# ok ive had the results for my dog with the problem legs a day early



## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

Apparently its where his bone is growing too quick compared to his ligaments, so his ligaments are shorter than his bone. He also said his bones are slightly bowed. He sad it is quite normal for a dog of this age to be like this, and that we should leave it for a couple of weeks and it should sort itself out! I explained that it had become worse and that i found a website which said to change its food and use vet bandages, he said this wasnt necessary, and if it gets worse they may need to operate.

Something which can be avoided according to the greatdanelady.com website.

He said i could *see* a specialist if i wanted, as he had only got the results from the specialist today for the x-rays he had taken, but i feel i would be going round in circles as i feel i know more than them at the moment. My problem is im not sure how bad it could get.

I also dont know what the right thing to do is, do i leave him like the vet said, but he could get worse, or change diet something i dont know much about, the greatdane website is from a lady in the US, so i dont want to be making expensive calls.

I did tell the breeder this morning and asked if he would take it back as i really dont need all this worry with a new dog, he didnt seem keen on taking it back but is calling me later to discuss it furthur. He said he doesnt have time to deal with it as he is at work all day and his wife is out all the time (in my opinion they should have time as they bred them and had pups) they could of had the dog with problems had we of left it a couple of more days to go and choose one.

I can see its probably not something to do with him breeding them, but more of a development problem for the dog. The breeder did say it didnt happen when it was with him! so trying to get out of it that way. But all the same i feel that he could of had a problem when it was with him but he just didnt notice the first signs and we did.

Anyway im in a way hoping he will take the dog back as i really feel im out of my depth a little here, especially with conflicting advice from websites and vet!


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

If your insurance is paying, I would go and see a specialist.
Doesn't sound as if the breeder wants to know, but I think you could still insist that he take the pup back if you feel you can take it further within the law


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

I'm sure we had a member on here with a similar problem a while back, but to a much lesser degree.
I will try and find her posts and pm you


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## juliemom (Feb 11, 2010)

oh hun bless you both i bet you are so fed up, the breeder needs reporting can you not repert it to the kennel club im sure there is somewere you could go.
i know its not just about getting him to have the pup back but so this doesnt happen in the future.
you m ust be at your wits end bless you as they touch our heart strings from the minute we get them dont they

hope all gets sorted soon


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

im not sure im just contacting pet plan to find out, but its just annoying, im not sure where i stand with the breeder as it may not be a problem from him breeding his pets, its could just be a development problem, so not sure what i would be reporting.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

The breeder's not Kennel Club registered so you can't report him to them.
The only people you could try is Trading Standards if the breeder won't give you a refund, as dogs are viewed as goods.

I can't really advise on the condition, I hope your insurance covers everything.
My heart goes out to you and your family being in this awful position.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

sammykins said:


> Apparently its where his bone is growing too quick compared to his ligaments, so his ligaments are shorter than his bone. He also said his bones are slightly bowed. He sad it is quite normal for a dog of this age to be like this, and that we should leave it for a couple of weeks and it should sort itself out! I explained that it had become worse and that i found a website which said to change its food and use vet bandages, he said this wasnt necessary, and if it gets worse they may need to operate.
> 
> Something which can be avoided according to the greatdanelady.com website.
> 
> ...


You don't know more than them, you have googled the condition and found a website with information which could be nonsence. 
I don't see why the breeder should take him back as he probably has done nothing wrong. 
I really feel for this dog as your not even giving him a chance to see if he will get better.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

mollythecollie said:


> You don't know more than them, you have googled the condition and found a website with information which could be nonsence.
> I don't see why the breeder should take him back as he probably has done nothing wrong.
> I really feel for this dog as your not even giving him a chance to see if he will get better.


I think you are being a little harsh here.
Have you seen the previous thread from this member?
If not I suggest you go and have a look


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> You don't know more than them, you have googled the condition and found a website with information which could be nonsence.
> I don't see why the breeder should take him back as he probably has done nothing wrong.
> I really feel for this dog as your not even giving him a chance to see if he will get better.


A breeder should always take back a dog that an owner does not want for whatever reason. Also, dogs are viewed as goods under law so if the breeder didn't give you a refund, then you can take them to court as they sold you a puppy with problems.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

QUOTE
I do wonder what would happen to the pup if i gave it back, and now at least i know he is in the best hands and that i can look after him and take him to vets etc.

This is a quote from the OP from the other thread, just incase anyone else thinks they are not willing to give this pup a chance


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

See the specialist, regardless.

Why take the risk that surgery could be an option, when you could possibly prevent it using more conservative methods?

Vets are like GP's, their knowledge is limited, hence why specialists exist. With something as serious as growth, i wouldnt risk leaving it without getting a second, and more qualified, opinion.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

if i get nowhere with the breeder later tonight then i will definately see a specialist, i dont want him to suffer. But i think it was more the point that the vet wasnt alarmed and he feels it will just resolve itself, which looking at how bad he is and then reading other websites, looks like we should intervene and do something about it, whether it be diet/splints etc. 

God knows how long it will take to get an appointment to see the specialist, by this time he could be alot worse. And i can imagine it will be alot of ... "wait for a couple of weeks so how he is blah blah blah", which is what the vet said today. I was the one pushing him to do something for the pup! but he was like, well if you insist i can let you see a specialist! almost makes me feel im nuerotic!

I only found out this morning so even if i arranged to make an appointment for the specialist after speaking to the breeder later today, then im not neglecting him, im just seeing what is right for my family and children, and seeing if i can cope with extra vet appointments, worry etc. Something i really didnt think i would be dealing with 2 days after buying a pup. I expected this type of problem later on in life, with the added worry and vet bills etc

I could personally do without this to be honest. Poor little Pup, either way i wont let him suffer.


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## Debs61 (May 20, 2009)

If the breeder doesnt take him back, what are you going to do...sell him on or keep him?
As the breeder isnt Kc reg you cant go down that road...if you decide to go via trading standards and court to get your money back be prepared for the court to tell you to hand the dog back, you wont be allowed to keep the pup and have your refund ...could you live with that..knowing that he possibly isnt going to get the medical help he needs. I know I couldnt do that, I would want to give the pup the best possible life I could give him. As hes insured you still have that to help with the cost of vets bills.

3yrs ago we bought a Cavalier..advertised as KC reg..went to see her, beautiful tri..papers hadnt arrived the breeder said...(stupidly) we paid our money and took her home.(.we are still waiting for her papers)..after many calls we went down the trading standards road..only to be told if we went to court and the judge found in our favour we would have to give the pup back..i couldnt do that, we all loved her..she has hip dysplasia, but shes ours and we will help her as much as we can.

At the end of the day he is yours, but just be prepared for heartache if you do hand him back for your money in return.:crying:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I would have a good look at your insurance policy before making any decisions. Many of the puppy insurance cover schemes *exclude* anything that starts within the first 14 days after purchase. Perhaps phone the insurance company for clarification?

While it is awful to have to think about money, if your pup's condition isn't covered by insurance, could you afford any surgery or extensive treatment if it was required, or problems that may arise later in life as a result of this problem?

If you find you aren't covered, will the breeder help with any vet bills?


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> I would have a good look at your insurance policy before making any decisions. Many of the puppy insurance cover schemes *exclude* anything that starts within the first 14 days after purchase. Perhaps phone the insurance company for clarification?
> 
> While it is awful to have to think about money, if your pup's condition isn't covered by insurance, could you afford any surgery or extensive treatment if it was required, or problems that may arise later in life as a result of this problem?
> 
> If you find you aren't covered, will the breeder help with any vet bills?


Didn't we have someone on here recently, who's pup was covered by the puppy insurance but when they changed it to permanent insurance, even though it was the same insurers the company wouldn't pay any more for the condition that they had been claiming for?


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

sammykins said:


> I also dont know what the right thing to do is, do i leave him like the vet said, but he could get worse, or change diet something i dont know much about, the greatdane website is from a lady in the US, so i dont want to be making expensive calls.


