# Urgent Help Required - Dog Behaviour



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi All, 

To inroduce, my name is Sam, 19, from Sheffield 

Im gonna cut this down because it was too long. 

Basically, our whippet/border collie keeps ripping the floor up and chewing chairs etc when we are not in the house, it has got to the point as stated above in bold. 

She goes 'mad' quite often i.e, running around uncontrolably until she gets bored. 

I know a solution to this kind of behaviour is probably not short term, but I need some ammunition to convince them not to remove her from the family. 

Any help now is appreciated greatly.

Sam

EDIT: Further Information: 
- she is over 1 year old
- had her from puupy (6 weeks old) 
- my mums partner takes her out in the morning with big walks at the weekend
- I want to throw ball to her etc but she will run away on hearing helicopters etc so is usually avoided by me
- She is left alone ~ 7 hours
- my mother and partner have agreed to give her 'one last chance'
- giving her commands such as 'get down' will most often spur the 'mad' moment.
- she will only damage things when she is alone
- she has been alllowed (not by myself) to chew things other than toys as a puppy
- after having to remove the laminate floor in the kitchen, she cannot run on the floor and therefore slides into the wall hurting herself each time, but is impossible to stop her when in 'mad' moment


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

BUMP - really need help


----------



## barbinabox (Nov 23, 2011)

Sam it is very difficult to know why she is behaving like this without knowing more about her. It is almost impossible to tackle the behaviour without knowing a lot more.
How old is she? How long is she left alone? How much excercise does she get?
Tell us more about her and your/her family.


----------



## jackiep (Nov 18, 2011)

Hopefully someone will come along that can give you some good advise.

I'll list a few questions that might help others to advise

How old is your dog?
How long have you had her (from puppy or older) if older do you know if she suffered from seperation anxiety before. If from puppy when did she start doing this?
Is it only when she is left alone?
How much exercise do you give her?
What are you feeding her?


----------



## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

sammclean23 said:


> Basically, our whippet/border collie keeps ripping the floor up and chewing chairs etc when we are not in the house, it has got to the point as stated above in bold.
> 
> She goes 'mad' quite often i.e, running around uncontrolably until she gets bored.


I think you will find that she does the destruction because she is bored.

The Border Collie in her is very intelligent in doggie terms and the Whippet will bring some speed to the dog's nature.

When the family comes home from being at work/school etc they seek rest and relaxation. The dog has been waiting for the family to return to provide activity and excitement, like many dogs that have problems in a domestic environment the problem is that people no longer live lifestyles that dogs are fully integrated into. This is why the Japanese invested the robot dog !

I would suggest that you talk to your local Flyball group, I would think you have the ideal dog for a champion.

Try these links:
Home - Sheffield Speeders Flyball Team
(Please don't be put off by their pictures - competitive young people are involved too.)​
Flyball - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flyball - Crufts 2007 Final - YouTube

*You will notice that there are a LOT of Border Collies in this sport.*​


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I do not know you or your dog and you have not given us much information to go on but I agree that it sounds like your dog is bored. Having border collie in there means your dog needs something to occupy it's mind and body. The bit about your dog going 'mad' and running round and round sounds like she is understimulated. Having BC in the mix could also mean your dog has a tendency to be obssessive and her boredom manifests itself in this kind of behaviour.

Obviously, i'm making massive assumptions based on the little bit of content in your post but I agree that it sounds like you have the perfect dog for some kind of dog sport like agility or flyball.


----------



## abbiechi (Jul 2, 2011)

Bumping this up for you.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Hi Sam welcome to PF  

Is the dog in danger (as in of being surrendered or otherwise got rid of)?

This dog first and foremost needs a medical evaluation and most likely referral to a qualifed behaviourist (APBC or COAPE certified at the very least).

I am concerned because of the tone of the post and because of the severe destruction seen in the owner's absence.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Thank you greatly for the posts above! 

Rather than reply to each post I have edited the opening post with some further information...hopefully this will help more!

Again, thanks in advance for any further replies


----------



## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

It certainly sounds as though she is bored and getting no where near enough exercise. 7 hours is a very long time for her to be left on her own and not try to create some entertainment for herself  The mad moments when you are home are likely to be her clever way of getting your attention 
Could you not get someone to come in and exercise her during the day for you ?? Does she not get an evening walk ??


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Callia said:


> It certainly sounds as though she is bored and getting no where near enough exercise. 7 hours is a very long time for her to be left on her own and not try to create some entertainment for herself  The mad moments when you are home are likely to be her clever way of getting your attention
> Could you not get someone to come in and exercise her during the day for you ?? Does she not get an evening walk ??


Yeah it is a long time 

My mum comes home in her dinner hour for an hour to let her out etc.

If we cant take her out during the day, could we just give her more intense walks in the morning for example?

Thanks for the reply


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

You say she is taken out in ther morning - for how long? Does she also get an evening walk? 

It does sound as if she is bored during the day & so is becoming destructive. Can you arrange for a dog walker to come in during the day or pop back home at lunchtime to play with her or take her out.

