# vet overdosed wormer on 6week kitten



## catcoonz

so my 6 week old kittens one was slightly smaller weighing 1.2kgs yesterday, had vet check all ok, then vet accidentally gave the same kitten 2 wormers so double dosed with panacur. he assured me all will be fine but tonight my kitten is fighting for his life, gone so thin all i can feel is bones. hes drinking tiny amounts and eating just a small bit ut nowhere near as much as he was. he now weighs 500gms so this is a dramatic weight lose in just 24 hours.
any help how i can get him to recover please. ive tried all i know but its not working.


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## MCWillow

Can you get him back to the vets?

I dont have any advice, but maybe the vets can put him on a drip and a feed drip thing (?) to give him every chance possible?

They should be bending over backwards to save this baby from their mistake


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## spid

That's terrible! Hope he is okay.


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## catcoonz

cars in the garage being repaired, just my luck, phoned vet and they said they will be out in an hour.
what is in the fluid they give in the neck?


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## spid

saline I think.


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## catcoonz

kitten has a lot of white liquid coming out rear end, never seen this before, hope vets hurry up but im expecting the worse.


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## carly87

Are you sure your scales are working propperly? Firstly, 1.2 KG is humungus for a 6 week old kitten, and secondly, I don't know that it's possible for a cat of that size to lose 700 grams in one night. He'd have to lose muscle tissue as well as fluid, and I just don't know that that's possible in one evening.

Really hope he pulls through.


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## catcoonz

the weights definitely right as the vet weighed them. my biggest kitten in this litter weighs 1.8kgs and he is huge, he could easily pass for a 13 week old.
this poorly kitten is tonight just bone with skin hanging, i can feel all his ribs and spine which i couldnt do yesterday.
you could say hes the runt being smaller than the others, his sire at 8 months old weighed one stone, vets was amazed.


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## gskinner123

I really don't want to sound disbelieving, but it's almost inconceivable for 6 week old kittens to weigh so much, even for the larger breeds. It's also almost inconceivable that he's down to 500g from 1.2Kg (I think you said?) in less than 24 hours... had you previously weighed the kittens at home and not just at the vet?

Either way, I do hope he'll be okay. A double dose of wormer, when dosed correctly for weight, really shouldn't have such drastic effects as wormers have a wide margin for error... but a quadruple, etc, dose might be a different story.


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## catcoonz

i know it sounds hard to believe and the vet used his scales, maybe they are wrong but i have had other kittens weighing this weight before, they are from american lines and the americans have the largest mainecoons in the world.
anyway the kitten has a poorly tummy and the vet agreed it was due to overdose of worming, has given saline injection, metacam and an antibiotic injection so hopefully with some tlc he will be ok.
check out the american lines you will be amazed at how big they are.


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## Ang2

Oh CC been out all evening and just seen this. Do you have any charcoal? I think his best bet would have been regular sub fluids through the night and electrolytes, and keeping him warm.

Im praying for your little one, and will be heading here when I log in tomorrow.


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## Guest

Was it definitely cat wormer? It wasn't dog, by mistake?


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## carly87

Why on earth has he given him an antibiotic injection? If he agrees the problem is the wormer, then what good is that going to do! Antibiotics treat bacteria, not wormer overdoses. Any why the metacam? Do you have another vet you could go to? The fact that this one didn't keep your kitten in with such a massive weight loss and work with him more viggorously is also a worry. Don't mean to criticise, but this has me very concerned.

They must be humungus kittens, more like dogs when they're grown if they weigh that much. They must eat you out of house and home!


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## Cookieandme

the weight loss must be distressing

I agree with Carly though I would rather feed them for a week than a fortnight - I think they would bankrupt me


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## Alaskacat

Oh how dreadful, I hope the kitten is improving this morning. I'm amazed that a double dose of wormer could have such a horrible affect. Did he react when you wormed him at 2/3 weeks (if that is your program)? Must admit mine don't see a vet until 9 weeks for jabs, I do wormers at home but that is more to do with worry about stressing them than about the Vet getting it wrong. 

I so hope he is better this am, hopefully Mum will have fed him through the night. Thinking of you.


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## OrientalSlave

I wonder how the vet checks their scales? Personally I think some of that weight lose is inaccurate scales. I googled 'Panacur overdose kitten' and it seems to be a very safe drug and even a massive overdoes (3x or 4x) seems to usually be OK, so I'm not sure that's really the cause of your kitten's illness.

Do hope he is OK.


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## catcoonz

kitten was taken to the vets at 3am and put on a drip. vets cant say for sure if he will be ok but there may have been another problem with him awaiting blood tests but hes still alive.
the vet which came out gave metacam as he was in pain with a poorly tummy and the antibiotic as a hot nose so we was thinking an infection possibly.
when i wormed at 2 weeks and 4 weeks he was sick and did lose a little weight but then continued to gain weight again through the week so i didnt think anything of it.
i always have the vet check several times, once as soon as they are born the vet comes out to check mum, then 6 weeks, 9 weeks and 12 weeks.
they do cost a fortune to feed as kittens and yes my bank is very unhealthy but its all part of breeding so i expect to be skint.
not all of my kittens get this big only a few, most weigh the average 1.9kgs at 12 weeks but occassionally there will be the exception of a huge baby who goes on to be 8kgs at 6 months old. when i have time and at the vets next i will take a photo of the weight and age of any big kittens so you can see how big they get but for now i do have to go to the vets to visit my sick kitten. will update later this evening.


