# Can't cope anymore! Exhausted, and worried about Oscar :(



## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Hi all,

I am turning to online help because I don't know who else to ask about my cat Oscar.

I've had him around 6 years now. He's coming up to 8 years old. He was a rescue cat.

He was about 4.2kg when I rescued him, but now he is probably about 5.6kg and I'm concerned about his health with him being overweight.

My problem is his constant crying for food and generally causing havoc when he wants food. He can be aggressive too, grabbing my legs etc. And its not nice for him because it must be causing him stress and anxiety. Sometimes the crying goes on from when I get home in the evening all the way through to the morning when I get up for work :-(

I have had countless visits to the vets regarding this, and everything I have tried just hasn't worked:

- playing & attention only works for a while, he cries for food afterwards.
- hiding food & putting food in the things where he has to work to get it out - he just gives up and cries.
- a cat feeder which goes round at certain times.
- ignoring him - there's only so much yowling, crying & scratching I can take and this is when I give in and feed him a handful of food out of his automatic feeder. This is really bad (I know) because he will associate the feeder with me, and he knows I can give him food when he wants it. When he is crying for food he stands by his feeder, or if I enter the kitchen he will run after me and cry (his feeder is in the kitchen).
- feliway plugin to try and calm him
- I have also tried Aktivait but he won't eat the food with it mixed in. He probably would if I could mix it with cooked meat?

He has had gastro problems since I got him so the vet suggested a dry food diet, but I think that may be part of the problem. How boring must it be for him to eat the same everyday? Surely I can feed him plain cooked meats when I'm making chicken, beef, turkey, fish etc? It was the canned food from the supermarkets which was making him ill. Maybe a mixture of dry food and cooked meat? Do high protein foods fill cats up too? He is currently eating the Royal Canin Feline Satiety Support dry food, and has been for some years now. How many times should I be feeding him daily, based on the kind of food I can give him? He currently has two main meals in the morning and evening, but also two small snacks overnight.

He used to be an outdoor cat, but for the past 8 months I have been keeping him indoors. There are a lot of cats where I live, and he used to fight regularly and get minor injures which meant lots of visits to the vets. I didn't mind this too much but towards the end of last year he was badly beaten up. He had to have a lot of treatment - an operation on his paw, sedation, x-rays, anti-biotics etc and it was traumatic for him. I guess it was the final straw and I thought it was unfair of me to let him keep getting injured by other cats. His behavior hasn't worsted since I have been keeping him, but he will obliviously be getting less exercise. I play with him daily for 15 minutes, is this enough to help him lose weight? I have one of those feathers on the end of stick which he loves and a lot of other toys.

He has always been spoiled and he gets what he wants, and so my behavior has contributed towards the issue. What do I need to do to help Oscar?

My plan was to give him a variety of food (with Aktivait), lots of exercise and ignore him when he cries and NOT give in. I just don't want him to think I'm being cruel by ignoring him.

If anyone can help or has any suggestions I would really appreciate it.

Kind regards
J


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## Cerijoanne (Jun 28, 2015)

Hi...I don't want to say to much as I'm sure you will get some fab expert advice soon from some of our very knowledgeable fur friends here in a minute...but thought it was a sad situation for you to be in reading this. Poor you...and poor cat as he must be really stressed. What i do know is 15minutes play exercise is definatly not enough for him as he is now indoors. Couldn't you get some safe fencing or a run out your garden for him? He needs chaser wands and activities too. Like the feather on a stick you say. ..more than 15 minutes though. What about also trying things like "plague rats" too? My cats love these..Google them and look them up. Diet is a massive factor in a cats behaviour too. You can get high content meat wet food online which are much better for him @ zoops.com. You could also try to integrate some raw into his diet to eg...raw chicken wings...they usually like small chunks to start. I hope you get some good advice soon and his behaviour can slowly change!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Hiya,

Personally, I'd say a dried food diet is definitely part of the problem. Cats are obligate carnivores, which means a high protein diet is normal for them - meat, meat and more meat! Most dry foods, however, are mainly plant based - crazy, but true!

Sadly lot of vets don't know much about feline nutrition (and what they do know in many cases can be just what they are told by pet food companies), as it's not an area they get much training on in vet college. A lot of dried foods are mainly grain based with loads of sugars added to make it addictive to cats, and therefore make cats put on weight very easily! Dry food is also bad for cats in another way as cats do not have a thirst drive - naturally they get 90%+ of their water from their prey, and dry food is only 10% water. That can also cause problems due to constant moderate dehydration, as though a cat on dry food will drink more, they can't physically drink enough to make up for the deficit caused by the dry food.

A lot of wet foods also have a lot of grains and sugars in them, but it is getting ever easier to find grain free wet food. Butchers Classic, for example, is actually a lot cheaper than the grain lader Whiskas anf Felix brands, but is grain free and loved by my two mogs. If you are willing to shop online, then you have loads of options - Zooplus carry a wide range of grain free foods such as Smilla, Animonda Carny, Bozita, Grau, CatzFineFood, and The Happy Kitty Company (VERY good company indeed) carry only grain free foods suchg as MAC, Granatapert and Om Nom Nom.

Or, if you have the freezer space, you can experiment with raw food. You have to be careful if you make your own as you can't just throw random chunks of meat at cats, they need a special balance of muscle meat, bone, heart and offal or they get ill, but there are plenty of recipes you can follow available online - I tried it for the first time myself last year, and it went very well! However, there are also companies like Nutriment you can buy pre-made frozen raw food from - personally I'd avoid Natural Instinct, though, as their recipes are currently much too bone heavy and gave my older girl severe constipation.

He also definitely needs more exercise - cat proofing the garden is one option, or lots more chase toy time (the Flying Frenzy is excellent!). Maybe some things he can play with himself, like ball tracks, or of you have the space and the money, an indoor cat wheel he can run on like a giant hamster wheel?

Either which way, start with the diet - grain free high protein foods will fill him up better and satisfy him much longer than grain laden dry food


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Hi there, thank you both for the information! 

To start with, I just ordered a plague rat! Anything to get the little guy moving more is a great help!

It sounds like more exercise is needed. Its difficult though because my back yard is fairly small, and its surrounded by walls which he can jump up on easily. Any ideas on how to make the back yard secure? I'd also need it be secure enough to stop cats from coming in too, and my neighbours might oppose to me putting up big fences etc as the houses share the separating walls at the back. 

I will definitely look into getting a running wheel I think!

When I used to feed Oscar the wet food e.g. Whiskers etc he used to get really bad diarrhea. So the vet said he has gastro-intestinal issues. Would he be OK with the brands of wet food named above; how are they different from the brands in supermarkets which made him ill? I wouldn't trust myself with making my own food for him. 

Do I need to give him wet food (is wet food is cooked?) and raw food? If I don't need to give him both, which is preferred? Is raw food food safe in terms of bacteria etc, especially if its being delivered (more chance of it going off?).

Once again, thanks for your help!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

jpmad4it said:


> It sounds like more exercise is needed. Its difficult though because my back yard is fairly small, and its surrounded by walls which he can jump up on easily. Any ideas on how to make the back yard secure? I'd also need it be secure enough to stop cats from coming in too, and my neighbours might oppose to me putting up big fences etc as the houses share the separating walls at the back.


There's a cat proofing thread pinned at the top of Cat Chat, I think - my garden isn't cat proofed so I can't really help!



jpmad4it said:


> I will definitely look into getting a running wheel I think!


Sounds like a good idea! Make sure you get the biggest diameter wheel you can, particularly as he is a bigger than average cat - if they are too small for the cat it can compress the spine when they run. Look for the internal diameter - most on the market are 48 inches, but you should try and choose something bigger for your boy I think.



jpmad4it said:


> When I used to feed Oscar the wet food e.g. Whiskers etc he used to get really bad diarrhea. So the vet said he has gastro-intestinal issues. Would he be OK with the brands of wet food named above; how are they different from the brands in supermarkets which made him ill? I wouldn't trust myself with making my own food for him.


