# bull terrier breeding help me please ..............



## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

I am considering buying a dog for stud as i dont think my older bull terrier will be up to it when the time comes I can buy a lovely dog whos huge and a very nice tri colour wich is very saught after, the only fault there is with him is that hes undershot slightly !? you cant realy notice it to much because his lips cover it ! but when i pull his mouth open obviously you can notice it ! Should this affect weather i breed from him ! what i am trying to say is would pups that come from him allso be udershot ?? he is one huge specimen of a bull terrier for only 8months ! anybody know whats the outcome of breeding from him! thanks garryd .


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> I am considering buying a dog for stud as i dont think my older bull terrier will be up to it when the time comes I can buy a lovely dog whos huge and a very nice tri colour wich is very saught after, the only fault there is with him is that hes undershot slightly !? you cant realy notice it to much because his lips cover it ! but when i pull his mouth open obviously you can notice it ! Should this affect weather i breed from him ! what i am trying to say is would pups that come from him allso be udershot ?? he is one huge specimen of a bull terrier for only 8months ! anybody know whats the outcome of breeding from him! thanks garryd .


Most owners of bitches which they breed from usually go to a Stud dog.You can use the best available dog which suit your bitches lines,& compliment her in areas she's lacks.I wouldn't consider using a dog with an undershot mouth as that is a fault and may possibly come through in the pups.

Is your bitch KC'd and has she been shown.How do you know she's suitable quality to breed from?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

my bitch is from creddetta show stock is kced with 26 champions in her bloodline ! I did ask few people the same thing last night and i was told differnt things and contridicting opinions  now things still aint any clear!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> my bitch is from creddetta show stock is kced with 26 champions in her bloodline ! I did ask few people the same thing last night and i was told differnt things and contridicting opinions  now things still aint any clear!


Breeding is a minefield to be honest,Are you still in touch with your bitches Breeder,It may be a good starting point,they should be able to point you in the right direction of suitable studs that compliment your girl and ones that are suitable regarding bloodlines.

As I said I personally wouldn't use a dog with an undershot mouth,also at 8 months he is still a baby so hasn't matured properly.I would use a dog that is a proven stud and throws good quality offspring with proven results within the showring.


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## Solitaire (Jan 6, 2008)

Breeding should be to improve the breed, therefore I would not use a dog that carries any faults.

Just my opinion.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> my bitch is from creddetta show stock is kced with 26 champions in her bloodline ! I did ask few people the same thing last night and i was told differnt things and contridicting opinions  now things still aint any clear!


I have a youngster who has both parents and all four grandparents as champions yet she will never be a top winner, (though her sister already has a RCC from the puppy classes). Mine is suitable for breeding from for her positive traits and bloodlines (I TRAVELLED ABROAD TO MATE HER MOTHER).

No matter how good the pedigree the individual needs to be assessed for their quality or lack of. Only about 10% of any pups bred are of the quality to be used for breeding, it is called selection, in nature it would be survival of the fittest, and we use other criteria, type temperament and health.

Has your bitch been Hip scored yet? Has she been BAER hearing tested if this wasn't done when she was a puppy (you should have been given a copy of the certificate if she was). If your bitch is partially deaf (which you would never know without testing) then she has a higher chance of producing deaf pups in her litter, which she could anyway.

I am assuming her temperament is steady as a rock, as otherwise you should never even think of breeding.

I would also show your bitch to see how she compares against her peers.

At shows you will be able to see the top dogs around and see which dogs produce the pups you most admire, especially if their mothers have similar breeding to your girl.

Join your breed club and read the literature available. Past yearbooks are a great source for research. You will see photos of your bitches ancestors, Be a bale to visually see their good and bad points. Get to know their owners and breeders who can tell you more about them.

Once you have this background knowledge, proved the quality of your bitch and had her health tests, you can think about responsible breeding. By then you should have several mentors in your breed who will be all to happy to help when they see you are committed to the welfare of the breed.

If thsi soudns al too much liek ahrd work(it is) then enjoy your bitch, and fi you feel you want another go to a good breeder who will ahve doen all this for you and get another well bred puppy.

Just wanted to add you should never breed from a dog with a mouth fault, this trait will later plague future generations and you can bet it will appear in the best pups, by sods law.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

i spoke to bullyveiw today who are one of the top breeders in the uk ! They told me that allthough that its not ideal and it would be better if his jaw wasnt undershot ! he could still be used as a stud dog as long as he was bred with abitch whom had a perfect bight! They all so said that you can even have a bitch and a dog with a perfect bight that will produce undershot or overshot pups! the world is not allways even!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> i spoke to bullyveiw today who are one of the top breeders in the uk ! They told me that allthough that its not ideal and it would be better if his jaw wasnt undershot ! he could still be used as a stud dog as long as he was bred with abitch whom had a perfect bight! They all so said that you can even have a bitch and a dog with a perfect bight that will produce undershot or overshot pups! the world is not allways even!


The main reason that dogs are produced from parents with good bites with poor ones is because someone did use dogs with poor bites back in the lines and it Will always out in the end.

there is no reason to use a dog with such a fault when there are exceptional dogs that do not have this fault that could be used instead. That is what selective breeding is about increasing the probability of getting the desired characteristics not taking unnecessary risks of producing faults.

