# Anyone doing Veganuary?



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

https://veganuary.com/

My FB is now filling up with Veganuary posts. I'm already as vegan as I'm going to get, I won't stop supporting our local beekeepers and buy their honey, and I'm sure there are other areas I fall short, but I am inspired to continue to eat and consume as cruelty-free as I can.

So no Veganuary for me or maybe continued Veganuary? 
However I am totally inspired by some of these folks I see who manage to live mostly waste-free for months, or years. That's my next challenge to myself, see how much waste I can reduce.

What are your "do better" goals?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I made this collage to represent my aims/goals for 2019.









I am seriously considering veganuary as I eat a few days a week vegetarian/vegan.
But it will be a challenge as OH doesn't believe it's a proper dinner without meat.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

I’ve moved over to reusable make up remover pads, and I used brown paper and natural/reusable tags and decorations this year.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

OH and I have recently gone vegetarian so will be keeping that up. I'm also a lot more conscious about plastic so am trying to reduce that. Was also considering buying reusable sanitary products.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I don’t make any resolutions. One can change at any time of the year. I’ll keep doing as I’ve always done which is shop local, to keep food miles down and be aware of the environment in all I do and avoid supermarkets. And carry on with many years of vegetarianism...


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Fleur said:


> I made this collage to represent my aims/goals for 2019.
> View attachment 385886
> 
> 
> ...


That's really cool @Fleur what a great idea


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> Was also considering buying reusable sanitary products.


That's a huge one, and a big savings financially too to go reusable. I do recommend it  There are SO many options these days too!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nope. Just been staying at a Vegan place and the air miles and food waste were ridiculous


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> Nope. Just been staying at a Vegan place and the air miles and food waste were ridiculous


You know you can be vegan without wasting food and racking up air miles right?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

@O2.0 
My daughter eats vegan/plantbased but like you is happy to consume locally sourced honey if she knows about how they work their hives etc.
She had a big internal debate as a friend of hers keeps chicken - very well looked after rescue birds- who asked if she could make my daughter a cake using her chickens eggs. My daughter decided she had no ethical issue with her friend keeping the chickens but couldn't bring herself to eat the eggs.

I've been looking at bees wax wraps but cant seem to find any that I can trace the bees wax used and I'm unsure about the pine resin - so if anyone can advise I'd be grateful


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Fleur said:


> My daughter decided she had no ethical issue with her friend keeping the chickens but couldn't bring herself to eat the eggs.


I don't have an ethical issue with chickens like that either. Not sure what I would do about the cake... If someone is offering to make you something in that spirit of kindness, it's hard for me to say no, though I prefer not to eat the eggs (and probably butter) in the cake. 
Fortunately for me I have two garbage disposals masquerading as teens here in the house who would happily eat the cake, so I would probably take it, thank her, and feed it to the kids LOL!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> I don't have an ethical issue with chickens like that either. Not sure what I would do about the cake... If someone is offering to make you something in that spirit of kindness, it's hard for me to say no, though I prefer not to eat the eggs (and probably butter) in the cake.
> Fortunately for me I have two garbage disposals masquerading as teens here in the house who would happily eat the cake, so I would probably take it, thank her, and feed it to the kids LOL!


She doesn't yet have that luxury as baby is only 3 months. LOL.
I should of said the cake would of been made with vegetable oil spread.
And luckily the lady was not at all offended and has since made her various yummy vegan treats.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Fleur said:


> @O2.0
> My daughter eats vegan/plantbased but like you is happy to consume locally sourced honey if she knows about how they work their hives etc.
> She had a big internal debate as a friend of hers keeps chicken - very well looked after rescue birds- who asked if she could make my daughter a cake using her chickens eggs. My daughter decided she had no ethical issue with her friend keeping the chickens but couldn't bring herself to eat the eggs.
> 
> I've been looking at bees wax wraps but cant seem to find any that I can trace the bees wax used and I'm unsure about the pine resin - so if anyone can advise I'd be grateful


I know the person who runs BeeBee Wraps who are based in Cambridge, I know from her talks that sustainability is important. Do contact them with any specific questions, they'd be happy to help. I used this all the time and it's reduced my plastic waste significantly.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> I know the person who runs BeeBee Wraps who are based in Cambridge, I know from her talks that sustainability is important. Do contact them with any specific questions, they'd be happy to help. I used this all the time and it's reduced my plastic waste significantly.


Thank you I'll look them up


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## Puddy2shoes (May 10, 2018)

Sairy said:


> OH and I have recently gone vegetarian so will be keeping that up. I'm also a lot more conscious about plastic so am trying to reduce that. Was also considering buying reusable sanitary products.


Hi Sairy, sanitary products, how relieved I was in my forty's when nature stepped in and allowed me not to need them anymore, but the years rolled on and my bladder became increasingly defiant and argumentative (we've never really got along very well even in my younger days), so it's hello again sanitary products, how would I manage to have a little laugh,cough or sneeze without you....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think this is a great idea as it does seem to make people consider what they are eating a bit more. I think we should always be striving to make better choices, even if they are small they are still beneficial.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

well, Im just going to continue being vegan!
Going to make more effort to be whole food plant based though this year. Sadly going vegan didnt magically stop me being a yo yo dieter and emotional eater so I still eat too much junk.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> well, Im just going to continue being vegan!
> Going to make more effort to be whole food plant based though this year. Sadly going vegan didnt magically stop me being a yo yo dieter and emotional eater so I still eat too much junk.


Have you ever checked out some of Chef AJ's talks? She seems like the guru of WFPB for food addiction. I like her energy and personality too


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I'm going to try I've fallen of the wagon with cheese a few times and been a bit lazy with take away instead cooking plant based foods since we lost lily. Not just for January would like it to be a lifestyle change.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

As I'm already vegan I've decided to do dry January .... giving up booze is far more difficult for me than any food! I've not drank much over the Christmas period anyway due to being ill so am going to give it up completely for the month as it can only be beneficial for me


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> As I'm already vegan I've decided to do dry January .... giving up booze is far more difficult for me than any food! I've not drank much over the Christmas period anyway due to being ill so am going to give it up completely for the month as it can only be beneficial for me


I did dry Jan last years and didn't touch a drop till April I rarely drink anyway but do like the odd glass with dinner. Good luck I feel good for not drinking much training improves and sleep.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> I did dry Jan last years and didn't touch a drop till April I rarely drink anyway but do like the odd glass with dinner. Good luck I feel good for not drinking much training improves and sleep.


Oh, see I love my G&T's so it will be very difficult for me! I probably drink every day, not excessively anymore but I will still have one drink. The only time I didn't drink was for a couple of months when my blood pressure was high but it didn't lower my readings ... instead it went up!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh, see I love my G&T's so it will be very difficult for me! I probably drink every day, not excessively anymore but I will still have one drink. The only time I didn't drink was for a couple of months when my blood pressure was high but it didn't lower my readings ... instead it went up!


Good luck with it I do think sometimes we need a treat. I used to love my wine years ago but don't really miss it I was happy to be trotting around this morning no hangover.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Good luck to everyone striving to do better


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2019)

I have decided I am going to do Veganuary! Starting next Tuesday because I’ve got a whole load of things going on before then. Although I’m vegetarian, I’ve always found veganism a bit daunting, but just having to do it for 3 weeks makes it more achievable in my head. Of course I hope I continue with it into February, but one step at a time!

Can anyone recommend some good documentaries to help with motivation? I’ve seen a few already (the forks and knives one, and a couple of others that I can’t recall off the top of my head). Preferably not toooo upsetting though!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

One of my goals is zero food waste so I will be eating all the meat and dairy products I have and only buying in vegan options for the rest of the month.
Today I had overnight oats made with oat milk and alpro yogurt.
Bean chilli.
Fruit
But I also had cheese and biscuits along with cake.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> I have decided I am going to do Veganuary! Starting next Tuesday because I've got a whole load of things going on before then. Although I'm vegetarian, I've always found veganism a bit daunting, but just having to do it for 3 weeks makes it more achievable in my head. Of course I hope I continue with it into February, but one step at a time!
> 
> Can anyone recommend some good documentaries to help with motivation? I've seen a few already (the forks and knives one, and a couple of others that I can't recall off the top of my head). Preferably not toooo upsetting though!


I found "What the Health" (still on Netflix I believe) very motivating, and not too preachy or upsetting. The documentary site has tons of links to back up their claims so it's a good place to read up if you want to do that. I find that for me, the more I research and find out on my own (as opposed to being told 'do this, don't do this') the more I find the internal motivation to make changes.

Don't know if you do podcasts, I listen to them while cleaning house, walking the dog, folding laundry... Anyway, the one that really made an impact on me was Neil Barnard's podcast on dairy. I didn't find him overly pushy, though he definitely has an agenda. 
This is one:
https://www.richroll.com/podcast/neal-barnard-2/

And another (he basically says the same thing but a different format of podcast)
https://www.pcrm.org/news/exam-room-podcast/cheese-trap


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> I found "What the Health" (still on Netflix I believe) very motivating, and not too preachy or upsetting. The documentary site has tons of links to back up their claims so it's a good place to read up if you want to do that. I find that for me, the more I research and find out on my own (as opposed to being told 'do this, don't do this') the more I find the internal motivation to make changes.
> 
> Don't know if you do podcasts, I listen to them while cleaning house, walking the dog, folding laundry... Anyway, the one that really made an impact on me was Neil Barnard's podcast on dairy. I didn't find him overly pushy, though he definitely has an agenda.
> This is one:
> ...


Ah yes What the Health is one I've seen, but might watch it again. I've read (most of) The Pleasure Trap and really like Neil Barnard's style so I'll definitely listen to the podcasts, thanks


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Shopping done meal plans 

Veg soup 
Vegan bolognaise with puy lentils 
Veg curry 
Rice and veg 
Vegan chilli and wedges 
Veg pasta


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> Shopping done meal plans
> 
> Veg soup
> Vegan bolognaise with puy lentils
> ...


Sounds yum!

It is currently WAY too hot here to do anything resembling cooking so it's currently variations on a salad!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

McKenzie said:


> Sounds yum!
> 
> It is currently WAY too hot here to do anything resembling cooking so it's currently variations on a salad!


Minus 2 here at the moment stood in the garden saying 'u go wee wees ' whilst Loki runs around not doing wee wees


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

McKenzie said:


> Sounds yum!
> 
> It is currently WAY too hot here to do anything resembling cooking so it's currently variations on a salad!


I love a good salad! Normally not vegan for me though, as I often have something like tuna/chicken/feta on there.

Saw a salad with peaches on an IG photo yesterday though, and that intrigued me greatly!


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2019)

Kimmikins said:


> I love a good salad! Normally not vegan for me though, as I often have something like tuna/chicken/feta on there.
> 
> Saw a salad with peaches on an IG photo yesterday though, and that intrigued me greatly!


My current favourite is strawberry, black beans and kumera (sweet potato) - providing I can be bothered cooking the kumera!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Apparently, Greggs have launched a vegan “sausage” roll- yum! 

My carnivore son had one and said it tasted pretty good.

Every little helps!


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

McKenzie said:


> My current favourite is strawberry, black beans and kumera (sweet potato) - providing I can be bothered cooking the kumera!


That sounds amazing!


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

Veganism seems a bit too extreme for me, so I'm just going to carry on not eating meat or meat products and as I don't eat many eggs anyway, they'll probably go too. I'm considering giving up dairy, but need to find a milk replacement that's good in tea and doesn't cost too much! 

i do like a nice salad when it's warm but at the moment it's variations on thick chunky soups to keep the cold out!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Im already vegan but Im trying to get into the whole food thing more this year. No point getting healthy by cutting out animal products then ruining it with loads of junk food!


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

My OH is doing veganuary, I'm going veg-ish! I gave up meat back in April and significantly reduced my dairy intake. I'm now trying to go fully dairy free. I will still eat eggs just cut down.
We're already making changes in other areas, like toiletries and cleaning products and reducing waste. Last year we also got a compost bin and a water butt. 
Never going to be perfect but I think it's important to try and every little helps.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Colette said:


> Never going to be perfect but I think it's important to try and every little helps.


Absolutely. We're all going to do better in some areas, worse in others, but as long as we are all trying in whatever way we can, it's all positive


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I have to admit I'm not doing Veganuary partly because with the cold and snow on the ground it's difficult to get out. And partly because I can't read the labels on a lot of the packets and tins because they're written in Polish, German or Slovakian which I don't understand.

What I'm tying to do is cut out cheese, eggs and cream completely, not that I have them often, and cut down on the oil I use for cooking, The two things at the moment I don't think I can manage with out are yoghourt (can't stand the Alpro ones) and milk chocolate (hate dark chocolate), I'm also trying to eat more fruit although at the moment there's not much choice in the shops so I'll have to leave it till spring/summer when all the fruit I like is in season

Saw this on CNN and thought it interesting!

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/05/opinions/vegans-hatred-gbr-intl/index.html


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> Saw this on CNN and thought it interesting!
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/05/opinions/vegans-hatred-gbr-intl/index.html


There was a similar article recently - referencing the Waitrose email scandal-ish thing.

I liked the "myths" section, I always do a little "huh?" frown at the notion that eating vegan/vegetarian is expensive. I grew up with the mentality that meat is a luxury. Beans and rice is poor man's food. I remember being super tight with money when I was a struggling student, and cheese was way to expensive to waste money on, again, I ate beans, rice, pasta, potatoes.... Even yogurt was a luxury to me. 
So it's always weird to me when people look at me eating a bowl of beans and rice or sweet potatoes and call it hipster (read - someone who can afford a $5 starbucks coffee on a regular basis) food. Uh, no, this is peasant food. Which also happens to be delicious and healthy, but it sure ain't snob rich folk food!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...Rice-Protein-Market-Europe-2018-2023---Rising
"The market of rice protein in the U.K. is mostly driven by increasing young population intending to lead healthy lifestyle and interested in building strong muscles. Being one of the leading economy in the Europe, the U.K. has highly developed technology for rice protein processing."

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasa-led-study-solves-a-methane-puzzle
"Methane emissions have been rising sharply since 2006. Different research teams have produced viable estimates for two known sources of the increase: emissions from the oil and gas industry, and microbial production in wet tropical environments like marshes and rice paddies. But when these estimates were added to estimates of other sources, the sum was considerably more than the observed increase. In fact, each new estimate was large enough to explain the whole increase by itself."


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Weirdly the backlash towards veganism and plant based eating actually makes me think of an extinction burst in dog training! Its like people really cant argue with the scientific evidence of climate change and the health benefits (or the cruelty involved in farming) and so they dig their heels in and just attack it instead.
Going vegan isnt expensive, doesnt restrict your eating (you find you replace your meat and dairy with twice as much plant food!) and isnt that difficult. If I can do it as a tubby emotional eater with zero self control Im pretty sure anybody could do it!LOL


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Some great info on the Bosh YouTube channel for anyone thinking of giving it a go or wanting some inspiration for meal ideas (you might want to tweak some of their recipes if you are doing it for health reasons as they do tend to use rather a lot of oil).






A week by week menu






or in PDF form

https://s3.amazonaws.com/kajabi-sto...0eby3k_BOSH_VEGANUARY_MEAL_PLANNER-WEEK_1.pdf


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Good to see you back @rottiepointerhouse  x

I've been following Chris Packham (OBE's) often amusing forray into veganism.

Day 1)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080188581078073345
2)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080419102760550400
3)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080868537412083712
4)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1081116566383747072
5)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1081645679959855104
6)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1081930898227032064
7)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1082349117504962561


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Good to see you back @rottiepointerhouse  x
> 
> I've been following Chris Packham (OBE's) often amusing forray into veganism.
> 
> ...


Thanks Noushka, I''ve been trawling through the plant based thread looking for information I've posted in the past and found myself posting a few times  Not sure how back I will be but I'm always happy to help anyone looking to try out vegetarian/vegan or improve health in general. Hope you are well. I heard Chris Packham was going to try going vegan but I'm not on twitter so can't access the links. I will have a look and see if I can find him on Instagram.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thanks Noushka, I''ve been trawling through the plant based thread looking for information I've posted in the past and found myself posting a few times  Not sure how back I will be but I'm always happy to help anyone looking to try out vegetarian/vegan or improve health in general. Hope you are well. I heard Chris Packham was going to try going vegan but I'm not on twitter so can't access the links. I will have a look and see if I can find him on Instagram.


Nice one for still taking the time to help people x I'm fine thank you - hope you & yours are keeping well & wishing you a very happy New Year too.

I didn't realise you had to join twitter to access the links. I hope he has posted on instagram then, hopefully you we be able to follow his progress on there & also see Scratchy take the cheese test - that did make me laugh


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Nice one for still taking the time to help people x I'm fine thank you - hope you & yours are keeping well & wishing you a very happy New Year too.
> 
> I didn't realise you had to join twitter to access the links. I hope he has posted on instagram then, hopefully you we be able to follow his progress on there & also see Scratchy take the cheese test - that did make me laugh


I didn't think you had to either but I can't access those links although perhaps there is a problem with twitter this morning - I will try again later. I've found him on Instagram but he isn't posting about his vegan journey on there.

