# Will UK finally see Wolf & Bear reintroduction?



## noushka05

BBC News - Paul Lister plans to push ahead with Alladale wolves plan

and Pine Marten reintroduced back to England & Wales ...

Plans to help the pine marten recover in southern Britain

I really do hope so.:thumbsup:

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## sharloid

I don't really think having bears and wolves in an enclosed area can really be seen as reintroduction. If that man personally wants to do it with his own land and the public is in no danger then that's up to him.


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## Meezey

No different that the wild life reserves in Africa IMHO, and rather than the public being safe, I think it's better they are enclosed to protect THEM from the public  hopefully there will be a full introduction, I would love to see wild life back where it it belongs before humans decided to mess it all up 

I love love love pine martins


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## noushka05

sharloid said:


> I don't really think having bears and wolves in an enclosed area can really be seen as reintroduction. If that man personally wants to do it with his own land and the public is in no danger then that's up to him.


That's a fair point, i also have concerns about them being in an enclosure, even a huge one. Someone suggested using Geofencing, that way as soon as the leave Alladale rangers can capture & return them. This is what they will be using if Lynx reintroduction gets the go ahead

Wolves & bears are making a comeback in many European countries, most have welcomed them back with open arms. Its time for the UK to do the same imo.



Meezey said:


> No different that the wild life reserves in Africa IMHO, and rather than the public being safe, I think it's better they are enclosed to protect THEM from the public  hopefully there will be a full introduction, I would love to see wild life back where it it belongs before humans decided to mess it all up
> 
> I love love love pine martins


Agreed! wolves especially, have been demonised for centuries, yet they are shy & fearful of man. Man is a far greater danger not only to these apex predators, but to other humans.

' I love pine martens aswell, they are so charismatic . Sadly not everyone feels the same, Game keepers in Scotland are calling for this endangered animal to be 'controlled'. Makes me so angry how selfish some people are.


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## Sled dog hotel

noushka05 said:


> BBC News - Paul Lister plans to push ahead with Alladale wolves plan
> 
> and Pine Marten reintroduced back to England & Wales ...
> 
> Plans to help the pine marten recover in southern Britain
> 
> I really do hope so.:thumbsup:


If the estates 23,000 acres and done correctly I don't see why it couldn't work. Jim and Jamie Dutcher did something similar to study wolves for 6 years in the saw tooth moutains which was I think about 25 acres. Later the wolves were moved to northern Idaho under the care and in conjuction with the Nez Perce Indians. Remember watching it on National Geo.

Sawtooth Pack Stories - Living With Wolves

Be nice to see other wild life introduced too.


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## noushka05

Sled dog hotel said:


> If the estates 23,000 acres and done correctly I don't see why it couldn't work. Jim and Jamie Dutcher did something similar to study wolves for 6 years in the saw tooth moutains which was I think about 25 acres. Later the wolves were moved to northern Idaho under the care and in conjuction with the Nez Perce Indians. Remember watching it on National Geo.
> 
> Sawtooth Pack Stories - Living With Wolves
> 
> Be nice to see other wild life introduced too.


Oh I saw that brilliant documentary about the Dutchers SDH, I thought it amazing how the pack accepted those wolf pups, and the relationships between pack members & the Dutchers. Love wolves so much, they are special. I do hope Paul Lister finds a way to overcome the hurdles, Alladale is the ideal place to bring back these creatures.

Wouldn't it be amazing to have some of our missing fauna back:thumbsup:

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## lostbear

I'm okay with wolves and pine martins - they are shy elusive creatures that just get on with life and mind their own business. However I am frightened of bears as there won't be enough large prey animals of them and I would think they will turn to horses, cattle, sheep and - me, probably. (I am a juicy little carbohydrate rich morsel, and am probably tooth-achingly sweet because of all the Fry's chocolate creams I consume.)


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## cinnamontoast

And what about the right to roam in Scotland? Has that even been considered? People can go where they like so may well encounter large omnivores such as bear. IMO, there is not enough wilderness to feasibly re-introduce a very big species such as bears. What will they eat? 

Pine martens are all very well, but will be in direct competition with the country's largest carnivore ie badgers. I fail to see how this is a good idea. They are vicious little so and sos, too! I'd hate to see them encounter your family bunny/guinea!


