# Veganism is a privilege, not accessible to all



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

An interesting listen that looks at veganism in context to the problems, in RL, of the socio-economic climate today (only a couple of minutes long)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/clip/9bd523ab-3556-4439-8344-3b850e0be9ff


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It looks as though it’s going to be controversial, then she says her last sentence. 

She’s not saying it’s a privilege, but she is saying there are a number of things that need addressing to make a plant based diet an accessible option for all, which is quite true imo. I agree with the young lady.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sounds like a sensible PoV to me. TBH though its not just veganism her points apply to...you could interchange any kind of healthy diet and the same points would still be relevant.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I don't disagree with anything she is saying, nor for that matter do I think everyone needs to adopt a 100% vegan diet. I eat mostly vegan, I don't purposefully eat anything animal based except honey (locally sourced from a co-worker, I supply the containers etc.). But I don't by any means think that is the only way to eat ethically, humanely, or sustainably. 

We do need to do away with factory farming, that is non-negotiable, and I don't think anyone disputes that. 
We do need to do away with highly processed, preserved, packaged food-like stuffs. 
We need to look at how our food is sourced, vegan or not. Just one example, palm-oil is vegan but not healthy and an environmental disaster. A vegan label does not guarantee health or ethics. 

All that said, I do have to laugh at the notion that eating vegan is expensive or for the privileged few. I grew up in a time and place where meat and dairy products were considered a luxury item. Heck, meat was too precious to feed to dogs. They got the offal. 
A friend just spent some time in Nicaragua on a mission trip, and most of her meals were beans, rice, and fresh fruits and vegetables that grow everywhere. Chicken from time to time, but the staple of her diet was beans and rice. She joked about how well I would have eaten there. Yup. Good old peasant food. 

I spend far less feeding a family of four (with two active teenagers who eat obscene amounts of food) for far less than any other equal family that I know (yes, we moms talk about our grocery bills). Mine is a good 200 to 400 a month less than other moms I talk to. And it doesn't take me any more time to shop or prepare meals. 

Part of the problem is, the idea of eating a vegan diet is so foreign to most people that it does become an impossibility. For the people my friend stayed with in Nicaragua, eating vegan wouldn't mean much change at all. But for the average American or Brit it's a huge adjustment, and I very much agree with the video, we need to address those barriers and support people, not shame them.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

We need the food to be in the shops in the first place. Not everyone can access a shop that stocks much fresh produce unfortunately. Of course, if the shops don’t stock it, people get used to doing without it and unaccustomed to it, the shops need it to be popular to sell before it goes off, it isn’t, so they don’t stock it. And so it goes on. It’s easier for shops to stock produce that has a shelf life.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Elles said:


> We need the food to be in the shops in the first place. Not everyone can access a shop that stocks much fresh produce unfortunately. Of course, if the shops don't stock it, people get used to doing without it and unaccustomed to it, the shops need it to be popular to sell before it goes off, it isn't, so they don't stock it. And so it goes on. It's easier for shops to stock produce that has a shelf life.


Plus you actually need to like eating it!  I've yet to have a vegan meal where I'd go back for seconds.

I'm not sure why, but either they seem very bland and unsatisfying to eat (from a taste experience point of view, not how full you feel afterwards), or they are at the other end of the flavour strength spectrum and beat you around the tastebuds with masses of strong herbs, spices and/or other potent flavours - none of which I can stand. Plus the textures of the various vegan 'meat alternatives' (aside from large field mushrooms that seem to be used a burger substitutes sometimes) I also have... issues with.

Don't get me wrong, I've been eating a lot less meat in recent months, and there are plenty of veggie options I like, but the vegan versions alwayts fall well short of the mark so far.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> All that said, I do have to laugh at the notion that eating vegan is expensive or for the privileged few.


yup, it really isnt. Not too difficult to get giant sacks of rice and beans and base most of your meals around that! Of course you might find it more tricky to have a completely nutritionally balanced diet but then again the people that girl was talking about (poor, uneducated, orthorexic, etc) probably have unbalanced diets now! At least with a vegan/mostly vegan diet you are also helping animals, the planet and reducing your risk for alot of conditions.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

The food I ate during the Refugee Ration Challenge was mostly vegan. Rice, beans, chickpeas, lentils, vegetable oil and flour. The only non-vegan item was one tin of sardines. That's what refugees have to live off in a week. It cost under £4 for the week, and that's with many of the items coming in bigger bags than the allowed "ration". In a healthy balanced diet, though, the portions of beans/legumes would be bigger and there would be a good amount of fresh fruit and veg added in.

Fresh fruit and veg can be expensive, especially if you're committed to buying organic. But it does depend what (and how much variety) you're buying. And I'd argue that they're one of the mainstays of any healthy diet, be it vegan, veggie or omnivore.

I eat meat, but it's always been my philosophy to make a little go a long way. For example, 250g mince will make two meals for my family of five. That's not because I'm particularly trying to buy less meat - it's because meat's expensive! And I imagine the same would go for vegan meat substitutes.

But for those who rely on food banks and don't have the luxury of choice, then yes, veganism is a privilege. For those struggling to work full-time and also care for their kids, cooking from scratch may not be an option. For those who are struggling to afford the basics to feed and clothe their kids, organic food and plastic-free packaging are unattainable ideals. For those who live in substandard accommodation with no laundry facilities, reusable nappies and menstrual products are impractical.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Jesthar said:


> Plus you actually need to like eating it!  I've yet to have a vegan meal where I'd go back for seconds.


Thats the beauty of it though. Very few people eat meals that are 100% based on animal products (well, except some looneys you see on Youtube!), most meals are 50% or much less meat/fish based. This means that everybody already enjoys a diet that is over half vegan!



NaomiM said:


> For those who are struggling to afford the basics to feed and clothe their kids, organic food and plastic-free packaging are unattainable ideals. For those who live in substandard accommodation with no laundry facilities, reusable nappies and menstrual products are impractical.


Thankfully none of that has anything to do with veganism. If it did, Id be a huge failure. :Shy


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'd definitely have nutritional deficiencies if I went vegan, probably would if I went veggy too. I can't eat nuts, really can't eat too many pulses, most make me want to heave and I'm not keen on many bean varieties. I also don't like highly flavoured food and Curry is totally YUK
.Would Leave me to eat rather flavourless non nutritional meals


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Thankfully none of that has anything to do with veganism. If it did, Id be a huge failure. :Shy


Just extrapolating a bit as veganism and environmental issues are often interlinked 

The reason I mentioned it is because I support a community food bank and also a local project supplying essentials to refugees and asylum seekers. Some well-meaning folks have taken issue with the fact that both of these projects provide single-use projects such as nappies and wipes, and food/toiletries in plastic packaging. The charities' responses have been along the lines that, while, yes, those who are able to shop in a more sustainable way ought to do so, for people living in poverty this often isn't an option, sadly.

I admit I didn't watch the video above as I dislike clicking video links, but from the title and discussion I assumed that it deals with similar issues


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

rona said:


> I'd definitely have nutritional deficiencies if I went vegan, probably would if I went veggy too. I can't eat nuts, really can't eat too many pulses, most make me want to heave and I'm not keen on many bean varieties. I also don't like highly flavoured food and Curry is totally YUK
> .Would Leave me to eat rather flavourless non nutritional meals


I thought the same, but recently I have found a recipe for homemade falafels and another for kidney bean burgers that are actually really nice and have made it onto my regular "to cook" list  I still don't think I could do totally vegan - especially as I looooooove dairy and cheese in particular, and also eggs - but I have to say that there are more nice-tasting vegan foods than I'd have thought!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

NaomiM said:


> The charities' responses have been along the lines that, while, yes, those who are able to shop in a more sustainable way ought to do so, for people living in poverty this often isn't an option, sadly.


Sounds like a sensible approach. I think we all have a responsibility to do the best we can when it comes to reducing our waste and getting rid of factory farming and animal cruelty but that doesnt mean that the end results will be the same for everybody. Alot of us still take the easy option though.
Im currently using up the last of my disposable cleaning cloths before I move onto ones I can wash and reuse....however if Im cleaning up dog poop or sick then sorry, its gonna be paper towels!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

I also think those, like me, forget that tinned fruit and veg has come a long way, and, as long as its not been processed with salt and suger, it can be nutritious and healthy
Plus dried fruit, although high in sugars, due to concentrating of the fruit, there's so much choice nowadays and, of course, again its healthy
There are so many different tinned fruit and veg nowadays, not just the old carrots, peas, corn and potatoes, or peaches, fruit cocktail or pears
I'm on a real budget as I'm on ESA,
but
I picked up heart of palm, jackfruit, jars of artichokes, semi sundried tomatoes, peppers, guava, melon, rhubarb etc, for my last foodbank shop (thought I'd donate some 'different' items) and although less in amount, and a little more than I normally spend, (normally value stuff, its amazing how much you can get for £20, which is my monthly donation) it wasn't that much of a shock
Maybe I ought to donate a vegan bag every other month, instead of just omni bags


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

NaomiM said:


> But for those who rely on food banks and don't have the luxury of choice, then yes, veganism is a privilege. For those struggling to work full-time and also care for their kids, cooking from scratch may not be an option.


See, again, I would argue that it really depends on what you're used to, and that individual's environment and circumstances.

I'm in the rural US, the area I'm in has a very high poverty rate. It's also a very fertile region with a long growing season. Even the poorest of the poor often have some room for a garden and grow tomatoes, okra, zucchini, peppers.... Many yards will have pecan trees, fig trees that have been there for generations. 
Even those who don't have a vegetable garden, or don't have the time to tend one, can get free or very inexpensive vegetables and fruits from neighbors or local stands.

As for time, I came home today after working all day, tired, very hungry, and was instantly accosted by two hungry teenagers. 
I do keep canned (tinned) food on hand, and with two cans of lentils, two cans of crushed tomatoes, heated them up in less than 5 minutes, added spices, and wilted some fresh spinach in, poured over rice I already had made in the fridge (heated up in microwave), I had dinner for 4 people on the table in less than 10 minutes for a monetary cost of less than $7. Clean up was one pot and the dishes we ate off. 
Now, granted, the fast food pizza joint has a special of one large cheese pizza for $5 plus tax, but I have a teenage son who can eat an entire large pizza all by himself. The rice and lentils hold him much better. 

But again, I'm very used to cooking this way. It's second nature to me to soak beans, throw a pot of rice to cook when I have a moment, so we have it made and ready, keep frozen veggies in the fridge, canned things for quick meals.... But even things I take time to cook rarely take longer than 30 minutes if that. I don't like spending a lot of time in the kitchen, I'd rather be eating :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> See, again, I would argue that it really depends on what you're used to, and that individual's environment and circumstances.
> 
> I'm in the rural US, the area I'm in has a very high poverty rate. It's also a very fertile region with a long growing season. Even the poorest of the poor often have some room for a garden and grow tomatoes, okra, zucchini, peppers.... Many yards will have pecan trees, fig trees that have been there for generations.
> Even those who don't have a vegetable garden, or don't have the time to tend one, can get free or very inexpensive vegetables and fruits from neighbors or local stands.
> ...


You live in an idyllic bubble. Life for many poor are far far away from that


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> You live in an idyllic bubble. Life for many poor are far far away from that


I don't know that the poor people here or in other areas where food grows easily would call it idyllic LOL
I'm just pointing out that for many people, growing or accessing fresh food is not as hard as the 'veganism is a privilege' argument would make it out to be.

Arguably, those saying how 'hard' veganism is are living in a bubble in that they don't realize that most poor people worldwide do in fact eat far less meat than privileged Europeans and Americans. And none of the truly poor outside of Europe and the US are eating factory farmed meat which is the real issue.

As @NaomiM pointed out, the ration challenge was essentially vegan minus one tin of sardines. That's not privileged living.

I lived in developing countries for most of my youth. Being vegan or mostly vegan wasn't considered a privilege, it was a normal week.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Of course it is for some. I've taken Hackney just as an example.
Your JSA is £73 a week, the cheapest room I found was £150 a week and a very rough guide on Veg cost would be £9 for a small selection of Potatoes, green cabbage, a few carrot, Broccoli and about 5 mushrooms.* There no green space in which to grow.*

It's all fine, even if you could cook it, What do you cook it on and how do you even afford the electricity.
I have always lived where I could grow, and have given excess to neighbours, I've always managed to keep my head above water even though I'm poor, but I know there are many many in this country that just haven't the chance. I find it quite insulting to those struggling to survive for anyone to say that they could do it if they tried. It shows you do not understand what it is to be truly poor in a modern world


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

This isn't a complete shopping list by any means, but it shows a selection of fresh and dried food from a reasonably priced supermarket. It would most certainly make a huge dent in someone's benefits.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Okay, it seems I'm talking apples and others are talking oranges.
I'm talking about parts of the world where nobody is shopping at a supermarket. For that matter, supermarkets are a privilege! 

If we're going to accuse people of living in a bubble, perhaps acknowledge that living in a first world country like the UK, no matter how poor you are, is indeed a bubble in itself. The majority of the world's population of poor people do not live in first world countries, are not shopping at supermarkets, and wish they could afford to eat meat, but can't. 

So yes, it does sound odd from that perspective to hear vegan fare like rice and beans talked about like it's some sort of high brow fare. It's not. It's peasant food. 

And just to add, vegan food is not 'fruits and veggies' realistically, a sustainable vegan diet is grain based. Much like what humanity has eaten for most of it's existence. Rice in Asia, potatoes in the Andes, corn in other parts of the Americas, wheat, barley, oats in Europe. If you think the average 17th century European peasant was eating a high meat diet, they weren't. They were eating porridge, bread, leeks and potatoes, with occasional meat added in for flavor.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You want everyone to live like a peasant in ye olde days, or people on the ration challenge? :Hilarious

That'll encourage more to go plant based.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Okay, it seems I'm talking apples and others are talking oranges.
> I'm talking about parts of the world where nobody is shopping at a supermarket. For that matter, supermarkets are a privilege!
> 
> If we're going to accuse people of living in a bubble, perhaps acknowledge that living in a first world country like the UK, no matter how poor you are, is indeed a bubble in itself. The majority of the world's population of poor people do not live in first world countries, are not shopping at supermarkets, and wish they could afford to eat meat, but can't.
> ...


Problem is, none of this changes the current fact that buying fresh fruit and veg is significantly more expensive in the UK than buying low quality, meat containing ready meals.

Rice doesn't grow in the UK, it is imported. A lot of our grain, pulses, legumes and fresh veg are imported too - we can't physically grow enough to feed the UK population ourselves (not even if we turned over all availalbe acreage to 'peasant food'), we are reliant on food imports. Many modern houses, the garden is only a few yards square.. I'm lucky, mine is 56 feet long and 12 feet wide!

So that which works in the US can't work over here, unfortunately.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

The average family of the "middling sort" ate a *diet based largely on meat, fish and bread. *Vegetables were not as prominent a part of the *diet* as today. *Meat*, poultry and fish were prepared in a variety of ways: roasted, fried, boiled or baked in pies. Fruits were cooked both separately and with meats.








https://www.plimoth.org › files › pdf
*Raising Children in the Early 17th Century: Diet - Plimoth Plantation*

Most 'peasant' people were smallholders who would keep cattle, pigs,goats etc arable farming was not prominent at the time, but a small amount of garden veg would be grown, barley and grain was far more important as horse feed, any left may,ve been used by the humans to stretch the meals
what fruit and veg that were available were season dependent, and highly unlikely to be 'marketable' hence why rickets etc was rife in towns but not in countryside
It wasn't til the enclosure act in the 18c that large farms, as we recognise them now, came about

Europe has a much earlier documented history than USA, including farming history, but had a much more restricted ability, in the past, to grow the amount and variety that the USA had


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The people the video is talking about and aimed at aren't living in the backwoods of America with fertile land to grow their own, they're living in a city high rise where a supermarket and what it stocks is their only choice. The girl in the video wants accessibility and education and I totally agree with her.

You're always talking about how cheap and wonderful it is for you and yeah, we're envious. My local shop has 3 aisles of sweets and snacks and not even one of vegetables and doesn't sell rice etc.

For variation and local in season food, or organic I need to go to farm shops that are a few miles away and extremely expensive, I visit as the occasional treat, but even I can't afford to live on their produce.

https://www.dartsfarm.co.uk/general/food-drink.html

This is what organic, local and in season is to me. It's very expensive 'artisan'.  It's not cheap and cheerful. Cheap and cheerful is Tesco or Lidl. ie supermarket.

Have you ever been to England?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Elles said:


> You're always talking about how cheap and wonderful it is for you and yeah, we're envious. My local shop has 3 aisles of sweets and snacks and not even one of vegetables and doesn't sell rice etc.


