# A (Rambling) Novice Question



## Suno (Dec 3, 2012)

Hello there!
Im new here, obviously, and I hope you can help me out with some advice.
Ive put off doing this, as people on other forums have been rather brash about their feelings and I am not of the same mindset as horrible people who like to put other people down 

So, recently I have decided (after much thought) of getting a nice pedigree kitten to look after.
Choosing what I wanted was easy enough (Blue BSH ) but finding the right one for me is getting excessively more difficult.
Extreame-variations in prices are being thrown around (sometimes in the difference of £400!), accusations of future cruelty and just -- well, ive been thrown in the deep end of a deep blue BSH sea!

This is the problem im facing (and why it is relevent to this sub-forum. I ramble but I have a reason! lol):

My family said they would throw in some money to buy a kitten but only if they can get kittens out of it in the future (< wanting to do this makes me cruel according to one breeder on kittenlist who declined to explain anymore.)

I'd like to breed kittens. I have the time, money, patience and house to do it all - and even thought I doubt i'd make money out of it, I think it would be a lovely thing to do.
The problem is, I dont really want to breed cats for show (and I know my family wouldnt want a show-cat). I seriously have no arguement for or against it, it's just something I dont think I would like to do.
My sister has pointed out to me that "What if somebody buys a kitten from you with the intention of showing it?"

My response was "Well, im going to have the pedigree and vet paperwork for my cat (when I eventually get one) and im sure the stud's owner will have his too - wouldnt that be enough for the buyer to register the cat for show themselves?

So that is my question - am I reading to much into it? Couldnt I just breed a few litters (the first one going to my family) and leave it to the new owners to register their kittens for show?

Im sorry, I know I ramble on.
Please dont be mean to me  I just want to know what im getting myself in for before I take that leap.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

My initial question would be why would you be against showing at all?

The idea of showing was to ensure that breeding wasn't way off the mark for the breed so if you don't show how do you know if you are helping or hindering the breed?

If I were you, I'd seriously consider why you want to do it & what you would do in really dire situations. Could you cope with kittens dying, would you do it all ethically, what are you adding to the breed, would you be able to manage a hormonal young queen calling at 5 months who wants to go to stud? The likelihood of you making money if you do it properly is zilch.

There are a lot of backyard breeders out there breeding ill & poor quality BSH. Would you be adding to this? Reason I ask as the show thing suggests that you aren't thinking about the breed...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I just want to know what im getting myself in for before I take that leap


Can't fault you for that and your questions show how us breeders take knowledge of the system for granted sometimes.

You need to buy your girl from a breeder who knows you want to breed from her. If you try and do it on the sly you won't be able to take her to a pedigree stud or register her kittens as pedigrees because she has to be specially registered for breeding. It is against GCCF rules for a stud owner to take in a queen which is not registered for breeding. There's also the point which has to be made that you need to buy your first breeding queen from an experienced and highly regarded breeder. Reputable stud owners are naturally suspicious of unknown faces so you need either a very fine pedigree behind your girl or an introduction from a well known breeder - preferably both.

There's no doubting whether you'd make money - you won't. It will cost you. You're meant to do it for the love of it.



> My family said they would throw in some money to buy a kitten but only if they can get kittens out of it in the future


I find this quite disturbing to be honest so I can understand if you've had previous negative comments. It may just be the way you've phrased it but the idea that family will 'throw in' some money so they'll get something out of it does imply investment. To quote the Dragons - this is not an investable idea. It would cost less for you each to buy the pedigree kitten of your choice from another breeder.


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## Suno (Dec 3, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> My initial question would be why would you be against showing at all?
> 
> The idea of showing was to ensure that breeding wasn't way off the mark for the breed so if you don't show how do you know if you are helping or hindering the breed?
> 
> ...


Im not at all for OR against showing. Ive never really thought of pet showing in relation to pedigree breeding to be honest. I have always assumed it is done by people who love their pets so much that they want to show them off.
I dont really think I will make any money out of it - I would think of it as nothing more than a pretty cool hobby - hobbies always cost more money than you gain (except quilting )

Im not going to do it to be cruel with the intention to make money - I personally believe you have a pet to love and nothing more, and yes, there are terrible people out there - some of whom I have met in my travels to obtain a cat - but I would never nuy from them and I would never become them; for them it is greed. For me, it would be (icky as it sounds) love.

I cant see a problem with getting a geunine pedigree cat and breeding it with another geuine pedigree cat with the intention of making genuine pedigree kittens for people to love.
I doubt (doubt - im not for it, im not against it) I would show my cat.
I know my family wouldnt show theirs.
What would my responsability be, as a (future) genuine breeder of pedigree kittens, to a new owner that did want to show their new cat?

