# Mimicing behaviour



## Guest (Feb 14, 2012)

In my work I often see dogs mimicing other dogs, this is one of the ways that dogs learn to speak and listen "dog". 

However, I got to thinking the other day when it was birthday......... I was unwraping a present and when I'd taken off the paper I passed the torn paper to my youngest boy Connor who lay beside me, knowing that he would have lots of fun tearing it up . He systematically but calmly shredded it into 1 inch strips. Lots of fun. 

But I know that if I passed him any other paper, a newspaper, an envelope, a magazine, just a piece of paper, he wouldnt shred it. So I figured that he mimicking my shredding behavour? Your thoughts welcome? 

Also, Id be interested in any other reports of dogs mimicing human behaviours......Im researching the possibility of using such behaviour to help our dogs learn how to live in the human world. Thank you for your time. 
Denise


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The evidence for imitative learning in dogs in sketchy. What evidence there is seems to be that dogs emulate other dogs, rather than humans. Check out this article:
http://www.cogs.indiana.edu/spackled/2009readings/Imitation dogs 2009.PDF

I wouldn't say that it is a fact, or even a well-evidenced assumption, that dogs imitate other dogs and learn a number of life skills through this.

This is a tricky area and any research needs to be cleverly designed to discount confounding other factors. There are many questions to be asked: who do dogs imitate? In what contexts? What behaviours and what are the limitations? Why should dogs imitate? Are these learned or innate, or both?

I do find it fascinating though!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Well apart from the well documented mimicking of calming signals eg yawning, did my dogs learn to open doors by trial and error or by observing me using the handle?

I do not know.

I have observed dogs learning from other dogs, my GSD learned to point from my HPR I am sure.

I have not really sat down and thought about what behaviours, if any, could have been learned from humans, when I have time, I may do that..........


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Only in the sense that if dogs live in a calm and peaceful environment, they tend to be calm and contented dogs as opposed to dogs that live in an unstable environment with loud and argumentative owners, then the dogs tend to be the same.

Just my personal opinion and observation.


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

Hmm, the dog trainer who ran our dog's recent training classes said that dogs aren't able to mimic behaviour, either from other dogs or humans, so we shouldn't expect them to learn that way.

I'm not sure where she got her information from, although she has a hell of a lot of doggy qualifications!

It's interesting, because I had assumed that they would learn by mimicking, at least to some degree.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

springfieldbean said:


> Hmm, the dog trainer who ran our dog's recent training classes said that dogs aren't able to mimic behaviour, either from other dogs or humans, so we shouldn't expect them to learn that way.
> 
> I'm not sure where she got her information from, although she has a hell of a lot of doggy qualifications!
> 
> It's interesting, because I had assumed that they would learn by mimicking, at least to some degree.


She is, by and large, correct. The evidence for dogs imitating is quite small and only done under a few experimental conditions, so it really hasn't been proven yet.

It has to be remembered that animals don't just have the capacity for learning behaviours for no reason, they need to be useful and needed. Imitative learning has to serve some purpose that is, in the whole order of things, worth the neurons, brain tissue and energy in evolving. If there is selection pressure for it, then there's little reason why they should. However, I think there are a number or reasons we all know why this learning could be significantly useful to dogs in their environments.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

Hmmmm. We see dogs mimicking one another in class situations most weeks at some level or other. For instance, when we intoroduce an older calmer mentally very self assured dog into a group of puppies who where formally playing, many of the puppies will immediately or soon after cease play and begin to follow and mimic the older dog,. They will sniff the ground as he does, look where he looks, follow him and his movements and occasionally perform other actions that he does. I have no doubt that mimicing takes place. And as already pointed out, dog do mimic one another during the cimmunication which has been labelled calming signals. 

Learning by observing an action and copying it is not the same as mimicing I dont think. Learning by observing .....There is one instance that stands out in my mind with a lurcher in class years ago.... who was amazingly intelligent. I once used two of my own dogs to explain and demo the next training task a competition left hand turn. it was then demod by anopther dog and handler who where really good as I talked over the excercise and the purpose and process. having seen this then three times with three dogs and two handlers... the lurcher got up on the floor with his handler and proceeded to perform a perfect left hand turn on his very first attempt having had no previous training that I was aware of. I was stunned. but he was an exceptional dog! 

The only other case that stands out in my mind where dog clearly "mimic" humans is when a human looks say over a fence or hedge or barrier that the dog cannot see over or around without making an effort. And where the human looks the dog makes the effort of looking standing on ts hind legs or taking action to see over or around. but is this mimicing or is this some form of pack COMMUNICATION process? 

Thank you for your replieseveryone. Denise


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

Another example of mimicing dog to dogs is that of shaking off. If one of my dogs shakes say after a swim or a stressfull or exciting encounter, then the other dogs in close proximity will also do this too. Whether this is mimicing or whether it is shaking off the same stress, or in the case of a wet dog, an assumption that the shaken water from one dog has landed on the one that mimics I dont know. There is evidence all around that dogs DO mimic dogs of that I am sure. 

But its dogs mimicing humans that is less studied or documented and I think also less obvious. 

Think on people....all your input is very welcome!! Thank you for your time . 
Denise


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*The only other case that stands out in my mind where dog clearly "mimic" humans is when a human looks say over a fence or hedge or barrier that the dog cannot see over or around without making an effort. And where the human looks the dog makes the effort of looking standing on ts hind legs or taking action to see over or around. but is this mimicing or is this some form of pack COMMUNICATION process?*

That reminded me of a comical incident on a training course a couple of years ago:

A fabulous GSD bitch was out on the floor doing retrieve. The handler was having problems with her yelling with excitement which we were duly working on. I suggested the handler ignore her bitch when she started barking and we both folded our arms and went and looked out of the window - 30 seconds later I felt two large paws on my shoulder; the bitch had joined us and was as near as damn it saying "what are you both looking at"....


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Hmmmm. We see dogs mimicking one another in class situations most weeks at some level or other. For instance, when we intoroduce an older calmer mentally very self assured dog into a group of puppies who where formally playing, many of the puppies will immediately or soon after cease play and begin to follow and mimic the older dog,. They will sniff the ground as he does, look where he looks, follow him and his movements and occasionally perform other actions that he does. I have no doubt that mimicing takes place. And as already pointed out, dog do mimic one another during the cimmunication which has been labelled calming signals.
> 
> Learning by observing an action and copying it is not the same as mimicing I dont think. Learning by observing .....There is one instance that stands out in my mind with a lurcher in class years ago.... who was amazingly intelligent. I once used two of my own dogs to explain and demo the next training task a competition left hand turn. it was then demod by anopther dog and handler who where really good as I talked over the excercise and the purpose and process. having seen this then three times with three dogs and two handlers... the lurcher got up on the floor with his handler and proceeded to perform a perfect left hand turn on his very first attempt having had no previous training that I was aware of. I was stunned. but he was an exceptional dog!
> 
> ...





CaDeLac Denise said:


> Another example of mimicing dog to dogs is that of shaking off. If one of my dogs shakes say after a swim or a stressfull or exciting encounter, then the other dogs in close proximity will also do this too. Whether this is mimicing or whether it is shaking off the same stress, or in the case of a wet dog, an assumption that the shaken water from one dog has landed on the one that mimics I dont know. There is evidence all around that dogs DO mimic dogs of that I am sure.
> 
> But its dogs mimicing humans that is less studied or documented and I think also less obvious.
> 
> ...


