# Cesar Millan under investigation.



## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan Under Investigation For Possible Animal Cruelty | NBC Southern California

Saw this on another Dog Forum.
Have never been a fan of his or his methods of training.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

About time........reckon he'll be cleared though, money talks and all that. All it'll do is give him more publicity


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Its been discussed in this thread

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/this-is-one-of-the-best-responses-yet.423374/

and there is a petition link in this one

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/petition-to-ban-cm.423626/page-2#post-1064484502


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Cesar is a complete moron at times; I've seen him randomly thump dogs for no reason on many occasions.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

TehSnoipah said:


> Cesar is a complete moron at times; I've seen him randomly thump dogs for no reason on many occasions.


Come off it, he doesn't thump dogs!

His methods may be unpopular on this forum but there's no denying that he is a man who has dedicated his life to the rehab of problem dogs (and owners) and there must be hundreds of dogs out there that owe him their second chances, even their lives.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> Come off it, he doesn't thump dogs!
> 
> His methods may be unpopular on this forum but there's no denying that he is a man who has dedicated his life to the rehab of problem dogs (and owners) and there must be hundreds of dogs out there that owe him their second chances, even their lives.


I'd be interested if you could explain what his methods are and how they work to actually help dogs.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Codiemalamute said:


> Come off it, he doesn't thump dogs!
> 
> His methods may be unpopular on this forum but there's no denying that he is a man who has dedicated his life to the rehab of problem dogs (and owners) and there must be hundreds of dogs out there that owe him their second chances, even their lives.


No he sets them up to fail - why does anyone put a dog that has killed two pigs in with pigs? why does anyone provoke a dog with resource guarding issues until it bites him? Seriously would you let him near your dog?


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Codiemalamute said:


> Come off it, he doesn't thump dogs!
> 
> His methods may be unpopular on this forum but there's no denying that he is a man who has dedicated his life to the rehab of problem dogs (and owners) and there must be hundreds of dogs out there that owe him their second chances, even their lives.


If were a dog... Which obviously I'm not but I'm sure people will get what I'm saying... I'd rather be pts than spend my life shut down and petrified of the next tsst or alpha roll and and have to feel like I owe my life to someone who thought that was a good way of teaching me...


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

Don't know what he was thinking with the pig thing, still haven't watched it though.

Anyway, I don't like his prong collars or shock collars either, but on the other hand he has helped, probably thousands of dogs that have come to him as a last resort when all else failed. He also has a pack of written off dogs at his centre at LA that would otherwise be at the Bridge. 

Who among us can claim that before we all queue up to destroy the guy?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Saying what CM does "works" is like saying eating nothing but iceberg lettuce and diet coke "works" to lose weight.

A lot of things "work", but at what cost? With what fall-out? And for how long before the old habits return and the behavior comes back - often in much more complicated versions than before?



Codiemalamute said:


> He also has a pack of written off dogs at his centre at LA that would otherwise be at the Bridge.


Let's qualify that though. 
Remember Holly the resource guarding lab?
She is now a permanent resident at his DPC by his own admission. He not only failed to resolve a very common, very fixable issue, but he made it *worse* to the extent that the dog lost her home. 
Holly was never a "written off" dog, she was a victim of completely incompetent handling that lost her her home. 
How many Hollys are there are the DPC I wonder?


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

I don't remember Holly so can't really comment but have seen a lot of the shows.

The mantra for CM is calm assertive energy and that has some merit IMO. How many times have you seen (unless cleverly edited) a dog going crazy on the end of a lead held by it's owner and same dog calmly walking by with CM on the end of the lead? A lot of the time the actual rehab is done to the owners.

I just feel that some people act as though he just batters dogs into submission which is just not the case.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Codiemalamute said:


> Don't know what he was thinking with the pig thing, still haven't watched it though.
> 
> Anyway, I don't like his prong collars or shock collars either, but on the other hand he has helped, probably thousands of dogs that have come to him as a last resort when all else failed. He also has a pack of written off dogs at his centre at LA that would otherwise be at the Bridge.
> 
> Who among us can claim that before we all queue up to destroy the guy?


"Helped" dogs? No, any dogs that actually were "helped" by this bully are nothing but broken spirited shells of dogs. I certainly wouldn't want my dog abused by him or someone like him, regardless of the problem the dog was experiencing. His show is popular because people love to watch violence, as long as it is done to other people, or other animals, besides their own..

You know, like those cop shows.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Codiemalamute said:


> I don't remember Holly so can't really comment but have seen a lot of the shows.
> 
> The mantra for CM is calm assertive energy and that has some merit IMO. How many times have you seen (unless cleverly edited) a dog going crazy on the end of a lead held by it's owner and same dog calmly walking by with CM on the end of the lead? A lot of the time the actual rehab is done to the owners.
> 
> *I just feel that some people act as though he just batters dogs into submission which is just not the case.*


That is *-exactly-* the case.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> I don't remember Holly so can't really comment but have seen a lot of the shows.
> 
> The mantra for CM is calm assertive energy and that has some merit IMO. How many times have you seen (unless cleverly edited) a dog going crazy on the end of a lead held by it's owner and same dog calmly walking by with CM on the end of the lead? A lot of the time the actual rehab is done to the owners.
> 
> I just feel that some people act as though he just batters dogs into submission which is just not the case.


What does calm assertive energy even mean though? 
It doesn't mean anything. Dogs behave better for people with more dog experience because those people have more dog experience. And in CM's case I would just say that lack of behavior does not equal well behaved. 
Any knuckle dragger can intimidate a dog in to not doing anything, and yes, that is exactly what CM does, fear and intimidation to create a dog who doesn't do anything. 
It takes finesse to actually create a shared language with a dog and a system of communication (training) and a relationship based on trust and respect. That is emphatically not what CM does at all.

By the way, you still haven't explained what CM's methods are? "Calm assertive" is not a method.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

ouesi said:


> What does calm assertive energy even mean though?
> It doesn't mean anything. Dogs behave better for people with more dog experience because those people have more dog experience. And in CM's case I would just say that lack of behavior does not equal well behaved.
> Any knuckle dragger can intimidate a dog in to not doing anything, and yes, that is exactly what CM does, fear and intimidation to create a dog who doesn't do anything.
> It takes finesse to actually create a shared language with a dog and a system of communication (training) and a relationship based on trust and respect. That is emphatically not what CM does at all.
> ...




It is a way of teaching the owners how to behave around their dogs instead of transferring nervousness, tension etc. I think that teaching the owners to lead their dogs by example in a balanced, calm and confident way is a good method.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Codiemalamute said:


> Don't know what he was thinking with the pig thing, still haven't watched it though.
> 
> Anyway, I don't like his prong collars or shock collars either, but on the other hand he has helped, probably thousands of dogs that have come to him as a last resort when all else failed. He also has a pack of written off dogs at his centre at LA that would otherwise be at the Bridge.
> 
> Who among us can claim that before we all queue up to destroy the guy?


Personally having watched the video of Holly @ouesi refers to above I think I'd rather she was at the Bridge than living out her life with him and I very very rarely say that.

You didn't answer - would you let him near your dog?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> It is a way of teaching the owners how to behave around their dogs instead of transferring nervousness, tension etc. I think that teaching the owners to lead their dogs by example in a balanced, calm and confident way is a good method.


You're still not describing a method. You're simply repeating the same mumbo jumbo he does, that doesn't really mean anything. It sounds good, but what does that actually look like in practice? Can you describe how one would go about not "transferring tension" to a dog?

Going back to my iceberg lettuce and diet coke analogy.
It's not sustainable long term, so what then? After the weight is lost, what happens when the person eats a normal diet.
In CM terms, what happens when the dog habituates to the *tsst* noise and the claw hands to the neck. Or worse sensitizes to them? Then what?


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Here's Holly - looked it up as I'd not seen it myself...

I watched it with the sound off (oh watching tv) but the basic jist is that there was no need for him to touch her at that point and he deserved what he got. Then it's all "oh poor Cesar got bitten, get him water and saline etc." "bad dog"..... when really they should have let him get an infection.....


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## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

Codiemalamute said:


> Don't know what he was thinking with the pig thing, still haven't watched it though.
> 
> Anyway, I don't like his prong collars or shock collars either, but on the other hand he has helped, probably thousands of dogs that have come to him as a last resort when all else failed. He also has a pack of written off dogs at his centre at LA that would otherwise be at the Bridge.
> 
> Who among us can claim that before we all queue up to destroy the guy?


Rather a dog of mine go to the bridge than at one of his centre's!!!!!!


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

ouesi said:


> You're still not describing a method. You're simply repeating the same mumbo jumbo he does, that doesn't really mean anything. It sounds good, but what does that actually look like in practice? Can you describe how one would go about not "transferring tension" to a dog?
> 
> Going back to my iceberg lettuce and diet coke analogy.
> It's not sustainable long term, so what then? After the weight is lost, what happens when the person eats a normal diet.
> In CM terms, what happens when the dog habituates to the *tsst* noise and the claw hands to the neck. Or worse sensitizes to them? Then what?


I thought that I had explained it. By asking an owner that might be excitable or nervous to calm down and display confidence when leading. I can't really put it into any simpler terms than that. He will also advise when to offer affection or to ignore behaviour and is educating the owner.

The aim is surely to achieve long term success by changing the owners behaviour.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Personally having watched the video of Holly @ouesi refers to above I think I'd rather she was at the Bridge than living out her life with him and I very very rarely say that.
> 
> You didn't answer - would you let him near your dog?


If I had a serious problem with one of my dogs that would require the help of a behaviourist I would research the best way forward.

I'm not saying that Cesar's way is the only way but on the other hand I don't think the guy is the devil. I think he has a natural affinity and understanding with dogs.

I think the field of dog behaviour is one that is evolving and if there is a better way I would choose that one.


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Codiemalamute said:


> I'm not saying that Cesar's way is the only way but on the other hand I don't think the guy is the devil. I think he has a natural affinity and understanding with dogs.


And this is why he has got as far as he has! So many people have said this without considering the consequences of giving this over-inflated buffoon an even bigger bloody ego!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Codiemalamute said:


> I'm not saying that Cesar's way is the only way but on the other hand I don't think the guy is the devil.* I think he has a natural affinity and understanding with dogs.*


I have never seen anything that indicates that in the videos from his shows that I have had the misfortune of watching.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> I thought that I had explained it. By asking an owner that might be excitable or nervous to calm down and display confidence when leading. I can't really put it into any simpler terms than that. He will also advise when to offer affection or to ignore behaviour and is educating the owner.
> 
> The aim is surely to achieve long term success by changing the owners behaviour.


You're still not explaining *how* a nervous owner should calm down. Though to be fair, if you could explain that one, you'd probably be a beacon in the psychology community  If one could "fix" that as easily as CM seems to think you can, why do doctors even prescribe drugs such as SSRIs etc.

Which is basically my point. Telling a nervous owner to calm down is like telling an overweight patient to just stop being fat. It's not only unhelpful, it's actually rather cruel when you think about it. Not only are you shaming the owner for something they likely really don't have a whole lot of control over, you're blaming them for their dog's issues. Neither is very compassionate nor helpful. And, as evidenced in all the dogs who end up at the DPC, because the "rehab" didn't take; nor is telling the owner to be someone different than who they are effective.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> he has a natural affinity and understanding with dogs.


He has a natural affinity and understanding of how to bully and intimidate. Bullies are very good at choosing their victims and finding their weakness. It's not an affinity with dogs, it's the natural traits of an abuser. I don't say that with malice, BTW, just recognition.


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

ouesi said:


> He has a natural affinity and understanding of how to bully and intimidate. Bullies are very good at choosing their victims and finding their weakness. It's not an affinity with dogs, it's the natural traits of an abuser. I don't say that with malice, BTW, just recognition.


You forget they also have a way of getting people to see "from their side"....


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Rach&Miko said:


> Here's Holly - looked it up as I'd not seen it myself...
> 
> I watched it with the sound off (oh watching tv) but the basic jist is that there was no need for him to touch her at that point and he deserved what he got. Then it's all "oh poor Cesar got bitten, get him water and saline etc." "bad dog"..... when really they should have let him get an infection.....


This is the only episode I have ever watched from start to finish and tbh, it was one episode too much. An absolute muppet could see that bite coming long, long, loooong before it happened. The dog gave plenty of warnings. For a self proclaimed dog whisperer to not pick up on it really doesn't give him much credibility.

That towering stance he does over the dog, the intimidating look on his face, pushing and pushing the dog to react in such a way.. Hardly the "calm, assertive energy" crap he preaches.


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Nettles said:


> This is the only episode I have ever watched from start to finish and tbh, it was one episode too much. An absolute muppet could see that bite coming long, long, loooong before it happened. The dog gave plenty of warnings. For a self proclaimed dog whisperer to not pick up on it really doesn't give him much credibility.
> 
> That towering stance he does over the dog, the intimidating look on his face, pushing and pushing the dog to react in such a way.. Hardly the "calm, assertive energy" crap he preaches.


Said (or typed) far better and less swearily (not a word, I know) than I could have done.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Rach&Miko said:


> Said (or typed) far better and less swearily (not a word, I know) than I could have done.


Lol I'm a very swearily person so it was quite an achievement on my part


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Personally having watched the video of Holly @ouesi refers to above I think I'd rather she was at the Bridge than living out her life with him and I very very rarely say that.
> 
> You didn't answer - would you let him near your dog?


In the video that depicts Hollygate, he clearly thumps her on the side of her face when she first growls at him. So yes, he has thumped at least one dog on television. Personally I have never thumped a dog.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

lorilu said:


> I have never seen anything that indicates that in the videos from his shows that I have had the misfortune of watching.


Agreed. The Holly video is a classic. The dog latched onto his hand after he tried to touch her nose (after punching her in the neck and staring her down seconds earlier). He looks at the camera and says 'I didn't see that coming'.

Hands up who DID see that coming? 

Not an example of someone who has a natural affinity with or an understanding of dogs.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

ouesi said:


> You're still not explaining *how* a nervous owner should calm down. Though to be fair, if you could explain that one, you'd probably be a beacon in the psychology community  If one could "fix" that as easily as CM seems to think you can, why do doctors even prescribe drugs such as SSRIs etc.
> 
> Which is basically my point. Telling a nervous owner to calm down is like telling an overweight patient to just stop being fat. It's not only unhelpful, it's actually rather cruel when you think about it. Not only are you shaming the owner for something they likely really don't have a whole lot of control over, you're blaming them for their dog's issues. Neither is very compassionate nor helpful. And, as evidenced in all the dogs who end up at the DPC, because the "rehab" didn't take; nor is telling the owner to be someone different than who they are effective.


I'm not talking about curing a dog owner of a nervous medical condition, I am talking about asking them to behave in a different less, excitable way, it really is a simple concept.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

He's an illusionist and unfortunately most people that watch his shows don't have enough knowledge of dog behaviour or training to recognise this.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Well well well, apparently he has 24hr to report to investigators http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...on-For-Possible-Animal-Cruelty-371755152.html


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

I stated on the other thread I don't like his methods he is a bully and yes I have seen him punch dogs on his TV show he is making a dog submissive so that makes him look good His methods are totally outdated like the days of your dog does a mess rub its nose in it I don't say this lightly but I imagine if it was my dog I would rather have her PTS than suffer his method of training


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

An affinity and understanding with dogs? I'll just say the same 2 things I say every time this subject comes up.

Affinity... Watching cm I have seen dogs cower, run away, hide under the bed, shake, bite cm, bite someone else, pee themselves, shut down etc. How on earth can anyone who does this to almost every dog they interact with ad said to have an affinity for them??

Understanding... Cm is incompetent even as a basic trainer - he couldn't even teach his own puppy how to sit on cue. He preaches pack theory and blames any and every unwanted behaviour on dominance, both theories which were disproved decades ago and well known among professionals to be false. He thinks it is appropriate for giant breed dogs to be dragged up and down stairs and across slippery floors (at great risk to their health), and uses constricting collars even on delicate toy breeds or brachy breeds despite the huge risks. He knows nothing of learning theory. He clearly doesn't read dogs very well - he frequently misses clear warning signals and signs of stress, often resulting in the dogs biting. 
And my all time favourite - the spitz type dog trapped in a crate with cm looming over him staring. The dog is cowering at the back of the crate, ears back, eyes wide, trembling and cm tells us "he's shaking because he's learning".

Affinity and understanding my bum, he's nothing more than a violent quack abusing dogs and selling magic beans for fame and fortune.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

The statement released by Nat Geo really annoys me.

_*"Millan was working with Simon, a French bulldog/terrier mix, who frequently attacked other animals, including his owner's pet pot-bellied pigs. A short clip from the episode was shared online and showed Simon chasing a pig and nipping its ear, causing the ear to bleed. The clip caused some concern for viewers who did not see or understand the full context of the encounter. The pig that was nipped by Simon was tended to immediately afterward, healed quickly and showed no lasting signs of distress."*_

What is the full context of the encounter that we're not understanding? By their own admission, a dog which has FREQUENTLY attacked other animals was given an opportunity to attack a pig. What more is there to the encounter that will make that acceptable?

Their attitude seems to be because the pig was only scratched, tended to immediately and showed no lasting signs of distress then there's no cause for concern. No mention of how the entire situation should never have been allowed to happened in the first place.

Nat Geo must only acknowledge something as unacceptable and cruel if one animal actually dies or shows long term damage!


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

It's great that it's being investigated but I fear it'll make little difference. As I said in the other thread, this incident is bad but it's just the tip of the iceberg.

I mean, there is a significant catalogue of evidence that his methods are at best punitive and outdated and at worst abusive and potentially dangerous but have they been investigated? No. They have been screened. His methods largely accepted and he has continued to be lauded as a guru.

This incident will be investigated, and he may get a slap on the wrist, but it's just a drop in the ocean of a much bigger problem that has not been, nor probably won't be, addressed properly: here we have a wholly unqualified guy who does not understand or respect dog behaviour being given a huge platform to peddle irresponsible and dangerous advice.

This has been going on for years. That is the main problem. Not just the pig incident.

Of course he is losing support - PaH removing his books, tours being cancelled - but he has not been brought to task enough imo and, although this incident *might* put the spotlight on him for a bit and he *may* lose more support, I really think it won't go far enough and he will bounce back from this and it will be business as usual for the Dog Whisperer and the poor dogs he 'treats'. :Sour


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> He's an illusionist and unfortunately most people that watch his shows don't have enough knowledge of dog behaviour or training to recognise this.


Agree completely. With Willow being reactive dog training comes up a lot in conversation with friends and colleagues. CM always comes up. And without exception has been lauded...except by me...until a few things are pointed out to them.

Like...The reactive jrt no longer barking. With a simple explanation (because I'm no behaviourist so simple is all I'm capable of) that the hard stare away from the trigger may be avoidance and in no way indicative that he is comfortable or non reacting. Or pointing out that punishing a fearful dog will only compound the fear and does nothing to desensitise, which can lead to heightened reactivity, you can see the penny drop.

Another one was a large dog who he was hauling and hanging to the point the dog ended laying panting, exhausted and distressed, was accepted as 'he had to do that. The dog was aggressive and a biter.' Until it was pointed out that CM instigated the entire thing and had that dog been a 'biter' he had many many opportunities to bite but he did not proving that not only was the dog not a biter but he was a dog with remarkable restraint faced with unnecessary and extreme provocation!

When other - better - ways are pointed out the people I've been talking to got it and started seeing his methods differently.

They all just assumed that is what you do with dogs.

I would LOVE for his shows to be removed, edited to include voice overs and inserts by a good behaviourist explaining the potential risks of CM's moves and including better methods. Screen THAT to the masses and see the light bulbs going off. Never going to happen but I can dream...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Codiemalamute said:


> It is a way of teaching the owners how to behave around their dogs instead of transferring nervousness, tension etc. I think that teaching the owners to lead their dogs by example in a balanced, calm and confident way is a good method.


It is. It is a great pity this imbecile doesn't know how to teach the owners. Have you ever seen him teach the owners anything? All I have seen is him wanting to show off.



Codiemalamute said:


> Come off it, he doesn't thump dogs!
> 
> His methods may be unpopular on this forum but there's no denying that he is a man who has dedicated his life to the rehab of problem dogs (and owners) and there must be hundreds of dogs out there that owe him their second chances, even their lives.


That old chestnut again. The only one saying he has been a dog's last chance is him and his production team.



Rach&Miko said:


> If were a dog... Which obviously I'm not but I'm sure people will get what I'm saying... I'd rather be pts than spend my life shut down and petrified of the next tsst or alpha roll and and have to feel like I owe my life to someone who thought that was a good way of teaching me...


So would I.



Codiemalamute said:


> Don't know what he was thinking with the pig thing, still haven't watched it though.
> 
> Anyway, I don't like his prong collars or shock collars either, but on the other hand he has helped, probably thousands of dogs that have come to him as a last resort when all else failed. He also has a pack of written off dogs at his centre at LA that would otherwise be at the Bridge.
> 
> Who among us can claim that before we all queue up to destroy the guy?


If I had the money and the space I would be able to claim the same, except my dogs would not be terrified into submission. Please don't give us that old rubbish about him saving them, either. The only people saying that are him and his team.



Codiemalamute said:


> I don't remember Holly so can't really comment but have seen a lot of the shows.
> 
> The mantra for CM is calm assertive energy and that has some merit IMO. How many times have you seen (unless cleverly edited) a dog going crazy on the end of a lead held by it's owner and same dog calmly walking by with CM on the end of the lead? A lot of the time the actual rehab is done to the owners.
> 
> I just feel that some people act as though he just batters dogs into submission which is just not the case.


Calm assertive energy translates to shut down and terrified. Holly was a nice labrador who had a slight problem with food guarding. The great know all came along and kept baiting that poor dog and taking her food away until she lost her patience and bit him. He then said he didn't see that coming; he was the only one who didn't. Then he told the owners the dog was dangerous and got them to sign her over to him. She wasn't dangerous until he came along and made her so.

Food guarding is one of the easiest problems to either correct or manage, but he couldn't even do that. His own dog doesn't know basic commands because he doesn't have a clue how to teach them. I hope he goes to gaol for animal cruelty.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Codiemalamute said:


> If I had a serious problem with one of my dogs that would require the help of a behaviourist I would research the best way forward.
> 
> I'm not saying that Cesar's way is the only way but on the other hand I don't think the guy is the devil. I think he has a natural affinity and understanding with dogs.
> 
> I think the field of dog behaviour is one that is evolving and if there is a better way I would choose that one.


Natural affinity with dogs? Pull the other one, it's got bells on! He knows sod all about dogs. He doesn't understand basic dog language. When he was trying to get a dog used to a chicken, and had terrified the dog into yawning and turning away, he hit the dog, saying the yawn was threatening. Yawn is a calming signal, turning away is a calming signal. He took a dog who was frightened of the busy town for walk through that busy town with his tail held up by a lead attached to his collar; he had obviously read somewhere that a dog with its tail up is happy.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Nettles said:


> The statement released by Nat Geo really annoys me.
> 
> _*"Millan was working with Simon, a French bulldog/terrier mix, who frequently attacked other animals, including his owner's pet pot-bellied pigs. A short clip from the episode was shared online and showed Simon chasing a pig and nipping its ear, causing the ear to bleed. The clip caused some concern for viewers who did not see or understand the full context of the encounter. The pig that was nipped by Simon was tended to immediately afterward, healed quickly and showed no lasting signs of distress."*_
> 
> ...


See, that depresses me. In my ideal world, where I get what I want by stamping my foot, National Geographic would be investigating this properly - taking his show off in the interim. Consult third party non-biased behaviourists and qualified experts before coming to their conclusion on whether he is a responsible trainer advocating responsible, proven methods.

Not playing down the incident and leaping to the defence of their cash cow.

Tbh I find the TV bosses or whoever it is allowing this peddling of BS more culpable than CM. I'm not out with a pitchfork to flame the guy. I daresay there are much worse trainers out there than CM. Difference is they aren't being given this airtime and adulation like he is.

I mean, would TV execs commission and defend a show featuring a charlatan with no credentials advocating shunning medical treatment and replacing it with long walks in the rain, praying to rainbows in your slippers and a healthy diet to cure themselves? No. Because it's unproven, unquantified and potentially downright dangerous.

Ok, an absurd scenario I grant you lol BUT, point is, if people are given screen time to spout advice it's efficacy and relevance should be researched to the nth degree first.

