# Returning deposits



## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

I took a deposit for two kittens, having knocked off £50 as they were having two when asked their age I told them they were ABOUT 12 weeks, I agreed to hold the kittens for two weeks then get them up to Surrey for an extra £100, I am in South Wales, they asked me their age again and I said they were around 6 months! ( I am used to clicking the 3-6 months button) understandably they questioned what age they actually were, I apologized and reassured them that they were not 6 months and sent them a link to an advert which showed the date I had posted it and that the kittens were in fact 14 weeks straight away ( hence I said ABOUT 12 weeks initially) they want their deposit back, where :confused5: do I stand?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

To save yourself a whole lot of hassle I just advise giving it back.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> To save yourself a whole lot of hassle I just advise giving it back.


Me to, especially has it does'nt sound like they have even been to see the kittens.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

TBH, if I were buying a kitten from a breeder and asked the age, I would expect to be told their actual age.
'About 6 months', for 14 week old kittens wouldnt cut it for me - if I am putting a deposit down on kittens, and then paying an extra £100, on top of the price of the kittens, I would be expecting the breeder to be a_ lot_ more specific.
Sorry - if i were you I would just refund the deposit.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I would most certainly return the deposit. With the greatest respect, I can't think of a single why not to return it.


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

I am not a breeder, I asked for a deposit because with some of the other kittens I got really messed about, one person sent me a bank draft for 2000 euros! Told me to take the money out for the kittens and send the rest to spain! I sent him photos of me putting the cheque on the fire and burning it, I agreed to let them have the kittens because they said they had booked them into the vets etc, two weeks have passed NOW they have told me they really wanted 'little kittens' I have an email acknowledging I told them the kittens were over 12 weeks ( it was when I checked I realized they were 14 weeks) before they sent the deposit.


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

Having been messed about meant that I lost opportunity's to let the kittens go to what I am sure would have been really good home's, and no I did not keep the phone numbers of the other people who contacted me wanting them, I rather hoped that asking them to give me a deposit would have meant they were sure they wanted them and to be honest I the extra £100 they offered for me to keep them for two weeks then take them to Surrey wouldn't have covered the fuel BUT they sounded nice, that they had been looking for months for a cream kitten, had booked it into the vets etc so I agreed


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Bit confused - you're not a breeder? Where are the kittens that you are selling actually coming from?

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to return their deposit and save yourself the aggravation and worry over kittens going to owners who obviously aren't quite sure WHAT they want?


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I totally understand where you are coming from.
I got my smallest 2 from someone who bred her cat, but it isnt a breeder. When I first contacted her she told me thier date of birth and exactly how old they were.
If i then asked her again how old they were (2 weeks later?) and she told me they were about 6 months old, I would have pulled out too!
With kittens there is a lot of difference between 12 weeks and 6 months!
Just to illustrate:

Willow at 11 weeks









Willow last week (22 weeks - not quite 6 months)









She is still a kitten, but compared to when I first got her to now, there is a huge difference - so you telling someone that wants a little kitten, that your kittens are about 6 months, can _make _a huge difference.

I am not being 'for' or 'against' either your or the prospective buyers - just giving my view on why they _may_ have pulled out


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Put it down to experience and make sure you get the age right next time. It is very annoying when people pull out but it does sound as if you have frightened them off. Perhaps next time you would be better to use a website where you have to type in the details rather than ticking boxes (though I don't know the website you have used, I haven't seen a tick boxes one)

If you own the mother of these kittens then you are the breeder.

Liz


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

The kitten have come from my pedigree Maine Coon, I am thinking of breeding her, she is an indoor cat, she got caught whilst friends of mine were looking after my house and accidentally let her get out, this situation has raised important questions for me, I will return their deposit like you've said its not worth the hassle, I will also not take deposits again I don't like the idea BUT I do understand why people ask for them when so many people mess about! I thought of it as a way to make people think about if they really wanted them or not! So from what I have read up am I correct in thinking that, if a seller is prepared to provide kittens and that they are as as stated ie age colour sex, that the buyer then backs out a deposit may be kept?