As advised previously I would take her to the vet for a check up & seek the advice of a behaviourist to assess her especially if she has these 'mad moments'


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Hmmm, apart from being exercised in the morning, does she get any other stimulation? It sounds like she doesnt get very much attention and is finding negative ways of interacting with you. Even negative attention is better than no attention!

My dogs only get one walk a day because I work full time and start early in the morning but they are not alone as my Mum is home all day. I have border collies and a gundog, breeds which need something to do so here are a few examples of how I keep them occupied when they are not on a walk:
*Throw handfuls of kibble randomly around the garden so they have to find it
*Give them recreational bones which will keep them occupied for a couple of hours (mine are raw fed so they get a pigs head or whole cow leg)
*I have interactive toys like Nina Ottoson, Kongs, Pyramid treat dispenser
*Clicker training
Besides that they attend agility, obedience and gundog classes and I think this is very important for their welfare as i'm quite lazy and very little training would get done if I didnt attend classes!

Even though my Mum is home, my dogs do nothing until I arrive home from work but I think because they are stimulated in a general sense they are happy to sleep in their beds without fuss until I get home (and then all Hell breaks loose!)

To me, it sounds as if your dog is telling you she is fed up and wants more from life.


----------



## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> Yeah it is a long time
> 
> My mum comes home in her dinner hour for an hour to let her out etc.
> 
> ...


To be honest, the more exercise the better and if it cant be done in the middle of the day then morning and evening will have to do 
I have two whippets myself and find they do have crazy moments during the day but luckily they dont tend to last very long and after several laps of the paddock they are back to sleeping on the sofa again  Unfortunately your girl is part bc so she could probably go all day !! 
Have you thought about crate training ?? I know it is a long time for her to be left crated ( 3 hours at a time ) but if she is getting plenty of exercise before and after its not impossible even if not ideal and at least she will be safe. There is obviously a huge risk of her chewing something dangerous when left loose and on the rampage.


----------



## Barryjparsons (Nov 27, 2011)

I wouldn't count on the fact that this behaviour is short lived. With no one there to curb her behaviour why would it change? You can't address the destruction because you are not there to see it happen. You can't tell her off, it will mean nothing.

A border collie has been bred to run and work all day. My mums can go out for a 3hr walk, a 1 hour run with my brother and still want to play ball in the house for hours.

I would guess at boredom being the major cause due to time she spends on her own. I guess there are a few things you can think about.

Dog walker for a period during the day. It doesn't always have to cost a lot or anything. My mum does it for free for a couple of people when she walks her own dogs. Advertise in the local shop etc Be aware that there won't be liability insurance etc 

Walk her more, get up earlier walk the legs of her, throw balls, frisbees etc. Take her out at night for big walks and free runs.

Train her often, click train to do exciting things while you are there. Even your mum could do a few minutes at lunchtime.

Fill a kong with great treats and pack it well before you leave.

Give her heavy duty chew treats, big fresh bones, stag antlers.

A contentious issue but get another dog, not a puppy but a rescue. 7hrs a day with another dog having the run of the house is better than sitting in kennels and companionship may alleviate the boredom.

Find a different job.

Hope this helps


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Think it has more or less been ruled down to excercise so I will make sure she gets more. 

With regards to stimulation, we are always playing with her with toys or just messing around. 

The crate was suggested by someone today actually, I dont think it would be too difficult to do this as she already sees her bed as her own place sort of thing :biggrin:

Oh and the walk in a morning is approx 20 min. 

Although we are not there during the day to correct her behaviour, when we return to something damaged she will hide rather than greeting us..which makes me think she does know what she has done is bad?

Clicker training sounds great too. 

I have fired these suggestions at my mum and i think it has got through to her that we can sort the problem!


----------



## Barryjparsons (Nov 27, 2011)

sammclean23 said:


> The crate was suggested by someone today actually, I dont think it would be too difficult to do this as she already sees her bed as her own place sort of thing :biggrin:
> 
> *Crate would be ok for a few hours, maybe morning or afternoon but 7 hours is too long in my opinion even with an hours break. Once in a while fair enough, but 5 days a week is way too much. Some people do it but I wouldn't*
> 
> ...


There is also dog daycare but this usually costs upwards of £20 per day .


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Barryjparsons said:


> There is also dog daycare but this usually costs upwards of £20 per day .


Wil try anything really, I honestly think my mum and her partner will put her up for adoption if she ruins anything else


----------



## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> To inroduce, my name is Sam, 19, from Sheffield
> 
> ...


Hi Sam,

There's a couple of suggestions I have for you about your dog - she could be suffering from separation anxiety or it could just be plain boredom. The fact you say she has mad fits, as I call them, makes me lean more towards her being bored.

So, how to combat it... firstly she's a collie and so needs big, long walks every day instead of just at the weekends. A 20 minute walk in the park isn't enough for a collie. She needs at least an hour a day, preferably more. In terms of her running away, while you work on her recall you could put her on a long line so she can't run away but can still have some exercise.

