# Maya...maiden bitch, 10 in litter



## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Hi,
My Labrador Maya gave birth to 10 lovely Labradoodle pups last Sunday, was all going well until she got mastitis in one of her teats, caught it quite early, vets put her on antibiotics and anti inflamms, shes still feeding well and the pups are naturally avoiding the affected teat, they didnt feed off it as it had an inverted nipple.
The vet said Maya was very underweight, she isnt, shes just quite slightly built, if you look at my pix of her pre litter she isnt much different.
Vet also said she wouldnt be able to feed the 10 pups and that we should buy some welpie and supplement Mayas feeding, at moment all pups are satisfied and settled and growing, i weighed a dog and a bitch last night and they are 1lb 1oz each, ive marked them so i can closely monitor any weight loss/gain.
I am reluctant to mess with nature as Maya is doing a splendid job, however I am new to breeding and would welcome any advise from established breeders, I am not a breeder as such, I just wanted Maya to have a litter as she is a splendid special dog.
we are expressing the milk from afffected teat three times a day and the lumpiness and redness/heat has gone out of the teat, it was swollen like a human breast before, all other teats are soft.:confused5:


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

Hi & welcome to the forums assuming your genuine. I'm sorry but I can offer no practical advise or even pass comment on your situation. I have no experience of either. However, I'm fairly certain a few people will be along soon though.

To pf members. The deed is done, the pups are here. 

Can we give advice/help/support to help op do the best for Maya & the puppies please.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

thanx for reply, yes i am very genuine and very worried, i really dont want to intervene as Maya is doing a great job, she has ate a big bowl of puppy porridge for breakfast and lunch and is drinking well now so must be feeling better, she only had slight temp yesterday as we caught the mastitis in early stages, half of the teat now is soft where as all of it was hot and lumpy yesterday, i am inclined to just let her get on with it under close supervision of course.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

with 10 ten pups you'll need to monitor them closely and weigh them daily , are the pups all the same colour? if so i'd sugest you buy some identification collars.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUPPY-WHE...UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&var=&hash=item896085196b

have you got her on a good quality food?


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Hi and welcome. I am no breeder but I suggest if you disagree with your vet on her being underweight then you should seek another opinion. 10 pups is going to be a strain on any bitch but especially a maiden! : 
There are some experienced breeders here who will hopefully be along soon.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

i got some collars in my whelping pack which i didnt end up opening!! when would u suggest putting collars on? they are all yellow, 5 boys 5 girls, i weighed a boy and girl and marked them so i could see if there was weight gain, i was thinking of putting collars on at 2 weeks when i weigh and do first worming. is that right?


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

sue&harvey said:


> Hi and welcome. I am no breeder but I suggest if you disagree with your vet on her being underweight then you should seek another opinion. 10 pups is going to be a strain on any bitch but especially a maiden! :
> There are some experienced breeders here who will hopefully be along soon.


thanks for reply, it wasnt my usual vet as he is in betley 40 mins away and didnt want to subject Maya to a long journey as she hates the car so maybe i will get a 2nd opinion when can get usual vet to visit, the local vet in village didnt do house visits even tho i said that Maya had a new litter, vet seems to have given Maya the right medication though as shes feeling better


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

dexter said:


> with 10 ten pups you'll need to monitor them closely and weigh them daily , are the pups all the same colour? if so i'd sugest you buy some identification collars.
> PUPPY WHELPING COLLARS, WHELPING ID BANDS PACK 10/20/50 | eBay
> 
> have you got her on a good quality food?


Hi...sorry didnt see the bit about the food, yes shes on Dr Johns dry food, and now on gilbertson and Page puppy kibble, also got the puppy porridge,a german make.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

all pups should have been weighed daily since the birth, surely?

if you are not happy with your vets opinion, use a differant one.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Dr Johns is a dreadful food. Your girl will need a much better quality food anyway, but even more so with 10 pups to feed.
ALL pups need to be weighed daily and ID collars are essential so you know which ones are gianing how much etc


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## thedogcabin (Jul 19, 2011)

you really should be weighing them ALL daily and keeping notes so easy to notice any change. As long as they are all putting on weight I would leave Maya to it for now as mum's milk is always best. With such a large litter you may consider weaning them early to help mum out as they get bigger.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

ok will weigh and collar them this afternoon, thank you.
Why is Dr Johns a bad food? I have all 3 labs on it as it was what the breeder suggested when my lots were pups, so difficult to do whats best for your dogs, I was happy with the food up until now, the two black labs look like they have been polished with Mr Sheen their coats are so shiney.
Am all new to this breeding so advice is welcome, please keep it coming, off to weigh my pups!!


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

thedogcabin said:


> you really should be weighing them ALL daily and keeping notes so easy to notice any change. As long as they are all putting on weight I would leave Maya to it for now as mum's milk is always best. With such a large litter you may consider weaning them early to help mum out as they get bigger.


thank you, good advice, how soon can they be weaned? Is it dependent on weight?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dr John's is full of bulking agents, it also contains BHA and BHT, both of which are known carcinogens.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Tapir said:


> all pups should have been weighed daily since the birth, surely?
> 
> if you are not happy with your vets opinion, use a differant one.


thanx for your reply, I see you have ferrets, i have two, Natanial and Matilda, Nathanial a silver hob and Matilda a white Jill, love them to bits.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Dr John's is full of bulking agents, it also contains BHA and BHT, both of which are known carcinogens.


what food do you reccommend? I am shocked by the carcinogens:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I raw feed, which isn't for everybody I know, but there are good commercial foods available. A lot of folk I know with working dogs use Skinners, stick to the ones with rice in as an ingredient, the cheaper stuff isn't as good, and the working muesli/crunchy stuff could send a placid pet through the roof there are that many calories. Other than that, have a read through the health and nutrition section, there are plenty of recommendations in there  

And, welcome to the forum btw, I've got two Labs myself, and a flatcoat retriever, and plan to take a litter from one of my bitches hopefully next spring.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Thank you for your help, I have the 3 Labs, Maya the proud mother is a yellow Labrador, Stuffin her brother is a Black Labrador and we have Bess from another litter another black Labrador, they are all three years old, I have learnt a lot this afternoon.
Good luck with your litter when it comes, It is a wonderful experience until something goes wrong like now. Luckily I can do more or less anything with Maya, she has total trust in me and me in her which is why I dont want to let her down.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

In terms of good dry foods there is a thread in Dog Health and Nutrition which is a 'sticky' its by Six Star. Be easier for you to look on there than me list them off


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lori Angel said:


> Thank you for your help, I have the 3 Labs, Maya the proud mother is a yellow Labrador, Stuffin her brother is a Black Labrador and we have Bess from another litter another black Labrador, they are all three years old, I have learnt a lot this afternoon.
> Good luck with your litter when it comes, It is a wonderful experience until something goes wrong like now. Luckily I can do more or less anything with Maya, she has total trust in me and me in her which is why I dont want to let her down.


Thanks, it's something I've been planning for a while, and have found a lovely dog to take me forward to the next generation, as I hope to show and dabble a little more with some of the gundog stuff.


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## thedogcabin (Jul 19, 2011)

Lori Angel said:


> thank you, good advice, how soon can they be weaned? Is it dependent on weight?


I would try from about 2 1/2- 3 weeks old, once they have their eyes open and start to move around. Start by mixing up some welpi/lactol and see if they lap it up, if they do you can then make it into 'puppy porridge' by soaking some puppy food and mixing it with the milk. As the pups get used to the idea you can make the porridge a little thicker by using less milk until the pups are just eating soaked puppy food. Always have a bowl of fresh drinking water available as the pups will also drink from that.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It also depends on the bitch, some are happier feeding pups for longer, others aren't so keen.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

I have had chihuahua's so Lab's are a much bigger dog, I found this which may help you with your Lab puppies. Seems weird reading this and looking at the amounts to do..........lol mine had teeny tiny amounts compared lololol

Weaning is started in preparation for the pup to be ready for its new home at the age of 8 weeks. At this time the pups need to have their gastrointestinal tract accustomed to eating commercially prepared puppy foods (which are nutritionally balanced). In most kennels, puppies get the first taste of food other than Mums milk at about 3 weeks of age.

