# Pet Corrector = god send



## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

I love this new can of noise I bought today.

Worked instantly, and he really takes notice of it as if 'this is something I shouldn't be doing' just got it mainly to stop him jumping up on everyone so much, its getting ridiculous and he's climbing all over the desk and computer and no matter what we've tried he just repeats over and over.

So Im happy today and Wesley has learnt 'Paw' in about 10 minutes, he's so smart  now he's chasing around a munchy chicken stick, silly puppy playing with his food


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Although it's working, be careful about how much you apply it, 1) because of detrimental effects it can cause by associating bad things with the presence of certain things, e.g. visitors, and 2) over-using it will reduce its value, and cease to be a punishment. 

I personally would never use one.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I personally would never use one.


I agree I'm afraid  Most of the time there's another way.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

There are a lot of people onn the forum that are against the pet corrector OP!
Personally, providing that they are used correctly and at the precise moment against the 'habit' I thinlk they are great! And have so as much many times! That said I don't use one now - just be careful as others have said not to overuse.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2011)

I can see how they could be effective, but I think you need to be SO careful and have really good timing with it. I guess I just wouldn't trust myself with it not to actually do more harm than good. But if it's used well then I don't have a problem with it.


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

I've used it twice, using a command before hand and reward desired behaviour afterwards. 

I know its prob controversial but I do intend to use it correctly and not to terrify my pup.

Im also only using it for one 'bad' behaviour at a time as was advised on the instructions, otherwise I guess he'll get very confused. 

Its a last resort as other methods are falling on deaf stubborn beagle ears. 
Its a temporary method and not something I would solely rely on. Im hoping he'll respond better to the commands after using it, and once he does, the the PC can go in the bin


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I hope it works out. But as always, let us know your problems and I'm sure we could help out!

I think using a pet corrector on a dog is synonymous with using one a kid. Imagine it came out that people were using these on kids for simple problems, e.g. crying and stealing objects through inquisitiveness? I think it could jeopardise socialisation and your relationship with him.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

We used one on Dex in the early days, but only for stopping him jumping up to face height, grabbing your arms, and generally throwing his weight around- it worked in that it stopped him being harmful to us and himself.

Would I use one on a pup, jumping up to greet a visitor- hell no, surely all you are teaching the dog is that visitors= bad noises happening


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I love this new can of noise I bought today.
> 
> Worked instantly, and he really takes notice of it as if 'this is something I shouldn't be doing' just got it mainly to stop him jumping up on everyone so much, its getting ridiculous and he's climbing all over the desk and computer and no matter what we've tried he just repeats over and over.
> So Im happy today and Wesley has learnt 'Paw' in about 10 minutes, he's so smartnow he's chasing around a munchy chicken stick, silly puppy playing with his food


Great, glad its worked & makes your life & the relationship improve, I'm glad to hear it, also your post is usefull those who might be interested in one but never got round to getting one, the wider the repertoir the greater the chances.



> over-using it will reduce its value


Thats true and also true of most things, he'd just get to used to it and ignore as just another normal noise.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

I used it, twice and twice only, no need to use again since it did the job - timing was perfect but the behaviour (jumping up) hadn't been around long enough to be embedded in the first place, wanted to prevent it developing as a habit.

I wouldn't use it for 'correction' of multiple behaviours but as a nasty distraction/aversion of a current intention of the targeted behaviour.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> I used it, twice and twice only, no need to use again since it did the job - timing was perfect but the behaviour (jumping up) hadn't been around long enough to be embedded in the first place, wanted to prevent it developing as a habit.
> 
> I wouldn't use it for 'correction' of multiple behaviours but as a nasty distraction/aversion of a current intention of the targeted behaviour.


My thoughs exactly!Right time, it has its place!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I kind of found myself wondering how he is getting on the desk? does he have wings?


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> I kind of found myself wondering how he is getting on the desk? does he have wings?


The desk is next to our sofa, and he climbs onto the arm and onto the desk and then takes anything he can get, he was chewing on a lighter the other day, he's like an acrobat.

We've tried 'no' and putting him on the floor and the behaviour just repeats and so on and so on, we've been going round in circles, and I dont want him bursting a lighter in his face or eating stuff he could choke on.

We are looking into moving the desk but its a big job.

We dont use it when visitors are here, I dont want him to get a negative response to having visitors but I was hoping if I can stop him jumping up on furniture then possibly it will help him to stop jumping on visitors.

Its our fault for giving him free reign of the couch, but he's such a lap dog.

It doesnt seem to scare him, just distract him enough to stop what he's doing.

Its really working, he's responding much quicker to verbal commands and thats after only a couple of squirts.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> is synonymous with using one a kid. Imagine it came out that people were using these on kids for simple problems, e.g. crying and stealing objects through inquisitiveness?


What a great idea, hey! you're the man!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> What a great idea, hey! you're the man!


Finally...I was thinking you'd never realise.


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Finally...I was thinking you'd never realise.


Whats all this about? Im lost?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Claire Bear said:


> The desk is next to our sofa, and he climbs onto the arm and [then] onto the desk,
> &... takes anything he can get, he [chewed] on a lighter the other day, he's like an acrobat.


put a thin ply-board between the SOFA-arm & the DESK-top: 
a perfect application for a sheet of MDF, he cannot bend himself around it.

if U are not sitting at the desk, put the desk-chair ON the desk, so that he can't jump onto the desktop. 
lay it down so that it takes up maximum real-estate. 


Claire Bear said:


> It's our fault for giving him *free reign* of the couch...


oh, dear.  _free REIN_ refers to the reins of a bridle - it has nothing whatever to do with kings 
or royalty of any kind, it has to do with allowing a subordinate to choose for themselves - empowering someone 
who is usually under someone else's control - the rider of the horse gives their mount FREE REIN, i-e, their head, 
when the horse knows better how to save them both than the rider does: at night horses see better, in floods 
a horse can find her/his own footing better than we can direct them, etc.

in this instance, the dog does not know better than their usual supervisor, the humans - so *free rein* doesn't apply. 


Claire Bear said:


> It doesnt seem to scare him, just distract him enough to stop what he's doing.


hmmmm - isn't this the same dog that U were considering DAP pheromone for?... 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - DAP Pheromone products

If he's such a confident chap, why would he need DAP?

if he's NOT confident, why would U use an aversive to punish & control his behavior?

IMO this is a management problem - a human-issue to fix; not a dog-training issue, where the dog is to blame. 
:yesnod: Blocking his access to the desk is not insurmountable, just awkward.


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> put a thin ply-board between the SOFA-arm & the DESK-top:
> a perfect application for a sheet of MDF, he cannot bend himself around it.
> 
> if U are not sitting at the desk, put the desk-chair ON the desk, so that he can't jump onto the desktop.
> ...


..........


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Rottiefan
> 
> _Finally... I was thinking you'd never realise._





Claire Bear said:


> What's all this about? I'm lost[.]


it's an aside between 2 people, a side-conversation & not part of the main thread.

Sleepy-Brains has consistently ignored or argued-with good advice or suggestions from RottieFan in the past; 
perhaps S-B had an epiphany, & will now read other's posts with a more open mind - but realistically, i doubt this.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Claire Bear said:


> Whats all this about? Im lost?


Sorry, just a forum-tussle. Sleepy trolling as usual.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Claire Bear said:


> ...thanks for pointing out my [grammatical] error...


it's not an error of grammar - it's an error of usage. :001_smile:

many idioms descend from past applications - TINKER'S DAM, a blob of damp clay or earth to prevent the solder 
running off as the tinker mended the pot; made with dirt found on the spot, used once, easily replaced = worthless.

ragman's nag - 
a cheap horse, usually aged or if not, crippled, lame or blind, etc; working hauling a cart for a person who was 
at the bottom of the economic heap: poor, earning little, providing poor fare for their horse, so the nag was normally 
skinny & always hungry. A ragman's nag would sometimes eat clothing off a washline, merely to have fodder. 
so it describes an elderly, scrawny beast working her / his final job, expected to die in the traces or nearly so. 
when this one dies, the ragman will buy another, very similar horse; only the color might change.

i don't need 'validation' - i'm only sharing something that i find interesting, the history of a phrase. 
U can acknowledge it or ignore it; just please, next time U use 'free rein', use it properly? :thumbsup: Thanks!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

If it were me, If i was unable move the desk or the couch. I'd stop putting interesting mouth sized objects on there and offer him something more interesting and fun to do. Puppies will always amuse themselves if you don't give them something to do.


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## Mollyspringer (Aug 16, 2011)

Claire Bear, I can empathise with you. My Springer, Molly is now 7months old and we feel that we are just getting our house back to normal. It was like having a toddler, everything had to be moved up out of her reach, she has plenty of toys but always prefers what she cannot have!! She also thinks she is a lap dog despite being, and I quote- 'the biggest Springer pup I've ever seen'-spoken by my vet!! We love her though and wouldn't be without her, hang in there-it does get better xx


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Claire Bear said:


> We dont use it when visitors are here, I dont want him to get a negative response to having visitors but I was hoping if I can stop him jumping up on furniture then possibly it will help him to stop jumping on visitors.
> .


