# Fear Agression or just plain Agressive ?



## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

How do you classify /tell the difference between the two?

This is a question about a ouple I know who have 2 Patterdale terriers 1 male 1 female and the male is a horror 

He was fine as a pup but now he will bark, growl and lunge at people he meets if they stop and talk to the owner .He also iis agressive over food and they wont go near him if he is eating.

The owners are really soft with the dogs and as a result they dont walk properly on their leads and they pull all the time .They live in a flat and the dogs are only walked in town on the lead and have never been let off to run free as they dont listen and have no recal what so ever.

They had a behavior expert downto try and help them and she suggested putting a muzzle on the dog when walking it but as they cant get the muzzle on the dog they cant do that if they do manage to get it on the dog fights to get it off.

The behaviorist did not suggest anything at all about diet or more exercise whih IMHO is what the dog needs more of as I think its agression stems from lack of this and also lack of proper training.

However I am no expert so just wondered what you thought and if you had any advice that would be helpfull as the dog is really nasty and I have experienced this as it bit me badly when I tried to help them put on a muzzle ,you may have read my previous post on this


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

this is a very worrying post and not one i would like to offer advice on without meeting the owner and the dogs.
however, 
in general, anyone who has a dog who displays sudden changes in behaviour like this would be well advised to get the dog checked out at the vet for any physical or neurological problems, to check the protein content of the dog's diet and make sure it is less than 20%, followed up by bringing in a behaviourist who knows what they are talking about.

sadly, there are many "behaviourists" out there who offer advice for huge amounts of money without any formal training or sufficient experience. ask the vet to recommend one.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

lucysnewmum said:


> this is a very worrying post and not one i would like to offer advice on without meeting the owner and the dogs.
> however,
> in general, anyone who has a dog who displays sudden changes in behaviour like this would be well advised to get the dog checked out at the vet for any physical or neurological problems, to check the protein content of the dog's diet and make sure it is less than 20%, followed up by bringing in a behaviourist who knows what they are talking about.
> 
> sadly, there are many "behaviourists" out there who offer advice for huge amounts of money without any formal training or sufficient experience. ask the vet to recommend one.


Thanke for the advice I too think that they should get the dog cheked out and hey are probably feeding too much and giving too many treats making the dog hyper and agressive.
Lack of exercise and mental stimulation is the other thing ,I mean a quick walk 2/3 times a day IMO is not enough for a terrier. 
I have 3 terriers myself and even though they may not get as much exercise as they should, they are allways in and out of the garden finding holes to dig or sniffing out mice and chasing birdies LOL not stuck up in a flat getting frustrated.

will suggest getting the dog checked out at vet ( what would they check for though ?? as never had any experience of behavior problems ) and ask what she is feeding the dog . Still on the feeding side the other dog seems fine behavior wise but still is dissobedient as they dont have a clue about training, their dogs dont like doing this and that !!!! you get the type of owners I mean their dog talks to them and tells them what they like 

I worry about them and the dog as he is going to hurt somone bad , he has already got me and I tell you never again will I put my hands near him. I nearly passed out with the pain and had to lie down on the floor to stop from passing out :scared: have been left with a numb lump on my finger as a reminder !!


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

very worrying scenario indeed....
from what you have posted this dog could easily be breaching the dangerous dogs act.
i would suggest a quiet word in their ears (if they will listen). the vet can test for hormone imbalances, deficiencies of all kinds of things can affect a dogs behaviour, and for unknown medical problems or pain that may not be evident to the untrained!
i worry that lack of training and understimulation are playing a huge part here and would advise you to steer well clear of the dog if they are not willing to take action to remedy the situation.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

lucysnewmum said:


> very worrying scenario indeed....
> from what you have posted this dog could easily be breaching the dangerous dogs act.
> i would suggest a quiet word in their ears (if they will listen). the vet can test for hormone imbalances, deficiencies of all kinds of things can affect a dogs behaviour, and for unknown medical problems or pain that may not be evident to the untrained!
> i worry that lack of training and understimulation are playing a huge part here and would advise you to steer well clear of the dog if they are not willing to take action to remedy the situation.


