# So disappointed!



## lizward

Fiona's kittens were born last night. Fiona is a third generation Tiffanie and I was desperately hoping for my fourth generation - two people I have sold girls to for breeding have now had a fourth generation from my cats, also I was desperate to prove Basil, and I still haven't done either. Yes, still! Two of the kittens are black, which is not possible from that mating, they have to be Danny's. Danny is an outcross for my Burmese, he was eight months old at the time, living in the house, and had not shown any interest in girls. He is not a valid outcross for Asians, and even if he was, you cannot outcross a third generation which is not yet registerable as a full Asian to another breed. 

Katie is due any day and of course now I am thinking the same might apply there, hopefully it will be obvious whose kittens they are, but if not (there is some possible overlap) I might have to resort to DNA testing for paternity.

Mitzi has been yelling for two weeks and is living with Nigel. Nigel has done nothing (Nigel x Mitzi would be another way to get my fourth generation), except that yesterday he attacked her, seemingly an unprovoked attack and he has always been such a gentle boy before. If that happens again she is not going to be able to be left with him and since she is bullied by everyone else that is going to make life very difficult. In desperation I put her with Basil a couple of times recently, but he doesn't seem to have succeeded there either.

Basil has a visitor who is clearly in full call and so far he has only growled and hissed at her.

So I have a litter of pretty 3/4 pedigrees, two stud cats (22 months and 13 months) who appear to be completely incompetent, and a ten month old who is fully functional but whom I have no work for until next year. And it looks as if I'm not going to get my fourth generation this year either.

I feel gutted today and almost on the point of giving up!

Liz


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## billyboysmammy

awww liz, that must be so dissapointing and a blimmin nightmare! Gutted for you x

I know you joked about the 8mo kitten before, but omfg the little tinker!!!! 

Hugs, i dont know what else to say 
xx


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## havoc

It must seem like the end of the world now but there will be a silver lining somewhere. Every time something has pushed me to the edge of giving up something good has come out of it if I've let it.


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## lymorelynn

Oh dear , what a nightmare! I'm sure you'll carry on but it must be so devastating that all that planning and waiting has been in vain. I do hope that your expected litter from Katie is all that you hope it to be.


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## Izzie999

lizward said:


> Fiona's kittens were born last night. Fiona is a third generation Tiffanie and I was desperately hoping for my fourth generation - two people I have sold girls to for breeding have now had a fourth generation from my cats, also I was desperate to prove Basil, and I still haven't done either. Yes, still! Two of the kittens are black, which is not possible from that mating, they have to be Danny's. Danny is an outcross for my Burmese, he was eight months old at the time, living in the house, and had not shown any interest in girls. He is not a valid outcross for Asians, and even if he was, you cannot outcross a third generation which is not yet registerable as a full Asian to another breed.
> 
> Katie is due any day and of course now I am thinking the same might apply there, hopefully it will be obvious whose kittens they are, but if not (there is some possible overlap) I might have to resort to DNA testing for paternity.
> 
> Mitzi has been yelling for two weeks and is living with Nigel. Nigel has done nothing (Nigel x Mitzi would be another way to get my fourth generation), except that yesterday he attacked her, seemingly an unprovoked attack and he has always been such a gentle boy before. If that happens again she is not going to be able to be left with him and since she is bullied by everyone else that is going to make life very difficult. In desperation I put her with Basil a couple of times recently, but he doesn't seem to have succeeded there either.
> 
> Basil has a visitor who is clearly in full call and so far he has only growled and hissed at her.
> 
> So I have a litter of pretty 3/4 pedigrees, two stud cats (22 months and 13 months) who appear to be completely incompetent, and a ten month old who is fully functional but whom I have no work for until next year. And it looks as if I'm not going to get my fourth generation this year either.
> 
> I feel gutted today and almost on the point of giving up!
> 
> Liz


Don't give up Liz, I am sorry to hear your problems today.Don't lose heart though you will get there in the end Im sure.

Izzie


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## colliemerles

i agree with izzie , dont give up, you WILL get there in the end, xxxxxxxxx:thumbup:


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## Honeybunch

aww that must be frustrating for you can imagine how you must be feeling but dont give up Im sure all will be well in the end. What a little devil yr 8 month kitten is! Hope the babies are all healthy and mum doing well x


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## lizward

The first baby was breech and took an awfully long time to come out, he took a couple of breaths but that was it, I couldn't revive him despite trying for some time. The next three came out really quickly but Fiona didn't know what to do with the sacs so I had to break them all. Fortunately she had worked it out by the time she had the fifth one as that was born after I thought she had finished and went to bed. So we have four kittens - black shaded silver, blue shaded and blue girls and a blue boy, they will not exactly be difficult to find homes for and Fiona of course is delighted with them.

Liz


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## Milly22

I like the sound of the black/blue shaded silver ones. Sorry how things have turned out. Maybe next time.


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## colliemerles

can we have pictures of them when your not to busy,......................pretty please.........................


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## Philski

Sorry to hear it, and good luck for next time around.

And I'm loving that you have a cat called Nigel :lol:


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## lizward

Update - and you can all call me an idiot if you like.

The very next day, Katie had just one kitten, black shaded silver.

Now, I was totally convinced that I knew which of the two black shaded silvers was which (they were all in together), and I was bitterly disappointed because the one I was convinced was Katie's, a girl, developed long hair, which would have been next to impossible if Basil was the father.

Eventually, because I was so convinced that Basil had properly mated with Katie, and because Katie's (which was a boy) was so very like Basil in his character, desperately hoping that I just might have mixed the two kittens up, I sent off swabs to Australia for DNA testing. Let any who consider this route be warned, it takes far longer than you expect it to, the kittens are 4.5 months now and I am still awaiting the result!

Just a couple of days ago it occurred to me, perhaps I emailed some group, or posted somewhere, and said what gender the kittens were. So I looked through the posts here and yes, I said that Fiona had a black shaded silver girl.

So, unless I got the gender wrong (not totally impossible at birth, I see I got the gender of one of the blue ones wrong), if Fiona's was a girl, the boy must have been Katie's, in which case he could be Basil's, and if he is, I have just wasted four DNA test fees. 

But of course now I have got to wait anyway because there is certainly no point in having come so far and spent so much and then not waiting for the result.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

liz


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## Taylorbaby

oh no lol!!!

I used a place in america for colour dna came back pretty quick, maybe another place woulod be quicker?
hope it works out the way you want!!


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## LittleStar2010

Pinmoore Labs (in the UK) also do paternity / colour testing for cats. Have a look on pages 15-17. I've used them previously to test my queen for HCM before I bred her and they emailed her results in under a week. 

http://www.palsvetlab.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/2010pricelist.pdf


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## lizward

Thanks - worth remembering certainly. In this case, though, it would have been about double the price 

Liz


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## Taylorbaby

thats £40 cheaper than going to my vets, might give it a try


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## ChinaBlue

Langford Labs do it in Bristol
Coat Colour Guide | Diagnostic Services | haematology | biochemistry | bacteriology | virology | Langford Veterinary Services


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## Amethyst

Have I read this correctly? You are allowing two entire male cats access to an in season female? And are then disappointed when the one you don't want to father the kittens does :confused1:


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## Tje

Amethyst said:


> Have I read this correctly? You are allowing two entire male cats access to an in season female? And are then disappointed when the one you don't want to father the kittens does :confused1:


or maybe the queen in question are one of Liz's queens with free access to the great outdoors. I know nothing of breeding matters... but enough to know any un-neutered female cat could get pregnant by any tom (dick or harry) if they are allowed outdoors.


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## Aurelia

Tips for avoiding this situation:

Keep entire males away from entire females at all times, even in winter months. As a breeder you should know that females do occasionally call during winter. If they are in the same proximity as males, they may not even appear to call, as a breeder you should know that females in a males company sometimes feel the actual 'call' to be unnecessary.

When you want to breed a specific queen with a specific male after the the correct testing has been done to ensure both are in tip top condition, and are not going to pass of genetic condition ... then and only then put the two together, away from the access of other males/females.

I am astounded at your lazy breeding Liz, I really am. You claim to be an experienced breeder. You actually do a fantastic job of proving my saying right 'Just because you're experienced, doesn't mean you do it right'.


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## mummyxofx2

Aurelia said:


> I am astounded at your lazy breeding Liz, I really am. You claim to be an experienced breeder. You actually do a fantastic job of proving my saying right 'Just because you're experienced, doesn't mean you do it right'.


that was abit nasty......


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## Tje

mummyxofx2 said:


> that was abit nasty......


Why is it nasty?

No responsible cat owner, let alone breeder, would allow unneutered adult females free access to the outdoors.

This is not a dig at you mummyof2, you were misled by a shelter to believe your female was neutered.

Liz is perfectly aware the queens she lets roam free are unneutered.

To say this is unusual in the breeding world is putting it mildy. I have never even heard of breeders doing this.


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## lizward

Amethyst said:


> Have I read this correctly? You are allowing two entire male cats access to an in season female? And are then disappointed when the one you don't want to father the kittens does :confused1:


It wasn't quite like that. I had a half-grown boy in the house at the time. I thought I made that clear in the first post. These things do happen you know and the only way to totally remove the possibility is to pen any boy you want to keep from the time he is about four months old, or pen the girls.

Liz


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## lizward

Tje said:


> or maybe the queen in question are one of Liz's queens with free access to the great outdoors. I know nothing of breeding matters... but enough to know any un-neutered female cat could get pregnant by any tom (dick or harry) if they are allowed outdoors.


Only if they are allowed outside when they are actually calling, and they are not. Katie was in the house and mated with Basil who was also living in the house at the time. Basil was supposed to be mating with Fiona but didn't do the job. Danny, being only 7 months old at the time the kittens were conceived and having shown no interest in girls, was still living in the house. That's all. I don't pen my boys at seven months unless it is absolutely unavoidable.

When Fiona's kittens emerged it was immediately obvious that they were not Basil's. Katie's could have been Basil's and that is what I hope the DNA test result is about to tell me.

Liz


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## lizward

Aurelia, when I have reached your vast level of experience I shall no doubt do things differently.

Liz


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## Amethyst

lizward said:


> It wasn't quite like that. I had a half-grown boy in the house at the time. I thought I made that clear in the first post. These things do happen you know and the only way to totally remove the possibility is to pen any boy you want to keep from the time he is about four months old, or pen the girls.
> 
> Liz


Half grown? He was 8 months old, as someone who breeds cats, surely you were aware he was more than likely to be fertile by that age  In fact you must know that going on what you have written above ...

I would have thought any responsible and serious cat breeder would go to any length not to take necessary precautions, to prevent accidental breeding. Not have such a gung ho approach. Seriously, I would not like to buy a cat from someone like you, if queens and toms are allowed to run freely together, how can you guarantee the pedigree of any of your cats :eek6:


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## lizward

Amethyst said:


> Half grown? He was 8 months old, as someone who breeds cats, surely you were aware he was more than likely to be fertile by that age  In fact you must know that going on what you have written above ...
> 
> I would have thought any responsible and serious cat breeder would go to any length not to take necessary precautions, to prevent accidental breeding. Not have such a gung ho approach. Seriously, I would not like to buy a cat from someone like you, if queens and toms are allowed to run freely together, how can you guarantee the pedigree of any of your cats :eek6:


Being fertile is not the same thing as being interested, if the male won't do the job, or can't work out how to do it, it doesn't help that he is fertile! I don't think I've ever had a boy who has functioned until he's been at least a year old. I rather envy these people who have boys trying it on at five months, a boy like that would be esepcially useful if you need to move on through the generations quickly.

As for guaranteeing the pedigree, in this case obviously I couldn't, which is why I have spent a horrible amount of money on DNA testing.

Liz


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## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Being fertile is not the same thing as being interested, if the male won't do the job, or can't work out how to do it, it doesn't help that he is fertile! I don't think I've ever had a boy who has functioned until he's been at least a year old. *I rather envy these people who have boys trying it on at five months, a boy like that would be esepcially useful if you need to move on through the generations quickly.*
> As for guaranteeing the pedigree, in this case obviously I couldn't, which is why I have spent a horrible amount of money on DNA testing.
> 
> Liz


Liz read the bolded bit to yourself. Then maybe you will see how utterly ridiculous your argument is for being so ... so ...ugh!

Amethyst ~ I don't think she can guarentee the pedigrees are correct. I certainly wouldn't trust them anyway.

Liz how many cross breed litters have you had? This alone is just pure irresponsible, period! You KNOW females don't always call in the presence of a male.

Also how the heck did you miss the young one mating your queen/s, they are in your house right?

As for your comment about _my_ vast experience? :lol::lol: I know one thing Liz I will never ever become a breeder like you.


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## Tje

So Lizward, its outside the realms of possibility that a unneutered female cat could go outdoors at 9am, come back at 6pm, and go into heat in that period of time? Would it be outside the realms of possibility that you could miss a female calling? Is it outside the realms of possibility that a young (unneutered) male in the home could sexually mature and mate with an unneutered female without you noticing it? Scrap that last one, I think we know the answer to that one.

According to all the literature I have ever read, none of these things are *unusual*, let alone outside the realms of possibility.

I know many breeders dont put young males out in the stud accommodation before they are fully matured sexually and ready to get down to work. But I thought that was why responsible breeders did some form of separation, like when the males get around to 5 months old or so (depending on the breed and the age they generally become sexually active) they put the male upstairs and leave the girls downstairs, or like my friend will do pretty soon with her new male hell get the kitchen, dining room and downstairs hall, and the girls will get their usual run of the house. The few neuters they have will keep the young boy company, and her and her hubbys laptops will move from the living room to the dining room. I doubt she will put the boy into the stud accommodation before hes around a year old unless he starts to spray or becomes over amorous. This strikes me as what a breeder should do *take responsible precautionary measures*. Not just leave it down to something that amounts to little more than pot-luck (a la, "never had a male who functioned before he was a year old).

I am still astounded and shocked you are so (apparently) laid back with all this. Frankly, youre playing with fire.

I thought separation of potentially viable cats was the first rule of cat breeding. Well, it probably is but just with breeders a lot less carelessly lackadaisical than you are!


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## lauren001

I think you will find many cat breeders are not as cut and dried in their practices as "good practice" dictates.

The only way to have complete control is to house all cats in their own pen in a professional cattery set up. 
Infection is minimised and the chances of escape slim and the chances of mismating zero. However many think it cruel to the cats and do not want "outdoor raised" kittens.
Many people do not like to see cats in solitary confinement with little human/other cat contact, so want their kittens "home reared" and the cats able to interact with others and the kittens raised indoors. In this situation, infection can be a problem, escape out the front door a possibility and the chances of mismating can be high.

It seems that people want their cake and eat it, they want "home raised" animals, but don't want the downsides that breeding any animal purely in a home brings.

Many breeders juggle home and outside pens and that can work very well. However young animals kept for a program can pose difficulties, too young for total pen life or solitary confinement in their own room, as they are still technically kittens, and too old to not be at risk of pregnancy or getting others pregnant.

