# Older dog bit new puppy...



## vivadanilson (Jan 14, 2015)

Hi. This is my first post on any forum so please bare with me...

We have a beautiful 2 year old female yorkie, she is mischievous and has been completely and utterly spoiled by us.
We decided to get another (female) yorkie (8 weeks old) and we picked her up this morning.
We brought the puppy home and she has been great, nervous around our other yorkie at first but then playing and play fighting etc. everything was going great.
Then out of nowhere the 2 year old lashed out and bit her on the ear. No warning, no nothing. It didn't draw blood but it was hard enough to pull the puppy with her when we tried to pull her off.
She has now attempted to do similar lash outs on 2 more occasions. We feel utterly deflated and worried. Granted its only been one day and probably started better than we ever could have hoped for.
Is this sounding like the normal 'chain of command' stuff or is it something else that I need to be worrying about?
As naive as it may sound, I just want them to play together and be friends...

Any help/advice/moral support appreciated!!!!

Thanks.

Dan


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi Dan and welcome to PF! 

It could be that the puppy just got a bit OTT for your other dog and was telling her 'enough'. As it is the first time I wouldn't be too worried, just ensure they both have time away from each other as well as with each other.

How were they introduced? Was it within the home or on neutral ground?


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## vivadanilson (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks for your reply.

I took the 2yr old out for a long walk while the puppy was settled into the house. The pup was then there when the 2 yr old returned. As I say, everything was absolutely fine for hours. They were eating and drinking together and getting on. Then the lash out(s) occurred. Fingers crossed it was a "this is my territory, I'm in charge" thing, although it just appeared strange as it was completely out the blue when they were both just sitting on the sofa.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

first it's very early days so don't panic. 
the fact that blood wasn't drawn means she probably did use bite inhibition and didn't actually at this point want to hurt the puppy.

you say they were chilled out on the sofa? I have added an adult rescue girl to our home a couple of years ago, our established girl will resource guard us and the best spots on the sofa, to me it sounds like your existing girl may be doing something similar.
Our girl will growl and posture at our rescue to tell her to get away - if she does this I simply put her on the floor and say no, she calms immediately and is then invited back up to share the space and us with our other dog.
However I may not be the best person to advise as 2 years in and she still does it


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

If your older girl had meant to hurt the puppy, she really would have.

An older bitch will often feel the need to teach a puppy some manners. 

I have a six year old JR bitch and she will only tolerate so much from a pup before she'll nip. The fact that you were relaxing on the sofa when this bite happened may just have been your bitch saying to the pup "I've played with you, I've shared food with you, I've tolerated you, but now we have to be quiet". Really, as simple as that.

Just be vigilant, read the signs when the pup is maybe pushing her boundaries too far and be ready to step in and call a halt.

I don't think you have much to worry about at the moment.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The key word is "hours"

Dogs, like people, often need respite from others.

Ensure there is a crate where either can escape from the other.

All my dogs (with the exception of one) have wanted to kill the "intruder" in the first couple of weeks, after this time I never had any issues.

Stop Poking Grandma! What's Fair Between Older Dogs & Puppies | Suzanne Clothier


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Whats your 2 year old like with other dogs?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

vivadanilson said:


> Hi. This is my first post on any forum so please bare with me...
> 
> We have a beautiful 2 year old female yorkie, she is mischievous and has been completely and utterly spoiled by us.
> We decided to get another (female) yorkie (8 weeks old) and we picked her up this morning.
> ...


I would not panic just yet. Did the puppy yelp when your older dog bit him? And if he did, did your older dog let go? These are two important questions because it tells us humble humans whether the older dog meant to hurt the pup and it tells whether the pup was really hurt. In my opinion, you should not have tried to pull him off. In that situation I would give a loud clap of the hands and 'enough!' or words to that effect. Physical contact is a last resort, because your dog will see that as a challenge.

