# Help please! my lovely border collie pup is turning aggressive!



## Ginandtonic

I wonder if anyone can help? I'm at my wits end after today! I have a 4 month old Border Collie who I'm having trouble with- today, after I put her on the lead, she actually bit my thigh so hard that it was actually bleeding - I'm still shocked!

This is my first dog, and I realise now that since we got her we have been far too soft with her and this is the result, we have now got some advice and are attempting to establish a hierarchy within the house as advised by the lady who is doing one to one training with us.

I can cope with all the undesirable things she does such as running off with things, jumping on chairs, stealing food, but I am finding her tantrums so hard. It usually happens when I put her lead on - she pulls the lead, growling really aggressively and has now progressed to jumping up to bite me. Also, when her lead is off she starts racing up to me growling and nipping/biting my ankles (I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't done with such venom!) 

The lady that is doing training with us has got her respect straightaway, I am really perservering, ignoring the dog, feeding her after us etc etc but I am worrying that as she gets into adolescent stage this is going to get worse , and she will be capable of more damage. We realise it is entirely our fault she is like this, but is it too late to reverse?


----------



## Guest

I'm sure at that age it's more in play than in aggression, so many people have the same perceived problem
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/45772-help-nipping-pup.html

If you have a trainer in already, you are on the road to getting things right, but it won't happen over night. You have several weeks of your dog being a brat that you have to address


----------



## BassetLover

I agree with Rona... I doubt she's turning 'aggressive' at only 4 months of age! I expect she hates having the lead put on her and we have found that when we've had pups, before we've started them walking outside on the lead, we have always put a collar and lead on them now and again in the house, sometimes without them even being aware of what we're doing and then when it comes to doing it for real, the dog is used to being led around.

I think you need to show your pup who is the boss and keep persevering because I don't think it's true aggression... it's more like she's not enjoying the collar and lead!


----------



## Ginandtonic

thanks both of you, I would love her to be just in play, but the high pitched growl and ears flat on her had suggest otherwise! Can play be easily misinterpreted as aggression?


----------



## Guest

Yes, if you read a lot of past threads on here, so many people say exactly the same as you when their pups are the same age.
If they all had vicious puppies, nobody would ever buy dogs


----------



## Ginandtonic

thanks, I'll get reading asap!


----------



## Guest

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/85361-angry-puppy.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/83351-puppy-growling.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/79366-lead-going-aggressive-puppy.html

Here you are, just a few from this year.
All slightly different but basically all saying the same


----------



## leashedForLife

> re OP -
> _ 16-WO BC... today, after I put her on the lead, she actually bit my thigh so hard that it was actually bleeding - I'm still shocked!
> *This is my first dog,* and I realise now that since we got her  we have been far too soft with her and this is the result, we have now got some advice and are *attempting to establish a hierarchy within the house *as advised by the lady who is doing one to one training with us. _


hey, tonic! :--) 
how and WHY did U, a novice-dog-owner, get a BC puppy?!  who sold U one?  
and even more important - * How old was the pup on arrival? *

BCs are notoriously mouthy + snappy, and when they have lousy bite inhibition, this is what happens  
i am not indifferent, i realize it was painful + frightening, but now U *know!* why BCs are never recommended as pups 
for novices,  nor are they really suited to pet-homes. 
i am sorry to be so blunt, but U have chosen a tough row to hoe, and the facts are hard + cold. :nonod: 
the level of aerobics demanded by any BC from 12-WO until they are geriatric, is considerable.

is she from show-lines or working lines?

 re Pack Order AKA Hierarchy - 
i would personally *skip* the hierarchy thing, and instead find a BC-savvy POSITIVE * REINFORCEMENT trainer who does not spout pack-ology cr*p at U.  there are already plenty of threads on the Forum explaining the silliness of dumbinance / dominance re dogs, and how outdated + wrong pack-theory was in the 1980s, and is now.

Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily 
i would download BOTH free books - * Before... + After U Get Ur Pup* - and read every WORD on teaching an inhibited bite, 
AKA a soft-mouth. there are also endless training + rearing tips, with simple, safe, effective Non-Aversive teaching. 


> _ I can cope with all the undesirable things she does such as * running off with things, jumping on chairs, stealing food, *_


those are management issues - not training issues. 


> _ ...I am finding her tantrums so hard. It usually happens * when I put her lead on - she pulls the lead, growling really aggressively and has now progressed to jumping up to bite me. * Also,  when her lead is off she (races) up to me growling and (nips/bites) my ankles (I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't * done with such venom!)*_


i think the word VIGOR would substitute well for VENOM...  
she is not out to get U, despite appearances. learning an inhibited bite will help this enormously. 
also the pup wearing a leash as a drag indoors will help - and having U wear the dog, with an umbilical-leash between U, is another excellent in-house practice.

carry a tug-toy, a fetch toy to THROW and get her off U and onto It, or a chewie - At All Times - in a pocket, ready to use. 


> _ The lady that is doing training with us has got her respect straightaway,... _


what did she *use* to get the dogs *respect*? 
choke-collar, slip-lead, jerks on the leash, sharp or loud commands? 
Alpha-rolling, pinning the dog, hard-eyed gaze, tall very-vertical stance? 
very frontal approach, knee in the chest for jumping up to greet? 
*growling* all commands? 
a loud BAH! to interrupt un-wanted behavior, or a Tsst! with a bitey-hand poking her neck? 
a spray-bottle, shake-can or other interruptor? 


> _ I am really perservering, * ignoring the dog, feeding her after us etc etc but I am worrying that as she gets into adolescent stage this is going to get worse , and she will be capable of more damage. * We realise it is entirely our fault she is like this, but is it too late to reverse? _


when she eats in relation to when U eat does not mean diddley.  
she is not like this because U were *too soft on her* -- she is like this BECAUSE she is an under-exercised BC with no mouth manners, and no training, who is the near-equivalent of a 10-YO girl who has had no schooling whatever, :yikes: and grew-up semi-feral, altho being fed by adults. to make it more-identical, her parents are both deaf,  and she has no human-language skills as a result. :laugh:

the worst thing that U have done so far, was to get entirely the wrong breed for a novice PET home. 
but it is what it is, and the pup is what she is... U will have to learn A * LOT, and in a very very short time! 
ages are stages - she is now a pre-adolescent on the verge of puberty. 
U have only TWO * MONTHS until she hits puberty, and the end of her secondary socialization window.

BTW - when did U plan to spay her? 
she can be safely spayed anytime after 16-WO / 4-MO, preferably before 6-MO to avoid her first-estrus. 
she will then have virtually no risk of mammary cancer, and it also eliminates the risk of pyometra + reduces her risk for UTIs (urinary, bladder or kidney infections).

i hope that U are a speed-reader... :smile5: :blush: 
all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## PoisonGirl

leashedforlife i think the start of your post came accross quite rude!!
Plenty of people have a BC as a first dog, as you KNOW from this forum and plenty of people have well behaved ones! It's a bit wrong to start slagging off an owner like that when they asked for advice, they can't go back and un-buy the dog!


Back to the OP.

A for the trainer you are working with, I suggest you get the puppy to a GOOD class, where YOU do the training and the trainer directs you how to do it. It won't work if someone takes the lead and ask your dog to do something, YOU need to teach the dog, the only way it will work 

Have a look at all the nipping threads suggested, they are really good.

When training, choose a method that you want to use, and don't keep chopping an changing as you will just confuse the dog, it won't happen overnight either.

Your dog isn't turning aggressive, she just needs a bit more direction 


How much 'brain work' do you do with her?
BC's are a Very smart breed, and a simple play or walk in the park just isn't enough. Doing some training with her when she is in a calm mood, or getting her to search for things- like scattering dry food on your garden, or hiding her toys is going to get her brain going and tire her out more.


Oh, and don't worry, you're certainly not the first this is happening to and i can assure you, you won't be the last  xx


----------



## CarolineH

Ginandtonic said:


> This is my first dog, and I realise now that since we got her we have been far too soft with her and this is the result, we have now got some advice and are attempting to establish a hierarchy within the house as advised by the lady who is doing one to one training with us.


Your 'first dog' and you bought a Border Collie?  Ohhh dear. Ok so now you have her, you are going to have to make some adjustments to how you view dog ownership as you have invested in the Ferrarri of all dog breeds!  She will need direction in life via early, consistent training. Want a dog to pamper and spoil? You got the wrong breed! They need 'work' to do and if they do not get it, many of them think up their own agenda!

I have had two working bred Border Collies, my present one being 19 months old. I bought them both because I wanted a dog to do things with, not simply as fireside pets. They don't just need a lot of physical exercise but a lot of mental exercise too. Local Dog Trainers - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK has a list of trainers - there should be one within reach for you. Consider too doing agility, obedience or working trials in the future, unless you can think up other ways to keep her motivated and on track. 

With regards to the mouthing, I am afraid that is normal, especially for a collie. Biting your thigh is rather typical of an unruly Border Collie who possess an very natural and strong herding instinct. Through training you will discover how to redirect her enthusiasm into something less painful but do not delay - start looking for a class to attend today. Punishing the behaviour without tacking the root cause (redirected herding behaviour) is counter-productive and will make her worse. The same goes for the other behaviours that she is exhibiting.

