# Abortions



## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

Abortion investigation: Chief Medical Officer writes to all abortion clinics to remind them of law - Telegraph

God I am seething!!

As someone who has had a miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy I think this is disgraceful!!


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## AmberNero (Jun 6, 2010)

Oh good lord  I am very pro-choice, but never for this kind of superficial reason! I'm shocked. Genuinely shocked.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

its disgusting it can be done, its a sick world we live in


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Im sorry for what you've gone through hun 

It is disgusting I agree , but if those parents who say they wanted the baby aborted because of its sex were then told that wasnt allowed , surely they would simply find another excuse for not having it

In the end if someone doesnt want a baby , for whatever reason , no-one can force them to go through with the birth


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2012)

you know this is exactly the reason why when i were having my own kids they stopped telling you at the hospital i were having my check ups at what the sex of you`re baby was , as some folks were finding out then having their pregnancies terminated why this rule can`t be implemented again to stop this i have no idea , should be law.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

most hospitals wont tell you now, I was lucky as i saw DSs bits lol!

No one makes you keep the baby, there are plenty of couples happy to adopt.

In places like India this is rife too, us girls just arent good enough


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diablo said:


> you know this is exactly the reason why when i were having my own kids they stopped telling you at the hospital i were having my check ups at what the sex of you`re baby was , as some folks were finding out then having their pregnancies terminated why this rule can`t be implemented again to stop this i have no idea , should be law.


That's just awful
I asked about the sex of my youngest (she was a girl but they said boy), what if they got the sex wrong?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

and we all know who these people are don't we, not been racist of cause.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> That's just awful
> I asked about the sex of my youngest (she was a girl but they said boy), what if they got the sex wrong?


they often do , sadly it doesn`t stop people , just turns out to be a sad waste of a little life , but isn`t it anyway regardless of them being told and deciding on having an abortion purely because of a babies sex ?


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## Mophie (Sep 20, 2011)

I was watching reports about this on the news its disgusting to think that other human beings are willingly to be so shallow. 

I'll admit I'd prefer boys to girls but whatever we get we'd be happy providing its happy and healthy.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

why should the sex of a baby be so important, i cant understand some people,sooo many couples would give anything to have a baby, not a boy or a girl.....just a baby.


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

I heard this on the radio today.... I think it's appaulling that they allow abortions so late anyway 

24 weeks is shocking, my friend gave birth at 25 weeks, and whilst it was touch and go, and there have been medical problems along the way, she now amazingly has a healthy and happy 9 year old.

I think anything after about 12 weeks is too far personally.

But aborting because a gender isn't right is sickening.

I am unable to have children, and for people to abuse the gift of a perfect life because it doesn't fit into the perfect world they want to create is sickening.

I can understand later abortions for medical reasons, but even then it upsets me greatly.


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## Cazza1974 (Sep 23, 2009)

I saw this on the news and I was disgusted by it. A termination due to a babies gender  Very very dangerous ground to be treading on and so glad its illegal. 
An abortion is a hard desicion to come to in most cases. It is hard to deal with and the thought of someone being so flippant about ending a life really angers me.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I too have had a miscarriage and cannot have children. At first I was horrified that people are using such a shallow excuse to end a potential life - but when you think about it, is it really any worse than the person who decides on an abortion because having a baby (of any gender) doesn't fit in with their present lifestyle?



Happy Paws said:


> and we all know who these people are don't we, not been racist of cause.


No, we don't - do please tell us. The article quoted spoke about couples who didn't want a boy and did not mention either names or race. How did you get from that to your comment above?



Starlite said:


> .
> 
> In places like India this is rife too, us girls just arent good enough


The article said nothing about girls being aborted in favour of boys. It actually quoted three people who wanted boys aborting because they wanted a girl.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Space Chick said:


> I heard this on the radio today.... I think it's appaulling that they allow abortions so late anyway
> 
> 24 weeks is shocking, my friend gave birth at 25 weeks, and whilst it was touch and go, and there have been medical problems along the way, she now amazingly has a healthy and happy 9 year old.
> 
> I think anything after about 12 weeks is too far personally.


I agree. My friend miscarried at 23 weeks - but thankfully her baby survived and we have just celebrated her 21st birthday. It makes me feel physically sick when I think that babies older than that are being aborted - for whatever reason.


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## catlover0581 (Jan 14, 2012)

i would close this thread now OP, before people start getting really irrate/upset. this is a very strong subject and fur could start flying!


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I too have had a miscarriage and cannot have children. At first I was horrified that people are using such a shallow excuse to end a potential life - but when you think about it,* is it really any worse than the person who decides on an abortion because having a baby (of any gender) doesn't fit in with their present lifestyle?
> *
> 
> no you are right there
> ...


Late abortions should not be allowed, it is murder when you have to inject a heart to stop it beating imo. I am only for ethical losses (ie when the mothers life is in danger) but that's just me.

Having a son who spend the first week of his little life in Neonatal receiving numerous test (inc a lumbar puncture at 2 days old) and antibiotics i am honestly just thankful he is healthy and hope the same for my next baby


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but when you think about it, is it really any worse than the person who decides on an abortion because having a baby (of any gender) doesn't fit in with their present lifestyle?


Strictly speaking this too is illegal. The grounds for abortion are if the mother's health is threatened. The problems is that this has now been interpreted as mental health too, and 'being unhappy' about something is now considered sufficient reason to affect mental health. :nonod:
It's a sad reflection on our so called 'civilised' society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually :nonod:


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

You can have an abortion at any time until that baby is born. 24 weeks is the limit that 2 docs have to agree. IF something happens to mum/baby after the 24 week limit its down to consultants e.t.c if they feel its better for the baby to be aborted even at 39weeks 


I sit on the fence, i am disgusted by it and always will be i do not like abortions that are used for contraception e.t.c 

BUT i do feel its better to have an abortion, then a baby go through a life of neglect and abuse and to die a horrible death through parents who didnt want it


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Strictly speaking this too is illegal. The grounds for abortion are if the mother's health is threatened. The problems is that this has now been interpreted as mental health too, and 'being unhappy' about something is now considered sufficient reason to affect mental health. :nonod:
> It's a sad reflection on our so called 'civilised' society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually :nonod:


I agree. That's what my point was about, really. Society seems to have accepted that women have the right to a choice about abortion and so, despite the legalities, most abortions these days are lifestyle choices and nothing to do with the health of the mother. That's what started me thinking about what the difference is between one lifestyle choice and another? (ie aborting a baby because they don't want a baby at this moment in time, or aborting a baby because they don't want that particular gender) Both seem equally abhorrent to me.


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## Mophie (Sep 20, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Strictly speaking this too is illegal. The grounds for abortion are if the mother's health is threatened. The problems is that this has now been interpreted as mental health too, and 'being unhappy' about something is now considered sufficient reason to affect mental health. :nonod:
> It's a sad reflection on our so called 'civilised' society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually :nonod:


What if the baby was conceived through rape?


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## Golgotha_tramp (Feb 27, 2011)

woah woah woah.... Abhorrent?

So if a women is using protection as she has no intention of having children and that protection fails (which does happen) you would prefer her to carry that child to term and put it up to adoption?!

Bearing in mind that most women want their _own_ children, how is aborting more abhorrent then a society that looks over a child with no parents in a orphanage and makes a carbon copy of themselves.

Moreover, some of these women *not* aborting children are the same ones this very forum rants and raves about "paying the way" for and "unfit mothers" and "never should be allowed children".

I wish I could see things so clear cut but to call a woman who (has used appropriate protection) falls pregnant and takes a long hard look at their life and accepts they cannot support a child abhorrent is just mind boggling.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Here it's illegal anyway except I think where the mother's life is in danger. In Ireland they even tried or succeeded in stopping a teen rape victim having an abortion . To have an abortion based on the gender is just sick and to have it so late on is even worse.

I thought up to 12 weeks you could have it with little justification but of course you wouldn't know the gender then after that there had to be medical justification so the mother's physical or psychological welfare was at risk or the baby was seriously ill . Not just I don't want a boy/girl kill it


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> woah woah woah.... Abhorrent?
> 
> So if a women is using protection as she has no intention of having children and that protection fails (which does happen) you would prefer her to carry that child to term and put it up to adoption?!
> 
> ...


Then you have a abortion at 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 weeks not 22 weeks  Not that it's something i could do. Not at 22 weeks when the baby could live


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## Golgotha_tramp (Feb 27, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> Then you have a abortion at 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 weeks not 22 weeks  Not that it's something i could do. Not at 22 weeks when the baby could live





Spellweaver said:


> That's what started me thinking about what the difference is between one lifestyle choice and another? (ie aborting a baby because they don't want a baby at this moment in time, or aborting a baby because they don't want that particular gender) Both seem equally abhorrent to me.


No mention of a time frame on this disgust.

timings of abortion for me, if you have to, the earlier the better.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Strictly speaking this too is illegal. The grounds for abortion are if the mother's health is threatened. The problems is that this has now been interpreted as mental health too, and *'being unhappy' about something is now considered sufficient reason to affect mental health*. :nonod:
> It's a sad reflection on our so called 'civilised' society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually :nonod:


As someone who has moderate to severe depression I find it frustrating that some people use the whole 'I'm a bit unhappy right now therefore I must be depressed' excuse, it's an insult to those with genuine mental health problems & only serves to make it hard to define the line between someone who genuinely needs support & people who use it to get their own way


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

if its anything like i saw on yahoo i wont be reading it, am against abortions anyway, but its coming very close to my little girls would have been 10th birthday so id end up balling the house down if i read it, i read on yahoo that some doctors was agreeing to abort a pregnancy just because of the sex of the baby, am guessing this is the same.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What if the baby was conceived through rape?


I didn't mean to infer that mental health issues should not be considered, but that someone's 'happiness' or it not being the right time are not mental health issues. As Simplysardonic says, mental health is a real problem and illness but that is completely different to someone not being happy or ready about a situation.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

x PIXIE x said:


> Abortion investigation: Chief Medical Officer writes to all abortion clinics to remind them of law - Telegraph
> 
> God I am seething!!
> 
> As someone who has had a miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy I think this is disgraceful!!


am with you on this as i really don't agree with them unless they are done for a good reason ie
falling pregnant via rape
something really wrong with the unborn child that would prevent it being born alive

i am dead against abortions but they can't be stopped 100% as there is sometimes a good reason to have one, but i think the people that are having them because they are having a boy but want a girl or because the baby has a cleft lip/pallet are 100% wrong and no way should they be allowed 
and as for using abortions as a form of contreception (a ex friend of mine kept doing this) they are just as bad as the people having a abortion just because its a girl or boy


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## Mophie (Sep 20, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I didn't mean to infer that mental health issues should not be considered, but that someone's 'happiness' or it not being the right time are not mental health issues. As Simplysardonic says, mental health is a real problem and illness but that is completely different to someone not being happy or ready about a situation.


OK but my point is what if the mothers mental health is sound despite the crime commited but the baby was conceived through rape? Essentially if I have understood your point correctly you'd disapprove of the mother aborting that baby because it would've made her unhappy to keep it?

I'm just trying to understand your view point as on this subject I wade through the murky waters of really not knowing how I feel. Well no I do know but it's on a case by case basis in my mind if that makes sense.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> woah woah woah.... Abhorrent?
> 
> So if a women is using protection as she has no intention of having children and that protection fails (which does happen) you would prefer her to carry that child to term and put it up to adoption?!
> 
> ...


Yes, I do find it abhorrent that someone can decide to end a life just because it does not fit in with their plans. I make no apologies for that. If someone does not want a child, or cannot support a child, rather than getting rid of it as a mere inconvenience, I think it is far better to allow the child to live and be adopted.

And whilst I would agree with you that most women do want their own children, there are far more than enough women who can't have children and are willing and able to adopt a child not wanted by its birth mother.



Golgotha_tramp said:


> No mention of a time frame on this disgust.
> .


No, but there was earlier:



Spellweaver said:


> I agree. My friend miscarried at 23 weeks - but thankfully her baby survived and we have just celebrated her 21st birthday. It makes me feel physically sick when I think that babies older than that are being aborted - for whatever reason.


ETA - you do realise that, in the scenario you outline above, an abortion would be illegal in this country? A woman deciding she cannot afford to bring up a child is not a legal reason for an abortion. Think about that, and the reasons for it.


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## Golgotha_tramp (Feb 27, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> And whilst I would agree with you that most women do want their own children, there are far more than enough women who can't have children and are willing and able to adopt a child not wanted by its birth mother.


Adoption rates

adoption rates are falling and more children are going into care - surely this shouldn't be a last resort only for people unable to have children. If we are talking about a "society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually". Surely a mother choosing an "own" baby is considering those adoptive children's lives just as casually as a woman choosing to abort?

I think neither are perfect but are down to the individual - you called one abhorrent.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

catlover0581 said:


> i would close this thread now OP, before people start getting really irrate/upset. this is a very strong subject and fur could start flying!


I saw the title and thought...Uh Oh!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm anti-abortion unless the mum's health is seriously threatened or the baby will be severely disabled but banning it wouldn't do anything. People would go to backstreet butchers and end up paying with their lives in unsafe conditions performed by people who have no idea what they're doing. It should be legal if with much tighter restrictions


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> woah woah woah.... Abhorrent?
> 
> So if a women is using protection as she has no intention of having children and that protection fails (which does happen) you would prefer her to carry that child to term and put it up to adoption?!
> 
> ...


Yes, I'd say it's pretty abhorrent to abort a child because it is not convenient or the 'right' time.

It should be remembered that the law was brought in at a time when there was a huge stigma attached to having children outside marriage. Women were sent away till birth and babies taken away (there was seldom any opportunity to keep the baby), and women had back street abortions which often cost them their lives. The world we live in now is very different. There is no longer the stigma attached to being born outside marriage, nor to being a single mum. There may be some genuine reasons (and as someone who volunteers for a charity for children with special needs, I'm not sure that having a less than perfect baby is reason enough either), but it is far to common to abort babies because of inconvenience.

I am against abortion, but not against people making their own choice so wouldn't like to see it made illegal. However, I find it abhorrent that it is used by so many as some form of contraception or to rectify and accident.


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> Adoption rates
> 
> adoption rates are falling and more children are going into care - surely this shouldn't be a last resort only for people unable to have children. If we are talking about a "society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually". Surely a mother choosing an "own" baby is considering those adoptive children's lives just as casually as a woman choosing to abort?
> 
> ...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> Adoption rates
> 
> adoption rates are falling and more children are going into care - surely this shouldn't be a last resort only for people unable to have children. If we are talking about a "society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually". Surely a mother choosing an "own" baby is considering those adoptive children's lives just as casually as a woman choosing to abort?
> 
> I think neither are perfect but are down to the individual - you called one abhorrent.


The choice is not down to the individual but down to the law - and in this country it is illegal to have an abortion because it doesn't suit your present circumstances. It happens and it happens often, because doctors fiddle the paperwork and get round the legalities. But now people are up in arms because they are doing that over abortions due to gender choice. Hence my original point - what is the difference between someone who aborts because they don't want a baby just yet, and someone who aborts because they don't want a boy or a girl this time? None at all. Both are illegal in this country. Both are lifestyle choices. Both choices are abhorrent to me.

As for adoption - surely it's better to be adopted than to never even have a chance at life?


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

What your saying however goes against a women's natural instinct to have her own children. We are driven by our hormones to have maternal children. You can't just change that because there are lots of babies needing adopting which is of course very sad.[/QUOTE]

it might be a natural instinct to have your OWN child your OWN flesh and blood but there is people out there there can't naturaly or via ivf so adoption of a baby is the only way they will ever become parents, 
it's not all about who can get pregnant,
people don't do adoption just because they want a child but can't be bothered to give birth adoption is aimed at the poor familys that cant fall pregnant but want to become parents and adopting is the ONLY way this can happen


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

This is absolutely outragous.Abortions should only been done if the woman has been raped or the baby has a condition which is going to cause it to die in pain shortly after birth.Having a child is a privelidge.Having my last nearly full term pregnancy ending in stillbirth,followed by three miscarriages,this thread has greatly pi''ed me off.
Serves me right,i shouldnt have read it.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> adoption rates are falling and more children are going into care - surely this shouldn't be a last resort only for people unable to have children. If we are talking about a "society and it's priorities that people can consider life so casually". Surely a mother choosing an "own" baby is considering those adoptive children's lives just as casually as a woman choosing to abort?
> 
> I think neither are perfect but are down to the individual - you called one abhorrent.


The difference is that someone chosing to adopt a child is looking to give a child a life. Someone chosing to abort a child is doing the exact opposite. I don't suppose either decision would be taken "casually" as you put it - at least I would hope it wasn't.

Oh, and just one other point - I have called no-one abhorrent. I have said _choosing to abort merely as a lifestyle choice_ is abhorrent to me. There is a difference.


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

purrr said:


> What your saying however goes against a women's natural instinct to have her own children. We are driven by our hormones to have maternal children. You can't just change that because there are lots of babies needing adopting which is of course very sad.


it might be a natural instinct to have your OWN child your OWN flesh and blood but there is people out there there can't naturaly or via ivf so adoption of a baby is the only way they will ever become parents, 
it's not all about who can get pregnant,
people don't do adoption just because they want a child but can't be bothered to give birth adoption is aimed at the poor familys that cant fall pregnant but want to become parents and adopting is the ONLY way this can happen[/QUOTE]

YesI know that and I never said it was all about who can get pregnant. How could you think I meant that. My repsonse was to the poster I quoted who said that a mother chossing to have her own babies rather then adopt was as bad a terminating a baby because you dont want it.