The only justification for using a dog with such a fault would be if he was so outstanding, the last of his line without the benefit of his genes the breed would loose something vitally important. Then the breeders will have to work hard to eradicate the fault when it next appears.

Better not to introduce it into your lines (or double up on it for all you know it could be there already).

The greatest authority on the Bullterrier is largely agreed to be a Mr Raymond H. Oppenheimer.

Here are some of his comments on breeding on a Friends website: Aritaur Dobermanns - Breeding he is quoted about half way down the page.

The first two points I think make things clear: 
Raymond H. Oppenheimer wrote: 
1. Remember that the animals you select for breeding today will have an impact on the breed for many years to come. Keep that thought firmly in mind when you choose breeding stock. 
2. You can choose only two individuals per generation. Choose only the best, because you will have to wait for another generation to improve what you start with. Breed only if you expect the progeny to be better than both parents.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

i did stess my conserns to bullyveiw who said In a perfect world with perfect parents would we all be perfect ????????? thats not allways the case is it!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

dh.dti said:


> No you are right, its not always the case, me personally i would find a stud with a true bite


Yep with 3,361 puppies registered with the Kennel Club in 2006 alone there is bound to be one with a correct bite, as well as having other desirable qualities, and having already been hip scored (can't be done under a year of age) and hearing tested.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Whats the point in using a stud with a less then perfect mouth on a bitch that has correct bite? It WILL come through the lines - faults always do - find yourself a better stud to use and I echo about tests etc being done before even thinking of breeding. Have you shown her or is it something you would be interested in doing?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

I do people breed dogs!??/


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

does the money help !!??


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

as i went to a breeders house tonight who had some awsome dogs and he admited to me that allthough he loves th breed ,he does it for the money ! ?? does this make him a good breeder???


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> as i went to a breeders house tonight who had some awsome dogs and he admited to me that allthough he loves th breed ,he does it for the money ! ?? does this make him a good breeder???


Definatly Not!
Breeding when done properly does not make you money.

So if that was the sole purpose I would avoid like the plague.Breeding should be done to improve the breed,further lines etc,not for money.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> I do people breed dogs!??/


I assume you mean why do people breed dogs?

It should be to improve/maintain the breed.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Breeding for gain financially is wrong - breeding to improve your breed and lines should be the only time a litter should be born!!!
After paying the stud fee - extra food - bedding, scissors, paper etc etc ( All the things you need to have ready for the birth ) The puppy food and milk etc - injections - extra heating blah blah - not forgetting the health tests to be done before all this and the scans etc that you may choose to have done - there very rarely is a gain - unless you are skimping on something!!!!!!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> does the money help !!??


The money helps only in allowing a breeder to do so without loosing the roof over their heads, as in offsetting some of the costs of breeding and maintain their line, and with luck pay a show entry or two.

When money becomes the driving force behind breeding then rather than using the best dog available the most convenient or cheapest dog is used.

Health testing is expensive (and might even rule the animal out of breeding) so the breeder opts not to do it. etc etc.

If it was about money friends and I would not have imported a dog who in 6 years has cost us over £10,500 to buy, quarantine, show and keep.

Stud fees, well all but two of his litters were to our own bitches, and even then we paid stud fees into the kitty to be fair to all partners.

He will never cover his costs as with 8 litters sired in a numerically small breed he has had enough influence on the gene pool.

His daughter I flew to Finland (most of the nice young males were her or her mothers close relatives). Flights and stud fee alone were £1700, and I could have ended up with no pups.

As already mentioned the pup I kept is not a bad sort, but no world beater, but the investment was in the new bloodline. If I had the money I would have tried again, as the other 6 pups (five male) were just what I wanted. Sods law all the males have gone to homes not interested in showing, even though 3 said they would.

Most good breeders keep their retired breeding stock so the couple of litters a bitch had are never going to cover the costs of keeping several oldies as they age and their health deteriorates.

The only way to make money breeding is to breed a bitch often, only keep her while she is useful, cut costs on the best food, health tests, stud fees for good dogs. You would also have to do it often thereby again not doing things properly on the rearing and socialisation. Cheap food little time for human contact and individual attention to the bitches let alone the pups.

It is called Puppy farming, and on a smaller scale casual/irresponsible/back yard breeding.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Definatly Not!
> Breeding when done properly does not make you money.
> 
> So if that was the sole purpose I would avoid like the plague.Breeding should be done to improve the breed,further lines etc,not for money.


 so you dont earn any money from it then!?? you do it for free then ..???? pul the other one as its got bells on!


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Have you read all the replies Garry?????? The amount of money spent on doing things the RIGHT way may be recouped once you have sold the pups......
Keep putting the numbers on the lotto - you have a better chance of gaining cash that way!!!!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> so you dont earn any money from it then!?? you do it for free then ..???? pul the other one as its got bells on!


The litter where I flew to Finland cost me £3000, which I just about covered as there were no untoward Vet expenses.

A litter with health tests for the dam and all expenses other than extra utility bills and my time will cost around the £1600 - £1800 mark (I can break that down for you but would be boring).