Came across this about plant based milks and their effect on the environment if anyone is interested

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

We aren't doing veganuary but we are having 2-3 night time meals a week now without meat. Thanks for posting the recipe ideas above @rottiepointerhouse


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I didn't think you had to either but I can't access those links although perhaps there is a problem with twitter this morning - I will try again later. I've found him on Instagram but he isn't posting about his vegan journey on there.
> 
> Came across this about plant based milks and their effect on the environment if anyone is interested
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042


That link is really handy. Shows how terrible dairy is for our environment. My personal preference is oat milk. Good to its one of the most ethical x


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

AlexPed2393 said:


> We aren't doing veganuary but we are having 2-3 night time meals a week now without meat. Thanks for posting the recipe ideas above @rottiepointerhouse


You are welcome. Bosh have a brilliant website too with quick video demonstrations of all their recipes. I've made quite a few of theirs and they are all delicious and the sort of thing I would serve if I had non vegans to cater for.

https://www.bosh.tv/

Also check out The Happy Pear - they are very inspirational Irish twin brothers who are really into their vegan cooking, exercise (they swim in the sea every morning whatever the weather and do yoga etc) and community. If you are on Instagram check them out.

https://thehappypear.ie/recipe/



noushka05 said:


> That link is really handy. Shows how terrible dairy is for our environment. My personal preference is oat milk. Good to its one of the most ethical x


I use oat milk too so quite happy with its scores.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm sitting here reading this sipping my coffee with cashew milk  
I've become such a cashew milk snob, everything else tastes watery to me now. 3/4 cups of cashews, 3 cups water, blend in the vitamix, done. I love the stuff. It's really nice in oatmeal too.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Puddy2shoes said:


> Hi Sairy, sanitary products, how relieved I was in my forty's when nature stepped in and allowed me not to need them anymore, but the years rolled on and my bladder became increasingly defiant and argumentative (we've never really got along very well even in my younger days), so it's hello again sanitary products, how would I manage to have a little laugh,cough or sneeze without you....


I feel your pain ! Reusable pantie liners are wonderful.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Good to see you back @rottiepointerhouse  x
> 
> I've been following Chris Packham (OBE's) often amusing forray into veganism.
> 
> ...


He's posting on Facebook about it too and I've been following him on there


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Bosh have a brilliant website too with quick video demonstrations of all their recipes. I've made quite a few of theirs and they are all delicious and the sort of thing I would serve if I had non vegans to cater for.


Yes, I find their recipes really easy to follow and adapt so my own preferences. They're also usually super quick to whip up when you don't have a whole lot of time. 
Their spinach & peas "pesto" is a staple meal in this house:
https://www.bosh.tv/recipes/peasta

And their hummus pasta too which I make with mushrooms and other veggies added in. 
https://www.bosh.tv/recipes/hummus-pasta

I get good ideas from the Buddhist Chef too 
https://www.thebuddhistchef.com/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/greggs-launch-vegan-sausage-1-800-stores-demand-skyrockets

:Woot Not the sort of food I eat but am delighted to hear that Greggs are now going to stock the controversial vegan sausage roll in all of their stores due to demand.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/greggs-launch-vegan-sausage-1-800-stores-demand-skyrockets
> 
> :Woot Not the sort of food I eat but am delighted to hear that Greggs are now going to stock the controversial vegan sausage roll in all of their stores due to demand.


Anything that makes being vegan more normal and less 'extreme' is a good thing I think.... some people who are thinking about it giving up animal products might see all these supermarkets, restaurants (and Greggs) having more vegan options and it might just make them take that step 

Of course you can't eat vegan sausages rolls everyday but it shows that you can still 'treat' yourself or go out for meals with friends, family and there are still options!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I’m also another lover of the BOSH cookbook, I bought it before Christmas when it was on half price and everything we’ve made has been yummy


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Teddy-dog said:


> I'm also another lover of the BOSH cookbook, I bought it before Christmas when it was on half price and everything we've made has been yummy


I've got their new book on advance order already  Its supposed to be a bit more healthy which will be good as I do have to tweak most of their recipes. I'm planning on making this tomorrow

https://www.bosh.tv/recipes/nice-spice-rice


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've got their new book on advance order already  Its supposed to be a bit more healthy which will be good as I do have to tweak most of their recipes. I'm planning on making this tomorrow
> 
> https://www.bosh.tv/recipes/nice-spice-rice


Ooh I might have to get their new one too then! We try to keep the meals as a treat or, as you say, tweak a little to make a bit more healthy. 
That looks lovely


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I thought Chris Packham gave Piers Morgan a good run for his money this morning. He is going to be a great asset to the vegan movement if he manages to stick with it  Interesting suggestion to have photographs on animal products showing the type of conditions they have been reared in.


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2019)

I’ve just done one whole week without dairy! That’s huge for me because, while I gave up cows milk and butter a long time ago, I was practically raised on cheese and ate so many products that had dairy in them. I did slip up once and had half a cookie at a cafe, but that’s all!

I have only managed to stay on track because I really want to see if cutting out dairy makes a difference to a medical issue I have. I have to admit the thought of never eating pizza or chocolate again is pretty hard to handle! But I’m hoping that in time I won’t find it such an issue.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I thought Chris Packham gave Piers Morgan a good run for his money this morning. He is going to be a great asset to the vegan movement if he manages to stick with it  Interesting suggestion to have photographs on animal products showing the type of conditions they have been reared in.


I find Piers Morgan so hard to watch! But I think Chris did a good job and didn't let anyone shout him down. I really hope he sticks to it.
Not really sure what the point of the chef was there he didn't really get to say much....

I think it's odd when people say vegans (or anyone trying to live a more ethical life really) are hypocritical because of XYZ, most are trying to live an ethical life. It's very hard to avoid everything so does that mean we shouldn't bother?
Like the palm oil debate... yes it's in a lot of vegan products (but you don't have to eat processed?) but it's in a load of other common products too. So how many people who preach a vegan is a hyprocrite because they might eat something with palm oil in actively check everything they buy for palm oil too? Probably some do but I don't think every one. I hate this attitude that people have to fail at things and you have to 'win' by pointing out what someone else is doing 'wrong' or 'not quite right'.

Sorry! Derailed a bit there haha.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

McKenzie said:


> I've just done one whole week without dairy! That's huge for me because, while I gave up cows milk and butter a long time ago, I was practically raised on cheese and ate so many products that had dairy in them. I did slip up once and had half a cookie at a cafe, but that's all!
> 
> I have only managed to stay on track because I really want to see if cutting out dairy makes a difference to a medical issue I have. I have to admit the thought of never eating pizza or chocolate again is pretty hard to handle! But I'm hoping that in time I won't find it such an issue.


Well done  I thought I'd find giving up cheese hard but I haven't really missed it.

You don't have to give up pizza or chocolate either! A lot of dark chocolate doesn't have diary and you can get specific diary free milk chocolate too. 
You can have a cheeseless pizza or have one with vegan cheese. Ok so the vegan cheese can take a bit of getting used to (its best if you wait a while after eating actual cheese as it won't taste like actual cheese) but I've had a couple of vegan pizzas in resturants and they've been nice


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2019)

Teddy-dog said:


> Well done  I thought I'd find giving up cheese hard but I haven't really missed it.
> 
> You don't have to give up pizza or chocolate either! A lot of dark chocolate doesn't have diary and you can get specific diary free milk chocolate too.
> You can have a cheeseless pizza or have one with vegan cheese. Ok so the vegan cheese can take a bit of getting used to (its best if you wait a while after eating actual cheese as it won't taste like actual cheese) but I've had a couple of vegan pizzas in resturants and they've been nice


Oh that good to know about chocolate, I just assumed they all had dairy in them. Will have to have a look to see what I can find.

Unfortunately the best thing about pizza is the huge amount of cheese!  But I'm sure in time I'll forget. I tried vegan cheese once and it was foul!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

McKenzie said:


> Oh that good to know about chocolate, I just assumed they all had dairy in them. Will have to have a look to see what I can find.
> 
> Unfortunately the best thing about pizza is the huge amount of cheese!  But I'm sure in time I'll forget. I tried vegan cheese once and it was foul!


Yes some of them aren't great! There are lots of different brands of vegan cheese coming out so it can be worth trying a few and seeing. Tbh I don't buy it in the house but I do have it on a pizza when we go out. The one that I like the best isn't sold in supermarkets so I just have it when we go to Zizzis! 
I've found that instead of a really cheesey pizza I now enjoy really tomatoey instead. When OH fancies a takeaway pizza we get a garlic bread (obviously I checked they do vegan bases first ) with tomato sauce and I love that it's so tomatoey


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I thought Chris Packham gave Piers Morgan a good run for his money this morning. He is going to be a great asset to the vegan movement if he manages to stick with it  Interesting suggestion to have photographs on animal products showing the type of conditions they have been reared in.


Oh geez I can't watch Piers Morgan, he's awful!! "Vegan Storm Troopers"? What on earth is he on about? And the mind-numbingly stupid "you don't eat milk, meat or bread, what do you eat" question that even his co-host had to pull him up on. Ugh...

And right after Chris Packham says our disconnect from food leads to all sorts of problems including a lack of sympathy for farmers and what the work of farming entails, the chef - son of a farmer - jumps all over him saying he (Chris) was attacking him. What the heck? And milk is part of evolution? Tell that to Eastern Asia where not only is milk and cheese rarely consumed, but most east Asians are lactose intolerant.

I'm so over the "debate" about veganism. If you want to do it, awesome, I'm happy to be a resource. If you want to just cut back, also awesome, if you don't give a shit about any of it, fine too. Just don't ask me to debate my food choices. I'll answer questions, I'll show you the science, I'll talk about my own experiences, but at the end of the day everyone makes their own choice. So why is it so hard when some of us choose to not eat meat or dairy?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> Oh geez I can't watch Piers Morgan, he's awful!! "Vegan Storm Troopers"? What on earth is he on about? And the mind-numbingly stupid "you don't eat milk, meat or bread, what do you eat" question that even his co-host had to pull him up on. Ugh...


He is a pathetic excuse for a human being isnt he?? And pulling out the whole 'insects are people too!' argument!?
In fact the whole crux of his argument seemed to be that because you cant save _all_ the animals and _all_ the environment you just shouldnt bother trying to save any!? moron....:Shifty

Glad to hear veganuary is going well for folks! I used to be a big cheese lover too but TBH after a while the vegan ones start to taste just as good as dairy cheese, plus because it doesnt have the addictive qualities of cow cheese you really dont fancy it as much either.
As for chocolate I think most dark chocolate is vegan and the fact you cant just grab a bar whenever makes you abit more discerning about treating yourself to choccy! (my fav is Montezuma organic dark chocolate with orange and geranium. yum).


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> He is a pathetic excuse for a human being isnt he?? And pulling out the whole 'insects are people too!' argument!?
> In fact the whole crux of his argument seemed to be that because you cant save _all_ the animals and _all_ the environment you just shouldnt bother trying to save any!? moron....:Shifty


He is exactly the kind of person I don't bother discussing diet with. He's not interested in how I eat, he's just looking for "gotcha" moments to call people out on.

I feel bad not commenting on the cheese thing. When I gave up dairy I actually didn't set out to give it up entirely, I just thought I would cut back, but still allow myself some indulgences. And for a while that's exactly what I did. Turned out though that once I stopped eating cheese I didn't want cheese. It's actually kind of gross to me now 
Ice cream even tastes funny to me now so I just don't eat it. 
I *really* don't like vegan cheese at all, but I do make a few "cheesy" sauces with cashews, garbanzos, and nutritional yeast that I love.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> He is exactly the kind of person I don't bother discussing diet with. He's not interested in how I eat, he's just looking for "gotcha" moments to call people out on.
> 
> I feel bad not commenting on the cheese thing. When I gave up dairy I actually didn't set out to give it up entirely, I just thought I would cut back, but still allow myself some indulgences. And for a while that's exactly what I did. Turned out though that once I stopped eating cheese I didn't want cheese. It's actually kind of gross to me now
> Ice cream even tastes funny to me now so I just don't eat it.
> I *really* don't like vegan cheese at all, but I do make a few "cheesy" sauces with cashews, garbanzos, and nutritional yeast that I love.


Milk tastes funny to me now if someone puts it in my tea it tastes sour. M & S have started a good vegan range for rush days.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> He is a pathetic excuse for a human being isnt he?? And pulling out the whole 'insects are people too!' argument!?
> In fact the whole crux of his argument seemed to be that because you cant save _all_ the animals and _all_ the environment you just shouldnt bother trying to save any!? moron....:Shifty
> 
> Glad to hear veganuary is going well for folks! I used to be a big cheese lover too but TBH after a while the vegan ones start to taste just as good as dairy cheese, plus because it doesnt have the addictive qualities of cow cheese you really dont fancy it as much either.
> As for chocolate I think most dark chocolate is vegan and the fact you cant just grab a bar whenever makes you abit more discerning about treating yourself to choccy! (my fav is Montezuma organic dark chocolate with orange and geranium. yum).


Urgh yes that's all he seems to bang on about, trying to catch everyone out. I wish Chris had turned around and gone, well Piers why don't you give us some tips on how you avoid palm oil..

Yes I found I'm just not as fussed on cheesey stuff as I used to be. In theory it is harder to pick up chocolate which should be good but I shop at aldi and they have the yummiest Mini creme chocolate bar and I get one pretty much every week (it's a sharersized bar) it's too yummy!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Week 2 from Bosh - already seen on Instagram the demo for the Butternut Squash & Red Lentil Dahl (Page 22 of the attachment below) and it looks so good I just have to make it this week :Hungry

https://s3.amazonaws.com/kajabi-sto...50pS_BOSH_VEGANUARY_MEAL_PLANNER_-_WEEK_2.pdf

I seriously don't know why anyone thinks a vegan diet is restrictive, my problem is trying to fit in all the lovely meals I want to make every week.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2019)

All my life cheese has been such a staple food and I’ve always eaten so much of it. I think I actually am/was addicted to it because I would have a really cheesy meal (e.g. pizza with cheese stuffed crust!) and then all I’d be able to think about for the next couple of days would be how I wanted more cheese! So ‘cutting back’ has never worked for me. Give it a couple more weeks and I’m sure those cravings will reduce even more.

I have found an amazing vegan ice cream range which is good for the occasional treat


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I seriously don't know why anyone thinks a vegan diet is restrictive, my problem is trying to fit in all the lovely meals I want to make every week.


I think when you're used to a meal not being a meal without meat it can feel very restrictive. 
I also read somewhere about how most people only eat a rotation of something like 7 meals so if those 7 meals are meat-based, it becomes 'restrictive' to try and branch out.

But yes, there can be tremendous variety in a vegan diet. 
I'm boring though and tend to stick to some staples (I guess the vegan version of the 7 meal rotation). Usually some variation of No Meat Athlete's 'a grain, a green, and a bean' but even within that formula, the possibilities really are endless.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> Milk tastes funny to me now if someone puts it in my tea it tastes sour. M & S have started a good vegan range for rush days.


They do indeed just found that out today! Didn`t expect to be getting back from my mums so while shopping for her spotted and bought myself a wrap. As it happens I have got home and have eaten my wrap anyway, very nice 
All milk tastes funny to me, can`t bear any of it no matter what type.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I think when you're used to a meal not being a meal without meat it can feel very restrictive.
> I also read somewhere about how most people only eat a rotation of something like 7 meals so if those 7 meals are meat-based, it becomes 'restrictive' to try and branch out.
> 
> But yes, there can be tremendous variety in a vegan diet.
> I'm boring though and tend to stick to some staples (I guess the vegan version of the 7 meal rotation). Usually some variation of No Meat Athlete's 'a grain, a green, and a bean' but even within that formula, the possibilities really are endless.


I was much the same though but now we have a far wider variety of meals than we did before. I think once you remove the meat/fish/cheese/eggs element of a dish you just tend to be more adventurous - we certainly use a far wider variety of vegetables and grains than we used to. I have to be really strict with myself when I'm food shopping as I always want to make far more meals and buy far more ingredients than I will be able to make/use. I get a bit carried away with myself :Hilarious


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

My main problem with going vegan is that a lot of the more filling looking meals contain some sort of nut. I'm not allergic but the taste and texture always makes me nauseated, especially hazelnuts.

And the alternatives to milk I've tried taste odd to me too! 
I rather enjoy the occasional blind scouse so that's a start I suppose!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

HarlequinCat said:


> My main problem with going vegan is that a lot of the more filling looking meals contain some sort of nut.


[/QUOTE]

Plenty of filling meals without nuts though! I do know what you mean though. Nut roast for example, plus a lot of sauces seem to be made with blended nuts. Im trying to lose weight though so try and avoid nuts most of the time.
Beans are the way to go if you want filling though. Lovely in soups, rice/pasta dishes, or insalads. Plus youcan smoosh them for sandwich fillings or making 'meatloaf' or burgers.I usually eat a can a day


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

HarlequinCat said:


> My main problem with going vegan is that a lot of the more filling looking meals contain some sort of nut. I'm not allergic but the taste and texture always makes me nauseated, especially hazelnuts.