My comment has nothing to do with couples who cant have children but just saying that its not as simple as adopting all the babies before we have anymore. Hope that makes sense now.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Bjt said:


> This is absolutely outragous.Abortions should only been done if the woman has been raped or the baby has a condition which is going to cause it to die in pain shortly after birth.Having a child is a privelidge.Having my last nearly full term pregnancy ending in stillbirth,followed by three miscarriages,this thread has greatly pi''ed me off.
> Serves me right,i shouldnt have read it.


sorry to hear about your loses hun my heart goes out to you as i DO know how you are feeling x


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

SandyR said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> it might be a natural instinct to have your OWN child your OWN flesh and blood but there is people out there there can't naturaly or via ivf so adoption of a baby is the only way they will ever become parents,
> it's not all about who can get pregnant,
> people don't do adoption just because they want a child but can't be bothered to give birth adoption is aimed at the poor familys that cant fall pregnant but want to become parents and adopting is the ONLY way this can happen


YesI know that and I never said it was all about who can get pregnant. How could you think I meant that. My repsonse was to the poster I quoted who said that a mother chossing to have her own babies rather then adopt was as bad a terminating a baby because you dont want it.

aarrrggghhh the things still being a tit, hope you can see what i wrote lol
My comment has nothing to do with couples who cant have children but just saying that its not as simple as adopting all the babies before we have anymore. Hope that makes sense now.[/QUOTE]

sorry my comp didn't quote all of it and its being a real tit atm

it also wasn't ment to come across the way it did, i kinda ment that adoption is better than abortion as there is people out there that can't have children and i think adoption should be the first thing offered, sorry if it still coming across wrong i have a real hard job putting feelings to words when it comes to this kinda thing, but i think most got what i ment lol


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bjt said:


> This is absolutely outragous.Abortions should only been done if the woman has been raped or the baby has a condition which is going to cause it to die in pain shortly after birth.Having a child is a privelidge.Having my last nearly full term pregnancy ending in stillbirth,followed by three miscarriages,this thread has greatly pi''ed me off.
> Serves me right,i shouldnt have read it.


(((((hugs)))))

I think that people who have never gone through this sort of thing - ie people who have children - don't realise the emotional pain that miscarriages or stillbirths can cause.

Even hospitals don't realise. When I miscarried, I was put in a ward with three other women, all of whom had had terminations on the same day I miscarried. It was dreadful laying there, listening to them laugh and talk about how glad they were to be rid of their inconveniences, while I was falling to pieces inside because I had just lost the child we had been trying to conceive for over 10 years.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> (((((hugs)))))
> 
> I think that people who have never gone through this sort of thing - ie people who have children - don't realise the emotional pain that miscarriages or stillbirths can cause.
> 
> Even hospitals don't realise. When I miscarried, I was put in a ward with three other women, all of whom had had terminations on the same day I miscarried. It was dreadful laying there, listening to them laugh and talk about how glad they were to be rid of their inconveniences, while I was falling to pieces inside because I had just lost the child we had been trying to conceive for over 10 years.


i think this is a hospital thing as with both i was in the maternity ward with all the new babies crying and it is so heart breaking and they don't seem to care or understand


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

purrr said:


> YesI know that and I never said it was all about who can get pregnant. How could you think I meant that. My repsonse was to the poster I quoted who said that a mother chossing to have her own babies rather then adopt was as bad a terminating a baby because you dont want it.
> 
> My comment has nothing to do with couples who cant have children but just saying that its not as simple as adopting all the babies before we have anymore. Hope that makes sense now.


sorry my comp didn't quote all of it and its being a real tit atm

it also wasn't ment to come across the way it did, i kinda ment that adoption is better than abortion as there is people out there that can't have children and i think adoption should be the first thing offered, sorry if it still coming across wrong i have a real hard job putting feelings to words when it comes to this kinda thing, but i think most got what i ment lol[/QUOTE]

Thats ok hun, the quoting has gone a bit strange at the moment.

I don't agree with abortions myself and think that all babies should be given the chance to be adopted as long as the mothers life is not in danger.

There are so many loving families who could love these babies. if only it was a bit easier to adopt but thats another thread.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

[/QUOTE]

Thats ok hun, the quoting has gone a bit strange at the moment.

[/QUOTE]

am hoping its got it right but yeah it's doing my head in now lol i thought it was just my comp


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

Thats ok hun, the quoting has gone a bit strange at the moment.

[/QUOTE]

am hoping its got it right but yeah it's doing my head in now lol i thought it was just my comp[/QUOTE]

No it being strange. It's not all in the box and it's hard to tell the quoted from the reply half the time so probably looked like what I had quoted was what I had said as well. No wonder you were confused lol.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

purrr said:


> i think this is a hospital thing as with both i was in the maternity ward with all the new babies crying and it is so heart breaking and they don't seem to care or understand


This is so true. I complained at my hospital about the fact that when I went for outpatient visits after the miscarriage, it was in the maternity unit rather than the gynae unit. They didn't (or wouldn't) understand how painful it was to sit there with the expectant mothers. They wouldn't accept that it hurt to see all the posters about this stage of pregnancy and that stage of pregnancy all over the walls, or to have to listen to the video about giving birth, doing your breathing etc etc playing over and over again.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

But what if the child's life might be in danger, or if the baby might suffer a fate the mother finds unbearable?

I mean, there is a breast cancer gene in my family, and my cousin lost both breasts. By that time she had 2 daughters, but if she had known she was carrying this gene before the girls were born, I can imagine she might have decided not to have girls...
Boys can be carriers of the gene, but usually do not develop cancer. But to have a child and know there is a serious risk you condemn them to such a disease....

And what if you carry a gene that will only affect boys? Wouldn't you decide not to give birth to a boy, rather than condemning him to a gender-dependent disease?

I know a family with huntington disease. By the time you know you have it, you have children, who have a 50% chance of having it. Huntington is so cruel.... early onset dementia (starting between 30 and 35, usually), combined with depression, agression and fits of intense confuson and even insanity.....

If I knew I might be passing on that gene, I'd not want children unless I was sure they did not carry it.... But then I saw a very close friend deteriorate with huntington. She was fortunate, she suffered a fit, fell out of bed and broke her neck before she reached the stage where she would really have suffered unbearably. And now my colleague turns out to be from a huntngton family as well. Her mother is just about the age it would start to show, so the entire family is watching for signs.... 50% chance she has it, and if she has it, my colleague had a 50% chance too.

She will not have children until she is sure her mother doesn't carry the gene.....

So sometimes there is a reason for only wanting a boy or a girl. Not all hereditary diseases can be tested for during pregnancy....... And some are so bad you really do not want to pass them on to your child......


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## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

Just to add i have nothing against abortion at all, i am pro choice. BUT the news repirt showed a discussion that they were havibg one sex and actually wanted a different sex. its sickening that a life could be ended so late as its the wrong sex. a woman should be blessed that the pregnancy has been sustained and not be so shallow. There is no need fir discussion really as i cant see any reason why picking and choosing sex is even fair or moral.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

am not gonna muti quote as things will just get messed up lol...
to sandyr.. am glad its just not mine, it is getting really hard to read who has wrote what now lol

spellweaver.. yeah my first i was preg with a little girl and at just around 22wks (give or take a day) i was ill and started bleeding called the hospital just to get told its fine and if it's still like it in the morning to call my midwife  then after a hr it went tits up and we know the rest the hosp then put me in with all the new mums and i asked to be moved and got told they do it to help you get over it 

the 2nd i didnt know i was pregnant with him he was born but didnt make it and still they said to help you get over it, as i tried to tell them it doesn't help it just makes it worse cause like you said when you see all the photos of this week its doing this and that week its doing that, plus all the mums with new babies or bumps it hurts, they might at well rip your heart out and stick it in a blender


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> But what if the child's life might be in danger, or if the baby might suffer a fate the mother finds unbearable?
> 
> I mean, there is a breast cancer gene in my family, and my cousin lost both breasts. By that time she had 2 daughters, but if she had known she was carrying this gene before the girls were born, I can imagine she might have decided not to have girls...
> Boys can be carriers of the gene, but usually do not develop cancer. But to have a child and know there is a serious risk you condemn them to such a disease....
> ...


i can understand with the huntington disease its not a nice thing to have but just because you MIGHT pass something to a child is not a good reason, my mum had cancer/heart problems/liver failure and loads of other problems does that mean she souldn't have had 3 children because the risk of passing on a terminal illness!!
but if this was the case very little children would be born

yay my quote is working now lol


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

with my 2 i never gave a toss about the sex as long as they were healthy


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## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> (((((hugs)))))
> 
> I think that people who have never gone through this sort of thing - ie people who have children - don't realise the emotional pain that miscarriages or stillbirths can cause.
> 
> Even hospitals don't realise. When I miscarried, I was put in a ward with three other women, all of whom had had terminations on the same day I miscarried. It was dreadful laying there, listening to them laugh and talk about how glad they were to be rid of their inconveniences, while I was falling to pieces inside because I had just lost the child we had been trying to conceive for over 10 years.


Biggest hugs to you, people with kids find it really hard to understand the tornent and emotion you feel when you lose a baby. this month.has been hard for me as i would have been due. those around me assume im over it but how can you get over something ike that? you never get over it.

xxxxx


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## Iluvmypets (Jan 13, 2012)

diablo said:


> you know this is exactly the reason why when i were having my own kids they stopped telling you at the hospital i were having my check ups at what the sex of you`re baby was , as some folks were finding out then having their pregnancies terminated why this rule can`t be implemented again to stop this i have no idea , should be law.


That happened to me too and that was 25 years ago so it's not a new thing. It came about because the Asian population were aborting the girls where I lived back then, because boys were much more preferred especially as first borns.  So because of them I wasn't *allowed* to even know what kind of baby I was having! Do I look Asian? NO, so why penalise me!


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## Iluvmypets (Jan 13, 2012)

Starlite said:


> Late abortions should not be allowed, it is murder when you have to inject a heart to stop it beating


Holy crap is that what they do? :crying:


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Iluvmypets said:


> Holy crap is that what they do? :crying:


depends how far gone you are but mostly yes


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## Iluvmypets (Jan 13, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> (((((hugs)))))Even hospitals don't realise. When I miscarried, I was put in a ward with three other women, all of whom had had terminations on the same day I miscarried. It was dreadful laying there, listening to them laugh and talk about how glad they were to be rid of their inconveniences, while I was falling to pieces inside because I had just lost the child we had been trying to conceive for over 10 years.


Wow that is unbelievably crass and draconian, so sorry you had to go through that.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> (((((hugs)))))
> 
> I think that people who have never gone through this sort of thing - ie people who have children - don't realise the emotional pain that miscarriages or stillbirths can cause.
> 
> Even hospitals don't realise. When I miscarried, I was put in a ward with three other women, all of whom had had terminations on the same day I miscarried. It was dreadful laying there, listening to them laugh and talk about how glad they were to be rid of their inconveniences, while I was falling to pieces inside because I had just lost the child we had been trying to conceive for over 10 years.


Oh Hun , of all the replies on this thread yours made me cry  
Im truly sorry you were put through that , it was needless , and imo cruel , to put you in the same room as 3 others who choose to kill their babies :crying:

edit : Just read others of you were put through the same thing :crying:
How can a hospital with nurses and doctors who are supposed to care do this to a grieving woman , makes no sense at all in saying it will help you grieve , if anything it would make the process of dealing with your loss even harder


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I was lucky with the Hospital our little Kelly was born in, you have a private room away from the nursery and new moms. They put a postcard on your door with a leaf with a tear drop it signifies that you have just lost a baby so all Drs nurses etc know before entering not to be stupid...I was induced late into pregnancy some may call it abortion it wasn't I insisted on going through natural child birth and I also talked to all my Drs as if my baby was born alive I wanted her kept with me safe and warm and nourished. I also told them if they were wrong about their diagnosis I would ********* better not say that. My child had anencephaly(sp) her organs could not be used to save another child as I offered to carry to term if I could help another child. My oldest son is buried with kelly.


I don't believe in abortions for gender but do think there is a place for them. I also agree it should be on a individual case and presented for approval to a board...


Hoping this discussion continues to stay on track....


To all the moms and dads that have lost a baby a huge hug to you....Jill


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I am pro choice , However I am against stupidity, greed and gender selection except in cases of herditary illness.

My younger son nearly died during delivery , we nearly didnt get to that stage because of another medical blunder but thats another story..

Anyway 3 days after being sent home I collapsed hemorrhaging and was rushed into hospital for surgery...I insisted on taking my baby with me.. I didnt understand why I was put in a side room with him but soon found out it was because I wasnt on maternity but on gynaecology..

In the day room the women were discussing their reasons for being there and one woman explained ...Ive just had the house re-done I mean can you imagine a baby on white carpet ??? no it would be a disaster , so Im having it scraped dear...

After fighting to save and give birth to my son I could have easily slapped her.

This woman had no valid reason for an abortion, 
The law should adhered to and more advice offered instad of just ripping out babies left right and center because people dont want stretch marks or stains on their carpets ...

_To comply with the 1967 Abortion Act, two doctors must give their consent, stating that to continue with the pregnancy would present a risk to the physical or mental health of the woman or her existing children. _

Note this makes no mention of carpet damage....


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Omfg that is just disgraceful, Im pro life anyway but to kill a child for its sex is just a bastard act. So many couples that cant concieve that would give the child a life and love, how can someone justify it at all.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't know if the other mum's who've lost babies are in the UK, but the maternity system here sucks in comparison with other countries. I lost a baby after full term, and I still think it was down to the midwife not knowing which date to put on the forms, so I was most likely 40 + 3 weeks, not the 40 + 10 days my paperwork indicated, and two days off being induced. I asked for it all to be reviewed, and during the review, the consultant just got out the scans of my Baby and started explaining to me in scientific terms just how they were right and I was wrong about the dates, I didn't react very well. 

I just don't think you can legislate for this sort of thing, there will always be situations that mean a woman would like to abort, but as others have said, as a contraception I think it's wrong. If you choose to conceive a child and there are ways you could otherwise prevent that child from being conceived in the first place if you don't want to have a child at all, you shouldn't be able to just say that it'll make you unhappy, so you can get rid.


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

Spellweaver - reading your post has made me cry.

When I had my last set of Gynae tests, the ones that confirmed I couldn't have a child, I was sent to a Maternity ward for the tests and to see the consultant.

As I was told I wouldn't be able to have a family, I had to walk through the maternity section to see people with teddy bears, balloons, all happy and smiley with their new born babies. It was honestly one of the most traumatic experiences I've had. When you are dying inside as you see these people that have been given the gift you can't have 

I've made peace with it now, and am very fortunate that my sister now has a little boy, and he is my world. 

When my friend had a miscarriage she was put with 3 women who'd had abortions, she said it was hell.


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## Tallyho (Feb 18, 2012)

Im in favour for women having abortions if for the right reasons, but certainly not just because of its not the sex you wanted, i think that is disgusting.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

First of all i havent read the whole thread so if i repeat anyone i dont mean to.

I am surprised someone was brave enough to open this thread:lol:

Im dead against abortion unless its for severe medical reasons and rape..if a woman is raped there is nothing to stop them getting the morning after pill, its not rocket science.
I know i will be stoned for this but i dont care :blushing: The article says people are picking the gender of their child be it boy or girl..now i think we all know that the majority of abortions are girls and the majority of the parents are from a minority in this country..it also said on the news yesterday that it was asian doctors who 'dont ask questions'...ummmm wonder why?! 

If a member of the 'minority' want an abortion past the cut off point then imvho they should go to a country where they allow it, they SHOULD NOT be given it on the nhs! Its sickening!!!!! 
These doctors that 'dont ask questions' should be tried for murder!

It angers me when i hear people defending abortions and the way they talk about a 'foeatus' and that its not a baby until its born  in my eyes as soon as that foetus hits a stage of maturity where it could survive with medical help then its 100% baby!

Oh and of anyone has watched the video in the link the woman is carrying a girl, was hoping for a boy.


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

i wouldn't care what sex my child was , it would simply just be a bundle of joy to whatever i had , if i had any, i have got a very slim chance of having kids and watching or hearing things on the news about aborting a child due to what sex it is make me feel sick to the stomach , would they do this to every wrong sex that they have... sorry but they don't deserve to be parents imo

i feel so sorry for parents like those members on here that have lost their's no one can know what they have gone through until they have been through it themselves ((((hugs))))


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

harley bear said:


> First of all i havent read the whole thread so if i repeat anyone i dont mean to.
> 
> I am surprised someone was brave enough to open this thread:lol:
> 
> ...


I think that most women would find rape a very traumatic experience so may not be thinking straight. It's very easy to say 'just get the monring after pill' without knowing or understanding peoples circumstances. it may be easier to obtain but some chemists don't make this easy for people. A few years ago I need to get this so went in to a branch of Boots. the chemist in there made it very obvious to everyone in the are what I was there for & how 'irresponsible' I had been. Luckily i didn't give sh*t what she thought but what if I had been raped? What if I had been a scared teenager? I may just have gone home & hoped that I wasn't pregnant

As for your other comments maybe you should read the article & other comments before you make incorrect judegements. The women who requested the terminations were from a variety of ethnic backgrounds & it was also boys who were to be terminated


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I think that most women would find rape a very traumatic experience so may not be thinking straight. It's very easy to say 'just get the monring after pill' without knowing or understanding peoples circumstances. it may be easier to obtain but some chemists don't make this easy for people. A few years ago I need to get this so went in to a branch of Boots. the chemist in there made it very obvious to everyone in the are what I was there for & how 'irresponsible' I had been. Luckily i didn't give sh*t what she thought but what if I had been raped? What if I had been a scared teenager? I may just have gone home & hoped that I wasn't pregnant
> 
> As for your other comments maybe you should read the article & other comments before you make incorrect judegements. The women who requested the terminations were from a variety of ethnic backgrounds & it was also boys who were to be terminated


Maybe a womans head wouldnt be in the right place the day after but the morning after pill works for 3 days after the sexual encounter..so surely it would cross a womans mind by then..i know it would be the first thing on my mind!

I dont care where these women come from who want to select the gender of theor child and kill it if its the wrong one! No matter where they come from if they want to abort their child because its the wrong sex then they should go to a country who allows this to happen! 
Its sick beyond question, these people have no morals, thats the doctors AND the parents!


