# It's time for a trainer......



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Well, we had a lovely weekend at my parents with their 2 Golden Retriever girls, only this time Goldie was even more 'humpy' than last time and when we went for a walk he was mental.

In all fairness, the place we turned up too, to walk there was like 1000 dogs off lead, which I wasn't expecting, we entered the green bit and it was flooded with them.

This sent Goldie's reactivity off the scale and as he was on the lead it was worse.
He got quite aggressive with a couple of dogs that came over to him, I wonder if he was a bit 'Piss off these are my girls' ?

This was all quite a blow from my other thread last week on how good he was being. I also know that situation set him up for failure, so feel like crap for that happening. 

We took him to a quiet bit and let him cool off, then the rest of the walk he was better, still reacting but not aggressivly and when we stopped for lunch by a playground there were a few dogs, he was interested but listening to us and coming back over to us when told.

But anyway, I am going to book him in to be neutered soon, so his testosterone fuelled behaviour will calm down. He is 15 months now, and I would say he is definately fully matured!
Hopefully he won't be as humpy with the girls (I do still expect some). Then I will see a trainer to try and sort the reactivity.

But what I need is for him not to just get used to the dogs at the training place, then still react when we go somewhere new and see new dogs.
(I have read this happens).

Will keep all updated as I know this is a common issue and thought it would be helpful for some to see the results.


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## Buzzard (Aug 10, 2012)

I would probably see a trainer and establish the cause of the reactivity. Sometimes neutering can worsen things if the dogs agression and reactivity is anxiety based.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Why don't you see a trainer now?


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Thought it would be best to get him done and start a fresh.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Why don't you see a trainer now?


I'm going to have a google and find one and see what they reckon.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I would see a trainer before neutering personally. If his reactivity is anxiety based then neutering him could well make it worse. And neutering is far from the cure all for problems like reactivity and humping people often seem to think. Spen humps when situations are over exciting, neutering won't change that.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

What? That could make him worse??


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2015)

Agreed, trainer first, neutering - if at all, after the trainer eval.

Can you share what general area you are in? Someone may be able to recommend a good trainer.

Honestly, going to a trainer isnt really a last resort type thing, only when youre at your wits end. Training classes are fantastic for all dogs, puppy classes and good manners classes... Theyre a fun, social way to get some good insight in to how your dog is doing training-wise and possibly some help *before* problems arise. 

I always tell anyone with a new dog to sign up for either a puppy class (not puppy free for all socialization but a structured class) or a basic manners/obedience class with an older dog. If nothing else you get to have someone who knows what theyre talking about observe you and your dog interacting and give you good feedback.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Thanks Ouesi, I am in King's Lynn. I have just emailed this one Dog Training Classes but they seem to have a waiting list.
Would be great if anyone knows a trainer near me.

I am at my wits end as just as I get him to a good place and he is doing really well, we have a bad event. Which in all fairness wasn't his fault as you can see above. 
I think it's a good idea to get some help though.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Agree with all of the above. Definitely worth finding a trainer you like. Doesn't need to break the bank and a couple of private sessions might really get you on track. I have a slightly reactive dog and it's great having a trainer who knows him well - we've had a few private sessions but mostly done classes which are great for getting him to focus around other dogs. We've done obedience, gundog and agility and all have been fab. As the trainer knows him well I'm confident that he'll be given space if he needs it and the experience will be positive for us.

Also agree with not neutering until discussed with someone experienced in animal behaviour. We have very strongly been advised NOT to get our dog neutered as his behaviours are anxiety fuelled and it's highly likely that neutering would make him worse. As it happens he went through a humpy stage but that has pretty much completely settled down now without any intervention.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

How far can you travel?

These 2 training centres I would recommend but not sure if they are too far .....

wtdt-eastanglia.co.uk

Dog Training, Behaviour and Classes near Ely, Cambridge


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Thanks Cleo, they are a bit far really. 
I need something after 8pm as I work all day 5 days a week, then have a family to deal with. So earliest I can leave home to get somewhere would be 7:45pm.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Muttly said:


> I am at my wits end as just as I get him to a good place and he is doing really well, we have a bad event. Which in all fairness wasn't his fault as you can see above.
> I think it's a good idea to get some help though.


Lol, unfortunately progress isn't linear  You'll have good days and then you'll have a really bad day and want to sit and cry because it feels like all your hard work has been for nothing and you're back at square one. Honestly, chances are you're not, it's just a minor setback in a long road.

Do you keep any sort of journal about his behaviour? I found that to be the best piece of advice I've ever had when dealing with something like reactivity, keep a log of some sort. Doesn't have to be lengthy, just a general outline of what happened that day, how dog reacted, what he reacted to and that sort of thing. It enables you to look back and see just how far you've come. I've kept a general one with Spen and it's nice to look back over the 3 years of my blog and see how far we've come


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I have actually decided to start one and try to back date as far as I can remember. (was actually your blog that gave me the idea, had another read the other day )


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Another link for you Muttly of local trainers - Local Dog Trainers in Norfolk UK

Good luck!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> Another link for you Muttly of local trainers - Local Dog Trainers in Norfolk UK
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you very much! I have one contender on there that sounds really good, need to find out prices.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Muttly said:


> I have actually decided to start one and try to back date as far as I can remember. (was actually your blog that gave me the idea, had another read the other day )


Wish I'd done an online blog with Rupert to be honest. As it is I've lost my journal of his progress, or lack of progress in some areas. Well worth doing imo. Main thing is to remember to update when things are going well as well as when they're not going so well otherwise you just end up with a skewed account.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Muttly,
does Goldie display any symptoms of severe anxiety whatever?
Does he bolt from friendly strangers, avoid being petted or handled, resist the vet & growl?
Is he difficult to groom, dislikes restraint, growls or stiffens when brushed, hides under the bed or behind
objects when he sees the brush in someone's hand?

Does he run AWAY when there are loud sounds - cars backfiring, fireworks, thnder, doors slammed?
Or a normal response -- flinch, & look toward the source of the sound?

Does he cringe along behind U on walks, shrinking & subdued, tail, head & ears all down?

He sounds - from what i've seen of Ur posts overall, not just this one - like a normal, outgoing young dog.
Unless U post something to the contrary in response to my Q, i'll assume that's precisely what he is:
a normal, friendly, sociable young dog.


Muttly said:


> ...a lovely weekend at my parents with their 2 GR girls, only this time Goldie was even more 'humpy' than last,
> & when we went for a walk, he was mental.
> 
> In all fairness, [on our] walk, there [were] 1000 dogs off lead, which I didn't expect ... the green... was
> ...


Yes, it's a very common pattern.
Neutering will definitely help reduce mounting / humping, & in most M-dogs, both those activities stop once
they're desexed, with the exception of occasional mounting / humping in play, which is a now-&-then thing,
& rarely causes bad feeling between the dogs involved - owners may find it embarrassing, but it's also low-key,
not the compulsive FAP it is in intact-Ms, & often can be stopped before it even starts with a quiet word.


Buzzard said:


> ...
> Sometimes *neutering can worsen things, if a dog's aggro & reactivity is anxiety-based*.


Please cite at least 2 separate research studies, from peer-reviewed journals, that support this?


Sarah1983 said:


> I'd see a trainer before neutering...
> *If his reactivity is anxiety-based,... neutering him could well make it worse.
> 
> And neutering is far from the cure all for problems like reactivity and humping people often seem to think.
> ...


*
Is Spencer neutered?

If not, then U can't make that statement; if U want to know what difference if any it might make,
have him temporarily neutered with an injection.

Meanwhile, over 60% of the intake in the many municipal shelters in VA where I volunteered, evaluated
dogs for prospective adopters, sought SD candidates, etc, WERE young, intact-Ms, between 7 & 10-MO,
whose favorite default-behavior around humans or other dogs was to hump when excited - which meant when
U came to take that 9-MO Lab for a walk, all 75# or more of him was wrapped around Ur thigh, clasped firmly
& pumping up & down like a star-athlete in a push-up contest.  :thumbdown: What a PITA.
Peeling the blasted dog off Ur leg was a 1st-imperative, if U were going to WALK anywhere.

Every one of them, teen-dogs & adults, was neutered before adoption - & every one of them stopped
humping legs, & within a week to 10-days, the vast majority also stopped MOUNTING other dogs - even when
they were over-excited -- with no B-Mod needed. We're talking 9 of 10 dogs, desex only, simply stopped.

Some - only about 1 in 5 M-dogs - were adults past 2-YO, & they, too, were often intact. The intact-M adults
also mounted other dogs, many of them habitually, but were blessedly less-likely to mount & hump humans. :thumbup1:
They, too, were neutered before adoption - & they, too, STOPPED mounting & humping with very, very few exceptions,
even when over-excited.

I can say this because quite a few of those dogs were pulled & placed by various rescues I knew [PACC,
K9 New Life, etc], & many attended manners classes with their adopters, or required some help with transitions
from shelter to life in a house - so I got to see them post-desex & post-adoption.


Muttly said:



What? [Neutering] could make him worse??

Click to expand...

I'm truly sick & tired of this blatant assertion - NO, neutering a humpy young-adult M dog will not "make
him worse", that's pure invention. I never head this myth before joining PF-uk, & it only became popular
in the USA recently - when the AKC, the largest purebred registry in America, became alarmed at the prospect of
losing REVENUE as more & more cities & counties passed ordinances that required any breeder to pay for a
license, & also required all NON-breeding pets to be desexed, usually by 6 to 7-MO. The AKC depends upon not
just the show-fancy or working-breeders registering litters to generate their multimillion-dollar budget, but much,
much more on Jane & Joe Public registering their pets' litters, which were the bulk of the AKC's registry.

There aren't that many professionals who breed dogs - show kennels, hunting kennels, working dogs. There are 
millions of pet-owners, & THOSE dogs' litters were the money-engine for the AKC.
That's when cr*p about desex "ruining dogs' joints" & similar poppycock began to circulate in the rumor mill,
& this version - "It makes scared dogs MORE scared..." began to gain traction.

