# Are all breeders wanting to make money?



## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

I'd be interested to hear peoples thought. 


But why do you think its fair for breeders of certain breeds to be able to charge more for said breed? 

I know some breeders say that it's about "covering costs" or "furthering the breed" 

However how does it cost so much more to breed certain breeds? the vets don't charge more depending on the breed. 

Also take dobermans if you breed the bitch and say have 8 pups at say the lower end of price charge £550 each thats £4400 for the litter. Now vet fees won't be at that level. Say all the puppies are injected for both injections it costs £30 per pup thats £240.. feeding pups say costs £60 Mum would have to be fed no matter what. But say that there is an extra cost there of £100
toys etc for puppys add another £100 

Thats £446 even say mum had to have a C section at £300 and her breeding vet bill was another £200 That still leaves a £3454 profit?

Thats taking the breed price at a low price if I took it at the £650 which is more mid price thats £5200 for the litter.....

So is it really more expensive to breed a pedigree then a mongeral?


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

You havent taken into account health testing or the cost of campaigning a show dog.
IMO anyone who is breeding just for the money isn't a real/ethical breeder in my eyes and wouldnt get my money.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Or the cost in time, most of the really good breeders will spend at least 2 weeks with the bitch 24/7. 

There's more as well that I'm sure I'm not thinking of.



There's a quote thats been mentioned a couple of times on the forum lately which I think is a great point.
Im gonna go look for it
Rocco made a very valid statement about 'hobby' breeders - i.e. the hobby is what you do with the dog, breeding is simply the by-product to continue and improve your lines.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> Or the cost in time, most of the really good breeders will spend at least 2 weeks with the bitch 24/7.
> 
> There's more as well that I'm sure I'm not thinking of.


But what makes it right, say for one breeder of KC registered Labs to charge over £200 more than someone else breeding KC registered Labs?

The difference in price for some breeds that I've seen advertised is crazy.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> You havent taken into account health testing or the cost of campaigning a show dog.
> IMO anyone who is breeding just for the money isn't a real/ethical breeder in my eyes and wouldnt get my money.


Ok so the health testing... is a one off cost of the bitch which is say if using my dobe example one...

£99 for VWB test
£30 eye test
say £150 for hip scaore

Say the bitch has 3-6 litters with 8 - 12 pups per litter that a £75 cost per litter for 4 litters.

Which then still leaves several K over. say you take the £3.5K as two weeks "work" as breeders time. Most of the breeders money is tax free as its cash. this would still equate to a 80K + wage earning for the year.

but thats still making money for "working" with your bitch. so then why do alot of breeders say it's for love of the breed?

What about the KC breeders who don't show their dogs and have no show costs asscoiated with breeding?

I'm just trying to see if from both sides as had some interesting discussions with some people recently. Wanted to hear others views.

Infact the bitches who have been showed and placed well there puppies still seem to have a larger puppy fee again. Which more then covers the show costs and still would leave a very healthy profit...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> But what makes it right, say for one breeder of KC registered Labs to charge over £200 more than someone else breeding KC registered Labs?
> 
> The difference in price for some breeds that I've seen advertised is crazy.


Not if you consider you know nothing about the individual breeders. The quality of their pups, health checks they do etc 

Not all breeders are of the same quality ...


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Not if you consider you know nothing about the individual breeders. The quality of their pups, health checks they do etc
> 
> Not all breeders are of the same quality ...


I would of thought considering your by line youd be an avid anti breeder?

But I have seen some shocking KC breeders who have shown their dogs and they are not good quality but because they have a Kennel name all dogs they breed have a massive price tag... The numbers always seem to point towards a healthy Profit... From what I can see.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

hawksport said:


> No annual heart scan at £140 a time


Sorry i'm just rough hashing the figures. Not that many breeders bother with the heart scan. Definatly hasnt been one I've ever had a breeder tell me about. Especially when I was looking for a puppy!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> I would of thought considering your by line youd be an avid anti breeder?


My "by line" what is that? No idea what you are on about :blink:


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> My "by line" what is that? No idea what you are on about :blink:


"There aren't enough homes for them all, spay or neuter your pet"


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I know lots of breeders that are scanning.
> I have just been offered a free puppy from well bred fully health tested parents. That's not someone who wants to maximise profits.


sadly there are very few breeders that would give there pups free to good homes or even at a more realistic price.

Alot of the ones i've come across feed bad quality food just co it's cheap. Chepaer food costs more profit. Or some breed their bitches several at a time!

One KC one was trying to push the puppy onto us as soon as we walked through the door. When it was 2 weeks old!


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> I'd be interested to hear peoples thought.
> 
> But why do you think its fair for breeders of certain breeds to be able to charge more for said breed?
> Some have small litter size
> ...


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

But your question is are all breeders wanting to make money?

The answer is no, they are not all wanting to make money but undoubtdly (sp) there are some possibly many that are.
There is always a point made on this forum of people saying KC registration is not a guarantee of quality, but it is a start when buying a pup.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Not if you consider you know nothing about the individual breeders. The quality of their pups, health checks they do etc
> 
> Not all breeders are of the same quality ...


I dunno, you might know something and do your research and find out they've both got the same sire...as a friend of mine did...


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Don't forget the time I'm spending researching before hand : )

Were definitely not doing it for profit....we really dont need the extra money!
Were still in the early stages of Reading up & finding out all we need to know.
Tests / registering / studs etc

KC charge for lots of things, registering kennel name, registering litter / each pup, puppy packs etc!

I think to be a true 'hobby breeder' you need to love your dog, love the breed, want to improve, health test, provide the best start physically, emotionally, environmentally for the bitch & litter etc.....a lot of so called hobby breeders have two dogs think breeding is a quick money making fix & stick the pups on a free ads sight 

I think charging more for certain breeds is fine! It's all relative to what people will pay! I will be looking at charging £670 for one of Hollys pups, price alone doesn't guarantee her anything but I'd like to think someone paying a larger sum is more likely to really want one of my potential special babies!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> "There aren't enough homes for them all, spay or neuter your pet"


I am not against RESPONSIBLE breeding, take away the GOOD breeders and you do rescue/animal welfare no favours


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> Ok so the health testing... is a one off cost of the bitch which is say if using my dobe example one...
> 
> £99 for VWB test
> £30 eye test
> ...


Have you forgotten about the taxman also?

He needs his cut


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

babycham2002 said:


> Or the cost in time, most of the really good breeders will spend at least 2 weeks with the bitch 24/7.
> 
> There's more as well that I'm sure I'm not thinking of.
> 
> ...


I did not leave my girl for 4 weeks


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> I dunno, you might know something and do your research and find out they've both got the same sire...as a friend of mine did...


You might, you might not ... That's why people,with any sense DO their research


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Not if you consider you know nothing about the individual breeders. The quality of their pups, health checks they do etc
> 
> Not all breeders are of the same quality ...


Not unlike posters on forums then .....hehehehe


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Starlite said:


> Have you forgotten about the taxman also?
> 
> He needs his cut


Oh yes taxman is alway taking my ££ :crying:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Not unlike posters on forums then .....hehehehe


That's life for you


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

My bitch is in whelp - she is a French import and cost me over £3000 to bring in to the country - I have spent over £1000 on stud fees, progesterone testing and travel costs - she has been hipscored and eye tested at a cost of £200 - I've just ordered a new whelping box ( Snosilk) which cost £475 - I'll need to order 3 pieces of vet bed for around £75 - so far I've spent over £4750 with not a single puppy born - her scan shows that she is carrying 9 pups - we will be keeping one so that leaves me with the grand profit of £450 - and I have not taken into account vaccinations, worming, extra food, registration fees neither have I taken into account the cost of campaigning her or vet fees if god forbid anything goes wrong 

Of course I could have done it cheaper - I could have used an existing bitch and not imported to widen our gene pool - I could have used my own stud dog and saved the stud fee - I could have not health tested and I could have used a cardboard box for her to whelp in - but then I'm after QUALITY not profit.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> You might, you might not ... That's why people,with any sense DO their research


Yeah and when you then do said research, find out there a litter of pups going for £350, and another litter of pups from the same sire going for £560, both mums health checked and with different, but all be it decent lines, what's the cause for that cost increase?

She asked, the breeder had no reason that she thought was valid (excuse was we feed them better quality of food...when she was feeding skinners, and the other was feeding arden grange...)

My mate in the end sacked the lot off and got a rescue from the retreiver shelter.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> Infact the bitches who have been showed and placed well there puppies still seem to have a larger puppy fee again. Which more then covers the show costs and still would leave a very healthy profit...


Does it?

Just to pick up on this point from my own point of view, as I intend taking a litter, possibly 2 depending on the quality of the pups, from my bitch. I only have my 1 girl and don't do all the show due to time and expense but its NOT a cheap thing to do.

Champ shows, you're looking at roughly £30 a time not including fuel which for me is approx £30 a show. Thats £60 give or take per show without taking into account I have no work on that day but thats my choice.

The first year we did 13 champ shows plus opens. I don't even want to figure the cost  If you like showing and have a good dog, then times the figure by each year you show too. That eats any potential profit and more


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> My mate in the end sacked the lot off and got a rescue from the retreiver shelter.


Best thing to do if unhappy buying from a breeder I should say


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

pearltheplank said:


> Does it?
> 
> Just to pick up on this point from my own point of view, as I intend taking a litter, possibly 2 depending on the quality of the pups, from my bitch. I only have my 1 girl and don't do all the show due to time and expense but its NOT a cheap thing to do.
> 
> ...


I am having to think about this aspect...........I can see that by showing you are increasing the interest in your dog and therefore any potential pup....but I am not sure I agree that the cost of showing should be passed on to the purchaser of the pups as you are doing that for your own pleasure as well surely...........if showing isn't for pleasure but to increase the value of any potential pups then it would sort of uphold the OP's position...........like I said maybe I need to think about this more cos this was just a gut reaction.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Why is it one gets a sense of 'deja vu' when these threads arrive.

I can only speak for my own breed in terms of costs - but it's not just vet costs - its all the health testing that goes with it, stud fees, heating bills, washing bills, food when I have a litter is an extortionate cost running into well over £100 a week and I can guarantee you normally, I don't spend any near that feeding 7 adult dogs.

Hip and Elbow Scoring including BVA Fees - £300 to £500
Annual Eye tests - around £50 + depending on which specialist you use and where you are based
Optigen - £120 + the blood test (c £20) and postage to the states costs
CNM - £50

You've now spent around £800 - these are all BEFORE you even consider mating your bitch - things can and DO go wrong - it's happened to me twice - and you are back to the drawing board. 

=============================

Premate - you usually have to buy a pack as it is a vets non stock item - around £120 + around £20 per test including drawing blood

Stud fees - around £400 to £500 (plus travel and accommodation costs) - my first stud dog was an 18 hour round trip - so I stayed - my last stud dog was an 8 hour round trip x 2)

I am also self employed - so if I my bitch isn't kind enough to be ready for mating on a weekend, I don't get paid.

=====================================

That's your expenses up to £1,500 and I don't even know if my bitch is pregnant yet.

Scan to confirm pregnancy - around £70
Whelping box (usually one off expense) - £200
Vet bed - around £60 with each litter
Heat Pads and or Lamps - £30

============================================
We are now at nearly £1,800 and still don't have a litter

Whelping kit odds and ends - probably around £40

Food for the bitch and then pups - around £100 a week for 8 weeks (and no that isn't a wind up - my bitches and pups dine like kings while we often eat like paupers)

Litter Worming - around £60 
Litter Registration - I believe now £15 a pup
Microchipping (soon to probably become mandatory in Wales) - around £20 to £25 per pup

================================

I've now spent £2.7K - add to this - you have a washing machine going pretty much 24x7 for 8 weeks - my last winter litter added £700 to my quarterly bill 

I had just 5 pups to sell - net income considerably less than I paid out - but if money had been at the root of my desire to breed - I wouldn't have done so . 

------------------------------------------

Again - I am self employed - so any time I am not working - I am not getting paid (and believe me there are MUCH easier ways to make money than having a litter) 

None of the above even considers

A C-Section - could be as much as £1K plus (bitches don't tend to honour business hours when they get into difficulty) 

The loss of your entire litter - outlay massive - income zero

The loss of your beloved bitch - outlay massive - loss immeasurable both emotionally and financially

A singleton

===========================================

None of the above takes into account buying or breeding the initial bitch - campaigning her in the ring / field / agility or other speciality for a few years before she has a litter.

===========================================

9 weeks of not seeing your bed and very little sleep, severely chapped hands and often great strain on relationships - not to mention spending a fortune on scented candles and air fresheners.

===========================================

If a breeder is fortunate enough to make money when they are breeding right for the right reasons, good luck to them (but the tax man will also take his two pennence worth of that) - but most good breeders don't set out to make money - if it happens, it happens - but believe me - over time - done properly. for many breeds there is little or no money to be made out of it.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Emmastace said:


> I am having to think about this aspect...........I can see that by showing you are increasing the interest in your dog and therefore any potential pup....but I am not sure I agree that the cost of showing should be passed on to the purchaser of the pups as you are doing that for your own pleasure as well surely...........if showing isn't for pleasure but to increase the value of any potential pups then it would sort of uphold the OP's position...........like I said maybe I need to think about this more cos this was just a gut reaction.


It doesn't necessarily have to be passed on, but it's a justifiable expense as it proves the quality of the dog and also opens the pathway to finding a suitable stud dog. That said, I would always be prepared to pay a few hundred more for a puppy that came from well placed dogs that produce well.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

You misunderstood my reasons for posting. I am merely pointing out that showing is not a cheap thing to do and there is no way that you can add on this cost to your puppy price but if you take everything into account, not many will make profits on litters.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Out of interest, genuinely no idea, how many breeders actually pay tax on the dogs they sell? Wonder how many or few declare it?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

I dont know the going prices of other health tests but I do know that for my dogs it's been:

£45 - eye exam (yearly). (its just gone up to £48 per dog)
£132 - Hip score.
£110 - DNA CEA (However thats if done through a 20/20 clinic which not everyone can get to or use without the 20/20 clinic its about £180 as its sent to America).

=£287 (using 20/20 clinic).

All I can go off is the prices of stuff for my breed. But here goes.
The average for a Shetland sheepdog pup is £700 (£600 to trusted breeders) and the average litter size is 4. (I plan on keeping at least 1 back (if not 2)) 

So for 4 pups sold at £700 each is : £2800

Scan: £40 - £70 depending on vet. (mine charges £70)

Royal Canin - medium starter food. £49.50 (20kg) (2 bags so £99)

Puppy milk - £22 (no doubt will need more than 1 but will only calculate 1).

Teats and bottles - £10

Whelping box - £140 

Canine herpes vaccine - £47 (give or take)

Stud fee - £250

Breeding insurance - £350 (£50 a month, has to have it for 3 months before pups are born). (Insurance only covers £1000 for whelping problems I have known a c-section costing £1500 during emergency times)

Heat lamp: £40.

Premate : £23.50 per test.(fit and fertile)

Eye CEA exam of each puppy: £164 (£41 per pup)

Registration for 4 puppies : £48 (£12 per pup).

= £1550

Because I plan to keep 1 or 2 pups back (however I calculated 1 pup)

"profit" --- £549

However that's not including:
-Heating costs.
-Phone bills (from being on the phone to the vet).
-Vet check ups on all the pups before leaving.
-Chipping (I would like to chip any pups before they leave).
-Dopram V. 
-Cleaning equipment (ie/ carpet cleaner)
-Puppy packs.
-Toys/bedding.

That's just going off memory. 

I have been told by my 3 mentors that any "budget" will go out of the window the second the pups arrive because of hidden costs that no one thinks of.

Lucky because that cost is nothing compaired to the cost of larger puppies and larger breed of dogs.

The price of Shelties is pretty much the same regardless of who the parents are.

So that is basicly the price...if everything goes smoothly and there are 4 pups. 

Show costs are alot even more if you add that you have to travel there, eat and possibly even stay over night.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

But what happens when your bitch that you've spent thousands on showing and working throws only one pup via c-section? What happens when she accidentally sits on the pup and breaks his leg? What then happens when you go to fix that pup's leg and he doesn't wake up from the anaesthesia? This happened to a breeder I know and it is emotionally devastating as well as financially difficult to deal with.

That's 5 figures, spent on this litter for no reward.

Hip Scoring is closer to £300 per dog depending on where you go, PHPv/BVA scheme for eyes, vWD isn't too expensive, (usually around £30-£50 if you choose the North American companies like Vetgen etc), Thyroid, blood panel to test liver/kidney function, DNA dilution test, temperament, and Cardio testing... its all very expensive. Throw in the average stud fee (price of a puppy) of between £500 and £1000. Also the added expense of feeding the bitch in whelp (bump up amount and use more expensive puppy formula), the whelping box, whelping kit, emergency supplies, possible c-section. And then we get to talk about the expenses that come along with raising a litter of puppies, heating and electric bills soar from all of the washing and warming you need to do for the pups. So many mouths to feed, several vet visits for the pups, worming meds, putting together puppy packs for the new owners, all of that time off work so you can properly look after the pups from birth to 4-5 weeks minimum...I'm 100% sure I'm missing several things out, but you get the idea, I am sure (or rather, I am hopeful).

The Dobermann breed is on a precipice as it is. The only people who should be breeding Dobes are the people willing to put in the countless hours working and showing their dogs, rifling through pedigrees and health testing for everything under the sun. The breed doesn't have many responsible/ethical breeders in the UK at the time, as many are very much convinced that their lines are free from DCM and Wobblers, cancer etc. There are no DCM free lines, heart testing is imperative to the breed's future.

I know this is American, but the exchange rate usually hangs around $1.5 to the £1, so working off that, you should be able to get a decent figure on litter costs:

http://dpca.org/BreedEd/kb/index.php/articles/45-breedinggenetics/83-cost-of-breeding-a-doberman-litter


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Out of interest, genuinely no idea, how many breeders actually pay tax on the dogs they sell? Wonder how many or few declare it?


Well the ones on here probably all do


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

To me though, some of the things people are mentioning can be one off purchases, like specialist equipments such as heat lamps, bottles etc. 

Surely the bottles can be sterilised, like a babies?

And as for heating costs, electricity costs...why should things like that be passed on? Wouldn't the heating be on normally?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> And as for heating costs, electricity costs...why should things like that be passed on? Wouldn't the heating be on normally?


Heating in my house is off during the night. Saves a small fortune. When the pups are here they need to be kept warm consistently.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Heating in my house is off during the night. Saves a small fortune. When the pups are here they need to be kept warm consistently.


So what does a heat lamp do then? Is that not enough?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

pearltheplank said:


> You misunderstood my reasons for posting. I am merely pointing out that showing is not a cheap thing to do and there is no way that you can add on this cost to your puppy price but if you take everything into account, not many will make profits on litters.


Most I've spent on a single shows has been about £200 each all in as they were abroad  I think we're actually saying the same thing


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Well the ones on here probably all do


Do you think so? I wonder ...


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

£300 for a C section.... damn, I need to change vets


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> And as for heating costs, electricity costs...why should things like that be passed on? Wouldn't the heating be on normally?


WHO exactly is 'passing the cost on?' - I sell my pups at the bottom end of the range for well bred pups - I sell them for the same price regardless of colour, gender, whether I have 2 or 15 - if I had 15 - I would make some money yes - but you need around a litter of 8 to break even.

The utility costs of raising a litter can be extortionate - you can offset them against the cost of the litter - that is VERY different to 'passing costs on'.

I don't think - oh dear - the weather is minus 10 - I'll have to add an extra £100 on to each pup to cover the costs - if the weather was a perfect 18 degrees and I didn't have to use the tumble dryer or put the heating on - my pups would remain the *SAME PRICE* and that is around £150 less than some breeders charge - my choice - it's not, and never has been about making money - why would it be when I can earn more in a fortnight than I could selling a litter of 8 pups 

===============================

If I added my show costs onto the price of a pup - it would never end - I show nearly every weekend - and often during the week in the summer - at £20 + fuel for an open show - and around £80 + fuel (plus of course not working) for a CH show - multiply that by 50 for Open shows and around 25/30 for CH shows (without even considering fuel and accommodation) - my pups would be around 10 times the price they are 

If you divide that down to just the bitch you are breeding from - around £7 per own show - £350 and £900 for CH shows - that's without travel costs.

My friend and I shared costs to do a show in Scotland last year - without accommodation it cost us nearly £300 between us - the year before it cost us around £500 with accommodation - thats a SINGLE show - we did two in a month - total cost £1K between us - and that was car sharing - with recent fuel costs - I don't even want to think about the costs.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> It doesn't necessarily have to be passed on, but it's a justifiable expense as it proves the quality of the dog and also opens the pathway to finding a suitable stud dog. That said, I would always be prepared to pay a few hundred more for a puppy that came from well placed dogs that produce well.


Don't get me wrong.......when I bought my last bitch I paid £850 for her and that was in 1992. I researched and found a breeder I wanted a pup from and wouldn't have argued the price as she was worth every penny and the easiest, most beautiful girl with a fabulous temprament and lived to 17 with only one health issue in her life (pyo). 
Even though I love my present bitch to death and she has taught me so much more than I ever learnt about dog owning before she was originally puppy farmed and probably cost her first owner a fraction of the price of my last bitch. I know she has been pushed from pillar to post and treated badly before we got her and seeing every single step in progress is worth it's weight in gold, but I would never do it again. The emotional cost is immense and I am not strong enough to put myself up for it another time.
I think in the dog world the saying 'you pays your money and takes your choice' may be true, as is 'you get what you pay for'. I have to admit that I have never personally met a breeder that has any obvious signs of wealth gained by breeding and having a pup that has been bought into this world in the right way is worth everything and it is justifiable in the asking price. Breeders putting a price on their pups to deter spur of the moment purchases is justifiable too. If I put my all into breeding and then some numpty went and ruined the dog once they get it home I would be devastated. 
Saying that, there is a huge difference across the country and some areas charge ridiculous prices for what appears to be similar puppies but without real research into that breed I can't say whether they are or not.
I would rather not be told about showing expenses though, ignorance would be bliss for me there. Probably because I would want to think that the breeder did all that for the love whatever the reality.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> sadly there are very few breeders that would give there pups free to good homes or even at a more realistic price


.

What would you call a realistic price?