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

im pro choice,
but im against women terminating because of the sex of the child.
i do feel this isnt what the NHS is for


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

harley bear said:


> Maybe a womans head wouldnt be in the right place the day after but the morning after pill works for 3 days after the sexual encounter..so surely it would cross a womans mind by then..i know it would be the first thing on my mind!
> 
> I dont care where these women come from who want to select the gender of theor child and kill it if its the wrong one! No matter where they come from if they want to abort their child because its the wrong sex then they should go to a country who allows this to happen!
> Its sick beyond question, these people have no morals, thats the doctors AND the parents!


and also if the rape is reported to the police right after the incedent then when they have done all there test's they offer the woman/girl the morning after pill to stop any pregnancy that might result from it


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

canuckjill i love the idea of the sign on the door.
just to remind the staff to be sensitive.
what a fantastic idea.
i means someone with forsight has thought things through and actually care about the mums who have had a trauma.
its forward thinking.
lots of mums here in uk are not treated well at all .
i dont understand why people have no empathy in the maternity


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Maybe a womans head wouldnt be in the right place the day after but the morning after pill works for 3 days after the sexual encounter..so surely it would cross a womans mind by then..i know it would be the first thing on my mind!


And how many times have you been raped? I think it is extremely callous to suggest that it is a woman's own fault if she gets pregnant from rape because she should have been in the right state of mind to seek help within 3 days! Many are in shock or so traumatised that they can't accept what happened to them straight away or are too scared to go out in public. Not to mention that the morning after pill is far from 100% effective if not taken within the first day.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm not going to bother because it is obviously a heated topic and I don't want to get into an argument. All I will say though is that just because YOU believe something is morally wrong doesn't man it should be illegal. I go by the philosophy that you should try not to judge someone on their actions unless you have been in their situation.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> All I will say though is that just because YOU believe something is morally wrong doesn't man it should be illegal. I go by the philosophy that you should try not to judge someone on their actions unless you have been in their situation.


I would like to think that all humans value life, but obviously I'm wrong!


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I would like to think that all humans value life, *but obviously I'm wrong!*


I would like to think that all humans wouldn't make broad, sweeping assumptions on people they have never met based on one general comment they have read on the internet, but obviously I'm wrong !


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Im Pro Choice but this is absolutley ridiculous!!!! I would give my left arm to be pregnant right now and would be so happy with either sex .....whilst I agree that women should have the choice to abort this reason to abort imo is sick and twisted .......it should be stopped.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

I think it is disgusting, a couple should have a baby because they want a baby no matter what the sex, you should love that child regardless. If for some medical reason ( I had two) an abortion should be done then so be it as that is totally different. But to do it because they dont want a certain sex is DISGUSTING. Just looking on Youtube on how they do it PUTS ME IN SUCH A WICKED MOOD, it is barbaric


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I am pro choice but do find some womens reasons for terminating a pregnancy hard to understand especially when they have not used contraception.

However, much as I would find late abortions quite disturbing I think in cases these can nbe justified. Some conditions cannot be identified until later into a pregnancy & would cause the unborn child so many difficulties that a termination may be considered a 'better' option. I have never been a positon like that so would never condemn any parent for having to make such an awful decision.


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## Iluvmypets (Jan 13, 2012)

Space Chick said:


> Spellweaver - reading your post has made me cry.
> 
> When I had my last set of Gynae tests, the ones that confirmed I couldn't have a child, I was sent to a Maternity ward for the tests and to see the consultant.
> 
> ...


So so sorry you had to go through that X


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I only heard of 'Gender Disappointment' this year and I have to say it is something I have a very hard time understanding, nevermind taking it to the extreme of terminating a pregnancy on that account. If you have been trying to conceive, to me it seems the most alien thing in the world not to feel anything but unconditional love for your baby. 

I am undoubtedly pro-choice though in this country abortion is still illegal- not that it really makes a difference as women who require them go to England or elsewhere in their thousands every year for them.


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

i could never abort but i dont condem others that do. but its a pathetic reason for doing it, unfortunately its people from contries that put a high price on a male than female as dowries ect for women to marry men.
i think it should be just for women of rape ect, as this wasnt there doing but for the teenagers in this day an age no they are old enough to open there legs without using anything there old enough to take care of the consiquenses. unfortunately for those it tends to be the tax payer who has to foot the bill.
if they dont want the child they should keep there knickers on and legs shut.
for the ones that dont want the hassel of a certain sex they should do the same incase its the wrong sex.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

in my opinion if you have sex you have to expect that a life *COULD* be created no matter how safe you think your contraception is. So if your willing to enjoy the sex then make sure you can look after the baby that comes after not just flush it away. 
Abortion for gender is disgusting  I dont believe in abortion for any reason other than if the mothers life is in danger or rape, in which case i think that the police should have to be informed and the rape investigated, not just the mother crying rape.
if women dont want a baby...... well dont have sex or use a condom and another form of protection to fall back on. Or shock horror there is this thing called morning after pill.

If you do find your self pregnant and you can medically go through with a pregnancy then i think women should have the baby and give it up for adoption at birth..... there are so many couples waiting to adopt and are having to go abroad  why should women be able to choose the easy way out? Abortion should be kept for extreme circumstances only

this is just my opinion


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Set_Nights said:


> And how many times have you been raped? I think it is extremely callous to suggest that it is a woman's own fault if she gets pregnant from rape because she should have been in the right state of mind to seek help within 3 days! Many are in shock or so traumatised that they can't accept what happened to them straight away or are too scared to go out in public. Not to mention that the morning after pill is far from 100% effective if not taken within the first day.
> 
> As for the rest of the thread, I'm not going to bother because it is obviously a heated topic and I don't want to get into an argument. All I will say though is that just because YOU believe something is morally wrong doesn't man it should be illegal. I go by the philosophy that you should try not to judge someone on their actions unless you have been in their situation.


DONT even go there!!!!!
The thread is about aborting because of gender...i said in my forst post that i am againts abortion unless in extream reasons. Im not prepared to discuss rape with you any further.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

harley bear said:


> First of all i havent read the whole thread so if i repeat anyone i dont mean to.
> 
> I am surprised someone was brave enough to open this thread:lol:
> 
> ...


I haven't read all of this, but just had to comment on this part! The morning after pill doesnt always work! Trust me. My first pregnancy was the result of this "lovely" act. I reported it straight away (he went away for it) and at the hospital i was given the morning after pill. I still ended up pregnant. I ummed and ahhed about what to do, eventually decided to keep it and then went on to miscarry (could have been the effects of the morning after pill, we will never know).

I am very pro-choice but for genuine reasons, as others have said.

Gender should not be an issue.
Slight disabilities (such as cleft lip) should not be an issue.
It shouldnt be used as contraception or because things are inconvenient.

You do have to wonder where the sense of decency and the intelligence of society have gone.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

WelshOneEmma said:


> I haven't read all of this, but just had to comment on this part! The morning after pill doesnt always work! Trust me. My first pregnancy was the result of this "lovely" act. I reported it straight away (he went away for it) and at the hospital i was given the morning after pill. I still ended up pregnant. I ummed and ahhed about what to do, eventually decided to keep it and then went on to miscarry (could have been the effects of the morning after pill, we will never know).
> 
> I am very pro-choice but for genuine reasons, as others have said.
> 
> ...


No, there is not one contraceptive that is 100% affective and i wouldnt judge a woman who did get an abortion after a rape..i was merely pointing out that there are other avenues to prevent a possible pregnancy.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

harley bear said:


> No, there is not one contraceptive that is 100% affective and i wouldnt judge a woman who did get an abortion after a rape..i was merely pointing out that there are other avenues to prevent a possible pregnancy.


I realise that but people seem to think "take the morning after pill, it will be fine". I didnt realise it doesnt always work until i was stood there with a positive test and the dr told me it doesnt always work - and i took it the day after.

I will be honest, I am not sure what situation i would need to be in to have an abortion, but at the same time i dont judge someone else decision. Its not my right to tell someone what they can do with their body (and until the baby is at 24 weeks its still their right as the baby is not viable). I do agree its hard though as i do think life begins at conception.

I would right now be thrilled just to be pregnant but unless i knew the exact circumstances i wouldnt judge.

But to abort due to gender (or as was mentioned, new white carpets), you kinda want to make sure they couldnt have any more if it means that little to them.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marley boy said:


> in my opinion if you have sex you have to expect that a life *COULD* be created no matter how safe you think your contraception is. So if your willing to enjoy the sex then make sure you can look after the baby that comes after not just flush it away.
> Abortion for gender is disgusting  I dont believe in abortion for any reason other than if the mothers life is in danger or rape, in which case i think that the police should have to be informed and the rape investigated, not just the mother crying rape.
> if women dont want a baby...... well dont have sex or use a condom and another form of protection to fall back on. Or shock horror there is this thing called morning after pill.
> 
> ...


But I don't want children, ever so does that mean I should never have sex in case my contraception did fail? If it did fail then maybe I wouldn't know until I was pregnant, should I then be 'forced' to carry on with the pregnancy? What sort of effect would that have on someone who did not want to be pregnant? I can honestly say that the though of being pregnant fills me with dread & I could not cope with being forced to carry a baby that I did not want.

I agree that contraception is avainlable for everyone in this country & people should take repsonsibility but mistakes do happen & not everyone wants to become a mother.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> But I don't want children, ever so does that mean I should never have sex in case my contraception did fail? If it did fail then maybe I wouldn't know until I was pregnant, should I then be 'forced' to carry on with the pregnancy? What sort of effect would that have on someone who did not want to be pregnant? I can honestly say that the though of being pregnant fills me with dread & I could not cope with being forced to carry a baby that I did not want.
> 
> I agree that contraception is avainlable for everyone in this country & people should take repsonsibility but mistakes do happen & not everyone wants to become a mother.


Well you could double up on contraception..pill/condoms/injection etc and if you really feel that strongly about pregnancy then you should have your tubes tied..i mean is that not what we do to our animals to prevent unwanted pregnancy so we wouldnt have to abort/kill their offspring?
Its pretty black and white really if you feel so strongly agianst pregnancy.


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## CKD1 (Dec 16, 2011)

I never even knew that you had to give a reason to have an abortion. In my naive little bubble I live in I just assumed that no woman would make the decision to have an abortion lightly, I'm shocked to read that there are people who do. Will these people who use abortion so frivoursly even make good parents? It's quite disturbing actually!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Will these people who use abortion so frivoursly even make good parents? It's quite disturbing actually!


Sadly, I suspect a lot of them would make excellent parents if they put their own selfish needs to one side and considered others first. Unfortunately, it seems to me to be yet another symptom of our current 'me, me, me, - I want, I will have, I can choose what I want, when I want society'.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Well you could double up on contraception..pill/condoms/injection etc and if you really feel that strongly about pregnancy then you should have your tubes tied..i mean is that not what we do to our animals to prevent unwanted pregnancy so we wouldnt have to abort/kill their offspring?
> Its pretty black and white really if you feel so strongly agianst pregnancy.


I have asked about sterilization but can't get this on the NHS as I haven't had children & can't afford it privately.

Tbh I have always been careful & never even had a scare but I know others who have.

I am pro choice though & much as others may not agree I am happy that I do have the option of abortion available to me should my best efforts (not to get pregnant) not be enough


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I have asked about sterilization but can't get this on the NHS as I haven't had children & can't afford it privately.
> 
> Tbh I have always been careful & never even had a scare but I know others who have.
> 
> I am pro choice though & much as others may not agree I am happy that I do have the option of abortion available to me should my best efforts (not to get pregnant) not be enough


But surely thats not the way to look at it. The NHS would do it for you if you kept on at them and were refered for counciling, just as they would do it for a male who hadnt had children.
I think its sad when people think that abortion is available 'just in case'. It should ONLY be there if there was a risk to mothers health..or in really extream circumstances.


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

I saw this thread title and quite honestly while I'm certainly up for a debate on lots of things I feel that this can be such an emotional subject for many people...whether they are pro-choice or pro-life.

Of course I have my own views on this too but I'm choosing not to share them because I'm sure that probably the majority of people involved in this thread (myself included) have some personal experience of either termination, miscarriage, stillbirth or infertility (possibly even experience of more than one of them) and while everyones circumstances are different we all will have such strong feelings about it, this is a subject that I think no matter how much people try to put forward their beliefs and reasons behind it....you will never change another person's view, especially when they may have personally experienced the exact thing you might be against, it will probably only result in some upset caused.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> But I don't want children, ever so does that mean I should never have sex in case my contraception did failIf it did fail then maybe I wouldn't know until I was pregnant, should I then be 'forced' to carry on with the pregnancy? What sort of effect would that have on someone who did not want to be pregnant? I can honestly say that the though of being pregnant fills me with dread & I could not cope with being forced to carry a baby that I did not want.
> 
> I agree that contraception is avainlable for everyone in this country & people should take repsonsibility but mistakes do happen & not everyone wants to become a mother.


to answer your questions simply and this is what i feel, i dont want to cause offence
yes i think you shouldnt have sex, have your tubes tide or partner have the snip. Yes i think you should have to carry on with the pregnancy, your suffering for 9 months is a good trade off for a healthy living baby that can go to a loving couple. you wouldnt be asked to be a mother merely ...if you like a surrogate.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

LisaZonda said:


> I saw this thread title and quite honestly while I'm certainly up for a debate on lots of things I feel that this can be such an emotional subject for many people...whether they are pro-choice or pro-life.
> 
> Of course I have my own views on this too but I'm choosing not to share them because I'm sure that probably the majority of people involved in this thread (myself included) have some personal experience of either termination, miscarriage, stillbirth or infertility (possibly even experience of more than one of them) and while everyones circumstances are different we all will have such strong feelings about it, this is a subject that I think no matter how much people try to put forward their beliefs and reasons behind it....you will never change another person's view, especially when they may have personally experienced the exact thing you might be against, it will probably only result in some upset caused.


the thread is titled abortions so surely if someone doesnt want to read what peoples opinions are then they dont have to click on it.


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## Snippet (Apr 14, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Well you could double up on contraception..pill/condoms/injection etc and if you really feel that strongly about pregnancy then you should have your tubes tied..i mean is that not what we do to our animals to prevent unwanted pregnancy so we wouldnt have to abort/kill their offspring?
> Its pretty black and white really if you feel so strongly agianst pregnancy.


What about those of us who can't have children at this time for some reason. I'm 20 and I've got a reliable form of contraception, but what if it failed? I don't want children at the moment because IMO I am too young and I wouldn't make a very good parent, but I want the chance to have them when I get a bit older. I don't want to abstain from sex for the simple reason I enjoy it. Is it so wrong that I would consider an abortion if I was to fall pregnant?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm not going to say what I feel about the 'issues' here because its not something I have ever faced or will ever face although I have had a medical abortion, as the baby had died without miscarrying and that was traumatic enough.
I will say though that it is such a shame that the tools that were created to make pregnancy possible and safer (scans and blood tests) are now being used to end them.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

Snippet said:


> What about those of us who can't have children at this time for some reason. I'm 20 and I've got a reliable form of contraception, but what if it failed? I don't want children at the moment because IMO I am too young and I wouldn't make a very good parent, but I want the chance to have them when I get a bit older. I don't want to abstain from sex for the simple reason I enjoy it. Is it so wrong that I would consider an abortion if I was to fall pregnant?


i was 15 when i had my daughter and have done well for myself and have brought up a lovely little girl. 20 isnt too young, if your old enough for sex your old enough to be a mother..... or give baby up for adoption. also no onw knows what kind of parent they will be until they are one


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Snippet said:


> What about those of us who can't have children at this time for some reason. I'm 20 and I've got a reliable form of contraception, but what if it failed? I don't want children at the moment because IMO I am too young and I wouldn't make a very good parent, but I want the chance to have them when I get a bit older. I don't want to abstain from sex for the simple reason I enjoy it. Is it so wrong that I would consider an abortion if I was to fall pregnant?


I do think its wrong to end a childs life because its an inconvenience..as you will come to realise life doesnt always go to plan and there are major inconveniences along the way that can be worked through. 
But thats just my opinion..i would NEVER consider taking my childs life away because it would interfere with a uni course or job opportunity or whatever other reason.i would just take responsibility for my actions..are we not taught from an early age that actions have consiquences?


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

Marley boy said:


> the thread is titled abortions so surely if someone doesnt want to read what peoples opinions are then they dont have to click on it.


Yes of course if someone doesn't want to read it then simply don't click on it, I don't have an issue reading the thread...because I'm here doing it 

I just mean that while you will have people here from both sides of a discussion, having experienced things personally...I don't believe opinions and beliefs can be changed on such a highly emotional subject.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I have asked about sterilization but can't get this on the NHS as I haven't had children & can't afford it privately.
> 
> Tbh I have always been careful & never even had a scare but I know others who have.
> 
> I am pro choice though & much as others may not agree I am happy that I do have the option of abortion available to me should my best efforts (not to get pregnant) not be enough


I 100% agree with LizaZonda's post so the only comment I will make is re sterilization.

A work colleagues daughter was adament after having one child she did not want any more but was refused sterilization because they said she was too young. She then suffered a miscarriage and did get them to agree to sterilize. Unfortunately it did not work and she fell pregnant again so it does not always work


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

LisaZonda said:


> Yes of course if someone doesn't want to read it then simply don't click on it, I don't have an issue reading the thread...because I'm here doing it
> 
> I just mean that while you will have people here from both sides of a discussion, having experienced things personally...I don't believe opinions and beliefs can be changed on such a highly emotional subject.


oh no i agree peoples opinions wont change everyone has different moral values after all. But if someone is going to take offence to peoples veiws then they dont need to read through the thread


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

there could be a thousand and one reasons why an abortion is the right thing for someone , i don`t agree with aborting due to a babies sex and i don`t agree with using it as a contraceptive , this shouldn`t even be entertained. but to tell people to stop having sex is ridiculous , does this mean i should discourage my own daughter who has downs not to have any kind of relationship with a man , or be in a relationship where she could possibly one day enjoy sex with a partner ? i know it`s a taboo subject , but i think it`s completely ridiculous to tell people not to have sex , it`s what most people do when they find themselves in loving relationships.
i can educate her until the cows come home on contraception , though its not to say one day a pregnancy isn`t going to happen , medically she`s healthy to carry a baby , but not mentally at any time in her life although clever , she does not think like you or i so does this mean she should not ever have sex , or not be able to get an abortion if she ever needed one ?
but what you`re all saying on the other hand IS if i had chosen to abort her , i`d have had perfectly justified reasons for doing so ..do you know how that sounds ?


