# A date has been announced



## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

PM Confirms EU Referendum Will Be On 23 June

In or out, what will it be.?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Now we just need to try and work out what all the facts are and what affect each choice will have on us as a nation and what the big picture is - that will be difficult, to say the least.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> Now we just need to try and work out what all the facts are and what affect each choice will have on us as a nation and what the big picture is - that will be difficult, to say the least.


This! And I have no idea where to start, so far any information has been contradictory and confusing!!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Fleur said:


> This! And I have no idea where to start, so far any information has been contradictory and confusing!!


My initial decision is OUT and take back control of our own destiny, but that is based on very little knowledge of all the true facts and implications.

In this world of "spin" I'm not sure *how *we get to the truth


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> My initial decision is OUT and take back control of our own destiny, but that is based on very little knowledge of all the true facts and implications.
> 
> In this world of "spin" I'm not sure *how *we get to the truth


This is what worries me like you I initially thought "out" but I have no idea what the impact/benefits of leaving actually are????


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm sick to death of it already and we have 4 months to go  I shall vote to stay "IN" if they haven't driven me crazy by then.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I think concerns will be:
Import costs - will costs of "imported" european goods increase.. cars, food, wine, beer, industrial equipment for British manufacturers etc. 
Export costs, an increase in export costs to the EU; is this likely to affect financial revenue of exported goods..
What will happen to EU residents in the UK, will they be granted visas? will it force them back home and impact the skilled labour force (nurses, tradesmen, etc) - also how will it effect future labourforce in skills we lack internally and how will this affect our industry and healthcare systems.
I'm unsure it will, or can, have a positive impact on our economy an as such would lean towards an "IN" vote. But I need to see the facts.

An OUT vote, to me, feels like a kid demanding more independance from the parents. Sure the rules can be stupid sometimes, and seem pointless from the POV of the kid; but its still alot more comfortable to be under their rules than left to fend for themselves and wash their own dirty laundry


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

grumpy goby said:


> I think concerns will be:
> Import costs - will costs of "imported" european goods increase.. cars, food, wine, beer, industrial equipment for British manufacturers etc.
> Export costs, an increase in export costs to the EU; is this likely to affect financial revenue of exported goods..


But Britain can still be a member of the single market so the effect on trade won't be as substantial as some media outlets suggest. Yes we'd have to pay to be in it but it would be a damn site less than we plough into the monster now.

I vote out, if only to free the UK from the ridiculous human rights crap they continually stitch our courts up with.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

I have no idea which way I will vote. I cba doing my own research and the media has, so far, provided absolutely not one single shred of substatial information that could help me to decide; they have been too busy covering the smoke and mirrors pretend deal Cameron has deflected attention from the debate with.

I know it is an important decision but if no real information is forthcoming, I just won't bother to vote. I would rather not participate at all than make an uninformed decision.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

MilleD said:


> But Britain can still be a member of the single market so the effect on trade won't be as substantial as some media outlets suggest. Yes we'd have to pay to be in it but it would be a damn site less than we plough into the monster now.
> 
> I vote out, if only to free the UK from the ridiculous human rights crap they continually stitch our courts up with.


I dont watch TV at all, or read papers - very occasionally BBC news... so not really influenced by media outlets; they would just be my concern without seeing some proper/solid facts and figures on it.

They could sign up to the single market, or negotiate a trade levy - but before voting out I would want to see _comprehensive, _realistic and solid plans to move towards either of these options to ensure we aren't cutting our nose off to spite our face. We could vote out, and then the govt decide we go it alone and rely on the world market; who knows!
This was the issue with the Scottish Independent vote IMHO - they weren't clear enough in their intentions on some major issues should they achieve independence and it cost the vote.. I see the same apply.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

I bet Scotland are pretty happy they chose not to go it alone considering the oil prices at the mo.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Satori said:


> pretend deal


In a nutshell


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

My inclination at the moment is the same as @Lurcherlad and vote for out.
Reading some financial reports today it would seem that being out of the Union would be beneficial especially to savers which we these days. Our savings are supposed to support the pensions we get, but don't and we bite into capital regularly.
Whether I change my mind over the next few months remains to be seen. I remember what it was like before joining the EU and we seemed to trundle along quite nicely trading happily with other countries such as the U.S. and Australia etc.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

My gut reaction is out but I'm not up enough on the pros and cons. 

It's a different worry on exiting for NI as a whole. On the most basic reasons, crossing the border from ROI to UK and visa versa is little more than crossing the road now. You usually only know you've crossed when either the speed limit signs are in mph or kph and there's a bit of Gaelic thrown in. 
Will check points be reinstated? What happens to lucrative trade and border towns then?
Also, NI farmers rely heavily on EU subsidy as far as I'm aware. A local radio programme had politicians on, for and against exiting and the pro exit camp said we would be saving billions by leaving the EU but the pro EU politician retorted that George Osbourne certainly hasn't earmarked any of these 'billions' as going back to the farmers and it's a huge gamble. 
We need facts and not spin to make the choice. 

Emma thompsons less than helpful remarks about England being little more than a grey cake filled island do very little for the pro EU lobby, I doubt the man on the street cares a jot what a wealthy actress thinks.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Hmm yes, I'd forgotten about farmers and subsidies. I can't remember what farmers had before joining the EU.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Siskin said:


> Reading some financial reports today it would seem that being out of the Union would be beneficial especially to savers


Ooh, that's interesting. Could you point us in the direction of those reports? Thanks.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MilleD said:


> But Britain can still be a member of the single market so the effect on trade won't be as substantial as some media outlets suggest. Yes we'd have to pay to be in it but it would be a damn site less than we plough into the monster now.
> 
> I vote out, if only to free the UK from the ridiculous human rights crap they continually stitch our courts up with.


Yes, but ...
We would have to negotiate membership of the single market with the 27 countries we've just told to poke it, and who would not want to signal to any other EU members that it was easy to have your cake and eat it.

If we want full access to the single market - like Norway - we would have to abide by its rules, including free movement of labour, and paying fees. Norway is actually the 10th highest contributor to the EU coffers, and we're a lot bigger than they are ...

And the "human rights crap" isn't anything to do with the EU. That's the Human Rights Act passed in 1998 which enshrined the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law. The government have already been talking about repealing that and replacing it with a British Bill of Rights, but it isn't clear what human rights we would choose to ditch.

