:


> True, haven't there been cases where someone has accidentally/force of habit called someone by their former pronouns and all hell broke loose over a mistake


If there's one thing for certain in this life
Its that someone will find offence in something
Especially where none was ever meant or inferred


----------



## shadowmare

AsahiGo said:


> True, haven't there been cases where someone has accidentally/force of habit called someone by their former pronouns and all hell has broke loose? Over a mistake? How do you identify a genuine accident or a snide remark?
> 
> When I did work, a person I was speaking to looked very androgynous and i was TERRIFIED of saying the wrong thing as it would realistically cost me my job.
> 
> If it was ok to ask upfront 'how would you like to be known?' That would be great for eejits like me!
> 
> One guy asked me (in regards to my daughter) -" handsome girl or pretty boy?" kiddo thought it was great.
> 
> I'll l
> 
> I'll look ay this. Tbh I'm not up to date with school things as my kids don't go!


If anyone has a decent source reporting cases of people being sued or losing jobs over accidentally calling someone by the wrong pronoun due to force of habit or similar, I'm keen to hear these stories. As long as the source is trustworthy and not the daily mail and similar, with half the context missing.

it is absolutely fine to ask people how they would prefer to be called. If I work with a young person who has expressed concerns or their feelings related to sexuality, or gender that is the first thing I do when I first meet them.


----------



## shadowmare

mrs phas said:


> If there's one thing for certain in this life
> Its that someone will find offence in something
> Especially where none was ever meant or inferred


But taking offence and blowing it out of proportion to taking legal steps etc is a different thing. People on the thread are not discussing being worried about offending someone's feelings. It's a fear of trans gender people going on some weird power trip suing everyone right and left if they make a mistake and use the wrong pronoun (which so far there has been no supporting cases provided in this thread).


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> If anyone has a decent source reporting cases of people being sued or losing jobs over accidentally calling someone by the wrong pronoun due to force of habit or similar, I'm keen to hear these stories. As long as the source is trustworthy and not the daily mail and similar, with half the context missing.
> 
> it is absolutely fine to ask people how they would prefer to be called. If I work with a young person who has expressed concerns or their feelings related to sexuality, or gender that is the first thing I do when I first meet them.


The story I had in mind I cant reference as it happened years ago with a relative. Her colleague transitioned from mtf and had been working in the department for decades. Had a tonne of time off came back as a woman. None of the employers were told;it was a lot of a shock. Another employee referred to her as her former name by accident and was called in for a disciplinary.
Of course this is word of mouth. Other cases I've heard on elgintensity but it's mainly in the sporting world (and his shows probably aren't best viewed if you're on the sensitive p.c side)


----------



## Elles

shadowmare said:


> But taking offence and blowing it out of proportion to taking legal steps etc is a different thing. People on the thread are not discussing being worried about offending someone's feelings. It's a fear of trans gender people going on some weird power trip suing everyone right and left if they make a mistake and use the wrong pronoun (which so far there has been no supporting cases provided in this thread).


Maybe it's people being banned from twitter, or YouTube or something? I know someone got banned from twitter for calling Yaniv 'he'. Not sure if it was Posie Parker, or Blaire White, or someone else though. Videos have been taken down from YouTube too, but all the ones I've seen have been put back on. When it's your livelihood it's probably on a par with being sued. I think Canada is a bit funny. Maybe someone in Canada has been sued, though I think I've only seen them deplatformed and taken off social media platforms.


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> But taking offence and blowing it out of proportion to taking legal steps etc is a different thing. People on the thread are not discussing being worried about offending someone's feelings. It's a fear of trans gender people going on some weird power trip suing everyone right and left if they make a mistake and use the wrong pronoun (which so far there has been no supporting cases provided in this thread).


This irritates me actually, because you've interpreted my fear of losing my job as my sole motivation and not because I don't give a shit about upsetting someone.


----------



## bearcub

shadowmare said:


> But taking offence and blowing it out of proportion to taking legal steps etc is a different thing. People on the thread are not discussing being worried about offending someone's feelings. It's a fear of trans gender people going on some weird power trip suing everyone right and left if they make a mistake and use the wrong pronoun (which so far there has been no supporting cases provided in this thread).


I think you are trivialising the genuine concern that a lot of biological women have about being controlled by men.


----------



## kimthecat

This might be a case. he said he didn't do it deliberately . 
https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/10/teacher-sues-school-sacked-calling-transgender-boy-girl-7147404/


----------



## O2.0

It's a strange, odd world right now. 
Trump mocks a disabled reporter, brags about assaulting women, and gets elected (barely) president of the US. 

But stating that biological sex is a real thing can cost you your job. 

Surely there is a more reasoned middle ground somewhere in there?!


----------



## Guest

I think the whole thing can just go round and round in circles with everyone getting upset and offended by something. Because we're all human and we all have our own stuff to deal with regardless of what's in between our legs or our ears. And i also think some people will jump on any equal rights bandwagon for the (slightly narcissistic) bragging right of being an activist and betterthanyou. Meh, unless people can discuss things without their ego getting involved, nothing will get better for anyone.


----------



## Cleo38

Funny … this just popped up on a FB site. I don't understand how Hannah Mountford can be so dismissive of her team mates concerns regarding changing rooms. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...08qk2VuuS-eMUmP4WxF2eZUqFVR3zZoMjhvRj89bFp38k


----------



## Guest

O2.0 said:


> It's a strange, odd world right now.
> Trump mocks a disabled reporter, brags about assaulting women, and gets elected (barely) president of the US.
> 
> But stating that biological sex is a real thing can cost you your job.
> 
> Surely there is a more reasoned middle ground somewhere in there?!


(I believe $$$ may have something to do with the current presidency in US), mental isn't it?


----------



## bearcub

O2.0 said:


> It's a strange, odd world right now.
> Trump mocks a disabled reporter, brags about assaulting women, and gets elected (barely) president of the US.
> 
> But stating that biological sex is a real thing can cost you your job.
> 
> Surely there is a more reasoned middle ground somewhere in there?!


Yes it's the same over here with Boris Johnson. He can refer to female Muslims as looking like letterboxes (and that's one of his milder slurs) and he gets elected with a huge majority to run our country.

Yet Martina Navratilova, an LGBT ambassador and an inspiration to many, stands up for women's sport, gets branded a TERF and loses her position on an LGBT advisory board.


----------



## O2.0

bearcub said:


> Yet Martina Navratilova, an LGBT ambassador and an inspiration to many, stands up for women's sport, gets branded a TERF and loses her position on an LGBT advisory board.


Oh yes! I had forgotten about that! I remember the outcry and was so confused by it. I read her posts/blogs and found them compassionate, articulate, and intelligent. I didn't know she lost her position on the LGBT board


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> Funny … this just popped up on a FB site. I don't understand how Hannah Mountford can be so dismissive of her team mates concerns regarding changing rooms. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...08qk2VuuS-eMUmP4WxF2eZUqFVR3zZoMjhvRj89bFp38k


It is the Mail, but if she really said what they say she did, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she wasn't liked.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> It is the Mail, but if she really said what they say she did, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she wasn't liked.


Yes, I realise that. I found another article where in her words she says:

"Some of the very same people who were saying it was bullshit that I couldn't play AFL Women's league were some of the same voices within the team who were trying to dictate where I could shower and change"

"I can confirm that yes, I was left out of the team for the World Championships because there was a group of players within the team, supported by the team manager, who did not want me showering or using the change rooms before or after the game. This was in turn the sole reason given to me by our coach for my non selection."

So her team mates were supposed to put up with feeling uncomfortable & have their rights trumped purely to accommodate her. That is unbelievably selfish. Surely it is only right that she should change somewhere else, maybe in time her team mates would have felt differently but maybe they wouldn't … that is their right to have a safe place to change in. It is this type of entitled attitude by some that I find deeply worrying

(Full article … https://www.starobserver.com.au/opi...-whats-right-hannah-mouncey-speaks-out/190555)


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> Funny … this just popped up on a FB site. I don't understand how Hannah Mountford can be so dismissive of her team mates concerns regarding changing rooms. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...08qk2VuuS-eMUmP4WxF2eZUqFVR3zZoMjhvRj89bFp38k


It says she was tested for too much testosterone in 2018 . This gives an advantage , plus her height and weight.
i wonder what her level is now .

I used to play netball and there were tall girls who blocked you . Im not sure exactly what handball is , it looks like there is physical contact.

Edited for spelling.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> It says she was tested for too much testosterone in 2018 . This gives an advantage , plus her height and weight.
> i wonder what her level is now .
> 
> I used to play netball and their were tall girls who blocked you . Im bot sure exactly what handball is , it looks like there is physical contact.


I was one of them tall girls  I was also made to run against the boys in 100m sprint (and i would win )


----------



## kimthecat

AsahiGo said:


> I was one of them tall girls  I was also made to run against the boys in 100m sprint (and i would win )


Apologies for my spelling in that post.
Well done, you, I was skinny and nippy and a fast runner. I could out run boys and they never caught me when we played kiss chase in the playground. I clímbed trees faster than them and quicker at climbing over fences. It was funny seeíng their faces. I wanted to play football at school but it wasnt allowed.


----------



## mrs phas

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, I realise that. I found another article where in her words she says:
> 
> "Some of the very same people who were saying it was bullshit that I couldn't play AFL Women's league were some of the same voices within the team who were trying to dictate where I could shower and change"
> 
> "I can confirm that yes, I was left out of the team for the World Championships because there was a group of players within the team, supported by the team manager, who did not want me showering or using the change rooms before or after the game. This was in turn the sole reason given to me by our coach for my non selection."
> 
> So her team mates were supposed to put up with feeling uncomfortable & have their rights trumped purely to accommodate her. That is unbelievably selfish. Surely it is only right that she should change somewhere else, maybe in time her team mates would have felt differently but maybe they wouldn't … that is their right to have a safe place to change in. It is this type of entitled attitude by some that I find deeply worrying
> 
> (Full article … https://www.starobserver.com.au/opi...-whats-right-hannah-mouncey-speaks-out/190555)


first they ban her
then because they want to qualify they include her
talk about double standards
to be fair i think things like this should be thought of along the lines of
does x qualify to play for y country
where its yes if they can prove a link and THEY HAVENT played for another country in the country team
or like zola Budd, for those of us who are old, she could run for UK because she had a proven link, and, had not run for the south african team
As this person had previously played for the mens country handball team
she shouldnot have been accepted on the female country team
NOT because she wasnt female, you all know my feelings by now
as for the showers, well if she has completely transitioned, she has nothing different to what they have, if theyre not scared by their own bodies, why would they by hers
people dont transition for nefarious purposes, if they truly are genderdysphoric, time the difference was recognised
they couldnt have done it to a natural born woman, who may be very predatory, why should they be allowed to do it to someone whose been born into the wrong body


----------



## shadowmare

AsahiGo said:


> This irritates me actually, because you've interpreted my fear of losing my job as my sole motivation and not because I don't give a shit about upsetting someone.


We're you one of the people who said they would continue to call a trans woman a "him" if that's what they believed/ felt like?


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Apologies for my spelling in that post.
> Well done, you, I was skinny and nippy and a fast runner. I could out run boys and they never caught me when we played kiss chase in the playground. I clímbed trees faster than them and quicker at climbing over fences. It was funny seeíng their faces. I wanted to play football at school but it wasnt allowed.


Same here with cricket


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> It says she was tested for too much testosterone in 2018 . This gives an advantage , plus her height and weight.
> i wonder what her level is now .


There was another article I read ages ago about her & the photo that showed her with her team mates just illiustrated how much bigger she was than them so how much more of a powerful person she ould be on the field …. & I imgine that would give her an unfair advantage.



mrs phas said:


> first they ban her
> then because they want to qualify they include her
> talk about double standards
> to be fair i think things like this should be thought of along the lines of
> does x qualify to play for y country
> where its yes if they can prove a link and THEY HAVENT played for another country in the country team
> or like zola Budd, for those of us who are old, she could run for UK because she had a proven link, and, had not run for the south african team
> As this person had previously played for the mens country handball team
> she shouldnot have been accepted on the female country team
> NOT because she wasnt female, you all know my feelings by now
> as for the showers, well if she has completely transitioned, she has nothing different to what they have, if theyre not scared by their own bodies, why would they by hers
> people dont transition for nefarious purposes, if they truly are genderdysphoric, time the difference was recognised
> they couldnt have done it to a natural born woman, who may be very predatory, why should they be allowed to do it to someone whose been born into the wrong body


Personally I don't think she should be allowed to play against women but that's my opinion.

Regarding the changing rooms I feel that women have every right to say who they will undress in front of if that person is of a different gender. Hannah Mouncey has not had gender reassignment surgery so although she may 'feel' she is a woman she has the body of an man.

But maybe you still think that this one person who has a man's body has the right to change in an area of their choice regardless of the opinions of their female team mates


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> first they ban her
> then because they want to qualify they include her
> talk about double standards
> to be fair i think things like this should be thought of along the lines of
> does x qualify to play for y country
> where its yes if they can prove a link and THEY HAVENT played for another country in the country team
> or like zola Budd, for those of us who are old, she could run for UK because she had a proven link, and, had not run for the south african team
> As this person had previously played for the mens country handball team
> she shouldnot have been accepted on the female country team
> NOT because she wasnt female, you all know my feelings by now
> as for the showers, well if she has completely transitioned, she has nothing different to what they have, if theyre not scared by their own bodies, why would they by hers
> people dont transition for nefarious purposes, if they truly are genderdysphoric, time the difference was recognised
> they couldnt have done it to a natural born woman, who may be very predatory, why should they be allowed to do it to someone whose been born into the wrong body


If they had too high a testosterone level to play last year, I presume they haven't had the surgery.


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> We're you one of the people who said they would continue to call a trans woman a "him" if that's what they believed/ felt like?


What? No of course not :/ 
I call people what they want to be called, and they can do the same...
However I often get called a lot of words other than my given name


----------



## shadowmare

AsahiGo said:


> This irritates me actually, because you've interpreted my fear of losing my job as my sole motivation and not because I don't give a shit about upsetting someone.


Read this another few times and am still puzzled as to why you think my post was somehow directed at you?


----------



## kimthecat

AsahiGo said:


> Same here with cricket


We didnt have cricket at out primary school for either boys or girls but our headmaster was a great fan and he taught us how to play.Howzat!


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> Read this another few times and am still puzzled as to why you think my post was somehow directed at you?


Because you quoted me.


----------



## shadowmare

AsahiGo said:


> What? No of course not :/
> I call people what they want to be called, and they can do the same...
> However I often get called a lot of words other than my given name


Then the post was clearly not about you so I'm puzzled as to where my interpretation of your fears came in...


----------



## shadowmare

AsahiGo said:


> Because you quoted me.


The posy you expressed your irritation about was quoting and commenting to mrs phas... my reply to your post was above that.


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> Then the post was clearly not about you so I'm puzzled as to where my interpretation of your fears came in...


I'm sure you said something along the lines of people seem to be more bothered about the implications against them then hurting others' feelings.
Sorry, I've probably gotten it wrong I often do. I skim read a lot


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> The posy you expressed your irritation about was quoting and commenting to mrs phas... my reply to your post was above that.


Sorry, I'm getting confused in the msgs. Discard them, I've made a mistake


----------



## shadowmare

AsahiGo said:


> Sorry, I'm getting confused in the msgs. Discard them, I've made a mistake


Haha it's ok. I posted one post after another because I didn't want to write one long post quoting and replying to different things but it made it more confusing when notifications come up!


----------



## mrs phas

Cleo38 said:


> Regarding the changing rooms I feel that women have every right to say who they will undress in front of if that person is of a different gender. Hannah Mouncey has not had gender reassignment surgery so although she may 'feel' she is a woman she has the body of an man.
> 
> But maybe you still think that this one person who has a man's body has the right to change in an area of their choice regardless of the opinions of their female team mates


was there really any need for the snidiness and meanness of that last sentence? it really does let you and your opinions down, you know

as for this particular person I did say


> as for the showers, well* if she has completely transitioned*, she has nothing different to what they have,


which intimates that i had no idea whether she had or hadnt, quite clearly
now i know
so I thank you for that


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> Haha it's ok. I posted one post after another because I didn't want to write one long post quoting and replying to different things but it made it more confusing when notifications come up!


I don't always get notifications on here! Yeah sorry again for being shitty in your direction I'm easily confused


----------



## Cleo38

mrs phas said:


> was there really any need for the snidiness and meanness of that last sentence? it really does let you and your opinions down, you know
> 
> as for this particular person I did say
> 
> which intimates that i had no idea whether she had or hadnt, quite clearly
> now i know
> so I thank you for that


Hahaha! It wasn't snide at all … I simply thought that as you seemed to have little regard for concerns of some women then you might still support the right of one person to trump the right of several other people. I don't feel it lets me down at all. It was a simple question really. So do you think that a trans woman who has the body of man has the right to change in a female only area? Do you still think that as this person hasn't had surgery to fully transition his team mates are wrong to feel this way? It's not trying to catch you out or anything, I genuinely am interested


----------



## picaresque

There's no such thing as being 'born in the wrong body', I don't know how anyone can make that claim with a straight face.


----------



## bearcub

picaresque said:


> There's no such thing as being 'born in the wrong body', I don't know how anyone can make that claim with a straight face.


Yep. This belief reduces sex to literally a feeling. Which is nonsensical.


----------



## Guest

^I'm sure Jo Rogan did a podcast on this.


----------



## Guest

*Joe
In fact, he has a load of talks on transgender if anyone is interested


----------



## mrs phas

Cleo38 said:


> Hahaha! It wasn't snide at all … I simply thought that as you seemed to have little regard for concerns of some women then you might still support the right of one person to trump the right of several other people. I don't feel it lets me down at all. It was a simple question really. So do you think that a trans woman who has the body of man has the right to change in a female only area? Do you still think that as this person hasn't had surgery to fully transition his team mates are wrong to feel this way? It's not trying to catch you out or anything, I genuinely am interested


I only said if they had transitioned then they had nothing to be afraid of
Thats IF
As the person concerned has not transitioned, just really self identified, I refer you to my previous answer, some posts back
They have nothing to be afraid of, but as it makes them feel uncomfortable, they have the right to raise their concerns
Having concerns ABOUT a situation is very different to being afraid IN the situation.
They obviously didn't feel comfortable in raising it with the person, so they took it higher up the chain
Comfort and fear had nothing to do with using the person, against others of their own gender, so as to win the qualifier though, did it?
Personally, I'm more afraid and uncomfortable in the presence of those who'd use others, for their own gain, than stripping off in front of a mtof trans, tucked and tied or not
But then I'm comfortable and at peace with who I am, so allow others to be the same
Plus
if they had nothing better to do, than ogle me, I'd feel deeply sorry for them


----------



## Elles

picaresque said:


> There's no such thing as being 'born in the wrong body', I don't know how anyone can make that claim with a straight face.


I think it's impossible to describe and that's the easiest and accepted way to describe it.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> I only said if they had transitioned then they had nothing to be afraid of
> Thats IF
> As the person concerned has not transitioned, just really self identified, I refer you to my previous answer, some posts back
> They have nothing to be afraid of, but as it makes them feel uncomfortable, they have the right to raise their concerns
> Having concerns ABOUT a situation is very different to being afraid IN the situation.
> They obviously didn't feel comfortable in raising it with the person, so they took it higher up the chain
> Comfort and fear had nothing to do with using the person, against others of their own gender, so as to win the qualifier though, did it?
> Personally, I'm more afraid and uncomfortable in the presence of those who'd use others, for their own gain, than stripping off in front of a mtof trans, tucked and tied or not
> But then I'm comfortable and at peace with who I am, so allow others to be the same
> Plus
> if they had nothing better to do, than ogle me, I'd feel deeply sorry for them


I couldn't. I couldn't change in front of my brothers, feel a bit uncomfortable naked with hubby unless I've had a glass or two of wine. I feel vulnerable naked and I would absolutely refuse to shower with a bloke. If anything was raised, I'd definitely be out of there. 

(No offence intended)

Some people are naturists, that doesn't mean it's appropriate everywhere, or comfortable for everyone.  We don't know why it was allowed before, or what might have happened for the girls to eventually ask for them to shower separately. If Hannah had raised testosterone levels.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> If they had too high a testosterone level to play last year, I presume they haven't had the surgery.


But they could've been taking testosterone blockers and hormone enhancers
Which would have made a difference internally, if not externally, 
although, most transitioning, whilst on hormones and blockers, do develop breast tissue, a softer facial profile, a slightly higher pitch to their voice (but still need vocal training) a loss of libido through the shrinking of the testicals and lack of production of male gonadotropins , those being replaced in a minor way by female ones (hence no one needing to be frightened of predation)
So yes, their testosterone level may have fallen considerably within that year


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> But they could've been taking testosterone blockers and hormone enhancers
> Which would have made a difference internally, if not externally,
> although, most transitioning, whilst on hormones and blockers, do develop breast tissue, a softer facial profile, a slightly higher pitch to their voice (but still need vocal training) a loss of libido through the shrinking of the testicals and lack of production of male gonadotropins , those being replaced in a minor way by female ones (hence no one needing to be frightened of predation)
> So yes, their testosterone level may have fallen considerably within that year


Something must have happened. The team have probably scuppered their chances, or at least reduced them.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> I couldn't. I couldn't change in front of my brothers, feel a bit uncomfortable naked with hubby unless I've had a glass or two of wine. I feel vulnerable naked and I would absolutely refuse to shower with a bloke. If anything was raised, I'd definitely be out of there.
> 
> (No offence intended)
> 
> Some people are naturists, that doesn't mean it's appropriate everywhere, or comfortable for everyone.  We don't know why it was allowed before, or what might have happened for the girls to eventually ask for them to shower separately. If Hannah had raised testosterone levels.


Agreed. When I read the trans inclusion toolkit (Brighton & Hove Council) which discussed trans children using the changing areas of their chosen genders it made me wince. Changing at school for PE was incredibly difficult for me & being forced to have a shower was horrific ( am not being dramatic, I used to worry about it all week & I honestly think it contributed to my dislike of sport) but to think I could have been forced to shower with biological males is dreadful & I feel so sorry for girls that my be facing those sort of issues at schools.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> I couldn't. I couldn't change in front of my brothers, feel a bit uncomfortable naked with hubby unless I've had a glass or two of wine. I feel vulnerable naked and I would absolutely refuse to shower with a bloke. If anything was raised, I'd definitely be out of there.
> 
> (No offence intended)
> 
> Some people are naturists, that doesn't mean it's appropriate everywhere, or comfortable for everyone.  We don't know why it was allowed before, or what might have happened for the girls to eventually ask for them to shower separately. If Hannah had raised testosterone levels.


Oh believe me, I'm no naturist, nor an exhibitionist
It just doesn't bother me.
I grew up in a family with one bathroom that housed the loo too, if my father or brother needed to use it, whilst I or my sisters were in the bath, then they used it, but with discretion
when staying with my mums aunt, who lived in a Nissan hut, we kids all stripped in front of the fire to use the tin bath.
The only person I ever looked at, naked, in any sexual way, was my husband, the rest was just what family did. I hasten to add once we'd grown breasts or started "women's troubles" ( which for me was quite young for those days)that all stopped, full stop, as we were women, not children, then and respect was given


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> Agreed. When I read the trans inclusion toolkit (Brighton & Hove Council) which discussed trans children using the changing areas of their chosen genders it made me wince. Changing at school for PE was incredibly difficult for me & being forced to have a shower was horrific ( am not being dramatic, I used to worry about it all week & I honestly think it contributed to my dislike of sport) but to think I could have been forced to shower with biological males is dreadful & I feel so sorry for girls that my be facing those sort of issues at schools.