Mismating is not what any breeder would want but with DNA testing it is possible now to remedy the situation. 
Liz has done the DNA which is more than some breeders would do in her situation, some would have just kept schtum. 
I have heard of similar tales of studs/young males running about with young females/queens and the sires "assumed".
Hence the unreliable pedigrees that some find that they must have, when kittens that are genetically "impossible" are born.


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## Aurelia

I totally understand what you're saying Lauren, this is why I won't be breeding more than 2 litters a year (more likely one), and I won't ever own my own stud. I couldn't do it, as I love my girls too much to segregate them like that. Plus it's better for the girls too IMO.

If (and this is my opinion) a breeder is not capable of doing things right, removing every possible risk without it being damaging to any cat they own ... they shouldn't be breeding.

My mentor does a mixture of outdoor penning and home rearing. She does a fantastic job of it. But I still wouldn't choose this route for my girls


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## Tje

Lauren, I do think theres a middle ground here. I know 2 breeders who achieve that happy middle ground perfectly.

First they are not over crowded with breeding queens. Secondly, they rarely or never have more than 1 litter at a time. Thirdly, they do have sufficient space to quarantine all pets if this is necessary, which I am always harping on about in here. 

I dont even think those of us with two pet cats, ever have complete control. But we can take reasonable precautionary measures to ensure we have a reasonable amount of control by ensuring we have no over crowding, and only have as many cats as our home comfortably allows. This where IMO many breeders go badly wrong. They overcrowd. 

If you only have a (say) 3 queens, then when you get that young immature boy, you should be able to restrict his access with the measures I mentioned above, still allowing him all the benefits of socialization and a home environment, with none of the risks of an oops litter. 

I think we have far too many people who live in normal 3 bedroom houses (like I myself do) but they want to run a massive breeding operation, with multiple studs and queens. Thats just asking for trouble. Unless as you say, you cage, which I would never support (anymore than I would support cluttered with cats houses type of breeding operations). 

I know enough breeders do this, they do have wayyy too many cats . would I buy from them, no I certainly wouldnt. Heck I dont even like shed at the bottom of the garden studs, let alone a house cluttered with cats. 

A good responsible breeder takes into account the size of their home, and works within those confines so they dont end up with too many cats. 

So I do think you can have home reared and all the other plusses that come with that, without having to resort to pens/cages and keeping them outdoors. You just have to be realistic and not take on too many cats in the first place, and not breed too many litters 

In my current home I dont think I could possibly have more than 3 queens -- tops. I couldnt/wouldnt have a stud as I dont have a home that would allow me to constantly be around him. The only option I would have for a stud is the bottom of the garden variety, and no matter how well heated and insulated I could make his accommodations, I simply couldnt do that as cats for me are pets first and foremost, and pets live in my home, not my garden. 

Having said all that. I dont breed and never have. But I am veryyyyyy choosey about the breeders (and their homes) of my own two cats. Both tick all my boxes. No overcrowding, clean, well socialized, no caging, no clutter, sufficient space to quarantine (to name but a few of my demands on breeders, lol)


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## Amethyst

lauren001 said:


> It seems that people want their cake and eat it, they want "home raised" animals, but don't want the downsides that breeding any animal purely in a home brings.
> 
> Mismating is not what any breeder would want but with DNA testing it is possible now to remedy the situation.


I don't think it is at all about wanting to have our cake and eat it, it is simply about wanting to be able to purchase a kitten that has been responsibly bred and whose parentage we can be happy about. I don't know about other would be cat owners, but I don't want to buy from a breeder who needs to DNA test their kittens because they don't know which of their Tom cats fathered the litter 

Personally I don't think a DNA test DOES remedy the situation. Yes, it may prove parentage, but their is still the possibility that the breeder has an unplanned and unwanted litter of crossbred kittens on their hands .... And heaven knows rescues are full of crossbreed kits 

I am a little surprised at your attitude considering your you seem to be against puppy farming and presumably any shoddy dog breeding. Would you feel the same if this was a post about a dog breeder who was letting a young entire adult male run freely with breeding bitches? And as a result was producing crosssbred puppies :confused1:


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## billyboysmammy

I would also say that the middle ground is fairly reasonably achieved, and most breeders own a neuter or two (well within a few years of breeding they do), who then acts as companion for any indoor studs (and outdoors for that matter).


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## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Amethyst ~ I don't think she can guarentee the pedigrees are correct. I certainly wouldn't trust them anyway.


That's fine, Aurelia, I am sure you won't be buying one.



> Liz how many cross breed litters have you had?


Can't remember. I have been breeding for 18 years and I don't register accidents.



> Also how the heck did you miss the young one mating your queen/s, they are in your house right?


Yes they are. No idea. I suppose it's possible that I have got the mother's colour wrong and that actually they are Basil's, but I think it's highly unlikely. The DNA results will tell all.



> As for your comment about _my_ vast experience? :lol::lol: I know one thing Liz I will never ever become a breeder like you.


I'm sure you won't.

Liz


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## lizward

Tje said:


> Frankly, youre playing with fire.


Drama queen!  What is the worst case scenario? A litter with the wrong sire or mixed sires, and the expense of DNA testing to unravel it. Hardly the end of the world, even if it seems very disappointing at the time as, obviously, it did to me back in June. If that was the worst thing that ever happened to me I would be a very fortunate person indeed!

Liz


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## lizward

Thank you, Lauren.

According to the labs that do the testing (yes admittedly they have an axe to grind), about 10% of pedigrees are in fact incorrect. It doesn't take a lot to get it wrong after all, two Mums sharing two litters would be quite enough to confuse matters. In fact, it would be very good practice for all cats that are sold for breeding, to be sold with proof of parentage based on a DNA test linked to a microchip number. I don't imagine that will happen in a hurry though.

Liz


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## Tje

lizward said:


> Drama queen!  Liz


jesus Liz, I am gald you can see the humour in this.... I would literally curl up and die. I can laugh at a lot of things, but not this. Well I can, but that's only because I know I am not buying from you. LOL!! I would be having kittens right now myself if you had sold me a kitten in the past!!

I know on the big scale of things, well it sure aint a 9-11 scale disaster , but as a breeder, it can't do your reputation any good at all. Let alone your whole breeding program. I mean isn't it crucial/critical to know which kitten belongs to which mother and which stud fathered which litter? Are these not just basic requirements?


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## lizward

Amethyst said:


> Personally I don't think a DNA test DOES remedy the situation. Yes, it may prove parentage, but their is still the possibility that the breeder has an unplanned and unwanted litter of crossbred kittens on their hands .... And heaven knows rescues are full of crossbreed kits


Are they really full of first cross kittens? I rather doubt it somehow. EVERY litter we breed means a certain number of kittens we have to find homes for. If we pretend that by breeding AT ALL we are somehow not adding to the number of cats in rescue, we are simply kidding ourselves.

Liz


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## Tje

Liz, a question... do your buyers know how laid back you are? I mean are you open about queens going outside... getting which kitten belongs to which mum muddled up? About not knowing who exactly the father is?


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## lizward

Tje said:


> I am gald you can see the humour in this.... I would literally curl up and die.


Yes well, as I said previously, I am not into having rows on forums.



> know on the big scale of things, well it sure aint a 9-11 scale disaster , but as a breeder, it can't do your reputation any good at all.


Seriously, there are only two things I want to have a reputation for as a breeder. 1. being scrupulously honest and 2. being helpful to newcomers



> I mean isn't it crucial/critical to know which kitten belongs to which mother and which stud fathered which litter? Are these not just basic requirements?


Yes, that is why I have paid for the DNA testing and have not sold the kittens yet even though they are nearly five months old. They are very pretty, very affectionate, and would have been very easy to sell under false pretences and, if I had sold them as unregistered pets, no-one would ever have known. But that would not be honest.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy

I do feel I should comment on the rescue situation here in the uk.

Whilst its true we get many crossbreeds and pedigrees, the majority are still moggies. Sadly there seems to be a quickly growing number of BSH, and ragdoll crosses in this area in the last 12mo. However within those moggies the last 10 years has seen a MASSIVE increase in the dilutes and pointed cats, along with the more rare colours. 

Blue cats are now so common as to appear standard now, then we have the chocolates/seals, black silver tabbies, shadeds, smokes, lilacs, creams, pointeds, along with some of the more rare tabby patterns (ticked, spotted etc). 

All of which points to the fact that more people have been allowing pedigrees to mix with the moggie population. Gone are the days when a blue or cream were rare indeed.

EDIT: when i say rare, i mean traditionally rare in moggies, and known for being a posh puss colour/pattern.


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## lizward

Tje said:


> Liz, a question... do your buyers know how laid back you are? I mean are you open about queens going outside... getting which kitten belongs to which mum muddled up? About not knowing who exactly the father is?


I have *never *sold as a registered pedigree any kitten where I was uncertain about the parentage. As for knowing that some of my girls go outside, yes, any buyer who comes here will see that. It isn't breaking any rule of any organisation I belong to and it isn't breaking any terms of any contract I have signed, nor of any verbal agreement I have made. The risk is entirely mine and I honestly don't see why it should offend anyone else.

Liz


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## Tje

lizward said:


> If we pretend that by breeding AT ALL we are somehow not adding to the number of cats in rescue, we are simply kidding ourselves.


yeah and you are really kidding yourself Liz if you think pedigree bred cats are a big problem in shelters. I'm not saying we never see a pedigree come through our shelter, we do. But compared to the amount of cats in shelters the percentage of peds are tiny! Even when compared percentage wise of the total cat population (pedigree to moggy) way more moggys get dumped than peds. And peds are the easiest by far to rehome. I could rehome a nice looking ped with a bad temper, a peeing problem and a special diet in a 10th of the time it will take me to rehome the best natured, healthiest, litter trained moggy. I wish it wasn't this way, but it is.

(and yes Liz, before you ask... I have worked in shelters in the UK, and my sister still does!! and heyyyy I even get out the front door now and again too, lol, well when they take the straight jacket off and my meds are kicking in)


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## lizward

billyboysmammy said:


> Blue cats are now so common as to appear standard now, then we have the chocolates/seals, black silver tabbies, shadeds, smokes, lilacs, creams, pointeds, along with some of the more rare tabby patterns (ticked, spotted etc).
> 
> All of which points to the fact that more people have been allowing pedigrees to mix with the moggie population. Gone are the days when a blue or cream were rare indeed.


That surprises me. Where in the UK are you? Still, looking at it logically, since Silver is Dominant, one accidental mating of a silver cat goes a long way.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy

My view on breeders adding to the population is simply that for every pedigree kitten bred and sold, a potential home for a rescue is gone. I know its not as black and white as that but hopefully you get the gist.


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## lizward

Tje said:


> yeah and you are really kidding yourself Liz if you think pedigree bred cats are a big problem in shelters. I'm not saying we never see a pedigree come through our shelter, we do. But compared to the amount of cats in shelters the percentage of peds are tiny! Even when compared percentage wise of the total cat population (pedigree to moggy) way more moggys get dumped than peds. And peds are the easiest by far to rehome. I could rehome a nice looking ped with a bad temper, a peeing problem and a special diet in a 10th of the time it will take me to rehome the best natured, healthiest, litter trained moggy. I wish it wasn't this way, but it is.


That was not what I meant. Suppose no-one at all bred pedigree cats. Eventually the great majority of those who are currently in the market for a pedigree cat would buy a moggy instead.

Liz


----------



## lizward

billyboysmammy said:


> My view on breeders adding to the population is simply that for every pedigree kitten bred and sold, a potential home for a rescue is gone. I know its not as black and white as that but hopefully you get the gist.


Exactly

Liz


----------



## billyboysmammy

lizward said:


> That surprises me. Where in the UK are you? Still, looking at it logically, since Silver is Dominant, one accidental mating of a silver cat goes a long way.
> 
> Liz


I'm in wiltshire so sort of central south area. I deal with rescues from gloucestershire, avon, oxfordshire and somerset too... maybe its a southern thing.

With regards to the raggy and bsh crosses, i have a feeling these are mainly the responsibility of a few "breeders" producing them to fill the demand in the market for cheap "fancy coloured" cats.

The dilute and unusual coloured/patterned cats ALWAYS get homed first from rescue without a doubt. It doesnt seem to have any bearing on their age or behavioural issues, people will make adjustments for a "fancy cat".

The popularity goes down with the poor blacks at the bottom. You can imagine my dismay when the stray i took on had 4 (sadly lost one) black kittens. 1 has been homed, 2 are still looking and they are 21 weeks old


----------



## Amethyst

lizward said:


> Are they really full of first cross kittens? I rather doubt it somehow. EVERY litter we breed means a certain number of kittens we have to find homes for. If we pretend that by breeding AT ALL we are somehow not adding to the number of cats in rescue, we are simply kidding ourselves.
> 
> Liz


It doesn't detract from the fact that you are producing unplanned, and if you are honest unwanted litters.

Poor kittens at 5 months of age they should be happy and settled in loving homes, not awaiting the results of DNA tests because you have been so careless 

Oh well, on a brighter note, I guess this can only serve as a "red light" to any forum members who might have considered buying kittens from you 

I would be especially horrified to read this thread if I'd previously bought a "pedigree" kitten from you 

Do you belong to any Breed Clubs, hate to think what they would make of this ...


----------



## Tje

lizward said:


> I have *never *sold as a registered pedigree any kitten where I was uncertain about the parentage. As for knowing that some of my girls go outside, yes, any buyer who comes here will see that. It isn't breaking any rule of any organisation I belong to and it isn't breaking any terms of any contract I have signed, nor of any verbal agreement I have made. The risk is entirely mine and I honestly don't see why it should offend anyone else.


I am not offended Liz. I was merely trying to establish if you were open and upfront with your buyers. You are, so no worries. I would be worried if I bought a cat off a breeder like you (and was told it was a strictly indoor cat) and then found out it was let outdoors to roam, how could I ever know who the father of my kitten really was? How would I know my cats genetic mother was actually the one who reared it. And if I dont know who the father really is, how useless are all those tests? However if this doesnt bother your buyers, then it only goes to show what I always say horses for courses. I wouldnt buy from you and no doubt if I bred you wouldnt buy from me (because I think youd find my home run too much like a military operation, lol.)


----------



## Starlite

lizward said:


> Can't remember. I have been breeding for 18 years and I don't register accidents.
> Liz


This comment really disturbs me, you cannot honestly say how many litters you have had. Do you not keep records, or do you just churn out litters to "get through the generations quickly"?

What pi$$es me off is if a moggy gets pregnant under similar circumstances like yours they are torn apart on the forum, but you seem to shrug it off because your cats are peds.

I sincerely hope your attitude towards breeding is not a widely shared one amongst cat breeders.
I admit I know little about the cat world (showing/breeding) but Im always trying to learn and if I were to do with dogs what you are doing with cats i'd be disgusted with myself!

