# Bengal Cats Breeding Quality



## Uniquepets (Jun 30, 2014)

I have been interested in starting my own breeding program with Bengal Cats... The dream was to breed towards White Bellied Bengals but been told that it can take years and a lot of space required to breed for White bellies. So I have decided to put on hold buying a white bellied Bengal for breeding until I have established a suitable line of my own.

So I have looked at other Bengals with breeding potential and contacted a few breeders the cheapest was around £800 and the dearest was around £1,200 but for the same kittens to not have breeding privileges they are between £500 and £700 (for the same kittens) Why do breeders charge so much more for breeding rights? That is the one part that doesn't seem right to me. If the cat is only worth £500 as a pet then to be shown/bred it should only be £500 and if the cat is worth over 1k then surely as a pet it should still be worth 1k?

Why do breeders do this? It's actually quite confusing and has put me off so many Bengal breeders that I have contacted. As am not sure of their true intentions.

I am willing to spend around £700 - £900 ideally for a good quality female that could have the potential to be shown and bred but I am not willing to spend that money when I can get the same cat for much cheaper without the breeding rights.

No wonder there are so many backyard Bengal breeders on Preloved and Gumtree that sell them for £300 and below without papers, as this high pricing malarkey for a breeding cat makes it difficult for people to be willing to spend so much for a piece of paper. The only reason I don't want to go to a the breeders without papers as I hope to maybe show and to help have a small input to improve the breed for future generations. Without papers my role would be useless and I would be breeding just because I can.

So basically my question is... why do people charge different prices for the same kitten?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Personally I would sell a girl for breeding for the same price as a pet kitten, but only to someone I know well, or (possibly) is a good friend of a good & trusted friend.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Uniquepets said:


> So basically my question is... why do people charge different prices for the same kitten?


I wouldn't let the question bother you overly. Some do, some don't. For those that do i suspect there are all manner of reasons for WHY they feel justified in doing so. If you aren't prepared to 'pay the premium' (and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your feeling that you shouldn't have or don't want to) then search out a breeder who doesn't. Though I know little about Bengals I do suspect though that this is a culture within the breed. Ultimately, once you are actually breeding, the extra money is going to feel like pocket change in relation to all your other expenses.


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## Uniquepets (Jun 30, 2014)

It might just be because am new to the idea of looking at the breeding side of cats... I have only ever in the past looked at the "pet price" on ads and never looked at the "Inbox or call for breeding price" when reading ads that I have been oblivious for years of the difference in prices. 

I am quite early in my research before I actually buy my kitten. So reading about all the different genetics and health tests that breeders do that I have only this week actually began looking at prices of the cats lol 

Thankyou for your replies and I guess it is just something I have to accept if I am to take breeding seriously. Guess the extra price, weans out those of us who want to put all our effort from those who wish to make a quick buck


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Have you shown a Bengal yet? If not a show neuter is a good place to start, and you will get to know other Bengal breeders.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I actually find parts of this post quite insulting. Make a quick buck? If you think that's what good breeders do, then you're in for a very rude awakening. Someone once very aptly said that the only way to make a small fortune from breeding is to have a big one in the bank before you start!

I charge extra for my breeding girls. Why? Because when you have a breeding girl, you're also going to get/need a lot more support from me than if you bought a pet. I'm responsible for helping you with every facet of that cat's life that you ask me about, and while I do this for pets as well, pets don't need mentoring. They don't need teaching and emparting years of experience. They don't need introductions to studs, help with showing, help with birthing... The list goes on and on. Some breeders will even replace a breeding cat at little or no cost to the owner if they for whatever reason fail to breed.

So there are many reasons for adding extra cost to a breeding cat. I'd actually be quite wary of anyone who didn't, as it's such a rarity that I'd be wondering why.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_So there are many reasons for adding extra cost to a breeding cat. I'd actually be quite wary of anyone who didn't, as it's such a rarity that I'd be wondering why._
I rather resent the implication that those of us prepared to put in the time with novices for nothing more than a love of and passion for the breed should somehow be considered suspect. What exactly is it you'd be wondering about?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

The lady who owns the boys I use doesn't charge any more for breeding girls - I bought my Pasha from her. She has always been a great help with showing and breeding and is immensely supportive.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

you've made me think Havoc. I'm not entirely sure. I guess I'd be wary if they were letting lots go on the active, or letting them go to just anyone, but then that's a BYB, not a good breeder.