7 Hours is far too long for any dog to be left, let alone one with a very active mind and high exercise requirements. There's a very true saying: an unemployed collie is a self employed collie. If she's being left in a house for that long it's no surprise that she's finding new ways to pass the time. She does need someone to pop in to her midday at the least, be it a dog walker, yourself or neighbour. Make sure she is left with lots of mental stimulation when alone too, Nina Ottoson toys, a stuffed kong, etc etc. An even better solution would be doggy daycare, but if your family are saying she's on her last chance just for being a normal, bored collie I doubt they'll want to pay for that.

Can you pop a rug down in the kitchen to stop her hurting herself? Or take her for a walk when she's hyper as she obviously has energy she needs to burn.


----------



## edidasa (May 7, 2011)

1. sufficient exercise.
2. toys.
3. no play in house - only outside. or designated area.
4. crate in house.
5. collar and lead when in the house. no free running.

Enjoy.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for those suggestions 

I am aware collie's need big walks which is a mistake we also made with my previous full border collie, although we did change that. 

The long lead sounds like an excellent idea for when i take her out. 

I suggested the rug in the kitchen but they wont through fear of it being damaged. 

One thing we have noticed though after thinking about it, she did have a plastic type bed which she would always chew. Once she had ripped it to bits essentially, we threw it and left her with the 'bedding' part. I think because she no longer has that, she has taken to other things. 

Either way, it is clear from the sugestions she really isnt geting out enough. 

The toys sound like a brilliant idea too, i think were gonna go and have a look today and see what we can find for her. 

Again, thanks for the suggestions. Without all the info here, there is a good chance she could have been gone.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

If you only have 20 minutes in which to exercise her in the morning and really can't get up earlier have you thought about running with her instead - she may enjoy working with you and you can teach different commands etc so she gets a little mental stimulation too.


----------



## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

Thankfully you can now do something about her exercise routine though and hopefully you will see a change in her. 

I read that you were only actually leaving her for 3 hours at a time as your mum comes home for an hour in the middle of the day and if this is the case then crate training is not completely out of the question. I don't think its ideal as she would still be in there for a long time but I would rather that then her hurting herself by chewing something dangerous  If you can get her out for an hour early every morning (the best dog walking time IMO) and then for another hour when you get home in the evening, she should calm down a little  Training her to run with a bicycle is great exercise. 
Unfortunately she probably has very little clue as to why you are upset when you return and she has chewed something. She just knows that you are upset/angry and so stays out of the way. Its really pointless being cross with her when you return, it could well even make your situation worse as she will know that when you go out for a long time you return angry/upset and she has no idea why. It could actually be stressing her and causing the whole chewing thing.


----------



## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

If you all read the OP this dog is a lurcher not a pure border collie 

Dear OP.

The running & leaping about is normal sight hound/lurcher behaviour and can only be minimised in the house with lots and lots of exercise and stimulating play. As you are in Sheffield which is not that far from Rotherham you could consider joining lurcher link and taking her to one of their informal race meetings. They are held on the second Saturday of every month at Highgate Greyhound racing Stadium. The next meet is this coming Saturday if you can make it.

I would crate train her. My Bizkit was an absolute nightmare in the house when I left him so eventually I got him a crate and left him with a big raw meaty bone from the butchers to chew on every day. By the time he was about 20 months old he had grown out of chewing things. 

Shannow is my latest dog and she is a bull lurcher. She does that leaping and running about thing you describe. She also keeps chewing stuff in the house. I can't crate her because she chews her way out of the crate so I make sure I leave lots of things for her to have a good chew on and hide all the stuff she shouldn't be chewing before I leave.

Because your dog is part whippet it has a strong desire to run very fast. You will be lucky to ever get a lurcher to retrieve, when what they really really really want to do is chase. Have you got a bicycle? I take mine cycling so they can chase me at high speed which seems to keep them very calm in the house (mostly lol). If you've only got 20 mins in the morning then 20 minutes running with the bike equates to about an hour of walking exercise.

If your parents decide to re-home her then lurcher link will be able to help find her a suitable forever home. Also you might be able to get more specialised lurcher advice if you went on lurcher link 

Good luck


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Dogless said:


> If you only have 20 minutes in which to exercise her in the morning and really can't get up earlier have you thought about running with her instead - she may enjoy working with you and you can teach different commands etc so she gets a little mental stimulation too.


Or better yet, ride a bike while she runs alongside. A cyle route or canal towpath would be ideal - obviously not on a road.


----------



## SophieCyde (Oct 24, 2010)

I haven't read all the replies so everything I'm about to say will probably of already been said

I would suggest some more excersize definetly , another walk or run or something like that 

Perhaps crate train , although probably not best for long periods of time , do you have a 'safe' room e.g the kitchen she could be locked in while you're out ?

Does she have a kong , they can be filled with all sorts of treats and even frozen to make it a bit harder , which might occupy her for a while 

Just a few ideas :thumbup1:


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Running sounds good! Although will take some training lol. 

