# Eden dog food weight issues



## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

Hi I heard such good things about Eden dog food and been in contact with them as there food contained no rosemary unlike so many others but contained sage. My dog is epileptic and these can both be triggers. Apparently sage was taken out in 2013 as it can cause miscarriages in large amounts. Sent me a free sample (so good of them) and its a massive 400g bag. My dog loves it she eats it all even when I mix it with chicken (normally she leaves most kibble or wet food when chicken involved). Only problem is I heard its pretty high in fat and she always looks like she starving.

She isn't hugely overweight and the vet said she ok as can feel ribs but does need to lose a kg. She is 8.4kg and a Cavalier and i'd like her to be around 7kg as she only small. She also been neutered recently and isn't a big exercise fan, prefers the warmth but does like to play with her toys all day.

The only other dry food she likes is Bob&Lush and Fish4Dogs. Bob&Lush is to expensive. I was thinking Fish4dogs weight control but for the price you get the same what you get in lower price dog food. They also have Rosemary in their food though they said needs to be a large amount to affect seizures. Kinda puts me off.

Tried almost everything else including burns and Arden Grange and she won't eat either. Plus they both contain rosemary, did try Taste Of The Wild and wouldn't eat the Pacific one and turned her nose up at Sierra as well but now starting to eat Sierra as treats.

I was going to give her 50g of Eden and 50g of meat or wet food. She is on wainwrights but am thinking of changing to Fishmongers wet as grains can be a trigger of epi and wainwrights have rice in them. Shame because they on offer for so cheap at the moment wainwrights.

Don't know what to do she been so good on Eden last week she is bright and lively and her poos are small and easy to pick up. We just haven't been out much for months due to cold weather and snow. She really hates being cold. Would Eden be ok to keep her on or is there something else you can suggest that more diet friendly.

Bought her carrots she eating some of the carrot but spitting half it out. She kinda likes the Fish4dogs treats but then won't eat them sometimes.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

if she likes Bob & Lush which is basically Duck & potato with peas..why not search for another duck & potato based food and check ingredients for rosemary & sage?

I believe simpsons do a duck & potato grain free but I don't know what herbs are in. I think they do a selection of 4 bags for £20 but they had egg in the ingredient and we weren't sure if eggs/dairy was something my puppy was allergic to.

This one doesn't mention rosemary or sage but I think you can get 2 bags for £17 or something from their own site rather than Amazon (croft online or something?)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/allergenic-Potato-natural-Holistic-gluten/dp/B00474B6NU

I was looking at it as a cheaper one to switch JJ to when he finished his that I'd got alot cheaper with the £25 voucher off, but his vet seems to think red meats was causing problems for him with it been richer.

so we're trying a basic chicken & rice kibble as he's ok on chicken and rice cooked fresh.

I just spotted their salmon & potato one also on Amazon that specifically mentions epileptic dogs in the description

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hypo-Allerg...ve/dp/B00474CS3C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_petsupplies_4


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

I just wrote a big reply and clicked off internet by accident grrr. Thanks for finding them I especially like the 2nd one. Only problem is according to dry food index need to feed less of it than Eden and its around same price. Though the smaller bags make purchasing it easier.

I am a bit angry with simpsons as they didn't really want to help just wanted me to pay £10 for samples. I am already lumped with a 1.5kg of Fishmongers as my dog won't eat it. That would be ideal for her as well. No she has expensive taste lol. Just looked 80/20 has sage in both so no go there. I will email about the sensitive range though.

I really want Eden though because I waited so long to try it and she loves it and looks great on it but if its going to make her struggle with weight its no good. Maybe I could just bulk it up with potato? I would say exercise more but due to uk weather just isn't going to happen. Can't see summer being promising tbh.

I been looking at the dry food index and a couple foods caught my eye.

*ASHENBANK (lamb casserole)*

Price (15kg): £38.99
Suggested daily amount 230g
Daily feeding cost: 59p

Ingredientsotato (min 41%), fresh lamb (min 24%), lamb meal (min 21%), potato protein, peas, sunflower oil, lamb fat, whole linseed, pea fibre, lamb digest, minerals, vitamins, L-carnitine, carrot flakes, DL-methionine, cranberry, manno-oligosaccharides, fructo-oligosaccharides, glucosamine, MSM, yucca schidigera extract, chondroitin, beta-carotene

It also comes in duck and is very similar and rated green on dry index. But can't find a proper website for it. Only found this website which sells it and info isn't very good.

Also another food thats interesting is 
*LUPO SENSITIVE (24/10, grain free)*

Price (15kg): £39.90
Suggested daily amount: 180g
Daily feeding cost: 48p

Ingredients: Dried ground chicken meat (33%), potato flour (32%), dried ground parsnips, beet pulp, milk thistle (5%), coldpressed blended vegetable oil (5% [linseed, rapeseed, borage oil]), seaweed meal, salmon oil (2%), dried moor extract (1.5%), dried chicory (1.5%), mineral clay (1%) , dried nettle leaves (1%), dried dandelion leaves (1%), yucca schidigera.