 Have suggested she visit vet and she said that she thinks he might be like that as her bitch is the dominant one  I said that should not make him turn agressive . Will see if she takes my advice but as for helping out with his rehabilitation and training no way , as they say once bitten twice shy :lol:
Just hope she does not try and breed her bitch with him as that is the reason they got him in the first place


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

From the information you have given it sounds like he is aggresive all the time? No matter wether its his owners or other people. You didnt mention if he was aggressive to other dogs too? Its always hard on here because you cannot see the dog and usually you dont get the full information. In my experience of fear aggressive dogs it mostly appears as a response to certain situations. Eg a dog might be say frightened of traffic. He cant take flight as hes own a lead so hes reaction is then fight agression. Barking growling snapping. In the main fear aggressive dogs are fine the rest of the time. You also you said he was fine as a pup. If her was a nervous fearful dog temprement wise i would have thought it would have become apparent then as pups go through several fear periods as part of their natural developement. The only thing that would cause fear aggresion would be if something bad happened to him and he became phobic. But again the aggresion doesnt seem confined to any one area of situation. The only conclusion i can come to is its actual aggresion. If he waswhat i call a feisty personality anyway and hasnt been given any boundaries or training that could be the problem. At the end of the day he is a terrier who would need firm fair handling. As i said all i can do is come up with possible suggestions. Any form of aggression is serious and i think they should get profesional help as they are clearly out of their depth. Their vets would have a list of qualified behaviourists.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> From the information you have given it sounds like he is aggresive all the time? No matter wether its his owners or other people. You didnt mention if he was aggressive to other dogs too? Its always hard on here because you cannot see the dog and usually you dont get the full information. In my experience of fear aggressive dogs it mostly appears as a response to certain situations. Eg a dog might be say frightened of traffic. He cant take flight as hes own a lead so hes reaction is then fight agression. Barking growling snapping. In the main fear aggressive dogs are fine the rest of the time. You also you said he was fine as a pup. If her was a nervous fearful dog temprement wise i would have thought it would have become apparent then as pups go through several fear periods as part of their natural developement. The only thing that would cause fear aggresion would be if something bad happened to him and he became phobic. But again the aggresion doesnt seem confined to any one area of situation. The only conclusion i can come to is its actual aggresion. If he waswhat i call a feisty personality anyway and hasnt been given any boundaries or training that could be the problem. At the end of the day he is a terrier who would need firm fair handling. As i said all i can do is come up with possible suggestions. Any form of aggression is serious and i think they should get profesional help as they are clearly out of their depth. Their vets would have a list of qualified behaviourists.


Yes he is agressive to other dogs and people ,they have to tell folk not to go near him all the time 

I also agree with you that it is plain old aggresion as he was not handled properly and is what you would call babied and spoiled just like their other dog but she has a sweet personality even if she does not do as she is told .

Oh they say he is fine with them in the house and will cuddle up to them !!! I dont believe one word of that though !!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I think male dogs are harder to handle and are more chalenging anyway. I take one of mine to training still whos 21mths not because shes a problem i hasten to add. It seems that all the dogs there who are out of control or got behaviour probs of one sort or another seem to be mostly male dogs for some reason. How old was he when he started to kick off? Im betting it was between 6 to 9mths? Thats the usual age. A lot of trainers dont believe in pack behaviour but ive always had sled dogs who are pack dogs you only have to watch how they react to each other. Im betting he was one of the pushier pups in the litter always shoving himself up front and full of confidence.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> They had a [trainer] down to try... help them and she suggested putting a muzzle on the dog
> [for walks] but as they cant get the muzzle on the dog, they cannot do that  if they do manage to get it on the dog fights to get it off.