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## colliemerles

_i have everything crossed here for your baby, i do hope he pulls through, do keep us posted,how very stressful for you, sending you a hug xxxxxx_


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## catcoonz

OrientalSlave said:


> I wonder how the vet checks their scales? Personally I think some of that weight lose is inaccurate scales. I googled 'Panacur overdose kitten' and it seems to be a very safe drug and even a massive overdoes (3x or 4x) seems to usually be OK, so I'm not sure that's really the cause of your kitten's illness.
> 
> Do hope he is OK.


thinking about it the vet did say i could use advocate on lactating queens, i forgot to mention this to the emergency vet last night.

i also broke my rule of having visits after 9 weeks old and had a viewing as the lady was going on holiday.....to be honest it could be anything, im just guessing as the vet did last night it was overdose of panacur as this was the last thing he had before becoming poorly.

my last litter i had a kitten that was the same but she is doing fine now, now im wondering whats going wrong.


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## kodakkuki

Hoping beyond all belief this little guy pulls through; I have an extreme soft spot for MCs, but don't think my yorkies would appreciate a cat 3 times their size! A stone!? My gran only weighs 5 stone!
Could it be an allergic reaction to the wormer? Maybe with a genetic component?


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## catcoonz

househens said:


> Was it definitely cat wormer? It wasn't dog, by mistake?


the wormer says cat and dog, there are graduation markings for cats, then the same for dogs.
i wonder if he did do the wrong markings by mistake, i will ask this vet to check for me whilst im going.


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## PetloverJo

So sorry to hear about your kitten really hope he pulls through. I can't even imagine how distressing this must be for you.

Come on little kitten pull through, your mummy is really worried about you.


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## spid

I hope he's okay.

I *don't* find his original size that hard to believe - my kittens were 6 weeks on Friday and the largest was over 800g and he's not a MaineCoon. The others are not far behind.


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## Ang2

I think the weight issue is immaterial at the moment. Lets not detract from the main issue, and make CC feel like her credibility is being doubted. Maybe another thread on kitten weights at a later date 

For now, sending much needed hugs and support


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## gskinner123

I wasn't doubting cc's credibility. 1.8kg is an amazing weight for a 6 week old kitten and though I know MC's are large cats I'm not familiar with some of the huge US lines that she mentioned so I've no doubt the kittens' weights aren't beyond the realms of possibility. It was more the vet's credibility I was doubting, considering s/he seems to have managed to have vastly overdosed a kitten with wormer. We can all make mistakes, even the professionals, but it's just so worrying when a vet can make such a simple blunder... fortunately this time with something fairly innocuous like a wormer. They must be thinking that the wormer o/d isn't the cause of the kitten being unwell as they've given antibiotics. Do so hope he'll be okay... heartbreaking to see a big, healthy kitten go so drastically downhill, I know.


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## Calvine

catcoonz said:


> so my 6 week old kittens one was slightly smaller weighing 1.2kgs yesterday, had vet check all ok, then vet accidentally gave the same kitten 2 wormers so double dosed with panacur. he assured me all will be fine but tonight my kitten is fighting for his life, gone so thin all i can feel is bones. hes drinking tiny amounts and eating just a small bit ut nowhere near as much as he was. he now weighs 500gms so this is a dramatic weight lose in just 24 hours.
> any help how i can get him to recover please. ive tried all i know but its not working.


Awful! I foster and dosed a litter of six myself. Used Panacur paste...you do one then put it into a pen so you know you have done it, otherwise if you have six black ones or six tabbies you may well get them mixed up. How on earth could a vet make a mistake like that? I do hope the kitten is OK. But the vet is responsible and you should get back there asap and there should be no charge I would hope.


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## Ianthi

How's your little kitten doing Catcoonz? 

I expect his liver is the problem given the excessive dosing. However, 'safe' Panacur is ( and it is a chemical, after all ) a double dose is still nonetheless, a lot for a small liver to process.

The fluids should almost certainly help.


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## tylow

Gosh I really hope this little kitten pulls through, our friends, very experienced breeders have just lost a number of kittens from a couple of litters following worming them with Panacur  They used a different bottle for their other kittens and they are fine. Their vet is actually taking it up with the company. It's absolutely heartbreaking.


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## colliemerles

tylow said:


> Gosh I really hope this little kitten pulls through, our friends, very experienced breeders have just lost a number of kittens from a couple of litters following worming them with Panacur  They used a different bottle for their other kittens and they are fine. Their vet is actually taking it up with the company. It's absolutely heartbreaking.


_OMG, how awful, that is heart breaking, i would never of thought a wormer could do this, ,,,_


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## sarahecp

I'm sorry to hear about your kitten cc  

I really hope he'll be ok, keeping fingers and paws crossed and sending positive and healing vibes xx


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## we love bsh's

tylow said:


> Gosh I really hope this little kitten pulls through, our friends, very experienced breeders have just lost a number of kittens from a couple of litters following worming them with Panacur  They used a different bottle for their other kittens and they are fine. Their vet is actually taking it up with the company. It's absolutely heartbreaking.


Really strange this as a friend of myn wormed a litter with panacur and half the litter became really ill, skin and bone one died.They had white poo's also.Wonder if the company has some issues going on here?


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## tylow

Our friends were wondering if there had been a manufacturing mistake as the kittens that died were all given the most recently purchased Panacur. Every kitten that was given that batch died.


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## dagny0823

Someone (well everyone who has a kitten who has had this happen) should definitely contact the manufacturer with batch numbers. It could be that a batch was adulterated, and this is causing all the problems. If they are aware, then they should do a recall of all the batches in question.

What a horrible thing--so terribly sad that this would happen. I do hope the little kitten pulls through.


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## we love bsh's

Yes defo wants looking into ill get the batch numbr and put it on her see what others think.


