# aggresion in rehomed cocker spaniel



## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi all 
I'm hoping someone can help me. 2 weeks ago we got a 6 month old Cocker spaniel boy who had to be rehomed as he was not getting on well with the other dog in the house since being neutered (the other dog was a very nervous 3 yr old cocker spaniel boy).
from what we can tell there was very few rules and boundries in his previous home and he got away with pretty much anything. He seemed to settle in with us very well at first, He was happy to go into his crate at night even though he had never had one before and was very sweet and gentle with us although he did give gentle nips while playing but would stop if we told him no.
In the past 2 days however, he has started showing some signs of aggression towards us especially when out on walks. the first occasion was when he was trying to play with a plastic bag that was lying on the ground when i told him "no, leave it" and gave a light tug on his lead he gave a very nasty growl and began barking at me and biting at my feet and legs in a way that was definately not playful. I held him away from me as best i could and stood very still and he finally gave up. I had as very simillar incident tonight only he was even harder to hold back and we ended up walking most of the way home with him biting my skirt as i was unable to hold him back. 
I'm waiting to hear back from a local trainer who specialises in gun dog breeds but in the mean time I'm really strugling to walk him so any advise anyone has on how to stop the agressive behaviour would be greatly apperecited. 
thanks 
Sarah


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

Did the second incident occur because your dog wanted to grab something he found as well?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

presencefelt said:


> Hi all
> I'm hoping someone can help me. 2 weeks ago we got a 6 month old Cocker spaniel boy who had to be rehomed as he was not getting on well with the other dog in the house since being neutered (the other dog was a very nervous 3 yr old cocker spaniel boy).
> from what we can tell there was very few rules and boundries in his previous home and he got away with pretty much anything. He seemed to settle in with us very well at first, He was happy to go into his crate at night even though he had never had one before and was very sweet and gentle with us although he did give gentle nips while playing but would stop if we told him no.
> In the past 2 days however, he has started showing some signs of aggression towards us especially when out on walks. the first occasion was when he was trying to play with a plastic bag that was lying on the ground when i told him "no, leave it" and gave a light tug on his lead he gave a very nasty growl and began barking at me and biting at my feet and legs in a way that was definately not playful. I held him away from me as best i could and stood very still and he finally gave up. I had as very simillar incident tonight only he was even harder to hold back and we ended up walking most of the way home with him biting my skirt as i was unable to hold him back.
> ...


in lieu of more details first impression is defensive behaviour. He sounds like a troubled sensitive soul that's come to you with some emotional baggage and underlying stress and just cant handle the culture shock of your more direct full on approach?
might be an idea to slow the pace down a bit to help him adjust?
put the enthesis on bonding and stress relief as opposed to rules and boundaries? *(within reason of practicality, of course)
I have my own saying; train the emotion then train the dog
if me, if he wasnt swallowing the plastic bag, i probably would have let that one go and not make an issue out of it, or try and trade it for treats.
do you use treats in your training?
even a small tug on the lead, especially combined with a stern voice, might be enough to make him feel worried?

is he ok with you touching his body?
you could try some Ttouches.
and on the walk i would try some guided walking

lastly, have you or the previous owner checked with the vet to see if their are any medical problems? any pain?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

presencefelt said:


> Hi all
> I'm hoping someone can help me. 2 weeks ago we got a 6 month old Cocker spaniel boy who had to be rehomed as he was not getting on well with the other dog in the house since being neutered (the other dog was a very nervous 3 yr old cocker spaniel boy).
> from what we can tell there was very few rules and boundries in his previous home and he got away with pretty much anything. He seemed to settle in with us very well at first, He was happy to go into his crate at night even though he had never had one before and was very sweet and gentle with us although he did give gentle nips while playing but would stop if we told him no.
> In the past 2 days however, he has started showing some signs of aggression towards us especially when out on walks. the first occasion was when he was trying to play with a plastic bag that was lying on the ground when i told him "no, leave it" and gave a light tug on his lead he gave a very nasty growl and began barking at me and biting at my feet and legs in a way that was definately not playful. I held him away from me as best i could and stood very still and he finally gave up. I had as very simillar incident tonight only he was even harder to hold back and we ended up walking most of the way home with him biting my skirt as i was unable to hold him back.
> ...


Two week honeymoon period is over and now you are seeing the real dog.

If this was a private rehoming you may not have been given all the salient facts and the dog will not have been assessed by a qualified behaviourist to determine suitability for rehoming and to whom.

I would strongly suggest that you get a full check up by vet to rule out any underlying medical conditions and then a referral to a behaviourist.

Spaniels are notorious resource guarders and this could be the main issue (easily solved if time consuming) or one triggered by something else, we cannot really tell over the ether.

If you are hiring a dog trainer, be sure they actually have some relevant skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience which will suit your particular circumstances and that they know their limits re behaviour.

