# How NOT to handle resource guarding



## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

If there was ever any question about why its not a good idea to hit a dog, this is a good example of why.

Poor Holly... Never mind all the very clear signals of distress and distrust she is sending Cesar. From her perspective she just got attacked for no reason, so the next time that hand comes at her she makes sure it doesnt have a chance to hurt her again.

If your trainer has bite wound cleaning supplies on hand, its generally not a good sign. If youre getting bitten on a regular basis as a trainer, me thinks there might be a problem there... And its not with the dogs...

Dog Whisperer: Showdown with Holly - YouTube


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Wow. What horribly uncomfortable viewing, I could hardly stand to watch it - neither could the dog's owner judging by his expression at times.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I only watched the beginning, couldn't bear the rest of it. That dog wasn't even food aggressive really, to my mind. She was quite happy with him standing near until he tried to move the bowl, so why move the bowl? And his stance is just like some superhero! 

I saw a clip once where the dog just put both his paws on his lap and he started hitting it round the head. I do wish someone would do us all a favour and use him for bait.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

that was awful viewing , not only was she slapped round the head she were kicked too after biting cesar in his attempts to get her off him.
there is no way this man should be a dog trainer my only thought was she should have bit him harder! poor , poor dog the owner should have put a stop to it all.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

I would say when you have a dog exhibiting the body language that one was and you hit it, then go to touch its head with the same hand you should expect the dog to protect itself. 

From what I heard on the vid the dog had shown aggression to the owner but I don't believe force and violence back is the answer.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Some good training techniques there...from the dog.

"Get on my nerves, and I will bite your hand."

Big pat on the back for the dog for following through.

Just a shame that I doubt it will not stop him continuing his methods.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Out of interest how does one handle resource guarding?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

diablo said:


> that was awful viewing , not only was she slapped round the head she were kicked too after biting cesar in his attempts to get her off him.
> there is no way this man should be a dog trainer my only thought was she should have bit him harder! poor , poor dog the owner should have put a stop to it all.


Had she done that, he would no doubt have declared her a red zone dog and had her pts.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Luz said:


> Out of interest how does one handle resource guarding?


Usually a question of making sure all is quiet, putting the dog's bowl down empty, then gradually taking small pieces of food into your hand, letting him either sniff or eat, then putting the food into the bowl gradually. In other words, with gentleness and patience.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Awful, very uncomfortable to watch. The poor dog looked quite distressed 

I don't understand how anyone could think that was a good way to train a dog that was resource guarding, especially someone who considers themselves an 'expert'


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Cheers just wondering for the future. Not anything we have really had a problem with.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Had she done that, he would no doubt have declared her a red zone dog and had her pts.


see what your saying i'm thinking cesar needs to watch that back then ask himself 'is he truly a dog lover'


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

Luz said:


> Out of interest how does one handle resource guarding?


Resource guarding is about fear and lack of trust. A dog that trusts you doesnt fear that you will take his food away.

I really like Jean Donaldsons Mine as a RG primer. 
With our guarder we started by simply managing his environment so that he didnt feel the need to guard. We put his food down in a separate room, let him in and closed the door. When he was done he would ask to come out. You can do this with a crate too. With some more persistent guarders this leads to them guarding the room or the crate, but you can counter that by simply switching up where they eat. Just always make sure the dog is undisturbed when eating.

For many folks management is enough. No need to push things further. However in our household we have 3 other dogs, and two young kids who often have friends over, so we needed to know that if that unsupervised moment happens, it would be okay. To that end we did a lot of trust building exercises, hand feeding, and then finally, as the dogs are settled down to eat, we walk up to them and add yummy add ons to their food - usually leftovers. So the dogs make a very positive association with someone approaching their bowl.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Resource guarding is about fear and lack of trust. A dog that trusts you doesnt fear that you will take his food away.
> 
> I really like Jean Donaldsons Mine as a RG primer.
> With our guarder we started by simply managing his environment so that he didnt feel the need to guard. We put his food down in a separate room, let him in and closed the door. When he was done he would ask to come out. You can do this with a crate too. With some more persistent guarders this leads to them guarding the room or the crate, but you can counter that by simply switching up where they eat. Just always make sure the dog is undisturbed when eating.
> ...


'Mine' was a great book to read. My two have had various levels of resource guarding; Toby loves his raw hide chews & with Roxy is was everything (except food from some reason).

We have mainly managed to overcome all problems; the dogs will eat & have raw ghide chews next to each other but I would never leave them alone with these (risk of choking being one but also that Toby can still get a bit possessive).

Roxy's guarding was the most complicated as it involved the bed, the chairs, toys, my OH & I but as she settled in she became less sorried about losing her things


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Awful, very uncomfortable to watch. The poor dog looked quite distressed
> 
> I don't understand how anyone could think that was a good way to train a dog that was resource guarding, especially someone who considers themselves an 'expert'


I don't understand how anyone can watch this bully treat their dog that way and just stand and watch! I'd have thrown him off the property long before.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't understand how anyone can watch this bully treat their dog that way and just stand and watch! I'd have thrown him off the property long before.


Milgram effect.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Milgram effect.


I think that's true unfortunately.

I used to attend a dog training class with Toby where I used to live & there was a stand in trainer one week. She was such a bully, was awful to the people & treated the dogs quite roughly but none of us said anything at first

Toby was getting stresssed & wouldn't go in to a down. This woman came storming over to us & demanded to know what I did when Toby disobeyed me. I was quite shocked & started to say something about trying to work out why he wasn't doing something, etc when she suddenly moved towards him with her arm up as if she was going to hit him 

I pushed her & away & told her if she touched my dog I would knock her out - I don't know where that came from as I'm not a violent person but there was no way I would have stood there doing nothing.

It went very quiet & she sort of mumbled some excuse - the rest of the class was very strained & I was so glad that she never came back again.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I think that's true unfortunately.
> 
> I used to attend a dog training class with Toby where I used to live & there was a stand in trainer one week. She was such a bully, was awful to the people & treated the dogs quite roughly but none of us said anything at first
> 
> ...


Good for you! I would have done the same, only might have just gone for the action not the threat. This is why I do not believe there is any such thing as a dog trainer. There are people who know dogs, and people who do not, and there are people who can do wonders with one dog but cannot ever get through to another dog.

This woman obviously had no business calling herself a dog trainer.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow, that vid was insane. To be fair though, my dog has done this to myself :/ ouch... not because I hit him though! He was a rescue and I was unaware of his resource guarding, I was naive and didnt acknowledge his body language!

