# dog attacks owner 3 times, refuses to put the dog down.



## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Owner who needed emergency surgery after dog attacks insists they were her fault | Mail Online

This makes me feel really uncomfortable.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

She does seem somewhat deluded about the situation...


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

im in the same situation,although lottie is small she has bitten me and hubs a fair few times,we both needed stitches.we are at a loss at what to do,maybe shes the same.although lottie is extremely aggressive with most people.have to add she is muzzled when out.the size of her dog would make me pretty wary though.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

She needs professional help with that dog. 

He's already shown his willingness to attack her, so she's lower in the pecking order than him. How long before it's a fatal attack?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he should be PTS either, but i do think he needs some rehabilitation training to ensure it doesn't happen again.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I really, really hope that she seeks professional help with Boris too.


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## mollypip (Aug 17, 2011)

Whats really wrong with this is the fact she wont muzzle him in public. If the dog is getting upset, misreading situations or whatever it is thats setting him off at home, theres the very same risk outside the home. He could easily feel threatened or take exception to a passerby and just lunge - even on a lead a sudden bite to someone could happen before the handler has time to react.

She can risk her own safety but she has no right to put others at risk. She also needs to get serious professional help with understanding her dog and try and get to the root of the problem.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

She's saying 'the dog shows regret in his eyes' Dogs don't think like that, they can only live in the moment. He wouldn't remember that he ever bitten her. I agree the situation can be managed with him but she needs to understand a bit more about the dog's mind; ergo needing professional help.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

I'm willing to bet that she has a psychological condition which means that she needs people to see her as a martyr. 

(It's something that tends to be seen in parents/careers of ill children, involving the pathological need to be seen as ultimately self-sacrificing. Creeps the hell out of me, cos the ill person just becomes a pawn for someone else's personal gain. It's like Munchhausen's by proxy, except the person involved is actually ill.) 

But that's why I have issues with just going "OMG, how stupid is she?!  " :001_unsure:


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## branwen (Nov 27, 2013)

They really need help with their dog....and Thank God they don't have children.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I would have had the dog PTS a long time ago.

The dog is willing to bite its owner, what will it do to somebody else?

I wouldn't put myself or anybody else at risk with this dog.


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

I don't have a psychological condition,lotties a rescue,we are dealing with her issues,pts is a last resort which im not willing to contemplate yet.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lizz1155 said:


> *I'm willing to bet that she has a psychological condition which means that she needs people to see her as a martyr.
> *
> (It's something that tends to be seen in parents/careers of ill children, involving the pathological need to be seen as ultimately self-sacrificing. Creeps the hell out of me, cos the ill person just becomes a pawn for someone else's personal gain. It's like Munchhausen's by proxy, except the person involved is actually ill.)
> 
> But that's why I have issues with just going "OMG, how stupid is she?!  " :001_unsure:


An awful lot of people own dogs that will bite them whilst being perfectly well I am sure. It's a big old assumption to make that she is unwell from a quick Daily Hate article.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

princeno5 said:


> I don't have a psychological condition,lotties a rescue,we are dealing with her issues,pts is a last resort which im not willing to contemplate yet.


I hope I wasn't suggesting that "all people with dogs which bite have psychological conditions". That wasn't my intention. 

It was because she's gone to the newspapers to show off her bite marks/say she's keeping the dog that I was willing to bet there was something pathological. Not the fact that she's keeping a dog which bites.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lizz1155 said:


> I hope I wasn't suggesting that "all people with dogs which bite have psychological conditions". That wasn't my intention.
> 
> It was because she's gone to the newspapers to show off her bite marks/say she's keeping the dog that I was willing to bet there was something pathological.


A desire for money and for getting into a national newspaper maybe .


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Dogless said:


> A desire for money and for getting into a national newspaper .


You could well be right. Would also explain why people go on Embarrassing Bodies... (that's always baffled me)


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lizz1155 said:


> You could well be right. Would also explain why people go on Embarrassing Bodies... (that's always baffled me)


Embarrassing Bodies baffles me too...but each to their own :sosp:.


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## theWOOFhound (Jan 24, 2014)

what worries me there is that apparently the owners find it perfectly normal, that the dog would show what they call "protective behaviour". It is under no circumstances the dog's job to judge and deal with situations, if he trusted the owner ... which he apparently doesn't.

The solution "he is behind a gate when I tell Wallis off now" is ridiculous. So what I imagine is:
- puppy and dog run about
- puppy does something wrong
- dog gets taken somewhere else
- puppy gets told off. BUT much too late, it won't be able to associate the wrong-doing with the "punishment"


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Embarrassing Bodies baffles me too...but each to their own :sosp:.


they get quicker help to treatment I bet. I was supposed to start a weight management course that I got weighed in for before Christmas but no sight of a letter yet. I'm not showing off my body on telly though.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Wiz201 said:


> they get quicker help to treatment I bet. I was supposed to start a weight management course that I got weighed in for before Christmas but no sight of a letter yet. I'm not showing off my body on telly though.


Yes, I was thinking desperation to have a condition treated. Sad that TV exploits the desire to seek help really.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

If my OH whacked me for whatever reason and I chose to rationalise that, and make it my fault, I would join the ranks of many many abused women who think in that way because they love their partners. (I've over simplified that I know leaving out the complex relationship issues in that situation)
This woman seems to be using her dogs as child substitutes which is probably why her thinking is skewed. I understand that she sees them as her responsibility (and the behavior) but it's a dangerous situation if she is only managing it (baby gate) and not seeking professional help as it may well escalate. Wonder what husband thinks?


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

hopefully the paper will pay her well and she can afford a proper behaviourist which can be expensive and hard too find if your not insured.we are,so the vets directed us to a specific behaviourist,have to say no improvement yet,but time will tell.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

IMO that dog should be removed for her own safety... she is clearly deluded and I am almost certain there will be a next time and god knows how bad it will be.
If that had happened to my wife the dog would have been pts instantly.
But i guess with growing up and owning Akita's (who are known to be powerfull and dominant) all my life, I have a different view altogether.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

That first photo shows some worrying body language imo.

I'd have been looking for professional help with the dog after the first incident personally. No way should a dog be attacking someone because they've told another dog off. And to say she's not even going to muzzle him in public is ridiculous. If she wants to risk her life then that's her choice but to put unsuspecting members of the public at risk from a dog who has shown he'll bite with such little provocation is just wrong.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

God forbid if she had nieces or nephews or friends with kids who will automatically tell a puppy off and that big old boy gets hold of a child


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Its owners like this that really do tarnish a good breed


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

What a complete twonk that woman is, people like her are the reason we have such poor legislation towards dog control!


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## lisaslovelys (Jun 7, 2013)

Sounds to me like she thinks of her dogs as her children and can see no wrong in that kind of behaviour 
Maybe when he actually goes for her throat she might see sense.. Or when the little dog starts copying the big one !!!!

If she chooses to be her dogs chew toy I say let her get on with it but totally agree that he should be muzzled in public .. The next time it could just be a childs face..


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Frenchwood said:


> She needs professional help with that dog.
> 
> He's already shown his willingness to attack her, so she's lower in the pecking order than him. How long before it's a fatal attack?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't think he should be PTS either, but i do think he needs some rehabilitation training to ensure it doesn't happen again.


It's nothing to do with any pecking order - and the comments on that article make me just as uncomfortable as the article itself! He's a big dog who's been allowed to get away with far too much because this deluded lady is treating him like the baby she never had!

I doubt he's ever had any real training or obedience work done with him, and there's probably many other factors she's not mentioning. She sounds very naive in her ideas about raising a dog... :001_unsure:


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Wiz201 said:


> She's saying 'the dog shows regret in his eyes' *Dogs don't think like that, they can only live in the moment.* He wouldn't remember that he ever bitten her. I agree the situation can be managed with him but she needs to understand a bit more about the dog's mind; ergo needing professional help.


Now there's a statement often used with no evidence whatever to back it up and plenty to contradict it. If dogs lived in the moment, there wouldn't be the numerous cases on this forum alone of dogs that have experienced a traumatic event and been radically changed by it.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Silly mare 

It does make me wonder though what does this "telling off" actually involve


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> *That first photo shows some worrying body language imo.*
> 
> I'd have been looking for professional help with the dog after the first incident personally. No way should a dog be attacking someone because they've told another dog off. And to say she's not even going to muzzle him in public is ridiculous. If she wants to risk her life then that's her choice but to put unsuspecting members of the public at risk from a dog who has shown he'll bite with such little provocation is just wrong.


And in the 5th photo, the one where she's looming over him


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

What a fruit loop. She's delusional and needs help.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

Argent said:


> It's nothing to do with any pecking order - and the comments on that article make me just as uncomfortable as the article itself! He's a big dog who's been allowed to get away with far too much because this deluded lady is treating him like the baby she never had!
> 
> I doubt he's ever had any real training or obedience work done with him, and there's probably many other factors she's not mentioning. She sounds very naive in her ideas about raising a dog... :001_unsure:


Maybe I should've phrased that better. By pecking order, I mean respect. If you have a strong bond with your dog, you earn respect. If your dog respects you, then it's highly unlikely that they would turn on you like this without there being a serious issue.

My OH has startled Blue a couple of times and he's warned her by air snapping. I have done the same with no recourse. After speaking to Canine behavioural therapist (Blue's training School), she mentioned that it's probably due to the fact that he's probably got too much respect to behave that way with me.

If you notice in the Article; there's no mention of him biting her OH. Perhaps because there is more respect there.

The woman is doing something wrong. Probably in her punishment of the pup. As her dog sees her as lower in the respect scale, she's a target for correction herself; much like a puppy would be.

