# FREE dog behaviour advice in the Midlands!



## julia1980 (Jan 15, 2009)

Calling all Yorkshire & Midlands dog owners! FREE BEHAVIOUR CONSULTATIONS!
Please contact me if you need assistance with any behaviour issues that you may have with your dog(s). I am always looking for dog owners that are in need of assistance in order to practically assess Dog Behaviour Practitioner students. Please speak up as there are free consultations in the offing! 
I operate a waiting list for both areas, but I have availability of Midlands appointments right now so if you want some top notch advice then let me know. All details can be found here;
https://www.facebook.com/balancebehaviourmodification
Balance Behaviour Modification - Flash Intro

Julia X


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

julia1980 said:


> Calling all Yorkshire & Midlands dog owners! FREE BEHAVIOUR CONSULTATIONS!
> Please contact me if you need assistance with any behaviour issues that you may have with your dog(s). I am always looking for dog owners that are in need of assistance in order to practically assess Dog Behaviour Practitioner students. Please speak up as there are free consultations in the offing!
> I operate a waiting list for both areas, but I have availability of Midlands appointments right now so if you want some top notch advice then let me know. All details can be found here;
> https://www.facebook.com/balancebehaviourmodification
> ...


your fb page has no website link
so we dont have much info to go on re your organisation


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Click the link below the Facebook link, that works.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2014)

julia1980 said:


> Calling all Yorkshire & Midlands dog owners! FREE BEHAVIOUR CONSULTATIONS!
> Please contact me if you need assistance with any behaviour issues that you may have with your dog(s). I am always looking for dog owners that are in need of assistance in order to practically assess Dog Behaviour Practitioner students. Please speak up as there are free consultations in the offing!
> I operate a waiting list for both areas, but I have availability of Midlands appointments right now so if you want some top notch advice then let me know. All details can be found here;
> https://www.facebook.com/balancebehaviourmodification
> ...


Thats very generous of you. Your website says you are a fully qualified canine behavior practitioner but it doesnt say what your qualifications are. Coursework, certifications, seminars attended?


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## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

Would like organise a socialisation group near me but not sure the best way to go about it.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Thats very generous of you. Your website says you are a fully qualified canine behavior practitioner but it doesnt say what your qualifications are. Coursework, certifications, seminars attended?


CFBA

have read website now, seems ok


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I would advise anyone thinking of consulting a `behaviourist` to ask for qualifications first, then experience, and references. 
I would like to point out that you have advised very badly on this forum - I quote your response...

_ it is MUCH kinder to give a very quick correction a dozen times to teach relaxed walking than to have your dog pull constantly which could possibly cause permanent windpipe damage in some breeds. Dogs react better to a quick surprising correction, it is a more natural way of learning, if you've ever watched a mother with her pups you'll know what I mean. Don't worry about hurting your dog, _

So yanking a dog around is the way to train loose lead walking? 
I think I`ll stick to modern methods thanks.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2014)

Amazing how many people think leash jerking is a form of training.


I have personally witnessed trainers using this method and its about as effective as a chocolate tea pot. I have also seen the same trainer advising owners to torment their dogs into obedience. He also boards dogs and cat sits and has some very good references all though I think their made up.

My biggest surprise was that the trainer I went to has been reported to the RSPCA before for his harsh handling and the even more worrying factor is that he is growing in popularity some of his weekend classes have ten or more members and he shows a lack of knowledge on dog behaviour that I picked up on. I'm sure the owners who attend his classes would say he's brilliant my point being that refrences do not count for much.

Theirs another cheap trainer at my local park I was going to go to who has no qualifications and likes to yank the leash as well. He failed to show up when it looked like rain and the group attending was small so cancled at the last minute has posted some of his methods on his facebook page again the people who attend his class happy to give him a refrence.

Just goes to show how people do not care how their dog is trained.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> CFBA
> 
> have read website now, seems ok


Associate member of CFBA. Do you know what the requirements of membership are? I dont thats why I ask. Here in the US there are many organizations that you can send a check to and get membership - no requirements other than your check cashing.

As for the website seeming okay....


