# It can happen to anyone.....



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Well I've been dreading admitting this but here goes. My beautiful imported and health tested English Shepherd bitch, Izi, is pregnant to my equally beautiful but yet untested imported English Shepherd 8 month old puppy, Stan. He is from great lines and all the ancestors tested have great hips, and he is MDR1 N/N by pedigree, but still...... He is just a pup. Izi is old enough to be bred but I was going to wait Neil next season and had a dog lined up.

What happened was, my hubby came home on leave and had booked a surprise night in a hotel for us - right in the middle of Izi's season. So I asked my most trusted friend to look after my dogs. They were to be kept in my kennels, Izi in the far side pen, Betty in the middle and Stan on the right, so there was no way of him getting to het. Betty and Stan were to be taken out for a walk together and I told her not to bother walking Izi as I didn't want her to have the responsibility. Well, Four-And-A-Half weeks later, she made a confession to me. After walking Betty and Stan she has got their pens mixed up and somehow Stan had got in Izi's pen. She said they must have been together for an hour and a half. She had been plucking up the courage to tell me!!! Sigh. So I took Izi to the vet the next day and sure enough she is expecting.

This may not have been so bad, however I had my other bitch, Dora, AI'd in March so if she is pregnant they will be due within a fortnight of each other!! I can't believe it. I am SO careful.

Well, I'll just be hoping for small litters! Pray for me!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I suppose at least they are all pedigrees and from good lines!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> I suppose at least they are all pedigrees and from good lines!


True. And Stan is the most lovely dog ever. I'm just dreading they have typical ES sized litters! My previous litters have been 11, 10, 10, and 12! I'm hoping that's not likely as Stan is so young and Dora was AI'd.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

opps oh dear, well accidents happen and this will be an interesting result, good luck


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Stan is rather beautiful :001_wub:


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Just goes to show you can only rely on yourself.........and where there's a willy there's a way.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I don't know much about this breed so excuse my ignorance  Just wondering if there is a potential risk owing to the male not being health tested...? I totally appreciate that he's from good lines, but are there any breed related diseases that could affect the pups?


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I'd be livid. How on earth can you get mixed up, it sounds like you have three separate pens/kennels. It is pretty obvious which is the bitch on the lead and which is the dog and they go back in the kennel/pen they came from. Am I being too simplistic. Is your set up more complicated.

I'll be honest if I ended up with two litters in a short space of time, she could flaming help to look after them.  I would probably have calmed down by the time the pups arrived.

You need to put a dab of different coloured paint on each latch and corresponding coloured dog collars so next time your friend can't get mixed up with whose who and which kennel.

I wish you the best of British with two litters. Blimey I had two puppies, roughly the same age  - I envy you in someways


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

So is the mis-mate jab out of the question then?

This litter was not planned so I'm confused.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

8tansox said:


> So is the mis-mate jab out of the question then?
> 
> This litter was not planned so I'm confused.


I know nothing about breeding at all, but have read lots of posts on here suggesting the mis-mate injection, it it to late for that now?

This friend would be know friend of mine now, ok accidents can and do happen but not to tell you for four and a half weeks you may have a pregnant dog - sorry but that is bloody disgusting to me


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Yep, that's what happens when you trust someone else!  You're in a better position than I was, I didn't know til she was seven weeks gone - only then was I told the truth!

Good luck with your 'load'  - what a naughty little boy, am surprised he had any ink in his pen, lol!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I don't know much about this breed so excuse my ignorance  Just wondering if there is a potential risk owing to the male not being health tested...? I totally appreciate that he's from good lines, but are there any breed related diseases that could affect the pups?


No there aren't. The only health tests are MDR1 and hips.



sskmick said:


> I'd be livid. How on earth can you get mixed up, it sounds like you have three separate pens/kennels. It is pretty obvious which is the bitch on the lead and which is the dog and they go back in the kennel/pen they came from. Am I being too simplistic. Is your set up more complicated.
> 
> I'll be honest if I ended up with two litters in a short space of time, she could flaming help to look after them.  I would probably have calmed down by the time the pups arrived.
> 
> ...


Oh believe me I was livid, and she has offered to help in any way she can. Seriously my set up is NOT complicated. There will NEVER be a next time. 


8tansox said:


> So is the mis-mate jab out of the question then?
> 
> This litter was not planned so I'm confused.


I think there is a type of mismate that can be used late in pregnancy but I am not going to use it on a bitch I intend to breed from anyway.


3dogs2cats said:


> I know nothing about breeding at all, but have read lots of posts on here suggesting the mis-mate injection, it it to late for that now?
> 
> This friend would be know friend of mine now, ok accidents can and do happen but not to tell you for four and a half weeks you may have a pregnant dog - sorry but that is bloody disgusting to me


As above re mismate, and yes I was mad, but she was so worried because she knows how careful I am with my dogs. She is my best friend (35 years) and she made a big mistake which she is very sorry for.



Malmum said:


> Yep, that's what happens when you trust someone else!  You're in a better position than I was, I didn't know til she was seven weeks gone - only then was I told the truth!
> 
> Good luck with your 'load'  - what a naughty little boy, am surprised he had any ink in his pen, lol!


Yes at least I can prepare. I won't be trusting anyone else again.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I thought the mismate jab wouldnt do any harm to a bitch?

Will the KC register a litter sired by an eight month old!


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I thought the mismate jab wouldnt do any harm to a bitch?
> 
> Will the KC register a litter sired by an eight month old!


I think the English Shepherds are not recognised by the KC,i do believe the OP is doing her best to get them properly recognised and established by the KC.

I apologise if i have got this wrong.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I thought the mismate jab wouldnt do any harm to a bitch?
> 
> Will the KC register a litter sired by an eight month old!


I will not take that chance when the litter is likely to be a fantastic litter. The UK KC don't recognise the ES, they are only recognised in USA.



Firedog said:


> I think the English Shepherds are not recognised by the KC,i do believe the OP is doing her best to get them properly recognised and established by the KC.
> 
> I apologise if i have got this wrong.


That's true, but we don't really want to be recognised for 'show'.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

luvmydogs said:


> No there aren't. *The only health tests are MDR1 and hips.*
> 
> Oh believe me I was livid, and she has offered to help in any way she can. Seriously my set up is NOT complicated. There will NEVER be a next time.
> 
> ...


Guess I'm just wondering...even though the male dog's parents have good hip scores, *he* himself could still have poor ones or even have HD - at least the way I understand it....?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> I will not take that chance when the litter is likely to be a fantastic litter. The UK KC don't recognise the ES, they are only recognised in USA.
> 
> That's true, but we don't really want to be recognised for 'show'.


Oh but I thought you wanted hip scores before breeding took place to be sure of your lines.

No doubt they will be beautiful of course.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Guess I'm just wondering...even though the male dog's parents have good hip scores, *he* himself could still have poor ones or even have HD - at least the way I understand it....?


Yes thats true, which is why I worry. Having said that, you can have 2 dogs with perfect scores that produce dogs with bad hips.......... the best we can do is breed from the best. His mother is OFA excellent and his father, his fathers brother and his fathers sister have the three best scores in the breed.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Oh but I thought you wanted hip scores before breeding took place to be sure of your lines.
> 
> No doubt they will be beautiful of course.


I did  He'll be scored as soon as he's a year old. I'm sure they will.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I know the title reads "It can happen to anyone .... " but honestly? I have lots of friends who have male entire dogs, living with bitches all of the time, when they come into season, and in their 40+ years of owning and breeding, none of them have ever had ONE accident. 

Sorry, I just don't buy it.  It's very sad and so unnecessary.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

It's a shame that i probably don't live anywhere near you,i would have been more than happy to come and help you with the pups.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> I did  He'll be scored as soon as he's a year old. I'm sure they will.


I thought in these cases when the breeders are really concerned about the hip scores, they usually mismate, even if the bitch was going to be mated and the puppy a fine looking dog.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

8tansox said:


> I know the title reads "It can happen to anyone .... " but honestly? I have lots of friends who have male entire dogs, living with bitches all of the time, when they come into season, and in their 40+ years of owning and breeding, none of them have ever had ONE accident.
> 
> Sorry, I just don't buy it.  It's very sad and so unnecessary.


Think what you like. Things can and do happen out of ones control at times. It has not happened to me before in 25 years of breeding. Do you really think I would choose to have two litters at once? Don't answer, I'm not interested.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Firedog said:


> It's a shame that i probably don't live anywhere near you,i would have been more than happy to come and help you with the pups.


Thanks Firedog 


emmaviolet said:


> I thought in these cases when the breeders are really concerned about the hip scores, they usually mismate, even if the bitch was going to be mated and the puppy a fine looking dog.


if I was really concerned, maybe I would have.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Think what you like. Things can and do happen out of ones control at times. It has not happened to me before in 25 years of breeding. Do you really think I would choose to have two litters at once? Don't answer, I'm not interested.


I know someone who had a Border Terrier girl and boy,the girl was getting on and she didn't want her getting mated.Well the bitch came into season and this woman and her hubby were on sentry duty and let the bitch out for a wee and next thing she sees both of them at it under the lilac tree as if they had planned the whole thing.Dog had excaped his crate.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I guess I'm a tad biased as I have a young dog with Hip Dysplasia.


I do appreciate that yes, there are never any guarantees. However, if HD is an issue with this breed, then as the male hasn't been hip scored, I'm a bit surprised you're letting the pregnancy go ahead. PLEASE DON'T take this as anything other than my subjective view - which you knew you'd get from people when you posted 

Fingers crossed for you and the pups that all goes well


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Think what you like. Things can and do happen out of ones control at times. It has not happened to me before in 25 years of breeding. Do you really think I would choose to have two litters at once? Don't answer, I'm not interested.


No, I shan't waste any more of my time on this thread either.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Well I've been dreading admitting this but here goes. My beautiful imported and health tested English Shepherd bitch, Izi, is pregnant to my equally beautiful but yet untested imported English Shepherd 8 month old puppy, Stan. He is from great lines and all the ancestors tested have great hips, and he is MDR1 N/N by pedigree, but still...... He is just a pup. Izi is old enough to be bred but I was going to wait Neil next season and had a dog lined up.
> 
> What happened was, my hubby came home on leave and had booked a surprise night in a hotel for us - *right in the middle of Izi's season. So I asked my most trusted friend to look after my dogs.* They were to be kept in my kennels, Izi in the far side pen, Betty in the middle and Stan on the right, so there was no way of him getting to het. Betty and Stan were to be taken out for a walk together and I told her not to bother walking Izi as I didn't want her to have the responsibility. Well, Four-And-A-Half weeks later, she made a confession to me. After walking Betty and Stan she has got their pens mixed up and somehow Stan had got in Izi's pen. She said they must have been together for an hour and a half. She had been plucking up the courage to tell me!!! Sigh. So I took Izi to the vet the next day and sure enough she is expecting.
> 
> ...


Personally, I would NEVER trust anyone else to look after my bitch(es) whilst in season. If it was completely unavoidable, I'd send the boy away and get someone in to look after an in season bitch in my home alone.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I thought the mismate jab wouldnt do any harm to a bitch?
> 
> Will the KC register a litter sired by an eight month old!


The breed isn't yet recognised by the UK KC - although I believe is by most overseas KC registries.

But in answer to your question - yes, (if applicable) a litter CAN be registered with the UK KC if the sire is that young. .

If the sire if that young - it's only bitches the rule applies to.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I thought in these cases when the breeders are really concerned about the hip scores, they usually mismate, even if the bitch was going to be mated and the puppy a fine looking dog.


A breeder can do prelims on the dog prior to 12 months, this will give a good indication of the condition of the hips, and whether there is a risk of the hips being poor.

In fairness, most people aren't going to shout about a "whoops" mating from the roof-tops - they CAN and DO happen, it doesn't matter how long they've been breeding.

OP, I know you are working remarkably hard to develop new lines of this breed in the UK and I think I'm right in saying you have mixed views on the breed becoming KC registered - but ultimately, to establish the breed further, getting it first onto the import register can only surely be a good thing?

