# Breeding from Merle dogs



## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

Maybe it is just me, but are there masses of Merle puppies around from various breeds at the moment ?

Not only that but Merle to Merle litters being bred ! Are these people mad or just so ignorant that they do not realise what they have done or are doing.:confused1::confused1:

Even the KC will not register Merle to Merle bred puppies in some breeds & all the various breed clubs & responsible breeders warn strongly against it due to the genetic conditions many of the offspring have inherited-Deafness-Blindness-Epilepsy. 

Jeez not only that but not even realising that the parents should be health tested before being bred from. 

My breed is Border Collies & seeing hundreds of puppies being bred from untested non pedigree parents simply for gain saddens me.

I love all colours of Border Collies, Black & White/White & Black being my favourite, but I certainly would never breed from my dogs without them being fully health tested first-having spent over £2,000 on health testing on my own dogs & nowhere near being ready to breed a litter, it makes me very angry to see such irresponsible production of innocent puppies who may have a life of no quality ahead of them


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

I am completely ignorant in terms of brreding and genetics. Could you explain why it is bad to breed merle to merle. I personally love the look of Merle BCs but had no idea it was not a "good" thing.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Digusting isnt it - I think most people are not aware of the issues related to such matings, and just think lets put two pretty colours together.


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## Rebs (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm more of a cat person myself but being around some Petz forums and knowing dog savvy people I have an idea on some of these things hur hur



Amy-manycats said:


> I am completely ignorant in terms of brreding and genetics. Could you explain why it is bad to breed merle to merle. I personally love the look of Merle BCs but had no idea it was not a "good" thing.


Double Merle Dogs - The White Aussies Project, at Lethal Whites .Com
^ could possibly help.

But breeding merle x merle dogs as the OP said is a huge concern and shouldn't be done. It can and does create massive health issues such as the dog being blind, deaf, having epilepsy, etc. Without health testing your dogs if you plan to breed they can also have hip, eye, etc issues. Any decent breeder will health test their dogs before even setting up a breeding to make sure their puppies and dogs are health risk free.

With the border collie being a popular breed and everyone wanting one it's no surprise everyone wants one, especially merle. I personally have a distaste for the pattern and prefer black and whites or liver and whites haha. It is a sad fact for the BC and many other breeds that people will adopt on looks alone and breed for only looks. If only people educated themselves before hand :I


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Its funny you should say that.... I asked a question on another forum about harlequin to harlequin mating (I was pretty sure it was same principle as merle to merle) as I'd seen a litter of Danes (from harlequin to harlequin mating) advertised on the web


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Who is breeding merle x merle, dont they know basic genetics?!

There is a good reason the Chihuahua Club nipped this colour in the bud :thumbup:


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

I have seen a mass of merle dogs at the moment.

Merle to merle is a no no.

I know a "breeder" who obviously has a dog that is a result of a merle to merle mating but she lied to the kennel club and is breeding her bitch frequently.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Merle is the latest fad in chihuahuas. The KC wont accept them so they cant be registered, but i've seen them going for as much as £3k!! Not to mention that its almost certainly not a purebred chihuahua if its merle..

I personally wouldnt risk health problems just to supply an uneducated market of people wanting the latest fashion.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Merle to merle breeding can produce and you have a 1 in4 chance of getting a double merle. Which can bring with it deafness, pigment problems, eye issues even know a case where there was no eye etc.Over here they do register merle to merle breeding normal coloured pups are fine . The best thing for a novice is a tri or bi black to breed to a merle (in a sheltie). You will not get the double merle from a mating like this. I would steer clear of a double merle but the normal coloured pups should be fine.I agree merle to merle should not be allowed it is too dangerous and its the pup that suffers not the idiot breeder.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> Merle to merle breeding can produce and you have a 1 in4 chance of getting a double merle. Which can bring with it deafness, pigment problems, eye issues even know a case where there was no eye etc.Over here they do register merle to merle breeding normal coloured pups are fine . The best thing for a novice is a tri or bi black to breed to a merle (in a sheltie). You will not get the double merle from a mating like this. I would steer clear of a double merle but the normal coloured pups should be fine.I agree merle to merle should not be allowed it is too dangerous and its the pup that suffers not the idiot breeder.


