# Why do so many people want to breed?



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

As you may know I had a litter, OH's mistake that I didn't know til too late but why do people with lovely pets want to have a litter?

You don't make money, in fact it can cost you money. It's extremely hard work - constantly washing bedding, clearing up pee/poop and buying puppy pads. Endless rounds of feeding. Endless late nights and very early mornings. Vet trips to check mum and babies then vaccinations and annoying people that want to touch your pups, not understanding your reasons why they can't. Endless calls and visits by strangers, some who sound good but in the flesh don't even know how to greet a dog let alone raise a pup. Loads of paper work. Fifteen or so years of commitment in case things don't work out. The most awful heartache at letting them go and added to all that the possibilty of losing pups or even the mum!

If the pups are wanted for showing, from great show or working lines I can kind of understand because we need good quality dogs to continue to breed good dogs but I can't for the life of me understand breeding for any other reason. 

Perhaps some can severe ties and see their pups in future homes and be happy with that but even though mine have lovely families I found the whole experience far too emotional and four years on pretty much still do. I wonder if I'm a bit of a freak for not properly letting go but surely others feel emotionally tied too! 

I just wouldn't plan a litter in a million years, rather just enjoy the ones I have without the added stress!


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> If the pups are wanted for showing, from great show or working lines I can kind of understand because we need good quality dogs to continue to breed good dogs but I can't for the life of me understand breeding for any other reason.


I've always wanted people to breed superb pets. Most dogs are pets not workers or show dogs. How about purpose breeding pet dogs?

I imagine them as a well designed mongrel. Lots of variety in shape, size, colour and fur texture/patterns/length etc. Bred for perfect (OK as near as possible) health, longevity (14-17 years), and temperament.

As mongrels they would keep a very diverse gene pool going and throw up a nice variety of traits to appeal to a variety of people.

Just don't look at me. Like Malmum I have NO wish to breed.

Dog breeding worries me sometimes. The gene puddles of some breeds are going to need out-crossing, where do the "healthy" genes come from? People like me, who own mongrels, don't breed. People who do breed well usually breed show or working dogs. That leaves breeders who produce careless litters or status dogs, and a few folk who do cross-bred dogs well. I suppose there are puppy mills :yikes: :yikes:

We NEED a big pool of diverse dogs for the sake of the dog population itself. How about breeding pet dogs; CORRECTLY and ETHICALLY???


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ozrex said:


> I've always wanted people to breed superb pets. Most dogs are pets not workers or show dogs. How about purpose breeding pet dogs?
> 
> I imagine them as a well designed mongrel. Lots of variety in shape, size, colour and fur texture/patterns/length etc. Bred for perfect (OK as near as possible) health, longevity (14-17 years), and temperament.
> 
> ...


But who want to breed pet dogs correctly and ethically? Like you I have a mongrel and think I'll always have them, but lets be fair I don't think there are many ethical mongrel breeders, but then personally I don't consider it a priority to health test in massively mixed dogs who have had no problems, all the mongrels I have known (most dogs my friends own) have always been a picture of perfect health. And how would it be financially viable to breed correctly? I'm not saying people should be making money, but if you did test etc and only had a small litter you would most likely lose money as mongrels don't exactly command a large fee, hence why I think a lot will just be badly cared for accidental pregnancies.

As to the original question Malmum I have no idea - I think people must be mad! You wouldn't find me looking after 10 8week old pups, no way, one was more than enough running around pooing and weeing every hour without 9 more. :lol: I don't think a lot of people realise how much hard work it is until it hits them.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I actually enjoy breeding puppies.

All my bitches are health tested before mating. I'm a KC assured breeder with the intention of giving the people who buy my puppies the best I can provide.

Hopefully they will have years of enjoyment and loyalty from a loving pet and its all down to me.

I am aware of the problems which may occur with both the breeding of my bitch and the homing of my puppies but am prepared for those.

Seeing the joy on people's faces as they collect their puppies....there's nothing quite like it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've had the opposite experience to the poster above, the only mongrel I've owned was a terrible example of a dog, if a dog should be healthy and of good temperament, she was at the bottom of the scale. She ran like a rocking horse because she was the wrong shape, and had a very dodgy temperament. Granted my experience is based on owning one mongrel, I've known a few more owned by friends but I know a lot more pedigrees, and although some have had health issues, they're a fairly healthy bunch overall. 

I would only breed if I wanted to keep back a pup, I don't have the time to breed for more than that, but I don't have any problem with those who do and go about it ethically and responsibly, contributing good quality pups to the various gene pools. I don't have an issue with cross breeds either, I do have an issue with people generally accepting without knowing that the pups from such matings will be healthier. Statistically, yes, but it's not morally right to breed a litter of pups on the basis that 1 in ten, twenty, thirty, who knows, will possibly lead a deformed and painful life because the person breeding them doesn't know enough about the health of the parents, or what the resulting progeny will be like. And that's where I have a huge bug bear with things like puggles, and barsheis and the likes, where people are randonly crossing dogs that don't have great conformation as a pedigree, ie they have some health issues because of it, and expecting *all* resulting progeny to be healthier. 

I know many people will have seen my posts about Tau's litter, but it helps the more people see the actual figures. Tau had her hips and elbows done, BVA eye cert, PRA and CNM tests, all clear and good results for hips and elbows. The whelping kit I bought, much of it was a one off, so if I do breed again, I'll have to buy in another whelping box along with a few bits of other stuff, some I can use again. Washing! I bought a very good value roll of vet bed which gave me 8 pieces large enough for the whelping bed, £55. I washed at least two pieces every single day on a high temperature, I don't have a tumble drier, so if I needed it drying quickly, I popped the heating on if it was raining. I spent £90 alone on food for the pups to wean them, that's not counting the extra food Tau had, and I also contributed towards the food that puppy owners took away with them, I got them a breeders discount and they each bought at least one bag of 15kg food to keep them going for a while. Everyone got their puppy with a full puppy pack including instructions, printed pedigree, health test results, CoI information, and paperwork, including contract and endorsement information, all in colour. Each pup was microchipped, and I also gave puppy owners a few freebies, mugs, cards and a puppy dummy and whistle. Tau wasn't the most co-operative to get pregnant, and I did think I'd missed our chance forever, as I wasn't going to try again if she didn't take. It took 5 progesterone tests, each one cost £20 at the vet to draw bloods, and about £60 to process, and the petrol costs to drive from near Huddersfield to Wetherby to get results the same day. Once she was ready, I had two trips across to North Wales to use a stud dog, those costs were lowered as the stud dog I wanted to use was injured, so it could have been a two day trip up to Scotland instead. I paid to have her scanned once I suspected she had indeed taken, and was shocked to find she had (we didn't get one tie from the two visits). And then of course the large cost was £1,500 emergency c-section and I lost two pups, vets treatments were about £500 for both of those. 

All in all, if I were breeding as a business, and took into account all the costs, I would be about £3k down, the only way to breed and make money, is to do it regularly enough so that for the litters where you loose money, you have enough to cover those costs with litters that make money. With the emotional and physical drain of looking after the bitch and pups, it's not something I'd want to do regularly, but some people don't seem to mind it as much, or cope with it better shall we say! And those are who I'd call *good* breeders. Others just don't have a conscience or are ignorant of the moral/ethical issues surrounding breeding lots of dogs, and are happy to churn out pups and just *allow* their bitch to get pregnant time after time.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I hope I was responding to a part of Malmum's original post and I've not shot off at a tangent but I DO think that there's a market for well bred mongrels. There's certainly a need for a mongrel population.

Look at how the doodles have sold. I paid $1000 for Tess and all her litter sold at the speed of light. People like the appearance and the nature of the beasties.

I think if mongrels were bred correctly and ethically then advertised as genuinely good pet dogs there'd be a huge demand.

Maybe I have drifted.......

I was just trying to say that breeding (as Malmum suggested) for show (or at least show quality) dogs or working dogs shouldn't be the end of the matter. The biggest demand is for PET DOGS. How about some *good* ones?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've had the opposite experience to the poster above, the only mongrel I've owned was a terrible example of a dog, if a dog should be healthy and of good temperament, she was at the bottom of the scale. She ran like a rocking horse because she was the wrong shape, and had a very dodgy temperament. Granted my experience is based on owning one mongrel, I've known a few more owned by friends but I know a lot more pedigrees, and although some have had health issues, they're a fairly healthy bunch overall.
> 
> I would only breed if I wanted to keep back a pup, I don't have the time to breed for more than that, but I don't have any problem with those who do and go about it ethically and responsibly, contributing good quality pups to the various gene pools. I don't have an issue with cross breeds either, I do have an issue with people generally accepting without knowing that the pups from such matings will be healthier. Statistically, yes, but it's not morally right to breed a litter of pups on the basis that 1 in ten, twenty, thirty, who knows, will possibly lead a deformed and painful life because the person breeding them doesn't know enough about the health of the parents, or what the resulting progeny will be like. * And that's where I have a huge bug bear with things like puggles, and barsheis and the likes, where people are randonly crossing dogs that don't have great conformation as a pedigree*, ie they have some health issues because of it, and expecting *all* resulting progeny to be healthier.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify SL when I say mongrel, I mean mongrel not just crossbreed, I mean intermixed dogs that are somewhat hard to even tell what breed they are (like my own who has at least 7 breeds in her lines).  That's what I say when I mean a healthy mongrel, not a designer cross or crossbreed, I know of problems in many crossbreeds, but not mongrels.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ozrex said:


> I hope I was responding to a part of Malmum's original post and I've not shot off at a tangent but I DO think that there's a market for well bred mongrels. There's certainly a need for a mongrel population.
> 
> Look at how the doodles have sold. I paid $1000 for Tess and all her litter sold at the speed of light. People like the appearance and the nature of the beasties.
> 
> ...


I'd agree with you to some extent, but not in an exerimental 'what about trying a poodle and a great dane?' way, if that makes sense. Someone who came on recently to post about their litter that contained 3 small breeds known for patella luxation, was slightly disappointed when people weren't as impressed with her idea of ethical breeding. We know some of the issues we have with pedigree dogs, including the inbreeding co-efficient. We know next to nothing about the vast majority of cross breeds, and that's what I was trying to express in my wordy post above, for me it is morally wrong to make assumptions about health, based on no knowledge, it's the dogs that *could* end up suffering if your statistics don't work and the pups you breed don't have hybrid vigour but suffer from a disease that spans gene pools and has conformation issues, after all, cross breeding dogs isn't a true out cross, because even though we have closed gene pools many have a shared ancestry, some of which is more recent than many think.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Just to clarify SL when I say mongrel, I mean mongrel not just crossbreed, I mean intermixed dogs that are somewhat hard to even tell what breed they are (like my own who has at least 7 breeds in her lines).  That's what I say when I mean a healthy mongrel, not a designer cross or crossbreed, I know of problems in many crossbreeds, but not mongrels.


