# Pre-Trained Dogs?



## Montelimar (Feb 16, 2011)

Anyone know anything about buying a dog that has already been trained? Is there such a thing as a company that specialises in training dogs before homing them?

I've seen this website for a place in Wales that does this (here), more with a mind to selling guard dogs, but they've also got family dogs that have been taught obedience. You get a dog that's already been trained. of course, you should be training your dog throughout its life - not sayin owners should just buy a dog thinking they won't have to do anything with it, but if dog's training is solid, it's going to have a happier life with its humans surely + everyone wins??


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The few that are obdience trained for family pets seem to be ones that didnt make the grade as personal protection dogs. I know there are companies that will take your dog and train it for you on a residential basis without the owner needing to be present Ive seen a few of those advertised. Personally I wouldnt be interested in buying a pre trained dog. I have had older rescue dogs but dont think I would go out and purchase a pre trained dog just for convienience though.

I do think it would be a good idea if rescues did try to pre-train dogs and solve some of their behavioural problems though, I think that would be a good idea to help re-home more dogs. I know some do to a degree and do the best they can with limited time and resources.


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## springer-lucy (Jan 29, 2011)

Where's the fun in that? :lol:

Personally I wouldn't get a trained dog, simply because I find the training so rewarding. 

Seeing Lucy thrive on achieving all the little goals, seeing how happy it makes us and spending all that time together doing it is what has bonded us from day 1. 

It is hard work at times but the experience is too rewarding to miss out on!


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

I would think there is very little sense of satisfaction in buying a pre trained dog , also you bond with your dog as you are doing the training and learn a lot together , :yesnod: not for me a ready trained dog .


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Not something I would want but I know it is common for working dogs to go away to be trained.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Personally I have soooo many problems with this.

You have no idea what you are getting, you have no idea what will have been done to the dog in the name of training, dogs don't generalise well and as such re-training will be needed, surely the part of training the dog yourself is about developing a relationship and teaching him/her how to behave in your world, raises expectations even more than usual - dog is bound to fall from this pedestal by acting like a dog at some stage .... I could go on


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

It would worry me what methods had been used to get a quick turnover of dogs


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

The dog's training might be solid when it is purchased but unless the new owner had also undergone extensive training it would all go horribly wrong very quickly.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I agree with all the answers so far. I enjoy training, it helps build a bond with the dog, and I want to train my way - without worrynig about what methods might have been used, or even what problems the dog may have developed.

One thing that springs to mind was an issue that came up on one of the courses I went on....
A group of animals had been trained to perform a simple task (in this case it was monkeys trained to present their rears to be swabbed!). 

When a new person came in they were told exactly how the training had been carried out and what the cue was to get the monkeys to perform. It didn't work. 

Watching the video footage it was clear why - although the original trainers all used the pre-agreed verbal cue, they also used a very slight unintentional hand signal. None of them had even realised they were doing it, yet this turned out to be the cue the monkeys were following. The newbie - with no knowledge of this - got nothing.

I have also noticed that when animals are moved to a different place, with different trainers, they do take a huge step backwards. Training might well be quicker the second time round - but it cerainly isn't immediate, the animal still needs to re-learn in this enw environment.

Even in a family environment you see these problems - Solo is usually very responsive to both me and my mum because we trained him. My stepdad can struggle to get him to do anything, because even though he tries to us the same cues his tone of voice, pronounciation, etc is so different Solo often doesn't recognise what he says as a cue at all.

Certainly Solo's obedience depends very much on who is asking. He responds best for my mum (who doe almost all his training now), very well for me (I was heavily involved in his early training), occassionally for my stepdad (who gives cues infrequently) and almost never for anyone else.