It progressed to the point where he would guard the sofa, beds and chews! I put a long line on him almost permanently so I could move him out the way when I needed to sit down or go to bed etc. he soon gave it up when he realised it wasn't getting him anywhere and no one was phased in the slightest! With bones, I would hold them while he chewed them, any sign of aggression and I would simply remove it from him. If he had it in his mouth I walk up and down with the lead till he got bored and just dropped it. 

Dogs guard for all sorts of reasons but trust is mostly the main factor. The way CM handled this situation basically reinforces her fears and you can't bully fear out of anyone!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sezeelson said:


> Wow, that vid was insane. To be fair though, my dog has done this to myself :/ ouch... not because I hit him though! He was a rescue and I was unaware of his resource guarding, I was naive and didnt acknowledge his body language!
> 
> It progressed to the point where he would guard the sofa, beds and chews! I put a long line on him almost permanently so I could move him out the way when I needed to sit down or go to bed etc. he soon gave it up when he realised it wasn't getting him anywhere and no one was phased in the slightest! With bones, I would hold them while he chewed them, any sign of aggression and I would simply remove it from him. If he had it in his mouth I walk up and down with the lead till he got bored and just dropped it.
> 
> Dogs guard for all sorts of reasons but trust is mostly the main factor. The way CM handled this situation basically reinforces her fears and you can't bully fear out of anyone!


So which one of you has more right to call himself a dog trainer? You, or the pratt who earns millions by showing off his abuse on the telly?


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

He makes me sooooo mad!!!what in the hell was he thinking?
he deserved to get bitten,that poor dog


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Shame she didn't bite harder. She should never have been put in that position in the first place. The bloke is an idiot, the last thing you want to do with a resource guarder is reinforce the fear that their valuable possession is going to be stolen from them.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Been looking into Holly (the Lab involved). It seems CM tells the owners he has changed her behaviour, but she will never be safe around children.

So he took her off their hands to join his pack of "unruly" dogs.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

"Oh I didn't see that coming"

Oh really? Because everyone with a brain who knows dogs did you imbecile!! I am so angry that he has a show over here now, he should never be allowed a platform to miseducate people and set back dog training further.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

In fact I have no idea which channel is showing him over here now, does anyone know? I'd like to start sending in weekly complaints until it gets pulled, perhaps recommend they seek out Victoria Sitwell instead.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> In fact I have no idea which channel is showing him over here now, does anyone know? I'd like to start sending in weekly complaints until it gets pulled, perhaps recommend they seek out Victoria Sitwell instead.


National Geographic. And they have just started broadcasting a new series.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> National Geographic. And they have just started broadcasting a new series.


Sad that such a prestige channel has gone so downhill.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I watched 10 seconds of the video then turned it off. Awful to watch. Poor dog, I'd probably react exactly the same way if someone tried to take my plate of chips away from me too.  

Poor dog. That man just doesn't realise how much damage HE has caused to thousands of people and their dogs... the old saying "ignorance is bliss" comes to mind here sadly.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Been looking into Holly (the Lab involved). It seems CM tells the owners he has changed her behaviour, but she will never be safe around children.
> 
> So he takes her off their hands to join his pack of "unruly" dogs.


Ive been trying to follow up on this, episode just aired last night. I was wondering what the outcome was.

This news makes me so sad. It also makes me angry.
Our former resource guarder who climbed up the asses a hand and bit the shelter evaluator IS now safe around children. He IS comfortable with people around his food, and he lives very safely and comfortably with young kids and their friends in and out. He also just recently passed his therapy dog testing.

These cases are NOT hopeless and to label a dog that you have just attacked as one who will never be safe just makes my blood boil. Utterly unfair. What life will the dog have now that the great" Cesar has labeled him unsafe?


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## Chris81042 (Sep 16, 2012)

DOGS ARE VERY USEFUL AND VERY IMOPORTANT PAT FOR LIFE \.

So please everyone should love dog and love.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I've been trying to follow up on this, episode just aired last night. I was wondering what the outcome was.
> 
> This news makes me so sad. It also makes me angry.
> Our former resource guarder who climbed up the asses a hand and bit the shelter evaluator IS now safe around children. He IS comfortable with people around his food, and he lives very safely and comfortably with young kids and their friends in and out. He also just recently passed his therapy dog testing.
> ...


He mentions Holly here, and a pic is included. http://www.cesarsway.com/newsandevents/cesarsblog/Why-Im-Speaking-Out-Against-Bullying

Also The Dog Whisperer | Other Shows | TV Club | TV | The A.V. Club states after weeks of trying to work with Holly, he breaks it to the family she shouldn't live with the toddler.

ETA: Incorrect link


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> He mentions Holly here, and a pic is included. Why I
> 
> Also The Dog Whisperer | Other Shows | TV Club | TV | The A.V. Club states after weeks of trying to work with Holly, he breaks it to the family she shouldn't live with the toddler.
> 
> ETA: Incorrect link


Right. So basically his methods did NOT work as the dog still ended up losing her home and NOT being safe around children. This is what gets me. He is NOT fixing these dogs!!

And Im not naive. I do accept and agree that some dogs just shouldnt live with kids, some dogs are just mismatched in their homes. I get that. But for a supposed expert who claims no dog is too much for me to fail so miserably with such an incredibly common and fixable behavior and then blame the dog and condemn him as unfixable just burns me up.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Attack Mode said:


> He mentions Holly here, and a pic is included. Why I
> 
> Also The Dog Whisperer | Other Shows | TV Club | TV | The A.V. Club states after weeks of trying to work with Holly, he breaks it to the family she shouldn't live with the toddler.
> 
> ETA: Incorrect link


Whenever I have had a toddler in the house I have made sure they don't approach the dog whilst he is eating. Admittedly I haven't had any resource guarders, but then I don't think this dog was one either. I see no reason why this could not have been done anyway. Work with the dog? Abuse the dog, make sure she cannot be trusted so that he can say he is the only one who can deal with her.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Right. So basically his methods did NOT work as the dog still ended up losing her home and NOT being safe around children. This is what gets me. He is NOT fixing these dogs!!
> 
> And Im not naive. I do accept and agree that some dogs just shouldnt live with kids, some dogs are just mismatched in their homes. I get that. But for a supposed expert who claims no dog is too much for me to fail so miserably with such an incredibly common and fixable behavior and then blame the dog and condemn him as unfixable just burns me up.


I agree entirely. I doubt he has ever fixed any dog permanently to be honest, only long enough for the cameras. After that, who knows? I would like to point out that Victoria Stilwell has only ever once to my knowledge recommended that a dog should not be kept with the children, and that was a spaniel with rage syndrome as diagnosed by the vet.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

Well, its not like this dog (Holly) doesnt give ample warning. Its not like its not wholly predictable aggression. And frankly, hard as it was, that was still an inhibited bite. Shes not out to do damage, she just wants him to back the hell off. 