I found this whilst typing in Ashenbank dog food and its a really good article/post about which dog food are good for epi dogs. No mention of Eden as they say shouldn't give more than 12% fat and I think Eden is like 18% (correct me if wrong).
Ashenbank, Simpsons and also Lupo is listed.
http://epi-dog.com/showthread.php?12-Dog-Food-Options-What-to-feed-your-EPI-Dog

*Edit:* Just realised EPI stands for Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency not Epilepsy (DOH) am so stupid at times. However still kinda relates as food is all grain and cereal free on list.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I tried my puppy on Eden but he had difficulties with it I don't know if its cos it contained egg or it was too rich for him with the multi meats & fish all in one food. 

It seemed to work at first making his poo's better but they longer he was on it the more they stank and he started eating them..I took him off it, my odler dog was finishing it but her poo's went sloppy then he started eating hers (but was leaving others) I tried to ask on the FB group as I'd seen someone post a pic so knew someone was about (think it was a sunday morning at the time) but my posts were deleted then I had to get admin permission to post which of course I never got.

It's weird you mentioned all the foods I tried in previous posts which would then appear on their FB wall! I'd mentioned Bob & Lush on here then someone said that the Carole the woman who worked Eden had said there food( B&L) was full of junk. which I felt was very unprofessional as its also a premium dog food. Incidentally I never had any issues with them even though their food is too rich for my pup. 

When I'd said about eggs in dog food on another forum there was a pinned post on their page about eggs not been bad for dogs! 

my answer originally went on under that post where they had openally slagged off B&L food and someone else said there dog had the problem of really smelly poo's too, another reply would immediately appear saying it goes off etc ..mine was deleted. They made a comment asking me to phone I explained I was deaf and computer was easier my reply was deleted to looked like I hadn't bothered to answer. and my original comments removed.(luckily I have screenshots of my answers on their page and her comment about Bob & Lush food). 

When I mentioned not been able to talk about it on here, suddenly it was discussed on their page but obviously controlled. The page was turned to secret and I was removed so I cannot see what they are saying but if you join and ask for a sample sending you will probably see some discussion relating to this one by the end of the day!!  

It all seems very immature I don't have time for people like that so I would not buy it nor would i recommend or be willing to finish the bag to see if the problem did go away, just from their attitude really. 

Bob & Lush did not slag them off back when I posted Eden's comment about them on their wall (with photographic proof)  I thought they should know what their competitors were saying! ..very unprofessional! 

They also openly recommended to people whose dogs wouldn't eat it to starve it until it did! ..one dog having not eaten for 3 days.. luckily the owner gave in and fed the poor dog something. These were recommendations by people who claim themselves as 'experts' in the dog food industry! 

Thankfully I managed to find a professional company who make a chicken & rice based food that seems to be agreeing with my puppy and due to finances I wouldn't be able to afford to stay on B&L anyway which was a shame as their customer services was excellent and the food is nice but £40 for a 7.5kg is too much when I could get a 15kg one for £23 to last him months! ..and that's what it came down to in the end as well as his tummy issues. btw he no longer eats poo..his own or my others dogs now they both off Eden! 

regarding the fishmongers dry..try wetting it warm water releases the aroma and add a bit of meat or fish on top to tempt him.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

eden have now removed the sage from the ingredients 
Ingredients: Chicken, 19%, Chicken 17% (from Dried Chicken), Salmon, 16%,
Herring 14% (from Dried Herring), Potato 10%, Sweet Potato 5%, Chicken Fat 5%, Duck 4% (from Dried Duck), Whole Egg 3% (from Dried Egg), Chicken Gravy 2%, White Fish 2%, Lucerne, Pea Fibre, Mineral & Vitamins, Carrot, Spinach, Apple, Joint Support Pack (Glucosamine (355mg/Kg), MSM (355mg/Kg) & Chondroitin (250mg/Kg)), Rosehips, Camomile, Burdock Root, Aniseed & Fenugreek, Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Seaweed, Cranberry and Prebiotic FOS 

i feed my dachshunds & chiweenie on eden and they are enjoying their brekkie when i fed different dry brands they use to pick at their food


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

sianrees1979 said:


> eden have now removed the sage from the ingredients
> Ingredients: Chicken, 19%, Chicken 17% (from Dried Chicken), Salmon, 16%,
> Herring 14% (from Dried Herring), Potato 10%, Sweet Potato 5%, Chicken Fat 5%, Duck 4% (from Dried Duck), Whole Egg 3% (from Dried Egg), Chicken Gravy 2%, White Fish 2%, Lucerne, Pea Fibre, Mineral & Vitamins, Carrot, Spinach, Apple, Joint Support Pack (Glucosamine (355mg/Kg), MSM (355mg/Kg) & Chondroitin (250mg/Kg)), Rosehips, Camomile, Burdock Root, Aniseed & Fenugreek, Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Seaweed, Cranberry and Prebiotic FOS
> 
> i feed my dachshunds & chiweenie on eden and they are enjoying their brekkie when i fed different dry brands they use to pick at their food


Yes - Eden is the first dry food Whisper is happy to eat. She has it mixed with wet but thoroughly enjoys her food for the first time since we've had her. 

Will be sticking with it. I haven't noticed any negative effects poo-wise or otherwise. Very happy with it. x


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

Hanlou said:


> Yes - Eden is the first dry food Whisper is happy to eat. She has it mixed with wet but thoroughly enjoys her food for the first time since we've had her.
> 
> Will be sticking with it. I haven't noticed any negative effects poo-wise or otherwise. Very happy with it. x


same here, i don't feed the recommended amount though i feed 15-20g for brekkie then if they get it for main dinner they have 25-30g


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

I use Eden too!