U cannot just stick it on the dog's face, LB - 
it has to be *introduced* and *habituated* so that the dog is not 'just' tolerating the muzzle - 
they SEE it and come running to shove their own face into the muzzle, freely.

i posted this before - 


leashedForLife said:


> introducing a *basket muzzle -* safely + happily:
> YouTube - Muzzle Training
> 
> _BTW *tube-muzzles* or *groomers-muzzles* are both useless and dangerous -
> ...


the video is very helpful - or use the SEARCH box on PF-uk and enter "habituate" and "muzzle".

the book Click to Calm would also help; it can be borrowed from the library, if need be 
thru inter-library loan from another library. 
CALMATIVES are also helpful IME - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

i wish them happy training, 
- terry


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

I agree with above, whatever the root cause for his aggression, manhandling him to put a muzzle on him will only exacerbate the problem, the bite would have been a last resort, the sad thing here is that now he has bitten and achieved a result with it he is likely to do that again, much more so if for instance the attempt to muzzle him stopped as he became more distressed.

I find some times smaller dogs tend to bite quicker then larger dog because larger dogs' warnings are taken more seriously when say a smaller terrier like a patterdale would be attempted to be restrained, I doubt you would have offered to help if he was say a rottie or a GSD (meaning a bigger, stronger and harder to restrain dog).

I give you an example, my dog has always been very scared at the vets, but done cautiously he would comply with an examination. One day a "in a hurry" vet walked in and attempted to examine his sore leg (he has ED), Ray reacted to this never seen before stranger with a growl, he was ignored so he snarled. This vet walked out came back with a muzzle and slip collar and forced the muzzle on him and corned him and resume the examination... needless to say ever since that Ray has to be muzzled at the vets, it got so bad that I had to put the muzzle even in reception as nobody that worked at the vets could come near us (funnily enough all the customers in the waiting room where fine)  Took me months of work and the cooperation of a patient different vet to get him to relax a little, I doubt a vet will ever be able to examine his legs without sedation though.

It takes one wrong action to seriously alter a dog's personality and months of work to go back to where he was before.

Before meeting this vet Ray was a nervous dog anyway, but would have always chosen to give berth to a worry, now he is more likely to freeze and face it. It was not in him to react aggressively to a human at all, unfortunately he has been taught that now. The work is never over when you have a nervous dog, but it helps to be there to prevent them to feel worried and be very aware of their body language. Sounds like the owners of this dog are completely oblivious.

Whatever made them choose a patterdale when all they could offer was a quick walk in town here and there is beyond me... If they see to his needs more maybe the dog would find more of a purpose in life and some rehabilitation take ground, from the sound of his people I doubt very much this dog has much hope, how sad! 

You might hate me for this, but you are probably aware that, although you had the best of intentions, you have actually caused more harm then good. This dog needs to be handled with a lot of cautiousness by an experienced behaviourist able to go to his pace and establish a trust with the dog first. The type of "professional" they decide to use will determine the results the dog will achieve, but it is really down to them to understand him first.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

dodigna said:


> I agree with above, whatever the root cause for his aggression, manhandling him to put a muzzle on him will only exacerbate the problem, the bite would have been a last resort, the sad thing here is that now he has bitten and achieved a result with it he is likely to do that again, much more so if for instance the attempt to muzzle him stopped as he became more distressed.
> 
> I find some times smaller dogs tend to bite quicker then larger dog because larger dogs' warnings are taken more seriously when say a smaller terrier like a patterdale would be attempted to be restrained, I doubt you would have offered to help if he was say a rottie or a GSD (meaning a bigger, stronger and harder to restrain dog).
> I give you an example, my dog has always been very scared at the vets, but done cautiously he would comply with an examination. One day a "in a hurry" vet walked in and attempted to examine his sore leg (he has ED), Ray reacted to this never seen before stranger with a growl, he was ignored so he snarled. This vet walked out came back with a muzzle and slip collar and forced the muzzle on him and corned him and resume the examination... needless to say ever since that Ray has to be muzzled at the vets, it got so bad that I had to put the muzzle even in reception as nobody that worked at the vets could come near us (funnily enough all the customers in the waiting room where fine)  Took me months of work and the cooperation of a patient different vet to get him to relax a little, I doubt a vet will ever be able to examine his legs without sedation though.
> ...


I was not the first person that he has bitten ! and it was the experienced professional who wanted the Muzzle to be put on and was trying to " Man handle him " standing on a busy street  I told them to come in to my shop for a bit of privacy and to make the dog less stressed. I was only trying to help the proffessional (which I now know I should not have done ) and was not my decision to use the muzzle so not actually me who has caused more harm :frown:! It was the professional who eventually got the muzzle on wit h a struggle I may add as she was frightned and kept jumping away from him as he tried to bite her.