You know, this brings back memories of my Orlando trip a couple of years back. In three visits to WalMart (and the size alone of them is gobsmacking), I don't think we ever found the veg aisle! Definitely found the sweets and snacks aisle, though - 1.3 kilo bag of Skittles, anyone?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Lidl is cheap and cheerful and also can be very good for vegetables, even organic and UK grown  and if you happen to be around when their £1.50 boxes are laid out, they are brilliant.

You can't talk about a European diet as one thing in the preceding centuries because local conditions vary so much - some areas could only grow brassicas, and then there is Italy.....some areas had really well enforced hunting restrictions, enclosure and the like, and others had much more open land rights. Even cooking and preparation techniques are localised - yeast doesn't rise well in the cold and damp, food doesn't dry in the sun everywhere, and without cold temparatures salt becomes a very valuable preservative. Beans/peas were grown in the UK and were important in our diet, and bread that we would probably not recognise as edible was also part of it. 

We need to look at food security and supporting ourselves with food grown in this country for all sorts of reasons - that means changing our landscape, and having fields of beans and quinoa instead of cows, and it also means eating less, and less variety, and eating seasonally, and being willing to do it. We will need to learn to cook and eat well as a nation, and might need to discuss eating in larger groups (think canteens in the war years or medieval halls) for economies of scale. It can't be done overnight but change is happening. We can buy British quinoa, beans, peas, grains and lentils and as time moves on the crop reliability and quality is improving and that will bring prices down.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> Lidl is cheap and cheerful and also can be very good for vegetables, even organic and UK grown  and if you happen to be around when their £1.50 boxes are laid out, they are brilliant.
> 
> You can't talk about a European diet as one thing in the preceding centuries because local conditions vary so much - some areas could only grow brassicas, and then there is Italy.....some areas had really well enforced hunting restrictions, enclosure and the like, and others had much more open land rights. Even cooking and preparation techniques are localised - yeast doesn't rise well in the cold and damp, food doesn't dry in the sun everywhere, and without cold temparatures salt becomes a very valuable preservative. Beans/peas were grown in the UK and were important in our diet, and bread that we would probably not recognise as edible was also part of it.
> 
> We need to look at food security and supporting ourselves with food grown in this country for all sorts of reasons - that means changing our landscape, and having fields of beans and quinoa instead of cows, and it also means eating less, and less variety, and eating seasonally, and being willing to do it. We will need to learn to cook and eat well as a nation, and might need to discuss eating in larger groups (think canteens in the war years or medieval halls) for economies of scale. It can't be done overnight but change is happening. We can buy British quinoa, beans, peas, grains and lentils and as time moves on the crop reliability and quality is improving and that will bring prices down.


Of course not everyone can get to the cheaper Lidl and Aldi but if you can they do sometimes stock good stuff I agree with that. 

The changes you're talking about are accessibility and education and I agree totally.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Aldi were selling cherries for under £1 the other week I nearly fainted they are £4 in Tesco !


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> You're always talking about how cheap and wonderful it is for you and yeah, we're envious. My local shop has 3 aisles of sweets and snacks and not even one of vegetables and doesn't sell rice etc.


Are you sure you werent standing in a sweet shop!?:Hilarious

Not sure where you are in England but most places have an accessible supermarket, even if its online shopping. Local shops are total hit and miss round my way, its mainly for bread, milk, ciggies, booze and scratchcards!
Why does it have to be all organic and seasonal anyways?? Nowt wrong with value range tinned and frozen fruit and veg from Aldi or Tesco!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Are you sure you werent standing in a sweet shop!?:Hilarious
> 
> Not sure where you are in England but most places have an accessible supermarket, even if its online shopping. Local shops are total hit and miss round my way, its mainly for bread, milk, ciggies, booze and scratchcards!
> Why does it have to be all organic and seasonal anyways?? Nowt wrong with value range tinned and frozen fruit and veg from Aldi or Tesco!


Because that's what is being suggested as cheap and available if we only made the (minimal) effort? You've just confirmed what I said. Knocking up nutritious vegan meals for the whole family isn't necessarily cheap and easy. The video suggests that it should be, but there needs to be accessibility and education. It's supposed to be organic, seasonal and local to save the planet. Do you live on value range tinned and frozen fruit and veg from Tesco or Aldi?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> We can buy British quinoa, beans, peas, grains and lentils and as time moves on the crop reliability and quality is improving and that will bring prices down.


Except this year the harvest will be a bit of a failure because it started raining just at the wrong time and there's millions of acres still uncut.
Of course prices will go up but no one will put it down to the weather................


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> It's supposed to be organic, seasonal and local to save the planet. Do you live on value range tinned and frozen fruit and veg from Tesco or Aldi?


I buy plenty of value range tinned and frozen veg, I actually prefer it to some of the pricier stuff. Also wonky veg or stuff thats cheap coz its on its sell by date. All good healthy nutritious options and dont cost alot.
I think you are getting hung up on the 'perfect' diet which granted, many people cant afford or dont have access to. But just because you cant do everything perfectly that doesnt mean you should just ignore the whole thing does it? 
How is basing your meals around rice, pasta or potatoes expensive? Small changes are better then no changes at all.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I have an organic veg box, grow veg too and our shopping bills are reduced thanks to not eating meat (but not completely vegan). My food bills reduced mostly because we don't use supermarkets and buy bulk dried goods too. 

I can see that there are barriers to cost but I wonder how much of it is down to poor meal planning and buying? I know I was terrible at planning food at the times when I needed to be wiser. I'm not totally buying the argument from this person in the video, at her age I was living in a flat, buying veg on my way home from work at the market as it was reduced to sell, bulking cooking and freezing it. No meat. I learned to cook though I can't recall the meals being very nice but they were cheap and nutritious. 

I think that barriers can be removed for some demographics with practical skills that aren't taught anymore, but I've started to volunteer at a community kitchen which relies on donate goods and realise that anyone reliant on these service doesn't always have a choice so I'm not a place to comment on that and recognise my privilege.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

This is a good book - contains vegan and veggie stuff made from cans. I don't have an issue with canned food and keep it as back-up. 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tin-Can-Cook-Store-cupboard-Recipes/dp/1529015286


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Since most tinned food, especially value tinned food is very high in salt and often sugar, I do question the wisdom of choosing these options. As someone who is diabetic and on statins, tinned food of any description is not recommended, certainly not in high quantity. As there are millions more people in the same situation as myself, we all need fresh produce or frozen at least. I’m fortunate in that I can afford to buy it, but there are many more who can’t afford it but have the same health issues. Although, I also shop around to try and find the cheapest fruit and veg. 

A diet of rice, potatoes, lentils and beans might be cheap, but not exactly well balanced and quite frankly, boring as hell. People in the past may have had no choice but to survive on those foods, but we don’t live in the past. We are used to having more choice. Encouraging people to be vegan by telling them we are going to take away the wide choice of food you currently have, simply isn’t going to work. I eat vegetarian meals, but I need a wide variety of fruit and veg to make it interesting or I just wouldn’t stick to it and doubt many would.

If people are going to change, you need more than just education, you need to sell it to them as a better option. They have to want to do it. Knowing take away food is bad for you, doesn’t stop millions of people eating it, so education is pointless. We all know so much more about nutrition today than previous generations, but we have more obesity issues and diet related health issues than any of our ancestors. Nothing I have read on this thread so far has sold veganism to me.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I buy plenty of value range tinned and frozen veg, I actually prefer it to some of the pricier stuff. Also wonky veg or stuff thats cheap coz its on its sell by date. All good healthy nutritious options and dont cost alot.
> I think you are getting hung up on the 'perfect' diet which granted, many people cant afford or dont have access to. But just because you cant do everything perfectly that doesnt mean you should just ignore the whole thing does it?
> How is basing your meals around rice, pasta or potatoes expensive? Small changes are better then no changes at all.


What are you on lol. I eat plant based, I'm not getting hung up on anything. I watched a video and agreed with it. The video, if you watched it, said plant based needs to be more accessible and people need educating on it. Which is true. It's not that accessible for everyone and yeah it's cheap if you can walk to a Lidl, but if you need a taxi to Tesco, or to pay to have food delivered, it's not so much, especially if you have no idea what to buy. Not all supermarkets or shops are equal and not everyone knows what to eat, or how to cook it.

It gets a bit much when vegans go on about how cheap and easy it is. That might be their experience, it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Since most tinned food, especially value tinned food is very high in salt and often sugar, I do question the wisdom of choosing these options. As someone who is diabetic and on statins, tinned food of any description is not recommended, certainly not in high quantity. As there are millions more people in the same situation as myself, we all need fresh produce or frozen at least. I'm fortunate in that I can afford to buy it, but there are many more who can't afford it but have the same health issues. Although, I also shop around to try and find the cheapest fruit and veg.
> 
> A diet of rice, potatoes, lentils and beans might be cheap, but not exactly well balanced and quite frankly, boring as hell. People in the past may have had no choice but to survive on those foods, but we don't live in the past. We are used to having more choice. Encouraging people to be vegan by telling them we are going to take away the wide choice of food you currently have, simply isn't going to work. I eat vegetarian meals, but I need a wide variety of fruit and veg to make it interesting or I just wouldn't stick to it and doubt many would.
> 
> If people are going to change, you need more than just education, you need to sell it to them as a better option. They have to want to do it. Knowing take away food is bad for you, doesn't stop millions of people eating it, so education is pointless. We all know so much more about nutrition today than previous generations, but we have more obesity issues and diet related health issues than any of our ancestors. Nothing I have read on this thread so far has sold veganism to me.


Education doesn't just mean slapped wrists for eating a cream cake, it means education on what is tasty, healthy and moreish too. :Hungry


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> How is basing your meals around rice, pasta or potatoes expensive? Small changes are better then no changes at all.


Its not expensive, but its not nutritious or balanced either.
Yes
It will keep you alive,
But
Would it be a life worth living?

Also
For people like me it would be a killer
I now have to, under hospital guidance, have a very low carbohydrate diet, with minimal sodium and no sugar or aspartame , that last is a kicker as it is (this is not a keto fad diet)


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> Education doesn't just mean slapped wrists for eating a cream cake, it means education on what is tasty, healthy and moreish too. :Hungry


True but that also forms part of the marketing too, so like I said education alone is insufficient.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Its not expensive, but its not nutritious or balanced either.
> Yes
> It will keep you alive,
> But
> ...


I am also about to have an operation which will lead me to having to eat a low carbohydrate diet, which will be supervised by the NHS for the rest of my life.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

I’ve been reading a lot about B12 deficiency as it’s a condition that I have. Every article I’ve read has said that B12d is either through a vegan diet or a stomach/ bowel condition (such as Pernicious Anaemia or bowel surgery) . Since B12d is potentially fatal this is very worrying. B12d from a diet lack can take a few years to show symptoms so people won’t know they have a problem for a long, long time.

I hope that vegans/ vegetarians are better educated in nutrition than I fear. I do believe things have improved in the last few years.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> Problem is, none of this changes the current fact that buying fresh fruit and veg is significantly more expensive in the UK than buying low quality, meat containing ready meals.


Okay, but a vegan diet isn't, or doesn't have to be "fresh fruit and veg." Yes, fresh fruit and veggies are nice, but you can eat very healthfully and cheaply with minimal fresh fruit and vegetables using alternatives. Frozen veggies, tinned foods (yes there are low/no salt varieties), dried or frozen fruits. There are options. 
Not the healthiest, but when I was a poor college student I was vegetarian and ended up mostly vegan simply because I couldn't afford cheese. Pasta and rice I could get cheap and eat enough to fill me up. No, not ideal, but not exactly the high brow fare that most associate with a vegan diet either. 


Jesthar said:


> So that which works in the US can't work over here, unfortunately.


I never suggested it would. I was just sharing my experiences.



Elles said:


> You're always talking about how cheap and wonderful it is for you and yeah, we're envious. My local shop has 3 aisles of sweets and snacks and not even one of vegetables and doesn't sell rice etc.


Oh wow, well I'm obviously giving much the wrong impression. 
I'm not trying to make anyone envious. I'm just putting forth my experience that this idea the vegan = privileged and expensive is the complete opposite of my experience. BTW, not just in the US, but also in the very poor countries I lived with growing up.
I know I'm not in the UK, and this is a UK mainly forum, but I figured my experience also matters. 

I'll leave it there. Obviously I'm not coming across the way I intend so best leave it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Not the healthiest, but when I was a poor college student I was vegetarian and ended up mostly vegan simply because I couldn't afford cheese. Pasta and rice I could get cheap and eat enough to fill me up. No, not ideal, but not exactly the high brow fare that most associate with a vegan diet either.


Tell me again why you should eat crap with no nutrients against crap with nutrients?

Pulses, dried fruit and particularly nuts are much much more expensive than fresh veg. Where would the nutrients come from?

Since it became fashionable to be vegan, cheap fillers have suddenly become expensive


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Tinned foods with no sugar or salt added are very limited.

In fact, a quick look through Tesco’s vegetables I found no added salt sweet corn and no added salt and sugar baked beans. Only the beans were part of Tesco’s own brand cheaper option.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Jaf said:


> I've been reading a lot about B12 deficiency as it's a condition that I have. Every article I've read has said that B12d is either through a vegan diet or a stomach/ bowel condition (such as Pernicious Anaemia or bowel surgery) . Since B12d is potentially fatal this is very worrying. B12d from a diet lack can take a few years to show symptoms so people won't know they have a problem for a long, long time.
> 
> I hope that vegans/ vegetarians are better educated in nutrition than I fear. I do believe things have improved in the last few years.


B12 deficiency isnt just a vegan issue though. A study recently found that 39% of omnivores were low normal or deficient in B12, plus its recommended for everyone over 50 to take a B12 supplement (just like it is for vit D in the winter). In fact the majority of B12 supplements are not taken by humans but by farm animals! In other words we should all be supplementing or eating fortified foods.
It took me 2 minutes to Google that information....pretty sure that most people in the developed world have access to the internet (I know somebody will tell me that some people dont...but the majority do!).

Also I agree with @O2.0 is is easy to make filling and nutritious meals without animal products and on a budget. I was vegetarian throughout college due to a veggie room mate and lack of funds and made plenty of very tasty one pot meals with bulk bought dry staples and frozen.tinned veggies.
I just Googled Aldi too!:Woot £2.99 for a packet of mince, 70p for the same amount of tinned kidney beans (no sugar or salt added). How is it not cheaper to knock up a chilli with the beans!?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

If I have a vegetarian chilli, I want more than kidney beans in it! All I’m reading is how to be an unhealthy vegan with very little nutritional value in the food you eat. It’s nearly as bad as vegetarians who don’t eat vegetables.

Incidentally, I’m flexitarian. I love vegetable chilli. I pile it up with lots of different vegetables and it’s so good. Even hubby who hates vegetables loves it. I have to treat him like a kid and hide his veg in strong flavoured food.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I've been vegetarian since I was a kid. Vegetarian is not vegan. Chilli with tinned kidney beans is :Yuck I wouldn't touch it and synthetic supplements aren't a healthy and nutritious diet either.

I'm not saying that plant based can't be done, or that no omnivores are unhealthy, but it's not that easy imo.

Going from a relatively unhealthy vegetarian diet to whole food vegan wasn't easy and I'm totally convinced about it from the animal welfare stance if nothing else. People struggle to work out RAW for their dogs and cats, but it's apparently easy as pie to feed your kids a vegan diet when yesterday they had pepperoni pizza and you don't know what cous cous is, never heard of chia and yeast, nuts mean salted peanuts and pulses are what you can feel if you're alive.

Yeah most people have access to the Internet, they have access to dairy, fast food and advertising propaganda too. There are expert doctors and nutritionists on the Internet who can't agree, let alone influencers. At the moment we need to be convinced and dedicated. Going plant based isn't the norm and finding information isn't particularly easy unless you have at least some vague idea of what you're looking for.

Kids at uni can spend a few months living on less than an optimal diet, but the point isn't finding any filling crap so we don't feel hungry, the idea is to be healthier, enjoy our food and if we're skint, not have to spend a fortune, it can be done, but most people today wouldn't know where to start and that's a shame. Hence I agree with the video. I'm sorry @catz4m8z but your arguments wouldn't convince me. Being told I could survive on cheap crap at uni and open a tin of kidney beans isn't very encouraging imo. :Hilarious


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I googled B12 deficiency too and it said it was more likely to occur in people over 50 because we don’t absorb it as well as we age, as well as in people with medical issues. That is not widespread throughout every generation of meat eaters as your post suggests.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

I forgot to say: If you suspect that your B12 is low get a blood test before supplements. Your levels are skewed for at least 4 months.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> Tell me again why you should eat crap with no nutrients against crap with nutrients?