Hope that makes more sense? lol.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Frenchwood said:


> Maybe I should've phrased that better. By pecking order, I mean respect. If you have a strong bond with your dog, you earn respect. If your dog respects you, then it's highly unlikely that they would turn on you like this without there being a serious issue.
> 
> My OH has startled Blue a couple of times and he's warned her by air snapping. I have done the same with no recourse. After speaking to Canine behavioural therapist (Blue's training School), she mentioned that it's probably due to the fact that he's probably got too much respect to behave that way with me.
> 
> ...


Yeah I think I see where you're coming from  Sorry it's just any words like 'pecking order', 'pack', 'boss' and 'leader' are practically triggers for me, I just hate dominance to death, it's such dangerous talk >.<

My 'theory' on it (because I haven't actually seen any of the behaviours) is that rather than respect, it could be more that the dog sees her as more threatening because she might be inconsistent and unpredictable in her behaviours and that's why he's more likely to go for her.

Same could be said in your household if you're the one who does the most with your dog and provides the stability/routine to the dogs everyday life, maybe she sees your OH as a little more unpredictable, especially as he's startled her on a couple of occassions? (Not to say your pup has actually 'gone for' your OH beyond an air-snap!  )

I'm purely speculating as I have no idea really! But that's just my ideas on the situation!  I'm really into behaviour and the human/dog relationship


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Silly mare
> 
> It does make me wonder though what does this "telling off" actually involve


I wondered the same.



> And in the 5th photo, the one where she's looming over him


Yup. Doesn't look a comfortable dog in any of them to me tbh and given his history...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

princeno5 said:


> I don't have a psychological condition,lotties a rescue,we are dealing with her issues,pts is a last resort which im not willing to contemplate yet.


that is your choice. I would certainly not keep even a small dog that bit with intent and managed to do damage. To keep a large dog that could very easily kill someone is downright stupid. A dog like that is a weapon, you are not allowed to keep a gun or a knife unless it is locked away so why should you be allowed to keep a dog which is as potentially dangerous - and no one has control over.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm not going to say whether or not the dog should be pts, but that woman is a dangerous idiot. Not only is she refusing to muzzle the dog and putting others in danger, her conclusion about the causes are ridiculous. She hasn't got a clue and while many owners don't either, her cluelessness is causing a serious danger. She's not alone either - it is frightening how many pet owners think the same way.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Frenchwood said:


> Maybe I should've phrased that better. By pecking order, I mean respect. If you have a strong bond with your dog, you earn respect. If your dog respects you, then it's highly unlikely that they would turn on you like this without there being a serious issue.
> 
> My OH has startled Blue a couple of times and he's warned her by air snapping. I have done the same with no recourse. After speaking to Canine behavioural therapist (Blue's training School), she mentioned that it's probably due to the fact that he's probably got too much respect to behave that way with me.
> 
> ...


Only makes sense if you believe the dog thinks she's a dog. I can only assume Blue's dog training school subscribes to dominance theory; oh dear.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

would the new legislation re dogs not be used in an instance such as this? dog attack on private property?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Silly mare
> 
> It does make me wonder though what does this "telling off" actually involve


Yes that's what I thought when she said she was telling the pup off for chewing the floor. Also the fact that she needs to keep the big lad behind a gate whilst she tells the pup off. I guess the adult dog is telling her off too for mishandling situations.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I wondered the same.
> 
> Yup. Doesn't look a comfortable dog in any of them to me tbh and given his history...


The first photo gave me the chills.
her hand on his throat. he looks tense.
fourth photo her standing up with a clenched. worried look about her.

I started to think she has low awareness of body language but then put those images in terms of the context , which is media photo shoot . I have seen similar 'dog holding ' poses on training book covers incl Cesar Milan.
which is ironic . and at crufts too

I have done one. provided my dog for rudetube episode with American 'dog. massuse ' in hotel room .

Director required shot of her on sofa cuddling dog which required full body hands round co


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

My dog more tense each take eventually growled . inevitable really . my bad. the show wasn't worth that but I learnt that next time as the handler my role hi direct the director 

so I think this has occurred with this photo shoot and Ishould imagine the media peeps were scared near this dog anyway


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Not read all of the posts this is an extremely dysfunctional relationship and one day that woman may die from the injuries that dog causes, like many victims of domestic violence do. 

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Not read all of the posts this is an extremely dysfunctional relationship and one day that woman may die from the injuries that dog causes, like many victims of domestic violence do.
> 
> There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.


I agree, but unfortunately, it may not just be the woman that becomes the victim.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> Yes that's what I thought when she said she was telling the pup off for chewing the floor. Also the fact that she needs to keep the big lad behind a gate whilst she tells the pup off. I guess the adult dog is telling her off too for mishandling situations.


I have a bullmastiff, gorgeous but big powerful girl. She is good for me but really she is my husband's dog and what she will do for him in a nano second takes me a bit longer....but thats ok, she is still a good girl for me and no problems.

My bullmastiff ate my kitchen floor.....and I yelled at her for doing it. She looked at me....8 months old, she didn't know that you are not supposed to eat the kitchen floor. She never once attempted to bite me.

I got a new floor put down.

3 months later, dog ate the floor again. I yelled at her again..cos I was mad. Dog once again never showed any aggression towards me.
then I got the floor tiled but luckily since she was 11 months old she hasn't chewed anything else up.
She has never shown any aggression towards anybody.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

Argent said:


> Yeah I think I see where you're coming from  Sorry it's just any words like 'pecking order', 'pack', 'boss' and 'leader' are practically triggers for me, I just hate dominance to death, it's such dangerous talk >.<
> 
> My 'theory' on it (because I haven't actually seen any of the behaviours) is that rather than respect, it could be more that the dog sees her as more threatening because she might be inconsistent and unpredictable in her behaviours and that's why he's more likely to go for her.
> 
> ...


I know exactly what you're saying, no need to apologise, I phrased poorly. I was talking about the bond more than any Pack/Dominance/Alpha mentality crap.

I definitely agree with what you're saying. I find it really strange that her OH hasn't been bitten. There's definitely something going on there.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> Only makes sense if you believe the dog thinks she's a dog. I can only assume Blue's dog training school subscribes to dominance theory; oh dear.


No not at all, you assume incorrectly. It's quite the opposite.

Ok, try the following situation:

My dog and I have a very strong bond. If I'm play fighting with my OH, who does Blue side with (playfully of course)?

Me. Every time. Whether I'm winning or not. Why? Because he respects me more? Because in that scenario, my OH is an open target?

It is truly difficult to pinpoint the actual reasoning behind why this woman has become a target for her own dog, but the point I was trying to make is that there's evidently no bond. No mutual respect. 
You could see it in the way I would see an acquaintance over a friend. I'll side with the friend over the acquaintance in an argument or threatening situation every time irrespective of the situation, out of loyalty and respect.

I really don't think I'm explaining myself very well today! :lol:


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

sheer lunacy. the dogs need removing for her and their own safety. no way can you have a breed like that and treat it like a child , always have to maintain the upper hand , she just isn't in any way capable , stupid woman.


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## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

I can think of very little that's sadder than a dog forced to live an existence as a surrogate child. 

It's no wonder that he now has behavioural problems. His every move through life has been given a human emotion attached to it. His dog needs ignored. No training, no thought given to preventing a big, powerful dog acting inappropriately, no boundaries, even to the point of allowing him to maul his owner!

Poor dog never stood a chance  The road ahead for him just leads to more confusion, more attacks and a miserable existence until he chooses to show his frustrations so forcefully that he is pts.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Frenchwood said:


> *No not at all, you assume incorrectly. It's quite the opposite*.
> 
> Ok, try the following situation:
> 
> ...


Not according to the website.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> Not according to the website.


Which Website? 

I'll Pm you, as this seems a bit off topic.

ETA: Resolved in PM. Mistaken identity. I look like CM (that's a lie!! Lol)


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Nagini said:


> sheer lunacy. the dogs need removing for her and their own safety. no way can you have a breed like that and treat it like a child , always have to maintain the upper hand , she just isn't in any way capable , stupid woman.


I have a problem with this upper hand stuff. I have a bullmastiff now aged 2.5 years. She is treated like a dog and not a child....and saying breed like that......any dog can be dangerous.

The bully is my husband's dog and just can't do anything he asks of her fast enough. She is fine with me, just prefers my husband.

The dog is far stronger than I am, there is no way I could overpower her.and I don't want to bully her to make her do whatever I want.".1 volunteer is worth 10 pressed men."


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I cannot understand how this woman is happy to take this dog out without wearing a muzzle. She may be ok being bitten by him but can she really live with herself if it were someone else. 

If he really wanted to go for someone would she really be able to control him? 

From a legal perspective (although I realise she was bitten in her own home) could she be made to muzzle this dog if out especially if she was walking him in public places?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nagini said:


> sheer lunacy. the dogs need removing for her and their own safety. no way can you have a breed like that and treat it like a child , always have to maintain the upper hand , she just isn't in any way capable , stupid woman.


See comments like this don't help??????????? Breeds like what? Always maintain an upper hand? What's that about? Breeds "like that" aren't plotting world domination...

I find the story incredibility sad for the woman, but more so for the dog! I hope some kind hearted ( sensible ) behaviorist will reach out and offer her and the dog some help. The choice to get to PTS is totally hers and it is her life and safety, I just hope for the safety of others and the dogs welfare she's offer help and takes it....


