# Is it normal for a retired bitch to have a large saggy tummy and big teats?



## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Hi I recently visited a "breeder" with my friend for moral support about a possible puppy. We seen the mother and all her pups, but there was also another 2 bitches there who are now retired and haven't had pups for around 18 months to 2 years. I noticed that they had large saggy tummies and big teats and were very grey round their heads. Is this normal?
Also this is the mother of the present pups is only 3 years old and this is her second litter but looks quite old.
The "breeder" told us that her dogs usually have large litter numbers. Present litter is 11, the dams last litter was 13. One of the retired bitches litters was 15!! And these pups don't come cheap (£1500 each) for a type of mastiff.
She did show us health tests and appraisal scores for both parents.

I advised my friend that she should probably go for a KC reg type of mastiff instead of one which isn't recognised by the KC, but I doubt it will make much difference to her as she is pretty set on getting this particular type of dog.

Maybe I'm over looking this but from my personal experience with knowing a few breeders, I have never seen their bitches like this but maybe that is down to them only having 3 litters at the very most from their dogs.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

not normally for one or 2 litters,
puppy farm bitches normally do as they are bred every season,for many years normally.
sounds a bit like a puppy farm to me


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> not normally for one or 2 litters,
> puppy farm bitches normally do as they are bred every season,for many years normally.
> sounds a bit like a puppy farm to me


I agree completely If a bitch hasnt been breed for a good while and has only had one or two litters, I wouldnt expect her to look like you described. Its usually seen in overbred bitches.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I agree completely If a bitch hasnt been breed for a good while and has only had one or two litters, I wouldnt expect her to look like you described. Its usually seen in overbred bitches.


Sorry - completely disagree with this - it varies from bitch to bitch - I can show you girls that have never got back their figures and I know for a fact have just TWO litters - then I can show you bitches that by the time the pups are 8 weeks look like they've never been a mother - I should know - I've owned one of each - and both treated in exactly the same way - but the better mother who still fed her young at 11/12 weeks looks like a PF bitch - the passable mother had her figure back by the time the babies were 8 weeks and back in the ring by the time they were 12 weeks.

Believe me, when I say I've seen bitches with milk bars that would make you wonder what on earth they've been doing on a SINGLE litter, so lets be VERY careful not to judge on milk bars alone. 

In fact, it's quite upset me based on the comments above that someone could come to my house and accuse me of over-breeding my dogs, when I've bred just THREE litters in FIVE years from two different bitches 

Having said all that - what are "appraisal scores" and what actual health-tests have they had done?

What dogs are they that they are not registered with the KC? £1,500 is a HELL of a lot of money to get it wrong


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Although I agree it depends on the bitch and some can appear like they've been rehomed from a puppy farm most should regain their figures fairly reasonably and the fact that all her bitches are like this would ring alarm bells for me, along with the price tag!

What health test results did you see and what are appraisal scores?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Although I agree it depends on the bitch and some can appear like they've been rehomed from a puppy farm most should regain their figures fairly reasonably and the fact that all her bitches are like this would ring alarm bells for me, along with the price tag!
> 
> What health test results did you see and what are appraisal scores?


I wondered what appraisal scores were as well.

I've been told in the past that bitches who stop feeding earlier tend to regain their figures better and more quickly and that certainly follows through for my girls.

My eldest was "little mother earth" and still feeding the remaining pups at gone 12 weeks - I had a "keeper" and a girl that was going to France - she would have cleaned up after them as well if we'd let her 

Her daughter OTOH was off the babies by four weeks and they had teeth


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Well the health tests were Penn Hip and the usual tests for breeding bitches like vaginal prolapse. Appraisal score is like a show but each dog much have a 75% mark to pass. Consists of temperment testing (which also includes putting your dog in a crate and doing a scratching motion with a stick to see how the dog reacts, aggressive reaction = fail) Totally do not agree with that. If somebody put you in a confined box and poked you with a stick your clearly going to snap a bit. The health tests are also taken into consideration and the conformation of the dog must meet the breed standard also.

They are South African Mastiffs or Boerboels as they are also called. It is a pretty steep price for a dog that looks like what I imagined an english - bull mastiff cross would be like. I know some dogs cost a lot, our French bulldog cost slightly more than one of these.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

An appraisal score is a test made up of a range of things like looks, temperment, health, movement and fitness. A dog must score a minimum 75% to be considered for "breeding stock". One of the temperment tests is a bit extreme....Put the dog in a crate and scratch it's back with a stick and see it's reaction. The owner must not be in sight. If the dog shows any signs of aggression if is disqualified. To be honest if someone put me in a crate and poked me with a stick I wouldn't be happy. A big part of a selling speech for them is that they are supposed to be "in tune with how you are feeling", say for instance you were feeling threatened by someone who you are having a confrontation with, your dog would react to how you feel and defend you. They are ment to be extremely protective over family and extremely territorial as well. When we went for our visit we had to contact them an hour before we arrived so they could prepare the dogs for strangers coming. *This made alarm bells ring for me also.* If you need to do this then either you are bad news (possible PF) or the dogs are far too aggressive and should not be breed from.

