# 1st stages i think



## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

alright i think baby is in first stages she has discharge, meowing,purring,cleaning herself alot found a few clumps of fur this morning when i got upshe wont let me take her temp will keep you all updated


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Good luck with the labour and delivery, I'll be thinking of you. Have everything crossed that she's able to cope ok.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

shes asleep now purring her little head of and cleaning herself i think her waters broke she got up for a drink and there was a wet patch how long can first stages last


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

ok i think we in stage 2 now she is having contractions and pushing every now and then nothing in birth canal yet she cleaning herself heaps n heaps


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

How long has she been pushing for? If she is pushing for more than an hour with her being small I'd give your vet a call.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

ok first kitten is out syhe cleaning it and everything atm came out feet first no sac .....


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Keep an eye out for the placentas. Was there not one attached to the cord?


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

she hasnt had another contraction yet so placenta still inside


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

So kitten is out and cord still inside with placenta?

I'll try and help here, but I warn you I have a monster migraine and I'm not totally with it.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

yep kitten out with cord attatched still hanginf out of queen she cleaning kitten still


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

placenta out


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

OK that sounds fine so far. It the kitten OK? any noises from it yet, does it look to be breathing/lively?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> placenta out


Great :thumbsup: Let her munch it if she wants to. It will help sustain her for a couple of days  She might not have it straight away. My girl didn't eat the first one straight away, she only got a taste for it once the second kitten came out ... eww that makes me feel queasy remembering that bit!


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

yep made noise as soon as queen licked its face she making noises while mum cleaning looking for nipple but mum keeps knocking her off while cleaning .... queen ate placenta


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Bless her  She sounds like she's doing a great job of stimulating the little one! There's no immediate rush for them to feed.

When she starts pushing for the next one, try if you can to move the first one out of the way a little. Do you have a heat pad near by? Or even a water bottle ... I don't know what things you have ready to hand?

The heat pad isn't a desperate need, but it would help so the kitten doesn't chill while she is delivering the next one. Then when the second one is out, you can pop the little ones back to the boobies ... rinse and repeat.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

kitten cant find nipple through all the fur.... and when she goes to the back ones mum moves


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

its quiet warm here today its around 25c inside atm ... it is 4.40pm here i do have a heat pad but it was for the pups will it be fine to use for kittens to if it gets cold ...


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

It's OK, don't panic just yet. When your queens lays down she will be fine. Like I said the little one will be fine for now  It's great that it's looking for food so quickly though, so be very pleased 

Will your queen let you stroke her? I know when my girl was in labour she relaxed so much with a bit of loving, and she lay down happily for the kits as the came. Is your girl still purring rhythmically?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

While I think about it, do you have those digital scales now? It would be very beneficial to you to weight the kittens once they dry. Or weigh them an hour after each one is born ... so don't forget to write the times down when they arrive, and and distinguishing marks you can see so they don't get mixed up.

I had things wrote down something like this:

Kitten 1, Born 10:15pm, Blue/cream, weight 1hr 98g, placenta present and consumed.

(though you would use identifiable marks as colour will be harder for you).

Then I weighed them all again once each one reached 12 hours old. Then it was every 24 hours after that until they were 6 or 7 weeks old, then weekly.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

queen is asking for me to stroke her i think she relaxes when i do stroke her... she was in birthing room earlier i was getting kiddies some food and she came out and meowed at my feet walked half way to room then looked back meowed i followed her she layed down straight away in her birthing draw(will explain later about that) and then sat meowing till i pat her..... second one out now to


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not sure if you mean you left her earlier before the birth started or not, but I would strongly recommend you don't leave her at all now until you're more than confident she has finished. She is obviously very attached to you, and she will be counting on you being there now until it's all over 

Is the second one looking OK?


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

no i left to get kids food when she was in first stages havnt left her side since the kittens started coming second one trying to find food now to waiting on placenta both look to be black 1 with white one plain black and yes still purring till push time them meowing not a bad one though


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Did you see my question about the scales a few posts back?

Sounds like everything is going smoothly so far!

My girl barely made a sound throughout, except for a little grunt when she was pushing. Some queens scream the place down though! Some of the vids I watched on youtube before hand put the frighteners on my something awful :lol:

Edit: If Baby lays down, you can gently part her fur to find a nipple or two, then gently pop the little ones to them


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

yep got the scales will weigh them when she all done and they are dry... she not screaming the house down thank god i rkn i would cry =(


3rd out


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

If you can, weigh them as each one dries hun. You could be in for a loooooooong ride, so some (if there are anymore?) could be hours away yet.

Given Baby's history I would step up the closeness on how you monitor the little ones hun, just to be safe. A few grams will make all the difference in the first few days. If they haven't gained any weight in the first 12 hours there may be a problem, the quicker you find these things, the quicker it can be dealt with


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Ohhh 3rd? all OK too? Did the second ones placenta come out yet?


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

yep will do will post all weights tonight first one not dry yet 3rd one is black/white/brown


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

What about the placentas? all present/consumed?


EDIT: anymore pics?


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

yep all placentas sighted and eaten =) am i allowed to touch them?? cant get a proper pic as they feeding and mum very fluffy ... she had the 3rd at 5.05pm and hasnt had a contraction since


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Yeah you sure can  Just make sure you've washed your hands thoroughly with something none scented, and you'll be fine  Best to get them used to being handle asap, and mum used to you handling them for weighing etc.