Good Luck


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## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

In the second incident he playing with another dog very exuberantly and the other dog was quite overwhelmed and a bit scared by him so I was pulling him away. He gets a lot of love and affection and cuddles from us aswell it's not all strict all the time and when he does something good we praise him very enthusiastically. He has been aggressive within the house too, with no provocation literally just walks up to you and starts growling barking and biting. I feel better able to deal with it in the house though as I can walk away from him until he's calmed down. I know he's still settling in but he needs to learn that he is not the boss right from the start.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

At 6 months old he could well be having puppy tantrums to be honest. I would be interested in what the trainer you have hired says. Not everybody has a great puppy experience, and at 6 months pups can still be nippy if they have the inclination. Kes used to be a bugger for throwing a wobbler and biting me, not hard to hurt but more than I would like. At 3/4 months old once I told her to leave some chips on the floor and a minute later she sunk her teeth into the back of my calf drawing blood  This didn't worry me due to her age, and she's grown into a dog who doesn't go out biting calves anymore  I know people with notoriously nippy breeds whose dogs will jump and bite their arms, their legs, all sorts, up until a year old even. So I would say don't panic just yet, see what the trainer thinks, it could just be he has no control over his impulses due to lack of ground rules in his previous home and therefore he's having toddler tantrums.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

presencefelt said:


> In the second incident he playing with another dog very exuberantly and the other dog was quite overwhelmed and a bit scared by him so I was pulling him away. He gets a lot of love and affection and cuddles from us aswell it's not all strict all the time and when he does something good we praise him very enthusiastically. He has been aggressive within the house too, with no provocation literally just walks up to you and starts growling barking and biting. I feel better able to deal with it in the house though as I can walk away from him until he's calmed down. I know he's still settling in but he needs to learn that he is not the boss right from the start.


Show him whose the boss or work out what makes your new dog tick ?


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## Emma P (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi 

It sounds a bit like Rage Syndrome to me. It's also known as Sudden Onset Aggression or (SOA) or Avalanche of Rage Syndrome, It's very rare but has been seen mostly in Cockers (but is not exclusive to that breed). There's a lot of info on it on Wikipedia. 
I've seen it before in a Cocker, also a rescue. There was very obviously something wrong with him. He would be fine and waggy giving kisses then all of a sudden his eyes would go glassy and he would start growling and snapping at anything and anyone very visiously. Then as suddenly as it started it would stop and he would be very sweet again. There is no warning other than the eyes so as soon as that look was noticed hands and faces were to be put nowhere near him. It can't be controlled with training because the dog doesn't really understand why he's doing it. But there is treatment available. Do his eyes kind of glaze over just before it happens? Research into it has shown that the dog showing the first symptoms of this are linked to the five critical learning periods identified in dogs. These occur at six weeks old, 12 weeks old, 24 weeks or six months, one year old and two years old.

It could be that it isn't this and I do hope it isn't but have a look on Wiki and see if any of it is familiar. 

Wishing you all the best with him!!


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Personally, I don't think the description given matches symptoms of rage.
but who knows?
Hopefully the OP will arrange a precautionary vet check 

also AFAIA I don't think their is any connection between sudden onset and dogs being rescues anyway , I think its just a breeding genetic issue 
(Sorry if you didn't mean this ?)


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Hi you have only had him two weeks :>

I would like to recomend that you keep him on a long line when out walking till you know his character better and that way he wont present a problem to other dogs. 


Whilst he stays on the long line you can take him to somewhere quiet with few distractions were you can teach him good recall and help him burn off some of his stress. 


I expect he probably has not been taught any boundries which is why he feels its ok to cross the line but as someone previously mentioned try to consentrate on bonding for now. Put yourself in his paws he has just been got rid of by his previous family and is in a strange new place so he will be experiencing stress and fear. 

Maybe teach him fetch first so you can redirect his mouth to something more appropriate to grab which he can bring with him on walks. 

Fetch is a good skill to learn it helps releive stress, teaches him to pick up appropriate items and helps with bonding.

I would also recomend looking at Kikopups training videos on youtube as they are very usefull.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Emma P said:


> Hi
> 
> It sounds a bit like *Rage Syndrome *to me. It's also known as Sudden Onset Aggression or (SOA) or Avalanche of Rage Syndrome, It's very rare but has been seen mostly in Cockers (but is not exclusive to that breed). There's a lot of info on it on Wikipedia.
> I've seen it before in a Cocker, also a rescue. There was very obviously something wrong with him. He would be fine and waggy giving kisses then all of a sudden his eyes would go glassy and he would start growling and snapping at anything and anyone very visiously. Then as suddenly as it started it would stop and he would be very sweet again. There is no warning other than the eyes so as soon as that look was noticed hands and faces were to be put nowhere near him. It can't be controlled with training because the dog doesn't really understand why he's doing it. But there is treatment available. Do his eyes kind of glaze over just before it happens? Research into it has shown that the dog showing the first symptoms of this are linked to the five critical learning periods identified in dogs. These occur at six weeks old, 12 weeks old, 24 weeks or six months, one year old and two years old.
> ...


Probably not indeed!! Just because the dog is a cocker and showing signs of aggression does not make it rage syndrome. This condition has been found in other breeds and not just associated with cocker spaniels. Its very rare and highly unlikely.