Forget the 'dominance' stuff. A good collie should work alongside you, as your partner, buddy, friend. She isn't misbehaving because she is trying to be 'dominant'! She is simply responding to all those age old working instincts jumping around inside her immature frame and having lacked any proper leadership and direction, she is simply behaving normally for a spoiled BC pup.

Collies are brilliant, intelligent and are the best friend you could ever have. But an average pet dog they are not as many who do not research the breed before they get one find out.

This is a great book if you really want to understand what makes a Border Collie 'tick'.  Understanding Border Collies: Amazon.co.uk: Barbara Sykes: Books


----------



## leashedForLife

> Plenty of people have a BC as a first dog, * as you KNOW from this forum * and plenty of people have well behaved ones! It's a bit wrong to start slagging off an owner like that when they asked for advice...


no, i do not know of *anyone* who has a BC as a first-dog - surprise!  
if there are first-time dog-owners on the Forum with a well-trained BC, thats entirely news to me.

i am also certainly not alone in saying that BCs are not for novice owners. nor am i alone is saying they do not suit pet-homes - **unless** they intend to have'/already have a dog-hobby - agility, disc-dog, freestyle, herding competitions, bike-joring, etc - in which the dog can star.



> ...they can't go back and un-buy the dog!


i did not suggest that the owner should somehow change the past, and whisk the dog out of their present home by altering the time-line...  i also gave several highly trustworthy resources, and said that time is short - puberty is around the corner.

and FYI, i still want to know what #[email protected]! sold a BC-pup to a novice-owner as a pet - 
AND whether the pup is of working or show lines.  
cheers, 
--- terry


----------



## Franklin

Hi Ginandtonic

My pup was exactly the same at 3/4 months of age. He's now nearing 10 months old, soft as anything and has a very soft mouth - he carries eggs and tomatoes without a dent in them. 

I really empathise though, he's my first pup and I found the mouthing/nipping quite a trying stage - he would hang off the bottom of my jeans on walks or try and hang off my sleeves, sometimes making a horrible grumbling noise - in all honesty I was a bit scared at times! My hands and clothes were torn to shreds from him constantly biting and nipping them, but he's completely fine now. I was expecting this stage from reading books before I got him but it was still a bit of a shock! I thought I had got an aggressive puppy. 

But he isn't at all and if you keep up the training and follow the advice previous posters/forum members have given your pup should be the same!


----------



## Franklin

I forgot to say, changing my pups food really helped. I put him onto one without any additives/ artificial type ingredients. But anyway see what the other posters recommend; I don't want to give too much advice as I haven't had a dog for long, but this is what helped with mine.


----------



## PoisonGirl

If you look at my wording I was stating that plenty of people come on here and have bought or are getting a bc for a first dog.
And I have also seen replies to the threads about BC's saying things like ''I have a BC for my 1st dog and she isn't destructive'' on more than one occasion

OP there is plenty of good advice for you to start digesting


----------



## Ginandtonic

Wow, leashedforlife, you make it sound like it is illegal to buy or sell a BC! Are you the dog police?!! Of course, owning a BC as a first dog is a matter of opinion and, for your reference she came from a home where the dogs were kept as pets only and have no working lines within them. She was 8 weeks old when we brought her home.

We chose her specifically for her breed characteristics and researched the breed well, we wanted a very active dog as we love walking and my OH loves running and doing marathons (god knows why! ) so we plan to exercise her extensively once she's older, I am with her most of the time so she hardly ever gets left on her own. We also have friends who have BC's who are both amazing dogs, which is what prompted us to have one. Although I see where you are coming from on this as there are a lot of BC's in rescue, I don't agree they shouldn't be kept solely as pets, aren't all dogs bred for working (apart from King Charles Spaniels) in one form or another? Anyway, I'm getting into a debate now and that's not why I started a thread - I just wanted some advice really.

Thanks for the advice on dominance, the lady that is helping us does exactly what you have described, you know I've read that much conflicting info on training dogs that i'm completely bamboozled!! hmy: I'm going to read into the other posts you mentioned on this subject although now this type of training has started it would be confusing for the poor dog for it to stop.


----------



## k8t

Hi

Don't worry Yet!! You can turn this around and you have had some good advice as how to start.

I got a BC for my first dog too - in 1985, I didn't know which breed to get a Westie or BC!!!! (couldn't be more different). I got her from a farm - out of the local newspaper - all I knew was that I wanted a bitch. I had never had dogs as a child and knew very little. However, I was obsessed with dogs and spent the first years of my life being a dog and then had imaginary dogs!

Anyway, I digress. First thing is make sure you have good routines in the home, that you have clear boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't. Show your dog what you want by rewarding the positive and good stuff (wear clothes you can put treats in the pockets). Ignore the bad. 

Make sure you have a good exercise regime - at least three times a day, for at least 30 minutes each time. Play games that use your dogs brain, you have a working dog and it needs to use its brain, if they don't, they will find an outlet for that intelligence in other ways. Games to play are hide the sock - make it easy to start. Buy a puzzle cube. Teach a controlled retireve. i.e. sit wait, throw toy, bring back. If she gets giddy and on the furniture etc., don't grab or shout. Leave a light lead on in the house - only when you are there - and use this to get her off, or if she is jumping up uncontrollably, step on it and wait until she is calm. Call her to you and ask her to sit.

Get a good sit and wait, use treats and get a good book on how to teach this. Ensure your dog sits and waits before doing most things, especially things she likes, so you have an element of control when you are puttling the lead on etc. etc. 

Unfortuantely collies will grab and nip, they don't care what, trousers, ankles leads. If she does this keep still and turn away and be silent - collies love movement, it winds them up. If she persists, walk away and stand with your back to her, arms folded, so she can't grab them.

Get to a club, see APDT site and go to someone who is affilliated. 

It does get easier as they mature. Try and think calm, slow methodical. Collies feed of energetic people and rushing around.

It may be worth looking at what you are feeding her too, maybe she needs something with a little less protein and addititives, but if you do change, do it gradually over several days.

You first dog is so special, you will learn so much - yes you will make mistakes, but dogs are very forgiving.

Three years after getting my dog, I became a dog warden, several years after that, I managed a large rescue centre and then went on to work as a dog trainer for 10 years. I wonder if I would have done that if I had got the Westie???!!

Stick with and read everything you can. The Barbara Sykes book is a good one, so is Perfect Puppy and anything by Barry Eaton.

Kate

P.S Leashed - my first dog, a border collie, dog was working Competition obedience and excellent at agility. In my job as dog warden she would come into schools and help show the children how dogs could learn. She wasn't an easy dog - I know that now, but she was certainly very well behaved!


----------



## PoisonGirl

Ginandtonic said:


> Thanks for the advice on dominance, the lady that is helping us does exactly what you have described, you know I've read that much conflicting info on training dogs that i'm completely bamboozled!! hmy: I'm going to read into the other posts you mentioned on this subject although now this type of training has started it would be confusing for the poor dog for it to stop.


No it wouldn't be confusing for your pup, as long as you cut out the ''dominance'' training ideas completely and don't go back to it.

Positive training is the way to go, much nicer for you and puppy 
Ignore the bad, reward the good. 
Have a good read and sleep on it


----------



## CarolineH

Ginandtonic said:


> Thanks for the advice on dominance, the lady that is helping us does exactly what you have described, you know I've read that much conflicting info on training dogs that i'm completely bamboozled!! hmy: I'm going to read into the other posts you mentioned on this subject although now this type of training has started it would be confusing for the poor dog for it to stop.


It won't confuse your pup at all. She won't even notice apart from that the newer non-dominance based training will be a lot more fun for you both.


----------



## k8t

Hey

Your dog won't be confused, just a bit happier!!

If you other half is into running have a look at Cani x. A new sport, that looks great fun if you are fit.

CaniX UK: cani-cross, running with dogs

Obviously she is much too young at the moment, but something to think about for the future.

Kate


----------



## leashedForLife

> Wow, leashedforlife, you make it sound like it is illegal to buy or sell a BC! Are you the dog police?!! Of course, owning a BC as a first dog is a matter of opinion...


hey, tonic! :--)

no, ma;am, not the dog-police - a trainer... and it is perfectly legal (altho i kinda wish it were not... )

i just see this so often i have become very jaded; Aussies make if-possible even Worse! first-dogs, and i encounter that here in the USA, too. BCs bite ppl, especially when they are moving; Aussies bite ppl who are moving, ppl who are NOT moving to *make* them move, and other dogs... moving or not.  yipe! 


> she came from a home where the dogs were kept as pets only and have no working lines within them. She was 8 weeks old when we brought her home.


thank U for the added info, and i am VERY glad that U are both active ppl! :thumbup: 
thats a bright spot!  many BCs here are bought for their looks or brains, and the owners idea of balanced-exercise 
is lifting their beer during the football-game on TV with one hand, and eating with the other... hmy:

jogging, bike-jogging, and marathons are ducky for BCs. 
i hope the DogStar puppy-books get the bite intensity down quickly... 
happy reading, and all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## Fyfer

I wonder how much food does make a difference. I'm being careful with my 5 mo border collie cross to avoid artificial additives, and have him on Burns. He's a very calm dog for what he is. You might try cutting out ALL food with additives and see if that makes a difference.