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## noushka05

lostbear said:


> I'm okay with wolves and pine martins - they are shy elusive creatures that just get on with life and mind their own business. However I am frightened of bears as there won't be enough large prey animals of them and I would think they will turn to horses, cattle, sheep and - me, probably. (I am a juicy little carbohydrate rich morsel, and am probably tooth-achingly sweet because of all the Fry's chocolate creams I consume.)


Although bears are carnivorous the bulk of their diet is made up of plant material, they also scavenge wolf leftovers, so it makes perfect sense to reintroduce these two species side by side. Studies of European brown bears found they rarely attack livestock



cinnamontoast said:


> And what about the right to roam in Scotland? Has that even been considered? People can go where they like so may well encounter large omnivores such as bear. IMO, there is not enough wilderness to feasibly re-introduce a very big species such as bears. What will they eat?
> 
> Pine martens are all very well, but will be in direct competition with the country's largest carnivore ie badgers. I fail to see how this is a good idea. They are vicious little so and sos, too! I'd hate to see them encounter your family bunny/guinea!


The right to roam could well be a stumbling block, but many wildlife lovers would love to be able to roam in the hope of glimpsing one of these magnificent species. Indeed, many tourists visit Canada, Alaska etc for that very reason. As I said above, the bulk of a bears diet is vegetation & berries. The wolf's natural prey is deer, there are too many deer, wolves would regulate the deer population & restore an impoverished eco system into a healthy one.

Creatures competing for survival is what nature is all about. Lots of animals bite - would kill the family bunny/guinea lol. Its the humans responsibility to keep their pets safe & secure. We British expect other nations to live alongside dangerous wild animals & small predators, but don't want them in our own back yard. We must be one of the most zoophobic countries there is

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## crazydogs

If this bloke wants to contain these bears and wolves in some sort of wildlife park fair enough. 
But as i live in Sutherland i don't want bears and wolves roaming around, i don't want to fear letting my dogs into the garden or when out on a walk in the wood fearing we will come across a bear. 

I don't care if they eat berries ect it is not unknown for them to attack humans or other animals
It's okay for everybody else to say yes it's a great idea we love it,
but i bet the vast majority of you don't live in the highlands of scotland and wouldn't have to encounter these animals on a daily basis.

If i wanted to live close to bears ect i would move to another country as much as i think they are lovely i don't want to live near them.


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## Howl

I just hope if it goes ahead that it's managed well. So many concerns come from keeping the health and disease of these animals under control. Bears appear to be seen as a pest in some areas. I am glad people like him are keeping areas unspoilt and have an interest in preserving/ reintroducing native species. My worry would be if short cuts were taken in animal management in the future. I wonder if this is related to keeping the deer populations in check.


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## cinnamontoast

The right to roam will prevent this person from fencing off large areas. I do not see the massive change in law to allow this, nor do I think it's a great idea to reintroduce a large and frankly dangerous animal: there just isn't the room and the British public is not equipped to cope with bears! Sorry, I think it's a frankly ridiculous idea. As crazydogs says, if you want to see bears, go live where they are, don't imagine it will be a wondrous thing when your dog gets killed, plus if you aren't anywhere near it, I don't think you can promote it because you won't have to have them raiding your bins and killing your pets. Given that we don't have them now, I think it would be unfair on the human population to have a large dangerous creature suddenly introduced when they weren't there originally.


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## lostbear

Howl said:


> I just hope if it goes ahead that it's managed well. So many concerns come from keeping the health and disease of these animals under control. Bears appear to be seen as a pest in some areas. I am glad people like him are keeping areas unspoilt and have an interest in preserving/ reintroducing native species. My worry would be if short cuts were taken in animal management in the future.* I wonder if this is related to keeping the deer populations in check.*


That's an interesting thought.

Agree with your others comments, also.


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## lostbear

Okay - all of what I'm going to say next is speculation, but . . .