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I understand why she wouldn't want to put the dog down - that is a hard thing to do at the best of times - but to refuse to muzzle him in public is so dangerous to others, what if a child runs up to him and gets mauled, very stupid not to consider that he may be unsafe around others, I do hope she will get a trainer or some help with him, not being able to tell a dog no without the risk of being attacked can't be a nice way to live life, always on edge.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> I have a problem with this upper hand stuff. I have a bullmastiff now aged 2.5 years. She is treated like a dog and not a child....and saying breed like that......any dog can be dangerous.
> 
> The bully is my husband's dog and just can't do anything he asks of her fast enough. She is fine with me, just prefers my husband.
> 
> The dog is far stronger than I am, there is no way I could overpower her.and I don't want to bully her to make her do whatever I want.".1 volunteer is worth 10 pressed men."


kept mastiffs best part of 25 years  now have a cane corso and akita which are far from easy breeds
both my dogs could easily overpower me , they choose not to , neither have been bullied , just cleverly manipulated 
i have well rounded dogs that know their place and just to be clear i have ''breeds like that'' each dog knows the rules and their boundaries.
i have no problems letting them know what i expect from them and how they are expected to behave around myself or anyone else. there is absolutely no way i would keep a dog , a huge powerful dog , that had attacked not just once but three times , the dog would have been gone , yesterday.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nagini said:


> kept mastiffs best part of 25 years  now have a cane corso and akita which are far from easy breeds
> both my dogs could easily overpower me , they choose not to , neither have been bullied , just cleverly manipulated
> i have well rounded dogs that know their place and just to be clear i have ''breeds like that'' each dog knows the rules and their boundaries.
> i have no problems letting them know what i expect from them and how they are expected to behave around myself or anyone else. there is absolutely no way i would keep a dog , a huge powerful dog , that had attacked not just once but three times , the dog would have been gone , yesterday.


I still don't think "breeds like that" is a particularly valid and sensible statement, they are dogs, they are not a higher being, if you can't out smart a dog there's something wrong, you have the upper hand just simply by being human... Slightly concerning that someone who as kept "mastiffs best part of 25 years" would play in to the hand of BSL using statements such as " breeds like that".


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

I don't subscribe to the whole "dangerous breed" theory. 

Yes some breeds are trained to be more aggressive with their original "job spec" if you like (consider the UK banned breed list - the dogs on there typically have a fighting/guarding background), so may be a little more prone to aggressive tendencies without proper training, but saying one breed is any more dangerous than another is lunacy (although I'd probably show less fear around a teacup chihuahua baring it's teeth than I would a Rotti, or a Mastiff)!

All dogs are potential killers. So are all humans. So are all cars. It's the education that's provided that makes the difference. 

In this instance the woman concerned needs education. By a professional. The dog evidently can behave well, as noted in her commentary, as well as by the assumed fact that her OH has never been attacked.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Silly mare
> 
> It does make me wonder though what does this "telling off" actually involve


this was also my first thought. maybe this is why her oh never gets bitten.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I still don't think "breeds like that" is a particularly valid and sensible statement, they are dogs, they are not a higher being, if you can't out smart a dog there's something wrong, you have the upper hand just simply by being human... Slightly concerning that someone who as kept "mastiffs best part of 25 years" would play in to the hand of BSL using statements such as " breeds like that".


yourself and lilythepink have totally misinterpreted the way it was actually meant due to myself not being clear enough , i'd have said the same about any other breed behaving in such a way towards it's owner. the woman and the dog are mismatched , clash of personalities between dog and owner.
as for BSL it will exist as long as enough of these incidents keep on happening due to the inadequacies of some dog owners. she shouldn't have a dog , any breed of dog for that matter as more than likely the end result would have still been the same for the woman in the article.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe if she was told had to pay for any future treatment for dog bites she would get some proper help


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I still don't think "breeds like that" is a particularly valid and sensible statement, they are dogs, they are not a higher being, if you can't out smart a dog there's something wrong, you have the upper hand just simply by being human... Slightly concerning that someone who as kept "mastiffs best part of 25 years" would play in to the hand of BSL using statements such as " breeds like that".


I dont see anything wrong with saying 'breeds like that'. They are big powerful dogs that will inflict damage if they try to.
There are also breeds which are small and suited to being lapdogs so if describing dogs that enjoy that lifestyle they would be 'breeds like that'.
Dogs that are very active and need some sort of work to keep them occupied can also be described as 'breeds like that'.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I dont see anything wrong with saying 'breeds like that'. They are big powerful dogs that will inflict damage if they try to.
> There are also breeds which are small and suited to being lapdogs so if describing dogs that enjoy that lifestyle they would be 'breeds like that'.
> Dogs that are very active and need some sort of work to keep them occupied can also be described as 'breeds like that'.


Agree. I was chatting to a policeman about dogs the other day and he motioned towards my car as he said that too many people keep "breeds like that" without giving them what they need in terms of exercise. I just took the phrase as meaning large, active dogs.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

this is my post that has caused some confusion.



Nagini said:


> sheer lunacy. the dogs need removing for her and their own safety. no way can you have a breed like that and treat it like a child , always have to maintain the upper hand , she just isn't in any way capable , stupid woman.


i never said ''breeds like that'' :hand: 
i don't think i really need to point out the dog needs firm consistency with someone who knows the breed well , it certainly does not need an owner who is willing to let the dog walk all over her. i stand by what i said. i regard my dogs as my babies , it does not mean they are treated as such and allowed to take liberties , which is what this dog is doing because its owner is allowing it to do so.
the world don't need dog owners like this , sadly theres enough of them and it's the dogs that pay the ultimate price:frown2:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I dont see anything wrong with saying 'breeds like that'. They are big powerful dogs that will inflict damage if they try to.
> There are also breeds which are small and suited to being lapdogs so if describing dogs that enjoy that lifestyle they would be 'breeds like that'.
> Dogs that are very active and need some sort of work to keep them occupied can also be described as 'breeds like that'.


I'm sure you don't as you don't have a breed that's going to be put under the title of " breed like that".

There is no difference in how you should treat a poodle to how you should treat a PitBull, you do have to take in to account EACH breeds trait, but every dog should be treated with respect and trained correctly. Lots of dogs are very active and need some sort of work to keep them occupied, why should I owning what's consider and " breed like that" have to find some sort of work for my dog, when you shouldn't with your breed?

It's not about breeds like that, it's about knowing dogs and treating them with respect irrespective of breed. You are talking BSL like talk, and it shouldn't be about a breed, it should be about how EVERY dog owner should be made responsible for the dog irrespective of it's breed.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Agree. I was chatting to a policeman about dogs the other day and he motioned towards my car as he said that too many people keep "breeds like that" without giving them what they need in terms of exercise. I just took the phrase as meaning large, active dogs.


But if it was meant in the context of dogs who bite would you be so happy?


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I'm sure you don't as you don't have a breed that's going to be put under the title of " breed like that".
> 
> There is no difference in how you should treat a poodle to how you should treat a PitBull, you do have to take in to account EACH breeds trait, but every dog should be treated with respect and trained correctly. Lots of dogs are very active and need some sort of work to keep them occupied, why should I owning what's consider and " breed like that" have to find some sort of work for my dog, when you shouldn't with your breed?
> 
> It's not about breeds like that, it's about knowing dogs and treating them with respect irrespective of breed. You are talking BSL like talk, and it shouldn't be about a breed, it should be about how EVERY dog owner should be made responsible for the dog irrespective of it's breed.





Meezey said:


> But if it was meant in the context of dogs who bite would you be so happy?


if others can grasp the meaning of a ''breed like that'' said in the context it was truly meant (as in don't treat your huge dog as a human baby and not expect repercussions) why can't you?
should it not be the woman in the article you should be finding problems with rather than trying to pick apart what i actually meant
i actually have a problem with people who won't take responsibility for their actions , talk about being blinded by love for your dog that has shown dangerous behaviour three times , next time she (or someone else) may not be as lucky , if that article is anything to go by , there will be a next time lets just hope it's not an innocent bystander who is in no way at fault for this dogs behaviour.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nagini said:


> if others can grasp the meaning of a ''breed like that'' said in the context it was truly meant (as in don't treat your huge dog as a human baby and not expect repercussions) why can't you?
> should it not be the woman in the article you should be finding problems with rather than trying to pick apart what i actually meant
> i actually have a problem with people who won't take responsibility for their actions , talk about being blinded by love for your dog that has shown dangerous behaviour three times , next time she (or someone else) may not be as lucky , if that article is anything to go by , there will be a next time lets just hope it's not an innocent bystander who is in no way at fault for this dogs behaviour.


and where did I say I didn't find any problems with the woman?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

She's crackers!

I would have the dog properly examined to eliminate any chance of illness (e.g. brain tumour) causing the aggression, but if all was well, and he was still unpredictable, I'd get rid! PTS - even if it broke my heart.

A large breed like that is far to powerful to take a risk with - he could kill someone easily - his sheer weight makes him a danger if he throws himself onto someone - and what if one day that someone is a child, or a vulnerable person. SHe claims that he has never been aggressive to anyone except her - well, once pom a time he wash't even aggressive towards her - there is always a first time, and having crossed that line once, further aggression becomes more likely.

I don't know how old the other dog is, but she will be learning behaviour from him. There is a chance that one day these dogs will both attach her - or someone else - and if that happens, it could be fatal.

If she can't bear to destroy her dog, she should get a good behaviourist in - and re-home the pup. There could be a dynamic there that makes him more likely to attack if she is around. And he is an entire male - if the pup isn't neutered, how do they expect to safely keep the two of them apart when the bitch comes into season? (Yes - I know breeders manage, but breeders of dogs that size tend to have plenty of space and good strong kennels to house the dogs appropriately.)

If anyone is hurt because of this deluded woman's selfish idiocy, I hope they sue the @rse off her. And I can't believe this is a happy dog, either. Happy dogs don't savage members of their family.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

All I could think after I read that was how long will it be before this paper is writing a follow up story that is about a more severe 4th attack.

It is clear that this dog is not happy with something and each attack seems to have been worse than the one before. Their solution ... a gate? .... how long will it be before Boris learns the gate only happens when this lady is going to tell the pup off /or anything else that he does not like and he is 'trapped. 
I imagine it wont be long before he associates the gate with bad things and starts to react over that because he knows it is a pre cursor ?

I hope she at least seeks professional help. 

The bit about her walking him without a muzzle  words fail me.
But it does make me wonder how many dogs have I fussed after an owner claims they are big soppy things, when in reality the dog has probably attacked numerous times. Yet the owner see them as babies that can do no wrong and are in some serious denial.......