 Luckily we didnt have showers at our school .


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> But they could've been taking testosterone blockers and hormone enhancers
> Which would have made a difference internally, if not externally,
> although, most transitioning, whilst on hormones and blockers, do develop breast tissue, a softer facial profile, a slightly higher pitch to their voice (but still need vocal training) a loss of libido through the shrinking of the testicals and lack of production of male gonadotropins , those being replaced in a minor way by female ones (hence no one needing to be frightened of predation)
> So yes, their testosterone level may have fallen considerably within that year


eta Fake news, ignore this reply. Hopefully they can get a fake fb taken down, it's being linked.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> On his Facebook page he's incredibly rude about women, calls his team mates midgets, jokes about being hung like a horse and complains that he needs sex.


I'm pretty sure that's a fake profile page, not the real Hannah Mouncey...


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> I'm pretty sure that's a fake profile page, not the real Hannah Mouncey...


I did wonder. Why doesn't he have it taken down and has it really been there for years? People are linking it, which is unfair if he didn't put it up.


----------



## Elles

I’ve done a bit of research, I would agree that people are linking a fake. 

It seems the newspaper report was false too. They posted their test results going back to 2015 to prove they weren’t dropped and their testosterone levels weren’t too high. Hannah is diagnosed bi-polar, but rarely talks about it and wasn’t well it seems. That would make it difficult to know the truth of what happened. I think this is deeper than trans and none of my business, so I’ll apologise, leave it and wish them the best. 

I usually do due diligence and didn’t this time, because it was late. Mea culpa.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> I've done a bit of research, I would agree that people are linking a fake.
> 
> It seems the newspaper report was false too. They posted their test results going back to 2015 to prove they weren't dropped and their testosterone levels weren't too high. Hannah is diagnosed bi-polar, but rarely talks about it and wasn't well it seems. That would make it difficult to know the truth of what happened. I think this is deeper than trans and none of my business, so I'll apologise, leave it and wish them the best.
> 
> I usually do due diligence and didn't this time, because it was late. Mea culpa.


What newspaper report? The link I posted was from an Australian LGBT news site that Hannah Mouncey wrote a piece for. Did you mean this one or another?


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> What newspaper report? The link I posted was from an Australian LGBT news site that Hannah Mouncey wrote a piece for. Did you mean this one or another?


Sorry, I confused things by deleting a post. Newspaper reports are saying that their testosterone levels were too high a year ago and they were dropped, but it seems that wasn't true and was just a rumour floating about.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> Sorry, I confused things by deleting a post. Newspaper reports are saying that their testosterone levels were too high a year ago and they were dropped, but it seems that wasn't true and was just a rumour floating about.


Hahaha, ok … I am easily confused anyway tbh!


----------



## Lurcherlad

Elles said:


> I couldn't. I couldn't change in front of my brothers, feel a bit uncomfortable naked with hubby unless I've had a glass or two of wine. I feel vulnerable naked and I would absolutely refuse to shower with a bloke. If anything was raised, I'd definitely be out of there.
> 
> (No offence intended)
> 
> Some people are naturists, that doesn't mean it's appropriate everywhere, or comfortable for everyone.  We don't know why it was allowed before, or what might have happened for the girls to eventually ask for them to shower separately. If Hannah had raised testosterone levels.


Indeed.

I'm just wondering how I would know whether a trans woman was pre or post op just by looking at them fully clothed? So someone's argument that "there is nothing to be scared of" is somewhat difficult to prove most of the time, surely?

Given that (unfortunately for them I guess) many trans women still look very much masculine, a female has every right to feel vulnerable in certain circumstances and a vulnerable female, even more so.

I'm accepting of anybody's chosen identity but it's not right that another person's needs are trumped to accommodate and protect them.


----------



## bearcub

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/now-even-rape-is-gender-neutral/

An article about how "women" can now be rapists, even though rape is defined in law as penetration with a penis. All rapists are men. End of.


----------



## Cleo38

Lurcherlad said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I'm just wondering how I would know whether a trans woman was pre or post op just by looking at them fully clothed? So someone's argument that "there is nothing to be scared of" is somewhat difficult to prove most of the time, surely?
> 
> Given that (unfortunately for them I guess) many trans women still look very much masculine, a female has every right to feel vulnerable in certain circumstances and a vulnerable female, even more so.
> 
> I'm accepting of anybody's chosen identity but it's not right that another person's needs are trumped to accommodate and protect them.


This is exactly how I feel, it's not about denying people their rights at all but ensuring everyone is accommodated. That's why I find Hannah Mouncey's views very entitled in that despite her team mates concerns regarding the changing rooms she seemed to imply that her rights were more important ….. I don't understand that mindset tbh.

A while ago I was working form home & had the TV on (in the back ground) & there was a programme with Caitlin Jenner on & her friends. They were on a campaign bus (I have no idea who the people were or what they were campaigning for as I wasn't really watching it), anyway there was some shouting & crying from one of her friends which got my attention & the crying person was a trans woman who was upset that she wasn't considered a 'real woman' (or words to that effect) by some people.

Another trans woman was arguing with her saying they weren't 'real women' but trans women & that was something to be proud of. She argued that by labelling herself a trans woman was something to celebrate as it meant she had overcome so many obstacles in her life & had finally became the person she wanted to be … which I could sort of understand more. What is wrong with being a trans woman? I don't see that as a slur or offensive or mean someone is somehow less of a person …


----------



## bearcub

Cleo38 said:


> What is wrong with being a trans woman? I don't see that as a slur or offensive or mean someone is somehow less of a person …


Exactly.

In fact to go one step further, what is wrong with being a man who wears make up or dresses?


----------



## Cleo38

bearcub said:


> Exactly.
> 
> In fact to go one step further, what is wrong with being a man who wears make up or dresses?


But that's another thing that I don't get … when people say they don't feel like a woman/man because they like (what's considered) masculine/feminine clothing/hobbies, etc. It's like we have gone backwards in that we need to conform to stereotypes. That's why I hate the 'term Tom boy' now when applied to girls. I know it's not mean to be derogatory (mainly) but it still suggests that girls who climb trees or have short hair or like football (for example) are deviating from the 'norm' when its not. It's perfectly normal for girls to want to do those things just as it is for boys to want to have a doll as a toy when they are little or wear a dress or have long hair.


----------



## O2.0

That's an interesting point about what is 'normal' for young children. Around 12 or 13 my son decided he wanted to grow his hair out. I was fine with that, the only caveat was he had to keep it clean and brushed out. So pretty soon he was a long-haired boy. The number of people who commented about me 'letting' him grow his hair out! 
One day driving home from school he mentioned that someone had asked him if he was a girl, because he had girl hair. We had a conversation about how that sort of thing was going to happen if he chose to have long hair. And his choice was to either cut his hair and fit in more, or keep the hair and decide not to be bothered by the comments. I remember asking him if he was a girl, and he said no, of course not. And I reminded him of how clearly he knew and felt that. That was all that should matter. But if it mattered to him what other people thought, he might have to consider cutting his hair. Totally your choice. And I meant it 100% without judgement. 

He didn't cut his hair. 

He's now a strapping 17 year old with long hair and a beard. Well, his hair is short-ish now 'cause he just did his yearly donation. He grows it out, cuts it, donates it, then grows it out again. 
He still gets comments about his hair from time to time, and it's totally water off a duck's back. 

Okay LOL I'm not sure where I was going with this ha ha! 
Probably something to do with gender norms and how we should be more accepting of the wide variety that makes up the human condition. 
But at the same time, know that if you do vary from the 'norm' people are going to notice, and often say something, and it may not always be kind. But that's okay too. Because you get to decide how you're going to react to the comments.


----------



## Guest

O2.0 said:


> That's an interesting point about what is 'normal' for young children. Around 12 or 13 my son decided he wanted to grow his hair out. I was fine with that, the only caveat was he had to keep it clean and brushed out. So pretty soon he was a long-haired boy. The number of people who commented about me 'letting' him grow his hair out!
> One day driving home from school he mentioned that someone had asked him if he was a girl, because he had girl hair. We had a conversation about how that sort of thing was going to happen if he chose to have long hair. And his choice was to either cut his hair and fit in more, or keep the hair and decide not to be bothered by the comments. I remember asking him if he was a girl, and he said no, of course not. And I reminded him of how clearly he knew and felt that. That was all that should matter. But if it mattered to him what other people thought, he might have to consider cutting his hair. Totally your choice. And I meant it 100% without judgement.
> 
> He didn't cut his hair.
> 
> He's now a strapping 17 year old with long hair and a beard. Well, his hair is short-ish now 'cause he just did his yearly donation. He grows it out, cuts it, donates it, then grows it out again.
> He still gets comments about his hair from time to time, and it's totally water off a duck's back.
> 
> Okay LOL I'm not sure where I was going with this ha ha!
> Probably something to do with gender norms and how we should be more accepting of the wide variety that makes up the human condition.
> But at the same time, know that if you do vary from the 'norm' people are going to notice, and often say something, and it may not always be kind. But that's okay too. Because you get to decide how you're going to react to the comments.


My nine year old has a k-pop style haircut. As in at its longest, its maybe chin-length. Otherwise it's shaved. She wears boys clothes. Likes 'boy' things. Often get's referred to as He or asked if shes a handsome girl or pretty boy. She gets frustrated sometimes with why cant she just be *insert name*.


----------



## O2.0

AsahiGo said:


> My nine year old has a k-pop style haircut. As in at its longest, its maybe chin-length. Otherwise it's shaved. She wears boys clothes. Likes 'boy' things. Often get's referred to as He or asked if shes a handsome girl or pretty boy. She gets frustrated sometimes with why cant she just be *insert name*.


It is totally normal ****-sapien behavior to notice any divergence from the norm. I felt like my son needed to accept that if he was going to go with the long hair thing, it was going to be commented on. Expecting anything less is just unrealistic. 
However, he also got to decide if he was going to be bothered by the comments or not. If he was comfortable as a boy with long hair, then be comfortable as a boy with long hair and don't let the opinions of others affect that.

The world isn't going to change for you, but you can decide how much you're going to let the world change you.

Obviously it's never that easy or straight forward, and kids need a lot of support and practice navigating socially (this is true whether they conform to the norm or not).


----------



## Cleo38

bearcub said:


> https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/now-even-rape-is-gender-neutral/
> 
> An article about how "women" can now be rapists, even though rape is defined in law as penetration with a penis. All rapists are men. End of.


And police forces recording crimes according to gender the criminal 'identifies' with 

Considering most violent/sexual crime is perpetrated by men this is worrying

https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime...ng-suspects-to-self-identify-gender-1-4939550
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-forces-let-rapists-record-their-gender-as-female-d7qtb7953


----------



## bearcub

The appearance of the 'victim' in this particular situation is why we should stand with Maya.

Google Gregor Murray.


----------



## Elles

bearcub said:


> The appearance of the 'victim' in this particular situation is why we should stand with Maya.
> 
> Google Gregor Murray.


Yeah, he's a very scary person.


----------



## picaresque

bearcub said:


> The appearance of the 'victim' in this particular situation is why we should stand with Maya.
> 
> Google Gregor Murray.


Quite.
'Don't you dare call me a man, I'll have you sacked!' is an irl 'How many fingers, Winston?' moment.
Wasn't he suspended from the SNP for calling women on twitter who dared disagree with him c***s?


----------



## kimthecat

Sharon Davies has tweeted about Drag queens and upset some people and sóme agree. I loved Lily Savage and dame Edna , they were hilarious . I never found it offensive.
@sharrond62
·
15h
Am I the only person fed up of drag shows? A parody of what a real woman is, like black face. Woman are juggling kids, rushing out a wholesome dinner, doing the laundry & cleaning, holding down a job all with period pains & leaky boobs if breast feeding. Enough of the stereotypes

A tweet supporting her

Andreia Nobre
@ariana_erbon
Replying to
@sharrond62
Drag is really not OK, it ridicules women, no doubt. But blackface led to direct violence against black ppl. Many black women have now explained that we could question drag without comparing with blackface bc they feel it diminishes the fight against racism
9:13 AM · Dec 21, 2019·Twitter for Android


----------



## Elles

picaresque said:


> Quite.
> 'Don't you dare call me a man, I'll have you sacked!' is an irl 'How many fingers, Winston?' moment.
> Wasn't he suspended from the SNP for calling women on twitter who dared disagree with him c***s?


https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-abolition-of-sanity-part-2/

This article and the comments I found most interesting, especially as the gra in Scotland is up for change at the moment. I've seen quite a few discussions saying that self ID won't erode women's rights. Probably because we no longer have any.

The more I look into this, the more I realise that LGBT have been hijacked by straight/bi men and fetishists and we've all pandered to them. Part of their paraphilia is to be acknowledged as female, one of the greatest confirmations is being permitted into women's spaces such as changing rooms and showers, and/or to have documentation. Hannah Mouncey and Riley would be typical of Autogynephilia. They sometimes call themselves lesbians and may have difficulty maintaining relationships as their interest in themselves as female can be all encompassing and distressing. Milder forms may be satisfied with what we used to call transvestism.

Gentle gay trans, such as Blaire White and Rose of Dawn who seem really sensible to me, aren't the same. They are same sex attracted and are the typical 'born in the wrong body' that we came to understand as trans. They have no interest in sharing women's showers and if they need safe spaces, would be more likely to be happy with spaces reserved for gay men, rather than forcing their presence on women and lesbians. They know they aren't biological women and don't have this burning desire to be thought of as such.

http://www.genderpsychology.org/autogynephilia/

It's quite interesting how transactivists, mostly men, have gradually changed our politics and how successful they've been in forcing their ideology on us, with the help of well meaning support.

Of course understanding of the human condition changes constantly and this is my simplistic theory based on what I've been reading, but I do think it could explain some of the confusion and why some trans identified people seem so very different from others at least to me. I had heard of it and knew that in the past they were separated into transsexual/transvestite, but it does seem to go much further. If confirmed it needs to be more widely known and discussed, especially amongst politicians who are setting our laws and trampling on women's rights.


----------



## Elles

I don’t have a problem with drag as entertainment, but keep the kids out of it. The drag queen story times need banning and kids should not be dressing in drag and entertaining adults in bars.

It would be a shame if we couldn’t be entertained by the Lily Savages, Edna Everages and Dick Emerys, because of recent controversy and Kenny Everett’s Cupid Stunt was one of his most loved characters.


----------



## picaresque

Elles said:


> https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-abolition-of-sanity-part-2/
> 
> This article and the comments I found most interesting, especially as the gra in Scotland is up for change at the moment. I've seen quite a few discussions saying that self ID won't erode women's rights. Probably because we no longer have any.
> 
> The more I look into this, the more I realise that LGBT have been hijacked by straight/bi men and fetishists and we've all pandered to them. Part of their paraphilia is to be acknowledged as female, one of the greatest confirmations is being permitted into women's spaces such as changing rooms and showers, and/or to have documentation. Hannah Mouncey and Riley would be typical of Autogynephilia. They sometimes call themselves lesbians and may have difficulty maintaining relationships as their interest in themselves as female can be all encompassing and distressing. Milder forms may be satisfied with what we used to call transvestism.
> 
> Gentle gay trans, such as Blaire White and Rose of Dawn who seem really sensible to me, aren't the same. They are same sex attracted and are the typical 'born in the wrong body' that we came to understand as trans. They have no interest in sharing women's showers and if they need safe spaces, would be more likely to be happy with spaces reserved for gay men, rather than forcing their presence on women and lesbians. They know they aren't biological women and don't have this burning desire to be thought of as such.
> 
> http://www.genderpsychology.org/autogynephilia/
> 
> It's quite interesting how transactivists, mostly men, have gradually changed our politics and how successful they've been in forcing their ideology on us, with the help of well meaning support.
> 
> Of course understanding of the human condition changes constantly and this is my simplistic theory based on what I've been reading, but I do think it could explain some of the confusion and why some trans identified people seem so very different from others at least to me. I had heard of it and knew that in the past they were separated into transsexual/transvestite, but it does seem to go much further. If confirmed it needs to be more widely known and discussed, especially amongst politicians who are setting our laws and trampling on women's rights.


Great post, really sums it up. I'm not all that fond of Blaire White though I must admit (not familiar with Rose of Dawn).



Elles said:


> I don't have a problem with drag as entertainment, but keep the kids out of it. The drag queen story times need banning and kids should not be dressing in drag and entertaining adults in bars.
> 
> It would be a shame if we couldn't be entertained by the Lily Savages, Edna Everages and Dick Emerys, because of recent controversy and Kenny Everett's Cupid Stunt was one of his most loved characters.


There are some aspects of drag I don't particularly like but it can be fun and I'm happy to live and let live. It is adult entertainment though as you say @Elles - the current fad for 'drag queen story time' in libraries is just bizarre and vaguely sinister; don't even get me started on Desmond is Amazing. If a little girl was half dressed and dancing in nightclubs for adult men it would rightly be condemned (and the law would get involved) but this is dressed up as progressive because rainbow.


----------



## Elles

Rose is British. She does a Trans-stupid video on YouTube once a week, usually on Wednesdays now I think. She’s covering a year of trans stupid tonight on a live stream. I like her typically British light humour and I think if trans were like her we wouldn’t have nearly the problems we have. I like Blaire because she’s not threatening and is on our side. She is a bit ott now, but she did a video about her rape a couple of years ago that totally won me over. Some of the trans are bloody scary.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> The world isn't going to change for you


:Hilarious Keep up.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> I don't have a problem with drag as entertainment, but keep the kids out of it. The drag queen story times need banning and kids should not be dressing in drag and entertaining adults in bars.
> 
> It would be a shame if we couldn't be entertained by the Lily Savages, Edna Everages and Dick Emerys, because of recent controversy and Kenny Everett's Cupid Stunt was one of his most loved characters.


It is something I have been re-thinking tbh & am still not sure. I watched some Dick Emery episodes the other day & still find him hilarious as I do Lily Savage but some of it I think is pretty offensive & am sort of on the fence about it. I agree that this thing about drag queens reading stories to children is just weird IMO & am not sure what this is supposed to achieve. Considering most drag acts (the ones I have seen in bars/clubs) are overtly sexual then hardly appropriate for children even if they are curbing their language.

There was the case last year with a 14yr old school boy who was banned from appearing in drag at a school talent show There was a big fuss in the media but I couldn't understand how anyone thought this was appropriate for a child. He stated in interviews that he was 'inspired' by Ru Paul & quite rightly the school pointed out that Ru Pauls' character was based on sexual innuendo so hardly appropriate for a school talent show.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/24/schoolboy-banned-talent-show-will-perform-biggest-names-drag-7755182/


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> am not sure what this is supposed to achieve


2 of them at the Seattle library were later discovered to be sex offenders interested in children. If a guy wants access to kids, change your name, dress up in drag and pressure your drag friends into thinking it's a good idea. Unfortunately people being nice will support it. Dress like uncle Ernie and you'd never get away with it. Jimmy Saville managed to assault kids in full view of tv cameras.

Basically men who are interested in children were hiding in plain sight and their innocent friends made a party to it. Now it's supposedly teaching kids acceptance, but as most drag queens have no interest in reading stories to kids, when they start stripping in front of them, maybe responsible adults need to start taking notice.. 

So long as it's kept to appropriate venues I think it's a ton of fuss about nothing. On the one hand people say they don't care what consenting adults get up to...


----------



## mrs phas

please, you started this about transpeople and womens rights and i was starting to see your pov
but
drag queens and transpersons are about as far apart as the north and south poles
real transpersons have a diagnosed condition
drag queens do not, they are just cocks in frocks


----------



## bearcub

mrs phas said:


> real transpersons have a diagnosed condition


This is no longer the case. The World Health Organisation no longer classifies trans issues as a mental or physical health condition which is another worrying facet of all of this.


----------



## kimthecat

I met up with a friend who is a social worker and deals with teenagers . I asked her about this , and she said there was a teenage boy in council care who wants to transform and he is hormone treatment at the moment . When it was discussed and she said was worried about a young person having hormone and asked why they didn't wait until he was older. She was told she would face a discipline action or something so she shut up.


----------



## bearcub

kimthecat said:


> I met up with a friend who is a social worker and deals with teenagers . I asked her about this , and she said there was a teenage boy in council care who wants to transform and he is hormone treatment at the moment . When it was discussed and she said was worried about a young person having hormone and asked why they didn't wait until he was older. She was told she would face a discipline action or something so she shut up.


We are failing these youngsters. They deserve so much better than to be told their body is wrong.

I have had weight issues all my life, and was told from an early age, like 4 years old, that my body was wrong - too big. I know how much that has messed me up and destroyed my self esteem.

How much worse must it be to be told that every part of your body is wrong and the only thing you can do to change it is take medication for life, live as a 'marginalised' and vulnerable member of society (their words) and remove parts of your body. Horrific.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> please, you started this about transpeople and womens rights and i was starting to see your pov
> but
> drag queens and transpersons are about as far apart as the north and south poles
> real transpersons have a diagnosed condition
> drag queens do not, they are just cocks in frocks


Agree.

I don't think it's at all helpful using drag as an example to prevent trans women wearing feminine clothes and comparing it to blackface, is uncalled for imo. And that's where I think the conversation is heading and the underlying sentiment.  Biological males who dress as (stereotypical) women are comparable to white people who black up. No, they aren't. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm reading too much into it, but I don't think so. It's the turn the conversation has taken out in twitterati land. I don't agree, I think sometimes we have to let grown adults get on with it, so long as they aren't imposing anything on others.


----------



## kimthecat

bearcub said:


> We are failing these youngsters. They deserve so much better than to be told their body is wrong.
> 
> I have had weight issues all my life, and was told from an early age, like 4 years old, that my body was wrong - too big. I know how much that has messed me up and destroyed my self esteem.
> 
> How much worse must it be to be told that every part of your body is wrong and the only thing you can do to change it is take medication for life, live as a 'marginalised' and vulnerable member of society (their words) and remove parts of your body. Horrific.


That must have been hard on you . I was the second skinniest girl in my class as teenager and used to be known as the skinny one. Other kids used to make jokes but no way was it as bad as the jokes made about the overweight kids. kids can be cruel.

Im wondering about the hormones for life. If trans gets cancer I would think they would have to come off the female hormone drug as they encourage the tumours to grow , What would happen then , they would be left in limbo.


----------



## O2.0

Does anyone remember the case of Rachel Dolezal? A white woman who identified as black and worked her way up to chapter president of the NAACP. She was eventually 'outed' as white by her parents I believe, and called out as a fraud. 

Genuine question. Why do we as a society find it unacceptable for Rachel Dolezal to appropriate a race she is not, but we accept men appropriating a sex they are not?


----------



## bearcub

O2.0 said:


> Does anyone remember the case of Rachel Dolezal? A white woman who identified as black and worked her way up to chapter president of the NAACP. She was eventually 'outed' as white by her parents I believe, and called out as a fraud.
> 
> Genuine question. Why do we as a society find it unacceptable for Rachel Dolezal to appropriate a race she is not, but we accept men appropriating a sex they are not?