They really need to tighten up on what's shown when attempting to educate the masses. Surely the station has a duty of care? No? Oh. Ok. It's only teevee, innit. :-(

Such a shame that dog training is so bloody unregulated. That doesn't help I suppose.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Rach&Miko said:


> Here's Holly - looked it up as I'd not seen it myself...
> 
> I watched it with the sound off (oh watching tv) but the basic jist is that there was no need for him to touch her at that point and he deserved what he got. Then it's all "oh poor Cesar got bitten, get him water and saline etc." "bad dog"..... when really they should have let him get an infection.....


Oh God. That's the first time I've seen it and it made me feel ill. Even I could tell what was going to happen if he went towards her again. The poor girl, not only did she get punched in the throat, but kicked in the ribs as well


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> In the video that depicts Hollygate, he clearly thumps her on the side of her face when she first growls at him. So yes, he has thumped at least one dog on television. Personally I have never thumped a dog.


Given the amount of damage they can do to us if the let go of all control, I would say that's a good call. Also the obvious good training reasons etc


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Rach&Miko said:


> And this is why he has got as far as he has! So many people have said this without considering the consequences of giving this over-inflated buffoon an even bigger bloody ego!


Indeed. I'm not out to 'destroy' the guy. It's not a vendetta. And I don't think he's the worst trainer out there but he's the one with platform. And the followers.

It's the Emperor's New Clothes.

Wanting to expose that doesn't mean it should be written off as mindless Cesar-bashing as some his followers like to do (not aimed at anyone here. Elsewhere. It's all fairly civil and reasonable here).


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> I'm not talking about curing a dog owner of a nervous medical condition, I am talking about asking them to behave in a different less, excitable way, it really is a simple concept.


Is it though?
How come it doesn't work then?

Because if all it took was this "calm assertive" mumbo jumbo, how come Mr. Calm Assertive himself gets bitten regularly, gets other animals bitten, loses control of the situation?

Could it be that maybe he doesn't recognize canine body language as well as he thinks he does, and doesn't understand what is going on with dogs as well as he thinks he does?
Could it be that his idea of a "calm submissive" dog is really a dog too afraid and shut down to do anything?
Could it be that his idea of a "relaxed" dog is really a confused and defeated dog who decides to not do anything for fear of being reprimanded?

This is why I say lack of behavior =/= well behaved. 
This is why I say any bully can intimidate a dog in to shutting down * but to really create a relationship of cooperation takes more finesse. Finesse that Mr. Millan sure doesn't have.

* Note Mr. Millan gets to choose which dogs he works with. 
I can think of several dogs I have known personally who don't suffer fools and would not take his handling without having something to say about it. And I'm talking perfectly lovely dogs, just dogs who are super confident, and know they don't have to put up with stupid human behavior.
Note his idea of a "power" breed is the pitbull - arguably the most biddable (and sadly beatable) dog in the universe. Pitbulls are about as forgiving a dog as you can get. 
Try that Cesar Millan $hit on a Fila or Central Asian with correct temperament - heck even a good working line confident Rottie, and tell me how that works out for you...


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Wee T said:


> See, that depresses me. In my ideal world, where I get what I want by stamping my foot, National Geographic would be investigating this properly - taking his show off in the interim. Consult third party non-biased behaviourists and qualified experts before coming to their conclusion on whether he is a responsible trainer advocating responsible, proven methods.
> 
> Not playing down the incident and leaping to the defence of their cash cow.
> 
> ...


I do believe Nat Geo should have a duty of care. It portrays itself as a nonfictional channel. That would imply to me that the programmes it airs are factual. CM shows are nothing more than a self proclaimed "expert" spouting NON FACTUAL and frankly dangerous advice.

The very least the channel could do would be to bring in independent QUALIFIED canine behaviourists to investigate what CM is preaching as fact.

After all, it's not just the dogs on his show who are being failed by this man. I'm sure there are many more people at home watching the show and giving his methods a go with their own dogs. There's no way to hold him responsible for how many dogs in the world are now terrified and shut down while their owners believe them to be "cured" thanks to following CM's advice on a nonfictional tv channel.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Nettles said:


> I do believe Nat Geo should have a duty of care. It portrays itself as a nonfictional channel. That would imply to me that the programmes it airs are factual. CM shows are nothing more than a self proclaimed "expert" spouting NON FACTUAL and frankly dangerous advice.
> 
> The very least the channel could do would be to bring in independent QUALIFIED canine behaviourists to investigate what CM is preaching as fact.
> 
> After all, it's not just the dogs on his show who are being failed by this man. I'm sure there are many more people at home watching the show and giving his methods a go with their own dogs. There's no way to hold him responsible for how many dogs in the world are now terrified and shut down while their owners believe them to be "cured" thanks to following CM's advice on a nonfictional tv channel.


Exactly. That's what I was trying to say and why I'm more pissed off at the TV execs.

Cesar Milan is just a Billy Big Balls who is all hot air and ridiculous macho posturing. I expect no more from him.

The TV station on the other hand I expect MUCH more from. I hold them accountable because THEY gave him credence.

Giving any Billy BullSh*tter credence, an ego and an audience is a very dangerous thing.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I've said it before, and no doubt I will say it many more times...

The fact the CM could not teach his own dogs to sit to cue (Ian Dunbar was kind enough to help him out here I believe) tells me all I need to know about his "natural" affinity with dogs...
Seriously, how in the world could you trust someone to "fix" a serious issue, when there are huge holes in their basic knowledge?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Nettles said:


> The statement released by Nat Geo really annoys me.
> 
> _*"Millan was working with Simon, a French bulldog/terrier mix, who frequently attacked other animals, including his owner's pet pot-bellied pigs. A short clip from the episode was shared online and showed Simon chasing a pig and nipping its ear, causing the ear to bleed. The clip caused some concern for viewers who did not see or understand the full context of the encounter. The pig that was nipped by Simon was tended to immediately afterward, healed quickly and showed no lasting signs of distress."*_
> 
> ...


He didn't chase it anyway; chasing implies the pig was running from him. In reality, the pig was being restrained by a crew member and was unable to move while Simon 'nipped' it. Twice.

Nat Geo must make enough from this guy's shows to defend him in such a patronising way to their viewers. I've never had the TV channel, but I'm glad I don't read their magazines any more.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I've said it before, and no doubt I will say it many more times...
> 
> The fact the CM could not teach his own dogs to sit to cue (Ian Dunbar was kind enough to help him out here I believe) tells me all I need to know about his "natural" affinity with dogs...
> Seriously, how in the world could you trust someone to "fix" a serious issue, when there are huge holes in their basic knowledge?


This tickles me. I've heard this before about his dog not sitting but curious to see it or where it came from.

Reminds me of the CM-esque 'behaviourist' we got for Willows dog reactivity.

After preaching to me that all our problems were down to me not being an assertive pack leader and Willow having no respect for me AND enduring her bragging that she manages 4 dogs and 2 kids easily because she commands respect from all.

Enter her respectful dog. Asked to sit and stay. Well, I had to stifle a snigger as said dog demonstrated her 'respect' by wandering happily all around my street and repeatedly trying to head over to Willow.

In the end I had to offer to hold her dog's lead to keep her from dashing off. And took great pleasure in being so smug.

Willow, by comparison, had been 'disrespecting' me throughout by behaving impeccably and doing absolutely everything I asked of her.

Hilarious! I like to think Willow had a little snigger too.

And even after that rather embarrassing display where absolutely nothing she was spouting matched the behaviour of any dog she STILL bullheadedly ignored that and carried on preaching about pack theory and dominance.

Oh yeah, preach on sister. :Hilarious

Anyway...I'm going away off on one...I'd love to see the CM sit thing.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2016)

Wee T said:


> This tickles me. I've heard this before about his dog not sitting but curious to see it or where it came from.


It's in Millan's Book "Cesar's Rules". There is a chapter named "Junior Learns English as a Second Language." In it Millan describes how Ian Dunbar taught his 2 year old dog (who Cesar has had since the dog was a puppy) how to sit, and down. Cues the dog did not know. Page 163 of the book: "And so Junior has no 'sit', no 'down', no 'stay'."

That blows my mind. Millan has been involved in dogs for how many years now, and never once learned how to teach a dog sit, down or stay? Nor the importance of it? I have two semi-feral cats who have sit cues. Cats for crying out loud. And he hasn't taught his dog to sit?


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

ouesi said:


> It's in Millan's Book "Cesar's Rules". There is a chapter named "Junior Learns English as a Second Language." In it Millan describes how Ian Dunbar taught his 2 year old dog (who Cesar has had since the dog was a puppy) how to sit, and down. Cues the dog did not know. Page 163 of the book: "And so Junior has no 'sit', no 'down', no 'stay'."
> 
> That blows my mind. Millan has been involved in dogs for how many years now, and never once learned how to teach a dog sit, down or stay? Nor the importance of it? I have two semi-feral cats who have sit cues. Cats for crying out loud. And he hasn't taught his dog to sit?


Thanks. Mindboggling. I'm a work in progress when it comes to training but even I managed basic obedience. Its really not rocket surgery!

Even my young children manage sit, down and stay amongst others. I need to speak with Nat Geographic about getting them a show...

Bizarre. Does he give any explanation as to why he couldn't or wouldn't train those cues? Or why it took Dunbar to do it? That's a hell of an admission. Rather confused by this tbh.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Wee T said:


> Exactly. That's what I was trying to say and why I'm more pissed off at the TV execs.
> 
> Cesar Milan is just a Billy Big Balls who is all hot air and ridiculous macho posturing. I expect no more from him.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I kinda stepped all over your point in my ranty attempt at agreeing with you 

I suppose, given the chance, any self proclaimed expert with an inflated ego is going to preach from their pedestal. Those responsible for allowing it to happen are just as equally at fault.

I guess I'm jealous of his millions. I could be Betty Bullsh*tter and declare myself an expert in canine behaviour. I'm already miles ahead of CM as I've taught my dog to sit


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Nettles said:


> Sorry, I kinda stepped all over your point in my ranty attempt at agreeing with you
> 
> I suppose, given the chance, any self proclaimed expert with an inflated ego is going to preach from their pedestal. Those responsible for allowing it to happen are just as equally at fault.
> 
> I guess I'm jealous of his millions. I could be Betty Bullsh*tter and declare myself an expert in canine behaviour. I'm already miles ahead of CM as I've taught my dog to sit


Ah no, no, no. You didn't at all. You just said what I was thinking but I didn't word it well at all. You clarified and elaborated my point  I think its disgusting that any channel would give this unsupported nonsense air time but you made the further - excellent - point that a supposed factual channel would air it, lending it even more credence.

Actually your post has inspired me to make my husband boycott their magazine. I'll make him do anything to right a social injustice. I'm good like that. :Angelic 

ETA: Oh lol. Well I'm after a piece of Mary Berry's pie (figuratively and literally) because I have eaten a bun. Come and get me, UK Food TV.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Wee T said:


> Ah no, no, no. You didn't at all. You just said what I was thinking but I didn't word it well at all. You clarified and elaborated my point  I think its disgusting that any channel would give this unsupported nonsense air time but you made the further - excellent - point that a supposed factual channel would air it, lending it even more credence.
> 
> Actually your post has inspired me to make my husband boycott their magazine. I'll make him do anything to right a social injustice. I'm good like that. :Angelic
> 
> ETA: Oh lol. Well I'm after a piece of Mary Berry's pie (figuratively and literally) because I have eaten a bun. Come and get me, UK Food TV.


Awww poor Mr Wee T (or is he Big T? Oh my.. that makes it sound like I know him in inappropriate ways :Stop)

Well I have a garden so I bet Alan Titchmarsh will be crapping in his flowerbeds once ITV give me a call :Hilarious


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

The other thing that f***s me off is the little subtitle that says "do not attempt this at home without consulting a professional" (or something to that effect) like CM is $%&+£#@* professional?!?! unchunch:Mooning


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Nettles said:


> Awww poor Mr Wee T (or is he Big T? Oh my.. that makes it sound like I know him in inappropriate ways :Stop)
> 
> Well I have a garden so I bet Alan Titchmarsh will be crapping in his flowerbeds once ITV give me a call :Hilarious


 Well, _he _would tell you that it is indeed Big T and he'd also like to think that many many women in NI know him in appropriate ways but unfortunately I know the truth, bless him. Why do you think I spend so much time on here, eh. :Meh





Rach&Miko said:


> The other thing that f***s me off is the little subtitle that says "do not attempt this at home without consulting a professional" (or something to that effect) like CM is $%&+£#@* professional?!?! unchunch:Mooning


Oh now I interpreted that slightly differently. To me that's a disclaimer. Kinda like the 'don't try this at home because it's so utterly moronic you may get brain damage' disclaimer.

National Geographic's admission that perhaps you should not take this advice as it's for entertainment purposes only?

Do any other trainers have such a disclaimer? Stilwell for instance?


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Wee T said:


> Well, _he _would tell you that it is indeed Big T and he'd also like to think that many many women in NI know him in appropriate ways but unfortunately I know the truth, bless him. Why do you think I spend so much time on here, eh. :Meh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I'm sure its to cover any channel that's shows it so if someone gets bitten they can't be culpable... But still drives me batty!

I didn't see it on Stilwell but doesn't mean it wasn't there.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Rach&Miko said:


> Oh I'm sure its to cover any channel that's shows it so if someone gets bitten they can't be culpable... But still drives me batty!
> 
> I didn't see it on Stilwell but doesn't mean it wasn't there.


Uck I know. I think I got a bit carried away with myself and fancied that perhaps NG could see what we see - that CM is a big ole inept numnut but tbh I think it is just a generic disclaimer and not an admission of anything. Boo! :Shifty


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Is it though?
> How come it doesn't work then?
> 
> Because if all it took was this "calm assertive" mumbo jumbo, how come Mr. Calm Assertive himself gets bitten regularly, gets other animals bitten, loses control of the situation?
> ...


You never said a truer word. Even my big, soppy newfies would turn on him if he tried that crap with them, especially Ferdie. Intelligent dogs need to have their intelligence recognised and respected if you are going to get any sort of good response from them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wee T said:


> Thanks. Mindboggling. I'm a work in progress when it comes to training but even I managed basic obedience. Its really not rocket surgery!
> 
> Even my young children manage sit, down and stay amongst others. I need to speak with Nat Geographic about getting them a show...
> 
> Bizarre. Does he give any explanation as to why he couldn't or wouldn't train those cues? Or why it took Dunbar to do it? That's a hell of an admission. Rather confused by this tbh.


It happened on the telly when he had a meeting with Ian Dunbar and brought his new puppy along. He kept yelling at the dog to sit and whatever and Dr Dunbar had to teach him how to teach it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Wee T said:


> This tickles me. I've heard this before about his dog not sitting but curious to see it or where it came from.


This might be a good read  http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-contribution-cesar-millans-new-book

Considering this came from him "Training," says Millan, "only teaches the dogs how to obey commands -- sit, roll over -- it does not have anything to do with dog psychology."

So there ya go...the world famous dog whisperer doesn't even know how important basic training really is - yet people still want to fawn over the man as if he is some demigod


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Got an update re the Change.org petition. It's wordy but thought I'd post here in case anyone interested.

Seem to have got the support and a quote (included below) from the American Humane Association (I've flanked it with ###s to make it easier to find as I can't put it in bold with this device.

Also urging people to contact Animal Legal Defence Fund.

\Quoted update******Open Investigation: Felony Charges

jill breitner

sebastopol, CA

14 Mar 2016 - Hi Everyone,

It's been a hell of a week. We've gotten almost 12.000 signatures. WOOHOO! We're doing great but we have more work to do.

A complaint was filed and an investigation has been opened. National Geographic and Millan have both made statements that what they did with using the pigs as bait for Simon the dog who killed 2 pigs is perfectly ok and a part of the training process. They are spinning the story to be about his methods and that he saves lives of dogs who would otherwise be euthanized.

The law clearly states that using animals as bait is against the law at the state and federal levels and why this investigation was able to be opened.

We also contact the petitioner of the first petition that was not addressed to anyone but a pig lover gathering signatures with no where to go. We have come together and between both petitions we are close to 25K signatures strong.

The American Humane Association was flooded by our calls over the weekend so much that I got a call early Monday to talk about our petition. I spoke with the head of communications and was told that while they are required to be on the set of every movie and tv set where animals were being used in the film they were not required to be on the set of Reality Shows. I was shocked about this and he said that he didn't like it either but that was the case and that he would look into it and get back to me. On Friday that same week they sent a statement to National Geographic:

##### MESSAGE TO NAT GEO REALITY SHOW: ABUSE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE

"Animal abuse is never acceptable, and should never be tolerated.

American Humane Association has received complaints regarding an episode of a Nat Geo reality television series featuring Cesar Millan. As this country's first national humane organization, we are always vigilant about stopping abuse wherever it occurs.

We saw what so many concerned Americans saw in that segment. Clearly, the treatment of the animals did not meet our stringent "Guidelines for the Safe Use of Animals in Filmed Media." American Humane Association oversees the humane treatment of animals around the world with our No Animals Were Harmed® animal welfare program, but sadly we are not invited to protect the animals featured in reality television productions.

We call on the entertainment industry to have American Humane Association on all of their productions with animals, including reality television, so that American Humane Association can ensure that all animals in entertainment are safe and humanely treated.

Situations like this should never, ever happen again. All animals deserve to be humanely treated, and abuse must end now." #####

We are thrilled with this statement and now we must follow through and see what Nat Geo has to say about this.

We need you to contact the Animal Legal Defense Fund. Tell them we need them to enforce the animal cruelty laws on the state and federal levels on Cesar Millan and his show Cesar911.

National Geographic and Millan have come out stating that this is normal procedure for training and nothing happened to the pig so there is nothing wrong. This is all lies. Spinning the story this way is there way of confusing the public and deflecting away from the fact that what they have done is against the law and they need to be prosecuted. Celebrity status doesn't make anyone immune for breaking the law.

Call and email ALDF and demand that they enforce these laws on Nat Geo and Cesar Millan. The website for ALDF are listed below.

Do this now while the investigation is still open. They did it for Michael Vick's dogs. They can do it for all the thousands of animals used as bait for his so called 'training' on Cesar911.

We rocked it in getting an investigation in less that a week but if we don't keep making our voices heard where it matters than all this talk, all this time spent on FB sharing this petition will be for nothing. FB was the beginning now is when the rubber meets the road.

CALL the ALDF now and demand justice and let's get Cesar Millan out of the living rooms of millions of homes and hold Nat Geo accountable. Let's do this for the sake of the animals on all of the Reality Shows in the tv and film industry.

Thanks everyone for your continued support

NOW GO MAKE THAT CALL.

Contact Us - Animal Legal Defense Fund

Contact Animal Legal Defense Fund via email, phone, or mail.

HTTP://ALDF.ORG **** /end quote


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> It happened on the telly when he had a meeting with Ian Dunbar and brought his new puppy along. He kept yelling at the dog to sit and whatever and Dr Dunbar had to teach him how to teach it.


Ah sounds like our trainer.Think that's where that type of 'behaviourist' falls down - they might be able to bully and intimidate a dog into _not_ doing something but it's pretty damn hard to bully a dog into doing something new.

And that's the crux of it - this type of training is not training at all. There's no learning involved. They only know how to quash, repress and shutdown animals. Anyone could do that. But hey, easy money for them.



StormyThai said:


> This might be a good read  http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-contribution-cesar-millans-new-book
> 
> Considering this came from him "Training," says Millan, "only teaches the dogs how to obey commands -- sit, roll over -- it does not have anything to do with dog psychology."
> 
> So there ya go...the world famous dog whisperer doesn't even know how important basic training really is - yet people still want to fawn over the man as if he is some demigod


Thanks. Going to have a cuppa later and have a read of that. Ta!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Meh. He'll get away with it. 

His supporters make me die 

Calm assertive energy. Blah blah meaningless blah. 

Didn't realise he couldn't teach his own dog to sit. Surely anyone with a very very basic knowledge of learning theory could work it out?? 

As for "He doesn't thump dogs" - either you've been watching a completely different show, or you've fallen for the BS which inexplicably manages to convince the hard of thinking that calling a kick a "heel touch" somehow transforms it into something benign


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

The only good thing I can say about him is that he transformed Alan Titchmarsh in my mind from pleasant-but-slightly-dull-garden-gnome-type-chap to fearless-on-a-par-with-Paxo-serious-interviewer.


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Colliepoodle said:


> Meh. He'll get away with it.
> 
> His supporters make me die
> 
> ...


Creased up! So beautifully worded!

"The hard of thinking" :Hilarious


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

I really don't see what he is doing is cruel to dogs. I have only watched a few of his programs but what I have seen seems fine to me . It's the dog that is usually aggressive and he never hits them or cruel to them . And in the end the dog is well trained and seems very happy. And so do the dogs owners . If he didn't do this I think a lot of dogs would end up being pts . The media always blow things up .


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

You don't think kicking, shocking, stringing dogs up until they pass out/soil themselves, intimidating, punching, forcing them into situations they're uncomfortable with, is being cruel? Gosh. Just out of interest, what _would _you consider cruel?

Oh so the dog usually starts it. That's ok then..... except often it doesn't. Like the Husky who Cesar had to kick in the belly to provoke.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jackien4 said:


> I really don't see what he is doing is cruel to dogs. I have only watched a few of his programs but what I have seen seems fine to me . It's the dog that is usually aggressive and he never hits them or cruel to them . And in the end the dog is well trained and seems very happy. And so do the dogs owners . If he didn't do this I think a lot of dogs would end up being pts . The media always blow things up .


You don't think hitting dogs is cruel? You don't think hanging one up by its lead until its tongue turns blue is cruel? You don't think dragging a still growing giant dog up a flight of slippery stairs is cruel? You don't think forcing a dog into a situation that terrifies it is cruel? Don't tell me he never hits them; I have seen it happen loads of times. In the end dog is not well behaved, it is terrified and shut down and so scared he is likely to bite someone. Then he will tell the owner that the dog is dangerous. The dogs are not aggressive until he comes along and makes them aggressive, winds them up until they are aggressive. That isn't cruel in your eyes? What about hiding a shock collar remote in his pocket so nobody, even the owner, knows he is using it. What about making the dog bite his owner because he thinks that sudden shock was caused by her? Dogs are usually aggressive because they are scared and this pillock comes along and makes them more afraid.

How many times do we have to hear his assertion that these dogs would be pts without him? It is bullshit and the only one saying it is him.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Jackien4 said:


> I really don't see what he is doing is cruel to dogs. I have only watched a few of his programs but what I have seen seems fine to me . It's the dog that is usually aggressive and *he never hits them or cruel to them *. And in the end the dog is well trained and seems very happy. And so do the dogs owners . If he didn't do this I think a lot of dogs would end up being pts . The media always blow things up .


There are literally video compilations on Youtube of clips where he's kicking, hitting or otherwise antagonizing dogs needlessly. Try watching without any sound, just focus on the dogs body language and none of the bull he uses to make you think it's okay. He hits dogs.

(fyi, I was utterly BEDAZZLED by CM way back when - watched The Dog Whisperer religiously....then I took an interest in dog behaviour and started studying...and saw all the evidence, and the science based alternatives...now I'd rather he slipped off the face of the earth along with dominance theory and all the others who preach it like it's still relevant)


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Funny how you never see any "Happy Ending" type updates relating to dogs he's "helped". 

Maybe because of the very strict non-disclosure agreement his victims' owners have to sign.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jackien4 said:


> And in the end the dog is well trained and seems very happy.


Are they?
The countless failed "projects" that fill his rehab center suggests otherwise


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Not wishing to be nitpicky but since he's proved he hadn't got a clue how to train his own dog to sit, how on earth can any of the other dogs he messes with end up trained??

The bloke couldn't train ivy up a wall


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Not wishing to be nitpicky but since he's proved he hadn't got a clue how to train his own dog to sit, how on earth can any of the other dogs he messes with end up trained??
> 
> The bloke couldn't train ivy up a wall


I don't think I could do that either, but train dogs? That's something else again. The great tragedy is that people still can't see through him, still think he is wonderful. I have a sister-in-law like that; everyone thinks she's wonderful and I seem to be the only one who can see through her!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Even I could train ivy up a wall and I can usually be relied upon to murder any plant life. 

Ivy - meet wall. Done. 