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Having just looked at the article I'm gobsmacked. I don't know what the dogs issues have been caused by, what I do know is that the photos', to me, show a very troubled dog, however much it grieves me to say it I believe the best thing to do would be to have the animal put to sleep. As much as I love my pair, if one of them ever attacked me or anyone else in such a way that would be the outcome.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Let's hope it never goes for the throat. I was speaking to a lady with a Patterdale that used to continuously attack her and she had some quite severe injuries from it. It turns out the dog had a brain tumour.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

springerpete said:


> Having just looked at the article I'm gobsmacked.* I don't know what the dogs issues have been caused by, what I do know is that the photos', to me, show a very troubled dog,* however much it grieves me to say it I believe the best thing to do would be to have the animal put to sleep. As much as I love my pair, if one of them ever attacked me or anyone else in such a way that would be the outcome.


A couple of others have commented on this, too, and I have to agree. This isn't a comfortable-looking dog, and the owner looks as if she's scared it's going to rip a lump out of her at any moment. If you can't be confident around your dog, your own anxiety will make him edgy and aggressive.


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

She is a nutcase,her husband probably kicks the crap out of her.
How could you let dog attack your wife beggers belief,the dogs damaged.
She should not be given a say in the matter,authorities should take the dog and put it down.
Compareing dog to children,she is away with the mixer.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I'm sure you don't as you don't have a breed that's going to be put under the title of " breed like that".
> 
> There is no difference in how you should treat a poodle to how you should treat a PitBull, you do have to take in to account EACH breeds trait, but every dog should be treated with respect and trained correctly. Lots of dogs are very active and need some sort of work to keep them occupied, why should I owning what's consider and " breed like that" have to find some sort of work for my dog, when you shouldn't with your breed?
> 
> It's not about breeds like that, it's about knowing dogs and treating them with respect irrespective of breed. You are talking BSL like talk, and it shouldn't be about a breed, it should be about how EVERY dog owner should be made responsible for the dog irrespective of it's breed.


Why on earth dont you read what is written instead of getting on your high horse over things. 
Plenty of people would say they do not want or like 'breeds like that' when talking about poodles because they would not want to be clipping or want a small dog or think if them as lapdogs.
I would not get a working cocker because I do not want a 'breed like that' which needs a lot of stimulation to keep it happy.
You must have a very funny outlook on dogs if you think every dog has exactly the same needs and that breeds cannot be grouped together according to their type - even the kennel club classify breeds


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I have to say I couldnt keep a dog that had attacked me three times, big or small. The only alternative would be to have him PTS, unless of course it was a medical issue that could be cured.

At the very least she should be muzzling him in public. Only thing with people like this is that they only have regrets once its too late.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Meezey said:


> But if it was meant in the context of dogs who bite would you be so happy?


Yes, I'd be fine - I'd take it as meaning large, powerful dogs again. Something like "breeds like that can do some damage" wouldn't bother me. They can. I get a lot of prejudice in certain places but have come to expect some of it and just nod and smile.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Believe me, my Flyte, just over five stone, could, should he wish, do as much damage as any dog, but, because he's a Retriever, people expect him to be a ''Big old softy'' which he is, but it would be a mistake to underestimate his potential to cause damage just because of his type.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I wonder how much 'telling off' he got as a puppy and what she's going to do when she has two large mastiff dogs to 'tell off'? Maybe her dog didn't appreciate her behaviour and is becoming frightened and worried when she displays the same behaviour directed at the pup. She needs to stop telling her dogs off and learn how to train them instead, but clearly she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong, punishing a dog for chewing.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> I wonder how much 'telling off' he got as a puppy and what she's going to do when she has two large mastiff dogs to 'tell off'? Maybe her dog didn't appreciate her behaviour and is becoming frightened and worried when she displays the same behaviour directed at the pup. She needs to stop telling her dogs off and learn how to train them instead, but clearly she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong, punishing a dog for chewing.


I was wondering the same TBH! 'Telling off' just confuses them 

It worries me very much that she refuses to muzzle him in public


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

I certainly sympathise, but IMHO, this is person is deluded, is she taking this dog out in public? 

It's all very well being devoted to your pet, but she doesn't seem to have learned anything, what with the 'telling off' etc.

This wreaks of a situation that won't resolve until somebody (who isn't so tolerant) will be seriously injured or killed. 

Either put him to sleep or rehome him to some MUCH more knowledgeable, glad she doesn't live near me!!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Why on earth dont you read what is written instead of getting on your high horse over things.
> Plenty of people would say they do not want or like 'breeds like that' when talking about poodles because they would not want to be clipping or want a small dog or think if them as lapdogs.
> I would not get a working cocker because I do not want a 'breed like that' which needs a lot of stimulation to keep it happy.
> You must have a very funny outlook on dogs if you think every dog has exactly the same needs and that breeds cannot be grouped together according to their type - even the kennel club classify breeds


So the KC type breeds of dogs that might bite and dogs that don't? Hmmm interesting!

No people would say I don't want a dog who needs grooming a lot!

The reference wasn't about dog that needs grooming, or clipping or needing ribbons in it's hair! "no way can you have a breed like that and treat it like a child , always have to maintain the upper hand" isn't about grooming...

Pot kettle black, High horse, well I think you'd be the Grand Dame of that wouldn't you, want to go back and read you spitting your dummy out over people mentioning health test


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Yes, I'd be fine - I'd take it as meaning large, powerful dogs again. Something like "breeds like that can do some damage" wouldn't bother me. They can. I get a lot of prejudice in certain places but have come to expect some of it and just nod and smile.


While I do expect prejudice given the breed I have, I don't expect it from people who are in the breed, who have been in the breed or have large breeds themselves..


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I would agree that it's better to be an experienced, sensible dog owner if you want to own a breed like that.  If you're a silly woman, who won't muzzle your dog, or even attempt to train him properly, you certainly shouldn't own a breed like that and certainly not own two examples.

She should own a breed like this:


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Meezey said:


> While I do expect prejudice given the breed I have, I don't expect it from people who are in the breed, who have been in the breed or have large breeds themselves..


you really are extracting the pee now what i said and what it meant wasn't in a prejudice way towards any breed.
jade anderson was killed by ''large dogs''  that were thought of in exactly the same way (owner considered them 'babies') how many more bloody more people have got to be mauled or killed before people start taking responsibility for their animals.
it isn't about BSL , it's about being responsible , which that woman is not


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

And she's bred it with her friend's dog. Great - more puppies with iffy temperaments!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> I would agree that it's better to be an experienced, sensible dog owner if you want to own a breed like that.  If you're a silly woman, who won't muzzle your dog, or even attempt to train him properly, you certainly shouldn't own a breed like that and certainly not own two examples.
> *
> She should own a breed like this:*


Not sure about that - this dog looks a bit unstable to me 



rocco33 said:


> *And she's bred it with her friend's dog. * Great - more puppies with iffy temperaments!


I missed that bit - the red fog in front of my eyes must have shrouded my vision - but maybe explains why she doesn't want rid - too much potential income being destroyed. And now she's got a bitch as well. This is NOT a reassuring situation.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Not read all the thread, but skimmed through the article but he looks a very uncomfortable dog in a lot of those photos but especially the first one.

I do hope she gets some help for her and Boris mind


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

The dogs comfort seems to vary between pictures. Can't see a mention of her having a vet assess whether he has an underlying medical issue which would be the first thing to do.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Nagini said:


> you really are extracting the pee now what i said and what it meant wasn't in a prejudice way towards any breed.
> jade anderson was killed by ''large dogs''  that were thought of in exactly the same way (owner considered them 'babies') how many more bloody more people have got to be mauled or killed before people start taking responsibility for their animals.
> it isn't about BSL , it's about being responsible , which that woman is not


Two SBT were involved which aren't large dogs. I don't think she saw them as babies given the cruelty charges she was given. Probably more like breeding machines. But, yes, she was a cretinous and awful owner whose incompetence predicated her death.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> And she's bred it with her friend's dog. Great - more puppies with iffy temperaments!


Oh, did she? 
Won't be long before the BYB culture unravels even more, then.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

lostbear said:


> Not sure about that - this dog looks a bit unstable to me
> 
> I missed that bit - the red fog in front of my eyes must have shrouded my vision - but maybe explains why she doesn't want rid - too much potential income being destroyed. And now she's got a bitch as well. This is NOT a reassuring situation.


I'm not sure she uses him as a stud dog, the report said that he was the father of their other dog when she had bred him with a friend's dog. In fact, she uses the excuse that he was protecting his daughter (the other dog) when she was telling her off and that was why he attacked her. 

I suspect it's more of a case of her mothering of him extended to wanting him to become a daddy  you can almost guarantee poorly bred, no health tests - and certainly didn't consider temperament. I can't imagine the pups would have gone to any better homes either.... so a ticking time bomb.


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Cant judge the dog by couple photos.She with her hand round dogs throat looks more threatening.Dog looks quite submissive to me.
"Breeds like that" these dogs are not family dogs,bred this size for a reason and thats to guard people or property they are useless for enything else.Bring one into your family and its just a case of when,there jaws are so powerful they only have to bite you once to cause major damage.
Then you put it down for what it was bred to do.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not sure she uses him as a stud dog, the report said that he was the father of their other dog when she had bred him with a friend's dog.


He's a stud dog, if he's been used ONCE. That's like saying someone on Jeremy Kyle isn't a parent because they only had one kid when a condom failed.

I also don't think this dog is a Bull Mastiff, as in the accepted KC recognised breed. Aggression in BMs is not allowed and isn't a feature of that breed.

It might be more true to say he is a mixture of various Mastiff breeds, from a background of BYBs churning out status dogs sold to anyone with the cash and the want, which might include some breeds/individuals with more of a propensity to aggression than usual.