Hmmmm, that one needs some pondering.

Thank you for giving me food for thought!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Shame we can't still 'thank' for posts rather than just like them because I'd definitely have thanked you for that reply


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

Perhaps it started just to put off BYBs? If so - go for it guys - charge the earth!! In fact - charge two earths and a couple of neptunes as well!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Not sure why you'd need loads of space to breed whited belly cats? The breeders I know who endever to breed whited don't have an issue maintaining a regular sized cattery. 

Here it's normal to charge 2-4 times more for breeding cats, show neuters tend to go at pet price.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The simple answer as to why some breeders charge more is because they can, because people will pay it. When there was no such thing as an active register it didn't (couldn't) happen. Bengals in particular were viewed as a 'money breed' and I don't think it's done them any favours. I have no issue with breeders recouping some of their costs, however, the* last *consideration for me when letting a kitten go for breeding would be the depth of the buyer's pockets. I'd rather give the kitten to the right person than sell it to the wrong one.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm more or less with havoc. However breeding can be an expensive business. I'm not talking about buying a female, but at the least for a litter there are stud fees, vaccination / worm / chip / neuter for the kittens and registration fees to pay and if you only end up with a couple of kittens you will struggle to cover those costs. Also kittens & nursing queens consume vast amounts of food & litter, you might have a long journey to the stud twice over (take & collect), some queens don't take with some studs so you have a return (2 more trips) and then a trip to another stud. Sticky eyes in kittens are in my experience very common and need treating, the queen might need a section... Someone who struggles to buy a breeding female at pet price will almost certainly struggle with the costs of raising a litter.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ Someone who struggles to buy a breeding female at pet price will almost certainly struggle with the costs of raising a litter._
I know what you mean which is why I pointedly said I don't have an issue with breeders recouping some of their costs. Having the money to spend over the odds for a breeding animal doesn't mean someone is going to be a good and ethical breeder though and if their primary aim is to recoup their costs and make plenty more then problems arise. As it happens Bengals are the very breed where the worst of this sort of spiral happened and I find it sad. I know very good breeders who went into Bengals and came out again because they feared for their reputation, so bad had the situation become.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

If someone is going to back yard breed then they will, and get a kitten without any papers at all, to sell offspring at nearly registered kitten prices, but without the vaccinations, microchipping and lifetime support offered by proper breeders. You see it all the time, " Pedigree kittens, no papers, hence price". Well if a 13 week kitten is £450/£500, and you can get a smaller, cuter 8 week old for "only" £300, that's a bargain, right? Not everyone looking for a kitten looks past the headline advertised price. Charging a fortune for breeding cats puts off genuine people who haven't got bottomless pockets. I'd much rather give away to a good friend whom I trusted, and maybe have something back in future a few years down the line. The only active I have ever sold I only charged a very small amount extra for, and by the time I'd had extra vaccines ( rabies), vet exams, fitness to travel certificates, found and booked her a B and B, collected her and run her around, including treating her to a proper English fish and chip supper, I made a bit less than I would have done selling a pet. And I gasped to hear her travel costs to come over in person to collect her cat. But we'd been in contact a very long time by the time I had something suitable, and meeting her felt like seeing an old friend. When I got my first breeding queen I wasn't charged more than pet price, but the cross examination made me feel like I'd been interviewed by the Spanish Inquisition. If someone wants to charge a bit less for pet only quality kittens ( which is the other way of looking at them charging more for breeding cats), that seems fair, but some are asking, as has been said, up to 4 x pet price for a breeding cat, which does seem excessive. The other problem with charging so much more is it could encourage a type of back yard breeding but with registered breeding cats, so if the market were to accept prices in excess of £1000 for an active kitten, an unscrupulous breeder could charge £800 per kitten for every kitten in the litter, and they'd be snapped up as a bargain by newbie breeders who didn't know what to look out for.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think it can (in certain circumstances) encourage backyard breeding of the worst kind. It doesn't always, it is the norm to charge more in many breeds, not all breeders who charge more are bad - it just can sometimes and the breed which is the subject of this thread is an example. A few years ago it seemed every notice board, every ad site, every newsagent's window was crammed with ads for Bengal kittens and I felt for the true enthusiast breeders.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> If someone is going to back yard breed then they will, and get a kitten without any papers at all, to sell offspring at nearly registered kitten prices, but without the vaccinations, microchipping and lifetime support offered by proper breeders.
> <snip>