The only effect we had was for the first few weeks when Ladys poo's stunk to high heaven. I am now thinking that this was because I switched over too fast (for her)- did it over 2 weeks as suggested but it seems that it may have been too fast.

She is still slim and full of boundless energy. 

I also think that there is a difference between good and bad fats. I personally dont like carbs in dog food and eden is no exception, although their carb source is good (potato's mainly). IMVHO (and cannot substantiate it in any way lol - just my view), is that its the carbs along with over feeding and under excercising in dog foods which causes the weight gain.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

sianrees1979 said:


> same here, i don't feed the recommended amount though i feed 15-20g for brekkie then if they get it for main dinner they have 25-30g


Lady doesnt eat the recommended amount either, she has 10g 3 x day. It works for her she is lovely and slim and still a growing pup.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

sianrees1979 said:


> eden have now removed the sage from the ingredients
> Ingredients: Chicken, 19%, Chicken 17% (from Dried Chicken), Salmon, 16%,
> Herring 14% (from Dried Herring), Potato 10%, Sweet Potato 5%, Chicken Fat 5%, Duck 4% (from Dried Duck), Whole Egg 3% (from Dried Egg), Chicken Gravy 2%, White Fish 2%, Lucerne, Pea Fibre, Mineral & Vitamins, Carrot, Spinach, Apple, Joint Support Pack (Glucosamine (355mg/Kg), MSM (355mg/Kg) & Chondroitin (250mg/Kg)), Rosehips, Camomile, Burdock Root, Aniseed & Fenugreek, Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Seaweed, Cranberry and Prebiotic FOS
> 
> i feed my dachshunds & chiweenie on eden and they are enjoying their brekkie when i fed different dry brands they use to pick at their food


I already said in first post sage been removed thanks though. Sounds like you had a bad time with Eden inca I seen your previous post about them and was kinda putting me off. Could just be whoever in charge of Facebook is a tool. They wanted me to ring them first as well probs try to hard sell told them had to be by email. I will finish off 400g sample discuss with vet and go from there. I am going to try contact golden eagle and acana about samples.

I already tried all kinds with the fishmongers dry warmed it up added meat and eats everything but. To large and flat for her I think. She a spoilt madam vet calls her a little princess.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

RachRubyx said:


> I already said in first post sage been removed thanks though. Sounds like you had a bad time with Eden inca I seen your previous post about them and was kinda putting me off. Could just be whoever in charge of Facebook is a tool. They wanted me to ring them first as well probs try to hard sell told them had to be by email. I will finish off 400g sample discuss with vet and go from there. I am going to try contact golden eagle and acana about samples.
> 
> I already tried all kinds with the fishmongers dry warmed it up added meat and eats everything but. To large and flat for her I think. She a spoilt madam vet calls her a little princess.


well you could always starve her till she eats it as the experts advise, or alternatively find another one she likes! ..if she seems to like the duck flavour I'be tempted to try another duck one that's maybe cheaper in case she doesn't like that either.

My dogs have loads of the interactive food puzzles so always looking for a kibble that fits in those so they can play with their favourite toys..lol!

JWB do a duck but I don't know whether it has rosemary or not? I don't think they do samples though. or try a search for 'foods suitable for epileptic dogs etc'


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

I already searched and not much comes up mostly say home cool. Tried it and very expensive and as she little a lot goes to waste. I have starved her with it for two days and she wouldn't eat it at all. Doesn't like all duck flavour as only tolerated skinners duck after a day starving. I don't want her blood levels to drop which can cause seizure so don't like starving her. 
Also wasn't keen on burns duck at all or any of there food. Plus dont really rate it as my auntie feeds burns and nature diet and he does a lot of poos and its light and smelly and his coat isn't as silky or nice as my dogs. 

She really did love bob and lush but so expensive. I look into jwb but I think they contain rice and want no grains


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

have a look on Which Dog Food.co.uk if you already haven't


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

RachRubyx said:


> I already searched and not much comes up mostly say home cool. Tried it and very expensive and as she little a lot goes to waste.


Can I ask why so much went to waste? Home cooking can work out much, much cheaper if you're clever with sourcing your ingredients. You control exactly what's going into it, and surely you can make a batch up and freeze the leftovers? I'm pretty sure this is what anyone homecooking for their dogs does?

Alternatively, if you've found a kibble she loves - either Eden or Bob & Lush, then why not stick to small amounts of that and add a proportion of the wet - either home cooked or the Fishmongers trays?. Might make her feel like she's eating more, as well as keeping your costs down?


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

I followed the recipe from Canine Guardian Angel and was to much. I don't have freezer space and it was alot of washing dishes. I put to much water in slow cooker as well. I may give it a go but you need to supplement and that can be just as costly as expensive food.

I think I probs will keep her on Eden and just mix with wet food or homecooked meals. 

Just developed tonsillitis today so heads a mess 

I am going to look into the other food though as they actually cheaper than Eden.

I am an avid fan of whichdogfood but think sometimes the ratings slightly off just my opinion though.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

JWB do a grain free too but I just noticed duck isn't one of the flavours they have a small bite adult one too, if the small kibble size is important. though they all see m to be the regular flavours with rice.