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## Emma P (Sep 21, 2013)

I own a Cocker so I'm definitely NOT trying to make out they're all horrible. In fact I have to defend them a lot of the time from people making out they're just pains in the arses. They certainly are not. They're amazing. The person writing if for help needed suggestions and I was just telling of one of my experiences. The rage thing is obviously extreme but I just wanted to put it out there so she could rule it out if her pup didn't match the symptoms. Oh and I wrote that it wasn't JUST Cockers that suffer from this.


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## Emma P (Sep 21, 2013)

Oh and Tails and Trails I didn't mean to put an emphasis on any link between rescue dogs and this syndrome  just saying that the other dog who was diagnosed with Rage Syndrome was a rescue too. Didn't mean anything else by it. Certainly wouldn't paint rescue dogs in a bad light


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Emma P said:


> Oh and Tails and Trails I didn't mean to put an emphasis on any link between rescue dogs and this syndrome  just saying that the other dog who was diagnosed with Rage Syndrome was a rescue too. Didn't mean anything else by it. Certainly wouldn't paint rescue dogs in a bad light


Oh no I didn't think that just wondered if you thought the stresss or suchlike of being from arescue would trigger something like rage.
which if you think about if is not such an unreasonable notion as we know stress can trigger man illnesses

but could see your sentence could read both ways ....no worries


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Emma P said:


> I own a Cocker so I'm definitely NOT trying to make out they're all horrible. In fact I have to defend them a lot of the time from people making out they're just pains in the arses. They certainly are not. They're amazing. The person writing if for help needed suggestions and I was just telling of one of my experiences. The rage thing is obviously extreme but I just wanted to put it out there so she could rule it out if her pup didn't match the symptoms.


Please bare in mind the time frame the OP has only had the dog two weeks and the dog has come from a previous home were boundries were probably not taught. It is more likely the problems are caused by stress and fear which is common in rescues.

Unless your an expert and a highly qualified trainer I really would not mention Rage Syndrome.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

It doesnt sound like aggression it sounds like frustration.

You have a young dog who has had very little guidance in his previous home, and now you are expecting it to understand that you mean it no harm when you tug on its neck, dogs dont come ready programmed and they dont understand what we want of them you need to educate them in a kind and positive way. 

Rather than a dog who is trying to tell you it is 'boss'  it sounds like a young dog with no impulse control who is having puppy tantrums. As Tails and Trails has hinted you need to find a way to help the dog understand how to behave, tugging and holding it back will just frustrate it.

Do you have any dog training books/experience. Apart from tugging on its lead do you have any other methods of redirecting/distracting it. Be very careful that the gundog trainer uses positive methods only or you could end up making this dog much worse in the long run.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Probably not indeed!! Just because the dog is a cocker and showing signs of aggression does not make it rage syndrome. This condition has been found in other breeds and not just associated with cocker spaniels. Its very rare and highly unlikely.


it may not be rage syndrome; its just something to be aware of, perhaps a vet behavourist will be able to test him for it?


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## Emma P (Sep 21, 2013)

Tails and trails, you're right it could be read both ways. Apologies for that to the writer of this thread  I'm very very sure that this is just a case of needing time to settle in for your new pup. He's had a hard time and now he's in a lovely home he'll find his feet. 
Prowl, please don't tell me what I can and can't write on an open forum. I was trying to help this person and as far as I can see it wasn't you who started this thread. And I don't expect a reply from you about what I have just written because this is about helping this person, not a disagreement between me and you. Also, you don't know what experience I have with dogs 
I appreciate your opinions obviously, you have made great points. I seem to have annoyed you and I'm sorry.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Prowl said:


> Please bare in mind the time frame the OP has only had the dog two weeks and the dog has come from a previous home were boundries were probably not taught. It is more likely the problems are caused by stress and fear which is common in rescues.
> 
> Unless your an expert and a highly qualified trainer I really would not mention Rage Syndrome.


Id be more inclined to say vet - but in any case you don't really need to be either to bring the topic up. Emma was only relaying information, not a diagnosis


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Id be more inclined to say vet - but in any case you don't really need to be either to bring the topic up. Emma was only relaying information, not a diagnosis


It just gets my goat when someone mentions it. I expect the OP is probably all ready aware of the condition if they did their research on cocker spaniels before getting one as information is mentioned about it on the breed club website.

Forgot about vets


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## Emma P (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks tails and trails  that's a good point! I don't need to be a vet or well established dog trainer to bring up RS. I don't imagine those two kinds of people have the time to go on forums. It does happen and yes it is very unlikely (should have stressed that more in my first post) but I have seen it happen in a Cocker before. I also wasn't being negative about Cockers by linking that certain breed to RS, the research has done that. It's genetic not environmental.
Prowl, why should I not mention it?? There is a likelyhood that they researched Cockers and know about it but also there is a chance they don't know about it which would explain why they are on this forum. It's not actually something that is always documented in the Cocker books and on their info pages because it's so rare.

