# Active or Non Active Register, I need advice to make the right decision



## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

I did post this bit in my original thread but it got lost because the inbreeding part is clearly of more interest than a single cat and it's size but I am in turmoil about making a decision about possibly removing one of my kittens that is being bred off the active register.

She is of very small type. I still have her sister who I am neutering on my vets advice, she did not advise me against it because she is small of type but becasue she is too small to safely have kittens.

The cat who is being bred from is at best no bigger and could well be smaller than my girl.

I know first labour and delivery can be difficult but she went through much worse than would be expected for a first litter and I thought I would have the opportunity to talk to the breeder before she put her to stud again to try and convince her not to breed from her again.

Because I am no longer in contact with this breeder after she allowed a 3 week old kitten to suffer before dying rather than pay to have her put to sleep, I am not going to be able to have a rational conversation with her about it and I want to make the right decsion for the cat rather than let any of my emotional feelings influence my decsions.

My only interest is in the cat, vet says too small, although I am not experienced, I think she is far too small but I need advice to help me decide what to do and when I did mention it to the breeder, all she said was that vets didnt know what they were talking about and she knew more than they did.

She very much is a small cat, certainly not good for the breed itself but my real concern is if she should be breeding her at all when she is so small

Please help, I just do not know what to do


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well to be fair, smaller breeds of pedigree cats are always very small compared to moggies and it may be that if the vet is not experienced with smaller breeds she may not realise that the cat is actually not all that small.

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the cat, you have.

Liz


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

What breed is she? I would go with your gut feeling, If you think she is not suitable to be bred from then dont, you know your own cat.

Large cats can also have problems birthing.

Sory if iam not being much help


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

I would advise that if you are not happy with the circumstances that the cat is being bred from (which clearly you are not) then as the breeder you are entitled to do what you think is best for the welfare of the cat. 

I certainly would, its what any responsible breeder would do but only you can make that decision as you know the cat in question.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

just to say - I have read this but I can't answer as I don't have the experience. Maybe contact another burmese breeder with pics and info i.e. weight and see what they say?:confused1:


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2009)

I understand your concerns for this girl, you seem to have a real passion for breeding and want to do things the right way which is brilliant, but not everybody will think the same way as you, people a lot of the time will have very different ideas, and ways of doing things. You feel her sister that you have is too small for breeding so you are not using her, this is your choice, but this lady doesn't agree with you, you may think it is wrong but you can't decide for others, thats up to them. We all have to decide for ourselves and then live with outcome, whether that be good or bad, and let others live with their descions.


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Rather a large omission there, sorry

She is burmese 

My vet is experienced in burmese which is why I asked her if it was becasue she was small for the breed or if she was just too small


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

It is your welfare of the cat, can you speak to the person who bred her to see if she will breed her again?

If you do take her off the active, just think that it doesnt actualy Stop her from breeding her as she still has the cat and could sell them un'reg


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Do I understand correctly, that you sold this girl for breeding and have now changed your mind (for whatever reason)?

If that is the case then, unless the person you sold her to co-operates, there is likely to be trouble one way or another. I think your only sensible option is going to be to offer a full refund. If not, you might even find yourself in trouble with the GCCF - no doubt you will be able to get out of trouble easily because you have a good reason for changing your mind, but still it might not be a pleasant experience.

Liz


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

westie said:


> but this lady doesn't agree with you, you may think it is wrong but you can't decide for others, thats up to them. We all have to decide for ourselves and then live with outcome, whether that be good or bad, and let others live with their descions.


If a breeder let a kitten be bred from and that kitten then died becasue of complications due to size, would that not make me complicit in that?

If breeders do not look after the welfare of the cats they breed, should they be breeding

It is all well and good to say this lady disagrees, the vets also disagree with her. Is it not my responsibility to make sure this cat is not at risk through being bred when too small?