And the 'continuously' is putting it a bit strong. The latest figures I know were from 2013 (from memory!). There were 4000 odd deportations ordered, of which 1888 were appealed under the Human Rights Act, of which 185 were successful, which is less than 5%. I don't think any British Bill of Rights would reduce that 185 significantly unless we ditched human right completely, which might be seen as a dangerous precedent!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Satori said:


> Ooh, that's interesting. Could you point us in the direction of those reports? Thanks.


Check out anything that Neil Woodford is writing and, I hate to say, the reports about savers benefitting was in today's daily mail.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> We would have to negotiate membership of the single market with the 27 countries


Would we? Could we not just negotiate bi-lateral agreements with the more important countries or would their membership of the EU ban them from doing this?


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> My initial decision is OUT and take back control of our own destiny,


That's the way I'm thinking , unless something changes my mind.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Siskin said:


> Hmm yes, I'd forgotten about farmers and subsidies. I can't remember what farmers had before joining the EU.


Something to consider, but our government needs to back our farmers and stop the cheap imports which currently come in and undermine our farmers' profits. Milk, chicken, cereals, apples, etc. We can provide what we need in so many areas.

It's not just our farmers who are affected by cheap imports, either.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Something to consider, but our government needs to back our farmers and stop the cheap imports which currently come in and undermine our farmers' profits. Milk, chicken, cereals, apples, etc. We can provide what we need in so many areas.
> 
> It's not just our farmers who are affected by cheap imports, either.


I so agree. Would coming out of the EU affect this or is it up to our government to make supermarkets buy British? Can they not do that now? Where are the cheap imports coming from in the main? If they are from EU countries would the supermarkets have to pay an import tax therefore negating their cheapness.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm unsure what to vote atm, will need far more information before making a decision and I'm hoping more info will be available from both sides in the coming months.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Siskin said:


> I so agree. Would coming out of the EU affect this or is it up to our government to make supermarkets buy British? Can they not do that now? Where are the cheap imports coming from in the main? If they are from EU countries would the supermarkets have to pay an import tax therefore negating their cheapness.


I know a lot of chicken (especially in ready meals) comes from China! Not known for their high standards of animal welfare 

I think there should be restrictions on imports of things we can produce ourselves.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> I know a lot of chicken (especially in ready meals) comes from China! Not known for their high standards of animal welfare
> 
> I think there should be restrictions on imports of things we can produce ourselves.


Agree, again!

Actually what bothers me a lot about the EU is that it's accounts have never been signed off for all the years it's been running. Most auditors won't toucn the accounts because there is so much fiddling and misinformation in them.
I was a bookkeeper in a former life and find it unbelievable that there is so much taxpayers money going to the EU which is being spent here there and everywhere with no correct records being kept. 
I used to work in a bank years ago and in those days we weren't allowed to go home of an evening if the books didn't balance. We would be there all hours madly counting money until it was right.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't think it matters what we vote because I don't trust the feckers to tell the truth. I reckon it'll be 'a close run thing' with results coming in at 49% voting out & 51% voting in. Because all the high-up bods want to keep us in.

I have yet to meet anyone who voted for us to join the EEC but somehow there were enough yes votes to get us in!

The lying bar-stewards in govt will get what they want regardless of what we want.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MoggyBaby said:


> I don't think it matters what we vote because I don't trust the feckers to tell the truth. I reckon it'll be 'a close run thing' with results coming in at 49% voting out & 51% voting in. Because all the high-up bods want to keep us in.
> 
> I have yet to meet anyone who voted for us to join the EEC but somehow there were enough yes votes to get us in!
> 
> The lying bar-stewards in govt will get what they want regardless of what we want.


I must have voted, but for the life of me I have no idea whether I voted yes or no.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

MoggyBaby said:


> I don't think it matters what we vote because I don't trust the feckers to tell the truth.


I think the trouble is that there isn't one 'truth' as we don't know what will happen if we leave the EU. It's all speculation. On the one hand we will loose the automatic ability to trade with EU countries but on the other it may open up bigger free trade possibilities with countries outside (faster growing economies). On the one hand we will loose 'subsidies' ie; those paid out to farmers but on the other the high amounts of taxpayers money paid in to the EU will be saved so the Government will be able to pay their own subsidies.

No one can agree on whether there could be an 'amicable divorce' .... the Pro Europe Camp saying no one will deal/trade with us and the Leave Europe Camp saying we will be able to make our own trade agreements and probably be able to have our own Trading agreement with the EU . Like a number of other countries do.

Opening it up to a vote should certainly make it interesting .... and it may well go either way .....

J


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> I don't think it matters what we vote because I don't trust the feckers to tell the truth


Have to agree with you on that MoggyBaby. Will be very interesting to see the result,.I know they are not accurate but, whenever you read the polls done they are mostly in favour of coming out.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

As a brit living in Europe under eu rules I obviously would want Britain to stay in. I also wanted us to stay in even while i was still living in the UK, however i have recently become a little torn about it ideologically... If i think it's ideologically wrong for some fat cat toffs to sit in London deciding what rules should apply to people living in Manchester how can i rationally conclude that fat cat toffs sat in Brussels making decisions for the whole of Europe is ok? If too much power in any single place is a bad thing (as i believe) i should surely be against the eu, but I'd rather be in it than not (given that not being in it wouldn't actually be ridding us of governance completely).

Still i do hope people consider all the brits who are living in Europe and who will be affected if the uk leaves before they cast their votes.. Wonder if i still get to vote....

(also agree with moggybaby... Probably doesn't actually matter, they will do whatever they want to do anyway like they always do)


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Nothing would have given me greater pleasure than sticking two fingers up to Cameron & voting OUT. lol But I'm putting my trust in the Green Party and I'm going to vote to stay in the EU. As I know very little about the pro's & cons I am putting my faith in people who I trust - and thats the likes of Caroline Lucas, George Monbiot and so on. People who have dedicated their lives fighting for environmental & social justice.

To those of you who value the environment please read this by Jonathan Porritt http://www.jonathonporritt.com/blog/greener-obviously

& this by Caroline Lucas - https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/caroline-lucas/its-time-to-make-progressive-case-for-staying-in-eu

.


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## saffysmum (Feb 11, 2015)

My question is, If we vote to leave the EU, does that free us from the squit that is the TTIP deal..?'  I really don't have any faith in any of the news outlets to inform us, the Great British Public, of anything that will be of any use. You will have one set of media scaremongering for the pro camp, and another set scaremongering for the against camp.
The thing that worries me, is that we are being asked to make a decision with no information on the consequences of making that vote.