It's not guaranteed, but most likely it was the grain in the Whiskas causing the bowel issues - some cats just can't tolerate it at all. Grain free food like the ones listed above should hopefully eliminate that issue - as an added bonus, grain is also what makes litter tray offerings smell so bad, so you can probably throw away the gas mask too - I noticed a massive improvement in poo odour when I switched my old girl to wet and raw!



jpmad4it said:


> Do I need to give him wet food (is wet food is cooked?) and raw food? If I don't need to give him both, which is preferred? Is raw food food safe in terms of bacteria etc, especially if its being delivered (more chance of it going off?).


Tinned wet food is cooked, yes. Raw food, as the name implies, isn't, but when shipped it is transported in freezer lorries and in heavily insulated packaging - I've had deliveries sit in full sun for three or four hourse before I've got home from work, and still be frozen solid! There is a 5kg weight order minumum to make sure it stays frozen though, which is one of the reasons I have a chest freezer now so I can order as much as I like. I then slightly defrost it one tray at a time to make it just soft enough to cut into meal size portions (it's still mainly solid!), then fully re-freeze those portions individually and defrost them day by day as needed. You may also find a local pet shop that stocks it if you are lucky 



jpmad4it said:


> Once again, thanks for your help!


You're welcome!


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## Cerijoanne (Jun 28, 2015)

Sorry just realised my post said @zoops. ...I meant @zooplus.com. difference is ingredients. ..massive difference....eg..whiskers tins 4% meat...brands of zooplus usually like 75% meat...plus all the good ingredients that our furry friends need....and leaving out the bad stuff like grains. These are fine if you don't fancy raw feeding. It's all down to preference really. 

There are different ways you can cat proof your garden....you can get roller/rolling timber which runs along the top of your existing fences...cats can't jump in or out.
Cheaper alternatives are brush fencing panals which I have just seen...I will post the picture for you to see. 
Self play cat toys are cool....I would definitely have a browse around zooplus as you can get it all in one place there! Toys and food and lost of info!


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## Cerijoanne (Jun 28, 2015)

Brush panals for fence


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hello @jpmad4it and welcome 

Your situation sounds awful! Like you I could not possibly keep ignoring a cat who cried constantly for food! And the poor cat is so obsessed with food he sounds very stressed, bless him.

I agree with Jesthar, the dry food diet is probably part of the problem. The trouble with dry food is that the correct allowance per meal is so small in bulk the cat does not feel it has had much to eat and so wants more. But dry food is so packed full of calories that it quickly causes weight issues in some cats if they are allowed to eat more than the recommended amount.

I honestly feel his weight will be more acceptable if you feed him a wet food diet that is high in protein and contains no grains. Not only that but he is going to feel full for longer if he is eating more protein because protein is digested more slowly than carbs. On a wet food diet he will have his fluids in with his food as Nature intends for cats.

If he has gastric issues you may need to feed him "Sensitive" foods such as Ropocat canned, Macs Sensitive, or Tundra all good quality imported German foods from The Happy Kitty Co.

http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/cat-food/Sensitive+Cat

Or there are some 'sensitive' wet foods available from Zooplus UK;

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/esearch.htm#q=Kattovit%20Sensitive&catl=5&cats=1Cat%7C2Wet%20Cat%20Food%7C3Kattovit%7C4Kattovit%20Sensitive

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/integra/integra_cans/179543

However it may be the case that your cat is actually intolerant of certain meat proteins, and this could be causing him to have stomach ache, which he interprets as hunger. If the sensitive wet foods don't work for him then it is best to put him on an elimination diet using a novel protein (one he has never eaten before such as goat, horse, reindeer, kangaroo)f for 6 weeks and then gradually reintroduce single protein foods one type at a time every 3 weeks, keeping a log of symptoms as you go.

Beef, fish and chicken [in that order] are statistically the most common food allergens in cats. If you don't feel ready to put him on a full elimination diet you could try feeding him foods that no contain beef, fish or chicken. Most cheap supermarket foods contain one or more of these, but you will find single protein foods such as turkey, pork, mutton and kangaroo at The Happy Kitty Co as well as Zooplus UK.

I would also look at feeding him small but frequent meals as it may suit his digestion better. My two boys aged 6 who have IBD are better on 6 small meals a day, and it does stop them constantly demanding food.

I agree with Cerijoanne and Jesthar he needs a lot more exercise than 15 minutes a day. And also would suggest either fencing in your garden to make it cat proof, or else building a large outdoor enclosure off the back of the house which he can access through a cat flap, and filling it with all kinds of climbing equipment such as tall cat trees etc, and planting shrubs for him to lie under in the shade.

Bear in mind though if your garden is not fenced to keep other cats out they will still come into your garden and intimidate your cat and this could wind him up or cause him to be be afraid to use the enclosure. So for that reason I would opt for a fenced in garden.

There is a sticky thread on the subject of cat proofing you may find useful to read,

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/

I would also recommend a herbal supplement that is very good at calming anxious stressed cats. It is Beaphar Calming spot on, a liquid you put on the back of the cat's head once a week.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-Ca...8-1&keywords=beaphar+calming+spot+on+for+cats

Or some people prefer to add another calming supplement called Zylkene powder to the cat's food.

http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/zylkene-capsules-pack-of-20-75mg.html

Please let us know how things go?


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your stressful problem. I've had a quick look at the cat fencing sites, but as we do steel and shade work I may have a cheap idea for you (sorry we are to far away to do it for you ).

It sounds like your whole back yard is walled in, so you could attach ±45 degree brackets up on the wall (if a full height wall maybe 200mm from the top(??)) and fix garden shade netting, or tennis netting to the brackets.

Something like the top bit on this photo (pinched off http://www.catsofaustralia.com/cat-enclosures.htm), but sloping up from your wall - and obviously the wooden poles would be your wall. I would imagine cats trying to get in would feel insecure having to drop down to the net and then have to climb up the 45 degrees on a wobbly surface. And Oscar will have to swing his way up the 45 degree angle to get out. (That would give him a great workout .)

I can do a quick sketch if you like, if you can's make it yourself, you could use the sketch for a quote.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

I will have a look round at the food, chillminx has supplied some great advice below too about meat and sensitive food. I have lots to look at!

I'd have to do the full metal meshing to secure my back yard. I have quite low walls which cats can easily jump up on, and my cat flap leads out of the back door into the yard. So the flap can't lead directly into an enclosure. I'll post some photos of my yard in the other thread and get some advice. My main problem would be keeping cats out, and worrying that if they got in, they wouldn't be able to get back out!!

Ooo those wheels are quite expensive. *Sigh* - I can't afford that yet and I noticed that the cat's back is arched a lot on the wheel. For now, I've just ordered a play tunnel and one of the ball track toys with some illuminating balls for night time.

I think I will start him on the turkey, pork, mutton and kangaroo from The Happy Kitty Co and reintroduce sensitive wet food as per chillminx's recommendation. 

How long does a 400g tin last? 

I couldn't seem to find pork, mutton (they do have lamb) or Kangaroo on zooplus or The Happy Kitty Co? Am I looking in the wrong place?!

Regarding remedies, has anyone heard of Aktivait capsules? Are they good? I don't want to keep trying to use them if they aren't.

