# Snap test for queens visiting stud



## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Hi i was wondering how you all deal with girls who visit ur studs. Do u insist on a snap test. I have done and the lady in question seems offended i would ask as her girl is an indoor cat. Advice please


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

ALL health tests and what have you should be done, without question. 

If she is offended by you asking her if her cat has been tested I would keep clear as she obviously either has the wrong attitude or is completely ignorant. 

PS - I used to live just outside Lincoln


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

You have to protect your cat Becci just explain that to her, the cat could have lived in a sterile environment but it would still need snap tests, I think she will find most breeders request this.


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Yes I have told her it is something I insist upon to everyone. I have paid to have all mine tested so dont want to risk bringing in any diseases. And as i told her anyone can say their cat is healthy Fiv can show no outwards signs and im not willing to risk Hugo. Havent heard back from her, oh well her loss im afraid. I also tried to explain that it is standard practice.

Thanks guys!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

You have to protect your boy Becci, her loss! 

How are the babies ?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

It is indeed standard practice. I don't require it because, as far as I can see, the tests are not worth very much - as I understand it they are only 90% accurate to start with, FIV has a long incubation period (so if caught recently the cat would still test negative), it is not spread by sexual transmission, the chances of a calling queen biting the stud are very low indeed, and there is a reliable vaccine against FeLV. But since it is standard practice, I don't see why anyone should be offended at your insisting on it. If I took a cat out to stud I would certainly expect to have to do the test.

Liz


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## Alansw8 (May 25, 2008)

I have it done with my girls but i actually have the one done where they send the blood off rather than the puncture type kit as this is not 100% and can show a false reading


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes that one is much more accurate, Glasgow are quoting 98% accuracy as I recall.

Liz


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

Just curious on this one, as an ex-breeder, I am painfully aware of how viruses can affect your cats and breeding environment.

I understand that the test for FIV and FeLV is important, even though it is unlikely that your cat will be at risk during the mating process.

However, why is no-one concerned about whether visiting queens are carrying calici, herpes, chlamydia or corona etc? Bearing in mind all of these are also long term viruses that cause serious symptoms in both your cats and kittens and corona in particular can mutate into FIP? All of these are highly contagious/infectious especially in a stressful environment such as going out to stud and your cat is much more likely to contract any or all of these viruses.

cm


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Couldn't agree more, Cooniemum. The things you mentioned in your final paragraph so often seem to be completely overlooked by a lot of people... that, or some owners just aren't clued up on them at all.

I think it's a contentious issue though, with no easy answer, and I think the FCoV 'thing' is more contentious than most. After 25 years of breeding cats I had to face the fact that I (or rather my cats) couldn't live in a bubble; if I wanted to continue, i.e. introducing new/different lines either in the form of buying kittens from other breeders or going out to stud (out of sheer necessity otherwise you'd grind to a halt within a couple of years), then I simply had to accept the risk that, sooner or later, there was a chance I was going to introduce something undesirable. I think it's inevitable and, sadly, I believe it comes down to not 'if' but 'when' and it's HOW the breeder ethically and morally deals with the problem; so many will bury their heads in the sand 

I think that, for some, *any* risk is unacceptable and the majority of those people will stop breeding as a result.


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

I think my issue comes from the fact that I had so many problems - from starting out, my first 2 cats had corona and calici (unknown to me) and they gave it to another girl I brought in at the same time so I neutered, got back to health and rehomed as pets to start again.

I then found out (after a girl had her kittens) that she had calici and gave it to her kittens and it was therefore all around my cattery - I already had another 2 litters due so had no choice but to deal with it. Having seen the effect on my kittens first hand, I was so frustrated when other breeders said to me that calici was so common that it wasn't even worth bothering with...tell that to my kittens who were in so much pain with mouth ulcers that they couldn't even swallow for 10 days.

So, I neutered the mum and rehomed her to an only cat home and then concentrated on the litters that I had due.

Out of the first litter, I lost 3 (probably due to the calici as they were healthy babies) and the 2nd litter appeared to be absolutely fine - not even so much as a mucky eye. However, on going to their new homes 2 of them developed calici symptoms badly.

At the same time, I brought a girl in who had diarrhoea from 2 hours of coming to me. I quarantined her, got her better and then introduced her to my cats without realising that she had a 1200+ corona titer....this infected every other cat in my cattery causing diarrhoea and flu symptoms. On emailing the breeder she advised me that most maine coons have it and therefore breeders have stopped bothering testing for it  It was at this point that I decided I wouldn't be one of those breeders and am in the process of neutering my cats that have recovered well whilst waiting for the corona titer on the others to drop before they can be neutered.