Again, I'm sorry that I annoyed you Prowl. I never meant to. But ignoring a topic because of it's unlikelyhood or seriousness is not the right thing to do.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Prowl said:


> It just gets my goat when someone mentions it. I expect the OP is probably all ready aware of the condition if they did their research on cocker spaniels before getting one as information is mentioned about it on the breed club website.
> 
> Forgot about vets


Oh dear, we can't mention rage syndrome because the OP may have already heard about it


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## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for all of the advice and opinions guys. 
Ive done a bit of reading on rage and I'm 99% sure it's not that. (I guess I can only be 100% after seeing a vet. 
We're working on a lot of training in the house (in small doses) - things like fetch, sit, stay, give a paw and come he's showing great progress with these and loves all of the praise he gets for doing thing right (we never punish him for not getting it right we just try again)
When we're out on walks we work on 'heel' and 'come' we have an extender lead which gives him a chance to run and play with other dogs and he usually plays nicely. We can not let him off the lead as he will not yet come when called. 
I've read a lot of information on dog training, books and websites/articles, but they all seem to contradict each other. And as for giving a tug on his lead, there's really no other way I can get his attention or make him stop doing something as he won't respond to his name or a command when he is focused on something else. I know he can be a good dog it's just very difficult to know what to do for the best when he is biting me on the street and I'm unable to walk away from him. 
Oh and the gun dog trainer uses positive reinforcement to train and comes highly recommended


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

presencefelt said:


> Thanks for all of the advice and opinions guys.
> Ive done a bit of reading on rage and I'm 99% sure it's not that. (I guess I can only be 100% after seeing a vet.
> We're working on a lot of training in the house (in small doses) - things like fetch, sit, stay, give a paw and come he's showing great progress with these and loves all of the praise he gets for doing thing right (we never punish him for not getting it right we just try again)
> When we're out on walks we work on 'heel' and 'come' we have an extender lead which gives him a chance to run and play with other dogs and he usually plays nicely. We can not let him off the lead as he will not yet come when called.
> ...


Very short term solution, but what about taking a toy for him to chomp on, so that he's not chomping on you during walks? Something like a tug toy, tennis ball or kong safe-stick? Some dogs will calm down a lot if you give them something to carry whilst they're being walked. Also with a tug toy, you can still walk home even if they're dangling from it  . With tug toys and safe-sticks you can also coat them in something yummy (liver paste, peanut butter) so that the dog really wants to hang on to it, instead of you.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

presencefelt said:


> Thanks for all of the advice and opinions guys.
> Ive done a bit of reading on rage and I'm 99% sure it's not that. (I guess I can only be 100% after seeing a vet.
> We're working on a lot of training in the house (in small doses) - things like fetch, sit, stay, give a paw and come he's showing great progress with these and loves all of the praise he gets for doing thing right (we never punish him for not getting it right we just try again)
> When we're out on walks we work on 'heel' and 'come' we have an extender lead which gives him a chance to run and play with other dogs and he usually plays nicely. We can not let him off the lead as he will not yet come when called.
> ...


Have you tried distracting him with a toy or treat getting right down there and almost luring him away? As others have said a toy might be a good idea a rope tug toy for instance then if he does get frustrated and bitey he can bite on that.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

I have a six month springer/poodle cross. He went through a phase of getting overwhelmed/overexcited on walks. It would happen when there was too much stimulation (other dogs/strong wind/sheep) or when he got frustrated when we stopped him from doing something he wanted. He would start jumping, nipping and sometimes growling. It was like he lost control of himself. His behaviour was witnessed by a behaviouralist and they felt it was over arousal or everything just being "too much" for him. I'm not sure if your dog has the same thing but it sounds a possibility.

When our dog got like this he basically needed chance to calm down and regain control of himself. We found taking him to one side bad getting him to perform some obedience cues he was confident with helped (sit/down/paw). If all else failed we would stand on his lead so he didn't have enough lead to jump up and wait for him to settle then praise the calmness. We found we could predict when he was likely to get over aroused and pre-empt this behaviour by doing a food scatter (dropping smelly treats on the ground and getting the dog to sniff them out - apparently very calming for them) or by throwing his ball for him before he jumped up. He seems to have outgrown this behaviour in the last few weeks touch wood...........


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## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

We've had 4 aggression free walks since I first posted this. However he's starting to get more aggressive in the house. It does seem to be after he's been playing but I'm really struggling to calm him down. He's getting himself over excited when he's playing with his toys but then he'll stop with the toys and start barking and biting at me. I've tried talking calmly to him, I've tried looking away and ignoring him and I've tried sternly telling him no and none of these responses works. One "episode" this morning lasted almost half an hour. I'm really struggling to know how to calm him.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Do you do any sort of impulse control work with him? How are you playing with him? If you're playing games that get him all worked up and excited then I would stop those for the time being and concentrate on brain games that teach him some self control. If this is also happening when he plays by himself I'd be interrupting his play before it gets that far. Not in a nasty way, I'd do it by distracting him with a handful of treats scattered around and pick up the toys or offering a walk and while you're out (even if it's just to the top of the street and back) having your OH pick up his toys or something.

