# Please help, my 2 dogs just had a fight:-(



## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

I have 2 bitches, one is 2 and the other is 6 months. Both the very best of friends, well trained and a pleasure to have

Earlier they were playing and then one of them found a pen lid on the floor, the youngest was chewing it, I went to take it off her but then my eldest jumped on her and was growling and trying to get it out of her mouth. She then got on her and was really nipping at her face. It terfified my child, he was screaming and the pup was screaming too.


My eldest has never ever shown agression, she is such a lovely dog.

Now my youngest is too scared to go near her, I have the other in the crate and the little one sitting on the floor in their room, she is terrified and keeps huddling in the corner.

I let them both out together to have a wee before I crated the eldest, but she went for her again, she is nipping at her mouth thinking that the pen top is still in there but is being terribly aggressive.

I don't know what to do, the pup is terrified and won't go near the crate, they are usually so good together.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Is there a possibility the young one might be coming into season shes approaching the right age for it? I had a similar problem with mine. The youngest came at 12 weeks she was fine with her until she had a season. The older one started on the younger even though she had been spayed for 10 years. Its not uncommon for this to happen the existing female will challenge the new one or vice versa. I just had to be really careful that they had nothing to compete over and not leave them alone when I was not there. Food toys chews treats are usually the main triggers. Also attention and if they are in a confined space. It is frightening and of course you have to watch it with kids about. A lot of it can be verbal and posturing and look worse than it is but it can escalate, You dont say what breed they are? Mine reverted back to normal after the season finished as I said yours is getting to be about the right age to start hormone changes and maybe a season is on the way. You do need to be careful the young one may back down or she could get to a position where she retaliates. If you lack experience or have any doubts it might be an idea to get a behaviourist to asses the dogs. There is a limit to what we can tell you and how much we can help on here.


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

disnt just want to read and not reply but think you need someone better and more experienced than me . only thing i could suggest is it possible to take them out for a walk together 

good luck :thumbup:


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2010)

Bitches do have scuffles! and they can turn real nasty!! The younger one is maybe testing the ground! or as someone else has said it could be down to their seasons!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2010)

well they know who the boss is now:thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sweetie said:


> I have 2 bitches, one is 2 and the other is 6 months.
> Both the very best of friends, well trained and a pleasure to have


hey, sweets!  
are both or either desexed? [spayed] if not, i would do so ASAP - much F-to-F aggro is hormonal. 
at 6-MO the younger F may be close to estrus - i would take her in immediately if she were intact 
and mine, and get her spayed forthwith.

bitch-wars can be very difficult indeed to repair - i would recommend an IN-PERSON experienced 
trainer credentialed via APDT-uk, COAPE or APBC - *no "listener", franchise-trainer, "whisperer"* 
or any other 'popular' currency is qualified for B-Mod, IMO - they can install basic manners, like any 
dog-savvy pet-owner would, but B-mod and especially *aggression in any form* is well beyond 
their depth. 
_Click to Calm_ is one helpful DIY book for NOW while U are looking for pro-help - 
it should be readily available at the local library, if need be by interlibrary loan from another.

2 or more intact-Fs in the same home is always potentially-fraught - *spaying can reduce aggro 
but will not eliminate aggro - even spayed-Fs with a past-history of aggro require careful 
management + definitely, supervision - * leaving them together UNsupervised is IMO foolhardy, 
as a fight with injuries or just a spat, but with severe further-damage to their relationship, can arise 
at any time; preventing the rehearsal of aggro is critical.

CALMATIVES can also help - see post #22 in the Dog-Body-Language sticky for loads of calmatives, 
relaxation tips, what to give + how, etc; they are all OTC and very, very safe - no risk of overdose, 
no interactions, no side-effects. 
good luck, 
- terry


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you for all your helpful replies.

Yesterday I thought things were going ok, our 2 year old border terrier was behaving around Lola our Shihtzu, but Lola was still very timid. She kept on hiding from her and was scared if she came near her but both seemed fine in the cage.

This morning though, they were lying nicely in the living room and then were rolling around having a little roll around/play fight, no aggression, just behaving normal with eachother then suddenly our border terrier starts growling loudly and biting Lolas face, Lola starts helping and runs away.

It's so out of character, there has never been any aggression and they've been the best of friends since we got Lola.

Neither are spayed but that is something we will look into.

I'm scared because I have children. Our border has always been soft as a brush but now I feel so nervous, and I hate seeing Lola so scared in her own home. I don't know what to do, she just keeps suddenly turning on Lola:-(


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Sorry I meant 'yelping', damn predictive text


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you so much, lots to look into



leashedForLife said:


> hey, sweets!
> are both or either desexed? [spayed] if not, i would do so ASAP - much F-to-F aggro is hormonal.
> at 6-MO the younger F may be close to estrus - i would take her in immediately if she were intact
> and mine, and get her spayed forthwith.
> ...