Why is it that spooky FEMALE dogs are immune, & can be spayed with impunity?... Is that logical?
Why would dogs carry their only source of confidence in their scrotums? :skep: this is very simplistic,
reductionist, & bizarre.

I'll be happy to find some studies that explain the behavioral consequences of desex for M dogs.

meanwhile, if U are genuinely concerned that he's at some kind of weird risk, get him CHEMICALLY desexed
with a temporary injection; wait a month. THEN - having satisfied Urself that he's not going to collapse when
his primary testosterone source is gone [his testes], U can schedule a surgical desex.

Personally, i'd say it's a needless waste of money, but if it makes U feel secure in Ur decision, then it's also
a worthwhile extra bill to incur. :thumbup: Get the injection, see the results - then go for permanent desex.
.
.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

APDT-uk is always a good, safe, first source; members are assessed before inclusion, & no aversive tools
or coercive methods are permitted.

Local Dog Trainers in Norfolk UK - APDT
Local Dog Trainers in Norfolk UK

look up the whole membership via local-search:
Local Dog Trainers - APDT
APDT UK -
.
.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> Muttly,
> does Goldie display any symptoms of severe anxiety whatever?
> Does he bolt from friendly strangers, avoid being petted or handled, resist the vet & growl? _*Nope, he loves people and loves a fuss at the Vets*_
> Is he difficult to groom, dislikes restraint, growls or stiffens when brushed, hides under the bed or behind objects when he sees the brush in someone's hand? _*He loves being brushed (he used to try and chew the brush) and I can even hairdryer him after a bath, he will just sit there*_
> ...


I had never really thought neutering was NOT an option if you are not breeding as all the Goldens my parents had were and no behaviour, humpy issues. Until a Vet nurse I saw said she hasn't and said why bother if there are no issues.

Goldie doesn't hump in general, only occasionally my step-daughter when they are playing, he gets over excited and she is usually rolling around on the floor. He doesn't try it with me or my OH? 
He only gets humpy with my parents Golden Retriever girls, and one of them has told him off a few times, so he doesn't really bother with her, but the other just sits and takes it, so he was humping her all weekend.

If you see Goldie out on a walk with me, where there will be the odd dog, then he is easily controllable now, if you then saw him at the weekend as I explained in my OP, you would think he was a totally different dog.
This is the only time I see anxiety, other dogs too close.

I have this big worry about Testicular Cancer and wanted to ask, he is 15 months, will his balls still be growing/going through any changes? As the Vet said to check them for lumps or changes and want to make sure I'm not being paranoid if they seem a little different sometimes?

Goldie's history is first owner brought home at 8 weeks, taken to his home where the cats would gang up on him. So when she left him he was in the cage, he was also crated at night.
Then she decided he was a pain and gave him to her friend who locked him in a cage 24hours a day  When she found this out, she went and got him back and kept him at hers (all this time minimal walks, zero socialisation and the only training he had was house training). 
Then we met him at 7 months and that was it.
(thought his history might help)

Other than this dog reactivity/aggression he is a sweet, loving, happy dog.

Thanks you so much L4L for your detailed response.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Is Spencer neutered?
> 
> If not, then U can't make that statement; if U want to know what difference if any it might make,
> have him temporarily neutered with an injection.
> .


Nope. And I'm not going down either the permanent surgery route or the "temporary" (know several people whose dogs have changed for the worse on it and that effect has NOT worn off after the injection has) injection route in order to experiment on something that is pretty much a non issue. The situations Spen will hump in these days are very specific and to be honest, are situations I'm not comfortable putting him in anyway even if they didn't trigger humping. Things like overly rowdy play with a group of dogs or prolonged on leash greetings. I don't believe neutering will change what seems to me to be a displacement behaviour rather than a sexual behaviour. I can also stop him before he starts with a quiet word, it's far from the compulsive behaviour you seem convinced it is in entire males. Neutered males can be just as bad with it I'm afraid.

As for neutering stopping humping...if that's the case why do so many people get their dogs neutered for that very reason only for it not to make the blindest bit of difference? Whereas most of us who actually put in the effort and train and manage if our dogs show signs of being humpy seem to be able to keep entire males without them humping everything in sight? Or any of the other problems so often put down to a dog being entire. I do think some dogs need to be neutered. And if an owner wants to neuter that's their choice. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the "off with his balls!" cry in general


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Not sure if there are any trainers here that are near you?

Members have to abide by a strict Code of Practice re welfare of dogs

All members are assessed comprehensively on both theory and practical and it is the only scheme with a recognised external body as a verifier, the City and Guilds.

List of Accredited Instructors â€¢ The Kennel Club


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Nope. And I'm not going down either the permanent surgery route or the "temporary" (know several people whose dogs have changed for the worse on it and that effect has NOT worn off after the injection has) injection route in order to experiment on something that is pretty much a non issue. The situations Spen will hump in these days are very specific and to be honest, are situations I'm not comfortable putting him in anyway even if they didn't trigger humping. Things like overly rowdy play with a group of dogs or prolonged on leash greetings. I don't believe neutering will change what seems to me to be a displacement behaviour rather than a sexual behaviour. I can also stop him before he starts with a quiet word, it's far from the compulsive behaviour you seem convinced it is in entire males. Neutered males can be just as bad with it I'm afraid.
> 
> As for neutering stopping humping...if that's the case why do so many people get their dogs neutered for that very reason only for it not to make the blindest bit of difference? Whereas most of us who actually put in the effort and train and manage if our dogs show signs of being humpy seem to be able to keep entire males without them humping everything in sight? Or any of the other problems so often put down to a dog being entire. I do think some dogs need to be neutered. And if an owner wants to neuter that's their choice. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the "off with his balls!" cry in general


I too am in the "neutering doesnt stop humping" camp. Ive known way too many neutered males (usually labs and goldies) who are humpy humpersons when they get excited to believe that neutering is a panacea for humping. 
Id say you get better results from simply working on the humping behavior than lopping off the balls.

And like Sarah said, sure, if the owner wants to neuter, fine, but dont expect it to fix much of anything behavior-wise.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Muttly said:


> I'd never really thought neutering was NOT an option if you aren't breeding ...all the Goldens my parents had
> were [desexed], & [had] no behaviour, humpy issues.
> Until a Vet nurse I saw said she hasn't [desexed her own dogs?], & said why bother, if there are no issues?


I'm surprised a vet-nurse would skip S/N, as i'm sure she's seen her share of M dogs who get into a fight
& need a couple dozen stitches & 2 or 3 drains - I know i have, as a trainer.

It's the owner's choice to desex or not, but for anyone who's a novice owner with a 1st-Male Pup,
i always recommend desex before the 9th-month, in order to skip the Super-Male period when the teen-dog
secretes *5 to 7 times the testosterone circulating in an intact adult-male dog of 12 to 15-MO or older.*

If U've reared F pups into adulthood successfully, that doesn't mean that Ur first foray into raising a sociable,
compliant, responsive Male dog from puphood to adult will go as well. Incredible distractability, M : M
displays [posturing, hard-eyed stares, neck-over T-postures, & other provocative behaviors], & just plain
Pain-In-The-Butt behaviors like marking every vertical surface, flirting with every F of any age whatever her
actual reproductive-status [puppies, spayed, intact, who cares], or just humping everything & everyone,
from a hassock or other inanimate objects to humans, the cat, & other M or F dogs of all ages & sizes, gets really,
really _*old...*_ fast!

The novelty of a PITA young male, high as a kite on massive amounts of testosterone, stales quickly.

It's not the dog's fault; he's utterly innocent, & in the grip of powerful instinctive impulses. However...
plenty of past clients have wanted to throttle their male-teen, nonetheless, & i could empathize with that
impulse. The pup with an 85% reliable recall, even under distractions & at a long distance, suddenly can't
even turn his head when spoken to, while on a 6-ft leash, if another dog is visible or audible within 200-ft. :yikes:
And when he humps every dog in class, or every dog in the park, it's not a highlight of the owner's day. :blush2:

an experienced owner who's lived-with a least 1 adult intact-M has at least some idea of the Mgmt needed
to keep intact-dogs out of trouble - I-E, watch for provocative signals, look out for clueless or careless owners
of intact-Fs who may be entering or exiting estrus [*especially* pubertal-F pups!], monitor his behavior
vis-a-vis other M-dogs [intact adults, teen-twit Super-Males, & male pups he might be tempted to intimidate],
& so on.

Inexperienced owners with a 1st-time male puppy are often over their heads by the time he's 12-WO & humping
other puppies, & it goes downhill quickly from there. :nonod:


Muttly said:


> Goldie doesn't hump in general, *only occasionally my stepdaughter* when they play, he gets over-excited
> & *she's usually rolling around on the floor*. He doesn't try it with me or my OH.


i'd suggest a new Rule:
from now on, stepdaughter plays with Goldie only if she's upright on 2 legs, or sits on a chair, sofa, etc.
If she can't or won't play by that rule, he's on leash, on a long-line HELD by an adult, or out of the room / area.

Giving him a floor-level target is much too tempting. It sets him up to fail. 


Muttly said:


> He only gets humpy with my parents' GR girls; one of them has told him off a few times, he doesn't really bother
> with her, but the other just [tolerates his harassment], so he humped her all weekend.


Put him on a long-line - a light 10 to 15-ft cord indoors, & a longer 15 to 30-ft polypropylene or other water-
proof, rinse-able long-line outdoors. As soon as he starts flirting with the all-too-tolerant F, drag him away with
zero comment; don't scold, don't call him, nothin'. Just interrupt by bringing him in hand-over-hand, & yes -
it will need to be done 20 or 30 times before the penny drops, & he starts to exhibit SOME self-control. 
Just outlast his persistence! - think of all the upper-body strength U'll build. :thumbup1:

To make it easier on BOTH of U, fit him for a sturdy, well-made *H-harness* & clip the long-line *to his chest*.
If a metal ring joins the 3 straps there [2 over the shoulder / neck, 1 coming up between the forelegs], hurrah! -
simply clip the long-line there, & U're off. If not, no worries - some harnesses are joined only by a loop
of webbing. That's OK - buy a *locking* carabiner at any outdoor or camping supply; buy any color,
or basic-black in powdercoat, or S/S - it should be rated for a 100# person, this gives U plenty of safety.