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

lizward said:


> Do I understand correctly, that you sold this girl for breeding and have now changed your mind (for whatever reason)?
> 
> If that is the case then, unless the person you sold her to co-operates, there is likely to be trouble one way or another. I think your only sensible option is going to be to offer a full refund. If not, you might even find yourself in trouble with the GCCF - no doubt you will be able to get out of trouble easily because you have a good reason for changing your mind, but still it might not be a pleasant experience.
> 
> Liz


I gave this lady this kitten becasue she wanted one of the babies. When she was given, there was a discussion because we did not then know if she was going to be big enough or good enough for breeding, that is the reason she was on the active register

If I decided it was in the best interest of the cat, there was no money involved but I would obviously offer to take the cat back

The only thing I am worried about is the welfare of the cat, my personal feelings do are not relevant which is why I am seeking as much advice as I can get so that I can back my decision up, whichever way it goes


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## rottiesloveragdolls (Nov 2, 2007)

*Sorry im not qiete with it here  did you breed the kitten yourself then sell her as an potential Active queen? but now say the cat you feel is too small to breed from? 
I dont want to sound rude but it is upto the REPSONSIBLE Breeder to make sure all kittens that may go as potential queens/studs are of the right size/build/colour etc surely you had some idea of the size when the kitten left you? *


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

rottiesloveragdolls said:


> *Sorry im not qiete with it here  did you breed the kitten yourself then sell her as an potential Active queen? but now say the cat you feel is too small to breed from?
> I dont want to sound rude but it is upto the REPSONSIBLE Breeder to make sure all kittens that may go as potential queens/studs are of the right size/build/colour etc surely you had some idea of the size when the kitten left you? *


You are absolutely right and what I am about to say might sound naive or plain stupid.

This breeder wanted one of my kittens. I gave her to her because at that time, she was a friend and she could not afford to pay for her.

It was agreed when she took her that neither of us knew if she was ultimately going to be big enough to breed from and I said that if she did not turn out to be big enough to breed from, I would be willing to take her back at any time.

On the whole, this breeder is responsible but there are some of her practices that really are wrong.

Had we still been friends, before she considered putting her to stud again, I was going to speak to her about not breeding again because of her size.

Because there was an agreement that we both knew she may not be big enough and I don't think she is (nor does my vet who is experienced), I am not going to have the opportunity to talk to her about not putting her through it again, I need to be either happy that leaving her on the active register is the right thing to do because if I left her on the active and sometime down the line found out something bad had happened that I could have prevented, I would be responsible for that. alternatively, if I remove her from the active register, I need to know that I made the right decsion for the good of the cat


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

rottiesloveragdolls said:


> *
> I dont want to sound rude but it is upto the REPSONSIBLE Breeder to make sure all kittens that may go as potential queens/studs are of the right size/build/colour etc surely you had some idea of the size when the kitten left you? *


You can not always tell what adult size a 13/14 week old kitten is going to end up as 

I agree with Liz here. I don't think after selling the cat on the active register that you can just make the decision to change it to non active. I may be wrong, but in the eyes of the law, as money has changed hands you have no further say in what happens to that cat. Even if the GCCF did change the cat to non active, the owner has every right to contest that in a court of law and have that decision over turned.

I think your only way round it is to talk to her owner and explain your concerns, and see if you can come to an agreement, thats the only thing you can do.


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Saikou said:


> You can not always tell what adult size a 13/14 week old kitten is going to end up as
> 
> I agree with Liz here. . I may be wrong, but in the eyes of the law, as money has changed hands you have no further say in what happens to that cat.
> do.


I did not sell any kitten, I let her have her for nothing for 2 reasons, she could not afford to pay and at 13 weeks, neither of us knew if she was going to be big enough and I knew before I even knew she had put her to her big stud that I did not really want her to have kittens because she was so small.

yes, I was intimidated when I tried to tell her she was too small, she is a fierce lady but I felt even then she was going to have problems because of her size which she did have

her maiden birth was more traumatic than any maiden birth the breeder had ever experienced and although I do not have the experience she might have, I do know a small cat when I see one.

I agree, had I sold her as a breeding queen, I would be bang out of order but 1) she was not sold 2) she was not even given as a breeding queen, she was a wait and see kitten but the breeder put her to stud without my knowing beforehand as she knew how I felt about her size


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

I believe money did not change hands so in theory she could claim the cat back, easier said than done though.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2009)

gmj said:


> If a breeder let a kitten be bred from and that kitten then died becasue of complications due to size, would that not make me complicit in that?
> 
> If breeders do not look after the welfare of the cats they breed, should they be breeding
> 
> It is all well and good to say this lady disagrees, the vets also disagree with her. Is it not my responsibility to make sure this cat is not at risk through being bred when too small?


perhaps you should not of let this lady have a cat from you if you have different views about breeding, I take it you knew her before hand? she surely has not changed the way she does things since having a cat from you so in which case you knew what she was like before you let her have a cat and now don't like it, so yes you are right the responsiblity lies with you for allowing her to take this girl in the first place. If breeders do not look after the welfare of the cats they breed then why would you sell to them and then critcise their ethics, did you not do this before hand? If you felt unsure of her size before she went why did you not hold her back until you were sure?