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sweetie said:


> Thank you for all your helpful replies.
> 
> Yesterday I thought things were going ok, our 2 year old border terrier was behaving around Lola our Shihtzu, but Lola was still very timid. She kept on hiding from her and was scared if she came near her but both seemed fine in the cage.
> 
> ...


 I take it when you mean they are fine in the cage you mean that they each have their own one or ones in a crate and ones not?? They arnte in one together are they? Confined areas are one of the kick off triggers if they are. I would also avoid letting them play at lease for a while in play either can get typed up and over excited just from the play and that can cause things to go a bit too far and cause them to kick off. I would deffinately avoid it and especially toys and treats like chews anything thats lining them up to cause them to compete and challenge. ALso watch feeding times. Feed one or both in the crate if you hav two. Door shut bowls up before you let them out. Food another major trigger. Also watch the attention and petting do not fuss one. Thats another trigger. Visitors coming watch them then vying for attnetion from the visitors another trigger. The more you remove the reasons for them to compete thats aare few less times for them to trigger fights. I wouldnt especially let the kids eat on the sofa or have snacks there too with the dogs running loose a dropped bit of food is a hazard.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sweetie said:


> It's so out of character, there has never been any aggression
> and they've been the best of friends since we got Lola.
> Neither are spayed but that is something we will look into.


U have kids - are they the same as the day U brought them home as newborns? 
of course not  they are older, more independent, have preferences and their own minds + wills. 
likewise in dogs, *ages are Stages - * the younger dog is pubertal; the elder is socially + physically adult. 
one is an 11 or 12-YO girl, the other is 21-YO and recognized by other dogs as an adult.

*bitches don't share territory well - they see it as the space where they will rear their children, 
and may decide, "there ain't enuf-space fer the two of us - it's me OR U, and i say mine!"*

keeping them SEPARATE whenever there is any potential item to contend over [food, a toy, a visitor...] helps; 
drag-lines on BOtH to remove them from any situation are also a good idea. 
individual crates are a Must! and shipping-crates are better than wire AKA show-crates; 
the more-enclosed denlike feeling is secure, vs visually-open wire cages just pin them down in space.

terriers are thin-skinned and reactive/excitable; if something exciting is going to happen 
[a visitor, package-delivery, etc] separate the dogs AHEAD of time with a baby-gate, give them 
each something to keep them occupied [a stuffed + frozen Kong with half of brekkie in it, 
MADE AHEAD in the freezer, is a good busywork item], and put the terrierrrist farther from the door 
or further from the excitement [the plumbing-repair, the cable-installer...].

they aren't "sisters" - they're dogs, one a pre-teen and one a young woman, both struggling 
with this issue of turf - imagine an adult-daughter sharing a bedroom with an 11-YO sister? 
kinda the same - altho bitches take it a step further and want to chuck each other out in the street, 
not just argue over who borrowed whose clothes/make-up and reading diaries.
- t


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

It could be the pup coming into season; the older dog could have felt that the pup was in danger with the pen top as you were trying to get it off her, but if they usually best of friends it won't take long (apart from a lot of bravery on your part) for them to get back to how things were hopefully. I would ensure the child is well out of the way and then remove the dog from the crate (she will feel she's being punished now in there) and allow them to meet up. Keeping a keen eye on them and do not leave them together alone until you are sure they are okay again. The pup needs reassurance from the older dog that things are okay but at the end of the day like someone else said, they are growing up each day and these things can happen, hopefully not that badly again. We have 2 males and luckily haven't had problems this bad. Fingers crossed!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JohnMorris said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> It could be the pup coming into season; *the older dog could have felt that the pup was in danger
> [from] the pen-top* as you were trying to get it off her...


john, do U seriously think the elder-F thought to herself, _"pen-caps are dangerous, she could CHOKE..."_ 
and having thought that, which is pretty high-order, she would then conclude that beating her up 
would protect her from choking? *if she thought the First-thing, thinking the 2nd would be really 
stoopid -* and for myself, i Do Not believe she thought _"pen-caps can Kill!..."_


JohnMorris said:


> *bold + underline added - *
> 
> ...but *if they [are] usually best of friends it won't take long* (apart from a lot of bravery on your part) *for them to get back to how things were hopefully.*


and U base this statement, "it won't take long to be best-buddies again", on What - exactly? 
just let them both free, watch them a bit, and everything will be happily-ever-after?