Personally, I am not convinced getting a dog already trained in a specific way, to specific cues, in a specific environemtn and by aspecific person is worth it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

As has already been highlighted I'd be worried what sort of methods had been used previously. I'd also want to bond with my new dog & training is a great way to do this. I'd not be improving my own skills if I just left it to someone else rather than learning with my dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Unless the new owner was a good handler the dog would soon become 'untrained'. And if you are a good handler why would you want a dog trained by someone else.
You can send your dog away to be trained but it is you that needs training as much if not more than the dog.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I agree with what has been said, you have no idea what methods have ben used and to be honest most dog training classes are about training the handler anyway 

It's quite common for people to buy part trained gun dogs though isn't it  Do people view that the same ??


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I agree with what has been said, you have no idea what methods have ben used and to be honest most dog training classes are about training the handler anyway
> 
> It's quite common for people to buy part trained gun dogs though isn't it  Do people view that the same ??


I think buying a trained gun dog or sheep dog is slightly different. It take as long time to get them trained to where they are a useful dog and some farmers or shooters (is that the word!) dont want or have time or ability or whatever to train a dog but do need one to work. They could still soon 'untrain' it through bad handling so are taking a risk that it will actually work for them. I imagine they would be sensible to have training lessons with the trainer before taking the dog away as it would need to be handled the same way and given the same commands


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

As already stated, not everyone can use the same cues and get the same response. You would also need to be thoroughly conversant with whatever methods were used. If Ferdie escapes out the front door, say I have careless builders, he will lie on his back and refuse to move. I come along and say "Ferdie, come" and he gets up straight away but no one else can do it.

Training can also go downhill very fast if not kept up and it needs to be kept up with the methods already used, which you may not like. And I do agree that part of having a dog is the satisfaction of training him yourself and achieving a lifelong bond.

I also do not believe in sending a dog away to be trained, as though it is a defective motor car. The human needs the training, not just the dog. All in all, I think it is a lousy idea.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> As already stated, not everyone can use the same cues and get the same response.


Quite, so in effect you are buying a robot


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Have to say though if Tex was a Rescue i would have him in a shot 

I assume they charge well over the odds for these dogs. 

What really concerns me about this is they are Personal Protection trained. Now i can only assume that is like Police Dog training therefore pretty lethal in the wrong hands and what are the chances of these dogs being in "the wrong hands" pretty high i would say 

Also no mention of them being Health Tested at all which really is unforgivable with this particular breed.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I think buying a trained gun dog or sheep dog is slightly different. It take as long time to get them trained to where they are a useful dog and some farmers or shooters (is that the word!) dont want or have time or ability or whatever to train a dog but do need one to work. They could still soon 'untrain' it through bad handling so are taking a risk that it will actually work for them. I imagine they would be sensible to have training lessons with the trainer before taking the dog away as it would need to be handled the same way and given the same commands


How true. One of my sister's neighbouring farmers paid a tremendous amount of money for a fully trained sheepdog - the outcome was the farmer rounded up the sheep on his quadbike whilst the dog chased rabbits or lay chewing a stick on the perimeter of the field keeping a beady eye on proceedings......


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

If these dogs are anything like the ones who go away to be trained by a good residential trainer, then there won't be the problem of the dog not responding to the new handler. Any residential trainer worth their salt has a long handover training session with the new owners, and will provide back up should the dog not respond to the new environment or the owners cues. 

A lot of people have a dog for 'protection' but have they actually trained it correctly or is just out of control and fear aggressive? 

As stated on their website 'A Personal Protection dog in the wrong hands could be classed as a weapon, therefore, as a responsible company we take all steps reasonably possible to ensure that our dogs don't go to the wrong people. '

I see the GSD's are on choke chains, pretty standard among many GSD owners/trainers/and the emergency and armed forces. 

Sometimes I think it might be better that a dog is already trained, socialised and an owner given a set of instructions than let ignorant (but well meaning) owners not bring up their pups properly.