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## rottiesloveragdolls (Nov 2, 2007)

gmj said:


> You are absolutely right and what I am about to say might sound naive or plain stupid.
> 
> This breeder wanted one of my kittens. I gave her to her because at that time, she was a friend and she could not afford to pay for her.
> 
> ...


*
so you gave her the kitten, blimey wish i had friends like you  if you take her off the active reg she will prob still breed from her,  as no money changed hands i would try to get the cat back explain you and your vets dont think she is suitable for breeding if she is not prepared to have her speyed? other than that i would see the cab and talk to them about it? *


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Angeli said:


> I believe money did not change hands so in theory she could claim the cat back, easier said than done though.


Correct, at no time has money changed hands, I even paid for the vaccinations for her

I would happily take the cat back and have her neuterd but it would be better for her to stay in the home she is now used to but that is not to say I wouldnt want her

But, that is not my ultimate aim, the only thing I want is to do the right thing by the cat because my gut tells me leaving her on the active register is leaving her at risk if she is bred from again/

I am also going to do an annonymous enquiry to GCCF for guidence also

I am very emotional about the whole thing which is why I am determined only to do what is morally right.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Money or no money, I think the cat is still legally 'owned' by this other breeder. Does she have a pink slip transferred into her name ?

I am not saying I disagree with your intentions to protect the cat, but if you have no rights to the cat thats it, the current owner can do what they like, all you can do is appeal to their better nature.

If you want to know how you stand legally you would need to speak to a solicitor.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

rottiesloveragdolls said:


> so you gave her the kitten, blimey wish i had friends like you


Me too!


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

The GCCF do not get involved in breeder to breeder disputes themselves though they might still be able to give you advice. The only thing you can do without any problem as the breeder is to change her to non-active from active. As has already been pointed out though, it might not stop her from being bred from if her owner is intent on doing so.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gmj said:


> her maiden birth was more traumatic than any maiden birth the breeder had ever experienced


Well, to be fair, if it didn't end in a caesarean it can't have been THAT bad, and a second litter should be easier.

liz


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Thank you so much for all the input.

I understand to some, it may sound like I am not doing the 'right thing' by wanting to stop this breeding. I was happy to let her have the kitten and to be honest, if any other friend wanted one of my kittens, I would probably do the same, I certainly am no business woman!

Depending on what GCCF say, I most certainly will be trying to appeal to her better nature but sadly, that is not likely to work because there is no breeder in the country that knows as much as she knows (that is not my opinion though I wont dispute she is knowledgable).

If GCCF suggested that breeding from her is not a good idea, if she was taken off the register, she is unlikely to breed from her as she has a low opinion of anyone who breeds kittens that can not be registered.

I do think it likely she will want me to take her back but I have no problem with that since I don't like the lack of veterinary care either but although that is a problem for me, on the whole, her cats are well cared for.

I cant stress enough that I only what want is right for the only baby girl I did not keep and after all the input I have had, I feel exactly the same. 

There is a big part of me that really does want to be wrong but of those who have seen the size of her, 2 vets say she is not big enough and the one breeder I have spoken directly to would not breed from a cat under 6lb in weight, something she does not come close to.

Boy do I wish this was not happening but the alternative is to sit and worry for the next 6 years but not knowing if she is still being used to breed or even if she is alive or dead


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think you would have difficulty getting her back. Your friend, I would think is now technically the owner, especially if she is registered to her on the Active, and as such can do what she likes with the kitten/cat, within the law of course.
Even if I got a kitten free from the local farmer, he would find it difficult to claim it back after I had had it for a while, unless he could prove abuse, as I would be its owner.

She could say you "dumped" the kitten/cat on her, she could say that by placing the kitten on the active you, as a breeder, felt she was suitable for breeding, she could say the kitten was a gift from you to her.
Whatever she says it is your word against hers and as the cat lives with her, I would think she has the upper hand.

I think breeders often tend to think they have a say in what happens to their kittens when they leave home, which is true if the new owner is cooperative but if they do not care or are openly hostile then that say can be difficult to enforce.

I sympathise as you are concerned for your cat and you have obviously lost a friend too, but maybe there is little you can do. :sad:


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