You can be firm with him, too. My boy still sometimes nips when taking treats or in play. When he does that, I immediately stop, say 'no bites' and completely ignore him for 5-15 minutes. (It's sometimes difficult because _I'm_ enjoying what we're doing, too!) He's getting much better with time and consistency.

Also, do try clicker training. I've just started a few days ago and am amazed by his responsiveness to it. Tonight he learned to pick up a cardboard box and give it to me, in about 5 minutes. Amazing. And his tail was wagging at the end of it.

Definitely look for an APDT trainer, and if you can't find one, get the Clicker Training for Dogs book, a clicker, and start on your own. Some videos on YouTube show you how, too.


----------



## Burrowzig

I agree, food can make a huge difference. My Welsh collie pup was on Burns, and was so calm I wondered sometimes if the was all there in the head! She learns so quickly though, I know she must be. She hasn't nipped me once, and is generally calm and attentive. She watches my other dog, then imitates really well.
Actually I feel a bit cheated of the full puppy experience!


----------



## leashedForLife

> re k8t -
> _ Three years after getting my (1st) dog (a BC), I became a dog warden, several years after that, I managed a large rescue centre and then... work(ed) as a dog trainer for 10 years. I wonder if I would have done that if I had got the Westie???!! _


hey, kate! :--)

i think U coulda done it if U had gotten a Bassett or a Bloodhound as Ur 1st-dog, :lol: 
but lets face it, U were (and are) dog-obssessed.  its a familiar complaint. 


> _ my first dog... (a BC) was working Competition obedience and excellent at agility. In my job as dog warden she would come into schools and help show the children how dogs could learn. She wasn't an easy dog - I know that now, but she was certainly very well behaved! _


congratulations! and well done, too. :thumbup:

my first-dog arrived in our farm-drive, tossed with his sister from a neighbors van - 
his / her 12 siblings ended up all over the township.  the dam was a Keeshound, the sire a visiting-friends GSD.

the owner of the dam was a multi-millionaire, had he not been so damned lazy he could have afforded to 
KEEP every pup till they died of old-age, and not missed the $$. 
But... i would not have had my dog, so there was a good thing, too. 
and yes, he too was very well-behaved.  also very versatile - as he was a farm-dog. 
all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## CarolineH

Clicker training and Border Collies go together like carrots and peas.  Karen Pryor Clickertraining


----------



## leashedForLife

> re burrowZig -
> _Actually I feel a bit cheated of the full puppy experience! _


maybe *tonic* will let U baby-sit, :lol: while she is still in the puncture-everyone stage...  
whaddya say, *tonic? 
a breed-savvy pet-sitter for 2 days a week? :thumbup: while Ur arms recover from bramble-scratches, *zig can get some for herself...  
sounds good to me! a BC needs all the exercise-buddies they can get... 
--- terry


----------



## Ginandtonic

Hi,

Thankyou all so much for the invaluable advice, you've all been really helpful and I've written down all the pointers - ordered Barbara Sykes from Amazon and downloaded one of the two books from the Dogs Daily site (then I ran out of printer ink!) 

Right, so dominance training is out! I have been really worried about that as I didn't like some of the techniques this lady is using and whay you have all said has reinforced my beliefs - besides, I find it impossible to ignore my dog!

I'm already on the right track, she's on Burns food, I'm playing with her to stimulate her mental faculties (hiding toys, making her work for her food etc) and will book her in for agility etc when she gets older. The only time she is difficult is when she's out and about on walks, which is the part I need to devote much training to as she hates the lead (she's got it on at the mo around the house with no probs).

The only other sticking point is how far to walk her - I could walk her for a few miles as I'm lucky to have the time to do this BUT I don;t want to walk her too far at a young age, I've read the guide of 5 mins per month of her age - she is much more settled and relaxed after a long walk but I don;t want to overdo it - any ideas everyone??

thanks :smile5:


----------



## Bobbie

I walked my rough a bit more than the 5 min rule as collies seem to be able to take it. I use to go out several small walks a day to get him use to cars lorries people other dogs. I am glad you have put your dog onto Burns as you should find he will be less hyper. As for training I use tit bits ( food burns ) and lots of hand signals so the dog starts to concentrate on you. Once your BC has learnt how much fun this learning is you will be well away


----------



## leashedForLife

> downloaded one of the two books from the Dogs Daily site (then I ran out of printer ink!)


U can just download the pdf-forms of both, and read them as PDFs, too - :thumbsup: 
the hard-copy is nice for carrying around, but U can pick n choose what U want to print. 
(or when U want to print it... i think the soft-mouth/bite inhibition is probably the most urgent part, but that is a guess!)

happy training, 
--- terry


----------



## Colliepoodle

Ginandtonic said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thankyou all so much for the invaluable advice, you've all been really helpful and I've written down all the pointers - ordered Barbara Sykes from Amazon and downloaded one of the two books from the Dogs Daily site (then I ran out of printer ink!)
> 
> Right, so dominance training is out! I have been really worried about that as I didn't like some of the techniques this lady is using and whay you have all said has reinforced my beliefs - besides, I find it impossible to ignore my dog!
> 
> I'm already on the right track, she's on Burns food, I'm playing with her to stimulate her mental faculties (hiding toys, making her work for her food etc) and will book her in for agility etc when she gets older. The only time she is difficult is when she's out and about on walks, which is the part I need to devote much training to as she hates the lead (she's got it on at the mo around the house with no probs).
> 
> The only other sticking point is how far to walk her - I could walk her for a few miles as I'm lucky to have the time to do this BUT I don;t want to walk her too far at a young age, I've read the guide of 5 mins per month of her age - she is much more settled and relaxed after a long walk but I don;t want to overdo it - any ideas everyone??
> 
> thanks :smile5:


Well done! Sounds like you're well on your way 

Has anyone suggested "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson yet? Should be made compulsory for all dog owners to read, IMO!


----------



## MerlinsMum

Colliepoodle said:


> Has anyone suggested "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson yet? Should be made compulsory for all dog owners to read, IMO!


I'll second that - it totally changed my way of thinking about dogs when I read it. Sorry, I'm not doing much to keep you away from Amazon, am I? :devil:
But it's one purchase you won't regret.


----------



## Stephny691

Hiya, we got our BC from a farm, her family were all working dogs and she had been chained up in a barn for the first 4 months of her life. Probably not the dog we should have got, but once those eyes looked at us we couldn't leave her there. Two months after we got her she started having fits, turns out she's full blown epileptic! 
If you'll forgive the sob story =] my point was meant to be that we had a b!tch of a time with her when she was younger, training was a nightmare, walking her on a lead is nigh on impossible and you can forget the car! With all of this being said- she turned 7 the other day and she is the sofest, sweetest most loving dog I've ever known, off lead she is a pure dream to walk with and loves life. BCs can be a right hand full but the payoff once the training kicks in is imeasurable. Perservere it's completely worth it =]
xx


----------



## leashedForLife

hey, tonic! :--) 
any improvement? hoping, with all paws + digits crossed, 
--- terry


----------



## leashedForLife

> ...we got our BC from a farm, her family were all * working dogs* and she had been * chained up in a barn for the first 4 months of her life.*


:yikes: oh, that is dreadful... :nonod: 
i am glad that U gave her a better life, but my WORD that must have been hard work. 
what a disastrous beginning, and thankfully a happy ending! good on ya, :thumbup: 
--- terry


----------



## MerlinsMum

Stephny691 said:


> Hiya, we got our BC from a farm, her family were all working dogs and she had been chained up in a barn for the first 4 months of her life. Probably not the dog we should have got, but once those eyes looked at us we couldn't leave her there. Two months after we got her she started having fits, turns out she's full blown epileptic!


I am so sorry to hear that - unfortunately epilepsy runs in many lines of Working sheepdogs/ aka farm collies, and in the registered Border collies too. It usually shows itself before 4-5 years of age.

A very nice lady I used to train with at my dog club a few years ago, had a rescued B collie from the local shelter. She worked sooooo hard with this boy over a period of several years obedience training him, and they developed an amazing bond.... finally qualifying for Crufts at top level.

A few weeks before Crufts, he had a serious Epileptic fit at the age of 4. Thus ended his career and all her hopes and hard work, in the space of just a few hours during his Grand Mal seizure.

Sadly there is no test for epilepsy but it is as well to be aware of the breeds it occurs in the most... and if buying a registered BCollie, there are various registers of where epilepsy has occurred in lines. _Do Your Research!_

Same goes for Belgian Shepherds as well (and many other breeds that are prone to it). All of those on the online epilepsy register had their first fit before 4 years of age, most by age 3. Breeders are doing all they can to avoid known lines, but without a test, that's all they can do for now.

My boy turns 4 in a few weeks, and thankfully I have been able to find out (today! actually) that none of the ancestors on his Belgian Shepherd side had epilepsy. That's a relief: but of course I know nothing about his farm-collie mother. But touch wood I think he will be ok.