JohnMorris said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I would ensure the child is well out of the way and then remove the dog from the crate (*she will feel she's being punished now in there*)...


why would the dog in the crate feel "punished"? if it's the Shih-Tzu, she probably thanks her stars 
that she is safe from her homicidal-maniac terrierrrist housemate.


JohnMorris said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...and allow them to meet... [Keep] a keen eye on them and *do not leave them together alone until you are sure they are okay again.*


and how much time without fights would be sufficient to ensure that U could run a 30-min errand and not come home to stitches, a punctured eyeball, or a severed ear?... 
or quite possibly, one dog bleeding out and the other badly injured? 
a month? 6-mos? *things don't miraculously "go back to how they were", there is a Before + an After - 
this is After*; most bitches with a past-history of bloodletting can NEVER be left alone unsupervised, 
even if U are at home - let alone to go to work, spend 2-hours on groceries and errands, etc. 
we are talking lifelong supervision even after months or years of no bloodletting, not one puncture.


JohnMorris said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> *The pup needs reassurance from the older dog that things are okay* but at the end of the day...


why does the pup need "reassurance"? and if she needs reassurance, which i frankly doubt, 
why cannot she get it thru the crate-door - vs potential full-body contact with the chance of injury?


JohnMorris said:


> *bold + underline added - *
> 
> ...they [grow older] each day and *these things can happen, hopefully not that badly again.
> We have 2 males and luckily haven't had problems this bad. *


males do not fight over TURF the way Fs do - they tend to fight over a current resource, temporary 
[a pig-ear] or permanent [access to the best-view spot on the sofa]. 
territory is the home-space + forever; treats, bones, toys, attention from humans, etc, 
is transitory and a passing thing; *rarely* do Ms living in the same-home kill one another, 
even if they fight repeatedly - ripped ears, punctured lips, yes - but not torn throats + crushed tracheae.

bitches do not just quarrel with bloodshed now + then - many, once blood is shed, are waiting 
for an opportunity to *eliminate the interloper permanently*, not just rough-up their roomie 
over whose pizza that was, taken from the freezer and eaten without permission.

even intact-Ms *so long as there are NO intact-Fs in estrus to quarrel over* can often cohabit lifelong, 
with a squabble or a puncture now + then, but never a life-and-death fight. 
2 neutered-Ms who have not had a pre-desex history of serious fights are extremely unlikely to fight 
with severe injuries [if they already HAD caused serious injuries before desex, they might again, 
even after desex]. but Ms are typically fighting over an EVENT - this thing now - not *this space is MINE.* 
- terry


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> john, do U seriously think the elder-F thought to herself, _"pen-caps are dangerous, she could CHOKE..."_
> and having thought that, which is pretty high-order, she would then conclude that beating her up
> would protect her from choking? *if she thought the First-thing, thinking the 2nd would be really
> stoopid -* and for myself, i Do Not believe she thought _"pen-caps can Kill!..."_
> ...


Excellent post ! X


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Excellent post ! X


I'll second that!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally I wounldn`t keep 2 entire bitches. The problem being that when bitches fall out they get serious. 
I would keep them separate for now (use baby gates etc.) and get a good behaviourist in. 
Don`t take chances with 2 bitches - it can get nasty.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> males do not fight over TURF the way Fs do - they tend to fight over a current resource, temporary
> [a pig-ear] or permanent [access to the best-view spot on the sofa].
> territory is the home-space + forever; treats, bones, toys, attention from humans, etc,
> is transitory and a passing thing; *rarely* do Ms living in the same-home kill one another,
> ...


How do you know the fight is over turf? I mean *know*. Not assume, know. In lots of household, there are multiple unspayed bitches who don't fight - one friend of mine has 3, no problems.


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> john, do U seriously think the elder-F thought to herself, _"pen-caps are dangerous, she could CHOKE..."_
> and having thought that, which is pretty high-order, she would then conclude that beating her up
> would protect her from choking? *if she thought the First-thing, thinking the 2nd would be really
> stoopid -* and for myself, i Do Not believe she thought _"pen-caps can Kill!..."_
> ...


Oh dear what a good job not everyone picks holes in everyones OPINIONS and suggestions like that. I am overwhelmed by the fact that we have such an expert on dogs here that obviously has all the answers. In future perhaps you may be left to answer and save us all the effort.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes weve always had a large crate and both sleep in there together. Weve had no problems before.

It is strange because when our Border goes for our Shihtzu it comes out of the blue, there are no treats involved or games, they may just be playing together or just walking around?