I had already reared that bitch for 4 years and shown her, and I have no idea how much that cost me (I don't list each ones expenses separately, other than for the litter). My contribution to her sires upkeep and purchase has cost me £2000 in 6 years.

I make a note of the outgoings on the dogs and also puppy sales when I have a litter.

On average, my dogs cost me another £500 over what pups sold for.

I average just under 6 pups in a litter (most often 4 or 7 for some reason) which are now about £550, as is the stud fee.

This is keeping four or five bitches and showing 2 or more at a time. I do not show excessively usually between 12 and 20 shows a year and I share petrol expenses.

I would like to be able to do more shows but cannot afford to, and cannot justify more than I already spend on the dogs.

If I don't have a litter then I have to cut my show expenses down further.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Brainless said:


> The litter where I flew to Finland cost me £3000, which I just about covered as there were no untoward Vet expenses.
> 
> A litter with health tests for the dam and all expenses other than extra utility bills and my time will cost around the £1600 - £1800 mark (I can break that down for you but would be boring).
> 
> ...


 so what do you call the casual dog owner like me that wants to breed his bitch a couple of times in her life time !?? a puppy farmer ??? a back yard breeder ??? or just sombody that loves there dog and would love to have puppys from her!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> so what do you call the casual dog owner like me that wants to breed his bitch a couple of times in her life time !?? a puppy farmer ??? a back yard breeder ??? or just sombody that loves there dog and would love to have puppys from her!


To me that's not a justified reason to breed from a bitch.
There are many things that can & do go wrong.

Ask yourself these questions and be honest when you answer them,

Why do you want to breed?
Have you got the time & room?
Could you hand rear a litter if your bitch refused to?,this means feeding ALL PUPS EVERY 2 HOURS DAY & NIGHT.
Could you take back a puppy you bred at any time during it's life if the owner couldn't keep it?
Are you prepared to keep any pups you can't sell?

Can you afford a litter. Lots of people think of breeding as a way of making money, this is not usually the case, and if things do go wrong you could incur a lot of expenses along the way. The stud fee for the dog, extra food for the bitch during pregnancy and lactation, weaning the puppies, their food this is all normal. What if your bitch needs a call out from the vet at 2am, or a Caesarian in the middle of the night, this can be very costly.

Are you aware of the work involved, lots of lovely puppies making lots of mess as they get older, all very time consuming to keep them clean and preparing 4 to 5 meals a day, watching over them when they are fed, is every puppy getting enough to eat. Weaning them from Mum at the right time.
Finding suitable homes can be a nightmare, all calls needs to be carefully vetted as they are people out there to whom you wouldnt want to sell your puppies too. This can be very time consuming. Every one needs to be carefully vetted, is someone at home most if not all of the day, do the children seem frightened of the dogs, is this a commitment the whole family want to make. If you have any doubts about your prospective homes them dont sell to these people, it is worth hanging one to a puppy until the right family come along.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> To me that's not a justified reason to breed from a bitch.
> There are many things that can & do go wrong.
> 
> Ask yourself these questions and be honest when you answer them,
> ...


 You can sugar coat it all you like but when you run it like a buisness it is a buisness !in my eyes ! A lot of people buy dogs as pets and not to show ! my grandad had bull terriers my dad had bull terriers wich all had lovely pups that was eather sold or went to family they all made cracking dogs and without being shown !


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

So what point are you trying to make then Garry?? That you want to breed from your pet and sell the pups on to make money???


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

i need to breed my bitchs any way as my rolex needs an upgrade this year and an extra holiday wont go a miss


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Hmmmm yeah ok


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> i need to breed my bitchs any way as my rolex needs an upgrade this year and an extra holiday wont go a miss


Why bother asking advice then?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> i need to breed my bitchs any way as my rolex needs an upgrade this year and an extra holiday wont go a miss


This may sound abit thick but, Are u serious? Being sarcastic maybe?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> This may sound abit thick but, Are u serious? Being sarcastic maybe?


I think He's a wind up merchant


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Eolabeo said:


> This may sound abit thick but, Are u serious? Being sarcastic maybe?


i think he is being sarcastic,,,,,i think we should all agree to disagree on this one,,,,,,,,, Garry, let us know what you decide, if you buy a bull for stud,,, or take your bitch to a stud dog,,,, and of course, if you do breed we would like lots of pictures,,,,,,,,,,keep us posted to what you do,,,,,,,


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I think He's a wind up merchant


well that has been said before ! but i did start this thread with best intentions but i have now ucoverd the popus breeders circle and you have been so good for agiggle and dont worry i wont be taking any money out of your pockets with my detailed breeding plans for the future !


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> i think he is being sarcastic,,,,,i think we should all agree to disagree on this one,,,,,,,,, Garry, let us know what you decide, if you buy a bull for stud,,, or take your bitch to a stud dog,,,, and of course, if you do breed we would like lots of pictures,,,,,,,,,,keep us posted to what you do,,,,,,,


Well said collie


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Have you had any probs with Dominance with your dogs yet garryd?


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Eolabeo said:


> Well said collie


does that mean your gonna share your beer with me,, im sick of this tia maria,.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> does that mean your gonna share your beer with me,, im sick of this tia maria,.


