# Split personality dogs



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I have finally realised this is what Oscar has 

What infuriates me most about Oscar is that when he is on top form he is amazing and i can see every last drop of blood sweat and tears i have put into him shining through but then like a switch he just turns into a bonkers, ill mannered, ignorant whatsit who looks like he has been let out on "day release".

Anyone else got one of these ? 

Where did i go wrong ? :cryin:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LOL, I was saying something similar about Roxy earlier. At home she is so obedient, it's Toby who is the naughty one. 

Earlier today we went out to collect eggs from the chickens. She came in to the enclosure, she sat & waited despite the chickens running round & even the odd one trying to peck her! She then carried the basket of eggs back to the house - she looked like such the perfect, well trained dog whio is so attentive.


Outside though ......


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, I was saying something similar about Roxy earlier. At home she is so obedient, it's Toby who is the naughty one.
> 
> Earlier today we went out to collect eggs from the chickens. She came in to the enclosure, she sat & waited despite the chickens running round & even the odd one trying to peck her! She then carried the basket of eggs back to the house - she looked like such the perfect, well trained dog whio is so attentive.
> 
> Outside though ......


Sometimes i feel a total fraud when i am training and walk Oscar round the park glued to my leg offlead, make him sit, wait, catch up all with hand signals. He looks like the "perfect" dog and people often stop and watch or pass comment and i smile politely and say things like "Oooo well he isnt "always" this well behaved" and they look at me like i am lieing 

Then other times i look like a mad woman trying to extract him from the scrub whilst swearing quite alot because he has buggered off for half an hour and i am fed up of waiting.

Caught him out yesterday though, he had his nose so far down a rabbit hole he didn't see me coming :001_tt2:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I was walking Roxy along the river bank the other day. we were alos doing some training exercises - recalls, whistle sits, down at a distance, etc & she was amazing. 

I didn't realise that an elderly couple on the oppositte bank had seen us until we bumped in to them qwhen we returned to the car. They commented on how well behaved Roxy was & how obedient she was ...... LOL, if only they knew!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I was walking Roxy along the river bank the other day. we were alos doing some training exercises - recalls, whistle sits, down at a distance, etc & she was amazing.
> 
> I didn't realise that an elderly couple on the oppositte bank had seen us until we bumped in to them qwhen we returned to the car. They commented on how well behaved Roxy was & how obedient she was ...... LOL, if only they knew!!!


I know what you mean 

Saying that in the country park most people just think i am the mad woman who walks around with a lead and no dog ut:


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have finally realised this is what Oscar has
> 
> What infuriates me most about Oscar is that when he is on top form he is amazing and i can see every last drop of blood sweat and tears i have put into him shining through but then like a switch he just turns into a bonkers, ill mannered, ignorant whatsit who looks like he has been let out on "day release".
> 
> ...


Does the 'switch' usually happen when he sees or smells rabbits or pheasants, or other furry and feathery creatures?


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

Took Merlin to his first training today (I know it was his first day but...)

He cried for about 10 minutes and I thought it was unusual, then he tried to do a poo... got him outside in time though. :blushing:

Then he wouldn't do anything that he is _brilliant_ at, when home. We got there in the end, but he decided tonight would be the night he would hate his harness even though he has been fine with it on every walk we've taken him on.

He then decided he also no longer liked his dap collar and walked everywhere with a limp as he was trying to get it off!

I know it's his first time, but he's been so good at home and on walks... I wonder if he'll be like this when he grows up!


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Rainybow, We've all got one, if anyone says their dog doesn't have his silly moments then they're kiddiing themselves, my lads are well enough behaved for the greater part of the time, but they are still young and on occasion they get that mood about them that you know means that any training session will just be a waste of time, ending up with nothing but frustration for you. I just leave which ever one of them that's having a silly to his own devices untill he gets fed up with being ignored.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have finally realised this is what Oscar has
> 
> What infuriates me most about Oscar is that when he is on top form he is amazing and i can see every last drop of blood sweat and tears i have put into him shining through but then like a switch he just turns into a bonkers, ill mannered, ignorant whatsit who looks like he has been let out on "day release".
> 
> ...


My Dalmatian is well named ODDBALL because he really is one, he is either the most amazing well behaved little star or a complete and utter pillock 
Thankfully 99'9% of the time he is an an absolute star and the pillock stays hidden


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## Mophie (Sep 20, 2011)

I have one of those but mine is reversed as a general rule he's a pain in the bum and mental but 5% of the time he's an angel I have no idea when the switch happens I think it's when I have a pocket full of frankfurter.