I wasn't telling anyone what they should eat.
And whole wheat pasta and whole grain rice is not crap with no nutrients *shrug*

If someone out there truly wants to figure out how to eat a whole food plant based diet, I'm willing to help them figure it out. Help figure out how to reduce the cost, how to make it less challenging, less work, easier. 
IF they want to. 
If they don't I'm totally cool with that too. 
I'm not out to tell anyone how they should eat, I'm just trying to be encouraging anyone who may be flirting with making some changes that it doesn't have to be as daunting as the naysayers make it out to be.

If you're happy with your diet, and see no reason to change anything, awesome. Not everyone is happy with their diet though. And if WFPB is something someone is interested in, I'm just trying to be a non-discouraging voice among the discouraging chorus that often surrounds these conversations.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I am currently in the process of separating from my hubby. He was a big meat eater. Since I'm only cooking for one I've got a bit lazy. I'm eating a lot of pasta and rice with salad. 

I did manage to get him to do a week vegan once and saved a fortune! It was all plant based and fresh. 

Tonight I'm making a chilli with lentils, peppers, chillies, tomatoes. It's tasty and last for days. 

Not buying meat has saved me a fortune. It is not the most exciting diet at the moment but certainly healthy. 

I think it really depends on your tastes and what you have been bought up on. Processed food is slightly addictive. Food that @02 is suggesting (rice beans some veg) would be cheaper than a processed or meat meal I'm sure. However i know my ex would have moaned he was hungry 10 minutes later as he was used to the meat.

I have attempted to go vegan but if I'm honest fall of the wagon when it comes to cheese. 

In conclusion I'm rambling it's and interesting theory. My sister is a very strict vegan and she is super tight and manages it without spending a lot.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I wasn't telling anyone what they should eat.
> And whole wheat pasta and whole grain rice is not crap with no nutrients *shrug*
> 
> If someone out there truly wants to figure out how to eat a whole food plant based diet, I'm willing to help them figure it out. Help figure out how to reduce the cost, how to make it less challenging, less work, easier.
> ...


Unfortunately though, you seem to be advocating eating a diet that is rich only in starch carbohydrates and proteins like beans and lentils, maybe I'm wrong, but you don't seem to include a wide variety of non starch vegetables, nuts and seeds. Without these being included, the diet you and another are suggesting has to be deficient in many vitamins and minerals, because the foods you have mentioned do not contain all that we need. Tinned foods have had many nutrients processed out of them. Whilst there are a few tinned fruit and vegetables available with no added sugar, the selection of vegetables here in the UK is not that great.

Telling people they can survive on beans, lentils and rice doesn't sell a vegetarian diet. I could survive on chocolate and crisps but both contain starch carbohydrates and protein but it doesn't make it healthy. We need fresh or frozen vegetables and lots of it.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> I am currently in the process of separating from my hubby. He was a big meat eater. Since I'm only cooking for one I've got a bit lazy. I'm eating a lot of pasta and rice with salad.
> 
> I did manage to get him to do a week vegan once and saved a fortune! It was all plant based and fresh.
> 
> ...


I would find it easier to be vegetarian if it wasn't for my hubby. He will never be veggie but he eats what I put in front of him so serving a vegetable dish sometimes I can get away with.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sacremist said:


> I would find it easier to be vegetarian if it wasn't for my hubby. He will never be veggie but he eats what I put in front of him so serving a vegetable dish sometimes I can get away with.


It's much easier on your own (not suggesting you get rid of hubby) realistically my ex would have a couple of meat free days but often I was making two meals. Also cooking for 1 it last longer but can be repetitive my chilli will last days.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> It's much easier on your own (not suggesting you get rid of hubby) realistically my ex would have a couple of meat free days but often I was making two meals. Also cooking for 1 it last longer but can be repetitive my chilli will last days.


Chilli is my hubby's favourite food, so I can stick what I want into it and leave out meat and he's happy because he loves the flavour.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> Unfortunately though, you seem to be advocating eating a diet that is rich only in starch carbohydrates and proteins like beans and lentils, maybe I'm wrong, but you don't seem to include a wide variety of non starch vegetables. Without these being included, the diet you and another are suggesting has to be deficient in many vitamins and minerals, because the foods you have mentioned do not contain all that we need. Tinned foods have had many nutrients processed out of them. Whilst there are a few tinned fruit and vegetables available with no added sugar, the selection of vegetables here in the UK is not that great.
> 
> Telling people they can survive on beans, lentils and rice doesn't sell a vegetarian diet. I could survive on chocolate and crisps but both contain starch carbohydrates and protein but it doesn't make it healthy. We need fresh or frozen vegetables and lots of it.


Are you interested in changing your diet and asking for my help or are you just looking to find fault in anything I say? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely asking because the fact that you're equating rice and beans to chocolate and crisps is... well, I don't know what to say to that. 

I grew up eating beans and rice. That is the diet of many people in Central America. It's a good, healthy diet that sustains entire populations. Yes, you add veggies and fruit, but the bulk of the diet is beans and rice. People survive just fine on it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It can be easier once you know what you’re doing, it is better for us and the planet and once our tastebuds (and bacteria) have got over the shock, the old, unhealthy stuff that we loved, suddenly seems cloying and disgusting. Start with the odd meal and see what you think? 

There’s recipes in rph’s thread, you can buy stuff that’s already made for you if you want to try a couple of things and it depends what’s locally available. Finding an alternative to milk in your tea or coffee is imho a good start. The plant based alternatives can be really nice and a lot better for us (and the cow) than cow’s milk.

All this stuff about how easy it is and how cheap and how anyone can do it is off putting imo. Vegetarian, or pescetarian I’d say yeah, that’s easy enough. Loads of alternatives to meat, and dairy and fish is accessible enough, it’s not nearly as scary. Vegan plant based not so much. 

It can seem quite intimidating with people talking about food items you’ve never heard of, or if you have it’s in a different context and when you’ve been brought up to think of fruit, grains and veg as an extra, not a staple, it’s hard to make the switch. I don’t think it’s a privilege, but I don’t think it’s as easy and accessible as people are trying to make out, or they wouldn’t be talking about surviving at uni and using frozen or canned veg.

It’s not necessarily easy. Take it slow, start with one meal, or item at a time, find out what you and your family enjoy and make the switch. You’ll feel better for it.

Or do what I did, see a couple of videos, dump animal produce regardless of the consequences and worry about cost, health and the planet later. :Hilarious


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> It's much easier on your own (not suggesting you get rid of hubby) realistically my ex would have a couple of meat free days but often I was making two meals. Also cooking for 1 it last longer but can be repetitive my chilli will last days.


I could feed the street when I do a vegetarian/vegan chili with lentils etc...so we have it as chilli with whatever one day, then burritos the next...as well as giving generous portions to OH for his lunch.... I do find it cost effective to be honest!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

lullabydream said:


> I could feed the street when I do a vegetarian/vegan chili with lentils etc...so we have it as chilli with whatever one day, then burritos the next...as well as giving generous portions to OH for his lunch.... I do find it cost effective to be honest!


It does go quite far doesn't it ! I have it with potatoes, rice, pasta, wraps.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Are you interested in changing your diet and asking for my help or are you just looking to find fault in anything I say? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely asking because the fact that you're equating rice and beans to chocolate and crisps is... well, I don't know what to say to that.
> 
> I grew up eating beans and rice. That is the diet of many people in Central America. It's a good, healthy diet that sustains entire populations. Yes, you add veggies and fruit, but the bulk of the diet is beans and rice. People survive just fine on it.


No I'm not interested in your help because someone who thinks you don't need vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds isn't following the healthy diet I would want to follow. I think @Elles is someone I would prefer to learn from since she seems to include health as well as animal welfare in her food choices. You do not.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> It does go quite far doesn't it ! I have it with potatoes, rice, pasta, wraps.


potatoes are my favourite...

The men of the household adore it with totally unhealthy tortilla chips/ Doritos!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

lullabydream said:


> potatoes are my favourite...
> 
> The men of the household adore it with totally unhealthy tortilla chips/ Doritos!


Oh yes I do like those as well with jalapeños yum.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> I don't think it's a privilege, but I don't think it's as easy and accessible as people are trying to make out, or they wouldn't be talking about surviving at uni and using frozen or canned veg.


Hey! I ate really well at uni, maybe it was alot of one pot bulk cooking but all tasty and nutritious stuff (without meat or fish). Also why so down on canned and frozen veg??
I keep plenty of it in and use it all the time, it isnt bad for you...its just vegetables!

Alot of people just not hearing what is being said IMO. If someone says you can base your diet on cheap options like pulses, rice, etc it doesnt mean that is all you eat. It means that it forms the basis to which you add other things like fruit, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc. Obviously if you have pots of cash you can eat lots of organic, seasonal posh stuff but if you are living hand to mouth then there is nothing wrong with staples. Potatoes for instance are very filling and packed full of vitamins and minerals...also very cheap!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I have to admit all this talk about beans and stuff like lentils sounds disgusting to me. Must sound horrible to someone who likes pizza, ice-cream and a Sunday roast. Makes me think of the Young Ones. :Hilarious

Spend the rest of your life eating lentil curry and chilli and farting a lot. :Jawdrop:Vomit

My husband eats ‘normal’ food. He eats meat, dairy, vegetables, not a fan of fruit and loves a Sunday roast. He won’t eat chicken, or anything that looks like it came from an animal eg has a bone in it. He thinks some of my meals look and taste nice, so he’ll occasionally eat them. 

He sometimes does the shopping and complained a lot when I went plant based. He says there’s milk in everything, has no clue what to buy and now comes back with a carrier full of fruit and a couple of choices of vegan cheeses and a loaf of fresh baked bread. Every time now. I have a fridge and freezer full of stuff that I can’t eat and he won’t lol, because it’s not normal enough for him, but has something in it that’s no longer part of my diet. 

I’ve had moussaka, burritos, lasagne, paella (that one’s an easy one) plus potato, mushroom and pasta based meals over the past few days. Plus some vegan chocolate and ice-cream. No curry, or chilli, or cheap cans of kidney beans and it didn’t cost me a fortune (well the ice-cream did), but it’s taken me quite a while to find these things and learn how to make them not just edible, but nice to eat.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Elles said:


> I have to admit all this talk about beans and stuff like lentils sounds disgusting to me. Must sound horrible to someone who likes pizza, ice-cream and a Sunday roast. Makes me think of the Young Ones. :Hilarious
> 
> Spend the rest of your life eating lentil curry and chilli and farting a lot. :Jawdrop:Vomit
> 
> ...


I love lentils and hot chillies but they do make you fart one of the benefits of having a dog though you can blame them !


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Hey! I ate really well at uni, maybe it was alot of one pot bulk cooking but all tasty and nutritious stuff (without meat or fish). Also why so down on canned and frozen veg??
> I keep plenty of it in and use it all the time, it isnt bad for you...its just vegetables!
> 
> Alot of people just not hearing what is being said IMO. If someone says you can base your diet on cheap options like pulses, rice, etc it doesnt mean that is all you eat. It means that it forms the basis to which you add other things like fruit, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc. Obviously if you have pots of cash you can eat lots of organic, seasonal posh stuff but if you are living hand to mouth then there is nothing wrong with staples. Potatoes for instance are very filling and packed full of vitamins and minerals...also very cheap!


Frozen vegetables are fine, but if you don't understand what is wrong with tinned vegetables, well, I'm speechless.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> I think it really depends on your tastes and what you have been bought up on. Processed food is slightly addictive.


I have always eaten fresh foods in the majority of my meals. I really believe it would be easier to go vegan if I'd eaten highly flavoured crap



Elles said:


> It can be easier once you know what you're doing, it is better for us and the planet and once our tastebuds (and bacteria) have got over the shock, the old, unhealthy stuff that we loved, suddenly seems cloying and disgusting. Start with the odd meal and see what you think?


If you like highly flavoured foods then you can disguise the blandness of rice, lentils etc.



Elles said:


> I have to admit all this talk about beans and stuff like lentils sounds disgusting to me. Must sound horrible to someone who likes pizza, ice-cream and a Sunday roast. Makes me think of the Young Ones. :Hilarious
> 
> Spend the rest of your life eating lentil curry and chilli and farting a lot.


Sounds disgusting to me too and I don't eat much crap. Also, people who eat curries and chilli all the time stink of it


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sacremist said:


> Frozen vegetables are fine, but if you don't understand what is wrong with tinned vegetables, well, I'm speechless.


I can't find salt in any of the canned vegetables in my pantry. Ascorbic acid is the only added thing in one of the tins. Looked at carrots, sweetcorn, tomato, peas and mushrooms.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

MilleD said:


> I can't find salt in any of the canned vegetables in my pantry. Ascorbic acid is the only added thing in one of the tins. Looked at carrots, sweetcorn, tomato, peas and mushrooms.


I looked online and I found it. You must have a magic cupboard.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MilleD said:


> I can't find salt in any of the canned vegetables in my pantry. Ascorbic acid is the only added thing in one of the tins. Looked at carrots, sweetcorn, tomato, peas and mushrooms.


What make are they?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Frozen vegetables are fine, but if you don't understand what is wrong with tinned vegetables, well, I'm speechless.





MilleD said:


> I can't find salt in any of the canned vegetables in my pantry. Ascorbic acid is the only added thing in one of the tins. Looked at carrots, sweetcorn, tomato, peas and mushrooms.


Yup, Im confused too! All mine is salt free. I dont have any issues with sulfites and BPA is also found in plastic packages and jar lids etc, so hard to avoid (also alot of compnies are now using BPA free cans).
Nurtitionally there isnt alot of difference. For me they are a great standby for when I havent got to the shops or cant afford anything fresh til payday.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

rona said:


> What make are they?


Sweet harvest from Aldi


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

T


MilleD said:


> Sweet harvest from Aldi


The salt content isn't visible, you need to turn the tin.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> Yup, Im confused too! All mine is salt free. I dont have any issues with sulfites and BPA is also found in plastic packages and jar lids etc, so hard to avoid (also alot of compnies are now using BPA free cans).
> Nurtitionally there isnt alot of difference. For me they are a great standby for when I havent got to the shops or cant afford anything fresh til payday.


Watched a programme where they tested the vitamin content of tinned frozen and fresh.

Fresh came bottom because the frozen and tinned are processed straight after harvest rather than hanging around losing nutrients.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Tbh there are a lot of canned veg these days that don’t have added salt and are ok.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sacremist said:


> T
> 
> The salt content isn't visible, you need to turn the tin.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Frozen vegetables are fine, but if you don't understand what is wrong with tinned vegetables, well, I'm speechless.





Sacremist said:


> I looked online and I found it. You must have a magic cupboard.





Sacremist said:


> T
> 
> The salt content isn't visible, you need to turn the tin.


What do you mean?

Salt content is very low on the few tins I have


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> T
> 
> The salt content isn't visible, you need to turn the tin.


Theres no added salt, just a minimal trace from the veg itself, the same as if you'd just dug it up yourself as I understand it.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

It contains salt.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

rona said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Salt content is very low on the few tins I have


They still contain salt.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> It contains salt.


So do fresh veg, some more than others. We need some salt.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> It contains salt.


You do know that the average adult needs 6gms of salt a day?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> So do fresh veg, some more than others. We need some salt.


I've never heard that, not of all veg. I know some do, but they still contain other preservatives. I'm allergic to sulfites.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

rona said:


> You do know that the average adult needs 6gms of salt a day?


And we can get that without adding salt to our food.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The cans you’re looking at don’t have added salt, which would be the issue if you’re looking at whether to buy canned veg or not and criticising them for salt content.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> The cans you're looking at don't have added salt, which would be the issue if you're looking at whether to buy canned veg or not and criticising them for salt content.


Do the tins say it hasn't been added.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sacremist said:


> Do the tins say it hasn't been added.


Mine did.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Mine did.


Show me.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Do the tins say it hasn't been added.


Does that really matter if it's only 0.1 or even 3% of your daily requirement?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sacremist said:


> Show me.


I did.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Show me.


Show us your proof


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

rona said:


> Does that really matter if it's only 0.1 of your daily requirement?


It does depending on whatever else you are eating.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

MilleD said:


> I did.
> 
> View attachment 413680


It says in water, that doesn't mean salt hasn't been added. Oops sorry, I looked more closely.
A lot still do not say that.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> It says in water, that doesn't mean salt hasn't been added.


Look closer


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sacremist said:


> It says in water, that doesn't mean salt hasn't been added.