B&L did have an offer for 2 bags together and they knock £10 off but still seems to be about £70 for 15kg...I just paid £23 for JJ's new food..it is big difference cost wise.

Personally I wouldn't risk starving a dog until it ate the Eden especially if it was epileptic and doing so would possibly trigger a seizure!! ..just to stay on one brand????..sorry my dogs health would come first!  that's just ridiculous..not to mention potentially fatal for your poor dog!


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

IncaThePup said:


> JWB do a grain free too but I just noticed duck isn't one of the flavours they have a small bite adult one too, if the small kibble size is important. though they all see m to be the regular flavours with rice.
> 
> B&L did have an offer for 2 bags together and they knock £10 off but still seems to be about £70 for 15kg...I just paid £23 for JJ's new food..it is big difference cost wise.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't risk starving a dog until it ate the Eden especially if it was epileptic and doing so would possibly trigger a seizure!! ..just to stay on one brand????..sorry my dogs health would come first!  that's just ridiculous..not to mention potentially fatal for your poor dog!


I know if they don't like the food they don't like it. I will look about the jwb and ruby is a little sod. She just ate a small bowl of Eden and I mixed some fishmongers dry with it. She ate it all including fishmongers. I mixed salmon oil with it so could be that. Going to try mixing mince with the juice with fishmongers dry tonight.

£70 for 15kg is way to expensive I just coming around to idea of £50 for Eden. Am just a student on job seekers and have to pay keep and phone bill :s. I volunteer like in charity shop but no jobs going. So all my extra goes on dog stuff including vet bills.

Edit: So typical of dogs making a liar out of you, she just ate fishmongers dry which she normally won't touch. Think she likes her biscuits oily ( she doesn't like them wet). Only issue I just checked the ingredients on fishmonger packet and rosemary extract. It may be ok as extract is small amount but I just don't want to risk it. She soon off her meds id say she got about 2 weeks if that. She having 1/4 of 15mg tablets once a day. Though packet contains 28 tablets. Don't want to rush her off them as can cause more damage.

So back to the drawing board. I will see how she gets on with Eden if she gaining weight I look into different brand. The jwb cereal free is pricey and also feed a lot more than Eden. She now likes taste of the wild and they sent me ones lower in fat which is sierra mountain and the fish pacific one. Same price as Eden and no rosemary or sage. It's something to think about anyways.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Arden Grange do a sensitive ocean fish & potato that maybe cheaper than TOTW.

Nutritional Premium Dog and Cat Food - Arden Grange

monster pet supplies & pet supermarket often have foods cheaper than other places or sometimes subscribe & save on Amazon works out cheaper when you decide on one.

Vitalin sensitive is around £30 for 15kg and is grain free (chicken & potato) not sure if its got herbs in though? ..but can get free sample.

Applaws is meant to be a good one if you dog doesn't have problem with eggs and is on monster pet supplies for 2 x 12kg bags for £65 ..£33 for one 12kg bag. (again not sure about the herbs so you'd have to check through the ingredients) but if you're on a budget and go for a brand thats sold at many different places you can get the best deal at the time you need a bag of food.

JJ is on a working dog food and they are often VAT free but they tend to contain rice. I don't know if Skinners do a working dog one with no grains at all in maybe someone else will know but they do quite a big selection of working dog foods cheap.

CSJ has a 'no grainer' that other companies sell as their own brand cheaper...but I can't remember where I saw the link now..somewhere on here I think!


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## Pinkchi (Feb 5, 2011)

I think swapping around so many different foods is part of the problem as to why she is fussy.

Find something that works for both of you and stick with it. Set mealtimes, no treats inbetween if not eaten a meal, pick up any left and put down at next mealtime. Problem solved

I've found with Eden I only feed my dog half of what I did than with James wellbeloved and its a far better quality.

I'd stick with Eden and see how she does and adjust the quantity to her waistline. If she acts hungry, is it actual hunger or just her being used to treats? You'd be suprised how much just 1 or 2 treats a day can affect their weight.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

IncaThePup said:


> Arden Grange do a sensitive ocean fish & potato that maybe cheaper than TOTW.
> 
> Nutritional Premium Dog and Cat Food - Arden Grange
> 
> ...


I already have samples for *Arden Grange* I said needed to be no rosemary and no grains. I heard that the performance had added taurine which is good for epiletic dogs. They sent performance and sensitive fish and potato, she turned her nose up at both as kibble isn't small and also they both contain rosemary.

I was looking at *Applaws* as she liked the cats applaws dry food and they did lite version and always good offer on applaws. However all the food contains rosemary  plus customer service is iffy they where good to start but I couldn't reply back to email address as keeping getting errors and every other email sent fine to other people. Plus they said get someone trained in nutrition to email me and they never did.

She has been on *skinners* before the duck and rice as was good price but I want to get away from rice. Good food though.

Am not than keen on *CSJ no grainer *overpriced can get much better for cheaper.

*Vitalin* looks promising though and only 9% fat going to contact them.

I know swapping around food isn't good but am just trying them out. She made it obvs she prefers duck flavours to others and that she likes Eden, Fish4dogs and Bob&Lush and Taste of the Wild. Noticed how they all more expensive (what a snob she is) but they have more meat so more appetising and Eden and F4D small bite and she prefers that. I think she has gotten use to dry kibble now and actually likes it. With everything it takes time.

