# Negative Reinforcement and Negative Punishments



## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

Hi,

I need some clear examples for the terms Negative Reinforcement and Negative Punishments. I understand the terms but I need to describe to non-trainers what this is without making it sound complicated. I also know that negative reinforcement should not ever be used but just want examples. Giving your cat a treat is a clear sign of Positive Reinforcement. Great examples of Not using the litterbox and scratching chair would be helpful. Many thanks


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jinksandchew said:


> Hi,
> 
> I need some clear examples for the terms Negative Reinforcement and Negative Punishments. I understand the terms but I need to describe to non-trainers what this is without making it sound complicated. I also know that negative reinforcement should not ever be used but just want examples. Giving your cat a treat is a clear sign of Positive Reinforcement. Great examples of Not using the litterbox and scratching chair would be helpful. Many thanks


In basic terms, positive refers to adding something, and negative means taking something away. 
Reinforcement and punishment are determined by the subsequent behavior. If the behavior is strengthened it is said to have been reinforced. If the behavior lessens or stops, then it was punished.

Therefore:
Positive reinforcement: Adding something the animal _likes_ to make a behavior stronger. 
Cat sits for a treat, treat is given. Cat offers to sit more reliably and more often. The treat given for sitting is positive reinforcement. 
Negative reinforcement: Removing something the animal _dislikes_ to make a behavior stronger. 
Most often used with horses. You pull on a rein to get the horse to turn, as soon as the horse gives in to the rein, you release the pressure. The pressure goes away to reinforce the behavior of turning in to the rein. 
Positive punishment: Adding something the animal _dislikes_ to reduce a behavior. 
Spray bottle is one you see with cats. Cat claws at the curtains, owner sprays, curtain clawing is reduced or eliminated. 
Negative punishment: Removing something the animal _likes_ to reduce or eliminate a behavior. 
When offered a treat the cat grabs and claws at the hand. Trainer removes hand and treat. Cat learns to not claw at hand or treat will go away.

It's important to remember that it's the subsequent behavior that determines if something is punishing or reinforcing. For example, if a cat jumps on the counter and is sprayed every time but the behavior doesn't lessen or stop, then the spraying is not punishment. It may be unfair and unkind, but in behavioral terms it's not punishment because the cat is still jumping on the counter.

I'm not sure why you would never use negative reinforcement? It's a perfectly valid and useful training technique. In fact all four quadrants are perfectly valid and useful.


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> In basic terms, positive refers to adding something, and negative means taking something away.
> Reinforcement and punishment are determined by the subsequent behavior. If the behavior is strengthened it is said to have been reinforced. If the behavior lessens or stops, then it was punished.
> 
> Therefore:
> ...


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

THis is amazing, thank you so much. Its more for a course I'm doing and I also get asked in my animal shelter volunteer role - I foster kittens. Here is what i think but just not 100% sure i am right.

Not using the litterbox problem - cat peeing in corner of rooms
Positive
Add an extra litter box and or increase the size of the existing and or try another vanity of litter. Reward the cat with treats and praise when they do use the litter box.
Negative (NOT RECOMMENDED) – screaming and chasing her away when you see her toileting outside the box.

Cat Scratching Chair Problem
Positive
Entice them to scratch something else, like a scratching post. To do this, as soon as the cats scratches the post, immediately reward with treats, catnip, interactive play, and petting or grooming. Whichever the cat likes most.

Negative (NOT RECOMMENDED)
Throwing an item close to the cat or screaming at it when you see him scratching the chair


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jinksandchew said:


> THis is amazing, thank you so much. Its more for a course I'm doing and I also get asked in my animal shelter volunteer role - I foster kittens. Here is what i think but just not 100% sure i am right.
> 
> Not using the litterbox problem - cat peeing in corner of rooms
> Positive
> ...


No, not quite. Positive refers to adding something, negative refers to taking something away. Has nothing to do with whether it's pleasant or not. 
You're also confusing management techniques with training behaviors.