Genes Count Too aka If I hear "It's all in how you raise them" one more time…


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Cant judge the dog by couple photos.She with her hand round dogs throat looks more threatening.Dog looks quite submissive to me.
> "Breeds like that" *these dogs are not family dogs,bred this size for a reason and thats to guard people or property they are useless for enything else.Bring one into your family and its just a case of when*,there jaws are so powerful they only have to bite you once to cause major damage.
> Then you put it down for what it was bred to do.


Are you being serious or sarcastic?


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Serious,its what they where bred to do.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Never mind.

Darwin will shortly remove her from the gene pool. You can't be THAT stupid and live.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Serious,its what they where bred to do.


Dont you have a dogue de bordeaux?
Do you know what they were bred to do?


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## Crankyhorse (Sep 18, 2011)

Being photographed smiling in the national press in that manner forces me to conclude that the woman is an attention seeking weirdo.

I have not formed such a strong opinion about the dog however.


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Don't you have a dogue de bordeaux?
> Do you know what they were bred to do?


Yes,though i think my dog was bred to simply eat and ****.
Also have pitbull and bulljack


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Yes,though i think my dog was bred to simply eat and ****.
> Also have pitbull and bulljack


Do you live in america, perchance ?


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Do you live in america, perchance ?


lol,Whats with all the questions.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Crankyhorse said:


> Being photographed smiling in the national press in that manner forces me to conclude that the woman is an attention seeking weirdo.


Possibly - just possibly - that might be the personality type that takes on strong mixed breed status-type dogs, with a lot of roar and muscle, instead of a Labrador or Bichon.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Yes,though i think my dog was bred to simply eat and ****.


Oh never mind. I see that youre getting rid of the DDB (and other two?) now with a grandchild on the way. 
I actually feel kind of sorry for people like you 

Our children have greatly benefitted from being raised alongside our guardian breed family dogs. With the right kind of socialization, effective training, and a solid relationship of mutual trust and respect, my children have had the benefit of learning lessons in unconditional love, responsibility, compassion, all wrapped up in a best-friend and confidant.

Too bad your grandchild wont have that same opportunity, but given your apparent knowledge about the guardian breeds, probably for the best....


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Oh get it,my choice of dog has always been jackrussels.
The bordeuxe and pitbull where put on me when they where couple months old, "could you mind these for me" they never came back for them and time passed i got attached to them,they became part of family.

Just read your post.Dont feel sorry for me you dont know circumstances,Oh and never,never trust your dog.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Serious,its what they where bred to do.


Irrelevant comment.

My dog was bred to herd sheep, and yes the innate behaviour IS there.

Can he do it? No. He's a failed working dog. 
Does he do it? No. 
Is he unhappy? No.

Why? Because the environment he lives in and was brought up in has not brought out his innate breed behaviour. That's doesn't mean that it can't be bought out, just that it hasn't been. Some behaviours remain (BC Eye), but this is because it's been allowed to flourish.

Just because a dog was once bred for a purpose, doesn't mean that that's all they'll do. You have to train them to become what they were intended to be.

You don't see Rottweilers pulling butcher's carts around all day. From what you're saying, they'll always do that; because it was what they were bred for hundreds of years ago!

With your rationale all ferraris must be race cars, and all lamborghinis tractors! ut:

You tell us what an 8 breed cross was "bred" to do then.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> lol,Whats with all the questions.


just curious...

if you were british its unlikely you could be a pitbull owner.
been banned over here for years


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Cant judge the dog by couple photos.She with her hand round dogs throat looks more threatening.Dog looks quite submissive to me.
> "Breeds like that" these dogs are not family dogs,bred this size for a reason and thats to guard people or property they are useless for enything else.Bring one into your family and its just a case of when,there jaws are so powerful they only have to bite you once to cause major damage.
> Then you put it down for what it was bred to do.


Now that I know this post was meant to be taken as posted, Ill respond.

Baloney.

Bullmastiffs are indeed large guardian breed dogs, they do have guarding instincts that have to be taken seriously and properly managed, but they can certainly make great family dogs in the right home, and they most certainly not useless at anything else.

If I remember right, as a breed they were developed with such size so that they could hold the intruder - pin him to the ground, without mauling him. So its not like it was a breed bred to be particularly ferocious in the guarding department.

This woman is clearly a troubled soul and has created a huge problem for herself and anyone else who comes in contact with this dog. In this case, breed has little if nothing to do with it.


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Are you drinking your dogs p2ss?
Your the one who is talking balony,lol.
They should be under the dangerous dogs breed.

If you remember right,meaning you googled your reply.
Pin him to ground,with out mauling him+500 PSI jaw,dont think i want my granchild in that position just in case it forgets and bites her.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Are you drinking your dogs p2ss?
> Your the one who is talking balony,lol.
> They should be under the dangerous dogs breed.
> 
> ...


do you believe everything you read on google too? just curious.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm embarrassed that you own a DDB. From what I've read from your comments you seem to know two things with DDB and dogs in general. Jack and sh1t, and Jack left town.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Are you drinking your dogs p2ss?
> Your the one who is talking balony,lol.
> They should be under the dangerous dogs breed.
> 
> ...


suggesting adding breeds to the DDA list is, for me, like suggesting adding religions to the blasphemy list.
when both lists themselves are erroneous, make no logical sense, and havent even proved effective in doing what they aimed to achieve.
therefore should be abolished


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Cant judge the dog by couple photos.She with her hand round dogs throat looks more threatening.Dog looks quite submissive to me.
> "Breeds like that" these dogs are not family dogs,bred this size for a reason and thats to guard people or property they are useless for enything else.Bring one into your family and its just a case of when,there jaws are so powerful they only have to bite you once to cause major damage.
> Then you put it down for what it was bred to do.





sleepyhead said:


> Serious,its what they where bred to do.


bullmastiffs were originally gamekeepers dogs , bred to chase pin and hold until assistance arrived , definitely not bred to attack , great family dogs in the right hands , just not the numpty woman in the article


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Going to bed,good night,god bless and the dogs are going in the yard,lol.

Change of plan,the bordeuxe jumped on the couch and give me the look that said he aint moving,think i will leave him be.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

sleepyhead said:


> Going to bed,good night,god bless and the dogs are going in the yard,lol.
> 
> Change of plan,the bordeuxe jumped on the couch and give me the look that said he aint moving,think i will leave him be.


You rest easy there bud, in God's own US of A. 
Pity the rest of the world and their skewed attitude to dogs, they got it wrong and your god blessed country has it right. Ain't that the truth!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Are you drinking your dogs p2ss?
> Your the one who is talking balony,lol.
> They should be under the dangerous dogs breed.
> 
> ...


Nice try. 
I actually have a modicum of experience with guardian-breed dogs and have purposefully educated myself about them over the years.

Dogs are perfectly capable of controlling the force of their bite and do so all the time in a variety of contexts. 
Ive said this on many occasions in these discussions, if my child *had* to get bitten with intent, I would rather it be by our own great dane who I know has excellent bite inhibition, than by any smaller dog with an unknown bite inhibition.

But yes, if you think your DDB is suddenly going to forget himself and maul your grandchild, then youre right, you should probably not own that dog - or any dog for that matter


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Nice try.
> I actually have a modicum of experience with guardian-breed dogs and have purposefully educated myself about them over the years.
> 
> Dogs are perfectly capable of controlling the force of their bite and do so all the time in a variety of contexts.
> ...


LOL,my god dont believe the crap your spouting,give up. IF.

Bite inhibition,cant sleep for laughing,no more,please,no more,lol.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> LOL,my god dont believe the crap your spouting,give up. IF.


what is IF supposed to mean? if you honestly believe your dog is going to maul your grandchild , then it's all to down to you , nothing at all to do with the dog.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> LOL,my god dont believe the crap your spouting,give up. IF.


Are you capable of having an actual discussion here or is your idea of a conversation the equivalent of nuh huh to every post?

Dog bites are a complex brew of inherent temperaments, breed traits, triggers, thresholds, bite style, bite inhibition, impulse-control, stress levels and tons of other factors.

I think its very clear that the dog in the article is not a safe dog. Not because hes a bullmastiff, but because hes owned by a very troubled and ignorant person who clearly has made some massive mistakes in training and management.

You cant extrapolate from this one article how ALL individuals of a breed will behave.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

sleepyhead said:


> Bite inhibition,cant sleep for laughing,no more,please,no more,lol.


Not doing yourself any favors here, just saying...


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Wouldn't put him down but if I were her I'd hand him over too someone who knows what their doing.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> You rest easy there bud, in God's own US of A.
> Pity the rest of the world and their skewed attitude to dogs, they got it wrong and your god blessed country has it right. Ain't that the truth!


Amazing how Americans don't get sarcasm .


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Are you capable of having an actual discussion here or is your idea of a conversation the equivalent of nuh huh to every post?
> 
> Dog bites are a complex brew of inherent temperaments, breed traits, triggers, thresholds, bite style, bite inhibition, impulse-control, stress levels and tons of other factors.
> 
> ...


If you know the man is isn't interested in an actual discussion why are you making yourself so easy ?
What's so important?


----------



## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

Snoringbear said:


> Amazing how Americans don't get sarcasm .


Hey now... lets not lump us all as one and the same!
Deed not breed (or would that be nationality?) 
Not to mention genius dog person hasnt admitted to being a Yank.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Snoringbear said:


> Amazing how Americans don't get sarcasm .


i don't think 'sleepyhead' is in USA.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> If you know the man is isn't interested in an actual discussion why are you making yourself so easy ?
> What's so important?


What am I making easy? 

Im operating under the assumption that sleepyhead is not the only one reading the thread. Youll notice that I tried to share some dog bite basics in my posts for the benefit of those willing to learn, research further, and expand their knowledge base.

Whats important to me is folks getting educated on dog safety, dog bite prevention, and the stupidness of BSL. If something in my posts spurs someone to research further, then the post was worthwhile.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> If you know the man is isn't interested in an actual discussion why are you making yourself so easy ?
> What's so important?


it's important to rubbish the ridiculous claims said by member.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Nagini said:


> i don't think 'sleepyhead' is in USA.