Slip the OPEN carabiner under the 3-strap junction diagonally, & LOCK it. It stays there; unclip the leash or
long-line to let him run with the harness on, don't un-lock the carabiner & remove it. That avoids the chance
that anyone will accidentally forget to LOCK it, clip the leash or line on, he pulls just once... & there goes
the dog, the carabiner falls to the ground, & U're in a panic situation. :yikes: If the carabiner just dangles,
locked-on, there's no chance of such accidents. :thumbsup:

Any decent, durable, 1-inch to 1.5-inch wide webbing H-harness will do; U can even save $$, & buy one used.
Be sure it *fits* snug & smooth - he's a double-coated breed, expect to see hair bristle out from under those
straps, & when U take it off, 'tracks' will be visible where the strap squushed his coat. [As soon as he shakes-off,
they'll disappear.] The harness should be snug-enuf that NO fingers slide between him & the straps, & also it
shouldn't slip sideways if tugged toward U, one hand on the neck-strap & the other on the heart-girth [same side].
Be sure there are at least 3 buckles [or 2 buckles & 1 slide], & NO buckles should get into the armpit or impede
the elbows! - the skin of the armpit is very thin, easily pinched or chafed, & can be rubbed raw by a buckle. 

CraigsList, GumTree, e-Bay, etc, are all good potential sources of used gear; so are consignment or used-clothing
stores, ask if they have any pet-equipment when U enter, & U can also tell them U're looking for a harness.

With a front-clip harness, his own momentum is converted to an A-r-c of thrust, so he does the work,
& there's no brute-force hauling on the dog. To improve Ur own body-mechanics, keep Ur wrists & arms
as straight as possible - elbows, too - & turn Ur shoulders AND TORSO to move him toward U.


Muttly said:


> If you see Goldie out on a walk with me, [encountering] the odd dog, he's easily controllable, now; [while] if you'd
> seen him [this past] weekend, as I explained in my OP, you'd think he was a totally different dog.
> This is the only time I see anxiety, "[multiple] other dogs [are] too close".


Teach him a happy, very-highly rewarding Emergency-U-Turn, away from all other dogs; get it fluent, use a cheery,
_"let's go!..."_ or something similar, & once he's learnt it, invoke it often when no other dogs are around.

If he's a foodaholic, fine - use 100% protein treats as rewards [freeze-dried liver, lamb-lung, whitefish...
or chicken-breast, tuna flakes, etc] - but if he loves PLAY, getting him hooked on Super-Tug could be even better. 

Just be sure to teach him a default "drop" before the tug-games become intense, so that all U need do is
go deadweight, & he instantly drops the tuggee. Then U can safely get into truly-insane tug, where U lift his front
off the ground using his teeth / grip - he'll love it, the wilder, the better. :laugh: But build to that - don't start
at that intensity, before he has manners.


Muttly said:


> I have this big worry about Testicular Cancer... he is 15-MO, [are his testes] still growing/ changing?
> ...the Vet said to check them for lumps or changes, & want to be sure I'm not being paranoid if they seem
> a little different, sometimes?


testicular cancer is not common in dogs - & yes, get used to examining him for hard spots, swelling, odd bumps,
any strange pucker inward, etc. The spermatic cord makes a wiggly line, & there are ligaments that support &
connect the testes internally - get to know what's normal. HEAT, especially in one area, hardness, lumps that go
outward or depressions that pucker inward, are all things to ask about.

His testes are full-grown, they shouldn't change size, shape, or texture - one is typically slightly smaller, often that's
the left one, but that's consistent in an individual dog; if his SMALLER testis becomes the same size as the other,
larger testis, again - that's not normal.

Scrotum injuries bleed a lot, so if he hooks himself on a fence or hits something while jumping, it will
bleed - internally or externally, depending. Ice any scrotal injury ASAP, 20-mins on, 20-mins off, to reduce
swelling & slow bleeding - if he's actively bleeding, go straight to the vet. Put pressure on his groin, to help it
clot, & don't REMOVE the bloody cloth - ADD more cloth if it begins to soak thru. U don't want to pull the clot
away, U want it to stay in place.


Muttly said:


> Goldie's history:
> 1st owner brought home at 8-WO... the cats [in tht home] would gang up on him. So when she left him, he was
> [crated in the daytime;, he was also crated at night.
> ...she decided he was a pain, gave him to her friend - who locked him in a cage 24-hours a day
> ...


Considering how much he missed in his primary socialization period [4-Wo to 12-WO] & then his secondary
[12-WO to 6-MO], he's turned out amazingly well. Basically, he's an undersocialized oversexed booby -
he can't cope with loads of other dogs all at once, he's a social klutz when he's overwhelmed, & his groin -
when his urge to hump hits - wipes out all other brain-functions.  Sounds like most of the men i've met
between the onset of adolescence at 12 to 14-YO, & 30-YO or so, when they achieve some minimal control over
their sexual impulses, daydreams of sex, instant lust at sight of ______ [whatever bit of female anatomy],
& other major distractions. :laugh:

U can work to develop his dog-social skills; find him a few very tolerant buddies, preferably a bit BIGGER
than he is, who'll play with him, but won't let him be a bully or act obnoxious. U don't want them to shut him
down - but when he's being a PITA, they'll cold-shoulder him & won't play, or just grump at him firmly -
a hard stare & teeth shown with a growl, or similar.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I too am in the "neutering doesnt stop humping" camp. Ive known way too many neutered males (usually labs and goldies) who are humpy humpersons when they get excited to believe that neutering is a panacea for humping.
> Id say you get better results from simply working on the humping behavior than lopping off the balls.
> 
> And like Sarah said, sure, if the owner wants to neuter, fine, but dont expect it to fix much of anything behavior-wise.


My Toby (lab x) is a typical example of this, he gets very excited in play with other (male) dogs which usually results in him humping. His notes from the rescue indicates that he was neutered at 8mths when he went to his first owners ( I'm his second) .... he's nearly 12yrs now so I doubt he's going to change!

I'm not planning on getting Archer neutered (he's 10mths old next week). He hasn't shown any signs of humping ... yet!! But if he did I would rather try & work on that than getting him done.

My vets were fine with me deciding this, even though they are doing neutering for a reduced rate (I had a fab puppy pack from them) despite me being a first time puppy owner


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

We must meet some very different entire males because not one of mine or any of the ones I've known well have behaved anything like L4L describes  Yeah, adolescence can be a bitch at times but even during adolescence none have been the demon dog described in that post.

Can they be? Oh I have no doubt they can but to say that all or even most are like that is a gross over generalisation imo. And neutered males can be as bad I'm afraid. People neuter to put a stop to those problems and it does nothing because they still need to put training and management in. Neutered males (and females for that matter!) are just as likely to be obnoxious thugs as entire males in my experience.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> I'm surprised a vet-nurse would skip S/N, as i'm sure she's seen her share of M dogs who get into a fight
> & need a couple dozen stitches & 2 or 3 drains - I know i have, as a trainer.
> 
> It's the owner's choice to desex or not, but for anyone who's a novice owner with a 1st-Male Pup,
> ...




Thanks again L4L!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> We must meet some very different entire males because not one of mine or any of the ones I've known well have behaved anything like L4L describes  Yeah, adolescence can be a bitch at times but even during adolescence none have been the demon dog described in that post.
> 
> Can they be? Oh I have no doubt they can but to say that all or even most are like that is a gross over generalisation imo. And neutered males can be as bad I'm afraid. People neuter to put a stop to those problems and it does nothing because they still need to put training and management in. Neutered males (and females for that matter!) are just as likely to be obnoxious thugs as entire males in my experience.


I have to say my experiences pretty much match yours too.
Maybe it's a location thing?


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I have to say my experiences pretty much match yours too.
> Maybe it's a location thing?


Well, I'm in the US and have not encountered hoards of testostrone poisoned males crazed with desire, humping every surface and posturing with every male.

In fact it's fairly common at dog shows for intact dogs to have to handle being in the same ring with a bitch in heat and other dogs and bitches in the mix. 
When a dog acts up, it's seen as a training issue. Sure there is an understanding that hormones play a role, but it's dealt with by training, not surgery.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Just to say guys my dog isn't the sex crazed male described either (which I replied to L4L and explained) but with his lack of socialisation at crucial stages, lots of training is needed for Goldster. I understand in my original OP I said 'neuter first then get a trainer', but I've learned different from this thread alone.

I have seen crazy humpy male dogs yes, but is that because they are not neutered? I don't know, I would think it is also lack of training too.

I am thinking they both play a part and would not neuter Goldie on the assumption that it will cure him. My only thought was it would reduce the urges and lessen the need to intimidate younger males (if that is what he is doing). 

My parents 10 year old spayed girl still humps the younger girl quite often! I know the urges don't go!

I seriously don't know whether to neuter him or not  I also need his retained baby tooth taken out! Which I was going to get done at the neuter as I don't want him under more than he has to be. 
So time is ticking really (although the tooth isn't bothering him) I would rather it came out, just in case.

In all fairness Goldie is passing the teenage stage anyway isn't he?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Spencer was at his absolute worst from 15-18 months old. After that things started to get better. I think Goldie is a smaller dog though isn't he?

I'm not convinced neutering will stop a dog from wanting to intimidate others, the worst dogs I know for that sort of behaviour are neutered so it definitely doesn't work all the time. 

If you definitely want him neutered then that's your choice to make, same as whether you do it now or leave it longer  I don't think it's wrong to neuter or to leave intact, just personal preference really. I just wouldn't go into it with the belief it will definitely help at all with any of the problems you have. The only problem I've known neutering to really make a difference with personally is interest in bitches in season. And even then it doesn't take away all the urge a lot of the time, plenty of neutered males will do the deed given half a chance. It did stop mine pacing and whining whenever there was one in the area though.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Yeah Goldie is much much smaller than Spencer. 23cms tall at his withers  So could be passing the teenage couldn't he?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Muttly said:


> Yeah Goldie is much much smaller than Spencer. 23cms tall at his withers  So could be passing the teenage couldn't he?