But in your OP you say "just got it mainly to stop him jumping up on everyone so much" so you did get it to stop him jumping up at visitors????


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Leashedforlife - I'm not here for freakin' english lessons. So do stop, its incredibly annoying.

Lexiedhb - Yeah I wanted to stop the jumping up and was hoping it would lessen the occurrances of him jumping up on visitors. 

And its working great


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> If it were me, If i was unable move the desk or the couch. I'd stop putting interesting mouth sized objects on there and offer him something more interesting and fun to do. Puppies will always amuse themselves if you don't give them something to do.


We can move the desk but its a two person job and me and the OH dont see each other at the moment as we're on opposite shift patterns. And its not just the mouthsized things, he drinks my coffee or any drink I have, licks the keyboard, and has some fascination with getting to the windowsil on the otherside.

His beagle nose has to be in everything thats not his. 
He ate my bra this morning!

Hehe, its already better though, he's responding to my verbal commands today which is fab.


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

Our original trainer used it to teach dogs not to jump up, which was the main reason why we decided to look elsewhere - I didn't like the method. The dog she demonstrated it on looked terrified when she blasted it, and even though he shook it off and seemed ok again after a treat, I didn't want my dog to be afraid of jumping up, I just wanted her to realise it isn't something we want her to do! 

That being said, the trainer did say that pretty much all puppy owners on the courses would go "oh god no, how dare you do that to my sweet little puppy!!" whilst the adult dog owners didn't tend to care!

I can see how, in the right hands, they can work wonders, but I personally wouldn't use one on Izzy. Maybe if I get a more headstrong breed one day something like that might come in handy, but not for Izzy


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Tarnus said:


> Our original trainer used it to teach dogs not to jump up, which was the main reason why we decided to look elsewhere - I didn't like the method. The dog she demonstrated it on looked terrified when she blasted it, and even though he shook it off and seemed ok again after a treat, I didn't want my dog to be afraid of jumping up, I just wanted her to realise it isn't something we want her to do!
> 
> That being said, the trainer did say that pretty much all puppy owners on the courses would go "oh god no, how dare you do that to my sweet little puppy!!" whilst the adult dog owners didn't tend to care!
> 
> I can see how, in the right hands, they can work wonders, but I personally wouldn't use one on Izzy. Maybe if I get a more headstrong breed one day something like that might come in handy, but not for Izzy


I know they're very controversial, but its after exausting all other options, he's such a stubborn little thing that he'll do it over and over and over hoping we'll give up and let him get away with it.

Its for his safety aswell, he jumps up on people who are jogging/walking he's been stepped on, kicked and knocked in the head so many times! And still continues to do it!

Beagles from what ive read are prob one of the most stubborn breeds, which suits me because im very stubborn myself.

Well having only bought it yesterday, i've used it maybe 4 times and not at all today so far  even when there was yummy smelling food on the desk he didnt budge, just sniffed the air with a longing look on his face.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I don't believe in positive only training methods (shock horror!!), I think it's perfectly fine to use corrections as long as they're done right and dont hurt the dog. I certainly wouldn't raise a child with positive reinforcement only, and that wasn't the way I was raised either and it's done me no harm. It's also not the way dogs relate to each other - you just have to stand in a dog park for 5 minutes to see that they do tell each other off!

All I would say is do as much research as you can to make sure you are using it in the best way possible 

As a side note, LeashedforLife, can I suggest that if you find it your place to give English lessons on this forum, that you make sure your own posts are grammatically correct? For example, capital letters in the right places, and typing 'you' rather than 'U' which is considered text speak?! I think your posts come across as very patronising sometimes, and Im not convinced that its unintentional.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Claire Bear said:


> Leashedforlife - I'm not here for freakin' english lessons. So do stop, its incredibly annoying.
> 
> Lexiedhb - Yeah I wanted to stop the jumping up and was hoping it would lessen the occurrances of him jumping up on visitors.
> 
> And its working great


And thats what I got it for too! and it worked great for me also! that said I have not used it for a long long time! There are SOME people that she jumps up!! BUT! I blame them for encouraging her now!
IF she jumps up me - which she does! I turn my back now and will no acknowledge her until she settles down


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Claire Bear said:


> I know they're very controversial, but its after exausting all other options, he's such a stubborn little thing that he'll do it over and over and over hoping we'll give up and let him get away with it.


Have you tried putting the problem behaviour on cue? Given him an alternative thing to jump up on? My personal opinion is that people do not exhaust many options, they try a few for a while then give up, blaming the breed as 'stubborn' rather than their own approach to training. Sorry, I feel an objective viewpoint is needed!



> Its for his safety aswell, he jumps up on people who are jogging/walking he's been stepped on, kicked and knocked in the head so many times! And still continues to do it!


My worry is that by fixing this problem, you inadvertently create new problems, e.g. a fear of loud noises, anxiety around visitors, anxiety about coming close to you when you are on the computer/near the desk. Who knows what he is associating the PC with. Even when one is used correctly, it can be incredibly hard to control for adverse reactions.



> Beagles from what ive read are prob one of the most stubborn breeds, which suits me because im very stubborn myself.


Since when can dogs be stubborn? Seriously though, attributing human emotions to our dogs or any animal is a slippery business, and usually result in the wrong training methods being used. That's my take on it anyway. If people actually knew what is known about dog cognition, and what isn't known, then many training methods would be deemed too harsh as the problem is rarely to do with the dog, but how it is learning from its owner.

Sorry, I'm sure this sounds harsh, but it isn't intended to insult, it's intended to offer another view point. Regardless of whether you continue to use the PC or not- that's your choice- it's good to have a full understanding about the reason the behaviour is occuring (is he purposively not listening to prior training or has he just not been taught something yet?) and how these can affect dogs. However, we don't always have a good understanding, which is the problem.


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Angels_Sin said:


> Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I don't believe in positive only training methods (shock horror!!), I think it's perfectly fine to use corrections as long as they're done right and dont hurt the dog. I certainly wouldn't raise a child with positive reinforcement only, and that wasn't the way I was raised either and it's done me no harm. It's also not the way dogs relate to each other - you just have to stand in a dog park for 5 minutes to see that they do tell each other off!
> 
> All I would say is do as much research as you can to make sure you are using it in the best way possible
> 
> As a side note, LeashedforLife, can I suggest that if you find it your place to give English lessons on this forum, that you make sure your own posts are grammatically correct? For example, capital letters in the right places, and typing 'you' rather than 'U' which is considered text speak?! I think your posts come across as very patronising sometimes, and Im not convinced that its unintentional.


Thats also how I was raised and I didnt turn out so bad either 

Thank you for your response, its made me feel a lot better, I was starting to regret I'd mentioned it at all!


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> My worry is that by fixing this problem, you inadvertently create new problems, e.g. a fear of loud noises, anxiety around visitors, anxiety about coming close to you when you are on the computer/near the desk. Who knows what he is associating the PC with. Even when one is used correctly, it can be incredibly hard to control for adverse reactions.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Claire Bear said:


> Thats also how I was raised and I didnt turn out so bad either
> 
> Thank you for your response, its made me feel a lot better, I was starting to regret I'd mentioned it at all!


No worries  Obviously we're different from dogs (before anyone points that out!), but I really think some bad behaviours have to be addressed - it doesn't hurt anyone! I wish the owner of the lab always trying to hump my dog in the park would learn to tell it "no" because if he doesn't, my dog will


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Have you tried putting the problem behaviour on cue? Given him an alternative thing to jump up on? My personal opinion is that people do not exhaust many options, they try a few for a while then give up, blaming the breed as 'stubborn' rather than their own approach to training. Sorry, I feel an objective viewpoint is needed!
> 
> My worry is that by fixing this problem, you inadvertently create new problems, e.g. a fear of loud noises, anxiety around visitors, anxiety about coming close to you when you are on the computer/near the desk. Who knows what he is associating the PC with. Even when one is used correctly, it can be incredibly hard to control for adverse reactions.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your viewpoint 

The stubborn Beagle point isn't my opinion, Its something Ive learnt from much research on the breed before I got him, from books and the internet (although I understand that internet is never the most reliable tool) however Ive read many times that beagles are 'stubborn', and due to their tracking instincts they do often ignore commands and just fixate on their nose and what they are doing. I understand this is a character of his breed and that it will take a long time for him to be as well trained maybe as some other breeds.

As for giving up, I admit I prob have in some respects, but its awfully soul destroying to be firm him and repeating the task over and over and to be making zero progress, and I didnt want to be disciplining him all the time, because it makes me feel bad and 99% of the time that was what we were doing.

