# Feeding (lamb) kidneys to my cat



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi guys

Can anyone advise me how often it is OK to feed (lamb) kidneys to one of my cats (age 2.5 yrs) who is on a partly home made diet? 

He has rabbit and chicken, occasionally turkey, to which I add 5% chicken heart per meal, plus a calcium supplement once a day. 

Once a week I give him 5% chicken liver with his meal instead of chicken hearts. He is not overly keen on chicken heart so to give him a change I have been giving him lamb kidney twice a week, which he loves 

From research I've done I can't find anything that says giving a healthy adult cat (lamb) kidneys as the offal portion of his meal is not to be recommended. 
Am I right? 

Thanx guys


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I think I asked a similar question of Hobbs not so long ago...
My understanding is that there is nothing in kidney....such as the high vit A in liver...that makes it dangerous to feed in reasonable quantities.
Now, we do all know about the ideal proportion of offal in raw being 5% but I have to say that I probably give mine a fair bit more than that as they REALLY like kidney, especially pig's.
I really would not advise anyone to play fast and loose with the recipe for a balanced diet, but the kidney is often a snack, an extra on top of their regular meals and also we do have to remember that most commercial wet foods, even some of those that we think of as better quality will be made up of a high proportion of offal ( Bozita lists lung as a main ingredient )


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> I really would not advise anyone to play fast and loose with the recipe for a balanced diet, but the kidney is often a snack, an extra on top of their regular meals and a*lso we do have to remember that most commercial wet foods, even some of those that we think of as better quality will be made up of a high proportion of offal* ( Bozita lists lung as a main ingredient )


But the one thing to remember is that manufacturers add a whack of minerals and vitamins to their food to iron out any deficiencies in the food that they are using.

I routinely use kidney as part of the 5% of offal in the raw meal. I also use lamb lung (if you are using something like fortain you then can reduce the amount of fortain you use). Each of those make up 2.5% within my mix.

What calcium supplement are you using Chillminx?

Don't forget that heart can make up more than 5% as it doesn't count as "offal" or organ meat but is part of the muscle meat. I often use about 10% heart.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks for your replies Paddypaws & Hobbs.

Hobbs -- if I give him more than 5% chicken heart unfortunately it results in him having a loose stool next day, and being 'off ' his food. His bowel reacts even more violently to other types of heart (ox, pig, lamb). 

By contrast he tolerates lamb kidney very well. Tolerates chicken livers (once a week) but not lambs' liver. I am sure there is a logical explanation as to why he can tolerate some types of offal and not others, but I have yet to find it

Re: calcium supplement -- tried several different ones, zero success, as 
they had excipients which upset his tum, or smell/taste he could detect when hidden in food, so refused. I take a calcium supplement myself, which must be pure quality due to allergies, so my vet said give cat the one I use 
= Biocare Calcium EAP2. I give 50 mg a day (vet's advice) added to food. Cat has had no problems with this. 

However I do have a question related to this : when giving a calcium supplement to a cat, is it advisable to give magnesium and boron as well?
I asked my vet but she seemed to think calcium on its own is all that's necessary, particularly as my cat does eat some manufactured food (Grau grain free canned once a day). But my understanding was that with all mammals, the calcium supp should be balanced with the other minerals for bones.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

chillminx said:


> Re: calcium supplement -- tried several different ones, zero success, as
> they had excipients which upset his tum, or smell/taste he could detect when hidden in food, so refused. I take a calcium supplement myself, which must be pure quality due to allergies, so my vet said give cat the one I use
> = Biocare Calcium EAP2. I give 50 mg a day (vet's advice) added to food. Cat has had no problems with this.
> 
> ...


Yes, heart can have that laxative effect on some cats but you seem to have found some that he tolerates, which is good.

Re the calcium, I have no knowledge of the product you are using. When you say you give him 50mg a day, is that 50mg of the product or 50mg of calcium? Also, is this "pure" calcium or does it contain other stuff, such as anti-caking agents?

What other products have you tried? I am slightly puzzled by the mentions of added ingredients that he wouldn't tolerate or the smell. Have you tried something like calcium carbonate, finely ground eggshells or even ground beef bones that you can buy? Given the rather big range of calcium supplements for cats who don't chew bone or won't eat minced bone either I would rather use one of those. But then again I don't know your product.

True, bones consist of many more minerals than calcium but you will be hard-pushed to try to recreate the intricacies of the mineral balance in bones with different supplements. That is why you either use ground bone meal or use calcium to at least off-set the rather large phosphorus content in the meat to achieve a 1.2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hobbs -- the calcium supplement is 

50 mg calcium phosphate and ethanolanine phosphate + anticaking agents silicon dioxide and magnesium stearate. 

