# Gundog Training Help



## kim645 (Nov 3, 2008)

Hi Everyone, 
Just wondering if anyone knows of any DVDs or books which would give us some gundog training information and guides? 
We have two springers and oh looking to train them for taking them shooting (a hobby). 
Any hints/tips would be appreciated. Nearly have all the basics mastered  

Kim


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

This is one of the best I've seen

Gun Dogs: Their Learning Chain: Amazon.co.uk: Joe Irving: Books


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Helen Phillips is a guru on this using positive methods only 

And the first positive sporting dog book: Positive Gundogs


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

You're not Angelas friend who I sent a text message to this evening are you by any chance


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## kim645 (Nov 3, 2008)

hawksport said:


> You're not Angelas friend who I sent a text message to this evening are you by any chance


Nope I am affraid I am not...... But if you have any hints/tips then please let me know


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

What are you looking to do? Beating? Peg dog? Picking up?


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## kim645 (Nov 3, 2008)

tripod said:


> Helen Phillips is a guru on this using positive methods only
> 
> And the first positive sporting dog book: Positive Gundogs


Thanks for these, we don't use clicker training because they are already trained to the whiste. Thank you for your reccomendations though.


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## kim645 (Nov 3, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> What are you looking to do? Beating? Peg dog? Picking up?


Looking for general gundog training for better obidence and so that oh can take them shooting with him for flushing and retrieving etc. This is only a hobby so they won't be perfect!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

tripod said:


> Helen Phillips is a guru on this using positive methods only
> 
> And the first positive sporting dog book: Positive Gundogs


What are these???
'ear pinching' or 'heeling sticks'
I've never heard of them being done in this country

"provides owners and handlers with highly effective but kinder and gentler dog training methods that motivate dogs to perform desired behaviors without causing the pain of traditional ear pinch and electric shock"

This is an American book, this isn't the norm in gun dog training here


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What are these???
> 'ear pinching' or 'heeling sticks'
> I've never heard of them being done in this country
> 
> ...


Have to agree - american methods of gundog training  are not used here thankfully, so a book claiming to use kinder and gentler methods will still be harsher than our traditional methods. E-collars and force-fetch are the norm in the US.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Somebody who does good citizens with me passed my number onto somebody who wanted to do some training and it turned out they had two springers that the oh wanted to train as gundogs so I sent them a contact no for a club. Today has been a day full of coincidences so when I saw your post I thought I had better ask.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Helen Philips is from the UK - I started in gundogs and know what sorts of things go in gundog training of all different calibres


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Hi,

David Lisset (of Buccleuch Gundogs) has some very good DVDs for spaniels. 

Keith Erlandson's "The Working Springer Spaniel" and Joe Irving's "Training Spaniels" are also excellent books.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

The Gundog Club has some very good guides

Gundog Training Books


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Weren't there some good videos posted on here a while back - Rona I think you posted them? It was a thread in Dog Chat some time back now...

I remember passing them on to my sister at the time...but can't for the life of me find the thread of the email I sent her!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

katiefranke said:


> Weren't there some good videos posted on here a while back - Rona I think you posted them? It was a thread in Dog Chat some time back now...
> 
> I remember passing them on to my sister at the time...but can't for the life of me find the thread of the email I sent her!


 I don't remember that


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

rona said:


> I don't remember that


hhhmm, it was that thread in dog chat when we were having a discussion with james1 about the fact that pet dogs COULD do gundog training...and it went on for a couple of days!!  maybe it wasnt you who posted the videos but I am sure it was in that thread...i think it was like an online site of a gundog magazine or something? and the guy had some really neat videos...

i will go off and hunt them down...



rona said:


> What are these???
> 'ear pinching' ...


oh and unfortunately, ear pinching is exactly what it sounds like...pinch the ear until the dog does what you want and then let go  So it learns if it does what you ask the pain goes away... unfortunately it happened (and possibly still happens??) far too often in the UK too and not just in gundog training...


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

tripod said:


> Helen Philips is from the UK - I started in gundogs and know what sorts of things go in gundog training of all different calibres


But what are they?
I've been in shooting for 40 years and never come across those terms.
What are they used for?