I am unsure if what you have been seeing is actually imitation though. Imitation implies a knowledge of what another dog/human/animal has performed, and that animal performs the same behaviour because the observed animal has done it (in gaining a reward, for example). It is not simply the replication of behaviours, which could have a number of reasons.

For example, the calming signals example is, to me, simply communication. Because a puppy ground-sniffs after an adult dog does, does not mean it is imitating the behaviour directly from the adult, it may just mean that the puppy is communicating with the adult dog, or is engaging in a similar self-directed displacement behaviour to self-calm, and for whatever reason has produced the same behaviour. Similarly with shake-offs.

I think that most dogs would produce the same calming signals in those situations whether there were other dogs around or not, or at least a lot of the time.

Your case of the Greyhound, though, sounds interesting!

More research is needed because, although observations and anecdotal evidence is helpful, for this topic we need to control for a range of other factors. We need to make sure that dogs are significantly performing behaviours in response to observing the same behaviours performed by other people, dogs, animals etc., over chance level. We also need to make sure that there are not other variables that are controlling the behaviours, e.g. do dogs just react in similar ways to similar stimuli (like the older dog and the puppies), or are they actually imitating the other dogs.

And, most of all, why should dogs imitate us or others?

I think it is a misconception that many behaviours are taught from others in animal behaviour. I understand that anecdotal evidence is heaving, but these topics are so intricate that scientifically controlled experiments and observations are really needed to figure out the real truths.


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

I don't know if this counts but I got fed up of being pestered by my dog when I was picking blackberries as she was waiting for me to feed them to her so I showed her where they grew lower down and she picked her own. I then got a WSD/BC pup and she copied what the elder dog was doing. I must say the pup also checked with me first if it was ok to do it.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Last year at a retrieving challenge, there was a very long queue of people and their dogs waiting for their turn at this particular retrieve. Waiting time was well over an hour because every dog was having a very difficult time attempting to complete this retrieve, it was evidently a difficult task and one which most dogs didnt accomplish. Flynn and I sat there watching each dog before us try their best.
Anyway, it came to our turn and, after seeing very experienced dogs and handlers fail, I had no confidence. I set Flynn up, sent him off and he completed the retrieve perfectly with no further instruction from myself. You could've knocked me down with a feather.

Now, since our training hadnt taken us to that kind of level and it was a retrieve i'd never attempted with him before, I can only think that Flynn had sat and watched previous dogs - he'd watched where they'd been running, where the handlers were directing them to - and figured out what he needed to do.

It may be giving a dog more credit for intelligence than it deserves but to me, the only explanation is that he'd watched the other dogs.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Of course they learn by example, we train our pup in sitting and taking food "nicely" by seeing that to get food he must sit and be calm like the other dogs sitting in a semi-circle at home. Stand up = no food. This is by feeding lumps of raw by hand. 

Also with grooming, first big dog (who lays outstretched for attention) then pup.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> Of course they learn by example, we train our pup in sitting and taking food "nicely" by seeing that to get food he must sit and be calm like the other dogs sitting in a semi-circle at home. Stand up = no food. This is by feeding lumps of raw by hand.
> 
> Also with grooming, first big dog (who lays outstretched for attention) then pup.


I think we need to be careful of making situations like these way too convoluted. What you have described is simply operant conditioning- we are teaching the dog to do X behaviour to get a reward. Implying that the dog learns this from other dogs would suggest you could have a number of dogs, teach one dog to Sit, give them a reward all whilst the other dogs observed, and then all those other dogs would do the same behaviour without any teaching from your behalf.

Imitation is an animal actually performing a behaviour after witnessing it being performed. This is still an debated topic in animal behaviour, with evidence on both sides. Importantly, however, the use of words like 'teaching' need to be used in a different context than with humans, such as not making theory of mind or other properties that imply animals are conscious or understand that they are learning from another animal or human.

But I ramble.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Is there not an element of both at play in these situations? 

Dogs do observe who is a "soft touch" for scrounging tit-bits from and will gravitate to that person, is that trained because perseverance is rewarded or observed because they only go to people that give tit-bits. Different people in our extended family respond to different dogs in terms of giving-in to "I've never been fed EVER! puppy eyes".


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> Is there not an element of both at play in these situations?
> 
> Dogs do observe who is a "soft touch" for scrounging tit-bits from and will gravitate to that person, is that trained because perseverance is rewarded or observed because they only go to people that give tit-bits. Different people in our extended family respond to different dogs in terms of giving-in to "I've never been fed EVER! puppy eyes".


We know that dogs will gravitate towards people who give them more eye-contact and attention- compared to people who give no attention, or have their eyes/heads covered or have their back turned. So, yes dogs are able to observe and make a decision of who to beg for, as well as learn from experience that that person usually offers food.

However, this doesn't really come under the term of imitative learning. They are not being demonstrated to, by another dog for example, who to go to. They are making their own decision. We know this because dogs will do this behaviour when they do not have another dog to demonstrate.

For most behaviours, in my opinion, that have come up on this thread, dogs will perform them without other dogs around too. But that's just my opinion, although I would say most animal behaviourists would be more inclined to this side of the coin than not!


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

Barkie said:


> I don't know if this counts but I got fed up of being pestered by my dog when I was picking blackberries as she was waiting for me to feed them to her so I showed her where they grew lower down and she picked her own. I then got a WSD/BC pup and she copied what the elder dog was doing. I must say the pup also checked with me first if it was ok to do it.


. Yep I would say that does count. Ive done the same with some of my dogs too... never thought of that. And its usually very easy to get a dog to earn to pick b;ackberries too. I guess it would make sense that the capacity to mimicing where and how to find food ,,,... is potemtialy a life saving / improving one!

Brilliant thatnks for that one 
Denise x


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> I am unsure if what you have been seeing is actually imitation though. Imitation implies a knowledge of what another dog/human/animal has performed, and that animal performs the same behaviour because the observed animal has done it (in gaining a reward, for example). It is not simply the replication of behaviours, which could have a number of reasons.
> 
> For example, the calming signals example is, to me, simply communication. Because a puppy ground-sniffs after an adult dog does, does not mean it is imitating the behaviour directly from the adult, it may just mean that the puppy is communicating with the adult dog, or is engaging in a similar self-directed displacement behaviour to self-calm, and for whatever reason has produced the same behaviour. Similarly with shake-offs.
> 
> ...


Ij no good at multiquoting forgive me... Im unsure why you think that the action of mimicing IMPLIES a knowledge of what that animal is doing?? Im not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say there??? Please expand.

We have often used groups of dogs to rehab other dogs. We find that in so doig dogs that where formerly likey to agress toward other dogs are less likely to if they are part of a group which does not agress or which communicates differnetly. Indeed often times the "security" of being part of a large group, reduces all levels of over stimulatd behaviour. the bigger the group often the calmer it would appear to me. Not alwasy, but often.

re your paragraph regarding grouonf sniffing... you say that you dont think a puppy ground sniffing adfer an adult has done so to me a mimiced action more a communication action - do you mean therefore that you believe that communication within dogs is INBORN....that they dont need to LERN IT..????? You think calming signals (which personally I think are innapropriately named) are nature not nurture? That doesnt match up to my thinking... Im curious as to how you arrive at your thinking though - fascinating! Please expand.. ??

Persoanlly I think Imitation is a huge and very importatnt part of communication development in dogs and people. How else would a dog learn the sequence of events that might preceed a bite, if it where not to witness, memorise and learn from such a thing.

