# Dry Dog food whats the best out there ? ................



## Guest

Whats the best dry dog food out there??? any thoughts?? i am feeding my dog james wellbeloved wich is good but dear to buywhat do you feed your dog and why !?? and how much is it !?


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## Guest

Mine were fed Beta puppy by there Breeders,we weaned them over to Burns Mini Bites when we brought them home,Still on Burns but the Adult Version.

They have done well on it,very little in the way of tummy upsets.


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## Debbie

You already know mine Garry....but...
Arden Grange at £36 and Royal Canin which I get at £26 ish
Every food suits a dog better than another.....its all down to what the dog looks good on and prefers.....
I have had Purina Large Breed and thats a good one too - my adult DDB male just got bored of it LOL Like he does with every food - so I swap between a few to keep him eating


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## bullyb

i gave my puppies beta puppy and give my adult dogs burns.


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## basi

Well I feed mine on Royal Canin Meduim breed and they are in super condition. I have tried other food but not had such good results Burns being one of them. What suits some might not suit others.


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## Guest

we give cassie nutro choice large breed puppy food nver had a problem with it either it was recommened to us by a friend. cassie doesnt even have very skinky trumps! my mums previous labrador had tinned meat and really really stunk!


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## Jenny Olley

Burns is an excellent complete food, very pure, but some dogs struggle to keep weight on with it, which is ideal for my working dogs, but can be a problem with dogs required to carry a bit more weight.


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## bordercolliepup

I feed mine Beta from the time I had her and it seems to do her good have had no probs with it .


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## carol

bordercolliepup said:


> I feed mine Beta from the time I had her and it seems to do her good have had no probs with it .


when i got sprinkle the breeder had him on beta, i soon changed that the smell that used to come out of him im sure it used to peel the wall paper off the walls .


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## bordercolliepup

I've aways wondered what the smell was , I just blamed it on the kids hehe 
No only joking I haven't had a prob with her , but then different foods do different things Its trial and error what you find suits


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## carol

bordercolliepup said:


> I've aways wondered what the smell was , I just blamed it on the kids hehe
> No only joking I haven't had a prob with her , but then different foods do different things Its trial and error what you find suits


lol i used to say was my hubby


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## Guest

I feed Arden Grange Salmon and Rice. 
Bought in Breeder bags 15k = £24.95

Ingredients 

Fresh Salmon (min 26%), Whole Grain Rice (min 26%), Whole Grain Maize, Chicken Fat*, Chicken Meal*, Beet Pulp, Dried Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract. * Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract. 

Typical Analysis 

Protein 25%, Oil 15%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 7%, Moisture 8%, Omega6 3.89%, Omega3 0.95%, Vitamin A 20000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1500 IU/kg, Vitamin E 135 IU/kg, Calcium 1.2%, Phosphorous P 0.75%, Copper 20 mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).


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## Guest

jan-c said:


> I feed Arden Grange Salmon and Rice.
> Bought in Breeder bags 15k = £24.95
> 
> Ingredients
> 
> Fresh Salmon (min 26%), Whole Grain Rice (min 26%), Whole Grain Maize, Chicken Fat*, Chicken Meal*, Beet Pulp, Dried Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract. * Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract.
> 
> Typical Analysis
> 
> Protein 25%, Oil 15%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 7%, Moisture 8%, Omega6 3.89%, Omega3 0.95%, Vitamin A 20000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1500 IU/kg, Vitamin E 135 IU/kg, Calcium 1.2%, Phosphorous P 0.75%, Copper 20 mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).


my dogs hate that salmon type food !


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## Dawny

James Wellbeloved is my dog's food of choice. I don't find it expensive though, not compared to foods like Eukanuba!


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## Puppy Love

We feed our puppy on Royal Canin Baby dog - Ultra sensible as this is what the breeder used. It costs us £35 for a 15kg bag but it gives the puppy everything it needs.

Bye for now


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## growler1961

we use purina pro plan puppy for weaning & mum has this while feeding 
we have tried them all !!
this one is our preferred choice 
dr johns dry complete is another food that suits our dogs, when a special diet is not required
but we are considering changing to a natural diet meat bone & vegetable?
as this is some thing we have not tried ,does any body else feed this ??


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## Tweedle Dee

We feed Eukanuba to the pup's. The adults are on Chudleys working crunch.
They all wolf it down so it must taste good . Seems to suit all 5 of our adult dogs really well too which other brands have'nt. 

Ang


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## BredaKim

Well I must have the weirdest dog...I feed Meg on beta, but she gets really fed up after about three months and will only eat tinned pedigree chum. I have to swap about once every three months.  It's the only way I can keep her eating or she jut turns her nose up...refuses...gives me a disgusted look and walks of in a huff!! I know then it's time for a change!
Banjo has Hills Science from the vet...he seems to enjoy it...but will nibble at Meg's if she leaves any  <sigh>

Breda


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## Guest

I feed my dog Science Plan!


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## kaz

I have just changed our feed from Bakers (I know - hangs head in shame) to James Wellbeloved but I'm finding it too expensive for 5 dogs. My cousin has just told me about a food called Nutrience that I might try.


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## Guest

kaz said:


> I have just changed our feed from Bakers (I know - hangs head in shame) to James Wellbeloved but I'm finding it too expensive for 5 dogs. My cousin has just told me about a food called Nutrience that I might try.


 i have been using James Wellbeloved and its an awsome food but it is very dear


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## Jenny Olley

A really cheap way of feeding is on chicken carcusses, although you do need to find a supplier first, we get a box for £5, and there is loads of meat on them, this feeds my six dogs for 3 days (3 BC's, 2 GSD'S and a GSD X BC). The other days in the week they have Burns complete food. I know lots of people say you shouldn't mix food in this way. All my dogs are fit and healthy and live to a good age, remaining fit up to the end, so I am happy with it. They also never have stomach upsets.


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## Angel

Natures menu.....

But she has stopped eating dry food altogether so now we are on the pouches...........


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## Guest

garryd said:


> Whats the best dry dog food out there??? any thoughts?? i am feeding my dog james wellbeloved wich is good but dear to buywhat do you feed your dog and why !?? and how much is it !?


My personal choice is Arden Grange. Natural Premium Dog Food & Cat Food From Arden Grange

British made with a higher meat content than most and no artificial colours etc.

The lab version suits many dogs with iffy digestion nd keeps their coats in top nick.

Also it is very well priced on the breeder/professional user scheme where it is VAT Free and in plain bags.

You can get two or more bags delivered FOC from their distributers.


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## Guest

Brainless said:


> My personal choice is Arden Grange. Natural Premium Dog Food & Cat Food From Arden Grange
> 
> British made with a higher meat content than most and no artificial colours etc.
> 
> The lab version suits many dogs with iffy digestion nd keeps their coats in top nick.
> 
> Also it is very well priced on the breeder/professional user scheme where it is VAT Free and in plain bags.
> 
> You can get two or more bags delivered FOC from their distributers.


 i hope now that what i am trying will work for my skinny old bull terrier, to fatten him up i am trying tripe and dry food then pasta of a night time ,pluss i am gonna cut him down on going on my jogs with me as i think i maybe running all the weight off of him ! 3 miles a day jogging aint gonna help him get fat is it !
i will try that for awhile and see how i get on


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## bullyb

garryd said:


> i hope now that what i am trying will work for my skinny old bull terrier, to fatten him up i am trying tripe and dry food then pasta of a night time ,pluss i am gonna cut him down on going on my jogs with me as i think i maybe running all the weight off of him ! 3 miles a day jogging aint gonna help him get fat is it !
> i will try that for awhile and see how i get on


tripes great for fattening up a dog, also theres a diet called barf diet which is really good to build them up


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## Guest

bullyb said:


> tripes great for fattening up a dog, also theres a diet called barf diet which is really good to build them up


whats a barf diet may i ask?


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## bullyb

garryd said:


> whats a barf diet may i ask?


its all different flavours. its in frozen blocks and you just defrost as you need them, tripes a good one for putting weight on, have a look at this link....

UK BARF Club - The Ultimate BARF and Natural Feeding Guide for Cats and Dogs


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## kaz

BARF stands for Bones And Raw Food


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## Lexi-puppy

i feed my dog on pedigree better by nature i've never known my dog enjoy it so much.

sign up free to pedigree and they send you money off vouchers!!!


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## Guest

Lexi-puppy said:


> i feed my dog on pedigree better by nature i've never known my dog enjoy it so much.
> 
> sign up free to pedigree and they send you money off vouchers!!!


pedigree


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## Beadell

Jenny Olley said:


> Burns is an excellent complete food, very pure, but some dogs struggle to keep weight on with it, which is ideal for my working dogs, but can be a problem with dogs required to carry a bit more weight.


Hi Burns do a high energy lamg which is suitable for the underweight dog


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## andrea 35

Hi has anyone heard of Pero food they seem to be a smaller food develloper ive looked at there web site and they do a food spcifically for labs and an organic food and a more widely used generall food it seems reasonable and has a good break down of ingedients i think 15 kilo was about 30 quid with free p&p you may get it cheeper on line else where i called them the other day and asked for some samples and the lady i spoke to was more than happy to help. I have 2 labs at the moment our new dog is just finishing a bag of cheep stuff she was on already befroe we got her , our other Lab is on royal canin lab breed specific and its quite costly at 35 quid for 12 kilos but i will say as we had terrible problems with her tummy when she was little we found this great as it sorted her out . Im looking for somthing i can feed them both on and not break the bank so thought the pero sounded ok


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## tangiersgemspaniels

ive fed all my pups royal canin and my adult dogs too but the medium adult but i have slowly weaned mine onto beta as royal canin has got to expenzive luckily all my dogs are now on adult food now so i just buy a massive sack


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## kaz

I've been researching this for the last few days and have narrowed it down to Arden Grange or Nutro Choice.......
.......I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure


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## crawfom

I've just discoverd a great new food Joe & jacks in sainsbury's.
I can actually understand the ingredients list - and my MAX adores it.

Just found there website address Pets' Kitchen - Joe & Jack's natural food for dogs and you can get it delivered free of charge.

MAX looks better on this than anything else I've tried

Oh - and if you are using Pedigree Better than Nature just look at the ingredients list, what a load of rubbish


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## bullbreeds

andrea 35 said:


> Hi has anyone heard of Pero food they seem to be a smaller food develloper ive looked at there web site and they do a food spcifically for labs and an organic food and a more widely used generall food it seems reasonable and has a good break down of ingedients i think 15 kilo was about 30 quid with free p&p you may get it cheeper on line else where i called them the other day and asked for some samples and the lady i spoke to was more than happy to help. I have 2 labs at the moment our new dog is just finishing a bag of cheep stuff she was on already befroe we got her , our other Lab is on royal canin lab breed specific and its quite costly at 35 quid for 12 kilos but i will say as we had terrible problems with her tummy when she was little we found this great as it sorted her out . Im looking for somthing i can feed them both on and not break the bank so thought the pero sounded ok


Mine eat pero and they love it. They can all be quite fussy eaters but this has moist meaty chunks in it which they love. Its also contains oils which i have to say has made their coats gleam!
I give it an A+.


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## Guest

bullbreeds said:


> Mine eat pero and they love it. They can all be quite fussy eaters but this has moist meaty chunks in it which they love. Its also contains oils which i have to say has made their coats gleam!
> I give it an A+.


how much is that for a 15kg bag ???


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## bullbreeds

garryd said:


> how much is that for a 15kg bag ???


£9.99 (Im not joking) at pets at home (dont know if you have that store near you). Its really good value and the nutrient content is very good.
I'll be branded the cheap backyard breeder now!


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## Guest

bullbreeds said:


> £9.99 (Im not joking) at pets at home (dont know if you have that store near you). Its really good value and the nutrient content is very good.
> I'll be branded the cheap backyard breeder now!


 i have been called that so much i want to change my screen name to that but lorraine wont let me !


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## Jo P

Both mine are BARFers and I'd never go back to kibble


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## Jo P

and I know of a few peeps with EBTs who have had skin problems and gone onto BARF with great results


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## Guest

Jo P said:


> and I know of a few peeps with EBTs who have had skin problems and gone onto BARF with great results


explain again what barf is !???


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## Jo P

It's basically a raw food diet Garry. Mine get a varied diet of Tripe, chicken, beef, lambs hearts, lamb and tripe mix, lamb and veg and meat mix. I get it delivered to the house from a firm called Landywoods - it all comes in 1 lb packs and its frozen on arrival. They get a pound of meat a day each, fed in two meals. I mix it with Holistic Wholebake mixer biscuit. They get the veg mix once or twice a week only - the veg is raw too but it has to be mulched or the dogs dont get the full goodness out of it. They get tinned fish once a week. Raw chicken wings are brilliant too as the main constituent of the raw diet is the bones. They also get large marrow bones twice a week - £3.50 for 18 - again delivered to the door. 
It costs me @ £8.00 per week to feed two Rotts.


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## Guest

Jo P said:


> It's basically a raw food diet Garry. Mine get a varied diet of Tripe, chicken, beef, lambs hearts, lamb and tripe mix, lamb and veg and meat mix. I get it delivered to the house from a firm called Landywoods - it all comes in 1 lb packs and its frozen on arrival. They get a pound of meat a day each, fed in two meals. I mix it with Holistic Wholebake mixer biscuit. They get the veg mix once or twice a week only - the veg is raw too but it has to be mulched or the dogs dont get the full goodness out of it. They get tinned fish once a week. Raw chicken wings are brilliant too as the main constituent of the raw diet is the bones. They also get large marrow bones twice a week - £3.50 for 18 - again delivered to the door.
> It costs me @ £8.00 per week to feed two Rotts.


intesting jo ,i am feeding mine tripe at the minute costing about £15 a week for 4 bull terriers plus some dry food all though they dont realy care for the dry food i stll put in there ! they have past at night 3 times a week and the odd pigs ear allso ! i might look in to the barf diet abit more and see how much it might cost me !


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## Jo P

Buy a book called Give Your Dog A Bone by Dr Ian Billinghurst - he's like the BARF guru - the book is brilliant - its written in plain English so you can understand what to feed and why you feed it

The frozen Tripe from Landywoods comes in 1 lb packs and its 26p - I know when I only had Nelson I used to buy it from jolleys and it was about 60p - self same thing so its alot cheaper than in the shops.


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## Guest

Jo P said:


> Buy a book called Give Your Dog A Bone by Dr Ian Billinghurst - he's like the BARF guru - the book is brilliant - its written in plain English so you can understand what to feed and why you feed it
> 
> The frozen Tripe from Landywoods comes in 1 lb packs and its 26p - I know when I only had Nelson I used to buy it from jolleys and it was about 60p - self same thing so its alot cheaper than in the shops.


god jo thats cheap tripe ,as i am paying 45p for 455grm packs  where is this place again! are they local to you or are the nationwide suppliers!


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## Jo P

Landywood Pet Foods : Home

They deliver all over the place - where do you live??


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## Guest

Jo P said:


> Landywood Pet Foods : Home
> 
> They deliver all over the place - where do you live??


 gloucester ! whats there number??


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## Jo P

oh I forgot to say - the BEST thing about feeding BARF is the poo. Long gone are the days of the big brown chog log - oh no we dont have them at this house - BARF poo is non smelly, more crumbly - similar to malteser shapes - only a bit bigger - and a lot less of it - cos they take more goodness out of the food there's less waste product - RESULT!!! And especially in your house Garry with 4 dogs - you'll save a small fortune on poo bags alone


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## Guest

Jo P said:


> oh I forgot to say - the BEST thing about feeding BARF is the poo. Long gone are the days of the big brown chog log - oh no we dont have them at this house - BARF poo is non smelly, more crumbly - similar to malteser shapes - only a bit bigger - and a lot less of it - cos they take more goodness out of the food there's less waste product - RESULT!!! And especially in your house Garry with 4 dogs - you'll save a small fortune on poo bags alone


i am lucky they sleep out side , they got a kennel cost me a grand  allthough there inside with me watching tv ect ect most of the time but i dont leve them to sleep in the house or alone in it as they would run riot!


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## Jo P

I didnt mean literally 'in your house' Garry LOL LOL - I just meant with you having four dogs


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## ilovesharpei

the barf diet is good as long as they have strong stomaches mine found it upset theres, 
my 2 have the james wellbeloved duck and veg (no rice) with either tripe or fish or beef mince only a little just to mix in neither of them have smelly poo's (lol)
or itchy coats or anyother problems, dudley is so well muscled now its great after soo long trying every other dog food cheap and expensive and him just loosing weight. even the vet told me there was nothing wrong with him even with blood on his stolls etc and costing me £150 for the pleasure.
but none of that now ! 
(sorry if a bit rambly had a glass of wine lolol  )


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## Jo P

with any diet change it has to be done over a matter of about 3 - 4 weeks - steady away so as not to upset the stomach - but I suppose it wont be the diet for evey dog


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## ilovesharpei

mine can't have marrow bones as they are too rich andthe older one is soo fussy that he acts like you are trying to poisen him with whatever you are feeding him,
lol


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## Jo P

I have a friend who gave her Rott a marrow bone and he thought she might like the lounge redecorated a lovely shade of tan - his bottom just expoded - it wasnt pretty, poor boy - needless to say he hasnt had another one!!!


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## ilovesharpei

yes i have had a similar expirience! lolol


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## andrea 35

Ive been doing a bit of research too ive now got 2 labs both 12 months old and our origional dog Daisy is on royal canin and our new one is on some pants stuff that the people we had her from gave us . having the 2 i wanted to get them on the same but the royal canin is quite expensive even with our discount from the vets. So i found pero and asked for some samples wich arrived on saturday of the lab life food its more than there other foods but with the fact that labs can become over weight if not closely kept in check and the whole joint thing i thought the little extra would be worth it. I must say they wolfed it down gave them no tummy trouble after ,and smelt not too bed either . From the makers its free delivery and 15 kilo is 30 quid ive estimated it will feed both of them for about 3 weeks. Im going to order a bag and see how we go, Did any one check out the link someone put on here yesterday about the addatives put in to dog food that was causing real health problems unreal you just dont know food claims on bags is really misleading , having looked further into this ive found that even Royal canin has 2 preservatives in it that are banned from human consumption because its been linked with cancer !!!!!


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## Mac Dog

I started out feeding my mutt James Wellbeloved
Then he seemed to get a bit bored of it and we tried him on Royal Canin, which he loved but he did seem to put some weight on
He was then diagnosed with artritus in both his front elbows so we now have him on Hills Scientific Light
Costs a fortune but the weight dropped off him and he enjoys it with a tin of oily sardines in a morning


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## Guest

Mac Dog said:


> I started out feeding my mutt James Wellbeloved
> Then he seemed to get a bit bored of it and we tried him on Royal Canin, which he loved but he did seem to put some weight on
> He was then diagnosed with artritus in both his front elbows so we now have him on Hills Scientific Light
> Costs a fortune but the weight dropped off him and he enjoys it with a tin of oily sardines in a morning


 i have fed mine James Wellbeloved and it is a top food but as with all dryed food they get bored qwick dont they!


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## LisaMc

Hi All
I'm new to the site and have found it very informative
I wondedered if you could advise me also on dry food, we have a staffie cross (with a english bull terrier we think ) around 10 months when we picked him up fromthe RSPCA they had been feeding him James wellbeloved so we did the same however he had the runs and it was very bad so we took him to the vets twice and none of the meds worked, we then put him on natures diet and he has "firmed up," So now we don't know if to keep him on this or try with another dry food that isn't so rich, also I'm unsure as to what to look for on ingrediants that isn't rich, 
I would be gratefull for any advise

Regards
Lisa


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## andrea 35

HI lisa if you did enough resaerch you wouldnt probably feed them anything from the shelves of the pet shop there is a mine field of ingredients to avoid a lot of which are not labelled but safe to say a good rule of thumb is when and if you do change him do it slowly over a week or so adding the new food gradually . ive got mine on a food called pero which is for labs but they do food for other general dogs too and they do an organic and working dog foods too . all there chicken is grade A fit for human consumption , so no worries that your protien content also has things like feathers and beaks ect like other foods. look at the label, you want protien to be the first ingredient at about 20 % or more avoid wheat and gluten as they can give tummy upsets and of course the more you pay generally the better the content is ,Arden grange is another good one but really its trial and error if you can keep him on what he is on if it suits him then do so if not do a bit of research most good suppliers will send you samples if you ask Pero did, you can order off the net free delivery from there web site too.


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## brianbvs

Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble
Dog Food Review - Dog Food Comparison
... you might want to check these pages about dog food...


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## terrijane

Hi 
I feed both Gemma and Busby on Oscars Dog food. Its £30for a sack lasts 2 dog about a month which I think is good value. Used to feed expensive brands tried most of them but found this to be best for my 2 also poo nice and firm and not smelly. And its delivered as its a franchise so you can't get it in a shop.


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## tracyi

I used to feed my GSD James Wellbeloved, he has a sensitive stomach and it was great for him and he loved it, but I was the same as you garry it cost too much, he was eating more than a bag a month.
My uncle who has gun dogs suggested skinners which costs around £15 for a 15kg bag and he's had no probs with it, been on it a year or so now and never had the runs once - can't be bad .
Also it calmed him down a smidgen as it's lower in protein, which I understand can contribute to hyperactiveness - and he's a nutter


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## Dorastar

I used to feed mine on James Wellbeloved but was asked to do a trial for Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice as apparently it is very similar to James Wellbeloved but about half the price.

I have been feeding my dogs on this for at least two years now and they have done really well on it and I wouldn't now go back.


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## tracyi

> I used to feed mine on James Wellbeloved but was asked to do a trial for Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice as apparently it is very similar to James Wellbeloved but about half the price.
> 
> I have been feeding my dogs on this for at least two years now and they have done really well on it and I wouldn't now go back.


Me neither, definately not at that price


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## tootsiesmum

I have fed my dog on James Wellbeloved for ages but she seems to be getting a bit sick of it ( 1 bag lasts literally months ) so I bought a small bag of IAMS at the supermarket, mixed a bit in with her usual and she picked out the IAMS  am a bit worried that nobody else on here has mentioned IAMS though  as she seels to love it. My Mum gave her Caesar when she stayed at her house - she stank


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## Guest

Iams contains a lot of low quality and controversial ingredients.

Does anyone feed their dog Orijen??? I've just ordered some online from zooplus.co.uk


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## foxylady

Mine has beta puppy, large breed.


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## tootsiesmum

thanks for the info AJ - will be changing her again after this bag then


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## Guest

tootsiesmum said:


> thanks for the info AJ - will be changing her again after this bag then


Problem is most foods contain a load of rubbish!


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## Mourne

Getting my pup in 4 weeks and already getting excited so I was in Pets at home today having a look around at the things I will need to buy. Has anyone tried their own brand complete food? It looks decent in terms of ingredients and not as expensive as, eg., royal canin which was £46 for a 15kg bag.

Still doing my research so any input will be helpful.

cheers


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## tashi

Mourne said:


> Getting my pup in 4 weeks and already getting excited so I was in Pets at home today having a look around at the things I will need to buy. Has anyone tried their own brand complete food? It looks decent in terms of ingredients and not as expensive as, eg., royal canin which was £46 for a 15kg bag.
> 
> Still doing my research so any input will be helpful.
> 
> cheers


You really need to find out what pup is on at the moment and continue with that until he/she is settled then think about changing the food slowly to your chosen food.


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## Mourne

tashi said:


> You really need to find out what pup is on at the moment and continue with that until he/she is settled then think about changing the food slowly to your chosen food.


Yes I know that; she is on James well beloved. I am tring to find out alternatives, hence the question about Pets at Home's own brand.


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## Guest

Mourne said:


> Yes I know that; she is on James well beloved. I am tring to find out alternatives, hence the question about Pets at Home's own brand.


 Wow, think i'll keep my advice to myself incase I get my head biten off too!


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## JimJamz

Personally I find own brands to be full of rubbish & cheap fillers. I wouldn't feed my dogs it. James Wellbeloved is a good food to keep your pup on depending on your budget. How much are you willing to pay ?


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## Daisy8

Hi,

I have always fed my dogs on Burns which is a natural food and they have thrived on it, recommended it to friends and family and some of my friends dogs have had a new lease of life, but it is always down to what you think best.


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## Jenny Olley

Mourne said:


> Getting my pup in 4 weeks and already getting excited so I was in Pets at home today having a look around at the things I will need to buy. Has anyone tried their own brand complete food? It looks decent in terms of ingredients and not as expensive as, eg., royal canin which was £46 for a 15kg bag.
> 
> Still doing my research so any input will be helpful.
> 
> cheers


Pets at home own brand food isn't bad, there are a lot worse foods on the market including more expensive ones, it is made with meat not derivitives or meal.


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## Jenny Olley

Daisy8 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have always fed my dogs on Burns which is a natural food and they have thrived on it, recommended it to friends and family and some of my friends dogs have had a new lease of life, but it is always down to what you think best.


Burns is excellent food, it gave our lab who was eight and a half a new lease of life, the only problem i have found is some dogs such as shepherds struggle to keep weight on with it.


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## Guest

Jenny Olley said:


> the only problem i have found is some dogs such as shepherds struggle to keep weight on with it.


Thats because its 60% rice and very little meat!


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## ScottieDog

I feed my dogs on IAM at the moment previously Eukanuba. Expensive food but I really notice the difference in their coat mainly for my Scottie.

Trouble being having 2 samll dogs and 2 medium dogs then the youngest is 3 oldest is 12. I have to buy 2 different bags makes it expensive but what can you do.


----------



## Mourne

ajshep1984 said:


> Wow, think i'll keep my advice to myself incase I get my head biten off too!


that wasn't my intention at all, so sorry if it came over that way  I just wanted an answer to the question I asked.


----------



## Mourne

Jenny Olley said:


> Pets at home own brand food isn't bad, there are a lot worse foods on the market including more expensive ones, it is made with meat not derivitives or meal.


thanks for the answer Jenny


----------



## crawfom

Mine are on Joe & Jack's which is superb. I get it from Sainsbury's which is so easy - and I use their website for my wet food Welcome to Pets' Kitchen natural food for dogs and cats


----------



## Jenny Olley

ajshep1984 said:


> Thats because its 60% rice and very little meat!


I'm a vegi, so I don't eat meat, sadly I don't struggle to keep weight on !! I thought the calorific value of rice is higher than meat, so how does that work, i also thought rice was easily digestible by dogs, but of course I could be wrong.


----------



## Guest

Jenny Olley said:


> I'm a vegi, so I don't eat meat, sadly I don't struggle to keep weight on !! I thought the calorific value of rice is higher than meat, so how does that work, i also thought rice was easily digestible by dogs, but of course I could be wrong.


Rice is better than other grains used in some dog foods but really dogs shouldn't eat grains they're carnivores not omnivores and _in my opinion_ the main ingredient in any dog food should be meat. A dog digestive system isn't designed for carbohydrates. 

Having said that burns is a good quality commercial food it just has a low meat content. 

Iams uses by-products, controversial filler and low quality grains as well as having a low meat content, not a good mix!


----------



## Jenny Olley

ajshep1984 said:


> Rice is better than other grains used in some dog foods but really dogs shouldn't eat grains they're carnivores not omnivores. A dog cant make much use of any carbohydrates because of its short digestive system.
> 
> Having said that burns is a good quality commercial food.
> 
> Iams uses by-products, controversial filler and low quality grains as well as having a low meat content, not a good mix!


Thanks Alan, I've never come across a complete food that doesn't have some sort of cereal or grain in, just realised how stupid that is it would be dried meat, with maybe a few veggies.


----------



## Guest

Jenny Olley said:


> Thanks Alan, I've never come across a complete food that doesn't have some sort of cereal or grain in, just realised how stupid that is it would be dried meat, with maybe a few veggies.


You can get dried food that is just meat and veg but its very expensive as meat is the most expensive ingredient in dog food, I would guess thats why most commercial manufacturers put in grains as theres no other reason for it. Brown rice isn't bad for dogs as such just not very nutritional. Other lower quality grains can actually cause allergies in dogs.


----------



## Guest

I dont know if this has already beem mentioned but nutro is a very good food,it hasnt got any rubbish in and contains dry chicken as the main ingrediant,no by products,


----------



## Guest

clare7577 said:


> I dont know if this has already beem mentioned but nutro is a very good food,it hasnt got any rubbish in and contains dry chicken as the main ingrediant,no by products,


Nutro is a reasonable quality food, still a low meat content though and some ingredients known to cause allergies, better than most you see on the shelves though!

Im not sure how commercial food manufacturers can claim to provide a "complete" meal when they have such low meat contents, dogs are carnivores!!!


----------



## staceyscats1

hey  i would say almo holistic or eagle pack as they contain no crap and they do dry and wet food 
look on my useful links page theres a great online shop its really good.

good luck with your new puppy


----------



## cleevale

I have just started stocking 1st Choice and Pronature, both offer a range of dried dog food to suit small and large breeds, wheat intolerant, hypo-allergenic, weight control, senior and less active, etc.


----------



## rona3579

I feed my three Pro-Plan It is exspensive but they love it.


----------



## nellie_dean

Lexi-puppy said:


> i feed my dog on pedigree better by nature i've never known my dog enjoy it so much.


I'm sure that the food is perfectly wholesome, but I do question Pedigree's marketing of this as a 'natural' food when you look at what is in it. I don't classify BHA, BHT as natural and most other companies that sell natural dog foods wouldn't touch those chemicals with a barge pole!

Pet Food Choice - Pedigree Better By Nature reviewed

Personally I've been using the new Pets at Home food and think it's great


----------



## HandsOnPaws

nellie_dean said:


> I'm sure that the food is perfectly wholesome, but I do question Pedigree's marketing of this as a 'natural' food when you look at what is in it. I don't classify BHA, BHT as natural and most other companies that sell natural dog foods wouldn't touch those chemicals with a barge pole!
> 
> Pet Food Choice - Pedigree Better By Nature reviewed
> 
> Personally I've been using the new Pets at Home food and think it's great


You are so right about the pedigree. It isn't better by nature, its full of rubbish, and something like 2% veg  Once you learn how to read pet food labels properly, you will realise there are only a few foods that actually are any good.

Anyone ever read this?
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/petextras/PFStext

Compare the ingredients of burns chicken and rice
Brown Rice (min 63%), Chicken(min 20%), Oats, Peas, Chicken Oil,Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Minerals & Vitamins

to Proplan chicken
Chicken (20%), Rice (15%), Maize, Dehydrated poultry protein, Maize gluten, Wheat, Animal fat (protected by mixed tocopherols), Digest, Beet pulp, Fish oil, Dried egg, Yeast, Calcium phosphate, Potassium chloride, Sodium chloride, Calcium carbonate, Minerals.

Notice how maize appears twice, again as maize gluten? Thats just maize but they can call it that so it doesn't appear to be full of it on the ingredient list. Beet pulp? The number one bulker outer  the waste from sweet factories, nice and sweet to get your dog hooked on the sugar.

Where's the contest? All it takes is a little bit of education and effort to make sure you get the best food.

IMO, if i ever ever desperatly had to, id use Luaths, from Land of holistic pets

Land of Holistic Pets Ltd Dog Food


----------



## tootsiesmum

thanks Hands on Paws - I have just received some samples of the Luath dog food that you mentioned to try Tootsie on. Will give it to her tomorrow and see if she likes it.


----------



## Laurel-Amy

To be honest I feed my dog pets at home own brand for 8.99, its a great food which hollie loves and she wolfs every last bit of it down, has put weight on for her seeing as though she was quite skinny when we got her and its nutritionally balanced


----------



## Guest

Pets at home own brand seems to be quite good,i have bought the kitten and cat food before.


----------



## lyndragon

i have been advised to ween my puppies on james beloved they really love it .


----------



## Guest

I have just replied to another thread about dog poop, and thought it would be good to oost here aswell. i have changed my dogs food to Burns and my dog has been revitalised. More energy, coat, eyes softer and clearer. She also POOPS much less - I guess less junk put in Burns thus less cr*p to get rid off.
So will be sticking to Burns - plus not tested on animals


----------



## EllenJay

I have got our dog on Orijen Senior (from Zooplus) and she seems to really enjoy it.


----------



## Speed Demoness

both ours have Alpha Sporting dog.. 22% protein around £8.75 for a 15kg bag
Huskies tend to have 'dickie' tummies.. this sorted him out no end, and now there's something 'solid' instead of 'ewwww' !


----------



## lyndragon

were do you get burns food from I have never heared of it and can I give it to puppies.


----------



## Guest

EllenJay said:


> I have got our dog on Orijen Senior (from Zooplus) and she seems to really enjoy it.


I think Orijen is the best dry food you can get, if I didn't feed raw I'd feed Orijen!


----------



## tashi

lyndragon said:


> were do you get burns food from I have never heared of it and can I give it to puppies.


Burns is available in most good pet shops and they do do a puppy food although I have heard varying reports on it be sure to read the breakdown


----------



## Guest

tashi said:


> Burns is available in most good pet shops and they do do a puppy food although I have heard varying reports on it be sure to read the breakdown


I've heard varying opinions on it too, some say its great and others say their dogs loose a lot of weight on it amoung other things.

Never heard anything bad about Orijen yet!


----------



## tashi

ajshep1984 said:


> I've heard varying opinions on it too, some say its great and others say their dogs loose a lot of weight on it amoung other things.
> 
> Never heard anything bad about Orijen yet!


Burns is one I have only ever fed once and would never feed again but it is each to their own and different dogs have different results on it ours did not do well at all on it lost weight and was feeding it to a dog with exzema which just got gradually worse


----------



## Guest

tashi said:


> Burns is one I have only ever fed once and would never feed again but it is each to their own and different dogs have different results on it ours did not do well at all on it lost weight and was feeding it to a dog with exzema which just got gradually worse


Do you feed all of your dogs on the same food?


----------



## tashi

ajshep1984 said:


> Do you feed all of your dogs on the same food?


no they are on variations of royal canin 6 feed bins altogether


----------



## Guest

is that realy how you feed your dogs Alan??


----------



## cocis

On the breeders recommendation we bought our border collie Izzy a 15kg bag of Nutro Choice puppy food. She appeared to be quite satisfied with this till we started training her with Hills Science (free from the vet). She would then turn her nose up at the Nutro Choise so after four days of stubbornness we fed her the Hills and guess what? After a couple of days on it she started to turn her nose up at this, unless we use it for training or in her Kong. Is it just her eagerness to please with her training (i.e she wants to work for her food) or is she just going to be a faddy eater? 

Anyone need about 14kg of kibble?!!!!


----------



## daycare4dogs

burns pet nutrition is very good, it is natural holistic dog food created by the vet burns. it is a little more expensive, but a very well balanced nutritional diet. you can get it on ebay which is a bit cheaper than in the shops. it is specially formulated for all kinds of diseases, skin problems and a normal daily diet. its very good and well worth a try. you can get small packs of 750g for puppies, and 2kg and up for puppies and adult dogs.


----------



## daycare4dogs

try burns, i found it cheap on ebay, follow the link


----------



## Guest

daycare4dogs said:


> try burns, i found it cheap on ebay, follow the link


No thanks, my dogs are carnivores!


----------



## cocis

cocis said:


> On the breeders recommendation we bought our border collie Izzy a 15kg bag of Nutro Choice puppy food. She appeared to be quite satisfied with this till we started training her with Hills Science (free from the vet). She would then turn her nose up at the Nutro Choise so after four days of stubbornness we fed her the Hills and guess what? After a couple of days on it she started to turn her nose up at this, unless we use it for training or in her Kong. Is it just her eagerness to please with her training (i.e she wants to work for her food) or is she just going to be a faddy eater?
> 
> Anyone need about 14kg of kibble?!!!!


Aaargh! Just been looking at some previous threads and I get the feeling that the general impression is that Hills Science is crap? Been doing some research this afternoon and I am seriously considering the BARF diet (not, me, the dog)
but am truly scared. It all sounds really complicated, I don't put THAT much thought into preparing the OH's meals! Hmm.....is it suitable for the two legged variety.................


----------



## Guest

Feeding a BARF diet isn't complicated once you get into it! It's just the initial research that can be confusing! There are plenty of people on here (myself included) that will give you lots of advice and tips!


----------



## cocis

ajshep1984 said:


> Feeding a BARF diet isn't complicated once you get into it! It's just the initial research that can be confusing! There are plenty of people on here (myself included) that will give you lots of advice and tips!


Thanks! Ok where do I start? Shall I just go straight for it? Pup is only 11 weeks so maybe I should introduce it gradually? Has anyone tried the frozen 'ready meals' (Nature's Choice, I think it's called?). They don't have any artificial adds and as we only have the one dog wouldn't be too expensive. Or is this the canine equivalent to getting a Birds Eye lasagne out of the freezer instead of making your own?


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> Thanks! Ok where do I start? Shall I just go straight for it? Pup is only 11 weeks so maybe I should introduce it gradually? Has anyone tried the frozen 'ready meals' (Nature's Choice, I think it's called?). They don't have any artificial adds and as we only have the one dog wouldn't be too expensive. Or is this the canine equivalent to getting a Birds Eye lasagne out of the freezer instead of making your own?


I can't comment on the frozen "ready meals" as I've never tried them but take a look at these websites for starters:

UK BARF Club - The Ultimate BARF and Natural Feeding Guide for Cats and Dogs
BARF Diet - Healthy & Natural Raw Food For Dogs & Cats, Pet Health Care Food & Nutrition Products Supply Online
The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

and the threads on here:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/4987-raw-feeding-discussion-4.html
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/4811-raw-diet.html

and these are some good books:

The Barf Diet: For Cats and Dogs: Ian Billinghurst
Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats: The Ultimate Diet: Kymythy Schulze
Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health: Tom Lonsdale


----------



## cocis

Ok, that'll keep me busy lol! many thanks.

Up the stags!!!!


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> Ok, that'll keep me busy lol! many thanks.


That should get you to the point where you can just ask us on here to fill in the blanks!


----------



## cocis

Ok, just been looking thru some other threads, can I really just give her chicken wings, a cows leg (lol) etc, etc, will she not choke on the bones? Do you have to contain the dog where you usually feed them? I mean do you find bits of chicken skin and bones behind the sofa?........Am I sounding a bit dim? Just have visions of a nice summers evening, entertaining friends and Izzy comes strolling by with a pigs tail in her chops!


----------



## HandsOnPaws

BTW can i add, i never use kibble for training, it fills the dog up too quick and they won't be as willing to work for something they get anyway. Treats should be upped as the criteria is upped


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> Ok, just been looking thru some other threads, can I really just give her chicken wings, a cows leg (lol) etc, etc, will she not choke on the bones? Do you have to contain the dog where you usually feed them? I mean do you find bits of chicken skin and bones behind the sofa?........Am I sounding a bit dim? Just have visions of a nice summers evening, entertaining friends and Izzy comes strolling by with a pigs tail in her chops!


Yeah you can feed raw bones quite safely without them choking, never give cooked bones though! More info here!

I feed my lot outside so I don't have raw meat all over the house!


----------



## cocis

What supplements do you give your dogs? I'm presuming they need extra vitamins and minerals. What would be useful is a website giving a diet or menu sheet showing what proportion of meat, veg, rice etc your dog should have each day according to it's weight and breed! Now wouldn't that make life easier!


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> What supplements do you give your dogs? I'm presuming they need extra vitamins and minerals. What would be useful is a website giving a diet or menu sheet showing what proportion of meat, veg, rice etc your dog should have each day according to it's weight and breed! Now wouldn't that make life easier!


It would but it's not possible really as every dog is an individual! 

A good rough guide to start with is to feed 2-3% of the dogs ideal body weight. For a pup this will be based on it's ideal adult weight. At least to start with you should keep a close eye on the dogs weight and make sure they aren't losing or gaining too much weight.

A lamb chop or chicken wing is a good example of a good balance of muscle meat and bone.

Organ meat should be fed in much smaller portions.

I don't feed rice at all. Veg 2-3 times a week in variable portions.

Once you are feeding a raw diet you will be able to see from their stools what adjustments need to be made!

I don't give any supplements. If you feed a good raw diet you shouldn't need to use supplements!


----------



## cocis

Right, I feel that I have badgered you quite enough now so I will give it a go. Off down the butchers tomorrow, think I will get her a nice lamb chop! Thanks for your help.........don't think this is the last you'll hear from me, I'll be back to pick your brains again!


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> Right, I feel that I have badgered you quite enough now so I will give it a go. Off down the butchers tomorrow, think I will get her a nice lamb chop! Thanks for your help.........don't think this is the last you'll hear from me, I'll be back to pick your brains again!


Don't worry about it, PM if you want so we don't bore everyone else!


----------



## Guest

dh.dti said:


> or you could keep the raw feeding subject in the raw feeding threads...


Yeah, don't blame me, I didn't start it!


----------



## cocis

Ooops! Sorry


----------



## cocis

It did actually start out as a Dry dog food debate but when you get to my age you lose the plot................


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> It did actually start out as a Dry dog food debate but when you get to my age you lose the plot................


You can't have lost it too much to pick out such a gorgeous pup!


----------



## cocis

Speaking of which, take a look at these YouTube - 8wk blue merle border collie tricks and YouTube - 10 wk blue merle border collie tricks.
Tried to post them in my gallery but the files too big


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> Speaking of which, take a look at these YouTube - 8wk blue merle border collie tricks and YouTube - 10 wk blue merle border collie tricks.


Good videos! She's a clever pup!


----------



## gazt

we feed our dogs butchers tripe with wainwrights dry food they clean bowl up every night they look well cost about £ 5 00 aweek for two one lurcher and one bedlington


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> Speaking of which, take a look at these YouTube - 8wk blue merle border collie tricks and YouTube - 10 wk blue merle border collie tricks.
> Tried to post them in my gallery but the files too big


shes really clever for a pup her age  and beautifull


----------



## tootsiesmum

cocis said:


> Speaking of which, take a look at these YouTube - 8wk blue merle border collie tricks and YouTube - 10 wk blue merle border collie tricks.
> Tried to post them in my gallery but the files too big


wow do you think you could training Tootsie like that  she is beautiful, what a lovely dog.


----------



## cocis

tootsiesmum said:


> wow do you think you could training Tootsie like that  she is beautiful, what a lovely dog.


Thanks for all your lovely comments! If your poochie is eager to learn go for it! We are clicker training her at the moment and it works for us.
We just viewed other peoples videos on youtube and went from there. Saying that, I took Izzy to her first training class last night, mainly for the socializing, expecting her to be top of the class (what a proud mum!) and she went crackers! Firstly she wasn't keen on the tiny Shitzu, we got sin binned and sent to the other end of the room for distracting the Spaniel next to us, she smelt the liver treats the trainer had on the table from a mile away and tried to snaffle the lot! She wouldn't sit or lie down, basics she was doing at home on the first day we had her! She then did a spectacular 'crawl' all the way across the hall, I think she was expecting everyone to go "wow! What a clever dog" and the only reaction she got was the lady next to me asking if she had a problem with her legs?!!!! We did get a free clicker, training lead and Kong so I suppose we came away with something! It was her first trip out so I suppose there were distractions around which she hasn't encountered before. She is 'allowed out' officially tomorrow so hopefully by next weeks class she will have calmed down.............


----------



## Guest

I wouldn't be disheartened by that at all. You're very lucky that she has picked all those things up so quickly and obviously learnt them very well. She's bound to be distracted her first time out!


----------



## cocis

Back to the subject of the thread......... we feed Izzy Nutro Choice puppy and, ahem, Hills Science. Basically the breeder told us to get the Nutro if possible because all her dogs were on it and as they were all in stunning condition we took her advice. We order a 15k bag , from Germany (it was cheaper than the uk) and after a week she went completely off it! We tried her on Hills (vets recommendation...suckers!) and she has gone off that too. I vowed to stick to dry food. we fed our dear departed Zoe (Yorkie, we lost her in Jan, she was 16) on tinned and she was such a nervous eater she used to be so messy (we took her in when she was about 18months and she had food issues). Anyway, am now thinking of putting her on a raw diet............got as far as thinking about it, just not as far as the butchers


----------



## cocis

ajshep1984 said:


> I wouldn't be disheartened by that at all. You're very lucky that she has picked all those things up so quickly and obviously learnt them very well. She's bound to be distracted her first time out!


I know, she's only a baby after all. It was almost as if she was mocking the other pups though......"Ha! Sit? Can you do this though?!" LOL.


----------



## Guest

cocis said:


> I know, she's only a baby after all. It was almost as if she was mocking the other pups though......"Ha! Sit? Can you do this though?!" LOL.


LOL, I was well impressed when I watched the videos, Jayjay is 12 weeks and he knows sit, stand and recall and that's about it!  

As for the raw come on here and tell me how you're getting on with your research http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/4987-raw-feeding-discussion-10.html


----------



## tootsiesmum

cocis said:


> Thanks for all your lovely comments! If your poochie is eager to learn go for it! We are clicker training her at the moment and it works for us.
> We just viewed other peoples videos on youtube and went from there. Saying that, I took Izzy to her first training class last night, mainly for the socializing, expecting her to be top of the class (what a proud mum!) and she went crackers! Firstly she wasn't keen on the tiny Shitzu, we got sin binned and sent to the other end of the room for distracting the Spaniel next to us, she smelt the liver treats the trainer had on the table from a mile away and tried to snaffle the lot! She wouldn't sit or lie down, basics she was doing at home on the first day we had her! She then did a spectacular 'crawl' all the way across the hall, I think she was expecting everyone to go "wow! What a clever dog" and the only reaction she got was the lady next to me asking if she had a problem with her legs?!!!! We did get a free clicker, training lead and Kong so I suppose we came away with something! It was her first trip out so I suppose there were distractions around which she hasn't encountered before. She is 'allowed out' officially tomorrow so hopefully by next weeks class she will have calmed down.............


 sometimes I think they are just like kids - they know just how to show you up  We had to give up on the clicker as it frightened and distracted Toots 
Back to the thread  I have gone for the holistic approch for now and have just taken delivery of 2 bags of Luath's dry dog food - will probably last her a year but I will keep it in an air tight container. I still have some of the IAMS left so am just changing her over gradually although she picks out the new stuff first so hopefully that is a good sign. Her coat is great at the moment but that is probably because I have just given her a bath but I have also noticed less gunk around her eyes so hopefully it is the new food


----------



## Katyptaty

bullyb said:


> its all different flavours. its in frozen blocks and you just defrost as you need them, tripes a good one for putting weight on, have a look at this link....
> 
> UK BARF Club - The Ultimate BARF and Natural Feeding Guide for Cats and Dogs


Thanks for that  am looking at what's best for the new hound. He's getting a bone a week from the butchers, and I think I'd like to go down the BARF route with him, especially after doing a lot of home made foods for the old dog with his kidney failure to incite him to eat.

Newbie is on Burns at the moment, which he is doing well (too well?) on... Interesting to hear that it's not normally good for keeping weight on dogs... I think i must have a dog like my horse... gets fat on fresh air


----------



## Sitmus

James wellbeloved i'd say. 

My dog had an upset tummy, and had the runs. Fed him on james welbeloved and he was back to normal in a day.


----------



## iloveolga

I feed my Jack Rusell on Breederpack for working dogs at £ 15-00 a bag for 20 kg from our local farm shop. He Won't eat anything else.


----------



## rottsnwings

Mt two are fed on Dr Johns gold and they are both doing really well and are fit and active when i can get molly out of her bed


----------



## esiteans

I make my own food for my dog. Before I used to buy commercial dry food, but I think it's full of chemicals and you don't really know what's in it.
Recently I found this Healthy Food For Dogs: Homemade Recipes book and I'm trying to make food for my dog according to this. And I like it better than the dry food from the shop.
I'm sure there is a lot of similar books so maybe you can try one of them.


----------



## Spudlover

Burns has a new dry food with maize. Does anyone know if it's any good?

We used to feed our yellow lab (Spud) Nutro Choice lamb and rice for the first year of his life but he did number 2's about 5-6 times a day, and I thought that was a bit excessive. Would anyone agree?
Also he must have been fed up with eating the same food all the time!
So when he turned 1 - a month and a half ago - we switched to Burns fish and rice and he only goes 2-3 times a day now. 

I just read that it's good to change their food about every 3 months so they don't get bored and and because different foods provide different nutrients.


----------



## malcie5

Some people and new owners may view this thread and think that the supermarket dry food that they are giving their newest member to the family is going to be no good whatsoever, and whats the choice based on, is it nutrients, cost, breed etc. would be a good idea maybe to do a listing of puppies and older basic needs on whatever foods whether they need supplementing etc . Can see that this may also open a debatable subject, but thats me. lol


----------



## stephen22

Hello all

A lot of very interesting personal views. But is there any *science* available? Someone said they were ashamed of using Baker's food. We have always fed our Labs Eukanuba or James Wellbeloved and they have all been healthy with strong teeth and glossy coats etc etc etc. Yesterday in Asda I saw 15kg of their own complete dog food for £11 (James Wellbeloved £43). Is there any sound reason to suppose that my dogs will be any less healthy on this cheap food? What about Pedigree Chum? (£24)

Stephen


----------



## oliehaz

I feed my dog Royal Canin Max Breed she seems to be thriving on it


----------



## marlynaveve

stephen22 said:


> Hello all
> 
> A lot of very interesting personal views. But is there any *science* available? Someone said they were ashamed of using Baker's food. We have always fed our Labs Eukanuba or James Wellbeloved and they have all been healthy with strong teeth and glossy coats etc etc etc. Yesterday in Asda I saw 15kg of their own complete dog food for £11 (James Wellbeloved £43). Is there any sound reason to suppose that my dogs will be any less healthy on this cheap food? What about Pedigree Chum? (£24)
> 
> Stephen


When it comes to pet food I think you get what you pay for. Your dog will probably eat it (when they get hungry enough) but they wont get a lot of goodness out of it. IMO Pedigree foods are one of the worst. My new pup came to us with Royal Canin but I have just started to gradually change heron to Burns, she also has one meal of tripe and tripe and veg mix .
Mary
x


----------



## danandjerry

We feed Jerry our Springer Spaniel Wafcol Complete.
The vet recommended it because he's very hyper and it has less protein in which can have an effect. It seems to work and he woofs it down every morning


----------



## nellie_dean

If you want a good quality natural dry food at a silly price compared to foods like Burns and JBW/Eucanuba and the rest (£42+ for 15kg) then check out Pero chicken & Rice which is £25.99 at Pet Planet

Now to my way of thinking that's incredible value for a 'natural food' and I've certainly bought one to try!

To quote their info:

Ingredients: Rice, Chicken Meat Meal (20% min), Chicken Fat, Fish Meal, Beet Pulp, Vitamins and Minerals, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12, Biotin, Folic Acid, Nicotinic Acid (Niacin), Pantothenic Acid from Calcium Pantothenate, Deoderase  a natural extract from the yucca plant to aid in neutralising offensive odours.
PROTEIN 22%: OIL 12%: FIBRE 3.5%

Because Pero Chicken and Rice Dog Food does not contain any of the ingredients which often cause skin allergies or digestive disorders associated with dogs, such as wheat gluten, it is hypo-allergenic.

Pero Chicken and Rice Dog Food is free from artificial colourings and contains no added preservatives or genetically modified ingredients.

*Which begs the question, if Pero can sell a food like this at £26 why are other companies charging over £40???????*


----------



## Guest

nellie_dean said:


> If you want a good quality natural dry food at a silly price compared to foods like Burns and JBW/Eucanuba and the rest (£42+ for 15kg) then check out Pero chicken & Rice which is £25.99 at Pet Planet
> 
> Now to my way of thinking that's incredible value for a 'natural food' and I've certainly bought one to try!
> 
> To quote their info:
> 
> Ingredients: Rice, Chicken Meat Meal (20% min), Chicken Fat, Fish Meal, Beet Pulp, Vitamins and Minerals, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12, Biotin, Folic Acid, Nicotinic Acid (Niacin), Pantothenic Acid from Calcium Pantothenate, Deoderase  a natural extract from the yucca plant to aid in neutralising offensive odours.
> PROTEIN 22%: OIL 12%: FIBRE 3.5%
> 
> Because Pero Chicken and Rice Dog Food does not contain any of the ingredients which often cause skin allergies or digestive disorders associated with dogs, such as wheat gluten, it is hypo-allergenic.
> 
> Pero Chicken and Rice Dog Food is free from artificial colourings and contains no added preservatives or genetically modified ingredients.
> 
> *Which begs the question, if Pero can sell a food like this at £26 why are other companies charging over £40???????*


That's still quite high in protein,my two are fed Burns,
Breakdown,
Lamb & Brown Rice 15kg For Adult Dogs of All Ages.

Contains:
Brown Rice (min 54%) 
Lamb (min 21%) 
Oats 
Peas 
Sunflower Oil 
Seaweed 
Minerals & Vitamins 
Typical Analysis/100g:
Protein 18.5% 
Oil 7.5% 
Fibre 2.0% 
Ash 7.0% 
Vitamin A 8000 iu/kg 
Vitamin D 1500 iu/kg 
Vitamin E 50 iu/kg 
Moisture 8% 
Copper 15mg/kg 
Sodium 0.56% 
Calcium 1.39% 
Phosphorus 0.83% 
Magnesium 0.10%

My two have done well on Burns,so I'll stick with it


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## Nina

We feed our GSD Arden Grange since it has no additives or colourants, and our cats are feed on JWB if that helps :smile5:


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## janno

My 9 week old lab is on Beta puppy I was given it by the breeder but havent changed it as he loves it never leaves a crumb, I thought I would wait untill he was a bit older to change but the vet said leave him on that if he is fine with it.
What do you think?


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## stephen22

I was just curious to know whether anybody has any real evidence whatsoever that these expensive dog foods aren't a complete rip-off. What does anybody think would happen if I fed my dogs exclusively on Asda's own complete food at £11 a bag? (apart from a heavier wallet for me)?

Stephen


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## nellie_dean

I don't think the more expensive pet foods are necessarily a rip off (although some are more expansive than they should be)
What you need to look at is the ingredient list and then take price into consideration. 
A cheap food will almost certainly be using cheap ingredients, and that has consequences because the ingredients are going to be less digestible than the alternative (wheat is less digestible than rice) and by inplication therefore you have to feed more to get the same level of nutrients.
This means that your £11 bag of food - if you look at daily feeding costs - is not so cheap as it initially seemed.
Having said that, I used to feed a previous dog on Vitalin muesli flake which is a cheapy, and he did OK.
These days, having read up a bit on the subject, I prefer to know what meat and cereals are used in the food, so have gone a bit more upmarket. But I don't pay £40 or more for a bag. 
If you want a cheap food but one that lists the ingedients properly, then Pet Planet sell Gilpa Kennel at just over £12 a 15kg bag.
And for £26 for 15kg you can get Pero Chicken & Rice, which is a 'natural' preserved food which compares well to others selling for £42.
At the end of the day it's your choice!


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## Freya'n'Sassy

What is the best dried food? The ones that have proper meat at the top of the ingredients list... Dogs should eat meat not rice, cereal or other such stuff... And I won't start on the animal derivatives... YUK!


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## nellie_dean

Don't get too hung up about meat being the number one ingredient - that's easy enough to manipulate, by using several different cereal types at lower % - the importance with any dried food is that it provides reasonably complete nutrition (no diet, raw or dry can claim 100% for every dog) and not excessive protein, fat or carbs., all of which can contribute to health probs.
It would seem to be proven now that dogs do better kept reasonably lean by being fed a fairly light diet.