I took her out yesterday and the second i tried to jog she tried full on sprinting! good job i was on a field, was enjoyable though. Instead of running distance I did a forwards and backwards thing with my mate, so we ran away, and when I said 'back' we would run back to my mate, think she enjoyed that. 

@metaldog do you go to the meets then? 

@callia, exactly. My mum's partner would not communicate with her for several days after the damage she caused, which obviously a dog would never understand - they live more for the 'moment'. 

crate training have definately opened more possibilities and has shown that there are ways to help. There has certainly been a change in attitude towards her after my convincing this week. 

Now I don't want to be too optimistic, but after taking her on around a 2 mile walk on a night this week, I have yet to see her have another mad moment. She seems much calmer and my mum has noticed likewise. 

I dont want to change topic within the thread, but so I can let her off her lead more often, is there anyway I could combat her running away from helicopters/planes? She just runs in any direction, which is really dangerous.

Also, to ensure she comes back when on a field with other dogs, should i just ensure i praise/reward her everytime she does come back? Maybe combined with clicker training. 

One last thing, all of your suggestions probbaly took you all 5 minutes to type, however, you have all given me ideas to argue to keep our dog, so thank you for that.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

edidasa said:


> 1. sufficient exercise.
> 2. toys.
> 3. no play in house - only outside. or designated area.
> 4. crate in house.
> ...


I am not sure this reply is very helpful.

OP, you seem to be addressing things well. A dog like that needs at least 2 and probably 3 long walks in a day, totalling at least an hour and a half. Lots of training and training type games to stimulate the brain. Have you been to dog training classes with her, that would give you a couple of hours of fun with her plus your training homework the rest of the week.

and yes, you should praise/treat every time she comes back to you. As far as planes and helicopters are concerned - do I take it you have a lot of them as they would not be a problem to most people. A good idea would be to keep an eye out and recall your dog and feed her titbits while the plane comes over so she starts to think the noise means good things.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I am not sure this reply is very helpful.
> 
> OP, you seem to be addressing things well. A dog like that needs at least 2 and probably 3 long walks in a day, totalling at least an hour and a half. Lots of training and training type games to stimulate the brain. Have you been to dog training classes with her, that would give you a couple of hours of fun with her plus your training homework the rest of the week.
> 
> and yes, you should praise/treat every time she comes back to you. As far as planes and helicopters are concerned - do I take it you have a lot of them as they would not be a problem to most people. A good idea would be to keep an eye out and recall your dog and feed her titbits while the plane comes over so she starts to think the noise means good things.


I think there is a busy flight path/military also, over our house. And, living in Rotherham, the police helicopter makes a common occurence flying over.

Even in the house she will be scared.

I'll invest in some training treats then, would I have to combine with 'Sit' or will she associate it to the noise anyway?

Thanks!


----------



## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Helicopters: One technique you might consider is "Look At Me" training, where the dog focusses on you during the distraction. 

On a stout lead armed with a tub of bits of cooked liver/sausage go sit with your dog in a space where planes helicopters fly past and just get the dog to sit and look at your face during the fly-by. Entice and reward with the food. 

Our dogs grew up not far from some hotels that often had firework displays so we used LAM training to deal with the initial fear they had. I will say it needs to be re-enforced/repeated as since we moved they only get to hear fireworks a few times a year and they do now react where in the past they did not.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> Helicopters: One technique you might consider is "Look At Me" training, where the dog focusses on you during the distraction.
> 
> On a stout lead armed with a tub of bits of cooked liver/sausage go sit with your dog in a space where planes helicopters fly past and just get the dog to sit and look at your face during the fly-by. Entice and reward with the food.
> 
> Our dogs grew up not far from some hotels that often had firework displays so we used LAM training to deal with the initial fear they had. I will say it needs to be re-enforced/repeated as since we moved they only get to hear fireworks a few times a year and they do now react where in the past they did not.


Brilliant anything is worth a try. This will work well on the field I take her actually as they fly over all the time.

The thing is, I will need to ensure my mum/her partner keep it consistent i.e. treating her when she doesnt run away etc. I think they get annoyed with my constant researching of things


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

sammclean23 said:


> Brilliant anything is worth a try. This will work well on the field I take her actually as they fly over all the time.
> 
> The thing is, I will need to ensure my mum/her partner keep it consistent i.e. treating her when she doesnt run away etc. I think they get annoyed with my constant researching of things


You could also try distraction; Kilo used to chase helicopters as a lot fly over here too. I started to take a tug toy or tennis ball and kept them in my pocket. As soon as I could hear a helicopter approaching I showed him the toy and threw it / started a tug game etc. He was busy playing so didn't chase the aircraft and now I can call him back if he starts to chase as he knows that he will get a game.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Can I just ask, should the dog know that I have a treat whilst trying to train. For example if i was training to 'come' should she know I have a treat to hand or should i surprise her upon doing the right thing?