Eh? It says no added salt in big letters...


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

This doesn't:


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

MilleD said:


> Eh? It says no added salt in big letters...


Look back I corrected myself.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sacremist said:


> It says in water, that doesn't mean salt hasn't been added. Oops sorry, I looked more closely.
> A lot still do not say that.




A lot of Aldi veg is the same.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> It says in water, that doesn't mean salt hasn't been added. Oops sorry, I looked more closely.
> A lot still do not say that.


wow. Im pretty sure there isnt a world wide conspiracy by supermarkets to make you eat hidden salt. If it says no added salt then that is what you get! Its normal for most veggies to have some sort of sodium content.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Things like peas, sweet corn and tomatoes are popular so no salt varieties exist, I never said they didn’t. The less popular veggies aren’t always available without salt.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Here's the sweetcorn


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> wow. Im pretty sure there isnt a world wide conspiracy by supermarkets to make you eat hidden salt. If it says no added salt then that is what you get! Its normal for most veggies to have some sort of sodium content.


Please go back and read what I wrote I've already said I didn't see it properly. I'm sat outside with the glare of the sun on my phone.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)




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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Like the young lady said, education. 

You deny that we need accessibility and education? :Hilarious

We have just been educated. I too thought you had to go out of your way to find cans with no added salt, seems that’s not true today and we can eat plenty of canned vegetables.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> View attachment 413683


Not those then.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)




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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> Like the young lady said, education.
> 
> You deny that we need accessibility and education? :Hilarious
> 
> We have just been educated. I too thought you had to go out of your way to find cans with no added salt, seems that's not true today and we can eat plenty of canned vegetables.


The point is that I never said they didn't exist, of course, you can buy popular vegetables with no added salt, but there's still plenty out there that do contain some salt, especially less popular vegetables. However, if we had to live on a diet that consisted of mostly tinned food, that salt content would rapidly add up. I never said that I don't ever use tinned veg. I certainly do use tinned tomatoes and passata because I can't be bothered roasting and peeling tomatoes, but I only use them occasionally and I never add extra salt. I track everything I eat and I still manage to clock up 6g of salt a day without adding more to my diet.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> The point is that I never said they didn't exist, of course, you can buy popular vegetables with no added salt, but there's still plenty out there that do contain some salt, especially less popular vegetables. However, if we had to live on a diet that consisted of mostly tinned food, that salt content would rapidly add up. I never said that I don't ever use tinned veg. I certainly do use tinned tomatoes and passata because I can't be bothered roasting and peeling tomatoes, but I only use them occasionally and I never add extra salt. I track everything I eat and I still manage to clock up 6g of salt a day without adding more to my diet.


I would have said salt free alternatives are hard to find and I do usually avoid most canned veg. I do buy a lot of frozen veg. Nice to know there are more canned varieties than I thought, but it just confirms that what the young lady said in her video doesn't it. 

Many of us think, unfairly in many cases, that canned veg is best avoided and don't even look at it. We don't know what we don't know until we know it.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I grew up eating beans and rice. That is the diet of many people in Central America. It's a good, healthy diet that sustains entire populations. Yes, you add veggies and fruit, but the bulk of the diet is beans and rice. People survive just fine on it.


Survive, sustain, "just fine" does not necessarily mean healthy. Was any balance considered in those diets? Quality of life matters too, in my opinion.

Someone mentioned it's all just what you are used to eating. Maybe. Not in my case.

I grew up with the kind of diet you talk about. Rice, potatoes, legumes, usually given to us in bulk bags from the local food bank.We were indeed very poor. Salvation army bag clothes, food stamps, food bank. Most cans came without labels.

My mother often just bunged it all together in a pot and flavored it to her own taste, exactly how you described feeding your family.. It was gross and I hated it all. To this day I can't bear anything that has any kind of spices high flavorings. Or foods cooked all together for that matter.

My mother did know something about nutrition. Orange juice was rationed out, 5 glasses with a pre-measured 6 ounces per kid left on the table every morning. Box of shredded wheat on the table. Jug of powdered mild mixed up and in the fridge. Milk was always powder from a box (usually with the label torn off the box) we could drink as much as we wanted, but who wanted? It was gross. She made us drink it..

But I became a secret sugar addict, because I hated the food. I've been struggling with that all of my adult life.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

:Woot:Woot:Woot:Woot


Elles said:


> I would have said salt free alternatives are hard to find and I do usually avoid most canned veg. I do buy a lot of frozen veg. Nice to know there are more canned varieties than I thought, but it just confirms that what the young lady said in her video doesn't it.
> 
> Many of us think, unfairly in many cases, that canned veg is best avoided and don't even look at it. We don't know what we don't know until we know it.


I've always known they exist, because I do buy them, mostly for hubby who likes a tin of peas with his really healthy potato and meat pies! :Woot I also occasionally have a tin of no added sugar baked beans on a jacket potato with cheese, so I'm no saint.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

MilleD said:


> Here's the sweetcorn
> 
> View attachment 413682


ooooooh, tinned sweetcorn! I put this in everything (including sandwiches) and have to buy extra coz I eat half of it straight out of the can!LOL



Sacremist said:


> Please go back and read what I wrote I've already said I didn't see it properly. I'm sat outside with the glare of the sun on my phone.


I know...we posted at the same time though so I didnt see your reply.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> ooooooh, tinned sweetcorn! I put this in everything (including sandwiches) and have to buy extra coz I eat half of it straight out of the can!LOL
> 
> I know...we posted at the same time though so I didnt see your reply.


No problem.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Survive, sustain, "just fine" does not necessarily mean healthy. Was any balance considered in those diets? Quality of life matters too, in my opinion.
> 
> Someone mentioned it's all just what you are used to eating. Maybe. Not in my case.
> 
> ...


When I was growing up, we didn't have a lot of money. We lived on tins of vegetables, cheap burgers, tins of corned beef, potatoes etc. Throughout my childhood, I was plagued with mouth ulcers.

As I got older and I started going out for meals with my boyfriend, I experienced good quality fresh vegetables, the taste was amazing. So, I told my mum, I was going to start shopping and cooking for myself. I bought all fresh produce. We didn't have a freezer back then. One day, I realised that I couldn't remember when I last had a mouth ulcer. I had assumed mouth ulcers were normal.

The only time I've had a mouth ulcer since, has been when we have had barbecues or salads day after day. As soon as I go back to eating my veg, the mouth ulcers go. So now I always make a vegetable salad rather than just the usual salad ingredients.

Frozen veg has been a wonderful addition to my diet, but I have very good reasons for having the attitude I have. For me, the proof is in the mouth ulcers.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

We have no shop (or pub) in my village, and only one bus a day The nearest supermarket selling fresh fruit and veg is 12 miles away and the major ones like Tesco, Auchan, Lidl and Aldi are in the city a 60 mile drive away. No online grocery shopping either as none of them will deliver so far out of town!

Hungary is very backward when it comes to prepared vegan/vegetarian food such as vegan hamburgers, sausages or Quorn products. It's possible to buy hummus and plant milk in my local supermarket and in the major city one's, tofu and a few Hungarian made soya sandwich spreads which I don't buy because soya upsets me! Oh! and if you're lucky Tesco sometimes has their own brand frankfurters and hamburgers again soya based. I believe there is a vegetarian restaurant in the city, but where I shop even as a fairly liberal vegetarian there's nowhere for me to eat or even buy a meat free sandwich!

I know it would be far too hard for me to be vegan if only because of the language barrier. To be able to read labels I'd have to have a good knowledge not only of Hungarian but also Polish, Romanian, Slovakian, German and Czech! And as I'm not prepared to worry or feel guilty about whether or not I might have had a little cheese in a sandwich or real milk in my coffee whilst I'm out I decided to be vegetarian instead.

Like most of the villagers I have a veggie patch and generally grow enough chard, carrots, potatoes, peppers beans, parsnips and tomatoes to last for a year. Everything else I buy although fruit and veg like mangoes and avocado are extremely expensive and often not a qood quality so not bought very often. Basically though apart from not buying meat, fish or dairy products, or anything that contains them, everything else is virtually the same as I used to buy before I became a vegetarian.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm just going to set this here.... For anyone who may find it useful 

https://www.forksoverknives.com/hea...Kus5MrrukCOXv-ZH8zYFB6Jzl44oZ_6jkxM#gs.wr1cdb


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Difficult but doable?

Local Mexican market.. 

“Eating a solid meal for breakfast is a good way to start the day,”

Breakfast: 1 banana

1 banana isn’t breakfast unless you’re on some kind of crash diet and I don’t even eat breakfast. I thought grits were something people put on their cereal in America, I don’t know what many of the ingredients in their cooking are, have never seen a Mexican shop, or market and what is an Indian shop anyway? It’s great if that’s what you want to do, but it confirms what the young lady in the video said about accessibility and education. It also said that the woman doing the experiment is naturally petite and ate around 1600 calories a day. An average healthy male needs 2,500 and a woman 2,000. It’s a diet, not a sustainable lifestyle.

It reminds me of politicians and the famous who live on the dole for a couple of days to show poor people how to do it.

I don’t know why anyone is trying to argue that this kind of thing is so cheap and easy for everyone.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Elles said:


> 1 banana isn't breakfast unless you're on some kind of crash diet


Oh no...one banana SHOULD be totally sufficient for breakfast...IMO many people in todays western world eat far too much. We are not designed to eat 3 substantial meals a day...in fact breakfast was only invented by breakfast cereal companies (Cornflakes was invented to stop masturbation but that is another story haha).

I have no dog in this fight...I think if you want to look for a cheap vegi/vegan diet then it is possible...there is nothing wrong with using rice, potatoes and pasta as a base and then add in season fruit and veggies (everyone can have a window box, and running through the reduced box at the end of the day at supermarkets) and not every meal needs to be spot on with nutrients and calories...however, whilst it is easier (and possibly cheaper in the short term) to pick up cheap, factory farmed meat then the majority will pick this...most people like the taste of meat after all!

All I know is that my food shopping bill as reduced drastically since I gave up animal products.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Oh no...one banana SHOULD be totally sufficient for breakfast


Makes no difference to me - even the smell of bananas makes me want to puke... :Yuck 

I'll stick to my fake shredded wheat or wholegrain toast, thanks!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jesthar said:


> Makes no difference to me - even the smell of bananas makes me want to puke... :Yuck


You'd probably hate my homemade banana and walnut loaf then


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> (Cornflakes was invented to stop masturbation but that is another story haha).


Eh??


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

We don't grow lentils in the UK. There was just 24 acres harvested in 2017 and it really hasn't increased substantially since then.
A beef cow or sheep raised on land no good for crops would be much more sustainable than flying pulses half way around the world


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> Eh??


No joke


> John Harvey Kellogg was born today in 1852. He *invented Cornflakes* in 1878 in the hope that plain food would stop people masturbating. Mr Kellogg, the man who created *Corn Flakes*, produced the cereal in the late 19th century and marketed it as a "healthy, ready-to-eat anti-masturbatory morning meal".


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

MilleD said:


> Eh??


I second this it really needs following up


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> I second this it really needs following up


I thought it was common knowledge ..........................................


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> You'd probably hate my homemade banana and walnut loaf then


Leave out the banana and we'll talk...


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> I thought it was common knowledge ..........................................


Are you sure that 'happy chappy' wasn't eating this...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/health/1053962/can-a-cereal-spice-up-your-sex-life/


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

rona said:


> We don't grow lentils in the UK. There was just 24 acres harvested in 2017 and it really hasn't increased substantially since then.
> A beef cow or sheep raised on land no good for crops would be much more sustainable than flying pulses half way around the world


We are starting to grow lentils, and you can buy a lot of things grown here if you have a mind to
https://hodmedods.co.uk/blogs/news/first-british-lentil-harvest-underway


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> Leave out the banana and we'll talk...


You don't like bananas ?  Whats wrong with you!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

A typical banana contains 79 calories. My breakfast of 2 weetabix with 200mls of semi-skimmed and 40g blueberries contains 259 calories. This is an average breakfast for me. I eat 1500 calories a day and I’m dieting. I lose on average 1-2 lbs per week, therefore, I’m not overeating, so, no, a banana for breakfast is nowhere near enough food for a typical adult and it’s absolutely preposterous to suggest that it is.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> You don't like bananas ?  Whats wrong with you!


Nowt wrong with me, it's the rest of the world that's barmy!


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I'm just going to set this here.... For anyone who may find it useful
> 
> https://www.forksoverknives.com/hea...Kus5MrrukCOXv-ZH8zYFB6Jzl44oZ_6jkxM#gs.wr1cdb


Well I`m always up for a challenge so I am going to follow this for the next 10 days.

I shop local, in my nearest town, we don't have a huge choice of shops but can get most of the basics. There are no specialist shops and unfortunately no scoop loose grains/flours etc shop. There is a farmers market but I avoid driving into town on Saturday, plus it has become expensive since they brought in new rules. 
So that is how I do my shopping, today I bought the ingredients needed for day one. I have failed to bring it under $5 which according to exchange rate would be £4.12. My shop was £5.43 which is $ 6.49 apparently. 
Still never mind some foods on other days might be cheaper here so I can claw it back possibly.

I am following the plan by myself ( I think the author is only feeding herself) there is no way I feel this diet could sustain my husband. 
I will post updates if anyone is interested, actually I`ll just post updates anyway even if no-one is interested


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

3dogs2cats said:


> Well I`m always up for a challenge so I am going to follow this for the next 10 days.
> 
> I shop local, in my nearest town, we don't have a huge choice of shops but can get most of the basics. There are no specialist shops and unfortunately no scoop loose grains/flours etc shop. There is a farmers market but I avoid driving into town on Saturday, plus it has become expensive since they brought in new rules.
> So that is how I do my shopping, today I bought the ingredients needed for day one. I have failed to bring it under $5 which according to exchange rate would be £4.12. My shop was £5.43 which is $ 6.49 apparently.
> ...


Weigh yourself at the beginning and end too.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> I thought it was common knowledge ..........................................


I am shocked never again will I eat my cornflakes with innocence. How funny.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

So I would be hungry on this diet I do like two breakfasts one at 5 one at about 9. But then this morning I walked two miles with the boys and ran 6 miles so I do get hungry. 

However if you were really struggling for money you could survive on this. My budget is slightly bigger so I eat more.

I be interested to see how you get on @O2.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Oh no...one banana SHOULD be totally sufficient for breakfast...I


No, no. You want protein for breakfast, not sugar.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> You don't like bananas ?  Whats wrong with you!


I don't either. I forced myself to eat them for years because they were "good" for me. I finally realized they were the cause of my lunch time stomachache (I was eating them in my cereal for lunch, only way I could get them down). I finally gave them up.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It’s a diet, it’s not a cheap, healthy, nutritious, tasty, vegan, lifestyle change. I could eat 1600 calories of porridge or muesli for 10 days, no one is going to persuade me to live on it for the rest of my life. It’s better than many slimming diets, but that’s what it is. It’s not an encouraging lifestyle change for a healthy family. It’s a challenge and good on her, but it’s unrealistic.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> It's a diet, it's not a cheap, healthy, nutritious, tasty, vegan, lifestyle change. I could eat 1600 calories of porridge or muesli for 10 days, no one is going to persuade me to live on it for the rest of my life. It's better than many slimming diets, but that's what it is. It's not an encouraging lifestyle change for a healthy family. It's a challenge and good on her, but it's unrealistic.


I dont think she is recommending it as a diet or an ideal. Just showing that you can eat healthily and plant based on a strict budget. Probably not what people would want to eat everyday but then again if you are on a strict budget you dont get to eat what you want everyday anyways!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I dont think she is recommending it as a diet or an ideal. Just showing that you can eat healthily and plant based on a strict budget. Probably not what people would want to eat everyday but then again if you are on a strict budget you dont get to eat what you want everyday anyways!


Trouble is 1600 calories isn't healthy. Sending your kids to school and a 6ft+ bloke to work with nothing but a banana for breakfast and calling it a "solid meal for breakfast" is a joke.

Imagine if Boris said to the poor, "stop complaining, buy a banana for breakfast mon" :Hilarious:Hilarious

The thread is about a video where a young lady said that we need more education and more accessibility to plant based. I think we can rest her case.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> Trouble is 1600 calories isn't healthy. Sending your kids to school and a 6ft+ bloke to work with nothing but a banana for breakfast and calling it a "solid meal for breakfast" is a joke.
> 
> Imagine if Boris said to the poor, "stop complaining, buy a banana for breakfast mon" :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> The thread is about a video where a young lady said that we need more education and more accessibility to plant based. I think we can rest her case.


