# Help! Training Puppy around 3 dogs and another puppy?



## littlemisschelsey (Jun 23, 2008)

Okay, I have just moved back into my parents with my 7and a half week old miniature dachshund girl - Molly. Also living here are my younger brother (16), 3 dogs and another puppy. The three eldest dogs are fine and don't really need much training (we are working on reinforcing a few things with them) but Molly's training doesn't seem to be going very well. I'd also like to work on some training with my Mum's 17week old Teacup Yorkie - Maddie.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Molly - I've had her for 1 week at my old house and we were doing great with training - she had reliably learned "sit" "paw" and "come" as probably only had about 5 housetraining accidents through the whole week. We have only been here 3 days and already she seems to have completely forgotten "come" and will only "sit" and "paw" if the other dogs aren't in the same room as she gets really distracted. It now takes a few attempts at getting her to sit/paw. Should I go back to pushing bum to ground as I say sit, giving treat and saying good girl and reinforce this for another few days and then start to work on paw again. Should I give her the treat of she sits/ gives a paw before I give the command as she sometimes gets excited and does this as soon as she sees the treat? How can I teach recall when she completely ignores me even if I wave a treat or toy at her?

Housetraining is now awful with her seemingly not needing to go when I take her out to the garden (every 1hour or so for 5-10mins) and then using the carpet about 10 mins after we come back in. It is pretty rainy and windy here in Scotland and she just runs to the back door to get back in even if I try to distract her with a treat or toy.

She is also getting pretty aggresive like when I pick her up (gently) to take her to pee she snaps and growls at me! Also sometimes when I pick her up at night to take her upstairs/downstairs in morning.

She also doesnt sleep through the night, I have a dog bed with a ticking clock and hot water bottle wrapped up in it next to my bed. I can settle her in this about 10.30pm and she will sleep until 1am and then cry and scream until I lift her into my bed. I try to ignore her but she has woken my brother before. I can understand her anxiety as the breeder only let the Mum in once or twice a day from 4 weeks and half her littermates were sold by 5 weeks. I picked her up the day she turned 6 weeks and she has been playing with my Mums little yorkie puppy (17 weeks old) like she is a litter mate. The only time they are separated is at night when Maddie sleeps in my parents room.

Maddie - Maddie is a teacup yorkie 17 weeks old and my mum has had her since she was 11weeks. She is very very very hyper active and loves to run about and make a high pitched yappy noise. When she gets too noisy we give her a quick squirt with a little water pistle and she calms down for a bit. Molly and Maddie play great but Maddie can be very tiring wanting to play 24/7 and Molly can get aggressive with her. Maddie reliably knows "come" and we are working on "sit". She doesn't walk very well on the lead. I need a bit of advice on how to calm her down a bit! She sleeps next to my Mums bed when she wants to and then in bed with my Mum when shes having a whining night.

We also have Flynn (Huge springer spaniel/pointer cross 2yr old), Amber (cocker spaniel 2yr6months old) and Gizmo (Shih Tzu 3 year old). These are all fairly well lead trained, know basic commands and have a mostly reliable recall.

Thanks folks


----------



## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Firstly its a bit appaling that you have had this puppy from 6weeks of age. 
Secondly there is no such a thing as a Teacup Yorkie, just a bad breeders expalnations for more money
Thirdly your puppy may be confused after moving and obviously unsettled
Fourthly I think you are expecting far too much from a 7 week old puppy

Good Luck


----------



## Guest (Jun 24, 2008)

It sounds very chaotic- if i were a babe like ur pup and had been uprooted to such a place i would probably regress.

What you need to do is get your self the gwen bailey perfect puppy book and get your mum to read it too.


----------



## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

My neighbour got her miniature dachshund at 6 weeks and he will be 8 weeks tomorrow and going for first jab. Ive been giving her tips as the breeder said pup was to eat weetabix and pedigree pup food then change to dried food. 
Surely some of a pups training must come from the mum so must be harder/longer to train. Just keep going over the same thing & dont try to get pup to remember too many commands ............bless her


----------



## Beardy (Jun 4, 2008)

It sounds like a mad-house! When ever you train Molly, make sure it is fun & also make sure you are on a one-to-one basis with her. There is no way that you will get her attention with all those dogs running about & causing havoc in the background. Please remember, she is only a baby, I think you are expecting far too much of her at the moment. My mini-wire was quite easy to house train, but I do remember that he didn't like to go out when it was raining or windy.