When wolves and bears roamed wild in Britain, there were huge deciduous forested areas where they could live and predate. These forests teemed with deer and boar which provided a food source for them. I don't know what the size of an average wolf pack would have been - form memory I think it was anywhere between five and twenty animals. Wolves do regulate their own numbers according the the available food, so there is a degree of built-in safety there. Without competition from another big predator i.e. bears, I assume the packs would tend towards the larger end of the scale. If bears were introduced, the competition would keep packs smaller, I expect, but bears are HUGE, and they are phenomenally aggressive and fear nothing. They need enormous territories to sustain them. The nuts and berries available in broadleaf forests aren't so common in the swathes of pines we see now. They would very soon become pushed into human contact because we do not have the forests that still exist in Europe, and much of our present forestland is possibly unsuitable - plus they will go for the easiest food source. And it might start off with scavenging through skips, but it would progress to domestic animals, and children and adults.

An animal can only be safely and usefully re-introduced if the appropriate habitat is available for it, and we don't have that - certainly not for bears, possibly not for wolves. There is still a lot of suitable forest in mainland Europe, and it isn't close to towns and cities. Here, there is comparatively little - we live on top of each other to start with and more and more land is being taken ip with development. In theory, I would love to see them back - in practice, I think it would be reckless in the extreme.


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## Emma32

I'm inclined to agree with lostbear above.
I would _love_ to see wolves reintroduced to Britain. They are one of my favourite creatures. I'm actually heading to Canada soon in the hope of seeing them wild.
However we are limited with our space here. We've taken away so much of our natural forest and woodland that I don't think there is enough left to sustain populations of wolves, and especially not bears.

Lostbear, for pack sizes they can be between 2 and 20+ wolves, though the average tends to be 6-7.


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## lostbear

Emma32 said:


> I'm inclined to agree with lostbear above.
> I would _love_ to see wolves reintroduced to Britain. They are one of my favourite creatures. I'm actually heading to Canada soon in the hope of seeing them wild.
> However we are limited with our space here. We've taken away so much of our natural forest and woodland that I don't think there is enough left to sustain populations of wolves, and especially not bears.
> 
> *Lostbear, for pack sizes they can be between 2 and 20+ wolves, though the average tends to be 6-7.*


Thank you - I couldn't remember and was too lazy to google it


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## Emma32

lostbear said:


> Thank you - I couldn't remember and was too lazy to google it


No worries! I did whole term project on them a while back and all the info seems to have stuck!


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## lostbear

Emma32 said:


> No worries! I did whole term project on them a while back and all the info seems to have stuck!


You youngsters with your velcro brains! Mine is like a well-oiled seal - stuff just slithers over the surface and can't find a purchase. At the top of my spine I suspect I have a compost heap of all sorts of useful facts and figures that have failed to get a grip, slithered down my cerebellum, and just died. RIP little facts and figures. I will miss you - or would if I could remember what you were about.


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## DoodlesRule

Nice in theory but in practice I think its pretty idiotic - we are a tiny island over populated with people we can't even live alongside foxes and badgers.

When did wolves and bears last roam these lands? Personally I have no idea but would bet there were a lot less people around and lots more land/forrest free for them to have lived a natural life


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## noushka05

I'm really pleased this has got a bit of a debate going on 'rewilding'

Britain is the largest country in Europe & almost the whole world which no longer possesses any of its big carnivores and it has also lost more of its large native herbivores than any other European country except Ireland. We also seem to be the most reluctant of any European nation to begin reintroducing our missing species. Apparently this is probably due to the fact that we have one of the highest concentrations of land ownership in the world & landowners tend to be hostile to wildlife which they don't class as game. We do have vast areas with low human population where rewilding could take place - our uplands. Here we farm sheep, very unproductively or the land is managed for grouse. The land is not only ovely managed by landowners but by conservation organisations aswell, this is one of the greatest failings of British conservation orgs. And why, despite being sparsely populated bio diversity is poorer in our uplands than it is in our more populous lowlands. Infact many people will see more biodiversity in their own back gardens than they will in the Peak district NP for example. Our uplands are nothing more than desolate eco wastelands. If they were allowed to reforest, it could be all so different.



crazydogs said:


> If this bloke wants to contain these bears and wolves in some sort of wildlife park fair enough.
> But as i live in Sutherland i don't want bears and wolves roaming around, i don't want to fear letting my dogs into the garden or when out on a walk in the wood fearing we will come across a bear.
> 
> I don't care if they eat berries ect it is not unknown for them to attack humans or other animals
> It's okay for everybody else to say yes it's a great idea we love it,
> but i bet the vast majority of you don't live in the highlands of scotland and wouldn't have to encounter these animals on a daily basis.
> 
> If i wanted to live close to bears ect i would move to another country as much as i think they are lovely i don't want to live near them.