Not that this will make a blind bit of difference to anyone because I am just one less breeder to compete with but I know my conscience is clear and I will not be adding to the population of sick kittens. I now have a lot of coonies that will be staying with me as my pets and hopefully will live long and happy lives and I have to live with the fact that it was my decision to bring in a new girl that has caused them to live with FIP hanging over them :frown:

I do wonder though that if new owners were properly informed and insisted on these tests being done, whether it would make breeders sit up and take notice?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Cooniemum said:


> Just curious on this one, as an ex-breeder, I am painfully aware of how viruses can affect your cats and breeding environment.
> 
> I understand that the test for FIV and FeLV is important, even though it is unlikely that your cat will be at risk during the mating process.
> 
> ...


Yes, this is why I have a closed stud. It worries me too much. perhaps if it was a friend I knew very well who tested their cats etc in the future but yes this worries me.

I actually know of breeder who refuse to test their cats, selling cats without knowing if they carry HCM etc, don't vaccinate queens, it's terrible. GCCF should IMO make it standard practice that these tests are done and paperwork forwarded afterwards or no breeding slips.

Some of us spend a fortune and others just don't seem to give a to$$!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I entirely sympathise with your viewpoint, having a similar history myself but many, many years ago not long after I'd started breeding. A very long story short, I chose to work through, via testing every 3 months, segregating, early weaning, etc, the whole FCoV thing (fortunately, I owned relatively (compared to the numbers some breeders own) few cats - four queens).

I won't and can't go into the whole thing here as it spanned some years and, in all honesty, my thinking on it has changed over the years.. and then changed back again... and then changed again 

One thing is for certain, if a zero FCoV titre household (and keeping it that way) is the aim then cat breeding and all that it necessary encompasses is out of the question

I remember, many years ago, Diane Addie including a register on her web site where breeders could advertise kittens/stud service who had a zero titre household. I remember thinking, great idea, that list is surely going to grow. I thought the pet buying public would eventually become so clued up that breeders would have to knuckle down; that hasn't happened to any great extent and Addie's list never did grow.

Whilst I know there is an element (and probably quite a reasonable sized one!) amongst the cat fancy who are totally unethical when it comes to FIP, and anything else come to that, it's my honest belief that we're no closer to the 'ideal' because (a) research is still so gloomy and not much further forwards and (b) keeping a zero titre household is virtually impossible for breeders.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

God that last sentance makes me feel quite ill.

In your opinion how can a breeder ensure the house is completely titre free, daily litter changes ? More cleaning or do you believe thay any multi cat household is at risk ?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Mellowma, I think HCM, for example, is one thing when it comes to testing and I completely agree - if you have a breed where a gene test has been developed for it. But with something like FCoV... I can't ever see a scenario where GCCF adopt a policy of requiring all breeders to test for it - they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. It, FCoV, is SO widespread and generally speaking we still don't know how it's transmitted. I think we all know that the major route is litter tray sharing and/or transmission from queen to offspring. But there is still not a single 'expert' out there who will deny that it can't be walked in on the soles of your shoes or transmitted via your clothing. It's highly contagious and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's not relatively easy to pick up at a cat show - after all, judges only disinfect their hands, not the white coat they've held the cat against that's just been stood in its dirty show litter tray.....


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Yes, it scares me, I recently donated with other breeders and we raised around £900+ for research into it. 

I have read a lot about cat shows and cats transmitting flue etc after attending which also scares the life out of me, I feel I need to attend but I know when I so go I will have to go straight to my mums have a complete change of clothing before returning home, again this is down to breeders thinking more of their gains and not bringing these cats into cat shows, although I realise with FCoV they may not know.

Yes it's very worrying. I asked my Vet about it he said it was fairly rare but reading on various threads I have seen entire households catching it. 

There are so many if/so/but/why's/should I stop, to breeding.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry Mellowma, posted the above at the same time as yours  To be really truthful with you, I can't actually pinpoint what I'm trying to say without it coming across as flippant and 'don't give a damn' because, on the subject of FIP, I'm most certainly neither 

All I think I'm trying to say is that for anyone who breeds for X number of years, may have to go out to stud X number times, takes in X number of queens to stud, buys in X number of queens, shows, goes to breeder friends' houses... that there will always be an element of risk though I fully appreciate that some of the foregoing post a much greater risk than others.