Has he had a thorough vet check? If not then that would be my first step. If nothing comes up then I'd ask for a referral to a behaviourist and get someone in who can actually see what is going on and advise from there.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2014)

Hi presencefelt 
Just wanted to second (third?) the recommendation for a thorough vet check and referral to a qualified behaviorist. There are a lot of possibilities here, resource guarding, impulsiveness, frustration, or any and every combinations of the above.

But really, without seeing the dog in person, we can make educated guesses (some more educated than others LOL), but we cant really diagnose your dog off a few internet posts or give behavior protocol to move forward other than to suggest enlisting the help of a professional. 

There are some great folks on here who can recommend trainers/behaviorists. Where are you located? Perhaps someone could suggest a professional in your area?


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2014)

Prowl said:


> Unless your an expert and a highly qualified trainer I really would not mention Rage Syndrome.


Why? Rage Syndrome, while rare, does exist.  Why should only highly qualified trainers or experts be allowed to mention it? What makes a trainer qualified enough to mention rage?

No, this case doesnt sound like rage at all to me. The owner seems to be able to predict the incidents, so that in itself would eliminate it as a possibility, but there are indeed aggression issues that stem from brain abnormalities, either rage or forms of epilepsy or seizures, or even tumors... Its not a judgement call, its simply being aware of what exists out there.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Oh, and I have to say this does not sound like rage syndrome to me from what you post. Obviously though as I'm not a vet and haven't seen the dog I can't say for sure and I do think that a vet check and a reputable professional coming in to help you would be the best bet. If nothing else it would put your mind at rest and give you methods to handle the situation when he does lose control. 

To me it sounds like it could be frustration, lack of self control, perhaps a little resource guarding thrown in. Not uncommon problems in a young dog. But without seeing the dog it's impossible to say for sure.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

presencefelt said:


> Thanks for all of the advice and opinions guys.
> Ive done a bit of reading on rage and I'm 99% sure it's not that. (I guess I can only be 100% after seeing a vet.
> We're working on a lot of training in the house (in small doses) - things like fetch, sit, stay, give a paw and come he's showing great progress with these and loves all of the praise he gets for doing thing right (we never punish him for not getting it right we just try again)
> When we're out on walks we work on 'heel' and 'come' we have an extender lead which gives him a chance to run and play with other dogs and he usually plays nicely. We can not let him off the lead as he will not yet come when called.
> ...


Hi again prescence

After reading this post, I feel even stronger about my initial instincts.
It will be interesting what your trainer comes up with, can you please come back and let us know?
And there are some good takes on your problem here.
But I still cant but help think its a case of my motto of train the emotion, then train the dog.
I feel you have only had him couple weeks, and with several obedience exercises already undertaken, I wonder if you had allowed for simply you and your dog getting to know each other, bonding, settling in to the new environment, your dog just being a dog,etc? If you think it from his POV, you say he came from a home where their was conflict with another dog, and now he is essentially with strangers, so he must feel a sense of unease and feeling unsettled at some level? Im from a rescue background, and also tend to come at things from a cognitive/emotional approach first. If it were me, I would scale back all the obedience training for now, aside from what is absolutely necessary from a daily practical POV (which for most people is usually a sit around food and dont pull me on lead - which isnt the same as 'heelwork' by the way).
Maybe, just maybe, your new dog, or really, your new member of your family, needs time to adjust and come down to some sort of baseline? 
If it were me, I would mainly spend next couple weeks letting him to come to me in the home, find his own spot for a time out, just wonder round the house just chatting to him, be quite laid back about it all. Also, at the moment everything does seems like is built around a work ethic?. So maybe, instead of walks meaning heelwork followed by recall practice, just makes the walks about a nice relaxing stroll to somewhere out the way with little distractions. What I do I call guided walking, where I use a harness along with a collar (or head collar). Double ended lead clipped to both and guide and steer him as you would using reins on a horse. Slow walks, nothing predictable, slow steps, chat to him quitely, swerves, angles , change directions, using streets furniture as part of the walk. For example weaving round (not weaving as in agility) around lines of posts, walking up/along fallen tree trunks, up and down ditches, getting him to jump up onto and walk along brick walls, etc, etc. Use your imagination, find a good place to do this. You can even set up courses in your garden, using chicken wire on the ground etc. (Look up Ttouch courses online). Some actual Ttouches themselves wouldnt hurt either. What this is all about is slow the body, slow the mind, so as to increase cognition and take dog away from acting in a mechanical reactive way. These exercises encourage your dog to actively think when, how, and why it places and positions parts of its own body, whereas at the moment your dog doesn't think, he just launches parts of his body, thus has low awareness of his body. You could do all this and end it with a good blow out on his long line, maybe with a good bit of tug war on a toy to channel that grabbing of your legs and stick etc into more productive avenues?


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## Scabbers (Jul 26, 2013)

If he has got a resource guarding issue then wont using toys as a distraction maby provoke him into reacting?