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

saffysmum said:


> The thing that worries me, is that we are being asked to make a decision with no information on the consequences of making that vote.


Exactly this!

We were saying last night that without correct unbiased information it's hard for even semi intelligent people to know the pros and cons.

OH said it will just take a campaign from The Sun to state cheaper booze/****/chocolate/whatever and the majority of less educated (or whatever word you'd like to use) will follow The Sun and vote accordingly.

I've always thought out - purely because I don't feel someone else should be dictating to us and we managed perfectly well before .... But then I don't know enough about the downside to leaving if I'm honest.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Honeys mum said:


> Will be very interesting to see the result,.I know they are not accurate but, whenever you read the polls done they are mostly in favour of coming out.


People tend to say what they think in the polls leading up to such votes but then tend to panic and vote with what they consider the safest option ...like the Scottish Referendum. A lot of people will be talking freely about being in favour of leaving the EU but when it comes to it, it's a massive step into the unknown and *no one *knows whether the UK would be better or worse off. The politicians are just making guesses .... informed guesses and opinions ..... but still guesses.

I suspect we will hear the word 'safer' used quite a bit in conjunction with the Stay In campaign.

And no, I haven't decided yet.

J


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

saffysmum said:


> My question is, If we vote to leave the EU, does that free us from the squit that is the TTIP deal..?'


TTIP is a wonderful idea. I cannot think of one single bad thing about it tbh, but to answer your question....

TTIP has absolutely no chance of happening. It cannot possibly be passed since it would require every EU member state to ratify it and the differences between them are just too vast.

Outside of the EU however, the UK could draw up a similar bi-lateral agreement to TTIP with the U.S. This too could be difficult to achieve as petty small-minded people whinge about the access to the NHS in the UK and to NYSE in the U.S. However, it would be at least a possibility to get a deal if we were to leave the EU.


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## saffysmum (Feb 11, 2015)

Westie Mum said:


> Exactly this!
> 
> We were saying last night that without correct unbiased information it's hard for even semi intelligent people to know the pros and cons.
> 
> OH said it will just take a campaign from The Sun to state cheaper booze/****/chocolate/whatever and the majority of less educated (or whatever word you'd like to use) will follow The Sun and vote accordingly.....


I fear that it will be decided either by the group aforementioned, or the ones in power... :Banghead
Those of us in the middle, the ones that want more information to make a decision based on realities and consequences that will affect the whole country; we will be the ones to suffer the most.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I am in the undecided camp. 

On one hand I believe the amount of money with send over to the EU is inproportionate, and bailing out Euro countries, when we are not in the Euro, I think is wrong.

However on the other hand the EU is (I think) the largest market out there so to have access to it is good economy wise, the argument to that is often said that we can negotiate trade deals, like Norway for example. However we then have to accept the rules, without being able to make change as we can't sit at the table so to speak. 

Lots of pros and cons but I think people do have to think about it, because I fear people will just vote to leave because "they hate the EU" without thinking of the outcome. 

The choice we make here has the potential to affect generations.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

When you see reports like this, and I suspect this is possibly the first of a few more, then it really does make me feel that the UK is considered the Golden Goose to other EU countries. This is why so many want out. Time to look after our own people first.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ameron-failed-crackdown-migrant-benefits.html


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Six of Cameron's ministers have very publicly come out as wanting to leave, they aren't towing the party line, why? And why is Cameron almost on his knees begging for us to vote to stay in, wasn't he anti eu at one stage? What is the worst possible outcome of leaving, does anyone really know?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

saffysmum said:


> My question is, If we vote to leave the EU, does that free us from the squit that is the TTIP deal..?'  I really don't have any faith in any of the news outlets to inform us, the Great British Public, of anything that will be of any use. You will have one set of media scaremongering for the pro camp, and another set scaremongering for the against camp.
> The thing that worries me, is that we are being asked to make a decision with no information on the consequences of making that vote.


Here is what Caroline Lucas says about TTIP.

*TTIP - A taste of things to come if Britain was to go it alone*
One cause for scepticism is the transatlantic trade deal, TTIP. This epitomises everything that's wrong with the EU - and with neoliberal politics in general. Back room decisions, handing power to corporations, and threats to our rights at work and public services.

But those who hope that leaving the EU would make Britain's trade policy fairer are, to be frank, fooling themselves. The UK has already signed a number of bilateral deals that subject both sides to the dreaded investor state dispute mechanisms (ISDS) which allows companies to sue states for risking their 'future profits'.

Indeed the Tory Government is a major driving force for TTIP - and David Cameron is one of the deal's top cheerleaders. With MEPs and German MPs able to access TTIP documents, the buck stops with UK Ministers for the shameful situation that politicians in Westminster cannot.

If we left the EU, then we could be left with what pro-Brexit MPs describe as the 'WTO Option'. What then? Well if recent trade deals are anything to go by, and with the Tories still in charge, we could then expect the roll out of multiple TTIPs on steroids as Britain negotiated trade deals with countries across the world.

Mounting pressure from citizens, campaigners and progressive politicians across Europe has successfully forced the EU to open up TTIP to more scrutiny. Eventually, our MEPs will vote on the final deal. If we want to stop the rot of damaging trade deals, it's our responsibility to make sure our elected representatives know that they will not get away with waving TTIP through.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

As I said up to now I'm voting to stay in, and as much as I can't stand David I with him so far, I've not heard anything to change my mind.


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## saffysmum (Feb 11, 2015)

So effectively then Noushka, the answer is we're kinda stuck with it in one form or another...


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> When you see reports like this, and I suspect this is possibly the first of a few more, then it really does make me feel that the UK is considered the Golden Goose to other EU countries. This is why so many want out. Time to look after our own people first.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ameron-failed-crackdown-migrant-benefits.html


When you read the daily mail and form opinions based on the propaganda printed therein then it is no wonder you start saying nationalistic bs such as that. Same bs which nationalists and those who allow themselves to be influenced by nationalist media say in all countries accross Europe. No, Britain isn't a golden Goose, there are many countries with higher benefits, and it isn't as desirable a destination as the daily fail would have you believe. "look after our own people" - that statement is pretty gross to me. Don't tell me you are really buying into this daily fail crap? I would've expected to read such a post from cb, but was surprised to read it from you


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

^ I don't get this disgraceful focus on migrant benefits at all. It is completely irrelevant and the silly handbrake deal is illegal anyway.