I'm assuming if any of your pups go to countries where the breed is recognised, as many registries still technically have open gene pools, they will accept partial and then potentially full registration at a later date? - eg. France where the dogs have to pass a conformation test to acquire full registration/


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

It could be worse.....it could be the bitch that's only 8 months old!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

swarthy said:


> A breeder can do prelims on the dog prior to 12 months, this will give a good indication of the condition of the hips, and whether there is a risk of the hips being poor.
> 
> In fairness, most people aren't going to shout about a "whoops" mating from the roof-tops - they CAN and DO happen, it doesn't matter how long they've been breeding.
> 
> ...


What prelims can be done swarthy? I've never heard of that here - however stans litter brother has been pen hipped and had excellent results.

I'm concerned that the breed will become 'cookie cutter' (to use an American expression) dogs with no working ability. My pups have gone to France, Belgium and Germany but none of the owners want registration either. However I am also concerned the breed will die out again without more interest. It's a tough one.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

If this was a newbie they would have been told how irresponsible it is to allow the pregnancy to continue with the sire not being health tested.

Hips, as we all know are a rule to their own, you can have 2 parents with great hips and pups with bad hip problems. However by hip scoring you are ensuring your giving the puppies the best chance.

I'm sorry but because the sire's brother has good hips doesn't mean he will. Someone I know had a wonderful dog who was perfect, he was shown, a lovely dog, his sister had a good score (If I remember right it was 4:5) yet when it came to him, he had scores in their 80's and was found to need a hip operation. No outward signs if it wasn't for the scoring it wouldn't have been found.

Sorry I just fail to see how it's any different a known breeder allowing a litter from a 8 month old, non tested dog than any of the newbies we get on here. Yes the dam is health tested but it works off both parents.

I wish you the best of luck, I hope your boy has good results when done.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> What prelims can be done swarthy? I've never heard of that here - however stans litter brother has been pen hipped and had excellent results.
> 
> I'm concerned that the breed will become 'cookie cutter' (to use an American expression) dogs with no working ability. My pups have gone to France, Belgium and Germany but none of the owners want registration either. However I am also concerned the breed will die out again without more interest. It's a tough one.


I believe it is taking the dog to a good hip plate taker - who will be able to advise you on the condition of the hips - it's not the same as obviously getting the scores - but it will tell you whether there is going to be a problem with your boy or not. If the brother has undergone testing under the PennHip scheme, - is this not something that could be considered for your boy?

Following the prelims, by my reckoning, you should be able to get the plates done and the scores back around the time the litter is 8/10 weeks dependent on turnaround.

=======================

I take on board what people are saying about the post-mate injection - but I have to say that nearly EVERY good breeder I've spoken to who's used it on a breeding bitch has given me the same response - NEVER AGAIN - many people have lost their breeding lines through it by their hand being forced to subsequently neuter - or had bitches give birth to pups with horrendous deformities in intentional subsequent litters.

Maybe I shouldn't say this on a public forum (I took advice on it after thinking my boy had got to one of my girls and was advised to go straight for the neuter as she wouldn't be bred from again) - the recommendation re: the post mate injections was - don't even go there.

Based on what I've been told, I would most certainly NOT advise the OP who has worked hard to develop a structured (and probably rather expensive) breeding programme into which they've put an enormous amount of work and I know has had their own share of headaches to use it without very good reason, and at the present time, there are still steps that can be taken with the male - I'm assuming the other condition for which your bitch has been tested and is clear is a recessive?

All in all - I don't think you can compare this situation with pet owners who "meant to get their dogs neutered" but never got around to it.

I do think the OP should make enquiries as to what testing is available to their boy prior to getting his hip-scores done - if you can PM me where you are then I can make enquiries and see if I can point you in the right direction.

I keep entire boys and girls in the house - and all I can say is "there but for the grace of god" - avoiding accidents is never something I don't take for granted and never will -

To those to whom it hasn't happened, don't believe it never will - it can and has happened to the best - dogs don't even have to be together 2 minutes for the damage to be done (and to less likely be noticed).

For those with "friends" it has never happened to - you spend every minute with them and monitor all their dogs each and every time, and they tell you every little thing that's happened there?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Actually there is a vet I've used who is very good at assessing hips and gives scores very close to the BVA scoring. I will look into that. Izi is MDR1 n/n so all pups from this pairing will definitely be n/n.

I will definitely not be using the mismate this late.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Info about OFA prelims Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia

...but i guess irrelevant if you wouldn't missmate regardless


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

shetlandlover said:


> If this was a newbie they would have been told how irresponsible it is to allow the pregnancy to continue with the sire not being health tested.
> 
> Hips, as we all know are a rule to their own, you can have 2 parents with great hips and pups with bad hip problems. However by hip scoring you are ensuring your giving the puppies the best chance.
> 
> ...


This is what jumped out to me straight away, the difference in replies between a new user and a regular. If this was a new user I can't believe anyone would make jokes and say these things happen, before they could get their story written everyone would be shouting mismate. I just genuinely don't understand the difference here


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

The difference between me and a novice breeder is that I know what I am doing, I have researched the lines and the only thing missing is the sires hip score. His ancestors and a sibling have been scored with fantastic results and even when he is scored, if he has fab hips there is no guarantee his pups will. I'll have him prelimed and I'll be honest with puppy owners. I do believe he will have great hips. I'll keep you informed.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Knowing nothing about breeding except my one experience, I was told by my vet not to mismate or abort spay Kali at seven weeks, he said the risks to her out weighed the risk of the pregnancy/whelping and luckily all went well. Of her eight pups, at almost five years old, I have the only one to have shown problems - some of the others even working. My dogs scores were higher than the BMS so perhaps I'm lucky to have got away with just one poorly pup. 

No doubt op's sire will shine through with good results but even if he doesn't the likelihood of her having poorly pups would surely be less than my guys as her dogs ancestry is going to be far better. Not a guarantee of course but more likely I would have thought. Add to that she knows what she is doing and is not breeding for money, I don't think she can be compared to some of the newbies we've seen on her tbh.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> The difference between me and a novice breeder is that I know what I am doing.


No it makes no difference, if the dog is untested you can't possibly say he has good health nor will produce puppies with good health, even health tested you can't say the pups wont suffer with HD.

There's no difference at all apart from people on the forum have double standards, if a new person bred their health tested girl with a untested sire they would be quizzed, ripped into and told to mismate. However if someone who's a older member gets a pat on the back.

At the end of it all even if hip scored the mating could produce bad hips BUT by testing you are giving the best chance.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

No-one is giving me a pat on the back, and I'm certainly not doing that myself. This was a very unusual set of circumstances and hopefully people know enough about me and my breeding practises to understand my reasons not to mismate.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Knowing nothing about breeding except my one experience, I was told by my vet not to mismate or abort spay Kali at seven weeks, he said the risks to her out weighed the risk of the pregnancy/whelping and luckily all went well. Of her eight pups, at almost five years old, I have the only one to have shown problems - some of the others even working. My dogs scores were higher than the BMS so perhaps I'm lucky to have got away with just one poorly pup.
> 
> No doubt op's sire will shine through with good results but even if he doesn't the likelihood of her having poorly pups would surely be less than my guys as her dogs ancestry is going to be far better. Not a guarantee of course but more likely I would have thought. Add to that she knows what she is doing and is not breeding for money, I don't think she can be compared to some of the newbies we've seen on her tbh.


Thank you.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I just hope you don't struggle to home such a potentially large number of pups of a relatively unknown breed within such a small time frame.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> I just hope you don't struggle to home such a potentially large number of pups of a relatively unknown breed within such a small time frame.


this is my worry


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Knowing nothing about breeding except my one experience, I was told by my vet not to mismate or abort spay Kali at seven weeks, he said the risks to her out weighed the risk of the pregnancy/whelping and luckily all went well. Of her eight pups, at almost five years old, I have the only one to have shown problems - some of the others even working. My dogs scores were higher than the BMS so perhaps I'm lucky to have got away with just one poorly pup.
> 
> No doubt op's sire will shine through with good results but even if he doesn't the likelihood of her having poorly pups would surely be less than my guys as her dogs ancestry is going to be far better. Not a guarantee of course but more likely I would have thought. Add to that she knows what she is doing and is not breeding for money, I don't think she can be compared to some of the newbies we've seen on her tbh.


I have to say though that flynns double hip replacement was pretty bad and isnt getting off lightly.

Also they are five. Many years ago we had a family dog, bwfire health tests were done and he would run around all day. Then at eight he started to limp and he had x rays done and had severe HD to which we lost him at ten wheb he list use of his back end completely.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> this is my worry


I thought of that last night. Didn't you have some left from the last litter for a while?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I thought of that last night. Didn't you have some left from the last litter for a while?


I had two left until they were nine weeks, so not long. I do have a waiting list, but I never have much faith in them.


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## Suek (Apr 1, 2008)

I only looked at this cos I was interested in what a English Shepherd is 

what a bag of worms


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Suek said:


> I only looked at this cos I was interested in what a English Shepherd is
> 
> what a bag of worms


lovely dogs though, eh?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I have to say though that flynns double hip replacement was pretty bad and isnt getting off lightly.
> 
> Also they are five. Many years ago we had a family dog, bwfire health tests were done and he would run around all day. Then at eight he started to limp and he had x rays done and had severe HD to which we lost him at ten wheb he list use of his back end completely.


You needn't have lost your dog at ten, you obviously chose not to go down the THR route and at eight he wasn't too old for that. Noel Fitzpatrick told me there is no upper age limit for this op, so if owners choose not to go there and possibly shorten their dogs life, that is up to them. Flynn's ops were not all plain sailing due to the second dislocating but he has a fantastic life now and hips that should last til the end of his day according to Noel. Had I mismated he'd not be here, neither would his siblings who have very loving homes. I wouldn't have the pleasure I have with my boy, the other owners wouldn't either and our dogs wouldn't have the wonderful lives they have - they'd all be dead!

If op were breeding litter after litter without health testing and I had done the same then I think it should be frowned upon but accidents can happen and when they do you have to do what you think is best, listen to advice but ultimately make your own choice.

I look at Flynn every day and am so glad I gave him the chance despite what he had to go through to get here. He is such a well balanced, happy and very much loved dog that those ops were just a minor set back, he certainly doesn't know what he's been through. 

I'm not advocating breeding dogs badly because they can have hip replacements, what I am saying is if a dog has debilitating HD it doesn't need to suffer all of its life because THR surgery is available and very successful these days and I don't understand why owners choose not to use it but manage a dog with limited exercise and pain relief.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> No-one is giving me a pat on the back, and I'm certainly not doing that myself. This was a very unusual set of circumstances and hopefully people know enough about me and my breeding practises to understand my reasons not to mismate.


Gosh was a dilemma, not one i'd want to be in. I know for sure you wouldn't have chosen to have 2 litters on the go , no one would . FWIW my sable boy caught my blue merle year old bitch on her 22nd day , a mating thats frowned upon i choose a mismate jab just incase, and she never ever had another season in her life. Just remember a lot breeders don't even health test full stop ,even in my breed , some of them top breeders. No double standard here as i never comment on mismate threads, however you've always come across as someone who does the best you can for your relatively unknown breed. Mistakes happen. Good luck with your whelpings 
hopefully not too large


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

dexter said:


> Gosh was a dilemma, not one i'd want to be in. I know for sure you wouldn't have chosen to have 2 litters on the go , no one would . FWIW my sable boy caught my blue merle year old bitch on her 22nd day , a mating thats frowned upon i choose a mismate jab just incase, and she never ever had another season in her life. Just remember a lot breeders don't even health test full stop ,even in my breed , some of them top breeders. No double standard here as i never comment on mismate threads, however you've always come across as someone who does the best you can for your relatively unknown breed. Mistakes happen. Good luck with your whelpings
> hopefully not too large


Thank you. Izi is such a perfect example of the breed, I would hate to think she could never be bred from. Not a chance worth taking given how fabulous Stan is.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Malmum this was in the early nineties. No one was doing a double hip replacement on dogs at eight years old then. It was 1990 when he got diagnosed.

No one chose to lose him.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Thank you. Izi is such a perfect example of the breed, I would hate to think she could never be bred from. Not a chance worth taking given how fabulous Stan is.


no it isn't i agree.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm not a breeder, and although my gut says I would choose mismate... your dogs your decision.