I hope this has cleared up my first post a little.
I can only promise you all im not a money-hungry monster. For the grace of god I live a modest life which I am very thankful for.


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## Suno (Dec 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> I find this quite disturbing to be honest so I can understand if you've had previous negative comments. It may just be the way you've phrased it but the idea that family will 'throw in' some money so they'll get something out of it does imply investment. To quote the Dragons - this is not an investable idea. It would cost less for you each to buy the pedigree kitten of your choice from another breeder.


Thank you for your advice 
As for the bit ive quoted - it possibly is the way ive phrased it then - we're pretty much all cat lovers so it isnt an investment as much as it is "We want one too but dont want to pay the full price, phere is a little bit of money, you pay the rest!"
Does that make sense?

Again, I can only promise you all im not a cat-breeding money-hoarding monster


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

Breeding to me means producing the best kittens possible. Wether you want to produce kittens for showing or not does not mean that you should breed any old cat.

If you are going to the expense of breeding properly the amount it cost to register your litter is comparatively small compared to all the other costs combind. I personally dont see the point of breeding if your not going to see it through fully. 

If done properly you are never going to make your fortune breeding, I dont even dare to add up what it costs to fill up the litter trays and feed a litter of kittens to the point where they leave for their new homes, not even taking into account the cost of keeping mum, vet visits, worming, flea treatment and the odd poorly kitten. Its more likely to cost you rather than make money, so if your family are chipping in to buy the kitten I think it a rather bad investment on their parts.

I hope I dont come over as being harsh, I dont mean to...but if you are going to breed then go to a few shows, find good examples of the breed and learn what standards your cats should be reaching. Speak to breeders and gain knowledge and use their experiences and most of all aim to breed the best, healthiest kittens you can.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I can't add to what other breeders have already said but to address your main question about showing - the kitten needs to be registered as a pedigree which any good breeder will do any way and that's all. It doesn't have to registered in any special way to be shown.
The majority of people who buy pedigree kittens do not want them for showing but it is important to breed to the highest standard that you can. 
I would advise that you have a pedigree pet for a while before you consider breeding though.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Suno said:


> Im not at all for OR against showing. Ive never really thought of pet showing in relation to pedigree breeding to be honest. I have always assumed it is done by people who love their pets so much that they want to show them off.
> I dont really think I will make any money out of it - I would think of it as nothing more than a pretty cool hobby - hobbies always cost more money than you gain (except quilting )
> 
> Im not going to do it to be cruel with the intention to make money - I personally believe you have a pet to love and nothing more, and yes, there are terrible people out there - some of whom I have met in my travels to obtain a cat - but I would never nuy from them and I would never become them; for them it is greed. For me, it would be (icky as it sounds) love.
> ...


Well, tbh, most new owners don't want to show but also many new owners feel very reassured & boast about all the titled cats in their kitten's pedigree so that is something to bare in mind.

Showing is about showing off your cat. I enjoy it as I love bonding with my cats when I groom them ready for showing & get to sit with them all day & talk to anyone who agrees with me that they are amazing.

I'd just urge you to think why you want kittens & is it the right reason. There are a lot of BSH for sale, many breeders are on here & a few I believe have had a hard time selling during the recession.


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## Notnowbernard (Jul 31, 2012)

I think you have been given excellent advice from the breeders on here - just wanted to add my thoughts from 'the other side' so to speak

I too want to breed and my chosen breed is Siamese. However, I started off by re-homing two Siamese girls in need of a home. I wanted experience of the breed, to make sure that they matched what I'd read about them and that I could provide for their every need. 

This was three years ago and we have since lost one of our girls. A very sad time. We now have our neuter, Bernard and a silver tabby ori girl, Clara. 

If you want to breed - this is what I think is important: Buy from a reputable breeder. Mine has been so kind and helpful and straight talking. She has given me great advice since I bought Bernard and Clara from her - and I trust her completely to give straight and frank advice when I get the point where I am ready to start looking for a breeding queen. I also know that she will point me in the direction of someone who will mentor me through breeding.

Do your reading - any reputable breeder thinking of selling you a breeding queen is likely to quiz you on your knowledge of genetics, caring for a pregnant queen, kittens, how aware you are of things that may go wrong etc and how you would cope with all of this, not just financially but emotionally as well.

I would also advise that you go to a show or two and meet breeders / owners of BSH. I have started showing Bernard recently and it is a great way to meet breeders and for them to see that you are a caring, responsible owner with the breeds best interests at heart. I personally would find it really to hard to phone a breeder out of the blue and ask outright for a breeding girl.

I want to breed because I love Siamese and I feel that there are still many things that a conscientious breeder can add to the breed. 

Hope this helps - I suppose what I'm really saying is do your homework. Hopefully people here will continue to give you constructive advice.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> What would my responsability be, as a (future) genuine breeder of pedigree kittens, to a new owner that did want to show their new cat?