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## Mad4Muttz

i reckon the vets should pay your bill as (if i am reading this correctly) their fault xx although i do hope the little on pulls through

thinking of you


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## Cazzer

so sorry to hear about that litter of kittens, so sad . Hope your little one pulls through Catcooz


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## catcoonz

what a rollercoaster of a day, kitten is still alive but not very well. the vets have said it is the wormer as they done blood tests, the vet also admitted he gave the wrong dose to all the kittens, he gave the double markings which is the dog markings, i have another kitten not looking very well.
been on fluids all day with both kittens and now ive got them home, the vets cant do anymore its just a case of 50/50 and wait to see if i can pull them through. they are not dehydrated now so as long as i can keep the fluids up i decided to give them a chance at home with me. the other kitten hasnt lost too much weight so im sure he will be fine.
i think a thread on weights would be great.
thats so sad to read others have lost kittens due to panacur and yes my tube was the new batch the vet had delivered that day.
i need to worm my other litter but im not going to use panacur, does anybody know of another wormer for kittens at 4 weeks old, just incase it is the panacur. not sure why 2 of the kittens are poorly but the other 3 are fine although the vet only overdosed the one kitten, which was my own fault as i let go of the kitten and it jumped back into the carrier, i then took what kitten i thought hadnt been done but picked the wrong kitten up.
the vets are very good they havent charged me for emergency care and if i need them tonight they will come and collect the kitten.
i have been told that as i wormed the queen the same time as the kittens was done the wormer passes through the milk so it was a case of this kitten being 5 x overdosed which is more dangerous.
thankyou for your wishes and i will keep updating my post, paws crossed he makes it as im going to have a very sad family as they have recently lost their kitten due to a heart murmor so this kitten is extra special to them.


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## Alaskacat

What an awful situation, my thoughts are with you and the kittens. 

If people could start a new thread with the batch numbers of the potentially concerning wormer I would be grateful as have to worm my kittens and have new Panacur paste here. I have only wormed with Panacur but the information on this thread is really worrying.

I so hope by the morning you will have positive news for us.


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## catcoonz

Luckily i picked the panacur box up so the batch number of my panacur is:

E049A02

Expiry Date: 11 - 2014


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## we love bsh's

panacur liquid

E512A02

06/2013

This bottle was the bottle where a kitten died,1 kitten very ill weak white poo's,2 kitten were ok.


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## sharon_gurney

we love bsh's said:


> Really strange this as a friend of myn wormed a litter with panacur and half the litter became really ill, skin and bone one died.They had white poo's also.Wonder if the company has some issues going on here?


Just wondering if there is a link here...

One of my kittens which was wormed at 6wks with panacure did exactly the same. Went down to skin and bone in a matter of couple of days it also had the white poo and very dehydrated.

I took it to the vets who just gave me atibiotics and told me that she was too small to go on a drip and to take her home.

I sat with her on my knee and she was almost life less I sat crying expecting to lose her.

But the following morning she was back to eating, drinking and back to being a happy kitten. She has gone on to make a full recovery and you would never know she had been ill.


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## Ianthi

tylow said:


> Gosh I really hope this little kitten pulls through, our friends, very experienced breeders have just lost a number of kittens from a couple of litters following worming them with Panacur  They used a different bottle for their other kittens and they are fine. Their vet is actually taking it up with the company. It's absolutely heartbreaking.


This is heartbreaking. What a dreadful thing to happen. Strangely enough I remembered your post about this recently and meant to ask ( if you don't mind ) what exactly the symptoms were ie liver toxicity?

I realise the above is due to a faulty batch but I always hold the belief that we have to be very careful about medications ( even in older animals ) since it's virtually impossible to predict those who may be more sensitive than others to the particular drug prescribed. We also have to rely on adverse reactions being reported and sadly this isn't always the case! I'm also amazed to hear sometimes that meds we routinely use in the UK for certain conditions have been 'discontinued' in the US owing to for severe adverse reactions!


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## Lisac27

I can't even imagine how you must be feeling, I really hope your kittens pull through.
I wormed my kittens at 2 weeks old (and mum) with panacur 10 percent liquid on monday/ Tuesday and Wednesday. They are all absolutely fine, thank god, but I would of thought twice about doing them if they had been due a week later

I understand how attached you get to these tiny characters, i really hope they are ok xxx


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## Ianthi

catcoonz said:


> .the vets are very good they havent charged me for emergency care and if i need them tonight they will come and collect the kitten.


I should certainly hope not given the nature of the error! What a worry for you as well!

Glad to hear the little one is home! I'll keep my fingers crossed he'll be fine.

Do please keep us updated!


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## carly87

Guess who won't be worming iwth Panacur? Just took delivery of a new bottle a few days ago, but I'd rather wait until 9 weeks and get them with Milbemax than risk Panacur if it's doing this. Are there any other safe wormers for younger kittens?


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## we love bsh's

Its really sounding like the panacur i dont want to treat myn now think ill wait maybe change product


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## catcoonz

My other batch number when my other litter one kitten had weight loss is E047A03 expiry 07/2014.
may not have been the panacur which caused this as she didnt have white liquid stools, just refused to eat or drink for a day then went back to normal. thought i would just post the number to be safe.


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## we love bsh's

A new thread would be good here to check a little easier.


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## catcoonz

started new thread on possible faulty batch of panacur. ive added my 2 numbers and the number of the other persons panacur aswell.
quick update on my sick kitten, he is now drinking on his own but i still have to syringe feed AD food.


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## Ang2

CC, I believe Pyrantel Pamoate is the safest wormer for kittens.


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## catcoonz

Ang2 said:


> CC, I believe Pyrantel Pamoate is the safest wormer for kittens.


thankyou, ive never heard of this wormer, do i get it online? xx


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## Luz

I have been reading this with trepidation. I so hope your kitten rallies round. hugs.


