# Cat doesn't want to know her kittens...



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

A friend's cat had an elective section yesterday - she had reached day 71 with no sign of labour except plenty of milk. Unfortunately despite being a brilliant mother to one of her sister's kittens she doesn't want to know, or didn't when we spoke last night.

Whilst she is quite good at feeding newborn kittens it's a huge strain, and it's nothing like as good for them as getting mothers milk and mothers care.

Any tips for pursuading her Uber Princess to start mothering and feeding them?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The time she takes to settle with them is going to depend on how old she is, whether it's a first litter and what anaesthetic was used. I don't find it at all unusual for a c-section to mean kittens need hand fed for a couple of days. The anaesthetic affects them too and the mum is a touch shocked. One by one they'll start suckling as she gets used to them. I feed the kittens through the day but don't stay up at night. They need to be fed enough to be kept going but also need to be encouraged to feed from mum so as long as they aren't losing weight it doesn't hurt to miss night feeds so they're hungry enough to find their way to a nipple.


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## Bea (May 7, 2010)

I have no idea about cats, but my dog had a c section just before xmas, and didnt want to know the pups when she came home.

But it was probably because she was feeling like crap, poor thing, she was crying herself. I just sat next to the bed and soothed her whilst putting the babies on the teats and making sure they had a good drink. 

Your friend will have to keep a close eye on mum and kittens and make them drink, hopefully mum will come around and love her babies when she feels better, my dog was ok after about 24 hours, accepted them slowly.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It's her first litter and I can't remember how old she is - she's a Siamese (hence an Uber Princess!) and so not as old as some breeds would be. She was hissing and growling at them. 

They are good weights as well - she said the smallest was over 90g. When she waid one was tiny I was expecing her to say 60-70g!

I take your point about feeding just enough that they don't lose weight. Suspect she's not seem them suckling yet otherwise I'd have a phone call or text, and also suspect that she's scared to leave them with mum while mum is so unsettled on seeing them. Will pass that comment on, and the queen was happy enough to let her sister in the room (who has had a litter) in the room and the sister was happy enough to calmly lie down next to them.

Will report back after my friend and I next speak.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> she's a Siamese


I've got a feeling that Siamese (and related breeds) are known to react badly to ketamine so if this was used it may contribute to her mood. It should wear off but it sure isn't fun for the first couple of days I know.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Checked her on FB, found things have improved a bit:

"she is in with her babies and 2 out of 3 are suckling...the smallest one is very weak so I am hand feeding him.....its going to be a long night....again..."

This was 18 hours ago, so about midnight last night. My fingers are tightly crossed for all of them, especially the little one.

Oh yes - and these are Feb 29th babies!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

was it def day 71? As remember you dont count the first 2days of the first mating.

Ad I have had a girl go to day 71, with vet & breeder advice, kittens were kicking, mum was eating and playing, there just wasnt a 'rush' to get them out, that night after I called the vet to bring her in the next day for a quick check she gave birth, that was her first litter also.

So she could have waited a couple more days, also the vet could have given her shots of oxytocin, again I had a girl giving birth and the kitten was stuck, the vet decided instead of rushing in for a c-section, to give her shots of oxytocin, she then gave birth, the first kitten was very large and did die due to the stressful birth, but the other 5 were were great and mum was obviously a stressed out but fed them right away.

So alot of vets do jump straight into c-sections but there can be other ways, obviously unless its a emergancy. Its like a human giving birth, giving birth releases horomones that make you 'love' and 'bond' with your baby, cat mums wash them, stlimulate them, eat the placenta for goodness and again that helps them bond. With c-sections its alot harder, they will be in pain, and sometimes they dont even know whose the kittens are, so it will take some work with them, good luck to mum & babies


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It was day 71 according to the stud owner.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> It was day 71 according to the stud owner.


well that doesnt mean much, I mean the first day they mated, you add 2 to that for the sperm to reach the egg, so she rushed into it for possibly no reason, as did the vet by the sound of it, and as I said in my above post, I wont repeat it all lol