With referen e to the adult dog and sniffing puppies I can state that at the tijme this adult is introduced to the puppy groups, there is usually frantic play occuring..... then on the arrivval of the adult,,,, sniffing begins. It happens time and time again and we use this particular dog regularly for that very reason. it is my belief that only dogs can teach dogs how to effectively commuynicate with dogs... that many communication slkills are not inborn skills (though some are), but aquired skills. The more dogs a young dog is given access to the more advanced those skills usually become, unless there is sokme other pre determined condition which prevents learnign from occuring (liek an unde socialised animal that is too fearful to do anything ither than hide). Hope that made sense. freezing hands, typing even worse than normal.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts. Fascinating! 
Denise x


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

Leanne77 said:


> Last year at a retrieving challenge, there was a very long queue of people and their dogs waiting for their turn at this particular retrieve. Waiting time was well over an hour because every dog was having a very difficult time attempting to complete this retrieve, it was evidently a difficult task and one which most dogs didnt accomplish. Flynn and I sat there watching each dog before us try their best.
> Anyway, it came to our turn and, after seeing very experienced dogs and handlers fail, I had no confidence. I set Flynn up, sent him off and he completed the retrieve perfectly with no further instruction from myself. You could've knocked me down with a feather.
> 
> Now, since our training hadnt taken us to that kind of level and it was a retrieve i'd never attempted with him before, I can only think that Flynn had sat and watched previous dogs - he'd watched where they'd been running, where the handlers were directing them to - and figured out what he needed to do.
> ...


Id agree with you o that too! I had a very similar thing happen to me when I turned up (only once) at an advanced gun dog training group. At the end they did multiple retrieves up at the top of a hill and the instructor, I think in a bit of a mocking request , asked if I thougght my dog woudl be able to do that! I figured Id give it a go - he's a keen retriever with boundless energy, Anyway, he went off andf retrieved two blind dummies much faster than anyone elses dog with no formal training for such a task... part observation and part collie enthusiasm methinks.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

In fact the more I think about mimicing the more I am convinced that dogs do often either mimic, or "go along with" the behaviour of other dogs. In my experince ... in a class situation ... many dogs are MORE likely to observe a group stay than they are to stay on their own. Either mimicing the behaviour of others, or feeling a need to conform. Its usually extroverts or fearfull or aloof dogs which do not "conform" to the general, in my view. 

But that is not what this thread is about . Its about mimicing human behaviour  but what the heck its brillaint to hear of all your experinces and views so thank you. Dx


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## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

When jinja gets excited she sneezes and Tilly starts to sneeze as well.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Ij no good at multiquoting forgive me... Im unsure why you think that the action of mimicing IMPLIES a knowledge of what that animal is doing?? Im not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say there??? Please expand.


If we take imitation to mean the replication of a behaviour performed by another, for this to happen, the observer must be attentive to that individual, memorise the behaviour they see, and recognise the potential for reinforcement from doing such a behaviour. This, for me, is imitation (and how it is seen in animal behaviour). For me, imitation is not just the performance the same behaviour pattern, as the reason this same behaviour pattern is performed could be controlled by a number of factors, independent of the assumption that the animal is learning from and imitating another individual.



> We have often used groups of dogs to rehab other dogs. We find that in so doig dogs that where formerly likey to agress toward other dogs are less likely to if they are part of a group which does not agress or which communicates differnetly. Indeed often times the "security" of being part of a large group, reduces all levels of over stimulatd behaviour. the bigger the group often the calmer it would appear to me. Not alwasy, but often.


My take on this is that dogs in a group of well-socialised dogs feel less threatened. Their communication and calming signals (used to be known as cut-off signals) are heeded by others in the group, and social relationships are much more stable. To me, it doesn't make sense that an aggressive dog will stop being aggressive because it is imitating calm behaviour (I am guessing that is what you were implying?). The dog can not simply imitate calmness, it would have to be calm.



> re your paragraph regarding grouonf sniffing... you say that you dont think a puppy ground sniffing adfer an adult has done so to me a mimiced action more a communication action - do you mean therefore that you believe that communication within dogs is INBORN....that they dont need to LERN IT..????? You think calming signals (which personally I think are innapropriately named) are nature not nurture? That doesnt match up to my thinking... Im curious as to how you arrive at your thinking though - fascinating! Please expand.. ??


Behaviour is always nature and nurture, the two are very hard to separate! Yes, I am saying that dog communications is innate, in so far as the motor patterns of communication e.g. vocalisations, calming/cut-off/displacement/self-directed signals (whatever you wish to call them) will naturally be performed by the dog. Learning does take place too, as a dog is reinforced, or punished perhaps, for certain behaviours. Communication, as we know from many other species, cannot be learned completely, it is too complex and there is not enough time for a dog to learn them all from others. I have seen puppies 6 weeks of age presenting a huge array of calming signals before. But ofcourse, innate behaviour can be shaped by learning procedures.



> Persoanlly I think Imitation is a huge and very importatnt part of communication development in dogs and people. How else would a dog learn the sequence of events that might preceed a bite, if it where not to witness, memorise and learn from such a thing.


The bite is part of a predatory sequence, which all predatory animals have:

Orient > Stalk > Chase > Grab bite > Kill bite > Dissect > Consume

Canids differ from other predators (e.g. they can use a 'forefoot stab' instead of a grab bite) and domestic dogs, through artificial selection, vary in these behaviour patterns. What I am saying is that biting, and the associated predatory behaviours, are indeed unique. However, again, nature cannot be separated from nurture, and predatory sequences can be changed through socialisation etc.

But this is still not mimicking or imitation.



> With referen e to the adult dog and sniffing puppies I can state that at the tijme this adult is introduced to the puppy groups, there is usually frantic play occuring..... then on the arrivval of the adult,,,, sniffing begins. It happens time and time again and we use this particular dog regularly for that very reason.


Again, I see this as communication. That the puppies are respecting, or showing affiliation, to the elder dog through species-typical, innate communication motor patterns.



> it is my belief that only dogs can teach dogs how to effectively commuynicate with dogs... that many communication slkills are not inborn skills (though some are), but aquired skills. The more dogs a young dog is given access to the more advanced those skills usually become, unless there is sokme other pre determined condition which prevents learnign from occuring (liek an unde socialised animal that is too fearful to do anything ither than hide).


As above, it is impossible for dogs to learn all their behaviours from other dogs entirely. Their communication patterns may well be shaped as they develop, no doubt, but to imply that puppies are born without a knowledge of any of the communication behaviours is way off mark I believe. Why do you think they are not inborn, innate behaviours? And why do you believe that some behaviours are inborn?


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2012)

Few what a day..... 
I havent the time to respond to a of your points Rottiefan... but I wil when I have less dogs to train... ;-) but this bit caught my eye...

You said......."_The bite is part of a predatory sequence, which all predatory animals have:

Orient > Stalk > Chase > Grab bite > Kill bite > Dissect > Consume_"

I cant remember who concluded that or indeed what book its in... but it seems that you are talking about predatory behaviour whcih is not what I was talking about. Indeed , as you said, most though not all predatory animals do have that or similar hard wired sequence.... though many have modified versions of it, either by selective breeding or by learned behaviour.... or by environmental differences of species....... but anyway... that wasnt what I was talkking about.

The question I asked if I recall was how else can a dog learn what the bite sequence is, not the predatory sequence.