> I do subscribe to theories of pack structure and dominance/submission, but also appreciate that there is a huge difference between the importance this holds for different breeds and individuals. I am neither bound to the archaic and trust destroying methods employed in the past, or the 'reward only' appeasement society theorists of the moment.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I would advise anyone thinking of consulting a `behaviourist` to ask for qualifications first, then experience, and references.
> I would like to point out that you have advised very badly on this forum - I quote your response...
> 
> _ it is MUCH kinder to give a very quick correction a dozen times to teach relaxed walking than to have your dog pull constantly which could possibly cause permanent windpipe damage in some breeds. Dogs react better to a quick surprising correction, it is a more natural way of learning, if you've ever watched a mother with her pups you'll know what I mean. Don't worry about hurting your dog, _
> ...


What she said!


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Associate member of CFBA. Do you know what the requirements of membership are? I don't that's why I ask. Here in the US there are many organizations that you can send a check to and get membership - no requirements other than your check cashing.
> 
> As for the website seeming okay....


know of this organisation.
you cant just pay and join.
runs courses.

website seems ok, quote not all that bad, good and bad phrases, seen way worse.
i dont know the lady, i wouldnt judge, im keeping out of that side of the discussion


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

The CFBA appears to be the same people who run the Cambridge Institute (and as such you HAVE to take their courses to become a member, which means it's not an independant organisation), and does claim to only accept veterinary referrals.

So advertising even for non-fee paying clients on a forum appears to break their code of ethics...


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Oh goodness, someone is trying to offer help for free and they get picked about and scrutinized. There are ways of asking questions, there are ways of gleaning information, sadly, they have not been demonstrated here. I doubt very much if the OP will ever come back and offer these services again.

I can see where some posters are indeed coming from but really? do people feel they _HAVE_ to be that aggressive? Such a shame.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

BoredomBusters said:


> The CFBA appears to be the same people who run the Cambridge Institute (and as such you HAVE to take their courses to become a member, which means it's not an independant organisation), and does claim to only accept veterinary referrals.
> 
> So advertising even for non-fee paying clients on a forum appears to break their code of ethics...


re your first paragraph, that is correct
but i think that is correct of nearly all the organisations

not too sure they have a rule saying they can only take clients thru a vet?


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> re your first paragraph, that is correct
> but i think that is correct of nearly all the organisations
> 
> not too sure they have a rule saying they can only take clients thru a vet?


Most of the other organisations you can join if you meet their criteria. Some may be like this one and insist you have done their own courses, but others are not like this. I think an organisation that doesn't make this part of their criteria would be better.

It's on a couple of different places on the website - you're right it could be seen as ambiguous, but vet referral is an essential part of a behaviour consult - there are certain medical conditions that can affect behaviour and ideally would be ruled out before any behaviour modification is attempted.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

8tansox said:


> Oh goodness, someone is trying to offer help for free and they get picked about and scrutinized. There are ways of asking questions, there are ways of gleaning information, sadly, they have not been demonstrated here. I doubt very much if the OP will ever come back and offer these services again.
> 
> I can see where some posters are indeed coming from but really? do people feel they _HAVE_ to be that aggressive? Such a shame.


I can't see a problem with discussing organisations and qualifications of anyone on this site. Just because something is free doesn't mean we should accept things as they are. Personally, all the training I was given was that giving out free services would mean owners would value them as they paid for them - nothing! And then your reputation suffers as people are more likely to ignore free advice, then complain things don't work.

Nobody has pointed a finger and said GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN... Just discussed, as we always tell people, what qualifications any trainer/behaviourist might or should have.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Some posters always come over as being really aggressive and woe betide anyone who offers anything if they're "not" qualified. Puts lots of us off reading and coming on here these days. There are ways of dealing with people, no matter what they're giving away or selling. Same in other sections to, not just DC. There is a subtle skill in obtaining information without the need to be rude.