Well I have no idea how much of what this lady says is gospel (and I did wonder if you could possibly source an identical holistic food for your boy, maybe Burns? might be worth peering at the nutritional info online) but if you'd like to call her and ask her any questions there are quite a few ways to call the USA for 1p a min, I use them to call my friend in NY; Cheap phone calls to USA - just 1p/min if that helps x

agh edit: just noticed she wants $50 PER HALF HOUR PHONE CONSULTATION - gotcha.

found an interesting article here, though it's mainly about horses there is some relevant info about nutrition from which you could glean ideas of how to help the little fellow. Perhaps the IAMs is higher energy food than he requires at the moment?

best of luck xx


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

I have no answer for you im afraid,i wish i did.
It must be a terrible worry for you and the family.
But surly having a pup 2days and a problem like this develops,you must have rights somewhere along the line.

Maybe contact citizen advice if someones not already suggested it.
Hope you get something sorted soon for doggy and you.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

hi , have they given you a name for the condition??

i had a similar type of problem around 17 years ago and wondered if it was the same.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

dexter said:


> hi , have they given you a name for the condition??
> 
> i had a similar type of problem around 17 years ago and wondered if it was the same.


totaly off topic but Was this with yourself or an animal??

My nephew had this problem when he was young and he had to be operated on they had to cut his ligament in a zigzag so they would stretch along the bone, he is fine now

Juliex


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I would bare in mind that returning the pup may result in a death sentence for him. The breeders seems reluctant to take any responsibility, so are they realistically going to seek treatment for him should they take him back?


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

It looks exactly the same as this

Intoxicating Bullies American Bulldogs - Kunckling Over

All sites seem to refer back to The Greatdane lady


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

paddyjulie said:


> totaly off topic but Was this with yourself or an animal??
> 
> My nephew had this problem when he was young and he had to be operated on they had to cut his ligament in a zigzag so they would stretch along the bone, he is fine now
> 
> Juliex


Hi J . with a dog. the condition only came out in a pup between 8 and 12 weeks,


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

It sounds like good news from the vet.. as he seems to be positive the problem will resolve with time.... 
Try to get advice froom the specialist tho... its always better if you can hear it first hand and have any other questions you may have, answered reasuringly, with reasons behind them

While the pup is with you, I would gently massage his front legs and paws for him... i bet his muscles must be aching soo much as they are constantly pulled tight right now.

As for the breeder.... he produced the pups and he has a responsibilty over them while they are young... even back yard breeders tend to take puppies back if something happens... so long as the pup is still young and doesnt have any aggression or problems caused directly by the purchaser, I think he haas a responsibilty to take the pup back and give you a refund...
if he is using the excuse he cant, due to no one being in ( who looks after his dogs,puppies, cats and kittens, if there is rarely anyone in ?? ) ... i would ask him for a full refund on the basis you are going to sign the pup over to the RSPCA or local dogs home where it will get the care and attention it needs.

You have my full sympathy.

Just out of curiosity, could you get help with vet costs etc from the blue cross, rspca or pdsa ???
Im sure a quick phone call to discuss your situation wouldnt do any harm and you might get some help from one of these organisations.

Best of luck to both you and your pup


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

The breeder should at least give you a full refund then you could make the decision on whether to keep the pup or have him pts. At least you would have a bit of money for ongoing treatment or to give him more time. I dont think I would consider keeping him myself, a dog should be a pleasure and you have only had him 2 days, why should you start off with all this heartache. I very much doubt if your insurance will cover a condition that must have been there when you bought him. And whether it is a genetic condition or not the breeder is still responsible. Citizens advice or trading standards is the way to go before you get too fond of him.
If the photos you posted are really how he looks then your vet must be mad to say it is fairly usual.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> The breeder should at least give you a full refund then you could make the decision on whether to keep the pup or have him pts. At least you would have a bit of money for ongoing treatment or to give him more time. I dont think I would consider keeping him myself, a dog should be a pleasure and you have only had him 2 days, why should you start off with all this heartache. I very much doubt if your insurance will cover a condition that must have been there when you bought him. And whether it is a genetic condition or not the breeder is still responsible. Citizens advice or trading standards is the way to go before you get too fond of him.
> If the photos you posted are really how he looks then your vet must be mad to say it is fairly usual.


i actually agree with you here. the OP shouldn't be facing this heartbreak such a short time after purchase.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i agree the breeder needs to be contacted asap......... contact trading standards if you get no joy......


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Is it Pano???? I'm confused.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Sorry I'm just catching up - how old is your dog??


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Sorry just seen your previous posts - if I were you I wouldnt ring the breeder I'd go straight round there with the puppy and let them have a look at him - distance wouldnt put me off, they need to see what's happening with the pup - I know we fall in love with our puppies but his breeders really need to see him


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Blitz said:


> *I very much doubt if your insurance will cover a condition that must have been there when you bought him.*


I posted about this before, and I feel it is a very important consideration in whatever decision you make. And I also agree the breeder should see what the pup is like, but be careful s/he doesn't try to make out it's something you've done yourself.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

thanks for all the positive replies, at least i dont feel heartless when thinking maybe i should return him to the breeder. I am only thinking practically at the end of the day. That is a good idea - turning up at his door step with the dog and showing him. Or getting him to give me money towards his bills, either way money doesnt really matter at the end of the day its more dealing with a dog with problems (especially so young in his life) for what could be he rest of his life. 

Im now waiting for 7 o clock when the breeder calls me to see what he is going to do!

tick tock tick tock.


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

I really feel for you and your pup,i hope the breeder takes this seriously and you get the peace of mind to work forward whatever you decide.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

It did cross my mind that it the bitch really has had 6 litters  she may have become depleted in some minerals over time, and passed that onto this litter. 6 litters amounts to quite heavy over-breeding.

Most reputable breeders take no more than 2-3 litters per bitch, starting at 2 years old-ish, and code of conduct ethics for most breed clubs advise no more than 4 litters from the same girl.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

If you do decide to go to see the specialist then write a list of all the questions you need to have answered and take it with you. That way you then don't forget anything you want to ask.


Good luck with him. At least you now have an answer to what his problem is. You just have to decide what to do now.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

would be interesting to see whats happeing  any news?

(if you go to a specialist - this is their job they will be able to tell you without question what is happening and how long it will happen for, they do not try to impress you as vets do with talk - they cut the mustard and tell you directly what the issues are - but be aware they are more expensive than the vets, and may affect your insurance if you only have an annual policy)


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

james1 said:


> .....but be aware they are more expensive than the vets, and may affect your insurance if you only have an annual policy)


It's a puppy... so it will be under temp puppy insurance cover (4 or 6 wks depending on company) and most do not cover anything that arises in the first 14 days after purchase (as that signifies it was a pre-existing condition or an illness caught at the breeder's).

I would love to hear news too....


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Jo P said:


> Sorry just seen your previous posts - if I were you I wouldnt ring the breeder I'd go straight round there with the puppy and let them have a look at him - distance wouldnt put me off, they need to see what's happening with the pup - I know we fall in love with our puppies but his breeders really need to see him


I think this is sound advice. Dont be confrontational as there is more to be gained by asking for a reasonable discussion about the problem, then at the end of it asking the breeder what he is prepared to do. Keep the lines of communication open. Good luck.

It will be heartbreaking if you do take him back I agree but if you dont, will the breeder carry on doing this sort of thing?


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

Right ok, spoke to the breeder, he said his family member wasnt able to take him on, as breeder didnt have time himself he wanted to see if other members would take him on. Anyway when i said i felt that as it was one of his pups he was still somewhat responsible, i felt as though the problem was with the pup when we got it and it wasnt noticed, and we noticed it 2 days later, i explained we went to the vets, i let him know asap, then ive researched most of the weekend and then told him the vet results as soon as. I feel i have let him know all the time whats going on, and that had he had the pup 2 more days he would of had to find out the problem himself etc.