I see them as exactly the same as your responsibilities to anyone who has one of your kittens. If you're going to offer your kittens as properly bred pedigrees then you really should register the litter, or at least declare them. The costs are honestly minimal among overall breeding expenses and you have to give out MORE paperwork for new owners to register them individually.


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## Suno (Dec 3, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> Well, tbh, most new owners don't want to show but also many new owners feel very reassured & boast about all the titled cats in their kitten's pedigree so that is something to bare in mind.
> 
> Showing is about showing off your cat. I enjoy it as I love bonding with my cats when I groom them ready for showing & get to sit with them all day & talk to anyone who agrees with me that they are amazing.
> 
> I'd just urge you to think why you want kittens & is it the right reason. There are a lot of BSH for sale, many breeders are on here & a few I believe have had a hard time selling during the recession.


Never say never - I cant see it as something I would do, but I cannot see it as something I wouldnt.
I will be taking the adivce of other people and visiting a few shows now though, so maybe I will get bitten by the bug?

Im just not very articulate with words and have a hard time getting people to understand what I want every now and again.
I know my cat will be registered GCCF Active (which is required for all kittens brought for breeding... right?).

I didnt know if i'd need to register the kittens with the GCCF specifically to show or if it was something the new owner could do by themselves (should they decide to show in the future)
The GCCF website is very,_ very _confusing and emailed a few breeders who say their queens are GCCF registered - but they dont register their kittens - which made me wary and even more confused.
Like I said, ive been thrown off the high-board into the deep end of the BSH blue sea.

I wish I could find a genuine BSH breeder locally to sit down and chat with about it.
There are 2 in my area, one now thinks im cruel and the other is never (ever, apparantly) home.

Thank you all for your patience and for not instantly jumping down my throat with insults. Ive met some right nasty people on this internet malarky!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Suno said:


> <snip>
> 
> I cant see a problem with getting a geunine pedigree cat and breeding it with another geuine pedigree cat with the intention of making genuine pedigree kittens for people to love.
> 
> <snip>


A genuine pedigree cat in my view means one that is registered. In the UK the main registry is the GCCF and as others have commented, you can only register kittens from a queen and stud who are both on the active register. Breeding cats that are brought on the inactive register (not for breeding) is what Back Yard breeders do - the cat equivalent of puppy mills.

£400 is probably the going rate for a registered BSH, a female on the active would probably cost a bit more.

My suggestion is that you do some fostering of cats with kittens as a starter, to see how it goes. It's fulfilling, fun, heartbreaking sometimes (but so is breeding) and you are helping cats in need. The rescue I used to foster for covered the cost of food and litter, the one I fostered for last year would have except that at 100 miles each way I wasn't going to spend my time driving up there and back.

Also, go to some cat shows - the GCCF website lists them all - look at all the cats, get a catalogue if the breed & colour isn't on the pen labels so you know what you are looking at, and talk to their owners.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Suno said:


> Never say never - I cant see it as something I would do, but I cannot see it as something I wouldnt.
> I will be taking the adivce of other people and visiting a few shows now though, so maybe I will get bitten by the bug?
> 
> Im just not very articulate with words and have a hard time getting people to understand what I want every now and again.
> ...


You would definitely want to register your kittens yourself. If they aren't shown, at least they can't be registered by the new owner & bred from unscrupulously! You can register them so they are non-active - no kittens can be bred from your kitten.

Google the BSH cat club & contact the committee. Someone will be willing to guide you but as I say there are a few BSH breeders on here.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I started off the same way as you - didn't want to show - knew the breed and colour I wanted - and wanted to go straight into breeding - I was lucky and unlucky. I received very good advice from many breeders which I ignored and I shopped around until someone would sell me a queen on the active. SHe is a poor example and came with a genetic defect that is life limiting. I didn't research enough. I just wanted kittens. 

Through this cat I learnt MASSES! And now I know where I went wrong as a novice. It's not easy. It seems it but when you have a cat whose breeder won't mentor you, you actually have a hell of a time finding a relevant unrelated stud. We travelled 3 and 1/2 hours EACH WAY for stud services and twice she didn't take. 

I learnt masses and now am much more aware, more knowledgeable and more ethical. 

If you want to chat then contact me through my website (I don't breed BSH but am happy to chat breeding)

It's a tough world and doing it right is costly (my last litter cost me a fair amount of money to raise properly!) - it is definitely a hobby and an expensive one at that. Expect to pay a lot of money for an active queen (I would guess at £650 minimum), stud fees of around £250, you need to keep the kittens until they are fully vaccinated so 13 weeks old, you need to feed them, worm them, etc and it all costs. You need to snap test your queen in order for it to go to stud, there may be genetic tests needed as well, and they all cost. You need to make sure you have an emergency supply of money in case an out of hours emergency caesarian is needed. I would say your start up budget needs to be around £1200 MINIMUM. 