The fact is that in the UK the state pays a proportion of the wages of people in low paid employments. It's unfortunate but that's the system. Can we really be passing into law in the UK in 2016 a rule that says people get paid different salaries for doing identical jobs based on their nationality? What next; different seats on the bus? Disgusted.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I agree with the child benefits been it is leveled to the same as country the child lives in.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

In Out In Out, Shake it all about ! 
I voted No last time and I expect it will be a No from me again. 
I'm past caring really, its up to the younger ones to vote for their future .


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## marasmum (Jun 12, 2013)

And Boris says 'out'. Let the circus begin.....


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

marasmum said:


> And Boris says 'out'. Let the circus begin.....


Interesting.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Boris Johnson backs Brexit in EU referendum - only confirming with David Cameron via text minutes before TV announcement - live - Telegraph

The latest news, whether you like him or not, IMO that is good news.


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

I love Boris !!


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

porps said:


> When you read the daily mail and form opinions based on the propaganda printed therein then it is no wonder you start saying nationalistic bs such as that. Same bs which nationalists and those who allow themselves to be influenced by nationalist media say in all countries accross Europe. No, Britain isn't a golden Goose, there are many countries with higher benefits, and it isn't as desirable a destination as the daily fail would have you believe. "look after our own people" - that statement is pretty gross to me. Don't tell me you are really buying into this daily fail crap? I would've expected to read such a post from cb, but was surprised to read it from you


I don't need the Daily Mail to tell me what to think thank you. The fact that Poland, Hungary et al voted so vehemently against Camerons requests speaks volumes. And for the Polish PM to 'allegedly' state to have been victorious over Cameron... Well you can think what you like, I know how that reads to me.

Looking after our own people - the farmers in this country would benefit far more from the money we pour into the EU on a daily basis so yes, looking after our own people.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Westie Mum said:


> I love Boris !!


Me too. The GBP/USD pair reversed short term trend and is back down below 1.43 overnight. Kerching!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

What happens to Gibraltar?
It's economy might collapse hence people would be forced to go back to UK...
What will happen with Scotland?

Will UK split?

What kind of trade deal with EU England will get? 
Better than now?

Will Brexit collapse the EU?

Saying that...I am very aware that UK got very raw deal from EU...so did Gibraltar with constant harrassment etc...


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> What will happen with Scotland?
> 
> Will UK split?


Nicola Sturgeon said clearly on Sunday that if the UK votes 'out', she will demand another referendum on Scottish membership of the UK. The question will be whether would Boris allow her to have one. I suspect he would. So we either lose Scotland or the Scottish people wake up to the oil price situation and it is end of career for that cackling harpie and we lose Nicola. Hmmmm. I think I am leaning towards an 'out' vote .


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

MoggyBaby said:


> Looking after our own people - the farmers in this country would benefit far more from the money we pour into the EU on a daily basis so yes, looking after our own people.


You really think so, with this government.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Bloody emigrants! goin over there.. taking their jobs... time we started looking after our own!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Whatever the outcome , I'm glad there will be a referendum because we signed up to a Common Market and we've become a member of the European Union by stealth. We should have the right to chose Yay or Nay to continue to wherever the European Union is heading.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Whatever the outcome , I'm glad there will be a referendum because we signed up to a Common Market and we've become a member of the European Union by stealth. We should have the right to chose Yay or Nay to continue to wherever the European Union is heading.


I too support the idea of a referendum in principle. However, I dislike the idea of people having to make such a big decision who are not adequately informed to do so. I only hope that there will be a lot of media coverage of the pros and cons of membership along with expert, unbiased, analysis of the likely 'out' scenarios. So far, we have just had spin from both sides.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

saffysmum said:


> So effectively then Noushka, the answer is we're kinda stuck with it in one form or another...


While this government are the greatest champions of TTIP, its looking that way. :/ TTIP was the main reason I initially considered voting out. It absolutely terrifies me. However, having listened to those I trust I've been swayed into thinking we have a better chance of fighting the deal collectively with the rest of Europe.

This is a good article on why voting out wont save us from TTIP & why we can only save ourselves as part of an EU wide movement -
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html

And the article by George Monbiot on why hes voting in. (it was George who broke the TTIP story to the MSM) "_*I'm starting to hate the EU. But I will vote to stay in" http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html*_


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Hope I don't get lynched for posting this meme but it is a funny one lol (well, I think it is)


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> You really think so, with this government.


Point taken!!! The only folks this govt look after is their high-powered chums and themselves.

Thank feck I didn't vote for them. At least I can loathe them with a clear conscience!!


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## StrawberryBlonde (May 27, 2015)

I've always thought id vote to stay IN...but I think I'm swaying a bit! Its just so hard to find reputable sources of info, theres so much anti-immigrant propaganda cropping up on my FB & it worries me that people don't question it or the source! I dont trust the majority of what I read so I'll do my best to keep my finger on the pulse without losing my mind lol!


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

StrawberryBlonde said:


> I've always thought id vote to stay IN...but I think I'm swaying a bit! Its just so hard to find reputable sources of info, theres so much anti-immigrant propaganda cropping up on my FB & it worries me that people don't question it or the source! I dont trust the majority of what I read so I'll do my best to keep my finger on the pulse without losing my mind lol!


At this time, I am in the 'OUT' camp. I want the 'innies' to provide good reasons that would convince me on why being 'IN' is the better option. That said, I also want to read proper and intelligent facts from the 'outties' too so that I know the choice I am making is an informed one.

The problems we face is that this IS the UK and scare-mongering and spin are more likely to be what we will get rather than good, honest, nae messing, 'this-is-how-it-is, information that gives the pros & cons for each option in a coherent, knowledgeable and understandable manner.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm the same as you @MoggyBaby, out until something convinces me otherwise.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

They don't seem to be able to come up with an answer as to why we should stay in, which should be the easiest to answer, they can only scare monger about us leaving.................why?


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

I find it hard to believe that one of the top ten economies on the entire planet, with a language that is spoken or at least understood pretty much globally has a leader that would have us believe we can't go it alone. I heard someone saying today that it was in The Times (they have a paywall thing so can't verify) that allegedly the Dutch are making noises about holding their own in/out referendum, so it's not just us that that thinks maybe the ship is sinking? 
How refreshing it would be to see Cameron telling us about the things that make the UK great instead of every horror story scenario being peddled as 'this will happen if we leave the EU and they will never take us back'. 
Nicola Sturgeon would have found another way to rally for Scottish independance, does she speak for the whole of Scotland as being pro EU? I very much doubt it.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rona said:


> they can only scare monger about us leaving.................why?