I then just said i should be enjoying the puppy and shouldnt really be having to deal with all this worry so soon after buying a puppy. Anyway then he said he might ask another family member, i just said why cant you take it? you have more experience with this type of dog etc, anyway he wants a report from the vet then he muttered he would take it back, but hes ringing me tommorow. He wants to get a second opinion too, so it sounds like he is going to sort it out!
He also said something about meeting each other half way!!! whether he means he will only give me half the money back or meet half the journey to give the dog back i wasnt sure. I forgot to ask about how many litters he had! 

So fingers crossed, he will be back with his breeder tommorow night! then he can get sorted, if the vets do decide to do something about it!

Thanks for all your support guys x


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Well lets hope, for the puppies sake, that something is sorted tomorrow - well done for stating your case calmly.

This is a brilliant example of what can happen if you buy a pup without a contract - I know people say contracts arent worth the paper they are written on but if you get a responsible, ethical breeder then they do stick to their side of the bargain.

Best of luck


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sammykins said:


> He wants to get a second opinion too, so it sounds like he is going to sort it out!


Has he actually said he will have the puppy treated and monitored, or are you assuming?

Personally i wouldnt do anything until there was a concrete diagnosis that had been given by a specialist. And if he werent going to treat the dog, then he wouldnt get it back if it were me. Id go down other avenues.

Who knows, you could have a perfectly normal pup in a matter of weeks.


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

I really feel for you.
We chose one of our dogs when she was 2 weeks old. We went to visit her every single weekend until we collected her at 8 weeks - by which time the whole family adored her.
2 days after we brought her home, we took her to the vet for a check up and were told she has luxating patellas in both back legs and the vet advised us to return her to the breeder..... We were absolutely heartbroken. We discussed it and agreed there was no way we could return her. BUT we phoned the breeder who quite rightly asked us to take the pup to her own vet for a check up. Once that vet confirmed our vet's diagnosis, the breeder was absolutely fantastic and gave us our money back - and we still kept our little girl.
It hasn't been easy and she is incredibly delicate 3 years down the line. We pay for lifetime cover insurance and the insurance company have been fantastic...... We are certain we made the right choice as she is such a happy, lovely, friendly, adorable dog. We have since got two more dogs and were totally paranoid about them as pups, but luckily they are fine! So we have 5 dogs - one of whom has problems, but I wouldn't change her for all the world!!!

Good luck whatever you decide!
xx


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Has he actually said he will have the puppy treated and monitored, or are you assuming?
> 
> Personally i wouldnt do anything until there was a concrete diagnosis that had been given by a specialist. And if he werent going to treat the dog, then he wouldnt get it back if it were me. Id go down other avenues.
> 
> Who knows, you could have a perfectly normal pup in a matter of weeks.


I completely hear what you are saying, but it is the OP's decision if he doesn't feel up to the job of taking care of this pup; we all react differently and take different times to bond with our dogs and have different circumstances; personally I would demand my money back and would want to keep the pup and use the money towards vet treatments as I wouldn't trust the breeder at this stage. It feels like the breeder couldn't care less about the dog himself or would have bent backwards to make sure the little fellow was ok. I class this pup as I would see a rescue dog with a condition and i don't see dogs as merchandise you return when it is faulty, but by all means I wouldn't judge your decision as it is clear you want rid and I am sure you have your good reasons.


> So fingers crossed, he will be back with his breeder tommorow night!


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I may have missed it on here (sorry if i have) when you went to see puppy in the breeders home did you see mum and dad? if not could it be a puppy farm?
Whatever you decide to do ,i wish you all the best i cant imagine what a really tough time this has been for you


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

dodigna said:


> I completely hear what you are saying, but it is the OP's decision if he doesn't feel up to the job of taking care of this pup; we all react differently and take different times to bond with our dogs and have different circumstances; personally I would demand my money back and would want to keep the pup and use the money towards vet treatments as I wouldn't trust the breeder at this stage. It feels like the breeder couldn't care less about the dog himself or would have bent backwards to make sure the little fellow was ok. I class this pup as I would see a rescue dog with a condition and i don't see dogs as merchandise you return when it is faulty, but by all means I wouldn't judge your decision as it is clear you want rid and I am sure you have your good reasons.


I know its the ops decision, i merely stating what I would do, rather than telling her what she should like an awful lot of people on this thread.

I wouldnt do anything until i knew where i stood on an insurance level, and until id taken the dog to see a specialist and had a proper diagnosis.

A dogs life possibly hangs in the balance, its not something id rush.


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## welshdoglover (Aug 31, 2009)

Wow, amazing thread.

I hope the OP and the pup both come out ok in the end.

If it were me I would return the pup and ask for my £ back, but being a blooming softy I'd wait and see!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

yes the mum and dad were both to be seen, He said he doesnt want the pup to suffer and that he will take it to the vets, which im sure he will.

I had a look into the insurance and it was £33 a month with petplan and £17 with tesco, which as im already with pet plan seems alot to pay a month. 

But anyway i do care for the puppy and i wouldnt want it to suffer, if i thought he wouldnt sort it out i would sort the pup out myself, but as ive said before i really dont want to take the risk in keeping him to have life long problems as it could mean operations, heartache etc, its not fair on my family. I would rather not take on a problem dog with the amount i have to do. Thats not to say that i wouldnt care for it if it came to it, but if i had the option to somehow get out of this situation knowing the dog will be ok, then i would much rather that.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I wouldnt do anything until i knew where i stood on an insurance level, and until id taken the dog to see a specialist and had a proper diagnosis.


Sensible advice.

One thing I'd be interested to hear though, has the breeder seen the pics or the pup at all? Just curious because I don't think anyone could fob you off lightly after seeing those, if they had even a shred of conscience.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I know its the ops decision, i merely stating what I would do, rather than telling her what she should like an awful lot of people on this thread.
> 
> I wouldnt do anything until i knew where i stood on an insurance level, and until id taken the dog to see a specialist and had a proper diagnosis.
> 
> A dogs life possibly hangs in the balance, its not something id rush.


But I agree, wouldn't have my dog if I didn't. My feeling is that the OP is wanting the dog returned to the breeder and doubt they have checked insurance which would have been my first phone call, even before waiting on the breeder's response. Unfortunately not all dogs are gonna turn out picture perfect, one takes on a responsibility when buying a pet. In any case I feel for this pup because he sounds doomed even before a specialist was to do a proper assessment, the vet's opinion at the end of the day was quite positive, still nobody seems to really want him. Quite a sad story  Especially so as I see advises saying to return the dog as you don't need the hassle :crying:, well you take on the hassle the moment you decide to expand your family. It is hard not feel moral conflict. feel for the pup, feel for the OP's situation...


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

dodigna said:


> But I agree, wouldn't have my dog if I didn't. My feeling is that the OP is wanting the dog returned to the breeder and doubt they have checked insurance which would have been my first phone call, even before waiting on the breeder's response. Unfortunately not all dogs are gonna turn out picture perfect, one takes on a responsibility when buying a pet. In any case I feel for this pup because he sounds doomed even before a specialist was to do a proper assessment, the vet's opinion at the end of the day was quite positive, still nobody seems to really want him. Quite a sad story  Especially so as I see advises saying to return the dog as you don't need the hassle :crying:, well you take on the hassle the moment you decide to expand your family. It is hard not feel moral conflict. feel for the pup, feel for the OP's situation...


I fear that the breeders way of dealing with this will be to PTS


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

Yep I too feel a bit saddened by this thread. Reps to Nonnie and Dodigna, what they said x :crying:


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

sammykins said:


> yes the mum and dad were both to be seen, He said he doesnt want the pup to suffer and that he will take it to the vets, which im sure he will.
> 
> I had a look into the insurance and it was £33 a month with petplan and £17 with tesco, which as im already with pet plan seems alot to pay a month.
> 
> But anyway i do care for the puppy and i wouldnt want it to suffer, if i thought he wouldnt sort it out i would sort the pup out myself, but as ive said before i really dont want to take the risk in keeping him to have life long problems as it could mean operations, heartache etc, its not fair on my family. I would rather not take on a problem dog with the amount i have to do. Thats not to say that i wouldnt care for it if it came to it, but if i had the option to somehow get out of this situation knowing the dog will be ok, then i would much rather that.