Are you talking about pre-prepared meals or recipes?
Pretty much all of what I make for meals does not contain nuts. My son is not a fan. I do put pumpkin and flax seeds in smoothies or oatmeal, but actual nuts we usually only eat as a snack or blended cashews in homemade nut milk and to make sauces creamy.

Legumes and starchy whole-food carbs make meals satisfying IME. Like sweet potato curry with lentils (my lunch today). Or the classic bean and rice in all it's potential different combinations


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

We also rarely have any meal with nuts in (OH doesn’t like nuts!). We eat lots of lentil, quinoa, chickpeas, sweet potatoes, mixed beans etc  and of course tons of other veg


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

M & S plant based range getting very good reviews. I didn't realise the range was so large. Must pop in and have a look although not sure if they are carrying it in all branches.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

I'll have to look again! The preprepare stuff seemed to have nuts and the recipes too. Maybe I didn't look at enough.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

This looks yummy - might give it a go minus all the oil - would never have thought of doing the potatoes like that


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

We made jackfruit tacos (BOSH recipe - though we had the mixture in wraps not tacos!) and it was really yummy. Just missing the coriander and we didn’t haven’t any avocados to make guacamole but still good! 

Only second time I’ve had jackfruit and first time OH has tried it and we both enjoyed it. Which is good as OH can be a bit fussy! Cans are on specialbuys in Aldi at the moment


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.efanews.eu/item/6053?fb...ZAo7QTuiI_x1FAFSizoqp9sa-qscIzMRrrbG6ev3Cvpmg

"The initial effect of the EAT-Lancet campaign seems to be not so much to promote animal welfare as to open up for "Big Ag" lucrative new markets and feed the hunger of governments for new tax bases".

Read the whole article, it's rather interesting and to be truthful is what I've believed all along. Nothing will convince me that a diet that requires supplements and misses out many micro nutrients can be classed as healthy


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> Read the whole article,


just read the whole article and wow....wonder if the writers were wearing tin foil hats when they wrote it coz its just a whole bunch of conspiracy theories with absolutely no evidence that EAT-Lancet report is wrong! They say meat is healthy for you but dont address the issue of heart disease in western countries and its relation to eating animal products!
Think Im going to stick with the side that has numerous studies, organisations and health practitioners (none of whom are subsidized by any industries with agendas) to back it up rather then the die hard hold overs for unsustainable practices.

(also the EAT-Lancet report doesnt give a flying fudge about animal welfare its more about how we can make sure we dont all die of malnutrition and starvation in a 100 years from now.)


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> They say meat is healthy for you but dont address the issue of heart disease in western countries and its relation to eating animal products!


Nothing to do with the rise of sedentary lives then?

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(17)30411-4/fulltext


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> just read the whole article and wow....wonder if the writers were wearing tin foil hats when they wrote it coz its just a whole bunch of conspiracy theories with absolutely no evidence that EAT-Lancet report is wrong! They say meat is healthy for you but dont address the issue of heart disease in western countries and its relation to eating animal products!
> Think Im going to stick with the side that has numerous studies, organisations and health practitioners (none of whom are subsidized by any industries with agendas) to back it up rather then the die hard hold overs for unsustainable practices.
> 
> (also the EAT-Lancet report doesnt give a flying fudge about animal welfare its more about how we can make sure we dont all die of malnutrition and starvation in a 100 years from now.)


It isn't perfect by any means and I'm sure all the plant based scientists would want more of their evidence to be included but given its a coming together of so many scientists from different areas and with different backgrounds/agendas I think its a big step in the right direction. Its bringing the health implications of the Western diet right in to main stream media and the plate they are recommending is a vast improvement from the current ones. Of course I would prefer it if they came out and said go plant based for your health, for the plant and for the sake of animals but I think we are a good few years off that yet. However the more reports we have like this one that can shut up idiots like Piers Morgan the better. One of the vegan activists did a radio interview yesterday and the presenter literally laughed in his face and accused him of making it up when he suggested moving away from eating animal products was better for health and the planet so this will be a useful resource if nothing else when dealing with idiots like that.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> Nothing to do with the rise of sedentary lives then?
> 
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(17)30411-4/fulltext


yes, leading a sedentary lifestyle is bad for you but Im pretty sure that the saturated fat in peoples arteries that cause heart attacks and strokes doesnt come from their armchair!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Our current western diet is responsible for the highest rates of obesity ever documented, highest rates of heart disease, type 2 diabetes, cancer, yes, cancer. 
The correlation between processed meat and colorectal cancers is as strong as the correlation between smoking and lung cancer. 
I know correlation gets thrown out as not definitive proof, and while this is true, strong correlations like these can't be ignored. For example, believe it or not, but there has never been definitive proof that smoking causes lung cancer (some people who smoke won't get lung cancer, some people who have never smoked do get lung cancer), however, based on the overwhelming _correlation_ between smoking and lung cancer, we now put warnings on cigarette packets. The evidence of the same sort of correlation between processed meat and colorectal cancers is definitive enough that the WHO ended up classing processed meats as class 1 carcinogens. 
There are similar correlations (though true, not as strong) between dairy consumption and reproductive cancers in both men and women. 
There are known carcinogens in cooked meat. 
There is a strong correlation between saturated fat and dietary cholesterol and heart disease - the leading cause of death in the United States and I'm sure the UK is not far behind.

Meanwhile, plants are chock-full of anti-carcinogenic properties, and a plant-based diet is the ONLY diet that has been scientifically proven to not only stop heart disease but reverse it and actually clean out clogged arteries without surgical intervention.

I don't understand why this is controversial. We know plant foods are good for you. We know processed foods are not, and especially not processed meats. We know eating less meat and dairy has positive health benefits. 
I'm not advocating that everyone should be vegan, I'm not 100% vegan myself. But for the vast majority of the western world it is a no brainer that we could use far less meat and dairy in our diets, and that change would benefit our health and the health of the planet.

Any move in the direction of consuming fewer animal products seems like a good thing to me *shrug*


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> Nothing will convince me that a diet that requires supplements and misses out many micro nutrients can be classed as healthy


Wouldn't dream of trying to convince you of anything but felt it would be relevant to mention that the only supplement needed in a vegan diet is B12 which just so happens to be a recommended supplement to omnivorous diets also, as our food production practices have largely removed our access to B12 - made by microbes in dirt.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Wouldn't dream of trying to convince you of anything but felt it would be relevant to mention that the only supplement needed in a vegan diet is B12 which just so happens to be a recommended supplement to omnivorous diets also, as our food production practices have largely removed our access to B12 - made by microbes in dirt.


Yep we just cut out the middle man aka the animal that has been fed food supplemented with B12. Funny how different people look at things, I'd far rather choose a diet that is high in fibre, colour and micronutrients, which are all health promoting than one rich in saturated fat/cholesterol and toxins which are disease promoting.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yep we just cut out the middle man aka the animal that has been fed food supplemented with B12. Funny how different people look at things, I'd far rather choose a diet that is high in fibre, colour and micronutrients, which are all health promoting than one rich in saturated fat/cholesterol and toxins which are disease promoting.


Yes, and it's important to challenge and re-learn some of the myths we have been told about food. Like that animal products are how you get B12. Well, no. For one, it's not the animal that makes B12, it's microbes. And the way we farm and raise livestock now, our dirt is so depleted of nutrients that animals aren't getting the B12 they need either, so they need to be supplemented too. When you stop and think about it, it's kind of silly to eat a chicken that has been supplemented with B12 in order to get your B12  Just take the supplement yourself. Or drink out of a stream in some untouched land - if you're brave  
Or the fallacy that you need dairy to get calcium and vitamin D. Milk is supplemented with vitamin D. It doesn't contain it naturally. And the calcium comes from the green leafy vegetation the cows eat, the cow doesn't create calcium. It's a mineral in the soil that the plants use, then transfer to the cow. So just eat the plant for calcium, and sit out in the sun for vitamin D - if you live in a place where you can do that. If you can't, take the supplement. You don't need to drink a glass of milk supplemented with vitamin D when you can just take the vitamin yourself.

Hey off topic, speaking of vitamin D, I ran across this article the other day and wow.... Gonna have to really think on this. 
I'll admit, I grew up in the tropics and no one thought of sunscreen in those days, but I'm "ethnic" and don't really burn so never really thought about it. 
When my own kids came along I was super lazy about sunscreen, and most of the time didn't bother, especially after they got their spring base tan going. All this time I'm thinking I'm a bad mom (especially since their dad has had a big chunk of his neck removed for skin cancer - basa cell, not melanoma). But turns out I may not be such a bad mom after all - well, not for that reason at least  
https://www.outsideonline.com/23807...25CdhGo9ZQBBI96u0OPVK6R892P5YnPrXe7Dgsmk55t6k


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't believe the situation is quite so either/or though.

If you don't live off plant foods exclusively, you're bound to be unhealthy and will likely die prematurely?

Those of us who do eat meat/fish/dairy/eggs, don't eat those foods alone, so necessarily have a diet high in saturated fats and cholesterol.

I eat fish often and eggs. I also eat a lot of vegetables and fruit. I'm healthy, have lots of energy and my weight is at the lower end of the desired scale for someone my age and height.

Is a small salmon fillet, steamed, with broccoli, carrots and parsnips, for instance, high in saturated fat and cholesterol?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

From Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine 

In addition, all that hype about good fats in fish, like salmon, is another bottom-feeder, according to Dr. Barnard, who goes on to explain that 40% of salmon is fat and that 70 to 80% of that fat is not good for us. “Most of the fat in fish is not omega-3’s and it doesn’t do your body any good.”

Or, does it do any good for your waistline. “Every gram of fat is 9 calories. And, you don’t have to do a lot of math before you realize I’m not going to lose any weight if I’m eating salmon. Doctors will say that’s the point, ‘it is fatty fish’ and you want the fish for the good fat, but what they’re not realizing is only a tiny fraction of it is good fish. So, I wouldn’t go there,” explain Dr. Barnard.

Besides, the bad fat, fish can also be toxic, with dangerous levels of mercury and other pollutants, adding, “Keep in mind where fish are from. They live in what has become a kind of human sewer – the oceans and waterways.”


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Eggs 70% of calories are from saturated fat and they have 213 mg of cholesterol per egg.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

I’m dining alone for the next three evenings while my OH is on night shifts (he leaves for work at 6, so we’d have to eat far too early for either of us, plus he likes to eat at work so he doesn’t get hungry again later). 

I’m rubbing my hands in glee because I’m going to go to my local M&S and see if they have the new vegan range in stock!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Rafa said:


> If you don't live off plant foods exclusively, you're bound to be unhealthy and will likely die prematurely?


No, I don't believe that.
However for the general population in the western world, we do eat far too much meat and dairy. And not nearly enough whole plant foods.
We also eat far too much processed food, including highly refined flour and sugar. And the evidence is very strong that these dietary trends are not good for our health or the health of the planet.
I remember growing up in a world where meat was a luxury, not an every meal staple. Sugar was for special occasions and highly processed snack foods were virtually non-existent. Now, those foods comprise the majority of most people's diets, with a token veggie or piece of fruit here and there.

To suggest that we (as in the general population in the western world) should cut back on meat, dairy, and processed foods and try to include more whole plant foods in to our diet seems pretty non-controversial to me....


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> Or drink out of a stream in some untouched land - if you're brave


Speaking as someone who once drank from a lovely stream whilst walking on Dartmoor then discovered a dead sheep rotting in it just upstream Im gonna say 'no thanks!'.:Hungover

Also remember there are 3 reasons for going vegan. 
Because its better for your health which some people are always going to argue.
Because its cruel to animals and it still staggers me that people even try to argue this one....like animals are somehow throwing themselves into slaughterhouses coz they no longer want to live! If you eat meat, fish, or even eggs and dairy then you are killing an animal that didnt want to die, its that simple.
Lastly to save the environment and people still try to argue this point as well when we are destroying our home around us! I would think everybody (but especially those with kids) would care that soon the oceans will be empty of life and the only place you will see a tiger or elephant is in a book.

So really unless you like heart disease, love killing animals and thoroughly enjoying trashing your own home is there any argument?
Also some Pringles are vegan...so are some varieties of Ben & Jerry's...I rest my case!LOL:Hilarious


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Also some Pringles are vegan...so are some varieties of Ben & Jerry's...I rest my case!LOL


I would never eat either of those though. To me, they're junk food and definitely not good for your waistline.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I would think everybody (but especially those with kids) would care that soon the oceans will be empty of life and the only place you will see a tiger or elephant is in a book*.*


I know far more people who have a vegan or vegetarian life and are childless. Sometimes it's about trying to lessen the impact of infertility treatment and a mindful life, but also down to embracing an environmentally aware approach to life - a leave no trace. I for one, if I am to live this life childless, want to leave a planet behind for others to enjoy. I am mystified why anyone wouldn't.

And eek to the stream on Dartmoor. A test of good constitution maybe?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Week 3 Meal Planner from Bosh

Like the look of the Rainbow Chestnut Stew on P18.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/kajabi-sto...NqTb_BOSH_VEGANUARY_MEAL_PLANNER_-_WEEK_3.pdf


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> Speaking as someone who once drank from a lovely stream whilst walking on Dartmoor then discovered a dead sheep rotting in it just upstream Im gonna say 'no thanks!'.:Hungover
> 
> Also remember there are 3 reasons for going vegan.
> Because its better for your health which some people are always going to argue.
> ...


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious at drinking from the stream!
I've drunk stream water and eaten dirt more times than I care to mention  Not always on purpose!

I think the reasons for going vegan can get complex. For me it's an easy choice as I don't eat meat, haven't since I was probably 11 or 12, don't miss it at all, can't imagine adding it back in to my diet. Dairy was easier to give up than I thought it would be, and the change in how I feel not eating dairy is dramatic enough to keep me motivated to stay away from it. 
Yes, ethics comes in to it, but that too is fraught with complexities. I know people who keep hens and love them as dear pets. The hens live a lovely life, and periodically produce eggs. Are those eggs unethical? I don't think so. Faced with solely the ethics of a homemade cupcake that has eggs from loved pet hens versus a vegan snack cake with palm oil, plastic wrapping, cardboard packaging, and who knows what factory worker conditions, I think the homemade cupcake is more ethical, more environmentally friendly, and might be healthier too - though I don't know that one would class any form of refined sugar and flour cake as 'healthy'.

I know this sounds horribly pedantic, and I'm not trying to be, just a shout out I guess to those who are trying hard to make ethical choices but may not be entirely vegan.
I would hope that (on this thread at least) we all do what we feel we can, however we feel we can do it.

I've told this before, that a veterinarian friend of mine stopped eating any form of commercial meat. She's not vegetarian though. The only meat she would allow herself to eat was meat she herself had hunted because it was the only way she could be assured that animal had had a humane death. A little weird, but also respect to her for doing what she felt was the more ethical choice.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> I know people who keep hens and love them as dear pets. The hens live a lovely life, and periodically produce eggs. Are those eggs unethical? I don't think so.


I dont think there is anything wrong with pet chickens given that they are naturally going to lay eggs. Makes me wish I knew someone with pet chickens and free eggs! I wouldnt want any personally coz I think the health guidelines are ridiculous and if I cant eat several a week then Id rather not tease myself with just one!LOL But I would def add them to the dogs food if I could get hold of them.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

I’m trying to take little steps to be more ethical. I replaced cotton wool pads with reusable ones, and I keep meaning to buy a natural dish sponge. This is the crux of the matter...I have all the good intentions, but I always forget or get distracted or second guess that I’m buying the right one. I procrastinate, basically.

So I try to do what little I can, when I can.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> I dont think there is anything wrong with pet chickens given that they are naturally going to lay eggs. Makes me wish I knew someone with pet chickens and free eggs! I wouldnt want any personally coz I think the health guidelines are ridiculous and if I cant eat several a week then Id rather not tease myself with just one!LOL But I would def add them to the dogs food if I could get hold of them.


I've never liked eggs, they kind of gross me out, and when I was little I used to have to collect them and the chickens scared me so not my favorite. Now that I have discovered flax eggs, I'm much happier just using that instead. In my own cooking I find it super easy to avoid eggs. I wouldn't mind feeding eggs to the dogs though.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Eggs are tricky. Back yard hens all came from somewhere so what happened to the males? Billions of male chicks are gassed/macerated alive every year because they are of no use just to get females for egg laying. So whilst I can understand the argument that eating eggs from happy chickens isn't doing any harm we do need to think about how those chickens came to be. My understanding (and I'm no expert so could be wrong) is that chickens wouldn't naturally lay eggs every day but have been selectively bred to lay more and more eggs much like cows are now selectively bred to produce higher milk yields. Producing so many eggs is apparently very taxing on the hen and in the past hens would have eaten their eggs themselves. If you crack an egg on the floor most hens will dive on it and eat it so ethically should we be taking something that they produced and can use for ourselves when we don't need to? I don't think back yard chickens is the most pressing issue though so I think we should focus our attention on the health and environmental issues producing eggs involves. There is a reason the EAT-Lancet report is only recommending such a small serving of eggs per week.