I'd say they are from the USA, having a pit and some of the words used are very american.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Snoringbear said:


> Amazing how Americans don't get sarcasm .


Don't think he posted anything to reach that conclusion ?


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

pogo said:


> I'd say they are from the USA, having a pit and some of the words used are very american.


strange , as sleepyhead were perfectly happy to look at the details of UK breed rescues when it was suggested they relinquish their dogue to rescue.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Nagini said:


> it's important to rubbish the ridiculous claims said by member.


He's rising you , don't be a sucker ...


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Nagini said:


> strange , as sleepyhead were perfectly happy to look at the details of UK breed rescues when it was suggested they relinquish their dogue to rescue.


I just they are trying to goad people, i'd take anything they say with a pinch of salt


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> He's rising you , don't be a sucker ...


LOL. Nobody is being a sucker. It's called a teachable moment. 

FWIW, I don't think he's yanking any chains, I think he really is that ignorant. I've met enough people in real life with the same kind of crazy ideas....

Edit, of course, there is the possibility that it's his bones that are sleepy, not his head, in which case yeah, totally got me. Still makes for a teachable moment though.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> What am I making easy?
> 
> Im operating under the assumption that sleepyhead is not the only one reading the thread. Youll notice that I tried to share some dog bite basics in my posts for the benefit of those willing to learn, research further, and expand their knowledge base.
> 
> Whats important to me is folks getting educated on dog safety, dog bite prevention, and the stupidness of BSL. If something in my posts spurs someone to research further, then the post was worthwhile.


But that ain't really what's happening though is it ....its just apost amongst billions on the internet... meanwhile you are getting played.....that's the only thing being learnt here . don't do it to yourself.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> LOL. Nobody is being a sucker. Its called a teachable moment.
> 
> FWIW, I dont think hes yanking any chains, I think he really is that ignorant. Ive met enough people in real life with the same kind of crazy ideas....
> 
> Edit, of course, there is the possibility that its his bones that are sleepy, not his head, in which case yeah, totally got me. Still makes for a teachable moment though.


To have a teachable moment you need a student

and he certainly aint any student . ..that's the obvious you are missing ....teacher is getting played ;-)


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> He's rising you , don't be a sucker ...





Tails and Trails said:


> But that ain't really what's happening though is it ....its just apost amongst billions on the internet... meanwhile you are getting played.....that's the only thing being learnt here . don't do it to yourself.


no one is being played , i think we've all seen him for the daft little troll he is , he should have been banned instantly the other day for calling members here c***s. not sure whether its still there , haven't bothered to look.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

pogo said:


> I just they are trying to goad people, i'd take anything they say with a pinch of salt


Precisely... ....


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> But that ain't really what's happening though is it ....its just apost amongst billions on the internet... meanwhile you are getting played.....that's the only thing being learnt here . don't do it to yourself.


Well whats the point in any of us posting then? Your post is just one among billions, why should I listen to your oh-so-sage advice?

Do what to myself? So what if Im getting played? It doesnt affect me in the least that I can tell. Im a grownup, I can choose what to post, when to post, what to reply to, and when to walk away. And right now I choose to post. As long as its within the TOU, Im not really understanding the problem.

I also highly doubt thats the *only* thing being learned here.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Nagini said:


> no one is being played , i think we've all seen him for the daft little troll he is , he should have been banned instantly the other day for calling members here c***s. not sure whether its still there , haven't bothered to look.


Then if you already knew or thought he was a troll WTF are you doing trying to engage him then ?????

And you reckon you aren't getting played.......

just don't rise to his comments .....simple


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> To have a teachable moment you need a student
> 
> and he certainly aint any student . ..that's the obvious you are missing ....teacher is getting played ;-)


Sleepyperson is not the only one reading this thread. Im not posting for his/her sake. Im posting for members and lurkers and random search people.
Petforums threads show up frequently in google searches.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Then if you already knew or thought he was a troll WTF are you doing trying to engage him then ?????
> 
> And you reckon you aren't getting played.......
> 
> just don't rise to his comments .....simple


no not being played , placing fact above the bullcrap being spouted serves a purpose , someone somewhere may actually learn something , which isn't a bad thing. if anyone were to believe a word said , he'd have everyone believing anything bigger than a jack russell is fed children for breakfast


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Sleepyperson is not the only one reading this thread. Im not posting for his/her sake. Im posting for members and lurkers and random search people.
> Petforums threads show up frequently in google searches.


That an argument always comes up in this context .....but it doesn't really convince
flrstly if your main motivator were just to educate in case someone else is watching you could still do all that and achieve the same aim by merely replying to his posts by stating your informing facts without the need to get into it with him

besides title of this thread and presentation of content in form of people winding each other up highly unlikely to come up in search list or interest lurkers on a mission re breed research

when I search and research and get results 9 times out of 10 topical websites feature not discussion forums and I naturally gravitate to them anyway ....Wikipedia a common one


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Nagini said:


> no not being played , placing fact above the bullcrap being spouted serves a purpose , someone somewhere may actually learn something , which isn't a bad thing. if anyone were to believe a word said , he'd have everyone believing anything bigger than a jack russell is fed children for breakfast


Well you say you already thought he was a troll before this thread 
yet you still fed the troll on this thread

so how is he not going to bed having the last laugh on a couple of you now ?
sounds like he has also done this before?


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> Well you say you already thought he was a troll before this thread
> yet you still fed the troll on this thread
> 
> so how is he not going to bed having the last laugh on a couple of you now ?
> sounds like he has also done this before?


goodness you are very argumentative!

when I search pet related things 9 times out of 10 petforums comes up - I found this place by accident through google it was top of the list and I had simply typed in for information about a cross breed - if someone wants to take the time to make a post - a factual and informative one then who is getting played? no one, perhaps someone searching the breed will come across this and be put off by silly comments and then see some other comments stating different and do more research - it's kind of the point of a forum, to pass on information, have discussion and maybe even learn a thing or two


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Well whats the point in any of us posting then? Your post is just one among billions, why should I listen to your oh-so-sage advice?
> 
> Do what to myself? So what if Im getting played? It doesnt affect me in the least that I can tell. Im a grownup, I can choose what to post, when to post, what to reply to, and when to walk away. And right now I choose to post. As long as its within the TOU, Im not really understanding the problem.
> 
> I also highly doubt thats the *only* thing being learned here.


Then if you know he is manipulating you yet are content to go along with it then i would agree that you are right, there is no problem

The point of any of us posting is clear and an entirely different issue.
We are all posting to each other in the same area we are all a part of.
You shouldnt have to listen to my advice (but we dont just post advice), but their is a good chance you may do so, and i yours, as this is why we came here.
So when im writing posts of course im only writing for the people on here (and myself), i dont tell myself i am writing for the higher good of the world's internet population. Naturally, I dont think of them
Someone, somewhere, someday, i MIGHT come up in a google. That would be a bonus . Its statistically unlikely, and i dont have that sort of ticket upon myself, but it would be good.
However, what I DO know is that people _on here_ will read, appreciate, and learn from me, if i write posts that way.
Because of that logic, I dont tell myself i have a need to 'educate' to the point whereby I knowingly offer myself up on a plate to someone whose clear intention is to rise me, regardless to what i am going to say.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

redroses2106 said:


> goodness you are very argumentative!
> 
> when I search pet related things 9 times out of 10 petforums comes up - I found this place by accident through google it was top of the list and I had simply typed in for information about a cross breed - if someone wants to take the time to make a post - a factual and informative one then who is getting played? no one, perhaps someone searching the breed will come across this and be put off by silly comments and then see some other comments stating different and do more research - it's kind of the point of a forum, to pass on information, have discussion and maybe even learn a thing or two


actually, no im not.
i hold discussions. i 'present arguments'.
not the same thing at all

And what you have written is the same as me.
If you type mastiff or buses into google, you will get wikipeida, breed clubs, forums, blogs, etc.
Then you choose which to spend your time on, which would be the ones where you can gather the information easiest
That might be a thread on a pet forum entitled "can anyone tell me about bull mastiffs". its not likely to be one called what this thread is called and outsiders arent likely then going to sift thru pages of people being trolled by someone else in the event some factual information might be in there somewhere.
im hardly saying anything controversial here, its pretty much basic human nature and common sense 

I never said anyone was getting played for posting up factual informative posts. They were being played for other reasons I explained in my posts

And i agree with you, you have said the same as me, people will get put off by silly comments and not read the posts on that thread, and then go off and find the threads with the same sort of good information easy to find without the silly comments.
So you are saying the same as me, there is no rationale as regards teaching opportunities to be served when replying to trolls.

Just dont feed the trolls, or just post information in reply to the troll but without responding to the trolling. either way troll just ends up talking to himself, he gets bored, stops posting, then all the responses that just focussed on correcting information without actually addressing the troll himself will take precedence, THEN the educational aims have been achieved, and without anyone letting themselves be someone else plaything


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

OMG, some of the posts on this thread are funnier than a kids comic. Toys and prams spring to mind. Have fun kids, I'm off to talk about dogs, with people who also talk about dogs and actually enjoy doing just that. Still the same old quarrels on pf, still the same fuels to the fires - surprised you can be bothered!


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Wow,sorry for going to bed!
Didnt relize i was in for a kicking,would have stayed up.

how quickly you turned on yourselves with no one to vent your anger ye like pack of wild dogs.
Now. you accuse me of being a troll,or is it my grammar that sets me a part but no one wants to mention it  me thinks so.

So lets have a look at what i have said,let not go in to bite inhibition crap to me a dog bite is a dog bite.Looking at photos in opening post did the dog used its inhibiton there.
Makin a brew,get back to you.