I would also add my opinion on this has changed in recent years, before I would have said it was 'lazy' and that the dog wouldn't bond to it's new owners, but I think that's claptrap now, and fully appreciate not everyone can be or wants to be a good dog trainer. Some just want a good dog, and if residential training is what works for them, then I don't think asking for help is lazy at all. The amount of clients I have at class who have rubbish timing, despite it being explained to them, and their dogs suffering as a result is numerous. :frown:

People are assuming these dogs are taught with harsh physical, positive punishment without actually their being any evidence to suggest so on their site, we shouldn't take words like 'firm' and fit them into a box we want them to be in.  They say their residential training for PP takes 6-8 weeks which is long enough imo.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> If these dogs are anything like the ones who go away to be trained by a good residential trainer, then there won't be the problem of the dog not responding to the new handler. Any residential trainer worth their salt has a long handover training session with the new owners, and will provide back up should the dog not respond to the new environment or the owners cues.
> 
> A lot of people have a dog for 'protection' but have they actually trained it correctly or is just out of control and fear aggressive?
> 
> ...


I dont think anyone assumed that i think mostly people said that it would concern them what methods had been used. Obviously we cant comment on this particular company without full knowledge i think people were just generalizing about this concept 

I still quite fancy Tex though and if he did come immaculately trained OMG !!


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## Montelimar (Feb 16, 2011)

Lots of interesting points here, I know very little about the training process with working dogs, is it very common to have them sent away or get them pre-trained?



London Dogwalker said:


> I would also add my opinion on this has changed in recent years, before I would have said it was 'lazy' and that the dog wouldn't bond to it's new owners, but I think that's claptrap now, and fully appreciate not everyone can be or wants to be a good dog trainer. Some just want a good dog, and if residential training is what works for them, then I don't think asking for help is lazy at all. The amount of clients I have at class who have rubbish timing, despite it being explained to them, and their dogs suffering as a result is numerous. :frown:


This was the feeling that originally made me curious and I googled pre-trained dogs in the UK to see if such a thing existed for domestic dogs. The thing I was thinking about was the number of dogs put down, and all the pet dogs that the owners just give up on, all because not many pet owners actually *know* how to train an animal effectively. I do take all the points that people have made though - the bonding aspect of it, the fact that as an owner you have a responsibility to train your dog, and the possibility that you could untrain the dog with your ignorance. It's an interesting idea though.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> People are assuming these dogs are taught with harsh physical, positive punishment without actually their being any evidence to suggest so on their site, we shouldn't take words like 'firm' and fit them into a box we want them to be in.  They say their residential training for PP takes 6-8 weeks which is long enough imo.


I was talking to a "trainer" only a couple of weeks ago who told me if he was dealing with a particular dog privately he would punch or kick it.


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## Montelimar (Feb 16, 2011)

What's that got to do with these A1k9 people though? there's going to be bad trainers out there, doesn't mean people should never put their dog in for private training...


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Montelimar said:


> What's that got to do with these A1k9 people though? there's going to be bad trainers out there, doesn't mean people should never put their dog in for private training...


I'm not saying it has anything to do with them, I haven't even looked at the site. What I am saying is it does happen and I would be worried about it.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just wanted to add - while I am broadly speaking against the idea of buying pre-trained (pet) dogs, or sending dogs away for training, I do like to see people putting some effort into training dogs that are in their care.

Rescues are the obvious example here - dogs in many rescues receive basic training and some behavioural work if necessary to make them more adoptable.

Breeders can also play a part - good socialisation whilst the pup is still with the breeder can make a huge difference to how well that dog will cope when it goes to its new home. Some breeders take this further and begin some early training - in some cases this is as simple as starting to housetrain and getting pups used to wearing a collar. Others go further and will teach the basics of things like sit and recall.

However, whilst these things can certainly make life easier for a new owner, they still won't provide a fully trained dog and should not claim to.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Agree with Colette.

There's a lot more to training than giving commands too isn't there? I'm thinking of body language, expression, tone of voice etc.. Training is communication as well as you and your dog getting to know each other's unique personality.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

Much about dog training is to do with the handler, You can get a gundog trained to a reasonable standard for around £4000 , but it is then up to the handler to understand and enhance otherwise an utter waste of money.

Aquiring a dog that has already been trained to a basic level, sitting, walking, staying etc is often easy as many older preloved dogs have been trained as such!