The dog is not at all nervous in fact the complete opposite and is very fiesty allways has been.

Also i dont think the size of a dog would put me off helping , infact give me a Rottie any time rather than a small dog as they are quicker off the mark all together.

The ones that are at fault here are the owners who have ,right from the start not handled the dog properly . They have not taken in to consideration that a terrier needs a lot of stimulating exercise and should not be shut up in a flat most of the day and only taken for a couple of short walks.
They also never ever repremanded him as a pup when he would jump up at every person he ever met. He is also food agressive and they have never tried to sort that out either so basically they have let him get away with murder and now it has got out of hand.

The solution they were given by the " Proffessional " was to muzzle him every time they take him out . No Advice was given such as more exercise, being firm with him or to check what food he was being fed incase it was making him over excited.

I do not hate you for what you have said but you seem to be under the impression that I have caused more harm than good which is not the case.Yes maybe I should have stayed clear and I never but the damage had been done long before I attempted to help:confused1:

To be honest the owners would be more suited to a Cavalier , a quiet breed that likes to sleep a lot :lol: but what can I say probably if they had children they would be the screaming , biting , lying on the floor type of kids  They are also the type of people who do not listen to advice and think that they know better. 
Their other dog , a bitch still jumps up on people to greet them and she is now 3 years old . They just say oh she loves everyone so she does !!!! they also stopped taking her to dog training as they thought she had learned enough  she still does not recall at all and has never been off the lead when out on a walk , even on our very large , quiet beaches .

We will just have to wait and see what happens , hopefully without to many people being bitten !!!


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2010)

I dont want to be one trying to advise on this either!

But, and I dont know if anyone will agree with me on this or not! Because I have a dog that suffers fear agression, and in my case I feel pretty confident in spotting the difference! A gog that shows agreesion would normally have its tail raised, and would be puffing itself up so to speak! it would be confident and forthcoming, whereby a dog that suffers fear agression seems to not be so in your face so to speak and its carriage seems to be not cowering but lowerand the eye contact is different - less defiant! not saying this is correct - but how it comes across to me! Sorry! not to good at explaining .
DT


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I dont want to be one trying to advise on this either!
> 
> But, and I dont know if anyone will agree with me on this or not! Because I have a dog that suffers fear agression, and in my case I feel pretty confident in spotting the difference! A gog that shows agreesion would normally have its tail raised, and would be puffing itself up so to speak! it would be confident and forthcoming, whereby a dog that suffers fear agression seems to not be so in your face so to speak and its carriage seems to be not cowering but lowerand the eye contact is different - less defiant! not saying this is correct - but how it comes across to me! Sorry! not to good at explaining .
> DT


Well this dog deffo dosent have fear agression :lol:I dont think I have ever seen his tail between his legs . He is very in your face and you cant even talk to his owner without him lunging at you , its quite a sight to see


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

God, that sounds like a horrible situation. So the poor dog has no guidance in how to act, not enough exercise, poor diet and Im betting they skipped the all important socialiaztion stage too?
I think if they can just get him to accept the muzzle when going out they may at least save him from being PTS as a dangerous dog. Its clearly a good example of what happens to a typical terrier if allowed to get away with everything its whole life.
No offense to Patterdale owners but I think Id rather have nearly any breed then to cope with one of those!!


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> God, that sounds like a horrible situation. So the poor dog has no guidance in how to act, not enough exercise, poor diet and Im betting they skipped the all important socialiaztion stage too?
> I think if they can just get him to accept the muzzle when going out they may at least save him from being PTS as a dangerous dog. Its clearly a good example of what happens to a typical terrier if allowed to get away with everything its whole life.
> No offense to Patterdale owners but I think Id rather have nearly any breed then to cope with one of those!!


Yes no socialization at all and They are too frightened to do it now !!!


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

i only know of one rescue centre that specialises in patterdales...
perhaps a phone call would help this little man get his head round life... or help the owners deal with the situation.