Baby gates work wonders. Dog is eating? Separate kids and dogs. What is that maybe 20 minutes in one day? 10 minutes am 10 pm? Its really not difficult to manage a resource guarder in a home with kids. I dont blame people for not wanting to take that chance, but if youre willing, it is quite doable.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

What the **** is he doing here??????

Dog Whisperer Got Bitten (Spanish) - YouTube


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh poor Holly, how can he possibly say he didn't see that coming?? I mean really, she was trying every trick in the book to express how uncomfortable she was with the situation 

I can't believe this guy as still at it, he hasn't changed at all

Could rant all day about the guy, makes me appreciate the REAL trainers out there. 
I wish I could say that Holly found her happy ending, but tbh sounds like she's stuck with this *** for life now. :incazzato:


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

jeez there are so many videos of him being bitten on youtube,and everytime,the dog gives him warning which he ignores.
an absolute moron!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Well, its not like this dog (Holly) doesnt give ample warning. Its not like its not wholly predictable aggression. And frankly, hard as it was, that was still an inhibited bite. Shes not out to do damage, she just wants him to back the hell off.
> 
> Baby gates work wonders. Dog is eating? Separate kids and dogs. What is that maybe 20 minutes in one day? 10 minutes am 10 pm? Its really not difficult to manage a resource guarder in a home with kids. I dont blame people for not wanting to take that chance, but if youre willing, it is quite doable.


Geez! When my grandson was born and living with us, we had a dog who positively despised children in any situation. It was not that difficult once he started toddling to teach him to keep away from the dog, who did help by climbing up on the windowsill out of the way.

It seems that nowadays a lot of people discover their dog is not perfect and think he needs some bully boy pseudo trainer, when all he needs is compromise and a little management.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Poor poor Holly  Another victim of the dog botherer.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

I agree, my dog is now safe around children after over coming his resource guarding. Im always watchful with kids around my dog as all dog owners should be. I will stuff his food bowl Down when it's quiet and he is done in 2 mins no dramas and no problems! The kids know to respect the dog and the dog knows to respect the kids .


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> jeez there are so many videos of him being bitten on youtube,and everytime,the dog gives him warning which he ignores.
> an absolute moron!


have you seen the one where he is pulling the dogs head only to be bitten!

i wouldnt be too happy with someone yanking my neck around like that,

these poor dogs.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

If i was eating my dinner & a stranger came along, sat infront of me & then helped themself to my food i'd be pretty annoyed too


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I've not seen the full show, only that clip. The dog was fine until CM moved it's food, why on Earth would he do that.Surely once the bowl is on the floor then it's the dogs, in the same way that when a persons plate is on the table it's theirs. No one comes and takes a plateful of food away while you're still eating it, so why do it to a dog.

If it's to do with children messing about with the dog while it's eating, the answer is simple and won't get you bitten. Teach them to leave the dog alone while it's eating.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

OMG! i just watched this and i cant believe it!

what a p!"£k! If someone smacked me in throat when i was eating my dinner id f!"£$%g bite them too!!!!! :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

jetsmum said:


> I've not seen the full show, only that clip. The dog was fine until CM moved it's food, why on Earth would he do that.Surely once the bowl is on the floor then it's the dogs, in the same way that when a persons plate is on the table it's theirs. No one comes and takes a plateful of food away while you're still eating it, so why do it to a dog.
> 
> If it's to do with children messing about with the dog while it's eating, the answer is simple and won't get you bitten. Teach them to leave the dog alone while it's eating.


They go on about how in an emergency you might have to take the dogs food away so you have to teach it to accept it and submit to your will yada yada yada. I can count on one hand the number of times I've absolutely HAD to take food away from my dog. That's 4 dogs over 18 years. There have been more times than that when I have taken it away but where it wouldn't have been the end of the world had I not been able to.


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## Tillymint (Nov 2, 2010)

I couldn't watch it from the point where he grabbed the bowl, found it too upsetting.
Tilly was a food guarder & although I mistakingly made it worse before I made it better through bad advice, I worked through it using various techniques I read about over a period of a few months. My favourite was sitting on the floor with her food in 4 bowls, playing swaps with bowls & adding things. It was worth being patient & earning her trust. She will now move away from her bowl if I ask her no matter what is in it


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Resource guarding is about fear and lack of trust. A dog that trusts you doesnt fear that you will take his food away.
> 
> I really like Jean Donaldsons Mine as a RG primer.
> With our guarder we started by simply managing his environment so that he didnt feel the need to guard. We put his food down in a separate room, let him in and closed the door. When he was done he would ask to come out. You can do this with a crate too. With some more persistent guarders this leads to them guarding the room or the crate, but you can counter that by simply switching up where they eat. Just always make sure the dog is undisturbed when eating.
> ...


*Have i understood you right?Are you saying that a dog that is food aggresive (sp) doesn't trust its owner?*


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Have i understood you right?Are you saying that a dog that is food aggresive (sp) doesn't trust its owner?*


Yes, a dog who guards does not trust his owner when it comes to food. He may trust his owner in other areas, but not with food (or whatever resource hes guarding). Its a fear behavior - fear of losing the resource. Its also a very normal dog behavior.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Yes, a dog who guards does not trust his owner when it comes to food. He may trust his owner in other areas, but not with food (or whatever resource hes guarding). Its a fear behavior - fear of losing the resource. Its also a very normal dog behavior.


*You are so wrong imo..My dog trusted me 100%.*


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *You are so wrong imo..My dog trusted me 100%.*


So if he trusted you not to take things off him why did he feel it was necessary to guard them from you?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Okay so i just watched the video and i have to ask how long has this guy been 'rehabilitating dogs'?? Just before he was bitten he was saying "you can see here the relaxation" ermmm funny i didnt see that i saw a very nervous dog that didnt want a stranger invading her personal space like some crouching tiger hidden dragon ninja!! If i was a dog, then again even if i wasnt, and someone came up in my face like that i would most certainly bite him, though i would be aiming else where nothing about that poor dog is relaxed.