Sorry, cross posted with folks!

Hmmm, I'm not so sure, I would want more information tbh, lack of information isn't a guarantee that they are healthier, nor is insurance data, a lot of people don't take their pets to the vets when they are poorly.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I only breed if I have a bitch when I want to keep a pup and she is soooo good that is would be a mistake not to. I have had an excellent bitch that would certainly fulfilled that criteria, but didn't breed from her because she came from a successful litter, several of who were bred, so her lines were out there - no need to. It's hard work, stressful and emotional and I wouldn't want to put any of my dogs through it unless I had an overwhelming reason for doing it.

I don't understand why people want to breed. I think it must be to do with their maternal instinct kicking in. But I think it's wrong to subject a dog to something like that which is only OUR desires, not the dog's.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, cross posted with folks!
> 
> Hmmm, I'm not so sure, I would want more information tbh, lack of information isn't a guarantee that they are healthier, nor is insurance data, a lot of people don't take their pets to the vets when they are poorly.


I'd love to see some research done into it but I can't see it happening, and like you say insurance values aren't the be all and end all. Perhaps if a mongrel society or club did a survey for mongrels rather than crosses and health etc. this might help provide a bit of insight.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

I would absolutely love to have the experience of going through my dogs pregnancy, birth and the litter 

I'm fascinated by dogs and keen to learn as much as I can about canine behaviour so will be a big learning experience for me as well!

I can't say for sure if I would ever do it but if I did I would do it properly! Doing all my research and making sure I was financially sound should any problems occur with mum or any of the pups. Making sure both mum and dad are happy and healthy animals with good temperaments. It would never be about money and I would of course offer lifetime help with the pups with behaviour, boarding and taking them in at anytime should they lose their homes.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> As you may know I had a litter, OH's mistake that I didn't know til too late but why do people with lovely pets want to have a litter?
> 
> You don't make money, in fact it can cost you money. It's extremely hard work - constantly washing bedding, clearing up pee/poop and buying puppy pads. Endless rounds of feeding. Endless late nights and very early mornings. Vet trips to check mum and babies then vaccinations and annoying people that want to touch your pups, not understanding your reasons why they can't. Endless calls and visits by strangers, some who sound good but in the flesh don't even know how to greet a dog let alone raise a pup. Loads of paper work. Fifteen or so years of commitment in case things don't work out. The most awful heartache at letting them go and added to all that the possibilty of losing pups or even the mum!
> 
> ...


I kind of agree with you in as much as - if you are not showing / working or performing some other activity with your dogs, why would they want to breed?

Having said that, there is absolutely NO DOUBT there is a need for good ethical pet breeders in many breeds - if only to detract from the business of puppy farmers and Back Yard breeders - the trouble is - those good ethical breeders will also have their own tolerances and rules on who they will and won't sell a pup to - and these people will still fall back on PF and BYB unless something can be done to stop them.

There are a lot of good people who buy puppies and do less research than if they are buying a new TV or fridge  and there are some people out there who, whilst they may be completely unsuitable for a puppy because of their family set-up, living or working arrangements etc but are still in a good position to take on an adult dog - but try convincing them of that.

I had someone recently desperate for a pup - I didn't feel that their circumstances were quite right for a pup, and found them a lovely lovely fully house-trained dog who had had to be returned to his original owner because of the owners ill-health (it's not just breeders that will take dogs back) - but nope they wanted a puppy.

I think the real issue here is some of us will never understand why pet owners want to breed - but if the presence of forums can make at least some of them think twice, or be prepared to put the time and effort in to do it properly and recognise the risks, then surely that must be a step in the right direction.

I have NO objection to new breeders, I was one myself not so long ago - but I do object to those not even prepared to consider using health-tests for both parents etc


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> I would absolutely love to have the experience of going through my dogs pregnancy, birth and the litter
> 
> I'm fascinated by dogs and keen to learn as much as I can about canine behaviour so will be a big learning experience for me as well!
> 
> I can't say for sure if I would ever do it but if I did I would do it properly! Doing all my research and making sure I was financially sound should any problems occur with mum or any of the pups. Making sure both mum and dad are happy and healthy animals with good temperaments. It would never be about money and I would of course offer lifetime help with the pups with behaviour, boarding and taking them in at anytime should they lose their homes.


It can be soul destroying, one bitch pup struggled right from the start with Tau, and after reviving her several times, and spending a lot of money (x-rays to try and see if there was something physically wrong, and other treatments) I decided if she went again I wouldn't revive her. One pup developed problems digesting food, fortunately, her new owner was away on holiday as I would have been beside myself if she'd gone to her new home and then we'd discovered the problem. It wasn't something that could necessarily fixed, and I was against putting such a young pup through very serious surgery to even find out if she could be operated on, so I had her put to sleep, I cried my eyes out for days for both pups, and it still brings tears to my eyes thinking about it. It is one of the hardest things I have ever done, and I've had a fair few knocks in life.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

A few days a go a pregnant bitch suddenly collapsed and died in front of her owners, all her pups died as well, they were due in just a few days so were fully formed puppies.:sad:

When you hear things like that it makes you think about everything that could go wrong.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

See, I'm one of those people who does worry about what people think, and am never sure if they'd see me as a good or horrid breeder... I don't show my dogs (yet); I had wanted to show poppet but she is too big. I will be breeding kuki again this year or next and hope those pups will be of better quality than her previous (of which size was the only real 'problem'). At 20months the 3 of them are all still healthy, happy, playful, little terrors- just like yorkies should be! With any luck I'll get a show boy for a friend out of the next litter- then in years to come if I buy in a little girl (of same type etc) I hope to be able to breed to him. But even if this doesn't happen, my pups will go to their new homes endorsed, under contract, with everything you would expect from a worthwhile breeder and hopefully a little bit more.
But for the most part the pups will be pets- great pets at that- surely there ain't nothing wrong with that!
I Love puppies, but I also love the research before a litter, and after. I love making up puppy packs, talking to prospective puppy owners, I didn't even mon the round the clock feeds one of the pups from a past litter needed- it meant I got a puppy cuddle every 2hours 24/7 (well, 24/4 as he only needed my help for 4 days).
I think however, that the people who just want to experience a litter- or want their kids do experience it  - there are plenty of dogs end up at shelters pregnant who could do with a home rather than kennels... Although I do think that 'for the kids' is a pretty stupid idea concidering what all can go wrong. That is of course only my opinion based on what I personally have seen and heard.
If here were no Good pet breeders breeding, and doing things right, surely that would limit the gene pool irreversibly in most breeds- even those as vast as labs and yorkies?


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Tollisty said:


> A few days a go a pregnant bitch suddenly collapsed and died in front of her owners, all her pups died as well, they were due in just a few days so were fully formed puppies.:sad:
> 
> When you hear things like that it makes you think about everything that could go wrong.


I have had 8 beautiful well bred GRs over many many years and would have loved to of bred just one litter to keep a pup from that litter for myself.

The reason I have never bred is because of what Tollisty has just said in her post and I cannot take the chance of losing one of my girls for my own needs.

Just me being a softie I expect.


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Tollisty said:


> A few days a go a pregnant bitch suddenly collapsed and died in front of her owners, all her pups died as well, they were due in just a few days so were fully formed puppies.:sad:
> 
> When you hear things like that it makes you think about everything that could go wrong.


How very sad


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Darth said:


> I actually enjoy breeding puppies.
> 
> All my bitches are health tested before mating. I'm a KC assured breeder with the intention of giving the people who buy my puppies the best I can provide.
> 
> ...


I think that's excellent actually. I didn't mean to breed only for showing or working but meant only to breed from good quality dogs for both the pet market and the professional market. Us pet owners like to have good quality dogs too and many on here have that, Kilo the Ridgies mum is just one that springs to mind and she now has another excellent quality pup in the pipe line. I'm not one for showing myself but would always want future dogs from very healthy parentage so as I know am more likely to have a healthy, sound pet. I have seen Mals that are sold to 'show/working homes only' and although that's the breeders prerogative I think it's a bit unfair because pet dogs can have great homes too, having said that with Mals I can sort of understand the 'working' side and my opinion has slightly changed in that I feel they do even better in an active, working home.

I think it would be wonderful to have sound cross breeds and mongrels too, perhaps we will one day, some at least. I also feel that we need some kind of show/work experience somewhere in a line in order that the breed actually looks like and does what it's supposed to - I've lost count of how many Labs and Staffs I have seen that don't look like the breed should only to find from the owner that they are KC regd, simply being thrown together just because of that fact with no thought as to what the parents should actually look like and the pups looking like crosses.

It may be because I wasn't planning a litter that I found the parting so hard to handle, I am not the kind of person cut out to say goodbye with a smile, tbh I was a bit of an embarrassment!  I do take my hat off to breeders like Kilo's though, who produce excellent quality pups for pet and show homes.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Malmum, when we took home my Billy the breeder wept and held him, I wasn't sure if she was going to give him to us!

She was an experienced breeder and had litters before but he cared that much for him. So it's not just you and it shows you care, I know I'd be crying for weeks too!


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## Doggiesrule100 (Sep 2, 2012)

I guess it's because people want certain breeds. After all most of us on here wouldn't have our dogs if it wasn't for breeders. But I don't plan on breeding my dog just yet! I would NOT do it for money, the puppies would be purely for pets!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I have seen Mals that are sold to 'show/working homes only' and although that's the breeders prerogative I think it's a bit unfair because pet dogs can have great homes too, having said that with Mals I can sort of understand the 'working' side and my opinion has slightly changed in that I feel they do even better in an active, working home.


There dogs - are they either show and/or working?

I know some working Lab breeders who will only place pups in homes where their brains are going to be used by working or similar activity - this is not an afront or insult in any way to pet owners - it's just that these breeders know their lines and will have a good understanding of whether their pups would settle in pet homes, or whether it they are likely to need more stimuli than they would get in the average good pet owners home.

Some of these dogs may subsequently be moved on to pet homes as they mature if they are not found to have the instinct and drive required to do a days work.

In contrast, in show bred litters, there are absolutely no guarantees that any pup will do well in the showring - pups do change as they get older - and don't always come on as hoped for /expected.