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## LucyJ

This site may have been mentioned earlier in the thread
apologies if it has
- it is interesting
Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble


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## Margaret

I don,t know whether anyone has tried pedigree better by Nature I started my dogs on that in the summer and it has suited them, their coats are shinny and they have plenty of energy and my bitch has managed to get back to full condition on this dry food after her pups. They do like the better by nature tin dog food as well.


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## nellie_dean

My only comments on Pedigree better by Nature would be 
1) It's probably a perfectly satisfactory diet (Pedigree do enough research to get this bit right) however.............
2) You have to distance the product from the words 'Nature' or 'Natural' once you start looking at what's in it (see this link)  and...
3) Bearing in mind the ingredients
Ingredients: cereals (min 4% rice in the yellow kibble, min 4% maize), meat and animal derivatives (min 4% beef in the beef kibble), oils and fats (min 0.1% sunflower oil), derivatives of vegetable origin, vegetable protein extracts, minerals, seeds (min 4% flaxseed in the yellow kibble), vegetables (min 4% carrots in the yellow kibble, 4% beans in the brown kibble), fruit (min 2% apple in the yellow kibble).

..... with EC permitted antioxidants BHA, BHT./ With preservatives (permitted EC additives): Potassium Sorbate

it looks very expensive when compared with a similar formulation costing half as much

But at the end of the day, if you've found a food that suits and can afford it then it's difficult to knock!


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## shirstella

hi, my labrador was fed on james wellbeloved for years due to no other food being suitable for her (i tried a few)and it was fine, i then came across vitalin lamb and rice and decided to try that, i can honestly say that i think it is as near to james wellbeloved as you can get, my lab was fine on it, anyhow after seeing how well my husbands dog was doing on a mole valley brand i now give that to all my dogs, not expensive either


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## sarahlou145

I have two westies who were previously fed on Bakers Complete, then james wellbeloved. The younger one developed bad itching and I changed to burns about 3 months ago, they both love it, have great coats, and hardly ever itch


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## jessejazza

Best dried complete?

None of them unless you're hoping your dog doesn't live that long or want expensive dentals.
The Problem with Ethoxyquin

Try some fresh meat and a bit of mixer or a Raw Meat Bone diet. Notice the difference in your dogs health and your purse.

Give a Lurcher a home and you won't have to shop for meat [for yourself or the dogs].


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## samiekam

that is wot i want 2 no-i feed mine on science plan but it is well dear-but i will give him wot ever is good 4 him-coz i dont eat crap so y should he:thumbup:


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## Ducky

i am sure all of these foods have been mentioned before but Burns, James Wellbeloved, Arden Grange are my top 3. All quite similar in quality and price. 

When it comes to recommending a dry food though, i would just say make sure you go for a good quality hypoallergenic food. There are many of these out there that are not as widely known. My familys pet shop have our own one called Macks Mix, which is arguably just as good as any of the named brand ones. As i am sure many other independent pet shops do too.


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## nellie_dean

Shop own brands can be just as good as some well known ones, most are made by a company called Golden Acres up in Preston (who make for Burns, Arden Grange and until recently I think, James Wellbeloved, though I believe Royal Canin make this at a new factory now) - GA have a recipe book and you just pick one out and they'll make a batch for a shop. They're based upon standard recipes for chicken and rice etc. and although not often what you'd call premium foods they're probably equivalent to a medium priced branded pet food.
The big example of shop own brand is Pets at Home who have a huge range of own branded pet food these days.
If you want more info on saving a few £s then try this link Pet Food Choice - Money saving tips


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## shazza1969

Hi Mine are fed Oscars its cheaper and its free delivery to my doorstep 
I know exactly what goes into the food its made in the uk and is human grade food another words you could it yourself and they are the only company who has an honest label to say what goes in their food and its not tested on animals


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## clueless

shazza1969 said:


> Hi Mine are fed Oscars its cheaper and its free delivery to my doorstep
> I know exactly what goes into the food its made in the uk and is human grade food another words you could it yourself and they are the only company who has an honest label to say what goes in their food and its not tested on animals


I have never heard of Oscars, could you put up the analyasis of it Please


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## jessejazza

I've enjoyed reading this post. I gave up on dry food after i read some of the health issues raised particularly on ethoxyquins and contaminated commercially produced food. It doesn't matter who the company are... any dried food has to contain preservatives to give it a shelf life of a year.

Since i put my two on local butcher mince and mixer i have noticed such a change in so many ways - coat, behaviour, etc. It may cost more but i know that they are less likely to suffer health problems.

On occasion as a Lurcher Zak provides the week's meat!


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## jilly40

i tried that pero it went straight thru my gsd n my other dogs fur came out in handfulls eek.ive got a quarter of a bag left gona throw it.there now on supadog sensative seems 2 suit them both its £20.54 from pets at home which i dont think is bad x


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## Kiskasiberians

shazza1969 said:


> Hi Mine are fed Oscars its cheaper and its free delivery to my doorstep
> I know exactly what goes into the food its made in the uk and is human grade food another words you could it yourself and they are the only company who has an honest label to say what goes in their food and its not tested on animals


Shazza, all pet food in EU has to use Human Grade food that's the law. All on-line companies will deliver to your door!!


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## nellie_dean

In relation to Oscars, it's very similar in formulation to several other good quality pet foods, but a bit more expensive than some.
Their 15kg Lamb & Rice is £39.95 which is a few £s less than Burns or James Wellbeloved, but more expensive than, say the Pets at Home Wainwright's food which is another 'natural' food and goes out at *£29.35* for 15kg (check out the range on their website www.petsathome.com
And of course you can get this delivered to your door if you don't live near a store :drool:


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## shazza1969

do they do foc delivery??


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## nellie_dean

shazza1969 said:


> do they do foc delivery??


Yes, if you spend over a certain amount (the website will tell you)
It's probably a case of buying food and a stock of treats or whatever to get the free delivery


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## Kelsey

garryd said:


> Whats the best dry dog food out there??? any thoughts?? i am feeding my dog james wellbeloved wich is good but dear to buywhat do you feed your dog and why !?? and how much is it !?


Hiya, new to the forum but thought I'd throw in an opinion! Personally, I think Arden Grange is the best pet food out there. Its human grade meat, hypoallergenic and not tested on animals like some other top brands. Phone them directly and ask for a sample - they will be happy to send a few. You can find out more on Natural Premium Dog Food & Cat Food From Arden Grange. Good luck!


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## jessejazza

For the dog's health i'd stay with plain fresh meat and mixer. Cheaper and i know exactly what is in their food. Have a quick read on my last post.


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## Kelsey

I think it depends alot on what suits the dog - the dog is bound to have the final say! I don't know much about raw feeding that lots of people have mentioned, but I know the nutrient levels and calorific values would have to be thought out to ensure a balanced diet is given. I would worry about bones and how they could cause injury and what comes out the other end too!! My two are quite happy on their complete Arden Grange anyway.


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## crawfom

I've found a brilliant new food called joe jacks. You can get it through their website - called joesnaturalpetstore - and my lab has never looked healthier. I have also just found out that they sell their wet food through Tesco, but don't understand why the dry isn't there as well. This is great as I can get extra trays when I forget to order


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## Camsie84

A very lovely lady at Arden Grange sent me some samples for Ted - have been slowly introducing them to his food, and so far so good!!


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## Mortlach

So what's the opinion on the muesli type cereals?


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## nellie_dean

Mortlach said:


> So what's the opinion on the muesli type cereals?


I used to feed Vitalin muesli type food to a previous dog and he did reasonably well on it, though to be honest I'm not sure he actually loved the food (!) but I think there are differences between these and the extruded foods and it's down to digestibility - muesli foods tend to be wheat based and wheat is not as digestible as cereals such as rice or maize, and I believe that the cooking and extruding process also makes the carbohydrate and protein more digestible.
As a result you generally have to feed more muesli food and get more poo out the other end!


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## AlexGSD

I would always say that Burns was the best however expensive. I have now started using Wainwirghts and my GSD's seem to love it and they look very healthy on it.


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## kazza1964

I have been changing all my dogs food to try to get them on the same one as I had 5 dogs on 4 different foods, I have at last got one that agrees with them all - Skinners Muesli & cheap too which comes in handy with 2 large breeds & 2 giant breeds that are still growing :thumbup:


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## swiss

Just weighing in with my two euros... bought a sack of Beta yesterday... chicken flavour IIRC. The furry lil' git wolfed down a huge bowlful then had hiccups for half an hour. Seems she likes it


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## fosse

There isn't a good dry food in my opinion. 

I feed all mine a prey model raw diet.


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## Danielle_Bee

I have a collie,she wont even touch the dry food,when we mix it in she spits them out of the bowl.currently feeding her pedigree but have tried some different ones like shops own brand,do you think we should keep trying other kinds?Surely it cant be healthy for her just eating the jellied stuff!!


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## Guest

Danielle_Bee said:


> I have a collie,she wont even touch the dry food,when we mix it in she spits them out of the bowl.currently feeding her pedigree but have tried some different ones like shops own brand,do you think we should keep trying other kinds?Surely it cant be healthy for her just eating the jellied stuff!!


Why don't you try nature diet it is a wet food and is a complete diet. 
No need for hard bits


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## Freyja

My lot have Red Mills greyhound food. They do different ones for racing a convalesing greyhounds which mine have. The 3 pups also have minced lambs hearts which they have raw mixed in with their dried food


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## Danielle_Bee

rona said:


> Why don't you try nature diet it is a wet food and is a complete diet.
> No need for hard bits


Thanks, I will give it a go 
shes a very fussy eater, so ill get back to you!!
xx


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## Daddydog

Hi again..

dont know if this helps, but before we got our "spuddy" I was frantic on reading up on what to feed him, and came across many many dog experts on youtube talking about doggy nutrition and what goes into various foods..

The one thing they all had in common, I found, was to avoid anything that had "derivatives" in it, and when I then checked various food types, and had a look at the ingredients on them closely, pedigree came out as having (What I consider) to be some of the cheapest, inedible ingredients, and contained derivatives, instead of actual "meal" (meaning meat from what I learned)



Danielle_Bee said:


> I have a collie,she wont even touch the dry food,when we mix it in she spits them out of the bowl.currently feeding her pedigree but have tried some different ones like shops own brand,do you think we should keep trying other kinds?Surely it cant be healthy for her just eating the jellied stuff!!


since we bought spuddy home in Nov 08, he was on Nutro puppy, but used to do a #2 up to 6 times a day, and never anything solid either, and we got him onto Burns food 4 months ago and within just a few weeks, his #2's went down to 2 or 3 a day, and all are now consistent too, and at more regular times.

In fact, our spuddy has lost some weight since being on the burns food, even though we now give him a Kong every day too, he's dropped about a kilo in 12 weeks....

Have to start feeding him fried mars bars soon if he lose's any more :lol:


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## shortbackandsides

"meat meal" as it is called is not what it sounds likethere was a thread on here recently which stated that it was in fact,in some cases,the carcassess of animals,including those that had been pts,(dogs and cats)including bags,collers etc!!! dont know how true this is:


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## Spudlover

aaah, that's disgusting!


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## jessejazza

Daddydog said:


> had "derivatives" in it, and when I then checked various food types, and had a look at the ingredients on them closely, pedigree came out as having (What I consider) to be some of the cheapest, inedible ingredients, and contained derivatives, instead of actual "meal" (meaning meat from what I learned


I've phoned Pedigree to find out what they put in the tin and they weren't very helpful... just said meat. If you have the ingredients i'd be grateful. I've been feeding mine on it for a few weeks but i'm not wanting to continue with it for long. I started feeding them butcher's pet mince but my greyhound after a couple of weeks decided she didn't like it. Then she wouldn't eat Chappie [seems to have a lot of maize in it which i don't like], which she had been eating happily before.

I have two re-homed dogs and wanted to get them onto prey model feeding but the lurcher doesn't like bones. For the moment i'm giving them tinned meat and mixer.

I thought a live prey model feeding might 'break the yoke'... pop into a pet shop and buy a rabbit or two and see how they get on!:lol:


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## jessejazza

Well... yes but i wanted to know where pedigree actually got there's from. All you get on the phone is someone who has been brainwashed into what to say - they don't know what is actually in the food.

I've seen that advert for an e-book before. Why sell an e-book? Burns claim to have additive free canned food - why do they not say buy pure mince from a butcher [it'll be cheaper!].

From what i can work out one will not get any real truthful answer to the ingredients. Chappie always used to be one of the ones that Vets recommended but that has got a lot of stuff like maize. A lot of the dry complete food uses beet pulp - what nutrition for a dog does beet pulp have.

I would be grateful if the member can say what is in Pedigree... that is what i dare to give my two dogs when i can't get the butcher's mince.


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## baillieswells

I feed mine Fish4Dogs Working. Protein is primarily from Salmon. Treen my eight month old Border Terrier loves it. It is worth remembering that food that is labelled for Working Dogs is VAT free. This doesn't mean that it is of a lower quality.


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## muse08

I feed mine on Gelert.My 3 dogs love it, and look well on it too.

Gelert Pet Nutrition for Dog Food , Puppy Food and General Pet Nutrition


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## StolenkissGerbils

jessejazza said:


> what nutrition for a dog does beet pulp have.


Well it's never a good thing to have in large amounts but other than just being a filler/bulker for dry kibble it does provide fibre. Pedigree food must have too much of it though - it gave my girl a lot of gas when I was feeding it to her years before I knew any better.


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## Daddydog

jessejazza said:


> Well... yes but i wanted to know where pedigree actually got there's from. All you get on the phone is someone who has been brainwashed into what to say - they don't know what is actually in the food.
> 
> I've seen that advert for an e-book before. Why sell an e-book? Burns claim to have additive free canned food - why do they not say buy pure mince from a butcher [it'll be cheaper!].
> 
> From what i can work out one will not get any real truthful answer to the ingredients. Chappie always used to be one of the ones that Vets recommended but that has got a lot of stuff like maize. A lot of the dry complete food uses beet pulp - what nutrition for a dog does beet pulp have.
> 
> I would be grateful if the member can say what is in Pedigree... that is what i dare to give my two dogs when i can't get the butcher's mince.


Exactly, pedigree will never tell you, or us either when we asked them, what was or is in their foods, and that alone was enough to make me look elsewhere.

I spoke to several of my own customers who are dog trainers and dog therapy experts who told me that they always recommend Burns due to the difference in ingredients, and how their dogs behaviour and toilet habits changed when switched to Burns too.

When we got Spud, he was on Nutro puppy, and was pooping 6 times a day, and it was never consistent and rarely solid...

I also spoke with the owner of a local pet shop who only sells 3 brands of food (Burns and 2 others) and he was approached many times by Pedigree to stock their foods but when he got some detailed wholesaler info on them, and the wholesale price list, he knew straight away that he would never stock it.

Wholesale, a 15kg bag of Pedigree will cost less than £10 to him....
Whereas a bag of Burns for example cost's him almost 4 times that.

Spoke to Burns, and they are extremely forthcoming with their ingredients, how its made and WHY it is not sold in the big chains like Pets at home etc..

I thought that was fairly cool of them to actually answer a simple question so openly, and the last time I went to pets @ home, I asked why dont they stock Burns and was told that Burns wont supply them.

The main reason I avoided pedigree, and ALL those cheap skanky brands really is that I was advised, and have read extensively to avoid anything that says "derivatives" on the ingredients list as this is pretty much the waste products not fit for human consumption... hence its soooo cheap.

Even some of the other dog owners I meet at our local park, they feed their dogs on various things like pedigree, butchers etc etc, and knowing what I learned, when I ask them how much the food cost's, and I here "about £20 a month" to feed an alsation, I do feel sorry for the dogs, knowing what they must be getting for such low value...

Although, saying that, I've also stepped in the remains of it a few times too by accident and its like a cow pat... and stinks!!! :lol:

A lot of the cheap foods, as mentioned by others contain a lot of "fillers" and undigestable corns meaning you have to feed your dog more of it, which is something we were worried about when we switched to burns because on Nutro, our spuddy was eating about 400g a day at 12months old, and was putting on weight fairly quickly, and since switching to Burns, they recommend he should get 300g a day, although he has lost 1kg in 12 weeks, poop's half as much, and doesnt have the runs every day of the week now..(Although he is only 16 months old and still growing, but vet says his weight is still normal for his age, so he may have lost some "excess")

I did read about Hills science plan being recommended by vets too as they get good commissions for selling it, and our vets also sells it, so I asked them what was in it and why they recomend it and got that "ermmmmmmmm" look in response followed by the default reply of "its a healthy balanced diet blah blah blah"

So, I'm not trying to scare you or anything, I'm just offering up my own findings in researching, and speaking with those "in-the-know" as I didnt know anything at all about dog food, and while I'm still no closer to being an expert, but I do feel appreciative of those I know giving me the wealth of their knowledge and experience to help me keep spuddy healthy.

It really makes me want to scream at peope in the supermarket now when I see a bag of pedigree in with their shopping too... Its hard to resist sharing knowledge like that, especially considering 18 months ago, I would have also grabbed for the pedigree bags knowing no better...

Here's a quick example...

Check out the Pedigree denta stix...

Now, my wife is a qualified dental nurse, and I showed her those in our local co-op, she looked on the back, saw the sugar type and content and threw them back on the shelf..

Promote's healthy teeth and gums..... ?? with a high sugar content???

Seems I'm in the wrong job, I should start marketing ketchup as flavoured toothpaste for kids to help promote daily brushing...

hey, sorry for the ranting, I just stopped in before going to bed and, as feared like the wife said, this place is addictive, there are so many things wrong in the pet world, it gets me really wound up...

I go sleep it off now.. niteee :Yawn:


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## nellie_dean

You have to be careful not to over-generalise about pet food companies and the various products out there. Yes, many do use animal derivatives which some would choose to avoid, but there's a whole host of products now using the more acceptable meat meal (dried meat) such as Burns, Arden Grange, Pets at Home brand, Skinners, Pascoes, gelert, James Wellbeloved etc etc and who also use natural preservatives - in fact the big companies are switching to these as well.

Pets at Home have a good range of natural foods under their own brand and at a good price (I feed their Wainwrights Light recipe which is naturally preserved, does not use animal byproducts and costs £14 LESS than an equivalent 15kg bag of Burns which I used to feed. My dog is looking much better on it as well, as lots of dogs go too thin on Burns).

For info on ingredients used in the UK (rather than the scare stories of US companies check out www.pet-food-choice.co.uk/pet_food_ingredients.htm


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## Kelsey

jessejazza said:


> Well... yes but i wanted to know where pedigree actually got there's from. All you get on the phone is someone who has been brainwashed into what to say - they don't know what is actually in the food.
> 
> I've seen that advert for an e-book before. Why sell an e-book? Burns claim to have additive free canned food - why do they not say buy pure mince from a butcher [it'll be cheaper!].
> 
> From what i can work out one will not get any real truthful answer to the ingredients. Chappie always used to be one of the ones that Vets recommended but that has got a lot of stuff like maize. A lot of the dry complete food uses beet pulp - what nutrition for a dog does beet pulp have.
> 
> I would be grateful if the member can say what is in Pedigree... that is what i dare to give my two dogs when i can't get the butcher's mince.


Isn't Beet Pulp fibre? I think I read somewhere that beet pulp helps slow the rate of food through the gut to help digestion and to help the dog absorb the nutrients.

I am not a fan of Pedigree - I think giving a dog Pedigree off the supermarket shelf is like giving a child a macdonalds! Macdonalds or Salad? Pedigree or Super Premium Dry? :nono:

We all watch what we eat nowadays, why shouldn't we watch what our dogs eat too.


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## Spudlover

From what I gather beet pulp is just to filler to increase the volume of the food but from a nutritional point of view it's useless...


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## nellie_dean

Eagle Pack in the US, who are a well respected supplier in the holistic end of the market say this about beet pulp, which seems pretty convincing as it's backed by clinical studies!

_Today science is touting the benefits of fiber in human diets to prevent chronic disease. Fiber has similar benefits in pet food diets.

Pharmacological doses of fiber* (less than 5%), that contains both rapidly and moderately fermentable fiber is recommended in foods for healthy pets. Beet pulp fits that description better than any other fiber*. Quality fiber aids in the management of diabetes, colitis and constipation. It absorbs water or gives it up, as necessary, for good health, and correct amounts regulate healthy transit time in the colon. When used correctly in pet food formulas, beet pulp is an excellent fiber source, a partial Prebiotic and aids in the prevention of the diseases noted. Research suggests it may aid in fighting colon cancer, decreases pathogenic bacteria and aids gut health. It is a recommended fiber for pets suffering from gastrointestinal issues*, IBD, etc.

Beet Pulp gently massages intestinal walls to remove mucus on a daily basis. If beet pulp is not used, very often mucus builds up on the intestinal wall and inhibits nutrient absorption. About every 30-days so much has built up, it lets go and comes out in the form of mucus covered stools.

*Small Animal Clinical Nutrition IV
Source: Nutrient Metabolism
Fructooligosaccharides and Lactobacillus acidophilus Modify Gut Microbial Populations, Total Tract Nutrient Digestibilities and Fecal Protein Catabolite Concentrations in Healthy Adult Dogs¹

Kelly S. Swanson,* Chrstine M. Grieshop, Elizabeth A. Flickinger, Laura L. Bauer,* JoMay Chow,** Bryan W. Wolf,** Keith A. Garleb,** and George C. Fahey, Jr.*²_


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## jessejazza

When i mentioned about Pedigree foods i was referring to their tinned meats rather than complete feed.

I've read the literature on complete feeds and i'm totally convinced that aside from obeisty and cancers that one hears/reads about - the preservatives (ethoxyquins) in dried complete feeds contribute through the build up of tartar to development of gum disease. HDA and HTA are the ones to look for in the ingredients i gather
http://www.avianweb.com/ethoxyquin.htm

I've got a dog that i can't give bones to [just won't be interested!], the butcher's pet-mince is a bit fatty i feel and so for the moment i'm giving tinned Pedigree Original. Both dogs love it but i wanted to know about possible long term effects. since putting them on meat and mixer i have noticed such a difference in their toileting and general behaviour that i'll never give a dog any complete feed again. My greyhound was rather constipated and my younger lurcher seemed to have a bladder problem. Due i believe to the long digestion rate of complete food.


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## nellie_dean

If a pet owner is worried about ethoxyquin in pet foods then there are plenty of alternatives, in fact not many UK manufacturers continue to use ethoxyquin as an antioxidant these days.

Can't say I agree with the link to tartar build up, my guess is that this would be more down to poor quality food ingredients than an antioxidant.

Pedigree is a strange choice as a basic food if ingredients is an issue. Not sure what's in their basic tin, but their more upmarket pouches are not what you'd call great quality - typical ingredient list shows just 4% meat and 8% veg, animal derivatives, vegetable derivatives (probably including soya which is not that digestible, bakery waste products and not a lot else!

With Beef, Vegetables and Pasta Pouch: Meat and Animal Derivatives (Including Min. 4% Beef, Min. 4% Fresh Meat), Vegetables (Min. 4% Carrots, Min. 4% Peas), Bakery Products (Min. 4% Cooked Pasta), Cereals, Vegetable Protein Extracts, Derivatives Of Vegetable Origin, Oils And Fats, Minerals.


----------



## thedogsmother

Just arranged for a rep to visit from Oscar, does anyone reccommend their dog food, he is on Hills Science at the moment but I had to pay over £40 for the last 15k sack I bought.


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## shazza1969

My dogs have always been fed Oscars first they started off on Chicken & Rice which is a gluten free food and now because they are older are on Pinnacle of Life and they are in very good condition according to my vet and its far cheaper than hills and delivered to your door FOC


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## pennycartledge

I feed my GSD with Burns adult dry food and nature diet - half and half. Burns costs around £22 per 7.5Kg which last me about four weeks.


----------



## loulou7480

Hi im new and was wondering what everyones thoughts were on james wellbeloved for my golden doodle.She is 18 weeks and i had her on bakers but have come to realise what a complete load of rubbish it is. All advice would be welcome.


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## crazybones

Orijen is the best dry food out there with out a doubt but it depends if u can afford just under 60 for a 13.5kg


----------



## shazza1969

JWB is made by Pedigree that would put me off straight away and its expensive


----------



## tashi

shazza1969 said:


> JWB is made by Pedigree that would put me off straight away and its expensive


It is not made by Pedigree, Mars bought the company and now control a lot of the dog food companies but it is not MADE by Pedigree I can assure you of that


----------



## Kelsey

loulou7480 said:


> Hi im new and was wondering what everyones thoughts were on james wellbeloved for my golden doodle.She is 18 weeks and i had her on bakers but have come to realise what a complete load of rubbish it is. All advice would be welcome.


Hi there Loulou. Welcome to the forum! JWB is one heck of an improvement on Bakers - which has got to be full of colourings?! Everyone has different views on pet nutrition, hence why we are all on here nattering and debating about it. Some people feed dry complete foods, some feed wet complete foods, some feed a mixture of both, some feed raw - the list is endless really!!

In my opinion, the best food at the best value is Arden Grange - without a doubt. Its super premium, hypoallergenic, is made with white rice instead of brown (so its less fatty) its also made with human grade meat - meaning, if we wouldn't eat it, then why should our dogs! They also produce tins now which I am hoping to try soon - I looked into these the other day - they contain a min 70% meat - which is brilliant! Also, as its so highly digestable and dence, you feed less than some of the bulkier foods AND there's less out the other end!!! Arden Grange do have samples, like most of the other companies - so if you fancy seeing if your dog likes it, give them a call. :thumbsup:


----------



## jasps

crazybones said:


> Orijen is the best dry food out there with out a doubt but it depends if u can afford just under 60 for a 13.5kg


On paper it does look the best. Suppose it depends on whether your dog can stomach it or not. Fergus seems to be doing very well on it at the moment, although he is still a little soft.

My previous dog had a sensitive stomach, no way he would have managed it. It took us ages (and a lot of mess) before we found a food (dry or wet) that suited him.

Adam


----------



## jessejazza

How long has Fergus been on it?

I have switched my two dogs [greyhound and lurcher] onto wet. The greyhound is 11yrs and i think she was a bit soft for 6-8 weeks. Now she is fine.

On dry complete she was a little constipated and No 1 was a bit concentrated. I'd say give Fergus a few weeks - maybe i'm paranoid but i think these dry complete feeds have ingredients to keep the dogs addicted. Switching food is like getting them off drugs!


----------



## jasps

jessejazza said:


> How long has Fergus been on it?
> 
> I have switched my two dogs [greyhound and lurcher] onto wet. The greyhound is 11yrs and i think she was a bit soft for 6-8 weeks. Now she is fine.
> 
> On dry complete she was a little constipated and No 1 was a bit concentrated. I'd say give Fergus a few weeks - maybe i'm paranoid but i think these dry complete feeds have ingredients to keep the dogs addicted. Switching food is like getting them off drugs!


Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. He is only 12 weeks old so we gradually moved him to Orijen over the course of two weeks. Don't get me wrong, he is not too bad, just a little soft. In the morning he is perfectly fine, just seems to be later at night.

Our previous dog had a very sensitive stomach so maybe I am just being a bit paranoid.

Never thought I would be spending a Friday night talking about doggy doos. :w00t:

Adam


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## gsmagoo2

I have just recently switched my dogs from Royal Canin to Life's Abundance. And they love it. We have no more yeasty ears, and we have firm stools. It is human grade food. You can have them do a food comparison on the food that you are feeding compared to Life's Abundance, they will compare the two in detail. And one of the great things is, is that it is delivered right to your door. I highly recommend their food products. You can check it out here at: Welcome to Trilogy


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## kareng

I switched my gsd from pedigree chum (which we were told is the only food she will eat) to wanwrights complete. Im still gradulaly mixing it into her last food till she gets used to it, but she seems to love it, and her poos arent runny anymore lol


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## mara

I am considering switching my 2 to Arden Grange as it does seem good quality and for a good price.

I was wondering if anyone near me could point me to a breeder or someone who can get it for me at a reduced rate (no VAT). I live in High Wycombe.

Many Thanks


----------



## kellybaker

Hi all I am currently feeding my 7 month pug on Trophy, we are finishing up the puppy at the mo and this is the ingrediants:

chicken meat (40%)
ground whole yellow maize
brown rice (15%)
chicken oil
egg powder
sunflower oil
beet pulp
salmon oil
brewers yeast
vitamins & minerals
fructo-oligosaccharides (fos)
antioxidants addetocopherol rich extracts of natural origin (vitamin e)

typical analysis:

protein 30%
oil 20%
fibre 2% 
ash 7.5% 
vitamin a 15,000 iu/kg
vitamin d3 1,800 iu/kg
vitamin c 50 mg/kg 
vitamin e (as a-tocopherol acetate) 120 mg/kg
copper as cupric sulphate 22mg/kg
plus other essential vitamins and minerals

moving on to the adult premium maintenance which contain:

supreme basmati rice (34%)
lamb meat (29%)
ground wholegrain yellow maize
chicken oil
beet pulp
sunflower oil
seaweed
salmon oil
vitamins & minerals
glucosamine & chodroitin
fructo-oligosaccharides (fos)
antioxidants added: tocopherol rich extracts of natural origin (vitamin e)

typical analysis:

protein 21%
oil 10%
fibre 2.5%
ash 7.5%
vitamin a 14,000 iu/kg
vitamin d3 1,800 iu/kg
vitamin c 50 mg/kg
vitamin e (as a-tocopherol acetate) 110 mg/kg
copper as cupric sulphate 22mg/kg
plus other essential vitamins and minerals

If anyone with the knowledge could tell me if this is a good food or not as i have read all the posts and have seen that no one else feeds this.

Thankyou


----------



## jasps

If you believe the "experts", meat should be the first ingredient which is not the case of the Trophy adult food you mention. I know Trophy do a dry food where meat is the primary ingredient because my in-laws feed their dog on it. You should also avoid foods that contain fillers that have no nutritional benefit i.e. corn (maize). Maize is third on the list so it is probably quite a high percentage of the food. Rice and potatoes seem to be considered ok because they are a good source of vitamins and minerals that are nutrionally beneficial for dogs.

There is so much conflicting information out there, there seems to be no definite answer and lots of differing opinions. Just remember that dogs are carnivores so meat would be their primary food group in the wild.

I would go with the best food you can afford, remembering that just because it is expensive doesn't neccessarily mean it is the best quality. Check out Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost for more information. I used this site as the basis for further research. I decided on Orijen and fingers crossed, my puppy is doing very well.

Adam


----------



## Ducky

i just wanted to point out that dogs arent actually carnivores, they are technically omnivores. :thumbup:


----------



## jasps

Ducky said:


> i just wanted to point out that dogs arent actually carnivores, they are technically omnivores. :thumbup:


There's always one  ok, i'll rephrase, in the wild, canines primarily eat meat. Yes, I suppose the domesticated dog would be considered an omnivore, however, most wild dogs, not feral, are categorised as carnivores.


----------



## Ducky

i just wanted to be annoying


----------



## kellybaker

Right ok my mind boggles now 

I really want to feed my pug on a good quality food, I have thought about barf but I know that she is too sensitive for this as we have given her a raw lamb bone and she was sick after 5 mins of being given it, so not good.

I have been looking at ingrediants in all different foods and am so confused now as I dont understand half of what is written there.

So please please can somebody help me in choosing a good food for my pug and I would also love to hear from other pug owners on what they feed their pug(s).


----------



## nellie_dean

Hi
If you want an overview of what's available in complete foods then try www.pet-food-choice.co.uk
There's reviews of several brands and recommendations


----------



## ifudontrescuedontbreed

I am a convert to CSJ - it is so super. There's something for every pocket- my friend has put her lab on the cheapest - CHamp at £9.45 per 15kg and his digestion is SO much better.

I have my boy on the CP range which is more expensive but SO much cheaper than arden etc etc - I've tried everything and the conditin that CP gives is brilliant.

I can't stress how much you should try CSJ. You won't regret it. Google it and see if you have a stockist near to you (mine is super - so friendly and helpful - and she delivers for free!)


----------



## baillieswells

jasps said:


> There's always one  ok, i'll rephrase, in the wild, canines primarily eat meat. Yes, I suppose the domesticated dog would be considered an omnivore, however, most wild dogs, not feral, are categorised as carnivores.


Yes, but many carnivores such as lions first eat the stomach contents which contains all sorts of material before consuming the meat and bones.


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## Kiskasiberians

baillieswells said:


> Yes, but many carnivores such as lions first eat the stomach contents which contains all sorts of material before consuming the meat and bones.


Wild canines and felines actually discard the stomach contents by tearing it and shaking it out and normally eat the internal organs first.


----------



## Dors

We became totally disillusioned with complete dog food and now cook for our adult dogs. We give some raw but on the whole most is cooked. Lots of veg, people graded meat, poultry etc, we add bran. Eggs, yogurt + cheese make up the protein. Dogs are much happier, healthy and never leave a crumb. It might be more work, but well worth the effort. It is an alternative to feeding totally raw.


----------



## nellie_dean

We've switched dry foods to Whites Chicken & Rice - it seems to tick all the boxes; natural, free of nasties and sells at under £30 for 15kg. It might be my imagination but it actually smells nicer than some of the other premim foods we've tried over the last 12 months. There's more info and you can buy discount at www.pet-pantry.co.uk


----------



## gsmagoo2

I switched my dogs over to Life's Abundance. I am extremely pleased with it. And the dogs really love it. The company will do a food analysis between Life's Abundance and whichever food you choose. Just send them an email and they will send the analysis back to you. Also, I love the fact that it is delievered fresh right to your door. If you choose to do an autoship, which is have it delivered automatically how ever often you choose, then it is cheaper that way. But over all....I've been very impressed. They have dry and canned food, not only for dogs, but also cats. The website is Welcome to Trilogy then click on pets.
They have tons of information!!


----------



## gsmagoo2

I recommend trying Life's Abundance. It's very nurtritional and my dogs really love it. They will do a dog food analysis for you between LIfe's Abundance and the food of your choice, just send them an email and they will send the analysis back to you. Also, they deliver the food right to your door, and if you choose to have autoship, it is cheaper. I've been very impressed with the food. They have canned and dry. Here is the website: Welcome to Trilogy then click on pets.



kellybaker said:


> Right ok my mind boggles now
> 
> I really want to feed my pug on a good quality food, I have thought about barf but I know that she is too sensitive for this as we have given her a raw lamb bone and she was sick after 5 mins of being given it, so not good.
> 
> I have been looking at ingrediants in all different foods and am so confused now as I dont understand half of what is written there.
> 
> So please please can somebody help me in choosing a good food for my pug and I would also love to hear from other pug owners on what they feed their pug(s).


----------



## dogmatix

Has anyone mentioned the campaign for real petfood Campaign for Real Pet Food. Just for my four penneth, I've just started mine two springers on Barking Heads. They had been on Nutro for years but I wouldn't touch it now Mars got their hands on it. They have already messed about with the formula and a lot of pet shops have stopped stocking it. I tried them on Orijen but they aren't particularly fond of fish and ate the adult under protest most of the time. I think they missed the carbohydrate ! So I tried samples of Barking Heads and they wolfed it down like they used to with the Nutro. There is 50% lamb and also a mix of rice and oats which I personally think is better than just rice. They seem to be doing great on it so far and I'm pleased after the Nutro setback they are finally settled on something.


----------



## Daddydog

gsmagoo2 said:


> I switched my dogs over to Life's Abundance. I am extremely pleased with it. And the dogs really love it. The company will do a food analysis between Life's Abundance and whichever food you choose. Just send them an email and they will send the analysis back to you. Also, I love the fact that it is delievered fresh right to your door. If you choose to do an autoship, which is have it delivered automatically how ever often you choose, then it is cheaper that way. But over all....I've been very impressed. They have dry and canned food, not only for dogs, but also cats. The website is Welcome to Trilogy then click on pets.
> They have tons of information!!





gsmagoo2 said:


> I recommend trying Life's Abundance. It's very nurtritional and my dogs really love it. They will do a dog food analysis for you between LIfe's Abundance and the food of your choice, just send them an email and they will send the analysis back to you. Also, they deliver the food right to your door, and if you choose to have autoship, it is cheaper. I've been very impressed with the food. They have canned and dry. Here is the website: Welcome to Trilogy then click on pets.


There seems to be a LOT of SPAM on the internet for this stuff, so if this is how they are getting their advetising, then I'd avoid them completely.

I wonder if they are aware that people are spamming for them, as its often the case that the people they pay to "market" their website are "off-shore" and just spam like crazy.


----------



## gsmagoo2

Daddydog said:


> There seems to be a LOT of SPAM on the internet for this stuff, so if this is how they are getting their advetising, then I'd avoid them completely.
> 
> I wonder if they are aware that people are spamming for them, as its often the case that the people they pay to "market" their website are "off-shore" and just spam like crazy.


I actually am not spamming,,,as you say,,, The question was asked and I gave my opinion about the food I feed to my dogs, as well as where they can purchase it. There is tons of information on the foods that they have, so it's totally up to whoever, if they want to check it out or not. You can also request to have complete petmart order the food, and then you can just purchase it at the store, if you would like. It is a holistic dog food, and my dogs do very well on it. And the beet pulp is a great digestive ingredient.


----------



## Kiskasiberians

gsmagoo2 said:


> I actually am not spamming,,,as you say,,, The question was asked and I gave my opinion about the food I feed to my dogs, as well as where they can purchase it. There is tons of information on the foods that they have, so it's totally up to whoever, if they want to check it out or not. You can also request to have complete petmart order the food, and then you can just purchase it at the store, if you would like. It is a holistic dog food, and my dogs do very well on it. And the beet pulp is a great digestive ingredient.


Actually you are spaming as most of the people that you "advise" to try this food are UK based and have no access to the food you quote. However, keep mentioning it on forums like this it increases the google hit rate!!


----------



## Daddydog

Kiskasiberians said:


> Actually you are spaming as most of the people that you "advise" to try this food are UK based and have no access to the food you quote. However, keep mentioning it on forums like this it increases the google hit rate!!


Indeed, I run many large communities myself, and I know when somebody is there for the spam and there to actually join in and take part. Thanks for backup Kiska :thumbup:


----------



## jessejazza

[/QUOTE And the beet pulp is a great digestive ingredient.[/QUOTE]

Dogs are best fed on raw meat so... i don't know where someone has tried to convince you that beet pulp is good other than a low quality dry dog food manufacturer


----------



## gsmagoo2

jessejazza said:


> [/QUOTE And the beet pulp is a great digestive ingredient.


Dogs are best fed on raw meat so... i don't know where someone has tried to convince you that beet pulp is good other than a low quality dry dog food manufacturer[/QUOTE]

Maybe this article will give you some insite. And beet pulp is a good ingredient for dogs...and it is in very high quality dry dog food. There are many high quality dog foods out there, so check the ingredients before you purchase. I myself am very please with the ingredients that are in the food that my dogs are eating. And they are pleased with the food as well. I have not criticized anyone for feeding their dogs whatever food they are feeding them. A question was asked, and I only offered my opinion. I did not push anyone to buy the food. Everyone should be respectful to others, especially when asking a question and looking for replies.

Here is an article that you may want to check out....every type of food has it's pros and cons.....and as the dog owner, it's your decision to choose what to feed them, based on your opinions about a certain food.
Raw Meat Debate â Should You Feed it to Your Dog?


----------



## CULLEYDOG

Got to page 5976 and got bored, so I skipped to the end to add my own thoughts.

We tried our SBT on a huge variety of dried food in the first few months we had him. He'd been on a diet of chicken, rice, scrambled egg, tuna, and cheese at the breeders so it was a gradual and very expensive first few weeks - getting him used to eating what I would call "dog food". 
We discovered that:

Bakers gave him spots/lumps

Pedigree of all types made his poo runny and stinky.

Iams didn't interest him at all, and Science Diet, James Wellbeloved, Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Purina, etc etc etc all gave him the squirts/dandruff/spots/skin problems/itching/etc etc etc.

We tried them all, and in a moment of exasperation and cheapness bought him a small bag of Morrisons My Dog.

Ingredients as follows :

Don't know - 100%

Dog likes it, eats it, is fit and healthy, and has none of the symptoms the other foods gave him, so.........

Before anyone jumps down my throat and calls me irresponsible for feeding my dog meat flavoured cardboard - it doesn't matter.

Each to their own, each dog will do well on a certain food and poorly on others, so try them all and decide for yourself.

BTW I've just started making dog food from ground chicken necks and meat 'leftovers' from the butcher, cabbage, carrots, potatoes, parsnips, porridge oats, tuna, cheese, and goats milk. Not all at once of course, and I'm still experimenting, but both my dogs eat everything I give them and aren't showing any signs of ill health, weakness, or dandruff (which one of them was starting to get) and the female is putting on weight at a good rate after giving birth to 7 puppies 6 weeks ago.

I'd better get off to the raw food forum.


----------



## gsmagoo2

CULLEYDOG said:


> Got to page 5976 and got bored, so I skipped to the end to add my own thoughts.
> 
> We tried our SBT on a huge variety of dried food in the first few months we had him. He'd been on a diet of chicken, rice, scrambled egg, tuna, and cheese at the breeders so it was a gradual and very expensive first few weeks - getting him used to eating what I would call "dog food".
> We discovered that:
> 
> Bakers gave him spots/lumps
> 
> Pedigree of all types made his poo runny and stinky.
> 
> Iams didn't interest him at all, and Science Diet, James Wellbeloved, Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Purina, etc etc etc all gave him the squirts/dandruff/spots/skin problems/itching/etc etc etc.
> 
> We tried them all, and in a moment of exasperation and cheapness bought him a small bag of Morrisons My Dog.
> 
> Ingredients as follows :
> 
> Don't know - 100%
> 
> Dog likes it, eats it, is fit and healthy, and has none of the symptoms the other foods gave him, so.........
> 
> Before anyone jumps down my throat and calls me irresponsible for feeding my dog meat flavoured cardboard - it doesn't matter.
> 
> Each to their own, each dog will do well on a certain food and poorly on others, so try them all and decide for yourself.
> 
> BTW I've just started making dog food from ground chicken necks and meat 'leftovers' from the butcher, cabbage, carrots, potatoes, parsnips, porridge oats, tuna, cheese, and goats milk. Not all at once of course, and I'm still experimenting, but both my dogs eat everything I give them and aren't showing any signs of ill health, weakness, or dandruff (which one of them was starting to get) and the female is putting on weight at a good rate after giving birth to 7 puppies 6 weeks ago.
> 
> I'd better get off to the raw food forum.


Congrats to finding something that works for you and your dogs. You are absolutely right, you have to just try them and see what works for them. Whether it's dry, can, or raw. Kind of like feeding a newborn,,sometimes they have to try different kinds of milk to find which works best for them. 
Congratualtions on your litter~


----------



## jessejazza

Culleydog

All i'd say in the first few months of having your dog is that you perhaps switched diet too much. Runny poo is a sign that it is going through the system too quick. I had this with my greyhound who was fine after taking her off dry complete - until i changed the meal. Then back being fine again. I'm keeping her on Pedigree with mixer now as she is an older girl and i can be sure of supplies.


----------



## crawfom

Well said. Where do people get the idea that sugar beet pulp is poor quality?
In the same way people don't trust big companies for their dishonest labelling, some small companies are scaremongering to try and make themselves out to be different.
My boys get a good quality natural food and it works brilliantly - and has sugar beet in it!


----------



## CULLEYDOG

jessejazza said:


> Culleydog
> 
> All i'd say in the first few months of having your dog is that you perhaps switched diet too much.


I tried him for a few weeks on each type of food. A week changing from one to another, then 3 weeks on just that food, or however long it took for him to get bored with it, or develop any negative symptoms. The Morrisons My Dog seemed to satisfy him and not cause any problems, and he didn't lose any weight so we stuck with it.
I thought it had started giving him dandruff recently but that was my mistake, it was actually Tescos dry food (all looks the same when you it's in the containers !)
He's back on Morrisons now, and we're gradually introducing various raw meats, including chicken necks, along with some vegetables, eggs, cheese and oats. I hope to have them both on some sort of BARF diet in the next month or so, and if I can get a decent grinder I'll be giving it to the pups as well.


----------



## jessejazza

A few weeks [like 3-4?] isn't that long for a dog to get used to if they have a sensitive stomach. It took my greyhound closer to 8-10 weeks to get settled on the biscuit i'm giving her. One's judge is the coat and No: 2s. The No: 2s gradually got firmer and firmer. I don't know what dry complete does to a dogs digestive system but they do need a bit of time to 'detox.' I a dog is used to bit of change and is young like my lurcher it doesn't matter so much it seems.

Let me know what sort of grinder you get - i've been after one myself.


----------



## CULLEYDOG

which is exactly why forums like these are so useful. I took all my feeding advice from the local vet when we first got the dog, now we go a bit further afield when we need help or advice


----------



## jessejazza

I put it this way!

Veterinary Surgeon means exactly that. Good surgeon's who carry out surgery on animals. Some knowledge of diet is accumulated in practice but tends to be recommendations (like Burns or whatever that they are contractually signed up to). [ A few may be nutrition specialists!]

Orthapaedic Surgeon (i've got an operation coming up) - skilled on limb surgery and may know a bit about nutrition.

I think that is a fair balanced analogy.


----------



## Craig83

My dog is on royal canin, pro plan AND james wellbeloved! Iv only had her 7 weeks and she's just started eating on her own without me on the floor with her lol! I figure its no bad thing having her on three foods as its easier to remove one from the mix than to change it altogether. I don't mind keepin three types of food and weighing them out etc, she's super fit, very healthy, a good weight for her age and size and her stools are the right size, shape, color and consistencey


----------



## Debi

my mum feeds both her rough collies on Oscars. her eldest dog is pretty much allergic to everything. basically every type of dog food had something in it that he was allergic, which explains why he was a miserable grumpy dog and his immune system was overloaded. anyway she swears by Oscars and both her dogs are in great condition and the grumpy one is like a puppy again. once my pup Max is older I will be changing both of my dogs to this. they also do cat food.


----------



## Animals548

probably pedigree or iams


----------



## Animals548

well come check out my pictures of my dog he is drinking out of a baby bottle


----------



## Guest

Animals548 said:


> probably pedigree or iams


I would avoid both of these, Iams tests on animals and pedigree is only 4% meat


----------



## shez

I've always fed my dog on Bakers complete.Never had any problems.
Good Luck.


----------



## nellie_dean

It's a good job there's plenty of brands out there, and to suit both poor (that's me!) and rich. At the end of the day a complete pet food will give a dog the nutrients that it needs - but what the pet food manufacturers don;t seem to realise is that if they use cheap ingredients then the food should be inexpensive. Although some are, there's a lot of very average foods at expensive prices.
Some small companies, like Whites which I've started feeding seem to be getting the balance right - a natural food (which I make the choice to feed!) and under 30 quid a big bag if you shop around. I get mine from Pet Pantry


----------



## david3092

hi everybody i am having problems with 5 14 week old CKCS whereby she is no choosy about what she eats we have tried hills eukenbu and various other dried food but she will not eat it at the moment we are giving her cooked mince we have also tried butchers puppy food to no avail any suggestions will be gratefully recieved:confused1:


----------



## Luvdogs

AlexGSD said:


> I would always say that Burns was the best however expensive. I have now started using Wainwirghts and my GSD's seem to love it and they look very healthy on it.


I was thinking of trying my labs on this as it's cheaper than Burns.
Arden Grange is good but i found the weight was creeping on the Labs and they were on the light version!

I also mix in Nature diet


----------



## princessx87

Hi, i have tried and tested loads with my staffy, And nothing seem's to have worked for a long while, We was being sick if we gave him, the dearer brand named dry food and even tried him on these's meaty mircowave dinners you can get from [email protected] £0.60 for one! But after 2 months of him eating that the sickness came floodin back, So after Months of trying my OH took him to the vets, Everything came back fine, So we was back to hunting for more dog foods! Then we found a cheaper brand name WAGG'S its does all depend on where you buy it but the last month asda have been selling a 15kg (i think) for around £15.50 and tesco's done the same brand but bigger bag (17kg) for £15.29 This stuff is great! No more sickness and my dogger loves it! [email protected] does sell it but the smallest bag (12kg) was around a week ago £16.99hmy:..... Maybe this could be something your dog gets on with!

Hope this has helped! 
sorry for the essay! lol xx


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## ElliesBoss

I'm going to try my Ellie (Rottie x Lab) on James Wellbeloved LARGE kibble just to try and stop her gulping her food down. Tried her with a handful the other week and it seemed to work. She has to chew it!!


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## Daddydog

ElliesBoss said:


> I'm going to try my Ellie (Rottie x Lab) on James Wellbeloved LARGE kibble just to try and stop her gulping her food down. Tried her with a handful the other week and it seemed to work. She has to chew it!!


Hi Elliesboss

Instead of changing the food, have you ever seen something called a "Brake-fast bowl" ?

Our spud used to practically inhale his meals and he's on Burns adult food which isnt small, but since serving it in a brake-fast bowl, it now takes him a good 5 minutes to eat his meals.

The other good side to it is that the bowls are designed to actually slide around the floor, thus making them work for it more and slowing down their eating.


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## nellie_dean

I'd endorse the view that a large kibble does the trick. We fed ours on Wainwrights Light which is a larger kibble than Burns and most of the others, and it really does slow down the eating process, which I guess is better for digestion as well!


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## david3092

morning all
i am having problems finding a suitable dry food for our Ckcs the only problem with trying different types of dried food the cost of the packets only to find that the puppy will not eat it wouldnt it be good if the manufacturers were able to make up small packets so if the puppy likes the product we could then purchase the bigger packets


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## Guest

david3092 said:


> morning all
> i am having problems finding a suitable dry food for our Ckcs the only problem with trying different types of dried food the cost of the packets only to find that the puppy will not eat it wouldnt it be good if the manufacturers were able to make up small packets so if the puppy likes the product we could then purchase the bigger packets


If you contact the companies, most of them will send you out a free sample.


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## jessejazza

Only thing with the free samples is that they are barely a meal. I've had them to see what the kibble is like.

I suggest deciding which manufacturer you like and buying one of their smaller packs [2.5, 3.0, 4.0 KG] rather than the 15 KG. Skinners, Burns, Wagg do them. That way you won't buy a 15 kg and then discover they don't like it.


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## Guest

i'm pretty much a novice dog breeder, but my bro breeds labs.
I should tell him to get hi ass on here!

ANYWAY here is his list of GOOD dog foods...

*The more expensive:*
Burns
Arden Grange
Nutrience
Hills
Pro-plan
Eukanuba
Orijen
Almo Nature
Robbies
Royal Canin 
JWB 
Nutro (although after reading some reports he has his reservtions at the moment)
Laughing dog

*Cheaper but still good brands*

Pero organic (more of a medium price brand)
Beta
Autarky
gusto (very very cheap - made by autarky - still a v good food!)
Chappie!!!!

My brother feeds all his pups and pregnant/nursing bitches on Burns, His stud on Autarky, to get the into show condition he feeds burns, but their main maintenance diet is actually GUSTO! cheap as chips, but beatiful coats, beautiful teeth, small poops, no smelly wind (a blessing with 7 labradors!) etc you gt the idea... Its the budget version of autarky which in itself isnt expensive, (like beta is purinas budget brand). And better still he has it elivered each week with his tesco shopping! its around £5 for a £10 kg bag!

I'm trying to get my pup to accept dry burns, but he will still only eat it if its soaked and mixed with pet mince. So i' looking at swapping him to naturediet wetfood. Typicl fussy stubborn terrier so i'm told lol!


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## Guest

hi everyone,my first post. i've a staffie cross with god knows what that we got from our localish blue cross centre.anyway when we got him he was fed on hills science plan so we continued him on it for a few weeks.after looking at posts on here i changed him onto jwb and he's doing great on it.
what are peoples opinions on the wagg dry foods? i aint seen alot about them to be honest,but i suspect as it is very cheap it aint gonna be very good.


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## haeveymolly

sallyanne said:


> Mine were fed Beta puppy by there Breeders,we weaned them over to Burns Mini Bites when we brought them home,Still on Burns but the Adult Version.
> 
> They have done well on it,very little in the way of tummy upsets.


Burns definetely, we started feeding burns when our dog was ill with an enlarged heart, we put both our springers on it, the ill one was the one we could see the difference in mostly the vet had told us his meds had to be cut down he was on 13 tablets a day and this condition can only get worse so the dose could not be increased cos he was on maximum we tried to reduce but he just coulnt cope, we was advised burns and within 2ws his meds reduced by 2 a day,and i believe we owe the extra time we had him with us to burns.

When we chose our puppy i bought burns mini bites for the breeder to feed her she is now 7mths old and is a much calmer puppy as there is no additives in it, her growth has been much slower Mr John Burns is a vet and promotes slow growth in puppies as too fast growth can cause skeletal problems later in life. I think the best indication of how natural burns is, is the waste, only little hard poos to pick up:thumbup:


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## kathryn773

billyboysmammy said:


> gusto (very very cheap - made by autarky - still a v good food!)


Very interesting. I am taking Bobby off gusto as he is having anal gland problems. I have been advised by someone who knows more than I that gusto is so cheap because its basically akin to floor sweepings. 'MEAT AND ANIMAL DERIVATIVES' is the first listed ingredient, which could be toe nails, skull etc. It, in their opinion is not a good food at all.


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## Guest

You have to remember what a dog eats though naturally. They dont need to have fillet steak, yet they do need Bone, hooves, offal etc - which is what most meat and animal derivatives comes from (although i agree some of it is just crap).

As i said this is the list reccomended by my borther, and he uses gusto as a basica maintenance diet for his showdogs. what suits one will not suit all.


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## nellie_dean

haeveymolly said:


> Burns definetely, we started feeding burns when our dog was ill with an enlarged heart, we put both our springers on it, the ill one was the one we could see the difference in mostly the vet had told us his meds had to be cut down he was on 13 tablets a day and this condition can only get worse so the dose could not be increased cos he was on maximum we tried to reduce but he just coulnt cope, we was advised burns and within 2ws his meds reduced by 2 a day,and i believe we owe the extra time we had him with us to burns.


Burns is good, but doesn't suit all dogs - many lose weight on it. THere are, thankfully a lot of natural foods on the market these days (a pleasant trend!) and one like Wainwrights from Pets at Home is a case in point - excellent quality, natural and around £13 a bag cheaper because they don't have wholesalers taking a cut of the profits! THere are smaller companies like Whites Premium as well, who don't have the overheads of companies like Burns or Arden Grange etc and therefore can offer a good deal on natural foods.

At the end of the day it's simply a case of finding the food that suits your pet - and of course that's not always as simple as we'd like!


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## jessejazza

You say Burns is good! All dry complete has the same level of preservatives to provide the shelf life of a year.

e.g. Chicken and brown rice
brown rice 63% (min!), chicken 20% (min), oats, peas, chicken oil, sunflower oil, seaweed, minerals and vitamins.

Say a 7.5kg bag lasts 2 medium sized dogs for a week. 20% of 7.5kg is 1.5kg (3.3 lbs)
I give my two 3lbs meat per day and no antioxidants to provide cancer later.

I could cook some rice and add 20% meat in the kitchen at a fraction of their cost.


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## rictic

i use royal canin golden retriever adult. but only cos i have forever.

the science of dog food is quite complicated.

some digestive systems are different than others. adults need less calories that pups etc.

the better ones have probiotics in them which help a lot with digestion.
as can natural unsweetened yoghurt, it contains good bacteria.

but if a dog is doing good on a food why change it?

remeber dogs dont have much of a sense of taste,they rely more on smell.


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## Lynsey191

The best dry foods out there (in my opinion) are : Hill's Science Plan, Royal Canin, Eukanuba, James wellbeloved, Purina ProPlan, Arden grange.