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## Snippet (Apr 14, 2011)

Marley boy said:


> i was 15 when i had my daughter and have done well for myself and have brought up a lovely little girl. 20 isnt too young, if your old enough for sex your old enough to be a mother..... or give baby up for adoption. also no onw knows what kind of parent they will be until they are one


I wasn't saying that everyone is too young at 20, I was just saying I feel I am. I know more then one person who is younger than I am and they are fantastic parents. I feel I don't have the maturity or the resources (such as money) to bring a child into this world at this time. Who knows what will happen in a few years though.

As for adoption, I don't know how it works as I have no experience of it, but I couldn't have a baby and leave it in a children's home until it finds parents. Again, this could be inaccurate as I don't know if parents are found before the birth.

Sorry if that was a bit ramble-y.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

diablo said:


> there could be a thousand and one reasons why an abortion is the right thing for someone , i don`t agree with aborting due to a babies sex and i don`t agree with using it as a contraceptive , this shouldn`t even be entertained. but to tell people to stop having sex is ridiculous , does this mean i should discourage my own daughter who has downs not to have any kind of relationship with a man , or be in a relationship where she could possibly one day enjoy sex with a partner ? i know it`s a taboo subject , but i think it`s completely ridiculous to tell people not to have sex , it`s what most people do when they find themselves in *loving relationships*.
> i can educate her until the cows come home on contraception , though its not to say one day a pregnancy isn`t going to happen , medically she`s healthy to carry a baby , but not mentally at any time in her life although clever , she does not think like you or i so does this mean she should not ever have sex , or not be able to get an abortion if she ever needed one ?
> but what you`re all saying on the other hand IS if i had chosen to abort her , i`d have been perfectly justified reasons for doing so ..do you know how that sounds ?


perfect setting to bring up a baby in then 

sex is primarily for creating life it just so happens that it fels pretty amazing, if having a baby would 100% ruin a womans life then she shouldt have the sex or like i have said before use a condom and the implant/ injections/ pill chances of both failing at the same times are....... well there isnt even a statistic.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I am pro choice though & much as others may not agree I am happy that I do have the option of abortion available to me should my best efforts (not to get pregnant) not be enough


Legally though, you don't have that option. Not wanting to be pregnant is not a legal reason for an abortion in this country. Wanting an abortion just because you don't want to be pregnant is as illegal as wanting an abortion because your baby is a girl and you wanted a boy.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

Marley boy said:


> perfect setting to bring up a baby in then
> 
> sex is primarily for creating life it just so happens that it fels pretty amazing, if having a baby would 100% ruin a womans life then she shouldt have the sex or like i have said before use a condom and the implant/ injections/ pill chances of both failing at the same times are....... well there isnt even a statistic.


but as explained some people with disabilities don`t think like you or i so does that mean those people shouldn`t be having sex because of the risk of pregnancy ?


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

Snippet said:


> I wasn't saying that everyone is too young at 20, I was just saying I feel I am. I know more then one person who is younger than I am and they are fantastic parents. I feel I don't have the maturity or the resources (such as money) to bring a child into this world at this time. Who knows what will happen in a few years though.
> 
> As for adoption, I don't know how it works as I have no experience of it, but I couldn't have a baby and leave it in a children's home until it finds parents. Again, this could be inaccurate as I don't know if parents are found before the birth.
> 
> Sorry if that was a bit ramble-y.


there is a high demarnd for babies so it is very unlikely for a baby to be left in a home. More than likely you would have a set of parents waiting for you to give birth


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

Marley boy said:


> there is a high demarnd for babies so it is very unlikely for a baby to be left in a home. More than likely you would have a set of parents waiting for you to give birth


yes , high demand for babies , never mind the poor souls that have passed they`re sell by date waiting in care homes , who of course were all babies once upon a time and more than likely a whole load of red tape to cut through. i have an adopted nephew , by the time he were legally adopted he were 18 months old so it isn`t always something that happens straight away


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

diablo said:


> but as explained some people with disabilities don`t think like you or i so does that mean those people shouldn`t be having sex because of the risk of pregnancy ?


ermm im really sorry and no offence but ....... yes. If that persons dissability means they are affected mentally and wouldnt be capable of looking after a baby then, and it may sound harsh, but the NHS should pay for them to be sterilized.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

diablo said:


> but what you`re all saying on the other hand IS if i had chosen to abort her , i`d have had perfectly justified reasons for doing so ..do you know how that sounds ?


I've not said anything of the sort - in fact, if I had to comment on the subject I'd be saying the exact opposite - and if anything I've written has made you think that I would advocate that you would have been justified in having an abortion, then I apologise unreservedly.

My sister had an amniocentesis test when she was carrying Emma and was told that there was a high probability that Emma would have Downs Syndrome. Our mother actually told her to abort - I won't put on here the words she used because they certainly would cause offence. My sister and I had millions of conversations about it, and after much heart searching, and promises of life-time help from me and my OH, she decided to go ahead with the pregnancy. Fortunately, it turned out that Emma did not have Downs Syndrome - but she would have been loved and cherished just as much by us all if she had. (with the possible exception of my mother, that is!)


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

I also find it interesting to see that some of you abhor abortion but are ok with the idea of somebody taking the morning after pill despite the fact that by taking the morning after pill they are having an abortion, albeit a very early one...


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Set_Nights said:


> I also find it interesting to see that some of you abhor abortion but are ok with the idea of somebody taking the morning after pill despite the fact that by taking the morning after pill they are having an abortion, albeit a very early one...


Actually the morning after pill can be quick enough to actually stop the sperm meeting the egg..IF it doesnt then there is no heart beat in the cells although they may only just have started to multiply they are only as 'alive' as a skin cell...at around 5 weeks the cell that becomes the heart spontaniously starts to beat ..this to me is when they become a baby.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

Marley boy said:


> ermm im really sorry and no offence but ....... yes. If that persons dissability means they are affected mentally and wouldnt be capable of looking after a baby then, and it may sound harsh, but the NHS should pay for them to be sterilized.


but you`re completely going against that persons human rights.

so then you could say women over a certain age shouldn`t be having sex because of increased medical abnormalities which could show up in pregnancies.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

diablo said:


> but you`re completely going against that persons human rights.
> 
> so then you could say women over a certain age shouldn`t be having sex because of increased medical abnormalities which could show up in pregnancies.


human rights for what? to be able to create life then flush it away? or prevent a pregnancy in a person who mentally and emotionaly doesnt have the resources to look after a child.

and no im not saying older women shouldnt have sex but to accept any baby that comes along abnormalities or not.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't have any ethical issues with abortions which are performed early in pregnancy. There are seven billion mouths to feed on this planet and many malnourished and starving humans. We don't need anymore unwanted children in the world. Having said that, aborting a pregnancy because of sex could possibly have negative impacts on future generations such as more men than women or vice versa. Many people could be without an OH if carried to the extreme.


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Actually the morning after pill can be quick enough to actually stop the sperm meeting the egg..IF it doesnt then there is no heart beat in the cells although they may only just have started to multiply they are only as 'alive' as a skin cell...at around 5 weeks the cell that becomes the heart spontaniously starts to beat ..this to me is when they become a baby.


If taken in the first 24hr it is likely to prevent conception yes, but if you leave it closer to the 72hr limit then it is not that unusual for conception to have occurred and for the pregnancy to be terminated. There are some who would argue that even the contraceptive pill can in rare instances cause this type of abortion.

By your definition is it morally ok then for someone to get an abortion up to 5 weeks into the pregnancy (which is roughly when I believe the heart starts beating) without needing a reason? And if not then surely it is just as morally wrong for someone to take the morning after pill (or even the pill in some people's opinions) without a medical reason?


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

Marley boy said:


> human rights for what? to be able to create life then flush it away? or prevent a pregnancy in a person who mentally and emotionaly doesnt have the resources to look after a child.
> 
> and no im not saying older women shouldnt have sex but to accept any baby that comes along abnormalities or not.


disabled people do have human rights believe it or not a case was argued a while back on whether a forced sterilization of a disabled woman should go ahead think they ruled in her favour , but can`t for the life of me find that ruling


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

not read through all these pages yet but to the op

if this is what i seen on the news and on yahoo then it is absoloutly disgusting! its this whole designer baby thing, I know most people will secretly have a preference but basically killing a perfectly healthy baby because of its gender well wow thats all I can say what is this world coming to? theres millions of people out there desperate for a baby who cant then theres people who take it for granted, its all terribly sad.

I am very anti abortion I dont agree with it unless in extreme cases such as mother was raped or baby will be born so handicap that it would not be able to have any quality of life other than that I think take responsibility for your choices and people are not so stupid they dont know there is a 50/50 chance of getting either a boy or girl and that not getting your prefered choice is not a valid reason.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Set_Nights said:


> If taken in the first 24hr it is likely to prevent conception yes, but if you leave it closer to the 72hr limit then it is not that unusual for conception to have occurred and for the pregnancy to be terminated. There are some who would argue that even the contraceptive pill can in rare instances cause this type of abortion.
> 
> By your definition is it morally ok then for someone to get an abortion up to 5 weeks into the pregnancy (which is roughly when I believe the heart starts beating) without needing a reason? And if not then surely it is just as morally wrong for someone to take the morning after pill (or even the pill in some people's opinions) without a medical reason?


I personally think the morning after pill is far more acceptable then going for an abortion because it happens within days/ hours ..like i have said i do not agree with abortion unless for extrem reasons so an abortion at any stage would be morally wrong for me.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

diablo said:


> disabled people do have human rights believe it or not a case was argued a while back on whether a forced sterilization of a disabled woman should go ahead think they ruled in her favour , but can`t for the life of me find that ruling


im not saying dissabled people dont have human rights at all far from it. But why if like you said, they dont think like you or I is it acceptable for them to have an abortions because they arnt able to grasp the concept of doubling up on contraception. If its her right to have a baby then why abort? If a person that is dissabled wants chilren then thats fine. What im trying to say is that it doesnt matter if a person is dissabled, abortion unless it would harm the mother shouldnt be used. If the dissabled person is capable of deciding to abort a baby because of her disabilities then she should also be able to make the decision to permantly ensure she wont have a baby.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Legally though, you don't have that option. Not wanting to be pregnant is not a legal reason for an abortion in this country. Wanting an abortion just because you don't want to be pregnant is as illegal as wanting an abortion because your baby is a girl and you wanted a boy.


I would legally have the right for an abortion as continuing with an unwanted pregnancy would be detrimental to my mental health. There is no way I would ever want a child & the thought of being forced to continue with a pregnancy I did not want would simply not be an option for me.

It also depends on when a persons definition of life begins; is it imediately after conception, when the heart has formed & starts to beat? when the foetus is capable of life outside the mother?


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

I think people who want an abortion should be made to watch a video of the actual operation , ive seen one and it made me physically sick

Im going to put the following paragraph in white , its what an abortion really is ... people are throwing the word around , but how many know what it really involves

Its not as clean cut as many think it is ... the poor baby is literally torn into pieces inside the womb and the body parts scraped out , in many cases a piece of the baby may be left inside resulting in an infection and the need for a further operation 

Maybe seeing what really happens would make those women stop and think about what they were really asking for 
Until I saw the video I was pro-choice ... afterwards I wasnt


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

Marley boy said:


> im not saying dissabled people dont have human rights at all far from it. But why if like you said, they dont think like you or I is it acceptable for them to have an abortions because they arnt able to grasp the concept of doubling up on contraception. If its her right to have a baby then why abort? If a person that is dissabled wants chilren then thats fine. What im trying to say is that it doesnt matter if a person is dissabled, abortion unless it would harm the mother shouldnt be used. If the dissabled person is capable of deciding to abort a baby because of her disabilities then she should also be able to make the decision to permantly ensure she wont have a baby.


but what about disabled people who carry genetic disorders , does that mean they should carry on with those pregnancies too ? or should they not be engaging in sex ?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Mese said:


> I think people who want an abortion should be made to watch a video of the actual operation , ive seen one and it made me physically sick
> 
> Im going to put the following paragraph in white , its what an abortion really is ... people are throwing the word around , but how many know what it really involves
> 
> ...


It depends on what type you have seen. I have seen videos & pics from abortions carried out at between 4 -32 wks.

The ones you have seen must be later stages & are disturbing there is no getting away from that but most abortions are carried out prior to (I think) 13wks. The later ones are usually carried out due to severe physical handicaps which must be incredibly distressing.

Despite seeing these I am still pro choice as I think there are lots of factors to consider


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

diablo said:


> but what about disabled people who carry genetic disorders , does that mean they should carry on with those pregnancies too ? or should they not be engaging in sex ?


you dont seem to be getting it  if they know they have genetic disorders then they should be sterilized rather than having abortions or if they dont like that idea then dont have sex  why would they think its a better option to have an abortion?


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

Marley boy said:


> you dont seem to be getting it  if they know they have genetic disorders then they should be sterilized rather than having abortions or if they dont like that idea then dont have sex  why would they think its a better option to have an abortion?


but you`re completely missing the point. you can`t force something like sterilization onto someone as the case would more than likely end up in the court of human rights , where a judge would more than likely make the ruling , you can`t do that :nono: just as you can`t tell someone to carry a baby just because you happen to think it`s the right thing to do. obviously i have a child with downs so my own feelings should be completely apparent!!
but what might work for one person , don`t work for the next , not everyone wants a disabled baby , not every one wants a baby and not everyone has those maternal instincts so you have to think what`s best for those children in the longrun without you`re own personal feelings getting in the way the way of that.
no i don`t agree with abortions being carried out due to the gender of a baby , nor do i agree with them being used as a form of contraception , but theres so many other reasons WHY they should be available to women that need them.
case of P her mother eventually withdrew her application to the courts maybe because she knew she wasn`t going to win.

Press Association


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think this is a highly emotive subject and many people have differing opinions .....and that is the key its down to personal choice......

As I have said previously im pro choice - I had an abortion when I was younger - I had only been in the relationship a few months and even though I used contraception it didnt work .....I just was not ready for a baby at that time - financially or emotionally it was a decision I did not take lightly - but after the termination I KNEW it was the right decision ......fast forward many years and here I am now in a different relationship desperate to have a child of my own but my partner has been diagonsed with Klinefelter Syndrome which means he has no sperm .....do I feel regret for what I did all those years ago ?? no I dont because at that time I was not ready......I was too young - having a baby imo is one of the greatest gifts and I see many women take that gift for granted in so many ways smoking, drinking, taking drugs, and then even after having the baby not every mother gives the love, support and guidance that a child needs - the easy part is getting pregnant and then giving birth - (in most cases) the hard part is bringing the child up and not ALL mothers are great at that! - I think if a girl or woman knows at a stage in life that she gets pregnant that she knows the child may not benefit then terminatin is acceptable ....that said I dont think multiple terminations is right and I certainly dont think termination based on Gender is acceptable either, now people may say adoption is better than terminatin but is it ?? do you know for sure that the child you give up for adoption goes to a happy home - and what of the consequences of that child being told he/she was put up for adoption because natural mother did not want? there are imo many ramifications to that process that does not ASSURE that the child has a golden life ......as with most things in life there are pro's and cons - but I for one never judge a persons decision....


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I would legally have the right for an abortion as continuing with an unwanted pregnancy would be detrimental to my mental health. There is no way I would ever want a child & the thought of being forced to continue with a pregnancy I did not want would simply not be an option for me.
> 
> It also depends on when a persons definition of life begins; is it imediately after conception, when the heart has formed & starts to beat? when the foetus is capable of life outside the mother?


I think the definition you should be concerned about is the definition of what is detrimental to your mental health. I work with the mentally ill, and there is a vast difference between a true mental illness and a spoilt woman throwing a hissy fit because she is pregnant and doesn't want to be. Oh, I've no doubt that "detrimental to mental health and wellbeing" is put as the reason for many abortions, and may actually be true in some cases - but I daresay that in the vast majority of cases it's just an excuse. For most women "detrimental to my mental health" means "I would get upset because I would have to look after a baby instead of doing what I want to do."

But for the record, for me life begins at conception. Anything taken after conception to end a pregnancy (including the morning after pill) is an abortion.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

There are too many grey areas surrounding this subject, and i am far from fully educated on the matter. But as for choosing what sex your child should be, is vile and i feel quite sick at the thought. 
When i got with my husband, we wanted to have a child together, so started trying. We are very lucky, as we got pregnant rather quick. Now heres my point - I already had a child from a previous relationship, lovely young man that he is now  and my husband has 1 daughter and 3 sons. So together we had 4 boys. We would have loved to have a little girl together but it wasn't meant to be, our child is a hyper little six year old boy. And i couldn't be happier! I found out what we were having, and it didn't make the slightest difference that we weren't having a girl! I love them all dearly and wouldn't change them for the world.
After having my youngest, we knew we didn't want any more ( 6 kids is more than enough ) and i got sterilised. I certainly didn't want to keep going till I could produce a girl, I am extremely blessed to have had two healthy boys and healthy step children. But could never put myself through an abortion just because its "not the one I wanted". I created a life, regardless of what sex they are. 
Separate note: Hugs to all that miscarried, stillbirths and cant either carry or conceive. My heart truly goes out to you. My lovely sister cant have children, even though she would have been amazing. So I can sympathise


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I think the definition you should be concerned about is the definition of what is detrimental to your mental health. I work with the mentally ill, and there is a vast difference between a true mental illness and a spoilt woman throwing a hissy fit because she is pregnant and doesn't want to be. Oh, I've no doubt that "detrimental to mental health and wellbeing" is put as the reason for many abortions, and may actually be true in some cases - but I daresay that in the vast majority of cases it's just an excuse. For most women "detrimental to my mental health" means "I would get upset because I would have to look after a baby instead of doing what I want to do."
> 
> But for the record, for me life begins at conception. Anything taken after conception to end a pregnancy (including the morning after pill) is an abortion.