I have always wanted a pedigree cat (Siamese) and maybe one day, but i'd run a mile from a breeder like you no matter what type of animal i was looking for, your attitude is astounding


----------



## Tje

lizward said:


> That was not what I meant. Suppose no-one at all bred pedigree cats. Eventually the great majority of those who are currently in the market for a pedigree cat would buy a moggy instead.


or what would be perfect was that people started breeding moogys to the high standards (good and responsible) pedigree breeders uphold. I have no real preference for pedigree or moggy.... for me the reason I pay top-dollar is to know my cat comes from generations of pampered pets bred for the right reasons and bred in the right way.


----------



## Amethyst

billyboysmammy said:


> I'm in wiltshire so sort of central south area. I deal with rescues from gloucestershire, avon, oxfordshire and somerset too... maybe its a southern thing.
> (


I think it's pretty much building up nationwide now, very much like pedigree dogs unfortunately. At one time pedigree pooches were the exception, not anymore and all breeds are showing up, some more than others.

Now there are so many back yard breeders/pet owners/whatever jumping on the band wagon with cats, the pedigree kitties are becoming more common as rescues. Looking at all the kittens for sale online, it's only set to get worse


----------



## Tje

Starlite said:


> This comment really disturbs me, you cannot honestly say how many litters you have had. Do you not keep records, or do you just churn out litters to "get through the generations quickly"?
> 
> What pi$$es me off is if a moggy gets pregnant under similar circumstances like yours they are torn apart on the forum, but you seem to shrug it off because your cats are peds.
> 
> I sincerely hope your attitude towards breeding is not a widely shared one amongst cat breeders.
> I admit I know little about the cat world (showing/breeding) but Im always trying to learn and if I were to do with dogs what you are doing with cats i'd be disgusted with myself!
> 
> I have always wanted a pedigree cat (Siamese) and maybe one day, but i'd run a mile from a breeder like you no matter what type of animal i was looking for, your attitude is astounding


Starlite... I feel exactly the same. Breeders like Liz... sorry, they are the ones who give good breeders a bad reputation. I have no idea how widely held these type of attitudes are amongst cat breeders, like you I can only hope they are not common. And I wouldn't even have a problem if someone on here bred moggies... all I would ask is that they did it in the right way and for the right reasons and took all the necessary precautions with health testing etc.


----------



## billyboysmammy

Amethyst said:


> I think it's pretty much building up nationwide now, very much like pedigree dogs unfortunately. At one time pedigree pooches were the exception, not anymore and all breeds are showing up, some more than others.
> 
> Now there are so many back yard breeders/pet owners/whatever jumping on the band wagon with cats, the pedigree kitties are becoming more common as rescues. Looking at all the kittens for sale online, it's only set to get worse


Agreed.

In the last 3 years off the top of my head i have had through my doors (just mine as a fosterer), 3 cornish rex, 2 devon rex, 2 bsh, 1 raggie, 2 persians, and a number of crosses. That doesnt include the exotic coloured cats, these are cats surrendered as their specific breed. All but 2 of the cornish and 1 of the devons were pregnant. Most were homed with the help of breed rescue too.


----------



## lizward

Amethyst said:


> Poor kittens at 5 months of age they should be happy and settled in loving homes, not awaiting the results of DNA tests because you have been so careless


Well, you know, they seem quite happy tearing around here 



> Do you belong to any Breed Clubs, hate to think what they would make of this ...


Well I could of course have pretended it didn't happen, and that would have been fine wouldn't it, no-one would have known any different. Do you seriously think no other breeders have ever had anything like this?

Liz


----------



## lizward

Starlite said:


> This comment really disturbs me, you cannot honestly say how many litters you have had. Do you not keep records, or do you just churn out litters to "get through the generations quickly"?


I could work out how many litters I had registered, I don't know offhand. I think you will find most long term breeders don't.



> What pi$$es me off is if a moggy gets pregnant under similar circumstances like yours they are torn apart on the forum


NOT BY ME!

Liz


----------



## Tje

billyboysmammy said:


> Agreed.
> 
> In the last 3 years off the top of my head i have had through my doors (just mine as a fosterer), 3 cornish rex, 2 devon rex, 2 bsh, 1 raggie, 2 persians, and a number of crosses. That doesnt include the exotic coloured cats, these are cats surrendered as their specific breed. All but 2 of the cornish and 1 of the devons were pregnant. Most were homed with the help of breed rescue too.


in all my years of rescue, I have only ever had moggies rescues (well, apart from the 4 teacup Persians, which I shudder to use the word "pedigree" with, but I suppose technically they are).


----------



## Amethyst

lizward said:


> Well, you know, they seem quite happy tearing around here
> 
> Well I could of course have pretended it didn't happen, and that would have been fine wouldn't it, no-one would have known any different. Do you seriously think no other breeders have ever had anything like this?
> 
> Liz


I'll take that as a "No" then? You don't belong to any Breed Clubs?

To be honest, it's not so much that "it happened" but rather your rather casual attitude to it. But perhaps that is your approach to cat breeding?


----------



## billyboysmammy

Tje said:


> in all my years of rescue, I have only ever had moggies rescues (well, apart from the 4 teacup Persians, which I shudder to use the word "pedigree" with, but I suppose technically they are).


This is it though, I think the UK is on a massive bandwagon of pedigrees and pedigree crosses and ped look-a-likes at the moment. Everyone wants a posh pussy. I will hasten to add that the majority of the fosters through my doors were only here a very short period of time until the breed rescues took over.

Sadly some breeders are mass producing these kittens to fill the need in the market. Often their actions are reckless, careless and sloppy, even those which are fairly well known.


----------



## Tje

Amethyst said:


> To be honest, it's not so much that "it happened" but rather your rather casual attitude to it. But perhaps that is your approach to cat breeding?


Lizward accused BBM and myself the other day of being complete panic merchants (or it might have been scaremongers, I can't recall the exact terminology) because we are pretty... well, prepared, read up, err on the side of caution, don't ignore any risks, be prepared for the worst.... I took it as a compliment considering who it came from. An insult from some quarters *IS* a postive compliment, lol. As no doubt Lizward hears me calling her lacsadaisical and thinks "well, thank gawd I am not as anal as you".


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

I would still buy from Liz if what she said on her added up to what I saw in person.

Everyone makes mistakes we are only human, you will not find one perfect person in the world. I mean i just started my new job which involves alot of multi tasking (not my greatest skill) I try my damn best to make sure things are perfect for the customer and still got called a bloody moron by a customer in front of other customers just because I got confused :scared:

To me what matters is how someone makes up for their mistake (like the DNA testing) I apologized but I guess it wasnt good enough for the customer.


----------



## billyboysmammy

With cats I am the eternal pessimist, and whilst i might hope for the best, I am prepared for the worst.

Passing on that info is a duty for me to help anyone else have the full picture and be better suited to making an informed decision. I also base my advice on the information given and what i know to be the risks, (what i would do in their shoes), and sometimes that advice doesnt sit well with certain members.

If that makes me a scaremonger... then thank fook!


----------



## billyboysmammy

I dont see it as about making mistakes we are all human. However if those mistakes are repeated with a degree of regularity and the attitude towards them is "oh well, never mind" iinstead of being desperate for it not to repeat itself ... thats where i have the problem!


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## Miss.PuddyCat

billyboysmammy said:


> I dont see it as about making mistakes we are all human. However if those mistakes are repeated with a degree of regularity and the attitude towards them is "oh well, never mind" iinstead of being desperate for it not to repeat itself ... thats where i have the problem!


No I would have a problem if it was something that was a regular thing but on a one off no if they took control and tried their best to make up for the mistake.


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## westie~ma

Good morning 

I've been asked to do some weeding in here 

This thread will be allowed to remain open as long as members remain civil, thank you.

As you were ...


----------



## messyhearts

westie~ma said:


> Good morning
> 
> I've been asked to do some weeding in here
> 
> This thread will be allowed to remain open as long as members remain civil, thank you.
> 
> As you were ...


Thank you.


----------



## Tje

Thanks so much Westie-Ma for pulling the weeds out (as it were) and reopening the garden (as it were).

The subject matter being discussed on this thread is a very important one, and as cat lovers surely we all want to see matters about feline welfare and breeding standards being discussed openly and frankly.

*Delighted* to see this reopened!! Thank you!!

_(Can I just add, so that no misunderstandings are possible... that my gardening analogy above is in no way meant to imply that Westie-Ma is a gardener or any of the posters on this forum are weeds of any shape, sort or form  )_


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## billyboysmammy

Thank you westi-ma 

I am really really happy to see the thread open and running again.

In the immortal words of mr burns!


----------



## billyboysmammy

Without trying to drag up history, there are plenty of other analogys which could have been posted.

you could have compared:

a michelin chef to the skanky salmonella kebab joint, 
Pavarotti to Jedward, 
Dickens to Barbara Cartland,

I like the use of analogies. Just like some breeders are excemplory others are the lowest of the low. Its the same in dog breeding, some are brilliant some are terrible and there is EVERY shade in between! Its never black and white, and its always based on personal opionion and experience.

I am not presuming to say anyone on here is the lowest of breeders, they are not (they wouldnt be here if they didnt care about their pets) and I dont know one member on here who would top the chart either......I am just saying that sometimes when you stand back and look at the evidence presented I know where I would slot people on my scale. 


Every breeder needs to be honest and admit where there is room for improvement, if they are not questioning and continuously improving their practices and routines then thats the time to stop breeding for good.


----------



## dougal22

westie~ma said:


> Good morning
> 
> I've been asked to do some weeding in here
> 
> This thread will be allowed to remain open as long as members remain civil, thank you.
> 
> As you were ...


Thank you Westie-Ma, it's an important thread containing lots of useful info. Having followed the entire original thread with great interest, I didn't feel the 'garden to be overrun with weeds'. Forums are excellent places to share information; they also often highlight differences of opinion, which I feel is a good thing  
Thanks again for re-opening this thread.


----------



## Biawhiska

Liz has been a member of this forum for ages! I can't believe everyone has turned on her all of a sudden ? she has always been open and honest and has helped a hell of alot of people on here with any problems. why do you all have to be so nasty? as long as liz is looking after her cats and selling fit and healthy kittens then what's the problem? i'd rather that than go to a someone who has their cats all locked up in cages outside, including the kittens.


----------



## Aurelia

Biawhiska said:


> Liz has been a member of this forum for ages! I can't believe everyone has turned on her all of a sudden ? she has always been open and honest and has helped a hell of alot of people on here with any problems. why do you all have to be so nasty? as long as liz is looking after her cats and selling fit and healthy kittens then what's the problem? i'd rather that than go to a someone who has their cats all locked up in cages outside, including the kittens.


No one is being nasty? I think some just can't believe it, me included.

Also, and I hate to point this out (and this is not just aimed at Liz) ... but just because someone has been a member for however long, does not mean they do things right, or that it shouldn't be questioned. Also Liz does put her cats and kittens outside ...

To give you an example: There was a long standing member on the forums not so long ago who was uncovered for something pretty terrible. No one would have known on the face of things what she was up to. It was only through a bit off goggling that it was discovered. She rehomed a dog, and before she even received the dog she had it listed on sites all over the place ready for stud. It was worse than that, but that's the gist of it. I'm not suggesting Liz is like this, but suggesting that it's more than possible that awful things go on behind the name of a member. Long standing member does not necessarily mean - Good honesty member.


----------



## David C

Biawhiska said:


> Liz has been a member of this forum for ages! I can't believe everyone has turned on her all of a sudden ? she has always been open and honest and has helped a hell of alot of people on here with any problems. why do you all have to be so nasty? as long as liz is looking after her cats and selling fit and healthy kittens then what's the problem? i'd rather that than go to a someone who has their cats all locked up in cages outside, including the kittens.


Ditto everything said here , i find some of the things that have been said on this and other threads over the past few days disspicable and really not appropriate behaviour for so called inteligent adults , this kind of thing is what would be expected of kids who dont know any better .
I personaly think this thread should have remained locked and even possibly removed .


----------



## Biawhiska

Aurelia said:


> No one is being nasty? I think some just can't believe it, me included.
> 
> Also, and I hate to point this out (and this is not just aimed at Liz) ... but just because someone has been a member for however long, does not mean they do things right, or that it shouldn't be questioned. Also Liz does put her cats and kittens outside ...
> 
> To give you an example: There was a long standing member on the forums not so long ago who was uncovered for something pretty terrible. No one would have known on the face of things what she was up to. It was only through a bit off goggling that it was discovered. She rehomed a dog, and before she even received the dog she had it listed on sites all over the place ready for stud. It was worse than that, but that's the gist of it. I'm not suggesting Liz is like this, but suggesting that it's more than possible that awful things go on behind the name of a member. Long standing member does not necessarily mean - Good honesty member.


not saying long term member = good. just wondering why people have only just decided to say what they think.


----------



## Biawhiska

David C said:


> Ditto everything said here , i find some of the things that have been said on this and other threads over the past few days disspicable and really not appropriate behaviour for so called inteligent adults , this kind of thing is what would be expected of kids who dont know any better .
> I personaly think this thread should have remained locked and even possibly removed .


I agree. I do think this thread should be locked. Others have been locked in the past.


----------



## Tje

Biawhiska said:


> Liz has been a member of this forum for ages! I can't believe everyone has turned on her all of a sudden ? she has always been open and honest and has helped a hell of alot of people on here with any problems. why do you all have to be so nasty? as long as liz is looking after her cats and selling fit and healthy kittens then what's the problem? i'd rather that than go to a someone who has their cats all locked up in cages outside, including the kittens.


Its got nothing to do with turning on someone. Just the other day Liz herself expressed her disappointment with the forum because she thinks some of us are scaremongers and over the top in our care of cats & kittens  that wasnt Liz turning on anyone, it was just her voicing her opinion, which of course she entitled to do. So if Liz is free to say that, surely others are free to question her standards too?

And don't forget, many newbies coming to the forums, they have no idea what to look for in a breeder, so threads like this can only help those buyers find a breeder they like by showing that breeders (like anything else in life) come in a wide spectrum -- with a vast different range of qualities and standards.


----------



## ChinaBlue

It seems to me that whether you agree with Liz's practices or not (I personally wouldn't work this way) she doesn't appear to have tried to hide anything. She is after all going to the lengths of DNA testing to establish who is the sire and she isn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.


----------



## billyboysmammy

Biawhiska said:


> I agree. I do think this thread should be locked. Others have been locked in the past.


It has only just been re-opened after modding. If any of the posts this morning are what you find offensive then report them.


----------



## Aurelia

Biawhiska said:


> not saying long term member = good. just wondering why people have only just decided to say what they think.


Well I can speak for myself here ... I hadn't even seen this thread until Liz herself bumped it the other day. Else I would of said something then.


----------



## Biawhiska

I don't mean just this thread, I mean Liz's posts in the past. This is what I mean about being a long term memeber. She has often posted about her breeding, so wondered why people have a problem 'all of a sudden' that's all.