----------



## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

The dog's sense of smell is about 1,000 better than a humans, the dog knows if you have food on you either way. 

Someone posted the other day in here on the subject of recall and used different treats from a mixed bag, so when the dog came back there was a pot-luck element of getting a biscuit or sausage or whatever. Nice touch I thought. :thumbup1:

When I was doing our dogs I either sat on a chair in the enclosure at the front of the house or on a tiled section of the ground with the dogs and held a lump of meat/biscuit type thing in each hand, non-reaction to the bang was rewarded and replenishment of supplies to my hand waiting for the next bang. Reaction to the bangs was reminded to LAM and entice with the smell of the reward from my hand.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for this  its not essential, but think im gonna try and get her to roll over while i have the day off work, just for stimulation. 

Obviously it wont be perfected but i want to occupy her as much as possible. 

So far iv taught her to stay, stand and speak with my mum teaching sit, lay down, come, leave. 

I think this thread may be going off topic now a bit, but many thanks for all the replies and suggestions. 

Just thought id share a picture of her chasing leaves if anyone was wondering what she looked like .


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i agreed with all of the post, :thumbup: until THIS...   * in BOLD:*



Barryjparsons said:


> Walk her more, get up earlier walk the legs of her, throw balls, frisbees etc. Take her out at night for big walks and free runs.
> 
> Train her often, click train to do exciting things while you are there. Even your mum could do a few minutes at lunchtime.
> 
> ...


YIPE.

"get another dog" when there's already some serious problem-behavior, & there's a chance the CURRENT dog 
may be surrendered to shelter, rescue, or the tender mercies of a classified-ad?! -

very, very bad idea, IMO; deal with *this* dog's issues, don't add more complications to the mess.

it's perfectly possible for BOTH dogs to take delight in shredding the house while solo - 
i would never leave a new-adoptee at large, unsupervised, no matter how perfectly behaved in their 
former home, this is a new place, with new people & new anxieties; the dog needs TIME to settle-in & develop their 
new routine.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> Although we're not there during the day to correct her behaviour, when we return to something damaged,
> *she will hide rather than greet us, *which makes me think she does know what she's done is bad?


i have had the same exact convo with multiple clients over the decades... :nonod:

_No, s/he doesn't - s/he has learnt that WHEN U COME HOME, *U plus whatever = anger & punishment*: 
scolding, yells, angry faces & tones, & so on, possibly being dragged to the object / site of 'misbehavior' 
& being shoved into it, smacked on the spot, lectured angrily, & so on...

the dog ANTICIPATES that Ur arrival predicts bad things.

however, the dog's 'bad' behavior may have been a minute ago, an hour, 5 hours ago - Who knows? 
NO MATTER, it's too late; if U don't witness it & cannot interrupt it in progress, it's ALL "too late"._


----------



## DMCDelia (Nov 24, 2011)

This poor young dog needs lots of *exercise & stimulation*. She is going stir crazy. Her madness is more desperation than cleverness. Seven hours is far too long to leave her unoccupied. She needs a dog walker to break this up, or even to be in day care where she'll get more walks, interaction with other dogs and possibly some rehabilitation of the neurosis.
The agility/flyball idea is good but not a 'fix'. Her needs are a DAILY requirement.
The 'one last chance' means what? In that home? Maybe it's not the right one in the first place....?


----------



## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Sounds like you are trying really hard to help your dog, which is great 

I adopted a 14 month old Lab from a rescue and for the first month or two, he also did the mad running round like a lunatic. It was purely because he wasn't getting enough exercise and mental stimulation. As soon as I remedied this, he started to calm down.

So do KEEP up with the increased walks 

And the 'watch me' or 'look at me' training is fab too  I use it on my Lab as he is very reactive to many things.

It's a great shame that your family get 'angry' when you research these things - *I think you are FAB for doing all you can to help this dog.*


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

DMCDelia said:


> This poor young dog needs lots of *exercise & stimulation*. She is going stir crazy. Her madness is more desperation than cleverness. Seven hours is far too long to leave her unoccupied. She needs a dog walker to break this up, or even to be in day care where she'll get more walks, interaction with other dogs and possibly some rehabilitation of the neurosis.
> The agility/flyball idea is good but not a 'fix'. Her needs are a DAILY requirement.
> The 'one last chance' means what? In that home? Maybe it's not the right one in the first place....?


My mum does come home at 12 for an hour so it does kind of split it up, not enough though I know.



> Sounds like you are trying really hard to help your dog, which is great
> 
> I adopted a 14 month old Lab from a rescue and for the first month or two, he also did the mad running round like a lunatic. It was purely because he wasn't getting enough exercise and mental stimulation. As soon as I remedied this, he started to calm down.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I was surprised today that I taught her to play dead within half an hour...obviously its not perfect but she seems to enjoy learning!!

I've been off for 2 days so been able to concentrate on training her a bit

Love labs btw, my grandad has one, very old now though.

And with regards to my family getting 'angry' - i think its because they are twice my age yet to be honest, I have learnt a lot and end up correcting them at times.