But it is unusual (but not unheard of) to get several show potential pups in a litter - I know of a few litters that have gone on to produce two or more SH CH / CH and others doing all round well in the show-ring achieving Junior Warrants, Show certificate of merits, stud book numbers etc - and the number of such litters do seem to be increasing, which can only be a positive thing - nevertheless, in most average sized litters, there will be a combination of dogs with show potential and those the breeder feels should be pet homed - so I would be a tad surprised there are breeders out there asking for show homes only - if it is show and / or working (in breeds where hasn't been a divergence in type) - then yes, I guess it could happen.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

krazyone said:


> It brings enrichment to not only your life, but also your bitch's. It gives her a purpose and allows her to fulfil her maternal instincts. Saying that, it's no mean feat, it takes commitment and dedication. And strength of character. Also it isn't a money spinner.
> 
> I don't believe in Breeding to better the breed. Breeds have been cultivated by humans for many years, for our own purposes. Some breeds, such as Bulldogs, can't birth naturally, nor can they conceive without intervention. How is this ethical ??!! Nor is narrowing the gene pool, we all know the health problems caused.
> 
> ...


Pardon? Do you have proof to back up any of that?
A botch can be Perfectly happy without pups- often more so than with... Take the recent issues a mastiff owned on here had; do you honestly think her bitch feels fulfilled with pups?
My kuki did love being a mother, an would nurse anything you asked her to. But that doesn't mean he gets unhappy or depressed when pupless.
I you do not believe in bettering and maintaining breeds, I take it you don't like breeds at all?

As for the money/living part  I'll let someone else address that.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Doggiesrule100 said:


> I guess it's because people want certain breeds. After all most of us on here wouldn't have our dogs if it wasn't for breeders. But I don't plan on breeding my dog just yet! I would NOT do it for money, the puppies would be purely for pets!


Every single one of the pups I bred, is a pet, I plan to do a bit of competition and showing with the pup I kept back, and two other people are possibly going to have a dabble. There is no difference in breeding standards between a field trial champion, working trials champion, show champion, and a bl**dy good companion animal, there shouldn't be two standards of breeding just because you don't plan to do anything competitive with a dog, and there is no difference in the actual breeding costs. The only difference is if you have campaigned your dog, and made them up into some sort of a champion, some folks aim to recoup a little of the money spent on entry fees, travelling etc, by charging a little extra for pups/stud fees.



krazyone said:


> It brings enrichment to not only your life, but also your bitch's. It gives her a purpose and allows her to fulfil her maternal instincts. Saying that, it's no mean feat, it takes commitment and dedication. And strength of character. Also it isn't a money spinner.
> 
> I don't believe in Breeding to better the breed. Breeds have been cultivated by humans for many years, for our own purposes. Some breeds, such as Bulldogs, can't birth naturally, nor can they conceive without intervention. How is this ethical ??!! Nor is narrowing the gene pool, we all know the health problems caused.
> 
> ...


 Well in that case I'm [email protected] at business, not only haven't I bred from each bitch I own, and wasted money health testing on a bitch I then had spayed, but I was £3k down on the one and only litter I've bred so far. I wouldn't breed for money, ever, I've got a job and a full time business that bring in money, the only reason I would breed is to keep a pup back for me. In which instance I am perfectly prepared to loose money, as I did with Tau's litter.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

swarthy said:


> There dogs - are they either show and/or working?
> 
> I know some working Lab breeders who will only place pups in homes where their brains are going to be used by working or similar activity - this is not an afront or insult in any way to pet owners - it's just that these breeders know their lines and will have a good understanding of whether their pups would settle in pet homes, or whether it they are likely to need more stimuli than they would get in the average good pet owners home.
> 
> ...


There are some but one in particular breeder of rough collies where every puppy of every litter is show or breeding homes, which is obviously their choice but not every puppy of every litter would have the greatest show potential. Billy my last dog the breeder said he had loads of potential in hi looks but he was too shy and not outgoing for a show dog.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> There are some but one in particular breeder of rough collies where every puppy of every litter is show or breeding homes, which is obviously their choice but not every puppy of every litter would have the greatest show potential. Billy my last dog the breeder said he had loads of potential in hi looks but he was too shy and not outgoing for a show dog.


Yes - it isn't just about conformation to breed standard (although some breed standards do contain references to temperament) - but the dogs attitude in the ring, and for some dogs, whether they actually like showing or not.

I've got three here who would happily show all day every day given the chance - I've got one who is OK in the ring - but cheekier when he is out of it - and one who quite simply doesn't like the showring at all - a real shame because she had some nice results - but ultimately, if a dog doesn't want to be in the ring, there is only so much you can do to try and "turn them".

I had a gorgeous yellow boy - qualified him at 8 months for Crufts - really nicely put together - he started out he was OK in the ring - I'm not really sure what happened - but he went from that to absolutely hating it - we persevered for a while - but it's an expensive hobby and there is only so much you can do before you have to draw a line under things.

He was an adorable boy but with a lot of drive and energy and even more willing than usual (for Labs) to get up to mischief - he now lives on an 80 acre farm by the sea, where the agility club is run in the owners barn and is having an absolute ball.

Some people might think I was wrong to give him away - but I did it because the right family came along - and even they discovered, for the first time in their lives that they needed to buy a crate for when they weren't around (and they owned several dogs including Labs, cross-breeds and mountain dogs)

He quite simply didn't fit into our lifestyle - I cried for days after he went, but know in my heart I did the right thing for him. I literally had literally hundreds of enquiries about him through word of mouth, and said no to all of them, until a friend of a friend was looking for an older lab. (In addition to the heartbreak - I also lost around £1,000 in all - so emotionally and financially, not the best decision for us, but definitely the best for the dog - and to me, that's what matters most, whether you are homing an 8 week old pup or, as in this case, a 20 month old dog.

And no (because I am sure someone will ask) - I don't automatically rehome dogs I can't / don't show - I have three here who are seldom if ever shown now, one that is shown occasionally and two who are shown regularly.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

We had the experience of a pregnant bitch/litter- not through us breeding but because we took in a pregnant stray (I say 'stray' but she technically had an owner who just had nothing to do with her, I think this was her sixth litter and she was too old for it anyway). 

We took her in very late on in the pregnancy and it was plenty challenging- she needed an emergency C-section at 2am, ten pups in total, mum had no milk so all were hand-reared, three puppies died (one at birth, the other two within the first few days) but seven went on to become absolutely beautiful dogs. They were a complete mix and there were multiple fathers in the litter. Mum was a small/medium terrier mix herself and the dads were whatever dogs had managed to get to her. We found homes for them through friends/family and work colleagues and they all went to their new homes for free- so this litter was 100% reared at a financial loss! 

As difficult as the whole process was I don't regret any of it. It was to date, one of the best experiences that I have ever had- a privilege. I consider the day they entered the world to be one of the best days of my life. We kept mum and two of the puppies- and stayed in touch with our pups as they have gone through the course of their lives. The ones that are left are 16 now- for dogs that turned our medium/large that isn't bad going, their health has also been, by and large excellent. Last year I wept and grieved with the owner of one of my 'pups' as he was PTS. And I miss him still, like I miss all my babies. You never really let them go.

I'm too much of a control freak to ever do it again. With this litter, we were lucky. I would want 100% for any pups that started off life as my responsibility and I know that with the best will in the world I couldn't guarantee it.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

krazyone said:


> It brings enrichment to not only your life, but also your bitch's. It gives her a purpose and allows her to fulfil her maternal instincts. Saying that, it's no mean feat, it takes commitment and dedication. And strength of character. Also it isn't a money spinner.
> 
> I don't believe in Breeding to better the breed. Breeds have been cultivated by humans for many years, for our own purposes. Some breeds, such as Bulldogs, can't birth naturally, nor can they conceive without intervention. How is this ethical ??!! Nor is narrowing the gene pool, we all know the health problems caused.
> 
> ...


What a crock of crap!!!!
dogs do not need to have puppies,same as humans do not need to have babies!
Breeding does not make money,more often than not you lose money.
Never heard such rubbish!


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

krazyone said:


> It brings enrichment to not only your life, but also your bitch's. It gives her a purpose and allows her to fulfil her maternal instincts. Saying that, it's no mean feat, it takes commitment and dedication. And strength of character. Also it isn't a money spinner.
> 
> I don't believe in Breeding to better the breed. Breeds have been cultivated by humans for many years, for our own purposes. Some breeds, such as Bulldogs, can't birth naturally, nor can they conceive without intervention. How is this ethical ??!! Nor is narrowing the gene pool, we all know the health problems caused.
> 
> ...


What an absolute load of rubbish! Dogs are dogs - do not make the mistake of giving them human needs and drives.

You don't believe in breeding to better the breed - what would you breed for? Just to fill an over supplied "pet market"? In my opinion, far too many puppies are bred and so many people who shouldn't have dogs (for various reasons) want them and find it far too easy to get them - and then dispose of them at a whim 

And you can't have it both ways. In your fifth sentence you state breeding isn't a money spinner - and then in your last sentence you state that breeders breed to make a living!

And as to your statement "All breeders do it for the money, however they paint it" - I think you are judging others by your own standards!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Just to fill an over supplied "pet market"? 

I don't believe it is over supplied. If it was, pet breeders wouldn't be able to sell their puppies and they do, quite easily.

The majority of puppy adverts for the popular breeds on Champdogs have full waiting lists.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Darth said:


> Just to fill an over supplied "pet market"?
> 
> I don't believe it is over supplied. If it was, pet breeders wouldn't be able to sell their puppies and they do, quite easily.
> 
> The majority of puppy adverts for the popular breeds on Champdogs have full waiting lists.


I think it is over supplied, just look on Many tears site, they are often looking for homes for pups that have been given to them cos the "breeder" cant sell them


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Many Tears imports rescues from Ireland.

Besides not everyone wants a rescue.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

krazyone said:


> It brings enrichment to not only your life, but also your bitch's. It gives her a purpose and allows her to fulfil her maternal instincts. Saying that, it's no mean feat, it takes commitment and dedication. And strength of character. Also it isn't a money spinner.
> 
> I don't believe in Breeding to better the breed. Breeds have been cultivated by humans for many years, for our own purposes. Some breeds, such as Bulldogs, can't birth naturally, nor can they conceive without intervention. How is this ethical ??!! Nor is narrowing the gene pool, we all know the health problems caused.
> 
> ...


What a load of rubbish.
But seeing as it has come from a byb who hasn't got a clue about raising dogs I'm not surprised. Has it improved your bitches nervous temperament? And I guess from your comments you are doing it for money? especially as you have done no health tests.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

I thought I'd read that many tears get most of their dogs from puppy farms? Maybe the message is finally getting through about buying from home breeders and not the farms? Now only if we can be everyone to research Good breeders!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> I think it is over supplied, just look on Many tears site, they are often looking for homes for pups that have been given to them cos the "breeder" cant sell them


whilst I stand by my opinion that I don't understand the purpose of why pet breeders do breed (but still believe there is a need for good pet breeders) - I really don't think you can cite Many Tears (or most of the other welsh rescue organisations) as good examples for over population of the pet market.