As for a guard dog - To work a dog as aguard dog I am sure you, the owner needs to be licenced.
DT


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## rabbitlovemydog (Feb 23, 2011)

I've heard that this sort of thing happens in the States where rich or time stressed people will get a puppy, send it to a trainer and then get it back. Personally I think what is the point of getting a dog if you arent going to be there to spend time with it, watch it grow, change and learn and gain its trust and bond together. I found the training of my puppy so enjoyable, (yes it can be frustrating at times I agree!) but I really got in to it and it was a special time. I find that the timing has to be right for getting a new dog/puppy, you have to make sure you have lots of time to devote to it. I followed a book 'the perfect puppy' by Gwen (sorry cant remember her surname) which my friend told me about and it was really good.


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## logansmum (Feb 23, 2011)

Its the owners that need training on how to understand, train and bond with the dog- no matter what the dogs background. Simple.


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I was talking to a "trainer" only a couple of weeks ago who told me if he was dealing with a particular dog privately he would punch or kick it.


There are always bad apples 



DoubleTrouble said:


> Much about dog training is to do with the handler, You can get a gundog trained to a reasonable standard for around £4000 , but it is then up to the handler to understand and enhance otherwise an utter waste of money.
> 
> Aquiring a dog that has already been trained to a basic level, sitting, walking, staying etc is often easy as many older preloved dogs have been trained as such!
> 
> ...


Nah not in the UK you don't, Schutzhund is personal protection and that's a sport  If you're working with a protection dog in an official capacity then yes you do....seurity guards etc



rabbitlovemydog said:


> I've heard that this sort of thing happens in the States where rich or time stressed people will get a puppy, send it to a trainer and then get it back. *Personally I think what is the point of getting a dog if you arent going to be there to spend time with it, watch it grow, change and learn and gain its trust and bond together.* I found the training of my puppy so enjoyable, (yes it can be frustrating at times I agree!) but I really got in to it and it was a special time. I find that the timing has to be right for getting a new dog/puppy, you have to make sure you have lots of time to devote to it. I followed a book 'the perfect puppy' by Gwen (sorry cant remember her surname) which my friend told me about and it was really good.


What about rescue dogs?  And these are always new things you can teach dogs.....even 'ready trained' ones!



logansmum said:


> Its the owners that need training on how to understand, train and bond with the dog- no matter what the dogs background. Simple.


What if they don't want to or are rubbish at training?

I plan to offer residential training in the next few months and look forward to doing it the correct way, training dogs is easy, training handlers much harder. :lol:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

London Dogwalker said:


> I plan to offer residential training in the next few months and look forward to doing it the correct way, training dogs is easy, training handlers much harder. :lol:


I know a number of very good resedential trainers but tbh and ime that is not the norm in this niche. There a number of resedential trainers here and the results have been disastrous (they have been very good for my business, fortunately and unfortunately).

I've forgotten whether the OP was looking at PPD or a pet  :confused1: but I don't think an inexperienced owner should be given a pre trained PPD.
I am a firm beleiver that anyone acquiring such a dog should do a course with the dog, whether the dog is pre trained or not.

Choke chains are often used in areas such as miilitary, police and SAR dogs as a means for releasing the dog quickly. We have spoken to many organisations in relation to this. Even dogs that are trained with R+ methodologies are worked on choke chains in lots of scenarios.

I have looked into this area of dog training and am not enamoured by it. I think it makes it even harder for pet owners to choose a good trainer. I want to promote the dog-human relationship BUT I do see the benefit of 'starting' a pet dog and then handing over to the pet owner with extensive instruction. I would prefer that this is not done via resedential training but must say it is a method I use with one2one sessions, fosters, day training etc.