Baileys is better


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

LOL ohhhh god no.
I'll swap tho 


im of to cook bacon and egg butty yummehh, see u shortly


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Baileys is better


Baileys is lishhhhh yummm  
toodlez x


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

being serious when the time comes i will probably go to bull-veiw for a stud dog ! i would love to use my old dog but he is 8yrs now and has lost losts of weight as he got older and i dont think hes upto the job in my heart of hearts! just out of intrest up to how old can a dog preform?????


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Garry there are good and bad in every walk of life but alot of members here all agree about breeding ethics - we are not the pompus breeding circle - we are trying to help people become aware of the correct way of breeding......so I hope that it has given you something to think about before breeding to just any dog!!!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> Have you had any probs with Dominance with your dogs yet garryd?


not realy they are as good as gold ! my older dog whos called bully is lovely old boy ! he has more champions than any of the others ! 26 in his bloodlines ! the only thing that worrys me is that hes dad died age just 10 and like i said bully is 8 and a half !


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

he is the one you talk about in the other thread,, right,?????


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> he is the one you talk about in the other thread,, right,?????


 yes thats him heres a video of him in top form age 6 and dont worry hes only playing with me
YouTube - bull terriers infamous locking jaw! my DOG called


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

blimey,, he was making some noise,,,,is he all white with black ears,, he looks a strong b*****,


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> being serious when the time comes i will probably go to bull-veiw for a stud dog ! i would love to use my old dog but he is 8yrs now and has lost losts of weight as he got older and i dont think hes upto the job in my heart of hearts! just out of intrest up to how old can a dog preform?????


I think with the kc club they only alow a male dog to breed up untill the age of nine. donno if its changed or not now.



garryd said:


> not realy they are as good as gold ! my older dog whos called bully is lovely old boy ! he has more champions than any of the others ! 26 in his bloodlines ! the only thing that worrys me is that hes dad died age just 10 and like i said bully is 8 and a half !


I used to have a white male ebt i got from rescue, He was 1 of my first eng bullys, And we named him bully, He was white with black ears aswell.

Wow 10! i know they say a bullys life last about 10 years but i know so many that have lived to see 14-16 years of age, so in a funny kinda way 10 was still youngish.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Just see the vid  He's kicking up quite a noise lol.

To be honest i don't like hyping mine up like that to tell the truth, Specially my solid brindle, She tends to get very hyped up and she donno when to stop so thats a no no in my house hold, i prefer the calmer side to them.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

garryd said:


> so what do you call the casual dog owner like me that wants to breed his bitch a couple of times in her life time !?? a puppy farmer ??? a back yard breeder ??? or just sombody that loves there dog and would love to have puppys from her!


If a jobs worth doing it's worth doing well.

Seems only in dogs do people try to justify doing things badly, and producing sub standard goods.

I might love VW Beetle cars, but I couldn't build, or repair one.

A person breeding has a responsibility first of all to the breed to maintain or where needed improve standards.

Secondly you have a responsibility to your own dogs, then the puppies for their whole lives (not 8weeks) and lastly their new owners.

You should be a knowledgeable resource for them to help them raise and look after the puppies you have taken great care in breeding.

This should explain it: Dog-Play: Use this guide to obtain a quality puppy from a responsible breeder A buyer is entitled to expect the best that can be produced, and after sales service too.

A friend who has bred for over 50 years ans is now retired from breeding has had to take back three dogs she bred in the last year or so who were 9 years and over. She is really no longer in a position to re her health, but she is responsible for them.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

garryd said:


> You can sugar coat it all you like but when you run it like a buisness it is a buisness !in my eyes ! A lot of people buy dogs as pets and not to show ! my grandad had bull terriers my dad had bull terriers wich all had lovely pups that was eather sold or went to family they all made cracking dogs and without being shown !


Really don't understand what your trying to say?

Your talking about running things as a business(making money) we are talking about careful responsible guardianship of our breeds with careful breeding practises. I can't really even call that a hobby but more like a vocation.

What you call breeding is exploitation of the dogs and gullible buyers, both of whom deserve better.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> I think with the kc club they only alow a male dog to breed up untill the age of nine. donno if its changed or not now.


There is no limit to the age a male dog may be used at stud. As a bitch owner I wouldn't take a bitch to a dog over 10 years of age unless eh had very recently sired a litter of good size.

Certainly in my bred that mature late a lot of dogs don't get used until older. A dog I bred sired his first litter at 6 1/2 years old and another last year at 8 1/2.

Sadly some dogs fertility declines early for no apparent reason.