Prepare the puppy porridge by placing 2 cups of high quality dry puppy food, which has been soaked overnight using a milk replacer, in a blender. Adding some hot water so the puppies are served warm porridge. Blend until the consistency of human baby food  no lumps! (This feeds 6-8 puppies of a medium-sized breed.) Placing the porridge on a saucer the puppies will be able to lap. Be warned it is a messy process but an enjoyable one seeing them getting used to solid food. The puppies should be having evenly spaced out meals of between 3 and 4 a day by the third day of commencing the introduction of food. Building up to slightly larger meals as the days/weeks go by. The goal is to reduce the liquid content so as to feed dry food to the puppies by the time they are between 6 and 7 weeks of age. Each week increase the amount of food, decrease the amount of the milk replacer and water that is added.

Once they are on dry food, it may be left in with the puppies (when the dam is out of the box). Leaving water available for the puppies. As the puppies progress with eating more solid food, the bitch may choose to be from the puppies for an even longer period of time as she will know the demands on her have been reduced. A bitch will on average give her puppies milk up to the age of five or six weeks. The minimum any breeder should hope for from the Dam is for her to feed milk until 3 weeks of age which does ensure nutritional needs are fulfilled. By the time they are 6 weeks, they should be fully weaned from the dams milk, eating dry food, and drinking water. If a bitch has weaned her puppies off milk before the age of 6 weeks then a breeder will continue with the milk substitute until the age of 6 weeks. The aim is to wean entirely onto puppy food which is nutritionally balanced for the puppies growing needs. All Bitches are different as to when they stop feeding their pups, some are happy to continue until 7 weeks. Some stop at 4 weeks.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

thedogcabin said:


> I would try from about 2 1/2- 3 weeks old, once they have their eyes open and start to move around. Start by mixing up some welpi/lactol and see if they lap it up, if they do you can then make it into 'puppy porridge' by soaking some puppy food and mixing it with the milk. As the pups get used to the idea you can make the porridge a little thicker by using less milk until the pups are just eating soaked puppy food. Always have a bowl of fresh drinking water available as the pups will also drink from that.


Thank you, will do that


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

GoldenShadow said:


> In terms of good dry foods there is a thread in Dog Health and Nutrition which is a 'sticky' its by Six Star. Be easier for you to look on there than me list them off


will do thanx


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> I have had chihuahua's so Lab's are a much bigger dog, I found this which may help you with your Lab puppies. Seems weird reading this and looking at the amounts to do..........lol mine had teeny tiny amounts compared lololol
> 
> Weaning is started in preparation for the pup to be ready for its new home at the age of 8 weeks. At this time the pups need to have their gastrointestinal tract accustomed to eating commercially prepared puppy foods (which are nutritionally balanced). In most kennels, puppies get the first taste of food other than Mums milk at about 3 weeks of age.
> 
> ...


thanx so much for your time and trouble you have taken in replying, much appreciated, what a lot of helpful souls there are on this forum!! x


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

the photo on my avatar is Maya, I took the pic yesterday after we got back from vets, she doesnt look too sorry for herself considering the mastitis, thanx again for all the valuable help on the forums


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I have had chihuahua's so Lab's are a much bigger dog, I found this which may help you with your Lab puppies


They're not labs puppies, they're labradoodles. I assume you used a standard poodle which usually produce dogs bigger than labs.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> They're not labs puppies, they're labradoodles. I assume you used a standard poodle which usually produce dogs bigger than labs.


yes we used my father in laws standard poodle Marco, so think they will be tall.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

She needs to be on a good quality food - trouble is now, you might upset both hers and the pups tum's by changing - but it needs to be done.

I feed my bitch's on Pro Plan Puppy Large Breed Robust (around 7 meals a day) and add in a chicken a day, oily fish, rice pudding and beef and for the first few days, a litre of Lactol a day - that was for a litter of 7 - my bitches are fed on demand - if they want food, they get it - after the first few days, I downgrade the Lactol to Goats Milk.

My last girl was 'slight' in Labrador show terms - but delivered me 7 x 21 oz pups who all weighed in around the 8 kilo mark at 8 weeks.

I don't weigh my pups daily because they usually grow at such a fast rate - you can see within a day if a pup isn't thriving - I've also never felt the need to identify them even when they've all been the same colour 

With 10 pups she is going to need every iota of quality food you can get into her, and she isn't getting that at the moment.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

i think it is really nice of all these breeders to give you such good advice.

i am not a breeder and never will be but having read the books on my breed feel i know more about the subject then you.

did you prepare for these puppies? 

what was your intention of having them? if it was to make money for fashionable puppies ie labradoodles then this is the complete wrong way of going about it. a breeder should never be in it for the money.

breeders spend years researching and trying to enhance a breed.

if you love your lab as a pet then breeding from her with no experience was a mistake as it puts their life in danger if you have no idea what you are doing.

also you have no advice from say the stud dogs owner and are relying on web based advice. i am glad that you got it here from some very helpful and knowledgeable breeders.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

sorry for the rant!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'll temper (very quickly) the questions asked above, *we* as a whole are very pro ethical breeding on this forum, and although willing to give advice, if there's a chance to help educate, and stop people from going ahead without breeding unecessarily, then that's pretty much the advice that's usually given. In your case, the puppies are here, so there's not much point in saying what health tests have you done, you've not mentioned any, you may have done the whole compliment, or may be under the misconception none are needed for cross breeds, I have no idea. 

Just for your information though, just in case you didn't know, there are a few tests recommended for both Labradors and poodles that cross the divide, and should be tested, for - hips, elbows, gPRA and BVA current clear eye cert off the top of my head. I don't know whether you've done any of those, but whether or not you have, it's still a good idea to have a contract in place for puppy buyers, to alert them to these conditions, and give advice about exercise, good food and other environmental factors that may or may not affect their development, and also put in place a contract that ensures they don't end up in rescue, ie any puppy owner informs you should they become unable to look after their pup/dog for any reason. 

Also, again, I've no idea what health tests you may have done, but even if you haven't done any, it's still possible to test in retrospect, just to put your mind at ease and those of puppy buyers, and the reason I'm posting this information isn't just for the OP, but for any lurkers reading, who may find the information useful too. 

Right, off to download lots of photos for work, had a 5am start this morning and I'm cream crackered!


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> i think it is really nice of all these breeders to give you such good advice.
> 
> i am not a breeder and never will be but having read the books on my breed feel i know more about the subject then you.
> 
> ...


Ok...Firstly I am a qualified veterinary nurse so yes i know about breeding when it goes wrong but had not seen normal delivery or looked after a dog following a normal whelping, I was the one that sorted everything else when it went wrong. My father in law is an acredited breeder so is on tap for advice but i wanted to do it myself this time, I read all about breeding for many hours when i could, i just thought it would be good to get some advice as i wasnt happy with the advice i got from the vet, I feel we learn more from listening to the experience of others, rather than just from the web.
Incidentally the stud dog was my father in laws so I could ask advice from him if i wanted.
Happily Maya is doing well, eating well and I am happy to say that the mastitis is settled, pups are satisfied and settle and growing well, I asked for advice to expand my knowledge, not because i had none of my own.
I would like to thank everyone for the advice given.
Bye for now


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'll temper (very quickly) the questions asked above, *we* as a whole are very pro ethical breeding on this forum, and although willing to give advice, if there's a chance to help educate, and stop people from going ahead without breeding unecessarily, then that's pretty much the advice that's usually given. In your case, the puppies are here, so there's not much point in saying what health tests have you done, you've not mentioned any, you may have done the whole compliment, or may be under the misconception none are needed for cross breeds, I have no idea.
> 
> Just for your information though, just in case you didn't know, there are a few tests recommended for both Labradors and poodles that cross the divide, and should be tested, for - hips, elbows, gPRA and BVA current clear eye cert off the top of my head. I don't know whether you've done any of those, but whether or not you have, it's still a good idea to have a contract in place for puppy buyers, to alert them to these conditions, and give advice about exercise, good food and other environmental factors that may or may not affect their development, and also put in place a contract that ensures they don't end up in rescue, ie any puppy owner informs you should they become unable to look after their pup/dog for any reason.
> 
> ...


yes thank you eyes clear, hips 3;3 and elbows fine, i did all the necessary before i bred, I did do my homework. x