Did you actually raised the issue of this condition with petplan and would they be willing to continue cover if this turned out to be an ongoing condition? also if you returned the pup would petplan keep cover? If you were to move to tesco now this condition would not be covered and in fact probably anything remotely related to it, these days insurances are getting clever. If the insurance you have now covers for a specialist to see him why not give your self peace of mind knowing you have made an informed decision.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> I fear that the breeders way of dealing with this will be to PTS


That would be my biggest concern. All this puppy may need is time, and i would worry the breeder wouldnt be prepared for this and will just cut their losses.

Of course if someone cant cope with a sick pup, then its sensible to pass it on to someone who can. But maybe in this situation a rescue would be a better option, whilst also trying to seek a refund if the money is an issue.

The op has my full sympathies. Ive been in the same situation with a puppy, the only differences being i knew before hand and didnt part with money for him.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

rona said:


> I fear that the breeders way of dealing with this will be to PTS


I didn't wanna say this as I don't want to come across pushy as I am on "team puppy" here, but that is exactly how I read "will not let the pup suffer". I would hate to know this would happen and then the vet was correct in his diagnosis and time would have resolved the problem..:crying:


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

dodigna said:


> I didn't wanna say this as I don't want to come across pushy as I am on "team puppy" here, but that is exactly how I read "will not let the pup suffer". I would hate to know this would happen and then the vet was correct in his diagnosis and time would have resolved the problem..:crying:


I just felt that someone should say it, from some of the things that have been posted here, it doesn't sound like an ethical breeder.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

I must add one thing, the specialist has already seen the x-rays and has advised the vet to just leave it and it should sort itself out,(so its not just the vets opinion) BUT i feel and looking at other information on the websites that you shouldnt just leave it. If i were to take this on board then i feel that i would be having to see the specialist then i would imagine i would be going around in circles. As i was told that we should just leave him and see what happens within the next couple of weeks, then if it gets worse he may need an operation! And this is why i feel i cant take this on, as it seems more of a waiting game and dont want to have to watch all this, i just want to have a pup i can enjoy without stress!

if i knew he would be put to sleep then i wouldnt give him back, but he does seem a normal person and i feel that he would be better in dealing with him, he may think that i would leave the dog to suffer (something which i wouldnt do and havnt done) and that is probably why he said he doesnt want to see it suffer. Yes i agree that when you buy any animal then you take on responsibility - that goes without saying, but this situation is slightly different, it only happened days after buying him and i dont feel like i should be taking on a problem. i did find out some info with regards to the insurance to a lady i could hardly understand due to her strong foreign accent, but i did get the jist that she said it would be covered. 

The dog is very much loved and i feel no-one should feel sorry for him at all with regards to the care he is getting as he is very much loved and i have no doubt that the breeder will carry on caring for him in the same manner. I am just doing what i feel is right for my family, and in my situation its not as easy as that (i wont go into too much detail) but there are other factors to consider. 

Had i of rescued him for free knowing i was taking on a problem then thats a different story.


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## punkeydew (Nov 16, 2008)

Not sure if this is related, but I just got a new aussie pup. The breeder specifically told me I am not to feed her puppy food. She's 9 weeks and has been on adult food since she;s been eating solids.

The reason the breeder said was because her and quite a few aussie breeders have discovered their bones grow too fast on the puppy food and this results in a number of problems. It sounds like what might be happening to you.

Being on adult food wont harm them in any way, i went over it woth my vet just to double check and he said it is very common and perfectly fine for her to be eating adult food. She will reach the same weight she is suppossed to be, but just a little slower. Fine by me

Mabey talk to the vet about switching to adult food just as a precaution?


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## love_my_pets (Feb 2, 2010)

Oh my! What a sad post! I must agree with Nonnie- i would be very worried that the poor little puppy would be pts. I would personally wait for the specialists opinion as if your vet is correct you could have a happy healthy pup in a few weeks. If i hadnt of just got a puppy from a rescue i would have had him from you instead of you giving him back to the breeder. 
I got a dog from a rescue 4 years ago, she came to me seemingly ok but within a day was really poorly- it took 6 weeks of vet care and cost me approx 4000 pounds (insurance wouldnt cover her for the first 28 days as she was from a rescue) but i never once thought about returning her- she almost had to be pts but i pushed the vet to do more and 4 years later she is still a happy healthy little thing.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

sammykins said:


> if i knew he would be put to sleep then i wouldnt give him back, but he does seem a normal person and i feel that he would be better in dealing with him, he may think that i would leave the dog to suffer (something which i wouldnt do and havnt done) and that is probably why he said he doesnt want to see it suffer. Yes i agree that when you buy any animal then you take on responsibility - that goes without saying, but this situation is slightly different, it only happened days after buying him and i dont feel like i should be taking on a problem. i did find out some info with regards to the insurance to a lady i could hardly understand due to her strong foreign accent, but i did get the jist that she said it would be covered.
> 
> The dog is very much loved and i feel no-one should feel sorry for him at all with regards to the care he is getting as he is very much loved and i have no doubt that the breeder will carry on caring for him in the same manner. I am just doing what i feel is right for my family, and in my situation its not as easy as that (i wont go into too much detail) but there are other factors to consider.
> 
> Had i of rescued him for free knowing i was taking on a problem then thats a different story.


I just wish you and your puppy all the luck in the world. Whatever you decide


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

i will say that i wont let him put him to sleep, i wouldnt want that to happen, and i will make sure when i speak to him tommorow that this will not be an option. i would rather take him on and sort him out myself if that were to be the case, i wouldnt let that happen, i do have a heart! i just feel that if i could get out of this situation easily, knowing he would still get the right care then i would rather do so.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2010)

sammykins said:


> i will say that i wont let him put him to sleep, i wouldnt want that to happen, and i will make sure when i speak to him tommorow that this will not be an option. i would rather take him on and sort him out myself if that were to be the case, i wouldnt let that happen, i do have a heart! i just feel that if i could get out of this situation easily, knowing he would still get the right care then i would rather do so.


That does come across in your other posts


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Who knows, you could have a perfectly normal pup in a matter of weeks.


They could also have a perfectly normal pup if they buy from another breeder also. If the pup turns out to be fine the breeder can always sell it on again without the OP having the worry.

I wouldnt risk it personally, things are really up in the air as far as its health and the breeder should appreciate this outright and take the pup back. It doesnt matter in the least whether they have got a family member to take care of it - If they didnt manage to sell the pup in the first place they would have to be taking care of it right now.

If they turned people away favouring you to buy - they could also get back in touch with them and say one is still available.

You will not be able to get insurance for any leg problems from any insurance company now (unless you go with the one taken as a free trail) but you will have to meet all of this initial expense. As it is now seen as a pre existing condition they could still increase their annual costs just incase another issue pops up.

Switching companies will mean any leg issues will not be covered, unless you pay an inflated premium cover - these types of issues can cost thousands and thousands. Good news though. thanks for the up date 

edit: specialists dont usually go by someone elses radiographs, they usually want to make their own judgement. They are usually referral clinics meaning a 2nd opinon diagnosis. Seems a little odd that they are willing to give a verdict based on some xrays they havent taken or ever seen the dog in question.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

thanks for that, yes i agree he needs to be seen by a specialist and they can see for themselves whats what, but this is why i feel at the moment if i keep him any longer and go to that appointment that i will end up growing too attached etc etc

Thanks for your post James thats exactly how i feel :smile5:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> edit: specialists dont usually go by someone elses radiographs, they usually want to make their own judgement. They are usually referral clinics meaning a 2nd opinon diagnosis. Seems a little odd that they are willing to give a verdict based on some xrays they havent taken or ever seen the dog in question.


Its actually common practice for x-rays to be sent to specialists.. The vet can not diagnose without seeing the animal, but they can give their professional opinion based on the images.
It depends on the condition or the findings whether or not the animals is offered an appointment.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

sammykins said:


> thanks for that, yes i agree he needs to be seen by a specialist and they can see for themselves whats what, but this is why i feel at the moment if i keep him any longer and go to that appointment that i will end up growing too attached etc etc
> 
> Thanks for your post James thats exactly how i feel :smile5:


specialists do like to see what they are potentially dealing with, seems odd they would give verdict in line with the vet to me.