I was talking about the sequence which preceeds a dog bite. From my work with aggression cases... directed toward both people and dogs..... i have come to believe that some or all of this sequence is often learned, not necessarily innate.

For instance, in other more simplistic words, puppies do not instintively know what another dog growling at them means. It is something that they commonly LEARN. From another dog.

I think your comments reference mimicing are a little a question of symantics. As is often the case in internet forums . I wish I had time to further discuss, but I have to get off ot work shortly... but I will come back to hear more of your views. .

Thank you everyone for your input to this thread . Tis fascinating. Denise x


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2012)

tinamary said:


> When jinja gets excited she sneezes and Tilly starts to sneeze as well.


Brilliant  Thanks for that info tinamary. 
Denise x


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Few what a day.....
> I havent the time to respond to a of your points Rottiefan... but I wil when I have less dogs to train... ;-) but this bit caught my eye...
> 
> You said......."_The bite is part of a predatory sequence, which all predatory animals have:
> ...


Sorry for the confusion. By bite sequence I assume you were talking about the predatory sequence.



> I was talking about the sequence which preceeds a dog bite. From my work with aggression cases... directed toward both people and dogs..... i have come to believe that some or all of this sequence is often learned, not necessarily innate.
> 
> For instance, in other more simplistic words, puppies do not instintively know what another dog growling at them means. It is something that they commonly LEARN. From another dog.


I would have to greatly disagree with this. How do they learn it? Vocal communication has long been known to have innate features, i.e. low frequency sounds, with short intervals between vocalisations (like a growl) are signs of aggression whilst high pitched, long inter-vocalisation intervals are more signs of social facilitation. I agree that puppies may not always react appropriately to the growling, and who knows, there could be an onset period for growling to be reacted to (i.e. it is not onset from birth), but since growling is a common trait of many species hazard-avoidance behaviour (which is innate- along with foraging [predatory] and reproductive behaviours) I would argue that puppies don't have to learn it completely. It is a homologous behaviour which is susceptible to natural selection.



> I think your comments reference mimicing are a little a question of symantics. As is often the case in internet forums . I wish I had time to further discuss, but I have to get off ot work shortly... but I will come back to hear more of your views. .
> 
> Thank you everyone for your input to this thread . Tis fascinating. Denise x


I'm not construing semantics here, honestly. We are talking about imitative learning here (mimicking), which is a recognised method of learning in animal behaviour. Animal behaviourists have a specific definition of imitation and ways of testing for it, which is in line with what I am writing here. Since dogs are animals, I suggest this is the definition we use 

Less pedantically, I just want to point out that just because two animals perform similar behaviours after each other, does not imply imitation. There are many other variables and factors that could affect the occurrence of this behaviour, which is what I am interested in finding out. 



tinamary said:


> When jinja gets excited she sneezes and Tilly starts to sneeze as well.


Again, I wouldn't say this is imitation.  Sneezing is a common calming signal, and is highly likely to appear without the other dog doing it first.

By saying that this is imitation, you would also be saying that when someone says 'Hi' to me on the street, I am imitating or mimicking them by saying 'Hello' back. This does not come under the definition of imitation within animal behaviour.


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

Just on the blackberry picking bit - Sherlock did this when he was a very young puppy, and without seeing any person or dog picking blackberries. He just did it instinctively. 

I still don't know for sure where I stand on this, but I am doubtful that dogs do learn by imitation. I don't think that they have the capacity to 'put themselves in another's shoes', as it were, and I think that's needed if you're going to learn by imitation.

The examples are all really interesting though, particularly the retrieval ones, but again, I think this can maybe be put down to a dog's, particularly a gundog's, natural instinct to retrieve - that is what they've been bred for, and they do a lot of these behaviours instinctively. Sherlock (who's from a long line of working cocker spaniels) fetched and dropped balls as an 8 week old pup without being shown what to do, and he will flush out a ball in the same way I see gundogs flushing out birds on videos online - but he's never seen another dog do this and we haven't taught it to him - it's just through heredity that he displays these behaviours.

On the other hand, we have a cat, and I noticed after he'd been with us a few weeks that Sherlock started raising one of his front paws just like our cat does, as though he'd seen her do it and copied it... :confused1:


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> Sorry for the confusion. By bite sequence I assume you were talking about the predatory sequence.
> 
> I would have to greatly disagree with this. How do they learn it? Vocal communication has long been known to have innate features, i.e. low frequency sounds, with short intervals between vocalisations (like a growl) are signs of aggression whilst high pitched, long inter-vocalisation intervals are more signs of social facilitation. I agree that puppies may not always react appropriately to the growling, and who knows, there could be an onset period for growling to be reacted to (i.e. it is not onset from birth), but since growling is a common trait of many species hazard-avoidance behaviour (which is innate- along with foraging [predatory] and reproductive behaviours) I would argue that puppies don't have to learn it completely. It is a homologous behaviour which is susceptible to natural selection.
> 
> ...


. Am loving your points of view . 
So. How do you reckon a dog learns to perform so called Calming signals?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> . Am loving your points of view .
> So. How do you reckon a dog learns to perform so called Calming signals?


Ah, isn't that a question 

The development of communication is a complex subject. Just one look at human language will illustrate the raging feud between 'it is all nurture' versus 'it is all nature' crowds, and all those in between!

There is no doubt, though, that some behaviours are innately performed. We've known this for many years, since Konrad Lorenz looked at 'imprinting' behaviour in ducks or von Frish discovered the Honey Bee's waggle dance in the 1960s, both of who (as well as Niko Tinbergen) won the Nobel Prize for their works.

There are aspects of communication in dogs we know are innate from observation, such as the puppy-retrieval call which onsets at birth and offsets at around 4-weeks old, which biologically effects the mother to retrieve the puppy. This communication (between pup and mother) is innate and takes no learning, per se.

The puppy call is a motor pattern, which are innate sequences of behaviour. These could be species-specific behaviours, such as the puppy-retrieval call, or they may be homologous, i.e. evident across species.

To get to my point, calming signals are, I believe, innate motor patterns. They do not need to be learned, although they may, perhaps, need learning experiences during development to become fully-formed and functioning appropriately. Even innate behaviours are not set-in-stone- they need to the appropriate environment to develop in.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

The two examples that spring to mind with my two dogs are:

Toby eats grass every so often & seems to enjoy this. When we first got roxy she used to watch him do this & after a few times she would also eat grass although did not seem to enjoy it. When I walk the dogs seperately she never eats grass but if out on a walk with Toby & he starts to then so will she.

Roxy loves to hunt small mammals & will listen to them movuing in the grass or will even dig out moles from their holes. When she goes for the 'kill' she willpounce on them like a cat. Toby never used to do this, was never bothered by anything like that (although he would chase animals who run in front of him) but in the past few months he has 'pounced' on several occassions almost exactly the same as Roxy.


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> To get to my point, calming signals are, I believe, innate motor patterns. They do not need to be learned, although they may, perhaps, need learning experiences during development to become fully-formed and functioning appropriately. Even innate behaviours are not set-in-stone- they need to the appropriate environment to develop in.


You see in my experience, dogs which have had no exposure to other dogs for prolonged periods of time, early in their deveopment, can be severly limited, or indeed incapable of, displaying so called calming signals. That is why such dogs need to be rehabilitated. And the successfull rehabilitation of such dogs nearly always requires the involvement of good teaching dogs. Dogs which have the skill to teach other dogs how to talk dog. That has been my experience. Time and time again. hence my different viewpoint.