----------



## Stephny691

Well, touching wood the epilepsy seems to be controlled to fits every 4ish or so months. Which, when it used to be every 4 weeks is an amazing thing! She's on lots of tablets so we have to keep an eye on her liver and levels but at the moment she's ok and just really enjoys life.
I'm not kidding about being chained up in a barn. We didn't go to see her originally, we went to see the other litter of pups which were only 8 weeks old I think. But we ended up in the barn and she was just lying there on her own on a proper chain, not a doggy chain, an -actual- chain attached to a breeze block. And she was so happy to see people that it wasn't even a question. We had to get her out of that place. Buuuuuut we have a happy doggy now, so it was worth all the trouble for the first 2-3years. We wouldn't trade her in for the world! =]


----------



## hutch6

leashedForLife said:


> hey, tonic! :--)
> how and WHY did U, a novice-dog-owner, get a BC puppy?!  who sold U one?
> and even more important - * How old was the pup on arrival? *
> 
> BCs are notoriously mouthy + snappy, and when they have lousy bite inhibition, this is what happens
> i am not indifferent, i realize it was painful + frightening, but now U *know!* why BCs are never recommended as pups
> for novices,  nor are they really suited to pet-homes.
> i am sorry to be so blunt, but U have chosen a tough row to hoe, and the facts are hard + cold. :nonod:
> the level of aerobics demanded by any BC from 12-WO until they are geriatric, is considerable.
> 
> is she from show-lines or working lines?
> 
> re Pack Order AKA Hierarchy -
> i would personally *skip* the hierarchy thing, and instead find a BC-savvy POSITIVE * REINFORCEMENT trainer who does not spout pack-ology cr*p at U.  there are already plenty of threads on the Forum explaining the silliness of dumbinance / dominance re dogs, and how outdated + wrong pack-theory was in the 1980s, and is now.
> 
> Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily
> i would download BOTH free books - * Before... + After U Get Ur Pup* - and read every WORD on teaching an inhibited bite,
> AKA a soft-mouth. there are also endless training + rearing tips, with simple, safe, effective Non-Aversive teaching.
> 
> those are management issues - not training issues.
> 
> i think the word VIGOR would substitute well for VENOM...
> she is not out to get U, despite appearances. learning an inhibited bite will help this enormously.
> also the pup wearing a leash as a drag indoors will help - and having U wear the dog, with an umbilical-leash between U, is another excellent in-house practice.
> 
> carry a tug-toy, a fetch toy to THROW and get her off U and onto It, or a chewie - At All Times - in a pocket, ready to use.
> 
> what did she *use* to get the dogs *respect*?
> choke-collar, slip-lead, jerks on the leash, sharp or loud commands?
> Alpha-rolling, pinning the dog, hard-eyed gaze, tall very-vertical stance?
> very frontal approach, knee in the chest for jumping up to greet?
> *growling* all commands?
> a loud BAH! to interrupt un-wanted behavior, or a Tsst! with a bitey-hand poking her neck?
> a spray-bottle, shake-can or other interruptor?
> 
> when she eats in relation to when U eat does not mean diddley.
> she is not like this because U were *too soft on her* -- she is like this BECAUSE she is an under-exercised BC with no mouth manners, and no training, who is the near-equivalent of a 10-YO girl who has had no schooling whatever, :yikes: and grew-up semi-feral, altho being fed by adults. to make it more-identical, her parents are both deaf,  and she has no human-language skills as a result. :laugh:
> 
> the worst thing that U have done so far, was to get entirely the wrong breed for a novice PET home.
> but it is what it is, and the pup is what she is... U will have to learn A * LOT, and in a very very short time!
> ages are stages - she is now a pre-adolescent on the verge of puberty.
> U have only TWO * MONTHS until she hits puberty, and the end of her secondary socialization window.
> 
> BTW - when did U plan to spay her?
> she can be safely spayed anytime after 16-WO / 4-MO, preferably before 6-MO to avoid her first-estrus.
> she will then have virtually no risk of mammary cancer, and it also eliminates the risk of pyometra + reduces her risk for UTIs (urinary, bladder or kidney infections).
> 
> i hope that U are a speed-reader... :smile5: :blush:
> all my best,
> --- terry





CarolineH said:


> Your 'first dog' and you bought a Border Collie?  Ohhh dear. Ok so now you have her, you are going to have to make some adjustments to how you view dog ownership as you have invested in the Ferrarri of all dog breeds!  She will need direction in life via early, consistent training. Want a dog to pamper and spoil? You got the wrong breed! They need 'work' to do and if they do not get it, many of them think up their own agenda!
> 
> I have had two working bred Border Collies, my present one being 19 months old. I bought them both because I wanted a dog to do things with, not simply as fireside pets. They don't just need a lot of physical exercise but a lot of mental exercise too. Local Dog Trainers - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK has a list of trainers - there should be one within reach for you. Consider too doing agility, obedience or working trials in the future, unless you can think up other ways to keep her motivated and on track.
> 
> With regards to the mouthing, I am afraid that is normal, especially for a collie. Biting your thigh is rather typical of an unruly Border Collie who possess an very natural and strong herding instinct. Through training you will discover how to redirect her enthusiasm into something less painful but do not delay - start looking for a class to attend today. Punishing the behaviour without tacking the root cause (redirected herding behaviour) is counter-productive and will make her worse. The same goes for the other behaviours that she is exhibiting.
> 
> Forget the 'dominance' stuff. A good collie should work alongside you, as your partner, buddy, friend. She isn't misbehaving because she is trying to be 'dominant'! She is simply responding to all those age old working instincts jumping around inside her immature frame and having lacked any proper leadership and direction, she is simply behaving normally for a spoiled BC pup.
> 
> Collies are brilliant, intelligent and are the best friend you could ever have. But an average pet dog they are not as many who do not research the breed before they get one find out.
> 
> This is a great book if you really want to understand what makes a Border Collie 'tick'.  Understanding Border Collies: Amazon.co.uk: Barbara Sykes: Books





leashedForLife said:


> no, i do not know of *anyone* who has a BC as a first-dog - surprise!
> if there are first-time dog-owners on the Forum with a well-trained BC, thats entirely news to me.
> 
> i am also certainly not alone in saying that BCs are not for novice owners. nor am i alone is saying they do not suit pet-homes - **unless** they intend to have'/already have a dog-hobby - agility, disc-dog, freestyle, herding competitions, bike-joring, etc - in which the dog can star.
> 
> i did not suggest that the owner should somehow change the past, and whisk the dog out of their present home by altering the time-line...  i also gave several highly trustworthy resources, and said that time is short - puberty is around the corner.
> 
> and FYI, i still want to know what #[email protected]! sold a BC-pup to a novice-owner as a pet -
> AND whether the pup is of working or show lines.
> cheers,
> --- terry


Hi.

First time dog owner - 2 border collies - 1st dog is from pure working line, very high energy and collected at 14wks old (2yrs old now) - 2nd dog was a rescue at 9months old having been bought from a petshop and then rehomed. Puppy farm line and par for the course energy levels(now 15months).

Barbara Sykes lives about 1mile away from me and spoken to her a few times with regards to dogs, the Freedom of Spirit Trust and taking on a rescue form her.

Can you please explain your ridiculous statements that a Border Collie is by no means the right choice for a first time dog owner? What would be the right breed of dog for a first time dog owner and why?

Many thanks.


----------



## LouJ69

Ok, what it sounds like to me is that your pup is going through what is known as the Seniority Classification Period. It usually happens wit pups around the 3-4 month stage. The pup is simply testing the boundaries with you. When pups are in the litter, their littermates tell them when they're biting too hard etc. You just need to let the pup know that you will not accept the biting behaviour. I'm not talking about punishment, just redirection. Find something that the pup is allowed to bite & try to redirect their attention to the object instead of you! Once the pup realises that biting is not allowed, it should stop. If your trainer is telling you about dominance, I would change trainers. Find a trainer who is registered with the ADPT, as they use positive methods only. I hope everything goes ok for you. Keep us posted.x


----------



## leashedForLife

hutch6 said:


> Can you please explain your ridiculous statements that a Border Collie is by no means the right choice for a first time dog owner?
> What would be the right breed of dog for a first time dog owner and why?


hey, hutch! :--) i am not alone 

Iams Dog Breed Guide - Border Collie Dogs 


> EXCERPT -
> _ Notes:
> To be truly happy, *a Border Collie needs a lot of ongoing attention, extensive daily exercise, and a job to do. Can become destructive if bored or ignored.* The Border Collie can become neurotic if left alone for long periods, leading to many behavior problems. Known as an escape artist. Because of his strong herding instincts, the Border Collie may be snappish with children and strangers. * Best with an experienced owner * with lots of time to spend with the dog. Prospective owners who are looking for a pet should consider other similar, but calmer breeds  ...[snip]... Also may be prone to epilepsy and deafness. ...[snip]...
> 
> Personality:
> * Very smart, alert, and responsive, with concentrated intensity * when working. Excels at obedience, agility and Frisbee(TM). * Sensitive * and trainable. Loves praise. *Highly energetic, with great stamina. May be reserved with strangers. The adolescent Border Collie often goes through a phase where (s)he challenges... authority. Many are highly reactive and sound sensitive, making them a poor choice for families with young children. The Border Collie should be very well socialized as a puppy to prevent shyness. Dominance level is highly variable  in Border Collies.
> 
> Behavior:
> Children: Best with older, considerate children.
> Friendliness: Moderately protective.
> Trainability: Very easy to train.
> Independence: Moderately dependent on people.
> Dominance: High.
> Other Pets: May be aggressive with dogs of the same sex;
> do not trust with non-canine pets.
> Combativeness: Tends to be fairly dog-aggressive.
> Noise: Likes to bark.
> 
> Exercise: Vigorous daily exercise needed.
> Jogging: An excellent jogging companion.
> Indoors: Very active indoors.
> Apartments: Not recommended for apartments.
> Outdoor Space: Best with acreage.
> Climate: Does well in most climates.
> Owner: Not recommended for novice owners.
> Longevity: Moderately long lived (12 to 15 years).
> 
> Talents:
> Herding, police work, narcotics detection, search & rescue, agility, competitive obedience,  and performing tricks. *_


*

i can duplicate virtually all those statements, practically word-for-word, in books, blogs, web-postings, advice columns in the newspaper, dog-mags, and in conversations with other trainers... let alone on trainers lists, where it is simply accepted fact.