Cesar would probably whack an ecollar on it.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Jackien4 said:


> I really don't see what he is doing is cruel to dogs. I have only watched a few of his programs but what I have seen seems fine to me .


In fairness, you have seen the sanitised, edited material that the TV executives wanted (allowed) you to see. But heartbreakingly, the evidence of his bad practice is stacking up.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

[QUOTE="Colliepoodle, post: 1064486907, member: 8986"
Cesar would probably whack an ecollar on it.[/QUOTE]

I think you'll find he doesn't use them anymore and does not advise people to use them.


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Colliepoodle said:


> You don't think kicking, shocking, stringing dogs up until they pass out/soil themselves, intimidating, punching, forcing them into situations they're uncomfortable with, is being cruel? Gosh. Just out of interest, what _would _you consider cruel?
> As I said I have only seen a few programs of him. I have never seen him being cruel like hitting kicking a dog. All I have seen is the dog being aggressive or controlling the owner. And C M training him in his way . I would NEVER stick up for someone being cruel or unkind in anyway to a animal .


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Just to let everyone know on here I DO NOT AGREE TO CRUELTY TO DOGS . YOU HAVE NOT READ MY QUOTE . I SAID I HAVE ONLY SEEN A FEW PROGRAMS OF C.M AND HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM BEING CRUEL TO DOGS .


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

Urgh the amount of times I get other less informed in dog behavior dog owners preaching about how to show dogs who's boss and complain about their dogs trying to 'dominate' them from behaviors such as pulling on leash, toileting in the house, etc. I blame CM for that


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Colliepoodle said:


> You don't think kicking, shocking, stringing dogs up until they pass out/soil themselves, intimidating, punching, forcing them into situations they're uncomfortable with, is being cruel? Gosh. Just out of interest, what _would _you consider cruel?
> 
> Oh so the dog usually starts it. That's ok then..... except often it doesn't. Like the Husky who Cesar had to kick in the belly to provoke.


. Yes I do think it is very cruel . But as I said I have never seen him do this as only watched a few of his programs . I wish people would read the posts . And not jump to the wrong conclusion and start accusing other members on here .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jackien4 said:


> . Yes I do think it is very cruel . But as I said I have never seen him do this as only watched a few of his programs . I wish people would read the posts . And not jump to the wrong conclusion and start accusing other members on here .


As you have only seen a few of his programs, surely you are not in a position to judge?

Maybe if you followed your own advice and read the posts on this thread you may be able to see why so many feel he should not be training wet paint, let alone a sentient being


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

I was just making a comment about it all that's all . After reading the posts that I have since read I think it it terrible . There are so many posts on here and I don't have time to sit and read them all in detail. So please don't try and be clever with me love


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Colliepoodle said:


> You don't think kicking, shocking, stringing dogs up until they pass out/soil themselves, intimidating, punching, forcing them into situations they're uncomfortable with, is being cruel? Gosh. Just out of interest, what _would _you consider cruel?
> 
> Oh so the dog usually starts it. That's ok then..... except often it doesn't. Like the Husky who Cesar had to kick in the belly to provoke.





newfiesmum said:


> You don't think hitting dogs is cruel? You don't think hanging one up by its lead until its tongue turns blue is cruel? You don't think dragging a still growing giant dog up a flight of slippery stairs is cruel? You don't think forcing a dog into a situation that terrifies it is cruel? Don't tell me he never hits them; I have seen it happen loads of times. In the end dog is not well behaved, it is terrified and shut down and so scared he is likely to bite someone. Then he will tell the owner that the dog is dangerous. The dogs are not aggressive until he comes along and makes them aggressive, winds them up until they are aggressive. That isn't cruel in your eyes? What about hiding a shock collar remote in his pocket so nobody, even the owner, knows he is using it. What about making the dog bite his owner because he thinks that sudden shock was caused by her? Dogs are usually aggressive because they are scared and this pillock comes along and makes them more afraid.
> 
> How many times do we have to hear his assertion that these dogs would be pts without him? It is bullshit and the only one saying it is him.


Jesus! He did all this? I had no idea he made a habit of being so extreme.

I mean, I knew he was a godawful 'behaviourist' but I honestly didn't know he was so blatantly abusive on a regular basis.

Christ. I didn't like him and signed the petition because of his outdated dominance crap, tsshes and ludicrous veneers - that was all bad enough I thought and quite enough to want him off air...

So begs the question, why is he only being investigated now?? 0

Kicking dogs in the stomach? Whaat!? How has he been getting away with it? What makes this pig incident differen? Why are we only seeing a kick up now? Baffled.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jackien4 said:


> I was just making a comment about it all that's all . After reading the posts that I have since read I think it it terrible . There are so many posts on here and I don't have time to sit and read them all in detail. So please don't try and be clever with me love


I was making a comment about your comment...It is allowed on a public forum!

Please drop your "tone" as there is no need...


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I'm baffled too. 

I think it just goes to show how easily people are fooled and how suggestible. Someone comes along and sounds knowledgeable. He comes out with impressive sounding (but meaningless) buzzwords/phrases like calm submissive, and energy, and a methodology that seems to make sense. 

Nobody looks too deeply into it - it's dramatic to watch and gets good ratings. 

Nobody wants to watch proper training. Let's face it, for the average viewer, watching a dog being systematically desensitised/counter conditioned is about as exciting as watching paint dry. 

Watching Cesar getting mauled week after week is far more entertaining


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Colliepoodle said:


> I'm baffled too.
> 
> I think it just goes to show how easily people are fooled and how suggestible. Someone comes along and sounds knowledgeable. He comes out with impressive sounding (but meaningless) buzzwords/phrases like calm submissive, and energy, and a methodology that seems to make sense.
> 
> ...


True. It would seem that dog training shows only get the go ahead if they are sensationalist or involve dogs flying planes.

Unfortunately Nat Geo was just the channel who actually *could* draw in the right audience for a bog standard, decent, non-dramarama programme on dog behaviour and training. Instead they opted for low brow sensationalism.

I kinda see them on a par with Pick TV now. :Bored


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Wee T said:


> It would seem that dog training shows only get the go ahead if they are sensationalist or involve dogs flying planes.


Aw, I've been enjoying Dogs Might Fly! I don't care if they get as far as the plane or not; I have loved watching the dogs develop their training and confidence


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

JoanneF said:


> Aw, I've been enjoying Dogs Might Fly! I don't care if they get as far as the plane or not; I have loved watching the dogs develop their training and confidence


Ooh I didn't even know it had started. What channel is it on?

Oh here, I know, I was just being flippant. This show isn't comparable to CM. You could argue that the flying part was unnecessary and sensationalist but, yes, it is about training, building confidence, as well as promoting rescue dogs and finding them homes at the end so the dogs (and rescues in general) have all to gain and nothing lose....unlike CM's subjects. Different kettle fish altogether.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I think it's on Sky1 on a Sunday. I just watched the 3rd episode (I recorded it) but it will be on catch up. I really have a soft spot for the collie kelpie cross. Some of the stuff is pure entertainment but there has been some solid basic skills training too. I'm starting Timber on hand touch training this week!


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

JoanneF said:


> I think it's on Sky1 on a Sunday. I just watched the 3rd episode (I recorded it) but it will be on catch up. I really have a soft spot for the collie kelpie cross. Some of the stuff is pure entertainment but there has been some solid basic skills training too. I'm starting Timber on hand touch training this week!


Aww, thanks... I don't have sky...so that's why I haven't even seen it advertised. Will have to take a nosy.

Good luck with the training. Hand touch today, whisking you off to NYC in a private jet tomorrow! If only!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> Colliepoodle said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus! He did all this? I had no idea he made a habit of being so extreme.
> ...


You should look on Youtube, you will find loads of incidents. If he did half these things on a public street, any animal lover would be calling the police and the RSPCA, but because he is on the telly everyone thinks he is great.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Wee T said:


> whisking you off to NYC in a private jet tomorrow!


 as long as Timber isn't at the controls!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

JoanneF said:


> Aw, I've been enjoying Dogs Might Fly! I don't care if they get as far as the plane or not; I have loved watching the dogs develop their training and confidence


Same here. I was so proud of them when they made their film. Although when they showed Wilf flying off down the field with the paddling pool and then trying to hump it, I was crying with laughter


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

JoanneF said:


> I think it's on Sky1 on a Sunday. I just watched the 3rd episode (I recorded it) but it will be on catch up. I really have a soft spot for the collie kelpie cross. Some of the stuff is pure entertainment but there has been some solid basic skills training too. I'm starting Timber on hand touch training this week!


I just started my 2 on Sunday and they're doing brilliantly. It's amazing how quickly they pick it up, although poor Dex kept on trying to high five me to start with


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Whatever you think of CM.. he is ridiculous. As Kikopup shows in this video. My dogs would look at me the same way.. what the hell you doing woman!


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I was making a comment about your comment...It is allowed on a public forum!
> 
> Please drop your "tone" as there is no need...


And I was making a coment about how you are almost accusing me of going along with CM so think you should drop your tone and try not to turn things round


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jackien4 said:


> And I was making a coment about how you are almost accusing me of going along with CM so think you should drop your tone and try not to turn things round


May I suggest you take a step back to actually read what is written and not what you can take offence too?
I am not "almost" accusing you of anything other than being uneductated about CM's "methods" and the fallout from using those methods...which if you remember, you admitted this in your own posts.
I am not trying to turn anything around, and I have no "tone" (it's not me shouting, it's not me calling other posters "love" 
If you can not handle other people reading your posts and then commenting on those posts then maybe a public forum isn't the best place...at the moment you seem intent on trying to start an argument because posters decided to hold you accountable for your own words, which is a tad silly!


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> May I suggest you take a step back to actually read what is written and not what you can take offence too?
> I am not "almost" accusing you of anything other than being uneductated about CM's "methods" and the fallout from using those methods...which if you remember, you admitted this in your own posts.
> I am not trying to turn anything around, and I have no "tone" (it's not me shouting, it's not me calling other posters "love"
> If you can not handle other people reading your posts and then commenting on those posts then maybe a public forum isn't the best place...at the moment you seem intent on trying to start an argument because posters decided to hold you accountable for your own


 I am going to unfollow this thread so there is no need to put on any comments to me . Point taken love


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jackien4 said:


> And I was making a coment about how you are almost accusing me of going along with CM so think you should drop your tone and try not to turn things round


Can we keep it civil please. It is never safe to say things like you can't see where he is cruel on this forum, Jackie. He is cruel, he is a dog abuser and he should be locked up. In some of his programmes, especially the earlier ones, he did nothing but quote common sense. I recall a Newfoundland dog who wouldn't eat; it turned out the owner was cooking him burgers and taking his food to him all over the house. Common sense is all it needed. The other suggestions he made in those earlier programmes were not his idea, but established ideas, like take the dog for a walk every day. But as he has become more famous and been championed by some celebrities who know no better, he has become even more of a bully. Obviously he had it in him to start with.

Just look on You Tube and you will find many examples of his ridiculous idea of dog body language as well as his cruelty. What puzzles me is why the owners are so stupid as to let him carry on. The guy with the chicken did try to object, said: you are frightening him, but the great know all replied that he wasn't, that the dog's body language was threatening not fear and the idiot backed down. I would have thrown him out.


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## Can Dogs Eat (Nov 15, 2014)

Have to say im glad he is finally being investigated for how he treats dogs!


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

komondor_owner said:


> You can't have a rational discussion about CM when there are such extreme views about. The only point of threads like this is so that those who dislike him and his methods can have a big circle-jerk about how right they all are, and if only the rest of the world would listen to them... Not to mention the classy racist remarks about his skin, accent, etc etc
> 
> If you dare to suggest that something CM once suggested on a TV show helped you personally with your dog, then you are literally as bad as Hitler, and you are personally responsible for every dogs suffering in the world. That's how extreme the hatred towards him is from some people.
> 
> All this furore does, is guarantee a ratings boost for the TV show. The producers knew this would happen of course - that's why they chose to include the pig scenes, and cut them in the way they did. Free publicity, provided by the very people who hate CM!


I haven't read any extreme views about him on this thread nor have I read any "classy racist remarks" - what is a classy racist remark by the way? I also haven't seen anyone suggest that anyone who has found something helpful is responsible for every dogs suffering in the world (or as bad as Hitler) - the member who stated she had found a couple of things helpful was asked respectfully what those things were and was not abused in any way for doing so. People have simply pointed out how cruel and deliberately provocative his methods are and suggested that people who think he is OK have a proper look at particular episodes again. How is that not a rational discussion?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

komondor_owner said:


> You can't have a rational discussion about CM when there are such extreme views about. The only point of threads like this is so that those who dislike him and his methods can have a big circle-jerk about how right they all are, and if only the rest of the world would listen to them... Not to mention the classy racist remarks about his skin, accent, etc etc
> 
> If you dare to suggest that something CM once suggested on a TV show helped you personally with your dog, then you are literally as bad as Hitler, and you are personally responsible for every dogs suffering in the world. That's how extreme the hatred towards him is from some people.
> 
> All this furore does, is guarantee a ratings boost for the TV show. The producers knew this would happen of course - that's why they chose to include the pig scenes, and cut them in the way they did. Free publicity, provided by the very people who hate CM!


If saying a Mexican is a Mexican is racist, then I am guilty. Racism is thinking oneself superior because of one's race, not pointing out that this man is an illegal immigrant from Mexico. It has become so just mentioning someone's nationality or colour is regarded as racist by some. A sensible and rational discussion about anything is always difficult when the subject is someone who is doing untold damage, but I for one have had a few good incidents come from reading his book. It was his advice which solved my problem of having my newfie lie down and refuse to move. But the fact is that the majority of his good ideas are not his ideas at all. What we object to in general is his obvious lack of knowledge about dogs and his bullying way of going on, as well as dragging up dominance/pack leader rubbish which we hoped had died out years ago.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

komondor_owner said:


> All this furore does, is guarantee a ratings boost for the TV show.


I don't agree. Whilst I would agree the old adage that all publicity is good publicity is often used to synically manipulate viewers, bad publicity can also destroy and if enough people use the 'animal abuse' words it will be enough to make a production company think twice. Maybe not this time but it will happen. Whilst I would expect better of Nat Geo it will eventually all boil down to money.

Of *course *some things that Cesar advocates work ...upping an exercise routine, using calm, confident (dictionary meaning of assertive) energy, offering fair consistent leadership .... they aren't rocket science. To me personally, where he does fall down is his perpetual reference to dominance which is the core principle of his approach and which, however you dress it up *is wrong/disproved/out of date *and just plain unnessessary in dog behaviour modification.

The bottom line is If they are confident that what they do is ok, no trainer should be fearful of having their methods opened up to scrutiny. Good trainers/behaviourists *want* you try what they teach you at home. Only Mr Millan carries the warning not to.

I'm not even going to give him the credit with having developed this ideology ... it came about following studies in the 40's ..which were later corrected by the very people who undertook those studies....which meant they were first questioned 20 years ago and later (last 10 years +) discredited totally.

And what using other animals as 'bait' to force a dog into a 'submissive state' (sorry, exactly what learning is taking place Mr Milan) has to do with dog behaviour modification ...heaven knows.

J


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> Can we keep it civil please. It is never safe to say things like you can't see where he is cruel on this forum, Jackie. He is cruel, he is a dog abuser and he should be locked up. In some of his programmes, especially the earlier ones, he did nothing but quote common sense. I recall a Newfoundland dog who wouldn't eat; it turned out the owner was cooking him burgers and taking his food to him all over the house. Common sense is all it needed. The other suggestions he made in those earlier programmes were not his idea, but established ideas, like take the dog for a walk every day. But as he has become more famous and been championed by some celebrities who know no better, he has become even more of a bully. Obviously he had it in him to start with.
> 
> Just look on You Tube and you will find many examples of his ridiculous idea of dog body language as well as his cruelty. What puzzles me is why the owners are so stupid as to let him carry on. The guy with the chicken did try to object, said: you are frightening him, but the great know all replied that he wasn't, that the dog's body language was threatening not fear and the idiot backed down. I would have thrown him out.


Yes I agree with you . But as I said this in my first post . I have only watched a few of his programs and that was years ago. I have then read all the posts and agree with how cruel and unkind CM is . I will not watch him on u tube as this is too upsetting for me to watch. The reason that I am getting upset is the fact that some are saying that I don't think he is cruel and making it seem that I am going along with him.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jackien4 said:


> The reason that I am getting upset is the fact that some are saying that I don't think he is cruel and making it seem that I am going along with him.


I'm afraid that is because you a said
"I really don't see what he is doing is cruel to dogs."
and
"If he didn't do this I think a lot of dogs would end up being pts ."

People can only go by what you have said..So instead of shouting and trying to be condescending (calling anyone "love" in the context you did will ever go down well), all you had to say was that after reading the thread properly you have changed your opinion...there was no need to get bent out of shape


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> You can't have a rational discussion about CM when there are such extreme views about. The only point of threads like this is so that those who dislike him and his methods can have a big circle-jerk about how right they all are, and if only the rest of the world would listen to them... Not to mention the classy racist remarks about his skin, accent, etc etc
> 
> If you dare to suggest that something CM once suggested on a TV show helped you personally with your dog, then you are literally as bad as Hitler, and you are personally responsible for every dogs suffering in the world. That's how extreme the hatred towards him is from some people.
> 
> All this furore does, is guarantee a ratings boost for the TV show. The producers knew this would happen of course - that's why they chose to include the pig scenes, and cut them in the way they did. Free publicity, provided by the very people who hate CM!


Oh man, Godwin's law already? We're only 6 pages in! 

I actually do agree with you that sometimes these discussions get stupid and become far more personal than necessary, both towards CM himself and anyone who supports him. This one IMO has stayed relatively mild but of course there is always room for improvement. 
Discuss the methods, explain with clear evidence why they don't work or are ill-advised, and give alternatives. That *should* be how these discussions go, though of course that doesn't always happen. We are human after all 

I also agree that some of what he says is helpful. Exercise your dog? Sure. However, what do you do when you are in the situation I was in in 2009 when we took on a semi-feral giant breed who was infested with heartworms and literally could not exercise at all during treatment?
This is where I get frustrated with his mantras, they're absolute, and they don't allow for the special circumstances that characterize so many dog/owner problems. 
It's ironic to me that the anti R+ brigade often spout "there is no one size fits all training" yet that is exactly what CM advocates. Just be calm assertive and your dog will be calm submissive. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Two dogs may be displaying the same behavior but for entirely different reasons. I'm going to deal with an obnoxious, pushy dog far differently that I'm going to deal with an insecure, fearful dog even though both dogs may be displaying the same behavior. Fear based aggression is far different than territorial aggression or prey drive. He treats all of them the same, and they're not.

Does what he suggests work? Yep, sure does. So does a lot of ill-advised advice. 
Would anyone listen to a fitness guru who said eating nothing but lettuce and drinking nothing but diet coke would help you lose weight? Actually I think some might, and would argue, "but it works!" Which of course it does. Does that mean it's a good idea? 
CM's advice is pretty much of the same genre. Could I tsst and poke my dog in to no longer reacting to things on walks? Sure, and with your average, easy going, resilient dog, that's probably going to "work". 
But there are better ways, so why not advocate for those better ways that don't have as much potential for fall-out?

I mean, a broken clock is still "right" twice a day.....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Considering how many of his fans we have had on this forum, reaching for the smelling salts because we dared to say their hero had no idea what he was doing, this little argument has been mild. One female left everyone red reps (when we had rep points) for everyone who did not agree with her and that was everyone.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Newfiesmum makes a good point, in that EVERYTHING he says that makes sense is either plain old _common_ sense OR stuff that proper dog trainers have been saying for literally years and years.

Whereas EVERYTHING he says that is classed as his particular "way" is complete, utter, makes-it-up-as-he-goes gobbledegook.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2016)

Oh, I also forgot to say, I don't *want* my dog to be "calm submissive" or whatever he wants to call that version of a dog who is just staying out of the way doing nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing.
I understand that some people genuinely prefer that from their dogs, but for me, that is the furthest thing in the world that I want or need from my dogs. 

My dogs have to be able to think on their own, make some decisions on their own, and my job is to give them the tools to be able to do that well. 
When my muttdog is searching for nosework, I am listening to him and deferring to him. When we're out in the woods after dark and my dogs tell me there is something out there, I am listening to them, and deferring to them. 
When my dog comes to me in the middle of the night and refuses to lie back down when I tell him to, I pay attention (and find out a kid has a nosebleed). 

There is no room in an authoritarian relationship with your dog for this kind of interaction. Some of us have higher expectations for our relationships with our dogs.


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I'm afraid that is because you a said
> "I really don't see what he is doing is cruel to dogs."
> and
> "If he didn't do this I think a lot of dogs would end up being pts ."
> ...


You still don't get it do you . I said that in my first post. I have only watched a few programs of his and that was years ago. So stop keep picking on what I am saying. I have since then read all the post and I do agree with the way he is acting is cruel and unkind. So why do you keep going back on my first post. No more posts to me please


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2016)

Jackien4 said:


> You still don't get it do you . I said that in my first post. I have only watched a few programs of his and that was years ago. So stop keep picking on what I am saying. I have since then read all the post and I do agree with the way he is acting is cruel and unkind. So why do you keep going back on my first post. No more posts to me please


I'm just replying because you said not to. 
Sorry, that's how I roll. And a good example of why punishment based methods don't always work the way we think they do, or as well as we think they do.


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I'm just replying because you said not to.
> Sorry, that's how I roll. And a good example of why punishment based methods don't always work the way we think they do, or as well as we think they do.


I was just saying to one person who keeps replying to my posts and picking on the first post I said. I don't agree with cm methods . I have looked into it more now and think it is cruel . So everyone please ignore my first post about him .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jackien4 said:


> You still don't get it do you . I said that in my first post. I have only watched a few programs of his and that was years ago. So stop keep picking on what I am saying. I have since then read all the post and I do agree with the way he is acting is cruel and unkind. So why do you keep going back on my first post. No more posts to me please


Umm you are familiar in how a conversation works right?

Oh and sorry, you don't get to dictate who responds to your posts on a public forum - dear 

Although I am not sure what I am supposed to get? I know what you said, the rest of the forum knows what you said...surely quoting you proves that I know what you said....If you actually read my post you will see that I am not "picking" on what you say, I am *discussing *about what you said and trying to explain why some decided to counter it.

Stop getting all offended over nothing, accept that your first post was made out of ignorance and carry on, there really is no need to keep getting butt hurt, really there isn't!


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> You should look on Youtube, you will find loads of incidents. If he did half these things on a public street, any animal lover would be calling the police and the RSPCA, but because he is on the telly everyone thinks he is great.


It is quite a bizarre phenomenon isn't it. Think I'll pass on the YouTube though - I saw one very distressing one, aside from the pig episode, and that was enough for me.

Tbh most of the clips I have seen are not anywhere near as extreme and I even find them hard to watch because, although not blatantly abusive (well it could be argued either way) still wound me up because his advice was just so bad.

I always ended up involuntarily flinching and shouting at the TV because what he was suggesting was just so damaging...and these didn't even involve kicks or throttling!

Nope not for me. I've seen enough already to convince me of his ineptitude in the field, I'm afraid.



MiffyMoo said:


> Same here. I was so proud of them when they made their film. Although when they showed Wilf flying off down the field with the paddling pool and then trying to hump it, I was crying with laughter


That made me laugh. Think I'm going to have watch this. Wonder if I can watch it online?



MiffyMoo said:


> I just started my 2 on Sunday and they're doing brilliantly. It's amazing how quickly they pick it up, although poor Dex kept on trying to high five me to start with


Ha ha. When we first started this, Willow would sometimes get so excited she got in a tizz and would LAUNCH herself forward, smashing her nose AND paw into my hand.

"Aaargh!! I don't know what this is but there's chicken!! Is it high-5??? Touch?? Omigod! Chicken! Here have both! Cover all bases!!!"



komondor_owner said:


> You can't have a rational discussion about CM when there are such extreme views about. The only point of threads like this is so that those who dislike him and his methods can have a big circle-jerk about how right they all are, and if only the rest of the world would listen to them... Not to mention the classy racist remarks about his skin, accent, etc etc
> 
> If you dare to suggest that something CM once suggested on a TV show helped you personally with your dog, then you are literally as bad as Hitler, and you are personally responsible for every dogs suffering in the world. That's how extreme the hatred towards him is from some people.
> 
> All this furore does, is guarantee a ratings boost for the TV show. The producers knew this would happen of course - that's why they chose to include the pig scenes, and cut them in the way they did. Free publicity, provided by the very people who hate CM!