I started frey out early in regards to resource guarding, i would pick up her food and ask her to walk away, if she did then she got a tasty treat for doing it, that way she learns that me touching her food/bones (and toys) is a good thing as she can get something out of it. She is 4 years old and i still do this with her every now and again, just to make sure that she knows its still a good thing

Just reposting my response as i still think the same, he is a complete and utter idiot


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *You are so wrong imo..My dog trusted me 100%.*


How could he trust you if you couldnt take things away from him?? There is 2 reasons why i taught frey that i can take anything off her. 1: so she is not aggresive to me or anyone else when it comes to her 'things' 2: if she picked something up in the street i want to make sure that i can take it straight off her, god knows what could be in food on the street


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

tashax said:


> Okay so i just watched the video and i have to ask how long has this guy been 'rehabilitating dogs'?? Just before he was bitten he was saying "you can see here the relaxation" ermmm funny i didnt see that i saw a very nervous dog that didnt want a stranger invading her personal space like some crouching tiger hidden dragon ninja!! *If i was a dog, then again even if i wasnt, and someone came up in my face like that i would most certainly bite him,* though i would be aiming else where nothing about that poor dog is relaxed.
> 
> I started frey out early in regards to resource guarding, i would pick up her food and ask her to walk away, if she did then she got a tasty treat for doing it, that way she learns that me touching her food/bones (and toys) is a good thing as she can get something out of it. She is 4 years old and i still do this with her every now and again, just to make sure that she knows its still a good thing
> 
> Just reposting my response as i still think the same, he is a complete and utter idiot


I doubt you would bite him. You would be too busy wetting yourself at the stupid pose he does as he stares you out. 










Then if you did laugh at him, or bite him he would give you one of these (with his "good" hand if bitten):


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Attack Mode said:


> I doubt you would bite him. You would be too busy wetting yourself at the stupid pose he does as he stares you out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The pose is now and forever more the milan crouching tiger hidden moron


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

tashax said:


> How could he trust you if you couldnt take things away from him?? There is 2 reasons why i taught frey that i can take anything off her. 1: so she is not aggresive to me or anyone else when it comes to her 'things' 2: if she picked something up in the street i want to make sure that i can take it straight off her, god knows what could be in food on the street


*I could take anything away from him accept food.I had him about 2 years before i even knew there was a problem with food.I had put down his food,lent across him to get his water bowl and he reacted just like the dog in the video.He obviously had this problem when i took him on.As i stated in the other thread,i learnt to live with it.*


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *You are so wrong imo..My dog trusted me 100%.*


Im sorry it offends you to think that your dog might not trust you in this area, but as your dog came to you this way, clearly you did not create this problem.

I dont find it useful to be in denial about realities with dogs. I have a dog who I love dearly and trust more than the other 3 with my children, but I do not trust him at all when it comes to little dogs or prey animals. It doesnt make him any less of a great dog, or our relationship any less wonderful, its just a reality about him that I accept. 
In the same way, some dogs, for different reasons, will never be 100% trustworthy around kids, around food, around high value treats... It doesnt necessarily mean youre a horrible owner, but it sure doesnt do any good to be in denial about it either.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jetsmum said:


> I've not seen the full show, only that clip. The dog was fine until CM moved it's food, why on Earth would he do that.Surely once the bowl is on the floor then it's the dogs, in the same way that when a persons plate is on the table it's theirs. No one comes and takes a plateful of food away while you're still eating it, so why do it to a dog.
> 
> If it's to do with children messing about with the dog while it's eating, the answer is simple and won't get you bitten. Teach them to leave the dog alone while it's eating.


Precisely. To be honest, before these two I have never really known whether I had a food guarder or not as the rule in our house was always no one touches the dog while he is eating, not the kids, not the adults, not anyone. No one's ever been growled at for going near though, so I suppose they were all right. I sometimes have to move these out of the way to get past when they are eating, and I have had to take something out of the bowl which shouldn't have been there, it was an egg shell I think. I have also had to swap their bowls over because Diva went for Ferdie's and he wouldn't eat hers.

When I was a child, probably only about five, I remember very clearly being in a greasy Joe's with my mum having egg and chips, and daydreaming like children do, looking about instead of getting on with my dinner. The waitress thought I had finished and whisked the plate away. I screamed the place down, everyone was looking, mum couldn't shut me up. She had already tipped it away and I wouldn't shut up until she brought me another plate of egg and chips.

I would probably have bitten her had she been close enough!



JANICE199 said:


> *You are so wrong imo..My dog trusted me 100%.*





JANICE199 said:


> *I could take anything away from him accept food.I had him about 2 years before i even knew there was a problem with food.I had put down his food,lent across him to get his water bowl and he reacted just like the dog in the video.He obviously had this problem when i took him on.As i stated in the other thread,i learnt to live with it.*


Precisely, you learned to live with it. You managed the situation, you did not go creeping up on the dog with a pseudo Jackie Chan stance and start moving his bowl and hitting him.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Im sorry it offends you to think that your dog might not trust you in this area, but as your dog came to you this way, clearly you did not create this problem.
> 
> I dont find it useful to be in denial about realities with dogs. I have a dog who I love dearly and trust more than the other 3 with my children, but I do not trust him at all when it comes to little dogs or prey animals. It doesnt make him any less of a great dog, or our relationship any less wonderful, its just a reality about him that I accept.
> In the same way, some dogs, for different reasons, will never be 100% trustworthy around kids, around food, around high value treats... It doesnt necessarily mean youre a horrible owner, but it sure doesnt do any good to be in denial about it either.


*Firstly i'm not offended,and secondly i'm not in denial.I just don't agree with you when you say its down to trust.*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

poor dog that man is an absolute numbskull! hes a danger to not just dogs but the naive members of the public who actually copy this Idiots methods!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Firstly i'm not offended,and secondly i'm not in denial.I just don't agree with you when you say its down to trust.*


If it's not a trust issue then what is it? And why is it usually so easily resolved by teaching the dog that you're not going to take its possession away?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

You can look at it anyway you want, ultimately it is a trust issue to begin with.

You say your dog came with the problem, ok maybe the behaviour is learned from not trusting the previous owner and your dog doesn't know how else to react? Maybe your dogs litter mates always pushed him out the way for food and now worried everyone else will do the same. It could be instinct or what ever you want it to be but it started because your dog could no longer trust anyone around his food through fear of losing it. 

You learned to manage it but what if you really wanted to overcome it? You have have to use trust building methods to ultimately overcome the problem, you have to teach your dog that you are there to give and not to take. I can only see this as a trust issue and I would love to hear your thoughts about it


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2012)

This blog post about the incident is worth a read:
Pushed Too Far « Wilde About Dogs

Jancice, Im glad to hear you were not offended


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

F** hell, I shed a tear watching that. I have a ex??/guarder. There is no way it will help the situation going Jackie Chan at it.

Teh dog looked uncomfortable about starting to eat too, as it looked away as if to say, what I have to eat my dinner with his ugly mug in my face. 