Selling kittens isn't always easy - I know of a BSH breeder who still has her 3 kittens at 20 weeks old and has no interest - she has no website though - but the costs of keeping these kittens is great. Registering kittens is actually cheap in comparison - about £15-20 each (unless you have a prefix, which if you are going to do it properly is a good thing to have). And for a full price kitten you are expected to register it. 

Anyhoo ask if you have more questions. Last point - I would say you need to be able to fund this ALL yourself not rely on family - otherwise you end up in shtook. They will try to tell you how to do it and want to breed from the kittens etc and that's not necessarily what you would want.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

All i can add is what happens if you pay alot of money for a queen who for some reason doesnt produce kittens, would you keep her as a pet.
i purchased a very expensive queen who sadly hasnt been able to get pregnant, my view is she is my much adored cat and if she had produced kittens this would have been an extra joy but she is now neutered after several attempts at breeding and her getting so stressed it was time to call it a day for her, i dont regret for one minute paying all that money for a wonderful girl and it would never enter my mind to rehome her, she is with me for life and thats just the way breeding goes sometimes.

i do feel if you are going into breeding you have to start by doing the right thing from the beginning, so all paperwork must be provided to the new owners by the breeder, you have to know which kittens would meet the breed standard for showing and the main thing to point out is you never make money from breeding....if you want to make cash do extra shifts at work, cat breeding isnt a profit business but a much enjoyed hobby where it brings emotions of sadness and joy, sad when the babies finally leave home and joy that somebody else has the vet bills.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi there

It sounds as though perhaps your main drive to breed would be to give your family some lovely cheap kittens. Just to put this in perspective, I've just had a litter of 5, 4 of which I sold at full price and 1 of which I kept. I recently made the mistake of going back through my bank statements and adding up all of the costs incurred in feeding, housing, keeping and vaccinating that merry lot... I stopped when I got to £2000, and I'm not joking. To do this propperly, give your cats the best possible and not compromise, you need to accept that you'll be lucky to break even, never mind make anything. Now, say your family chipped in to buy the queen, would they also chip in to cover vet bills, feeding costs etc? C sections alone can sometimes cost £1000, and what if that only gives you a damaged mummycat and a dead kitten? It can and does happen.

In my view, the only acceptable reason to breed is to give something to the breed itself, to add something, otherwise you're only slightly more responsible than Mrs Jones down the road who opens the door and lets tiddles out to go have a dirty weekend with the local tom just because she wants some kittens.

I understand your intentions are right, i.e the wanting a registered, health tested pedigree etc, but I really would advise doing a lot more thinking prior to buying your first queen.

If you want a no nonsense, straight talking viewpoint re the benefits, risks, joys and heartaches of breeding, then please just get in touch with me. I'm nonjudgemental, but will say things as I see them. Perhaps this is what you need if you're feeling a little adrift.

I also show regularly, so if you're down this end of the country, I could show you the ropes.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

carly87 said:


> Hi there
> 
> It sounds as though perhaps your main drive to breed would be to give your family some lovely cheap kittens. Just to put this in perspective, I've just had a litter of 5, 4 of which I sold at full price and 1 of which I kept. I recently made the mistake of going back through my bank statements and adding up all of the costs incurred in feeding, housing, keeping and vaccinating that merry lot... I stopped when I got to £2000, and I'm not joking. /QUOTE]
> 
> Me too Carly - I daren't think how much I lost


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm not a breeder but you may find the link below informative.

Rameses Cats: Breeding


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

But Spid, you're forgetting, we're supposed to be rolling in it!

I was almost sick when I got to 2 grand though. I swear to you all now, hand on heart, I will never, ever, ever calculate the costs of raising a litter ever again. Ever!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I never calculate it properly - just a rough idea is bad enough  And then my lovely husband says 'I bet you don't take into account all the hoovering, washing, wear and tear on the carpets and sofas and all of that!'


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Years ago I bred my Siamese Luci , I was lucky it was so textbook,from her happening to be on the active register to her popping out 5 very healthy kittens. It was too easy really,and was very very lucky it all went to plan. 3 went to family members and two were advertised by the studs owner. No money was made but it wasn't the intention . Just wanted to have beautiful siamese kittens 

Now.. Years later I feel ashamed and embarrassed that I was just like you  
It could have gone so terribly wrong.

Listen to the professional breeders here, they all have such a wealth of knowledge and experience.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Lyn, you've just made me go faint. I'd not even considered that... My washing machine was on constantly too.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I was almost sick when I got to 2 grand though. I swear to you all now, hand on heart, I will never, ever, ever calculate the costs of raising a litter ever again. Ever!