I think that's rather unfair. You mention it's impossible to have a rational discussion because of extreme views and yet you only mention the view on one end of the spectrum. Circle-jerk? Hitler? Really? Charming. 

So, yeah, I'd actually agree, it IS difficult to have a balanced discussion because often people who oppose CMs methods are rudely or snidely dismissed as being hysterical or circle-jerking.

Sure, he's divisive and can invoke extreme views but, tbh, where you see posts here as extreme or circle-jerking, I see them as unsurprising; a forum frequented by animal lovers and some very knowledgeable people don't agree with oft controversial and punitive training based on debunked theories? C'mon, of course most aren't going to be a fan of CM.

Hardly fair to gloss over the reasoned posts and dismissively label detractors as engaging in public w*nking. :Wtf

And as for Godwin's. Oh, shoosh. 



Jackien4 said:


> I was just saying to one person who keeps replying to my posts and picking on the first post I said. I don't agree with cm methods . I have looked into it more now and think it is cruel . So everyone please ignore my first post about him .


I think that's fair enough. 

I wasn't aware of the extent of it either. I already had misgivings about the potential damage he could do without even knowing just how hands (and feet) on he is.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

And then we have others that like to just pop in to stir the pot for the fun of it 

Human behaviour really is fascinating...I don't think we will agree with why that is tho


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

komondor_owner said:


> Some of these threads are just like watching badly behaved dogs at the park.
> You have the aggressive pack leaders swooping in for the kill when they spot weakness, with their gang members "liking" every post they make, you have the submissive dog telling people to leave them alone, and being ignored... Fascinating stuff





StormyThai said:


> And then we have others that like to just pop in to stir the pot for the fun of it
> 
> Human behaviour really is fascinating...I don't think we will agree with why that is tho


Ack, tbf, I'd say most of us here are as much of an authority on human behaviour as Yer Man is on dog behaviour.  

I've enough trouble making sure my slippers are on the right feet without analysing the psyche of internet strangers


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

komondor_owner said:


> Some of these threads are just like watching badly behaved dogs at the park.
> You have the aggressive pack leaders swooping in for the kill when they spot weakness, with their gang members "liking" every post they make, you have the submissive dog telling people to leave them alone, and being ignored... Fascinating stuff


I've never been in a gang and never to intend to be, oh apart for the gang of one that speaks up for my dogs, for other people's dogs and highlights cruelty and abuse. There is a perfectly good ignore button if anyone feels they no longer wish to read a particular member's posts and a report button should anyone feel posts should be reviewed by a moderator.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jackien4 said:


> I was just saying to one person who keeps replying to my posts and picking on the first post I said. I don't agree with cm methods . I have looked into it more now and think it is cruel . So everyone please ignore my first post about him .


Well done for doing your research. I used to think that jan fennel who had a tv programme in the 90s was the bees knees and i had all her books. It was explained to me on a forum why her method wasnt the best so i did more research and i coul see why she was wrong.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I'm just replying because you said not to.


How mature!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Wee T said:


> That made me laugh. Think I'm going to have watch this. Wonder if I can watch it online?


You can if you subscribe to NowTV. It's only £6.99 a month



Wee T said:


> "Aaargh!! I don't know what this is but there's chicken!! Is it high-5??? Touch?? Omigod! Chicken! Here have both! Cover all bases!!!"


Hahaha, exactly! I discovered that Dex will sell his left paw for Waitrose Deli Sausages with Tripe and Venison. He gets so overexcited he is exactly like that. Poor Lola is a little bit slower on the uptake and gets frustrated, so there's a lot of me sitting with my hand held out whilst she yawns a lot and sniffs her bum. Eventually she remembers and very tentatively touches. When I say "yes" she looks SO pleased with herself


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> How mature!


How observant!

Of all the posts on here, that is the one you choose to take umbrage with? 
Interesting.... 

Yep, these threads are definitely an interesting observation of human behavior and different forum personalities


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

komondor_owner said:


> Some of these threads are just like watching badly behaved dogs at the park.
> You have the aggressive pack leaders swooping in for the kill when they spot weakness, with their gang members "liking" every post they make, you have the submissive dog telling people to leave them alone, and being ignored... Fascinating stuff


Your analogy of pack leader only proves that you know as much about dogs as Cesar Millan, which is probably that they have four legs and very little else. I hope your submissive dog analogy (another big mistake) does not mean me. I am only trying to avoid having to close this thread. There is always one close minded fanatic who cannot think for themself nor see past the hype. We, on the other hand, know dogs.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> You can if you subscribe to NowTV. It's only £6.99 a month
> 
> Hahaha, exactly! I discovered that Dex will sell his left paw for Waitrose Deli Sausages with Tripe and Venison. He gets so overexcited he is exactly like that. Poor Lola is a little bit slower on the uptake and gets frustrated, so there's a lot of me sitting with my hand held out whilst she yawns a lot and sniffs her bum. Eventually she remembers and very tentatively touches. When I say "yes" she looks SO pleased with herself


 lol.

Rubbing a treat or bit of chicken on my palm beforehand certainly helped. She was straight in there to investigate and as soon as her nose hit she got her treat. She LOVES that one. There's nothing tentative about our Willow. :Joyful


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> How observant!


 Why, thank you 



> Yep, these threads are definitely an interesting observation of human behavior and different forum personalities


Absolutely, I could write a book about it though I expect that's already been done.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Well done for doing your research. I used to think that jan fennel who had a tv programme in the 90s was the bees knees and i had all her books. It was explained to me on a forum why her method wasnt the best so i did more research and i coul see why she was wrong.


Jan Fennel would be hilarious if her techniques were harmless. She's absolutely bonkers


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> Some of these threads are just like watching badly behaved dogs at the park.
> You have the aggressive pack leaders swooping in for the kill when they spot weakness, with their gang members "liking" every post they make, you have the submissive dog telling people to leave them alone, and being ignored... Fascinating stuff


And here you have the 'Resident Supporter of Backyard Breeding' swooping in for the kill when they spot an opportunity to derail a thread and stir up trouble.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Jan Fennel would be hilarious if her techniques were harmless. She's absolutely bonkers


I was just about to say the same. She was a totally ridiculous woman; she told people whose dogs pulled not to take them out then. Dogs don't need walking apparently.


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> Always the charmer! Dear oh dear what sort of hope do your dogs have...
> 
> If daring to suggest that responsible Cockapoo breeders exist brands you a "Supporter of Backyard Breeding", then you have some very strange ideas. But we already knew that


Is that the a royal we? I dont find that Sweety has strange ideas


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Is that the a royal we? I dont find that Sweety has strange ideas


Me neither whereas I do find the anti rescue dog person has some very strange ideas indeed.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Well done for doing your research. I used to think that jan fennel who had a tv programme in the 90s was the bees knees and i had all her books. It was explained to me on a forum why her method wasnt the best so i did more research and i coul see why she was wrong.


When I first got Kes a friend gave me one of her books and it was nuts. I wasn't clued up but knew instinctively that it was idiocy. He claimed that using the advice had 'cured' his dog of food aggression and guarding years before...last time I visited he was guarding his bed and couldn't be near any visitors due to that. Good cures!


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Me neither whereas I do find the anti rescue dog person has some very strange ideas indeed.


Aahh....'kay, so an anti-rescue, pro-CM, pro-BYBer on a pet forum.

How contrary.

Well, I've never seen that on the Internet before...


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> Always the charmer! Dear oh dear what sort of hope do your dogs have...
> 
> If daring to suggest that responsible Cockapoo breeders exist brands you a "Supporter of Backyard Breeding", then you have some very strange ideas. But we already knew that


Well, if you remember, the "Responsible Cockapoo Breeder" had a litter of pups from her young bitch, delivered by C Section, and wanted to mate her again at her following season.

Back to back litters from a young bitch who couldn't deliver normally.

There was only you thought that was okay and only you encouraged her.

If my having the opposite opinion is "strange" in your World, I'm fine with that.


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Well it was an interesting discussion while it lasted.


Wee T said:


> an anti-rescue, pro-CM, pro-BYBer on a pet forum.


Careful now, you don't want to be accused of imaginary racism. I believe the politically correct term is TROLL.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

I want him off our screens for another reason, his teeth are too white, they actually glow with whiteness & that's unnatural.... when the sun catches them my eyes burn!

Put the animal cruelty, lack of knowledge etc on the back burner.. this tooth whiteyness should be made a public health hazard! People could develop permanent vision issues from watching his shows...you've all heard of snow blindness? Exactly the same.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Nettles said:


> Well it was an interesting discussion while it lasted.
> 
> Careful now, you don't want to be accused of imaginary racism. I believe the politically correct term is TROLL.


OMG, I can't believe you're even saying that. I'll have you know one of my best friends is a disabled Mexican gay troll. I am, like, _so _PC!!!!!11!!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Wee T said:


> OMG, I can't believe you're even saying that. I'll have you know one of my best friends is a disabled Mexican gay troll. I am, like, _so _PC!!!!!11!!


Aaahahahaaa :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Troll


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2016)

A veterinary behaviorist's response:
http://www.drandyroark.com/one-pig-making-speak-bad-science/

And an oldie but a goodie on leadership skills and what they really look like - apt for the human element on this thread too 
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/leadership-versus-dominance

The car going off the road is such a great analogy.
Reactive training - waiting for the dog to do what you don't want before acting, is the antithesis of leadership. It's backwards training.

The news is saying the investigation is almost wrapped up, so there should be an update later today.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> goodie on leadership skills


I am still surprised how few people know what true leadership looks like  I think we are so deeply conditioned to believe the most aggressive, loudest being is the one to follow, that many just don't question it - which is sad IMO


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> I am still surprised how few people know what true leadership looks like  I think we are so deeply conditioned to believe the most aggressive, loudest being is the one to follow, that many just don't question it - which is sad IMO


You've been watching American politics I take it?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> You've been watching American politics I take it?


Politics full stop...The British are just as bad, we just hide it better


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Oh, I also forgot to say, I don't *want* my dog to be "calm submissive" or whatever he wants to call that version of a dog who is just staying out of the way doing nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing.
> I understand that some people genuinely prefer that from their dogs, but for me, that is the furthest thing in the world that I want or need from my dogs.
> 
> My dogs have to be able to think on their own, make some decisions on their own, and my job is to give them the tools to be able to do that well.
> ...


You may 'defer' to your dogs superior nose or sometimes his judgement, but who is in control?

I would hope it is you otherwise you are a liability to your dogs and to others. The reality is that dogs live in a human world and need human guidance.

Calm assertive/submissive is just the role between owner and dog. You might even apply the same labels between parent and child (often without the calm bit). The owner has a moral and legal duty to be in control of their dog. It's nothing sinister and it certainly doesn't mean dominating your dog into a submissive, shut down, broken spirited shell of a dog that I keep reading.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

Ducked out of this discussion when it became a bit unmanageable. Like king Canute trying to hold back the tide. 

That said, I did watch the Holly clip and I have to say, that I was surprised. Monumental stupidity to tackle that problem in that way. It certainly shows CM in the worst possible light, which is obviously the intention, but also, this is not representative IMO. I have seen him help many dogs and I don't recognise the violent bully that people are portraying him as.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> You may 'defer' to your dogs superior nose or sometimes his judgement, but who is in control?
> 
> I would hope it is you otherwise you are a liability to your dogs and to others. The reality is that dogs live in a human world and need human guidance.
> 
> Calm assertive/submissive is just the role between owner and dog. You might even apply the same labels between parent and child (often without the calm bit). The owner has a moral and legal duty to be in control of their dog. It's nothing sinister and it certainly doesn't mean dominating your dog into a submissive, shut down, broken spirited shell of a dog that I keep reading.


I don't want my dogs to be what CM calls calm submissive. Whatever you want to pain that as is up to you, but if a dog of mine behaved around me like dogs do around CM I would consider that I was doing something very wrong in the relationship department.

I guess you didn't read the link I shared? Being a leader to your dog is about earning their trust to where they *choose* to defer to you. Leadership is earned, not forced. 
"Leadership is a role that requires the earning of trust from followers. Trust cannot be demanded. Force (the tool of the Dominator) creates resistance. Trust can only be given, not taken. Leadership, unlike "dominance", requires followers to CHOOSE to follow. Trust is broken in a heartbeat, but repaired, re-earned, only over a long period of time--not hours, but days, weeks, even months or years. Sometimes, it's irreparably broken.

An individual dog always has the right to choose whether to follow another dog or not. Even the most severe aggression will not force an individual dog to follow a leader it does not willingly choose to follow. It is only the benefit offered by the leader that encourages a follower to follow."


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> Come off it, he doesn't thump dogs!
> 
> His methods may be unpopular on this forum but there's no denying that he is a man who has dedicated his life to the rehab of problem dogs (and owners) and there must be hundreds of dogs out there that owe him their second chances, even their lives.


Oh yes he does thump dogs. I saw him thump a dog on some 'YouTube Poop'-esque video. Yes, the video was a p*sstake and a joke, but the dog thumping was raw footage taken directly from from Cesar's TV show. I believe that the original video has already been posted on this thread (correct me if I'm wrong). I haven't watched the video in a while, maybe the dog was thumped for a 'reason' because it bit or attacked. I'm not getting into an online brawl about whether it is morally right to hit dogs to discipline them.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Codiemalamute said:


> Ducked out of this discussion when it became a bit unmanageable. Like king Canute trying to hold back the tide.
> 
> That said, I did watch the Holly clip and I have to say, that I was surprised. Monumental stupidity to tackle that problem in that way. It certainly shows CM in the worst possible light, which is obviously the intention, but also, this is not representative IMO. I have seen him help many dogs and I don't recognise the violent bully that people are portraying him as.


So what IS representative of him in your opinion? I've trawled through YouTube videos over the last few days and have yet to find ANY dogs he's *helped* in a positive way. The dogs may not be displaying the unwanted behaviours any longer but they certainly have not learnt anything other than fear of being punished. Surely any halfwit can see that teaching a dog how you want it to behave rather than forcing it into an unwanted behaviour and then punishing it is never going to "cure" a problem, only mask it.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Being a leader to your dog is about earning their trust to where they *choose* to defer to you.
> "


I totally agree.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

ouesi said:


> You've been watching American politics I take it?


TRUMP 4 PREZ


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Codiemalamute said:


> You may 'defer' to your dogs superior nose or sometimes his judgement, but who is in control?
> 
> I would hope it is you otherwise you are a liability to your dogs and to others. The reality is that dogs live in a human world and need human guidance.
> 
> Calm assertive/submissive is just the role between owner and dog. You might even apply the same labels between parent and child (often without the calm bit). The owner has a moral and legal duty to be in control of their dog. It's nothing sinister and it certainly doesn't mean dominating your dog into a submissive, shut down, broken spirited shell of a dog that I keep reading.


That would depend what you mean by in control. My dogs always did what I wanted them to outside; no I didn't want my bins emptied or my dustbin tipped out all over the garden but nothing I would get in a flap about. My Ferdie was frightened of loud noises so I kept him away from them; I did not force him into a situation where he would be frightened by them.

If you have an intelligent dog you have to respect his intellect not try to be in control. Of course he needs human guidance, just as we need his guidance in a potentially dangerous situation. It is a question of mutual trust and friendship, not one person being in control.



Codiemalamute said:


> Ducked out of this discussion when it became a bit unmanageable. Like king Canute trying to hold back the tide.
> 
> That said, I did watch the Holly clip and I have to say, that I was surprised. Monumental stupidity to tackle that problem in that way. It certainly shows CM in the worst possible light, which is obviously the intention, but also, this is not representative IMO. I have seen him help many dogs and I don't recognise the violent bully that people are portraying him as.


Why do you imagine the intention was to show cm in the worst possible light in that clip? It wasn't doctored, it wasn't made just for You Tube either; it was part of one of his tv shows and proves that he knows sod all about dogs. As was all the incidents being referred to in this thread, from the GSD who bit his owner because this idiot shocked him every time he got near the cat and the dog thought it was his owner, to the husky who was hung up by his collar until his tongue turned blue. Of course it is representative of his normal idiocy.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Nothing like a good CM thread to bring the forum back to life.... haha i have been reading and not said a word. *


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Nothing like a good CM thread to bring the forum back to life.... haha i have been reading and not said a word. *


Now, Janice, I thought you'd changed sides. Are you still on the fence? Seriously?


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

You can't blame people for being taken in by the National Geographic PR machine. After all that's their business. The bad videos are out there on YouTube but you have to be looking for them. The Holly thing.. whichever way you look at it.. it's pretty stupid... and there are worse ones. His centre/shelter is no excuse.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Now, Janice, I thought you'd changed sides. Are you still on the fence? Seriously?


*Seriously, i don't think CM is all bad, and i still watch some of is shows. *


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Seriously, i don't think CM is all bad, and i still watch some of is shows. *


As I've said before, Adolf Hitler wasn't all bad either. The parts that are bad far outweigh the parts that aren't, but at least you've taken his picture off your avatar!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> As I've said before, Adolf Hitler wasn't all bad either. The parts that are bad far outweigh the parts that aren't, but at least you've taken his picture off your avatar!


*lol now don't tempt me. *


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

newfiesmum said:


> Why do you imagine the intention was to show cm in the worst possible light in that clip? It wasn't doctored, it wasn't made just for You Tube either; it was part of one of his tv shows and proves that he knows sod all about dogs. As was all the incidents being referred to in this thread, from the GSD who bit his owner because this idiot shocked him every time he got near the cat and the dog thought it was his owner, to the husky who was hung up by his collar until his tongue turned blue. Of course it is representative of his normal idiocy.


Because it was shown in isolation, there was no balance to counter it and was without doubt the worst thing I ever saw CM try to do. It was the poster's intention to portray him at his worst and to leave out anything positive.


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Out of interest (and balance of course) can anyone refer me to a YouTube video that shows CM in a positive light? I still haven't found one myself yet.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

newfiesmum said:


> That would depend what you mean by in control. My dogs always did what I wanted them to outside; no I didn't want my bins emptied or my dustbin tipped out all over the garden but nothing I would get in a flap about. My Ferdie was frightened of loud noises so I kept him away from them; I did not force him into a situation where he would be frightened by them.
> 
> If you have an intelligent dog you have to respect his intellect not try to be in control. Of course he needs human guidance, just as we need his guidance in a potentially dangerous situation. It is a question of mutual trust and friendship, not one person being in control.


OK well I'll try to clarify what I mean by 'in control' and also what I don't mean.

What I mean is that you should be able to recall your dog, to instruct your dog and expect him to exhibit some good manners. You need to be in charge in case of potential danger. If I were to live with dogs in a canine world then I would expect them to be in charge.

To be in control doesn't mean dominance or slavish obedience, and especially not subjugating their personality or freedom. It doesn't mean your dog can't express themselves and get on with their doggy business as they wish.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

newfiesmum said:


> That would depend what you mean by in control. My dogs always did what I wanted them to outside; no I didn't want my bins emptied or my dustbin tipped out all over the garden but nothing I would get in a flap about. My Ferdie was frightened of loud noises so I kept him away from them; I did not force him into a situation where he would be frightened by them.
> 
> If you have an intelligent dog you have to respect his intellect not try to be in control. Of course he needs human guidance, just as we need his guidance in a potentially dangerous situation. It is a question of mutual trust and friendship, not one person being in control.


OK well I'll try to clarify what I mean by 'in control' and also what I don't mean.

What I mean is that you should be able to recall your dog, to instruct your dog and expect him to exhibit some good manners. You need to be in charge in case of potential danger. If I were to live with dogs in a canine world then I would expect them to be in charge.

To be in control doesn't mean dominance or slavish obedience, and especially not subjugating their personality or freedom. It doesn't mean your dog can't express themselves and get on with their doggy business as they wish.


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2016)

Codiemalamute said:


> What I mean is that you should be able to recall your dog, to instruct your dog and expect him to exhibit some good manners. You need to be in charge in case of potential danger. If I were to live with dogs in a canine world then I would expect them to be in charge.


Which ironically is exactly what CM is not able to do LOL
Have you ever seen him teach a dog to recall, basic obedience cues like sit and stay sitting until I either release you or tell you to do something else? He never shows anything like that. In fact, as already stated, his own 2 year old dog didn't even have basic obedience cues. 
So there ya go....


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Nettles said:


> Out of interest (and balance of course) can anyone refer me to a YouTube video that shows CM in a positive light?


I can.

Well, only very small excerpts actually.

Usually the bits at the end of each episode when he gets back in his car and goes home.

To his house that is. :Facepalm


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Codiemalamute said:


> Because it was shown in isolation, there was no balance to counter it and was without doubt the worst thing I ever saw CM try to do. It was the poster's intention to portray him at his worst and to leave out anything positive.


It wasn't shown in isolation in the actual tv episode. People who saw it saw the whole episode found no balance to counter it. The Husky he hung up till its tongue turned blue was part of a programme episode as well and all the others which have been posted. There was no positive. The episode I saw which is never mentioned here and which sickened me was when these idiots called him out because their dog was dominant. He took it into their garage, sat down and the dog came and put both paws on CM's knees, which obviously is a sign of dominance (doh). He started hitting the dog around the face. Dog had done nothing except put two paws on his knees, which is a sign of either affection or wanting something, not bloody dominance. Another perfectly good mutt ruined.



Codiemalamute said:


> OK well I'll try to clarify what I mean by 'in control' and also what I don't mean.
> 
> What I mean is that you should be able to recall your dog, to instruct your dog and expect him to exhibit some good manners. You need to be in charge in case of potential danger. If I were to live with dogs in a canine world then I would expect them to be in charge.
> 
> To be in control doesn't mean dominance or slavish obedience, and especially not subjugating their personality or freedom. It doesn't mean your dog can't express themselves and get on with their doggy business as they wish.


As Ouesi has pointed out, these are things CM cannot do and has never been seen to do. All my dogs over 25 years have had these skills. My retriever even obeyed the 'down' command from a distance when he got into a fracas with another dog. My three newfoundlands were a treat to take out; you have to be in control of dogs that are collectively more than twice your weight. But not one of my dogs knew who was boss or who the pack leader was. They responded to me because of the mutual trust which had been built up over the years by respect and because they wanted to please me.

He has never even once thought that sudden aggression in a normally calm dog might just mean a medical issue; never once recommended seeing a vet first.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Zaros said:


> To his house that is. :Facepalm


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> The episode I saw which is never mentioned here and which sickened me was when these idiots called him out because their dog was dominant. He took it into their garage, sat down and the dog came and put both paws on CM's knees, which obviously is a sign of dominance (doh). He started hitting the dog around the face. Dog had done nothing except put two paws on his knees, which is a sign of either affection or wanting something, not bloody dominance. Another perfectly good mutt ruined.


Another episode I didn't see, but reading this made me want to cry. The poor dog was clearly wanting a bit of attention or a treat and got a beating for it. If my dogs did that, they would be so shocked and upset if they were told off, let alone hit


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> Another episode I didn't see, but reading this made me want to cry. The poor dog was clearly wanting a bit of attention or a treat and got a beating for it. If my dogs did that, they would be so shocked and upset if they were told off, let alone hit


It upset me terrible because the dog was doing nothing but saying hello. I read in some course I signed up for that putting two paws on your knees is a sign of dominance and I thought what utter BS. My Joshua used to do that all the time, usually when he wanted his legs rubbed and he always had his willy sticking out, something else CM declares to be a sign of dominance. He was the least dominant dog you could possible hope to meet; he absolutely loved everyone.

I promised myself then I would never watch another of this idiot's shows.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> It upset me terrible because the dog was doing nothing but saying hello. I read in some course I signed up for that putting two paws on your knees is a sign of dominance and I thought what utter BS. My Joshua used to do that all the time, usually when he wanted his legs rubbed and he always had his willy sticking out, something else CM declares to be a sign of dominance. He was the least dominant dog you could possible hope to meet; he absolutely loved everyone.
> 
> I promised myself then I would never watch another of this idiot's shows.