I wonder what nutrients are missing too


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Elles said:


> Trouble is 1600 calories isn't healthy. Sending your kids to school and a 6ft+ bloke to work with nothing but a banana for breakfast and calling it a "solid meal for breakfast" is a joke.
> 
> Imagine if Boris said to the poor, "stop complaining, buy a banana for breakfast mon" :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> The thread is about a video where a young lady said that we need more education and more accessibility to plant based. I think we can rest her case.


But this is an extremely tight budget if you had an average budget you could eat more. What is an average family U.K. Budget ? Not buying meat does save money. What would you recommend in place of this ?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> But this is an extremely tight budget if you had an average budget you could eat more. What is an average family U.K. Budget ? Not buying meat does save money. What would you recommend in place of this ?


Don't know, I'm always looking for new ideas. Plus we shouldn't get confused between vegetarian and vegan. A lot of dairy produce is really cheap in the U.K. Cheap, familiar and accessible. It's relatively easy to cut meat out, but full plant based is a bit more intimidating and difficult for most people who are used to what's commonly available in our particular culture.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Elles said:


> Don't know, I'm always looking for new ideas. Plus we shouldn't get confused between vegetarian and vegan. A lot of dairy produce is really cheap in the U.K. Cheap, familiar and accessible. It's relatively easy to cut meat out, but full plant based is a bit more intimidating and difficult for most people who are used to what's commonly available in our particular culture.


Yes I agree I have found giving up cheese a challenge. I don't think it is inaccessible any more it used to be very difficult. There are so many recipes now.

One issue is the milk alternative I've moved too oat milk but it is more expensive.

I can only go on my sister as an example who is an artist by trade she does eat a good diet (no banana for breakfast although does make banana bread ) and is completely vegan.

Years ago she was quite constrained but it is a lot easier now loads of yummy recipes vegan pancakes and her budget isn't excessive. Dinners she makes soups and stews, pasta full of veg, vegan pizza ect. She also has normal breakfast such as toast and marmite.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> She also has normal breakfast such as toast and marmite.


Marmite?!? No way is THAT normal!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> Marmite?!? No way is THAT normal!


No I love marmite! If I had to choose 1 food it would be marmite on toast.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I agree for vegans today it’s a lot easier than it was. What still isn’t easy, is going from full on omnivore family to vegan, or starting out as vegan. That will become better in the future, as plant based becomes more norm.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> Trouble is 1600 calories isn't healthy. Sending your kids to school and a 6ft+ bloke to work with nothing but a banana for breakfast and calling it a "solid meal for breakfast" is a joke.


TBF she bought 4 bananas and it seemed like the breakfast was bananas...plural!
Although I don't think I could eat that many without getting thoroughly sick of them. All you need though is a big bag of oats for porridge with your banana and you've got a filling tasty breakfast with a decent amount of calories. And oats are pretty cheap.

oh, and marmite on toast is the dogs b***ocks!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> Trouble is 1600 calories isn't healthy. Sending your kids to school and a 6ft+ bloke to work with nothing but a banana for breakfast and calling it a "solid meal for breakfast" is a joke.
> 
> Imagine if Boris said to the poor, "stop complaining, buy a banana for breakfast mon" :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> The thread is about a video where a young lady said that we need more education and more accessibility to plant based. I think we can rest her case.


I didn't post it as a suggestion for anyone to follow, just as an example of what ONE person did/does. Just as I posted some of what I do as an example of what ONE person does. Just an example. Not a directive, not even a suggestion, just putting other experiences out there. And yes, I know it's not UK, but there is more to the world than the British Isles  

I don't know why giving examples of what others do isn't educational. If it doesn't apply to you, don't use it. If there aren't enough calories in those meals, add more. There might be something in there that someone can use. If so great. If not, it's not hurting anyone to see what others do. 
Hell, I have to listen to you guys talking about disgusting marmite and beans on toast, if I can handle that, I think you can handle a couple American meals. 

A banana for breakfast is far from the worst thing you could offer a hungry child. Here our area is poor enough that every child in the school district is given a free breakfast - state sponsored. Today it was pop tarts. Yes, poptarts. My own kids very often grab a banana from home to eat on the way to school. Frankly I'd rather they do that than start the day with a poptart.
So in a way our politicians have already done what you're suggesting would be bad - stop complaining we gave you a poptart for breakfast. I'm not cool with that either. Especially as this is food handed out to the poor. The poor who already have much higher rates of obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, cancers, etc., etc. Those free poptarts aren't helping.

FWIW, I don't eat breakfast (neither do you if I remember right). As someone has already mentioned, this idea of 3 meals a day is not normal or natural eating patters for humans. We didn't wake up in cave-man days and head to the pantry for our marmite toast or banana. Actually our savanna dwelling ancestors were probably more likely to be grabbing a quite bite of fruit or berries for breakfast as they started their day.



lorilu said:


> No, no. You want protein for breakfast, not sugar.


Protein and sugar are not food, they're nutrients. 
Whole plant foods have protein, carbohydrates and fats. They're food, not a single nutrient. You want real food for breakfast (and lunch and dinner), not individual nutrients.

One of the arguments of the WFPB way of eating is that labeling foods as macronutrients as opposed to *food* is part of what has gotten us in to the health crisis we're in. When you label a banana as 'sugar' same as a donut or poptart, you're missing the big picture. A banana is a healthy, nutrient rich, real food that your body will recognize and process as real food. A donut, a poptart is heavily processed, devoid of fiber (98% of Americans don't get even half the recommended daily allowance of fiber), pseudo-food that supplies calories and little else. Which is how we have become a nation that is overfed and undernourished. 
Eat the damn banana.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> TBF she bought 4 bananas and it seemed like the breakfast was bananas...plural!
> Although I don't think I could eat that many without getting thoroughly sick of them. All you need though is a big bag of oats for porridge with your banana and you've got a filling tasty breakfast with a decent amount of calories. And oats are pretty cheap.
> 
> oh, and marmite on toast is the dogs b***ocks!!


The bananas seem a bit ambiguous! Not sure on day two how many of the four bananas I will be eating, day 3 is 1 banana for breakfast, nice clear instruction but day 2 just says bananas so is the three or what? By day 4 I will be back out buying yet more bananas! I guess I will just snack on surplus bananas.

There will be no toast or marmite, bread isn't on the list and thank heavens neither is marmite:Vomit Oats get a look in on day ten - I wont be eating them as I cant stand them- but not sure on the plan where they come from cos as far as I can tell they aren't on the shopping list, but she mentions having money spare from the $50 so maybe she brought them with that.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

> I took it down to $5 a day, which is closer to the budget of people who live on food stamps.





> In order to simulate the shopping experience of the average American, I shopped in big chain supermarkets, small mom-and-pop stores, specialty grocery stores, and at my local farmer's market.


these two statements make no sense whatsoever
people on foodstamps have to shop in certain stores, the ones that accept them
many are restricted to certain products as well

she may be able to spend her $5 a day, as per the second statement
people on foodstamps cannot
one reason i hope food stamps never become a thing in this country
give me money in my hand, and ill make an educated choice on how to shop and where


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> food stamps never become a thing in this country
> give me money in my hand, and ill make an educated choice on how to shop and where


Not food stamps exactly but as well as free formula milk, at one point low income families were getting tokens for fruit and vegetables. I don't know if that stopped I think it was for under 5s..i know the majority of low income families didn't always use them, or cash them in which I found ridiculous.

Just you mentioning food stamps reminded me.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Protein and sugar are not food, they're nutrients.
> Whole plant foods have protein, carbohydrates and fats. They're food, not a single nutrient. You want real food for breakfast (and lunch and dinner), not individual nutrients.
> 
> One of the arguments of the WFPB way of eating is that labeling foods as macronutrients as opposed to *food* is part of what has gotten us in to the health crisis we're in. When you label a banana as 'sugar' same as a donut or poptart, you're missing the big picture. A banana is a healthy, nutrient rich, real food that your body will recognize and process as real food. A donut, a poptart is heavily processed, devoid of fiber (98% of Americans don't get even half the recommended daily allowance of fiber), pseudo-food that supplies calories and little else. Which is how we have become a nation that is overfed and undernourished.
> Eat the damn banana.


Eat the banana, and something with it to give you some protein.  I understand what you are saying. But a body needs food that offers protein.

I have no arguments with your comments on poptarts or donuts. I don't eat them myself. Ever. When I worked in special ed I had a student whose mother sent him a pop tart for his snack every day. (She told me he ate oatmeal for breakfast before coming to school. The kind that comes in little envelopes with sugary flavorings) He would be an okay kid to work with until he ate that pop tart. After he ate it he became an enraged shut down kid. Angry, couldn't do anything with him. I wrote to his mother describing what I was seeing and wondering if she would be willing to send him something else. She started sending those little plastic fruit cups instead. He liked them just as well, and of course you and I know there probably isn't much difference in the sugar content, but he didn't have that bad reaction from the fruit cups as he had with the pop tarts, thank goodness. I forget where I was going with this.

A banana is better than a pop tart or a donut (or possibly a bagel. ) Agreed.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

lorilu said:


> Eat the banana, and something with it to give you some protein.  I understand what you are saying. But a body needs food that offers protein.


awwwww. Now I really fancy a toasted banana and peanut butter sandwich and I don't have one.:Hungry


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Bananas have 1.3 grams of protein each.

Arguably, our protein obsession is also not healthy for us. 
http://proteinaholic.com/


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh wow, speaking of school meals, this was in my FB memories today, from 2012, a flyer from school:
Note the comparisons.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Bananas have 1.3 grams of protein each.
> 
> Arguably, our protein obsession is also not healthy for us.
> http://proteinaholic.com/


 Yes I know how much protein a banana has .It's not enough for breakfast. It also has 14 g of sugar. I think we've already agreed the banana isn't a bad thing...as far as it goes, which isn't far.

As for the link, lol. it reads :

*How Our Obsession with Meat Is Killing Us and What We Can Do About It*

And the rest isn't much better. It sounds a lot like just a guy selling another diet. 

I wasn't suggesting meat as the protein source. I eat peanut butter for breakfast. The kind that is nothing but ground peanuts. On a knife. I dig it into the jar and pry off a chunk and eat it.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Bananas have 1.3 grams of protein each.
> 
> Arguably, our protein obsession is also not healthy for us.
> http://proteinaholic.com/


and 24g of net carbs
one of the killers for those of us who have to follow a low carb way of life ( as opposed to a fad diet)
they are the one thing i miss more than anything, i have done 6 months so far with no pasta, rice, bread or potatoes of any kinds, and, havent missed them
Bananas however :Bawling:Bawling:Bawling


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

My point was that she said:

“Eating a solid meal for breakfast is a good way to start the day,”

And then suggested for breakfast “1 banana”

You’re right, I don’t eat anything in the morning aka breakfast, but I did think it was funny to think of one banana as a “solid meal for breakfast” considering your average British bloke would probably be thinking “Full English”. It gave me a chuckle. I can imagine the screams of horror, not only are you expecting a meat eater to go full vegan, you’re going to give them a banana for breakfast. :Hilarious

Maybe no one else thought it was a funny as I did. 

If someone is sick and needs to lose weight, a version of her diet might be ok to kick start, with expert supervision, but as an alternative for someone who is a skint vegan it’s practically starving them. One extreme to the other.

I have never bought, or eaten a pop tart, looks disgusting.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

To all the people who think that this diet is restrictive or just plain yuk would you be able to do a much better one with animal products??

(just curious. Im not sure I would be able to get a lot of food if I was buying those items as well).


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> To all the people who think that this diet is restrictive or just plain yuk would you be able to do a much better one with animal products??
> 
> (just curious. Im not sure I would be able to get a lot of food if I was buying those items as well).


I ate very well on a lot less than that for 3+ years when I was struggling to pay Alfies vet bills


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Dairy, eggs, cereal, bread and sugar are cheap, so yes, people could live on less, especially large families and it would include food that most people are more accustomed to and practically every food shop stocks. Which was the point in the thread. 

A lot of food that isn’t very good for us is subsidised either by the Eu, or by the government. Your kids can get breakfast club and free school dinners, neither of which are vegan without some effort and pressure from the parents and many schools don’t do vegan at all. Vegetarian is easier.

Just more reasons that currently we need more education and accessibility.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> Dairy, eggs, cereal, bread and sugar are cheap, so yes, people could live on less, especially large families and it would include food that most people are more accustomed to and practically every food shop stocks. Which was the point in the thread.


idk, Ive been looking over Aldi's groceries and I still dont see how you could have a decent cheap diet on it. Meat seems to be around £2.00 unless you are talking the processed stuff or bacon which is bad for you, or the horrible factory farmed chicken. Cheese is expensive and eggs are only cheap again if its the really cruel factory farmed ones.
Thats why I was asking if anybody had an example menu if how they would do it for £5 a day. Again, not trying to be awkward just wondering how the meat/dairy eaters would meet the challenge!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Bread, cheese, margarine, cereal, milk, apples, potatoes, sugar, eggs, rice, cheap cans. Look for special offers.

£5 a day is £35 a week. I can buy loads from Lidl or Aldi.

It’s all bad for you, but it’s easy, accessible and familiar. The point in the thread. 

The diet with the banana for breakfast isn’t decent either and tbh ‘cheap’ isn’t the whole point. It’s knowing what to buy and where from. When I started out I hadn’t got a clue, despite being vegetarian most of my life and wanting to do this. I still don’t. We have to go out of our way to find out, because it’s not yet the norm and schools don’t even offer a vegan option for free dinners. Don’t even go there with food banks. How is that cheap, easy and accessible for all? It’s not.

We can do it, but we have to want to. It’s not something that would be normal yet. Vegetarian, yes pretty much, definitely getting there, but there are a lot of cultures that are vegetarian and we’re multi-cultural. Vegan no.

ETA if you’re a meat eater too and broke, then yeah factory farmed crap could be a part of your diet. Then factory farmed, processed crap is cheap, familiar and accessible.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Maybe I’m looking at this from a different perspective. You guys are pretty much saying “I’m vegan and healthy and it’s cheap, I can feed an army for half the price”. Which is probably true.

I’m coming at it from the aspect of education and accessibility. Health professionals, schools, governments. None promote a healthy plant based lifestyle. Literature is about five, or seven a day and cutting back on sugar. There are a multitude of diets recommended by health professionals to control diabetes, reduce the chance of heart disease, lower cholesterol etc, etc, or just lose weight and none, or very few of them are plant based. Schools don’t offer plant based, vegan meals to their students, especially if they get free meals. Hospitals when you’re sick and need it most, don’t give out plant based meals.

It’s not easy, cheap and accessible to all. Sometimes we have to fight for it and that’s wrong. As more people go plant based, it will become more normal and easier, but at the moment it’s not imho.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> idk, Ive been looking over Aldi's groceries and I still dont see how you could have a decent cheap diet on it. Meat seems to be around £2.00 unless you are talking the processed stuff or bacon which is bad for you, or the horrible factory farmed chicken. Cheese is expensive and eggs are only cheap again if its the really cruel factory farmed ones.
> Thats why I was asking if anybody had an example menu if how they would do it for £5 a day. Again, not trying to be awkward just wondering how the meat/dairy eaters would meet the challenge!


Is that £5 a day per person or per family? I spend around £60 per week for a family of five (admittedly the two youngest ones eat quite small portions), and that includes nappies, toiletries etc as well as food. A mixture of meat-free (but not vegan) meals and meals that contain meat but in smallish amounts. Happy to share a sample menu if you're genuinely interested


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

£5 a day per person, for a family of 6, which we were, is £30per day just on food, £210 per week, that's a lot to spend on food alone (not groceries remember just food)
I never spent even half of that, when everyone was at home on ALL my groceries, and believe me, no one went hungry in this house of omnies


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> idk, Ive been looking over Aldi's groceries and I still dont see how you could have a decent cheap diet on it. Meat seems to be around £2.00 unless you are talking the processed stuff or bacon which is bad for you, or the horrible factory farmed chicken. Cheese is expensive and eggs are only cheap again if its the really cruel factory farmed ones.
> Thats why I was asking if anybody had an example menu if how they would do it for £5 a day. Again, not trying to be awkward just wondering how the meat/dairy eaters would meet the challenge!


My mum used to cut cheese into very thin slices, so it went a long way and probably the reason why none of us had any weight issues. Our portions of meat were small. Most people today do eat far more protein than they need, but if you're on a budget, you have to be more frugal with everything you put on a plate. However, meat is higher in calories, so even a small amount is enough. We only need 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is surprisingly small.