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## Purple~Haze

I am so sorry to hear about your kittens. Have everything crossed that they will be much better tomorrow.

My vet gave me Vitaminthe for worming kittens, not sure if you can get it in the UK though.


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## Ang2

catcoonz said:


> thankyou, ive never heard of this wormer, do i get it online? xx


Yes, got mine on Ebay from USA. About £12 for a huge bottle which has a shelf life of 4 years.


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## catcoonz

update: one kitten is now running around playing, looks better so he will be fine, however the sick kitten i will try my best today and the vets have said they have done all they can, it maybe time to let him go.
im giving him today as i saw him feed from mum but hes so weak he cant move, i really dont know what else to do to help him. i dont want him to suffer but worried i havent given him a chance as yet, what a difficult decision.......his nose is cold today whereas it was hot before, do i let him go?


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## havoc

I'm a bit confused. Are we talking about Panacur liquid or the paste? Or both? An earlier thread mentioned 'graduations' which only pertain to the paste but I'm not sure if others who had problems used paste or liquid. With the liquid the dosage is exactly the same for kittens and puppies and is a 'half' dose given over three days. A 'double' dose would therefore only be the single dose for a one off worming treatment and shouldn't _in itself_ cause a problem. I've never used the paste so don't know if the graduations for puppies and kittens are different but I can't see why they would be.


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## OrientalSlave

I find myself wondering if this is a 'swiss cheese' thing going on - the paste or liquid is stronger than it should be *and *the vet's scales are not accurate so the overdose is much more than first thought to be.

I've only used the liquid, can't remember which strength but it was 1ml per kitten for each of 3 days.


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## havoc

> I've only used the liquid, can't remember which strength but it was 1ml per kitten for each of 3 days.


The dosage for the 10% is 0.5ml per kg for the three day regime. There is a 1ml per kg dosage for one off dosing for 'routine treatment for adult cats and dogs'. I weigh each kitten and give an exact dose per weight. I'll bet there are many kittens which have been mistakenly dosed at the higher rate over three days with little or no adverse effect.



> I find myself wondering if this is a 'swiss cheese' thing going on


Me too.


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## Alaskacat

> update: one kitten is now running around playing, looks better so he will be fine, however the sick kitten i will try my best today and the vets have said they have done all they can, it maybe time to let him go.
> im giving him today as i saw him feed from mum but hes so weak he cant move, i really dont know what else to do to help him. i dont want him to suffer but worried i havent given him a chance as yet, what a difficult decision.......his nose is cold today whereas it was hot before, do i let him go?


That is such an awful decision to have to make, I really feel for you. Of course you've given him every chance and you have to take into account the Vet's advise. I know though you, like anyone, will try to make him better but if time will not do that I don't see what you can do. I suppose ask the Vets he can recover from the chemical in time or if you are prolonging the inevitable.

I'm sorry I can't offer any guidance at all, but didn't want to read and run. Hopefully someone else can offer better advise. Has he gained any weight back? If he is drinking he must be more hydrated you'd think, so you would hope the Hills AD would give him energy, but if no sign of improvement I don't know what to say. You are keeping him warm presumably.

Big hugs to you at this horrible time.


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## havoc

> This bottle was the bottle where a kitten died,1 kitten very ill weak white poo's,2 kitten were ok


I also find this very confusing if it is a problem at source. I'd expect all kittens in a litter to react to some extent even if it only affects a few seriously. This is more akin to vaccine reactions when there's nothing wrong with the batch but one kitten reacts for some reason and we never know why.


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## Jiskefet

If, all of a sudden, kittens start getting sick from the panacur, even if not all of them do, there is something wrong.

The new ingredient, or the wrongfully added ingredient, or the higher than usual dose, may not be harmful to ALL kittens, but if so many reports suddenly start coming in of kittens losing weight and having white poo, there is some ingredient or a dosage mistake to which a fair percentage of kittens is very sensitive.


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## Alaskacat

Even more confused, I've just checked my wormers and I have used one of the possibly effected batches this week. E049A02 is on my paste syringes and I used it on 6 7 week old kittens yesterday and a 4 month old kitten had three doses last week. I have had no reaction at all thank goodness. The graduations on the paste (18.75%) are confusing, you have to go by the pen marks not the plastic physical graduations so I would have thought many pets would have been given a higher dose over the years. 

Seeing the Vet tomorrow so will ask about alternatives as worried about using it on the 2 week old's in the wardrobe now. 

Really hope the poorly kitten improves today and pulls through.


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## Jiskefet

CC, how is your little one now???
I so hope he is going to pull through.....
Poor little mite.


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## PetloverJo

Have you tried giving him some sugar water CC. I see that Tashi gave Hope that and it perk her up a little. She also put the little baby down her top to keep it warm. Please don't give up on him.


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## havoc

I have a part used bottle of the liquid which is obviously a newer batch than any already mentioned as the expiry date is the end of 2014. It caused no problem with my last litter so I see no reason not to use it in the future.


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## havoc

I'm wondering why we aren't hearing about problems with puppies. Does anyone know any dog breeders who have had problems or are these adverse reactions confined to kittens? If only kittens then cause and effect needs to be looked at much more closely.