Environmentally eggs are the lowest producer of greenhouse gases from animal proteins although higher than all of the plant based proteins and they use a hefty amount of water.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Eggs are tricky. Back yard hens all came from somewhere so what happened to the males? Billions of male chicks are gassed/macerated alive every year because they are of no use just to get females for egg laying. So whilst I can understand the argument that eating eggs from happy chickens isn't doing any harm we do need to think about how those chickens came to be. My understanding (and I'm no expert so could be wrong) is that chickens wouldn't naturally lay eggs every day but have been selectively bred to lay more and more eggs much like cows are now selectively bred to produce higher milk yields. Producing so many eggs is apparently very taxing on the hen and in the past hens would have eaten their eggs themselves. If you crack an egg on the floor most hens will dive on it and eat it so ethically should we be taking something that they produced and can use for ourselves when we don't need to? I don't think back yard chickens is the most pressing issue though so I think we should focus our attention on the health and environmental issues producing eggs involves. There is a reason the EAT-Lancet report is only recommending such a small serving of eggs per week.
> 
> Environmentally eggs are the lowest producer of greenhouse gases from animal proteins although higher than all of the plant based proteins and they use a hefty amount of water.


If anyone does choose to eat eggs then PLEASE DO NOT CHOOSE LARGE/EXTRA LARGE EGGS in supermarkets!

Not only are commercial laying hens chosen to produce a lot of eggs but they are chosen to lay eggs which are far to big for them & can cause the most dreadful prolapses, several of my (ex battery) hens have had these & it's horrible for them 

However, there seems to be a lot of talk on vegan website about what hens will do with their eggs & how to stop them laying so many .... not taking their eggs does not help ex-batts stop laying (IME), it just means that they will end up trampling on the eggs & getting covered in them which then causes issues with flies. Some may eat their own eggs if left but a lot won't.

I feed the eggs from my chickens to my cat/dogs & back to the hens, particularly if they are going through a heavy moult. I try to save the shells of the eggs I use & grind up to make a powder which I will add to their food. Occasionally I will have an egg myself but I can't remember the last one I had now tbh.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> If anyone does choose to eat eggs then PLEASE DO NOT CHOOSE LARGE/EXTRA LARGE EGGS in supermarkets!
> 
> Not only are commercial laying hens chosen to produce a lot of eggs but they are chosen to lay eggs which are far to big for them & can cause the most dreadful prolapses, several of my (ex battery) hens have had these & it's horrible for them
> 
> ...


Very good point about the large/extra large eggs, one I'm sure not many people think about.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Very good point about the large/extra large eggs, one I'm sure not many people think about.


I must admit I never did until I got my first lot of chooks. It's awful when you see the damage that they can have due to passing these abnormally large eggs. Some times you can treat the prolapses but some are so bad that the poor birds have to be PTS as was the case with two of my girls


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Eggs are tricky. Back yard hens all came from somewhere so what happened to the males? Billions of male chicks are gassed/macerated alive every year because they are of no use just to get females for egg laying. So whilst I can understand the argument that eating eggs from happy chickens isn't doing any harm we do need to think about how those chickens came to be. My understanding (and I'm no expert so could be wrong) is that chickens wouldn't naturally lay eggs every day but have been selectively bred to lay more and more eggs much like cows are now selectively bred to produce higher milk yields. Producing so many eggs is apparently very taxing on the hen and in the past hens would have eaten their eggs themselves. If you crack an egg on the floor most hens will dive on it and eat it so ethically should we be taking something that they produced and can use for ourselves when we don't need to? I don't think back yard chickens is the most pressing issue though so I think we should focus our attention on the health and environmental issues producing eggs involves. There is a reason the EAT-Lancet report is only recommending such a small serving of eggs per week.
> 
> Environmentally eggs are the lowest producer of greenhouse gases from animal proteins although higher than all of the plant based proteins and they use a hefty amount of water.


Something else to bare in mind is most chickens are fed on pellets & these pellets often contain fishmeal, soya, palm oil & maize.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

See? All of this just bamboozles me; you think you’re being more ethical, but it’s almost a trade off. What you gain in ethical points from switching from one bad thing, you lose from the supposedly better thing because there’s a hidden bad.
Switch from milk to almond milk? Almond milk has bad environmental impact. Try and boycott palm oil? Well, most of what you replace it with isn’t much better from a deforestation perspective 

So I’m just going to try and make little changes where I can, and hope they make even a small difference.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Kimmikins said:


> See? All of this just bamboozles me; you think you're being more ethical, but it's almost a trade off. What you gain in ethical points from switching from one bad thing, you lose from the supposedly better thing because there's a hidden bad.
> Switch from milk to almond milk? Almond milk has bad environmental impact. Try and boycott palm oil? Well, most of what you replace it with isn't much better from a deforestation perspective
> 
> So I'm just going to try and make little changes where I can, and hope they make even a small difference.


Not sure if you saw this when I posted it but as you will see Almond milk doesn't have anywhere near the environmental impact of dairy milk.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042

Producing a glass of dairy milk every day for a year requires 650 sq m (7,000 sq ft) of land, the equivalent of two tennis courts and more than 10 times as much as the same amount of oat milk, according to this study.

Almond milk requires more water to produce than soy or oat milk. A single glass requires 74 litres (130 pints of water) - more than a typical shower. Rice milk is also comparatively thirsty, requiring 54 litres of water per glass.

However, it's worth noting that both almond and rice milk still require less water to produce than the typical glass of dairy milk.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

And if you prefer, you can make your own nut milk. I've made almond milk in the blender with almond butter, dates, and water. It's very good. To me it tastes better than store bought. 
My preference though is cashew milk. Raw cashews & water blended up well in the vitamix (high powered blender). No straining, just blend. Tastes amazing and is perfect in coffee.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> And if you prefer, you can make your own nut milk. I've made almond milk in the blender with almond butter, dates, and water. It's very good. To me it tastes better than store bought.
> My preference though is cashew milk. Raw cashews & water blended up well in the vitamix (high powered blender). No straining, just blend. Tastes amazing and is perfect in coffee.


A friend has also said that cashew was their preferred alternative


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I use hazelnut.....no idea if thats good or bad.:Bored


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> I use hazelnut.....no idea if thats good or bad.:Bored


There was a tv programme that said it was the worst one for the amount of sugar they put in, but I'd imagine it tastes amazing in coffee!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Which is another vote for making your own as you have 100% control over the ingredients


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

How long does a batch last, roughly? I don’t always have cereal, and some days I’m on a late so would only have one cup of tea so it homemade only stays ok for 2 days I’d need to factor that in to when I make it and how much I make


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Kimmikins said:


> There was a tv programme that said it was the worst one for the amount of sugar they put in, but I'd imagine it tastes amazing in coffee!


I dont really drink coffee but it is gorgeous with oatmeal and is the only one Ive found that I can drink hot, just with abit of cinnamon added.
It probably does have abit more sugar but compared to sodas or fruit juice it isnt that bad. (also weirdly has half the calories of the soya milk I was drinking before!).


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Kimmikins said:


> How long does a batch last, roughly? I don't always have cereal, and some days I'm on a late so would only have one cup of tea so it homemade only stays ok for 2 days I'd need to factor that in to when I make it and how much I make


Mine has lasted as long as 7 days, though I don't 100% know if that's okay. It starts separating when you put it in coffee after about 3 days, though as long as you stir it it's fine. I would say 3 to 5 days in the fridge for sure  When it's bad, you know, it coagulates. Though I don't know that it's really *bad* for you as in will make you sick, but it's not good to put in coffee anymore LOL! I've certainly not ever gotten sick from cashew milk, even when it separates. I'll drink it several days past that point and have never had any issues.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Mine has lasted as long as 7 days, though I don't 100% know if that's okay. It starts separating when you put it in coffee after about 3 days, though as long as you stir it it's fine. I would say 3 to 5 days in the fridge for sure  When it's bad, you know, it coagulates. Though I don't know that it's really *bad* for you as in will make you sick, but it's not good to put in coffee anymore LOL! I've certainly not ever gotten sick from cashew milk, even when it separates. I'll drink it several days past that point and have never had any issues.


That's great to know, thanks


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Great debate on Victoria Derbyshire show - great to see yet another main stream media debate about veganism and Ed is such a brilliant debater as he keeps calm, polite but hits them with his knowledge.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Great debate on Victoria Derbyshire show - great to see yet another main stream media debate about veganism and Ed is such a brilliant debater as he keeps calm, polite but hits them with his knowledge.


Ugh I hate watching those kinds of debates, but I have to say, this one was pretty civil at least 

I wish we would stop arguing over whether meat is a requirement in your diet. It's not. I think the vast number of healthy vegans and vegetarians in the world are proof of that. There are so many well-done studies showing that the healthiest, longest lived peoples are from cultures where meat is a very minimal part of the diet. You can be perfectly healthy on a diet devoid of meat and dairy products. This is not in question and I wish reporters would quit presenting it as if it were.

But by the same token, I wish we would stop saying everyone should go 100% vegan. For one, I don't think that will ever happen, though with clean meat I do think it will be possible to be cruelty-free about consuming meat. But also, it does put people off. I don't want to be told TO eat meat, so I understand being put off by being told what not to eat. I get why people do it, I do, but I think it does backfire sometimes too.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Ugh I hate watching those kinds of debates, but I have to say, this one was pretty civil at least
> 
> I wish we would stop arguing over whether meat is a requirement in your diet. It's not. I think the vast number of healthy vegans and vegetarians in the world are proof of that. There are so many well-done studies showing that the healthiest, longest lived peoples are from cultures where meat is a very minimal part of the diet. You can be perfectly healthy on a diet devoid of meat and dairy products. This is not in question and I wish reporters would quit presenting it as if it were.
> 
> But by the same token, I wish we would stop saying everyone should go 100% vegan. For one, I don't think that will ever happen, though with clean meat I do think it will be possible to be cruelty-free about consuming meat. But also, it does put people off. I don't want to be told TO eat meat, so I understand being put off by being told what not to eat. I get why people do it, I do, but I think it does backfire sometimes too.


To be fair I don't know how else things will change if doctors/scientists/environmentalists/vegan activists etc etc don't push the message. Have you seen the new Canadian food plate that just came out? It pretty much mirrors the EAT-Lancet recommendations we saw last week with no dairy on the plate or as a drink and a tiny serving of meat and egg as optional within the protein section but recommendations to go for as much plant food as possible. I'm really hoping out next one will follow suit.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Here is the Canadian plate just in case anyone is interested

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/new-canada-food-guide-ditches-dairy-says-eat-more-vegan-foods


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Yeah, I don't know what the answer is. But I do like that veganism and plant based eating is getting more attention


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> But by the same token, I wish we would stop saying everyone should go 100% vegan. For one, I don't think that will ever happen, though with clean meat I do think it will be possible to be cruelty-free about consuming meat. But also, it does put people off. I don't want to be told TO eat meat, so I understand being put off by being told what not to eat. I get why people do it, I do, but I think it does backfire sometimes too.


True. Im not sure that 100% vegan is an achievable goal for an entire population (esp ones as addicted to saturated fats as us lot!) but I think there is def massive scope for improvement. IMO it would be better if meat/dairy became a special event food so maybe just once a week or for special occasions....Im sure that would do wonders for the environment!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't suppose it hurts to have goals to aim towards though so whilst I don't believe 100 % vegan is achievable in the next 10 - 20 yrs I do think we will continue to see a drop in demand as more plant based options become available and the triple threat of health, environment and animal welfare become more and more mainstream. The media are giving quite a lot of coverage to antibiotic resistance and the threat going forwards if new drugs are not developed. Lots of talk about reducing the amount of antibiotics used in humans and lip service paid to reducing the amount used in animals, although livestock is not specifically mentioned and it doesn't say how much of the world's antibiotics are used in livestock production and how that has impacted our microbiomes and resistance.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46973641


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> True. Im not sure that 100% vegan is an achievable goal for an entire population (esp ones as addicted to saturated fats as us lot!) but I think there is def massive scope for improvement. IMO it would be better if meat/dairy became a special event food so maybe just once a week or for special occasions....Im sure that would do wonders for the environment!


The irony is that meat and dairy used to be just that. My grandmother's generation for sure, and even my mom's generation (born 1930's) ate meat and dairy as a much smaller part of their diet than we do now. We keep looking at all these other factors to explain our weight and health issues, but the reality is, we eat far more meat and dairy than is good for us.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Useful resource from Dr Greger for anyone thinking of giving vegan a try or wanting to do it longer term and needing some guidance


file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Evidence-Based%20Eating%20Guide%20-%20Digital%20-%201.pdf


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sorry I don't think that link is working, perhaps you have to download it from his website.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Interesting programme on ITV tonight at 7:30

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-24/food-challenge-meat-vs-vegan-tonight/

Dr Marco Springmann is the author of a recent study which examined the environmental and health benefits of eating less animal products. His findings show that a low meat diet can reduce premature mortality by around 20%, and markedly reduce environmental impacts globally. Marco believes that the government should introduce a tax on meat, to reflect its risks.

The big question, is really, do we pay the right price for the food we eat. And, at present, the negative health impacts, and the negative environmental impacts, of foods, are not accounted for in the price.

- DR MARCO SPRINGMANN


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Great debate on Victoria Derbyshire show - great to see yet another main stream media debate about veganism and Ed is such a brilliant debater as he keeps calm, polite but hits them with his knowledge.


I watched this, I thought both put their point over well, but it hasn't made me feel the need to give up eating meat and eggs, as long as they are looked after well and are free range animals.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> I watched this, I thought both put their point over well, but it hasn't made me feel the need to give up eating meat and eggs, as long as they are looked after well and are free range animals.


well, you are def free to choose whatever you want to do but kinda missing all points of the interview surely? A well looked after animal is just as likely to increase your risk of heart disease as a poorly looked after one and free range animals are just as damaging to the environment even if they get a slightly bigger barn to live in.
I just know that for me personally (all issues of cruelty and environment aside) its the healthiest diet Ive ever had and the easiest to stick to.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Interesting programme on ITV tonight at 7:30
> 
> https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-24/food-challenge-meat-vs-vegan-tonight/
> 
> ...


And in the US the way meat and dairy is subsidized, you get a $18 hamburger for $3 which is ridiculous. I would be happy if they just removed the subsidies. But to say that you get branded anti-farmer. I'm actually very pro-farming. If we could get the government out of farming, farmers would be far better off. They could grow what they wanted to, how they want to, and not be dependent on what is subsidized by the government but instead by what the consumer prefers. I would love to see a return to smaller scale, family run farms instead of massive corporation run operations. And I think farmers would too.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> well, you are def free to choose whatever you want to do but kinda missing all points of the interview surely? A well looked after animal is just as likely to increase your risk of heart disease as a poorly looked after one and free range animals are just as damaging to the environment even if they get a slightly bigger barn to live in.
> I just know that for me personally (all issues of cruelty and environment aside) its the healthiest diet Ive ever had and the easiest to stick to.


To be honest at my time of life I don't think I'll be doing much more damage to the environment or my health.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Happy Paws said:


> To be honest at my time of life I don't think I'll be doing much more damage to the environment or my health.


There is also the issue of reversing the damage already done though.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

My favourite vegan activist


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> There is also the issue of reversing the damage already done though.


I do my best for the environment but I'm not changing the way I eat now.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> My favourite vegan activist


I love That Vegan Couple! Watching their mukbang videos....Im always in awe of how much food they can put away!LOL:Hilarious


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

This is interesting...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46964549


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> I love That Vegan Couple! Watching their mukbang videos....Im always in awe of how much food they can put away!LOL:Hilarious


Me too, did you see it the other day when they were eating hummus on toast with something else? I swear they had about 6 slices of toast each yet she is tiny.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Anyone watch the programme on tv tonight? Following 2 people who went (unhealthy, processed?) vegan? They both lost weight, both felt terrible and said they'd not continue. Then an interview with a girl who used veganism to hide her eating disorder and a doctor warning against it. Like people with eating disorders don't hide their eating habits anyway. *sigh*. A little about how careful you need to be if you go vegan, to make sure you're getting the right nutrients. Which of course you don't have to worry about if you live on pizza and macdonalds I suppose? 

It came across as ever so slightly biased. Is it my bias talking?

https://www.itv.com/hub/tonight/1a2803a1221


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2019)

I feel sometimes people jump on the vegan bandwagon without really making big diet changes - obviously they're not eat meat and dairy but there's still plenty of ways that they can continue to eat unhealthily. And that's great for the animals, but they're missing out all the health benefits themselves, and are then possibly more likely to put other people off veganism.

I've done nearly 3 weeks without dairy now. Generally its been fine - pleased to say the cheese cravings are decreasing! It's so hard to eat out though, and I have had a tiny bit of dairy when I've been out and there haven't been any vegan choices. But I figure that if I'm 100% dairy-free at home, on the odd times I am out at a cafe or whatever I'm not going to stress over a little bit of dairy in something (obviously I'm not going to order a milkshake and scones with clotted cream!).


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I was looking for this photo to illustrate reversing disease, and it popped up on FB today Yay!











