# Clue as to breed



## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

Hello everyone

***UPDATE***

I just want to thank everyone who has commented on the post and said how cute the kitts are ^^ thanks also for all the suggestions. Watch this space (or, more appropriately, the gallery space) for updates. By the By, the pics below of the kittens were taken when they were two days old. so you can expect plenty more!

* ********************************************************************************

our cat Tabitha gave birth to her first litter on Saturday. Although we were expecting the kittens not necessarily to look like their mum, none of them do! Yet they all look much alike, which again we were not expecting:










and mum looks like this!! :










we have no idea what breed Tabitha is, we had her from a friend of a friend whose cat had kittens ...

But basically i was wondering if anyone might have any ideas? we've had so many people comment so far, some people think Tabitha might be Bengal, and people have commented that the kittens look to have Himalayan or even seal-point colourings. But i found a pic of some adorable kittens on this forum that have similar markings and they are ragdolls!

So as you can see, i am clueless!!

Thanks for any input,

BethanMay, Ken, Tabs and babies


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## Baby Bordie (Jun 21, 2009)

Dont have a clue, but they are so damn cute!!!!!!!


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## Angelic1 (Jun 19, 2009)

Me niether but they are adorable!


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

i would rule out bengal. whatever she is she is stunning and her babies are really adoreable keep us updated with pics please


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## _soph_ (Aug 3, 2009)

I absolutely love these kittens!! They are so unusual and what a shock because they are absolutely nothing like their mum!!!

"Merlins mum" should be on later and she has extensive knowledge on colours and how they can be produced.

Im sure somebody will be here shortly with different theories!!

You must be so proud:001_wub::001_wub:


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2009)

oh my goodness!

They are adorable!

Sorry i cant help fully

Mum is a spotted tabby - which could indicate bengal, but the coat pattern does occur in moggies too

Dad - well he's gotta be a looker!

can i have the one with the darker points to the face PPPUURRRRLLLEEEAAASSSEEE?


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Tabitha looks like a lovely moggie to me, but I'm amazed she's produced those colours! I'd love to see what the daddy looks like! Those kittens are adorable :001_wub: xx


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Mum is a moggy - not bengal but very pretty - dad is probably a colour point something or something cross to have produced such lovely kitens - I would guess at a darker point (black/seal) for the kitts to already be showing colour. They may change as they grow. Lots of different breeds have colour points but the true colour points are born pure white and the colour slowly develops over the first few weeks. The kits aren't a breed as neither mum and dad (as far as we know) as registered pedigrees with ancestors known for generations - and cross breeds are still moggies. I bet these kits get snapped up quick they are that lovely.


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm with Dozymoo on this one - lovely mum, lovely babies, wonder what Daddy looks like? Sending purry kisses.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

My little Moggie looks alot like yours but she is Grey in colour. I am lovin those kittties just gorgeous


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## kelseye (Aug 16, 2009)

they are so beautfull the colour of them is somethink else


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## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

lol thankyou! ^^


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

They are little stunners! I also think that daddy cat was a colourpoint. My babies are all born white with their colours coming through during week 2 (Ragdoll). I'd love to see how they develop! we need more pics!


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## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

lol pics will be up i promise!!


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

I dont think shes a bengal at all her coat is too long by the looks of it.

But she is pretty as are the kittens


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Oooh aren't they unusual! It'll be fun seeing these develop and what they do eventually turn into.

If they were born on Saturday that's only a few days - the Siamese I bred were still white at that age with no sign of the points coming in. That's not to rule out the possibility that other colourpoint breeds might get theirs earlier.

Something does ring a bell though... the kittens are kind of silvery-looking but you can see vague tabby marks on the head, and if I'm not mistaken, the coat looks dark at the base? I've heard of something like this before and did have a cross-bred litter years ago with something like it. For some unknown reason the kits (all tabby) had a very unusual silver wash over their coats when born. It was nothing I'd ever heard of or encountered before but have heard of again since.

When the kittens got older, the silver disappeared and they became normal "brown" i.e. black/grey/sandy tabbies.

Some could be colourpoint anyway - no reason why not, if both parents carried the gene. It would be unusual to have a whole litter colourpointed where Mum isn't one herself, but stranger things have happened! It's the old "Sweeties in the Bag" random effect on genes... where you can put 5 red, 5 yellow, 5 green sweets in a bag and randomly pick 5 - you can sometimes end up picking all red!

Please do keep us updated, will be very interesting to see what these little lovelies turn out to be


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## kitties (Aug 1, 2009)

oh they are stunning!!! if she had been my cat i would never have expected kittens her colour. ive got a tortie tabby due next week and im just expecting tabbys! they are gorgeous. well done to you and mum.


