# "traditional" dog-training: current practitioners



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

a fellow-trainer asked, _"Does the term Traditional Training mean the same today as it did yesterday? "_

IMO, Yes - which is why it is called *traditional*.

In the past, traditional trainers coerced dogs into performing tasks, rather than teach them how to perform them.
dogs learned by being yanked, pulled & jerked; pull upward on the leash to sit, yank a dog into Heel position, 
pull downward on the lead to Down - it seemed dogs were corrected during the entire training process.

This is how our group-class was taught with a choke-collar - for a sit, it was lift the collar & wait, for down, 
pull downward & wait, jerk in short repeated cues to get the dog into HEEL position, etc; the corrections were near-constant.

fast-forward & things have not changed much in traditional training - which is, of course, why we call it that.  
the Koehler method & similar, plus remarkably similar if not identical to Barb Woodhouse, is still found all over the USA - 
they use no MARKERS *a-k-a* clickers, no food-lures, no toys - unless a bumper, glove, dumbbell, etc is a *toy*.

Dog Management Systems FAQ sheet:

Trainers List - 
Trainers List

pattern of learning 
2005 - QUOTE, 
_"Read the old William Koehler books. William Koehler is the model-T of the dog training world. I read them when 
I was 16 and thought they were the cats ass."_ [Leerburg] 
------------------------------------------------

Sit Means Sit | Dog Training| Dog Trainers | Dogs Training Collars | Dog Training Schools | Hassen, Koehler and E-Collars 
Sit Means S*it - QUOTE, 
_"About the author: Captain Haggerty started using remote-collars nearly 40 years ago. At that time he didnt 
particularly care for them. The improvements in the ensuing years has caused him to fall in love with them  
but he still doesnt use them on all dogs.
(As published in Off Lead Magazine, November 2001)" _
------------------------------

copyright 2003 - 
Dog Training For You - Vana Ingram

shock-collars - 
E-Collars

Wagner-k9 
Professional Dog Obedience Training -The Beginning

traditional training - 4pawsU 
Traditional Dog Training Methods and Behavior Problems

MSGDA resources [hunting retrievers] - 
MSGDA Training Resources
authors - QUOTE, 
----------------------- 
Monks of New Skete
Dean Grand
Charles Morgan 
Ann Fowler
Randy Acker, D.V.M. & Jim Fergus
Charlie Jurney
Richard A. Wolters and Dave Meisner
Richard A. Wolters and John W. Randolph
Joan Bailey
Bill Tarrant
William R. Koehler
Clarice Rutherford & Cherylon Loveland
Robert Miners
Jim Spencer
Adam G. Katz
Evan Graham
John & Amy Dahl
D.L. Walters & Ann Walters
Jerome B. Robinson
James Lamb Free 
Jim Dobbs & Phyllis Dobbs
Art Smith
Tom Quinn

Amazon.com: No Bad Dogs: The Woodhouse Way (9780671541859): Barbara Woodhouse: Books 
No Bad Dogs: The Woodhouse Way [pubd 1982]

dog training techniques explained, Rodrigo Trigosso
Dog Training Techniques Explained

traditional is not UNLIKE its predecessor - traditional is LIKE its predecessor, & it is not gone; there are plenty of websites 
advertising training which brag that they use NO FOOD in training, & explain that it is a BRIBE.

cheers, 
- terry


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> a fellow-trainer asked, "Does the term Traditional Training mean the same today as it did yesterday? "
> 
> In the past, traditional trainers coerced dogs into performing tasks, rather than teach them how to perform them.
> dogs learned by being yanked, pulled & jerked; pull upward on the leash to sit, yank a dog into Heel position,
> pull downward on the lead to Down - it seemed dogs were corrected during the entire training process.


But why mislead whoever asked you?

You forgot to list Herr Conrad Most who was the first I know of who said dogs should be trained with rewards (NOT the Skinner meaning) in his book 'Training Dogs, a Manual', he also used voice inflextions for the same reasons that Skinner used clicker technology some 28 years later and is suspect of being influenced by Herr Most to create his operant theory of learning.

There is abundant footage of Hitler in the 1940's useing balls to train his dog to jump scale & other jumps and retreive the ball. Clickers were in common use with circus dogs in 1940's 50's as well as balls, ordinary pet owners sometimes used them in 1950's probably copied from when the circus came to town, clickers then were called crickets made of tin & usually in the shape of insects, frogs etc, they were a common toy & used in the WW2 D-Day landings as an identity communication device.

Treat reinforcement training was the most common method as seen in these images covering the early part of the 19th century & late 1950's. Treats, toys, clickers, vocal inflexions are well understood, they have been used exhaustively some for many, many centuries, equally well known and of priority importance are the limitations of all methods & the aids used to apply the methods.

Its all old hat although attempts have been made to copy the methods & sell them to pet owners as something 'new'.

Positive Training, Documented Images, Early 19th mid 20th century
YouTube - The 'Positive' 'Modern' Training, Commercial Con Trick Exposed, Historical Images Blows The Myth

Herr Conrad Most, 1910, 'Training Dogs, a Manual'

.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

You'll be calling Cesar traditional next


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Its all old hat although attempts have been made to copy the methods & sell them to pet owners as something 'new'.
> 
> Positive Training, Documented Images, Early 19th mid 20th century
> YouTube - The 'Positive' 'Modern' Training, Commercial Con Trick Exposed, Historical Images Blows The Myth


Well you are right about one thing, verbal praising as feedback or tricks for treats is not new. But the propoganda is even less subtle than usual.

The reason why rewards based training courses are so popular in the UK, is because it generally works very well for people, who do try it and they often go to follow on classes, rather than put the dog through 1 course, because dog & owner enjoy it.

It is "new" compared to what most dog owners grew up with, because of the emphasis on engaging dog in positive activity, rather than trying to punish "bad" behaviour. Traditional techniques tend to involve lots of confusing scolding of the dog, or indirect communication via leash checks and such. Your one sided disinformation fails completely, suggesting a base of ignorance, rather than knowledge.

That there's a lunatic fringe grinding axes is no suprise on the net. Quite what the psychological motivations are, for the people who fundamentally object to reinforcing wanted behaviour, and seek to negatively attack a very successful proven technique is a question for the psychologists, if not actually psychiatrists.


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