I currently feed my dog (a cocker spaniel =]) on hill's scoence plan but i'm planning on changing to either a BARF or homecooked diet very soon. Hill's is very good, gives him a glossy coat, the ingredients are much better than most other foods and he enjoys it but I'd prefer to really know what's in his food, plus, I've heard that home cooked and BARF diets can change a dogs behaviour dramatically for the better. 

I buy the Hill's from Pet Supplies Store: Pet Planet, the UK's #1 Pet Store (an excellent place to stock up on all pet supplies, very cheap, free delivery on orders over £29.99) where you can get a 15kg bag for £38.99. sounds expensive but for 10kg dog it works out at just 38 pence a day (for 100 days). the better foods like Hill's, james wellbeloved etc seem expensive but when you follow the manufacturor's guidelines on how much to feed, you can work out that it is actually cheaper feeding these foods as you don't need to feed as much of it as the cheaper brands such as pedigree, bakers etc.

Hope all this helps =)


----------



## Ducky

the one thing that i mostly dont like about royal canin is the ridiculously high protein levels it contains!

i also dont buy into the whole breed specific thing either. the royal canin rep once told me why they do it. its because royal canin is from france and they generally dont have pet shops over there, you just go to the local garden centre and pick the dog food which has a picture of dog that looks most like yours on the packet! so even he was admitting that the breed specific thing was really a bit of a farce. 

why buy a 12kg bag of German Shep Ad food for £44 when u can buy the 15kg bag of maxi adult for the same price? if its food for larger breed dogs and is a good food it should have all the added things like glucosimine and chondrotin already in it.


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## Daddydog

jessejazza said:


> I could cook some rice and add 20% meat in the kitchen at a fraction of their cost.


How much will it cost you then to purchase and cook 6kg of chicken a month? Plus your time in cooking it too?


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## Guest

You shouldnt cook a dogs meat if your feeding our own diet at home... Most dogs too would be capable of eating the whole carcass - so depending on your budget you could get 6kg of whole chickens for around 1.99 a kg so £12 ish, up to £25 for a finest organic etc. The thing is that dog require all the offal bits too lol, and the neck, so in reality going to your butcher would be cheaper as you could buy the whole prepared chicken and the livers, heart, lungs, kidneys etc.


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## jessejazza

Lynsey191 said:


> I currently feed my dog (a cocker spaniel =]) on hill's scoence plan but i'm planning on changing to either a BARF or homecooked diet very soon. Hill's is very good, gives him a glossy coat, the ingredients are much better than most other foods and he enjoys it but I'd prefer to really know what's in his food, plus, I've heard that home cooked and BARF diets can change a dogs behaviour dramatically for the better.


Believe me you'll notice the difference in their behaviour and general vitality.


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## crazybones

Lynsey191 said:


> The best dry foods out there (in my opinion) are : Hill's Science Plan, Royal Canin, Eukanuba, James wellbeloved, Purina ProPlan, Arden grange.
> 
> I currently feed my dog (a cocker spaniel =]) on hill's scoence plan but i'm planning on changing to either a BARF or homecooked diet very soon. Hill's is very good, gives him a glossy coat, the ingredients are much better than most other foods and he enjoys it but I'd prefer to really know what's in his food, plus, I've heard that home cooked and BARF diets can change a dogs behaviour dramatically for the better.
> 
> I buy the Hill's from Pet Supplies Store: Pet Planet, the UK's #1 Pet Store (an excellent place to stock up on all pet supplies, very cheap, free delivery on orders over £29.99) where you can get a 15kg bag for £38.99. sounds expensive but for 10kg dog it works out at just 38 pence a day (for 100 days). the better foods like Hill's, james wellbeloved etc seem expensive but when you follow the manufacturor's guidelines on how much to feed, you can work out that it is actually cheaper feeding these foods as you don't need to feed as much of it as the cheaper brands such as pedigree, bakers etc.
> 
> Hope all this helps =)


I just thought i would add Nutro and Orijen to the list lol


----------



## rictic

Ducky said:


> the one thing that i mostly dont like about royal canin is the ridiculously high protein levels it contains!
> 
> i also dont buy into the whole breed specific thing either. the royal canin rep once told me why they do it. its because royal canin is from france and they generally dont have pet shops over there, you just go to the local garden centre and pick the dog food which has a picture of dog that looks most like yours on the packet! so even he was admitting that the breed specific thing was really a bit of a farce.
> 
> why buy a 12kg bag of German Shep Ad food for £44 when u can buy the 15kg bag of maxi adult for the same price? if its food for larger breed dogs and is a good food it should have all the added things like glucosimine and chondrotin already in it.


interesting, will have to check that out. might save some money.


----------



## tashi

Ducky said:


> the one thing that i mostly dont like about royal canin is the ridiculously high protein levels it contains!
> 
> i also dont buy into the whole breed specific thing either. the royal canin rep once told me why they do it. its because royal canin is from france and they generally dont have pet shops over there, you just go to the local garden centre and pick the dog food which has a picture of dog that looks most like yours on the packet! so even he was admitting that the breed specific thing was really a bit of a farce.
> 
> why buy a 12kg bag of German Shep Ad food for £44 when u can buy the 15kg bag of maxi adult for the same price? if its food for larger breed dogs and is a good food it should have all the added things like glucosimine and chondrotin already in it.


We feed the breed specific and it makes a huge difference


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## shazza1969

Must admit I went to crufts last week and the people on the Royal canin stand had not got a clue when I quizzed them about the contents and the high percentage of protein and why they do them for certain breeds of dogs and guess what they had not got a clue they could not answer any of my questions especially when i asked about the analysis does not adding up to 100%?? Buy British I say


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## shazza1969

Lynsey191 said:


> The best dry foods out there (in my opinion) are : Hill's Science Plan, Royal Canin, Eukanuba, James wellbeloved, Purina ProPlan, Arden grange.
> 
> I currently feed my dog (a cocker spaniel =]) on hill's scoence plan but i'm planning on changing to either a BARF or homecooked diet very soon. Hill's is very good, gives him a glossy coat, the ingredients are much better than most other foods and he enjoys it but I'd prefer to really know what's in his food, plus, I've heard that home cooked and BARF diets can change a dogs behaviour dramatically for the better.
> 
> I buy the Hill's from Pet Supplies Store: Pet Planet, the UK's #1 Pet Store (an excellent place to stock up on all pet supplies, very cheap, free delivery on orders over £29.99) where you can get a 15kg bag for £38.99. sounds expensive but for 10kg dog it works out at just 38 pence a day (for 100 days). the better foods like Hill's, james wellbeloved etc seem expensive but when you follow the manufacturor's guidelines on how much to feed, you can work out that it is actually cheaper feeding these foods as you don't need to feed as much of it as the cheaper brands such as pedigree, bakers etc.
> 
> Hope all this helps =)


Hills is expensive Royal Canin is made in France , Eukanuba are owned by P & G and test on Animals, Arden grange have increased their cereal contents in the past 12 -18 months.


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## tashi

shazza1969 said:


> Must admit I went to crufts last week and the people on the Royal canin stand had not got a clue when I quizzed them about the contents and the high percentage of protein and why they do them for certain breeds of dogs and guess what they had not got a clue they could not answer any of my questions especially when i asked about the analysis does not adding up to 100%?? Buy British I say


You should have asked for someone who understands the breakdown of the foods, due to the high volume of people attending Crufts some of those on the stand were actually the office girls, and not reps for the Company - the ones with the MOST know how on the foods were upstairs in the breeder lounge!!!

Sorry you did not get the answers you were looking for


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## Kiskasiberians

crazybones said:


> I just thought i would add Nutro and Orijen to the list lol


Nutro has been bought by Mars (who also own royal canin) so waht our for formula changes in the future to reduce cost.


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## Robbie

Kiskasiberians said:


> Nutro has been bought by Mars (who also own royal canin) so waht our for formula changes in the future to reduce cost.


The Adult lamb & rice has already changed

btw Mars also own James Wellbeloved as well as Nutro & Royal Canin


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## KAS

See thread GERMAN SHEPHERD - ALSATION DOGS on the NUTRITION AND HEALTH FORUM.

Lots of comments about food especially dried food.
Go to LAST poster (mine) where i give my conclusions.
YES, it`s JWB again. Have a read of all the posts.
KAS


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## Ducky

has anyone who feeds JWB been having any problems recently? i have had a few customers say their dogs have been being sick on it as of late. 

as far as i am aware there has been no recipe change but i havent really looked into it yet. 

it might just be coincidence.


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## rictic

i have been looking all over the net for the definitive best dried food.
not one place could me the results i wanted.

my breeder reccomends royal canin with a 80/20 mix of a low protein food to offset the high protein levels in the canin.

other dogs do well on jwb, pedigree etc.

it seems that you go with the one that works for your dog.

working dog mix/ allergy mix/ maintenance mix/ light mix ..........

geez the list goes on lol.

i'll use this big bag of canin and re evaluate then.


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## Suntree

I have brought new puppy home last week. 
Breeder gave me instructions what to feed the pup.

Morning:soaked weetabix,
Lunch: Rice pudding
Tea: Meat (pedigree) with biscuits
Night scrambled egg. 

First day puppy seemed to be all right and ate it all, however now he ignores any of these foods, except scrambled eggs. 
I am worried he will harm himself not eating, thus not developing. 
My boyfriend on other hand said puppy has to get used to dry food, for if I start feeding jelly meat he will refuse to switch to dry food later on. 
So I bought IAms dry food for little baby. Yet again first bowl went down all right, but now he completely ignores it. 

WHAT DO I DO?

I am frustrated!!!


----------



## jessejazza

When we walked guide dogs [11 over so many years] we used to give five meals a day - 3 milky types and two meat meals. Milky meals were a powder that was mixed in with milk. I'd try and stick with meat as it contains more protein for development that kibble. A natural diet won't fussy eating habits. Have you tried some fresh mince from the butcher - if you haven't got a reliable source i'd say pedigree tinned isn't a bad choice. I'm feeding my elderly greyhound on it as i can't get a reliable source of fresh meat. Other tinned meat i can't say i'm that impressed with.

Most kibble is 55-60% rice [or similar] and then a bit of meat (dried). I wouldn't feed that to a puppy. Later on if you want to feed dry complete that's your choice.

Do introduce the puppy to marrow bones as soon as possible [4 months] to keep teeth healthy. My lurcher wasn't given bones when younger and has teeth problems and dentals and extractions are very expensive.

Dogs won't refuse to change diet. They need to eat... thus when switching do so increasing amounts carefully over a week or so. I weaned my greyhound off dry complete over a couple of weeks, stools a bit soft a first and then later properly formed - but that is an older dog. My 4 yr lurcher can be switched immediately but he's younger.

Your boyfriend said 'has to get used to dry food'. Why? You choose to feed dry food! Dry complete is convenient and that is why most people choose to feed it.


----------



## shazza1969

Suntree said:


> I have brought new puppy home last week.
> Breeder gave me instructions what to feed the pup.
> 
> Morning:soaked weetabix,
> Lunch: Rice pudding
> Tea: Meat (pedigree) with biscuits
> Night scrambled egg.
> 
> First day puppy seemed to be all right and ate it all, however now he ignores any of these foods, except scrambled eggs.
> I am worried he will harm himself not eating, thus not developing.
> My boyfriend on other hand said puppy has to get used to dry food, for if I start feeding jelly meat he will refuse to switch to dry food later on.
> So I bought IAms dry food for little baby. Yet again first bowl went down all right, but now he completely ignores it.
> 
> WHAT DO I DO?
> 
> I am frustrated!!!


Iams are owned by Proctor and Gamble and test their products on animals see Uncaged Campaigns: Against animal testing and experiments Oscars do a grate puppy food I recently had a border collie puppy well 4 months ago now a junior and she was fine on this and so was the mother who was fed this before she gave birth see Oscar Pet Foods UK - Nutritious quality pet foods delivered to your door and its free delivery anywhere in the uk


----------



## shazza1969

tashi said:


> You should have asked for someone who understands the breakdown of the foods, due to the high volume of people attending Crufts some of those on the stand were actually the office girls, and not reps for the Company - the ones with the MOST know how on the foods were upstairs in the breeder lounge!!!
> 
> Sorry you did not get the answers you were looking for


was there any there??? they all seemed to be talking between themselves and not interested on talking to people on their stand


----------



## Suntree

jessejazza said:


> When we walked guide dogs [11 over so many years] we used to give five meals a day - 3 milky types and two meat meals. Milky meals were a powder that was mixed in with milk. I'd try and stick with meat as it contains more protein for development that kibble. A natural diet won't fussy eating habits. Have you tried some fresh mince from the butcher - if you haven't got a reliable source i'd say pedigree tinned isn't a bad choice. I'm feeding my elderly greyhound on it as i can't get a reliable source of fresh meat. Other tinned meat i can't say i'm that impressed with.
> 
> Most kibble is 55-60% rice [or similar] and then a bit of meat (dried). I wouldn't feed that to a puppy. Later on if you want to feed dry complete that's your choice.
> 
> Do introduce the puppy to marrow bones as soon as possible [4 months] to keep teeth healthy. My lurcher wasn't given bones when younger and has teeth problems and dentals and extractions are very expensive.
> 
> Dogs won't refuse to change diet. They need to eat... thus when switching do so increasing amounts carefully over a week or so. I weaned my greyhound off dry complete over a couple of weeks, stools a bit soft a first and then later properly formed - but that is an older dog. My 4 yr lurcher can be switched immediately but he's younger.
> 
> Your boyfriend said 'has to get used to dry food'. Why? You choose to feed dry food! Dry complete is convenient and that is why most people choose to feed it.


Thanks a lot, I guess this sort of opened my eyes. Same rules applies to babies: whether human or pets. They need to eat nutritious food and frequently. I will scrap my fear over the dries food, and stick with your advice. I have bought few books of course, but only one on pups behaviour has arrived. 
Please excuse my ignorance, but where can I get marrowbones? My puppy is miniature poodle and very delicate, I am concerned bones might be too big for him.


----------



## Suntree

shazza1969 said:


> Iams are owned by Proctor and Gamble and test their products on animals see Uncaged Campaigns: Against animal testing and experiments Oscars do a grate puppy food I recently had a border collie puppy well 4 months ago now a junior and she was fine on this and so was the mother who was fed this before she gave birth see Oscar Pet Foods UK - Nutritious quality pet foods delivered to your door and its free delivery anywhere in the uk


Thank you for the tip on Oscar food. 
I got IAMS influenced by TV adds of course. I am new in a field and when one doesn't know (have own opinion) one takes for granted what is suggested. Adds in this case are very powerful.


----------



## jessejazza

marrowbones?

shin or knuckle bone from the butcher. If you're a well known customer they'll give you them free... they only throw them out. Normally they have a day when carcasses are thrown out - our butcher's throw out on a Monday... that's the best time to visit.

But for a miniature poodle [our dogs have always been larger] - rib bones perhaps but cut off [with a hacksaw] the sharp fibrous end where the bone joins another. Giving regular bones throughout their life will keep their teeth in order and prevent expense dentals.

If they don't like bones [which is why you should introduce them while young - my two were re-homed] is brushing their teeth. I have to do it with my two and with limited success. Greyhounds and lurchers are known for poor teeth - maybe poodles are better. Dentals are expensive as it has to be done with sedation - bills like £400-500!

Bone gnawing is a must imho.

I should also mention. Don't let your poodle near a greyhound - a poodle closely resembles a rabbit in their eyes! A greyhound is a dear affectionate dog but a small dog getting close!


----------



## Suntree

jessejazza said:


> marrowbones?
> 
> shin or knuckle bone from the butcher. If you're a well known customer they'll give you them free... they only throw them out. Normally they have a day when carcasses are thrown out - our butcher's throw out on a Monday... that's the best time to visit.
> 
> But for a miniature poodle [our dogs have always been larger] - rib bones perhaps but cut off [with a hacksaw] the sharp fibrous end where the bone joins another. Giving regular bones throughout their life will keep their teeth in order and prevent expense dentals.
> 
> If they don't like bones [which is why you should introduce them while young - my two were re-homed] is brushing their teeth. I have to do it with my two and with limited success. Greyhounds and lurchers are known for poor teeth - maybe poodles are better. Dentals are expensive as it has to be done with sedation - bills like £400-500!
> 
> Bone gnawing is a must imho.
> 
> I should also mention. Don't let your poodle near a greyhound - a poodle closely resembles a rabbit in their eyes! A greyhound is a dear affectionate dog but a small dog getting close!




Thank you for advices. 
I will definitely pay a visit to butcher and ask about marrow bones. Toffee got very excited with a tree branch blown into our garden. This tells me he will enjoy bone a lot!!! 
In fact I will pass this advice to my boyfriend as well. He is an owner of black lab and golden retriever. They are still 'teenagers' so nothing is lost yet for them.

Thanks again.


----------



## Debi

my 2 labs are now having Oscars and even though one is 10 months and the other is 4 years they can both have the same type. Our eldest, Millie, has always been fussy and often wouldn't eat but she now wolfs down all her tea (its half and half at the moment) and it is just under £35 for 15 kilo and you don't need to feed them as much as other dry foods. each dog is individually assessed by the rep so he can easily be told of any changes.


----------



## tashi

shazza1969 said:


> was there any there??? they all seemed to be talking between themselves and not interested on talking to people on their stand


Yes but they were all in the breeder lounge upstairs as I have said  and I know they were there and if you were not happy with the information given then you could ask to speak to someone who does understood the food and the differences in it, I know there were knowledgeable people on the ground floor as well as the vet reps were down there


----------



## crawfom

tashi said:


> You should have asked for someone who understands the breakdown of the foods, due to the high volume of people attending Crufts some of those on the stand were actually the office girls, and not reps for the Company - the ones with the MOST know how on the foods were upstairs in the breeder lounge!!!
> 
> Sorry you did not get the answers you were looking for


Tashi - Are you employed by Royal Canin, as this seems a very 'corporate' answer.
I sometimes feel this thread is an advert for companies (such as Royal canin and Oscars).
I want 'real' pet owners opinions and think food company people should own up when commenting


----------



## doggiesgalore

Debi said:


> my 2 labs are now having Oscars and even though one is 10 months and the other is 4 years they can both have the same type. Our eldest, Millie, has always been fussy and often wouldn't eat but she now wolfs down all her tea (its half and half at the moment) and it is just under £35 for 15 kilo and you don't need to feed them as much as other dry foods. each dog is individually assessed by the rep so he can easily be told of any changes.


I've tried endless different foods over the years. Even Royal Canine. But I found this not too be the best for them as two developed skin and digestive problems whilst on it. About a year ago I found Oscars and, after going through all the ingredients etc with my vet - who thought it was good was pleased to recommend to me and others, I started using the Super Premium (now ultracare) Lamb & Rice and have been using it ever since with brilliant results; and all the skin and digestive problems have now completely disappeared. My gang are a lot happier on it too. The puppy one is bril too. So I truely believe its a good food.


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## doggiesgalore

LisaMc said:


> Hi All
> I'm new to the site and have found it very informative
> I wondedered if you could advise me also on dry food, we have a staffie cross (with a english bull terrier we think ) around 10 months when we picked him up fromthe RSPCA they had been feeding him James wellbeloved so we did the same however he had the runs and it was very bad so we took him to the vets twice and none of the meds worked, we then put him on natures diet and he has "firmed up," So now we don't know if to keep him on this or try with another dry food that isn't so rich, also I'm unsure as to what to look for on ingrediants that isn't rich,
> I would be gratefull for any advise
> 
> Regards
> Lisa


Hi Lisa, If you intend to keep your boy on dry food, with all the problems I have had with two of my gang I would def recommend Oscars Ultracare. All 7 of mine are thriving on this food. After reading the ingredients, even my vets now recommend it! You cannot buy it in the shops, only direct from Oscars straight to your doorstep. In some areas they have reps. I have a fab rep named Martin who delivers direct to me - lovely friendly fellah he is too.
Alternatively, though not a dried food - the Barfs sounds good to me too.


----------



## rattiemum86

I give both my adult dogs Purina. They love it and have had no issues with it. It £25 for a big 15kg sack.


----------



## tashi

crawfom said:


> Tashi - Are you employed by Royal Canin, as this seems a very 'corporate' answer.
> I sometimes feel this thread is an advert for companies (such as Royal canin and Oscars).
> I want 'real' pet owners opinions and think food company people should own up when commenting


No I am not employed by Royal Canin and you will see that I have not commented on the food that they produce just that there were knowledgeable people available on the stand - it is a food that I feed my dogs along with Purina and some James Wellbeloved !!!!


----------



## shazza1969

and I'm certainly not employed by Oscars its just a food I found for my dogs which both I and the dogs love so are you going to accuse all those other people who mention a brand like JWB or Purina??


----------



## tashi

shazza1969 said:


> and I'm certainly not employed by Oscars its just a food I found for my dogs which both I and the dogs love so are you going to accuse all those other people who mention a brand like JWB or Purina??


Thanks for the back up Shazza I just find it sad that you didnt find anyone who could talk to you about the food, I know at Crufts they do take a lot of the Office staff but they should be able to point you in the direction of someone who does know :thumbup:


----------



## dexter

my roughs wouldn't touch Oscars in any shape or form. I use a middle of the road dry food Davies and the pups have supadog again a resonably priced feed. IMO you feed whats suits the dog and your pocket.


----------



## tashi

dexter said:


> my roughs wouldn't touch Oscars in any shape or form. I use a middle of the road dry food Davies and the pups have supadog again a resonably priced feed. IMO you feed whats suits the dog and your pocket.


How right you are Dexter hence why mine are on different foods, bit of a pain really as we have 6 different foods here to feed but it is what suits the dogs best that gets fed, in our bins we have Royal Canin, Purina, Beta, Bozita, James Well Beloved and a big chalk board with who gets fed what, how much and how many times a day


----------



## AndyAttwood

Hi,

I've posted elsewhere, but I use Fish4Dogs food.

My goldie loves this stuff - worth a try. Loads of health benefits to feeding fish as well, and best of all, 100% natural.

Arnie's coat, skin, mobility and breath have all improved unbelievably since we switched over to Fish4Dogs.

You can try it at www.fish4dogs.com

Hope that helps,

Andy.


----------



## PawsPup

tashi said:


> How right you are Dexter hence why mine are on different foods, bit of a pain really as we have 6 different foods here to feed but it is what suits the dogs best that gets fed, in our bins we have Royal Canin, Purina, Beta, Bozita, James Well Beloved and a big chalk board with who gets fed what, how much and how many times a day


Whoa that's alot of feed lol. Your dogs must keep you busy


----------



## Indie

The big dogs are fed on Wagg Worker and the pups are on Beta puppy. The 3 pups wouldn't touch dry food only tinned and i hate the smell of tinned so Beta was the last resort and they lurve it.


----------



## caroleduffin

Hi. When I collected my Shih Zhu puppy from the breeder the feeding advice she gave me was rubbish. Told me to give her Weetabix and milk, pasta, cheap adult dog food - all sorts of rubbish. I was very worried as she was only 7 weeks old.

I asked advice from the vet and they told me to change her over as quickly as I could to a reputable dry puppy food. I chose Pedigree Complete Dry Puppy Food. She is absolutely thriving on it. Growing well. Lots of energy (!!!). Imnportantly she loves it and empties the bowl at every feedtime.


The advice from Pedigree about rearing a puppy, and the amounts to give etc is excellent. I would heartily recommend Pedigree. 

Jasmine's mum.


----------



## Chesben

Carolduffin thats great she is doing well on it but personally I don't like it as it is full of a lot of preservatives etc. Can I ask a question - does she have a lot of gas? I ask this as many years ago when we had our first dog we had her on Pedigree believing it to be a good food - lots of marketing and you get sucked in. We were at training and the trainer asked if anyone had gas problems with our dogs we said yes and the next question was do you feed pedigree? Everyone who answered yes fed pedigree. we changed it straight away and I would never feed it now along with bakers.

If your puppy is doing well on it then the best of luck with it - every dog is different and no food suits all dogs


----------



## tashi

PawsPup said:


> Whoa that's alot of feed lol. Your dogs must keep you busy


hmmm There are 12 of them lol


----------



## candykisses18

i used to feed mine the butchers but it gave them an upset stomach so we switched to chappy which is relativley cheap but is apparently full of the right nutrients but i may be wrong.


----------



## nellie_dean

I think Chappy could be rightly described as 'cheap and cheerful' and is often used by vets as a bland diet when dogs have digestive probs, although I would have thought home cooked chicken & rice would have been a better choice.
I wouldn't like to comment on whether you could call it a good food though.


----------



## jessejazza

candykisses18 said:


> i used to feed mine the butchers but it gave them an upset stomach so we switched to chappy which is relativley cheap but is apparently full of the right nutrients but i may be wrong.


Are you referring to the wet food or dry complete? I didn't think butchers did a dry complete. Chappie wet food is one of the oldest tinned foods available. It used to be good for sensitive stomachs as it is based on fish. I did try it for a while but my two turned against it after tasting plain raw meat. I found pedigree loaf a better bet when i couldn't get raw meat.


----------



## caroleduffin

Hi. Thanks for your reply. No we have no gas problems! Her motions are very firm ,and they do not smell!

She really is doing well on the puppy food. Perhaps she may have digestive problems when we move onto the adult Pedigree food, but I'll deal with that if necessary.

As the olde saying goes "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

Thanks Jasmine's mum


----------



## Suntree

caroleduffin said:


> Hi. Thanks for your reply. No we have no gas problems! Her motions are very firm ,and they do not smell!
> 
> She really is doing well on the puppy food. Perhaps she may have digestive problems when we move onto the adult Pedigree food, but I'll deal with that if necessary.
> 
> As the olde saying goes "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"
> 
> Thanks Jasmine's mum


Wish I could be as lucky to say so. My puppy has veeeery sophisticated taste. I do not even know whether sophisticated is right word to describe it. I never thought I would be jumping through such loops to feed him. 
He refuses, absolutely refuses to eat dry food, which is complete nutrition; does not eat canned food either. I followed advice getting him mince and cooking myself. Sometime it works sometime does not. If he was an adult dog, I would leave to 'will eat when hungry', but he is a puppy and need nutrients to develop. 
I have bought, have cooked, have thrown away so much food already. It is frustrating. 
The only thing he would always eat is scrambled egg. Today he turned his nose away form meat!!!! 
Can anybody advice????
Tried Oscars, that was the last resort. Does not work either.

Frusty Toffees Mum

PS with home cooking, I have read he needs additional vitamins and minerals. Has anybody got an advice on this topic?


----------



## jessejazza

My parents had a pup that turned out to have allergies. They fed him on mince and rice supplemented with vitamins [PET TABS is a common all vitamin tablets sold by vets as opposed to some which are just for coat conditioning]. It could well just be a puppy allergy that it'll grow out of.

I wouldn't consider a dry complete until you have found out what the cause could be. If you do consider the ones that sell small packs of 2.5/3.0 kg until you find out if liked. Otherwise a 15 kg sack each time could be very expensive and wasteful.

I'd recommend staying with natural food until you've found a solution. Try different meats from the butchers, AMP [anglian meat products] 1 lb packs of frozen meat for dogs which most pet shops sell. Fish is easy to digest, either AMP tripe or supermarket whitefish packs. Keep on several small meals a day for a while.


----------



## nellie_dean

Re home cooking there's some good advice on Pet Food Choice - Home Cooking for your cat and dog with potential problems highlighted toward the bottom of the page - there's also some suggested proportions for recipes


----------



## Nick Jones

Disappointing that Burns are introducing Maize to the ingredients list. Done for cost reasons I'm sure.

Pedigree's Better by Nature is a con as has been pointed out.

J.W. is good. Nutro seems a good balance between ingredients and cost too.

Cheers.

Nick


----------



## Kiskasiberians

Nick Jones said:


> Disappointing that Burns are introducing Maize to the ingredients list. Done for cost reasons I'm sure.
> 
> Pedigree's Better by Nature is a con as has been pointed out.
> 
> J.W. is good. Nutro seems a good balance between ingredients and cost too.


Ah bit Nutro was recently bought by Mars petcare, who will start to tinker with the formula as they have done with Royal Canin.


----------



## Kinski

Not read the whole thread but I feed my two ( shelties ) on Orijen, it costs me about £2.50 a week to feed them, the only treats they get are from fish4dogs and home made liver cake, or whatever my oh thinks he can give them when I'm not looking .
Orijen is very high in protein but it doesn't make my pair hyper unlike some of the foods with loads of carbs do.

Terri


----------



## crazybones

Kinski said:


> Not read the whole thread but I feed my two ( shelties ) on Orijen, it costs me about £2.50 a week to feed them, the only treats they get are from fish4dogs and home made liver cake, or whatever my oh thinks he can give them when I'm not looking .
> Orijen is very high in protein but it doesn't make my pair hyper unlike some of the foods with loads of carbs do.
> 
> Terri


orijen is what i am going to move Kya on to once she is moving on to adult food.....


----------



## jasps

I feed my Sheltie on Orijen too. He loves it. Took a while to work out the correct amount to give him (a lot less than it states on the bag). I have read a number of threads that say it makes the dog hyper but I have never experienced this. He has loads of energy and an absolutely amazing coat, still has his puppy coat as he is only 5 months.

My last two Shelties both had sensitive stomachs so I did a lot of research this time around. Shelties and sensitive stomachs are not a good combination. 

I am very happy with Orijen, won't look at anything else at the moment. Wish it didn't have to be imported from Canada but I couldn't find anything with a similar ingredient list made here in the UK.

Adam


----------



## crazybones

jasps said:


> I feed my Sheltie on Orijen too. He loves it. Took a while to work out the correct amount to give him (a lot less than it states on the bag). I have read a number of threads that say it makes the dog hyper but I have never experienced this. He has loads of energy and an absolutely amazing coat, still has his puppy coat as he is only 5 months.
> 
> My last two Shelties both had sensitive stomachs so I did a lot of research this time around. Shelties and sensitive stomachs are not a good combination.
> 
> I am very happy with Orijen, won't look at anything else at the moment. Wish it didn't have to be imported from Canada but I couldn't find anything with a similar ingredient list made here in the UK.
> 
> Adam


i wanna put her on the is it five or 6 fish adult food????


----------



## MarKalAm

000000000000000000000


----------



## Kinski

My last sheltie had colitis and Burns or Robbies were the only foods she could eat, I never knew about Orijen then or she would have been on that.
I chicken out ( pardon the pun ) when it comes to barf, it takes me all the time to touch the liver for their cake.

Terri


----------



## nellie_dean

You don't have to buy food made overseas to get a good natural food - Pets at Home do their own which is good, and there's firms like Whites Premium selling excellent food at way below the price of Burns and JW.


----------



## jasps

nellie_dean said:


> You don't have to buy food made overseas to get a good natural food - Pets at Home do their own which is good, and there's firms like Whites Premium selling excellent food at way below the price of Burns and JW.


They are not in the same league as Orijen. For example, the first ingredient in 
Whites Premium Chicken & Rice recipe is 26% chicken. Since 65-70% of chicken is water, once you take out the water, as would happen in the production of the kibble, the chicken would be much further down the list of ingredients. If it had chicken meal as it's first ingredient then that would be a slightly different matter as roughly only 10% of chicken meal is water.

Adam


----------



## Kinski

nellie_dean said:


> You don't have to buy food made overseas to get a good natural food - Pets at Home do their own which is good, and there's firms like Whites Premium selling excellent food at way below the price of Burns and JW.


Orijen has no grains in it at all unlike the White's premium which has 26% rice in their food,I really don't want to fill my dogs with rice or any type of grain/cereal. I can't comment on the Pets at Home stuff as I don't know the ingredients.

Terri


----------



## crazybones

im glad you two stick up for orijen as i was thinking this as orijen is in its own league basically. thats what i have found.


----------



## Debi

i have been feeding mine Oscars for a month now. the pup is looking great, and our fussy older dog is eating every meal now. Their weight has stayed pretty steady (was worried the pup would pile on the pounds). our rep Brian rang last week to see how they were getting on and brought a new bag of food round. hubby had gone out with the dogs so he left the bag of food by the car and left without being paid!!!! our vets has the rep come in and the vet nurses all feed their dogs Oscars too.


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## nellie_dean

With an analysis of Protein 42.0%, and Fat 16.0% I would be wary of feeding Orijen to anything other than a hard working breed. I know many years experience of Burns Pet Nutrition has shown that low protein /moderate fat diets are healthier, and indeed Purina (I think) did long term trials not so long ago and proved scientifically that dogs live longer on such a diet. In fact they changed their own formulations based upon that research.


----------



## jasps

crazybones said:


> im glad you two stick up for orijen as i was thinking this as orijen is in its own league basically. thats what i have found.


I stick up for it because I do believe it is the best food I have used so far, wet or dry, and I have tried a lot. You would only have to see my dog as evidence of this, not saying it is for every dog because I don't know if it is, just know it is working for us.

Nellie_Dean, I wouldn't believe any research done by any pet food manufacturer. There are a few independent research articles on the web which I would trust more. Purina are not going to compare another product, say Orijen for arguements sake, and one of their products and then say 'You know what, Orijen is better for your dog' are they?

Adam


----------



## Fremlin

EllenJay said:


> I have got our dog on Orijen Senior (from Zooplus) and she seems to really enjoy it.


Excellent choice, I have changed both our dogs over to Orijen. They love it so much and although it's expensive you don't need to feed them anywhere near what we did previously. It also has no grain in it, which is a big plus.


----------



## Sarahnya

I think Orijen is great too, I noticed my older Chihuahua got a sparkle back in her eyes and seems to have more energy now plus her coat is softer.

Interestingly Acana has now been released in the UK too so we now have a couple of Super Prem foods to choose from 

Acana Dry Dog Food: Great Selection at zooplus!

Could be useful for dogs who don't get on with Orijen. :thumbup:


----------



## MandyandAngel

Were do i start. We throught we were giving our baby girl the best by giving her Bakers, which she is still on, and we can just about afford this because hubby retired and i'm at college. We now know this is not the case and we are interested about giving her the BARF diet but we are not sure.

We are not sure because she is a funny eater. She doesn't eat all her food in one go, but in little bits. She takes a mouth full, brings it into living-room, eats it, and then goes and get more. She does this about four times and thats it. She does this about every 4 hours, and she has done this ever since we got her. She was 7 months when we got her from a breeder.

We are wondering if we change her diet to BARF would it be okay with her eating habit or not. Any advice would be helpful because we want to give her the best but don't know what to do because of her funny habit.


----------



## Fremlin

Our spaniel Fern used to be a wee bit fussy like that. She would take hours to eat a bowl of food. Since changing her to Orijen she now wolfs it down and you can genuinely see she gets excited about meal times.


----------



## Elspeth

brianbvs said:


> Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble
> Dog Food Review - Dog Food Comparison
> ... you might want to check these pages about dog food...


It was because of this site (linked to from another forum) that we decided to change to Orijen. It's really informative, just be wary some things vary from UK to USA, so contents and nutritional values might be a little bit different.



Sarahnya said:


> I think Orijen is great too, I noticed my older Chihuahua got a sparkle back in her eyes and seems to have more energy now plus her coat is softer.
> 
> Interestingly Acana has now been released in the UK too so we now have a couple of Super Prem foods to choose from
> 
> Acana Dry Dog Food: Great Selection at zooplus!
> 
> Could be useful for dogs who don't get on with Orijen. :thumbup:


Acana is another really highly thought of food on the review site linked above.



Fremlin said:


> Our spaniel Fern used to be a wee bit fussy like that. She would take hours to eat a bowl of food. Since changing her to Orijen she now wolfs it down and you can genuinely see she gets excited about meal times.


Wee Fern is a bit of a pie now! Eats her meals in seconds. It's the first time in all the time I've had her (from 8 weeks and a day old ) that she's enjoyed her food.


----------



## Suntree

MandyandAngel said:


> Were do i start. We throught we were giving our baby girl the best by giving her Bakers, which she is still on, and we can just about afford this because hubby retired and i'm at college. We now know this is not the case and we are interested about giving her the BARF diet but we are not sure.
> 
> We are not sure because she is a funny eater. She doesn't eat all her food in one go, but in little bits. She takes a mouth full, brings it into living-room, eats it, and then goes and get more. She does this about four times and thats it. She does this about every 4 hours, and she has done this ever since we got her. She was 7 months when we got her from a breeder.
> 
> We are wondering if we change her diet to BARF would it be okay with her eating habit or not. Any advice would be helpful because we want to give her the best but don't know what to do because of her funny habit.


I got a problem like that with my pup. Ever since I got him from breeder, he has been fussy about food. I have tried numerous brands, dry and wet, you name it. 
If he was an adult dog, I would probably say, will eat when hungry, but pup needs to develop and grow, and for that needs nutrients, therefore I am jumping over loops and trying to come up with 'perfect formula'.
Faced with this problem, I have done loads of reading, am very grateful to participants of this thread, for got more than few good advices. 
Since nether of diets on its own worked for my pup, I am doing a mix of few.
I do offer him dry food at beginning of every meal, and sometimes (rate ~one out of 8) he would have a full meal of it. 
The other 'food' I give him is yoghurt with cottage cheese. They both are rich in protein and calcium thus providing proper nutrition, and sometimes he likes it. However, I never load his bowl with full portion. Add a teaspoon (he is a little breed pup) at a time. Once he is done with it, I ad another. Following this method he always has a good meal out of it, while if bowl was loaded he would just sniff couple of times and leave. No clue why. 
For meat, I make him liver meals with carrots, and meatballs (adding some rice and carrots-peas mush into it). 
Once in a blue I would offer him raw beef mince.
Combining all these tricks together, I am managing to get him growing quite well. 
I did not expect to have so much fuss about dogs food, but I have to do whats best for the pup.

To break a habit going into his beloved spots to eat, and stay by his bowl, I close pen (he loves to eat there) and doors to other rooms, leaving kitchen door open, not to make him feel claustrophobic. Seems to be working all right. He makes few attempts to go to his pen or my office, but then comes back and eats meal at the bowl

PS. Inspired by this thread. 
I got Orijen (arrived today). Was dismissed by my pup, but tomorrow he might change his opinion.


----------



## Sarahnya

I've been looking at Acana, it is lower in calorie than Orijen probably due to it having more plant material in (I think it's about 10% less meat). 

I'm going to order the lamb one for Shiro as he puts on weight really easy, I think it may be because he is fixed whereas Chichi and Millie aren't. They both seem to be able to scoff whatever they want and always be a perfect weight (I wish I could the say the same about me).


----------



## nellie_dean

jasps said:


> Nellie_Dean, I wouldn't believe any research done by any pet food manufacturer. There are a few independent research articles on the web which I would trust more. Purina are not going to compare another product, say Orijen for arguements sake, and one of their products and then say 'You know what, Orijen is better for your dog' are they?
> 
> Adam


Re comments above, I'm not gullible enough to accept everything that a pet company tells me, but that extends to all pet food companies 001_unsure because at the end of the day they are going to promote their food at the expense of someone elses - that's as true of Orijen as it it about Iams or the big boys.
However, and it's a big 'However' I did look at the research some time ago, and it's pretty conclusive, that dogs are healthier and live longer when fed a lower protein/fat diet and kept lean. The fact that Purina altered their own recipes as a result of this research says a lot.
It also validates what John Burns of Burns Pet Nutrition has been saying for around 20 years, that in his experience, and that's based on the use of his food over that period by thousands of dog owners - that a lean dog is a healthy dog, and if you feed a food that is high in protein/fat then it is far easier to overfeed, which leads to health problems in the longer term.
But at the end of the day, one food suits one dog and another suits another


----------



## normy

When we adopted our Lab from Blue Cross she was ten months old, on Science Plan, but had very loose stools. Other makes were gradually tried, but still loose poos. Our vet recommended James Wellbeloved Lamb and Rice, and fortunately it has worked really well with the dog passing two well-formed stools nearly every day since. (A year.) 
Having read all this thread, I have learned a lot, reactions of the dogs seem to be different, but I am reluctant to change to cheaper food except for good reason. The only down side has been, she has tired of it a bit, and to encourage her we have added a little bit of cooked meat to the middle of the bowl, which she eats first with some of the meal, and the remnants we stuff in a Kong with a dash of peanut butter which she loves and finishes. Someone might tell me this is not recommended, but it seems to work! :drool:


----------



## Chesben

I too wanted to try orijen as there was so many good reviews about it and I do like it having no grain - my dog however would not touch it all all - if he took a bit while eating his other food he would spit it out again and if he had crunched it would spit all the little pieces out!


----------



## Mortlach

MandyandAngel said:


> Were do i start. We throught we were giving our baby girl the best by giving her Bakers, which she is still on, and we can just about afford this because hubby retired and i'm at college. We now know this is not the case and we are interested about giving her the BARF diet but we are not sure.
> 
> We are not sure because she is a funny eater. She doesn't eat all her food in one go, but in little bits. She takes a mouth full, brings it into living-room, eats it, and then goes and get more. She does this about four times and thats it. She does this about every 4 hours, and she has done this ever since we got her. She was 7 months when we got her from a breeder.
> 
> We are wondering if we change her diet to BARF would it be okay with her eating habit or not. Any advice would be helpful because we want to give her the best but don't know what to do because of her funny habit.


Hi,

Tey this website. Dog Food for gundogs, sheepdogs, agility dogs, and show dogs. 
Really good food at very good prices. Do a huge range of protein levels etc. Made with the dogs in mind. Have been using it for a while now and saw such a big diffence in myy 2 collies. Both used to have to eat diffent food due to being fussy. They are really approachable if you give them a call or email they will help you through with the choices and reccommend one.

Prices range from under £10 for 15kg upwards!!! A bargain in anyones eyes surely.

Martin


----------



## Mortlach

normy said:


> When we adopted our Lab from Blue Cross she was ten months old, on Science Plan, but had very loose stools. Other makes were gradually tried, but still loose poos. Our vet recommended James Wellbeloved Lamb and Rice, and fortunately it has worked really well with the dog passing two well-formed stools nearly every day since. (A year.)
> Having read all this thread, I have learned a lot, reactions of the dogs seem to be different, but I am reluctant to change to cheaper food except for good reason. The only down side has been, she has tired of it a bit, and to encourage her we have added a little bit of cooked meat to the middle of the bowl, which she eats first with some of the meal, and the remnants we stuff in a Kong with a dash of peanut butter which she loves and finishes. Someone might tell me this is not recommended, but it seems to work! :drool:


My young Collie was on the same please try CSj dog food. Cheap and better. Made originally for gumdogs and working dohs but now have a range.

Oh and I don't work for them. JUst wish I knew of them earlier.


----------



## waggytailsstore

We weened our springers over to adult burns, find it suits their digestion a lot more, less mess, don't need to give them too much which is good as Molly always tries to eat Fudges dinner!


----------



## Chubby (Patterdale)

My puppy is very fussy, i am trying him on hills natures best right now. Can anyone tell me if this is any good?.


----------



## Deb

am changing my 5mth old collie from Science plan to james wellbeloved. She seems to be tiring of the SP and has loads of stools each day. Also it is pretty expensive. Hope the JW will keep her (and my purse!!) happy.


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## Guest

hi i have just changed mine from natures diet to arden grange premium


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## IndiePup

Hi, I have two border collies and a border collie/jack russell cross.

One of the collies and the cross were fed Hill's Science Plan for ages and then we moved them to Purina Beta after trying a few other things. Bakers Choice and Pedigree both had 'interesting' results and I wouldn't go there again.

The youngest collie was fed Eukanuba puppy as soon as he got off mum's milk and tehn onto Beta for him too.

After speaking to our new neighbour (we've just moved) we've tried them on Chudley's. The crazy thing is that they all prefer it and are in even better condition, even though it's very significantly cheaper (about £12/15kilos). The male adult border collie gets about 230g twice a day, he's around 20 kilos. The food is a mix of kibbles and muesli-type stuff. http://www.chudleys.com/products/dog/working-dog/original/

Having tried the expensive stuff, yes it works, but it seems that something else about a third-quarter the price is just as good... It's sold as a food for working dogs, and round here we have to go to a little shop a few villages away to get it, big pet shops seem not to want to stock this range...

Possibly a bonus or possibly coincidence; but Merlin the big lad is a Blue Merle and has always had problems with some of his pads - some of them are pink, and playing on hard surfaces too hard has always been a reliable way of giving him a bloody foot. This has cleared up since going onto the Chudley's original. I'd recommend anyone with Collies to give it a go... 

Edit: should make it clear that i haven't been trying to make his paws bleed, we've just never had a gravel drive before...


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## jessejazza

IndiePup said:


> Having tried the expensive stuff, yes it works, but it seems that something else about a third-quarter the price is just as good... It's sold as a food for working dogs, and round here we have to go to a little shop a few villages away to get it, big pet shops seem not to want to stock this range...


With dog food the 'you get what you pay for' is not so applicable. Due to the competition i think a lot depends on whether the manufacturer has their own processing equipment. Arden Grange and Burns i think use a firm for manufacture and so costs are much higher. Pet shops stock what'll bring in the better profit. Also the range is so vast they can't stock all. Of the kibble food i like the muesli mix and dogs do seem to love it.

But then again if something like Burns is 55% rice... i don't see that it is better than me cooking rice on the stove and adding meat and vitamins.


----------



## Guest

MarKalAm said:


> As with all comercial foods, dry is not good for dogs, actually its the worse type. You'd think wet food is, but no, its still bad, but not as bad.
> A natural raw diet is the only way to guarentee a healthy, fit and happy dog. And it's not as expensive.


I have two of my dogs on a raw diet and I couldn't be happier with how they are thriving on it.

However I get quite annoyed by comments like the above - that feeding raw is the ONLY way to have a healthy happy dog. What a load of bullocks! My dogs ate super premium dried food for years and they did well on it, just not as well as they now do on a raw diet.

Not every dog can eat a raw diet. I have an elderly dog here who I did change over to BARF but she has a lot of allergies and can't stomach red meat and a variety of other raw foods. She did worse on a raw diet than she did on dried food. So I feed her a combination of raw chicken and Artemis dried food and she is now back to being a healthy happy dog, as her allergies are being managed.

There are also a variety of medical conditions that create intolerance to raw foods, while I always recommend a raw diet, it is not suitable to every dog.

Sometimes I think raw feeders are doing themselves a disservice by being so gung ho about their diet, I LOVE feeding raw but there are many dogs out there who thrive on good quality dried food too.

Now to the thread at hand - we can't get Orijen in my country as it was pulled from the shelves due to the irridation issue, so I feed Artemis to one of my dogs which I am very happy with. I recommend Eagle Pack Holistic too.


----------



## Guest

smeagle said:


> I have two of my dogs on a raw diet and I couldn't be happier with how they are thriving on it.
> 
> However I get quite annoyed by comments like the above - that feeding raw is the ONLY way to have a healthy happy dog. What a load of bullocks! My dogs ate super premium dried food for years and they did well on it, just not as well as they now do on a raw diet.
> 
> Not every dog can eat a raw diet. I have an elderly dog here who I did change over to BARF but she has a lot of allergies and can't stomach red meat and a variety of other raw foods. She did worse on a raw diet than she did on dried food. So I feed her a combination of raw chicken and Artemis dried food and she is now back to being a healthy happy dog, as her allergies are being managed.
> 
> There are also a variety of medical conditions that create intolerance to raw foods, while I always recommend a raw diet, it is not suitable to every dog.
> 
> Sometimes I think raw feeders are doing themselves a disservice by being so gung ho about their diet, I LOVE feeding raw but there are many dogs out there who thrive on good quality dried food too.
> 
> Now to the thread at hand - we can't get Orijen in my country as it was pulled from the shelves due to the irridation issue, so I feed Artemis to one of my dogs which I am very happy with. I recommend Eagle Pack Holistic too.


Actually I agree with you 

A raw diet to most dogs is the best, but that doesnt mean its a one size fits all diet. Not every dog can tolerate a raw diet, not every owner is able to provide a raw diet. My pup is now on a combination of raw meaty bones n chicken wings along with naturediet. I moved from totally raw (with burns biccys which he detested) to ND for convenience. I go away with family alot, and it takes alot more forethought and planning to take a raw diet with me. It also means when i go on holiday and he goes off to visit family I know they will be confident in feeding him.

Another point I made in a different thread was....

We all moan and complain about the cheaper off the shelf supermarket dog foods. But they are still amongst the most popular in the country, there must be hundreds of dogs living happily on this diet out there, we just dont get to see them on here. Ok their diet might not be the best quality and full of additives, but it is obviously working for these pets and their owners.


----------



## Guest

billyboysmammy said:


> Actually I agree with you
> 
> A raw diet to most dogs is the best, but that doesnt mean its a one size fits all diet. Not every dog can tolerate a raw diet, not every owner is able to provide a raw diet. My pup is now on a combination of raw meaty bones n chicken wings along with naturediet. I moved from totally raw (with burns biccys which he detested) to ND for convenience. I go away with family alot, and it takes alot more forethought and planning to take a raw diet with me. It also means when i go on holiday and he goes off to visit family I know they will be confident in feeding him.
> 
> Another point I made in a different thread was....
> 
> We all moan and complain about the cheaper off the shelf supermarket dog foods. But they are still amongst the most popular in the country, there must be hundreds of dogs living happily on this diet out there, we just dont get to see them on here. Ok their diet might not be the best quality and full of additives, but it is obviously working for these pets and their owners.


And it does not (IMO) do pro-raw feeders any favours by trying to guilt people into feeding 'their' way (i.e. raw is the only way for your dog to be happy and healthy).

I definitely agree with your last point, although there are a lot of health problems that are caused by poor nutrition. Grains are one of the main (if not the number one) food allergies in dogs. Many dogs survive on dodgy food but they aren't necessarily doing well or thriving as they would on a better quality diet.

And cost is definitely no indicator, as any raw feeder will tell you, it can be quite an economical diet to feed. There are so-called premium foods out there that I would never feed (Science Diet and Eukanuba are two that immediately spring to mind) and they can be quite expensive.


----------



## Kinski

IndiePup said:


> After speaking to our new neighbour (we've just moved) we've tried them on Chudley's.


I've looked all over the Chudleys site but I can't find a list of the ingredients, could you please have a look and let us know what's in the food.
Thanks very much Terri


----------



## Sarahnya

I've ordered some Acana so i'll see how I get on with however I was wondering what the difference between normal dog food and the senior one is.

I'm hoping the senior is simply lower fat/less calories as Shiro really does gain weight easy, if it's the case that it's lower fat I might try out a bag or Orijen senior.


----------



## germanshepherds

I give my pup weebox puppy you can get it in asda.


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## germanshepherds

I give my adult dogs wagg working dog dry food.


----------



## jessejazza

smeagle said:


> I have two of my dogs on a raw diet and I couldn't be happier with how they are thriving on it.
> 
> However I get quite annoyed by comments like the above - that feeding raw is the ONLY way to have a healthy happy dog. What a load of bullocks! My dogs ate super premium dried food for years and they did well on it, just not as well as they now do on a raw diet.
> 
> Not every dog can eat a raw diet. I have an elderly dog here who I did change over to BARF but she has a lot of allergies and can't stomach red meat and a variety of other raw foods. She did worse on a raw diet than she did on dried food. So I feed her a combination of raw chicken and Artemis dried food and she is now back to being a healthy happy dog, as her allergies are being managed.
> 
> There are also a variety of medical conditions that create intolerance to raw foods, while I always recommend a raw diet, it is not suitable to every dog.
> 
> Sometimes I think raw feeders are doing themselves a disservice by being so gung ho about their diet, I LOVE feeding raw but there are many dogs out there who thrive on good quality dried food too.
> 
> Now to the thread at hand - we can't get Orijen in my country as it was pulled from the shelves due to the irridation issue, so I feed Artemis to one of my dogs which I am very happy with. I recommend Eagle Pack Holistic too.


With reference to what you said in your first paragraph i couldn't agree more. There is a yahoogroup who are totally and dangerously [in my view] fanatical about feeding raw meaty bone diet. Ten/fifteen years ago the recommendation was meat and biscuit and raw marrow bone once a week to clean teeth. I agree with this. Due to our house it is not practical to give a raw meaty bone due to the size of the kitchen. If i had a nice big conservatory with easy clean tiles i would probably go down that route.

My greyhound had been fed on a cheaper dry complete and due to the longer digestion time it was giving her problems in old age. Once on meat and biscuit problems went.

There is good dry complete but i am concerned about the long term effects of contained preservatives. When the ingredients say 55% rice etc - how can that possibly have as much nutrient as meat-biscuit [ 2 parts - 1 part]. I can go to the gas stove and cook up a recipe rice 55% etc.

I don't trust the manufacturers that's all.


----------



## Guest

jessejazza said:


> With reference to what you said in your first paragraph i couldn't agree more. There is a yahoogroup who are totally and dangerously [in my view] fanatical about feeding raw meaty bone diet. Ten/fifteen years ago the recommendation was meat and biscuit and raw marrow bone once a week to clean teeth. I agree with this. Due to our house it is not practical to give a raw meaty bone due to the size of the kitchen. If i had a nice big conservatory with easy clean tiles i would probably go down that route.
> 
> My greyhound had been fed on a cheaper dry complete and due to the longer digestion time it was giving her problems in old age. Once on meat and biscuit problems went.
> 
> There is good dry complete but i am concerned about the long term effects of contained preservatives. When the ingredients say 55% rice etc - how can that possibly have as much nutrient as meat-biscuit [ 2 parts - 1 part]. I can go to the gas stove and cook up a recipe rice 55% etc.
> 
> I don't trust the manufacturers that's all.


I think my dogs are the best judges, to be honest. If they are more active, in great condition, healthy, etc - then I figure that their diet is working for them.

I spend a lot of time choosing the right dried food, and there are a few grain free brands out there too. While I prefer raw, I don't think dried food is made by the devil especially when you consider the vast majority of dogs eat it and most do fine on it - and that would be on the cheap crappy or average brands!

My little chi cross is ten years old and you would never guess it. We regularly get asked if she is still a puppy. Ten years ago we had no idea what made good food or bad food and she has probably tried just about everything - cheap and nasty dried food, average premium food, tinned food, super premium good quality dried, raw etc. I am very happy feeding her Artemis at the moment and I doubt I will change her diet again.


----------



## paddyjulie

mine get raw, mostly because Mavis has a lot of skin allergies and feeding her this way has helped her , cannot give raw chicken though as Ozzy is allergic to it..
Bullterriers are more suited to a natural diet as they do tend to have allergies

juliex


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## LKelly

I used to use Burns all the time but I've now found veterinary foods that are affordable and with Rebel having hip dysplasia I'm hoping it's helping although he hasn't been on it long enough for me to tell yet


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## tyrole

I am slowly changing my pup from Purina Beta to JWB. he didn't sleep very well last night, seemed hyper and had me up at 5 starvingg hungry


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## Beethoven

I feed mine on All in One from the Natural Dog Food Company and all three are in great shape. Several people have mentioned that cost isn't always the best indication of quality, and I really couldn't agree more. All in One is much cheaper than almost all comparable brands (about £38 for 15kg) but ingredient for ingredient, I don't know of anything that compares. I copied this off the back of a bag of adult chicken:
Chicken Meat Meal (min 22%), Fresh Chicken (min 21%), Brown Rice (min 21%), Oats, Mixed Herbs, Barley, Chicken Fat, Sugar Beat, Linseed, Brewers Yeast.
I'd really like to hear anyone else's thoughts.


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## Jerry Kipler

I have tried several different types of dog food. I've tried Ol'Roy and all sorts of things, but the one that my dog seems to like the most has always been Iams. I don't know why. Its a good thing and a bad thing because Iams can be expensive. That's o.k. though as long as I have dog food coupons.