This is exactly why my kittens are neutered before they leave. I can't stop them being a BYB, I can stop my kittens ending up with a BYB. I've had a couple of conversations with people who wanted a girl and put the phone down as soon as I said she would be spayed before she left me.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> This is exactly why my kittens are neutered before they leave. I can't stop them being a BYB, I can stop my kittens ending up with a BYB. I've had a couple of conversations with people who wanted a girl and put the phone down as soon as I said she would be spayed before she left me.


I think we're at cross wires (again!). Just as some breeders do early neuter and some don't, some owners want their kittens to have surgery at a very young age and some don't. I wouldn't automatically assume someone who doesn't want their kitten neutered before homing is a bad person planning on backyard breeding, they might think YOU an unsuitable breeder for their future kitten. Just a thought!

The discussion was in the context of the price hike between breeding and pet quality kittens. I was suggesting that having a big price difference didn't put off backyard breeders for the following reasons:

1) They could get a pet only kitten and breed her to produce unregistered kittens (they would of course have to use an unregistered or pet only stud too) or

2) They could bite the bullet and pay the asking price for a breeding cat, then register all her kittens as active and take advantage of the difference in price between active and non active kittens. So in some ways, a big price difference could ENCOURAGE backyard breeding, by people who took advantage of the high price for active kittens but didn't care about quality.

Yes, early neutering does stop those individual cats being bred from at all, but it doesn't stop backyard breeding as a whole. I prefer to get to know owners and make individual assessments of their suitability. After all, if you've only stopped your kitten being bred from by physically cutting out her reproductive organs, how much trust do you place in that owner to care for her throughout a lifetime of ups and downs? I'd rather keep a kitten longer and spend time getting the perfect home for that individual personality than early neuter to stop the wrong people breeding her.


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## Uniquepets (Jun 30, 2014)

well didn't this become a debate and a half lol Though I agree with many of your comments about trying to wean out certain types of people. I just feel charging £500 for a kitten at pet price then saying if you wish her to be breeding material, she will be £1,200. I also understand the breeder who said she/he charges extra to cover costs of future advice.

I wouldn't mind paying so much if I knew that as a pet I would still be paying £1,200.

Personally for me, it feels like there is no excuse for such a high price increase and I believe it would be better to spay pet kittens that are sold but sold at the same price as breeding. 

Also I know that some dog breeders have wrote up contracts with others... such as if the animal bought fails to be fertile etc then they will pay back the extra cost or offer a new puppy instead. Do many cat breeders do contracts too?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> I think we're at cross wires (again!). Just as some breeders do early neuter and some don't, some owners want their kittens to have surgery at a very young age and some don't. I wouldn't automatically assume someone who doesn't want their kitten neutered before homing is a bad person planning on backyard breeding, they might think YOU an unsuitable breeder for their future kitten. Just a thought!
> <snip>


The people concerned were not willing to discuss the issue - the phone went down in seconds. If they were genuinely concerned about the kitten's welfare I would have thought they might discuss the pros of 'early neutering'. Normally the reaction is 'great, I don't have to worry about that'.

I know some people disapprove of early neutering though I can't find any evidence it's bad for kittens in the short or the long run. It's been done for years in some other countries, so the lack of evidence won't be because it's a brand new procedure.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lots of cat breeders do do contracts. I don't - once the paragraphs to do with breeding etc. are removed (not needed as the kittens go already neutered) there is very little left in the ones I've seen in the UK, and since I don't think it can be policed I see no point in having one. Some US breeders seem to have very long & complicated contracts, maybe they can enforce them.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> <snip>
> Yes, early neutering does stop those individual cats being bred from at all, but it doesn't stop backyard breeding as a whole. I prefer to get to know owners and make individual assessments of their suitability. After all, if you've only stopped your kitten being bred from by physically cutting out her reproductive organs, how much trust do you place in that owner to care for her throughout a lifetime of ups and downs? I'd rather keep a kitten longer and spend time getting the perfect home for that individual personality than early neuter to stop the wrong people breeding her.