Much to think about but on the whole not a fan as previously stated - thanks for making me think LDW


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I don't think any member of the public should have a protection dog. A schutzhund trained dog is one thing an operational protection dog is a whole new ball game.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Thinking about it "selling" a pretrained dog, or even advertising a residential course to train your dog, is going to give the illusion, to those who dont know better that they are going to get the perfect dog back, that will require no work at all. I agree to as been said, just because the dog works for the handler and trainer its used to, doesnt mean it will be the same for the new owner. Even mine because Im the only one who does the serious training wont do the same things to the same degree for anyone else. They will do a lot of things but not all, even then the responses are never as quick.


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## logansmum (Feb 23, 2011)

London Dogwalker said:


> What if they don't want to or are rubbish at training?
> 
> I plan to offer residential training in the next few months and look forward to doing it the correct way, training dogs is easy, training handlers much harder. :lol:


If a dog owner doesnt want to learn how to train and bond with their dog then they shouldnt have a dog. If they are rubbish at training, then you aint doing YOUR job right.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

OMG  I've just been looking through the sold dogs and found the 1st rottie that my stupid sister had. She had to give up when he was about 10-12 months old cos she couldn't cope, she said he was nasty but he was like a pussycat with me 

Trained Obedient Pet from A1K9. (18 month old German Shepherd, Tyson)

The fact that he went as obedience pet trained on and off lead tells the true story 

She did get another one after Tyson went but he was nasty, I was afraid to visit cos he'd go for you if you looked at him :scared: he didn't last long either but thankfully she didn't get another.


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## billie jo (Feb 17, 2011)

There's literally hundreds of places up and down the country that sell pretrained dogs. It all depends on how much you want to pay. Some of the PP (personal protection) dogs can go for £10,000 - 20,000 maybe more. GP dogs (general patrol) , anything from a couple of hundred upwards, £2,000 is not an unusual figure to pay. My own working dogs are ex police. Therefore pretrained. They are very different to pet dogs. I am a NASDU registered EDI level 2 dog handler. I train weekly with a NASDU registered Instructor. Sam is from Belgium, a very, what we call, hard dog, a lot of drive. Billie is ex Met and is still quite green - but she's getting there. We do an awful lot of obdience and agility work. We have to take our work very seriously. Our dogs have to be under control at all times. Don't get me wrong - my dogs have a seriously good life! They spend most of their time with me, probably more than most pet dogs do with their owners. And I love them with all my heart! But when we are working their role is to protect me, as we do get sent to some very dangerous sites! Both my dogs are well versed in 'search.' We use balls to train them - Sam will do anything for a tennis ball! Billie Bear is more food orientated. They are definately a deterrant - we get sent to sites where there have been constant breakins, once a dog is on site - nothing. One time a group of drunken youths came in armed with a four x four piece of wood - they soon dropped it and were on their toes when confronted by a feisty blonde with a protective Mali on a lead! lol There are good dealers and there are bad - some places I visited where dog hell holes, where I wanted to buy every dog there, but I couldn't. My reason for buying an older dog was that for my work I had to have an adult dog with me. You see you can't just go out and buy any dog and train it up for security, the dog does have to have drive. When my dogs frow older and can no longer work they will be retired and stay with me. 
As for buying a pretrained pet dog - aww come on - that's just downright lazy! lol
I expect someone is gonna now give me a hard time for what I do for a living - but I love my dogs, I stand by their sides almost as much as they stand by mine!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Hard as it can be training is part of the fun - surely. I wouldn't want someone else taking the credit for my dogs good behaviour, on the other hand if you don't have a clue perhaps it would suit some people.

Quite often it's the person who's handling the dog (owner) who needs training, so I wonder if it really works.

What will they think of next, I wonder! :


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## billie jo (Feb 17, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Hard as it can be training is part of the fun - surely. I wouldn't want someone else taking the credit for my dogs good behaviour, on the other hand if you don't have a clue perhaps it would suit some people.
> 
> Quite often it's the person who's handling the dog (owner) who needs training, so I wonder if it really works.
> 
> What will they think of next, I wonder! :


For sure Malmum! I learn new things all the time. With Sammy I was so very lucky. He's clever, loyal, brave. He did have some issues which have now been sorted out - but what a dog! I got Billie to take over from Sam when I retire him. Bills didn't 'speak' when I first got her - that was a milestone passed when she eventually did! She was very green. With her, it's a matter of calming her down, obedience and then teaching her how I want things done. But now when we go out on patrol she indicates when she senses someone is there - she really is starting to get it together - and I am really proud of the little madam! lol Some handlers tho will never make it - one that springs to mind has an excellent little dog, but the handler is useless!