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> My father in law is an acredited breeder so is on tap for advice


I thought accredited breeders could not use their dogs to breed crossbreeds


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Firstly it is my father in laws pet poodle...
He is an acredited breeder of LABS and SPRINGERS.
Hence we were allowed to use the poodle as he is a splendid natured dog
Hope this clears your confusion


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Lori Angel said:


> Ok...Firstly I am a qualified veterinary nurse so yes i know about breeding when it goes wrong but had not seen normal delivery or looked after a dog following a normal whelping, I was the one that sorted everything else when it went wrong. My father in law is an acredited breeder so is on tap for advice but i wanted to do it myself this time, I read all about breeding for many hours when i could, i just thought it would be good to get some advice as i wasnt happy with the advice i got from the vet, I feel we learn more from listening to the experience of others, rather than just from the web.
> Incidentally the stud dog was my father in laws so I could ask advice from him if i wanted.
> Happily Maya is doing well, eating well and I am happy to say that the mastitis is settled, pups are satisfied and settle and growing well, I asked for advice to expand my knowledge, not because i had none of my own.
> I would like to thank everyone for the advice given.
> Bye for now


i just meant you didn't have much in terms of knowledge as they haven't been weighed yet and thats what most breeders do at first and most know the different dogs too.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> i just meant you didn't have much in terms of knowledge as they haven't been weighed yet and thats what most breeders do at first and most know the different dogs too.


Thats because i didnt want to handle them too much initially, they are all weighed and recorded now.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Lori Angel said:


> Firstly it is my father in laws pet poodle...
> He is an acredited breeder of LABS and SPRINGERS.
> Hence we were allowed to use the poodle as he is a splendid natured dog
> Hope this clears your confusion


Don't worry, I'm not confused!

A breeder of labs and springers has a pet poodle? I'm assuming working ones - first time I've heard of a lab/springer man owning a pet poodle - I'll bet he gets a ribbing


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lori Angel said:


> yes thank you eyes clear, hips 3;3 and elbows fine, i did all the necessary before i bred, I did do my homework. x


That's nice to know, there are so many who don't, and even worse, some who are completely misled into breeding for the wrong reasons, such as it does a bitch good to have at least one litter, cross breeds don't need health tests because of hybrid vigour etc, etc. Even vets and vet nurses sometimes give out this sort of advice, I'm afraid when it comes to trying to push the message of ethical breeding, it's a bit of a mission for some on this forum, whether that's pedigrees or cross breeds


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Lori Angel said:


> Thats because i didnt want to handle them too much initially, they are all weighed and recorded now.


 

Why would you 'not want to handle them too much?' the first thing I do is weigh my pups - I am with them 24x7 and unlike many others I seldom feel the need to continue weighing them unless I can see they are not thriving -

By weighing them at the outset - you also get a quick handle on any you need to be more cautious over - Lab puppies grow at a VERY fast rate - lack of growth in one or more of the litter is obvious within a day - but if you don't know where you are coming from, how do you know where you are going to? 

As for being a veterinary nurse - did you not have advice on how to feed a litter?

I am not exagerating when I say my food bill is probably not far off £100 a week for feeding first mum and then weaning the babies - my bitches are on a good quality food from 6/7 weeks pregnant - I don't feed them up before this because I don't want them carrying too much physical non baby weight before giving birth - but from the last few weeks of pregnancy, if my girl wants to eat she does - and lives like a queen - even if I have to survive on £1 Gluten Free Beefburgers from M&S along with my GF bread to pay for it - so I can ensure my babies want for nothing.

Weaning starts when either pups and /. or mum tell me they are ready - my last litter were climbing into mums food bowl at 2 weeks before they'd even really opened their eyes and I started wearning there and then - my girl had stopped feeding completely by 4/5 weeks.

Her mother's litters we didn't really start weaning until around 3 weeks plus because we had no reason to.

The experience you claim to have from your job and your FIL as an Accredited Breeder clearly surpass mine - yet you are the one asking for such basic advice  This is advice that your FIL should be able to give you 



Lori Angel said:


> I am not a breeder as such, I just wanted Maya to have a litter as she is a splendid special dog.


You had a litter - therefore you are a breeder

I am surprised that in your line of work you would realise that "special dogs" don't always produce "special pups" - frequently not clones of either parent - special bitches don't always make good mothers - trouble is - you only find all this out when you breed them - but having a "special dog" is not a good enough reason for breeding - neither is doing the health-tests in - and neither make a good breeder.

Couple these with having a reasonable knowledge of how to care for your bitch and the babies (before she is even mated) - then you are starting to move slowly towards it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lori Angel said:


> ok will weigh and collar them this afternoon, thank you.
> Why is Dr Johns a bad food? I have all 3 labs on it as it was what the breeder suggested when my lots were pups, so difficult to do whats best for your dogs, I was happy with the food up until now, the two black labs look like they have been polished with Mr Sheen their coats are so shiney.
> Am all new to this breeding so advice is welcome, please keep it coming, off to weigh my pups!!


My two newfies had Dr Johns for a long time until it started to give them the squelchies. I had no idea it was not a good food, but until I joined this forum I did not know to look at the ingredients. Now they are on Royal Canin which a lot don't seem to like on here, but I started them off on that as puppies and whatever is in this stuff, Ferdie's waste has never looked so good. So don't feel bad. Even a vet nurse cannot know all about the best foods.



Lori Angel said:


> Ok...Firstly I am a qualified veterinary nurse so yes i know about breeding when it goes wrong but had not seen normal delivery or looked after a dog following a normal whelping, I was the one that sorted everything else when it went wrong. My father in law is an acredited breeder so is on tap for advice but i wanted to do it myself this time, I read all about breeding for many hours when i could, i just thought it would be good to get some advice as i wasnt happy with the advice i got from the vet, I feel we learn more from listening to the experience of others, rather than just from the web.
> Incidentally the stud dog was my father in laws so I could ask advice from him if i wanted.
> Happily Maya is doing well, eating well and I am happy to say that the mastitis is settled, pups are satisfied and settle and growing well, I asked for advice to expand my knowledge, not because i had none of my own.
> I would like to thank everyone for the advice given.
> Bye for now


I have never bred a dog, nor would I want to, but it seems to me that you are doing very well. Of course you have the medical experience, but that does not necessarily give you any special insight into breeding. I am glad so many gave you good advice. The fact is that many people come on to this forum having already mated their bitch or having just had puppies who have done no research whatsoever and have no clue what they are doing. Therefore people, especially established and careful breeders, get a bit niggly sometimes.

As to the vet's advice, is this the vet that you work for? Either way, if your dog is fine and your pups are putting on weight, I would agree with you not to interfere with nature. Just keep a very careful eye, and as someone said, whean them earlier if possible.

And good luck with them.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Good luck with your babies and mummy - I love doodles and would love to see some pics as they grow! :thumbup1:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

> He is an acredited breeder of LABS and SPRINGERS.


That doesnt matter, doesnt matter what he breeds - he is an assured breeder regardless, and by the rules SHOULD NOT be allowing his dogs out to other breeds, regardless of him breeding from them as pure breeds or simply owning as pets!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Just had to come over and say Hi.

I have a Maya, an Alaskan malamute who had a litter of 10 (3 years ago now) that were also mixed breed (although mine was not intentional) :lol:

Can't wait to see some photos :thumbup1:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Don't worry, I'm not confused!
> 
> A breeder of labs and springers has a pet poodle? I'm assuming working ones - first time I've heard of a lab/springer man owning a pet poodle - I'll bet he gets a ribbing


That shows a bit of ignorance. A standard poodle is a gun dog and would complement very nicely with labs and springers.

Why on earth do some people have to be so rude to new members. It is such a shame.

The OP has obviously put a lot of thought into it and why shouldnt she breed from her bitch if she wants to. If Dr Johns suits her dogs why not stick to it and supplement it with something else which is what she said she has been doing. It is all down to how the bitch looks and how the pups thrive and none of us can see this.

Anyway I imagine she has gone now - I certainly would not hang about if I was her. And it had started off so nicely too!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> The OP has obviously put a lot of thought into it and why shouldnt she breed from her bitch if she wants to.