It's no secret where their dogs come from - and it's most certainly not from your average responsible / ethical pet / show / working / agility breeder - I am sure they get the occasional one - but they will be the exception to the rule.

If truth be known - I would actually LIKE to see Rescues getting puppies that the puppy farmers and BYB can't sell - because this is a very clear message to them -go and make your money elsewhere because this is no longer going to work for you.

Long term - it would have a MASSIVE negative impact on their business - ultimately leading to over-crowding in rescue initially - but that would pass.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

krazyone said:


> It brings enrichment to not only your life, but also your bitch's. It gives her a purpose and allows her to fulfil her maternal instincts. Saying that, it's no mean feat, it takes commitment and dedication.


Bitches don't associate being mated with having pups - and many of them completely freak out when faced with giving birth, at best, wanting nothing to do with their babies - at worst, as happened to a PF member recently, wanting to, and actually killing one of them 

Bitches don't "scream out" like some women of a desperate need to have a child (or more likely children) - they aren't able to understand what they are (or are not) missing by not having a litter.

No-one has any idea how good a mother a bitch will be until the pups are arriving - by which time it is too late.

The dam of my last litter (just like her mother) couldn't be fazed by anything - she was completely bomb-proof with a gentle loving nature - she completely freaked out when she went into labour and would have nothing to do with her pups  she did come round eventually and was an OK mother - but there is no doubt it changed her personality irrevocably - she completely lost her "spark" - it was heartbreaking ;(



krazyone said:


> I don't believe in Breeding to better the breed. Breeds have been cultivated by humans for many years, for our own purposes. Some breeds, such as Bulldogs, can't birth naturally, nor can they conceive without intervention. How is this ethical ??!! Nor is narrowing the gene pool, we all know the health problems caused.


:yikes: is that justification for having an unregistered litter 

Unless a breed has an extroardinarily small gene pool - possibly with the except of a few renowned breeders in most breeds - it would be arrogant to say we breed to improve the breed - but we do breed to try and improve our lines - and coupled with that for show and working folk is recognising what is required and trying to develop down that route - who exactly is "narrowing gene pools" - you might want to study a few breeds in a bit more depth before reiterating such statements.

This for me is where many pet breeders might fall down - because they don't have the familiarity with the breed standard and how to assess their dog against it, identify their weaknesses and then find a stud dog who might be capable of strengthening those weaknesses without compromising / losing the bitch's strengths.



krazyone said:


> Also it isn't a money spinner.





krazyone said:


> All breeders do it for the money, however they paint it. Breeders breed to make a living. End of.


 These are rather contradictory statements :yikes:

It's not a "money spinner" - but "breeders breed to make a living" 

I (and many many others) most certainly don't breed to make a living - I'd certainly be in trouble if that was the case as my last litter was over three years ago !!!!

I WORK to make a living - and breed if I want to try and develop my line and my next generation.

Work funds my passion and the ability to take a litter should I want to - after spending several hundred pounds on buying in or raising the bitch to start with - then another several hundred pounds on health-testing - then pretty much the same again on pre-mate testing and the stud dog (not including travelling costs).

The "hourly" rate of breeding an average sized litter of Labs comes in at someting ludicrous like £2.80 an hour if you sell at the top end of the price scale - that's before any deductions for health-testing / stud fees, feeding, utility bills etc

In order to make a living out of breeding, you would have to truly pile them high in terms of the numbers of pups bred then maximise the potential of every bitch my taking the number of KC permitted litters (currently 4 if giving birth naturally and 2 if c-sections are required)

Of course, to stay in front financially, none of the girls would need c-sections for which there is evidence that some out of hours organisations charge as much as £2K for a large / giant breed.

You would probably have to get your own stud dogs and use them on your own girls rather than using external dogs to recoup your costs and then make them widely available at stud - so many prospective visiting bitches are turned away on first enquiry because of lack of health-tests and often KC registration - but to make money - you would have to overlook this issue in these bitches.

Yes - if you have a quality producing health-tested stud dog, then there is the potential to make SOME money if he's used regularly -

Again that will only apply to a very small number of breeders with dogs successful enough in their own right and producing dogs of similar or superior quality - even then, unless you have a very tight gene pool - the majority are unlikely to be make a living out of standing dogs at stud.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

krazyone said:


> I am not a "Breeder". I've done it once, the initial outlay for required equipment etc isn't cheap and like I said before, it isn't a money spinner for those looking for a quick buck.
> 
> However, long-term breeders do it to make a living. It's their business. And so, their livelihood. It doesn't matter how ethical they make themselves out to be - they are making money from breeding.
> 
> And, all animals have the drive to reproduce. It's nature's way of continuing the species.


The only people who make a living from breeding dogs are called puppy farmers, nobody I know makes a living from breeding alone, if dogs are their *business* there is always at least one other aspect to it, eg dog training, kennels, or even something like those who own farmland running a shoot where they work their dogs as well. I only know one person who makes a living from solely standing their dog at stud, and that's because they also campaign their dog very successfully, to the point where they have been offered large sums of money for the dog.

There is a vast difference between the natural drive to mate, and the concept that dogs want to have puppies so they can enjoy being a mother and fulfill their lives by doing so.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Wether you have bred once or a hundred times, you are a breeder

Definition of farming....to produce/rear stock. The puppy farmers or commercial breeders are doing exactly that and can make money and lots of it. Is it ethical? Keeping dogs to use as cash cows?! Not in my book! 

I took one litter from my girl, extremely well planned. I wanted to keep a boy which I have. My girl was then spayed as I wasn't prepared to have any 'accidents'

Did I make money? No, I lost heaps! But I have my boy


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

No, you're not listening, some good breeders do make money on some litters, but they are not in it for the money. A lot of the time they also loose money on litters, I did, and it will be at least two years until I even think about breeding again, and I have a whole raft of health tests to do before I make the decision whether I will or not. Not really a very good way to make a reliable and regular source of income then is it? 

You're saying everyone who breeds dogs is in it for the money where as that is not at all the primary reason or consideration most people I know who breed dogs do so. If that were the case most of them would be taking up breeding unethically, churning out unhealth tested litters that aren't KC registerable and spending their evenings thinking up random names for their new creation, oh wait, does that sound familiar?

Edited to add my pedigree dogs were £600, 11 health tests and colour tests between the parents so I had a good idea what to expect. The most expensive dog I've seen? £12,500 was a teacup pomeranian, most likely not pedigree, a quick google brings up a raft of non-KC pedigrees that are more expensive. You need to question if you can't afford to buy a nicely bred dog, whether KC or non-KC registered, whether you should buy one in the first place. There's a lot more than the initial outlay for a pup to consider.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

krazyone said:


> But you're not listening to what I'm saying either. I had no intentions of making money. My vets bills have been huge, which I expected.
> 
> You are categorising all breeders under one of two headings; Good Breeders and Puppy Farmers/ BYBs; Backyard Breeders and Puppy Farmers being only in it for the money. But it isn't as clear-cut as that. There are plenty of "good" breeders who have only had one or two litters, not bred for Pedigree Qualities, but just bred as companion pets! And there are Pedigree Breeders who DO make plenty of money. !
> 
> And your sarcastic comment about thinking up random names for new creations - Why would that sound familiar to me!? I haven't bred "Designer" Cross-Breds. My dogs are Springers, they're just not show-winners.


I don't think you're listening at all tbh, I never once have said and I would certainly never say all pedigree breeders are good breeders who are solely in it for the right reason. There are several pedigree breeders I wouldn't touch with a barge pole that are well thought of both in the trialling and show worlds. Your comment was that EVERYONE is in it for the money, and that simply isn't true as has been proven from various posts following your sweeping generalisation. It's your assumption that I'm saying all pedigree breeders are good, and all non-pedigree breeders are bad, entirely wrong and not at all what I've said anywhere. I do know several good breeders of pedigree dogs, I only know a small number of people who breed good quality cross bred dogs that have health tested parents. I haven't a foggiest if any of them make a huge amount of money but in all cases they are not in it for the money, they are in it because they are proud of their dogs and what they have achieved and want to try and take that through to the next generation.

My sarcastic comment was generally aimed at the number of puppies available that cost a lot more than a well bred pedigree and have made up name tags, ie the type of breeder who is in it for the money and doesn't think of the dogs. If you thought it was aimed specifically at you that's your business.



krazyone said:


> Colour-tested ?!!!?!?!?!?!?!?! If that's not "Designer", I dunno what is?!!!!


Which shows your ignorance, the dog I used was black carrying chocolate and yellow, it's common practice for stud dog owners to test so that bitch owners know what to expect. I chose to colour test because I wanted to find out if my bitch carries yellow, which she does. There are lots of people who don't like yellow Labrador pups from chocolate matings, it doesn't bother me particularly, there are no health implications involved, the only reason is a colour issue with the nose and eye leathers, as it can possibly produce something called a dudley, ie incorrect colouring. As it happens the litter did produce one dudley, he's gone to a pet home as all of them have, where they don't intend to ever breed, he's a companion for them and their teenage sons, and a very good one from the sounds of it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

krazyone said:


> Personally, I think people should stop trying to play God by attempting to out-wit nature. Who are we to think we have the right to select certain aesthetic qualities in any animal ?!


 Outwit nature? What are you talking about, the way dogs look has nothing to do with outwitting nature, it's to do with the function that *breed type* was developed for.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Which is why there is nothing wrong with people like me, having the odd litter. (My vet has been involved throughout the process so there is no issue of welfare


So far, from your posts, there has been nothing right about your breeding practices. 

You've bred from a nervous bitch with a doubtful temperament. Your pups are 3 weeks and haven't yet been wormed with the excuse you couldn't get a vet appointment (you don't need one - wormers are available online and you should have been prepared). You feed cooked chicken bones which shows how little you know about canine care (and a good breeder SHOULD have a good understanding in order to support their puppy owners). And that's just a couple of posts!

And as for playing God! FFS - YOU deliberately took your bitch to the stud dog, she didn't ask you to!