Puppies are often a trial to an older dog; they do not know when to stop and it is up to you to see signs of your older dog getting uncomfortable and intervene at that point, not wait until he has to sort it out himself. Don't scold the older dog for this; he has no other way of telling the pup enough is enough.

It is very important that you make more fuss of your older dog, that you always greet him first, that you make sure all your visitors greet him first. He must be made to know that he is still the most important person until he settles with having this new companion.


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## vivadanilson (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks so much for all the replies/advice. I think we are going to give them as much time apart as they have together. We are showering them both with lots of affection!
Our 2yr old has nipped at the pup a further 2 times but its only when the pup is with my fiancée. She is obviously the favourite &#128554; and the 2yr old appears to be very protective over her. Could this be the case?

Sounds a silly question but is this something that will just stop over time once she has gotten used to the pup being 'part of the family'????


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

vivadanilson said:


> Thanks so much for all the replies/advice. I think we are going to give them as much time apart as they have together. We are showering them both with lots of affection!
> Our 2yr old has nipped at the pup a further 2 times but its only when the pup is with my fiancée. She is obviously the favourite &#55357;&#56874; and the 2yr old appears to be very protective over her. Could this be the case?
> 
> Sounds a silly question but is this something that will just stop over time once she has gotten used to the pup being 'part of the family'????


You haven't said if she likes other dogs in general? That is a crucial question I think. If she does, and she hasn't seriously hurt the pup, just given her a warning, she will likely get used to her. I do think it is extremely important to make sure she gets greeted first, any treats she gets hers first. Keep that up for a few months until she has forgotten she was ever an only dog.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

vivadanilson said:


> Thanks so much for all the replies/advice. I think we are going to give them as much time apart as they have together. We are showering them both with lots of affection!
> Our 2yr old has nipped at the pup a further 2 times but its only when the pup is with my fiancée. She is obviously the favourite 😪 and the 2yr old appears to be very protective over her. Could this be the case?
> 
> Sounds a silly question but is this something that will just stop over time once she has gotten used to the pup being 'part of the family'????


See my last question

Does your 2 year old like other dogs?


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

That's what I've missed about this forum...the advice on here is great. I can't add much to this really just anted to say the same as everyone else, don't panic. I've introduced 2 new additions to my old girl now and she's done the same...even if you don't see it there's probably be a reason for her telling your puppy off. When I got Penny she did nothing but jump all over Fizz and in the end Fizz barked really loudly and nipped her, I don't even think she connected to be honest but it was enough for penny to realise she was being a pain in the bum...I had Penny from 5 weeks (for a V good reason and vet assisted) and Fizz ended up teaching her everything she knows. I bought molly into the home a couple of months ago and Molly is an even bigger pain in the bum haha...and the same thing is happening...but this time it's Penny doing most of the teaching, when you have more than one dog in a house they have to find their own pecking order and they do...babies learn things from their mums and when they leave mummy they still need their manners polishing up, give it a few weeks and they'll be getting on like a house on fire with a bit of luck


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

if this is only happening when there's a certain person involved I'd consider the possibility that it's a resource guarding issue rather than the pup being told off appropriately. Which will definitely need addressing if it is as it's more likely to escalate than stop. Nothing to do with being protective over someone and everything to do with not wanting to share a valuable resource (the attention of that particular human, the toy, the food, the space, whatever).


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Clare7435 said:


> That's what I've missed about this forum...the advice on here is great. I can't add much to this really just anted to say the same as everyone else, don't panic. I've introduced 2 new additions to my old girl now and she's done the same...even if you don't see it there's probably be a reason for her telling your puppy off. When I got Penny she did nothing but jump all over Fizz and in the end Fizz barked really loudly and nipped her, I don't even think she connected to be honest but it was enough for penny to realise she was being a pain in the bum...I had Penny from 5 weeks (for a V good reason and vet assisted) and Fizz ended up teaching her everything she knows. I bought molly into the home a couple of months ago and Molly is an even bigger pain in the bum haha...and the same thing is happening...but this time it's Penny doing most of the teaching, when you have more than one dog in a house they have to find their own pecking order and they do...babies learn things from their mums and when they leave mummy they still need their manners polishing up, give it a few weeks and they'll be getting on like a house on fire with a bit of luck