Sorry for the indirect replies, it keeps saying my posts with quotes in it is classed as spam!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Mellowredsa said:


> Sorry to hear about your stressful problem. I've had a quick look at the cat fencing sites, but as we do steel and shade work I may have a cheap idea for you (sorry we are to far away to do it for you ).
> 
> It sounds like your whole back yard is walled in, so you could attach ±45 degree brackets up on the wall (if a full height wall maybe 200mm from the top(??)) and fix garden shade netting, or tennis netting to the brackets.
> 
> ...


Yes that's the kind of thing I'd have to do!!! As you say it's all walls which surround my yard.

If you could do a sketch that would be amazing!! Thank you!

EDIT - I think the fencing would have to be higher wouldn't it, to keep other cats out?


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

Not really. Will do a sketch then you can see if it makes sense.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Hi and welcome 
Lots of brilliant advice already. Sorry if I've missed it but presumably his worming is up to date?
I think you deserve a big pat on the back for being so attentive to what your cat needs, many owners would not care so much - well done x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@jpmad4it - the pork, mutton and kangaroo are single protein canned foods called the "Purrr" range made by Catz FineFood. They are available from Zooplus UK.

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/feedback/s...uches/catz_finefood/catz_finefood_cans/525028

A 400 gram can would last one to two days. It is best to decant the contents of the can as soon as you open it, to prevent oxidisation spoiling the taste. Put it in a covered container in the fridge and microwave his meals for 5 seconds to take the chill off before serving if he doesn't like cold food.

I feed my cats about 40 to 50 grams of wet food a time, x 6 meals a day = 240 grams to 300 grams each a day. I wouldn;t worry too much about rationing Oscar's food at this stage, as the fact he will be eating a high protein wet food instead of dry will usually result in some natural loss of weight. He needs to lose weight very slowly anyway, to prevent liver problems (liver lipidosis).

EDIT: I thought Aktivait capsules were specifically to help improve brain function in elderly cats and dogs? I have not heard of them being given to a cat as young as 8 yrs old.

https://www.viovet.co.uk/Non-Prescription_Medicines-Dogs-Behavioural_and_Brain-Aktivait_Capsules_for_Dogs_and_Cats/c119_13_124_67/category.html?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Non-Prescription Medicines - Dogs [OAID:8]&utm_term=aktivait&utm_content=Aktivait Capsules for Dogs and Cats 1 [OAID:223]


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

jpmad4it said:


> Ooo those wheels are quite expensive. *Sigh* - I can't afford that yet and I noticed that the cat's back is arched a lot on the wheel. For now, I've just ordered a play tunnel and one of the ball track toys with some illuminating balls for night time.


For when you can afford it, have a look at the FatBadCat wheel. It's new to market, and significantly bigger than anything else available right now. Made in the UK, too! 



jpmad4it said:


> I think I will start him on the turkey, pork, mutton and kangaroo from The Happy Kitty Co and reintroduce sensitive wet food as per chillminx's recommendation.
> 
> How long does a 400g tin last?


Depends on the food. The better the quality, the less you feed for the bodyweight. Raw, you feed even less of. 



jpmad4it said:


> Regarding remedies, has anyone heard of Aktivait capsules? Are they good? I don't want to keep trying to use them if they aren't.


Never heard of it myself. I use Zylkene with my older girl to help her cope with the young zoomy cat - I buy the 450mg capsules and split them as it;s lot cheaper! Beapher spot on has a goof reputation too.



jpmad4it said:


> Sorry for the indirect replies, it keeps saying my posts with quotes in it is classed as spam!


That will probably stop as you make more posts


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

Not sure if you can load PDFs here, so lets see if it works


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## Sh N (Dec 2, 2015)

Plenty of great advice on here. I have a cat with a grain allergy and a sensitive tummy- so these are my experiences.

Maya has a grain allergy and had troubles with dry when we got her home. She was fed felix- which took almost an year to get her to transition from. I can vouch for the MACs foods from the happy kitty company. 

Maya is 3.5 Kg and she eats about 200g per day. I decant a 800g tin into 4 x 200g boxes and it lasts me about 4 days. 

Email Happy Kitty company and they will be quite happy to cobble together a trial pack for you. Get him on an exclusively high quality wet diet and you will see it makes a difference to Oscar's weight. Sensitive tums do well on single proteins, but my Maya does OK on salmon and chicken- which she has transitioned into. I will introduce her to a couple of single proteins to get her some variety in her food. Have a fixed weight of food he will get each day- DO NOT exceed that amount. If he asks for food, give a spoonful of it. Most times, they only cry for their hunt- catch- kill- eat- groom- sleep cycle to be complete adequately. 

Also vouch for the beaphar spot on. It does work wonders. 

In the time you're working on getting your garden cat proofed, you can take your cat outside and allow him to explore under your supervision. Theres a lot of daylight these days outside anyway. You can also maybe try putting him on a harness and walking him in the garden. Though he might not exercise vigorously, he will be stimulated quite well. Complete the walk with a small spoonful of food so he feels rewarded.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Really great advice given here so far. I'll get the wheel bit out of the way first. If you're looking at wheels where the cat's back is not completely straight, then the diameter is too small. The FatBadCat is a new launch, but has the biggest internal diameter of any wheel on the UK market, and as it's specially designed for big cats and small dogs, it's reinforced internally too so that it can support their weight without giving way. I'll come right out and say that I am helping the company who has made this, so if you have any questions or would like it altered, or even want to start a payment plan with the company to help you afford it, they'll be happy to work with you. They're made by my OH and his ethos is to be really approachable and work with any circumstance. He designed them for me and my guys originally and I'm a bit of a health freak, so made sure they were as big as poss etc. FatBadCat is on Facebook or at fatbadcat.com. There's also some toys on there, particularly the rocket fuel ones, which should get him moving just as much, if not more than the plague rat.

I'd also suggest you invest in a Flying Frenzy if you haven't already got them. Purrs in Our Hearts do them and they are the best wand toy I've ever seen. Truly, truly awesome! Loads of different attachments too so you can customise it to what they like. I have a real problem with wand toys as mine, being Persians, are awkward sods and will only chase whatever they love most in the world. For one it was a sparkly ball but that terrified another one. The third only wanted bugs and the 4th feathers... And on and on it went. The Frenzy means you only need one wand though, so my sanity and my storage space were saved! Because of the design of the rod, it flies really well and really encourages them to chase.

Re food, lots of good advice already. The higher protein/meat content, the more full up the cat will be. Do you think he would tolerate raw? In my experience, it's the food they need to eat least of to feel fuller for longer. If you're able to make it yourself, you can also directly control the amount of fat you add or take away from his meals, so for a food obsessed cat, this really may be the way forward. You could also do an elimination diet by feeding him guaranteed single meat sources at once.

Failing that, my next port of call would be the Happy Kitty Company. All of their foods are really smashing in terms of quality. They do do sensitive foods, but I have to say that they gave my guys the runs, but Persians do have ridiculously sensitive tummies, so perhaps that's not indicative of anything other than that fact. I wanted to feed tins for the convenience when they go to shows, but I had to go back to raw in the end. Note, no parasites or nasties in the cats, they were all tested, so just upset tumms. Again here, I'd start with a single source protein and expand from there.

Zooplus is good if you know what you're looking for, but to be honest, unless you need to buy litter etc at the same time, I'd stick to Happy Kitty Company as the choice is wider and the costs are cheaper for the really good quality stuff.

I think you need to be strong and don't give in when he's crying, but I suspect that that will dramatically decrease with the addition of a high quality wet food. Just be aware that the change might be hard as it's like getting a kid who always eats McDonalds to gladly eat a salad!!!!! If you need any advice on that, do come back to us... Most of us have been t


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry, most of us have been there too!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

moggie14 said:


> Hi and welcome
> Lots of brilliant advice already. Sorry if I've missed it but presumably his worming is up to date?
> I think you deserve a big pat on the back for being so attentive to what your cat needs, many owners would not care so much - well done x


Thank you. He's my buddy so I want the best for him! Yes his worming is up to date. I have to use the profender spot on rather than the tablets, he just wont have them. Are they effective?



chillminx said:


> @jpmad4it - the pork, mutton and kangaroo are single protein canned foods called the "Purrr" range made by Catz FineFood. They are available from Zooplus UK.
> 
> http://www.zooplus.co.uk/feedback/s...uches/catz_finefood/catz_finefood_cans/525028
> 
> ...