Would have thought you'd be coming to the end of it soon. By 2 mine have been pretty much over the Kevins although still with some maturing to do, particularly in Spendogs case. They've all been much bigger than Goldie though and people say small dogs mature faster.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Maybe ill sort this trainer out and see how he is at around 18 months.

I have a question, do you think when they wake up after their neuter they think WTF? Who stole my balls??? 
I seriously do wonder what they think


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm being made to sound as if i think all male dogs who are kept intact for breeding should live in zoos,
& their semen should be used via artificial insemination, to keep these dangerous animals away from
the general public. :blink: That's nowhere near the message i tried to communicate.

i did not say, _*Every* intact-M dog is going to be an oversexed a$$hat, who humps 
hassocks, stuffed toys, human arms or legs, & every dog he meets!_

i DID say, Every M-puppy goes thru puberty, which can begin as early as 12-WO, with mild
changes in behavior - Ex., mounting & humping that UNlike previous short-lived dominance 
or interruption mounting, which is generally brief & not sexual in nature, becomes more in-
tense & more persistent - but 3-MO is very early, & such changes are usually a passing phase in response 
to testosterone rise in pre-puberty, similar to that in a 10-YO boy.

When a M-pup reaches 6-MO, he's right in the middle of puberty: he's distractible, fascinated by Fs,
he starts flirting or fooling-around habitually; his puppy-license expired around 4-MO, & adult dogs or older pups
are also behaving TOWARD him in new & different ways. They become intolerant of social gaffes, demand more
polite social etiquette, are inclined to interrupt him or quash him, & so on.
The pup himself is usually leg-lifting by now - he will see other Ms do this, & mimic the behavior. Service dogs
AKA assistance dogs for disabled persons in the USA are often desexed pediatrically - between 8 & 12-WO -
& the Ms are kept away from adult intact-Ms during puberty so that they continue to squat into adulthood;
this saves, say, a blind owner having to apologize when their SD leg-lifts on something in a shop, unseen,
when their SD found another M-dog had marked, it wasn't adequately cleaned, & he followed suit -- or needing
to look for a vertical surface in an airport while traveling with an SD. If Ur service-dog squats, s/he can pee on
any horizontal surface, even on a puppy pee-pad on an bathroom floor, which makes life *much* easier
for those partnered with an assistance-dog.

A 6-MO intact-M pup will typically flirt with Fs, attempt to mount if they let him, may pester F-pups, & might
begin mounting inanimate objects - some do, some don't. It's exceedingly rare for a 6-MO male to *continue*
humping an inanimate object so that his penile bulb swells, & his penis cannot be withdrawn or covered by
his prepuce - that's a later stage of arousal, & would be during the 'tie' with an estrous bitch; the hazard is that
IF this occurs [not just in a pup, but in an adult dog], the exposed penis, unprotected by the sheathe & outside
the vagina of a bitch, can literally dry out, & "get stuck" so that even when the swelling is gone, the penis can't
withdraw into the prepuce & becomes very painful - this requires veterinary attention AT * ANY * AGE.

Between 6 & 8-MO, his testosterone-output & circulating levels *continue to rise*; thus, androgen-fuled behaviors 
*continue to rise*.
That means mounting, humping, distractability around other dogs [flirting or pestering or inquisitive with Fs,
posturing or intense sniffing or reactivity toward M-dogs especially intact-Ms & other teen-males]; occasional
snarks may become more frequent - around 7 to 8-MO, casual exploratory humping can become persistent: 
I-E, before this, U could call him & he might actually dismount & recall - now, he won't even quit humping,
& bulbous swelling occurs more often, leaving his penis exposed until the swelling fades].

By 8-MO, he reeks of androgens; now, he's starting up the last rise to the final spike in testosterone - he already
surpasses the circulating testosterone in an adult intact-M over 12 to 15-MO by 2 or 3-fold; by 9-MO, this will
become *5 to 7 times* the circulating testosterone in an intact-M dog over a year of age.

And now - between 8 & 10-MO - is the stage when intact-M teens become really obnoxious.

THIS is when the over-60% of shelter-surrenders arrived in Virginia: teenaged males; intact, full of swagger
& bravado, pushy with other Ms, pestering Fs, half of them willing to play far-too roughly with pups - particularly 
*male* pups - a bit of a bully, untrained, humpy when excited, often clasping human legs when volunteers arrived to
walk them, or take them out to play; stopping on the way down the alley to bark with lots of face-to-face posturing
at other dogs in their runs, provoking insane levels of barking by their 'audience', impulsive, constantly distracted, 
leg-lifting everywhere...
Taking a 9-MO intact-M pup to one's local pet-supply store means spending most of one's time looking
not at the sales items, but minding the teen-dog - monitoring his body-language as other dogs pass
or approach, watching he doesn't hike a leg & squirt the cat-trees or a shelf support, etc.

THE *SUPER-MALE* PERIOD when young males are truly obnoxious is brief - a month or 2.
With good Mgmt & good basic training, the young dog can get thru it & come out the other side
with his testosterone levels falling, his brain less awash in androgens, & by 12-MO, be a reasoning
& reasonable young adult.

*Without good Mgmt & good basic training, he learns bad habits that do not disappear as he ages into
young adulthood, but only become more habitual -
they're no longer instinctive & tentative, they're practiced, fluent, & habitual.*
They are now "learned" & simply neutering him won't get rid of them.

these can include:
- M:M reactivity or aggro
- habitual posturing at other Ms
- bullying & dominance displays [T-position, looming over, pinning, paw-over shoulder, mounting WITHOUT
sexual excitement but WITH clasping, 'pushing' other dogs out of resting spaces, etc], mostly directed
at other Ms, intact or not.

THESE 4 are mostly reduced, if not eliminated, by desex - even after 9-MO or as adults:
- fighting & biting.
- persistent mounting of Fs, even out of estrus.
- escaping to roam [bolt out doors, dig out, etc].
- leg-lifting indoors.

So - one more time! - I didn't say *Every adult intact-male dog* becomes an oversexed PITA
who humps all Fs, humps hassocks, humps humans, marks everywhere, & fights other Ms. 

I said *Adolescent* intact-Ms are prone to these behaviors *from 7 thru 10-MO*, 
& with good oversight - Mgmt, training, supervision - they get thru it. *Without* that
oversight, some problematic behaviors can become persistent as they are practiced, 
& won't be eliminated by later desex. 

I also said that *novice owners* are more-likely to have intact-Ms who develop these bad habits,
since they don't understand how fast puberty, adolescence, & Super-Male teenhood come on, & aren't
prepared - unlike experienced owners - with Mgmt skills, training tips, & consistent supervision.

Thus, a novice owner with an intact-M pup who doesn't get neutered during puberty is more-likely
to have an intact-M dog who carries his obnoxious teen-behavior into adulthood.

I hope that's now clear? :huh:
I know plenty of ppl, myself included, who can handle an intact-M dog in the presence of estrous bitches
& while he's intrigued, he won't be humping anybody - including me [no redirection]. Hand the leash
to his owner, & it can be an utterly different scenario. That's *handling* skills, & *habituation:*
the dog's patterned response to his owner is based on shared history.

I also know plenty of intact-M adult dogs who have excellent manners, can be handled around estrous Fs
by almost-anyone, don't snark at other intact-Ms, rarely fight with anyone, & have good impulse control.
*They didn't come that way - they were taught.*

Raising a sociable, playful, confident, outgoing dog of either gender from pup to adult isn't "simple".
Raising an intact-male dog from pup to adult is just one more added complication, & for novice owners,
i don't suggest it. *Most owners who don't intend to breed their dog, spay their bitch.* I don't understand
why it's somehow 'bad' or 'cheating' or 'cruel' to neuter a male dog who will never be a wanted stud,
especially when that dog belongs to a novice owner. If desex makes life simpler, why not?
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Muttly said:


> ... do you think when they wake up after their neuter they think, 'WTF? Who stole my balls???'
> 
> I seriously do wonder what they think.


I don't think dogs who wake from a neuter surgery comprehend that their testes are gone at all -
they have a minor ouch in their groins, they're being nagged not to touch it, but nothing for them changes,
in an essential sense.

It's no different than a dog who wakes from a tooth extraction, or a leg amputation, or any surgery.
They don't understand what happened - they have a short period of pain, it stops, the injury heals, & they
just go on with their lives.

Dogs who are neutered don't worry about it, any more than a dog with 1 leg removed after bone-cancer thinks,
_'I'll never dance again...'_ :crying:
Humans pull that cra*ola  dogs don't. Ppl who never danced a step in their lives will agonize over that
"loss", when what they've gained is their life - after an auto-accident, cancer surgery, whatever.
.
.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I just wanted to clarify Goldie's situation really, that he is only humpy when with the girl dogs. (It is so infrequent with my step daughter, that it's not an issue) I know some males can be very testosterone driven and I know you were just pointing this out L4L.

I wondered about the waking up after surgery because I thought surely they notice they are gone? I don't want Goldie to look at me and think "You cow, you took me to this place and they stole my balls" lol
Perhaps I give Dogs too much credit in their lines of thinking? They are clever animals.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> I also know plenty of intact-M adult dogs who have excellent manners, can be handled around estrous Fs
> by almost-anyone, don't snark at other intact-Ms, rarely fight with anyone, & have good impulse control.
> *They didn't come that way - they were taught.*
> 
> ...


Why not? Short version - because you are perfroming surgery for something that boils down to training and management.

Obviously, the long version is that it's more complicated than that. Many owners are irresponsible with their dogs and it's just easier to scare them in to neutering rather than trying to convince them to be responsible for the lifetime of the dog. I get that. But on a forum of mostly responsible, dilligent pet owners, I think we can be real and admit that those behavior issues are fixable with training, that the teenage stage does pass, and that neutering is not the panacea it is purported to be.

Really, like you yourself have just said, it all boils down to training and management. I've lived in places where neutering was just not done, and the homeless dog population was awful, but I didn't see more behavior problems there than here where most dogs I encounter are neutered.

Add in that there is no clear-cut evidence either way that neutering is a health benefit, and in some breeds, it may even be a detriment to proper growth and bone development. There is a lot of research still to be done but again, it's not a clear cut answer.