I know, that's all I'm reading at the moment .... the world as we know it will end on June 23rd if the UK vote to leave 

And I suspect that this is why they need to keep us scared ....

Quote ITV News Editor ;

*"Two thirds of the British public consider themselves Eurosceptic - but it is unlikely they will vote to leave the EU, a new report has revealed.

Data from NatCen's latest British Attitudes Survey found 65% either wanted to leave the Union or wanted the EU's powers to be reduced (43%).

Even in Scotland, which is often considered more pro-European than the rest of Britain, Eurosceptics are in the majority with 43% wanting the EU's powers reduced and 17% wanting a Brexit.

But despite the highest level of Euroscepticism since 1992, when given a straight choice, 60% think Britain should continue to stay in the EU.

"For scepticism to translate into support for withdrawal, voters also need to be convinced of the economic case for leaving. And at present most are not," the report said."
*
I'm really not convinced by these 'letters' either, the first one from business leaders and the second one from 'military chiefs' stating that the country will be worse off out. They are designed to make you think they have been written voluntarily when in actuality both these letters have been co ordinated (organised) by David Cameron/Number 10 and contain many crony names.

I already feel :Arghh and it's four months to go yet ........

J


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I know, that's all I'm reading at the moment .... the world as we know it will end on June 23rd if the UK vote to leave
> 
> And I suspect that this is why they need to keep us scared ....


Fear is very powerful. Much easier to stay with what you know, they are working hard on the theory that the majority fear change. Lets face it, the majority have never known anything else


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Personally, I couldn't give a tinkers cuss for the scare tactics shoved down our throats by people that don't represent me or anybody I know. Why in gods name would I take as fact nonsense coming from people who aren't the average joe, working to keep a roof over their heads day after day, waiting for months to get a hospital appointment, possibly only manage a 'foreign' holiday a few times in their entire life time (I still need to use my passport to go France, Spain etc as it is, that's not going to change) and haven't a penny of savings to their name. 
Apparently the cost of things will shoot up if we leave, really? It's supply and demand, I doubt much will have changed from I did business studies at gcse, if people can't afford it, they don't buy it, simples. 
I have a dread feeling that we are being told we have a choice whether we stay in or not when in fact it will be an in by fair means or foul.
A cursory glance around other forums and bits of the net show many, many people, from all walks of life want out yet this isn't what we are seeing in mainstream media.


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## saffysmum (Feb 11, 2015)

As I said earlier in the discussion, this referendum will be decided by the easily led readers and believers of the 'popular' press. 
Even the BBC is no longer neutral, so we won't even get the whole story there.. :Banghead


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Obvious reasons to stay: freedom of movement in EU...can work or study or visit..health care education etc...
Scotland stays.
Gibraltar safe.
2.2 Brits emigrants in EU stay where they chose to be.
You have more say in Brussels.
You have free access to EU single markets.

Immigration from non EU will possibly be the same in or out.

Those are reasons that stand to reason propaganda or not.

@MoggyBaby you might vote out..but then Scotland will have next referendum and separates from England just to go back into EU!

So what is your point?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

A quick question for those who are probably voting 'Out' ... Do you want us to leave the EU _and_ the EEA or just the EU?


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

I seem to remember the same fear mongering regarding trade losses and huge unemployment being bandied about with the subject of us joining the Euro years ago.Mostly by that purveyor of peace in the world....Blair.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> A quick question for those who are probably voting 'Out' ... Do you want us to leave the EU _and_ the EEA or just the EU?


Both! I've finally decided and I will be voting 'out'. Whether we re-join the EEA as none-EU members will be part of the transition negotiation. I firmly hope that we do not stay within the EEA in that scenario since that would be blatantly cheating the public who voted 'out' obviously wanting us to leave both. This is one reason why, in the event of an 'out' vote, Cameron had better stand down in favour of someone who would actually represent our interests in the transition.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Boris as PM and Donald in White House...life likes comedy....


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> Both! I've finally decided and I will be voting 'out'. Whether we re-join the EEA as none-EU members will be part of the transition negotiation. I firmly hope that we do not stay within the EEA in that scenario since that would be blatantly cheating the public who voted 'out' obviously wanting us to leave both. This is one reason why, in the event of an 'out' vote, Cameron had better stand down in favour of someone who would actually represent our interests in the transition.


The interesting thing is that the question on the ballot paper doesn't mention the EEA at all. It just asks us if we want to remain in,or leave, the EU. Perhaps they'll have another referendum on that.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Boris as PM and Donald in White House...life likes comedy....


Corbyn and Trump would be spy/war movie


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> Boris as PM and Donald in White House...life likes comedy....


More like a nightmare than a comedy. Imagine these two morons running the world? God help us.



rona said:


> Corbyn and Trump would be spy/war movie


Tory Peter Oborne & world renowned John Pilger (who, lets face it, knows more than most on foreign policy). The world would be a far safer place with the likes of Corbyn & Bernie Sanders at the helm.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> The interesting thing is that the question on the ballot paper doesn't mention the EEA at all. It just asks us if we want to remain in,or leave, the EU. Perhaps they'll have another referendum on that.


The ballot paper would have to be a thousand pages long to get input into the terms of the exit unfortunately.

The terms of exit are not set out in the treaties, only a vague process for exit that has never been tested (Greenland was different). So, an out vote means ony one thing. It means that a two year negotiation process starts at the end of which a new treaty will be written and new English laws will be passed.

At the end of the two year period the UK could be a fully independent country. It could also be in EXACTLY the same position as we are today but just with a theoretical 'out' label. It could mean ANYTHING in between.

In that sense Boris was right in the first place. The real EU negotiation starts with an out vote. That's all we are being asked to vote on and nothing else.

I wish you were right in suggesting we might have another referendum. In practise the government of the day will get to decide. We will get a very different 'out'come depending on who bats for the UK in the negotiatition.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

For those with the appetite, I am finding this site full of interest
http://www.freshfields.com/en/global/Britain_and_the_EU/Links/?LangType=2057

It is written from a business perspective, considering the impact of an exit, and the subject specific bits about "what should I be thinking about now?" show the amount of work that will have to happen to make it all join up after an out decision, both within businesses and at government/national and European levels. There are a heck of a lot of questions in there and it won't be a cheap option for sure.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> More like a nightmare than a comedy. Imagine these two morons running the world? God help us.
> 
> Tory Peter Oborne & world renowned John Pilger (who, lets face it, knows more than most on foreign policy). The world would be a far safer place with the likes of Corbyn & Bernie Sanders at the helm.