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## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

kitties said:


> oh they are stunning!!! if she had been my cat i would never have expected kittens her colour. ive got a tortie tabby due next week and im just expecting tabbys! they are gorgeous. well done to you and mum.


well they could turn out to be any colour it seems! good luck - keep us up to date with how she is! x


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

They do look unusual but striking - keep posting the photos so we can see how they turn out.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Gosh they are unusual! They look silver to me - and very highly silvered too. The combination of that with the darker points is fascinating and I am trying to work out how you would possibly get that, I could understand one or two if both parents carry colourpoint, but you seem to have the whole litter with darker points. I am trying to work out what breed you might have that would be both silver and colourpointed because that I think is what Dad must be. Could I post the picture elsewhere and see if anyone has any ideas?

Liz


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

There are some people breeding experimental silver tabby birman and persians - could it be that?


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## bimbleweb (Apr 15, 2009)

I have no idea of the breed but they are beautiful!


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## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Could I post the picture elsewhere and see if anyone has any ideas?
> 
> Liz


yes certainly!! thankyou!!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

spid said:


> There are some people breeding experimental silver tabby birman and persians - could it be that?


With the birman colourpoints still? I guess so. I'm going to post the picture elsewhere, this really is one for the books!

Now, if the original poster could kidnap that boy, she might get a good thing going 

Liz


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> With the birman colourpoints still? I guess so. I'm going to post the picture elsewhere, this really is one for the books!
> 
> Now, if the original poster could kidnap that boy, she might get a good thing going
> 
> Liz


ha ha yeah she might. but if she did kidnap the boy i might be tempted to kidnap some kitties when they are older he he


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

They are absolutely stunning!

Don't worry i was as confused as you when my moggie tabby girl gave birth to 3 blue eyed, seal point kittens! 1 in her first and 2 in her second.

I have attached some pics. The moggie world is a strange but amazing one!!!

xx


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh and i really really want one of yours.........................


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Apparently there is something called "fever coat" - where a solid colour kitten develops a lot of white hairs after being ill. It changes back when the coat changes. It seems rather young for that so I hope it isn't!

Liz


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## Alansw8 (May 25, 2008)

Can you take some more pics of the mum as she isnt too disimilar to my Belle who is a silver spotted but she has some brown in her coat


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lizward said:


> Apparently there is something called "fever coat" - where a solid colour kitten develops a lot of white hairs after being ill. It changes back when the coat changes. It seems rather young for that so I hope it isn't!Liz


Hi Liz, I said in my previous post there have been occasions when tabby kittens are born washed-silver like this. I remember a case reported on an american forum about 10 years ago - it caught my eye as I once had a moggy litter born the same. Fever coat is different but if i recall rightly, possible explanations for the silver-wash did include temperature variation, possibly external.

Will be following with interest!!


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

awww what beautiful babies


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2009)

Quick question for you geneticists?

Is silver a dominant colour? is it dominant over brown tabby?

If so - i am assuming the dad is a silver or silver shaded of some description?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Quick question for you geneticists?
> Is silver a dominant colour? is it dominant over brown tabby?


Yes. A Silver who has two silver genes [homozygous] could produce a whole litter of silvers no matter what he bred with. A Silver with only one, would give you 50/50 silver and non-silver.


> If so - i am assuming the dad is a silver or silver shaded of some description?


 Could be....but... You will need to see the kittens when they are older as many colours take time to develop.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2009)

ok just adding here, as this has me intrigued.... I love genetics but i am a novice....

According to a site i have found which goes into the genetics of the silver and silver shaded american shorthairs (why are all these sites american?)

Mating a brown tabby to a silver shaded would give you this potential mix of kitten colours (providing they hold no other colour genes) - "shaded" tabby, "shaded" silver, "black smoke"

This is a f1 generation mating rather than further line matings. It looks to me like your babies are probably silver shadeds or silvers of some form - as generally silver and shading is a dominant colour.

*Someone i am sure will come and fill in the blanks and correct my mistakes though.*

The pointing could be to do with tabby markings, which on a shaded sometimes are much more prominant on the faces.

The bi-colours could indicate the presence of white in the genepool too - mum has white socks so thats probably where the white comes into play.

The kittens are tabby, but - the striping is inhibited by the shaded gene, and will likely only appear on the legs, tail and face in any strength.

They dont look "pointed" to me, its much to early for the kittens to be pointing up yet - every colourpointed kitten i have heard of has been born white, and the points develope later.


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## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> They are absolutely stunning!
> 
> Don't worry i was as confused as you when my moggie tabby girl gave birth to 3 blue eyed, seal point kittens! 1 in her first and 2 in her second.
> 
> ...


omg how chuffed to bits does mum look!!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

lizward said:


> With the birman colourpoints still? I guess so. I'm going to post the picture elsewhere, this really is one for the books!
> 
> Now, if the original poster could kidnap that boy, she might get a good thing going
> 
> Liz


Yep still with the colour points - they tend to lose eye colour though - gets very pale


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## JoWDC (Jan 11, 2009)

Your kittens are stunning. Congrats to you & Mum!!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> ok just adding here, as this has me intrigued.... I love genetics but i am a novice....
> 
> According to a site i have found which goes into the genetics of the silver and silver shaded american shorthairs (why are all these sites american?)
> 
> ...