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## Babette (Jul 3, 2008)

akimbo said:


> I am not a breeder, I asked for a deposit because with some of the other kittens I got really messed about, one person sent me a bank draft for 2000 euros! Told me to take the money out for the kittens and send the rest to spain! I sent him photos of me putting the cheque on the fire and burning it, I agreed to let them have the kittens because they said they had booked them into the vets etc, two weeks have passed NOW they have told me they really wanted 'little kittens' I have an email acknowledging I told them the kittens were over 12 weeks ( it was when I checked I realized they were 14 weeks) before they sent the deposit.


You are a breeder as you sell kittens of your own.

The ones in Spain you ought to keep far away from. They are intressed in the money you send back for acheck too much not in the kittens. To me they ask the name of the kitten. It is always to be seen on my homepage!!!! Swinlers.

In the reacent history give the fee back. It will give you less trouble.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Being 'messed about' is one of the joys of being a breeder. There's a huge difference though between being a breeder and being someone who sells kittens. Taking deposits from people you've never met is not a good idea if you care about where those kittens are going. Ask yourself why someone would seriously pay £100 for you to deliver to non-pedigree kittens which only exist because your cat was let out accidentally. It makes no sense at all.


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

I have learnt some very valuable lessons, I will not sell kittens without people coming to see them, ( a very switched on friend of mine was going to hand them over on the strict instructions that all seemed well) I will not hold kittens with or without a deposit, I have and will refuse to allow people to take a kitten if I am unsure ( how can you be sure !?) they they are prepared to care for the cat properly, I have taken back a kitten that I gave away to one couple who in my opinion were not caring for her properly, this agreement I had in writing, that she was to be cared for properly, ie jabs, food, stress free environment, they had her for two days then left her shut in with a dog for 48 hrs!! They then walked into my home whilst I had literally popped out out and took her back! The police said that because they believed the kitten to be theirs they had the right to do that! Unbelievable! I now alway lock my door popping or not! The list of upsets is rather long!!
My ideal would be to contract the kittens with regard to their care, it is irrelevant to me that they are not pedigree' s, check up on them a number of times, unannounced. Hummm not sure I am cut out as a breeder to much worry!


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## Wendy1969 (Jun 4, 2010)

Reading through this - I'm sorry but it all seems a bit weird? You go out and leave your door open? Where do you live? The 1950s? Keeping in mind the fact that your girl (who is not on the Active Register? - is her original breeder aware of what has happened?) has already got out and got pregnant once, I would consider leaving my door unlocked a bit of a risk? Whilst I appreciate cats have not yet managed to evolve a thumb and you could reasonably expect them not to open the door themselves - someone still managed to walk into your house and could have let her out again!

"The kitten have come from my pedigree Maine Coon, I am thinking of breeding her, she is an indoor cat, she got caught whilst friends of mine were looking after my house and accidentally let her get out, this situation has raised important questions for me"

Erm... news flash - you have already bred her, presumably without consent?


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

I agree with the others. Give the deposit back. We all make mistakes, the best thing we can do is to acknowledge it, appologize and try not to repeat it.


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

Wendy1969 said:


> Reading through this - I'm sorry but it all seems a bit weird? You go out and leave your door open? Where do you live? The 1950s? Keeping in mind the fact that your girl (who is not on the Active Register? - is her original breeder aware of what has happened?) has already got out and got pregnant once, I would consider leaving my door unlocked a bit of a risk? Whilst I appreciate cats have not yet managed to evolve a thumb and you could reasonably expect them not to open the door themselves - someone still managed to walk into your house and could have let her out again!
> 
> "The kitten have come from my pedigree Maine Coon, I am thinking of breeding her, she is an indoor cat, she got caught whilst friends of mine were looking after my house and accidentally let her get out, this situation has raised important questions for me"
> 
> Erm... news flash - you have already bred her, presumably without consent?