As I said he's responding quicker to verbal cues now, and he's quite happy, although not totally happy at the moment as he's just had his first bath and he was traumatised! Haha


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Claire Bear said:


> I love this new can of noise I bought today.
> 
> Worked instantly, and he really takes notice of it as if 'this is something I shouldn't be doing' just got it mainly to stop him jumping up on everyone so much, its getting ridiculous and he's climbing all over the desk and computer and no matter what we've tried he just repeats over and over.
> 
> So Im happy today and Wesley has learnt 'Paw' in about 10 minutes, he's so smart  now he's chasing around a munchy chicken stick, silly puppy playing with his food


Personnel i wouldnt use one due to what happened to my friend at her local club she had put her bitch GSD in to a down stay when one of the so called trainers used one of theses behind Jazz and now refuses to do a stay we are working on this and hope one day it will happen so if misused they dont neccesarrily work


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Angels_Sin said:


> I think your posts come across as very patronising sometimes, and Im not convinced that its unintentional.


that's fine; feel free to put me on 'ignore', ma'am / sir. :001_smile:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Claire Bear said:


> I appreciate your viewpoint
> 
> The stubborn Beagle point isn't my opinion, Its something Ive learnt from much research on the breed before I got him, from books and the internet (although I understand that internet is never the most reliable tool) however Ive read many times that beagles are 'stubborn', and due to their tracking instincts they do often ignore commands and just fixate on their nose and what they are doing. I understand this is a character of his breed and that it will take a long time for him to be as well trained maybe as some other breeds.


I would think of it in terms of motivation. Beagles, due to their heightened sense of smell and interest in smells, may be more difficult to train in certain environments as you are always going to be competing against that heightened sense of smell. Now, to me, thinking of it this way helps, as it implies that we need to be more consistent and accurate with our training, rather than resort to harsher methods, if you see what I mean?



> As for giving up, I admit I prob have in some respects, but its awfully soul destroying to be firm him and repeating the task over and over and to be making zero progress, and I didnt want to be disciplining him all the time, because it makes me feel bad and 99% of the time that was what we were doing.


Perhaps the problem is you are being too firm/disciplining with him, so the training is largely ineffective and confusing for him? I think this happens a lot. Have you tried clicker training? Perhaps training a 'Place' or 'Go To Mat' cue, and leaving the mat next to the desk, so that he associates going to the desk with lying on the mat instead, and receiving rewards and training games? There's many ways to approach this problem that will do no harm, I believe, and will be super-fun and stimulating for both of you.



> As I said he's responding quicker to verbal cues now, and he's quite happy, although not totally happy at the moment as he's just had his first bath and he was traumatised! Haha


He should learn quickly through using an aversive- the more reinforcing or the more punishing something is, I think an association is made quicker. Make sure to reward heavily, and keep punishment short and largely unimposing.


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I would think of it in terms of motivation. Beagles, due to their heightened sense of smell and interest in smells, may be more difficult to train in certain environments as you are always going to be competing against that heightened sense of smell. Now, to me, thinking of it this way helps, as it implies that we need to be more consistent and accurate with our training, rather than resort to harsher methods, if you see what I mean?
> 
> Perhaps the problem is you are being too firm/disciplining with him, so the training is largely ineffective and confusing for him? I think this happens a lot. Have you tried clicker training? Perhaps training a 'Place' or 'Go To Mat' cue, and leaving the mat next to the desk, so that he associates going to the desk with lying on the mat instead, and receiving rewards and training games? There's many ways to approach this problem that will do no harm, I believe, and will be super-fun and stimulating for both of you.
> 
> He should learn quickly through using an aversive- the more reinforcing or the more punishing something is, I think an association is made quicker. Make sure to reward heavily, and keep punishment short and largely unimposing.


He'll most likely chew the mat and throw it around. Ive lost my patience today after he pee'd on my lap, a full bladder of pee. now Im just shouting at him and he's ignoring me and my throat hurts and he's eating all my stuff.

Im one fed up Beagle slave now.
Ill start a fresh tommorow.

Thank you for your advice


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Claire Bear said:


> He'll most likely chew the mat and throw it around. Ive lost my patience today after he pee'd on my lap, a full bladder of pee. now Im just shouting at him and he's ignoring me and my throat hurts and he's eating all my stuff.
> 
> Im one fed up Beagle slave now.
> Ill start a fresh tommorow.
> ...


Have a good nights sleep. Any advice you want, don't hesitate to ask!


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Have a good nights sleep. Any advice you want, don't hesitate to ask!


I definitely need the sleep, my eyes are so black i look like ive been punched haha.

Nothing good is accomplished whilst Im tired.

Many Thanks x


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

We got warned about Pet correctors the other day at training...a person from another class (same training school) started to use one on her dog to stop the jumping up ( this advice was not given from the trainer)...it worked to a point..but the next time the dog came to class..whenever any body approached him he would growl at them warning them away


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Not sure if it will help, but I took Kilo to work with me from 14 weeks of age and it was very important that he did not jump up on the desk / remove any items from the desk.

I put a bed under the desk. Every time he went onto the bed, I praised lavishly and treated. Every time he investigated the desk I removed him without a word (left a lead on him). He very quickly learnt that being on the bed meant attention and food. Once he started to go on there as soon as we entered the office I added the word 'bed'. If he was very persistent, I tethered him to the leg of the desk by his lead so that he could not jump up at the desk and had to go onto his bed....he only needed tethering about three times in total to 'get' it. Once he fully understood, a person entering the room or me leaving the room became a cue for him going and lying on his bed and I rarely had to say the word.

I used to leave him for a few hours when I went on PT or to meetings and he never touched any of the items on my desk or damaged any other objects in the office. I used to leave him with a stagbar, nylabone, Kong etc.

I notice that you think he would rag the bed around; Kilo tried initially but I just used to sit at my desk with my boots firmly on each end of the bed and let him exhaust that behaviour - loads of praise / a treat as soon as he stopped.


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Its a total fail anyway, the noise doesnt even make him blink now, It worked initially the first few times, and now he just doesnt seem to care about it and carries on with whatever he's doing. 

I think I need to follow Rottiefan's advice and use more effective healthy methods.

I can always use it as a spray duster for the computer haha.


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Not sure if it will help, but I took Kilo to work with me from 14 weeks of age and it was very important that he did not jump up on the desk / remove any items from the desk.
> 
> I put a bed under the desk. Every time he went onto the bed, I praised lavishly and treated. Every time he investigated the desk I removed him without a word (left a lead on him). He very quickly learnt that being on the bed meant attention and food. Once he started to go on there as soon as we entered the office I added the word 'bed'. If he was very persistent, I tethered him to the leg of the desk by his lead so that he could not jump up at the desk and had to go onto his bed....he only needed tethering about three times in total to 'get' it. Once he fully understood, a person entering the room or me leaving the room became a cue for him going and lying on his bed and I rarely had to say the word.
> 
> ...


Thank you 

Im definitely going to put these methods into practice.

We bought him a new cage cushion the other day and hes destroyed it, thrashing around with it and pulling out all the stuffing! Initially I though, oh well it is his, he can do what he wants with it, but I think I need to put a stop to this behaviour very sharpish


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Claire Bear said:


> Thank you
> 
> Im definitely going to put these methods into practice.
> 
> We bought him a new cage cushion the other day and hes destroyed it, thrashing around with it and pulling out all the stuffing! Initially I though, oh well it is his, he can do what he wants with it, but I think I need to put a stop to this behaviour very sharpish


I like the tethering method; Kilo only protested vocally with whines for 30 secs or so, then lay down. Same with ragging the bed - once he realised that it would gain him no attention at all he looked for something that would; which was lying nicely on his bed. Every time I start to feel at the end of my tether I just kind of chant 'ignore the bad, praise the good' in my head :eek6:.

I never shout at him (tempting as it is at times ) as I have found that any raised voice in volume or pitch excites him more and spurs his 'bad' behaviour on! Clickers can be great as they don't betray your emotions when you are finding things trying or exciting!


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## DogTrainer01 (Apr 13, 2011)

Claire Bear said:


> Its a total fail anyway, the noise doesnt even make him blink now, It worked initially the first few times, and now he just doesnt seem to care about it and carries on with whatever he's doing.
> 
> I think I need to follow Rottiefan's advice and use more effective healthy methods.
> 
> I can always use it as a spray duster for the computer haha.


So glad you're going to try more positive reinforcement methods 
My biggest advice for you now, would be to _enjoy_ training your dog! Dont focus so much on the end result but more on the progress along the way. I now have the mindset of 'bring it on!' with my terrier :lol:

You've said yourself he is very smart so I'm sure he will pick up on positive rienforcement methods very quickly 

Keep us updated!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> We got warned about Pet-correctors the other day at training: a person from another class
> (same training school) [used] one on her dog to stop... jumping up ( this advice was not... from the trainer) -
> it worked to a point, but the next time the dog came to class, whenever anybody approached him,
> he'd growl at them, warning them away.


oh, that's not good. :nonod: i hope the owner immediately starts associating ppl approaching with Good Things!

the main problem with aversives is that we never know what side-effects may come along, once they're used. 
what the DOG *thinks* is being taught, what the dog notices & thinks important [a stranger in mirrored glasses, 
a passing dog off-leash, etc], may be utterly different from what WE humans think... but our opinion isn't the one 
that matters, ultimately it's the dog's reactions & feelings that make or break the training results.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I think this article might be worth a read if you aren't fully convinced about positive training methods only.