It's clear you are determined to think you have good breeding practices - it is clear to people who read your posts that you haven't. And, I suspect, that's how it will remain!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

My vets admitted when I was talking to them about breeding, and they are pretty good with canine reproduction, one of the vets actually breeds Labs himself, they have to smile and grit their teeth with the vast majority of clients who breed dogs. So the fact that people put their vet has knowledge etc, etc, means nothing, it's not the place of the vet to tell people whether or not to breed, or whether they think they have good breeding practices. Add to that there are a fair few vets who have poor knowledge of canine reproduction, who give out duff advice, the fact that a vet thinks someone's dog is nice and healthy and it will be a nice litter of puppies, means very little in the grand scheme of things!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

krazyone said:


> And furthermore, there are many people out there who want "ordinary" pups. Just for pets. Not animals who are in-bred to within an inch of life, just to ensure "Prize-Winning" qualities.
> 
> Those "bettering" their breeding lines, still have to sell the remaining puppies. Usually at ridiculous cost because of such qualities.


I want an 'ordinary' dog when I purchase one but don't see them as a separate entity to 'show' dogs; they are ordinary dogs who spend some time being shown to me. I bought Kilo (and will be buying Rudi) from a show breeder because they health test, breed for conformation and temperament and give careful thought to the dogs that they put together. They are not in bred to within an inch of their lives - I can tell by working out the COI.

The prize winning qualities for the show ring are what I want in an ordinary dog - my dog could be shown and do very well (apparently) and was going to be before I moved here BUT the reason that I want these qualities is to give my dog the best chance at good health possible. It stands to reason that good conformation and movement stands a dog in good stead in terms of the chance of injury occurring.

The cost may be ridiculous to you; to me it's worth paying top price for a dog that has been bred with care and with breeders who are pleased to stay in regular contact and will provide advice for the lifetime of the dog.



krazyone said:


> So, what you're saying is "Ethical" Breeders don't make any money from the sale of pups ? !! Yeah right.
> 
> Not everyone can afford the cost of a "Pedigree" dog. Nor, do they want one. Some people just love dogs as pets. Which is why there is nothing wrong with people like me, having the odd litter. (My vet has been involved throughout the process so there is no issue of welfare).
> 
> As has been said many times before, not everyone wants a rescue dog, with an unknown history.


I don't buy pedigree dogs because I am a snob - I want one as I can trace the dogs' ancestries over many generations, research health problems (or lack of) within the lines and for all the reasons I've already stated above.

You do get what you pay for - a man who lives near to me decided he really wanted a RR after meeting Kilo. We chatted and I went through the importance of health testing etc. He dismissed the idea of a pedigree dog from health tested dam and sire as total snobbery and declared them over priced. He duly purchased a RR for £250 bred from two pet dogs which has subsequently cost what Kilo's purchase price cost me several times over in vet bills due to a congenital abnormality.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

krazyone said:


> The Vultures have descended once more ... lol


 . I've not replied to one of your posts before as far as I am aware - just felt the need to reply to that one as you were making certain assumptions about puppy buyers so wanted to give a buyer's perspective; just my own personal reasons for choosing what sort of puppy to buy.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> My vets admitted when I was talking to them about breeding, and they are pretty good with canine reproduction, one of the vets actually breeds Labs himself, *they have to smile and grit their teeth with the vast majority of clients who breed dogs. So the fact that people put their vet has knowledge etc, etc, means nothing*, it's not the place of the vet to tell people whether or not to breed, or whether they think they have good breeding practices. Add to that there are a fair few vets who have poor knowledge of canine reproduction, who give out duff advice, the fact that a vet thinks someone's dog is nice and healthy and it will be a nice litter of puppies, means very little in the grand scheme of things!


Completely agree - I've had conversations like that with several vets. They have to be professional and support an owners decision even if they are biting their tongues while doing so. And then you get the vets who know nothing about breeding anyway, other than how to perfom a c-section, if necessary, when to worm etc.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

krazyone said:


> I am not a "Breeder". I've done it once, the initial outlay for required equipment etc isn't cheap and like I said before, it isn't a money spinner for those looking for a quick buck.
> 
> However, long-term breeders do it to make a living. It's their business. And so, their livelihood. It doesn't matter how ethical they make themselves out to be - they are making money from breeding.
> 
> And, all animals have the drive to reproduce. It's nature's way of continuing the species.


You've had a litter - it means you ARE a breeder

You say "it wasn't a money spinner" - try doing all the health-tests as well - then you would really know about money spinning - i.e. potentially BIG losses

My last litter - income £2,750 - expenditure on the litter - around £3,300 - with one item I couldn't take into consideration for the tax-man - and he took £120.40 of the difference - you call THAT making a living out of breeding 



krazyone said:


> And furthermore, there are many people out there who want "ordinary" pups. Just for pets. Not animals who are in-bred to within an inch of life, just to ensure "Prize-Winning" qualities.
> 
> Those "bettering" their breeding lines, still have to sell the remaining puppies. Usually at ridiculous cost because of such qualities.


Show dogs are "ordinary" pups - all 6 of my dogs are pets, some are shown, some might be bred from - but they are all pets first and foremost - and every single one of them has had the relevant health-tests for the breed - some I've decided not to breed as a result of certain health-tests - but it doesn't mean I love them any less - they all live in doors, our furniture is their furniture - they are all "my babies" and oh boy don't they know it.

The rest of the pups went to pet homes and all have fantastic lives - one came back to get a pup from my second litter they were so pleased with the first.

===============================

There are considerably easier ways of making money than breeding - and as has already been pointed out - it's puppy farmers and Back yard Breeders who make the dosh - because they don't spend out on anywhere near the scale of good breeders - most cut far too many corners - and in the case of puppy farmers - the bitches are left to their own devices to whelp and raise their litters.

I've known people who have bought pups from people like this, and taken home 5 week old pups that have not even been weaned.

You ought to take a look at some of the stories on the Labrador Health website - they are truly heartbreaking

Labrador Health brings you the story of Charlie, the Bionic Pup

Labrador Health: Your stories

Trouble is - they won't touch the hearts of those people who beieve they are right to be Back yard breeders cutting corners left, right and centre and not using any of the available health-schemes - because they are the ones that believe they are immune from any problems arising 

God forbid one of your pups develops a health-problem that an insurance company refuse to pay out for because the parents weren't tested for that condition - and YES - it does happen.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just for information, there were 604 litters of springer spaniels bred between the period of April to June 2012, a total of 3,856 pups registered with the KC. I don't know if it's the same for springers, but in Labradors *we* generally guesstimate the same number of unregistered pups are born alongside registered pups. There are five health tests relevant to this breed, how many did you do? Some of the health issues are seriously painful problems, including hip dysplasia, and glaucoma, for which dogs should be tested via the BVA eye testing scheme to determine if they have this and could therefore pass it to pups. If I were you, I would spend the afternoon reading about the possible health issues your pups could have, so you can tell owners, that's not being nasty or sarcastic in any way, but if you sell those pups without the knowledge of these issues, and one off them develops something you could have prevented by doing these tests, what are you going to say if one of the puppy owners phones you? Even worse, what are you going to say if the puppy owner blames you and wants you to pay for treatment, or threatens you with legal action? Because that is happening now, where puppy buyers are taking breeders to court for failing to undertake the necessary precautions by health testing dogs used for breeding, and thereby putting them, and their dogs, through unecessary suffering.

Edited to ask, how do you know your bitch isn't realted to the stud dog you used? If you've bred to type, even unregistered dogs can be used unknowingly to close relatives.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

krazyone said:


> Me and my son have a Christmas Cake to make, so I'll leave you all to your miserable rantings ... Happy Sunday


Do you know what is frustrating? Typing a polite, carefully considered reply to a post thinking that maybe it will be answered (or even acknowledged) or even some kind of constructive debate had and realising that it was a complete waste of time.....


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2012)

i'd love to post a proper reply seems 'in one earhole and out the other' is the case , you can't educate some
be careful as you might just get called a 'bully' or a 'fanatic' with nothing better to doof course it's nothing at all to do with health testing , researching pedigrees and doing your utmost best to produce quality litters with sound health and temperament no wonder theres thousands of unwanted dogs and puppies on gumtree and the like if this is the mindset of some:yikes:


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

krazyone said:


> Blah, blah, blah ....
> 
> Perhaps because you ARE fanatical bullies with nothing better to do than shout the odds at others who don't happen to agree with you.
> 
> I think your Cauldrons need stirring, ladies


Hmm - I wonder who's actually trying to do the bullying here?

I think you'll find that the polite and reasoned responses have been from those of us who genuinely care about the breeds that we are involved with - and care about dogs in general, pedigree and otherwise. Some people just take from their dogs, others try to do something useful for the breed(s) they love. I've imported dogs from abroad - what have you done to contribute??


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

krazyone said:


> Blah, blah, blah ....
> 
> Perhaps because you ARE fanatical bullies with nothing better to do than shout the odds at others who don't happen to agree with you.
> 
> I think your Cauldrons need stirring, ladies


I don't know why people bother actually giving you advice at all, you only listen to the bits you like.

In any case, here's the link to the KC's page regarding health for the ESS, the links from there will tell you about the conditions that affect this *breed type*, you can still have your bitch tested, if she's clear for the conditions you can test for by submitting a sample of DNA, then at least you'll know the pups will be clear too. The gonioscopy is an ongoing test I think, it's one that's necessary for flatcoats as well, and will be one of the first I do with my bitch. I'd urge you to test for fuco and glaucoma at the very least, both of which are painful and fucosidosis is fatal.

The Kennel Club

I'm going downstairs to my study to put in a few hours overtime for work, which funnily enough, is what pays the bills including the vets in this house!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

krazyone said:


> Blah, blah, blah ....
> 
> Perhaps because you ARE fanatical bullies with nothing better to do than shout the odds at others who don't happen to agree with you.
> 
> I think your Cauldrons need stirring, ladies


If you could point me towards any fanatical or bullying statements I have made I would be interested or indeed anything rude that was said at all - never mind shouting the odds . Likewise others' posts on this thread.

I am not a breeder and never will be, but I do very much care that it is done with a great deal of thought.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

krazyone said:


> Blah, blah, blah ....
> 
> Perhaps because you ARE fanatical bullies with nothing better to do than shout the odds at others who don't happen to agree with you.
> 
> I think your Cauldrons need stirring, ladies


This is so predictable (just as diablo did ). You did exactly the same under your previous username Gemmaalex. Are you going to delete this account and come back as someone new again?


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2012)

well that was the response i expected , thanks for quoting ladies , because i couldn't see it:yikes:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

krazyone said:


> Blah, blah, blah ....
> 
> Perhaps because you ARE fanatical bullies with nothing better to do than shout the odds at others who don't happen to agree with you.
> 
> I think your Cauldrons need stirring, ladies


A pretty typical and anticipated response from someone unable to give a constructive. eloquent and thought out reply to justify their actions 

I don't know why anyone should be surprised or waste their breath any more.