Every time someone on here starts adding it up I try not to look. I've been saying for years that nobody should even consider breeding if they don't have £1500 sitting spare to forfeit.

It's an old truism that the best way to make a small fortune through breeding is to start with a large one!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

What a great interesting, truthful thread this has been. I am (Mod Hat On) so proud to be a member of this forum. Very excellent advise and done in such a professional yet heartfelt way.....


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## Suno (Dec 3, 2012)

Hi everybody.

Thank you all so much for your advice. It has been an eye-opener and ive been poking my head around all the links and advice to research everything.

I am happy to report to you all, I will not be breeding a cat anytime soon. I sat down and had a talk about it with my OH and we went through everything you guys have said and everything ive read; i've googled furiously!
There is still so much I need to learn, and I cannot tell everybody "Oh no, im a nice pet owner!" and then go ahead and "Try" to do it if I dont know what im doing - if something goes wrong that I dont know about, it will be cruel to the animal.

This isnt to say im never going to breed. I am lucky enough to have the money, time and patience to do it. I just need to do a heck of a lot more research on the subject before I ever intend to put an animal through it.
In the mean time, I am on the look-out for a nice GCCF pedigree non-active kitten (breed has yet to be determined, I need to research their temperment's to make sure we're compatable) and im trying to talk my other half into comming to a cat show with me (something he is adamant he is "too young!" to do  )

Im going to give it a few years to raise my new kitten (when I get one) and do my research, go to a few shows etc - just so I have some sort of foundation to work from.

Again, I would like to thank you all for your kind (and patient) advice. I have been on another (un-named) forum where I was called a 'kitten-murdering scumbag who should be locked up and will be evetually found, garroted and killed'.  So this communities kindness has not gone unnoticed.

I will continue to lurk around these forums and ask questions every now and again


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Oh my gosh - what a horrid forum that must have been! 

Glad you're staying around. We will help if we can.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm so glad that you have found us nice and helpful  Lovely to have you around and ask as many questions as you like


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Just a tip now that you have made a decision. If you were to find a lovely kitten of show quality & show your dedication to the breed, you may find some friendly breeders to ask to mentor you!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Well done you for doing the right thing! What a rare thing that is these days, but you're right in all that you said. Lots of research really is necessary before you start.

I'll extend my offer again though. If you want info on how a breeding household runs or works, or you want company at a show, please just let me know. As for your OH saying he's too young to go, tell him I'm mortally insulted! I go! *smile*


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> Just a tip now that you have made a decision. If you were to find a lovely kitten of show quality & show your dedication to the breed, you may find some friendly breeders to ask to mentor you!


^ This is what i was going to say.

Find your self a good breeder and get a show quality neuter,get showing you will learn everything you need to know plus get your foot in the door in regards to finding yourself a mentor.

I breed british mainly colourpoints but next year im going into colourpoint & white,bi colours and selfs.

Iv never looked back i love breeding.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

spid said:


> I started off the same way as you - didn't want to show - knew the breed and colour I wanted - and wanted to go straight into breeding - I was lucky and unlucky. I received very good advice from many breeders which I ignored and I shopped around until someone would sell me a queen on the active. SHe is a poor example and came with a genetic defect that is life limiting. I didn't research enough. I just wanted kittens.
> 
> Through this cat I learnt MASSES! And now I know where I went wrong as a novice. It's not easy. It seems it but when you have a cat whose breeder won't mentor you, you actually have a hell of a time finding a relevant unrelated stud. We travelled 3 and 1/2 hours EACH WAY for stud services and twice she didn't take.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing the above Spid - it is very similar to my story, I wasnt interested in showing (having shown horses when younger I knew it wasnt for me) but wanted to breed - I thought I had done the correct thing and found a breeder willing to sell me a queen on the active - she gave me all the flannel about how she rarely sells on the active but really liked me etc - this simply wasnt true and once she had my money she wasnt interested in mentoring - when I approached her for advice re blood typing her advice was to use an incompatable stud (one of hers lol) and hand rear (my first litter and the Queens) for the first 24hrs to avoid NI - she was simply after my stud fee regardless -

That left me, as you say, floundering with regards to finding a stud - I think I did ok but the stud owner was unable to help me when I approached her to see if my kittens were a good weight for 13 weeks as she stated she never weighed hers and relied on the vet to tell her if there were any problems.

My kittens were 1.8-2kg at 13 weeks (BSH) - I asked my vet what my Queen weighed when I took her for her 2nd vaccination at 13 weeks (sold to me at 9 weeks!) and he had recorded a miniscule 900 gr.ammes at 13 weeks - God knows how tiny she had been at 9 weeks as she ate like a horse from the moment I had her.

I am still very angry that this GCCF registered breeder sold me such a tiny kitten on the active register - even as an extremely novice breeder I already know this is far to small to say that she would have potential for breeding.

