# Does he have any quality of life?



## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Hi there,

One last post before I head off to my pit. This is actually the first wabbit forum I have come across on t'internet so hopefully you can help...

Zebedee is male dwarf rabbit. He is around 3 years old now and we got him along with another male from a pet shop when they were babies. The said stupid ass pet shop owner neglected to point out that you shouldn't keep uncastrated bucks together :nonod:

At first I wasn't aware what was happening and one day out of the blue Zebby bit me. A week or so later I witnessed a horrific fight between the two of them and suddenly it became clear why Zebedee had turned on me. The other buck was the agressor and Zebedee sustained a nasty gash to his neck. I rehomed the other rabbit and bought Zebby into the house to recover from his injuries - I also got him castrated.

Once he got better Zebs temperament did improve for a while. He's never been fond of cuddles but would tolerate them.

Anyway, in recent months all this has changed again. Zebby hates to be picked up or stroked. I daren't pick him up as he kicks out and I worry about him hurting his back with all the thrashing about. Zebedee doesn't have any health problems and nothing changed to make him agressive again.

These days he doesn't really get any human interaction seen as he just doesn't appear to want it! I pop him in his run when I can and obviously I feed him and clean the 'poo' corner every day but is this fulfilling enough for him as a life? Are bucks generally like this? 

Any thoughts or ideas on how to make him a bit more people friendly would be greatly received.

Thanks in advance x


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

I..unlike many on this site...would not class myself as a rabbit expert...but I do have a few pets. But I was moved by your story.

In short...yes he has a good quality of life as he has food, warmth and the love care and attention of someone who obviously loves him. Perhaps trauma in early life has made him timid though why he seemed to get a bit better and then worse is a mystery to me.

You're doing the best thing though. It is hard when they dont respond to your love how you'd hope. Who knows it might get better. 

Really I guess all im saying is a feel for you and your bun. You'll have better advice from others I guess. xx


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Maybe a girlfriend would be the best for him. Phone your local bunny rescues and see whats available, most rescues will do the bonding for you so it all goes smoothly. Rabbits do prefer their own company but as you found out two males will fight. He may be wary of other rabbits and take a while to trust another bun to become friends but thats where the rescue would help as they are experienced in this kind of thing so know how slow to go with the bonding.

As for making him more people friendly, most rabbits hate to be picked up. This is because they are a prey animal by nature and the feeling for them being picked up is like a bird of prey grabbing them for dinner. Sit in his run with him but ignore him completely, you may want a book or something to entertain you. Have some of his fave treats in your pocket and just wait. He will slowly build up the courage to come sniff you if your there long enough without making sudden movements, don't even look at him. When he does come to sniff you again just ignore him and carry on with your book. This will show your not interested in himand won't pounce on him if he goes near you. As he starts getting braver and stays near you longer even cleaning himself next to you offer him a treat but then go back to the ignoring. If you do this often enough he will eventually start trying to take your book and pester you for attention as he'll learn you give him treats when he comes to you. Eventually he'll run up to you when he see's you waiting for a treat but to get this far can take months. Its always best to go down to bunny level to get them used to you when they aren't very people friendly and go as slow as necessary.

Have a look at this it shows some rabbit body language and explains some of the odd behaviours, watching Zebedee's body language and understanding it is key to becoming his friend.
http://www.fuzzy-rabbit.com/behaviourfaq.htm


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## becca&jack (Jan 21, 2010)

sorry to hear about this but if i was you i wouldnt give up.. i found with my rabbit that persaverance worked and the more i got him out the more he liked being picked up.. in the end he loved cuddles and followed me around and went to sleep on my lap and he was an uncastrated buck.He wouldnt let anybody else hold him though. It sounds like itll be difficult to get him used to it but itll be worth it it just takes alot of time


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Some animals are just like that. Some of my cats are semi feral and my rat hates human contact despite months of socialisation. My rex bunny, Jake, lived on his own in the garden and hated too much interaction. Although he used to jump onto a low wall and let me kiss and groom his head for him!