It's not about agreeing - it's about people doing their damned utmost to produce healthy pups who will reward their well chosen owners with long, happy and healthy llves with minimal risks of the pups developing hereditary conditions.

Conditions which potentially subject pups to shortened lives of pain and misery, not to mention the heartache and financial difficulties for their owners and families 

Can YOU say, hand on heart, you have done this to your puppy buyers?

That's nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing or stirring witches cauldrons - it's a harsh reality of the puppy breeding world for those owners continuing to fail in doing their their research and buying from irresponsible breeders


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> I've always wanted people to breed superb pets. Most dogs are pets not workers or show dogs. How about purpose breeding pet dogs?
> 
> I imagine them as a well designed mongrel. Lots of variety in shape, size, colour and fur texture/patterns/length etc. Bred for perfect (OK as near as possible) health, longevity (14-17 years), and temperament.
> 
> As mongrels they would keep a very diverse gene pool going and throw up a nice variety of traits to appeal to a variety of people.


..most breeders fall into three main categories - the first are those that have a passion for a specific breed and are breeding to try and produce the one that makes the hairs on the back of their neck stand up ...the second is that they take part in a canine hobby and wish to produce something that will improve their chances of success .

Breeders with these incentives will have a vested interest in doing it 'right' - after all they will be living with the results of what they breed themselves and the resulting pups will be assessed in competition with others so they have a clear benchmark of the quality of what they are producing - they will breed despite knowing that they will sometimes end up out of pocket because money is not the incentive, they test for health and temperament, keep detailed records, hold puppy parties to socialise their pups, issue contracts and do things with their dogs apart form simply breeding them ....and although breeding pets was not the incentive for breeding the resulting pups do indeed make 'superb pets'

I've left the last and most common reason for breeding to last - i.e to make money - yep these breeders may well be producing ( almost exclusively) for the pet market but they sure as hell are not going to do anything that will impact on their profit !! - lets face it if you rely on breeding to pay the bills you'll hardly be 'wasting' money on health testing , top quality food and the 1:1 time needed to socialise pups properly !

..opting to breed a litter is *not* a altruistic choice - I can think of no-one who would continue to breed simply so that other people can have 'superb pets' - why would you opt for a life of wall to wall puppy poop, a wrecked home and an endless invasion of strangers every weekend ( not to mention the blow to your bank balance , nerves, marriage, social life and sleep patterns ! ) without very good personal reasons for doing so .


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

ozrex said:


> ]I've always wanted people to breed superb pets. Most dogs are pets not workers or show dogs. How about purpose breeding pet dogs?
> 
> . . . We NEED a big pool of diverse dogs for the sake of the dog population itself. How about breeding pet dogs; CORRECTLY and ETHICALLY???


The purpose breeding of pet dogs is a time honored tradition.

Some people do it by participating in 'breeds' and with 'breed clubs'. Others do not. The choice is for the breeder to make as long as they are taking the precautions entailed in producing healthy well temperamented dogs AND taking the responsibility of placing those pups with care and back-up.

You might be interested to know about this project.

_. . . Instead of mandating narrow conformation ranges as demanded by the American Kennel Club for their breeds, the Old-Time Scotch Collie Association has written a breed standard that allows for the range of appearances found in a landrace breed. We recognize that the Old-Time Scotch Collie has always had a diversity of types and we want to maintain that genetic diversity by not trying to shove everybody into the same box.http://www.scotchcollie.org/club/ - http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9708&L=farmcollie&D=1&F=P&P=22300​_


Bijou said:


> .. ...opting to breed a litter is *not* a altruistic choice - I can think of no-one who would continue to breed simply so that other people can have 'superb pets' . . .


That's interesting, becuz I know a couple of breeders personally who do just this.

They don't breed more than a litter every few years though, and keep their own lines going and their incentive is in seeing their lines continuing superbly, producing pups that make the hairs on the back of their neck stand up. Sometimes their lines make it into established breeds that have open studbooks too. Sometimes they are working with a 'type' like an Alaskan Husky or a working farm dog etc.

Many see success in ways that are different than 'competitive' success and have no need for outside recognition of their successes. I am one that has never put a lot of merit on competitive success myself (have always had a distaste for competitive events) so I understand that.

Some of those don't breed purebreds either.

One example:

_The 2005 Chinook National Specialty provided a rare look at the generations of *some of the Cross lines that are active today*. Above you will see The WoodsRunner line starting in photo one - Bowerbank X Timba (1st generation), WoodsRunner X Trailbreaker (2nd generation), WoodsRunner X Sadie (3rd generation), Balsam Ridge Katherine (4th generation, cross to pure). In photo two you see Balsam Ridge Lincoln (UKC registered purebred) who comes from the WoodsRunner Cross line. Photo two also shows some great dogs from the Cloudburst Cross line that stems from Boreayl's Chinooks crossbreeding and Singing Woods crossbreeding. The dogs shown are Cloudburst x Snowy River (3rd generation), ThunderCloud Karelia (4th generation and the 1st cross to pure), WoodsRunner X Alyeska (2nd generation), Boreayl's Tok Of the Town (1st generation). Also pictured in photo two is GreatMountain X North Trav'ler (2nd generation). Photo three shows 3rd generation GreatMountain Crosses - Tanacross, Yukon Charley, Kusko Kwim.http://www.chinook.org/xbreeding.html​_
On topic, and from a blog:

_. . . The primary reason that I keep a lot of dogs, which has nothing to do with breeding and everything to do with the fact that I love dogs being dogs, is that I enjoy watching the social dynamics. . . http://cynoanarchist.wordpress.com/2012/10/06/bitch-bitch-bitch-now-with-extra-snark/​_


Bijou said:


> . . .why would you opt for a life of wall to wall puppy poop, a wrecked home and an endless invasion of strangers every weekend ( not to mention the blow to your bank balance , nerves, marriage, social life and sleep patterns ! ) without very good personal reasons for doing so .


"Very good personal reasons" are going to vary by the person!

There are times in my life I've kept up to 8 dogs and I have taken on the duty of fostering litters and also raising puppies for others . . . and been every bit as limited as many breeders I know. I have kept dogs in multiples well over 30 years now and that is limiting and causes challenges. That is because I LOVE the essence of dogs and all the work that that entails is worth it to me.

There are also those that raise guide dog puppies - limiting their lives as well for others.

Altruism is not in shortage in the dog loving community.

I think your 'boxed in' categories are fairly accurate - but there are outliers.

CC


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I think krazyone has asked for their account to be deleted now. 

Apparently everyone on here is a troll it seems bar them!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

lol divs......................


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I think krazyone has asked for their account to be deleted now.


Thank the Lord for that!

I am flabbergasted by the immaturity of posters on here sometimes. People who you expect to be adult (having a son would assume to be) but open their mouths and show themselves right up. Wonder if she only has the one child, if so I wonder if that's because child birth is no bed of roses and felt *fulfilled* enough not to go there again!  Either way not worth bothering with with that attitude!

Having a litter did NOT fulfil my life, not one bit. I lost a husband of 33 years over it, lost loads of money and am nothing like the woman I was before. My kids all say I used to be such a tough individual, nothing phased me but I am still so emotionally tied up with my pups and especially with the one I kept, that I lost some of my self esteem once they came into the world. The guilt I felt for Kali labouring, the guilt I felt for my Flynn watching him go through two hip replacement surgeries, knowing that I was partly to blame for his unhealthy existence - by trusting someone else with responsibilities I should have been dealing with. I suppose I was lucky it was just him and not all of them that were affected but who knows what the future will bring? something I think about often

Those stories on the links Swarthy posted are heart wrenching, poor babies who did no wrong and paid the price for greed. Kali's breeder's only question when I asked if he would lift her endorsements once I knew she was pregnant was 'how much did you pay for her?' because my OH had paid the top price and had the receipt he lifted with the condition I placed endorsements on my pups - which I was going to do anyway. His reason for this was because 'I don't want my lines affected by breeding' - what a joke, he doesn't have any lines, they are random dogs in the latter part of her pedigree, none health tested - something I now realise but didn't then. He is also still breeding and has a litter nearly every BRS publication. A true BYB yet pretending to have a knowledge with regard to breeding. No wonder Kali isn't a very friendly girl with other dogs, she likely had to fight for survival in her shed as a pup! 

There are many ways to fulfil your life and randomly breeding dogs is definitely not one of them. I doubt Kali was fulfilled either - watching all but one of her pups being taken from her, or the thirteen arduous hours of labour she had to endure.

Anyone who calls that fulfilment is very misguided.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I lost a husband of 33 years over it, lost loads of money and am nothing like the woman I was before. My kids all say I used to be such a tough individual, nothing phased me but I am still so emotionally tied up with my pups and especially with the one I kept, that I lost some of my self esteem once they came into the world.


i'm sorry to hear that
you come across as a very , very gutsy lady.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

diablo said:


> i'm sorry to hear that
> you come across as a very , very gutsy lady.


I can be a pillar of strength for other people but fall very short for myself and find I cry over the least little thing - especially if it's dog related. Just the way the cookie crumbles I suppose eh? 

Wish I'd never had pups but where would I be without Flynn?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

No one really answered the original question, you just got into the usual arguments and 'my litter cost thousands of pounds to rear because I am wonderful' which is repeated on so many threads.

Surely people breed from their pet dogs because they want to. The vast majority of bitches whelp with no problems and produce healthy pups that are sold and make the owner a bit of pin money - or in some cases a great deal. Suppose you breed a bulldog - get 9 pups and sell them at £1500 (which I have known). There is a caesarian to pay for and a few other expenses but one pup will cover the costs, if anything else goes wrong a second pup will cover it. So that is over £10,000 clear profit. Not too bad for 8 weeks work. If it all goes wrong then there is a loss and that person probably does not bother again but I do know someone who it went right for for several litters and made them a fortune. They had only bought the bitch as a money making scheme though it was kept as a pet between litters.

Or you could be like me. I bought a sheltie pup on breeders terms so the first litter was obligatory and both pups went back to the breeder. I had fun, I learned loads and the bitch enjoyed the experience so we repeated it a year later so I could keep a pup. I had 2 pups to sell, no idea if I made a profit, that did not interest me. I was still enjoying it, the bitch was fit and well, the pup I had kept had been spayed and was doing obedience successfully so I bred another litter and had a single pup that died with a caesarian and the bitch was spayed.
Many years later I bred from my standard poodle because I wanted a pup from her and I had other people wanting pups. She was not health tested and neither was the dog. I kept a pup and sold the others to pet homes who all kept in touch with me and I am sure I made a fair bit of money though I never did any sums.