Sorry but I think you are wrong in your assumptions. I (& probably many other women) would not cope with being pregnant. If an abortion was not an option then I would find my own way of terminating the pregnancy myself despite any risks to my own health.

For most women it is a very difficult decision & not one most take lightly


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I would legally have the right for an abortion as continuing with an unwanted pregnancy would be detrimental to my mental health.


Detrimental to your mental health simply because you don't want it and don't think you'll be able to cope?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Detrimental to your mental health simply because you don't want it and don't think you'll be able to cope?


Yes, that is a legal reason why a termination could be performed - why the eek? As I said previously I take preccautions have never had a scare but if my contraception were to fail I would have an abortion.

Being forced to continue a pregnancy I did not want would not just be about 'not wanting a baby'or finding it 'incovenient'


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Detrimental to your mental health simply because you don't want it and don't think you'll be able to cope?


But are the mothers feelings not to be taken into consideration? after all the mothers wellbeing mentally and physically is of detrimental importance for the child to thrive and grow up ......many young girls are NOT mentally ready imo to have babies - many are babies themselves and do not have the life skills to pass on to their kids .....


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> But are the mothers feelings not to be taken into consideration? after all the mothers wellbeing mentally and physically is of detrimental importance for the child to thrive and grow up ......many young girls are NOT mentally ready imo to have babies - many are babies themselves and do not have the life skills to pass on to their kids .....


These young girls who are not mentally ready to have babies and the ones who are only babies themselves ...should not be having sex! Obviously they are not emotionally ready for sex if they are not mentally or emotionally ready for the consequences that comes with having sex.

These babies that are out with their knickers round their ankles need to be taught some self respect.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Just passing by but wanted to add that as someone who has worked in paediatric care and seen what can happen to children born to a mother who may not be mentally ready or stable, I have to agree with abortion for these conditions.

I am not saying that every mother who is mentally unstable would harm their child but I have seen a few who have. Mothers have to have the choice because without it is the child who may suffer. No one should be forced to carry on with a pregnancy these day although I do not agree with people (often young) who use abortion as a form of contraception. A young lady a couple of years ago having her sixth abortion  on a ward that I no longer felt I could work on. Not the hospitals fault but goodness how hard is it to not get pregnant?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> These young girls who are not mentally ready to have babies and the ones who are only babies themselves ...should not be having sex! Obviously they are not emotionally ready for sex if they are not mentally or emotionally ready for the consequences that comes with having sex.
> 
> These babies that are out with their knickers round their ankles need to be taught some self respect.


And that self respect needs to come from the parents that raised them ?? some mothers think its perfectly acceptable for their 15yr old daughter to go out and get pregnant because thats what they did!!

we cannot always just assume that they are slappers walking round with their knickers round their ankles some may have underlying issues their dealing with like unhappy backgrounds or issues with low self asteem, peer pressure etc - its about education and schools also need to play a better role in educating kids ......especially girls - the facts are teenagers are having sex weather we agree with it or not so they need to be taught to be safe and take precautions ....


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

diablo said:


> but you`re completely missing the point. you can`t force something like sterilization onto someone as the case would more than likely end up in the court of human rights , where a judge would more than likely make the ruling , you can`t do that :nono: just as you can`t tell someone to carry a baby just because you happen to think it`s the right thing to do. obviously i have a child with downs so my own feelings should be completely apparent!!
> but what might work for one person , don`t work for the next , not everyone wants a disabled baby , not every one wants a baby and not everyone has those maternal instincts so you have to think what`s best for those children in the longrun without you`re own personal feelings getting in the way the way of that.
> no i don`t agree with abortions being carried out due to the gender of a baby , nor do i agree with them being used as a form of contraception , but theres so many other reasons WHY they should be available to women that need them.
> case of P her mother eventually withdrew her application to the courts maybe because she knew she wasn`t going to win.
> ...


no i dont think any one should force anything..... the disabled person if they are mentally stable enough to participate in sex should make the desicion themselves to make sure they never get pregnant insted of having an abortion if they do. Not everybody wants a dissabled baby your right, but if that is the case why not be sterilized if you know you have a genetic condition?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Marley boy said:


> no i dont think any one should force anything..... the disabled person if they are mentally stable enough to participate in sex should make the desicion themselves to make sure they never get pregnant insted of having an abortion if they do. Not everybody wants a dissabled baby your right, but if that is the case why not be sterilized if you know you have a genetic condition?


So all people are mentally stable when participating in sex??? Not always the case ....what about those who are drunk? what about those who are forced into sex? and I dont just mean rape some married women have to endure sex with a partner when they dont want to .....what about the young girl who is put under pressure by her older boyfriend to have sex?? these are all cases of not being mentally stable when it comes to sex ......which is why it causes so many problems including pregnancy


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marley boy said:


> no i dont think any one should force anything..... the disabled person* if they are mentally stable enough to participate in sex should make the desicion themselves to make sure they never get pregnant *insted of having an abortion if they do. Not everybody wants a dissabled baby your right, but if that is the case why not be sterilized if you know you have a genetic condition?


Sorry but you are being incredibly naive in thinking this when there is a huge array of mental illnesses, conditions, etc that may make it impossible for the person to fully understand the implications involved in participating in sexual encounters & raising a baby or even being pregnant.

There are so many conditions that affect people yet having sex is something everyone (regardless of their mental state or disabilty) enjoys. I agree that precautions should be taken to prevent pregnancies should be taken but this doesn't always happen.

If you are talking about forced steralization then that is a completley different topic 

After watching the series of programmes regarding social workers & the conditions that some children endure (or wopuld potentially endure) then I would be in complete support for some people to be encouraged to use long term contraception


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry but you are being incredibly naive in thinking this when there is a huge array of mental illnesses, conditions, etc that may make it impossible for the person to fully understand the implications involved in participating in sexual encounters & raising a baby or even being pregnant.
> 
> There are so many conditions that affect people yet having sex is something everyone (regardless of their mental state or disabilty) enjoys. I agree that precautions should be taken to prevent pregnancies should be taken but this doesn't always happen.
> 
> ...


iv never ever suggested forced steralization  im sorry but is someone who like you said not fully able to understand the implications involved in participating in sexual encounters & raising a baby or even being pregnant, able to understand and give consent for an abortion? surely killing an unborn baby would be more detrimental to their health than never getting pregnant in the first place.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

Marley boy said:


> iv never ever suggested forced steralization  im sorry but is someone who like you said not fully able to understand the implications involved in participating in sexual encounters & raising a baby or even being pregnant, able to understand and give consent for an abortion? surely killing an unborn baby would be more detrimental to their health than never getting pregnant in the first place.


scenario for you. [this is real life , not something made up] only a few know the circumstances here.
woman gets pregnant , planned pregnancy , everything appears normal , nothing shows on scans or any other means of routine testing fast forward 20 months after birth , baby is now dying from medical condition , mum , dad and immediate family all there to watch that baby suffering , had something shown up in the tests / scans what do you honestly think would be the kindest thing to do had someone had the choice and all facts to hand ?

i can honestly tell you which is worse.


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## ginge2804 (Nov 5, 2011)

I saw this on the news, and i think its disgusting!!
As someone who has also had a miscarriage, this makes me feel physically sick!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Being 55 ish I can say I enjoy a fullfilled sex life and its not to create life....


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

harley bear said:


> These young girls who are not mentally ready to have babies and the ones who are only babies themselves ...should not be having sex! Obviously they are not emotionally ready for sex if they are not mentally or emotionally ready for the consequences that can come with having sex.
> 
> These babies that are out with their knickers round their ankles need to be taught some self respect.


I completely agree that these young girls should not be having sex and of course in an ideal world they wouldn't do it until they are mentally and emotionally ready for the consequences that comes with it...BUT we don't live in an ideal world!

As hard as every parent in the world tries to make sure their teenager doesn't make this mistake....it still happens, the answer to this problem isn't just make them all continue with the pregnancy and get on with it, even though they are not ready...can you imagine the effects this would have on some of the mothers and therefore their babies?!

I do have issues with how far on a person can be yet still opt for an abortion and I feel that pregnancies are allowed to progress too far, plus I certainly don't agree that having an abortion because someone is carrying the gender they don't want, or that using termination as a form of contraception is at all acceptable, However...I certainly do believe in having the right to terminate for many, many other reasons.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> As for adoption - surely it's better to be adopted than to never even have a chance at life?


I see many kids in care. Many of them teenagers whose parents can't be assed.

Many of them have problems with self harm, depression, alcohol, drugs, no respect for themselves and open to abuse.

I wonder what these people would say if you put this to them...

An un wanted child is an unhappy person..

Surely quality of life is more important that the right to life.

I would rather not have been born than to go through life with no family..

In an ideal world children would be adopted and live happily ever after.

The reality is, this is not often the case..


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

The article is disgusting. 

But for me personally it's my body and I will do what I like.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I am, from an era where children born out of wedlock were stimatised, I am such a child, my mother couldn't keep me because she wasn't married to my father. I will never have the chance to know either, but to see people throwing away the lives of children makes my blood boil tbh. Thirty odd years ago there were excuses, now, there are none, contraception is easily available, and if you choose to have sex, you make that choice to know you could become pregnant, and deal with the consequences. 

If you are not mentally well enough to deal with the consequences of sex, perhaps it's something that you should reconsider. I apologise if that sounds harsh to anyone.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am, from an era where children born out of wedlock were stimatised, I am such a child, my mother couldn't keep me because she wasn't married to my father. I will never have the chance to know either, but to see people throwing away the lives of children makes my blood boil tbh. Thirty odd years ago there were excuses, now, there are none, contraception is easily available, and if you choose to have sex, you make that choice to know you could become pregnant, and deal with the consequences.
> 
> If you are not mentally well enough to deal with the consequences of sex, perhaps it's something that you should reconsider. I apologise if that sounds harsh to anyone.


People should be more careful. More importantly with regards to STD's. But people make mistakes, and they will keep on doing so.

We live in a world where people are not responsible. Whether that be with dog ownership or having sex.

If every person who got pregnant had to keep it, then we would be inundated with kids in care. And our taxes would dramatically increase!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I see many kids in care. Many of them teenagers whose parents can't be assed.
> 
> Many of them have problems with self harm, depression, alcohol, drugs, no respect for themselves and open to abuse.
> 
> ...





Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am, from an era where children born out of wedlock were stimatised, I am such a child, my mother couldn't keep me because she wasn't married to my father. I will never have the chance to know either, but to see people throwing away the lives of children makes my blood boil tbh. Thirty odd years ago there were excuses, now, there are none, contraception is easily available, and if you choose to have sex, you make that choice to know you could become pregnant, and deal with the consequences.
> .


I think SL has answered your question far more eloquently than I could. I could be wrong, but I doubt very much that SL would prefer not to be alive rather than to have been adopted.

SL - I hope you don't mind my presuming like this. Please let me know if this post upsets you and I will remove it.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> (((((hugs)))))
> 
> I think that people who have never gone through this sort of thing - ie people who have children - don't realise the emotional pain that miscarriages or stillbirths can cause.
> 
> Even hospitals don't realise. When I miscarried, I was put in a ward with three other women, all of whom had had terminations on the same day I miscarried. It was dreadful laying there, listening to them laugh and talk about how glad they were to be rid of their inconveniences, while I was falling to pieces inside because I had just lost the child we had been trying to conceive for over 10 years.


I think you are right there, ive never had a misscarriage but a year ago my sons partner did it was upsetting for us all but what they went through does bear thinking about as you know with your own experience.
when they were first expecting that baby i ask my son what he would prefer and he said a healthy baby but if i could choose i would like a boy, sadly that pregnancy ended, when they were expecting again, he was asked the same thing this time his answer was "a baby" the gender never came into it and he couldnt have cared less because they had known the heartache of losing one and the fact that maybe they would never have one did cross their mind. Their baby was born 3 weeks ago tomorrow and its a girl and they they are totally besotted and feel extremely lucky.

I feel so much for all you who cant have children and can fully understand the anger and frustration you must feel on topics like this and with the flipant,shallow people that throw away a childs life because they happen to be the wrong gender or they have come around at the "wrong time", ime not against abortions but i can fully understand childless couples been against them.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> If every person who got pregnant had to keep it, then we would be inundated with kids in care. And our taxes would dramatically increase!


Or more kids would be adopted by parents unable to have kids of their own - and children who would have been denied life because of someone's selfishness would have a happy life.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I think SL has answered your question far more eloquently than I could. I could be wrong, but I doubt very much that SL would prefer not to be alive rather than to have been adopted.
> 
> SL - I hope you don't mind my presuming like this. Please let me know if this post upsets you and I will remove it.


Being adopted is not the same as being in care or bouncing around foster homes.

Of course being adopted is preferable but more often than not this does not happen.

Not many people are willing to adopt..


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Or more kids would be adopted by parents unable to have kids of their own - and children who would have been denied life because of someone's selfishness would have a happy life.


Do u think there are loads of people in the side lines? If there were we wouldn't have so many kids in care.

Being denied life means never having to suffer.

I genuinely don't get peoples view on this right to life stuff.. If you are never born you can't miss it. Where as being in a horrible care home and seeing all your school mates with nice parents, you do know what you are missing

How is that ok??


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Being adopted is not the same as being in care or bouncing around foster homes.
> 
> Of course being adopted is preferable but more often than not this does not happen.
> 
> Not many people are willing to adopt..


I think you are mistaken. There is a huge pool of people wanting to adopt a baby, but who never get a chance. Why do you think people end up adopting children from abroad? Why do you think there is a dreadful black market trade in snatching babies and young children and selling them to childless couples - couples who are totally innocent and think they have merely gone through a private adoption agency?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I genuinely don't get peoples view on this right to life stuff.. If you are never born you can't miss it. Where as being in a horrible care home and seeing all your school mates with nice parents, you do know what you are missing
> 
> How is that ok??


How can any person make the decision that another person should live or die? How can one woman deny someone a life - a life that could well be a long and happy life. How is that ok?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I think you are mistaken. There is a huge pool of people wanting to adopt a baby, but who never get a chance. Why do you think people end up adopting children from abroad? Why do you think there is a dreadful black market trade in snatching babies and young children and selling them to childless couples - couples who are totally innocent and think they have merely gone through a private adoption agency?


Maybe there are loads and loads of people waiting but who don't pass the criteria. But I wonder how many want to adopt a ten year old or a teenager?? Bet not as many as a new born..

I personally only know of one person who has adopted and they did that the legit way..


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> How can any person make the decision that another person should live or die? How can one woman deny someone a life - a life that could well be a long and happy life. How is that ok?


Because its their body and their choice..

Nobody will tell me that I have to have a child, if I was in a position where I conveived.

People Should be supported for their decisions. Not made to feel bad..


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Maybe there are loads and loads of people waiting but who don't pass the criteria. But I wonder how many want to adopt a ten year old or a teenager?? Bet not as many as a new born..
> 
> I personally only know of one person who has adopted and they did that the legit way..


But we are not talking about older children who have gone into care for whatever reason - unless you are trying to pretend that every older person in care is someone whose mother didn't want them, but nevertheless decided to continue with a pregnancy rather than abort. We are talking about women aborting babies - babies that could live, be adopted, lead a happy life.

And don't try to argue that by the time the adoption goes through the baby will have been in care fror a long time - if that is the case, then the fact that the adoption system needs overhauling is no reason to advocate abortion.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Because its their body and their choice..
> 
> Nobody will tell me that I have to have a child, if I was in a position where I conveived.
> 
> People Should be supported for their decisions. Not made to feel bad..


No, it's not their choice. There is a little matter of the law. The law tells you that you have to have a child if you conceive a child. The law won't let you end a life just because you don't particularly want to be pregnant that month.

The attitude, "it's my body and my life" is, sadly, typical of the individual selfishness that we see everywhere these days. Sometimes I despair of the human race. As for supporting people's decisions - I make no apologies for saying that I could never support such a selfish decision. And if someone feels bad for killing a baby inside them - well, enough said.

(Apologies here to anyone who has had to have an abortion for true medical reasons - I don't mean to include you in this. I fully appreciate your decision won't have been selfish and will have been truly heart-breaking)


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> But we are not talking about older children who have gone into care for whatever reason - unless you are trying to pretend that every older person in care is someone whose mother didn't want them, but nevertheless decided to continue with a pregnancy rather than abort. We are talking about women aborting babies - babies that could live, be adopted, lead a happy life.
> 
> And don't try to argue that by the time the adoption goes through the baby will have been in care fror a long time - if that is the case, then the fact that the adoption system needs overhauling is no reason to advocate abortion.


I'm not pretending anything.. I see the reality every day. Situations most people never have to see.

Older kids in care are the product of their mum not being bothered with them or having lots of other kids and not being able to cope or they are druggies or they drink.

Older kids are not in care because their dear parents have died but mainly because they brought these kids into the world under the wrong circumstances. Had they have used protection or had terminated the pregnancy then they wouldn't be there..


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## Golgotha_tramp (Feb 27, 2011)

My mother works for child services and I can tell you there are a *lot* of babies un-adopted who can spend there whole childhood in care.

People want either want their carbon copy or, if "settling" for adoption, want to "pick" their baby (blond hair, blue eyes, boy, girl etc.)