Elles said:


> Anyone watch the programme on tv tonight? Following 2 people who went (unhealthy, processed?) vegan? They both lost weight, both felt terrible and said they'd not continue. Then an interview with a girl who used veganism to hide her eating disorder and a doctor warning against it. Like people with eating disorders don't hide their eating habits anyway. *sigh*. A little about how careful you need to be if you go vegan, to make sure you're getting the right nutrients. Which of course you don't have to worry about if you live on pizza and macdonalds I suppose?
> 
> It came across as ever so slightly biased. Is it my bias talking?
> 
> https://www.itv.com/hub/tonight/1a2803a1221


Can't watch it, but I can imagine 
I need to do better with being understanding about people not knowing how to eat vegan healthfully, but ugh, I get so irritated with folks like this. They eat the same diet they did before but now replacing meat and dairy with highly processed frankenfoods and then wonder why they feel like crap and their food bill went up.

This is why I like to differentiate between Whole Food plant based and vegan. Eating WHOLE plant foods is what makes the difference.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> Anyone watch the programme on tv tonight? Following 2 people who went (unhealthy, processed?) vegan? They both lost weight, both felt terrible and said they'd not continue. Then an interview with a girl who used veganism to hide her eating disorder and a doctor warning against it. Like people with eating disorders don't hide their eating habits anyway. *sigh*. A little about how careful you need to be if you go vegan, to make sure you're getting the right nutrients. Which of course you don't have to worry about if you live on pizza and macdonalds I suppose?
> 
> It came across as ever so slightly biased. Is it my bias talking?
> 
> https://www.itv.com/hub/tonight/1a2803a1221


Yes I saw it (linked on previous page). It was so so frustrating and a very poor representation of the vegan diet. Junk food is junk food whether its labelled vegan or not so why would you expect to feel healthier if you are eating vegan cheeseburgers, chips, apple pies and custard? Despite that he still lost a stone in a month and the woman 6 pounds but I didn't feel they were pointed in the right direction. As for Helen Skelton the presenter falling off the bandwagon by eating 4 pigs in blankets and laughing about how delicious they were - I was shouting carcinogens carcinogens carcinogens at the screen. So that is good for you and your children is it Helen whereas you must be careful about eating healthy wholefoods. Why not have an experienced vegan involved who understands the difference between vegan junk food and WFPB and can talk about the scientific research and the recommendations of the WHO not to mention the recent EAT-Lancet report. Of course her children didn't want to eat chick pea and sweet potato curry if they have been brought up on big slabs of dead flesh and highly processed pig parts. The only decent representative of a vegan diet was the rugby player. It proper put my blood pressure up :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

And why not share some of the truly inspirational stories like this one

https://www.forksoverknives.com/sick-and-disabled-to-healthy-on-a-plant-based-diet/#gs.8TceTJlg

This bit really struck me

"People always want to know how much weight I've lost. I've lost a ton-close to 200 pounds. I've also lost high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high blood sugar, crutches, and many prescription medications. I've gained long walks in the park with my wife, fun with my kids, adventurous travels with my family, and just a whole new outlook on life. Sometimes I don't even want to go to sleep because I don't want to miss anything!"

I think its easy to focus on what you might have to go without when you stop eating animal products but we should be focusing on what you will gain and the things you will lose like medications and crutches and pain.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I think that for some people, myself included, who make radical changes to their diets by cutting out meats and meat products will sometimes use veggie ready meals and other veggie processed foods to begin with. We're learning a whole new way of cooking and finding out how to get the essential nutriants - things we've never thought about before and it can be confusing, so sticking to the easy options is a good way to start. Then as we continue to learn, more and more changes are made until we get it right.. Any move in the right direction can only be a good thing, and we all have to start somewhere.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

jetsmum said:


> I think that for some people, myself included, who make radical changes to their diets by cutting out meats and meat products will sometimes use veggie ready meals and other veggie processed foods to begin with. We're learning a whole new way of cooking and finding out how to get the essential nutriants - things we've never thought about before and it can be confusing, so sticking to the easy options is a good way to start. Then as we continue to learn, more and more changes are made until we get it right.. Any move in the right direction can only be a good thing, and we all have to start somewhere.


Yes lots of people start out using "transition foods" such as Quorn or soya mince or ready meals and for ethical vegans who are not necessarily making the changes to improve their health these are fine longer term. The problem with the programme was that they didn't make clear that the health claims/evidence for a vegan diet are not going to be the same if people mainly eat junk food like burgers/chips/cheese/pies whether they are vegan or not. The health benefits come from eating a wholefood plant based diet which is largely unprocessed. It was an unfair representation to leave 2 beginners to pretty much eat what they wanted in terms of biscuits/burgers/chips/pies etc then complain that they felt worse and lacked energy. Why not show them how to make quick and easy meals made up of colourful and health providing fruits, vegetables, legumes and whole grains then tell us how they felt after a month. Even check their blood pressure/cholesterol levels too before and after so that the viewers got to see how quickly health can improve.

There are also lots of resources they could have sign posted to help people, although we did get a quick flash of the Bosh cookbook, they and The Happy Pear have brilliant websites/YouTube channels where you can see quick videos of them actually making the meals which helps beginners and there are also things like this starter guide from the Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine

https://p.widencdn.net/jyeygh/16037-NTR-Updated-Vegetarian-Starter-Kit-English-2

or this Challenge 22 site where you get help and advice with a mentor and access to dietitians

https://www.challenge22.com/challenge22/?group=351

Try vegan for 22 days with a group of people just like you. You'll get a daily challenge or a little tip each day, giving you the opportunity to try something new. For instance:


Prepare a delicious vegan breakfast (have you ever tried a vegan omelet?)
Go out to eat at a vegan restaurant
Make a decadent vegan dessert (did someone say chocolate cake?)
Learn to make an awesome vegan sandwich (so much more than peanut butter and jelly!)
Any questions or problems? Our experienced team is available around the clock. If you have any personal questions, you can ask your own personal mentor.

Wondering what to eat before a workout, how to get enough iron or protein, or how a vegan diet can work with your own health needs? Certified clinical dietitians who specialize in vegan nutrition respond to health topics in the group.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

McKenzie said:


> I feel sometimes people jump on the vegan bandwagon without really making big diet changes -


yup, you see that alot on Youtube....people failing coz they just hear vegan=healthy and dont research the hows and whys. Then they either fail coz they are still eating crap and therefore feel like crap (you are what you eat!LOL) or they fail coz they have no energy and feel rough after trying to live on just fruit smoothies!

The processed stuff is def bad for you long term, even if its good for transitioning. I went off the rails with junk food at christmas and going back to WFPB left me with a headache and feeling lousy for 2 days just from getting all the junk out of my system.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I didn't watch the programme because Helen is the daughter of a farmer isn't she so didn't see how it couldn't be unbiased....

The processed food is good for transitioning but you can't live on it alone... we'll have a burger or some sausages maybe once a week but mostly cook all our meals with fresh veg etc which i think should be realistic for most people who decide to make the change??



McKenzie said:


> I've done nearly 3 weeks without dairy now. Generally its been fine - pleased to say the cheese cravings are decreasing! It's so hard to eat out though, and I have had a tiny bit of dairy when I've been out and there haven't been any vegan choices. But I figure that if I'm 100% dairy-free at home, on the odd times I am out at a cafe or whatever I'm not going to stress over a little bit of dairy in something (obviously I'm not going to order a milkshake and scones with clotted cream!).


Great about the cravings! I started out like that. Went completely vegan at home but said if I struggled to find something out then I would just eat veggie but after a couple of months I had no desire to eat diary so I only go places with vegan options now. That worked for me


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nice easy vegan spag bol recipe - its low FODMAP(used by people with gut problems)/gluten free which as they explain can be a good place to start when you are transitioning and not used to fibre.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I was looking for this photo to illustrate reversing disease, and it popped up on FB today Yay!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you listened to this? Boy does Dr Greger whip the arse of this keto promoting body builder


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh how I love Dr. Greger!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

For those looking for some freezer/convenience meals these don't look too bad

https://www.birdseye.co.uk/products/veggie-bowls-asian-noodles

This one and the Moroccan Tagine bowl are vegan and the other two are vegetarian.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Week 4 menu from Bosh

https://s3.amazonaws.com/kajabi-sto...H6zH_BOSH_VEGANUARY_MEAL_PLANNER_-_WEEK_4.pdf


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm having lunch with a friend today - sushi. Though for me it will be veggie rolls, this restaurant is very vegan friendly, I love it, but OH can't stand sushi  So it's girlfriend day for whenever I want it


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Quite a good video about the principles of making a curry from scratch for anyone needing a bit of help with cooking meals from scratch


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I've been struggling to find a block of time to get some meals prepped this past week. 
Even so, it's still very easy to keep us all fed. I've been eating lentils for lunch. Fortunately I had a few cans of prepared lentils in the cabinet, so I dump them in a container, add some cumin, garlic, tumeric, and call it good LOL. Actually not a bad lunch  
OH has been eating beans and rice with salsa dumped on top. 
Hoping to get some sweet potatoes cooked up tonight, I'll add those to the lentils. 

Once you get in to the swing of this way of eating, it's really not hard even when you're short on time.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Our go to for when we are short of time is a big bag of frozen stir fry veg which I keep a supply of in the freezer, I cook those up and add in some frozen edamame beans and add a couple of spoons of either a chilli sauce or hoisin sauce and serve on a bed of rice (I even keep pre cooked frozen rice in the freezer for emergencies). It takes less than 10 minutes.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Last day of veganuary. I wonder how many people will stick with it? (all of them I hope :Chicken )


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

This didn't take long at all, and I made a big batch so I have lunch sorted for a few days at least  A lovely sweet potato stew to warm up these dreary days, with lots of good spices and antioxidant foods to keep the flu bugs away


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Last day of veganuary. I wonder how many people will stick with it? (all of them I hope :Chicken )


It was certainly a bumper year of sign ups - in the region of 300,000 I believe but haven't seen the final figures. I hope everyone who has given it a go has enjoyed it and at the very least will seriously reduce their animal product consumption in line with the Eat-Lancet Report. Given that Canada have also produced their healthy eating plate along those lines which recommends focusing on plant based products as much as possible I'm hoping the UK might follow suit when ours is next reviewed.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Last day of veganuary. I wonder how many people will stick with it? (all of them I hope :Chicken )


Even if most just reduce their meat/dairy intake that would be great. Some might just stick with small changes like with drinking tea/ coffee with out milk or using plant milk, every little change helps!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Chris is sticking with it  Really sad to hear hes been subjected to vitriol by some ultra vegans as he describes them.

*I did Veganuary, and now I'm staying vegan. Here's what I've learned so far*

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/03/veganuary-vegan-food-farming

..


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Chris is sticking with it  Really sad to hear hes been subjected to vitriol by some ultra vegans as he describes them.
> 
> *I did Veganuary, and now I'm staying vegan. Here's what I've learned so far*
> 
> ...


Glad to hear he is sticking with it. I think we all have to find our own path through the ethical maze and remember that every step towards reducing animal products consumption is a huge step in the right direction and should be applauded.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

There was an article I linked on another thread (that I'm too lazy to look for now) about why do vegans get so much hate - from all sides too. It's a hugely emotive subject, which is so odd to me. But it is what it is.
I also practice 'peaceful' parenting - my kids were never spanked. That garners the same level of hate and vitriol as veganism. And mind, that's just the information that my kids were not spanked. Not me telling anyone how to parent, just simply admitting you've never spanked your child invites all sorts of attacks. It's very weird.

But glad to hear Mr. Packham has made some life changes 
Long may his skin be thick


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

It does baffle me, this vitriol towards vegans. People take it as such an insult, as if veganism is offensive to non-vegans; to practise veganism is to be attacking those who eat meat, it seems. 
I don’t know whether people have become sensitised to it all due to the actions and attitudes of some vegans. I know that I have met some who would always give you the hard sell...I respond to them the way I respond to those who view my atheism as a challenge; everyone is entitled to their views, just don’t force it down my throat and we’ll get along just fine. 
Now, that’s not to say that I don’t like discussing the topic. Far from it! I’ve posted here a few times about wanting to change some aspects of my diet and lifestyle, and I’ve never met with anything other than helpful discussion, and I’ve never felt like I’m then being pressured to change completely, not scorned for not being 100% animal product free 

I try to make little changes, and I figure if everybody did that then that adds up to a big improvement. Baby steps.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Chris is sticking with it  Really sad to hear hes been subjected to vitriol by some ultra vegans as he describes them.
> 
> *I did Veganuary, and now I'm staying vegan. Here's what I've learned so far*
> 
> ...


It really is unfortunate that some people seem to think they are the Vegan Police & take any opportunity to take someone down. I read so many comments of this type this morning that I left yet another vegan FB group as I'm fed up of it. It is sad really to think that some people may be put off veganism or making even small changes to their lifestyle due to these people.

Funny that these militants will often hold themselves up as being so deeply 'compassionate' .... just not their fellow humans tho


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> It really is unfortunate that some people seem to think they are the Vegan Police & take any opportunity to take someone down. I read so many comments of this type this morning that I left yet another vegan FB group as I'm fed up of it. It is sad really to think that some people may be put off veganism or making even small changes to their lifestyle due to these people.
> 
> Funny that these militants will often hold themselves up as being so deeply 'compassionate' .... just not their fellow humans tho


I don't know, plenty of the vegan activists are also involved in human rights issues. I quite often get the "you care more about animals than you do humans" comments thrown at me which always tickles me. There are different approaches to all things vegan just as there are different approaches to pretty much everything in life. The trick is to find the people with the outlook that suits you. If you want to take a gradual, cutting down approach then vegan activists are probably not the best people to hang out with. Some of them can come across as hard/angry/bitter but I guess standing around outside slaughter houses (listening to the noises and seeing the distressed animals going in) or regularly entering factory farming facilities or doing undercover work or holding screenings of highly distressing films like Dominion is bound to make you more like that. They want action and they want it now and they believe if everyone had seen what they have they would be totally vegan too. They are impatient for change because they want the abuse to stop. Then there are other groups who get together to share recipes, cook foods to take out and share or do stalls offering free samples of vegan cheeses/milks etc, they tend to be a lot more laid back and more likely to encourage the "every little helps" approach. I don't really buy into the "someone was too militant or aggressive so I've been put off" excuse, if you want to cut down then cut down, if you want to stop altogether then stop altogether, it really doesn't matter what some bloke on the internet or some woman on a street demonstration says or thinks.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know, plenty of the vegan activists are also involved in human rights issues. I quite often get the "you care more about animals than you do humans" comments thrown at me which always tickles me. There are different approaches to all things vegan just as there are different approaches to pretty much everything in life. The trick is to find the people with the outlook that suits you. If you want to take a gradual, cutting down approach then vegan activists are probably not the best people to hang out with. Some of them can come across as hard/angry/bitter but I guess standing around outside slaughter houses (listening to the noises and seeing the distressed animals going in) or regularly entering factory farming facilities or doing undercover work or holding screenings of highly distressing films like Dominion is bound to make you more like that. They want action and they want it now and they believe if everyone had seen what they have they would be totally vegan too. They are impatient for change because they want the abuse to stop. Then there are other groups who get together to share recipes, cook foods to take out and share or do stalls offering free samples of vegan cheeses/milks etc, they tend to be a lot more laid back and more likely to encourage the "every little helps" approach. I don't really buy into the "someone was too militant or aggressive so I've been put off" excuse, if you want to cut down then cut down, if you want to stop altogether then stop altogether, it really doesn't matter what some bloke on the internet or some woman on a street demonstration says or thinks.


But unfortunately these 'activists' (& I actually doubt that some do much more than 'police' others tbh) are common (or maybe just loudest) on alot of groups. I have had more abuse from these people than meat eaters tbh, I commented on a group that I was vegan-ish as I eat the occasional egg from my chickens & OMG the comments that I received from some of these people was unbelievable, you'd think I was admitting that I murdered kittens for fun 

I do think alot of people are put off tho, someone at work was saying last week that she'd been asking some questions on a group & when she said she was in the process of changing her lifestyle she was attacked as to not doing so quickly enough ... so she stopped asking. Luckily she has really nice local group that she found & has been on a couple of food share nights which have been really interesting apparently.

Shouting at people,. telling them what they should & shouldn't do, policing them & being so critical all the time is not the way to promote veganism. Ultimately most people will eat meat so why exclude them or attack them? Surely it's much better to try to promote it in a more positive way, to educate people & to help them make better choices but if they aren't 100% (& no one is really) then accept their choice.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> But unfortunately these 'activists' (& I actually doubt that some do much more than 'police' others tbh) are common (or maybe just loudest) on alot of groups. I have had more abuse from these people than meat eaters tbh, I commented on a group that I was vegan-ish as I eat the occasional egg from my chickens & OMG the comments that I received from some of these people was unbelievable, you'd think I was admitting that I murdered kittens for fun
> 
> I do think alot of people are put off tho, someone at work was saying last week that she'd been asking some questions on a group & when she said she was in the process of changing her lifestyle she was attacked as to not doing so quickly enough ... so she stopped asking. Luckily she has really nice local group that she found & has been on a couple of food share nights which have been really interesting apparently.
> 
> Shouting at people,. telling them what they should & shouldn't do, policing them & being so critical all the time is not the way to promote veganism. Ultimately most people will eat meat so why exclude them or attack them? Surely it's much better to try to promote it in a more positive way, to educate people & to help them make better choices but if they aren't 100% (& no one is really) then accept their choice.