Ordinarily I would agree with this advice too
And while its likely correct I think everyone apart from newsfiesmum has been a bit previous as we haven't actually found out the OPs older dog actually likes other dogs


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> Ordinarily I would agree with this advice too
> And while its likely correct I think everyone apart from newsfiesmum has been a bit previous as we haven't actually found out the OPs older dog actually likes other dogs


Yeh I just read that, I assumed the older one did because mine where introduced before they even came to me so I just assume everyone does the same lol


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Clare7435 said:


> Yeh I just read that, I assumed the older one did because mine where introduced before they even came to me so I just assume everyone does the same lol


Sadly, not in my experience


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ferdie was two when I got Joshua at eight weeks and he adored him right from the word go. He did tell him off once when he had had enough, but Ferdie loved other dogs. That was one reason I got him a friend because being so big most of the other dogs ran away from him and he just wanted to play with them. I would never have got a puppy if my resident dog did not generally like other dogs; that is asking for trouble.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Ferdie was two when I got Joshua at eight weeks and he adored him right from the word go. He did tell him off once when he had had enough, but Ferdie loved other dogs. That was one reason I got him a friend because being so big most of the other dogs ran away from him and he just wanted to play with them. I would never have got a puppy if my resident dog did not generally like other dogs; that is asking for trouble.


Very true, that's one of the reasons I was looking for another dog before I found Molly, Penny loves other dogs and likes to play but because Fizz is old now she just can't cope with Pennys playfulness, best option was to find a friend  I would no way have been able to do it if Fizz and Penny didn't get along with other dogs though


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Whether a dog tolerates "other" dogs does not necessarily have any bearing on how it may react to a dog (or any other animal) in its household.

There are plenty of dogs which will kill cats outside the house and curl up with housemates.

The same is true re same species.

There is not necessarily any correlation


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My older dog is fine with dogs outside and used to enjoy doggy day care. He hated having a puppy in the house. Three years later he would love it if she moved out although he tolerates her and occasionally plays.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

My dogs would eat cats outside the house if I let them but in the house my cat beats the crap out of them and they let her


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Roxy's not great with other dogs but is amazing with Archer; plays with him but let him now when he's over stepped the mark.

Toby's not fussed with other dogs ... & hes not fussed with Archer really but again, is surprisingly tolerant


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

You need to give them more time. Remember your dog was an only dog, and then suddenly you've introduced a naughty toddler!

Dogs will tell off puppies, and they need to be told off for them to learn what is appropriate behaviour. However some dogs don't tell off appropriately, meaning they either let the pups get away with things they shouldn't, leading you to intervene, or they tell them off inappropriately - which may be happening with your two. If the telling off is only happening in one specific circumstance, I'd definitely address it.

Make sure your older dog gets time away from the pup, as they aren't only tiring for us humans! 

I'd make sure that when they've been doing really well together, THEN you separate them. This way the experiences they have with each other are only positive, rather than leaving it to escalate and become a negative experience. Little tellings off are fine, as long as you are there to supervise and take the pup away if she's getting too much. You should back-up your older dog, unless it's obviously inappropriate.


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## vivadanilson (Jan 14, 2015)

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. Bowled over with the help you guys are giving so thank you!!