It is complete naïvety to think think that every baby put op for adoption gets a home - the majority do not.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

there wouldn't be as many children in care/foster/adoption if s,s was given less power, yes they do a good job but some parents are having there child removed for petty stupid things then others that beat there child that live in a home with animal mess stains on the floor and then there child is left in that condition and please don't say there not because yes they are i know they are my sister in law still has her child with s,s going round weekly and the house is a pig sty!!!

if these loved and wanted children was left alone in there families then the unwanted babies wouldn't be left in the a foster care ping pong game for the rest of there young lives.

everyone's going on about human right's for mothers etc, so your saying that small growing child with a heart beating that has a soul HASN'T got a human right as well.

i know am gonna get hung drawn and quartered for these comments but i really don't care as it's my view and EVERYONE has a right to that.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

purrr said:


> there wouldn't be as many children in care/foster/adoption if s,s was given less power, yes they do a good job but some parents are having there child removed for petty stupid things then others that beat there child that live in a home with animal mess stains on the floor and then there child is left in that condition and please don't say there not because yes they are i know they are my sister in law still has her child with s,s going round weekly and the house is a pig sty!!!
> 
> if these loved and wanted children was left alone in there families then the unwanted babies wouldn't be left in the a foster care ping pong game for the rest of there young lives.
> 
> ...


Social services don't generally walk into peoples houses and just take their children away. They have to have a reason. Perhaps the people you know who have relayed this information have not been very honest..

I agree that they have made mistakes and there have been some high profile cases to back that up.

No an unborn child has no rights. But the mother does..


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

What an interesting topic. 

I have no such feelings of guilt where abortion is concerned. I only wish more people would use use precautions, but if they don't then I wish they would have an abortion instead of bringing kids into the world and making it someone else's problem 

Thankfully we live in a society where by the woman can choose and long may it continue!


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> Social services don't generally walk into peoples houses and just take their children away. They have to have a reason. Perhaps the people you know who have relayed this information have not been very honest..
> 
> I agree that they have made mistakes and there have been some high profile cases to back that up.
> 
> No an unborn child has no rights. But the mother does..


so your saying that my son who they took because i took him away from a abusive father and refused to go back was and is a good enough reason to take him?? and using the fact the case has gone on so long that its better for him to stay where he is than rather return him to a loving family, a good enough reason to keep him?? il answer that NO it's not, and YES they do just walk in and take a child.

and as far as my sis in law, it is all fact's as iv been to her home iv seen her home and felt sick at the sight and smell of the place, and iv also been there when s,s turned up.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> My mother works for child services and I can tell you there are a *lot* of babies un-adopted who can spend there whole childhood in care.
> 
> People want either want their carbon copy or, if "settling" for adoption, want to "pick" their baby (blond hair, blue eyes, boy, girl etc.)
> 
> It is complete naïvety to think think that every baby put op for adoption gets a home - the majority do not.


And I have experience from the other side - as a one-time secretary of a local support group for would-be adoptive parents I have known many, many childless couples who merely wanted to adopt a baby - any baby - and not this "carbon copy" you keep on about. I have kniown many couples who would have made excellent parents who never got a chance to adopt because there were no babies available. There are people crying out to adopt who never get a chance - always have been and always will be.

The adoption system in this country is chronic and long-winded. However, as I said earlier - the fact that the whole system needs a overhaul is no reason to advocate abortion. Instead of ending lives, overhaul the system, get the babies to the adoptive parents longing for them.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

purrr said:


> everyone's going on about human right's for mothers etc, so your saying that small growing child with a heart beating that has a soul HASN'T got a human right as well.
> .


but let me assure you , theres no fun in watching a small child die either had someone had the choice if issues we were told could have been picked up reasonably early on , sadly i have to watch my 20 month old niece die , so does her mother , her father and every other family member that is close to her. rest assured , theres absolutely no fun in that.


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## Snippet (Apr 14, 2011)

purrr said:


> everyone's going on about human right's for mothers etc, so your saying that small growing child with a heart beating that has a soul HASN'T got a human right as well.
> 
> i know am gonna get hung drawn and quartered for these comments but i really don't care as it's my view and EVERYONE has a right to that.


I think it depends on when you think life begins. I don't think it begins until the foetus is capable of surviving outside it's mother so wouldn't have and qualms about having an early abortion.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> No an unborn child has no rights. But the mother does..





goodvic2 said:


> Thankfully we live in a society where by the woman can choose and long may it continue!


You keep saying things like this, but you are wrong. A woman doesn't have the right to an abortion, or to choose an abortion. By law in this country you can only have an abortion if continuing with the pregnancy would seriously affect your physical or mental health.

You don't get the right to choose to kill your baby just because you don't feel like being pregnant at the time.

Your lack of knowledge on this subject makes me question the rest of the things you purport to know re kids in care and adoption.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

diablo said:


> but let me assure you , theres no fun in watching a small child die either had someone had the choice if issues we were told could have been picked up reasonably early on , sadly i have to watch my 20 month old niece die , so does her mother , her father and every other family member that is close to her. rest assured , theres absolutely no fun in that.


i never said i was 100% against abortions as for the right reason's am sure its for the best as no one want's to see a child die, and if the test's would have shown up that something was very wrong with the baby and that he/she would end up in pain etc then yeah if the mother wishes abort the pregnancy, but aborting just because it's a girl or it has a cleft pallet, or your carpets would get stained is wrong its very wrong, 
and i know its not, iv lost a baby half way into pregnancy, iv also had to sit and watch my premie baby boy die.

if a person is not stable enough to look after a child then why have a abortion when that person should not have risked getting pregnant, it states on the pill and on condoms that it is NOT 100% affective well if you really don't want a child there is other ways of having sex that would prevent a pregnancy...


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## Golgotha_tramp (Feb 27, 2011)

purrr said:


> well if you really don't want a child there is other ways of having sex that would prevent a pregnancy...


yeah, like in the ear!:001_tt2:


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> yeah, like in the ear!:001_tt2:


well it might f*** some sense into some people my sis in law being one :lol:


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## Golgotha_tramp (Feb 27, 2011)

purrr said:


> well it might f*** some sense into some people my sis in law being one :lol:


you know what they say "once you go black, you go deaf" :lol:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Snippet said:


> I think it depends on when you think life begins. I don't think it begins until the foetus is capable of surviving outside it's mother so wouldn't have and qualms about having an early abortion.


But that depends upon knowing exactly when the foetus can survive outside the mother. The current limit is 24 weeks - yet, as I said earlier, my friend's daughter was born at 23 weeks and she survived, and is now a healthy, happy adult. She was a fully-formed child at 23 weeks - not a foetus, not something that you could have scraped out of your womb like so much unwanted rubbish. Yet technically, under your thinking, that is what could have happened to her if she had had one of these mothers who didn't fancy being pregnant at the time..

For me, life begins at conception.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Golgotha_tramp said:


> you know what they say "once you go black, you go deaf" :lol:


pmsl, but trust me i don't think a bloke would f*** it's ear let alone anywhere else, it's still a mystery to the family on how she got pregnant not once but twice :lol:


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## Snippet (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> But that depends upon knowing exactly when the foetus can survive outside the mother. The current limit is 24 weeks - yet, as I said earlier, my friend's daughter was born at 23 weeks and she survived. She was a fully-formed child at 23 weeks - not a foetus, not something that you could have scraped out of your womb like so much unwanted rubbish. Yet technically, under your thinking, that is what could have happened to her if she had had one of these mothers who didn't fancy being pregnant at the time..
> 
> For me, life begins at conception.


Hence why I said 'early' ie up to 12 weeks. I don't agree with late (20 weeks +) abortions for anything other that serious disabilities on the baby's part or serious harm to the mother. I don't understand why someone who didn't want a baby and who wanted to have an abortion would leave it to the point where they could potentially give birth to a live baby. That could just be my look on things as the idea of being pregnant terrifies me.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2012)

purrr said:


> if a person is not stable enough to look after a child then why have a abortion when that person should not have risked getting pregnant, it states on the pill and on condoms that it is NOT 100% affective well if you really don't want a child there is other ways of having sex that would prevent a pregnancy...


i`ve already gone into that , there are so many scenario`s already been discussed and covered , thing is , you know , where do you draw the line ? is it not reasonable for a victim of rape to request an abortion ? not reasonable to request an abortion after a drunken fumble possibly in a situation where you don`t know who the father is ? is it not reasonable if you`re forced into having sex at any age that you are not entitled to request an abortion ? i`ve covered disabled people too , is it not they`re right too ?
it`s all well and good saying , well , you shouldn`t be having sex or should be sterilized , how many men exactly make the decision to have a vasectomy because they don`t want children ? not many i would think. so why do all these decisions have to fall to the women , a man is just as responsible for making a baby as a woman is , babies don`t get there on they`re own! and contraception shouldn`t always be a womans responsibility , they`re are many reasons why men should protect themselves , but don`t anyway , why is that ????
you know there are so many reasons why abortion shouldn`t be allowed , but in the same hand theres so many reasons why they should it is a personal decision and i gotta admit it`s not one i personally would like to make.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

diablo said:


> i`ve already gone into that , there are so many scenario`s already been discussed and covered , thing is , you know , where do you draw the line ? is it not reasonable for a victim of rape to request an abortion ? not reasonable to request an abortion after a drunken fumble possibly in a situation where you don`t know who the father is ? is it not reasonable if you`re forced into having sex at any age that you are not entitled to request an abortion ? i`ve covered disabled people too , is it not they`re right too ?
> it`s all well and good saying , well , you shouldn`t be having sex or should be sterilized , how many men exactly make the decision to have a vasectomy because they don`t want children ? not many i would think. so why do all these decisions have to fall to the women , a man is just as responsible for making a baby as a woman is , babies don`t get there on they`re own! and contraception shouldn`t always be a womans responsibility , they`re are many reasons why men should protect themselves , but don`t anyway , why is that ????
> you know there are so many reasons why abortion shouldn`t be allowed , but in the same hand theres so many reasons why they should it is a personal decision and i gotta admit it`s not one i personally would like to make.


in a past post i put, i said im not 100% against abortion and iv said it again, and if a girl falls pregnant via rape then that is up to them, the police do offer the morning after pill after they have taken there evidence,

i did not say anything about been sterilized forced or not and yes it IS also down to the bloke as well.

and i think the reason some men don't is because they can just walk away so easy, they don't like the feel of condom's and because not all men are responsible, and because the only thing men can use is condoms or as men call them shrink wrap!!!!


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

I feel for the fathers in these situations, I think its morally wrong that a woman can kill his child all cos its in her body, why not do the decent thing and either shut your damn legs or give the baby to the father when its born. Nine months out of her life to sacrifice for falling preggers is nothing compared to taking a lifetime away from an unborn person all cos you decide **** it I dont want it now.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I think SL has answered your question far more eloquently than I could. I could be wrong, but I doubt very much that SL would prefer not to be alive rather than to have been adopted.
> 
> SL - I hope you don't mind my presuming like this. Please let me know if this post upsets you and I will remove it.


I'm sure my posts irritate a good few people, but yes, I'm glad to be here 



goodvic2 said:


> Being adopted is not the same as being in care or bouncing around foster homes.
> 
> Of course being adopted is preferable but more often than not this does not happen.
> 
> Not many people are willing to adopt..


I think the rules around adoption currently make it very difficult, this has been highlighted in the news recently, so for couples wanting to adopt a baby, and wanting to have the experience of having a baby right from a young age, it becomes incredibily difficult from what I understand, as the adoption process can be quite long and drawn out. I'd imagine that in itself would put enough people off. I've thought of adopting a child myself, not a baby, but an older child, we'll see.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Thankfully we live in a society where by the woman can choose and long may it continue!


I wonder how many women would be so accepting of abortion if nature was reversed, if the man carried her baby and had the choice to murder it over her cos you know its his body.


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## piglet2003 (Jan 21, 2012)

I think the laws need to be tightened with abortion, I have had 8 pregnancys and had only 3 live births. I was offered an abortion with my youngest child as they said she was downs syndrome which i turned down as i no matter what she was my baby and would be loved. As it turned out the doctors got it wrong and she wasn't downs, ok she has medical problems but she is how she is and i don't see her any different from normal children. I was also asked if i wanted to know the sex of my babys at the scans but turned them down as i always wanted it to be a surprise and as long as they are ok sex dosen't matter.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> You keep saying things like this, but you are wrong. A woman doesn't have the right to an abortion, or to choose an abortion. By law in this country you can only have an abortion if continuing with the pregnancy would seriously affect your physical or mental health.
> 
> You don't get the right to choose to kill your baby just because you don't feel like being pregnant at the time.
> 
> Your lack of knowledge on this subject makes me question the rest of the things you purport to know re kids in care and adoption.


Regardless of what the law says, anyone can walk into a clinic and have one. They may have to say the right words. I don't know anything about abortion, as I have never had to have one.

Kids in care and abortion are two different subjects by the way..


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> I feel for the fathers in these situations, I think its morally wrong that a woman can kill his child all cos its in her body, why not do the decent thing and either shut your damn legs or give the baby to the father when its born. Nine months out of her life to sacrifice for falling preggers is nothing compared to taking a lifetime away from an unborn person all cos you decide **** it I dont want it now.


My goodness where do you live????

Check out the single mums in council housing whose partners are not around.  The kids who don't have dads because they can't be assed.

Why do you think we have such a problem with crime and gangs in juvenilles? Because there are a lack of family values, owing to the fact most of the time dad is not around and mum is either struggling or can't be bothered herself.

It would be lovely the think that these "dads" are the victims here. They are not.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sure my posts irritate a good few people, but yes, I'm glad to be here
> 
> I think the rules around adoption currently make it very difficult, this has been highlighted in the news recently, so for couples wanting to adopt a baby, and wanting to have the experience of having a baby right from a young age, it becomes incredibily difficult from what I understand, as the adoption process can be quite long and drawn out. I'd imagine that in itself would put enough people off. I've thought of adopting a child myself, not a baby, but an older child, we'll see.


I have also thought about adoption. But due to my dogs (As you know) I am unable. And as I am unwilling to give up the dogs I can't adopt. Which is my case is fair enough.

Adoption is a wonderful thing, but it Is such a slow process.

Most people also only want a new born or very young child, which doesn't help our current kids in care x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> I wonder how many women would be so accepting of abortion if nature was reversed, if the man carried her baby and had the choice to murder it over her cos you know its his body.


If I was a bloke and couldn't be bothered to use a condom then I can hardly complain if the other party got pregnant can I?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I have also thought about adoption. But due to my dogs (As you know) I am unable. And as I am unwilling to give up the dogs I can't adopt. Which is my case is fair enough.
> 
> Adoption is a wonderful thing, but it Is such a slow process.
> 
> Most people also only want a new born or very young child, which doesn't help our current kids in care x


I know, it makes me so sad thinking about all those bairns in care, that would love a home, a lot of them ain't gonna be easy, but every child deserves a home where they feel secure, so many go without unfortunately


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> My goodness where do you live????
> 
> Check out the single mums in council housing whose partners are not around. The kids who don't have dads because they can't be assed.
> 
> ...


I actually agree with waterlily. And i live in Manchester,UK so only know too well that there are plenty of absent fathers. My eldest doesnt see his biological father, and my god is he missing out! But I have never stopped him from seeing him and nor would I have had an abortion without discussing it with him. There are a lot more men out there than you think that would be/are distraught that the woman has gone ahead and had a termination without any consent from them. 
As i have said, this is a VERY grey area and such a sensitive subject that I cant comment on everything that is being discussed, but I do still believe that the fathers still have a right to know whats happening with their unborn child. Of course being attacked is a different matter entirely.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Regardless of what the law says, anyone can walk into a clinic and have one. They may have to say the right words. I don't know anything about abortion, as I have never had to have one.


Exactly. The whole point of what I was saying in the first place. Anyone can have an abortion despite what the law says because the law is flouted to allow women who don't fancy being pregnant to kill their unborn child.

And now it appears that the law is being flouted in that anyone can have an abortion because they don't like the sex of their unborn child.

So, back to to my original point, what is the difference between the two? To say that a woman can kill her unborn child just because she didn't want that particular gender, is no worse than saying a woman can kill her unborn child just because she doesn't fancy being pregnant at the time.

The argument you've used for the latter - ie "it's my body and I can do what I want with it" holds true in either case. Why do you think it is ok to say, "it is my body and I can do what I want with it and kill my unborn child because I don't want to be pregnant" but not ok to say "it is my body and I can do what I want with it and kill my unborn child because I don't want to carry a boy"?

Both are equally abhorrent viewpoints. Both are against the law in this country; yet the law is being flouted in both cases. Why do you think it is ok to flout the law in one case and not the other?



goodvic2 said:


> Kids in care and abortion are two different subjects by the way..


Well, having said this to you a few posts ago I think you would realise I knew that!  You were the one who brought up kids in care. I was the one who poited out we were talking about babies being put up for adoption instead of being killed and that your points about kids in care - however accurate/inaccurate - were irrelevant.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

I totally agree that ss are a waste of space and take children at the drop of a hat for no real reason..the adoption system also needs a serious overhaul because people have been refused for the most ridiculous reasons!are

Abortion in this country is legal up to 24 weeks ..by that time the baby could quite easily with a little help survive..infact they have a 50% chance of survival at this point and i think 80% at 26 weeks (cant remember but its something like that)..A BABY is pretty much fully formed by around 17 weeks and thats when the organs start to develop properly..please note i have used the term baby and NOT foeatus. 
Now to the people who say they are for abortion until the child is able to survive outside the mother..please, please do tell me if you can see how it is morally right to abort a BABY that is 23 weeks +6 days..unless there is something SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY wrong with either the mother or the baby!

The pic attatched below was taken at 24 weeks +1 day gestation..by law i could have terminated my BABY 2 days prior to this scan...There is a BABY in that pic NOT foeatus!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> If someone does not want a child, or cannot support a child, rather than getting rid of it as a mere inconvenience, I think it is far better to allow the child to live and be adopted.


Unfortunately - life really isn't that simple - children who are put into the hands of social services as babies and older often have truly SHOCKING lives and don't live happily ever after with parents desperate for a family they cannot create themselves 

My aunt and Uncle couldn't have children - they fostered and then adopted two boys - social services had no qualms about separating the family and leaving a brother behind.