My dilemma now is whether to allow her to have any more - I loved the breeding experience and she is a brilliant mum but I want to breed quality kittens. So I will be visiting as many shows and studs as possible through the winter to learn more and see if I can be objective as to whether to breed from her again.

Apologies for the long post just needed to get than one off my chest - be careful I learnt the hard way there are GCCF registered breeders out there who only see pound signs!

PS my girl will be staying with me for life regardless of the decision I come to re breeding her again.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

wicket said:


> <snip>
> 
> PS my girl will be staying with me for life regardless of the decision I come to re breeding her again.


Think very carefully about the stud and his pedigree if you breed her again, and do it with keeping a girl to take over from her in mind. Of course the right girl might not be born - indeed you might get a visit from the Boy Fairy - but since she has successfully had one litter another should be possible.

And don't say 'always' or 'never'. You don't know if at some time in the future you will have social problems errupt where the only solution for maximising everyone's happiness is to rehome a cat, possibly her. Stick to wanting the best for your cats, whatever that is.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

wicket said:


> Thank you for sharing the above Spid - it is very similar to my story, I wasnt interested in showing (having shown horses when younger I knew it wasnt for me) but wanted to breed - I thought I had done the correct thing and found a breeder willing to sell me a queen on the active - she gave me all the flannel about how she rarely sells on the active but really liked me etc - this simply wasnt true and once she had my money she wasnt interested in mentoring - when I approached her for advice re blood typing her advice was to use an incompatable stud (one of hers lol) and hand rear (my first litter and the Queens) for the first 24hrs to avoid NI - she was simply after my stud fee regardless -
> 
> That left me, as you say, floundering with regards to finding a stud - I think I did ok but the stud owner was unable to help me when I approached her to see if my kittens were a good weight for 13 weeks as she stated she never weighed hers and relied on the vet to tell her if there were any problems.
> 
> ...


Hi wicket id say the fact that you are questioning whether this girl should go on to have another litter for me would be my answer.

Take it as a learning curve weve all been there,my first cats i got i would not have touched them now i know what i know.

The only way to learn what it a good type cat is by going to the shows  Good luck.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I was furious with my breeder, as she denied HCM was genetic and still bred the same cats together again. And she was a well respected breeder and her boy was in many, many pedigrees. Much as I may have asked to be treated in such a way by not doing my research properly etc. the kittens she bred that will have died early didn't deserve it! 

This is also why I don't sell on the active at the moment (and won't for a while) I don't yet have the knowledge to be a proper mentor. Eventually I hope to be, but until then . . .


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

spid said:


> I was furious with my breeder, as she denied HCM was genetic and still bred the same cats together again. And she was a well respected breeder and her boy was in many, many pedigrees. Much as I may have asked to be treated in such a way by not doing my research properly etc. the kittens she bred that will have died early did deserve it!
> 
> This is also why I don't sell on the active at the moment (and won't for a while) I don't yet have the knowledge to be a proper mentor. Eventually I hope to be, but until then . . .


I think your knowledge is amazing and I would have loved you for a mentor, this breeding forum has been a brilliant help - I am cross with myself for being naive enough to think that a GCCF breeder would only sell on the active a kitten which had potential to further the breed - in hindsight although healthy mine was clearly tiny.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

How tiny is tiny? And sorry, I haven't worked out what breed your girl is.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

It's the line breeding knowledge I don't have - who is who in the Selkirk world etc. Soupie is amazing and knew exactly which cats to recommend for stud for Bomber when I asked. I don't have that knowledge yet. She shows more in TICA and GCCF as well which I have never done yet with Selkirk's and so knows more about the other breeders, their plans, their lines etc. When I have her knowledge I will be happy to mentor. I will happily try now for the right person, but they would need to realise I'm not perfect.

Unfortunately some breeders only think about the extra money selling on the active.


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## Suno (Dec 3, 2012)

Im learning so much. Far too much, one might say, in regards that it is putting me off wanting to do it at all.
You'd have thought being on the GCCF register would always mean you are of good-standing.
It's been half a year since I looked into doing this and only within the last three days I can see how naive I have been in my thinking and expectations of others.

It's been an eye-opener of a week. More confused than ever but I will get there in the end.

Keeping in mind now that im currently looking for a non-active spayed/neutered kitten of pedigree, can any of you offer any advice about what I should expect from a reputable breeder?
Ive been in contact with a few and some of the things they say make me wary of buying from them - but that may just be my own lack of knowledge putting a dampner on things. For example:

"My queen and stud are GCCF registered, but my kittens wont be." was a reply I got enquiring about one litter. I asked for more information but the lady skirts around the issue and uses dead-end sentences in her replies.:sosp:

"We have just had a litter, got another one comming next week and in about 3 weeks we'll have another one!" was another reply from a breeder which also made me wary as the advert claimed her cats were brought up in a loving, busy home with other children and pets - how would she find the time?