----------



## littlemisschelsey (Jun 23, 2008)

clueless said:


> Firstly its a bit appaling that you have had this puppy from 6weeks of age.
> Secondly there is no such a thing as a Teacup Yorkie, just a bad breeders expalnations for more money
> Thirdly your puppy may be confused after moving and obviously unsettled
> Fourthly I think you are expecting far too much from a 7 week old puppy
> ...


1 - I know it is appalling, I was told she was 8 weeks old (on the phone) and travelled 100 miles to pick her up. When I arrived there was only her and two littermates left. One of the littermates had been reserved and another person was coming to see the pups a few hours after I left. The pups were small and kept in a large rabbit run outside. I asked their age (again) for reassurance. This was when I was told that they were 6 weeks old. I suggested leaving her another 2 or 3 weeks with the other two littermates but as said before 1 was already reserved and was being picked up in a few days and the other was sold later the same day. The breeder told me that they had been separated from their Mum from four weeks as she had taken ill and some of the pups had been hand reared. I thought about saying no but then what would the point have been? I also considered asking him to keep the puppy for 1 week until I had moved house, I changed my mind as the poor girl would have ended up even more unsettled being left outside all day and night on her own. If I didn't take her she'd have been left on her own anyway and may not even have gone to a good home. Yes, I spoke with someone about my concerns about the breeder but sadly there is nothing that can be done - I live in Scotland and there are no laws regarding when puppies can be separated from Mum and littermates.

2 - I know there is no real breed standard teacup yorkie, it is an expression we use as she is the runt of the litter and this is why she was kept with her mother until she was 11 weeks. She is now doing very well thank you and the only advice I was asking was on her training as her hyperactivity tends to interfere with this. Yes, her hyperactivity is probably influenced by poor breeding!

3 - Of course the puppy is confused and unsettled, I have had her in the bedroom with me since I got her to help her settle in and will gradually move her into the "dog's living room" where the other dogs sleep calmly in their own beds. Again, I was asking for tips on how I can do this. She is not unsettled throughout the day, we have constant routine with the dogs for walks, playtime, feeding time etc. (of course I'm not walking her as she won't get her final vaccine until 10weeks) and this has helped her immensely. She doesn't cry throughout the day at all, loves to play etc. and is very clever.

4 - I realise this now, I was fooled as she learned her name and the commands "come" "sit" and "paw" in the first week excellently. I now realise that this was my mistake to teach her this quickly and we are now forgetting about everything except reinforcing her name and the come command this week.

5 - You are making us feel like awful owners! Reading back, my post has come across all wrong and chaotic. I'm only looking for some tips on training little Molly. Mum only works 2 nights a week and I work 5 days a week so there is someone with the dogs 99.9% of the time. Mum devotes her life to the dogs and would do anything for them. We make sure we feed and walk/run them appropriately.

We've trained the other dogs excellently but just seemed to have let things slide this time and I was just looking for some tips from personal experience on how to get things back on track.

House training has improved dramatically, no accidents today - must just have been the upset from moving, I should have known this.

I don't seem to have any friendly replies, we are nice caring people, I just come across awful in that first post. Our dog Flynn is a rescue cross we got at just 4-5 weeks from a canine rescue centre. He is now a confident, friendly obedient dog! Whe was 10 weeks old Mum fell in love with Amber - our 2and a half year old cocker. She spotted her while walking the dogs and was told that she was a gunshy working dog and was kennelled all day except for one walk. That was it, she just had to have her! She already knew her basic commands we have just built on these. Gizmo - Shih Tzu was a foster dog we got when she was a year old, we ended up keeping her and she is now well trained although stubborn. We didn't plan on getting any more dogs and then came the advert for poor tiny Maddie - same story all over again had to have her! We then decided to go for Molly as Flynn prefers his own company while Amber and Gizmo have a strong bond and like to be just the two of them. So Molly is Maddie's "buddy".

Sorry this is a huge essay.

Thanks.


----------



## littlemisschelsey (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks very much Beardy and wooliewoo, just needed some reassurance I was doing the right thing ans wasn't going to end up with a poor traumatised puppy. RE the housetraining am I supposed to do anything when I catch her in the act in the house? I have just been firmly saying no, picking her up when she stops and then taking her outside and praising her if she finishes. 

Thanks.


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Everytime you feed your pup or she has a drink or wakes up from sleep take her to your chosen area and use the command you have chosen for instance ours is 'hurry up' now when we go to shows or take them anywhere we can tell them to hurry up and they empty out  you are doing the right thing but if you can catch her before she starts she will learn alot quicker and no smells in the house for the others to 'mark' either.