Maybe my use of the word mimiking was perhaps inappropriate#? I see the word as meaning to copy, or do the same. Perhaps this is not the dictionay definition? but to me, teaching something by showing womeone and that someone to do the same afterwards, is mimcing. Rushd reply and tired eyes, forgive mistakes. Goodnight, denise x


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> The two examples that spring to mind with my two dogs are:
> 
> Toby eats grass every so often & seems to enjoy this. When we first got roxy she used to watch him do this & after a few times she would also eat grass although did not seem to enjoy it. When I walk the dogs seperately she never eats grass but if out on a walk with Toby & he starts to then so will she.
> 
> Roxy loves to hunt small mammals & will listen to them movuing in the grass or will even dig out moles from their holes. When she goes for the 'kill' she willpounce on them like a cat. Toby never used to do this, was never bothered by anything like that (although he would chase animals who run in front of him) but in the past few months he has 'pounced' on several occassions almost exactly the same as Roxy.


They are briliant examples! Thank you. Dog to dog teaching clearly goes on in so many ways. Interestingly there are so far on this thrad there sre very few exampls of dogs coping or mimicing human behaviour. Ths in itself tells us a grat deal. What a trully interesting thread this is. thank you for sharing your brilliant first hand experinces. In mhy view there is too much emphasis placed on research and historic studies. What matters most about research is the subject matter. If you want to find out about the beaviour of pet dogs, then you need to ask pet dog owners. For their dogs are too busy sleeping to worry 
about typing. 

Thank you for taking tme to respond to this thread. Its very usefull to me. Thank you Denise x


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> You see in my experience, dogs which have had no exposure to other dogs for prolonged periods of time, early in their deveopment, can be severly limited, or indeed incapable of, displaying so called calming signals. That is why such dogs need to be rehabilitated. And the successfull rehabilitation of such dogs nearly always requires the involvement of good teaching dogs. Dogs which have the skill to teach other dogs how to talk dog. That has been my experience. Time and time again. hence my different viewpoint.


It may well be that dogs need another dog early in their development to 'onset' the particular behaviours, but there is very little evidence to assume that dogs should need to learn every visual signal by other dogs. That is similar to saying that human babies need to learn every part of their language from humans, which has been known not to the be the case for 50+ years.



> Maybe my use of the word mimiking was perhaps inappropriate#? I see the word as meaning to copy, or do the same. Perhaps this is not the dictionay definition? but to me, teaching something by showing womeone and that someone to do the same afterwards, is mimcing. Rushd reply and tired eyes, forgive mistakes. Goodnight, denise x


Imitation is indeed copying or doing the same, but when speaking about animals behaviour we need to find out if the behaviour is intentional, i.e. is the animal engaging in the same behaviour intentionally to gain the similar experience that another animal it has seen perform the behaviour. There are many factors that affect behaviour and, sadly, observing the behaviour in real life, not under any controlled study with many examples to analyse, makes it difficult to come to any serious conclusion.



CaDeLac Denise said:


> They are briliant examples! Thank you. Dog to dog teaching clearly goes on in so many ways. Interestingly there are so far on this thrad there sre very few exampls of dogs coping or mimicing human behaviour. Ths in itself tells us a grat deal. What a trully interesting thread this is. thank you for sharing your brilliant first hand experinces. *In mhy view there is too much emphasis placed on research and historic studies. What matters most about research is the subject matter. If you want to find out about the beaviour of pet dogs, then you need to ask pet dog owners*. For their dogs are too busy sleeping to worry
> about typing.


Just to respond to this point (above, in bold), I would have to argue against asking pet owners to discover the behaviour of dogs. When analysing behaviour, it is not enough to have seen *a* behaviour once, and claim that the cause of that behaviour, or the reason why that behaviour is performed, is true. There are many other factors involved, which can only be discovered through a) numerous samples of the behaviour and, most importantly, b) rigorous, scientific analysis which controls for factors that can affect this behaviour.

If we do not do the above, how do we know the behaviour has been performed as we believe rather than some other reason? This is what the whole field of science is built upon- the fair testing of hypotheses. Of course, without anecdotal evidence, it makes it difficult to know what hypotheses to test in the first place, but I think you should put more faith in the research of dog behaviour 

How else would we know about dog olfactory communication? Or how dog barks function? Or how dog's perceive the world through their senses? How would we know what affects social relationships? How would we know about dog socialisation, perhaps the most important research ever to be carried out in dog behaviour by Scott and Fuller in 1965?

I'm not having a dig at you here, I just want to demonstrate the effect that science has had and how important it is to analyse things scientifically. For imitative learning, it is almost imperative to do a scientific study, as collecting conclusive evidence is very difficult without.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> ......, but I think you should put more faith in the research of dog behaviour
> 
> How else would we know about dog olfactory communication? Or how dog barks function? Or how dog's perceive the world through their senses? How would we know what affects social relationships? How would we know about dog socialisation, perhaps the most important research ever to be carried out in dog behaviour by Scott and Fuller in 1965?
> 
> I'm not having a dig at you here, I just want to demonstrate the effect that science has had and how important it is to analyse things scientifically. For imitative learning, it is almost imperative to do a scientific study, as collecting conclusive evidence is very difficult without.


"Then how else?????" By watching the dogs themselves and listening to what their behaviour tells us directly?

I have nothing against scientific research......... Except perhaps that much of it has mislead so many for so long....

But personally, perhaps becasue I am fortunate enough to have personal experince of Sooo many dogs, I prefer to listen to what the dogs themselves and their behaviours tell me directly. I learn more form spending a day amongst a dog pack or in a pack of working dogs..... than ever I have learned from books, or TV, or any other medium. It is dogs themselves I feel that offer the best educaton as to what dogs themselves are. But then that is just my view. .

When you watch a pack of dogs that know one another, or indeed a pack of dogs that dont.... you can learn so so so much that the scientists simply dont see. Each group is unique, but within it, their uniqueness...... they affer similarities that are tantilizing as trends. Amazing and inspiring. Dx


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> "Then how else?????" By watching the dogs themselves and listening to what their behaviour tells us directly?
> 
> I have nothing against scientific research......... Except perhaps that much of it has mislead so many for so long....
> 
> ...


I think you forget that scientists do all of that and, more importantly, observe dogs under controlled conditions and manipulate the environment so as their conclusions are valid. This is not to say that the conclusions are 100% true, that's not what science is about. People would be better off reading the science for themselves rather than reading about it in papers, magazines and on Internet web pages and blogs etc. This is when the trouble and misconceptions arise.

The issue is, you can't look at a group (I don't like the word pack ) of dogs and observe a behaviour and say "That behaviour is caused by X, has Y adaptive function and appears through a process of Z". How do you know, though uncontrolled observations, that a dog sniffing the ground is mimicking other dogs and sniffing is a process of learning? Even with a large sample size, if you do not control and manipulate the environment, you can't make that definite conclusion.

By all means, observing dogs is a superb activity to gain knowledge, but unless that observation is controlled for variables and there is a representative sample, we cannot say that dogs are mimicking/imitating each other (to take one example). It's the same issue with dog emotions. People believe dogs have a whole source of emotions and personality traits, everything from jealousy to depression to stubbornness to confidence, but forget that they are not basing this on any direct, valid evidence other than what they interpret the behaviours to mean.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

I respect your view. As I respect everyones unique experince. I wish you well with it and hope that you reap all you wish to from your love of dogs. 