I just wanted to say that I think your incredibly brave posting so honestly about your situation. You must know that many wont agree, and yet you still posted. You could have chosen to keep it silent and pretend it didnt happen.

There doesnt seem to be many "bad" breeders on this forum - they just dont survive the ride it seems (rightly so!), so I cannot imagine that a long standing member would be likely to be so honest and open about such a horrid situation to be in, without thinking that they were doing the best for their dogs in the long run. 

I do wish you the best of british. Whatever route you go down. I do have one final suggestion (and it may be completely an idiot one) but here goes....

What about sending one of your girls to another breeder you trust implicitly? 
Someone who could/can deal with the whelping and raising of the litter for you (at your cost) and ensuring all the pups and mums have the attention they need and deserve.


I cannot imagine dealing with 2 bitches and upwards of 20 puppies at a time, and just wondered if that may help ensure they are raised to the standard you would want, but may not be able to achieve if both litters are raised single handedly at home together.

Just a thought, and feel free anyone to tell me I am talking out of my a$$


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

im not a breeder but just wanted to say good luck with the litter im sure they will be lovely and healthy , its obvious from your previous posts that you are a responsible breeder who cares for your dogs  , as its been pointed out its rarely as simple as just giving the mismate jab , you've obviously weighed up the risks ect before making a decision .

I would love a English shepherd in the future and have bookmarked your page


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

It's a shame i'm not currently looking for a pup to do working trials with otherwise I may have been swayed from an Australian Shepherd to an English Shepherd.

Doesnt help your situation though i'm afraid.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> Malmum this was in the early nineties. No one was doing a double hip replacement on dogs at eight years old then. It was 1990 when he got diagnosed.
> 
> No one chose to lose him.


That's very sad and of course without insurance it would have been nigh on impossible to have Flynn done too. I wonder if health testing was as popular then as it is now, I don't recall our Dane or GSD having any particular tests - long time ago though.

THR has improved no end in recent years, as have the surgeons who do it, a 10% risk is very low for any op but of course best that it doesn't need doing at all.


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

JAChihuahua said:


> *There doesnt seem to be many "bad" breeders on this forum - they just dont survive the ride it seems (rightly so!)*, so I cannot imagine that a long standing member would be likely to be so honest and open about such a horrid situation to be in, without thinking that they were doing the best for their dogs in the long run.


I think that is because whenever someone new joins the forum for help about breeding a litter they get shot down and treated like they are somehow 'inferior'

There isnt many 'bad' breeders on this forum because they all get scared away and go elsewhere for the help and advice they are looking for....


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

kate_7590 said:


> I think that is because whenever someone new joins the forum for help about breeding a litter they get shot down and treated like they are somehow 'inferior'
> 
> There isnt many 'bad' breeders on this forum because they all get scared away and go elsewhere for the help and advice they are looking for....


I havent seen anyone being shot down or treated as inferior - except for those who clearly havent thought through the process, what it means and how to do it for the best interests of their dogs. Health tests, temperaments, finances, back-ups, mentoring, research, knowledge of breed and lines.... are just a few things that many of the new members threads seem to lack.

I have seen threads where someone is considering breeding in the future and beginning the research - they get help

I have seen threads where someone has a trully accidental litter (currently the rescue collie thread springs to mind, but there are others and some stickies), and they get help

I'm not a breeder, but tbh sometimes the best help for someone who isnt going into breeding for the right reasons is to turn your back and not help. If they dont get the help then perhaps they wont breed, or perhaps if they do the experience will be so horrible that they dont breed again. I would rather that, than condone bad breeding practices.

If someone joins and is given the right advice (but perhaps not what they wanted to hear), and chooses to leave then so be it. Ive seen threads where people join, they are advised re health tests etc etc etc, they get their knickers in a twist and then they leave because what they wanted to know was how to whelp and raise the puppies in the cheapest way possible in order to make as much money as possible.... good riddance to those people imo.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> I had two left until they were nine weeks, so not long. I do have a waiting list, but I never have much faith in them.


I have to say it is a REALLY bad time to sell pups of any breed  Waiting lists are the contrariest I've ever known.

I've not had a litter for nearly 4 years, but was privileged to be involved at virtually every stage of my most recent acquisitions litter, from making the introduction to the breeder who supplied the AI semen through to whelping and raising the pups - which means I've seen first hand how things have changed with puppy buyers.

It's a VERY weird market out there atm - fortunately, with three keepers between me and the breeder (always on the cards) and a friend and I bought one in joint ownership because I felt it was too good an opportunity to miss - she has just has one pup left available from the litter - and the homes she has got for the rest of the litter are truly fantastic - so it worked out in the end - but it was hair-raising for a while.

She's got her two pups and the unsold pup at her house, I've got mine, the shared ownership pup and the one going to America here with me until she is ready to travel.

I'm not wanting to rub things in at all, but I did want to give you a "heads up" because I've seen first hand the heartache my friend has gone through with puppy buyers this time, I thought I'd had unpleasant experiences, but nothing compared to this,

Fortunately, as I said - with the exception of 1 pup, they do now all have wonderful homes with people travelling far and wide - I was fortunate that the lady I am in shared ownership with - her hubby is really handy at DIY and has built me a fabulous larger puppy run which I can section of, and with a few minor amendments will be fantastic if I ever have another litter.

It also enabled me to be able to help out until the remaining pups until they can go to their new homes - it's not easy because now they really need to be with their new owners where they get greater stimulation than they are going to get being 3 on 2 when you also already have a full household of adult dogs. (It seems a weird thing to say - but my OH had surgery last week which means he is at home with me for at least 2 weeks - which has just been fantastic in assisting with all this).

I don't know what the breeding circles are like in your breed as I know it is far less common than Labs (which can be good and bad) - but in Labs - people do tend to help each other out with directing to other litters when they can't meet prospective owners needs - and this does work quite well most of the time.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Malmum said:


> That's very sad and of course without insurance it would have been nigh on impossible to have Flynn done too. I wonder if health testing was as popular then as it is now, I don't recall our Dane or GSD having any particular tests - long time ago though.
> 
> THR has improved no end in recent years, as have the surgeons who do it, a 10% risk is very low for any op but of course best that it doesn't need doing at all.


I very much doubt it.

I dont think there are many hip scores going back to the early nineties and not in most breeds.
I don't think it is that popular now either. When you think of how many KC pups are born and how many from health tested parents.


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

JAChihuahua said:


> I havent seen anyone being shot down or treated as inferior - except for those who clearly havent thought through the process, what it means and how to do it for the best interests of their dogs. *Health tests, temperaments, finances, back-ups, mentoring, research, knowledge of breed and lines*.... are just a few things that many of the new members threads seem to lack.
> 
> *I have seen threads where someone is considering breeding in the future and beginning the research - they get help*


I dont want to get into an arguement or anything but I would like to just say, if we decided to breed from our puppy when she is old enough all points in *BOLD* we would have covered, but im sure I would get a great deal of stick on here for even considering breeding from her, because Iv never bred before so am inexperienced


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

kate_7590 said:


> I dont want to get into an arguement or anything but I would like to just say, if we decided to breed from our puppy when she is old enough all points in *BOLD* we would have covered, but im sure I would get a great deal of stick on here for even considering breeding from her, because Iv never bred before so am inexperienced


I dont think you would - honestly!

Assuming you had done your research and covered all the points, perhaps had another more experienced breeder as back-up should things get hairy (well pups are hairy but I mean the other hairy), then I think you would get much support and admiration for doing it correctly! There will always be those members who think all breeding is wrong, when there is such a bad rescue situation, but I still think you would get support and much less criticism than you expect. However I'm not a breeder and dont often venture into the breeding threads, perhaps I am wrong?


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

So if a newbie came on here with a health tested bitch that got pregnant to her non health tested 8 month old, she/he wouldn't be told to get a mismate *now *and that she's causing a risk by allowing a pregnancy to continue with a *completely unhealth* tested dog.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

kate_7590 said:


> I dont want to get into an arguement or anything but I would like to just say, if we decided to breed from our puppy when she is old enough all points in *BOLD* we would have covered, but im sure I would get a great deal of stick on here for even considering breeding from her, because Iv never bred before so am inexperienced


You shouldn't - you are right that you probably will though - often from people who've never bred a litter in their lives.

You will get some that say "leave the breeding to the professionals" - actually - there aren't that many "professional breeders" - but what there are is highly experienced breeders with a wealth of knowledge - and it goes without saying that that a lot of these breeders are nearing the latter years o their life.

If we don't learn from these breeders and glean knowledge from them - often many different ways where we pick the bits (often through experience) that work for us and start to become the breeders of the future.

I am I will admit, loathe to encourage cross-breeders - but if they are going to do this- then they need to do it properly in the same way was pedigree breeders do - whether it be an established breed, or as in the case of the OP who started this thread, a relatively new breed to the UK whose status hasn't yet been formalised by any official UK registry.

Despite the fragility and uncertainty of the puppy buying market at present - there is no question that the majority of breeds DO need good breeders, even if it is purely to take away business from puppy farmers and Back Yard Breeders.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I have to agree with Swarthy.....at the moment there aren't many puppy buyers out there, I still have the only bitch from the litter available, she was booked at birth and then the buyer went elsewhere instead of waiting, and not the only one who deserted.

I've had plenty of enquiries but not for a girl, colour or now (some people are so picky!)

My advise to the OP is try to get as many suitable buyers on your list as possible.

I'm pleased the OP declined the mis-mate jab. This definitely isn't the right situation to use it. 

Good luck with both litters, I hope everything goes well for you.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

kate_7590 said:


> I think that is because whenever someone new joins the forum for help about breeding a litter they get shot down and treated like they are somehow 'inferior'
> 
> There isnt many 'bad' breeders on this forum because they all get scared away and go elsewhere for the help and advice they are looking for....


how wrong you are. the ones that come on here for advice get exactly that, from knowledgeable people (most of the time  , it may not be what they want to hear , but they get the truth!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

JAChihuahua said:


> I'm not a breeder, and although my gut says I would choose mismate... your dogs your decision.
> 
> I just wanted to say that I think your incredibly brave posting so honestly about your situation. You must know that many wont agree, and yet you still posted. You could have chosen to keep it silent and pretend it didnt happen.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I have been racking my brains to think of someone who would take Dora - luckily she is the type of dog who would go to anyone and it is her second litter; but I'm just not sure what to do. I want whats best for the pups of course.

I did know there would be some negative replies but I hoped that members who have read what I've been saying about my dogs for a long time would make points based on my experience and love of this very rare breed as well as the situation I'm in. Evidently Shetlandlover doesn't think that counts for anything. 



hippymama said:


> im not a breeder but just wanted to say good luck with the litter im sure they will be lovely and healthy , its obvious from your previous posts that you are a responsible breeder who cares for your dogs  , as its been pointed out its rarely as simple as just giving the mismate jab , you've obviously weighed up the risks ect before making a decision .
> 
> I would love a English shepherd in the future and have bookmarked your page


Thank you! 



swarthy said:


> I have to say it is a REALLY bad time to sell pups of any breed  Waiting lists are the contrariest I've ever known.
> 
> I've not had a litter for nearly 4 years, but was privileged to be involved at virtually every stage of my most recent acquisitions litter, from making the introduction to the breeder who supplied the AI semen through to whelping and raising the pups - which means I've seen first hand how things have changed with puppy buyers.
> 
> ...


It is a worry. I'm hoping the fact that it will be summer when they're ready will help.



shetlandlover said:


> So if a newbie came on here with a health tested bitch that got pregnant to her non health tested 8 month old, she/he wouldn't be told to get a mismate *now *and that she's causing a risk by allowing a pregnancy to continue with a *completely unhealth* tested dog.


Just to clarify - we do 2 tests in ES's; hips and MDR1. He is MDR1 by pedigree, as good as tested = unaffected.



Darth said:


> I have to agree with Swarthy.....at the moment there aren't many puppy buyers out there, I still have the only bitch from the litter available, she was booked at birth and then the buyer went elsewhere instead of waiting, and not the only one who deserted.
> 
> I've had plenty of enquiries but not for a girl, colour or now (some people are so picky!)
> 
> ...