I'm not sure, but I suspect it's because trans people position themselves as vulnerable and marginalised - many believing they are the most vulnerable and marginalised in society whereas Rachel Dolezal was appropriating those less privileged than her which made it less palatable.

If you take the marginalisation and vulnerability away though, of course it is just appropriation.


----------



## O2.0

bearcub said:


> I'm not sure, but I suspect it's because trans people position themselves as vulnerable and marginalised - many believing they are the most vulnerable and marginalised in society whereas Rachel Dolezal was appropriating those less privileged than her which made it less palatable.
> 
> If you take the marginalisation and vulnerability away though, of course it is just appropriation.


I genuinely don't know the answer, just interested in people's replies


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> Does anyone remember the case of Rachel Dolezal? A white woman who identified as black and worked her way up to chapter president of the NAACP. She was eventually 'outed' as white by her parents I believe, and called out as a fraud.
> 
> Genuine question. Why do we as a society find it unacceptable for Rachel Dolezal to appropriate a race she is not, but we accept men appropriating a sex they are not?


I remember that. Intersting question, I dont really know. Was she genuinely identifying as black? Perhaps they considered it to be blacking up .


----------



## Elles

We don’t is the answer. A white woman pretending to be black and taking spaces, prestige and positions away from genuine black women is unacceptable. A trans woman pretending to be a biological woman and taking spaces, prestige and positions away from genuine women is unacceptable.

I think culture appropriation is in at the moment. Bo Derek would no longer be given a perfect 10, but run off twitter.


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-woman-debbie-hayton-faces-ban-for-transphobia-96tfkl5gc
A transgender woman has been accused of transphobia for wearing a T-shirt saying she is really still a man.

Debbie Hayton, 51, a physics teacher in the Midlands, who transitioned from male to female in 2012, is facing expulsion from the LGBT committee of the Trades Union Congress (TUC) for the slogan: "Trans women are men. Get over it!"

Hayton wore the T-shirt at an event organised by Fair Play for Women, a campaign group, in July. She has undergone surgery and hormone treatment and has changed her name, but has not sought a gender recognition certificate.

If she is forced out, it would mean that even people who have struggled with gender identity and undergone reassignment surgery can be accused of transphobia for declaring…


----------



## Elles

I’m finding it quite sad that women are piling into drag, some people are creating works of art and have put hours of effort in. It feels like a witch hunt to me and quite the bandwagon.  How can anyone think Paul o’Grady is a woman hating mysoginist.  Lily Savage was a cartoon creation, not an insult to women on a par with blackface. 

For many they’re like fictional alter egos, their Superman to Clark Kent. People don’t have to like it and I wouldn’t go to one of the extreme drag acts that are ugly and over sexualised, but I think the hate is going too far and isn’t doing our cause any favours.

Maybe I’m wrong, but JK Rowling said “Dress however you please”.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Personally, I don’t like Drag - I think most of them look grotesque and the humour is cheap and tacky, but each to their own.

Not sure there’s any good reason for drag queens to be reading to kids in libraries. Drag is an adult pastime so “acceptance” by kids is irrelevant imo.

The Dame in panto covers it surely?

Any adult mixing with children within an organisation should be CRB checked, I believe, to safeguard those children anyway.


----------



## Siskin

Lurcherlad said:


> Personally, I don't like Drag - I think most of them look grotesque and the humour is cheap and tacky, but each to their own.
> 
> Not sure there's any good reason for drag queens to be reading to kids in libraries. Drag is an adult pastime so "acceptance" by kids is irrelevant imo.
> 
> The Dame in panto covers it surely?
> 
> Any adult mixing with children within an organisation should be CRB checked, I believe, to safeguard those children anyway.


I'm with you here on drag, never have liked drag queens like Danny Le Rue etc, but that is just me and apart from saying I don't like this form of entertainment I leave well alone.
Surely the drag artists reading to children have been CRB checked as should be anyone coming into contact with children as part of a job (paid or unpaid).


----------



## lullabydream

Depends.. Hypothetical if its a one off..its probably classed as a grey area. For safe guarding a drag queen or whatever guest visitor should never be alone with the children... 
Children's library allows adults as in parent/carers to wander freely in the building of course...

If this is the drag queen job, there definitely should be a DBS plus again for anyone working in an environment with children to cover your back, and the children there should be a drag queen and another adult present which should be a member of the library for safeguarding.


----------



## Elles

Drag Queen story hour started in America, apart from using the LGBTQI++ umbrella it really has nothing to do with trans. In some states LGBTQI++ are actually protesting against background checks though, because they say it unfairly targets the lgbtq community. Google ‘drag queen story hour twerking’ and you’ll find a wonderful person teaching kids twerking in a Devon U.K. library. They asked kids to send them their email address.

America is worse, with photos of young children rolling around on top of drag queens on the floor, drag queens stripping and throwing themselves around and all kinds of inappropriate behaviour, as well as two who were found to be child sex offenders. They’d hidden behind new names.

This should be thrown out of decent society and libraries and kept to clubs and tv entertainment for adults, or Biggins in panto, and children safeguarded.

Unfortunately these people are hanging onto the trans’ coat-tails and getting away with behaviour they never would if they were dressed as your average male. 

And I do like some drag. This is just way out there though.


----------



## mrs phas

Drag is a caricature of women, not a stereotype
queens and Kings rarely, if ever, go out "dressed" in public, most are gay (in fact if you watched RuPaul drag race the only two who are not are pilloried by the others and told they're not 'real queens') they portray women as waspish, cruel, drunks and sluts or, like cissie and ada, careworn gossips.
I find it somewhat galling that there is backlash against true trans, who just want to go about their business, unseen, quietly, mostly unconfrontingly, passing on a daily basis, in jobs they've won due to their experience, rather than ticking a box, admirers of the women their genetic make up denied them to be.
Said backlash showing, in a lot of circumstances, as true hatred,
Just because the person had a genetic mishap in the womb,
Yet
These same people, will happily invite Brendan Caroll into their living rooms and probably make the show the most watched over Christmas, again
I honestly believe that, in the future,
(With respect, maybe a long time in the future, from this threads small sample)
the struggles that true trans currently go through, will be aligned with the struggles gay men went through, to be recognised as neurotypical rather than aberrant,
and
(gasp, shock, horror)
people of colour have gone through to be recognised as
human rather than animals,
citizens, the same as you and I,
to destroy segregation and subjugation,
and,
yes,
Be able to lead one of the worse countries throughout black history, and, arguably, do it well

And so drag WILL be seen on a par with blackface
and
The early 2000's regarded with the same distaste we now view the early to late middling1900's with the minstrels and the fear and the shows/films it all produced and, yes, the blackface and racial appropriation. ( although to me, cultural appropriation that is a different argument all together, cornrows do not a racist make)
So, whilst I can see where your arguments lie now, I believe and sincerely hope things will change for the better


----------



## Elles

What is happening to kids is terrifying. I watched a (subtitled) programme from Sweden last night, where clinicians, doctors and representatives from both sides of the debate were featured and it beggars belief.

https://www.svtplay.se/video/248539...g-granskning-sasong-20-the-trans-train-part-2

If women go to extremes too, they will find themselves hoist by their own petard though.

I think we all agree more than we disagree.

I think blackface is different from drag, because makeup, high heels, wigs and dresses aren't a woman. I'm a woman and I don't own high heels or a dress. However a person of colour is who they are and white people putting on black make up to parody a natural race and skin colour in a racist society is quite rightly unacceptable.


----------



## havoc

I'm just completely confused by the whole thing and I daren't open my mouth on the subject in company in case I say the wrong thing. I don't think I've ever felt so intimidated on any other issue. I find the language used to be quite aggressive and designed to 'blame'. I am apparently 'cis' in that I identify with the gender assigned to me at birth. Who 'assigned' that gender to me? Had there been a flurry of male asssignees that day so somebody decided the world was due a female when I was born? I'm female because I'm female, not because there's someone making arbitrary decisions at the birth of every child.


----------



## Jonescat

My nephew is trans, so we have had to either deal with it or hurt someone we love. In our extended family we have had the whole gamut of reactions and it is not an easy process, but first and foremost - its family and we want him to be happy and well, and nothing much else counts. 

Now we are out the other end - I have to say he is happy, happier than he has been in his life as far as I can see, and all the overthinking I did about it all was just so much baloney. It was his life and his body, and he is still the person I have known since he was the proverbial twinkle. 

I still don't entirely get it but I have come to the conclusion I don't have to.


----------



## O2.0

havoc said:


> I'm just completely confused by the whole thing and I daren't open my mouth on the subject in company in case I say the wrong thing. I don't think I've ever felt so intimidated on any other issue. I find the language used to be quite aggressive and designed to 'blame'. I am apparently 'cis' in that I identify with the gender assigned to me at birth. Who 'assigned' that gender to me? Had there been a flurry of male asssignees that day so somebody decided the world was due a female when I was born? I'm female because I'm female, not because there's someone making arbitrary decisions at the birth of every child.


This is just the way I understand it for whatever that is worth. 
You, actually I'll use I just to not personalize it - I was assigned a gender at birth based on my physical appearance. No ultrasound was done to check for internal organs. No blood test was done to check chromosomes. I was simply labeled female based on the presence of a vagina and the absence of a penis.

For me this worked just fine, but the problem arises when you take in to account that humans are wonderfully complex and diverse. And just as any organ or limb can develop differently, so can sex organs. I've just been listening to a podcast with Kendra Little who was born with a vagina, but has internal testes, no uterus, and no ovaries. Oh and despite having been 'assigned' the sex of female at birth, she has XY chromosomes. 
Her condition, androgen insensitivity syndrome was diagnosed at puberty.

I'll reiterate, that intersex conditions like AIS are not the same thing as transgender at all. Though the two get confused and lumped in together a good bit. Oh, and I also learned that the term hermaphrodite is a) inaccurate, and b) not appreciated by the intersex community. Good to know.

There are a lot of intersex people who not only are assigned a gender at birth, but also have surgeries as infants, obviously without their consent, to help them appear as one gender or another. Often without even looking at the rest of the picture, like chromosomal make-up. I agree that this sort of thing needs to stop.

But again this is an intersex conversation, which is separate from a conversation about transgender.

The more I learn, the more I realize I have a lot to learn. More and more I think that each situation needs to be taken individually on a case by case basis. 
And of course always with compassion.


----------



## Elles

DSDs shouldn't even come into this discussion. I've linked it before, but I'll copy/paste part of it. People with these disorders are not transgender people and our sex is observed at birth. Their sex is assigned at birth, because it may have to change later, or is uncertain, that's where trans activists stole it from. The sex of normal, healthy babies, is observed and can't be changed with drugs and surgery. I sincerely wish it could.

http://mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/12/18/what-is-dignity/

"The only way we can counter this harmful narrative, is to out ourselves anyway. I have to write a blog, sit in front of strangers and describe my genitals, fertility status and medical history, just to be able to say "what trans activists say about us isn't true. It's unkind, unscientific and harmful". Where's the dignity in that? Where's the newspaper column inches and TV shows for us? Where's the outrage that a group of actually vulnerable people, just getting on with their lives, wanting to blend in and not be paraded for someone else's party, are being mis-sexed?

There is no dignity, no compassion. We're politicised and used as a footnote in someone else's story. We're prevented from being our own spokespeople. No one hears us. No one cares."

Here's some outrage as it is indeed outrageous. :Rage


----------



## Elles

The sad thing is many trans people, detransitioners, families and friends daren't speak. The extremist activists are terrifying, like so many extremists are. If they do speak, they are called truscums and not real trans and thrown out of a community they rely on. 

These activists are crazy and sometimes violent and getting away with it, because people don’t want to be called transphobic. If they didn’t exist and btw most of them are men who have taken little to no attempt to transition, I am really certain we’d have more support for trans gender people and we would have progressed. 

I try to spread the word of sensible, moderate trans people where I can. India Willoughby is quite a well known person in the U.K. who is more reasonable I think. Trans people need to be respected and supported and have the same rights as everyone else. Of course they do. I don’t think most of these people are trans and they are ruining it for everyone else with their extreme agendas, twisting language and use of bullying tactics.  It’s very upsetting imo.


----------



## DogLover1981

I'm not totally sure what to think of all this stuff and I'm not sure I understand it completely. I do feel that people are obsessed with labels nowadays. On the other hand, if the "worst" that people could be in this world is transgender or whatever, I'd consider the world perfect.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> humans are wonderfully complex and diverse.


Exactly why I don't get the obsession with labelling, with finding a neat classification for each newly identified group.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> I am apparently 'cis' in that I identify with the gender assigned to me at birth. Who 'assigned' that gender to me? Had there been a flurry of male asssignees that day so somebody decided the world was due a female when I was born? I'm female because I'm female, not because there's someone making arbitrary decisions at the birth of every child.


I have to confess, I really, really dislike the term 'cis' - if anyone ever tries to call me that, they're going to get told in no uncertain terms to please not use language that offends _ME..._ Or am I, as biological woman, not allowed to disapprove of a wholly unnecessary passive-aggressive label thrown at me by a minority group - particularly one that doesn't seem to have the interests of the genuine trans community at heart.

Incidentally, am I the only one to be wondering that as gender (as opposed to the biological definition of the sex of an individual) is a social construct, how on earth did we reach a place where some people become so unhappy with the way they perceive themselves in terms of gender, that they come to the conclusion they were born with the wrong physical biological body? Are we, as society, so intolerant of people having interests that lie outside of the perceived 'gender norms' that some of those who don't conform to those expectations end up believeing changing their physical body is the only way to be happy? I'm speaking as a lifelong non-conformist myself here (albeit one who couldn't give a toss about what others thought about the things I enjoy doing  ), and I can't help wondering that if I had been born now, would the people who would have just called me a tomboy back in the day now be suggesting I should be taking puberty blockers and considering surgery?


----------



## StormyThai

I wish we still had rep... @Jesthar your post echos what my thoughts are these days.


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> ....... and I can't help wondering that if I had been born now, would the people who would have just called me a tomboy back in the day now be suggesting I should be taking puberty blockers and considering surgery?


That's where I really do find it terrifying. Show me the two year boy who didn't get into his mum's make-up while she was busy or the three year old who doesn't enjoy equal access to a whole range of stuff in a dressing up box whereas my own daughter preferred cam cream from her dad's kit bag to playing with make-up. It doesn't mean they want to identify in any particular way, they're just being kids.


----------



## Cleo38

havoc said:


> That's where I really do find it terrifying. Show me the two year boy who didn't get into his mum's make-up while she was busy or the three year old who doesn't enjoy equal access to a whole range of stuff in a dressing up box whereas my own daughter preferred cam cream from her dad's kit bag to playing with make-up. It doesn't mean they want to identify in any particular way, they're just being kids.


Exactly … although recently my mum did remind me that when I was little I was obsessed with Planet of The Apes & used to wear a General Ursus latex mask all the time


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> Exactly … although recently my mum did remind me that when I was little I was obsessed with Planet of The Apes & used to wear a General Ursus latex mask all the time


Now _that _is weird .  but then again I love watching Mrs Brown's boys. I'll get me coat !


----------



## cheekyscrip

I have been in high school “ one of the boys” regardless of looking like a girl( once on school trip the teacher found me at night in boys’ dorm... playing bridge and when she started telling us off boys cut her short “she is not a girl, just as good guy as any, looks are misleading”and the teacher left.) 
My gir body had nothing to do with my mind and I preferred “boy’s stuff” .

But that is very different from feeling being a man in female’s body.
Woman might not care about make up or fashion and be happy with her gender.

Man might love fashion and gossip being happy in his male body all the same.


----------



## kimthecat

War has broken out on Twitter.
It seems labour Mps including Angela Rainer and Long Baily support a campaign called Labour campaign for trans rights and they want members to support it too. '
Sorry the below photo is large.

No 9 says Organise and fight against transphobic organisations such as Womans Place Uk and LGB Alliance and other transphobic views.

No 10 says Support the expulsion from the Labour party of those who express bigoted transviews.

The WP UK https://twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK 
Violence against women and sex discrimination still exist. Women need reserved places, separate spaces and distinct services. Join our campaign to keep them.

The LBG Alliance https://twitter.com/AllianceLGB
Asserting the right of lesbians, bisexuals and gay men to define ourselves as same-sex attracted.

The thread on twitter is #Expelme with many members threatening to leave. Its gonna be a long long time before Labour get back in power.

Is it just me or is the world getting crazier.


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> It seems labour Mps including Long Baily support a campaign called Labour campaign for trans rights and they want members to support it too. '


And if the trans individual happens to be Jewish? Will they get the full support of the Labour Party?


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> And if the trans individual happens to be Jewish? Will they get the full support of the Labour Party?


Yeah , good point. !


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Is it just me or is the world getting crazier.


Totally bonkers!

They only have one candidate that could win the public round and it looks as if the party don't want her


----------



## Cleo38

With 'pledges' like that I would never support the labour party which is shame as I was always a labour voter until recently. 

Unfortunately transphobia seems to be a word used towards anyone who voices an opinion that may question certain issues such as self identification, concerns regarding safe spaces for women, trans women in sporting events who may have an unfair advantage, etc …. debate is no longer allowed but instead is simply shut down & women who voice concerns are labelled as TERFS.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> And if the trans individual happens to be Jewish? Will they get the full support of the Labour Party?


If the trans individual wishes to be known as trans, doesn't agree that people can change their sex and believes transgender people suffer gender dysphoria, they're called truscum and don't count either.


----------



## mrs phas

theres so many of these nicknames now
truscum
transmed
tucute
transtrender
xenogender
kelpself
and of course the most horrible of all, flung as an insult to those of us who are happy in our birth gender
_*cisgender*_

which means i should be ashamed of being an acceptor of someone else's decision to assign my gender to me, as my gender should be a self concept, not just what others view me as
well as I have a noonoo not a winky, and have had 4 chidren, im pretty sure im what is normally viewed as a girl, woman, mother, and Im damn proud of it

tbh
as a long time advocate and supporter of transgender people, im begining to see a whole different side, maybe because im sheltered in a small market town and therefore, my interactions with the lgbt+ is, somewhat, curtailed, even though ive opened my home to some
whereas those in big cities like london, manchester,irmingham etc are surrounded by all sorts of fluidity and can, if you will, form breakout tribes within the lgbt+ community itself
and
the side im seeing, from within the community, not from 'outsiders' is not a nice one
reminding me a little of the differring skinhead tribes of the 60s+70's


----------



## Cleo38

mrs phas said:


> theres so many of these nicknames now
> truscum
> transmed
> tucute
> transtrender
> xenogender
> kelpself
> and of course the most horrible of all, flung as an insult to those of us who are happy in our birth gender
> _*cisgender*_
> 
> which means i should be ashamed of being an acceptor of someone else's decision to assign my gender to me, as my gender should be a self concept, not just what others view me as
> well as I have a noonoo not a winky, and have had 4 chidren, im pretty sure im what is normally viewed as a girl, woman, mother, and Im damn proud of it
> 
> tbh
> as a long time advocate and supporter of transgender people, im begining to see a whole different side, maybe because im sheltered in a small market town and therefore, my interactions with the lgbt+ is, somewhat, curtailed, even though ive opened my home to some
> whereas those in big cities like london, manchester,irmingham etc are surrounded by all sorts of fluidity and can, if you will, form breakout tribes within the lgbt+ community itself
> and
> the side im seeing, from within the community, not from 'outsiders' is not a nice one
> reminding me a little of the differring skinhead tribes of the 60s+70's


Same here. There was a thread on here a while ago that discussed The Cotton Ceiling & I was shocked tbh. In my 20/30's I had worked with a few trans people & seen the nastiness that was directed at them by some people & it made me feel sick. But seeing how things are going now is very scary IMO & I wonder how 'ordinary' trans people feel about this? But sill me, I forgot they also are not allowed to speak up as we have seen they too are shouted down if they voice any opinion that isn't considered to be the right one!

With some of the decisions regarding self identification it's so open to abuse by male sexual predators & has shown that this isn't just a 'hysterical' concern that us women have (it's so saddening to see that even in 2020 we are are being told we are irrational & to shut up …… yet so familiar!!!). There have been numerous cases of this happening yet many are not given publicity & are even reported that the perpetrator was a woman which also screws crime figures …. which is happening in police forces in the UK already. I find this very worrying


----------



## havoc

mrs phas said:


> the side im seeing, from within the community, not from 'outsiders' is not a nice one


It is aggressive, or at least it certainly intimidates me. It's as if I have to be made to be wrong, keep changing the language so us outsiders can't keep up and we're therefore automatically labelled 'phobic'.

And while I'm digging my own grave - who decided that the term for me is 'cis'? Was it the cis community or has that been imposed on me by those outside my group?


----------



## oliviarussian

OK I’m hoping I don’t sound too dumb here but with all the press about Jameela Jamil coming out as ‘queer’ despite being in a relationship with James Blake since 2015, I can’t seem to understand what queer means nowadays? What’s the difference from her saying she is bisexual? I have read various definitions of the meaning of the new classification but am still none the wiser!

I’ve spent my whole life around gay, bi, trans friends but am finding the whole new need to label everyone just baffling, it feels like a step backwards to me!


----------



## Cleo38

oliviarussian said:


> OK I'm hoping I don't sound too dumb here but with all the press about Jameela Jamil coming out as 'queer' despite being in a relationship with James Blake since 2015, I can't seem to understand what queer means nowadays? What's the difference from her saying she is bisexual? I have read various definitions of the meaning of the new classification but am still none the wiser!


Eh?! Is that a joke?? Hahahaha, how can she be queer if she's in a relationship with a man? Or is this just another bizarre statement that some showbiz people make to gain attention :Jawdrop


----------



## oliviarussian

Cleo38 said:


> Eh?! Is that a joke?? Hahahaha, how can she be queer if she's in a relationship with a man? Or is this just another bizarre statement that some showbiz people make to gain attention :Jawdrop


Definitely not a joke  
Jameela Jamil announces she is 'queer' after backlash over TV role https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51399416


----------



## Cleo38

oliviarussian said:


> Definitely not a joke
> Jameela Jamil announces she is 'queer' after backlash over TV role https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51399416


OMG, that is hilarious!!! I thought I was reading some satirical article initially. So because she's received criticism regarding her TV role she's now decided that she's queer so it's all ok now then ……… Hahahahahahahahaha!! You can't make this sh*t up nowadays


----------



## mrs phas

from wikipedia but.......

*Queer* heterosexuality is said to be demonstrated when *one* or both hetero partners express their gender in nontraditional ways: heterosexual masculine women or feminine men, or by taking up gender roles that vary from the Hegemonic masculinity and femininity of the culture in question.

does that muddle everything more


----------



## Jesthar

mrs phas said:


> *Queer* heterosexuality is said to be demonstrated when *one* or both hetero partners express their gender in nontraditional ways: heterosexual masculine women or feminine men, or by taking up gender roles that vary from the Hegemonic masculinity and femininity of the culture in question.
> 
> does that muddle everything more


But why should someone else get to decide what is 'the norm' (Hegemonic) for me? If somebody wants to label me 'queer' because I hate housework, can't be bothered with makeup outside of special events, do archery rather than embroidery, would rather learn how to build a PC that make a quiche, and have a sandblaster and pillar drill in my shed, then they can stuff _RIGHT _off...