McNair, McConnell (tricia) and other trainers who work extensively with BCs will chorus the same tune. Singing: McConnell jokes that she bought her BCs a toy: a farm in Wisconsin, with sheep. :laugh:

this is WHY i thought the Texas breeder  who shipped her neurotic bounced-back obedience-failure pup, now an adult, 
to  * jon katz!! *  a pretty-poor-at-it PET-owner of pet-lines Flabradors,  was a  total eejit  -- Orson may have made *katz* a household name, but he was a p*ss-poor choice to rehabilitate a semi-psychotic fruitcake of a BC, who was an accomplished escape-artist, hard to control, and prone to BITE- hard, as well as terrified + traumatized by former abuse.

*katz* learned a whole lot after the dog was dumped in his lap... a good deal of it at the co$t of the dog. he did his very best, and went well-beyond what any sane person could have ASKed of him - but IMO that seriously screwed-up BC no more belonged in a New-Jersey suburban small-lot home, with 2 dog-novices, than a Brahma bull would have belonged in their back-yard.

i stand by my ridiculous statement 

as far as first-dogs, something NOT manically active - 
so skip Terrierists, Dals, BCs, Aussies, ACDs, and most other herding-breeds. 
avoid dog-aggro or human-aggro/guarding - so not Akita, Rott, Dogo, AmBull, and so on. 
an adult-Rott with a nice disposition and manners is a good potential candidate, but not if the adopters are marshmallows who will not maintain the manners the dog has. Rotts push bounds a bit. 

a soft American-lines Dobe can be a great first-dog, but most Euro-lines are too sharp.

Weims are virtually synonymous with sep-anx, due to their genetic-bottleneck 60 years back.

*most* retrieving breeds are OK as first-dogs, so long as they are not hunting-lines - here in the USA, 
hunting-lines Labs have become as crazy-driven as JRTs for movement  they are just bigger.

most versatile-hunters are too wired for USA-pet-homes, as most do not have access to safe off-leash areas, 
and many will not bother to go to an enclosed park. fewer than 20% of USA men hunt, so even that outlet is rare.

plenty of companion-breeds make good first-dogs: 
Shih Tzu, Pug, Boston (look for dog-aggro in the parents, if U get a pup - they are ex-fighters), etc.

Pitbulls with a sweet + tolerant temp are excellent first-dogs, IF the owner is ready for exercise!!, 
+ will keep them sociable. Boxers are good - adopted as adults, after their pup-craziness diminishes.

ANY purebred or mixed-breed with moderate exercise needs + nice temp is a terrific 1st-dog.

demanding exercise needs, 
very independent + self-willed, 
highly sensitive temps, 
reactive + vocal, 
snappy or mouthy, 
deaf or blind dogs, 
or guarding breeds 
are not for the novice, IMO - and in that of many other trainers.

all my best, 
--- terry*


----------



## hutch6

But there is no "Dog Owners Starter Kit inc dog".

Any dog has the potential to go awry in any owners hand if the owner is not willing to put the time in regardless if it is 1hr a day or 3hrs a day and then actually remember the dog is in the house when you are aroudn instead of ignoring it and leaving it to its own devices. You mention a retriever breed from a non-working line yet the dog from Marley & Me, international best seller (how, I do not know) was a lab from non-working line (Gracie their second one was) and he was a real handful. Then at the end of the book he tells of how people responded to his "World's Worst Dog" column and no end of owners with various breeds wrote in to try and out-do Grogan with how bad their dog was, it almost turned into a boasting contest.

What breed of dog you get bears no real difference to the outcome, what level of committment you have however does. If you have anythign elss than 100% committment to having a dog then don;t get one that woul dbe the only thing I would say. For people to come on here and ask for advice must be pretty intimidating if you read some responses to questions or responses to what people have tried in the past but hasn't worked and then the poster disagrees with the methods tried. No single method works for all dogs. You should know that just as much as everyone else and yes there are methoids that are worse in aspects to others but at least them trying different methods and not giving up but coming on here to see what other methods people use is a positive thing and what this forum is here for. To say thing like "A first time dog owner and a BC is a recipe for disaster" is not only a load of rubbish as I along with others on here have clearly proven is incorrect and just a generalised statement that might even be as outdated as some training methods now but it also does not give the OP any confidence or hop ethat their issue can be resolved. Bettr to say "It will take elbow grease and drive but we can get there" rather than "you've made a grave error and should not have got the dog that appealled to you, that you wanted etc". Just liking the look of the dog if half of being able to train it. No point getting a dog you don't like the look of is there or you just ain't going to enjoy your time together.

So I invite you, McConnell, McGonegal, Dumbledore, whoever round to see that your statements are based on generalisations and are very sweeping to say the least.

I think you have to be very brave to post in here now which is a pitty because despite the ridiculous there is a lot to be gained through educating and spreading the good rather than kicking someone when they are down.


----------



## leashedForLife

> re post #39, hutch -
> _ What breed of dog you get bears no real difference to the outcome... _


hey, hutch! :--) 
i would LOVE to conduct a proper survey of all owners surrendering a dog at the local shelters, and ask *Just 3 Qs*: 
* is this Ur first dog? 
(if yes) * what breed, age + gender? 
* what behavior problems did U find most difficult? 
with a multiple-choice checklist of common behavior-complaints.

_ i will bet that 3 times of 5 i can predict 2/3 of the presenting complaints, given only the dogs / pups age, sex + breed. _ 
i would bet carolineH could do that too - or k8t, or LondonDogwalker, or any number of other experienced trainers here. 
in fact - i will do that on the Forum, good thought! :thumbup: thanks... 


> *"A first time dog owner and a BC is a recipe for disaster" is not only a load of rubbish* as I along with others on here have clearly proven is incorrect and just a generalised statement that might even be as outdated as some training methods now * but it also does not give the OP any confidence or (hope) that their issue can be resolved.* Bettr to say "It will take elbow grease and drive but we can get there" rather than "you've made a grave error and should not have got the dog that appealled to you, that you wanted etc".* Just liking the look of the dog (is) half of being able to train it. * No point getting a dog you don't like the look of is there or you just ain't going to enjoy your time together.
> 
> So I invite you, McConnell, McGonegal, Dumbledore, whoever round to see that your statements are based on generalisations and are very sweeping to say the least.
> 
> I think you have to be very brave to post in here now which is a pitty because despite the ridiculous there is a lot to be gained through educating and spreading the good rather than *kicking someone when they are down.*


i would not say _ "A first time dog owner and a BC is a recipe for disaster"- _ it is a POTENTIAL recipe for disaster, a LIKELY disastrous outcome, a difficult and very steep learning-curve is a fact for anyone, especially if the novice gets a puppy; i also suggest a young-adult for first-time owners,  that should give U something to shriek about! :lol: 
i also suggest a dog who has Lived-With children - and loves them anyway  for parents getting a family-dog for the kids, 
rather than a puppy, especially if the youngest is under-5-YO.
IMO if U have a toddler, even a stay-at-home parent will be hard-pressed to cope with a puppy, and if that parent is a pup-novice, 
the odds become astronomical.

there is nothing *wrong* with stacking the odds for success in favor of the novice; 
a less-demanding, less-intense breed (or older pup or dog) can only make life a bit easier.

why not a geriatric BC? a dog with training, including housetraining + some leash-manners - 
Not! a fixer-upper Pet-Project in need of a major B-Mod overhaul, of course - a nice normal senior-BC, to break in the novice gently? :wink: the support of a good breed-rescue is always an excellent idea for the novice. FOSTERING can be a great way to get into a more-challenging breed at the deep-end, but i understand it is more difficult to get into in the UK than here in the USA.  bummer...

i certainly did NOT intend to * kick (the OP) when they are down, *  and i apologize if it came across that way - but as we all know, e-mail + written forums, even with emoticons, are hard to parse for emotional content. :nonod: 
while objecting to my opinion + my manner  perhaps it would help to note that i also offered immediate-use TIPS, web-resources, and suggested the help of a hands-on, in-person pos-R trainer. it was not all negative or purely opinion. :wink:

all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## Colliepoodle

I'm a bit "yeah but no but" here. On the fence. Can see both sides blah-de-blah.

