# Manners Minder - remote treating machine



## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr. Sophia's MannersMinder

Just curious if anyone has used something like this and how useful it was. I think it could be great for teaching and reinforcing all sorts of remote behaviours, but it's pretty pricy!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I personally wouldn't use on as the dog could become too focussed on or conditioned to the machine being around rather than learning through working it out using it's brain. I'd rather teach my dog at close quarters and then build up the distance work in stages.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

I dont get it you might as well use a clicker and treat the dog yourself. Its pretty much the same thing but you can do it for a few ££.

Besides I like to give my dog the treat myself as you can teach them to take it gently. Its also good if children want to treat the dog. If you teach it 'nicely' it wont take the childs hand off


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

cutekiaro1 said:


> I dont get it you might as well use a clicker and treat the dog yourself. Its pretty much the same thing but you can do it for a few ££.
> 
> Besides I like to give my dog the treat myself as you can teach them to take it gently. Its also good if children want to treat the dog. If you teach it 'nicely' it wont take the childs hand off


One of the main uses I could see would be teaching the dog to settle while you are in another room - periodically giving a treat if the dog is quiet. I imagine it could be quite useful to build up time with seperation anxiety dogs if combined with a baby monitor thing.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> One of the main uses I could see would be teaching the dog to settle while you are in another room - periodically giving a treat if the dog is quiet. I imagine it could be quite useful to build up time with seperation anxiety dogs if combined with a baby monitor thing.


What distance does it work at? Can't imagine you'd be able to control it from work unless you worked from home.

Like cutekiaro said, it's just a new version of clicker for the lazy sod that can't be bothered to walk over to the dog and give it a treat.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

A lady I know who does a lot of agility has recently bought one and is finding it brilliant for teaching contacts.... however she's had to send two of them back because they developed a fault. Apparently there was a faulty batch. I know she's very frustrated because she is getting brilliant results in between replacement machines!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> What distance does it work at? Can't imagine you'd be able to control it from work unless you worked from home.
> 
> Like cutekiaro said, it's just a new version of clicker for the lazy sod that can't be bothered to walk over to the dog and give it a treat.


Not at all. As you should know, you shouldn't have too long a duration between click/treat so what if your dog is too far away to be able to get there in time? What if he's too far away and it's a windy day and he can't hear the click?

The lady I know who is having good results with it (although due to a faulty batch she's having to keep having them replaced but that's another matter) is a VERY experienced agility competitor and if she thinks it's worth using, I believe her


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

when the Manners-Minder was first produced, it was called the Treat n Train + made by Sharper-Image; it was designed at their request, by *sophia yin, DVM*. the rights were then sold to Premier Pet Prods, who re-named it Manners-Minder.

as noted above, it has been used for sep-anx, to teach the dog to be calm with the person at home, but out of sight; it has also been used for all sorts of otherwise-awkward training scenarios, like calm in the car (crated in the rear, and U are up front - How do U teach or reward calm to a dog while U drive?... U set it to automatic, thats how! ), 
teaching a directed go-out in advanced obedience, * and!... teaching dogs to  Leave the doorway, and go lie-down on a mat  whilst the human answers the door, and copes with the caller or the delivery. *:thumbup: 
another trainer i know uses it for dogs who are phobic about cars; they learn the MM gives goodies, the MM is moved closer to the car (no engine running yet), the dog remains calm; start engine, both back-doors open, dog is rewarded for walking or running thru the back-doors + across the seat to exit; then engine on, dog moved closer + closer, finally goes thru rear-compartment to exit, and THEN is rewarded for staying in place in the rear seat with the doors open.

it does a lot of things that are not possible to do, merely with a clicker + treats - especially as this works thru walls.  yes, they are not cheap - but some trainers will loan or rent them to clients, for a training project.