Animal protein is a complete protein, whereas vegetable protein is not, that doesn't mean you can't get all your nutrients from vegetable protein, but you do have to eat a much wider selection of it than a meat eater does. Due to animal protein being complete, it's easier for meat eaters to have small portions and still get all the nutrients they need to sustain their bodily functions.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Elles said:


> Maybe I'm looking at this from a different perspective.
> I'm coming at it from the aspect of education and accessibility.
> 
> Hospitals when you're sick and need it most, don't give out plant based meals.
> ...


All good points about the education and I totally agree with you there, but it is something that is changing and the resources are growing. Even 5 years ago this topic wouldnt of been nearly so popular on the forum coz alot of us wouldve thought it was just a few wackos with extreme ideas, now alot of us have educated ourselves. 
So id say that not enough is being done by the government and our healthcare and education system but the information is trickling down anyways.
(also most hospitals will cater for a vegan diet, or pretty much any diet. Its just chances are it will be incredibly boring and bland! IME even in hospitals up to date education about food choices is woefully behind).



NaomiM said:


> Happy to share a sample menu if you're genuinely interested


I think Im interested coz I never really cooked much with meat and fish myself so its never been a mainstay of my meals (I substituted other things all the time). I never had an issue with it as such....just supremely unconfident in my cooking abilities and worried Id get food poisoning from a half cooked sausage!:Hilarious
Also meaty things sometimes spit at you when you cook them so Im not gonna eat anything that fights back!LOL



Sacremist said:


> However, meat is higher in calories, so even a small amount is enough. We only need 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is surprisingly small.
> .


huh...so really you could swap out meat for nuts and seeds for a similar size/price/protein result! Just goes to show!


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

> huh...so really you could swap out meat for nuts and seeds for a similar size/price/protein result! Just goes to show!


Except for those of us who cannot stand the taste or texture of nuts or seeds :Yuck.

Banana or a full English isn't the only option for breakfasts. I prefer weetabix in milk because it fills me up for longer without snacking on other things. A banana Id be hungry again by an hour.

I've always been brought up on simple food, almost all of it homemade. It always consisted of a small portion of some sort of meat, and the rest some sort of veg (mostly root veg because that was all my mum could get). Then we had just a sandwich for lunch. You could make meat go a long way by doing that, it made if far less expensive for a week shop


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> huh...so really you could swap out meat for nuts and seeds for a similar size/price/protein result! Just goes to show!


Provided you had a varied enough diet in sizeable quantities, then possibly yes. However, you only need a 100g portion of red meat per week to give you all the iron your body needs, but a vegan needs to eat plenty of iron rich or iron fortified cereals and vegetables every single day in sizeable proportions or they can become anaemic. This means consuming lots of spinach, broccoli and watercress every day. Consuming beans every day as well as nuts and seeds is essential to providing all the amino acids we need, but vegans will have to eat a lot more of those than a meat eater needs to eat meat. Besides, kilogram for kilogram nuts and seeds are twice the price of meat, although dried beans are cheaper so probably the better option.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

You can see the difference in price between nuts and seeds compared with beef in these screenshots. I've taken them from Morrison's - Aldi is probably cheaper but I can't screenshot their prices. Like I said, beans are cheaper.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I think Im interested coz I never really cooked much with meat and fish myself so its never been a mainstay of my meals (I substituted other things all the time).


Here's an average week for my family:

Sunday
Breakfast - scrambled eggs (we have our own hens so these are free, but you can get six "free range" eggs for 89p from Tesco), buttered toast, cereal (cheap own-brand)
Lunch - cheese on toast, salad, fruit, yogurt.
Dinner - roast chicken (small higher-welfare chicken £2.29 from Lidl), roast potatoes, sweet potatoes, broccoli, cabbage, carrots

Monday
Breakfast - I sometimes treat myself and the younger kids to an IKEA cooked breakfast for £1.75 each (the girls share one) - sausage, bacon, egg, hash brown, beans and tomato. DS joins us too in the school holidays. Otherwise it's cereal and toast.
Lunch - sandwiches (DS and DH like brie, 90p for a big wedge; the girls like cream cheese, 49p a tub), salad, fruit, yogurt (45p for a big tub of plain yogurt or £1 for six individual flavoured ones).
Dinner - risotto made with the leftover chicken together with onions, mushrooms, peppers and peas, cooked in chicken stock with grana padano cheese for flavour (about 60p worth), served with salad.

Tuesday
Breakfast - cereal, toast.
Lunch - scrambled eggs on toast or sandwiches, salad, fruit, yogurt.
Dinner - home-made tuna fishcakes made from two tins tuna (£1.63 for both) with potato, mayo and mustard for flavour, an egg to bind and breadcrumbs to coat. Served with oven chips, peas and sweetcorn.

Wednesday
Breakfast - porridge, fruit.
Lunch - sandwiches, salad, fruit, yogurt.
Dinner - roasted peppers stuffed with couscous and feta cheese (95p a block from Tesco) with homemade sweet potato chips and salad.

Thursday
Breakfast - cereal, toast.
Lunch - sandwiches, homemade veg soup, yogurt.
Dinner - spaghetti bolognese made with 250g lean beef mince (£2.19) mixed with tinned tomatoes, onions, peppers, mushrooms, courgettes. Served with spaghetti and grated cheese. Half the bolognese sauce leftover for tomorrow.

Friday
Breakfast - porridge, fruit
Lunch - sandwiches, salad, fruit, yogurt.
Dinner - lasagne made with the leftover bolognese sauce and a cheese sauce made using 60p worth of grana padano, topped with about 40p worth of grated cheddar. Served with homemade garlic bread and salad.

Saturday
Breakfast - croissants, cereal, fruit.
Lunch - hubby and I usually have scrambled eggs on toast; I might treat the girls to a sausage roll each (60p for two) and DS to a mini pizza (49p). Salad, fruit, yogurt.
Dinner - maybe a veggie option like falafels, or maybe a chicken stir fry (410g higher welfare chicken breast £1.99 from Lidl) or casserole (1kg higher welfare chicken thighs £1.79 from Lidl), with loads of veggies thrown in either way, and quite possibly leftovers to freeze.

Generally a fairly healthy menu apart from the occasional treat. Add in teabags, milk, storecupboard essentials like jams/stock cubes/herbs/spices etc and the odd pack of cakes/biscuits etc as desserts/treats and it comes in at around £50 all told.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> Like I said, beans are cheaper.


Dont have to sell me on beans! I love them!
and to think before this I just thought you got baked beans and red kidney beans (if you were feeling exotic). I eat them all the time now



NaomiM said:


> Generally a fairly healthy menu apart from the occasional treat.


That actually sounds really healthy @NaomiM.
I have to admit I do miss some things like cheesy pizza or cheese on toast (vegan cheese just doesnt melt properly). Also I used to really love eggs and I probably still would love scrambled eggs on toast!
But well, animals, the planet, etc......:Shy


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Dont have to sell me on beans! I love them!
> and to think before this I just thought you got baked beans and red kidney beans (if you were feeling exotic). I eat them all the time now@NaomiM.


I love butter beans.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Elles said:


> Maybe I'm looking at this from a different perspective. You guys are pretty much saying "I'm vegan and healthy and it's cheap, I can feed an army for half the price". Which is probably true.
> 
> I'm coming at it from the aspect of education and accessibility. Health professionals, schools, governments. None promote a healthy plant based lifestyle. Literature is about five, or seven a day and cutting back on sugar. There are a multitude of diets recommended by health professionals to control diabetes, reduce the chance of heart disease, lower cholesterol etc, etc, or just lose weight and none, or very few of them are plant based. Schools don't offer plant based, vegan meals to their students, especially if they get free meals. Hospitals when you're sick and need it most, don't give out plant based meals.
> 
> It's not easy, cheap and accessible to all. Sometimes we have to fight for it and that's wrong. As more people go plant based, it will become more normal and easier, but at the moment it's not imho.


i agree I think this is slowly changing some schools are growing their own produce and using it in their school dinners (an inner city London school I forget the name) we did offer vegan free school meals but they were a work in progress.

whenever I tell people I'm trying to follow a plant based diet they tell me I don't need to lose weight I try to explain it's not a diet to lose weight. I do think there is more literature out there now.

I first came accross this diet plan when investigating good diets for ultra marathon runners. It's quite well used in the ultra community a lot of people use food rather than painkillers. (Pineapple has anti inflammatory properties.) I've taken an interest as a runner.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rona said:


> I ate very well on a lot less than that for 3+ years when I was struggling to pay Alfies vet bills


Worked out how much I could pay for a decent balanced diet and it came out to £3.28 a day. That includes 6 types of veg, two types of fruit, beans and a little meat. This is winter food, summer food is even cheaper at £2.46

When I was poorer than now, my diet wasn't as balanced, though I still had plenty of veg, fruit is more expensive, I think some days I fed myself on £2-2.50 a day


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Yes I know how much protein a banana has .It's not enough for breakfast. It also has 14 g of sugar. I think we've already agreed the banana isn't a bad thing...as far as it goes, which isn't far.
> 
> As for the link, lol. it reads :
> 
> ...


LOL all you want, Dr. Garth Davis is a respected practicing medical doctor:
https://missionhealth.org/provider-finder/profile/51799
Garth P. Davis, MD, FACS, FASMBS, graduated Phi Beta Kappa from the University of Texas in Austin where he was the Student Government President and was recognized as the most outstanding student at UT. Dr. Davis went on to attend medical school at Baylor College of Medicine and graduated in the top 10 percent of his class. In addition, he was inducted to the Alpha Omega Alpha Medical Honor Society. Dr. Davis completed his surgical residency at the prestigious University of Michigan in Ann Arbor where he was elected to the position of Chief Administrative Resident. He then started his career in Houston, Texas where he established The Davis Clinic and was an assistant professor of surgery at The University of Texas-Houston. He is certified by the American Board of Surgery and is a Fellow of the American College of Surgeons and a Fellow of the American Society for Metabolic and Bariatric Surgery. He is also boarded in medical management of obesity. Dr. Davis is the author of two books: Proteinaholic: How Our Obsession with Meat Is Killing Us and The Expert's Guide to Weight-Loss Surgery. Having spent 17 years in the field of surgical and medical weight management, Dr. Davis is a recognized expert in initial bariatric procedures as well as revisional bariatric surgery, and he is frequently asked to give lectures to both patient and physician audiences.

I've met him in person, he is a genuinely kind, caring person who really wants to help people. He's not selling anything other than his book, and actually when I met him he was doing a talk for free and not selling his book.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> I love butter beans.


me too ! i dont know anyone else who does.

When I was a child , we would always have a proper Sunday roast dinner even though we didn't have much money,
The rest of the week we would have things like Summer County Margarine ( ugh! ) instead of butter ,


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> me too ! i dont know anyone else who does.
> 
> When I was a child , we would always have a proper Sunday roast dinner even though we didn't have much money,
> The rest of the week we would have things like Summer County Margarine ( ugh! ) instead of butter ,


I remember having a roast dinner as a child when my mum and dad were together, but not after my parents separated when I was nearly 10. I don't remember having one every week even before the split.

I can eat butter beans in anything: casseroles, curry's or just as a side dish. They are my favourite bean.

We had margerine too, that's probably why I don't use any spread at all now.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> We had margerine too, that's probably why I don't use any spread at all now.


I grew up with margarine too, I preferred to do without. Until I went to college. There, in the dining hall, I discovered the wonders of whole milk and real butter. What a revelation!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sacremist said:


> I remember having a roast dinner as a child when my mum and dad were together, but not after my parents separated when I was nearly 10. I don't remember having one every week even before the split.
> 
> I can eat butter beans in anything: casseroles, curry's or just as a side dish. They are my favourite bean.
> 
> We had margerine too, that's probably why I don't use any spread at all now.


I love butter beans! My favourite way of eating them is in a garlicky white sauce. Unfortunately they're the one bean you can't buy in Hungary and I haveto ask my DIL to send them from the UK.

As a child I couldn't stand the flavour of margerine and neither could my father which probably why we always had butter


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I grew up with margarine too, I preferred to do without. Until I went to college. There, in the dining hall, I discovered the wonders of whole milk and real butter. What a revelation!


I do like butter but I gain weight easily so I can't have it. ☹


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

lorilu said:


> Survive, sustain, "just fine" does not necessarily mean healthy. Was any balance considered in those diets? Quality of life matters too, in my opinion.
> 
> Someone mentioned it's all just what you are used to eating. Maybe. Not in my case.
> 
> ...


I also told my sister about this conversation (it was a long hike!) She remembered the meals as I described but she liked them, isn't that funny? She, too, grew up with eating disorders, but her issues were a bit different from mine. Sugar isn't her drug of choice like it is mine. Like me, she also has had to learn how to not eat for comfort but her go to was things like bread and chips (also things we almost never had in the house), rather than sweets.

We both, over the years have learned a lot about food and how to eat to keep us healthy and functioning, and how to control those food addiction problems, and she agrees with me that a banana is not an adequate breakfast.  Better than no breakfast at all, certainly, but adequate, no.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

lorilu said:


> I also told my sister about this conversation (it was a long hike!) She remembered the meals as I described but she liked them, isn't that funny? She, too, grew up with eating disorders, but her issues were a bit different from mine. Sugar isn't her drug of choice like it is mine. Like me, she also has had to learn how to not eat for comfort but her go to was things like bread and chips (also things we almost never had in the house), rather than sweets.
> 
> We both, over the years have learned a lot about food and how to eat to keep us healthy and functioning, and how to control those food addiction problems, and she agrees with me that a banana is not an adequate breakfast.  Better than no breakfast at all, certainly, but adequate, no.


I'm not a breakfast person and certainly a banana would be more than adequate for me. Half a banana would be better ..... and even better......... forget the banana, I'd rather have a small slice of toast and marmalade! I'm fine then until lunchtime


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I often have a banana or two for breakfast but usually only as a way to sustain me if I’m eating out for lunch or dinner. That helps me stick to a sensible daily calorie intake overall.

Some nutrition but low in calories so as part of my healthy eating programme to lose excess weight they work well.

A banana wrapped in a slice of whole meal seeded bread is more filling ime.

My 23 year old son has one chopped on top of a bowl of porridge in the mornings but wouldn’t be satisfied for long with them on their own.

Good for a mid morning/afternoon snack too


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

lorilu said:


> I also told my sister about this conversation (it was a long hike!) She remembered the meals as I described but she liked them, isn't that funny? She, too, grew up with eating disorders, but her issues were a bit different from mine. Sugar isn't her drug of choice like it is mine. Like me, she also has had to learn how to not eat for comfort but her go to was things like bread and chips (also things we almost never had in the house), rather than sweets.
> 
> We both, over the years have learned a lot about food and how to eat to keep us healthy and functioning, and how to control those food addiction problems, and she agrees with me that a banana is not an adequate breakfast.  Better than no breakfast at all, certainly, but adequate, no.


I'm assuming you don't mean it to, but I find your post (the one you're quoting especially) a little insulting which is why I ignored it the first time. 
Commenting that you grew up eating the way I apparently feed my family, and that it gave you and your sister eating disorders sounds like it's suggesting my own children will end up the same.

I'm forever getting dragged in to conversations I don't want to partake in about how I choose to feed my family. I'll just say this. 
You don't know how my kids eat, you have only small snapshots of what I choose to share on here. 
My children are allowed to eat whatever they want, they are normal teens who eat fast food when they're out with their friends, but as it happens, they also like eating at home and enjoy what I and their dad make and choose that more often than not.

I'm sure I'm screwing them up somehow, I would not be a normal parent if I weren't. However I really don't think choosing to feed them nutrient rich, non-processed, whole food meals made at home is harming them.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I'm assuming you don't mean it to, but I find your post (the one you're quoting especially) a little insulting which is why I ignored it the first time.
> Commenting that you grew up eating the way I apparently feed my family, and that it gave you and your sister eating disorders sounds like it's suggesting my own children will end up the same.
> 
> I'm forever getting dragged in to conversations I don't want to partake in about how I choose to feed my family. I'll just say this.
> ...


Nah, it wasn't personal at all. Well maybe a little. You did come across a bit "holier than thou" you know. 

But really it's only that reading your description triggered the memory. Our issues came from deprivation. I am sure I made that clear. We didn't eat whatever we wanted, we had no choice but to eat what was in the house. And mostly what was in the house was unlabeled cans and dried goods that had to be cooked and usually soaked (the beans). And it was usually cooked all together in a pot, and served until it was gone. In the summer we had fresh tomatoes because my mother loved a tomato garden (but in those days I didn't like tomatoes of course, though everyone else did).

There certainly wasn't any fast food fun with friends, there wasn't any money for that.  My older sister and I used to steal food stamps from my mother's purse and take them to the local "corner store". The old owner there let us buy candy with them even though he most likely knew we didn't have permission to use them that way. Small town, he knew who we were.