> Alot of the ones i've come across feed bad quality food just co it's cheap. Chepaer food costs more profit. Or some breed their bitches several at a time!


I think you're looking at the wrong litters then - none of the breeders I know feed bad quality food. Why would they - they want to give their pups the best start in life.



> £300 for a C section....


 
Where are you living - around here it's three times that cost (and more for out of hours)


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> However how does it cost so much more to breed certain breeds? the vets don't charge more depending on the breed.


Many do actually.

The local vets around here that I would use (theres more than one I wouldnt  ) have a fee of a c-section for a "normal" breed of around £450 (dependng on the weight of the dog etc), but the cheapest price i have been quoted for a pug was £900, going up to about £1500 :blink: No reason given for the difference other than the squashd face.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Saying that, there is a huge difference across the country and some areas charge ridiculous prices for what appears to be similar puppies but without real research into that breed I can't say whether they are or not.


Interestingly - in my own breed - region doesn't seem to come into it (occasionally I struggle to find rhyme or reason for price differences) - my two boys I brought in, I paid more for - both excellent established breeders - and I wanted that breeding - end of conversation - I don't think of my dogs in terms of what I paid for them - but in are they healthy and can they live in harmony with us in the madhouse


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> So what does a heat lamp do then? Is that not enough?


I wouldn't take that risk on a winter litter - a lot of bitches also get very uncomfortable nursing litters under a heat lamp - so I tend to use mine for the last 4/5 weeks when mum starts to wander away - I am not one for heat - but - having also had a summer litter - keeping them warm is more straightforward than cooling them down - we blew out around 4 fans and a ceiling fan with my first litter.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I know LOTS of very reputable Rott breeders who would and have given pups away or at a very reduced rate because they know they are going to a fantastic forever home and in our breed that is paramount:001_smile:

but I'm not wet behind the ears and know for every good breeder there'll be ten a-holes waiting in the wings


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

*If I wanted to do it cheap I could do it like this..*

[before cheap]


> £45 - eye exam (yearly). (its just gone up to £48 per dog)
> £132 - Hip score.
> £110 - DNA CEA (However thats if done through a 20/20 clinic which not everyone can get to or use without the 20/20 clinic its about £180 as its sent to America).
> 
> ...


*After cheap*

No health tests OR do what many sheltie breeders do which is 1 eye exam ever....so for health test cost.
£45

Litter of 4 pups sold at £700 each, will not keep any back because its to make a profit.

So for 4 pups sold at £700 each is : £2800

Scan: what scan?

Food: Wagg 15kg bag £10

Puppy milk - Nah use cows milk..

Teats and bottles - £10

Whelping box - Make my own out of an old moving box. £0

Canine herpes vaccine - No point in this. 

Stud fee - What stud? Just go to the park and let her off lead on a hot day. Or I could use the KC reg sheltie down the road whos owner offered him for £20.

Breeding insurance - She doesnt need insurance.

Heat lamp: No point in this will just fill the box with more paper.

Premate : Nope will guess.

Eye CEA exam of each puppy: £164 (£41 per pup) (or not bother)

Registration for 4 puppies : £48 (£12 per pup).

= £297

Profit : £2503

However that's not including:
-Heating costs.
-Phone bills (from being on the phone to the vet).
-Vet check ups on all the pups before leaving.
-Chipping (I would like to chip any pups before they leave).
-Dopram V. 
-Cleaning equipment (ie/ carpet cleaner)
-Puppy packs.
-Toys/bedding.
-Health tests.
-Real whelping box.
-Stud fee.
-Breeders insurance.
- puppy milk.
-Good food.
-Premate.
-Scan.
-Herpes vaccine.

And if I really wanted to make money...I would charge an extra £100 to register the pups.:glare:

So it can be done cheap....but I would rather be skint and do it right.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

OK I haven't gone mad I promise- are there any breeders out there who do it responsibly and just take the entire financial hit, without even seeking to cover their costs?


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Don't forget time off work- if you're self employed, and unable to work for several weeks.... one word.... OUCH!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> OK I haven't gone mad I promise- are there any breeders out there who do it responsibly and just take the entire financial hit, without even seeking to cover their costs?


I doubt it


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> OK I haven't gone mad I promise- are there any breeders out there who do it responsibly and just take the entire financial hit, without even seeking to cover their costs?


 that's the point - a large majority of us don't cover our costs - ever  As I said in one of my earlier posts - two weeks work for me is the same value as an average sized litter - tell me which you think is the easiest and least heartbreaking - even if I didn't spend a penny on getting my bitch in whelp and fed her on the crappiest food (not to mention that I have to work reduced hours and days when I have that litter)


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> OK I haven't gone mad I promise- are there any breeders out there who do it responsibly and just take the entire financial hit, without even seeking to cover their costs?


If you want to cover your cost you dont breed. Or show... Show folk pay out loads and dont get money in return.

It's cheaper to not breed than breed.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Do you think so? I wonder ...


It was said tongue in cheek hence the 

No breeder on here is going to admit they don't declare their earnings from breeding, especially not on a public forum.

They will be some that do and some that don't...............


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Interestingly - in my own breed - region doesn't seem to come into it (occasionally I struggle to find rhyme or reason for price differences) - my two boys I brought in, I paid more for - both excellent established breeders - and I wanted that breeding - end of conversation - I don't think of my dogs in terms of what I paid for them - but in are they healthy and can they live in harmony with us in the madhouse


I have only really looked at my own breed and they are going for anything between £350 and £900 which is a massive difference. They all seem to be quoting the same lines but I haven't got as far as a proper enquiry to find out the full breeding history of any of them or exactly how far back the 'big names' actually are. There are relatively few breeders though so you do expect the same Kennel names to come up. There is definately a north/south divide on price though. Perhaps because we are starting to suffer from the dreaded 'dog as an accessory' syndrome down here. The work in the city, green welly/4x4's that have never seen a speck of mud at the weekend brigade are rife around here.

Bugger - apologies to all those folk that have high earning jobs but enjoy the country in their time off. I will learn one day :lol:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> It was said tongue in cheek hence the
> 
> No breeder on here is going to admit they don't declare their earnings from breeding, especially not on a public forum.
> 
> They will be some that do and some that don't...............


I can lend you a spade, I have loads, using them all the time :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> I have only really looked at my own breed and they are going for anything between £350 and £900 which is a massive difference.


 is that for pups bred in the same way? (i.e. health tested parents / ethical breeders etc) - that's a HUGE difference - I know we have 'bargain basement pups around here' with no health tests done - but even then there isn't such a price differential between the best and the worst


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

swarthy said:


> is that for pups bred in the same way? (i.e. health tested parents / ethical breeders etc) - that's a HUGE difference - I know we have 'bargain basement pups around here' with no health tests done - but even then there isn't such a price differential between the best and the worst


For shelties its always around the same price however I saw some this week on a pet free add site at £300, they were not kc registered, no health tests and no information on the parents.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> I have only really looked at my own breed and they are going for anything between £350 and £900 which is a massive difference. They all seem to be quoting the same lines but I haven't got as far as a proper enquiry to find out the full breeding history of any of them or exactly how far back the 'big names' actually are. There are relatively few breeders though so you do expect the same Kennel names to come up. There is definately a north/south divide on price though. Perhaps because we are starting to suffer from the dreaded 'dog as an accessory' syndrome down here. The work in the city, green welly/4x4's that have never seen a speck of mud at the weekend brigade are rife around here.
> 
> Bugger - apologies to all those folk that have high earning jobs but enjoy the country in their time off. I will learn one day :lol:


Have you got GSPs? Hard to see from your avatar thingy


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> I can lend you a spade, I have loads, using them all the time :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


It wasn't me who brought the subject up in the first place it was Amethyst 

But who is going to answer that question saying that the don't declare their earnings:smilewinkgrin:

I think Amethyst should get the spade first


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

No I get that, but what I meant was from like a principled viewpoint.. 

I was wondering because our family had a litter once- it was a pregnant stray, she needed a C-section at 2am, there were ten pups, seven survived- all had to be hand reared. Obviously at a heavy financial loss. My parents are old skool hippy types and were/are very strong on the ethics of money and animals so they wouldn't accept a penny for them. It's what they felt personally comfortable with. 

I had just wondered if there were people in breeding that have that type of approach but in a planned way. Like as in saving in advance for the litter without wanting any financial recompense of any description and I don't mean a profit, but anything. I had always assumed that there would be some people out there who could afford to do it all for love. Not all by any means but some surely.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> But who is going to answer that question saying that the don't declare their earnings:smilewinkgrin:


I am self employed and technically if you were to declare earnings on a litter, then it would be classed a viable business meaning that all expenses could be offset. That would include any heating etc for litters, show costs, insurances, food, vet bills of any kind etc etc. Therefore as far as a business and ultimately the taxman, there would be no profit to declare


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> I had just wondered if there were people in breeding that have that type of approach but in a planned way. Like as in saving in advance for the litter without wanting any financial recompense of any description and I don't mean a profit, but anything. I had always assumed that there would be some people out there who could afford to do it all for love. Not all by any means but some surely.


I very much doubt it 

By the way your mum and dad sound great


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Out of interest, genuinely no idea, how many breeders actually pay tax on the dogs they sell? Wonder how many or few declare it?


I have no idea but I will say this much....

The turnover income is totally different to taxable profit for a start.

You only pay tax on profits made and some of the figures qutoted here are below the yearly allowance from which you have to pay tax.

But.....

Every penny a breeder spends breeding dogs they can claim back and that includes...

Petrol for going to shows
Food
Bedding
Health tests
Depreciation on the car
a % of the domestic electric bill
A % on domestic gas bill

I could go on but everything is claimable, even washing powder.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

NO - not all breeders breed for money, for some the profit that can be made has nothing to do with planning a litter - for starters you have no idea what loss or gain you will make on a litter when planning it! 
People buy in dogs/import dogs at high prices, get them tested, have them prove themselves as good examples of the breed ect .. ect it all comes at a cost. 
Puppies are not cheap to raise and when done to high standard you could spend every last penny you own on your litter, and most responsible breeders do.

Breeders good and bad will make money on some litters. If an ethical breeder makes a wee profit of £50 on a litter or even £500 I would not begrudge them of that, the time, effort, love, passion and hard work put into raising well adjusted puppies which results in well balanced, good quality puppies is just PRICESLESS.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

swarthy said:


> is that for pups bred in the same way? (i.e. health tested parents / ethical breeders etc) - that's a HUGE difference - I know we have 'bargain basement pups around here' with no health tests done - but even then there isn't such a price differential between the best and the worst


I don't know cos I haven't asked the right questions because if I did it would be just my luck to find out about a great pup and then I would want it and then I would have the dilemma of introducing a pup to Mia which may or may not help her........it would be a minefield. But those potential owners that don't have too much experience in the breed may not look any further than the names being bandied about and may not know what they are getting for their money. They could think the more they pay the better they are which as you know it not necessarily true depending on how it is bred.
This is a real tough one for me because I have had both ends of the spectrum, albeit the differences in owner experience being a lot to do with early nurture in my dogs case. It could have gone the other way and the dog I paid the least for could have turned out the best if she had had the same start as the other one.
As far as the start of this thread is concerned I can see why the question is asked as sometimes there is a big difference in price for what could look like similar pups and lets face it there are an awful lot of dog owners that don't look too far for their dog and a number of unethical breeders that don't look too far for owners.
Obviously people who bother to write on here care more than most or they wouldn't take the time to discuss these things. But the fact that there are some breeders who do it for money can't be escaped or we would never have to post about byb's/puppy farms etc. I don't think anyone would ever think that all breeders make money or even make breaking even their priority.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks, it was fourteen years ago, I was 12 and even though my memory is rubbish I remember those 8 weeks like they were yesterday. They day they were born was one of the best days of my life. We kept in touch with all the pups, got photo updates, had meet ups etc... The first of the litter passed away last year aged 14, my Boo boo bear


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Heating in my house is off during the night. Saves a small fortune. When the pups are here they need to be kept warm consistently.


And if you declare everything you can claim 25~37% of that back off HMRC


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> As far as the start of this thread is concerned I can see why the question is asked as sometimes there is a big difference in price for what could look like similar pups and lets face it there are an awful lot of dog owners that don't look too far for their dog and a number of unethical breeders that don't look too far for owners.
> 
> Obviously people who bother to write on here care more than most or they wouldn't take the time to discuss these things. But the fact that there are some breeders who do it for money can't be escaped or we would never have to post about byb's/puppy farms etc. I don't think anyone would ever think that all breeders make money or even make breaking even their priority.


I think the frustration is (along with the frustration on some other breeding threads is - it's nearly always the 'same old, same old' and there are some who do truly believe that breeders must make money - and respond when you try to respond that "you doth protest too much" - so you can't win - and I think the reason people continue to protest is because the whole situation is so frustrating.

If you saw what my bitches eat during the first two to four weeks of raising a litter -I think some people would choke  - and it's not a case of stopping feeding mum and feeding the pups, you have this whole balance shift over a period of a few weeks.

I am sure there are some breeds where health tests are minimal (or even non existent) - and some of these breeds do sell for high prices - but none of us has any idea of the costs that may go into that to start with - and -

If it was about money - then even doing it properly - we would be doing it with a breed with small outlay and high sales prices with reasonable sized litters - rather than the breed we have just that little (or usually a lot) more passion about than we have for dogs in general.

Even the showing - in numerically large breeds - it's not unusual to have classes of 30 to 40 dogs at CH shows - so you get up as some god forsaken hour - travel half way across the country - and then come home without a bit of card (which is incidentally for anyone who doesn't know - what you win in the showring unless you get BIS, RBIS or BPIS (which at a CH show - you have to beat literally thousands of dogs to do so - even at open and limit shows you can be competing against anything from 100 to over 1000 dogs along the way assuming you progress that far. (that's not at the same time, but you have to win your own breed, then often all the other dogs in the group - and then all the winners of the other 6 groups.

We've had a BPIS, RBPIS, and a BOS in show - total prize money - £10 - a trophy and a host of rosettes.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Bijou said:


> My bitch is in whelp - she is a French import and cost me over £3000 to bring in to the country - I have spent over £1000 on stud fees, progesterone testing and travel costs - she has been hipscored and eye tested at a cost of £200 - I've just ordered a new whelping box ( Snosilk) which cost £475 - I'll need to order 3 pieces of vet bed for around £75 - so far I've spent over £4750 with not a single puppy born - her scan shows that she is carrying 9 pups - we will be keeping one so that leaves me with the grand profit of £450 - and I have not taken into account vaccinations, worming, extra food, registration fees neither have I taken into account the cost of campaigning her or vet fees if god forbid anything goes wrong
> 
> Of course I could have done it cheaper - I could have used an existing bitch and not imported to widen our gene pool - I could have used my own stud dog and saved the stud fee - I could have not health tested and I could have used a cardboard box for her to whelp in - but then I'm after QUALITY not profit.


Have a question, You said grand profit of £450 - and I have not taken into account vaccinations, worming, extra food, registration fees neither have I taken into account the cost of campaigning her or vet fees if god forbid anything goes wrong . The next time she breeds though, won't there be a greater profit. Not trying to cause trouble, just after the first time you covered the cost for most of it. Looking at it from a business stand point , the whelping box can be used for other dogs. 
The other part that I see factors in to it people say part of the price is showing the dogs. I can not see how that betters the breed. I thought when some one wants to better the breed they try to breed out the bad qualities of the dog or health issues? I am not a breeder, just don't understand some of the responses.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

firsttime said:


> The other part that I see factors in to it people say part of the price is showing the dogs. I can not see how that betters the breed.


Ermm show for alot of breeders is a massive factor. Its a way of having many different experience breed specalists go over your dogs - giving their opinion proving them to be a good example of the breed if thats the case!

Of course ethical breeders want to breed for health and tempermant but conformation is also important.
I also dont understand what you mean by breeding out the bad traits? Do you mean working on weak points in a dog, or do work on things not desired in a breed - Have you got an example?


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

If all breeders make a loss as its claimed , how can anyone afford to do it ?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

firsttime said:


> I am not a breeder, just don't understand some of the responses.


Did I dream you posted that your dog and bitch tied then? like it it or not, if the litter goes ahead - that makes you a breeder



Mese said:


> If all breeders make a loss as its claimed , how can anyone afford to do it ?


Because many of us worked damned hard to pay for it - that's how!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Mese said:


> If all breeders make a loss as its claimed , how can anyone afford to do it ?


No breeder will make a loss on all litters..


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> .
> 
> What would you call a realistic price?
> 
> ...


Preston lancashire... the Vet I use is amazing and charged one of my customers £150 for an emergency C on her Chi.

I own a pet shop and have alot of customers come in with puppies that breeders get rid of at 5 or 6 weeks... that feed them on wagg or such like!

Alot of them feed them poorly and don't even use proper wormer... don't give them injections and then charge a fortune. Surely thats all about the money making?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> I own a pet shop and have alot of customers come in with puppies that breeders get rid of at 5 or 6 weeks... that feed them on wagg or such like!
> 
> Alot of them feed them poorly and don't even use proper wormer... don't give them injections and then charge a fortune. Surely thats all about the money making?


Ayy but you are talking of one type of breeder, there are MANY types of different breeders dont just look and one and make your opinion based on that


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I think if you show your dogs that shouldn't go into the equation on litter costs as people do that for a hobby and cause they enjoy it. A lot of things don't change when you have a litter such as heat here in Canada the heat is on all the time until late spring so I wouldn't include that, I also wouldn't include time off work as it was my choice to stay with the pups, if you can't stay with them don't have a litter. Health tests you can spilt those costs by the amount of litters she has preferably only 2 or 3 max. and the annual tests per litter such as PRA. It doesn't bother me if a breeder makes a profit as long as they are doing it correctly. I make or do crafts I sell them it doesn't cover my time probably not the costs of the materials but I enjoy it and make a little bit of cash if I do make a profit yippee...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> Infact the bitches who have been showed and placed well there puppies still seem to have a larger puppy fee again. Which more then covers the show costs and still would leave a very healthy profit...


Not read the whole thread yet so someone may already have answered this - but show costs are much more than you seem to realise. First of all, the entry fees - if a bitch has been campaigned from being a six month old puppy unti she is two and a half years old, the entry fees alone (between £20 and £25 per dog per class) would be more than the price of the whole litter. There are 26 general championship shows each year - that's between £1040 and £1300. Then there are numerous breed championship shows - for our border collies there are 8 championship shows each year, plus a further three Working and Pastoral Championship shows each year - so that's at least another £500. Now not all breeders show at each one - but if you want your bitch to do well enough to be able to charge more for the pups, then you will have to do a large number of them.

Then there is the cost of petrol to each show - and shows are all around the country from Edinburgh to Bournemouth, from Blackpool to Peterborough, and not forgetting Belfast (with the cost of ferry crossing as well).

Then there is the cost of accommodation for the shows too far away to travel there and back in one day, and the cost of having to eat meals out at some stage.

Then there is the cost of show equipment - trolleys, cages, benching chains, show collars and leads, show suits for the handlers etc etc.

So someone who has a bitch who has done well at shows may well charge more for pups than the farmer down the road, but will already be vastly out of pocket before you even start to add in the cost of health testing, stud fees, vets fees (btw, a C-Section could cost over a grand if needed out of hours), feeding and looking after the puppies for eight weeks, lost wages (most people will have to take time off without pay to look after their litters cos not a lot of people have eight weeks worth of holidays) - do you still think breeders who show will be making a lot of money from their litters?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I am not a breeder, just don't understand some of the responses.



Have you not just mated your dog and bitch? Assuming she has taken and has pups you WILL be a breeder.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> I think if you show your dogs that shouldn't go into the equation on litter costs as people do that for a hobby and cause they enjoy it.


I agree but its also promoting your breed/lines & dogs..


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> sadly there are very few breeders that would give there pups free to good homes or even at a more realistic price.
> 
> Alot of the ones i've come across feed bad quality food just co it's cheap. Chepaer food costs more profit. Or some breed their bitches several at a time!
> 
> One KC one was trying to push the puppy onto us as soon as we walked through the door. When it was 2 weeks old!


By a KC breeder, do you mean a KC Accredited Breeder, or do you just mean that the breeder said the litter was registered with the KC? There is a difference. If this was a KC Accredited Breeder, I hoped you reported him/her.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Preston lancashire... the Vet I use is amazing and charged one of my customers £150 for an emergency C on her Chi.


Well your vet is very rare. £150 barely even covers and out of hours consultation here. An out of hours c-section at least £1400.



> I own a pet shop and have alot of customers come in with puppies that breeders get rid of at 5 or 6 weeks... that feed them on wagg or such like!
> 
> Alot of them feed them poorly and don't even use proper wormer... don't give them injections and then charge a fortune. Surely thats all about the money making?


Yes, it is a lot about money making, but your customers are buying from byb and puppy farmers. Perhaps you could help educate them how to find a pup from a reputable breeder. This vile industry keeps going because people buy these puppies. If no one bought them they wouldn't breed.

The problem is, all the time people think that well bred puppies are too expensive (when in reality the breeder has probably only just broken even), and go and buy cheap puppies, then what hope is there.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> By a KC breeder, do you mean a KC Accredited Breeder, or do you just mean that the breeder said the litter was registered with the KC? There is a difference. If this was a KC Accredited Breeder, I hoped you reported him/her.


I've reported a KC accredited breeder and nothing was done..... the system sadly doesn't always work. The bitch was 2.5 and on her 2nd litter although her teats were swinging by her ankles she was in shocking condition and the scally breeder wanted to push her puppies! It made me sick!

I see her puppies up for re sale alll the time... they make some of the oddest looking dobes and seem to have probs....


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> £300 for a C section.... damn, I need to change vets


My bitch had a c section 7 weeks ago the cost was £400 for a whippet. A person I know whose whippet bicth had a section in the middle of the night paid over £1500 I have been told.

If the OP thinks you can feed a litter for £60 I'd like to know what she thinks they are fed on my 8 must be costing about £30 a week plus the extras the bitch is having.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> I think if you show your dogs that shouldn't go into the equation on litter costs as people do that for a hobby and cause they enjoy it. A lot of things don't change when you have a litter such as heat here in Canada the heat is on all the time until late spring so I wouldn't include that, I also wouldn't include time off work as it was my choice to stay with the pups, if you can't stay with them don't have a litter. Health tests you can spilt those costs by the amount of litters she has preferably only 2 or 3 max. and the annual tests per litter such as PRA. It doesn't bother me if a breeder makes a profit as long as they are doing it correctly. I make or do crafts I sell them it doesn't cover my time probably not the costs of the materials but I enjoy it and make a little bit of cash if I do make a profit yippee...