I know of an old boy in my breed who is 13 and sired a litter recently quite unexpectedly, It wasn't exactly planned but the pregnancy was allowed to continue as he brought some very old lines into the bitches newer ones.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> Just see the vid  He's kicking up quite a noise lol.
> 
> To be honest i don't like hyping mine up like that to tell the truth, Specially my solid brindle, She tends to get very hyped up and she donno when to stop so thats a no no in my house hold, i prefer the calmer side to them.


heres a more calmer video of him! hes such a strong swimmer he aint scared of no river lol
YouTube - bully swims in the river severn


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Thats a great vid, Really nice to see them have fun, Specially in the river lol.
He's a lovely looking dog garryd.
My sisters ebt is always up the meadows and river, He can't get enough lol, Mind u he is such a bloody woman, He would'nt hurt a fly on the wall, He runs when the post come's in the door, its so funny to watch him trying to run on the wooden flooring, He don't get nowhere lol.
And why do they insist on bringing home half a bloody tree instead of the normal stick PMSL


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> Thats a great vid, Really nice to see them have fun, Specially in the river lol.
> He's a lovely looking dog garryd.
> My sisters ebt is always up the meadows and river, He can't get enough lol, Mind u he is such a bloody woman, He would'nt hurt a fly on the wall, He runs when the post come's in the door, its so funny to watch him trying to run on the wooden flooring, He don't get nowhere lol.
> And why do they insist on bringing home half a bloody tree instead of the normal stick PMSL


As you like the vids heres another funny one again when he 6yrs !

YouTube - bully leves the park


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

LMAO he sure likes his sticks, wer'nt letting go for love or money haha. great vid garry.

Eric's the same, If he find's a stick he brings it home and plays with it till its virtually rotted away lol.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> LMAO he sure likes his sticks, wer'nt letting go for love or money haha. great vid garry.
> 
> Eric's the same, If he find's a stick he brings it home and plays with it till its virtually rotted away lol.


 yeh mine is the same ! infact when he w as younger, to build his neck up i used to give him a pickaxe handle to take to the park as these were strong hard and dident splinter pluss was heavy-sh to carry so that tired him out ! But i feal so sad as now at 8yrs his will is the same but he just aint as strong love him ! but i will say hes much fitter than both my bitchs !


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

garryd said:


> yeh mine is the same ! infact when he w as younger, to build his neck up i used to give him a pickaxe handle to take to the park as these were strong hard and dident splinter pluss was heavy-sh to carry so that tired him out ! But i feal so sad as now at 8yrs his will is the same but he just aint as strong love him ! but i will say hes much fitter than both my bitchs !


Sounds abit like my old girl, she's 14 and still tears into sticks and anything clingable like she's still a young chick, Yet if we was to walk past and knock her she falls over lol, She can cling on tire's etc but as for walking long distances..no hope  .
Thats the only thing with owning pets, Is watching them grow old and worsen with age .


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> Sounds abit like my old girl, she's 14 and still tears into sticks and anything clingable like she's still a young chick, Yet if we was to walk past and knock her she falls over lol, She can cling on tire's etc but as for walking long distances..no hope  .
> Thats the only thing with owning pets, Is watching them grow old and worsen with age .


 do you think thats what i might be donig wrong with my old bully then mate!?? As i do boxing and go running at 7am every morning ,thats when i run my dog ,its about 2miles everday without fail ,do think thats to much for a dog that age !? is this the reason why hes loosing so much weight ????


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

As i said in pm, I would'nt worry to much about the runs, aslong as he can manage it and is'nt to exaused then i can't see a prob with him going on his morning runs, Its them runs which are probs helping keep him fit.
Again the runs more then likely do add to abit of weight not going on him but if ther is nothing medically wrong with him then yer, ild carry on running him. 
want 4 more to go on ya runs in the morning? hehehe


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Actually make that 3  it would do my old girl in good and proper lol


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> Actually make that 3  it would do my old girl in good and proper lol


i dont take my bitchs as there a bit young and the one bitch is dead lazy


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> Actually make that 3  it would do my old girl in good and proper lol


Eolabeo you out try it! getting up when its dark putting ya trainers on ,just you and the dog running its awsome !


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

LOL il'd walk 2 miles and more, i do with my dogs most nights, As for running  truck that  it would just about have me keal over rofl gasping for me bitter breath haha


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I never thought I'd agree with anything Garry said but on this thread I have to!!!!
I have never met a breeder yet who will admit to making any money - especially 'reputable' ones!!!!!! I know of someone who had a litter of English Bull dogs - selling the pups out for £2000 each. Please dont get me wrong - they are beautiful, healthy, well bred puppies and if I could afford one then it is the sort of litter that I would be looking at. But please dont insult my intelligence by saying that it cost £14,000 to raise a good litter - I'm just not having it


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I never thought I'd agree with anything Garry said but on this thread I have to!!!!
> I have never met a breeder yet who will admit to making any money - especially 'reputable' ones!!!!!! I know of someone who had a litter of English Bull dogs - selling the pups out for £2000 each. Please dont get me wrong - they are beautiful, healthy, well bred puppies and if I could afford one then it is the sort of litter that I would be looking at. But please dont insult my intelligence by saying that it cost £14,000 to raise a good litter - I'm just not having it


Haha well said


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I never thought I'd agree with anything Garry said but on this thread I have to!!!!
> I have never met a breeder yet who will admit to making any money - especially 'reputable' ones!!!!!! I know of someone who had a litter of English Bull dogs - selling the pups out for £2000 each. Please dont get me wrong - they are beautiful, healthy, well bred puppies and if I could afford one then it is the sort of litter that I would be looking at. But please dont insult my intelligence by saying that it cost £14,000 to raise a good litter - I'm just not having it


Jo p i am sorry if i have said the wrong thing on the odd ocasion  but me and you have hit the nail on the head on this thread


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I never thought I'd agree with anything Garry said but on this thread I have to!!!!
> I have never met a breeder yet who will admit to making any money - especially 'reputable' ones!!!!!! I know of someone who had a litter of English Bull dogs - selling the pups out for £2000 each. Please dont get me wrong - they are beautiful, healthy, well bred puppies and if I could afford one then it is the sort of litter that I would be looking at. But please dont insult my intelligence by saying that it cost £14,000 to raise a good litter - I'm just not having it


In my breed pups are £550 to £600 across the board, and the average I have bred (13 litters/74 pups) is just under 6 pups per litter.