I think im more lost now than I was when I stated.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

What breed are you looking at? We might know reputable breeders.

If they don't register kittens it's unlikely that their queen and stud are meant to be used for breeding etc. Steer clear.

If they have that many litters they can't have the time to socialise properly -again steer clear. 

I personally - like the kittens to be brought up in the house, underfoot, and allowed to feed from mum as long as possible - Coda was still feeding hers when they left at 16 weeks. I like a small set up. Someone who knows about genetics and understands the breed standard reasonably well (as you might want to show) , who's willing to recommend another breeder if they don't have exactly what you want. Someone who is willing to admit they don't know everything but knows a woman who does (or the internet). SOmeone who isn't in it just for the money and feeds good food because it's good not because it's cheap. Someone who doesn't cut corners. Sorry, a bit of an etherial answer.

The best thing to do is visit and see whether you like the breeder and their set up. I might not have the cleanest house around but I like to think my cats are well looked after and loved and encourage anyone to come and visit and ask questions etc. Tea and biscuits etc are offered (no cake forks - forum joke!) and I like to think I make people feel welcome. There is no obligation to buy a kitten of mine just because you came to see me.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Suno said:


> Im learning so much. Far too much, one might say, in regards that it is putting me off wanting to do it at all.
> You'd have thought being on the GCCF register would always mean you are of good-standing.
> It's been half a year since I looked into doing this and only within the last three days I can see how naive I have been in my thinking and expectations of others.
> 
> ...


People that breed two registered cats but dont register the kittens in my opinion wouldnt be a very good breeder there is no need to not register kittens.There will be a reason why she hasnt registered them maybe something like the queen has had to many litters or is to old maybe or one of her cats or both are registered non-active ie should not be bred so she cant reg the kitten - wouldnt touch that breeder tbh.

The other breeder you may have to quiz her some more or visit to check her out as i my self will be in her position next year in breeding season and i have 5 girls who will be breeding so i may end up with up to 3 litters all in one go,they are raised in the home and get socialised very well.

You will just have to visit see what you think and choose with your head and not heart.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> What breed are you looking at? We might know reputable breeders.
> 
> If they don't register kittens it's unlikely that their queen and stud are meant to be used for breeding etc. Steer clear.
> 
> ...


Cross posted  simular advise i see.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> How tiny is tiny? And sorry, I haven't worked out what breed your girl is.


She is a british shorthair -when I took my kittens for their second vaccination at 13 weeks they weighed between 1.8kg and 2kg - I have tried to find out from the owner of the stud I used of this is a reasonable weight for british shorthair kittens at this age but unfortunately she doesnt weight hers.

I got my girl at 9 weeks (wrong I know now but I was told by my GCCF breeder the 13 weeks was a recommendation not a rule - having kept mine to 13 weeks I understand totally why it should be 13 weeks and couldnt possibly have parted with them at 9 weeks) When I asked my vet to look at his records to see what weight he had recorded at 13 weeks (second vaccination) for my girl it was only 900 grammes !! Now I am a novice but even I know kittens should be roughly 100 grammes per week of age - she had grown masses in the 4 weeks I had already had her so can only presume she was approx 600-700 grammes when she was sold to me - it was my fault as I should have known she was small but it is difficult to find information about how big a kitten should be at a certain no of weeks and they all grow at different rates - the rest of the litter was the same size. British shorthairs do take a long while to mature, she is still on the small size at 3.3 kilos at 18months of age although the kittens she had were a good birth weight - between 100-120 grammes and all had lovely temperaments.

I understand what you said about doing what is best for the cat just meant I wouldnt get rid of her simply because she was not the best for breeding


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I would say they were good weights for BSH kittens at that age. Mine were all between 1.5kg and 2.3kg ish at 13 weeks - a biggish breed too. Thumper left home at 2.85kg!

3.3kg is small for a BSH queen. I would personally be happier if she was nearer the 4kg mark, but she may yet get there I suppose. Coda (RagaMuffin) is about 4.5kg and BSHs should be heavier.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

spid said:


> I would say they were good weights for BSH kittens at that age. Mine were all between 1.5kg and 2.3kg ish at 13 weeks - a biggish breed too. Thumper left home at 2.85kg!
> 
> 3.3kg is small for a BSH queen. I would personally be happier if she was nearer the 4kg mark, but she may yet get there I suppose. Coda (RagaMuffin) is about 4.5kg and BSHs should be heavier.