It has got to be frustrating without doubt, you dont want to blow up at them for fear of being told no and on the other hand you just want them to take it and show responsibility/backbone.

I say shout at em lol  itll work out


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammykins said:


> i will say that i wont let him put him to sleep, i wouldnt want that to happen, and *i will make sure when i speak to (the breeder) tomorrow that (euthanasia) will not be an option.* i would rather take him on and sort him out myself if that were to be the case, i wouldnt let that happen...


ai-yai-yai... 
sam, i hate to say this, * but... * _* once the pup is out of Ur possession + in the other persons... *_ that decision is no longer Urs to make. :nonod:

U only get to decide *what happens* so long as the pup is Urs - 
the breeder can promise the sun, moon + stars, but once the pup changes hands, that means nothing. 
given the breeders track-record so far... if i were the puppy, i would not plan on seeing my 1st-birthday. 

i hope the vet is right, and this is merely a developmental blip - U saw the photos of the pups who recovered, simply with lower-protein diets, or withOUT the over-supplementation of calcium or phosphorus that was messing up skeletal growth. 
poor pup... 
--- terry


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

This must be really hard, but I would be worried that the breeder would have the pup pts and there would be nothing I could do about it. I would have to take the pup to a specialist first and find out the exact situation, but that's me....only you can decide. I wish you all the luck in the world with whatever you decide to do, but after seeing the photo of the poor pup I think I would have to try and help it.......


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## MoodyMare (Jun 15, 2009)

punkeydew said:


> Not sure if this is related, but I just got a new aussie pup. The breeder specifically told me I am not to feed her puppy food. She's 9 weeks and has been on adult food since she;s been eating solids.
> 
> The reason the breeder said was because her and quite a few aussie breeders have discovered their bones grow too fast on the puppy food and this results in a number of problems. It sounds like what might be happening to you.
> 
> ...


This was my thought too. What is the protein level of the food you are feeding your pup? I sadly lost my 9month old Great Dane following complications to correct a growth related problem, basically i was feeding a good quality puppy food that was too high in protein causing his bones to grow at a very fast rate which resulted in his problem. Before i bought another dane pup i did lots of research and a found several cases very similar to your pups (will try to find the links) however by dropping the protein level to around 19% can reverse the problem as fast as it arrived as they are such fast growing pups so i assume it would be the same for Mastiffs too as they grow so quick. Any reputable Great Dane breeder will tell you NOT to feed puppy food but to feed an ADULT food as it is lower in protein and also calcium. I maybe totally wrong about this but if he is being fed a high protein food it is just possible his problem may be reversed by immediatly lowering his protein intake but like i said i maybe totally wrong but surely it would be worth a try as you should notice any subtle changes within days of changing his diet. 
Godd luck whatever you choose to do xx


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i i said previously i've been in a similar situation as you. mine was diagnoised as "acondraplasia" . 

Check your insurance as mine wouldn't pay out for x rays , op etc as they considered the pup was born with the condition. i ended up some £2000 out of pocket (18 years ago)and to this day i'm still waiting for my replacement pup from the breeder. i never even got my money back.
I wish you all the best as you want the best for your pup.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

the breeder has already bought the eagle food for him, so i have faith in him. He will sort it out and resell the pup. He was fine with it all in the end. At first i think he was just trying to get out of taking it on. But they are normal family people, so i really think it will be fine, and by the time they sort it out if it does go within days or weeks of having puppy food etc, then the puppy will still be young enough to sell on.

I feel i have done the right thing. I always think of the worse case scenario and now i dont have to worry.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

sammykins said:


> the breeder has already bought the eagle food for him, so i have faith in him. He will sort it out and resell the pup. He was fine with it all in the end. At first i think he was just trying to get out of taking it on. But they are normal family people, so i really think it will be fine, and by the time they sort it out if it does go within days or weeks of having puppy food etc, then the puppy will still be young enough to sell on.
> 
> I feel i have done the right thing. I always think of the worse case scenario and now i dont have to worry.


That's great news the breeder is taking the pup back.
It sounds like you've done the right thing for you - and I think I would of done the same.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

sammykins said:


> the breeder has already bought the eagle food for him, so i have faith in him. He will sort it out and resell the pup. He was fine with it all in the end. At first i think he was just trying to get out of taking it on. But they are normal family people, so i really think it will be fine, and by the time they sort it out if it does go within days or weeks of having puppy food etc, then the puppy will still be young enough to sell on.
> 
> I feel i have done the right thing. I always think of the worse case scenario and now i dont have to worry.


Good news Sammikins, this is the best thing that could have happened - and glad it was sorted before you got yourself very attached to the pup. Nice to hear the breeder didnt have you running in circles too - it could have just been one of those things as you say - though youd just never know if this were infact going to be a reoccring problem throught his life. Glad the stress is off you, id hate to see a pup with abnormalities


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sammykins said:


> if i get nowhere with the breeder later tonight then i will definately see a specialist, i dont want him to suffer. But i think it was more the point that the vet wasnt alarmed and he feels it will just resolve itself, which looking at how bad he is and then reading other websites, looks like we should intervene and do something about it, whether it be diet/splints etc.
> 
> God knows how long it will take to get an appointment to see the specialist, by this time he could be alot worse. And i can imagine it will be alot of ... "wait for a couple of weeks so how he is blah blah blah", which is what the vet said today. I was the one pushing him to do something for the pup! but he was like, well if you insist i can let you see a specialist! almost makes me feel im nuerotic!
> 
> ...


i posted 1 more comments on your last thread: in any case you can take your pup to a vet-training hospital (there are six of them scattered in the UK) surely there is one at a driving distance from you. they'll see your pup straight away and they are usually cheaper (call in advance and explain the situation and get the x-rays from your vet) eventually you can ask your vet to refer you there.
they are iun Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Bristol, Cambridge, and the other i don't know but i suspect is in London.

in the meanwhile you can integrate straight away his diet accordingly to what you have found out: in principle food with less than 30% good protein from meat (not meat meals and derivatives) and the right balance of calcium/phosphorous and other minerals, with a mild supplement of vitamin D (if there isn't much sunshine)...feed him small quantities of food very often (some 6-8 small meals per day, it should already be on 4 meals now so that is not a big deal), keep your dog calm and let him rest and sleep at all time (as i said on the other thread they need good food as much they need long sleep) limit the walkies to and from his bed and the garden for a wee or poo and not allow him to jump up anywhere.

hope this helps
best
D

but probably i am too late with this post

good luck to the pup!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

Ok this is what iams puppy food contains, he also has this soaked in his puppy milk (4 times a day):

Average Analysis

Nutrient (percent) 
Crude Protein 26% 
Crude Oil 14% 
Crude Ash 6% 
Crude Fibre 3% 
Moisture 8% 
Calcium 0.8% 
Phosphorus P 0.7% 
DHA 0.1% 
Vitamin A 14,000 IU 
Vitamin D 900 IU 
Vitamin E (&#945;-tocopherol) 140 mg 
Copper as Copper II Sulphate 20 mg 

We have now ordered eagle food as this is what ive read they can have. I thought Iams would have been fine, also the vet said that the pups coat was poor quality and could be due to lack of nutrition, as he did take a test to see if he had mites etc - the results from that were clear. It does look a bit dandruffy though! if that makes sense. So not sure what thats about.

Anyway after all this madness, and after the breeder saying he would take him back, our father in law has fallen in love with him and wants to take him on! So he is here to stay! 