I think a novice owner who is responsible and dedicated enough to be a regular poster on this forum deserves to be given accurate information, and armed with that information make the choice for themselves and their dog.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Why not [S / N]?
> Short version - because you're perfroming surgery for something that boils down to training and management.
> 
> Obviously, the long version is that it's more complicated than that. ...


I disagree that S / N is just avoidance of training & Mgmt.
yes, it *is* "more complicated than that" - & not *only* for bitches.

What seems obvious to me is that pet-owners are willing to spay Fs because it saves a lot of mess & hassle.
Speaking very frankly, they want to avoid bloodstains on the carpet or sofa, & male-dogs p*ssing on the doorpost
while waiting to ambush their estrous pup; it's convenient, & so it's defensible.

The bigger truth is that it also prevents mammary cancers, OHE eliminates the risk of Pyo, reduces F:F aggro,
& has both behavioral & health benefits - for the dog, as well as the dog's human family & larger community.
Fewer oops-litters, less ppn-pressure on local shelters & rescues, lower municipal costs, fewer strays & fewer
feral pups who grow-up to be problematic, yadda-yadda.

The benefits to the owner AND the dog are not as obvious, when we talk about male dogs. Nonetheless,
i am firmly in the camp that says, _"If U don't intend to breed that dog, whichever gender, desex the dog -
if female, before her 1st estrus, & if male, before his Super-Male period of 9-MO."_

I categorically deny the fluff that claims, _'Fearful male dogs are doomed to become more fearful if they're neutered.'_
It's outrageous invention, & has no basis in research - there's no data to support that statement.

There are several nasty male-specific medical problems that are associated with age, AND intact -
prostatic hypertrophy is the mildest, but that doesn't mean it's entirely "benign". BHP isn't fun for dog
or owner, & desex is often curative. Ditto anal fistulas - they might not be fatal, but more than one owner
has wished they were, & again, desex is often curative - & is, in fact, mandated.

I see absolutely no redeeming features in the advice to keep any male dog intact, when he's not sire material,
or isn't COMPETING - actively! - in a dog-sport that *requires* he have 2 descended testes. Period.
When the competing dog retires, get him neutered - ASAP, as age only makes complications of androgen-
fueled medical fallout, more-likely. There's no better time than now.

I don't see neutering as a 'panacea' - not in the least. I see it as responsible ownership.
.
.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I've come late to this discussion, and have to admit I have not read every single post, but, as the owner of a reactive dog, I wanted to add my tuppence worth.

Every dog I have ever had has been neutered at around 6 months. Every single one.

When I got Duke, I was swayed- mostly by posts here- to leave him entire. 
When he became lead reactive ( and I a, ABSOLUTLY not saying it was as a result of not being neutered) I was advised that having him neutered could make him worse of his issues were fear based. However, no one was able to show me any real evidence of this being the case. He was also an expert humper- the kids, my leg, the cushions....
So I gave him a Tardek injection and The humping disappeared.

I then checked out as much research-via Pubmed and Medline- as I could to see if there was anything in this "neutering can make them worse" hypothesis. I found nothing convincing. 
But I did find lots of good evidence that neutering male dogs reduces humping and roaming (Duke was also developing into an escapee)

I had him neutered and the humping and roaming ceased. There was no difference in his reactivity.

My next male dog will be neutered at 6 months, as I have always done before.

I


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Well Goldie is definatly 'going through a stage' in several ways.

On Saturday he was sitting on my lap and started preening my hands, then he tried to hump my arm!
He has never done this before, I told him no and he hasn't tried again.
But during play he does try to start the preening again on my hands.

We also had an issue with him deciding that (after 4 months), he doesn't want to sleep in the kitchen, he wanted to come upstairs with us.
We have stuck to keeping him in the kitchen, he doesn't scratch or whine, just looks sad (it's heartbreaking).
Last night around 10pm he got off the sofa and went into the kitchen and put himself to bed! (we were still in the lounge 45 mins later, and showed no signs of going to bed that he would use as a trigger). When he did go out for his last wee, he came into the lounge for a sec, tail up, ears up, had a stroke, then back in the kitchen and went to bed.

His reactivity is no worse through this stage, *in normal circumstances*. (i.e not as described in OP)
e.g Yesterday I took him over for a walk where we usually go (but went further to an area we have only been once), there were a few dogs, loads of people, thousands of seagulls and he didn't bark at all or get worked up, I was able to keep him in check by a simple "This way,boy"

This morning we entered a field and were faced with 2 little terriers off lead, they did suprise us as we never see anyone at 7am!
Goldie had a pull on his lead, but no barking. One terrier started coming over to us and I said the man "I wouldn't" (as he could see I was restraining Goldie) then to Goldie "come on boy, this way" and turned him around to walk off. He walked off with me and the man called his dog and said "sorry" (nice people round here  ). I said "no worries, it's ok".
Then he sat and waited for a treat.

So basically after my drama at the start of the thread, he is no worse at all in everyday circumstances. It was just a bad situation in Bristol that he was unable to cope with.

But, I am noticing a few changes in behaviour in him. The going in the kitchen, I think is showing maturity?
His eating is also much better, he never refuses a meal now.
The humping my arm, yes he is obviously in a horny stage.

So all in all, I am still unsure!  Because the only reason it seems to neuter at the mo, is so he is not so crazy when with my parents dogs who we see about 6 times a year!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I've been working more with Muttly on his reactivity and he has been good. So I thought I would take him to a busier area, but still where I can mostly give people/dogs a wide birth.

So I walked him round the sports centre, lots of people.
Quite a few dog encounters and he was great!

Last Saturday I went over again (after walking all week not really seeing anyone).
But, once we got over there, we were on the path bit and its a bit thin, I clocked some people with 2 Jack Russells, both on leads.
They were both pulling on their leads, so I took Muttly down the hill and off the path to give us all so room. (this was the furthest away I could go there).
Muttly was fine and he was looking at them and started to pull a bit, but I was able to keep him trotting with me by "This way boy". Then both the other Jack's starting barking like mad at him, so of course he answered. As we walked past the 2nd Jack, his bark got a bit of an agressive tone to it. So that wound Muttly up more.

Anyways, they passed and I called him him to come this way and he switched back to 'lovely dog mode'
(a few mins later I heard the Jack's going mental at someone/dog else). Muttly looked, but ignored.

Saw a few more dogs, and he did react unfortunatly. I guess the jack encounter had started him off.

One collie owner was lovely, she saw me coming with Muttly and she got her dog to sit and wait, while we passed 

As we got further round about 10 mins later, there was a mastiff type dog walking along the path, I veered Muttly over on the grass to give some distance and he had a look but didn't bark or really react at all.
Then as the mastiff got close, he stared right at Muttly and did a deep growl. So of course the barking starts.

Thing is some dogs, like the Mastiff, he wasn't going to react, but only did because he was growled at, same with the terriers, he only barked because they did.
It was a small victory because at the start of the walk he had the Jack episode, then by the time we got to the mastiff, he was calm. But that was ruined too.

It's a very up and down journey this is.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Muttly said:


> I've been working more with Muttly on his reactivity and he has been good. So I thought I would take him to a busier area, but still where I can mostly give people/dogs a wide birth.
> 
> So I walked him round the sports centre, lots of people.
> Quite a few dog encounters and he was great!
> ...


It is indeed a very up and down journey - 3 steps forward, 2 steps back in my (limited) experience.

It's great you've made some progress, but it does sound like the environment for your latest outing was perhaps a bit much. It's really tempting to push things a bit too far too fast when you're on a high from recent successes, perhaps just make the set up a bit easier for a while (more space, less dogs) then you're setting him up to succeed.

But well done on the work you're putting in and the progress you've made


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sarahliz100 said:


> It is indeed a very up and down journey - 3 steps forward, 2 steps back in my (limited) experience.
> 
> It's great you've made some progress, but it does sound like the environment for your latest outing was perhaps a bit much. It's really tempting to push things a bit too far too fast when you're on a high from recent successes, perhaps just make the set up a bit easier for a while (more space, less dogs) then you're setting him up to succeed.
> 
> But well done on the work you're putting in and the progress you've made


Thank you Sarah, that's good advice. I think I did get a bit ahead of myself then. 
I am trying to keep in my mind the '3 D's' that another member advised me on. Distance, Distraction and Duration. (don't think I got it quite right).

So after the Jack Russells, do you think I should have kept him far away from everyone for the rest of the walk?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Muttly said:


> Thank you Sarah, that's good advice. I think I did get a bit ahead of myself then.
> I am trying to keep in my mind the '3 D's' that another member advised me on. Distance, Distraction and Duration. (don't think I got it quite right).
> 
> So after the Jack Russells, do you think I should have kept him far away from everyone for the rest of the walk?


I would have. I'd have expected him to be more reactive after having already reacted once. But even the most placid of dogs will react badly at times and if he's only reacting to dogs who bark or growl at him that's a start 

I went through a phase of jackpotting Spen when we encountered a dog that kicked off, dog barks or growls or lunges, lots of treats forthcoming. Not sure that that alone is why Spen blanks reactive dogs or whether it's because he genuinely wants to avoid trouble but it didn't hurt lol. The idea was that a dog kicking off would be a cue for him to look to me and get a reward rather than for him to react back.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Well, lately he has been running back over to me when he sees a person/dog/bird in the distance. He did it this morning when he spotted a distant person on a bike 
I will be more on the ball with the dog kicking off = treats. Thank you!


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I would have. I'd have expected him to be more reactive after having already reacted once. But even the most placid of dogs will react badly at times and if he's only reacting to dogs who bark or growl at him that's a start
> 
> I went through a phase of jackpotting Spen when we encountered a dog that kicked off, dog barks or growls or lunges, lots of treats forthcoming. Not sure that that alone is why Spen blanks reactive dogs or whether it's because he genuinely wants to avoid trouble but it didn't hurt lol. The idea was that a dog kicking off would be a cue for him to look to me and get a reward rather than for him to react back.