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## Kiskasiberians

Jerry Kipler said:


> I have tried several different types of dog food. I've tried Ol'Roy and all sorts of things, but the one that my dog seems to like the most has always been Iams. I don't know why. Its a good thing and a bad thing because Iams can be expensive. That's o.k. though as long as I have dog food coupons.


Spam Spam Spam


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## Guest

Beethoven said:


> I feed mine on All in One from the Natural Dog Food Company and all three are in great shape. Several people have mentioned that cost isn't always the best indication of quality, and I really couldn't agree more. All in One is much cheaper than almost all comparable brands (about £38 for 15kg) but ingredient for ingredient, I don't know of anything that compares. I copied this off the back of a bag of adult chicken:
> Chicken Meat Meal (min 22%), Fresh Chicken (min 21%), Brown Rice (min 21%), Oats, Mixed Herbs, Barley, Chicken Fat, Sugar Beat, Linseed, Brewers Yeast.
> I'd really like to hear anyone else's thoughts.


My view on that food - it looks alright but
- fresh meat should be the first ingredient really 
- rice is not great for dogs - cereals-free food is better - see JWB now do a cereal free version 
- oat is ok - better than wheat but again cereal-free is better
- sugar beat isnt great but difficult to avoid it seems
Otherwise it looks fine.

I prefer food that contains meat and veggies than meat and cereals, its believed to be a better diet for a dog.
xx


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## muppetandgemma

Both my girls have Burns mixed with a little meat


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## Crossbreedlover

My eldest is fed a barf diet and my pup is on vitalin which is a really good puppy food and not that expensive altho she will be put on barf shortly


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## Sapphire

I have a problem with the majority of dog foods available in the UK, it's quite alarming the rubbish that goes in them! I feed mine on Orijen, a premium dry food, not readily available in the UK yet but can be bought online.

Some might find this link useful to see if their brand is recommended...or not. 
Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost


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## tripgy

Doesnt matter what i give barney he doesnt like any of it only eats with reluctance


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## Guest

tripgy said:


> Doesnt matter what i give barney he doesnt like any of it only eats with reluctance


You could try Barney on a good quality wet food like nature diet, most dogs won't turn their nose up at that.


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## Guest

Sammy is still on the dry food that the breeder gave us but looking to gradually introduce a different dry food within the next few days. What puppy food would you recommend?

Also, I have been reading on the internet and it advises to use a food which has less than 22% protein, however the food the breeder gave me has 28%. Sammy still has quite runny poo, do you think this could be why??

x


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## zack

I started off Cody the collie pup on Beta then moved him to James Wellbeloved. At this point my older X Zeus who has always been hard to please started to eat JW.

After talking to some other dog owners have found out that Burns and CSJ 
are very good to.

Cody has now been on CSJ for about a week. £16 for 15kg bag on line.
Took 2 days to come on standard post. Big pet shops i think rip you off.

He loves it. Have had to hide the bag.


----------



## Pom

Depending on the tpe of dog, depends on they type of food.

With my Vizsla I started her off on Royal Canin for the 1st year and then moved on to the Jamed Wellbeloved, however I found they this gave her a dull coat and vet excited so after speaking to the vet she recommened Nutro as this is lower in protein 19%. Ruby didnt really like this although her coat improved but the excitment didnt. So she is now on Arden Grange Light as this has low protein. She loves it and she has calmed down and looks lovely. This is also the cheapest 

Royal Canin 15kg £44
Nutro 15kg £45
Arden Grange 15kg £27

These are approx prices as cant quiet remember exact.

I will say that feeding good quality food makes a lot of difference to your dogs behaviour, temp, health & the amount they go to the toilet & the amount of plaque that builds up on there teeth.

With dog food you deffinatly benifit from a good quality food.

Hope this is of some help.

Thanks


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## Sarahnya

Feeding too much can also make them loose, perhaps try cutting portion sizes down so long as they don't start to lose weight.

I feed Orijen and it's over 40 protien (primarily from a meat source) and I've never had a problem with my dogs being hyper.


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## jessejazza

tripgy said:


> Doesnt matter what i give barney he doesnt like any of it only eats with reluctance


Have you tried Tripe - either raw or Butcher's tinned. I've just put my new girl on that and she loves it.


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## Roo

Whites Premium is excellent. Hypo-allergenic, Gluten free, Chemical free, Additive free, no cheap fillers..........made with human grade produce. I came across it late last year, my Border Terriers are thriving on it. Superb quality & nutrition at about 25% cheaper than other Premium brands. If you live in West Yorkshire I recommend www.holmfirthbailey.co.uk , offers free samples & free delivery. Other areas see Whites Premium Dog Food


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## Guest

I almost got Whites Premium last time but then decided against it.
It still has cheap filler (sugar beet) and also as much rice as meat - cereals in not really advised as part of a dog's diet - there is also barley in it which I think is better than wheat but still not really good.
And so instead I went with JWB cereals-free version.
When my boy is fully matured I will try to switch him to Orijen and see how that works.
I think it is not advisable to feed food that is highly meat-based to a young dog, however even puppy food should not have less than 20-25% and ideally 30% meat in it (orijen is about 70% I think).


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## nellie_dean

Been feeding Whites for a while and it's a great food for my retriever - she's in great shape, perfect condition for a very active dog and the food's very economical. There's a lot of good info around about beet pulp and I've come to the conclusion that it's not a bad ingredient to have in the food (see Pet Food ingredients - Dog and cat food - the inside story)

White's Premium is on discounted price at www.pet-pantry.co.uk - well below the price of buying direct from Whites themselves.


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## Roo

Re Beet Pulp, Barley & Rice in Whites Premium:

The above ingredients are excellent for dogs and play a critical part in their health:
BEET PULP : Provides an energy source that can improve the health of the colon. Slow to moderately fermentable fiber sources, like Beet Pulp would improve the colon health by providing the beneficial bacteria with a small amount of volatile fatty acids.

BARLEY / RICE : Canines have the ability to consume large quantities of protein & then convert that protein into energy in addition to muscle. They also have the ability to convert many carbohydrate sources into the same kind of energy. Soluable carbohydrates can be easily broken down in the digestive tract of the dog. Soluable carbs are found in Barley & Rice. Barley is also high in the antioxidant Selenium which helps regulate the metabolism, including thyroid hormone metabolism, defence systems and immune functions. There is also evidence that Selenium can help in reducing risk of cancer. RICE is an excellent hypo-allergenic low fat food source that is digested easily & slowly maintaining energy levels. It also helps protect dogs' cells from free radical damage, high in Manganese, keeping bones strong & healthy and like Barley, a good source of Selenium.

All in all, in my opinion & looking at the facts, Whites Premium is one of the best complete dog foods on the market today.........& very economical . You can buy 15KG @ £29.99 0r 2x 15KG @ £55.00 from www.holmfirthbailey.co.uk all with free delivery.


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## nellie_dean

Worth shopping around - WHites is £27.99 for 15kg or 2 for £49.99 at www.pet-pantry.co.uk which even with p&p works out a bit cheaper for 2


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## boxerlife

OMG!! This thread has confused me no end!!! lol!!
I thought Id have a quick look as to what puppy food people would recommend as I will be getting puppy soon. Obviously I will wean off what ever the breeder is feeding first.
Does anyone know of the best dry puppy food to feed for the least amount of money??


----------



## Guest

boxerlife said:


> OMG!! This thread has confused me no end!!! lol!!
> I thought Id have a quick look as to what puppy food people would recommend as I will be getting puppy soon. Obviously I will wean off what ever the breeder is feeding first.
> Does anyone know of the best dry puppy food to feed for the least amount of money??


LOL it is confusing isnt it! 
You can try to get a book on dog nutrition, it may help!
Also it depends what your pup fares well on - in terms of allergies, being hyper etc..
I dont think there is a non-controversial best...
Just try to find sth with as little E numbers or "weird" ingredients in, with the first ingredient being meat and preferably between 20 and 30% of it and good quality meat.

Like I have mentioned grains (rice and cereals) are widely considered not a welcome addition in the diet of a dog..but as you can see not everyone agrees..same with beet pulp it is controversial, some say it is great some that it is a cheap and detrimental filler!

xx


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## slakey

I feed Zeus on Bakers Complete. Anyone know any faults with Bakers, and should I get better?

I also give him half a can of Butchers.

Is there better that I could offer.

Alos Milo is being fed on Beta puppy by the breeders, and I'll try get him on Bakers Puppy, or should I try something better? Really what I want is for both my boys to be on the same food when Milo can have adult food.

Thanks


----------



## crazybones

most peps on here stay clear of the commercial brands as they are full of E numbers.....

i only recommend Orijen (No1) then Nutro(2nd)


----------



## Kinski

I'm another one that would only recommend Orijen, Bakers is one of the worst if not the worst dog food on the planet, Beta is also not a great quality food.

Terri


----------



## nellie_dean

crazybones makes a rather sweeping statement about 'commercial brands as they are full of E numbers.....' which I think needs balancing
1) Firstly any food out there on the pet shop shelves is 'commercial' - no one is in the pet food business as a charitable concern I would guess, and even smaller companies prooducing 'natural foods' are in it for the money!
2) Secondly, and this is a good development, quite a few of the bigger manufacturers are moving away from the use of artificial colours, flavours and preservatives and producing a more natural product. Long may this trend keep on moving forward - manufacturers listening to what the consumer wants!


----------



## slakey

Would the amount of E numbers be the reason for why Zeus is always engergetic, not 100% all down to the food, but could it be apart of it?

And I suppose it's best to change over before the puppy comes.


----------



## Kinski

slakey said:


> Would the amount of E numbers be the reason for why Zeus is always engergetic, not 100% all down to the food, but could it be apart of it?


If you mean he is hyper then yes it could well be down to the food, changing to a good quality food may well help calm him down. My two get Orijen and it's only costing me £2.50 a week to feed the pair of them, whilst it is a more expensive food because you don't feed as much of it it actually works out less expensive.

Terri


----------



## lifeizsweet

Our puppy is currently being fed on Iams, what is the general opinion on a complete dry diet? and Iams in particular?


----------



## Nonnie

slakey said:


> Would the amount of E numbers be the reason for why Zeus is always engergetic, not 100% all down to the food, but could it be apart of it?
> 
> And I suppose it's best to change over before the puppy comes.


I fed mine bakers a good few years ago. Oscar became a nightmare to live with. He was constantly pushing boundaries, was an absolute horror on his walks, harassed my other dog, and was aggressive without being nasty, if that makes sense. He would bark at me constantly, wouldnt do as he was told, would NEVER settle, and would try to grab your clothes, something he hadnt done since he was a pup. He would also grab his lead on walks and refuse to let go.

I took him to the vets and had all sorts of tests done, including hormonal ones. It wasnt until i was chatting to another dog owner that his diet was even suggested. I changed him onto JWB, and it took about a month to 6 weeks, but gradually his personality changed, and he was actually nice to live with.

Id never recommend Bakers to anyone.


----------



## sequeena

Okay I'm joining this discussion late 

We're feeding Sky on Country Choice chicken and rice puppy food. It's £18 for a 12.5kg from a family pet shop


----------



## slakey

Thanks for that information Nonnie.
He's fine once people have been around him for a while, but if he hasn't seen someone for a long time he's very hyper and very jumpy. Also like this if he hears his lead. *god makes me sound like a lousy dog owner *

Part of his hyper-ness could be down to the breed he has in him, Boxer x Labrador, not the best of calm mixes I'll admit myself.

But seems like a change will be a good idea for him and me.

So what are the recommendations of dry food, that'd go well with Butchers tripe?


----------



## jessejazza

lifeizsweet said:


> Our puppy is currently being fed on Iams, what is the general opinion on a complete dry diet? and Iams in particular?


I've heard poor things about Iams. JWB and Burns seem to be the best dry food.

I feed mine on a natural diet as i don't like the quantity of 'poo' from dry complete. Don't forget to give your dog a marrow bone each week to keep teeth clean and gums healthy - free from most butchers!


----------



## Roo

lifeizsweet said:


> Our puppy is currently being fed on Iams, what is the general opinion on a complete dry diet? and Iams in particular?


Does anyone remember the press coverage a few years ago about Iams & the barbaric way they test the food on animals? Morrisey, from the Smiths, led a huge campaign about it trying to get it off the shelves. Based on that alone, I would never ever touch the stuff.:angry:


----------



## lifeizsweet

I must admit it wasn't the food I planned on feeding him, I think I will be spending my day off today researching the best kinds of food for him!


----------



## noushka05

Roo said:


> Does anyone remember the press coverage a few years ago about Iams & the barbaric way they test the food on animals? Morrisey, from the Smiths, led a huge campaign about it trying to get it off the shelves. Based on that alone, I would never ever touch the stuff.:angry:


yes theres been a few threads on Iams recently, i wouldnt touch it either!!


----------



## noushka05

slakey said:


> Thanks for that information Nonnie.
> He's fine once people have been around him for a while, but if he hasn't seen someone for a long time he's very hyper and very jumpy. Also like this if he hears his lead. *god makes me sound like a lousy dog owner *
> 
> Part of his hyper-ness could be down to the breed he has in him, Boxer x Labrador, not the best of calm mixes I'll admit myself.
> 
> But seems like a change will be a good idea for him and me.
> 
> So what are the recommendations of dry food, that'd go well with Butchers tripe?


i agree with Nonnie, its full of junk,sugar & artificial additives

i use Arden grange its a good dry food & they dont test on animals :thumbsup:


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> i agree with Nonnie, its full of junk,sugar & artificial additives
> 
> i use Arden grange its a good dry food & they dont test on animals :thumbsup:


They paying you as well now Noush??
Did you order more!!
lol
DT


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> They paying you as well now Noush??
> Did you order more!!
> lol
> DT


yes im on commission:thumbsup: lol

no im full.... ive not got the room!!!:cryin::cryin:


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> yes im on commission:thumbsup: lol
> 
> no im full.... ive not got the room!!!:cryin::cryin:


I have my Nature diet coming friday! but don't think I can resist that!

Hope he is not discontinuing Noush!!!
lol
DT


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> I have my Nature diet coming friday! but don't think I can resist that!
> 
> Hope he is not discontinuing Noush!!!
> lol
> DT


me too


----------



## nellie_dean

One of the problems dog owners have now is that there is so much choice 

If you don't want to feed a cheap food which contains bi-products etc then there are plenty of alternatives - whether you spend £40+ for 15kg of Burns or less than £30 for one of the alternative natural foods around then you should find something that suits, and remember that what suits one dog may not be best for yours!

The Pets at Home website is a great place to gather information as it's so well set out - and check out their own Wainwrights brand which really is good (I have used it in the past and found it equally as good as Burns which I used to feed and so much cheaper)

These days I feed Whites Premium which is also natural, excellent and economical, but you might also want to check out the natural dog food company and the many other smaller companies who are entering the natural food market.

But at the end of the day '000s of dogs have done very well on cheap and cheerful Pedigree and 'own brand' supermarket food, so I'm guessing the dog's digestion is fairly tolerant!


----------



## Nonnie

slakey said:


> Thanks for that information Nonnie.
> He's fine once people have been around him for a while, but if he hasn't seen someone for a long time he's very hyper and very jumpy. Also like this if he hears his lead. *god makes me sound like a lousy dog owner *
> 
> Part of his hyper-ness could be down to the breed he has in him, Boxer x Labrador, not the best of calm mixes I'll admit myself.
> 
> But seems like a change will be a good idea for him and me.
> 
> So what are the recommendations of dry food, that'd go well with Butchers tripe?


Oscar was and still is hyper, but on Bakers he had a complete personality change. My other dog had tummy problems on it.


----------



## siobhan17

Hi I've just called Burns Contact Us
and spoken to the Nutrition Dept there, who are extremely helpful and have recommended Burns Fish and Brown rice for my westie who has skin iritation .... might be worth a try ..


----------



## Roo

siobhan17 said:


> Hi I've just called Burns Contact Us
> and spoken to the Nutrition Dept there, who are extremely helpful and have recommended Burns Fish and Brown rice for my westie who has skin iritation .... might be worth a try ..


That's interesting that Burns say this. I was recently told that Westies have an intolerance to all grains and this manifests itself in poor coat, skin problems, ear infections etc. I was told that they fare much better on a diet where the main ingredients are Fish & Potato.
Anybody else heard this?


----------



## slakey

Are the Natural Dog Food Company any good?


----------



## smiithy1

royal cannon is the best about i have tryed hundreds of food over the years and found this to be the best allround


----------



## jessejazza

Royal Canin? and darned expensive.

At the end of the day - not much wrong with plain meat [sourced from local butcher] and mixer/biscuit.

As for dry complete - i couldn't agree more... difficult to choose from such a vast array.


----------



## Kiskasiberians

smiithy1 said:


> royal cannon is the best about i have tryed hundreds of food over the years and found this to be the best allround


They might have been before they were taken over by Mars. There have been lots of complaints recently as they "tweek" the formulas


----------



## slakey

Well I used to give Zeus just dry on it's own and after a while of doing that he had a few stomach problems, so my sister suggested getting some meat so it's not so dry, so I got some Butchers and now he's fine.

So more then likely that's how the puppy will be brought up. Just need to find the Dry Food.

I've tried Pedigree Better By Nature, and Zeus' stomach didn't agree with it.

I have read good thing about the Natural Dog Company food on this forum. But I've seen James Well Beloved alot, is this any good? I don't want to be spending stupid amounts of money on Dry Food though.


----------



## LostGirl

James wellbeloved is good food, I found zeb was really windy and had very soft poo's on it. He would stink aswell and i mean really stink so changed him to arden grange for dry and its brilliant. lovely poops and hardly ever farts or if he does they dont smell


----------



## LabWorld

I would stick with James Wellbeloved. Excellent quality food. Some of the cheaper foods are packed with fillers with no nutritional value whatsoever. I agree, it is pricey but you really do get what you pay for in my humble opinion.


----------



## SarahBluePaw

Hi 

All my labs are on wainwrights with is similar to JB, I found the JB a bit too rich on their tum but they get on great with Wainwrights coat is really silky and shiny.


----------



## Nonnie

SarahBluePaw said:


> Hi
> 
> All my labs are on wainwrights with is similar to JB, I found the JB a bit too rich on their tum but they get on great with Wainwrights coat is really silky and shiny.


Ive used Wainwrights and found it really good. It was £19.99 when i first got it, now its almost the same as JWB. As JWB is easier to get hold of, my boys are back on that, but recently their poos have been really sloppy. Although im loathe to change them again, i think i might have to. Although, im waiting for my grain free samples to arrive, so ill see how that goes first.

If not, i may try Arden Grange, much to DT's joy im sure. Im moving my cats from Hills to AG too.


----------



## SarahBluePaw

Nonnie said:


> Ive used Wainwrights and found it really good. It was £19.99 when i first got it, now its almost the same as JWB. As JWB is easier to get hold of, my boys are back on that, but recently their poos have been really sloppy. Although im loathe to change them again, i think i might have to. Although, im waiting for my grain free samples to arrive, so ill see how that goes first.
> 
> If not, i may try Arden Grange, much to DT's joy im sure. Im moving my cats from Hills to AG too.


HI Teddy was on JW and did sloppy poohs very pale looking pooh too


----------



## BuddyTitus

Hi Jo P

you stated you use a Holistic wholebake biscuit - could you please tell me which one?
I amcurrently using the Natural Choice one but they no longer produce it now as company has been liquadated, so looking or a replacement.


----------



## slakey

I think I'll change over to Arden Grange.
How should I do this? Part Bakers, part Arden Grange?


----------



## Nonnie

slakey said:


> I think I'll change over to Arden Grange.
> How should I do this? Part Bakers, part Arden Grange?


Do it gradually over about 10 days. Each day increase the AG, and decrease the Bakers. If he gets runny, just slow down the process, and dont add so much AG at one time.


----------



## LostGirl

I did it 25% of new food 75% of old food for a few days, then 50% 50% of each for a few days then 75% of new food and 25% of old again for a few more days then 100% arden grange it took about 2weeks to change over


----------



## staceydawlz

whats the coments on waggs? i was gona change my pup to that coz shes ona mix of bakers and wellbeloved shes doin great on it and growing fast but sometimes having runny poos...so waggs? want high protein!!!


----------



## Kinski

staceydawlz said:


> whats the coments on waggs? i was gona change my pup to that coz shes ona mix of bakers and wellbeloved shes doin great on it and growing fast but sometimes having runny poos...so waggs? want high protein!!!


Just feed the Wellbeloved then and take her of the Bakers.Wellbeloved is a complete food and there's no need to mix another food into it. The first ingredient in Wagg seems to be wheat, I prefer the first ingredient in the food I feed to be meat, it also has e.e.c. permitted additives which will be b.h.a. and b.h.t., *some* experts believe that these additives can cause cancer, again if a food has them in it I prefer to steer clear of it.

Terri


----------



## Roo

staceydawlz said:


> whats the coments on waggs? i was gona change my pup to that coz shes ona mix of bakers and wellbeloved shes doin great on it and growing fast but sometimes having runny poos...so waggs? want high protein!!!


I would not touch Waggs with a bargepole for 2 reasons:
1. The main protein source is not meat based. If a protein source is not meat based then dogs find it harder to synthasise the protein .

2. The chemicals in the food, in the long term, may, I believe, have a major impact on your dog's health.

Try at all times to stick to a quality, natural diet.


----------



## staceydawlz

need something that i can get in big bags...15kg bags the wellbeloved is quite deer too any other sugestions?? give me a list of good quality stuff..im just lost with all the proteine content etc its quite confusin!!! lol i was just told that she had to have high protien want her to grow at best spose like most dog owners!  x


----------



## Roo

staceydawlz said:


> need something that i can get in big bags...15kg bags the wellbeloved is quite deer too any other sugestions?? give me a list of good quality stuff..im just lost with all the proteine content etc its quite confusin!!! lol i was just told that she had to have high protien want her to grow at best spose like most dog owners!  x


Where abouts are you?


----------



## Jazzy

I feed my Bichon on Wafcol ocean fish and corn because it's the only dry food he likes. He's tried Burns, JWB, Royal Canin, and Arden Grange but he seems to prefer Wafcol to the lot of them.


----------



## staceydawlz

i live in scotland beside aberdeen little town called peterhead, just need something a lil cheaper but good for her x


----------



## Roo

staceydawlz said:


> i live in scotland beside aberdeen little town called peterhead, just need something a lil cheaper but good for her x


Hi,
Try Whites Premium. Whites Premium Dog Food. It is the only complete food I will use. Look at the site & request a couple of free samples.:wink5:


----------



## slakey

Spose I best order some Arden Grange, for Zeus and the puppy?
Or should I just stick to what he's being fed now *purina beta puppy* until he's a few months old?
Also how much should I buy for Zeus and where is it cheapest?


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Im really glad I found this thread because I was just about to ask the exact same thing.

I feed my 8 week old pup, Super dog complete puppy.

I am really worried now though because Ive got a woman coming around from a pet food suplier and she was saying alsorts about the foods I use. She truely has put the fear of god into me.

She said stuff like to make up the meat balence and protien of the food the manufactures put things in like beaks, claws, feet, etc. She also said most of the food is bulking agent and cerial whice is really bad for dogs and that they all contain high salt, fat and something that causes dogs to have bad stomachs.

Im really worried now that after feeding Harmony stuff for 6 years that I could of done her internal damage or something. As for Marley his only 8 weeks tomorrow so hopefully I wont of done him no harm.

The woman said that even the likes of bakers, pedigree and all that are really bad. OMG I feel awful for what I thought was good stuff could be hurting my dogs.

She also said something about their foods only containing the white of the meat (if it was chicken) and that its rice or something like that. To be honest I cant remember what she said because by that point I was rather upset about what I have given Harmony for all this time.


----------



## shazza1969

Have you tried looking at Oscars that comes in 15kg bags and according to their website they do all different ranges even their universal range is better than wagg must admit I feel the same would not touch Wagg and certainly not Pedigree or Bakers Eukanuba and Iams test on animals 
Royal Canin is made in France!!! say no more BUY BRITISH I SAY
My dogs have always been fed on Oscars and its delivered to your door FREE
and have no problems my 11yr old border collie is still bouncing around like a 2yr old since she has been on Pinnacle + it has added Glucosmine MSM etc etc.


----------



## Kinski

I've had a look at Oscars and again the first ingredient is rice and in most of them it seems to be 55%, dogs don't need rice in their diet, carbs turn into sugar which in turn can make dogs hyper. It can be a false economy to feed a cheaper food, feed a food with better ingredients and you will find that you need to give them less of it, that in turn actually works out a cheaper way to feed dogs. I feed Orijen ORIJEN Biologically Appropriate Dog and Cat Foods | Orijen Pet Foods .co.uk and it costs me £2.50 a week to feed my pair ( shelties ) my sister has 2 staffies and it costs her £6 a week to feed her them.

I'm sure I've said it before on this thread but stay away from foods where it says cereal, the company buy in the cheapest one on the market at the time, stay away from one that has derivatives, that's the beaks, claws, fur, and the rest of the crap that humans don't consume. Stay away from E.E.C. permitted additives they could well be B.H.A. and B.H.T. which some experts think may cause cancers.

Terri


----------



## MandyandAngel

Becci-in-Hull said:


> Im really glad I found this thread because I was just about to ask the exact same thing.
> 
> I feed my 8 week old pup, Super dog complete puppy.
> 
> I am really worried now though because Ive got a woman coming around from a pet food suplier and she was saying alsorts about the foods I use. She truely has put the fear of god into me.
> 
> She said stuff like to make up the meat balence and protien of the food the manufactures put things in like beaks, claws, feet, etc. She also said most of the food is bulking agent and cerial whice is really bad for dogs and that they all contain high salt, fat and something that causes dogs to have bad stomachs.
> 
> Im really worried now that after feeding Harmony stuff for 6 years that I could of done her internal damage or something. As for Marley his only 8 weeks tomorrow so hopefully I wont of done him no harm.
> 
> The woman said that even the likes of bakers, pedigree and all that are really bad. OMG I feel awful for what I thought was good stuff could be hurting my dogs.
> 
> She also said something about their foods only containing the white of the meat (if it was chicken) and that its rice or something like that. To be honest I cant remember what she said because by that point I was rather upset about what I have given Harmony for all this time.


Hi Becci,

I was the same. I was feeding Angel who is also 6 years old Bakers believing i was feeding her the best, believing the tv advert.

I didn't know until i came on here and like you i was upset, but now i am feeding her Orijen for dry and raw for wet. She gets raw every other day with a bit of Orijen and just Orijen on the other days and i have noticed a difference in her coat and she seems to have more energy.

I am trying not to think about what i feed her in the past and am hoping that no damage has been done.

Mandy


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Well I have wrote the bad things that Terri wrote about and Im going to do to our pet store later today and find the best I can.

Also I have someone from trophypetfoods to come talk to me about foods and stuff. She reckons there food is great. Can you tell me if you think this food is ok please? (http://www.trophypetfoods.co.uk/products/standard.htm)


----------



## Beethoven

Becci-in-Hull said:


> Also I have someone from trophypetfoods to come talk to me about foods and stuff. She reckons there food is great. Can you tell me if you think this food is ok please? (Trophy Pet Foods)


With wheat as both the first and second ingredients and a nice dose of artificial colourants and antioxidants, I'm thinking probably not.


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Beethoven said:


> With wheat as both the first and second ingredients and a nice dose of artificial colourants and antioxidants, I'm thinking probably not.


The woman that is coming says there foods are the absolute bests... grrrrr canvesers..... lol..

Would you recomend any of the trophy foods?

I looked through some of the recommended foods people have mentioned on this thread but most dont sell near me and the one that does I just cant afford 

I dont want this woman to come and tell me the foods are good and for me to get roped in and buy a bag. So please could you take a peek and see what you think?


----------



## Beethoven

Their Holistic range doesn't seem too bad to me, but it's not cheap. I'm sure you could do a lot better for the money, and most good foods will deliver to you. What kind of monthly budget do you have?


----------



## Cavalierlover123

Mine are on Royal Canine cavalier king charles and Royal Canine juniour


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Brainless said:


> My personal choice is Arden Grange. Natural Premium Dog Food & Cat Food From Arden Grange
> 
> British made with a higher meat content than most and no artificial colours etc.
> 
> The lab version suits many dogs with iffy digestion nd keeps their coats in top nick.
> 
> Also it is very well priced on the breeder/professional user scheme where it is VAT Free and in plain bags.
> You can get two or more bags delivered FOC from their distributers.


Which one is the lab version? How much would you feed and how many times a day? (Im thinking for Harmony who is a cross Lab collie.)

Plain Bags - Where and how do you go about getting your hands on them?

Thanks


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Please can someone recomend one of the following for me from this website? Natural Premium Dog Food from Arden Grange I will be wanting it for nearly 6 year old Harmony who is a Labrador cross collie.


----------



## Sabre

We have just switched Sabre onto Wainrights Salmon and Potato (from Pets at Home) on the advice of members on the Husky Owners Forum and he is doing really well on it and loves it. It comes either in 2 kg (about £6.81) or 15 kg bags at £30 which is more expensive than what we used to buy but like I say he is doing really well, Siberian Huskies are known for having dodgy stomachs but he is fine with this.


----------



## LostGirl

Becci-in-Hull said:


> Please can someone recomend one of the following for me from this website? Natural Premium Dog Food from Arden Grange I will be wanting it for nearly 6 year old Harmony who is a Labrador cross collie.


Any flavours  you want adult in whatever flavour you think sounds the nicest but look on ebay you can get two 15kg bags of lamb i think for under £45 which is a mega mega bargin!! phone them up and ask for a tester bag of food and they will send you out some


----------



## CheekoAndCo

Now I've decided to change Cheeko's hard food I've been wondering... He's 8 and alot of senior pet food seems to be for 8+ but does it actually make a difference? He also needs to lose some weight so can anyone recomend anything? I saw dry food for poodles can't remember who makes it but not sure if it's a con.


----------



## Roo

look at Whites Premium Dog Food , they do a senior/light. log on and request free sample. the food is fantastic.


----------



## crawfom

staceydawlz said:


> i live in scotland beside aberdeen little town called peterhead, just need something a lil cheaper but good for her x


Try Joe & Jack's from joesnaturalpetstore.co.uk it is cheaper than James Wellebeloved and Burns and I know they deliver all over the UK.
My dog loves it and I am now trying their new puppy food too


----------



## Rachh

Obviously the more expensive the better however some lower market brands are just as good.

My dog has a 15kg bag of supadog sensitive at 24.00 a bag.
however the normal supadog adult is around 15.00
never had any problems with this food 

Eukanuba are also rather good as i recently went to a training evening hosted by them and found some of their facts very interesting.
Especially in the breed specific range.


----------



## Kinjilabs

*Used to feed my dogs on the expensive foods then swapped to Chappie complete, never used to rate it cos it was a cheap food but mine are fine on it, 15kg bag is £14.99*


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Ive just ordered 2 15kg Natural Premium Dog Food from Arden Grange, works out £49.98 including delivery, so thats only like £25 a bag. Scary though because Harmonys normal food is only £8.50 for a 15kg bag

Hopefully I wont use so many poopascoop bags not though:smilewinkgrin: lmao

Thanks for all the help and advice, its much appreciated.

I would also like to mention that I give Marley super dog puppy and it seems ok, however I did see not so great things in the superdog so you might want to check the ingredients because at £25 a 15kg bag, there are better foods out there.

I also plan on changing Marley across to Arden Grange puppy when she finishes her bag of Superdog puppy.


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Kinjilabs said:


> *Used to feed my dogs on the expensive foods then swapped to Chappie complete, never used to rate it cos it was a cheap food but mine are fine on it, 15kg bag is £14.99*


Just looked into Chappie and it has animal and veg derivatives (like claws, beaks, etc)


----------



## shazza1969

Not sure about Trophy they say they deliver but I was let down twice with them years ago and I know someone who used to have and they found them unreliable
hence why I use Oscars i've used them for a number of years now and never been let down once the guy who delivers to me is great and very helpful


----------



## Kiskasiberians

Becci-in-Hull said:


> Just looked into Chappie and it has animal and veg derivatives (like claws, beaks, etc)


I'm afraid that the Trophy representatives is telling you a lot of inaccurate information. The idea that cheap pet food is filled with claws, beaks etc may have been the case many years ago (and is still the case in many countries) but under EU pet food manufacturing regulations pet food has to consist of food fit for human consumption.

BTW Trophy do not manufacture the food themselves (neither do Oscars and most of the other niche brands) they are all made by 1 of 3 large dry food manufactuerers in the UK. They all use the same ingredients just each one tweeks the formulas to match the market segment that they want to target. Trophy and Oscars are franchises, where anyone gives the company a wad of cash and they get access to the branding etc. This means that the representatives that visit you are a bit like Avon, they make profit from the food but only have a limited knowledge on nutrition and only sell you the one brand.

There are many alternatives for sourcing better quality food in the Internet age, most companies will deliver to your door via courier, some suppliers (NorthWest Pet foods, Mobile Pet foods, Berriewood Wholesale, others) have a home delivery service.


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

If that is the case what in your opinion are are modern day derivatives?

Also Ive also found these websites which might be helpful to people: The Truth About Dog And Cat Food and UK Dog Foods - Understanding labelling practices - meat & animal derivatives, cereals, EC permitted additives

Heres a brief one on animal derivatives: http://www.best-dog-food-review.com/67901/67927.html


----------



## Nonnie

I had a lovely chat with Vanessa from Arden Grange, as im thinking of changing over, as JWB seems to be giving my boys the squits.

I was really surpised this morning, when i got a free 2kg sack in the post. I only asked for a small smaple to see if they liked it. Now i will be able to test if it agree with them, as they will last a good 10 days to 2 weeks.


----------



## dogmatix

"I'm afraid that the Trophy representatives is telling you a lot of inaccurate information. The idea that cheap pet food is filled with claws, beaks etc may have been the case many years ago (and is still the case in many countries) but under EU pet food manufacturing regulations pet food has to consist of food fit for human consumption."

Can I ask whether pet food has to consist of ingredients fit for human consumption or whether the ingredients must have come from an animal fit for human consumption.

A beak can still come from a human grade chicken althought beaks themselves aren't fit for human consumption.

I was under the impression the animal must be fit for human consumption but the cut of meat put in the food is not necessarily the same stuff you would get in sainsbury's. The scrag ends left are still from a chicken fit for human consumption but not necessarily a great quality of meat left once we've nicked our bits !


----------



## Roo

Correct! It is the animal that has to be fit for human consumption NOT the actual part of the animal, i.e hoof. The animal cannot be diseased.


----------



## Becci-in-Hull

Well suprise suprise!!! The woman from Trophy never turned up, So Im glad I bought the Arden grange now.  Fingers crossed that it agrees with Harmony.


----------



## abillones26

Sometimes the smell of packed dry dogs food is irritating to my nose, but i realized by putting some water, the smell is eliminated, well not totally but just a little. I've also noticed that dogs really appreciate the saucy appeal of their food. cute dogs!!


----------



## Henry52

I've just started feeding my greyhound the Vitalin adult maintenance diet which is a complete food and she loves it. She was suffering with a really dry coat and it seems to have made her skin and coat better too, she's stopped scratching so much which is good  They do quite a lot of foods with a sensitive and puppy and a bitch diet too which is good and the prices are really good too. I was feeding mine james wellbeloved but it became too expensive, this seems to be a much cheaper option but same quality, i shopped around for mine and the best price I could find was at www.luxurypetstore.co.uk/pet_food.html . its worth trying it with your dog .


----------



## xxwelshcrazyxx

I had my dogs on Science dry and they all loved it, then they went off it for some reason, then at a later date I changed to Bakers Complete and havent had any problems with it, my dogs love it. It is £5.80 for a 3Kg bag.


----------



## jessejazza

Henry52 said:


> I've just started feeding my greyhound the Vitalin adult maintenance diet which is a complete food and she loves it. She was suffering with a really dry coat and it seems to have made her skin and coat better too, she's stopped scratching so much which is good.


She's stopped the scratching because it's a lower protein. Sighthounds should have a lower protein diet 18-20%.


----------



## EmzieAngel

From a pup I fed Bailey Royal Canin.
It's about £17 for a 4kg bag.
I only started using it as my vet recommended it and he's been fine on it.
Though now he's a year old he's gone off it, but has some every now and then.
x


----------



## peterleonne001

Experts say Orijen is as good as dry dog food gets. Orijen has great meat content, with deboned chicken, chicken meal and turkey meal listed as the first three ingredients, and lots of other name meats and meat meals listed just a little further back.
i never ever ever feed what the bag says, ever.
feed less than the canidae, if your dog gets chubby, cut back. If they get way too thin, feed more.
jus as a reference....my 45lb VERY active dog only ever ate 1 cup total of EVO a day.if you like this comment then you can visit this link to know about pet 
foods :-WagSocial.com
hope U'll like it..


----------



## nellie_dean

I'm intrigued to know who the 'experts' are who rate Orijen so highly - I remain a sceptic based upon (if nothing else) its protein content which seems far too high for a dry food, based upon the many years experience that pet food companies, not to mention AAFCO in the US have built up over the last few decades. 
John Burns has shown over thelast 20 years that a low protein food can help in may common health problems of dogs, and resarch by (I think) Purina has beacked this up scientifically


----------



## LucyJ

I have had excellent results with Orijen, the Purina research you refer to is pro high protein diets 
Purina Research Report 1997 â Vol. 0, VET 6115

and these links are also interesting reading

Protein Requirements and Meat Diets for Dogs and Cats in ThePetCenter.com

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf


----------



## marleysdad

i thought I knew the best dry dog food. Chappie. recommended by the Manchester dogs home and put as second best to Hills Science by my vet.

However following some good posts here, I have concluded that different dogs require different diets just as humans do. An athlete will have a vastly different diet to an office worker.

It is not good to give wet(tinned/pouch food) alone.

AVOID food with lots of fillers and colours eg high cereal or soya content.

Change flavours occasionally to keep the dog interested. 

Feed less than recommended unless you have a working dog.

If feeding dry food alone give plenty of water or soak the food.

When giving your dog treats, sausages, leftovers etc remember that they are not human and require much less food. so where a couple of sausage may feed a human they will overfeed a dog, especially a medium or small dog.

Avoid cooked bones like chops, they can splinter or block digestion

Don't give dogs pork or chocolate, ever.

My dogs favourite food is fresh Horse poo. 
I wonder if he knows where it comes from? Anyone know how to train him off it?


----------



## pawspetfood

we do HYPOALLERGENIC(free from ingredients known to cause allergic reactions)

we also do complete dog food key points 
No soya (protein filler)

No Dairy

No artificial colours

No GM Cereals

15kg bags starting from £10.50

if anyone would like a free sample please email [email protected] 
hope this is ok to post


----------



## nellie_dean

LucyJ said:


> I have had excellent results with Orijen, the Purina research you refer to is pro high protein diets
> Purina Research Report 1997 â Vol. 0, VET 6115
> 
> No, that's a piece writen about geriatric dogs!
> 
> There was interesting research done a few years ago by Purina where they kept a group of dogs on their normal diet, and a second group on a lower protein/fat diet and followed them through to the end of their lives. They found that the group on the restricted diet were leaner and healthier and lived longer than the control group.
> 
> This confirms what companies like Burns have known for decades, and why these types of food are so good for treating conditions such as poor digestion, skin problems, obesity, bad breath etc.


----------



## Kinski

I can only say why I feed Orijen and that's because there is no rubbish in it, there are no added cereals or rice both of which are unnecessary in a dogs diet all they are are fillers, also the cereal which is carbohydrates turns into sugar which can make a dog hyper. I don't particularly want to feed my dog a food where the main ingredient is carbohydrates, at least 40% of the majority of dog foods on the market are made up of carbs, some are even higher. There are no derivatives of any kind and there are no e.c. permitted additives as there are in some of the Purina brands. I used to feed my last girl Burns and if I had to change food that is the one I would go back to.

Terri


----------



## Guest

I feed Holly arden Grange Performance. i buy this food as its the only one Holly liked after trial and error on other brands. I get it cheap too. £29 for 15KG from a wholesaler. She loves it and her health is in peak condition so im happy with it and thats what she will now always stay on


----------



## Guest

nellie_dean said:


> I'm intrigued to know who the 'experts' are who rate Orijen so highly - I remain a sceptic based upon (if nothing else) its protein content which seems far too high for a dry food, based upon the many years experience that pet food companies, not to mention AAFCO in the US have built up over the last few decades.
> John Burns has shown over thelast 20 years that a low protein food can help in may common health problems of dogs, and resarch by (I think) Purina has beacked this up scientifically


Great post! I would certainly be concerned regarding the protien levels, I am aware that there i vast difference between the quality of proteins! but these levels just ring bells for me! I'll stick with my arden grange me finks!


----------



## Kinski

What about dogs that are fed a barf diet, that's very high in protein and very low in carbs, there are barf feeders that use Orijen as a back up if they for some reason can't feed barf, I'm thinking if they are on a camping holiday and can't have the raw food chilled properly. If I had to change I would go back to Burns but I hope that it won't become necessary.

Terri


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## Viki

James wellbeloved , its a complete food and good for all breeds, it appears expensive but you wont have to feed as much as you would the tinned meat to get all the nutrition. my vets recommended it to me and iv had no problems since!


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## davehyde

food and feeding is a personal and preferential thing.

i tried to research all the foods and my mind just turned to mush.

mine was on RC from the breeder and he seems to like it and do well on it.

thinking of trying aukurtay tho as it seems to have decent ingredients and is a whole lot cheaper, 39.99 for two 15kg sacks.


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## dallylover

davehyde said:


> food and feeding is a personal and preferential thing.
> 
> i tried to research all the foods and my mind just turned to mush.
> 
> mine was on RC from the breeder and he seems to like it and do well on it.
> 
> thinking of trying aukurtay tho as it seems to have decent ingredients and is a whole lot cheaper, 39.99 for two 15kg sacks.


just wondering where you are getting autarky at that price from ? i want to feed my dogs and puppy on it after alot of research


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## jessejazza

Kinski said:


> What about dogs that are fed a barf diet, that's very high in protein and very low in carbs, there are barf feeders that use Orijen as a back up if they for some reason can't feed barf, I'm thinking if they are on a camping holiday


I wouldn't class myself as a barf feeder but i do feed a natural diet. I'd just feed tinned food for that time away. Problem with dry complete is switching their digestion over to a food that takes 8-10 hrs to go through compared with 3-4 hrs on a natural diet.


----------



## Kinski

jessejazza said:


> I wouldn't class myself as a barf feeder but i do feed a natural diet. I'd just feed tinned food for that time away. Problem with dry complete is switching their digestion over to a food that takes 8-10 hrs to go through compared with 3-4 hrs on a natural diet.


I'm only saying what barf feeders that I know and ones on other forums I'm a member of have said, what tinned food do you feed.

Terri


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## shazalhasa

I give mine Royal Canin but it's not the main food, it's just a back up to the other stuff that I give them... raw chicken wings, raw lamb bones, raw mince, cooked foods (leftovers) such as pasta bolognaise, hotpot, sunday roast dinner leftovers.

I wouldn't have mine on just dry food alone, imagine eating dry toast every day  thats what it's like for them, it's a very unnatural diet and is bound to be pretty boring.

There are so many dry foods to choose from and even though I give it as a back up, I wouldn't recommend it as a main food source. Think back to the good old days when the family dogs ate nothing but leftover table scraps and the odd raw bone from the butchers, they were healthier, lived longer and most likely a lot happier.


----------



## jessejazza

Kinski said:


> I'm only saying what barf feeders that I know and ones on other forums I'm a member of have said, what tinned food do you feed.
> Terri


I don't feed either dog tinned - there on plain meat, biscuit and gnawing bones to keep their teeth clean. If i was going away camping for a week i might feed tinned or buy supermarket mince for that time.

Tinned used to be good and easily obtainable. I tried butcher's, pedigree and chappie on my saluki cross when i first had her and have to say that she didn't keep weight on. Goodness knows what they put in any commercial food now but i'll stick plain pet mince meat from the local butcher with biscuit. 20p per bag [3lbs]. Not that cost is a consideration to me but the fact that i know what is in it.


----------



## juce

hi all im thinking of changing my 2 staffys onto orijen,do you think this would be ok for a pregnant bitch also,as im thinking about breeding,
regards juce


----------



## tashi

juce said:


> hi all im thinking of changing my 2 staffys onto orijen,do you think this would be ok for a pregnant bitch also,as im thinking about breeding,
> regards juce


Been feeding this to two of the dogs here and having good results with it, both have put on weight and coat and skin is good.


----------



## Matrix/Logan

I think if you feed a super premium food such as James Wellbeloved you get great results from them, great shiny coats, great teeth, less waste produced, you don't get runny tummies! So i think if you weigh up the cost of feeding it is well worth the price.

Work out a daily costing on how long a sack lasts you and i think you will be pleasantly surprised at the economical price of it.

I feed iams to my pup and a 15 kg sack lasts him about a 5/6 weeks so the daily cost works out at less than £1 !!! I think that is very reasonable for a 5 month old gsd!


----------



## juce

Thanks, any advice on the best place to order from?was looking at pet planet!


----------



## tashi

juce said:


> Thanks, any advice on the best place to order from?was looking at pet planet!


Have to admit I bought it at a show and have joined their breeder scheme so sorry cant help you with that one


----------



## juce

ok no problem,seen it at 42.25 which is pretty good


----------



## TillynMe

I buy Orijen at Zooplus.co.uk
It's £11.95 for 2.5kg. Tilly isn't a great eater and i struggled to find something she liked but she eats this well. She gets Orijen at one meal and JWB wet for the other.


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## Guest

juce said:


> ok no problem,seen it at 42.25 which is pretty good


I just got two sacks of Orijen for £80 at zooplus (thats 27 kilos of food) - the normal price is like £83 (well the normal discounted price at the moment I should say) and then you get an extra 5% off for orders above £75...
I think its a good deal 
Ive calculated it that with Orijen feeding my 15 months old SBT should cost MAX £5 a week :thumbup:


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## juce

Thats a great deal,and five pound a week isnt anything really


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## LucyJ

I got a similar price from Mutley and Mog and it arrived in 2 days.


----------



## Kinski

Oblada said:


> I just got two sacks of Orijen for £80 at zooplus


Quite a few of us have stopped ordering stuff from zooplus as their delivery is abysmal, I ordered Orijen dog food from them a few months ago and they sent cat food instead. I'm going to start ordering it straight from Orijen u.k. as I've been told they deliver within 24 hours.

Terri


----------



## fitank

Hi

My two - a lab (about 35kg too fat!) and a mongrel (15kg hound type!) have been on Orijen for ages but I think I'm overfeeding them. I've just got a new internet rescue dog - an English Setter (23.3kg) and I want to switch him to Orijen too although I'm scared he will get too hyper. He is also on meds for anaemia as he was abandoned for a long time in Southern Italy.

I've read all the posts on this thread (!) and it seems you Orijen users feed a lot less than the packet says. Can you let me know how much you DO feed?

Thanks!
Fiona
www.petsinitaly.com


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## Kinski

I've never measured out the amount of Orijen I give my pair, I just look at it and think ''that'll do the fat wee oik ( Abby )'', I give Arran a wee bit more as he's bigger and is more active than Abby. Abby came to me a couple of kilo's overweight and she is now nearing a decent weight for a sheltie. I do know a lot of people who think that you should reduce what it says on a packet of dog food by 25% and that does seem to keep their dogs in good condition.

Terri


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## LucyJ

fitank said:


> Hi
> 
> My two - a lab (about 35kg too fat!) and a mongrel (15kg hound type!) have been on Orijen for ages but I think I'm overfeeding them. I've just got a new internet rescue dog - an English Setter (23.3kg) and I want to switch him to Orijen too although I'm scared he will get too hyper. He is also on meds for anaemia as he was abandoned for a long time in Southern Italy.
> 
> I've read all the posts on this thread (!) and it seems you Orijen users feed a lot less than the packet says. Can you let me know how much you DO feed?
> 
> Thanks!
> Fiona
> Pets in Italy


I feed slightly less than on the packet except for my springer who is fed the amount for active dog - he is out working a lot and needs the energy. As for being hyper, I have a rescue spaniel cross breed who was very hyper when we got her but has calmed down a lot and is fed Orijen. I would say start at the lowest end of the feeding guide and increse if they get to skinny.


----------



## BigBearsRule

dallylover said:


> just wondering where you are getting autarky at that price from ? i want to feed my dogs and puppy on it after alot of research


If you know anyone who is a member of Costco they are selling Autarky Summer for 12-99 a 15 kg sack


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## davehyde

Chudleys Pet Store: Welcome

these sell the aukarty cheap if you dont hace access to costco


----------



## Guest

Kinski said:


> Quite a few of us have stopped ordering stuff from zooplus as their delivery is abysmal, I ordered Orijen dog food from them a few months ago and they sent cat food instead. I'm going to start ordering it straight from Orijen u.k. as I've been told they deliver within 24 hours.
> 
> Terri


well so far never had any problem - it has always been spot on with me 
Ordered on Tuesday, arrived Thursday cant complain 



fitank said:


> Hi
> 
> My two - a lab (about 35kg too fat!) and a mongrel (15kg hound type!) have been on Orijen for ages but I think I'm overfeeding them. I've just got a new internet rescue dog - an English Setter (23.3kg) and I want to switch him to Orijen too although I'm scared he will get too hyper. He is also on meds for anaemia as he was abandoned for a long time in Southern Italy.
> 
> I've read all the posts on this thread (!) and it seems you Orijen users feed a lot less than the packet says. Can you let me know how much you DO feed?
> 
> Thanks!
> Fiona
> Pets in Italy


On the hyper thing I dont think you need worry too much with Orijen - its not so much the level of protein as the additives/preservatives/sugary stuff (all the junk food) that makes dogs hyper  so with Orijen you should be safe 
You need to adapt the food according to your dog; does he finish the bowl quickly, does he seem hungry during the day, does he look over weight or under weight...

xx


----------



## jessejazza

fitank said:


> I've read all the posts on this thread (!) and it seems you Orijen users feed a lot less than the packet says. Can you let me know how much you DO feed?
> 
> Thanks!
> Fiona
> Pets in Italy


When i fed my greyhound complete feed i was feeding almost 1/2 what the packet says. All complete feeds seem to recommend too much hence why so many folk have overweight dogs. As you've already mentioned someone fed there's 1/4 less other 1/3 less. Like humans dogs will have different metabolisms.

I now have two Saluki crosses [both 18 kg]; the 2 yrs has a 1/3 more than the 4 yrs old as she is a more energetic dog... and just needs a bit more. I weigh them every couple of months and weigh their food each meal [although i'm now feeding a wet diet]. I do think weighing a dogs food is important - a mere oz of extra meat will result in the 4 yr putting on weight although the 2 yr can have a bit more and not appear to put weight on.

Just for your interest quantities for a wet diet are easier to calculate. The guide for decades has been; for meat feed 2 % of body weight + 1/2 of biscuit/mixer.
18 kgs = 40 lbs. so feed 0.8 lbs meat per day = 13 oz.

I give 6 oz meat + 3 oz mixer per meal for the 4 yr. 8oz meat + 4 oz mixer to the 2 yr as she needs a bit extra. This guide i've found is spot on. Even tinned food recommends far too much.

Hope this helps.


----------



## PoppyM

Hi, I'm new to the Forum and have enjoyed reading everything here. I would really like some advice. I have been feeding my 2 year old collie on Genesis for a year now - this is what she was having when we got her. She really doesn't like it that much but has been thriving on it. She is really healthy and looks great. Having read all the comments on dry food, I have learned a lot, such as high protein foods make for hyper active dogs (which I have) and also have read a lot of comments about itching (which she has). I wonder if this diet could be responsible (protein is 26%). Has anyone else either used or heard of Genesis, and do you think I should change? Would appreciate any advice. Thanks.
PoppyM


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## jessejazza

Genesis isn't one i had heard of but i looked on their website. It seems to me a quality dry complete if the price is anything to go by. For a maintenance diet protein level is a little high... but as a comparison ProPlan [who claim to have spent £Ms on research] are closer to 30% protein.

There are now so many makes available and it is bewildering to know what to feed - i'd say stick to one of the well known ones. Visit the factory and hear what they say. I live about 7 miles from Spillers so i would be feeding that - but i'm not feeding dry complete at present.

Price isn't necessarily a good guide. Spillers have their own factory which reduces their costs. Some makes use a process factory and thus pass on a higher cost.

If you change do a lot of research beforehand as it's unwise to keep changing their food. I don't know much about Collies and nil about their digestion and metabolism. I would think due to their working origin that they are a low rate of metabolism and thus a lower protein would be more appropriate. My Saluki-Collie seems to have a faster rate of metabolism that expected and so i feed her more.


----------



## dimkaz

hi all,
i just answered on another post regarding wet and dry food, i thought appropriate to post here my experience hoping it will help:
quoting: "HI all,
sorry to intrude.
I'm new and still not fully aware of the etiquette of forum...however the debate wet or dry has taken up a lot of my time in the past and i wanted to share my opinion/experience:

Wet food is 70% - or more - water...to feed a large dog (30+ kilograms) on that you'll need around or more than 1 kg of food per day to supply your dog's needs. this is 1) very expensive, 2) put under stress the tummy and 3) -by consequence- produces excessive amount of smelly poo (with the problem that can cause to the dog to pass it several times a day and whoever picks it up).

In my opinion the best way to feed our companions is to vary their diet as much as possible and i use dry food and cook for them (once a week and then freeze the lot). their bowls is usually 1/2 of dry food, and 1/2 of mix of meat, vegetables and rice (I do not use onion obviously) sometimes i add stale bread and some gravy. (fresh and clean water should always be available either with dry or wet food).

I suppose that for small dogs wet food can be fine (but still, in proportion, the problem will be the same); for puppies, especially of large breeds, i am planning of applying the same principles that's working so well with the mother and "aunty", except puppy food goes in the blender with added puppy formula milk and water .

In choosing their feed, i always look for small and independent companies that have some sort of arrangement with vet colleges for trying their products on a long-ish term basis. there is only a little number of these companies left in the UK, however they are still out there! the problem with these companies is that they have a network of suppliers very underdeveloped and more often than not i have to buy over the internet.

At the moment and for quite some time, i am buying Sneyd's Wonderdog, the company is based in Doncaster and has a range of very high quality food, without additives. the only draw back is that the BestBefore date is not as long as the high-street brands (that's because Sneyd;s does not contain any additives) so you cannot buy in bulk. however the price is extremely competitive (about £10-£12 pound for 15kg for adult dogs) and a bit more expensive for puppies and juniors.

By the Way, i am in no way connected with this company, or any other company, for that matter...i just like their products.

I hope this contribution helps in the choice!" end quoting.