We shall see what happens next! he does sleep lots and lots, and doesnt jump up, we are trying to teach him to be calm! And we put him outside after his meals for toileting.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sammykins said:


> Ok this is what iams puppy food contains, he also has this soaked in his puppy milk (4 times a day):
> 
> Average Analysis
> 
> ...


please refer to your other thread, i think i have written a lot about the whole thing.

i am please that in away or another you are keeping the pup.....if you refer as well to the paper that rona posted in the other thread you'll have more information and you can discuss with an orthopaedic vet to fix the platsers to extend the tendons (he only has to wear them for a week/ 10days).

if you decide to wait and see....then strong/vigorous massages on the back of the front legs will help the tendon to relax and flex, massage vertically, very vigorously to the point of....but without hurting the pup every so often (something like every hour)...

personally i don;t like iams food, it's very expensive and of low quality, i use sneyd's wonderdogs with my pups (with only some sneyds puppy food)...but anyother good food will do. for the actual condition, at the moment i would not suggest the sneyd's one ..also...puppy milk is too rich in proteins (that you add to an already rich food) and in microminerals and other minerals....to soften the food you could just use warm water (or nice and tasty chicken broth)

as i mentioned in the other thread, to my knowledge, the condition is not permanent and if corrected in time does not require surgery and has no permanent effects...
other than that i can only wish good luck to the pup (and to you too)

best
D


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

sammykins said:


> Anyway after all this madness, and after the breeder saying he would take him back, our father in law has fallen in love with him and wants to take him on! So he is here to stay!
> 
> We shall see what happens next! he does sleep lots and lots, and doesnt jump up, we are trying to teach him to be calm! And we put him outside after his meals for toileting.


This is great news! Nobody will take care of this pup as well as you, you showed how concerned you were and your father in law has met him and seen his condition and wants to take care of him; that is a great act of love adn kindness. I am sooooo happy!!!! The general consensus is that it is a temporary condition and I am sure he will be growing up to be a wonderful dog.

There is a vet training hospital in London, The Beaumont Animals' Hospital in Camden, Royal College Street. It does work out cheaper so you can bring him there for a second opinion.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

dodigna said:


> There is a vet training hospital in London, The Beaumont Animals' Hospital in Camden, Royal College Street. It does work out cheaper so you can bring him there for a second opinion.


That's part of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.... as in MRCVS which follows most vets' names. If you can get in there I think you'll see the very best, and possibly people with prior experience of your pup's problems.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammykins said:


> ...they were apparently weaned at 3 and half weeks (im sure thats what he said) so i think they probably should be with its mum for longer. I reckon this is the problem, taken away to early, maybe your right *its important for larger breeds to suckle longer. *


OMG, *sammy! :yikes: that is frightful - 
when left to their own devices, pups are only *exploring* semi-solid food at about 5-weeks.  that #[email protected]!* _ created _ his pups problems, and IMO there were not only physical consequences. NORMAL dams do not wean their pups at 3.5-WO, ergo there is either something wrong with the dam... or she was deliberately removed from her pups at that age, which leads to multiple behavioral consequences, including poor dog-social-skills, over-attachment to humans and potential sep-anx, potential dog-reactivity or dog-aggro as adults, and many many more. :nonod: i am so, so sorry for the entire litter. 

i am horrified - this news is dreadful. Please, PLEASE - keep us apprised of the pups later development, if U get updates? 
if the future-owner is willing, ask if they would post here? 
very much concerned + upset, :crying:
--- terry


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Sammy do you mean the pups weaning began at 3 weeks -?? This is quite normal


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Whatever age this puppy weaned, something has gone wrong.

Usually the reason for growth abnormalities like this is that the puppy's legs are growing too fast for the tendons and supporting tissue to catch up. That may be through diet, or it could also be through this own puppy's individuality - perhaps this particular pup was born with a problem with absorbing certain minerals? I think it needs to be checked out, properly, professionally.


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

dodigna said:


> Did you actually raised the issue of this condition with petplan and would they be willing to continue cover if this turned out to be an ongoing condition? also if you returned the pup would petplan keep cover? If you were to move to tesco now this condition would not be covered and in fact probably anything remotely related to it, these days insurances are getting clever. If the insurance you have now covers for a specialist to see him why not give your self peace of mind knowing you have made an informed decision.


Dodigna - please see my post on sammykins first post - i advised her re insurance and to get a pre authorisation done for this condition.Doesnt seem advice has been taken.....
As you say- if you continue your policy with petplan it should be covered but YOU MUST physically speak to petplan - they are the only ones who will confirm cover,no one else.
Sammykins- If this pup is returned to the breeder- yes he will see to it- highly likely be taken to vets and put to sleep.I couldnt live with that especially without seeing a specialist.Your vet is not a specialist and yesyou need to push for a referral.Sorry if this is blunt but i really feel for this pup.
As to rehoming to a rescue eg rspca etc - they would unlikely be willing to accept the pup and even if they did would probably also PTS the pup.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

i did speak to pet plan, i got some foreign lady that could hardly speak english, she said it would be covered, so im hoping it is. You never know you speak to one person, only to be told by another that its not covered. We will take him to the specialist and im sure the insurance will cover it. To be honest the money isnt a problem it was more taking on a dog and having all the worry and going to appointments with vets, especially so soon after buying him. And also that the vet said to leave it and website said something different, i really didnt want to be going around in circles! but anyway all that aside, my father in law will take him on as he has more time for caring for him at this moment in time, and we will help out too. I have read everyones advice and have acted on bits that relate to us. The only thing i need to do is book specialist appointment tommorow and get his injections done now we decided to keep him. We ordered some food for him and thats due friday. So will see what happens.

As for weaning he said he started to wean them at 3 and half weeks (im sure) god knows, i will phone him tommorow and ask again as i will need to know all that info for specialist im sure. We bought him at 6 weeks and a few days old, he always drank his milk first then ate his food. Not sure if that means anything. 

And i wouldnt rehome a puppy, there are too many needing good homes already!. I do care for him, i was just so worried when i saw him get that bad, we were not sure what to expect for the future, so the easiest answer was to return him back to the breeder as we hadnt had him long, it seemed the most sensible thing to do as to a degree it was his responsibility!

Anyway he is with a loving home and we wont see harm come to him, he loves putting his head on my chest!! and snuggles up making little noises, cutie! he sleeps loads and loves biting our feet! and always bites hold of the bottom of our jeans and tries to run away!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I hope you will be very happy with him and that he will recover. I hope you are getting your money back though so that you have something towards vets bills etc. I dont understand people on here. Why should you keep a puppy that has something wrong with it as soon as you have bought it. there is always so much on here about the responsibility of the breeder so why the turnaround and say that the breeder shouldnt be asked to take it back.
Owning a dog should be a pleasure, not a misery, so why encourage someone to take on heartbreak and expense.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

He sounds like a very cute little puppy 

Such an awful thing to have to go through in the beginning, hopefully it really will sort itself out soon. Have you thought of taking a photo or video of his legs each day so that you can notice more if they are improving at all? 

As far as my understanding of insurance, the 'free' cover that usually comes with pups will cover them pretty well, but after the 4-6 weeks of this when the insurance is asked to be continued, it is actually classed as an entirely new policy. I just upgraded my Argos Gold to Platinum and despite being with them less than a year so before the renewal date, it was counted as a brand new policy and nothing that was treated for before will be paid out for.

I hope its not long before your boy is on the straight and narrow


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Glad to hear you have worked out something to be able to keep him and I wish you all the best for getting things sorted with him 

Something I posted last night in another part of the forum seemed pretty apt for you - part of a message someone sent to me that really made me think about things differently:

"...We don't want unhealthy dogs and will do our best to have a healthy pup - but maybe those of us who care the most about having healthy dogs are the best homes for a sick dog to be sharing their lives with."

So good on you for making arrangements so that you can keep him within the family. A brave decision to make. At least now you can be sure that he will get all the treatment he needs.