Take the basic training slowly let her have some fun first and just teach her one thing at a time her little brain will not be able to take too much in I would try and crack the house training first and then move onto the basic commands - dont try to pack too much in she has had a lot of upheaval in her young life already and perhaps didnt have an awful lot of socialising where she came from.

Good luck with your tribe it will work out stick with it


----------



## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

Once she's settled a bit better she will also learn from the other housemates, its just a time game at the moment especially as in an ideal world she would still be with mum. This time next week it will be a different story im sure..........one of the new owners of my pups visits weekly, each time they notice a dramatic change in the pups and they are still only 4 weeks old, enjoy her as a puppy....... soon she will be a "grown up"!!!!


----------



## lindsaymelican (Jul 27, 2008)

I have three great golden retrievers, a 9 yr. old, 1 yr old and a 15 wk old (I know we're crazy). but I am having hard time training the baby without the 1 yr. old getting jealous, and really acting left out and sad. Any suggestions on how to train him at home without the middle child getting in the way? he is SO smart, but he can only sit and lay down. When there were just two, I was able to train our 1 yr. old on many things far quicker. The baby just wants to follow the others around, and sometimes it's as if I am not even there. i am grateful I trained the 1 yr old so well to come, and stay etc., so he follows suit, but I need to train him 1 on 1 so he know's I am boss. i would prefer to do it onsite, but maybe someone has some input on advice?
Thx.
Major dog lover


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

lindsaymelican said:


> I have three great golden retrievers, a 9 yr. old, 1 yr old and a 15 wk old (I know we're crazy). but I am having hard time training the baby without the 1 yr. old getting jealous, and really acting left out and sad. Any suggestions on how to train him at home without the middle child getting in the way? he is SO smart, but he can only sit and lay down. When there were just two, I was able to train our 1 yr. old on many things far quicker. The baby just wants to follow the others around, and sometimes it's as if I am not even there. i am grateful I trained the 1 yr old so well to come, and stay etc., so he follows suit, but I need to train him 1 on 1 so he know's I am boss. i would prefer to do it onsite, but maybe someone has some input on advice?
> Thx.
> Major dog lover


Train your pup in the garden and keep the older 2 busy inside with a frozen filled kong or a bone. This is what I have to do with my 2 NI's if i try and train them together they just want to play


----------



## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Hi,

At such an early age the only thing you need to be doing is house training. Normally a puppy (from a good breeder), will leave its litter mates at 12 weeks and go to its new home. Then the puppy should be given a week or so to settle in.

Basic obedience training can then commence, so for now just let Molly settle in find her place and have fun.

Obviously you'll want to correct her for any undesired behaviour, and in most instances this is best achieved by ignoring the undersired behaviour completely; no verbal/eye contact, be aloof... then encourage the desired behaviour and reward with petting/verbal praise/treats.

Molly has been taken form her litter mates way too early so she is bound to have some behavioural issues as a consequence, but be patient with her and don't expect too much at this age, in truth dogs are always learning 

It sounds to me like Molly is just trying to find her place within the new pack, (hence the barking when you pick her up), and it is your responsibility to act and be a leader. This process would take way too long for me to explain here, so the best thing you can do for Molly, yourself, and the rest of the dogs is buy this book:

The Perfect Puppy - By Gwen Bailey

This book covers everything, explains how dogs learn, shows you how to become a leader, and how to correct unwanted behaviour in a positive way.

One quick thing I will mention though is what's happening at bedtime. As Molly is very young she should be taken out at least once during the night to do her toilet.

She should sleep on her own bed, not on your bed, even if she does bark/whine. If you pick her up when she does this then you are teaching her that barking/whining will result in her getting her own way (dogs are very manipulate, even at the cute puppy stage, so you don't want to encourage this behaviour). If she is sniffing around then take her outside so she can do her thing, but should you do this with the least fuss, and be calm when you do so.

Then it's straight back to bed and Molly goes back to her bed. Other than if you think she needs to toilet, (which should only be once during the night), ignore all other attempts at her seeking attention.

If you can do this you'll find that within a week she will understand the routine. At 3 months she should be able to go for 6 hours at night, but not for 6 hours during the day, obviously 

Hope this helps

Angela


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

I know its slightly off subject, but i have seen it written many times on the forum that it is terrible that a pup leaves the litter prior to 8 weeks, I believe this to be untrue, my husband and myself always get or pups at 6 weeks. I have found it to be damaging for the pup to stay longer than this in certain cases, i.e. large boisterous litters or quiet environments. A strong fully weaned pup at the age of six weeks settles in very quickly, especially if the breeder has done their work on establishing a coping strategy in the dog for being left alone for small periods of time, they tend to be friendly with other dogs, but not boisterous, nervous, or obsessed, as long as you got a good pup in the first place and continued to socialise it correctly.