Obviously, right now it is only best to give them a quick look over and weigh (like less than a 30second job), no cuddles just yet. If Baby starts looking distressed with you handling them just stop for now. Best way to avoid this is by popping the scales right next to them so she can see what you're doing while you weigh them 

She could well be done at 3, but she could just be resting too. Some queens can go 24 hours between kittens, just to warn you


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

deff not done can see another ready to come but no contractions also one still in tummy moving about.... will weigh them in 10 min for now heres a pic sorry its not to good


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

When you say you can see another one ready to come what do you mean? Is she showing? Not pushing? uh oh...


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Hun if the kitten is in the birth canal for more than 10 mins with no pushing I think this means it's in distress... if this is the case please give your vet a call for advice! The vet wont mind, and it's better to be safe, the vet will be able to tell you what to do if you do need to intervene.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

just caught up how is everyting going???????


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

ok kitten one black/white 82g
kitten 2 black 87g
kitten 3 black/brown/white 83g

no kitten in canal i thought there was cause Babys vulva is swollen but there is not hard spot behind it ...


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

oh thank fooooooooook for that!




*and breathe bbm!*


I thought you meant you could see a kitten and there was no pushing for the last 40 minutes...... phew phew


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Those weights are pretty good for a small momma :thumbup:

Is there still movement in her tummy Kayla?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

The general rule of thumb is that if she hasnt started on the next kitten (you still think there is one or two inside?) within the hour of the last then its time to call the vets just for some advice first.

Is mum settled and feeding the kittens that have been born?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> The general rule of thumb is that if she hasnt started on the next kitten (you still think there is one or two inside?) within the hour of the last then its time to call the vets just for some advice first.
> 
> Is mum settled and feeding the kittens that have been born?


BBM is right here. I certainly would think this for a first time mum/breeder, and with Baby's history on top ... definitely!

A phone call isn't going to be a problem for any decent vet


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

yep shes sounds asleep all 3 are suckling and shes purring her little head off hehe sooo cute i dont think i can feel anymore in there will ring vet soon.... shes scoffing down some food and water now


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Hun you said earlier, after kit 3 was born that you felt movement in her tummy. Please don't disregard it. Mention it when you call the vet to be safe 

Pics are lovely looks like you have at least two girls


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

my vet it going to ring me in half hour he is currently doing a emergency C section..... why do you say i have 2 girls ... can you tell by colour


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

you have 2 torties (or calicos is another name)... 99.99999999999% of torties are girls.

The boy torties are genetic anomolies and shouldnt ever happen really lol.


So its a very safe bet to say at least 2 of your kittens are girls 


I am pretty sure your black/white will actually be a tortie, but its possible its not lol, only time will tell when they have dried off and fluffed up!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Congratulations! Isn't it the most magical experience? 
Kitten number 3 looks like a tortie so she must be a girl, but they are all gorgeous.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

i love the tortie one already i was just saying th3e other day to some1 on here i have always wanted a tortie lol only one is tortie other t2 black one with white


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

This all sounds perfectly normal, there is no cause for alarm from what you have posted. Resting for a couple of hours or more between kittens is perfectly normal. Just keep checking on her. The time you need to worry is if she has been actively straining for more than two hours with no kitten.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

for more than 2 hours???

I do hope your joking about straining for 2 hours liz!


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

shes not having any contractions at all i took her for a walk around the house while my patner changed bedding thought that may have brought on contractions but hasnt she just laying down feeding the 3 kittens asleep


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

dont worry abotu a rest period too much, just mention to the vet that you did feel another kitten moving inside when he rings.

Some cats have a break for up to 24 hours ish for the last kitten, BUT i wouldnt ever reccomend leaving it that long without the experience. 

There is a difference between a break and uterine inertia - one is nothing to worry about, the other most definatly IS xxx


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> dont worry abotu a rest period too much, just mention to the vet that you did feel another kitten moving inside when he rings.
> 
> Some cats have a break for up to 24 hours ish for the last kitten, BUT i wouldnt ever reccomend leaving it that long without the experience.
> 
> There is a difference between a break and uterine inertia - one is nothing to worry about, the other most definatly IS xxx


he rang and he said hes not too concerned she doesnt seemed destressed and isnt having contractions with no kitten he said we can leave it till morning if she stays resting the way she is then he will come around and check her out xx


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> This all sounds perfectly normal, there is no cause for alarm from what you have posted. Resting for a couple of hours or more between kittens is perfectly normal. Just keep checking on her. The time you need to worry is if she has been actively straining for more than two hours with no kitten.
> 
> Liz


Oh for christ sake Liz!

Please don't start with you lax advice.

Kayla is not an experienced breeder, and you are not there to evaluate the situation. You can not possible give accurate advice.

It much better to err on the side of caution here, instead of taking risks for Baby's life and any potential kittens she might have inside her yet.

Even experienced breeders like yourself get it wrong... remember the litter this year you had when you waited too long to get your girl to the vet?

I don't want to start an argument with you AGAIN Liz, but please just bloody STOP!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> he rang and he said hes not too concerned she doesnt seemed destressed and isnt having contractions with no kitten he said we can leave it till morning if she stays resting the way she is then he will come around and check her out xx


That's good to hear :thumbup:.

Now, enjoy the beauty  I hope intervention is not needed and everything continues to go smoothly. xxx


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

mummyxofx2 said:


> he rang and he said hes not too concerned she doesnt seemed destressed and isnt having contractions with no kitten he said we can leave it till morning if she stays resting the way she is then he will come around and check her out xx


absoloutly!