This is what I do - the bigger deal the other dog is (aggressive, rude, in your face, breed that he's had issues with previously) the bigger reward he gets. So if we spot a dog kicking off I praise him (or click and treat) the second we see it then he gets loads of praise and treats for skirting past it with me.

I think the key is working out your dogs threshold and staying below it so that you have lots of opportunities to reward nice calm behaviour. As I said before it's really tempting to push ahead and end up getting your dog over threshold and into reacting zone. You mentioned the 3 D's before - remember that if one of them increases (eg more distractions in the form of lots of dogs or one dog that's more stressful because it's reacting) then you need to decrease the other criteria so reduce distance (move further away) and decrease duration (don't hang around to chat whilst dog is barely holding it together). Also remember that after one stressful episode your dogs stress levels will be higher and he'll be more likely to react.

I think sometimes it's important to recognise that for whatever reason things aren't going so well that day and cut things short - just go home and play some scent games or something and start again another day. Don't push on when your dog is repeatedly reacting - you get frustrated and demoralised and your dog practises the behaviour you're trying to eliminate (this is not a criticism by the way, I'm TERRIBLE for doing this and have to try really hard not to)


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Thank you Sarahliz100. I wasn't taking it as critism, don't worry  It's really helpful info!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Muttly said:


> ... humping my arm, yes - he's obviously in a horny stage.
> 
> So all in all, I am still unsure!  ...*the only reason to neuter [him now]*, it seems, *is so he's not as crazy
> when with my parents' dogs, whom we see about [every other month]!*


 - it's not "the only reason", but it can be phrased in another way, too:
every other month, he has the chance to rehearse the behaviors U *don't* want. Oops. 

- another consideration:
desex reduces reactivity & aggression. Nobody claims neutered dogs CAN'T get into fights - but fights sure are
less likely, as are reactive behaviors across the spectrum.

- Again:
if U're afraid it will somehow mess him up, get a temporary injection to lower testosterone.
U'll see the result in his behavior - & then can make a more-informed decision.

- When he hits 5-YO, U will need to think about desex seriously all over again, as aging intact-Ms are
subject to very-specific physical problems: swelling prostates, just like human males, & anal fistulae -
luckily not a common human issue - among others.


Muttly said:


> I've been working more... on his reactivity, & he's been good. So *I thought I'd go to a busier area,
> but still where I can mostly give people/ dogs a wide birth.*
> 
> So *I walked him round the sports centre - lots of people. Quite a few dog encounters, & he was great! *


what day did U do this?!
There's only a *6-day window* between the prior post, & this one! :blink:
And this was 'before Saturday' - so *just how many DAYS* did U "work on his reactivity"?

IMO & IME? U're pushing progress way, way too fast. He's being flooded; not taught new emotional responses,
but immersed in circs he's not ready to cope with in any way but via already-established habits.

I'm sure that's not welcome, & i wish it weren't so - but were U my client, i'd tell U exactly that. 


Muttly said:


> Last Saturday I went [to the sports-centre] again, *after walking all week not really seeing anyone.*


U can't do that - he needs little & often, just like a starved person being re-fed: small, easy to handle, frequent
encounters at controlled distances - so that if the OTHER dog reacts, U can get the helloutta Dodge immediately,
before Muttly reacts to THAT dog's reaction. Kapisch?

Having him 'away' from encounters all week, then plunging him into a multidog, multihuman setting as if
he was a teabag dunked in boiling water, is going to make him *worse - * not 'better'.
It's too much change, & he's now LEARNED that the sports-centre is a crowded area with strangers, dogs
& humans, *everywhere* - & as soon as U approach it, he's primed to go off like a bomb.

Q - 
are U using any OTC calmatives? See a list with How, When, etc, here:

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...
.
A calming-cap to reduce visual stim, DAP pump-spray, an Anxiety-Wrap, can all help.



Muttly said:


> ...once we got... there... the path is a bit [narrow?], I clocked some people with 2 Jack Russells, both on leads.
> Both dogs pulling on their leads; I took Muttly downhill, off the path, to give us all some room. (*The furthest
> 'away' that I could go there*).
> 
> ...


 - if paths are narrow, it's NOT a good place for him.
Face-to-face is always the most tension possible; ditch any skinny path that's too long to pass thru
BEFORE another dog or team enters it, on the other end. U need long sight-lines & places to get off the path.

- starting to pull =/= "fine".


Muttly said:


> ...the JRTs passed, I called him him to come this way, & he switched back to 'lovely dog' mode.
> (A few mins later, [*we*] heard the JRTs bark insanely at someone else. Muttly looked, but [*didn't bark*].)


 - "not barking" isn't ignoring; he *looked* toward the source of the barking, which is a perfect time to offer
a continuous string of pea-sized, high-value, high-protein tidbits as long as the barks lasted - from Bark #1
to the last bark.


Muttly said:


> Saw a few more dogs - he did react, unfortunately. I guess the JRT encounter had started him off.


yes, i'd say it did. :nonod:
U have to remember that *triggers don't SUM - they are EXPONENTIAL factors.*

2 triggers isn't "_1 + 1 = 2_" - it's "_2 *x* 2 = 4_", or FOUR times as difficult to cope.
3 triggers is NINE times as difficult a challenge; trigger-stacking is disastrous for B-Mod.
That's why U've got to have controlled exposures AND a fluent, happy, Emergency-U-Turn on tap.

When things start to snowball, U've gotta *bail* immediately; give him distance, evacuate.



Muttly said:


> ...
> It's a very up & down journey, this.


Yes - but U're adding speed-bumps to the pathway, too. 


Sarahliz100 said:


> It is indeed very up & down... 3 steps forward, 2 steps back in my (limited) experience.
> 
> ...it does sound like the environs for your latest outing was perhaps a bit much. It's really tempting to push things
> a bit too far, too fast, when you're on a high from recent successes; perhaps just make the set up a bit easier for a while
> ...


Second this! :thumbup: Excellent advice.


Muttly said:


> ...I think I did get a bit ahead of myself then.
> I'm trying to keep in my mind the '3 Ds' another member advised... *Distance, Distraction, & Duration*?
> (don't think I got it quite right).


Yes, U did. :thumbsup:


Sarah1983 said:


> ...
> I'd have expected him to be more reactive after already reacting once. But even the most placid of dogs
> will react badly at times, & if he only reacts to dogs who bark or growl at him, that's a start.
> 
> ...


GREAT tip. :thumbup1:


Muttly said:


> ...lately he's run back to me when he sees a person/ dog/ bird in the distance. He did it this morning,
> when he spotted a distant person on a bike.
> 
> I'll be more on the ball with *a dog kicking off = treats.* Thank you!


Have U used a marker in past training?
If not, i'd try it - a marker such as a 'Click!' can really clarify what U are looking for, in the dog's mind.
U literally mark desired behaviors in the instant they are done; think of the marker as a camera, & the moment
U use it [click, flash, whatever] is the *shutter* opening to capture that instant of behavior.

It's accurate, it's simple, & dogs get it - the light switches on, _'Oh, that's what U want?! -- I can do that!...
Why didn't U say so?!...'_ 


Sarahliz100 said:


> This is what I do - *["Purple"]the bigger deal the other dog is*[/color] (aggro, rude, in your face, breed he's had issues with previously),
> *the bigger reward he gets. If we spot a dog kicking off, I praise him (or click & treat) the second we see [or hear?]
> that dog; then, he gets loads of praise & treats for skirting past the dog with me.*


CLICK! :thumbup: Excellent tactic.


Sarahliz100 said:


> I think the key is working out your dog's threshold & staying below it so that you have lots of opportunities
> to reward nice calm behaviour. As I said before, it's really tempting to push ahead & [send] your dog over threshold
> & into reacting... You mentioned the 3 Ds - remember that if *one* of them increases (e-g, more distractions
> in the form of lots of dogs, or one dog that's more stressful because s/he's reacting), then *you need to decrease
> ...


:yesnod: All very true, & very helpful.


Sarahliz100 said:


> I think sometimes it's important to *recognise that, for whatever reason, things aren't going so well today
> & cut things short* - just go home and play some scent games or something and start again another day.
> *Don't push on when your dog is repeatedly reacting* - you get frustrated & demoralised & your dog practises
> the behaviour you're trying to eliminate (*not a criticism BTW, I'm TERRIBLE for doing this, & have to try
> really hard not to*).


'Testing to failure' is a besetting human habit - everybody is tempted, even when they KNOW it's bad.
It's a constant struggle to keep efforts at the dog's pace. It takes years to rein in that automatic impulse,
& by 'years' i mean decades.  I still smack myself mentally, sometimes, when i find myself drifting into
a _"let's see how..."_ or even _"let's see *if...*"_. I pull up short, shake myself, & get back into alert & *under-*
threshold.

It's not entirely automatic, yet - & i've done B-mod only for over 30-years, now. So it's very easy to slip.
I taught cued behaviors for another decade, before that. It's not lack of practice - it's human wiring,
i think - the same impulse that makes us explorers, scientists, provocative.
.
.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> - it's not "the only reason", but it can be phrased in another way, too:
> every other month, he has the chance to rehearse the behaviors U *don't* want. Oops.
> 
> - another consideration:
> ...




Thanks again L4L. 
So all week in the mornings I walk him 7am, noone around apart from distant walkers or cyclists (rarely see dogs) *he goes over (always on lead) and looks to the distraction* and then comes and sits next to me for a treat (of his own accord) and I give him a treat and good boy. I'm sure this is progress?
But I guess my weekend walks which are about lunch time are just a massive leap too far?
So I will keep to the quiet areas (there will probably always be something wherever I go though, it's dog walker county!)
It's so tempting to just keep going though when he doesn't react. 
I have been thinking, if he never sees anyone, then how will he know what to do when he does?

*Bit in bold* - I just re-read that. He shouldn't be going over even should he? Hey I think I'm learning :huh:
Poor Muttly, good job I'm a good owner in other ways.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dunno about how L4L does it but initially I treated Spencer regardless of his behaviour. The idea is that the trigger predicts the food/game, not that the food/game is dependent on his behaviour. Once he was looking to me automatically when we spotted/heard the trigger was when I started asking him to do something simple. Done this with reactive dogs, the one dog he hated, non white people (he'd been encouraged to bark fearfully at them to "protect" his previous owners  ), deer, cats and a few other things. It's been really successful for me and Spen  Ideally I'd be at a distance where he didn't react but real life happens, deer tend to burst out 5 metres away not 500, reactive dogs are usually on narrow paths, that sort of thing lol.