FWIW I don't think you can 100% cure a guarder, but with good management and good practice (as per Jean Donaldsons "MINE") you can have a dog that 99.99999% of the time will be reliable and the other times will probably only grumble. If you are honest any dog can guard when forced into a situation its never been in before. Just manage the kids/adults too.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Amy-manycats said:


> F** hell, I shed a tear watching that. I have a ex??/guarder. There is no way it will help the situation going Jackie Chan at it.
> 
> Teh dog looked uncomfortable about starting to eat too, as it looked away as if to say, what I have to eat my dinner with his ugly mug in my face.
> 
> FWIW I don't think you can 100% cure a guarder, but with good management and good practice (as per Jean Donaldsons "MINE") you can have a dog that 99.99999% of the time will be reliable and the other times will probably only grumble. If you are honest any dog can guard when forced into a situation its never been in before. Just manage the kids/adults too.


Do you know what i didnt say, even though frey has been taught that any person can take any thing off her she still guards. If a cat or dog or ferret even approaches her while she is eating she will react, i just make sure that she can have her dinner in peace which is what she has the right to do


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Not surprised to see that the monthly "Let's Burn Ceasar" at the stake posts are still alive and kicking on PF 

Looking at things from a positive angle - Ceasar presented us with a shining example of how NOT to deal with a RG dog, so just MAYBE people watching will have the intelligence to think "Crikey - even Ceasar gets bit when he approaches a dog in that way so that's obviously not the way to do it!"

Could it be that the general dog owning public are not all as thick as some people would make out? 

Speaking for myself, I neither like nor dislike Ceasar. I'll watch him if there's nothing else on but I wouldn't rush home to watch him. I didn't see the episode so don't know what led up to the family calling him in. It's a bit unfair to start a witch hunt based on one small clip without knowing the background. JMO


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> Not surprised to see that the monthly "Let's Burn Ceasar" at the stake posts are still alive and kicking on PF
> 
> Looking at things from a positive angle - Ceasar presented us with a shining example of how NOT to deal with a RG dog, so just MAYBE people watching will have the intelligence to think "Crikey - even Ceasar gets bit when he approaches a dog in that way so that's obviously not the way to do it!"
> 
> ...


Its not just one clip, the abuse he performs on the poor dogs he 'rehabilitates' has gone on far too long and its time he stopped making out like he knows what he is doing


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

tashax said:


> Its not just one clip, the abuse he performs on the poor dogs he 'rehabilitates' has gone on far too long and its time he stopped making out like he knows what he is doing


Someone way up there at Nat Geo clearly thinks that he know's what he's doing or he wouldn't have been given so many Seasons of his show  Maybe it's just because of his very shiny teeth??

Still, I suppose it is America where the use of shock collars & prongs still seems to be the norm so what do you expect?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> Someone way up there at Nat Geo clearly thinks that he know's what he's doing or he wouldn't have been given so many Seasons of his show  Maybe it's just because of his very shiny teeth??
> 
> Still, I suppose it is America where the use of shock collars & prongs still seems to be the norm so what do you expect?


I think its because his shows have so many viewers, they wouldnt give up their ratings


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sezeelson said:


> You can look at it anyway you want, ultimately it is a trust issue to begin with.
> 
> You say your dog came with the problem, ok maybe the behaviour is learned from not trusting the previous owner and your dog doesn't know how else to react? Maybe your dogs litter mates always pushed him out the way for food and now worried everyone else will do the same. It could be instinct or what ever you want it to be but it started because your dog could no longer trust anyone around his food through fear of losing it.
> 
> You learned to manage it but what if you really wanted to overcome it? You have have to use trust building methods to ultimately overcome the problem, you have to teach your dog that you are there to give and not to take. I can only see this as a trust issue and I would love to hear your thoughts about it





ouesi said:


> This blog post about the incident is worth a read:
> Pushed Too Far « Wilde About Dogs
> 
> Jancice, Im glad to hear you were not offended


*Now i have a problem with the part i've highlighted..You say that " i have to teach the dog i'm there to give and not take away", and yet the arguement on this thread is about dogs that don't like their food being taken away.
Now rightly or wrongly,i just see it that as i wouldn't want someone taking away food that i've been given,i could understand why my boy didn't..Now don't get me wrong,for safety reasons i have always been able to take anything from my dogs apart from Saracen.
Can anyone honestly say what goes on in a dogs mind? I personaly think not.*


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> If it's not a trust issue then what is it? And why is it usually so easily resolved by teaching the dog that you're not going to take its possession away?


I think there maybe a "trust" definition issue here. It doesn't mean he thinks you're going to hit him. In this context it's taking resources away.

Dief has no problem giving up a ball to me because in all probability I will throw it for him to chase ( or if the game has ended put it in my pocket and take out a treat to swap ). He has issues giving up his ball to another dog because all they will do is run off with it and not give it back or exchange it for anything.

In your case it may simply be that there have not been enough trials of your hands being close to his food for him to know that you're not going to take it away. I'm lucky I had him from a pup and so he knows exactly what is going to happen.. or in this case what isn't going to happen.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> Not surprised to see that the monthly "Let's Burn Ceasar" at the stake posts are still alive and kicking on PF
> 
> Looking at things from a positive angle - Ceasar presented us with a shining example of how NOT to deal with a RG dog, so just MAYBE people watching will have the intelligence to think "Crikey - even Ceasar gets bit when he approaches a dog in that way so that's obviously not the way to do it!"
> 
> *Could it be that the general dog owning public are not all as thick as some people would make out? *Speaking for myself, I neither like nor dislike Ceasar. I'll watch him if there's nothing else on but I wouldn't rush home to watch him. I didn't see the episode so don't know what led up to the family calling him in. It's a bit unfair to start a witch hunt based on one small clip without knowing the background. JMO


Judging by the number of people I meet who tell me how great Cesar Millan is, yes I do think they are as thick as I think they are.

And one small clip is quite enough coming from someone who portrarys himself as an expert on dogs, when he obviously knows sod all about them.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Judging by the number of people I meet who tell me how great Cesar Millan is, yes I do think they are as thick as I think they are.
> 
> And one small clip is quite enough coming from someone who portrarys himself as an expert on dogs, when he obviously knows sod all about them.


*I think he is great so i guess i'm one of the "thick" people your talking about.What happend to people having different opinions?*


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think he is great so i guess i'm one of the "thick" people your talking about.What happend to people having different opinions?*


How can you think he's great after watching that clip?!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Shadowrat said:


> How can you think he's great after watching that clip?!