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Kammie's right.....play hard to get....it works well and I've sat for hours in the past with various rescues just for the few seconds they come near you then back to square one, but it's worth it in the end...it's time consuming at first but with time and patience you'll have many rewards, 
Good luck xx


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks guys. 
In relation to one of the posts I have considered getting another bunny friend for Zebs in the past. I read that rabbits like the company of their own kind (provided not same sex male!) but after over 2 years alone would it now be too late to integrate Zebby with a lady friend? If Zebedee isn't that keen on people then that's fine but I worry about him spending day in day out alone incarcerated in a wooden box


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## spudsmummy (May 1, 2009)

as far as i am aware its never to late to get a bunny a bun mate. I would recomend contacting your local rescue center and seeing if they could do the bonding for you. Talk to them about it, they will be able to tell you if they have a bun suitable. 

also you could look on here: Rabbit Rehome - Adopt an unwanted bunny from a rescue centre
search for a bun local to you and go from there.

HTH 
Paula


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Baby British said:


> Thanks guys.
> In relation to one of the posts I have considered getting another bunny friend for Zebs in the past. I read that rabbits like the company of their own kind (provided not same sex male!) but after over 2 years alone would it now be too late to integrate Zebby with a lady friend? If Zebedee isn't that keen on people then that's fine but I worry about him spending day in day out alone incarcerated in a wooden box


I rescued a 4 year old bunny last year, she'd belonged to a little girl who got bored of her and was stuck in a tiny cage (which I now use as a litter tray) all on her own. She is now best friends with Rosie who I bonded her with after Rosie lost her partner. Its never to late to bond a rabbit as long as its done right and thats where the rescue would help you.

This is how they are now, Daisy is the little nethie who was stuck on her own for four years. Both rabbits are actually the same age despite being rescued at completely different times.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

One of the biggest causes of aggression in buns is boredom.

They need a minimum of 4 hours exercise every single day, regardless of weather.

How big is your hutch? What sort of exercise and stimulation/environmental enrichment does he get?


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> One of the biggest causes of aggression in buns is boredom.
> 
> They need a minimum of 4 hours exercise every single day, regardless of weather.
> 
> How big is your hutch? What sort of exercise and stimulation/environmental enrichment does he get?


The hutch is ok in size although it could be a bit bigger (the length is such to allow 3 full hops). The hutch will need replacing this year anyhow as Zebby as chewed off half the door frame 

I put boxes and cardboard tubes in the hutch and I hide treats in them to give him something to do.

Zebedee goes in his run a couple of times a week but this is difficult due to not being able to pick him up. I have to open up his hutch and run and then literally wait for him to hop across from one to the other! I'm considering purchasing a hutch that has a run attached.

I have just emailed my local animal recue to explain about Zebby and see if they think they can help with integrating him with a lady friend. I think your right about the boredom and he maybe just needs some lovin!


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Kammie said:


>


The bunny on the right is identical to Zebby (although zebs is more of a portly gent )


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Baby British said:


> The hutch is ok in size although it could be a bit bigger (the length is such to allow 3 full hops). The hutch will need replacing this year anyhow as Zebby as chewed off half the door frame
> 
> I put boxes and cardboard tubes in the hutch and I hide treats in them to give him something to do.
> 
> ...


A couple of times a week is not enough. Can you not use a cat carrier to herd him into and transport him over?

A pair of rabbits need a minimun of a 6ftx2ftx2ft hutch, with access to a minimum of 6ftx3ftx2ft run on a daily basis.

Rabbits are highly social, highly active animals and need to run around not hop.