Its not just Paul Lister wanting to bring back our missing wildlife. Trees for life are restoring the Caledonian forest with the ultimate goal of reintroducing, beavers,lynx..wolves etc. http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/tfl.visi.html

If it was possible I would move to the highlands just to be closer & would feel privileged if i was to glimpse one of these beautiful creatures living wild & free, even if I never saw them, just knowing they were back out there somewhere would be magical to me.

and I'm certain there are individuals living in countries where these animals live now or where they are making a comeback who wish they were extirpated - just incase. But there are far greater dangers than wildlife, we have make space for wildlife or we will lose species, every country should be doing their bit - even us.



Howl said:


> I just hope if it goes ahead that it's managed well. So many concerns come from keeping the health and disease of these animals under control. Bears appear to be seen as a pest in some areas. I am glad people like him are keeping areas unspoilt and have an interest in preserving/ reintroducing native species. My worry would be if short cuts were taken in animal management in the future. I wonder if this is related to keeping the deer populations in check.


Deer population control is a significant factor for brining back their native predators. Deer control is one of the main arguments for lynx reintroduction & its looking highly likely this will happen soon



cinnamontoast said:


> The right to roam will prevent this person from fencing off large areas. I do not see the massive change in law to allow this, nor do I think it's a great idea to reintroduce a large and frankly dangerous animal: there just isn't the room and the British public is not equipped to cope with bears! Sorry, I think it's a frankly ridiculous idea. As crazydogs says, if you want to see bears, go live where they are, don't imagine it will be a wondrous thing when your dog gets killed, plus if you aren't anywhere near it, I don't think you can promote it because you won't have to have them raiding your bins and killing your pets. Given that we don't have them now, I think it would be unfair on the human population to have a large dangerous creature suddenly introduced when they weren't there originally.


Geofencing wouldnt prevent people roaming, geofencing is what they are going use if lynx reintroduction gets the go ahead. Bears would be the most contentious reintroduction, I agree, but we need to get some perspective, take a look at these statistics from USA where there are 000's black & grizzly bears Grizzly Bay - Bear attack statistics Even if my dog was killed by a reintroduced species it would not change my mind, our lost native fauna belongs here , it has more right to be here than me or my dogs. Polls show that the majority of people in other European countries want their missing fauna back. A survey conducted in Scotland found even in rural areas there was slightly more favour than disfavour for wolf reintroduction. Even sheep farmers were split. Only the NFU of Scotland were fiercely opposed. Apparently this is suggested this is because the NFU tends to be dominated by large landowners with strongly conservative views, they don't represent the majority of farmers.



lostbear said:


> Okay - all of what I'm going to say next is speculation, but . . .
> 
> When wolves and bears roamed wild in Britain, there were huge deciduous forested areas where they could live and predate. These forests teemed with deer and boar which provided a food source for them. I don't know what the size of an average wolf pack would have been - form memory I think it was anywhere between five and twenty animals. Wolves do regulate their own numbers according the the available food, so there is a degree of built-in safety there. Without competition from another big predator i.e. bears, I assume the packs would tend towards the larger end of the scale. If bears were introduced, the competition would keep packs smaller, I expect, but bears are HUGE, and they are phenomenally aggressive and fear nothing. They need enormous territories to sustain them. The nuts and berries available in broadleaf forests aren't so common in the swathes of pines we see now. They would very soon become pushed into human contact because we do not have the forests that still exist in Europe, and much of our present forestland is possibly unsuitable - plus they will go for the easiest food source. And it might start off with scavenging through skips, but it would progress to domestic animals, and children and adults.
> 
> An animal can only be safely and usefully re-introduced if the appropriate habitat is available for it, and we don't have that - certainly not for bears, possibly not for wolves. There is still a lot of suitable forest in mainland Europe, and it isn't close to towns and cities. Here, there is comparatively little - we live on top of each other to start with and more and more land is being taken ip with development. In theory, I would love to see them back - in practice, I think it would be reckless in the extreme.