Management is adding a second or third litterbox, changing the litter used, changing the type of box. You're managing a behavior here. 
Rewarding a cat for using the litterbox correctly would be positive reinforcement. Screaming and chasing her away from the litterbox would be positive punishment (if it worked to deter the behavior you're trying to stop). But this is again, more management than training.

Same with the scratching post. Providing appropriate scratching items is simply good management. Screaming or throwing things would technically be positive punishment - positive because of the addition of the projectile item, punishment because of the lessening of the behavior of scratching inappropriately. But mostly it's just poor human behavior.


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

WOW - im so confused now. As i thought it was all about the timing. So would negative be: putting aluminium around the chair and putting an unpleasant scent where they are peeing? I've read everywhere never to use negative reinforcement but the above seems ok and not cruel?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jinksandchew said:


> WOW - im so confused now. As i thought it was all about the timing. So would negative be: putting aluminium around the chair and putting an unpleasant scent where they are peeing? I've read everywhere never to use negative reinforcement but the above seems ok and not cruel?


Negative simply refers to removing something. Think of it like a minus sign in math. Negative means subtracting something. You remove it. 
If you want to reinforce a behavior, you remove something the animal dislikes to make the behavior stronger. The animal knows the more he/she does that behavior the less he/she will experience that thing they dislike. 
If you want to punish (lessen) a behavior, you remove something the animal likes. The animal knows if he/she does X then something they like or want goes away.

Where have you read not to use negative reinforcement?


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

Loads of places: Hillspet. Its not letting me post the direct links

"Never shout or scream at a cat and never hit or physically reprimand your cat. It's sometimes said that 'you just need to show them who is boss' or 'rub their noses in it'. This is not true. Cats do not respond well to negative reinforcement and it is a very ineffective way to reprimand your cat. In fact, actions such as this are more likely to make your cat avoid you entirely than correct her behaviour."

Bansfield website
Negative reinforcement does not work when training. Even if you catch your cat with her paws in the cookie jar, she will only act out when you are not around. If you punish the cat after the misdeed was done, she will not put two-and-two together and associate your words with the misconduct. You will also be training her to be suspicious of you and the problem will probably continue. Above all, some cats are naughty just to get attention and the attention, even if it is negative, is a reward in itself. So what can you do? So, are you taking the chair away is negative reinforcement? and covering the corner of rooms is negative reinforcement? That makes no sense to me. And also, im told it is about timing. 

So teaching the cat to walk on the lead
Positive Re-Pull on the leash when your cat tries to run off in a direction you don’t want her to go
Negative Re-when the cat stops pulling, remove the pulling pressure from the leash 

You’re trying to teach your cat to walk on a harness and leash outside. You pull on the leash when your cat tries to run off in a direction you don’t want her to go, but then remove the pulling pressure from the leash (NEGATIVE, since you’re removing the pressure) when your cat stops pulling you in an unwanted direction and walks next to you. Your cat learns that she prefers to walk next to you without the leash pressure (REINFORCEMENT, since walking next to you is repeated). (On the other hand, the pulling that you do would be POSITIVE (because you’re adding pressure), and getting her to stop the behaviour of running away from you would be PUNISHMENT.)


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

another website here:
*Common Cat Training Mistakes*
When training a cat, it's important to know a few basic things about them and how they react to efforts to change their behaviors. Here, we've compiled some of the common mistakes that people make with cat training.
*Using negative reinforcement.* Yelling at, hitting, or otherwise harming or acting roughly toward a cat when they are doing something you don't want them to do doesn't work. The kitty won't understand the message you're trying to send about the behavior, but she will develop fear and stress directed toward you. And cats that are fearful and stressed develop negative behaviors like scratching and urinating inappropriately, so your problems will only increase if you engage in negative reinforcement.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It can be confusing . I would recommend reading How Dogs Learn by Burch and Baily . Although its gives examples about dogs , it can be adjusted to cats.
A lot of pennies dropped for me when I read it.