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

To meny people,like the one in opening post take on dogs that are way to powerful for them,the result is the dog gets put down.
So tell me which of my posts offend and i will explain my understanding.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Any dog is capable of inflicting a serious bite wound, yes, size can make a difference, but I think it this woman had owned chihuahuas the outcome would probably have been the same, just less stitches. 

Of course bite inhibition matters, I've got four retrievers, two of which hand hold, if they didn't have good bite inhibition I'd know sooner rather than later!


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

Thats what you have taught your dog to do,big difference between holding and attack bite.
Guess its like teaching your dog to carry the news paper home from shop,or does it get to live the life it was bred for??


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

You don't need to teach any breed of dog to bite and inflict a wound, they are all capable of it. My most solid character out of all four of my dogs is Indie, and she has done working trials training up to patrol dog level where they take the bite sleeve, not the normal sort of thing that you might expect a Labrador to do. The reason Indie is such a solid trustworthy girl is that she's confident and has no issues. The dog featured in the article has been babied, not treated like a dog imo, and probably hasn't a clue how to act *normally*. It's nothing to do with the breed, it's the stupid owner that's ruined the character of that dog, and she would probably do it to any dog regardless of breed.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

redroses2106 said:


> when I search pet related things 9 times out of 10 petforums comes up - I found this place by accident through google it was top of the list and I had simply typed in for information about a cross breed - if someone wants to take the time to make a post - a factual and informative one then who is getting played? no one, perhaps someone searching the breed will come across this and be put off by silly comments and then see some other comments stating different and do more research - it's kind of the point of a forum, to pass on information, have discussion and maybe even learn a thing or two


I too found this forum via google search. I was searching for Steve Whites rules of punishment and a PF thread popped up, I read it, found some really good posts, and joined to participate in the discussion.

Sleeping_Lion, I have a great dane who loves to hold hands too. Ive known some dobermans who do it also. Its a very sweet, connection-seeking behavior that I have never felt the need to discourage. This same dog will ever so gently remove a band-aid from one of the kids (shes a nurse dog and gets highly offended if she cant lick boo-boos clean). Yet she will also go out in the fields, chase and kill rabbits in one bite.

Anyone who has seen two dogs playing rough has seen bite-inhibition in action. 
Bite inhibition is not all nature. Its not just down to inherent temperament. Nor is impulse control. Both can be developed and improved upon in the right environment, with intelligent handling, training, and behavior modification.

The dog pictured below came to us because at 6 months he began killing chickens, then cats and who knows what else. He was also chasing horses and had already suffered injuries from that (hence the 3 canines instead of 4). He came to us and learned to control his impulsiveness better. The bite inhibition was already there, he just wasnt exercising it. He does now.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

sleepyhead said:


> Wow,sorry for going to bed!
> Didnt relize i was in for a kicking,would have stayed up.
> 
> *how quickly you turned on yourselves with no one to vent your anger* ye like pack of wild dogs.
> ...


What do you mean 'turned on yourselves'? We are not all one entity. Just as ouesi may not agree with what you have to say, other members may also not agree with one another. We are all individuals, not one big collective that turns on 'themselves' - there is no one self to turn on ut:

Hang out a bit longer and you will see plenty of people on here do not agree with each other one some (or occasionally all) cases.


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## sleepyhead (Jan 28, 2014)

I reckon the horse kicking his teeth out controled his bite inhibition than that plastic sausage in his mouth.
beautiful dog though,the look on its face,its unsure about something.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I had a standard poodle that held hands too, I found it endearing. She could also play with children and with smaller dogs - but could bite off a baby rabbits head in one go.
Sleepyhead - bite inhibition does not mean the dog cannot use its teeth, it means it knows how to control its bite appropriately.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`ve got 4 erstwhile biters. None of them has bitten me. So yes it probably is her fault... the first time. After that it`s stupidity. It`s an animal. Animals react. So manage them properly.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Alice Childress said:


> What do you mean 'turned on yourselves'? We are not all one entity. Just as ouesi may not agree with what you have to say, other members may also not agree with one another. We are all individuals, not one big collective that turns on 'themselves' - there is no one self to turn on ut:
> .


Actually, I think he might be right, I think I may have turned on my one self. 
I think it happened because I liked it when I hated cancer on facebook.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

...I can turn on a sixpence when someone mentions dinner, mind...
does that count?


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

How can anyone say that dog is not aggressive after attacking his owner not just once but 3 times? If that dog is not aggressive then there is no such thing as an aggressive dog. I have owned dogs all my life and never felt nervous round any but can honestly say if any dog of mine attacked me like this one has I wouldn't feel safe round them. Especially with it being a big dog.

I've had the odd nip off dogs I've owned and not had them PTS but I think in this case I probably would. Telling a dog off is hardly a reason to be attacked. Ok all dogs react differently I've had a dog growl and even snap but never actually attack me.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

sleepyhead said:


> Going to bed,good night,god bless and the dogs are going in the yard,lol.
> 
> Change of plan,the bordeuxe jumped on the couch and give me the look that said he aint moving,think i will leave him be.


I think you mean Bordeaux. If your scared of moving your dog to where they should be, you've got problems.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

koolchick said:


> How can anyone say that dog is not aggressive after attacking his owner not just once but 3 times? If that dog is not aggressive then there is no such thing as an aggressive dog. I have owned dogs all my life and never felt nervous round any but can honestly say if any dog of mine attacked me like this one has I wouldn't feel safe round them. Especially with it being a big dog.
> 
> I've had the odd nip off dogs I've owned and not had them PTS but I think in this case I probably would. Telling a dog off is hardly a reason to be attacked. Ok all dogs react differently I've had a dog growl and even snap but never actually attack me.


Behavior is agressive. Dogs are dogs, and all dogs are capable of agressive behavior.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Behavior is agressive. Dogs are dogs, and all dogs are capable of agressive behavior.


Yea but there is a difference in being capable of being aggressive and actually being aggressive and 3 times indicates it wasn't just a one off. The fact the owner is defending the dog shows she's not willing to try and solve why the dog is being aggressive. If it was a one off ok it may of just been having a bad day or reacted badly to something. Second time shows something needs doing as it's likely to happen again and third time proves it will keep happening until something changes. Next time it may be someone outside or even a child then it will be up to that person or a child's parents if the dog is PTS.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Haven't read all the replies (have read the article) but...



Dogless said:


> A desire for money and for getting into a national newspaper maybe .


Not just one newspaper, either. She was in the Chronical yesterday (although obviously the Chronical is a local newspaper, rather than national).


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Yet again I'm flabbergasted by the attitude, and yes, the vitriol stirred up by threads like these. The simple facts are that the dog, regardless of it's type is a large and dangerous dog, for goodness sake it's seriously attacked it's owner three times. I'm not going to argue the reasons why this has been allowed to develop but the harsh reality is that the dog is now a very real threat to anyone who comes into contact with it. I agree that the owner is very likely a prat of the first order, sadly for the dog it doesn't take away the fact that it's now an animal that is, in all fairness obviously very dangerous, I could never countenance keeping such a dog, we should be able to trust our dogs, not live in fear of them.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

koolchick said:


> Yea but there is a difference in being capable of being aggressive and actually being aggressive and 3 times indicates it wasn't just a one off. The fact the owner is defending the dog shows she's not willing to try and solve why the dog is being aggressive. If it was a one off ok it may of just been having a bad day or reacted badly to something. Second time shows something needs doing as it's likely to happen again and third time proves it will keep happening until something changes. Next time it may be someone outside or even a child then it will be up to that person or a child's parents if the dog is PTS.


Oh definitely, this dog is a mess 

But I still contend that aggression is not a personality trait. We are all aggressive, but like so many things, its a matter of degrees.

Or put another way, you cant just look at the aggressive act, you have to look at the whole picture. 
Say I as a human aggressively attack a passerby, shouting and hitting. You cant really make any judgements about *me* by that information alone. 
If I added information that the person looked exactly like someone who had attacked me before, that paints an entirely different picture than if the person just accidentally bumped in to me and I lost it.

And either way, its the behavior that is aggressive, not the being. I can be the kindest, calmest, most relaxed person in the world, and a beast in the boxing ring. In certain contexts, aggressive behavior is perfectly acceptable and we dont assume that person is an aggressive person. 
Its not much different with dogs.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> That an argument always comes up in this context .....but it doesn't really convince
> *flrstly if your main motivator were just to educate in case someone else is watching you could still do all that and achieve the same aim by merely replying to his posts by stating your informing facts without the need to get into it with him*
> 
> besides title of this thread and presentation of content in form of people winding each other up highly unlikely to come up in search list or interest lurkers on a mission re breed research
> ...


Have you tried typing in "Dog attacks owner 3 times"? Think you'll find the forum is right there on the first page.

You _do _know Wikipedia is written and edited by Joe Public, and anyone - yes, anyone - can edit anything that's written? :huh:

I'm all for finding facts rather than conjecture and people's opinions, but Wiki wouldn't be my #1 place to go for anything factual, unless, or until I've checked out various other resources.

As for educating the reading public without responding to the likes of sleepyhead, quality information has a way of standing out from the crowd and making other comments look as uninformed as they actually are. Not everyone who comes across this site decides to join. Some might just be too shy, or they might want to see the quality of the information provided before they join. They might be looking for certain "criteria" displayed in threads, such as spelling or grammar, they might read a couple of threads to give them an idea on how friendly the forum is as a whole. Or ... they might actually be as uninformed as certain members who have replied to this thread and think twice when they see their thoughts and opinions in print by someone else being challenged by those who are better informed.

It's naive at best to think that your audience consists entirely of members.

As for my opinion on the OP ... I'm not sure I can add anything worthwhile. She's certainly not being responsible, and yes, a lot of the photos used made me very uneasy. The dog's body language being chief amongst them.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> *Have you tried typing in "Dog attacks owner 3 times"? Think you'll find the forum is right there on the first page.*
> *
> Of course it would. Im not too sure what this has to do with anything I had said though ??*
> 
> ...