I am genuinely asking too


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Scabbers said:


> If he's got a resource guarding issue, won't using toys as a distraction maybe provoke him into reacting?


a tug-toy that's long-enuf to put his teeth / jaws safely away from Ur own hand should be fine -
after all, he can't TUG without a partner. Solo, he can lie-down & chew it, or stand / walk & carry it.

teaching him a default DROP when Ur arm goes deadweight is both simple & effective as a built-in
safety measure: when he begins to get too manic, go deadweight, he drops the toy; INSTANTLY
offer it again to resume the game, AND add warm sincere praise -AS- U offer it.
.
.


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## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks guys. You've all given me a lot to think about, I'm so conscious if the fact that he's still adjusting to his new life and that everything is really different but it's very hard to deal with the biting (my legs at covers in dog jaw shaped bruises) We're at the vets tomorrow afternoon. I'll report back afterwards.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

presencefelt said:


> ... it's very hard to deal with the biting (my legs [are covered] in dog-jaw shaped bruises). ...


Suggestion:
when he gets over-aroused & appears ready to begin biting, use a power-pole to keep him at a safe
distance & under control.

A power-pole is easy to make & inexpensive.
U need at least a 3.5-ft long dowel, & a slightly-longer PVC pipe of a diameter to slip the dowel into.
For instance, a 3.5-ft long dowel & a 4-ft long section of PVC pipe to cover the dowel - be sure that
the DIAMETER is comfortable for Ur hands: men can usually hold a larger pipe comfortably,
women or kids need skinnier diameters so that they can grasp them securely.

Insert the dowel in the PVC-pipe, drill thru it, insert a thin bike-cable in the drilled holes thru BOTH
the dowel AND the pipe, on the "dog" end. On the human-end, insert a loop of tough climbing-rope,
marine rope, or any other sturdy rope that's unlikely to ROT - U don't want cotton. Make it a length
that is easy to grasp, sliding it over the wrist & then holding the pole BENEATH the loop - 
if U loose Ur grip, the loop is the safety-cord to grab before the dog takes off. 

On the dog-end, slip a spring-clip onto the bike-cable & use a U-clamp to secure both ends
of the bike-cable, overlapping side by side in the U-clamp. Tighten the nuts with a wrench,
not with fingers only.
The loop of bike-cable only needs to be long-enuf to easily swivel over the pole-end & back again - 
without catching. Don't make it long & loose - it should be slightly stiff, & make a hoop shape.

U can also use a second bike-cable loop, & another double-ended spring clip to secure a 6-ft leash
or a long-line, with the control-pole as the final segment before the dog's collar or harness.

The dowel & PVC pipe isn't very heavy, & can be lifted so that the dog can't climb up it or lunge past it
to bite the handler. It should NOT BE USED with any headcollar of any design, ever - it's too heavy!
But it works very well with limited-slip martingales, front-clip H-harnesses, flat AKA buckle-collars,
or side-clipped H-harnesses that clip on the dog's shoulder-point.

Forget using the power-pole on any harness AT THE BACK of the ribs, or ABOVE the shoulders;
it's useless there. U will not be able to control the dog properly, & s/he can still lunge under the pole
& bite the handler, or other persons / dogs / etc.
.
.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

When my puppy gets overaroused (used to be a frequent problem, fingers crossed improving now) I found that a time out helped. Personally I find it easier to just step out of the room myself for a couple of minutes. This way I didn't have to manhandle him in anyway (previously we had been putting him out but he got wary of being picked up or having his collar touched which lead on to other problems).

A baby gate made life easier too - you can just step the other side and he can still see you but not get at you. Then wait for him to calm down before going back in. If he gets riled up straightway then step out again. I got one that doesn't need any permanent fixings from eBay for a few quid. 

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but a house line helps too. It's a lead you let him trail indoors. If he's getting into mischief you can use it to lead him away. It's less confrontational than actually touching him directly.

I've no experience of rescue dogs but I would imagine you need to be careful that your relationship is very much positive especially in the initial stages. When the dog is in that over aroused state it's very easy to get into a cycle of misbehaviour, correction, frustration, worsening behaviour and so on. I know first hand that highly strung dogs (my spaniel is definitely one) can see all sorts of things as threatening when that really isn't our intention (touching his collar, leaning over him, picking him up to remove him from a situation). Our pup became very hand shy as a result of us failing to recognise initially that he was feeling threatened (we had interpreted him "dancing" out if the way as play/mischief) and it's taken us a good while and some hard work to get his confidence up. I'd love to "do over" but still working on that time machine.......


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Sarahliz100 said:


> When my puppy gets overaroused (used to be a frequent problem, fingers crossed improving now) I found that a time out helped. Personally I find it easier to just step out of the room myself for a couple of minutes. This way I didn't have to manhandle him in anyway (previously we had been putting him out but he got wary of being picked up or having his collar touched which lead on to other problems).
> 
> A baby gate made life easier too - you can just step the other side and he can still see you but not get at you. Then wait for him to calm down before going back in. If he gets riled up straightway then step out again. I got one that doesn't need any permanent fixings from eBay for a few quid.
> 
> ...