Thanks, great advice! I'm trying to figure out how much food to buy with one order. What would you recommend? How much per month do you guys spend on average?

Yeah I guess I bought the Aktivait to try and get him stimulated, he's very timid so I don't know if he's naturally like that. He has always been quite inactive. I thought it might help with anxiety but the other remedies recommended here sound more suitable.



Jesthar said:


> For when you can afford it, have a look at the FatBadCat wheel. It's new to market, and significantly bigger than anything else available right now. Made in the UK, too!
> 
> Depends on the food. The better the quality, the less you feed for the bodyweight. Raw, you feed even less of.
> 
> ...


Ooo that one is more expensive! I think I'll have to save up! I was wondering whether to use some stress relief remedy along with the food change. Or I might just try the food to start with and see how it goes.



Mellowredsa said:


> Not sure if you can load PDFs here, so lets see if it works


It worked! Thanks very much for such a detailed sketch!! My dad is an engineer and fabricator so I'm sure he can help me with it!



Sh N said:


> Plenty of great advice on here. I have a cat with a grain allergy and a sensitive tummy- so these are my experiences.
> 
> Maya has a grain allergy and had troubles with dry when we got her home. She was fed felix- which took almost an year to get her to transition from. I can vouch for the MACs foods from the happy kitty company.
> 
> ...


I have a lead already. When I was introducing him to the back yard for the first few times I used it and it worked well!

Would you recommend a mixture of single proteins to start with?



carly87 said:


> Really great advice given here so far. I'll get the wheel bit out of the way first. If you're looking at wheels where the cat's back is not completely straight, then the diameter is too small. The FatBadCat is a new launch, but has the biggest internal diameter of any wheel on the UK market, and as it's specially designed for big cats and small dogs, it's reinforced internally too so that it can support their weight without giving way. I'll come right out and say that I am helping the company who has made this, so if you have any questions or would like it altered, or even want to start a payment plan with the company to help you afford it, they'll be happy to work with you. They're made by my OH and his ethos is to be really approachable and work with any circumstance. He designed them for me and my guys originally and I'm a bit of a health freak, so made sure they were as big as poss etc. FatBadCat is on Facebook or at fatbadcat.com. There's also some toys on there, particularly the rocket fuel ones, which should get him moving just as much, if not more than the plague rat.
> 
> I'd also suggest you invest in a Flying Frenzy if you haven't already got them. Purrs in Our Hearts do them and they are the best wand toy I've ever seen. Truly, truly awesome! Loads of different attachments too so you can customise it to what they like. I have a real problem with wand toys as mine, being Persians, are awkward sods and will only chase whatever they love most in the world. For one it was a sparkly ball but that terrified another one. The third only wanted bugs and the 4th feathers... And on and on it went. The Frenzy means you only need one wand though, so my sanity and my storage space were saved! Because of the design of the rod, it flies really well and really encourages them to chase.
> 
> ...


That's great, a payment plan would really help! I'll have a think about that! The company sounds very friendly!

I have a Flying Frenzy - Oscar loves it! I have a few refills for it too.

I think Oscar would like raw food. I will definitely take all the advice given here and give it a try. I'm looking forward to getting my guy sorted out


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## Sh N (Dec 2, 2015)

jpmad4it said:


> Would you recommend a mixture of single proteins to start with?


If I'm starting her transition again, Id have trialled the single proteins first.

I had a couple of trial packs from HKC and she just clicked with this particular flavour of MACs. She licks the bowl clean and she is particularly fond of it and everthing is fine in spite of having a sensitive tum. Some flavours in the trial pack, she would not touch and cry for her regular felix. Also on the MACs, she's stopped having hiccups, and her poos are good and well formed and dont smell particularly vile. When she was on felix, she would have loose poos and pass blood in them, at least once a week and have hiccups after eating.

It is only very recently that she had a diagnosis of colitis- our trials and tribulations with high quality wet food had started much earlier! In a few weeks time when I am looking to introduce some variety in her diet- having had some explanation to her sensitive tum, I will persist with single proteins- as I know for a fact that it will not upset her. I hope this helps.


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## Cerijoanne (Jun 28, 2015)

Best of luck to you and your cat!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Sh N said:


> If I'm starting her transition again, Id have trialled the single proteins first.
> 
> I had a couple of trial packs from HKC and she just clicked with this particular flavour of MACs. She licks the bowl clean and she is particularly fond of it and everthing is fine in spite of having a sensitive tum. Some flavours in the trial pack, she would not touch and cry for her regular felix. Also on the MACs, she's stopped having hiccups, and her poos are good and well formed and dont smell particularly vile. When she was on felix, she would have loose poos and pass blood in them, at least once a week and have hiccups after eating.
> 
> It is only very recently that she had a diagnosis of colitis- our trials and tribulations with high quality wet food had started much earlier! In a few weeks time when I am looking to introduce some variety in her diet- having had some explanation to her sensitive tum, I will persist with single proteins- as I know for a fact that it will not upset her. I hope this helps.


This forum is brilliant, so much useful advice!

I will start with single protein I think and go from there. And maybe try some raw food!

Poor puss, I hope she's OK.


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

jpmad4it said:


> It worked! Thanks very much for such a detailed sketch!! My dad is an engineer and fabricator so I'm sure he can help me with it!


That is wonderful. Your Dad will most likely design something even more simple.

Good luck.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

I have to confess, when I switched diet with Charlie-girl I just plonked the new stuff down and left her to it! Thankfully she has a cast iron stomach, bless her


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

I don't think Oscar will have any problems getting the food in, it might be an issue when its on its way out though !!!

Here is the guy in question, trying to get in my bath!

View media item 75737


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

Hello Oscar you stunner! Those are some splendid ear tufts! 

I have nothing to add as you've been given such good advice all ready, but I wanted to say thank you for making the effort to do the right thing by your boy. Your thread has made me happy today, bless you. I hope it continues to go well for you both and I look forward to seeing more of Oscar in the future.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

He's a poser 

Glad I could make you happy! Only the best for my little pal !!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

What a cute chap he is!
loads of great advice above, so not much for me to add except that I am huge fan of raw feeding especially for cats who are permanently hungry.
There are a couple of companies who sell complete, frozen raw cat food....Nutriment, Natural Instinct and Natures menu. You can also feed a smallish proportion of their diet as assorted chunks of raw meat or even raw chicken wings. If your cat will take to wings they are fantastic as they occupy him whilst chomping and then the bone and meat keep him filled up for a long time.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Paddypaws said:


> What a cute chap he is!
> loads of great advice above, so not much for me to add except that I am huge fan of raw feeding especially for cats who are permanently hungry.
> There are a couple of companies who sell complete, frozen raw cat food....Nutriment, Natural Instinct and Natures menu. You can also feed a smallish proportion of their diet as assorted chunks of raw meat or even raw chicken wings. If your cat will take to wings they are fantastic as they occupy him whilst chomping and then the bone and meat keep him filled up for a long time.