----------



## jessejazza

dimkaz said:


> a] Wet food is 70% - or more - water...to feed a large dog (30+ kilograms) on that you'll need around or more than 1 kg of food per day to supply your dog's needs. this is 1) very expensive, 2) put under stress the tummy and 3) -by consequence- produces excessive amount of smelly poo (with the problem that can cause to the dog to pass it several times a day and whoever picks it up).
> 
> b] In my opinion the best way to feed our companions is to vary their diet as much as possible and i use dry food and cook for them (once a week and then freeze the lot). their bowls is usually 1/2 of dry food, and 1/2 of mix of meat, vegetables and rice (I do not use onion obviously) sometimes i add stale bread and some gravy. (fresh and clean water should always be available either with dry or wet food).
> 
> c] At the moment and for quite some time, i am buying Sneyd's Wonderdog, the company is based in Doncaster and has a range of very high quality food, without additives. the only draw back is that the BestBefore date is not as long as the high-street brands (that's because Sneyd;s does not contain any additives) so you cannot buy in bulk. however the price is extremely competitive (about £10-£12 pound for 15kg for adult dogs) and a bit more expensive for puppies and juniors.


a] Most animals are about 80% water including humans and feed on similar. Dry complete is not cheaper depending where you source food from. Your comment 2) is incorrect - on natural food the stomach will not be put under stress, quite the reverse - have you read about raw meaty bone diets or barf. Regarding poo i think you'd find the dog's outgoings would be halved on a wet diet as there isn't so much waste. The higher quality Dry complete seems to produce less indicating that more is used by the body.

b] One should not vary a dog's diet too much. One should not mix Dry complete with Wet as the dry complete is designed to swell and be broken down over a much longer period than a Wet diet. Known cases of intestinal disorders have increased over the last couple of decades. Vets recommend Dry complete a lot of the time because it's easier for the owner... but will the dog live longer? Vet's even now say mix both but they are surgeons and not nutritionists in all fairness.

c] Sneyd do produce what would appear to be quality food at a budget price. Protein 24% is still on the high side for a maintenance diet.


----------



## dimkaz

jessejazza said:


> a] Most animals are about 80% water including humans and feed on similar. Dry complete is not cheaper depending where you source food from. Your comment 2) is incorrect - on natural food the stomach will not be put under stress, quite the reverse - have you read about raw meaty bone diets or barf. Regarding poo i think you'd find the dog's outgoings would be halved on a wet diet as there isn't so much waste. The higher quality Dry complete seems to produce less indicating that more is used by the body.
> 
> b] One should not vary a dog's diet too much. One should not mix Dry complete with Wet as the dry complete is designed to swell and be broken down over a much longer period than a Wet diet. Known cases of intestinal disorders have increased over the last couple of decades. Vets recommend Dry complete a lot of the time because it's easier for the owner... but will the dog live longer? Vet's even now say mix both but they are surgeons and not nutritionists in all fairness.
> 
> c] Sneyd do produce what would appear to be quality food at a budget price. Protein 24% is still on the high side for a maintenance diet.


on your point A) -> food containing that huge amount of water (that you pay for) put definetly under strain the tummy of the dogs (especially a large breed that needs over a kg of wet to supply the body of the necessary nutrients)...a kg of food means at least 70-80% needs to be passed out *and this will cause inflammations given the quantity...
sub a) i never commented against the natural food (if you;d read below you see that i give my dogs natural food (1/2 of their meal is meat and vegetables) to be precise meat is only lightly cocked while vegetables are overcooked to increase the % that can be more easily digested. there will be a loss of vitamins, and that is when the dry food comes into the equation.
using high quality dry food, means that dog's feed mustn't be in huge amount to achieve nutrient requirements. and this brings me to your point B), given that the quantity if high quality dry food is limited , although the nutritional values are high, the expansion (that happens in the bowl for 3/4 and continue for the rest of the 1/4 in the tummy), won't cause any enlargement, hence is gentle on the stomach (i have actually measured these proportion because as a happy owner of two very large dogs - 60kg one and 30kg the other, i have to pay particular attention to avoid any form of upset). regarding vets' suggestions i would follow only in case of recovery (post surgery feeding for spaying and after c-section), the vet with specialisation in nutrition should be consulted in this case - hopefully one that hasn;t got any dog food corporation sponsoring the practice...(their suggestions depend upon the general health of the dogs, the size and the characteristics rather than general considerations of how easy is to feed them...and their bill is not sky high - i think i paid 24 pounds per dogs for the consultation including a check up-. also varying the dogs diet in the short term will cause some discomfort due to habituation of the stomach to old monotonous diet, but as long as you progress gradually, the capability of the digestive system will improve and after a couple of moths of gentle and gradual re-habituation the dog's stomach will be able to process efficiently the food intake.
your sub c), as i said, i'm looking for small independent British companies that have links with veterinary colleges (rather than large multinational food corporations) in order to source feed as good as possible backed by studies that are verified by public organisation like veterinary colleges and universities' labs. having said that, if you know of any of the such, i would like very much to try them out and eventually report my experience with them.
i mentioned sneyd's because i'm using it at the moment and i feel confident in mixing it with the food i prepare... but i am open to try new companies' products as long as they comply with the points i mentioned above...

other than that, i would really recommend to talk to a vet with specialisation in nutrition (they usually "lurk" in universities departments and you;d need to carry out a little research before you can find one, they are usually not sponsored by big companies, as their wages are paid through research grants and public funding of research...and i feel i can trust their suggestions) moreover they are very professional (although sometimes their language can be a bit technical as they are not too use in dealing with the public like high street vets - they mostly deal with specialised breeders, farmers, other vets and technical personnell...but then we need to do our homework as well...to top it up, their bills usually are honest and not as ridiculous as i had to bare in more than one occasion).
hope this explains my standing on the subject and has somehow contributed to the discussion.


----------



## LostGirl

We are moving on to Skinners field and trail crunchy from 8months-18months for our two now looks very good, sadly cant afford to feed two on Arden Grange anymore due to oh losing a week worths of wages  

Looks very good tho and reviews have been great can get two 15kg bags for £33 delivered


----------



## jessejazza

dimkaz said:


> on your point A) -> food containing that huge amount of water (that you pay for) put definetly under strain the tummy of the dogs (especially a large breed that needs over a kg of wet to supply the body of the necessary nutrients)...a kg of food means at least 70-80% needs to be passed out *and this will cause inflammations given the quantity...


The point i was making is that animals feed on feed that naturally contains 70+% water. Do you have dried beef for Sunday lunch? As it contains more nutritional value you don't feed more and more is digested than a grain based complete feed.

Have you put some kibble in a bowl of water and soaked it overnight - and looked at what its swelled to.

You feed your dog what you like. I think you'd see a big difference in their vitality on natural food.


----------



## dimkaz

jessejazza said:


> Have you put some kibble in a bowl of water and soaked it overnight - and looked at what its swelled to.
> 
> You feed your dog what you like. I think you'd see a big difference in their vitality on natural food.


hi, probably due to the long papyrus i wrote, you haven't had the chance to read it thoroughly, but it appears that we are saying more or less the same things ...



nice photos you posted! when i learn how to post some i will put on my big girl tackling a fresh cow T bone steak!


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## staceydawlz

PLEASE HELP!!! looking for online supplier that is reliable and sells alpha sporting puppy can anyone help plz xx


----------



## Sarahnya

That is the most lovely Saluki cross Jess.


----------



## jessejazza

Sarahnya said:


> That is the most lovely Saluki cross Jess.


She is a beautiful looking girl [rehome] and a lovely character too [albeit a bit tinkish at times]. Great cuddler in bed. Still a nervous girl but getting better.


----------



## Liteskye

I feed my lot on a mixture of Royal Canin and raw. Sidney was getting bored of the Canin, but wasn't going to stop feeding him it, and try something else, as I did this once with one of my other dogs, and it was murder trying to get her to stick with a regular kibble.


----------



## michelle_sheppey

when we got our rottie his breeder was feedin him chicken and rice which was expensive and borin so me and my husband put him on tesco's own brand of food which he enjoys and there has been no tummy upset or anythin and also its cheap and cheerful


----------



## jessejazza

Sarahnya said:


> That is the most lovely Saluki cross Jess.


Thanks. Previous owner dumped her off at the council pound claiming she didn't like his cats - i object to the view that a dog is considered second class in the animal kingdom to cats.

Here's a few more pix in an album
http://jessejazza.110mb.com/photos/dogs/best-09/index.html


----------



## WTOnline

garryd said:


> Whats the best dry dog food out there??? any thoughts?? i am feeding my dog james wellbeloved wich is good but dear to buywhat do you feed your dog and why !?? and how much is it !?


It's interesting you ask this question. I have a shop (Welcome | www.waggintailsonline.com) and we sell Science Plan and Burns. One day a woman came to the shop and bought a bag of Burns. She was explaining to me how she tried every food out there, even Vet prescribed food and she had never tried Burns and wanted to give it a go. After a few weeks, she returned to buy another bag and was beaming with joy that her dog's skin rash had finally gone away after years of trying other foods.

I always try and tell this story regarding Burns as my clients have had really great results. I've had many clients tell me that their dog's fur has become glossier after the switch and how their dogs breath doesn't smell anymore.

I feed my dog Burn's Minibites and I can tell you he has a beautiful glossy black coat. The nice thing about Burns is that it isn't expensive.

I wouldn't say Science Plan or any other brand is a bad one or not suitable; I've just had really great feedback about Burns. I hope this helps.


----------



## nellie_dean

The previous poster said 'The nice thing about Burns is that it isn't expensive. '

I have to confess that to my way of thinking any food costing over £40 a bag is expensive. It is perfectly possible to buy a low protein/low fat food (which is basically what Burns is) for £10-£12 less than Burns which makes me think that Burns is vastly overpriced, even though I used to feed it myself in the past.

Burns works simply because it is a low protein/fat food, and therefore keeps a dog lean which is the healthy state for any dog. Most people overfeed their pets, and therefore feeding a light diet such as Burns helps ensure that not too much fat/protein is not being consumed.

There are any number of light diets out there. Check out the Pets at Home website to get an idea of what's there.

There's a lot of myth around Burns, but the truth is that it suits some dogs and not others - some end up very thin. The secret of healthy feeding is not so much the brand but the type of food being fed. As long as you are not overfeeding, and you are not feeding a lot of indigestible cheap ingredients, and you are excercising your dog regularly then you should have a healthy pet!

And to repeat, you don't have to buy expensive food to have a healthy dog!


----------



## WTOnline

nellie_dean said:


> The previous poster said 'The nice thing about Burns is that it isn't expensive. '
> 
> I have to confess that to my way of thinking any food costing over £40 a bag is expensive. It is perfectly possible to buy a low protein/low fat food (which is basically what Burns is) for £10-£12 less than Burns which makes me think that Burns is vastly overpriced, even though I used to feed it myself in the past.
> 
> Burns works simply because it is a low protein/fat food, and therefore keeps a dog lean which is the healthy state for any dog. Most people overfeed their pets, and therefore feeding a light diet such as Burns helps ensure that not too much fat/protein is not being consumed.
> 
> There are any number of light diets out there. Check out the Pets at Home website to get an idea of what's there.
> 
> There's a lot of myth around Burns, but the truth is that it suits some dogs and not others - some end up very thin. The secret of healthy feeding is not so much the brand but the type of food being fed. As long as you are not overfeeding, and you are not feeding a lot of indigestible cheap ingredients, and you are excercising your dog regularly then you should have a healthy pet!
> 
> And to repeat, you don't have to buy expensive food to have a healthy dog!


It's interesting you refer to Burns as expensive. After owning a pet shop for a number of years, I find Burns to be the cheaper brand in comparison to the market leaders - Science Plan, James wellbeloved, royal canine, etc. I have never seen a bag of Burns retaisl for £40 + and even large 15kg bags don't go for that much. Perhaps you are buying Burns at an inflated price. I for sure have never sold Burns for so much money.


----------



## Nonnie

WTOnline said:


> It's interesting you refer to Burns as expensive. After owning a pet shop for a number of years, I find Burns to be the cheaper brand in comparison to the market leaders - Science Plan, James wellbeloved, royal canine, etc. I have never seen a bag of Burns retaisl for £40 + and even large 15kg bags don't go for that much. Perhaps you are buying Burns at an inflated price. I for sure have never sold Burns for so much money.


Ive never seen Burns retail cheaper than JWB, AG and the like. It is one of the most expensive feeds on the market.

I contacted numerous pet shops when i wanted to feed it, but it was always priced at £40 a sack or over.

Perhaps you could link us to where we can obtain it at a cheaper price.


----------



## Billy&Buster

My new puppy had been fed on vitalin by the breeder, but after reading some of the advise on here all my dogs are now on JWB, and are looking alot healthier


----------



## WTOnline

Nonnie said:


> Ive never seen Burns retail cheaper than JWB, AG and the like. It is one of the most expensive feeds on the market.
> 
> I contacted numerous pet shops when i wanted to feed it, but it was always priced at £40 a sack or over.
> 
> Perhaps you could link us to where we can obtain it at a cheaper price.


What size bag are you looking for? I sell Burns; however, depending on the size and where you live, postage can cancel out your savings. My shop is www.waggintailsonline.com; however, I only post large bags of food as a special request. If you let me know what size you are after I can call Burns when I return and get a price for you.


----------



## shazza1969

WTOnline said:


> What size bag are you looking for? I sell Burns; however, depending on the size and where you live, postage can cancel out your savings. My shop is www.waggintailsonline.com; however, I only post large bags of food as a special request. If you let me know what size you are after I can call Burns when I return and get a price for you.


Got to agree with you all Burns and JWB is expensive and you end up feeding more like I said previously i've always fed mine of Oscars ok I have the top end of their range Pinnacle + because it suits my dogs which as the extra glucosamine, MSM and Chondroitin but they do other ranges and their delivery is FREE OF CHARGE and some of their food looking on their website Oscar Pet Foods UK - Nutritious quality pet foods delivered to your door start at £15:95 for 15kg bag


----------



## lemmsy

Not a massive fan of JWB- it's not bad but the only thing is it has JWB special added ingredients. 

I prefer (in no particular order)
Burns
Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice/Lamb and Rice
Whites Premium (comparable to Arden Range IMO)
CSJ


----------



## Desteb

I've got mine on Orijin. It has a higher protein content and natural ingredients. The dogs do very well on it..


----------



## bairdy144

Hi,
Have 3 dogs (labrador and 2 Vizlas). The best I've found is Vitalin Active. Comes in at £10 for 15kg bag And has minimum 30% chicken compared to 4-6% in most other brands. Dogs love it and it's cheap as chips. Also fire in some tripe or beef from daf animal feeds £9 for 20lbs. hope it helps. Had a litter of nine vizlas and there all doing great on it as well. Every dog is different so good luck


----------



## KenDoddsDadsDog

bairdy144 said:


> Hi,
> The best I've found is Vitalin Active. Comes in at £10 for 15kg bag And has minimum 30% chicken


Blimey, that's even better value than Skinners.


----------



## nat1979

bairdy144 said:


> Hi,
> Have 3 dogs (labrador and 2 Vizlas). The best I've found is Vitalin Active. Comes in at £10 for 15kg bag And has minimum 30% chicken compared to 4-6% in most other brands. Dogs love it and it's cheap as chips. Also fire in some tripe or beef from daf animal feeds £9 for 20lbs. hope it helps. Had a litter of nine vizlas and there all doing great on it as well. Every dog is different so good luck


This sounds good


----------



## hantheratbreeder

Hi hun i have just read your message and the best dry dog food to get is working wagg complete and it is £9.97 for a 17kg bag and you can get it from any asda but it works out cheaper if u buy from macro.

I know this because we have 3 boxers and a australian collie and their muscle definition is brilliant and their coats are always gleaming with or without a bath.
Also the collie has complex skin allergies and they have seemed to clear up alot since the wagg.

Hope to hear from you soon

x hantheratbreeder x


----------



## lady_r0gue

When on a tight budget in the past I have often used Super Greyhound for my (non-greyhound) dog (although now he's gettin older I give him more tins of chappie) and also my old bitch, they thrived on it - it's really high in protein, great for energy and a shiny coat, and was the cheapest dry meal I think I've ever found! Can't remember the exact price (about £9-£11 for a ginormous sack?) - although they didn't usually stock it the local pet & garden store used to order it in for me, so maybe ask your pet food supplier about it if it sounds like it'd be suitable.


----------



## nellie_dean

It's all very well extolling the virtues of 15kg bags of food for a tenner, but bear this in mind. A 20kg dog on Wagg needs around 400g a day - a 20kg dog on the food I buy needs around 200g a day. That makes your cheap food not quite as good value, in fact the equivalent of £20 a bag compared to the £25 I pay for a natural food which does not contain cheap cereals such a wheat.
Add to that the fact that a lot of that 400g is going to come out the other end because a dog cannot digest it properly, that wheat is more likely to cause intolerance problems, and they probably use chemical antioxidants and preservatives and I think you're beginning to see that there is a difference between cheap and cheerful foods and better quality ones - and it's not just price.


----------



## Bodhi

Hi, after reading through nearly all 50 odd pages of this, i thought i should definately post something!!

I have 15 month male border terrier called Bodhi, when i first got him he was on a dry kibble puppy food as recommended by the breeder, Royal Canin Junior mini, i kept him on this until he was 10-11 months old, he did great on it and i didnt want to upset him stomach and change him over onto something else.

Then i started him on James Wellbeloved Lamb and Vedgetable, he has no food intolerances at all, just thought the more natural the better so picked this thinking it was THE best...now after reading all this im not so sure. 

After a little while he got bored, so added hot water to it, then got bored again so bought aload of the JWB wet lamb n rice/ turkey n rice to mix in with it......and he loves it!!

He is super fit...gets about 2 hours walks a day, so SO well behaved its pretty bloody amazing actually and we love him to bits.

After reading all this though, and despite him loving it, I am now wondering if there are any even better wet foods to mix in with the JWB dry?? Like the Nature Diet brand.

...but to be honest, unless your giving him a bowl full of Evian to go with it, you'll never have complete control of what goes in!!! 

Plus all this worrying about his food is probably whats giving your dog the shits anyway :001_tt2:


----------



## slakey

What's the best cheapest food I can buy?

I'm currently spending £25 on Zeus' 15KG bags of Bakers Complete and £13 on Milo's 6kg bags of Bakers Puppy..

Yes I know Bakers are not looked at greatly on here, so I turn to you for some help.

Also my local vet says since Milo is the working type of Labrador I don't have to pay VAT on his food?

So erm... would telling you their size be any use?

Zeus is 3 years old and weighs in the region of 4-5stone.
Milo is 4months old and weighs 2stone 13lbs.

Zeus is a boxer cross, and Milo is a pure Labrador, if that helps?

So please, tell me the best cheap food that I can get.

Has anyone tried Wainwright's dry dog food?


----------



## nellie_dean

Hi
Yes, I have fed Wainwrights and it's a good food. What I like about Pets at Home is that you can get lots of information about the foods that they sell on their website, unlike some who seem to make it difficult! At least then you can make informed choices. PAH are also quite cheap to buy online - I think they have a free delivery option on orders over £29 which is excellent.


----------



## slakey

Is Purina Beta any good?

-------------------------------------------------------------

*Beta Adult*
*
Ingredients:*

Cereals (Min. 4% Wholegrain, Min. 4% Rice), Meat and Animal Derivatives (Min. 14% Meats, Min. 4% Chicken), Vegetable Protein Extracts, Oils and Fats, Derivatives of Vegetable Origin (Min. 0.5% Beet Pulp), Minerals, Vegetables (Min. 0.5% Chicory).

*Beta Puppy
*
*
Ingredients:*

Cereals (Min. 4% Rice), Meat and Animal Derivatives (Min. 4% Lamb), Derivatives of Vegetable Origin (Min. 0.5% Beet Pulp), Vegetable Protein Extracts, Oils and Fats, Minerals, Vegetables (Min 0.5% Chicory).

-------------------------------------------------------------

Also what is the best wet food? At the minute I'm giving Zeus half a can of Butchers a day. Is Butchers any good?

I have no idea what to look out for in the dry and wet food, could someone say what I should look for please?


----------



## Kinski

Beta is a terrible food it's full of rubbish, I've no idea what's in Butchers so can't comment on it.

Terri


----------



## slakey

*Butchers Tripe Mix:* Meat and Animal Derivatives (Tripe Min. 26%), Derviatives of Vegetable Origin, Minerals.
*
Butchers Tripe and Beef:* Meat and Animal Derivatives (Tripe Min. 15%, Beef Min. 10%), Derviatives of Vegetable Origin, Minerals. 
*
Butchers Chicken, Ham and Rice:* Meat and Animal Derivatives (Chicken Min. 14%, Ham Min. 4%), Rice (Min. 4%), Oils and Fats, Derviatives of Vegetable Origin, Minerals.
*
Butchers Lamb, Rice and Peas:* Meat and Animal Derivatives (Lamb Min. 4%), Rice (Min. 4%), Peas (Min. 4%), Oils and Fats, Derviatives of Vegetable Origin, Minerals.

Many more flaviours but that gives you the jist of it.


----------



## Kinski

It's not a food I would feed but I'm a fussy git when it comes to feeding my dogs, I might feed it to my oh but not my dogs. Derivatives are what's left of an animal once humans have finished with it, it's skin, fur, beaks, claws any old crap that's left over, it will be the same with the veg. 
I've said a few times in this thread but I feed my pair on Orijen, it's a more expensive food to buy initially but it works out cheaper in the long run as you don't need to feed as much of it as you do lower quality foods, my pair ( shelties ) cost me £2.50 a week to feed.

Terri


----------



## slakey

I may totally change to Wainwright then... Since they do both Dry and Wet.


----------



## Jacinth

What about the Barking Head range? They seem to contain a higher meat content than most. I've not tried it on my puppy, just wondered if anyone had.


----------



## slakey

PetsAtHome Own Brand anyone?

------------------------------------
*
Ingredients:*

Fresh Lamb and Chicken (Min. 24%) (Chicken Min. 15%, Lamb Min. 9%), Rice, Lamb Meat Meal, Barley, Maize, Maize Gluten Meal, Animal Fat, Poultry Meat Meal, Flaxseed, Fish Meal, Sugar Beet Pulp, Poultry Digest, Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Methionine, Marigold Extract, Yucca Extract, Rosemary Extract. With Antioxidant EC Additives (Vitamin E and C). Total Lamb Min. 20%.

------------------------------------

Now to me that seems good ingredients, but can anyone point out the bad stuff if there is any?


----------



## jessejazza

slakey said:


> Also what is the best wet food? At the minute I'm giving Zeus half a can of Butchers a day. Is Butchers any good?


I have tried feeding canned meat with biscuit. When my greyhound couldn't cope with dry complete anymore i tried her on Chappie, Pedigree and Butchers. None of these i found kept weight at the rear end. I don't think canned dog food is what it was in the 70's and 80's which is what everyone fed their dogs then. I found the same thing when i had a 2 yr Saluki-Collie - however much i fed she'd lose weight at the rear. Why? - i don't know. My whippet-bedi cross does well on Pedigree. I switched to plain pet mince from the local butchers - i know what it is - the human meat that isn't used i.e. scrapings from carcasses, lights - all good meat but not used for human purchase in the shop.

As for animal derivatives... it is unfair to comment! I don't think it is claws etc but as manufacturers won't come clean and say what it is i'd ratehr not bother. Butchers do claim 50% meat content in their tins which is higher than others. I don't trust any of them i'm afraid.

I am thinking of putting my whippet-bedi on dry complete as it is supposed to be better for the teeth as he won't touch bones.

So best wet food was the question... see what pet mince your local butcher can offer - i pay 20p for 2 to 3.5 lbs bag (he doesn't bother weighing).


----------



## slakey

jessejazza said:


> I have tried feeding canned meat with biscuit. When my greyhound couldn't cope with dry complete anymore i tried her on Chappie, Pedigree and Butchers. None of these i found kept weight at the rear end. I don't think canned dog food is what it was in the 70's and 80's which is what everyone fed their dogs then. I found the same thing when i had a 2 yr Saluki-Collie - however much i fed she'd lose weight at the rear. Why? - i don't know. My whippet-bedi cross does well on Pedigree. I switched to plain pet mince from the local butchers - i know what it is - the human meat that isn't used i.e. scrapings from carcasses, lights - all good meat but not used for human purchase in the shop.
> 
> As for animal derivatives... it is unfair to comment! I don't think it is claws etc but as manufacturers won't come clean and say what it is i'd ratehr not bother. Butchers do claim 50% meat content in their tins which is higher than others. I don't trust any of them i'm afraid.
> 
> I am thinking of putting my whippet-bedi on dry complete as it is supposed to be better for the teeth as he won't touch bones.
> 
> So best wet food was the question... see what pet mince your local butcher can offer - i pay 20p for 2 to 3.5 lbs bag (he doesn't bother weighing).


Thanks for that post. Zeus weighs plenty, and I'm happy with his weight, I was just wondering if they were bad in general, not because he isn't putting on weight. He weighs either 4.5 stone or 5 stone.

But if I'm going to change to something better dry and wet I might aswell start now, as I want to be feeding my boys the same food when Milo is older.


----------



## dawn74

Hi 
I feed my 22 week border collie puppy and my 13 year old BC Trophy. It has absolutely no crap in it at all it is all natural and you can get a wheat and gluten fre version as well as plenty of different flavours and uses. I use Trophy special as it has glucosomine and chondritin in for my older dog. it is about £24 for a 15kg sack, but it contains at least 60% meat and no derivatives at all. My older dog is a bit fussy about biscuit but she loves this, they also do a kibble version too. Trophy Pet Foods


----------



## Bodhi

Well i have now put Bodhi on Nature Diet (rabbit) mixed in with JWB lamb n veg dry, that cant be too bad!!! looks loverly...my girlfriend thinks we should pop it in an oven dish and put some pastry on top for a nice rabbit pie!!!


----------



## slakey

I've found a site that are doing Arden Grange sor cheaper then usual, quick question how long does dry dog food keep?


----------



## nellie_dean

dawn74 said:


> Hi
> ... I use Trophy special as it has glucosomine and chondritin in for my older dog. it is about £24 for a 15kg sack, but it contains at least 60% meat and no derivatives at all..... Trophy Pet Foods


Not sure where you got your inof from! Trophy Special (according to their website) contains 12% chicken and 8% lamb - not sure how you get that to equal 60% meat :¬P
It's also wheat based, has added sugar and the usual BHA, BHT antioxidants which some have linked to cancer. Actually, at £24 it seems expensive considering the ingredients.


----------



## dawn74

MMMMM thats what the lady told me. I know it depends on what flavour you get. I have to say though it hs been great for my two but concerned about what you are saying, are you a nutritionalist? Should i change and have i been spun a tale? Thank you


----------



## jessejazza

Anyone tried Chudleys - i'm considering their Chunks variety as its larger kibble is supposed to help clean teeth.


----------



## lady_r0gue

My boy's on a special diet of James Senior Light (though am a bit confused about the carb content - 51% rice & oats) - he gets about 200g per day in small portions and half a tin of Chappie (I swear by it... I think its best tinned dog food out there) and sometimes steamed carrots mixed in and the odd raw bone. He's looking great!

Found this...

Butchers Tripe - Review - PERSONALLY, I'D RATHER EAT A DEAD BUTCHER


----------



## Bodhi

he hates the nature diet stuff, will not touch it so back to jwb wet n jwb lamb n vedge cereal free dry ; )


----------



## icanneverthinkofagoodname

Che: has Dr Johns Silver, 

Buster: The lady who i get his dog food from has stopped doing it so now am stuck, i'm using up the last of it now and have to find another food for him. He was allergic to Chicken, but have been mixing in the Dr Johns Silver with the lOHP Robbies and he seems to like it! no signs of allergy.

:cursing:


----------



## BeesBella

I feed my dog on mainly a BARF diet but I understand it can be quite time consuming, when we are short on time we usually feed him Burns, it costs about £7 for 2kg. Best thing is, unlike things like Science Plan and Pedegree, it's not tested on animals =)
You can buy it online, I'm not sure where my mum gets it from but I know a lot of shops sell it =)


----------



## Kinski

icanneverthinkofagoodname said:


> Che: has Dr Johns Silver,
> 
> Buster: The lady who i get his dog food from has stopped doing it so now am stuck, i'm using up the last of it now and have to find another food for him. He was allergic to Chicken, but have been mixing in the Dr Johns Silver with the lOHP Robbies and he seems to like it! no signs of allergy.
> 
> :cursing:


Dr. Johns is one of the worst foods on the market it really is full of rubbish, you should be thanking the lady for not getting it in any more.
Has anyone tried the new food from Orijen ( Orijen Red ) I got it for my two a few weeks ago and they love it.

Terri


----------



## icanneverthinkofagoodname

Kinski said:


> Dr. Johns is one of the worst foods on the market it really is full of rubbish, you should be thanking the lady for not getting it in any more.
> Has anyone tried the new food from Orijen ( Orijen Red ) I got it for my two a few weeks ago and they love it.
> 
> Terri


Dr Johns is recommended for Shar Peis by Paul Saxton at the Shar Pei Rescue of Great Britain, it has the right amount of everything.

The lady i get the Robbies from is starting to do a new food, so am going up to see her to get a sample, but if it's the same as Robbies i wont be buying- Buster gained no weight due to the content.


----------



## Kinski

icanneverthinkofagoodname said:


> Dr Johns is recommended for Shar Peis by Paul Saxton at the Shar Pei Rescue of Great Britain, it has the right amount of everything.


Honestly it really is one of the worst foods out there.
The first ingredient is cereals, that will be the cheapest one on the market at the time they are buying, so the cereal content will change regularly.
meat and animal derivatives, derivatives are all the crap that's left over after the carcass has been stripped of meat, it's beaks, claws, skin, hooves, anything that's left of the animal gets chucked in pet food.
eec permitted antioxidants could be BHA and BHT both of which some experts believe can cause cancers.
I used to feed my last sheltie girl Robbies and she did really well on it.

Terri


----------



## nellie_dean

Kinski said:


> derivatives are all the crap that's left over after the carcass has been stripped of meat, it's beaks, claws, skin, hooves, anything that's left of the animal gets chucked in pet food.
> Terri


I know what you mean, but animal derivatives, though not terrifically high quality protein are regulated by law. If you think about it, in the wild an animal (certainly my cat!) will generally eat 99% of what they kill, and that includes some of what we might think of as the less desirable cuts of meat!

As I see it, ingredients such as this fulfill two purposes. 1) they ensure efficient use of the food chain, in that because we are fussy about what we eat there's going to be a lot left from the slaughtering process, and if this can be a food source rather than dumped in landfill that is basically good, and green!
2) It's a cheap source of protein for those who can't afford posh nosh for their pets. It's the pet equivalent of us buying Tesco Saverburgers rather than 100% Aberdeen Angus Quarter Pounders!

I use a pet food where I know what's in it protein-wise, and choose one without the artificial antioxidants (in my case Whites Premium) but it is a bit more expensive than Dr Johns, and if I was strapped for cash I might have to go down that route!


----------



## Kinski

nellie_dean said:


> I know what you mean, but animal derivatives, though not terrifically high quality protein are regulated by law. If you think about it, in the wild an animal (certainly my cat!) will generally eat 99% of what they kill, and that includes some of what we might think of as the less desirable cuts of meat!


That they will but they will also eat the meat, something that a lot of the poorer dog foods don't have in them. I've not had a cat for years but when they did catch something they tended to leave the head and the limbs and only eat the body .

Terri


----------



## icanneverthinkofagoodname

Kinski said:


> Honestly it really is one of the worst foods out there.
> The first ingredient is cereals, that will be the cheapest one on the market at the time they are buying, so the cereal content will change regularly.
> meat and animal derivatives, derivatives are all the crap that's left over after the carcass has been stripped of meat, it's beaks, claws, skin, hooves, anything that's left of the animal gets chucked in pet food.
> eec permitted antioxidants could be BHA and BHT both of which some experts believe can cause cancers.
> I used to feed my last sheltie girl Robbies and she did really well on it.
> 
> Terri


It might be awful but....

The difficulty i have is that i have multi allergic Peis. It might be bad food but its about the only food i can buy (apart from Robbies and Luaths) that doesnt make my dogs face and chest go purple and swell up.

As much as i love my dogs once they are gone i won't be getting another Shar Pei. They are so much hard work in the food department.


----------



## slakey

*Autarky Adult:*

*Ingredients:* Maize, chicken meat meal, rice, chicken fat, green vegetables, carrots, whole linseed, prairie meal, yeast, herbs, spices, seaweed, yucca extract, with EC permitted antioxidants: mixed tocopherols, vitamin C and rosemary extract.
*
Nutrient Analysis:* Protein: 22% Fibre: 3% Oil: 12% Ash: 6.5% Vitamin A 15000 iu/kg Vitamin D 1500 iu/kg Vitamin E 150 mg/kg

*Autarky Puppy/Junior:*

*Ingredients:* Maize, chicken meat meal, rice, chicken fat, green vegetables, carrots, whole linseed, prairie meal, yeast, herbs, spices, seaweed, yucca extract, with EC permitted antioxidants: mixed tocopherols, vitamin C and rosemary extract.
*
Nutrient Analysis:* Protein: 28% Fibre: 3% Oil: 17% Ash: 8% Vitamin A 15000 iu/kg Vitamin D 1500 iu/kg Vitamin E 150 mg/kg

Are those any good?

I was planning to put the boys on Arden Grange, but long plan wise it wouldn't be suitable as they're on offer now, but I don't know how long for, so I'm shopping around atm.


----------



## james1

in the puppy one: maize is top and fat is 4th on the list, it doesnt look so hot to me, the majority of the protein will be coming from the maize which is hard if not impossible to digest for dogs


----------



## slakey

Well if I can't find anything else I'll be getting Skinners I think. So it'd be £30/month I hope lol.

Unless there's something just as good for cheaper?


----------



## jessejazza

james1 said:


> in the puppy one: maize is top and fat is 4th on the list, it doesnt look so hot to me, the majority of the protein will be coming from the maize which is hard if not impossible to digest for dogs


I'd imagine maize is hard to digest but why have Chappie tinned managed to claim it is one of the most easily digestible. I'm suspicious now of any commercial foods.

Skinners; i have some time for as i've bought from the factory and hopefully shortly will arrange a tour round - but then i live locally.


----------



## Fremlin

It's probably been mentioned before but this site was very useful to me when I was deciding what pet food to feed my two

Dog Food Reviews


----------



## slakey

Fremlin said:


> It's probably been mentioned before but this site was very useful to me when I was deciding what pet food to feed my two
> 
> Dog Food Reviews


Alot of the food on there is American though, and the prices alone to buy it are high and that's without P+P *IF* they deliver to the UK.

I'm currently writing down my monthly expense :/

I'm wondering whether or not to start changing the boys food over now or next month :/

So far I've got down a 3kg bag of Beta for Milo and a 3kg bag of Bakers for Zeus.

I'm looking at possibly getting Wainwrights Dry Dog Food, and I'm kinda unsure if 2kg would be enough to transfer the boys to it or not, but then I don't wanna buy a big bag to find out that they don't like it 

Also what size would I need to Zeus, large breed or the medium size? He weighs 28kgs at 3 years old and is a Boxer cross.

Also should I get the large breed for Milo? He weighs 21kgs at 4 months old and is a Labrador.

Thanks for any help


----------



## Fremlin

slakey said:


> Also should I get the large breed for Milo? He weighs 21 stone at 4 months old and is a Labrador.


... a 21 stone lab. Holy cow!!!


----------



## slakey

Sorry meant 21kgs lol. Still rather big for his age, and he isn't fat


----------



## nessie3

I feed my westies Organipets, does anyone else use this/or know about it?


----------



## slakey

nessie3 said:


> I feed my westies Organipets, does anyone else use this/or know about it?


I've never heard of it.

I think I may ask my vet which food is best for my boys.

If I can get this job then I should be able to buy them anything, just atm it's a bit tight.

Oh I've noticed that Milo's stools are abit squidy and a tad runny, not really runny just a little bit. I'm currently feeding him Beta Puppy, which he was fed on as he was growing up at his breeders house, he does sneak into Zeus' bowl *Bakers Adult* and the cat and kittens bowls, so maybe it's just that?

But if not what is a better brand then Beta, but not with a stupid price of £30-£40?


----------



## Nonnie

slakey said:


> I think I may ask my vet which food is best for my boys.


Please dont. Vet's know nothing about feeding and nutrition, unless they have been on some course and done extra training, and even then there knowledge is a tad dubious. They will just push whatever one they make £££ out of.

Tbh, you could feed any of the cheap brands if thats all you can afford. Some of the vitalin range looks good, and is reasonably priced. ANYTHING is better than Bakers.


----------



## Guest

slakey said:


> I've never heard of it.
> 
> I think I may ask my vet which food is best for my boys.
> 
> If I can get this job then I should be able to buy them anything, just atm it's a bit tight.
> 
> Oh I've noticed that Milo's stools are abit squidy and a tad runny, not really runny just a little bit. I'm currently feeding him Beta Puppy, which he was fed on as he was growing up at his breeders house, he does sneak into Zeus' bowl *Bakers Adult* and the cat and kittens bowls, so maybe it's just that?
> 
> But if not what is a better brand then Beta, but not with a stupid price of £30-£40?


A price range of £30-40 is not a stupid one - you get what you pay for...
Not only that but some more expensive food may not be that much more pricey when you calculate how much your dog actually needs of it - a dog will need a lesser quantity of better quality food thus bringing the cost down a little over time.
Bakers is crap so yes almost anything is better than Bakers.
I feed my boy Orijen - Im not sure about the weekly cost yet (yet to finish the first big bag and plus now I have a another dog  but it wont be more than £4 a week max (SBT, 20kgs).
For cheaper foods look maybe at Arden Grange, JWB, Wrainwright... check the meat is listed first, the meat content is high enough, the quality is decent and the cereals are, as much as possible, limited in amount (better without it actually).
oh and some working dog food maybe good value as well!


----------



## Guest

Fremlin said:


> It's probably been mentioned before but this site was very useful to me when I was deciding what pet food to feed my two
> 
> Dog Food Reviews


Yes Ive mentioned it before - I found it really useful too to understand how to read dog food labels; what to look out for, what to avoid, their detailed reviews are very helpful and make sense to me  it complements a book on dog nutrition I got months ago!

xx


----------



## Nonnie

Skinners isnt too bad for its price. First ingredient is rice, but i dont think you are going to find a great food at the price you wish to pay. I know many dogs do well on this one..

Skinners Petfoods - Field & Trial Duck & Rice Hypoallergenic Dog Food

Arden Grange is another good one. You can buy either 30kg with free delivery on eBay for around £50 (free delivery and you'd have to do a search). Or you can get it from Berriewoods for £26 pounds.

Berriewood Wholesale - Arden Grange Adult Lamb & Rice 15kg(Breeder Bag)

I think Bakers is stupid expensive for the quality. I remember when it was about £12.50 a sack.


----------



## nessie3

This is from the Organipets website, does it sound ok?


Complete Organic Dry Adult Dog Food ingredients - Organic fresh chicken (min 22%), organic whole rice (min 19%), chicken meal, prairie meal, organic oats, organic barley, organic peas, organic skimmed milk, maize protein, organic sunflower oil, chicken oil, whole linseed, seaweed meal, vegetable pomace, salmon oil, organic herbs (including oregano, rosemary, sage and thyme). With Natural antioxidant Vitamin E (Tocopherol-rich extracts of natural origin). 

Analysis - Protein 28%, Oil 11%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 6%, Copper (as copper sulphate) 20mg/kg.

Vitamin Statement - Vitamin A 20,000IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1,250 IU/kg, Vitamin E (as alpha tocopherol acetate) 100mg/kg


----------



## slakey

I'm also looking at this CSJ Dog Food, which seems rather good. And as I've said before my vet that has 3 working labs, suggested Supadog to me for Milo.

Also with the Skinners Field & Trial would I need to feed more of it to the boys? My mum said I might as it may have missing ingredients so you need to feed bigger quantities. I've also looked at the non F&T range of Skinners food as well, that seems to be good.

I consider £30-£40 a stupid price for dog food, as Eukanuba, Royal Canin are in those price ranges and have bad ingredients in them. Zeus alone for a 15KG bag of bakers costs £25/month, so if I can find better then Bakers for lower, same price or upto £30 then I'll deffinately get it, once I've tried them on the samples to see if they're stomachs can take it or not.


----------



## Nonnie

slakey said:


> Also with the Skinners Field & Trial would I need to feed more of it to the boys? My mum said I might as it may have missing ingredients so you need to feed bigger quantities. I've also looked at the non F&T range of Skinners food as well, that seems to be good.


If a food is missing ingredients, feeding more isnt going to make them magically appear


----------



## KenDoddsDadsDog

slakey said:


> My mum said I might as it may have missing ingredients


Skinners is a Complete dry food. Surely if it's "complete" then it won't have missing ingredients.

We feed Skinners Duck & Rice, and it's 100g of food per 8Kg of dog, per day.
So we feed Honey 200g for brekkie, and 200g again at dinner time. Mixed with a bit of water for gravy


----------



## Guest

nessie3 said:


> This is from the Organipets website, does it sound ok?
> 
> Complete Organic Dry Adult Dog Food ingredients - Organic fresh chicken (min 22%), organic whole rice (min 19%), chicken meal, prairie meal, organic oats, organic barley, organic peas, organic skimmed milk, maize protein, organic sunflower oil, chicken oil, whole linseed, seaweed meal, vegetable pomace, salmon oil, organic herbs (including oregano, rosemary, sage and thyme). With Natural antioxidant Vitamin E (Tocopherol-rich extracts of natural origin).
> 
> Analysis - Protein 28%, Oil 11%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 6%, Copper (as copper sulphate) 20mg/kg.
> 
> Vitamin Statement - Vitamin A 20,000IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1,250 IU/kg, Vitamin E (as alpha tocopherol acetate) 100mg/kg


thats sounds quite oki yeah!
Id rather more meat and no cereals but if you're gonna have cereals better be oats and better be organic then for instance wheat...
sounds like a decent dog food to me, nothing ringing alarm bells...


----------



## Guest

slakey said:


> I
> 
> I consider £30-£40 a stupid price for dog food, as Eukanuba, Royal Canin are in those price ranges and have bad ingredients in them. Zeus alone for a 15KG bag of bakers costs £25/month, so if I can find better then Bakers for lower, same price or upto £30 then I'll deffinately get it, once I've tried them on the samples to see if they're stomachs can take it or not.


Price is definitively not always directly related to quality; Royal Canin, Pedigree even and others are quite pricey and still quite crap...
But on the other hand good quality ingredients will to some extent always cost more than crap ingredients and fillers so for instance JWB, Arden Grange and my all time favorite Orijen will cost more than other cheaper, in all the sense of the terms, food - although the actual feeding cost may not be as much more as it may at first seem...


----------



## jessejazza

Oblada said:


> Price is definitively not always directly related to quality; Royal Canin, Pedigree even and others are quite pricey and still quite crap...
> But on the other hand good quality ingredients will to some extent always cost more than crap ingredients and fillers so for instance JWB, Arden Grange and my all time favorite Orijen will cost more than other cheaper, in all the sense of the terms, food - although the actual feeding cost may not be as much more as it may at first seem...


I'd agree with you there. Price depends very much on whether the makers have their own factory. The big names Pedigree, Royal Canin, Eukanuba, are owned by large concerns who i think use one factory. Skinners definitely do and i'm hoping to visit them shortly for a factory tour so i'll report back if folk are interested.


----------



## Sarahnya

Hi guys, just doing a bit of hijacking.

We are about to make another addition to the family (dog family that is) which may put a little financial strain on us if I'm to continue buying just Orijen.

Whats the next best food available on the UK market, "best" being defined as high in meat, low in grain/filler/colourings etc as I'm thinking of mixing it with the Orijen.

Also ordered a boat load of Natures Diet to add as a supplement, I can't bulk buy raw because I don't have room for a chest freezer.


----------



## Guest

Sarahnya said:


> Hi guys, just doing a bit of hijacking.
> 
> We are about to make another addition to the family (dog family that is) which may put a little financial strain on us if I'm to continue buying just Orijen.
> 
> What's the next best food available on the UK market, "best" being defined as high in meat, low in grain/filler/colourings etc as I'm thinking of mixing it with the Orijen.
> 
> Also ordered a boat load of Natures Diet to add as a supplement, I can't bulk buy raw because I don't have room for a chest freezer.


Id say JWB cereals free.. its the only other cereals free food on the UK market as far as I know ... although not sure about the mixing it as each food is complete it may be a bit tricky mixing two together...
Orijen is really great food though and personally even though I got another dog now id rather stick to it


----------



## oldDoubletrouble

nessie3 said:


> This is from the Organipets website, does it sound ok?
> 
> Complete Organic Dry Adult Dog Food ingredients - Organic fresh chicken (min 22%), organic whole rice (min 19%), chicken meal, prairie meal, organic oats, organic barley, organic peas, organic skimmed milk, maize protein, organic sunflower oil, chicken oil, whole linseed, seaweed meal, vegetable pomace, salmon oil, organic herbs (including oregano, rosemary, sage and thyme). With Natural antioxidant Vitamin E (Tocopherol-rich extracts of natural origin).
> 
> Analysis - Protein 28%, Oil 11%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 6%, Copper (as copper sulphate) 20mg/kg.
> 
> Vitamin Statement - Vitamin A 20,000IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1,250 IU/kg, Vitamin E (as alpha tocopherol acetate) 100mg/kg


I always try to avoid animal deviratries of which I see none listed, Meat suitable for human comsumption is always important to me too.
The maize always throws me! assuming that maize protien is the same as maize i'e corn, as some dogs do suffer intoerancy to grain
DT


----------



## hazyreality

We feed Supadog Sensitive, after having him on all different ones, we have finally found one that doesnt upset his tummy on a regular basis. He has Natures Diet mixed in with it because he doesnt like bikkies on their own very much! Typical GSD? Decent price and for Sabre, a decent food!

*Heidi*


----------



## oldDoubletrouble

JWB has noticably gone down hill since being taken over by mars. Many owners report lose stools and much more active bowel movement then with many other the other equally priced foods.


----------



## slakey

*CSJ Natural That'll Do!*

*Ingredients:*

Chicken Meat Meal, Wheat, Rice, Chicken Fat, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Wheat Feed, Full Fat Linseed, Prairie Meal, Yeast, EC permitted natural anti-oxidants, Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin C and Rosemary Extract.

*Typical Analysis:*

Protein 21%
Oil 12%
Fibre 2.5%
Ash 8.5%

Vitamin A 12,000iu/kg
Vitamin D3 1,200iu/kg
Vitamin E 125iu/kg
Copper (as Copper Sulphate) 15mg/kg

Any good?


----------



## Dorastar

Havent tried that'll do but use CSJ Herbie rings and am really pleased with it, it smells really good and even my fussy one will eat it and comes out the other end well too


----------



## slakey

Just seems rather good prices and I'm just checking on ingredients with everyone. 
Zeus is being fed Bakers Complete, and Milo is on Purina Beta Puppy. Hopefully CSJ food is alot better then those two


----------



## Dorastar

slakey said:


> Just seems rather good prices and I'm just checking on ingredients with everyone.
> Zeus is being fed Bakers Complete, and Milo is on Purina Beta Puppy. Hopefully CSJ food is alot better then those two


Sorry but anything is better than Bakers Complete, as you can probably tell im not a fan, to much colouring for my liking. I always used to rear puppies on Beta Puppy but changed to CSJ CP27 for the last litter and they did really well on it, so will use it again when need to.


----------



## Snoringbear

slakey said:


> *CSJ Natural That'll Do!*
> 
> *Ingredients:*
> 
> Chicken Meat Meal, Wheat, Rice, Chicken Fat, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Wheat Feed, Full Fat Linseed, Prairie Meal, Yeast, EC permitted natural anti-oxidants, Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin C and Rosemary Extract.
> 
> *Typical Analysis:*
> 
> Protein 21%
> Oil 12%
> Fibre 2.5%
> Ash 8.5%
> 
> Vitamin A 12,000iu/kg
> Vitamin D3 1,200iu/kg
> Vitamin E 125iu/kg
> Copper (as Copper Sulphate) 15mg/kg
> 
> Any good?


It's better than either that you are feeding, but perhaps not totally ideal.


----------



## slakey

There are alot more other types of food by them, all with different ingredients


----------



## Snoringbear

They're reviewed here:

Dog Food Reviews - All Products - Powered by ReviewPost

The CP21 asalmon got 3 stars which is better than the two stars that royal canin gets


----------



## bengy boy

I give my Bengal Purina and he loves it!


----------



## madlab

Just started using Antos Lamb & Rice, switched from James Wellbeloved. My pooch loves their snacks too and seems good value at £30 direct. Any thoughts?

Ingredients: Rice (min 26%), Lamb Meat Meal (min 26%), Barley, Poultry Fat, Beet Pulp, Brewers Yeast, Yucca Extract, Minerals and Vitamins.

Typical analysis: Protein 22%, Oil 8%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 8.5%, Vitamin A 10,000 iu/kg, Vitamin D3 1,500 iu/kg, Vitamin E (Alpha-Tocopherols) 80 iu/kg, Copper (as Cupric sulphate) 16mg/kg, Full Complement of B-Vitamins and Trace Minerals.


----------



## mbull22

I've been told that the word 'Beta' actually gives something away, but I can't find any evidence.

Our pup has what can only be described as 'mad half hours'. We've been advised that it may be down to the huge sugar content in her Beta food giving her a sugar rush.


----------



## sequeena

mbull22 said:


> I've been told that the word 'Beta' actually gives something away, but I can't find any evidence.
> 
> Our pup has what can only be described as 'mad half hours'. We've been advised that it may be down to the huge sugar content in her Beta food giving her a sugar rush.


My pup came with a sack of Beta puppy - she didn't look like she really enjoyed it to be honest!

Did notice she was very hyper with it though.


----------



## Fremlin

Anyone had any experience with Applaws dry food?


----------



## lifeizsweet

anyone ever heard of Gusto? got a free bag the other day, Bramble loves it! Not sure if it's any good, but to find a food he eats is amazing!


----------



## lifeizsweet

mbull22 said:


> I've been told that the word 'Beta' actually gives something away, but I can't find any evidence.
> 
> Our pup has what can only be described as 'mad half hours'. We've been advised that it may be down to the huge sugar content in her Beta food giving her a sugar rush.


Bramble has a mad 15 minutes every couple of hours, doesn't matter whether he's been fed bakers or nature diet, he's the same.


----------



## slakey

lifeizsweet - post up the ingredients and the typical analysis, some people will be able to tell you if it's good or not.


----------



## lifeizsweet

slakey said:


> lifeizsweet - post up the ingredients and the typical analysis, some people will be able to tell you if it's good or not.


will do! it's a working dog food i think vat free...


----------



## popsy

The absolute tip top best is Lily's Kitchen - Organic Chicken and Vegetable Bake. Formulated by both holistic and conventional vets. It's really good stuff, pricey though... but my dog is so much better since he's been on it and he shines like a mirror. I use their wet food for my cats, which is also amazing.


----------



## Nonnie

popsy said:


> The absolute tip top best is Lily's Kitchen - Organic Chicken and Vegetable Bake. Formulated by both holistic and conventional vets. It's really good stuff, pricey though... but my dog is so much better since he's been on it and he shines like a mirror. I use their wet food for my cats, which is also amazing.




£84 for a 15kg sack!!

Lily's Kitchen • Organic Pet Food, Holistic Pet Care - Certified Holistic Pet Food • Organic dog food recipes • Organic cat food recipes • Lily's Kitchen are ethical producers of organic, holistic, pet foods providing optimum nutr

Maybe if i had a tiny TINY dog, but thats way too expensive for most pet owners. I wonder how much business they do.


----------



## crazybones

is this stuff better then Orijen??????? it wants to be for the price


----------



## Nonnie

crazybones said:


> is this stuff better then Orijen??????? it wants to be for the price


Ingredients wise i dont think so.

Lily's Kitchen Dry...


> Fresh Organic Free Range Chicken 26%, Organic Rice, Organic Oats, Organic Barley, Organic Brown Lentils, Organic Whole Flaxseed, Organic Whole Sunflower Seeds, Organic Broccoli, Organic Carrot, Organic Parsnip, Organic Peas, Organic Spinach and Organic Curly Kale. Organic Honey, Organic Herbs: Golden Rod, Kelp,
> Cleavers, Nettles, Rosehips, Aniseed,
> Marigold Petals, Milk Thistle, Dandelion
> Root, Burdock Root, Omega 3 and 6.
> Essential Minerals and Vitamins including:
> Vitamin A 11, 250 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1,688 IU/kg,
> Vitamin E 95 IU/kg, Copper Sulphate 15mg/kg.


Orijen..


> Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.


Orijen is 70% meat, Lily's Kitchen is just 26%


----------



## crazybones

thanks for that post nonnie.... so why is it so much???? so orijen is still number one then


----------



## Nonnie

crazybones said:


> thanks for that post nonnie.... so why is it so much???? so orijen is still number one then


I imagine the whole holistic/organic thing is jusification for such high costs.

No way would i pay that much. Not when it contains so little real meat.


----------



## chestersmum

Hi

There seems to be wealth of knowledge (which i don't have) on here about dry/complete food. Would anyone mind casting their eye over these ingredients from the food I feed Chester from Europa. He is a fussy eater and I have tried hills, royal canin, natures menu and a few others. Just wanted your opinions if you think its any good.

He is on Europa Lite:-
Rice 40%
maize 18%
sugar beet
poultry meal
chicken fat
brewers yeast
linseed
sunflower oil
seaweed meal
vitamins & minerals
yucca extract

Protein 15%
Oil 6%
Fibre 3.5%
Ash 7.5%
Moisture 9%

He gets fed 185 grans per day split into 2 meals.
I would appreciate any replies

Nikki
x


----------



## slakey

15% Protein seems low to me, but I'm not one of the wise ones.

What breed is he? *unsure if certain breeds need a certain amount of protein or not*


----------



## Kinski

chestersmum said:


> He is on Europa Lite:-
> Rice 40%
> maize 18%
> sugar beet
> poultry meal
> chicken fat
> brewers yeast
> linseed
> sunflower oil
> seaweed meal
> vitamins & minerals
> yucca extract
> 
> Protein 15%
> Oil 6%
> Fibre 3.5%
> Ash 7.5%
> Moisture 9%
> 
> He gets fed 185 grans per day split into 2 meals.
> I would appreciate any replies
> 
> Nikki
> x


Sorry but I wouldn't be feeding my dogs on it, at least 58% of it is grains which dogs don't need, they are only in food as a cheap filler.

I've just looked at the Europa site, is it really £ 36.25 for a 15kg bag hmy:, that's an awful lot of money for what it is.

Terri


----------



## chestersmum

Hi 

thanks for your replies, he is a neutured miniature schanuzer. The vets nurse said he is slightly (about 1 kilo) over weight so recommended i use a "light" food to get some weight off and then to maintain his weight.

Looks like I have been taken in by them being part of the "real food for pets campaign" . Once the bags are finished I might change but the thing is I have tried so many its difficult to find one that he likes!

As I said before I have tried so many and this one he has had for about 2 months now and does seem to enjoy it

Nikki


----------



## popsy

Nonnie said:


> Ingredients wise i dont think so.
> 
> Lily's Kitchen Dry...
> 
> Orijen..
> 
> Orijen is 70% meat, Lily's Kitchen is just 26%


Yes - but Lily's is fresh organic MEAT and orijen is meat MEAL - which is dried carcass and skin and any other leftovers ground into a powder, which is not digestible to dogs and full of very unsavoury stuff. Lil'ys is also organic - which means no additives, guaranteed. I think my dog is worth it! costs under 2 quid a day to feed him - less than a pint. BTW protein quality is much more important than just looking at the quantity. .. if you ate chopped shoes, that would be protein, but it would make you verrrrrry windy.


----------



## chestersmum

Im really puzzled now about what is best for my dog
Lily's kitchen food, is it a wet or dry food???? The orijien does seem expensive and might be a bit our of my price range , but on the other hand if it is the best out there then the extra expense is worth it. But it is very high in protein which i dont think is good for a small dog?!?!?!

oh what to do...what to do....