If Corbyn's expertise on Foreign Affairs is to be judged by what he saidD about Falklands and Gibraltar then I rather had Donald or Boris at the helm...
Trumped and Corbyn together at one table? With their usual facial expressions?
The only caption that comes to my mind is " Who trumped"....

If Cobyn has the same respect for wishes of the people as he has for wishes if Gibraltarians then all that he says is spewing spin.
Not a man I could trust more than Miliband ..


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

UK to splash out £1BN on welfare for EU migrants | Politics | News | Daily Express

Maybe another reason to help us decide in or out.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> If Corbyn's expertise on Foreign Affairs is to be judged by what he saidD about Falklands and Gibraltar then I rather had Donald or Boris at the helm...
> Trumped and Corbyn together at one table? With their usual facial expressions?
> The only caption that comes to my mind is " Who trumped"....
> 
> ...


No they judged him on his actions Cheeky - he voted against intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya. And he has been proved to be bang on correct. Corbyn isn't a warmonger, he believes in negotiation where possible. If the neocon warmongers had not got involved in destroying the middle east we wouldn't be living in such a dangerous,destabilised world with the exodus of refugees we are seeing today. These are the consequences of our actions. We are reaping what we have sowed.

I do understand your worry xx, but Corbyn believes in negotiation & democracy. So I don't think he would do anything rash regarding Gibraltar or the Falklands. And if Trump & Boris succeed there might not be a Gibraltar or much else to worry about, come to that 

Trump & Boris are neocons (and neoliberalism ideology = endless wars)- If Trump is elected President he will be given the the nuclear codes - including Trident!. And unlike Corbyn, Boris would never stand in Trumps way. WW3 here we come.

Just to lighten the mood a bit. I saw this on twitter & made me laugh Thousands have RT'd it lol

*2016: No way will Trump win the election

2017: No way will President Trump fire all those nukes

2018: No way we're doing what those Apes say*

hahaa



Honeys mum said:


> UK to splash out £1BN on welfare for EU migrants | Politics | News | Daily Express
> 
> Maybe another reason to help us decide in or out.


This is ALL l have seen of the OUT campaign lol Their whole argument seems to be framed around migrants/immigration  As if those who have the least & NO power at all are responsible for everything that is going wrong with this country.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> No they judged him on his actions Cheeky - he voted against intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya. And he has been proved to be bang on correct. Corbyn isn't a warmonger, he believes in negotiation where possible. If the neocon warmongers had not got involved in destroying the middle east we wouldn't be living in such a dangerous,destabilised world with the exodus of refugees we are seeing today. These are the consequences of our actions. We are reaping what we have sowed.
> 
> I do understand your worry xx, but Corbyn believes in negotiation & democracy. So I don't think he would do anything rash regarding Gibraltar or the Falklands. And if Trump & Boris succeed there might not be a Gibraltar or much else to worry about, come to that
> 
> ...


With Spain there is nothing to negotiate . Our sovereignty is not negotiable.
They condemn colonies? What about Ceuta , Melilla and score of others?
Do not trust Corbyn. Do not like Trumped.
Boris is better where he is now.
I see many wrong things with EU.
Mostly that Germany very much do what they want and how they want.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Hmm yes, I'd forgotten about farmers and subsidies. I can't remember what farmers had before joining the EU.


We've only been farming last few years, so only known being in EU ( my Grandpa would have been before that, but not a subject that ever came up). We always get a certain amount in grant, which then undergoes EU "adjustment " down to less money.
Also, it seems when new rules are made each country decides over what time frame to implement them. So UK normally has higher welfare standards, and brings in new rules over quicker time. When a deadline is set ( eg ban on battery eggs from 1st Jan 2012), not everyone complies. For battery hens, 13 member states are in breach of the directive: 
Hungary
Italy
Latvia
Spain
Greece
Belgium
Bulgaria
Cyprus
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Netherlands.

Cheap imports of illegally produced eggs and egg products put compliant British farmers at risk of going out of business. Not personally as not my field ( excuse pun), but it's the same for other things. We keep the rules, then get punished for playing fair.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/503830/54538_EU_Series_No2_Print_ready.pdf

It say it's 28pages but with all the blank pages, pointless print and repetitiveness it's more like 12 pages long.

I do wish they had stuck to facts rather than scaremongering 

The people that want to know the facts will not vote because knowledge has been withheld and those in fear will vote to stay in.....................Bloody farce this is going to be


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

rona said:


> ....Bloody farce this is going to be


Totally agree with you Rona about that.
We know how we will be voting, and we don't need anyone to tell us how we should or how we shouldn't vote.
We have already made that decision ourelves., without any help from anyone.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/503830/54538_EU_Series_No2_Print_ready.pdf
> 
> It say it's 28pages but with all the blank pages, pointless print and repetitiveness it's more like 12 pages long.
> 
> ...


Aaaaaaarrrgghhhh!!!!!

This is typical of the bullsh1t lies and scaremongering that the 'in' proponents are spewing. Shocked that our government machinery should be used to generate biased propaganda like this. The paper reads like a guardian column rather than an official gov publication.

If Cameron really thinks it will take 10 years to achieve a bad result he should just feck off and let a leader take over who would approach the negotiations with confidence and competence.

Even if a bunch of morons handle the out negotiation and we are still spinning our wheels after two years it won't be the end of the world. Trade will continue under WTO rules which make it difficult, if not impossible, to erect trade barriers that do not currently exist. The rights of EU migrants who are currently resident in another EU country will be protected by international law as vested rights. The world will continue to revolve etc....


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Possibly though pound will fall...to level with euro..or so City says ..
If anything would send expats packing and make travels more difficult....

On plus side cheap pound means homegrown comparatively cheaper?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Possibly though pound will fall...to level with euro..or so City says ..
> If anything would send expats packing and make travels more difficult....
> 
> On plus side cheap pound means homegrown comparatively cheaper?