> the dog ANTICIPATES that Ur arrival predicts bad things.
> 
> however, the dog's 'bad' behavior may have been a minute ago, an hour, 5 hours ago - Who knows?
> NO MATTER, it's too late; if U don't witness it & cannot interrupt it in progress, it's ALL "too late".


She will only 'hide' when she has done something. Any other time shes bouncing around with her tail wagging as fast as she can :biggrin:

Obviously she will not understand any anger from us after the point she damaged something though, which I have been trying to tell my mum/partner to stop.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> ...so [that] I can let her [off-lead] more often, is there any way I could combat her running away
> from helicopters/planes?
> She just runs in any direction, which is really dangerous.


i'd suggest a long-line EVERY time she is outside of a secure fenced-area, just in case of surprises; 
U'd never forgive Urself if she ran-off & was lost, hurt, stolen, etc.

changing her habit would take a considerable time; B-Mod is not as fast as TRAINING, which is _'teaching wanted 
behaviors, & getting each on-cue reliably, including proof each around distractions, plus distance & duration'._

B-Mod involves *DE*constructing the dog's current emotional-response & habitual reaction / actions, 
then *replace* the former emotional-response with a new one, & *construct* a new desired behavior --- 
all in place of the former-habit.

HOW LONG this takes depends upon how instinctive the un-wanted behavior is / was, How Long the dog has 
responded in that un-wanted fashion, & how skillful we are at finding ways to associate a new-emotion, then 
reinforce a new-behavior to substitute for the un-wanted one, get it solidly on cue, then proof it.

B-Mod is a major renovation in an existing house - say, a brand-new kitchen to replace a 30-YO one - 
while living in the house day-to-day & making meals, doing laundry, helping the kids with homework, etc. 
TRAINING a-k-a _'teaching cued behaviors or manners'_ is all-new construction from foundation to roof.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> ...I will need to ensure my mum/her partner keep it consistent; i-e, *treat her when she doesn't run away*, etc.


it's not possible to GIVE THE DOG THE *OPTION* TO RUN-OFF - 
she must be secured on a long-line, a leash, or [* if * she's far-enuf from the noise to be calm] 
within a secure fence; IF SHE FLEES within the fence, the stimulus is too-close, & she rehearses her fears.

an old training maxim: 
_'Anything practiced becomes permanent.'_

we do not want 'run-off from loud engines, fireworks, or whapping noises' to be practiced - 
at all! :thumbup1:


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Just took her out again, no helicopters etc this time. Going to get her a long lead, although she did escape my grip and i just knealt down and shouted her back :thumbup1: 

However, i find it difficult trying to get her to do things while walking: 

1. she will not respond to any commands at all when stood still, she will look away quite evidently. I was trying to get her to sit in order to keep her attention on me whilst walking

2. She will always look intently to things i cannot see, maybe rabbits, and will pull as much as she can. My suspicion is that because my mums partner has trained her to lamp, she is using what he has taught her. And obviously me telling her this is wrong will be very confusing for her. (I do not agree with lamping nor do i want to begin a discussion on it i just felt I needed to add it for you to understand my point) 

Any help is appreciated as always

Sam


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

BUMP to try and get some help


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

The problem you have is that your dog is a mixture of a sight hound and a BC - 2 breeds which are stimulated by moving objects. The other problem you have is that if she has been used for lamping then she might never be reliable off lead or might only be able to come off lead in a secure area. You are trying to train conflicting things from what I can gather - is she allowed to chase rabbits/foxes/other wildlife or is she to ignore it? It would be hard for the dog to decipher when it's ok to chase and when it isnt.

I would take small steps. I admit i've only skimmed most of the posts but make sure you master a command in the house where there are no distractions, then move into the garden where there are a few more distractions but it's not overwhelming and work your way up to training on the park or on the fields where there are lots of distractions. :thumbup1:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> ...your dog is a mixture of sighthound & BC - 2 breeds... stimulated by moving objects.
> 
> ...if she's been used for lamping [game to shoot], then she might never be reliable off-lead, or she might
> only be able to come off-lead [within] a secured area.
> ...


it isn't just HARD - it's frankly impossible.

Either she's a hunting-dog & only OFF-lead to hunt, or she's a pet who ignores game & comes when called. 
Pick one.

MEANWHILE - she needs to be safely leashed, which if she's to get a decent run, means a long-line. 
a 30-ft lunge-line for a horse is cheaper than a 30-ft line sold for dogs; good luck.

tell the eejit who has been lamping with the dog to quit moaning about her behavior - THEY were the fool 
who taught it to the dog, & THEY deserve the spanking, IM *full & very frank* O. :thumbdown:

teaching the dog to chase, then bitching because the dog doesn't instantly come when called, while she's 
eagerly hoping for something to chase, is pure stoopidity - feel free to tell him [it's probly a *him*] 
that i said so, too - without an ounce of repentance or any qualm whatever, & i suggest a rolled newspaper 
be firmly applied to his buttocks, as his head is most-likely too concrete for application there to be felt.

disgusted, 
- terry


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> She will always look intently to things i cannot see, maybe rabbits, and will pull as much as she can. My suspicion is that because my mums partner has trained her to lamp, she is using what he has taught her. And obviously me telling her this is wrong will be very confusing for her. (I do not agree with lamping nor do i want to begin a discussion on it i just felt I needed to add it for you to understand my point)


I don't know if the guy who did the lamping trained the dog to recall from chases as well as letting them chase or not, no mention of that in your post si Im writing assuming he did not, so, Im writing on the assumption he just let them chase but no reliable recall from a chase.

