# Qualifying for Crufts at show where CCs not awarded



## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

If you haven't picked this up yet....

If your breed is one for which CCs are awarded but not at all Champ shows, if you go to a Champ show where they are not being given out you can qualify for Crufts if you achieve an appropriate placing (as per your breed's stud book band). 

This means it could be a lot cheaper if you just want to qualify. 

But, would you agree with me, if people chasing CCs stay away, the quality of those qualifying could be lower? Just suggesting.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

It could be.

But then again, in large breeds a heck of a lot of dogs who are worthy of CCs find it hard to get them because only two (and in some cases only one) dog can win a CC - and if you have a particularly good dog or bitch winning often, that makes it even harder.. So it doesn't necessarily follow that dogs who haven't yet won CCs are of a lower standard, and hence it doesn't necessarily follow that entrants at shows with no CCs on offer are not up to CC standard. They could be dogs of a high standard that haven't yet managed to qualify for Crufts for one reason or another.

And in theory, the judge should withold a place rather than place any dog who was not worthy of qualifying, so you could argue that whether or not those chasing CCs are there, any dog who qualifies is worthy of qualifying.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Well Jax qualified that way ha


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## adamantis (Mar 14, 2014)

As a slight OT/aside - has anyone ever known a judge to withhold a placing? I have heard of CCs not being awarded, but standard placings? (Just interested, not accusing judges of handing out places regardless etc! Just interested to know how many are willing to do it. I always thank judges for not withholding BOB from my neutered boy, because ether have every right to…)


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

adamantis said:


> As a slight OT/aside - has anyone ever known a judge to withhold a placing? I have heard of CCs not being awarded, but standard placings? (Just interested, not accusing judges of handing out places regardless etc! Just interested to know how many are willing to do it. I always thank judges for not withholding BOB from my neutered boy, because ether have every right to…)


Yes, I have heard of judges withholding placings. BUT just wanted to clarify your post - are you saying that judges should have not awarded BOB purely because your dog is neutered?

The fact that a dog has been neutered should be regarded as a deviation from the breed standard just as any other 'fault' is. If there are two dogs who are exactly the same match to the standard in the judge's view, but one has been neutered, this can be considered an additional deviation from the standard, and the other dog would be given the higher place.

On the other hand, if the neutered dog is the best match to the standard over all other dogs present an award cannot be withheld purely because the dog is neutered.

Sorry, I may have read your post wrong, but there is a common misconception that neutered dogs cannot be shown or get highly placed. Many neutered dogs gain their stud book number, and also win their classes (including BOB places) at Crufts. The KC is encouraging responsible dog ownership, and therefore would not want to penalise neutered dogs from being shown.

You may be interested to know that I spent some time clarifying the situation with the KC when writing my book. No judge should withhold an award from a neutered dog if otherwise that dog is the best match to the breed standard in the ring at that time.


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## adamantis (Mar 14, 2014)

[QUOTE="BessieDog said:


> Yes, I have heard of judges withholding placings. BUT just wanted to clarify your post - are you saying that judges should have not awarded BOB purely because your dog is neutered?
> ...
> You may be interested to know that I spent some time clarifying the situation with the KC when writing my book. No judge should withhold an award from a neutered dog if otherwise that dog is the best match to the breed standard in the ring at that time.


I think he deserves BOB - if he were at an actual Hound show (rather than a KC one) he would do extremely well I am told. And the standards are -supposed- to be the same…

However, whilst the KC might not mind neutered dogs being shown, it would be nice if some judges were told that! Our judge at Crufts felt him, no testicles, quick look at teeth, and that was it. Didn't go over him and (I know this because it is on video) didn't watch him move! The dog that took the class was anything but straight in the front, overweight, and bounced up trying to chew its lead when it was supposed to move. Go figure. (I was grateful for the booing from the small crowd when the placings were announced…).

At an Open show, the judge who awarded us BOB (we were the only ones in the class…) told me that she had been at a judging seminar (?) for whippets, and was criticised for placing a neutered dog that matched the breed standard to a tee above something that looked far more like an Italian Greyhound.

I am happy enough that a lack of testicles is marked as a fault. What I don't like is that some judges will instantly put a neutered dog to the bottom of the class, regardless of the faults of other animals. Surely it is better the not be ab;e to breed from a good dog than to encourage the breeding of a dog with conformation faults that can be passed on?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Really, many judges will put up what they consider to be the best example of the breed, on the day, the idea being that bitch owners will be attracted to that dog. The whole point is that, hopefully, the best specimens will be bred from.

If a dog has been castrated, then, to some judges, there is little point making him Best of Breed.

I used to judge and I have mixed feelings about this. I would never have put up an inferior dog, simply because he was entire, but faced with two good dogs, I would have placed the entire one first.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

adamantis said:


> I think he deserves BOB - if he were at an actual Hound show (rather than a KC one) he would do extremely well I am told. And the standards are -supposed- to be the same…
> 
> However, whilst the KC might not mind neutered dogs being shown, it would be nice if some judges were told that! Our judge at Crufts felt him, no testicles, quick look at teeth, and that was it. Didn't go over him and (I know this because it is on video) didn't watch him move! The dog that took the class was anything but straight in the front, overweight, and bounced up trying to chew its lead when it was supposed to move. Go figure. (I was grateful for the booing from the small crowd when the placings were announced…).
> 
> ...


I you feel that your dog has been penalised purely because of his lack of testicles then you should complain (remember, this needs to be done on the day). Particularly if you've got witnesses who agree with you. Whilst the original point of dog showing was to select the best specimens to breed from, nowadays this is no longer the case, and all judges should have got the message. However, judges, like many exhibitors, think they know it all, and don't listen to new messages from the KC.

Also, I take your point about the judge not going over the dog - that could be cause for complaint and I've certainly been in that position myself when the dog who won the previous class was obviously going to beat mine from the minute she walked in the ring (only a two dog class). The judge didn't even let me set up, and didn't go over her. But I didn't complain - just won't go under that judge again! BUT sometimes it's difficult to be able to judge the angulation of elbows and hips, and the overall bone structure unless you get your hands on a dog. What appears to be a poorer specimen might not be.

And again, a fault is a fault is a fault, and one judge may have a pet peeve towards a particular one, in the same way judges have a 'type' they look for. It's all about watching and getting to know which judges are worth going under - or saying blow it, and just going for the experience and a good day out!


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