Oh I hope so. Pound/Dollar stabilising at 1.3 or below. Please Santa; I'll be a good boy all year.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Saw this today:

"we will be resigning membership of a political institution, not declaring war on it ............the idea that Britain will instantly collapse is frankly silly"

I tend to agree.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

My problem with this one is it's based on both sides claiming what could happen, and like most people I'm not an economist so don't know if there's any truth it it or just scaremongering. I'm swaying towards out, not least for the sheer amount of money it costs us to remain part of the EU. It was started so countries of roughly equal wealth could trade freely, not prop up basket case economies like Greece and flood the market with cheap foreign labour that drives down wages


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

What confuses me is that just a few months ago Cameron was deep in negotiation with the EU to secure a 'better' agreement selling us, the electorate, the ideal that the UK had some kind of standing in the EU with the power to negotiate a deal (don't worry, we didn't believe him lol) and then we get the referendum date and suddenly the very same David Cameron is telling us that the UK is nothing without the EU that we could not stand alone, that we have no trading power, that no one will want to work with us, that the city will collapse etc etc etc ...

And now this has been so publicly stated ...that the UKs own government thinks the UK can't stand alone and needs the EU we will have even less bargaining power to negotiate any deal within or I suspect even be listened to, in fact, should the vote be to stay we are quite simply a bit of a laughing stock.

Can you really imagine Germany sobbing into their hankies saying we are a useless country, we can't manage without the EU 

State a case for and state a case against and stop this histrionics.

J


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> With Spain there is nothing to negotiate . Our sovereignty is not negotiable.
> They condemn colonies? What about Ceuta , Melilla and score of others?
> Do not trust Corbyn. Do not like Trumped.
> Boris is better where he is now.
> ...


I wasn't actually meaning negotiate your sovereignty Cheeky. He wants even ordinary labour party members(like my hubby) to have a voice within the party. Because he believes in a true democracy. So as I feel most people want Gibraltar left as it is, whatever Corbyn's personal views are he would go with the majority 

There are many things wrong with the EU. But as climate change is the greatest threat we face, I fear if we leave we will be left in the hands of hard right wingers who are dangerous climate change deniers. I fear those left running the country will be even worse for our natural world, if that's possible!

This is a great video with Caroline Lucas outlining some of the things the EU has done for us. (love the way she slaps down Farage's Little Englandism at the end lol)


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> whatever Corbyn's personal views are he would go with the majority


...like with Trident for example.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> I wasn't actually meaning negotiate your sovereignty Cheeky. He wants even ordinary labour party members(like my hubby) to have a voice within the party. Because he believes in a true democracy. So as I feel most people want Gibraltar left as it is, whatever Corbyn's personal views are he would go with the majority
> 
> There are many things wrong with the EU. But as climate change is the greatest threat we face, I fear if we leave we will be left in the hands of hard right wingers who are dangerous climate change deniers. I fear those left running the country will be even worse for our natural world, if that's possible!
> 
> This is a great video with Caroline Lucas outlining some of the things the EU has done for us. (love the way she slaps down Farage's Little Englandism at the end lol)


Meanwhile: Investors pulled out and project of new marina on East Side and new housing estate fell through. That is 20mln pounds loss of our gov
Means jobs lost and no money. As a result gov my son's op was cancelled. I cannot find work neither in my area or any as people being laid off.
So things are happening already. Another gaming company moves to Philippines.
Gov refused any help with finding place or funds for street cat sanctuary.
We have many more abandoned kitties which are clearly not ferals and no takers..
Domino effect.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> ...like with Trident for example.


LOL Well like Corbyn, I really hope a majority wouldn't vote in favour of nuclear armageddon



cheekyscrip said:


> Meanwhile: Investors pulled out and project of new marina on East Side and new housing estate fell through. That is 20mln pounds loss of our gov
> Means jobs lost and no money. As a result gov my son's op was cancelled. I cannot find work neither in my area or any as people being laid off.
> So things are happening already. Another gaming company moves to Philippines.
> Gov refused any help with finding place or funds for street cat sanctuary.
> ...


Am I missing something?. Are you saying this is Corbyns fault? Sorry if I'm being dense.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> LOL Well like Corbyn, I really hope a majority wouldn't vote in favour of nuclear armageddon
> 
> Am I missing something?. Are you saying this is Corbyns fault? Sorry if I'm being dense.


No. Saying that the possibility of Brexit already gave investors cold feet and we have recession before even the voting took place ...
And it already hit animal welfare projects I am involved in. 
So it goes back to OP.

Unfortunately Labour lost the election by very much their fault. Miliband!!!!
Just cannot see Corbyn as any more appealing. Sorry.
I am far away and that is how it looks like from distance.
Last Labour leader who had my trust was Gordon Brown.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> No. Saying that the possibility of Brexit already gave investors cold feet and we have recession before even the voting took place ...
> And it already hit animal welfare projects I am involved in.
> So it goes back to OP.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying. I'm sorry to hear the talk of brexit has hit you so hard over there. Hope your Son gets his op very soon & things settle down & pick up for the animals & jobs.

Its austerity & dreadful policies destroying lives over here. My hubby finds out a week on tuesday whether the foundry he works at will be closing. Its looking like he'll be back on the scrap heap soon. Happy days lol

Anyhow, I'm voting 'in'. Not because I trust a word that pathological liar Cameron says! But because I've yet to find an environmentalist or Green NGO that thinks our environment will be better off outside the EU. I think its going to be a very close run thing. Most people I've spoken to are going to vote out.

I agree Labour didn't run a good election campaign. They didn't offer a clear alternative to the tories - New labour were just a more humane version of the conservative party. But tbf the msm were extremely bias in favour of the tory party & they rarely held coalition ministers to account. Had the public known half - about the dismantling of our NHS, or the truth about the economy & so on, things might have been different. Who knows. And another thing - the tories committed electoral fraud in the run up to the election.Look at this! - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-te...g-pressure-over-7476231#ICID=sharebar_twitter They cheated to win seats. So there are other factors to consider why Labour did so badly in the election.

Despite Corbyn being a decent & principled man, the right wing media (even the Blairites in his own party) are crucifying him at every opportunity. So I really don't see him ever becoming PM. You don't have to worry on that score. But you & Jezza do want the same outcome on the referendum - at least you've got that in common! lol


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I'm sorry to hear the talk of brexit has hit you so hard over there. Hope your Son gets his op very soon & things settle down & pick up for the animals & jobs.
> 
> Its austerity & dreadful policies destroying lives over here. My hubby finds out a week on tuesday whether the foundry he works at will be closing. Its looking like he'll be back on the scrap heap soon. Happy days lol
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your OH. Yes. Spain already announced they will close frontier...and maybe offer their workers permits!
To what jobs if our economy collapses?
People are thick ...how can they believe PP? The frankists!!
but today our Save Gibraltar Street Cats charity held flag day and my tin was really heavy!!!
And petshop that does not sell animals agreed to put up our photos of cats for adoption!
Gibraltar ...oh well...people already talking about eating rockfish and grey mullet if things come to that point....Rather be walled in than surrender...