Enjoy. Denise x


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> I respect your view. As I respect everyones unique experince. I wish you well with it and hope that you reap all you wish to from your love of dogs.
> 
> Enjoy. Denise x


You too Denise. I only want to show that science is needed to improve our knowledge of dogs and how to improve their welfare, and that I hope people will take the time to embrace it rather than shunt it in the future. Having our own beliefs are fine, but they are a damn sight better once we know they are backed by real evidence, which is the issue for me in the dog world at the moment- too many opinions, too many problems, too little actual knowledge gained from appropriate sources.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

I have only skimmed this thread but I found myself wondering about how my puppy is learning. Today we had a visit from a friend with a 6 yr old springer. My dog copied every single movement of the older dog and watched him intently. He also disciplined her when she got too boisterous with him, so she was definitely being 'taught'. She doesn't learn much by copying me (I don't eat slippers or grass ) although if I cock my head to one side whilst looking at her she does tilt hers in a mirror image :blink:


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2012)

Kiwi said:


> I have only skimmed this thread but I found myself wondering about how my puppy is learning. Today we had a visit from a friend with a 6 yr old springer. My dog copied every single movement of the older dog and watched him intently. He also disciplined her when she got too boisterous with him, so she was definitely being 'taught'. She doesn't learn much by copying me (I don't eat slippers or grass ) although if I cock my head to one side whilst looking at her she does tilt hers in a mirror image :blink:


Great observations on your part! I have just had a client come with a very over reactive BC puppy. Amazing, a few moments with my dogs and he is trotting alongside them, with not a care ijnt eh world.

Many of the probelems that we see in pet dogs are I believe as a result of their not having a suitabkle adult dog to learn from. There is no doubt in my mind that many of the communication skills that puppys learn, as thy develop, are learnt most effectively from other sensible well socialised dogs. AS we do.

I learnt to great people from my parents, i learned to greet lovers from my first lover and I learnt to great friends from my friends. I also learnt what is and isnt acceptable social behaviour from those I socialised eith, Dogs are no different, methinks. Some things are innate, ... but by far the majprity of skills are learnt from other dogs.

Soudns like the visit from the older dog was of great benefit to your youngster . isnt it brilliant - watchign them learn ;-)


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> Having our own beliefs are fine, but they are a damn sight better once we know they are backed by real evidence,


Personally, I believe that only dogs themselves can decide what is and is not a valid belief. There is nothing any scientist can ever tell me.. and I know a few .. That will override what my dogs show me to be the real facts. REAL evidence, is what dogs DO in response to what HAPPENS to them. And I see that all day, everyday........ For example if someone tells me that a predatory sequence is hard wired and I find a dog for whom the predatory sequence is not apparent (and they are out there) then that tells me, that Predatory sequences are NOT hard wired in all dogs. Its that simple.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Personally, I believe that only dogs themselves can decide what is and is not a valid belief. There is nothing any scientist can ever tell me.. and I know a few .. That will override what my dogs show me to be the real facts. REAL evidence, is what dogs DO in response to what HAPPENS to them. And I see that all day, everyday........ For example if someone tells me that a predatory sequence is hard wired and I find a dog for whom the prtedatory sequence is not apparent (and they are out there) then that tells me, that Predatory sequences are NOT hard wired in all dogs. Its that simple.


One thing too that I have always wondered about is the emphasis on the "controlled test situation" life isnt controlled and situations can arise as one offs or repetitive and at any time, a dog just naturally reacts to what happens to be there and the situation at the time. Depending on the dogs individual temperament too that response will differ, even dogs of different ages will react differently to different situations. Health problems like Hypo Thyroid can affect Behaviour too, so a dog below parr will act differently and react differently to one that is fit and healthy maybe. So can you actually get a controlled test condition thats reliable and even if you control the situation how can you be 100% sure that the sample of dogs/breeds/crosses/ages/health is a fair and accurate sample base. 
Genetics, early rearing, environment, habituation and socilisation are going to play a part too surely, so no dog is going to be a perfect clone and alike to use as a test control sample. Ive know people breed litters, rear them obviously exactly the same, train them the same, and the dogs have remained for life with them, and still they are not always the same and react to situations sights and sounds the same and have exactly the same behavior. Surely that is much more accurate then a few weeks scientific test and research programme or even if it is several months. Personally I think you can never harness nature and get to the bottom of mother nature herself.
Then again I could be talking out of my hat Ive been told several times I am.:001_huh:


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> One thing too that I have always wondered about is the emphasis on the "controlled test situation" life isnt controlled and situations can arise as one offs or repetitive and at any time, a dog just naturally reacts to what happens to be there and the situation at the time. Depending on the dogs individual temperament too that response will differ, even dogs of different ages will react differently to different situations. Health problems like Hypo Thyroid can affect Behaviour too, so a dog below parr will act differently and react differently to one that is fit and healthy maybe. So can you actually get a controlled test condition thats reliable and even if you control the situation how can you be 100% sure that the sample of dogs/breeds/crosses/ages/health is a fair and accurate sample base.
> Genetics, early rearing, environment, habituation and socilisation are going to play a part too surely, so no dog is going to be a perfect clone and alike to use as a test control sample. Ive know people breed litters, rear them obviously exactly the same, train them the same, and the dogs have remained for life with them, and still they are not always the same and react to situations sights and sounds the same and have exactly the same behavior. Surely that is much more accurate then a few weeks scientific test and research programme or even if it is several months. Personally I think you can never harness nature and get to the bottom of mother nature herself.
> Then again I could be talking out of my hat Ive been told several times I am.:001_huh:


Its been a while since Ive found a post I agree more with! Abso blooming lutely.....!!!! Every situation is utterly unique... and what I have found is that the more dogs one encounters... the more one realises how much there still is to learn.... I think that scientific studies of dogs and groups of dogs can be helpful and interesting, but there is very little "broad spectrum" information that can be applied to all dogs. other than, they need light, air, food and water to survive and the opposite sex to reproduce. Everything else.... is relative. Methinks.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Its been a while since Ive found a post I agree more with! Abso blooming lutely.....!!!! Every situation is utterly unique... and what I have found is that the more dogs one encounters... the more one realises how much there still is to learn.... I think that scientific studies of dogs and groups of dogs can be helpful and interesting, but there is very little "broad spectrum" information that can be applied to all dogs. other than, they need light, air, food and water to survive and the opposite sex to reproduce. Everything else.... is relative. Methinks.


Couldnt agree more, like you maybe most if not nearly all is from things Ive seen and experienced, Welfare dogs Ive seen and or picked up, Friends large Packs that are all related. other friends with a number of dogs some put together some related. Friends and neighbours dogs Ive helped with, training classes ive been too. Discusions with a few trainers behaviourists, and other long term dog owners, breeders and exhibitors who have much more experience, Academically, personal and professionally then I do. I dont read heavily as such, just training, health ans welfare issues I find interesting and relevant maybe. I havent got much in the way of formal or paper qualifications well actually none really and can only really offer suggestions and experience. But as far as that goes it seems to have served quite well with this lot and the others Ive owned and dogs Ive encountered along the way.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Couldnt agree more, like you maybe most if not nearly all is from things Ive seen and experienced, Welfare dogs Ive seen and or picked up, Friends large Packs that are all related. other friends with a number of dogs some put together some related. Friends and neighbours dogs Ive helped with, training classes ive been too. Discusions with a few trainers behaviourists, and other long term dog owners, breeders and exhibitors who have much more experience, Academically, personal and professionally then I do. I dont read heavily as such, just training, health ans welfare issues I find interesting and relevant maybe. I havent got much in the way of formal or paper qualifications well actually none really and can only really offer suggestions and experience. But as far as that goes it seems to have served quite well with this lot and the others Ive owned and dogs Ive encountered along the way.