----------



## billyboysmammy

Having been the one accused of being a panic merchant and scaremongerer because i like to give people the facts I dont see any different questioning one persons opinions and practices to anothers.

This thread has questioned liz's breeding practices, she in turn has questioned people on theirs.


----------



## billyboysmammy

Biawhiska said:


> I don't mean just this thread, I mean Liz's posts in the past. This is what I mean about being a long term memeber. She has often posted about her breeding, so wondered why people have a problem 'all of a sudden' that's all.


I think its taken a few people a while to actually add 2 & 2 together thats all. The info is there - in snippets... its like putting together a jigsaw and finally seeing the picture revealed.


----------



## Biawhiska

billyboysmammy said:


> I think its taken a few people a while to actually add 2 & 2 together thats all. The info is there - in snippets... its like putting together a jigsaw and finally seeing the picture revealed.


Thankyou for answering my question.


----------



## Aurelia

billyboysmammy said:


> I think its taken a few people a while to actually add 2 & 2 together thats all. The info is there - in snippets... its like putting together a jigsaw and finally seeing the picture revealed.


^^^ This exactly.


----------



## westie~ma

David C said:


> Ditto everything said here , i find some of the things that have been said on this and other threads over the past few days disspicable and really not appropriate behaviour for so called inteligent adults , this kind of thing is what would be expected of kids who dont know any better .
> I personaly think this thread should have remained locked and even possibly removed .





Biawhiska said:


> I agree. I do think this thread should be locked. Others have been locked in the past.


Just to clarify, I don't like closing threads needlessly. If they can possibly be modded and the flow of the thread isn't lost then I have no objection to editing it and reopening. This thread wasn't difficult to manage so I re-opened it.

I did post to say that the content should remain civil 

Weeding = my own term for editing threads, it does not refer to members themselves


----------



## Biawhiska

well what a change from some previous mods. i guess i'm still back in those days as don't come on the breeding bit much, normally they were shut pretty quick!


----------



## Tje

> Ditto everything said here , i find some of the things that have been said on this and other threads over the past few days disspicable and really not appropriate behaviour for so called inteligent adults , this kind of thing is what would be expected of kids who dont know any better .I personaly think this thread should have remained locked and even possibly removed .


Theres lots of thread on here about the problems with rescue orgs (too rigid rules so people can never actually rehome a cat from them, people who want to volunteer but are turned away, people who want to foster but are turned away and many many more). I dont feel insulted by those threads; I know theyre not aimed at me personally, just at the world I play a part in. When I read these threads citicising rescues, I almost always wholeheartedly agree with the posters, it is very true that there are many problems in the rescue world and people (I feel) have the right to voice their concerns. I wouldnt achieve anything if I just called to get these threads deleted. They are highlighting valid problems in the rescue world and I do not want to stifle open debate about that. The only way the rescue world will ever improve is through open debate on the subject. I see no difference with the world of breeding. Intelligent adults should be able to debate matters openly.


----------



## lauren001

I think the comments re Liz and cross-breeding are perhaps misdirected.

I thought that Liz was involved in an outcross program, which when you consider the degree of inbreeding present in some breeds of pedigree cat, is very worthwhile work. 
It requires I think four generations of outcrosses to then get them accepted on the normal register, so it is not a spur of the moment decision to start such an enterprise.

Although of course not the best scenario with an oops litter, there are a lot of worse practices in the world of cat breeding.


----------



## messyhearts

lauren001 said:


> I think the comments re Liz and cross-breeding are perhaps misdirected.
> 
> I thought that Liz was involved in an outcross program, which when you consider the degree of inbreeding present in some breeds of pedigree cat, is very worthwhile work.
> It requires I think four generations of outcrosses to then get them accepted on the normal register, so it is not a spur of the moment decision to start such an enterprise.
> 
> Although of course not the best scenario with an oops litter, there are a lot of worse practices in the world of cat breeding.


I agree with you, Lauren. Liz has done some things that redeem her for things like this such as helping with that poor Egyptian Mau a few months back - not many people would have done that.


----------



## Biawhiska

messyhearts said:


> I agree with you, Lauren. Liz has done some things that redeem her for things like this such as helping with that poor Egyptian Mau a few months back - not many people would have done that.


This!
She did help out that poor cat and has offered to help with other cats too, and offered help and advice in her time here.


----------



## Tje

So if I take on ten rescues and treat them all very well, send them on their way all fixed up and mended does that then excuse me for rehoming a litter of malnourished kittens at 6 weeks old?

Just because we do some good and commendable things, does not mean we dont do some less good and less commendable things. 

Is it then wrong for someone to say hey Tje, well done or you good efforts, shame on you for rehoming too young malnourished kittens though.


----------



## messyhearts

Since when was this thread about malnourished kittens.......


----------



## Aurelia

Ladies, are you serious? 

So because someone helped a cat out here and there (and this is admirable) it makes everything else they do (or don't as the case may be) OK? Or justifiable? Errrr ??? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?

Lauren, as for the out crossing. Big difference with out crossing compared to letting your breeds mix, entires, or even letting your entires out on the streets ... unless out crossing is another word for moggy breeding?


----------



## Starlite

lauren001 said:


> I think the comments re Liz and cross-breeding are perhaps misdirected.
> 
> I thought that Liz was involved in an outcross program, which when you consider the degree of inbreeding present in some breeds of pedigree cat, is very worthwhile work.
> It requires I think four generations of outcrosses to then get them accepted on the normal register, so it is not a spur of the moment decision to start such an enterprise.
> 
> Although of course not the best scenario with an oops litter, there are a lot of worse practices in the world of cat breeding.


i very much doubt you would say that had it been a dog. You are so anti puppy farming apparently, but see no problem with this in cats?

Im uncomfortable with anyone having more than one litter at a time for the simple reason you cannot dedicate as much time to the babies as you would be able to otherwise and even if you are doing an outcross programme, wanting to get through the generations quickly is a very poor excuse for me - ever heard of patience??

No one is turning on Liz, people are shocked at her lax attitude more than anything else. 
And its not about redeeming yourself - these are lives we are talking about not something trivial!
Thought and care should be given to every potential breeding, as well as detailed records but maybe im a stickler for doing things right.

I am also a member of a few breed clubs which have been invaluable, i find it starnge someone who has bred from 18yrs doesnt appear to :confused1:


----------



## messyhearts

Aurelia said:


> Ladies, are you serious?
> 
> So because someone helped a cat out here and there (and this is admirable) it makes everything else they do (or don't as the case may be) OK? Or justifiable? Errrr ??? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?
> 
> Lauren, as for the out crossing. Big difference with out crossing compared to letting your breeds mix, entires, or even letting your entires out on the streets ... unless out crossing is another word for moggy breeding?


I think the point was that the (poor) analogies used before about how breeders can't be perfect is true - they can't. Liz has done some redeemable things & some things that aren't perfect like all humans.

Again I am not sure where letting cats out to roam to get pregnant comes in to this thread....


----------



## David C

Tje said:


> So if I take on ten rescues and treat them all very well, send them on their way all fixed up and mended does that then excuse me for rehoming a litter of malnourished kittens at 6 weeks old?
> 
> Just because we do some good and commendable things, does not mean we dont do some less good and less commendable things.
> 
> .


Oh for goodness sake , Liz has never done anything like and would never do anything like that , we are talking about accidental litters here but litters that have been reared properly had all their inoculations and had the best of everything before being found suitable homes , it is not the end of the world , its happened and Liz has been totaly honest and up fron which is far more that some people woud be .
Can this just please just be dropped now , its getting tiring and i personaly think enough has been said on the matter . Lets all move on from this and just leave it be .


----------



## Aurelia

Because Liz does just that MessyH! As a breeder of 18+ years she should know that queens can come into call at any time of year. Heck I know that and I'm not even at the end of my first year!


----------



## billyboysmammy

messyhearts said:


> Since when was this thread about malnourished kittens.......


here we go again!

It was another analogy - even i can see that and i seem to have missed whatever else you two have going on at the moment!

As for liz's work with the maus and other similar litters she has my utmost admiration and support, and as she knows i greatly admire her for her work on hypokalemia.

That to me isnt an excuse for some of the breeding practices she has employed. I'm not talking so much about this litter, but the general admission of allowing unspeyed queens to wander the neighbourhood, general attitudes and mixing litters so even the mothers cant be distinguished amongst other things.

This shouldnt be a witch hunt, it should be a discussion. Trying to have all breeders question their own practices so the same doesnt happen to them and to have people see a different point of view (that includes me!). Anyone involved with animals has their own routines and they can become outdated and viewed as irresponsible over time. What was once acceptable is no longer. Surely if you are a good person with your animals welfare at heart you can regonise this and would make any necessary changes.

I am not for a minute suggesting liz doesnt care about her pets, thats blatantly not true, but for me some of her practices leave alot to be desired.


----------



## Starlite

David C said:


> Oh for goodness sake , Liz has never done anything like and would never do anything like that , we are talking about accidental litters here but litters that have been reared properly had all their inoculations and had the best of everything before being found suitable homes , it is not the end of the world , its happened and Liz has been totaly honest and up fron which is far more that some people woud be .
> Can this just please just be dropped now , its getting tiring and i personaly think enough has been said on the matter . Lets all move on from this and just leave it be .


Why are you even on the thread if you are fed up of it?? 

Do you know Liz personally i assume, its about the only way you can claim ", Liz has never done anything like and would never do anything like that" with some confidence as you can be anyone you wanna be on here y'know

Im actually a space ranger :lol:


----------



## messyhearts

billyboysmammy said:


> here we go again!
> 
> It was another analogy - even i can see that and i seem to have missed whatever else you two have going on at the moment!
> 
> As for liz's work with the maus and other similar litters she has my utmost admiration and support, and as she knows i greatly admire her for her work on hypokalemia.
> 
> That to me isnt an excuse for some of the breeding practices she has employed. I'm not talking so much about this litter, but the general admission of allowing unspeyed queens to wander the neighbourhood and mixing litters so even the mothers cant be distinguished amongst other things.
> 
> This shouldnt be a witch hunt, it should be a discussion. Trying to have all breeders question their own practices so the same doesnt happen to them and to have people see a different point of view (that includes me!). Anyone involved with animals has their own routines and they can become outdated and viewed as irresponsible over time. What was once acceptable is no longer. Surely if you are a good person with your animals welfare at heart you can regonise this and would make any necessary changes.
> 
> I am not for a minute suggesting liz doesnt care about her pets, thats blatantly not true, but for me some of her practices leave alot to be desired.


The voice of reason! No it shouldn't be a witch hunt & no there aren't excuses. Spot on.


----------



## billyboysmammy

Starlite said:


> Im actually a space ranger :lol:


To infinity and beyond! :thumbup:


----------



## Aurelia

messyhearts said:


> The voice of reason! No it shouldn't be a witch hunt & no there aren't excuses. Spot on.


*Big sigh of relief* Finally you get it 

Thanks BBM for putting it so eloquently. Hopefully folk will now understand more :thumbup:


----------



## lizward

David C said:


> Ditto everything said here , i find some of the things that have been said on this and other threads over the past few days disspicable and really not appropriate behaviour for so called inteligent adults , this kind of thing is what would be expected of kids who dont know any better .
> I personaly think this thread should have remained locked and even possibly removed .


I was out for the evening and missed the fun.

Back now from a fun morning microchipping some gorgeous puppies, buying a post which is needed to run an electric cable to the cat pens (cue more comments), helping out a neghbour with transport, and sending some gorgeous photos of some gorgeous kittens sired by my Basil to one or two friends. Of course, they might not have been sired by Basil since I let half a dozen street cats in the pen with the girl one after the other 

(before one or two of you go really over the top, the last sentence was a joke!)

Liz


----------



## lizward

messyhearts said:


> Since when was this thread about malnourished kittens.......


I don't think Tje realises how her comparisons look sometimes. That one even made me raise my eyebrows and I am very thick-skinned on forums.

Liz


----------



## lizward

Starlite said:


> even if you are doing an outcross programme, wanting to get through the generations quickly is a very poor excuse for me - ever heard of patience??


My reason for wanting to get through the generations quickly, as I would have explained last night had the thread not been locked, is that I bred last year (unknowingly) from two hypokalemia carriers. The boy was the sire of all but one of my asians. Now, given that scenario, and given the fact that I have been waiting already for TEN YEARS for my fourth Asian generation, and given that there is not likely to be a genetic test for this for another year, what is the best way to proceed? Some of you may say "scrap that line and start again" but if you had been waiting as long as I have, you might not feel like that. My preference? To move on through the generations asap, because with each generation the chances of the cats being carriers is halved.

Now, if anyone wants to condemn me for that, do feel free to carry on.

Liz


----------



## thelioncub

lizward said:


> To move on through the generations asap, because with each generation the chances of the cats being carriers is halved.


Interesting! Can a cat be a carrier and not be affected itself? I don't know anything about this but I do find it interesting to hear from 'behind the scenes' of a breeder as to what decisions they make and why.


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> My reason for wanting to get through the generations quickly, as I would have explained last night had the thread not been locked, is that I bred last year (unknowingly) from two hypokalemia carriers. The boy was the sire of all but one of my asians. Now, given that scenario, and given the fact that I have been waiting already for TEN YEARS for my fourth Asian generation, and given that there is not likely to be a genetic test for this for another year, what is the best way to proceed? Some of you may say "scrap that line and start again" but if you had been waiting as long as I have, you might not feel like that. My preference? To move on through the generations asap, because with each generation the chances of the cats being carriers is halved.
> 
> Now, if anyone wants to condemn me for that, do feel free to carry on.
> 
> Liz


Let me be the first to do just that Liz.

So let me get this straight. You are putting your need/want/desire before ensuring that (as best you can) not one single other kitten is born with the same condition ... by 'scrapping' that line? You are 'rushing through' the generations to get to a point where it's less likely, but what about those that do have it/ carry it in the mean time?

Are they just casualties of your desires?

I actually think I am going to be sick.

For anyone who doesn't know of this condition, or of the kitten Liz is talking of, this is a link to the video Liz made of Gordon YouTube - Gordon the Hypokalemic kitten


----------



## Tje

lizward said:


> I don't think Tje realises how her comparisons look sometimes. That one even made me raise my eyebrows and I am very thick-skinned on forums.
> 
> Liz


I know... imagine using an analogy that caring 'professions' like doctors/teachers/parents/cat breeders come in spectrum covering every degree of care from brilliant to terrible. I can well appreciate for some people of a more delicate disposition that that would have been an earth shattering revelation. How could I have been so dumb! :scared: But don't worry, I did get my big stick with the rusty nails back out and self-flagellated repeatedly.


----------



## lizward

thelioncub said:


> Interesting! Can a cat be a carrier and not be affected itself? I don't know anything about this but I do find it interesting to hear from 'behind the scenes' of a breeder as to what decisions they make and why.