A Surprising Look at Balanced Training (Smart Dog)

Positive training isn't a quick fix, but it is effective long lasting and does increase the bond and communication between you and your dog. The more your dog trusts you and feels comfortable to get it wrong without negative consequences the more happy they will be to try things and offer things when they are seeking the right one to get the treat/praise/toy.

In my experience the best thing you can do with your beagle, to make them a joy to train and share your life with, is bond with them. A bond stronger than the call of their powerful nose is achievable.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

One form of rewards-based training, 'shaping', is something I'm continually trying to improve my technique at. I love it. There's nothing better than watching a dog figuring things out for themselves, and in turn, they will begin to offer more complex behaviours purely by just trying things out and realising when they get rewarded, they should do X behaviour again, but maybe something else.

If puppy-owners spent time using this method from the beginning they would end up with a seriously cool dog


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> One form of rewards-based training, 'shaping', is something I'm continually trying to improve my technique at. I love it. There's nothing better than watching a dog figuring things out for themselves, and in turn, they will begin to offer more complex behaviours purely by just trying things out and realising when they get rewarded, they should do X behaviour again, but maybe something else.
> 
> If puppy-owners spent time using this method from the beginning they would end up with a seriously cool dog


It's a technique I've found really productive with Tink and she loves it. I now find if I get my treat bag out( (with the good treats) she starts offering all sorts of things. Sometimes I start with something in mind and sometimes we just freestyle it when she offers me something wonderful i hadn't even thought of.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

I really can't believe that there's just been a whole debate on Pet Correctors being harmful to dogs :confused1:

They shouldn't be used for basic training but used correctly and in appropriate circumstances they can be a godsend. Don't some of you have anything better to do than jump on every single person whose methods differ from your own??


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> I really can't believe that there's just been a whole debate on Pet Correctors being harmful to dogs :confused1:
> 
> They shouldn't be used for basic training but used correctly and in appropriate circumstances they can be a godsend. Don't some of you have anything better to do than jump on every single person whose methods differ from your own??


You know you can easily just make the same noise with your mouth  no need to spend money on an empty can


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> I really can't believe that there's just been a whole debate on Pet Correctors being harmful to dogs :confused1:
> [SNIP] Don't some of you have anything better to do than jump on every... person whose methods differ from your own??


did U read the posts, D-R-mum? 
about half the posts are not about the Corrector at all, but about training itself.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> I really can't believe that there's just been a whole debate on Pet Correctors being harmful to dogs :confused1:
> 
> They shouldn't be used for basic training but used correctly and in appropriate circumstances they can be a godsend. Don't some of you have anything better to do than jump on every single person whose methods differ from your own??


It's called advice 

If you read the thread, there's examples of why PC should be decided against, both scientifically and anecdotally. Even the OP is beginning to see the short-lived effects of the PC, as her dog has began to habituate to the sound.

There's a reason people are against aversive training methods.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> I really can't believe that there's just been a whole debate on Pet Correctors being harmful to dogs :confused1:
> 
> They shouldn't be used for basic training but used correctly and in appropriate circumstances they can be a godsend. Don't some of you have anything better to do than jump on every single person whose methods differ from your own??


i didn't see where anyone was jumping on anyone......................


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> It's called advice
> 
> If you read the thread, there's examples of why PC should be decided against, both scientifically and anecdotally. Even the OP is beginning to see the short-lived effects of the PC, as her dog has began to habituate to the sound.
> 
> There's a reason people are against aversive training methods.


Yes it's called advice, and I have no problem with that but increasingly on this forum there is a holier than thou, preachy type attitude that creeps in to these types of threads.

You say that theres a reason against why people are against aversive training methods but there is a world of differnce between blasting a pet corrector or throwing training discs to using say a prong collar or beating the dog.

The majority of problems that i've seen with pet correctors, training discs and even squirty water bottles is that they are often over or inapropriately used. Would it not be more helpful to explain the pro's and cons and the CORRECT way to use such items rather than rubbishing them completely?

There are people on this forum who are new to dog/animal ownership and come here for advice, not a sermon. This comment is not specifically addressed at you by the way Rottiefan, but at the tone in general that some of these training threads seem to take.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Don't some of you have anything better to do than jump on every single person whose methods differ from your own??


I don't want to sound condesending but it's innapropriate to ask the right question in the wrong place.

Anyway the answer to your question is here, on the site below.

Cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Yes it's called advice


Wrong again, here's what it's called.

Fanaticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> come here for advice, not a sermon


Sermon is one way of putting it, deliberate indoctrination is a more defintive way of putting it.
.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Not really following you there Sleepybones??


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I really can't believe that there's just been a whole debate on Pet Correctors being harmful to dogs


Well, maybe there is an answer. Animal rights extremists goals were/are that no animals should be kept in domestic 'capivity'.

A Bristol uni survey of 2006 estimated the UK dog population at 10.5 million.I doubt thereare more than 1000 trainers in UK in total, most, in termes of numbers, only use one method fits all and that amounts to fanatical overdoses of treats.

So, relate that back to animal rights extremists goals & the fact that over this past 12 years every rescue in the country is not only full but has waiting lists of weeks, and there numerous more rscues now than the mid nineties, probably 4 times more. The comon is that reason owners cannot cope with the dogs, the Blue Cross Survey of 2004 published in the mag Paw Print came up that as the 3rd most common reason, relationship difficulties & then home break ups were top, then cannot cope with dog next.

So I think the No of trainers in UK figs being quite close to 1000, thats related to a prime characteristic of this product. Anyone in UK with a dog can buy one and therefor its use can be applied to any dog in the national pack.

Based on the headline of this post & the first couple of posts of hers she had reached a point where she was not copeing with the animal, her headline is really a rush of emotion showing pure releif & overjoy that it worked for her, thereby increasing the quality of life for her, her family life & as result of her elation those things will also probably pass on to the dog in her relationship with it, 'cause she will be quite 'pleased' with it, usualy shown in the owners relationship with their dogs.

What those assumptions amount to are; What were the ever decreasing owners coping mechanisms with this dog have took an about turn, that about turn decreases the risk of the dog being slammed onto a rescue waiting list and increases the probabilitities of living its life out in a loving lifelong home. Again in turn, it also increases the probabilty the owner would get another dog at some point and because the product can applied to any dog in the national pack, if succesfull with most, would decrease the risk of nuisance dogs being put on a rescue waiting list.

That of course is a blow to animal rights extremists ultimate goals, it, along with other things, is a barrier to their goals. So when posters such as this one comes on and posts of her joy at resolving her problem with a simple, easily accesible, product which anyone can use she disrupts and threatens the goals of AR.

So, instead of everyone being pleased to see a problem of an owner living under daily punishment from the dogs behaviour & unable to solve it, increasing the dogs potential of ending up in a rescue, they read how quickly solved the problem was and without any fuss and bother. So their common, gang tactic, occures, they voice extreme veiws & subtle condemnations of the owner for solving the problem & then try make her feel guilty because she solved the human problem. Then, as is common, they simply make things up which might persuade some of the more vulnerable not to solve their own similar problems & end up with coping mechanism collapse, dog in rescue & an attitude of "I_ would never get a dog again_".

To sum up, all of sudden, after hundreds of thousands of years of liveing with man, within the last 10 or so, the domesticating species cannot cope with the species it domesticated, there is obviously a variable which has only come into large scale existance within this past 10 to 12 years & 'spread' through many the pet owning population.

I think Sara Munke of Chiltern rescue can finish this, she speaks from the front line of extremist fall out, link below.

Trained For Life | Articles on Dog Behaviour

.


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## Smiffys mum (Feb 22, 2011)

Pet Corrector is a fantastic tool if used correctly.

I have a very head strong 19 month old airedale, who until recently would totally fixate on another dog when on lead, before lunging and barking. I have tried all the positive reinforcement games to stop this, without a great deal of success.

I am now taking Smiffy back to obedience classes which are predominently positive reinforced, however was advised and trained how to use the corrector to break the fixation before the barking and lunging begins.

Smiffy can now walk in to class, wait is turn in a queue to pay, and socialise with other dogs in a close environment on a lead.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> Yes it's called advice, and I have no problem with that but increasingly on this forum there is a holier than thou, preachy type attitude that creeps in to these types of threads.
> 
> You say that theres a reason against why people are against aversive training methods but there is a world of differnce between blasting a pet corrector or throwing training discs to using say a prong collar or beating the dog.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. I give the reasons I am against them in the clearest manner as possible. I take pride in the fact that I allow myself time to look at all angles, look into science etc., and form my opinions from there. If I can't see any pros, then I won't put any. And if I think the method/device being used is significantly detrimental, then I will make sure that that's what I put.