I know shouldn't give her treats I actually give her 90g so that 10g can be treats which is normally little bits of liver I have cooked or chicken. My mum is very soft with her though and gives her little bits of her meals and biscuits and so on. She says am heartless and she wants her to live a happy life not be sad and miserable on horrible dog food. No talking sense to her and Ruby has those big eyes that you cant resist.

I have bought carrots and also fish4dogs treats and she has been snacking on them.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just a thought and you may have done so already but being overweight, exercise intolerance or not wanting to do much exercise, feeling the cold and prefering warmth and seizures too, can all be signs of hypothyroidism.
Apparently its in the cavalier King charles as a breed too. Mostly the auto immune version that can make an appearance under 3 years old.

The vet may have already tested her, but if he hasnt might be something to consider perhaps?

Hypothyroidism and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

Clinical Signs of Canine Hypothyroidism

If your dog has seizures check the thyroid for low thyroid function or hypothyroidism

Often if tests come back low normal in the reference range a lot of vets class it as normal and for a young dog especially it shouldnt be. They also dont do the whole profile sometimes only doing one part on an inhouse test.
Really minimum should be Free T4, Total T4, TSH and Thyroglubulin auto anti bodies (TGAA) The last parrt tells you if it is auto immune, if the anti bodies are there and high even if the rest is OK at the moment then at some point they wont be and the dog will sink into hypo thyroidism.

As the signs you have mentioned in your first post that she has are pretty classic, it might be worth considering. One of mine has it and she was always cold and started having seizures, been fine since she had they thyroid replacement and hers is the auto immune version too.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks for the info I ask the vet (going in couple weeks) about it and see if can test for it. I was also thinking about having test for low blood sugar levels as this can also be a common trigger.

To be honest I think its alot to do with the breed. They are known for being lap dogs and loving the comfy warm. She will go out in cold weather but when its cold its generally raining or snowing and she doesn't like to get wet (common in cavs).She isn't exercise intolerant as such as she will walk for miles on a nice day. She also plays in the house and garden everyday chasing cat or making me throw toys. They just aren't big into exercise cavaliers. Short walks a few times a day is perfect for them. I know she is overweight due to us feeding her to much as she is greedy (has been since 8 weeks when we got her) and giving her to much as bowl doesn't look full (When dog bowls are created for bigger dogs not small ones) and also having human treats all the time. She is not massively overweight about 1kg/2kg but it makes the difference I suppose. Need to cut out the bad habits now she been neutered and getting that little bit older (sob). Already changed to cat bowls than dog so doesn't look like a tiny amount. Two meals a day 45g each time so blood levels better and also won't be as hungry. Healthy snacks like cooked liver and chicken, carrots and fish4dogs rather than Pedigree etc. Just cutting out the human treats really, she loves sweet stuff and crisps. Me and my mum going on a health kick after easter so won't have bad stuff anyway to give.

Though am not trying to make excuses that she doesn't have it but there is reasons behind her not liking cold and being overweight. Though I will be getting the test as better safe than sorry.

How must is the test generally and what should I ask the vet for? Just a hypothyroidism test ?I want to be direct so not messed about and the correct tests are done.

Also worth a mention when we got the regular blood tests for seizures that tests the liver etc it came back as a slightly low red blood count. Put it down to her just been in season and also having fleas at the time. The vet didn't see the need to test for anything else. Moved to new vets an she said she like her to have blood test to see how she getting on now she been neutered and weaning off tablets. However one of the signs was a low red blood count listed. Plus you say yours has a seizure when cold? Well I always thought that her seizures where linked and not random. She would have a seizure around every month-6weeks and every time she had just been in the garden for awhile and it was the summer months from say April-August she had seizures. Wonder if heat is also a trigger for it as well as cold. Its to much of a coincidence that the 4 times she fitted she had just came straight from garden. Someone said about lack of oxygen causing seizures but garden is small and she doesn't really run around in it as it has a walled area and decking. Plus she also runs like mad on beach and park in the summer months and no signs of oxygen problems or seizures. Isn't a problem in our garden so much as she had her 3rd seizure in partners house and had been in garden (he also has small garden). Thought it could be allergies like pollen but vet said no won't be that. We removed ivy from our garden as well (cost a fortune) because this is toxic and was wondering if she ate that. However can't be as partner doesn't have ivy.

Anyway thanks for the info again real eye opener. If she does have that then will the treatment for that problem make the seizures stop? also does it affect how long they live?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RachRubyx said:


> Thanks for the info I ask the vet (going in couple weeks) about it and see if can test for it. I was also thinking about having test for low blood sugar levels as this can also be a common trigger.
> 
> To be honest I think its alot to do with the breed. They are known for being lap dogs and loving the comfy warm. She will go out in cold weather but when its cold its generally raining or snowing and she doesn't like to get wet (common in cavs).She isn't exercise intolerant as such as she will walk for miles on a nice day. She also plays in the house and garden everyday chasing cat or making me throw toys. They just aren't big into exercise cavaliers. Short walks a few times a day is perfect for them. I know she is overweight due to us feeding her to much as she is greedy (has been since 8 weeks when we got her) and giving her to much as bowl doesn't look full (When dog bowls are created for bigger dogs not small ones) and also having human treats all the time. She is not massively overweight about 1kg/2kg but it makes the difference I suppose. Need to cut out the bad habits now she been neutered and getting that little bit older (sob). Already changed to cat bowls than dog so doesn't look like a tiny amount. Two meals a day 45g each time so blood levels better and also won't be as hungry. Healthy snacks like cooked liver and chicken, carrots and fish4dogs rather than Pedigree etc. Just cutting out the human treats really, she loves sweet stuff and crisps. Me and my mum going on a health kick after easter so won't have bad stuff anyway to give.
> 
> ...