Yes, this is a recessive gene. The problem here has been caused by three things:

1. Breeders sweeping things under the carpet, probably because of the attitude of other breeders, and therefore people not knowing that certain lines may be suspect. This has not been helped by the apathy and, in one case, outright hostility of breeders who are not willing to let anyone else have access to their pedigrees (with registration numbers removed, of course). This has led to -

2. Vets not knowing about this condition because breeders haven't been able to find out that others are affected, hence breeders are not expecting it, vets are not expecting it, and so the condition has often been misdiagnosed and a) cats have needlessly been PTS b) carrier cats have still been bred from and c) samples that could have been very useful for developing a test for this condition have not been taken.

3. Genuine ignorance of genetics - the owner of one stud cat, the sire of my carrier girl, had been told that he had sired a hypokalemic kitten but continued to allow him to be used widely for stud and continued to sell his offspring on the active register without warning buyers. This was not due to any dishonesty on her part, she simply did not understand. She has now retired from breeding.

This is what happens when everyone clams up and keeps their mistakes secret. What it is that causes people to clam up and keep their mistakes secret, I couldn't possibly being to imagine 

Liz


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Let me be the first to do just that Liz.


Goodness me, that is a surprise.



> So let me get this straight. You are putting your need/want/desire before ensuring that (as best you can) not one single other kitten is born with the same condition ... by 'scrapping' that line? You are 'rushing through' the generations to get to a point where it's less likely, but what about those that do have it/ carry it in the mean time?


Those that have it (one of mine so far) have to take a supplement twice a day. It's a very palatable supplement that is therefore very easy to give. As long as they take this supplement, they live a perfectly normal life. It's just that the supplement has to be bought. Carriers are of course completely unaffected and if you never mate two carriers together, you will never have a case of hypokalemia. But you knew that, didn't you.

Of course there is another option - scrap the breed completely, because this condition is likely to be all round the breed by now, thanks to people refusing to admit they have it because of the fear of receiving condemnation from certain people who think it could never ever happen to them. I fear for the future of the breed in a couple of years time, unless that test is functioning by then.

Liz


----------



## lizward

Tje said:


> I did get my big stick with the rusty nails back out and self-flagellated repeatedly.


Good. Now make a nice big donation to the impoverished Burmese breeders' fund and we'll call it quits 

Liz


----------



## thelioncub

lizward said:


> 3. Genuine ignorance of genetics - the owner of one stud cat, the sire of my carrier girl, had been told that he had sired a hypokalemic kitten but continued to allow him to be used widely for stud and continued to sell his offspring on the active register without warning buyers. This was not due to any dishonesty on her part, she simply did not understand. She has now retired from breeding.
> 
> This is what happens when everyone clams up and keeps their mistakes secret. What it is that causes people to clam up and keep their mistakes secret, I couldn't possibly being to imagine
> 
> Liz


Sorry if this has already been answered - but do you breed from your carrier girl? How do you know that any of the studs aren't carriers - which I assume means you could have kittens affected by this? Can you breed with one carrier and one non-carrier, and end up with an affected kitten? - If not, then I don't see why you'd necessarily need to end that line. I'm sure that many animals (and people) are carriers for something - but shouldn't be forced to not have kids on the basis that the offspring would too be carriers (unless being a carrier causes another problem of course)


----------



## Tje

lizward said:


> Good. Now make a nice big donation to the impoverished Burmese breeders' fund and we'll call it quits
> 
> Liz


christ you're joking!! you _know_ I am Scottish. Last time I opened my purse the queen demanded sunglasses after she blinked 197 times.


----------



## billyboysmammy

the trouble with hypokalemia is that until a test is developed the ONLY way of weeding it out is with strict knowledge of the lines you are breeding. That knowledge is indespenable, you should not breed from a cat without knowing its history.

You need to be able to trace back the generations to make sure there is no carrier.


More worryingly this isnt just an "asian" thing. It originated in the burmese. Burmese have been used for years as outcrosses for a number of other breeds, so IMO this is a ticking bomb waiting to explode.

Liz will correct my if i am wrong i'm sure.


----------



## lizward

thelioncub said:


> Sorry if this has already been answered - but do you breed from your carrier girl? How do you know that any of the studs aren't carriers - which I assume means you could have kittens affected by this? Can you breed with one carrier and one non-carrier, and end up with an affected kitten? - If not, then I don't see why you'd necessarily need to end that line. I'm sure that many animals (and people) are carriers for something - but shouldn't be forced to not have kids on the basis that the offspring would too be carriers (unless being a carrier causes another problem of course)


Both the known carriers were immediately removed from the breeding programme. The issue for me is that any of their offspring might be affected (they all have a 50% chance of being carriers). This means that I cannot sell their offspring to novice breeders (or breeders without sufficient understanding of genetics) and that if I mate two offspring together I am taking a risk as it is possible that both might be carriers. Fortunately I do have a stud who is not suspected of carrying this (may shortly be two, if the parentage test result is the one I want, STILL waiting!)

Both parents have to be carriers for the kittens to be affected. The difficulty with recessive genes is that they can be carried, in theory at least, for ever. The condition could emerge ten generations later, just as happens from time to time with humans. The chances of it emerging are of course much higher in pedigree animals because the gene pool is so small.

Liz


----------



## lizward

billyboysmammy said:


> the trouble with hypokalemia is that until a test is developed the ONLY way of weeding it out is with strict knowledge of the lines you are breeding. That knowledge is indespenable, you should not breed from a cat without knowing its history.
> 
> You need to be able to trace back the generations to make sure there is no carrier.
> 
> More worryingly this isnt just an "asian" thing. It originated in the burmese. Burmese have been used for years as outcrosses for a number of other breeds, so IMO this is a ticking bomb waiting to explode.
> 
> Liz will correct my if i am wrong i'm sure.


You are quite correct. The difficulty is that you cannot know the history if those who have bred hypokalemic cats will not acknowledge the fact.

Liz


----------



## lizward

Tje said:


> you _know_ I am Scottish.


Ah, sorry, I didn't 

Liz


----------



## lauren001

Starlite said:


> i very much doubt you would say that had it been a dog. You are so anti puppy farming apparently, but see no problem with this in cats?


An outcross program is an outcross program whether in dogs or cats. The pointer/dalmation outcross program has my backing and hopefully the backing of anyone else interested in dog welfare.

You are correct I am totally against puppy farming and kitten mills too if it comes down to it. Nothing makes me think Liz is either.


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Goodness me, that is a surprise.
> 
> Those that have it (one of mine so far) have to take a supplement twice a day. It's a very palatable supplement that is therefore very easy to give. As long as they take this supplement, they live a perfectly normal life. It's just that the supplement has to be bought. Carriers are of course completely unaffected and if you never mate two carriers together, you will never have a case of hypokalemia. But you knew that, didn't you.
> 
> Of course there is another option - scrap the breed completely, because this condition is likely to be all round the breed by now, thanks to people refusing to admit they have it because of the fear of receiving condemnation from certain people who think it could never ever happen to them. I fear for the future of the breed in a couple of years time, unless that test is functioning by then.
> 
> Liz


Liz, I'm sorry but to me it now sounds like you are justifying bringing into the world carriers. Which could lead on to cats suffering with the condition. Lets not forget Gordon's brother who had to be PTS!

Why would you even risk that? Surely the responsible thing to do is to 'scrap' that line completely and only breed the one you have that you are fairly certain don't have it? Or is that not possible?

Because there isn't a test for it, maybe this is where you could focus more. Instead of pumping out kittens as quick as you can to work through generations , knowingly putting them at risk ... why not donate those monies it costs to breed a litter to the folk who are working to develop a test. (this paragraph is merely a suggestion btw).

So, does the supplement protect Gordon (and any other sufferer) from developing ill effects at all? Do you (or does anyone) know if this is the case? Has every cat with the condition taking the suppliment lived to a ripe old healthy age? Can you describe what would happen to a cat with the condition, who doesn't take the supplement?

One last thing, you talk about other breeders breeding from cats with this condition (or carrying it) ... yet you are doing just that? being honest about it doesn't make it OK, well not in my mind anyway


----------



## Snowy's_Mummy

David C said:


> Ditto everything said here , i find some of the things that have been said on this and other threads over the past few days disspicable and really not appropriate behaviour for so called inteligent adults , this kind of thing is what would be expected of kids who dont know any better .
> I personaly think this thread should have remained locked and even possibly removed .





Tje said:


> And don't forget, many newbies coming to the forums, they have no idea what to look for in a breeder, so threads like this can only help those buyers find a breeder they like by showing that breeders (like anything else in life) come in a wide spectrum -- with a vast different range of qualities and standards.


I'm a newbie here and hoped to find a friendly forum based on a shared love of cats and supportive discussions about how to raise them.

Sadly, my limited experience reading the threads here so far has made me feel that this is not always the case and my perception of nastiness and extreme criticism displayed by some members makes me less likely to want to become part of this community.

It would be sad to think that potential new members are coming here looking for help and advice and are scared away. I hope this is not the case as I'm sure the members here have a lot to offer.


----------



## Biawhiska

the breeding bit does get like this but post in cat chat, and health bit and people can and will help and answer questions. please stay


----------



## dougal22

Snowy's_Mummy said:


> I'm a newbie here and hoped to find a friendly forum based on a shared love of cats and supportive discussions about how to raise them.
> 
> Sadly, my limited experience reading the threads here so far has made me feel that this is not always the case and my perception of nastiness and extreme criticism displayed by some members makes me less likely to want to become part of this community.
> 
> It would be sad to think that potential new members are coming here looking for help and advice and are scared away. I hope this is not the case as I'm sure the members here have a lot to offer.


Hi and welcome  I relatively new to this forum and can assure you that you will get a lot of support and guidance should you need it, in all aspects of feline welfare  
I appear to have a different perspective and do not see this, or any other thread I've read, as being nasty or extremely critical, just totally honest. Everyone's different and a forum should be a place where we can share difference of opinions and perhaps learn from the experience of others if we are open to that. 
Speaking from personal experience, I have learnt a huge amount with regards to nutrition from one particular member of this forum, but other people may not have benefited in this way. What's right for one person may not be for the next.
A discussion/debate forum is a healthy arena. Please do not be put off by using the forum and if you have any questions, ask away, someone will always try to help you


----------



## buffie

I second dougal .I'm not that new to the forum(6months approx)But believe me it is full of very helpful,knowledgeable folks,on all the sites.Everyone of them more than willing to help where they can.When things get a bit "heated" it is usually because people feel and care so passionately and trying to get a point across on a forum is quite difficult.Please stick around we are a friendly bunch,honest.


----------



## Starlite

We're puddycats, honest

Storke our ears and see


----------



## buffie

Starlite said:


> We're puddycats, honest
> 
> Storke our ears and see


What happens when we" storke" your ears


----------



## Starlite

buffie said:


> What happens when we" storke" your ears


i purr like a kitten, what did your dirty mind think??


----------



## buffie

Starlite said:


> i purr like a kitten, what did your dirty mind think??


Check the spelling:lol::lol:


----------



## Starlite

buffie said:


> Check the spelling:lol::lol:


pawhahahahahaha! I am a dumbass, its offical


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Liz, I'm sorry but to me it now sounds like you are justifying bringing into the world carriers. Which could lead on to cats suffering with the condition. Lets not forget Gordon's brother who had to be PTS!
> 
> Why would you even risk that? Surely the responsible thing to do is to 'scrap' that line completely and only breed the one you have that you are fairly certain don't have it? Or is that not possible?
> 
> Because there isn't a test for it, maybe this is where you could focus more. Instead of pumping out kittens as quick as you can to work through generations , knowingly putting them at risk ... why not donate those monies it costs to breed a litter to the folk who are working to develop a test. (this paragraph is merely a suggestion btw).


My apologies Aurelia, I thought you were an expert on all breeding matters including genetics. You can only get a hypokalemic cat if you breed two carriers together.



> So, does the supplement protect Gordon (and any other sufferer) from developing ill effects at all?


Obviously they have the symptoms before you start giving the supplement, that's how you work out that they have the condition. They also get further episdoes as they grow. Then, in maturity, the amount you have to give reduces gradually for some reason.



> Has every cat with the condition taking the suppliment lived to a ripe old healthy age?


I don't know of any studies that have been done on this one



> Can you describe what would happen to a cat with the condition, who doesn't take the supplement?


Increasing stiffness until the cat can hardly move, and I assume eventually (within days) the condition would cause heart failure.



> One last thing, you talk about other breeders breeding from cats with this condition (or carrying it) ... yet you are doing just that? being honest about it doesn't make it OK, well not in my mind anyway


But I know what I am doing, a novice breeder may not.

Liz


----------



## lizward

Snowy's_Mummy said:


> It would be sad to think that potential new members are coming here looking for help and advice and are scared away. I hope this is not the case as I'm sure the members here have a lot to offer.


I'm afraid it happens constantly

Liz


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> But I know what I am doing, a novice breeder may not.
> 
> Liz


Bit of a daft question! but how can you know what you are doing if you leave em to it? as you say you have!

I don't do cats but assume cat breeding ain't that different to dog breeding thought And certainly not knowing which dog had sired which litter would be a big no no in the dog world! Do you cat folk do it different then?


----------



## Atlantys

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't do cats but assume cat breeding ain't that different to dog breeding thought And certainly not knowing which dog had sired which litter would be a big no no in the dog world! Do you cat folk do it different then?


Not if we're doing it properly, we don't.

That was sort of the point of this thread.


----------



## lizward

DoubleTrouble said:


> Bit of a daft question! but how can you know what you are doing if you leave em to it? as you say you have!


Well OK, I suppose if I had had two carriers living in the house, and had not known they were carriers, and they had mated, I might well have had a hypokalemic kitten. Whereas, if I had the stud cat in the stud house, and put the girl in with him (which I did), and had not known they were carriers, I might well have had a hypokalemic kitten .....

Liz


----------



## Guest

lizward said:


> Well OK, I suppose if I had had two carriers living in the house, and had not known they were carriers, and they had mated, I might well have had a hypokalemic kitten. Whereas, if I had the stud cat in the stud house, and put the girl in with him (which I did), and had not known they were carriers, I might well have had a hypokalemic kitten .....
> 
> Liz


but what if the stud were unknown to you then Liz! of is it guaranteed that is both the queen and the stud aint carrying then hypokalemic is ruled out?
and what if a queen had contacted it since last tested - or is this not possible and they have to be born with it due to two carriers!!
Bit thick ain't I?
Just interested!


----------



## lizward

DoubleTrouble said:


> but what if the stud were unknown to you then Liz! of is it guaranteed that is both the queen and the stud aint carrying then hypokalemic is ruled out?
> and what if a queen had contacted it since last tested - or is this not possible and they have to be born with it due to two carriers!!
> Bit thick ain't I?
> Just interested!


It's a hereditary condition, not an infectious one. They are either carriers or not, nothing can ever change that. Both parents have to carry it to produce hypokalemic kittens. I don't use studs that are unknown to me.