A friend of mine has just phoned me to say her bitch has started whelping. It is her second litter. The first probably cost her the value of one pup, the others were profit. Again she is not counting it up, she loves having pups and the bitch is a good mother.

Another local person is churning out cross breed terriers and she has no problem selling them and does not have many overheads. I would say she does do it for money though.

For most people it is just a case of wanting a litter though and enjoying the fun of rearing them.

I certainly did not find having a litter particularly hard work though my back was extremely bad at the time the pups were wandering around the house and mopping up after them hurt me quite a lot! But then I work with animals all day and a litter of pups is a lot less trouble than calving 30 cows and sorting out problems with baby calves.

Malmum, I hope that is the sort of answer you wanted.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lots of people answered the question, and any other issues that were raised, maybe you didn't read the thread?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes a good honest answer and one that I don't fully comprehend in some ways.

I don't think breeding should be about us having fun. I also know from my own experience that by not health testing my two I put Flynn through hell, it didn't hurt me physically but it did him, especially after the dislocation and subsequent further major op in the space of one week. A pup that dies after a C section and a dog that 'loves having pups' all a bit human focussed pleasures and not dog related at all really. I mean we all know our dogs love chocolate but they don't have it. Mother nature usually provides hormones to help with motherhood, a surge to encourage milk flow and instincts kick in because of them. That's not the dog 'loving it' that's nature. I know a woman who really does love having babies, she has just had her twelfth  ****ing mad I call it! The same as I call it mad to have pups because to us it's fun, it should be about animal welfare not fun. If you want fun go take some recreational drugs, potentially harm yourself not something else! Just my opinion!

I found great homes for my pups but even so I still sometimes sit and think 'I wonder'! I wonder if they are being treated like my Flynny, if they are looked after like my own dogs are or if I have brought even just one of them into the world to suffer some kind of abuse - how would I know? I would never be told would I? I see pics and read stories so *think *they are all fine but how do I really know?
I did bring one pup into the world to suffer - he died at 14 months old in a road traffic accident - showing how well he was looked after. 

No, I have a conscience as far as my pups and my dogs are concerned, that's why I do the very best for my dogs. Unfortunately when you have a litter you have to trust that your judgement of the potential owner is correct, that they are the kind of people you think they are - but honestly you will never know - unless you live next door and have x ray vision!

I could never have your attitude towards breeding Blitz but then you are far more hardened by just being a farmer than this townie could ever be!


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## TerryTroy (Sep 13, 2012)

As you know i have a bitch Malamute and i would say breeding her did cross my mind!
But to be honest if i did it wouldnt be for the money,my reason would be to keep her bloodline going with good strong pedigree kc dogs which hopefully would be show dogs.
I however dont have the time,resources,facilites or the knowledge to do this,and with a dog that i,m unsure of her bones at present i wouldnt want to take a risk of passing that on and causing further issues to pups and new owners!

The other reason i considered a litter was for the health of my dog,as some stories say its best to let a bitch have one littler for cancer scares,i,m unsure if this is true or not?

I have enough probs with bringing up this pup let alone 4,5 etc of them.
The only pup that will enter my house next is a male mal if i can convince my other half!
"i,m a sucker for punishment" 

And no panic,nanook would of been sorted by then! :laugh: so no worries of puppies


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I have no desire whatsoever to breed !!


Chester was a singleton..so, i would imagine quite an expensive litter as mother had to have a c-section as they often do with single pups..


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

I am a little bit scared of saying this, I am planning to breed. I researched a lot into the Prague Ratter (Prazsky Krysarik) before even making enquiries about buying a pup. They are such fabulous little dogs and virtually unknown in the UK. We actually wanted a short haired thoroughly BREED STANDARD pup as our first bitch. Because we were dealing with overseas breeders we had several breeders who wouldn't even reply to our emails. Then we were in contact with someone who after a week we realised was very likely a puppy farmer so we backed out. We ended up buying a long haired pup, Abi, (which is considered a bit 'new' in Prague Ratter circles!) from a lovely breeder who is still in contact with us. We also made it quite clear that we needed a bitch of breeding standard. Our little love is so beautiful that STANDARD PK's don't even compare! We decided to buy a male dog sooner rather than later as Abi is a bit full on for our older dog and we thought it would be fairer on both of them if Abi had a younger dog to play with. The male will actually be OH's dog. He wanted the standard black and tan shorthaired but then we saw a 'blonde' long haired who looked so much like Abi that OH was smitten. We plan to mate Abi for the first time next year (preferably not with new pup). We *will * do all health checks before breeding. Our pups won't be KC reg as they are not recognised in this country. They do however come from champion lines with all dogs fully health checked. We will also offer an insurance package and if any of the bitches are on the small side we will insist on spaying. We are fully prepared to take back dogs from our litter(s) at any point in the future. We really want to do everything right. We *don't* want to be thought of as back yard breeders or puppy farmers. We don't think that a bitch needs to have a litter to be fulfilled. This is our 4th bitch in our 23 year dog owning lifetime, the first would never have entertained the idea. The 2nd and 3rd were spayed.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

.


> Instead of mandating narrow conformation ranges as demanded by the American Kennel Club for their breeds, the Old-Time Scotch Collie Association has written a breed standard that allows for the range of appearances found in a landrace breed. We recognize that the Old-Time Scotch Collie has always had a diversity of types and we want to maintain that genetic diversity by not trying to shove everybody into the same box.About the OTSCA | Old-Time Scotch Collie Association - http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=in...=1&F=P&P=22300


Old Time Scotch Collie ???? - I don't think so - look again at the photo's in the Gallery -

http://www.scotchcollie.org/breed/photo-gallery/

most are early pics of the Rough Collie and the English Shepherd - is this club seriously trying to tell us that 'Champion Christopher was not bred to the Rough Collie Standard ?

..and where are the photos of modern day examples of this 'breed' ?...


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Malmum, I'm slightly worried by your attitude.

You very often compare dogs with humans and appear to find it hard to separate the two species.

Dogs are dogs and don't have the thoughts behind having pups that humans have about babies. To dogs it's nature, they mate, they have pups. Pups move out of the nest and become independent. It isn't emotional for them, it's nature!

As for your personal experience with you husband and dogs, it's your business and not for an open forum. Besides we've all heard it many many times.

Move on....it's not doing you any good looking to the past all the time


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Luz said:


> I am a little bit scared of saying this, I am planning to breed. I researched a lot into the Prague Ratter (Prazsky Krysarik) before even making enquiries about buying a pup. They are such fabulous little dogs and virtually unknown in the UK. We actually wanted a short haired thoroughly BREED STANDARD pup as our first bitch. Because we were dealing with overseas breeders we had several breeders who wouldn't even reply to our emails. Then we were in contact with someone who after a week we realised was very likely a puppy farmer so we backed out. We ended up buying a long haired pup, Abi, (which is considered a bit 'new' in Prague Ratter circles!) from a lovely breeder who is still in contact with us. We also made it quite clear that we needed a bitch of breeding standard. Our little love is so beautiful that STANDARD PK's don't even compare! We decided to buy a male dog sooner rather than later as Abi is a bit full on for our older dog and we thought it would be fairer on both of them if Abi had a younger dog to play with. The male will actually be OH's dog. He wanted the standard black and tan shorthaired but then we saw a 'blonde' long haired who looked so much like Abi that OH was smitten. We plan to mate Abi for the first time next year (preferably not with new pup). We *will * do all health checks before breeding. Our pups won't be KC reg as they are not recognised in this country. They do however come from champion lines with all dogs fully health checked. We will also offer an insurance package and if any of the bitches are on the small side we will insist on spaying. We are fully prepared to take back dogs from our litter(s) at any point in the future. We really want to do everything right. We *don't* want to be thought of as back yard breeders or puppy farmers. We don't think that a bitch needs to have a litter to be fulfilled. This is our 4th bitch in our 23 year dog owning lifetime, the first would never have entertained the idea. The 2nd and 3rd were spayed.


You need to develop a thick skin if you plan to breed, people will criticise you just for breeding alone, you are in the minds of some, taking the life from dogs that could have been rescued by breeding more puppies. Some people just don't understand that there is no way every person who wants a dog, would rescue one. I was told by one person if they met me in the street they would spit on me for breeding the one litter I have.

If you're happy with yourself and can honestly stand back and be incredibly critical of everything you do, and you're happy with your breeding practices, then don't worry about what others think about you or your dogs. I've got several good friends I take advice from about breeding, and I stick to that close circle now, everyone has an opinion one way or the other, you end up with so many conflicting pieces of advice you end up doing *something* someone won't agree with!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Yes a good honest answer and one that I don't fully comprehend in some ways.
> 
> I don't think breeding should be about us having fun. I also know from my own experience that by not health testing my two I put Flynn through hell, it didn't hurt me physically but it did him, especially after the dislocation and subsequent further major op in the space of one week. A pup that dies after a C section and a dog that 'loves having pups' all a bit human focussed pleasures and not dog related at all really. I mean we all know our dogs love chocolate but they don't have it. Mother nature usually provides hormones to help with motherhood, a surge to encourage milk flow and instincts kick in because of them. That's not the dog 'loving it' that's nature. I know a woman who really does love having babies, she has just had her twelfth  ****ing mad I call it! The same as I call it mad to have pups because to us it's fun, it should be about animal welfare not fun. If you want fun go take some recreational drugs, potentially harm yourself not something else! Just my opinion!
> 
> ...


I was giving my opinion of why people breed their pet dogs and giving examples of what goes on around me and what I see.
I bred my first litter over 35 years ago and my last one 14 years ago. I have no intention of breeding again even though I do get asked to - but I did thoroughly enjoy it. And I think that those that breed from their pets enjoy it too. There is probably far less liklihood of the bitch dying from whelping than a lead breaking or dog getting loose and being run over.
Having said that I do not feel comfortable about a lot of people that do breed. They take no care and do not have the experience to deal with even the simplest of problems. I am fairly shocked by some of the questions that 'breeders' ask on here when the bitch is very close to whelping.
So though I was answering your question, Malmum, I am not totally comfortable with all pet breeding and am horrified by the amount of people I meet that assume that if you have a bitch you will breed to cover the cost of buying her in the first place. But that does seem to be another reason why some people breed.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> You need to develop a thick skin if you plan to breed, people will criticise you just for breeding alone, you are in the minds of some, taking the life from dogs that could have been rescued by breeding more puppies. Some people just don't understand that there is no way every person who wants a dog, would rescue one. I was told by one person if they met me in the street they would spit on me for breeding the one litter I have.