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## catcoonz

im taking the kitten back to the vets at 11am for another fluid injection, he hasnt gained any weight but also hasnt lost any more so im not giving up yet. 
yes he has a pet heat pad to keep him warm and again is up my jumper in the day gums are a very pale pink despite sugar water given every hour.
it was the paste form of panacur where it has 2 markings, one for cats and one for dogs which is the bigger markings.
the kitten must be sensitive to the wormer as when i gave the correct dose he was sick and i didnt think any more of it as he was growing and eating fine the next day.
being given panacur for a 3kg cat in one dose obviously his system couldnt cope with this and stopped eating, of course any kitten with liquid stools is going to lose weight and dehydrate quickly which has been the problem, i wasnt getting enough fluids into him so im partly to blame.
im not the type of person to give up, so even if he has a 1% chance to me this is still a chance, but obviously i wont let him suffer. as hes feeding from mum which he wasnt doing before i feel there is more of a chance but needs an extra fluid intake which he will have at 11am, then i will just take it from there.
dont worry i will not give up easily with this kitten.


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## Ianthi

catcoonz said:


> update: one kitten is now running around playing, looks better so he will be fine, however the sick kitten i will try my best today and the vets have said they have done all they can, it maybe time to let him go.
> im giving him today as i saw him feed from mum but hes so weak he cant move, i really dont know what else to do to help him. i dont want him to suffer but worried i havent given him a chance as yet, what a difficult decision.......his nose is cold today whereas it was hot before, do i let him go?


What an awful situation to be in and I really feel for you. Is he in pain or just poorly? I guess a lot depends on what the vets said the problem is though with the white poo I'd suspect liver issues and if so they can be very poorly, though not necessarily painful. Not sure about A/D if this is the case-too high in protein.

Have vets given you a liver supplement? I would have thought this would help.
Obviously only my own thoughts based on my own perceptions.

Have the vets contacted the manufacturers or a specialist for assistance? I don't think they should be giving up on him quite so quickly!


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## catcoonz

thankyou i will ask about liver supplements.
as i used to be a foster home for cp ive asked another fosterer if the kittens are doing ok after panacur, sadly they have also lost a litter of 4 week old kittens, only treatment was panacur and the symptoms are the same.
the vet practice has informed the manufacturer, from what i can understand the manufacturer are saying some kittens are sensitive to an ingredient within panacur, this possibly isnt a faulty batch but the panacur is being returned for testing.
maybe it is the kitten i dont think we will ever know for sure.
i wont give up with this kitten unless the vet says he is in too much pain which wouldnt be fair. will also ask about a different food than AD. thankyou.


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## Ianthi

catcoonz said:


> im taking the kitten back to the vets at 11am for another fluid injection, he hasnt gained any weight but also hasnt lost any more so im not giving up yet.
> dont worry i will not give up easily with this kitten.


I've just seen your post here. Glad to hear he's going back. Actually with the pale gums I'm wondering about anaemia......do the vets have an ultrasound there?


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## colliemerles

catcoonz said:


> thankyou i will ask about liver supplements.
> as i used to be a foster home for cp ive asked another fosterer if the kittens are doing ok after panacur, sadly they have also lost a litter of 4 week old kittens, only treatment was panacur and the symptoms are the same.
> the vet practice has informed the manufacturer, from what i can understand the manufacturer are saying some kittens are sensitive to an ingredient within panacur, this possibly isnt a faulty batch but the panacur is being returned for testing.
> maybe it is the kitten i dont think we will ever know for sure.
> i wont give up with this kitten unless the vet says he is in too much pain which wouldnt be fair. will also ask about a different food than AD. thankyou.


_i have everything crossed here for the little one, i know your doing your best, bless him xxxxxxx_


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## Jiskefet

catcoonz said:


> from what i can understand the manufacturer are saying some kittens are sensitive to an ingredient within panacur, this possibly isnt a faulty batch but the panacur is being returned for testing.


If so many young kittens die of panacur because there is a standard ingredient that is harmful to SO MANY young kittens, they should put a warning in their product description.

You simply CANNOT claim it is safe for young kittens, if such a great number are SO sensitive to it they may even die.

If, indeed, there is nothing wrong with the batch, if it is 'just' that 'some' kittens are sensitive to a regular ingredient of the stuff, and they claim panacur is safe for very young kittens, they can be held liable for the deaths of EVERY kitten thad proved sensitive to it. They should have warned against it.

Every breeder who lost kittens to panacur should claim damages: the market value of a healthy kitten of this breed and the breeder's show standards plus all vet cost and loss of wages, if someone stayed home from work to nurse the kitten or take it to the vet.


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## havoc

> If, indeed, there is nothing wrong with the batch, if it is 'just' that 'some' kittens are sensitive to a regular ingredient of the stuff, and they claim panacur is safe for very young kittens, they can be held liable for the deaths of EVERY kitten thad proved sensitive to it.


This _appears_ to be a recent problem. Fenbendazole has been considered an extremely safe product for many years. I've certainly never had a problem with it. It also _appears_ to be a random selection of batches/products causing the problem. I do understand the heartache and anger in those breeders affected. I'd prefer to have some real answers before the manufacturer is forced onto a defensive back foot.


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## gskinner123

I don't want to detract from the sad, main issue issue here which is very poorly kitten. If the manufacturers themselves say that there is an ingredient in Panacur that is harmful to "some" young kittens then I accept that fact. All I can say to anyone who is currently using Panacur to worm young kittens is that I must have used gallons of the stuff for a few decades without a single kitten (and I often worm from 3 weeks of age) having had the slightest adverse reaction. Every other breeder I know, many of whom have been breeding for as long as I, also uses Panacur, both liquid and paste, with no problems.

I don't doubt it could be a faulty batch; I don't doubt this kitten may have had a severe allergic(?) reaction to an ingredient. But I do think, with respect, that we need to keep a sense of proportion.


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## havoc

> But I do think, with respect, that we need to keep a sense of proportion.


It is very difficult when someone has a current problem not to sound unsympathetic and that isn't my intention either. Like you, I have used it for years without issue. It's unlikely to be a change in formulation because at least one of the batch numbers is earlier than my current bottle which I have used on kittens. We can't go on straight numbers reported because each situation is different eg rescue kittens are more likely to have a large worm burden and a greater likelihood of problems on worming. Cause and effect is rarely as simple as you'd like it to be.