Liz


----------



## Aurelia

Liz I know it takes a carrier+carrier mating to produce the condition, thanks! My problem with your intentions is that you are knowingly breeding carriers, eventually somewhere down the line and accident is going to happen with at least one of the kittens you have bred. Unless you will not under any circumstance let anyone buy a kitten from you until it has been neutered?

You say you know what you're doing. I agree you do know what_ your _doing, but I don't think you realise how irresponsible it looks to the rest of us!

You don't even seem to be able to keep track of who's mating who, or even who has given birth to who! How can you be 100% certain that you never end up with 2 carriers mating in your own home? You didn't even notice your 8 month old boy mating your queen(s).

Liz you can make as many comments as you like about the fact I'm a newbie to breeding. It doesn't make what your doing right.


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> It's a hereditary condition, not an infectious one. They are either carriers or not, nothing can ever change that. Both parents have to carry it to produce hypokalemic kittens. * I don't use studs that are unknown to me.*Liz


 So how were Gordon and his brother conceived then?


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> So how were Gordon and his brother conceived then?


Um, by my own stud of course.

(shakes head)

Liz


----------



## Taylorbaby

does this thread have a point to it?


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Liz I know it takes a carrier+carrier mating to produce the condition, thanks! My problem with your intentions is that you are knowingly breeding carriers, eventually somewhere down the line and accident is going to happen with at least one of the kittens you have bred.


Well I suppose you could argue that carriers might find their way into the moggy gene pool. But do you know what? There are almost certainly carriers out there already, since this condition has been known for years. Fortunately the chances of a carrier meeting another carrier out in the moggy population are very low - think about it, how many Burmese colour restriction cats are out in the moggy population? The frequency of hypokalemic cats will be much lower since (obviously) not all Burmese carry hypokalemia.



> How can you be 100% certain that you never end up with 2 carriers mating in your own home?


If I should ever have a situation where two carriers mate, I will simply keep all the kittens until they are six months old, that is the maximum age at which this condition first shows itself.

Liz


----------



## lizward

Taylorbaby said:


> does this thread have a point to it?


I think the point is "let's all bash Liz" isn't it?

Liz


----------



## Biawhiska

certainly looks like it :eek6:


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Um, by my own stud of course.
> 
> (shakes head)
> 
> Liz


But you openly said you didn't know he was a carrier ... 



lizward said:


> Well I suppose you could argue that carriers might find their way into the moggy gene pool. But do you know what? There are almost certainly carriers out there already, since this condition has been known for years. Fortunately the chances of a carrier meeting another carrier out in the moggy population are very low - think about it, how many Burmese colour restriction cats are out in the moggy population? The frequency of hypokalemic cats will be much lower since (obviously) not all Burmese carry hypokalemia.
> 
> If I should ever have a situation where two carriers mate, I will simply keep all the kittens until they are six months old, that is the maximum age at which this condition first shows itself.
> 
> Liz


Liz this really is baffling me how you can't see it! Just because there is 'probably' moggies carrying out there, and because other breeders have it in their lines and continue to breed ... do you really think this is an excuse?

I'm aware that it is possible for this condition to arise in BSH, if (and I hope with all my heart it doesn't happen, because I would hate for any of my babies to suffer at all) it appeared in my lines, just once ... I would quit breeding.

Also, I'm interested now. If there is no test for hypokalemia how will you know if you have two carriers mate? And unless you keep every single kitten until they are 6 months old how will you know if their parents were carriers?


----------



## Tje

lizward said:


> I think the point is "let's all bash Liz" isn't it?


Liz, I really don't think you believe that anymore than I believe you were just having a pop at BBM and myself when you called her/us scaremongering panic merchants. You genuinely believe we are way too cautious, other people geuinely believe you are way too lax.


----------



## Aurelia

Taylorbaby said:


> does this thread have a point to it?


As a breeder youself don't you find this enlightening?



lizward said:


> I think the point is "let's all bash Liz" isn't it?
> 
> Liz


So you think people shouldn't question you? It's not bash Liz, if it was bashing it would be much worse.

As a newbie breeder (as you like to keep pointing out) I find things like this interesting at least. I'm still setting my own standards, and learning more and more. Threads like this help me do that, as I'm sure it does many others.


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> But you openly said you didn't know he was a carrier ...


O, you meant know all his genetic history. Obviously not, there is as yet no test for this gene, as I have said. Perhaps you think the whole breed should cease to exist because we have this issue?



> I'm aware that it is possible for this condition to arise in BSH, if (and I hope with all my heart it doesn't happen, because I would hate for any of my babies to suffer at all) it appeared in my lines, just once ... I would quit breeding.


Really, it's in BSH? That's bad news and I am truly sorry to hear it. I thought it was restricted to breeds developed from the Burmese. Or were Burmese used in British lines for some reason? Frankly though, if you give up that easily, you won't be in breeding long.



> Also, I'm interested now. If there is no test for hypokalemia how will you know if you have two carriers mate? And unless you keep every single kitten until they are 6 months old how will you know if their parents were carriers?


Ultimately you can only go by probabilities. So, for example, my second generation Burmilla girl had a total of 16 kittens with the boy who turned out to be a carrier. Since 1 in 4 kittens from two carrier parents can be expected to have the condition, when 16 have proved clear it looks unlikely that my girl is a carrier. The instant a hypokalemic kitten is produced, you simply remove both parents from the breeding programme.

Liz


----------



## Guest

Aurelia said:


> You don't even seem to be able to keep track of who's mating who, or even who has given birth to who! How can you be 100% certain that you never end up with 2 carriers mating in your own home? You didn't even notice your 8 month old boy mating your queen(s).


How can you not know who's mating who? Or is it different to breeding dogs?

My mother used to breed BSH but we only had one male at a time or we would use studs.

I have been reading this thread for a while now, its very informative.


----------



## sequeena

I've read the entire thread and I'm afraid I'm still not quite sure what's happening 

Can someone break it down into laymans terms? I've always been fond of lizward. Her along with other members helped a lot with Cotton's pregnancy


----------



## Tanya1989

I take a quiet back seat on the cat forum as I will openly admit I know nothing about cats.... But I have to say on this I am so shocked at the breeding ethics mentioned in this thread, and if it was in dogs, the kennel club would definitely revoke all future registration of progeny.

I am a little bit shocked that you would put importance over generations than the cats welfare. I am not a cat fan but that video of poor Gordon reduced me to tears. 

In dogs we have a condition called polyneuropathy which is hereditary, by recessive gene. If 2 dogs produce a pup with this dreadful disease, neither are used again, whether they are the the breed record holder or not, until such time as a genetic test is available to identify carriers to ensure they are only ever mated to clears.

NO BREEDING LINE WHETHER YOU'VE WORKED ON IT FOR 10YRS OR 50 YEARS IS MORE IMPORTANT TO PRESERVE THAN THAT OF HEALTHY PROGENY!


----------



## Guest

Tanya1989 said:


> I take a quiet back seat on the cat forum as I will openly admit I know nothing about cats.... But I have to say on this I am so shocked at the breeding ethics mentioned in this thread, and if it was in dogs, the kennel club would definitely revoke all future registration of progeny.


Have to agree.

My mentor has a CEA carrier...and she makes ALL bitches she mates him to have DNA CEA tests done before going to him.

She offered him to Alaska and I said no. I am getting the DNA tests done but I refuse to bring a carrier into my future line incase.


----------



## lizward

Tanya1989 said:


> In dogs we have a condition called polyneuropathy which is hereditary, by recessive gene. If 2 dogs produce a pup with this dreadful disease, neither are used again, whether they are the the breed record holder or not, until such time as a genetic test is available to identify carriers to ensure they are only ever mated to clears.
> 
> NO BREEDING LINE WHETHER YOU'VE WORKED ON IT FOR 10YRS OR 50 YEARS IS MORE IMPORTANT TO PRESERVE THAN THAT OF HEALTHY PROGENY!


Frankly I find it rather hard to believe that the kennel club takes breeding health more seriously than the GCCF!

One thing we have in GCCF which I think is great, is a genetic register where anything that might have, or is known to have, a hereditary condition, or anything else that the breed doesn't want, can be registered. Cat on that register can still be bred from but it is a warning flag. I think that it absolutely the right way forward.

Liz


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Really, it's in BSH? That's bad news and I am truly sorry to hear it. I thought it was restricted to breeds developed from the Burmese. Or were Burmese used in British lines for some reason? Frankly though, if you give up that easily, you won't be in breeding long.
> 
> Liz


Liz, if I know that, and you are implying it's wrong ... you really really need to do a bit more research.

I would give up breeding simply because I only have 1 line, and intend to breed small scale always. I won't keep dozens of cats with multiple lines thanks. So if one in my line falls foul of this terrible condition I would stop breeding, because that line ... my only line will be scrapped. I'm not gonna just go and start a new line!


----------



## Chez87

Tanya1989 said:


> In dogs we have a condition called polyneuropathy which is hereditary, by recessive gene. *If 2 dogs produce a pup with this dreadful disease, neither are used again,* whether they are the the breed record holder or not, until such time as a genetic test is available to identify carriers to ensure they are only ever mated to clears.


Sorry if I have got things confused, but isn't this what Liz says she does if a hypokalaemic kitten is born?


----------



## noushka05

Tanya1989 said:


> I take a quiet back seat on the cat forum as I will openly admit I know nothing about cats.... But I have to say on this I am so shocked at the breeding ethics mentioned in this thread, and if it was in dogs, the kennel club would definitely revoke all future registration of progeny.
> 
> I am a little bit shocked that you would put importance over generations than the cats welfare. I am not a cat fan but that video of poor Gordon reduced me to tears.
> 
> In dogs we have a condition called polyneuropathy which is hereditary, by recessive gene. If 2 dogs produce a pup with this dreadful disease, neither are used again, whether they are the the breed record holder or not, until such time as a genetic test is available to identify carriers to ensure they are only ever mated to clears.
> 
> NO BREEDING LINE WHETHER YOU'VE WORKED ON IT FOR 10YRS OR 50 YEARS IS MORE IMPORTANT TO PRESERVE THAN THAT OF HEALTHY PROGENY!


totally agree with Tanja here!...ive just been reading this tread and watched the video aswell and have to say im flippin gobsmacked, sorry op but however you could contemplate breeding cats with this horrendous condition is beyond me


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Frankly I find it rather hard to believe that the kennel club takes breeding health more seriously than the GCCF!
> 
> One thing we have in GCCF which I think is great, is a genetic register where anything that might have, or is known to have, a hereditary condition, or anything else that the breed doesn't want, can be registered. Cat on that register can still be bred from but it is a warning flag. I think that it absolutely the right way forward.
> 
> Liz


Have you registered your Liz?


----------



## Tje

shetlandlover said:


> How can you not know who's mating who? Or is it different to breeding dogs?
> 
> My mother used to breed BSH but we only had one male at a time or we would use studs.
> 
> I have been reading this thread for a while now, its very informative.


well.... if you have stud boys of around 8 months old running around inside the home (between the queens) ... a breeder may think this boy (these boys) haven't sexually matured yet, so its ok. Till... TADA!!!!.... girl gets pregnant. Then youre not sure which boy is the father. So thats how it happens the why, well I cant answer that. The breeders I know stop this happening by some form of seperation from around 6 months of age. Say boy cats upstairs, girls downstairs, that kind of thing.

as for the queens not knowing which mother is the mother of a kitten if you have two similar looking litters of similar ages, and theyre not caged on separated, then kittens can get muddled up, after a while you dont know which kitten is from which mother. Breeders I know stop this happening by keeping different litters in different rooms, or not having two litters in such short a space of time, or by using some means of identification (pink paper bands on the kittens belong to Missy, blue paper bands on the kittens belong to Daisy (that kind of thing).

it's basically just a case of having a lot of cats (male and female... complete) and not adhering to strict or secure seperation rules. Most breeders avoid "oops" litters quite easily. It's not that difficult at all to seperate.


----------



## lizward

Tanya1989 said:


> But I have to say on this I am so shocked at the breeding ethics mentioned in this thread, and if it was in dogs, the kennel club would definitely revoke all future registration of progeny.


Really? On what grounds? Don't you ever have instances of mismating in dogs? Don't you ever breed from offspring of carriers of a deleterious gene?

Liz


----------



## Tje

sequeena said:


> I've read the entire thread and I'm afraid I'm still not quite sure what's happening
> 
> Can someone break it down into laymans terms? I've always been fond of lizward. Her along with other members helped a lot with Cotton's pregnancy


If you mean the genetic things... sorry I can't. I can hardly follow the half of it. I understand all the simple things like problems not seperating queens and stud, not getting the kittens mothers' muddled up, but the genetic stuff goes wayyyy over my head.


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Have you registered your Liz?


It isn't an option in my breed - the BAC has to request it from the GCCF. I would certainly support making it a rule in my breed but I'm afraid as long as people keep denying it, that won't happen.

Liz


----------



## Guest

Tje said:


> well.... if you have stud boys of around 8 months old running around inside the home (between the queens) ... a breeder may think this boy (these boys) haven't sexually matured yet, so its ok. Till... TADA!!!!.... girl gets pregnant. Then youre not sure which boy is the father. So thats how it happens the why, well I cant answer that. The breeders I know stop this happening by some form of seperation from around 6 months of age.


Ahh.

Kai only goes near Alaska when I am around and watching them, if I leave the room Alaska comes with me. Then when shes in season we rotate the house Alaska out for a few hours, Kai out for a few hours.


----------



## Tanya1989

lizward said:


> Frankly I find it rather hard to believe that the kennel club takes breeding health more seriously than the GCCF!
> 
> One thing we have in GCCF which I think is great, is a genetic register where anything that might have, or is known to have, a hereditary condition, or anything else that the breed doesn't want, can be registered. Cat on that register can still be bred from but it is a warning flag. I think that it absolutely the right way forward.
> 
> Liz


It wasn't a way of turning the thread into a bitch fight between the KC and the GCCF... It was more of comment regarding that if dog breeders were to be as laid back about breeding practises as what this thread mentions and the KC were to find out there would be serious consequences for that breeder. By the sounds of it from your post above, so would the GCCF.

Can I ask you a question, without any bitchiness from either party... but can you genuinely not see a fault with your breeding ethics here? I can't work out if you genuinely think you have done right by your cats and their lines, or if you know you have made a mistake?

I'm sorry if that sounds rude and abrupt, but I don't know you well enough to judge for myself whether you are a breeder who has made a boo boo or if you just burying your head in the sand.


----------



## Guest

Tje said:


> Liz, I really don't think you believe that anymore than I believe you were just having a pop at BBM and myself when you called her/us scaremongering panic merchants. You genuinely believe we are way too cautious, other people geuinely believe you are way too lax.


BBM! a scaremonger I don't think so! A realist maybe! A scaremonger NEVER!


----------



## NicoleW

Sorry to barge in, I'm not intending to be rude or offensive I wanted to ask a question.

Why do you have so many cats and still breed them? I personally couldn't cope with that many! I'd tear my hair out lol after they've eaten me out of house and home.