Back to the actual question, Molly has gone from a quiet environment into a busy one, none of her training was sound enough to carry through strongly in the new environment, nothing you'd done wrong, just didn't have enough time.

Continue with your training of yours and your mums pup, on their own at first, without the distractions of the other dogs.
Once that seems to be going really well have the quietest calmest dog in the room laid down while you train the pup.
Gradually up the criteria to other areas or extra dogs, if you start to see a breakdown in your training, you have just gone too far too soon, go back to the previous step.

I don't envy you training two pups its hard work.

Your pup is probably just confused about toilet training, stay out with her until shes been, even if it takes an hour so you can praise, at least its nice weather at the moment, its much worse if its raining or snowing.

Good luck with you training.


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

I feel it's important thing I feel is that the training take place as a one to one with non of the other dogs present.

Please do not teach a dog 'paw'! IMO the only time a dog should raise it's paw it as a form of submission, unfortunately my pup has managed to pick up this irritating habit from some muppet who thought it would be funny to teach her without me knowing. 

I have got to fly now but do find you post interesting and will have another look later, and hopefully be able to point you to some links
regards
Sue


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> I know its slightly off subject, but i have seen it written many times on the forum that it is terrible that a pup leaves the litter prior to 8 weeks, I believe this to be untrue, my husband and myself always get or pups at 6 weeks. I have found it to be damaging for the pup to stay longer than this in certain cases, i.e. large boisterous litters or quiet environments. A strong fully weaned pup at the age of six weeks settles in very quickly, especially if the breeder has done their work on establishing a coping strategy in the dog for being left alone for small periods of time, they tend to be friendly with other dogs, but not boisterous, nervous, or obsessed, as long as you got a good pup in the first place and continued to socialise it correctly.
> 
> .


I kind of agree with you, but if a pup is being properly reared, it is beneficial for the pup to stay with Mum and littermates longer, especially if the new owner is not experienced or doesn't have another dog, as puppies learn valuble lessons, such as the start of bite inhibition and how to behave around other dogs whilst still in the litter.

Guide dog pups leave their Mum's at 6 weeks. I personally like my puppies to stay until just a bit longer than 7 weeks, but am happy for them to go before 8 if all circumstances warrant it. No puppy I have bred has ever cried at night in their new homes, and all have slept in the kitchen.


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I feel it's important thing I feel is that the training take place as a one to one with non of the other dogs present.
> 
> Please do not teach a dog 'paw'! IMO the only time a dog should raise it's paw it as a form of submission, unfortunately my pup has managed to pick up this irritating habit from some muppet who thought it would be funny to teach her without me knowing.
> 
> ...


For what reason do you think a dog should not be taught 'paw'?


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

dogpositivetraining said:


> Hi,
> 
> At such an early age the only thing you need to be doing is house training. Normally a puppy (from a good breeder), will leave its litter mates at 12 weeks and go to its new home. Then the puppy should be given a week or so to settle in.
> 
> Angela


One thing I would have to disagree on on this one - 12 weeks imo is way too long for a pup to remain with the litter, the majority of weims I know on with problems have been due to 'unsufficient socializing (between the 8-12 week period' )usually solded cheeply by PF's between 12-16 weeks of age, don;'t imagine I am alone on this
regards
Sue


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

I think I have to say sorry to the create of this post Jasper, I had no right to say that you should not ask for 'paw' we all expect different things from our dogs, there is a genuine person here, being truthful and asking advise, I went in like a bull at a gate. SORRY
regards
Sue
xxx
No hard feelings I hope!!!!


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

jackson said:


> For what reason do you think a dog should not be taught 'paw'?


 I have said I am sorry to the creator of this thread for saying this.

BUT - Dogs pawing in the wild is a submissive sign, Paw IMO is not a command, it's just a trick, hardly something that one would go to dog school to learn, encourages begging and is stupid thing to do in my eyes
End of on this subject from me
bye
Sue
xx


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think I have to say sorry to the create of this post Jasper, I had no right to say that you should not ask for 'paw' we all expect different things from our dogs, there is a genuine person here, being truthful and asking advise, I went in like a bull at a gate. SORRY
> regards
> Sue
> xxx
> No hard feelings I hope!!!!


I don't really see the need for apologies, I am sure the OP is interested in opinions, I just find it useful to give the reasons for our opinions.

I am interested to know why you do not think a dog should be taught 'paw' though?