*Strange how people only pick out certain parts..Did you see the follow up video?Nobody is all bad,as people make them out to be.*


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Strange how people only pick out certain parts..Did you see the follow up video?Nobody is all bad,as people make them out to be.*


Are we talking about the follow up video of CM with the husky, rottie, Holly and Junior, that poor absolutely terrified little pit? Because if thats the one you mean, Junior's reaction to him alone made me shake my head in sadness; that dog was terrified of him. My dog has never rolled onto his back and licked his lips manically when I've turned to look at him. If he did, I'd be ashamed.

Anyone who punches an obviously terrified dog is despicable, as far as Im concerned, and I can't see how any dog lover could watch this man punching, kicking, terrifying and bullying dogs and think he's brill.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Judging by the number of people I meet who tell me how great Cesar Millan is, yes I do think they are as thick as I think they are.


I think that's a little unfair. In the past if youtube is anything to go by his episodes have been editted in his favour and not everyone sees every episode or the youtube clips. You get a lot more exposure to that side by being a member of this forum. I didn't see this episode but I'm not sure what he's trying to do here other than see if the dog will fight him. The neck jab is just ridiculous but it's a far cry from a psst by the doorway and has nothing to do with being calm and assertive.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now i have a problem with the part i've highlighted..You say that " i have to teach the dog i'm there to give and not take away", and yet the arguement on this thread is about dogs that don't like their food being taken away.
> Now rightly or wrongly,i just see it that as i wouldn't want someone taking away food that i've been given,i could understand why my boy didn't..Now don't get me wrong,for safety reasons i have always been able to take anything from my dogs apart from Saracen.
> Can anyone honestly say what goes on in a dogs mind? I personaly think not.*


I never claimed to honestly know exactly what was going on in my dogs mind when his teeth where imbedded in my hand but I have a pretty good feeling about what was going through his mind :S and I ment give and not take just in general not just food or high value items. I may not have the right to presume what my dog is thinking but i certainly have the right to walk past my dog eating without him attacking my foot, I also have the right to Take a plastic bag away from him or a food wrapper away that he has just stolen from the bin or a the roll of toilet paper he has decided is now his. I also have the right to sit on my sofa if and when I chose to and get into my own bed whenever I chose to, all without getting savagely bitten. Maybe you have only experienced a very minor case of resource guarding? But it can be a very seriouse behaviour problem that can't just be managed by giving the dog of extra space when feeding. I understand that this thread is primarily about guarding the dinner bowl but when you have to deal with it on a larger scale you would realise how big a deal trust is.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Ohh dont get me started on the calm assertive bull **** that comes out of his mouth. None of the dogs he works with are calm assertive, they are nervous and mostly petrified


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You are so wrong imo..My dog trusted me 100%.*


How do you know that when you believe no one knows what goes on in a dogs mind 



JANICE199 said:


> *Can anyone honestly say what goes on in a dogs mind? I personaly think not. *


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think he is great so i guess i'm one of the "thick" people your talking about.What happend to people having different opinions?*


What happened to discussing differing opinions? Why is it okay for your opinion to be different than mine but not okay for my opinion to be different than yours?

I try very hard (dont alway succeed, but do try) to base my opinions on evidence and facts. 
The evidence shows that Millan was bitten which in turn saddles the dog with a bite history. 
The evidence shows the dog still lost his home. 
The evidence does not point to the dog being rehabilitated as Millan deems her unsafe as a family dog further limiting the possibility of Holly finding a forever home.

None of that points to Millan being great in my opinion.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> ...[Cesar] presented us with a shining example of how NOT to deal with a RG dog, so just MAYBE
> *people watching will have the intelligence to think, "Crikey - even [Cesar] gets bit when he approaches
> a dog in that way, so that's obviously not the way to do it!"*
> 
> Could it be that the general dog owning public are not all as thick as some people would make out?


sadly, he's been getting bitten on a fairly-regular basis from Season-One onward, & *none* of his fans 
that i've met thus far, have said, "well, gee, if even HE gets bitten doing this, maybe i shouldn't do that!..." 
Loads of ppl imitate him slavishly & spout the phrases he uses as if they're Gospel truth, no matter 
how many times he's bitten.

IMO, he pushes dogs to the breaking-point & then blames the dog for the outcome; he seems to either 
miss dog-signals, or misinterpret them wildly when he DOES see them; i can't fathom it.

many of his fans actually use bites as justification, saying, "See? That's a bad dog - that dog BIT him!", 
as if Cesar's actions had zip to do with the bite... when IMO & IME, his actions *caused* the dog to bite.
 i've largely given-up on fans of CM/DW, Prattison, Frawley, & other harsh-handling trainers. 
They will either come out of their coma & notice the dog's desperate signals, or they'll remain unconscious 
& only listen to their dawg-wrasslin' guru of choice. :nonod: It's a real shame.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tashax said:


> I think its because his shows have so many viewers, they wouldnt give up their ratings


controversy sells air-time, & car-accidents attract gawkers, too - but we don't *stage* car-crashes [yet!]...
i wonder if TV-news crews frantic for a draw will eventually start asking for volunteers to crash?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> many of his fans actually use bites as justification, saying, "See? That's a bad dog - that dog BIT him!",
> as if Cesar's actions had zip to do with the bite... when IMO & IME, his actions *caused* the dog to bite.


Sadly too many people think that a dog should never, ever bite, no matter what the provocation and that any dog who would is a bad dog. So many times I've heard people say that if their dog ever so much as growled at a child the dog would be put to sleep.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Sadly too many people think that a dog should never, ever bite, no matter what the provocation and that any dog who would is a bad dog. So many times I've heard people say that if their dog ever so much as growled at a child the dog would be put to sleep.


They get a dog but don't actually want it to be a dog, they want it to be some sort of animated toy that the brats can pull around with no repurcussions. My kids have always been taught that if the dog growls at them, they back off and find out the cause.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Strange how people only pick out certain parts..Did you see the follow up video?Nobody is all bad,as people make them out to be.*


 Yes, I'm sure that only beating some dogs makes him a swell fellow. We should take that attitude with all things..

"She only murdered that person. What about all the other people she's met and didn't kill?"

"He only bullies a few kids. Most of the other school kids are not bullied. He's not that bad"

I'm curious to know Janice, how many dogs does Cesar have to beat before you think he is not that bad?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Yes, I'm sure that only beating some dogs makes him a swell fellow. We should take that attitude with all things..
> 
> "She only murdered that person. What about all the other people she's met and didn't kill?"
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, avid DW fans will not admit that he hurts one single dog, so your argument will never penetrate. I have always said that they should never have locked up Reggie Kray - after all, he only killed other bad guys didn't he?