However, on this thread I have given some practical advice on how to use it in the best way possible, although I don't agree with it in the first place.

I think the holier than thou attitude can be assumed a lot of the time- if a poster rights something directly and to the point, they may sound preachy but it isn't meant to come across like this. I am aware that I write advice, much more so than ask it on here, so I guess my posts can come across somewhat 'preachy' at times, but there are never meant to be.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> A Bristol uni survey of 2006 estimated the UK dog population at 10.5 million.I doubt thereare more than 1000 trainers in UK in total, most, in termes of numbers, only use one method fits all and that amounts to fanatical overdoses of treats.
> 
> So, relate that back to animal rights extremists goals & the fact that over this past 12 years every rescue in the country is not only full but has waiting lists of weeks, and there numerous more rscues now than the mid nineties, probably 4 times more. The comon is that reason owners cannot cope with the dogs, the Blue Cross Survey of 2004 published in the mag Paw Print came up that as the 3rd most common reason, relationship & home break ups were top, then.
> 
> ...


Claire Bear had only had the PC a short amount of time, it's not like she had resolved a problem in 1 day, and she was writing the post 6 months afterwards.



> What those assumptions amount to are, what was the ever decreasing owners coping mechanisms have took an about turn, that about turn decreases the risk of the dog being slammed onto a rescue waiting list and increases the probabilitities of living its life out in a loving lifelong home, again in turn, it also increases the probabilty the owner would get another dog at some point and because the product can applied to any dog in the national pack, if succesfull with most, would decrease the risk of nuisance dogs being put on a rescue waiting list.


You could say this about any training that shows a quick improvement initially.



> That of course is a blow to animal rights extremists ultimate goals, it, along with other things, is a barrier to their goals. So when posters such as this one comes on and posts of her joy at resolving her problem with a simple, easily accesible, product which anyone can use she disrupts and threatens the goals of AR, so instead of everyone being pleased to see a problem quickly solved and without any fuss and bother, they make things up which might persuade some of the more vulnerable not to solve their own similar problems, end up with coping mechanism collapse, dog in rescue & an attitude of "I_ would never get a dog again_".


So whether the specific behaviour stops or not is the only thing that matters in training? What about additional effects of the training method, do they not come into play? A dog may stop jumping up, but if they become nervous of approaching people, is that okay?



> To sum up, all of sudden, after hundreds of thousands of years of liveing with man,within the last 10 or so, the domesticating species cannot cope with the species it domesticated, there is obviously a variable which has only come into large scale existance within this past 10 to 12 years & 'spread' through many the pet owning population.


There is a variable and I doubt that training methods are having as much effect as you think there are. And if they were, the use of harsh training methods would still quantitively outweigh the use of rewards-based training, I think.



> I think Sara Munke of Chiltern rescue can finish this, she speaks from the front line, link below.


Well, I know many other people on the 'front line' would disagree with her.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Ohh lol yea, Rottiefan.....I knew I forgotten something, you being around's reminded me.

Of course apart from calculated, well reheresed AR extermism theres also the quite recent pet dog training industry, the training is centered around a foundation buisness plan & the latest, spiv, buisness techniques. Fine example below, 2 years and all he ends up with is a prisoner on a noose line and bank count thats got a 'trainers tap' instead of zip, more 'kind methods' eh! ehehehehe

New dog owner

*Alexpb22 -* _I live in London so as you can imagine it's vey expensive. My first trainer's rate was £150 for 2 hours, the second one was £300 for several sessions, third was £160 for two hours and the fourth was £80 for one hour. They all used different techniques and some mutual techniques and all were recommended and very experienced. The classes I go to are one of a kind and are excellent and only cost £20 per class but aren't in London so it involves a two hour car journey there and two hours back once a week so once you've factored petrol in it's actually quite a lot_

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/179338-remote-spray-collar-advice-2.html

.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Ohh lol yea, Rottiefan.....I knew I forgotten something, you being around's reminded me.
> 
> Of course apart from calculated, well reheresed AR extermism theres also the quite recent pet dog training industry, the training is centered around a foundation buisness plan & the latest, spiv, buisness techniques. Fine example below, 2 years and all he ends up with is a prisoner on a noose line and bank count thats got a 'trainers tap' instead of zip, more 'kind methods' eh! ehehehehe
> 
> ...


Sleepy, you've posted this numerous times now. And why does that have anything to do with me?! You are constantly shaping and bending arguments so you can just post your allotment of articles and stats again, and again, and again. A lot of the time, no one has a clue what you are going on about. I posted in response to you, you give no response but some drivel I've seen countless times before. You'll be posting you head collar habituation article or Cordoba study article before long, with no one having the slightest clue why they fit in with the topic.

I also have noticed that your quotes from supposed 'other people' change from post to post. Is it possible you have made them up?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> your allotment of articles


hehehe



> and stats again, and again, and again


The same arguments always have the same answer, thought you'd know that, I posted _stats_ in response often enough!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> The same arguments always have the same answer, thought you'd know that, I posted _stats_ in response often enough!


Yes, but when those same arguments are never heeded, and are often downright inapplicable to the topic, what good are they?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

OMG I laughed so hard I almost peed!!!! :lol:

SB you really are something aren't you?

Not content with spreading your usual BS propaganda that you can only train a dog by hurting and terrifying it into obediance because other methods don't work - you've now gone on to suggest that people who promote humane, reward based methods are part of some sort of AR conspiracy to see an end to keeping dogs as pets!!

That is genius! Inspired! Do you also believe that the government is controlled by aliens / lizards?

As it happens I do *NOT* support AR, at all, and quite honestly I might be offended by the idea if it wasn't so damn funny.

Don't you have anything better to do than play games with semantics and conspiracies and skewed statistics?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> people who promote humane, reward based methods are part of some sort of AR conspiracy to see an end to keeping dogs as pets!!


No one uses reward based methods, thats sales talk. The most common foundation used by those selling themselves as 'positive' or 'reward' based training is attempting to use negative punishment base, going from your writings your one of them who tries to use negative punishments as a base.

By the way are you a commercial trainer?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> ou can only train a dog by hurting and terrifying it into obediance


Looks happy enough to me, so maybe you could point the video times where you see the 'terrification' occures

So lets have a look at your "Leave" foundation vids, with an equivilent high drive dog, words don't cut it these days.






.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> No one uses reward based methods, thats sales talk.


For the love of dog, do we have to go through this tripe again? 
Some folks prefer to train by rewarding desirable behaviour, inc response to a cue and general good behaviour (eg walking on a loose lead). 
Stop muddying the waters with semantics - just because YOU actually do choose to train using pain you feel the need to imply that trainers who use rewards as their primary method are actually training by causing suffering too. Another conspiracy!
(Some might consider this paranoid)

I don't have any vids to show you off the top of my head, I don;t actually spend my days trawling through youtube for your benefit. Although I do happen to know a fair number of dogs with a solid "leave" (amongst other things) that didn't need to be hit / kicked / prodded / choked / pinched / pronged / sprayed / yanked / shocked or otherwise bullied into it.

And no, as it happens I'm not a commercial trainer. I'm a pet owner - and (shhh don't tell anyone) one of those dreaded "acedemics".

So, do you fancy justifying you AR accusations? Or are the lizard men preventing you from doing so???


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> For the love of dog, do we have to go through this tripe again?


You chose to through the road you now call tripe.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I don't have any vids to show you off the top of my head


I thought that might be case.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Some folks prefer to train by rewarding desirable behaviour,


Thats not reward based, thats negative punishment based, hunger is the most common stimulus used with it.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> just because YOU actually do choose to train using pain you feel the need to imply that


You have make it clear what your talking about, especially as making dogs hungry to train them is deliberatly causing hunger pain & thats quite common with those negative punishment only based methods, which is your main thing, by the way what kind of dog do you have?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> trainers who use rewards as their primary method are actually training by causing suffering too


Why do you keep stateing entirely false, not just fale, IMPOSSIBLE statements? you must have an underlying questionable motive, what is it?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> trainers who use rewards as their primary method are actually training by causing suffering too. Another conspiracy!
> (Some might consider this paranoid)


More mere words avoiding the reality,


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> So, do you fancy justifying you AR accusations? Or are the lizard men preventing you from doing so???


Well how not surprising, so theres the motive behind the distractions of your post, 'outed'.


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## Mollyspringer (Aug 16, 2011)

Blimey, what a can of worms has been opened here-better than watching Eastenders!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


>


Sleepy-Brains, U've posted a link to a PRIVATE video - 
inaccessible without a password or other specific access.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Thanks here it is along with a worn out end of tether owner


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## DogTrainer01 (Apr 13, 2011)

Do we have an ignore function on this forum? :confused1:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Thats not reward based, thats negative punishment based, hunger is the most common stimulus used with it.