----------



## nellie_dean

Orijen is only the best for those who think it is. For the 99% of dog owners who feed something else - what they feed is the best!


----------



## chestersmum

to be honest i think i will stick with what he is getting at the moment as he is enjoying it . maybe once we have gone through the bag he has left will think about changing

thank you to everyone for replying


----------



## slakey

chestersmum - Take a look at CSJ dog food. *not sure if I can link to them*

They have three types, Original, Command & Performance and Champ.
Low prices and I think they're better then what your currently feeding your lil man/lady on 

Also if your not sure what food to choose, you can ring the owner up herself and you just need to give a description of your dog and what you currently feed him/her and she'll recommend one of their foods, and most likely give your some free samples as they only sell 15kg bags.


----------



## chestersmum

thanks slakey, will have a look on their website!


----------



## Kinski

popsy said:


> Yes - but Lily's is fresh organic MEAT and orijen is meat MEAL - which is dried carcass and skin and any other leftovers ground into a powder, which is not digestible to dogs and full of very unsavoury stuff. Lil'ys is also organic - which means no additives, guaranteed. I think my dog is worth it! costs under 2 quid a day to feed him - less than a pint. BTW protein quality is much more important than just looking at the quantity. .. if you ate chopped shoes, that would be protein, but it would make you verrrrrry windy.


I think you'll find that the bit of your post that I've highlighted is actually called derivatives, as far as I'm aware meat meal is rendered meat. I'm not impressed with the amount of grains in Lily's, organic or not dogs do not need grains in their food.
edited to add that the first ingredient in Orijen is meat not meat meal.

Terri


----------



## slakey

How difficult is it to make your own dry dog food? I was thinking this as I was on the way to the pet shop...

Is it more money then buying a brand which is good? Less or the same price?


----------



## Callia

I am feeding mine on Orijen now that Nutro is no longer going to be available in the UK. My lot are certainly doing very well on it


----------



## popsy

Kinski said:


> I think you'll find that the bit of your post that I've highlighted is actually called derivatives, as far as I'm aware meat meal is rendered meat. I'm not impressed with the amount of grains in Lily's, organic or not dogs do not need grains in their food.
> edited to add that the first ingredient in Orijen is meat not meat meal.
> 
> Terri


Hiya Terri - derivatives is quite different. Meal is basically the powder residue left after all the bones, carcass, skin has been boiled up and then dried out. I tried my dog on a sample of orijen and it gave him the runs as it's so concentrated. Ive since found out from my homeopathic vet that all dry foods are basically made from chicken meal, wheat and then a few other things to make it palatable. Fresh meat with grain and ingredients like lentils, pumpkin seeds and flaxseeds seem like a good mix and my dog adores Lilys Kitchen. I do think organic makes a difference as at least you know that its been check over by the organic agency and there's no nasties in there. Meal does not sound appetising and its not much good for our dogs either.


----------



## nellie_dean

The thing is, there's a wealth of research been done over the past 50 years on dog nutrition, and the results seem to suggest that a a food based upon 18-20% protein is fine, with fat contents around 9-11%, which is where most complete foods are - other than Orijen which is loaded with protein. Grains vary in their digestibility, with wheat at the bottom and rice/maize at the top.


----------



## Snoringbear

Kinski said:


> I think you'll find that the bit of your post that I've highlighted is actually called derivatives, as far as I'm aware meat meal is rendered meat. I'm not impressed with the amount of grains in Lily's, organic or not dogs do not need grains in their food.
> edited to add that the first ingredient in Orijen is meat not meat meal.
> 
> Terri


That is correct. I wouldn't go with the other due to the grains.


----------



## Sarahnya

I've got 3 dogs on Orijen and haven't had any problems, they are all bundles of energy and because it's high in calorie you don't have to feed a lot.

I did find one of my dogs did have the runs for a few weeks after switching but after that he has been fine.

I also switched my grandad's Chihuahua onto Orijen, he had been on Bakers Complete with his previous owner. He had the WORST smelling sloppy poop for about 3 weeks, after 4-5 it became solid and he is doing really well on it, I think with some dogs it just takes longer for their digestive system to get used to it if it is vastly different to what they have been on before.

One brand I'd like to try now is the Applaws dry dog food which came out recently, it's also grain free with a high meat content. Has anyone got any yet, I think you can only get it from Mutley and Mog at the moment but Jollies Pet Store said they were considering stocking it also.


----------



## Fremlin

I too have been lookig curiously at Applaws, here is a list of the ingredients

Applaws Dry Dog Food - 75% Chicken

Ingredients: Dry Chicken Meat, Dry Potato, Poultry Oil, Fresh Chicken, Poultry Gravy, Salmon Oil, Beet Pulp, Dry Whole Eggs, Cellulose Plant Fibre, Brewers Dried Yeast, Cranberry Extract, Yucca Extract, Citrus Extract, Rosemary Oil Extract, Seaweed Extract, Chicory Extract, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Extract, Thyme Extract, Carrots, Peppermint Extract, Rosehip Extract, Paprika Extract, Turmeric Extract, Carob Extract, Fennel Extract, Dandelion Extract, Oregano Extract.

Typical Analysis: Protein 37%, Oils and Fats 20%, Ash 9.5%, Fibre 3.5%, Calcium 1.8%, Phosphorous 1.2%, Vitamin A 12,000 iu/kg, Vitamin D3 1,200 iu/kg,Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) 600 iu/kg. Copper (cupric Sulphate) 14 mg/kg. Contains Tocopherol rich extracts of natural origin. <18.5% Carbohydrates. No added colourants, flavourings or preservatives.


----------



## chestersmum

Hi

Just wanted an opinion on the Pets at Home own brand - 
Main Flavour:
Main flavour(s): Chicken 

Min % Incl. Main Flavour(s):
Minimum content of main flavour: 31% 

Ingredients:
Maize, Fresh Chicken (Min. 20%), Barley, Rice, Poultry Meat Meal, Sugar Beet Pulp, Poultry Digest, Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Flaxseed, Potato Protein, Animal Fat, Cellulose, Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Methionine, Marigold Extract, Yucca Extract, L-Carnitine, Rosemary Extract. With Antioxidant EC Additives (Vitamin E and C). Total Chicken Min. 31%. 

Typical Analysis:
Moisture 8%, Protein 19%, Oils and Fats 9%, Fibre 4.5%, Ash 5% Calcium 0.7%, Phosphorous 0.6%, Vitamin A 12,000iu/kg, Vitamin D3 1,200iu/kg, Vitamin E (A-Tocopherol) 600iu/kg, Copper (Cupric Sulphate) 12mg/kg. Contains Tocopherol Rich Extracts of Natural Origin. No added colourants, flavourings or preservatives. Vitamin declaration is valid until best before date printed with batch number on back of pack. 

Just wondered if this was better than the Europa ...sorry to keep asking just not sure of what I am looking for


----------



## LucyJ

Fremlin said:


> I too have been lookig curiously at Applaws, here is a list of the ingredients
> 
> Applaws Dry Dog Food - 75% Chicken
> 
> Ingredients: Dry Chicken Meat, Dry Potato, Poultry Oil, Fresh Chicken, Poultry Gravy, Salmon Oil, Beet Pulp, Dry Whole Eggs, Cellulose Plant Fibre, Brewers Dried Yeast, Cranberry Extract, Yucca Extract, Citrus Extract, Rosemary Oil Extract, Seaweed Extract, Chicory Extract, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Extract, Thyme Extract, Carrots, Peppermint Extract, Rosehip Extract, Paprika Extract, Turmeric Extract, Carob Extract, Fennel Extract, Dandelion Extract, Oregano Extract.
> 
> Typical Analysis: Protein 37%, Oils and Fats 20%, Ash 9.5%, Fibre 3.5%, Calcium 1.8%, Phosphorous 1.2%, Vitamin A 12,000 iu/kg, Vitamin D3 1,200 iu/kg,Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) 600 iu/kg. Copper (cupric Sulphate) 14 mg/kg. Contains Tocopherol rich extracts of natural origin. <18.5% Carbohydrates. No added colourants, flavourings or preservatives.


Does anyone know the Glucosamine, Chrondoitin, Omega 3 and Omega 6 levels?


----------



## nellie_dean

I think you'll find that the Glucosamine and Chrondoitin are there courtesy of the chicken meal (it's in the ground bone within the meal) and is actually present in all dried foods containing meat meal (as I understand).
I'm not convinced a 37% protein content is good for many dogs, and that's not the way that a lot of nutritional research by the major pet food companies has shown - rather the opposite, that a lower protein coupled with good digestibility leads to a nice lean, healthy dog.
Here's another to throw into the ring - Whites Salmon & Rice Sensitive:

Ingredients: Fresh Salmon, White Rice, Oats, Peas, Salmon Oil, Hydrolysed Salmon Liver, Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Tocopherol Rich Extracts, Minerals and Vitamins

Analysis; Protein 18.5%, Oil 9%, Fibre 2%

The analysis is almost identical to Burns, the ingredients look very tasty (!) and it's got the fish oils for Omega fatty acids. It's just under £30 from Pet Pantry online


----------



## james1

nellie_dean said:


> I think you'll find that the Glucosamine and Chrondoitin are there courtesy of the chicken meal (it's in the ground bone within the meal) and is actually present in all dried foods containing meat meal (as I understand).
> I'm not convinced a 37% protein content is good for many dogs, and that's not the way that a lot of nutritional research by the major pet food companies has shown - rather the opposite, that a lower protein coupled with good digestibility leads to a nice lean, healthy dog.
> Here's another to throw into the ring - Whites Salmon & Rice Sensitive:
> 
> Ingredients: Fresh Salmon, White Rice, Oats, Peas, Salmon Oil, Hydrolysed Salmon Liver, Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Tocopherol Rich Extracts, Minerals and Vitamins
> 
> Analysis; Protein 18.5%, Oil 9%, Fibre 2%
> 
> The analysis is almost identical to Burns, the ingredients look very tasty (!) and it's got the fish oils for Omega fatty acids. It's just under £30 from Pet Pantry online


Ive got my 11 year old on Orijen senior which is very high in meat protein (40%+) fat or oil is at 15% I think (reasonably high) - its helped him loose weight better than anything we've ever done though, part of a good diet regime (basically cutting out table scraps). His health has improved on a weekly basis, there is a lot of talk about protein and kideny function in older dogs, but if your dog is healthy the kidneys should be able to function normally in extracting nutirent, good amounts of water will also help flush them too


----------



## Kinski

nellie_dean said:


> I'm not convinced a 37% protein content is good for many dogs, and that's not the way that a lot of nutritional research by the major pet food companies has shown - rather the opposite, that a lower protein coupled with good digestibility leads to a nice lean, healthy dog.


But a dog fed on a barf diet would I think have more than 37% protein in it's food. I'm another one that feeds Orijen and my pair are thriving on it.

Terri


----------



## james1

With my dog not being able to walk more than a few hundred metres he went up to near 25kg just feeding the recommended amounts brought him back down to an even 20kg within 6 months ... the improvement in his health is drastic no other words for it. Super Beam


----------



## Sarahnya

Can anyone direct me to a site which has the results of these studies that say a dog has to have low protein, I keep reading about it on forums like this but I've not actually read anything official on the subject, there seem to be differing views and the only studies I can find are based on rats which isn't really compareable lol.

To me the major part of a dogs diet should be meat which is naturally high in protein so I don't see how 37% could be harmful, I think a barf diet is around 55%.


----------



## LucyJ

There is a page on the Orijen site that has a list of info and articles, Also
Focusing On Protein - Nutrition Related - ThePetCenter.com - The Internet Animal Hospital

Purina Research Report 1997 â Vol. 0, VET 6115

Judt a few I have from my own research


----------



## james1

just to say you have to be careful of ones produced by competing food companies, as this will have a degree of 'taint' in their findings


----------



## AmyWithey

I did have Cybi on purina and some of you will remember how bad i had it with biting and aggressive behavior (purina was what the breeder had him on)

I've changed him onto James wellbeloved and he absolutely adores it he's having the duck and rice one at the moment - he's calmed down and is now such a lovely dog - the only problem we are having now is re training him to go to the toilet in the garden - Also his poo's are HUGEEE lol i mean massive and he's only 14 weeks they are about a foot long lol.


----------



## pedigreejoey

I find that Arden Grange is a really good dog food. It is a little more expensive though - But they will deliver direct to your door, and if you buy the big 15kg sacks of food, it actually works out at quite a reasonable cost.


----------



## james1

AmyWithey said:


> I did have Cybi on purina and some of you will remember how bad i had it with biting and aggressive behavior (purina was what the breeder had him on)
> 
> I've changed him onto James wellbeloved and he absolutely adores it he's having the duck and rice one at the moment - he's calmed down and is now such a lovely dog - the only problem we are having now is re training him to go to the toilet in the garden - Also his poo's are HUGEEE lol i mean massive and he's only 14 weeks they are about a foot long lol.


you might be feeding him a little too much...  its true what a difference a good food will do to the nature of a dog. My prefered is Burns, love the stuff for my spaniel


----------



## botty

hi my cav king charles is only a small dog and we fed him bakers puppy as its small we tried him on thee adult and the chunks where to big he would not eat them 
i want to wean him of bakers as what people keep saying and it got to much additives 
what can you recommend for him for small biscuits meal 
would burns be ok 
thanks


----------



## Nonnie

botty said:


> hi my cav king charles is only a small dog and we fed him bakers puppy as its small we tried him on thee adult and the chunks where to big he would not eat them
> i want to wean him of bakers as what people keep saying and it got to much additives
> what can you recommend for him for small biscuits meal
> would burns be ok
> thanks


Burns would be fine, as would Arden Grange or Orijen.


----------



## james1

kibbles are generally the same size for puppy or adult, the only difference is when you have a large breed, the kibbles get bigger.
If hes a kc spaniel id have to go with burns, I think it suits them down to the ground, keeps them healthy and trim, full of life but not overly energetic and helps their concentration if your looking to train.


----------



## AmyWithey

james1 said:


> you might be feeding him a little too much...  its true what a difference a good food will do to the nature of a dog. My prefered is Burns, love the stuff for my spaniel


probably i need to weigh him in pets at home to work out how much to feed him in relation to what it says on the bag lol.


----------



## james1

AmyWithey said:


> probably i need to weigh him in pets at home to work out how much to feed him in relation to what it says on the bag lol.


I dont know about lab weights, some people prefer their dogs with a little belly on them others dont - it does depends on what standard of lab you have though, as some show labs can look very big though run for days, id try to keep weight just above minimum for breed standard so as not to stress the joins/bones/organs... Your vet should have some scales you know lol


----------



## Sarahnya

LucyJ said:


> There is a page on the Orijen site that has a list of info and articles, Also
> Focusing On Protein - Nutrition Related - ThePetCenter.com - The Internet Animal Hospital
> 
> Purina Research Report 1997 â Vol. 0, VET 6115
> 
> Judt a few I have from my own research


Thanks, for that!


----------



## nellie_dean

Sarahnya said:


> Can anyone direct me to a site which has the results of these studies that say a dog has to have low protein, I keep reading about it on forums like this but I've not actually read anything official on the subject, there seem to be differing views and the only studies I can find are based on rats which isn't really compareable lol.
> 
> To me the major part of a dogs diet should be meat which is naturally high in protein so I don't see how 37% could be harmful, I think a barf diet is around 55%.


It's not easy getting access to research papers, but there is a quite well known bit of research which showed that a 25% reduction in overall recommended nutrition resulted in leaner healthier dogs which lived longer.

I know that this does not just look at protein, but on the whole diet, but on that basis alone I would be wary of feeding a high protein/high fat diet or recommending it, as so many people overfeed.

I know that as a result of this research Purina altered the % protein in their foods down.

Details of that research are as follows:

Abstract
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
May 1, 2002, Vol. 220, No. 9, Pages 1315-1320
doi: 10.2460/javma.2002.220.1315

Effects of diet restriction on life span and age-related changes in dogs

Richard D. Kealy, PhD Dennis F. Lawler, DVM Joan M. Ballam, MS Sandra L. Mantz, Darryl N. Biery, DVM, DACVR Elizabeth H. Greeley, PhD George Lust, PhD Mariangela Segre, DSc Gail K. Smith, DVM, PhD, DACVS Howard D. Stowe, DVM, PhD
Pet Nutrition Research Department, Nestle Purina Pet Care Co, Checkerboard Square, St Louis, MO 63164. (Kealy, Lawler, Mantz); Statistical Services Department, Nestle Purina Pet Care Co, Checkerboard Square, St Louis, MO 63164. (Ballam); Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104. (Biery, Smith); Department of Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Illinois, Urbana, IL 61801. (Greeley, Segre); James A. Baker Institute for Animal Health, New York State College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853. (Lust); Department of Large Animal Clinical Medicine, College of Veterinary Medicine, Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI 48823. (Stowe)

ObjectiveTo evaluate the effects of 25% diet restriction on life span of dogs and on markers of aging.

DesignPaired feeding study.

Animals48 Labrador Retrievers.

ProceduresDogs were paired, and 1 dog in each pair was fed 25% less food than its pair-mate from 8 weeks of age until death. Serum biochemical analyses were performed, body condition was scored, and body composition was measured annually until 12 years of age. Age at onset of chronic disease and median (age when 50% of the dogs were deceased) and maximum (age when 90% of the dogs were deceased) life spans were evaluated.

ResultsCompared with control dogs, food-restricted dogs weighed less and had lower body fat content and lower serum triglycerides, triiodothyronine, insulin, and glucose concentrations. Median life span was significantly longer for dogs in which food was restricted. The onset of clinical signs of chronic disease generally was delayed for food-restricted dogs.

Conclusions and Clinical RelevanceResults suggest that 25% restriction in food intake increased median life span and delayed the onset of signs of chronic disease in these dogs. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2002;220:13151320)


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## Sarahnya

I'm going on a diet then! 

Seriously though, I do agree a lot of people overfeed without realising it. A friend of mine has 2 collies and one in particular is like a blinking TANK, I've made more than a few hints that she ought to cut their food down a bit but she still free feeds them. She insists the porky one is about right and the other, who is actually overweight in my eyes, needs to put weight on 

Personally I don't follow feeding guidelines, I think one of my dogs would actually be a blimp if I did. I just go on how they are looking, if they are looking a little plump I'll cut the food down for a few days and cut out any fattening treats like pig ears etc.


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## RohanCarthy

Our puppy was on Hills large breed puppy when we got him from the breeder so we've kept him on it. At £50 for a 15KG sack its one of the most expensive is it one of the best or are we paying too much when another brand would be better for him?


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## james1

your paying too much and its actually one of the worst, you should change him and youll see benefits from obedience to less stools to coat improvements 

what type of dog is he and how old... if you can manage that amount of money Orijen is top of the range at 46 pounds, both of mine are on it but still there are some better foods than Hills for a lot lot less 

(you basically feed them less with orijen so it lasts a similar lenght of time to other kibbles)


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## RohanCarthy

He's an 18Wk old lab, Rohan.

I haven't heard of that one. a dog trainer recomended Beta but other posters have said thats not good either?


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## james1

James Wellbeloved Lamb is probably the best you could buy for him at this age, its a very good adult food too, Id take him off the hills and youll see an improvement immediately. My pup was on Beta and a lot of pups are given it, I changed mine to Burns at 12wks as he was having fits of energy that just would not stop until he exhausted himself, Burns cooled him immediately and improved his attention in training. It does keep dogs lean though, so with a lab id expect youd want a few lbs on him which is why I say JWB 
Orijens tip top, so maybe look at it when hes 6-7 + mths? you wont find a better food really apart from a well judged BARF diet..??


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## nellie_dean

There are a lot of very good, natural foods around £30 for a 15kg sack. The best way of choosing seems to be to pick one that names the meat source (with chicken/duck/fish being good sources of protein) and uses a highly digestible grain such as rice or maize as the source of carbohydrates. Most of this type are naturally preserved.
You certainly don't need to spend £40-50 unless you feel a burning hole in your purse to do so!
I always think the Pets at Home website is the best place to compare foods because it's so well set out. In fact, their own range (Wainwrights and Pets at Home brand) are also very good (see review here)


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## james1

...... maize isnt well digested at all - their digestive tract is too small to process it  rice is fine. 

edit: and just to add, where we use carbs to process into energy, they get theirs from meat proteins such is their make up, they dont have any use for carbs really, which is why high meat diets and BARF is so healthy for them.


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## BenMac

I've heard some good things about the CSJ food....so have ordered a bag of "That'll Do" to try as Ben is a VERY windy boy 

Will leave some feedback once the changeover period is over and he's eating that solely.


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## popsy

I came across this recently, which really horrified me as all dry dog food contains 'chicken meal' or 'cooked chicken' (which is meal) - all meal is from rendered animals....The Dark Side of Recycling - Rendering Plants

yep, the Lily's is more expensive, but at least its just made with organic chicken and doesn't have any of these rendered by-products.

orijin is so expensive and disguises the fact that the protein is mainly coming from rendered meat meal - it says 70% meat on the pack, but can you really count this ingredient as meat?? And it doesnt seem "biologically appropriate" either. Dogs just cannot digest this and such a high protein content is not good for them. I fed Orijin until my vet pointed out that the protein is not digestible and is too high in any case which stresses out the kidneys. The reason why your dog is windy is that he/she can't digest the meal in the food.

Feeding dry food alone is not the answer as most dry foods are made with meal and not real, fresh meat.


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## Pampered pets

what does anyone think of vitalin? i was thinking of trying this as it says you can feed it wet or dry and i though my dogs would like it wet occasionally.

I use vitalin for my ferrets as its the best ferret food out there so i was thinking maybe if the vatalin was so good for ferrets the dog food would be good to?????


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## master groomer

have a loo at harringtons available from asda and tescos and direct from them deliverd just as good as james well beloved but at a 5th of the price


----------



## james1

popsy said:


> I came across this recently, which really horrified me as all dry dog food contains 'chicken meal' or 'cooked chicken' (which is meal) - all meal is from rendered animals....The Dark Side of Recycling - Rendering Plants
> 
> yep, the Lily's is more expensive, but at least its just made with organic chicken and doesn't have any of these rendered by-products.
> 
> orijin is so expensive and disguises the fact that the protein is mainly coming from rendered meat meal - it says 70% meat on the pack, but can you really count this ingredient as meat?? And it doesnt seem "biologically appropriate" either. Dogs just cannot digest this and such a high protein content is not good for them. I fed Orijin until my vet pointed out that the protein is not digestible and is too high in any case which stresses out the kidneys. The reason why your dog is windy is that he/she can't digest the meal in the food.
> 
> Feeding dry food alone is not the answer as most dry foods are made with meal and not real, fresh meat.


Have to disagree with that popsy, the dogs digestive system is designed solely to digest meat, it is not designed to digest complex carbs such as corns, wheats, maizes, starches. Your vet probably said the high protein count can put stress on the kidneys of older dogs or possibly pups - I can assure you if the dog is healthy then the kidneys would be working normally therefore not be working any harder than normal.

"Meat meal" is different from "meat" yes but its not as scary as what some scare stories make out. Firstly Orijen is produced in Canada where the regulations on the production of pet foods far exceeds most other countries. They are so heavily regulated which only a few brands come from Canada and they are all high end because of this. Orijen has won independent reviews as top dog food 2009/10 and independent studies peformed by Universities getting 6 star ratings (top being 6) for its health benefits and igredients content.

In the Adult Orijen: Meat is the top with 2 meal types next then Fish meat
In the Senior Orijen: Meat is again top with 2 meals and then Fish 4th
In the Puppy Orijen: Meat is again top with 2 meals next and Fish 4th again
The two meal products are the only meal products in the entire ingredients listings and contain things like carcases and bones - things that are perfectly healthy to give (marrowbone) but would otherwise go to waste

The reasons why a dog gets wind are several and typically not due to protein. Alfalfa makes dogs prrrp however putting stress on their bowel say exercising after eating will also make them prrrp, theres also general gastro problems to consider however for the majority, meat protein is not the cause of this.


----------



## james1

Pampered pets said:


> what does anyone think of vitalin? i was thinking of trying this as it says you can feed it wet or dry and i though my dogs would like it wet occasionally.
> 
> I use vitalin for my ferrets as its the best ferret food out there so i was thinking maybe if the vatalin was so good for ferrets the dog food would be good to?????


Ive never heard of it sorry - never really heard it recommended on here either to be honest  have a look at the ingredients. Most kibbles can have water added to make a gravy - I dont really see the point of this other than helping those with sensitive stomachs but just thought id say


----------



## Pampered pets

james1 said:


> Ive never heard of it sorry - never really heard it recommended on here either to be honest  have a look at the ingredients. Most kibbles can have water added to make a gravy - I dont really see the point of this other than helping those with sensitive stomachs but just thought id say


Thanks, i just wondered because the ferret food is of such good quality, i think its called vatalin gold.

MY dogs wont eat much dry food and it dosnt seem interesting so i thought wetting it might be more tempting, i do add two spoonfuls of tinned dog food on top to tempt them.


----------



## james1

The name rings a bell but I havent looked into it, have you tried live natural yougurt? It gets them very hungry  I found my boy was very loose after wet foods so stopped using them..


----------



## Nonnie

master groomer said:


> have a loo at harringtons available from asda and tescos and direct from them deliverd just as good as james well beloved but at a 5th of the price


Not as good as JWB, and has maize as the first ingredient, with only 14% meat meal in it.



>  Maize
>  Lamb Meat Meal (min 14%)
>  Rice (min 14%)
>  Barley
>  Meat Meal
>  Fat
>  Beet Pulp (min 4%)
>  Digest
>  Vitamins & Minerals
>  Linseed
>  With Kelp, Citrus, Yeast & Yucca
>  Tocopherol rich extracts of
> natural origin


Not to mention meat meal and fat from unknown sources.


----------



## james1

Nonnie said:


> Not to mention meat meal and fat from unknown sources.


Very good point Nonnie: when a meal has no listed animal source you have need to be concerned as its source is literally anyones guess. When a meal source is listed ie chicken or turkey, you know exactly what animal is being used in the kibble.

Note: "Derivatives" are different from "meals" and should be avoided in kibbles. 

The Harringtons having very low meat count doesnt look that good really especially with the maize being a higher quantity in the order of ingredients. 
edit: it has yeast in too!!! not good - causes bloating in their stomachs - it can have fatal consequences too...


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## RohanCarthy

Other than the price can someone tell me what is wrong with Hills?

The ingredients have minimum 30% chicken( puppy large breed) and no artificial colours, preservatives or flavourings?


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## james1

They have changed their ingredients by all counts within the last few months though on the whole - they are rubbish, far better foods for the price, lots of threads on this. It been told too many times, just look through a few thread and youll find something  1 is their use of guar gum as one of their grains - its an industrail thickener derived from corn starch - basically binds everything together for passsage.


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## RohanCarthy

It seems as though whatever the food someone has had a negative experience with it!
We have at least a months worth left so i'll keep looking at the forum before I make a final decision.


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## Robertdavid

I can personally vouch for the ingredients in Natural Instinct as have seen it made - human grade meat and bone from Smithfield market, plus fresh fruit and veg - and nothing else. They don't use any wheat or grains, or "meal" or "derivatives" and dogs seem to absolutely thrive on it. They deliver for free too.


----------



## nellie_dean

popsy said:


> I came across this recently, which really horrified me as all dry dog food contains 'chicken meal' or 'cooked chicken' (which is meal) - all meal is from rendered animals....The Dark Side of Recycling - Rendering Plants
> 
> You have to differentiate between what used to go on in the US (the article above) and the meat used in pet food in the UK.
> There are far too many horror stories around!
> 
> If the ingredient declaration says chicken meal (or just chicken) then this is chicken meat from the human food chain after we've had all the bits off that we want. The carcasses are rendered down and usable protein is dried to a powder that can then be incorporated into the pet food. It will also include a proportion of bone which is actually good.
> 
> There is actually a good arguement which goes along the lines of 'If this product wasn't used in pet food then the amount of chicken/lamb carcasses remaining after processing for humans would be almost impossible to get rid of - would we want it in landfill?'
> 
> If your ingredient declaration says 'animal by-products' then that's a different story of course!


----------



## popsy

james1 said:


> Have to disagree with that popsy.......
> 
> "Meat meal" is different from "meat" yes but its not as scary as what some scare stories make out. Firstly Orijen is produced in Canada where the regulations on the production of pet foods far exceeds most other countries. They are so heavily regulated which only a few brands come from Canada and they are all high end because of this. Orijen has won independent reviews as top dog food 2009/10 and independent studies peformed by Universities getting 6 star ratings (top being 6) for its health benefits and igredients content.
> 
> In the Adult Orijen: Meat is the top with 2 meal types next then Fish meat
> In the Senior Orijen: Meat is again top with 2 meals and then Fish 4th
> In the Puppy Orijen: Meat is again top with 2 meals next and Fish 4th again
> The two meal products are the only meal products in the entire ingredients listings and contain things like carcases and bones - things that are perfectly healthy to give (marrowbone) but would otherwise go to waste
> 
> James, you seem to be really knowledgeable about Orijin foods - are you on a commission?!
> 
> Sorry - but I just would never feed a food that is so packed with meal meal - which is not even organic. I mean it's all the toxic stuff going into a powder and then being described as 'meat'. A grain-free dry food means that the ingredient that makes it all stick together is meat meal overload - very hard for our poor pets to digest this..and will leave them open to all sorts of illnesses, skin problems etc.


----------



## BenMac

Have just taken delivery of my first bag of CSJ "That'll Do" and after checking out their website and feedback on their foods, I feel I may now have found the one i've been looking for.

The two dogs have already tried to "break in" to the bag and judging be the racket they were making....they seem to find the smell appetising enough 

I'm sure that the pup will be looking forward to when he's allowed to eat it too!


----------



## james1

popsy said:


> James, you seem to be really knowledgeable about Orijin foods - are you on a commission?!


Whats that supposed to mean? Ive recommended several foods, it just so happends that now im feeding them Orijen at present.



popsy said:


> Sorry - but I just would never feed a food that is so packed with meal meal - which is not even organic. I mean it's all the toxic stuff going into a powder and then being described as 'meat'. A grain-free dry food means that the ingredient that makes it all stick together is meat meal overload - very hard for our poor pets to digest this..and will leave them open to all sorts of illnesses, skin problems etc.


Orijen isnt packed with meal at all - the first ingredient in all of their prodcts is meat meaning it has the highest inclusion. They use human grade meats too. The 2 meals are from stated animals which is also good. Theres nothing toxic about it, and I said in an earlier post Orijen is probably second to a very well judged BARF diet. Asside from giving them raw bones - meal would be the only way a kibble could include carcass etc.
I really dont know what your talking about grain free foods makes ingredients stick together? youve lost me there. 
Grains arent included as some are poisonous ie corn, some cause irritation ie wheat and some are not easily digested ie maize.

I think your trying to recommend Lillys Kitchen bake or something. Organic foods dont really have that much nutritional gusto over normally produced foods. Organic foods are really a lifestyle choice originally designed to get people aware of chemicals used in farming. There have been longitudal comparison studies done on organic v's regualar diets and the results showed no exposure to anything harmfull and no benefits as far as general health between the two.

This isnt a competetion to outdo each other on pet foods - its simply a dicussion to give people an idea of what foods might be suitable for _their_ dog. The best is always debatable and could go on for ever....


----------



## james1

BenMac said:


> Have just taken delivery of my first bag of CSJ "That'll Do" and after checking out their website and feedback on their foods, I feel I may now have found the one i've been looking for.
> 
> The two dogs have already tried to "break in" to the bag and judging be the racket they were making....they seem to find the smell appetising enough
> 
> I'm sure that the pup will be looking forward to when he's allowed to eat it too!


Ive heard a lot of good reports about CSJ itll be nice to hear how they get along with it - wouldnt mind a pm of you in a month or so being honest


----------



## Guest

popsy said:


> James, you seem to be really knowledgeable about Orijin foods - are you on a commission?!
> 
> Sorry - but I just would never feed a food that is so packed with meal meal - which is not even organic. I mean it's all the toxic stuff going into a powder and then being described as 'meat'. A grain-free dry food means that the ingredient that makes it all stick together is meat meal overload - very hard for our poor pets to digest this..and will leave them open to all sorts of illnesses, skin problems etc.


James simply knows how to feed his dogs the best quality dry food available in the UK  and like any other Orijen "user" will be ready to recommend it highly to others! 
I use Orijen and my dogs thrive on it!
Orijen is made firstly (main, first, ingredient) with fresh meat or fish and often "organic" (free-range or wild-caught) and then meat meal of high quality and standards! And no grain is much better for the dog's digestion! My dog was a stinker lol on any other food until I introduced him to JWB cereals free and then Orijen! I can confirm that my dogs look perfectly healthy, their coats are great and what comes out is another proof that I am feeding them the right food for them!
It remains dry food so it is not better, in my books, than raw but until I can afford to have a freezer for my dogs only and until I am more confident about feeding my dogs raw, I will stick to the best alternative I can find!

xx


----------



## BenMac

james1 said:


> Ive heard a lot of good reports about CSJ itll be nice to hear how they get along with it - wouldnt mind a pm of you in a month or so being honest


Will do


----------



## nellie_dean

There seems to be some sort of religious cult forming around Orijen food - with proponents convinced that this is manna from heaven (or Canada anyway!)
I remain unconvinced about the high meat content. If you were to compare this to a human diet it would be like being on the Atkins diet for life, and although you can lose weight on that, long term it's not healthy.
I've said this before but genuine scientific research indicates that a restricted diet is best for long term health, and years of experience by companies like Burns have shown the health benefits of feeding a lower protein/fat food, particularly for dogs which have common health problems associated with skin and digestion. Also, and this is a big ALSO, there are potentially long term health problems of feeding a pup a high protein packed food as it might lead to the building up of excess muscle mass on an undeveloped frame, which could result in joint problems later in life.
Orijen, I guess is marketed at those who would normally raw feed and want an alternative to the hassle of food preparation.
The acid test is this - if it could be proven scientifically that an Orijen-type diet was best suited for dogs, then you can be sure that the big companies like Iams/Hills etc would have jumped on the bandwagon, because they are market led.
They haven't, and I think that speaks louder than I can!


----------



## WoodyGSP

nellie_dean said:


> There seems to be some sort of religious cult forming around Orijen food - with proponents convinced that this is manna from heaven (or Canada anyway!)
> I remain unconvinced about the high meat content. If you were to compare this to a human diet it would be like being on the Atkins diet for life, and although you can lose weight on that, long term it's not healthy.
> I've said this before but genuine scientific research indicates that a restricted diet is best for long term health, and years of experience by companies like Burns have shown the health benefits of feeding a lower protein/fat food, particularly for dogs which have common health problems associated with skin and digestion. Also, and this is a big ALSO, there are potentially long term health problems of feeding a pup a high protein packed food as it might lead to the building up of excess muscle mass on an undeveloped frame, which could result in joint problems later in life.
> Orijen, I guess is marketed at those who would normally raw feed and want an alternative to the hassle of food preparation.
> The acid test is this - if it could be proven scientifically that an Orijen-type diet was best suited for dogs, then you can be sure that the big companies like Iams/Hills etc would have jumped on the bandwagon, because they are market led.
> They haven't, and I think that speaks louder than I can!


Why would you "compare this to a human diet" ? A dog is NOT a human.


----------



## Kinski

nellie_dean said:


> There seems to be some sort of religious cult forming around Orijen food - with proponents convinced that this is manna from heaven (or Canada anyway!)
> I remain unconvinced about the high meat content. If you were to compare this to a human diet it would be like being on the Atkins diet for life, and although you can lose weight on that, long term it's not healthy.
> I've said this before but genuine scientific research indicates that a restricted diet is best for long term health, and years of experience by companies like Burns have shown the health benefits of feeding a lower protein/fat food, particularly for dogs which have common health problems associated with skin and digestion. Also, and this is a big ALSO, there are potentially long term health problems of feeding a pup a high protein packed food as it might lead to the building up of excess muscle mass on an undeveloped frame, which could result in joint problems later in life.
> Orijen, I guess is marketed at those who would normally raw feed and want an alternative to the hassle of food preparation.
> The acid test is this - if it could be proven scientifically that an Orijen-type diet was best suited for dogs, then you can be sure that the big companies like Iams/Hills etc would have jumped on the bandwagon, because they are market led.
> They haven't, and I think that speaks louder than I can!


Why would you want to compare what humans eat to what dogs eat as far as I'm aware our dietry needs are different. Surely a high meat content in dog food can only be good as that's what dogs would eat in the wild, they certainly wouldn't be eating all the carbs that most manufacturers put in their food. To me the reason that the other companies don't have a higher meat content is that it would cost them to much, they would then have to put their prices up and that would mean they would loose a lot of customers.
I don't think that there's many of us on here that actually feed Orijen, the people in our local park who have started to feed it to their dogs say that they have noticed a difference in their dogs ( for the better  ).

Terri


----------



## noushka05

nellie_dean said:


> There seems to be some sort of religious cult forming around Orijen food - with proponents convinced that this is manna from heaven (or Canada anyway!)
> I remain unconvinced about the high meat content. If you were to compare this to a human diet it would be like being on the Atkins diet for life, and although you can lose weight on that, long term it's not healthy.
> I've said this before but genuine scientific research indicates that a restricted diet is best for long term health, and years of experience by companies like Burns have shown the health benefits of feeding a lower protein/fat food, particularly for dogs which have common health problems associated with skin and digestion. Also, and this is a big ALSO, there are potentially long term health problems of feeding a pup a high protein packed food as it might lead to the building up of excess muscle mass on an undeveloped frame, which could result in joint problems later in life.
> Orijen, I guess is marketed at those who would normally raw feed and want an alternative to the hassle of food preparation.
> The acid test is this - if it could be proven scientifically that an Orijen-type diet was best suited for dogs, then you can be sure that the big companies like Iams/Hills etc would have jumped on the bandwagon, because they are market led.
> They haven't, and I think that speaks louder than I can!


its all about the quality of the protein, because the protein in Orijen is from meat, an excellent natural source for a dog i dont think the high protein content is anything to worry about, to me Orijen isthe next best thing to feeding them raw, i believe problems with high protein only occur when the protein comes from a poor 'unatural' source, as in cheap dog foods.

Iams/Hills imo are garbage


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## james1

nellie_dean said:


> the big companies like Iams/Hills etc would have jumped on the bandwagon, because they are market led.
> They haven't, and I think that speaks louder than I can!


Just to add companies youve mentioned like Hills and Iams are highly market driven, if they charge what they are charging now for the ingredients in their foods - the price they would be charging for higher meat grades would push them completely out of the market.
Pedigree is also one of the biggest - does this mean they are the best or that the foods they use in give the dog the nutrition it needs? as they have certainly been going for decades? I dont think so.


----------



## pizzapie

I feed Bailey Tesco's own Just Nature. He loves it and it has had wonderful results on his coat and temperament! He is full of life and cannot wait for his dinner these days. I hope it is OK food though - could anyone help me with that please? Here is the analysis:

Cereals (maize, brown rice, Barley,oats
Meat and animal derivatives (min 20% chicken)
Oils and Fats
Vegetable Protein extracts
Vegetables 9min 4% carrot, 4% peas, spinach, tomato)
Minerals
Derivatives of vegetable origin
Fruit (citrus pulp, grape pomace)

Protein - 23.5%
Oils and fats 13.8%
Ash 5%
Fibre 2.3%

It is wheat free, dairy free and free from artificial colours/preservatives.

How does it compare do you think??

Thank you x


----------



## LucyJ

popsy said:


> james1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have to disagree with that popsy.......
> 
> "Meat meal" is different from "meat" yes but its not as scary as what some scare stories make out. Firstly Orijen is produced in Canada where the regulations on the production of pet foods far exceeds most other countries. They are so heavily regulated which only a few brands come from Canada and they are all high end because of this. Orijen has won independent reviews as top dog food 2009/10 and independent studies peformed by Universities getting 6 star ratings (top being 6) for its health benefits and igredients content.
> 
> In the Adult Orijen: Meat is the top with 2 meal types next then Fish meat
> In the Senior Orijen: Meat is again top with 2 meals and then Fish 4th
> In the Puppy Orijen: Meat is again top with 2 meals next and Fish 4th again
> The two meal products are the only meal products in the entire ingredients listings and contain things like carcases and bones - things that are perfectly healthy to give (marrowbone) but would otherwise go to waste
> 
> James, you seem to be really knowledgeable about Orijin foods - are you on a commission?!
> 
> Sorry - but I just would never feed a food that is so packed with meal meal - which is not even organic. I mean it's all the toxic stuff going into a powder and then being described as 'meat'. A grain-free dry food means that the ingredient that makes it all stick together is meat meal overload - very hard for our poor pets to digest this..and will leave them open to all sorts of illnesses, skin problems etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Meat meal does not make the kibble 'form' thats achived by carbohydrate - in Orijen it's apples and potatoes in other grain free foods other starches such as root vegetables.
> 
> Meat meal is not toxic - there are many websites, such as the PMFA for the UK, DEFRA if you can wade through site, AAFCO for the US and Canada that give the factual and legal explanation for dog food ingredients.
> 
> This is a totally independent site, there are many, that has an easy to read glossary of pet food ingredients.
> UK dog foods - Pet food ingredient listings glossary
> 
> What illnesses and skin problems come from meat meal? I have never, in any research article, both pro and anti high protein diets seen any reference and would be interested to read any.
> 
> Thanks in advance
Click to expand...


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## james1

Lucy J it is Popsy who you need to be asking that as I didnt say that - for some reason your quote has extracts of what I have said but the majority is from Popsy - I see nothing wrong with meal products on the whole.

If you look at pages 66 and 67 youll get a better idea of the conversation 


nellie_dean also seems to support Popsys views on this 



Cheers


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## lady_r0gue

I'm just starting my boy on measured Burns Alert (he's on a diet, he need to lose about 3kg) ... Finally I've found a dog food that ticks all the boxes! No Wheat, no Soya or other allegens, no GM, low in fat, high in quality meat protein, made with brown rice, suitable for seniors, made in the UK, not made by a company that uses vivisection... and it falls within a price range I can manage! (Costs around £38 incl free delivery for 15 kilos. For him that's about £1 a day if I fed him exclusively on it) - I'll keep you posted on the results



> Canine Alert Chicken & Brown Rice 15kg
> 
> For many assistance dogs work requires mental alertness and low or moderate physical activity; they must be calm, well behaved and attentive. These dogs require a low energy diet most of the time. Burns Canine Alert is formulated to meet those demands. Protein and fact levels are controlled; this promotes excellent health, both physical and mental. Levels of antioxidants and omega 3 fats are increased; this helps to neutralise free radicals which can inhibit brain function.
> 
> A complete food for assistance dogs. Suitable for all adults including seniors.
> 
> Contains:
> 
> * Brown rice (min 63%)
> * Chicken meal (min 20%)
> * Oats
> * Peas
> * Fish Oil
> * Chicken Oil
> * Minerals & Vitamins
> * Seaweed
> * Chicken Livers
> * Green Tea Extract
> * Grapeseed Extract
> 
> Typical Analysis:
> 
> * Protein 18.5%
> * Oil 7.5%
> * Fibre 2.2%
> * Ash 7.0%
> * Vitamin A 15000 iu/kg
> * Vitamin D 1000 iu/kg
> * Vitamin E 100 iu/kg
> * Vitamin C 45mg/kg
> * Moisture 8%
> * Copper 20mg/kg
> * Sodium 0.13%
> * Calcium 1.10%
> * Phosphorus 0.63%
> * Magnesium 0.10%
> * Essential Fatty Acids 3.10%
> * Potassium 0.31%
> * Chloride 0.17%
> * Sulphur 0.10%
> * Selenium 0.2%
> 
> Available in 15kg, 7.5kg and 2kg


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## lady_r0gue

nellie_dean said:


> There seems to be some sort of religious cult forming around Orijen food - with proponents convinced that this is manna from heaven (or Canada anyway!)


To be honest that's the only thing that put me off Orijen- the location alongside the price... which reflects the fact that it has to be shipped about 3500 miles to get here. Surely that's not good for our environment _or_ our pockets.


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## LucyJ

james1 said:


> Lucy J it is Popsy who you need to be asking that as I didnt say that - for some reason your quote has extracts of what I have said but the majority is from Popsy - I see nothing wrong with meal products on the whole.
> 
> If you look at pages 66 and 67 youll get a better idea of the conversation
> 
> nellie_dean also seems to support Popsys views on this
> 
> Cheers


James, I'm really sorry. I included the wrong quote I meant to quote Popsys.

Oh dear hope I haven't upset anybody as I love this forum.

About the distance / travel time I wrestle with this. Some things are shipped around the world already made and packed. Others are made here in the UK but the ingredients are shipped in, grain from the far east and lamb from New Zealand. Just like our food.


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## james1

lady_r0gue said:


> To be honest that's the only thing that put me off Orijen- the location alongside the price... which reflects the fact that it has to be shipped about 3500 miles to get here. Surely that's not good for our environment _or_ our pockets.


I dont think there is any one plane or boat that carries soley Orijen foodstuffs, It will come in containers alongside the rest of the UKs imported goods from toasters to motor parts. I do like to buy British, however, trade works both ways so if we were to cut off using a foreign countries products they will more than likely stop using ours. No real reason not to use a decent kibble I dont think


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## Guest

Talking about a bandwagon, there is in actual fact a bandwagon about good quality grain free high meat content dog food but the UK is not yet very affected (however I do believe it is starting up as we see other food similar to Orijen becoming known and available - and see JWB grain free option) possibly because the market is still mostly taken up by companies who prefer to make cheap crap alternative that people buy because they dont know any better.

In Australia, Canada and other places people can be much more concerned about the food they eat and that includes the food they feed to their pets, and that concerns translate itself in a real and strong market for high quality pet food. (Orijen is not the only brand, far from it)

In the UK a lot of people have not yet started asking questions about the thing they feed their dogs or pets with and continue to be "supermarket" driven, hence leaving a large part of the market to IAMS or other with their crap pet food. Vets in this country have also played a large part in introducing people to dry pet food and there again they continue to have an influence and to push other brands like Hills (not because it is the best but because they make money out of it too!).

I dont care about any bandwagon for my dogs: i read the labels and choose the best I can until I feel confident enough to take care of their diet from stratch!

xx


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## Nonnie

Its impossible for this country to sustain itself on UK grown produce alone.

We import over 50,000 chickens on a weekly basis from Thailand, just to meet the demands. Most fastfood chicken is from overseas producers.


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## AmyWithey

well cybi has finished his first bag of JWB duck and Rice and i have opened the turkey and rice one and he doesnt like it as much as the duck ... fussy little bugger lol.

I have the lamb one aswell and i saw another one that was a fish one but not bought that yet wasnt sure about it.

I tried the JWB wet food aswell and cybi wolfed it down but at 60p a packet it would cost a fortune every month!


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## popsy

LucyJ said:


> popsy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meat meal does not make the kibble 'form' thats achived by carbohydrate - in Orijen it's apples and potatoes in other grain free foods other starches such as root vegetables.
> 
> Meat meal is not toxic - there are many websites, such as the PMFA for the UK, DEFRA if you can wade through site, AAFCO for the US and Canada that give the factual and legal explanation for dog food ingredients.
> 
> Hey Lucy
> I've just looked up PFMA - it is the trade association for pet food manufacturers so, err, of course its gonna defend the use of the ingredients its members use in pet food! DEFRA are fine with it as it's a good way to use up waste from the human food chain. Sorry to harp on about this, but I;ve just got an email from a pet food co in the US titled "Why we don't use Chicken Meal in our Dry Food" and goes on to say this is NOT meat! it is meat MEAL - ie all the leftover dregs - skin, hair, feather, carcass, made into a powder. This is no scare mongering, its a fact - that is what meal meal is. It's worrying that more and more pet food companies are bringing out 'grain-free' dry food, because what they are supplementing the grain with is really high volumes of meat meal - yes there are starches in there but only way down the ingredient list, so at 1% or less. Meat meal is also really cheap and absolutely laden with chemical preservatives. Maybe that's why the food stink so much!
> 
> Best to look for fresh meat content - ideally organic.
Click to expand...


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## Nonnie

popsy said:


> Why we don't use Chicken Meal in our Dry Food" and goes on to say this is NOT meat! it is meat MEAL - ie all the leftover dregs - skin, hair, feather, carcass, made into a powder. This is no scare mongering, its a fact - that is what meal meal is.


That is incorrect.



> * Meat/Meat Based  This is the clean flesh from an animal. It may also include organ meats, tendons, blood vessels, etc. (Regardless of the meat used).
> * *Meat Meal  Rendered meat, it may NOT contain hair, hooves, or stomach contents. Rendering is to extract all usable bits from the animal by heating  such as taking oils from rendering fat. Meal gives a better true weight as is it dried when used. *
> * Meat By-Products  These are elements (cleaned) such as organs, bone, blood and fatty tissue. No hooves or hair should be in by-products.
> * Poultry By-Products  Clean parts of chicken like organs, feet, and heads but no fecal matter.
> * Poultry By-Product meal  Rendered by-products and no feathers added.
> * Meat and Bone Meal  From meat and bone but does not contain hooves, hair, blood, manure, hide pieces, stomach, etc.
> * Tallow This is hard white fat that is hard to digest.
> * Animal Digest  This is NOT the stomach content, as the name would imply. This is chemically broken down animal tissue. It does not contain horn, beaks, hair, hooves, feathers, etc.
> * Fish Meal  Clean and dried fish. Great source of Omega 3 fatty acids and Salmon meal is great for both Omega 3 and 6!


*Derivatives* are the left over bits, and even those cant contains things like feathers.


----------



## james1

AmyWithey said:


> well cybi has finished his first bag of JWB duck and Rice and i have opened the turkey and rice one and he doesnt like it as much as the duck ... fussy little bugger lol.
> 
> I have the lamb one aswell and i saw another one that was a fish one but not bought that yet wasnt sure about it.
> 
> I tried the JWB wet food aswell and cybi wolfed it down but at 60p a packet it would cost a fortune every month!


Just to say - once a food agrees with him dont change from it, I know its a pain having lots of different kibbles youve paid for but if hes got stomach troubles you really want him settled on one alone. Your not supposed to change thier basic kibble anyway really even if they dont have stomach issues (I think it was you that said their dog had the runs?) Just thought id say


----------



## james1

Nonnie said:


> That is incorrect.
> 
> *Derivatives* are the left over bits, and even those cant contains things like feathers.


Id like to add too as Popsy states
"it's worrying that more and more pet food companies are bringing out 'grain-free' dry food, because what they are supplementing the grain with is really high volumes of meat meal"

If meals are listed further down the ingredients list then foods arent packed full of them. Your idea on starches also as being 1% of kibbles - rice is a starch found in most kibbles at quantities ranging from 20 - 50%.


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## joanneframe

I personally feed my dogs on a raw meat and bones diet and have found it has made a great improvement in their coat/teeth/breath, however its not for everyone. The following link does a good evaluation on a large number of dog foods, which you might find of interest

Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble

Joanne


----------



## Kinski

popsy said:


> LucyJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> popsy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to harp on about this, but I;ve just got an email from a pet food co in the US titled "Why we don't use Chicken Meal in our Dry Food" and goes on to say this is NOT meat! it is meat MEAL - ie all the leftover dregs - skin, hair, feather, carcass, made into a powder.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you let us know what company told you this, if it's on a web site somewhere I would be very interested in reading it as I'm sure so would some of the others.
> 
> Terri
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## popsy

yes sure:

Natural Pet Care Products from Halo

their ingredients look great, but I don't like their over reliance on pea protein. When I'm in the US, I use their food and peas really make the dogs fart - a lot! Also, their food is not organic. And as far as I'm concerned an organic pet food is the ONLY guarantee that there's nothing nasty in it as it's been check by the certifying organisation.

But there's lots of interesting info on the site about rendered meat meal...


----------



## victoriaj

my beagle pup arrives in just under 4 weeks and although i will keep her on the food the breeder has her on at first i have looked and looked and looked some more and have decided to try her on whites as it is as good as any of the more expensive brands but around £30 for 15kg and it is all natural ingredients


----------



## james1

popsy said:


> yes sure:
> 
> Natural Pet Care Products from Halo
> 
> their ingredients look great, but I don't like their over reliance on pea protein. When I'm in the US, I use their food and peas really make the dogs fart - a lot! Also, their food is not organic. And as far as I'm concerned an organic pet food is the ONLY guarantee that there's nothing nasty in it as it's been check by the certifying organisation.
> 
> But there's lots of interesting info on the site about rendered meat meal...


just had a look over the website and I couldnt really find information- all that I could find was this whch states "Dry blood meal: An inexpensive source of poor quality protein in some dog and cat foods. It is very indigestible."
Dog and Cat Food Ingredients to Avoid
and this 
Why Doesn't Halo Use Chicken Meal?
which links to 
AAFCO Home Page a control organisation for food regulation.

Are you sure your not confusing agricultural feeds with pet feeds. In the UK a good few years ago there were reports of agricultural animals being back fed rendered dead animals as part of their regular feed routine, this has since been reviewed and is totally apart from the processes used in pet foods. Though yes I do see your concern, this is a totally seperate issue and I cant find anything on the use of decarying animals in pet foods


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## james1

victoriaj said:


> my beagle pup arrives in just under 4 weeks and although i will keep her on the food the breeder has her on at first i have looked and looked and looked some more and have decided to try her on whites as it is as good as any of the more expensive brands but around £30 for 15kg and it is all natural ingredients


ooooh good good the days will drag their feet and the night before picking her up will take forever!! Then all you have to do is suffer a couple of months of sleepless nights --- and things lol

Personally I think Burns mini bites for pups is excellent. It does keep them lean though its highly digestable and a very good puppy kibble. With mine it improved his attention, stopped energy bursts and decreased aggression dramaitcally


----------



## AmyWithey

james1 said:


> Just to say - once a food agrees with him dont change from it, I know its a pain having lots of different kibbles youve paid for but if hes got stomach troubles you really want him settled on one alone. Your not supposed to change thier basic kibble anyway really even if they dont have stomach issues (I think it was you that said their dog had the runs?) Just thought id say


They are all the same brand (i'm sure i said that in my post) Just different flavours and i'm not going to feed him the same flavour for the rest of his life, how would you like it if all you got to eat for the rest of your life was bread and water personally i'd rather drown in a vat of chocolate than live on bread and water for the rest of my life and i dont see why cybi should have to eat the same old same old every day. They are all James wellbeloved so what does it matter if one is duck and rice one is lamb and rice and one is turkey and rice they are basically the same with different meat.


----------



## AmyWithey

oh and cybi had the runs 7 weeks ago when we first brought him home hes bee fine since then so no it wasnt me, I said that he was having humongous solid logs that were a foot long LOL the vet said he's a bit skinny he has an oddly sticky out rib when he bends so he told me to fatten him up a but apart from that my puppy is perfect. 

We also saw a pedigree lab puppy girl and she was twice cybi's size i didt realise how uch smaller he would be being springer x it was so cute though it was puppy love lol they shared kisses in the parking lot and then cybi tried to himp her LOL the owner though it was hilarius!


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## sequeena

AmyWithey said:


> They are all the same brand (i'm sure i said that in my post) Just different flavours and i'm not going to feed him the same flavour for the rest of his life, how would you like it if all you got to eat for the rest of your life was bread and water personally i'd rather drown in a vat of chocolate than live on bread and water for the rest of my life and i dont see why cybi should have to eat the same old same old every day. They are all James wellbeloved so what does it matter if one is duck and rice one is lamb and rice and one is turkey and rice they are basically the same with different meat.