Lynne Da Costa, Richmond, Surrey. 020 8549 6494

the other alternative would be to get hold of his breeder to find out if any others from his litter are this way inclined etc and see what advice they can offer. ( i dont hold out much hope on this one if they were happy to let the dog go to these people in the first place!)


hope this helps


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

lucysnewmum said:


> i only know of one rescue centre that specialises in patterdales...
> perhaps a phone call would help this little man get his head round life... or help the owners deal with the situation.
> 
> Lynne Da Costa, Richmond, Surrey. 020 8549 6494
> ...


Thanks will let them know about this rescue centre and hope they give them a call. 
Will let you know if they do. They need to get it sorted out and soon !!


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Just an update on The agressive Patterdle Terrier

Owners had the dog nutered to see if this would help but 3 weeks later , while the owners were out on a walk the dog bit the owner badly on the leg as he tried to get to another dog .
She was bitten on the leg up at her thigh because she held him back so he attacked her.
He was also food agressive and had had a go at both her and her husband . The owner had had enough and decided that the dog was liability so decided to get him PTS
Sad but I think they made the right decision as it could have done harm to others and that would have been awfull


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

I understand that this dog was obviously a high risk case: and i know nothing about Patter dales, and if there was no underlining medical issues: then this poor baby lost its life through irresponsible,  inadequate,  ill equipped,  ignorant,  selfish, bloody owners. sorry but a baby lost its life today!! RIP little one... Angie2011


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Angie2011 said:


> I understand that this dog was obviously a high risk case: and i know nothing about Patter dales, and if there was no underlining medical issues: then this poor baby lost its life through irresponsible,  inadequate,  ill equipped,  ignorant,  selfish, bloody owners. sorry but a baby lost its life today!! RIP little one... Angie2011


Yes I agree with most of what you have said as the owners were not able to cope with this dog and it is sad that he lost his life , But this dog had bitten them ( as I have just found out )on several occasions and had not addmited to it. Once when they were playing on the wii ???? it jumped up and bit the owners wrist and again when the owner was feeding the dog .

They did try and as mentioned in an earlier post, tried to sort the dog out but sometimes there are dogs who cannot be helped and are unfortunately to much of a liability.
If this dog had bitten a child it would have had to have been PTS as that is just not acceptable . As for being selfish , I dont think they were because they did make the right choice and stopped any risk of this happening.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> If this dog had bitten a child it would have had to have been PTS as that is just not acceptable.


plenty of dogs have bitten a child in their lives; it is not necessarily a death sentence, in part because kids 
an often deliberately [if unintentionally] trigger bites from perfectly normal dogs. 
parents & some dog-owners & many NON-dog-owners refuse to believe there are such things as justified bites; 
the 9-YO boy who snapped-off a pencil inside a Rough Collie's ear so deeply it was not FOUND until the vet 
had already euthed the dog [on the father's insistence], and autopsied the dog, *IMO richly deserved the 
highly-inhibited bite he got, and worse - as did his father, who beat the dog before taking him to the vet, 
assuming he was an evil monster; i wish the dog had bitten dear-old Dad, too.* 
the vet did the necropsy on his own hook because he was astonished that this 12-YO dog who'd never 
in his life shown aggro to a child, had acted so uncharacteristically. 


lilacbabe said:


> As for being selfish, I dont think they were because they did make the right choice and stopped any risk of this happening.


sorry - i disagree; IMO their efforts were pathetically inadequate & half-hearted. 
if they had MUZzLED the dog before the walk, she would not have been bitten - would she? 
*management comes before training *or* B-Mod, and is lifelong - the DOG is not to be held liable 
for the owner's seeming inability to predict possible problems, & to prevent them with such simple 
devices as leashes, long-lines, box-muzzles, and etcetera. * :thumbdown: the owners' efforts were far too little, 
and way too late. _FAIL._


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> the 9-YO boy who snapped-off a pencil inside a Rough Collie's ear so deeply it was not FOUND until the vet
> had already euthed the dog [on the father's insistence], and autopsied the dog, *IMO richly deserved the
> highly-inhibited bite he got, and worse - as did his father, who beat the dog before taking him to the vet,
> assuming he was an evil monster; i wish the dog had bitten dear-old Dad, too.*


Dad and brat were the evil monsters; sounds like they were the ones who should have been pts.