Also Pam Johnson Bennets books have lots of tips about cat behaviour.

Sometimes cats will scratch in different places , e.g the wall paper and toilet outside the box due to emotional reasons, e.g another cat being outside or smells on the front doormat . Things like using Feliway can be a great help , so dont just look at training but think what can be done to lessen their stress.

Vet checks too are important if a cat is toileting outside the litter tray , or weeing on plastic bags or in the bath . They may have Cystitis .


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@jinksandchew - just to say, I have never yet met a cat who would walk on a harness and leash right next to me.

A cat who constantly pulls on the leash is not going to like being restrained, and IME is not a suitable candidate for leash walking. A cat, because of their independent nature, is very unlikely to learn to walk alongside the owner from being pulled back into line. They are much more likely to sulk, lie down and refuse to move if the leash is pulled on regularly. i.e. it is not a suitable training tool.

"Walking" a cat on a leash is a misnomer. The reality (when it works) is the cat wears a harness with lead attached, owner keeps tight hold of leash, cat ambles around the garden (or safe area) at their leisure, and the owner follows patiently behind. 

A better example would have perhaps been training the cat to wear a harness in the first place.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh wow, well that explains the confusion. Sorry but all of those examples are inaccurate. Of course it's not a good idea to yell hit or be rough with a cat, or any animal for that matter, but that is not negative reinforcement.

Here is a glossary of terms, they're alphabetical, just scroll down to positive and negative reinforcement and punishment.
https://www.clickertraining.com/glossary/17

That site is very helpful for training and management issues also. And accurate  
https://www.clickertraining.com/cat-training?source=navbar

Just to add though, the APO (and even some of the good trainers out there) don't need to know the exact terms to be kind and effective in training. You don't need to know if what you're doing is -P or +R to get a good result while being kind to the animal. As long as you are a good observer, empathetic, and understand basic body language, in the end it doesn't really matter how well you know your science behind it. 
It is helpful IMO to understand the science well, and it helps you be able to explain to others why something works (or doesn't), but I've yet to meet a dog or cat or horse who cares at all if you know your terms


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

chillminx said:


> @jinksandchew - just to say, I have never yet met a cat who would walk on a harness and leash right next to me.
> 
> A cat who constantly pulls on the leash is not going to like being restrained, and IME is not a suitable candidate for leash walking. A cat, because of their independent nature, is very unlikely to learn to walk alongside the owner from being pulled back into line. They are much more likely to sulk, lie down and refuse to move if the leash is pulled on regularly. i.e. it is not a suitable training tool.
> 
> ...


i understand, just trying to get examples of negative and positive reinforcement and using that as an example.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

chillminx said:


> @jinksandchew - just to say, I have never yet met a cat who would walk on a harness and leash right next to me.
> 
> *A cat who constantly pulls on the leash is not going to like being restrained, and IME is not a suitable candidate for leash walking*.


............nor is the human holding the lead a good candidate to lead walk a cat if they expect to be anything more than a spectator


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Very true @buffie


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

Thank you so much for your time. I've also posted the same question in a huge cat behaviour facebook group and they commented, "never use negative reinforcement" and blocked my post from comments. - I had a look at the websites and i think the penny has dropped.
Cat Scratching Chair - same could be applied to toileting by putting nasty smelling spray
Positive - As soon as the cats scratches the post, immediately reward with treats, catnip, interactive play, and petting or grooming. Whichever the cat likes most.
Negative - Spraying lemon scent of putting aluminium foil to make the experience unpleasant. As soon as the cat scratches she will get instant relief when she jumps off.
Teaching the cat to walk on lead -Positive Reinforcement: Pull on the leash when your cat tries to run off in a direction you don’t want her to go. When she stops pulling give her a treat. Negative Reinforcement, You pull on a leash to get the cat to stop the cat pulling away, as soon as the cat stops, you release the pressure. The pressure goes away to reinforce the behaviour of pulling away
Thanks again.


