# Chinchilla Persian with no papers?



## Junaki (Jul 2, 2017)

I bought my first kitten a few weeks ago for £650. She is a Golden Chinchilla Persian but she came with no papers. I was given a little kitten pack with 4 weeks free insurance and an ancestry chart all the way up to her great grandparents. The ancestry chart tree thing does have the breeders name and address on it so they're not hiding where they're from or anything and we were shown the parents GCCF pedigree but I was wondering if this was uncommon practice and something to worry about? She is just a pet (not for shows or breeding) and I'll love and pamper her regardless but I wouldn't appreciate being misled after spending that much money. Is there a justifiable reason for not registering the kittens?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If either of the parents were registered on the non-active register no offspring can be registered. The non-active register is for all cats not intended for breeding for whatever reason. They may not be good enough for breeding or they may just have been sold as pets. I do not think there is any justifiable reason for not registering kittens if they are bred properly. After all they are not really pedigree kittens without the registration certificate.


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## Nicholas86 (Feb 5, 2015)

Junaki said:


> I bought my first kitten a few weeks ago for £650. She is a Golden Chinchilla Persian but she came with no papers. I was given a little kitten pack with 4 weeks free insurance and an ancestry chart all the way up to her great grandparents. The ancestry chart tree thing does have the breeders name and address on it so they're not hiding where they're from or anything and we were shown the parents GCCF pedigree but I was wondering if this was uncommon practice and something to worry about? She is just a pet (not for shows or breeding) and I'll love and pamper her regardless but I wouldn't appreciate being misled after spending that much money. Is there a justifiable reason for not registering the kittens?


I would go ask the breeder why.
£650 is alot of money for a unregistered Persian.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Nicholas86 said:


> I would go ask the breeder why.
> £650 is alot of money for a unregistered Persian.


I paid less for Tali, she is fully registered and has a strong show family history.

Tho pedigree cats in general cost less in my part of the country compared to other areas, I suppose the OP could be in London or somewhere like that


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## Nicholas86 (Feb 5, 2015)

Smuge said:


> I paid less for Tali, she is fully registered and has a strong show family history.
> 
> Tho pedigree cats in general cost less in my part of the country compared to other areas, I suppose the OP could be in London or somewhere like that


£650 is pet price fully non active registered in the UK.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

£650 is on the upper end of pet price, particularly for a kitten that comes without a registration document. I would be asking the breeder a lot of questions and ringing GCCF to see if the "breeder" has a registered prefix with them


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I am not sure a prefix is relevant here but the office may be able to say if the parents are on the active register. (It may be sensitive data I suppose.) The GCCF has no power over people who choose not to register their cats with them.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

A prefix would be helpful to understand why the kitten has not been registered - either they don't have one or they are on the suspension list. Worth an ask anyway, as part of the whole picture.

The office can give out information as to whether the cats are on the active register, yes. I have asked the question about a few different cats, I can provide the cat's name but they can't give any information out beyond yes or no to active.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> A prefix would be helpful to understand why the kitten has not been registered - either they don't have one or they are on the suspension list. Worth an ask anyway, as part of the whole picture.
> 
> The office can give out information as to whether the cats are on the active register, yes. I have asked the question about a few different cats, I can provide the cat's name but they can't give any information out beyond yes or no to active.


Those who are suspended are named. Prefix applications are falling and more breeders are registering litters using an administrative prefix, which is not sinister in itself.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

It could be the registrations hadn't come through in time. I have had two of my three pedigrees with their breeders pedigree and I got sent through their official certified pedigree a week after I got them.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I am not sure a prefix is relevant here but the office may be able to say if the parents are on the active register. (It may be sensitive data I suppose.) The GCCF has no power over people who choose not to register their cats with them.


*if* the parents are both registered active with the GCCF then an unregistered kitten should be supplied with the paperwork for the new owner to register it themselves, and they could register it active. I would be astonished if this kitten could be registered.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> *if* the parents are both registered active with the GCCF then an unregistered kitten should be supplied with the paperwork for the new owner to register it themselves, and they could register it active. I would be astonished if this kitten could be registered.