I think it depends on what you mean by activists - to me that means people who actually get up from behind their computer/phone screens and go out and do stuff, whether that be social disturbance/slaughter house vigils, rescues, cubes of truth, organising debates, holding film screenings etc. I don't consider myself or other people who just hang around on facebook policing others to be activists. The trouble these days is that most people make judgements about a whole movement based on what a few people on facebook say to them. Like I said if one group is too judgemental then find another that isn't or don't join a group, just use the resources that are available on line. I went from meat/dairy consuming to fully plant based without the help of any social media groups (just followed Dr Greger's Daily Dozen) and apart from on here I don't really engage much with other vegans although I do watch a lot of videos/listen to talks etc. All I'm saying really is if someone wants to change then its perfectly easy to change without caring what someone on facebook or twitter thinks about how quickly or how totally you are on board. Ethical vegans are I think going to be a lot more hard line than people who are changing for environmental or health reasons. There are so many resources out there now to help with the changes such as the Bosh/Happy Pear websites that you really don't need to engage with people who are not encouraging.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think it depends on what you mean by activists - to me that means people who actually get up from behind their computer/phone screens and go out and do stuff, whether that be social disturbance/slaughter house vigils, rescues, cubes of truth, organising debates, holding film screenings etc. I don't consider myself or other people who just hang around on facebook policing others to be activists. The trouble these days is that most people make judgements about a whole movement based on what a few people on facebook say to them. Like I said if one group is too judgemental then find another that isn't or don't join a group, just use the resources that are available on line. I went from meat/dairy consuming to fully plant based without the help of any social media groups (just followed Dr Greger's Daily Dozen) and apart from on here I don't really engage much with other vegans although I do watch a lot of videos/listen to talks etc. All I'm saying really is if someone wants to change then its perfectly easy to change without caring what someone on facebook or twitter thinks about how quickly or how totally you are on board. Ethical vegans are I think going to be a lot more hard line than people who are changing for environmental or health reasons. There are so many resources out there now to help with the changes such as the Bosh/Happy Pear websites that you really don't need to engage with people who are not encouraging.


I'm on a couple of groups & they aren't too bad, the odd nutter on there but mainly people are very friendly & very helpful. It was interesting the other week when someone started a thread asking if people felt embarrassed to call themselves vegan & quite alot did & the main reason was other vegans. quite shocking really but the posts were really interesting to read & for once the shouty people weren't the ones taking over a thread 

Personally I don't give a stuff what people on a FB group or forum think of me (& found some of the comments about my 'egg eating shame' hilarious! :Chicken) but some do & I think that some people use social media (or whatever) alot more than others so it can be very influencing & by harrassing people or attacking them seems very unproductive.

(And I used the term 'activists' sarcastically as I think the only 'activism' some people do is having a pop at people who are not worthy enough to call themsevles vegan  )


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I'm on a couple of groups & they aren't too bad, the odd nutter on there but mainly people are very friendly & very helpful. It was interesting the other week when someone started a thread asking if people felt embarrassed to call themselves vegan & quite alot did & the main reason was other vegans. quite shocking really but the posts were really interesting to read & for once the shouty people weren't the ones taking over a thread
> 
> Personally I don't give a stuff what people on a FB group or forum think of me (& found some of the comments about my 'egg eating shame' hilarious! :Chicken) but some do & I think that some people use social media (or whatever) alot more than others so it can be very influencing & by harrassing people or attacking them seems very unproductive.
> 
> (And I used the term 'activists' sarcastically as I think the only 'activism' some people do is having a pop at people who are not worthy enough to call themsevles vegan


Difficult one though - the most successful of the activists in getting people to actually take up the 22 day challenge are the most outspoken ones. The quite nicely nicely ones don't tend to have so many followers or financial supporters or get as many people who follow through to the 22 day challenge. Of course that doesn't mean they don't get conversions in other ways and we have no way of knowing overall which is the more successful approach. I do understand though when some of the activists say they are not here to worry about our feelings, they are here to defend animals and get the message across. A lot of the recent air time on main stream media has been down to activists who were making other people feel uncomfortable about eating meat. Social change on a large scale rarely happens because people have a nice chat it happens because a group of people force the issue.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I tend to lean more towards Paulo Coelho's quote "The world is changed by your example, not your opinion." 

To that end, I try to be an example of compassion in consuming. Not just in how I eat, but in all my consumer choices. I constantly fall short, but at least I'm trying and I think more people identify with that kind of example, than the "perfect" I eat perfectly, I don't produce any waste, I don't shave my armpits type example  
At least in my experience people do. 

As a vegan I also feel some pressure (put on myself mainly) to be healthy. I feel like I have a better chance of promoting this lifestyle if I myself am an example of health and well-being. If I were constantly sick or with poor energy people will jump on that as a reason to not be vegan. But it can be encouraging when people my age see me feeling better than they do, doing more than they are (gosh that sounds smug doesn't it?) I don't mean it that way, but hopefully you get what I'm saying!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sounds like this is a really appropriate podcast to our discussion


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Chris is sticking with it  Really sad to hear hes been subjected to vitriol by some ultra vegans as he describes them.
> 
> *I did Veganuary, and now I'm staying vegan. Here's what I've learned so far*
> 
> ...


I'm not surprised, which is a great shame, the veganuary website sent almost daily (incorrect) propoganda about veganism during veganuary, I questioned a few of these things on their facebook adverts, which led to abuse from others and incredibly rude (and incorrect) replies from veganuary representatives. A few even offered to sexually assault the child in my facebook profile picture (was actuall me as a child) as they deserved it if they has ever eaten meat.

Veganuary could have educated people, but sadly it decided to go the route of propoganda and shock tactics.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Vanessa131 said:


> I'm not surprised, which is a great shame, the veganuary website sent almost daily (incorrect) propoganda about veganism during veganuary, I questioned a few of these things on their facebook adverts, which led to abuse from others and incredibly rude (and incorrect) replies from veganuary representatives. A few even offered to sexually assault the child in my facebook profile picture (was actuall me as a child) as they deserved it if they has ever eaten meat.
> 
> Veganuary could have educated people, but sadly it decided to go the route of propoganda and shock tactics.


Did you report them? Do you have screen shots of this? If so I'd like to take it up with veganuary.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Did you report them? Do you have screen shots of this? If so I'd like to take it up with veganuary.


Of course I reported it, I do have screen shots, which I won't be sharing with anyone else, nor would I like anyone to 'speak' on my behalf.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sounding more and more like a cult isn't it, and not a pleasant one either. 

I wonder how healthy these people are going to be in 20 years time? 

I think it's great to cut down on meat and dairy but not cut it out, also many of the substitutes are not saving the world, quite the opposite, with deforestation, prairie like farming and travel miles.

While other countries use massive amounts of concentrates for there livestock, only pig and chicken farmers do in the UK as a rule 
We are a green and pleasant land that has many many areas that will only sensibly graze animals. Surely those that advocate veganism, wouldn't want that land changed to intensive farming to get their protein!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.elephantjournal.com/201...MT-96wz9pdMHz0dKKxqr7JhNhjMoSBXQZJcmFWGoZLbdo

"So, how can we spout that veganism as a mindful diet will solve the world's problems or hunger, when choosing a local vegan kale and chickpea organic quinoa salad for lunch is not even close to an option for most people? 400 million people in India live in poverty"


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sounds like this is a really appropriate podcast to our discussion


Anyone not interested in listening to the whole thing, just the first 5 minutes is really worthwhile and talks about "leaning in" - every effort matters, no matter where you're at


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> Sounding more and more like a cult isn't it, and not a pleasant one either.


Please listen to the first 5 minutes of the podcast Rottiepointerhouse shared and that I quoted above.



rona said:


> "So, how can we spout that veganism as a mindful diet will solve the world's problems or hunger, when choosing a local vegan kale and chickpea organic quinoa salad for lunch is not even close to an option for most people? 400 million people in India live in poverty"


But for a lot of us who don't eat meat, that's nothing like how we eat. 
I do eat a lot of chickpeas, but I buy them in bulk, dried, they keep forever, and they're dirt cheap. Beans too. 
Those people in India living in poverty are eating closer to a plant based diet than most westerners too.

To me, plant-based is peasant food. Cheap, from the earth, stuff you can grow in a small allotment of land. But the nice thing is, it's also good for you and good for the planet


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> https://www.elephantjournal.com/201...MT-96wz9pdMHz0dKKxqr7JhNhjMoSBXQZJcmFWGoZLbdo
> 
> "So, how can we spout that veganism as a mindful diet will solve the world's problems or hunger, when choosing a local vegan kale and chickpea organic quinoa salad for lunch is not even close to an option for most people? 400 million people in India live in poverty"


Those of us that can, or have changed our diets to become more healthy and benefit the planet should be encouraged with it surely. That's like when they used to say to a kid 'eat your peas, there are millions starving in Biafra'.

Meat eaters are more of a cult. Get out of it and they'll get their knives out.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> Sounding more and more like a cult isn't it, and not a pleasant one either.
> 
> I wonder how healthy these people are going to be in 20 years time?
> 
> ...


Oh please Rona, the evidence for a wholefood plant based diet being better for health is overwhelming as I know you already know. Hard to let go of all doctrines though isn't it?

I posted this on the plant based thread earlier this week, you probably read it. Its from the author of a book called Undo - Dr Dean Ornish who has one of the only non surgical programmes to prevent and reverse heart disease (also early stage Prostate Cancer)

"The basic message is similar to Dr Chatterjee's 4 Pillar Plan but it focuses on a wholefood plant based diet, movement, stress management and loving more (social support,intimacy). These are some of the stand out bits for me so far

He talks about how doctors are reluctant to recommend these changes to patients because they don't believe they will stick with it. 94% of people who enroll on his 9 week programme (funded by Medicare and many health insurance companies in the US) complete it and of those 85-90% are still following it a year later. He maintains this is because they start to feel better very quickly. On the other hand of patients prescribed statins and high blood pressure tablets only about half are still taking them 6 months later and as many as a third never fill the prescription in the first place. He thinks this is because they don't really make people feel better and can have side effects.

He explains how for lifestyle changes to be sustainable they need to be pleasurable and meaningful so fun, making you feel good/better which motivates people whereas fear of dying or of having a long term chronic illness doesn't motivate long term. People need to feel the benefit of making changes not just be told they will prevent something bad happening.

I also love his explanation that preventing chronic diseases allows for more wriggle room, you can have some indulgences then get back on track the next day (overall way of eating) but actually reversing disease once it has occurred needs a bigger commitment to make bigger changes and maintain them. He says he would love to say that moderate lifestyle changes can reverse chronic diseases but that wouldn't be true. Moderate lifestyle changes don't allow you to eat and do everything you want to but the changes you make are not big enough to feel that much better or for clinical measures/markers to improve so you get demotivated and stop.

He talks a fair bit about how the same disease pathways cause the same chronic diseases rather than each disease having a different cause which is why making these lifestyle changes impacts positively on so many chronic diseases (including some cancers). Then he talks a fair bit about erections and how erectile dysfunction affects about 18 million men and about 50% of male type 2 diabetics and how much difference a plant based diet can make in this respect thus belying the claim that following this lifestyle means you miss out on all the fun :Joyful

A case study he gives is very striking. A 61 year old doctor from New York who was very fit/went skiing regularly and never felt out of breath. Had a massive heart attack in 2015, severe blockages in coronary arteries - one was 100 % blocked, his ejection factor (the percentage of blood the heart pumps with each beat) which should be around 50% was only 11%. He had a stent inserted but 2 weeks later that was completely occluded. He could not walk a few steps without chest pain and later had a full cardiac arrest. His wife & children were told he would not survive but he did and was then told his only hope long term was a heart transplant. He couldn't do the cardiac rehab programme because his BP would drop and he would pass out, he was depressed and miserable as his life had changed beyond recognition. He then came across Dean Ornish's programme, after 9 weeks of following it his ejection factor was up to 30%, is now 35% and he no longer needs a heart transplant. He is back working 4 days per week as a doctor, goes on long walks and believes he survived to help other people learn about this way of life. I found this sentence so striking

"I whined about the food, it seemed like the end of the world that I couldn't eat everything. It wasn't. After only a few weeks my palate changed and I began enjoying the meals. The paradox is that what seems to be the hardest path turns out to be the easiest one, the path of least resistance. Once you've made that commitment then you start to feel better so rapidly, you experience that it's clearly worth doing."

His wife said the difference between this programme and others is "18 inches. The distance from your brain to your heart. Once your brain decides to change your behaviour, your heart follows"

You may also be aware of Dr Ellsworth Wareham who died recently aged 104. He was a vegan for approx 50 years and a heart surgeon who carried on working well into his 90's.

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/vegan-doctor-ellsworth-e-wareham-dies-104

There are more vegan ultra marathon runners than you can shake a stick at including this inspirational lady Fiona Oakes who also runs an animal sanctuary. She is 49 and has been vegan since she was a teenager.

Her personal best for marathon is 2:38:00, and some career highlights include:


National cycling titles (before changing to marathon running)
5th place in the Florence Marathon
17th place in the Berlin Marathon
8th place in Amsterdam Marathon
1st place in 2007 Halstead Marathon, in which she broke the Essex County Champion Course Record (which had stood for 9 years) by 11 minutes. Press coverage was excellent, including pictures of Fiona receiving the award in her Vegan Runners vest.
In June 2010 Fiona won the Rovaniemi (Finland) marathon, and in doing so set a Guiness world women's record for the fastest marathon ever inside the artic circle.
10th place in Moscow
22nd place in London
Fiona won the 2011 Great North Run half marathon (Masses Race)
Winning the Levi International Marathon (Finland) in a course record of 2.58 in
September 2011 - beating the old course record by 22 minutes. This was while wearing a backpack for training reasons. 
In 2011 Fiona entered the tough Dartmoor Marathon in training for a future event. She carried weight as part of her training, but still won the event by over 14 minutes.
Fiona has completed the 2012 Marathon des Sables, a 156 mile event across the sand dunes and rough terrain of the Sahara Desert. She faced extreme temperatures of 51 Centigrade and suffered a broken foot days before the race began. Early on another entrant collapsed so Fiona dragged her to safety. See more on this amazing performance here.
In 2013 She took on the North Pole Marathon, in temperatures of -28 Centigrade. She completed the event, won the women's race, came third to two male competitors and broke the women's course record by an amazing 45 minutes. Read more about her event here.
Later that year she became the fastest woman ever to complete a marathon on all continents plus the North Pole. She also set the Guiness world record for the shortest aggregate time for those runs. 
As part of that marathon series she set the course record for the Antarctic Ice Marathon.
In 2014 she also attempted the Marathon des Sables again.
In July 2014 she ran the Rio marathon and in doing so broke two of her own Guiness world records (read more here).
In October and November 2014 she ran seven marathons in seven consecutive days, finishing with an emphatic win (read more here).
In February 2015 she took on the challenge of running a marathon a day for seven days - each on a different continent (read more here).
In April 2017 she completed her third Marathon des Sables (read more here).
In 2018 she ran a Half Marathon in a cow suit to break a world record (more here)
Later that year she completed the Atacama Desert 250km run, winning a stage (read more here).
In 2014 Fiona was a finalist in Vegan Athlete of the Year 2014.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> https://www.elephantjournal.com/201...MT-96wz9pdMHz0dKKxqr7JhNhjMoSBXQZJcmFWGoZLbdo
> 
> "So, how can we spout that veganism as a mindful diet will solve the world's problems or hunger, when choosing a local vegan kale and chickpea organic quinoa salad for lunch is not even close to an option for most people? 400 million people in India live in poverty"


Tbh I don't think veganism is the answer to all the problems, I don't believe it's a diet that will suit everyone & I don't think it is always a healthier option (some vegans still eat a lot of junk food) ...... I think there are so many factors to consider, so many variables but for me it does suit (I try to eat a plant based diet) & I feel happier with my choices, better about my body & healthier. But I do think we should be more aware of our food, where it comes from, how it's produced & the animal welfare (or lack of) so we can make more informed as choices.

Having said that if you look at a lot of food around the world, especially from poorer areas where there is little meat, little dairy then the meals are probably a lot healthier & closer to what a lot of what is recommended for a plant based diet than some of the crap we eat in the West. When I visited India (I was veggie at the time) it was so easy & there were so many choices to eat if you were veggie/vegan ... so much so that I stuffed my face for nearly 4wks & put on a stone!!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> https://www.elephantjournal.com/201...MT-96wz9pdMHz0dKKxqr7JhNhjMoSBXQZJcmFWGoZLbdo
> 
> "So, how can we spout that veganism as a mindful diet will solve the world's problems or hunger, when choosing a local vegan kale and chickpea organic quinoa salad for lunch is not even close to an option for most people? 400 million people in India live in poverty"


Of course everything we eat has an environmental impact, there is no such thing as a free lunch but please feel free to use the BBC calculator to compare the impact of vegan foods to animal products

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042

As to it becoming a cult if a cult means being kind and compassionate to animals then I'm happy to be a part of it. Have you watched the Compassion In World Farming video I posted about 6 months in a life of a factory farmed pig? So that is normal, gassing pigs is normal but being vegan is a cult :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lets hear what Dr Garth has to say


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> I'm sitting here reading this sipping my coffee with cashew milk
> I've become such a cashew milk snob, everything else tastes watery to me now. 3/4 cups of cashews, 3 cups water, blend in the vitamix, done. I love the stuff. It's really nice in oatmeal too.