Yes it would seem she has  asking basic questions, and failing to understand basic breeding rules  - alot of thought, into breeding - that figures when the only reasons behind the litter is because the dog is splendid :frown2:

'why shouldnt she breed if she wants to' - just the type of comment I expect from you...& that very comment is the reason so many folk breed, why so many dogs suffer, and why dogs are PTS ...


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Don't worry, I'm not confused!
> 
> A breeder of labs and springers has a pet poodle? I'm assuming working ones - first time I've heard of a lab/springer man owning a pet poodle - I'll bet he gets a ribbing


its mother in laws pet but has a good pedigree


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Lori Angel said:


> has a good pedigree


Doesnt mean alot when being outcrossed to another breed


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> That shows a bit of ignorance. A standard poodle is a gun dog and would complement very nicely with labs and springers.


Not as a gun dog it doesn't 
I have heard of such a kennel but the reason they breed these poodle crosses is for money, they are not used as gundogs.

And perhaps I was wrong about the ribbing - the breeder probably has the last laugh when he refects on his bank balance.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Blitz said:


> That shows a bit of ignorance. A standard poodle is a gun dog and would complement very nicely with labs and springers.
> 
> Why on earth do some people have to be so rude to new members. It is such a shame.
> 
> ...


thanx for that mate....appreciated the kind words initially but I didnt expect this sort of abuse, i only asked for help so I think I will make a retreat, my bitch is doing well, pups are thriving, my other dogs are well loved and happy souls, I think we should just agree to differ and treat people with the respect on line as we would in person!! Thanx again to all the nice helpful souls when I needed help but this is nt for me. xx


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Not as a gun dog it doesn't
> I have heard of such a kennel but the reason they breed these poodle crosses is for money, they are not used as gundogs.
> 
> And perhaps I was wrong about the ribbing - the breeder probably has the last laugh when he refects on his bank balance.


:confused5:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Lori Angel said:


> I think we should just agree to differ and treat people with the respect on line as we would in person!!


If we all have the same respect for ethical dog breeding as the ones that speak up on here, there wouldnt such a problem in the UK with over breeding 
- You have been treated fairly, the fact is you have bred with little knowledge and no vaild reason, therefore people will disagree. - and have every right to air their concern. - of course the truth hurts.


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> If we all have the same respect for ethical dog breeding as the ones that speak up on here, there wouldnt such a problem in the UK with over breeding
> - You have been treated fairly, the fact is you have bred with little knowledge and no vaild reason, therefore people will disagree. - and have every right to air their concern. - of course the truth hurts.


....and what gives you the right to be so pompous??????????????


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Lori Angel said:


> ....and what gives you the right to be so pompous??????????????


I have the right to an opinion (what ever that makes me in your view) and because I have that right I will air it..In the same way you had the right to breed, and done so!


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## Lori Angel (Nov 25, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have the right to an opinion (what ever that makes me in your view) and because I have that right I will air it..In the same way you had the right to breed, and done so!


you are nothing but BULLY!!! very brave on a keyboard.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I thought accredited breeders could not use their dogs to breed crossbreeds


i reported a local AB for letting their dog mate with another breed, to the KC , was told its frowned upon and we'll look into it.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Lori Angel said:


> you are nothing but BULLY!!! very brave on a keyboard.


an no doubt worse off the forum, you see when you work with rescue and you have dog after dog dumped in your care, dogs that have been brought into the world for no reason you do get abit peeved, I am passionate about dog breeding - theres only one way thats acceptable!

Dont worry though because most on here 'wanna be dog lovers' will support you..Shame they cant support us in rescue spending out our hard earned cash when dogs bred by folk like you end up with us! :mad5:

If that makes me a bully, so be it.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Not as a gun dog it doesn't
> I have heard of such a kennel but the reason they breed these poodle crosses is for money, they are not used as gundogs.


I was replying to your surprise about a lab and springer breeder having a poodle as a pet. I meant they would complement each other in the home - not for breeding. I would imagine a labradoodle would make a horrendous gun dog - they dont seem to inherit those traits from either parents from what I understand - just turn into big floppy daft dogs (that isnt an insult to them by the way though they dont really appeal to me I am sure they are great pets in the right home)



Lori Angel said:


> ....and what gives you the right to be so pompous??????????????


erm, it is her age. She will grow out of it and realise that other peoples opinions count even if they are the opposite of her own.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> erm, it is her age. She will grow out of it and realise that other peoples opinions count even if they are the opposite of her own.


I wouldnt say age has anything to do with it, I know just to well what happens when people breeding dont do so in an ethical manner, therefore wont support it! My opinion wont change infact will only get supporter, as I get older!!
- But while on the subject of age, its bad on those that know less than someone 'my age' who has ALOT to learn, yet still get their dog pregnant! :skep:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I was replying to your surprise about a lab and springer breeder having a poodle as a pet. I meant they would complement each other in the home - not for breeding. I would imagine a labradoodle would make a horrendous gun dog - they dont seem to inherit those traits from either parents from what I understand - *just turn into big floppy daft dogs *(that isnt an insult to them by the way though they dont really appeal to me I am sure they are great pets in the right home)


You are quite right; they all seem to be like that, just my sort of dog. But why do you think two working breeds like that turn into these great daft things? Just goes to show you never know what you are going to get with a crossbreed, no matter what it is.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I was replying to your surprise about a lab and springer breeder having a poodle as a pet.


That's because I move in working gundog circles and knowing many, many in the gundog world I can say that a poodle would not be a choice even as a pet. I do know of a couple of kennels (one well known - or should I say infamous) for having a poodle stud and they breed the poodle crosses purely for financial reasons.



> I meant they would complement each other in the home - not for breeding. I would imagine a labradoodle would make a horrendous gun dog - they dont seem to inherit those traits from either parents from what I understand - *just turn into big floppy daft dogs*


There is a reason why poodles are no longer used as gundogs 
And personally, I can't see any good reason to breed a dog whose charateristics are being big floppy and daft


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I have no idea how many poodle x dogs end up in rescue in the UK and wouldn't presume to guess.

When my older son wanted a labradoodle (friend has one and he loves it) we checked all the Melbourne pounds and RSPCA. NOTHING! I tried all the Victorian rescue organisations. You guessed it... NOTHING. We kept checking for four months. NOTHING. We were very suprised as we had read various things about these pernicious cross-breeds flooding dog rescue.

In the end we had to buy a puppy. Tess is the first dog I have ever "bought", I've always had dogs that needed a home, like Rex. Tess is a lively little dog with a great temperament (unlike Rex). She's a happy little dog who loves people and other dogs. She's quicker to learn than the GSDx, Rex. In no sense is she big, floppy or daft. She'll be starting agility, soon.

Since then I've looked at pounds and the RSPCA maybe a couple of times a month and I've NEVER seen anything approaching a poodle x. OK that's not a properly conducted survey.

I think many people LIKE these crosses and I think they tend to end up in homes.

I would like to see ALL dogs bred from health tested parents by people who love them and care enough to see the relevent test results are good enough to warrent breeding from those particular animals. A breeder should have the necessary knowledge and support.

That said, why should we, the pet-owning public, be forced to have a pedigree dog if we prefer a cross-breed?????????? If someone owns a pedigree dog/bitch why should they be forced to breed to another dog of the same breed if they want to breed to a different pedigree??? (Assuming all ethical standards are met.)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ozrex said:


> I have no idea how many poodle x dogs end up in rescue in the UK and wouldn't presume to guess.
> 
> When my older son wanted a labradoodle (friend has one and he loves it) we checked all the Melbourne pounds and RSPCA. NOTHING! I tried all the Victorian rescue organisations. You guessed it... NOTHING. We kept checking for four months. NOTHING. We were very suprised as we had read various things about these pernicious cross-breeds flooding dog rescue.
> 
> ...


It's not easy to say, poodle crosses don't always look like a half way house, some look almost 100% like one or the other adult, and coat types do vary tremendously, I've seen full poodle coats, shaggy coats, and long wavy coats on Labradoodles, who's to say what they would end up being called a cross of in rescue? Possibly Irish Wolfhound with the size of some of them, particularly as the Labradoodles I've come across have all been spayed/neutered early, which of course gives a greater chance of them being substantially larger than either parent breed.