I think all any breeder can do, if they're concerned about it, is to try and minimise the risks as far as possible. I've taken queens out to stud 3 times in the past 13 years - and even then it's been to close friends. I buy in *very* few kittens, again only ever from friends. I keep very few cats. I've shown only once in the last 4 years (though that's due in the main to other factors). the only analogy I can make is that sometimes I have to cross the road... but I don't make a habit of dodging cars, running across the M25 :lol:

I know what I do isn't perfect and doesn't by any stretch of the imagination, preclude any of my cats from FIP. But I'm just no longer prepared to put myself or my cats through endless testing, early weaning, segregation, etc. it's my hobby and meant to be fun  Not to mention as near normal, happy, normal life for my cats.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Sorry Mellowma, posted the above at the same time as yours  To be really truthful with you, I can't actually pinpoint what I'm trying to say without it coming across as flippant and 'don't give a damn' because, on the subject of FIP, I'm most certainly neither
> 
> All I think I'm trying to say is that for anyone who breeds for X number of years, may have to go out to stud X number times, takes in X number of queens to stud, buys in X number of queens, shows, goes to breeder friends' houses... that there will always be an element of risk though I fully appreciate that some of the foregoing post a much greater risk than others.
> 
> ...


No I can see where you are coming from and I also need to to the M25 thing but only because I have to, then I won't have to do that again, as for other breeders, I like cats....I am not saying I don't like people but I find some, well actually a bit more than some, a bit catty so I like to keep myself to myself. I have a lots of aquaintances but very few friends. That is my choice and I choose this as this is my hobby and I don't like other people ruining it. 

So I have choose these select friends very wisely, sometimes I get it wrong but learning all the time. It is very hard to know who is attempting help you and who sees you as competition, unfortunately, or even just don't think they like you because you rattle a lot of rubbish on forums at times.....

Gosh I have a wee bit off topic ?!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Yes, that's pretty much my experience too  Of people in the cat fancy, I mean.

Anyway, let's not go frightening ourselves senseless  And not forget that coronavirus has never killed a single cat. Ever. Chances are that that coronavirus will never mutate into FIP thank God!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Yes, that is good!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cooniemum said:


> I understand that the test for FIV and FeLV is important, even though it is unlikely that your cat will be at risk during the mating process.
> 
> However, why is no-one concerned about whether visiting queens are carrying calici, herpes, chlamydia or corona etc? Bearing in mind all of these are also long term viruses that cause serious symptoms in both your cats and kittens and corona in particular can mutate into FIP? All of these are highly contagious/infectious especially in a stressful environment such as going out to stud and your cat is much more likely to contract any or all of these viruses.


Absolutely agree!


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

I agree that corona is incredibly widespread and very hard to prevent but that doesn't mean that it's OK to let kittens go off to homes carrying it.

I am convinced that I didn't have it in my cattery as I had no symptoms of it whatsoever. I brought in a new girl who had it and we unfortunately have the enteric form now which means constant diarrhoea and sneezing too. I have been up since 6am this morning cleaning out my cat room because 3 of them have had diarrhoea overnight and spread it everywhere....my only option now is to have all of my cats living outside in pens until such time as we can clear the diarrhoea. Even then, the slightest stress could set them off again and we will be back to square one.

When you think that you could be sending kittens off to their new homes, only to go on and develop this diarrhoea that lasts for months....I don't think it is something that is acceptable, hence why I decided that I wouldn't be doing it any more.

I am now left with 7 cats who I love unconditionally, but who I can't enjoy because of the chronic diarrhoea that they have.....hopefully it will clear up but who knows?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I know we're limited here by how much background info we can give -v- posts becoming extremely lengthy! But I'm not sure what you mean by 'the enteric form' Feline coronavirus... feline enteric coronavis... both terms are interchangeable but are the same thing; a cat infected with feline enteric coronavirus.

Unless you (speaking in the third person) have ruled out, via faecel swabs, any other causes of chronic diarrhoea then I think it's impossible to put this symptom down as being as a result of coronavirus infection. I know you'll be aware that there is by far the greatest chance that your cats will not succumb to FIP but there is a very real possibility that one (or more) are, or rather will become, chronic lifeling shedders; it is a percentage of these cats that develop the chronic diarrhoea that you've mentioned.