Sled dog hotel said:


> I take it when you mean they are fine in the cage you mean that they each have their own one or ones in a crate and ones not?? They arnte in one together are they? Confined areas are one of the kick off triggers if they are. I would also avoid letting them play at lease for a while in play either can get typed up and over excited just from the play and that can cause things to go a bit too far and cause them to kick off. I would deffinately avoid it and especially toys and treats like chews anything thats lining them up to cause them to compete and challenge. ALso watch feeding times. Feed one or both in the crate if you hav two. Door shut bowls up before you let them out. Food another major trigger. Also watch the attention and petting do not fuss one. Thats another trigger. Visitors coming watch them then vying for attnetion from the visitors another trigger. The more you remove the reasons for them to compete thats aare few less times for them to trigger fights. I wouldnt especially let the kids eat on the sofa or have snacks there too with the dogs running loose a dropped bit of food is a hazard.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ok, I know little about crates, but it seems to me that while this aggression is going on, putting them in there together is a definite no, no. You say the pup is scared; how is she going to feel being stuck in a cage with the thing she is scared of? She won't be able to get away if the other dog turns on her again.

Imagine being shut in a cage with something you are frightened of.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you all for your replies, and help. I appreciate it.

I am really nervous about how things may be changing here with the 2 girls. I have children and am abit scared incase this carrys on between our dogs, but I shall follow the advice given and hope that eventually it does stop. If not then I am not sure how I will manage it, I guess I would have to seek professional help?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sweetie said:


> ...I am not sure how I will manage it, I guess I would have to seek professional help?


several people have already suggested getting a *credentialed* pro to help - 
COAPE, APBC or APDT-uk, or a veterinary-behaviorist.

when things go sour between 2 Fs, the situation is serious + the sooner pro-help is sought, 
the better the prognosis, IME.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sweetie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> ...


I really wouldnt put them in a crate together at the moment especially as you have said it can come out the blue. Ive had 4 females over the years and adults and kept them in number 2 out the 4 havent been spayed when they came any aggro has come in season when its started over very little to nothing or the only other very rare occasion over a resorce when neutered.
Even then over 18 years I can count the times on one hand in total. Both of yours are entire ie not spayed Its possible that one or both are getting raised hormone levels in preparation for their seasons to come out the blue like this its the most likely explanation. You say theres no reason but dont forget theres body language and small nuances in canine communication thats probably so slight the untrained eye would miss it. This is all the more worrying if it was over the usual triggers i mentioned food attention confined spaces toys etc then at least you have a chance to remove the triggers at least which incidently I would still do dont give them any reason at all to start at least ones that can be avoided.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> How do you know the fight is over turf? I mean *know*. Not assume, know.


i don't *know - * but the owner has said there's no food, toy, highly exciting event, etc. 
that tends to point to the classic bitch-war: Turf.  i can only offer my experience, based on 
the owner's info - and that's what we have so far.

i strongly encourage the owner to hire a highly-qualified professional ASAP - 
not a "listener", franchisee, or "whisperer", but a CAAB, certified pet-behavior counselor, 
vet-behaviorist, APBC, an experienced APDT-uk trainer *with aggro-experience 
in B-Mod,* or the equivalent... not a 'basic manners' trainer.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just one last thing that I would echo several other posters if you are out of your depth I really think you need to consider professional help in the form of a behaviourist trainer. Ive even called one in. I had owned 4 by them looked after a pack of 14+ huskys on several occasions and picked up numerous strange dogs and ferried them across country so I wasnt exactly a total novice and even I come to a point and got a behaviourist as I recognised I needed help on one. Theres no shame admitting you might need that extra bit of help especially if your inexperienced. Do think about it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I really wouldnt put them in a crate together... especially as you have said
> [fights] can come out [of] the blue.
> 
> You say "theres no reason" [to fight] but dont forget theres body language and small nuances
> ...


definitely agree! :thumbup: *rep!* the fact that U don't see the preceding signals means 
that any number of signals could be in conversation, and if U cannot see the EARLY signs - 
which may be very subtle - the fight will appear to arise spontaneously, when really there are alarms. 
they just aren't obvious.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

I shall get looking. Thank you.



leashedForLife said:


> several people have already suggested getting a *credentialed* pro to help -
> COAPE, APBC or APDT-uk, or a veterinary-behaviorist.
> 
> when things go sour between 2 Fs, the situation is serious + the sooner pro-help is sought,
> the better the prognosis, IME.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks very much.

My Border was in season about 2 months ago, and she is the one that's being aggressive towards our Shihtzu.