Similarly with cavapoos and cockapoos, who's to say they won't just go down as a bichon or poodle cross, without any mention of the *other* part, which is perhaps not as easy to guess unless the cross looks more like the non poo part? It's just a random guess on behalf of the rescue organisation, based on other similar types of dogs they've had through the doors before, you should see some of the Labrador rescues that go through, they look nothing like Labs in some instances!

Edited to add, the sad fact is, any of those dogs that end up in rescue because somewhere along the line a breeder didn't care enough to ensure that should puppy owners be unable to cope with a dog they had bred, that it should either go back to them, or be rehomed with their express permission and new contact details. If that happened for every litter, the rescue problem would be solved.

Apols to the OP, slightly OT but felt it worth answering the point and adding the bit about contracts.


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> And personally, I can't see any good reason to breed a dog whose charateristics are being big floppy and daft


Not related to the thread but that is just your personal opinion, different breeds were bred for different purposes and to suit different sorts of people. That above description fits my breed to a T so obviously those characteristics appeal to some people .


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

ozrex said:


> I have no idea how many poodle x dogs end up in rescue in the UK and wouldn't presume to guess.
> 
> When my older son wanted a labradoodle (friend has one and he loves it) we checked all the Melbourne pounds and RSPCA. NOTHING! I tried all the Victorian rescue organisations. You guessed it... NOTHING. We kept checking for four months. NOTHING. We were very suprised as we had read various things about these pernicious cross-breeds flooding dog rescue.
> 
> ...


SL makes a good point - the problem with crosses is unless you DNA test them - you frequently have no idea what you are looking at.

To give you a recent example of something I've seen - I am dealing with a lady who wants to breed her health tested KC reg Lab - she also has two older dogs (12 now) - shockingly they are litter sisters

They are Springer / Working sheepdog crosses - lovely dogs, one I would defy anyone to say it's a x with anything - that dog screams purebred sheepdog with attitude to match - the litter sister screams there MUST be Poodle or some other curly haired breed in there - because most of its features are NOTHING like a Collie or Springer.

In fact, to me - this is how I would envisage a "middle of the road" Cocker / Poodle cross to look - yet the dogs are full siblings from the same litter.

======================================

Some of the issues around Poodle crosses are the (false) claims that they don't moult or shed - and people are charging large sums of money for unhealth-tested dogs on this basis - so people who get these pups who they do turn out to be allergic to - often end up rehoming / ditching them - but frequently - it would be hard to accept they had poodle in them.

A cross can look like either pedigree parent, a mixture of the two, or even, as in this instance, nothing like either of it's pedigree parents - you would never in a million years say these dogs were even related - if they both ended up in rescue - one would go down as a Collie, the other probably a Cocker / Poodle cross - BOTH would be wrong.

A Lab x miniature Poodle could look like a mix, like a Lab of Poodle size, or a Poodle of Lab size - and this is another problem - because people have a perception of what the dog should look like, and if it doesn't meet that perception - some will rehome for what really is a flimsy reason  again, many of these dogs will never be identified as having Poodle in them.

I've seen Lab / Poodle crosses that look like Water Spaniells - I've seen Lab / Poodle crosses that almost fit more into the softer haired terrier categories.

I've seen Lab x (other parent unknown) - that you would defy anyone to say are anything other than pure Lab.

I've seen supposed Lab pedigrees I would say look more like Staffies / Vizlas / Whippets than Labs - and that further complicates the issue - because some of these 'supposed' pedigree dogs, are then bred with Poodles to produce Labradoodles - so it's not beyond the realms of possibility where there are other crosses involved that you would have absolutely no way of knowing there was Poodle in there.

A Rescue will label what it sees - and as statistically - around 50% will follow the size, appearance and characteristics of one parent rather than another - there could easily be many many crosses in rescue being identified as poorly bred pedigrees / other crosses - this is the invisible side of the cross-breeding / poor quality pure breeding world that many don't see 

====================================

My opinions on deliberate cross-breeding are well known - my initial response on this thread would have been identical to anyone with a Lab size breed - because that's what I breed and what I know (not even mentioning the 'cross' issue - but more the basic lack of knowledge of very fundamental issues).

I have nothing against any dog whatever it's breeding - I am not sure I can say the same for the breeders, and I Hope I have actively tried to help a few people who do have a real passion for these crosses and openly admit they don't want them 'standardised' and actualy like the unpredictability of what they will get

THAT is honesty (something that even if I don't agree with, I can respect) - sadly, many of the factors and advertising strategies used to sell these pups most certainly are not


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Tried to rep you Swarthy, but it wouldn't let me, you'll have to stop posting such good responses


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Tried to rep you Swarthy, but it wouldn't let me, you'll have to stop posting such good responses


Awwww - you do say the nicest things 

Seriously though - I suspect the reason more of these crosses aren't documented in rescue is because where the dogs actually "do what they say on the tin" and fit the mould of what a x Poodle would be like - they stay put - it's the ones that don't fit the mould that will do and as above, Rescues will label what they see - and that may well not be any type of curly headed crosses.

We were at a show on Saturday and sharing a ring with a lot of the terrier breeds - to the untrained eye - it would be very difficult to distinguish some of these dogs from the longer haired Lab / Poodle crosses with their wavy hair and non poodle / Lab faces.

As an exanple - these pictures linked direct to their sites of different dogs / crosses - I am not saying these are typical of their breed / cross - but the similarities would be difficult to distinguish to the untrained eye - all undeniably cute - but if they don't grow to be what the owner expected 














































In a similar way to dog crosses - I've seen mixed race babies born from the same parents - some are white, some are light brown, others are the same colour as the darker parent - my daughter's partner was born in the Phillipines - he looks like it - his sister OTOH is white. (same parents - fillipino mum, western dad)


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> That's because I move in working gundog circles and knowing many, many in the gundog world I can say that a poodle would not be a choice even as a pet. I do know of a couple of kennels (one well known - or should I say infamous) for having a poodle stud and they breed the poodle crosses purely for financial reasons.
> 
> There is a reason why poodles are no longer used as gundogs
> And personally, I can't see any good reason to breed a dog whose charateristics are being big floppy and daft


I dont like big floppy and daft either but many people do. I dont like lots of dog types but a lot of people do. I think I am keener on labradoodles and cockapoos because they are more established but they got ridiculous in price without actually making an attempt at standardising the type and still breeding first crosses which seems a bit odd.

As for poodles, you either love them or not. Too many people think they are wimps and not 'proper' dogs. My mini is the best ratter I have ever owned and my first standard had many relatives working as gun dogs and she showed every sign that she would have been good.
I once rehomed a very pretty white standard to a young couple with kids. The bloke was very macho and was having nothing to do with her. I had a phone call from the wife the evening they took her to say that he had invited all his friends round to admire her 

I can quite see how they would not be popular as gundogs though. The coat care would be ridiculous and it would be hard to find a line that would be likely to work and I think they are probably less attentive and more easily distracted than labs etc.

Am I right or is there other reasons.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> As for poodles, you either love them or not. Too many people think they are wimps and not 'proper' dogs.


I know this is going WAY OT - but how can anyone thing a Poodle is not a proper dog - they are fab dogs - all sizes - hardy, intelligent and great to be around. (some informal tests have shown Poods and Labs to be two of the most intelligent breeds)

There is one reason, and one reason only I won't buy a Poodle, and that is because my hobby is showing - and I'm afraid I cannot be a$$ed with all the messing around with coats etc for it to be suitable for the showring - but if I was solely looking for a good pet - then a Poodle would be pretty high on my list every time (although not sure my OH would be so keen on the idea - which probably does re-enforce the unfair stereotype that goes with this lovely breed)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I know this is going WAY OT - but how can anyone thing a Poodle is not a proper dog - they are fab dogs - all sizes - hardy, intelligent and great to be around. *(some informal tests have shown Poods and Labs to be two of the most intelligent breeds) *
> 
> There is one reason, and one reason only I won't buy a Poodle, and that is because my hobby is showing - and I'm afraid I cannot be a$$ed with all the messing around with coats etc for it to be suitable for the showring - but if I was solely looking for a good pet - then a Poodle would be pretty high on my list every time (although not sure my OH would be so keen on the idea - which probably does re-enforce the unfair stereotype that goes with this lovely breed)


And possibly one of the initial reasons for the Labradoodle cross as an assistance dog, other than the possibility of introducing a low moulting coat, after all, poodles aren't the only low moulting breed available for this cross.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I ain't even going to bother to read the posts since I was last on as just a couple have given me the gist as to where this is going or should I say gone 

I just wish some of you weren't on this forum as you obviously only care about your own dogs and any other sweet lil pups can just go to he'll can't they? You were reminded in the second post that the pups were here and to please offer helpful advice but here you go again!