We seen Hip tests (PennHip) and also a certificate to say the dog was clear of vaginal prolapse and entropion (think this is an eye test).


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> An appraisal score is a test made up of a range of things like looks, temperment, health, movement and fitness. A dog must score a minimum 75% to be considered for "breeding stock". One of the temperment tests is a bit extreme....Put the dog in a crate and scratch it's back with a stick and see it's reaction. The owner must not be in sight. If the dog shows any signs of aggression if is disqualified. To be honest if someone put me in a crate and poked me with a stick I wouldn't be happy. A big part of a selling speech for them is that they are supposed to be "in tune with how you are feeling", say for instance you were feeling threatened by someone who you are having a confrontation with, your dog would react to how you feel and defend you. They are ment to be extremely protective over family and extremely territorial as well. When we went for our visit we had to contact them an hour before we arrived so they could prepare the dogs for strangers coming. *This made alarm bells ring for me also.* If you need to do this then either you are bad news (possible PF) or the dogs are far too aggressive and should not be breed from.
> 
> We seen Hip tests (PennHip) and also a certificate to say the dog was clear of vaginal prolapse and entropion (think this is an eye test).


It isn't a Bully Kutta is it? I have heard of that being done with them. I have met a fair few of them in less than ideal circumstances.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

No it's a Boerboel. I think they are quite similar though.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Are you in the UK? it's quite unusual for UK breeders to use PennHip - unless something has changed recently, there are only two vets in the UK who are able to test under the scheme.

The BVA scheme is more commonly used in the UK (unless the dogs were scored before importing - although some overseas breeders do use the BVA scheme).

The scheme is open to pedigrees and cross-breeds, registered and un-registered dogs alike and is what people are more familiar with here - and it takes some people time to get their head around the standard tests in the UK. 

In isolation, any of the points you raise I wouldn't consider significant - but when you wrap everything together 

Presumably there are reasons this breed needs the appraisal test for breeding?

If I was you, I would be advising your friend to look at KC registered breeds where all the health tests have been done, and they have a better idea of what they are getting themselves into.

If they are not going to listen, then they clearly have money to burn


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## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

The biggest red flag for me would be the fact that a large, slow maturing breed is on her second litter at only 3.

If she were bred back to back, i would certainly walk away. If she were bred under 2 years of age, again, i would walk away.

I would also be intigued as to why the hefty price tag. The "rare" breed bit never cuts it with me, as i see that as no justification to hike up the price.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Totally agree with Linden_Tree. I have advised my friend to go for a bull mastiff as they seem similar. There are a few breeders in the UK of this breed and loads out with the UK also. I have heard of others using BVA for the hip score.

Yes you guessed it "rare breed" factor. Our frenchie cost us more than that, but then it is justifiable with that breed, due to c-sections and slightly higher risks which are involved with bulldogs.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I agree it depends on the bitch with regards to her milk bar - my ridgie stopped feeding her pups at 3 weeks old and by the time they were 8 weeks you wouldn't know she had 9 pups!, the ones that feed them far more can get a very saggy undercarriage, but it is more common to see in overbred dogs - usually the circumstances and premeisis will give you a good idea which.

I looked at Boerbals before I got my ovcharka, I'd met a few in south africa and loved them and as I have ridgies I thought they would be a pretty good dog to have considering they are basically a ridgie mastiff mix, although one of the ones I met had horrendous hip problems and was only a year old. 
I looked at the UK ones and was actually pretty shocked at just how inbred they all are - one breeder seemed to be very proud of the fact they were inbreeding so much!! After looking at all the health problems I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole, unless imported from SA, as the gene pool out there is much larger and the dogs are actual working dogs compared to the show bred/poser type ones that have been exported and bred to be much heavier and more muscly, so make your friend very aware they are highly likely to have costly issues in the future!! 
I agree with others go for a mastiff that has health tests being such a big dog they are expensive when they go wrong so it is better to have a good chance of a healthy pup to start with.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I have told her that after looking at different breeders, in and out of the UK, she should choose a different dog. Think I might have got through  well hopefully! She did have a look at the list of breeders for English Mastiffs, who are part of the Kennel Club accredited breeders scheme. 

I think I may know of what one you are talking about being proud of inbreeding. Also seen one who is in Denmark who is also very proud of her inbred dogs/pups. 

I'm going to send her a link to this so she can see other opinions.

Thanks everyone for all the replies  very much appreciated.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I have told her that after looking at different breeders, in and out of the UK, she should choose a different dog. Think I might have got through  well hopefully! She did have a look at the list of breeders for English Mastiffs, who are part of the Kennel Club accredited breeders scheme.
> 
> I think I may know of what one you are talking about being proud of inbreeding. Also seen one who is in Denmark who is also very proud of her inbred dogs/pups.
> 
> ...


One site that she may be interested in that contains all breeds health a well as lots of other useful info on buying and sourcing a pup is below.

Dog Breed Health


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