I thought exactly the same as you did, until I found out that we do have enough land in the Scottish highlands to support a viable population of wolves. Regarding bears, tbh I didn't even know they were being considered for reintroduction, but I imagine Paul Lister and his team of ecologists will have done their homework into the feasibility of reintroducing them back to Alladale.

Wolf & bear are not in direct competition for food, indeed bears benefit from the presence of wolves by scavenging leftover wolf kills, there is an over abundance of deer.



Emma32 said:


> I'm inclined to agree with lostbear above.
> I would _love_ to see wolves reintroduced to Britain. They are one of my favourite creatures. I'm actually heading to Canada soon in the hope of seeing them wild.
> However we are limited with our space here. We've taken away so much of our natural forest and woodland that I don't think there is enough left to sustain populations of wolves, and especially not bears.
> 
> Lostbear, for pack sizes they can be between 2 and 20+ wolves, though the average tends to be 6-7.


Wow lucky you, wolves are one of my favourites too, really hope you get to see them or at least hear them howling- magical. If youre interested in rewilding, I highly recommend the book feral by George Monbiot or check out Trees for life TfL Conservation Weeks - the work http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/tfl.visi.html



DoodlesRule said:


> Nice in theory but in practice I think its pretty idiotic - we are a tiny island over populated with people we can't even live alongside foxes and badgers.
> 
> When did wolves and bears last roam these lands? Personally I have no idea but would bet there were a lot less people around and lots more land/forrest free for them to have lived a natural life


The last wolf was killed in Scotland over 250yrs ago. But we have to change attitudes thats for sure, as you point out some are very intolerant even of small predators like fox & badger Its very sad many people are so of touch with nature but we do have enough wilderness now to reintroduce some of our missing fauna. The Cairngorms could support lynx and the Highlands could support around 250 wolves, enough to keep the population viable

Just think how much richer our countryside would be if we had these back in it >>

http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/tfl.visi.html

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## Jaysk

Saw a wonderful documentary on top predator re-introductions into the wild in several countries. Bear in Germany, a wild cat of some sort in Florida

They re-introduced wolves into Yellowstone (after much lobbying to stop it by surrounding farmers).

A study a few years later showed that they were well established and culling excessive deer numbers. The lower deer population allowed trees near rivers to re-generate. This allowed for more timber for beaver dams which slowed the flow of the river and provided large, deep pools which had been absent for many years. This allowed re-population by fish and other species that had become scarce since the beavers had moved out.

Re-introducing a native species can have far reaching consequences which are usually good for the ecosystem - often in unforeseen ways. Unfortunately it is often detrimental to human interests - which is typically why the original population was wiped out.

Ultimately ecosystems are essential to our own survival. Let's do it :smile5:


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## noushka05

Jaysk said:


> Saw a wonderful documentary on top predator re-introductions into the wild in several countries. Bear in Germany, a wild cat of some sort in Florida
> 
> They re-introduced wolves into Yellowstone (after much lobbying to stop it by surrounding farmers).
> 
> A study a few years later showed that they were well established and culling excessive deer numbers. The lower deer population allowed trees near rivers to re-generate. This allowed for more timber for beaver dams which slowed the flow of the river and provided large, deep pools which had been absent for many years. This allowed re-population by fish and other species that had become scarce since the beavers had moved out.
> 
> Re-introducing a native species can have far reaching consequences which are usually good for the ecosystem - often in unforeseen ways. Unfortunately it is often detrimental to human interests - which is typically why the original population was wiped out.
> 
> Ultimately ecosystems are essential to our own survival. Let's do it :smile5:


Great post!

Trophic cascades - how dynamic nature is when you bring back a species that sits at the top of the food chain. Wolves are ecosystem engineers, as are beavers, together they have transformed Yellowstone. Proof that nature does far better left to its own devices, all this 'management' is one of the reasons we have so little biodiversity left in this country.

Fascinating speech by George Monbiot on rewilding & trophic cascades, 3.24 into the vides he explains how wolf reintroduction transformed Yellowstones ecosystem

[youtube_browser]/8rZzHkpyPkc[/youtube_browser]


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