Call yourselves dog lovers? Like f***ing he'll you are! Let's hope none of these innocent pups die because of your cold, calculated posts! 

This could be such a nice forum but not while certain people remain and before you start gobbling off about supporting bad breeding - THESE PUPS ARE ALREADY HERE!!!!


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Well done Malmum, you are totally right, the pups are here already & nothing can change that, the OP waned advise to help the mother of the litter with a problem since the birth but people just can't be helpful even when nothing can be done to change what has happened, I wish people would be more helpful on the forum regarding pregnant dogs & litters arriving instead of shooting everyone down everytime.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I ain't even going to bother to read the posts since I was last on as just a couple have given me the gist as to where this is going or should I say gone
> 
> I just wish some of you weren't on this forum as you obviously only care about your own dogs and any other sweet lil pups can just go to he'll can't they? You were reminded in the second post that the pups were here and to please offer helpful advice but here you go again!
> 
> ...


Hold on a second - advice HAS been given on food / raising / caring - and YES - the pups are already here - BUT - the OP says they have done their research and ideally equipped to raise a litter of pups, this thread proves the exact opposite

WE CAN ALL SHOUT - I don't give a monkey's nuts what they are breeding to be quite frank if they are doing things properly -

A VN and a KC ABS and fundamentals such as weighing pups and feeding mum are unknowns


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Call yourselves dog lovers? Like f***ing he'll you are! Let's hope none of these innocent pups die because of your cold, calculated posts!


And YOU call yourself a dog lover???????

Statistics on Dogs killed in UK Pounds - Sighthounds Online forums

It is irrelevant whether the pups are here or not - if you support such breeding practices you are PART of the problem 

Oh, and as for using inflammatory accusations that innocent puppies will die  the OP supposedly has an accredted breeder for a FIL - she chose to come on here because she wants to do it on her own! - sorry to correct you, but if anything happens to the pups, it is not the responsibility of anyone on this forum  :mad2:


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I ain't even going to bother to read the posts since I was last on as just a couple have given me the gist as to where this is going or should I say gone
> 
> I just wish some of you weren't on this forum as you obviously only care about your own dogs and any other sweet lil pups can just go to he'll can't they? You were reminded in the second post that the pups were here and to please offer helpful advice but here you go again!
> 
> ...


i thought everything was going so well i havent seen anything nasty here only published facts it`s these types of posts that disintegrate a topic into a full blown slanging match


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The pups are here and help has been asked for, nothing anyone says will change that and some sefl opinionated poster/s while sounding good and oh so knowledgeable decides the best thing to do is slag off the op and send her packing - AGAIN!!

Well done, how very helpful to those pups and the bitch. Tanya puts you all to shame and knocks each one of you into a cocked hat. :thumbup1:

For what it's worth the op has my e mail add and is welcome to advice from me if she wishes, or even just someone to let off steam to if she feels overwhelmed. She is the only poster of interest to me here and as of now I won't be looking on this thread again. :frown2:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> The pups are here and help has been asked for, nothing anyone says will change that and some sefl opinionated poster/s while sounding good and oh so knowledgeable decides the best thing to do is slag off the op and send her packing - AGAIN!!
> 
> Well done, how very helpful to those pups and the bitch. Tanya puts you all to shame and knocks each one of you into a cocked hat. :thumbup1:
> 
> For what it's worth the op has my e mail add and is welcome to advice from me if she wishes, or even just someone to let off steam to if she feels overwhelmed. She is the only poster of interest to me here and as of now I won't be looking on this thread again. :frown2:


It's a good job because you have VERY selective reading - there has been a fair bit of good advice given on food, diet, weaning etc - the OP themselves raised the fact that their FIL was an AB and that they were a veterinary nurse - both of which you would have thought (clearly wrongly) would mean they understand the very basics of nutrition and the need to monitor new born pups - but that's being unkind / horrible - in fact - I don't think x-breeds were even referred to until about the third / fourth page. 

Anyone who thinks it's right to intentionally have a litter when they don't know even the basics and then has the audacity to criticise others for calling themselves dog lovers 

====================================

I've seen far more advanced questions being asked by people who have found themselves being lumbered with pregnant bitches - before those pups are even on the ground.

The OP's FIL is an AB, that means they SHOULD reach certain standards - what gaps and advice can you fill in that this person can't 

In some ways this is even more concerning than the "Harry met Sally because I didn't realise they were in season attitude of some posters" - at least they admit they made a mistake and do try their damndest to get as much information as possible BEFORE the babies are born 

The advice HAS been given - if you think it hasn't - you clearly have selectively read to give you maximum opportunity to lambast those who really do care about people breeding responsibly


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

But why did the x poodle discussion have to start with people making it sound like they shouldn't be bred at all :S That isn't aimed at you either swarthy, but I did notice some comments from a member making it sound like they are pointless etc & I don't appreciate it, just because some people wouldn't choose that breed doesn't mean others wouldn't, I wouldn't go round saying things & judging breeds that I don't have experience with so I don't understand why some do when it comes to crossbreeds, I think those people should just keep their opinions to that to themselves as there's no need.

& i'm glad she did get the advice & help she needed before people started being harsher as at least she did benefit, but if people had continued to be kind then she could have stayed & asked anymore questions if she felt necessary which no she will no do because yet again some people manage to scare people away for the fear of more abuse in such matters. I just don't see the point in this after a litter has been brought into the world as nothing can be changed :/


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Malmum has a good point.

There is a third way. We don't have to

a) condone unethical breeding
OR
b) blast unethical breeders

There is 

c) educate people who don't know that there is a better way.

Education is both more difficult and more effective. We all want what's best for the dogs so let's educate people who breed. Offer help, that's for the existing dogs/puppies. If they're already here and need help, it's THE DOGS who need help. THEN let's explain, kindly, where things can be improved by saying things like "my dogs are health tested because....".

Guys this WORKS. It's changing attitudes not forcing people to run away feeling hurt and defensive. It's for the dogs' sakes.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2011)

LauraIzPops said:


> But why did the x poodle discussion have to start with people making it sound like they shouldn't be bred at all :S That isn't aimed at you either swarthy, but I did notice some comments from a member making it sound like they are pointless etc & I don't appreciate it, just because some people wouldn't choose that breed doesn't mean others wouldn't, I wouldn't go round saying things & judging breeds that I don't have experience with so I don't understand why some do when it comes to crossbreeds, I think those people should just keep their opinions to that to themselves as there's no need.
> 
> & i'm glad she did get the advice & help she needed before people started being harsher as at least she did benefit, but if people had continued to be kind then she could have stayed & asked anymore questions if she felt necessary which no she will no do because yet again some people manage to scare people away for the fear of more abuse in such matters. I just don't see the point in this after a litter has been brought into the world as nothing can be changed :/


i cant see anything remotely offensive within any of those posts no one said anything until the op mentioned the acredited breeders scheme


ozrex said:


> Malmum has a good point.
> 
> There is a third way. We don't have to
> 
> ...


unethical breeding should be highlighted everywhere , we owe that at least to the thousands of dogs who pay with their lives at every pound across the uk in situations where homes cannot be found , i`m not saying this is what has happened in this case all the health tests have been published as far as i can see , so at least well done there
understand ultimately its the dogs that need help , but i feel for those who have experience of breeding to feel as if they are constantly banging there heads up against brick walls. imo NO dogs should be being bred right now regardless of breed , not with the current rescue crisis , more dogs are being handed in everyday , more than anyone can cope with , rescues are bursting that is a well documented fact , everywhere on the internet , on the news , even established breeders can`t find homes for their dogs , many still waiting for puppy buyers months down the line after those litters are born.
the problem is people don`t research if they did they wouldn`t find themselves in this section of the forum asking for help , asking the most basic of questions even a vet nurse should know.
if people are being offended by words on a screen then maybe this isn`t the place for them.
trying to educate some doesnt always work , i`ve been on some places were the same people are back asking the same old questions 6 months later because they`ve decided it would be a fabulous idea to breed back to back sadly most do it more than once , that is a fact , ultimately it IS the dogs that suffer.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

This is completely OT but I would just like to say my friend has a working Poodle which is used during hunts. Maybe this is only being done in the US but I know some breeders there are trying to breed Poodles a lttle more suited to their original purpose. They probably don't do so well in the show ring (unless you are the only Standard Poodle as he is in Thailand  ) but look a bit more substantial.

