# Nervous kittens - socialisation issues?



## Banzai (Jan 13, 2017)

Hi there,
I'd appreciate any opinions from breeders and owners alike!

I recently visited a litter of ten week old kittens in order to pick one. Having grown up with cats (and previously had a bad experience with a breeder) I've done as much research as I possibly could over the last six months of waiting, and hoped to find a litter of well socialised, healthy kittens who would be as interested/curious about me as I was about them!

What I found was slightly different. All the kittens were extremely shy, and once they were brought out of their cage (which I was surprised they were in), they spent my entire visit trying to hide anywhere they could. None of them were interested in me or even in the breeder, and they were very jumpy. 
I'm aware that cats can be nervous of new people, and aren't always friendly 'on cue' but I stayed there a long while (four hours, having travelled a long way to get there) and nothing much changed. One of the kittens was eventually happy exploring the room, but she seemed very nervous of any human movement and didn't want to be held at all. The others simply hid whenever they were allowed to and also flinched any time there was human movement. I was able to pick one up and stroke her for a few minutes, but overall they all seemed happier far away from humans.
One kitten also looked like he might be a bit ill. Much smaller than the others, sneezed a few times while I was there, and had what looked like runny eyes - although maybe this was because they'd recently had their vaccinations?

Does anyone think their nervousness might be because they didn't grow up in the house? They were born and kept separately in a nursery until a week ago (age ten weeks), and I'm wondering if this means they haven't been well socialised. I had been under the impression that they had been exposed to people and human lifestyles, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
The breeder's adults are all outside in pens, both male and female. None of the cats or kittens seemed especially pleased to see her, either, with quite a few shying away from contact.

For context, I've had cats all my life and have picked kittens a few times - I've never before experienced kittens that were so disinterested/nervy. I'm used to them being shy to start with, and then coming out once they realise you're friend not foe.

Finally,I asked whether it would be best, when the time came, to take the kittens home via the vet to get it all over and done with, and the breeder recommended I wait four weeks after bringing them home before taking them to the vet. Is this normal?!?

As I'm really, really most concerned with happy healthy well socialised kittens, is my concern justified? Is their nervousness something I could rectify once I got them at 14 weeks? The breeder is lovely and friendly so I'd be sad to back out especially after waiting for half a year, but I'm not confident in what I saw.

Any thoughts appreciated - thanks.
Banzai


----------



## Greydrift (Oct 13, 2015)

I can only comment from the perspective of someone who has raised a fair few orphan kittens. 

Once on the mend, and a few weeks old, the phrase I'd use to describe these ones would be 'pocket rockets'. 

When prospective owners came, the kittens were usually bombing all over them and the place, chasing paper balls and the like.

Your description doesn't sound like happy, socialised kittens, but please understand that I have no experience of breeding. Flinching and an aversion to contact would make me uneasy about a cat's circumstances/environment, as well as those of the kittens.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
_"run away! --- Run away!"..._
.
No, those sound like kitty disasters, & i'd leave them right where they are, thanks so much.  Sorry. I'd bet a dollar to a dime the kittens have lived outside all their sad little lives, in a pen, & are lousy prospects as pets; they're not even good potential breeding stock, as Mum-cat must be their happy, friendly, sociable role-model when the breeder or other humans come by to meet them.
.
Their sire must also be approachable, handleable, & relatively bomb-proof in a household setting to ensure he'll throw kittens of like temp.
So in a word, those kittens are an end game - nobody wants them, even if they have sterling pedigrees & their parents were tested to the Nth degree - they're lousy pets, they'd be lousy patients at the vet's, they're hopeless as future sires or dams.
She can keep 'em --- but of course, some soft-hearted boobie will come by & pay for each one, thinking they can "fix" her or him. Good luck to them.
.
.
.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I would walk away, does not sound like a good situation at all.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
what breed is it U yearn for, & what country / area are U in? -- possibly someone can refer U to an ethical breeder within that breed. 
.
.
.


----------



## Banzai (Jan 13, 2017)

Oh dear... thanks all, for confirming my suspicions. After waiting for so long, I'm feeling really sad but I have to agree that there were too many red flags to ignore. I didn't even mention the fact that all the pens outside had litter boxes absolutely packed full of cat mess.