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

I have an upstairs/downstairs dog by which I mean Rio will behave perfectly in bottom half of the house but sometimes turns into a pita in the top half. Honestly its like the first few steps of the stairs are her switch some days! She will do all her tricks and actually listen in the sitting room but will do constant zoomies and play nip in my bedroom. She sleeps in the bedroom every night so I've no idea what gets her excited on her off days. We are working on obedience at the top of the stairs atm since she nearly tripped me up and sent me down them a few weeks ago.. ah dogs, don't ya just love em!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I think this thread shows the importance of things like proofing and how dogs don't generalise well. Just a small change in context can make them into 'different dogs'. I think it's to do with arousal levels generally and a lack of generalisation to different situations. Think more biological and involuntary than the dogs doing things because they are 'thinking' things through etc. You'll find your approach becomes a lot more sympathetic...well, most of the time


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

All mine have their 'moments'.
Ijust wish they didn't all have to have them at the same time

Met a 10 week old Cocker bitch yesterday, she was stunning but a right little madam already:w00t:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> Does the 'switch' usually happen when he sees or smells rabbits or pheasants, or other furry and feathery creatures?


Spot on :thumbup1:


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Spot on :thumbup1:


This is quite a good article with some very valid points. How do I stop my dog chasing?  David Ryan CCAB

One of my springers had a habit of going awol in the middle of a training session when she was young. She is a very bright dog and I made the mistake of mentally pushing her too hard occasionally during training and it was her way of relieving the pressure. Once I learned where exactly her threshold was, she stopped it completely. I think the same applies if the training session is too boring or repetitive. Just something to keep in mind. :thumbup1:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> This is quite a good article with some very valid points. How do I stop my dog chasing?  David Ryan CCAB
> 
> One of my springers had a habit of going awol in the middle of a training session when she was young. She is a very bright dog and I made the mistake of mentally pushing her too hard occasionally during training and it was her way of relieving the pressure. Once I learned where exactly her threshold was, she stopped it completely. I think the same applies if the training session is too boring or repetitive. Just something to keep in mind. :thumbup1:


That does make sense in a way, because he isn't reliable enough off lead he doesn't get off lead every day and it is a bit like he just can't help himself. I can be 3 ft away from him and he will still ignore me which under any other circumstance just wouldn't happen.

Thanks for the link


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> I think this thread shows the importance of things like proofing and how dogs don't generalise well. Just a small change in context can make them into 'different dogs'. I think it's to do with arousal levels generally and a lack of generalisation to different situations. Think more biological and involuntary than the dogs doing things because they are 'thinking' things through etc. You'll find your approach becomes a lot more sympathetic...well, most of the time


Tbh I've done little training with Roxy regarding not chasing the chickens & yet she doesn't, whereas outside, on walks, my main training involves re-directing chases, recalls, whistle stops, etc yet my success rate is nothing like that at home.

I definitely think her state of arousal is *so *much more heightened during a walk, we are getting there but it's slow progress!


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> That does make sense in a way, because he isn't reliable enough off lead he doesn't get off lead every day and it is a bit like he just can't help himself. I can be 3 ft away from him and he will still ignore me which under any other circumstance just wouldn't happen.
> 
> Thanks for the link


Have you trained the stop whistle and does he like retrieving?

If yes, then you can use that to teach him an instant sit to a thrown dummy or a tennis ball rolled straight past his nose. It is the first step to teaching a working spaniel to sit to flush.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Tbh I've done little training with Roxy regarding not chasing the chickens & yet she doesn't, whereas outside, on walks, my main training involves re-directing chases, recalls, whistle stops, etc yet my success rate is nothing like that at home.
> 
> I definitely think her state of arousal is *so *much more heightened during a walk, we are getting there but it's slow progress!


Did you read that link posted Cleo, very interesting and i think you will relate to it as much as i did.

Funny because i had worked most of it out, understanding Oscar has a physical "need" to chase rather than him just being downright disobedient and the whole wierd insistance of a game of ball on the beach but no where else makes sense now (frustration at not being able to chase the bunnies in his normal environment)

Think i can have a look at the training idea utilising this "urge" he has to chase a ball occasionally as he obviously enjoys it under the right circumstances so i might be able to "grow" that


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Did you read that link posted Cleo, very interesting and i think you will relate to it as much as i did.
> 
> Funny because i had worked most of it out, understanding Oscar has a physical "need" to chase rather than him just being downright disobedient and the whole wierd insistance of a game of ball on the beach but no where else makes sense now (frustration at not being able to chase the bunnies in his normal environment)
> 
> Think i can have a look at the training idea utilising this "urge" he has to chase a ball occasionally as he obviously enjoys it under the right circumstances so i might be able to "grow" that


Oh yes, & i have the book as well - very interesting & makes alot of good points regarding why dogs chase. I was going to try & attend one of his seminars last year but unfortunately it was just too far away.