I think the general "tone" of this thread is aggressive, but it's just my opinion. One of the reasons I rarely post these days, discussions can and often do end up being argued and debated to the death and no-one learns anything, unless of course they are prepared to wade through pages and pages of arguments.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2014)

8tansox said:


> Some posters always come over as being really aggressive and woe betide anyone who offers anything if they're "not" qualified. Puts lots of us off reading and coming on here these days. There are ways of dealing with people, no matter what they're giving away or selling. Same in other sections to, not just DC. There is a subtle skill in obtaining information without the need to be rude.
> 
> I think the general "tone" of this thread is aggressive, but it's just my opinion. One of the reasons I rarely post these days, discussions can and often do end up being argued and debated to the death and no-one learns anything, unless of course they are prepared to wade through pages and pages of arguments.


Bairing the brunt of many arguements and come out alive and well I have read through this discussion and no one has come out as aggresive simply put in their views as profresionals and experienced owners shairing useful advice.

Nice to see a peacefull discussion for once :>


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

BoredomBusters said:


> Most of the other organisations you can join if you meet their criteria. Some may be like this one and insist you have done their own courses, but others are not like this. I think an organisation that doesn't make this part of their criteria would be better.
> 
> It's on a couple of different places on the website - you're right it could be seen as ambiguous, but vet referral is an essential part of a behaviour consult - there are certain medical conditions that can affect behaviour and ideally would be ruled out before any behaviour modification is attempted.


yes, you are right, its probably about 50-50

having said that i dont think that if the joining criteria for an organisation is that you have to do their courses is necessarily a problem, not in the sense that is the only overriding criteria.
for example, COAPE membership is done in this fashion, so i guess you could question if they are 'independent' to?

but whats 'independent' or 'qualified' in this field anyway?

lots of people say look for 'qualifications', experience, and referrals/testimonials.
the website of the lady that started this thread appears to detail all of those


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> yes, you are right, its probably about 50-50
> 
> having said that i dont think that if the joining criteria for an organisation is that you have to do their courses is necessarily a problem, not in the sense that is the only overriding criteria.
> for example, COAPE membership is done in this fashion, so i guess you could question if they are 'independent' to?
> ...


I never thought of COAPE as an independant organisation anyway, merely a membership of people who have done their courses. I am with the KCAI who has some 'Preferred Education Providers' but you are free to learn where and with who you like - then they assess your knowledge and experience. So I guess I would prefer that style. 

But I get your point, if someone was with COAPE I would not have a problem with someone being a member, in the same way I did with this one....


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2014)

8tansox said:


> Some posters always come over as being really aggressive and woe betide anyone who offers anything if they're "not" qualified. Puts lots of us off reading and coming on here these days. There are ways of dealing with people, no matter what they're giving away or selling. Same in other sections to, not just DC. There is a subtle skill in obtaining information without the need to be rude.
> 
> I think the general "tone" of this thread is aggressive, but it's just my opinion. One of the reasons I rarely post these days, discussions can and often do end up being argued and debated to the death and no-one learns anything, unless of course they are prepared to wade through pages and pages of arguments.


I get what you're saying 8tansox, but reprimanding members rarely goes over well - just gets people's back up and doesn't really promote calmness or niceness. (PR works on people too ). 
If you find a post really out of line, simply report it. Or just PM a mod and ask them to look over the thread?

You know, the other thing is, that by pointing out the negativity, you give it more life. Maybe instead of highlighting the negativity, you could simply lead by example. Ignore the meanies, and reach out to the OP, make them feel welcome, and give them some good advice - you're an experienced trainer, maybe you could help the OP network? (BTW, OP is not a newbie.)

IDK... I was treated pretty darned poorly when I first joined by seasoned members, I stayed out of general chat for years because I found it so mean spirited. I don't recall anyone reaching out to me, and it sure would have been nice. Granted some of the nastier stuff was in PM's... You'd be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't. This thread is pretty tame IMO. 
But either way, things are what we make of them.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Hardly reprimanding members. Not my style, however, if certain members think I'm reprimanding them, I can't be held responsible for their thoughts now can I?