I'm based in London and I'm looking for a pair of happy, healthy ragdoll kittens. I've had cats all my life and they're invaluable companions to me, so their happiness and early socialisation is of the greatest importance.
It seems there aren't a huge number of breeders around; all of those I enquire with aren't breeding at the moment, or will only start a list if you happen to call as soon as a litter is born (whenever that may be). I've been looking since May last year, walked away from a couple of breeders who were running kitten mills, and have sadly just wasted six months on this breeder too.

[FYI, I have considered adopting/rehoming, but my living circumstances mean that it would be best for me and the cats if I'm able to raise and train them myself (my freeholder has allowed me to keep pets on this understanding)]

I've attempted to gain advice/recommendations, but it seems to be very competitive out there and I'd want to judge a breeder based on the quality of their cats rather than the views of their competition, if that makes sense? If anyone does have any suggestions for me I'd be forever grateful


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Banzai said:


> One kitten also looked like he might be a bit ill. Much smaller than the others, sneezed a few times while I was there, and had what looked like runny eyes - although maybe this was because they'd recently had their vaccinations?





Banzai said:


> The breeder's adults are all outside in pens, both male and female. None of the cats or kittens seemed especially pleased to see her, either, with quite a few shying away from contact.


I think this tells you everything you need to know, especially that *all* their adults are outside, and none of them seemed to want to see the breeder.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Banzai said:


> I've attempted to gain advice/recommendations, but it seems to be very competitive out there and I'd want to judge a breeder based on the quality of their cats rather than the views of their competition, if that makes sense? If anyone does have any suggestions for me I'd be forever grateful


Ultimately you have to make your own choice based on what you see at a breeders, and it strikes me you have a good idea of what you should see - friendly healthy kittens, living in a home environment, at a breeder who doesn't keep all or most of her female cats out in runs. Of course you want to know they will be registered, and with Ragdolls you need to satisfy yourself they are doing what they can to reduce the incidence of HCM.


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

As others have said it is very unlikely these will grow up to be cuddly confident cats. Your description of the kittens sounds rather like feral moggy kittens I have found at that age and I have tried to tame. Most grew up to be wary of humans though happy enough to be farm / stable cats. A couple have turned into cuddle pusses but still nervous in unfamiliar situations. If you are paying good money for a specific breed then I would avoid the kittens you saw.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Wouldn't have thought Ragdolls would be hard to find, they're a very common breed.

Have you visited shows (TICA & GCCF should have them listed online) to meet breeders?


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

In contrast when I got my first pedigree, as soon as I sat down The older sister of the kitten I was visiting plonked her self on my lap, was purring away. I made my mind up before seeing the kitten after meeting her. The majority of the cats come to inspect you, although there are one or two who would rather stare at you. The breeder does have her entire boys in stud pens but with a couple of neuter girls who chose to live down there, but when you go down to the pens the boys and neuteres come to see you.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Your post has made me sad to the point of shedding tears, those poor little unloved kittens and cats!
Have a look here
http://www.carameldreams.co.uk/
This breeder used to post on here a lot and talked a lot about socialising her kittens as part of her household. I personally know two people who have had kittens from her....one has been back for a second helping so to speak, and both are delighted with the characters of their kittens.


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Just for the record - any cat that comes in to this house would go to the vet asap, and before meeting the others. I can't think of any reason to wait 4 weeks. It would of course probably invalidate any claim against the previous owner if you were not able to get a vet's opinion for a month after taking the kittens home. Run.


----------



## Banzai (Jan 13, 2017)

Jonescat said:


> It would of course probably invalidate any claim against the previous owner if you were not able to get a vet's opinion for a month after taking the kittens home. Run.


Indeed, I am running as fast and as far as I can from this breeder. That does seem to be the only reason I can think of for suggesting no vet visits for a month - after all, how could that possibly be in the cat's best interest?

I think after spending six months convinced I had found an ethical breeder, I was too involved to see what was in front of my eyes, and too eager to give the benefit of the doubt - but now in hindsight I'm pretty horrified about what I saw.

I'll be restarting the search (thanks Paddypaws for the recommendation) and I'm going to see what can be done about making sure that breeder isn't allowed to continue with neglect.