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> What confuses me is that just a few months ago Cameron was deep in negotiation with the EU to secure a 'better' agreement selling us, the electorate, the ideal that the UK had some kind of standing in the EU with the power to negotiate a deal (don't worry, we didn't believe him lol) and then we get the referendum date and suddenly the very same David Cameron is telling us that the UK is nothing without the EU that we could not stand alone, that we have no trading power, that no one will want to work with us, that the city will collapse etc etc etc ...
> 
> And now this has been so publicly stated ...that the UKs own government thinks the UK can't stand alone and needs the EU we will have even less bargaining power to negotiate any deal within or I suspect even be listened to, in fact, should the vote be to stay we are quite simply a bit of a laughing stock.
> 
> ...


Yes, but ...

What confuses me is that Cameron tried to get something meaningful from the rest of the EU and, while they made a few concessions, there wasn't anything particularly earth-shattering.

Yet the Brexit supporters seem to think that once we have told the EU to poke their club, we will be able to negotiate whatever terms we want because they can't do without us. In light of what has already actually happened, this seems to me singularly unlikely.

Of course, since no-one on the Brexit side has said what they would ask for in the negotiations, it's difficult to say how realistic, or otherwise, their expectations might be.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> Aaaaaaarrrgghhhh!!!!!
> 
> This is typical of the bullsh1t lies and scaremongering that the 'in' proponents are spewing. Shocked that our government machinery should be used to generate biased propaganda like this. The paper reads like a guardian column rather than an official gov publication.
> 
> ...


The EU trade negotiations with Canada took 7 years. And they didn't include services. Those negotiators must _really_ have been morons!

If our negotiations take more than 2 years the EU Most Favoured Nation tariffs will apply, which seem to range from 2% to about 30%. So while some might not be huge, they do already exist.

The UK won't crash, of course, but it's hard to argue it wouldn't be adversely affected while negotiations continue.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> The UK won't crash, of course, but it's hard to argue it wouldn't be adversely affected while negotiations continue.


I don't know anybody who has argued that.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> Cameron tried to get something meaningful from the rest of the EU


I don't believe that for a second.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> I don't know anybody who has argued that.


So those who do claim it would be adversely affected aren't really scaremongering then, are they.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> I don't believe that for a second.


You don't believe he tried? We'll have to agree to differ then.

In my opinion he failed, certainly, but I'm very sure he tried, since a significant 'win' would have secured the referendum for him.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

One of the main reason to get out........TTIP

At least we have a chance to make our own politicians accountable


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> One of the main reason to get out........TTIP


Totally agree. It is one of the reasons I will be voting out. TTIP has zero chance if we are in but once we were out something very similar could be achieved bi-laterally between UK and U.S.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> Sorry to hear about your OH. Yes. Spain already announced they will close frontier...and maybe offer their workers permits!
> To what jobs if our economy collapses?
> People are thick ...how can they believe PP? The frankists!!
> but today our Save Gibraltar Street Cats charity held flag day and my tin was really heavy!!!
> ...


Thank you. Thankfully we don't have that much outgoings and a couple of my hubby's friends have said they might be able to get him a job where they work. So if the foundry does close I'm sure we'll get by. I should count my blessings really, we're fortunate compared to many out there.

I am sorry you're so worried, fingers crossed your worries turn out to be unfounded and whatever happens in the referendum everything will be good for you all on the rock!  (& well done with your street cat collection!)



rona said:


> One of the main reason to get out........TTIP
> 
> At least we have a chance to make our own politicians accountable


But its Cameron who is one the biggest supporters of TTIP, if not THE biggest supporter. The tory party(& ukip) don't believe in 'red tape', all that legislation that protects us and the natural world only hinders big business - and to them corporate profits are all that matter. Outside the EU, free from any legislation, we will be in even greater danger, we will be totally at their mercy - and they have no mercy!.

If I thought getting out of the EU would save us from TTIP I would vote out - but those who have fought TTIP from the very beginning are saying we have more chance of defeating it if we stay in.



Satori said:


> Totally agree. It is one of the reasons I will be voting out. TTIP has zero chance if we are in but *once we were out something very similar could be* *achieved bi-laterally* between UK and U.S.


As Caroline Lucas confims -

*Caroline LucasVerified account*‏@CarolineLucas
_Cameron is pursuing same aims as #TTIP in huge number of bilateral trade deals - would be worse outside EU_


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> But its Cameron who is one the biggest supporters of TTIP, if not THE biggest supporter. The tory party(& ukip) don't believe in 'red tape', all that legislation that protects us and the natural world only hinders big business - and to them corporate profits are all that matter. Outside the EU, free from any legislation, we will be in even greater danger, we will be totally at their mercy - and they have no mercy!.
> 
> If I thought getting out of the EU would save us from TTIP I would vote out - but those who have fought TTIP from the very beginning are saying we have more chance of defeating it if we stay in.
> 
> ...


When DaveC pretends to want the UK in an open border EU with no reforms. When noushka finds herself on the side of the Tory government of the day in the most important political decision of our lifetime. When Corbyn and Cameron are potentially on the same virtual platform [corbyron?]..... Someone is pulling someone's plonker somewhere.

Btw, I'll bet a pound to a bucket of sh1t that 90% plus of UKIP MEP's will vote to stay.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> When DaveC pretends to want the UK in an open border EU with no reforms. When noushka finds herself on the side of the Tory government of the day in the most important political decision of our lifetime. When Corbyn and Cameron are potentially on the same virtual platform [corbyron?]..... Someone is pulling someone's plonker somewhere.
> 
> Btw, I'll bet a pound to a bucket of sh1t that 90% plus of UKIP MEP's will vote to stay.


Mad, int it! On the pro-brexit side, standing with Farage & Johnson, we've got George Galloway:Wideyed Who'd have thought it! lol

Though I must object to you saying I'm on the side of the Tory government :Wtf LOL - and Jeremy would beg to differ about Cameron too!.










But the whole point of UKIP is to get us out of the EU, so I don't see how MEPs could vote IN. I'm sure they'll miss the gravy train though lol


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