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> do archery rather than embroidery,


Not going to work. I haven't worn a skirt for over a decade - except I always do to shoot so that screws with your norms


----------



## mrs phas

Jesthar said:


> But why should someone else get to decide what is 'the norm' (Hegemonic) for me? If somebody wants to label me 'queer' because I hate housework, can't be bothered with makeup outside of special events, do archery rather than embroidery, would rather learn how to build a PC that make a quiche, and have a sandblaster and pillar drill in my shed, then they can stuff _RIGHT _off...


but thats where gender being a self concept comes in
you can identify as whatever you want
and get the hump if someone mis genders you


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> Not going to work. I haven't worn a skirt for over a decade - except I always do to shoot so that screws with your norms


I have a Greek lady costume for demos  Skirts as a female only domain varies by culture anyway.

I'm also 1/4 Scottish, and they can get _real_ grumpy if you call a kilt a skirt...  Don't recommend trying it unless you don't like your teeth!


----------



## Cleo38

mrs phas said:


> from wikipedia but.......
> 
> *Queer* heterosexuality is said to be demonstrated when *one* or both hetero partners express their gender in nontraditional ways: heterosexual masculine women or feminine men, or by taking up gender roles that vary from the Hegemonic masculinity and femininity of the culture in question.
> 
> does that muddle everything more


WTF??!! We seem to be going backwards ….. nearly everyone I know expresses their gender in non-traditional ways.

This is absolute BS & there seems to be so many bloody labels nobody knows what they mean anymore ….


----------



## O2.0

I don't know what hegemonic masculinity and femininity are?


----------



## Cleo38

O2.0 said:


> I don't know what hegemonic masculinity and femininity are?


Then you are obviously being anti or phobic towards someone …. but am just not sure who!!!


----------



## Jesthar

O2.0 said:


> I don't know what hegemonic masculinity and femininity are?


I believe it means the current 'dominant' opinion on what constitutes being a 'real man' or 'real woman'.

I think 'hegemonic masculitity' is also used as a phrase to describe the promotion of the male dominance of a culture (including defining what is regarded as being a 'real man'), and the subserviant status of women and non-conforming males.


----------



## O2.0

Cleo38 said:


> Then you are obviously being anti or phobic towards someone …. but am just not sure who!!!


Slow day if I haven't offended anyone by noon


----------



## O2.0

Jesthar said:


> I believe it means the current 'dominant' opinion on what constitutes being a 'real man' or 'real woman'.


That's the point though, I don't know what it means to be a 'real' woman, nor the dominant opinion of what that is. I don't think I do at least. 
Surely we have moved past narrow roles of what it means to be a man and a woman?

And surely there is a way to be compassionate of the transgender/transexual community while still being compassionate of the needs of non transgender people as well.


----------



## Cleo38

O2.0 said:


> That's the point though, I don't know what it means to be a 'real' woman, nor the dominant opinion of what that is. I don't think I do at least.
> Surely we have moved past narrow roles of what it means to be a man and a woman?
> 
> And surely there is a way to be compassionate of the transgender/transexual community while still being compassionate of the needs of non transgender people as well.


And that is such a massive problem … why are we returning to such narrow roles again? I heard Eddie Izzard on the radio the other discussing his marathon running. An amazing achievement for anyone but he was saying he was running one in 'girl mode' as apparently he was wearing lipstick. I thought he was just a man who liked to wear dresses & make-up occasionally which if it floats his boat then fine but what's with the 'girl mode' thing? I don't wear lipstick when I run so am I not running in 'girl mode' then?

And what when I rebuild my shed (my weekend job unfortunately!) but wear a skirt & when I'm doing it … is there now a label for that?!


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> And surely there is a way to be compassionate of the transgender/transexual community while still being compassionate of the needs of non transgender people as well.


I don't think compassion and acceptance are what's wanted. It has become tribal, quite aggressively so to the point that it's anything but inclusive.


----------



## O2.0

Cleo38 said:


> And that is such a massive problem … why are we returning to such narrow roles again? I heard Eddie Izzard on the radio the other discussing his marathon running. An amazing achievement for anyone but he was saying he was running one in 'girl mode' as apparently he was wearing lipstick. I thought he was just a man who liked to wear dresses & make-up occasionally which if it floats his boat then fine but what's with the 'girl mode' thing? I don't wear lipstick when I run so am I not running in 'girl mode' then?
> 
> And what when I rebuild my shed (my weekend job unfortunately!) but wear a skirt & when I'm doing it … is there now a label for that?!


*sigh*
Running with lipstick is 'girl' mode? And why 'girl' and not 'woman'? Ugh, it's all so weird and silly really.

Though speaking of running in make-up, my new pet peeve is people who take running selfies in full face of make-up. I haven't figured out what aggravates me, the full face of make-up to go for a run, or looking that good after a run!


----------



## Cleo38

O2.0 said:


> *sigh*
> Running with lipstick is 'girl' mode? And why 'girl' and not 'woman'? Ugh, it's all so weird and silly really.
> 
> Though speaking of running in make-up, my new pet peeve is people who take running selfies in full face of make-up. I haven't figured out what aggravates me, the full face of make-up to go for a run, or looking that good after a run!


Hahahahaha, snap!! I look at some of the selfies certain women (not girls! ) post on the FB running groups I am on & I am amazed … I don't look that good when I'm going out for the evening & have really made an effort let alone after a 5 mile run!!.


----------



## havoc

I never leave the house without wearing tinted moisturiser and lipstick - yes even to run. I’ve been to the gym today to lift weights, same stuff on the face. I’m naturally so pale people stop to ask me if i’m ok if I go out without adding a bit of colour.

To add - they contain SPF so they do have another use.


----------



## Cleo38

havoc said:


> I never leave the house without wearing tinted moisturiser and lipstick - yes even to run. I've been to the gym today to lift weights, same stuff on the face. I'm naturally so pale people stop to ask me if i'm ok if I go out without adding a bit of colour


When I run I sweat so much & my face is bright red …. so attractive! :Kiss


----------



## O2.0

havoc said:


> I never leave the house without wearing tinted moisturiser and lipstick - yes even to run. I've been to the gym today to lift weights, same stuff on the face. I'm naturally so pale people stop to ask me if i'm ok if I go out without adding a bit of colour.
> 
> To add - they contain SPF so they do have another use.


Which goes to show how diverse a label it is to be a woman. I don't do anything fussy as far as hair and make-up, but I like clothes and putting together outfits - sometimes. Most of the time I'm in jeans or outdoor exercise gear, but when duty calls I can put myself together for a date with OH or a professional presentation 

But make-up? Nah... I don't even own a tube of lipstic. Unless tinted lip balm from Burt's Bees counts  
And you couldn't pay me to wear SPF on my face, particularly when I run. I hate how it smells and feels, it stings my eyes, and with sweat it's just intensified. 
I don't like most moisturizers either. I generally use either plain coconut oil or argan oil.


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> Which goes to show how diverse a label it is to be a woman. I don't do anything fussy as far as hair and make-up, but I like clothes and putting together outfits - sometimes. Most of the time I'm in jeans or outdoor exercise gear, but when duty calls I can put myself together for a date with OH or a professional presentation
> 
> But make-up? Nah... I don't even own a tube of lipstic. Unless tinted lip balm from Burt's Bees counts
> And you couldn't pay me to wear SPF on my face, particularly when I run. I hate how it smells and feels, it stings my eyes, and with sweat it's just intensified.
> I don't like most moisturizers either. I generally use either plain coconut oil or argan oil.


There is more to being a woman than make up though.. My son when in his goth type phase wore eyeliner, painted his names, had long hair but no one would have mistaken him for a woman. If that makes sense. Or suggested he was trans or gay... As the make up wasn't 'feminine' enough am guessing.


----------



## havoc

O2.0 said:


> And you couldn't pay me to wear SPF on my face, particularly when I run. I hate how it smells and feels, it stings my eyes, and with sweat it's just intensified


Right there with you on straight SPFs.


----------



## havoc

lullabydream said:


> My son when in his goth type phase wore eyeliner


I love a man who can wear eyeliner  It's probably why I still haven't grown out of loving cheesy pop punk.


----------



## catz4m8z

God, its all just total bo**ocks isnt it!!?
I dont want to be told I have to be extra understanding to X or Y group of people coz of persecution or -isms....I want all people to be respected and treated equally. So....you know....'people' rights!
IMO we shouldnt be trying to splinter off into sub groups that others must be forced to accept, we should be trying to come together and celebrate our similarities instead.
As far as Im concerned everybody is worthy of my respect and understanding until they prove otherwise...I dont need some woke idiot telling me how to think. 
(Im probably not supposed to say stuff like that...but luckily I dont care!):Smug


----------



## Lurcherlad

I’m not offended by Izzard’s reference to running in “girl mode”. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t using it as an insult and think some people are offend/insulted far too easily.

I’ve even referred to my own throwing or driving as “a bit girly”.

Can I, as a “girl” (albeit 59! ) be accused of being sexist (or whatever label applies) against girls too now I wonder?

BTW I identify as female/woman/lady/girl/she and NOT Cis!


----------



## havoc

I’d have been delighted yesterday if I could have described my performance in the gym as ‘girly’ - it was instead that of the pathetic old woman I am. Girly would have implied younger, stronger, just all round better to me in that situation so no insult at all.


----------



## Calvine

oliviarussian said:


> Jameela Jamil announces she is 'queer'


 Wasn't ''queer'' a rather unflattering term for a homosexual man back in the day? No-one would ever say, hey, guess what, I'm queer. So what exactly is ''queer'' these days?


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> Can I, as a "girl" (albeit 59! ) be accused of being sexist (or whatever label applies) against girls too now I wonder?


 I hope it doesn't get you banned from PF, @Lurcherlad!


----------



## Elles

Lurcherlad said:


> BTW I identify as female/woman/lady/girl/she and NOT Cis!


I don't 'identify' as anything, nor does anyone else. We just are.


----------



## Elles

Keir Starmer has signed this one according to the Guardian:


----------



## havoc

And this is where it will become divisive and get heated. The promise of special mental health services or housing for one section of society when what we have available across the board is inadequate won't go down well. It is either a pipe dream or will be seen as taking scant resources from the many for the select few.


----------



## Elles

I think a transphobe if it is a thing, could be a woman who becomes afraid of another woman, because she takes testosterone and has a mastectomy. She might then seem to have an have an irrational fear. Of trans identified women and detransitioners. She may want to refuse them access to female only spaces and necessary preventative care, such as smear tests. 

A woman who is hyper vigilant and/or afraid of men, maybe having suffered trauma, is afraid of men, not trans people. What the man wears, or what surgeries he undergoes doesn’t make him less of a threat to her, when she instinctively views him as male due to what he can’t change, not what he can.

Has anyone put this view forward?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I think a transphobe if it is a thing, could be a woman who becomes afraid of another woman, because she takes testosterone and has a mastectomy. She might then seem to have an have an irrational fear. Of trans identified women and detransitioners. She may want to refuse them access to female only spaces and necessary preventative care, such as smear tests.
> 
> A woman who is hyper vigilant and/or afraid of men, maybe having suffered trauma, is afraid of men, not trans people. What the man wears, or what surgeries he undergoes doesn't make him less of a threat to her, when she instinctively views him as male due to what he can't change, not what he can.
> 
> Has anyone put this view forward?


Generally speaking, any time someone has suggested that there are biological women who might legitimately be traumatised by or object to someone with the obvious physical attributes of a man entering a woman only space, the proposed 'solution' has been to remove the biological woman from the space.


----------



## lullabydream

Jesthar said:


> Generally speaking, any time someone has suggested that there are biological women who might legitimately be traumatised by or object to someone with the obvious physical attributes of a man entering a woman only space, the proposed 'solution' has been to remove the biological woman from the space.


When in reality, those who are trans aren't usually loud and proud and wouldn't feel comfortable themselves going to these so called open spaces till they fit 'comfortably' and would arguably be the shy person in the corner anyway...
However those who think that you just say hey am this gender and do nothing to represent them this way are the ones that shout loudest, the ones that get heard, that aren't atypical trans people who want to be the opposite gender, who have a medically assessed gender dysthoria and who will go through as possibly can; not every one can medically transition but they will choose to do everything in their power to be known as the opposite gender they were born with, fitting in to society. Recognising trans people do have rights in this country and generally just want to get on with life rather than be thought of in the same bracket as those who shout loudest


----------



## Cleo38

Whilst not strictly speaking about women's right but on the topic of transgender discussions & transphobia, did anyone just hear the news regarding this case? https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...t-ruling-hate-crime-free-speech-a4362181.html

It is frightening the simply expressing an opinion, engaging in debate (as we are doing on this thread) can be reported & have police involvement. Although in Mr Miller's case the judge ruled the police were OTT in their handling it seems that the police can & do log these 'non-crime hate incidents' …. although in reality they are not 'hate' incidents but a difference of opinion.

But how did it come to the police (who I thought were over stretched) are visiting people at their work places to warn them not to even discuss certain topics??!! Maybe we could all be reported for our views on here


----------



## havoc

Cleo38 said:


> But how did it come to the police (who I thought were over stretched) are visiting people at their work places to warn them not to even discuss certain topics??!! Maybe we could all be reported for our views on here


I think this is where a lot of the 'fear' comes from, certainly does with me. This week's acceptable language will be out of fashion, deemed offensive and replaced by next week and I'll be deemed phobic and inflammatory if I don't keep up. Easiest to say nothing but silence can be interpreted as disapproval.


----------



## Cleo38

havoc said:


> I think this is where a lot of the 'fear' comes from, certainly does with me. This week's acceptable language will be out of fashion, deemed offensive and replaced by next week and I'll be deemed phobic and inflammatory if I don't keep up. Easiest to say nothing but silence can be interpreted as disapproval.


Yes, there is fear & I think this is being created by not allowing discussion. They are currently discussing this on the Jeremey Vine Show on R2


----------



## Elles

I think they’d have trouble arresting practically the whole country, including LGBT+ and allies who know sex is binary, make jokes about it and are discussing it now tbh. By the time they’ve recorded 1 billion none crime hate incidents and logged every Brit’s details on their super computer, it’ll have no impact. This is why my first sentence in the opening post was warning to be cautious then though. I think now the cat is out of the bag over the attack on free speech and expression, they’ll struggle to contain it. 

It’s very annoying as groups and youngsters have always had their own ‘in words’ and ordinary people can’t expect to keep up. Previously we wouldn’t want them to, it made us feel special and clever and part of the in crowd. Today youngsters want oldies arrested if they don’t know the latest acceptable opinion and descriptors. This is what happens when we put the school bullies in charge. Haven’t they read Lord of the Flies? :Bookworm


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Haven't they read Lord of the Flies


I find myself more and more thinking it's all getting very Animal Farm and I'm definitely not in the more equal group


----------



## Sairy

I've just caught up with this thread. Must have missed it first time around, but I've finally read through the whole thing. It's such an interesting and difficult subject. Equality should be just that - not the advancement of the rights of one group of people to the detriment of another. We must find a way of making society inclusive for everyone, which should absolutely not mean silencing those who have genuine concerns. On a practical basis I don't know what this looks like in terms of changing rooms and womens' refuges, but there must be ways of achieving this if people can engage in respectful conversation without labelling others as transphobic, perverted or whatever other insults that get thrown around.

Most LGBTQ+ (I don't even know what all the letters are anymore and I'm supposed to be part of the community!) just want to be able to go about their lives as normal people and be accepted as part of society. Most of us accept that our lives and choices may make some people uncomfortable and some people will disagree with aspects of our lives (my choice to have a child with another woman for example) but as long as we do not face discrimination or harassment and are allowed to go about our lives we are ok with that. For that to have happened of course we have relied upon activists and allies who have, over the years, opened up minds and pushed for us to have access to things such as equality in employment, equal marriage and just the ability to be able to walk through the street without fear of being attacked (or if an attack occurs for this to be a criminal offence). These things have been granted and are much appreciated. As far as I am aware they do not affect other members of society in a negative way. However, unfortunately there is a minority of people who feel that they must push and push and push to the point that the rights of others are infringed upon. An example is where religious freedom is affected - some gay marriage activists were pushing for religious organisations to be forced to perform gay marriage ceremonies. How is that equality? I believe there is a similar thing going on here with the advancement of trans rights. It makes me feel really uncomfortable and the result is that instead of gaining acceptance for trans people this aggressive attitude only serves to alienate some members of society even further. Should trans people be accepted as part of society and be allowed to live their lives without fear of persecution? Of course they should! Should their wellbeing and interests be considered when making laws? Yes absolutely, as should the wellbeing and interests of the rest of society.



Jesthar said:


> I have to confess, I really, really dislike the term 'cis' - if anyone ever tries to call me that, they're going to get told in no uncertain terms to please not use language that offends _ME..._ Or am I, as biological woman, not allowed to disapprove of a wholly unnecessary passive-aggressive label thrown at me by a minority group - particularly one that doesn't seem to have the interests of the genuine trans community at heart.
> 
> Incidentally, am I the only one to be wondering that as gender (as opposed to the biological definition of the sex of an individual) is a social construct, how on earth did we reach a place where some people become so unhappy with the way they perceive themselves in terms of gender, that they come to the conclusion they were born with the wrong physical biological body? Are we, as society, so intolerant of people having interests that lie outside of the perceived 'gender norms' that some of those who don't conform to those expectations end up believeing changing their physical body is the only way to be happy? I'm speaking as a lifelong non-conformist myself here (albeit one who couldn't give a toss about what others thought about the things I enjoy doing  ), and I can't help wondering that if I had been born now, would the people who would have just called me a tomboy back in the day now be suggesting I should be taking puberty blockers and considering surgery?


This pretty much sums up my feelings. It does feel like we are taking a step backwards. IMO there are far more differences within the sexes than there are between them. Just because a woman works as a mechanic, drinks lager, watches football, wears mens clothes and dates other women it doesn't make her any less of a woman than someone who does stereotypically female things. I am not denying that there are people who have gender dysphoria, but I think that people are too quick to label someone as trans these days and, as has been pointed out, there are people who have transitioned and later regretted it.

Giving puberty blockers to children, and particularly children undergoing gender reassignment surgery, makes me very uncomfortable. I agree that there are probably some parents who fear their child may be at risk of suicide if they do not go down this route (and I am not denying that trans teenagers are at risk of suicide), but there are other ways to support them than encouraging them down the route of something that is irreversible. Teenagers can be all over the place trying to figure out who they are, as can many people in their 20s - I know I was! Indeed there are plenty of people who come out as gay and then later on end up with a partner of the opposite sex. Gender reassignment is so final and should IMO be left until the child has reached adulthood and can make a mature decision. Meanwhile there should be no issue with, for example, a biological boy who considers himself to be female dressing as a woman, giving himself a woman's name and to all intents and purposes living as a woman. These things are all temporary if he decides at a later date that he is actually male. If my George decides he wants a doll to play with then that's fine. If he wants to wear dresses, call himself Georgina, do ballet and wear lipstick (or do whatever other things that aren't typically boy things) then he is welcome to do so. If he wants puberty blockers or to have an operation to permanently change his genitalia when he is still a minor then I would not be able to support this. As his mother I would do what I feel is right, which would be to allow him the time and maturity to be able to reflect on this decision, as it would likely be the biggest decision he would ever make and there would be no going back.


----------



## Smolmaus

Sairy said:


> If he wants to wear dresses, call himself Georgina, do ballet and wear lipstick (or do whatever other things that aren't typically boy things) then he is welcome to do so. If he wants puberty blockers or to have an operation to permanently change his genitalia when he is still a minor then I would not be able to support this. As his mother I would do what I feel is right, which would be to allow him the time and maturity to be able to reflect on this decision, as it would likely be the biggest decision he would ever make and there would be no going back.


Puberty blockers are what would be used to give him the time he needs to be sure. They are not irreversible and are exactly what you want him to have access to if he feels conflicted about his gender identity in the future. So he has time. Going through the puberty process that doesn't match your gender identity makes life a lot harder for a young trans person so puberty blockers either give you the time to decide you're actually okay with things as they are, or they make it easier to transition in the future. For minors who know they are trans or even who think they might be it's a safe choice, to give them time.

Gender reassignment on a minor does not happen, is not legally allowed to happen and nobody is asking for it to happen. Well, it does happen on some people who are born with external genitals that qualify as "intersex" but honestly that's a completely different issue.


----------



## Sairy

Smolmaus said:


> Puberty blockers are what would be used to give him the time he needs to be sure. They are not irreversible and are exactly what you want him to have access to if he feels conflicted about his gender identity in the future. So he has time. Going through the puberty process that doesn't match your gender identity makes life a lot harder for a young trans person so puberty blockers either give you the time to decide you're actually okay with things as they are, or they make it easier to transition in the future. For minors who know they are trans or even who think they might be it's a safe choice, to give them time.
> 
> Gender reassignment on a minor does not happen, is not legally allowed to happen and nobody is asking for it to happen. Well, it does happen on some people who are born with external genitals that qualify as "intersex" but honestly that's a completely different issue.


Is there any information on any lasting effects of puberty blockers though? It would concern me that someone could be putting their physical health at risk by taking these.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I don’t see how there can’t be a high possibility of an impact from taking hormone blockers.

At aged 35 I had IVF which involved manipulating my hormones and there is scientific evidence that puts me at higher risk of ovarian cancer in later life. 

Women on HRT are told of the possible risks (and benefits) from the drugs which affect hormone levels.

It’s far too early to describe hormone blockers as safe imo.

I think supporting a child emotionally through puberty, which can be a difficult time for a lot of adolescents, is preferable to messing with hormones, in most cases.


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> some people are offend/insulted far too easily.


 Some people are professional ''offendees'' aren't they! It's actually getting ridiculous; you have to hesitate and think before you speak these days in case someone deems your comment/opinion offensive. Even on the forum you have to double-check what you've written in case someone takes it amiss.


----------



## havoc

Lurcherlad said:


> It's far too early to describe hormone blockers as safe imo


Or any drugs. It is so difficult because I wouldn't want anyone to be dreadfully unhappy and I don't have the expertise to condemn treatment at age x or y.

Where it started to get very worrying was seeing reports of parents (usually mothers) saying their very young children had already decided they weren't their 'assigned' gender. One I saw had this mother claiming her four year old son had already declared himself female and so she clothed him only in dresses. Why? Why not gender neutral clothes? Frankly my impression was that the mother wanted a girl and had reassigned her child to that end. Nobody would dare question it though would they.


----------



## Cleo38

Smolmaus said:


> Puberty blockers are what would be used to give him the time he needs to be sure. They are not irreversible and are exactly what you want him to have access to if he feels conflicted about his gender identity in the future. So he has time. Going through the puberty process that doesn't match your gender identity makes life a lot harder for a young trans person so puberty blockers either give you the time to decide you're actually okay with things as they are, or they make it easier to transition in the future. For minors who know they are trans or even who think they might be it's a safe choice, to give them time.
> 
> Gender reassignment on a minor does not happen, is not legally allowed to happen and nobody is asking for it to happen. Well, it does happen on some people who are born with external genitals that qualify as "intersex" but honestly that's a completely different issue.


But there are no real understandings of long terms effects, The study carried out by GIDS was flawed (eventually cleared of wrongdoing) & still does not provide annual data regarding the medication. There have also been concerns regarding the increased level of suicidal thoughts & other mental health problems among patients using the blockers. No one really know the long term effects these drugs can have yet.