When I hear about a dog biting a child, my first thought is always: what did the brat do to the dog?


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Yes I agree with most of what you have said as the owners were not able to cope with this dog and it is sad that he lost his life , But this dog had bitten them ( as I have just found out )on several occasions and had not addmited to it. Once when they were playing on the wii ???? it jumped up and bit the owners wrist and again when the owner was feeding the dog .
> 
> They did try and as mentioned in an earlier post, tried to sort the dog out but *sometimes there are dogs who cannot be helped and are unfortunately to much of a liability.*
> If this dog had bitten a child it would have had to have been PTS as that is just not acceptable . As for being selfish , I dont think they were because they did make the right choice and stopped any risk of this happening.


And some times there are people who are too much of a liability to take on a responsibility such as owning a dog.

In the 4 months after they tried to shove a muzzle on him they still haven't managed to teach the dog to accept one. If the dog is reactive they could have taken steps before the dog bit them. If he is likely to show stress while they are about to feed the dog you put a child gate to keep him away or feed it in a crate. Many people do, but if you are set on expecting the dog to get over his issues by himself then it is bound to go pear shape at some point.
Any sign of distress should be dealt with from day one, not after the dog has bitten already.

The action of playing with the wee can be very threatening to a dog, 'cmon how the hell does he know it is a game, all he sees is loud noises, raised hands and sudden movements...

Some people simply forgets dogs are animals and expect them to come completely tuned to us and our life style, most dogs adapt very quickly, some dogs lag behind and need a bit more help.

The stage this dog was on might have been a liability and a danger, but the responsibility of the dog getting to where he was rests totally with his humans. Post one does say "he was fine as a pup" chances are he turned into the little monster he did because his people never saw his stress levels developing into aggression.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Poor dog. Most aggression is down to fear though. If the dog was barking, growling and lunging at people then obviously it felt threatened by strangers and was *fearful*. What is "plain old aggression" anyway- I've never came across it!

Every dog is allowed to bite.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Poor dog. Most aggression is down to fear though. If the dog was barking, growling and lunging at people then obviously it felt threatened by strangers and was *fearful*. What is "plain old aggression" anyway- I've never came across it!
> 
> Every dog is allowed to bite.


rep on the way rottiefan :thumbup:

Pretty much all aggressive behaviour is a behavioural manifestation of fear (an emotional response).
What we call aggresive behaviour in dogs are distance increasing social signals - they want space and time in an uncomfortable situation.

They escalate as an animal's responses are designed to preserve energy and avoid confrontation unless absolutely necessary. They start off super small and understated - we ignore these or misunderstand them or worse punish them and the dog is forced, yes forced, to escalate his response.

Add that to our general inability to socialise dogs properly so there are soooo many situaitons that make them feel uncomfortable in. And then when they do bite because we haven't taught them how to inhibit their bite properly those bites may be injurious. Coupled with our behaviour in relation to the supervision and training of both children and dogs it truly shocks me that more dogs don't bite - they are the most restrained species, despite all our efforts to cause them to bite.


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

lilababe: Thank you for answering but: 
Puppy's are not born aggressive. they are taught this through: Irresponsible  Inadequate  ill equipped  and ignorant  people....who fail to see their little bundle of joy, start to react a little differently, eg: Posture changing around meal times, play becoming a little different, the look in your puppy's eyes, that's telling you that there is something different starting to go on in there behind their eye's. Ill Equipped .
You did say that they tried to sort the dog out " to little, to late" Inadequate 
This may have been sorted out earlier! if they had been in tune with their puppy: Irresponsible 
They should of sorted help before it had gotten any further, again they failed to see the changes in their puppy at the very first onset of changes in his behaviour. all dogs CAN be helped to a certain degree, if not to a full degree. I don't think they exhausted all their options, i don't know did they?
As for the Wii.....Well i believe you can buy a puppy's now that are fully equipped on how to play human games:  i believe they are cheep too!!
Oh come on Hun! how are dogs supposed to know that they are playing a game and not something moor serious, after all if they could NOT read their dog, then how was the dog supposed to read them!!!! a well behaved dog would of been excited and wonted to join in on the fun, not go straight in for the attack.
I agree NO child should be put in danger, but no child should be left alone with a dog.
Maybe this dog was beyond help: through no fault of his own but the liability lies not with the dog but with the owners.
As for a dog biting a child well...that would depend on the bite:
Let me tell you a little story....My 12 year old Shih Tzu is one of the most loving dog's i have ever had, he loves everyone & everything, his speciality lies with BIG dog's and CHILDREN! a couple of months ago my niece's boyfriend came down with his child (who he loves) she is very quick and jumpy (typical young child) and even though supervised she managed to stand on his paw 4 times, not on purpose, but he then snapped at her as a warning (he did connect with her leg) he then went back to play with her after she said sorry to him and gave him a stroke (supervised).
Selfish:  yes: as they should of stopped the risk from happening with the right choices, not the risk of this happening through Not making the right choices.