If she starts to look uncomfy, unusually vocal or is paying ALOT (some is normal) attention to her nether regions then its a sign that things arent right.

Keep an eye on the colour of the discharge too - it should be blood red- pink, never green black brown or pus coloured.

Any of the above... call the vet back


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

she has hardly any discharge now she has cleaned her areas 2 timesa since 3rd kittens which was almost 3 hours ago shes has lots to eat plus 3 placentas lol and some milk and water to shes sound asleep again now purring her head off... all kittens are feeding .... they are sooo cute


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

oh her discharge is a light blood colour and her is another pic about to go have some supper myself and let her rest in peace and will check on her very shortly... i am pretty sure that there is still 1 or 2 in there i can feel tiny little movements but its up high near her rib cage vet has been told about that to


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

mummyxofx2 said:


> she has hardly any discharge now she has cleaned her areas 2 timesa since 3rd kittens which was almost 3 hours ago shes has lots to eat plus 3 placentas lol and some milk and water to shes sound asleep again now purring her head off... all kittens are feeding .... they are sooo cute


:lol: You think she's eaten a lot through this! You just wait  Just feed her as much as she wants, she got lots of milk to produce for at least 3 babies. Imagine how much milk you would need to feed triplets  (Oh my, my mind is now boggling)

What milk is she having Kayla? Not human milk I hope  I'm sure you wouldn't but it's best to ask these things as folk still don't realise what it could do.

Glad I was here  But I really think I might need some sleep now (had 2 hours) :lol: Night night/morning morning... xxx Once again, I hope you don't have any problems and things carry on as a text book birthing


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

One more thing... the black and white kitty, I think I spot a couple of tiny brownish flecks on it's back end in that pic you just posted?


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Well done to new mum and her human mum:thumbup:.Glad to see all seems well ,will be keeping a close eye on this thread.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

nope they white flecks hehe and no she having kitten milk she has been having it daily as dessert since i got her she absolutly loves it lol yes my rottweiler ate alot when producing milk for 8 puppies lol i remember it very well was only almost 5 months ago now


thanks everyone for your support immm so glad she has had no trouble so far lets hope she continues to go smoothly....

and again thanks everyone for your support and kind words


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> for more than 2 hours???
> 
> I do hope your joking about straining for 2 hours liz!


No, I think that's fairly standard advice  I am talking about active labour.

Liz


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Sorry for only catching up on this now, but I am extremely relieved that it's all gone so well so far. 

Well done you, and Baby.

Welcome, little ones.  

I hope the rest of the birth goes well too.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

mummyxofx2 said:


> oh her discharge is a light blood colour and her is another pic about to go have some supper myself and let her rest in peace and will check on her very shortly... i am pretty sure that there is still 1 or 2 in there i can feel tiny little movements but its up high near her rib cage vet has been told about that to


glad everythings fine, everything sounds to have gone smoothly, are you gonna keep the tortie? xxx


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> No, I think that's fairly standard advice  I am talking about active labour.
> 
> Liz


The advice for every vet i have known is that if a queen is actively PUSHING for more than 1 hour it must be treated as an emergency and vets advice sought.

Active labour isnt just about pushing liz, its about strong contractions, for me pushing for more than an hour without a kitten means there could be something very wrong!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

who to listen to??? the panic mongers or the chronically relaxed?? The scaremongers or the lax??

Personally given the choice of following "Lax Liz" or "By The Book BBM"

... my money is on the BBM *every* time

:thumbsup:


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Tje said:


> Personally given the choice of following "Lax Liz" or "By The Book BBM"


:lol::lol::lol: That's hilarious! You deserve a rep for that, but I'm all out.


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

shes still all good no more kittens or contraction as of yet .... its now 9:32pm here so will be up alll night lol


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

mummyxofx2 said:


> shes still all good no more kittens or contraction as of yet .... its now 9:32pm here so will be up alll night lol


grab a blanket and get comfy on the sofa.... i sleep with new litters for a week or two (or longer if needed)!


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## harrys_mum (Aug 18, 2010)

well done, lovely kitties, looks like mum is a great mum.
and you did a great job too. pat on the back.
michelle xx


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

it was heaps different to my bitch cause of how tiny they are i was to scared to touch them to weigh them lol .... is it safe to de flea whilst kittens are feeding off her as shes due to be de fleaed in 2 weeks


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

harrys_mum said:


> well done, lovely kitties, looks like mum is a great mum.
> and you did a great job too. pat on the back.
> michelle xx


thank you x


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

mummyxofx2 said:


> it was heaps different to my bitch cause of how tiny they are i was to scared to touch them to weigh them lol .... is it safe to de flea whilst kittens are feeding off her as shes due to be de fleaed in 2 weeks


in 2-3 weeks if they are strong and growing fine then yes you could use a lactation safe flea product. However, if she or they havent got fleas.... wait until they are 5 weeks when your weaning, that way if she rejects them its not such a bad thing!


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

i use the ones from the vet same as worming i wont use supermarket stuff ever she dont have fleas but because she was a inside outside cat i do it every few months


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> The advice for every vet i have known is that if a queen is actively PUSHING for more than 1 hour it must be treated as an emergency and vets advice sought.
> 
> Active labour isnt just about pushing liz, its about strong contractions, for me pushing for more than an hour without a kitten means there could be something very wrong!