No-one said they did include showing costs - did they? 



canuckjill said:


> I think if you show your dogs that shouldn't go into the equation on litter costs as people do that for a hobby and cause they enjoy it. A lot of things don't change when you have a litter such as heat here in Canada the heat is on all the time until late spring so I wouldn't include that, I also wouldn't include time off work as it was my choice to stay with the pups, if you can't stay with them don't have a litter. Health tests you can spilt those costs by the amount of litters she has preferably only 2 or 3 max. and the annual tests per litter such as PRA. It doesn't bother me if a breeder makes a profit as long as they are doing it correctly. I make or do crafts I sell them it doesn't cover my time probably not the costs of the materials but I enjoy it and make a little bit of cash if I do make a profit yippee...


The point I was making about time off work - is just that - if you work for yourself - you are not getting paid - SO - if you wanted to make money - which would actually earn some? the pups or the business? I know what my answer is by a very LONG way - and that's the point some people seem to be missing.

Even if a good breeder does make some money out of a litter - it's amusing (or frightening) to work out the hourly rate of monitoring the pups 24/7 x 8 weeks plus the week up to whelping - not to mention the time spent visiting the stud. If it fell into the category of wages - the powers that be would have a field day. It's even funnier if you take any profit after expenses :lol:

I don't think I know of a single breeder in my breed who doesn't either work or run their own business - yes there are some retired who are now at the pinnacle of their show and breeding careers - the remainder are juggling businesses (and often families - I waited until my daughter was grown up first) with showing and breeding.



rocco33 said:


> Well your vet is very rare. £150 barely even covers and out of hours consultation here. An out of hours c-section at least £1400.


Tell me - I paid £160 on a Saturday afternoon when one of my pups had a knock in the garden - thankfully no long term effects - but that was to literally 'see the vet' and get some metacam.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

swarthy said:


> We've had a BPIS, RBPIS, and a BOS in show - total prize money - £10 - a trophy and a host of rosettes.


And don't forget the prize money from Best in Show at Crufts, the most prestigious dog showin the world - a whole £100!!! :lol: Wouldn't even have covered the cost of our entries, petrol and parking fees this year!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> sadly there are very few breeders that would give there pups free to good homes or even at a more realistic price.


See, I find that quite insulting. As Swarthy says, we work hard at jobs that have nothing to do with dogs to be able to afford to enjoy our hobby which involves dogs. Part of that may involve breeding.

So, we spend a small fortune on breeding, give up 8 weeks of our lives not to mention the stress and work involved and you think we should give our pups away to strangers for free or at a more realistic price? 

Sorry, but we value our pups far more than that. If someone only wants a cheap or free pup, then they aren't worthy of one of mine!

The average price for my breed, from health tested parents, well raised, is £600. Assuming the dog lives on average 12 years (although most will live longer), that works out at a cost of just over £4 per month. Jeez people spend more than that a day on cigarettes or a couple of drinks a month!  

And yet it's too much to spend on a dog which has cost a small fortune and much hard work and possible heartache to raise.  

With that attitude no wonder we will never get rid of byb!


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> And don't forget the prize money from Best in Show at Crufts, the most prestigious dog showin the world - a whole £100!!! :lol: Wouldn't even have covered the cost of our entries, petrol and parking fees this year!


That wouldnt have covered the cost of us going without entering dogs. Haha. So I can only guess how much it costs to enter the dogs, eat for yourself, travel, possibly stay over and buy supplies on the day.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

swarthy said:


> No-one said they did include showing costs - did they?
> 
> The point I was making about time off work - is just that - if you work for yourself - you are not getting paid - SO - if you wanted to make money - which would actually earn some? the pups or the business? I know what my answer is by a very LONG way - and that's the point some people seem to be missing.
> 
> ...


Sorry I thought I read it in this thread somewhere. My point is really if you are a good breeder and manage to make a profit i see nothing wrong with it, as most people on this forum anyway, breed for other reasons (thank goodness) and aren't trying to make a profit to live on. I had a litter of little cross pups last year and if I took my time, there food, shots, vet check deworming, mom's vet care extra food and puppy packs into account I probably made zilch. I also delivered a couple of them to their new homes 200 miles away as I wanted to meet the new owners personally and if I hadn't liked em they wouldn't have got em out of my car


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

swarthy said:


> No-one said they did include showing costs - did they?





canuckjill said:


> Sorry I thought I read it in this thread somewhere.r


I posted about show costs because the OP seemed to think that the extra amount charged for a puppy from a bitch who had done well at shows would more than cover the cost of showing her - which, of course, it wouldn't.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> So I can only guess how much it costs to enter the dogs, eat for yourself, travel, possibly stay over and buy supplies on the day.


All of which you can claim 100% of back from HMRC


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> All of which you can claim 100% of back from HMRC


LOL.

Sorry. Shouldnt laugh.

Wonder how much you could claim back on poo bags. :lol:

Thing is....breeders work very hard to look after their pups and spend loads more than what most people think. So why should they give their pups away free or cheap when owning a dog is not exactly cheap.

Free/Cheap usually attracts the wrong people.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Our pup is a cross or a mutt whatever you want to call her. My breeder has said she wont be making any money from this litter, she never made any from the last. All the money that comes from the pups being bought goes to pay for thier vaccinations, good food, and for any emergency costs.

Our pup is costing us 450$ the others are going for 550$.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> That wouldnt have covered the cost of us going without entering dogs. Haha. So I can only guess how much it costs to enter the dogs, eat for yourself, travel, possibly stay over and buy supplies on the day.





The O'Mali's Dad said:


> All of which you can claim 100% of back from HMRC


Wow - so Shetlandlover can claim 100% of her costs back from the taxman for going to visit a dog show? (She was at Crufts as a visitor, not an exhibitor  ) Does that work for all kinds of shows? If it does, I'm going to get Dancing on Ice tickets and claim their cost and my expenses! :lol:


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I posted about show costs because the OP seemed to think that the extra amount charged for a puppy from a bitch who had done well at shows would more than cover the cost of showing her - which, of course, it wouldn't.


I will be selling Freyja's pups for the same price as I sold my last litter nearly 3 years ago. Freyja when she was being shown in Ireland won 3 green star majors in the old system and if she had not been retired would have easily been made up to a champion. Tegan the dam of the last litter did little in the ring but her previous pups had done really well in the ring.

I have seen advertised whippet pups for £600-£700 each from parents who are no more than pets. We had a couple come from Suffolk for a pup because it was cheaper for them to buy a pup from us and pay the petrol to collect it than to buy a pup from Suffolk


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Our pup is a cross or a mutt whatever you want to call her. My breeder has said she wont be making any money from this litter, she never made any from the last. All the money that comes from the pups being bought goes to pay for thier vaccinations, good food, and for any emergency costs.
> 
> Our pup is costing us 450$ the others are going for 550$.


How comes you get yours for less - and I think she will make some profit..


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Wow - so Shetlandlover can claim 100% of her costs back from the taxman for going to visit a dog show? (She was at Crufts as a visitor, not an exhibitor  ) Does that work for all kinds of shows? If it does, I'm going to get Dancing on Ice tickets and claim their cost and my expenses! :lol:


Can I get the westlife tickets that I got in 2002 cost back 

I seem to be spending more at shows when I go as a visitor....so shall see how much I spend at the next show were I am showing.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> All of which you can claim 100% of back from HMRC


Since when? I have been told you can for studs (classed as advertising) - but not for bitches.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

we have given puppies away before. To friends - close friends within the breed (some do show/some dont). Advertising puppies free though is never a good idea!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Can I get the westlife tickets that I got in 2002 cost back
> 
> I seem to be spending more at shows when I go as a visitor....so shall see how much I spend at the next show were I am showing.


Don't know - perhaps the O'Mali's Dad has more information on how long back you can claim your show tickets? Now let me see, where have I been in the last few years........... :lol:


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> How comes you get yours for less - and I think she will make some profit..


I dunno shes had to pay out alot already for an emergency c section so if she does make over itll just be simple pocket change.

We are getting our girl for less because we were the first to call up, we call twice a week  , been to visit twice now will visit two more times before she comes home. She said she feels like were the best home for her pup and is really happy with us in general :001_smile: Id like to take that as a complement as I have no confidence when it comes to speaking and putting myself out there with people I dont know.

Psssst foud a Chinese crested Breeder rescue gonna see if there events we can help out at even though there a 4 hrs drive away Singing:


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Don't know - perhaps the O'Mali's Dad has more information on how long back you can claim your show tickets? Now let me see, where have I been in the last few years........... :lol:


Hahaha,

Like I said poo bags cost me a fortune...Who knew dogs poo'd so much. We took Scorcher for a walk on her own yesterday just round the block and came back with 13 poo bags of poo. :blink:


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> LOL.
> 
> Sorry. Shouldnt laugh.
> 
> ...


What are you on about?

My post was in response to you expenses when going to shows a a breeder in "business"

Obviously you are not doing this as a business or declaring anything.

Talk to an accountant and see who is talking shyt.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I dunno shes had to pay out alot already for an emergency c section so if she does make over itll just be simple pocket change.
> 
> We are getting our girl for less because we were the first to call up, we call twice a week  , been to visit twice now will visit two more times before she comes home. She said she feels like were the best home for her pup and is really happy with us in general :001_smile: Id like to take that as a complement as I have no confidence when it comes to speaking and putting myself out there with people I dont know.
> 
> Psssst foud a Chinese crested Breeder rescue gonna see if there events we can help out at even though there a 4 hrs drive away Singing:


Hmm from a breeding/buying point of view its rather unfair and wrong to change so much less for a pup due to contacting them first. She should feel all homes are the best, and therefore no need to lower the price of 'the best' as they would all be the best if that makes sense.

Oh yes certainly help with the rescues if you can. We work with out breed rescues and its almost as rewarding as having your own pups, go on to better things


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> What are you on about?
> 
> My post was in response to you expenses when going to shows a a breeder in "business"
> 
> ...


 
She hasnt even had a litter to be declaring anything :lol:


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> What are you on about?
> 
> My post was in response to you expenses when going to shows a a breeder in "business"
> 
> ...




I wasnt accusing you of talking poo...I just dont know of any breeders who claim their costs back.

I dont think of dog breeding as a business either, I dont know what I class it as. A business and a hobby are regular things and breeding once every other year or so is not something I class regular enough to be a hobby or a business... I just use the term "breeder". Well currently I dont anything because I am not a breeder yet.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Wow - so Shetlandlover can claim 100% of her costs back from the taxman for going to visit a dog show? (She was at Crufts as a visitor, not an exhibitor  ) Does that work for all kinds of shows? If it does, I'm going to get Dancing on Ice tickets and claim their cost and my expenses! :lol:


And what the hell has dancing on ice got to do with a business breeding dogs?

You cant in on breath claim that the expense of going to dog shows reflects on the price of a pup and then bring dancing on ice into it.

Its either a business or not in which case you can claim any expense to do with that business profit making or not.

This thread proves to me most done declare anything and have no idea about how business works.

No better than BYB.

Dancing on ice.........grow up!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Hmm from a breeding/buying point of view its rather unfair and wrong to change so much less for a pup due to contacting them first. She should feel all homes are the best, and therefore no need to lower the price of 'the best' as they would all be the best if that makes sense.
> 
> Oh yes certainly help with the rescues if you can. We work with out breed rescues and its almost as rewarding as having your own pups, go on to better things


Id like to think its done to us being a good home. But I see where your coming from  2 other pups are going with family members that she told me. She turned someone down that offered her 100$ more to have our pup because they liked her (and on closer expectation she asked them why and its because the pup looked like their boy dog sent red alarms off for her and they left without a pup)

Another person called and asked if her brother could come and pick out a pup for her, immediate no from her.

But I get what you mean.

Thanks I had no clue about this rescue until we looked up on kijiji (big ad website here) and saw to chinese rescues ad's. Thanks my moms excited :001_smile:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Cresties need all the help they can get right now! Or I need a big sword to chop the heads of the vile monsters exploiting them!  we currently have a few fosters in!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Since when? I have been told you can for studs (classed as advertising) - but not for bitches.


Im not sure what you mean TBH but just like any business with an income it should be declared to HMRC if you make a profit or not.

That works both ways which means you can claim back any of you expenses associated with that business be that you electric costs or washing powder.

Im not a breeder but I claim for my dogs expenses against my tax bill as they are gaurd dogs.

If the tax man wants to test that by entering my yard, he/she will see!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Cresties need all the help they can get right now! Or I need a big sword to chop the heads of the vile monsters exploiting them!  we currently have a few fosters in!


My boyfriend has several life sized chopping swords if they will be of any help (thats if you can lift them lol)

Sorry to hear that. There were quite a few ads for some we hadnt seen the ads before as we were looking in our city not any others. But there is a 1 year old boy here my mom is soooo tempted.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> She hasnt even had a litter to be declaring anything :lol:


And this thread is not about her personally.

Nor my post.

Laugh all you like, Im the one laughing about how some of you are bleeting about expenses but have no clue that you can claim them back.

Stinks of "hobby breeders"


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

It is I that started the thing about the cost of campaigning a show dog, admitedly I dont even breed but I do show and I know how much it costs. My last two champ shows alone have cost me £400.
I don't want to see the costs broke down when I go to see a breeder but I am happy to pay more for my show prospect puppy from CH /JW parents ( I am obv aware that winners dont always produce winners etc etc) Than Mr and Mrs pet CCs from down the roads litter.

Thank you to spellweaver for your excellent post on the cost of campaiging a dog. Yes it is a hobby a fantastic hobby which I and the other show people enjoy very much, but I don't think it can be completely discounted when taking into account puppy price.

I struggle to see where the argument comes from.
Yes BYBs and Puppy farmers are going to be making a profit on most if not all of their litters.
Few great/ethical breeders are going to make a profit on every litter.
IF you wanted to take showing into acount then very few if any breeders are going to make any profit at all. (I must add that that includes working dogs Im sure also )


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> And this thread is not about her personally.
> 
> Nor my post.
> 
> ...


You like to feel like your running a business, dog breeding isnt and never should be a business.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> I just dont know of any breeders who claim their costs back.


Now theres a suprise!

Maybe thats because they are not declaring the income.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You like to feel like your running a business, dog breeding isnt and never should be a business.


Rubbish!

Tell that to HMRC.

Some of the figures quoted here are a high turnover regardless of profit or loss.

Why should it not be a business?

There is free money waiting for you by way of tax losses on your expenses?

Business does not always equal hard not caring.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> Tell that to HMRC.
> 
> ...


You can 'rubbish' it all you like - its my opinion and one that will never change for that matter!
As soon as breeding becomes a business for anyone breed - it goes down hill  Agree or not I really am not bothered!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You can 'rubbish' it all you like - its my opinion and one that will never change for that matter!
> As soon as breeding becomes a business for anyone breed - it goes down hill  Agree or not I really am not bothered!


Well dont bleet about your overheads then as that is all part of the Business.

If you/them/who ever breeds went legal and claimed them back,you/them could charge the punter less :wink:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Well dont bleet about your overheads then as that is all part of the Business.


ermm excuse me - where have I bleeted anything?  Breeding isnt a flipping business and I have never bred a dog of mine


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Well dont bleet about your overheads then as that is all part of the Business.
> 
> If you/them/who ever breeds went legal and claimed them back,you/them could charge the punter less :wink:


Went Legal? are you suggesting we are doing something illegal? I put my tax returns in and include the details IF I have bred a litter in that year.

If you invested nothing, you could not live on the income from a single litter in 12 months - to breed properly and make a living - you have to breed a HELL of a lot of pups - and the minute you go there - then you are no longer a hobby breeder - as I said earlier - why would anyone want to? there are easier ways of making money


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> It wasn't me who brought the subject up in the first place it was Amethyst
> 
> But who is going to answer that question saying that the don't declare their earnings:smilewinkgrin:
> 
> I think Amethyst should get the spade first


Puppies are classed as property and any "income" should be declared BUT then again anything you sell be it via Ebay, Gumtree etc... should also be declared-------------Anyone do that!!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> ermm excuse me - where have I bleeted anything?  Breeding isnt a flipping business and I have never bred a dog of mine


I never said you did but you have strong opinions on all the posts regarding breeding and I have seen some with the words "our pups" etc

So who is it, your parents?


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Stinks of "hobby breeders"


Excuse me!.... Hobby breeder and proud of it


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Went Legal? are you suggesting we are doing something illegal? I put my tax returns in and include the details IF I have bred a litter in that year.
> 
> If you invested nothing, you could not live on the income from a single litter in 12 months - to breed properly and make a living - you have to breed a HELL of a lot of pups - and the minute you go there - then you are no longer a hobby breeder - as I said earlier - why would anyone want to? there are easier ways of making money


Yes it is illegal to turn over a certain amount on a regular basis and not declare to HMRC regardless of if you make a living from it or not.

Some of the figures quoted in the OP equate to a "business" for sure.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

gladass said:


> Puppies are classed as property and any "income" should be declared BUT then again anything you sell be it via Ebay, Gumtree etc... should also be declared-------------Anyone do that!!!!!


Not quite,one can sell aunt dolly's old china no problem.

Turn over the amounts talked about in the OP and yes it has to become business.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> I never said you did but you have strong opinions on all the posts regarding breeding and I have seen some with the words "our pups" etc
> 
> So who is it, your parents?


Read back ... You most certainly did tell me not to bleet  which I hadnt!
Of course I have strong opinion on breeding anyone truely passionate about dogs and their welfare have.

Yes mums a breeder - and I do class them as our pups as I am involved with all aspects of raising them ect. However I am not a breeder, have never (as yet ..) planned a litter - or let my dogs have a litter


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> Excuse me!.... Hobby breeder and proud of it


Good for you and your rep is great from what I read but is there not a thread on here where some say "hobby breeder = baaaaad"?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> And what the hell has dancing on ice got to do with a business breeding dogs?
> 
> You cant in on breath claim that the expense of going to dog shows reflects on the price of a pup and then bring dancing on ice into it.
> 
> ...


Ooooh - get you! Had you figured as someone who could take a joke - sorry, my mistake. Won't happen again.

I could be equally as nasty to you in return - but what the hell - I've had a glass of wine and am feeling too mellow to bother. I'll content myself with pointing out that if you take your head from up your @rse long enough to read my posts properly you'll notice that I was not claiming that the expense of dog showing reflected on the price of a pup. The OP stated this - I was merely letting him know the true cost of dog showing so that he could figure it into his equations.


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Not quite,one can sell aunt dolly's old china no problem.
> 
> Turn over the amounts talked about in the OP and yes it has to become business.


Anything that belongs to you as in property should be declared I believe be it yours via Aunt Dolly


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I am finding this a very interesting thread, Please keep it nice and sensible...Thank you


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Read back ... You most certainly did tell me not to bleet


Sorry I meant never said you had bred "your" dog.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Good for you and your rep is great from what I read but is there not a thread on here where some say "hobby breeder = baaaaad"?


Depends on you take on "hobby breeder"- to me anyone not doing it as a profession is a hobby breeder.... But then "hobby breeder" can be broken down further into "responsible" and "byb".


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Sorry I meant never said you had bred "your" dog.


Ok - You said I was bleeting about the costs ect.. with regards to a litter, to have a litter I would have had to bred my dog..But what ever!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

gladass said:


> Anything that belongs to you as in property should be declared I believe be it yours via Aunt Dolly


No selling your personal stuff that you no longer need is fine.

That said its all about turnover.

You cannot sell more than (I think) 4 cars on ebay before you become a "trader"


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

swarthy said:


> WHO exactly is 'passing the cost on?' - .


It was listed down as an expense that Shetlandlover pointed out.

I was merely asking a question. i'm not a breeder, no intention of ever breeding, was just curious that's all how it can be listed as a cost of raising pups??


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> Depends on you take on "hobby breeder"- to me anyone not doing it as a profession is a hobby breeder.... But then "hobby breeder" can be broken down further into "responsible" and "byb".


Well ok but my point is if you are turning over large amounts of cash (regardless of profit made) it should be declared.

In my line of business no one will deal with you unless you are VAT registered. Its their way of filtering out the cowboys and means you ARE registered with HMRC. They dont care how much you earn.

Like I said being a business does not mean you have to make a profit, but it means you can claim all your expenses back.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> It was listed down as an expense that Shetlandlover pointed out.
> 
> I was merely asking a question. i'm not a breeder, no intention of ever breeding, was just curious that's all how it can be listed as a cost of raising pups??


What was?

I didnt have showing down as an expense.:blink:


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I agree but its also promoting your breed/lines & dogs..


yeah but to me its like charging the cost of advertising them onto the price of a pup as well?


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Well ok but my point is if you are turning over large amounts of cash (regardless of profit made) it should be declared.
> 
> In my line of business no one will deal with you unless you are VAT registered. Its their way of filtering out the cowboys and means you ARE registered with HMRC. They dont care how much you earn.
> 
> *Like I said being a business does not mean you have to make a profit, but it means you can claim all your expenses back*.


Amen to that in the pub trade........... such as it is these days !


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I wasnt accusing you of talking poo...I just dont know of any breeders who claim their costs back.


Well to be frank, more fool them then.

Would reduce your over heads by a fair whack, surely?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> yeah but to me its like charging the cost of advertising them onto the price of a pup as well?


I havent said that show costs should be a factor when selling puppies. I just stated others reasons that people show, other than it mainly being a hobby.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> What was?
> 
> I didnt have showing down as an expense.:blink:


Not talking about showing, talking about heating. You listed it as a cost when adding up how much breeding will cost you, when i pointed out that i didn't understand how that could be passed on as wouldn't the heating be on, you said no as you keep it off at night. 

as for shows, I don't see why those costs should be reflected in the price of a pup or counted as a cost of raising a litter?

Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, as I've not bought a pedigree yet and probably won't for a very long time to be honest, I'm a rescue convert at the moment but the health of my pup and his direct parents would mean much more to me than prizes one at shows.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I havent said that show costs should be a factor when selling puppies. I just stated others reasons that people show, other than it mainly being a hobby.