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Balance behaviour correction technique is one where both positive and negative reinforcement are used....to see the application of this go to YouTube... Tyler Muto, one of US's best known exponents of this 'holistic' approach.
Draw your own conclusions after seeing his work with prong collars, particularly the vid where he is 'teaching' a small, staffie type dog to walk on lead.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Linda Weasel said:


> Balance behaviour correction technique is one where both positive and negative reinforcement are used....to see the application of this go to YouTube... Tyler Muto, one of US's best known exponents of this 'holistic' approach.
> Draw your own conclusions after seeing his work with* prong collars,* particularly the vid where he is 'teaching' a small, staffie type dog to walk on lead.


Many thanks for the info 

Personally I am totally against prong collars and from the way you describe the 'teaching' I get what you're saying I think


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Linda Weasel said:


> Balance behaviour correction technique is one where both positive and negative reinforcement are used....to see the application of this go to YouTube... Tyler Muto, one of US's best known exponents of this 'holistic' approach.
> Draw your own conclusions after seeing his work with prong collars, particularly the vid where he is 'teaching' a small, staffie type dog to walk on lead.


Tyler Muto also wrote this gem:
A Silent Killer - K9 Connection
(yep you read that right - humane euthanasia for behavioral reasons = murder in his world.)

That said, Tyler Muto does not represent anyone but himself.


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## julia1980 (Jan 15, 2009)

I am removing myself from the forum tonight. For anyone who is interested I only ever try to do what is best for the individual dog. I am what is termed 'moderate' in the field; my standpoint is an open minded one, I avoid extremes either way and I never ever use a 'blueprint' approach. Every dog is different and I try to treat them as such. I don't want to get drawn into a debate about this so I wont be back after tonight.
I am proud of my work and all the dogs and owners that I have helped and I do continue to evolve and study as I gain more knowledge and experience, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong and I always refer on if I lack the experience to tackle a particular case. 
I will never stop learning and I will never stop trying to help the dogs that I meet either through my work or through the charities that I assist. My ultimate goal is to prevent as many dogs being relinquished to welfare for behavioural reasons as possible and it is all about the dogs not about the money. I do take referrals from vets, charities and colleges and advise on owner training and environmental enrichment for kennelled welfare dogs. I am disappointed that I have posted in order to invite people who would not ordinarily be able to afford a good behaviourist to get high quality help (there are a lot of terrible behaviour practitioners out there but I'm not one of them)and have been bitterly attacked. For the record I am very, very good at my job and am always inundated with work, the majority of which is through word of mouth. You should not judge me because you know nothing about me, my motivations or my methods. 
This is yet another illustration of the biggest problem in this field; The 'us' and 'them' attitudes and the huge divide between the 'reward only' appeasement theorists and the trust destroying 'alpha pack' brigade. I am proud to stand with a foot firmly in both camps and avoid the extremes because both theories have elements of worth and merit and to adhere to one extreme or the other blindly is to do a disservice to at least some of the dogs that need help. I often feel attacked from both 'camps' but I wont compromise my dog centred approach to please anybody. Read some books and learn about all the relevant theories, look at the studies and make your own mind up on how you approach behaviour but don't decry others methods because they do not fit with your own. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Julia
PS You shouldn't really slate the CFBA either, they do a marvellous job of regulating the industry, provide expert witnesses to the courts and educate all over the country. The membership criteria is extremely strict indeed...why they got dragged into this goodness only knows....


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## julia1980 (Jan 15, 2009)

adjective: *holistic*

1.
characterized by the belief that the parts of something are intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole.
Medicine
characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the symptoms of a disease.

That's the definition of holistic by the way. In terms of behaviour it means using behavioural diagnostics and functional analysis to find the emotional route of the behaviour and suggest a behaviour plan considering every part of the dog's history and lifestyle.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

julia1980 said:


> I am removing myself from the forum tonight. For anyone who is interested I only ever try to do what is best for the individual dog. I am what is termed 'moderate' in the field; my standpoint is an open minded one, I avoid extremes either way and I never ever use a 'blueprint' approach. Every dog is different and I try to treat them as such. I don't want to get drawn into a debate about this so I wont be back after tonight.
> I am proud of my work and all the dogs and owners that I have helped and I do continue to evolve and study as I gain more knowledge and experience, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong and I always refer on if I lack the experience to tackle a particular case.
> I will never stop learning and I will never stop trying to help the dogs that I meet either through my work or through the charities that I assist. My ultimate goal is to prevent as many dogs being relinquished to welfare for behavioural reasons as possible and it is all about the dogs not about the money. I do take referrals from vets, charities and colleges and advise on owner training and environmental enrichment for kennelled welfare dogs. I am disappointed that I have posted in order to invite people who would not ordinarily be able to afford a good behaviourist to get high quality help (there are a lot of terrible behaviour practitioners out there but I'm not one of them)and have been bitterly attacked. For the record I am very, very good at my job and am always inundated with work, the majority of which is through word of mouth. You should not judge me because you know nothing about me, my motivations or my methods.
> This is yet another illustration of the biggest problem in this field; The 'us' and 'them' attitudes and the huge divide between the 'reward only' *appeasement* theorists and the trust destroying 'alpha pack' brigade. I am proud to stand with a foot firmly in both camps and avoid the extremes because both theories have elements of worth and merit and to adhere to one extreme or the other blindly is to do a disservice to at least some of the dogs that need help. I often feel attacked from both 'camps' but I wont compromise my dog centred approach to please anybody. Read some books and learn about all the relevant theories, look at the studies and make your own mind up on how you approach behaviour but don't decry others methods because they do not fit with your own. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
> ...


I don't think anyone here uses 'appeasement' - being a positive, force free trainer is not about 'appeasement'.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

This was an ideal opportunity to expand on "me, my motives and my methods". That's what a forum is about and I would hope that everybody here would have an open enough mind to evaluate these on their merit. Sadly, J, you bottled it.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

julia1980 said:


> You should not judge me because you know nothing about me, my motivations or my methods.


No. But that's part of the problem isn't it? People wanted to know more about you, your motivations and methods especially as you are advertising yourself to provide a service, albeit a free one in this case. That's what much of this thread has been about in my view.

I was confused by your first post as I wasn't sure if you were offering consultations in the form of you supervising student practitioners who would do the consultations, or if you yourself were offering to do them. That then made me wonder why you would offer to do work for free when you are fully qualified and clearly, as you say, inundated with work.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I've just come to this thread, and I'm disappointed that Julia didn't stay around to respond to some of the critisism. In fact, it seemed to me that Julia did not respond at all, other than her opening and final post!


I would have genuinely liked to have heard more about her methods as it sometimes seems to me that there should always be opportunities to discuss these things. Julia said in her website that she keeps up with advances in canine behaviour research and is not afraid to change her views in light of new developments and research, so it could have made for some interesting discussion.


A missed opportunity


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I've just come to this thread, and I'm disappointed that Julia didn't stay around to respond to some of the critisism. In fact, it seemed to me that Julia did not respond at all, other than her opening and final post!
> 
> I would have genuinely liked to have heard more about her methods as it sometimes seems to me that there should always be opportunities to discuss these things. Julia said in her website that she keeps up with advances in canine behaviour research and is not afraid to change her views in light of new developments and research, so it could have made for some interesting discussion.
> 
> A missed opportunity


not really

its just politics.....shes right about the them and us mentality that pops up in some places in the dog training world......if she engaged a discussion its inevitable she will get popped at, maybe she just has better things to do?

im sure she has her personal development and learning from others angles covered anyway. she came, she tried, didnt work for her, she explained why, end of. no loss for anyone, plenty of life and opportunity left for her and any of us outside of a an internet forum, if we should so choose.

i guess anyone genuinely interested in what shes about can contact her directly?


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

julia1980 said:


> PS You shouldn't really slate the CFBA either, they do a marvellous job of regulating the industry, provide expert witnesses to the courts and educate all over the country. The membership criteria is extremely strict indeed...why they got dragged into this goodness only knows....


Having had dealings with the Cambridge Institute which are the same people then I guess I feel I can make comments based on those dealings.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> not really
> 
> its just politics.....shes right about the them and us mentality that pops up in some places in the dog training world......if she engaged a discussion its inevitable she will get popped at, maybe she just has better things to do?
> 
> ...