Others will only reward if the dog is calm and behaving appropriately though.


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## karmacookie (Nov 9, 2014)

Can I ask, what should one do if the dog notices the other dog in the distance before you and starts barking before you have time to shovel treats into his mouth?

In this situation I've been throwing a treat onto the ground in front of him and telling him to walk on. Once slightly calmer and I think he can hear me I'm asking for a sit and then treating him. I'm just not sure if this is the right way of dealing with it.

It's also rather embarrassing when he kicks of at calm well behaved dogs


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## karmacookie (Nov 9, 2014)

Crossed posts with Sarah. Useful info thanks


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

I am so thankful, Muttly, U didn't get furious, frustrated, or just plain disgusted & quit. I know it's hard
to be told that what U're doing is digging the hole deeper - so i give U tremendous credit for plugging on.
Reactivity is such a frustrating issue, limiting dogs' lives AND their owners', & it can seem that no progress at all
is being made, at times - bad surprises happen, unpredictable, unpreventable, & much hard work can be
smashed. The only good thing in those moments is knowing that RE-doing it is usually easier - U & the dog
know what U're doing, the 2nd time.

Kudos & rep for persistence! - U'll need it. :laugh: Being pigheaded is a very good trait, as this is a project.


Muttly said:


> *Terry:
> Have U used a marker in past training?*
> 
> - No, I don't think so.


See the book, _'Click to Calm'_ - it's available as an e-book, & also in many libraries.
it's recipe style protocols - find the symptom, start right in.
Or read the whole book, then use specifics. Just substiture 'reactive' wherever U see 'aggro' -
exactly the same process, different issue.
Also, see videos on UTube - 'Click to Calm', 'Control Unleashed', 'Look At That', are all good search terms.

YOSHI is a highly-reactive, very barky Corgi who improves mightily with Control Unleashed / Look at That.

2nd sugg: Sign up for a week of free clicker lessons.
All U need is a 1st name [needn't be 'real'] & an actual e-address. That needs to be real!

Sign up here:
Canis Clickertraining Academy

Every day for a week, U get a link to today's lesson. Personally, i copied the text to an e-mail draft,
sent it to myself, & could print selected parts to take along [via copy / paste / print].
DON'T SKIP the manual dexterity parts, which must be done away from the dog - a clicker is only as good
as Ur timing, but it's a very forgiving method: if U click the wrong instant, no worries. Reward anyway, move on,
& don't click that behavior again; it will die a natural death, just fade away without feeding.

Tip:
if U have kids, DON'T let them have the clicker! - hide it if U must, or keep it with U. [One client hid it
in her bra & wore it everywhere - she had 3 preschool kids, 2 of them boys, who would climb onto or into
any closet to rifle it.]


Muttly said:


> ...I get a bit confused on when to treat in these situations; *I think I'm waiting for him to be calm,
> trotting along, not reacting - before I treat.*
> 
> I did treat him when the 2 JRT's were starting up again in the distance at someone else. Because he only
> ...


this is COUNTER-conditioning - not 'operant'; he's not earning it, we are *pairing* it.
He's not working U as a food or toy dispenser; the TRIGGER is the dispenser.

We want to erase his long habit of _'see another dog / a human, bark like a fool'_, & install a new one:
_'see another human or dog?... Cool! Good things are coming.'_ His old emotion may have been intense
arousal, or anxiety, or COME PLAY! excitement, or GO AWAY! - who cares? - the new one is happy, secure,
pleasant *anticipation*.


Sarah1983 said:


> Dunno about how L4L does it but *initially I treated Spencer regardless of his behaviour.
> The idea is that the trigger predicts the food / game, not that the food / game is dependent on his behaviour.
> ...
> *


*
:thumbup: Exactly - U want him under threshold, preferably, but NO MATTER WHAT Muttly does, if his trigger
are present & he's capable of eating or playing, by all means, offer!  - if he can't eat / play,
back off as quickly as possible, preferably with that happy Emergency-U-Turn U've practiced - don't drag him, cue,
& if he hesitates or pulls back, YOU run - away! - calling him, giving leash if possible. One of the times a 12
or 15-ft long-line as a leash can help - U pay out YOUR end, he is still under some tension, not slack - U don't
want to let him lunge or run off, But U want Ur own movement away to suck him in Ur wake - if that's possible.

If not - yes, haul him along; bodily carry him, :lol: if U must. Just get him away, briskly.


Muttly said:



... 
All week in the mornings I walk him 7-am, no-one around apart from distant walkers or cyclists (rarely see dogs) 
he goes over (always on lead) and looks to the distraction and then comes and sits next to me for a treat 
(of his own accord) & I give a treat and 'good boy'. 
I'm sure this is progress?

[Bit in bold - I just re-read that. He shouldn't be going over... should he? Hey, I think I'm learning. :huh:
Poor Muttly  - good job I'm a good owner, in other ways.]

But I guess my weekend walks, which are about lunch time, are just a massive leap too far?
So I'll keep to quiet areas (there will probly always be something, wherever I go, though; it's dog walker county!)

Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately - he can't handle 'target-rich' locations, yet. :lol:
U -Do- want to expose him - U just need to make it Distant [his threshold plus a cushion], FEW dogs,
FEW ppl [# of Distractions at any moment], for a short time [Duration], & give him a break before any more.
"little & often" - snacks, not 12-course meals over an hour or more.

If U can give him real, aerobic exercise AWAY from other dogs, & use 'walks' as only B-Mod time, that helps -
a lot. Is there any place or time that would regularly allow him to run, or will he chase & kill or fetch a ball,
at home in the garden?... or up & down a flight of steps?
So long as the traction is good & he's not an insane leaper, liable to hurtle the final 8 stairs in a lunge,
steps are terrific for aerobics.
WADING is wonderful - 10-minutes walking in water to his hocks = 30-mins of running on dry land, but with
low joint-impact & no risk of overheating.


Muttly said:



It's so tempting to just keep going, though, when he doesn't react. 
I've been thinking, if he never sees anyone, then how will he know what to do when he does?...

Click to expand...

I know! - he's doing well, it's SUCH a nice day, U feel chuffed... Why stop!?...
But U gotta. :001_wub: Console Urself with the tought that stopping WHILE he's doing well means a good start
for the next session.

It's not that he 'never sees anyone' - he sees EVERYone, but only 1 or 2 at a time, & at a distance.
if U could go out 20 times a day, U could see every local resident - depending upon how big that popn is -
in a week, a month, a season, or a year. It's just in small doses & controlled circs.
.


Sarah1983 said:



...
Once Spen looked to me automatically when we spotted/ heard a trigger, was when I started asking him to do
something simple. Done this with [other] reactive dogs, the one dog he hated, non white people 
(he was encouraged to bark fearfully at them to "protect" his previous owners  ), deer, cats,
& a few other things. It's been really successful for me and Spen 

Ideally I'd be at a distance where he didn't react but real life happens; deer tend to burst out 5 metres away, 
not 500; reactive dogs are usually on narrow paths - that sort of thing. :lol:

...

Click to expand...

Yup! :thumbup1: Ask for something he can do in his sleep - :laugh: Like "look at me" for 2-seconds, or even 1! -
don't ask for stationary behaviors unless he's capable of turning his BACK to the trigger - that's a good test.
If he can't, treat anyway, BACK AWAY - U facing him & trigger, he facing YOU - Cue him or lure him, doesn't matter
a whit; we're just adding distance. Then, with added distance behind him, ask for 'sit' - & jackpot a string of 12 or so
treats [pea-sized or even half-pea], or proffer a chew-toy [bone, antler] that U hold for him, while praising WARMLY
& calmly; while he sits, scrub his chest soothingly - slow, firm, supportive contact.

Dropping the pitch of Ur own voice - consciously - can really help reactive dogs.
Think before U speak, & drop it an octave if U can. Warm tones are also good - shrill, rapid, 'perky' is bad,
all those agitate & excite. Think 'cozy' & 'fruity' - a hypnotist's stage voice, an actor reading a bedtime story -
something like that.


karmacookie said:



...what should one do if the dog [i'm handling] notices the other dog in the distance before [i do],
& starts barking before there's time to shovel treats into her / his mouth?

In this situation, I've thrown a treat on the ground in front of him, then tell him to walk on. Once slightly calmer,
when I think he can hear me, I ask for a sit, then treat [again, delivering it to the dog's mouth].

I'm just not sure if this is the right way of dealing with it.

It's also rather embarrassing - when he kicks off, at calm, well-behaved dogs 

Click to expand...

That's fine - U can also opt to get outta Dodge, cue that emergency-U-turn, & literally run off. :laugh:

Or scatter a handful of treats over a few square-feet of ground, & let Ur dog find / eat them - sniffing is a great
self-soothing, focusing activity.

Or as above, U back away & lure him along - verbally [Come on!  ], gesture [closed hand outstretched -
great cue for TARGET = goody inside], posture [bend at the hip, leaning fwd, & bend knees - looks inviting to
any dog], etc - once U get past his threshold, JACKPOT: as fast as s/he can swallow, a string of pea-sized
goodies, accompanied by a running stream of warm, quiet, low-pitched praise as the dog swallows.
In this scenario, the dog's back is to the trigger, which helps, as does the added distance.

I know it's really awkward to have a dog in public who's being insane - if it helps, disown them. :laugh:
'S/he's not mine - we're working on the reactivity.' or just a simple, 'Sorry - but s/he is getting better!'
Just acknowledging that THEIR dog isn't "to blame", & that THIS dog has issues, will help.

There will always be some twit who gives U grief for even bringing that mouthy monster out in public -
blessedly, they're not common; don't engage, keep moving, make a simple statement - 'We're working on it',
& get out of the area. Some folks have zero empathy, or maybe they're just cranky today - U can always hope so.