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Liz, if I know that, and you are implying it's wrong ... you really really need to do a bit more research.


Sorry I don't understand this comment.

Liz


----------



## Guest

Excuse me! but can I interupt you lot for a moment please! Seeing as you are all so interested in cats like!

But can you take a breather please and start round two 
WHEN

You have ALL been over to Nina;s thread ONE FINAL PUSH:thumbup:
copied below! and voted for her cat! 
T'is for charity:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

thanks in advance, your vote is much appreciated!
lots of love
DT
xxxxxxxx

Regular pf members will know how passionate I am about animal welfare and will take any opportunity to raise funds for rescue.

A week ago I asked you all to please vote for HARICAT in the Hannah Basket photo competition. She is only 27 votes behind now, so we need you to vote each day until the end of November please. Cats Protection in Hemel are really stretched right now and are so over crowded there is a waiting list!

All you need to do is click on 'Haricat' scroll down to the bottom and vote. It only takes a minute and you will be helping Cats Protection if we win 

VCats


----------



## lizward

Tanya1989 said:


> Can I ask you a question, without any bitchiness from either party... but can you genuinely not see a fault with your breeding ethics here? I can't work out if you genuinely think you have done right by your cats and their lines, or if you know you have made a mistake?
> 
> I'm sorry if that sounds rude and abrupt, but I don't know you well enough to judge for myself whether you are a breeder who has made a boo boo or if you just burying your head in the sand.


If you mean have I done anything wrong by breeding from hypokalemic cats, when I had no way to know they were hypokalemic, no I haven't. As for accidental matings, yes they happen. I am not the first breeder to have had an accidental mating and I will not be the last.

I will tell you one thing though. Anyone else here who has had such a thing isn't going to admit to it now, that's for sure.

Liz


----------



## lizward

NicoleW said:


> Sorry to barge in, I'm not intending to be rude or offensive I wanted to ask a question.
> 
> Why do you have so many cats and still breed them? I personally couldn't cope with that many! I'd tear my hair out lol after they've eaten me out of house and home.


There are plenty of cat breeders who have as many as me or more. You retire and rehome them, then you move on a generation.

Liz


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## NicoleW

Aww that must be quite nice actually, I don't think I could ever breed an animal. I'd be too paranoid I'd sell them to horrible people, that and I couldn't give them up so I'd end up looking like an animal hotel.


----------



## noushka05

lizward said:


> If you mean have I done anything wrong by breeding from hypokalemic cats, when I had no way to know they were hypokalemic, no I haven't. As for accidental matings, yes they happen. I am not the first breeder to have had an accidental mating and I will not be the last.
> 
> I will tell you one thing though. Anyone else here who has had such a thing isn't going to admit to it now, that's for sure.
> 
> Liz


arnt you an established experienced breeder tho?


----------



## lizward

Chez87 said:


> Sorry if I have got things confused, but isn't this what Liz says she does if a hypokalaemic kitten is born?


Yes that is what I did. The "We hate Liz" feeling is now so strong here that many people are conveniently forgetting that 

I went 52 pages on a thread under "general" once (nothing to do with any animals) so this is nothing 

Liz


----------



## Guest

Erm excuse me!
Did you not read my post re Nina needing your help?


----------



## Starlite

lizward said:


> .I will tell you one thing though. Anyone else here who has had such a thing isn't going to admit to it now, that's for sure.
> 
> Liz


I had an accidental mating with my moggy Squeak and I was mortified, I went on a night out and OH put her out because he couldnt stand her yowling - believe me he got a right bollocking!!
All the kittens were rehomes with people i know very well (i still see them all and my mum has 2), had them vaccs, deflead wormed by the vet and asked for a donation to be made to the SSPCA

As soon as the kits went to their new homes Squeak was spayed, i will never have such a thing occur again. I ADMIT it, but i didnt have such a carefree attitude about it all!


----------



## Tje

DoubleTrouble said:


> BBM! a scaremonger I don't think so! A realist maybe! A scaremonger NEVER!


oh I *totally* agree with you DT. BBM was the first one I turned to recently when I was sat with a dying kitten on my lap. I value her advice a HELL OF A lot. If BBM said "vet" -- my ar$e would be out the front door in minutes. Simple as. She knows her onions. She is uber-responsible!


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> If you mean have I done anything wrong by breeding from hypokalemic cats, when I had no way to know they were hypokalemic, no I haven't. *As for accidental matings, yes they happen. I am not the first breeder to have had an accidental mating and I will not be the last.*


Liz, that does not make it right. If you have accidents, you have too many cats or you are not being careful enough IMO.



lizward said:


> I will tell you one thing though. Anyone else here who has had such a thing isn't going to admit to it now, that's for sure.
> 
> Liz


You're probably right. But also something good might come of it. People who think like you, or look up to you might think again, and adjust their breeding practises now they can see how terribly wrong it appears to be!


----------



## thelioncub

Aurelia said:


> Liz, if I know that, and you are implying it's wrong ... you really really need to do a bit more research.


I'm just wondering if there has been a bit of confusion in all this. As far as I understand, there are two types of Hypokalaemia - a non-genetic type which affects older cats of ANY breed (linked with CRF, excessive potassium loss etc) and a type of hypokalemic myopathy which is hereditary in the Burmese breed (causing periodic muscle weakness) I am assuming that Liz is talking about the second type, whereas perhaps others are taking this to believe she doesn't 'know her stuff' because they are thinking of the first type.

Misunderstanding maybe? - so in essence, you are both equally right.


----------



## billyboysmammy

aww shucks you guys!



Back to hypokalemia.... i have to admit to being concerned about ALL the other breeds which have shared genes with the burmese directly or indirectly.

cornish rex
devon rex
la perm
all the asian breeds
exotic shorthair 
abyssinian

They all have direct history with burmese either in breed development or as outcrossing. I realise we dont know exactly when the rogue gene occurred, so some of the historical breed links may not apply.

Then you have the breeds which are indirectly related. The rex breeds can be crossed with a variety of other breeds. Exotics share history with at least 2 other breeds aswell. It doesnt take much of a stretch of the imagination to see an unscrupulous breeder adding in their crossed kittens to a breeding programme. 

I have direct confirmation from an unscrupulous BSH breeder that she has added a persian into her lines to plush up her coat and fraudulently manipulated the pedigree, and another from a siamese breeder who added a 2nd generation rex cross (who didnt carry the rex gene) back into her siamese programme because the "type" was so good. Its wrong and it appalls me... but what about the consequenses!

The breeders which allow this to happen are the same ones who could unwittingly introduced the rogue genes for hypokalemia into another pedigree breed


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Yes that is what I did. The "We hate Liz" feeling is now so strong here that many people are conveniently forgetting that
> 
> I went 52 pages on a thread under "general" once (nothing to do with any animals) so this is nothing
> 
> Liz


Liz ... Gordon's mum. Did you get her spayed after the birth, and was this the only litter she has had? Same with the stud?

+ TLC, I think BBm did an excellent job of explaining what I mean. No I wasn't talking about a different 'type'.


----------



## thelioncub

Aurelia said:


> + TLC, I think BBm did an excellent job of explaining what I mean. No I wasn't talking about a different 'type'.


Yeah she did! Sorry - I didn't mean to sound patronising, it was just something that occurred to me in the sense that often there is a lot of confusion when people make assumptions.

Out of interest.. is there confirmed hypokalaemia (the type which we know affects the Burmese lines) in other breeds. Yes it is naturally a concern for all breeds that are crossed with these lines - and I totally understand what BBM is saying, but is it something that we know for sure affects other breeds?


----------



## archiebaby

noushka05 said:


> totally agree with Tanja here!...ive just been reading this tread and watched the video aswell and have to say im flippin gobsmacked, sorry op but however you could contemplate breeding cats with this horrendous condition is beyond me


just butting in where can the video be seen of ' gordon' ?


----------



## Starlite

archiebaby said:


> just butting in where can the video be seen of ' gordon' ?


 this is the wee man here hun

YouTube - Gordon the Hypokalemic kitten


----------



## noushka05

archiebaby said:


> just butting in where can the video be seen of ' gordon' ?


here you are YouTube - Gordon the Hypokalemic kitten


----------



## Atlantys

archiebaby said:


> just butting in where can the video be seen of ' gordon' ?


YouTube - Gordon the Hypokalemic kitten


----------



## Atlantys

SNAP! :lol::lol:

Not that it's a laughing matter, sadly.


----------



## Guest

Atlantys said:


> SNAP! :lol::lol:
> 
> Not that it's a laughing matter, sadly.


At least if the first link fails there are two more. :lol:

No, its not funny the video is very sad. :frown:


----------



## billyboysmammy

thelioncub said:


> Yeah she did! Sorry - I didn't mean to sound patronising, it was just something that occurred to me in the sense that often there is a lot of confusion when people make assumptions.
> 
> Out of interest.. is there confirmed hypokalaemia (the type which we know affects the Burmese lines) in other breeds. Yes it is naturally a concern for all breeds that are crossed with these lines - and I totally understand what BBM is saying, but is it something that we know for sure affects other breeds?


no we dont know for sure, but it has the potential to be a ticking time bomb. As far as we know its still a fairly rare genetic condition (obviously depending on mis-diagnosis and breeders hiding it) which means it could be hiding in the background waiting to hit


----------



## archiebaby

Starlite said:


> this is the wee man here hun
> 
> YouTube - Gordon the Hypokalemic kitten


thank you starlite
but surely with this video liz is trying to do something about this problem isnt she she is at least trying to get people to send samples in so maybe something can be done and not just sitting back doing nothing


----------



## archiebaby

noushka05 said:


> here you are YouTube - Gordon the Hypokalemic kitten





Atlantys said:


> YouTube - Gordon the Hypokalemic kitten


thank you both


----------



## billyboysmammy

archiebaby said:


> thank you starlite
> but surely with this video liz is trying to do something about this problem isnt she she is at least trying to get people to send samples in so maybe something can be done and not just sitting back doing nothing


I agree with you, liz has been campaining actively for breeders to take responsibility of this.

The trouble is this thread has gone on so many tangents that we are now discussing hypokalemia , which really has no bearing on her own breeding ethics or in fact directly linked with the two litters who are currently awaiting their maternity and paternity tests!


----------



## archiebaby

billyboysmammy said:


> I agree with you, liz has been campaining actively for breeders to take responsibility of this.
> 
> The trouble is this thread has gone on so many tangents that we are now discussing hypokalemia , which really has no bearing on her own breeding ethics or in fact directly linked with the two litters who are currently awaiting their maternity and paternity tests!


i think this thread has everyone a little confused, you almost forget what the thread was about
but i do take my hat off to liz for trying to do something about this terrible disease and if a lot more breeders out there whose cat had this were more open like herself then something could surely be done about it


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Liz ... Gordon's mum. Did you get her spayed after the birth, and was this the only litter she has had? Same with the stud?


 No I've been breeding with both ever since, I think hypokalemic kittens are cute.


----------



## NicoleW

That made me lol


----------



## Aurelia

lizward said:


> No I've been breeding with both ever since, I think hypokalemic kittens are cute.


Sarcasm aside Liz ... I meant were they both first timers? As in, before the queen produced Gordon and his brother, had she had a previous litter, or had the stud?


----------



## Biawhiska

very nosey aren't you? if it was me i'd be telling you to mind your own :eek6:


----------



## Guest

Biawhiska said:


> very nosey aren't you? if it was me i'd be telling you to mind your own :eek6:


I think you will find Aurelia is only asking out of the interest of the cats. 
Aurelia cares about the cats as does Liz.


----------



## Aurelia

Biawhiska said:


> very nosey aren't you? if it was me i'd be telling you to mind your own :eek6:


:lol: You might see why in a mo if Liz is kind enough to answer


----------



## Biawhiska

oh right, but still, it's like some kind of police interview.


----------



## lizward

Aurelia said:


> Sarcasm aside Liz ... I meant were they both first timers? As in, before the queen produced Gordon and his brother, had she had a previous litter, or had the stud?


Both had, but not with each other. The stud had many litters, he was five years old.

Liz


----------



## Starlite

To me its like breeding from a dog with a higher than acceptable hip score, you have the facts and still insist on taking the risk. I think more of my animals than that

Is it normal for cat breeders to have a few litters on the go at any given time?
Also, do they live in mansions with their large breeding stock, wouldnt you need to?

Yes Liz has DNA tested the kits but if she had watched her cats properly in the 1st place it wouldnt have happened! Very worrying imo


----------



## sequeena

Is it something that's happened often or is this the first time?

Nobody is infallible... didn't swarthy have an accidental mating a while back (sorry to bring your name into it if you're not involved mate!)?


----------



## lizward

Starlite said:


> Is it normal for cat breeders to have a few litters on the go at any given time?


Yes. Don't forget, cats have smaller litters than dogs. I microchipped a litter of 12 Irish Setter puppies this morning, now THEY would be a handful!

Liz


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## Aurelia

lizward said:


> Both had, but not with each other. The stud had many litters, he was five years old.
> 
> Liz


I suspected this  Not derogatory towards you Liz, as like you say there is no test as yet.

However can you tell me (and everyone else) what steps you have taken since you discovered they were carriers once the boys were born?

I mean did you contact all the new owners of any offspring? Had they all had their babies neutered before, or even after your discovery? Had any of their offspring gone on to become breeding kitties themselves?

I'm interested to know because I heard a story recently about another breeder who discovered a problem in their lines, and how I heard they sorted it blew my mind, in a good way.


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## lizward

sequeena said:


> Is it something that's happened often or is this the first time?


I had two queens give birth within a day of one another and, because two of the kittens were the same colour and the Mums pooled their litters, I don't know which one belongs to which queen. It's a terrible crime apparently. Unfortunately I had a 7 month old boy in the house who appears to be the father of one of the litters, another terrible crime. The financial loss is mine and why it should so offend anyone else is a mystery to me.

Liz


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## sequeena

lizward said:


> I had two queens give birth within a day of one another and, because two of the kittens were the same colour and the Mums pooled their litters, I don't know which one belongs to which queen. It's a terrible crime apparently. Unfortunately I had a 7 month old boy in the house who appears to be the father of one of the litters, another terrible crime. The financial loss is mine and why it should so offend anyone else is a mystery to me.
> 
> Liz


Hi, thanks Liz for making it clearer. It's not an ideal situation but it's not the worst thing I've heard. I'd say if anything my own situation was worse...

You seem to be doing everything you can


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## lizward

Aurelia said:


> I suspected this  Not derogatory towards you Liz, as like you say there is no test as yet.
> 
> However can you tell me (and everyone else) what steps you have taken since you discovered they were carriers once the boys were born?
> 
> I mean did you contact all the new owners of any offspring? Had they all had their babies neutered before, or even after your discovery? Had any of their offspring gone on to become breeding kitties themselves?
> 
> I'm interested to know because I heard a story recently about another breeder who discovered a problem in their lines, and how I heard they sorted it blew my mind, in a good way.