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> The Gundog Club has some very good guides
> 
> Gundog Training Books


Was just about to mention those! These are excellent for people just starting out.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

rona said:


> But what are they?
> I've been in shooting for 40 years and never come across those terms.
> What are they used for?


Think we posted at the same time - pasted from my post above:



katiefranke said:


> oh and unfortunately, ear pinching is exactly what it sounds like...pinch the ear until the dog does what you want and then let go  So it learns if it does what you ask the pain goes away... unfortunately it happened (and possibly still happens??) far too often in the UK too and not just in gundog training...


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## kim645 (Nov 3, 2008)

katiefranke said:


> hhhmm, it was that thread in dog chat when we were having a discussion with james1 about the fact that pet dogs COULD do gundog training...and it went on for a couple of days!!  maybe it wasnt you who posted the videos but I am sure it was in that thread...i think it was like an online site of a gundog magazine or something? and the guy had some really neat videos...
> 
> i will go off and hunt them down...
> 
> oh and unfortunately, ear pinching is exactly what it sounds like...pinch the ear until the dog does what you want and then let go  So it learns if it does what you ask the pain goes away... unfortunately it happened (and possibly still happens??) far too often in the UK too and not just in gundog training...


Thanks alot for the replies, I didn't really look much at the link about the ear pinching etc as not into clicker training anyway but that is a awful thing to do anyway 'ear pinching' with your dogs.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

Found it

YouTube - Shooting Times gundog training

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/86393-gundog-training-tracking.html


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

kim645 said:


> Thanks alot for the replies, I didn't really look much at the link about the ear pinching etc as not into clicker training anyway but that is a awful thing to do anyway 'ear pinching' with your dogs.


Sorry I think I might have confused you  whoops!! 

The first link Tripd posted was to a UK trainer, who happens to use clicker training (just think of the clicker as a marker, so would just be in place of you saying 'good boy'/'good girl') - so this would not be in replacement of the whistle anyway. but no ear pinching from her...

Basically it is the second link to the US book that Rona mentioned ear pinching from. But the book doesnt contain that method, it just mentions that it uses humane methods and so does not use any of the punishment-based methods (such as ear pinching etc) ...although I am not sure what a heeling stick is - but can imagine horrid things to whack the dog with to make it heel?? 

Hope that makes sense!


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

rona said:


> Found it
> 
> YouTube - Shooting Times gundog training
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/86393-gundog-training-tracking.html


ah thats it 'Shooting Times'...I don't know what all the vids are like, so cannot recommend them, but I remember that the couple I watched at the time they were posted were very good and introduced the basics...and I know my sister found them helpful.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Heeling sticks are used across the Pond - I haven't heard of anyone using those here. Basically they are used as a method of correction when your dog's shoulders move infront of your knee while walking at heel. The stick is used to deliver a 'correction' to the dog's hind quarters when it moves infront. 

(God knows how this works without the dog moving even further forward to get away from the stick. But then again, this method is used by trainers who endorse 'force fetch' and shock collars...)


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

the idea of the Heeling stick is to keep the dog slightly behind the owner for safety. it should never be used as a correction tool or for punishment. it wouldnt be necessary to use on if the dog had a solid heel or close command.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2010)

shamykebab said:


> Heeling sticks are used across the Pond - I haven't heard of anyone using those here. Basically they are used as a method of correction when your dog's shoulders move infront of your knee while walking at heel. The stick is used to deliver a 'correction' to the dog's hind quarters when it moves infront.
> 
> (God knows how this works without the dog moving even further forward to get away from the stick. But then again, this method is used by trainers who endorse 'force fetch' and shock collars...)





lucysnewmum said:


> the idea of the Heeling stick is to keep the dog slightly behind the owner for safety. it should never be used as a correction tool or for punishment. it wouldnt be necessary to use on if the dog had a solid heel or close command.


Well that's made it as clear as mud :lol: :lol:

Thank you both anyway :thumbup:


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

rona said:


> Well that's made it as clear as mud :lol: :lol:
> 
> Thank you both anyway :thumbup:


Doh! Just seen this!!! 