Thanks, and yes I think maybe I should start advertising now. :scared:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

some people on here don't practice what they preach  and thats not you LMD 

did you manage to get them scanned? any idea how many you could be expecting?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

dexter said:


> some people on here don't practice what they preach  and thats not you LMD
> 
> did you manage to get them scanned? any idea how many you could be expecting?


True!

I got Izi scanned at the vets but she said she wouldn't guess numbers (they've got it wrong every time I've had them scanned anyway lol) and Dora is being scanned by a sheep scanner on Fri (thought it was Thurs, got mixed up) so hopefully we will have an idea with her.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

I have bred crossbreeds - all health checks complete, lineage followed as far back as possible (ESS, CS x), I came on this forum, as a newbie admitted to being a BYB (as by definition I am) I was given full salvos across my decks - yet mine were planned and checked to the hilt, and were bred to work, yes I do see some double standards here, very much so, but I will get over it x

It can happen to anyone .................... well its NEVER going to happen to me! end of x


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

As long as you are prepared to end up keeping a whole load of pups that no-one wants, which as others have said is highly likely especially with a working breed that is relativly unknown and not going to be that sought after for starters, then it's upto you to risk it. 
Not to mention potential puppy owners or other breeders questioning the fact you state you are a good breeder yet you have 2 litters at the same time like a puppy farmer - not saying that you are at all as I know from all your posts you seem a responsible sort - but if I was looking for a pup and found a breeder who had 2 litters in quick sucession, who I didn't know, I would walk away as I think most would too - am just saying how folk could view it which you need to be prepared for - a whoops litter is all very well and some people will buy that story but most won't and I will bet folk who do want this breed will go for the health tested litter over the non.

You also need to think if your potential stud pup does turn out to have bad hip scores and the resulting pups do have issues later on and the owners come looking for compensation - are you able to cover those costs?! As well as sort out the backlash from it which could damage this new breeds image and destroy all that you have worked hard to build up. 
Personally I'd go for a mismate as the risks are too high imo, with such large litters it's not as if your bitches blood lines will die out unless she was the only surviving pup of her litter and no more breedings took place with the sire and dam, it's not the end of the world if she doesn't have a litter, she won't mind!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Just a thought, but is there no one who wants a puppy from these lines exported to them?

Or advertise it within your breed, say on facebook. This seems quite popular to let everyone know there are litters coming.

Just to add, I really dont think anyone can take away what you have been doing for these dogs and all of your litters have always looked healthy and the most content mother and pups I have ever seen.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> I have bred crossbreeds - all health checks complete, lineage followed as far back as possible (ESS, CS x), I came on this forum, as a newbie admitted to being a BYB (as by definition I am) I was given full salvos across my decks - yet mine were planned and checked to the hilt, and were bred to work, yes I do see some double standards here, very much so, but I will get over it x


The point is, people know me on here, and they know I am a good breeder, so that should count for something!



reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> It can happen to anyone .................... well its NEVER going to happen to me! end of x


Yup, I said that


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

AlexArt said:


> As long as you are prepared to end up keeping a whole load of pups that no-one wants, which as others have said is highly likely especially with a working breed that is relativly unknown and not going to be that sought after for starters, then it's upto you to risk it.
> Not to mention potential puppy owners or other breeders questioning the fact you state you are a good breeder yet you have 2 litters at the same time like a puppy farmer - not saying that you are at all as I know from all your posts you seem a responsible sort - but if I was looking for a pup and found a breeder who had 2 litters in quick sucession, who I didn't know, I would walk away as I think most would too - am just saying how folk could view it which you need to be prepared for - a whoops litter is all very well and some people will buy that story but most won't and I will bet folk who do want this breed will go for the health tested litter over the non.
> 
> You also need to think if your potential stud pup does turn out to have bad hip scores and the resulting pups do have issues later on and the owners come looking for compensation - are you able to cover those costs?! As well as sort out the backlash from it which could damage this new breeds image and destroy all that you have worked hard to build up.
> Personally I'd go for a mismate as the risks are too high imo, with such large litters it's not as if your bitches blood lines will die out unless she was the only surviving pup of her litter and no more breedings took place with the sire and dam, it's not the end of the world if she doesn't have a litter, she won't mind!!


If you knew me you would know I am prepared and able. And if you read the whole thread you would know why I chose not to mismate. ETA: This bitch is an import, there are no other English Shepherds related to her in UK.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Just a thought, but is there no one who wants a puppy from these lines exported to them?


I do export occasionally.



emmaviolet said:


> Or advertise it within your breed, say on facebook. This seems quite popular to let everyone know there are litters coming.


 Already done on my ES page 



emmaviolet said:


> Just to add, I really dont think anyone can take away what you have been doing for these dogs and all of your litters have always looked healthy and the most content mother and pups I have ever seen.


Thank you


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

luvmydogs said:


> The point is, people know me on here, and they know I am a good breeder, so that should count for something!


I am a good breeder does that count for nothing also? knowing someone does not make their actions right!


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## Cigano (Apr 4, 2013)

If the OP has been breeding so long and this was an un planned/untested mating ,then why be so flippant and want to still go forward with such a pregnancy ? 
Surely a breeder with even a fraction of their experience/years of breeding knowledge would know that you can go get a jab by your vet that will end this untested litter and it wont have any consequence to your bitch ! 

Seems puzzling to me that even tho they have the chance to put the accident right,They wont cause there maybe something that makes the world go around, to come out of it ? 

Someone posted an interesting comment on here about the difference between how a newbie breeder would be received with such a story, and how the OP wants to perceived seems to totally different...different strokes for different folks ?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> I am a good breeder does that count for nothing also? knowing someone does not make their actions right!


....and once people know that, they will hopefully post with that in mind.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Cigano said:


> Surely a breeder with even a fraction of their experience/years of breeding knowledge would know that you can go get a jab by your vet that will end this untested litter and it wont have any consequence to your bitch !


Sigh. Please read the thread. That is just not true. ETA: Its not true that its an untested litter, and it's not true that it will have no consequences for the bitch.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

luvmydogs said:


> ....and once people know that, they will hopefully post with that in mind.


but they didn't - and they still dont, being a long term forum member/known to others can not validate the mistake - maybe everyone who has commented on this thread should remember it, especially the nex time a newbie pops up and says uh oh! ! my bitch is preggers from an untested male x

difference is I have the skin of a rhino hide, and carried on x JMO


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

AlexArt said:


> Not to mention potential puppy owners or other breeders questioning the fact you state you are a good breeder yet you have 2 litters at the same time like a puppy farmer - not saying that you are at all as I know from all your posts you seem a responsible sort - but if I was looking for a pup and found a breeder who had 2 litters in quick sucession, who I didn't know, I would walk away as I think most would too - am just saying how folk could view it which you need to be prepared for


This is a very good point. It's something we always put on the list of things to avoid when people ask about finding puppies. Multiple litters within very close succession is always mentioned as something to look out for and avoid.

I can't actually think of a reason for having multiple litters at once that I would consider good enough to tempt me into considering such a breeder. I'd also be likely to wonder whether a breeder who didn't adequately plan for separations during a season might have made other dubious decisions as well.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> but they didn't - and they still dont, being a long term forum member/known to others can not validate the mistake - maybe everyone who has commented on this thread should remember it, especially the nex time a newbie pops up and says uh oh! ! my bitch is preggers from an untested male x
> 
> difference is I have the skin of a rhino hide, and carried on x JMO


I know nothing about your situation. I know my own though.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Best of luck with the litters! (Your going to need it)!  

Its a shame that you had'nt had the sires hips done prior to the accident, but lets not kid ourselves, although health testing is a important factor into breeding, its not as if its a DNA test that we have missed here. Good or bad hips can produce puppies with both. (NO I am not saying its right AT ALL) Hips should be tested for in certain breeds!


with regards to the mismate jab I know MANY breeders that wont use it on a bitch they later on plan to use, for many reason. THERE are risks to using either of the two jabs, although I believe more risks are with the Alazin than the Mesalin due to being able to use the Alazin alot later on into pregnancy. I also know of two breeders that have used the mismate on a bitch they wanted to use, and have later on had problems and NEVER been able to take a litter out of said dog, but then saying that I have used Alazin on one of my females, and she did go on to have a litter when I chose to mate her.


Although its not an ideal situation, I have no doubt that the OP here will do her upmosts, its not as if she is a newbie breeder whos trying this for the first time. She knows her breed, and her dogs. 


- someone that has two litters at any one time is also NOT classed a BYB. If that was the case we would all believe that anyone with a single litter was decent, come on stop kidding yourselves. 
I am sure this breeder can explain the circumstances, and if an potential owner feels this is unethical they have the CHOICE to walk away.
There are MANY MANY MANY factors that determine a puppy farmer, its a grey area, its not black and white and different circumstances will apply in all cases.


(I havent been on the breeding section, or the forum for a while.. But HELL what a difference, last time I was here EVERYONE congratulated ALL breeders on their litters REGARDLESS of the level of ethics. NOW look we have someone that is passionate about a breed in a difficult situation, and their being slated - I now remember why I always believed this forum to be so backwards). Regardless to my own opinions, I for one wish you all the best Luvmydogs, Its not easy raising two litters, but im sure you will do all you can, it will be a hard and expensive lesson. But a situation I believe you will never be found in again. ALL the best.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dexter said:


> some people on here don't practice what they preach  and thats not you lmd


my thoughts exactly!!!


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> someone that has two litters at any one time is also NOT classed a BYB.


It's often brought up as something to look out for when choosing an ethical breeder. Multiple litters at once for such a ridiculous reason is definitely something that would make me run a mile and plenty of other people as well.

No, it's not number of litters alone that determines how good a breeder is overall but I would not expect someone responsible and ethical to have two litters at once, especially when the reason behind having two is so ridiculous.

I must admit to being quite disturbed by the argument that using the jab might compromise the bitch's ability to produce more pups in the future. I wouldn't consider it preferable to have a large litter of puppies with one untested parent which may not be the easiest to find homes for just so I could produce yet more of these puppies at a later date.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

swarthy said:


> You shouldn't - you are right that you probably will though - often from people who've never bred a litter in their lives.
> 
> You will get some that say "leave the breeding to the professionals" - actually - there aren't that many "professional breeders" - but what there are is highly experienced breeders with a wealth of knowledge - and it goes without saying that that a lot of these breeders are nearing the latter years o their life.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to add that from the limited exposure I've had to 'experienced breeders' some older breeders don't see the need for stringent health testing. An argument put forward for not testing hips is that HD can also be caused by environmental or dietary factors. Which is true, but no excuse in my opinion.

If I breed Bess would be fully health tested and proven in the show ring to be a good example of the breed. I've come across 'professional' breeders who don't seem to think the same way.

So I think there is a need for new savvy breeders.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> It's often brought up as something to look out for when choosing an ethical breeder. Multiple litters at once for such a ridiculous reason is definitely something that would make me run a mile and plenty of other people as well.
> 
> No, it's not number of litters alone that determines how good a breeder is overall but I would not expect someone responsible and ethical to have two litters at once, especially when the reason behind having two is so ridiculous.
> 
> I must admit to being quite disturbed by the argument that using the jab might compromise the bitch's ability to produce more pups in the future. I wouldn't consider it preferable to have a large litter of puppies with one untested parent which may not be the easiest to find homes for just so I could produce yet more of these puppies at a later date.


many top breeders have more than one litter at a time of the same breed : ) what would disturb me more would be breeders who have several litters of different breeds.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Thank you so much Devil-Dogz. I'm going to recruit everyone I know with these litters lol!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

BessieDog said:


> Just wanted to add that from the limited exposure I've had to 'experienced breeders' some older breeders don't see the need for stringent health testing. An argument put forward for not testing hips is that HD can also be caused by environmental or dietary factors. Which is true, but no excuse in my opinion.
> 
> If I breed Bess would be fully health tested and proven in the show ring to be a good example of the breed. I've come across 'professional' breeders who don't seem to think the same way.
> 
> So I think there is a need for new savvy breeders.


many old breeders don't health test and never will.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Its brought up as something to look out for an question, I agree and am not saying different. - You ask the reason, and depending on the answers, you decided if YOU find it acceptable or not!!