I'm not sure how many of your 7 have chronic diarrhoea but it's unlikely in the extreme that all 7 have become lifelong shedders which would lead me to believe that either (a) there is a problem other than coronavirus or (b) you have one or two chronic shedders that are constantly reinfecting the others. Unfortunately, that can only be established by a series of RT-PCR tests on all the cats.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Cooniemum said:


> I agree that corona is incredibly widespread and very hard to prevent but that doesn't mean that it's OK to let kittens go off to homes carrying it.
> 
> I am convinced that I didn't have it in my cattery as I had no symptoms of it whatsoever. I brought in a new girl who had it and we unfortunately have the enteric form now which means constant diarrhoea and sneezing too. I have been up since 6am this morning cleaning out my cat room because 3 of them have had diarrhoea overnight and spread it everywhere....my only option now is to have all of my cats living outside in pens until such time as we can clear the diarrhoea. Even then, the slightest stress could set them off again and we will be back to square one.
> 
> ...


Oh how awful. When did you bring the new girl in ? I was in 2 minds about bring an older girl in but this has just swayed me.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry, butting in, Mellowma  You could always request that the girl you're considering having is FCoV tested to see if she has a titre? Obviously you wouldn't want to go ahead and have her if yours are all zero titre but if you really want her, it might be worth asking if her current owner will test her?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I have been emailing today and nope I have decided to leave it. 

We brought in Cassie 5 weeks ago and she is just settling down, this girl is a little older and although I like the owner I do not understand her "we don't believe in testing" which also means no HCM testing and possibly never vaccinated, which all in all is way too risky for all my furry family. 

No, I shall wait for my nice seal or seal carrying blue later in the year and that's me stopped buying cats. For a few years....(THANK GOODNESS)


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

To be honest, even my vet is stumped. To give a bit of an idea, we had no problems with diarrhoea at all apart from the very occasional upset tummy.

Brought the new girl in and she had diarrhoea immediately. I managed to get her clear within a few days with a change of diet and all was fine. Introduced her to one of my neuters and he was fine and then introduced her to a mum and 2 (vaccinated) youngsters and they were all fine. Within about 3-4 weeks though, the mum and youngsters developed diarrhoea, which did clear up after a 14 day course of stomorgyl, as did the new girl's. We went on holiday so all of our cats went into a cattery owned by family. No issues whilst they were there at all. In the meantime, I trigened all of the cat areas before the cats came back, just in case.

Some of the cats went back out in the garden pens and 2 of them came indoors along with a kitten that was waiting to be rehomed. Within 4 days, the 2 older ones had diarrhoea so they went out in the pen and I brought in 2 others that were clear. The diarrhoea cleared up within a day of being outside and the kitten never got it. The 2 others that came back in had upset tummies for a day but that was all.

All was good until a week later when I gave them some raw that gave all the cats diarrhoea and sickness overnight. This cleared with a couple of days of boiled chicken and all was back to normal. Last week, 2 of my cats started with diarrhoea again - cleared up for 3 days and then started again yesterday and overnight. The new girl was brought in April and so the corona outbreak is still fairly recent enough to be causing problems.

Gskinner: When I said enteric, I meant the one that causes the diarrhoea symptoms, rather than asymptomatic.

So, if anyone has any ideas as to what this could be then answers on a postcard!!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

TF ? I have a girl who had runs on and off and had her tested twice and both came back negative.

She had no quality of life and could not be fed anything other than her "special food" which she basically just ate to stay alive.

So, to cut a long story short after hearing of others successfully treating full households (catteries) successfully I treated mine and within 4 day, her IBS, IBD suddenly cleared up. I continued through to 14 days and she can now eat anything. 

Gaurdia could be another thing, no doubt your vet will have tested for this ?


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

TF didn't really come up because the diarrhoea is only once a day and no blood or mucous or temp either so no other clinical signs. They are going a normal amount and occurence but sometimes it is normal and sometimes it is sloppy.

Giardia would have been cleared by the stomorgyl....

Have changed them onto bozita gradually, so that I can give them an easily digestible diet that contains everything they need and I have taken away all biscuits too.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Cooniemum said:


> TF didn't really come up because the diarrhoea is only once a day and no blood or mucous or temp either so no other clinical signs. They are going a normal amount and occurence but sometimes it is normal and sometimes it is sloppy.
> 
> Just changed mine to Bozita and we have runny poos, so I am going to give them a little less next time.
> 
> ...


Are they still on any medications ?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cooniemum, I doubt very much if you have coronavirus there let alone FIP. I have had FIP and I know what it is like.

Liz


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

Definately have corona as our girl tested positive for it. Any ideas on what another cause fir the diarrhoea could be?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I can only think of TF but it wouldn't be in all your cats, I wouldn't think. Or if she does have corona then this is why she has loose stools.


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