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I have said I am sorry to the creator of this thread for saying this.
> 
> BUT - Dogs pawing in the wild is a submissive sign, Paw IMO is not a command, it's just a trick, hardly something that one would go to dog school to learn, encourages begging and is stupid thing to do in my eyes
> End of on this subject from me
> ...


oops! Sorry, cross post!

Command or trick it is irrelevant. Part of teaching any command is that you also teach the dog not to do it without being asked.

I personally do not teach my dogs to 'paw' because I don't see the need. My husband like to teach them 'paw' to ask for a treat, whereas I prefer them to sit or stand for a treat. They have never offered me their paw.

I also teach my dogs to jump up on command. However, they are not allowed to jump up without being given the command, and never do so, as they know to do it without the command is not rewarding.

For fun I also teach them to commando crawl, balance on their back legs like a meercat and sit up in the 'begging' position. All for fun and bonding. Again, they never do it without the behaviour being requested.


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

jackson said:


> oops! Sorry, cross post!
> 
> Command or trick it is irrelevant. Part of teaching any command is that you also teach the dog not to do it without being asked.
> 
> ...


You are very lucky that your dogs are so well trained, and for that I admire you greatly,

The was an incident locally to us ( a long time ago) where a little girl had almost lost her eye because a dog had caught her in the eye (offering it's paw) in the eye. Big dogs hurt when they paw you, and I don't think it is something that 'serious' trainers would 'really' want to teach, Do you?
regards
Sue


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You are very lucky that your dogs are so well trained, and for that I admire you greatly,
> 
> The was an incident locally to us ( a long time ago) where a little girl had almost lost her eye because a dog had caught her in the eye (offering it's paw) in the eye. Big dogs hurt when they paw you, and I don't think it is something that 'serious' trainers would 'really' want to teach, Do you?
> regards
> Sue


Its a commonly held myth that people with well trained dogs are lucky, it involves no luck at all unfortunately, just hard work, the harder you work, the luckier you get. jackson has well trained dogs because thats how she trains them.

As for giving paw its each to their own as you say Sue. as for whether serious dog trainers teach a dog to give a paw, some do, some don't, I suppose I would be classed as a serious dog trainer as I train and compete in competition, i don't train it, but for no other reason than I'm busy training other exercises.


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> Its a commonly held myth that people with well trained dogs are lucky, it involves no luck at all unfortunately, just hard work, the harder you work, the luckier you get. jackson has well trained dogs because thats how she trains them.
> 
> As for giving paw its each to their own as you say Sue. as for whether serious dog trainers teach a dog to give a paw, some do, some don't, I suppose I would be classed as a serious dog trainer as I train and compete in competition, i don't train it, but for no other reason than I'm busy training other exercises.


Opps Sorry - slip of the tongue, shouldn't have said 'lucky' what is you peoples problem!!! are you all so tunnelled you cannot accept opinions??? !!!!! I said to the poster I was sorry for being harsh,IS THAT NOT ENOUGH - is all you have to live for to drag things on! bring in the Mob, I really have niehter the time nor the need for this stupidity, I'm off to train my dogs! Goodbye, I've done on here you can stick your forum as far as you can!
xxxx


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm sorry i offended you in some way, enjoy training your dogs, I've just come in from training mine, because its so hot, never mind I'm sure I will be complaining its raining next week.


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> I'm sorry i offended you in some way, enjoy training your dogs, I've just come in from training mine, because its so hot, never mind I'm sure I will be complaining its raining next week.


It's not so much that you offended my Jenny, I guess it is generally the way people attack each other with jibbed sarcastic comments on here, I only joined the forum a few days ago, Dogs and training are my prime interest. In my opinion, I made a comment on this thread that I read afterwards and felt it was rather 'harsh' I consequently apolygised to the poster. In my opinion thats the end of it, why keep going on about it, and why people make sarcastic barbed comments is beyond me sarcasm is the lowest form of wit! I consider everything I have said in previous posts has been constructive, or compassinate. 
regards
DT

ps - I didn't go out in the day for the same reason you have just come it, because it was too hot, thats why I'm off out now, another difference of opinion - are we going to get sarcastic over that I wonder?


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sorry again Sue I wasn't aware I was being sarcastic, I was just stating my opinion, and agreeing with you over the paw thing, each to there own. Do you train your dogs to compete Sue or for general obedience ?