I remember once, mortifying, getting caught stealing a candy bar, not from that mom and pop store, but from the other one, the one my mother usually shopped at. It was bigger and more prosperous and I was sent with money to get some groceries and stole the candy bar on my way out. The owner's son chased me down the street (he was an adult) and accosted me. Mortifying experience. I'll never forget it. I was 10.

My younger sister, whom I was with yesterday, remembers the big pot of mixed things, rice and beans, tomatoes and what all, but she liked them.

Incidentally, anything non perishable that could have been easily eaten, bread for example, even fresh fruit, was kept in the back of my mother's car, brought to work with her each day. If she didn't, a week's worth of food would have been gone in a day with five growing hungry kids alone at home. So you can see...we did not eat whatever we wanted, when ever we wanted.

While I no longer "steal sweets" (for many adult years I continued to buy things like bags of candy bars and hide them from myself, then get up in the middle of the night and eat them) I still ration food. I probably always will.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sounds like your upbringing def left you with issues around food and poverty @lorilu. I think thats quite common TBH, interesting that you mention eating disorders as I was just reading the other day that hoarding can be another condition with its roots in a very deprived childhood. I can see why that might make you more bias towards simpler ways of eating (there is a big difference between having to eat that way and wanting to!).
Personally I grew up without alot but we were lucky in that my parents had a decent sized garden and green fingers so there was plenty of fruit and veg (also mother was a pretty good cook who knew how to stretch things!). My father would shoot and fish too so we were mostly covered with most things. Plus I had tons of cousins so can clearly remember the excitement of getting a bin bag full of new (to me!) clothes or toys! Not to mention we did alot of scrumping and dumpster diving as kids. 
I have trouble eating simpler just because Im abit of a pig though!:Shy Like I didnt really need that sausage and onion pizza and Ben and Jerrys takeaway last night but apparently Im crap at budgeting both my taste buds and my finances!LOL:Hilarious


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> Sounds like your upbringing def left you with issues around food and poverty @lorilu. I think thats quite common TBH, interesting that you mention eating disorders as I was just reading the other day that hoarding can be another condition with its roots in a very deprived childhood. I can see why that might make you more bias towards simpler ways of eating (there is a big difference between having to eat that way and wanting to!).
> Personally I grew up without alot but we were lucky in that my parents had a decent sized garden and green fingers so there was plenty of fruit and veg (also mother was a pretty good cook who knew how to stretch things!). My father would shoot and fish too so we were mostly covered with most things. Plus I had tons of cousins so can clearly remember the excitement of getting a bin bag full of new (to me!) clothes or toys! Not to mention we did alot of scrumping and dumpster diving as kids.
> I have trouble eating simpler just because Im abit of a pig though!:Shy Like I didnt really need that sausage and onion pizza and Ben and Jerrys takeaway last night but apparently Im crap at budgeting both my taste buds and my finances!LOL:Hilarious


This in a nutshell. The thread asks 'is veganism a privilege ? I would say in the uk no it has become easier and easier to do loads of alternatives every restaurant or pub has an option.

I go back to my sister who is an artist so skint lives on a mostly healthy vegan diet. However like @catz4m8z she enjoys the sweet stuff including vegan Ben and Jerrys. Being vegan is far more mainstream even my tiny village shop does oat milk.

Now the diet @O2.0 follows in my mind is a plant based diet. Slightly different to vegan I have researched this diet as part of my attempt to run a 50 mile race. Most of the research suggests the plant based diet is the healthiest diet to follow for attempting this level of training.

I don't think @O2.0 is being holier than thou I think she has found something that works and wants to share it.

I do love food and sometimes fall of the cheese wagon and definitely eat to much sugar. I like reading these threads as it gives me a kick up the but to try again.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> Sounds like your upbringing def left you with issues around food and poverty @lorilu. I think thats quite common TBH, interesting that you mention eating disorders as I was just reading the other day that hoarding can be another condition with its roots in a very deprived childhood. I can see why that might make you more bias towards simpler ways of eating (there is a big difference between having to eat that way and wanting to!).
> Personally I grew up without alot but we were lucky in that my parents had a decent sized garden and green fingers so there was plenty of fruit and veg (also mother was a pretty good cook who knew how to stretch things!). My father would shoot and fish too so we were mostly covered with most things. Plus I had tons of cousins so can clearly remember the excitement of getting a bin bag full of new (to me!) clothes or toys! Not to mention we did alot of scrumping and dumpster diving as kids.
> I have trouble eating simpler just because Im abit of a pig though!:Shy Like I didnt really need that sausage and onion pizza and Ben and Jerrys takeaway last night but apparently Im crap at budgeting both my taste buds and my finances!LOL:Hilarious


We hated those bags of clothes. Tiny community, the clothes we wore often belonged to the other kids and they let us know it. Thing is, I didn't really know we were "poor" until years later, when I was a senior in high school. When I was in the 5th grade I had on a skirt and blouse that I thought was very cute but when I walked into the classroom the class mean girl yanked on my skirt and said "you look like you stepped out of the salvation army box..oh right, you did, that's my skirt" and her and her friends sniggered.

Years later I was telling my friend Bill about that and he said he remembered the incident. I said what did you think and he said "well I knew you were poor so I figured she was telling the truth" It was the first time I had ever thought of us in terms of "poor".

Aside from my issues with food though...well that and supplies in general. I usually have at least two of every thing, food included, (always have several packages of toilet paper in the house, something we ALWAYS ran out of) I don't care much about clothes except that I refuse to shop in thrift stores for them. No second hand clothes for me.But I hardly ever buy anything new. My clothes are mostly 30 or more years old. But they are MINE. 

I guess we've gotten a bit off track here lol


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

lorilu said:


> We hated those bags of clothes. Tiny community, the clothes we wore often belonged to the other kids and they let us know it. Thing is, I didn't really know we were "poor" until years later, when I was a senior in high school. When I was in the 5th grade I had on a skirt and blouse that I thought was very cute but when I walked into the classroom the class mean girl yanked on my skirt and said "you look like you stepped out of the salvation army box..oh right, you did, that's my skirt" and her and her friends sniggered.
> 
> Years later I was telling my friend Bill about that and he said he remembered the incident. I said what did you think and he said "well I knew you were poor so I figured she was telling the truth" It was the first time I had ever thought of us in terms of "poor".
> 
> ...


Funny you should say that, I'm a hoarder of non perishable food too. Also light bulbs, toilet paper etc., I never thought about why till now. I'm always well stocked with goods we need because I don't want to run out. Lol!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

lorilu said:


> We hated those bags of clothes. Tiny community, the clothes we wore often belonged to the other kids and they let us know it. Thing is, I didn't really know we were "poor" until years later, when I was a senior in high school. When I was in the 5th grade I had on a skirt and blouse that I thought was very cute but when I walked into the classroom the class mean girl yanked on my skirt and said "you look like you stepped out of the salvation army box..oh right, you did, that's my skirt" and her and her friends sniggered.
> 
> Years later I was telling my friend Bill about that and he said he remembered the incident. I said what did you think and he said "well I knew you were poor so I figured she was telling the truth" It was the first time I had ever thought of us in terms of "poor".
> 
> ...


I think we have because food is such an emotive subject.

My sister never really lectured me about veganism I would ask and she would explain the exact practices used in the dairy industry. The next day I trotted home with organic milk and she explained 'they still have to take the calf away from the mum' this miffed me she was raining on my parade. I then found oatly barista milk and was a happy lady.

We grew up with little money and the same as you I didn't realise we were poor until years later now I speak to my mum I know she didn't eat so we could. I never went hungry we ate loads of fruit very little sweets. We had meat once a week with a roast.

I am passionate we really need education around food. So many people are lacking in vitamins and obesity related illness on the rise. I think even if people ate plant based a few days a week it would make a difference.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I don't think @O2.0 is being holier than thou I think she has found something that works and wants to share it.


Thank you  
And yes, for me at least it has been the absolute best thing as far as distance running, but honestly as far as simply feeling really good.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

This is a great book loads of plant based recipes and really made me think about what I put in my body. I try again for 50 in February and my running food will include plenty of bananas!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> My sister never really lectured me about veganism I would ask and she would explain the exact practices used in the dairy industry. The next day I trotted home with organic milk and she explained 'they still have to take the calf away from the mum' this miffed me she was raining on my parade.


This is one thing that really grinds my gears. Those holier than thou vegetarians that do it for "animal welfare" that still drink milk or eat cheese. I have to explain to them that a dead animal no longer feels pain or distress , whereas the dairy cows still do.
Oddly most that I've tried to educate, seem to blank off, it's like sticking your fingers in the ears and saying lalala. If they can't hear it it's not happening


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

OK I'll ask
What's the difference between 
a plant based diet
And
A vegan one


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> Funny you should say that, I'm a hoarder of non perishable food too. Also light bulbs, toilet paper etc., I never thought about why till now. I'm always well stocked with goods we need because I don't want to run out. Lol!


Yep,


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

rona said:


> This is one thing that really grinds my gears. Those holier than thou vegetarians that do it for "animal welfare" that still drink milk or eat cheese. I have to explain to them that a dead animal no longer feels pain or distress , whereas the dairy cows still do.
> Oddly most that I've tried to educate, seem to blank off, it's like sticking your fingers in the ears and saying lalala. If they can't hear it it's not happening


I'm embarrassed to admit I was vegetarian for years and never realised how horrific the dairy industry is.

It was only when I took an interest in my sisters diet and she showed me some videos and explained what happened. (Dairy is scary)

It is in many ways worse than the meat industry.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

mrs phas said:


> OK I'll ask
> What's the difference between
> a plant based diet
> And
> A vegan one


In my mind I could be wrong.

A vegan diet is all about animal welfare. For example my sister wears no animal products, is very concerned about the toiletries she uses. However she will enjoy vegan ice cream and chocolate. She will eat processed vegan foods like pizza. You could be a vegan but eat chips and Oreo all day.

Plant based is still concerned at animal welfare but is focused on health. Everything where possible is cooked from a plant sugar is avoided. You will be eating a rainbow diet lots of lentils and pulses. You might select different foods for injuries for example strained ankle eat pineapples. Snacks will be plant based.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> I'm embarrassed to admit I was vegetarian for years and never realised how horrific the dairy industry is.
> 
> It was only when I took an interest in my sisters diet and she showed me some videos and explained what happened. (Dairy is scary)
> 
> It is in many ways worse than the meat industry.


Those videos only show the worst not the norm, but it isn't a nice industry for the animals at all, though many who look after them do their best for their girls


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> This is one thing that really grinds my gears. Those holier than thou vegetarians that do it for "animal welfare" that still drink milk or eat cheese. I have to explain to them that a dead animal no longer feels pain or distress , whereas the dairy cows still do.
> Oddly most that I've tried to educate, seem to blank off, it's like sticking your fingers in the ears and saying lalala. If they can't hear it it's not happening


Im totally with you on this one! My best friend has been vegetarian for over 20 yrs for reasons of animal welfare and yet I cant seem to get her to make the connection with factory farmed dairy or eggs! Drives me nuts that she just sticks her fingers in her ears and yet says she doesnt eat meat coz its cruel!:Banghead



mrs phas said:


> OK I'll ask
> What's the difference between
> a plant based diet
> And
> A vegan one


The first one is a diet and the second one is an ethical and moral belief really. Like had been said plant based diet really just refer to eating whole plant foods exclusively, mainly for health. Veganism is removing anything from your life that has caused animal suffering or exploitation, so animal foods, leather, wool, also visiting zoos or circuses with animals. 
I think the second one is easier to stick to as its based on deeply held beliefs (I know Im rubbish at always eating healthy but damned good at staying away from animal cruelty!LOL)


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

On day 7 of the $5 challenge. Shopping bill including day 8 is £43.82 so works out £5.47 per day. I am over budget but I have had to spend - hypothetically because I already have loads - £5.90 on spices and salt. I cannot buy loose spice here so have to buy in jars.

I have tried to follow everything as faithfully as possible, no idea what Opo Squash is so bought a courgette instead, likewise I cant buy purple potatoes so switched in a sweet potatoe. I draw the line at trying to replicate grits! Google tells me polenta would be my best bet, but not willing to even try I`m afraid  I have stuck with a good old banana and a tablespoon of raisins.

Overall the food is ok, very bland until the introduction of spices but ok. I don't eat breakfast, lunch and dinner but have managed with a bit of creativity combined some meals. 

I am really missing fresh fruit, I have only had bananas and one apple this is way down on my normal fruit intake. This is what makes my normal food bill a lot higher than this I think. I am also aware there are nutrients lacking in this plan, B12 for instance, I assume the author take supplements I don`t so I am possibly more aware of the lack of it in the daily menu plans.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Boxer123 said:


> I don't think @O2.0 is being holier than thou I think she has found something that works and wants to share it.


Oh sure, I didn't mean that comment to be snarky and I do think (hope) she has a sense of humor about herself and her passions otherwise I wouldn't have said it.......I think we all have our moments, when we are passionate about something, when we come across a bit stuffy. I know I do.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Im totally with you on this one! My best friend has been vegetarian for over 20 yrs for reasons of animal welfare and yet I cant seem to get her to make the connection with factory farmed dairy or eggs! Drives me nuts that she just sticks her fingers in her ears and yet says she doesnt eat meat coz its cruel!:Banghead
> 
> The first one is a diet and the second one is an ethical and moral belief really. Like had been said plant based diet really just refer to eating whole plant foods exclusively, mainly for health. Veganism is removing anything from your life that has caused animal suffering or exploitation, so animal foods, leather, wool, also visiting zoos or circuses with animals.
> I think the second one is easier to stick to as its based on deeply held beliefs (I know Im rubbish at always eating healthy but damned good at staying away from animal cruelty!LOL)


I think it's more complicated than that even? 

Some people eat a vegan diet for their own health reasons, rather than animal welfare so leather, etc. is not excluded.

Same with some vegetarians and pescatarians.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> Some people eat a vegan diet for their own health reasons, rather than animal welfare so leather, etc. is not excluded.


ah ha! But if you are buying leather then you arent a vegan! You would be following a plant based diet. Vegans do not support animal cruelty in any way, shape or form so diet is just an aspect of their belief system not the whole thing.
Its kinda like how you can be teetotal and not drink alcohol the same as a Muslim but that wouldnt make you Muslim! Its an all or nothing kind of thing!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Lunch today consisted of:

Mange tout
Sugar snap peas
Green beans
Asparagus
Baby corn
Tenderstem Broccoli
Beetroot salad
Avocado
Olives
Tomatoes roasted with basil
Halloumi cheese

Blanched for a few minutes in hot water, drained and left to cool then dressed in a honey and mustard vinaigrette.

Remove the halloumi and I'm almost vegan. Love my veggies!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sacremist said:


> Lunch today consisted of:
> 
> Mange tout
> Sugar snap peas
> ...


That looks amazing halloumi I must confess is often my cheese downfall.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I eat a mainly plant based diet, although i dont eat rice, pasta, lentils or legumes. I only eat a certain type of bread (malt/molasses free whole grain rye) , and only once or twice a week.

I eat meat probably once or twice a year at most, and i havent touched fish for ages. I have milk in my coffee (hate all alternatives, and couldnt afford them anyway), and the only other dairy product i have is greek yoghurt.

Not eating meat has certainly reduced my grocery costs, but eating a healthy diet that provides all i need (non meat based protein, Omega 3,6 and 9 etc) is costly. I dont have access to a budget supermarket either. As such i only eat once a day, except for fruit.

I think a well rounded vegan diet, with lots of fresh food, and a nice variety (i would eat blueberries everyday if i could - they are a once a month treat due to the stupid cost of them) IS out of the reach of so many. Just like filet steak and lobster are. Tinned stuff is vile, and frozen is hit and miss. Ive cut out a lot, and reduced even more, but i wouldnt be prepared to go down the tinned route. I like my veg fresh. Wouldnt touch tinned fruit with a barge pole.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> I think a well rounded vegan diet, with lots of fresh food, and a nice variety (i would eat blueberries everyday if i could - they are a once a month treat due to the stupid cost of them) IS out of the reach of so many.
> 
> Wouldnt touch tinned fruit with a barge pole.