----------



## Sairy

havoc said:


> Or any drugs. It is so difficult because I wouldn't want anyone to be dreadfully unhappy and I don't have the expertise to condemn treatment at age x or y.
> 
> Where it started to get very worrying was seeing reports of parents (usually mothers) saying their very young children had already decided they weren't their 'assigned' gender. One I saw had this mother claiming her four year old son had already declared himself female and so she clothed him only in dresses. Why? Why not gender neutral clothes? Frankly my impression was that the mother wanted a girl and had reassigned her child to that end. Nobody would dare question it though would they.


When I was four I used to go around pretending to be a horse, but no one would think that I was born as the wrong species. I actually don't care if a boy wants to wear dresses or play with dolls etc., but 4 years old is far too early for them to decide that they have been born in the wrong body IMO.


----------



## havoc

Sairy said:


> When I was four I used to go around pretending to be a horse, but no one would think that I was born as the wrong species. I actually don't care if a boy wants to wear dresses or play with dolls etc., but 4 years old is far too early for them to decide that they have been born in the wrong body IMO.


What really stood out was that this mother only dressed him in dresses, very few girls only wear dresses. I remember wishing I was a boy and saying so. Back then it was because boys and girls were treated differently, not because I was in the wrong body. At school girls did cookery while boys did woodwork for goodness sake.

To me kids are sort of gender neutral. In an ideal world there wouldn't be any difference in how we treat them. For example, I am in favour of schools having exactly the same rules about hair, make up and jewellery across the board. Give children and teenagers the space to explore who they are in every way and then they'll be confident in their own decisions at an appropriate time.


----------



## Cleo38

Sairy said:


> When I was four I used to go around pretending to be a horse, but no one would think that I was born as the wrong species. I actually don't care if a boy wants to wear dresses or play with dolls etc., but 4 years old is far too early for them to decide that they have been born in the wrong body IMO.


And this is where I struggle to understand … some children have all sorts of ideas of who they are. This is also the case for older children, puberty is an incredibly difficult time & many children struggle with their identity & have body issues. Surely we should encouraging these children to be at one with their bodies not tell them that they need to take medication, have surgery to alter them & confirm they are 'wrong'


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> Or any drugs. It is so difficult because I wouldn't want anyone to be dreadfully unhappy and I don't have the expertise to condemn treatment at age x or y.
> 
> Where it started to get very worrying was seeing reports of parents (usually mothers) saying their very young children had already decided they weren't their 'assigned' gender. One I saw had this mother claiming her four year old son had already declared himself female and so she clothed him only in dresses. Why? Why not gender neutral clothes? Frankly my impression was that the mother wanted a girl and had reassigned her child to that end. Nobody would dare question it though would they.


That's the trouble - I do think some kids and even parents are getting caught up in the furore around gender and making very costly decisions for the future.

My own 3 year old boy dressed in a tutu at Nursery and I was told "don't panic, it doesn't mean anything". I replied that I wasn't worried  I hadn't given it a moment's thought. He was just playing "dress up" - it's what kids do.

Gender is so prominent in the media nowadays and I worry that some kids are being allowed (or led) down a path which, if left to grow and mature (supported, counselled if nec) they will find their own, which could allow them back to where they began.

Not everyone who has a confusing time through puberty (and dabbles) will end up gay for instance. But, biologically they won't have been changed, possibly irreversibly.


----------



## Cleo38

Lurcherlad said:


> That's the trouble - I do think some kids and even parents are getting caught up in the furore around gender and making very costly decisions for the future.
> 
> My own 3 year old boy dressed in a tutu at Nursery and I was told "don't panic, it doesn't mean anything". I replied that I wasn't worried  I hadn't given it a moment's thought. He was just playing "dress up" - it's what kids do.
> 
> Gender is so prominent in the media nowadays and I worry that some kids are being allowed (or led) down a path which, if left to grow and mature (supported, counselled if nec) they will find their own, which could allow them back to where they began.
> 
> Not everyone who has a confusing time through puberty (and dabbles) will end up gay for instance. But, biologically they won't have been changed, possibly irreversibly.


Yes, I don't understand why such rigid gender stereotypes are now being pushed again. There had been so much discussion around toxic masculinity that I thought things were changing. Why can't people accept so much variation? I don't understand that in 2020 we are still thinking in such old fashioned ways


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000f7ms

Jeremy Vine show today, hopefully I've got the link right. About 30 minutes in, a founder of the LGB Alliance (who are one of the groups accused of transphobia in the Labour pledges) debates with a trans activist. She (the LGB spokeswoman) came across very well I thought.

Two trans women callers (men who identify as women) with completely opposing views I thought were interesting. The first was the usual 'trans women are women'. The second denied it and talked about stereotypes.


----------



## Elles

Sairy said:


> When I was four I used to go around pretending to be a horse


You would be trans species, or 'Otherkin' as they want to be known.

An extreme example would be this one of dragon gender, it is an actual thing and becoming more popular.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/02/27/tran...s-reptile-spent-42000-turning-dragon-7345554/


----------



## Sairy

Elles said:


> You would be trans species, or 'Otherkin' as they want to be known.
> 
> An extreme example would be this one of dragon gender, it is an actual thing and becoming more popular.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2018/02/27/tran...s-reptile-spent-42000-turning-dragon-7345554/


Wowzer! That's pretty scary.


----------



## mrs phas

Sairy said:


> Wowzer! That's pretty scary.


But what is it that scares us (me included)

The fact that they not only self gender as a woman, but then go on to self trans species themselves as a dragon ?(should that be trans myth them self?)
The tatts?
The body mods?
The whole look together?
The way they act
The fact that it makes us feel uncomfortable
The fact it brings out our hidden judgemental side
(we all have one, even if, for a slight second, one looks at someone and thinks 'what do they look like'its making a judgement)
Is it our instinctual deep rooted fight or flight mode that, subconsciously sees a snake/dragon, and makes us fearful

What is it about their life that scares us?
We don't know them, they're probably a lovely person, with a body mod desire.
They're not pushing it on us, they're not asking for dragon toilets to be installed, or dragon only havens
So what is so scarey about them?

I'll be first, and admit I took one look and thought
'What the f***k ! What a blooming nutter'
And shied away
Then I listened and watched
I still think they're a nutter, but a harmless one, that's probably taken more abuse than given it
What's that saying?
Not my monkey
Not my circus

If a bloke can self gender as a woman
Then I'm happy for them to call themself a dragon
I know which one I think I'd trust more


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> You would be trans species, or 'Otherkin' as they want to be known.
> 
> An extreme example would be this one of dragon gender, it is an actual thing and becoming more popular.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2018/02/27/tran...s-reptile-spent-42000-turning-dragon-7345554/


Hahahaha!!! Tbh I don't care if someone wants to do this to themselves but they are not 'trans species' & regardless of how they look they will still die human


----------



## Sairy

mrs phas said:


> But what is it that scares us (me included)
> 
> The fact that they not only self gender as a woman, but then go on to self trans species themselves as a dragon ?(should that be trans myth them self?)
> The tatts?
> The body mods?
> The whole look together?
> The way they act
> The fact that it makes us feel uncomfortable
> The fact it brings out our hidden judgemental side
> (we all have one, even if, for a slight second, one looks at someone and thinks 'what do they look like'its making a judgement)
> Is it our instinctual deep rooted fight or flight mode that, subconsciously sees a snake/dragon, and makes us fearful
> 
> What is it about their life that scares us?
> We don't know them, they're probably a lovely person, with a body mod desire.
> They're not pushing it on us, they're not asking for dragon toilets to be installed, or dragon only havens
> So what is so scarey about them?
> 
> I'll be first, and admit I took one look and thought
> 'What the f***k ! What a blooming nutter'
> And shied away
> Then I listened and watched
> I still think they're a nutter, but a harmless one, that's probably taken more abuse than given it
> What's that saying?
> Not my monkey
> Not my circus
> 
> If a bloke can self gender as a woman
> Then I'm happy for them to call themself a dragon
> I know which one I think I'd trust more


I am not doubting that they might be a lovely person and I have no issue with what adults choose to do to their own bodies, I just find the look scary if I'm honest. But there are various looks that creep me out somewhat. Heck I'm sure I probably creep some people out sometimes.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000f7ms
> 
> Jeremy Vine show today, hopefully I've got the link right. About 30 minutes in, a founder of the LGB Alliance (who are one of the groups accused of transphobia in the Labour pledges) debates with a trans activist. She (the LGB spokeswoman) came across very well I thought.
> 
> Two trans women callers (men who identify as women) with completely opposing views I thought were interesting. The first was the usual 'trans women are women'. The second denied it and talked about stereotypes.


Yes, it was interesting but I didn't catch all of it as I had to take the dogs out.

I found it interesting when the LGB woman bought up the subject of lesbians being accused of transphobia for not wanting to date transwomen but the trans activist sort of side stepped that. Tbh am surprised that there was debate as many trans activists have refused platforms with anyone who disputes them on multiple occasions when offered debate by the BBC. I was pleasantly surprised that there was a discussion where both parities were able to speak to each other directly.


----------



## havoc

mrs phas said:


> But what is it that scares us (me included
> ................
> 
> The tatts?


Unlikely in my case case. Mine are probably bigger ...... and better


----------



## mrs phas

Sairy said:


> I am not doubting that they might be a lovely person and I have no issue with what adults choose to do to their own bodies, I just find the look scary if I'm honest. But there are various looks that creep me out somewhat. Heck I'm sure I probably creep some people out sometimes.


as I said,
me too!


----------



## havoc

It isn’t how anyone chooses to look that I find scary. It’s that a particular group seems to want to demonise the rest of us when we’re perfectly happy to let anyone and everyone get on with the quiet enjoyment of their lives.

Sometimes it feels as if that’s the last thing they want, as if the anger is because we’re not making them separate and special enough.


----------



## Cleo38

God, Labour is just so depressing now. WTF has happened to the party?!! …. https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/...Jy4zcI4uqx-ZeLmnOiUAtSxyXZMRW-IKLc_EmZPYSOIp4


----------



## Elles

They’ve gone crazy. Now Dawn Butler has said babies are born no sex at all and unless we agree absolutely that trans women are women, ie anyone who says they are, we must not discuss it, there is no debate.

I might have already posted it, but I did see one of the leading doctors in the field explaining how you know your baby’s sex. A boy might undo the poppers on his rompers to make it look like a dress, a girl might take her hair clips out. Then you know your boy is actually a girl and your girl is a boy. So I guess new parents just have to wait a bit longer. I presume kids can just identify out of or into things like fgm, religious oppression and child marriage.

The kids today are being told the world will end in 10 or whatever years, there’s no such thing as boys or girls and prostitution is just another career choice. How do they cope? Especially if their family has no stability. How did my generation send the following generation down this path, or is it just that there really is something in the water (food, air)?


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> They've gone crazy. Now Dawn Butler has said babies are born no sex at all and unless we agree absolutely that trans women are women, ie anyone who says they are, we must not discuss it, there is no debate.
> 
> I might have already posted it, but I did see one of the leading doctors in the field explaining how you know your baby's sex. A boy might undo the poppers on his rompers to make it look like a dress, a girl might take her hair clips out. Then you know your boy is actually a girl and your girl is a boy. So I guess new parents just have to wait a bit longer. I presume kids can just identify out of or into things like fgm, religious oppression and child marriage.
> 
> The kids today are being told the world will end in 10 or whatever years, there's no such thing as boys or girls and prostitution is just another career choice. How do they cope? Especially if their family has no stability. How did my generation send the following generation down this path, or is it just that there really is something in the water (food, air)?


The world must be in a state if Richard Madeley is the one talking sense!


----------



## Sairy

Elles said:


> They've gone crazy. Now Dawn Butler has said babies are born no sex at all and unless we agree absolutely that trans women are women, ie anyone who says they are, we must not discuss it, there is no debate.
> 
> I might have already posted it, but I did see one of the leading doctors in the field explaining how you know your baby's sex. A boy might undo the poppers on his rompers to make it look like a dress, a girl might take her hair clips out. Then you know your boy is actually a girl and your girl is a boy. So I guess new parents just have to wait a bit longer. I presume kids can just identify out of or into things like fgm, religious oppression and child marriage.
> 
> The kids today are being told the world will end in 10 or whatever years, there's no such thing as boys or girls and prostitution is just another career choice. How do they cope? Especially if their family has no stability. How did my generation send the following generation down this path, or is it just that there really is something in the water (food, air)?


Well I cut my fringe off as a child so presumably that would make me a boy?


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> The world must be in a state if Richard Madeley is the one talking sense!


Sadly he isn't. Watch the car crash. He pretty much said he agreed with her and that it wasn't his opinion that was being argued, he was asking if we should be able to have the debate. To which she said no.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229439480064610308


----------



## lullabydream

Sairy said:


> Well I cut my fringe off as a child so presumably that would make me a boy?


Having worked with children for so long, that happens so often.. Usually near school photo day

My favourite was a young downs boy who was getting the hang of shaving. He had been so good for months, his mum popped out the bathroom for a minute returned and he had shaved both his eyebrows off too! He had lovely eye brows too!


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> Sadly he isn't. Watch the car crash. He pretty much said he agreed with her and that it wasn't his opinion that was being argued, he was asking if we should be able to have the debate. To which she said no.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229439480064610308


Oh, that almost makes me feel better then as it really would be too much if I agreed with him! I was only reading bits at work & it seemed he wasn't being as much of a [email protected] as usual 

So we can't debate, we can't recognise biological differences, we must compete against men in sports despite many having physical advantages, we can't have safe spaces, criminals can decide who they are where they should serve their time, violent sex offenders who want access to vulnerable women who can't escape them will be given that opportunity as it is their 'right', women's refuges, etc will be denied funding if they object to men being given access, lesbians must consider men as sexual partners if those men identify with being a woman, ..... it is absolute madness!


----------



## Elles

Sairy said:


> Well I cut my fringe off as a child so presumably that would make me a boy?


Today you would be at risk of being transed, yes.  Link to peachyogurt, fruity language and some may be distressed by the content.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I might have already posted it, but I did see one of the leading doctors in the field explaining how you know your baby's sex. A boy might undo the poppers on his rompers to make it look like a dress, a girl might take her hair clips out. Then you know your boy is actually a girl and your girl is a boy. So I guess new parents just have to wait a bit longer. I presume kids can just identify out of or into things like fgm, religious oppression and child marriage.


Er, what?!? How about the option that we don't try and pigeonhole babies based on them exploring their surroundings?!? How can a child young enough to still be in a romper suit even have any concept of what a dress is, let alone the gender message it allegedly sends out?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, gender (as opposed to the biological definition of the sex of an individual) is a social construct - as in a made up set of expctations according to what the bulk of society in a specfic place at that specific time consider to be male and female 'roles' in that society. How on earth did we get to a place where people are being led to believe that not aligning perfectly with a work of fiction means physical biology got it wrong?


----------



## Elles

You aren’t going far enough. Trans women are women and biology is a social construct. It doesn’t matter what their bodies look like. They were born a woman. 

Have you not heard of the female meat and two veg? Biology is correct, it’s your labelling that’s wrong. Some women are perfectly comfortable with their structure and biology, it just looks different from some other women. It’s transphobic to think otherwise. Same sex attracted women are in a particular quandary and at risk of being cancelled, if they don’t accept everyone who says they’re a woman into their pool of potential partners. 

I don’t think people realise how far this goes. It really is a case of anyone who says they’re a woman are a woman, they don’t need to change anything about themselves, because whatever they have is already womanly. You might be talking about people with dysphoria, which is just a very small percentage of trans people. You don’t need dysphoria to be trans, that’s why anyone should be able to self id, we are whoever we say we are and we don’t know what sex babies are, because they can’t say yet.

Insisting that only those with dysphoria who undergo medical or surgical transition are trans, is forcing people to undergo unnecessary interventions just to prove who they truly are and not all can afford it even if they do want it, so we either accept all or none and they will keep going to court to prove it if necessary. The Olympics accepted trans into women’s sports after full surgery until recently, they now only have to demonstrate reduced testosterone levels after being told it’s wrong to expect athletes to undergo potentially harmful surgeries and sterilisation. The next step is campaigning steadily against any and all restrictions or criteria. Looks like Labour has fully bought into it, as did Jo Swinson.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> You aren't going far enough. Trans women are women and biology is a social construct. It doesn't matter what their bodies look like. They were born a woman.
> 
> Have you not heard of the female meat and two veg? Biology is correct, it's your labelling that's wrong. Some women are perfectly comfortable with their structure and biology, it just looks different from some other women. It's transphobic to think otherwise. Same sex attracted women are in a particular quandary and at risk of being cancelled, if they don't accept everyone who says they're a woman into their pool of potential partners.
> .


so does that mean hetero women have to accept FtoM trans into their pool of potential partners too?
despite the fact that, if they are of childbearing age, want, and are physically capable of having children ( utopean society thinking here), they have no chance of having children with them, except l through medical intervention and sperm from an actual physical and biological man
forcing them to have medical intervention to fulfill their, percieved, destiny

( sorry if i havent been very eliquent above or have triggered anyone unable to have children who wants them)


----------



## rona

mrs phas said:


> despite the fact that, if they are of childbearing age, want, and are physically capable of having children ( utopean society thinking here), they have no chance of having children with them,


Therefore saving the planet through population reduction


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> so does that mean hetero women have to accept FtoM trans into their pool of potential partners too?
> despite the fact that, if they are of childbearing age, want, and are physically capable of having children ( utopean society thinking here), they have no chance of having children with them, except l through medical intervention and sperm from an actual physical and biological man
> forcing them to have medical intervention to fulfill their, percieved, destiny
> 
> ( sorry if i havent been very eliquent above or have triggered anyone unable to have children who wants them)


Yes. They're also working on babies from 3 parents. I think I've got this right. Trans man, cells/dna from inside theIr cheek. Implanted into something somehow to make sperm, then used to fertilise an egg. So that the child has dna from both parents, but also from a third party. Something to do with stem cells. It's a bit above my pay grade. 

They have already successfully transplanted wombs and uterus and that kind of thing in animals, their ambition is to transplant unwanted parts from one sex, into the other sex who want them. Swap Shop.

So sorry Rona. You'll have to rely on the Tories and eugenics.

This is all too much for me, I'm going into hiding. :Bag


----------



## Elles

Here's Jamie talking about it and there's even their kitty. Again talking about controversial trans type stuff. Jamie is a trans guy (born female), who is engaged to his girlfriend. I think they've been together since before the transition.


----------



## Sairy

Cleo38 said:


> lesbians must consider men as sexual partners if those men identify with being a woman, ..... it is absolute madness!


This I find absolutely crazy. Everyone has their own idea of what they are looking for in a partner and just because someone doesn't tick your boxes it doesn't mean that you are a whateverphobe. I am almost 34. If I was looking for a new partner I would probably consider people between the ages of around 26-43. I probably wouldn't consider anyone much outside of that age range. Does that make me ageist? I wouldn't consider men either - does that make me a man-hater? And no I probably wouldn't consider a trans woman either, but hey maybe that makes me transphobic. Imagine if all of the potential partners you had previously turned down because you weren't attracted to them turned around and said that you were phobic in some way.


----------



## Cleo38

Sairy said:


> This I find absolutely crazy. Everyone has their own idea of what they are looking for in a partner and just because someone doesn't tick your boxes it doesn't mean that you are a whateverphobe. I am almost 34. If I was looking for a new partner I would probably consider people between the ages of around 26-43. I probably wouldn't consider anyone much outside of that age range. Does that make me ageist? I wouldn't consider men either - does that make me a man-hater? And no I probably wouldn't consider a trans woman either, but hey maybe that makes me transphobic. Imagine if all of the potential partners you had previously turned down because you weren't attracted to them turned around and said that you were phobic in some way.


I agree, how people can demand that a person be attracted to another is madness. I am straight but it doesn't mean I find all men attractive & I doubt I would be attracted to a trans man (although tbh you don't really hear trans men kicking up so much fuss ). I am at the point now where I have been called a TERF on certain groups but I am fine with that, it's supposed to be derogatory but if it is thrown at anyone who questions or expresses doubts regarding certain trans issues then fine with me 

But it seems women & lesbian groups are being silenced all over the world now, so it's not just the UK or USA …. https://www.thepostmillennial.com/lesbians-removed-from-australian-pride-for-transphobia/

How did this happen?


----------



## Elles

Some of these men must have very limited dating pools. It’s probably lucky they find themselves attractive and just have to look in the mirror. Suing women because they won’t wax your balls, complaining that gynaecologists won’t give you a smear, talking about your imaginary periods and chasing journalists with your walking stick aren’t attractive traits in anyone. :Vomit


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> But it seems women & lesbian groups are being silenced all over the world now, so it's not just the UK or USA …. https://www.thepostmillennial.com/lesbians-removed-from-australian-pride-for-transphobia/
> 
> How did this happen?


Seems they didn't like Arielle peaking publicly on YouTube and talking to Rose of Dawn and Blaire White on Rose's channel. The longer this goes on, the more it seems to be autogynephiles and their straight allies who shout the loudest. Most trans people I see, or read about, seem pretty moderate and just want to be left alone, with the same rights as everyone else. Miranda Yardley (trans woman) started a petition to ask for 3rd spaces for trans people and was subjected to some real hate and attacks, because they don't want their own spaces, they want ours.

https://www.change.org/p/boris-john...m_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> They have already successfully transplanted wombs and uterus and that kind of thing in animals.


already done in humans, female to female though
and baby born
which is fantastic news for those born with medical conditions, as the lady who recieved the transplant was

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46438396

should that be extrapolated into trans women though? is that a step too far
would certainly put the arguement that 
" youre a man until you can bear a child"
out of the window


----------



## havoc

Sairy said:


> Does that make me ageist?


Oh absolutely - but as I'm happy in the body I was born in I won't be able to complain so you're safe


----------



## Jonescat

I came across my first gender neutral bathroom today. Looked a bit like they had repurposed a disabled one.


----------



## Billbailey

I shall probably get slaughtered for this but a lot of what is said by trans activists sounds really familiar to this old feminist. I grew up in the 70s and 80s. Woman having her own opinion = shut her up and take away her voice. Woman standing her ground = give her a smack. Woman wants to have rights and be treated equally = denigrate her by calling her names and insulting her looks and behaviour and intelligence.

Funny how it's transwomen who were born in male bodies doing all the shouting and transmen born in women's bodies going pretty much under the radar.


----------



## lullabydream

Jonescat said:


> I came across my first gender neutral bathroom today. Looked a bit like they had repurposed a disabled one.


Aren't disabled toilets gender neutral anyway?


----------



## Jonescat

Yes but this one was labelled gender neutral not disabled. Is that usual?


----------



## lullabydream

Jonescat said:


> Yes but this one was labelled gender neutral not disabled. Is that usual?


No they were not obviously for disabled and might double say as baby changing. However no one has battered an eyelid before disabled toilets have always been gender neutral..
Now all this uproar about gender neutral toilets which already exist...

Places spent fortunes making sure places were disabled friendly as possible with toilets, due to the disability act. Now you say due to a tiny minority shouting loud enough a disabled toilet is rehashed to be gender neutral! It's mind boggling it really is!


----------



## Jesthar

lullabydream said:


> No they were not obviously for disabled and might double say as baby changing. However no one has battered an eyelid before disabled toilets have always been gender neutral..
> Now all this uproar about gender neutral toilets which already exist...
> 
> Places spent fortunes making sure places were disabled friendly as possible with toilets, due to the disability act. Now you say due to a tiny minority shouting loud enough a disabled toilet is rehashed to be gender neutral! It's mind boggling it really is!