I know but that's not my problem. if they show so they can advertise or show off their dog, why should that then be passed down through pups, as some people are implying.

At what point do you draw the line? does it get as far as amortising the cost of your actual dog across the pups?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> Amen to that in the pub trade........... such as it is these days !


Breeding dogs should be no different.

Does not mean you dont care or are ethical.

Just means you cant put the bangers straight in the sky rocket :wink:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> I'm a rescue convert at the moment but the health of my pup and his direct parents would mean much more to me than prizes one at shows.


Health and temperament is and always would be of great importance, but I'd realistically only buy from people who show and breed to standard


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> Not talking about showing, talking about heating. You listed it as a cost when adding up how much breeding will cost you, when i pointed out that i didn't understand how that could be passed on as wouldn't the heating be on, you said no as you keep it off at night.
> 
> as for shows, I don't see why those costs should be reflected in the price of a pup or counted as a cost of raising a litter?
> 
> Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, as I've not bought a pedigree yet and probably won't for a very long time to be honest, I'm a rescue convert at the moment but the health of my pup and his direct parents would mean much more to me than prizes one at shows.


Puppy prices do not reflect the cost of showing. The price of the pup will be as stands regardless of showing or not. I know no breeders who put up the price because the parents are shown.

As for heating, To say breeders make a profit but then to say something doesnt count when it does because if the pups were not there the (for example) heating would not be on all day every day for months at a time.

That's like saying that the food the pups eat shouldnt count, when it should because less would be eaten if there were no pups.

If that makes sense.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

This is an old thread of mine
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/122071-tax-implictions-breeding.html


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> Not talking about showing, talking about heating. You listed it as a cost when adding up how much breeding will cost you, when i pointed out that i didn't understand how that could be passed on as wouldn't the heating be on, you said no as you keep it off at night.


*coughs*

He/she does not breed though :wink:


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> I know but that's not my problem. if they show so they can advertise or show off their dog, why should that then be passed down through pups, as some people are implying.
> 
> At what point do you draw the line? does it get as far as* amortising* the cost of your actual dog across the pups?


Good word....my vote for 'best use of a word on a forum' for today definite x


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> *coughs*
> 
> He/she does not breed though :wink:


I dont. And I am a she.

I have my first litter later this year hopefully.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Good word....my vote for 'best use of a word on a forum' for today definite x


there are several other words I would have liked to use, all of which you've had over PM!

Its a great word aint it? I used it today in a meeting! Perhaps i should start a word of the day thread...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont. And I am a she.
> 
> I have my first litter later this year hopefully.


We knew that 

When do you hope to have your litter?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

and i expect pictures Shetlandlover.........


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Breeding dogs should be no different.
> 
> Does not mean you dont care or are ethical.
> 
> *Just means you cant put the bangers straight in the sky rocket* :wink:


Do you have to say that when I have been on the vino.......not sure I can remember the last time the banger was in the sky rocket :blink:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> and i expect pictures Shetlandlover.........


We all do, I don't think I've ever seen pics of tiny Sheltie pups :001_wub:


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> This is an old thread of mine
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/122071-tax-implictions-breeding.html


No mention of attending dancing on ice


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> *there are several other words I would have liked to use, all of which you've had over PM!*
> 
> Its a great word aint it? I used it today in a meeting! Perhaps i should start a word of the day thread...


Yes but this is a public forum and the words you use may just cause a riot....I read the thread about chidren swearing


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I know but that's not my problem. if they show so they can advertise or show off their dog, why should that then be passed down through pups, as some people are implying.
> 
> At what point do you draw the line? does it get as far as amortising the cost of your actual dog across the pups?


If someone spends time and money travelling the contry to get different judges opinions on dogs through showing then that has to be praised imo. They are making sure their dogs are good examples of the breed and getting more than a few peoples opinions. When someone is constantly seen to produce top quality puppies their lines/dogs will become more sought after and I spose that comes at a price.. You will notice top kennels have slightly higher prices than the other showing kennels. I personally have no problem with that, they have worked damn hard, with alot of time and money going into getting them selves where they are and having a pup from their should be a privilege not a right.

Everyone will have different opinions on breeding, and selling of puppies!


----------



## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, as I've not bought a pedigree yet and probably won't for a very long time to be honest, I'm a rescue convert at the moment but the health of my pup and his direct parents would mean much more to me than prizes one at shows.



I'm obviously not making myself clear, the health of a pup and its ancestors is more important than anything else and I would never buy a pup that hadnt had ALL relevant health tests for its breed.
As was so perfectly pointed out by spellweaver if you took into account the cost of showing it would be astronomical.
Look at Jet the dog that won BIS at crufts he had 60CC's that means 60 champ shows where he won the ultimate prize and gawd know how many others that he won less or nothing at all. That is thousands in show entries alone.
I am not a breeder but I am a potential buyer and I am happy to pay more for a pup from show home than pup not (assuming all other factors were the same)
This is just my opinion
None of the people who breed on here have said that they take showing into account in the price of their pups. Because quite frankly if they did it would price their puppies well out of the market.
Like I said in my previous post I spent at least £400 on my last two champ shows and I dont even have a 1st yet!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've been reading this, nearly posted earlier but it's one of those *discussions* that comes around with alarming regularity.

Breeding may mean that at some point, even an ethical breeder has several hundred, or a few thousand pounds in their pocket. Does that make them money grabbing? Are they then in it for the money? 

All of the evidence about how much is spent on dogs, campaigning them, health testing, breeding responsibly, is picked to pieces time and time again, and ethical responsible breeders are basically stuck in the same boat as byb's and puppy farmers and told they can't consider costs that are related to their dogs, because surely showing is just a hobby, and you'd have the heating on perhaps, maybe, and surely you can't do that much more washing. 

If you think about it for one minute, anyone in it to make money can, by cutting corners, anyone who wants to do it right, and ethically really won't make money, and that's the long and short of it.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> We knew that
> 
> When do you hope to have your litter?


Hope if Alaska's seasons are as usual to go to stud around October. So Christmas pups.



canuckjill said:


> and i expect pictures Shetlandlover.........


Of course Gill.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont. And I am a she.
> 
> I have my first litter later this year hopefully.


So Devil Dogs picking me up on my post to you advising on the accounting side of things saying you dont breed was a bit iffy.

Yes I know you dont breed yet and I know you are about to, I was just being advanced in my thought :lol:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Health and temperament is and always would be of great importance, but I'd realistically only buy from people who show and breed to standard


I'm not sure that in all breeds that those would actually equate......putting on my tin hat in readiness


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Hope if Alaska's seasons are as usual to go to stud around October. So Christmas pups.


You'll have to get your Christmas pressies organised early this year then


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Yes but this is a public forum and the words you use may just cause a riot....I read the thread about chidren swearing


I aint a child though, I'm 27!! :cryin:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> So Devil Dogs picking me up on my post to you advising on the accounting side of things saying you dont breed was a bit iffy.
> 
> Yes I know you dont breed yet and I know you are about to, I was just being advanced in my thought :lol:


Typical bloke....being in advance :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Someone please take this bottle off me


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> I'm not sure that in all breeds that those would actually equate......putting on my tin hat in readiness


Which is why it is wise to research your breeder of course


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> So Devil Dogs picking me up on my post to you advising on the accounting side of things saying you dont breed was a bit iffy.
> 
> Yes I know you dont breed yet and I know you are about to, I was just being advanced in my thought :lol:


Its DevilDogz  What I said wasnt iffy. Read back I said 'she hasnt had a litter so hasnt nothing to declare'


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> I'm obviously not making myself clear, the health of a pup and its ancestors is more important than anything else and I would never buy a pup that hadnt had ALL relevant health tests for its breed.
> As was so perfectly pointed out by spellweaver if you took into account the cost of showing it would be astronomical.
> Look at Jet the dog that won BIS at crufts he had 60CC's that means 60 champ shows where he won the ultimate prize and gawd know how many others that he won less or nothing at all. That is thousands in show entries alone.
> I am not a breeder but I am a potential buyer and I am happy to pay more for a pup from show home than pup not (assuming all other factors were the same)
> ...


Sorry, but I'm reading it as a lot of people saying its the reason they don't make a lot of money, because they spend it on showing. that to me insinuates that breeders count it as a cost.

I just don't get it, perhaps it was the discovery that you don't have to actually health test to show that knocked my confidence. I certainly wouldn't look at a successful history of showing personally as a key issue when buying a pup. Mine would be health tests and the health of their direct descendants.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> You'll have to get your Christmas pressies organised early this year then


Haha My granddads going to be on call incase I need to rush to the vets. Poor fella's going to be weeks out of sleep.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> yeah but to me its like charging the cost of advertising them onto the price of a pup as well?


I think you're getting confused - the costs aren't added to the price of a pup, it may be used as an allowable expense for tax purposes for a breeder that is declaring their income from breeding.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Haha My granddads going to be on call incase I need to rush to the vets. Poor fella's going to be weeks out of sleep.


Bless him, it's good that you have him to help you though


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I just don't get it, perhaps it was the discovery that you don't have to actually health test to show that knocked my confidence.


Why would all show dogs need to be health tested? Many dogs in the ring will never be bred, and many health tests are only needed if litters are planned from the dogs like DNA testing to discover the dogs status. Not to forget alot of breeds require not health tests, where do you decided what breeds are tested and what for and what ones arent. What about the tests that cant be done to a certain age, meaning 6 month old pups lose out on well needed experience - does it also only stand for dogs being shown at champ level?. Not forgetting asking exhibitors to pay EVER more just to share a hobby with their dogs 
Maybe all dogs should be health tested? Them being worked, and competing in others sports? I mean alot of them are also bred and alot arent and are just pets enjoying working/sports. Where do you draw the line.. and why are show dogs always targeted. Its not just show dogs bred you know, and any dog untested has the ability to produce unhealthy pups even them that are soley pets!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Bless him, it's good that you have him to help you though


It is. I owe that man many things. Poor guys driving me to ring craft twice a month for the next 3 months as well as taking me to shows. At least he now knows my dogs by name. He used to just say "big one" "small one" "the one from kent" hahaha.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Why would all show dogs need to be health tested? Many dogs in the ring will never be bred, and many health tests are only needed if litters are planned from the dogs like DNA testing to discover the dogs status. Not to forget alot of breeds require not health tests, where do you decided what breeds are tested and what for and what ones arent. What about the tests that cant be done to a certain age, meaning 6 month old pups lose out on well needed experience. Not forgetting asking exhibitors to pay EVER more just to share a hobby with their dogs
> Maybe all dogs should be health tested? Them being worked, and competing in others sports? I mean alot of them are also bred and alot arent and are just pets enjoying working/sports. Where do you draw the line.. and why are show dogs always targeted. Its not just show dogs bred you know, and any dog untested has the ability to produce unhealthy pups even them that are soley pets!


I appreciate what you are saying and I had this debate on another thread, to me showing a dog and it winning for being a great example of the breed, but could possible have something majorly wrong with it going on inside, to me is wrong.

But each to their own I suppose.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I think you're getting confused - the costs aren't added to the price of a pup, it may be used as an allowable expense for tax purposes for a breeder that is declaring their income from breeding.


No, not getting confused, some people have used it as showing how much it costs over all to breed.

But as its an allowable expense, why therefore should it be used as a contributing factor to show how much breeding costs, if it can be claimed back?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> But each to their own I suppose.


Exactly :thumbup:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> It is. I owe that man many things. Poor guys driving me to ring craft twice a month for the next 3 months as well as taking me to shows. At least he now knows my dogs by name. He used to just say "big one" "small one" "the one from kent" hahaha.


LOL reminds me of my dad.....


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> why therefore should it be used as a contributing factor to show how much breeding costs, if it can be claimed back?


It can't be claimed back - claimed back from who? It can be offset against costs, it is still an expense that has to be paid (from a business perspective).

I'm not sure what the argument here is anyway - it's not a direct expense, but an indirect expense. However, most breeders I know don't include it in the costs when working out the cost of breeding (when one dares working out the costs!).


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Its DevilDogz  What I said wasnt iffy. Read back I said 'she hasnt had a litter so hasnt nothing to declare'


Dogs/dogz
Has bred/is about to..

Such unnecessary hair splitting


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I appreciate what you are saying and I had this debate on another thread, to me showing a dog and it winning for being a great example of the breed, but could possible have something majorly wrong with it going on inside, to me is wrong.
> 
> But each to their own I suppose.


But one would hope that the winning dog if it were to be bred from would have all relevant health tests done.

Again its a case of where do you draw the line, when you say something majorly wrong inside, do you mean a PRA carrier, PRA affected? Or a dog with hip dysplasia (prob wouldnt be winning due to movement). The sheer range of illnesses that a dog could have is huge as well as the amount of tests that we now have with ever more coming.
Either of those PRA statuses would be serious considerations when breeding but a carrier would never have the disease and an affected may never get it either so should that effect it getting prizes in the show ring?

Please note that I am not referring to the high profile breeds as that is a whole other topic/thread

Also I do want to add that ultimately I still agree with you, health is the MOST important thing when buying a puppy, I have always said that


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> It can't be claimed back - claimed back from who? It can be offset against costs, it is still an expense that has to be paid (from a business perspective).
> 
> I'm not sure what the argument here is anyway - it's not a direct expense, but an indirect expense. However, most breeders I know don't include it in the costs when working out the cost of breeding (when one dares working out the costs!).


I've read a fair few posts on that have used it as a reason they don't make any money for breeding. For me showing isn't something that should be counted as a cost for breeding, but must have read them all wrong.

Must be bed time.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> No mention of attending dancing on ice


Well there wouldn't be - Tanya knows what she's talking about and wouldn't have included a visit to a dog show as a non-exhibitor as tax deductable - unlike some know-it-alls :


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Dogs/dogz
> Has bred/is about to..
> 
> Such unnecessary hair splitting


Oh dear, you seem a bit grouchy recently, hope all is okay with you


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> But one would hope that the winning dog if it were to be bred from would have all relevant health tests done.
> 
> Again its a case of where do you draw the line, when you say something majorly wrong inside, do you mean a PRA carrier, PRA affected? Or a dog with hip dysplasia (prob wouldnt be winning due to movement). The sheer range of illnesses that a dog could have is huge as well as the amount of tests that we now have with ever more coming.
> Either of those PRA statuses would be serious considerations when breeding but a carrier would never have the disease and an affected may never get it either so should that effect it getting prizes in the show ring?
> ...


You'd hope so, but you'd still get some idiot giving it the big one about winning whatever its won so it doesn't need testing...

I dunno, it just doesn't sit right with me that a potentially ill dog can win something in a show? Maybe I'm looking at it in an overly simplistic way.

To me health would be the first thing I'd look at when getting a pup. the health of the pup, then of its parents then grandparents.

results they'd had in a show wouldn't really come into it for me. Its not something i set a massive amount of credit on.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Dogs/dogz
> Has bred/is about to..
> 
> Such unnecessary hair splitting


Someones getting touchy... and again still dont get the has bred/is about to bit.. As I only commented to tell you no litter had been born to declare anything.

Dogz will be fine.. DD if you get to confused with the s and z though.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> I'd be interested to hear peoples thought.
> 
> But why do you think its fair for breeders of certain breeds to be able to charge more for said breed?
> 
> ...


Health tests are expensive. The current price of a newfoundland from a first class pedigree with hip scores, elbow scores, heart scans is about £1300. I could get one for half that price without the tests, but how much is that going to cost in vet fees and heartache when something goes wrong. In fact, I emailed about a litter of cheap ones for someone a week ago, asked about hip scores, and never got a reply.

They do actually. If you are talking about a giant breed, that means more innoculation, more anaesthetic for getting the x-rays and hip scores done. I don't know how they do these things, but I doubt it is done whilst the dog is awake. Even with excellent scores all the way back through the lines, there is still a risk of the dog getting something that can't be tested for.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Health tests are expensive. The current price of a newfoundland from a first class pedigree with hip scores, elbow scores, heart scans is about £1300. I could get one for half that price without the tests, but how much is that going to cost in vet fees and heartache when something goes wrong. In fact, I emailed about a litter of cheap ones for someone a week ago, asked about hip scores, and never got a reply.
> 
> They do actually. If you are talking about a giant breed, that means more innoculation, more anaesthetic for getting the x-rays and hip scores done. I don't know how they do these things, but I doubt it is done whilst the dog is awake. Even with excellent scores all the way back through the lines, there is still a risk of the dog getting something that can't be tested for.


I think you can justify charging double for a newfy...as long as you provide it with a saddle...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> If someone spends time and money travelling the contry to get different judges opinions on dogs through showing then that has to be praised imo. They are making sure their dogs are good examples of the breed and getting more than a few peoples opinions. When someone is constantly seen to produce top quality puppies their lines/dogs will become more sought after and I spose that comes at a price.. You will notice top kennels have slightly higher prices than the other showing kennels. I personally have no problem with that, they have worked damn hard, with alot of time and money going into getting them selves where they are and having a pup from their should be a privilege not a right.
> 
> Everyone will have different opinions on breeding, and selling of puppies!


I agree - and if I wanted a pup from a top quality show dog, I would expect to pay more for it. As the topic of the night is breeding as a business, here is a business example: If I went to a puppy farmer I would expect to pay Netto prices and get Netto quality. If I went to a top show kennels, I would expect to pay M&S prices and get M&S quality.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree - and if I wanted a pup from a top quality show dog, I would expect to pay more for it. As the topic of the night is breeding as a business, here is a business example: If I went to a puppy farmer I would expect to pay Netto prices and get Netto quality. If I went to a top show kennels, I would expect to pay M&S prices and get M&S quality.


Its not just any small, naked dog.... Its an M&S small naked dog


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Well there wouldn't be - Tanya knows what she's talking about and wouldn't have included a visit to a dog show as a non-exhibitor as tax deductable - unlike some know-it-alls :


When will you stop challenging me and making yourself look stupid?

You bought up claiming for going to dancing on ice. Tanya posted a link to another site about the tax implications for breeding.

I happened to notice there was no mention of Dancing On Ice in there as a tax deductible expense unlike some no nothings who think the know it all.

Get a grip and get over the baby making machine comment :lol

READ THE LINK


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Its not just any small, naked dog.... Its an M&S small naked dog


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Just thought..... I shouldn't really be giving them ideas


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Just thought..... I shouldn't really be giving them ideas


To right you shouldnt they will come in bags saying oven ready next :blink:


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Its not just any small, naked dog.... Its an M&S small naked dog





Devil-Dogz said:


> To right you shouldnt they will come in bags saying oven ready next :blink:


Ha ha stop it you two your killing me.............. literally I cant stop coughing now!!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> To right you shouldnt they will come in bags saying oven ready next :blink:


Pffffff... lmao whilst wiping screen clear from coffee! :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

I think the worst sales ploy on an advert I have seen was on a litter of staff x.

£30 for one. Buy one get one free. 

I felt sick.

Seriously though, I would say Scorchers add was a bad sales ploy but it basicly said.

"Female GSD cross. Free. Must go before Sunday otherwise will put her down".

Needless to say I rung went to see her that night and took her the next day.:glare:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

babycham2002 said:


> Ha ha stop it you two your killing me.............. literally I cant stop coughing now!!





Tanya1989 said:


> Pffffff... lmao whilst wiping screen clear from coffee! :lol:


ahaha had to block the dogs ears as I said that.. Will have to fight them past the cooker to the garden now


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Its not just any small, naked dog.... Its an M&S small naked dog


:lol: :lol:


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Can just see Caroline Quentin sitting one on the chair next to her in the advert


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Think Shelties should be advertised as self built floor cleaners.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> When will you stop challenging me and making yourself look stupid?
> 
> You bought up claiming for going to dancing on ice. Tanya posted a link to another site about the tax implications for breeding.
> 
> ...


What on earth are you going on about? Now I know I'm on my second glass of wine, but your post does not make the least bit of sense to me.

Re the dancing on ice comment - as you are unable to take a joke let me explain - you posted to Shetlandlover that she could claim expenses for going to a dog show as a visitor and I MADE A JOKE that if you could claim show tickets for expenses then I would try claiming back the cost of my dancing on ice tickets. Now, everyone else on here seems to have got that other then you. Lighten up for God's sake :

Baby making machine comment - huh?    You've lost me completely


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Ohh come one SW you dont understand what hes waffling on about? now you are just making yourself look even more sillier (is that a word..do you spell it like that)  

Joking aside I was well confused pages back..Have another wine


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Ohh come one SW you dont understand what hes waffling on about? now you are just making yourself look even more sillier (is that a word..do you spell it like that)
> 
> Joking aside I was well confused pages back..Have another wine


DD you are not the only one who's confused. But on teh plus side....for all you that love a bit of comedy Theo (the hedgehog) has just done a dog sized pee on scott's chest!!!!!!!!! Classic!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Ohh come one SW you dont understand what hes waffling on about? now you are just making yourself look even more sillier (is that a word..do you spell it like that)
> 
> Joking aside I was well confused pages back..Have another wine


Thank you - think I will! 

Glad it's not just me he's confusing.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> For all you that love a bit of comedy Theo (the hedgehog) has just done a dog sized pee on scott's chest!!!!!!!!! Classic!


hahah... I love it.... In my head, that is soooo cute


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Just to add... I hope that was a sheltie sized wee, not a Leo sized wee


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Can just see Caroline Quentin sitting one on the chair next to her in the advert


And Twiggy with one in her handbag - dyed pink to match her shoes


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> hahah... I love it.... In my head, that is soooo cute


Scott's shirt was like a cup of water had been tipped down him. Hahahahaha. It was huge. No idea how a hedgehog can pee that much.

If it was a Leo sized wee I wouldnt be on here I would be at the hospital with a drowned OH. Hahahhaah


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> And Twiggy with one in her handbag - dyed pink to match her shoes


Or Myleene Klass with one stuffed between her boobs when modelling underwear 

ETA: I'm supposed to be a mod and keeping everything on track.... I think its fair to say this thread has slipped through my fingers


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Our dogs are bred from champions and are usually put to champion studs. 

Cockers go for £600
Springers go for £500
Labradors go for £500

Not ridiculous prices at all I don't think. The amount of time and effort that goes into a litter, emotional, physical and financial strain. Especially if you have shown/worked your dog to prove of its worth to be bred from. 