I am definitely going to try raw food at some point to see if he will eat it. I like the look of Nutriment. How long would this 5kg box last (roughly):

http://www.nutriment.co/5kg-cat-box/

Can i just give him a full, raw chicken wing? I'd be worried sick about him choking on the bones :-(


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

jpmad4it said:


> I am definitely going to try raw food at some point to see if he will eat it. I like the look of Nutriment. How long would this 5kg box last (roughly):
> 
> http://www.nutriment.co/5kg-cat-box/


It depends on the weight of the cat, you feed 2-3% of the cats bodyweight when feeding raw, depending on activity level and if you are trying to get them to gain or lose weight. My Charlie-girl is 5kg, which equates to between 100 and 150g per day if feeding exclusively raw, so about 1/4 of a tray of Nutriment (125g). I feed a mix of raw and wet, so she gets 1/8th of a tray of Nutriment in the morning, and good grain free tinned food at night. A starter pack is a good way to go, as some cats don't like all the flavours - Charlie won't touch the salmon, but a friends two cats loved it!


jpmad4it said:


> Can i just give him a full, raw chicken wing? I'd be worried sick about him choking on the bones :-(


Yes, you can - in the wild crunching small bones cleans their teeth  My Charlie girl loves one occasionally a a treat - they can't make up more than 20% of the diet, though as obviously they aren't a balanced meal. So one or two a week should be fine, but not many more.


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## Sh N (Dec 2, 2015)

I was raised vegetarian and I have no experience of handling meat or eating it- and admittedly, I was worried about chicken wings too. It was like, "should I just plonk the wing in her bowl?" I get a couple each week from my friendly local butcher, who chops them into three sections for me. I give her a wing every ten days.
Maya loves to gnaw on them and she grinds on those bones- keeps her occupied when she cannot run outside, and during her kitty MOT a few weeks back, her teeth are in excellent condition.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> It depends on the weight of the cat, you feed 2-3% of the cats bodyweight when feeding raw, depending on activity level and if you are trying to get them to gain or lose weight. My Charlie-girl is 5kg, which equates to between 100 and 150g per day if feeding exclusively raw, so about 1/4 of a tray of Nutriment (125g). I feed a mix of raw and wet, so she gets 1/8th of a tray of Nutriment in the morning, and good grain free tinned food at night. A starter pack is a good way to go, as some cats don't like all the flavours - Charlie won't touch the salmon, but a friends two cats loved it!
> 
> Yes, you can - in the wild crunching small bones cleans their teeth  My Charlie girl loves one occasionally a a treat - they can't make up more than 20% of the diet, though as obviously they aren't a balanced meal. So one or two a week should be fine, but not many more.





Sh N said:


> I was raised vegetarian and I have no experience of handling meat or eating it- and admittedly, I was worried about chicken wings too. It was like, "should I just plonk the wing in her bowl?" I get a couple each week from my friendly local butcher, who chops them into three sections for me. I give her a wing every ten days.
> Maya loves to gnaw on them and she grinds on those bones- keeps her occupied when she cannot run outside, and during her kitty MOT a few weeks back, her teeth are in excellent condition.


That's quite reasonable, so I guess a 5kg box would last between a month and 50 days. Trying to work out the cost, I don't have a lot of money to spend :-(

I think I will start with some trial packs of raw food and the grain free meat.

I will get some chicken wings too I think as treats, sounds like a good idea!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Have a look at Raw Pet Supplies before you commit to anything, lovely. Their selection of 80-10-10 foods is massive and will give you a lot of variety! I do like Nutriment ov all the choices you've been given, but with recent batches, I've been finding it's also getting very bone heavy, to the point where I'm not so keen on using it any more. When I get through what's in my freezer, I won't be ordering any more. Are you located anywhere near Worcestershire? I'm just about to do a RPS order and would be happy to chuck a few boxes in for you and split delivery costs to help you out if that's of any use at all. Failing that, we're coming up to Kent for a show Saturday week, so could bring some there for you.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

carly87 said:


> Have a look at Raw Pet Supplies before you commit to anything, lovely. Their selection of 80-10-10 foods is massive and will give you a lot of variety! I do like Nutriment ov all the choices you've been given, but with recent batches, I've been finding it's also getting very bone heavy, to the point where I'm not so keen on using it any more. When I get through what's in my freezer, I won't be ordering any more. Are you located anywhere near Worcestershire? I'm just about to do a RPS order and would be happy to chuck a few boxes in for you and split delivery costs to help you out if that's of any use at all. Failing that, we're coming up to Kent for a show Saturday week, so could bring some there for you.


Hey thanks! Do you have any links for the cat food on there - I wasn't sure if it was all dog food?

I was looking at getting a tester of this: http://www.naturalinstinct.com/pure-turkey
And this: http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/cat-food/products/macs-sensitive-turkey-400g-new

Just to see how he goes on to start with.

I'm up in Lancashire I'm afraid but thanks for the lovely offer


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

Regarding raw foods, my butcher advised to wash off raw meat with boiling water to kill the bacteria. Do the cat fundis agree with that?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Mellowredsa said:


> Regarding raw foods, my butcher advised to wash off raw meat with boiling water to kill the bacteria. Do the cat fundis agree with that?


I know Lisa Pierson has gone really soft on fully raw meat for cats and advises par boiling in fact.
personally I am quite confident in the ability of my cats to handle the bacteria on their meat and think that there would be much more danger to myself from the bacteria sprayed around my kitchen when I try and wash the meat!


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

Paddypaws said:


> ....... personally I am quite confident in the ability of my cats to handle the bacteria on their meat ......


I tend to agree. We surround our (human) kids with so much disinfectant and germ killing cleaning stuff that they don't build up any resistance and get ill more often. So allowing the bacteria in cats feed sounds ok. After all ... we don't get an opportunity to boil the mice, birds and other gifts they bring indoors.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

To be honest, I really wouldn't recommend Natural Instinct. I won't go into details here, but I don't like the quality of their meat, nor how they freeze and store it whilst awaiting dispatch.

Most if not all of the 80-10-10 things on the RPS website will be appropriate for cats. The food needs to have 80% muselc meat, 10% bone and 10% secreting organs, 5% of which should be liver. Palio Ridge, Manifold Valley Meats and Just Natural all look good in that department. If unsure though, drop Claire, the owner, an email. She's been incredibly helpful whenever I've asked any questions.

Ah, sorry to hear you're so far away from me. Might be worth putting something up in the health section to see if anyone's up for combining orders, as it will allow you to try without as much financial risk.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Of course if your cat really takes to bone-in chunks then you can easily make your own balanced food at home. The files on this page contain easy to follow recipe instructions
https://www.facebook.com/groups/CatCrap/


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Paddypaws said:


> Of course if your cat really takes to bone-in chunks then you can easily make your own balanced food at home. The files on this page contain easy to follow recipe instructions
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/CatCrap/


Haha that's a nice name .....CatCrap


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

jpmad4it said:


> Haha that's a nice name .....CatCrap


Yes, it's a great acronym isn't it!  (the CRAP part stands for Completely Raw and Proud )


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Hi all - is this suitable for cats?

https://rawpetsupplies.ecwid.com/#!...54g-*-80-10-10-*/p/64817280/category=15601075

I've also looked at:
https://rawpetsupplies.ecwid.com/#!...54g-*-80-10-10-*/p/64817280/category=15601075
https://rawpetsupplies.ecwid.com/#!/MVM-Minced-Veal-Dinner-454g/p/56980001/category=13788331

I am trying to find a single protein such as raw Turkey (80/10/5/5) on its own but I can't seem to find it. They all seem to come as bundles.

I don't know what is best, please advise


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Paeloridge does single protein raw minces including turkey mince.

http://www.paleoridgeraw.uk/store/p174/Turkey_carcass__mince_1KG__.html


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

chillminx said:


> Paeloridge does single protein raw minces including turkey mince.
> 
> http://www.paleoridgeraw.uk/store/p174/Turkey_carcass__mince_1KG__.html


Thanks for the reply. I thought the raw food for cats had to be 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% secreting organs (5% of which should be liver).