Yes I mean 2nd stage labour, contractions which increase in frequency. OK, perhaps the standard advice is 1 hour then, it is such a long time since I was reading beginner's books on breeding that I honestly can't remember what they say. In my experience queens often go well beyond the hour and all is fine. Two hours is another matter and that is when I would start to get really concerned. Also I get concerned if labour is obviously painful to the point where the cat is getting in and out of the litter tray many times or is crying out, or of course if the contractions peak and then slow down and finally stop and don't restart. But the suggestion from Aurelia was that the OP should be panicking when her queen is asleep with three kittens, that's ludicrous!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Oh for christ sake Liz!
> 
> Please don't start with you lax advice.
> 
> ...


Sorry, which litter was that?

If the OP listened to you she would be dragging those babies and their Mum off to the vet quite needlessly - assuming of course that she hadn't dropped them off at the vets a week ago, or found a vet willing to spay the cat in the last week of pregnancy. You will learn, as you get more experience, that most births are perfectly straightforward and the tendency is usually to intervene too soon and subject the cat to an unnecessary caesarean. Panicking really doesn't help.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes I mean 2nd stage labour, contractions which increase in frequency. OK, perhaps the standard advice is 1 hour then, it is such a long time since I was reading beginner's books on breeding that I honestly can't remember what they say. In my experience queens often go well beyond the hour and all is fine. Two hours is another matter and that is when I would start to get really concerned. Also I get concerned if labour is obviously painful to the point where the cat is getting in and out of the litter tray many times or is crying out, or of course if the contractions peak and then slow down and finally stop and don't restart. But the suggestion from Aurelia was that the OP should be panicking when her queen is asleep with three kittens, that's ludicrous!
> 
> Liz


Here we go again, the lax breeder versus the by the book foster mum

Liz, BBM wasnt giving this advice to a breeder with 20 years experience and 50 litters. She was giving the advice to a first timer, a total novice in cat birthing. It is standard advice (given by vets!!!) to call a vet if a kitten hasnt been born within an hour.

As for the ludicrous advice given by Aurelia . What you mean like your ludicrous advice that newborn kittens would probably do perfectly well left unfed for 24 hours?? Now thats what I call ludicrous. Aurelia was merely erring on the side of caution. Which IMO is never ludicrous, its what sensible cautious people do. What harm does a call to a vet do? Its not like she was saying phone 999 and get the fire brigade, ambulance, police, coast gaurd and mountain rescue to the door.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

well done mummy & human mummy! 

i think you have 2 boys & 1 girl  

With my long haired girls we got the vet to shave her chest as the kittens were suckling fur and it was all matted as they couldnt get to the nips, maybe you could trim it?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Liz, BBM wasn't giving this advice to a breeder with 20 years experience and 50 litters. She was giving the advice to a first timer, a total novice in cat birthing. It is standard advice (given by vets!!!) to call a vet if a kitten hasn't been born within an hour.


An hour _of second stage labour_, perhaps. That was not the situation the OP was in. If BBM wants to advise calling the vet within an hour of active labour, fair enough, I wouldn't argue with that.



> As for the "ludicrous advice" given by Aurelia …. What you mean like your ludicrous advice that newborn kittens would probably do perfectly well left unfed for 24 hours?? Now that's what I call ludicrous.


And I stand by it, so there we are. The word was "probably". In other words, just because a cat who has not yet finihsed giving birth hasn't fed the kittens yet, don't panic - you start to panic if the kittens are still losing weight on the second day after birth.



> Aurelia was merely erring on the side of caution. Which IMO is never ludicrous, it's what sensible cautious people do. What harm does a call to a vet do? It's not like she was saying phone 999 and get the fire brigade, ambulance, police, coast gaurd and mountain rescue to the door.


It's the voice of inexperience, that's all. It does no harm, as long as the vet is only phoned and the OP doesn't bundle the poor cat and her kittens straight down to a vet just because the cat is resting.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> *It's the voice of inexperience, that's all*. It does no harm, as long as the vet is only phoned and the OP doesn't bundle the poor cat and her kittens straight down to a vet just because the cat is resting.
> 
> Liz


ROFLOL -- and your voice is what??? The voice of "the lacsadaiscal breeders society"???? The voice of the "laid back to the point of being horizontal brigade"????

Liz like I said earlier . Nobody was advising to call International Rescue or charter a helimed helicopter to get the cats to a vet, the only suggestion made was to *CALL A VET* and that was never ridiculous or ludicrous, that is standard advice *GIVEN BY VETS* in these circumstances. And for you to start labeling this kind of advice with words like ludicrous is frankly yet another example of your irresponsible and chronically laid back advice.

As for your no need to feed newborn kittens for the first 24 hours advice, even with the use of the word probably at the beginning -- that is possibly THE most dangerous advice I have ever came across on this forum. And thats experience talking too. Bearing in mind the bulk of my experience is not with queens and kittens, its with orphaned kittens.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

dont take over the thread! she has had the kits lets go from there!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes I mean 2nd stage labour, contractions which increase in frequency. OK, perhaps the standard advice is 1 hour then, it is such a long time since I was reading beginner's books on breeding that I honestly can't remember what they say. In my experience queens often go well beyond the hour and all is fine. Two hours is another matter and that is when I would start to get really concerned. Also I get concerned if labour is obviously painful to the point where the cat is getting in and out of the litter tray many times or is crying out, or of course if the contractions peak and then slow down and finally stop and don't restart. But the suggestion from Aurelia was that the OP should be panicking when her queen is asleep with three kittens, that's ludicrous!
> 
> Liz





lizward said:


> Sorry, which litter was that?
> 
> If the OP listened to you she would be dragging those babies and their Mum off to the vet quite needlessly - assuming of course that she hadn't dropped them off at the vets a week ago, or found a vet willing to spay the cat in the last week of pregnancy. You will learn, as you get more experience, that most births are perfectly straightforward and the tendency is usually to intervene too soon and subject the cat to an unnecessary caesarean. Panicking really doesn't help.
> 
> Liz





lizward said:


> An hour _of second stage labour_, perhaps. That was not the situation the OP was in. If BBM wants to advise calling the vet within an hour of active labour, fair enough, I wouldn't argue with that.
> 
> And I stand by it, so there we are. The word was "probably". In other words, just because a cat who has not yet finished giving birth hasn't fed the kittens yet, don't panic - you start to panic if the kittens are still losing weight on the second day after birth.
> 
> ...


Liz, as hard as you try you can't magically edit my posts to make it look like I told her to take her in to the vets. I have only suggested she call a vet. Now give it a flipping rest will you.

Oh and the litter I was referring to where you waited TOO LONG to get a vet involved was this one http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/117667-just-had-nasty-one.html.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this thread, but I will ask you to take it elsewhere if you still have a problem with my cautious advice. I'm happy to give you a long list of reasons why I am so cautious .

Kayla, how is Baby and her babies doing now hun?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Congratulations on the safe arrival of your kittens and very well done Baby :thumbup: Hope everything else goes smoothly for you both


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Liz like I said earlier . Nobody was advising to call International Rescue or charter a helimed helicopter to get the cats to a vet, the only suggestion made was to *CALL A VET* and that was never ridiculous or ludicrous, that is standard advice *GIVEN BY VETS* in these circumstances. And for you to start labeling this kind of advice with words like ludicrous is frankly yet another example of your irresponsible and chronically laid back advice.
> 
> As for your no need to feed newborn kittens for the first 24 hours advice, even with the use of the word probably at the beginning -- that is possibly THE most dangerous advice I have ever came across on this forum.


Perhaps you need to read posts more carefully before firing from both hips.

1. Aurelia was suggesting this lady should be calling the vet when the queen was happily curled up with her three recently born kittens. The queen was not in second stage labour!

2. With the survival for 24 hours I said that probably they would be alright if not fed, not that she should not feed them - I also said that I would feed mine in those circumstances. Don't forget with a novice (as the person with the blood type incompatability issue was) there is always a risk of getting formula into the kittens' lungs, causing almost certain death from pneumonia, and that has to be weighed against any danger of leaving them unfed. Since her queen was a pedigree I think we can assume that the kittens were born to a queen in good condition, probably not a situation that you are normally dealing with.

Perhaps you should stick to your area of experience and allow me to stick to mine.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Perhaps you need to read posts more carefully before firing from both hips.
> 
> 1. Aurelia was suggesting this lady should be calling the vet when the queen was happily curled up with her three recently born kittens. The queen was not in second stage labour!


Did you read it properly yourself Liz? Please do and then report back ... and don't forget to read the posts before I said that ... you know the ones where Kayla initially thought there was a kitten in the birth canal.



lizward said:


> 2. With the survival for 24 hours I said that probably they would be alright if not fed, not that she should not feed them - I also said that I would feed mine in those circumstances. Don't forget with a novice (as the person with the blood type incompatability issue was) there is always a risk of getting formula into the kittens' lungs, causing almost certain death from pneumonia, and that has to be weighed against any danger of leaving them unfed. Since her queen was a pedigree I think we can assume that the kittens were born to a queen in good condition, probably not a situation that you are normally dealing with.
> 
> Perhaps you should stick to your area of experience and allow me to stick to mine.
> 
> Liz


Liz don't be so ... <insert what ever you like here> ... TJEs advice is more relevant to Kayla, as she is not experienced (Kayla that is)! TJE would be more likely to come across a situation like Kayla's than you would ... well you would hope.

Now as I said before if you insist on carrying on to pick fault with the advice that was given in the small hours of this morning ... start a new thread. You're spoiling this for Kayla now. The one good part about this whole situation ... the miracle of birth, has been tarred because you are picking fault AGAIN. STOP!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Perhaps you need to read posts more carefully before firing from both hips.


No Liz, I think you need to learn to read! No one ever at any stage said anything except a call to the vet might be a good idea. This Aurelia fixation-thing you have Liz, it's beginning to sound unhealthy. You're doing your damndest to make it sound like Aurelia was running through the streets shouting "FIRE!", all that was advised was a phone call to a vet.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> With the survival for 24 hours I said that probably they would be alright if not fed, not that she should not feed them - I also said that I would feed mine in those circumstances.


Liz, if they ever make back-pedaling an Olympic sport.. you could win gold medals for the UK.

TaylorBaby, Havoc, BBM, Atlantys, David C, Soupie and myself all give similar advice on bottle feeding milk and/or colustrum for the first 24 hours, there was zero disagreement on the thread  then you came on with your little gem of I suspect they would probably be perfectly OK with nothing at all for 24 hours, newborns are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for"

Then BBM, Havoc and myself questioned that little gem (and the OP rejected it out of hand)

*Then, and only then,* did you come back to say wellll, actually, I wouldnt do it myself .

Please stop back pedalling, you gave advice that at best could be considered dodgey, and at worst could be down right dangerous.



lizward said:


> Perhaps you should stick to your area of experience and allow me to stick to mine.