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## sporti (Dec 10, 2009)

Hi

Youre not going to like this but I went through exactly the same as you with my pup. He ended up with elbow dysplasia (operation £6,200) shoulder and hip dysplasia. Im not saying that your pup will have all those things wrong but he sure looks like he has elbow dysplasia plus a problem with his g rowth plates. As someone who has been through what you are about to go through as he grows I would not recommend an operation. The confinement is far too much for large breed dogs. If you have decided to keep him I would have him re x rayed in 6 weeks and if no improvement send him back to the breeder. Harsh I know but I wouldnt wish anyone to go through what we did and we were just trying to do the best for our pup as you think you are doing. In fact forget the x rays get him MRI scanned then you will get to know everything going on within his joints.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I hope you will be very happy with him and that he will recover. I hope you are getting your money back though so that you have something towards vets bills etc. I dont understand people on here. Why should you keep a puppy that has something wrong with it as soon as you have bought it. there is always so much on here about the responsibility of the breeder so why the turnaround and say that the breeder shouldnt be asked to take it back.
> Owning a dog should be a pleasure, not a misery, so why encourage someone to take on heartbreak and expense.


I agree with this. When someone comes onto the forum for advice on getting a puppy, we all advice on finding the best breeder, getting from health tested parents and making sure that the puppy is healthy from a vet check. So why, when someone has bought a puppy and something is wrong with it, we say keep it? Shouldn't we be promoting responsible breeding and ownership, by returning the puppy and advising the owner to find a responsible breeder and a healthy puppy from health tested parent? Sorry I just don't understand.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I agree with this. When someone comes onto the forum for advice on getting a puppy, we all advice on finding the best breeder, getting from health tested parents and making sure that the puppy is healthy from a vet check. So why, when someone has bought a puppy and something is wrong with it, we say keep it? Shouldn't we be promoting responsible breeding and ownership, by returning the puppy and advising the owner to find a responsible breeder and a healthy puppy from health tested parent? Sorry I just don't understand.


I agree to an extent - if people continue to buy from bad breeders with no problems for the breeder (i.e. a returned unhealthy pup for refund), they will continue to breed...simple. So if more people did insist on money back etc, it would become unprofitable for them to breed unhealthy pups and then they may stop.

However, on the other side of the coin, in most instances, if the pups are returned to a bad breeder, what life would it have? And so people feel that they should keep the pup and provide the best life they can for it, as they are able to...

I would never have taken maggie back (if anything had happened), I couldnt...but then I was fortunate enough to have researched it thoroughly before hand, visited the breeder, saw all her dogs, met the dad, etc etc...she is one of the 'good' breeders...but of course it still doesnt prevent something unforseen from happening...


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I agree with this. When someone comes onto the forum for advice on getting a puppy, we all advice on finding the best breeder, getting from health tested parents and making sure that the puppy is healthy from a vet check. So why, when someone has bought a puppy and something is wrong with it, we say keep it? Shouldn't we be promoting responsible breeding and ownership, by returning the puppy and advising the owner to find a responsible breeder and a healthy puppy from health tested parent? Sorry I just don't understand.


I totally agree on asking for the money back, as per telling the OP he shouldn't ask the breeder to take the pup back, I don't think anybody said this; what was pointed at was that the breeder did not sound very caring towards the pup and was obviously of the non reputable kind and that there would be a strong chance he would have resolved to simply put the dog to sleep.
I don't think anybody would have passed any judgment whether the OP gave the dog back or kept him, people merely stated that the condition might not be serious after all and to try see a specialist first. It is a very personal decision. You can point people in the direction of getting a pup from a reputable breeder, but there will always be non-reputable ones putting unhealthy pups out for sale, many end in rescues or pts, all still deserve some body to care for and love them.
Personally I am glad the OP is keeping the pup within the family and I, like him, could have not given him up. Some take longer to bond, some take a few days, we are all different and will not judge, if you could have given the pup up returning it to a dubious home well I would like to think it is easier said then done, I know I would have had trouble treating a dog like any purchase.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The problem is, we often come to forums like this one AFTER buying our pup or at least after choosing it. I wish I had read all about puppy farms and bad breeders etc before I got Hedley rather than after. We had such a time finding a Yorkie round here that when we finally rang someone up who said they had one left we sort of thought, right, we're in. I didnt see his parents and all that either, but thats another story and I became slightly suspicious about his breeder, but that is because of something we found out afterwards. Fortunately, as far as me know, Hedley is fine.

So the general public needs a little more advice before searching for their pups but most of all greater regulation and control over breeding of dogs should be put in place. Once people see a pup and fall in love with it, thats it, its all too late. I wouldnt have parted with Hedley once I had had a little cuddle!


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> The problem is, we often come to forums like this one AFTER buying our pup or at least after choosing it. I wish I had read all about puppy farms and bad breeders etc before I got Hedley rather than after. We had such a time finding a Yorkie round here that when we finally rang someone up who said they had one left we sort of thought, right, we're in. I didnt see his parents and all that either, but thats another story and I became slightly suspicious about his breeder, but that is because of something we found out afterwards. Fortunately, as far as me know, Hedley is fine.
> 
> So the general public needs a little more advice before searching for their pups but most of all greater regulation and control over breeding of dogs should be put in place. Once people see a pup and fall in love with it, thats it, its all too late. I wouldnt have parted with Hedley once I had had a little cuddle!


It is very true, many people simply can't walk away from pups after seeing the conditions they are kept. Really, there should be a way of reporting BYB and puppy farmers and have some very strict regulations about breeding and a dedicated panel to investigate complaints like in this very case where the pup's condition could have been caused by too early whining or mum being over bred from.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

thanks for all your comments, i have been videoing him to see for improvement, and i did think it was elbow dysplasia but there were too many things pointing towards knuckling, and i hope it is just that.

The breeder hasnt given us any money - he did offer to take the dog back for a few weeks to change his food etc and get him better, he did say if he wasnt better then he would refund us. But to be honest my father in law wouldnt want that (i would be tempted though - lol) also with toileting etc it wouldnt be fair as we are training him to go outside.

But what my father in law would do and what i would do are 2 different things! but there you go! 

I hope they dont try and charge more if they look at it as a seperate insurance when you go from the free 4 weeks to the annual policy, (they always sting you somewhere along the lines) But i suppose its worth getting the insurance, at least then we can see specialists etc and not have to pay anymore than the excess.

Anyway im off on my holiday this eve so will be back to chat on sun eve! Its a very friendly forum here and its given me alot of help and comfort in our situation, its good to talk to others about problems, so cheers guys x


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Hi Sammykins thast fab news glad things are working out - just a bit of advice make sure you get what petplan said in writing!Ask them to send something in black and white stating that this condition will be covered for life as long as the policy is maintained- make sure you cover your back!Its all great saying money isnt an issue but when your landed with a £2000 bill it may be a different story!Good luck and have a fab holiday!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

dinks said:


> Hi Sammykins thast fab news glad things are working out - just a bit of advice make sure you get what petplan said in writing!Ask them to send something in black and white stating that this condition will be covered for life as long as the policy is maintained- make sure you cover your back!Its all great saying money isnt an issue but when your landed with a £2000 bill it may be a different story!Good luck and have a fab holiday!


Good point i wouldnt take anything as red what they say because when the time comes and its big money it can be a whole lot different, this happened to me and i hadnt got it in writing, so yes good thing to make sammy aware of.


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Exactly!This is why i had mentioned about doing the pre authorisation claim - so basically the vet fills out the claim form with the expected costs then sends it off to petplan and then petplan get back to the vet and tell them if the condition,illness,accident will be covered.This can be done within 24hrs as well for emergencies - we use this service all the time at work - o and petplan arnt the only ones the do it however there are a few that dont!
Its great especially for elective procedures ie not emergencies as you will know if you are goiing to get your money back or not.They can not go back on this once they have given the go ahead for treatment either.Just wish more people knew about it!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

dinks said:


> Exactly!This is why i had mentioned about doing the *pre authorisation* claim -
> --snip--
> *Just wish more people knew about it!*


Well I didn't... but I do now  Thanks for this tip - it could be a lifesaver.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

when i phoned pet plan i named the condition and asked if it was covered, she kept having to speak to someone else (really getting on my nerves, i did say can you put me on to this "other person" as they seem to know alot more than you! anyway i did say it wasnt an illness or an accident it was a developmental problem. She did ask the underwriter and they said it was covered (in the 4 weeks insurance) ok i will phone them again and get it in writing to make sure for the annual policy.

Thanks for all your help,


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

sammykins said:


> .....ok i will phone them again and get it in writing to make sure for the annual policy.