Thanks all for the support.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Banzai I wish you the best of luck! I know you have done your research and will ask all the right questions of the breeder about tests/genetics etc. I have no personal experience of buying pedigree cats but can only re-iterate that the two people I know who have bought from her have given nothing but praise for the breeder and are over the moon with their cats.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Banzai said:


> Finally,I asked whether it would be best, when the time came, to take the kittens home via the vet to get it all over and done with, and the breeder recommended I wait four weeks after bringing them home before taking them to the vet. Is this normal?!?


Was this for neutering or in general?


----------



## Banzai (Jan 13, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Was this for neutering or in general?


It was in general - the standard vet check-up you do when you get a new pet. All the cats I've had in my life have gone to the vet within 48hrs for a once-over, as recommended by breeders and vet... I can't think of a sensible reason why I'd be told specifically not to go?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
I strongly agree with the 48-hrs-if-not-sooner rule for any new pet, & also with sequestering the newbie in a room of their own, with their own food & water bowls, their very own litter box, & any other species-specific or individual needs.
.
as pointed out by others, any complaint about a congenital issue or an infectious illness will be difficult, the longer U wait before having a thoro general-wellness exam of the new family-member by a vet.
.
my "new" cats spend an average of 2 to 3 weeks solo in their own room, with swapped washcloths or other small fabric items wiped on the resident pet/s & ppl, & another wiped on the new arrival.
I wait 2 to 5 days to bring a handtowel or other scent-sample out from the newbie's room to lie in a neutral space in the shared part of the house, so the resident pets can approach it & sniff.
These virtual introductions avoid bloodshed or bad impressions while letting both sides safely learn more about the other beasts in the house.
.
put scent-samples AWAY from food or water bowls, litter boxes, fave resting spots, etc.
"in the middle of the floor" is generally a nice neutral location to lay down a cloth U've swiped over a pet or person from Outside.

.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
BTW, just for comparison's sake, kittens' critical window for socialization both opens & ENDS much-earlier than that of puppies:
kittens socialization window only runs from Wks 2 to 7, while a pup's begins at 5-WO & doesn't shut until 12 to 14-wks age.
.
during these periods, young animals are readily introduced to other species [humans, kits to dogs, pups to cats, both to horses, chickens, goats, etc - any non-conspecific they are expected to encounter & tolerate / live near].
.
Also, sheer persistence helps kittens become & REMAIN more sociable & tolerant for life, vis-a-vis other cats:
if kittens *stay* with their dam, littermates, & other relatives [especially Mom-cat's sisters, aunties to the litter], or even with bonded non-relatives, UNTIL the litter is 12-WO... those kittens will be more cat-social & cat-tolerant than kittens reared & sent away with new owners between age 8-WO / 56-days & 10-WO / 70-days age.
And --- this happy effect will last their hopefully 2-decade long lives, too. 
.
when my sire bred Siamese in my childhood, none of our kittens left home before 12-wks age, in part b/c they were less vulnerable to nasty infectious diseases, such as feline distemper, but also to instill more tolerance, give & take, & flexibility on turf issues / territoriality.
Our queens shared litters to a ridiculous degree, we had to mark the newborns - all of them white & identical - to differentiate them & track whose kit was which mum's, b/c within 48-hrs they'd be suckling one another's, & without ID we'd never have known which cat actually gave birth to what kittens.
.
Introducing a 2nd cat or a new cat or kitten to an only cat is infinitely easier, even if they've lived as only cats for years, if they stayed with mum & sibs for 3-mos. 
.
.
.
.
.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

"my "new" cats spend an average of 2 to 3 weeks solo in their own room"

If I had done that with Basil he would have been deeply, deeply unhappy. As it is, 2 weeks after I got him, he is a well-integrated member of the household. I don't have to keep him away from Eadlin, Tia adores him and they play, Max & Benny don't mind him. I do have a nice warm bed where at present he can't get and Max, Benny & Eadlin retreat there if they want to be away from him.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
my newbies haven't suffered in lonely perdition, LOL - they often got more one-to-one time than the established resident/s!

I just took whatever time it seemed was needed, so that no bent whiskers or kinked tails resulted when the newbie met their feline [or canine, or human] housemates 'in the flesh'.
Some took longer, some shorter, but the thing i worked to avoid was anything more than a few mild hisses or grumbles on their 1st in-person meeting, & other than a half-hearted chase once or twice, that"s all i ever had.
"Boring introductions" IMO are good. 
.
.
.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> "Boring introductions" IMO are good.
> .