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> It can be confusing . I would recommend reading How Dogs Learn by Burch and Baily . Although its gives examples about dogs , it can be adjusted to cats.
> A lot of pennies dropped for me when I read it.
> 
> Also Pam Johnson Bennets books have lots of tips about cat behaviour.
> ...


thank you. great idea re: dogs - so much more info that relates to the positive and negative


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jinksandchew said:


> Thank you so much for your time. I've also posted the same question in a huge cat behaviour facebook group and they commented, "never use negative reinforcement" and blocked my post from comments. - I had a look at the websites and i think the penny has dropped.
> Cat Scratching Chair - same could be applied to toileting by putting nasty smelling spray
> Positive - As soon as the cats scratches the post, immediately reward with treats, catnip, interactive play, and petting or grooming. Whichever the cat likes most.
> Negative - Spraying lemon scent of putting aluminium foil to make the experience unpleasant. As soon as the cat scratches she will get instant relief when she jumps off.
> ...


No, not exactly there yet.... 
The animal is the one who determines what is punishing and what is reinforcing. 
And you're still confusing management and training. When you leash a cat you're not really teaching any behaviors, you're simply managing. Preventing her running off. You can desensitize to the leash and harness, and condition a positive association with the leash and harness, but that's not _operant_ conditioning. You're not teaching behaviors there, just getting her used to wearing and moving with a leash and harness.


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

arrrgghhhhh haha. however, i was told my tutor this is correct. eg _it depends on the timing. Pulling on the leash can be both a positive punishment and a negative reinforcement. It is a negative reinforcement when you take away the pressure when the cat isn't pulling. _So although management, i would assume you need to "manage" a situation to get the desired response from a behaviour when it be good or bad? p.s thank you. i will continue to read stuff but you are right, it's not operant learning so i'll do another example. thank you thank you


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jinksandchew said:


> arrrgghhhhh haha. however, i was told my tutor this is correct. eg _it depends on the timing. Pulling on the leash can be both a positive punishment and a negative reinforcement. It is a negative reinforcement when you take away the pressure when the cat isn't pulling. _


More than timing, it is the subject who determines punishment or reinforcement. If the cat doesn't care about the sensation of the leash pulling on them, then you example is neither negative reinforcement nor positive punishment. It's nothing. You have to see how the animal reacts and if the behavior of pulling is lessened.

One way I think about it that helps, is that negative reinforcement and positive punishment rely on having something the subject dislikes that you either add or remove. But it has to be something the cat cares enough to work to avoid for it to work. 
It's also important to remember than punishers loose their strength easily. Animals are great at habituating to annoying stimuli. They tune it out. Especially if there is a greater reward beyond the annoying stimulus. If the cat pulls but gets to a great spot they want to be at, the reward of the spot is going to trump the annoyance of the pulling.


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> More than timing, it is the subject who determines punishment or reinforcement. If the cat doesn't care about the sensation of the leash pulling on them, then you example is neither negative reinforcement nor positive punishment. It's nothing. You have to see how the animal reacts and if the behavior of pulling is lessened.
> 
> One way I think about it that helps, is that negative reinforcement and positive punishment rely on having something the subject dislikes that you either add or remove. But it has to be something the cat cares enough to work to avoid for it to work.
> It's also important to remember than punishers loose their strength easily. Animals are great at habituating to annoying stimuli. They tune it out. Especially if there is a greater reward beyond the annoying stimulus. If the cat pulls but gets to a great spot they want to be at, the reward of the spot is going to trump the annoyance of the pulling.


o.k so here's my last attempt. haha hard work

Stoping Cat from Biting when you walk past.

Positive - when you walk past the cat and he doesn't bite reward him with treats and praise.