This is the image that I have seen on Facebook so many times and there is absolutely nothing dominant about this. I would say empathy is the overriding emotion hereView media item 75641


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> This is the image that I have seen on Facebook so many times and there is absolutely nothing dominant about this. I would say empathy is the overriding emotion hereView media item 75641


One of my previous male rotties used to come and sit beside my bed every night like that (sat up on his bum) and give me a hug goodnight. Indie does a similar thing now but she is on the bed at the time - we have a hug and she rests her head on my shoulder  CM would have a fit if he saw her.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> One of my previous male rotties used to come and sit beside my bed every night like that (sat up on his bum) and give me a hug goodnight. Indie does a similar thing now but she is on the bed at the time - we have a hug and she rests her head on my shoulder  CM would have a fit if he saw her.


Lola does that to me if she's feeling really insecure. She'll sit on my lap and cuddle me with her head over my shoulder and kind of tucked into my neck. The thought of pushing her away or denying her this comfort upsets me


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> Lola does that to me if she's feeling really insecure. She'll sit on my lap and cuddle me with her head over my shoulder and kind of tucked into my neck. The thought of pushing her away or denying her this comfort upsets me


Ferdie always used to climb up on the sofa next to me and lay his great head on my shoulder.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Isla gets on the sofa and gently lays her head on my shoulder too. It's almost as if she's saying, hello my friend, here I am for a cuddle and a snooze.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> One of my previous male rotties used to come and sit beside my bed every night like that (sat up on his bum) and give me a hug goodnight. Indie does a similar thing now but she is on the bed at the time - we have a hug and she rests her head on my shoulder  CM would have a fit if he saw her.


Oliver used to give us hugs all the time just like you explained.Also when i got home oliver would run to me and sit sideways and sit pretty to get his lovins.I have to say i dont think there was a dominant bone in his body


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> This is the image that I have seen on Facebook so many times and there is absolutely nothing dominant about this. I would say empathy is the overriding emotion hereView media item 75641


This picture was sent to me by my brother the day after Oliver passed


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Lola does that to me if she's feeling really insecure. She'll sit on my lap and cuddle me with her head over my shoulder and kind of tucked into my neck. The thought of pushing her away or denying her this comfort upsets me


This is exactly when Phoebe does it too. If she's anxious about something, she'll do that for a snuggle and get some comfort and reassurance. Like you say, just the thought of pushing her away makes me want to cry


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## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

Colette said:


> An affinity and understanding with dogs? I'll just say the same 2 things I say every time this subject comes up.
> 
> Affinity... Watching cm I have seen dogs cower, run away, hide under the bed, shake, bite cm, bite someone else, pee themselves, shut down etc. How on earth can anyone who does this to almost every dog they interact with ad said to have an affinity for them??
> 
> ...


I would so much like to shake Cesar Milan-and say "He 's learning."


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## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

Wee T said:


> Agree completely. With Willow being reactive dog training comes up a lot in conversation with friends and colleagues. CM always comes up. And without exception has been lauded...except by me...until a few things are pointed out to them.
> 
> Like...The reactive jrt no longer barking. With a simple explanation (because I'm no behaviourist so simple is all I'm capable of) that the hard stare away from the trigger may be avoidance and in no way indicative that he is comfortable or non reacting. Or pointing out that punishing a fearful dog will only compound the fear and does nothing to desensitise, which can lead to heightened reactivity, you can see the penny drop.
> 
> ...


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Saw this on Twitter -
What has Cesar Millan learned by Steve Dale .

http://stevedale.tv/cesar-millan-learned/

A snippet from the link -

Cesar Millan is still the dog screamer.

I am truly saddened by the episode which Millan allowed (and some might argue encouraged) a dog named Simon to attack a pig. Millan is now being investigated for animal cruelty as a result.

My "relationship" with Cesar Millan dates back to 2006, I was one of the first (arguably the very first) to use a public platform to criticize this guy who people in the millions thought had a new and uniquely insightful understanding of dogs and dealing with problem behavior. The fact is that he uses antiquated and made-up methods.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> Saw this on Twitter -
> *What has Cesar Millan learned *by Steve Dale .
> http://stevedale.tv/cesar-millan-learned/


Not to become a member of Pet Forums.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It appears he has learned nothing but the article is still worth reading.

I like Jordan Shelly, the young man who caused a hoo ha on TV a while back with his training methods. 
he has been rehabilitated and is learning his craft from real trainers and behaviourist.
He's our hope for the future ans I hope when he is qualified and experienced enough he will have his own TV show.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Codiemalamute said:


> What I mean is that you should be able to recall your dog, to instruct your dog and expect him to exhibit some good manners. You need to be in charge in case of potential danger. If I were to live with dogs in a canine world then I would expect them to be in charge.
> 
> .


Try that with an independent breed that has been bred for centuries to make up its own mind


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Try that with an independent breed that has been bred for centuries to make up its own mind


Just my point. Any working breed, especially a giant working breed who spend lots of time working alone, is going to treat this sort of 'training' with contempt and I know that anyone trying to alpha roll Ferdie would have been in danger of losing his fingers.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

Phoolf said:


> Try that with an independent breed that has been bred for centuries to make up its own mind


Try what? Recall? good manners? Being in control of your dogs?

All pre requisites of a responsible dog owner. Is this considered extreme or something?

I've got two malamutes. There is no other breed as independently minded as malamutes that I know of.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

newfiesmum said:


> Just my point. Any working breed, especially a giant working breed who spend lots of time working alone, is going to treat this sort of 'training' with contempt and I know that anyone trying to alpha roll Ferdie would have been in danger of losing his fingers.


The post that you are replying to was responding to my post about being in control of your dogs.

Where did I mention 'alpha rolls'?

How is being in control of your dogs the 'kind of training' that would result in being bitten? What on earth are you on about.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Codiemalamute said:


> The post that you are replying to was responding to my post about being in control of your dogs.
> 
> Where did I mention 'alpha rolls'?
> 
> How is being in control of your dogs the 'kind of training' that would result in being bitten? What on earth are you on about.


You know what I am on about and you know what Phoolf was on about. We are both trying to point out that the sort of bullying that Cesar Millan calls training would never work on an independent breed. I think you know perfectly well that we were not talking about basic good manners, which I have always achieved with positive training which does not involve teaching the dog who is pack leader.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

There's a film clip somewhere of CM with a dog and chicken . I cant find it on you tube , its not the one with the dog and chicken that lays and egg in the garage.
its a close up of him holding a chicken in one arm with a goldi that had been chasing chickens next to him and he keep poking this poor dog, she looked at the chicken , he poked her , she looked away from it , he poked her , she looked at him , he poked her , She was giving submissive signals and he kept giving her pokes .
He did not indicate what he wanted her to do so she could avoid the pokes , she could not escape. 
This is not training , it is not behaviourism
To people who know little about dogs , it looks harmless but its psychological cruelty to be put into a situation which you don't understand why you are being punished and no matter what you do, you cant avoid it .


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Codiemalamute said:


> I've got two malamutes. There is no other breed as independently minded as malamutes that I know of.


:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

[


Codiemalamute said:


> Try what? Recall? good manners? Being in control of your dogs?
> 
> All pre requisites of a responsible dog owner. Is this considered extreme or something?
> *
> I've got two malamutes. There is no other breed as independently minded as malamutes that I know of*.


You've obviously never owned Shar-Pei!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> [
> 
> You've obviously never owned Shar-Pei!


Obviously never done a great deal in researching dogs either.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> There's a film clip somewhere of CM with a dog and chicken . I cant find it on you tube , its not the one with the dog and chicken that lays and egg in the garage.
> its a close up of him holding a chicken in one arm with a goldi that had been chasing chickens next to him and he keep poking this poor dog, she looked at the chicken , he poked her , she looked away from it , he poked her , she looked at him , he poked her , She was giving submissive signals and he kept giving her pokes .
> He did not indicate what he wanted her to do so she could avoid the pokes , she could not escape.
> This is not training , it is not behaviourism
> To people who know little about dogs , it looks harmless but its psychological cruelty to be put into a situation which you don't understand why you are being punished and no matter what you do, you cant avoid it .


I remember that one; the dog yawned and he said he was threatening. The stupid owner knew it was wrong, he actually said 'you're frightening her' but CM said no so he let him carry on. I would have booted him off my property.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@newfiesmum  Its even worse than I remember.


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Codiemalamute said:


> The post that you are replying to was responding to my post about being in control of your dogs.
> 
> Where did I mention 'alpha rolls'?
> 
> How is being in control of your dogs the 'kind of training' that would result in being bitten? What on earth are you on about.


It does get confusing on there lol.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

newfiesmum said:


> You know what I am on about and you know what Phoolf was on about. We are both trying to point out that the sort of bullying that Cesar Millan calls training would never work on an independent breed. I think you know perfectly well that we were not talking about basic good manners, which I have always achieved with positive training which does not involve teaching the dog who is pack leader.


If you quote my post in your reply you put it into that context - a direct reply - and then start talking about bullying and intimidation to dogs. You should know better.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

Magyarmum said:


> [
> 
> You've obviously never owned Shar-Pei!


No I haven't. Hence I said "the most independent minded breed that I know of.

I don't know anything about the breed characteristics of Sharpei and don't need to.

The Northern breeds however are known to be strong willed and malamutes in particular were bred to think independently. This was an asset to the malehmut natives when driving them as they would find the safest passage through the ice, sometimes against instruction.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

Zaros said:


> Obviously never done a great deal in researching dogs either.


Why?

Was I wrong to say malamutes are independent thinkers or are you just the next cretin to jump on the bandwagon.

Keep them coming.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Oh please, I would say every dog trainer in existence from the best to the worst would agree that people should be in control of their dogs - that's the whole point of training them!

Trying to do so using methods that rely on intimidation, fear and pain is cruel to the dog and dangerous for the owner.

I don't think anyone would dispute malamutes being independent, but they're certainly not the only breed, and probably not the most extreme example either. There are also many breeds that are far less tolerant of poor handling. 
If cm tried some of his usual violence (repeated prodding, kicking, alpha rolls etc) on those breeds he'd likely end up in hospital.

Hell lets be honest, he gets bitten often enough by the softer, more compliant breeds. 

These sorts of methods are not the best way to be in control of a dog. There are far more effective methods, plus the use of violence increases the chance of a dog becoming aggressive.


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## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

Colette said:


> Oh please, I would say every dog trainer in existence from the best to the worst would agree that people should be in control of their dogs - that's the whole point of training them!


Except when I say it, it is implied that I am advocating violence and intimidation to achieve it.



Colette said:


> Trying to do so using methods that rely on intimidation, fear and pain is cruel to the dog and dangerous for the owner.
> 
> I don't think anyone would dispute malamutes being independent, but they're certainly not the only breed, and probably not the most extreme example either.


Except when I say it, I have people queuing up to take pot shots (hence bandwagon) and to tell me I know nothing about breeds. 
I would be interested in which breeds are considered more independent than mals though, but for another thread perhaps.



Colette said:


> There are also many breeds that are far less tolerant of poor handling.
> If cm tried some of his usual violence (repeated prodding, kicking, alpha rolls etc) on those breeds he'd likely end up in hospital.
> 
> Hell lets be honest, he gets bitten often enough by the softer, more compliant breeds.
> ...


I just don't agree that CMs modus operandi is violence. I will have to watch some episodes of the dog whisperer, I've got loads on the box, and respond with some positive instances of CM educating owners and helping dogs that everyone seems to have forgotten about.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Codiemalamute said:


> Why?
> 
> Was I wrong to say malamutes are independent thinkers or are you just the next cretin to jump on the bandwagon.


If you own or keep a breed that is quite capable of out thinking you with the greatest of ease, you really ought to familiarise yourself with other breeds that are similar in nature before you and your dog come to grief.

But what would I know? I'm just a cretin from a long line of cretins.

And you're from Leicester.

Judging by your attitude, would that be the Prison?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm not sure whether you've seen this vid @Codiemalamute -






but I think this is probably one of the more eye opening vids of his and sparked a huge amount of concern. Aside from the very obvious actions of him chocking the poor dog out ( which if isn't violent in your book I have no idea what is! ), but notice all the subtle signs too. How he 'kicks' at the dog at around 8.24 and instigates that reaction from the dog who was up till then doing was required of him in ignoring the other dog. As has been said many times, and what his followers seem to miss big time, is not that the dog 'submits' and becomes calm and relaxed, but the fact he's completely exhausted. The ears back whilst walking with the other dog afterwards again doesn't signify 'submission', and is more a sign of being uncomfortable. Of course, for those wishing for a 'magic' cure, those who see the end result as being more beneficial than the process it takes to get there, then yes, those people are going to continue playing ignorant. But for a lot of people, even his avid followers before this clip, it changed a lot of people's minds and made them see CM in a new light.



Colette said:


> Oh please, I would say every dog trainer in existence from the best to the worst would agree that people should be in control of their dogs - that's the whole point of training them!
> 
> Trying to do so using methods that rely on intimidation, fear and pain is cruel to the dog and dangerous for the owner.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better. If he were to try some of those techniques on Cash it would be a sure fire guarantee he'd be bitten. As you said, some breeds are just less tolerant of harsh handling and have no problems letting you know either and when you try training all dogs with the same methods and same lack of consideration to the individual dog's personality, that's where the problems start.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Codiemalamute said:


> I will have to watch some episodes of the dog whisperer, I've got loads on the box, and respond with some positive instances of CM educating owners and helping dogs that everyone seems to have forgotten about.


Watching episodes of the Dog Whisperer isn't going to give you a balanced view. You need to look for the things he doesn't want you to see which may be on YouTube or further underground. It really doesn't matter if there are positive instances. It only takes one thing to ruin someone's reputation.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Codiemalamute said:


> If you quote my post in your reply you put it into that context - a direct reply - and then start talking about bullying and intimidation to dogs. You should know better.


And if you own a dog, you should know better than to favour the Dog Abuser. I am done with this thread.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Codiemalamute said:


> Except when I say it, it is implied that I am advocating violence and intimidation to achieve it.
> 
> Except when I say it, I have people queuing up to take pot shots (hence bandwagon) and to tell me I know nothing about breeds.
> I would be interested in which breeds are considered more independent than mals though, but for another thread perhaps.
> ...


I think its more a case of the way you say it which perhaps gives the impression that you support CM's methods of achieving that which we are all striving for which is well trained happy dog rather than a shut down/unhappy but compliant one


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Anyway... Moving on... 

Any signs of results from the investigation yet?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Dogloverlou I think the dog was not only exhausted but suffering from shock and the fact that his penis was out could have been due to a shortage of oxygen from being strangled rather than being relaxed.


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## jon.bda (Oct 10, 2015)

https://www.thedodo.com/community/dogsandethics/cesar-millan-fails-german-dog--730677947.html


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2016)

Yet again these conversations go off the rails and get unproductive.

The truth is, punishment does work. I mean, let’s face it, if people were poking and going “tsst” at their dogs without success they would stop right? But they don’t, they’re getting the results they want - which for the vast majority of dog owners just means a dog who isn’t bothering them anymore, and they don’t look much past that.

Nobody is going to score any believability points by pretending like what CM does doesn’t work or at least appear to work. Nor for that matter is it helpful to get in to the ‘my dog is more badass than yours’ type conversations either 
Dogs are by nature conflict avoiders, yes, even the ‘badass’ breeds whatever you conceive those to be. We’re talking canis familiaris here, not grizzly bears. Most of the time you really are going to get away with being an asshat to your dog without losing any body parts, and most dogs will turn around and appease confusing/conflicting human behavior anyway which sadly just encourages more asshattery from the human. 

So if someone is a diehard CM fan, no one is going to change their mind by loudly shouting how wrong they are and that their dog hates them and will probably bite them. a) It does appear to work most of the time (and when it doesn’t, there’s always the option of blaming the dog, or the human, and not the methods). b) the dog will likely appease like crazy making it look like the dog adores his human, and c) even when humans act like idiots, dogs tend to refrain from biting, or at least don’t do much damage when they do. Hell, even poor Holly showed pretty good inhibition - she wasn’t trying to hurt him. Considering a dog the size of a lab can easily crush bones (raw feeders know what I mean) and all she did was a decent puncture wound and didn’t crush any bones in his hand (even though she had his whole hand in her mouth), clearly she wasn’t trying to hurt him. 

At the end of the day, folks are going to like who they’re going to like when it comes to dog training celebrities, and frankly, it’s not my or anyone else’s business what people think of CM or his methods.

What IS my business, and everyone else’s though, is if animals are treated within the boundaries of the laws we have in place, and if those laws are being upheld equally for all people. 
If a TV trainer is allowed to set up a scenario where a pig is basically used as bait, in a state where baiting is illegal, and it is televised, and people profit from this illegal activity, then it does move from a matter of opinion to a matter of law. 

I truly hope we all keep the pressure up as far as making sure the state of California pursues this case.
I truly hope we don’t fall for ‘the dog gets along with pigs now’ excuse even if it were true that the dog is ‘rehabilitated’ (which I don’t believe based on my knowledge of dog behavior and training). If I beat my child for not doing homework, I don’t get out of abuse charges just because my kid now diligently does homework. Abuse is not contingent on whether it ‘works’ or not. 
I hope people are signing the petition to get this show off the air (if they agree) and sharing with others who might agree. 

There is a lot we can do to help animals here, arguing about the methods with people who have stuck their fingers in their ears is not the most helpful of the many options 
IMO of course


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Codie - you say you don't agree that cm's modus operandi is violence... Perhaps you have a different definition to the me?

In almost every episode cm does at several of the following - these are his standard techniques:

Collar corrections (jerking)
Using choke, prong and shock collars
Hanging (lifting dogs off the ground by collars)
Prodding (usually in the neck accompanied by tsst sounds)
Kicking
Scruffing - grabbing the scruff and in some cases lifting and dangling the dog by the scruff
Dragging dogs around on leads (inc dragging giant breeds across slippery floors or up and down stairs
Wrestling dogs to the floor and pinning by the neck (aka alpha roll)

These are very physical punitive methods, causing fear, distress and pain, even asphyxiation.

As a result dogs on his shows have been shown running away, cowering, hiding under the bed, shaking with fear, wetting themselves, biting cm or biting anyone else in the vicinity. And these are just the most obvious reactions to his violence. Even more frequently you can see signs of stress and calming signals like whale-eye, yawning, lip licking etc.

Not just violence, cm is also big on intimidation... Looming over dogs, staring, generally behaving in a threatening manner.

As for independent, no nonsense breeds, I would say the livestock guarding dogs - especially the more primitive ones like the ovcharkas. These are dogs not bred to work alongside people but out living with their flocks and defending them from large predators and humans. Dogs with highly developed guarding instincts and the ability to decide for themselves what is a threat and how to react to it.
If cm were to try alpha rolling a cao or a sar he would be in hospital.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2016)

Rach&Miko said:


> Anyway... Moving on...
> 
> Any signs of results from the investigation yet?


As of the 14th, it was still under investigation with reports that CM is fully cooperative.

Many news sources are reporting that the pig is now "fine" which is starting to worry me.
Abuse does not cancel out just because the victim healed from the physical wounds.
There is a clear legal definition of abuse, and whether or not the individual healed from it is not a criteria anywhere that I know of.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I wish we still had rep!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> I'm not sure whether you've seen this vid @Codiemalamute -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't finish watching that. After he kicked it and then hung him up by his choke chain, that was too much for me


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I couldn't finish watching that. After he kicked it and then hung him up by his choke chain, that was too much for me


I honestly wouldn't advise you to watch the rest of it either. I watched it a few days ago and it's horrific. The choking noises that poor dog makes as he's hanging it from its choke chain almost made me physically sick. How anyone can watch that episode and then say, "oh but he also does xyz so it's ok" is beyond me.
Abusing one animal is one animal too many IMO.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> I couldn't finish watching that. After he kicked it and then hung him up by his choke chain, that was too much for me


Yeah, I remember watching that episode, not really seeing CM in a negative light as such up until then, but boy did that episide make me feel uncomfortable and visibly upset. I was shocked and concerned, a whole range of emotions. Completely changed my whole outlook on him and his show, not that I particularly thought much of him before but I had watched and even enjoyed episodes of TDW up till then.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Abuse is not contingent on whether it 'works' or not.


Which is the whole Cesar Milan debate in a nutshell. For most of us that is.

J


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Rach&Miko said:


> Any signs of results from the investigation yet?


haven't seen any, but just spotted this.
Cesar Millan Animal Cruelty Case: Owner Defends Dog Whisperer : People.com


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I'm not sure whether you've seen this vid @Codiemalamute -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In fairness I think that episode needs watching in full. It was a stupid sensationalist set up. Blame the producers for setting it up, blame him for going along with it and without a safety net - not one of his finer hours.

My main objection with Mr Milan is he occasionally takes high risk strategy's. When they go right - it's great - though not a great you'd want to attempt to emulate, when they don't it's a train wreck. I went from "Wow look how cool is this?" as a kid watching the general stuff, to the popular "Milan is awful" You tube clips side, & back to - after watching hours of vids out of curiosity - "there's plenty of good stuff." He owns his mistakes when things go pear shaped. Take what you like, dump what you don't. There's an episode he coaxes a basket case scared Mali out of it's shell that is truly sweet.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sosha said:


> In fairness I think that episode needs watching in full. It was a stupid sensationalist set up. Blame the producers for setting it up, blame him for going along with it and without a safety net - not one of his finer hours.
> 
> My main objection with Mr Milan is he occasionally takes high risk strategy's. When they go right - it's great - though not a great you'd want to attempt to emulate, when they don't it's a train wreck. I went from "Wow look how cool is this?" as a kid watching the general stuff, to the popular "Milan is awful" You tube clips side, & back to - after watching hours of vids out of curiosity - "there's plenty of good stuff." He owns his mistakes when things go pear shaped. *Take what you like, dump what you don't.* There's an episode he coaxes a basket case scared Mali out of it's shell that is truly sweet.


 Unfortunately the poor dogs he traumatises don't get that choice though. Is if fair on them to say yeah but some go OK?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sosha said:


> He owns his mistakes when things go pear shaped.


Saying "I did not see that coming" and then making the owners sign the dog over to his care after Holly bit him is *not* owning his mistakes...he doesn't own his mistakes, he covers things up 
Again, his dog psychology center is full of his training failures...that is not owning your mistakes...

When you own your mistakes you tend to try to not repeat them...CM repeats his mistakes, over and over and over!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Saying "I did not see that coming" and then making the owners sign the dog over to his care after Holly bit him is *not* owning his mistakes...he doesn't own his mistakes, he covers things up
> Again, his dog psychology center is full of his training failures...that is not owning your mistakes...
> 
> When you own your mistakes you tend to try to not repeat them...CM repeats his mistakes, over and over and over!


And he never, ever learns from those mistakes either.

Which makes him a bit of an arrogant so & so really!


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

So, still waiting on the conclusion.

I read last week, maybe the week before??, that they were now dealing with his attorney from now on in but it was nearing the conclusion.

Perhaps I reading too much into it, but I couldn't help but feel a little disappointed (for want of a better word) by the apparent positive tone...CM has been co-operating fully, can assure pig is doing well, almost done, yadda yadda. 

I'm not hoping for tar and feathering but surely accountability and consequence isn't too much to hope for.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2016)

Sosha said:


> When they go right - it's great - though not a great you'd want to attempt to emulate, when they don't it's a train wreck. I went from "Wow look how cool is this?" as a kid watching the general stuff, to the popular "Milan is awful" You tube clips side, & back to - after watching hours of vids out of curiosity - "there's plenty of good stuff." He owns his mistakes when things go pear shaped. Take what you like, dump what you don't. There's an episode he coaxes a basket case scared Mali out of it's shell that is truly sweet.


I would again argue that periodic successes do not cancel out ignorant, irresponsible, dangerous and abusive practices. 
That it sometimes works does not justify the pain and suffering caused. That he's sometimes nice to dogs does not excuse the times he is not.

Change the context for a second. Say this man beats his wife, he's careful about it though and doesn't ever hit her face, only on places she can cover up with clothes. (Wouldn't want her to get head-shy don't you know.)
The rest of the time though, he's the model husband and father. A good provider, well respected in the community, maybe he has even started several charities that benefit community members.

None of this man's "good" behavior changes the fact that he hits his wife.
None of his "good" behavior erases that abuse.

Abuse is abuse is abuse.

Seemingly "good" people, clean, charming, pleasant people can and do commit abuse and just because it's not some alcoholic low-life thug beating his kid, doesn't make the abuse any less abusive.