there are plenty of vid-clips on UTube using it; use Treat n Train, TnT, or Manners Minder, MM as search terms. here is one of a Sheltie training with a pvc-pipe box frame, as a cue to hit the contact-zones in agility; the trainer hits the reward-button at times that she does not intend to, since the dog is small + fast, but U get the idea. 
YouTube - Running Contacts with a PVC box - February 21st 2009 
she moves to an A-frame + a jump-series from the floor-box. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I guess the bonus factor is that it's a neutral way of having the treat appear - you can reward the dog without ending the behaviour or distracting the dog with your presence/attention. Things like 'lie down on your mat while I'm cooking' would go easier if the reward is magically appearing instead of coming from you walking over to give a treat. 

I think it's a very interesting thing and I will definitely consider finding one at some point


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

um I didnt think of it like that actually. I guess its very good if your doing the advanced obedience too. If you need to send your dog away to lie down. Its hard having to walk to the other end of the field to treat lol  

When I first saw it I thought 'yea right' but after reading these posts it seems there is a bit more to it than telling your dog to sit and giving it a treat !!!!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

But after all is said and done the dog is doing the behaviours to please you, it doesn't give a stuff about putting it's paws on a strip of yellow paint it just wants to get over the see-saw and there isn't anything to stop you from being there to reward the dog, spending time teachign the dog what you want, holding the treat int he same place as you would put the dispenser and it is YOU that the dog is trying to please.

If you are using it for seperation anxiety then how do you know if the dog is doing what you want at that time, how does the dog know that the treat is available? What is to stop you, the thing in the dog's life that is supposed to its pillar of security and confidence, being there every step of the way in getting it used to cars? The only way tyou could use it in these situiations is if it measured the dogs heart rate and dispensed a treat when it was at resting level.

When you were a kid and you were afraid of something and wouldn't go near whatever it was, would it make a difference if your parents put a sweet dispenser halfway towards it or would you rather have your parents at your side as you approached it? You might be rewarding the behaviour but you aren't changing the mindset of the dog or the child in this case it will still be unsure, anxious, afraid etc. Heck I'll climb a ladder if you put £20 at the top of it but I'll still won;t be calm about it.

You are rewarding a dog without being there which somewhat removes you from the bonding experience. I see it as a gimmick that neither benefits the dog or the trainer above personal delivery of a treat.


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

I've used it (successfully), twice now for barking in the car. I had the client go through all the exercises at home first, then got them to use it to deliver timely treats in the car, gradually building up duration while car was stationary, then gradually building up duration while moving.

So in this respect it was used as a tool for classical counter-conditioning. I can see that it would be useful for many cases requiring classical conditioning, where it's not possible for the owner to be within proximity to deliver treats.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re hutch - 


> If you are using it for seperation anxiety then * how do you know if the dog is doing what you want at that time, * how does the dog know that the treat is available? * What is to stop you,* the thing in the dog's life that is supposed to its pillar of security and confidence, *being there every step of the way in getting it used to cars? *  The only way tyou could use it in these situiations is if it measured the dogs heart rate and dispensed a treat when it was at resting level.


how does the trainer / owner KNOW? the dog is quiet or happily engaged, thats how.

as for the car training, i already explained that... 
and as for the ONLY RESTING HEART RATE, thats frankly ridiculous. CC is non-contingent, FYI. 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Can't imagine you'd be able to control it from work unless you worked from home.


it can be set for timed or intermittent dispensing. 
--- t


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

fun4fido said:


> I've used it (successfully), twice now for barking in the car. I had the client go through all the exercises at home first, then got them to use it to deliver timely treats in the car, gradually building up duration while car was stationary, then gradually building up duration while moving.
> 
> So in this respect it was used as a tool for classical counter-conditioning. I can see that it would be useful for many cases requiring classical conditioning, where it's not possible for the owner to be within proximity to deliver treats.


My dog wouldn't even accept a treat from my hand the car so a treat dispenser is pointless.



leashedForLife said:


> re hutch -
> 
> how does the trainer / owner KNOW? the dog is quiet or happily engaged, thats how.
> 
> ...