Of course neutering my kittens doesn't stop BYBing in general, but it means my kittens are not contributing to it. Just like I'm sure you don't want your children becoming teenage parents. You can't prevent it 100%, you can do your best to make sure your children don't make babies.

How can I trust any owner through a lifetime of ups & downs? I can't. Neither can you unless you have God-like powers.

I choose the homes as best I can, but no-one can get it 100% right.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Uniquepets said:


> I just feel charging £500 for a kitten at pet price then saying if you wish her to be breeding material, she will be £1,200. I also understand the breeder who said she/he charges extra to cover costs of future advice.
> 
> I wouldn't mind paying so much if I knew that as a pet I would still be paying £1,200.
> 
> Personally for me, it feels like there is no excuse for such a high price increase and I believe it would be better to spay pet kittens that are sold but sold at the same price as breeding.


When you start to think about breeding cats I think you have to step away from the issue of cost of purchase otherwise you are going to be bitterly disappointed. In the two breeds I work with it is usual to charge more for a breeding cat than for a pet, and studs are the most expensive to buy. I suspect this is more due to wanting to only have people who are genuinely serious take on a breeding cat more than anything else to be honest. It is also something that has been going on for years (longer than I've been breeding), it isn't a recent thing. As mentioned before, there may be some breeders who don't charge more but if you are really serious about buying a cat to start breeding I would be more concerned with the quality of the cat and its pedigree than how much that cat costs.



Uniquepets said:


> Also I know that some dog breeders have wrote up contracts with others... such as if the animal bought fails to be fertile etc then they will pay back the extra cost or offer a new puppy instead. Do many cat breeders do contracts too?


Every breeder I know has a contract for the new owner to sign whether they are a pet owner or a breeder. I haven't heard of offering back the difference in price or a new kitten in the case of an infertile animal (some breeders may do). Really you should look on everything you do in breeding as taking on risk. For example the stud I bought in last year has just been diagnosed with hip dysplasia so cannot be bred from. If you are not prepared to take that risk then breeding probably isn't for you.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Of course neutering my kittens doesn't stop BYBing in general, but it means my kittens are not contributing to it.


Agree, I know for sure my kittens will not end up in a byb situation.

Most of my brought in cats do have contracts regarding fertility, and my pet kittens leave with a contract. You'd have to have the discussion with your chosen breeder as it does vary greatly.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I personally have never charged more for an active girl (never sold a boy for stud) but then kittens I have sold on active have been to breeders I know personally and trust as there are certain things I expect from a fellow breeder such as not keeping a cat in a cage. I certainly wouldn't advertise a kitten on the 'active' register nor would I ever purchase one that way. It does seem sometimes that some breeders will use the ability to bump up the return on some kittens selling them for breeding, I have seen whole litters advertised as being able to be actively registered. In the same way some also do for 'show kittens'. The reality is no-one can guarantee that a kitten would either successfully breed or be a champion at a show so why charge more? In terms of buying a breeding girl my last two girls I paid around £150 extra for the breeding rights and they did come with contracts that if no kittens were produced in 3 years another kitten would be provided or the cost refunded. For the majority of the others they were from breeders I trusted and knew and no additional money was charged, including for my stud boy. Often contracts do contain clauses around the offspring such as not being able to sell a male kitten as a stud or not being able to sell (only keep yourself) a queen from a litter for two or three years.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

@chloe1975 you have mentioned the main reasons I charge the same for all my kittens regardless of if they seem to have show potential or (if I ever sell a girl on the active) breeding. I can't guarantee that they will make the grade, I would expect that anyone I sell a show or breeding kitten will regard them as pets first and foremost, to keep them as pets (so not outside in a cattery) and to only rehome if necessary for the sake of their feline household.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Some US breeders seem to have very long & complicated contracts, maybe they can enforce them._
Where it's common for kittens to be bought and shipped sight unseen there is need for detailed contracts. It becomes very much a business transaction, when does ownership actually change hands, who is responsible if something happens in transit etc. I think in the UK breeders picked up on this US practice and most that I've seen here are just a list of demands and instructions which can't be enforced.