LOTS of ethical, experienced breeders have two litters at anyone time and then go a number of years before having another. SOME breeders have two females close in age that they have been showing, and want to breed both, yet by the time they get round to it their getting on in age, so its have two at one time, chose just one to breed from (WHY when you have worked so hard to make these dogs up, and you have people wanting the lines of both) or you breed one, wait 6 months and then breed the other, RISKING that bitches health due to age.

Like I said in my opinion its a grey area, nothing is black and white and EVERY situation is different.

The jab has other risks aside from the fact that the dog may not be able to go on to later on have pups, I know of a breeder that used the jab and was left with a female with a paralysed leg. Im sure she wouldnt have got that due to having the pups. (but may have suffered something else).

The injection is also known for brining bitches back into season, increasing the risks of pyometra in the months afterwards - and in a number of cases not actually being successful. - It all depends on a breeder WHAT they feel they want to do, for their bitch. I am one that in alot of cases recommends the jab, however its NOT always the right way to go about things.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

dexter said:


> many old breeders don't health test and never will.


And yet, obviously their reputation speaks for them, otherwise they wouldn't have a market for their pups.

Sorry, OP. going off tangent.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> LOTS of ethical, experienced breeders have two litters at anyone time and then go a number of years before having another.


The decision of an individual as to whether a breeder they are considering going to is ethical or not is entirely subjective. I would not go to a breeder who had two simultaneous litters, especially with one litter being accidental with an untested and unproven sire.

I'm simply pointing out to the OP that there will be people for whom having two litters will be a deal breaker.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

kate_7590 said:


> I think that is because whenever someone new joins the forum for help about breeding a litter they get shot down and treated like they are somehow 'inferior'
> 
> There isnt many 'bad' breeders on this forum because they all get scared away and go elsewhere for the help and advice they are looking for....


I think your post is rather unfair. Yes some breeders get scared when they get jumped on but myself and several other breeders on here give as much help as possible.


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

chichi said:


> I think your post is rather unfair. Yes some breeders get scared when they get jumped on but myself and several other breeders on here give as much help as possible.


Im not saying everybody on here does it...but I have seen a good few newbies coming here asking advice and being scared away by some peoples comments about their breeding ideas.

Everybody needs to learn and I think sometimes we forget that and expect that people new to breeding should know EVERYTHING, which just isn't possible.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

An experienced breeder could manage two litters effectively for those of you concerned on that issue. I have done it..hard work..worth every second when you watch them all playing together as they get older. A novice breeder may struggle..I would have in the early days of breeding (more through worrying that everything was okay..time and experience brings confidence)

As for letting another breeder raise a litter for me..not a chance..if I still had breath in my body. Raising the litter is so important to me and I want to be with my bitch 24/7 to ensure she is confident and happy. Nobody could know her like I do and that is so important.

Mismate jabs..not something that should be taken lightly. People talk about the mismate as if its nothing. Serious consideration should be taken with a bitch intended to be bred at some stage.

Good luck OP. Wish you all the best


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

kate_7590 said:


> Im not saying everybody on here does it...but I have seen a good few newbies coming here asking advice and being scared away by some peoples comments about their breeding ideas.
> 
> Everybody needs to learn and I think sometimes we forget that and expect that people new to breeding should know EVERYTHING, which just isn't possible.


I think the majority of "judging" posts in such instances come from those who DONT breed.

I agree that sometimes it is awful the way newbies get jumped on.. but I would say that many are welcomed and given very helpful advice and support..there will always be those that jump in with judging comments but that is to be expected on such a popular forum.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> The decision of an individual as to whether a breeder they are considering going to is ethical or not is entirely subjective. I would not go to a breeder who had two simultaneous litters, especially with one litter being accidental with an untested and unproven sire.
> 
> I'm simply pointing out to the OP that there will be people for whom having two litters will be a deal breaker.


& thats YOUR choice! You have that right. Breeders are only human!


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

one of the breeders I had shortlisted had 2 litters she was expecting. In this breed its not common for the bitches to produce large litters (of course there are always exceptions), however when both bitches came into season almost simultaneously, and the litters were already planned she went ahead with the mating.

From what I understand her reasons were that 1) unlikely to be many puppies to split her attention over, 2) if either bitch was unable to raise her litter, there is a potential foster mum available 3)she was planning on keeping a pup back from each litter 4) she had been breeding for 39 years and had the experience and tenacity to deal with 2 litters at once.

The reason she didnt make the final cut for me? - no elbow scores and no syringomyelia scans (this was an essential for me, even though the breed has no essential health tests - so I CHOSE to walk away - my criteria was very strict).


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Lots of good well known fully health tested breeders have more than one litter at a time! That's what they do 'breed dogs'


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

While I do think there was a lapse of judgement in allowing an in season bitch and an entire male be looked after by a friend as I said in my previous post, I think there is a difference between this 'accident' and others that are often posted on here. From what little I remember reading it sounds like Luvmydogs has a long term breeding plan which has involved importing dogs/bitches. This kind of breeding (and should apply to all dogs being bred IMO) is very different to someone having an accidental litter to an unknown. Pedigrees and breeding plans are often planned many generations in advance with very careful consideration and knowledge about he dogs being used. A completely different scenario from someone who's pet they wanted to have a litter from has been mated by the dog next door.

Just to add, can you not get him xrayed now? He's too young to be scored, but it should give you a guide and show any problems if they exist. Not only would you be able to make a more informed decision in the event that there is a problem, but potential owners would have the reassurance that although no hip scores, his xrays show no problems.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

My main concern is that thee will be lack of demand for the pups - people who want a pup to breed from or work with will probably want one with health tested parents and not take the risk of buying one from the litter. I assume most pet owners do not even know the breed exists

I do not know how long x-ray results take to come back, but if the male was x-rayed at a year old would the results be back in time for when the pups are be to be sold?


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> LOTS of ethical, experienced breeders have two litters at anyone time and then go a number of years before having another. SOME breeders have two females close in age that they have been showing, and want to breed both, yet by the time they get round to it their getting on in age, so its have two at one time, chose just one to breed from (WHY when you have worked so hard to make these dogs up, and you have people wanting the lines of both) or you breed one, wait 6 months and then breed the other, RISKING that bitches health due to age.


i may not have campaigned my girls (so the showing isnt relative to me yet  ) but... i haven't had a litter for over 2 years (my poppet being the result) and yet this year i will have 2... i would like another pup from poppets mum, kuki, and as she is getting older this season may well be my last chance (she only goes into heat every 10-13 months) but yet poppet is also getting older, and with yorkies their pelvis will fuse at about 3 making whelping more difficult and in many cases impossible. with poppet being bigger i can wait a while longer with her, but if she was her mothers size this would be my last chance (kuki is coming in within a few weeks, and poppet will possibly follow quickly)...
so imagine if this was an extremely rare fbreed, and i had spent £1000s getting one of those girls into the counrty to have a litter from... would you honestly think it wasn't ok to have the litter that have a 98-99% chance of being Excellent Healthy dogs? with such a restricted gene pool atm i would bet that every dog in these twos pedigrees has been seen on paper and probably in life by the OP.



Devil-Dogz said:


> The jab has other risks aside from the fact that the dog may not be able to go on to later on have pups, I know of a breeder that used the jab and was left with a female with a paralysed leg. Im sure she wouldnt have got that due to having the pups. (but may have suffered something else).
> 
> The injection is also known for brining bitches back into season, increasing the risks of pyometra in the months afterwards - and in a number of cases not actually being successful. - It all depends on a breeder WHAT they feel they want to do, for their bitch. I am one that in alot of cases recommends the jab, however its NOT always the right way to go about things.





chichi said:


> Mismate jabs..not something that should be taken lightly. People talk about the mismate as if its nothing. Serious consideration should be taken with a bitch intended to be bred at some stage.


if the dog is to be spayed and not bred i Always recommend the mismate unless it's too far gone. but as said, with such a delicate breed, experienced breeder and later term pregnancy, i can 100% see the OPs point in not opting to mismate.
i mismated Missy (kukis mom) when she had a silent heat and was caught by my grans dog (who was almost falling apart bless'im) and knew those pups would probably be affected by LP and PRA- i already had kuki so wasn't worried if she never had another litter. but i Knew that toby was affected badly by those conditions, and would almost certainly pass them on... the op knows that her boy almost certainly has ok if not good-excellent hips and is MDR-1 n/n (did i write that right!?) putting that to her girl, although not great timing, isn't the worst thing in the world to happen.


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## mrsdolittle (Feb 28, 2013)

True Love will in the day


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

my how the wolves are circling ! ...


here's the reality ..ethical breeding is all about knowledge and this breeder is probably the most knowledgeable person on ES here in the Uk ....she is an extremely experienced breeder, with a clear goal in mind and using dogs that she has imported or has bred that are part of her long term goal . She will have chosen them very carefully taking into account a myriad of factors including health, temperament, breed type and working ability ...this includes both the young male dog and the bitch of this 'oops ' litter, both of whom will be of excellent quality....as I suspect will be the resulting litter. 

Yes hip scoring is important but it's only a tiny part of the whole package ...and she will know the rest.

ES are a non exaggerated, active breed who do not generally have high hip scores .....I personally don't believe that the young male pup will have hips so horrendous that it would cause future problems for his pups ( and of course she will have him scored once he is old enough ) .

To compare her to the kind of folk who breed in total ignorance of what they are likely to produce either intentionally or accidentally is ridiculous and insulting .

Personally though I do believe that she is pushing against a closed door trying to get her breed established in the UK without KC registration - she simply MUST get other breeders interested in order for the ES to be viable ...it's what we had to do back in the 60's with the BSD and they have not suffered any loss of working ability as a result ....but that's another subject perhaps !. 

Good luck with it all !


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Cigano said:


> Surely a breeder with even a fraction of their experience/years of breeding knowledge would know that you can go get a jab by your vet that will end this untested litter *and it wont have any consequence to your bitch *!


Maybe BECAUSE they are an experienced breeder and thus KNOW the potential consequences to a brood bitch - many of which will have little or no impact on a pet bitch never intended for breeding.

The consequences for brood bitches however can be devastating - far more frequently than previously anticipated rendering the bitch infertile or necessitating the bitch to be neutered urgently.

This can be devastating in more common breeds where obtaining a bitch of similar lines and quality won't take that long in real terms (a few years or longer) - in the OP's breed - you could potentially extend this to never getting another bitch of similar qualities and lines in their lifetime.

Many breeders I know who've used it would NEVER do so again - having rendered bitches infertile, left some with a range of allergy related problems, deformed pups in subsequent litters, no more seasons - the list sadly continues.

Conversely, I know of some breeders who've used it without consequence - nevertheless, I can totally respect a serious breeders reluctance to use it.

I thought one of my girls who won't be bred from again might have been caught on her last season - I sought advice and was told, without exception, to go straight for a neuter - surgery that again carries it's own risks, but considered a preferred option for a bitch at the end of it's breeding life.

Thankfully, my concerned were unfounded, but the advice was clear - this is most certainly not an option for the OP.

========================================

A number of people have alluded to new members coming on here and asking questions after similar accidents - the large majority of these owners don't even know their dogs breeding - - never mind what a health-test is.

Many of them are sentimental for the lives their girls are carrying, viewing a neutering as abortion / murder and believing they have a string of friends and family are going to home the pups - when we all know life simply isn't like this.

===========================

In this instance, the breeder has been made aware that there are steps that can be taken to ascertain the condition of their boys hips - they know their dogs are genetically clear for the conditions specified for their breed, and are going into it with their eyes wide open over the challenges they may well face in terms of finding suitable homes for the pups.

Personally, I think there is a world of difference between the two situations.

And no - NEITHER is ideal - I'm not patting them on the back and saying well done - I do however have my eyes open and my head above the sand inasmuch as I KNOW that ANYONE keeping entire dogs and bitches within their home runs the risk of finding themselves in the same position - there but for the grace of god go I............................