I agree. I was simply stating the rules. I am not sure about the position regarding registering kittens who have not been declared.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Unlike FIFe where all offspring from FIFe registered Dams, GCCF and TICA do not have the same requirement. So I will have to register my dams kittens with FIFe but I do not have to register or even declare kittens with TICA of GCCF as mine are registered with all 3 registrys.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I agree. I was simply stating the rules. I am not sure about the position regarding registering kittens who have not been declared.


See Rule 3 especially 3c in:

https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/...une Web edition.pdf?ver=2017-06-15-103104-850


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## Junaki (Jul 2, 2017)

Okay, I've emailed the breeder today about this. I thought it was a bit strange. Also I'm from the Midlands but I travelled 1 hour or so north to collect Princess.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Unfortunately the breeding of cats on the non-active register is not within the control of the GCCF. Their regulations can only apply to offspring of active register cats.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Unfortunately the breeding of cats on the non-active register is not within the control of the GCCF. Their regulations can only apply to offspring of active register cats.


Indeed, and as I said previously, "_I would be astonished if this kitten could be registered_."


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

My comment was simply a way of crossing something a list. I agree that admin prefixes are not sinister in itself, only that if it were me, I would find it helpful to know whether the parents of the kitten were active registered or not, as that would clear up whether they're breeding from non-active or active. It's simply another line of enquiry that would do no harm to investigate, and OP may not have known it was possible to investigate this way.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Junaki said:


> I bought my first kitten a few weeks ago for £650. She is a Golden Chinchilla Persian but she came with no papers. I was given a little kitten pack with 4 weeks free insurance and an ancestry chart all the way up to her great grandparents. The ancestry chart tree thing does have the breeders name and address on it so they're not hiding where they're from or anything and we were shown the parents GCCF pedigree but I was wondering if this was uncommon practice and something to worry about? She is just a pet (not for shows or breeding) and I'll love and pamper her regardless but I wouldn't appreciate being misled after spending that much money. Is there a justifiable reason for not registering the kittens?


I don't charge that much for my Chinchilla pets and mine come registered, vaccinated, chipped and neutered! Personally I don't think that there is any justifiable reason not to register kittens. Unfortunately Chinchillas are particularly favoured by BYBs and there are loads of them operating around the UK, particularly the Midlands and Manchester areas. No proper breeder will allow a kitten to go before 12 weeks (I think that under GCCF the rule is 13 weeks now). So if your kitten was younger than this, which I seem to recall from a previous post it was, and isn't vaccinated then you've unfortunately probably bought your kitten from a BYB


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## Junaki (Jul 2, 2017)

Ugh, I feel so naive and now looking back at it (with all the information provided by you guys) it has become evident as stated by @Tigermoon that they seem to be BYB. I emailed them and they replied by saying unfortunately, it would not be possible to register her. Oh well, at least she's in good hands now and now I can be more careful with any future purchases. I'm kind of angry that I spent so much for so less (not talking about the kitty, talking about the lack of registration and vaccinations)


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## Junaki (Jul 2, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> My comment was simply a way of crossing something a list. I agree that admin prefixes are not sinister in itself, only that if it were me, I would find it helpful to know whether the parents of the kitten were active registered or not, as that would clear up whether they're breeding from non-active or active. It's simply another line of enquiry that would do no harm to investigate, and OP may not have known it was possible to investigate this way.


Would it be worth it to investigate? If so, how should I go about doing this?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Junaki said:


> Ugh, I feel so naive and now looking back at it (with all the information provided by you guys) it has become evident as stated by @Tigermoon that they seem to be BYB. I emailed them and they replied by saying unfortunately, it would not be possible to register her. Oh well, at least she's in good hands now and now I can be more careful with any future purchases. I'm kind of angry that I spent so much for so less (not talking about the kitty, talking about the lack of registration and vaccinations)


Ho dear me, the "it would not be possible to register her" comment is almost certainly because the parents themselves are not registered or are registered not for breeding. You could try ringing the GCCF and ask the Longhair registrar if you have the cats full names.