I wouldnt even consider getting another rabbit until you've sorted out decent housing and a decent exercise routine. Otherwise you'll end up with two depressed and bored rabbits, rather than one.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Baby British said:


> The bunny on the right is identical to Zebby (although zebs is more of a portly gent )


Thats Rosie she was used as a breeding doe before I rescued her. The breeder I got her from said she wasn't for sale as she was agressive and going to be put to sleep the next day. This breeder knew nothing about rabbits and was in it for the money but when I got Rosie she was selling up and "getting rid" of all her rabbits. I insisted on taking Rosie despite her agression. Rosie was spayed the following week and has never shown any signs of agression since. Would love to see a pic of Zeb!


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> A couple of times a week is not enough. Can you not use a cat carrier to herd him into and transport him over?
> 
> A pair of rabbits need a minimun of a 6ftx2ftx2ft hutch, with access to a minimum of 6ftx3ftx2ft run on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


I've already had a butchers on ebay and there are some nice reasonably priced ones on there. Obviously if I did get another rabbit then I wouldn't have them both in the existing hutch as it would be blatantly too small. Like I said Zebbies current hutch is in need of replacing any how so it looks like he could be in for a house move very soon!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Baby British said:


> I've already had a butchers on ebay and there are some nice reasonably priced ones on there. Obviously if I did get another rabbit then I wouldn't have them both in the existing hutch as it would be blatantly too small. Like I said Zebbies current hutch is in need of replacing any how so it looks like he could be in for a house move very soon!


Even a single rabbit shouldnt be in a hutch less than 6ft in length. Its a basic welfare level set out by the RSPCA.

For well priced hutches try Hutches, Rabbit Hutches, Rabbit Runs, Dog Kennels, Cat Houses, Chicken Coops, - Happy Hutch Company they do some nice 6ft hutch and run combos.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Kammie said:


> Would love to see a pic of Zeb!


I'll try and take a pic of him in a bit. I did have some photos on the computer but am thinking I must have backed them up on a CD and deleted them (and put the CD somewhere incredibly sensible where I'll never find it again!)


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Baby British said:


> I've already had a butchers on ebay and there are some nice reasonably priced ones on there. Obviously if I did get another rabbit then I wouldn't have them both in the existing hutch as it would be blatantly too small. Like I said Zebbies current hutch is in need of replacing any how so it looks like he could be in for a house move very soon!


A thought for you as your finding it hard moving him from the hutch to the run. Most hutches with runs attached aren't that great to be honest. But how something like this instead? It would have loads of space for running around and big enough for you to go sit inside with him. This kind of thing is much better than a hutch and to get a decent hutch thats big enough with a run your looking at roughly the same price. To give you an idea for my two girls in the garden they are in an 8x6 shed, which on tuesday is having a 10ft run attached to the side of it with a door built into the shed. I'm doing this mainly because I can't let them free range anymore because of foxes but in an ideal situation a converted shed is the best option for a rabbit. So don't just limit yourself to a rabbit hutch.

TANALISED DOG KENNEL AND RUN 10 X 4 on eBay (end time 03-Feb-10 21:53:25 GMT)


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

I like the kennel idea but I just know the OH would have heart failure at the price.I've just been looking at these. What do you think?

Chicken Poultry coop,CAT Hen house,Rabbit Hutch 047AT on eBay (end time 23-Feb-10 19:11:35 GMT)

LARGE RABBIT GUINEA PIG FERRET HUTCH + HUGE UNDER RUN on eBay (end time 12-Feb-10 16:54:15 GMT)


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Baby British said:


> I like the kennel idea but I just know the OH would have heart failure at the price.I've just been looking at these. What do you think?
> 
> Chicken Poultry coop,CAT Hen house,Rabbit Hutch 047AT on eBay (end time 23-Feb-10 19:11:35 GMT)
> 
> LARGE RABBIT GUINEA PIG FERRET HUTCH + HUGE UNDER RUN on eBay (end time 12-Feb-10 16:54:15 GMT)


The second ones far too small, its only just over 3ft in length.

The 6ft version of this one would be much more suitable. Its £169.99 with free delivery.