For the last time (I hope) the majority of folks using rewards to train do NOT I repeat *NOT* cause the dog "hunger pains" in order to do so. :mad2:

There is actually ZERO need for the dog to be hungry in order to use food rewards successfully (something the anti-reward brigade like to pretend). This is why we tend to train with things the dog likes the taste of - normal dry food is fine for very easy / low distraction etc tasks, high value treats are used for more difficult work.

You also completely forget that we also use other rewards - verbal praise, physical petting, and similar "attention", toys and games, and of course life rewards (getting lead on to go for a walk, being let off lead when on a walk, being allowed to greet other dog, etc).



> You have make it clear what your talking about


I'm guessing you don't fall under that category of terrible "academics" then?



> Well how not surprising, so theres the motive behind the distractions of your post, 'outed'.


Does anybody else not understand what the hell this guy is on about here?

I posted on this thread purely because I was so amused / incensed by SB's suggestions that people who favour rewards over punishments, who prefer teaching dogs without aversives so far as is possible, etc are a bunch of AR extremists, deliberately making dog behaviour worse to get dogs dumped and pts; as part of some master plan to eradicate them from out society.

But apparently I'm the one who has been "outed" for having a "motive" behind my "distractions"??? What motive? What distractions? WTF are you on about? And please, please go back to the AR accusations - their so damn funny.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> Thanks here it is along with a worn out end of tether owner
> 
> APDT Training Damage, Another APDT Trained Owner Ripped Off - YouTube


What on earth was all that about?! A Labrador, being walked by an inexperienced handler. Hardly a damaged dog  If that woman had had a bag of hot dog pieces in her pocket, I guarantee he would have been far more interested in her than sniffing the pavement.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> *No one uses reward based methods*, thats sales talk.


Thousands of world-wide members on just ONE Yahoo-group are *pet-owners*, & all use 
reward-based training: TrainingLevels. There's a free manual, a free on-line log, many UTube videos, 
they've had 'virtual competitions' with international teams, & the Yahoo-group serves as a support group 
for folks who have questions, get stuck, etc.

Read this first: 
Introduction

join here: traininglevels : Training Levels Support 


> Members: *3,620*
> Category: *Training & Obedience*
> Founded: *Sep 16, 2004*
> Language: *English*


oops! forgot the on-line *tracker - * also free: 
Training Levels Tracker - Welcome to Training Levels Tracker!

Level 1 - 
Training Level ONE

Level 2 - 
Training Level TWO

Level 3-A - 
Training Level THREE A

3-B - 
Training Level THREE B

Level 4-A - 
Training Level FOUR A

4-B - 
Training Level FOUR B

Level 5-A - 
Training Level FIVE A

5-B - 
Training Level FIVE B

Level 6-A - 
Training Level SIX A

6-B - 
Training Level SIX B

Level 7-A - 
Training Level SEVEN A

7-B - 
Training Level SEVEN B

the primary advantage to Levels Training is that the *proofing* is built into the process. 
the manual describes all the situations: distances, distractions, duration of behavior, etc. When U finish, 
U have a dog who is extremely reliable, works at a distance, & happily complies because of a long, solid 
reinforcement history - not to AVOID consequences, but because all these behaviors have been rewarding; 
the dog has lots of positive-associations & loves to learn [train].

plus, the dog can be rated / tested on any one behavior to any level - 
a beginner dog with a really-reliable recall might already have a Level 3 recall, 
while her/his distant SIT or distant DOWN might be nonexistent. That's OK. 
U can work on building position changes at a distance in Level-1, while doing Level-3 work on recalls.

it's all mix-&-match; the DOG & the OWNER / handler progress at their own pace. 
Go as fast as U like - or if training-time is limited, or U get stuck on one behavior, continue with those 
other behaviors that the dog finds easier, & continue to work on the harder things at the lower-level.

this is self-study, basically - and it's FREE; anyone can do this, anytime.

Level 7-B: 


> * this color is MANDATORY behaviors.
> this color is No Food / No marker behaviors.
> This color is optional behaviors.
> 
> ...


plenty of pet-owners around the world use reward-based training; it's very popular in Japan, 
Aus / NZ, & across the UK. The USA is behind, as is Spain; Sweden & other Nordic countries far outstrip 
most of the world, in terms of the popularity of reward-based training; there, it's pervasive & standard.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DogTrainer01 said:


> Do we have an ignore function on this forum? :confused1:


yes - and i use it! :lol: it saves much grief. :thumbsup:

go to Ur EDIT profile-page, look to the left, click on EDIT IGNORE LIST. 
enter the user-name, click SAVE.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> A Labrador, being walked by an inexperienced handler. Hardly a damaged dog If that woman had had a bag of hot dog pieces in her pocket, I guarantee he would have been far more interested in her than sniffing the pavement


Shes not a handler shes an owner & shes had dogs for several years but before this one they were comparitively placid mild ones, this one was a bit more self willed than the others thats all  theres more details in this documentary vid.

1. APDT Training Methods Causing Severe Health Damage. - YouTube

.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> There is actually ZERO need for the dog to be hungry in order to use food rewards successfully (something the anti-reward brigade like to pretend).


You really do need to do some research, Skinner always recommended hunger when he was instructing on basic operant, a KC gold judge and pro competion trainer recommends 3 days for without food for dogs which are a bit awkward, she calls herself a positive trainer.

That works out at around 9 meals a month untill the recall becomes reliable & that is what your promoting, geeze, wouldn't like to be a dog of yours. That is what your promoting, she's an experienced competion trainer, quite a good one & KC gold judge, whats your background? & what dogs do you have? I mean are you a KC judge? succesfull competion trainer?

.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

People can call themselves anything they like, that's why it's usually recommended to talk to a trainer, or go to watch their classes before letting them near your dog. 

What has successful competition trainer got to do with anything? I know plenty of successful competition trainers I wouldn't let within 10 miles of any of my animals. 

If someone recommended starving my dog in order to train her, I'd guess there were some very large holes in their training and they were the ones who would need to be doing some research, not me.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> ...Skinner always recommended hunger when he was instructing on basic operant...


that was also the era when striping one's child with a belt well laid-on was perfectly acceptable behavior, 
not only by a parent but by a teacher if the infraction was 'serious'; in the UK, caning was the norm.

that is now prosecutable as abuse. If anyone lays hands on a person, or strikes a person with an object, 
it's not DISCIPLINE anymore - it's ASSAULT. It is only justified when defending oneself. 


SleepyBones said:


> ...a KC gold judge & pro competion trainer recommends 3 days [...] without food for dogs
> which are a bit awkward, she calls herself a positive trainer.


*if that's true* she's seriously misguided, AND I HOPE that someone reports her to the RSPCA. 
"claiming" to be reward-based is easily done; that U also claim that she's reward-based is ridiculous.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> You really do need to do some research, Skinner always recommended hunger when he was instructing on basic operant, a KC gold judge and pro competion trainer recommends 3 days for without food for dogs which are a bit awkward, she calls herself a positive trainer.


Do I really?

Tbh, I couldn't give a flying toadstool what God-King-Emporer-Skinner said all those years ago.
In the vast number of books / websites / conversations etc I have had with trainers / instructors / behaviourists / pet owners I haven't known hunger recommended; not for many years at least. 
I do remember that one or two of the books I read some years back suggesting that training sessions should be carried out before the dogs usual meal rather than after, but even then no mention of witholding food.

Certainly in the training and behaviour courses / seminars I have attended more recently it was deliberately, specifically stated that hunger is not necessary (as this is still a popular misconception).

Of course, you can train that way; using hunger / food as you describe, but most normal folk don't. We use treats; things the dog will work for hungry or not. Things that are novel / high value / tastier. And of course, as mentioned before, we also use a wide variety of other reinforcers - not just edible ones. Many trainers use toys / play as their primary reinforcers; and many will use petting and praise - in conjunction with other rewards or alone for low level work.

Funnily enough I also know people who compete with their dogs in various disciplines, who use edible rewards without starvation.



> That works out at around 9 meals a month untill the recall becomes reliable & that is what your promoting, geeze, wouldn't like to be a dog of yours. That is what your promoting


There's lies, damned lies and SleepyBones eh?

I have NEVER promoted starving a dog in the name of training - on the contrary, this whole discussion (the second we've had on this particular subject) has been me saying there is no need to make the dog hungry to train with treats.

But hey, you're not interested in the truth are you?



> whats your background? & what dogs do you have? I mean are you a KC judge? succesfull competion trainer?


No.

And who are you - the Spanish Inquisition?

My background is very little of your concern. Indeed I'm pretty sure this is one of those no-win questions.

If I say I train dogs for a living, or that I compete, you will no doubt claim that I am trying to rob trainers like you of your customers, or that I'm trying to sabotage my opponents efforts in competition or some such other nonsense. Gotta love those conspiracies eh?
On the flip side, if I say no, I'm not a commercial trainer, don't instruct / comepete / judge you will simply claim I therefore have no right to my opinions and have no clue what I'm talking about. Convenient.