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sorry but I think you are being rather arrogant in assuming the stud owner has no idea what they are talking about. If they were getting their dates wrong an awful lot of queen owners would be worrying about cats being overdue.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sorry but I think you are being rather arrogant in assuming the stud owner has no idea what they are talking about. If they were getting their dates wrong an awful lot of queen owners would be worrying about cats being overdue.


lol I dont go by stud owner dates I tend to go by my own dates, as alot of stud live outside so they arent watched 24/7  She may have not added on the 2days, the girl may have been day 69, its all just 'may' we can only go by what you write on here. The vet did sound rushed, they normally try and get the cat to start the birth herself, again unless we dont know other advice, like she was highly distressed etc  I just gave advice above about overdue cats, up to you what you think, but it was good advice


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sorry but you have absolutely no idea what happened at stud, what happened at the vets, or come to that how many times she saw the vet. You are making assumptions - big assumptions. It's not my cat so I'm not going to go into details, but I can assure you you are assuming incorrectly.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sorry but you have absolutely no idea what happened at stud, what happened at the vets, or come to that how many times she saw the vet. You are making assumptions - big assumptions. It's not my cat so I'm not going to go into details, but I can assure you you are assuming incorrectly.


lol well no I dont know any of that, you came on here for advice? None of us are psyhic and can only go on what you say... then give opinions, this is a forum, thats what happens...


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Glad to read things seem a bit more positive. Very much agree with Havoc in that some queens that have had a section do seem to take a while to come round to the idea of motherhood.

I think whether to section or not at 70+ days gestation is often one of the hardest decisions to make for vet and owner but, at 71 days, I think I might well have opted for the section. Incidentally, Taylorbaby, oxytocin cannot be given unless the cervix is already dilated sufficiently for the queen to expel kittens; I believe in this case the queen had shown no signs of labour at all.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Glad to read things seem a bit more positive. Very much agree with Havoc in that some queens that have had a section do seem to take a while to come round to the idea of motherhood.
> 
> I think whether to section or not at 70+ days gestation is often one of the hardest decisions to make for vet and owner but, at 71 days, I think I might well have opted for the section. Incidentally, Taylorbaby, oxytocin cannot be given unless the cervix is already dilated sufficiently for the queen to expel kittens; I believe in this case the queen had shown no signs of labour at all.


Ah Ok thanks, thats why my vet opted for oxy as she was already giving birth


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner, you are correct there were no signs at all of labour. And I'm absolutely sure you're right it's a very, very hard descision to make. At least with this queen the date (& time) of the first mating was known.

Taylorbaby, yes I asked for advice but not about how to deal with an overdue cat. You gave advice about something I had no control over (not my cat and she had already had the section) but not about the very pressing issue of them needing her to let them suckle, and to mother then.

Anyway, my friend rung tonight and I've just put the phone down. The queen is doing fine with them now and loves them. The queen's sister visits and _maybe _seeing her being calm with the babies helped. It was almost midnight when my friend very gently put the kittens with her and she started to lick them, then they started to suckle.

She is still concerned about the smalled one (90g which isn't tiny for the breed, but apparently scrawny so probably long) and is topping it up. I passed on Havoc's suggestion (thanks) of leaving them for several hours overnight - for one thing she hasn't had a decent nights sleep for about a night, and as Havoc says, you can get in a vicious circle. The kitten doesn't suckle, you top it up, it's not hungry so it doesn't suckle... She normally weighs them each day so she can see if the kitten starts to gain.

I probably won't get an update for a couple of days now, will let you all know how things progress. No photos though - it's 4 hours drive each way so it's always a weekend away to visit her.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Glad to know that things now seem to be going well and hope the little one is okay - I agree 90g at birth is not that small for a Siamese but when there are 6 others competing for milk it can easily get pushed out  Wish your friend well from a fellow Siamese breeder


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think whether to section or not at 70+ days gestation is often one of the hardest decisions to make for vet and owner but, at 71 days, I think I might well have opted for the section


Me too, and I'd be twitching at day 70. Have to say the idea of not beginning the count for two days after 1st mating horrifies me. I do count day 65 as a due date rather than day 63 but always put the dates of mating on the mating cert. It would be completely irresponsible of any stud owner not to start that count from the 1st mating. Imagine if the stud owner addedd a couple of days and so did the queen's owner. That's a recipe for disaster if a queen does go overdue.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> Glad to know that things now seem to be going well and hope the little one is okay - I agree 90g at birth is not that small for a Siamese but when there are 6 others competing for milk it can easily get pushed out  Wish your friend well from a fellow Siamese breeder


Only three babies to fight for the milk and I gather she has lots of it! Agree if there were 5 or 6 other babies it would be a concern.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Only three babies to fight for the milk and I gather she has lots of it! Agree if there were 5 or 6 other babies it might be more of a concern.