Rabbit, Guinea Pig Hutch & Run Combo. Free Delivery on eBay (end time 03-Feb-10 10:18:53 GMT)


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> The second ones far too small, its only just over 3ft in length.
> 
> The 6ft version of this one would be much more suitable. Its £169.99 with free delivery.
> 
> Rabbit, Guinea Pig Hutch & Run Combo. Free Delivery on eBay (end time 03-Feb-10 10:18:53 GMT)


What did you think to the one on the first link?

I know it sounds awful but I'm trying to keep within a price range that allows the possibility of talking the OH round!


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Remember with the hutches that have runs underneath a lot of floor space is taken away from the hutch for the ramp to the run.

In all honesty you pay for what you get, a cheap hutch will be tiny and not last long where as a kennel/run or converted shed will last the rabbits whole life and give loads of space.

Whats your price range I'll see what I can find?

Not sure how far you can travel but how about this? Shame its local pickup but maybe renting a van is possible.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dog-Kennel-Ru...QQptZUK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs?hash=item414caba361

Or this, more expensive but its bigger.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Timber-Dog-Ke...QQptZUK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs?hash=item27aef8edef


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

I know it sounds awful but my budget right now is about £120  What with xmas and the fact that the OH is due to change jobs soon finances are a bit hit and miss.

I'm not to fussed about finding something to last a life time as it can always be replaced in the future (just not so close to the ass end of christmas with finances so up in the air!). I'm more concerned with finding something bigger size wise right now. I've just measured Zebs hutch and it is 4 1/2 ft in length :crying:


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Baby British said:


> I know it sounds awful but my budget right now is about £120  What with xmas and the fact that the OH is due to change jobs soon finances are a bit hit and miss.
> 
> I'm not to fussed about finding something to last a life time as it can always be replaced in the future (just not so close to the ass end of christmas with finances so up in the air!). I'm more concerned with finding something bigger size wise right now. I've just measured Zebs hutch and it is 4 1/2 ft in length :crying:


Have a look at the first link then its only £50 if your able to collect it. Will give bunny so much more room.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Kammie said:


> Have a look at the first link then its only £50 if your able to collect it. Will give bunny so much more room.


Yes I looked at that one. The trouble is that it is on bids and has only just been listed. It looks in really good nick so I can only imagine it will sell for heck of a lot more than £50


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Another thought then. Have you heard of the website myhammer.co.uk? You post building jobs you want done on there and people bid on your job for the lowest price which you then choose out of the offers you get. Its how I found someone to build my run as I phoned all the local people from the phonebook and no one could do it. I'm getting the 10ft by 6ft run built with the door built into the shed and wire laid on the ground with turf over the top for £200 including the materials to make it. The guy thats doing it is also from somewhere near Wales so he's travelling a long way and thats a decent price for what I want done. 

Maybe you could post something on there about building a large hutch and run giving the rough sizes you'd like and how you'd want it to look and see what offers you get, you can also put a budget price on to set the limit your willing to pay.

Its worth a try! The guy thats doing mine is called Rob Seaton so look out for him if you do put an ad.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

I will take a peek at the site now. Just found this on ebay as well what do you think? LARGE CHICKEN COOP HOUSE & RABBIT HUTCH CAGE COOP 002 on eBay (end time 19-Feb-10 09:06:52 GMT)


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

I had something similar when Daisy was still on her own and its not as big as it looks. Theres barely any ground space. Consider this can a rabbit do this in the run? If the answer is no then the run is too small. You have to be really picky with the hutch and run to get so they have as much room as possible. This video is a very happy rabbit (not one of my rabbits) but gives you an idea what much room a rabbit needs to really run and exercise.