Looking back after my one had subtle signs, where the others (same breed) would lie on sofas of beds and get hot after awhile and move off, she would stay put curled up for hours. My daughter and several people remarked that she had a sad face, often with hypo thyroid they get something called tragic expression. Although she didt have exercise intolerance as such, when she played with her Husky pal in an enclosed area, she would always have enough before he did. Which I put down to being a Malamute/sibe cross and being larger, plus she had a long walk to the park first which he didnt, and with slighly warmer days too sometimes it seemed to explain it. She then had a odd episode, disorientated, drooling buckets, dilated pupils, uncordinated which I rushed her to the vets for and they put it down to something toxic as she had ot long been back for a walk. She was OK for a month then had a grand mal full seizure in the garden. They did a neurology refferal straight away, but as hypo Thyroid is a big problem in both breeds she is crossed with
and I knew of the link, I asked them to do a Thyroid test. I got the refferal before the test was back, the neurologist said he would have doe it anyway, she had other tests and an MRI including a liver bile acid there, and all was fine, however the Thyroid came back and she was seriously hypothyroid. She hasnt had a seizure now for two years.

Hypo thyroid is the lack of thyroid hormones, the thyroid gland doesnt produce the hormone. It can be for two reasons auto immune where the body doesnt recognise the thyroid as itself and destroys it and with it the ability to make thyroid hormones, which often appears in younger age (Nanuq was only 2) or there is idiopathic unknow cause where it just goes on the blink for unknown reasons, Ive had several with that form in older age, Daisy has the idiopathic version too. Ive got is aswell diagnosed xmas before last.

Treatment is the same for dogs and humans you/they just have to take daily thyroid hormone replacement in tablet form for life and have regular blood tests to make sure the levels are OK. It doesnt shorten life at all, quite the opposite in fact, if you have hypo thyroid thats untreated then it can cause real problems. It can manifest in different ways too as you can see by the clinical signs I linked you too.

The full blood test for the profile Total T4, Free T4, TSH and TGAA thyroglobulin auto antibodies is about 90/95 £ The TGAA tells if its the auto immune version or not.

It was just when you mentioned, the dislike of cold or feeling the cold, not being a fan of exercise, being overweight, and with the seizures too that can be linked, I just thought I would mention it as the first symptoms even without seizures are some of the most common. Then when I checked that it is known in the cavalier too I thought it may be worth a mention. If you know there is reasons why they it may not be that, but I thought it was worth maybe considering.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

Worth getting test done just incase and will help rule out that issue. If she does have hypo throid issues then would it still be ok to feed Eden as its high in fat compared to other dry food. Just like to know before I buy a big bag. I think I read that a low fat diet is recommended. In that case probs be better off with taste of the wild.
If she does have hypothyroid then does that meant she isn't epileptic but the seizures brought on by hypothyroid. If that's the case she should be able to have rosemary extract and open my option to fish4dogs weight control food.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RachRubyx said:


> Worth getting test done just incase and will help rule out that issue. If she does have hypo throid issues then would it still be ok to feed Eden as its high in fat compared to other dry food. Just like to know before I buy a big bag. I think I read that a low fat diet is recommended. In that case probs be better off with taste of the wild.
> If she does have hypothyroid then does that meant she isn't epileptic but the seizures brought on by hypothyroid. If that's the case she should be able to have rosemary extract and open my option to fish4dogs weight control food.


The reason why they put on weight with hypothyroid and people too, is that it can have a metabolic effect the metabolism is slowed down and you dont burn food up so it turns to fat, even if you dont eat excessively.

If she were Hypothyroid and as its linked to seizures and be a cause, assuming there is no other underlying cause too that can be causing them, then there is a chance they could stop completely, Nanuqs was obviously down to Hypothyroid alone, as since being on the medication now for over two years shes never had another since.

Hypothyroid is on the minimum diagnostic list as a test for seizuring dogs anyway to be ruled out along with other causes before true epilepsy is finally diagnosed or it should be.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

It's interesting to read this as I was born with my thyroid not working and had epilepsy as a child which seem to stop after I reached age 7. 

Many years later (was at a around 26/27yrs old) I started having symptoms again and was put back on Epilim & Sabril due to my history. They also later stopped and I came off the meds and never had another once since but I was on them for a few years and later developed Cerebellar Ataxia in my early thirties.

I've also been deaf since age 16 which happened after they significantly lowered my dose when I was changed between childrens specialist and adult one as he felt it was too high and other one had always kept it high so as not to stunt growth etc. 