I think that an owner who intends to DO stuff with their dog, and who researches the breed and its needs, and fully commits themselves, is just as likely to get on with a BC as anyone, regardless of whether they're a first time dog owner or not.

And someone who's had dogs all their lives isn't necessarily a better owner, or trainer. If they've only ever had "easier" dogs, then a BC could well come as a huuuuuuge shock (and I've seen it happen).

But I do think it's a truism that ANY worky-type dog is going to be harder work GENERALLY and therefore inexperienced owners who aren't prepared are probably in for a bumpier ride than the owners of, say, a more "staid" type of dog.

Yes all dogs learn the same way - in fact all living creatures do. But although generally "a dog is a dog is a dog" some breeds DO have drives that, if not directed, can be more problematic.


----------



## hutch6

Colliepoodle said:


> But I do think it's a truism that ANY worky-type dog is going to be harder work GENERALLY and therefore inexperienced owners who aren't prepared are probably in for a bumpier ride than the owners of, say, a more "staid" type of dog.


What dog wasn't bred to carry out a purpose other than to only do something told and at all other times not be seen or heard of? They all need guidance, they all need training, they all want to learn and to fit in and it is up to us to make sure that happens as we are responsible for our dogs.

What is a "staid" type of dog?

Terry?!?!?! I have conducted a little breed thing for your fromt he first 4 pages of threads on this section that were asking for advice. They are as follows:

BC x 2
GSD x 5
Weim x 1
JRT x 3
Husks x 4
Cockers x 3
Parsons x 1
Shih Tzu x 1
Staffie x 2
Known cross breed x 10 with only one mention of BC cross in there.
Lurcher x 1
Catalans x 2
Westie x 1
CKC x 1
Beagle x 2
Ridgeback x 1

So from the first 4 pages you could generalise not to get a GSD, Husk or Cocker. And stay well clear of cross breeds no matter what you do.

But that's a load of tosh anyway as we know.

There is no equation for choosing the right dog first time or there would only be one breed being kept as a pet and from the above you can see that isn't the case. Why are there so many breeds being kept as pets? Because we like the look of them and if we are serious then we read up on what they need and require and then ascertain if that fits with our lifestyle unless of course you do not suffer from guilt. So if we like the look of them and we know a "general" guide to what to expect then we go and get it. Either way you look at it from a breed angle or an owner angle it is all a leap of faith into the void of "I will do the best I possibly can for this dog" and that is what people that come here to ask questions are obviously doing.

With every dog being different then you coul dhave 100+ perfect dogs all your life and then get one of the same breed or a different breed or a cross and have your whole life turned upside down by a nightmaree hound even though you haven't changed anything from what you did with the 100+ perfect you had before.

I know you don't mean to casue offence but I would suggest a rethink of some of your opening statements and generalisations and if other members think and comment along the same line then that applies to them too.


----------



## k8t

Sorry some reason posted twice!!


----------



## k8t

I must say Hutch, I agree with with you.

Whilst a BC may not be the ideal dog for a first time owner, basically due to the high activity levels there is no reason it can't work, as both you and I have found out. I have come across many people with a BC as a first time dog (maybe they are more popular in the UK?) and whilst some may have been problematic, so can any dog in the wrong hands and I think I have probably seen more 'terrier types' given up than anything else!

I think Leashed that you are generalising about owners, some people do look into what breed they want and still go for a BC. I don't think you can assume that anyone who has got a BC as a first dog, hasn't thought it through. Some will have, but this isn't a perfect world. I saw an ad in the paper for my first dog and she was from a farm. I didn't even see her walk across the yard - she was handed to me as the only bitch left!!! 

I, as some of you may have noticed, tend to 'sit on the fence' at times, but in this instance I am climbing down and agree with Hutch that these boards can be intimidating for newbies, who may have little or limited knowledge - the very reason they come here for help. 

I think the problem is that there are some very strong personalities on here, that have very fixed views on how to train - I am not entering in a debate on the rights and wrongs of methods right now - but sometimes any 'other way' is put down and sidelined, without thought.

I spent a while 'lurking' before I posted and sussing out the lie of the land, but honestly don't think that looking at some of the fairly critical and indeed not wholly helpful replies at times I would have gone elsewhere.

Kate (climbing back up onto the fence)


P.S. When I was in rescue the biggest reason for people for handing over a dog, was 'new baby' followed by 'allergies'. Very few came in due to behaviour problems (we would always try and give advice and even visit if there wre problems, as it is easier to keep a dog in a home and work with it than have it in and rehome). 

Dogs that came in for no 'apparent' reason, strays etc., were usually around 8 months - 1 year old, which as we all know is that 'difficult' age - which even the most experienced of us can find challenging.

P.PS Not sure that I would suggest Rotti, however mellow or Pitbull as a first time dog - but I think we have a bit of a divide between our two countries on this! 

(by the way - I am not breedest - we have a Rotti in the family (BIL) and best friend has a pitbull sort of dog!!)


----------



## Colliepoodle

But I don't think LeashedForLife was saying that it cannot EVER work! Of course it can, particularly if the owner - first timer or not - is committed to their dog.


----------



## leashedForLife

> There is no equation for choosing the right dog first time or there would only be one breed being kept as a pet and from the above you can see that isn't the case.


hey, hutch! :--) 
lets look at this from another aspect - 
there are approx 600 breeds around the world; there should be something to appeal to everybody *visually*, but owners 
who do not want to groom should not get a Maltese, ShihTzu or Afghan + insist the dog be in a show-clip, then * not groom. * 
if they WILL * NOT groom, long flowing locks are out - the dog will be put thru the same mizry of yanking tangles + cutting 
mats + standing for hours, every 6 to 8 weeks, by a (very unhappy, probably impatient, busy) groomer.

so yes - breed or mix matters; coat, activity, vocal, stranger-tolerant, etc. 
the package is the least of it; the *contents* are the crucial thing. 
* behavior kills more dogs than trauma or infectious disease in the USA. * 
falling in love with a pretty face is one thing - LIVING with her / him for their lifetime, is quite another.  
choosing a dog is a marriage of sorts; getting it right makes an enormous difference - 
get it wrong? its highly emotional personally, spouses fight, neighbors quarrel, and so on.

with 600 global breeds, it is easier to speak of types, when speaking broadly; U will note that i refer to herding breeds 
+ LGDs as types - along with guarding, former-fighters, and so on. 
all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## katiefranke

For what its worth, i will add my thoughts here too! 

I think that the biggest problem is not the breed selected as a 'first time dog', but whether or not the first time owner has done their research and is committed to what is needed.

If they have not researched the breed and are not really prepared to put in what is needed, then a BC is obviously not the best choice EVER, not just as a first dog! Perhaps they could get away with a smaller 'lap dog' or more laid back breed though.

I have actually known quite a number of owners, both new and experienced, who could not cope with their collie:

- one of my close friends had had animals for many years, but her first collie bit her son - I will not go into it, but from the sound of it, a training & management issue - the dog was sadly pts on advice of doctor and vet before I knew about it
- a man I see all the time where we walk had two BCs (these were not his first dogs but first BCs) - when he had children they started 'nipping and herding' - so they 'got rid of them' - and yet these are clearly BC traits and must be retrained, channeled or managed!
- 2 colleagues from work have BCs, both from pups...in both cases they did not do enough research in my opinion and are pefect examples of first time owners who should NOT have got a BC EVER, not just as their first dog! one almost 'got rid' of her pup after 3 weeks 'of hell' due to biting and now the poor thing has gone to live with her mum. the other is still with them, but practically lives in the back garden as it causes chaos when shut in the house!? 
- a friend of the family has had collies before, but always older rescue dogs probably 6 yrs+ ...but after she lost her last, she got a pup...she just was not prepared for the socialisation/training needs etc...she wishes she didnt get the poor little thing but would never give it up...

anyway, the list goes on...i dont know whether i just know more people with border collies than other breeds or whether they have been the most problematic breed...but you get the idea...from my personal experience, if it is going to go wrong, it generally tends to be on the first encounter with the breed (but not always as in the last case)...but in every case, they were not prepared!

However, in that case it is the person that is not suited to the breed and should never have got a BC in the first place...not whether or not they are first time owners...hope that makes sense!? 

However, having said all that, if asked, my general instinct would still be to say - think very carefully, BCs are a handful for a novice owner...(this would also apply to any similarly high-drive/working type dog).


----------



## hutch6

[


leashedForLife said:


> hey, tonic! :--)
> how and WHY did U, a novice-dog-owner, get a BC puppy?!  who sold U one?
> and even more important - * How old was the pup on arrival? *
> 
> BCs are notoriously mouthy + snappy, and when they have lousy bite inhibition, this is what happens
> i am not indifferent, i realize it was painful + frightening, but now U *know!* why BCs are never recommended as pups
> for novices,  nor are they really suited to pet-homes.
> i am sorry to be so blunt, but U have chosen a tough row to hoe, and the facts are hard + cold. :nonod:
> the level of aerobics demanded by any BC from 12-WO until they are geriatric, is considerable.
> 
> --- terry





CarolineH said:


> Your 'first dog' and you bought a Border Collie?  Ohhh dear.
> I have had two working bred Border Collies, my present one being 19 months old. I bought them both because I wanted a dog to do things with, not simply as fireside pets.[/url]






leashedForLife said:


> no, i do not know of *anyone* who has a BC as a first-dog - surprise!
> if there are first-time dog-owners on the Forum with a well-trained BC, thats entirely news to me.
> 
> and FYI, i still want to know what #[email protected]! sold a BC-pup to a novice-owner as a pet -
> AND whether the pup is of working or show lines.
> cheers,
> --- terry





Colliepoodle said:


> But I don't think LeashedForLife was saying that it cannot EVER work! Of course it can, particularly if the owner - first timer or not - is committed to their dog.