Whats done is done, you have got your kitten now and fingers crossed, hopefully all will be well ... however I would be tempted to test her for PKD & PRA. You can do this yourself or via your vet by taking a swab from the kittens mouth and sending it to Langford Veterinary Diagnostic Lab http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagn...neral-info-breeders/list-feline-genetic-tests. It will cost you about £50ish. Hopefully they will come back negative, but if they are positive then forewarned is forearmed.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Junaki said:


> Would it be worth it to investigate? If so, how should I go about doing this?


You can ring the GCCF office and explain that you've a kitten with no registration document, from GCCF registered cats, and you want to check if the parents are active or non-active.

If active, and the breeder has a prefix, you might be able to follow this up if they are a member of a GCCF cat club, and possibly lodge a complaint.

It is unlikely that this will prove fruitful, I suspect that this person is breeding from what are meant to be pet cats which is why you have no registration document. It may be helpful for you to know either way for peace of mind, even if you can't take it further


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If the cats are on the active register (unlikely) the breeder must provide the new owner with a mating certificate containing all the details necessary to register the kitten if it is being sold unregistered.


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## Junaki (Jul 2, 2017)

Fortunately, the parents were PKD negative (or so the letter they showed us said they were) and I do have the names of the parents, the grandparents and great grandparents of the kitten. Lodging a complain with the GCCF does seem an awful lot of effort, especially since she will be neutered within a few months and be our indoor pet.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Junaki said:


> Fortunately, the parents were PKD negative (or so the letter they showed us said they were) and I do have the names of the parents, the grandparents and great grandparents of the kitten. Lodging a complain with the GCCF does seem an awful lot of effort, especially since she will be neutered within a few months and be our indoor pet.


It's up to you, if it were me I would follow it up out of principle. You have been completely diddled, you have no proof that the paper you were given does indeed prove your cat's ancestry


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## Junaki (Jul 2, 2017)

Slightly confused about which MC crosses you're referring to but I think I will follow it up with the GCCF as it is strange. 

As for the PKD test, Princess has a vet appointment for her second vaccination on Monday so I'll raise the issue with the vet.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Apologies, I'm getting muddled between two threads and mistook you for another poster. My mistake entirely. 

Vets can't PKD test so you will need to order a test from Langford's test centre, swab her mush (the vet may need to do this), and send it back to Langford's who will then test and send results back to you.


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## Junaki (Jul 2, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Apologies, I'm getting muddled between two threads and mistook you for another poster. My mistake entirely.
> 
> Vets can't PKD test so you will need to order a test from Langford's test centre, swab her mush (the vet may need to do this), and send it back to Langford's who will then test and send results back to you.


Oh, I see. I'll order the swabs immediately. Thank you for the clarification.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Junaki said:


> Fortunately, the parents were PKD negative (or so the letter they showed us said they were


I'm afraid that I would not trust a 'letter' that you were shown by these people. I would do it myself to be sure.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Rufus15 said:


> It's up to you, if it were me I would follow it up out of principle. You have been completely diddled, you have no proof that the paper you were given does indeed prove your cat's ancestry


I'm not sure where the OP would go with following it up out of principle. If someone is choosing to breed outwith GCCF rules there's nothing to stop them and they're doing nothing wrong unless they claimed the kitten was (or could be). GCCF registered. That would be misrepresentation. Even if any ad said the parents were registered pedigrees that would still be true if they were on the non active register or registered elsewhere.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

havoc said:


> I'm not sure where the OP would go with following it up out of principle. If someone is choosing to breed outwith GCCF rules there's nothing to stop them and they're doing nothing wrong unless they claimed the kitten was (or could be). GCCF registered. That would be misrepresentation. Even if any ad said the parents were registered pedigrees that would still be true if they were on the non active register or registered elsewhere.


I did already say that it was likely to be fruitless and wouldn't be able to be taken further, and said that it would only be for personal peace of mind.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

What is it you suggest they follow up and where? I go along with it worth doing anything for peace of mind but I don't understand what you're proposing.


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