The most unreliable training goal with a dog like that is to try & train them not to chase, thats only semi reliable at the very best to very unreliable on avererage with a medium to high drive dog, I simply call semi reliable unreliable.

A live unplanned video example of a dog which was trained from a puppy not to chase any deer in Richmond park specificaly starts around 2:9 secs into the vid (scroll in) & that bit of unplanned footage is titled 'Real Emergency Recall', she had never chased deer in there before & never chased since, shes a high drive dog as I assume yours must be. So thats an inherant problem with training dogs 'not to chase', in the case just mentioned she did recall from the chase but only because she is trained to recall from chases.

The alternative training option where you acheive reliable recalls from multi species chases is to allow chases but train them to recall from multi species chases , this can only be done first by foundation ground work on the "leave" exercise, once they are doing well on that your nearly there.

After that it's simply a matter of training recalls from chases in the real situation of chasing & you'll end up with high reliabilty recall from them.

The first video is a leave exercise it has text but no sound. The second vid is recalls from multi species chases including the emergency I mentioned at 2:9 secs in, BUT, she would not have recalled if I had only trained her not to chase, it was only because I had trained a recall from chases that she recalled.

So yes, you can effectively train your dog to recall from chases which results in a dog with excellent physical & mental health throughout life and into old age having lived the life of a free dog expressing itself daily as a dog & not a frustrated prisoner on lead, full of tension and stress at not being able to live the dogs life they all need & acting & looking like an old dog years before its time. Up to you really.

Leave excersise





Multiple Recalls From Chases, Different Species An Emergency & An Aggressive Incident. - YouTube

.


----------



## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Restricted access video: 



 :confused5:


----------



## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Is it a bit like this?


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Sorry, I forgot I took it off public veiwing, I just freed it, its also got that Richmond emergency added at the end, I forgot about that. I dont like the fact it has no sound but text explanations instead. its ok now.

Dog Training, Leave & Recall Reinforcement Exercise & Application In Real Emergency - YouTube

.


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Is it a bit like this?
> 
> JESUS CHRIST IN RICHMOND PARK: ORIGINAL UPLOAD - YouTube
> Like


I don't know, I'll look in the morning my nets got really, really slow in evenings this week or so.

One things for sure theres a big lack of explanatory vids being put on, they make things so much easier for posters such as this tyo understand & have so much more edu value than writing.
.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

thank you loads for those replies..i expected big replies about how lamping is wrong etc so glad it didnt turn into that.

- I NEVER take her out chasing things so I am completely unaware of how my mum's partner treats her when doing so. 
- I've tried using commands in the house prior to taking her out and it does help calm her down and therefore concentrate when outside
-To be honest, I have watched the links posted and although interesting and maybe in the future, I only want to take her on normal walks... If my mums partner wants to take her out chasing that is his choice.

- Forgot to add, i'm not sure how reliable her recall is. To be honest, when i watched him once, he just seemed to shout her and hope for the best. She wasn't treated etc when she came back.

@Leashedforlife: I recognise youre quite frustrated and that is what im feeling on a daily basis

*I think it is clear that a lot of the conflict lies between us as a family and this is being put onto the dog...do you agree?*

EDIT: that video of the deer! I remember when I had my old border collie, we were on the same field I take my current dog, and he went and sat in the middle of a busy road next to the field thinking it was a game, I s*** my self.


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

OK, I misunderstood before, I thought it 'had been' your OTs dog & now it was yours, sort of got the picture now, your a little Greenpeace tree hugger from Sheffield & he's a devil worshiping carnivour from Rotherham.
.


----------



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> A live unplanned video example of a dog which was trained from a puppy not to chase any deer in Richmond park specificaly


More bull*** from SB. As usual he is talking out of his backside. He has no idea how this dog was trained or what it was trained to do or not to do. He is simply blathering mindlessly as a way of attacking non-aversive training techniques. Who knows, maybe because he is an incompetent trainer he is losing to many clients to APBC and clicker trainers and his only way to keep cash in his pocked it with these idiotic videos of his. By the LOW number of views his videos have, nobody cares what he is trying to sell, he's simply trying to boost his views by constantly linking to his YouTube channel.

In fact, the best thing to do is assume that SB is lying or wrong in every post and that his only agenda is to attack those he dislikes and disrupt discussions. He as much admits it in his page.



> SleepyBones
> Thanks, thought I would have been banned before now but seem to be getting away with it.