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

We just lost our best dog, Jenny, (11/3/08) she was Just 4 years old and was diagognose with AI in August 06 , we are heartbroken, The puppy we have now (7 month now) we shall be training for agility when she is around 15 months. We are currently playing at tracking with her, , we are doing 3 classes a week plus quite a bit of training here, but she is hard work, I know you cannot replace a dog with a dog but our hearts just don't seem to be in it any more. Our eldest dog has just turned 7years old, he had been so badly abused when we took him on, he suffers real bad fear aggression, he has come on, but will never be 100% sound.
regards
sue


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

So sorry you lost your dog, such a sad time, they give you so much, but then sadly leave a very large hole in your life.

I love tracking my dog, thats what I was out doing at about five, I'd laid the track at three, but she needed experience of tracking after a couple of hours of sun on it, good result though, she finished it fresh as a daisy, me on the other hand, puffing and blowing, red as a beetroot and ready for a lie down.

What breed of dogs do you own ?


----------



## JasperCarrot (Apr 22, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think I have to say sorry to the create of this post Jasper, I had no right to say that you should not ask for 'paw' we all expect different things from our dogs, there is a genuine person here, being truthful and asking advise, I went in like a bull at a gate. SORRY
> regards
> Sue
> xxx
> No hard feelings I hope!!!!


Nooo seriously I was just wondering if I should stop asking Jasper for paw because you said its a submissive thing  was just wondering - all I want is the best for Jas  

no hard fellings AT ALL  

Edit / Add :

Sue I really honestly didnt mean to sound horrible or anything ! aww I feel so bad .. I honestly just wanted to know if you thought it would be a good idea to stop asking Jas for paw ( he never does just randomly give me his paw i have to say paw and put my hand up for him as like a que ) , but I wouldnt like him to start pawing me and as you said wild dogs 'give' there paw as a sign off submission .

Im so sorry about your dog it awfull what happened .
good luck with your puppy though im sure she will do great in agility 
( Jasper is just mastering the weaving poles lol.. its hard work but with 2 full days of training he now does them but not on his own he follows your hand through .. not bad i dont think for 2 days if i may so so anyway lol  )

I really admire your posts and such just like your attitude and methods of training dogs and puppys .. anyway like I said I was just asking about the paw thing not criticizing or anything and I hate to think you thought thats the way I meant it .. Im sorry really am sorry


----------



## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> One thing I would have to disagree on on this one - 12 weeks imo is way too long for a pup to remain with the litter, the majority of weims I know on with problems have been due to 'unsufficient socializing (between the 8-12 week period' )usually solded cheeply by PF's between 12-16 weeks of age, don;'t imagine I am alone on this
> regards
> Sue


Hi Sue,

I do appreciate what you're saying. It has been the norm for a puppy to leave the litter at 7/8 weeks. However I now only work with Breeders who keep the puppy with the litter until at least 10/12 weeks.

A good breeder should have a structured socialization program, (which actually starts gradually at 3 weeks and builds up), so a puppy going to a new home at 10/12 weeks will already have had plenty of socialization and exposure to different stimuli.

Far from being sold cheaply I actually pay more to have the breeder start the socialization program, and also do some basic training. When Harley arrived in his new home he already new his name, and the requests 'sit', 'stay', 'come', and his heel work was just beginning.

Of course when I say he already new these requests I don't mean he did as I asked every time  this is something I have worked on and now he does listen, and does as asked first time.

There is now a new school of breeders realising that it is often in the best interest of the puppy to stay within the familiarity and stable environment of the litter during the 'Sensitive Phase' of development, which can be at any time from 7 to 9 weeks.

At this time, the most ordinary events may frighten the puppy and have a profound and possibly lasting effect on its personality. Breeders can minimize stress to the pups by keeping the litter together for another week or two and maintaining the familiar, stable environment.

The breeder must sensitively and systematically introduce different objects, people and situations. The pups will be less threatened and have a greater chance of coping with the new stimuli if their surroundings are familiar and comfortable during the critical fear period.

In addition at around 8 weeks interactions between litter-mates becomes more intense and serious in forming the hierarchy. What used to appear as playfulness over a toy now literally becomes tug-of-war and a serious challenge for social position. These interactions involve complex body language and vocalizations, and prepare the animal for future canine relationships.

Also a good breeder will request that a professional canine behaviourist perform an aptitude test around this time. This is not stressful for the pups, and it is the best way of trying to ensure that the right puppy goes to the right owner. i.e. It would not be good to give a very dominant dog to a first time dog owner.

Of course it is also desirable (distance permitting), that the new owner should visit the breeder during this time and spend one-on-one time with their intended puppy.

Today, through the work, writings and observations of a great many people interested in the welfare of canine companions, we know that the socialization period does not end at sixteen weeks. Socialization is an ongoing process that must continue throughout the dog's life to maintain a stable and suitable temperament.