Anyone who believes it can't happen IS burying their head in the sand - saying it hasn't happened in 10/20/30 + years of breeding doesn't mean it won't - because every individual dog and bitch is different in the determination of their desire to be mated.

I've got three bitches here who I believe my boys would take their lives in their hands if they tried mating them even when they are ready for mating - but I still take every opportunity I can to minimise the risks of it even being attempted.

Similarly, I have another bitch here who gets horribly frustrated when the boys won't even try - despite not being ready for mating.

Then you get silent seasons, split seasons (I know someone caught out like this recently, despite never having encountered it in a lifetime of dog breeding). .

A bitch can get pregnant from a blink of the eye slip mating - I know of one who had 14 pups like this (the mating was intentional) - but the point is - this can be missed completely in a chance encounter if the breeder has a few dogs around them.

===========================

I don't think any one of us is saying the situation is ideal - the OP knows this and in an ideal world wouldn't be where they are at this time.

Fortunately there are steps they can take to help mitigate and understand what they may be dealing with in respect of the young male - including prelims on his hips and then official scores around or just after the 8 week mark of the litter - if the hips are good at the prelims - without a significant predisposition to HD -(which would manifest itself in the earlier plates) - there will be no major changes in the hip and plate quality between the two sets of plates.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

kirksandallchins said:


> My main concern is that thee will be lack of demand for the pups - people who want a pup to breed from or work with will probably want one with health tested parents and not take the risk of buying one from the litter. I assume most pet owners do not even know the breed exists
> 
> *I do not know how long x-ray results take to come back*, but if the male was x-rayed at a year old would the results be back in time for when the pups are be to be sold?


When I had my bitch hip scored, the vet rang me next day with their assessment of the plates. The vet said she thought 3/4. The BVA results came back in about 2 1/2 weeks, with an 'official' score of 3/3. That was Moy Farm Vets, Out Rawcliffe, Lancs who specialise in hip scores.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I do not know how long x-ray results take to come back, but if the male was x-rayed at a year old would the results be back in time for when the pups are be to be sold?


I think it's fairly safe to assume that this boy would be hip scored when he was old enough anyway, as he has been bought as part of a breeding plan.
My concern would be that there could, potentially, be a large number of puppies to find homes for in a breed that is not popular (my own breed wouldn't be a problem). Two litters on the ground and the same time, one fully health tested, one with health tests missing. This could, understandably, cause problems for potential buyers. Being offered a puppy from the non health tested litter (or partially non health tested), compared with completely health tested, could put off buyers who have done their homework, and in my experience, the puppy buyers who are as discerning about the puppies they buy, have done their research and are looking for well bred puppies form health tested parents, also turn out to be the best homes - the care they have put into researching and buying their pup seems to be reflected in the care they put into their puppy during it's life.
An xray done now would take no more than a day or two to get the results - probably on the same day. There would then be proof of the hip status. Although not scored and done before the dog has completely matured, the xray would still give a good idea of the condition of the hips so would reassure puppy owners that although not scored, xrays show him to have good hips. As Swarthy says, prelims are often done at 6 months to see how the hips are developing, especially in the US who do not hip score till 2 years.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> When I had my bitch hip scored, the vet rang me next day with their assessment of the plates. The vet said she thought 3/4. The BVA results came back in about 2 1/2 weeks, with an 'official' score of 3/3. That was Moy Farm Vets, Out Rawcliffe, Lancs who specialise in hip scores.


There are quite a few vets (I have heard of these) who are very good at reading hip plates - not so much so for some of them with elbows.

I know most won't give an indicative score because of the potential for being sued if they get it wrong - nevertheless, to a good plate taker - good hips are good hips - poor hips are poor hips - it's probably "middle of the road" hips which will be the hardest to call

It does seem hips are not a major problem in the breed - in their shoes I would be going for prelims and then scoring as soon as possible within the rulings of the BVA - fingers crossed


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

What an unfortunate situation... the health testing is an issue obviously, but my biggest worry, if I were you, would be the number of puppies you could possibly end up with between the two litters... Is there much of a demand for ES pups? There aren't a breed I know much about but my they are gorgeous.

I remember on another forum, a long time member was criticised and ultimately left because they were heavily criticised when an almost identical situation happened. I cannot remember what the exact situation was re. health tests, because she hadn't intended to breed but she got the male done right away and intended to get the bitch done after the litter if I remember rightly (she left though so never found out if she did or how she got on with the litter). The biggest issue some people had was because they saw her bitch as a 'rescue'. She was rehomed because she failed to be a police dog... I guess whether you class that as a 'rescue' is down to personal opinion. I thought it was a very sad situation and I really wish she hadn't been chased off the forum because I would have loved to have seen how the bitch got on with the litter, and seen many pics of puppy cuteness. 

I do agree though that new breeders get it harder... I can imagine the responses I would have if I announced I was breeding from Arrow, and even then I wouldn't be having the actual litter so the reaction if Arrow was a bitch would be far worse. 

Good luck with the litters and please, please show us pics


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

New breeders get a harsher response for many reasons
- because half the time its not a one off.
- because it was anything but an 'accident'.
- because its a situation they will more than likely often find themselves in'
- because they are first time breeders, with little experience and knowledge of breeding or their chosen breed. - Having two litters is VERY hard work, even for those that have been into dog breeding for 20/30 years. If you are new to breeding and decide to have two litters at once, with limited experience and knowledge most know that some if not all of the puppies and not forgetting the bitches will suffer, and miss out on some important factors.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Just to add, can you not get him xrayed now? He's too young to be scored, but it should give you a guide and show any problems if they exist. Not only would you be able to make a more informed decision in the event that there is a problem, but potential owners would have the reassurance that although no hip scores, his xrays show no problems.


That is what I intend to do 


Bijou said:


> my how the wolves are circling ! ...
> 
> here's the reality ..ethical breeding is all about knowledge and this breeder is probably the most knowledgeable person on ES here in the Uk ....she is an extremely experienced breeder, with a clear goal in mind and using dogs that she has imported or has bred that are part of her long term goal . She will have chosen them very carefully taking into account a myriad of factors including health, temperament, breed type and working ability ...this includes both the young male dog and the bitch of this 'oops ' litter, both of whom will be of excellent quality....as I suspect will be the resulting litter.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. There are a couple of people who are interested in breeding, I have been begging and asking for people to help, even in a syndicate - but most people want to sit back and let me do it all 


Burrowzig said:


> When I had my bitch hip scored, the vet rang me next day with their assessment of the plates. The vet said she thought 3/4. The BVA results came back in about 2 1/2 weeks, with an 'official' score of 3/3. That was Moy Farm Vets, Out Rawcliffe, Lancs who specialise in hip scores.


Thats where I thought of straight away when Swarthy suggested it - however I had Izi done there and she was a few points out. (she said 5/4 and it came back as 3/3) Her husband was always spot on. I might just take him to my local vet and ask if he can give an idea on how good they are. Preston is quite a journey for me.


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm really sorry you've ended up in this position  I wish you the best of luck with the two litters and hopefully the outcome will turn out positive


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Thanks for that. There are a couple of people who are interested in breeding, I have been begging and asking for people to help, even in a syndicate - but most people want to sit back and let me do it all


Gosh that's hard going - my breed started out with a syndicate to help with importing the first lines - we then got them onto the import register and then we were able to take them to many shows up and down the country so that other people could meet this new breed - lots of people in Rough Collies, Borders and GSD eventually became owners and breeders of BSD this way and I think this would work with English Shepherds too.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

what an awful situation to be in.... My pup is technically coming from a mismate, but hip, elbow, heart, eye test and DNA profiles had been carried on Dam and Sire previously... So my quandary on this would be, everyone but everyone on the forum rants on about heath test, and that parents should be have all check blah blah blah... So I'm rather shocked to see that this is all being put to the slide lines because it's an experienced breeder and the breed is not well known, I am REALLY shocked to see that some people now think it's ok for people now to BUY pups from unhealth checked parents. I've watched people ripped to shreds in the breeding section about breeding, and ripped to shreds when they are planning to get a pup from someone who has not health tested the parents....

But now it's going to be okay to buy pups where both sets of parents haven't been tested...

It can't be one rule for one and one rule for another...


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Bijou said:


> Gosh that's hard going - my breed started out with a syndicate to help with importing the first lines - we then got them onto the import register and then we were able to take them to many shows up and down the country so that other people could meet this new breed - lots of people in Rough Collies, Borders and GSD eventually became owners and breeders of BSD this way and I think this would work with English Shepherds too.


Maybe the import register IS the way forward - everything else has fallen on deaf ears.....



Meezey said:


> But now it's going to be okay to buy pups where both sets of parents haven't been tested...
> 
> It can't be one rule for one and one rule for another...


You have obviously not read this thread.......


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

luvmydogs said:


> Maybe the import register IS the way forward - everything else has fallen on deaf ears.....
> 
> You have obviously not read this thread.......


I have you have an 8 month old Sire who has not been hip scored, you plan to get an x ray but not a hip score? Did I miss something?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I have you have an 8 month old Sire who has not been hip scored, you plan to get an x ray but not a hip score? Did I miss something?


Yes, you did miss something. He will be xrayed so I know his hips are ok, and then he will be hipscored as soon as he is a year old. You also said both parents. The dam is fully tested.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

luvmydogs said:


> Yes, you did miss something. He will be xrayed so I know his hips are ok, and then he will be hipscored as soon as he is a year old. You also said both parents. The dam is fully tested.


Yes of course if only the dam is tested them of course both of parents aren't scored only one is...

I still find it one rule for one and one for another..... that's for me is wrong. People can't tear in to people for not carrying out all heath test, or buying from breeder where the parents aren't scored be it one or both.... but then say it's okay for a experience breed to do it, and then say to people it's acceptable to buy pups from someone who hasn't hipscored... Then of course people could say well why should I hip score I can just get a Vet to x ray and guestimate...


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh gawd this has been done to death now. reread the thread if you want. And as I have JUST SAID, he WILL be scored when he is a year old!!!!!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Yes of course if only the dam is tested them of course both of parents aren't scored only one is...
> 
> I still find it one rule for one and one for another..... that's for me is wrong. People can't tear in to people for not carrying out all heath test, or buying from breeder where the parents aren't scored be it one or both.... but then say it's okay for a experience breed to do it, and then say to people it's acceptable to buy pups from someone who hasn't hipscored... Then of course people could say well why should I hip score I can just get a Vet to x ray and guestimate...


Hang on - that's not what's being said here at all. If you read the thread you will see the sire is currently too young to be hip scored. He will be done as soon as he is a year old. In the meantime X-rays will give an estimate of his hips. The OP is being very responsible.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

luvmydogs said:


> Oh gawd this has been done to death now. reread the thread if you want. And as I have JUST SAID, he WILL be scored when he is a year old!!!!!


I have read the thread, and the point IS that you and some others seem to find that acceptable, yet, if it was someone else who came on here and said it they would be ripped to shreds...

Just saying I can't stand double standards...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Hang on - that's not what's being said here at all. If you read the thread you will see the sire is currently too young to be hip scored. He will be done as soon as he is a year old. In the meantime X-rays will give an estimate of his hips. The OP is being very responsible.


I'm not missing the point... I understand the sire is 8 months and that he will be xrayed, and he will be hip scored, totally not missing that point.. What I am saying is it's double standards, because if someone else other than experienced breeder came on here and said the same thing they would be ripped to shreds.

They wouldn't get the chance to be responsible, because they would have been berated for the mating taking place, and wouldn't have got chance to make themselves responsible because once they rejected the injection option they would have been set upon.

It's great the OP is being responsible, it's just a shame others aren't given the same chances to rectify their mistakes just saying...


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Bijou said:


> here's the reality ..ethical breeding is all about knowledge and this breeder is probably the most knowledgeable person on ES here in the Uk ....she is an extremely experienced breeder, with a clear goal in mind and using dogs that she has imported or has bred that are part of her long term goal . She will have chosen them very carefully taking into account a myriad of factors including health, temperament, breed type and working ability ...this includes both the young male dog and the bitch of this 'oops ' litter, both of whom will be of excellent quality....as I suspect will be the resulting litter.
> 
> Yes hip scoring is important but it's only a tiny part of the whole package ...and she will know the rest.
> 
> ...