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

An excellent work of the highest literary merit and cultural significance.

Conclusively a work which should be hailed as a major international level contribution to the world of art & literature.

.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> OK, I misunderstood before, I thought it 'had been' your OTs dog & now it was yours, sort of got the picture now, your a little Greenpeace tree hugger from Sheffield & he's a devil worshiping carnivour from Rotherham.
> .


This thread has clearly gone off topic now anyway.

Im not from sheffield but not everyone knows where rotherham is which is why I stated I was from sheffield.

And 'greenpeace tree hugger' - far from it. I have no idea why you make that assumption and I will not retaliate over a forum, however I guarantee you would find that is not the case should you come across me.

@Corinthian: thank you for outlining what you have previously, I wouldn't know as have only just joined.

No further help required within this thread, I will begin another should I wish to seek further help. For those that posted helpful replies, thank you, your help is appreciated 

Sam


----------



## absycats (May 27, 2011)

what food is she on? and i have a sprollie who has mad crazy moments where she charges round she gets a hr walk at least usually more depends how i feel as im disabled she has a good run with other dogs off lead and i had similar problems as u when she was left but since ive increased her excercise shes been loads better they do need stimulation i wouldnt crate yours for 7hrs tho that would b cruel maybe a home where it gets more walks might be for the best. 
I agree with the post you cant correct the behaviour as your not there to see it but definatly check the food mine was on bakers and we found that was causing her issues good luck collies r lovely but hard work to intelligent for their own good lol x


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

absycats said:


> what food is she on? and i have a sprollie who has mad crazy moments where she charges round she gets a hr walk at least usually more depends how i feel as im disabled she has a good run with other dogs off lead and i had similar problems as u when she was left but since ive increased her excercise shes been loads better they do need stimulation i wouldnt crate yours for 7hrs tho that would b cruel maybe a home where it gets more walks might be for the best.
> I agree with the post you cant correct the behaviour as your not there to see it but definatly check the food mine was on bakers and we found that was causing her issues good luck collies r lovely but hard work to intelligent for their own good lol x


This will not answer your question exactly but I think she is fed normal dog food - maybe 'complete bakers' im not sure; it consists of meaty chunks etc.

I must point out that my mum's partner does feed her the remains of sunday dinner sometimes and will occasionally let her have s*** in my opinion. He does have over 10 years of experience with dogs but is not strict in what she eats.

Not going to crate her for that long, though I don't think we would need to she seems to have calmed down after me training her tricks/taking her out.

yeah collies are amazing (I did just want 100% collie lol) but as you said, are extremely intelligent!

Thanks for the reply x


----------



## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

this might be an idea that i think someone else has suggested but have you considered taking her to agility/flyball? Collies are known to be high energy dogs. Like most dogs they do need the mental simulation and without that you have a dog who's completely bored and due to boredom is obviously going to wreck the house, by means of wanting something to do.

From the sounds of your posts OP, you are getting on the track of solving this problem (yay!). But aside from the 2 hour dog walks perhaps take her training for agility? And if she likes that, if your garden is big enough I think you can make her an agilty course in your back yard and maybe your mum and/or dad can work with her on that as well as the dog walking? 

I know what some parents can be like - Mika, would be a very very very bored boy if i wasn't around because I'm the only one that walks him. My dad will if i've asked him to, he won't do so voluntarily, although he does surprise me once in a while by actually doing so.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Yeah I have thought about it, it sounds great for both dog and owner - would love to see her doing what her form is designed for. 

Yeah things seem to be improving, she has calmed down a lot! Im just keeping my fingers crossed that she doesn't damage anything else because I really think they will move her on. Oh just to mention, its not like they want to they would be absolutely gutted if she wasnt here, they just can't fund any more expensive damage. 

Unfortunately, the garden is not big enough for her to run around. She can play though. 

If im honest, because i didn't buy her, i didn't really think about taking her out etc therefore my mum and her partner were the only ones doing so. It is only since the damage I just thought she can't go that easily. 

Shes been ill today, not sure why


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammclean23 said:


> ... she has calmed down a lot!
> I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that she doesn't damage anything else because I really think
> they will move her on.


used shipping-crate, airline type - see Craigslist, Gumtree, etc. :thumbup1:

it only needs to be large-enuf to ENTER, *U-Turn*, & exit - not stand at full-height, 
nor lie down flat with all 4 legs extended - the dog is meant to lie curled.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If she is fed Bakers you could look at:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html

Bakers is one of, if not the, worst foods for dogs, evenmoreso hyper dogs. It's full of additives and many dogs calm down considerably when they're weaned off it.



sammclean23 said:


> This will not answer your question exactly but I think she is fed normal dog food - maybe 'complete bakers' im not sure; it consists of meaty chunks etc.


----------



## sammclean23 (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for both those suggestions!

Will have a look what food she is on and consider changing it (my mum and partner have no choice any more )

EDIT: she is fed *bakers complete gravy bites 2 in 1*


----------