Yeah she enjoys the curiosity of other dogs and just wants to play with them when we are out on our walks. I definately wouldn't say that she dislikes dogs. She is very playful and seems/acts younger than 2.
She has had a ball today. The pair of them have been following each other round, playing with each other. It's been great to see.
Then out of nowhere again she lashed out and clamped onto the puppy. Twice. On one occasion my fiancé went to put the puppy on the bed where the 2 year old was and it happened. The second time, they were both at her feet and she accidentally knocked some food onto the floor.
To be fair we have been giving them both some rest time today and it has been great progress compared to yesterday. We just want her to stop the biting. The lashing out to get her away from her food bowl etc is fine (and that is happening). It's just like she doesn't know how far to go with it and actually biting the pup seems a bit far. She is however, still not drawing any blood but the pup does whimper for a couple of mins afterwards.

Thanks again.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Whether a dog tolerates "other" dogs does not necessarily have any bearing on how it may react to a dog (or any other animal) in its household.
> 
> There are plenty of dogs which will kill cats outside the house and curl up with housemates.
> 
> ...


True, and there is not necessarily _not_ any correlation either 

Having said, as one whom spent years doing dog on dog assessments when I worked at rescue centres, by means of assessment with other dogs at the rescue, my own dogs, or potential adopter applicants dogs, on balance I would say the dogs that displayed hostile,confrontational or aggressive intentions during the controlled assessments, odds on they weren't very viable for homing with another dog - generally speaking to do otherwise would have been an unsafe decision on our parts. Obviously there is aggression and there is aggression. Ditto with dog to cat assessments.
So its very much highly recommended that the sensible thing to do is perform advance assessments and introductions.
Even regards the cat thing that is often contingent with a cat already living first in that home or the dog was raised with that cat My colleague had two cat killing dogs that actually lived with his own cat for some years. When he moved home the next day when his cat jumped thru the 'new window', and they killed it.
So the key to this equation is if the existing dog already had any aggression related issues to other dogs in general, which we didnt know as yet (we do now), hence the question, which would be my first thing to ascertain before i would say its all ok, its just teething problems


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

I have a yorkie who absolutely hated any puppy we have brought into the house since we got her! We currently have 2 dogs younger than her and in both cases, she wouldn't even let them near her to begin with. She growled and showed her teeth and they stayed away from her - playing with our other dogs who did like them. All of a sudden (at least it seemed like that to us!!) they got bigger than her.
She instantly fell in love with them and they are now her best friends. 

I think she just didn't like having a puppy smaller than her. She now shares her bed, food and anything else with both of them. The slower affection sharing hasn't done any of them any harm. They are all great friends now.

Just keep a close eye on them and keep apart when you can't supervise them.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

OH, puppies!!!

Look, they just have to Learn, nothing against the things, but THEY MUST BE TAUGHT. I am Tess, I am a Very Important Dog and for some reason my people brought in a puppy. She is Pixie and she is a cattle-dog.

I taught her and my friend Daisy taught her and she is quite a Good Girl, now. This is Daisy teaching Pixie.

Daisy (older bitch) is being polite (head down and ears folded with a happy mouth) while holding her tail up (saying "be respectful"). Pixie is being Rude. She has her head up and her tail up while approaching a Senior Bitch.







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Daisy is a nice person so she just said "growl" and went a bit stiff. (I would have nipped her ear). Pixie did the Right Thing and apologised. Daisy kept her Down by staring.







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Daisy gave her a Sniff to reinforce the lesson and check her sincerity.







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Pixie tucked her tail between her legs and said Small. (I would have insisted on a submissive wee, but I'm Tough).

Apology accepted Daisy allowed Pixie to get up by walking away.







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Pixie - as an Older Puppy - knows to keep herself lower than Bear, her father.







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So you see, pups can be trained (even Pixie) but it's Hard Work. Well, you know the old saying; "a bitch's work is never done".

Don't worry, your pup is just learning Manners. She'd probably been on the sofa too long and needed to know she doesn't own it. you've no idea how pushy they get without someone to Tell Them...