Same with my dogs - whatever my reply you will of course go on to claim that this is an "easy" breed / age / gender / whatever and that my type of training wouldn't work on a... *insert alternative dog here*.

For what its worth, I do have some relevent qualifications; inc a first class BSc honours degree.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> What has successful competition trainer got to do with anything?


Its to do with Collette putting herself across as some kind of masterclass trainer and so far has refused to say what kind of dog she has and what comparitive experience she has compared to B F Skinner as one example I gave & who lab taught more animals then anyone in existance & an accomplished comempetion trainer & KC who both emphais starving dogs if they are a bit on the awkward side.

Collettes the one putting herself to challenge both Skinner & the KC Gold judge/competition pro, yet twice now she has failed to even answer what background she has to challenge both of those, shew is challenging B F Skinner, the father of modern behaviourism & the KC judge who recommends 3 days starving an awkwatd the dog for recall = 9 meals a month, I want to know what dog breed and what competion or whatever background she has to 'know' these things, which is exactly what shes suggesting.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I couldn't give a flying toadstool what God-King-Emporer-Skinner said all those years ago.


The KC gold judge is recent.

Apart from that, the egative ounishment base your promting only supresses behaviours and the dog behaves in ways to avoid the punishment you promote, don't be so arrogant when refering to Skinner, it is his theory of learning you are refering to.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Bored now... go find someone else to play with... might I suggest the M25?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I do have some relevent qualifications; inc a first class BSc honours degree.


So its all writing and no practice.

Even so its ineresting you did a uni, so how come your claiming reward base when you MUST know there is no such thing as reward base in the learning theory!!!!!!! its a punishment base you promote as reward training,


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> has been me saying there is no need to make the dog hungry to train with treats.


OK so an everday event throughout the UK, the dog takes off at appx 30km per hour, to stop it, you hold the treat up and shout - "_If you don't come back now I'll put this back in my pocket and you cannot have it_" by that time the dogs around 300 meters away & according to you it will come back for the treat.

Thats it is it? Greatttt - no need for anyone to go to training classes for that, anyone can give a treat without going to one of the ineffective trainers around UK


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> ...B F Skinner... who lab-[trained] more animals then anyone in existance...
> [sic; existEnce]


even if the training is limited to lab-settings only, i am not sure this is true.

more accurately, his graduate-students, Marian Kruse [Breland] & Keller Breland, did a lot 
of the nitty-gritty of training, particularly when Skinner was lecturing, writing, traveling, etc.

the Brelands later founded Animal Behavior Enterprises & trained literally thousands 
of animals, of dozens if not hundreds of species; plus they worked for the US-Navy training marine mammals 
in open ocean, & trained other species for the Army, etc [pigeons who picked out camouflaged artillery 
from photos taken via aircraft, etc].

Marian Breland Bailey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> there is no such thing as reward base in the learning theory!!!!!!! its a punishment base you promote as reward training,


You still failed to continue our discussion on this. You gave references to your views, but I do not have the whole books. If what you say is true, it should be in an article, so where is it?

I, personally, think this is another misconstrued concept of yours as I have never once came across what you are saying.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> You still failed to continue our discussion on this.


I looked in the citronella post last nigh ait was not there & then in another not there either, I dont know which post it was in.
What part



> If what you say is true, it should be in an article, so where is it?


What part of what I said?



> I, personally, think* this *is another misconstrued concept of yours as I have never once came across what you are saying.


Yea but what do you mean "this"?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> I looked in the citronella post last nigh ait was not there & then in another not there either, I dont know which post it was in.
> What part


It's in there.



> What part of what I said?


That 1) using a lure method is negative punishment and 2) that everything has a punishment base, and even rewards-based training, like shaping for example, use negative punishment as their premise and not positive reinforcement.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Actually it is not in the Citronella thread, it's in the 'mounting puppy' thread


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> It's in there.
> 
> That 1) using a lure method is negative punishment and 2) that everything has a punishment base, and even rewards-based training, like shaping for example, use negative punishment as their premise and not positive reinforcement.


I haven't read the whole thread, but someone does not have a clue what these terms mean.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> That 1) using a lure method is negative punishment


 Yes thats right but before I answer where did you get it from (main/original source) that operants have a reward base? is it just the genral heard oit all over the place thing? or some animal degree course, if the later which one?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> ..._nTeresting [sic] [that] you did a uni[versity degree], so [why do U you claim the training is]
> reward-based when you MUST know there's no such thing as reward base in the learning theory!!!!!!!
> its a punishment base you promote as reward training[.] _


_

then Andrew Ledford & hundreds of thousands of others must be wrong - Right?

reward training

only YOU, Sleepy-Brains, know *the truth of this conspiracy.* :lol:

Dunbar DVM - 
Dog training: The case for using food lures and rewards | DogTime.com - Find your wag.

Coren PhD / Psych - 
Reward Training versus Discipline-Based Dog Training: Which Works Better | Psychology Today

here's a boilerplate article - 
Reward/Lure Training|What is It|An Effective Dog Training Technique?

IGNORE the *"Secrets of Dog-Training"* sales cr*p - the article is worth reading, but training 
is *not* a secret; we reward what we want, eliminate rewards for what we don't want, & get behaviors 
on cue; then we proof the cued behaviors.

NONdog scholarly articles - 
Positive reinforcement training to enhance the voluntary movement of group-housed chimpanzees within their enclosures - Bloomsmith - 1998 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library

*THE USE OF POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT TRAINING IN THE MANAGEMENT 
OF SPECIES FOR REPRODUCTION*
by Tim Desmond & Gail Laule; Active Environments, Inc.
http://tinyurl.com/42b8whd

JOURNAL OF APPLIED ANIMAL WELFARE SCIENCE, 6(3), 175187 
Copyright © 2003, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Inc.
*Positive Reinforcement Training As a Technique to Alter Nonhuman Primate Behavior: 
Quantitative Assessments of Effectiveness *
by Steven J. Schapiro, Dept of Vet. Sciences, Univ. of Texas; M. D. Anderson Cancer Center 
Mollie A. Bloomsmith, TECHLab Zoo Atlanta, & Yerkes Natl Primate Research Center; Atlanta, GA 
Gail E. Laule, Active Environments; Lompoc, Calif. 
http://tinyurl.com/63r5vb4

funny how these researchers all think it exists, & it's written up in college texts, journals, etc... 
:huh: Do i think these sources are more reliable than Sleepy-Brains? Yes, as a matter of record, i do._


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I would like to point out for the benefit of everyone else on here - I've used the magic button at long last - hence why I am clearly not replying to certain posts. I am of course still interested in what everyone else has to say.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Yes thats right but before I answer where did you get it from (main/original source) that operants have a reward base? is it just the genral heard oit all over the place thing? or some animal degree course, if the later which one?


I have never heard anyone saying that anything has a 'base', from Skinner, to Lindsey, to Burch & Bailey. If this 'base' concept is true, then why- in the way you describe it- is there any point of have 'reinforcement' quadrants in the literature? Surely, if positive reinforcement wasn't reinforcement at all, but an abstract, clumsy form of punishment, then it would be much more confusing to have this quadrant in the first place.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

LOL! Greek, pseudo-intellectualism or lizardian?


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

*off topic alert*


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## Smiffys mum (Feb 22, 2011)

Good Grief!!!!!!!!!

This thread has turned in to a ridiculous fiasco that is enough to put anyone off being active on PF.

I, like most people on here, log on for advice and support. Sorry peeps I have had enough!


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Well, this thread has now become complete and utter gobledeegook and TBH I am glad that i'm not a newbie reading this for training tips because if I was I think that i'd chuck myself off the nearest bridge! :mad2:

I think that the majority off us agree that positive reward based training is the way to go to teach new behaviours and shape behaviours. I use clicker training with both my dogs and have found it to be really effective and enjoy doing...BUT... I do think that that certain "aversive" methods such as pet correctors, training discs & squirty water bottles have their place for certain behaviours and with certain dogs AS LONG AS THEY ARE USED CORRECTLY and the dog doesn't link the sound/effect to it's owner!!!

To give you an example using my two dogs, my Dane is stubborn and bratty at times and can be over excitable. When we first got him from the rescue he treated my then 4 year old daughter like a toy. He wasn't aggressive towards her, but would grab her clothes and pull her about and get over excited. Given their relative sizes, this behavour was bloody dangerous and my daughter could have ended up being hurt. All attempts to distract him to a different toy failed when he was in this state and if anything only served to wind him up even more.

We used a pet corrector to sort it and it only took 3 blasts before he got the message that when he grabbed her a loud WHOOOOSH happened.

I kept the Pet corrector in my pocket, hidden from him at all times and only fired it if his mouth made contact with her clothes. He would jump when he heard the noise, as would I and my daughter and everyone would look around in confusion. The interruption of the behaviour allowed us to distract him onto something else because it broke his focus on her and snapped him out of the excitable state. He would be given a different toy and allowed to play with it, being rewarded for playing calmly.