You know some very odd people!  I get more stick for not breeding!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Blitz said:


> ISo though I was answering your question, Malmum, I am not totally comfortable with all pet breeding and am horrified by *the amount of people I meet that assume that if you have a bitch you will breed to cover the cost of buying her in the first place*. But that does seem to be another reason why some people breed.


I've just quoted a section of your post Blitz I hope you don't mind.

I know several people who have bought pups to be told by the breeders that if they want to breed to re-coup the costs then they'll KC register the pups so they can get higher stud fees/ price for puppies.
Now I am asuming these people didn't go to the best breeders - but as a new puppy owner the person you trust most is the breeder of your puppy so I can see why many people think it's 'normal' to take a litter or 2 from your pet.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Fleur said:


> I've just quoted a section of your post Blitz I hope you don't mind.
> 
> I know several people who have bought pups to be told by the breeders that if they want to breed to re-coup the costs then they'll KC register the pups so they can get higher stud fees/ price for puppies.
> Now I am asuming these people didn't go to the best breeders - but as a new puppy owner the person you trust most is the breeder of your puppy so I can see why many people think it's 'normal' to take a litter or 2 from your pet.


I have liked your post, not because I like that people are breeding for that reason but because you back up what I have said.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> You know some very odd people!  I get more stick for not breeding!


I got a lot of stick for not breeding from Indie, but I chose to have her spayed because her elbows came back as a 2:1, so a 2 overall, and not recommended to breed from. The problem was, I wasn't aware that vets can and do muck up the plates, and the BVA don't always reject them. They did, in the first instance, reject the plates initially submitted, and then accepted the second set. It was the first time ever that the vets had done elbow plates, and I don't think they knew what they were doing. I tried to appeal but the BVA were having none of it, and I was too late in any case. I did think of going ahead anyway, and funnily enough was accepted to use a stud dog from a well known top kennel, but I stepped back and had a good long look at the situation, and decided that as Tau had much better scores/grades, I would spay Indie and *hope* that Tau matured as I wanted.

I was going to have Tau spayed, as the last few years have been very trying, and with renting a house I haven't had chance to do anything competition wise with her, just dabbled with the gundog stuff incuding taking her out on a shoot. A couple of friends who breed, including the OH persuaded me it wasn't too late, but that really this was the last chance with her, and if she didn't take to accept it wasn't going to happen, and in fact I did accept that she hadn't taken because we didn't get a tie. And then after lots of congratulations that she had taken, I found out that people were criticising my decision and having a go about it, including someone I'd enquired to possibly use their stud dog and they'd said yes!! So you really can't win, and some people will always be out to criticise no matter how much you put into it.

I really don't care, none of the people who criticised me actually know me or my dogs, its so easy to be an armchair critic from behind the anonymity of a computer screen!

I did actually get followed around when I lived in York, a guy wanted me to let him use his dog with Tau, a bargain pedigree without papers, as the bitch had had too many litters to register them all


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

I think there are a few reasons people want to breed. In dogs like wolfhounds ive seen people breed to keep a line going and give others the chance to introduce it. Some do it for a puppy to continue their own line or to add new blood when needed. in a breed like Klee Kais if most stopped breeding they would stop being a living breed at all not counting imports x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Darth said:


> Malmum, I'm slightly worried by your attitude.
> 
> You very often compare dogs with humans and appear to find it hard to separate the two species.
> 
> ...


Hey Darth - this happens to be MY thread so I'll post what I WANT!!

Don't like? then **** ***!!!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Charming x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Darth said:


> Charming x


Aren't you just!

Now where's my ignore button?


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Just exercising my freedom of speech.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and quite frankly if you can't take criticism you shouldn't post.

You choose to put your personal details on an open forum and then get nasty and foul mouthed because someone passes comment.

If I were you I'd finish the bottle and go to bed!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Fleur said:


> I know several people who have bought pups to be told by the breeders that if they want to breed to re-coup the costs then they'll KC register the pups so they can get higher stud fees/ price for puppies.
> Now I am asuming these people didn't go to the best breeders - but as a new puppy owner the person you trust most is the breeder of your puppy so I can see why many people think it's 'normal' to take a litter or 2 from your pet.


That is shameful  and of course you are right people will trust their breeder's advice which is why it is so bad! I wonder how many new owners actually go ahead and breed after being told that because many want a dog purely as a pet. Hopefully not many go on to breed!


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2012)

oh just get lost 'darth' 
if anyone wants to write about anything that has happened in their lives that is relevant to the thread (which it was) its their right to express that , if you didn't like the post you could have least 'overlooked' it , without having to resort to snide remarks.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Don't rise to it diablo - just a new comer with no forum etiquette! 

When ever I mention my pups I will ALWAYS state my ex as being at fault, I am ashamed of breeding two unhealth tested dogs and wouldn't want anyone new to the forum to think I advocate such practice, particularly as Flynns HD was so severe to need a double THR. My personal business is just that - MINE - and if I want to divulge it on a public forum it's my prerogative to do so - end of!

There are many personal experiences on general/health chat so what difference here? If this newbie don't like it then who really cares? Not me as it isn't even a poster I know - thankfully!


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

hugs to Malmum ((((001_wub))))


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks Luz - I don't honour folk like that with engaging in arguments, wouldn't lower myself  that's why they do it and it ruins threads!

I am certainly not answerable to someone like that, even more so as it doesn't know the support I try to offer others. Damned cheek to put it mildly. I just use the ignore option to save reading any other immature remarks in the future!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Mmm not exactly a newbie 

Just don't post as much as others, some of who just can't help themselves.

Even if it is drivel.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

wow what a nasty person you are darth!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

At least I'm not foul mouthed like some on here. 

Neither do I call other people names.

I'd have thought doing those things were far nastier than commenting on other posters drivel!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

catlove844 said:


> wow what a nasty person you are darth!


:thumbup:

Unnecessarily so!  Some troll in it's background perhaps!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I recall you suggested I was a troll on a previous thread when I gave a different opinion to yours.

And I also recall you were unnecessarily rude and foul mouthed then too.

You really shouldn't dish out what you can't take


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

In order to remove all the obscene and racist remarks by a now banned user, I have also had to remove some posts that had quoted him. Please if other users could keep it civil, so as not to close it permanently. It is an informative subject and discussion, so let's keep it that way. Thanks.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The time for breeding dogs is is not until all rescue centre's and pounds are empty, when no foundling needs a home should any puppy be brought into this world


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> The time for breeding dogs is is not until all rescue centre's and pounds are empty, when no foundling needs a home should any puppy be brought into this world


Who will be breeding the dogs in rescues though?

So it is ok for the puppy farmers to breed as rescues will take them up but breeds cannot maintain the lines they have worked hard to evolve through generations so puppy farmers can breed pups and shift them into rescues.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

To add to my above point, I saw 2 CKS in the vets today, one healthy lovely little boy full of life at 10, the other a young pup whose back legs could not hold her tiny frame up and she moved them in a wheel motion, I have never seen this before.  Their faces were just so different too.

You take away peoples right to breed the good lines and you will loose the health of the breeds for those who cannot hold their weight up. You need to preserve the good breeding.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> The time for breeding dogs is is not until all rescue centre's and pounds are empty, when no foundling needs a home should any puppy be brought into this world


i cant say i agree with that , rescue dogs arent suitable for everyone and not everyone can meet their sometimes 'stupid' criteria's such as ;

no all day workers
no children under 5
if you live out of their catchment areas
if you live in a house without a garden
if you live in a flat


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

If responsible breeders stopped breeding....that would open up the market for people who breed purely for money....their pockets would be lined even further.

I really dont like that people are made to feel guilty for wanting to take a new puppy from a responsible breeder....who can see parentage and train and mould the puppy to fit into their family from a clean slate.

Put the guilt trip on puppy farmers and breeders that breed for profit alone.....not those that are responsible and caring.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

chichi said:


> If responsible breeders stopped breeding....that would open up the market for people who breed purely for money....their pockets would be lined even further.


I think this really hits the nail on the head. Good, responsible breeders, and the people who who do their research and seek out these breeders to buy from, are not the problem.

I think the issue really needs tackling from both the supply and the demand side of things. Puppy farms absolutely need tackling but as long as there are people who either don't care or don't know about buying from responsible breeders, sub-standard breeders will keep on filling that demand.

Whilst puppy farms need dealing with as welfare concerns, I think when it comes to reducing the numbers of dogs being bred changing people's attitudes to dogs and buying dogs is likely to have more of an impact in the long run. Unfortunately changing people's attitudes is such a mammoth task it's nigh on impossible to even know where to begin.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> Unfortunately changing people's attitudes is such a mammoth task it's nigh on impossible to even know where to begin.


It has to be an initiative taken on by those involved in sheltering (RSPCA etc.) who get donations and have funds . . . toward education about responsible pet ownership. That is how you slowly shift societal thinking.

There are models out there that work. Bill Bruce in Calgary has utilized education programs along with licensing to reduce intake there. The no-kill movement in the USA (that is no-kill of health and adoptable not the 'warehousing' type some think of) also has many websites with educational suggestions - links to already developed age appropriate material.

CC


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## inwilddreams (Dec 16, 2013)

The only reason anyone would breed is to line their wallets. With the millions of homeless dogs that are euthanized EVERY SINGLE DAY, only a ignorant or sick and twisted person would be breeding. We can either solve the problem or be part of it, its your choice.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

inwilddreams said:


> The only reason anyone would breed is to line their wallets. With the millions of homeless dogs that are euthanized EVERY SINGLE DAY, only a ignorant or sick and twisted person would be breeding. We can either solve the problem or be part of it, its your choice.


You've have resurrected a very old post.

I'd just like to point out that if no one bred, then there would be no puppies. And eventually no dogs.

Ethical breeders expect to make no more money than to (hopefully) cover their costs. And if you don't believe that you do not appreciate the work, time and investment that goes into ethical breeding.

Assuming you do not want the dog population to die out, I suggest you do a limitless more research before making such sweeping statements.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

inwilddreams said:


> The only reason anyone would breed is to line their wallets. With the millions of homeless dogs that are euthanized EVERY SINGLE DAY, only a ignorant or sick and twisted person would be breeding. We can either solve the problem or be part of it, its your choice.


gotta love it when someone posts (with their very first post i add) that they want to see domestic dogs die out so no one in the future can ever have one as a pet... 
why not target commercial breeders/ puppy farmer/ those who breed 'just becasue' instead of lumping everyone who has ever bred into the same category?

inwilddreams... i take it you don't own a dog? if you do then why do you want it to be your last? not like pet-owning?


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