Sled dog hotel said:


> I really wouldnt put them in a crate together at the moment especially as you have said it can come out the blue. Ive had 4 females over the years and adults and kept them in number 2 out the 4 havent been spayed when they came any aggro has come in season when its started over very little to nothing or the only other very rare occasion over a resorce when neutered.
> Even then over 18 years I can count the times on one hand in total. Both of yours are entire ie not spayed Its possible that one or both are getting raised hormone levels in preparation for their seasons to come out the blue like this its the most likely explanation. You say theres no reason but dont forget theres body language and small nuances in canine communication thats probably so slight the untrained eye would miss it. This is all the more worrying if it was over the usual triggers i mentioned food attention confined spaces toys etc then at least you have a chance to remove the triggers at least which incidently I would still do dont give them any reason at all to start at least ones that can be avoided.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

I shall definitely be looking for someone local to get some advice.

Thank you.



Sled dog hotel said:


> Just one last thing that I would echo several other posters if you are out of your depth I really think you need to consider professional help in the form of a behaviourist trainer. Ive even called one in. I had owned 4 by them looked after a pack of 14+ huskys on several occasions and picked up numerous strange dogs and ferried them across country so I wasnt exactly a total novice and even I come to a point and got a behaviourist as I recognised I needed help on one. Theres no shame admitting you might need that extra bit of help especially if your inexperienced. Do think about it.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Another thing I've forgotten to mention is that my Border has been sniffing around my Shihtzu's bottom area alot recently? 

She also walks around her very slowly and will sit there watching her with her tail wagging, like a dog would when watching a cat or something before they pounce? My Shihtzu sits very still and looks scared to move.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sweetie said:


> ...I [forgot] to mention... my Border has been sniffing around my Shih-Tzu's bottom... a lot recently?
> 
> She also walks around her very slowly and [sits] watching her with her tail wagging, like a dog would
> when watching a cat or something before they pounce? My Shih-Tzu sits very still and looks scared to move.


that sounds like 2 things - 
* the terrierrrist is stalking the pubertal-pup + the pup is quite-rightly scared out of her mind; 
her housemate is terrorizing her with this threatening behavior. 

* the pup is approaching estrus - please see Ur vet, and ask about suppressing her estrus via injection? 
this will allow her to be spayed much sooner, without WAITING thru a 3-week to 5-week long heat, 
with limited exercise, the hassle of Ms pestering her or hanging about the house, etcetera, plus any 
complications - false-preg, pyometra, or other complications like a urinary-infection - which add More Time.

UTIs are 3 to 4-times as likely during and just after any estrus, as the dog licks so much to 
clean-up any discharge; their mouth/tongue carries bacteria from the peri-genital area 
or from anywhere else, with the hair [around the mouth], the lips or tongue as the carrying agent.


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

I must just comment on what I went through a few years back with my two boys..... German shepherds.... so two big boys..... Ninyo was 6 when we brought 8 week old Conoch home..........Things were fine for ages but, then...........Ninyo just couldnt stop attacking his little brother and I mean attacking..............several holes in the neck area.... several times a week at some stages.......Eventually, we worked it out that it was mostly over attention.....definately over toys.......Conoch only started to really play with toys last year when old Ninyo was pts...... He was a pretty frightened gsd..... and became my shadow......Ninyo, on the other hand, always just did what he wanted to...My fault I know....We got to the stage of just watching and waiting for the Tails to rise and then stand in to sort the situation out before they went any further......Although, when we then introduced Kai (9stone of Malamute) into the house, we then had 3 rather large boys, luckily all neutered....... Kai was the one to start a rumble, always over food.... he was very agressive when we got him at first......He was all talk though and never did any harm to the other two..... One day he was having a growl at Conoch and Ninyo actually jumped in to protect his wee brother and Kai literally threw him across the lawn..... Again, all growls and no harm done.....
It is lovely to see that Conoch accepts his new little sister into the house and has finally found a wee playmate......... Although she is a very cheeky little ball of fluff..... Good luck in sorting your girls out..... Hopefully once they are both spayed you will see a big difference although remember it may take a fe months after the operation for them to get rid of all hormones etc..... Pamx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

it sounds as tho U had Ur hands full with the 3 males, one arguing over food and the elder-GSD being 
owner of all toys, that's too bad - but no serious injuries, so that part is good! 


pamela Renfrew said:


> Hopefully once they are both spayed you will see a big difference although
> remember it may take a [few] months after the operation for them to get rid of all hormones etc...


actually the *hormones* drop precipitously - that's why the false-preg occurs in intact-Fs, 
after estrus ends, and false-preg can also be triggered by *interrupting* estrus lead-in by spaying; 
that's why i really encourage the owner to see her vet ASAP and ask about suppressing her estrus 
[imminent, according to her terrierrrist-housemate] so that she can be scheduled for a spay 
just as soon as possible.