Some of his offspring were sired before he ever came to me. The ones he sired after he came to me included some active register kittens, including two that had been bred from, and yes of course I told the owners. They were offered the otion to return the cats for a full refund.

You might not like my breeding practices but I can tell you that as far as dealing with other humans is concerned, you will not find a more ethical breeder anywhere.

Liz


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## Tje

Starlite said:


> To me its like breeding from a dog with a higher than acceptable hip score, you have the facts and still insist on taking the risk. I think more of my animals than that


although I know very little about genetics... I would never breed if there was even a fairly small risk of a fairly mild disease, let alone a bad disease and a high risk.



Starlite said:


> Is it normal for cat breeders to have a few litters on the go at any given time?


Depends on your definition of normal I suppose. The breeders I know always plan so their litters don't arrive at the same time. I remember last year that one friend had one queen who gave birth when the other queen's kittens were about 8 weeks old. Maybe not ideal, but at least even a blind man can spot which kittens belong to which mother. And the first litter is moving to their new homes by the time the next litter are getting to the walking (jumping climbing!!) around stage. I worry though about the spread of disease when there are two litters on the go simultaneously. But guess that's me just being a scaremongering panic-merchant again, hehe!!



Starlite said:


> Also, do they live in mansions with their large breeding stock, wouldnt you need to?


*I* would need to... yes, but I am not everyone, lol. My friends who breed cats have nowhere near as many cats as Liz does, and one of them does live in a very large house. I think the more cats you have in a "normal sized" home, the more chance you are going to have of "oops litters" and "ehhhhhh which mum does this kitten belong to" and "hmmmm, she's pregnant, wonder who the dad is"



Starlite said:


> Yes Liz has DNA tested the kits but if she had watched her cats properly in the 1st place it wouldnt have happened! Very worrying imo


Can't disagree with you.... it's playing with fire... but the last time I said that Liz called me a drama queen!


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## Aurelia

lizward said:


> I had two queens give birth within a day of one another and, because two of the kittens were the same colour and the Mums pooled their litters, I don't know which one belongs to which queen. It's a terrible crime apparently. Unfortunately I had a 7 month old boy in the house who appears to be the father of one of the litters, another terrible crime. The financial loss is mine and why it should so offend anyone else is a mystery to me.
> 
> Liz


Liz, TJE made some very clear points on breeding and separation amongst breeding stock earlier. She is 100% right and she's not even a breeder. However she does have to deal with the fall out when things are done the wrong way, so she has a valid reason for stating those points.

You had two lots of kittens within a day of each other because you chose to. They pooled their litters because you let them. Your 7 month old boy mated your queen(s) because you didn't move him, or at least keep an eye on him.

None of that is accidental, just lax IMO.


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## billyboysmammy

lizward said:


> I had two queens give birth within a day of one another and, because two of the kittens were the same colour and the Mums pooled their litters, I don't know which one belongs to which queen. It's a terrible crime apparently. Unfortunately I had a 7 month old boy in the house who appears to be the father of one of the litters, another terrible crime. The financial loss is mine and why it should so offend anyone else is a mystery to me.
> 
> Liz


Liz that isnt really what has upset most people.

I am not going to give a full list of what I feel is lacking as that encourages a witch hunt, suffice to say for me this litter is just a teensy part of that. My biggest bug bear is your attitude towards breeding - but then you know that, as I am the scaremonger :thumbup:. We are polar opposites on this.

I posted this earlier, and it prevents me typing it up again.


> As for liz's work with the maus and other similar litters she has my utmost admiration and support, and as she knows i greatly admire her for her work on hypokalemia.
> 
> That to me isnt an excuse for some of the breeding practices she has employed. I'm not talking so much about this litter, but the general admission of allowing unspeyed queens to wander the neighbourhood, general attitudes and mixing litters so even the mothers cant be distinguished, amongst other things.
> 
> This shouldnt be a witch hunt, it should be a discussion. Trying to have all breeders question their own practices so the same doesnt happen to them and to have people see a different point of view (that includes me!). Anyone involved with animals has their own routines and they can become outdated and viewed as irresponsible over time. What was once acceptable is no longer. Surely if you are a good person with your animals welfare at heart you can regonise this and would make any necessary changes.
> 
> I am not for a minute suggesting liz doesnt care about her pets, thats blatantly not true, but for me some of her practices leave alot to be desired.


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## lizward

Tje said:


> Depends on your definition of normal I suppose. The breeders I know always plan so their litters don't arrive at the same time.


And if you have two litters together, you can save yourself huge problems if something goes wrong and one of the queens cannot feed her litter.

Liz


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## Guest

How many cats do you have Liz?

I agree about the having to have a large house. I moved so I could have room if/when I breed Alaska.


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## lizward

Aurelia said:


> You had two lots of kittens within a day of each other because you chose to. They pooled their litters because you let them.


When you have a little more experience, you will understand that this is fairly common practice, and you will understand why.

Liz


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## Tje

lizward said:


> Yes. Don't forget, cats have smaller litters than dogs. I microchipped a litter of 12 Irish Setter puppies this morning, now THEY would be a handful!
> 
> Liz


Liz, this was your answer in reply to this question



> Is it normal for cat breeders to have a few litters on the go at any given time?


Sorry, but I am disputing how "normal" this is! I really do think it might be totally normal for some breeders -- and totally abnormal for other breeders

One friend... out of 25-ish litters she has only once had 2 litters on the go at the same time, with a good 7 or 8 weeks between the 2 litters.

I am NOT stating this because I want you to change the way you do things. I am stating this for the benefit of people who don't know the norms in cat breeding circles.

So to sum up.... what's normal for A is abnormal for B.


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## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> How many cats do you have Liz?


22 including kittens

Liz


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## NicoleW

One man's beef is another man's poison.


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## Guest

lizward said:


> 22 including kittens
> 
> Liz


How many without kittens?


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## Aurelia

lizward said:


> When you have a little more experience, you will understand that this is fairly common practice, and you will understand why.
> 
> Liz


There you go again :lol:

Liz my mentor does have two litters on the go sometimes, and I do understand why. It's not something I would choose to do personally though. Besides it's only 1 of the three things in your quote that I pointed out. For a breeding to do all three things is really lax IMO, and that's not even the half of it!


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## Tje

lizward said:


> And if you have two litters together, you can save yourself huge problems if something goes wrong and one of the queens cannot feed her litter.
> 
> Liz


yes, tell me about it. I have lost track of the times I have driven kittens from A to B so they could have a "mother" ..... and I am not knocking surrogate mothering..... I do however fail to see how you can get kittens and their mothers muddled up. It's soooo easy not to. Either pen the mums, keep them in seperate rooms, or I.D the kittens. It's really not rocket science Liz. A bottle of nail polish and 2 minutes of work could have avoided this problem. That way (penning, seperating or IDing kittens) you have all the benefits of a "spare mum waiting in the wings" with none of the disadvantages of a not knowing which kittens belong to which mother.


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## lizward

shetlandlover said:


> How many without kittens?


eleven

Liz


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## Aurelia

lizward said:


> 22 including kittens
> 
> Liz


Wowsers! Do you live in a big house Liz? and do you have lots of runs outside?

Crikey, my house is fairly big, I couldn't imagine having that many cats all at once :lol:


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## Guest

lizward said:


> eleven
> 
> Liz


Your brave. I have enough with my 3. :lol:


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## billyboysmammy

Starlite said:


> Is it normal for cat breeders to have a few litters on the go at any given time?


I can only speak from my experience as a foster personally, although i could draw from other breeder friends experiences .... i'll just stick to my experience.

Anyway I once fostered 3 queens together (well it was actually 4 but one had 10 week old kittens who were about to leave) due to a shortage of fosterers.

Those queens had over 25 kittens between them 

As they are fosters you can never be quite sure of the dates, and one girl i was convinced had a few weeks to go as she wasnt very big (she had 9!).

I feel i failed those kittens, because i couldnt give each of them the individual attention i could normally give to one or two smaller litters. They took longer to litter train and their cuddleability (is that a word?) was a little less than usual. They also had to have shifts downstairs getting used to all the sounds and smells of the house, because 25 of the little sods running around my living room was just crazy!

Daily weigh ins took hours, all that topping up, weaning was a nightmare... you get hte picture.

I know its an exeption for all 3 girls to have large litters, but had it only been 2 girls i would have managed much much better.

I will NEVER foster 3 queens again at the same time.

I do like to have 2 girls to foster wherever possible, as its always better to have a 2nd queen to adopt any kittens from another queens larger litter, however if i was a show breeder i'm not sure i would risk that cross infection. It IS a risk, and higher for moggies of undeterminate histories (although they are tested before coming to me for the major diseases) its a risk i feel is worth taking with the rescues. If I have an orphan litter i also like a queen and her litter in the house too - so that the kittens can mix for socialisation, again i would have to think long and hard about doing that with pedigrees.

As a rule all my litters (with the exeption of emergencies) are kept seperate until the kittens are mobile weaning and exploring - around 7 weeks. They come downstairs to the living room to meet the other housecats, dogs and kids from 3 weeks.

I'm not suggesting peds are worth more love than moggies/rescues just that in the cases of undersocialised queens and indeterminate parentage kittens anything that makes them sociable little cuddle monsters is worth the risk to make them more adaptable and "homeable" pets.

Hope i have made sense! its late and my brain is addled after today!


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## Tje

lizward said:


> When you have a little more experience, you will understand that this is fairly common practice, and you will understand why.
> 
> Liz


Liz... sorry .... again.... even breeders on their 25th litter CHOOSE not to have two litters simultaneously!! Horses for courses Liz. Maybe 50 years from now Aurelia will still choose to have no more than one litter at any one time. It's not very fair to imply she only has this stance because she is relatively inexperienced numbers wise... like I say, I know breeders with 30+ years in the "business" and they have no more than 2 queens at any one time and each has (plus minus) 1 litter per year. Never at the same time. So that's 60 odd litters and no double litters or palying "whose your mummmy".

I do admit it happens... I just doubt your use of the word "fairly common practice". Horses for courses. What's common for some folks is a rarity for other folks.


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## lizward

Tje said:


> Either pen the mums, keep them in seperate rooms, or I.D the kittens. It's really not rocket science Liz. A bottle of nail polish and 2 minutes of work could have avoided this problem. That way (penning, seperating or IDing kittens) you have all the benefits of a "spare mum waiting in the wings" with none of the disadvantages of a not knowing which kittens belong to which mother.


And why exactly does it offend you that I am not sure which of two kittens belongs to which mother? Who is paying the DNA test fees? Me!

Liz


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## lizward

Tje said:


> Liz... sorry .... again.... even breeders on their 25th litter CHOOSE not to have two litters simultaneously!! Horses for courses Liz. Maybe 50 years from now Aurelia will still choose to have no more than one litter at any one time. It's not very fair to imply she only has this stance because she is relatively inexperienced numbers wise...


I said it wad fairly common practice, not that it was universal practice. When she has more experience, she will undertand the arguments for and against.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy

lizward said:


> And why exactly does it offend you that I am not sure which of two kittens belongs to which mother? Who is paying the DNA test fees? Me!
> 
> Liz


because there is 2 litters of kittens who should be in their new homes

because this is easily prevented

because if you had prevented it you wouldnt have had to waste money on dna testing

I know a DNA test can rectify the situation, but your recent comments make it clear that pooling litters is something you commonly practice.


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## Taylorbaby

hasnt this thread run its course now??


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## Guest

lizward said:


> And why exactly does it offend you that I am not sure which of two kittens belongs to which mother? Who is paying the DNA test fees? Me!
> 
> Liz


I dont think its that it offends....more than it pee's people off.
I dont want to seem nasty or anything so please dont take this wrong, but I guess its because you could have seperated the mums and kittens so you wouldnt need DNA tests...as a breeder you are suppost to be organised and plan these things in detail.

When Alaska breeds we will be holding a bitch back and using both to Kai, if for some reason Alaska and otehr bitch had a litter at the same time they would be seperate and have ID collars on them as well as having them documented on a database so I knew who had what and when and what they looked like, how much they ate, weighed and so on.

I wouldnt have been happy if Alaska's breeder had DNA tested her to find her mother..I would have more than likely gone else where because if they cant be organised with the puppies what could they offer me as a future breeder.

Anyway, its not a dig...just explaining.


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## Tje

lizward said:


> I said it wad fairly common practice, not that it was universal practice. When she has more experience, she will undertand the arguments for and against.
> 
> Liz


Aurelia's a new breeder, not a backward simpleton.... I am sure Aurelia (and anyone else for that matter) can see the pros and cons quite easily now. You don't have to rear 15 litters to understand a basic principle.


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## Aurelia

lizward said:


> I said it wad fairly common practice, not that it was universal practice. When she has more experience, she will undertand the arguments for and against.
> 
> Liz


Liz why do you assume I don't know these things? :lol: I do, like I have already said!


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## lizward

billyboysmammy said:


> because there is 2 litters of kittens who should be in their new homes


O dear, poor things, they are really upset about that.



> because if you had prevented it you wouldnt have had to waste money on dna testing


My money, why should it worry you?



> I know a DNA test can rectify the situation, but your recent comments make it clear that pooling litters is something you commonly practice.


Yes, along with many other breeders. Fortunately with my breed it is usually very easy to tell the difference as there are so many colour and pattern options

Liz


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## Tje

shetlandlover said:


> I dont think its that it offends....more than it pee's people off.
> I dont want to seem nasty or anything so please dont take this wrong, but I guess its because you could have seperated the mums and kittens so you wouldnt need DNA tests...as a breeder you are suppost to be organised and plan these things in detail.
> 
> Anyway, its not a dig...just explaining.


thanks for explaining that perfectly Shetlandlover - it saves me! Indeed it doesn't OFFEND me, nothing OFFENDS me.... I just hate to see such easy to avoid things going wrong, but accept they do go wrong. It's the blasé attitude that really does my head in.

(Liz... "does my head in" not to be confused with "offends me" and yes thanks I have been out twice this week, have tomorrow off, a short trip planned in a fortnights time and have an annual holiday booked for January.)


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## billyboysmammy

lizward said:


> *O dear, poor things, they are really upset about that.*
> I doubt the kittens themselves are bothered, but they should be in their new homes being spoiled rotten by new owners and not adding to your numbers (apart from any you are holding back of course).
> 
> *My money, why should it worry you?*
> It just seems such a shame to waste money. I'm a yorkshire lass - wasting money is against my genes :arf:
> 
> *Yes, along with many other breeders. Fortunately with my breed it is usually very easy to tell the difference as there are so many colour and pattern options*
> Absoloutly, and as i have said I do something similar (adopt kittens onto another queen) with my fosters when necessary. Only when necessary though, and Its not something i would risk with the cross infection as a general rule or with pedigree show cats.
> 
> Liz


sorry for doing it that way, my brain wont let me work out the quote by section bit tonight!


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## westie~ma

Good evening 

This thread is going round in circles now so I'm going to close it.

Thank you, it's been an informative read before bedtime


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