Apologies - several of my friends have had litters of 6 or 7 recently and I must have got mixed up with the numbers  
I only have two greedy piglets in my current litter  but was starting to worry at day 69 last week.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

No problem, I think my friend would be going mad if she had had that number of kittens and a mum not looking after them!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

So would I


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

havoc said:


> Me too, and I'd be twitching at day 70. Have to say the idea of not beginning the count for two days after 1st mating horrifies me. I do count day 65 as a due date rather than day 63 but always put the dates of mating on the mating cert. It would be completely irresponsible of any stud owner not to start that count from the 1st mating. Imagine if the stud owner addedd a couple of days and so did the queen's owner. That's a recipe for disaster if a queen does go overdue.


When you stud out you have to write down the days they mated, so that would be the first day, most studs I use dont even know if they mated as they are all outside, so Im given a could have been this day that day, or not at all.

I watch mine and know the exact time and day/tme! They mated :blush: even with people visiting, and you have to give the exact date on the certificate, all the dates they are there for, so you would never add to it, as thats the 'estimated day of arrival' I do it that way as thats how I have been taught by other breeders, and its always worked out dead on the day or a couple of days either way 

I had a girl go to day 71 one, but she could have easily been day 69, if we did the 2day count, and she gave birth that night - first litter, so we didnt want to rush into a c-section, as we new we may have to hand rear, obviously what no one ever wants  But guess all breeders do it differently a way that works for them 

You could help mum by when she lays down placing them on her and feeding her treats, I did this with another girl (the oxy girl), I also had to be stroking her at all times why she fed, as soon as I moved she kumped up screaming, took her 2weeks to settle so had to sleep by her side. could also place a bit of food on your finger and wipe it onto the kittens bum, so mum is attracted to washing/cleaning it  Remember when she feeds her to make the lil un go to the loo before & after!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I expect kittens on day 65 or 66 from the first mating. There is some variance amongst breeds.

Liz


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Nice and clear Liz, and that is exactly how I would calculate due date.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I expect kittens on day 65 or 66 from the first mating


I was once lucky enough to have a girl who popped out the first kitten in a litter on the dot of 66 days and 2 hours from a first mating. It broke my heart to spay her but four litters is my limit. Don't expect I'll ever get such an obliging girl again.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Have to say the idea of not beginning the count for two days after 1st mating horrifies me. I do count day 65 as a due date rather than day 63


I don't really understand the idea of 'two days for sperm to reach egg' and counting the gestation days according to that. I'd always believed (and taken) 65 days as the average gestation period so even 66 days I'd consider overdue though obviously not worryingly so. But I guess however you count the days so long as one considers 65 days the average 'norm' and works from there, it doesn't matter too much... i.e. 63 days plus two for 'sperm to reach egg' you still arrive at 65 

Hindsight is a glorious thing and a crystal ball would be even better but I feel that the one or two girls of mine who have gone past 70 days and then had a section would never have gone into labour naturally.. and even then, on both occasions one was a complete disaster, sadly, and the other only just in the nick of time for some of the kittens, leaving me wishing we'd intervened sooner.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> most studs I use dont even know if they mated as they are all outside, so Im given a could have been this day that day, or not at all


Now that really *would* horrify me! I'd be most peeved.. to put it mildly.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Quick update: sadly the smallest one died in the night, but the other two are looking good at present and putting weight on. Mum has also moved them! They are perfectly safe and warm where they are, so my friend is letting the Uber Mother (former Uber Princess) have her own way. Oddly enough there's nothing unusual about that...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Shame to have lost the little one  but glad to hear the others are doing well.
Ha ha - my Uber Princesses usually get their own way here too


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