Liz, when I see dishing out dodgey advice... I *will* call you on it. I don't give a damn how much on a expert you consider yourself, that doesn't mean the rest of us hold you in the same high esteem. When you give out dodgey or dangerous information on this forum, I WILL call you on that. If that doesn't suit you or offends you... feel free to PM the mods. I will never ignore your lax advice when it verges into the dangerous territory.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Did you read it properly yourself Liz? Please do and then report back ... and don't forget to read the posts before I said that ... you know the ones where Kayla initially thought there was a kitten in the birth canal.


She said something that could easily have given that impression, I grant you, and you said quite correctly that if there was a ktiten actually in the birth canal for more than ten minutes she should call a vet. There was nothing at all wrogn with the advice you gave up to then, and you were here in the early hours which was great. So far so good.

It's just that rather than then saying "O well then let her have a good sleep now" when you heard there was in fact no kitten in the birth canal, and all there was, was movement in the abdomen (which is likely to be just the uterus contracting down) you were still going on about calling the vet.

_However, I made no comment about your advice at all_ until you and BBM and Tje started objecting to every piece of advice I gave - AGAIN - and then starting all the personal stuff AGAIN. YOU are the ones that have taken over this thread and turned it into yet another "let's all bash Liz" thread. Can't you just give up for once?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> TaylorBaby, Havoc, BBM, Atlantys, David C, Soupie and myself all give similar advice on bottle feeding milk and/or colustrum for the first 24 hours, there was zero disagreement on the thread  then you came on with your little gem of I suspect they would probably be perfectly OK with nothing at all for 24 hours, newborns are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for"
> 
> Then BBM, Havoc and myself questioned that little gem (and the OP rejected it out of hand)
> 
> *Then, and only then,* did you come back to say wellll, actually, I wouldnt do it myself .


"I suspect they would probably be OK" - in the context of a series of posts about what to feed newborns - does not mean "this is what I suggest you do", it means "you really don't need to panic, they are not at death's door"

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I don't give a damn how much on a expert you consider yourself, that doesn't mean the rest of us hold you in the same high esteem.


Really? Gosh, I'm devastated :lol:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> "I suspect they would probably be OK" - in the context of a series of posts about what to feed newborns - does not mean "this is what I suggest you do", it means "you really don't need to panic, they are not at death's door"


back pedal till you're blue in the face Liz, I don't really mind. All I am sure about is: you spout potentially dangerous or dodgey advice... I will call you on it. :thumbsup:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> She said something that could easily have given that impression, I grant you, and you said quite correctly that if there was a ktiten actually in the birth canal for more than ten minutes she should call a vet. There was nothing at all wrogn with the advice you gave up to then, and you were here in the early hours which was great. So far so good.
> 
> It's just that rather than then saying "O well then let her have a good sleep now" when you heard there was in fact no kitten in the birth canal, and all there was, was movement in the abdomen (which is likely to be just the uterus contracting down) you were still going on about calling the vet.
> 
> _However, I made no comment about your advice at all_ until you and BBM and Tje started objecting to every piece of advice I gave - AGAIN - and then starting all the personal stuff AGAIN. YOU are the ones that have taken over this thread and turned it into yet another "let's all bash Liz" thread. Can't you just give up for once?


Liz, your advice is dangerous at times. I think you forget not everyone has 18+ years experience and is just having a brain fog moment with their birthing cat.

So you know for a fact Kayla is experience enough to know if the kitten was still in the birth canal, or had been sucked back in slightly or not? No you don't, you were not there, you can not know either way (sorry Kayla if that offends you).

The fact that on the surface you claim to have so many years experience is enough to convince most you know your eggs, is the reason why I linked to your thread. Which clearly demonstrates what could happen if someone were to take your advice. I felt it was important to do that, not just for Kayla, but also for anyone else out there who is panic stricken and frantically googling.

It infuriates me that your advice could (and there is a possibility already has) cost cats and kittens their lives, because someone out there trusted your lax advice, because you boast of your experience.

You know there is thread somewhere that clearly states vet nurses and the like are not to post medical advice, and that Veterinary care should be advised instead (or words to that effect). Mark himself posted it ... I believe what you are doing is just as bad, and you really really should stop.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> The fact that on the surface you claim to have so many years experience is enough to convince most you know your eggs, is the reason why I linked to your thread.


The dead kitten in that case was so dead it had rotted. Perhaps if I'd got to the vets an hour earlier it wouldn't have rotted. Shucks, I never realised that (rolls eyes)

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> You know there is thread somewhere that clearly states vet nurses and the like are not to post medical advice, and that Veterinary care should be advised instead (or words to that effect). Mark himself posted it ... I believe what you are doing is just as bad, and you really really should stop.


Does this also apply to those of you who were screaming so loudly that the OP's vet was wrong and that she should immediately find a vet prepared to spay in the last week of pregnancy? If it does, perhaps we can expect to see an end to any such suggestions.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> _However, I made no comment about your advice at all_ until you and BBM and Tje started objecting to every piece of advice I gave - AGAIN - and then starting all the personal stuff AGAIN. YOU are the ones that have taken over this thread and turned it into yet another "let's all bash Liz" thread. Can't you just give up for once?


Liz, you're loosing the plot... I never even replied until AFTER you started questioning BBM's advice and till after you had tried to dicredit Aurelia (AGAIN!!) for being a panic merchant for giving the advice to call a vet.