Depends on the cats, I've never done slow intros and not had any problems. Newcomers are accepted instantly, no hisding or grumbling.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, spotty cats:

... I've never done slow intros and not had any problems. *Newcomers are accepted instantly*, no hiding or grumbling.

/QUOTE
.
.
wow! - That's amazing, it's very unusual.
I've had just 1 cat who was "instantly accepting", even in strange surroundings, but that was of *humans - *not other cats. I took him along to an "Introduction to Pets" program i hosted at a senior center; there were 2 parrots, a dwarf bunny, a Guinea pig, a cockatiel, a dog, & my 7-MO tabby-patched nM.
He astonished me by calmly & curiously investigating the room, then *greeted every new arrival *at the door, his tail politely elevated & chirping hello, & walked them into the room; U'd swear he'd been a maitre'D in a former lifetime, reincarnated as a cat with white spats & bib.
I was so stunned, LOL, i spent more time watching his completely competent behavior than i did talking to my guests. :Hilarious Luckily, when the new arrivals stopped trickling in, he went off-duty & found someone to provide a lap for him to purr on, & my brain reconnected to my vocal cords. 
.
.
.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, spotty cats:
> 
> ... I've never done slow intros and not had any problems. *Newcomers are accepted instantly*, no hiding or grumbling.
> 
> ...


It's not that unusual. Basil wasn't accepted instantly, but it was only a day or so before I would have left him with any of them except Eadlin, and less than a week before I left him without a door shut between the two of them. I never shut the doors when I was in and awake.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
OK - let me put it this way, for clarity:
nowhere in my reading, nor at any time IME, have i heard of / read of, or met in person *any cat* who'd accept the presence of a strange cat in her or his space, WITHOUT a single hiss, snarl, hard stare - plus either a retreat to a higher, presumably-safer location, within that room, or complete avoidance & going OUT of that room, or - worst case - either rushing at the other cat to fight or at minimum _*swat*_ her or him, or stalking the newcomer to the resident's turf, & in either case [fight / physical intimidation or stalking], requiring intervention by the human/s on scene.
As in, ever. 
.
I hope that sums it up so that anyone can understand what i'm explaining, & again, i say - in my reading, conversations with literally hundreds of cat-owners, & in my direct experience with multiple cats of my own, plus all my clients' cats over 3 decades - or their households' cats, as some were roommates', relatives', etc, but all lived with the client in Q - _NONE were_ that tolerant of a brand-new strange feline, in their familiar home space.
Not in my virtual experience [reading - including cat-behavior specialists' texts & case memoirs; plus conversations, on-line, in person, by phone, ___ ], & not IRL. *Ever*.
.
Cats *outside* their homes can be more tolerant / accepting, or ignore intruders - in the neighborhood, even in their own gardens - but INSIDE their homes, to the best of my knowledge & / or experience, they're not.
.
so yeah, in my professional experience AND in my personal experience AND to my knowledge via books, articles, blogs, feline behavior texts, memoirs, etc - "instant tolerance" let alone "instant friendliness" is exceedingly rare.
If it's otherwise in the UK, there should be at least one book, feline-behavior text, memoir, long-term blog of a feline specialist, or another source that will include some of these "immediate tolerance" events, & i'd love to read it. Could someone post a link, please?
.
thanks in advance,
- terry 
.
.
.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@leashedForLife - IME it is rare in the UK too. What you describe is typical for most cats when meeting new cats in their home.

Some of my friends who have always had multi cat households of pedigree cats (e.g. Siamese, Ragdolls, Persians, BSH, Maine Coons) it seems to be the case that cats of the same breed will often accept newcomers more readily. After all, the cats have probably been selectively bred to be easy-going in character and this tolerance may well extend to other cats in their home, not just to humans.

But with randomly bred moggies, (some of whom will inevitably have been late-neutered with all the implications that entails) - it is rare to hear of them willingly accepting newcomers in their home and slow introductions are, in my experience, the *only *way one stands a real chance of a successful integration. We always advise our adopters at the Shelter to make slow introductions when they already have other cat(s). It is wise advice IMO.


----------