the quicker both are spayed, the better IMO.  and they cannot practice any more aggro - 
learned + practiced behavior becomes harder + harder to Un-Learn. :nonod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JohnMorris said:


> ...not everyone picks holes in everyones OPINIONS and suggestions like that.


sorry, john, if U feel picked-upon  i tend to call'em like i see'em, and after over 30-years of dogs 
as a trainer, i have seen, met and worked with many dogs, M + F, of many breeds - 
the seriousness and risk of F-to-F aggro between housemates is not only *my* opinion; 
many other breeders and trainers will concur, M-to-M aggro is generally less dangerous and also 
more-easily managed, as avoiding precipitating triggers is pretty simple - give them nothing 
to argue over [no toys, food, treats, special privileges] and they will rarely fight.

for bitches *the presence of the other F-dog IS the precipitating trigger - * so keeping them 
securely segregated until competent help can be found to assist with B-Mod is really about the only option. 
*bitch-wars in dogs * are serious - google the phrase with or without the hyphen, 
and see what i mean - there will be plenty of war-stories. 
- terry


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## pamela Renfrew (Jun 9, 2010)

Oops... sorry.... Leashedforlife..... I stand corrected !!! Having my first ever bitch in my life, in the house, I am certainly learning a lot...... Just presumed it would be similar to males !!!! Got that one wrong !!!! I have just purchased "The Book of the Bitch"...... so I shall start to find time each day to read a little as I dont usually read much...

Pamx


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Never had a bitch, never wanted one because of all the seasons and things, and this thread is not encouraging me to change my mind. I will stick to my boys!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

pamela Renfrew said:


> Having my first ever bitch... I am certainly learning a lot...
> Just presumed it would be similar to males !


the hormones in neutered-Ms fall precipitously, too, pam - 
it is the *learned component* of M-based testosterone-mediated behaviors that will persist 
for awhile after the M is desexed - the immediate "not learned" stuff evaporates the fastest, 
like leg-lifting which tends to arise around 5 to 7-MO... approx 90% of M-dogs who urinate 
indoors + mark excessively, STOP after being neutered within days to weeks.

testosterone actually bottoms-out in about 72-hours to the maintenance level produced 
by the adrenal gland [women have androgens, just as men have estrogens - the difference is 
How Much of each, with men/males having more androgens : estrogens, and women/Fs having 
more estrogens : androgens; ovariohysterectomy AKA spay eliminates most of the estrogens, 
and now the androgens are more prominent. 


pamela Renfrew said:


> I have just purchased "The Book of the Bitch"...
> so I shall start to find time each day to read a little as I dont usually read much...


i read everything, :lol: it's an addiction. 
if U only have ONE dog and she happens to be F, there really are not many differences - 
most dog-savvy folks describe the broad difference between M + F as pets being that Ms want 
to be allowed to love You - while Fs allow You to love => them, and return the affection in kind.

if no other F-dogs live in the house, the turfiness of bitches will be immaterial - 
there's no-one to argue with, 

there is ONE consideration, 
guarding breeds who happen to be F are more inclined to be turfy with human-strangers 
than the average well-socialized M dog of a similar breed, but INTACT-males are still *more likely to bite* 
than are Fs, whether spayed or intact.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sweetie said:


> I shall definitely be looking for someone local to get some advice.
> 
> Thank you.


I honestly think its the best thing. At the moment everyones stressed out you the dogs everyone and as you have kids too its frightening and dangerous for them as you said. Terrys told you all the qualifications a behaviourist should have. Make sure that you get an approved one who knows what they are doing. If any doubt check on here before you book them. Good luck and let us know how your doing.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Good luck and let us know how your doing.


 *definitely :thumbsup: we all want this to work out happily, 
please let us know how it goes, who U find to help, and so on. 
a happy update is always the best news! *


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## sherbert dip (Oct 14, 2010)

I had the same problem with 2 jack russel bitches. Definately get a behaviourist to help you but be very selective! I contacted lots that said "yes no problem £200.00 I can sort it right out for you" Only one, recommended by my vet talked real sense. I had a major turf was on my hands! Unfortunately it was too far gone for us and the younger one now lives very happily with my friend. Now they don't live together they get on great (although never left alone together). With the right help I'm sure you can nip this in the bud!

Good Luck!!! :thumbup:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Never had a bitch, never wanted one because of all the seasons and things, and this thread is not encouraging me to change my mind. I will stick to my boys!


Ha ha, I agree with you. 

At least when Flynn and Marts had a fight recently it was over popcorn  but Kali will pick on any one of the dogs (except her son Flynn) for no reason at all if she feels the need, she's a grumpy old fart at times and has to be watched. Give me boys any time - all dopey and laid back not at all as sprightly as Kali but then she is very clever too.