I'm tired and its late so I shall make a better post another time but think of it this way

If you were to buy a car (I'm not saying a live animal is like a car so don't start) You get what you pay for. £600 for a car you can expect a secondhand banger that needs a few repairs. £5000 upwards you can expect a good car that won't need any repairs till its quite old.

You do however get the unethical breeders who charge wayy too much for silly reasons such as £200 more forr a KC reg dog :blink: But then the public should have common sense to avoid such people


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

gladass said:


> Puppies are classed as property and any "income" should be declared BUT then again anything you sell be it via Ebay, Gumtree etc... should also be declared-------------Anyone do that!!!!!


A lot will depend on what you are selling and your income from this activity. If you are selling personal possessions you no longer want, it does not need to be declared. If you are conducting an actual business and there is an expectation that you will earn money from the activity of listing on eBay, then it does need to be declared :001_smile:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

PL are all your dogs health tested (just trying to see what kinda pups are being sold at them prices) - do pups go for higher/lower in each breed depending?


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> PL are all your dogs health tested (just trying to see what kinda pups are being sold at them prices) - do pups go for higher/lower in each breed depending?


Hips, eyes and elbows are tested.

We try to find a middle ground for each breed so that they aren't over or underpriced. Enough to deter bad owners but not ridiculous prices.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Ermm show for alot of breeders is a massive factor. Its a way of having many different experience breed specalists go over your dogs - giving their opinion proving them to be a good example of the breed if thats the case!
> 
> Of course ethical breeders want to breed for health and tempermant but conformation is also important.
> I also dont understand what you mean by breeding out the bad traits? Do you mean working on weak points in a dog, or do work on things not desired in a breed - Have you got an example?


What I meant was by breeding you get closer to what the breed is suppose to look like. Why is conformation so important? I watch some of the dog shows and I think the whole thing boils down to personal preference. I would think the best example of the importance of any breed is health. You can show any dog and maybe you are winning everything you enter but when it comes time to breed and health tests are done, you find heart problems in your dog. They could be ideal for the breed but with the problem should never be breed. Thats why to me showing should be not included in the cost of a new puppy. I have over the years when looking for dogs been told they came from champion blood lines, and the cost reflects that. Most people do not show and do not want to show either. If you make a profit from breeding, so what, nothing wrong with that. I run a small business and with write offs I make no money but some how live each year.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I think dogs are one of the purchases that you can definitely say 'you get what you pay for' does NOT count!! A breeder can take all the care in the world, do every test available, spend huge amounts of time, money and effort to raise a healthy litter and those pups can just as easily develop HD ED cancer cruciate trouble etc etc etc but being a good, moral, tethical breeder does not guarantee a healthy puppy.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Jo P said:


> I think dogs are one of the purchases that you can definitely say 'you get what you pay for' does NOT count!! A breeder can take all the care in the world, do every test available, spend huge amounts of time, money and effort to raise a healthy litter and those pups can just as easily develop HD ED cancer cruciate trouble etc etc etc but being a good, moral, tethical breeder does not guarantee a healthy puppy.


You are right, it doesn't - however - what it does do is significantly *reduce *the risk - OK - not as dramatic - but I liken it to jumping out of a plane - there will always be a risk - but you can signficantly lessen that risk by having some training and a back up parachute - given the choice - I know which I would go for - and buying a puppy is no different.

Rocco made an interesting statement (which has pretty much mirrored my own experience) - that people who have pups from good breeders who go on to develop HD - the impact on the dogs need for surgery and overall quality of life is often far less from good breeders; while it is only anecdotal - I firmly believe this is because good breeders give good advice on exercise and diet for the first 12 months - which can (not always - but frequently) ensure that the dogs misses the extreme exacerbation of dysplasia and can live a life free from surgical intervention.

The issue remains which so many people seem to miss unfortunately - if a dog is predisposed to poor hips (or elbows) - then caution in the first 12 months can make a massive difference - conversely - if a dog has no predisposition to HD - short of hitting it by a car, a severe fall or other extreme incident (none of which are genetic) - the dog will always have good hips - they don't deteriorate year on year as some seem to believe.

I've just had my nutcase of a 2.5 year old hip and elbow scored - she came back 3/4 elbows 0 - and her even more bonkers niece - she came back 5/4 - elbows 0 - the elder girl had an accident at 6 months which left her lame for a couple of weeks - and can easily scale 8/9 feet heights - yet her hips are darn near perfect.

My eldest but one girl - did everything right by her - hips shot - but the signs we saw of a problem in her leg weren't and never have been anything to do with her hips - and she noe lives an extremely active life.

Just like humans, however healthy they are - dogs can go on to develop arthritis in later life - but that's not the same as having a genetic prediposition to HD, ED or OCD.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Jo P
> I think dogs are one of the purchases that you can definitely say 'you get what you pay for' does NOT count!!


Absolutley, and it works both ways. A poor breed can and many do charge as much as a well bred litter. A case recently of a labrador litter, breeder asking for £600. I asked if the parents were hip, elbow and eye tested and the answer was no, they were healthy and had never had problems with their eyes. The price of a puppy gives you no indication as to how it has been bred and what sort of breeder it has come from.



> A breeder can take all the care in the world, do every test available, spend huge amounts of time, money and effort to raise a healthy litter and those pups can just as easily develop HD ED cancer cruciate trouble etc etc etc


No, but it significantly reduces the risk.



> but being a good, moral, tethical breeder does not guarantee a healthy puppy.


There is nothing guaranteed where mother nature is concerned (except DNA testing, but even then we need to be cautious looking forward as things can change).

However, if all you are looking for is a healthy puppy, then I guess ethics and morals won't come into it. Personally, and I would hope any animal lover would be the same, I want my puppy to come from someone that cares and knows what they are doing and would not support anything less.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

> Why is conformation so important?


I am a little worried that people are asking such questions...

Conformation is important for various reasons one being because it defines physical characteristics in anyone breed - These characterisitcs are important to a breed, even more so working breeds where their conformation will be just as important as their ability to work if their going to be successful in the job they were bred for.

You may say well alot of these dogs in the ring dont any more work and you will be correct (although alot still do) their purpose when bred years ago remains the same and its important that the breed does to. For example - you wouldnt want a husky built like a pointer - You need a working husky to be able to pull, run and have a thick coat to remain warm in artic weather - having great strenght, power and stamina.

As soon as conformation stops being a factor when breeding dogs, the problems will start - conformation for an ethical breeder will just as important as that of the dogs tempermant and health.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> However, if all you are looking for is a healthy puppy, then I guess ethics and morals won't come into it. Personally, and I would hope any animal lover would be the same, I want my puppy to come from someone that cares and knows what they are doing and would not support anything less.


Sorry, but don't agree with that at all. If you had no ethics or morals, why bother doing all the research to make sure your pup is healthy.

I've no intention of getting a pedigree, for years now until we can afford the time and room for my Saint, but when the time comes I'll be looking at breeders carefully, with some well placed advice from people I know and trust.

If the choice however comes down to a healthy pup, with all the necessary health tests been done at one price, then a healthy pup, with all the necessary health tests been done at a more expensive price because its parents had won whatever in the show ring, to me that doesn't hold up nor is it soemthing that personally I really bother about. I've no intention of showing my pup, if he/she's been health tested, along with parents and grandparents then that to me is what I'm looking at. I don't see why that means I'm not ethical or moral?



Spellweaver said:


> I would expect to pay Netto prices and get Netto quality. If I went to a top show kennels, I would expect to pay M&S prices and get M&S quality.


I paid a netto price for Roo, £50 and £25 to the local shelter. And I think he's a better than M&S quality dog! 

Totally at a tangent here, but did you know that one of the "budget" supermarkets, I can't remember which, their homebrand is made by the same company that do St Michaels for M&S?

(So i was told years ago, dunno if its still the same).


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I don't see why that means I'm not ethical or moral?


Because many people would feel you was supporting the breeding of dogs for no vaild purpose. If there was no aim to a litter, then puppies would just be born for the sake of it. Health testing is one thing but does *not* make a breeder ethical alone. Theres more to it than that and I would hope anyone selecting a breeder would look at the bigger picture.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Because many people would feel you was supporting the breeding of dogs for no vaild purpose. If there was no aim to a litter, then puppies would just be born for the sake of it. Health testing is one thing but does *not* make a breeder ethical alone. Theres more to it than that and I would hope anyone selecting a breeder would look at the bigger picture.


Again, your getting into the whole debate about dogs not being shown having no purpose, which i completely and utterly disagree with. I have no interest in the showing world, at all bar the fun ones.

Health testing would indicate to me that the breeder cares enough to do the right tests and breed from healthy animals. To me that does make them ethical, and clearly not in it to make money as has been stated on this thread, health tests cost a bomb.

I think its best I but out of this thread now, I'm never going to agree entirely with what people are saying. I'm in danger of saying something that's going to get me banned.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Because many people would feel you was supporting the breeding of dogs for no vaild purpose. If there was no aim to a litter, then puppies would just be born for the sake of it. Health testing is one thing but does *not* make a breeder ethical alone. Theres more to it than that and I would hope anyone selecting a breeder would look at the bigger picture.


Well said and I agree entirely


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Again, your getting into the whole debate about dogs not being shown having no purpose, which i completely and utterly disagree with. I have no interest in the showing world, at all bar the fun ones.
> 
> Health testing would indicate to me that the breeder cares enough to do the right tests and breed from healthy animals. To me that does make them ethical, and clearly not in it to make money as has been stated on this thread, health tests cost a bomb.
> 
> I think its best I but out of this thread now, I'm never going to agree entirely with what people are saying. I'm in danger of saying something that's going to get me banned.


Showing isnt the only purpose behind ethical litters & and in every litter bred for a purpose there will be pet quality dogs. They day I dont want a dog for a reason - IE showing and dont want to wait a while for a pet pup from a well planned litter.. I will have a rescue - I wouldnt support someone breeding for the sake of it, and health by its self is just not good enough, tempermant by its self is not good enough, nors looks..ect..ect..

Health testing will make them responsible... I wouldnt go as far to say their ethical without hearing the plans behind the litter and other factors.

It could also just be the case that the breeder brought in two dogs already clear and tested, maybe even through their parentage. That doesnt show they care, shows someone else tested and their using the health testing to make people believe their the bees knees and people sadly will.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> They day I dont want a dog for a reason - IE showing and dont want to wait a while for a pet pup from a well planned litter.. I will have a rescue.


I already have rescues and will continue to now for the rest of my life, I've completely and utterly converted on that score. However, I've always dreamed of having a Saint. I don't want to show it, I just want one because I love them and think they are amazing dogs. Even those that show will at some stage or other in their life decided what breed they wanted TO show. Just because I want a pet, and want to give a loving home to a pet doesn't make me any less entitled to choose a breed.

Who knows, when the time comes I'll first look at rescue lists for the breeds and try that way, but if there's none available within a reasonable time frame (prob give it a year waiting) then I'd look into pups.

My first and main priority WILL be a healthy puppy that comes from a good, family home, raised in door, with its mum. NOT its showing potential, or the parent's showing results.

I don't care if that makes me in some opinions unethical or in other's minds will drive me towards puppy farmers or so called BYBs. I'd like to think by doing my research into the right lines and asking the right questions by taking advice first, I'd be able to suss those out that were using non tested or unhealthy animals or those simply in it to churn out as many pups as possible for profit.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I have never said that people shouldnt have the right to choose a breed - thats just being silly now!
I also have rescues, my first dog was a rescue..Shes not shown. Infact one of my dogs are shown. Two are from show parents and I have not paid over the top. Anyways it may just be that when choosing a breeder you only find health tested pups from people who show, or have pups from show dogs. The avarge pet breeders dont..and thats a fact.. working in rescue we see it all


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> IThe avarge pet breeders dont..and thats a fact.. working in rescue we see it all


If that's the case then so be it, it just won't be the first thing I look for, frankly. It's really not something I set a lot of credence on.

And its MOST of the average pet breeders that don't health check. Mine did.

ALthough maybe that makes him above average...dunno.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

You dont hold alot of credence on showing - this is coming from someone that will go to any breeder as long as health tests are carried out! I give up, I really do. 

Wish people would see the bigger picture and see there are other things just as important while breeding, keeping a breed is no good if the breed has poor tempermant and conformation..Conformation and tempermant faults can lead to health issues..Thing is you cant test for those.
Godd luck anyway.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> And its MOST of the average pet breeders that don't health check. Mine did.
> 
> ALthough maybe that makes him above average...dunno.


As a pet breeder, if they do all the right things and work to improve their lines, then yes, surely they are 'above average'.

I have mixed views on responsible pet breeders - while I struggle to understand why they want to breed - I also recognise that in many breeds - there IS a need for them because there is a demand for well bred pups that cannot be met from show and working breeders alone.

If there weren't ethical pet breeders - it doesn't take much to guess who would plug the gap - and would get the business through the sheer frustration of puppy buyers - as contrary to popular belief - a lot of these people wouldn't pick rescue as an alternative.

I do know of some very good pet breeders whose whole life is wrapped up in their dogs (and many do dabble in field / agility / assistance therapy etc) - and produce good quality puppies from well bred bitches to quality stud dogs - and they often keep from their own breeding to further their own lines.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

I am not against pet breeders as I plan to breed from Alaska and she is not shown. However I have had her looked at by judges in the breed and my mentors who do not have anything to do with her line. They have helped me pick out faults and work on a list of stud dogs that would possibly help her faults. I do not see a problem with pet breeding as long as the dogs being used have been looked at by those in the know and the soon to be breeder knows what to work on to keep it as close to how the breed is suppose to look as they can.

No point in having a GSD (for example) that looks like a Border collie because it loses the beauty of the breed.

As long as the dogs are assessed, looked at and judged by the right people and are health tested then I dont see any problem. Pet dogs have been known to have champion pups and champion parents have been known to have pet pups.

In the words of the great Jan Moody.


> I was told in
> my earlier days that you will never get anywhere by using inferior stud dogs. That may be
> the case but I am great believer in that champions dont always produce champions.


I cant wait to show but its not the be all and end all. Or at least not in my breed, many show and do well however some of the best breeders in the breed use "pet" bitch's and often produce fantastic show dogs.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

There is a slight different (well to me anyways) from breeding off a pet bitch, and being a pet breeder. (depending on what the purpose is for the litter from the pet bitch)!

A pet breeder - breeders to supply a pet market - many think thats ok.

Someone breeding from a pet bitch may be doing so with the aim of producing a good show dog, hearings dog ect!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You dont hold alot of credence on showing - this is coming from someone that will go to any breeder as long as health tests are carried out! I give up, I really do.
> 
> Wish people would see the bigger picture and see there are other things just as important while breeding, keeping a breed is no good if the breed has poor tempermant and conformation..Conformation and tempermant faults can lead to health issues..Thing is you cant test for those.
> Godd luck anyway.


Perhaps I'd hold more credence on showing if the fundamental error that a dog which is perfectly healthy and has a shorter ear than breed standard can be placed behind a dog that has a heart problem, but its ears are the right shape were stopped.

And please show me, where exactly did I say I would go to *ANY* breeder, providing health tests were carried out?  I havn't for one second said that. There are a good few other things I'd be asking based upon what advice I get nearer the time after a lot more research and advice from people with more experience in the breed.

Yes, first question would be to ask about the health tests as immediately I'd be striking off those that havn't. From the ones that are left I'd be looking into the parents, I'd want to meet them, know their history. Know their parents history. I'd want a few meets with the breeders to as I'm not going to buy a pup like this from someone that does't sit right with me either, and that can't answer my questions accurately. I'm also not going to buy from anyone who's dogs look unhealthy or just wrong to me or have been born into shoddy conditions.

Now if that takes me to someone with dogs that have been shown then so be it, as may well possibly be the case BUT as I said that is not my main concern, first and formost concern WOULD be the pups health, not if it was show standard, because to me that pup has been born and is as deserving of a home as any other dog.

If it has a wonky ear, bent tail, slightly shorter legs than normal so fricking what?! I won't be breeding from my dog, I have no intentions of ever breeding at all, or showing. So I'd rather take a dog with the above so called "issues" than one with health problems but the right conformation.

So please, save it. I don't need your "luck" thanks, so feel free to give up. I actually don't care.



swarthy said:


> I do know of some very good pet breeders whose whole life is wrapped up in their dogs (and many do dabble in field / agility / assistance therapy etc) - and produce good quality puppies from well bred bitches to quality stud dogs - and they often keep from their own breeding to further their own lines.


Roo's breeder kept 1 pups, one from each litter his Westie had. Sadly the first one was run over but the second one was from Roo's litter. He's now had his westie spaed.

Some people do just want a pet, myself included. Personally, I don't see the problem with this but can understand what you are saying and why so many people do. Althogh perhaps I was naive at first, I was wise enough to ask about the parents, request to see the pups, where they were kept etc enough for me to make a decent decision that the guy wasn't a puppy farmer and cared about his dogs.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> A pet breeder - breeders to supply a pet market - many think thats ok.
> 
> Someone breeding from a pet bitch may be doing so with the aim of producing a good show dog, hearings dog ect!


That is certainly the way I understand it 

Personally I'd not buy from someone just breeding dogs to sell., I'd hope they would have a bit more about them than that 

It obviously doesn't bother many people though ...


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> There is a slight different (well to me anyways) from breeding off a pet bitch, and being a pet breeder. (depending on what the purpose is for the litter from the pet bitch)!
> 
> A pet breeder - breeders to supply a pet market - many think thats ok.
> 
> Someone breeding from a pet bitch may be doing so with the aim of producing a good show dog, hearings dog ect!


Then I am breeding off a pet bitch. My goal is to have healthy pups (first) then hopefully there maybe a show pup in there. You never know.

However I plan to keep 1 or 2 pups and if she has more than 2 the other two are going to people within the breed. So certainly not selling on a pet market from this litter. I do have people waiting for a pup from me, But to be honest I would rather keep my whole litter than sell it to someone I was not 100% sure about. If that makes sense.

Many pet breeders dont care who gets the pups I have noticed.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Perhaps I'd hold more credence on showing if the fundamental error that a dog which is perfectly healthy and has a shorter ear than breed standard can be placed behind a dog that has a heart problem, but its ears are the right shape were stopped.
> 
> And please show me, where exactly did I say I would go to *ANY* breeder, providing health tests were carried out?  I havn't for one second said that. There are a good few other things I'd be asking based upon what advice I get nearer the time after a lot more research and advice from people with more experience in the breed.
> 
> ...


You are rude....Good job you dont want a pup from showing parents, you be hard pushed to get someone to sell you one! I am sick of reading all you know it alls going on about showing dogs and breeders, you clearly know nothing about breeding or showing and are so fixed on health you care about nothing else. Health is ONE factor there are more.. Not that you care you have made that clear..


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Health is ONE factor there are more.. Not that you care you have made that clear..


I agree with this. A dog has to look like the breed its suppose to be (imo) and it has to be in good enough health to do what it was originally bred for. I have seen many many many healthy show dogs. And many people at shows with their dogs have dogs that have been health tested. (obviously those under 12 months wont be hip/elbow scored).


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You are rude....Good job you dont want a pup from showing parents, you be hard pushed to get someone to sell you one! I am sick of reading all you know it alls going on about showing dogs and breeders, you clearly know nothing about breeding or showing and are so fixed on health you care about nothing else. Health is ONE factor there are more.. Not that you care you have made that clear..


I also find you very rude to be quite honest with you, saying that I'd go to "any breeder that health tests" I'll stick to my "pets" 

Again, I ask you to point out WHERE I have said that? I've pointed out in the post that there would be a number of things I'd look for upon the advice of people that know the breed but showing is not my main concern.

You are right though, I don't know anything about breeding, nope. I also know nothing about showing hence I'll never, ever bother with either. Curiousity sparked though on a few threads, I've asked several questions about it though about how come so called unhealthy dogs with heart problems CAN be viewed as better dogs in the show ring than one with bigger ears than normal and no one can answer?. That to me is completely baffling and irrational? Is it merely as showing is based on aesthetics?

Yes health is just one factor, but to me it IS the most important.



shetlandlover said:


> I agree with this. A dog has to look like the breed its suppose to be (imo) and it has to be in good enough health to do what it was originally bred for. I have seen many many many healthy show dogs. And many people at shows with their dogs have dogs that have been health tested. (obviously those under 12 months wont be hip/elbow scored).


Course it does, what's the point of getting a certain breed if it doesn't look like it? I'm also sure that there are FAR more healthy show dogs than not, but like I've said and stated above, show quality would not be my main concern, I don't want to show a pup.

If the choice was down to a dog with slightly bigger ears, tail or legs OR one which fit the breed perfectly but had a heart condition, I know which one I'm going to go for! However, if it comes down to two perfecly healthy puppy, but one with perfect everything, or one with a slightly wonky ear...then again, I know which one I'd go for.

I don't see why saying that health is the most important thing to me makes me a bad person.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I havent been rude, I wished you the best of luck you through that back in my face but there you go....
You stated any breeder that health tests would be ethical as showed they cared - so now are you saying that there not all ethical and you wouldnt go to some of them? If you dont want people to look into your posts more, you may need to be a little more clearer, yes you did state what else you would look for AFTER I had said it 

I dont know what your doing on about with regards to dogs being placed un health up agaisnt dogs with short ears, maybe you want to be clearer on that. I am not sure what shows you have been watching but certainly not ones I attened mind you I also never seen a judge measure ears, or seen a standard with lenghts the ears should be!


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

How did we get to this bit when the original question was

*Are all breeders wanting to make money?*

I think its safe to say that the good ones are not.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I havent been rude, I wished you the best of luck :


You haven't been rude at all, take no notice 

You've actually made some very good points on this thread, as have others :thumbup1:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

It always happens on breeding threads, I spose its because there is so much covered and related to breeding that the question could have one hundred answers depending on the situation, not anyone situation will be the same. Its not always black and white..


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> You haven't been rude at all, take no notice
> 
> You've actually made some very good points on this thread, as have others :thumbup1:


Thank You - I hope I havent been rude, and I was certainly never personal. I do get carried away - but I also sleep well at night knowing I have never stood by something I disagree with, and stuck up for all I believed in.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> It always happens on breeding threads, I spose its because there is so much covered and related to breeding that the question could have one hundred answers depending on the situation, not anyone situation will be the same. Its not always black and white..


Very true.