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks for posting, have found this extremely interesting. Can I be nosey
are you in Cyprus??? And, Do you have weimaraners
regards
Sue


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2008)

JasperCarrot said:


> Nooo seriously I was just wondering if I should stop asking Jasper for paw because you said its a submissive thing  was just wondering - all I want is the best for Jas
> 
> no hard fellings AT ALL
> 
> ...


You are so nice, and no need to say sorry to me!! I just need to read what I have written before I press the send button!!!
It's an illness I have!!!! it's called impatience!

Love
Sue


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

dogpositivetraining said:


> Hi Sue,
> 
> I do appreciate what you're saying. It has been the norm for a puppy to leave the litter at 7/8 weeks. However I now only work with Breeders who keep the puppy with the litter until at least 10/12 weeks.
> 
> ...


Whilst I kind of agree with you, I do not think it is practical or sensible for breeders to keep pups until 12 weeks (unless toy breeds that need to for physical reasons). I kind of agree because the one pup I kept until 12 weeks (until her new owners got back from holiday) is the easiest of all her litter. However, I am not sure whether this is down to our experience compared to many first time owners, as opposed to the time spent with us, especially as she was on her own with us from 9 weeks. The pup that left us first, at 7 1/2 weeks, has 'caused' a few problems with over-exhuberant and innapropriate play biting, but again, I feel this is more down to the owners than anything else, despite the fact they have attended weekly or bi weekly training and socialisation classes with a good trainer since puppy was able.

I have a pup here I bought, collected at 10 weeks. (moving house, so couldn't collect at 8 weeks) She is now 5 months old and everyone comments on her excellent behaviour.

In large litters, there is no practical way a breeder can socialise a pup as well as it's new owners who can give the one pup their undivided attention. I always make sure that prior to pups leaving me at around 8 weeks, they are well used to their new owners (most visit 2-4 times a week) and that they have had plenty of time, in shortish periods, away from Mum and siblings. I also make sure they have been stood outside my children's school in my arms, been in the car several times, been to the vets, seen cats, horses cows and sheep, heard all the normal household sounds, heard fireworks, etc etc. They are also partially toilet trained whent hey leave. I do nto teach them commands (aside from the 12 week pup) as having discussed it with new owners, they prefer to do this themselves, which I accept. The pups do know their names though. I think considering the work rearing a large litter involves, if a breeder is expected to do any more than this, then the day to day care of the litter will suffer, especially as the pups get older and need more one to one care. I spend 24/7 with my litters and I found it hard to fit it all in.

i think the best thing is for new owners to be fully 'briefed' on how to best socialise their new puppy and how important it is.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

It just takes time for dogs to settle in.. And you can't just install it..

As for Weims and age they should leave litter. I advertised mine from 4 weeks for viewings and deposits to be left. I had someone come at 5 weeks.. And they wanted to take the puppy at 6 weeks.. I said I would only let them go from 8.. That wasn't good enough for them. So they went elsewhere.. My first puppy left at 8 weeks and I still have 1 pup left at 12 weeks... as I have gone on I have done my best to house train them.. and socialise them with our dogs. all house hold noises and two rowdy children.. I do not let the puppies jump up, and any commands tend to start with a clap to get the pups attention. I clap and say down, or clap and say no. The last pup I have for sale doesn't jump up. (I do expalin this to the new owners) The pup I am keeping has been sitting on command from 7 weeks and I shall now concentrate on training the little boy we have left for sale.

Its a pet hate of mine dogs jumping up.. 

I hope your puppies settle.. I am sure things will..


----------



## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

jackson said:


> Whilst I kind of agree with you, I do not think it is practical or sensible for breeders to keep pups until 12 weeks (unless toy breeds that need to for physical reasons). I kind of agree because the one pup I kept until 12 weeks (until her new owners got back from holiday) is the easiest of all her litter. However, I am not sure whether this is down to our experience compared to many first time owners, as opposed to the time spent with us, especially as she was on her own with us from 9 weeks. The pup that left us first, at 7 1/2 weeks, has 'caused' a few problems with over-exhuberant and innapropriate play biting, but again, I feel this is more down to the owners than anything else, despite the fact they have attended weekly or bi weekly training and socialisation classes with a good trainer since puppy was able.
> 
> I have a pup here I bought, collected at 10 weeks. (moving house, so couldn't collect at 8 weeks) She is now 5 months old and everyone comments on her excellent behaviour.
> 
> ...


Hi Jackson,

Thanks for your post.

My post was just a way of me sharing my experience on this particular issue.