All spayed/neutered so no hormones to set them off but still Kali can be fiesty!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Ha ha, I agree with you.
> 
> At least when Flynn and Marts had a fight recently it was over popcorn  but Kali will pick on any one of the dogs (except her son Flynn) for no reason at all if she feels the need, she's a grumpy old fart at times and has to be watched. Give me boys any time - all dopey and laid back not at all as sprightly as Kali but then she is very clever too.
> 
> All spayed/neutered so no hormones to set them off but still Kali can be fiesty!


Your pictures of the Mals crack me up every time I see them. Theres the two boys all laid back with their naughty glints and then theres Kali all stunning and beautiful almost saying Im beautiful but Im regal and in charge. They are really great looking dogs.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Your pictures of the Mals crack me up every time I see them. Theres the two boys all laid back with their naughty glints and then theres Kali all stunning and beautiful almost saying Im beautiful but Im regal and in charge. They are really great looking dogs.


She's a beauty alright but she does think she's in charge, even though the boys have 14kgs on her - she doesn't care, lol.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you all for your help last year when this happened between our 2 females. We saw our vet, who to be honest didn't offer much advice. We saw a behaviourist who cost the earth and said she could help. Things did change, and our Border stopped attacking our Shihtzu, we have had no issues for a while. Then today out of the blue they were sitting on the sofa, and our border jumped off the sofa and bit the Shihtzu on the face and was pulling at her fur and growling. She wouldn't let go and our Shihtzu was yelping. It terrified me but I got Holly our Border off her and took her to her crate and put her in. 

I didn't know what to do so I told her off and have left her in there to calm down.

They were sat earlier on the rug chewing a bone each, again not had issues wiht treats for a while, and then she pinched Lolas from her mouth, I told her off and gave it back to Lola. Holly seemed fine, there was no aggression, and then this has happened.

I feel like crying, it is horrible, I hate seeing Lola so scared and I worry what if they never get over this. Things had been great for so long. I am just glad my children are in school and don't have to see it.

Lola is 9 months now, and Holly was 2 last October. Since she turned 2 we have had issues with her like this, so out of character.

I don't know what to do next. Any advice?


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sorry to hear you are still having problems.

Are they both spayed now?

Can you not seek further advice from your behaviourist?


Maybe they might never get on and you will sadly have to rehome one. Hope this doesn't happen but in the interests of all concerned maybe this might be the best but most painful thing to do.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If they are not spayed it could be hormonal. I was reading an article in Dogs Today magazine which said spaying doesn't always help as the hormones when in season are calming but when the season is finished the loss of those hormones can create the opporsite effect and aggression can take hold. On the other hand if you take away the calming hormones by spaying you can still have aggression as there won't be a period when the bitch is calm. It also said that the less dominant bitch should be spayed.

Sorry to hear of your problems but with two bitches you can have issues occasionally just as with two males - in fact in my experience bitches are more likey to scrap. You will have to look for the signs of what triggers these attacks, body language in the dogs, or the attacking one. Only have them together when you or hubby are around and not when the children are in the room alone with them as they could get bitten by mistake and crate one at a time, for your own peace of mind.

Some Mally owners have to have two seperate packs - I do, as Kali is unpredictable with some of my dogs but I can have them together when i'm here as she knows to behave then, and I can see by her face when she's not happy with any of them. Other than that I have a baby gate on the kitchen and she stays out there and in the hall if i'm busy. A scrap between these guys is a right handful, the reason I always have collars on the dogs for easy seperation.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

The vet said as it was the border who was being aggressive towards our shihtzu we should maybe have her spayed but hubby was reluctant as he said he may want to breed from her, just 1 litter in a few years. I personally doubt we will do that so want to have her spayed. 

The vet said she may not be any different after the op and we may need both doing, so I need to talk to hubby as I cannot have this flaring up again.

I really cannot afford the behavourist again, she cost a small fortune, and I am still recovering from christmas and a car that has decided to die on me. Everything at once hey

I just feel like we are back to square one, they were getting on so well until Holly turned on Lola like this. Rehoming just isn't an option, we love them both dearly.

Thank you for your replies.


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## Nina_82 (Sep 26, 2010)

You may want to breed from her??

If it was me I would be more concerned about sorting out the issues between your two dogs, especially with kids in the house.

What if your kids got in the way of a fight one day and one of the dogs bit them?? Then you would probably be looking at rehoming two dogs I guess, when there is already a huge issue with abandoned and unwanted dogs.

I think getting them spayed and seeing if this helps the problem is far more important that breeding to be honest.