I blame instagram and Youtube for giving people false expectations! Watching those you could be forgiven for thinking that if you arent eating 14 different types of fruit a day, making wheatgrass smoothies and storing all your food in Mason jars then you suck at life!:Hilarious

Also *takes Nonnies' bargepole and slides all tinned fruit her way*rool
I love it! Bought tinned pears the other day to make a chocolate and pear loaf cake....smooshy pears are by far the best in a cake!:Woot


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> I blame instagram and Youtube for giving people false expectations! Watching those you could be forgiven for thinking that if you arent eating 14 different types of fruit a day, making wheatgrass smoothies and storing all your food in Mason jars then you suck at life!:Hilarious
> 
> Also *takes Nonnies' bargepole and slides all tinned fruit her way*rool
> I love it! Bought tinned pears the other day to make a chocolate and pear loaf cake....smooshy pears are by far the best in a cake!:Woot


I dont look at food stuff/pictures online, but i did, and still do, a lot of research about nutrition, sources, and alternatives when i reduced my animal products, and heavily processed foods (which i NEVER eat anymore). Trying to get a well rounded diet that provides everything you need (without taking supplements, although im forced to now), is really quite hard. Probably why so many people eat ready meals, and fortified products. I dont consume anything that has added stuff like salt, sugar, chemicals etc. Nothing processed, and very rarely anything that has more than 4-5 ingredients. I mostly make everything i eat from single produce. Some food stuffs are just too expensive though - i would love to eat a wider variety of vegetables, but i generally stick to three that firstly i can afford, and secondly that agree with me and arent starchy.

My diet is probably very limited (and boring), especially as i eat the same thing 6 days a week (weds is nut butter day!) but i eat what i can afford.

Tinned fruit is probably fine for an ingredient, but just to eat? Nope. Nope, nope, nope.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> ah ha! But if you are buying leather then you arent a vegan! You would be following a plant based diet. Vegans do not support animal cruelty in any way, shape or form so diet is just an aspect of their belief system not the whole thing.
> Its kinda like how you can be teetotal and not drink alcohol the same as a Muslim but that wouldnt make you Muslim! Its an all or nothing kind of thing!


A vegan diet relates only to food. When eating out I ask for the vegan menu but I'm not "a vegan".

Being a vegan covers food and all other aspects.

That's my take on it


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> A vegan diet relates only to food. When eating out I ask for the vegan menu but I'm not "a vegan".
> 
> Being a vegan covers food and all other aspects.
> 
> That's my take on it


I suppose it makes it easier for Joe Public to understand. Still sounds weird to me though....like sticking to a halal or kosher diet when you are an aetheist!!LOL:Hilarious


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> A vegan diet relates only to food. When eating out I ask for the vegan menu but I'm not "a vegan".
> 
> Being a vegan covers food and all other aspects.
> 
> That's my take on it


I thought we had gone way past the holier than though attitudes with Vegan being a way of life...

That a vegan diet is just that a diet and why you don't eat animal products is really your choice etc, before it was all a bit Meat is murder etc...

Now vegan is looked as a way to be healthy, but too many vegan products are substitutes for fast food, etc which is this really what vegan is about at the end of the day? I don't eat lamb because of the cruelty but that's fine I still eat shepherd's pie because it has a replacement/substitute seems quite odd to me.

Vegan menus tend to be on the whole foods, plant based diets per se, long gone has just risotto for the vegetarian/vegan and long shall it continue.

I wouldn't know anyone who followed a diet for religious purposes who isn't religious so I don't get that analogy at all. In fact to say something like that is pretty naive unless you are sharing in a celebration, but then in anything with food we all have likes and dislikes so to me it wouldn't matter joining in a friends Eed celebration it's not me changing diet at all.

I also think that diet is often the last thing to change. Many people have been socially aware and some have looked at the bigger picture of animal cruelty in things like toiletries for a long long time. It's always been deeper than a bunny symbol.

Am guessing every little helps in animal welfare.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> I wouldn't know anyone who followed a diet for religious purposes who isn't religious so I don't get that analogy at all.


I get it. Imagine if you lived in an area which is traditionally populated by one religion and all the shops were owned and run by people of that religion. If you chose to shop locally you would be eating a diet with all the rules and restrictions of that religion. Doesn't make you a member of that religion because there's more to membership than diet.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> I get it. Imagine if you lived in an area which is traditionally populated by one religion and all the shops were owned and run by people of that religion. If you chose to shop locally you would be eating a diet with all the rules and restrictions of that religion. Doesn't make you a member of that religion because there's more to membership than diet.


Most religious diets though have certain rules per se, you could live in a region where halal meat was prominent doesn't mean you have to buy it or eat it, probably would make you a vegetarian by force rather than want per se but there are always choices. I don't know, I quite happily ate plant based, vegetarian at work if the only meat was halal that was available...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> Most religious diets though have certain rules per se, you could live in a region where halal meat was prominent doesn't mean you have to buy it or eat it,


No you don't have to buy it or eat it but if you choose to do so you don't magically become Moslem just as if you eat a kosher diet you aren't automatically Jewish. By the same token there are people who eat a vegan diet but don't follow all the tenets of a strict vegan which would include all animal products.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I'll happily eat shepherds pie or burgers and sausages that are made out of meat substitutes-because they _aren't_ meat.

It's the ingredients that matter to me not what it resembles.

I think these foods help people transition away from meat based meals as they look familiar.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> I'll happily eat shepherds pie or burgers and sausages that are made out of meat substitutes-because they _aren't_ meat.
> 
> It's the ingredients that matter to me not what it resembles.
> 
> I think these foods help people transition away from meat based meals as they look familiar.


It always seems to be staunch meat eaters that are offended by fake meats products though. Ive never understood why it matters TBH.
I like cherry flavoured things but hate cherries...you like what you like!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> It always seems to be staunch meat eaters that are offended by fake meats products though. Ive never understood why it matters TBH.
> I like cherry flavoured things but hate cherries...you like what you like!


The same people that dont bat an eyelid when they tuck into some flame grilled steak flavoured crisps that clearly state on the packet 'suitable for vegetarians'.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> I'll happily eat shepherds pie or burgers and sausages that are made out of meat substitutes-because they _aren't_ meat.
> 
> It's the ingredients that matter to me not what it resembles.
> 
> I think these foods help people transition away from meat based meals as they look familiar.


I see the benefit of the transition but to me the ingredients matters too...

It worries me what is in some vegetarian substitutes. Even looked into them as my son eats them, The McCartney family must make a nice lump sum from me but its not something I would eat...

I would rather use the beans, legumes and have that as a substitute any day. To me that's easier, more cost effective any day and on the health side and also less packaging if you can source them.

Which is where I am more in say O2.0 side over this and woukd rather look at diet as plant based than vegan any day of the week.. I mean mycoprotein as a selling point for quorn doesn't sound brilliant to me.. Linda McCartney soya which is often an allergen not brilliant either.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> I see the benefit of the transition but to me the ingredients matters too...
> 
> It worries me what is in some vegetarian substitutes. Even looked into them as my son eats them, The McCartney family must make a nice lump sum from me but its not something I would eat...
> 
> ...


I just meant that the ingredients are NOT meat 

It might say, resemble a rasher of bacon but it's not pig.....


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 414612
> This is a great book loads of plant based recipes and really made me think about what I put in my body. I try again for 50 in February and my running food will include plenty of bananas!


I've listened to a lot of Scott Jurek's interviews on podcasts but have yet to read that book. I did read Rich Roll's "Finding Ultra" which I found really inspiring. It's not just about food choices, but overcoming alcoholism.



mrs phas said:


> OK I'll ask
> What's the difference between
> a plant based diet
> And
> A vegan one


My take is that vegan is a ethic, a philosophy. I don't call myself vegan, some of it gets too extreme for me, to the point of not making sense. For example people who keep backyard chickens as pets and treat them kindly, I see no issue with eating those eggs (other than the health issue). And I can't wrap my head around not eating those eggs and instead buying some highly packaged, processed, refrigerated egg replacement concoction in the name of ethics.

Whole Food Plant Based eating is exactly what it says. You eat the plant food whole (not highly refined or processed). I find it very uncontroversial in its basic form. We all know we need more fruits and veggies, whole grains and pulses. Eat more of them. We also know that processed, packaged, prepared foods are not good for you. Eat less of them, even if they're labeled vegan.

I will say that a "vegan" diet can get very expensive, especially if you're eating processed, packaged, big company marketed foods.
All I was trying to say at the beginning of this thread is that you don't have to eat that way to eat vegan.








Granted, the right side is more a whole food plant based diet to my mind.



rona said:


> Oddly most that I've tried to educate, seem to blank off, it's like sticking your fingers in the ears and saying lalala. If they can't hear it it's not happening


Happens in all areas really. You can lead a horse to water and all that... People will only listen when they're ready to hear, which is why I've never liked the "in your face" forceful approach in any movement.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Nonnie said:


> (hate all alternatives, and couldnt afford them anyway)


Make your own! I refuse to buy processed, packaged, refrigerated, full of additives and preservatives plant milks when I can throw a handful of nuts in the blender, add our own well water and have delicious 'milk' for coffee, to cook with, bake, etc. Even my teens prefer my home-made cashew milk to store bought plant milks.



lullabydream said:


> but too many vegan products are substitutes for fast food, etc which is this really what vegan is about at the end of the day?


I don't have any idea what vegan is all about to be honest, but it does bother me that we're trying to replicate fast food with vegan options. The whole fast food industry is a problem, going from factory farmed meat fast food to vegan processed frankenfood fast food seems more like a lateral move to me. Granted I know this is going to make me sound holier than thou, and even more so when I respond to the quote below! 



catz4m8z said:


> It always seems to be staunch meat eaters that are offended by fake meats products though.


Nah, I haven't eaten meat since the 80's and I'm not a fan at all of fake meat products. My kids eat them, OH eats them, honestly, I can't stand pretty much any of them. My daughter likes a store bought quinoa and black bean burger that I'll eat, but the one made to taste like they are meat? Ugh :Yuck
When I stopped eating meat there was no quorn, Linda McCartney, boca, morningstar etc., etc. You just ate food. That's what I've always been used to. The thought of a meat "replacement" doesn't click for me because I don't eat any meat that needs replacing if that makes sense. And I don't like the taste, smell, or texture of meat, so anything trying to replicate that is gross to me. 
So yep, go ahead and accuse me of being on my high horse, I'm not, but I know it sounds like it.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Granted, the right side is more a whole food plant based diet to my mind.
> 
> Happens in all areas really. You can lead a horse to water and all that... People will only listen when they're ready to hear, which is why I've never liked the "in your face" forceful approach in any movement.


Thing is, that might be true forr the area the person who made that chart lives in. Here (in general), the fresh ingredients that would be expensive items, whilst the processed food would be cheaper.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Regarding price, like a lot of things, is a 'postcode' or maybe even a 'country' lottery.

For some people / countries / even areas/postcode (countryside/town/city and just what shops you have, if you have a (private) garden or can have a allotment, and even if you can drive/how far you can travel/how much time you have) meat, processed food etc is cheap and 'whole foods' or 'peasent food' (as @O2.0 describes it) is expensive, or the other way round, 'whole foods' are cheap or/and you can grow your own or you know people that grow their own and meat etc is expensive.

Edited to add: round here meat and processed food is cheap, fruit, veg etc is expensive. We can't grow own veg or fruits around here and there isn't much choice when it comes to shops.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

ForestWomble said:


> Regarding price, like a lot of things, is a 'postcode' or maybe even a 'country' lottery.
> 
> For some people / countries / even areas/postcode (countryside/town/city and just what shops you have, if you have a (private) garden or can have a allotment, and even if you can drive/how far you can travel/how much time you have) meat, processed food etc is cheap and 'whole foods' or 'peasent food' (as @O2.0 describes it) is expensive, or the other way round, 'whole foods' are cheap or/and you can grow your own or you know people that grow their own and meat etc is expensive.
> 
> Edited to add: round here meat and processed food is cheap, fruit, veg etc is expensive. We can't grow own veg or fruits around here and there isn't much choice when it comes to shops.


I think you completely correct with this. 
This is why I am finding it so interesting following the $5 per day challenge, obviously can only be very loosely compared as I am UK based and the author is from the USA but things like cashews for instance are so much more expensive for me. 
Even within the UK the differences on how people can shop are huge. I shop local because that fits in with my daily life but this restricts what I can buy and how much it costs. If I want to go further afield I have to factor in travel and time and of course have the money available to buy much more otherwise I`m not going to travel there just for a couple of items. 
I find fresh fruit and some veg are expensive, for the last week I have only brought bananas and one apple so spent very little of the £53.65 on fruit, when I finish the challenge I will be back to buying a lot more fruit and more variety of veg, I am going to find my food bill increases somewhat!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Whilst we're on the topic ..........

*The Daily Mash*

*Vegan who eats eggs has a stupid name for it and you're about to hear it*
27th August 2019









*A WOMAN who shuns all meat and dairy products apart from eggs has a special term for her particular form of food weirdness.*

Eleanor Shaw has been 'basically vegan' for the past five months after watching a documentary on Netflix that featured a lot of graphs about American farming techniques and climate change.

Shaw said: "Being a vegan feels like the right thing for the planet and the kind of conversations I like to have, but I also really need eggs because I like them.

"It can be hard for people to get their heads around my seemingly arbitrary eating habits, so I like to make it sound like a thing by calling myself an 'eggvegan'.

"That's pronounced 'egvigan'. I originally called myself an 'oeufan', a blend of 'vegan' and the French for egg, but people didn't understand it for some reason.

"Now I'm an eggvegan all my fried egg sandwiches, omelettes and eggy soldiers are totally fine and logical. Let's save Mother Earth, one plate of scrambled egg at a time."

Shaw's mother Jane, who had to adapt all her meal plans when Eleanor went home for the weekend, commented: "I don't drink, apart from two large glasses of wine every day.

"Does that make me a version of teetotal? I think so. I'm an 'alcototaller'."


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

She’s not Vegan.

Simples 

Not sure why she needs a name for it tbh


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> She's not Vegan.
> 
> Simples
> 
> Not sure why she needs a name for it tbh


The Daily Mash is a satire site  She's not Vegan, she's fictional


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Jesthar said:


> The Daily Mash is a satire site  She's not Vegan, she's fictional


Oops! Not paying attention 

Plonker! :Facepalm


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Oops! Not paying attention
> 
> Plonker! :Facepalm


But a very nice plonker


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Apparently, in today’s world we can call ourselves whatever we like and identify with, so satire or not who are we to argue!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Apparently, in today's world we can call ourselves whatever we like and identify with, so satire or not who are we to argue!


Unless of course you are a white, female/male heterosexual, who eats meat and doesn't believe* all *the hysteria on social media


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I got told off on a vegan FB group as I described myself as 'vegan-ish' as I occasionally eat an egg from my chickens. Luckily a man told me I wasn't 'allowed' to call myself that & then gave me a list of labels he said I was 'allowed' to use ….. 

I told him I didn't realise he was in charge of the vegan labels that week & I could call myself whatever I wanted! Tbh I couldn't care less what people call themselves really, people get so het up about labels. In some ways they can be useful but then in other ways we have all different interpretations. Some vegans seem to think you can't be vegan if you buy an animal or even own a pet so not really useful if we all have different understandings.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

At the end of the day, we are all individuals who have the right to eat in whatever way we choose - healthy or not.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I got told off on a vegan FB group as I described myself as 'vegan-ish' as I occasionally eat an egg from my chickens. Luckily a man told me I wasn't 'allowed' to call myself that & then gave me a list of labels he said I was 'allowed' to use …..
> 
> I told him I didn't realise he was in charge of the vegan labels that week & I could call myself whatever I wanted! Tbh I couldn't care less what people call themselves really, people get so het up about labels. In some ways they can be useful but then in other ways we have all different interpretations. Some vegans seem to think you can't be vegan if you buy an animal or even own a pet so not really useful if we all have different understandings.


I use vegan-ish as well  
Most people don't know what WFPB is, and vegan-ish is more understandable in general conversation.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Sacremist said:


> Apparently, in today's world we can call ourselves whatever we like and identify with, so satire or not who are we to argue!


I call myself .....
Sharon
Anyone who wants to argue with that, can start a seance and speak to my mother


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> I call myself .....
> Sharon
> Anyone who wants to argue with that, can start a seance and speak to my mother


Im going to call you Shazza


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Im going to call you Shazza


oi!
you will get a slap! layful


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> oi!
> you will get a slap! layful


:Hilarious


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Interesting article about British chickpeas, available very soon
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/foodanddr...-ever-commercial-crop-of-chickpeas/ar-AAGvUd4


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jonescat said:


> Interesting article about British chickpeas, available very soon
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/foodanddr...-ever-commercial-crop-of-chickpeas/ar-AAGvUd4


I think it was you who also shared some info about quinoa being grown in the UK?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes that was me - I am trying very hard to source my food here - for food miles, to prevent the Amazon burning on my account and to keep farmers in productive work


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