To this day I can honestly say that that dog never knew that we were triggering the sound, he beleived it was caused by his actions, ergo, he stopped doing it because it had an unpleasant consequence.

My Rottie on the other hand has a much softer more sensitive temperament and is far less excitable than the Dane, despite being the younger of the two, and a pet corrector or the like would be far too "harsh" to use with him. A stern "no" or "Uh Uh" is enough.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

koekemakranka said:


> LOL! Greek, pseudo-intellectualism or lizardian?


that's what typically happens when Sleepy-Brains rouses, & inserts weird illogic & mislabeled rants in threads. 
it degenerates to a mishmosh of bullcr*p which is claimed to be truth, & facts that are distorted past recognition.

hence my fondness for the *ignore* button. Plastering over the rants makes the thread 
much-easier to understand, & a lot less frustrating. :thumbup: i highly recommend it.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sorry for any inconvenience caused, I didn't think words such as 'reinforcement' and 'punishment' were that confusing. Obviously they are. If SleepyB wants to spread his usual stuff, I would quite like to ask him 'why?' once in a while. However, after asking 'why?' a number of times now, he has failed to respond with an answer, so let's just leave it be. 

Pet correctors- is there a place for them? Not in pet dog training, in home scenarios, I don't think. There is always management options, and time to give to work on problems in different ways that have a higher percentage of succeeding. An owner who goes straight to using one has not looked hard enough at a behaviour, and has not thought things through as clearly. This is not to say they won't work, but that they are not the best option in my book. 

However, in environments where significant improvements have to made in a small amount of days, e.g. within the week, perhaps there is a place for them. But the type of problem and type of dog to use them with is very limited.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Pet correctors - is there a place for them? Not in pet dog training, in home scenarios, I don't think.
> There is always management options, & time to give to work on problems in different ways that have a higher
> ...


yes - 
soft-natured dogs or those easily-startled will respond BEAUTIFULLY to a spray-can, *but the odds for fallout* 
[meaning behavior after the use of the spray-corrector] *are greatly increased,* because this dog is soft 
& easily-impacted by aversives, or is sensitive to novelty & easily-worried.

OTOH dogs who are deeply-involved in some activity [a scenthound on a trail, a sighthound seeing game, 
a dog-reactive dog who sees another dog nearby, etc] are more-likely to be oblivious unless it's practically sprayed 
in their EARS - something that the maker of the spray would never suggest!

the dog must be distractible, have normal-hearing [not deaf, H-o-H or monaural], be resilient & not timid, 
recover quickly from the startle & forgive the handler, yet be amenable to re-direction from the unwanted behavior.

the behavior has to be something done CLOSE-enuf to the handler that the dog can 'hear' the spray-sound; 
a dog who's crashing thru brush after a fleeing deer is not gonna hear the spray at all. A dog who's off-leash 
& more than 10-ft away outdoors is unlikely to get the significance; it's pretty much an INDOORS tool, or at best 
an On-Leash tool within 6-ft or so...

_that's precisely where & when we have loads of other, less-aversive & more-effective options, 
that are unlikely to have any of the potential worrying after-effects of the corrector-spray._

so... it can't be used with many dogs at all; it can be used with some dogs with caution. 
it can't be used at a distance; it can't be used in most outdoor settings, as wind, surf, etc, drown it out. 
it can be used at home, or indoors; it can be used within 5 to 8-ft of the handler. That's about it. 
very limited use, & always the potential for after-effects, which as we cannot *predict* them accurately, 
we definitely cannot *prevent* them. We can only try to fix them if they occur.

with the limitations of use, the cautious weighing of 'my dog's temp', & the risk of fallout, i'd skip it entirely. 
there are so many other safer & simpler ways to manage the dog's behavior while re-training another, 
preferable behavior in its place.  JMO & IME - yer mileage may vary.


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## Mollyspringer (Aug 16, 2011)

Can someone please tell me, a newby, where the ignore button is????


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Mollyspringer said:


> Can someone please tell me, a newby, where the ignore button is????


I'll tell you as long as you promise it isn't me you want to ignore.

Go into the person's user profile, click on users lists then add to ignore list.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I'll tell you as long as you promise it isn't me you want to ignore.
> 
> Go into the person's user profile, click on users lists then add to ignore list.


LOL, noone would ignore you...you is lovely 

Can you tell if someone has ignored you?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

The pet corrector is NO different from the jar with stones in if used correctly!
It is all about timing! 
If this forum had been here in the 1960's then there would have been loads of advice given regarding a rolled up newspaper! 

Can't see why folk fall out about it! I've used it! sparingly I add!!! and WOULD recommend it for CERTAIN habits!

DT


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

DT said:


> The pet corrector is NO different from the jar with stones in if used correctly!
> It is all about timing!
> If this forum had been here in the 1960's then there would have been loads of advice given regarding a rolled up newspaper!
> 
> ...


Perhaps you could use exclamation marks as sparingly?  

I agree- 50 years ago everything would have been different. But we've learnt a lot since then. We know that dogs don't just perform behaviours either because they are purposively 'trying it on' with us, or are competing for rank or position of the pack (other dogs or humans). We _do_ know that dogs perform behaviours upon what the associate different things with- a dog that likes people will approach people, if they have been rewarded with attention as a puppy for jumping up, they will continue to do it as an adult etc. But this creates behaviour problems.

Whilst we can punish behaviours, and even use aversive training methods to teach that the outcome of a behaviour is bad, thus they shouldn't do it, there is evidence to show that 1) we have little knowledge or control over how to punish _just enough_ without creating other drawbacks and 2) animals and humans respond better to being told what to do, rather than not what to do. This means positive reinforcement training, and actually training replacement behaviours, or putting a problem behaviour on cue. Here's an example of a 'behaviour problem' being dealt with in a way that most people would never believe without seeing:
Putting a Dog's Unwanted Behavior on Stimulus Control (to get Rid of it)-Jumping - YouTube

Rewards-based training has many many many ways of working on behavioural problems, so I always think there's a way, rather than go to aversive training methods.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DT said:


> If this forum had been here in the 1960s, ...there would have been loads of advice given
> regarding a rolled-up newspaper!


in the 1960s i was using a *choke-chain* on my first puppy, in a group-class under my mentor, 
as a 4-H kid; i don't use choke-chains OR RECOMMEND THEM any more, either.

i've never used a rolled-newspaper except to kill flies & to swat my nephews, now & then. 

i don't use rattle-cans or penny-bottles, either - nor do i recommend or suggest them. 
i avoid aversives as much as possible - which as they're easily avoided, means 99.999% of the time. 
i cannot recall the last time i used an aversive *in training **- but it's been over 5-years, that much i do know.

* i used an umbrella opened at face-level when a loose-dog charged, to deter him, when i was handling 
a dog-reactive / dog-aggro Rough Collie, during a walk; the Collie was a foster in the care of a local rescue-org. 
That's not training; it's an emergency, & the visual block & my firm suggestion that he GO HOME 
were sufficient to send him off. [2004]


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## Mollyspringer (Aug 16, 2011)

Thankyou, Newfiesmum xx


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> in the 1960s i was using a *choke-chain* on my first puppy, in a group-class under my mentor,
> as a 4-H kid; i don't use choke-chains OR RECOMMEND THEM any more, either.
> 
> i've never used a rolled-newspaper except to kill flies & to swat my nephews, now & then.
> ...


wouldn't fancy the brollies chances with some out there today Terry
AS I've said! I've used it! Only on my girl I add as my lad is of a nervous disposition she has shown NO diverse effects from me doing so whatsoever! Infact I would go so far to say she is perhaps one of the most friendliest and laid back dogs that walks this earth!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Mollyspringer said:


> Can someone please tell me, a newby, where the ignore button is????





GillyR said:


> LOL, noone would ignore you...you is lovely
> 
> Can you tell if someone has ignored you?


Thank you so much. I don't think anyone can tell if they are on someone's ignore list. I know someone on here who could tell you, being on lots of lists



Mollyspringer said:


> Thankyou, Newfiesmum xx


You are very welcome.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Putting a Dog's Unwanted Behavior on Stimulus Control (to get Rid of it)-Jumping - YouTube


Nice one rottiefan. :thumbup:


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

This thread seems to have lost the plot and deterriorated some what!
I have tried to read through it and am interested to watch the video above, however as I'm in work that will have to wait until tommorow.

A couple of queries I have regarding training;

Im a bit confused about rewarding Wesley, I think I need to stop him letting up onto the sofa to really conquer the jumping up problem. However If I reward him after he jumps up and then gets down arn't I rewarding the fact he jumped up in the first place?

Is repetitive behaviour, such as putting him back on the floor once he jumps up, effective at all? Ive been doing this with a verbal command of 'no'

Thanks all


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Mollyspringer said:


> Can someone please tell me, a newby, where the ignore button is????


Lol! The sound of utter desperation....


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Elles said:


> Nice one rottiefan. :thumbup:


Her whole channels (Supernaturalbc 2009 and also Supernaturalbc2008) are brilliant!


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