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Sadly too many people think that a dog should never, ever bite, no matter what the provocation and that any dog who would is a bad dog. So many times I've heard people say that if their dog ever so much as growled at a child the dog would be put to sleep.


It has been interesting to see the threads on this video unfold on forums stateside. Embarrassingly there really are a lot of folks who proudly boast they would shoot a dog who did what Holly did. 
Thats why I always say, Karen Pryor wasnt being inflammatory when she titled her book Dont shoot the dog. Still today right here in the buckle of the bible belt, youre more likely to find folks who would shoot a dog for simple resource guarding than try to fix it by any means.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> It has been interesting to see the threads on this video unfold on forums stateside. Embarrassingly there really are a lot of folks who proudly boast they would shoot a dog who did what Holly did.
> Thats why I always say, Karen Pryor wasnt being inflammatory when she titled her book Dont shoot the dog. Still today right here in the buckle of the bible belt, youre more likely to find folks who would shoot a dog for simple resource guarding than try to fix it by any means.


They would have a "praise the lord" session first though, wouldn't they?

I get very annoyed with people who, as I said before, don't think a dog is a separate species. That is half the problem, really. I would hope that the majority of people buying a horse would bother to learn all they could about them, as I did, but when it comes to dogs they just think they are humans in furry overcoats.

If CM came anywhere near my dogs like that, he would be the one who was shot!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Unfortunately, avid DW fans will not admit that he hurts one single dog, so your argument will never penetrate. I have always said that they should never have locked up Reggie Kray - after all, he only killed other bad guys didn't he?


*And to be fair, that works both ways..I've yet to hear anyone who doesn't like him say what good he has done.*


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *And to be fair, that works both ways..I've yet to hear anyone who doesn't like him say what good he has done.*


Well what good HAS he done?  Literally the only thing I can think of is that he's getting the message out that dogs need exercise.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *And to be fair, that works both ways..I've yet to hear anyone who doesn't like him say what good he has done.*


To be honest, Janice, the only good thing I have seen him do was to help rescue all those poor dogs who were stranded and starving after the Katrina hurricane that destroyed New Orleans.

I don't think, from what I recall, that a single dog was euthanised because of the efforts of animal rescue workers, including Cesar Millan, and yes he did take a lot of the dogs himself as no other home was forthcoming.

I would like to know why he has changed so much. I used to watch his show and there was never any of the brutality that we see today. I never saw him treat even an aggressive dog the way he treat this labrador and I distinctly remember him saying he would never normally use a shock collar when he put one on the bc who kept chasing tractor wheels.

I was a bit disappointed with the way he never criticised an owner, even the woman who dyed her poor little dog pink, but I never saw any of this.

I think he has got very bullying since those early days and that is why I and others dislike him so much now. He hasn't learned anything, he has just got worse in his assumptions that he is right.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *And to be fair, that works both ways..I've yet to hear anyone who doesn't like him say what good he has done.*


I don't like him. Still appreciate any attention that he brings to certain countries with animal problems and dog centres etc. he can do some good. he seriously needs educating though.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Sarah1983 said:



Well what good HAS he done?  Literally the only thing I can think of is that he's getting the message out that dogs need exercise.

Click to expand...

 Then you don't know as much as i do about CM..Perhaps you should find out a few more things.


newfiesmum said:



To be honest, Janice, the only good thing I have seen him do was to help rescue all those poor dogs who were stranded and starving after the Katrina hurricane that destroyed New Orleans.

I don't think, from what I recall, that a single dog was euthanised because of the efforts of animal rescue workers, including Cesar Millan, and yes he did take a lot of the dogs himself as no other home was forthcoming.

I would like to know why he has changed so much. I used to watch his show and there was never any of the brutality that we see today. I never saw him treat even an aggressive dog the way he treat this labrador and I distinctly remember him saying he would never normally use a shock collar when he put one on the bc who kept chasing tractor wheels.

I was a bit disappointed with the way he never criticised an owner, even the woman who dyed her poor little dog pink, but I never saw any of this.

I think he has got very bullying since those early days and that is why I and others dislike him so much now. He hasn't learned anything, he has just got worse in his assumptions that he is right.

Click to expand...

Ok just a couple of things.He took on Daddy,and i will never see where he did anything wrong with him.
He has made it well known,pitbulls are not the dogs to pts just because of their breed.
Also what about the dogs he rescued from the puppy farm?
you see, he isn't all bad.*


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> Ok just a couple of things.He took on Daddy,and i will never see where he did anything wrong with him.
> He has made it well known,pitbulls are not the dogs to pts just because of their breed.
> Also what about the dogs he rescued from the puppy farm?
> you see, he isn't all bad.*


Yeah he has done good for pitbulls, but so have others. Daddy was only 4 months old when millan took him on, the rapper that owned him was seeking out someone capable of caring for him properly so I doubt he would of gone to negative home.

In my experience daddy's behaviour was down to his breeding rather then millans 'training'


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> Then you don't know as much as i do about CM..Perhaps you should find out a few more things.
> 
> Ok just a couple of things.He took on Daddy,and i will never see where he did anything wrong with him.
> ...


You say he "took on" Daddy as though he was a problem dog. He wasn't. He was a dog bought on a whim by someone who didn't have time for him.
Pitbulls have never had a problem in the United States and he has made no impact on them being banned in the UK, which he might well have done had he made enough fuss about it.
I don't know about the puppy farm so I won't comment.

The fact that he is not "all bad" is irrelevant really. Hitler wasn't all bad either; he loved children and they loved him, so long as they weren't Jewish children. Reggie Kray wasn't all bad - little old ladies felt safe walking about the East End at night and so did children.

Doesn't alter the fact that he should not be calling himself a dog psychologist or whatever other silly title, when he cannot tell when a dog is unhappy and thinks that calming signals from a dog is excitement.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

- the New Orleans / hurricane Katrina dogs *were already IN a rescue - * he offered to "help 
with behavior issues", he did not RESCUE them nor did he offer to help re-home them.

- similarly with the various other rescue-organizations, like the one in so-Cal?, i think, which brought 
street-dogs across the border from Mexico; he worked with their terrified Chi, who later was found 
to have severe joint-issues & whom he mishandled on camera, trying to force her to walk: The dogs 
were already in the custody of licensed non-profits, he only offered to help with their BEHAVIOR.

- Daddy was, as pointed out by others, a perfectly-normal puppy who was an impulse-buy on the 
part of a rock-star wannabe; the man traveled constantly & had no time for a dog, let alone a puppy. 
Spending time housetraining & socializing a pup simply wasn't on the daily roster.