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Saying "I did not see that coming" and then making the owners sign the dog over to his care after Holly bit him is *not* owning his mistakes...he doesn't own his mistakes, he covers things up
> Again, his dog psychology center is full of his training failures...that is not owning your mistakes...
> 
> When you own your mistakes you tend to try to not repeat them...CM repeats his mistakes, over and over and over!


I agree. He never owns his mistakes, he blames the dog.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

komondor_owner said:


> Abuse isn't clear cut though - it depends on context, individual circumstances, events leading up to it, etc etc
> Is cutting a dogs balls off "abuse"? Some would say most definitely yes it is. Others would claim its in the dogs best interests. (Or maybe the owner is just lazy and doesn't want to deal with an 'intact' male)...
> 
> Is it "animal cruelty" to kill a fox? What if the fox is killing all your chickens? There aren't absolutely clear cut answers.


Rubbish. Cutting a dog's balls off without an anaesthetic would be abuse, but giving him the option to live a happier life without them most certainly isn't. My Ferdie was thoroughly miserable before he was castrated. He was so randy with no outlet; he couldn't get off his lead because he was a danger to other dogs, being more than twice their weight, he was just miserable. Being lazy had nothing to do with it; I didn't want to have him done, but it was for him and it made him so much happier. He could go and play with other dogs without being a danger to them.

As to foxes, yes, killing foxes is abuse in my book. If they are killing your chickens, make a safer place for the chickens. Abuse is abuse and there is no getting away from that, no matter how much you might want to defend it.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> Abuse isn't clear cut though - it depends on context, individual circumstances, events leading up to it, etc etc
> Is cutting a dogs balls off "abuse"? Some would say most definitely yes it is. Others would claim its in the dogs best interests. (Or maybe the owner is just lazy and doesn't want to deal with an 'intact' male)...
> 
> Is it "animal cruelty" to kill a fox? What if the fox is killing all your chickens? There aren't absolutely clear cut answers.


There is a clear definition of abuse in the state law in California. Using pigs as bait is illegal under animal abuse laws. 
What your morals allow you is a totally different issue.


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> Do you think the dogs owner should also be prosecuted for allowing the dog to kill 2 pigs previously?


In the US, if my kills livestock I, as the dog owner, am in violation of several laws. 
How it is prosecuted depends on how and if the livestock owner chooses to press charges, and whether it is pursued as a criminal case or a civil case.

In this case the livestock owner and dog owner are the same owner so the waters get muddied.

In my personal opinion, I can excuse the first instance as an accident. The second instance is no longer an accident. However, I am not the one making that decision, I am neither AC or a prosecutor.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

We could argue all day whether he is an abuser - personally, I think yes, as probably most here do, but there are plenty of people coming from a whole other place (possibly the 70s) who still buy this dominance stuff and will never see it that way.

This particular incident that is being investigated almost certainly qualifies as animal abuse, particularly in the context of entertainment and media. That has to be a breach and I hope it investigated subjectively and he and NG face a suitable consequence.

My main issue with CM though is that he has a show - a platform. He has been given credence and is now considered an authority on the subject. It's not good enough to say oh, he gets it right sometimes.

The guy is wholly unqualified, and he gets it so badly wrong far too many times. Too many dogs have cowered and flinched under his 'training' methods - fgs the fact the guy has been bitten or snapped at so many times says it all - for me to ever believe that he is even remotely qualified to be a room with a dog let alone given a huge audience to spew his irresponsible nonsense.

I mean, I make a mean baked cheesecake and I don't _always_ burn the potatoes* so should I be given a cooking show? Can I be an authority on all things culinary?

C'mon, 'the kitchen's burning because the mushroom's are sautéing' is no more ridiculous than 'he's shaking cos he's learning'.

This man has not got where he has because he gets it right sometimes. He hasn't got where he is because he is a good trainer or understands dog behaviour. He got where he is because sensationalism gets ratings. And to the detriment of many dogs and dog training in general imo. That's much harder to fix than this particular incident.

I'm not particularly hopeful for the outcome.

*I do. I do always burn the potatoes. :Sorry :Arghh


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

deleted


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> "Abuse is abuse" is an absurd thing to say. It's not as clear cut as that.


When there is a legal definition, it is pretty clear cut.

Yes, it can be difficult to define abuse, and yes, dog owners should be careful what they ask for. There are implications to prosecuting an owner who, through ignorance, ends up in a situation where their dog has killed their other pet animals.

But just because something is difficult, doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing.

In a case where someone clearly held the pig so that the dog would become agitated and go for the pig, and then continued to hold the pig while the dog ripped a chunk of his ear off... There is not a whole lot of grey area there for me...


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Saying "I did not see that coming" and then making the owners sign the dog over to his care after Holly bit him is *not* owning his mistakes...he doesn't own his mistakes, he covers things up
> Again, his dog psychology center is full of his training failures...that is not owning your mistakes...
> 
> When you own your mistakes you tend to try to not repeat them...CM repeats his mistakes, over and over and over!





newfiesmum said:


> I agree. He never owns his mistakes, he blames the dog.


Yes, it would seem so, - very good point - and in doing so labels the dog unfixable.

The irony being, that often the dogs' original behavioural issues would have been relatively easy to fix... before he had intervened.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

komondor_owner said:


> I'm guessing you haven't seen a henhouse full of dead chickens. It's not a nice sight. Foxes are clever, and evil. They don't kill things to eat, they kill them for fun. And they will happily spend night after night working out how to get in.
> 
> OK, so what about killing a rat? A mouse? A fish? A bee? A fly? A germ? You have a line, just like everyone else. "Abuse is abuse" is an absurd thing to say. It's not as clear cut as that.


Yes I have seen a hen house full of dead chickens...no it is not a nice sight.
However, it is not the fault of the fox or the chickens...the fault lies firmly with the person that did not fox proof the chicken shed appropriately.

Foxes are not "evil", they are clever and opportunistic...they do not kill for fun or any of that other rubbish...they are opportunistic so will kill what they can and then stash what they can't eat for a later date, if given the chance to do so.

Killing anything inhumanely can be put in the same box as abuse...there is no grey line!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

komondor_owner said:


> I'm guessing you haven't seen a henhouse full of dead chickens. It's not a nice sight. Foxes are clever, and evil. *They don't kill things to eat, they kill them for fun.* And they will happily spend night after night working out how to get in.
> 
> OK, so what about killing a rat? A mouse? A fish? A bee? A fly? A germ? You have a line, just like everyone else. "Abuse is abuse" is an absurd thing to say. It's not as clear cut as that.


Only one animal kills in the context of 'fun' & that's humans.

Foxes, cats or any other animal that kills but doesn't eat the carcass are displaying a series of prey driven motor patterns, they are not 'evil' & the animals aren't doing it to some deviant ends, they are amoral & don't live within the confines of human constructs such as 'wrong' or 'right'.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

My personal definition of abuse is causing unnecessary suffering.

There is absolutely no doubt that CM causes suffering - there is a mountain of evidence in every single one of his shows. (The aforementioned running away, hiding, cowering, lip licking, yawning, whale eye, yelping, urinating, biting, trembling, etc etc....) The question becomes Is it necessary? No, clearly not. There must be hundreds of ways to train dogs; including a good many methods that do NOT cause suffering - either to the dog being trained, or to the handler / owner / other animals. All the evidence suggests that CM's theories are wrong, that he is largely incometent as a trainer, that physically punitive methods are high risk because they increase the likelihood of aggression, and so on.

Ergo, CM causes unnecessary suffering to dogs - and in some cases to others as well (the pig in this case, the owners who have been bitten thanks to him).

Thus he is a dog abuser IMO.

*I should add, that even if people were to argue his methods are necessary; I do not believe that the end always justifies the means. Where do you draw the line? If it is ok to kick dogs and hang them from choke chains when CM does it - why was it a huge publicity nightmare, with prosecutions, when police dog Acer died many years ago because he was strung up and fatally kicked by his handler? If the overall suffering outweighs the benefits then I do not believe it is ever justified, and thus would still IMHO constitute abuse.


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## Britt (May 18, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> I agree. He never owns his mistakes, he blames the dog.


I never liked the guy. He's full of himself.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

komondor_owner said:


> I'm guessing you haven't seen a henhouse full of dead chickens. It's not a nice sight. Foxes are clever, and evil. They don't kill things to eat, they kill them for fun. And they will happily spend night after night working out how to get in.
> 
> OK, so what about killing a rat? A mouse? A fish? A bee? A fly? A germ? You have a line, just like everyone else. "Abuse is abuse" is an absurd thing to say. It's not as clear cut as that.


What about it? I won't kill anything. I preserve cobwebs and leave the killing of flies to the spiders, as they are the only thing I detest enough to kill. I am not a country girl, but please don't try to tell me there is no way to build a secure home for the chickens where foxes cannot penetrate, because that is complete drivel. If you keep any animals it is your responsibility and duty to build them residences that will keep them safe. No animal kills for fun except humans; that is ridiculous. It is their nature to hunt and they cannot help their nature, even if they wanted to. They don't have morals and they don't think like we do.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Wee T:

... Mindboggling. I'm a work in progress when it comes to training, but even I managed basic obedience. It's really not rocket surgery!
Even my young children manage 'sit', 'down', & 'stay', amongst other [cued behaviors]. I need to speak with Nat Geographic about getting them a show...

Bizarre. *Does *[*Mr Millan*] *give any explanation of why he couldn't or wouldn't *[*teach these cued behaviors*]*? 
Or why it took Ian Dunbar to *[*teach them to Junior*]*?*
That's a hell of an admission. Rather confused by this, TBH.
/QUOTE
.
.
It's really very simple - Ian Dunbar, DVM, is a trainer. He - Ian - says so; lots & lots of other ppl also say that Dr Dunbar is a trainer. Some of those ppl are fellow trainers; some are pet-owners who've taken training classes with their own dogs, under Ian's tutelage. Some are fellow veterinarians; some are the folks who've published Dr Dunbar's books on training & dog-behavior. Others are folks who've produced Dr Dunbar's videos on dog-training & behavior.
Point is, a heckuva lot of ppl are all agreed that *Ian Dunbar, DVM, is a trainer. *
.
.
Conversely, Cesar Millan is "not a trainer" - according to CM; also per his publicist, his minions, his stable of lawyers, Nat'l-Geo's suits, his kennel-cleaners, & very-probably also according to his gardener, & the guy he takes his dry-cleaning to, & anyone else he ever interacts with, however casually..
Mr Millan has said this repeatedly, loudly, & stridently: *"I am not a dog-trainer - I am a dog-psychologist."*
He's different, ya see - he doesn't "teach" dogs anything, he pscho-analyzes them. He doesn't have to teach them to do things; he intuits their desires, their intentions, & their needs or wants. He can just LOOK at a dog, & know these things.
.
It's an 'instinct', he says; a gift, he was born with it - that's why he can't teach it to anyone else, which is - no doubt - the sad reason that so many of this clients, over the years, have signally failed to achieve their goals of teaching their own dogs new behavioral responses to certain cues. Since it's a "gift", either ya got it, or ya don't; there's no getting it unless U were luckily born with it.
.
Isn't that amazing? _  __ >.< __  _ In-_*cred*_-i-ble. ..._*Un*_-be-liev-able.
.
Of course, Mr Millan did have the undeniable advantage of being born in rural Mexico in the 1960s, & having his grandfather to teach him *"everything he knew"* about the dogs that lived around them - the semi-feral, free-breeding, free-roaming, outdoor dogs of small rancheros & villages, who were fed scraps, slept wherever they could, chased off other dogs who came by, scavenged for extra calories, & rarely saw a vet, except in extremis.
The dogs who were shot if they harassed livestock, or were suspected of rabies, or were otherwise causing serious problems.
.
That's who gave him his vast knowledge of dogs, his granddad - plus Cesar's inborn gift, of course; so that he could come & tell the grateful owners of pet-dogs in the USA, & later around the world, how to manage their own dogs - dogs who are fed dog-food bought in bags or cans or pouches, or even home-made proper diets of fresh food; dogs who see the vet whenever that's needed, or even sometimes when the vet's not needed; dogs who live indoors with their families; dogs who cuddle on the sofa, sleep on their own or their humans' beds, are walked on leashes, have play-dates, go to dog-parks, & may compete in dog-sports.
.
And isn't *that* amazing? _  __ >.< __  _ ...*Un*-be-liev-able.
The dogs of Cesar's childhood have SO much in common with the dogs he advises on, now!
.
What's even more amazing is that i personally can see things that Mr Millan claims he cannot - such as Holly's extremely-clear, increasingly-serious signals of escalating stress, worry, & anger, which finally resulted in an inevitable bite, as he continued to provoke her past all reason.
And lots & lots of other ppl can see these things, too - i'm not special; i don't have an inborn gift. Some of them are fellow professionals, some are pet-owners, some are even NON-pet-owers, but they can all see these things that Mr Millan, the "dog-psychologist", cannot.
.
.
So in sum, the reason that Junior didn't know how to sit on cue as a 2-YO is because Cesar Millan is different - he's _"not a trainer",_ as he says so often. And i agree with him; he's not - or at least, he's not a _*competent *_trainer.
.
Unfortunately, by definition he actually "is" a trainer, if not a competent one - because 'training' is anything one does that *intends* to change the behavior of an animal, & that would include CM's less than sterling attempts. His methods are ignorant & confrontational; his explanations are risible; but clearly, his INTENT is to change the animal's behavior.
So he is a trainer - despite his refusal to define himself as such, & despite my sincere desire that he'd chosen any other field of endeavor. He's just - IMHO & that of many others - a lousy example of the species.
.
.
.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Wee T:
> 
> ... Mindboggling. I'm a work in progress when it comes to training, but even I managed basic obedience. It's really not rocket surgery!
> Even my young children manage 'sit', 'down', & 'stay', amongst other [cued behaviors]. I need to speak with Nat Geographic about getting them a show...
> ...


L4L ..... You're priceless! I'm still laughing at your post! A lot of truth in what you wrote!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Wee T:

...I got a bit carried away ...& fancied perhaps NG could see what we see - that CM's a big ole inept numbnut,
but TBH, I think *it's just a generic disclaimer, not an 'admission' of anything.* Boo! :Shifty 

/QUOTE
.
.
Oh, not at all - it's _*definitely *_an admission, as it clearly admits that the lawyers kept on retainer by Nat'l-Geo channel earned their fees that day. They clearly saw the risk to their client, N-G-C, if any eejit who watched the program attempted to imitate the numbnut's - errrmmm, sorry, the host's - actions, which were demonstrations of his verbal suggestions to the owners of the problem-dog who appeared in the starring role, that episode.
.
The lawyers could clearly see that if ppl did what CM did, there was a great likelihood that they'd get hurt. And if someone got hurt doing what they'd been SHOWN to do, & TOLD to do, then there was a great likelihood that they would hold Nat'l-Geo channel accountable for their injury.
After all, by hiring CM as their guru of dog-behavior, N-G-C gave him a gloss of respectability & authority.
.
"National Geographic" used to be regarded as a respectable institution, a bastion of scientific method & provable fact - not the resort of Sasquatch hunters, alien-abduction fanatics, & the well-spoken pickpockets who inveigle money from dupes who attend their Victorian-style seances.
.
"National Geographic *Channel*" is obviously a completely unrelated enterprise, overflowing with twaddle & nonsense - but the lawyers aren't gullible twits, & they saw a fiduciary risk to their client, N-G-C, & acted appropriately.
.
So yes, it's an admission - that they needed to CYA, 'Cover Yer Arse', an extremely-important acronym in legal affairs.
.
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

And there is silly old me thinking one needing some sort of training or understanding of dogs to be a 'dog psychologist' when in fact all you need is a few months sweeping up in a grooming parlour in Hollywood.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Wee T:
> 
> ... Mindboggling. I'm a work in progress when it comes to training, but even I managed basic obedience. It's really not rocket surgery!
> Even my young children manage 'sit', 'down', & 'stay', amongst other [cued behaviors]. I need to speak with Nat Geographic about getting them a show...
> ...


:Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious Brilliant.

Gosh, well, the way you put it, he does sound like he was indeed born a little bit special.

Special gifts and Grandpas, eh. A match made in TV heaven.

Shame the only skills my Granda could teach me were how to strip an engine and how to evade the police when driving home from the pub, three sheets to the wind. Curse you Granda, you old soak!! unch

A psychologist indeed? Wowee. Who needs qualifications, eh? Experience? Handling skills? Or even common sense? Nope. A Mexican who's handy with his fists, a humble beginning and a Grampa is all you need.

Shame the reality isn't quite so romantic.

For all intents and purposes he is potrayed as a trainer and has been quoted as such by other muppets purporting to be trainers. I know cos I bloody paid them.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Saying "I did not see that coming" and then making the owners sign the dog over to his care after Holly bit him is *not* owning his mistakes...he doesn't own his mistakes, he covers things up
> Again, his dog psychology center is full of his training failures...that is not owning your mistakes...


He didn't see it coming because he started chatting for the camera and stopped paying attention. I won't argue it's a lousy method of fixing what is mostly a easy common problem to deal with. He erred, was visibly blaming no one but himself and did the best he could to mitigate the fall out. For me that's owning a mistake. As far as Holly's owners, they'd got in such a state anyway, that I wouldn't have laid any money on the dog remaining in that house regardless of Mr Milan's approach to resource guarding.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sosha said:


> He didn't see it coming because he started chatting for the camera and stopped paying attention. I won't argue it's a lousy method of fixing what is mostly a easy common problem to deal with. He erred, was visibly blaming no one but himself and did the best he could to mitigate the fall out. For me that's owning a mistake. As far as Holly's owners, they'd got in such a state anyway, that I wouldn't have laid any money on the dog remaining in that house regardless of Mr Milan's approach to resource guarding.


He didn't see it coming because he doesn't understand dog body language and never has. As to the owners not being able to keep the dog anyway, if they are that easily intimidated they've got not business having a dog. Diva used to guard the food bin. Not her actual bowl, the the lockable bin I kept the food in. If Ferdie walked past it, she would go for him. So I put the bin in the spare bedroom; result, no more guarding. When I first got her she was three and half and had been a show dog, sharing with seven other dogs. I started off feeding them separately, but after a week or so I fed them together in the same room. She would gobble hers up then would have gone after Ferdie's had I not body blocked her. I did this for a couple of weeks; result, no more trying to steal Ferdie's dinner. And guess what? I didn't get bitten once.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Unfortunately the poor dogs he traumatises don't get that choice though. Is if fair on them to say yeah but some go OK?


If it involves dogs that would normally/otherwise be on a one way trip to the vets? Maybe yes? Nobody is going to score a perfect on that criteria & I'm not sure there's anything more traumatic than being dumped in a council pound.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Sosha said:


> He didn't see it coming because he started chatting for the camera and stopped paying attention. I won't argue it's a lousy method of fixing what is mostly a easy common problem to deal with. He erred, was visibly blaming no one but himself and did the best he could to mitigate the fall out. For me that's owning a mistake.


From what I recall he believed his mistake was not paying attention. Not that his approach was wrong. He mistook the mistake.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> She would gobble hers up then would have gone after Ferdie's had I not body blocked her. I did this for a couple of weeks; result, no more trying to steal Ferdie's dinner. And guess what? I didn't get bitten once.


I'm guessing you were paying attention and didn't start gesticulating at a camera in front of her nose though...


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

diefenbaker said:


> From what I recall he believed his mistake was not paying attention. Not that his approach was wrong. He mistook the mistake.


Agreed. Two mistakes IMO - not paying attention got him bit, daft approach put the possibility on the menu. On the plus, I've seen later vids with a far less confrontational (male) approach to the same issue though so who knows?


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Sosha said:


> Agreed. Two mistakes IMO - not paying attention got him bit, daft approach put the possibility on the menu. On the plus, I've seen later vids with a far less confrontational (male) approach to the same issue though so who knows?


It depends on how he wants to position himself. Skeletons in the closet can come back to haunt people... badly. In my opinion ( which I am not entitled to :Bawling ) it's time for National Geographic to move on.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I'm going to parse the quoted post below, 1 statement at a time - it can be easier to see a fallacy when it's deconstructed.
.
Jackie, please don't feel that this is a personal attack - obviously, as CM has an international following of fans, & thousands of trainers in the US alone who blithely imitate his methods, & even mimic his labels & usage like so many uncomprehending parrots, U are far from alone.
.
QUOTE, Jackien4:
I really don't see [that] what he is doing is cruel to dogs.
.
How much do U know about dogs, as a species? I'm not being cute, it's a genuine question.
What dogs like or dislike, how they learn, how long they retain what they learn, & so on, are all critical to being able to teach them anything. Without an understanding of dogs AS dogs, we can't expect to interact well with dogs, or manage them well, or live with them happily.
We - that is, humans - have studied the behavior of non-humans for a very long time; non-scientifically for all of our existence as a species, & scientifically for almost as long as we've had science. Unfortunately, aside from physiology & nutrition studies, we didn't study dogs in any depth, & in particular, dog BEHAVIOR and COGNITION only got serious attn very recently.
.
The former prevailing belief, based on an unproven but pervasive hypothesis, was that domestic species of all kinds are dumbed-down, pathetic shadows of their wild relatives, & thus not worthy of study. So dogs were not merely ignored, they were actively ridiculed as simple, stoopid, & behavioristically retarded "wolves".
Bear in mind that wolves did not EVOLVE into dogs, any more than chimps EVOLVED into humans; we share a common ancestor with all other primate species; dogs share a common ancestor with all other canine species, & how recent that common parentage is varies in relation to dogs, from one canine species to another.
Modern-day wolves are the canines who are most-closely related to dogs; wolves & dogs are interfertile [can have fertile hybrid progeny], but behaviorally & intellectually, they are vastly different species.
.
raising a chimp in my home with my human children won't enable that chimp to speak a human language; rearing a wolf from puphood in my home with my dog won't result in a wolf who behaves like a dog.
.
What do U know about dog body-language, the primary channel for humans to get information on how the dog is feeling, what the dog intends to do or wants to do, & what the dog is thinking about doing or might do, in the immediate future?
We need to understand dogs as a species, as breeds or types, & as individuals, in order to have some idea of their emotional responses & likely behavior.
We're not telepaths, & dogs don't speak human languages, so we're not going to be able to interview them anytime soon. Our primary source of info is the dog's actions, voluntary or involuntary, in response to the environs or the actions of others.
.
behavior is a conversation - it is never one-sided, but can only be understood as an interaction; it is a flow of actions & reactions, each in response to another stimulus
.
If U have a basic grasp of dog body-language, it becomes pretty obvious that Mr Millan's actions are intrusive, threatening, confrontational, & aggressive - as perceived by the dogs when he interacts with them, & as shown by their clearly visible reactions.
.
For more info on _*dog body-language*,_ please see the many posts on the sticky of that title. There are drawings, videos, books, seminars, & more. Dogs are excellent communicators - we just need to pay attn, & respond appropriately.
.
QUOTE, Jackien4:
I've only watched a few of his programs, but what I've seen seems fine to me.
.
In that case, U need to do 2 things: 
learn more about dog body-language so U can recognize stress, & watch CM / DW with the sound muted.
It will quickly be apparent that the dogs grow increasingly uncomfortable, the longer he interacts with them.
.
Personally, i watched every episode from S-1/Ep-1, the early '30-min' non-prime-time programs, thru the later '1-hr' prime-time versions; i lost access after August 2009, as i moved on Sept 1st & didn't get that channel anymore.
But i didn't just watch them casually - i watched most episodes 3 or more times, as i recorded them to play each one back in slow-mo, & i took notes - so that i could explain to my clients what he was doing, & why it was wrong [IMO & IME].
.
QUOTE, Jackien4:
...the dog ... is usually [the aggressor, not Mr Millan], & [Mr Millan] never hits them, [nor is he] cruel to them.
.
U don't have to strike a dog to be "aggressive", & U need not touch a dog to be cruel; aggression, like cruelty, is the perception of the receiver, in this case, the dogs. It is also a collective perception of the audience - which, in the case of CM/DW, is largely & simply divided into "fans", overwhelmingly non-pros, & critics, overwhelmingly dog-pros - tho not exclusively.
.
If U can honestly say that U've never seen Mr Millan strike a dog with his hand, shod foot, or any other body-part, nor have U seen him handle a dog harshly - string them up by the collar suspending their body-wt on the leash & shutting off the airway, sharp 2-handed 'collar corrections' AKA yanks on the dog's neck, etc - then yes, U've watched very few episodes.
These incidents are not rare by any means.
Non-contact intimidation is also aggro, & no-contact flooding is the very epitome of cruel for an dog who cannot cope.
. 