There is a connection between weight I was heavy baby and chubby but when they got dose right and I was more active I was slimmer. though again once thyroid went wrong in early thirties and I ended up in wheelchair too the weight piled back on. I was always frozen it'd be boiling outside and people walking around in shorts and vests and I'd be under a duvet on sofa shivering and exhausted from doing the smallest task! I had Inca at this time too she was a young puppy so I was constantly exhausted just getting through the day with her walks and training! ..in fact I was tested for MS, chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia but they also did a full bloods panel and found my T3 was dangerously low and my TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone in brain) was sky high..trying to get my thyroid to make more but mine has never worked since birth so it could not respond as a normal thyroid would be making more.

People underestimate the damage an underactive thyroid can do and the amount of areas it can affect as its essentially producing the hormones that feed your brain and in turn make everything work.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

IncaThePup said:


> It's interesting to read this as I was born with my thyroid not working and had epilepsy as a child which seem to stop after I reached age 7.
> 
> Many years later (was at a around 26/27yrs old) I started having symptoms again and was put back on Epilim & Sabril due to my history. They also later stopped and I came off the meds and never had another once since but I was on them for a few years and later developed Cerebellar Ataxia in my early thirties.
> 
> ...


Its so true I felt terrible had all the tests going and mine turned out to be hypothyroid too, you get exhausted doing the slightest thing, I cant cope when its hot yet at times I feel cold. Prefer the cold though as you can adjust what you are wearing in the heat you cant do anything. it affected my joints too, could barely move by the end of the day with pain and stiffness. It is a terrible problem, and the poor dogs cant say how they are feeling.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

Think its more common than you would think in humans and animals. I suffer for a slightly low underactive thyroid. Its started last couple years and I always feel cold and gain weight easily and really stiff joints but only in early 20s. Had tests done and came back slightly off but they don't think meds needed yet but am going to ask to be looked into further. Its weird as I have excessive sweating (hyperhidrosis) but always cold. My hands and feet are literally like ice but drip with sweat. 

I am kinda hoping Ruby does and doesn't have it. Its a answer at least but i'd rather nothing be wrong with her obvs. She has seizured for nearly 2 years now but phenobarbital helps control the thyroid so I read so could be reason.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RachRubyx said:


> Think its more common than you would think in humans and animals. I suffer for a slightly low underactive thyroid. Its started last couple years and I always feel cold and gain weight easily and really stiff joints but only in early 20s. Had tests done and came back slightly off but they don't think meds needed yet but am going to ask to be looked into further. Its weird as I have excessive sweating (hyperhidrosis) but always cold. My hands and feet are literally like ice but drip with sweat.
> 
> I am kinda hoping Ruby does and doesn't have it. Its a answer at least but i'd rather nothing be wrong with her obvs. She has seizured for nearly 2 years now but phenobarbital helps control the thyroid so I read so could be reason.


You should get yours rechecked, I kept having tests and they said they were OK the local health authority only does a TSH not the rest of it. If they dont think the TSH is that high, then they dont bother checking the rest.
In dogs and Humans they seem to wait until its got so ultra low you are getting more and more symptoms and being really poorly instead of putting you on a low dose earlier on. Everything can be just about clinging to the bottom of the reference range and as long as its barely in it they say low normal thats fine.

I got to a point where I was better but still not great and they wouldnt up my dose. Again was only using TSH to monitor, Which in my opinion was stupid how can they give you T4 and not measure the dose of that.
In the end I went to Barts endocrine Department who do the full Thyroid profile and I wasnt on a high enough dose at all.

I was the same as you, skin feels cold, but absolutely dripping on exertion.
You cant control your body temperature, so are either dripping or freezing cold as you cant cope with extremes either end. I could barely move with pain and stiffness in the end too. I used to walk the dogs miles a day, at the worst I could walk them nowhere near as far and even then was so exausted by the end I could barely put one foot in front of the other. At the worst I could clean two windows maximum and by the time the second net curtain was washed and ready to go up I could barely get up the ladder to hang it.
Im sure if they started treatment earlier before waiting for it to sink so far you wouldnt have to go through the symptoms you do. The lower it gets the worse you are and the more physical problems you get. Hypothyroid can make you extrememly depressed and low emotionally too, I had to go on citalopram in the end as well. Really wasnt in a good place mentally or physically. So follow yours up and insist your obviously low the tests already confirmed that, all thats going to happen is that it will get lower and lower and the more symptoms you will get still.

I wish the vets or docs themselves had it sometimes, they wouldnt then say Oh its low normal and OK. They should try operating and trying to get through the day on low normal thyroid function its far from OK.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

Just getting around to pestering them. Just spent a month going back forth to hospital (8 buses 3x a week) was for iontophoresis and didn't work am first person nurse said she had that it hasn't worked for but neither did botox. Am wondering now does thyroid issues play a part in the excessive sweating. It took forever to be referred to hospital with excessive sweating doctors kept putting me off. Can't do anything at moment bed bound with severe tonsillitis (literally just got over another case of it) and now a tooth infection.

Ruby had an egg this morning I give her a hard boiled egg about twice a week in replacement of breakfast meal is this ok?

Am hoping don't have to come off Eden because I thought I finally found a suitable food she likes. 