The one on Paelo Ridge says its 50% bone, which I thought was too much for a cat?

I've seen this which is 80-10-10 :
http://www.paleoridgeraw.uk/store/p113/Wild_Venison_and_duck_complete_1kg.html

Just a shame you have to order 5Kg minimum!

If he wont eat raw, is it possible to defrost the meat in parts, cook it and then feed it to him once its cooled down?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Definitely not as it'll have bone in it. Seriously, if you're worried whether he'll eat it or not, just start him on fresh turkey from the butcher. Get him happy on that and then worry about it being complete. A few weeks of non-complete food won't hurt him and may save you worrying loads.

50% bone is way too much. Why not give Claire at RPS a ring and chat to her? They do kangaroo and horse meat there too which may be slightly bone heavy, but opinions vary as some people happily feed 15% bone with no trouble at all, and others feed 7%. It's about finding what works for the cat. IF poos are too sloppy, then there's not enough bone. Hard and teeny then there's too much. Dry and crumbly and you've got it just right.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If you order 4 packs of boneless turkey mince and one pack of bone-in turkey mince and combine them you would have the right ratio of bone overall (10%). But it does mean, as you say, buying 5 kg of meat at a time. However it's so much cheaper than buying minced or chunked turkey from the supermarket you may feel it is worth putting in a large order to PRR.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Would the offal content be right though?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

carly87 said:


> Would the offal content be right though?


That's a good point. I was thinking the boneless mince was just minced muscle meat, as one can buy in the supermarket, but it may well have the offal added in too. 

Really, it is more straightforward to start from scratch and put together one's own recipes, rather than buying ready made. Plus, I get to use my beautiful posh meat grinder!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I totally agree with @chillminx.....making your own at home is really very easy and it is the ONLY way to be in complete control of what goes in the mix.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

carly87 said:


> Definitely not as it'll have bone in it.


Sorry I'm not sure what you are referring to there, do you mean cooked meat?

Well I had success at the weekend! He's been eating raw turkey from the butcher for his 5.30pm feed. He was hesitant at first but I persisted and he soon decided he liked it and hasn't looked back! He's been ok with his stomach so far, and he's not been sick or hi-cupping or anything like that. I tried a raw chicken wing but he wasn't interested at all, I might try again when he's a bit more hungry. I've seen a small change in his behavior overnight. With the raw feed at 5.30pm he's not been crying as much at night. I'm going to experiment with smaller and more regular feeds to see if he'll improve even further.



carly87 said:


> Why not give Claire at RPS a ring and chat to her? They do kangaroo and horse meat there too which may be slightly bone heavy, but opinions vary as some people happily feed 15% bone with no trouble at all, and others feed 7%. It's about finding what works for the cat. IF poos are too sloppy, then there's not enough bone. Hard and teeny then there's too much. Dry and crumbly and you've got it just right.


I'll buy some of the MACS Turkey wet food, and in the meanwhile I'll also try some raw duck and venison next. If that's successful I'll buy in bulk. I'll also speak to Claire at RPS and see what she can offer 

Thanks again everyone for your advice


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## Sh N (Dec 2, 2015)

jpmad4it said:


> I'll buy some of the MACS Turkey wet food, and in the meanwhile I'll also try some raw duck and venison next. If that's successful I'll buy in bulk.


Regarding the MACs, watch out for the stuff in the 800g tins. Maya wolfed down the stuff in the 200g tins just fine and turned up her nose at the 800g tins. She would go hungry, but not eat the stuff from the 800g tins. I purchased three of them, and two are in the bin now! Since HKC ships by weight, you'll only pay marginally extra for 2X 400g tins or 4X 200g tins vs 1X 800g tin.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Oscar is such a handsome boy! 
I have no real further advice to offer other than what is said. But I'm sure once Oscar stops eating dry food and goes over to wet, his weight should slowly come down. Anything with a higher protein will be more dense, and will fill him up quicker, without the sugar, grain, carb and calorie content that cheap and nasty ingredients contain. He sounds like a cat who will eat anything, which is lucky.

My Betty (who we rescued when she ran away from her last home), would eat anything at first, but now is a fussy madam. I would recommend buying a trial pack to find a variety he likes, and that he can tolerate for his sensitive tummy.
I found Her Majesty doesn't like certain _textures _(rather than flavours), and so I bought her cheaper(ish) wet food, which she loved, then found the textures she liked and bought similar in the better quality stuff. This saves me spending a lot of money of expensive stuff she often won't touch. 
She still prefers the cheaper brands, (but I never buy the nasty Whiskas/Felix) it's not the worst quality, but it's not the best, either.

You can get some self-playing toys, but I've found Her Majesty just prefers anything she finds randomly on the floor, such as plastic nail files, bottle tops and shoe laces!

Good luck and let us know how you get on. x And more pictures of your handsome boy.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, I mean cooking the complete raw. I.e, you asked if he didn't eat it, could you cook it for him? The answer is no if it's a complete feed, as it'll have bone in, and you absolutely can't give him cooked bone.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

carly87 said:


> Yep, I mean cooking the complete raw. I.e, you asked if he didn't eat it, could you cook it for him? The answer is no if it's a complete feed, as it'll have bone in, and you absolutely can't give him cooked bone.


Thanks for the info


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## Rex and Milo (Jun 3, 2016)

Have you considered harness training Oscar? My two boys aren't allowed out on their own, but I take them out twice a day to give them a bit of exercise. If he's never been on a harness before, it might be pretty difficult to train him (especially considering his age).

He definitely needs more than 15 minutes active play a day. What sort of toys does he have? Catit Sensory Circuits are good, as are Kong Kickeroos. You could even always try to teach him to play fetch for some active play!

Diet is hugely important. I've fed Natures Menu pouches, which are good, before switching to raw (Nutriment and Natural Instinct). With the raw, it is generally recommended that you aim to feed 2-3% of the animal's ideal body weight, spread over two meals per day. So for weight maintenance of a 4 kg cat, this would be two meals of 40-60g each day. This doesn't seem like much, but the raw is much more nutrient-dense than wet pouches.

If you're sticking with dry, Applaws is a good option - it's grain-free and has high meat content. With dry food, I like to put it in a treat ball rather than a bowl, so they can eat if they're hungry, but they have to work for it.

Hope you manage to work things out with your handsome chap.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

How are you and he doing now?


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Rex and Milo said:


> Have you considered harness training Oscar? My two boys aren't allowed out on their own, but I take them out twice a day to give them a bit of exercise. If he's never been on a harness before, it might be pretty difficult to train him (especially considering his age).
> 
> He definitely needs more than 15 minutes active play a day. What sort of toys does he have? Catit Sensory Circuits are good, as are Kong Kickeroos. You could even always try to teach him to play fetch for some active play!
> 
> ...


Hey 

I've thought about a harness, but as you say I'm not sure he'd like it with him being middle aged now. I've had him in the backyard on a lead a few times but its not the same.

I've got so many toys, but it takes a lot to get him stimulated. I have a kong kickeroo which he likes, a Catit trackball circuit (with the flashing ball) - he had no interest in that what-so-ever which was a shame. He tends to like other things like plastic bottle tops rather than things that I buy him! He loves his tunnel he hides his plague rat in there!

I think toys which actually move on their own would be better for him. I've seen the circular toy which has the tail moving around by itself which I think he'd like.



SpringDance said:


> How are you and he doing now?


I've not even had a chance to buy anything yet, apart from raw turkey from the supermarket, which he did eat so that is a positive. I'm really skint at the moment, but for his next food buy I plan to buy raw. So he is still crying a lot for food :-(

He was at the vets last week, and his weight is the same so that's good. He's 5.3kg which I want to get down, but I was sure he was going to have put weight on but he hadn't!