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2011)

London Dogwalker said:


> Nah not in the UK you don't, Schutzhund is personal protection and that's a sport  If you're working with a protection dog in an official capacity then yes you do....seurity guards etc
> 
> I plan to offer residential training in the next few months and look forward to doing it the correct way, training dogs is easy, training handlers much harder. :lol:





hawksport said:


> I don't think any member of the public should have a protection dog. A schutzhund trained dog is one thing an operational protection dog is a whole new ball game.


TBH I have mixed feelings about the schutzhund training! if it not just another 'fancy word for adanced training?

Personally if I wanted to track with a dog I would get a pointer a bloodhound or a weimy!
Not saying that any dog would not be suitable but those would be the breed I would look at.


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I don't think any member of the public should have a protection dog. A schutzhund trained dog is one thing an operational protection dog is a whole new ball game.


What do you think the differences are? Schutzhund is also protection work where the dog is motivated to be a controlled aggressive animal, originally it was the test for police dogs. It's not always done with compulsion and punishment either, more modern trainers such as Ivan Balabanov use gentler methods, you can even clicker schutzhund. 



Sled dog hotel said:


> Thinking about it "selling" a pretrained dog, or even advertising a residential course to train your dog, is going to give the illusion, to those who dont know better that they are going to get the perfect dog back, that will require no work at all. I agree to as been said, just because the dog works for the handler and trainer its used to, doesnt mean it will be the same for the new owner. Even mine because Im the only one who does the serious training wont do the same things to the same degree for anyone else. They will do a lot of things but not all, even then the responses are never as quick.


If you give the owners unreal expectations then I take your point, but I've already explained how GOOD residential trainers work, if the owners cba to carry on the training in the home then it's a complete waste of time.



logansmum said:


> If a dog owner doesnt want to learn how to train and bond with their dog then they shouldnt have a dog. If they are rubbish at training, then you aint doing YOUR job right.


Firstly, that's not for you to say, do you feel the same about blind people, deaf people, people with epilepsy?? They're just lazy right?

Secondly, how many years have you been a dog trainer exactly, and how many clients have you taught? 



shazalhasa said:


> OMG  I've just been looking through the sold dogs and found the 1st rottie that my stupid sister had. She had to give up when he was about 10-12 months old cos she couldn't cope, she said he was nasty but he was like a pussycat with me
> 
> Trained Obedient Pet from A1K9. (18 month old German Shepherd, Tyson)
> 
> ...


Did she buy them pre trained then?



Malmum said:


> Hard as it can be training is part of the fun - surely. I wouldn't want someone else taking the credit for my dogs good behaviour, on the other hand if you don't have a clue perhaps it would suit some people.
> 
> Quite often it's the person who's handling the dog (owner) who needs training, so I wonder if it really works.
> 
> What will they think of next, I wonder! :


I don't think anyone who's done training has said that the owner doesn't get trained also...and neither does the site in question. I bet a HUGE amount of residential training centres don't just sell you a dog with no handover, that WOULD be irresponsible.



DoubleTrouble said:


> TBH I have mixed feelings about the schutzhund training! if it not just another 'fancy word for adanced training?
> 
> Personally if I wanted to track with a dog I would get a pointer a bloodhound or a weimy!
> Not saying that any dog would not be suitable but those would be the breed I would look at.


Well, they're not the same thing, because shutzhund combines 3 disciplines, protection being one of them, and of course Schutzhund is an internationally recognized sport. A friend of mine does competitive obedience, agility and search/scent work with his dog and he said he wouldn't do Schutz cos he had kids  Which makes you think a bit....not all breeds are suitable for Schutz or PP anyway, they have to have a lot of drive.