Maybe they should make this thread a sticky, because these type of threads are frequent.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Thank You - I hope I havent been rude, and I was certainly never personal. I do get carried away - but I also sleep well at night knowing I have never stood by something I disagree with, and stuck up for all I believed in.


you not been rude you are passionate about dogs, i keep out of these threads ( but enjoy reading them) , cos i WOULD BE RUDE LOL ,so let you carry on cos you do it so well hun xx


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I havent been rude, I wished you the best of luck you through that back in my face but there you go.





Devil-Dogz said:


> You stated any breeder that health tests would be ethical as showed they cared - so now are you saying that there not all ethical and you wouldnt go to some of them? If you dont want people to look into your posts more, you may need to be a little more clearer, yes you did state what else you would look for AFTER I had said it


<O</O
<O</O

I took the tone of your post as rude, "I give up, coming from someone that will got to ANY breeder that health tests." And I actually said this before you stated the above. <O</O
<O</O




Horse and Hound said:


> I'd like to think by doing my research into the right lines and asking the right questions by taking advice first, I'd be able to suss those out that were using non tested or unhealthy animals or those simply in it to churn out as many pups as possible for profit.


<O</O
<O</O
If that's not clear or doesn't show the point that I'd think of other things then I am sorry. But I have never said I would go to any old breeder that health checks, just that it would be my number one priority. I wouldn't look for a breeder that showed, THEN ask about health tests I'd ask about health tests first. And I object to the insinuation you made regarding that.<O</O

As for the comment about breeders health checking, yes, I still think that it shows they care more about their dogs or what they are doing than people that don't and that to me displays a certain level of ethics. However, I also accept that there are other things/more to it than that, hence the need to ask other questions, meet the people etc etc. It might be like you say, that you come across someone who is breeding under the impression that their dogs are health tested but not done it themselves. Doesn't make them unethical, just daft not to check themselves. <O</O
<O</O




Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont know what your doing on about with regards to dogs being placed un health up agaisnt dogs with short ears, maybe you want to be clearer on that. I am not sure what shows you have been watching but certainly not ones I attened mind you I also never seen a judge measure ears, or seen a standard with lenghts the ears should be! <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 15.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.petforums.co.uk/images/smilies/confused.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\KATHRY~2.BLE\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>


<O</O
<O</O
I was using an exaggerated metaphore. Is it not possible that a dog with a health issue would be placed above a dog that's perfectly healthy but doesn't conform 100% because it has too big ears, too big a tail, as showing doesn't mean you have to health check your dogs?<O</O
<O</O

There was an example on a thread months ago and it really stuck with me…but I can't for the life of me remember what thread it was on. <O</O


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> and I was certainly never personal.


Again, I would dispute that, from the tone of you post where you said "this coming from someont that would go to any breeder that health checks.

I actually find what you said rather offensive, hence my reaction. Perhaps like you I got carried away but you really did offend me, whether it was meant or not.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

well I am glad you dont feel health is the *only* thing thats important, and like I said I wish you the best of luck.



Horse and Hound said:


> I was using an exaggerated metaphore. Is it not possible that a dog with a health issue would be placed above a dog thats perfectly healthy but doesnt conform 100% because it has too big ears, too big a tail, as showing doesnt mean you have to health check your dogs?There was an example on a thread months ago and it really stuck with mebut I cant for the life of me remember what thread it was on.


It could be possible that a dog that has an health issue is placed yes. But that it also depends what you see as a serve health issues, one of ours is a carrier of a disease and has been placed highly at shows a number of times, qualifing for crufts. This doesnt affect her health, and to someone not wanting to breed it will never be a problem. But to someone wishing to breed, it will be a huge consideration when planning a litter and choosing a stud.

Any dog suffering from something more majour will not do well in the ring, you cant hide health issues and you certainly would be placed with a dog showing signs of HD or other such things. Anyone planning on breeding on from dogs they show, would more than likely not show a dog suffering something majour as it would be a waste of money - so it would remain a pet or be rehomed, neautered as a pet. Now I can say thats always the case but that would be the case from an ethical breeder, and we all know there is ethical and unethical in all walks of lives. Showing its self isnt ethical, but a handful of people involved may well be.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dexter said:


> you not been rude you are passionate about dogs, i keep out of these threads ( but enjoy reading them) , cos i WOULD BE RUDE LOL ,so let you carry on cos you do it so well hun xx


Thanks, you should post more in these subjects you have alot to offer!


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Breeding topics will always be an emotive subject and anyone having opposing views will bound to get heated now and then :001_smile:

A person buying a pet will probably have a different set of requirement than one looking for a working dog or show dog although some of the criteria will be the same.

Don't feel people need to be admonished because their only reason for buying a dog is for a pet.

Devil-dogz you will never agree that a breeder should supply the pet market so any communication with a pet buyer is probably bound to end up in discord- however I don't feel either of you have been rude just voicing your opinions strongly


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I shall then apologise for offending, with the tone of my posts - but I wont apologise for my opinion, just they way it come across.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

From my experience you certainly don't (and shouldn't expect) to make lots of money from breeding a litter.
I have only bred Dalmatians so thought it would be interesting to share our costs for our last litter with you guys. Dalmatian puppies sell for around £600 (less for patched or uni-laterally hearing puppies) with good temperaments, sound conformation and pedigree. They tend to have larger litters we had had 11 in our first and 12 in our second litter. The breakdown of costs for our litter of 12 is as follows

(All are approx)
*Stud fee * £650
*Cost for Whelping box/equipment*. £150 
*Food for bitch* RC 1 bag £46
*Worming prior to mating* Panacure £20
*Food for Nursing bitch and feeding puppies* RC x3 puppy food/Waitrose minced lamb/Waitrose Goats milk (we live across the road from Waitrose. I know its cheaper at ASDA) in excess of £300
*Hearing testing* £35 each £35x12 £420
*KC registration* £15 each £15x12 £180
*Microchipping* £11 each £11x12 £132
*Initial injection* at 8 wks and Vet check £38 each £38x12 £456
*Stationary-Puppy pack etc.* £8 each £8x12 £96
*Photo Albums/Photos* £5 each 5x12 £60
*Books How to raise purfect puppy for all* £11 £11x12 £132
*Books All bitches* Book of the Bitch £9 £9x9 £81
*Cleaning stuff/Misc.* Bleach, Floor cleaner, disinfectant, kitchen roll bin liners Incontinence pads/2 New mops!! At least £150
*Advertising* £100 Club website and magazine

We also buy each puppy an engraved dog tag which I know we don't need to but we cant resist. Grand total for our last litter was almost £3000 beore you receive any money. Also not included were two vet bills for Oxytocin at birth and one puppy (runt) contacted a skin infection you should always have a contingency for this event. We had two patched puppies which I sold for £500 each and all 12 were fully hearing.

There is also 8 weeks of sleepless nights, weeks of work writing puppy packs and sending e-mails and hours chatting on the phone. Weekends spent making cakes and tea and introducing new owners. Add to this sleepless nights with crying puppies, feeding hungry puppies every 2-3 hours. There is constant mopping of urine and faeces after the first few weeks. I can certainly think of easier ways of earning £3000!! I got through two mops and ruined our solid oak floor but those are just things. The most improtant thing is that our puppies had the best start and that we get the best homes for them.

With both litters we have spent many more pounds on Dalmatian themed birthday and Christmas cards and hours chatting, e-mailing and advising our puppy owners something that we really enjoy...in fact we make them all stay in touch we don't give them a choice!!

£3000 before you start so its not such a great money making scheme!! I used to go to work for a rest.:crazy:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Thanks, you should post more in these subjects you have alot to offer!


nope, you doing a grand job. lol x got a litter planned lol


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I shall then apologise for offending, with the tone of my posts - but I wont apologise for my opinion, just they way it come across.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion bit please don't say I have said something that I havnt, thats what hacked me off


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dexter said:


> nope, you doing a grand job. lol x got a litter planned lol


LOL Thanks 
Ohh have you - Good luck!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Everyone is entitled to an opinion bit please don't say I have said something that I havnt, thats what hacked me off


I actually didnt say you had said it, I said coming from someone that will go to any breeder that tests - that is the impression you gave, and I am not the only one that thought it. now I apologised which is more than what you done, but you still cant leave it. So I wont reply to you on the thread any longer.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I actually didnt say you had said it, I said coming from someone that will go to any breeder that tests - that is the impression you gave, and I am not the only one that thought it. now I apologised which is more than what you done, but you still cant leave it. So I wont reply to you on the thread any longer.


I have! I said sorry for reacting how I did on the thread before and believe it or not the post above wasn't meant nastily, as no one should apologise for opinions that's the beauty of them, they are opinions!

I actually have a serious question. I know your mum breeds cc's so what it how did you choose the breeder for your bc? Very different dog!


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Just to show that health isn't the only important thing...

There's a trend among some of the shady Dobermann breeders. Some people may have heard of "Warlock" dobermanns, this is a complete myth, but when people use this term it is indicative of a larger sized dog. Borong the Warlock was a famous stud/champ in the 1950's, it used to be that a warlock meant you had his lines in your pedigree, but that changed and was turned into a label similar to the "teacup" in toy breeds. The Dobermann is a medium sized breed, the FCI states a weight limit, but I believe this is the only standard to do so that I am aware of. I know of people breeding Dobes that are more along the standard of the Great Dane.

What does this do to the dog's ability to perform the work it was bred to do? They lose manoeuvrability, speed, and stamina with all of the extra size and the weight that inevitably comes with it. Conformation is important because dogs were all built for a purpose, a specific job in mind, everything from companions to protection work. If a dog does not fit within the breed standard, then how is it supposed to do the job it was bred for?

Edit to add: Part of the breed standards also involves a specific temperament, there are specific temperament tests for Dobermanns in the USA/Canada (WAE/WAC/TT).


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I actually have a serious question. I know your mum breeds cc's so what it how did you choose the breeder for your bc? Very different dog!


The breeder also has CCs, and is friends with a friend who use to breed BCs and still shows CCs - So I already knew of her. I grew up with collies.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The breeder also has CCs, and is friends with a friend who use to breed BCs and still shows CCs - So I already knew of her. I grew up with collies.


Ah right so guess no point asking what you looked at when choosing then as you already knew of them.

My friend has Borders. Has done all her life, she's quite good and up on breeders, prob knows yours


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

She might - his dad is shown and done well - mum is working lines - not well known, I dont think.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DD - While I do share some of your views on pet breeders - and I appreciate what people say about health tests alone not being (and they would be right).

However - I think we also have to remember (and I certainly can't speak for CC but can for Labs and other popular breeds) - there are simply not enough show and working breeders to meet demand for these pups.

That gap HAS to be met from somewhere (and contrary to what some believe - for many this will never be rescue) - if there are responsible pet breeders that do all the relevant health tests, own a dog that looks like its breed and think about how to improve their lines when chosing a stud - this surely has to be a better choice than the gap being met by BYB and Puppy farmers? 

To make it clear why I struggle with the idea of pet breeders - is because I don't understand what the overall aim and final goal is - but I will re-iterate my earlier comment that I do know some excellent pet breeders of Labs - and have a lot of respect for some of them. 

I didn't start with the best Labrador bitch for a number of reasons - but - I've worked very hard to try and improve with each generation - and from both a show and temperament perspective - I believe I have achieved that - but also know I have a few more generations before I have in front of me what I ultimately want to take into the showring.

Conversely, I understand why top breeders may produce a litter and then opt, for whatever reason, not to keep a pup - it's opportunities like this that enable the newer people like me to be able to improve on the dogs we show, and possibly, at some point, incorporate the breeding into our own lines - if this didn't happen - the top would stay at the top, and there would be few if any up and coming exhibitors and breeders.

I would only breed when I want a pup - hopefully for showing and to form the base for my next generation - but I recognise there may, in the future, come a point when I don't feel I have improved with a litter - it happens - we are dealing with science and nature - and it often (unfortunately) doesn't always give us what we want.

===============================

From the 'only want a pet' perspective - in many show litters - there may only be one or two with the potential to go into the showring - so the remainder would go to pet homes anyway.

IMHO - for 'just a pet' - ensuring that the breeder does the full complement of health tests, particularly where joint related - is more important - because invariably pet only pups are often subjected to more rough and tumble and less disciplined training than pet/show and pet/working homes. 

This is where so many people get caught out - thinking that show / good breeders will be out of their price range - and end up going for 'bargain basement' pups that end up costing them a lot more in the long run both financially and emotionally (and yes, I acknowledge not always - and have been on the wrong end of this myself) - but I want to ensure that any pups I buy (or breed) have the best possible chance of a long and healthy life. 

===================

As a final point, the number of people I know who 'just want a pet' and then get bitten by the show and / or working bug seem to increase year on year - with some of them doing very well in the ring with their 'pets' - and at least in one instance actually becoming a SH CH :


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

> I didn't start with the best Labrador bitch for a number of reasons


Many of the best breeders foundation bitch is far from perfect. That's part of the beauty of it, you can see as you breed on through the line faults/traits disappearing.



> I would only breed when I want a pup - hopefully for showing and to form the base for my next generation


Exactly, all we can hope for is health and potential to show. But we cant always get that. Sadly. From Alaska's litter I would love a show pup but life doesnt always work like that. So it really has to be a "hope".

I only want to breed when I want a pup or two.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Swarty I understand your point - but from what I have seen (and thats all I can talk about) - the pet breeders at least in CCs are causing the huge demand and causing the problems with rescue - most not even taking their pups back, and some of these pet breeders have dumped there young adults, and litters into rescue! 

When we first got into the breed, it was unheard of to see a CC litter for sale on epupz and other such sites, now theres always around 2/3 pages full. I know thats nothing like labs, staffies and other such popular breeds but thats a massive difference since 2006. People are producing them, and not really understanding them their selves, therefore can not educate the people their selling to.

I have a problem with pet breeders as I feel there needs to be more reasoning behind a litter, some will disagree and thats fine. I use to totally disagree with breeding, and its only the last few years I have became to accept the good breeders, breeding for a vaild reason. Thats more than likely the reason I find it hard to accept pet breeders who produce litters just to supply a market. Pet breeders have a number of litters, dont always keep and breed to supply the demand. Alot of the time I feel its also done for profit. I have not come across an ethical pet breeder yet, where my standards are met. Most breed for health and tempermant - alot think little about conformation and I know you will have seen the pet bred labs, nothing like they should be - just the same as CCs - then theres the pet breeders that dont care about tempermant and health and just what cute fluffy pups.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> When we first got into the breed, it was unheard of to see a CC litter for sale on epupz and other such sites, now theres always around 2/3 pages full. I know thats nothing like labs, staffies and other such popular breeds but thats a massive difference since 2006. People are producing them, and not really understanding them their selves, therefore can not educate the people their selling to.


I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head there


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Swarty I understand your point - but from what I have seen (and thats all I can talk about) - the pet breeders at least in CCs are causing the huge demand and causing the problems with rescue - most not even taking their pups back, and some of these pet breeders have dumped there young adults, and litters into rescue!


Maybe there should be another term to distinguish good breeders that don't show / work !!

Joking aside though - as I haven't been in Labs long enough to know if this is the case but some pedigrees do suggest it - do you think it could be a natural pain barrier that a breed goes through when it's popularity starts to increase - i.e. possibly often existing less than ethical breeders recognising a new revenue stream opportunity and siezing it 

ETA - even if it is a 'natural pain barrier' - I am not saying it is right - just speculating really on if this is the way things tend to go


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Swarty I understand your point - but from what I have seen (and thats all I can talk about) - the pet breeders at least in CCs are causing the huge demand and causing the problems with rescue - most not even taking their pups back, and some of these pet breeders have dumped there young adults, and litters into rescue!
> 
> When we first got into the breed, it was unheard of to see a CC litter for sale on epupz and other such sites, now theres always around 2/3 pages full. I know thats nothing like labs, staffies and other such popular breeds but thats a massive difference since 2006. People are producing them, and not really understanding them their selves, therefore can not educate the people their selling to.
> 
> I have a problem with pet breeders as I feel there needs to be more reasoning behind a litter, some will disagree and thats fine. I use to totally disagree with breeding, and its only the last few years I have became to accept the good breeders, breeding for a vaild reason. Thats more than likely the reason I find it hard to accept pet breeders who produce litters just to supply a market. Pet breeders have a number of litters, dont always keep and breed to supply the demand. Alot of the time I feel its also done for profit. I have not come across an ethical pet breeder yet, where my standards are met. Most breed for health and tempermant - alot think little about conformation and I know you will have seen the pet bred labs, nothing like they should be - just the same as CCs - then theres the pet breeders that dont care about tempermant and health and just what cute fluffy pups.


What name could you give to breeders who dont show but will take back a pup and do care about the breed?

I do know of the pet breeders you are on about and they anger me alot. But, I dont class myself the same as them. I would take back any of my pups, dont want to breed litter after litter for no reason and do care about were my pups end up.

So I dont know where I stand on this myself.:blink:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I dont know... as I only 'mix' with breeders who are breeding for a reason - with the aim of keeping a dog to show ect.. I know of breeders, who allow dogs to go for Hearing Dogs training. 

Anyone who breeds, with no aim but to supply a pet market is a pet breeder to me.. I class them all the same, as there is no reason behind the pups..well not a vaild one. (to me).


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

swarthy said:


> my pups would remain the *SAME PRICE* and that is around £150 less than some breeders charge - my choice


Your posts have been really enlightening as to why breeders charge so much - it makes a lot more sense now. Thank you :001_smile:

One thing though. You said you charge £150. That is so little to ask for considering all the financial expense/risk and hard work, that I can completely believe you don't make a profit. However, if you can break even with a litter of 8, surely the people charging £600+ are making a profit? I know there are more risks with some breeds than others and therefore they need to cost more but the breeds that cost £1000?  I don't know enough about the subject to presume to know, but it just _feels_ wrong.

I am perfectly happy to pay whatever it costs to get a well love, healthy dog, but I would feel uncomfortable about the breeder making a profit (I'd want them to cover their costs, inc any potential unexpected costs and any personal time off work they had taken).


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I think swarthy means £150 less than other breeders not puppies being sold at £150


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Also you say you dont want breeders to make a profit, but are ok with them covering their costs. Well that would mean every litter would be sold for different prices, although there is an avarge cost - each one will have a difference in costs. Would be ethical to charge different prices each litter? Puppy prices are set through lots of factors, that I feel it would be rather wrong to change it depending on going out costs every time.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I think swarthy means £150 less than other breeders not puppies being sold at £150


Thanks DD 



Myfynwy said:


> I am perfectly happy to pay whatever it costs to get a well love, healthy dog, but I would feel uncomfortable about the breeder making a profit (I'd want them to cover their costs, inc any potential unexpected costs and any personal time off work they had taken).


As I'm self employed working in a niche sector - I dread to think how many pups I would have to sell (or what price I would have to sell them for) to cover loss of earnings


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just my two pence... (as a puppy buyer not a breeder)

I do believe that good breeders are not in it for the money, almost by definition. If money is the crucial factor in their decision to breed I personally would hve nothing to do with them.

I also believe it can be very difficult for a good breeder to make any real money (if any at all), because of the phenomenal costs involved in doing it properly (showing / working, health tests, other veterinary stuff, equipment etc).

However, being a firm believer in positive reinforcement - I am happy for an exceptional breeder to make a few quid off me when I buy a pup. 
These folk are doing a difficult, demanding, complex and in many ways thankless job, in order to produce pups of excellent quality, that are healthy, well bred, well reared, and will make excellent pets or working or show dogs. I think they deserve to be rewarded fof their efforts.

For me, buying a pup is about getting the right pup from the right breeder - not cost. Certainly, when my parents bought Solo they didn't even think to ask the price. They just accepted it when they were eventually told, after they had gone through all the motions of vetting the breeder, being vetted in return, meeting the pups etc. I imagine I will be the same. 

I strongly object to the many unethical breeders maing a profit off their dogs / pups - but the good breeders are welcome to it.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

I have a question that a breeder can answer. When you sell a pup it comes with restricted papers, but for $200 more it can be a breeder dog. This happens in the states all the time. These dogs are all health tested. 
On the showing of a dog, I really don't understand the importance of it. If you go on akc.com and look how many dogs their are. I do not believe any one can know all there is about every breed. I only see 1 judge, not a panel, so how can they compare bos for any show? 
I don't think any one on the site has made any money breeding dogs. Theirs nothing wrong with making money, but everyone is either very rich or very poor at running a business. It is a business when a product is sold. This is not attacking anyone. If I was trying to better the breed I have, it would have to be for a profit, Because how would I be able to add to the stock.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

firsttime said:


> I have a question that a breeder can answer. When you sell a pup it comes with restricted papers, but for $200 more it can be a breeder dog. This happens in the states all the time. These dogs are all health tested.


not very decent breeders them  You dont have to be a breeder to know that.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

firsttime said:


> On the showing of a dog, I really don't understand the importance of it. If you go on akc.com and look how many dogs their are. I do not believe any one can know all there is about every breed. I only see 1 judge, not a panel, so how can they compare bos for any show?


A judge doesnt need to know about all breeds - judges can specalise in certain breeds. There is just one judge at a show you are right, but people attend more than one show with anyone dog. Each judge will have different opinions on a dog.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> A judge doesnt need to know about all breeds - judges can specalise in certain breeds. There is just one judge at a show you are right, but people attend more than one show with anyone dog. Each judge will have different opinions on a dog.


So what you are saying for example, I breed Poodles, and you breed German Shepard s. The Judge in question specializes in Poodles. Sounds like an unfair advantage to me. If showing is such a big part of the breeding with compliance of the breed, than the system needs to be changed. If a 100 dogs are competing and they only know a few, how then can any one judge a dog that they don't know what the standard is. So its the opinion of the judge that dog 'a' wins just because they don't know about the competition? That does not make sense to me. It is unfair to everyone else. If showing means so much they should have enough judges to cover the breeds. Like I said before health testing should be in the price of a puppy not showing and getting lucky.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

firsttime said:


> So what you are saying for example, I breed Poodles, and you breed German Shepard s. The Judge in question specializes in Poodles. Sounds like an unfair advantage to me. If showing is such a big part of the breeding with compliance of the breed, than the system needs to be changed. If a 100 dogs are competing and they only know a few, how then can any one judge a dog that they don't know what the standard is. So its the opinion of the judge that dog 'a' wins just because they don't know about the competition? That does not make sense to me. It is unfair to everyone else. If showing means so much they should have enough judges to cover the breeds. Like I said before health testing should be in the price of a puppy not showing and getting lucky.