We spoke about raw food and the vet advised that I buy from Pets at Home. They do Natures Menu frozen raw food but not a lot of choice, and no turkey or venison which I wanted to try. Here's what they stock:

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/p...-salmon-bite-sized-frozen-nuggets-400g-6-pack

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/p...nd-duck-bite-sized-frozen-nuggets-400g-6-pack

I'm not sure though, I think I'd rather buy from Paleo Ridge or MVM. The Pets at Home ingredients contain no bone, and they also have a load of additives which I'm not sure about:

Composition and Nutrition: Composition: Chicken (55%) inc 10% Heart, 5% Liver, Salmon (40%), Malt Extracts (1%), Yeast Extracts (1%), Cranberry (1%), Yucca extract, Green Tea, Grape seed Extract, Mannan-ologisaccharide, Calcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate. Technological Additives: None Stated; Sensory Additives: None Stated; Nutritional Additives: Vitamin A (2,000iu), Vitamin D (200iu), Vitamin E (28mg) Trace elements: Zinc sulphate monohydrate (102mg), Ferrous sulphate monohydrate (40mg), Cupric sulphate pentahydrate (14mg), Calcium iodate anhydrous (0.85mg), Selenised yeast inactivated (17.4mg/kg). Analytical Constituents: Protein 17%, Crude Fibres 1%, Crude Oils and Fats 9.9%, Crude Ash 3%, Moisture 68.6%.

Feeding Guide: Weight of cat: 1kg - 9 Nuggets per day, 2kg - 17 Nuggets per day, 3kg - 26 Nuggets per day, 4kg - 34 Nuggets per day, 5kg - 43 Nuggets per day, 6kg - 47 Nuggets per day, 7kg - 55 Nuggets per day, 8kg - 63 Nuggets per day, 9kg - 71 Nuggets per day, 10kg - 79 Nuggets per day. An inactive cat will have less per day than an active cat.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Go with your gut there. Buying from the companies you mentioned will be much better than the PaH stuff.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Yeah thats what I thought


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Just doing some maths before I buy over just 5Kg of this:
https://rawpetsupplies.ecwid.com/#!/MVM-Minced-Turkey-&-Offal-454g/p/52526671/category=13788278

So Oscar is 5.3kg. Feeding him 2-3% of his body weight per day would be between 106g-159g per day.

However I want him to lose weight, so should I stick to the lower end of that i.e. 106g?

Also, is that two meals of 53g per day, or two meals of 106g per day?

Trying to figure out how long 5kg of food will last


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

2 meals of 56G each. You'll need to play around a bit to get the right balance for him to lose weight. Try at the lower end but monitor him really closely in case he loses too fast. About 100G a week is reasonable.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Thanks 

100g a day do you mean (not per week )!!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Losing 100 grams a day would be far too much to lose too quickly for an overweight cat.

Here is the advice from Lisa Pierson's website on how to work out safe weight loss for an individual cat according to their current body weight:

*"Safe Rate of Weight Loss*

Please understand that your overweight cat took months to get into his current condition and that it will take months to safely lose the weight. *This is not a race *but it is critical for you to stay the course and not give up.

A safe rate of weight loss is *1 - 2% of their current body weight per week.*

For example, if your cat weighs 20 pounds*, he can safely lose up to ~6 ounces* per week. (20 pounds x 16 ounces/pound = 320 ounces. 2% of 320 = ~ 6 ounces.)

1% would be 3 ounces per week - or 3/4 pound/month.

As your cat loses weight, the amount of weight that he should lose each week will decrease.

For example, if your cat is down to 16 pounds, his weight loss should slow to ~2.5 -5 ounces each week which represents 1-2% of 16 pounds."

The whole of the article is here:

http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felineobesity#Implementing_a_Safe_Weight-Loss_Program

(* 20 pounds = 9 kg, 6 ounces = 170 grams, so as Carly said an average of 100 g weight loss a week would be reasonable in this example)


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

I thought Carly was referring to the amount of food I should give him per week (100g), not weight loss :Banghead 

Sorry !

2 meals of 56G each per day.

100g of weight loss per week 

Thanks for the info !


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

How long can the food be left in the packaging which it arrives in before it defrosts? 

I need to get this delivered to my work address, but we don't have a freezer here. 

I'm just wondering if it will stay frozen whilst I'm at work for the day?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, it'll be fine. The more you order the longer it stays frozen.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Thank you


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

jpmad4it said:


> I thought Carly was referring to the amount of food I should give him per week (100g), not weight loss :Banghead
> 
> !


 So did I !


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

haha


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry guys!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Lol 

Ordering food tomorrow! Finally!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

How long can the food be left out once its defrosted before the cat can eat it? He has a feeder which is set to go round automatically, so I was just wondering whether its safe to leave food it in, and if so, for how long.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I would worry more about flies and eggs  than actual room temperature and length of time with raw food. Its all normally eaten asap here, but it would not worry me to leave meat from one meal to the next if needed.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If you're putting raw meat in an autofeeder set to open say 4 or 5 hours ahead then it doesn't need to be fully defrosted. You can put it in partly frozen and by the time the feeder opens it should be at room temperature ready to eat.

Once it has defrosted and come to room temperature I prefer not to leave it out for more than a couple of hours, because bacteria growth is increasing quickly by then. But I know others will leave it longer.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Ah man, I don't know what to do now. He usually has two main feeds - one at around 3am, and the other at 5.30pm. Then a few treats in between when I'm home. The feeder is really useful because I leave the house at 8am, and get home about 6pm....sometimes I don't get home until 8.30pm.....it's cruel to leave him without food until that time.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

You are worrying too much!
Presumably windows and doors are shut while you are out so you are unlikely to have flies in the house and I really would not be stressing about bacteria being an issue.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

I do worry too much about him 

I think I'll leave enough for two feeds out overnight to defrost, feed him before I go to work and then place the other feed in the feeder, which would go round at 5.30pm. With the food defrosting overnight it would mean the food he eats at 5.30pm will have been defrosted for about 14 hours?? Sounds a bit too long to me? I don't want to be feeding him gone off, raw food.

All doors / windows are left shut and the food is contained in the feeder until it moves round - at which point fat cat will sprint to the food to eat it straight away! So it wouldn't be lying around exposed for long.

It might be better to feed him in the morning, put the rest of the defrosted food in the fridge and feed him when I get home?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

You are supposed to defrost food in the fridge rather than room temperature  . You could add hot/warm water to the breakfast portion to soften it and then put the semi defrosted portion into the feeder for the later meal


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

My guys go 12 hours in between feeds quite happily. If you're worried, give him a bigger portion in the morning so that it'll keep him going for longer, then it doesn't matter if you get home later.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

carly87 said:


> My guys go 12 hours in between feeds quite happily. If you're worried, give him a bigger portion in the morning so that it'll keep him going for longer, then it doesn't matter if you get home later.


It may take Oscar a while to get into that routine  he's greedy!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Paddypaws said:


> You are supposed to defrost food in the fridge rather than room temperature  . You could add hot/warm water to the breakfast portion to soften it and then put the semi defrosted portion into the feeder for the later meal


When i defrost frozen meat for myself I just leave it in the microwave overnight 

Sounds like a good idea


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Definitely can't do that for cats. If you're only defrosting a few portions it would be done well before morning with that routine.

Can't you feed him breaky as soon as you get up, then put another portion down just as you go out the door? That way, tum will still be full so he won't eat it all straight away.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

It might be better to ask what your routine is, I'm not understanding on how to do this.

I need to feed him twice daily, maybe more. Ideally through his feeder. 