Wendy, Weird or not thats how it is. Yes I leave my door open I live in a tiny Welsh village ( you can hear the curtains clang believe me! Hence I found out exactly who took the other kitten the only details I didn't get on that one were the color of the girl who took the kittens underwear! ) Yes her original breeder knows what has happened she was sympathetic as she is aware of the lengths I go to, to keep her in, she is now four years old and had not got out before, no she is not on the active register as I said 'I am thinking of breeding her,' I am aware cats have not developed a thumb, my post are looking for assistance and inviting chat about some of the experiences I have have that have really shocked me not an invitation for your sarcasm.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

My God, you're a funny lot in Wales. Your kittens have underwear?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

ah dear, is she a full pedigree registered active maine coon and has she been HCM tested negative? 'thinking' about breeding, should be done before buying the cat, planning needsto be done lines looked into faults looked at.
give them the deposit back and dont make a fuss about it, they are half moggies so im shocked they cant go to a rescue instead of buying from wales in surrey??


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

akimbo said:


> Wendy, Weird or not thats how it is. Yes I leave my door open I live in a tiny Welsh village ( you can hear the curtains clang believe me! Hence I found out exactly who took the other kitten the only details I didn't get on that one were the color of the girl who took the kittens underwear! ) Yes her original breeder knows what has happened she was sympathetic as she is aware of the lengths I go to, to keep her in, she is now four years old and had not got out before, no she is not on the active register as I said 'I am thinking of breeding her,' I am aware cats have not developed a thumb, my post are looking for assistance and inviting chat about some of the experiences I have have that have really shocked me not an invitation for your sarcasm.


oh my good lord 4 years old no health tests and you have let her call for 4 years??? Im surprised she hasnt been seriously ill and hasnt had pyo, poor thing just neuter her


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## Wendy1969 (Jun 4, 2010)

akimbo said:


> Wendy, Weird or not thats how it is. Yes I leave my door open I live in a tiny Welsh village ( you can hear the curtains clang believe me! Hence I found out exactly who took the other kitten the only details I didn't get on that one were the color of the girl who took the kittens underwear! ) Yes her original breeder knows what has happened she was sympathetic as she is aware of the lengths I go to, to keep her in, she is now four years old and had not got out before, no she is not on the active register as I said 'I am thinking of breeding her,' I am aware cats have not developed a thumb, my post are looking for assistance and inviting chat about some of the experiences I have have that have really shocked me not an invitation for your sarcasm.


Well I'm sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic but I think youre being unrealistic. Why do people think it would be "nice" to have a litter of kittens? Good breeders will have the help and backing of a mentor, spend years researching their lines, adding in compatible pedigrees, health testing their lines, pour blood, sweat and tears into it, don't make anything even resembling a profit, attend shows and show regularly, take an interest in the BACs, and have a good general knowledge of the Breed Standard. Otherwise how do you know if your cat is worth breeding? As others have already said you've been lucky she hasn't had a pyo. I apologise again but people breeding their cats willy-nilly is why shelters and charities are full to the brim with unwanted kittens.


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## Wendy1969 (Jun 4, 2010)

If you have a few minutes, please have a look at this link: URGENT APPEAL FUNDS NEED - Thorneywood Cat Rescue
It is a prime example of what happens when people are unprepared for all the ups and downs of breeding. Fortunately there has been a happy ending for this little lad. If you think I've been harsh or unfair then I really do apologise again but I feel very passionately that unregistered breeding/BYBs cause so many problems and have a huge knock-on effect for welfare, charities, rehoming centres etc. I have donated to this little boy and have encouraged others to do so too. 
If you really want to breed then please find yourself a good mentor, go along to a few shows, find out who is trustworthy and most of all good luck for the future. Maybe I will see you out showing one day?


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> oh my good lord 4 years old no health tests and you have let her call for 4 years??? Im surprised she hasnt been seriously ill and hasnt had pyo, poor thing just neuter her


Very presumptuous lot on here! Yes she's had her health checks ( and since her litter) an no I haven't just left her to call.:skep:


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

Wendy1969 said:


> If you have a few minutes, please have a look at this link: URGENT APPEAL FUNDS NEED - Thorneywood Cat Rescue
> It is a prime example of what happens when people are unprepared for all the ups and downs of breeding. Fortunately there has been a happy ending for this little lad. If you think I've been harsh or unfair then I really do apologise again but I feel very passionately that unregistered breeding/BYBs cause so many problems and have a huge knock-on effect for welfare, charities, rehoming centres etc. I have donated to this little boy and have encouraged others to do so too.
> If you really want to breed then please find yourself a good mentor, go along to a few shows, find out who is trustworthy and most of all good luck for the future. Maybe I will see you out showing one day?