Brilliant advice


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## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks sarahliz100. I'm getting much better at recognising when he's going to go bonkers at me so I'll certainly try stepping out of the room see if he calms down. Did you ever have the problem of him getting that way outside of the house?


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Yes, and as you said in your original post it is harder to deal with out if the house. If he's not too worked up we found taking him to one side and practicing some obedience cues he is confident with (sit/down) and then rewarding often calmed him down. If he is too worked up he can't focus though. In that case standing still and ignoring (sometimes I stood on his lead so he couldn't jump up, or tried to hold the lead away from me) until he settled eventually worked. It's not nice gritting your teeth as your legs get nipped though....... Lots of praise when eventually calm, always have treats with you. Once he's calm try and be very unexciting for a few minutes so he doesn't ramp right up again (maybe just stand still or walk very slowly and just let him sniff around).

If you can learn to recognise what will send him into a frenzy of excitement (with us it's a dog he's afraid of, or has been playing with or wants to play with, or sheep/cows/horses) then you can try to pre-empt which is much better. If I feel he's getting over the top (particularly when I see him haring back at me with a mad glint in his eye) I'll throw his ball then he gets diverted into chasing that instead. Our dog loves to search for his ball in long grass or reeds and focusing on his search often calms him. 

Another good tip from our behaviouralist was to use "food scatters" - scatter tasty treats around in the grass and let him hunt them out. Supposedly a very calming activity. If I do this after a stressful encounter (for example immediately after a horse/cyclist/bouncy dog has gone past) then it will generally stop him from starting the jumping/nipping.

Also try to keep his walks as low key as possible initially - can you walk him somewhere quiet or at less busy times so there are fewer things to send him into a frenzy? When he (and you) are more confident you can then start going to busier places. Having fewer people around saves the embarrassment of people staring whilst you appear to be being mauled by your dig too..... If he's repeatedly getting in a state maybe keep walks pretty short initially.

Our vet referred us to a veterinary behaviouralist. It has been great, they have been really thorough and I understand our pup so much better now. They give us ongoing support through phone/email/ongoing visits so when new issues crop up we can just get back in contact with them. Everything is tailored to our dog and they are great at trouble shooting and coming up with a practical solution that will work for us. If your problems persist it might be worth doing this. Our insurance (pet plan) has covered all the behavioural stuff, so it's actually cost us very little. If you happen to live in the north west I can let you know who we've been seeing.

It's horrible when it seems like your puppy (who I'm sure you have high hopes for) is turning into a monster. There was a period when things seemed to be spiralling out of control and I really thought we would end up with a horribly aggressive dog we couldn't take anywhere (or god forbid attacked someone and got put down). But 2 months down the line (he's now 6 months) he is unrecognisable from the stressed out little chap he was, he's mostly a pleasure to be around and I'm confident he will turn into a lovely companion. Take heart!


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## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

It's so nice to hear I'm not the only one! I'm not in the north west (I'm north east) but I'm seeing a vet this afternoon so hopefully he'll be able to point me in the right direction of a behaviourist in the area. 
I know he can be a good dog. He can be so sweet and loving when he's in a good mood I just need to learn how to keep him in a good mood (I really believe that most dogs are good dogs some are just trained badly - so it's me that needs the training)


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm sure it'll all work out, sounds like he's found a good owner .


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

presencefelt said:


> ... I'm seeing a vet this afternoon... hopefully he'll be able to point me [to] *a behaviourist in the area. *
> ...


I'd like to stress that any referral should be to a *credentialed* behaviorist, preferably,
given the intensity of the dog's arousal / snapping, which is well-past the norm, to a VET-behaviorist.

Many vets will simply refer to a local trainer they know well, & whose methods they may not know,
may approve but are either outdated or harsh, or are downright ignorant about - since DVMs are not
taught about behavior, they aren't good resources.

Vets have one over-riding concern for patient behavior: HOLD STILL. That's it; let me manipulate,
jab, draw blood, take cheek-swabs, peer in Ur eyes & ears, handle painful places, & DON'T give me
a hard time about it, dammit. That's all they want & need: compliance. They'll get it anyway they can.

Vets often ADD stress to exams, unnecessarily, by looming over, sudden grabs, making no attempt
to introduce themselves to the animal, etc. They only have X-hrs in the day; some forget that just like ppl,
nonhuman patients are more co-operative with a doctor they trust.

A good, experienced APDT-uk member who's knowledgeable about excitable dogs who have poor
self-control would be a better option than a hard-handed trainer who thinks the dog is "defiant".

An APBC or COAPE member would be good, too - but a vet-behaviorist who is licensed to Rx meds
is the gold standard for serious behavior-issues. One visit to a vet-behaviorist might be more
costly, but more effective, than 6 or 8-weeks of inapropos B-Mod from a supposed 'behaviorist'
who's actually self-nominated & has no credentials.