Sorry Colliepoodle, I must have read some completley different posts to you.

What chance are these comments giving it as going to work then? 1/1,000,000? 1/10? 1/1,000?

Imagine you were in the OP's shoes, your new pup had got a bit excited and nipped as most pups do (hence the sticky at the top of this section which is not called "How to deal with BC pup that nips" by the way) and you thought you'd post and ask after viewing some of the advice given for other issues and then you receive these comments.

Personally if I had received these after asking for help for the first time, never having owned a dog before I would feel even worse than I did before I came on here. There is just no need for it when the stats you are basing your comments on are plucked out of the air as I and K8t have proved being first dog owners with BCs.

Was everyone elses first dog an absolute dream with no issues at all? If so then your first dog taught you nothing about dog ownership apart from confirming that were born in a kennel and instead of shaking a persons hand to greet them you wil nip round the back to learn all about them with a quick sniff becasue you must be a dog yourself.

People should not be judged on the choices they make if they are clearly willing to seek help the make and get the best out of it they possibly can. Simple.

If you are fed up of having to write the same methods out over and over again then create a website, stick your static methods "One for all dogs" on there and just direct people to it. If not then stop making generalised judgements and sweeping commenst that have no factual basis and only serve to create nagaitivity for new and regular posters.

"the worst thing that U have done so far, was to get entirely the wrong breed for a novice PET home. 
but it is what it is, and the pup is what she is... U will have to learn A * LOT, and in a very very short time!" - Does the learning stop? Thank God for that. When did you stop learning from your dogs? I am sick of having to pay attention to what my dog does all the time. How long have I got left as he's 2 now?

I believe another statement was "BC owners over here see lifting a beer with one hand and eating romt he other during the game as a level of activity". Last time I looked all BCs were owned by Americans too.

People who come here for advice are showing commitment to their cause, there are millions that don't and just give up on the dog which then gets rehomed and the new owners might come on here. Very quick to give up ont he person but not the dog on here. I wonder what it would be like if dogs could type and they had a forum? Now that would be funny.


----------



## Colliepoodle

Still not sure LFL was saying it can NEVER work - even if that's the way it reads. 'Cos of COURSE it can work. But I'll let her speak for herself


----------



## CarolineH

This was all I said?


> Your 'first dog' and you bought a Border Collie? Ohhh dear. Ok so now you have her, you are going to have to make some adjustments to how you view dog ownership as you have invested in the Ferrarri of all dog breeds


Don't see what all the fuss is about? The OP obviously has her head screwed on and the dog in question will probably do fine once these problems are got over. She's not kicking up a fuss so why are you Hutch? I stand by what I implied - it is not the best choice to go for a Border Collie as a first dog. But once the person has, if they are prepared to make the big commitment required then what the hey? Good for them and I hope that they succeed, which incidently, from the tone of the OP's response, they undoubtedly will. 

Border Collies make fantastic pets, even working bred ones, as long as their owners understand them but..... a lot of first time Border Collie owners do NOT research the breed first and are taken aback by the extra work and commitment hence the thousands of them ending up going through rescues in the UK every year. Same can be said for a lot of other breeds I suppose but Border Collies are very dear to my heart as a breed hence I said what I said. Didn't mean any insult to the OP but if they are upset by it then they are free to contact me privately. Anyone else can rant away to themselves as I have said what I wanted to in response to an outburst from Hutch.

This is the last I will say on the subject on here ok?

Nurse! Bring my meds!


----------



## leashedForLife

dear hutch,

in case U missed it the first time  post #11 - 


leashedForLife said:


> i am also certainly * not alone in saying that BCs are not for novice owners...* (and) do not suit pet-homes -
> **unless** they intend to have / already have a dog-hobby - agility, disc-dog, freestyle, herding competitions,
> bike-joring, etc -  in which the dog can star.


i would say much the same about pet-homes in the USA and Weims, GSPs, Viszlas, Aussies, ACDs, GWPs, 
and a number of other jet-propelled breeds... 
BUT - 
U can always adopt a middle-aged or senior dog, retired hunter, a LESS active young-dog of that special loved-breed, etc.

my primary-warning is always about getting an *active-breed puppy* and getting the pup 
without *ongoing support* OR - a *purpose. * :thumbsup: if U have either - support *or* a purpose - it helps. 
if U have *both* support + a purpose for the dog, thats brilliant and almost guaranteed to do well, :thumbup: 
even if U give-up the pup later, they will likely be well-reared with no serious problems to carry to their next home.

as an aside - 
a fellow-trainer wanted to compete at National levels and got 3 pups before she found her keeper; 
the 2 previous-pups went to fellow trainers who were thrilled to get a dog (for once) who did not need repairs.  
as she already had 2 dogs, keeping all 3 would have been financially ruinous, in that she would not have had 
the $$ to compete + travel - the whole point of searching for another likely-pup.

so even *with* excellent breeding, careful choice, wonderful rearing + good training - 
dogs do not always live in one home, for that lifespan between puphood + death. 
do i think it was terrible of her to get 2 pups, rear them + give them up? 
no - she was surely more disappointed than anyone else, it was not thru intention.

another experienced trainer became disabled; she wanted a dog to help her. she chose a rescue-dog and lucked-out, 
he became a BRILLIANT and well-known figure in his own right - *debi davis + her 1st Papillon. * 
Debi Davis - MDSA 
her next THREE Paps were washouts as SDs :nonod: she now has a BC (Finn).

even experience will not guarantee a perfect match - 
but choosing the right breed or mix, AND the right individual, to fit the circumstances, certainly helps. :thumbsup: 
all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## leashedForLife

> ...when the stats you are basing your comments on are plucked out of the air as I and K8t have proved *being first dog owners with BCs.*


excuse me, hutch - 
i was responding to this 


> re poisonGirl -
> _ Plenty of people have a BC as a first dog, * as you KNOW from this forum* _


i said in reply that  i did not know of any 1st-time dog-owners on PF with a BC. 
accuracy does count 



> re hutch -
> _ I believe another statement was "BC owners over here see lifting a beer with one hand and eating romt he other during the game as a level of activity". Last time I looked (?) -all- (?) BCs were owned by Americans too. _


not even Close! :lol:



leashedForLife said:


> i am VERY glad that U are both active ppl! :thumbup:
> thats a bright spot!  many BCs here are bought for their looks or brains, and * the owners idea of balanced-exercise
> is lifting their beer during the football-game on TV with one hand, and eating with the other... hmy:*
> 
> jogging, bike-jogging, and marathons are ducky for BCs.
> i hope the DogStar puppy-books get the bite intensity down quickly...
> happy reading, and all my best,
> --- terry


if there are further confusions, please let me know - i think i have answered any queries satisfactorily. 
all my best, 
--- terry


----------



## RHDL

CALMNESS and CONSISTENCY along with LOTS of exercise is the key. She will be picking up on your anxious energies too so you need to find a way of learning how to become very grounded and centered. There is an animal therapist in W Yorks who trains people in controling your own energies so you can be more calm and assertive. Assertiveness is not the same as dominance. Leadership should be from a place of calmness and understanding. Consistency requires patience and understanding the problem plus determination and stamina on YOUR part to keep going when the going gets tough. She is very young and will test you. FIrst find out all you can about the breed. Then find out whether you have the right trainer. Then start working on your own issues - confidence, knowledge, anxiety fear of failing etc.


----------



## Lady3131

I don't want to get dragged into the argument but just wanted to say that I personally agree with everything Leashedforlife had to say on this. 

I don't think Terry was rude at all. It's important to state firmly that the main mistake you made was to pick a high maintenance breed for your first dog. It may come across as something you don't want to hear but too often posts on here are by people who have no idea what they are doing and have naively entered into a situation that is rapidly getting out of control. I think it is actually very frustrating to get so many of these posts when a simple bit of research in dog training and ownership BEFORE getting a puppy would have sorted 99% of these problems. 

Leashedforlife also has more dog training experience and success than most of us put together on this forum so would re-read all the advice given as it's pretty spot on. :thumbsup:


----------



## ClaireandDaisy

leashedForLife said:


> my primary-warning is always about getting an *active-breed puppy* and getting the pup
> without *ongoing support* OR - a *purpose. * :thumbsup: if U have either - support *or* a purpose - it helps.
> if U have *both* support + a purpose for the dog, thats brilliant and almost guaranteed to do well, :thumbup:
> even if U give-up the pup later, they will likely be well-reared with no serious problems to carry to their next home.


the OP sounds intelligent and motivated and willing to learn. An ideal owner for any breed, I`d have thought. And I speak as one whose first dog was a rehomed GSD - and then I got a GSP as a companion for her.