If I put frozen meat in the fridge overnight (enough for the next day's feed) will it be defrosted enough to feed him one portion in the morning, keep the other portion in the fridge and then feed him that at night? That way the food stays chilled?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

It all involves a bit of trial and error as there are so many variable factors....is the food minced or chunked, how big is the container etc
If I misjudge and food is not quite defrosted I might a) add a good dash of hot or even boiled water and mix it up or b) *very *carefully use defrost setting on micro wave in very short bursts . Some people will put the food in a bag and sit the bag in warm water.
Just give it a go, I am sure you will soon figure out what works for you.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Why do you need to feed him through his feeder? Why can you not put food down for him twice a day? Raw left out in a feeder for 12 hours before the cat even gets near it is really not that good unless you're putting it in fully frozen, with an ice pack underneath it. It *might* . Rest of the food goes back in the fridge until next feeding time. 500G does me for 2 days.stay fresh then, but as PP says, that would be trial and error. Seriously, feed him first thing in the morning. Then put a portion down or in a feeder to open a few hours into the day so he can eat again. Then you don't need to worry about a feeder portion for the evening. Even if you're home late, he won't have been that long without food.

I put a 500G tub of food in my fridge. That's defrosted by the next morning enough that I need only add warm/boiling water (if boiling then add in small drops and mix to avoid cooking the food) to bring it to room temp and a more slurry like consistency.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Thanks for the replies.

Think I've got it sorted now. I'll put frozen meat in the fridge in the evening, enough for 2 or 3 days worth of feeding. I'll feed him in the morning (if the food isn't fully defrosted i'll do what you said and add some hot water). Then I'll either put some more meat in before I leave so he can eat that a few hours later, or I'll get some MACs and leave it in there a little longer so he can eat it mid-afternoon. Then i'll feed him when I get home from the rest of the meat in the fridge.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

jpmad4it said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Think I've got it sorted now. I'll put frozen meat in the fridge in the evening, enough for 2 or 3 days worth of feeding. .


ahhhhh, now, you see,not wanting to complicate things, but......I don't like meat sitting defrosted for 2-3 days, or rather I have found the cats don't. I try as much as possible to defrost smaller amounts daily so it is always fresh. Even if that means semi defrosting a pack, re-portioning it and re-freezing it and than defrosting the smaller packs on a daily basis.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Ah ok thanks for the heads-up! I don't mind doing smaller chunks on a daily basis. As long as I don't forget to get his food out the night before, he won't be happy


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Andddddd he won't even touch it


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

jpmad4it said:


> Andddddd he won't even touch it


Have you tried 'topping' it with something like tuna water or a couple of pieces of kibble or even treats? Raw doesn't smell as much as canned or dried food so they do sometimes need to be drawn in by the more familiar foods.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Not unusual for a cat switching to raw. Patience is key. Try the toppers above. Crush the kibble if you use it and sprinkle that, or mix a tiny bit of the raw in with the food he's used to and increase daily.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

I tried him on raw turkey (from the supermarket) which he ate, so I was hoping there was a chance he would eat it without any issues. I'll try your suggestions above, thanks again.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Ok so I've tried the raw food with tuna water on it. He just licks the juice off and doesn't eat the food. Any ideas guys ?

Can I mix the tuna meat with the raw? Wasn't sure because the tuna is cooked.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

yes, any mixture of cooked/raw is fine tempt him in.
It is looking like you might need to go back to basics though and try and establish exactly which raw meats and textures he WILL eat and then work up from there


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

He ate raw turkey from the supermarket. Not sure if that tells me anything?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

jpmad4it said:


> He ate raw turkey from the supermarket. Not sure if that tells me anything?


chunks or mince?
will he eat that consistently ie more than one meal? Will he eat a whole serving of that or does he want a small amount of that and some tinned or dry food with it? ( Millie has to have a meal of her blimmin' Gourmet and THEN she wants her meat, she prefers chunks to mince and prefers pork although she will eat turkey and chicken if in the right mood)
Remember he wont develop problems with deficiencies if just fed plain turkey for a short period of time. so start with what you know he will eat and then add new things along the way.
Most of mine became increasingly fussy with the pre-made foods and clearly showed a preference for butchers chicken rather than supermarket ones.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

It was chunks of turkey which he ate. I was just trying him on a few chunks along with his dry food to see if he would eat it. I tried that for a week, not full meals of turkey, just treats really. 

Saying all this, he's just eaten a few mouth fulls of the raw food


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Ok so Oscar is eating the food when mixed with tuna! When should I start trying to ween him off the tuna? Thanks in advance.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If you are feeding him canned tuna (the type sold for humans) then I would try and wean him off it as soon as you can, as tuna should really only be fed occasionally as a treat because of the high level of contamination from mercury and pesticides.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Ok I'll try to get him eating the food without tuna. Is kibble ok longer term if he won't eat the raw alone?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

In preference to kibble I would get some Thrive powdered topper. It is freeze dried pure chicken, and the powdered stuff is much cheaper than the little chunks. You can sprinkle a little all over his meat. Be sparing with it, they don't need much usually to get them eating. 

https://thrivepetfoods.com/thriver-protaste-chicken-food-topper-for-cats-170g


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

He seems to be eating bits of it without anything added for the moment. Just need to persevere I think.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Slowly slowly catchy monkey! Keep plodding ahead with it!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Never heard that saying before


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

jpmad4it said:


> Never heard that saying before


It's based on the phrase "softly, softly catchee monkey", a phrase in quite common usage in my childhood in the 50's. Some believe it to be an old English proverb, and other sources ascribe it to Lord Baden-Powell, a lieutentant-general in the British Army and the founder of the Boy Scout Movement. He is said to have learnt the phrase when he was stationed in the Ashanti region of Ghana in the late 19th Century.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Blooming heck! That's a good explanation! I was expecting you to say someone told you it !


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

jpmad4it said:


> Blooming heck! That's a good explanation! I was expecting you to say someone told you it !


Well someone did -----when I was a child!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

I need to thank everyone who has given me priceless advice on this post. You have all been amazing. I now have a pussy cat eating raw and hopefully losing weight, all to make him healthier and prolong his life. So thank you. 

One last thing, handling the raw meat..... Do any of you have a ritual? Or am I being paranoid!


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

And what's the max time in microwavefor cold / semi defrosted meat? I've been doing 5-10 seconds and it starts spitting!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If it's spitting you're doing it way, way too long. Mine never goes in the microwave. I add a bit of kettle water to bring it to body temperature.

you're being paranoid! But we all were at the start! My kitchen is like a clean room anyway, so introducing raw to the cats gave me nightmares! Now, I simply wash hands well afterwards and spray a disinfectant and wipe over with a bit of kitchen roll which goes in the bin. I'm confident in my disinfectant (Safe4 kills pretty much everything) and so far, nobody's gotten sick, so it must be working! Bowls go in the dishwasher on a very hot wash.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I defrost my individual pots of raw at room temperature for an hour and then they go in the fridge until I am ready to serve it to the cats. They are generally happy to eat it straight from the fridge. Occasionally I might forget to defrost the meat in time and then I stand the little pots in hot water for 15 minutes to defrost them. I never put the meat in the microwave.

Hygiene wise, I wash my hands before preparing meat (i.e. grinding it and filling the individual containers), then after I've finished I dismantle the grinder straight away and wash it and my glass chopping board in very hot soapy water. I use a bottle brush to reach the awkward bits of the grinder. I scrub my nails with a nail brush. I wipe down the worktop with a lemon based surface cleaner.


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## jpmad4it (Apr 28, 2016)

Yeah Ive got a fork etc which I use only for separating out the raw meat. 

I am getting 2 days worth of food out a time and defrosting it. If it's any older he doesn't seem to like it even though it's not off. 

I'm washing his bowl and the cutlery separately in hot soapy water. I don't have a dishwasher.


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