These boys had the best of everything from love to education and beyond - the lucky ones? maybe - but it didn't stop them following in the footsteps of their "original" family - my aunt and uncle barely see their two grandchildren from the oldest son, the youngest son is just EVIL 

These were the lucky kids - so many more aren't lucky and get shunted from pillar to post, often ending up parents themselves at very young ages, frequently getting into drugs and abusive relationships where their children end up being removed and put in the social services "family" and the whole cycle continues.

Even where they hang on to these kids, the cycle of benefit culture and latch key, often almost street kids continues - in some areas, families are on 4th or 5th generations of such a culture with absolutely no hope of breaking the cycle or changing the culture 

Only a relatively small proportion of kids who end up in the social services cycle go on to live happy lives with new families 

======================================

As for the cut-off date for terminations - my daughter's half sister has been having investigations for PCOS for the last couple of years - she has been in and out of hospital - she's had scans, pregnancy tests - you name it, she's had it.

Just 4 weeks ago, the hospital called her in after a routine blood test to tell her she was 32 weeks pregnant - even the scans she had had somehow missed the baby (which in itself is truly SHOCKING).

She was one of these kids who was doing well to break the cycle of her family before her - their father is a ****** who had never done a days work in his life until I fell pregnant -he didn't meet his own father until he was 23, my daughter didn't meet her father until she was 19 - thankfully, i had the good sense, and support to be able to break away from a culture of violence and apathy - so many others are nowhere near as lucky.

Fortunately, her half sister didn't mind she was pregnant - she is still friends with the baby's father and has a mother and half sister willing to support and help her and an employer willing for her to return to work even through she hadn't been with them a year - she at least has a chance of being able to break the family culture - many more don't 

====================================

I totally agree that permitting abortions based on gender is shocking in the extreme 

I also agree that allowing abortions after 12 weeks except where there are strong medical & psychological grounds for doing so - my friends daughter was born at 6 months, and although she had a very rocky start in life, she is now a happy, healthy and rather bright 3 year old. A 2nd cousin of mine was born before 7 months and is now in her mid 30's.

========================================

Unfortunately, until the rules and bureaucrats enforcing them in this country on fostering and adoption are sufficiently amended to allow genuine people who can offer lives with prospects to babies and young children - sadly, the assumed route of babies being given to families who will love and cherish them forever frequently simply doesn't happen

Many of these kids lives are often on a par with puppies born to irresponsible breeders - spending their lives shunted from pillar to post between families who can't care and social services who don't have the finances, skills or capacity to care for them properly - if that was a pet owner with an "accidentally" pregnant bitch - the majority of you would be very clear on what steps should be taken.

The only difference is, where these dogs are fortunate enough to end up in loving homes, they usually repay that love a thousand times over - children in the care system are (understandably) so willing to accept and make the most of such opportunities. 

Just like puppies, babies have a certain appeal for childless families, older children don't quite have the same appeal

It seems wrong to be comparing children with puppies - unfortunately, for many, the realiy is very similar


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Exactly. The whole point of what I was saying in the first place. Anyone can have an abortion despite what the law says because the law is flouted to allow women who don't fancy being pregnant to kill their unborn child.
> 
> And now it appears that the law is being flouted in that anyone can have an abortion because they don't like the sex of their unborn child.
> 
> ...


A person who is so bothered by the sex of their child is less likely to make a good parent. If you want a child then you should not be bothered on the sex of it. If you are , then you prob shouldn't have a kid

Either way to bring a child into the world when you are unable or unwilling to provide for it financially or emotionally is criminal.

That too me is far worse than having an abortion.

So in answer to your question.. I don't think people who r so bothered about the sex of the child should be having them in the first place.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

harley bear said:


> I totally agree that ss are a waste of space and take children at the drop of a hat for no real reason..the adoption system also needs a serious overhaul because people have been refused for the most ridiculous reasons!are
> 
> Abortion in this country is legal up to 24 weeks ..by that time the baby could quite easily with a little help survive..infact they have a 50% chance of survival at this point and i think 80% at 26 weeks (cant remember but its something like that)..A BABY is pretty much fully formed by around 17 weeks and thats when the organs start to develop properly..please note i have used the term baby and NOT foeatus.
> Now to the people who say they are for abortion until the child is able to survive outside the mother..please, please do tell me if you can see how it is morally right to abort a BABY that is 23 weeks +6 days..unless there is something SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY wrong with either the mother or the baby!
> ...


Excellent post. Wanted to give you rep for this, but it says I have to spread it about a bit before I can rep you again.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> A person who is so bothered by the sex of their child is less likely to make a good parent. If you want a child then you should not be bothered on the sex of it. If you are , then you prob shouldn't have a kid
> 
> Either way to bring a child into the world when you are unable or unwilling to provide for it financially or emotionally is criminal.
> 
> ...


You have no idea how common gender dissapointment is! I was disgisted with some 'mothers' comments on certain baby forums because they found out they were having boys and they wanted girls..one mother even told her husband that she would sign custody over to him and it would be better if he left with the baby!

Selfish, selfish people who think they can make a life and toss it to one side if its not perfect! Makes me sick to the stomach!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Unfortunately - life really isn't that simple - children who are put into the hands of social services as babies and older often have truly SHOCKING lives and don't live happily ever after with parents desperate for a family they cannot create themselves
> 
> My aunt and Uncle couldn't have children - they fostered and then adopted two boys - social services had no qualms about separating the family and leaving a brother behind.
> 
> ...


Brilliantly post!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

harley bear said:


> You have no idea how common gender dissapointment is! I was disgisted with some 'mothers' comments on certain baby forums because they found out they were having boys and they wanted girls..one mother even told her husband that she would sign custody over to him and it would be better if he left with the baby!
> 
> Selfish, selfish people who think they can make a life and toss it to one side if its not perfect! Makes me sick to the stomach!


That is disgusting.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Well, having said this to you a few posts ago I think you would realise I knew that!  You were the one who brought up kids in care. I was the one who poited out we were talking about babies being put up for adoption instead of being killed and that your points about kids in care - however accurate/inaccurate - were irrelevant.


I disagree.. I think there is a direct link between unwanted kids and abortion.

We have lots of kids in care because their parents don't want them, or had them in the wrong situation. Had they have had an abortion then the kid would not be in care.

If your views were to be implemented and therefore made it almost impossible for a woman to have an abortion, then there would be even more unwanted kids.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Kids in care and abortion are two different subjects by the way..





goodvic2 said:


> I disagree.. I think there is a direct link between unwanted kids and abortion.


Getting your arguments a bit mixed up, aren't you? Which one of the above do you really believe?



goodvic2 said:


> If your views were to be implemented and therefore made it almost impossible for a woman to have an abortion, then there would be even more unwanted kids.


Not if they overhauled the system and got the babies to the couples who wanted to adopt there wouldn't. Are you really advocating that it's ok to go on breaking the law, to go on killing innocents just because we can't be bothered to sort out the beaurocracy involved? What an indictment of the human race!

And btw, kids go into care for all sorts of reasons - not just because they were unwanted as babies but their mother felt she couldn't have an abortion.  Trying to pretend that every kid is in care because their mum didn't want to be pregnant but didn't want an abortion is just plain silly and makes me wonder if you really do have the knowledge of the subject you purport to have.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Scans have to be hugely blamed for this, i wonder how many women years ago before the ability to be able to know the babys sex, put their babies up for adoption just because they were the wrong sex, i would say not many and couples still had a preference even then.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> We have lots of kids in care because their parents don't want them, or had them in the wrong situation. Had they have had an abortion then the kid would not be in care.


my son is not in care because i didn't want him nor because i couldn't have a abortion i love my son more than anything and my life is as good as over without him in it, i have refused to have my good bye contact because i CAN NOT say good bye to my child, my son is in care because the whole thing is wrong and s,s have way to much power, my son IS IN CARE BECAUSE I REFUSED TO TAKE HIM BACK INTO A HOME WHERE HIS FATHER WAS BEATING ME AND I WASN'T GONNA TAKE THE RISK OF HIM TURNING ON MY SON!!!!!

yes some are in care because there so called parents didn't want them, but with all the power s,s have been given the past few years most are because s,s need there numbers up and what's better a 1yr old child with no problems or a 3 yr old that has issues because they have been abused by there parents, so they make up rubbish to take the youngest child.

abortions should only be allowed on medical grounds be it mother or child, or if they poor woman/girl was raped but then why would they wait till they got to 20+ weeks to have the abortion? you would take the morning after pill and then do pregnancy test's weekly
it should not be allowed because they don't want a boy or girl, and the dates for abortions needs to be lowered A LOT


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

purrr said:


> my son is not in care because i didn't want him nor because i couldn't have a abortion i love my son more than anything and my life is as good as over without him in it, i have refused to have my good bye contact because i CAN NOT say good bye to my child, my son is in care because the whole thing is wrong and s,s have way to much power, my son IS IN CARE BECAUSE I REFUSED TO TAKE HIM BACK INTO A HOME WHERE HIS FATHER WAS BEATING ME AND I WASN'T GONNA TAKE THE RISK OF HIM TURNING ON MY SON!!!!!
> 
> yes some are in care because there so called parents didn't want them, but with all the power s,s have been given the past few years most are because s,s need there numbers up and what's better a 1yr old child with no problems or a 3 yr old that has issues because they have been abused by there parents, so they make up rubbish to take the youngest child.
> 
> ...


Just reading your posts makes my blood boil!
How the hell can some nobody from ss take your son away for trying to protect him?!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

purrr said:


> my son is not in care because i didn't want him nor because i couldn't have a abortion i love my son more than anything and my life is as good as over without him in it, i have refused to have my good bye contact because i CAN NOT say good bye to my child, my son is in care because the whole thing is wrong and s,s have way to much power, my son IS IN CARE BECAUSE I REFUSED TO TAKE HIM BACK INTO A HOME WHERE HIS FATHER WAS BEATING ME AND I WASN'T GONNA TAKE THE RISK OF HIM TURNING ON MY SON!!!!!
> 
> yes some are in care because there so called parents didn't want them, but with all the power s,s have been given the past few years most are because s,s need there numbers up and what's better a 1yr old child with no problems or a 3 yr old that has issues because they have been abused by there parents, so they make up rubbish to take the youngest child.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I don't know your story but why would you choose to be with a man who beats you rather than leaving & looking after your son? or have I read this wrong - apologies if I have!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry, I don't know your story but why would you choose to be with a man who beats you rather than leaving & looking after your son? or have I read this wrong - apologies if I have!


I was in this situation and walked away when my daughter was just three weeks old - sleeping on friends floors and then spare rooms literally with the clothes I stood up in, a baby and a carrycot 

I didn't 'think' my OH would ever lay a finger on my daughter, but I wasn't prepared to take that risk.

She is 23 now and initially, she hated me for taking her away from her 'real' father and put much of her resentment onto my partner of 19 years.

I am very glad to say having now met her father - it took her less than a month to realise what a complete a******e he was - and how much better her life turned out to be because I had the courage to walk away.

The only good thing to come out of it was that she now has a half brother and sister she adores and is about to become an aunty - but they didn't have anywhere near half the life she had - fortunately they had a mother that loved and fought for them. - as for my partner, her meeting her father was the best thing that could ever have happened, because now she realises what a good man he is, and what a good father he has been to her.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I know someone who travelled to USA to have an abortion at THIRTY EIGHT WEEKS gestation - because she found out the baby was Downs Syndrome. I don't think I'll ever be able to look her in the eye or speak to her as a normal person ever again. :nonod:


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry, I don't know your story but why would you choose to be with a man who beats you rather than leaving & looking after your son? or have I read this wrong - apologies if I have!


yes you read it wrong, the first time he beat me, me and my son packed our bags and walked out.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

purrr said:


> yes you read it wrong, the first time he beat me, me and my son packed our bags and walked out.


I read it two ways, sorry!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I was in this situation and walked away when my daughter was just three weeks old - sleeping on friends floors and then spare rooms literally with the clothes I stood up in, a baby and a carrycot
> 
> I didn't 'think' my OH would ever lay a finger on my daughter, but I wasn't prepared to take that risk.
> 
> ...


Am glad things worked out for you all.

My OH had a difficult childhood & was in an abusive family. Unfortunately his mother didn't give a sh*t when her boyfriend was laying in to her kids but only left when he hit her.

It makes me sick the way some people treat their children


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

harley bear said:


> Just reading your posts makes my blood boil!
> How the hell can some nobody from ss take your son away for trying to protect him?!


because the bloke who was the s,s worker was on my ex's side and removed my son, yet the police said i did they right thing. it all goes down to they have way to much power.
one of the other worst things is if s,s finds out iv talked about the case in a open public forum they can have me arrested as they put a gag order on all cases now so you cant even go to the papers for the injustice


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I read it two ways, sorry!


thats ok i should have stated


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

harley bear said:


> You have no idea how common gender dissapointment is! I was disgisted with some 'mothers' comments on certain baby forums because they found out they were having boys and they wanted girls..one mother even told her husband that she would sign custody over to him and it would be better if he left with the baby!
> 
> Selfish, selfish people who think they can make a life and toss it to one side if its not perfect! Makes me sick to the stomach!


My cousin has two boys (who she adores) but would also like a girl. She struggled with both her pregnancies. If you could guaraantee she had a girl she would go through it again, but you can't so she won't.

I'll be honest, I would like one of each (although i have it in my head i will have 2 boys and a girl), and if I ended up with all of one i would be a little sad i didnt have one of each. But I would never get rid based on that. Like I said, I dont know what circumstances I would need to be in to choose abortion (I chose to keep a rape baby, but lost it anyway - and that was after taking the morning after pill).

But I am still very pro-choice. But late stage abortions should be in EXTREME circumstances. If you dont want it, get the abortion up to maybe 14 weeks. I also think you should have mandatory counselling before and after the decision.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

WelshOneEmma said:


> * But late stage abortions should be in EXTREME circumstances.* If you dont want it, get the abortion up to maybe 14 weeks. I also think you should have mandatory counselling before and after the decision.


Absolutely. I think only if the baby is not viable actually. But 38 weeks is just murder, in opinion.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> My goodness where do you live????
> 
> Check out the single mums in council housing whose partners are not around. The kids who don't have dads because they can't be assed.
> 
> ...


what in the flying **** do the chavs in your area have to do with my comment about abortion been unfair to fathers that dont have a say ?? Or are you trying to say that these parents should have aborted ?  Are you that ignorant to assume that the only mums denying a dad a say with abortion are lower class are you ? you dont think females of _all_ walks and financial positions get them as well ? ut:
I stand by my opinion as is _my right_ to, dont you try and act like your view is gospel, cos it infact is contradictory.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> what in the flying **** do the chavs in your area have to do with my comment about abortion been unfair to fathers that dont have a say ?? Or are you trying to say that these parents should have aborted ?  Are you that ignorant to assume that the only mums denying a dad a say with abortion are lower class are you ? you dont think females of _all_ walks and financial positions get them as well ? ut:
> I stand by my opinion as is _my right_ to, dont you try and act like your view is gospel, cos it infact is contradictory.


I am as entitled to my say as anyone. 

I don't believe there are that many fathers who want a kid when the mother doesn't. I'm sure you can find a few, but they are in the minority.

And my comment is a realistic take on the country in general, not a few isolated incidents...


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I am as entitled to my say as anyone.
> 
> *I don't believe *there are that many fathers who want a kid when the mother doesn't. I'm sure you can find a few, but they are in the minority.


You have statistics ? or you just dont believe lol, totally different  I know a lot of fathers that have been screwed over by nasty exes and had the right to see their children taken off them, but I dont sit here and say_ I believe all_ females are vindictive do I  
and yeah we have different views, each entitled to it, so no need to be a smart ass about where someone lives then aye or do you think Britain is the only place it happens


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> You have statistics ? or you just dont believe lol, totally different  I know a lot of fathers that have been screwed over by nasty exes and had the right to see their children taken off them, but I dont sit here and say_ I believe all_ females are vindictive do I
> and yeah we have different views, each entitled to it, so no need to be a smart ass about where someone lives then aye or do you think Britain is the only place it happens


I can't speak about other countries...

But the general public are not exposed to the every day problems in society. They can only go on their own experience or what they read in the media or watch on the tele.

People who work in the emergency services or social services etc see the reality of this every day.

I am not intending to be patronising at all. But people have these holier than thou views, which in my opinion is not a reflection of what is going on in society.

It would be lovely to think that every parent wants its child, or that there is a home for every unwanted child. But this is NOT the case. Every borough is crying out for foster carers because they have so many kids in care.

If people on here had their way then abortion would be far harder to have, except in extreme circumstances, and the problem we have at the moment would be even worse.

We have enough people having kids who don't want them and don't give them the life that every child deserves. Lets not make it worse by making it even harder to have an abortion.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I can't speak about other countries...
> 
> But the general public are not exposed to the every day problems in society. They can only go on their own experience or what they read in the media or watch on the tele.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, are we talking about social services or abortion now  Just because you work in one agency and see a percentage of cases of child abuse doesnt mean you are the expert lol, arent you the one that said in an earlier post that the two arent comparable ?  
For a start these parents you "work" with have children that are alive and have nothing at all to do with females that decide to abort cos they werent careful. Im not even sure why you like to bring it up.  The ones you see are the ones that want the kids for the gov money most likely and would have them regardless if abortion was made harder or not. I dont get why people advocate murder instead of parenting classes, or better yet get mad at the ones that cant keep their knees together instead of the ones that are anti kill.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> It would be lovely to think that every parent wants its child, or that there is a home for every unwanted child. But this is NOT the case. Every borough is crying out for foster carers because they have so many kids in care.


Too true  - and the going rate for a foster parent is about *£23K a year * plus paid respite - there's a lot of people out there who could only dream about earning such an income - yet even paying people to be parents doesn't work  or attracts the wrong type of people 

Years ago, many families 'took care of their own' with parents and older siblings raising the child as if it were their own.