She didn't discuss anything as far as I can see. Surely if she is confident in her methods (which I know nothing about) she should be happy to share them.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> She didn't discuss anything as far as I can see. Surely if she is confident in her methods (which I know nothing about) she should be happy to share them.


Why? Its only a chat forum.
At the end of the day, most people in the world dont use them, so dont define their belief in themselves in any way by participation on a chat forum.
If she feels people have been unfair to her - as she wrote in her leaving post - why would she want to be here?
Say, for example, you were a member of a social club where you felt you werent welcome or accepted, you might just well say, sod it then, what do I need to go back there for?
That would be quite normal really, most people would say that. 
Same goes for on here?

And if she had started discussing her methods, some people would have inevitably got all political with her (it had already begun a little bit on this thread), and taken it too far

At the end of the day, apparently she is doing well, apparently very established, apparently gets many referrals from vets and other organisations? So what does she need this place for, especially if she doesn't like it?

(Not speaking for myself, btw)

If you are really particularly interested yourself in what she does, I'm sure she wouldnt mind if you contracted her thru her website? That's my guess, anyway?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> At the end of the day, apparently she is doing well, apparently very established, apparently gets many referrals from vets and other organisations? So what does she need this place for, especially if she doesn't like it?


So, why did she start a thread here then?

It's like stating that you have a super new technique for helping dogs overcome fear of fireworks, but hen refusing to discuss or explain it.
And get all huffy if anyone asks!


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> So, why did she start a thread here then?
> 
> It's like stating that you have a super new technique for helping dogs overcome fear of fireworks, but hen refusing to discuss or explain it.
> And get all huffy if anyone asks!


thought that was obvious

firstly she was a member, she has made other posts before and now she started a thread - just like everyone else on here does.

secondly she said why she started the thread; apart from it being in the title, it was also in the post!

not too sure what your analogy has to do with it 

tbh, dont really understand why are you so bothered just cause someone doesnt want to be on here? as i said, if you are genuinely concerned because you didnt get the chance to find out what her methods are, why dont you just contact her and ask? There's quite a bit of info on her site


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

If you don't understand my analogy, I'm afraid I can't help you.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> If you don't understand my analogy, I'm afraid I can't help you.


why are you so preoccupied just cause someone left :001_unsure:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Why do you keep replying to my posts?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Why do you keep replying to my posts?


because thats what you want, as you posted them on a discussion forum.
same applies to everyone on here, including myself 

did you check out her site? it addresses some of your questions


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> because thats what you want, as you posted them on a discussion forum.
> same applies to everyone on here, including myself


Exactly my point!

You post on a discussion forum to do just that. Discuss! She just made one post then ran away. Rather strange.

As for her website. Yes, I did read it and I had a few questions. I was interested in her sayings she took the middle ground, so to speak. It interests me because I think there is often more than one way to teach a dog- after all, shepherds have been training dogs to round up sheep for centuaries without reading any books. Some of then quite successful, too.

It's not easy to discuss something you believe passionatly in when others hold opposite views, but if you believe strongly, you ought to have he courage of your convictions and at least try to explain your points to others. I speak from experience as I have a real hatred of pseudo science and alternative medicine and have regularly been berated for my views on here. That will not stop me from expressing these views when my blood reaches boiling point!

Pity she didn't stick around.

Could have been interesting :thumbsup:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Exactly my point!
> 
> You post on a discussion forum to do just that. Discuss! She just made one post then ran away. Rather strange.
> 
> ...


she hasnt just made one post, she has made several as a member, and she did explain her points 

but now she felt people werent interested in just a discussion, they wanted to take it further. there were already a couple comments getting that way. it wouldnt have got better if she hung around. she wasnt interested in the politics, she said why, then said thanks, no thanks, im fine, nothing to gain for me being on here. see ya.

its only strange if you think that chat forums are important. lots of people dont, i guess she doesnt?
most normal folk arent interested in running their blood to boiling just for the internet. if people arent interested in having arguments, thats fine, isnt it? might be your cup of tea, fair dues to you, and fair dues to her if its not hers?

your life, her life, different people, different interests, what does it matter? 
if you are as passionate in her explaining her ideas as she is in holding them, just email her? more than one way to skin a cat


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I have just checked.