Well just had a bit of a google and how terrible is this?!?!  im afraid every link I look at suggests it is a tool used for correction - basically like a horse whip...
Avery Sporting Dog Division - Training Camp: Transitioning from heeling on lead to heeling off lead

and look at this part:



> "When using a heeling stick to teach your dog to walk at heel, timing of a correction is of utmost importance. *Assuming he has been taught properly to heel with a choke chain and a lead*, teaching your dog to heel off lead using a heeling stick should be fairly easy."


why would you just assume you had to use a choke chain to teach a dog to heel?? 

My search also brought up some posts on a UK gundog forum - where they were also talking about heeling sticks, but they were using them to hold in front of the dog and tap them on the chest with it when they moved too far forward...so again used as a correction, but just at the other end of the dog!

Sorry OP, slightly off topic there, but amazing what some people still use?!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Kim - the books and training manual mentioned are good, but I don't think reading books ever replaces hands on training. While there are still antiquated methods used in gundog training, most have moved on and use positive training methods (not usually clicker though).

Have you thought about joining a gundog club? There are many throughout the UK and they are relatively inexpensive to join (around £10 a year) and most hold training sessions over the summer.

You can find the list of clubs here:

Field Trial Societies contact details and website links - The Kennel Club


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Ear pinching uses negative reinforcement to teach forced retrieve. In many circles this has been replaced with shock training but is no better  I'm glad that so many people in shooting are unfamiliar with some of these yucky things but it goes on quite commonly in some gundog circles still in both Irl and UK.
Just because it talks about clicker training doesn't mean that a clicker must be used - a clicker like a collar is just a tool. Clicker trianing is an entire philosophy centred on teaching the dog to willingly without force or coercion offer correct behaviours. Its more a certain point of view rather than a system attached to a tool or gimmick  just clearing that up!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I know a few gundog trainers their methods always seem harsh.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I know a few gundog trainers their methods always seem harsh.


You must move in some rather unpleasant circles, I've only ever come across one person using shock collar and they were booted out, and one kicking his dog, but then that is the "trainer" that I keep trying to get reported and stopped


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Not all gundog trainers use harsh methods, especially those described on this thread .

Gundogs need to be trained to an incredibly high degree, and their general obediance must be absolutely spot on - there are no grey areas here. This is due to the environment gundogs work in. A disobediant gundog easily could put its life into danger.

A fully trained gundog and his handler work as a _team_, both trusting each other. If the handler can't trust his dog, or the dog has no faith in his handler, then neither have a hope in hell when working with distances of 200 yards (or more) between dog and handler.

I think many people are surprised when they see how firm gundog trainers are with their dogs, but barely a handful are truly harsh. In gundog circles, harsh handling isn't looked very kindly upon.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> You must move in some rather unpleasant circles, I've only ever come across one person using shock collar and they were booted out, and one kicking his dog, but then that is the "trainer" that I keep trying to get reported and stopped


I only know of 2 one was from someone asking if i would like to take mine not that ime wanting to work them mostly just out of interest how mine would go on and enjoy the training at low level, then she mentioned that a few are a bit harsh and i said i knew someone that trained gun dogs and i didnt like how he used to pull them around (hash to me) and she said ye thats how some of them are their so i declined. No ime not involved at all just what ive heard i understand that they have to be strict with these dogs and maybe thats all it is just strict but just seems harsh to me.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

The husband of a friend of mine works cockers and springers and his not only do well in the field and at trials but they live as pets in the house too! This was a man who did not even have an interest in training dogs until my friend fostered an unwanted working cocker for me.  He adores that little dog (she is old and retired now) and won so many cups and prizes after he took up gun dog trials with her that he is now on the committee of at least one local club etc plus runs his own scurry business. He is proof that you do not have to be harsh on your dogs for them to do well.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2010)

It's like any forms of dog ownership, some are good some are not.
Well all animal care really not just dogs


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> It's like any forms of dog ownership, some are good some are not.
> Well all animal care really not just dogs


Quite right


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## kim645 (Nov 3, 2008)

Thanks very much for all the useful tools, will look into them all and find out what will work the best . 
Kim


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If I tried a heeling stick at either end of mine they'd just want to carry it  The harshest thing I do is grumble at mine, or make them sit back on the spot they've moved from! John Weller's book for beginners is good, A Simple Approach to Gundog Training.


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