Please do.... the people on the end of the phone are in a huge call centre - probably a mile away from me, as I knew someone who applied to work for them, they aren't experts and can only say what they have been told to say... more difficult enquiries will have to go through a manager, so do get it in writing! Sometimes writing yourself to head office can do more than going through a call centre, as they _have_ to reply and it will be bypassing the call centre.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> The problem is, *(puppy-buyers) often come to forums like this one AFTER buying our pup or at least after choosing it. I wish I had read all about puppy farms and bad breeders etc before I got Hedley rather than after.* [snip]... I didnt see his parents and all that either... I became slightly suspicious (of) his breeder... because of something we found out afterwards. [snip]
> 
> So *the general public needs a little more advice before searching for their pups* but most of all greater regulation and control over breeding of dogs should be put in place. _*Once people see a pup and fall in love with it, thats it, its all too late. I wouldnt have parted with Hedley once I had had a little cuddle! *_


not to be a monster about it... and alyson, i am not directing this at U, personally - 
just at puppy-buyers in general... 
but _the information about unethical breeders, unhealthy pups, the heritability of poor temps (timid dams, aggro behavior, etc)... genetic screening, what tests for which breed, etc, etc, etc, etc... 
has ALL been available and heavily distributed for at least the past 20-years. _

how much more *education* can trainers, vets, and humane organizations get out there!?

IMO + IME - pup-buyers do not want to hear it, *until* THEIR puppy has cr*p knees, a heart-defect, 
becomes highly-aggro at puberty (just like daddy ), or is otherwise affected. 
THEN - pup-buyers say, _Why didn;t U tell me?_ 
we *have* been telling them, over + over - and ignored, over + over. :nonod:

U have no idea how frustrating it is to say these things, over + bloody over, and know that it is completely ignored 
by 99.99% of puppy-buyers.  i keep saying it - they keep buying some BYB designer-hybrid, with no screening whatever + overpriced to boot, or reserve a pup from a litter that has ZERO health-tests on either parent, or take home a 6-WO pup and WHINE that the poor baby cries when alone, and is not housetrained by EIGHT-WEEKS age...  and so on. 
the Internet means that this information is googleable - 
how to buy a healthy puppy - Google Search

*short of having every prospective puppy-buyer take a course and a test over the Net, 
and have a certificate to PROVE that they took it + passed the test, in order to buy a pup legally - 
what do we do to make sure that pup-buyers get the info, and listen?*

after 30 years of humane-education, i am beyond frustrated - 
as P T Barnum said, _theres a sucker born every minute._ he was right... but by now, 
i think that >> *I* << am the sucker, _wasting my time talking to willfully deaf and blind-by-choice consumers._ 
is there a solution, and if so... WHAT is it?

bear in mind that dog-owners who join on-line dog-Forums are already Self-Selected + more evolved than non-members, too. 
frustrated, 
--- terry


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

I agree Terry - the information is all there if you look for it...

edit: I have removed the rest of my post to discuss in the new tread opened by leashed in Dogs Chat, so as not to detract from OPs thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat...we-get-buyers-practice-being-responsible.html


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> I agree Terry - the information is all there if you look for it...


Whoah. THIS thread is about helping someone who has a very seriously affected puppy.

I think that anyone reading this thread may have already made their own minds up.

I for one want to help the original poster if I possibly can, in this predicament, whatever the outcome. We have heard it all, from puppy first having symptoms, through vets, through insurance, through speaking to the breeder... This pup is going to have care and support.... End Of.

If we feel the need to go further and discuss ethics, then a new thread would be most appropriate right now. This is Sammikins thread.... and the pup who needs help, and got it thanks to us. That's enough, surely?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> If we feel the need to go further and discuss ethics, then a new thread would be most appropriate right now.


this is not so much ethics, as Why doesn;t education make a change in pet-owners real-life choices?

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - puppy-buying: How do we get buyers to *practice* being responsible?

all my best, 
--- terry


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## sporti (Dec 10, 2009)

Has anybody stopped and asked the question..............Is this puppy in pain?? Does he hurt everytime he takes a step on those paws?? Anyone thought about that?????????????? I presume, at the very least, he is on pain killers. Ive read about insurance worries and who the pup is going to be passed on to but has anyone taken a step back - taken a deep breath and thought is this pup in any pain??


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

He is not in pain as he doesn't cry or yelp. I would imagine he might ache but the vet didn't give anything for pain, I'm sure they would of given some to make a few more pound! Will soon see specialist to find out more. If you look up the condition it doesn't mention they are in pain either. Will keep you updated


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## love_my_pets (Feb 2, 2010)

Hey, just wondered if there is anymore news on this pup?x


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

sporti said:


> Hi
> 
> Youre not going to like this but I went through exactly the same as you with my pup. He ended up with elbow dysplasia (operation £6,200) shoulder and hip dysplasia. Im not saying that your pup will have all those things wrong but he sure looks like he has elbow dysplasia plus a problem with his g rowth plates. As someone who has been through what you are about to go through as he grows I would not recommend an operation. The confinement is far too much for large breed dogs. If you have decided to keep him I would have him re x rayed in 6 weeks and if no improvement send him back to the breeder. Harsh I know but I wouldnt wish anyone to go through what we did and we were just trying to do the best for our pup as you think you are doing. In fact forget the x rays get him MRI scanned then you will get to know everything going on within his joints.


How is your dog recovering from his op? I noticed you advice against here? What is fitzpatrick saying about his progress?
By the way ED doesn't show like this, did yours resembled this pup?


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

love_my_pets said:


> Hey, just wondered if there is anymore news on this pup?x


The OP is away, father in law was going to adopt the pup, hopefully when they come back we will get some updates.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

sporti said:


> Has anybody stopped and asked the question..............Is this puppy in pain?? Does he hurt everytime he takes a step on those paws?? Anyone thought about that?????????????? I presume, at the very least, he is on pain killers. Ive read about insurance worries and who the pup is going to be passed on to but has anyone taken a step back - taken a deep breath and thought is this pup in any pain??


yes i did, well more of aching tight muscles than pain and i suggest the owner takes 5 minutes out to massage the pups poor legs... think it was in the other thread, cant remember tho

and if i didnt write that I was thinking about writing it lol

would be good to hear of further updates when sammykins can get round to it


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

just a quick update, went to see the pup today (only got back late last night) and he seems a bit stronger on his feet, his wrist area still bend in a weird position but they dont turn out to the side until he gets really tired on walking on them. (which is longer than last week) still not right though! his food came today so we shall see what happens, meanwhile im booking him to get his injections done and making an appointment for specialist tommorow! at least it hasnt got worse than last week! which is one good thing. I have been trying to massage his legs,but he loves to chew my hands and it really hurts!! lol


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## sporti (Dec 10, 2009)

dodigna said:


> How is your dog recovering from his op? I noticed you advice against here? What is fitzpatrick saying about his progress?
> By the way ED doesn't show like this, did yours resembled this pup?


Hi Sammykins

Glad to hear you think the pup is improving. Hope it continues. I stand by what I said about operations but your pup has something different so maybe he wouldnt be confined for 12 -16 weeks. My pup did make progress but since he has grown such a hell of a lot there is now no progress. Hope these answer your questions Dodigna.


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## love_my_pets (Feb 2, 2010)

Hey Sammykins, 

I just wondered how your pup is doing now? What was the outcome? I've been offline for a while now due to no internet but have been wondering how your poor lil pup is! x


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2010)

bump:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DT, 
why are U reviving 2 threads which have not been updated since the 3rd week of February?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> DT,
> why are U reviving 2 threads which have not been updated since the 3rd week of February?


See http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-rescue-adoption/116517-32-week-dogue-de-bordeux-x-nepolitan-mastiff-needs-home.html
- it's a truly depressing read


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> See http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-rescue-adoption/116517-32-week-dogue-de-bordeux-x-nepolitan-mastiff-needs-home.html
> - it's a truly depressing read


i agree- extremely depressing - :thumbdown: and un-necessary, too IMO.


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