- Plenty of other organizations have done more for pitbulls' public-image than CM/DW - 
but they don't have the built-in soapbox of a weekday national TV-show. "Animal Farm" in NY-state 
runs both a rural sanctuary & training / foster facility, & a Manhattan adoption-storefront for pibbles.
Sue Sternberg runs wt-pulls for pittie-types which reward ppl who give their bully-breed GOOD things 
to do, rather than build aggro & encourage her/him to fight; her wt-pull programs are in dozens 
of cities, reaching out to teens & preteens to break the circle of violence that engulfs pit-types.
Bay-Area BAD RAP & Los-Lobos dog rescue have both earned national-reputations with their 
campaigns to end BSL & improve the lot of all bully-breeds & their mixes.

BEST FRIENDS of Utah took the time & money to work with the ASPCA & HSUS to save the survivors 
of Sick-Vick's "bad-newz" dog-fighting kennel; BEST FRIENDS took in the unadoptables as lifelong 
sanctuary residents, & rehabbed others for pet-homes, as did BAD RAP in San-Fran. Many of the dogs
who graduated their B-mod are now therapy pets, working with elders or children or hospital patients, 
& some are literacy-k9s who listen to children read, providing a nonjudgmental ear & some 
social support to readers whose skills are below their peers'.

CM/DW with all his personal fortune, has done nothing like that - nor has his 'Foundation'.

The biggest thing his 'foundation' has done is introduce CM/DW textbooks into middle-schools, 
which i frankly regard with more horror than happiness, & 2 college-level courses in k9-behavior 
in a university - again, i can't rejoice over the dissemination of anti-science to a captive audience; 
university-students are supposed to exercise critical thinking, but given the prestige reflected upon 
CM by the national spotlight of media-hype & Natl-Geo's [FORMER] reputation for scientific accuracy,
any naive 18-YO can be forgiven for thinking that if it's on the class roster, it must be "real science".
 yeah, right. 'The right energy can *cure* aggression.'


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## BananaBassett (Apr 24, 2012)

Personally I wouldn't let him near my dog after witnessing that. I would be quite insistent upon drop kicking him out of the house, despite being small - when there's a will there's a way.

I have had many a customer spout out his phrases and his way of behaving and it makes me outwardly cringe. I don't remember him ever condoning physical violence toward any dog, aggressive or nervous etc, in his early days. However - maybe due to myself having more knowledge and understanding of canine body language and calming signals now, or simply due to the media going to his head- he certainly seems to lack compassion for Holly and cares more about bullying her into achieving his reputation as dog whisperer. Sorry Ceaser, it doesn't appear to have worked. 

It just shows that any idiot can call themselves a behaviorist, when truth is, those of us who aren't - who just care about our dogs, take the time to learn their reactions, and quirks- are probably better than those that are .... Charging in excess £40+ an hour!! I'm fortunate enough not to need one but those who do? I feel for you. If even the "biggest star of behavior" is a crook, I can imagine its a long hard road to find a genuine one. Thumbs up to all of you who watched this and physically recoiled.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> - the New Orleans / hurricane Katrina dogs *were already IN a rescue - * he offered to "help
> with behavior issues", he did not RESCUE them nor did he offer to help re-home them.


I was going by a barely remembered episode of his programme which was aired shortly after. It was all I could think of that he had done something useful in when Janice asked, and I was trying to compromise!

I know it is not her topic, but by contrast VS got a downtrodden shelter up and running and rehoming by rounding up local tradesmen to give materials and services, and getting volunteers from all over. She chose to use her name and her time to help, so why can't he do the same?



BananaBassett said:


> Personally I wouldn't let him near my dog after witnessing that. I would be quite insistent upon drop kicking him out of the house, despite being small - when there's a will there's a way.
> 
> I have had many a customer spout out his phrases and his way of behaving and it makes me outwardly cringe. I don't remember him ever condoning physical violence toward any dog, aggressive or nervous etc, in his early days. However - maybe due to myself having more knowledge and understanding of canine body language and calming signals now, or simply due to the media going to his head- he certainly seems to lack compassion for Holly and cares more about bullying her into achieving his reputation as dog whisperer. Sorry Ceaser, it doesn't appear to have worked.
> 
> It just shows that any idiot can call themselves a behaviorist, when truth is, those of us who aren't - who just care about our dogs, take the time to learn their reactions, and quirks- are probably better than those that are .... Charging in excess £40+ an hour!! I'm fortunate enough not to need one but those who do? I feel for you. If even the "biggest star of behavior" is a crook, I can imagine its a long hard road to find a genuine one. Thumbs up to all of you who watched this and physically recoiled.


I heard he charges $350 an hour. I know what you mean though; it makes me cringe when I hear someone spouting off about what dogs do in the wild and how you have to be the pack leader, and other crap that he has emphasised and is so outdated.


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## BananaBassett (Apr 24, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I heard he charges $350 an hour. I know what you mean though; it makes me cringe when I hear someone spouting off about what dogs do in the wild and how you have to be the pack leader, and other crap that he has emphasised and is so outdated.


I meant in our area , but flipping heck £350 an hour to beat up your dog?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

BananaBassett said:


> I meant in our area , but flipping heck £350 an hour to beat up your dog?


yup - back when CM/DW actually *took* individual cases, which he no longer does & has not 
for years, he charged $360-USA per hour, & had CEOs of major corporations engage in bidding wars 
to buy his services for the day, paying thousands for the privilege of an 8-hr day exclusively for them 
& their dog's issues --- often throwing in lunch in the exec dining-room or a private copter-shuttle 
from the airport as fringe benefits.

meanwhile, individual trainers compete with PetsMart's group-class rates of $120 to $150-USA 
for a 6-week series of classes, without PetsMart's economies of scale cutting operating costs to the bone: 
everything from paper for printed exercises at home, to clickers or treats, leashes & collars, etc, 
are all hugely cheaper for the giant corporation than for the solo trainer, yet pet-owners don't want to pay 
more than they would for a patterned one-size-fits-all group-class of a dozen ppl & their dogs, for a small 
class of 6 or less dog & handler teams. They want the ATTENTION of more one-to-one time, but they 
aren't willing to pay for that time, attention, & personalized protocols designed for them & their dog. 


In strong contrast, big-names can charge outrageous fees - literally all that the market will bear; 
yet they do no more, & often do less, than the solo trainer struggling to cover their costs plus a small profit.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2012)

Wanted to update with this video of the Holly debacle. I thought it offers a lot of good explanations and shows how hard she tried to avoid the bite.

Show down with Holly slow motion - YouTube


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