Me to I am VERY active wihin rescue here and by God it needs it, South Wales is the pits with regard to puppy/animal farming, I am a security consultant by profession, I use my skills to collate evidence and press for prosecution, I also have also fostered. I am reliant on the experience and knowledge of other people, then I have the job of picking through that information and applying what I think is best for the animal, with the exception of Sasha my Coonie girl, my other animals are rescues, my latest is a lurcher I took time and patience to get his out of a house he had been shut in for 4 months ! Why didn't I use the RSPCA because they don't have a 'no kill policy' and worse they don't contact the local rescue centers to see if they can help before they put the animals down. I can't count the animals I have rescued! I am the only person I know who has rescue goldfish! The other skills I have I have also used, lets put it this way since I moved to my area there is no longer any badger bating! :biggrin:


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## Wendy1969 (Jun 4, 2010)

Then I'm sure you understand my frustration when I read that people are "thinking" about breeding. I was involved with a rescue the MCBS did last year for two MC breeding girls that were being kept in appalling conditions in Wales on a puppy farm :-(. Neither of these girls were on the active register and their original breeder was probably not aware that they had been passed to a Third Party. You sound like a nice, kind, caring person and any animal would be lucky to have a home with you. Good luck with your future plans and your future fostering


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

Wendy1969 said:


> Then I'm sure you understand my frustration when I read that people are "thinking" about breeding. I was involved with a rescue the MCBS did last year for two MC breeding girls that were being kept in appalling conditions in Wales on a puppy farm :-(. Neither of these girls were on the active register and their original breeder was probably not aware that they had been passed to a Third Party. You sound like a nice, kind, caring person and any animal would be lucky to have a home with you. Good luck with your future plans and your future fostering


Thanks for that and yes I do understand your frustration, I was devastated when she got caught,bless my pals they thought it would be nice for her to have a wander around the house for a change!All 7 kittens are still with me and will remain so until I find suitable homes, I am working hand in hand with ' proper rescue' here, took a while to sort through so called rescue lots of money making scams and other gruesome activities amongst them, nasty ole business.


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> My God, you're a funny lot in Wales. Your kittens have underwear?


Oi - not all of us


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## jay_bird (May 24, 2011)

akimbo said:


> Very presumptuous lot on here! Yes she's had her health checks ( and since her litter) an no I haven't just left her to call.:skep:


so what exactly DID you do with her for the first 4 years ?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

welshjet said:


> Oi - not all of us


.... have underwear?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

akimbo said:


> Very presumptuous lot on here! Yes she's had her health checks ( and since her litter) an no I haven't just left her to call.:skep:


I am just interested but have you had the gentic tests that are available for maine coons - i.e these (taken from fab cats - genetic tests are available) - that's wwhat we on here mean by health tests - not just a once over from the vet.

_Spinal muscular atrophy

A neurodegenerative disorder closely mimicking human spinal muscular atrophy has been discovered in a family of Maine Coon cats. The onset of clinical signs occurs at 15-17 weeks of age. Clinical signs include fine muscle tremors and fascilculations (rippling of muscles), with progressive muscular weakness starting in the hindlimbs. Cranial nerves and mentation are normal, as are spinal reflexes. Signs are progressive, although cats do seem to stabilize and can survive with an adequate quality of life if supported. Diagnostic studies including electromyography, nerve conduction studies, and nerve and muscle biopsies indicate a disorder of central neurogenic origin. The inheritance of this disorder in Maine Coon cats is autosomal recessive.

Information regarding this disease and the genetic test for the identification of carriers and affected animals is available at: http://medicine.ucsd.edu/vet_neuromuscular 
He Q et al. Inherited motor neuron disease in domestic cats: A model of spinal muscular atrophy. Pediatric Research 2005:57;324-330.

Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (*)

In 2005 the first genetic mutation (of Myosin Binding Protein C [MYBPC]) was discovered in a colony of Maine Coon cats, and the first genetic test for HCM developed. However, it should be noted that in human beings with HCM, there are over 120 different genetic mutations which can cause this disease. Since the gene test for HCM was launched, approximately one third of cats with echocardiographic signs of HCM that have tested by gene test have tested positive for the mutation. Of these, (as of September 2006) only Maine Coons and their progeny had tested positive. In addition, it has been found that there are many cats (including Maine Coons) diagnosed with HCM (on echocardiography) that are negative for the MYBPC mutation. These cats are thought to have an as yet undiscovered mutation of one or more of the other structural proteins within the heart.

See Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) in cats for more information about the condition and echocardiographic scanning

Meurs K M et al (2005) A cardiac myosin binding protein C mutation in the Maine Coon cat with familial hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Human Molecular Genetics 14, 3587-93
_

ALso I too would be interested in knowing how you didn't just let a cat call for 4 years without resorting to mating her - did you have her on Ovarid? And if so, how did she get pregnant?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Wendy1969 said:


> Why do people think it would be "nice" to have a litter of kittens? .


I think, if you really don't know how dangerous or expensive or stressful the process can be, it does sound like a nice thing to have happen. I know it's hard for anyone on here who is familiar with the negatives to step back for a moment, but I have to say I wasn't truly cognizant until I spent some time on this forum. Mind you, I never had a pet that didn't get spayed or neutered as soon as recommended and I never thought about deliberately going into breeding or hooking my dog up with the neighbor's dog before he got fixed or anything of the sort, because I know that there's just too many rescues out there.

But I will honestly confess that, when we found Jezebel and the vet said she might be pregnant, the thought of watching the process and having some kittens we helped deliver was daunting, yet exciting. Did we want a bunch more cats--or should I say "need"? No. Would we have kept them all if we couldn't find amazing homes? Yes. I think a lot of people think 1) kittens are adorable, this will be fun and well, what's happened has happened and 2) I've got lots of friends or family who would like a kitten I raised. This will work out fine. Again, I knew NOTHING about breeding a cat--I never needed to. So when the vet told me it was dangerous to spay her mid-pregnancy, I believed him, so if she was pregnant, well, we had taken her in and accepted responsibility for whatever happened. If it meant seeing her pregnancy through and the aftermath as well, so be it.

I immediately signed on here and found out so many things. I now know it's not dangerous to spay, so there's a biggie right there--I've also since come to doubt the expertise of vets on a lot of points, but that's another story :frown2:. And I now know that lots of things can go wrong. Sure pregnancy is natural, but I know from my history background that it's dangerous for women too--lots of women died in the past giving birth, so we could have lost her, lost kittens, had to have a c-section, all sorts of not cute fluffy adorable cuddly things to have happened.

So, I'm not condoning the attitude, but I do understand where it starts. As with so many things, education is key. It opens an entirely new perspective on how kittens get here and why one should think very very hard before embarking on breeding. That said, I only wish people would put as much thought into the process for themselves as responsible breeders do for their cats. But the way that people handle that is really quite the same thing, so it's not terribly confusing to me how they are so blase about their cat getting knocked up. Horrifying to me, yes , but not confusing.


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## libby333 (Jan 25, 2012)

A good idea would be to leave breeding to the breeders! Letting cats out to get pregnant from any old tom is disgusting! No wonder the people want their deposit back you dont even know when the babies were born.....that says a lot about you. Poor kittens I feel sorry for them!


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

Libby33
Its clear you haven't put the time in to read the entirety of the information prior to your posts.
1. I stated that I was 'thinking about breeding' which means I have been researching this and attempting to educating myself thoroughly on this matter before embarking as a breeder which would suggest that I am attempting to act responsibly. 
2. She was not let out to mate with 'any tom' explanation in earlier posts.
3. Yes I looked at her having an abortion but did not decide to do so for a number of reasons.
4. Yes I know when the kittens were born but made a mistake reason explained earlier in post.
5. Be very reassured all kittens are fine and I am in touch and I receive regular updates on each and every one of them.
6. Get your facts right prior to making your personal comments and judgements on folk. you come across as self-righteous and critical which is unnecessary a tad unpleasant and not appropriate, should you have done your research on this matter ie reading all of the posts which you quite clearly have not you may have saved yourself ill feeling.


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## akimbo (Nov 30, 2011)

I have now found the answers to my original question ie The law on returning deposits else where thank you for your time and efforts assisting me with this matter.


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