A dog is quiet when it's toileting, it is also content and busy when it's chewing your wall.

The resting heart rate comment was given as the only sure way to know your dog was calm without actually being there.



leashedForLife said:


> it can be set for timed or intermittent dispensing.
> --- t


How do you know if the dog is getting rewarded for the right behaviour if it is on a timer? It could be doing soemthing you don't want it to and then you are rewarding bad behaviour and setting yourself up for a nightmare. You might as well buy one of those things that feeds cats when you are on holiday if that is the case.

As I have said, I would want a treat to come from me for the bonding and the reward of pleasing me with the behaviour.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

IMO, if you've got a good bond with your dog the occasional treat from elsewhere, to help train certain behaviours, isn't going to make much difference. And your dog doesn't actually give a stuff about pleasing you - all it cares about is what happens to it when it follows a cue. Sure, when you're pleased you're more likely to provide nice things like treats and play - but as for the emotions you feel when you're pleased.... your dog neither knows nor cares


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re hutch -
> _ How do you know if the dog is getting rewarded for the right behaviour if it is on a timer?_


as i already *said*, hutch - 
counter-conditioning AKA *CC* is non-contingent - it does not matter in the least, what the dog is doing; 
we are associating a reward with a formerly-aversive stim, setting or context. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re hutch -
> _ My dog wouldn't even accept a treat from my hand (in) the car so a treat dispenser is pointless. _


that is why keeping the dog Under-Threshold is so important during B-Mod... 
U start where the dog is COMFORTABLE, and *will* take rewards... and over time, 
reduce the distance as the dog improves their tolerance. 
so U would not be In The Car - U would be as close as the dog is comfy and is 
willing to eat (or play with a toy, or sit + enjoy petting, or whatever thrills THAT dog). 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re arwenLune -
> _ ...you can reward the dog without ending the behaviour or distracting the dog with your presence/attention. _


yay, luna! :--) 
precisely! :thumbup: give the little lady a big hand... (wild applause, whistles, stomping...) 
--- terry


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> My dog wouldn't even accept a treat from my hand the car so a treat dispenser is pointless.


Hi,

If your dog won't take a treat in the car then you need to go through a process of desensitisation first, typically behaviour modification is done using desensitisation and counter conditioning (D&CC), _*not *_just counter conditioning.

As leashedForLife said. Start off some place near the car, always work with your dog sub-threshold (no overt reactions), slowly decrease distance to car, and then work in car, but with it stationary, then just switch engine on and off, then switch on engine for longer, then switch on engine and drive slowly for v short distance, and slowly increase, and so on.

But always work sub-threshold, meaning that you never elicit and overt reaction from your dog. If a dog is over-threshold (over-stressed), then effective learning cannot take place.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - using manners minder for jumping work

teaching a Sheltie to jump round / drop head (vs be high-headed + with their back stiff)


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

fun4fido said:


> Hi,
> 
> If your dog won't take a treat in the car then you need to go through a process of desensitisation first, typically behaviour modification is done using desensitisation and counter conditioning (D&CC), _*not *_just counter conditioning.
> 
> ...


I sorted it out ages ago. He's perfectly happy and relaxed in the car and has been for about 18months. Took about a week but after that he has been topnotchsuperstar  

I just don't get the point of the over priced treat dispenser for the time being so we will have to agree to disagree on this.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - MannersMinder Overview (a.k.a. Treat and Train)

includes Before + After clips of dogs in pet-homes, DURING the clinical trials phase - 
defensive-aggro, over-arousal, nuisance-barking, jumping, threats (growls) etc.

it also includes info on the training-process + the accompanying-DVD, which explains how dogs / organisms learn, other uses, * and even BODY * SCORING for condition - fit, fat, lean, obese, under-wt. * 
very helpful - :thumbsup:
--- terry


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