Negative - Confuse her by gently pushing towards her and bite. Once she releases his grasp, stay still and ignore her. Hopefully she will soon learn that biting flesh results in an immediate end to the fun.

If im wrong, i need a course that explains things differently as the notes don't give any examples and the research on the internet wrong. thank you again. you truely have helped.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jinksandchew said:


> o.k so here's my last attempt. haha hard work
> 
> Stoping Cat from Biting when you walk past.
> 
> ...


Okay, I think I see where you're going off the track.

Your example starts with *stopping* the cat from biting. 
In operant conditioning, there is no "not" behavior. So you're not teaching the behavior of *not* biting. That's not a behavior. You can't reinforce or punish non behaviors.

You _can_ punish the biting. Biting is a behavior, and remembering that punish means to lessen or extinguish a behavior. So you could use positive punishment which could range from reacting with a surprised yelp, if the cat found that upsetting enough to stop biting, you have successfully used positive punishment. Positive punishment could also range all the way to kicking the cat across the room. Not advocating this, just illustrating that positive punishment does not take in to account the degree to which you add something unpleasant.

Negative punishment would require removing something the cat likes/wants in order to lessen or extinguish the behavior of biting. This would apply to a cat who bites when being petted. Assuming the cat enjoys the petting. If the cat hates the petting and you stop when she bites, you have just reinforced the biting with negative reinforcement because the petting was unpleasant and you removed it when the cat bites.

In order to use positive reinforcement to stop biting, you would have to teach a behavior that is incompatible with biting and reinforce that behavior. If the cat is biting because it's fun to attack feet, you could teach the cat to attack a specific toy instead. Create a cue for attacking that toy, and then whenever you're about to pass by the cat, cue the cat to attack the toy, and reward her for doing so.

Outside of operant conditioning, you can simply apply classical conditioning where you would desensitize and/or counter condition the cat to someone walking past. This would be something like dropping treats on the floor so the cat is too busy eating the treats to take a swipe at the feet. Rinse and repeat and the cat will become counter conditioned to see feet as an opportunity to get treats instead of an opportunity to attack.

But all of this would depend on why the cat is biting, what the cat finds rewarding and punishing, what the owners are able/willing to do, and other factors. So at the end of the day, you work with the animal in front of you, as kindly and effectively as you can, then you go home, reflect, and there you can have conversations with yourself and others about positive and negative reinforcement and punishment.


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

thank you so much. - i got it now - I think. this is the question i needed to answer and i now realise you can't also do . positive and negative reinforcement for one problem only. i've submitted my paper and i tried and hopefully i'll get it right thanks to you. i didn't put the question there as i wanted to try and figure it out myself. and thanks to you i did. sometimes you can't have negative reinforcement without first having positive punishment. i'll let you know how i go. im clearly not the smartest on the planet but i try to do my best for all...especially cats.
*Describe two ways that positive reinforcement could be used to encourage a cat to exhibit a behaviour and two ways that negative reinforcement could be used. *


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

jinksandchew said:


> sometimes you can't have negative reinforcement without first having positive punishment.


This is absolutely correct  And often overlooked part of -R, that in order for there to be the removal of something unpleasant enough that the animal wants it to go away, you have to present that unpleasantness to begin with.

Presenting an aversive stimulus is big caution when it comes to using either -R or +P. Also why those sites you linked earlier talk about cats not responding well to aversives. Their terminology is incorrect, but the idea that often aversives fail is not. 
The reason cats don't respond well to +P or -R is the same reason any animal doesn't. We habituate to annoying, even painful stimuli. If you get a chance, look up Steve White's rules of punishment, it's pretty interesting.

Reinforcements on the other hand, don't tend to lose their value like punishers do. Cats don't get tired of treats and pets and affection. They don't tune out the sound of the cat food can opening. They always come running. 
I'm not one to say never use punishment, it has it's place, but any time you can solve a behavior issue by reinforcing a behavior or using reinforcers to counter condition and build positive associations all the better.