With Roxy, I understand why she chases, how rewarding it is, etc so need to re-direct it rather than stop this - which is what I'm trying to do. I don't think Roxy could stop chasing, some dogs I realise don't get such a buzz out of chasing but Roxy does. I presume with Oscar it's the scent that does it for him as well. Toby will also seek things out by smell whilst with Roxy it's purely a visual stimulus.

We have made progress, I can recall her from birds now & did from a hare (luck I think!) but this is something we will have to constantly work on


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Did you read that link posted Cleo, very interesting and i think you will relate to it as much as i did.
> 
> Funny because i had worked most of it out, understanding Oscar has a physical "need" to chase rather than him just being downright disobedient and the whole wierd insistance of a game of ball on the beach but no where else makes sense now (frustration at not being able to chase the bunnies in his normal environment)
> 
> Think i can have a look at the training idea utilising this "urge" he has to chase a ball occasionally as he obviously enjoys it under the right circumstances so i might be able to "grow" that


That is the whole point of a spaniel - the urge to hunt and to find and to flush. Without that urge there would be no spaniels in the beating line at shoots or out flushing game for a rough shooter. The art is to curtail that urge to the hunt and flush only and cut off the chasing bit. The reward a spaniel gets out of a good contact flush is enormous even without the chase. But it needs to be trained properly.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> Have you trained the stop whistle and does he like retrieving?
> 
> If yes, then you can use that to teach him an instant sit to a thrown dummy or a tennis ball rolled straight past his nose. It is the first step to teaching a working spaniel to sit to flush.


I think in many ways Oscar has now exceeded my capabilities as a trainer.

He is wierd with retrieving, he will only chase a ball and will bring it back (begrudgingly) when we are at the beach, he will "ask" for a game of ball on the beach but has absolutely no interest in one any other time. Having read that link i think that in the country park where we walk most days he is looking for the thrill of the ultimate chase (bunnies) so the ball becomes obsolete.

His "stop" is pretty weak but probably good enough to build on. He has a decent leave (unless he has zoned out and is on a chase).

In a place of zero distraction (ie garden) i could have him sit and leave a thrown ball then send him to "fetch it" but he wouldn't do that in the park.

We only get to the beach intermittently but i decided that i was going to work on the tennis ball play this summer as he obviously enjoys it and it keeps his mind off the cliffs (he was bombproof on the beach until he spotted ONE rabbit up the cliffs and took off for a 40 minute romp  he has been a bugger there ever since and had to be onlead but i am slowly building him up again having had a winter break from visiting the coast.

The plan is pretty much what that article said in trying to make "beach time" with me pure fun so he isn't looking for the thrill of a run up the cliffs to visit the bunnies 



Cleo38 said:


> Oh yes, & i have the book as well - very interesting & makes alot of good points regarding why dogs chase. I was going to try & attend one of his seminars last year but unfortunately it was just too far away.
> 
> With Roxy, I understand why she chases, how rewarding it is, etc so need to re-direct it rather than stop this - which is what I'm trying to do. I don't think Roxy could stop chasing, some dogs I realise don't get such a buzz out of chasing but Roxy does. I presume with Oscar it's the scent that does it for him as well. Toby will also seek things out by smell whilst with Roxy it's purely a visual stimulus.
> 
> We have made progress, I can recall her from birds now & did from a hare (luck I think!) but this is something we will have to constantly work on


With oscar it is the initial chase and then he basically won't come back until he has flushed an entire section, he is essentially "working" but with zero direction.


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

You need to work on that stop whistle, until it is an automatic reaction which is absolutely instant. :thumbup1: The dog has to stop, sit and face you the moment you blow the whistle. That is your only chance to stop a chase.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

With Roxy, I am trying to implement training within our walks but in different ways so as not to over do certain exercises. I'm also aware that she does she need to 'be a dog' so try not to make our walks a boot camp!

I also have learned that her reactions ourtside are not the same as at home so have lowered my expectation & criteria. we are building on her impulse control outside which is hard work but we are making slow progress. 

Luckily we haven't had an incident (so far!!) where she has bogged off. She chased a muntjac deer for a few seconds before she lost sight of it (in a wooded area) & came back (although hyped up) almost immediately. 

If I can gain her attention in the intial split second of seeing an animal then I have a good chace of recalling her but if not ....


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> You need to work on that stop whistle, until it is an automatic reaction which is absolutely instant. :thumbup1: The dog has to stop, sit and face you the moment you blow the whistle. That is your only chance to stop a chase.


Thankyou 

I think half the battle was understanding (and accepting) that this is alll part of his instinct but have to admit i am out of my depth knowing how to redirect it into a positive exercise so progress is slow 

Sometimes it's great but other times its a disaster  (hence the split personality  )

It is definately me that is lacking rather than his ability


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> With Roxy, I am trying to implement training within our walks but in different ways so as not to over do certain exercises. I'm also aware that she does she need to 'be a dog' so try not to make our walks a boot camp!
> 
> I also have learned that her reactions ourtside are not the same as at home so have lowered my expectation & criteria. we are building on her impulse control outside which is hard work but we are making slow progress.
> 
> ...