Yes, the dog's body language on those photos is very disconcerting


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

sleepyhead said:


> Yes,though i think my dog was bred to simply eat and ****.
> Also have pitbull and bulljack


What's a bulljack? Something to lift a comatose ox into a trailer?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Really troubling article.

I think the dog will attack again and I won't be surprised if next time this woman is fatally injured, frankly.

There is something deeply bizarre about her behaviour and her attitude. At the very least, the dog should of course be muzzled in public.

I would be surprised if anyone is happy to visit this lunatic's home if they read that article. I pray she doesn't live anywhere near me.

I feel very sorry for both dogs, something is very wrong in that home.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

This article makes people look bad if they treat their dog like a baby or part of the family. Everyone has different ideas of how to treat a dog. Also some dogs respond differently to others. One thing no one should ignore a dog clearly being aggressive like this one obviously is or at least has been and likely will be again. 

I am the last person who can call anyone too soft with their dogs. Mine gets away with most things but has never been aggressive and would never get away with it. He's pretty much allowed to do what he wants without bothering anyone who comes to the house or outside. Simple rule as long as he's safe and not being aggressive with anyone or bothering anyone he can do what he wants. 

Had him from a pup and there has been one or two times he's just growled or snapped at another dog must of been just puppy playful aggression but he was told off straight away and now never gets aggressive with anyone. Not really hard to be soft and avoid aggression. First sign of any aggression he would be told off straight away.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

koolchick said:


> This article makes people look bad if they treat their dog like a baby or part of the family. Everyone has different ideas of how to treat a dog. Also some dogs respond differently to others. One thing no one should ignore a dog clearly being aggressive like this one obviously is or at least has been and likely will be again.
> 
> I am the last person who can call anyone too soft with their dogs. Mine gets away with most things but has never been aggressive and would never get away with it. He's pretty much allowed to do what he wants without bothering anyone who comes to the house or outside. Simple rule as long as he's safe and not being aggressive with anyone or bothering anyone he can do what he wants.
> 
> Had him from a pup and there has been one or two times he's just growled or snapped at another dog must of been just puppy playful aggression but he was told off straight away and now never gets aggressive with anyone. Not really hard to be soft and avoid aggression. *First sign of any aggression he would be told off straight away.*


I would be careful punishing any warnings that he is giving that he is not happy with a situation as he may miss the warnings out next time.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Dogless said:


> *I would be careful punishing any warnings that he is giving that he is not happy with a situation as he may miss the warnings out next time.*




Absolutely agree! The situation needs to be addressed - not the dog's response to it.

For instance - I've seen countless instances where a child has been tormenting a dog, and the dog has been trying to get out of the situation (physically moving away) only for the child to follow and continue their behaviour, leading to growling and even an air snap - and the dog gets punished. When I've comments I'm told "He's got to learn who's boss/ that he's at the bottom of the pack(!)/ the kids come first" etctcetc.

Of course the kids come first! Protect them by teaching them when to leave a dog alone. - not just their own dog - any dog. Animals aren't toys.

And as for treating dogs like babies - I spoil mine. I regard them as my furry children - but at the same time I am very aware that their needs are not the same as those of human children, and that they do not learn/understand in the same way - and that they have only one way to tell us that something is getting to much for them, and frightening, hurting or distressing them.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

koolchick said:


> This article makes people look bad if they treat their dog like a baby or part of the family. Everyone has different ideas of how to treat a dog. Also some dogs respond differently to others. One thing no one should ignore a dog clearly being aggressive like this one obviously is or at least has been and likely will be again.
> 
> I am the last person who can call anyone too soft with their dogs. Mine gets away with most things but has never been aggressive and would never get away with it. He's pretty much allowed to do what he wants without bothering anyone who comes to the house or outside. Simple rule as long as he's safe and not being aggressive with anyone or bothering anyone he can do what he wants.
> 
> *Had him from a pup and there has been one or two times he's just growled or snapped at another dog must of been just puppy playful aggression but he was told off straight away and now never gets aggressive with anyone*. Not really hard to be soft and avoid aggression. *First sign of any aggression he would be told off straight away*.


What if that's exactly what this owner did? :001_unsure: I certainly wouldn't be surprised because unless something's been missed out to make the woman look like a martyr, looks like this dog has sidestepped any warnings and gone straight for the bite... Not even a warning air-snap, either.

Max growls a lot and because he does, I know the difference between a playful growl and a warning growl. I admit, I used to tell him off, but now I know better, and I was bloody lucky he simply ignored me.

OBAYL - if you're in London, you're safe. This prat lives nearer to me, unfortunately.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

koolchick said:


> This article makes people look bad if they treat their dog like a baby or part of the family. Everyone has different ideas of how to treat a dog. Also some dogs respond differently to others. One thing no one should ignore a dog clearly being aggressive like this one obviously is or at least has been and likely will be again.
> 
> I am the last person who can call anyone too soft with their dogs. Mine gets away with most things but has never been aggressive and would never get away with it. He's pretty much allowed to do what he wants without bothering anyone who comes to the house or outside. Simple rule as long as he's safe and not being aggressive with anyone or bothering anyone he can do what he wants.
> 
> Had him from a pup and there has been one or two times he's just growled or snapped at another dog must of been just puppy playful aggression but he was told off straight away and now never gets aggressive with anyone. Not really hard to be soft and avoid aggression. *First sign of any aggression he would be told off straight away*.


And that is one of the reasons why I have a dog that completely skips the growling stage of warnings.. Telling a dog off for growling just stops the growling, it does not change the reason that the dog was growling in the first place.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LinznMilly said:


> What if that's exactly what this owner did? :001_unsure: I certainly wouldn't be surprised because unless something's been missed out to make the woman look like a martyr, looks like this dog has sidestepped any warnings and gone straight for the bite... Not even a warning air-snap, either.
> 
> Max growls a lot and because he does, I know the difference between a playful growl and a warning growl. I admit, I used to tell him off, but now I know better, and I was bloody lucky he simply ignored me.
> 
> *OBAYL - if you're in London, you're safe.  This prat lives nearer to me, unfortunately. *


At least you know what she looks like 

I would think that if she steps foot in a local park, anyone who saw the article will leave quicksmart - I certainly would!

RE GROWLING

I used not to know that growling was a vital first warning. It's only because of PF that I now know this and I think it must be one of the most important things I've learned about dogs.


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

I haven't read all the replies, so sorry if this has already been said but she really needs to get help with the dog befor it attacks a child and then the decision of having the dog put down is taken away from her and a child is either scarred for life or worse.


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I would be careful punishing any warnings that he is giving that he is not happy with a situation as he may miss the warnings out next time.


I mean he once growled as a pup when I picked him up I picked him up gently and had to as he was due to go out and he couldn't get out safely on his own as he was too small to get down the steps. I just told him no firmly and he has never minded being picked up before or since then. Also once another dog came up to him not doing anything wrong just sniffed and wagged its tail and my dog snapped at it luckily the other dog ignored him and went away but I told him a firm no after that and he's fine with other dogs now even if they are too giddy he doesn't snap.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

koolchick said:


> I mean he once growled as a pup when I picked him up I picked him up gently and had to as he was due to go out and he couldn't get out safely on his own as he was too small to get down the steps. I just told him no firmly and he has never minded being picked up before or since then.* Also once another dog came up to him not doing anything wrong just sniffed and wagged its tail and my dog snapped at it luckily the other dog ignored him and went away but I told him a firm no* after that and he's fine with other dogs now even if they are too giddy he doesn't snap.


The dog wasn't doing anything wrong that *you* could see.

But clearly your dog was stressed and anxious.

Sadly you taught him not to warn when he feels that way.

My dog is a nervy boy and if another dog that is very bouncy approaches even if it's just being friendly, my boy will growl. That means I always know when he's feeling stressed and I can either step between the two dogs or recall my boy and move away.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2014)

koolchick said:


> I mean he once growled as a pup when I picked him up I picked him up gently and had to as he was due to go out and he couldn't get out safely on his own as he was too small to get down the steps. I just told him no firmly and he has never minded being picked up before or since then. Also once another dog came up to him not doing anything wrong just sniffed and wagged its tail and my dog snapped at it luckily the other dog ignored him and went away but I told him a firm no after that and he's fine with other dogs now even if they are too giddy he doesn't snap.


I still would heed the very good advice to be careful with this approach.
Snaps and growls are an early warnings system that is unwise to extinguish for many reasons.
By telling a dog off for growling or snapping, youre not dealing with the very legitimate emotions the dog is expressing. The growl may go away, but the emotion does not. Its simply suppressed. Suppression may appear to work but it has a nasty habit of resurfacing in odd ways when you least expect it.

Its just better all around to help the dog not feel the need to growl instead of telling him to not growl.

Take this example:
Dog A has a history with humans of having his signals noticed and respected. He finds himself in a situation where he is uncomfortable. Knowing that his signals will be heard he doesnt really stress about it, doesnt feel the need to growl, the humans notice, intervene, and no growl happens.
Dog B has a history of being punished for growling so doesnt do it. Same thing, he finds himself in an uncomfortable situation. This dog doesnt know that his signals will be heard, nobody notices his discomfort, he gets more and more uncomfortable, but doesnt growl because hes been told not to. The only option left to him to be heard is a snap or bite. 
Neither dog growled, but which one is the safer dog?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I still would heed the very good advice to be careful with this approach.
> Snaps and growls are an early warnings system that is unwise to extinguish for many reasons.
> By telling a dog off for growling or snapping, youre not dealing with the very legitimate emotions the dog is expressing. The growl may go away, but the emotion does not. Its simply suppressed. Suppression may appear to work but it has a nasty habit of resurfacing in odd ways when you least expect it.
> 
> ...


It will be interesting to me to see KC's response to this as Max is now Dog A and I could give her an actual scenario of what Dog A might do.


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