Choose carefully, & observe the person if possible before the appointment - if it's a trainer, rather than
a vet-behaviorist. A DVM who's board-certified in behavior must be a referral by one's vet - but IME,
they are worth every penny. A real diagnosis & practical protocol save huge amounts of wasted time. :thumbup1:

Best of luck - please let us know what the recommendation is by the vet, & the outcome? :yesnod:
.
.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Prowl said:


> It just gets my goat when someone mentions it. I expect the OP is probably all ready aware of the condition if they did their research on cocker spaniels before getting one as information is mentioned about it on the breed club website.
> 
> Forgot about vets


Why does it "Get your goat" if anyone mentions Rage Syndrome? It seems to me it was mentioned, amongst other things, as a possibility, not a diagnosis.

If someone posts with a dog showing symptoms of parvo and someone mentions the disease, will that Get your Goat too?

It does sound to me as though the little dog is becoming over excited or frustrated, or even a combination of both. I agree with the excellent advice already given and think that a good Behaviourist will be able to set out the best way to go forward.


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## presencefelt (Jan 9, 2014)

Right so the vet said health wise my boy is perfect and as for his behaviour she doesn't feel we need a behaviourist just yet. actually in the past couple of days he's been a biting a little less we had a couple of incidents when we were out but I was able to distract him with a loud noise which took his attention away from me, I then stopped still for a little while and when we carried on again he seemed to have forgotten about chewing my leg off. In the house we've started leaving the room if he goes for us he'll then immediately sit behind the door and cry for us to come back, once the crying stops we come back into the room and give him a little attention.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

presencefelt said:


> Right so the vet said health wise my boy is perfect and as for his behaviour she doesn't feel we need a behaviourist just yet. actually in the past couple of days he's been a biting a little less we had a couple of incidents when we were out but I was able to distract him with a loud noise which took his attention away from me, I then stopped still for a little while and when we carried on again he seemed to have forgotten about chewing my leg off. In the house we've started leaving the room if he goes for us he'll then immediately sit behind the door and cry for us to come back, once the crying stops we come back into the room and give him a little attention.


Thats a really good plan regarding leaving the room and its satisfying for you to see results

I didnt really understand the sentence about the loud noise, sorry

Will you be giving the gundog trainer a miss?
Just as a general observation, but no comment on your individual vet, as I dont know anything about him, but did you know that vets, generally speaking, dont have qualifications in animal behaviour.?
This is because during their 7 year degree this is not covered in the syllabus.
However, some do got on to do a masters in this area, or gain knowledge in other ways.
And obviously, as its not what they do for a living, they tend to not have practical experience.

Not saying your vets assessment is wrong, and Im sure you have your own instincts anyway, just putting that out there


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## Emma P (Sep 21, 2013)

That all sounds really positive and I'm glad you're seeing improvements in his biting. Just one thing though, kind of the same as what Tails and Trails wrote, if one of my dogs was biting me I would need to know why, whether I'd had them 2 weeks or 2 years. It might just take a phone call to a behaviourist who is happy to talk over the phone (some aren't willing to disclose info without money changing hands first!) Vets are great for medical problems but behaviour doesn't fall into that category so some of them are a bit dismissive. I'd be a bit worried that not getting to the root of the problem may mean the biting will subside but then reappear some day down the line. 

I must say though it's great you've taken on this pup and are really working hard to help him. I see so many dogs with problems go to people who can't be bothered to make the effort for them and they return to the kennels within weeks.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Hello, I've just been reading through the post and an awful lot of what you described sounded like my dog when we first got her. What other people called zoomies became rather aggressive in Molly - she'd start to race about and then start to snap, bark and corner one of us. We were told to take her back to the rescue, she was the proverbial when she was 'good she was very very good' and when she was 'bad she was horrid'! We got in a behaviourist and for Molly it was simply over arousal and no off button. At 10 months we suspect she had a very short time in a house with no boundaries like yours. I would honestly go so far as to say that without this qualified professional we'd have given up on Molly as we were utterly lost. Our vet didn't do much either way apart from say our dog was fine so if you need that extra help push for it, it can only benefit you both.

We found that time out helped with controlled amounts of play as did yelling 'ouch'! As I've got to know her, I can predict her 'tipping point' so we'd do all our games around impulse control. Tuggies with a good drop and play command. During play I would make her wait and put her into a down. Look at me and just keep it all light and easily for her to succeed. On walks she was lead reactive both due to behaviour and an incident. We generally, having applied the techniques that Grisha Stewart talks about for lead work in her BAT work, don't allow Molly to meet dogs on lead. We can't predict the other dog's reaction and it could set her up to fail and it is not necessary for her. We did loads of clicks for looking at dogs from a distance and not reacting, decreasing the distance and practising loose lead walking in quiet places. She's luckily always been great off lead and so willing to train.

For us positive training with the clicker so we could mark her successes, impulse control work, getting recall sorted out so she could socialise with dogs and working a lot with a professional behaviourist was the key. Being the 'boss' didn't, she's a dog not a UKIP candidate.

We've had her since April 2012 and we can now get her to 'wait' in a zoomie and she'll happily drop and give during play. What you do now does sink in despite the teenager times even if it feels like it doesn't.


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