A pointer or weimy wouldn't really be great at Schutzhund but it's a sport open to all breeds, from what I know anyway.  I'd love to do it with a Giant Schnauzer...one day maybe.  A pointer or weimy would be ace at search and rescue though :thumbup:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> What do you think the differences are? Schutzhund is also protection work where the dog is motivated to be a controlled aggressive animal, originally it was the test for police dogs. It's not always done with compulsion and punishment either, more modern trainers such as Ivan Balabanov use gentler methods, you can even clicker schutzhund.


The biggest difference is that hidden sleaves aren't used, a sport dog knows he is biting a toy and as soon as that toy is slipped of the helpers arm the dog has no interest in him except to play. That IMO makes a safer dog than one who is trained to a hidden sleeve and believes he is biting a person.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

The bloke down the pub with the total nightmare over reactive GSD dabbled in Schutzhund, reading this thread now makes that make more sense, bloody thing was hanging off its lead full on going at my 2 year old 

This sort of thing really should be left to experienced dog handlers not just any old Joe Public who Fs it up and then cant control what he has half arsed created  It will be the dog that suffers in the end in that situation.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> The bloke down the pub with the total nightmare over reactive GSD dabbled in Schutzhund, reading this thread now makes that make more sense, bloody thing was hanging off its lead full on going at my 2 year old
> 
> This sort of thing really should be left to experienced dog handlers not just any old Joe Public who Fs it up and then cant control what he has half arsed created  It will be the dog that suffers in the end in that situation.


There's people here with more Sch experience than me and I.m sure they will correct me if I'm wrong. A dog like that would never have passed its BH test to allow it to do any protection work. So Sch has probably got nothing to do with the way it is.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

hawksport said:


> There's people here with more Sch experience than me and I.m sure they will correct me if I'm wrong. A dog like that would never have passed its BH test to allow it to do any protection work. So Sch has probably got nothing to do with the way it is.


It wasnt being trained for protection the bloke just wanted to "have a go" as kind of an alternative to agility/obedience, i think because the dog couldnt have done either of those.

You could be right though, the dog has appeared to have issues from day one but you can see how someone dabbling in that sort of thing could get it horribly wrong :confused1:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> It wasnt being trained for protection the bloke just wanted to "have a go" as kind of an alternative to agility/obedience, i think because the dog couldnt have done either of those.
> 
> You could be right though, the dog has appeared to have issues from day one but you can see how someone dabbling in that sort of thing could get it horribly wrong :confused1:


Absolutely. My dog would of made a good Sch dog confident, friendly and lots of drive. I didn't have the time to do it properly though so he worked obedience instead. We have a Sch titled dog on the DD stand this year,


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

hawksport said:


> There's people here with more Sch experience than me and I.m sure they will correct me if I'm wrong. A dog like that would never have passed its BH test to allow it to do any protection work. So Sch has probably got nothing to do with the way it is.


yes you are right he wouldnt have passed...if fact he prob wouldnt have even made it through the door.

This is prob a person who looked online and thought 'yes thats easy ill do it myself' 

Its not something any random person can teach, this is exactly what happens when people F it up.....now the poor dog is paying for his owners stupidity


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Absolutely. My dog would of made a good Sch dog confident, friendly and lots of drive. I didn't have the time to do it properly though so he worked obedience instead. We have a Sch titled dog on the DD stand this year,


I can't see that this dog ever had any of those qualities, just too reactive IMO, The poor thing really is a liability now, he was talking about getting another pup a year or so ago and i really tried to talk him into getting an older steadier bitch to try and help steady the younger one.



cutekiaro1 said:


> yes you are right he wouldnt have passed...if fact he prob wouldnt have even made it through the door.
> 
> This is prob a person who looked online and thought 'yes thats easy ill do it myself'
> 
> Its not something any random person can teach, this is exactly what happens when people F it up.....now the poor dog is paying for his owners stupidity


Thats more how i see the situation sadly, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing


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