To rear this litter, taking into account health tests for the dam, stud fee and rearing, but excluding time and wear and tear is approximately £1600 to £1800 (assuming you don't have any major complications with vet expenses, or use AI, Travel abroad for a stud, import a mate), or looking at it another way, the selling price of three pups.

That gives you on the face of it a profit of £1650 - £1800.

But this is not actually profit. If you just take into account that you will need to rear the bitch to around 3 years of age, and are likely to have 2 to four litters in her breeding life (at which point she becomes purely a pet, and possibly continue to be a show dog).

So £1800 x 3 litters is £5400 over 8 years of feeding showing etc is not a profit.

Now in order to have a breeding line you will eventually end up keeping 4 to 6 bitches even if being strict about keeping one in every generation with a good age gap.

The supposed profit allows you to do this.

If I simply wanted to show and not incur extra expense I would buy a good dog from a breeder and keep no more than two at a time, as with a show life of up to 10 years that would be enough for the fun of it.

Since selling my last puppy in March 2007 I have spent £2500 on my 5 dogs, this includes show entries for a limited number of shows, usually between 12 and 20 a year.

My next litter is planned for August, by which time I will have spent a lot more, so where's the profit in that?

The best a reputable breeder does is offset the cost of maintaining their breeding line.

Also a lot of that perceived profit can go out the window if you need to re-home a pup you have bred that you cannot accommodate at home, and need to kennel.

This extract From Economic advice notes by the Inland Revenue will explain the principles: HM Revenue & Customs: Business Economic Notes 14

"3. Breeding of pedigree livestock

The word `Pedigree' is used commonly to denote an animal of pure breeding, one that is registered with the appropriate breed society and inferring formal recognition that it has been bred from a line of registered animals.

Breeding arises from two principal and distinct motivations. Competitive or show breeding is concerned with establishing and/or developing and improving pedigree stock. Income from the sale of offspring or other associated activities is welcome but is neither the only or main motivation. On the other hand commercial pedigree breeding is simply a business venture and is concerned with pedigree only so far as it influences the marketability of offspring.

Pedigree breeders go to great lengths to preserve breed lines and generally improve or maintain standards of breed conformation. This attention to conformity at times necessitates the breeder to undertake what to some may be considered as distasteful or heartless. For example, docking of tails, culling of stock that do not meet breed standards
............

In considering the level of bona fide business expenditure relating to the establishment, a common problem revolves around the head count of productive animals. That is, animals which are actively used for breeding or showing, or are in any other way essential to and make an active contribution to the establishment.

A substantial number of breeders, especially in the dog world, become very attached to members of their stock and contrary to good business practise may continue to keep and maintain animals that have become non-productive. They, in essence, revert strictly to the status of `pet' rather than a business asset.

Ascertaining the true position appertaining to business stock or private pet, in the majority of cases will not be clear cut and where relevant will require careful consideration of the facts in each individual case.

Hobby or business

Most people involved with breeding, whether it be dogs, cats, pigeons and so on, take their activities seriously. This is not to say, however, that they also take the commercial side of breeding seriously or are motivated by a prime objective to make profits. As is often the case, the process of selective breeding can be a slow and costly exercise. The breeder will retain young that show promise. These will, in turn, depending on their eventual quality, be bred from, further enhancing the blood line and so the process will continue.

Inevitably, the creation of a blood line will result in a gradual increase in stock of animals and ensuing costs. Depending on the success of the breeder, demand should also increase, for use of stud animals or for young stock, thereby increasing the potential for profit.

It must be said, however, that this is not always a natural progression and even if success is eventually achieved, the time scale can be variable. A breeder may have to support a growing establishment, with no realistic prospect of enjoying an equally good inflow of receipts, for the foreseeable future........."


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I never said in my post that a reputable breeders prime motivation to breed was the financial side - to me they wouldnt be a reputable breeder if it were. But I maintain what I say - it costs me to keep my dogs - should I stud them out just for the pleasure of owning them - I think not. Dog ownership is not a God given right - its an honour in my book - so why should dogs be used to pay for themselves - I just dont get it if thats the arguement for breeding them.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I never said in my post that a reputable breeders prime motivation to breed was the financial side - to me they wouldnt be a reputable breeder if it were. But I maintain what I say - it costs me to keep my dogs - should I stud them out just for the pleasure of owning them - I think not. Dog ownership is not a God given right - its an honour in my book - so why should dogs be used to pay for themselves - I just dont get it if thats the arguement for breeding them.