She made her opening post.

Then she made her final post, withdrawing from the thread (with Avery short addendum, giving a definition of "holistic").



As you yourself said, this is a discussion forum. It's kinda self explanatory. You come here to discuss things. Otherwise it sounds like you are plugging something.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I have just checked.
> 
> She made her opening post.
> 
> ...


11 posts several threads, most before this thread


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Were not talking about other threads. We are talking bout this thread.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Were not talking about other threads. We are talking bout this thread.


..............i was


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Balance Behaviour Modification.....I would really have been interested to hear, from a practitioner, how you decide when to use positive and when negative reinforcement. Is it relevant to the specific problem, the breed, the dog's reaction to R+, the attitude of the owners or what?
Don't think I could use negative myself but would have liked to know.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Linda Weasel said:


> Balance Behaviour Modification.....I would really have been interested to hear, from a practitioner, how you decide when to use positive and when negative reinforcement. Is it relevant to the specific problem, the breed, the dog's reaction to R+, the attitude of the owners or what?
> Don't think I could use negative myself but would have liked to know.


Interesting topic for discussion yes that would be

might be a thread for you to start ?

From my POV I'm not even that convinced by operant conditioning


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Linda Weasel said:


> Balance Behaviour Modification.....I would really have been interested to hear, from a practitioner, how you decide when to use positive and when negative reinforcement. Is it relevant to the specific problem, the breed, the dog's reaction to R+, the attitude of the owners or what?
> Don't think I could use negative myself but would have liked to know.


We all use negative reinforcement all the time.

When I come into the kitchen in the morning I refuse to acknowledge my pup until he sits quietly. That's negative reinforcement.

The use of the word negative does not necessarily mean something bad. Similarly the use of the word "positive" does not necessarily mean good. Hitting your dog for barking is positive punishment.

Trails and Trails. Do you mean you are unconvinced that operant condition works with dogs?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> We all use negative reinforcement all the time.
> 
> When I come into the kitchen in the morning I refuse to acknowledge my pup until he sits quietly. That's negative reinforcement.
> 
> ...


no, im unconvinced that is the main driver as to why and how dogs work.
i think it is part of the process and will eventually be seen as just a stage as we discover more about canine psychology


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> no, im unconvinced that is the main driver as to why and how dogs work.
> i think it is part of the process and will eventually be seen as just a stage as we discover more about canine psychology


Can you reword that? I still don't follow. Operant and classical conditioning are essential to the understanding of psychology. Whether that's human or canine. On what basis do you doubt it's veracity?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Can you reword that? I still don't follow. Operant and classical conditioning are essential to the understanding of psychology. Whether that's human or canine. On what basis do you doubt it's veracity?


they are important, classical more than operant.
but they arent the only way, as they are stages in the path of scientific understanding of the psychology of learning theory

learning theory is moving into the area of whats regarded as the cognitive revolution

whereby operant conditioning was a step onward _from_ the old (konrad most) victorian model, and became the new established order for training dogs from around the 80's onwards (albeit dominance came back strong the last decade, so now we have two established orders), the cognitive revolution will be a step onward _from_ operant conditioning for the purposes of training dogs, and that will become the new mainstream at some stage in the future.
science always evolves


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I wouldn't describe dominance as established. Especially not now.

What do you mean by the cognitive revolution? I have never heard that term before.

I thought classical and operant condition were well and truly established concepts. I was not aware of any serious challenges to it. Can you tell me what they are, and who is challenging it?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I wouldn't describe dominance as established. Especially not now.
> 
> What do you mean by the cognitive revolution? I have never heard that term before.
> 
> I thought classical and operant condition were well and truly established concepts. I was not aware of any serious challenges to it. Can you tell me what they are, and who is challenging it?


of course dominance is established, thats why we are always arguing against it these days

it went out of favour a bit then cesar milan dog borstal jan fennell etc hit the celebrity mainstream so the idea took hold again

so now we have 2 status quos in the dog world, im not really sold on either, tbh

re other point temple grandin good place to start

could go on for pages, now time, sorry

another day, its a big task

sorry, no offence


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I completely disagree with you regarding dominance. 