QUOTE, Jackien4:
And in the end the dog is well trained and seems very happy.
.
.
the dog "is" well-trained, or SEEMS well-trained? - there's a difference.
Also, shut-down doesn't look anything like 'happy' - happy dogs are relaxed.
.
.
To be continued...
.
.
.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sosha said:


> He didn't see it coming because he started chatting for the camera and stopped paying attention.


In that case he wasn't paying attention from the get go...That dog was screaming at him to back off, even my non dog savvy OH could tell Holly was set to bite, and he seriously has zero clue on dog behaviour!

Taking a dog that you messed up from it's family is not owning the mistake...putting a dog into a situation that you know will probably end in a horrible fight is not owning any mistake...


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sosha said:


> If it involves dogs that would normally/otherwise be on a one way trip to the vets? Maybe yes? Nobody is going to score a perfect on that criteria & I'm not sure there's anything more traumatic than being dumped in a council pound.


Again, for the umpteenth time, the only person saying that is him!



diefenbaker said:


> From what I recall he believed his mistake was not paying attention. Not that his approach was wrong. He mistook the mistake.


There would have been no danger if he had approached the problem sensibly in the first place.



Sosha said:


> I'm guessing you were paying attention and didn't start gesticulating at a camera in front of her nose though...


Of course I was, because that is what training or managing your dog is all about, not showing off for an audience. He would have got bitten anyway, whether he had been paying attention or not; everyone else saw it coming long before he started playing to the audience. It was a foregone conclusion from the minute he started.

Bearing in mind that my Diva was 3 1/2 years old and 11 stone, heavier than me, and had been used to having to get in quick before some other dog pinched it, how come I managed to stop her guarding or stealing from Ferdie without a single intimidation on her part? It couldn't be because I know what I'm doing and he doesn't now could it?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, XemzX:

Urgh, the number of times I get... less-informed in dog behavior... owners, [who preach] about how to show dogs
who's boss, & complain [that] their dogs try to 'dominate' them [by]... pulling on leash, toileting in the house, etc.
*I blame CM for that.* 

/QUOTE
.
.
& well U should - pig-ignorant, asinine, reflexively harsh methods were DYING until Mr Millan
basically gave 'em CPR & revived 'em - he made old-fashioned punitive training respectable again.
.
Don't get me wrong; there were still Neanderthals who used such training practices, & there probly
always will be a few -- but CM/DW, as a program with a national pulpit, gave "harsh handling" mis-
labeled as 'training' a massive boost of credibility, & brought it back from the dark side into the main-
stream again.
.
Appealing to the human default to punish rather than teach, & to control rather than educate, was
a huge part of CM/DW's mass appeal.
.
*E-T-A:*
I would like to apologize to pigs for using the pejorative 'pig-ignorant'. Only humans can be willfully
ignorant; pigs are limited by their porcine minds, but humans can CHOOSE to be ignorant.
Humane training will become the global standard only when humans choose to be educated.
.
.
.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

He shouldn't be Holly - or any dog's - last hope. A good behaviourist could have helped Holly with her RG and she could still be living with her newly educated owners.

Instead she got CM. Who didn't just handle that a little bit badly - that was a showcase of precisely what NOT to do. He handled it so monumentally badly that it's almost laughable - except a dog lost her home, completely unnecessarily.

It shouldn't even have been aired let alone defended.

It really highlights just how little he knows about dogs. This is why he gets bitten so often. Idiot.

Unfortunately he is an idiot with an audience so this culture of outdated, punitive methods are given credence and it's harder to hear about the good behaviourists out there who really can save these dogs from the pound or euthanasia.

Rather than being lauded for saving all these dogs I can't help but wonder how many many more dogs are given up on *because* of this rash of CM-style training.

I mean, in this country (NI) there is a severe shortage of trainers/behaviourists. Even fewer good ones. When I needed help with Willow I had 3 CM-esque loons spouting his crap. They made Willow worse. And some. I found one - ONE! - who did not spout dominance nonsense. He is helping. If I had him from the off we wouldn't have such a big issue to fix.

Why is it so hard to find a good behaviourist? Why is this outdated, potentially damaging training so prevalent? Could it be because CM and his dominance theories are being pushed the fore and given credibility?

I think so. And I can't help but worry about those dogs out there, like Holly, who are being handled so badly that behaviour escalates to the point they're considered unfixable. Where do they end up? They can't all go to CMS centre. 

We cannot move on from this counterproductive archaic training while CM is being given this celeb status and platform.

CM isn't a saviour of dogs; dominance training is the bain of the dog training world. More harm can come from it than good so I will never think CM particularly noble for taking in dogs him and his ilk likely further damaged in the first place.

These dominance crones need to be given a short shrift to make way for reputable trainers who really can help these dogs. Nat Geo and the media should get behind THAT.


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

We were lucky that the closest behaviourist to us turned out to be fantastic and I'm always singing her praises. I dread to think what could have happened if we'd worked with someone else.

Some of my family though have the impression that our behaviourist is some sort of tree hugging hippy because her methods are kinder and nothing like CM's.

If one of them needed a behaviourist for their dog, I know for certain they wouldn't go to our behaviourist. Why? Because if CM can supposedly "fix" unwanted behaviours quickly, then why faff about with any other type of training? Our behaviourist doesn't have her own show, she's isn't earning millions and there are no instant results with her methods so she mustn't be as good as CM and those who use his style of "training"

I think that's one of the biggest reasons why good trainers and behaviourists are so thin on the ground. Nobody trusts them because CM knows best.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sosha said:


> If it involves dogs that would normally/otherwise be on a one way trip to the vets? Maybe yes? Nobody is going to score a perfect on that criteria & I'm not sure there's anything more traumatic than being dumped in a council pound.


I would think ending up in CM's centre for the rest of your days is a fate far worse than a peaceful death, If I had to make that choice for any of my dogs (one of them came via a council pound) then I would go for a peaceful PTS rather than let him traumatise my dogs any day of the week and that is not a decision I would take lightly.


----------



## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Thank you for your long long post to me @leashedForLife but there was really no need. As I said in previous posts that was to ignore my first post. And if you had read my posts properly you would know that. This thread is getting boring now . No offence taken .


----------



## Guest (Mar 21, 2016)

Sosha said:


> As far as Holly's owners, they'd got in such a state anyway, that I wouldn't have laid any money on the dog remaining in that house regardless of Mr Milan's approach to resource guarding.


Isn't it the job of a good trainer and/or behaviorist to have good people skills too?
A good trainer/behaviorist is going to be able to write up a plan for how to cope with the behavior (and in the case of resource guarding, it's not that complicated - with this dog even less so as she only guarded her food bowl, not other objects. So basically twice a day this needed to be addressed, that's it).
Then you add in some expectations for how soon you should see improvements, call in and check on progress, and support the owner through the behavior modification.

Do you have any idea how many trainers and behaviorists deal with run-of-the-mill resource guarding with huge success rates? There was NO reason for Holly to lose her home other than CM screwing her up way worse than she was to begin with, creating a major liability by pushing her in to a bite and saddling her with a bite history, and failing to help and reassure the owners that this was manageable and very fixable behavior. 
He basically egged her in to her worst reaction to RG yet, which instead of reassuring the owners actually made them more afraid of the dog and less willing to work for her. 
One of the numerous, numerous reasons why there is absolutely zero need to incite a dog in to their worst behavior in order to address it.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Nettles said:


> We were lucky that the closest behaviourist to us turned out to be fantastic and I'm always singing her praises. I dread to think what could have happened if we'd worked with someone else.
> 
> Some of my family though have the impression that our behaviourist is some sort of tree hugging hippy because her methods are kinder and nothing like CM's.
> 
> ...


Heyhey, peace out, fellow tree hugger, people think the same of us too.  I absolutely agree with you here. And I think you have something with the 'quick fix' thing too.

CM appears to get instant results. That's what they want on camera. That's what everyone wants. What they don't show is the follow up that shows that these quick fixes largely just do not work.

I wish they did. Gawd, how I wish they did. Our Willow would have been cured ages ago, I'd be several hundred quid better off and I'd be wearing a I heart Cesar tee-shirt right now.

Funnily enough she is not and I am not. 

The dominance trainers all knew how to shoosh her but none helped her reactivity at all. Actually made it worse.

The behaviourist now is fantastic but, lordy, would that make dull viewing. Weeks and weeks of me and Willow "watch, watch, watch" treat treat treat in our garden. Then weeks of watch watch watch treat treat treat in the street. Then weeks of...ack, well, you get the picture. :Yawn 

Who wants that when you can provoke aggression and shut it down with a tssh, a grapple and a kick, all to a dramatic soundtrack!?

We may not be entertaining training ninjas a la Cesar but at least its working. And no one has been bitten. Imagine!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Jackien4:

Thank you for your long long post to me, LeashedForLife, but there was really no need. As I said
previously, "ignore my first post"... if you'd read my posts properly, you'd know that.
This thread is getting boring, now . No offense taken .

/QUOTE
.
.
Unfortunately, i just saw this thread today, & as i can only read the posts sequentially, that
1st post came many posts before Ur later admonition to ignore it, sorry. By the time i saw
the post that said, _"please ignore my original post, i've looked at more CM-footage & i've_
_changed my mind", _i'd already replied pages back. :-(
.
OTOH, all the suggestions i made in my reply still hold for anyone who doesn't know about
CM/DW - or Ian Dunbar, or Trish King, or Pat McConnell, or Suzanne Hetts, or Steve White,
or any of the other overwhelmingly-Pos-R trainers who do both training and B-Mod.
So i'm going to let my reply stand as it is, for all those folks.
.
I'd like to add that i applaud U for looking into CM's practices further & changing Ur mind -
it's extremely difficult to publicly change one's opinion, & i do understand that U hadn't seen
many episodes; besides, they are slickly edited & carefully scripted programs.
Every episode is designed to produce a specific series of emotions in the viewer; everything
from the background music to rearranged video clips is used to make a specific impression.
The dog is out of control, the owner is hapless & ineffective, & Mr Millan is the savior who
intervenes & saves the day.
That this script is frequently misleading & always emotionally manipulative is beside the
point. ::EyeRoll:: :--D
.
.
.


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Wee T said:


> Heyhey, peace out, fellow tree hugger, people think the same of us too.  I absolutely agree with you here. And I think you have something with the 'quick fix' thing too.
> 
> CM appears to get instant results. That's what they want on camera. That's what everyone wants. What they don't show is the follow up that shows that these quick fixes largely just do not work.
> 
> ...


If you think your training show would be boring, can you imagine how mind numbing ours would be with SA? A week of walking out of a room.. and then straight back in. It was practically thrilling when we progressed to 10 second intervals :Hilarious

And 9 months later.. we're on an hour in a room by herself, and 15 minutes in the house by herself.

Good old CM could have beat that out of her in one show. It wouldn't matter that she'd be completely shut down and still terrified. You don't see that bit on the telly so it's not relevant.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Nettles,

... imagine how mind-numbing [the videos] would be [of our dog's] SA [B-Mod sessions]?
A week of walking out of a room... then straight back in. It was practically thrilling when we progressed to 10 second intervals :Hilarious

And 9 months later.. we['ve reached] an hour in a room [solo], & 15 minutes in the house by herself.
...

/QUOTE
.
.
Are U using OTC calmatives? If not, take a look at post #22 of the sticky, *"Dog Body-language"*.
It explains How, When, Where, What, etc; they're very safe & have no dangerous interactions
with food, any medications, etc.
Calmatives can help shorten the B-Mod process by reducing the dog's overall stress. 
.
.
.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Nettles said:


> If you think your training show would be boring, can you imagine how mind numbing ours would be with SA? A week of walking out of a room.. and then straight back in. It was practically thrilling when we progressed to 10 second intervals :Hilarious
> 
> And 9 months later.. we're on an hour in a room by herself, and 15 minutes in the house by herself.
> 
> Good old CM could have beat that out of her in one show. It wouldn't matter that she'd be completely shut down and still terrified. You don't see that bit on the telly so it's not relevant.


HahahahaZZZzzzzzz...  yeah, although _I'd _rather watch that, it's not going to cut the mustard entertainment wise. Unfortunately.

Made me think though....I wonder how CM would tackle SA. Can't see how looming over a dog, backing her into a corner or poking her or tsshing would fit. From what I've seen, after that he's out of moves.


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> And you felt the need to quote my post in order to write this because ? Could you either write something relevant to my post or not quote me. This business of quoting someone then making a counter argument to a point that was never made is poor netiquette. Thanks in advance.


Sorry, I meant to agree with you, but it came out all wrong.


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Nettles,
> 
> ... imagine how mind-numbing [the videos] would be [of our dog's] SA [B-Mod sessions]?
> A week of walking out of a room... then straight back in. It was practically thrilling when we progressed to 10 second intervals :Hilarious
> ...


Thanks, yes we've tried a few OTC and herbal calmatives but with no improvement. Vet and behaviourist aren't recommending any prescribed meds while we're still making progress so we'll just keep going at her pace until we need to change the plan of action


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Wee T said:


> Made me think though....I wonder how CM would tackle SA


*jumps up and down waving my arm* :Singing:Singing:Singing
I know, I know the answer. He would use his "special gift" and ASK the dog how it wants him to tackle the situation


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

@DEIFENBAKER - I apologise!! I got so carried away because the mere mention of this idiot annoys me so much, I got confused. Had I realised I was quoting you, I would not have. Please forgive me!! This is the affect talk of that creature has on me; sends all sense out of my head and lets in only fury.:Watching:Vomit


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nettles said:


> *jumps up and down waving my arm* :Singing:Singing:Singing
> I know, I know the answer. He would use his "special gift" and ASK the dog how it wants him to tackle the situation


Ohhh no...you see if you make sure you are the pack leader then your dog would never have suffered from SA Dontcha know!!!

I wish I was joking 

If you watch the "educational" video that he has, you get to see his lovely Junior all shut down, giving out appeasement signals left, right and center tho


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Ohhh no...you see if you make sure you are the pack leader then your dog would never have suffered from SA Dontcha know!!!
> 
> I wish I was joking
> 
> If you watch the "educational" video that he has, you get to see his lovely Junior all shut down, giving out appeasement signals left, right and center tho


Ach dammit! I almost said "pack leader" but changed to "special gift" at the last minute 

I'll avoid the educational video if that's what I can expect to see


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> @Dogloverlou I think the dog was not only exhausted but suffering from shock and the fact that his penis was out could have been due to a shortage of oxygen from being strangled rather than being relaxed.


Exactly. When blood can't circulate to the brain properly in strangulation, it has to go somewhere. It's the same sort of thing as people who deliberately half-strangle or half hang themselves to get a sexual kick. And that idiot CM called it dominance.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking from personal experience here!



Wee T said:


> HahahahaZZZzzzzzz...  yeah, although _I'd _rather watch that, it's not going to cut the mustard entertainment wise. Unfortunately.
> 
> *Made me think though....I wonder how CM would tackle SA*. Can't see how looming over a dog, backing her into a corner or poking her or tsshing would fit. From what I've seen, after that he's out of moves.


Simple. A few minutes with him and the dog would realise that being left alone was the best thing ever.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Burrowzig:

Exactly. *When blood can't circulate to the brain properly in strangulation, i must go somewhere.
..the same ... as when people deliberately half-strangle themselves to *[*intensify*] *a sexual kick.* 
*And that idiot CM called it 'dominance'.*
...
/QUOTE
.
.
Yup - tumescence AKA a penile erection is a common side-effect of hanging, & was part of 
the entertainment when hanging a criminal [or an innocent man, convicted anyway] was a
public event. People took their kids to see hangings; vendors sold hotcakes & drinks to the
crowd. The executioner was a rock-star who wore a hood.
.
If the hanged man ejaculated while dying, the semen was thought to have 'special value' in
witchcraft - or demonic masses, Satanic rituals, what-have-U.
.
Since "witchcraft" was often a catch-all that included herbalists & midwives who were too
good at their calling, & especially wealthy widows whose property could be confiscated by
the Church [with no pesky living husband to defend them in law], I suspect the 'special' sta-
tus of a hanged man's semen was just another Old Husbands' tale, a way of assigning both
male power to the semen, & the taint of disgust to women accused of "witchery".
.
If U look at video of CM hoisting the Malemute-X by his neck, & pinning the red Jindo to the
floor while he struggles & p*sses himself in panic, both dogs' penises are tumescent - due
to semi-strangulation, which, yes, is not only painful but terrifying.
If U've ever choked on food or inhaled water, U'd know that terror intimately. It's visceral.
After a choking incident, the person's hands often shake & their voices will quiver when they
speak; their palms sweat. It takes awhile to recover & feel 'safe' again.
.
For anyone who might be tempted to try strangulation as a sexual thrill, every day, i'm sure,
there are deaths by misadventure in the world due to this "fun" activity. It's very dangerous.
Of course, so is drinking & driving, playing chicken on back-roads, & other classically male
risk-taking "fun". Please be careful; if Ur own life doesn't matter, think of the poor folks who
must investigate afterwards, & clean up the debris, including bodies. Have pity on them.
.
.
.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Burrowzig:
> 
> Exactly. *When blood can't circulate to the brain properly in strangulation, i must go somewhere.
> ..the same ... as when people deliberately half-strangle themselves to *[*intensify*] *a sexual kick.*
> ...


Goodness, you learn something new everyday on this forum and quite often it has nothing to do with dogs.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Siskin said:


> Goodness, you learn something new everyday on this forum and quite often it has nothing to do with dogs.


Yup, I now know a lot more about auto-erotic asphyxiation than I I ever thought I would know. Isn't that how Michael Hutchence died?


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> Yup, I now know a lot more about auto-erotic asphyxiation than I I ever thought I would know. Isn't that how Michael Hutchence died?


It was. A whole generation got to find out about that whether they wanted to or not


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

My Joshua always had his willy sticking out and you could not have found a dog less dominant if you looked. Some of the members here met Joshua so will confirm that he was just a big, soft giant puppy dog who loved everyone. I even took him to the vet because I was afraid there was something wrong with him and that he couldn't put it back in!


----------



## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

Lulus mum said:


> I would so much like to shake Cesar Milan-and say "He 's learning."


A bit more than shake ,I think,perhaps alpha roll him?


----------



## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

Lulus mum said:


> I would so much like to shake Cesar Milan-and say "He 's learning."


A little more than shake,I think,perhaps Alpha Roll him while he is wearing a shock collar?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Can't remember if this has already been posted but just in case - Victoria Stilwell's response

https://positively.com/victorias-blog/orca-whales-and-pig-killing-dogs-when-will-the-madness-stop/


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, NewfiesMum:

My Joshua always had his willy sticking out and you could not have found a dog less dominant if you looked.
Some of the members here met Joshua so will confirm that he was just a big, soft giant puppy dog who loved
everyone.

I even took him to the vet... *I was afraid there was something wrong*...* & he couldn't put it back in!*

/QUOTE
.
.
Hi, Newf-mum. 
I know U've posted about Ferdie's lipstick problem before, so U've already heard this - but it's
been awhile, & i'll repeat myself for any male-dog owners who might have a concern.
.
From here on, "dog" = male dog, to simplify things. :-D
.
The mammalian penis is a hydraulic system, & fluid pressure pumps the penis up; a pending
bowel movement can create enuf pressure in the abdomen to erect the penis, & push it out of
the dog's sheathe.
.
Also, some dogs are easily excited & react to nonsexual stimuli with an erection; he might be
happy to see U come home from work, & have an erection, or see the agility set-up & his penis
slides out. Teen-aged dogs are especially prone to this "overlapping" of a nonsexual stimulus &
a penile response; most outgrow it.
If it really bothers U, take him away from the exciting thing & give him a few minutes doing some-
thing else - "sniffing" is a good self-calming activity. If he's ball-mad, toss a ball to fetch. Play tug!
Milling around with the other dogs & owners with Ur face aflame, trying to make small-talk while
he stares at the agility set-up / other thrilling stimulus & pants heavily, won't help.
.
If U want to die of embarrassment every time Ur dog's penis appears, next time, get a bitch.
He's not doing it on purpose, it's no reflection on U, & penises are amoral, no matter which male
they are attached to; it's just plumbing.
.
I forgot - some males 'relax' so much that their penis unsheathes, & again, that's normal for them.
I've met geldings who had this habit, & while it's a bit odd, it's not a medical problem per se,
but a vet should still check to be sure there isn't an issue.
.
It is *possible *for a dog's penis to get stuck outside the sheathe, for a number of reasons -
cool water & a water-based lubricant [K-Y jelly or similar] usually reduce the discomfort, but
he should still be seen by a vet ASAP, even if it goes down promptly & sheathes itself, just to
confirm there's no lasting damage, nor an underlying medical issue.
.
Because it hurts, he'll want to lick it to soothe the pain; don't let him, it only stimulates the
penis & helps maintain the erection. Head for the vet's & keep his tongue away from it.
An Elizabethan collar / cone collar or basket-muzzle are very helpful; so is a chill-pack [a gel
filled envelope from an AC-cooled house or the refrigerator, *not* frozen].
.
Thankfully, this is a rare problem - most male dogs go thru their lives without any such exper-
ience, & that's good, cause it's very ouchy.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
This is the most-recent article i could find, in the U-S press -
.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...abuse-allegations_us_56e42152e4b0860f99d93525
.
Unfortunately, it's from the 12th of March; no updates since. But the COMMENTS below it
are sad confirmation that we have a lot of work to do, educating ppl about dogs, their innate
behavior, & the best ways to teach them desired behaviors.
.
HINT:
Turning a dog with a history of pig-killing loose to attack a restrained pig isn't a 'best way'.
If anything, it's a "worst way", as it gives the dog another opportunity to rehearse the same
aggro behavior.
.
It's incredible, how many ppl continue to think of CM/DW as knowledgeable about dogs,
gentle, tender in their care, humane in his handling & when 'correcting' / punishing, etc.
He is consistent in just one thing, IMO: he sets dogs up to fail. :-(
*.*
*.*
*.*


----------



## Guest (Mar 22, 2016)

If TMZ is to be believed as a news source, it looks like the investigators are finishing up and sadly seem favorable towards CM saying that there did not appear to be intent to harm the pig. *sigh*

Perhaps another way to address this whole issue is to bring up the fact that no reality show is required to use the "no animals were harmed" tag from the American Humane Association - which is actually based in LA.

Speaking of, here is there message regarding this incident:
http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/news-releases/message-to-nat-geo-reality.html


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I'm a bit miffed at the AHA - they do good work, don't get me wrong, but they also made a truly Godawful executive decision re CM/DW, some years back.
.
In Sept-2006, they posted a very strongly-worded criticism of Mr Millan on the Web; it was an excerpt from a letter sent to Nat'l-Geo channel, & they issued it as a press-release; in 2009, they changed their collective minds & removed it from the Web, while they negotiated with him to try to agree upon some minimum standards for tools, methods, etc, As Seen On his TV-show.
.
I mean, REALLY! - it was posted for 3 years; it was obviously not slanderous or actionable [CM/DW has a stable of lawyers on retainer & frequently threatens ppl who criticize him publicly; if it was actionable, he'd have acted], & taking it down did nothing to move their talks closer to a resolution.
.
.
=========== PASTED COPY BELOW ====================================

'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful
Denver (September 6, 2006)

The training tactics featured on Cesar Millan's "Dog Whisperer" program are inhumane, outdated and improper, according to a letter sent yesterday to the Natl. Geographic Channel by American Humane.

In the letter, American Humane expressed dismay over the "numerous inhumane training techniques" advocated by Cesar Millan on "Dog Whisperer."

Several instances of cruel and dangerous treatment, promoted by Millan as acceptable training methods, were documented, including one in which a dog was partially-asphyxiated. In the episode, the fractious dog was pinned to the ground by its neck after first being "hung" by a collar incrementally-tightened by Millan. Millan'sgoal, subduing the animal, was accomplished by partially cutting-off the blood-supply to the dog's brain.

The letter requests Natl. Geographic Channel stop airing the program immediately, and issue a statement explaining the tactics featured are inhumane. It encourages the Channel to develop programs setting positive examples by featuring proper, humane training.
In its letter, AHA said: "We believe that achieving the goal of improving the way people interact with their pets would be far more successful and beneficial for the National Geographic Channel if it ceased sending the contradictory message that violent treatment of animals is acceptable."