What do you feed yours sled? I got a feeling its raw


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RachRubyx said:


> Just getting around to pestering them. Just spent a month going back forth to hospital (8 buses 3x a week) was for iontophoresis and didn't work am first person nurse said she had that it hasn't worked for but neither did botox. Am wondering now does thyroid issues play a part in the excessive sweating. It took forever to be referred to hospital with excessive sweating doctors kept putting me off. Can't do anything at moment bed bound with severe tonsillitis (literally just got over another case of it) and now a tooth infection.
> 
> Ruby had an egg this morning I give her a hard boiled egg about twice a week in replacement of breakfast meal is this ok?
> 
> ...


They have James Wellbeloved duck and rice adult for breakfast, and raw meat veggies and a very small amount of whole grain fresh rice for their main meal.

Egg should be fine some people even give a raw egg once or twice a week.

Thyroid does seem to play a part with sweating Iv e got the idopathic version gone on the blink for unknown reasons and my friends got the auto immune version. We both look like we jumped in the nearest pool fully clothed at times its so bad. My friend too feels cold and then cant get the layers off quick enough at other times. Hot days and exertion seems to be the worse to spark it off. In fact before treatment it used to happen just sitting virtually doing nothing, then next minute freezing cold.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

They only do the one test cos its cheaper but your T4 can read normal while T3 is low!..if you are on T4 tablets and are taking them then your blood tests results will show the levels you have taken...however your body then converts T4 to T3 and THATS the important one that feeds your cells etc 

If your body is not converting the right amount of T4 to T3 you will still have symptoms despite been on medication! if you're thyroid works a little and is just a little on the low side it may be able to compensate by making a bit more when TSH levels go up. If it doesn't work at all or you've had it removed (usually from cancer or HYPERthyroidism) it won't be able to compensate. 

If there's not enough to go around your heart and lungs etc things that work without us thinking about it..get 'fed' first and peripheral systems have to do without so things like circulation (freezing/blue hands and feet) hearing and sight difficulties, weight gain will be your first symptoms. your body starts hoarding fat for when its got the energy to process it later, we put weight on eat even less to try and compensate and body then has less food to convert to energy and less thyroxine to help make everything work so starts holding onto EVERYTHING! ..hence the massive weight gain which we then find impossible to get back off again! 

The good news is its reversible! I went up to 16st and despite been in wheelchair the last 7 years I managed to get back down to 9st 2! I think that's partly due to my condition though as the Ataxia actually causes me to burn more cals per task than I did previously. so when nurse told me to increase cals due to ataxia I just didn't for a while and dropped the excess weight quite quickly..problem I have now ironically even with under active thyroid is staying out of the underweight category! ..as I burn an extra 1,000 a day in involuntary movements and just the effort it takes me typing, getting dressed moving round in manual chair etc. 

Like you say we can discuss these things with our doctors but our pets can't tell us. The splitting headaches were another thing and sometimes wonder if Inca has them as she'll sleep with one paw over her eyes if there's a light on. can dogs get headache?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

IncaThePup said:


> They only do the one test cos its cheaper but your T4 can read normal while T3 is low!..if you are on T4 tablets and are taking them then your blood tests results will show the levels you have taken...however your body then converts T4 to T3 and THATS the important one that feeds your cells etc
> 
> If your body is not converting the right amount of T4 to T3 you will still have symptoms despite been on medication! if you're thyroid works a little and is just a little on the low side it may be able to compensate by making a bit more when TSH levels go up. If it doesn't work at all or you've had it removed (usually from cancer or HYPERthyroidism) it won't be able to compensate.
> 
> ...


My friend cant covert T4 to T3 so has to take the T3 instead, it just doesnt work otherwise.

Funny enough thats something I never connected either I only used to get headaches very very rarely and then suddnely started getting really bad ones and pretty frequently at one point. Never even thought it might be thyroid until you mentioned it.

Dont see why dogs couldnt get headaches as such, they get a lot of the things we do. Other then that thyroid can come with ocular problems so maybe she may even be light sensitive even.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

I suffer from migranes as well but thats genetic and due to hormones and stress. It comes from my dad and he has remarried and had children, my half brother has just hit puberty and starting getting migranes.

So its worth getting the proper £90 test for ruby as the t4 won't bring up if she has an issue. I have looked into episodic falling and cavalier syringomyelia she doesn't have any real sypms of either. She has a proper seizure body shaking and mouth foaming and loosing control of bladder. She doesn't look or seem depressed the opposite she always looks happy. I couldn't afford the MRI scan and the vet said if had insurance go for it but she doesn't display any other signs so be best to medicate for epilepsy if couldn't afford mri.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RachRubyx said:


> I suffer from migranes as well but thats genetic and due to hormones and stress. It comes from my dad and he has remarried and had children, my half brother has just hit puberty and starting getting migranes.
> 
> So its worth getting the proper £90 test for ruby as the t4 won't bring up if she has an issue. I have looked into episodic falling and cavalier syringomyelia she doesn't have any real sypms of either. She has a proper seizure body shaking and mouth foaming and loosing control of bladder. She doesn't look or seem depressed the opposite she always looks happy. I couldn't afford the MRI scan and the vet said if had insurance go for it but she doesn't display any other signs so be best to medicate for epilepsy if couldn't afford mri.


Certainly worth discussing with the vet, Nanuqs 2nd seizure was a full blown one as you have described. It is something that should be ruled on anyway when dogs start to seizure. It may not be bt with her other symptoms too it could be possible.


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