I have never bred and probably never will and reading this section has educated me beyond belief! So much so I am willing to say I will *never* breed but who knows 100% in the future? But I do think some people have been incredibly lucky to have their life experiences and help whereas the majority of people are not so lucky! I know enough to know having 1 litter is not essential for every bitch but I did not know the problems with spaying early. I have learnt a lot but still have much to learn. I think good advice was given by the majority of posters in a calm and helpful manner but it did become a bit inflammatory as these threads tend to!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> But why did the x poodle discussion have to start with people making it sound like they shouldn't be bred at all :S That isn't aimed at you either swarthy, but I did notice some comments from a member making it sound like they are pointless etc & I don't appreciate it, just because some people wouldn't choose that breed doesn't mean others wouldn't, I wouldn't go round saying things & judging breeds that I don't have experience with so I don't understand why some do when it comes to crossbreeds, I think those people should just keep their opinions to that to themselves as there's no need.
> 
> & i'm glad she did get the advice & help she needed before people started being harsher as at least she did benefit, but if people had continued to be kind then she could have stayed & asked anymore questions if she felt necessary which no she will no do because yet again some people manage to scare people away for the fear of more abuse in such matters. I just don't see the point in this after a litter has been brought into the world as nothing can be changed :/


The only person who can answer why they have bred this litter and any others, is the OP. I mentioned contracts specifically, because I feel even if you are only breeding for the 'Pet Market', you owe it to the pups you breed, to ensure they never end up in rescue and contribute towards the rescue crisis. If you knowingly allow those pups to go off, and don't keep in touch, then I'm afraid that's unethical breeding, and something I, and many others on here don't support. I'm not saying that's what the OP intends, but that's my view on breeding for the pet market. All dogs bred deserve the highest standard of lifetime support from the breeder, they are the ones that chose to bring them into this world.



ozrex said:


> Malmum has a good point.
> 
> There is a third way. We don't have to
> 
> ...


There are bound to be varying opinions, to be honest, I most likely don't agree with this litter, but I've come from the point of view the pups are here, so try and do the best for them, hence the advice re food and contracts. And the basic info which wasn't directly aimed at the OP, more for the thread as a whole, but to advise about health tests and their importance.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I think there have been some very informative and helpful posts on this thread, we could all say ooohhh, let's look at the fluffy puppies, personally, I'd rather say let's look at this dog in 15 year's time, in a loving home, with the breeder KNOWING where they are exactly, having followed their life from birth to the end and helping the owner, or owners should the dog have to have been rehomed at some point, and with all their queries re health and welfare.

It does seem odd to me as well that a veterinary nurse and daughter in law of an ABS member, chooses to come on here for advice. That advice has been given, and I've seen much worse threads than this one, and much worse forums, it's up to the individual person whether they choose to take the criticism on the chin and learn from the more experienced members on here, and I do not include myself in that statement, I'm still learning too.

I find it totally distasteful that people expect us to sweep aside our ethics just because there are puppies, so what, anyone can breed a litter of puppies, it's how they go about it that counts. Everyone starts somewhere, it's whether they choose to learn that counts, and for what it's worth, yes I bl**dy well do love my dogs, and care about dogs overall, and the rescue crisis, which is why three of the charities I donate to from my business are dog related


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

diablo said:


> i cant see anything remotely offensive within any of those posts no one said anything until the op mentioned the acredited breeders scheme


Agreed - from what I can see - the discussion went on from someone raising the fact that they had struggled to find "Poodle Crosses" in rescue - all this led onto was discussion and evidence that Poodle Crosses are not always easily identifiable - and the fact that some of them actually look, to the untrained eye, not dissimilar to certain pedigree dogs.

Similarly, it was pointed out that crosses can look like either parent - and that poorly bred pedigrees often look like crosses they are not - none of that was antagonistic or nasty about the breeding of these crosses - it was simply highlighting the facts - facts that I've faced very very recently with two lovely litter sister crosses who not one person on this site would distinguish as being sisters - and one of them not even a cross- whereas the other could easily pass as being a cross of two breeds which are non-existent in her

That's not criticism - that's healthy debate - threads go OT every day - but those who own these crosses get defensive thinking that's being critical - when in fact - within this thread - there has been very little criticism on this subject - what there HAS been justifiably criticism of is that the parties involved should surely have had better knowledge of such basic elements of breeding

=================================

Everyone is learning - I'm no expert - I get it wrong - people who've been doing it for years can sometimes get it wrong - people often ask for help - there's nothing wrong with that - we all assimilate information and then use the bits that work for us - that's human nature.

BUT - here -there is rock bottom basic knowledge missing where it really shouldn't be - this isn't "arthur and martha" who got together out on a walk / house visit and was missed until the bitch was 8 weeks pregnant, this is a seemingly planned litter between two KC registered pedigree health-tested dogs, one owned by a AB, the other by a Veterinary nurse.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't / can't ask questions, as above - we all learn from others - but what it does mean (to me at least) is that they should have the very basic knowledge - and throughout the course of this thread, it has quickly become evident they don't - and that is something which will always concern people


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> But why did the x poodle discussion have to start with people making it sound like they shouldn't be bred at all :S That isn't aimed at you either swarthy, but I did notice some comments from a member making it sound like they are pointless etc & I don't appreciate it, just because some people wouldn't choose that breed doesn't mean others wouldn't, I wouldn't go round saying things & judging breeds that I don't have experience with so I don't understand why some do when it comes to crossbreeds, I think those people should just keep their opinions to that to themselves as there's no need.
> 
> & i'm glad she did get the advice & help she needed before people started being harsher as at least she did benefit, but if people had continued to be kind then she could have stayed & asked anymore questions if she felt necessary which no she will no do because yet again some people manage to scare people away for the fear of more abuse in such matters. I just don't see the point in this after a litter has been brought into the world as nothing can be changed :/


People come on here for advice , sadly they do it after they have had the litter. Those of us that replied care about dogs very much its our passion , we do research before we breed, health tests etc. many many hours go into planning our litters if and when we have one.We don't just put any dog to any dog. To read that AB has allowed his dog to mate a different breed to create a cross is VERY unethical imo.However whats done is done.

There are VERY MANY experienced breeders on this forum who are only to willing to give advice and do, Swarthy in particular goes to great lengths to reply to some posts. so Malmum to single out one as helpful i think is grossly unfair !


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> But why did the x poodle discussion have to start with people making it sound like they shouldn't be bred at all :S That isn't aimed at you either swarthy, but I did notice some comments from a member making it sound like they are pointless etc & I don't appreciate it, just because some people wouldn't choose that breed doesn't mean others wouldn't, I wouldn't go round saying things & judging breeds that I don't have experience with so I don't understand why some do when it comes to crossbreeds, I think those people should just keep their opinions to that to themselves as there's no need.
> 
> & i'm glad she did get the advice & help she needed before people started being harsher as at least she did benefit, but if people had continued to be kind then she could have stayed & asked anymore questions if she felt necessary which no she will no do because yet again some people manage to scare people away for the fear of more abuse in such matters. I just don't see the point in this after a litter has been brought into the world as nothing can be changed :/


Some people have strong ethics when it comes to breeding, and having a valid reason to put a bitch through a pregnancy is very important....likewise breeders need to have knowledge about breeding to minimise risk...yet some dont even have the basic knowledge.. So its not about having experience of a breed at all...you dont ever have had to own a dog to have an opinion on breeding them, no ones against crosses, ive had 2 myself...all dogs are wonderful.

caring is not 'pedigree snobbery' Laura, people feel exactly the same about _Any_ dog bred irresponsibly....dosent matter if its cross breed _or_ pure breed. My blood boils when i see all the free ads of my own breed the Siberian Husky, because i know the vast majority are bred unethically:mad5:

and i agree with Dexter, ive seen all the folk with breeding knowledge on this thread offer loads of advice over the years....and DD for example, has on several occasions, even sat up through the night advising and guiding people over the phone when their bitches were whelping.