I'm doing the same with my mastiff pup though she's on wainwrights  she just finished the turkey and rice one so now she's on the salmon one  Gives them good variety.


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## victoriaj

james1 said:


> ooooh good good the days will drag their feet and the night before picking her up will take forever!! Then all you have to do is suffer a couple of months of sleepless nights --- and things lol
> 
> Personally I think Burns mini bites for pups is excellent. It does keep them lean though its highly digestable and a very good puppy kibble. With mine it improved his attention, stopped energy bursts and decreased aggression dramaitcally


especially with the clocks going back its now dragging even more!! 
i think it will be trial and error as i have figured by reading lots of posts on here that what is one dogs meat is another dogs poison ... if she doesn't take to the whites i will hopefully find one that she does take to that is made from natural ingredients and will benefit her


----------



## popsy

I just find it all a bit confusing as everyone - absolutely every pet food - declares their ingredients are "natural". Anything can be 'natural' - there's no legal definition, so you just have to read the label really carefully.

My favourite ingredient, which always makes me lol is grape pomace: basically means the pips and stalks of grapes....or tomato pomace - skin and stalks.

I'd just like to see a bit of transparency so it makes it easier to choose a pet food.

Maybe price is a good indicator...my sister feeds her lab on something that looks very posh on the outside - and is 15.00 for a 15kg bag. But at least its honest enough to declare that the ingredients are preserved in BHA and BHV which most dry foods have in... (illegal in the US). BTW Her dog looks terrible and is very smelly!


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## KenDoddsDadsDog

Price isn't really a very good indicator.
For example, Skinners Maintenance is only £15 for 15kg, whereas Bakers is £24 for 15kg. And Pedigree is around £28!


----------



## jessejazza

popsy said:


> I just find it all a bit confusing as everyone - its honest enough to declare that the ingredients are preserved in BHA and BHV which most dry foods have in... (illegal in the US). BTW Her dog looks terrible and is very smelly!


It's BHT and BHA preservatives that were believed to be responsible for cancer and that is why it was banned in the US.


----------



## jessejazza

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Price isn't really a very good indicator.
> For example, Skinners Maintenance is only £15 for 15kg, whereas Bakers is £24 for 15kg. And Pedigree is around £28!


Skinners maintenance is chicken meat content which is cheaper. One of my dogs is allergic to chicken so he's on their Working 23 as it's beef based. When i visited their factory i feel that they have produced quality food compared with the larger concerns who charge more due to higher overheads.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog

We swap between Maintenance and their Duck & Rice each mealtime. Just to give her a bit of variety really.


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## AmyWithey

sequeena said:


> I'm doing the same with my mastiff pup though she's on wainwrights  she just finished the turkey and rice one so now she's on the salmon one  Gives them good variety.


I think it would be cruel to stick them on the same flavour, i'm going to get the salmon one from james wellbeloved it wasnt there when i bought him the other ones but he loves tuna so i think he will like it.


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## dadan

A really cheap way of feeding is on chicken carcusses, although you do need to find a supplier first, we get a box for £5, and there is loads of meat on them, this feeds my six dogs for 3 days (3 BC's, 2 GSD'S and a GSD X BC). The other days in the week they have Burns complete food. I know lots of people say you shouldn't mix food in this way. All my dogs are fit and healthy and live to a good age, remaining fit up to the end, so I am happy with it. They also never have stomach upsets.




.


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## oldDoubletrouble

dadan said:


> A really cheap way of feeding is on chicken carcusses, although you do need to find a supplier first, we get a box for £5, and there is loads of meat on them, this feeds my six dogs for 3 days (3 BC's, 2 GSD'S and a GSD X BC). The other days in the week they have Burns complete food. I know lots of people say you shouldn't mix food in this way. All my dogs are fit and healthy and live to a good age, remaining fit up to the end, so I am happy with it. They also never have stomach upsets.
> 
> .


Your diet sounds great to me. 
Wouldn't mind the chicken carcusses myself!
Burns is a supurb food, Just thought I'd mention Arden Grange is pretty good too and a fair bit cheaper a bag


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## botty

hi switched our cav king charl jack last week from bakers to burns chicken and brown rice food and he likes it and is coat feels a lot softer also is eyes use to get wet and they have been better 
just hope he keeps liking it as he can be fussy


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## JSR

dadan said:


> A really cheap way of feeding is on chicken carcusses, although you do need to find a supplier first, we get a box for £5, and there is loads of meat on them, this feeds my six dogs for 3 days (3 BC's, 2 GSD'S and a GSD X BC). The other days in the week they have Burns complete food. I know lots of people say you shouldn't mix food in this way. All my dogs are fit and healthy and live to a good age, remaining fit up to the end, so I am happy with it. They also never have stomach upsets.
> 
> .


Ohh interesting!! I never thought to try our local chicken factory!! Would save a fortune feeding my lot!!! I mix my dogs diets too, they are mainly raw but they also have Vitalin (cos the old boy hasn't many teeth left and he likes it) and cheap working dog food (£6.50 for 15kg) and those god awful stinky rolls of mushed up meat...hate to think what's in them but it makes fussy eaters eat so they can have it if they want it!!!:smilewinkgrin: Don't think it does them any harm at all, mine are all extreamly fit and healthy with nice shiney coats (well not the rough JRT or the Poodle x but the others are shiney!!)


----------



## sequeena

JSR said:


> Ohh interesting!! I never thought to try our local chicken factory!! Would save a fortune feeding my lot!!! I mix my dogs diets too, they are mainly raw but they also have Vitalin (cos the old boy hasn't many teeth left and he likes it) and cheap working dog food (£6.50 for 15kg) and those *god awful stinky rolls of mushed up meat*...hate to think what's in them but it makes fussy eaters eat so they can have it if they want it!!!:smilewinkgrin: Don't think it does them any harm at all, mine are all extreamly fit and healthy with nice shiney coats (well not the rough JRT or the Poodle x but the others are shiney!!)


You mean webbex?? I have to give that to Candy sometimes as she's so fussy. My god they stink


----------



## alysonandhedley

Hello everyone, new member here! 

This thread is of great interest to me, I have read up to page 9 and will be continuing shortly. I recently got a Yorkie pup, he is gorgeous, 9 weeks old, and came with a supply of Pets at Home puppy food country chicken and veg (dried food with meaty pieces). I dont know if its any good, but of course I am continuing with it as its what he is used to. I have supplemented it with a little scrambled egg which he enjoys, just to build him up a bit.

He isnt my first dog, but I havent had a dog for a few years. My previous dogs just used to get tinned food and biscuits, apart from my last one who tended to be a bit hyper and I tried him on James Wellbeloved and Burns, which he didnt eat that much of, then I ended up with those Nature pouches which he enjoyed.

I have read this thread with interest, and also read a few recommendations for Pero, which on trial offer seemed reasonable, so I sent for one. I have also requested trial packs of James Wellbeloved and Burns. (which will probably end up in some postal strike bag or something!).

Has anyone else raised a small breed pup like a Yorkie? What did you feed him on and how did it go?


----------



## AmyWithey

alysonandhedley said:


> Hello everyone, new member here!
> 
> This thread is of great interest to me, I have read up to page 9 and will be continuing shortly. I recently got a Yorkie pup, he is gorgeous, 9 weeks old, and came with a supply of Pets at Home puppy food country chicken and veg (dried food with meaty pieces). I dont know if its any good, but of course I am continuing with it as its what he is used to. I have supplemented it with a little scrambled egg which he enjoys, just to build him up a bit.
> 
> He isnt my first dog, but I havent had a dog for a few years. My previous dogs just used to get tinned food and biscuits, apart from my last one who tended to be a bit hyper and I tried him on James Wellbeloved and Burns, which he didnt eat that much of, then I ended up with those Nature pouches which he enjoyed.
> 
> I have read this thread with interest, and also read a few recommendations for Pero, which on trial offer seemed reasonable, so I sent for one. I have also requested trial packs of James Wellbeloved and Burns. (which will probably end up in some postal strike bag or something!).
> 
> Has anyone else raised a small breed pup like a Yorkie? What did you feed him on and how did it go?


My mum has a peakingese and he is 13(and usually eats cat food LOL) - he had never had dry food until i brought my puppy home and we left a couple of buiscuits of the [email protected] food there when we were still giving it to my puppy Cybi (now on james wellbeloved) and he loved it my mum was shocked she didnt think little dogs would eat dry food.

my nanna has yorkie's and she feeds them james wellbeloved now and they love it.


----------



## alysonandhedley

I have read a little about barf, but dont think its for us. I think its great to give your dog real food, and I have thought of giving ours real meat (but cooked) but there is no way I would ever give a dog a chicken carcass. Dont give dogs poultry bones was something drummed into me from an early age and I still wouldnt risk it. I dont know what I would do if anything happened to my pet because I had fed it incorrectly. I still believe intestinal perforation can occur through chicken bones.


----------



## LucyJ

It's cooked chicken bones that can cause a problem, I have fed raw chicken, carcuss and wings for many years to large and small dogs alike with no problem.

But if you are nervous best to stick to lamb and beef bones.


----------



## alysonandhedley

LucyJ said:


> It's cooked chicken bones that can cause a problem, I have fed raw chicken, carcuss and wings for many years to large and small dogs alike with no problem.
> 
> But if you are nervous best to stick to lamb and beef bones.


Arent the bones sharp then when they are raw? Obviously its not something you really see yourself as the only chicken I buy is either a whole chicken to roast (in which case I dont look or cut the bones) or chicken breasts for recipes etc. I know how if you cook a leg of lamb the bones get quite brittle when cooked, but look quite solid when raw. Does the dog grind the bones in his mouth or swallow them whole?


----------



## chestersmum

Hi

The bones are less likely to splinter if they are fed raw. I give one to chester a couple of times a week to keep his teeth clean


----------



## mistress maker

My GSD pup came home to me with a large bag of Arden Grange , the breeder swears by it ..............but he was having really stink poos and quite runny too ( he was also going to the loo LOADS )

When I mentioned this to the vet he said to try Hill Science .............

So I have changed and Fenris is now on that (puppy for large breeds) ............The vet gave me a couple of sample bags to try first before I bought some .He loves it and his bowels have settled really well . (not as smelly and defo more solid and only 3 times per day - normally an hour after he has eaten )

I didn,t buy it from the vet though as our local Pet Warehouse had the sacks on special for £29.99 ..............so bought 5 sacks !!Let,s hope he doesn,t get bored with it 

Rosie our mongrel who is a rescue dog will ONLY eat Bakers dog food or cooked pasta ! So that is a bit of a nightmare at feeding time ............but she has to eat something !(oh she is partial to scraps too but I think this comes from her having to scavenge for food when she was a 'street dog'........)

The only problem I have is that Harley Dude (HD) likes Fen's food too hmy:


----------



## mistress maker

just a quick question ...................will I be able to give a raw bone to Fenris? .........he will be 12 weeks on Monday coming


----------



## slakey

A little bit of a decision here.
I can either go with CSJ Lamb with rice (wheat & gluten free) £19

*INGREDIENTS*
Lamb Meal (min 26%), Maize, Oats, Rice (min 6%), De-hulled Soya Bean, Chicken Fat, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Minerals, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Yeast, Minerals & Vitamins - stabilised with EEC permitted anti-oxidants, Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin C and Rosemary Extract.

Or I could go with Skinners Lamb & Rice £25.95

*INGREDIENTS*
Whole rice (40%), lamb meat meal (25%), barley, chicken fat, linseed, vitamins and minerals, rosemary oil, culinary herb mix.

Which is the better food between them?

I'm currently paying £26.49 for Beta Adult, and would I be able to feed Milo on adult food yet? He's coming up for 6 months


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## james1

Out of those 2 id go with the skinners, I do know a lot of people that use CSJ and say its very good, i just dont like the maize in it. Rice and Barley is much better digested


----------



## Kelly27

I feed 3 of my 4 on Wagg original compete i get 2 x 15 kg bags for less than £20 out of asdas, they were only wagg puppy when younger so have always been on it and i havent had any problems with it lol
Though 1 of our 4 is fussy and he prefers tin and mixer


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## jessejazza

alysonandhedley said:


> Arent the bones sharp then when they are raw? Obviously its not something you really see yourself as the only chicken I buy is either a whole chicken to roast (in which case I dont look or cut the bones) or chicken breasts for recipes etc. I know how if you cook a leg of lamb the bones get quite brittle when cooked, but look quite solid when raw. Does the dog grind the bones in his mouth or swallow them whole?


Yes raw chicken bones are sharp. BUT a dogs gut has different digestive juices which are able to break down bone. My sister fed raw meaty bone from a year old to her dog - just grunched up chicken bone quite happily so did my grey'd when i tried. There was never a problem but as a previous poster said it is possible to get intestinal perforation if a dog hasn't got used to bone. Bit like a human deciding to not wear shoes, it would take sometime for your feed to harden - whereas in Africa they have always used bare feet. Start raw off on a young dog and they'll be fine. One never feeds cooked bone as they are brittle and splinter.

The claim that raw meaty bone will help avoid periodental and related disease isn't quite true which is the claim in Tom Lonsdale's book.

The real requirement is to get your dog to gnaw on a bone [raw marrow bone about the size of their head is a reasonable guide]. That will keep their teeth healthy from the front to rear - that is natural instinct.

One of my dogs won't touch bone; giving a plate bone and getting him to tear off the meat didn't help his teeth [and can't have chicken as he seems to have an allergy to it]. The other loves bones and so isn't a problem - but she's on dry complete now as well.

I liked feeding mine meat and mixer but i've changed to dry complete due to the one not liking bone. All dogs vary on dental health like humans. A friends whippet has always been fed on dry complete and doesn't go near bone and her teeth are perfectly clean.

The larger the kibble the more action the jaw does which i think helps - smaller kibble can almost be gulped down. I chose skinners Ruff & Ready as they kindly delivered free a 3 kg to try - helps only living 5 miles from them but very generous all the same. It is virtually the same as their Muesli mix and has kibble of varying size which helps crunching.


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## alysonandhedley

Thanks for the advice. At what age can marrow bones be started? I seem to remember diarrhoea when my last dog had one though. Do they make the bowels loose?


----------



## jessejazza

alysonandhedley said:


> Thanks for the advice. At what age can marrow bones be started? I seem to remember diarrhoea when my last dog had one though. Do they make the bowels loose?


With all our guide dog pups we started them on bones as soon as they wanted to gnaw. I have heard some say that one shouldn't give bone to dogs as their teeth can break - i can't believe that more likely as they are losing puppy teeth they shed them. I have never heard of any problems feeding dogs a good sized knuckle bone - if they had an allergy to marrow one could just scrap the majority out. As a dog gnaws on a bone a little is bitten off and swallowed and comes out white in #2... usually makes them a little too hard which helps the anal glands. Ideally one doesn't give them a bone for much longer than an hour and it is necessary to check that they are not getting over enthusiastic.

With a knuckle bone they should start on the cartiledge which is softer and once chewed off the knuckle is a rough surface which is what is used to clean the plaque off teeth.

Try a bone again scrapping out the marrow in the end.


----------



## alysonandhedley

Thanks for the advice. Will pop to butcher to see if he can sort me something soon.

Also a big thanks to whoever recommended PERO. He loves it. I tried mixing it in with his other food which he would only eat a bit of and then I had to soak it. When I gave him Pero in the mix he ate all the pero, left the pets at home puppy food and looked round for more pero. His bowels were a little loose this morning, no doubt due to the changeover, but nothing major, not runny really. Hope he will firm up soon because its nice to see him eat it all up and enjoy it. The kibbles are just the right size for him too. I was surprised that the first ingredient was extruded cereal though, and not meat, I didnt remember this from the website.


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## jacquie sullivan

hi

dry food is not really good, because in the past with cats it caused kidney, the best is wet food, i.e pet mince plus wholemeal mixer adult dogs 1lb a day, some butchers do pet mince which has a mixture of offal and other bits, you then pop it in the microwave 14mins as raw can cause worms


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## alysonandhedley

Is there any evidence it causes kidney problems in dogs? Its so widely used that surely it shouldnt?


----------



## Lyceum

Can anyone give me a few names of good dry foods for dogs with a sensitive stomach?

One of my dogs seems to have lose stools a few times a week so the vet has suggested changing his food to a sensitive one before I start shelling out for expensive tests and such (Does insurance cover these?).

He's currently on Arden Grange puppy food. I have spoken to the fantastically helpfull nutrutional adviser at Arden Grange who recommends their seisitive range, but to be honest at almost £50 a bag, I can't really afford it. I am lothed to change him from AG, but I obviously need to do whats best for my dog.

So if someone could give me a few names of dry foods with decent sensitive ranges I'd be greatly appreciative.

P.S. He's already been on JWB and switched to AG because I couldn't stand the wind any longer. So obviously don't want him back on JWB.


----------



## james1

would love to help but ive never experienced sensitive stomachs, id dismiss the claims about dry food and detriment to dogs heath - just to say 

edit:
this has been recommended in antoher thread
Burgess Supadog Lamb & Rice for sensitive stomachs. 

its maize, wheat and gluten free, has a decent amount of lamb in and is 20% protein which is just on average


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## Jasper's Bloke

I used the puppy food from Fish4Dogs and it was fantastic, it gave Jasper an incredible coat, plenty of vitality and compared to many other 'natural' foods by better known makers, its not actually that expensive (£30-£35 for 12kg). When you also take into account that you need to feed less of a higher quality food it becomes even cheaper, works out to less than a £1 per day for me.

He has had a brief spell on JWB Junior but that did not seem to agree with him so he is going back onto the fish, but the adult version this time. The best thing about this stuff is that it doesn't take me 10 minutes to read through the ingredients list, and the two most important things make up 80% of the food. In both the salmon and cod versions the ingredients are - Fresh Fish 30.5%, Potato 30.5%, Herring Meal 21.4%, Salmon Oil 7.6%, Beet Fibre 6.4%, Brewers Yeast 2.1%, Minerals 0.8%, Vitamins 0.7%.

Now that seems to be about the simplest and most straightforward commercial food I have been able to find.

Unless anyone knows any different?


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## jessejazza

Lyceum said:


> Can anyone give me a few names of good dry foods for dogs with a sensitive stomach?


Most manufacturers do a sensitive diet. I'd say look at some of the smaller manufacturers - Skinners, Chudley, CSJ, Whites there's loads of them.


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## nellie_dean

Lyceum said:


> Can anyone give me a few names of good dry foods for dogs with a sensitive stomach?


There are a few good 'sensitive' diets, but I did notice that Whites Premium have a new one out (Light and Sensitive) which is based on Salmon and Rice and looks to fit the bill. (check it out on www.pet-pantry.co.uk)

The main thing if you have an episode of digestive upset is not to suddenly switch foods. It's best to just feed a little chicken and cooked rice (or fish) for a few days to give the system a rest, and then gradually introduce the pet food back into the diet.


----------



## slakey

Zeus has really smell wind, would I need to get him sensitive stomach dry food?


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## Jasper's Bloke

slakey said:


> Zeus has really smell wind, would I need to get him sensitive stomach dry food?


What is he fed on now? How long has he been fed on it? How long has his stomach been upset?


----------



## slakey

Well I used to feed him on Bakers, but I switched over to Beta Adult and that's been about a month or month and a half he's been on that.

His poo's are fine I think :s but he just has a fair bit of wind and really smells, so would that classify him to having a sensitive stomach?


----------



## Lyceum

nellie_dean said:


> There are a few good 'sensitive' diets, but I did notice that Whites Premium have a new one out (Light and Sensitive) which is based on Salmon and Rice and looks to fit the bill. (check it out on www.pet-pantry.co.uk)
> 
> The main thing if you have an episode of digestive upset is not to suddenly switch foods. It's best to just feed a little chicken and cooked rice (or fish) for a few days to give the system a rest, and then gradually introduce the pet food back into the diet.


Thanks, that's what I have been doing. Thankfully we've only had to do this the once. And whatever food I decide to go with I'll gradually change him over.

Thanks for all the recommendations everyone. I'll check them out.


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## Jasper's Bloke

slakey said:


> Well I used to feed him on Bakers, but I switched over to Beta Adult and that's been about a month or month and a half he's been on that.
> 
> His poo's are fine I think :s but he just has a fair bit of wind and really smells, so would that classify him to having a sensitive stomach?


After a month he should be well settled on his new diet and if he has had no problems up to now it's probably not his feed that's causing the wind. If his poo is ok and this flatulence has come on suddenly it's more likely to be something else he has eaten rataher than a sensitive tummy. Has he had anything else to eat recently, chews, different treats or anything like that? He may also of picked up something whilst out and about. Cut out everything but his main food for a few days and see if it clears, keep back a handful of each meal to use in place of treats and make sure he has fresh water changed regularly.


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## alysonandhedley

slakey said:


> Zeus has really smell wind, would I need to get him sensitive stomach dry food?


The food I use (PERO) has ingredients in it which prevent nasty smells and they are natural plant extracts. I presume other foods have these in.

I have just changed Hedley from pets at home to Pero (adding gradually) and his bowels have been a bit loose, but I discussed this with the vet and he said it was just whilst he gets used to the new food. He gave me some tablets to crush up to firm his stools.

http://www.pero-petfood.co.uk/images/stories/peropdfs/PERO_PUPPY_NUTRITIONAL_DATA_SHEET.pdf


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## jacquie sullivan

hi again done some research if you look on ingredients protien shld be 90percent
any less in the long term dogs will become poorly as they are carnivore and not omnivores, really dry dog food shld not hve a high cereal


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## james1

your never going to find a food with 90% protien simply because all foods contain sugars, fats etc. It depends on the quality of the protien involved really - those from meat are good - those from other souurces dont really count


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## alysonandhedley

I thought the recommendation for a dried food was around 30 per cent protein. There is a theory that protein should come first in the list of ingredients, but there is a way of fiddling this by using different kinds of cereals, so that is no longer a good way of doing it.

The previous poster has a good point about the quality of the protein - the sort of meat that goes into it matters. But what is also a good point is ......... does your dog actually eat it. You have to find one that has a good balance of ingredients of good quality, but also your dog has to like it too. It also has to suit his digestion. There are so many variables arent there?

What I would like to hear from is someone whose dog has lived to a ripe old age without illness and then know what they were fed on. My mother in laws poodle was 17 when he died and she fed him on liver which she cooked herself, but I wouldnt go down this route as the dog had chronic bad breath and rotten teeth.


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## james1

What I am saying is a 90% protien food doesnt exist. And its usually a meat product that you look for in the ingredients as coming first. Many foods contain protien so it being high on the list doesnt mean its a good food, it simply means that therse is an ingredient boosting it. If meat is listed high on the ingredients - its good protien the dog can use.


----------



## Lyceum

alysonandhedley said:


> What I would like to hear from is someone whose dog has lived to a ripe old age without illness and then know what they were fed on. My mother in laws poodle was 17 when he died and she fed him on liver which she cooked herself, but I wouldnt go down this route as the dog had chronic bad breath and rotten teeth.


My last dog was almost twenty when she died. In twenty years she had one ear infection, that's all, only time she went the vet was check ups and boosters. I don't even remember her ever having fleas. Sadly she was diagnosed with cancer, still she bounced around like a six month old until the day before she died.

She was fed on anything and everything, because until I got my new dog I had no idea about the pitfalls of pet food. So she was generally fed whatever was on offer when I was buying. Mixture of wet and dry food. Chappie, butchers, pedigree, wagg, you name it, all the stuff that I now wouldn't dream of giving my dog.

Still, must have done something right.


----------



## Dirky47

Well, as what is saying at the other threads, we should not consult our dog foods to a vet. Maybe we can ask to a Nutritionists. What can you say about this?


----------



## nellie_dean

alysonandhedley said:


> I thought the recommendation for a dried food was around 30 per cent protein.


30% is high for an adult food (dried) and perceived wisdom these days is that around 20% is perfectly adequate. The rest of the recipe should be of highly digestible ingredients (rice ideally, though maize and barley are also quite digestible)


----------



## jacquie sullivan

hi

i will be never convinced as i believe you should feed dogs as natural as poss, the dry food industry was created for convenience and is now worth billions of pounds, also if peoples dogs have sensitive tums could that be because of previous product, have you seen how dry food when it becomes wet bulks out, this means that the body has to get rid of it which results in mountains of poo my dogs poos are 1 small mound, as the body is able to take as much goodness from natural feeding i had a afghan who lived to 16 years but she would only eat tripe and pasta, which wasnt very convenient as tripe is very smelly, but tried her on beef chicken etc and in the end gave her tripe, it has a high potassium level but she would eat scraps so i think she was getting a balanced diet


----------



## alysonandhedley

Im still seriously confused about dog foods. 

My free samples arrived today from Burns but they werent Burns but Luath's and Robbies which looks very interesting, like meat and rice which you add hot water to. I am still changing Hedley over to Pero though and Im a bit concerned that his poos are greeny grey and slightly sloppy.


----------



## james1

maize isnt easily digested but rice and barley are


----------



## Lyceum

jacquie sullivan said:


> hi
> 
> i will be never convinced as i believe you should feed dogs as natural as poss, the dry food industry was created for convenience and is now worth billions of pounds, also if peoples dogs have sensitive tums could that be because of previous product, have you seen how dry food when it becomes wet bulks out, this means that the body has to get rid of it which results in mountains of poo my dogs poos are 1 small mound, as the body is able to take as much goodness from natural feeding i had a afghan who lived to 16 years but she would only eat tripe and pasta, which wasnt very convenient as tripe is very smelly, but tried her on beef chicken etc and in the end gave her tripe, it has a high potassium level but she would eat scraps so i think she was getting a balanced diet


Not all dried foods bulk out when left in water. The quality ones don't. I feed my dogs arden grange and even after soaking it barely bulks out. A friend feeds Orijen and that doesn't expand all, because the ingredients are so good. Only the foods like bakers, pedigree etc, which are 95% fillers will expand when left in water.


----------



## slakey

That Pero food looks good, but unsure on some ingredients listed.

Extruded Cereals?

At the minute I'm looking at the Pero Gold

*Pero Gold Ingredients:*
Extruded Cereals, Meat Products, Pasta, Animal Fats, Fishmeal, Vegetable Oils, Vitamins and Minerals, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12, Biotin, Folic Acid, Nicotinic Acid (Niacin), Pantothenic Acid from Calcium Pantothenate, Deoderase - a natural extract from the yucca plant to aid in neutralising offensive odors

*Pero Gold Typical Analysis*
Protein: 20%
Oil: 5.5%
Fibre: 3.25%
Ash: 10%
Vitamin A: 8,000 IU/Kg
Vitamin D3: 1,200 IU/Kg
Vitamin E: 80 IU/Kg
(alpha tocopherol)
Copper: 25 mg/Kg
(as cupric sulphate)


----------



## Kinski

james1 said:


> maize isnt easily digested but rice and barley are


They are but dogs still don't need them and as you know are used as cheap fillers



Lyceum said:


> Not all dried foods bulk out when left in water. The quality ones don't. I feed my dogs arden grange and even after soaking it barely bulks out. A friend feeds Orijen and that doesn't expand all, because the ingredients are so good. Only the foods like bakers, pedigree etc, which are 95% fillers will expand when left in water.


I feed Orijen and I left some in warm water for ages to see what happened to it, it got a wee bit sloppy around the edges but it didn't expand at all.

Terri


----------



## shazza1969

Lyceum said:


> Can anyone give me a few names of good dry foods for dogs with a sensitive stomach?
> 
> One of my dogs seems to have lose stools a few times a week so the vet has suggested changing his food to a sensitive one before I start shelling out for expensive tests and such (Does insurance cover these?).
> 
> He's currently on Arden Grange puppy food. I have spoken to the fantastically helpfull nutrutional adviser at Arden Grange who recommends their seisitive range, but to be honest at almost £50 a bag, I can't really afford it. I am lothed to change him from AG, but I obviously need to do whats best for my dog.
> 
> So if someone could give me a few names of dry foods with decent sensitive ranges I'd be greatly appreciative.
> 
> P.S. He's already been on JWB and switched to AG because I couldn't stand the wind any longer. So obviously don't want him back on JWB.


I've been told Oscars do a dog food for sensitive stomachs My dogs are on Oscars Pinnacle Plus it has the added ingredients for joints and they love it they a whole range of foods and their universal is cheaper and far better than the likes of Pedigree and Barking Bakers!!! Would not touch tinned/pouches at all at least 75% is water so basically you are buying a can of water


----------



## shazza1969

I've been told Oscars do a dog food for sensitive stomachs My dogs are on Oscars Pinnacle Plus it has the added ingredients for joints and they love it they a whole range of foods and their universal is cheaper and far better than the likes of Pedigree and Barking Bakers!!! Would not touch tinned/pouches at all at least 75% is water so basically you are buying a can of water


----------



## Lyceum

Just has a look at the Oscars web site, it does seem good stuff. But it's around the same price as burns, which I know is very well recommended, so I'd probaly give that a try before trying oscars. Thanks for the tip though.


----------



## alysonandhedley

slakey said:


> That Pero food looks good, but unsure on some ingredients listed.
> 
> Extruded Cereals?
> 
> At the minute I'm looking at the Pero Gold
> 
> *Pero Gold Ingredients:*
> Extruded Cereals, Meat Products, Pasta, Animal Fats, Fishmeal, Vegetable Oils, Vitamins and Minerals, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12, Biotin, Folic Acid, Nicotinic Acid (Niacin), Pantothenic Acid from Calcium Pantothenate, Deoderase - a natural extract from the yucca plant to aid in neutralising offensive odors
> 
> *Pero Gold Typical Analysis*
> Protein: 20%
> Oil: 5.5%
> Fibre: 3.25%
> Ash: 10%
> Vitamin A: 8,000 IU/Kg
> Vitamin D3: 1,200 IU/Kg
> Vitamin E: 80 IU/Kg
> (alpha tocopherol)
> Copper: 25 mg/Kg
> (as cupric sulphate)


I havent found out which cereals are extruded either!!! Same with the puppy food. I think I will write to them. What is ash also? I have noticed petfood has ash in, whats that for? is it a filler or is it for digestion? Or is it potassium?

Hedley's poos have firmed up a bit but are still dark greeny grey. I think I might have had this with one of our other dogs when they were on dry food either James W or Burns maybe. It was a premium one.


----------



## newbienew

Debbie said:


> You already know mine Garry....but...
> Arden Grange at £36 and Royal Canin which I get at £26 ish
> Every food suits a dog better than another.....its all down to what the dog looks good on and prefers.....
> I have had Purina Large Breed and thats a good one too - my adult DDB male just got bored of it LOL Like he does with every food - so I swap between a few to keep him eating


I think you might be paying through the nose for your royal canin. I get mine from royal canin dog food, dry food from The Giant Pet Store and I get my delivery free


----------



## hutch6

Just ordered from CSJ which is mean to be extremely good stuff so we'll see what happens.


----------



## cavmad

I have just started to feed my mob on Arden Grange or Skinners Duck and Rice depending on funds.Iused to feed CSJ but found that my old Leonberger was always hungry on it and their coats were dry and harsh.Since changing Kez 17yr old collie has stopped having little accidents when excited and Indie who is 13yr old Leonberger has stopped counter surfing.Ican also feed all the dogs the same as i have a couple of CKCS who get colitis but havent had to go to the vets since the change of food


----------



## alysonandhedley

I have received samples today of Arden Grange puppy food and Burns (the real burns not Robbies or Luaths). Hedley really liked Arden Grange but there doesnt seem to be a stockist nearby.

I have noticed that if you use mail order it can be quite costly for postage unless you spend quite a bit. I dont want to buy huge quantities until I have found the food that really suits him. 


Anyone found a cheap mail order/delivery for Arden Grange?


----------



## dimkaz

just to delete the daily notification,,,


----------



## nellie_dean

alysonandhedley said:


> Anyone found a cheap mail order/delivery for Arden Grange?


If you want cheap Arden Grange and can buy a couple of bags at a time then GJW Titmuss do a good deal at 2 x 15kg Lamb for £51.98 (which I make just under £26 a bag)


----------



## alysonandhedley

nellie_dean said:


> If you want cheap Arden Grange and can buy a couple of bags at a time then GJW Titmuss do a good deal at 2 x 15kg Lamb for £51.98 (which I make just under £26 a bag)


Thanks, for a bigger older dog that might be a good idea.

But I have a small yorkie pup and dont want to be left with an excess. I will have to travel to find a stockist, but it may be cheaper to do this than mail order.

I have to report though, we only started giving him Arden Grange yesterday and Im pleased to report that this morning we actually have BROWN POO!! I will be keeping him on this.


----------



## Lyceum

I've spoken to the nutritional advisers at burns, skinners, CSJ and arden grange and I think I've narrowed it down to two foods. I'm going to put him on either:

Arden Grange lamb and rice 
Skinners duck and rice

Just looking for a few opinions on which to go for, hopefully from people with dogs on these fod.


----------



## mollymo

Hi, i have used both AG and skinners and my choice is skinners duck and rice.
My young golden took a long time to put on weight and condition up.
When i started using skinners she improved greatly.
I would recommend this food. I have another golden pup who i will be putting on skinners asap.


----------



## alysonandhedley

That Arden Grange makes his poos rather smelly and he keeps trumping. Hoping this will settle.


----------



## slakey

When is it advisable to put Milo onto adult dry food?

He's now 6 months, but a man at one of our pet shops said, if you've got a male lab you want to keep him on the puppy food for as long as it says on the bag, as it could affect his growth if you don't.

But I've heard a lot of owners saying they change their dog over to adult food when they're 6 months old.


----------



## alysonandhedley

bullbreeds said:


> £9.99 (Im not joking) at pets at home (dont know if you have that store near you). Its really good value and the nutrient content is very good.
> I'll be branded the cheap backyard breeder now!


Do Pets at Home really sell Pero?


----------



## Paul28

I'm currently feeding my puppy Orijen Sixfish.

Dog foods which contains meat like (beef meat, lamb meat, chicken meat) on their 1st three ingredients are better among others which don't. Grain free is way much better too.


----------



## Dirky47

NEver feed dogs with a crab meats. Never.! It may cause rashes to your dogs.


----------



## cavmad

I have looked around and found that Seapets have the Skinners Duck and rice for£19.75 still it has gone up else where and that NetPet shop does free delivery on all Arden Grange and that PedMeds sometimes have offers on AG last month they did it for £22.75 a sack so i stocked up.If anyone else has found cheaper please post as with 12 dogs most cavs i need to find the cheapest suppliers of these 2 feeds


----------



## Lyceum

Thanks. I'll go with the skinners then. Now just need to find an online stockist. My local shop can order it in but charge £34.


----------



## alysonandhedley

This is the problem isnt it? You find an ideal food and you cant get it locally. Paying delivery really jacks up the price if you only want small amounts at first. I sometimes wish all the big supermarket chains carried more of the premium foods. Twould make life easier.


----------



## popsy

Paul28 said:


> Dog foods which contains meat like (beef meat, lamb meat, chicken meat) on their 1st three ingredients are better among others which don't. Grain free is way much better too.


No no no!! I've posted about this earlier. Grain free dry food is not much better! Something cooked up in a rendering plant and no one knows what the long term effects are. Meal meal is replacing grain here and it is so much worse. Meat meal is a tar left over by boiling chicken carcasses, feathers, beaks etc and then dried into a powder. This is definitely not better than rice or oats - how can it be? If you look at the protein levels of grain free dry food they are toxically high and so is the fat level. Protein should be around 20% and fat 10% max.

There is a world of difference between fresh meat and meat meal.

However most dry foods are a combo of meat meal and wheat - neither is good. Best to feed a small amount of dry and look around for a good quality wet food.


----------



## LucyJ

popsy said:


> No no no!! I've posted about this earlier. Grain free dry food is like frankenstein's monster! Something cooked up in a lab and no one knows what the long term effects are. Meal meal is replacing grain here and it is SO much worse. Meat meal is a tar left over by boiling chicken carcasses, feathers, beaks etc and then dried into a powder. This is definitely not better than rice or oats - how can it be? If you look at the protein levels of grain free dry food they are toxically high and so is the fat level. Protein should be around 20% and fat 10% max.
> 
> There is a world of difference between fresh meat and meat meal.
> 
> However most dry foods are a combo of meat meal and wheat - neither is good. Best to feed a small amount of dry and look around for a good quality wet food.


Popsy, where on earth do you get this information from? It's basically untrue and if you contact the better producers they will normally give you the breakdown of how the food is made.
Orijen even have the suppliers of the ingredients on their website I'm sure some other smaller producers will provide the same if asked.

Orijen


----------



## james1

LucyJ said:


> Popsy, where on earth do you get this information from? It's basically untrue and if you contact the better producers they will normally give you the breakdown of how the food is made.
> Orijen even have the suppliers of the ingredients on their website I'm sure some other smaller producers will provide the same if asked.
> 
> Orijen


Id have to support this in regard to Popsy.

The member always seems to come and go and gives entirely the wrong information. Disregard the comments from Popsy it seems they dont know what they are talking about


----------



## Nonnie

popsy said:


> Meal meal is replacing grain here and it is SO much worse. Meat meal is a tar left over by boiling chicken carcasses, feathers, beaks etc and then dried into a powder. .


No it isnt, and you have had this pointed out numerous times.

I can only assume you work for/own the company that you first advertised, and are trying to cause panic and fear by claming people are feeding their dogs complete rubbish, which couldnt be further from the truth.


----------



## nellie_dean

popsy said:


> However most dry foods are a combo of meat meal and wheat - neither is good. Best to feed a small amount of dry and look around for a good quality wet food.


Most good quality (and certainly the more natural) dry food now is in fact wheat free, unless you're buying at the cheap end of the market.

If you're buying wet food then you're basically paying top whack for water. Most of the meat in wet foods is reformed from the same source as the meat meal that's used in dry food. The meat proteins are cooked up with whatever it takes to get them looking like luncheon meat and then chopped up into pieces (traditionally this was done with soya isolates or polyphosphates). You don't see the ingredients used to do this listed because the regulations don't require it if the chunks are added as a separate ingredient, they are classified as 'processing aids'

So I wouldn't be too keen on championing chunky meat in gravy wet foods - they're a lot more high tech than they look......... but then so are the equivalent human foods (and I speak as a former food technologist!)


----------



## popsy

james1 said:


> Id have to support this in regard to Popsy.
> 
> The member always seems to come and go and gives entirely the wrong information. Disregard the comments from Popsy it seems they dont know what they are talking about


I rarely feed dry food as I can't find one I'm completely happy with. I'm assuming this thread is being policed by the pet food brigade as there is a lot of defensiveness going on here. A forum is a debate about what various people think about what they feed their pets. I've just moved over here form the US and just because I am highlighting what is common knowledge in the US does not mean I "do not know what I am talking about".

Making a dry food full of meat meal is what every pet food company does. So of course you guys are going to defend it. But it really is worth considering how the meal is made and what it is made from.

So many people feed their dogs on dry food only - which may be convenient but it is not the only way of feeding them.


----------



## Nonnie

popsy said:


> I rarely feed dry food as I can't find one I'm completely happy with. I'm assuming this thread is being policed by the pet food brigade as there is a lot of defensiveness going on here. A forum is a debate about what various people think about what they feed their pets. I've just moved over here form the US and just because I am highlighting what is common knowledge in the US does not mean I "do not know what I am talking about".
> 
> Making a dry food full of meat meal is what every pet food company does. So of course you guys are going to defend it. But it really is worth considering how the meal is made and what it is made from.
> 
> So many people feed their dogs on dry food only - which may be convenient but it is not the only way of feeding them.


Maybe you should research UK dog feeds then. Meat meal here obviously isnt the same as US meat meal as you keep going on about feathers and beaks which is INCORRECT.


----------



## victoriaj

i haveto say that i have just bought orijen for my pup when she arrives soon and i couldn't be happier with the ingredients and what is in it, it is a very good dry dog food without a beak or feather in sight :thumbup1:


----------



## lady_r0gue

nellie_dean said:


> Most good quality (and certainly the more natural) dry food now is in fact wheat free, unless you're buying at the cheap end of the market.


Not trying to argue with you Nellie as I agree with most of your sentiments - but I have been trying to find wheat free dry food for my dog (he currently has tinned food or raw for breakfast and measured dry food throughout the day) and have found it nigh on impossible to source dry food from supermarkets without wheat! Literally NONE of the dry foods on sale in Morrisons were without wheat. I was particularly disappointed with the Hi-Life (moist) dry food for dogs - having trusted the brand to a certain extent for my cats, and being in a rush I quickly grabbed a packet and was disappointed to discover that it not only has wheat as the second ingredient but also contains GM Soya! I fed him it anyway and thought his coat looked awful and his poos were enormous! 
I haven't been told that my dog is allergic to wheat but I decided to cut it out to see whether the gluten free diet improved his all-over health - and it has paid dividends. Since switching to Burns Alert (which I think is extremely reasonable when buying the 15kg bag for about £35 incl delivery - it's VAT free as it's technically for working dogs - plus I need to feed him 40g less per day than of other brands) I have found that his poos are literally half the size (great considering my dog poo bags used to be overflowing and I usually needed two!). It's suitable for seniors and low in fat which was a requirement, his coat is gorgeous and he has certainly lost the excess weight and is looking like my slinky dog again. In addition to the obvious (almost instantaneous) improvement to my dog's health I also like the fact that it's made in the UK and is aproved by PETA.
Sorry to keep on raving about it; (I don't work for Burns I promise) it's just that this is a mammoth thread so thought I'd pipe up again


----------



## james1

popsy said:


> I rarely feed dry food as I can't find one I'm completely happy with. I'm assuming this thread is being policed by the pet food brigade as there is a lot of defensiveness going on here. A forum is a debate about what various people think about what they feed their pets. I've just moved over here form the US and just because I am highlighting what is common knowledge in the US does not mean I "do not know what I am talking about".
> 
> Making a dry food full of meat meal is what every pet food company does. So of course you guys are going to defend it. But it really is worth considering how the meal is made and what it is made from.
> 
> So many people feed their dogs on dry food only - which may be convenient but it is not the only way of feeding them.


The only policing going on is the policing of good information, this isnt a debate - its the passing on of good knowledge which you dont seem able to give. There are many excellent kibbles and people are allowed their choice, the debate ends there.
What you are doing however is giving broken bits of information stating them as facts when it is really just misguided opinion (no disrespect). If you do a bit more research into foods youll realise you are scaring yourself and others for no reason whatsoever.
The web sites you have given in previous posts to support your ideas have all been questioned - as reagards the content of meal you talk about; agricultural feeds are entirely different from Pet foods and laws have been changed on them (quite a while ago now) anyway what with the BSE pandemic. 
You are here to push a very expensive food by scaring people into believing that their foods are bad - this is entirely wrong and you are not doing yourself any favours in gaining interest for it.
You should do some updated reseach and youll find things have changed - not that they have needed to or changed that much really.

edit: And nobody is disputing a good BARF diet or ever has. Its simply other factors that stops people from doing it


----------



## Nonnie

lady_r0gue said:


> Not trying to argue with you Nellie as I agree with most of your sentiments - but I have been trying to find wheat free dry food for my dog (he currently has tinned food or raw for breakfast and measured dry food throughout the day) and have found it nigh on impossible to source dry food from supermarkets without wheat! Literally NONE of the dry foods on sale in Morrisons were without wheat. I was particularly disappointed with the Hi-Life (moist) dry food for dogs - having trusted the brand to a certain extent for my cats, and being in a rush I quickly grabbed a packet and was disappointed to discover that it not only has wheat as the second ingredient but also contains GM Soya! I fed him it anyway and thought his coat looked awful and his poos were enormous!
> I haven't been told that my dog is allergic to wheat but I decided to cut it out to see whether the gluten free diet improved his all-over health - and it has paid dividends. Since switching to Burns Alert (which I think is extremely reasonable when buying the 15kg bag for about £35 incl delivery - it's VAT free as it's technically for working dogs - plus I need to feed him 40g less per day than of other brands) I have found that his poos are literally half the size (great considering my dog poo bags used to be overflowing and I usually needed two!). It's suitable for seniors and low in fat which was a requirement, his coat is gorgeous and he has certainly lost the excess weight and is looking like my slinky dog again. In addition to the obvious (almost instantaneous) improvement to my dog's health I also like the fact that it's made in the UK and is aproved by PETA.
> Sorry to keep on raving about it; (I don't work for Burns I promise) it's just that this is a mammoth thread so thought I'd pipe up again


I believe that certain pet food companies will only allow their products to be sold in petshops and dont allow supermarkets to stock them. Ive never seen a decent food in a supermarket, its all the cheap crap full of derivatives and colourings.

Obviously this doesnt help if you dont have a local petshop. I buy my feed online as the two petshops i have locally dont stock it.


----------



## james1

lady_r0gue said:


> Not trying to argue with you Nellie as I agree with most of your sentiments - but I have been trying to find wheat free dry food for my dog (he currently has tinned food or raw for breakfast and measured dry food throughout the day) and have found it nigh on impossible to source dry food from supermarkets without wheat!


then dont shop at supermarkets and go to a pet food retailler??!


----------



## brownhare

Arden Grange is working for my rescue Farm BC. If I am a bit strapped for cash I get James Well beloved as a second choice. I agree it is expensive but a point was made to me which I thought was quite sensible by my Vet that when you balance that against the diseases or accidents cheaper quality feed can cause and the long term costs of ill health, not to mention your dogs happiness and vigour the extra few pounds is money well worth spending.


----------



## brownhare

I also supplement, raw carrots and fruit (my BC LOVES cold apple) and fresh mackerel when my partner has been fishing, tinned sardines when he hasn't.


----------



## lady_r0gue

james1 said:


> then dont shop at supermarkets and go to a pet food retailler??!


I do! Either locally or online! It was just that she said


> Most good quality (and certainly the more natural) dry food now is in fact wheat free, unless you're buying at the cheap end of the market.


 which suggested to me that it should be possible to buy wheat free, decent dry food if you're buying the more expensive stuff. Which sadly isn't necessarily true - it's quite possible to pay extortionate prices for utter cr*p!
Spar is even more annoying - they only stock complete rubbish. 
I totally agree that it is easier to source the best food from local pet stores or online, just as we all know there are those random times when you suddenly realise you've run out of dog food and you're in the supermarket with 5 minutes to spare before work, blah blah. In those instances I would now tend to buy some cheap lambs hearts or something for about 20p - Biskit certainly doesn't mind


----------



## Guest

popsy said:


> I rarely feed dry food as I can't find one I'm completely happy with. I'm assuming this thread is being policed by the pet food brigade as there is a lot of defensiveness going on here. A forum is a debate about what various people think about what they feed their pets. I've just moved over here form the US and just because I am highlighting what is common knowledge in the US does not mean I "do not know what I am talking about".
> 
> Making a dry food full of meat meal is what every pet food company does. So of course you guys are going to defend it. But it really is worth considering how the meal is made and what it is made from.
> 
> So many people feed their dogs on dry food only - which may be convenient but it is not the only way of feeding them.


This thread is about the best dry food available so obviously we are going to be talking about dry food  but most here would much rather prefer feeding BARF if they felt up to it. We do know that dry commercial kibbles is not the ideal way to feed a dog which is why people here are discussing the best way to do that "less than perfect" way of feeding our dogs 
To be honest originally I tend to agree with the original and simple "scraps from the table" idea but in a vegetarian indian household it just won't do  so dry it is (with a weekly homemade special) until I feel up to feeding raw!

As for meat meal - do the research here because what you are saying has no backing whatsoever. UK and US food-related definitions have always widely differed, so things may not be quite the same here as you know it in the US. Each country will have different standards as well as far as pet food is concerned and not all the brands available are US or UK...


----------



## nellie_dean

lady_r0gue said:


> Not trying to argue with you Nellie as I agree with most of your sentiments - but I have been trying to find wheat free dry food for my dog (he currently has tinned food or raw for breakfast and measured dry food throughout the day) and have found it nigh on impossible to source dry food from supermarkets without wheat! Literally NONE of the dry foods on sale in Morrisons were without wheat.


Sorry, I should have said that quality foods don't contain wheat but unfortunately supermarkets are at the bottom end of the pet food market - go to Pets at Home or any half decent pet shop and you'll find loads of good quality pet foods for under £30 for 15kg. Check out www.pet-food-choice.co.uk for a few ideas


----------



## Rainmaker

I joined this forum after finding this thread via Google, and then reading it in its entirety. What a mammoth task that was! It was great to see the mostly level-headed and knowledgeable posts, especially the high proportion who seem to recognise that dogs are primarily predators and carnivores and aren't designed to be eating a waste grain based diet!  

I've fed my working dogs raw (whole carcases and raw meaty bones, not 'BARF') for many years and they do exceedingly well. Recently I've been supplementing with 50% Orijen and it's a wonderful food. There seems to be quite a bit of misinformation in some quarters of this thread about Orijen, but thankfully most seem to have a better idea about canine nutrition. Orijen might be relatively high protein but it's GOOD protein. More to the point it contains even less protein than a raw diet does, so how is that supposed to be 'too high'? Dogs and wolves don't get cooked rice and wheat in the wild, and it's not what their systems are evolved to eat, regardless of what some manufacturers might try to tell (sell) you.

For anyone who's interested, reading up on fat adaption would probably be interesting. Cheers.


----------



## jessejazza

Rainmaker said:


> I've fed my working dogs raw (whole carcases and raw meaty bones, not 'BARF') for many years and they do exceedingly well.


What are you defining as 'barf'?
I've fed raw meaty bones and some folk call that barf. Others add in vegetable and call that barf which is a contradiction... is that what you mean. Vegetable adds little to the diet apart from minerals.


----------



## Rainmaker

jessejazza said:


> What are you defining as 'barf'?
> I've fed raw meaty bones and some folk call that barf. Others add in vegetable and call that barf which is a contradiction... is that what you mean. Vegetable adds little to the diet apart from minerals.


I said I don't feed BARF, because as you point out some people don't know the difference. I feed Raw Meaty Bones and whole carcases, and my definitions would be:

1) BARF: Colloquial for vomit. System espoused by Ian Billinghurst since he broke away from the Raw Meaty Bones Lobby (Australia) in the 90s to set up shop selling ground patties and other such veggie concoctions for dogs.

2) Raw Meaty Bones: Simple method of feeding dogs/cats/ferrets on whole prey animals and large parts thereof, with no reliance on fruits/veg/nuts/seeds. Grinding specifically CONTRA-indicated as it doesn't clean the teeth or help prevent periodontal disease. Fed to dogs for centuries before pet food manufacturers found a way to sell waste grains as 'convenient' to modern society only a few decades ago, but recently popularised by Dr Tom Lonsdale in his books, website and seminars.

Although I love my bull breeds (when they're bred right) I keep and have kept mainly working terriers and lurchers. My freezer's never empty, and the dogs eat the best 'tucka' available because of that.  I hope that helps clarify my post, sorry for any confusion. :thumbup1:


----------



## lady_r0gue

Oh! I always thought BARF stood for bones and raw food? And of course also the colloquial for vomit....


----------



## Rainmaker

lady_r0gue said:


> Oh! I always thought BARF stood for bones and raw food? And of course also the colloquial for vomit....


Indeed, but since the 'BARF' phenomena has become so commercialised, with everything from ground carrots, peas and rice to cooked pouches being offered under the umbrella, 'real' raw feeders have moved away from the name and started to try to make the distinctions.

Generally things with a lot of grain and/or vegetable matter inside, anything ground/minced (ie not whole pieces) and the like cannot be considered proper 'raw feeding' in the term meant by the majority of proponents. Tom Lonsdale drawing the parallel between vomit and such mushy 'BARF' concoctions with their chunks of carrot and peas is a pretty succinct way to make the distinction, I think. If a little gross 

Anyway I don't want to take this too far OT, and apologise to anyone who didn't want to read this. As I stated in my original post in this thread, I supplement my raw feeding (mostly whole raw rabbits and chicken frames) with Orijen which is, for my money, the best dried food available.


----------



## Koneko

we have a great dane so we buy him special food, i can't remember what the name of the food is called but it is £50 a bag.

does this make us a bit mad lol


----------



## james1

if it begins with science plan then yes you are lol
Orijens just less than that price but an excellent kibble - you should really take an interest!!


----------



## sassie

Been following debate on dry dog food.
I have used Applaws recently (special deal at Pet Planet), as an alternative to Origen.
No problems
Both excellent
In my opinion pet dogs have no control over what they eat.
If any one chooses dog food on price only perhaps they should have considered
implications of long term costs of food and care prior to making the decision
to own a dog.
There are quality cheaper alternatives to Orijen and Applaws, it just needs
some internet research.


----------



## james1

Just to say, I havent found one kibble that comes close to Orijen or id be using it


----------



## Rainmaker

sassie said:


> Been following debate on dry dog food.
> I have used Applaws recently (special deal at Pet Planet), as an alternative to Origen.
> No problems
> Both excellent
> In my opinion pet dogs have no control over what they eat.
> If any one chooses dog food on price only perhaps they should have considered
> implications of long term costs of food and care prior to making the decision
> to own a dog.
> There are quality cheaper alternatives to Orijen and Applaws, it just needs
> some internet research.


Welcome on board.  Would you care to list some of those alternatives, and why you feel they're better?


----------



## sassie

I dont think there are any better products than Orijen or Applaws,
but the point I tried to make is that if cost is a factor, do some research on 
the less expensive brands, look at the ingredients and try to do whats best 
for the dog not your wallet


----------



## Lyceum

Heres the ingredients of the applaws food from their site.

*Applaws Dry Dog Food - 75% Chicken*

Ingredients: Dry Chicken Meat, Dry Potato, Poultry Oil, Fresh Chicken, Poultry Gravy, Salmon Oil, Beet Pulp, Dry Whole Eggs, Cellulose Plant Fibre, Brewers Dried Yeast, Cranberry Extract, Yucca Extract, Citrus Extract, Rosemary Oil Extract, Seaweed Extract, Chicory Extract, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Extract, Thyme Extract, Carrots, Peppermint Extract, Rosehip Extract, Paprika Extract, Turmeric Extract, Carob Extract, Fennel Extract, Dandelion Extract, Oregano Extract.

Typical Analysis: Protein 37%, Oils and Fats 20%, Ash 9.5%, Fibre 3.5%, Calcium 1.8%, Phosphorous 1.2%, Vitamin A 12,000 iu/kg, Vitamin D3 1,200 iu/kg,Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) 600 iu/kg. Copper (cupric Sulphate) 14 mg/kg. Contains Tocopherol rich extracts of natural origin. <18.5% Carbohydrates. No added colourants, flavourings or preservatives.

*Applaws Dry Dog Food - 75% Chicken & Lamb*

Ingredients: Dry Chicken Meat, Dry Potato, Poultry Oil, Fresh Chicken, Poultry Gravy, Dry Lamb, Salmon Oil, Beet Pulp, Dry Whole Eggs, Cellulose Plant Fibre, Brewers Dried Yeast, Cranberry Extract, Yucca Extract, Citrus Extract, Rosemary Oil Extract, Seaweed Extract, Chicory Extract, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Extract, Thyme Extract, Carrots, Peppermint Extract, Rosehip Extract, Paprika Extract, Turmeric Extract, Carob Extract, Fennel Extract, Dandelion Extract, Oregano Extract.