Just my opinion.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You want to breed the border terrier? It's not a good idea to breed dogs with temperment issues it can be genetic to some degree and terriers can be bad enough with other dogs at the best of times. I would have them both spayed and forget about breeding


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't think you should be even considering breeding from the BT as she has issues and what experience do you have of breeding etc...?

Personally if you want to keep the dogs you should have them both spayed as this may help and it's also best for their long term health concerning mammary tumours etc....


I think I would be having a chat with hubby if I were you :thumbup:


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

As I said, it was my husband who said ONE day he may want to breed from Holly, and that was why he was reluctant to have her spayed, I on the other hand do not want to breed.



Nina_82 said:


> You may want to breed from her??
> 
> If it was me I would be more concerned about sorting out the issues between your two dogs, especially with kids in the house.
> 
> ...


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

I do NOT want to breed from Holly, I just said my husband was reluctant to have her spayed just yet incase ONE day HE wanted to breed from her. I do not want to go down the route of breeding dogs at all. I have told my husband I want both females spayed asap and shall be booking them in.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sweetie said:


> I do NOT want to breed from Holly, I just said my husband was reluctant to have her spayed just yet incase ONE day HE wanted to breed from her. I do not want to go down the route of breeding dogs at all. I have told my husband I want both females spayed asap and shall be booking them in.


Good for you! It is worth trying, at the very least, and probably better for the dogs in the long run, health wise.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sweetie said:


> The vet said as it was the border who was being aggressive towards our shihtzu we should maybe have her spayed but hubby was reluctant as he said he may want to breed from her, just 1 litter in a few years. I personally doubt we will do that so want to have her spayed.
> 
> The vet said she may not be any different after the op and we may need both doing, so I need to talk to hubby as I cannot have this flaring up again.
> 
> ...


I would really reccomend you get them spayed, obviously its not a 100% guarantee, but as I think I may have posted before. I had a pup come, fine with the older spayed girl until she had a season then the older started on the younger. Then the younger retaliated. Season finished took the heat out the situation and I had her spayed. So now they are both spayed. The Old girl at nearly 13 is getting food driven (Can happen in old age) So I have to watch she doesnt go for any of the youngers chews or food just in case but they have been fine since. Is there any chance one can be coming into season. That might have or not helped to have set things off again. Also when they have been ok for quite awhile it is easy to get complacent and think problem solved and let your guard down. Once bitches have fought it still requires management and you still have to think ahead to make sure they are not in any situations that could make them kick off again.

Its possible with managment they can co-exist, well as you said after the behaviourist they have been doing it, but if they both remain entire you can be upping the stakes for it to kick off again. That and a lapse in managing them in general. As for breeding, if one had pups thats also likely to make them volatile,if there is a fine balance now for them to co-exist a female nursing and protecting pups is I would have thought, not going to want a female she has history with around them. I really think best thing would to spay both asap and have a chat and may be a refresher with the behaviourist.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Explain to your husband that it is NOT a good idea to breed from a dog who possibly has temperament issues. TBH if he doesn't realise this without being told then he isn't experienced or knowledgeable enough to breed dogs anyway.

If he doesn't agree, then take the bitch to be spayed when he's at work or something. 

If you're going to give treats/bones, give them separately. Having high value stuff around is a classic trigger situation for fights.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> You want to breed the border terrier? It's not a good idea to breed dogs with temperment issues it can be genetic to some degree and terriers can be bad enough with other dogs at the best of times. I would have them both spayed and forget about breeding


Agree totally. Also, if the border is already 2 and you want to breed 'in a few years' she'll be getting a bit old. Most people say before the first litter should be before 3yrs old.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

I think that was just what he orignally hope for when we got Holly 2 years ago. Of course we are not dog breeders so no he has no knowledge on the subject, but I guess noone does until they look into it and learn about breeding.

We won't be breeding, we are going to get her spayed, as I said that was just what he hoped for some day so was a tad reluctant to rush into spaying her.



Colliepoodle said:


> Explain to your husband that it is NOT a good idea to breed from a dog who possibly has temperament issues. TBH if he doesn't realise this without being told then he isn't experienced or knowledgeable enough to breed dogs anyway.
> 
> If he doesn't agree, then take the bitch to be spayed when he's at work or something.
> 
> If you're going to give treats/bones, give them separately. Having high value stuff around is a classic trigger situation for fights.


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## Sweetie (Jul 4, 2010)

I think my husband just hoped to some day, I on the other hand have no interest in breeding so we shall be spaying her.



Burrowzig said:


> Agree totally. Also, if the border is already 2 and you want to breed 'in a few years' she'll be getting a bit old. Most people say before the first litter should be before 3yrs old.


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