You are very probably right BBM - i struggle with silvers/ smokes and shadeds. I jumped to the conclusion of pointed but the colour is really far too strong. SO silvers it probably is.

I would rep you but it won't let me - i have to spread it around again! LOL!


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## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

Eek it seems Tabitha and her kitts have really started something! 

Thankyou so much everyone who's made a suggestion, and all the compliments! The whole silver-wash/silver-shading theory seems to make a lot of sense; some of the kittens have light and dark grey stripey tails, dark grey legs and ears, and dark grey patches on their faces - notably like clown paint above and below their eyes. I've put albums on my profile of mum and one of the kitts and on saturday i shall take photos of them a week old and post them in the gallery.

I've really enjoyed watching the puzzle spread though! it's so brilliant to be part of such a friendly and knowledgable community! so again, thankyou everyone!

x


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

Silver and silver shaded cats are genetically tabbys, the silver is masking the tabby pattern. What colour are the paw pads? In silvers they are either black or dark brown.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2009)

Ive been doing some more research on fever coats - its also very plausible that these kittens have fever coats - their true colours wont come through until they shed their kitten fluff.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes I'm afraid that is the likely scenario. It's a pity!

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

They look like mini badgers 

I have heard of a black coat growing back white after trauma, but have never heard of it as a result of illness. Thinking about it, it does make sense. Siamese points turn brindled after illness especially on seals, so its probably the same sort of thing.


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## fairy74 (Aug 20, 2009)

When i got my boy cat he was pure cream,i have posted a picture of him now.
no idea what breed he has come from,the female next to him is his daughter whose spotted tabby markings seem to be changing to brown colour.
I just expected him to produce cream kittens but all were different patterned tabbys.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

We need updates!  Pretty please? What colour are the little ones now?


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## Catzlover (Jan 2, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> We need updates!  Pretty please? What colour are the little ones now?


Yes, pictures please.


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## myrkari (May 2, 2009)

fairy74 said:


> When i got my boy cat he was pure cream,i have posted a picture of him now.
> no idea what breed he has come from,the female next to him is his daughter whose spotted tabby markings seem to be changing to brown colour.
> I just expected him to produce cream kittens but all were different patterned tabbys.


By the looks of it, your boy is actually a tabby colourpoint with white. He has blue eyes, his body is paler than his legs and face and butt, his tabby pattern is weaker on his body... that would explain why he was cream when you got him as colourpoints darken with age. He wouldn't have colourpoint kittens unless the mum was also colourpoint or carried the gene, though. He's a real cutie though!

Edited to add: Do you know who his parents are? The way his white is restricted to his feet, it might be that he has birman somewhere in his ancestry.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> The way his white is restricted to his feet, it might be that he has birman somewhere in his ancestry.


Perhaps, but the white feet and the white bib is a very moggie trait too


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## myrkari (May 2, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Perhaps, but the white feet and the white bib is a very moggie trait too


Indeed, but colourpoint isn't. Birmans were the first colourpoint-with-white-feet pedigree that sprang to mind that wasn't likely to distort a standard moggy body and head type too much (the way a siamese or himalayan might).

Of course it could just be two moggies that both carry the cs gene from random matings way back produced him.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

My point is that white spotting is a dominant trait so may have been introduced by any moggie in the mix not necessarily a colour-point and white cat.

The colour pointing may in fact come from any non-bicolour, colour-point cat including the Himalayan, Siamese, Snow Bengal etc. or even just moggie too in the mix.


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## fairy74 (Aug 20, 2009)

myrkari said:


> By the looks of it, your boy is actually a tabby colourpoint with white. He has blue eyes, his body is paler than his legs and face and butt, his tabby pattern is weaker on his body... that would explain why he was cream when you got him as colourpoints darken with age. He wouldn't have colourpoint kittens unless the mum was also colourpoint or carried the gene, though. He's a real cutie though!
> 
> Edited to add: Do you know who his parents are? The way his white is restricted to his feet, it might be that he has birman somewhere in his ancestry.


No idea about the parents.
The daughter i have of his is more a spotty tabby and the son he produced is very dark tabby all over with no white.(reminds me kind of like a bengal markings)


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## myrkari (May 2, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> My point is that white spotting is a dominant trait so may have been introduced by any moggie in the mix not necessarily a colour-point and white cat.
> 
> The colour pointing may in fact come from any non-bicolour, colour-point cat including the Himalayan, Siamese, Snow Bengal etc. or even just moggie too in the mix.


I wasn't disagreeing with you. I do understand the genetics...seeing as I breed colourpoint and white cats!


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