Typical Analysis: Protein 37%, Oils and Fats 20%, Ash 9.5%, Fibre 3.5%, Calcium 1.8%, Phosphorous 1.2%, Vitamin A 12,000 iu/kg, Vitamin D3 1,200 iu/kg,Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) 600 iu/kg. Copper (cupric Sulphate) 14 mg/kg. Contains Tocopherol rich extracts of natural origin. <18.5% Carbohydrates. No added colourants, flavourings or preservatives.

I have no idea what's good and what's not ingredients wise but I'm sure someone can tell use how applaws compares to others


----------



## Lyceum

sassie said:


> I dont think there are any better products than Orijen or Applaws,
> but the point I tried to make is that if cost is a factor, do some research on
> the less expensive brands, look at the ingredients and try to do whats best
> for the dog not your wallet


Can you post the feeding guide from the bag please? I can't seem to find one on line. Just wondering how it stacks up in terms of price per day when compared to Orijen.


----------



## LucyJ

Lyceum said:


> Can you post the feeding guide from the bag please? I can't seem to find one on line. Just wondering how it stacks up in terms of price per day when compared to Orijen.


Also be interested in the Glucosamine and Chrondoitin levels if they are on the bag. My oldest girl needs a good level and with Orijen I don't have to add supplements


----------



## james1

heres orijens  waiting for applaws

http://www.orijenpetfoods.co.uk/acatalog/orijen_feeding_guide.pdf


----------



## GoldenShadow

james1 said:


> heres orijens  waiting for applaws
> 
> http://www.orijenpetfoods.co.uk/acatalog/orijen_feeding_guide.pdf


Can I ask which Orijen it is that you feed your dog(s) and why that one?


----------



## victoriaj

hi guys thought i would add on here that i bought a 7kg bag of orijen for my puppy and she hates it and refuses to eat it. after a week of trying i have got her whites puppy food and she loves it thankfully. so if anyone near cambs area wants the orijen for £10 they are more than welcome to it


----------



## james1

ooo sorry she doesnt like it, must be a first! But glad shes eating now whatever  

Tinsely I use the puppy and senior - because I have a pup and a senior dog. 

edits (sp) sorry!


----------



## victoriaj

well wasn't my first choice as i so wanted her to eat the orijen as it is so good. whites had been my second choice and at least she is still having a decent food


----------



## james1

as I say im still surprised she refused it, but... did you try feeding by hand? This might encourage her ? The scent of meat in there gets mine really eager for meals more than any kibble ive tried before.
Sorry for the spelling error in the above


----------



## Nonnie

victoriaj said:


> hi guys thought i would add on here that i bought a 7kg bag of orijen for my puppy and she hates it and refuses to eat it. after a week of trying i have got her whites puppy food and she loves it thankfully. so if anyone near cambs area wants the orijen for £10 they are more than welcome to it


She's not the only one. I got a small 200g bag when it first came out and both of mine refused it.


----------



## ScrappyDoo

Mine too. Even though I'm more than happy with my usual food I thought I'd have to give it a go after reading some of the recommendations on here but he really wouldn't touch it. The shop won't take it back either so it's not a cheap trial.


----------



## katiefranke

james1 said:


> as I say im still surprised she refused it, but... did you try feeding by hand? This might encourage her ? The scent of meat in there gets mine really eager for meals more than any kibble ive tried before.
> Sorry for the spelling error in the above


Maggie is like your dogs James - her eyes went huge the first time she smelt it and she looked just like she used to look when I had some chicken for her treats in training!

Only thing with it is, do you find yours actually crunch the biscuits up when they eat it? Maggie seems to just hoover it up and I am worried she isnt chewing it she is that excited about it!


----------



## Snoringbear

Mine respond to orijen as if it were treats than kibble. They have never left any in their bowls.


----------



## Lyceum

Has anyone managed to find a feeding guide for the applaws dry?


----------



## debs123

both my dogs eat pedigree puppy complete and they love at first my x whippet lizard didnt eat but now she sees the puppy saint bernard sky eating it she wolfs it down now. so im happy my dogs are happy so great


----------



## james1

katiefranke said:


> Maggie is like your dogs James - her eyes went huge the first time she smelt it and she looked just like she used to look when I had some chicken for her treats in training!
> 
> Only thing with it is, do you find yours actually crunch the biscuits up when they eat it? Maggie seems to just hoover it up and I am worried she isnt chewing it she is that excited about it!


lol nope - its the hoover technique, if I ever give any by hand then they will crunch occasionally but mostly they hoover. Their eyes pop out of their heads just like you say - great isnt it!! Even my 11 year old who has has a really bad time of it this year, we put him on this to get some nutition in him and its brought him back to the dog we all love and know from some very dark moments.

I tried to wet it as my younger cought a 24hr tummy bug recently and he refused it lol just totally walked away, I threw it out and gave him 1/2 a portion dry and it was gone quick time. Gave him the rest an hour later.

Glad she likes it hope it doesnt give her any reactions 
(Remember not to feed as much - cant stress this enough) 

edit: especailly as your just introducing it... increase the amounts over a good 2 week period


----------



## victoriaj

james1 said:


> as I say im still surprised she refused it, but... did you try feeding by hand? This might encourage her ? The scent of meat in there gets mine really eager for meals more than any kibble ive tried before.
> Sorry for the spelling error in the above


i tried feeding it by hand i tried moistening it with warm water i even put a spoonful of chappie in with it but nothing worked at all. now she is on whites she is so happy and energetic and goes mad for her food when i put it down i guess all dogs have different tastes just like us!! i feed her 3 times a day as breeder was only feeding her twice a day and i did not think that was enough so i weigh out her daily amount and split it into 3 meals


----------



## victoriaj

Nonnie said:


> She's not the only one. I got a small 200g bag when it first came out and both of mine refused it.


wish i'd only bought a 200g bag lol!!!


----------



## victoriaj

ScrappyDoo said:


> Mine too. Even though I'm more than happy with my usual food I thought I'd have to give it a go after reading some of the recommendations on here but he really wouldn't touch it. The shop won't take it back either so it's not a cheap trial.


it def isn't a cheap trial well we live and learn i guess!! i know i certainly have lol


----------



## james1

So sorry it didnt work out for you, I know you were keen to have her on it, I really did think shed take to it well:


----------



## victoriaj

do you think it is worth re trying at a later date or just keep her on whites if she's happy on it?


----------



## james1

it is a bit expensive just to give up on - theres no harm in giving it her again. Did you wet it for her? As I said in an earlier post, my pup refused it wet point blank even though hed been fed on it for 4+ months and hed been starved for a day!. He was ill so I thought it would be better digested - but seems he likes it as it is - dry.
Mixing it with her regular kibble in introductory portions should work fine - but if she doent like it then she doesnt like it. Others have said theirs dont like it - am surprised to be honest.


----------



## GoldenShadow

james1 said:


> Others have said theirs dont like it - am surprised to be honest.


I have to say, I think the only reason Roo doesn't like it is because it was so rich, seeing as its all proper ingredients etc. Even with raw bones, they go right through him and make him feel a bit unwell (or I assume so as he has chosen to go and lie in his crate instead of coming to sit on you on the floor like he usually does!).

I think in that sense its too good almost, for him, like his body just can't tolerate that much protein etc maybe. He's on the ocean white fish and potato from Arden Grange at the moment, but the protein isn't as high as Orijen's, I think for him, that is why he didn't get on with it.

We might try it again when he is older, but just went right through him when we did try it. We stay away from raw bones now too, I know you need to give a certain amount to get them used to it etc, but as with the Orijen, he seemed so unwell I didn't want to continue really at that time!

Orijen is undoubtedly a brilliant kibble, Rupert just can't handle it right now, lol!


----------



## mohsin

Different products are there in the market. It depends on the nature and eating habits of your dog too. Only then you can go for a dry food if he likes it. I have found a source for you which might help resolve your problem. Pets directory  | It is advised that if you want your dog to eat something. Let it stay hungry for a couple of hours.


----------



## victoriaj

james1 said:


> it is a bit expensive just to give up on - theres no harm in giving it her again. Did you wet it for her? As I said in an earlier post, my pup refused it wet point blank even though hed been fed on it for 4+ months and hed been starved for a day!. He was ill so I thought it would be better digested - but seems he likes it as it is - dry.
> Mixing it with her regular kibble in introductory portions should work fine - but if she doent like it then she doesnt like it. Others have said theirs dont like it - am surprised to be honest.


tried it wet tried it dry tried everything mixed it into her whites and she searched it out and left it!!


----------



## james1

hmm im not sure what you can do then if shes not even tasting it, sounds obvious but are you stiring it in with the other kibble to disperse the scent? It might be a way for you to use it up. But if she doesnt like it then no point in buying it again...
Your going to have the bag for ages though what with the amounts youll be giving her, at least you know its a good food that wont do her any harm but asside from that you cant make them eat if they dont want to. Think about donating it to a rescue centre if noone buys it..?


----------



## victoriaj

james1 said:


> hmm im not sure what you can do then if shes not even tasting it, sounds obvious but are you stiring it in with the other kibble to disperse the scent? It might be a way for you to use it up. But if she doesnt like it then no point in buying it again...
> Your going to have the bag for ages though what with the amounts youll be giving her, at least you know its a good food that wont do her any harm but asside from that you cant make them eat if they dont want to. Think about donating it to a rescue centre if noone buys it..?


yes stirred it in but no use and thanks for the idea of donating it will take it to wood green at least i know it won't be going to waste


----------



## james1

just re read you posts you did day you tried different ways of feeding it, they were just my ideas of how to try it out. Sorry it hasnt workined for you


----------



## victoriaj

james1 said:


> just re read you posts you did day you tried different ways of feeding it, they were just my ideas of how to try it out. Sorry it hasnt workined for you


yeah i have tried loads of different methods to get her to eat it but nothing worked and like i said she is happy on whites so if shes happy then so am i!


----------



## Guest

Mine are on James Wellbeloved, I can't fault the food, but I am trying to save pennies so I am changing them over to Beta as it's not a bad food and it's relatively cheap.


----------



## Rainmaker

keeleyjane19 said:


> Mine are on James Wellbeloved, I can't fault the food, but I am trying to save pennies so I am changing them over to Beta as it's not a bad food and it's relatively cheap.


With respect, I'd reconsider about Beta. They're not very good foods at all! Definitely better to be had even if you don't want to pay much in one go. By that I mean 'dear' foods are actually cheaper than 'cheap' foods over time anyway (feed less = costs less overall), but even at the 'cheap price per bag' end of the spectrum there's a lot better out there than Beta.

Just look at their ingredients lists, and you'll see what I mean. All the best, whatever you choose.


----------



## mayhem

Hello everyone, new user here.
I have just spent the last two evenings reading ALL 838 posts on this thread, I think I wish I hadn't!
I googled ' best dry dog food' thinking I would get a nice, simple answer............
Anyhow, these are now my questions:
At what age do you start feeding chicken carcass? Do you feed a whole chicken, hat, coat and feet, or a dressed one?
At what age do you introduce bones? (I know it was mentioned, but I'm not going through all 838 posts again!)
On the website link to 'what's in dry food' table thingy, it says that apple pips, grapes and currants and potato peel and toxic to dogs. Then why have organic foods got fruit, grapeseed extract and potato in them? Do they have teams of trained chimps, peeling spuds, and de-seeding grapes?
My soon-to-arrive labrador puppy will be coming with a bag of RC. At what age can I start to change him over? How long should I take? (longer as it is a pup?)
Currently my feed of choice is Burns or Whites, subject to the next post on this thread!! Does anyone have any comments?
I have enjoyed most of the posts, finding them informative, thought-provoking, and mostly interesting. Thanks to you all.


----------



## dvnbiker

Well like some other people I have just spent the last two evenings reading through this post and most fascinating it has been. I really take seriously what i feed my dogs as I decide what they get and they have no choice in the matter so surely they have the right for it to be the best that I can afford. I have three BCs two aged 6 and one 22 months, two do agility and we regularly compete and train, other does a bit of flyball and maybe doing canix if hubby does decide to give it a go.

I have been through the feeding crap such as bakers when I first got the two older boys and then a friend suggested I tried Burns but mine just looked at it and ate it like it was cardboard plus I found they lost coat condition which I think is due to the lack of oil in the food but it does do well for a lot of dogs - one thing I dont like is the huge amount of rice in it. I have fed CSJ and the dogs did well on the command performance but I struggled getting it regularly.

When I got my youngster I struggled to find any food that she actually enjoyed - she would take 25 mins to eat her tea eating one kibble at a time - personally I want a dog to enjoy its food and taking 25 mins to eat her tea she clearly wasnt enjoying it. I tried orijen and she loved it, actually queuing up with the boys waiting for it so we went onto that. All three look fantastic on it and we keep getting comments by other people asking what we are feeding.

I now feed a regime of 5 days on orijen and then 2 days a week they will have raw mince for their tea, they also have chicken wings at least once a week plus raw bones when I can get them. This varied diet really suits them and the orijen is the mainstay of that diet and is something that I will be sticking to.

I know alot of people have an issue with the high protein but if I was feeding complete raw their protein would be higher than this plus I have noticed absolutely no ill effects to the high protein, quite the opposite. So thats my twopenneth and I look forward to reading other peoples


----------



## james1

Id avoid using beta, have you looked at working kibbles like skinners duck and rice if your looking to save money? Beta will do nothing but give them manic episodes


----------



## Guest

Rainmaker said:


> With respect, I'd reconsider about Beta. They're not very good foods at all! Definitely better to be had even if you don't want to pay much in one go. By that I mean 'dear' foods are actually cheaper than 'cheap' foods over time anyway (feed less = costs less overall), but even at the 'cheap price per bag' end of the spectrum there's a lot better out there than Beta.
> 
> Just look at their ingredients lists, and you'll see what I mean. All the best, whatever you choose.


Just read the ingredients list ... oh my!! What a load of rubbish!! I have sat down and worked out what a 15kg bag will give me 62 days food (2 months) which will work out £22.50 per month which isn't at all bad for 2 dogs!! And according to the feeding instructions i should only be feeding them around 120g each per day so it is the best option!! And to be honest there aren't any cheaper "decent" foods out there, and being 2 lively jack russells, i need a nice calm food!!! Not one full of additives and complete rubbish!! 
Thank you x


----------



## Guest

keeleyjane19 said:


> Just read the ingredients list ... oh my!! What a load of rubbish!! I have sat down and worked out what a 15kg bag will give me 62 days food (2 months) which will work out £22.50 per month which isn't at all bad for 2 dogs!! And according to the feeding instructions i should only be feeding them around 120g each per day so it is the best option!! And to be honest there aren't any cheaper "decent" foods out there, and being 2 lively jack russells, i need a nice calm food!!! Not one full of additives and complete rubbish!!
> Thank you x


The workings out are for james wellbeloved food by the way xx


----------



## Guest

Was just looking at burns dog food, wow, its really good!?! For my dogs' size they recommend feeding 70g each per day (5-10kg dogs = 50-100g) It is £42.99 for a 15kg sack and the ingredients look promising!!

Chicken & Brown Rice complete dog food

A hypo-allergenic diet for the avoidance of food intolerance.
Available in 15kg, 7.5kg and 2kg bag sizes.

Contains:

* Brown Rice (min 63%)
* Chicken (min 20%)
* Oats
* Peas
* Chicken Oil
* Sunflower Oil
* Seaweed
* Minerals & Vitamins


Typical Analysis:

* Protein 18.5%
* Oil 7.5%
* Fibre 2.2%
* Ash 7.0%
* Vitamin A 8000 iu/kg
* Vitamin D3 1500 iu/kg
* Vitamin E 50 iu/kg
* Moisture 8%
* Copper 15mg/kg
* Sodium 0.51%
* Calcium 1.1%
* Phosphorus 0.63%
* Magnesium 0.10%

Protein levels are relatively low too which is fantastic for 2 mega lively jack russells!!!!

Thanks people for convincing me not to feed beta...what a load of rubbish that food is!! xx


----------



## victoriaj

mayhem said:


> Hello everyone, new user here.
> I have just spent the last two evenings reading ALL 838 posts on this thread, I think I wish I hadn't!
> I googled ' best dry dog food' thinking I would get a nice, simple answer............
> Anyhow, these are now my questions:
> At what age do you start feeding chicken carcass? Do you feed a whole chicken, hat, coat and feet, or a dressed one?
> At what age do you introduce bones? (I know it was mentioned, but I'm not going through all 838 posts again!)
> On the website link to 'what's in dry food' table thingy, it says that apple pips, grapes and currants and potato peel and toxic to dogs. Then why have organic foods got fruit, grapeseed extract and potato in them? Do they have teams of trained chimps, peeling spuds, and de-seeding grapes?
> My soon-to-arrive labrador puppy will be coming with a bag of RC. At what age can I start to change him over? How long should I take? (longer as it is a pup?)
> Currently my feed of choice is Burns or Whites, subject to the next post on this thread!! Does anyone have any comments?
> I have enjoyed most of the posts, finding them informative, thought-provoking, and mostly interesting. Thanks to you all.


like i saud earlier i tried orijen and my pup hated it she is on whites and is thriving on it. i still believe orijen to be the best put as a second choice whites is really good


----------



## james1

keeleyjane19 said:


> Was just looking at burns dog food, wow, its really good!?! For my dogs' size they recommend feeding 70g each per day (5-10kg dogs = 50-100g) It is £42.99 for a 15kg sack and the ingredients look promising!!


orijens would be around the 40-50g mark and 46pounds delivered, but working kibbles are VAT free and usually cheaper


----------



## mayhem

I am sure I saw, some 100 or so posts ago, that someone loved Pero, but was having trouble getting it.
I walked through Waitrose today (free parking) and saw it on their shelf. The manager said that they would always get it in, in outers of four or whatever, if someone ordered it, even if that particular shop didn't have it on the shelf.
Hope this helps someone.


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> orijens would be around the 40-50g mark and 46pounds delivered, but working kibbles are VAT free and usually cheaper


Ooo! Now I don't know which one!!!! lol Orijen would be cheaper, is it the same quality? x


----------



## Roo

Whites is a fantastic food & a really good price. Take a look & give it a go


----------



## james1

keeleyjane19 said:


> Ooo! Now I don't know which one!!!! lol Orijen would be cheaper, is it the same quality? x


yes its the best on the market, how old is your dog? and what breed?


----------



## victoriaj

Roo said:


> Whites is a fantastic food & a really good price. Take a look & give it a go


i haveto agree now that my pup is on it and she's doing brilliantly .. its a very good dog food


----------



## bink67

I have a beagle/hound mix and he seems to not like his food after 30days. Anyone have any suggestions or run across a picky eater???? I need help!! Oh, and he is limited because he has a sensitive digestive system!!


----------



## katiefranke

bink67 said:


> I have a beagle/hound mix and he seems to not like his food after 30days. Anyone have any suggestions or run across a picky eater???? I need help!! Oh, and he is limited because he has a sensitive digestive system!!


hi there, i would thoroughly recommend Orijen. It is grain-free, which can be good for those with dodgy tums and brilliant high quality ingredients. Maggie's eyes go huge when she smells it and she acts like I am giving her treats she likes it so much!

Get a sample bag first to check what you think - and introduce it slowly if he likes it, esp for a sensitive dog.

If you want to feed a bit of wet in there too, this can help with fussy eaters - Applaws tins are great, or the trays of Nature Diet, but this is less convenient if you only want to feed a small amount with dry.


----------



## nightingale

I would agree with Orijen. It is very good. I have been my 8 and a half month Welsh Springer and he is doing great . I only have one doubt here.....I give him 140 gm for one feed and I feel he should get more. The bag says 300 per day which is 150 per meal ie if it is 2 meals a day. Now I don't know if i am giving the correct amount as this food was not recommended by my vet .I feel he hasn't put on much weight since the past 2 months . he weighs 16.5kg at 8 and a half months. I would like some advice here please. also , I have read in other threads that you don't have to give much when you feed Orijen ...but what is the right and correct amount .for my puppy or for pups at that age.


----------



## dvnbiker

Your pup will stop putting on quite as much weight at the same rate the older he gets. 

I also tend to fee 1/3 of my dog's requirement in the morning and then 2/3 in the evening. I feed orijen and do find their feeding amounts a good starting point but alter it as I need to. 

If you can feel his ribs too easily then increase the amount slightly, if you can just feel them then he is fine as he is, if you cant feel them at all then you need to cut down.


----------



## Wills1

Hi all, newbie on here, my first post.

Have 2 Italian Spinones, old boy has done v. well on James Wellbeloved big bite and Professional Choice Maintainance, but breeders advised that pup - now 6 months - should go with natural diet (meat plus mixer plus vit/mins via keepers' mix and codliver oil etc) as vets think dry complete food is what's caused upsurge in bloat cases over recent years. Any comments? I do like to feed the natural diet (meat comes in those froozen packs of rabbit, lamb etc|) but it's quite a faff getting it all organised and into the dish. No more expensive tho.


----------



## nightingale

dvnbiker said:


> Your pup will stop putting on quite as much weight at the same rate the older he gets.
> 
> I also tend to fee 1/3 of my dog's requirement in the morning and then 2/3 in the evening. I feed orijen and do find their feeding amounts a good starting point but alter it as I need to.
> 
> If you can feel his ribs too easily then increase the amount slightly, if you can just feel them then he is fine as he is, if you cant feel them at all then you need to cut down.


He was 6.7 kg about 6 weeks ago but he has come down to 6.4 kg now and the nurse at the vets said he should not have lost weight . 2 months ago I started 2 meals a day instead of the 3 meals . Also , he exercises a lot more now . He seems fine to fine and looks good. I am a bit worried about the quantity .when I told the nurse about Orijen she said she had never heard about it . The vets are really big and very well known in London and they have a very good reputation.I hope i am giving teh right amount. what amount would you give for a 8 and half month puppy a day . Orijen's recommended amount is quite confusing !


----------



## katiefranke

nightingale said:


> He was 6.7 kg about 6 weeks ago but he has come down to 6.4 kg now and the nurse at the vets said he should not have lost weight . 2 months ago I started 2 meals a day instead of the 3 meals . Also , he exercises a lot more now . He seems fine to fine and looks good. I am a bit worried about the quantity .when I told the nurse about Orijen she said she had never heard about it . The vets are really big and very well known in London and they have a very good reputation.I hope i am giving teh right amount. what amount would you give for a 8 and half month puppy a day . Orijen's recommended amount is quite confusing !
> View attachment 35588


I found that i feed just less than the bottom of the recommended amount for maggie and this seems to suit fine...Orijen is a pretty new food so this could be why they havent heard of it...mine hadnt either, but then they recommend hills so i dont listen to them when it comes to nutrition!

This is a great way to check whether your dog is the right weight...dog weight chart - The Purina Body Condition System

I would up his intake a bit and see how you go...food quanities are very difficult to judge from a packet as they dont take account of activity levels or breed etc, so you need to judge by looking.


----------



## alysonandhedley

Does this help

Its the orijen feeding guide. I didnt find it on the packets so did a google. I have only just started with it so I cant comment, as he is having below the lowest amount per day atm.


----------



## katiefranke

alysonandhedley said:


> Does this help
> 
> Its the orijen feeding guide. I didnt find it on the packets so did a google. I have only just started with it so I cant comment, as he is having below the lowest amount per day atm.


yeah strangely they dont put the feeding guidelines on the trial packs??! 

I had to find on the website too...


----------



## Snoringbear

katiefranke said:


> hi there, i would thoroughly recommend Orijen. It is grain-free, which can be good for those with dodgy tums and brilliant high quality ingredients. Maggie's eyes go huge when she smells it and she acts like I am giving her treats she likes it so much!
> 
> Get a sample bag first to check what you think - and introduce it slowly if he likes it, esp for a sensitive dog.
> 
> If you want to feed a bit of wet in there too, this can help with fussy eaters - Applaws tins are great, or the trays of Nature Diet, but this is less convenient if you only want to feed a small amount with dry.


nature diet also has rice in so it defeats the point of feeding orijen imo.


----------



## Snoringbear

nightingale said:


> He was 6.7 kg about 6 weeks ago but he has come down to 6.4 kg now and the nurse at the vets said he should not have lost weight . 2 months ago I started 2 meals a day instead of the 3 meals . Also , he exercises a lot more now . He seems fine to fine and looks good. I am a bit worried about the quantity .when I told the nurse about Orijen she said she had never heard about it . The vets are really big and very well known in London and they have a very good reputation.I hope i am giving teh right amount. what amount would you give for a 8 and half month puppy a day . Orijen's recommended amount is quite confusing !
> View attachment 35588


Don't worry if they haven't heard of it. The only food they know about is Hills as they get money to push it.


----------



## katiefranke

Snoringbear said:


> nature diet also has rice in so it defeats the point of feeding orijen imo.


true, applaws tins also contain rice - but it depends if people are using it just because it is grain-free. naturediet contains brown rice which is better that most grains for digestibility. but I do not feed any of the wet to maggie - she just has orijen, so completely grain-free. i do however feed my cats the applaws tins which have a small amount of white rice i think. but mainly meat content.


----------



## katiefranke

Snoringbear said:


> Don't worry if they haven't heard of it. The only food they know about is Hills as they get money to push it.


ha! yeah thats what i said! i have yet to meet a vet that knows anything about nutrition! (not to say they aren't out there, but i think they are few and far between!)


----------



## Nonnie

nigelTug said:


> I always give my little petal Purina Beta dog food its nutritionally balanced and based on natural ingredients and he just loves it


Beta is a poor quality food. Cereals (cheap fillers) are the first listed ingredient, and it also contains the dreaded animal derivatives.



> Cereals (min 4% wholegrain), Meat and animal derivatives (min. 14% meats, min. 4% chicken), Vegetables protein extracts, Derivatives of vegetable origin (min. 0.5% beet pulp), Oils and fats , Minerals, Vegetables (min. 0.5% chicory). With antioxidants and preserved with EC additives.


Not to mention additives.

Personally wouldnt touch it with a bargepole.


----------



## Kinski

nigelTug said:


> I always give my little petal Purina Beta dog food its nutritionally balanced and based on natural ingredients and he just loves it


I'm with Nonnie, Beta is a terrible food, it's on a par with Bakers and co. The ec additives might be bha and bht both of which are thought to cause cancers by some experts.


----------



## nightingale

Snoringbear said:


> Don't worry if they haven't heard of it. The only food they know about is Hills as they get money to push it.


yes, you are correct . They prescribed Hills and he started to itch his ears and thanks to this forum through which I gathered that they could eb allergic to some ingredient so I changed him to Origen after reading a lot about the food.. i will check out the feeding guide though .


----------



## Henry52

Vitalin premium diet is still the best in my opinion, its just as good as some of the more well known brands but much much cheaper. I pay less than £30 including delivery for a 15kg bag from luxurypetstore.co.uk - Premium Complete Dry Dog - Cat & Ferret Food Uk . Which lasts ages


----------



## james1

nigelTug said:


> I always give my little petal Purina Beta dog food its nutritionally balanced and based on natural ingredients and he just loves it


:crying::crying: nutritionally balanced :crying::crying:


----------



## sequeena

nigelTug said:


> I always give my little petal Purina Beta dog food its nutritionally balanced and based on natural ingredients and he just loves it


No no no :nonod: Beta is owned by Purina which also owns Bakers. It's a very poor quality food full of fillers.


----------



## Wills1

Henry52 said:


> Vitalin premium diet is still the best in my opinion, its just as good as some of the more well known brands but much much cheaper. I pay less than £30 including delivery for a 15kg bag from luxurypetstore.co.uk - Premium Complete Dry Dog - Cat & Ferret Food Uk . Which lasts ages


Just wanted to say thanks for a reminder about this excellent firm and their products - I need a back-up supply to the natural diet (meat + mixer, see above) my 6 month old pup's usually on, owing to snow and an ailing vehicle, so checked out their Puppy Plus - the ingredients label reads very well, 46% chicken etc. If you want to speak to someone re delivery dates etc rather than make a purely on-line purchase, contact the company direct - their last guaranteed del date for pre-Xmas was yesterday, but for a fiver extra you can get next day service.

Puppy Plus on Vitalin Complete Pet Food

I commented to them that I'd forgotten about their products, never see them advertised and hardly ever in local retailers, even tho I'm not far from their HQ in N. Yorks. Response was that they're a small family firm who can't really compete with the huge companies, so it's great that they get good word of mouth recommendations thru sites like this. Let's keep up the good work - support the small indies like Vitalin with their excellent products, and help ensure their future :yesnod:


----------



## steelers4lyf

I think it depends on the type of dog you have. One of my dogs will eat anything and is not affected by it. However, my other dog has a really sensitive stomach and most types of food make her ill.


----------



## Maistaff

I have tried and tested a variety of brands never finding one which i really wanted to feed to my dogs or was overly happy with the results

Currently they are on Arden Grange but i am changing to Orijen as i would like to see what difference going grain free makes to them


----------



## staffie1306

I feed my Staffie Wainwrights, it's cheaper than Wellbeloved and suits him better. His coat is so soft and shiny now. He is less smelly which is a bonus and he used to be sick on Wellbeloved but isn't on Wainwrights.


----------



## stigDarley

Skinners is a really good brand. 5% of James wellbeloved, Burns and Arden Grange all are made at Golden Acres. I owna pet shop and have heard alot of horror storeis about Golden Acres!!! 

Skinners is a family company really friendly and really good quality food at a good price. Beta has sugar in it...


----------



## stigDarley

Wainwrights is also made at Golden Acres!


----------



## stigDarley

Also Wainwrights is pets at home own brand,,,,, They buy is for about £6-7 a bag and sell it at £30...........


----------



## smskar

stigDarley said:


> Skinners is a really good brand. 5% of James wellbeloved, Burns and Arden Grange all are made at Golden Acres. I owna pet shop and have heard alot of horror storeis about Golden Acres!!!
> 
> Skinners is a family company really friendly and really good quality food at a good price. Beta has sugar in it...


I had a quick look on Golden Acres' website. mmmm interesting... It never crossed my mind that there are companies like this. wow It reminds me a bit of the business gifts companies, here is a pen put your logo on it bingo! Personalised gift...

I am in the process of swapping from Burns to Skinners. Very friendly company indeed, they sent me loads of samples (good size sample bags too), no upset stomachs so far and the dogs love their food as it is, no need to put anything on the kibble. Less rice, more meat and much cheaper too.


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## sequeena

mydoog said:


> you have very beautiful dogsssss wowowow


Thank you


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## Wills1

stigDarley said:


> Skinners is a really good brand. 5% of James wellbeloved, Burns and Arden Grange all are made at Golden Acres. I owna pet shop and have heard alot of horror storeis about Golden Acres!!!
> 
> Skinners is a family company really friendly and really good quality food at a good price. Beta has sugar in it...


The thing is, Skinners have (like the vast majority of other manufacturers, even Vitalin) as their protein content, meat MEAL instead of what most people would regard as proper meat. Meat MEAL usually includes ground up waste/rubbish, a lot of it pretty unlovely - have you all seen another topic on this site "the dangers of complete dog food"? I urge you to read it if you haven't already. (NB I've spent the last hour searching but can't find it now!! was written by a guy called AndyL who does have books on it to sell, but convinced me with his common sense and articles on the greed of large manufacturers, nearly all of whom use pet food as a convenient way of getting rid of their waste products arising from their human food companies)

I'll use complete as an emergency backup (currently snowed/iced in!!) but for us in the longterm, a natural diet of raw (Prize Choice frozen blocks of various minces) or cooked meat plus top quality mixer or home cooked starch such as oats, barley or rice OR the excellent trays of ready meals with pure natural ingredients produced by, eg, Forthglade, Wainwrights etc, are the way to go. The trays are about 30% more expensive but just as quick to serve as complete; the meat + mixer takes a little longer but is no more expensive.

I've yet to see a dry complete ingredients label that I'd be completely happy with...


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## Wills1

Found the link!! 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/968-dangers-dog-food.html

Plus another site (even better - more factual, balanced, objective and accurate I think) which I found very interesting/informative 
The Dog Food Project - Myths about Dog Nutrition


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## Harley08

Can I ask where you get the Royal Canin from for £26 ish as I can't find it under £40. Many thanks


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## james1

I appreciate the links but I take these with a pinch of salt, the 'meal' constituents in the links given are very general so I dont think they can be applied to every pet food manufacturer going. It should really state that "sometimes meal can include" rather than painting a picture that all 'meal' products include, as I dont think this is the case at all. The AAFCO is an american control organisation largely aimed at agriculture and it doesnt actually state what is actually a good food for pets - saying that BARF is potentially damaging as you can never correctly judge it.
In the first link given, the poster has researched this they say they are feeding a beef diet - which isnt good a dog food at all. And the site where the video is located is more of a shop than an information service.
I wouldnt worry about meal in foods in the least, I cant really imagine companys putting zoo animals, diseased or otherwise that have died through natural or chemically induced causes into rendering machines to be sold off as foodstuffs without it becoming a widespread public concern.
I do prefer food that have animal stated meals ie lamb/turkey meal but this is only to satisfy my knowedge of what the animal is, that it has come from and not say ... a hippopotamus or similar.


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## nellie_dean

stigDarley said:


> Wainwrights is also made at Golden Acres!


I think this info is incorrect. I'm 90% certain that Pets at Home food is made by a small company in East Anglia


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## nellie_dean

Harley08 said:


> Can I ask where you get the Royal Canin from for £26 ish as I can't find it under £40. Many thanks


You can buy Royal Canin at under £40/bag at Pets at Home online.

With regard to other comments on this thread about ingredients, most of the info on the web is for the US market and you really can't infer that UK made food is identical. There are regulations as to what can and cannot go into pet food, and a lot of what you find on the web does not relate to the UK pet food industry.

Meat and animal derivatives are legally defined in the UK Feeding Stuffs Regulations 2005. They are sourced from animals which have been inspected and passed as fit for human consumption and are the parts of the animal which are surplus to the requirements of the human food industry in the UK eg. heart, lung, or muscle meat, which may not be traditionally eaten by people in this country.

This material will generally be rendered down and added as dried meal to the recipe.

Fot more info that's more UK oriented try Pet Food ingredients - Dog and cat food - the inside story


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## james1

reps to the above - cant stand it when people post scary stuff ehn its pretty well off the mark


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## lovespringerspaniels.com

I have a guide to deciphering dog food labeling on my website, hope that helps you out.

Personally I go for Burns or James Wellbeloved, as you can't give hyperactive Springers any additives.

Although I have a Springer site this dog food guide will apply to any breed

Dog Food for your Springer


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## dan7271

royal canin they love it.


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## Gary Fishman

I'd go for Bakers. It's never expensive, always easy to get hold of and delicious (I've eaten it for a bet) and washes down well with a can of Foster's! Also makes a nice gravy (for the dog) when a bit of warm water is added. Ta. Available at tesco, Asda, etc. :wink:


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## Nonnie

Gary Fishman said:


> I'd go for Bakers. It's never expensive, always easy to get hold of and delicious (I've eaten it for a bet) and washes down well with a can of Foster's! Also makes a nice gravy (for the dog) when a bit of warm water is added. Ta. Available at tesco, Asda, etc. :wink:


Its also one of the WORST possible things you could feed your dog. Full of poor quailty derivatives, loads of grains, colourings and harmful chemicals.

Its responsible for many ailments and behavioural problems.


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## sequeena

Nonnie said:


> Its also one of the WORST possible things you could feed your dog. Full of poor quailty derivatives, loads of grains, colourings and harmful chemicals.
> 
> Its responsible for many ailments and behavioural problems.


:thumbup1:

My lot went nuts on it and the poo was horrendous. Sky's coat went really dry and dull too


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## james1

Gary Fishman said:


> I'd go for Bakers. It's never expensive, always easy to get hold of and delicious (I've eaten it for a bet) and washes down well with a can of Foster's! Also makes a nice gravy (for the dog) when a bit of warm water is added. Ta. Available at tesco, Asda, etc. :wink:


Dont mean to worry you and I hope no-one takes ya advice lol - this is an Irish standard food label, mush stricter than the UK's
You dont want to be giving your dog this many E numbers plain and simple. BHA has shown hyperactivity in kids, BHT has shown cancer causing agents.
Personally id stay away from anything that was that brightly coloured; edible or other


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## Lyceum

sequeena said:


> :thumbup1:
> 
> My lot went nuts on it and the poo was horrendous. Sky's coat went really dry and dull too


Seconded, I put my eldest boy on it when I first got him, having no idea about dog food, I thought food was food basically.

The guy in the local pet shop alerted me to the fact it was utter crap, so I did a little looking around and changed him straight away. The change was dramatic, much calmer dog, considerably less poo, fabulous soft, shiny coat, more attention when training. The difference really was notable within a few weeks. I was shocked, also felt awful for having fed it to him in the first place :blush:


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## Wills1

Thanks Nellie Dean and James, useful re UK food (will read later at leisure when more time) and points taken - but James, was only passing on in good faith what has been posted elsewhere on this site, so it's the original author you need to address if you want to have a go at someone, not me, OK?! 

It is true, however, that a recent survey of vets (not sure which journal) showed that most think the significant increase in bloat in dogs (v. dangerous, rapidly fatal medical emergency if not treated) in recent years is down to the increased feeding of dry complete dog foods.


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## james1

Wills1 said:


> Thanks Nellie Dean and James, useful re UK food (will read later at leisure when more time) and points taken - but James, was only passing on in good faith what has been posted elsewhere on this site, so it's the original author you need to address if you want to have a go at someone, not me, OK?!
> 
> It is true, however, that a recent survey of vets (not sure which journal) showed that most think the significant increase in bloat in dogs (v. dangerous, rapidly fatal medical emergency if not treated) in recent years is down to the increased feeding of dry complete dog foods.


Not having a go but if your going to pass information on you should surely check that its reliable? I could well say 'dogs like to scratch their ears because of a long instinctual need for people to whisper into them'. Simply because someone else has said it doenst make it true and doesnt make it worth repeating if not, which you should be checking before posting it.

As far as bloat again is not tied to dry food really more the way the dog consumes its meal. There is infact a *sticky thread on this on the health and nutrition main page.


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## ricky_ponting

Unlike the majority dog treats, Bully Sticks are 100% all natural and they hold no chemicals or preservatives. The Bully Stick itself is a bull's penis, which is usually either dried or smoked. Besides being entirely safe for dog, they are also completely digestible and a great source of protein.


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## james1

People have suggested smoked products as having carcinogenic qualities in their long term effects but ive not read over the information that well  Its amazing the amount of foods that are bad for them - just wish the poisonous foods list was more definitive..


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## Clare7435

I swear by James wellbeloved, My dog has life long health problems thanks to the scum who had her before we got her, she has permenantly damage ligaments, skin problems and all other kinds of health difficulties and this food is the only one that suits her, the vet recomended it after she'd been put on a diet of Hills for 6 months and she's been great on it.All dogs are different though and it's a case of finding what suits yours the best. Supadog bu burgess is one I've heard good things about too, I think it's about 15 pounds a sack and it comes in diffeent kinds, sensitive, active, puppy etc etc, don't take that as gospal though it's only what I've heard from other pet owners, again, it's different for each dog xx


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## stigDarley

Wills1 said:


> The thing is, Skinners have (like the vast majority of other manufacturers, even Vitalin) as their protein content, meat MEAL instead of what most people would regard as proper meat. Meat MEAL usually includes ground up waste/rubbish, a lot of it pretty unlovely - have you all seen another topic on this site "the dangers of complete dog food"? I urge you to read it if you haven't already. (NB I've spent the last hour searching but can't find it now!! was written by a guy called AndyL who does have books on it to sell, but convinced me with his common sense and articles on the greed of large manufacturers, nearly all of whom use pet food as a convenient way of getting rid of their waste products arising from their human food companies)
> 
> I'll use complete as an emergency backup (currently snowed/iced in!!) but for us in the longterm, a natural diet of raw (Prize Choice frozen blocks of various minces) or cooked meat plus top quality mixer or home cooked starch such as oats, barley or rice OR the excellent trays of ready meals with pure natural ingredients produced by, eg, Forthglade, Wainwrights etc, are the way to go. The trays are about 30% more expensive but just as quick to serve as complete; the meat + mixer takes a little longer but is no more expensive.
> 
> I've yet to see a dry complete ingredients label that I'd be completely happy with...


Wainwrights trays are not good quality!!! Nature Diet trays are far superior!! i like natures menu frozen nuggets for me!! Look at Farm foods they are a holland company and I'm really impressed with there food! They use the same meat that would go into ox tail soup! I agree that some complete foods are shocking. But not everyone has the time or money to cook for there dog! There is a scale i use at the shop of whats terrible and whats better. Skinners is better then Bakers beta ect!


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## Gary Fishman

Don't mean to sound like a party pooper luvvies but my dog's got a great coat, doesn't have smelly baba, runs like a whippet (he's a collie-dog) and oozes health. I'm gonna stop frying it in lard though. Seriously, if this stuff was as bad as you say wouldn't mr average just stop buying it? Seems blummin' right to me. Mind you, i do eat chips and burgers (I know you aren't supposed to). My dog will also eat Winalot casserole too. Now that surely is a super-food? :wink:


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## stigDarley

smskar said:


> I had a quick look on Golden Acres' website. mmmm interesting... It never crossed my mind that there are companies like this. wow It reminds me a bit of the business gifts companies, here is a pen put your logo on it bingo! Personalised gift...
> 
> I am in the process of swapping from Burns to Skinners. Very friendly company indeed, they sent me loads of samples (good size sample bags too), no upset stomachs so far and the dogs love their food as it is, no need to put anything on the kibble. Less rice, more meat and much cheaper too.


It's really scary what is actually in your pets food!!!! I do really like skinners, i sell alot of there products in my pet shop. The whole reason i opened my pet shop was when I realised what they were putting into alot of pet foods!!!


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## stigDarley

growler1961 said:


> we use purina pro plan puppy for weaning & mum has this while feeding
> we have tried them all !!
> this one is our preferred choice
> dr johns dry complete is another food that suits our dogs, when a special diet is not required
> but we are considering changing to a natural diet meat bone & vegetable?
> as this is some thing we have not tried ,does any body else feed this ??


If you are going to do this then look into Natures menu Frozen nuggets as they are a complete meal in a nugget. The BARF diet is good but you have to get the balance spot on. Some people have killed there dogs by missing vital things. The best way to do the BARf diet without the worry of missing things is to feed Natures Menu Nuggets. Don't buy them from Pets at Home there more expensive there. If your near Preston Natures menu to get a list of local suppliers!


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## shazza1969

Pets at Home is that not made by Burgess in Yorkshire??


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## sequeena

Gary Fishman said:


> Don't mean to sound like a party pooper luvvies but my dog's got a great coat, doesn't have smelly baba, runs like a whippet (he's a collie-dog) and oozes health. I'm gonna stop frying it in lard though. Seriously, if this stuff was as bad as you say wouldn't mr average just stop buying it? Seems blummin' right to me. Mind you, i do eat chips and burgers (I know you aren't supposed to). My dog will also eat Winalot casserole too. Now that surely is a super-food? :wink:


Not to sound like a know it all but read the entire thread, search the forum and read reviews online. For some dogs bakers can be brilliant but a lot of owners quite honestly don't know their foot from their face. They don't know the signs of a hyper dog and just put it down to their 'personality'. A shiny coat to one owner will be determined as oily by the vet. A lot of people are taken in by shiny colours and tv advertising. Mr Average doesn't bother to do his own research and just buys what the tv tells him to.

I personally stay clear of any food with colours in it and I can't believe the price owners are willing to pay for something they could scrape up off the floor.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny simply to get a rise out of us but it just isn't going to happen.


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## shazza1969

What I don't like is a lot of these food companies including Skinners JWB etc if you look at their analysis it does not add up to 100% so what else are they putting in the food that they don't tell us?? I have asked this question with many food companies and they cannot give me an answer!


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## stigDarley

Clare7435 said:


> I swear by James wellbeloved, My dog has life long health problems thanks to the scum who had her before we got her, she has permenantly damage ligaments, skin problems and all other kinds of health difficulties and this food is the only one that suits her, the vet recomended it after she'd been put on a diet of Hills for 6 months and she's been great on it.All dogs are different though and it's a case of finding what suits yours the best. Supadog bu burgess is one I've heard good things about too, I think it's about 15 pounds a sack and it comes in diffeent kinds, sensitive, active, puppy etc etc, don't take that as gospal though it's only what I've heard from other pet owners, again, it's different for each dog xx


Supa dog has EU permitted Colourants I wouldn't reccomend anything with colourants eu permitted or not!!!! The next range up doesn't have colourants! If you want a £15 bag of dog food there are options without colourants!!!!


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## stigDarley

shazza1969 said:


> Pets at Home is that not made by Burgess in Yorkshire??


No Its made at golden acres, Burgess only make there own food!!!


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## stigDarley

Jenny Olley said:


> Burns is an excellent complete food, very pure, but some dogs struggle to keep weight on with it, which is ideal for my working dogs, but can be a problem with dogs required to carry a bit more weight.


Burns is again totally made at golden Acres, along with Arden grange Wainwrights, iams and many many more!


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## stigDarley

slakey said:


> I feed Zeus on Bakers Complete. Anyone know any faults with Bakers, and should I get better?
> 
> I also give him half a can of Butchers.
> 
> Is there better that I could offer.
> 
> Alos Milo is being fed on Beta puppy by the breeders, and I'll try get him on Bakers Puppy, or should I try something better? Really what I want is for both my boys to be on the same food when Milo can have adult food.
> 
> Thanks


It's evil stuff full of E numbers and Sugar, Which will give your dog no end of probs. 7 out of 10 dogs have to see the Vet with Diet Related probs.... it doesn't have to be expensive. But Variety is important. Your dog on the inside is the same as a wolf. In the wild a wolf wouldn't eat the same food every day and in turn the food sorces would eat the same things. So a wolf would get a good variety to help keep its gut working. You wouldn't live on beans on toast for the rest of your life without expecting to get sick. It's really the same for your dog!


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## sequeena

stigDarley said:


> It's evil stuff full of E numbers and Sugar, Which will give your dog no end of probs. 7 out of 10 dogs have to see the Vet with Diet Related probs.... it doesn't have to be expensive. But Variety is important. Your dog on the inside is the same as a wolf. In the wild a wolf wouldn't eat the same food every day and in turn the food sorces would eat the same things. So a wolf would get a good variety to help keep its gut working. You wouldn't live on beans on toast for the rest of your life without expecting to get sick. It's really the same for your dog!


Good advice but you really shouldn't mess with a dogs diet too much


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## Wills1

StigDarley - tried Nature's Diet, gave up after numerous times struggling to get lid off and having to resort to penknife after several minutes frustration, sometimes resulting in blood being spilled!!

Nature's Harvest Puppy seems excellent - fresh chicken 71%, brown rice 17%, peas, carrots, herbs, salmon oil, seaweed, vits, mins, glucosamine, chondroitin.
Use this mostly for eve feed, 0.74p per tray, and use the Wainwrights for variety, where the ingredients are fresh lamb (min 65%) lamb liver (min 5%) brown rice (ditto), mins, vits, seaweed, chicory root. With antioxidant EEC additives (the bad bit I guess, so thanks for getting me to scrutinize the labels with a fine toothcomb). As someone else said, it's the remaining 20% or so that makes you wonder. But the Nature's Diet seems superb, don't see how you could get much better than that. Seems not too bad a price either, tho more expensive than complete - but surely worth it. 

Don't have the freezer space to store the nuggets, that's why I go for the Prize Choice mince blocks, which stack neatly in small space. Add Keeper's mix for extra vits/mins that meal, plus Garlic tabs and salmon oil ditto.

Useful to have petshop owner's inside info, cheers


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## sequeena

Wills don't give up on ND too easily I too have given up on trying to rip the lids off and now just cut into it with a knife. My lot love it though and I can really see the difference in them


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## Wills1

sequeena said:


> Wills don't give up on ND too easily I too have given up on trying to rip the lids off and now just cut into it with a knife. My lot love it though and I can really see the difference in them


 OK, we do have 2 of the fish/potato ones lurking in the feedbin, so will try again, get the axe to 'em instead of letting them fester in the bin :wink:

Lot of night owls on here, just off to let the boys out for a last pee, think it might freeze in mid-stream tonight, a la Scott of the Antarctic ...


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## sequeena

Wills1 said:


> OK, we do have 2 of the fish/potato ones lurking in the feedbin, so will try again, get the axe to 'em instead of letting them fester in the bin :wink:
> 
> Lot of night owls on here, just off to let the boys out for a last pee, think it might freeze in mid-stream tonight, a la Scott of the Antarctic ...


LOL mine went out and had a lot of fun playing in the snow. Stupid dogs


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## Wills1

sequeena said:


> Wills don't give up on ND too easily I too have given up on trying to rip the lids off and now just cut into it with a knife. My lot love it though and I can really see the difference in them





james1 said:


> Im not having a go, ive pointed out that the two or so things youve suggested are wrong - if you dont like it fine but dont go trying to change peoples opinion when you havent done any research on it (your admittance) and is hardly my fault now.
> 
> I dont know why your wanting to know where people live but the petforums.*CO.UK* might be a give away that its not a US site? its really easy if you bother looking.
> 
> Its got nothing to do with the modorators to monitor what people say, they are there to make sure the smooth running of members amongst other things. Them monitoring information in each post would make them geniuses on every topic - which make its an impossibility and is why it is a "chat forum" .... for people to discuss and take on information!
> 
> Have you read this thread at all? its been going a lot longer than the 5 odd posts youve made over the last 4 pages... ive commented throughout as its something that interests me - which it doesnt seem to you, so why not post something useful rather than inciting an argument - its not my fault what youve posted is wrong. Didnt mean to hurt ya mate take it on the chin if you can.
> 
> (ps. if your going to pass on the results of a survey - its useful to know what the survey was. It helps quite a lot all round)
> 
> hmmmm :crying:


EXCUSE ME - JAMES - you are TOTALLY out of order, and your aggressive, holier than thou arrogant attitude beggars belief. A keyboard warrior poster like you brings an otherwise interesting, friendly forum right down, so I perhaps I won't bother coming on here any more.

1.Yes you patronising -, I have read this thread and spent some time trying to be HELPFUL to others; and I have not tried to change anyone's opinion - UNLIKE YOU. Merely pointed out alternate views in other posts elsewhere on this forum.

2. I was not wrong to post the links I did as I thought other members would find them interesting if they hadn't already seen. The one you criticize is on THIS FORUM written BY SOMEONE ELSE. The other one was, I pointed out, perhaps more balanced and objective, the clear implication being that the first one wasn't. Seems to me you haven't bothered to read that, or chose to selectively ignore my qualifying comments. My comment re USA based members here is clearly because of the USA related material in that article, and YOU cannot possibly know how many US based members read this INTERNET forum.

3. I will ask my dogs' breeders of 30 years' standing which professional journal the vets' survey was in; the views re bloat/dry complete is also the view of my own vets of 35 years' standing.

4. If I wasn't interested in this subject/thread, why would I have spent hours reading it and posting several times on it? Doh.

5. Can't remember what else you had a go about, and quite frankly at this time of the am cba to be bothered with you further.
Suggest you go take a long hard look at yourself and your (ahem, sorry ) dogmatic, fight-picking attitude - yes, go on, read right back - YOU picked the fight with ME. I don't pick fights, life is too short and I like a peaceful existence.


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## rsturdy

No matter what food you choose some one seems to have had a negative experience with it! I found it a nightmare trying to choose a food for my beagle pup as a first time dog owner. We finally found something that suits Maisy and that I am happy to feed her as the quality seems good, and thats Arden grange dry with some wet in the evening. To be honest as long as there isn't crap in the food and it suits the dog then that should be how every one picks the best food for them! 
I couldn't believe what some of the foods you find in supermarkets contain! But each to their own I think most people are just unaware of what is in the food - I know my sister was until I enlightened her!!


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## nellie_dean

stigDarley said:


> Burns is again totally made at golden Acres, along with Arden grange Wainwrights, iams and many many more!


Sorry, you're right on Golden Acres making Burns and Arden Grange, along with most pet shop own brands, but not Wainwrights - that's made by a small producer in Norfolk, I believe (although their name escapes me)
Just to set the record straight!

At the end of the day, pet food has to be made somewhere, and if a modern facility like Golden Acres, with hygeinic modern plant and equipment can do the job does it really matter? Having said that, of course in buying into the story of a brand like James Wellbeloved, Burns or Arden Grange you sort of expect them to be manufacturing themselves, rather than farming it out!


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## rsturdy

nellie_dean said:


> Sorry, you're right on Golden Acres making Burns and Arden Grange, along with most pet shop own brands, but not Wainwrights - that's made by a small producer in Norfolk, I believe (although their name escapes me)
> Just to set the record straight!
> 
> At the end of the day, pet food has to be made somewhere, and if a modern facility like Golden Acres, with hygeinic modern plant and equipment can do the job does it really matter? Having said that, of course in buying into the story of a brand like James Wellbeloved, Burns or Arden Grange you sort of expect them to be manufacturing themselves, rather than farming it out!


I agree some one has got to make the food! I would imagine that it is cheaper to contract it out and yes that might not be the best idea but it is a business at the end of the day and is about profit! I had a quick look on the Golden Acres website and just because they produce different brands doesnt mean that Adren Grange/Burns don't get a say in what is in their food?!


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## james1

Wills1 said:


> EXCUSE ME - JAMES - you are TOTALLY out of order, and your aggressive, holier than thou arrogant attitude beggars belief. A keyboard warrior poster like you brings an otherwise interesting, friendly forum right down, so I perhaps I won't bother coming on here any more.
> 
> 1.Yes you patronising -, I have read this thread and spent some time trying to be HELPFUL to others; and I have not tried to change anyone's opinion - UNLIKE YOU. Merely pointed out alternate views in other posts elsewhere on this forum.
> 
> 2. I was not wrong to post the links I did as I thought other members would find them interesting if they hadn't already seen. The one you criticize is on THIS FORUM written BY SOMEONE ELSE. The other one was, I pointed out, perhaps more balanced and objective, the clear implication being that the first one wasn't. Seems to me you haven't bothered to read that, or chose to selectively ignore my qualifying comments. My comment re USA based members here is clearly because of the USA related material in that article, and YOU cannot possibly know how many US based members read this INTERNET forum.
> 
> 3. I will ask my dogs' breeders of 30 years' standing which professional journal the vets' survey was in; the views re bloat/dry complete is also the view of my own vets of 35 years' standing.
> 
> 4. If I wasn't interested in this subject/thread, why would I have spent hours reading it and posting several times on it? Doh.
> 
> 5. Can't remember what else you had a go about, and quite frankly at this time of the am cba to be bothered with you further.
> Suggest you go take a long hard look at yourself and your (ahem, sorry ) dogmatic, fight-picking attitude - yes, go on, read right back - YOU picked the fight with ME. I don't pick fights, life is too short and I like a peaceful existence.


its james1. :blush:


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## trophy-sussex

Hello,
Would just like to let you know about Trophy Pet Foods. Superior quality and the content of their meat and rice is the best out there yet. Also have a hollistic range of dry food and tins.


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## tashi

Think it is time that this thread was closed.

To be honest I think that you should feed what suits your dog the best 

I have 12 dogs here and they are fed what suits them the best for coat, condition and what suits their stomachs 

One of the eldest is on what alot of you would term a 'crap' food but she is active, covered, good firm stools, lovely coat and condition but, if I changed her to one of the foods considered to be the best she gets hyper, drops her coat, and worst of all dismantles her kennel. 

I have 7 different feeds in my feed store and not all are from the same producer I find what suits my individual dog and then stick to it :smile5:

We all have differing opinions on foods and how to feed and for anyone who was looking for advice as a first time owner I feel this thread would just confuse them.


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