No but a breeder cannot afford to maintain a bloodline without covering some of the costs over and above Pet ownership. To have the time to breed and care for a larger number of dogs may mean the breeder is on a fixed Income like a Pension, should only rich people and commercial breeders breed dogs

If I didn't breed I would only keep two dogs, as I couldn't afford to keep any more, but if I am to invest my time and energy into helping to maintain my breed and continue and establish my own bloodline that costs a lot.

In order to provide others with the quality fruits of this labour most breeders need to cover at least some of these costs in the sale price of a pup.

There have been less than 100 pups of my breed registered with the Kennel Club over the last two years, a third less than 15 years ago, and just 25% of the number bred in 1970. The main reasons for this is that fewer people who get seriously involved with the the breed are in a position to breed and take on the responsibility and the older breeders are retiring or dying. Of those who have bred a litter or two, once they reach the maximum they can look after they have to stop, and with a long lived breed this may mean that their bitches will be too old to breed from when numbers decrease.

Sadly during the same period that ethical people stopped breeding, feel unable to start etc, puppy farmers have been supplying commercial kennels with litters of pups and the workload for the breeds rescue has increased, and who pays for these dogs? The ever dwindling breed enthusiasts, the ethical breeders and exhibitors and pet owners.

I do not consider the amount received over and above the pure costs of the litter is any sort of profit, as this is re-invested in developng and maintaining the line.

My last litter cost me over £3000 due to travelling abroad to mate my bitch. I could easily have had no litter and had to absorb the £1750 cost of travel and stud fee.

At the moment I have one bitch of breeding age, a 12 month old and the others are Veterans.

It's all about the bigger picture.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I dont wish anyone to justify their reasons for breeding to me - apart from the person who I'll be buying my next pup from!!!! If you are happy with you're reasons and you're happy with the breeding programme you have going on then all power to your elbow so to speak - you sound to me to be a very ethical breeder for what its worth but I still believe people make money at it.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I never said in my post that a reputable breeders prime motivation to breed was the financial side - to me they wouldnt be a reputable breeder if it were. But I maintain what I say - it costs me to keep my dogs - should I stud them out just for the pleasure of owning them - I think not. Dog ownership is not a God given right - its an honour in my book - so why should dogs be used to pay for themselves - I just dont get it if thats the arguement for breeding them.


 People breed for different reasons ! and because i dont show does that make me any worse a breeder than sombody that does!? i dont think so! Like i have said before Not just my granddad but my dad have all owned and bred bull terriers at one time or another! so i would say whats the difference in buying a dog from me or a breeder that shows !? none thats what! are my dogs kc ? yes! would i take a puppy back if i had to ? yes ! I am sick and tired of people looking down there noses claiming the moural high ground and calling breeders like me a backyard breeder all because i dont choose to show ,when some of these so called show breeders are charging £2000 a pup out of a 8 pup litter ! weather you love showing or owning or both even, You wont be breeding for free will ya ,so please just cut the BULL SH*T!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I dont wish anyone to justify their reasons for breeding to me - apart from the person who I'll be buying my next pup from!!!! If you are happy with you're reasons and you're happy with the breeding programme you have going on then all power to your elbow so to speak - you sound to me to be a very ethical breeder for what its worth but I still believe people make money at it.


Oh yes people make money from breeding dogs.

Those who jump on the bandwagon of an overpriced, fashionable or popular breed that is easy to sell.

They save money on health testing, showing , and working their dogs.

Cut corners on rearing and breed younger and the maximum number of litters compared with an ethical breeder.

After all they are not worrying about needing quality time to spend with their dogs and carefully rearing and socialising a litter which may not be homed by 8 weeks, after all the only quality the buyer needs it the purchase price.

They will also not be available to offer advice and re-homing service for their new puppy owners.

These people will buy breeding stock cheaply or even offer an adult a home so less rearing costs, and will get rid of them once their breeding life is over.

Saddest of all the general public think all breeders are like this, (see a post on the Chihuahua thread) or worse still think all breeders are ethical, especially if pups are Kennel Club registered.

The result is that dogs and their unsuspecting owners suffer.

As on a previous post when asked if I am a breeder I can't simply proudly say yes, I have to qualify the answer explaining the kind of breeder I am.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

hi I'm thinking of studding out my Rottwieler x pittbull, any advice would be appreciated.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

.........:d:d:d


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

.........,,,,,,,,,:d:d:d


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

People breed for different reasons ! and because i dont show does that make me any worse a breeder than sombody that does!? i dont think so! Like i have said before Not just my granddad but my dad have all owned and bred bull terriers at one time or another! so i would say whats the difference in buying a dog from me or a breeder that shows !? none thats what! are my dogs kc ? yes! would i take a puppy back if i had to ? yes ! I am sick and tired of people looking down there noses claiming the moural high ground and calling breeders like me a backyard breeder all because i dont choose to show ,when some of these so called show breeders are charging £2000 a pup out of a 8 pup litter ! weather you love showing or owning or both even, You wont be breeding for free will ya ,so please just cut the BULL SH*T!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Magik said:


> hi I'm thinking of studding out my Rottwieler x pittbull, any advice would be appreciated.