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## gskinner123

Absolutely, it is very difficult. 

I did something incredibly stupid re Panacur paste just last month. Not having used the syringed paste for several years (had switched to buying the liquid) I forgot, when dosing a 7 week old kitten, to 'twist' the ring on the tube which adjusts dosage to the 'top' part of the syringe plunger - instead (and yes I DID say it was incredibly stupid of me) I moved the ring one graduation at the bottom of the plunger... this obviously resulted in a huge amount of paste being delivered... I realised 'half way' through depressing the plunger; some ended up, as it does, on myself/the wall/the table but, still, the kitten received a very large overdose... fortunately to no bad effect.

I do wonder if the op's kitten has a Fenbendazole allergy which was exacerbated by the overdosing.


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## catcoonz

i dont want to start a debate on whether panacur is safe, i was only asking for advise as panacur was the only thing given to this litter of kittens and yes it was my fault for giving the vet the same kitten twice, i hold my hands up to this being my own stupidity and will ensure it neer happens again.
2 months ago there was a problem with a faulty batch of vaccinations where the dogs and puppies had like burn marks and sores to their skin, the vets sent back these vaccines and so far with the new batch no problems have been seen.
its more likely my kitten had a reaction as my other litters have been fine, i guess you get the odd kitten who has a poorly tummy after worming then stops eating and drinking which then makes the problem worse with dehydration issues. when a young kitten starts to get dyhdrated and still has a poorly tummy its vital you get enough fluids into them to compensate for the loss but this im sure i wasnt giving enough fluids and then made the kitten worse.
the weight loss i cant explain neither can the vets, i saw a lovely vet today and the plan is to handrear AD food mixed with KRM every 2 hours 24/7 but every day for this week to administer a fluid injection by the vet to keep ontop of the fluid intake.
i also have used panacur for many years and never had a problem until now, then i read on my thread somebody else has lost a kitten after using panacur and me being me panicked, like you do when you are worried about a young life.
since coming home from the vets the kitten has eaten alittle on its own so i have more hope now.
i hope you will all continue to give me advise as this is how i will learn but for now my vets have returned all the batch of panacur back to be safe.


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## Dally Banjo

So pleased to hear he has eaten :thumbup: everything still tightly crossed here for him though x


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## havoc

Oh I think debate is healthy. Just as with vaccines, anything we do with kittens is a balance of risk and benefit. For example, I have not treated kittens for fleas in over 10 years because there's been no need in my house so I've chosen not to pour chemicals over my kittens. Other breeders treat kittens before they leave in case there are fleas in the new home - two perceptions of risk/benefit both perfectly valid.


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## colliemerles

_so glad he has eaten, i do pray he continues to improve, does this little boy have a name, _


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## catcoonz

i dont think im up for a debate just yet, once i know my kittens going to be ok then yes im happy to do the pros and cons of medication.
the manufacturer of panacur has said you cant overdose with panacur, so im now wondering why the vet even mentioned it to me.
im dreading vaccination time, one vet says i dont have to have the leukemia vaccine, the other said its now standard so will need leukemia.
if vets all said the same thing it would be so much easier rather than being a confused wreck.
same as today, one vet said to syringe every 3 hours the other vet to syringe every 5 hours, one said must do at night, other said no need just in the day. so ive now come home rather more confused then i went.


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## catcoonz

colliemerles said:


> _so glad he has eaten, i do pray he continues to improve, does this little boy have a name, _


he was named georgy porgy as he was the biggest born and always eating, now named tiny tot.
ive had my queen blood tested to ensure its not a problem with her, if its not the panacur then it has to be something else and i need to find out what the real problem is before i even consider continuing with my breeding programme. so all kittens and cats are on hold until i get an answer to identifyl exactly whats gone wrong.
kittens temperature is fine, stool sample will take time to be done as its been sent off, urine is fine, strong heart beat so thats a good sign.


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## loubyfrog

I hope Tiny tot gets renamed Georgy porgy again very soon.

I have everything crossed for this lil man xx


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## we love bsh's

Just caught up with this iv read all comments and i respect each and all of you and your choices.

I have used panacur liquid with no problems untill a friends litter was wormed by it.I weighed and wormed them so correct dosage was given.The next day haf the litter was very ill.

So i have decided for now at least im not using panacur and my bottle is going in the bin i dont want to risk a single kitten that may react to a chemical in the product.

I understand that those who have not a bad reaction may not see it like this.

Anyway cc hope the little guy is is fighting it.If this helps the sick kitten i mentioned i got her back to fighting fit by syring feeding sugar water and boiled chicken it took around 2 weeks.


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## catcoonz

thankyou.
ive just done some research on the internet and found this very interesting.
was written 4th june 2011.
litter of puppies was healthy, 6 weeks old used panacur paste, within half an hour one puppy was fitting, 2/3 hours later 3 puppies went the same way, they was rushed to the vets........result was 3 puppies dead, blood tests came back that panacur wasnt working and the puppies got anemia from worms. the puppies did not have a bloated tummy.


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## colliemerles

_aww tiny tot lol, he may end up as georgry porgy again !!!! you never know . i really feel for you as a breeder,you love your cats/kittens and want to do the best for them, and when something goes wrong you blame yourselves , their little lives are in your hands, but i guess sometimes you just never know what causes the illness.Hope he keeps improving xx_


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## we love bsh's

catcoonz said:


> thankyou.
> ive just done some research on the internet and found this very interesting.
> was written 4th june 2011.
> litter of puppies was healthy, 6 weeks old used panacur paste, within half an hour one puppy was fitting, 2/3 hours later 3 puppies went the same way, they was rushed to the vets........result was 3 puppies dead, blood tests came back that panacur wasnt working and the puppies got anemia from worms. the puppies did not have a bloated tummy.