Where this didn't happen - unmarried mothers were confined to mental institutions WITH their babies - some of these kids not seeing the outside world until their 20's / 30s or older - abortion wasn't legal then and many women who couldn't bear the through of lifelong confinement, died or became sterile getting illegal abortions.

Being confined to a mental institution with your child for the remainder of your life or risk dying or face serious infection preventing the woman having any more children - what a choice NOT.

Some children were shipped to Australia with the promise of better lives - when actually many ended up in orphanages suffering brutal and cruel upbringings 

These days women do have a choice - god forbid we return to those days where there was no choice. I agree that choice shouldn't include gender selection (possibly with the exception of some genetic conditions) or late abortions without VERY good reasons - but notwithstanding that, I shuffer to think what would happen if they didn't have that choice.

Society has this naive belief that the child should be with their natural mother / parents come what may - this has led to the death and serious abuse of some of these children.

So not only were they given their right to live, but lived pretty horrendous lives which sometimes ended cruelly and abruptly by people who should never have been given the privelege to have children in the first place.

For the children who do survive and get into the care system - often they cannot be placed with families they are so psychologically damaged - girls frequently ending up pregnant at a young age and the whole viscious cycle continues - often these children, through absolutely no fault of their own - but because some people advocate their right to be brought into this world and to stay with their natural parents - have absolutely no concept of how to be civilised human beings, never mind care for and raise a child.

The determination to keep these kids with their parents means those who are desparate for babies to raise as their own don't get that chance- understandably - a lot of people simply don't want (or have the capabiity) to take on psychologically damaged children 

Sadly, the above is very much reality in many cases - yes - there will be children who end up in loving families and go on to have fantastic lives - but if the desperate need for foster families is anything to go by - the happy endings remain in the minority.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

People let emotions get way ahead of logic. I hear people saying abortion is murder because a fetus has a soul at the moment of conception. The trouble is, nothing has a soul, IMO (I'm an atheist). The issue for me becomes solely whether the fetus is capable of suffering. I'm highly doubtful this is true in the early stages of pregnancy.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DogLover1981 said:


> People let emotions get way ahead of logic. I hear people saying abortion is murder because a fetus has a soul at the moment of conception. The trouble is, nothing has a soul, IMO (I'm an atheist). The issue for me becomes solely whether the fetus is capable of suffering. I'm highly doubtful this is true in the early stages of pregnancy.


Atheist or a follower of a religion, what each person believes in purely that - a belief. Some people believe in souls and some don't. There is no way to prove either side of the argument is right - only theories on each side. And for people who do believe in souls, and that souls enter a being at the moment of conception, it is as logical for them to believe abortion is murder as for you to believe it isn't.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DogLover1981 said:


> People let emotions get way ahead of logic. I hear people saying abortion is murder because a fetus has a soul at the moment of conception. The trouble is, nothing has a soul, IMO (I'm an atheist). The issue for me becomes solely whether the fetus is capable of suffering. I'm highly doubtful this is true in the early stages of pregnancy.


Doubtful isnt fact though aye  If anyone can watch those abortion vids and not be moved or disturbed by it then words fail me.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> Doubtful isnt fact though aye  If anyone can watch those abortion vids and not be moved or disturbed by it then words fail me.


IMO if anyone can watchabortion videos and not be truely disturbed by them then imo there is something seriously wrong with them! 
Seems that people can be shocked or sickened by animal cruelty ..if an animal was being literally torn apart im sure there would be total uproar..but just because BABY can show no emotion or show its in any pain and because the law says its ok to abort up to 24 weeks them jesus it must be ok 

The people who have an 'abortion' for medical reasons tend to actually give birth to the baby..a person who chooses to have an abortion just because they are inconvenienced by the thought of a child or they dont want that particular sex then the sergical route is often used ..this takes place after about 12 weeks gestation..

IMVHO i think the people who have these late abortions be it because they just dont want the baby or they are carrying the wrong sex..if they can let the life be torn apart and pulled out of them in pieces...i would quite happily sit and watch videos of these 'parents' having their limbs torn off if they can do that to another human being...(oh of course i forgot its not a human being is it? its just a foetus )


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Wasn't it proved that a baby of 15-16 weeks gestation feels some kind of pain, I'm sure I read a study on it about 12 months ago

I don't believe in god, I am on the side of pro-choice (although I dislike it and would never personally have one ever even with a disabled baby) I do think that they are babies at conception 

I would defy anyone who told me my babies lost through mc werent babies, they were they we're mine! I wouldn't push that I think they are babies onto someone who didn't its personal choice and beliefs


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

harley bear said:


> IMO if anyone can watchabortion videos and not be truely disturbed by them then imo there is something seriously wrong with them! )


I am sure that is true - until someone find themselves in a position where they have to make a decision, it's almost impossible in reality for the majority to know which way they would go.

I know women who have risked their lives (and lost) through continuing a pregnancy and foregoing treatment to give the child life - robbing their existing children plus a new baby of their mother and no permanent father figure - consigning their children to a very uncertain future - is that right?

Personally, I am really not a "child" person - I've got my daughter and I love her more than life itself, but overall I can take of leave children - but I could NEVER EVER wish harm or witness harm being committed to a child whatever the circumstances.

Sadly, many of the people who wouldn't be moved by these videos will be the same people who would happily subject children to unpleasant and sometimes even dangerous upbringings.

THAT isn't right either - the children didn't ask to be brought into this world and they certainly don't deserve to become victims of parents who don't care and a social services system that can't cope 

Nearly every day I see people advising pet owners with accidentally pregnant dogs to abort them to stop them facing what is often an unpleasant life - sadly, there are children that do face the same (and often worse) plight.

All a child needs is love and nurtiring, you don't need to be a millionaire to raise a child well - but you do need to have inherent good nature which recognises the boundaries of when to ask for help.

Sadly - there are children born into all walks of society that will never have a chance to become decent human beings, and so the cycle continues

How anyone can say it's not OK to condemn puppies to an uncertain future, but that it is OK for children to face what could actually be a far worse plight than these puppies - last a lot longer whilst potentially producing even more generations facing exactly the same plight.

Sadly, society doesn't often allow people to pull themselves out of the gutter - it does pre-judge people by their postcode, their appearance, their academic ability, their social status and many other factors. Most of these children born into unhappy / unsafe environments will not have a role model to aspire to, therefore giving no incentive to break the cycle.

I know for a fact - if I'd stayed with my daughter's father - academically, I would never have achieved what I have and my daughter would not have achieved what she has -I was incredibly lucky that I had enough courage to walk away and to ask for help - and I put the source of that courage firmly in the rather strict but loving upbringing I had.

Sadly, there are far too many people who will never have what I had and won't have the capacity mentally to walk away - I am not criticising them for that - but as a society we do have to start looking at these continuous cycles of benefits culture and a cyclical perception of "basically that is my lot"

We all have a lot to answer for - ideally - if someone could capture many of these youngsters before they get to the stage of having abortions or babies and children being taken into care - then society might just have a hope of turning at least some of them around.

Unfortunately, we live in a soceity which has a terrible habit of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> We have lots of kids in care because their parents don't want them, or had them in the wrong situation. Had they have had an abortion then the kid would not be in care.


Well, if abortion is a choice as it appears to be in practice, there was nothing to stop these people having abortions which leads to the conclusion that they didnt' want one, so the argument is flawed.



> If people on here had their way then abortion would be far harder to have, except in extreme circumstances, and the problem we have at the moment would be even worse.
> 
> We have enough people having kids who don't want them and don't give them the life that every child deserves. Lets not make it worse by making it even harder to have an abortion.


So rather than try to create a better society we advocate people getting rid of their babies. It's a slippery slope. The law as it stands was never intended to make having abortion a choice, but clearly it now is. I wonder where we will be in another fifty years if we keep going the way we are. 



> People let emotions get way ahead of logic. I hear people saying abortion is murder because a fetus has a soul at the moment of conception. The trouble is, nothing has a soul, IMO (I'm an atheist).


We all have our own beliefs that have nothing to do with emotions and may be very logical. The bottom line is that we cannot create life, so we should not have the right to take it away.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

DogLover1981 said:


> People let emotions get way ahead of logic. I hear people saying abortion is murder because a fetus has a soul at the moment of conception. The trouble is, nothing has a soul, IMO (I'm an atheist). The issue for me becomes solely whether the fetus is capable of suffering. I'm highly doubtful this is true in the early stages of pregnancy.


I'm atheist.....''pagan'' But I believe every living being as a Soul. Your soul is everything and what makes you you 

Abortion is a very personal issue to the indvidual involved....And every case must be different. I really think It's wrong to be able to have a termination just becouse the baby is not the sex that you want...Thats Terrible...

I always wanted a Boy but was blessed with 3 beautiful Daughters.... and also now 2 wonderful little Grandsons.

Something really doe's need to be done about this and hopefully soon.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

LostGirl said:


> Wasn't it proved that a baby of 15-16 weeks gestation feels some kind of pain, I'm sure I read a study on it about 12 months ago
> 
> I don't believe in god, I am on the side of pro-choice (although I dislike it and would never personally have one ever even with a disabled baby) I do think that they are babies at conception
> 
> I would defy anyone who told me my babies lost through mc werent babies, they were they we're mine! I wouldn't push that I think they are babies onto someone who didn't its personal choice and beliefs


is it any of these 
Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

At What Stage of Development Does Fetus Feel Pain? | eHow.com


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

God!!!! I wish all I had to worry about was what sex I gave birth to,as someone who could'nt have children I find this sickening and insulting to people like me


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

purrr said:


> is it any of these
> Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News
> 
> At What Stage of Development Does Fetus Feel Pain? | eHow.com


"It's excruciating," he said. "Not only is sensitivity to pain higher in the fetus, it doesn't know when the pain is going to end."



Surely to god they can do something to kill the baby before they start ripping it to pieces doesnt matter what gestation the fetus is..it states in those reports that the have a sence of feeling at 7.5weeks..reading those reports makes me even more sick that people go ahead with these procedures so late durin pregnancy!


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I just finishing reading through this whole thread. I'm pleasantly surprised at how mature most of this thread has remained with such a lightning rod topic.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

purrr said:


> is it any of these
> Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News
> 
> At What Stage of Development Does Fetus Feel Pain? | eHow.com


Could be, I honestly cant remember it was a link from to another page on another forum, so i didnt take much notice at the time


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## PawsandPurrs-Bridgnorth (Apr 8, 2010)

> I don't believe there are that many fathers who want a kid when the mother doesn't. I'm sure you can find a few, but they are in the minority.


What an absoloute load of rubbish. I hardly ever post but this enraged me so much I had too. 

There are fantastic dads out there who are stopped from seeing their OWN children, not even allowed to speak to them by these selfish stupid women. They would jump at the chance to be loving, caring fathers they once were or have never been allowed to be.

There are bad fathers yes BUT there are just as many bad mothers.

I dont think a post has ever made me so mad.


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## purrr (Feb 5, 2012)

harley bear said:


> "It's excruciating," he said. "Not only is sensitivity to pain higher in the fetus, it doesn't know when the pain is going to end."
> 
> 
> 
> Surely to god they can do something to kill the baby before they start ripping it to pieces doesnt matter what gestation the fetus is..it states in those reports that the have a sence of feeling at 7.5weeks..reading those reports makes me even more sick that people go ahead with these procedures so late durin pregnancy!


honestly i didnt read them, today is not a good day for me and i told myself i wasn't going to comment on this post today but one comment i read i had to post a reply to it just because of what it was suggesting


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2012)

purrr said:


> because the bloke who was the s,s worker was on my ex's side and removed my son, yet the police said i did they right thing. it all goes down to they have way to much power.
> one of the other worst things is if s,s finds out iv talked about the case in a open public forum they can have me arrested as they put a gag order on all cases now so you cant even go to the papers for the injustice





purrr said:


> yes some are in care because there so called parents didn't want them, but with all the power s,s have been given the past few years most are because s,s need there numbers up and what's better a 1yr old child with no problems or a 3 yr old that has issues because they have been abused by there parents, so they make up rubbish to take the youngest child.


but you cannot lay the blame at social services feet , blame the labour government , who in 2000 / 2001 [i think it were] gave social services more power to remove children from their families , this was because labour wanted to meet adoption targets to save children languishing in care , but what the government actually failed to tell you it gave social services little or no reason at all to remove children from their parents , so to make adoption figures look good they usually like to remove babies if possible less than a year old , because they are more `adoptable` if the current statistic`s are true , over a 1000 babies a year are removed from their parents , in some cases , for little or no reason at all. you only have to google `forced adoption` to read crushing stories of parents who have had their children removed due to the labour governments crusade to meet adoption targets
just read mark and nicky`s story , if you don`t have tissues at the end of it , you ain`t human 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-465421/Parents-win-right-fourth-child--vow-fight-three.html


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

diablo said:


> but you cannot lay the blame at social services feet , blame the labour government , who in 2000 / 2001 [i think it were] gave social services more power to remove children from their families , this was because labour wanted to meet adoption targets to save children languishing in care , but what the government actually failed to tell you it gave social services little or no reason at all to remove children from their parents , so to make adoption figures look good they usually like to remove babies if possible less than a year old , because they are more `adoptable` if the current statistic`s are true , over a 1000 babies a year are removed from their parents , in some cases , for little or no reason at all. you only have to google `forced adoption` to read crushing stories of parents who have had their children removed due to the labour governments crusade to meet adoption targets
> just read mark and nicky`s story , if you don`t have tissues at the end of it , you ain`t human
> Parents win right to keep fourth child - but vow to fight for the other three | Mail Online


Hmmm reading through that it seems to me its actually more a case of the doctors covering their own backs and social services were just following that up. They had to go by the medical advice given by the doctors, the doctors got it wrong by advising such a terrible diet. I think its swaying away from the 'title' of this thread to bring SS into it. My only dealings with SS have been positive, although I am aware they do make mistakes but again not the issue of this thread.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Lavenderb said:


> Hmmm reading through that it seems to me its actually more a case of the doctors covering their own backs and social services were just following that up. They had to go by the medical advice given by the doctors, the doctors got it wrong by advising such a terrible diet. I think its swaying away from the 'title' of this thread to bring SS into it. My only dealings with SS have been positive, although I am aware they do make mistakes but again not the issue of this thread.


I see the other side of the spectrum..

Kids with parents who are on drugs, have alcohol problems, unsuitable living conditions.

Unfortunately because this is pretty common place in certain places in the country, SS do all they can to keep the kids in with the family. Creating care plans, meetings and follow up visits.

What most of would term as unacceptable, is common place in many homes..


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

PawsandPurrs-Bridgnorth said:


> What an absoloute load of rubbish. I hardly ever post but this enraged me so much I had too.
> 
> There are fantastic dads out there who are stopped from seeing their OWN children, not even allowed to speak to them by these selfish stupid women. They would jump at the chance to be loving, caring fathers they once were or have never been allowed to be.
> 
> ...


Call me cynical.

I see far too many single mothers, on benefits with no partner around..

On the other token, you are right in that women can be bloody vindictive and use the child as a weapon. However I don't believe there are that many dads out there who desperately don't want their child aborted..


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Hmmm reading through that it seems to me its actually more a case of the doctors covering their own backs and social services were just following that up. They had to go by the medical advice given by the doctors, the doctors got it wrong by advising such a terrible diet. I think its swaying away from the 'title' of this thread to bring SS into it. My only dealings with SS have been positive, although I am aware they do make mistakes but again not the issue of this thread.


but still their children were taken away and adopted , through no fault of their own. anyway , i didn`t post that up to have a go at SS every contact i`ve had with them have been positive  all the changes werent down to them , they aren`t in a position where they make the rules and i just needed to point that out


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## PawsandPurrs-Bridgnorth (Apr 8, 2010)

> However I don't believe there are that many dads out there who desperately don't want their child aborted..


With respect your wrong.

I live in a small town, within the small town I know of men that this has happened to and were given no say. Men who would have happily given up their life to look after their child given the chance. Ofcourse there are those that dont give a tosh, I am not niave. I do however think you are putting men down far too much.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

PawsandPurrs-Bridgnorth said:


> With respect your wrong.
> 
> I live in a small town, within the small town I know of men that this has happened to and were given no say. Men who would have happily given up their life to look after their child given the chance. Ofcourse there are those that dont give a tosh, I am not niave. I do however think you are putting men down far too much.


I guess we can only go on our own experiences..


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

This is one of few topics where my views have changed a fair whack over the years.. 

As a teen i swore id never have kids, said id be on contraception for eternity.
Then i became pregnant with my eldest after finding out that the majority of Pills available do not agree with my body. As soon as i knew the maternal instinct kicked in and i wouldnt even contemplate an abortion. 

I still was pro-choice for others tho.

Then i saw a (ex)friend using it instead of contraception and was disgusted.. first 1, then the seciond and low and behold a third. didnt (still dont) understand how something so huge could be taken so lightly, same with gender selection i think its sickening.. a product of our throw away culture i suppose.

Yes there is medical reasons, rape and possibly a few others that at the moment i can not think of but for christ sake surely docors alarm bells shoulld be ringing if a woman is having yet another one.. I know im rambling but its one of those subjects 

I also think that 24 weeks is way too late without serious medical reason.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I am pro choice but its a choice I would never wish to make. Do you spend threst of your life, wondering "what if"

If I were to have an abortion I would do it as early as possible as for me as horrible as it sounds, its one thing to take some pills and lose a baby, to actually have it taken out of you...even though either way you are still killing a life. I dont really understand how it takes so long to realise you are pregnant (although I realise in rare cases a woman can still have a period and not experience any signs of pregnancy)

Maybe its just me but even though there is very little chance of me being pregnant I still panic if my period is a few hours late rolleyes although at least then I would be on the ball to detect an early pregnancy) 

Whilst I am pro choice I do not condone having an abortion because the sex of the child does not suit. Whilst when I have kids I would love a girl I am realistic to know that nature doesnt always give us what we want and at the end of the day a healthy baby surely beats anything else if you truly want to be a parent and not just have a doll to dress up. 

As for having an abortion instead of using contraception...I have no words....


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