LMAO.

im sticking around now


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Holy cow batman  no comments  itsa miracle


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> LMAO.
> 
> im sticking around now





garryd said:


> People breed for different reasons ! and because i dont show does that make me any worse a breeder than sombody that does!? i dont think so! Like i have said before Not just my granddad but my dad have all owned and bred bull terriers at one time or another! so i would say whats the difference in buying a dog from me or a breeder that shows !? none thats what! are my dogs kc ? yes! would i take a puppy back if i had to ? yes ! I am sick and tired of people looking down there noses claiming the moural high ground and calling breeders like me a backyard breeder all because i dont choose to show ,when some of these so called show breeders are charging £2000 a pup out of a 8 pup litter ! weather you love showing or owning or both even, You wont be breeding for free will ya ,so please just cut the BULL SH*T!


If you do not show then I am curious to know how you know you are breeding to the standard. What point of reference have you, how do you research what dogs are producing to what bitch.

How do you judge a potential stud dogs temperament or shortlist a number of dogs for comparison.

You cannot breed quality animals in isolation.

The shows are where you can see a representative number of dogs and their relatives from which to choose or compare breeding stock.

Do you health test your dogs, Hips and hearing come to mind, not sure about eye disease or health issues.

I would love to know how to breed good dogs without the cost of attending events where the breed can be objectively compared to other breeders efforts. I'd save a fortune, but would also Miss out on sharing knowledge and the opportunity of spending time with others with the same passion for dogs and my breed in particular.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

garryd said:


> People breed for different reasons ! and because i dont show does that make me any worse a breeder than sombody that does!? i dont think so! Like i have said before Not just my granddad but my dad have all owned and bred bull terriers at one time or another! so i would say whats the difference in buying a dog from me or a breeder that shows !? none thats what! are my dogs kc ? yes! would i take a puppy back if i had to ? yes ! I am sick and tired of people looking down there noses claiming the moural high ground and calling breeders like me a backyard breeder all because i dont choose to show ,when some of these so called show breeders are charging £2000 a pup out of a 8 pup litter ! weather you love showing or owning or both even, You wont be breeding for free will ya ,so please just cut the BULL SH*T!


well said!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Brainless said:


> If you do not show then I am curious to know how you know you are breeding to the standard. What point of reference have you, how do you research what dogs are producing to what bitch.
> 
> How do you judge a potential stud dogs temperament or shortlist a number of dogs for comparison.
> 
> ...


because when i do use a stud i go to the top breeders who go to most of shows in the uk ! but if i wanted to i could use my own stud who has 26 champions in his bloodlines ! its up to me ! in an earlyer post you said you went on holiday to breed your dog ! how many puppys paid for that trip !? i wouldent use just any stud ! and as for You cannot breed quality animals in isolation,stop talking out your pie hole mate its getting boring ! Dont asume that because i dont choose to show dont mean i have never been to a show ! I know most of the top bull terrier kennels breeders whom i would have a choce of stud dog to pick from ! Please no more bull sh*t most on here are sick of it !


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2008)

garryd said:


> because when i do use a stud i go to the top breeders who go to most of shows in the uk ! but if i wanted to i could use my own stud who has 26 champions in his bloodlines ! its up to me ! in an earlyer post you said you went on holiday to breed your dog ! how many puppys paid for that trip !? i wouldent use just any stud ! and as for You cannot breed quality animals in isolation,stop talking out your pie hole mate its getting boring ! Dont asume that because i dont choose to show dont mean i have never been to a show ! I know most of the top bull terrier kennels breeders whom i would have a choce of stud dog to pick from ! Please no more bull sh*t most on here are sick of it !


Sorry I didn't go on holiday to mate my bitch I travelled to the wilds of Finland and stayed at the Stud owners house. Luckily enough the £1750 that it cost in flights and stud fee was not wasted, but I still made a loss on the litter, and it was a decent size litter of 7. I took a big gamble taking a maiden bitch over for the right days, as flights had to be booked as soon as she came in season.

Unfortunately for me most of the litter were male! I had promised a show potential puppy to a new exhibitor starting in the breed in Scotland where all the old breeders had died out. So she got the best of the two bitch pups, and at 11 months won the RCC at the Last Championship show of last year.

My own bitch turned out very leggy and will not do anything much in the ring until she is fully mature and grows into herself.

The 5 generation pedigree has just 14 non champions out of 62 ancestors. the first 3 generations have just two untitled dogs. Yet that won't make my pup a champion, her sister maybe, but not her.

She has qualities I can use and in fact her legginess will offset the tendency in some lines to get a little dumpy with maturity. Unless I know/learn what I am doing and mate her to the right dogs the number of champions in her pedigree will be of little use to me.

I can't rely on the pedigree alone, and of course I could, do now and have in the past taken advice from some of the top breeders, but surely a breeder aims to develop their own knowledge and talent for selecting breeding stock?

In the first or second generation your reaping the results of other breeders decisions, after that it is your own choices that determine the outcome more.

You admit yourself that the shows are needed in order to compare and prove the quality of the dogs against the standard and each other, but you would choose to have someone else do the groundwork.


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Closing thread before it turns in to yet another argument about breeding dogs.


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