Oh, it gets even more fun - hijacking the disabled loos is popular with pretty much no-one aside from building managers in search of an easy fix.

Disabled people quite rightly point out that disabled facilities are designed for people who cannot use normal toilets, and allowing them to be opened up to all and sundry is a threat to their wellbeing, so the only trans using the disabled loo should be those who are disabled. Many disabled toilets already have special locks on you need a specific key to open simply because if you don't people who can't be bothered to walk the extra ten yards to the regular facilites nip into the disabled loo instead. They were installed on the locks in a building a disabled friend works in, for example, after several incidents where disabled people were endangered because of able bodied people habitually using the disabled loos as they were the closest to the office area, and not just for a quick widdle - some people were disappearing in there and spending ages in there. The final straw that led to the locks being installed was one (100% non-disabled - this was checked) gentleman who took to going in there after lunch several times a week and staying in there for at least half an hour, often longer. Goodness knows what he was doing in there, but he had no cause to be in there and was perfectly capable of using the standard loos the rest of the time. At least once that kind of selfish behaviour resulted in a disabled person having to try and use normal loos because they were desperate, and getting stuck, hence the introduction of locks.

Gender activists argue that trans is not a disability, so suggesting they should use disabled loos as a gender neutral facility is demeaning. After that opinion tends to split - some want separate gender neutral toilets, others won't accept anything other than being able to use whatever toilet they want whenever they want, and anyone who has any objections is transphobic and should get over themselves.


----------



## Sairy

The thing is, if a trans female used the ladies loos I wonder how many people would actually notice or say anything. I for one do not really pay any attention to who is in the loos with me. There are plenty of masculine looking women around as well. Is it actually that big of an issue? This is a genuine question btw.


----------



## lullabydream

Sairy said:


> The thing is, if a trans female used the ladies loos I wonder how many people would actually notice or say anything. I for one do not really pay any attention to who is in the loos with me. There are plenty of masculine looking women around as well. Is it actually that big of an issue? This is a genuine question btw.


No we wouldn't notice a trans woman whose actually detransitioning. Which could be just dressing as a woman. If they feel they look like a woman, dress like a woman I am sure they would feel comfortable using the women's toilets. 
However it's the ones that say gender is a choice, and do nothing about becoming a woman, except tell people to call me by a feminine name and use she/her pronouns. That's very basic as apparently there are 100 of genders now.. Different pronouns it all gets complicated. So gender is being a choice but the person is still going to look like a man, to everyone else. This is what the trans activities are doing.. Not actually standing for those real people who we as laymen perceive and have perceived as trans for years and years.


----------



## Sairy

lullabydream said:


> No we wouldn't notice a trans woman whose actually detransitioning. Which could be just dressing as a woman. If they feel they look like a woman, dress like a woman I am sure they would feel comfortable using the women's toilets.
> However it's the ones that say gender is a choice, and do nothing about becoming a woman, except tell people to call me by a feminine name and use she/her pronouns. That's very basic as apparently there are 100 of genders now.. Different pronouns it all gets complicated. So gender is being a choice but the person is still going to look like a man, to everyone else. This is what the trans activities are doing.. Not actually standing for those real people who we as laymen perceive and have perceived as trans for years and years.


Right I see. Don't quite understand how there can be 100 genders *goes to google*


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## lullabydream

Sairy said:


> Right I see. Don't quite understand how there can be 100 genders *goes to google*


Neither can I.. But they will claim anything I think moon is one of them too!
There will be so many pluses on the LBGTQ that they may as well add a dot for infinity at the moment.


----------



## catz4m8z

Sairy said:


> The thing is, if a trans female used the ladies loos I wonder how many people would actually notice or say anything. I for one do not really pay any attention to who is in the loos with me. There are plenty of masculine looking women around as well. Is it actually that big of an issue? This is a genuine question btw.


I def wouldnt notice! The last 2 times Ive had trans patients on the ward Ive never noticed until someone told me...then Ive gone 'oh yeah!' as you could tell if you were looking. Thing is I never really look! If someone tells me they are a man or a woman I just go with it (I dont speak to people any differently based on their gender so pronouns dont really matter).

As for 100 genders?? what a load of rubbish! Im pretty sure there is still only 2.....everything else is just a variation on the theme. Personally Id be happy if I didnt have girl parts (or boy parts for that matter)...it doesnt make me gender neutral, just a female who doesnt care about her gender.


----------



## lullabydream

catz4m8z said:


> dont speak to people any differently based on their gender so pronouns dont really matter


Here's the thing it does matter to trans people.. When people first transition it matters to the person for the people to address them as the she or he.. It's not about the person using them

Sadly its been taken too far that people who are one day claiming to be say female, not doing any of the leg work but saying they are trans female still presenting as male, with full beard wearing male suits for work and just because they have proclaimed to the world, they are trans female, as either stated on this thread or a similar one not using the correct pronoun is getting people into trouble. This is where the world has gone mad..

People actually sit in circles and pronounce their pronouns to each other.. It sounds highly pretentious in my opinion. Surely it should be obvious but it isn't at all. How much in a conversation would your pronoun come up above your actual name


----------



## Lurcherlad

Sairy said:


> Right I see. Don't quite understand how there can be 100 genders *goes to google*


For me, (I've probably posted this already ) the issue would not exist if toilets weren't tucked away behind two sets of doors . If all toilets were secure, self contained cubicles in a relatively open, public area (much like most disabled toilets are now) it wouldn't be an issue. We'd just need Unisex and Disabled (all with baby change facilities) to cover all eventualities and all 100+ genders!

Even I, a fairly robust woman of 59 who hasn't been given a good reason in the past to fear men (rape/abuse, etc.) would be somewhat uneasy to come out of a cubicle in the Ladies and be confronted by a "bloke" (I'm afraid many trans women still look like men). Even more so if they were just identifying as female that day but dressed as a man.


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## Elles

The trouble is they are using the 'we just want to pee' mantra to push self ID and the complete elimination of any single sex spaces. Trans people have been using the toilets they think best for years and I'd agree, hardly anyone has ever said anything, or noticed. For the majority of us a male who tries to present as female, discretely using the women's facilities was no problem at all. They wouldn't do it to get noticed. We aren't transphobic, we're man phobic, because men are usually much stronger than us and if they do attack us, we can't fight them off. As @Lurcherlad says, if we want to all be able to use any toilets, they need redesigning, not just label changing.

Hospitals may need to keep single sex wards and keep vulnerable people safe. I already have an irrational fear of hospitals due to childhood experiences. Reading this made me feel sick.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0211/1114676-girl-sexually-assaulted

The activists and lobbyists are pushing such a sinister agenda, we can no longer afford to give ground on anything. If we accept a man as a women at all, anywhere, we have to accept a man as a woman everywhere and in all situations and we lose our rights. A man exposing his erection in the girl's shower, changing room, or refuge is no longer a pervert flasher arrested for gross indecency, he's a woman in the changing room, shower, or refuge bragging on his twitter feed about upsetting terfs and if he can, taking selfies of it to post. It's already out there.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/why-i...-to-compromise-with-the-transgender-movement/

Men who are trans are not women and shouldn't take our place, or want to. Only men can be trans women. I bet if I raised funding for trans women, they'd know who should get the money. If they are unsafe in men's facilities and I don't doubt they are, it shouldn't mean using women as shields and validation, putting us at more risk than we already are, or taking our achievements and opportunities away from us, which is the cheap and easy option for providers and politicians. They should be joining the campaigns for safe and appropriate options for everyone and I'd be happy to join.

I first heard of moon gender and the hundred genders on Rose of Dawn's YouTube and when Piers Morgan said he identified as a penguin and was told it wasn't allowed. :Chicken


----------



## Cleo38

So given that Lisa Nandy thinks that trans women (despite still being biological males) should be housed in female prisons if given custodial sentences does this mean that trans men (biological women) would be placed in male prisons? Has anyone spoken of this? I would imagine despite being a trans man they would be very vulnerable in a male environment


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> So given that Lisa Nandy thinks that trans women (despite still being biological males) should be housed in female prisons if given custodial sentences does this mean that trans men (biological women) would be placed in male prisons? Has anyone spoken of this? I would imagine despite being a trans man they would be very vulnerable in a male environment


Yes, the question was asked, but it's not what they're asking for. They're saying they should be given the choice to be housed, or use the facilities where they feel most comfortable.


----------



## havoc

Sairy said:


> The thing is, if a trans female used the ladies loos I wonder how many people would actually notice or say anything.


I wouldn't, nor would I care if I did notice. Women's toilets are 100% cubicles anyway so no big deal. However, if I declare myself male tomorrow when I'm in town I'm pretty sure there would be a right commotion as I wandered past all the blokes using the urinals to a cubicle in the gents.

I am seriously considering it btw - the queues for the ladies can be horrendous during an interval in the theatre. I've decided I'm gender fluid and will be whatever is convenient to me in the moment.


----------



## Billbailey

I have actually done that at gigs before now. Took a deep breath, dived through the door saying 'excuse me, excuse me, excuse me....' and locked myself in a cubicle. Had a pee and dashed back out. The men were more concerned about not spraying everywhere to take much notice! And no, I didn't stay to wash my hands and yes, that's totally disgusting but needs must!


----------



## catz4m8z

havoc said:


> Women's toilets are 100% cubicles anyway so no big deal. However, if I declare myself male tomorrow when I'm in town I'm pretty sure there would be a right commotion as I wandered past all the blokes using the urinals to a cubicle in the gents.


I used to clean public loo's and you'd be surprised at how many men dont care that there is a woman in there!:Wideyed
TBH I wouldnt have any issues with public toilets....I cant pee if there is anybody else in there anyways, regardless of gender!:Shy


----------



## havoc

At festival campsites I've only ever known banks of gender neutral portaloos. Nobody cares. Got a memory of Reading having gender specific loos in the arena for some reason but not in the campsites.


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## Cleo38

Whilst I wouldn't find certain unisex toilets a problem (in my town centre there are several single toilets blocks which are not gender specific) but I do find some worrying. Sexual assaults on women & girls is a problem in certain unisex toilets/changing facilities:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...g-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/tran...y-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8447911/girls-unisex-harassment-women-toilets-period/o.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/


----------



## havoc

Cleo38 said:


> Sexual assaults on women & girls is a problem in certain unisex toilets/changing facilities:


Maybe the answer going forward is for all public toilets to be gender neutral and designed in a way which doesn't mean they're tucked away where those with bad intent feel safe.


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## Happy Paws2

It doesn't both me either way, when there has a long queue for the ladies, I and others have given up and used the mens.


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## Elles

havoc said:


> At festival campsites I've only ever known banks of gender neutral portaloos. Nobody cares. Got a memory of Reading having gender specific loos in the arena for some reason but not in the campsites.


Gender neutral toilets, or a third option have been put forward as a solution. The activists say that 'others' them, they don't need gender neutral toilets, or a third option, because they're women and we just need to recognise that fact. Toilets do need redesigning if they are to be shared, but it's not as easy as we might think. Women need more toilets. We take longer and could be menstruating. We can't use urinals designed for men. Men will have to queue more than now if we share, so it inconveniences men too. Busy areas where there are queues, are likely to be safer than quiet areas/times, regardless of where you go.

We still need to be safe. We haven't even touched on things we don't talk about that men get up to in toilets. One suggestion was corridors with separate cubicles, blocked off from floor to ceiling, a mirror and sink in each and cctv in the corridors as a deterrent. Expensive. As 100% of us need toilet facilities, I don't see why councils and other providers need to be overly cheap with them though. One thing I am sure of, a man isn't a man one day, but a woman the next just because he says so and he can darn well pee off. :Mooning


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> The activists say that 'others' them, they don't need gender neutral toilets,


It only 'others' them if they're a separate option. If we just went for gender neutral public loos as the norm that would include everyone. There can be separate urinals for men to ease congestion if you like, such things exist in Europe and I'm pretty sure they do in London too though maybe only at certain times. They look a bit like voting booths


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> It only 'others' them if they're a separate option. If we just went for gender neutral public loos as the norm that would include everyone. There can be separate urinals for men to ease congestion if you like, such things exist in Europe and I'm pretty sure they do in London too though maybe only at certain times. They look a bit like voting booths


of course what they usually do here is stick gender neutral stickers on the ladies and leave the men's as is. Like you say, it's the design of the facilities that needs looking at, not the signage. I don't have a problem with facilities that that are clean and bright and include everyone. At horse and dog shows I've used a hole in the ground under a tent, while praying the tent doesn't blow away. I'm not that fussy. Maybe that's what we actually need. Unattractive, uncomfortable facilities that instil fear, to encourage speedy exit and discourage shenanigans. The next ironing challenge, risky toileting.


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## Billbailey

Given the smell of the average Mens, men does this every time they go in one!


----------



## lullabydream

Billbailey said:


> Given the smell of the average Mens, men does this every time they go in one!


Oh I don't know, as already commented there are a lot that goes on in men's toilets isn't there, day and night! I think men don't care about the smell!


----------



## kimthecat

I'm not clear what happened here. Shes not physically transgender but identifies as one?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-changing-room.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top


Myla Corvidae was born female and now identifies as transgender non-binary 
They were in M&S in Aberdeen and wanted to use the men's changing room 
But the sales assistant did not let them use the facility, saying it's 'only for men' 
M&S admitted a 'mistake' had been made and sent Myla a personal apology


----------



## Billbailey

Yeah.... it's the Daily Mail so I doubt it happened at all but if it did then it's probably very exaggerated and if it's not then there's a major misunderstanding going on and M+S are probably just trying to head it off at the pass. Maybe. I don't know, I could be talking cobblers. The whole thing is too complicated for my little brain.


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> I'm not clear what happened here. Shes not physically transgender but identifies as one?
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-changing-room.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top
> 
> 
> Myla Corvidae was born female and now identifies as transgender non-binary
> They were in M&S in Aberdeen and wanted to use the men's changing room
> But the sales assistant did not let them use the facility, saying it's 'only for men'
> M&S admitted a 'mistake' had been made and sent Myla a personal apology


See those eyebrows are too on fleek to be a male.Ok that's more tongue in cheek than anything . To me that's a female wearing casual clothes this is where the confusion lies to me she doesn't look androgynous.. It's all too confusing this non binary malarkey and pronouns are he and they...

I mean there are some people surely all of us have seen them and its not about looking at the obvious parts, but looking facially at someone and thinking are they a man or woman. Some people might be naturally looking like this, some make the effort others just say today I am non binary which comes under trans umbrella but do very little about it and remain looking the same as before


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## kimthecat

I really don't think M and S should have apologised. maybe men don't like women in their changing rooms either.


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## Billbailey

Do we think that maybe she just couldn't be arsed to walk downstairs to the female changing rooms?


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> I really don't think M and S should have apologised. maybe men don't like women in their changing rooms either.


This is the problem, due to the whole trans activism, which is way out there and those who are trans, with true dysforia, trying to live their life as the gender they were not assigned at birth do not want to be associated with this. They might not feel comfortable using either changing room depending on transition and would rather take home clothes and return them if necessary than be told to use a specific gender which may be upsetting to them. They definitely wouldn't run to the media


----------



## Elles

From the lobby group stonewall

“Trans
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.”

Basically it now covers a bunch of people who want to be different. Back in the 80s they we were probably goths, or punks, or in the 60s and 70s, hippies who were trying to find themselves. 

The woman in M&S it seems is one of the non trans trans who call themselves non binary, which is neither male or female, or both, depending on how the individual wants to express it. In this instance a woman to the rest of us. Doesn’t she know M&S is where old women buy their knickers? It’s not one of the cool kid’s shops last I heard, even if they do ascribe to this changing room stuff which seems to be putting both sides the debate off shopping there. :Hilarious

They should have stuck to being unfashionably practical.


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> I'm not clear what happened here. Shes not physically transgender but identifies as one?
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-changing-room.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top
> 
> 
> Myla Corvidae was born female and now identifies as transgender non-binary
> They were in M&S in Aberdeen and wanted to use the men's changing room
> But the sales assistant did not let them use the facility, saying it's 'only for men'
> M&S admitted a 'mistake' had been made and sent Myla a personal apology


How can someone be transgender & non-binary? This is far too confusing!


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> How can someone be transgender & non-binary? This is far too confusing!


because transgender just means you don't identify with the gender you were assigned at birth. Apparently we are still being assigned a gender at birth, though some are now refusing it for their children. What they will be when they grow up I have no idea. If they weren't assigned a gender, they can't come under the trans umbrella I presume and will have to pick something else.

If you think you're neither male or female that makes you non binary. Binary being male and female, men and women. If you're a female who thinks they are not a female, you don't identify with what you were born as, ie you are transgender. If you're a woman who doesn't think you're male either, you're non binary transgender.

I hope I've got this right.


----------



## Elles

Don’t ask about non binary lesbians though, that’s when my head explodes and I cry quietly in a corner. :Arghh


----------



## mrs phas

Jesthar said:


> Oh, it gets even more fun - hijacking the disabled loos is popular with pretty much no-one aside from building managers in search of an easy fix.
> 
> *Disabled people quite rightly point out that disabled facilities are designed for people who cannot use normal toilets*, and allowing them to be opened up to all and sundry is a threat to their wellbeing, so the only trans using the disabled loo should be those who are disabled. *Many disabled toilets already have special locks on you need a specific key to open simply because if you don't people who can't be bothered to walk the extra ten yards to the regular facilites nip into the disabled loo instead*. They were installed on the locks in a building a disabled friend works in, for example, after several incidents where disabled people were endangered because of able bodied people habitually using the disabled loos as they were the closest to the office area, and not just for a quick widdle - some people were disappearing in there and spending ages in there. The final straw that led to the locks being installed was one (100% non-disabled - this was checked) gentleman who took to going in there after lunch several times a week and staying in there for at least half an hour, often longer. Goodness knows what he was doing in there, but he had no cause to be in there and was perfectly capable of using the standard loos the rest of the time. At least once that kind of selfish behaviour resulted in a disabled person having to try and use normal loos because they were desperate, and getting stuck, hence the introduction of locks.
> 
> Gender activists argue that trans is not a disability, so suggesting they should use disabled loos as a gender neutral facility is demeaning. After that opinion tends to split - some want separate gender neutral toilets, others won't accept anything other than being able to use whatever toilet they want whenever they want, and anyone who has any objections is transphobic and should get over themselves.


1) most disabled toilets are now labelled different things ( differently abled toilets, or easy accesible toilets etc)and will have signs on them that tell people that there a a myriad of disabilities, outside of being in a wheelchair, where people may have to use the disabled toilets, including hidden difficulties, and, ones where two adults need to be in the toilet at the same time

2) there used to be a time when RADAR keys ( the keys you speak of) were only available from the council or town hall, if you had one, now they can be bought on amazon for a couple of quid
so hardly the deterrent theyre meant to be


----------



## Jesthar

mrs phas said:


> 1) most disabled toilets are now labelled different things ( differently abled toilets, or easy accesible toilets etc)and will have signs on them that tell people that there a a myriad of disabilities, outside of being in a wheelchair, where people may have to use the disabled toilets, including hidden difficulties, and, ones where two adults need to be in the toilet at the same time
> 
> 2) there used to be a time when RADAR keys ( the keys you speak of) were only available from the council or town hall, if you had one, now they can be bought on amazon for a couple of quid
> so hardly the deterrent theyre meant to be


I know, I'm a Union rep, I get training in this stuff.  Accessible is the most common term (at the moment, it'll change again I suspect), and the RADAR locks still deter casual abuse - an able bodied (as in no hidden disabilities of any kind either) person in possession of a RADAR key is a a pre-meditated abuser of the disabled facilities, but most able bodied people who use non-RADAR locked disabled toilets do so because they are usually the closest to the office or entrance, due to the need to be - er - accessible, and people are lazy.


----------



## mrs phas

Jesthar said:


> I know, I'm a Union rep, I get training in this stuff.  Accessible is the most common term (at the moment, it'll change again I suspect), and the RADAR locks still deter casual abuse - an able bodied (as in no hidden disabilities of any kind either) person in possession of a RADAR key is a a pre-meditated abuser of the disabled facilities, but most able bodied people who use non-RADAR locked disabled toilets do so because they are usually the closest to the office or entrance, due to the need to be - er - accessible, and people are lazy.


sorry 
however, although you know it all, it might help educate someone else, who doesnt:Kiss


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> It doesn't both me either way, when there has a long queue for the ladies, I and others have given up and used the mens.


 But men pee in urinals .

Ive walked into mens' toilets by accident . So embarrassing.


----------



## Billbailey

The trick is to keep looking forward and don't catch anyone's eye. If you can't see it, it don't exist.


----------



## kimthecat

Ive used disabled toilets depending on how I am. I cant always get off the toilet and need to use a rail. Also , sometimes , my male Oh has to help or stand out side as some have very heavy doors and I cant open them. At the two hospital I use , each men and womans have their own disabled toilet so that doesnt help.



Billbailey said:


> The trick is to keep looking forward and don't catch anyone's eye. If you can't see it, it don't exist.


:Hilarious I'll remember that for next time.


----------



## Billbailey

I remember the one of the few times I've had to use a walking stick to help with my balance, I was headed slowly towards the disabled toilet in a theatre. A woman walked around me and went into it, locking the door. I stood there, swaying, totally surprised that she thought that was ok. And then, all of a sudden, I got really mad. It's rare I lose my temper in public but really..... I was absolutely fuming. She opened the door to see me, right there, giving her the death glare! She never said a word, just put her head down and stepped around me. I turned like a lighthouse, glaring all the way around. 

I expect she did it again but at least I made my feelings clear.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I*ve used disabled toilets depending on how I am. I cant always get off the toilet and need to use a rail.* Also , sometimes , my male Oh has to help or stand out side as some have very heavy doors and I cant open them. At the two hospital I use , each men and womans have their own disabled toilet so that doesnt help.


That's me now, if I use a normal one I'm frightened I'll not be able to get up and as you say, if they are for disabled why is the door so heavy.


----------



## Billbailey

That's true, actually. It's never occured to me before but they are bloody heavy in a lot of places.


----------



## Elles

They have to be big enough for wheelchairs. Complain if they’re too heavy, they aren’t supposed to be. There might be adjustments that can be made.


----------



## Sairy

kimthecat said:


> I'm not clear what happened here. Shes not physically transgender but identifies as one?
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-changing-room.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top
> 
> 
> Myla Corvidae was born female and now identifies as transgender non-binary
> They were in M&S in Aberdeen and wanted to use the men's changing room
> But the sales assistant did not let them use the facility, saying it's 'only for men'
> M&S admitted a 'mistake' had been made and sent Myla a personal apology


I'm sorry but I do find this ridiculous. How on Earth was anyone supposed to know that she was identifying as male on that particular day? The fact that she was trying on men's clothes does not mean anything - several of my lesbian friends prefer men's jeans as they find them more comfy.

Also, did anyone else notice this quote in the article, which Myla apparently said:

"The fact that I saw a female using the space at the same time in full view of the attendant when I left the changing rooms just made it so much more of a personal attack."