It would be FANTASTICK!! if dog's were born speaking the English language. and they could actually tell us " if you stand on my paw one more time, I'm going to bite you" but they speak dogy's and its our job to try to learn their language, looks, grunts, snarls, body language etc...

The people may have thought that putting the dog to sleep was their only option! "i feel sorry for this"
I am not trying to be facetious with you or anything Hun, as just reading words can maybe come across in a different manner. I am just trying to understand. BUT!! i stand by what i said that a poor baby was put to sleep, that may very well been avoided. RIP little one


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

I do agree as I have said with most of what has been said and that yes the owners were mostly to blame , the perhaps should have tried harder or found a rehoming centre who were able to cope with the dog.

IMO a bite is a bite no matter how much damage it causes and if a dog constantly bites whether it is a child or an adult well that is not acceptable .

I know I also say" well what were they doing for the dog to bite "as children can be rough with dogs and I have seen this myself as my son used to do it to my last dog and she would bare her teeth and growl at him to warn him and then move away .

This dog never ever gave any warnings and the first thing it thought of was attack, you didnt even have to do anything to it for it to lunge at you and it really was quite scary .Whether it got a fright when they were playing the wii I dont know :confused1:but honestly if you had to see this dog in the flesh you would be wary of it believe me .

Angie2011 Your comments on how the owners were Irresponsible Inadequate ill equipped and ignorant people.... is maybe quite true they do not listen to advice and think that because their other dog is of a sweeter nature that this one should have been too .Their way of being responsible was to have it PTS as they did not want anyone else to be bitten ( I was and it has some set of jaws on it for a small dog ) Yes in one way they were right for what they did ,they prevented a bigger problem that being another attack and the risk of the dog being taken from them and dealt with by the police and yes it was getting to that stage.

We will never know now if this dog could have been rehabillitated and as you said dogs are not born bad but they can be born with a fiesty temperament . Maybe I dont know that that is completely trueas when it omes down to breeding , breeders will tell you that it is wrong to breed from a dog's that have agressive tendencies as this tends to be passed on to offspring. This dog had no parentage lines to look at and the mother and father were never seen when they bought the dog so they never knew what temperaments they had which was IMO a stupid thing not to have known However, Dogs like this need to be handled with care and have the right owners who are capable of dealing with these problems alsa this dog never had


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Poor dog. Most aggression is down to fear though. If the dog was barking, growling and lunging at people then obviously it felt threatened by strangers and was *fearful*. What is "plain old aggression" anyway- I've never came across it!
> 
> Every dog is allowed to bite.


Not all of it is though  it was not fear agression I assure you , and you are very luky not to have come across aggression in what ever form it comes in

No and I do not agree with you that every dog should be allowed to bite  what a strange thing to say as if that was the case there would be a lot more dreafull and perhaps fatal attacks made by dogs 

Granted bite to defend itself if being abused or in a fight with another dog yes but not to go biting willy nilly :eek6:

I also want to add that I am also a Rottie fan , Rottiefan :thumbup:sadly lost a customer a few weeks ago that was the sweetest big guy ever


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

lilacbabe: Hi there thank you for answering, at the end of the day Hun i don't think we would ever get to the root of all the factors that molded this dog into what he had become, and alas is to late!  take care Angie2011