----------



## Sled dog hotel

To be fair it sounds like a certain amount of reasearch was done. These people are not couch potatos they walk and run marathons so are active people. Who chose an active breed. Their main problem is they have a dog which has no bite inhibition. Lack of bite inhibition and hyper activity insnt unique to collies. They could have chosen another breed and still been posting with the same problem. Indeed i know someone with a cocker spaniel poodle cross. They obviously care and want to resolve the problem because they have asked for help as they dont have the experience. They could have done what hundreds of other people do and dumped the dog in a home. A good trainer isnt only good at training dogs. The have the skill to recognise people who care and no matter what problems they are having with their dog are willing to learn and rectify those problems. That they also have the patience to explain the nature of the breed and how to achieve the best results. Nuff said!!


----------



## NicoleW

We had a working dog border collie as our first dog. The only problem we ever had with her was that we lived on the back of the farm and she'd often try and herd the sheep. 4 weeks later after training, never did it again. There were two young children in the house, 4 and 5, birds and a kitten. She was absolutely brilliant with them, even from a young pup. We got her from a farm.
She mouted for about 6 weeks but never nipped hard enough to break skin. She was so easily trained and I absolutely adored her, she was by far the best behaved pup and dog I've ever had.

Then the day came when she got ran over so had to have her leg amputated, three days after being at home we got robbed and they poisoned her.

My sister has just got two dogs, both border collies and she's not experienced anything like this with her two. The oldest stands up on her back legs and watches the tv which is fairly odd. So not all BC's are that bad


----------



## Paddy Paws

Sorry, didn't have the energy to wade through all of the posts and arguments :confused1: I think that the most important thing is to get yourself a good behaviourlist to work with you. If she is insured you can ask your vet to refer you and your insurance may well pick up the bill. Good luck. If she were mine I would expect to spend 2 years of hard work to get her right.


----------



## leashedForLife

ClaireandDaisy said:


> ...I speak as one whose first dog was a rehomed GSD -
> and then I got a GSP as a companion for her.


:scared: glutton for punishment  or a slow-learner? :lol: 
[ducking and running...] Ouch! don't throw fruit, please... Ouch!... [rapid footsteps fade...]


----------



## Mese

I was thrown in at the deep end with border collies .... when I met my OH , Steve (17 years ago now , wow , lol) he owned a 1 year old BC , Buddy 
basically Bud was left at home on his own all day with a quick walk at dinnertime , surprisingly he was a well mannered dog , housetrained and knew a couple of tricks , though he was very territorial and he wasnt keen on other animals 
It kinda fell to me to look after this high energy dog every day as I didnt work and Steve did 
I knew nothing about training dogs etc , but id say me and Bud did ok , he was my best friend for 14 years , we sadly lost him April 08

Now I have 3 BC's Toffee , Gypsy and Teddy (my third thanks to Hutch for the recomendation and Barbara Sykes rescue for allowing us to adopt him) 
If it hadnt been for knowing Bud & learning alongside him I wouldnt have loved this breed so much ... so imo sometimes a first time owner and BC's can work :thumbup:


----------



## leashedForLife

Mese said:


> If it hadnt been for knowing Bud & learning alongside him
> I wouldnt have loved this breed so much ... so IMO sometimes a first time owner and BCs can work :thumbup:


_U forgot to add "IME" --- :thumbup: :thumbup: 
and obviously, U did well by Bud, and have continued to love 'busy' dogs... 
who [apparently, LOL] love U right back! :001_cool:

obviously, some novice-owners Can + Do climb the rapid, steep learning-curve of 'busy' or 'worky' breeds; 
but many-more cannot.  i am not here to condemn the folks who get a busy or job-WANTED dog, 
really get into dog-activities, surmount the challenge, and love their baptism by fire. 
[and their dogs] - i am here for the DOGS, to caution novice-owners to please be aware 
that breeds who were meant as companions - toy-Spaniels, Pekes, Pugs... 
are way, way, WAY different than are Wannabe-Worker-K9s like hunting-line Goldens + Labs 
vs show-line Flab-Labs and pet-line Goldens, or working-line BCs and Aussies, vs show or pet lines. 
EVEN PET-LINE *BCs* are "busier" than most Flab-Labs [Brit-type blockhead show-line Labs], 
who might break into a real run 2 or 3 times a week, once they reach 12-MO - many are elderly-sedate 
by 2-YO; walking at a sober pace twice a day, plus 3 more potty-trips to the yard, is fine for them.

i do NOT want to encourage any novice who already has a BC to dump their dog; 
i want to encourage novices to carefully consider just how much *time they have, 
truthfully + baldly, for any future dog at all - * and if they really, really want a busy-breed, 
to consider just *how they intend to keep that dog busy.* it's not a crime to get a busy-dog 
as a first-dog... *unless U fail to have a plan to occupy their time, somehow.

not having a plan for occupying their paws + minds *is* IMO, a crime.* 
if U are going to get that adorable work-y puppy: Maligator, Border-Patrol GSD, hunting-line or 
working-line pup or adult of any breed whatever... *Meet adults of the breed, not just 
adorable pups of immediately-salable age without their dam - * who is described 
as 'nervous' with strangers, or is [conveniently] out of town, or...

Please - don't be a sucker, sold an adorable infant who will grow-up to be a dog U cannot make happy -
and who will be very unhappy with U; be prepared for what U are about to take on: a lifestyle, 
with the dog in the middle, and work as earnings to support the dog-habit + pay the bills.

for *mese: Congratulations, U are a BC-fan - it's hopeless, now. :lol: 
blessings on all the busy, work-y dogs, 
- terry _


----------



## sophie carter

Please can anyone help?!

Daisy is 11 month old border collie. She is a very timid and chilled dog however recently when she is near children she barks at them, or if a child walks into my shop she wil bark at them.. more recently she has shown more aggression towards them and nipped a child when he went and stroked her, and I am worried about her been around children now, its not as bad if she isnt on the lead and roaming about on her own free and wont bark at all it just seems to be when she is on the lead. Either way I want to get it sorted. Is this something anyone can help with? 

Cheers, Sophie


----------



## Guest

sophie carter said:


> Please can anyone help?!
> 
> Daisy is 11 month old border collie. She is a very timid and chilled dog however recently when she is near children she barks at them, or if a child walks into my shop she wil bark at them.. more recently she has shown more aggression towards them and nipped a child when he went and stroked her, and I am worried about her been around children now, its not as bad if she isnt on the lead and roaming about on her own free and wont bark at all it just seems to be when she is on the lead. Either way I want to get it sorted. Is this something anyone can help with?
> 
> Cheers, Sophie


Hi Sophie, 
Might be better to start a new thread, this is a rather old one and folks may ignore it because of that 

As for your Collie, I'd start by not allowing children to interact with her at all. Is there a place in your shop where she can go where customers can't have any access to her?

It might be worth working with a professional, especially since this has already escalated to a bite. Did she break skin?
Are you willing to work with a behaviorist? If she is insured, insurance might include training costs.


----------



## Guest

This is an old thread from 2010.


----------



## Moobli

I agree with Ouesi about starting a new thread as your post will likely get ignored because you have just added it to an old thread and also about seeking professional help.

Border collies are a sensitive and reactionary breed, not always best suited to a situation which involves lots of noise, fast movement (ie running children, cars, joggers, bikes etc) but a good trainer/behaviourist, ideally with border collie experience, should be able to provide you with the tools to help your dog learn to cope with her environment. In the meantime, I would keep her away from customers in your shop and not allow strangers to pet her etc.

Whereabouts are you in the UK and someone may be able to provide a recommendation for a reputable trainer in your area.

This article is also invaluable when understanding border collies (assuming she comes from working lines)

http://agilitynet.co.uk/training/bordercollie_suekitchen_leewindeatt.html


----------



## Burrowzig

sophie carter said:


> Please can anyone help?!
> 
> Daisy is 11 month old border collie. She is a very timid and chilled dog however recently when she is near children she barks at them, or if a child walks into my shop she wil bark at them.. more recently she has shown more aggression towards them and nipped a child when he went and stroked her, and I am worried about her been around children now, its not as bad if she isnt on the lead and roaming about on her own free and wont bark at all it just seems to be when she is on the lead. Either way I want to get it sorted. Is this something anyone can help with?
> 
> Cheers, Sophie


@sophie carter, it would be best to start a new thread rather than tag your post onto one that's 7 years old. 
If a dog is on lead and has no means of escape, it's more likely to act in what it believes is self-defence. 
Avoid stress triggers; if your dog barks at people who come into your shop, either leave her at home or keep her out the back (baby gate in doorway, perhaps) where there can be no direct confrontation. Stress causes the dog to produce hormones that stay in the system for some time, and anything else the dog finds worrying just stacks up the effect. A lot of Border Collies are quite stressy dogs. The lives they were bred for - staying on the farm, working, meeting few strange people or dogs - are a million miles from the lives many of them are expected to lead now and often they don't cope well. 
You could benefit from consulting a properly qualified behaviourist. Avoid those that believe in pack leader theory at all costs.


----------