I wrote a long response to your original question and then decided it really wasn't worth bothering - because your mindset is clearly very against showing.

===========================

Dogs in mixed breed company don't get 'lucky' - the people who judge mixed breeds at Open show level and above will be awarding Challenge Certificates in at least one breed and will have judged many breeds by the time they are at this level - at Championship Level - the demands on the judges in terms of experience and training are even higher.

There's no element of 'getting lucky' - dogs are shown regularly over a period of years - often at least on average once a week, picking up the opinions of a raft of judges - a single result at a single show means nothing - but luck doesn't come into it - when even at the lowest levels of showing - to win say Best in Show even at Limit shows - the dog will have to beat at least 100 other dogs through class entry and then BIS line-up.

At Open show level - this rises to several hundred dogs up to a couple of thousand - the dog having to win BOB, then first place in their group, and then best out of all the groups.

At Championship show level multiply this by several thousand dogs to beat.

====================================

Results can occasionally go unexpectedly at any level yes - but over a period of time, quality will always shine through - and even when they do go unexpectedly - the basic conformation and angulation with be there - it could the dog is a certain 'type' that may not appeal to the wider breed audience - but still meets the breed standard with the correct movement and temperament.

Breed judges even at Open level will have a attended breed seminars, passed hands on assessments by accredited trainers and usually attended hands on and conformation seminars and assesments.

When judging - a bad mouth is a bad mouth, a poor topline is a poor topline, poor movement is poor movement - good angulation is what it is - good balance is good balance - a poor or dodgy temperament is what it is.

So yes - at a single show, a dog can get lucky - but over time, the results will always speak for themselves - and there is a darn side more than luck involved in getting made up to a SH CH / CH, being awarded a Show Certificate of Merit at Open show level, or a youngster being awarded his JW by the time he is 18 months old. Even getting a dogs stud book number in many breeds is a challenge. In my own breed, classes of 30/40 are far from unusual at Championship show level.

Lesser specimens in many breeds quickly disappear from the showring - because the costs associated with showing are simply too high to continue with being booted or being awarded token places.

I have dogs at all different levels - I have a bitch I show only at the lower levels - she's a nice dog, but she has a few minor faults coupled with lack of substance, which make it difficult for her to compete at the higher levels - nevertheless - she's conformationally nice, is a cracking mover with a good temperament and has done well for me - her daughter is shown at every level.

I have dogs bought in from top kennels who are shown at all levels and do well - OK they are not going to make SH CH, I know their faults and weaknesses, I know one of them is very 'typey' so will appeal to a certain group of judges - the other is a very traditional bitch who was 4 before she really started to have wider appeal

They have done well for me, and allow me to enjoy my hobby - and who knows - with time and good breeding - just maybe one day I will move up a step - in the meantime, I enjoy my hobby - I attend seminars to learn, and am able to judge at Open Level and below and am learning more about both my own breed and others along the way.

=================

In summary - at a single show, yes - someone can get lucky - over a period of time - nope - doesn't work like that - which is why a single show result means nothing.

====================

There is also NO benefit to judges who don't have the required experience and aren't able to distinguish quality - because they won't get the entries at shows - showing is darn expensive these days and it's exhibitors who make the decision whether a judge is worth entering under or not.

=======================

Also - people who show get to know their breed extremely well - even if they don't have the best specimen / show-dog in the world, they will learn what their dogs faults are, enabling them to recognise what they need in a stiud dog to form the basis for their next generation

They will see the progeny of popular and less common studs, enabling them to make an informed choice.

Likewise - for those in the working arena, the same principles apply in terms of ability, temperament and speed - and even though the dogs may be leaner and lighter framed - they still need correct angulation and ability in order to do their job.

All this is knowledge that, with the greatest respect, a pet owner can never acquire.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I wrote a long response to your original question and then decided it really wasn't worth bothering - because your mindset is clearly very against showing.
> 
> ===========================
> 
> ...


No, I am not against showing, if thats what you into, thats great. To me if I look at 2 pups and both look the same and both are healthy, parents had health checks, and the only difference is showing then it boils down to cost. Sure you always don't get what you pay for, I don't show and I would never even consider it but I won't judge any one for showing just as I would hope no one judges me for my opinion on it. Out of the 4 dogs I own, 1 of them are show quality, but all my dogs have been health tested now, and I am not a breeder. I believe Breeders, Hobby breeders, back yard breeders all have some good points and some flaws. Remember, its just like cars, their's a price range for every one. 
I just can't believe that no one on the site says they want to make money or they make money at breeding. Again, I am not attacking any one for this or this forum. It seems no one that breeds is in it for making any money on any forum.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

firsttime said:


> It seems no one that breeds is in it for making any money on any forum.


Well even if they were (and some will be, some won't) they would be unlikely to say so :laugh:


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> See, I find that quite insulting. As Swarthy says, we work hard at jobs that have nothing to do with dogs to be able to afford to enjoy our hobby which involves dogs. Part of that may involve breeding.
> 
> So, we spend a small fortune on breeding, give up 8 weeks of our lives not to mention the stress and work involved and you think we should give our pups away to strangers for free or at a more realistic price?
> 
> ...


So instead its better for breeders to have litters not manage to get homes for them have the puppies up until 16 weeks plus? All just to hold out for what the breed is "worth"?

Not every home can afford £600 + in one lump sum but could give a very loving and supportive home.

FYI I paid alot of money for my Dobe and I also paid alot of money to rescue my Akita and considering the amount of time effort and work I have put into her I probaly should of been given her for free. But I paid the money becasue I knew I could give her a good home! N if I didn't take her she was going to end up being PTS.

I have seen breeders keep the majority of the litter because they can't find people who are willing to pay the price they are asking. So they would rather keep the puppys!

So wind your neck in

Also I thought it wasn't about making money? So surely the small fortune incurred with having the puppies isn't taken into consideration?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

firsttime said:


> To me if I look at 2 pups and both look the same and both are healthy, parents had health checks, and the only difference is showing then it boils down to cost. Sure you always don't get what you pay for, I don't show and I would never even consider it but I won't judge any one for showing just as I would hope no one judges me for my opinion on it. Out of the 4 dogs I own, 1 of them are show quality, but all my dogs have been health tested now, and I am not a breeder. I believe Breeders, Hobby breeders, back yard breeders all have some good points and some flaws. Remember, its just like cars, their's a price range for every one.
> I just can't believe that no one on the site says they want to make money or they make money at breeding. Again, I am not attacking any one for this or this forum. It seems no one that breeds is in it for making any money on any forum.


You keep saying "I am not a breeder" - if your dogs have mated and a litter results - you *ARE* a breeder whether you like it or not - seems things with your dogs have moved on a long way in a short time 

As for your dog being 'show quality' - how exactly do you know this if you don't show? you can't - simple as - only showing over an extended period of time under many different judges can tell you whether the dog is 'show quality'.

Picking two dogs that look alike and are health tested is simply not enough - many of the 'pet breeders' I know in my own breed are as aware of pedigrees, line breeding, outcrossing - what is too close and what isn't as I and many other show and working breeders are.

They use show and working quality stud dogs dependent on their lines in an aim of producing healthy pups that meet the breed standard and some of which can, if required, go into the showring or field - IMHO - that sets them MILES apart from - oh these two look nice - lets mate them.

What do you know about conformation? can you list all the breed faults for all your dogs? I can - do you know which dog could possibly correct those faults? I do - not based on - oh - they look nice - but on many years of research and damned hard work.

Clearly if you can't believe that people 'don't want to make money' out of breeding that suggests you do (even though you are not a breeder with dogs that have mated ).

Anyone who thinks breeding is an easy way to make money (possibly with the exception of a small handful of rarer breeds) quite simply isn't doing it properly.

Breeding to me is how can I correct my dogs faults - can I improve on their health results - is it possible to improve on temperament and character - will I have a dog good enough to show - and if I don't - I still have a nice pet who could, subject to everything being in order - give me my show dog on my next generation.

No amount of money can buy the feeling when you produce that 'special pup' and THAT is why people breed and work darn hard to improve their lines.

If I want money - I work - if I want a puppy I breed - even though my work is nothing to do with dogs, the two are inextricably linked - because the work pays for me to keep, show and breed my dogs.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> Not every home can afford £600 + in one lump sum but could give a very loving and supportive home.


Then I am sure they will be able to find a suitable dog in a rescue centre or if they simply MUST have that pedigree ... do what many other people do ... SAVE


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Ooooh - get you! Had you figured as someone who could take a joke - sorry, my mistake. Won't happen again.
> 
> I could be equally as nasty to you in return - but what the hell - I've had a glass of wine and am feeling too mellow to bother. I'll content myself with pointing out that if you take your head from up your @rse long enough to read my posts properly you'll notice that I was not claiming that the expense of dog showing reflected on the price of a pup. The OP stated this - I was merely letting him know the true cost of dog showing so that he could figure it into his equations.


The OP is a SHE not a HE

thank you


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> I have seen breeders keep the majority of the litter because they can't find people who are willing to pay the price they are asking. So they would rather keep the puppys!
> 
> So wind your neck in
> 
> Also I thought it wasn't about making money? So surely the small fortune incurred with having the puppies isn't taken into consideration?


How rude - you think it is CHEAPER for a breeder to retain their pups rather than let them go for a lower price - mmm - I don't think so - the most expensive time without any associated breeding costs is buying a pup in and all the costs that go with it - and those are costs anyone has to face with a puppy.

Ever thought it might be because the owners are not worthy of their pups? all the times those pups are with the breeder - they are costing them money they will NEVER recoup - so wind your neck in as you so succinctly put it - it's about ensuring the dogs go to the RIGHT people - not about money - and sadly some people are far too blinkered and naive to see that.

Go around the rescues - look at which dogs are there - they will seldom be from the good breeders - because good breeders will take them back or assist with rehoming.

What you frequently find in rescue is the 'bargain basement pups' - because they are sick or untrainable - or the high price tagged crosses because they don't turn out as they thought - or because again they are untrainable or sick.

Good breeders don't want their dogs to end up in rescue, and if that means holding out for the RIGHT people - then so be it - keeping several young pups is expensive and no mean feat for anyone - even the most experienced breeder.

If you think it is about money then you are seriously misguided.


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

I've bred 1 litter and I definately didn't make any money. I spent 2100 pound, all health tests for bitch, stud fee, travel expenses, worming, food, 1st vacc, kc reg, eye and hearing tests for pups. I kept 1 pup, gave 1 to a friend and sold 2 for 930 pounds, even if I'd sold the other 2 it would only have been 1860, so I would have still been out of pocket by 240 pounds. If I breed a 2nd litter from my girl I think I will just about break even on the cost of the 2 litters.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

As per my previous post you really don't and shouldn't expect to make lots of money. If you do then IMO you are breeding for the wrong reasons and are no different from a commercial breeder.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I think swarthy means £150 less than other breeders not puppies being sold at £150


£150 less than other breeders?  Oh yes, that does make more sense doesn't it 



Devil-Dogz said:


> Also you say you dont want breeders to make a profit, but are ok with them covering their costs. Well that would mean every litter would be sold for different prices, although there is an avarge cost - each one will have a difference in costs. Would be ethical to charge different prices each litter? Puppy prices are set through lots of factors, that I feel it would be rather wrong to change it depending on going out costs every time.


I don't literally mean "breeders can ONLY ever break even otherwise it's unethical"! Working out an estimation for any risks and unforeseen costs, for the foreseen costs (!) and even including some payment for their own individual time seems more than reasonable.

Just, knowing very little about the subject, I cannot get my head around how someone could charge £1000 per puppy without making a significant profit. I know that the breeds "worth" this much are usually high risk pregnancies so maybe the maths really does work out without a guaranteed profit.

This thread has been useful for me though! I felt uneasy with breeders charging so much when looking into getting a puppy one day, but now feel that it is justified (at least, most of the time!) ethically  At least, I understand it a bit more.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> Just, knowing very little about the subject, I cannot get my head around how someone could charge £1000 per puppy without making a significant profit. I know that the breeds "worth" this much are usually high risk pregnancies so maybe the maths really does work out without a guaranteed profit.


As I and others have said on this thread and in the past - there will be a small number of breeds which because of their rarity - possible lack of health tests could generate revenue.

However - if it was all about money - then surely all breeders would be homing in on such breeds (some puppy buyers can wait a couple of years for puppies of such breeds) - rather than the breed we tend to stumble upon and fall in love with.

Believe me - showing Labradors is no mean feat - numbers are ridiculously high in the ring and competition is fierce - it would be easy to 'switch allegiance' - but I don't want to - I love all dogs - but I adore my labs


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

> firsttime - In every post you make you show why you shouldnt be breeding, you have no basic understanding of anything. I cant be bothered to explain to you, why showing should be important and to be honest I think your posts and such narrow mindedness is down to you making your self feel better for allowing your pets to have mated. Hence not classing yours self a breeder! - 



Myfynwy said:


> Just, knowing very little about the subject, I cannot get my head around how someone could charge £1000 per puppy without making a significant profit.


and I would agree with you, if the litter was of a good size. I know for a fact that if we had a litter of two HL girls we could get away with charging £1000 as alot of breeders do, and that certainly wouldnt cover out costs. Also baring in mind one of them two would be staying with us.

People do charge £1000 for puppies, and will sometimes make a 'nice' profit. But that doesnt mean it was the reason for the price, you need to consider alot of things - I personally couldnt sleep at night charging £1000 of course I believe any puppy I would ever have would be worth it ten times over. People do charge such prices in my breed, even more so for HL females as well bred ones from sought after lines are hard to come by as breeders keep them close. But to me they are to over charged compared to their HL male, and puff litter mates.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

I would sooner keep the whole litter than give them away to homes I felt were less than perfect.

I have already said to my OH that I will keep the whole litter if I have to.

If I accepted everyone who contacted me about a litter I would have about 100 people on a waiting list by now however I only have a few (5) and even then they will be fully checked and home checked before getting one of mine. 

Its not about money. Its about producing happy, healthy (hopefully show standard) dogs.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Some fasionable breeds are selling for significant amounts I paid £900 for my Mini Smooth Dachshund (small what I call hand held breeds) 
Yet our Pharaoh Hound (they are quite rare) surprisingly sold for same as our Dalmatians and many Pharaoh Hound breeders have difficulty selling puppies.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sadly - some people will believe what they want to believe - however misguided.

I can remember one of my puppy buyers staying with us overnight as he had a 600 mile round trip first to view, and then collect his pup.

He knew - following the health problems he had with his first dog, why he made that journey - we got talking about the costs associated with dog breeding and even though he knew why he made the journey he did - it was only at that point what was associated with all the testing actually struck him.

Sometimes even those who want a well bred pup from health tested parents, only see the £500 handed over at the time they collect their pup, and fail to correlate it with the costs that have gone into producing that litter in the first place - human nature I guess


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Dazadal said:


> Some fasionable breeds are selling for significant amounts I paid £900 for my Mini Smooth Dachshund (small what I call hand held breeds)
> Yet our Pharaoh Hound (they are quite rare) surprisingly sold for same as our Dalmatians and many Pharaoh Hound breeders have difficulty selling puppies.


Oooohhhhh....Pharoah Hounds are lovely. My Sister-in-Law is Maltese and has five back home in Malta. She didn't bring them over when she married my brother cos they live in the middle of nowhere on Bodmin Moor and she didn't want to lose them. She says they can get out of most places if they really want to. Far too much temptation for them on the moor.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Sometimes even those who want a well bred pup from health tested parents, only see the £500 handed over at the time they collect their pup, and fail to correlate it with the costs that have gone into producing that litter in the first place - human nature I guess


I think thats the same with anything isnt it. I mean how many of us have pulled this face > :blink: at the prices of TVs, Laptops, Cars ect.. When not really understanding the work, money put into making them. I know I do but then I really do have no idea how their made


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Yes despite their name Pharaoh Hounds are from Malta the are thought to be descended from a "Pharaoh type" hound brought to the Mediterranean Islands by the Phoecians from Egypt, hence the Ibizian Hound and Cirneco Dell Etna. I was expecting her to cost me upwards of £1000 due to their relative rareity but was surprised to find that they dont sell as there is little demand for them!!!
I think smaller dogs fit more easily into modern lifestyles maybe hence their higher cost?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Dazadal said:


> Yes despite their name Pharaoh Hounds are from Malta the are thought to be descended from a "Pharaoh type" hound brought to the Mediterranean Islands by the Phoecians from Egypt, hence the Ibizian Hound and Cirneco Dell Etna. I was expecting her to cost me upwards of £1000 due to their relative rareity but was surprised to find that they dont sell as there is little demand for them!!!
> I think smaller dogs fit more easily into modern lifestyles maybe hence their higher cost?


they not too popular are they either? i saw some for sale locally that were 6 mths old.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I think thats the same with anything isnt it. I mean how many of us have pulled this face > :blink: at the prices of TVs, Laptops, Cars ect.. When not really understanding the work, money put into making them. I know I do but then I really do have no idea how their made


:lol: :lol: - this is very true - off to find a few TV and computer forums and have a whinge about prices :lol:

Joking aside however on some household electrical items - I actually think many such items are these days very reasonably priced - and there is a reason for that - mass production - and the same principle applies to dog breeding - with good breeders only breeding occasionally for quality rather than quantity.

What's the average lifespan of a TV these days? 5 years? I am old enough to remember when it was 15 to 20 years (and in fact all the TV's bar one in my house are at least 15 years old - the that isn't - blew up a few months back :

People say you can't apply the same rules to electrical items and white goods - but the fact remains that the principle is far more similar than many of us probably realise - the difference is - most of us don't mass produce puppies.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Dexter wrote


> they not too popular are they either? i saw some for sale locally that were 6 mths old.


The couple that bred our Pharaoh Hound Honey, are the Top UK breeders of Pharaoh Hounds and have been for several years running and they had a puppy dog until he was 7 months old. Yet with Dalmatians I could have sold our last litter three times over (not all were suitable). I think with some rare breeds people don't know what they are I get some very strange guesses when walking Honey Italian Greyhound is the most common.

I certainly think fashion and notoriety of a breed has an effect on price. Dalmatians are relatively common and certainly extensively puppy farmed. With our last litter I had one woman from Birmingham ask what the difference was between my puppies for £600 or one a man from Powys was trying to her for "£250 no papers" he had kindly offered to meet her half way in a rural location!!!!!!!!:cryin:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> The OP is a SHE not a HE
> 
> thank you


And I am supposed to know this how? Many apologies for not using my crystal ball - but may I respectfully suggest that if you object to being mistaken for the wrong gender then you choose a user name that is more obviously feminine.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> And I am supposed to know this how? Many apologies for not using my crystal ball - but may I respectfully suggest that if you object to being mistaken for the wrong gender then you choose a user name that is more obviously feminine.


Stig is her dog.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd love a Pug or a French Bulldog but it aint gonna happen any day soon when they are over £1500. I know with this sort of breed there can be added problems with whelping and that the litters are (compared to Rotts!) small so I can understand why the price is high - but just out of my budget atm


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

swarthy said:


> You keep saying "I am not a breeder" - if your dogs have mated and a litter results - you *ARE* a breeder whether you like it or not - seems things with your dogs have moved on a long way in a short time
> 
> As for your dog being 'show quality' - how exactly do you know this if you don't show? you can't - simple as - only showing over an extended period of time under many different judges can tell you whether the dog is 'show quality'.
> 
> ...


Do I know all the faults with my breed. The answer is no. Can I learn them, yes. Can I specialize in this breed, Without a doubt yes. All I was saying is 1 judge can't know everything about every breed and be able to judge fairly. I give people credit that want to work with their breed and improve it. I can see it cost money to do this. I am not begrudging anyone from making money.My whole point was if a person such as yourself can tell about flaws, then why is it so important to show for a person who might not know as much as you? I never said breeding was easy. If a person does it right then it will cost money. We can agree to disagree on showing.


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

firsttime said:


> but all my dogs have been health tested now, and I am not a breeder.


You've had your dogs MRI scanned? including the bitch who is possibly in whelp?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

firsttime said:


> Can I specialize in this breed, Without a doubt yes.


HOW? you are not challenging your dog against others of your breed - you are not there seeing the good, the bad, the indifferent - you can read what you want on the internet all you like, but that is no substitute for seeing these dogs week in, week out.

Do you attend breed seminars? have you taken any assessments or exams? do you understand how dogs should move? what their bites should be like - which breeds have different bites? which breeds don't follow the 'normal' angulation patterns ? what the purpose of the angulation (or lack of it is for?

Would you recognise faults with feet / pasterns / movement / angulation - how can you if you are not 'out there' competing and looking on a regular basis.

How do you learn which are the good stud dogs - the stud dogs that only produce good with good bitches - and the stud dogs that produce good with ANY bitch - which dogs can complement your bitches faults - how do you see the progeny of these stud dogs? Which stud dogs should you avoid? where are the not so prominent and popular stud dogs that produce good but not used that often.

You say you can - I am curious as to how - I've been in Labs 8 years - and in dogs pretty much all my life even when I didn't own them - working in boarding kennels and top show kennels - and classify myself as at the very beginning of my knowledge with a frightening amount to learn and not enough time to learn it al.

Putting two dogs together who look similar  for what purpose other than to sell?



Sophiekins said:


> You've had your dogs MRI scanned? including the bitch who is possibly in whelp?


 Would they MRI a bitch who is possibly in the early stages of pregnancy


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Would they MRI a bitch who is possibly in the early stages of pregnancy


Exactly!!!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

jenniferx said:


> OK I haven't gone mad I promise- are there any breeders out there who do it responsibly and just take the entire financial hit, without even seeking to cover their costs?


If I breed from Kite, it will be with all health tests done with the aim of keeping a puppy for myself. I'd rather give the other puppies to people I know who will give them good homes than sell them to strangers.


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

swarthy said:


> HOW? you are not challenging your dog against others of your breed - you are not there seeing the good, the bad, the indifferent - you can read what you want on the internet all you like, but that is no substitute for seeing these dogs week in, week out.
> 
> Do you attend breed seminars? have you taken any assessments or exams? do you understand how dogs should move? what their bites should be like - which breeds have different bites? which breeds don't follow the 'normal' angulation patterns ? what the purpose of the angulation (or lack of it is for?
> 
> ...