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You don't want THIS!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Let's not get confused. I don't think anyone asked if the older dog tolerates other dogs, but does he like them. Two entirely different things altogether obviously. Does the older dog want to run up to play with other dogs when he's out, or does he just put up with them. Of course one wouldn't know that if one is the sort of owner who never let's them play for whatever odd reason.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

On my website is a video of Ferdie playing with Joshua the very first week we got the puppy.

Newfoundland Puppy Pictures and videos

Ferdie still loves puppies. Diva isn't so keen.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> On my website is a video of Ferdie playing with Joshua the very first week we got the puppy.
> 
> Newfoundland Puppy Pictures and videos
> 
> Ferdie still loves puppies. Diva isn't so keen.


That is an adorable video ...I love to see them playing and if you see this in the first few weeks you know everything is fine.
Here's my 2 on their first few days together, it was more than I had expected given the circumstances


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Clare7435 said:


> That is an adorable video ...I love to see them playing and if you see this in the first few weeks you know everything is fine.
> Here's my 2 on their first few days together, it was more than I had expected given the circumstances


Lovely. With mine, given the vast difference in size, I was very impressed with how gentle Ferdie was with him, and I loved the bit where Joshua peeped out from underneath Ferdie. I lost Joshua when he was only three so I am doubly pleased to have got those films.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Lovely. With mine, given the vast difference in size, I was very impressed with how gentle Ferdie was with him, and I loved the bit where Joshua peeped out from underneath Ferdie. I lost Joshua when he was only three so I am doubly pleased to have got those films.


It was a lot easier for me to relax and just let them play knowing if things did get difficult I could separate them with them being so small. It must have been nerve wracking for you at first because even play can result in accidents given the sheer size of them, How gentle was he though...that was beautiful to watch, it's funny I was only speaking to my friend about her bernese the other day , his best friend is their rabbit and I cant believe how gentle he is and we both commented on how you hardly ever see an aggressive newfie or bernese or any other dog like that, they are so gentle however huge they are 
I am truly sorry you lost Joshua at such a young age that must have been dreadful for you, it's lovely that you have these films


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Clare7435 said:


> It was a lot easier for me to relax and just let them play knowing if things did get difficult I could separate them with them being so small. It must have been nerve wracking for you at first because even play can result in accidents given the sheer size of them, How gentle was he though...that was beautiful to watch, it's funny I was only speaking to my friend about her bernese the other day , his best friend is their rabbit and I cant believe how gentle he is and we both commented on how you hardly ever see an aggressive newfie or bernese or any other dog like that, they are so gentle however huge they are
> I am truly sorry you lost Joshua at such a young age that must have been dreadful for you, it's lovely that you have these films


Any dog is what you raise it to be. That is why I hate these CM pack leader tactics; they can turn the gentlest dog into an aggressive one. Ferdie adored Joshua right from the start and when he died, Ferdie was so distressed I thought I was going to lose him as well. Luckily, their breeder was looking for a pet home for Diva and now they are the best of friends.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> The key word is "hours"
> 
> Dogs, like people, often need respite from others.
> 
> ...


Stop poking Grandma! Brilliant!


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## vivadanilson (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice. We have been attempting all the things that you guys have suggested!
They appear to have worked! The pair of them are completely and utterly besotted with eachother! 1000 miles away from where they were on weds/thurs.
They are playing, play fighting, following each other, licking eachother. It's amazing! 
Thank you all so much for your advice and words of wisdom. You have been a GREAT help!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

vivadanilson said:


> Thanks for all the advice. We have been attempting all the things that you guys have suggested!
> They appear to have worked! The pair of them are completely and utterly besotted with eachother! 1000 miles away from where they were on weds/thurs.
> They are playing, play fighting, following each other, licking eachother. It's amazing!
> Thank you all so much for your advice and words of wisdom. You have been a GREAT help!!


That is what we like to hear and thanks for coming back to tell us. We worry otherwise:yesnod:Now keep in touch; there is a lot of good advice on this forum and we are mostly a friendly lot and passionate about animals. Well done:001_wub:


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