"As a forerunner in the movement towards humane dog training, we find the excessively-rough handling of animals on the show, and the inhumane training methods, to be potentially harmful for the animals and the people on the show," said the letter's author, Bill Torgerson, DVM, MBA, who is vice president of Animal Protection Services for American Humane. "It also does a disservice to all the show's viewers, by espousing an inaccurate message about what constitutes effective training and appropriate treatment of animals."

Torgerson noted that the safety of a woman and her German Shepherd were jeopardized in one episode, using a shock-collar; the tormented dog redirected aggression to the owner, biting her arm. "Furthermore, the television audience was never told that Mr. Millan was attempting to modify the dog's behavior by causing pain with the shock collar," he said.

For more information about humane training techniques, please
visit www.americanhumane.org<http://www.americanhumane.org/>.

About American Humane Assoc.
Founded in 1877, AHA is the oldest national org dedicated to protecting both children and animals. Through a network of child- and animal-protection agencies and individuals, the AHA develops policies, legislation, curricula and training programs to protect children and animals from abuse, neglect and exploitation.
The nonprofit membership organization, HQ'd in Denver, raises awareness about The Link® between animal-abuse and other forms of violence, as well as benefits from the human-animal bond.

AHA's regional office in LA is the authority behind the "No Animals Were Harmed"® End Credit Disclaimer on film/TV productions; the office in Washington is an advocate for federal and state child and animal protection.
AHA is endorsed by the BBB's Wise-Giving Alliance and has been awarded the Independent Charities Seal of Excellence.
Visit www.americanhumane.org<http://www.americanhumane.org/> to learn more.

============== END QUOTE ===========
.
.
Removing it from the Web only made it seem that his tactics had become less objectionable [wrong] & that they 'approved' of his TV-program - which they didn't & don't. Asinine move.
.
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Ohhh no...you see if you make sure you are the pack leader then your dog would never have suffered from SA Dontcha know!!!
> 
> I wish I was joking


Before I joined this forum and learned so much more from experts like Terry Pride, I rang one of those Jan Fennell 'listeners' - never heard of her at the time - to help get Ferdie in the car as that was a nightmare. She told me that if he knew I was the pack leader he would go follow me into the car, just because I wanted him to, even if he was terrified of it. It sounded unlikely to me so I looked her up and found lots of helpful reviews and decided not to bother.

I then got another trainer on recommendation who spent two whole Sunday afternoons playing with him, bringing her own dog and playing with them both and giving them bits of chicken when they got in. Worked a treat and she obviously knew what she was doing, but the sad thing was she still told me CM was brilliant even though her training resembled his in no way, shape or form. I think a lot of people are so brainwashed by his tv persona, they don't even realise their methods work so much better.



leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, NewfiesMum:
> 
> My Joshua always had his willy sticking out and you could not have found a dog less dominant if you looked.
> Some of the members here met Joshua so will confirm that he was just a big, soft giant puppy dog who loved
> ...


Gee, Terry, you have a knack for making dogs and wolves seem more like human males every time. :Kiss


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

komondor_owner said:


> I'm guessing you haven't seen a henhouse full of dead chickens. It's not a nice sight. Foxes are clever, and evil. They don't kill things to eat, they kill them for fun. And they will happily spend night after night working out how to get in.
> 
> OK, so what about killing a rat? A mouse? A fish? A bee? A fly? A germ? You have a line, just like everyone else. "Abuse is abuse" is an absurd thing to say. It's not as clear cut as that.


I hate this mentality, it is so ignorant . Foxes take the opportunity of maximising on a surplus food source by caching what they cant eat. Exactly like squirrels do when they bury nuts for when times are hard. Its tough out there surviving in the wild. Foxes have developed this strategy to give them a better chance.

I don't deliberately kill anything (except germs or parasites on animals) . Those creatures you mention all have an important roll to play in nature & have just as much right to life as we do.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> If TMZ is to be believed as a news source, it looks like the investigators are finishing up and sadly seem favorable towards CM saying that there did not appear to be intent to harm the pig. *sigh*


I hope theyre not, after seeing this on YouTube, and the dogs owner stands watching. Words fail me

Cesar Millan, "I got this" - YouTube


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> I hate this mentality, it is so ignorant . Foxes take the opportunity of maximising on a surplus food source by caching what they cant eat. Exactly like squirrels do when they bury nuts for when times are hard. Its tough out there surviving in the wild. Foxes have developed this strategy to give them a better chance.
> 
> I don't deliberately kill anything (except germs or parasites on animals) . Those creatures you mention all have an important roll to play in nature & have just as much right to life as we do.


I would say more right, quite honestly. I upset a pupil once on a driving lesson when I made her stop for a rat which was crossing the road. I told her to brake and it was perfectly safe to do so, nothing behind us, and she said: but it's a rat. So what? Animals don't go round causing wars and trying to impose their opinions on everyone else, neither are they cruel for no good reason.

I did have a pupil who speeded up when she saw a cat crossing the road. When I used my brake and asked her if she had seen the cat she responded that she had but she hated cats. I refused to book her again, told her to find someone else.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Honeys mum said:


> I hope theyre not, after seeing this on YouTube, and the dogs owner stands watching. Words fail me
> 
> Cesar Millan, "I got this" - YouTube


That's what I never understand. Don't they have any sense of responsibility for the protection of their animals? If someone intimidated my dog I'm damned if I would simply let him do it.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> I did have a pupil who speeded up when she saw a cat crossing the road. When I used my brake and asked her if she had seen the cat she responded that she had but she hated cats.


What a nasty little *****!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MiffyMoo said:


> What a nasty little *****!


My thoughts precisely. Another one got very upset when I stopped the car and got out to pick up a ginger moggie who decided the middle of the road was a good place to have a nap! She wasn't being mean though, was just scared it might scratch me. She wanted to try and go round it but the cat would only have had to move and we would have run it over; I couldn't risk that.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> That's what I never understand. Don't they have any sense of responsibility for the protection of their animals? If someone intimidated my dog I'm damned if I would simply let him do it.


I'm sure they must have to sign something that they will not interfere or react on camera. And of course if they do, they are reprimanded and that bit is edited out. Probably didn't want to lose their five minutes of fame. Disgusting.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lorilu said:


> I'm sure they must have to sign something that they will not interfere or react on camera. And of course if they do, they are reprimanded and that bit is edited out. Probably didn't want to lose their five minutes of fame. Disgusting.


But I wouldn't sign such a document, would you? My dogs were more important to me than any five minutes of fame.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> But I wouldn't sign such a document, would you? My dogs were more important to me than any five minutes of fame.


No of course _I_ wouldn't. I wouldn't let that guy anywhere near a pet of mine. But as you know sadly many people think he is the end all, not to mention getting on TV, and do sign these documents and then stand there like idiots watching their dogs be destroyed.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2016)

Yes, there are strict non-disclosure agreements not only for the owners, but for the owners of facilities he uses. So even spectators can’t disclose what happened in their presence. 

I don’t fault owners for being sucked in to the dog whisperer phenomenon. That is exactly what the show is set up to do - make you believe that this person works miracles. Not everyone has the same dog experience or knowledge to not be sucked in, and there in lies the danger of pseudo “experts” like Millan. 

Add in the non-disclosure agreements where no one can say what exactly is going on, and inexperienced owners get totally sucked in and basically manipulated in to allowing their dogs to be mistreated.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2016)

Published yesterday in the Latin Times:
http://www.latintimes.com/cesar-mil...new-footage-could-acquit-dog-whisperer-376382

*Cesar Millan *found himself swimming in hot waters earlier this month, when it was announced that he was being investigated for animal cruelty. The controversy surfaced after *Nat Geo WILD *released a promo of one of Millan's upcoming episodes, where a dog named *Simon* appears to be attacking a pig during a training exercise. Many viewers were disturbed by the images and filed several complaints with the *Los Angeles County Department of Animal Care and Control*.

Millan, who is known around the world as the "Dog Whisperer," immediately denied all allegations and claimed that the images were taken out of context. Likewise, the channel released a statement assuring that Millan took all the appropriate measures while shooting the show, and that the session had in fact, "helped Simon to overcome his aggressive behavior toward other animals; as a result, Simon did not have to be separated from his owner or euthanized."

On Monday, it was reported that Cesar could be acquit from all charges thanks to the release of a new video that shows a little bit more of what happened that day. In the new footage, we can see Millan trying to stop the dog from attacking the pig and not encouraging any violent attacks of any kind. Sources at the L.A. County Dept. of Animal Care and Control told TMZ that it is likely for the case to be closed after investigators agreed that Cesar seemed to be jumping into action to save the pig.

"We are using the video [as evidence] - and not just the clip, which takes it completely out of context," *Aaron Reyes*, an Animal Care and Control spokesperson, told Page Six. "We were able to talk to people that were on the scene, we were able to see the pic and we talked to Cesar and his attorney."

However, Cesar has not been absolved of negligence. Investigators believe he could've put a little more thought into the training session, but feel it can be best handled with a conversation urging corrective action rather than filing animal cruelty charges. Watch the full footage below and let us know your opinion. Should the case be closed?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Published yesterday in the Latin Times:
> http://www.latintimes.com/cesar-mil...new-footage-could-acquit-dog-whisperer-376382
> 
> *Cesar Millan *found himself swimming in hot waters earlier this month, when it was announced that he was being investigated for animal cruelty. The controversy surfaced after *Nat Geo WILD *released a promo of one of Millan's upcoming episodes, where a dog named *Simon* appears to be attacking a pig during a training exercise. Many viewers were disturbed by the images and filed several complaints with the *Los Angeles County Department of Animal Care and Control*.
> ...


 Unfortunately, I'm not surprised


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not surprised


Money and good lawyers....


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Hmm. Case almost closed or will remain open for a year? 

Just read an update on Jill Brietner's change.org petition that claims the investigation may be kept open for one year to gather more evidence.

She's urging people to use this opportunity to come forward with any abuse they may have witnessed.

The paragraph alluding to that is within the copy and paste of entire text. Have flanked it with #### in case you don't want to wade through entire thing.

******* Copy and paste *******

Ban Cesar Millan. Shame On You National Geographic

jill breitner sebastopol, CA

Cesar Millans methods are inhumane, in my opinion and his shows need to be taken off the air. In this episode, Cesar used pigs as bait for a dog who was a known pig killer and all for "entertainment" purposes and this is not the first time he has used bait animals. This is wrong! Using animals for bait is against the law.

A complaint has been filed to Animal Control for animal cruelty for using animals as bait in Cesar911 Reality TV shows. Cesar Millan is currently under investigation for animal cruelty. We need your help. We need to have the voice of MILLIONS of you shouting now NO MORE abuse on any Reality TV shows again.

########

One of the officers on this investigation with Animal Control called me today March 22, 2016, asking for more people to speak up and come forward about any abuse they witnessed while working, volunteering and or as a trainee in one of his courses at the DPC. He said that this case will remain open for a year so that people will have time to come forward as witnesses to any abuse to any animals. Please call with any concrete evidence not angry calls, CONCRETE evidence that you yourself witnessed any kind of abuse while working with, volunteering or as a trainee at the DPC. 562-658-2000 ask for Deputy Ferrufino.

#######

Please sign the petition.

It will be sent to Courteney Monroe, CEO of National Geographic.

The American Humane Association is responsible for the protection of animals during the filming of any movie or tv. I spoke with Mark Stubis, the head of communications with AHA who put out this statement.

Their contact information is: [email protected] and call them: 818-501-0123 or 818-574-7779.

MESSAGE TO NAT GEO REALITY SHOW: ABUSE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE

"Animal abuse is never acceptable, and should never be tolerated.

American Humane Association has received complaints regarding an episode of a Nat Geo reality television series featuring Cesar Millan. As this country's first national humane organization, we are always vigilant about stopping abuse wherever it occurs.

We saw what so many concerned Americans saw in that segment. Clearly, the treatment of the animals did not meet our stringent "Guidelines for the Safe Use of Animals in Filmed Media." American Humane Association oversees the humane treatment of animals around the world with our No Animals Were Harmed® animal welfare program, but sadly we are not invited to protect the animals featured in reality television productions.

We call on the entertainment industry to have American Humane Association on all of their productions with animals, including reality television, so that American Humane Association can ensure that all animals in entertainment are safe and humanely treated.

Situations like this should never, ever happen again. All animals deserve to be humanely treated, and abuse must end now."

According to California State Law 
West's Annotated California Codes. Penal Code. Part 1. Of Crimes and Punishments. Title 14. Malicious Mischief. § 597. Cruelty to animals 
..."(a) Except as provided in subdivision (c) of this section or Section 599c, every person who maliciously and intentionally maims, mutilates, tortures, or wounds a living animal, or maliciously and intentionally kills an animal, is guilty of a crime punishable pursuant to subdivision (d).
(b) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (a) or (c), every person who overdrives, overloads, drives when overloaded, overworks, tortures, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance, drink, or shelter, cruelly beats, mutilates, or cruelly kills any animal, or causes or procures any animal to be so overdriven, overloaded, driven when overloaded, overworked, tortured, tormented, deprived of necessary sustenance, drink, shelter, or to be cruelly beaten, mutilated, or cruelly killed; and whoever, having the charge or custody of any animal, either as owner or otherwise, subjects any animal to needless suffering, or inflicts unnecessary cruelty upon the animal, or in any manner abuses any animal, or fails to provide the animal with proper food, drink, or shelter or protection from the weather, or who drives, rides, or otherwise uses the animal when unfit for labor, is, for each offense, guilty of a crime punishable pursuant to subdivision (d)....

This law is also stated in the petition but for your use when you are emailing and calling.

Demand that Cesar Millan shows be to taken off the air. His shows cause the public to imitate his behavior with their own dogs causing children to witness abuse in their own homes to their family pets. This needs to stop.

We NEED your support. We are their voice.

*****/end******


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Precisely the fact that he uses gag-orders to keep everything "secret" is, IMO & IME, a dam*ed good reason to look very carefully at everything he does - or says, or implies, or conversely, DOESN'T do, or say, or imply.
That kind of micromanagement & overbearing control is IMO an indicator - it's a red flag, the person who must apply these stringent controls on the behavior of other persons [human & nonhuman] is one of 3 things: on a power-trip, deeply paranoid, or both.
.
It's the same kind of behavior seen in hypercontrolling, jealous boyfriends or husbands, denying the GF/wife the right to spend time with family or friends, deciding what they can do, where they can go... or stalkers who send letters or e-mails to their unrequited love-object - their messages are special, not to be shared, their connection gives them the right to interfere in the adored one's life.
.
Gag-orders in a court of law SOMETIMES serve a good, valid purpose [protecting the identity of a minor, victim, etc], but CM/DW has also insisted upon gag-orders for the multiple cases that he has settled out of court. IMO, the only thing that protects is his "brand".
.
.
Meanwhile, in strong contrast, we have the many trainers who use overwhelmingly Pos-R as their method of choice, & whose training or B-Mod processes can be seen on UTube, or read about in articles, or discussed on forums freely, everywhere.
Heck, U can join the Yahoo-group for *Levels*-training, bounce ideas off the group or ask for help, have a written outline to follow that advances the dog's training thru each exercise logically & incrementally, & even compete in virtual "matches" to see whose team did the best at designing & executing a training plan, or a series of tricks, or what-have-U.
And it's all free.
.
_good, humane training isn't a "secret", nor an "instinct"._
_U aren't born knowing it - U learn it. It's a set of skills,_
_plus pretty simple rules, that virtually anyone can learn._
_Best of all, *you can 'do this at home' *- it's safe._
_Nobody has to certify U before U start muddling thru it._
_Go ahead, make mistakes! - They're part of learning,_
_not just for the dogs, but for everyone involved._
_Relax, have fun, go train._
_.
.
._


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Published yesterday in the Latin Times:
> http://www.latintimes.com/cesar-mil...new-footage-could-acquit-dog-whisperer-376382
> 
> *Cesar Millan *found himself swimming in hot waters earlier this month, when it was announced that he was being investigated for animal cruelty. The controversy surfaced after *Nat Geo WILD *released a promo of one of Millan's upcoming episodes, where a dog named *Simon* appears to be attacking a pig during a training exercise. Many viewers were disturbed by the images and filed several complaints with the *Los Angeles County Department of Animal Care and Control*.
> ...


Oh well that's thoroughly depressing.... but not altogether surprising.

Oh, of course, Mr Animal Care and Control, he was taken out of context. Silly us.

Was heartened ever so slightly that they recognise that he is not entirely blameless but "could've put more thought into the training" is laughably understating it. Pathetic.

It should boggle my mind that even Animal Care and Control can't see how wholly unqualified - how frighteningly wide off the mark - he is at animal behaviour and training and call him out but sad fact is I'm not surprised.

There's so much money, hype, ratings and fame here muddying the waters.

No one wants to be the wee boy who points out the Emperor is stark bollock naked, abusive and talking absolute shite. 

And so the tenuous defence will continue. By people in positions who should know much better.

Blind eyes being turned everywhere. Mine are rolling back in my head so much I fear they may never come back down.   

:Vomit


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I'd like to point out that Mr Millan has total control over the editing process, as well as the entire production of his shows - every episode & each frame of film, plus the scripted voice-overs, is under his control. From the very beginning, choosing WHICH dogs to use & WHICH owners will be compliant, it's all his baby.
So what we see as a finished product on screen is not "raw footage", it's a carefully designed package that unfolds over time, with scripted emotional content & manipulated images & sound.
.
This wasn't an event that someone saw on the set during filming & reported; it was a sequence in a broadcast episode that upset a lot of viewers, & it MUST have been "a lot", as trainers, vets, groomers, ACC officers, & other dog-pros have complained vociferously from the very 1st episode of Season 1, & no one paid much notice - especially Nat'l-Geo channel.
They just sat back, smiled, & counted the intake. The more controversy, the better for ratings. Yippee!
.
Personally, i think that CM/DW uses a stooge dog as an agitator off-camera is among the very worst aspects of the entire process. One of his off-camera employees adopted a white GSD-mix from a shelter, with a known dog-aggro history.
THAT's the dog they use to get good, exciting, dramatic footage from dog-aggro or dog-reactive "clients' dogs".
IMO, keeping his DA-behavior alive & even intensifying it is an indefensible breach of contract, per his adoption; most shelters have U sign a contract stating that U will keep the dog healthy & safe, or they will take that dog back - s/he'll be repossessed, & 'repaired' - given medical care for neglect, B-Mod to reduce a problem behavior, etc - & then re-homed.
.
It wasn't until the 100th episode that his staffer explained on camera that "my dog is the foil", altho many, many trainers looking at finished episodes had wondered if the dogs were agitated before or during filming. Of course, with the gag on, no one could confirm this, & the AHA is not on set to ensure it doesn't happen... or see it, if it does.
I think deliberately setting the DA-dog up to practice his lunging, barking & threatening behavior is highly stressful for that dog, completely counterproductive, & in clear violation of the intent of the adoption contract. AND - of course! - it's equally stressful & counter-productive for the dog "guest", who predictably acts out.
.
That - IMO - isn't the behavior of an ethical trainer: setting up the adoptee to fail, reinforcing a highly undesirable behavior, & agitating a dog U are supposedly "rehabilitating", all to get some dramatic video.
It's equally unethical on the part of the adopter. The shelter should have swooped in & snatched that dog back, the day after that 100th episode aired. Shame on them. Shame on them all.
Ethics matter deeply - it isn't just that U get to the goal, but HOW U get there.
.
Of course, if the 'goal' is a shut-down dog who waits for permission to do anything other than breathe & have a pulse, i guess ethics become a nonissue. Barsteward.
.
.
.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> I'd like to point out that Mr Millan has total control over the editing process, as well as the entire production of his shows - every episode & each frame of film, plus the scripted voice-overs, is under his control. From the very beginning, choosing WHICH dogs to use & WHICH owners will be compliant, it's all his baby.
> So what we see as a finished product on screen is not "raw footage", it's a carefully designed package that unfolds over time, with scripted emotional content & manipulated images & sound.
> ...


Urgh. I don't even know what to say after reading that.

Dogs are just a pawn in the self-serving circle-jerk and tbh I don't think that'll change.

Too much power in the wrong hands.

What a truly horrible murky world that is.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, my baby bears have a whole page on Victoria Stilwell's blog demonstrating how positive training works best, even with giant breeds. I hope people see that. Unfortunately it will never be seen by the Dog Abuser's supporters because they will not look.:Cold


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I would say more right, quite honestly. I upset a pupil once on a driving lesson when I made her stop for a rat which was crossing the road. I told her to brake and it was perfectly safe to do so, nothing behind us, and she said: but it's a rat. So what? Animals don't go round causing wars and trying to impose their opinions on everyone else, neither are they cruel for no good reason.
> 
> I did have a pupil who speeded up when she saw a cat crossing the road. When I used my brake and asked her if she had seen the cat she responded that she had but she hated cats. I refused to book her again, told her to find someone else.


There is something seriously lacking in people who have no reverence for life. This attitude is all that is wrong with the world imo. No wonder we're is in such a state when life means so little to all too many people. Its hard to imagine how anyone could run over an animal on purpose - but I know from my own experiences that they do. I've seen badger haters gloating about running over badgers. Vile people.

I think its great that you ditched the potential cat killer - good work!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> There is something seriously lacking in people who have no reverence for life. This attitude is all that is wrong with the world imo. No wonder we're is in such a state when life means so little to all too many people. Its hard to imagine how anyone could run over an animal on purpose - but I know from my own experiences that they do. I've seen badger haters gloating about running over badgers. Vile people.
> 
> I think its great that you ditched the potential cat killer - good work!


She was not the only one I ditched or who ditched me when I couldn't keep my trap shut. One man having refresher lessons told me, with astonishment, that a colleague of his was so mad about animals, he was sure if she had the choice of saving an animal or a human she would choose the animal. 'So would I' says I, in response to which he stared at me in horror and did not rebook. Good riddance is what I say.

Another was a scientist who told me, very sadly, that she loved her work except she hated experimenting on dogs. You can imagine my reaction to that one! I told her there were enough nonces locked up she could experiment on and get a better result, to which I got preached to about human rights. I didn't rebook her either.

Oh, then there was the woman who, when driving past the vets in Cambridge, declared: That's a waste of money; medical care for a lower life form. She very nearly got shoved out of the car, but when she asked me if I went to church, she got my lecture about how Jesus took the time to heal a donkey and how come she thought she was superior to a creature who could guide a blind person about, know when it is safe to cross the road and even which train station to get out of, without understanding a word.

I should never have been working with people, let's face it!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> She was not the only one I ditched or who ditched me when I couldn't keep my trap shut. One man having refresher lessons told me, with astonishment, that a colleague of his was so mad about animals, he was sure if she had the choice of saving an animal or a human she would choose the animal. 'So would I' says I, in response to which he stared at me in horror and did not rebook. Good riddance is what I say.
> 
> Another was a scientist who told me, very sadly, that she loved her work except she hated experimenting on dogs. You can imagine my reaction to that one! I told her there were enough nonces locked up she could experiment on and get a better result, to which I got preached to about human rights. I didn't rebook her either.
> 
> ...


Hahaa You sound like my ideal instructor - perhaps I'd have stuck at it & passed my test if I'd had you


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> She was not the only one I ditched or who ditched me when I couldn't keep my trap shut. One man having refresher lessons told me, with astonishment, that a colleague of his was so mad about animals, he was sure if she had the choice of saving an animal or a human she would choose the animal. 'So would I' says I, in response to which he stared at me in horror and did not rebook. Good riddance is what I say.
> 
> Another was a scientist who told me, very sadly, that she loved her work except she hated experimenting on dogs. You can imagine my reaction to that one! I told her there were enough nonces locked up she could experiment on and get a better result, to which I got preached to about human rights. I didn't rebook her either.
> 
> ...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Then there was the time I tried to lure a wandering pit bull who I assume had escaped from somewhere. I am quite sure it was a pit bull as my niece in Canada has them and is always sending me pictures; I was worried that he might get picked up by the police and I happened to have some dog biscuits in my pocket (surprise, surprise). The girl I was with then said 'that's one of those dangerous dogs!' Yeah right. He couldn't have been more than nine months old but I didn't manage to catch him. I got close and he ran off, hopefully to his house. So much for dangerous!

I can't say as I miss the job one little bit.


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