I made some yesterday, it is gorgeous in my coffee ! It's a no strain recipe so quick too .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> I made some yesterday, it is gorgeous in my coffee ! It's a no strain recipe so quick too .


I'm fundamentally lazy in the kitchen, so the no-strain factor is big with me too  
It's so ridiculously easy, cashews, water, blend, done. I sometimes add a date or two for sweetness, but mostly I just do the cashews and water. And yup, I love it in coffee.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> I wonder how healthy these people are going to be in 20 years time?


I'm 47
I stopped eating meat when I was 11 or 12. 
I'm made it past the 20 year mark and then some  
Yay me! :Hilarious


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Having said that if you look at a lot of food around the world, especially from poorer areas where there is little meat, little dairy then the meals are probably a lot healthier & closer to what a lot of what is recommended for a plant based diet than some of the crap we eat in the West. When I visited India (I was veggie at the time) it was so easy & there were so many choices to eat if you were veggie/vegan ... so much so that I stuffed my face for nearly 4wks & put on a stone!!


Did you read the article I posted?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

From Loma Linda University Researchers

"If Americans would eat beans instead of beef, the US would immediately realise approximately 50 to 75% of its greenhouse gas reduction targets for the year 2020"


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> Did you read the article I posted?


 Yes


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> Did you read the article I posted?


I did. It said that India is the world leader in beef export. I doubt the poor benefit. Basically what they are saying is that land has been taken to grow crops to feed cattle to export to feed westerners.

Education and availability of food is important. Even in meat eating cultures, malnutrition and starvation is an issue where there is poverty and famine. Our taking their land for monocrops to feed food crops that are animals is bound to be a major factor. As will promoting western produce, such as processed cheese and white sugar. Their refusal to eat cows, or even veganism isn't at the heart of this. Corruption and greed is.

Some cultures rely in part on insects and fish and traditional foods. We're even denying them those.

We don't need to import and eat these cows, we could cut back on fish too. Leave it for people who really need it and can only access local produce. Grow plant food that can feed them instead of feeding cows for us.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/animal-farmers-turned-vegan-major-food-conference

Meanwhile Farmers Weekly tells dairy farmers not to get into arguments with vegans and accept there are some debates they are never going to win. In other words ignore the ethics and focus on taste.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> While other countries use massive amounts of concentrates for there livestock, only pig and chicken farmers do in the UK as a rule
> We are a green and pleasant land that has many many areas that will only sensibly graze animals. Surely those that advocate veganism, wouldn't want that land changed to intensive farming to get their protei


An appalling 70% of farm animals are factory farmed in the UK. And I thought you said preferred to see pigs intensively reared?

,


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> https://www.elephantjournal.com/201...MT-96wz9pdMHz0dKKxqr7JhNhjMoSBXQZJcmFWGoZLbdo
> 
> "So, how can we spout that veganism as a mindful diet will solve the world's problems or hunger, when choosing a local vegan kale and chickpea organic quinoa salad for lunch is not even close to an option for most people? 400 million people in India live in poverty"


*Tackling the world's most urgent problem: meat*
https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/tackling-worlds-most-urgent-problem-meat


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏: _You can have an animal-based diet or you can have a rich and thriving living world. As the evidence accumulates, it becomes ever clearer that you can't have both_


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

More hope for the future 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/busin...dults-trying-plant-based-alternatives-to-milk

More than a quarter of 18 to 24-year-olds have either reduced their dairy consumption or completely cut it out in the past two years, according to a survey conducted by ComRes on behalf of the BBC.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://news.trust.org/item/20190207...tGj9E7-5AyadCfPEyAMZqf_wSVqqaFs_x4e6znd15HFcs

"But it reflects a tendency I often see when discussing Ethiopia's livestock ambitions with European or American colleagues: a view of livestock that ranges from the ambivalent to sharply negative. It thus misses an important opportunity to contextualize the diverse food production systems that characterize much of the world outside of the rich, developed countries."

"The report is certainly a step in the right direction, but it is not as global in its outlook as it could be. For example, it notes the potential of eggs to reduce stunting and asserts that many Africans, might benefit from more "animal source protein." But it could say more about how, in the developing world, milk, meat and eggs are necessary ingredients in the sustainable, healthy diets that we all strive for, and that they support the livelihoods of millions, across Africa and Asia".


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

So why are they exporting when they can't feed themselves @rona . Following links, they're promoting modern practices, so they can raise and kill more animals to sell to neighbouring countries and for export. The videos show Africans standing next to barns and sheds full of fattening stock. How is that feeding the poor? They'll end up in the same state we're in and devastating land to grow crops to feed animals, with most no better off than they are now.

Eating like we do is neither healthy, nor sustainable and they shouldn't be being told it is imho. It may be that a full on vegan diet isn't possible and a few chickens and goats will do the trick. That doesn't mean barns full of fattening pigs and modern slaughterhouses is the answer.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Oh and Somalia sold its fishing rights to China for peanuts. Chinese factory ships are trawling the lucrative and formerly plentiful Somalian waters, alongside other nations, all of whom were fishing illegally with no fear of reprisals from a country that barely has a government. Oil and Gas fields were auctioned off in London.

Poverty stricken Africans herding a few goats and a handful of chickens scratching in the dirt don’t need to go vegan for lent, or any other time imho. They aren’t who are devastating the planet’s resources to feed factory farmed beasts so morbidly obese Westerners can eat themselves to death.

I agree with the sentiment that we may need to take care with who is being targeted though. The pope if he does take up the challenge, would need to be careful not to cause mass starvation amongst his people who can’t access enough grain and plant food to feed themselves at the moment and may be relying on their animals for sustainance, but that’s no excuse for us.

Oops, thought this was the pope thread, but never mind lol.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> But glad to hear Mr. Packham has made some life changes
> Long may his skin be thick


Chris has always shown courage & has never been afraid to stick his heard above the parapet. He stuck a big target on himself for speaking out against our dreadful badger cull & the illegal persecution of raptors by the grouse shooting industry. He was arrested in Malta for highlighting the appalling massacre of migrating birds on the island. The revolting hunt/shoot lobby have tried to smear his name, even pressurising the BBC to sack him for having the temerity to stand up for wildlife. This is why I'm especially saddened to her of the abuse he has received from ultra vegans.



Cleo38 said:


> It really is unfortunate that some people seem to think they are the Vegan Police & take any opportunity to take someone down. I read so many comments of this type this morning that I left yet another vegan FB group as I'm fed up of it. It is sad really to think that some people may be put off veganism or making even small changes to their lifestyle due to these people.
> 
> Funny that these militants will often hold themselves up as being so deeply 'compassionate' .... just not their fellow humans tho


Its such a shame to hear. I can honestly say I've never received any abuse from strict vegans - not even when I was a vegetarian. Those I know personally & know online are compassionate towards people too. Like me though, I can't think of any who extend that compassion to fellow humans who enjoy abusing animals for fun:Bag.



Vanessa131 said:


> I'm not surprised, which is a great shame, the veganuary website sent almost daily (incorrect) propoganda about veganism during veganuary, I questioned a few of these things on their facebook adverts, which led to abuse from others and incredibly rude (and incorrect) replies from veganuary representatives. A few even offered to sexually assault the child in my facebook profile picture (was actuall me as a child) as they deserved it if they has ever eaten meat.
> 
> Veganuary could have educated people, but sadly it decided to go the route of propoganda and shock tactics.


That is bad. And I'm really shocked to hear Veganuary went down the propaganda route when they had so much disturbing factual material to use, it seems so unnecessary. I understand by your response to RPH that you don't want to disclose the horrible personal attacks, but would you mind sharing some of the propaganda you were sent by Veganuary?


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Chris has always shown courage & has never been afraid to stick his heard above the parapet. He stuck a big target on himself for speaking out against our dreadful badger cull & the illegal persecution of raptors by the grouse shooting industry. He was arrested in Malta for highlighting the appalling massacre of migrating birds on the island. The revolting hunt/shoot lobby have tried to smear his name, even pressurising the BBC to sack him for having the temerity to stand up for wildlife. This is why I'm especially saddened to her of the abuse he has received from ultra vegans.
> 
> Its such a shame to hear. I can honestly say I've never received any abuse from strict vegans - not even when I was a vegetarian. Those I know personally & know online are compassionate towards people too. Like me though, I can't think of any who extend that compassion to fellow humans who enjoy abusing animals for fun:Bag.
> 
> That is bad. And I'm really shocked to hear Veganuary went down the propaganda route when they had so much disturbing factual material to use, it seems so unnecessary. I understand by your response to RPH that you don't want to disclose the horrible personal attacks, but would you mind sharing some of the propaganda you were sent by Veganuary?


You just had to have signed up to their veganuary cause to get the emails, I'll see if they're still in my trash box, I'm not sure how long it takes for emails to be deleted in their.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

So the money behind all this is coming from 
Syngenta: who produces pesticides and poisons
Monsata PCBs; DDT, GMO
Bayer; insecticides and poison gas 

I wonder why they want more crops grown ......................


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

*"Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people."*
- Henry Kissinger


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> *"Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people."*
> - Henry Kissinger


And I think that's exactly what's happening .... cheap, crappy processed food is being pushed & people are losing touch with their food & their environment.

There was a programme on Channel 4 a while ago detailing countries with the best & worst diets around the world. It was quite depressing viewing as some of the poorer countries who were once hunter/gather communities had had their livelihoods compromised & consumption of processed foods was being encouraged which then had a major impact on their health & mortality rates


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> And I think that's exactly what's happening .... cheap, crappy processed food is being pushed & people are losing touch with their food & their environment.


Perfectly put


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

http://farmersfootprint.us/

Film streaming via above website from Feb 12th - should interest you @rona

Lots of their previous newsletters

http://farmersfootprint.us/field-notes/


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> So the money behind all this is coming from
> Syngenta: who produces pesticides and poisons
> Monsata PCBs; DDT, GMO
> Bayer; insecticides and poison gas
> ...


The money behind veganuary?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Interesting points. Apologies if it's already been posted

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/mi...-veganuary-is-over/ar-BBTCjis?ocid=spartanntp


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MilleD said:


> Interesting points. Apologies if it's already been posted
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/mi...-veganuary-is-over/ar-BBTCjis?ocid=spartanntp


Interesting read, thanks for posting. It does puzzle me why "veganuary" in particular is picked on though, there are far more people who follow a paleo/low carb diet pattern than there are vegans, some are very vocal on social/main stream media. We also have all of the healthy eating messages everywhere we look, cut back on sugar, cut back on processed foods, cut back on high saturated fat foods, cut back on alcohol. We can't stop promoting what we know promotes health and prevents disease, we can't stop talking about what is harming our planet and we can't stop talking about the sadistic crimes being committed against animals behind closed doors every single second (804,353,000 in the UK alone since 1st Jan this year) so I have no idea what the answer is


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MilleD said:


> Interesting points. Apologies if it's already been posted
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/mi...-veganuary-is-over/ar-BBTCjis?ocid=spartanntp


But then there are people like Dotsie Bausch, for whom veganism was instrumental in her recovery from a very serious eating disorder. 
https://www.richroll.com/podcast/dotsie-bausch-355/










And her TEDTalk here:





Not gonna lie. I bristle at the suggestion that a vegan diet is disordered eating or can lead to disordered eating. 
Not just because it's unfair to a vegan diet, but because it's very unfair to those who struggle with eating disorders to trivialize them in to a diet gone too far. Eating disorders are far more complex and involve many more factors than that and they deserve to be presented as such.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> But then there are people like Dotsie Bausch, for whom veganism was instrumental in her recovery from a very serious eating disorder.
> https://www.richroll.com/podcast/dotsie-bausch-355/
> 
> 
> ...


Another Rich Roll I need to find time to listen to.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Another Rich Roll I need to find time to listen to.


I listened to it a while ago. It is intense, she talks about her emotional struggles, the therapy, and coming through it all. She's very inspirational!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> But then there are people like Dotsie Bausch, for whom veganism was instrumental in her recovery from a very serious eating disorder.
> https://www.richroll.com/podcast/dotsie-bausch-355/
> 
> 
> ...


I got more the impression that it was kicking back against anything 'do this diet' rather than veganism _causing_ eating disorders. The fact that concentrating on any 'diet' that can have the effect of heightening an eating disorder. As someone who has struggled in the past, it is difficult when someone is telling you to 'eat this' and 'eat that' when what you actually want to do is eat not much


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Interesting read, thanks for posting. It does puzzle me why "veganuary" in particular is picked on though, there are far more people who follow a paleo/low carb diet pattern than there are vegans, some are very vocal on social/main stream media. We also have all of the healthy eating messages everywhere we look, cut back on sugar, cut back on processed foods, cut back on high saturated fat foods, cut back on alcohol. We can't stop promoting what we know promotes health and prevents disease, we can't stop talking about what is harming our planet and we can't stop talking about the sadistic crimes being committed against animals behind closed doors every single second (804,353,000 in the UK alone since 1st Jan this year) so I have no idea what the answer is


Veganuary was far higher profile on mainstream stuff that people following the Paleo etc diets. Unless you choose to follow them yourself.

It's not about stopping promoting it, it was just an alternative view that it might not be helpful, psychologically, for everyone.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MilleD said:


> The fact that concentrating on any 'diet' that can have the effect of heightening an eating disorder.


Eating disorders are not about being on a diet. When you get down to it, eating disorders aren't even about food.

And not to be obnoxiously pedantic, but veganism isn't a diet either.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MilleD said:


> Veganuary was far higher profile on mainstream stuff that people following the Paleo etc diets. Unless you choose to follow them yourself.
> 
> It's not about stopping promoting it, it was just an alternative view that it might not be helpful, psychologically, for everyone.


I appreciate that, just not sure where we go with the information that it "might not be helpful psychologically for everyone". Perhaps because I'm plant based/vegan I get to see masses of stuff posted by Paleo and more recently/worryingly carnivore dieters. They might not have a specific month but they are out there telling people carbohydrates will make them fat, make their teeth fall out, give them diabetes etc etc.

I thought this was interesting from the article you posted

Renee McGregor, a dietitian who specialises in eating disorders, agrees that a particular type of Instagram account can be toxic: "Individuals susceptible to developing an eating disorder are always looking for validation to maintain their behaviours because it makes them feel safe and in control, even if physically they are causing more harm than good. They will be drawn to following those that cater for their disordered needs, creating confirmation bias and making it harder for them to challenge their ED thoughts."

You know exactly the ones I'm talking about: most commonly found in the trendy area of town. A lunch date at a #wellness centre will trigger anxiety about what you 'should' be eating, and probably leave your tummy grumbling on the Tube home. You might get a bit gassy too. Go to Pizza Express and be done with it, ffs.

Renee says beware of joints that aggressively push burgers without the bun:

"I am inundated with clients who go out to eat at places that support their irrational fear of carbohydrates. It's ridiculous; we need carbohydrates for energy and it doesn't help people with eating disorders to cut one of the main food groups from their diet. Overall, focusing on building relationships - which so often happens during social eating - is so important, rather than worrying about the composition of your meal."

When I first became plant based the way I made an easy transition and have never wavered from it was by focusing on all the lovely/nutritious foods I was adding to my diet and not on anything I was taking out. No macronutrients are removed - we still eat protein, fat and carbohydrates but tons of micronutrients/phytonutrients are added in.

I don't have any experience of eating disorders so I have no idea if veganism triggers more people than say a thread showing what people ate for Christmas dinner showing mountains of food or a thread on cake making might. I tend to stay away from those threads for my own reasons so I hope other people who find them triggering/upsetting/annoying feel able to do the same.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I don’t have any experience of eating disorders so don’t want to disagree with the article....

But I think that veganism is more a lifestyle choice than a diet. It’s not about thinking I can’t eat that I can’t eat this (at least in my mind). I live my life without animal products to as best of my ability which isn’t all about my diet and it isn’t as strict as it seems as it’s to the best of my ability and what that means can be different for each person.

Also vegan isnt all about eating healthy etc you can eat vegan healthy or vegan junk it doesn’t matter. You can go to Pizza express and have a vegan meal....

Veganuary to me is about a different style of life. The article seems referring to it more as a fad diet...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Vanessa131 said:


> You just had to have signed up to their veganuary cause to get the emails, I'll see if they're still in my trash box, I'm not sure how long it takes for emails to be deleted in their.


I missed this somehow, sorry Vanessa. If you do still have them I'd be really interested to have a read. Thank you.



rona said:


> So the money behind all this is coming from
> Syngenta: who produces pesticides and poisons
> Monsata PCBs; DDT, GMO
> Bayer; insecticides and poison gas
> ...