Somebody should maybe get in touch with the company at least to let them know there may be a problem i would but im not the best a writing formal letters/emails.Id like to see some tests done really.


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## havoc

> litter of puppies was healthy, 6 weeks old used panacur paste, within half an hour one puppy was fitting, 2/3 hours later 3 puppies went the same way, they was rushed to the vets........result was 3 puppies dead, blood tests came back that panacur wasnt working and the puppies got anemia from worms.


As always there are more questions from every extra bit of info. Is it suggested these puppies went from normal to severe anaemia from worms in a couple of hours? If it was the worms that were the problem then where does the Panacur come into the equation? To suggest it 'didn't work' so the worms made the puppies anaemic within that timescale doesn't seem right. The administration of the Panacur has to figure more acutely.


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## Calvine

catcoonz said:


> i dont think im up for a debate just yet, once i know my kittens going to be ok then yes im happy to do the pros and cons of medication.
> the manufacturer of panacur has said you cant overdose with panacur, so im now wondering why the vet even mentioned it to me.
> im dreading vaccination time, one vet says i dont have to have the leukemia vaccine, the other said its now standard so will need leukemia.
> if vets all said the same thing it would be so much easier rather than being a confused wreck.
> same as today, one vet said to syringe every 3 hours the other vet to syringe every 5 hours, one said must do at night, other said no need just in the day. so ive now come home rather more confused then i went.


True, especially when two in the same practice give you conflicting advice...hope he's OK anyway. Panacur paste is supposed to be safe and virtually impossible to overdose to any great extent. XXXX Good luck.


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## Calvine

Maybe a good idea if a vet wrote. it might carry a bit more weight coming from a veterinary n.


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## spid

Well, I'm in two minds what to do in future. I've been worming this litter with panacur paste with no problems, so this litter or this batch is fine. But what to do next time? Hmmm.


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## havoc

It's hard to know what to do. I do think much of the conflicting info comes from vets speculating rather than talking owners into a PM so we get proper answers.


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## Firedog

As too what havoc said on page 7,i had a litter of pups earlier in the year and wormed with panacur.The 1st day the vet did the dosing for me but the second day i spent ages working out the dose and dosed them myself.The 3rd day i took them back to the vets for them to worm the pups as i was having trouble and it turned out when i had wormed them the previous day i had given them 3 times what i should have done,luckily they were fine.


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## cats galore

i have only just noticed this thread. i really hope your little one will be ok catcoonz. this is dreadful to think that the meds could have a problem and be causing all this illness and even death in some cases. get well soon little one


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## catcoonz

well i have panacured 13 kittens and only 2 have had a reaction so i guess it must be the kitten. Either way i wont be giving panacur again.


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## havoc

> i have panacured 13 kittens and only 2 have had a reaction so i guess it must be the kitten


Think the explanation will turn out to be less black and white than that. I can't think of anything I'd use instead so I'll be carrying on with it but I'd be scared stupid if it had happened to me. I've said before, statistics are meaningless when you're the victim.


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## catcoonz

the vet suggested to me to ensure the queens are up todate with wormers every 3 months, then just give the kittens at 9 weeks old a drontol tablet.
im starting to now blame myself instead of the panacur but keep going back to the vet saying some kittens can have a sensitive reaction.
i have a vet who is quite willing to write to the manufacturers of panacur to see what they say and send the batch numbers back for testing, this im sure will say either way of what it is unless the stool sample comes back as something then i will know its the kitten.


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## carly87

Ok, not to hijack the thread, but if queens are kept up to date with wormers, wouldn't it be just fine to wait until nine weeks of age to worm kittens unless they go pot bellied and obviously have a large worm burden? Isn't it just a case of giving them more chemicals when they may not need them? Now, I know that worms can and do pass in mothers' milk, but if she was up to date, wouldn't this drastically minimise the worm burden that the kittens got passed? Why do we worm so frequently?


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## havoc

> I know that worms can and do pass in mothers' milk, but if she was up to date, wouldn't this drastically minimise the worm burden that the kittens got passed?


I reckon kittens from a regularly wormed mum must be at less risk than from a feral litter. Unfortunately the risk can never be assumed to be zero. There isn't a product which kills all parts of the life cycle so a mum can be carrying the immature stage for years without having 'worms'. She can also pass these onto her kittens without having a worm infestation herself. This business of worming the mum is therefore pointless as all the products we have only treat adult worms.


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## Purple~Haze

Glad to hear tiny tot is doing a bit better. Sending (hugs) and get-well vibes


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## tylow

Ianthi said:


> This is heartbreaking. What a dreadful thing to happen. Strangely enough I remembered your post about this recently and meant to ask ( if you don't mind ) what exactly the symptoms were ie liver toxicity?
> 
> I realise the above is due to a faulty batch but I always hold the belief that we have to be very careful about medications ( even in older animals ) since it's virtually impossible to predict those who may be more sensitive than others to the particular drug prescribed. We also have to rely on adverse reactions being reported and sadly this isn't always the case! I'm also amazed to hear sometimes that meds we routinely use in the UK for certain conditions have been 'discontinued' in the US owing to for severe adverse reactions!


As far as I'm aware they stopped eating and drinking. Rapid weight loss and lethargy. It's all a bit raw so didn't go into too much detail but I'm guessing multi organ failure.