Well if that's not hypocrisy then I don't know what is. How does she know that that person was female? Maybe they were non-binary too and felt that they were male on that day. Myla has just blown their own argument out of the water.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Billbailey said:


> Do we think that maybe she just couldn't be arsed to walk downstairs to the female changing rooms?


Or determined to create a fuss and drama?

Honestly, she looks like a woman to me and as the changing rooms are securely individual (albeit designated by gender) she would have been just as safe/comfortable as those transgender women who want to be able to use the women's changing rooms.

Apparently us cis females  are in no danger and should be totally happy with people looking/identifying as male or female in our areas so what's her issue? 

Personally, I prefer to try stuff on at home and as M&S have a generous returns policy there's no issue there.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> because transgender just means you don't identify with the gender you were assigned at birth. Apparently we are still being assigned a gender at birth, though some are now refusing it for their children. What they will be when they grow up I have no idea. If they weren't assigned a gender, they can't come under the trans umbrella I presume and will have to pick something else.
> 
> If you think you're neither male or female that makes you non binary. Binary being male and female, men and women. So in this case …. the person was born female but doesn;t identify with that so became a boy (trans man). If you're a woman who doesn't think you're male either, you're non binary transgender.
> 
> I hope I've got this right.


Yes, I get the 'reasoning' regarding being 'assigned' a gender at birth not being accepted so that would mean someone born female might then decide to be a man so how can they then be non-binary if they have become a trans man? Would they not just be non-binary? or does it change if they had had gender reassignment surgery?

Sorry if I am being thick but I feel like my nan at times now as I am struggling to keep up with the craziness!!


----------



## lullabydream

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, I get the 'reasoning' regarding being 'assigned' a gender at birth not being accepted so that would mean someone born male might then decide to be a woman so how can they then be non-binary if they have become a trans woman? Would they not just be non-binary? or does it change if they had had gender reassignment surgery?
> 
> Sorry if I am being thick but I feel like my nan at times now as I am struggling to keep up with the craziness!!


Yes it's crazy.. Basically because non binary is neither either gender per se, it's not the gender you were assigned at birth so it's under the umbrella term transgender which is getting absolutely ridiculous with all these so called 'genders'


----------



## Cleo38

lullabydream said:


> Yes it's crazy.. Basically because non binary is neither either gender per se, it's not the gender you were assigned at birth so it's under the umbrella term transgender which is getting absolutely ridiculous with all these so called 'genders'


So basically she's a woman who chooses to dress in 'men's clothes' ?! 

And 'feels scared' about shopping in M&S again ….. bet the staff are gutted they have lost her custom


----------



## lullabydream

Cleo38 said:


> So basically she's a woman who chooses to dress in 'men's clothes' ?!
> 
> And 'feels scared' about shopping in M&S again ….. bet the staff are gutted they have lost her custom


Exactly. I think I need to ditch my sons hoodie which I use for dog walking I might get misgendered!


----------



## Sairy

I actually know someone who has two young daughters. Someone bought them a doll each for Christmas and the father will not allow them to play with them as apparently that is being sexist. I wonder what he would have done if he had sons and someone bought them dolls


----------



## lullabydream

Sairy said:


> I actually know someone who has two young daughters. Someone bought them a doll each for Christmas and the father will not allow them to play with them as apparently that is being sexist. I wonder what he would have done if he had sons and someone bought them dolls


I did something wrong my sons had dolls, pushchairs and a kitchen. I actually thought it was said that my nephew all he wanted for 3 years straight was a barbie doll and my sister told us not to buy him one. 
Argos got into trouble years ago for categorising boys and girls toys 
Toys are toys for imaginative play!


----------



## Elles

We're having this discussion and showing how ridiculous it all is, but it's taking over the world. Kids are being permanently altered, even sterilised. Refuges are losing funding, or having to take in men. Men are being put in women's prisons. Schools are teaching it. Men are winning women's sports and pushing out girls. Men are representing women in politics and on boards and groups where they push men's rights instead. Men are threatening women with violence if they dare speak and closing them down.

If your nephew wanted a Barbie doll, today he'd be given a chart that said he was on the girl's end of the gender spectrum, if he was at a progressive school.


----------



## havoc

Lurcherlad said:


> Or determined to create a fuss and drama?


Maybe a longing to be special in some way. There are those who aren't so desperate to make issue out of it and they command far more respect from me.
If only they were still making Little Britain. Williams and Lucas could come up with an up to date equivalent of 'I'm the only gay in this village'.


----------



## havoc

Sairy said:


> I actually know someone who has two young daughters. Someone bought them a doll each for Christmas and the father will not allow them to play with them as apparently that is being sexist. I wonder what he would have done if he had sons and someone bought them dolls


Must be very complicated in a household with both sons and daughters - would require 24 hour surveillance


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Maybe a longing to be special in some way. There are those who aren't so desperate to make issue out of it and they command far more respect from me.
> If only they were still making Little Britain. Williams and Lucas could come up with an up to date equivalent of 'I'm the only gay in this village'.


They did, the "I'm a lady" which I'm sure is really un PC now. :Kiss

There are what I'd say are extremes the other way too. I don't have an issue with people living their lives how they see fit, if it doesn't affect anyone else. Some groups want to ban trans and drag altogether, calling it men in "woman face", on a par with black face. I can't agree with that.


----------



## lullabydream

Elles said:


> We're having this discussion and showing how ridiculous it all is, but it's taking over the world. Kids are being permanently altered, even sterilised. Refuges are losing funding, or having to take in men. Men are being put in women's prisons. Schools are teaching it. Men are winning women's sports and pushing out girls. Men are representing women in politics and on boards and groups where they push men's rights instead. Men are threatening women with violence if they dare speak and closing them down.
> 
> If your nephew wanted a Barbie doll, today he'd be given a chart that said he was on the girl's end of the gender spectrum, if he was at a progressive school.
> 
> View attachment 431774
> 
> I absolutely agree.. I watched Nikkitutorials coming out video on YouTube, who in the scheme of the toxic world of make up you tubers and for young teens and adults, who I have worked with. I have always suggested her as someone to look at when trying make up, as she uses budget end products a lot not just high end like many. I admired her for coming out and saying hey I am me, a transsexuals it was never about me, but about the make up. She said she had dysphoria from a young age and preferred toys like barbies.. As already been said, take any young child they often play with toys of the which historically were stipulated as gender specific but its just imaginative play.. No toy means some one will play a male role if all girls are playing together. There were studies and studies on this that stated so.. Why has it suddenly changed its going backwards. Children are gender neutral, peer groups co exist of usually both girls and boys. Now we have started to embrace girls playing things like football in primary schools, where it was solely boys. It's like we are going back in time.
> 
> The likes of these groups such as mermaids are doing more harm than good. I do applaud those that realise at a young age that they aren't the gender they are assigned, and have wonderful parents that help but for everyone that truly is trans. Trans is a very tiny minority, there are those who are not, those whose parents are believing the hype because its huge news. Its ridiculous.
> 
> View attachment 431775


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> They did, the "I'm a lady" which I'm sure is really un PC now. :Kiss
> 
> There are what I'd say are extremes the other way too. I don't have an issue with people living their lives how they see fit, if it doesn't affect anyone else. Some groups want to ban trans and drag altogether, calling it men in "woman face", on a par with black face. I can't agree with that.


I can sort of see it in some ways (depends on the drag artist & the 'comedy') but wouldn't want it banned. But then I don't always think black face is racist either


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> View attachment 431775


Obviously they're OK with a mythical creature representing a bunch of other mythical creatures then
Sums it up really

(Please remember I have no problems with those suffering from true gender dysphoria)


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> Obviously they're OK with a mythical creature representing a bunch of other mythical creatures then
> Sums it up really
> 
> (Please remember I have no problems with those suffering from true gender dysphoria)


There are trans folk who have dysphoria who don't agree with all this activism stuff. They just aren't being listened to.


----------



## havoc

mrs phas said:


> (Please remember I have no problems with those suffering from true gender dysphoria)


Managed to stay calm throughout this thread and think it's been very measured but now I'm really angry. Not because of the sentiment behind that comment but because you felt the need to voice it. I understand why and I'm furious that we are running scared.


----------



## rona

You could see this all coming a miles off, all those shouting minority groups getting their own way just by how loud they were, was never going to be good for the general majority of bods.
It's happening in so many parts of life. I think I'm just going to ignore and carry on living how I always have. Though that is getting harder and harder as big business decides my future


----------



## mrs phas

havoc said:


> Managed to stay calm throughout this thread and think it's been very measured but now I'm really angry. Not because of the sentiment behind that comment but because you felt the need to voice it. I understand why and I'm furious that we are running scared.


I felt the need to voice it because I always try to think outside the box
Any true transgendered person, reading this thread, and I'm sure we must have one or two, may be thinking we abhor ALL transgendered people, when we don't
We are talking about those who self identify, that want to trample over the, should be protected, rights, of women, those who see it as a, literal, get out of jail free card, and those who want to make up stupid words to make us feel dirty, scummy, sexist, ashamed and wrong
True transgendered women, and men, diagnosed with true gender dysphoria, just want to change, pass and get on with their lives, they no more want to be outed or become activists, than they wanted to be in their birth gender.
I will not be ashamed to say I am a woman and I will not run scared of anyone who thinks I'm some sort of transist(I'm just a box van size really) just because I call a spade a shovel, or, a self id-er exactly what he is, a cock in a frock

So don't be annoyed @havoc , the only sentiment that was meant was kindness, certainly not running scared


----------



## havoc

mrs phas said:


> Any true transgendered person, reading this thread, and I'm sure we must have one or two, may be thinking we abhor ALL transgendered people,


I hope not because to me it's a given that we don't.


----------



## Sairy

rona said:


> You could see this all coming a miles off, all those shouting minority groups getting their own way just by how loud they were, was never going to be good for the general majority of bods.
> It's happening in so many parts of life. I think I'm just going to ignore and carry on living how I always have. Though that is getting harder and harder as big business decides my future


To be fair, it's because of shouty minority groups that many of us have rights that we would not have otherwise had. A lot of the progress that has been made is good, it's just not good when one group's rights trample over another.


----------



## Billbailey

Speaking as an old feminist, I'm all for everyone having the same rights and opportunities. What I hate is how toxic this whole subject has become because of a few people being extreme and therefore newsworthy. It's become almost impossible to have a decent conversation about it on SM because of the toxic nature of the debate. If I say something that questions the trans-activist viewpoint, I get called a TERF and transphobic immediately. My point gets shut down and I am silenced. And I for one am not going back to that, no matter who is expecting it. 

I think it's a deep shame that women, whatever body they were born in, can't speak to each other about this without all the hate and the misunderstandings. Transpeople have a good case for having more rights but an awful lot of people have switched off from the debate.

I think it's also unfortunate that gender has become the latest fashionable cause for attention-seekers and psuedo-rebels. If I were trans, that would really pee me off.


----------



## Elles

Sairy said:


> To be fair, it's because of shouty minority groups that many of us have rights that we would not have otherwise had. A lot of the progress that has been made is good, it's just not good when one group's rights trample over another.


There's a difference between shouty minority groups with genuine complaints and objectives and these lunatics though lol.

Arielle Scarcella just made me :Hilarious Says it all


----------



## lullabydream

Billbailey said:


> Transpeople have a good case for having more rights but an awful lot of people have switched off from the debate


See this is where the debate and the transactivist do more harm than good... This paragraph I have quoted sums it all perfectly.. What actual rights are this transactivist fighting for waving the placard give trans rights, because the trans who have true dysmorphia, have rights. Those who transition and live as much as they can to the gender of their own choosing, male or female which wasn't assigned at birth have rights. People fought hard for these rights many years ago.

However due to all this crap in the media and the shouty ones, those who don't realise are sat thinking this minority don't have rights because they are telling us so. It's not true.. but they are pushing the boundaries to where its becoming ludacris.


----------



## rona

Billbailey said:


> Speaking as an old feminist, I've all for everyone having the same rights and opportunities.


I'm actually ashamed of what some shouty feminists did in my name. I was a feminist who just got on with it and proved myself equal and gained respect.


----------



## Billbailey

rona said:


> I'm actually ashamed of what some shouty feminists did in my name. I was a feminist who just got on with it and proved myself equal and gained respect.


I think most of us did. And I'm 99% proud of what my generation and the ones that came before me did in what was a real struggle for some very basic rights. It was a fight, not a bandwagon. The generations that came after had their own battles and mostly won them. These days the battles are more diffuse and harder to define for many of us although there are still fights to win, like banning FGM. But for us Western women the basic battles are won. So I'm proud of all of us.

I'm also proud of the people Lullaby mentioned who fought the real fight for transpeople's rights. And that isn't won yet by a long way. But this new lot are looking for a fight where there isn't one, IMO.


----------



## Sairy

Elles said:


> There's a difference between shouty minority groups with genuine complaints and objectives and these lunatics though lol.
> 
> Arielle Scarcella just made me :Hilarious Says it all


Oh yes I totally agree, I just don't like them being lumped together. I feel quite far removed from the lgbtq community these days, whereas 10 years ago I felt very much part of things.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> There's a difference between shouty minority groups with genuine complaints and objectives and these lunatics though lol.
> 
> Arielle Scarcella just made me :Hilarious Says it all


Love her @Elles !!! Just subscribed to her YouTube channel


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> Love her @Elles !!! Just subscribed to her YouTube channel


I'm not subscribed, because some of her stuff is a bit pornified for this old lady lol, but YouTube seems to know when she uploads something I'll like, so it hits my recommended.


----------



## lullabydream

Elles said:


> I'm not subscribed, because some of her stuff is a bit pornified for this old lady lol, but YouTube seems to know when she uploads something I'll like, so it hits my recommended.


Why do get her recommendation that start a porn star shows me how to.... then? After only watching a few of her videos and definitely nothing like that!


----------



## Sairy

lullabydream said:


> Why do get her recommendation that start a porn star shows me how to.... then? After only watching a few of her videos and definitely nothing like that!


That's what they all say


----------



## Cleo38

Good on Duncan Bannatyne! Far too many people appear scared to speak out on these issues for fear of being called transphobic & bigoted …. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/enter...ncan-bannatyne-wades-transgender-row-21546570


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> Good on Duncan Bannatyne! Far too many people appear scared to speak out on these issues for fear of being called transphobic & bigoted …. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/enter...ncan-bannatyne-wades-transgender-row-21546570


It's good, but he is saying that trans should be accepted as women once they've had full surgery. This is being, rightly I think, campaigned against by trans, as not all TIMs want surgery, but if that's the only way to be accepted in law, the law is encouraging, if not forcing, people to have extreme surgeries and sterilisation and who is going to check they've had it done. I think Mr Bannatyne hasn't fully understood the consequences.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It's good, but he is saying that trans should be accepted as women once they've had full surgery. This is being, rightly I think, campaigned against by trans, as not all TIMs want surgery, but if that's the only way to be accepted in law, the law is encouraging, if not forcing, people to have extreme surgeries and sterilisation and who is going to check they've had it done. I think Mr Bannatyne hasn't fully understood the consequences.


How far do you think those who want to transition from male to female ought to have go before being accepted into female-only spaces, then?

Please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I can see many biological women being unhappy about having to share those safe spaces, particularly those where any state of undress is commonplace, with anyone who has male biological equipment that is still in working order...


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> How far do you think those who want to transition from male to female ought to have go before being accepted into female-only spaces, then?


I think we'd all agree that we're uncomfortable with someone being able to suddenly make a self declaration of preferred gender out of nowhere. At the other end of the scale there's little question that someone who has gone through a full surgical change should be accepted.

It's where along that line is acceptable we probably have individual ideas. I'm comfortable with someone who is living as their preferred gender, with or without physical changes. I know I am because I've worked with someone who was transitioning and it was fine. Maybe it was fine because we knew a full surgical change was the goal, I don't know. I do know it didn't bother me at any point before the surgery.

I can't get my head around the idea that someone can just decide that they feel, so declare themselves, female today and tomorrow male swapping back and forth - in terms of what areas they can access. No heartache with anyone living that way but in that case the body you're born with dictates which loo you use.


----------



## lullabydream

Jesthar said:


> How far do you think those who want to transition from male to female ought to have go before being accepted into female-only spaces, then?
> 
> Please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I can see many biological women being unhappy about having to share those safe spaces, particularly those where any state of undress is commonplace, with anyone who has male biological equipment that is still in working order...


I know am not specifically being asked but I think in total honesty to some degree although as women who possibly feel like our women only spaces now are at risk.. I think the question should be asked of those true trans people, those who go under the term transsexual who have true dysmorphia and seek the counselling, risk losing family and friends. Do their transitioning etc.. Only they can decide when they feel comfortable going in women's changing rooms. If for whatever reason they can't have surgery.. It's far from an easy surgery to be honest, not risk free. Can it completely get rid of dysmorphia.. Dysmorphia is more complex than that. To be honest you have to understand transsexuals are also a very tiny minority too, so not going to be flooding our women's area anyway. However if they do reach the stage of feeling accepted as a woman by them selves and society I am guessing they will be descreetly using these areas anyway and no one is batting an eyelid because they are not flaunting, running around half naked and they are to everyone looking female.


----------



## havoc

lullabydream said:


> To be honest you have to understand transsexuals are also a very tiny minority too,


Yes but maybe a growing minority because they don't have to hide or fight too hard for what they need. Many decades ago there was a TV documentary on the subject featuring someone in the UK who wanted to transition from male to female and I remember their frustration at being made to wait so long. The programme followed a number of appointments over a long time. The main medical professional featured was the most arrogant, cruel, unsupportive and obstructive piece of sh*t you can imagine. I remember thinking it then and still do now. How that poor patient wasn't driven to suicide I'll never know. Hopefully these days people aren't treated the same way.


----------



## Jonescat

They are a bit. Not so long ago it became clear to me the very painful divide between those who can pay for their surgery and those who have to wait for the NHS waiting list. It is inevitable but when you are in your teens looking at waiting until nearly your thirties (or never) to complete what seems to be the most important thing in your life, and then you meet richer and transitioned peers at Pride, it is really tough.

I have been told that the standard trans counselling consists of establishing your sanity rather than digging through your psyche too much. There is huge pressure on teen counselling services outside of the clinics and if your supporters aren't both well informed and able to fight for you to get what you need it is really easy to feel despair.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> How far do you think those who want to transition from male to female ought to have go before being accepted into female-only spaces, then?


None. We can't change sex, the law has no need to be involved. Basically, if it's a refuge, or sports, or anything else where male and female are separated, it should stay separate. However, I see no reason to make it law that a trans woman will be prosecuted if they pop into the ladies and have a discrete wizz. What I don't want is for it to be law that any bloke can say he's a woman any time he likes and perv in the loo and changing rooms. Most decent men don't want to, so I'm sorry, one has to suspect the intentions of those who do and we can't tell the difference.

I don't want men to take over women's sports and as as it's wrong to discriminate based on surgical progress, sorry guys, one rule for one, one rule for all. Just like me, you can't compete. Me because I'm a crap athlete, you because you're a bloke. Go compete against other blokes. Decent trans people who are good athletes do. There are boxers, fighters and weight lifters, who identify as women, but compete against men. They aren't stupid, they know men have a huge advantage in some sports, whether they take hormones and have srs surgeries or not.

Women's refuges are safe spaces. No decent person wants to take these spaces from women and girls. Decent trans people are trying to raise money for spaces for LGBT. Women will never understand what trans women live and trans women will never understand what women live. They need separate services.

We cannot transition from male to female, or vice versa, it's a shame, but it's impossible. Doctors and surgeons aren't god. The huge majority of male to female trans do not have bottom surgery. Even Blaire White who is gorgeous hasn't and still has male genitals. I agree that no one should be forced, or encouraged into surgeries, or even taking hormones by laws, but self ID isn't the answer. The answer is doing away with gender stereotypes and sticking to sex based rights. Imo


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> Yes but maybe a growing minority because they don't have to hide or fight too hard for what they need. Many decades ago there was a TV documentary on the subject featuring someone in the UK who wanted to transition from male to female and I remember their frustration at being made to wait so long. The programme followed a number of appointments over a long time. The main medical professional featured was the most arrogant, cruel, unsupportive and obstructive piece of sh*t you can imagine. I remember thinking it then and still do now. How that poor patient wasn't driven to suicide I'll never know. Hopefully these days people aren't treated the same way.


I know the one you mean - I remember watching it too.

You're so right - he was awful.


----------



## Jaf

I only know 1 trans woman, from an amateur 10 pin bowling league. She’s had the surgery 20 years ago and is now a pensioner. She’s still a more powerful bowler than the other women though, some very fit with 30 years on her.

I don’t think anyone would have a problem with her using women’s toilets but it doesn’t seem fair that she can compete without some sort of handicap.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> None. We can't change sex


This ….. I don't understand why some trans people hate being referred to as a transwoman or man, why is that seen as derogatory?


----------



## O2.0

Meanwhile in Connecticut....

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/us/transgender-athletes-connecticut-lawsuit/?hpt=ob_blogfooterold

A lot of this conversation around trans people is very confusing to me and I struggle to feel like I know enough to form an opinion either way. 
However, competition in sports seems pretty simple to me. Being born biologically male gives you a clear advantage over biological females in most sports. I just don't see how it is fair to allow biologically male athletes to compete in women's sports...

Women have fought so long for equal rights in sports. A friend of mine was a phenomenal tennis player, when she went to college, her school had no female tennis team, her only choice was to play on the men's team or not play. Title IX was all about making equal opportunities for women athletes like my friend. Not to take opportunities away from women


----------



## Cleo38

O2.0 said:


> Meanwhile in Connecticut....
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/us/transgender-athletes-connecticut-lawsuit/?hpt=ob_blogfooterold
> 
> A lot of this conversation around trans people is very confusing to me and I struggle to feel like I know enough to form an opinion either way.
> However, competition in sports seems pretty simple to me. Being born biologically male gives you a clear advantage over biological females in most sports. I just don't see how it is fair to allow biologically male athletes to compete in women's sports...
> 
> Women have fought so long for equal rights in sports. A friend of mine was a phenomenal tennis player, when she went to college, her school had no female tennis team, her only choice was to play on the men's team or not play. Title IX was all about making equal opportunities for women athletes like my friend. Not to take opportunities away from women


Agreed, I hope these girls win their case & can continue with their sport without being sidelined by male competitors. I honestly don't understand how it has come to this tho. On Woman's Hour (programme on Radio 2) a while ago there were discussions on this with two guests (opposing sides). The woman who supported trans women's 'right's' to compete in female races/competitions said that biological women simply needed to 'up their game' when challenged with the fact that biological males have an unfair advantage ….how offensive is that?!

Obviously winning a title/trophy is so important to come people that they will find any means necessary to win …. so sad as yet again women are being pushed out


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> The woman who supported trans women's 'right's' to compete in female races/competitions said that biological women simply needed to 'up their game' when challenged with the fact that biological males have an unfair advantage


That sounds like Rachel McKinnon, male to female trans cyclist. There are a couple of trans competitors who say things like women just need to train harder. 'Up their game' is something I've seen McKinnon say more than once.

Given the current climate in the US and Canada, I wish the girls the best of luck.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> That sounds like Rachel McKinnon, male to female trans cyclist. There are a couple of trans competitors who say things like women just need to train harder. 'Up their game' is something I've seen McKinnon say more than once.
> 
> Given the current climate in the US and Canada, I wish the girls the best of luck.