The proof is in the pudding as they say. After 10 years of public speaking about dogs..... and too many years to think about teachin thema nd people.....We've come to realise at work that that many people will believe what they are told or have read or heard......... but few people will trully believe what they themselves are forced to conclude from their own experiences. You have to be breave to face up tot he ersponsibility that what you experince may differ from "published findings" or the "ACCEPTED NORM". But it is often such findings that really give rise to major break throughs in understanding.

The littlest of things can bring about the most massive changes....

For instance, we have found the the TYPE of tug toy introduced to a puppy will likely affect the viability of whether or not that puppy goes on to be toy motivated ... A small finding with relatively massive implications. . . A toy motivated dog is less likely to become a chaser of other things! And in so doing is less likely to get into trouble.

For instance, the location of a dogs bed is CRUCIAL, to its mental wellbeing and the harmony of the household.. and can be casuative as to the likelihood of a dog deveoping aggressive tendencies...

For instance, Hand feeding a dog , even if for only a few months.... brings about such big changes in the reationship an owner has with it, that the learning process can be positively affected for the rest of its ife.

What happens in the first three days of puppy ownership can directly affect the responsiveness of a dogs recall for the rest of its life.

Non of these is scientifically proven, but all of them are proven by the pudding of feedback from our clients.

And dont even get me started on whether pack structure exists! ....

Sorry gone off thread a bit now


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> The proof is in the pudding as they say. After 10 years of public speaking about dogs..... and too many years to think about teachin thema nd people.....We've come to realise at work that that many people will believe what they are told or have read or heard......... but few people will trully believe what they themselves are forced to conclude from their own experiences. You have to be breave to face up tot he ersponsibility that what you experince may differ from "published findings" or the "ACCEPTED NORM". But it is often such findings that really give rise to major break throughs in understanding.
> 
> The littlest of things can bring about the most massive changes....
> 
> ...


Its strange how the smallest thing can effect how and what dogs do, and how we ourselves can be culprits in causing it and we dont even realise. I have told this story before on house training threads and you may or may not have seen it but its a good illustration if you havent.

Kobi my Malamute was doing ace with his toilet training we were all but there.
Suddenly he started coming back in and peeing again indoors after I had succesfully taken him out. It carried on here and there for a couple of days.
There was me thinking he maybe had an infection, there was a reason why he couldnt completely empty his bladder etc. The it dawned on me, it was me!!
originally and what I always advise on toileting is, use a cue word when they start to go from the beginning, when finished loads of praise and treats.
What Dummy here had suddenly started doing was, started praising whilst he was in mid flow, greedy pup had learned that praise was cue for treat, so he was literally stopping himself so was his greed and anticipation for the treat. I was thinking he had finished treated him and brought him in then a short while after he needed to go, so was doing and instant pee there and then (too young still at this stage for early warning obviously and still needed a degree of reminding) So a good illustration how we can muck things up training wise without even realising

Another illustration of dogs learning and we dont know it even was Kobi and the Ice Cream van, again a story I have told before but amusing anyway.
The Ice cream man who was on one of our regular walks, started giving Kobi a mini ice cream. After one or two, we noticed if there was a cue, he would walk to the back and sit and wait no need to be told. Then we noticed he always sat when the hand went to the handle of the machine. When there wasnt a cue, he would stand and wait at the window, also when there was no cue the engine wasnt running as that was needed to make the machine work. We then noticed in this scenario, he would sit himself as soon as the engine went on.
One day the engine was running, he had his Ice cream I had a chat and went to move him off, he wouldnt go, I asked the man to try an experiment and turn off the engine, engine off he was happy to leave obviously he worked out no more in the offing then. Another situation he had his ice cream and as things were quiet, the engine was turned off again. I had a chat and cuppa, and we went on our way, but as we got a distance away someone turned up and the engine was turned on, he did an immediate about turn and tried to drag me back again. So again dogs must be clocking up and working out things all the time. Whcih is probably how they learn all the stuff we dont want in the first place

Probably digressed even more from the topic or actually I suppose it could come under mimicing behaviour or the ice cream tale anyhow.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2012)

No time tyo reply. but great post. Gotta go to trainingh now. Back later. Denise x


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

When I was training my puppy, I used my older dog to demonstrate what I wanted. Puppy certainly learnt by watching the older dog - sometimes a few 'looks' was all it took.

When the puppy (Kite) had grown up and started competing at agility, I was at a competition with her and one of the courses had a wall in it, an obstacle she had never encountered before. I took her to the perimeter of the ring as close to it as I could get, and told her the dogs that jumped it were good, and the ones that wouldn't were bad. Watched it for about 10 minutes then joined the queue. Kite jumped it without a hitch.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Its strange how the smallest thing can effect how and what dogs do, and how we ourselves can be culprits in causing it and we dont even realise. I have told this story before on house training threads and you may or may not have seen it but its a good illustration if you havent.
> 
> Kobi my Malamute was doing ace with his toilet training we were all but there.
> Suddenly he started coming back in and peeing again indoors after I had succesfully taken him out. It carried on here and there for a couple of days.
> ...


Great and interestng exmples !  Its amazing what they learn form us. And take advantage of in a very clever way. The way dogs learn things I often think that they must record everything that happens in their mind somewhere and then work out the preceeding sequence. And they do this as a default setting. All dogs learn to use their enivonment, not becasue they azre trying to take over the world..... well most aren't.... I wonder sometimes about Cloud though ..... but becasue its the sensible thing to do. Very intelligent things dogs. Very intelligent. AND to be respected by a they encounter.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> When I was training my puppy, I used my older dog to demonstrate what I wanted. Puppy certainly learnt by watching the older dog - sometimes a few 'looks' was all it took.
> 
> When the puppy (Kite) had grown up and started competing at agility, I was at a competition with her and one of the courses had a wall in it, an obstacle she had never encountered before. I took her to the perimeter of the ring as close to it as I could get, and told her the dogs that jumped it were good, and the ones that wouldn't were bad. Watched it for about 10 minutes then joined the queue. Kite jumped it without a hitch.


Wow. Thats great info. Thank you for your reply. Hmmm. SOunds like you really know your dogs. Well done! I think Ill try that one! Can anyone lend me a top class sheep dog that Connor can look up to.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> When I was training my puppy, I used my older dog to demonstrate what I wanted. Puppy certainly learnt by watching the older dog - sometimes a few 'looks' was all it took.
> 
> When the puppy (Kite) had grown up and started competing at agility, I was at a competition with her and one of the courses had a wall in it, an obstacle she had never encountered before. I took her to the perimeter of the ring as close to it as I could get, and told her the dogs that jumped it were good, and the ones that wouldn't were bad. Watched it for about 10 minutes then joined the queue. Kite jumped it without a hitch.





CaDeLac Denise said:


> Wow. Thats great info. Thank you for your reply. Hmmm. SOunds like you really know your dogs. Well done! I think Ill try that one! Can anyone lend me a top class sheep dog that Connor can look up to.