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## catcoonz

carly87 said:


> Ok, not to hijack the thread, but if queens are kept up to date with wormers, wouldn't it be just fine to wait until nine weeks of age to worm kittens unless they go pot bellied and obviously have a large worm burden? Isn't it just a case of giving them more chemicals when they may not need them? Now, I know that worms can and do pass in mothers' milk, but if she was up to date, wouldn't this drastically minimise the worm burden that the kittens got passed? Why do we worm so frequently?


im now asking myself the same question.


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## catcoonz

Katina said:


> Glad to hear tiny tot is doing a bit better. Sending (hugs) and get-well vibes


thankyou. i had forgotten how messy syringe feeding was, i get more on myself than into the kitten.
he is now struggling with me when i try to syringe him which is good but the vet said not to get my hopes up too much as kittens at 6 weeks old their kidneys are still developing and could still fail.
i will continue with the 3 hourly feeding 24/7 and the fluid injection every day for the next 7 days then see what happens.
the other kitten is fine, i think it just knocked the stuffing out of him being wormed but other than a bit of a worry his tummy has now cleared up.
the poorly kitten im syringe feeding his toilet is now normal colour instead of white liquid but its just leaking out of him, the vet never mentioned pro-kaolin but would you advise i give him a tiny bit or just leave it, i dont want to do anything that will put him more at risk. any help please.


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## carly87

I have to admit that I don't worm mine from 2 weeks old. I tend to leave them until about 6 or 7, then do the first Panacur cycle, then leave it until 9 weeks when I can pill them. I keep Panacur in in case I need it for anything else, but unless mine go pot bellied, I don't think I'll be changing my procedures any time soon. The immature stage is a pain, isn't it? Really wish we could get on top of that.


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## Cats cats cats

Hi Catcoonz  how is georgie porgie doing today ? big kiss to him xxx


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## catcoonz

Cats cats cats said:


> Hi Catcoonz  how is georgie porgie doing today ? big kiss to him xxx


hes still alive so thats one good thing. had another fluid injection this morning. he hasnt gained any weight but then hasnt lost any either. for the first time he has actually gone to the food bowl and had a few licks which is an improvement but still syringe feeding every 2 hours.


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## Cats cats cats

catcoonz said:


> hes still alive so thats one good thing. had another fluid injection this morning. he hasnt gained any weight but then hasnt lost any either. for the first time he has actually gone to the food bowl and had a few licks which is an improvement but still syringe feeding every 2 hours.


EXCELLENT :thumbup: :thumbup: well done Georgie porgie  must be that big kiss i sent him  so here's another .......... KISS XXX​


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## spid

IS that what it takes? Well that's easy! Lots more coming your way little man.

KISS KISS KISS SNUGGLE


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## dagny0823

Blowing armloads of kisses from across the pond, and a little chin scratch as well. 

Get better soon Tiny Tot Georgie Porgie!


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## pipje

Glad he seems to be on the path of improvement!


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## catcoonz

he gets loads of kisses, thankyou. also enjoys tummy rubs.


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## Jiskefet

Come on, little boy, get well!!!!!


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## Cats cats cats

How is our little man today ? another big kiss is on it's way .........

*K I S S S S S S S *​


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## catcoonz

little man is doing very well considering i didnt think he would be alive today.
hes now lapping ad mixed with krm on a saucer and had a few mouthfuls of the awful applaws chicken kitten food.
im trying all different foods with him but he prefers the ad, but hes slowly getting there.xxx


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## spotty cats

Glad to hear your little one is hanging in there, hope he fully recovers.



carly87 said:


> Ok, not to hijack the thread, but if queens are kept up to date with wormers, wouldn't it be just fine to wait until nine weeks of age to worm kittens?
> 
> Isn't it just a case of giving them more chemicals when they may not need them?
> Why do we worm so frequently?


This is the practice I follow. Queen and Stud are worm free, kittens are not treated until 9-10 weeks. Have never had a cat or kitten with worms, and don't like to use chemicals unnecessarily.


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## Alaskacat

So glad that the little chap is improving, fantastic news, well done for all your efforts Catcoonz.

:thumbup:


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## colliemerles

_he sounds heaps better,fingers crossed he keeps getting stronger, then you can post a picture of the little man for us to coo over :thumbup:,:thumbup:,:thumbup:_


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## Luz

Glad he is showing signs of improvement. Big hugs to both of you.


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## Cats cats cats

Another big kiss for Georgie Porgie  *K I S S*

how is he doing ?


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## catcoonz

hes up my jumper trying to catch the computer mouse. not having much luck with food, he will only lap ad mixed with krm, weight gain today is a mere 5gms. hes going to take a long time to recover fully but his eyes look brighter and the 3rd eye has gone now.


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## Luz

Well any improvement is a bonus eh?
Lots of luck with him,:thumbup:
Why do you keep the computer mouse up your jumper? Isn't that just asking for trouble?


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## Cazzer

Come on Georgie start eating properly baby


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## colliemerles

_he can come snuggle up my jumper if you want, :thumbup:. im sure you must be busy so i will pop in and take over with the kisses and cuddles.,,,:thumbup:,_


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## catcoonz

colliemerles said:


> _he can come snuggle up my jumper if you want, :thumbup:. im sure you must be busy so i will pop in and take over with the kisses and cuddles.,,,:thumbup:,_


i feel like a kangaroo, ive got tiny up my jumper, his teddy heat pad and a bottle. he looks brighter so im more hopeful of a full recovery, although he will stay with me now and be my pet.
when are you coming to collect him.....otherwise you are very welcome to take the 10 kittens climbing my curtains.:thumbup:


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## colliemerles

_10 kittens climbing up your curtains !!!:scared: actually i bet they are great time wasters,i could sit and watch them all day, ( nobody would get any tea or clean clothes, but i would be happy) :thumbup:_


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