Did you read this??


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Meezey said:


> I'm not missing the point... I understand the sire is 8 months and that he will be xrayed, and he will be hip scored, totally not missing that point.. What I am saying is it's double standards, because if someone else other than experienced breeder came on here and said the same thing they would be ripped to shreds.
> 
> They wouldn't get the chance to be responsible, because they would have been berated for the mating taking place, and wouldn't have got chance to make themselves responsible because once they rejected the injection option they would have been set upon.
> 
> It's great the OP is being responsible, it's just a shame others aren't given the same chances to rectify their mistakes just saying...


I think you'll find the type of people you're talking about wouldn't even know what a hip score was! What we're talking about in this case is an experienced breeder who knows the breed, and who has, and probably with very good reason, already chosen the sire as a future stud dog. Not an accidental mating with 'the dog down the road'.

Also, if you read this thread I brought up the point that 'reputable' and 'experienced' breeders don't always do all the necessary tests, but still have a waiting list for their pups as people assume, possibly at the expense of newcomers who want to do their best for the breed, that their experience makes up for the lack of tests.

I think the OP is doing the best she can in the circumstances. If she said hip scores weren't important that would be one thing, but she has not said that. It's also been said that ESs don't have too much of a problem with hips. This I can relate to, as (wrongly in my view) many established breeders of Irish Setters do not hip score as problems are not so common.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

luvmydogs said:


> Did you read this??


Yes? You are missing the point it's not directed at just you, but at the people who jump all over others about breeding... As soon as a litter is mentioned in any shape or form the first question people ask is about health test, always, then they go on and on and on and on about it, so it's acceptable for some to make mistakes but not others... i

It's great that someone knows you on the forum and can vouch for you, but many who come on here aren't afforded the same courtesy nor do they get given the opportunity to make it right ... So yes it can happen to anyone, and it does, so many people should remember that before ripping other's to shreds 

Double standards in all respects....


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Yes? You are missing the point it's not directed at just you, but at the people who jump all over others about breeding... As soon as a litter is mentioned in any shape or form the first question people ask is about health test, always, then they go on and on and on and on about it, so it's acceptable for some to make mistakes but not others... i
> 
> It's great that someone knows you on the forum and can vouch for you, but many who come on here aren't afforded the same courtesy nor do they get given the opportunity to make it right ... So yes it can happen to anyone, and it does, so many people should remember that before ripping other's to shreds
> 
> Double standards in all respects....


It's not double standards AT ALL - if someone comes on the forum and is willing to take the steps required to see through what is required to make it a responsible mating - they DO get support.

Similarly, people who are researching and want to breed in the future get support - where they don't - it is generally from pet owners who never have, and never likely to ever breed a litter.

================================

There is also a HUGE difference between an accidental mating between "Arthur and Martha" who may or may not be related (or even the same breed) which has happened because the owner didn't know when the season ended (or didn't think a brother / sister - mother / son would mate) - and a well thought out breeding programme in which the breeder has made a considerable investment both financially and emotionally.

They have thought out the best pairings, the best lines - they've imported dogs and have a clear strategy as to where they are going and where they want to be.

In addition to this - they are in a rather unique position that they are just one of a miniscule number of breeders of this breed - not like Labs or Cockers or GSD - and if the breed does expand and become recognised in the UK - they will ultimately go down in history as one of the founding forefathers of establishing the breed here - that's some achievement, and whilst many breeds have incredible histories, I doubt that many of them were based on such a well structured and thought out approach at their inception -

That isn't the fault of anyone specific - it's a recognition that the tools available to them now are far superior to the tools available when many other breeds became officially recognised.

I'm not going to get into the whys and wherefores of peoples' and the OPs opinion on whether the breed will become established and formally recognised - whilst I recognise some of the concerns the OP may have - as Bijou states through their own breed history - you don't have to sacrifice one in favour of another - you CAN have both - but that's a discussion for another day. I do believe that for longevity and sustainability - formal recognition has to be the way to go - whether it happens now or in 10 years time.

-------------------------------

Would be breeders willing to "put their money where their mouth is" and to do the responsible thing will get support from others on the site.

Even people who don't take on board peoples' comments and fight their own corner about their right to continue with an accidental litter WILL AND DO get support from other PF members if they take the flack and stick around.

Any discussion on breeding will always be emotive - it doesn't matter if you are the best breeder in the world, there will always be people who don't agree with it - how many times have we seen a moratorium on breeding called for to reduce the pressures on rescue - when in truth - it is the puppy farmers, the back yard breeders, and whether we like it or not - many of the poorly thought out litters of prospective members on this site are the ones that cause the majority of rescue problems.

Yes, responsibly bred pups do end up in rescue for all sorts of reasons - I'm not saying they don't - but they continue to constitute only a small proportion of their users - with the simple fact being that litters bred by the OP are far less likely to than many of the whoops litters heard from new members of this, and similar forums.

=====================

I should also add that the OP is ACUTELY aware that there is the potential here for struggling to find homes for the pups - how many times do we see owners of "whoops litters" saying they have friend and family who will take the pups off their hands - life isn't like that.

=======================

Sometimes frustrations DO spill over onto new members - I can remember one would be Lab breeder whose older bitch was caught by their young dog (similar situation to this one) - Ok - it got caught 0 because "he simply couldn't keep them apart".

What I found amazing about this snippet of information is he was able to keep them apart right up to the day the bitch was ready for mating - then was able to keep them apart for a further 48 hours until the dogs "accidentally got together again" - just as if it was a "real planned mating" - is someone telling me neither the dog or bitch had any yearning to be with each other on the day in-between - or the day after the 2nd mating - RUBBISH - I don't believe it for one second - it's stories like that which frustrate - why not just come clean?

===================

As an aside, I noted that some people have referred to breeds where hip-scoring is no longer required - this has happened across a few breeds lately it seems, including some giant breeds which has surprised me.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sorry I'm very late to the thread and know almost nothing of breeding but with AI in humans it increases the chances of multiple births [twins etc] so would think with dogs the litters may be larger too


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Sorry I'm very late to the thread and know almost nothing of breeding but with AI in humans it increases the chances of multiple births [twins etc] so would think with dogs the litters may be larger too


lol that's because they give the woman ovulation boosters. Dora's ovulation was not boosted and we used frozen semen so she is much more likely to produce a smaller litter.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

luvmydogs said:


> lol that's because they give the woman ovulation boosters. Dora's ovulation was not boosted and we used frozen semen so she is much more likely to produce a smaller litter.


Oh okay - thanks for the explanation of that 

All the best with your litters and finding homes for the pups - I'd love have an ES - they seem like such a beautiful breed - but working dogs are not for my lifestyle sadly


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Oh okay - thanks for the explanation of that
> 
> All the best with your litters and finding homes for the pups - I'd love have an ES - they seem like such a beautiful breed - but working dogs are not for my lifestyle sadly


Thank you  and most owners don't work them here


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Meezey said:


> Yes of course if only the dam is tested them of course both of parents aren't scored only one is...
> 
> I still find it one rule for one and one for another..... that's for me is wrong. People can't tear in to people for not carrying out all heath test, or buying from breeder where the parents aren't scored be it one or both.... but then say it's okay for a experience breed to do it, and then say to people it's acceptable to buy pups from someone who hasn't hipscored... Then of course people could say well why should I hip score I can just get a Vet to x ray and guestimate...


how many people buy a pup from unhealth tested parents?? most. some potential buyers haven't a clue what health testing is , they think vet tested is fine and thats iT! Most people wouldn't have the guts to admit this has happened and i for one applaud MLd, who had the guts to come on here and explain what has happened.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Meezey said:


> I have read the thread, and the point IS that you and some others seem to find that acceptable, yet, if it was someone else who came on here and said it they would be ripped to shreds...
> 
> Just saying I can't stand double standards...


for a newbie you are well clued up on this subject .


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dexter said:


> how many people buy a pup from unhealth tested parents?? most. some potential buyers haven't a clue what health testing is , they think vet tested is fine and thats iT! Most people wouldn't have the guts to admit this has happened and i for one applaud MLd, who had the guts to come on here and explain what has happened.


Yes people do admit it and get ripped to shreds for it  that is my point


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dexter said:


> for a newbie you are well clued up on this subject .


And your point is?????


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I very much doubt it.
> 
> I dont think there are many hip scores going back to the early nineties and not in most breeds.
> I don't think it is that popular now either. When you think of how many KC pups are born and how many from health tested parents.


hip scoring started in the 70s I believe.

I cant believe this thread. Why on earth are people so snipey and horrible. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bitches whelping at around the same time. Yes, it is harder work but a lot of breeders will have more than one litter on the go. Considering bitches often bring each other into season it will surely often happen that 2 bitches with planned matings will inevitably end up whelping at around the same time. that is not the same thing at all as purposely breeding several bitches at the same time just to make money (and often different breeds)

As for the lack of hip scoring - well there are more litters born to non health tested parents than to health tested ones. The dog is going to be done anyway.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

luvmydogs said:


> Think what you like. Things can and do happen out of ones control at times. It has not happened to me before in 25 years of breeding. Do you really think I would choose to have two litters at once? Don't answer, I'm not interested.


Looks like things went a little awry for you, I'm sure stuff like this happens just to test our mettle and I'm sure you will manage - at least you're not inexperienced and just starting out.

Having two litters at the same time is not necessarily a bad thing. If something bad happens (god forbid!) to either one of the dams you will have a spare - so to speak - and you might as well look after two litters as one. With good luck and a following wind the litters won't be born at exactly the same time either and will be of a managable size.

Good luck!


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## Cigano (Apr 4, 2013)

Sorry guys but in my book it dont matter wether your an experienced breeder or your not , bottom line is the OP who should know better is still gonna go ahead with an untested litter regardless risk just like any other novice breeder does.
Over the years I have known plenty of people that have had the mismate jab with no consequence, and they have even had biggish litters after with the same bitch. 
Is there any proof that the mismate jab causes any harm ? 
If there is i would be very interested what the % of risk is etc..we are never to old to learn are we 

I guess my gripe is not necessarily with the OP , hand on heart i wish her the best with the litter and future ones, no doubt next time she will be more careful whos she leaves in charge of her in season bitches .

My gripe is more to do with out and out snobbery of forums like this that would give a novice breeder the good news with both barrels so fast it would make their heads spin if they had made a thread like this.

Like i said different strokes for different folks i guess


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

luvmydogs said:


> Thank you  and most owners don't work them here


I'm sure they don't - perhaps an avenue to explore though if they can be used for herding and suchlike - there's always demand for good farm dogs or so I thought

I meant more the requirements of having a working-type dog while I work full time


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

Blimey I feel truly sorry for the OP for even daring to put this thread up.She has been torn to shreds, from what I have read she is a responsible,experienced breeder.A mistake happened that wasnt her fault,yet so many have torn her apart for it. I have only been coming on here for less than a year,but the dog snobbery is unbelievable.Of course I would never agree with BYB or PF but for goodness sake its not a hanging offence for a mistake to happen. Im a great believer in re homing dogs rather than get a pup,but no one knows what their getting when you rehome a dog.For goodness sake some of you get a grip, the OP hasnt murdered anyone :

Good luck to you Luvmydogs,you have your work cut out,but Im 100% sure you know that already.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

blossom21 said:


> Blimey I feel truly sorry for the OP for even daring to put this thread up.She has been torn to shreds, from what I have read she is a responsible,experienced breeder.A mistake happened that wasnt her fault,yet so many have torn her apart for it. I have only been coming on here for less than a year,but the dog snobbery is unbelievable.Of course I would never agree with BYB or PF but for goodness sake its not a hanging offence for a mistake to happen. Im a great believer in re homing dogs rather than get a pup,but no one knows what their getting when you rehome a dog.For goodness sake some of you get a grip, the OP hasnt murdered anyone :
> 
> Good luck to you Luvmydogs,you have your work cut out,but Im 100% sure you know that already.