.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I've stayed out of this as others have given good advice. But lets play nicely, lol! 

Yes, the pups are here and the OP has asked for advice, which has been given. Perhaps we ought to give advice on the thread and leave it at that, hoping the OP will stick around and learn more stuff as she becomes accustomed to the forum and does some mooching about. Plenty of opportunity to educate on the ethics etc etc of breeding dogs laters.

And actually having a litter on the ground is a huge learning curve in itself!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I think there have been some very informative and helpful posts on this thread, we could all say ooohhh, let's look at the fluffy puppies, personally, I'd rather say let's look at this dog in 15 year's time, in a loving home, with the breeder KNOWING where they are exactly, having followed their life from birth to the end and helping the owner, or owners should the dog have to have been rehomed at some point, and with all their queries re health and welfare.
> 
> ...


There are ways of giving advice and there is being downright rude. The first few posts were helpful and polite and it then degenerated. Why not just answer the questions that the OP was asking instead of lecturing her about contracts etc.
If you feel so strongly about it then link to a sticky thread so that the poster can educate themselves by reading it and not being verbally abused and going off and learning nothing.

I am a retired veterinary nurse and I can assure you that a vet nurse will have no experience of a normal litter on the ground. When I had my first litter I knew nothing about the normality of it because I had only seen the abnormal bits. But I had common sense, a good knowledge of dogs and nothing was going to be missed.
I probably have far more veterinary knowledge than the majority on here but I am out of date with small animal work so I will ask on here. Even if I was working still I could still learn from others experiences. No one knows it all and it is good to share if it can be done nicely.
As for the OPs father in law - we have no idea how they get on, how he keeps his dogs or whether he has already given excellent advice that she wanted backed up or challenged on here.

I think it is about time that it was accepted that probably at least 90percent of litters and possibly much more are bred 'unethically' but the majority of these bitches and puppies do very well and go on to become the pets of thousands of people like the majority of the dog owners on this forum. there just are not enough 'ethically' bred pups to go around.
So great, try and educate breeders but do not slate them for doing what is considered normal everywhere but in the minds of a vocal minority on this forum.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Call yourselves dog lovers? Like f***ing he'll you are! Let's hope none of these innocent pups die because of your cold, calculated posts!


Flipping heck you talk about others post, and then come on with this tone!
- Fact is dogs die because of heartless breeders, that breed them not the folk that disapprove an can only dream of the days that ethical breeding is the ONLY breeding taking place.  Us that care for responsible breeding dont and wont ever have the death of puppies on our hands, cant be said for those that support the irresponsible though :skep:

But then again I doubt its you holding the poor lives that are pts because no one else wants them, you know the cute little puppies that are 'here'. - That turns you bitter to anyone breeding for less than ethical reasons, believe me. - and to be honest those that have tried not to support this breeder on this thread have nothing to be ashamed of, if more people tried not to - we no doubt would see a change in what was seen acceptable.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Flipping heck you talk about others post, and then come on with this tone!
> - Fact is dogs die because of heartless breeders, that breed them not the folk that disapprove an can only dream of the days that ethical breeding is the ONLY breeding taking place.  Us that care for responsible breeding dont and wont ever have the death of puppies on our hands, cant be said for those that support the irresponsible though :skep:
> 
> But then again I doubt its you holding the poor lives that are pts because no one else wants them, you know the cute little puppies that are 'here'. - That turns you bitter to anyone breeding for less than ethical reasons, believe me. - and to be honest those that have tried not to support this breeder on this thread have nothing to be ashamed of, if more people tried not to - we no doubt would see a change in what was seen acceptable.


DD every time you (or your mother) breed a litter you have the risk of the death of puppies and the bitch - yet you choose to breed. Sods law is that there are probably more deaths with an ethical sort of litter than the average pet owners litters. You are breeding a fairly specialist breed that has small litters so it is unlikely your breed will end up in rescue but no contract stops anyone breeding or rehoming their puppy however 'ethical' the breeder thinks they are.

Just back off - accept that opinions do differ and as I said earlier just point new breeders in the direction of an informative sticky thread instead of pointing them in the opposite direction to the forum.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> DD every time you (or your mother) breed a litter you have the risk of the death of puppies and the bitch - yet you choose to breed. Sods law is that there are probably more deaths with an ethical sort of litter than the average pet owners litters. You are breeding a fairly specialist breed that has small litters so it is unlikely your breed will end up in rescue but no contract stops anyone breeding or rehoming their puppy however 'ethical' the breeder thinks they are.
> 
> Just back off - accept that opinions do differ and as I said earlier just point new breeders in the direction of an informative sticky thread instead of pointing them in the opposite direction to the forum.


Of course, you cant change nature - sometimes things are not meant to be! - all we can do is our best. Im also aware what can go wrong with breeding, shame most on here dont.

- However I am not talking about that, I am talking about dogs who are PTS because they are sold to unsuitable homes, have been dumped - spent to long in rescue ect!

unlikely our breed will end up in rescue? are you kidding :frown2: - currently we have 4 fosters in, 3 from breed rescue. (in our home alone) & after christmas numbers will double.

and as for backing off, I dont think so - after all its the dogs I care about, not the breeders or what folk on here make of me - just remember googles a good tool, and alot on here dont give their true stories


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I know you care about dogs - that is why I suggest you back off and point people in the right direction of a sticky or a book. Because your attitude is alienating the very people that could be helped and that is such a shame.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

DD (& one or two others too) - as soon as there is a mention of crossbreed the red mist descends, anyone who has been around PF for a fairly short time knows your views and that it offends your ethics. You are quite entitled to your opinions but I don't understand why you then get involved at all, you cannot force everyone to share your views so it doesn't really achieve anything. The reasons people make choices are many and varied and you do not know their reasons.

If you can't just comment on breeding threads where they do meet your standards and feel you have to say something, why can't you just restrict yourself to _"I do not approve of crossbreeding its unethical; I do not approve of anyone breeding unless they show or work its unethical; I do not approve of anyone breeding who does not meet my standards its unethical_"

The OP has said this is her first litter so has not contributed to the current rescue situation you feel so passionately about - may or may not with these ten pups who knows you haven't actually asked. she has done health tests, has an approved breeder in the background and may already have vetted homes for all you know and may well have contracts for all you know. Does not appear to meet the knowledge levels some think necessary - I would say give the poor lady a break could just be sudden nerves/doubting herself.

Your opinion on my dog & whether he should exist is totally irrelevant to me the only thing I do find irritating is the assumption (not just by you I add) that crossbreed automatically means bad breeding/no health tests/all end in rescue without bothering to POLITELY ask the questions first. Alternatively if you read the pedigree breeding threads its all nicey nicey ask the questions first - why the double standards, bad breeders are bad whatever they are producing.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> DD (& one or two others too) - as soon as there is a mention of crossbreed the red mist descends


This has nothing to do with breeding crossbreeds, the concern would be the same if the pups were purebreed.



> she has done health tests,


She says she has done the health tests and maybe she has, but people do lie about such things.



> has an approved breeder in the background


an accredited breeder who has gone against the rules of being an accredited breeder so doesn't say much about them



> Does not appear to meet the knowledge levels some think necessary


No on basic knowledge and while I don't expect anyone in the veterinary profession to be experts in breeding (I've said many times that the vet is the last person I would ask advice for when breeding unless they were specialists in the area or it was to do with something medical) but basic information on good nutrition I would expect.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> an accredited breeder who has gone against the rules of being an accredited breeder so doesn't say much about them


Freely admit I don't know that much about the rules but someone else said they reported an accredited breeder to KC and was told it was "frowned on" so does that mean its not actually against the rules? From what I read too was accredited for other breed not the poodle, does that make a difference?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I think we can safely say that the op has been pointed in the right direction as far as food for her bitch and weaning etc, thread is now going swiftly downhill and so will be closed


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