I find it very hard to believe that Monsanto & co are behind this as the vast majority of crops grown are grown to feed livestock. Can you provide evidence?

A plant based diet cuts the use of the land by around 75% Rona.

.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Weirdly I was just watching something on Youtube about this the other day! Mic the vegan (who always backs up with plenty of research) was looking at a study that showed that actually vegans have a lower rate of eating disorders then omnivores! I think it is a more mindful way of eating, maybe that helps?
(Im sure what doesnt help is those extremists who try to sell all raw diets, fasting or 300 bananas for breakfast. If you suffer from disordered eating those kinds of rules and restrictions probably sound quite appealing).


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> Weirdly I was just watching something on Youtube about this the other day! Mic the vegan (who always backs up with plenty of research) was looking at a study that showed that actually vegans have a lower rate of eating disorders then omnivores! I think it is a more mindful way of eating, maybe that helps?
> (Im sure what doesnt help is those extremists who try to sell all raw diets, fasting or 300 bananas for breakfast. If you suffer from disordered eating those kinds of rules and restrictions probably sound quite appealing).


I've watched that too - its not very long if anyone wants to see it


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Dr Greger's video on the subject

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/are-vegetarians-at-risk-for-eating-disorders/


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Just back from a social event at another church. Struggling with missing cake and cheese (found a great chocolate - Vego) since trying again to be vegan and almost lost the plot this morning at the rubbish I had to listen to.....

Various plates of snacks were passed round so, for simplicity’s sake, I just said, “No thanks, I’m vegetarian” at yet another plate of sausage rolls being wafted under my nose. (And don’t get me started on the alcohol! “No thamks, I, am an alcoholic” would have been a real show-stopper!)

“Oh, you’re a vegetarian! Don’t you hear the teensy tiny lettuces cry when you cut them?....... Well, at least you’re not vegan: I don’t know what they eat!” On and on it went. I compromised with a couple of mushroom tartlets, which certainly weren’t vegan (I couldn’t face that conversation). 

So, experienced vegans, how am I to manage these situations when, because of my role, I can’t tell people what I actually think, and old ladies look pleadingly at me and say, “But I made it specially”?

Aaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> So, experienced vegans, how am I to manage these situations when, because of my role, I can't tell people what I actually think, and old ladies look pleadingly at me and say, "But I made it specially"?


Oh you get all sorts of practiced in dealing with these situations  
Go to "no thanks" versions:
"I already ate, thank you."
"My stomach has been funny, I'm giving it a rest."
"I'm trying to cut back on ____" use a less controversial ingredient, people generally accept things like sugar or carbs  If you're already slim, this one doesn't work as well and then you get in to awkward conversations about your weight 

Another trick in these social settings is to get a smaller plate, load it up with whatever food is there you can eat (here there's almost always a fruit or veggie tray). You load your plate up with those, and then when the other food gets offered say you don't have room for it on your plate now, but you'll get to that next. Or something like that. That one works pretty well too 

If the situation allows, I've been known with very persistent food pushers to take the food and then discreetly throw it away. I HATE wasting food, but sometimes people really won't take 'no' for an answer.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Just back from a social event at another church. Struggling with missing cake and cheese (found a great chocolate - Vego) since trying again to be vegan and almost lost the plot this morning at the rubbish I had to listen to.....
> 
> Various plates of snacks were passed round so, for simplicity's sake, I just said, "No thanks, I'm vegetarian" at yet another plate of sausage rolls being wafted under my nose. (And don't get me started on the alcohol! "No thamks, I, am an alcoholic" would have been a real show-stopper!)
> 
> ...


My suggestions
1. You can just be up front and say I am now vegan because I want there to be a planet left to pass on to the younger generations (thus avoiding the ethical debate)
2. You could tell a fib and say you are fasting.
3. Or an alternative fib that you have developed a food intolerance and while you try to get to the bottom of what it is you are following a strict elimination diet or a dairy and gluten free diet as that would eliminate most of the home baked goods.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You see people? Vegans have to actually lie about food to be accepted into society. And you wonder why sometimes they go ott about it. Seems being vegan is worse than being a smoker. Down the pub you can say ‘I’m just going out for a ciggie’ and not a word. Seems if you turn down a cake, or a sausage roll you face the wrath of the righteous and Piers Morgan. :Jawdrop


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

We always take our own food wherever we go so I just say no thanks we have just eaten. I suppose you could turn up with some vegan sausage rolls or cakes and offer them around for people to try.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> You see people? Vegans have to actually lie about food to be accepted into society. And you wonder why sometimes they go ott about it. Seems being vegan is worse than being a smoker. Down the pub you can say 'I'm just going out for a ciggie' and not a word. Seems if you turn down a cake, or a sausage roll you face the wrath of the righteous and Piers Morgan. :Jawdrop


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
The more I see of Piers Morgan, the more I think he has deep seeded issues that go far beyond his hate of vegans :Bag

But yes, it is telling how much you have to adjust as a vegan so as not to offend people with the food you're choosing not to eat. It's fascinating from a social-science perspective for sure!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

You could always say you are allergic to the proteins found in animal products and will become violently unwell if you eat them (so what if its made up pseudoscience!).
Personally I just tell people straight out Im vegan and if questioned then I point out the whole animal abuse issue to shut them up!LOL


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> You could always say you are allergic to the proteins found in animal products and will become violently unwell if you eat them (so what if its made up pseudoscience!).
> Personally I just tell people straight out Im vegan and if questioned then I point out the whole animal abuse issue to shut them up!LOL


That's actually a real thing!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/red-meat-allergy-transmitted-by-lone-star-ticks-on-the-rise/


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Just back from a social event at another church. Struggling with missing cake and cheese (found a great chocolate - Vego) since trying again to be vegan and almost lost the plot this morning at the rubbish I had to listen to.....
> 
> Various plates of snacks were passed round so, for simplicity's sake, I just said, "No thanks, I'm vegetarian" at yet another plate of sausage rolls being wafted under my nose. (And don't get me started on the alcohol! "No thamks, I, am an alcoholic" would have been a real show-stopper!)
> 
> ...


Where ever possibly take your own offerings, I take cakes, cheesecakes, cookies, `sausage` rolls etc to events. People are generally curious to try them and the conversation turns to how I made them and a general discussion about veganism rather than people getting huffy because I refuse a slice of cake. Generally though you just get used to smiling and nodding, I liken it in some ways to dog ownership, you know when you meet someone who comes out with some rubbish about training, breeding etc you get to know when its worth getting into a conversation because you might make a difference or when to save your time and energy and move swiftly on!


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. 

I think it particularly hit me because I am struggling at present, and today's experience just reinforced how difficult it is when out and about (I have no difficulty at all remaining vegan at home). Over here (UK) people love to feed their clergy, so for me to turn up with food for them would not have gone down well (leaving aside the fact that I work six days a week, fourteen hours a day, so have little time for baking!). I have some leave coming up, and love to go out and about to various places, but just know that it's going to be really difficult to find lunch/cake to go with my tea and coffee as, while restaurants have got quite good at providing for vegans, tea rooms, cafes and National Trust houses are really not up to speed. I am definitely a 'live to eat' person so am mourning the loss of how I like to spend my sparse free time!

Sorry - this all sounds a bit self-pitying!


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Elles said:


> You see people? Vegans have to actually lie about food to be accepted into society. And you wonder why sometimes they go ott about it. Seems being vegan is worse than being a smoker. Down the pub you can say 'I'm just going out for a ciggie' and not a word. Seems if you turn down a cake, or a sausage roll you face the wrath of the righteous and Piers Morgan. :Jawdrop


Exactly this ^^


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> I think it particularly hit me because I am struggling at present, and today's experience just reinforced how difficult it is when out and about (I have no difficulty at all remaining vegan at home). Over here (UK) people love to feed their clergy, so for me to turn up with food for them would not have gone down well (leaving aside the fact that I work six days a week, fourteen hours a day, so have little time for baking!). I have some leave coming up, and love to go out and about to various places, but just know that it's going to be really difficult to find lunch/cake to go with my tea and coffee as, while restaurants have got quite good at providing for vegans, tea rooms, cafes and National Trust houses are really not up to speed. I am definitely a 'live to eat' person so am mourning the loss of how I like to spend my sparse free time!
> 
> Sorry - this all sounds a bit self-pitying!


You might be surprised though as so many more eating establishments including tea rooms are offering vegan alternatives. If you google or look on Happy Cow before you go so you know where the nearest places are then perhaps have a tea and cake on route rather than be disappointed when you get to the NT house. Even they may have a menu on line that you can look at in advance. Or you could treat yourself to a batch of vegan cup cakes delivered to your home for your leave period and take one with you to have with your tea/coffee.

Cup cake delivery

https://veganantics.co.uk/

Vegan tea shops

https://veganwomble.co.uk/vegan-afternoon-teas/

https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/14-of-the-best-vegan-afternoon-teas-in-the-uk/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Also remember Rome wasn't built in a day, some people take longer to get where they want to be than others. If the eating out bit is a huge deal for you then take the pressure off yourself and be vegan at home and whenever you can be while you work on finding a way to fit it in with your lifestyle.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

One of my favourite vegan activists being interviewed on one of my favourite podcasts :Happy


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I’ve had to be a bit flexible as we have an oatly milk thief in the shared office space I use! It’s nice to be popular I think...?!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

If anyone wants to be involved with funding the making of a new plant based documentary/film please have a look at the trailer

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/foodforthought


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/vegan-pie-supreme-champion-british-pie-awards

This is the first time in the 11 year history of the British Pie Awards (900 entrants) that an animal free pie has won the top award. It sounds lovely "curried sweet potato, butternut squash and spinach" and I agree with plant based news this really does indicate that veganism is entering the mainstream of British food. The fact that it is made by a butcher shows how the animal product industry are realising they have got to make changes to meet demand.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Very inspiring article. Please take a few minutes to watch the video - its very inspiring

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/tv-host-steve-harvey-vegan-diet-changed-health


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

New film "The end of meat" being released 12 March

short trailer


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Very inspiring article. Please take a few minutes to watch the video - its very inspiring
> 
> https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/tv-host-steve-harvey-vegan-diet-changed-health


Love this quote by Borges
"Every time we eat, we are either fueling disease or feeding health," Borges added. "We are not at the mercy of our genes...Disease is not what's hereditary - it's the habits that are hereditary. Change your habits and you change your destiny."


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Love this quote by Borges
> "Every time we eat, we are either fueling disease or feeding health," Borges added. "We are not at the mercy of our genes...Disease is not what's hereditary - it's the habits that are hereditary. Change your habits and you change your destiny."


I love that quote too, its so true and so obvious but so resisted.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Very naughty but decided in the name of research I just had to try one of these (I have non vegan family visiting at the end of the month so want to be able to offer vegan alternatives to the food they are used to eating). Wow wow wow is all I can say. I would never have known I was eating a non dairy ice cream. Not something I plan on eating regularly as the saturated fat content is :Jawdrop but good to know they are around. One more nail in the coffin of the dairy industry.

https://veganuary.com/blog/vegan-magnum-ice-cream-launches/


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Very naughty but decided in the name of research I just had to try one of these (I have non vegan family visiting at the end of the month so want to be able to offer vegan alternatives to the food they are used to eating). Wow wow wow is all I can say. I would never have known I was eating a non dairy ice cream. Not something I plan on eating regularly as the saturated fat content is :Jawdrop but good to know they are around. One more nail in the coffin of the dairy industry.
> 
> https://veganuary.com/blog/vegan-magnum-ice-cream-launches/


My husband came home with these for me to try, I must say they are very nice. As you say not something I would want to eat regularly but it is nice to be able to tell people that would like to go non dairy but couldn`t give up ice cream, there is a very good vegan version.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

wow, those Magnums do look nice. Something to bear in mind for when Im having a cheat day!
Nice to see so many vegan options becoming available. I think alot of people go plant based and use the processed foods as a way to transition slowly....that way they can still have their burgers and ice cream and dont feel deprived at first.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Very naughty but decided in the name of research I just had to try one of these (I have non vegan family visiting at the end of the month so want to be able to offer vegan alternatives to the food they are used to eating). Wow wow wow is all I can say. I would never have known I was eating a non dairy ice cream. Not something I plan on eating regularly as the saturated fat content is :Jawdrop but good to know they are around. One more nail in the coffin of the dairy industry.
> 
> https://veganuary.com/blog/vegan-magnum-ice-cream-launches/


Some of the vegan ice creams, especially those with coconut or cashew milk are amazing. Ben & Jerry's of course does a fantastic job with theirs and I like that they don't use palm oil either, some vegan ice creams do and that's something I purposefully try to avoid.

Honestly, I actually like vegan ice cream now more than dairy ice cream. I had a small taste of dairy ice cream the other day and it coated my mouth strangely and I just didn't like it. But I'll tuck in to B&J vegan options no problem  That was my treat after my 25K last weekend  Yes, not something to eat regularly for sure!


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Interesting thread. I'm an omnivore myself but I do tend to be selective about what meat I eat. I only eat beef for special occasions. I don't see anything wrong with being a vegetarian or vegan, however and doing so to enhance animal welfare or protect the environment is certainly a good reason. I can see how being a vegan/vegetarian would be difficult here in the states. I rarely see the food mentioned in restaurants and I only occasionally see it in grocery stores. I do wonder if restaurants avoid even mentioning vegetarian and vegan food in menus for fear of loosing costumers. I'd hazard to guess that vegetarians are an extreme minority here.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

Those ice creams do look nice but there would waaay too much sugar in them for me. I make my own vegan ice cream, I got a recipe book ages ago, and they are really nice, you wouldn’t know they were dairy free.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DogLover1981 said:


> Interesting thread. I'm an omnivore myself but I do tend to be selective about what meat I eat. I only eat beef for special occasions. I don't see anything wrong with being a vegetarian or vegan, however and doing so to enhance animal welfare or protect the environment is certainly a good reason. I can see how being a vegan/vegetarian would be difficult here in the states. I rarely see the food mentioned in restaurants and I only occasionally see it in grocery stores. I do wonder if restaurants avoid even mentioning vegetarian and vegan food in menus for fear of loosing costumers. I'd hazard to guess that vegetarians are an extreme minority here.


Perhaps it depends on which part of the states you live. My sister is in Texas and gets by really easily as a vegetarian. I know of many vegans in California and Arizona. @O2.0 is also in the states and seems to get by pretty well.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Matrod said:


> Those ice creams do look nice but there would waaay too much sugar in them for me. I make my own vegan ice cream, I got a recipe book ages ago, and they are really nice, you wouldn't know they were dairy free.


Yep way too much of everything. I usually have fruit after dinner but after eating this I noticed I was hungry much quicker and had that restless urge to go and browse in the fridge to find something else to eat which I never do normally. I'll be sticking to fruit in future


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I’d buy them for my DS but couldn’t trust myself not to be tempted 

The fact that finding dairy and egg free desserts is so hard is actually what stops me eating them!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

DogLover1981 said:


> Interesting thread. I'm an omnivore myself but I do tend to be selective about what meat I eat. I only eat beef for special occasions. I don't see anything wrong with being a vegetarian or vegan, however and doing so to enhance animal welfare or protect the environment is certainly a good reason. I can see how being a vegan/vegetarian would be difficult here in the states. I rarely see the food mentioned in restaurants and I only occasionally see it in grocery stores. I do wonder if restaurants avoid even mentioning vegetarian and vegan food in menus for fear of loosing costumers. I'd hazard to guess that vegetarians are an extreme minority here.


Not as much of a minority as you might think  
Most of us go about our lives and you would never know we're vegan  
OH and I ate out yesterday at a Greek restaurant totally vegan, delicious. Most Greek, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Indian, and Mexican restaurants are easy to veganize the options. My go-to chain restaurants when travelling is Moe's Southwest grill, Jason's Deli, or Chili's though there is a great app called Happy Cow that lists vegan friendly restaurants in your area - good old google helps out a lot too. 
I shop at a regular supermarket that has lots of vegan options even here in the southeast. Though honestly I don't really use a lot of vegan products, just whole plant foods. I go to Sprouts once a week for bulk items, their prices are amazing. And of course Farmer's Markets in season.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Not as much of a minority as you might think
> Most of us go about our lives and you would never know we're vegan
> OH and I ate out yesterday at a Greek restaurant totally vegan, delicious. Most Greek, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Indian, and Mexican restaurants are easy to veganize the options. My go-to chain restaurants when travelling is Moe's Southwest grill, Jason's Deli, or Chili's though there is a great app called Happy Cow that lists vegan friendly restaurants in your area - good old google helps out a lot too.
> I shop at a regular supermarket that has lots of vegan options even here in the southeast. Though honestly I don't really use a lot of vegan products, just whole plant foods. I go to Sprouts once a week for bulk items, their prices are amazing. And of course Farmer's Markets in season.


I did a search of the net after reading this. Technically the vast majority of people aren't vegetarians but it is still an impressive number. Apparently the UK and the USA are about the same percentage wise. I forgot too that there are people who are vegetarians as a part of their religious beliefs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#United_States


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