I must admit I found it does help too, although very good at training and intelligent too Nanuq my Malamute/siberian mix was really slow to get the down. I had both of them in the garden one day training together and got kobi to do it and Nan followed him and I never had another problem. So Old dogs, or older are deffinately useful in teaching new tricks. Mind you works the other way too, they can teach the young ones things you are not so keen on too.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Personally, I believe that only dogs themselves can decide what is and is not a valid belief. There is nothing any scientist can ever tell me.. and I know a few .. That will override what my dogs show me to be the real facts. REAL evidence, is what dogs DO in response to what HAPPENS to them. And I see that all day, everyday........ For example if someone tells me that a predatory sequence is hard wired and I find a dog for whom the predatory sequence is not apparent (and they are out there) then that tells me, that Predatory sequences are NOT hard wired in all dogs. Its that simple.


Two things (I'll keep it short!):

1) You say that real evidence is what dogs do in a response to what happens to them. I don't really understand this personally! What dogs do in response to what happens to them gives us grounds to make a claim, a hypothesis about the cause of the behaviour. It is not evidence for anything until it has been analysed in a valid manner, e.g. through controlled observations and statistical analysis. In other words, seeing something happen with our own eyes is not a valid test of something. Of course, we can make claims- and they may be true- but it is wrong to say that it is 'real evidence'. If that was so, we'd get nowhere in the world as there would be no definition or structure to gaining information.

2) Predatory sequences are hardwired. Because they don't always appear in dogs is not that it is wrong, it is, with respect, because you have misunderstood what hard-wired behaviours means. Innate behaviours can still be changed through development. For example, Dr Coppinger in the 1960s used numerous litters from livestock guarding (mastiffs) and livestock herding (border collies) to test how the environment changed their behaviour. Sure enough, collies who were socialised with sheep from 6 weeks old didn't display predatory motor patterns to sheep when their predatory behaviours had been 'onset' (eye-stalk-chase-grab bite mostly). Likewise, mastiffs didn't chase livestock if their were socialised with them before the onset of their chase motor patterns. Interestingly, the reverse was true: collies displayed predatory motor patterns towards sheep if they weren't socialised; mastiffs also if they weren't. So, innate motor patterns are susceptible to changes, usually known as: hypertrophies, deletions and substitutions.



Sled dog hotel said:


> One thing too that I have always wondered about is the emphasis on the "controlled test situation" *life isnt controlled and situations can arise as one offs or repetitive and at any time*, a dog just naturally reacts to what happens to be there and the situation at the time. Depending on the dogs individual temperament too that response will differ, even dogs of different ages will react differently to different situations. Health problems like Hypo Thyroid can affect Behaviour too, so a dog below parr will act differently and react differently to one that is fit and healthy maybe. So can you actually get a controlled test condition thats reliable and even if you control the situation how can you be 100% sure that the sample of dogs/breeds/crosses/ages/health is a fair and accurate sample base.
> Genetics, early rearing, environment, habituation and socilisation are going to play a part too surely, so no dog is going to be a perfect clone and alike to use as a test control sample. Ive know people breed litters, rear them obviously exactly the same, train them the same, and the dogs have remained for life with them, and still they are not always the same and react to situations sights and sounds the same and have exactly the same behavior. Surely that is much more accurate then a few weeks scientific test and research programme or even if it is several months. Personally I think you can never harness nature and get to the bottom of mother nature herself.
> Then again I could be talking out of my hat Ive been told several times I am.:001_huh:


Good point! You are completely right that there are many difficulties in doing a controlled test. But, looking at any good scientific paper, they will have controlled for many variables, e.g. all dogs will be around the same age, with sound personalities, same breed (sometimes), good health, average responses to the tests etc. Wherever variables can't reliably be controlled for, well, there are other means, e.g. large sample sizes and using the correct statistical method to take out any erroneous results and gaining the correct degree of significance.

I just want to point out though that science is not about doing tests for a couple of weeks. There are many longitudinal analyses of behaviour where the development of pups/ {insert-animal-here} have been systematically analysed. There's one between hand-reared dogs and wolves here, for example:
http://www.behav.org/00library/articles/dog/dog_wolf_attachment.pdf



CaDeLac Denise said:


> Its been a while since Ive found a post I agree more with! Abso blooming lutely.....!!!! Every situation is utterly unique... and what I have found is that the more dogs one encounters... the more one realises how much there still is to learn.... I think that scientific studies of dogs and groups of dogs can be helpful and interesting, but there is very little "broad spectrum" information that can be applied to all dogs. other than, they need light, air, food and water to survive and the opposite sex to reproduce. Everything else.... is relative. Methinks.


I have to wonder how much science you have actually read? I ask because I only think it is fair to criticise something if you have put the energy into researching it for yourself. If you haven't, then I think you should. The amount of scientific information there is on many aspects of dog behaviour is very helpful for training and living with dogs. Currently, there's some great work being done on housing dogs in rescue centres, looking into enrichment plans, e.g. how to habituate dogs to kennels, how training helps to make dogs more adoptable, how does sensory stimuli like music and smells affect dog behaviour. I think it's really sad to think that people will just dismiss this because it is science and they think that their own beliefs and desires are correct and not susceptible to change!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Apologies for not reading the whole thread but I'm tired and it's not really going in, but just wanted add to your question on dogs copying human behaviour. There is a system you may be aware of which was developed in Hungary called "Mirror Training". A group of people training dogs by showing what they want and getting the dogs to copy. Can't remember atm what they are called but they are quite well known and do displays and demonstrations. They made a couple of quite well known video clips of their dogs decorating a Christmas Tree, and having a beach party.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

A doggy summer - A kutyák is szeretik a strandot - YouTube

this is them.

http://www.kutyasuli.hu/


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## PinkEars (Jun 4, 2010)

Barkie said:


> I don't know if this counts but I got fed up of being pestered by my dog when I was picking blackberries as she was waiting for me to feed them to her so I showed her where they grew lower down and she picked her own. I then got a WSD/BC pup and she copied what the elder dog was doing. I must say the pup also checked with me first if it was ok to do it.


Lola for a long time has loved blackberries and quickly learnt how to pull them off the bush. I used to pick them for her and throw them and then she got inpatient and started helping herself. When we got the whippet puppy he copied Lola straight away to the bush and started taking his own berries. I think thats probably just because a pup always wants to sniff and eat what anyone else is eating so was immediantly drawn to the berries when Lola did it. Rather than him copying her behaviour its just he was a curious puppy wanting to see what she was eating!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Another topic people might be interested in 'stimulus enhancement'. Basically, it means that animals will be attracted to a stimulus if something 'enhances' it, i.e. if another dog is investigating something, it enhances whatever it is they are investigating. The other dog is attracted to it, goes an investigates it, then produces the same behaviour because it is a species-typical behaviour trait to a certain stimulus. Meaning, it doesn't have to mean the dog is actually imitating the other dog's behaviour.


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## PinkEars (Jun 4, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Another topic people might be interested in 'stimulus enhancement'. Basically, it means that animals will be attracted to a stimulus if something 'enhances' it, i.e. if another dog is investigating something, it enhances whatever it is they are investigating. The other dog is attracted to it, goes an investigates it, then produces the same behaviour because it is a species-typical behaviour trait to a certain stimulus. Meaning, it doesn't have to mean the dog is actually imitating the other dog's behaviour.


that was what i was trying to say with my waffle but you put it much better! :thumbup1:


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