YouTube - The REAL "Energizer Bunny"


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Kammie said:


> I had something similar when Daisy was still on her own and its not as big as it looks. Theres barely any ground space. Consider this can a rabbit do this in the run? If the answer is no then the run is too small. You have to be really picky with the hutch and run to get so they have as much room as possible. This video is a very happy rabbit (not one of my rabbits) but gives you an idea what much room a rabbit needs to really run and exercise.
> 
> YouTube - The REAL "Energizer Bunny"


lol I draw the line at getting Zebby his own house! I see what you mean though. I've posted a job on myhammer (using the dimensions that Nonnie gave as the minimum measurements) so I'll wait and see what comes in


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Baby British said:


> lol I draw the line at getting Zebby his own house! I see what you mean though. I've posted a job on myhammer (using the dimensions that Nonnie gave as the minimum measurements) so I'll wait and see what comes in


Don't worry I didn't mean get him his own house lol but thats just an idea of how they can run. Where he's running on the double bed you see he can't really run as well as on the floor, so think of the size of a double bed to give an idea of sizes as the minimum.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

your local rescue should be able to put you in touch with someone who makes hutches or runs. The RSPCA centres are meant to have good quailty 6ft hutches for £99 so you can also contact them. both may have an old set up that you could buy from them. Failing that if you cant afford the space, time, money and a friend for him then I would consider giving him to a rescue.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Just to update I have just purchased this one off ebay New 6 x 2 Pet Rabbit Ferret Hutch & Run Lge Bunny Cage on eBay (end time 06-Feb-10 14:21:49 GMT)
I know it's not quite a shed but for now atleast it has to be better than his current living quarters.

I did have a look on the RSPCA website but couldn't find out any info on there rabbit hutches. I wouldn't put Zebby in a rescue unless it was an absolute last resort. Aside from his hutch being too small (I wasn't aware of the sizing guidelines - why on earth are companies allowed to make hutches smaller than these????) he is well fed and cared for. I'm still waiting to hear back from the rescue about the possibility of a lady friend for him but that'll be the next step.

Thanks everyone for all the help and advice. I'm about to head off now and take some pictures of the grumpy (but hopefully soon to be happy!) one which I will post for you later :smile5:


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

We've all had to learn at some point, not everyone is given perfect information when buying a new pet whether its a rabbit, dog or whatever. Its obvious you care about Zebedee to have come here asking for advice.


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## spudsmummy (May 1, 2009)

Well done for finding out more info for you bun, its shows how much you care 
I am New to bun owning and this site has been a gr8 help. 

The hutch is going to be a good start, the pet carrier idea is good too as he should still be alowed to go in his run too. 

Hope you hear back from the rescue soon 

Paula


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## umber (Feb 15, 2009)

Its nice to see someone who cares so much for their bunny! You obviously do!

Its true about the hutches though you can get some awful advice especially from people who try and sell them. Before I came here I had already purchased my hutch which Im ashamed to say was far too small for my buns but I had wrongly been told it was more than adequate!

However like yourself after joining here and discovering how much room bunnies actually need I too upgraded my buns small hutch to a much bigger and more spacious one!

Keep coming here you will meet some great people and get fantastic advice too!


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Another quick update...... I've just had an email from an animal rescue to say that they have the perfect female for Zebby - a black and white lion head female called Blossom, a 1 year old who just lurves other rabbits! I'm waiting to hear back from them to see if they can take Zebs for a week or so to attempt to socialize them. 

Fingers crossed all round.....exciting times x


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Sounds like you really care about him  I would say a friend and a bigger hutch will do him good 
Lionheads are lovely, they tend to like being fussed and are very well behaved 

My nethies are not really handleable(is that a word!) but we get by. When they had the old run, it was seperate from the hutch, so they had to be moved into it, so I taught them to run between the 2. Using "Run" to get them there, and "Hutch" to get them back! I still use "Hutch" for when the free range around the garden! 
They just dont like being fussed, so I dont push it, they are happy enough running about, not sitting moping, and they have Rascal who I hope will set them a good example as he will now come to take treats and is much better for handling!

Now we need pictures!