I admit I made mistakes with my dogs. I should have done everything before the possible mating.* I did learn a lot from all of you - even though I might not have liked your answers.* I can't do the mri until finding out for sure if she is in whelp or not. Again my fault, did not ask enough questions first. In response to, can I specialize in my breed, I said yes with out a doubt. I know it won't be over night and there is always some thing to learn about my breed. I have found a breeder that specializes in King Charles Cavalier, that does show (ironic ) that would work with me. My questioning may come from left field and insult or make you angry, but I am trying to learn and do not mean any thing by it. Who knows, maybe 1 day my eventual line will be showing. I thought all of you would like that last line.(lol) One question, I was able to check back 5 generations on the female and 3 on the male with no medical problems, would that make it more likely the they would be okay?


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## Sophiekins (Oct 20, 2009)

firsttime said:


> I admit I made mistakes with my dogs. I should have done everything before the possible mating.* I did learn a lot from all of you - even though I might not have liked your answers.* I can't do the mri until finding out for sure if she is in whelp or not. Again my fault, did not ask enough questions first. In response to, can I specialize in my breed, I said yes with out a doubt. I know it won't be over night and there is always some thing to learn about my breed. I have found a breeder that specializes in King Charles Cavalier, that does show (ironic ) that would work with me. My questioning may come from left field and insult or make you angry, but I am trying to learn and do not mean any thing by it. Who knows, maybe 1 day my eventual line will be showing. I thought all of you would like that last line.(lol) One question, I was able to check back 5 generations on the female and 3 on the male with no medical problems, would that make it more likely the they would be okay?


Then why don't you rectify those mistakes and get the mismate jab? as you have not had the parents MRI scanned as opposed to bringing Cavaliers into the world destined to suffer unimaginable pain?????? Of course everyone has to start somewhere, but NOT at the expense of their dogs. The research and learning starts way before the breeding.

You say you were able to check back 5 generations on the males side and 3 on the females, was this cardiologist certificates, eye certificates - did you see the certificates? Any dog can 'look' fine on the outside to the untrained eye, what's going on on the inside is a different matter. Would you recognise the signs of syringomyelia? most owners don't - they think their dog has quirky little ways when in actual fact they are suffering a great deal.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

well, when your charging £3,000 (yes thousand!!) for a 'tea-cup' poodle & a 'rare white/blue' chi (adverts easy to find on a well known website e pups (with the Z not a s - trying not to boost it up in ratings) 

studding our a 'runt of the litter so no papers yorkshire terrier' and crosses for £900 with no health tests... then I guess yes!! 

I think that good breeders are in the minority and if (oh come the glory day! :cryin: ) that we manage to get rid of the byb & just want one litter then spay( but never get round to it) / fancy a litter of pups / kids want to have puppies (didnt realise the kids were in charge of the dogs!) / was a accident bridage, I think that rescues will go down by about 90% and people may have to wait but will get a fantastic pup (and kitten  ) as a loving pet.

just wish we could make a law or do a petition any ideas?? :


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

I haven't read the whole thread cuz it's huge but there are so many things that can vary the price of a litter. As others have said, there could be pups that arent KC registered vs pups that are. What about pups that had a poor start? 

Our pups for example - we're first time breeders and we've tried to do everything by the book. We're not 'in it for money', we didn't even plan to breed yet but our pups have hard a hard time (and they're only 5 days old). I've taken 2 weeks off work, we're having to hand feed the pups every 2 hours (including at night time) so our sleep is VERY disrupted, we've had 3 visits to the vets already because the pups weren't putting weight on and all this for a 2 pup litter. 

However, there is nothing we wouldn't do for our two dogs (mum and dad) and the puppies, especially after hand feeding them as we've got an incredible bond with them already. 

It's also incredibly difficult for some breeders to determine the price to set for their pups. We've been researching loads to decide on a price for ours and are still struggling but I definately don't think it's just a money making exercise for everyone.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Tiggerminx - can I ask you why you've bred a litter if you don't intend to keep a puppy?


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Ridgielover said:


> Tiggerminx - can I ask you why you've bred a litter if you don't intend to keep a puppy?


I haven't said we're not keeping one, infact we haven't decided - we were advised that if we kept a puppy from the litter, mum and dad would be less likely to breed again (we're not sure whether this is true so something we need to look into). We're also getting married in July and hoping to move house is September so we need to consider whether it would be fair to put a relatively new puppy through that kind of disruption.

Also, as I said, the mating/breeding wasn't planned. We had been keeping mum and dad seperate but they managed to get some 'alone time' somewhere lol.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> we were advised that if we kept a puppy from the litter, mum and dad would be less likely to breed again (we're not sure whether this is true so something we need to look into).


NOT TRUE !!! ..believe me once your bitch is in season again your male dog will eat through walls to get to her - my advice is to get her spayed or him neutered as soon as possible and if you keep a bitch puppy he'll try and mate her too once she starts her season ( yes even though she will be his daughter ) ditto if you keep a male pup he'll try and mate with his mum - dogs just don't care  it's up to you as the owner to do the responsible thing if you cannot guarantee that they can all be kept separate !


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

People dont show their dogs for money! People show their dogs for love of the breed and to show how great their dog is. 

Most of the time the dog enjoys it just as much as the person. 

And its very mis-informed of you to think that show dogs are kept in cages! My lot are kept in the house and rule the roost. 

Many people on here who show and breed have their dogs in their home roaming free not in kennels. 

And infact most of the dogs I saw at crufts were outside hte crate on the benches or walking round with their owner.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Show dog








Show dog








Show dog










From my own Website


> Owned with Love, Shown with Pride, Bred with Care
> 
> Calling Loweherz a kennel is rather misleading. I use the term "kennel" loosely, basically to describe that the animals here are dogs, that is the only reason. My dogs are not kennelled. They are in the house like any other member of the family, coming and going from the house to the garden of their own free will. They sleep in the house, uncrated (unless in season, for protection), normally at the side of my bed, or on their own giant leather bean bags. They are treated like members of the family, and as such they have guidelines and rules which they are taught from a young age and continue to follow for the rest of their lives. This allows us to all live together in peace and harmony. Let's face it; nobody wants an 11stone delinquent dog leaping about all over the place! It's not safe for anybody.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I


> haven't said we're not keeping one, infact we haven't decided - we were advised that if we kept a puppy from the litter, mum and dad would be less likely to breed again


FFS !! What IDIOT suggested that    Sometimes I cannot believe what I'm hearing. IGNORE that advice - it is utter rubbish.



> Also, as I said, the mating/breeding wasn't planned. We had been keeping mum and dad seperate but they managed to get some 'alone time' somewhere lol.


Then I'm guessing they haven't had any health tests  I hope you are getting your girl spayed and your dog neutered.


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

Not all breeders are in it to "make money".
We went to look at a particular puppy and fell in love with her. However, on talking to the breeder, she was concerned that maybe this pup wasn't right for us (was going to be quite delicate and we have a springer x lab who is a bit clumsy to say the least ) The breeder asked if we would like to see another litter of puppies she had available, and we agreed. However, they cost more than we had budgeted for (long story) and so we were going to say thanks but no thanks. The breeder asked us if we would like to take the new puppy for the price of the old one (quite a difference in price!!!) when she saw how tempted we were.
Definitely the right decision for us - Dexter is an absolute treasure and the way he is with the rest of our gang is just brilliant. I do wonder how we would have managed with a "delicate little dog!" and am forever grateful that Dexter's breeder was not motivated by money, but by wanting the best home for her puppies!!!
So my answer to the OP question is definitely, not all breeders!!!


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I
> 
> FFS !! What IDIOT suggested that    Sometimes I cannot believe what I'm hearing. IGNORE that advice - it is utter rubbish.
> 
> Then I'm guessing they haven't had any health tests  I hope you are getting your girl spayed and your dog neutered.


Our intention was to breed them but not til next year (due to the wedding and moving this year). That is also why we haven't had them spayed and neutered!

So why don't you get off your high horse and stop trying to dictate what people can and cannot do. Just because this time round was an unplanned mating, doesn't mean it wasn't something we planned to do in the future and doesn't mean we 'must' be irresponsible breeders.

We joined this forum to get help and advice because our puppies weren't doing so well. We've worked really hard this past week to keep them alive and have done everything as best we possibly could!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So why don't you get off your high horse and stop trying to dictate what people can and cannot do. Just because this time round was an unplanned mating, doesn't mean it wasn't something we planned to do in the future and doesn't mean we 'must' be irresponsible breeders.


I'm not dictating - I'm fully aware that people are going to do it anyway regardless of what I or any one else says. It was the statement that having a pup would make the dam and sire less likely to mate was the one that astounded me.  The fact that you seemed to place some credence on it speaks volumes.



> Just because this time round was an unplanned mating, doesn't mean it wasn't something we planned to do in the future


Well, having been through the whelping she has and requiring oxytocin, I'm assuming that you realise it would not be best to breed from her again and as you have already had difficulty keeping them apart, spaying and neutering would the be most responsible thing to do - I certainly wouldn't rely on the advice you seem to be considering that keeping a puppy would make them less likely to mate.


> and doesn't mean we 'must' be irresponsible breeders.


And having health tests alone and loving your pets doesn't, in itself make anyone, a responsible breeder.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not dictating - I'm fully aware that people are going to do it anyway regardless of what I or any one else says. It was the statement that having a pup would make the dam and sire less likely to mate was the one that astounded me.  The fact that you seemed to place some credence on it speaks volumes. And having health tests alone and loving your pets doesn't in itself make anyone a responsible breeder.


Ok, I apologise for the way in which I responded. No hard feelings?

All I was trying to stress is that we want to be responsible breeders. We love dogs and we love our breed and didn't intend to give the impression we were careless breeders. It's difficult to know what advice to believe and not believe which is why I pointed out that we needed to look into it but I'm glad to know it's not true as we'd really love to keep our little girl


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Have been watching this thread evolve, I'm speechless at how human beings can be so selfish with their best friends


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> All I was trying to stress is that we want to be responsible breeders. We love dogs and we love our breed and didn't intend to give the impression we were careless breaders.


tiggerminx, without wanting to sound judgemental, surely you can see from what has been posted on this thread, other threads and the stickys in the breeding section, that you really haven't gone about things the right way. You may love your dogs very much, but you've really let them down by allowing this mating to go ahead.

You say you love your breed, but that means a lot more than owning a dog and bitch and producing puppies from them. Are they health tested, are they good examples of the breed, do they compliment each other, make up for any weak points each has? Those are just some of the questions you need to research and know the answers for, and be prepared to accept the best made plans that you have, may not work out, and put your dogs first.

That's what you haven't done, and that's why people get frustrated. Nobody wants to push people away from this forum, but you have to be prepared in the sort of situation you're in, to receive criticism; my advice would be to take it on the chin and hopefully learn from it.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Thats the one.
> 
> Remember those poor people who came on here after advice for sick puppies they bought from this person...


Truly Vile.

Honest.

I did not know how it would be taken me posting that up but I thought if I ended up suspended at least it was for something decent.

I can only think what sort of people they are but tbh they dont deserve to own any sort of animal.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> I'd be interested to hear peoples thought.
> 
> But why do you think its fair for breeders of certain breeds to be able to charge more for said breed?
> 
> ...


£300 for a c-section? Where do you live and can I use your vet? Mine have always been in the region of £800, £60 to feed a litter? The food I feed is £50 a bag and they certainly get through more than one bag, worming, vaccinating, I think it's more likely to be 4 or 5 times more than that if fed correctly, KC registering, micro-chipping, travelling expenses, vet bedding and everything else associated with whelping, health tests on dog/bitch, stud fee (cost of pup).....and the list goes on.

If only things were as cheap as you say!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

StigDarley I would love to know who your vet is. My bitch had a C section nearly 10 weeks ago done during the day so done by my own vet cost £400 that was with the discount I get at my vets for a non emergency section. I say non emergency as there was no problems such as a puppy getting stuck she was extremely tired having already having had 5 pups. An xray showed another 5 pups inside and we made the desicion to operate rather than risk a problem later because of a tired bitch unable to push 5 pups out an then having to have an emergency section.

As for £60 to feed the pups I've no idea what crap you choose to feed but my 8 pups are going through 1 bag of puppy food a week plus either tinned puppy food or raw mince. More like £60 a week. Yes mum would get fed anyway but Freyja was eating in exssess of 1.5 kg of raw meat on top of her normal food and was still struggling to put any weight on whilst she was feeding her pup. I used my own stud who had a compatible pedigree but if I had used the stud I wanted that belonged to Freyja's breeder it would have cost me a pup. 1 pup is already going to them as Freyja came to me on breeding terms with a puppy being returned to them. We have had to wait 3 years as she re asborbed her litter 18 months ago. My pups are whippets and will sell for £400 2 pups are staying with me leaving me 5 to sell if I'm lucky I will cover the money I have paid out rearing this litter.

A friends whippet had an emergency c section and I have been told their vets bill was more like £1500 with only 5 live pups being born there is no way they will cover what they have paid out. We knew we were expecting a big litter even though we only did 1 mating.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

rachel1980 said:


> And why are they at crufts? For the big fat cheque.
> 
> ....


Which big fat cheque would that be?????? All you get is a big fat rossette


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

there is a £5 cash prize at onme of the shows Im going to :lol:

lol that big fat cheque!! haha :lol:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I won 50p each placing at the show yesterday.....went straight back on to the rescue stand, not that it would have even covered entry fees or petrol :nono:

There is no money to be made in showin, and anyone that thinks there is had little understanding on showing, so has nothing to base an opinion on!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

we got talking at our vets about c-sections (something we have never had to have yet, thank god!) and it is £300 with an extra £60 added for out of hours, that was quoted for a bull dog, so would be less for us who own a smaller breed..That all came straight from the practice manager.....


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Hey hey... Now, I won a HUGE prize for BIS a couple of weeks ago! £30 and a bling trophy :lol: Nearly paid for the day.... 

I think people get confused because in america it is very different, prize money for some shows can run into the thousands and people DO make money out of it and run it as a business (eg professional handlers). We dont have the same sort of thing here, I think Crufts BIS prize money is only about £200? :lol: If you bear in mind that this years winner came from Scotland and had to return for the final day, 4 trips of what, 400 miles (scotland to brum)??? Thats a big chunk taken out of the prize money just in fuel!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

IN answer to the original question: Are all breeders wanting to make money?

Well I've no doubt that there are many breeder out there who are in it for the money.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> we got talking at our vets about c-sections (something we have never had to have yet, thank god!) and it is £300 with an extra £60 added for out of hours, that was quoted for a bull dog, so would be less for us who own a smaller breed..That all came straight from the practice manager.....


 I have found the receipt from the vets for Freyja's section the cost of the section was £225 the rest was the xray the aneathestic and other things both she and the pups had. The total bill I paid for a whippet was just over £400 that was with the discount I get. I know someone whose whippet had an emergency section out of hours and was told you could add another £1000 to my bill and it still would not have been as much as hers.

The break down for prize money for crufts is.

Best in show £100
reserve best in show £50
best in group £50
reserve best in group £25
best of breed £25
best opposite sex £10

That is straight from this years catalogue so the dog that wins best in show has won the grand total of £175. It cost me over £50 to enter just one dog with entries, car park, an extra pass for my OH and a catalogue. Then after all that Owen was ill so didn't go


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> we got talking at our vets about c-sections (something we have never had to have yet, thank god!) and it is £300 with an extra £60 added for out of hours, that was quoted for a bull dog, so would be less for us who own a smaller breed..That all came straight from the practice manager.....


I was quoted by 3 vets, £550-700 for a c-section for my cat!! and those were without meds and afercare!  :blink:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

a friends dog had a c section last sunday £2500


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> I was quoted by 3 vets, £550-700 for a c-section for my cat!! and those were without meds and afercare!  :blink:


Think it depends where abouts your are, the vets we use is 10 min drive, the local vets would be alot more I have no doubt - due to where we are!!


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> we got talking at our vets about c-sections (something we have never had to have yet, thank god!) and it is £300 with an extra £60 added for out of hours, that was quoted for a bull dog, so would be less for us who own a smaller breed..That all came straight from the practice manager.....


Sounds cheap DD! Bet it would be a fair bit more for a larger dog - more like £600-£800
Regards

Ms DT


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Sounds cheap DD! Bet it would be a fair bit more for a larger dog - more like £600-£800
> Regards
> 
> Ms DT


not sure, the quote was for a bulldog - would be less for us. But we do travel 15mins to the vets. Although have nearer vets, when needed - alot more expensive, and we trust our vet more.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> not sure, the quote was for a bulldog - would be less for us. But we do travel 15mins to the vets. Although have nearer vets, when needed - alot more expensive, and we trust our vet more.


Same here our vet is 10 miles away. In an emergency I can there in abiut 20 minutes but have to be carefull because of the amount of speed cameras along the road. We have a vets just up the road but I do not like them and would not trust them with a dead flea. I could walk there quicker than I can get to our vets in the car but I perefer my vet.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

My vet is less than 300 yards away.. our emergency one is about 10 mins in car.. and very expensive..


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I love my vet 
Dirt cheap, 24hour vet lives in plus nursing staff, open for appointments on a sat and sunday, and from 5am til 10pm 2 nights a week, and is only 10 mins away


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

I love our vet. They are a 15-25min drive away, but they just surprise me time and time again with how brilliant they are. A scheduled c-section will cost just slightly more than the listed spay costs regarding weight:

A bitch weighing less than 10kg getting spayed is £105, a scheduled C-section for the same size bitch is £125-£150.

A bitch weighing 40-50kg getting spayed is £125, a scheduled C-section is £150-£175.

The cost for emergency, out of hours is just over double the price of the scheduled.

They have 3 locations within driving distance, one branch is closer than the one I prefer to attend, but its only 5 minutes either way! They are open on Saturdays and Sundays AND they have interests in cardiology and genetics respectively, so I can bring all of my questions home with conclusive answers ^___^

Ooh, and low and sometimes no consultation fees depending on length of your visit


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## andrea1983 (Feb 11, 2011)

omg. good breeders never make alot profit, take this for example(ready)
my alaskan mal bitch, approx £400 stud fee, plus petrol from devon to linconshire x 2. bitch has approx 5 pups, then at 6 weeks pregers eats a fb object, in the vets and out of hours for neally a week, had surgery to remove the fb, this was on christmas day, i was in tears, i thought i was gonna loes my baby girl, bill come to £1000 and that was some money taken of the bill,i had to try to get a discount, it paid off, worst christmas ever, i wasn't with my kids, i felt so bad, and to top it all of, she gave birth approx 3 weeks later, 5 born, 3 died, 2 servived, the others died of bad imune system, because of what mum went through.. breeding does not always go to plan, you have quiet momments where you don't see a dime coming in, then busy momments, you have to make the money last to the next litter which is any where between 4months to 6 months,its only the byb / puppy farmers that make profit so to say, because they dont do any hip/eye elbow etc etc testing, then they have the cheek to say were are fully trained specialist licenced breeding kennels, who have 20 dogs plus, have there pups in stables all in row, about 5 litters or more, crazy, gets me angry, then selling a pup at half price, most proberly cuz they just want to get rid, not because they want the pup to go to a loving home, even a chav can buy a pup at half price, do you think they will pay out every thing a dog needs and deserve..


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

Quick question. Surely if you're declaring it to the tax man you can claim expenses? Whilst if there's no profit that won't help you, if there is you should be taxed on less of it (or none of it if your expenditures are larger than your profit - which they should be).

However I could be wrong.


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

Taxable event it is

there are 'concessions' but do not expect them you do however deduct expenses fromt he money you make and could be taxed on the balance

You should, however, check with your own tax office as I may be wrong

However do not think that you are not making a declarable income just because you only breed once every so often


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> breeding does not always go to plan, you have quiet momments where you don't see a dime coming in, then busy momments, you have to make the money last to the next litter which is any where between 4months to 6 months,


What sort of breeding are you doing to have a litter every 4 - 6 months - from what you are saying it sounds like a business to you.


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## andrea1983 (Feb 11, 2011)

was that tax question for my self, down my way if you have less then 4 litters a year you do not have to declare any thing to the tax man, and i do not class 1-2 litters a year as income. like i said i make not alot, considering paying out to feed my other dogs, the washing machine on 24/7 feeding the litters and vet checks, etc, toys, it cost neally 350 at my vets to get a litter of 6 or more to have vacs injections etc... £190 i pay every month on electric and thats not including water bills,


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> down my way if you have less then 4 litters a year you do not have to declare any thing to the tax man


If you're in the UK you have to declare ALL income to the tax man! the number of litters you have is irrelevant. I assume you are confusing it with requiring a local authority licence to breed, which varies from council to council, but in many areas only applies if you have 4 or more litters a year.


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## andrea1983 (Feb 11, 2011)

twice a year every 6 months approx that really sound like a buisness, der


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

andrea1983 said:


> breeding does not always go to plan, you have quiet momments where you don't see a dime coming in, then busy momments, you have to make the money last to the next litter which is any where between 4months to 6 months


 try 21 months since my last litter and probably at LEAST another 8 months unless my bitch has actually caught from two slip matings

Most of us WORK to pay for our litters, I certainly wouldn't expect any income I get from a litter to cover anything more than I've paid out - if it does (which it hasn't so far) - then fantastic - I breed only when I want a pup - if I was breeding that often, I'd have nowhere to put them  and my poor girls would never get a break :


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> twice a year every 6 months approx that really sound like a buisness, der


I was trying to be tactful.

What are your reasons for breeding then?


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## andrea1983 (Feb 11, 2011)

ok your being tactful, i got confussed and yes i do claim to mr taxman, my resons for breeding to expaned my own lines, any way this hole thread is about are breeders wanting to make money, my first post was answering that, and the answer for my self no, if i do bonus.


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> If you're in the UK you have to declare ALL income to the tax man! the number of litters you have is irrelevant. I assume you are confusing it with requiring a local authority licence to breed, which varies from council to council, but in many areas only applies if you have 4 or more litters a year.


As far as I'm aware Rocco is correct. You might not owe anything but it would till need to be declared what money you have received. You should also keep records of all expenditures and all income. If you don't all it would take is for you to rub someone up the wrong way. Anyone could drop a call to the tax man and you'd never know about it until they come knocking on your door.


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