Thanks. TBH it has been no worse than expected, and it is lovely to see that the experienced breeders can see my point of view.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Tbf most of the breeders that get jumped on by some members are those posting about their....

(For example).....Bitch that was left unattended in season in the garden and the local randy dog breaking in and getting said bitch pregnant...couldnt afford mismate jabs...so letting the bitch whelp:mad5:

And other ridiculous scenarios where members just get sick of hearing the waffle and jump in and have a go...its kind of expected on a dog lovers forum. I do tend to think "be nice" so as to avoid alienating the OP (in such circumstances) and in turn prevent the bitch benefitting from any support /advice that we, as a forum, are able to provide.

OP couldnt be more different from the type of irritating scenario mentioned above...hence the positive response (mostly) that she has received.

So it isnt a case of treating OP differently at all...she clearly has the knowledge and experience to responsibly care for any pups created. The response the OP has received..imho..is wholly appropriate (except for the doubters but they..of course..have a right to their opinion..same as everyone else)


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks. TBH it has been no worse than expected, and it is lovely to see that the experienced breeders can see my point of view.


And in my case, not an experienced breeder, but someone who is considering possibly breeding in the future.

Now getting ready to duck!


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I've been on your website before - English Shepherds look and sound like a truly stunning breed.  xx

Your dedication to this breed has been obvious from the minute I came on to this forum. 

I truly wish you well and shall be keeping an eye out for updates.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Sorry I'm very late to the thread and know almost nothing of breeding but with AI in humans it increases the chances of multiple births [twins etc] so would think with dogs the litters may be larger too


That's not AI, it's in vitro fertilisation, where normally more than 1 embryo is implanted in the hope that 1 would 'take'. My friend ended up with triplets!
The ovulation boosters come beforehand, to produce multiple eggs for fertilisation.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Pretty sure I've heard several times that AI in canines tends to produce smaller litters.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

She'll be scanned in an hour or so!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Good luck for a small litter! Although the scans are never 100%.

How about contacting the dog magazines and having a profile on the breed in them? Sorry if it is silly, just a thought!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Meezey said:


> And your point is?????


self explanatory


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> She'll be scanned in an hour or so!


Good luck with the scan


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

cinammontoast said:


> Pretty sure I've heard several times that AI in canines tends to produce smaller litters.


You would have thought so wouldn't you 

Not wanting to frighten the OP - but my latest pup is from a chilled semen AI litter - where the litter size was treble dads average litter size in the UK 

I was there during whelping and each time she (rather too effortlessly including when sleeping) delivered another one, then another one - you began to wonder if she was ever going to stop - but she did stop at 9 

She had been panting and restless on and off for a few days - but her first pup - she was literally laying on the settee - arched her back - gave a little yelp - and hey presto - puppy number 1 was here - this continued (without the yelping) for the next 8 pups (including one where she was fast asleep)  starting at 7am (ish) she was done by mid afternoon and didn't dig once 

LMG - Good luck with the scan.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dexter said:


> self explanatory


Well obviously not if l'm asking? So do feel free to elaborate, or let me guess are you hinting at some kind of conspiracy theory, don't be shy spit it out


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Just had Dora scanned. She is definitely pregnant, the scanner said she could see about seven.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

swarthy said:


> You would have thought so wouldn't you
> 
> Not wanting to frighten the OP - but my latest pup is from a chilled semen AI litter - where the litter size was treble dads average litter size in the UK
> 
> ...


was that using frozen semen Swarthy? Dora just popped her first pup out in her bed last time, no digging, not panting, nothing. And she had eaten a full meal beforehand! She had 10 pups last time.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Good luck for a small litter! Although the scans are never 100%.
> 
> How about contacting the dog magazines and having a profile on the breed in them? Sorry if it is silly, just a thought!


tried that, they never even got back in touch. I've been on TV talking about them 3 times too!


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

luvmydogs said:


> Just had Dora scanned. She is definitely pregnant, the scanner said she could see about seven.


Well at least it's not in the teens....unless the scanner got it very wrong (i know there is always a margin of error).


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I must admit my tum is doing back flips now!! I really wanted this litter, the sire is fab, but having two litters has tarnished it a bit.....


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Meezey said:


> Well obviously not if l'm asking? So do feel free to elaborate, or let me guess are you hinting at some kind of conspiracy theory, don't be shy spit it out


conspiracay roflmao. i don't spit and i aint shy


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Just had Dora scanned. She is definitely pregnant, the scanner said she could see about seven.


no too bad then 
what date are the due ?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I must admit my tum is doing back flips now!! I really wanted this litter, the sire is fab, but having two litters has tarnished it a bit.....


you'll be fine  what colours will you be expecting from both of the litters?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> tried that, they never even got back in touch. I've been on TV talking about them 3 times too!


Worth another try. You never know.

I would phone the offices, I always get a better response by phone then emails.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Just had Dora scanned. She is definitely pregnant, the scanner said she could see about seven.


Congratulations! Can't wait to see this litter  What colours are you expecting as the sire is Sable isn't he?

Not sure of colour genetics so not sure what is dominant etc


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dexter said:


> conspiracay roflmao. i don't spit and i aint shy


Okay your boring me now, if you can't say what you mean don't make stupid cryptic comments, or is it you just don't like "newbies" having a say?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

7th May Izi, 21st May Dora.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> was that using frozen semen Swarthy? Dora just popped her first pup out in her bed last time, no digging, not panting, nothing. And she had eaten a full meal beforehand! She had 10 pups last time.


That was using Chilled semen - the sire was only in the Netherlands - so had the breeder been a bit further East of the country - it would have even be possible to meet up with the stud owner.

The bitch was pre-mate tested by her own vet on the Saturday and told she would be ready Monday (needless to say shipping over the weekend wasn't an option) - the stud owner is also a vet - so the two vets were put in direct contact with each other.

The semen was shipped on the Monday arriving at the vets Tuesday lunchtime - the bitch was pre-mated at the fertility specialist vets on that day - and the first AI performed.

The bitch went back the following morning for the second insemination.

The same vet confirmed pregnancy by scan 5 weeks later - we could see 5 on the scan - she went on (as above) to have 9.

I have found vet scans to typically be around half the number of pups due (sheep scanners are I'm told much more reliable - I just don't know any) - in my own three litters we have seen 4 - had 8, 4 had 9 (lost 1) and 2 (had 7, lost 1) and of course this bitch - saw 5 had 9.

ETA - interesting to note the similar method of seemingly effortless delivery


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Meezey said:


> Okay your boring me now, if you can't say what you mean don't make stupid cryptic comments, or is it you just don't like "newbies" having a say?


have no issues with anyone .sticks n stones lmao . .


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> 7th May Izi, 21st May Dora.


not too close then  they'll be fun over BH


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Colours expected from both litters - sable,(like Stan), clear sable (like Koda), B&T, tricolour, brindle with tri or B&T, and maybe B&W or even solid black.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Colours expected from both litters - sable,(like Stan), clear sable (like Koda), B&T, tricolour, brindle with tri or B&T, and maybe B&W or even solid black.


i think you should be posting piccies of your doglets so we can See the colours!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Colours expected from both litters - sable,(like Stan), clear sable (like Koda), B&T, tricolour, brindle with tri or B&T, and maybe B&W or even solid black.


I'm so tempted to say keep me a clear sable......


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I'm so tempted to say keep me a clear sable......


Thats the most popular colour, however we are not absolutely sure Dora will produce it (Izi definitely won't). She does have one clear sable in her pedigree so we'll see.......


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Swarthy - we only did one AI, and used frozen semen, so I really thought it would be a small litter lol.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> i think you should be posting piccies of your doglets so we can See the colours!


OK; Dora, Stan, Izi, Koda:


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> OK; Dora, Stan, Izi, Koda:


that 1st pic of wee dora is Stunning; may i thieve her please!?!?! 
:001_tt1: :001_tt1: :001_tt1:



Burrowzig said:


> I'm so tempted to say keep me a clear sable......


i'm SOO tempted to say the same... or a B&T, or a stan... or any puppy...
but i'm practicing self-restraint


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> I'm so tempted to say keep me a clear sable......


Bagsy a clear sable boy 

When I was researching the breed I decided on a clear sable bob tail but the cost of importing was far too much to be practical. I do love the clear sable, it is my favourite colour!


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Stan is stunning!!!

He reminds me of my old child hood dog


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> OK; Dora, Stan, Izi, Koda:


I rather like Dora and Izi.Very pretty girlies.Koda puts me in mind of what a Border Collie cross Rough Collie might look like.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

They are so gorgeous!! :001_wub:

I love Stan's colouring - but obviously I will always have a soft spot for tri-coloured doglets lol.

And yes - they sort of *do* remind me of a Rough x BC! Which is a huge compliment given the way I feel about these breeds! Met a beautiful BC today who gave me his paw for a treat once he realised I was a soft touch. 

Rooting for you here and sending Derbyshire vibes xx  xx


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh, they are all gorgeous! :001_wub: Although, I have to say that Stan and Koda are my favourites


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Oh my 


Good luck LMD , i hope people help you out lots. Love Koda's colouring


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Stan was x-rayed yesterday. The vet said he has excellent hips, very tight.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Stan was x-rayed yesterday. The vet said he has excellent hips, very tight.


What a relief :thumbup:

Now you can relax ............... for one minute , until the hard work really begins :scared:


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

The clear sable is gorgeous, cant find any pics of a brindle though (or what I think are brindle) but i'd be interested to see one of those. Such a shame i'm not in a position to have another dog otherwise i'd have my name down on your list!


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Stan was x-rayed yesterday. The vet said he has excellent hips, very tight.


That's brilliant news!! It must be a big relief  I'm looking forward to lots of puppy pictures


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## Cigano (Apr 4, 2013)

luvmydogs said:


> Stan was x-rayed yesterday. The vet said he has excellent hips, very tight.


well done ,but as you was still ready to roll the dice on such a risky mating you must be very relieved that only slight harm was done to your reputation as a breeder ? 
I do hope valuable lessons have beed learned for such a breeder that claims the higher moral ground ?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Great news but then you pretty much knew it would be since you know so much about your breed and the ancestry. Don't envy the work load ahead of you though, lol.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Cigano said:


> well done ,but as you was still ready to roll the dice on such a risky mating you must be very relieved that only slight harm was done to your reputation as a breeder ?
> I do hope valuable lessons have beed learned for such a breeder that claims the higher moral ground ?


lmao I don't feel any harm has been done to my reputation (maybe in your eyes, but I'll get over that  ) 
Since when have I ever claimed the moral high ground?? 

Thanks so much for the good wishes everyone, but as Malmum said, I pretty much knew his hips would be good.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Stan was x-rayed yesterday. The vet said he has excellent hips, very tight.


So pleased for you.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Just caught up with all this! Glad his hips are all good! Good luck with two litters- pics are a must!!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Luvmydogs......please don't take any notice of negative responses to the circumstances of your last dogs mating. 

You'll find that experienced breeders and dog owners understand these things happen sometimes, no matter how careful you are, and they can also see how committed you are to your chosen breed. 

It's the inexperienced pet owner with idealistic views of dog ownership and breeding who give the most negative remarks. 

I'm pleased Stan had a good hip X-ray, and again good luck with both litters


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Cigano said:


> well done ,but as you was still ready to roll the dice on such a risky mating you must be very relieved that only slight harm was done to your reputation as a breeder ?
> I do hope valuable lessons have beed learned for such a breeder that claims the higher moral ground ?


OMG are you for real

I think your post shows great ignorance tbh...mind you...I doubt the OP was looking for your approval on her ethics so not to worry.......


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> The clear sable is gorgeous, cant find any pics of a brindle though (or what I think are brindle) but i'd be interested to see one of those. Such a shame i'm not in a position to have another dog otherwise i'd have my name down on your list!


Here are pups with brindling (it comes out in the tan parts)


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Here are pups with brindling (it comes out in the tan parts)


They're gorgeous! :001_wub:


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Here are pups with brindling (it comes out in the tan parts)


Now i really do like those,they are gorgeous.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Here are pups with brindling (it comes out in the tan parts)


They are gorgeous and look stunning! Can't wait to find out what you have in your litters


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