.
.
.*


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> I am so thankful, Muttly, U didn't get furious, frustrated, or just plain disgusted & quit. I know it's hard
> to be told that what U're doing is digging the hole deeper - so i give U tremendous credit for plugging on.
> 
> *Of course not! I would never quit my lil boy  I know it's my inexperience that is making his progress slow, plus his crap start in life.
> ...




Another very helpful post, thank you L4L!


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## karmacookie (Nov 9, 2014)

Here's an idea for a garden game I came across the other day, perfect for tiring their wee minds when you just need to chill for a bit. We both seem to be going through similar with adolesent male dogs who haven't had the best start. It can be pretty tiring and frustrating

SPRINKLES (TM) Â© 2014 Copyright of Sally Hopkins - All Rights Reserved


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

karmacookie said:


> Here's an idea for a garden game I came across the other day, perfect for tiring their wee minds when you just need to chill for a bit. We both seem to be going through similar with adolesent male dogs who haven't had the best start. It can be pretty tiring and frustrating
> 
> SPRINKLES (TM) Â© 2014 Copyright of Sally Hopkins - All Rights Reserved


Thank you, that's a good site, that is 
I will definately be doing Sprinkles. He is such a scavenger, he will love this! 
My OH says that when I go back to work after lunch he can be restless and in and out the garden all the time.
So I could use it then maybe depending how late he finished his Kong.:thumbsup:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't like Click To Calm personally. Way too reliant on "watch me" which I've found can actually make a dog more stressed and anxious. Control Unleashed is the better book imo, has more options in there. Click to Calm has the better layout though and is a far easier read, just absolutely useless if you have a dog that watch me doesn't work for. 

I think the one thing I did take away from that book was desensitizing and counter conditioning my dog to my stress signals. No matter how hard I try I still tense up when I see another dog we're going to have to pass.


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## karmacookie (Nov 9, 2014)

It is a good site. I keep finding myself back on it looking at training tips. Absolutely not looking at the perfect fit harness as no dog can possibly need more than 5 harnesess..... yet none of them are 'perfect'


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

karmacookie said:


> It is a good site. I keep finding myself back on it looking at training tips. Absolutely not looking at the perfect fit harness as no dog can possibly need more than 5 harnesess..... yet none of them are 'perfect'


lol I've been looking at them! Muttly hates harnesses, but I really want him to have one though. I like the front and back ring on them too.

I've been reading that site for abut an hour!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I bought a perfect fit harness a couple of weeks ago. Pricey but worth it imo. Very well made and you can chop and change the pieces to get the best fit. I got the one for strong pullers as Spen can certainly be that which I think bumped the price up a bit.

Putting it on the first time was fun, it was like something off Krypton Factor. Not helped by Spen trying to throw himself into it any chance he got because it's a harness and that's what you do with harnesses


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I bought a perfect fit harness a couple of weeks ago. Pricey but worth it imo. Very well made and you can chop and change the pieces to get the best fit. I got the one for strong pullers as Spen can certainly be that which I think bumped the price up a bit.
> 
> Putting it on the first time was fun, it was like something off Krypton Factor. Not helped by Spen trying to throw himself into it any chance he got because it's a harness and that's what you do with harnesses


lol, wish I had that problem though. Muttly is just worried about harnesses. If you get the harness out he will back away and put his ears back.
But I thought I could get a new one with a new smell and he might be ok, being that it won't be squeezing him 

They are hard to get on at first arn't they, It took me a while and reading the box to figure it out


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## karmacookie (Nov 9, 2014)

Sandy has started backing away when he sees his harness come out, that's why I'm thinking that something isn't quite right with the ones he has. Either that or he's just playing me cause I'll then get a treat and put my hand through the neck bit of the harness and pop the treat in his mouth while popping harness over his head.

He probably is playing me


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Ah that's a good tactic with the treat through the head hole. I think ill try this when I get the new one.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

If it going over the head is a problem then the perfect fit doesn't have to, you can unclip it so no need for anything to go over the dogs head. I leave those bits done up coz that way Spen can hurl himself into it at the speed of light as he likes to do lol.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> I don't like Click To Calm, personally.
> It's way-too reliant on "watch me", which I've found can actually make a dog more stressed & anxious.
> 
> Control Unleashed is the better book, IMO - more options in there.
> ...


U needn't use *"Watch me"* to succeed with Click to Calm; part of the reason i suggest it is that,
IME, multiple APOs i've had as clients couldn't afford a series of consultations, but their dogs had very 
serious issues - mostly major aggro, not mere 'reaction', often with bite-histories included stitches -
& these owners used Click to Calm, plus ONE initial one-to-one, 2-hour consult in person, & some e-mail
or 'phone support, over a few weeks' time. Then, over a period of 6 to 8-weeks, largely ON THEIR
OWN, those owners massively improved their dog's aggro behavior.

A glance at the handler when s/he sees the trigger is plenty - there's no need for extended eye-to-eye
gaze, or stationary poses [e-g, 'Sit' for seconds or a minute, in the trigger's presence].

_Movement..._ is helpful when a dog is stressed - whether that's arousal,
aggro, frustration, anxiety, whatever, who cares --- Keep 'em *moving*.
Ex:
Don't ask a reactive dog to SIT & STAY 8-ft off a footpath as another dog [or bicyclist or _____ ] goes by;
instead, U-turn, JOG the other way, let THEM pass U by, in the same direction on the OFF side from
Ur reactive / aggro dog, U-turn crisply a 2nd time, go in the original direction... away from the rapidly-
receding trigger. No face-to-face ever occurred; the dog never stood or sat or lay still.


Sarah1983 said:


> ...the one thing I took from Click to Calm was to be sure to desensitize & counter-condition my dog
> to *my* stress signals. No matter how hard I try, *I still tense* when I see another dog
> we're going to have to pass.


The big giveaway for major worry in humans?... We either gasp, or stop breathing.
A change in respiration is obvious to a dog's ears, as it's believed they can HEAR our heartbeats
when on leash & within a yard or so - breathing changes immediately sound a klaxon of alarm in any dog's
mind.

So... practice.  See another dog WITHOUT Ur dog present; take a deep breath, smile, say 'Hi'
[aloud or in Ur head - whichever]. See another dog, SMILE - even with Ur dog there, happily, pleasantly.
Make an admiring murmur - or _'awww...'_, - or say, _'Cute!'_, any simple, happy comment; brief.

Smiling & playing a role seems really stoopid, but if it helps [& it can!], it's worth finding that inner actor.

DROP Ur SHOULDERS - that's another big telltale, tension brings them up toward Ur ears. Down & back,
consciously.

Use RESCUE REMEDY for *U* - dot it on one's wrists, under & behind the ear like perfume, inner elbow -
any pulse-point that's convenient. Sounds silly? - It helps, many times.
[I use it when i can't sleep. :yesnod: Better than a restless night, & no side-FX. :thumbup: ]
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> ...
> Putting [the Perfect-Fit Harness] on Spen for he first time was fun --- it was like something off Krypton Factor.
> 
> Not helped by Spen trying to *throw himself into it*, any chance he got... because it's a harness,
> & *that's what you do with harnesses.*


:lol: Never seen a dog "lunge INTO" a harness to wear it, that's a great image - altho my Akita adored her
tracking harness, as it was the only time she was allowed to PULL - very exciting, she could barely stand still
to have it buckled [only one snap-in buckle, & still she'd jig with excitement]. :laugh:

I love the picture i have in my head of Spen leaping like a lunatic into the harness, every time U try
to pick it up - say, to put it away...  
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Muttly said:


> Ah!... that's a good tactic, with the "treat through the head hole".
> I think i'll try this, when I get the new one.


 Better yet: Assemble tools
- clicker or other distinct, unique marker [LED flash, anyone?...]
- harness or other item to be happily introduced
- a surface above the floor, convenient FOR THE DOG's height
- high-value, 90% protein treat [lickable, pea-sized or half-pea]

Use a footstool, overturned dishtub, coffee table... depending on dog's leg-length;
U want the harness to lie about level with the dog's sternum, between their forelegs -
that gap between the front legs, when they're standing.

Set the harness on the apropos-height surface.
if needed or desired, add an ODOR or a LURE or a CALMATIVE [DAP, lavender water, ____ ].
U can lay a piece of kibble amid the straps, a bit of dried whitefish, whatever.

As soon as the dog LOOKS at it [distant but an interaction] MARK & reward.

Dog STEPS toward it [ditto] MARK & reward.

Dog LOWERS nose toward it / no contact [closer...] MARK & reward.

Dog TOUCHES - to take the lure, to nose the scent, just curious? [Contact! ] MARK & reward.

Keep raising the criterion for mark / treat; once s/he has touched it several times, don't mark or reward "looks".

Eventually, U can easily shape the dog to put THEIR head into the neck opening, or if the dog hates
anything overhead, shape STANDing to have it laid gently over the shoulders, remove, hold it, THE DOG gets
under it as U hold it, MARK & treat, hold it there for a few seconds, etc.

Build duration & persistence until the dog can stand quietly but happily for all buckles to be fastened -
no accidental punches to human noses by the dog's skull, etc.  Yup, it happens.

here's a 1st-time session introducing a box-muzzle to an untrusting ACD:






Notice how accurate her marking is, the click! is precisely timed; the dog very quickly grasps what
is a rewarding action, & confidently approaches / touches the muzzle, whilst still eyeing the stranger
with deep suspicion. :sosp: typical ACD! :001_tt2:
.
.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> :lol: Never seen a dog "lunge INTO" a harness to wear it, that's a great image - altho my Akita adored her
> tracking harness, as it was the only time she was allowed to PULL - very exciting, she could barely stand still
> to have it buckled [only one snap-in buckle, & still she'd jig with excitement]. :laugh:
> 
> ...


That's pretty much how it goes every time we're going out lol. I was standing there untangling the lead yesterday at my parents and he just reared up, shoved his head through the harness and sat there wearing it upside down with his tail wagging. He doesn't bother when I take it off to put it away thankfully lol.

I know some would be appalled at the lack of manners but it makes me laugh  All it takes is a "wait" to have him sit and wait (impatiently!) for me to be ready.


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