In general I have found over the last few years puppies that have gone on to new owners at 10 to 12 weeks, develop in to confident, well-rounded adults, very sociable etc. The feedback I get from new owners who have previous experience with acquiring puppies at an earlier age, is that the puppies they pick up at 10/12 weeks seem to be more calm, adjust more readily to their new environment, more sociable with other dogs, very friendly with humans, and just seem better equipped to deal with the world 

Yes I agree wholeheartedly that this is a LOT of work for the breeder, but it is also a labour of love  for many, as well as being what they actually do full-time for a living.

Puppies go through the socialization process you mention, each puppy has daily one-on-one time with humans, - including the new owner(s) - as well as all the other socializing; household appliances, other animals, trips in the car, trips to the vet, traffic, pedestrians, shops, joggers, postman, cyclist, cats, children, etc. IT IS FULL ON 

Oh and just to clarify I'm talking about Breeders who keep all the litter until 10 to 12 weeks, so it's not like one puppy gets left behind. The Dam will be on holiday resting, but the other litter-mates will still be around.

And of course this is not cheap for the breeder, but they do pass the cost of these extra weeks and time on to the new owners, this doesn't seem to be an issue with the new owners.

And it goes without saying that socialization continues with the new owner and for the rest of the dogs life 

Oh and this is not relating to just Weims, its all dogs. I just happen to love Weims 

Angela


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

The problem with forums is when we write something and we may not be being malicious to the person you reply too, but it may read a different way to them..

Hence the other day when Double trouble Pulled me for my opinion and imo was quite rude with her reply.. but quite possibly not meant that way so I asked how did she mean what she said.. The best way is to ask what is meant rather that jumping on a persons personal opinion.. Yes freedom of speech and all that but honestly you all come on here because of the same reason.. You love your pets and want to talk about them..

edited to say..

And you all don't know everything.. but you can certainly help each other with your knowledge.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> The problem with forums is when we write something and we may not be being malicious to the person you reply too, but it may read a different way to them..
> 
> Hence the other day when Double trouble Pulled me for my opinion and imo was quite rude with her reply.. but quite possibly not meant that way so I asked how did she mean what she said.. The best way is to ask what is meant rather that jumping on a persons personal opinion.. Yes freedom of speech and all that but honestly you all come on here because of the same reason.. You love your pets and want to talk about them..
> 
> ...


You just about hit the nail on the head i'd say. Speaking for myself I am not by no means to to gain brownie points and become Miss Forum Popularity 2008, I am her solely to gain knowledge, experience and pick the brains of those wiser to enable me to both understand my dogs better and to therefore become a better owner. If I can make a few buddys on the way then thats a bonus. A big big problem with me is that I only seem to half read something, I then jump in with both feet, often with both guns blazing. I blame the forum set up - it should be fitted with a delay button

But you are so so right, as I have said before I do not like to think that I have or shall ever be disrepectful to another member.
regards
Sue


----------



## littlemisschelsey (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies. I haven't had internet for ages but finally got it running!

Molly is now 12 and a half weeks old and a very well behaved puppy. She sleeps in a crate at night with the other puppy and stays in from 10.30pm to 6am without complaint (although sometimes a little crying for the first 10 mins which is ignored).

I haven't been quite as consistent with her training as I should be (it's hard with the other four around) and up until yesterday she was coming 99.5/100 times when I shouted for her. She ignored me in the field yesterday and today and also ignored me in the back garden when I shouted her in so it's back to the flexi lead until she is 100% reliable. She sits everytime I ask and knows not to scrounge food so I can't really see that her being away early has left her with any problems. Housetraining is still not cracked (about 80% and I will often spend a good 10mins with her out in the garden or half an hour at the field and she will come in and empty her bowels as soon as we get in the house! Any tips? Peeing is not a problem as she always pees on command although today I forgot to go out at usual time and tell her to go(stupidly) and she came inside and peed in front of me even though the back door is open all the time. Guess I will just have to keep working on it.

Also, I'm struggling to teach her down as she is a mini dachshund when I drag a treat to the floor she can still reach it, have tried making a tunnel with my legs so she has to lie down but she just looks at me like i'm silly pulling the biscuit in there! Have tried gently pushing her down like I did with sit but it doesn't seem to be working!

Anything else I should be teaching her, just the basics really, I want her to sit, lie down and come on command.

Thanks


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

As a Daxi, she will almost certainly be a hinger, which means she will naturally hinge backwards to go into the down, hold the treat between your thumb and 1st finger (and don't let go of it), take it down slowly between her front legs moving it backward towards her chest, this will help to create the movement which is natural to her.


----------