Sooooo Liz, if you stop trying to take the mickey out of people giving out perfectly sound advice, I will stop questioning you. As long as you continue to poo-poo sound advice.... I'll be right behind you setting the record straight. And don't forget either, you were the one who started the name calling when you called BillyBoysMummy a saremonger andme a panic merchant.

Liz, can you drop this now... or take it to PM????? PLEASE

This is ruining Mommyof2's thread. Please ..... drop it or PM, if not for my sake then for the poor woman whose cat has just had kittens.

Or start a new thread if you'd rather have it all out in the open.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> The dead kitten in that case was so dead it had rotted. Perhaps if I'd got to the vets an hour earlier it wouldn't have rotted. Shucks, I never realised that (rolls eyes)
> 
> Liz


ive just been reading that thread...and im totally shocked that you would leave a queen straining for 2 hours! sorry but thats just awful


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Does this also apply to those of you who were screaming so loudly that the OP's vet was wrong and that she should immediately find a vet prepared to spay in the last week of pregnancy? If it does, perhaps we can expect to see an end to any such suggestions.
> 
> Liz


oh crikey Liz... what are you trying to do... to turn this thread too back on to your pro-life stuff ???? We know you're pro-life/anti-abortion.... this thread has taken enough tangents already, please don't try to turn this too into another of your anti-abortion debates. Can you not just leave this thread and let Mummyof2 have her moment in the lime light with her litter of kittens... PLEASE!

if you want to discuss abortion,,, *please* make another thread.. this is NOT the time nor place.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> The dead kitten in that case was so dead it had rotted. Perhaps if I'd got to the vets an hour earlier it wouldn't have rotted. Shucks, I never realised that (rolls eyes)
> 
> Liz


Hmmm, now Liz you need to think a bit better before posting really.

Can you not see there is a world of difference between advising someone to seek another vet (at that stage it appeared to be worse than it was as well remember!) for advice. And telling someone their queen will be fine and to relax ... when the truth is it may not be the case, and the queen could have a decomposing kitten inside her?

Hmmm. come on Liz!

I echo what TJE has said. Please drop this or take it elsewhere.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

just want to say to the op congratulations on the babies they are adorable


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> just want to say to the op congratulations on the babies they are adorable


yeahhhh they are too!!!!!! (and so is your woof , I mean in your avatar)

let's hear it for Nouska's woof and Mommyof2's kittens and her new mummy Baby!!!! yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh :thumbup:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Tje said:


> yeahhhh they are too!!!!!! (and so is your woof , I mean in your avatar)
> 
> let's hear it for Nouska's woof and Mommyof2's kittens and her new mummy Baby!!!! yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh :thumbup:


:lol: thank you... think youve just made Inca(avatar dog lol) blush!

oh yeah i forgot to say Baby is absolutley Gorjus aswell:thumbup:


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Congratulations on your new arrivals OP! Glad everything went well and Baby coped well. 

On another note - I've decided to leave the forum. Personally, I'm sick of all the witch hunts. It really has become embarrasing to read and I really don't believe any of it is constructive in any way. I wish you all luck with your breeding / fostering endeavors.

Jo


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

sootisox said:


> Congratulations on your new arrivals OP! Glad everything went well and Baby coped well.
> 
> On another note - I've decided to leave the forum. Personally, I'm sick of all the witch hunts. It really has become embarrasing to read and I really don't believe any of it is constructive in any way. I wish you all luck with your breeding / fostering endeavors.
> 
> Jo


I'm sorry you feel that way hun


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Can you not see there is a world of difference between advising someone to seek another vet (at that stage it appeared to be worse than it was as well remember!) for advice. And telling someone their queen will be fine and to relax ... when the truth is it may not be the case, and the queen could have a decomposing kitten inside her?


A decomposing kitten is going to take longer to come out but isn't otherwise dangerous at that stage - the damage to the other kittens has already been done. Getting it out an hour earlier isn't going to make a lot of difference, alas.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> ive just been reading that thread...and im totally shocked that you would leave a queen straining for 2 hours! sorry but thats just awful


It's better to come out naturally than have the vet decide to do a caesarean that turns out to be unecessary, that's all.

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> It's better to come out naturally than have the vet decide to do a caesarean that turns out to be unecessary, that's all.
> 
> Liz


Have to say that My bengal was straining and I rushed to the vets in tears I could barely breathe i was so upset and panicing, they seemed very laidback about it all which upset me more BUT they did the right thing and didnt rush she had 1 oxy injection and gave birth to a big kitten, she had 2 more oxy injections and had all 6, one sadly stillborn but fully grown.

so if they had all rushed and/or bee an diff vet and opted for c-section right away it would have been unnecessary in my situation, so glad she didnt need a c-section although i still helped feed the kits, but i imagine it would have been ALOT harder if she did have it as it took her a good while to bond, although it was her first litter shes a top mummy now


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> Have to say that My bengal was straining and I rushed to the vets in tears I could barely breathe i was so upset and panicing, they seemed very laidback about it all which upset me more BUT they did the right thing and didnt rush she had 1 oxy injection and gave birth to a big kitten, she had 2 more oxy injections and had all 6, one sadly stillborn but fully grown.
> 
> so if they had all rushed and/or bee an diff vet and opted for c-section right away it would have been unnecessary in my situation, so glad she didnt need a c-section although i still helped feed the kits, but i imagine it would have been ALOT harder if she did have it as it took her a good while to bond, although it was her first litter shes a top mummy now


Wow, imagine what would have happened had you not got her to the vet  Doesn't bare thinking about does it?