As to your assignment question, I think I would have used something simple like teaching a cat to come when called or sit pretty as opposed to behavior modification which was more the direction you were headed. 
But you got it done at least!


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

you really are the best. i'll read Steve White's rules of punishment definitely. if you have time, have a look my Instagram page jinksandchewie. i foster kittens which is why I did the course so could learn and make sure don't make mistakes for them during their sensitive period. Chewie is my foster failure and i know i did few things wrong with her so wanted to learn how not to in the future. i also think i would like to be a cat behaviourist in the future as well.


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## jinksandchew (Nov 17, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> This is absolutely correct  And often overlooked part of -R, that in order for there to be the removal of something unpleasant enough that the animal wants it to go away, you have to present that unpleasantness to begin with.
> 
> Presenting an aversive stimulus is big caution when it comes to using either -R or +P. Also why those sites you linked earlier talk about cats not responding well to aversives. Their terminology is incorrect, but the idea that often aversives fail is not.
> The reason cats don't respond well to +P or -R is the same reason any animal doesn't. We habituate to annoying, even painful stimuli. If you get a chance, look up Steve White's rules of punishment, it's pretty interesting.
> ...


thank you again, i passed with a credit thanks to you. onto next diploma


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

chillminx said:


> "Walking" a cat on a leash is a misnomer. The reality (when it works) is the cat wears a harness with lead attached, owner keeps tight hold of leash, cat ambles around the garden (or safe area) at their leisure, and the owner follows patiently behind.
> 
> A better example would have perhaps been training the cat to wear a harness in the first place.


I don't want to derail this thread because it's interesting, but I just wanted to say that while mostly this is my experience it is possible to train a cat to actually walk and not just lead the human around. Or at least that's how it is with Darcy. I can make her run next to me and walk next to me. It's dependent on how I hold the lead, and if it is held lightly upwards with me next to her she walks/jogs. I would try and take a video, but right now I don't want to get her hopes up that we're going for a walk when it's cold and dark outside! So if we go out this weekend I will see if I can!

With the other cats, it's absolutely not walking, it's just them ambling and me following and I haven't managed to train them to do anything else. But with Darcy, it's definitely us going out for a walk (or a little jog).


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

That's really interesting @Psygon about how Darcy walks with you!  I've never come across that before! I would love to see her, if you get the chance to video her while on one of the walks.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Just wanted to add, that leash training can teach a cat which area to class as its territory, and if they are ever allowed off the leash, it can help them learn how to stay in their own garden.

When Pixie was little she was harness trained and every time she wanted to go out, we walked her up and down our back garden on a leash. So she learned that is the place which smells familiar. And when she was about 12 months old, we let her off leash and now she nearly always stays in the garden. She panics when she goes over the fence, and heads straight back.

It is NOT fool proof of course, unless the garden is cat proof. But cats CAN be trained by leash walking


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Treaclesmum said:


> Just wanted to add, that leash training can teach a cat which area to class as its territory, and if they are ever allowed off the leash, it can help them learn how to stay in their own garden.
> 
> When Pixie was little she was harness trained and every time she wanted to go out, we walked her up and down our back garden on a leash. So she learned that is the place which smells familiar. And when she was about 12 months old, we let her off leash and now she nearly always stays in the garden. She panics when she goes over the fence, and heads straight back.
> 
> It is NOT fool proof of course, unless the garden is cat proof. But cats CAN be trained by leash walking


That's really interesting 

We had a cat who would come for walks with us on our property. He would not venture far away from the house on his own, but if we were out walking with the dogs, he would come along happily. I think he just felt safer knowing we were there. I wonder if the leash acts in a similar way, letting the cat know *this* is safe, but outside of this area (or away from these people) is not safe.

And yes, cats can be trained to do so much. I hate that they have the reputation of being untrainable because IME cats are as much fun to train as dogs, and respond just as well. Obviously they'll have instincts for different things, and preferences though


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