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## Uniquepets (Jun 30, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> Every breeder I know has a contract for the new owner to sign whether they are a pet owner or a breeder. I haven't heard of offering back the difference in price or a new kitten in the case of an infertile animal (some breeders may do). Really you should look on everything you do in breeding as taking on risk. For example the stud I bought in last year has just been diagnosed with hip dysplasia so cannot be bred from. If you are not prepared to take that risk then breeding probably isn't for you.


I would never give up a cat that couldn't have kittens. I was just curious about contracts but if I was gonna spend extra for breeding rights then I would look at a breeder that would have it writing that, if I can't breed the said cat then I would be able to ask for the extra money I paid back (so i would only be paying for a pet). I agree with risks but not when I am paying so much extra, to have the rights x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_if I was gonna spend extra for breeding rights then I would look at a breeder that would have it writing that, if I can't breed the said cat then I would be able to ask for the extra money I paid back (so i would only be paying for a pet)._
I have no idea how I'd deal with such a request. How would you prove a cat which didn't get pregnant was the fault of the breeder? What if it was the result of a low grade uterine infection - which party can prove it originated on the other's watch? Why should the breeder reimburse the buyer if it can't be shown to be their fault? It's a minefield


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Uniquepets said:


> if I was gonna spend extra for breeding rights then I would look at a breeder that would have it writing that, if I can't breed the said cat then I would be able to ask for the extra money I paid back (so i would only be paying for a pet). I agree with risks but not when I am paying so much extra, to have the rights x


I truly don't mean to sound blunt or unkind but you are really going to have to re-think that notion because it isn't going to happen for so many reasons!


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

Uniquepets said:


> I would never give up a cat that couldn't have kittens. I was just curious about contracts but if I was gonna spend extra for breeding rights then I would look at a breeder that would have it writing that, if I can't breed the said cat then I would be able to ask for the extra money I paid back (so i would only be paying for a pet). I agree with risks but not when I am paying so much extra, to have the rights x


But surely you are buying your girl as a pet first and foremost? The ability for her to give you kittens is a bonus. If she can't produce kittens, for example, she goes out of call when with a stud because she's shy then are you going to look at her less favourably because she's 'faulty'


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Uniquepets said:


> if I was gonna spend extra for breeding rights then I would look at a breeder that would have it writing that, if I can't breed the said cat then I would be able to ask for the extra money I paid back (so i would only be paying for a pet). I agree with risks but not when I am paying so much extra, to have the rights x


Hmmm ..... As I mentioned I've recently had my stud diagnosed with hip displaysia so he must be neutered. Basically he is unable to fulfil the purpose for which I bought him, to sire kittens because it is a genetic fault able to be passed on. But I wouldn't dream of going back to the breeder and requesting money back, after all, how would she have known? A few years ago I had a queen I purchased who was infertile, again I didn't go back to the breeder asking for a refund.

They are living creatures, it happens and you just have to accept your lot. I think you may need to re-evaluate your outlook, if you are not prepared to lose a few hundred pounds on a breeding cat then you certainly won't like losing all the money you will to your vet over the weeks, months, years to come while you are breeding cats.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

daisysmama said:


> But surely you are buying your girl as a pet first and foremost? The ability for her to give you kittens is a bonus. If she can't produce kittens, for example, she goes out of call when with a stud because she's shy then are you going to look at her less favourably because she's 'faulty'


100% agree! Of course you buy or keep something you THINK will be producing nice kittens, but if they don't they don't. My foundation queen was brilliant, having kittens like falling off a log as they say, plus midwifes other cats' kittens now she's neutered. One of her daughters was again a brilliant mum, one hated every second. A granddaughter decided she would so much rather be a farm cat than indoors, so that was that. I will not keep unhappy cats in enclosures for the sake of a breeding line. One queen I bought in aborted twice with 2 different studs, was neutered and then went on to develop kidney disease and was finally PTS after a stroke. You just have to take the hit. I wouldn't dream of rehoming my queens if they can't produce offspring, or when they are retired, they are part of the family with all their quirks. After all, we expect our kittens to have "forever homes", surely their mothers, who we've sat up with throughout the long nights, deserve the same? I'm fully expecting and hoping for another 10 years with my foundation girl, she will only cost me money in that time, and will be worth every penny spent on her for the love she gives in return.


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