No it wasn't as McKinnon won't debate any trans issues as apparently there is no debate there is only transphobia 

It was some sports psychologist who although am pleased was willing to debate still came out with some rubbish.

IMO McKinnon is a cheat & should not be able to push women out of their own sport


----------



## havoc

I train with weights. I do all the same lifting men do and it is biologically impossible for me to build muscle like a man - not that I’d want to. Suggesting women should just ‘up their game’ is ridiculous.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> I train with weights. I do all the same lifting men do and it is biologically impossible for me to build muscle like a man - not that I'd want to. Suggesting women should just 'up their game' is ridiculous.


It is, isn't it? And even though they argue that they lower their current testosterone levels, they can't undo or counteract the years of natural advantage just being born biologically male gave them - and still gives them, if they are going to be honest about it.

For example, one of these athletes was born biologically male, and lived (and played sport) that way for over a quarter of a century before coming out as trans. I don't have the time to cut it down to just show the bodies, but could you tell which one it was likely to be just looking from the neck down?


----------



## O2.0

Cleo38 said:


> Obviously winning a title/trophy is so important to come people that they will find any means necessary to win …. so sad as yet again women are being pushed out


I worry here too. The lengths people are willing to go to in order to win defy imagination sometimes. How long before athletes start 'identifying as...' to give themselves an edge?

The 'up their game' comment flies all over me. There are precious few sports where men and women are equal competitors for a reason. I competed at the top levels in juniors showjumping. In equestrian sports men and women compete as equals, arguably the horse is the athlete, not the rider.
Ultra distance running is another sport where women are starting to catch up to men, at the extended distances it does become a game of mental toughness as much as physical toughness.

And of course there are individual women who are far better athletes than individual men, that's not the point. At the competitive levels there is a clear difference between men and women. This denying of biology serves no one. Men build denser bones, they carry less body fat, they build more muscle...

Women's soccer (football) in the US is also in the news, not trans related, but definitely women's issues related:
https://www.espn.com/sports/soccer/story/_/id/27175927/us-women-soccer-equal-pay-fight-latest-next

So to sum it up. On the one hand women are told to step up their game and compete against men. On the other hand women are told that men in sports are more valuable than women in sports. 
Yay for progress! enguin


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> even though they argue that they lower their current testosterone levels, they can't undo or counteract the years of natural advantage just being born biologically male gave them


That's it in a nutshell. That's why kids can all play sport together up to puberty and then males surge ahead in strength and speed. Not only does testosterone give a huge advantage but oestrogen actually works against it.


----------



## mrs phas

havoc said:


> That's it in a nutshell. That's why kids can all play sport together up to puberty and then males surge ahead in strength and speed. Not only does testosterone give a huge advantage but oestrogen actually works against it.


BBC News - Teen girl beats boys to 'make history' as state champion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51666728

Heaven follows in the footsteps of Michaela Hutchison, who became the first girl to ever win a state-wide secondary school title in 2006.

16, being well into puberty, for most of that age group, I'm not sure your arguement holds up


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## havoc

Ok - it doesn’t. Science doesn’t. The norm doesn’t. This totally usual thing will be why it was considered newsworthy.


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## mrs phas

havoc said:


> Ok - it doesn't. Science doesn't. The norm doesn't. This totally usual thing will be why it was considered newsworthy.


Exactly
(Shame you don't read sarcasm as well as I do)
THIS is what the idiots will hold up as 'good reasoning' for males and females to compete together, and use AGAINST the common sense and scientific brigade, the ones we call realists

As a parent, I'm not sure I would approve of male/female Greco Roman wrestling at any age, hands, faces etc get far to close and personal for it to be a mixed sport and at 16, no no no
Surely it would be better for the schools or girls to campaign for an only girls league, especially in this day and age of historic abuse allegations (thinking in 10 or so years those boys will be in court for hands in wrong places!) than to be an, almost, peadophalic performance, as is


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## Elles

mrs phas said:


> BBC News - Teen girl beats boys to 'make history' as state champion
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51666728
> 
> Heaven follows in the footsteps of Michaela Hutchison, who became the first girl to ever win a state-wide secondary school title in 2006.
> 
> 16, being well into puberty, for most of that age group, I'm not sure your arguement holds up


Boys go through puberty later than girls, a 16 year old boy hasn't had time to take full advantage yet. Plus it's wrestling. Plus it's the exception that proves the rule. One expert trained 16 year old girl, of the millions that have gone before her, winning in one weight division discipline against boys, not men, proves that women shouldn't be competing against men.

Her weight division alone splits any men from the boys.

Boys beat women's records in many sports, they don't beat just girls. Let's see how she does against expert men in her weight division when she's 20. If she still wins, then maybe this wrestling is one competition that can be mixed and only very exceptional, one in a million females be able to compete. I don't think so. 

Serena Williams was beaten easily by a 200+ ranked male and reckons herself that she wouldn't make the top 700. A transgendered male would thrash women in tennis.


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## Lurcherlad

mrs phas said:


> Exactly
> (Shame you don't read sarcasm as well as I do)
> THIS is what the idiots will hold up as 'good reasoning' for males and females to compete together, and use AGAINST the common sense and scientific brigade, the ones we call realists
> 
> As a parent, I'm not sure I would approve of male/female Greco Roman wrestling at any age, hands, faces etc get far to close and personal for it to be a mixed sport and at 16, no no no
> Surely it would be better for the schools or girls to campaign for an only girls league, especially in this day and age of historic abuse allegations (thinking in 10 or so years those boys will be in court for hands in wrong places!) than to be an, almost, peadophalic performance, as is


And I wonder if the boys hold back tbh?

I've watched youth football games with mixed teams and the boys naturally hold back in their tackling of the girls. I think it's an instinctive thing.

It definitely gave the girls an advantage imo.


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## O2.0

Elles said:


> Boys go through puberty later than girls, a 16 year old boy hasn't had time to take full advantage yet. Plus it's wrestling. Plus it's the exception that proves the rule. One expert trained 16 year old girl, of the millions that have gone before her, winning in one weight division discipline against boys, not men, proves that women shouldn't be competing against men.
> 
> Her weight division alone splits any men from the boys.


Yes, I know precious little about wresting, but I do know they have weight divisions. At the very least she's not competing against boys who are bigger than her (and from photos she looks pretty petite  )
Again, I don't know much about wresting, but a lot of it is technique, not just strength. Strength matters, yes, but good technique (and inherent talent) matters too. Even still, at the elite levels you don't see women competing against men. 
I think it's telling that her coach's comment was: "And coach Chris hopes her win may lead to the creation of a girls-only division in North Carolina in the next few years." 
Basically, she's not wresting to prove she can compete against men, she's wresting to make a place for women in the sport. We're still fighting for equal opportunities in sports for crying out loud!!

I think there actually is an argument to be made for women and men to compete equally in *some* sports. I googled sports where women and men compete equally and in the Olympics (according to google) it's only sailing and equestrian events. I also found it interesting that mushing - sled dog racing is also a 'sport' where women and men compete against each other. One woman, Susan Butcher, has won four times!

But within this, there also has to be a conversation about opportunities. Heaven Fitch didn't compete in the boy's division because she wanted to prove she was as good as the boys, but because there was no girl's division for her to compete in. It was her only opportunity to compete. If we're going to make the argument that women need to 'step up their game' and compete equally against men, we also have to make equal opportunities for young girls to develop their skills in that sport.


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## Lurcherlad

Physical strength has no bearing on sailing, equestrianism or mushing surely - it’s more to do with technique and skill.

The latter two, a connection with the animal too ime.


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## O2.0

Lurcherlad said:


> Physical strength has no bearing on sailing, equestrianism or mushing surely - it's more to do with technique and skill.
> 
> The latter two, a connection with the animal too ime.


Well, yes, if you're relying on strength to ride a horse, something has gone very wrong!
I know absolutely nothing about sailing other than a very failed attempt to wind-sail in my youth. I did manage it but was sore in places I didn't know I had!

And yes, some sports do rely on technique as much if not more so than physical strength - wresting being one example, hence why a female wrestler could do so well. But looking at her arms, she's obviously very strong too! 
I think it could be an interesting conversation to look at different sports and opine whether they're suited to men and women competing equally. But before we can even consider that, there have to be equal opportunities for young girls, which as this wresting story shows, there still aren't.


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## Jaf

Even in sports like snooker or darts men are vastly better than women. No strength involved! 

Or golf. Though I understand that with pensioners men play golf and women do charity work, so the men will obviously be better at golf with all the practice.


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## lullabydream

Jaf said:


> Even in sports like snooker or darts men are vastly better than women. No strength involved!
> 
> Or golf. Though I understand that with pensioners men play golf and women do charity work, so the men will obviously be better at golf with all the practice.


Didn't a woman's dart player beat the men recently? Maybe I misread


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## mrs phas

BBC News - NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020


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## picaresque

Catching up with this thread. One thing that has made me furious this past week - Canadian transactivist Morgane Oger has succeeded in getting Vancouver Rape Relief defunded because of its women only policy. This charity has undergone sustained harassment for years because of this, including having a dead rat nailed to the door and the words 'kill terfs' scrawled on the building (totally reasonable behaviour). The city officials say the service has to be inclusive of all people. Might as well get angry at cat shelters for not providing for needy donkeys.
Other services are available for men and transwomen who have been raped, and if there is a lack of them they could do what women did and start their own crisis centres with all the blood, sweat and tears that involves, but that's not really what people like Oger want.

https://www.citynews1130.com/video/2020/02/26/funding-ends-for-vancouver-rape-relief-service/


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## Lurcherlad

Absurd!


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## Elles

picaresque said:


> Catching up with this thread. One thing that has made me furious this past week - Canadian transactivist Morgane Oger has succeeded in getting Vancouver Rape Relief defunded because of its women only policy. This charity has undergone sustained harassment for years because of this, including having a dead rat nailed to the door and the words 'kill terfs' scrawled on the building (totally reasonable behaviour). The city officials say the service has to be inclusive of all people. Might as well get angry at cat shelters for not providing for needy donkeys.
> Other services are available for men and transwomen who have been raped, and if there is a lack of them they could do what women did and start their own crisis centres with all the blood, sweat and tears that involves, but that's not really what people like Oger want.
> 
> https://www.citynews1130.com/video/2020/02/26/funding-ends-for-vancouver-rape-relief-service/


You haven't seen the latest? The same officials who turned down Vancouver rape relief have authorised a centre specifically for trans women. "Trans specific housing for safety and dignity." It's utterly ...words fail. It's being said that for the first time, younger generations are turning against LGB and becoming less tolerant. I can't imagine why.


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## O2.0

Elles said:


> You haven't seen the latest? The same officials who turned down Vancouver rape relief have authorised a centre specifically for trans women. "Trans specific housing for safety and dignity." It's utterly ...words fail. It's being said that for the first time, younger generations are turning against LGB and becoming less tolerant. I can't imagine why.


Wait what?
They closed the women's only center because it wasn't inclusive enough, but opened a trans only center that excludes non trans women? Am I understanding that correctly?


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## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> BBC News - NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020


I was just going to post this.

Im just adding a bit in case anyone has problems with links.

A 23-year-old woman who is taking legal action against an NHS gender clinic says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager.

A judge gave the go-ahead this week for a full hearing of the case against the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.

Lawyers will argue children cannot give informed consent to treatment delaying puberty or helping them to transition.

The Tavistock said it always took a cautious approach to treatment.

Gender identity charity Mermaids said that people face a long wait for access to such services, that they can save lives and that very few people regret their decision.

The clinic based in Hampstead, north-west London, which runs the UK's only gender-identity development service (GIDS), added that it welcomed an examination of the evidence in this contentious area.


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## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> I was just going to post this.
> 
> Im just adding a bit in case anyone has problems with links.
> 
> A 23-year-old woman who is taking legal action against an NHS gender clinic says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager.
> 
> A judge gave the go-ahead this week for a full hearing of the case against the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.
> 
> Lawyers will argue children cannot give informed consent to treatment delaying puberty or helping them to transition.
> 
> The Tavistock said it always took a cautious approach to treatment.
> 
> Gender identity charity Mermaids said that people face a long wait for access to such services, that they can save lives and that very few people regret their decision.
> 
> The clinic based in Hampstead, north-west London, which runs the UK's only gender-identity development service (GIDS), added that it welcomed an examination of the evidence in this contentious area.


Mermaids would say that because they tell parents if your child plays with certain toys then they are trans.. They aren't the best but the powers that be listen to them.

Have watched a few detransitioning stories on YouTube albeit in America mainly. If one therapist says you are not ready yet, often they go somewhere else. Looking back many are just headstrong teens.. Many stories are similar and some don't even get told about what can go wrong with taking hormones. It's so sad.. Counselling if any never really discusses dysphoria but that should be the main part not just yes you can change.. It's all geared to the person is coming wanting so we are paving the way.


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## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Wait what?
> They closed the women's only center because it wasn't inclusive enough, but opened a trans only center that excludes non trans women? Am I understanding that correctly?


Apparently so, except they weren't successful in closing down the women's refuge, just denying them official funding and support and gloating about it. People world wide have been donating.

Otherwise, yes, it seems officialdom support trans-only services, but not (natal) women-only services. No one is denying that trans people need support and services specifically designed and targeted for them of course. It's very unlikely that the women denied their services will spray paint expletives on the windows, threaten violence, or nail dead rats to the door.

I believe when it comes to children, therapists are not permitted to question. They have to follow the affirmation model and not explore any reasons a child might be saying they are trans.

Sports wise, I think if the Olympics go ahead, it'll be so obvious. They say there's a huge increase in transgendered athletes qualifying for this Olympics, now they've changed the rules and they expect even more at the next. I sympathise with people who do suffer dysphoria, I really do. The psychological pain must be unimaginable when folk go to the lengths they do to ease it, but that doesn't mean any man who declares, "I am woman" should be treated as though Captain Picard said, "Make it so" and women be forced aside to make way.


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## mrs phas

has anyoneelse seen the starbucks advert
even I, a trans advocate, am getting fed up of having it rammed down my throat now


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## Elles

mrs phas said:


> has anyoneelse seen the starbucks advert
> even I, a trans advocate, am getting fed up of having it rammed down my throat now


Yep and Paris Lees in the new Pantene advert being the woman she is lol. I loved the ad with Katie Piper talking about hiding behind her hair, but honestly. It's getting boring. Starbucks are raising money for mermaids of course, they seem to be charity flavour of the month for a lot of the woke. A 57 year old mentally ill man dies of starvation, because no one checks on him, but stupid mermaids and targeting the young is all the rage. rowning


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## picaresque

Elles said:


> You haven't seen the latest? The same officials who turned down Vancouver rape relief have authorised a centre specifically for trans women. "Trans specific housing for safety and dignity." It's utterly ...words fail. It's being said that for the first time, younger generations are turning against LGB and becoming less tolerant. I can't imagine why.


I hadn't heard this! I dip in and out of this business tbh as it infuriates and depresses me in equal measure and I can't deal with it all the time. So, the councilwoman who said such services must include all people ... huh
I totally support trans only services of course, so why aren't women afforded the same courtesy? It's hard not to to see this as a deliberate and insidious dismantling of our hard won rights.



mrs phas said:


> has anyoneelse seen the starbucks advert
> even I, a trans advocate, am getting fed up of having it rammed down my throat now


Why are they so often posh white kids? Is it what happens when they don't have any real problems?
I keep seeing various LGBTQ tags trending on twitter and it's all naval gazing young gen z-ers posting selfies and reinforcing each other's narcissism.


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## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Boys go through puberty later than girls, a 16 year old boy hasn't had time to take full advantage yet. Plus it's wrestling. Plus it's the exception that proves the rule. One expert trained 16 year old girl, of the millions that have gone before her, winning in one weight division discipline against boys, not men, proves that women shouldn't be competing against men


When I was 16, I was physically bigger than most of the boys in my year, and (thanks to a not particularly advisable, but supremely satisfying at the time, backlash against years of bullying) most of them were wary enough of me to back away if they pushed me to far. I should clarify that I never actually fought or even thumped anyone, a small but practical knowledge of wrestling holds, pressure points and physics in general was more than enough if push came to shove, plus a talent for acting in intimidating fashion, was more than enough.

And I wasn't even the biggest girl in the year, and certainly not the most athletic. Granted, it's nowhere near in the same league as competing in proper Greco-Roman wrestling, but if untrained shy little me can have the bully boys of the year running scared at that age, it's not a huge leap that a highly trained, highly motivated 16yo girl can outwrestle boys of the same age.

Incidentally, I wouldn't have wanted to tried doing the same things just a year or two later as the boys had more than caught up physically, but by then I'd calmed down a bit


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## Sairy

Did anyone just see Piers Morgan discussing this on Good Morning Britain?


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## Happy Paws2

Surely there are things women do better than men and the other way round, we don't have to be equal in everything.


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## Jesthar

Sairy said:


> Did anyone just see Piers Morgan discussing this on Good Morning Britain?


No, never watch breakfast TV unless the Olympics is on 

What did he say?


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## Sairy

Jesthar said:


> No, never watch breakfast TV unless the Olympics is on
> 
> What did he say?


He was arguing with Lisa Nandy of the Labour Party. He was basically expressing the views on here that it is unfair for trans women to compete against cis women for the reasons mentioned. If I can then I will post it up on here.


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## Lurcherlad

Sairy said:


> Did anyone just see Piers Morgan discussing this on Good Morning Britain?


I try not to listen to anything he has to say (usually) tbh


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## Sairy

Lurcherlad said:


> I try not to listen to anything he has to say (usually) tbh


Me too usually, however I turned on the TV and they happened to be discussing this so I watched with interest. Piers actually came off a lot better than the Labour leader.


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## Jesthar

Sairy said:


> He was arguing with Lisa Nandy of the Labour Party. He was basically expressing the views on here that it is unfair for trans women to compete against cis women for the reasons mentioned. If I can then I will post it up on here.


Well, at least he's worth the oxygen some of the time!

Saw something on FB the other day where someone shared a tweet that actually said only trans women could truly speak for all women, as only they, not biological women, can experience the full range of misogny (or words to that effect. Can't find the post right now, but it may have been shot as it did contain some of the terms militant trans advocates use to insult anyone who doesn't agree with them).


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## Siskin

Jesthar said:


> Well, at least he's worth the oxygen some of the time!
> 
> Saw something on FB the other day where someone shared a tweet that actually said only trans women could truly speak for all women, as only they, not biological women, can experience the full range of misogny (or words to that effect. Can't find the post right now, but it may have been shot as it did contain some of the terms militant trans advocates use to insult anyone who doesn't agree with them).


I recall reading that somewhere a month or two ago. After shaking my head in sheer disbelief I just burst out laughing. I would really like a trans women to put up with messy painful monthly periods and having morning sickness before coming out with such rubbish


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## Cleo38

Jesthar said:


> Well, at least he's worth the oxygen some of the time!
> 
> Saw something on FB the other day where someone shared a tweet that actually said *only trans women could truly speak for all women, as only they, not biological women, can experience the full range of misogny* (or words to that effect. Can't find the post right now, but it may have been shot as it did contain some of the terms militant trans advocates use to insult anyone who doesn't agree with them).


Yes, I've read that before ... only demonstrates how mad things are now


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## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> I try not to listen to anything he has to say (usually) tbh


I saw a bit this morning . he's still going on about Meghan . Get over it, Piers ! 
Sometimes I do agree with him though.


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## kimthecat

They've been discussing on the news a new film out, about how Women's Lib interrupted the Miss World Contest in 1970 I think. They had women who were there , from both sides . The woman who won that year was there and the original protesters.
I hope young women will see it and realise how much Womens lib did back then and how bad the sexism was and not insult older women and call them TERFS,


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## Billbailey

Is that what that film is about? I've seen the trailer but I usually mute the ads and do something else on the rare occasions I watch commercial channels. 

I think a lot of the present wooley thinking is the young, both boys and girls, not knowing the history of the Women's Movement. It should be a topic in history classes. Along with watching 70s sitcoms which are a very good reflection of the prevalent attitudes of the time. People under 30 have no real idea of what life was like then.


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## kimthecat

Billbailey said:


> Is that what that film is about? I've seen the trailer but I usually mute the ads and do something else on the rare occasions I watch commercial channels.
> 
> I think a lot of the present wooley thinking is the young, both boys and girls, not knowing the history of the Women's Movement. It should be a topic in history classes. Along with watching 70s sitcoms which are a very good reflection of the prevalent attitudes of the time. People under 30 have no real idea of what life was like then.


Yes. Misbehaviour .

Thats a good idea. They still show those 70s comedies on Freeview, On the Buses


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## O2.0

kimthecat said:


> Sometimes I do agree with him though.


Even a broken clock is right twice a day! 

I remember reading Naomi Wolf back in the nineties, one of her claims was that historically, in western society, when women make strides towards equality, that society subconsciously works to undermine the forward progress someway. For example how strictly we evaluate female 'beauty'.
_The more legal and material hindrances women have broken through, the more strictly and heavily and cruelly images of female beauty have come to weigh upon us ... [D]uring the past decade, women breached the power structure; meanwhile, eating disorders rose exponentially and cosmetic surgery became the fastest-growing specialty ...More women have more money and power and scope and legal recognition than we have ever had before; but in terms of how we feel about ourselves physically, we may actually be worse off than our unliberated grandmothers_​
I remember reading it at the time and thinking it was a tad of a stretch to say societal expectations for women were a direct reaction to newly acquired freedoms, but I'm starting to think with the ridiculousness going on now, she might have been on to something.

Men trying to take equality away from women by claiming womanhood for themselves. Who would have anticipated that?!


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## Siskin

O2.0 said:


> Even a broken clock is right twice a day!
> 
> I remember reading Naomi Wolf back in the nineties, one of her claims was that historically, in western society, when women make strides towards equality, that society subconsciously works to undermine the forward progress someway. For example how strictly we evaluate female 'beauty'.
> _The more legal and material hindrances women have broken through, the more strictly and heavily and cruelly images of female beauty have come to weigh upon us ... [D]uring the past decade, women breached the power structure; meanwhile, eating disorders rose exponentially and cosmetic surgery became the fastest-growing specialty ...More women have more money and power and scope and legal recognition than we have ever had before; but in terms of how we feel about ourselves physically, we may actually be worse off than our unliberated grandmothers_​
> I remember reading it at the time and thinking it was a tad of a stretch to say societal expectations for women were a direct reaction to newly acquired freedoms, but I'm starting to think with the ridiculousness going on now, she might have been on to something.
> 
> Men trying to take equality away from women by claiming womanhood for themselves. Who would have anticipated that?!


Your last paragraph resonated, ive been thinking along these lines for some time. It almost seems like everything that women have achieved for equality, nothing more just the chance to be equal with men, is going to be eroded away again


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## Magyarmum

Harvey Weinstein has just been sentenced to 23 years in jail for rape and criminal sex acts.


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## Billbailey

Good! Have to admit I wasn't expecting him to get a long sentence and I doubt he will serve it in prison, more likely a hospital. But still.... the fact that justice has been served to a man with his wealth and power gives me hope.


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## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> Harvey Weinstein has just been sentenced to 23 years in jail for rape and criminal sex acts.


Nd that's just the first trial
He has another in LA to face
Odious creature


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## Dave S

Even though there were a couple of Not Guilty verdicts I think justice has been seen to be done and he will not bother any other women in the future. I believe he is now on suicide watch in prison - wonder if he will try.


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