Thank you - my vet thought the kittens were a good weight - they were lovely kittens and all the new owners have been in contact to say what lovely temperaments they all have. I will visit shows in the near future and learn more about the breed, I also have an open invite to visit the kittens and see how they are getting on - I have the winter to think about it ( my girl has access to a purrfect fenced area so seems to be governed by the seasons, she hasnt called since she had the kittens so hopefully wont do so now until the spring) I will visit the kittens and see how they develop and also see how my girl develops over the winter and come to a hopefully better informed decision re breeding her again in the spring.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I would suggest visinting breeders who don't have kittens until you've settled on a breed. One of my waiting list people last year wasn't all the way convinced that Persians were right for her, so she came down and spent part of a day with us, and this before any of my girls were even pregnant! This kind of set up allows you to think with your head, not your heart, as it's almost impossible to refuse kittens on sight.

Your breeder should be open and honest about how they raise their kittens, and should have no problems with you seeing where they are raised. They should always provide paperwork with kittens, and in my view at least, should always register them. No registration slip, no proof that your cat is a pedigree. Kittens should be kept until min 13 weeks, and should have a full course of vaccionations prior to leaving. Chipping and early neutering are optional extras, although I do both. They should be open about what they feed and why they've chosen it. I would be wary of someone who agrees to sell you a kitten without loads and loads of questions first.

When you see kittens they should be bright, alert, clean, not snuffly or snotty. Well socialised ones will be inquisitive and playful. All should be well grown.

Hope this helps a little.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Your girl might be on the small size for a BSH but she has raised good-size kittens and I don't see that as a reason to think she is a poor queen, nor do I see that as a reason to not breed her again. Did she lose or hold condition through pregnancy and lactation? The one crucal thing I think is that if she lost condition she has to regain it before mating her again.

For a stud I reckon you want to look for the best boy you can find who will produce the colour kittens you want. Have a look at the pedigrees of the current winning top cats, to get a feel for what prefixes have done well. Go to shows and have a really good look at the BSH, and read the critiques when they appear on the GCCF website.

I believe pawpeds.com has quite a few BSH pedigrees on-line, there are probably other sites that do but I'm an Oriental lover so I mostly know sites where there are Oriental pedigrees!


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Your girl might be on the small size for a BSH but she has raised good-size kittens and I don't see that as a reason to think she is a poor queen, nor do I see that as a reason to not breed her again. Did she lose or hold condition through pregnancy and lactation? The one crucal thing I think is that if she lost condition she has to regain it before mating her again.
> 
> For a stud I reckon you want to look for the best boy you can find who will produce the colour kittens you want. Have a look at the pedigrees of the current winning top cats, to get a feel for what prefixes have done well. Go to shows and have a really good look at the BSH, and read the critiques when they appear on the GCCF website.
> 
> I believe pawpeds.com has quite a few BSH pedigrees on-line, there are probably other sites that do but I'm an Oriental lover so I mostly know sites where there are Oriental pedigrees!


Many thanks for the advice, I will have a look at pawpeds - she held her condition well, I made sure she was fed ad lib every couple of hours with good quality food - I am looking foward to learning more at shows


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You might like to do some stewarding for someone judging BSH - you will learn so much about the breed and what they should look like that way. Check the GCCF site for the show list, pick your show(s) and contact the show manger well in advance. Be completely honest about your (lack of) exerience at stewarding, and it might work better to pick one of the smaller shows.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Just to add it isn't all bad experiences when starting.

I knew what I wanted to do and think the way I have done it has impacted on my initial success. I got a show neuter and became great friends with his breeder before getting a queen.

Now I have a fantastic friend and mentor. I know I can ask about studs and know where to avoid or to go, which judges like which types etc and had as much support as I needed when I had my first litter.

It can be a success (but expensive) but planning is so important. Had I gone straight for a queen it may not have been so good or if I had lots of neuters then I could be limited on space for queens and kittens.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> Just to add it isn't all bad experiences when starting.
> 
> I knew what I wanted to do and think the way I have done it has impacted on my initial success. I got a show neuter and became great friends with his breeder before getting a queen.
> 
> ...


Agree, I started in similar way showing neuters for several years and becoming good friends with my (now) mentor. 
I initially just wanted to show neuters as a fun hobby, didn't set out to breed.

Having that show experience, learning all about the breed, talking to other breeders - even if they've got a different breed, and forming a firm relationship with your breeder all help you get the best possible start.

6 years later I still pester mine with questions and her opinion on things


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Just a quickie on adult female British shorthair sizes - most are not fully grown until 3 years old so I wouldn't panic just yet. Also females are smaller than males - you should not expect them to be massive. My British girl is just over 4 kgs, a lovely size, well boned and foursquare. Many girls on the show bench range between 4 and 5kgs. I have seen girls who are a bit small as youngsters and come back out after a litter or two at 3 or 4 years old and boy have they changed!

Do not expect your girl to be fully mature yet and give her time to mature


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