He is allergic to beef, cereals & soya. I have only found beef bonemeal; if I could find chicken bonemeal I would give that, but it would need to be raw as cooked/heated bonemeal is hard to digest.

Of the calcium for pets I tried, 2 contained soya filler, one contained maize.
The other 2 makes tasted bitter (to me) and he refused them in his food.

Ground eggshell -- I gave him in his food, He ate once and refused it after that. After 6 more attempts I gave up. Tried some of the eggshell myself, it made me feel nauseous soon after eating it. P'raps had same affect on my cat....

I prefer to keep the status quo, having worked hard to get to this stage, where I am getting calcium supplement into him. The stuff I am using is very superior in quality to the pet supplements I tried. Plus it is calcium phosphate, which is the best form for max absorption. OK for a young healthy cat, but if there were kidney problems in his old age then the phosphate form would not be good, and I would switch to citrate or carbonate.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Hey Chillmix, I do appreciate that you don't want to upset the "status quo" now that you think you have found something that works. But I am still very dubious that it is really a good calcium substitute for your purpose (ie. balancing out the phosphorus level in meat with calcium). Could you possibly find out how much calcium is in your product and how much phosphorus? 

For example, the dicalciumphosphate I sometimes use to balance out the calcium/phosphorus content of my mix contains 25% calcium but it also contains 18% phosphorus. Considering that one uses calcium to balance out the already existing high level of phosphorus in the meat/offal I wouldn't be able to use the dicalciumphosphate product on its own to achieve a sensible balance by virtue of it not just containing calcium but also a whack of phosphorus. 

That is why essentially, if you aren't using bones, it is so much easier to calculate how much calcium you need to add to your mix if you use products such as carbonate, citrate or eggshells. 

Once you know that you will know where you can use it as a sensible calcium product. My hunch is that it isn't.


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## cookiemom (Jun 23, 2011)

Chillminx, will he not eat 'bone in' meats?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> > Could you possibly find out how much calcium is in your product and how much phosphorus?
> 
> 
> Thanx Hobbs. I will email the manufacturers and ask them.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

cookiemom said:


> Chillminx, will he not eat 'bone in' meats?


No he refuses to eat raw. I still offer it, but he just looks at it and walks away.

When I first adopted him I had many battles getting him to eat, and he had problems with wheezing and snuffliness because of his allergies. Even now there are still odd days when he won't eat anything, but cries because he is hungry.  I am just grateful to have found a diet that he likes (most of the time) that does not trigger his food allergies.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

cookiemom said:


> Chillminx, will he not eat 'bone in' meats?


No he refuses to eat raw. I am still offering it, but he is never interested, just looks at it and walks away.

When I first adopted him I had battles getting him to eat, and he had problems with wheezing and snuffliness because of his allergies. I had to put him on an elimination diet to identify the allergens.

Even now there are still odd days when he won't eat, but cries because he is hungry.  But mostly I am just grateful to have found a diet that he likes (overall) that has addressed his food allergies.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hobbs -- I had reply from manufacturers of calcium EAP2:- 

each capsule contains 100mg calcium & 740 mg ethanolmine phosphate.
I have been giving him half a capsule a day in food. 

Judging by what you said, this is far too high a level of phosphate for him?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Time to rethink your calcium supplementation for him me thinks


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

cookiemom said:


> Chillminx, will he not eat 'bone in' meats?


Yes, that would be easiest!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Yes, that would be easiest!


Yep..........in theory!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

chillminx said:


> Yep..........in theory!


I cannot remember. Have you ever tried him on minced bone if he isn't willing to chew his own?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

No, 'cause can't find source of bone on its own except minced beef bone, and he is allergic to beef products. 

I might ask the butchers I buy rabbit from if they would mince some raw rabbit bone on its own. Already asked about raw minced chicken bone, but they said no.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

chillminx said:


> No, 'cause can't find source of bone on its own except minced beef bone, and he is allergic to beef products.
> 
> I might ask the butchers I buy rabbit from if they would mince some raw rabbit bone on its own. Already asked about raw minced chicken bone, but they said no.


What about those premade raw minces, such as Honeys? The lamb, for example, has only lamb stuff (including bone), the rabbit has rabbit and lamb stuff and then there is the chicken, duck etc that your cat should be ok with?

Also, re rabbit, have a look on Woldsway - they sell rabbit in chunks or minced.

I should think it is very unlikely that a butcher would mince bone of any animal for you - far to heavy on their machines.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> What about those premade raw minces, such as Honeys? The lamb, for example, has only lamb stuff (including bone), the rabbit has rabbit and lamb stuff and then there is the chicken, duck etc that your cat should be ok with?
> 
> Also, re rabbit, have a look on Woldsway - they sell rabbit in chunks or minced.


He won't eat raw minces, raw chunks, or raw on the bone. See my reply to Cookiemom ^^^^


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