It may be popular amongst the poorly educated general public, but it has not been accepted in the scientific community for many many years. It has been firmly and soundly rejected.

I did look up "cognitive revolution" and it seemed on my short reading it seems to be just the refutation of behavioural theory.


I shall look up temple grandin. Never heard of him/it before!

Talk later. Interesting!


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I completely disagree with you regarding dominance.
> 
> It may be popular amongst the poorly educated general public, but it has not been accepted in the scientific community for many many years. It has been firmly and soundly rejected.
> 
> ...


who said i wasnt talking about the general public? and some dog trainers or that matter

there isnt an official titled behaviour theory called cognitive revolution, its just an umbrella term some people use casually to describe new views, studies, and understandings of canine psychology and learning from the point of the neuroscience, cognition, emotions, etc, instead of the usual anti emotional mechanical/impersonal apporaches of OC and dominance.

lots of bits and bobs all over the place, early stage paradigm

start with temple grandin  shes a famous autistic and animal behaviourist.
i reckon she is the smartest woman alive


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

From what I have read, the cognatove revolution is just the move away from behaviourism. With advances in fMRI - especially in dogs- I think we could take a Great Leap Forward in our understanding of dog behaviour.

I looked her up. I have actually come accross her many years ago, I just didn't recognise her name. She has done an awful lot for the welfare of agricultural animals in the USA and towards our understanding of agricultural animals.

Not sure what she says about dogs, or learning theory though.

I shall do a lit search and see what I can come up with.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

If we can move forward a bit from operant/classical conditioning I think that's a good thing. It's become a bit robotic..."if I do x amount of repetitions then my dog will do this".
Lots of people are disappointed when they don't get the result they expected.
I speak as a person who's timing with a clicker is just pants!


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2014)

Of course classical and operant conditioning arent the only way dogs learn. Dogs learn through observation, through imitation, and of course you cant discount instinctual behaviors either. 

However, none of that is to say that learning theory is not a sound theory. It is a scientific theory - much like a heliocentric universe is a theory. Its not theory in the layperson sense of a loose understanding of something.
Nor do I see that learning theory is going to be replaced by anything. Just as we learn more about dogs and how they learn that there will be things *added* to learning theory. 

We have come a long way since the Skinner box and we understand the applications of learning theory much better now, and will continue to learn and grow in the understanding of how animals (including those of the human variety) learn.

Temple Grandin has been hugely instrumental in helping us see things from an emotional POV with animals, as well as examining the effect of stress on all sorts of things including cognitive function. Often when things like OC dont seem to work stress plays a huge role. 
Stress is another area that the more we study it, the more I think it will add to our understanding of animals in general and though that the effectiveness with which we can apply OC.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Of course classical and operant conditioning arent the only way dogs learn. Dogs learn through observation, through imitation, and of course you cant discount instinctual behaviors either.
> 
> However, none of that is to say that learning theory is not a sound theory. It is a scientific theory - much like a heliocentric universe is a theory. Its not theory in the layperson sense of a loose understanding of something.
> Nor do I see that learning theory is going to be replaced by anything. Just as we learn more about dogs and how they learn that there will be things *added* to learning theory.
> ...


my words exactly :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I think we actually are mostly agreeing with each other


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Thud!

That was me fainting in shock.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

staffgirl said:


> Thud!
> 
> That was me fainting in shock.


......how come?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Because we're agreeing.


It's never been known to happen before!


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Because we're agreeing.
> 
> It's never been known to happen before!


what, you mean you and ouesi??


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Certainly me and......

Any one mostly!


But not on this forum usually it's the health and nutrition forum. No one ever agrees with me there. Well, not strictly true. Quite a few pm me to agree and some even post support. But it's a pretty rare occurrence.

It's on account of me supporting evidence based science and being strongly opposed to pseudoscience.


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