Glad she made it through OK


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> It's better to come out naturally than have the vet decide to do a caesarean that turns out to be unecessary, that's all.
> 
> Liz


well im afraid i would still have had to let a vet check her out, i could never leave an animal straining to give birth like that ....my own dog suffered whelping complications and there was no way i would have left her suffering longer than necessary...at the end of the day we put them in that situation so its our responsibility to make sure they get the best possible care and suffer the least possible pain.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Wow, imagine what would have happened had you not got her to the vet  Doesn't bare thinking about does it?
> 
> Glad she made it through OK


Wouldnt of happened so no need to think about it, she probably would have died, but it wouldnt happen as I obviously too her to the vet.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> Wouldnt of happened so no need to think about it, she probably would have died, but it wouldnt happen as I obviously too her to the vet.


I know hun, that's my point.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

sootisox said:


> Congratulations on your new arrivals OP! Glad everything went well and Baby coped well.
> 
> On another note - I've decided to leave the forum. Personally, I'm sick of all the witch hunts. It really has become embarrasing to read and I really don't believe any of it is constructive in any way. I wish you all luck with your breeding / fostering endeavors.
> 
> Jo


I have to say i have been completely put right off the Cat Forums  Its like they were once before........

Another thread ruined by people who can't help themselves 

*well done Baby and Human mum* the babies and Baby are beautiful. I wish you all the best luck and health.

P.S I have wanted another Tortie/Calico for so so long! xx


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## francesandjon (Jun 3, 2009)

Congrats to feline mum and human mum.

Not a 'cat person' myself, but always nice to read about babies of any variety!

(I see the arguing/disagreements are widespread throughout the forum then )


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

You know, this is getting quite upsetting for me now  Seriously. I don't want to be classed as someone who is trouble making, or arguing for the sake of it.

There is a VERY good reason why I've said what I have. Plus, would any of you walk away if you saw someone being given advice that could potential end in the death of an animal?


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## francesandjon (Jun 3, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> You know, this is getting quite upsetting for me now  Seriously. I don't want to be classed as someone who is trouble making, or arguing for the sake of it.
> 
> There is a VERY good reason why I've said what I have. Plus, would any of you walk away if you saw someone being given advice that could potential end in the death of an animal?


I think us non-cat forum people (well, certainly me) can see who is respected and gives good advice, and you fall into that category.

I just find it frustating when people (not you) keep going on about the same things, even though everyone else is saying different.....(make sense?)


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I completely understand & thanks  xxx


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

ok new weights at 16 hours old is 
black/white 101gms 
black 97gms
tortie 97gms

no more kittens or labour im not sure what im feeling for in here belly as there is no movement i can feel like bubbles or something vet is coming in 4 hours he was called to C section on a great dane this morning and had complications with the C section so is running late


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm pretty sure that the OP does not wish this thread to be closed.

However if the personal insult etc, trading continues, then I'm afraid that IS what will happen. 

Do what you're all good at and that is helping people that need it.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

mummyxofx2 said:


> ok new weights at 16 hours old is
> black/white 101gms
> black 97gms
> tortie 97gms
> ...


those are pretty good weights  :thumbup:
Id only weigh them once a day now you knmow they are getting some milk as they can lose/gain in hours and itll only worry you!

I remember feeling something in my girls belly, was paranoid so took her to the vet day after the birth, plus she needed some oxy as milk wasnt coming out, they said she was fine, i think we worry too much sometimes!
poor great dane that must have been some op


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

she had a reaction to the anesthetis or something i think will try get full details when vet comes .... babys belly still rounded not as much thought cant feel nothing like movements like i could before birth so i think 3 is all.... i will weigh them either 2 times or 1 time a day, imm in love with the tortie i sit there watching them for hours hehe


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

awww only weigh them once a day same time say 8pm or something torties rock i have two


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Great news with the weights :thumbup:

I agree with Taylor here, try weighing once a day now, at the same time so you don't worry unnecessarily  You're looking for 15g+ gain a day ideally. But 10g is just about acceptable. If they lose any weight at all don't worry too much, unless it continues for a second day. If it does happen 2 days running speak to your vet first just in case it's a health problem, then if not there are plenty of things we can suggest.

Also if they gain less than 10g a day for more than a couple of days I'd also err on the side of caution and speak to your vet. Little babies can go down hill so fast, it's best to catch illness asap ... but then I'm sure you know that from breeding you dog 

Hope the vet check goes OK xx


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Great news with the weights :thumbup:
> 
> I agree with Taylor here, try weighing once a day now, at the same time so you don't worry unnecessarily  You're looking for 15g+ gain a day ideally. But 10g is just about acceptable. If they lose any weight at all don't worry too much, unless it continues for a second day. If it does happen 2 days running speak to your vet first just in case it's a health problem, then if not there are plenty of things we can suggest.
> 
> ...


thank you very much xx only about 40 minutes to go till hes here so will keep you all updated


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

That would be lovely 

Also, can I just say that I apologise for my part in taking your thread off track. I feel rotten for it, but I hope you understand my reasons why.

xxx


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Helloooo

sorry i wasnt around yesterday afternoon/evening! I was out at the bonfire with my kids and then had a date with bon jovi on tv 

How are they doing today? What did the vet say?


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

no more kittens inside so only 3 little ones he said they are gorgeous 1 boy 2 girls .... mum and babys all in good shape =)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Good, hope they all continue to do well.

Liz


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

That was one heck of a thread to read through!! 

Congrats on your litter they are looking gorgeous.

Keep us updated on how they're getting on.


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