With the deer Oscar would have been gone for at least 30 minutes if that had been him so you are doing better than you think 

He is never far away but once the trigger has been switched he will flush the whole damn area until he is absolutely sure he hasnt missed anything 

Great if he was a working dog not so great if you are waiting in the rain for him to re join your world


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> With the deer Oscar would have been gone for at least 30 minutes if that had been him so you are doing better than you think
> 
> He is never far away but once the trigger has been switched he will flush the whole damn area until he is absolutely sure he hasnt missed anything
> 
> *Great if he was a working dog not so great if you are waiting in the rain for him to re join your world *


LOL, the mad woman with the dog lead & no dog again?!! 

My fear, is that where we live is so flat so if Roxy starts to chase a deer in open fields then she will be gone as she will be able to see the bloody thing run for miles.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, the mad woman with the dog lead & no dog again?!!
> 
> My fear, is that where we live is so flat so if Roxy starts to chase a deer in open fields then she will be gone as she will be able to see the bloody thing run for miles.


My friends dog did that out at Stow cum quy (also very flat). She had to trek 5K across ditches annd over fences to get him back 

It was like that Fenton clip


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> My friends dog did that out at Stow cum quy (also very flat). She had to trek 5K across ditches annd over fences to get him back
> 
> It was like that Fenton clip


The Fenton clip was my worst nightmare being played out .... but possibly Roxy's best walk ever!


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

Great if he was a working dog not so great if you are waiting in the rain for him to re join your world [/QUOTE]

Have you ever had a 1-2-1 lesson with a good gun dog trainer?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> Great if he was a working dog not so great if you are waiting in the rain for him to re join your world


Have you ever had a 1-2-1 lesson with a good gun dog trainer? [/QUOTE]

I havent and i do think that is the only way i will move him forward because it is ME that needs to be taught rather than him and it isnt the sort of thing a "conventional" dog training class will be able to help with


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I found these really beneficial. Even though Roxy isn;t a gun dog breed I found training with someone who works with dogs extremely insightful. We only stopped because Roxy injured her paw then lack of money prevented any further sessions but will go back again.

I also ordered (& use) gun dog training manuals as recommended by shamykebab whcih we are working our way through Gundog Training Books


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

Very good choice of books.


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

This site belongs to the author of The Gundog Club training manuals mentioned above. http://www.thelabradorsite.com/?p=799 
It is full of really good training advice and very interesting articles. I hope Pippa, the author, who I believe is a member of this forum doesn't mind me putting up the link.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

spaniel04 said:


> This site belongs to the author of The Gundog Club training manuals mentioned above. http://www.thelabradorsite.com/?p=799
> It is full of really good training advice and very interesting articles. I hope Pippa, the author, who I believe is a member of this forum doesn't mind me putting up the link.


Saved to my favourites & will have a read later.

One thing I would be interested in is when a dog fails to recall how should I deal with this?

I usually walk up & put them back on their lead, but what if (as in the other day) they ignored my initial recall but then did come back on the second? I'm very aware that I may be training them to ignore the intial call - aaaah!!! Why do I find this so complex when other people dont?!!!


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

I personally only give the command once (a series of pip pip pips on my whistle) and I am ready to get out of my starting blocks just in case i don't get an instant response.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> I personally only give the command once (a series of pip pip pips on my whistle) and I am ready to get out of my starting blocks just in case i don't get an instant response.


My big problem with this is if Oscar ignores a recall i physically can't go and get him because he is too deep in the scrub to extract so he just keeps going until he "decides" he is done.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

spaniel04 said:


> This site belongs to the author of The Gundog Club training manuals mentioned above. http://www.thelabradorsite.com/?p=799
> It is full of really good training advice and very interesting articles. I hope Pippa, the author, who I believe is a member of this forum doesn't mind me putting up the link.


Spured on by your links i did some training today on our walk using the whistle.

I started teaching a stop, sit and face me to one blast (recall has always been 2 but i havent been using it lately because off his failure rate and didnt want to devalue it)

I did a short session at the start (with some ham ), then let him off for a bit in the part of the park he is most responsive in for a bit of a run about, called him in a few tims with the whistle when i knew he would respond and used the single blast when he was "in" which he did well at. Back on lead for rest of walk and did some "find it" with him by planting ham for him to find, then another 5 minutes on the lead with the stop, sit, look a me for some ham on the way home.

He had cracked that by the end of the session which has made me realise he really does have the capacity to learn still so i have contacted my local trainer (courtesy of the Lab site you posted) and will see if i can maybe set up a couple of sessions with him just to show me how to move Oscar on 

Thanks


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

That's great!! Enjoy your lessons. :smile5:


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