*Heidi*


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Threads like this are why forums are so important, really really lovely to read through and i cant add anymore to the fantastic advice you have already been given.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Just to update again and say that I'm taking Zebedee to meet Blossom at the resue centre tomorrow evening. I've get everything crossed that they get along because I've quite warmed to the idea of getting another wabbit. I think a good woman to sort him out is exactly what Zebby needs - I just hope he realizes it!


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## spudsmummy (May 1, 2009)

aww bless them, hope everything goes ok and they get on well


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Baby British said:


> Just to update again and say that I'm taking Zebedee to meet Blossom at the resue centre tomorrow evening. I've get everything crossed that they get along because I've quite warmed to the idea of getting another wabbit. *I think a good woman to sort him out is exactly what Zebby needs *- I just hope he realizes it!


Thats all any male needs!

Hope all goes well for tomorrow evening, would love to see pics of her!


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Baby British said:


> I know it sounds awful but my budget right now is about £120  What with xmas and the fact that the OH is due to change jobs soon finances are a bit hit and miss.
> 
> I'm not to fussed about finding something to last a life time as it can always be replaced in the future (just not so close to the ass end of christmas with finances so up in the air!). I'm more concerned with finding something bigger size wise right now. I've just measured Zebs hutch and it is 4 1/2 ft in length :crying:


£120 was my budget too...I just bought this and it arrived yesterday...
GIANT 6FT Double Rabbit guinea pig Ferret hutch-RUN 101 on eBay (end time 09-Feb-10 13:43:22 GMT)
(She does have bid versions, I tried bidding and won it for £107.99, so it would be worth bidding if you don't mind waiting for the auction to end! It is 6ft, and you could attach a bigger run to the bottom I reckon if needed!

She also has single versions if you want a bit cheaper...
eBay Seller: susan7873: 6ft, Rabbits items on eBay.co.uk

Rosie is also a grumpy bunny, not through me not trying. She hates other rabbits, but does seem to get on well with GP's. I do hope a female will work with your boy  maybe a bigger hutch will improve his mood too. I am hoping this will be the case for Rosie.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

thats great  hope it all goes well!!!

*Heidi*


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

happysaz133 said:


> £120 was my budget too...I just bought this and it arrived yesterday...
> GIANT 6FT Double Rabbit guinea pig Ferret hutch-RUN 101 on eBay (end time 09-Feb-10 13:43:22 GMT)
> (She does have bid versions, I tried bidding and won it for £107.99, so it would be worth bidding if you don't mind waiting for the auction to end! It is 6ft, and you could attach a bigger run to the bottom I reckon if needed!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links. I bought a this hutch yesterday on ebay for £141.75 New 6 x 2 Pet Rabbit Ferret Hutch & Run Lge Bunny Cage on eBay (end time 06-Feb-10 14:21:49 GMT) A bit over budget granted but worth it if it cheers Zebby up as a result!


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Well Zebedee's new hutch just arrived in 4 HUGE boxes! The courier bought in the first one and said 'I dunno whats in these love but there's 4 of em this size'
My response to which was 'you think that's bad you wanna see the size of the rabbit!' 

It's looking as though the OH will have a little project tonight when he gets back from work. Nevermind - keeps him out of trouble 

I will post some pics of Zebby in his new home (with his new lady friend?) as soon as I can x


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## Sarah+Hammies (Jul 20, 2009)

Baby British said:


> Well Zebedee's new hutch just arrived in 4 HUGE boxes! The courier bought in the first one and said 'I dunno whats in these love but there's 4 of em this size'
> My response to which was 'you think that's bad you wanna see the size of the rabbit!'
> 
> It's looking as though the OH will have a little project tonight when he gets back from work. Nevermind - keeps him out of trouble
> ...


:laugh: men are always best kept busy - well my hubby is anyway  i cant wait for the pics of Zebedee in his new home


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## umber (Feb 15, 2009)

ahhhh wow cant wait to see Zebee in his new home and with his new wifey! Well Done You!


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

How exciting!!!! Can't wait for piccies!!!


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