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I dont want to be one trying to advise on this either!
> 
> But, and I dont know if anyone will agree with me on this or not! Because I have a dog that suffers fear agression, and in my case I feel pretty confident in spotting the difference! A gog that shows agreesion would normally have its tail raised, and would be puffing itself up so to speak! it would be confident and forthcoming, whereby a dog that suffers fear agression seems to not be so in your face so to speak and its carriage seems to be not cowering but lowerand the eye contact is different - less defiant! not saying this is correct - but how it comes across to me! Sorry! not to good at explaining .
> DT


DT Just wanted to say I don't believe this to be intirely correct. A dog with fear aggression can also display the tail up, chest out and appear to be down right aggressive when infact is actually afraid. Different dogs respond in diffent ways some with the flight drive tail between the legs, moving head away from attacker. lowering body etc and then others with the fight drive. Appearing confident but not nessarsay the case. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

So sad to hear the poor dog got PTS. If this poor dog was placed in the right home then I bet this little doggy could of got the help he needed to become a happy good pet. People really should think before getting a dog and get a breed that suits their family not just something they like the look of etc. Some people should simply not get a dog at all.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Haven't read all the posts but I know of a Mal who started being aggressive recently to her owners, after a vet check he found she had a torn cruciate ligament, she showed no visible signs of this. Medication and one op later she is getting back to her nomal self, so they deinitely should get the dog checked over IMO.
Another Mal who slowly progressed in his aggression was found to have a brain tumor and eventually pts as nothing could be done.

First port of call, a good vet - second a behaviourist/trainer.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Haven't read all the posts but I know of a Mal who started being aggressive recently to her owners, after a vet check he found she had a torn cruciate ligament, she showed no visible signs of this. Medication and one op later she is getting back to her nomal self, so they deinitely should get the dog checked over IMO.
> Another Mal who slowly progressed in his aggression was found to have a brain tumor and eventually pts as nothing could be done.
> 
> First port of call, a good vet - second a behaviourist/trainer.


The OP has said the dog has now been PTS :frown:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think before anyone slates anybody for having an aggressive dog pts they need to have been in that position and be in a situation where its far too dangerous to keep the dog. Ive been there myself and i can tell you its not something i would want to go through again. Everyones situation is different not everyone has the time to work with a behaviourist because its what could happen while this work is going on.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

I believe that some dogs, just like some children, can be ruined by their upbringing while others can overcome it. Maybe it's for the best that this one lost it's life. 

I don't have a lot of sympathy for that couple though and hope they think twice before ever getting another dog. I hope more that they don't, they are not good dog parents. I have certainly made enough of my own mistakes with our Biscuit, but at least I sought help and followed good advice given and did not let things accelerate till there was a bad bite!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

My lil Babies said:


> The OP has said the dog has now been PTS :frown:


Oh i'm sorry to hear that 

Run free at the bridge lil one where all your troubles will be gone. xxx


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

This is what pisses me off about people taking on patterdales when they know eff all about them.

Poor dog. I'm not gonna say anymore because I'll get carried into a rage.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> This is what pisses me off about people taking on patterdales when they know eff all about them.
> 
> Poor dog. I'm not gonna say anymore because I'll get carried into a rage.


Exactly that was what the problem was right from the start . They live in a flat and that for a start is a no no for a Patterdale .

Typical I want that breed and never did any research on it


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It sounds like the owners were wrong to have had the dog in the first place and they should have rehomed it as soon as the problems started. But they did try a behaviourist, they did get the dog castrated, and they didnt ignore the problem totally. I think they did exactly the right thing to have it pts. There are thousands of dogs without problems being pts through lack of homes for them, and no rescue place is going to take on a dog like that - far kinder to end its very unhappy life.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> ...they should have rehomed [the dog] as soon as the problems started.
> But they did try a behaviourist, they did get the dog castrated, and they didnt ignore the problem totally.
> I think they did exactly the right thing to have it pts.


i don't think they made much of a good-faith effort - in fact, since MANAGEMENT without training 
would have prevented that last nasty bite, i think they were pretty pathetic, taken all round. :thumbdown:


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