Cant you register a sable merle in the states?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Cant you register a sable merle in the states?


I'm in Canada and yes you can Nyla my bi blue merle is from a sable merle dam and she's registered. They get reg as a Sable they can also be shown but if the merle pattern is apparent they don't do well. With a sable merle quite often you can't tell when they are older if they have brown eyes...A breeder should always sell sable merles with a statement stating they are merles and should only be bred with non merle dogs


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I'm in Canada and yes you can Nyla my bi blue merle is from a sable merle dam and she's registered. They get reg as a Sable they can also be shown but if the merle pattern is apparent they don't do well. With a sable merle quite often you can't tell when they are older if they have brown eyes...A breeder should always sell sable merles with a statement stating they are merles and should only be bred with non merle dogs


Yes.

I dont fully understand why sable merles are not allowed in the UK yet. I know there is a group of people trying to get them accepted.

Tbh there are some sables in the UK that look like sable merles but are not.

imo merle to merle should not happen at all.

I am still puzzled as to how merle's got into Chihuahua's.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I find that confusing too maybe a merle dauxie was thrown in or maybe they were always a throw back but not sold to the public. There are many sable merle shelties that are beautiful but if the merle patern is visible they lose lots of points in the ring same with the blue eye in a sable merle


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

in the old days when merle x merle matings were allowed the breeders were known to cull whites. thankfully such a mating in rc's and shelties is banned.

why anone would pay 2K or more for a merle chi is beyond me. more money than sense springs to mind lol


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I find that confusing too maybe a merle dauxie was thrown in or maybe they were always a throw back but not sold to the public. There are many sable merle shelties that are beautiful but if the merle patern is visible they lose lots of points in the ring same with the blue eye in a sable merle


Last year I met a sable (not sable merle) that had bi-eyes. Her parents were both sables that are well known in this country, from sable lines.

She was stunning, she was shown but never won. By far the best looking sable at the show.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

With chihuahuas its been suggested that a merle sausage dog was thrown in the mix  But merle breeders are adamant that they are 100% pure chihuahua


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> With chihuahuas its been suggested that a merle sausage dog was thrown in the mix  But merle breeders are adamant that they are 100% pure chihuahua


unethical merle breeders huh? lol


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I'd say one of the parents of the pretty sheltie was a hidden merle. No evidence on the outside looks only dna would show the merle gene


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

dexter said:


> unethical merle breeders huh? lol


Heaven forbid 

:lol:

I do love the look of merle chi's, they are beautiful! But health comes before looks for me :thumbup:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

CHW are also shown in Canada and the states. I've been asked to show my collie here but I think she's too leggy to get points but her ears are beautiful, natural ears are hard to get


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I'd say one of the parents of the pretty sheltie was a hidden merle. No evidence on the outside looks only dna would show the merle gene


Could very well be. 

I have only ever seen 1 merle that I wasnt keen on and I think its because it had no tan on it at all......and I love the tan.

Not a ugly dog but I prefare the tan.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Ha stupid question alert ****

What's a merle?


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> Ha stupid question alert ****
> 
> What's a merle?


Its a coat pattern.... looks like a blue base with black splodges, often with tan markings too


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Like Shetland lover's Alaska?


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes.... breeding from merle dogs is fine, but you should never breed merle to merle, because you run the risk of producing "double merle pups" and the lethal white gene, which causes blindness, deafness, along with a whole load of other problems


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Like Shetland lover's Alaska?


Yes Alaska's blue merle.

Alaska's puppy coat is the best picture I have.









However like the other picture you can get blue merle's without tan.

And you can get blue merles with big bits of black like this.









And this a paler colour.
This is alaska's full sister who won bob at crufts 2010.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> And you can get blue merles with big bits of black like this.


ooooh yum yum!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

NicoleW said:


> Like Shetland lover's Alaska?


yes,

i remember alitter of rc sable x merle . resulting puppies were geneticlly merles and NOT sable merles.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

What ever happened to good ol' black white and brown eh?

So if she's a blue merle does that mean it'll be alright to breed her with say a sable dog?

Not being funny, just trying to understand


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> ooooh yum yum!


I know....I love him.

If I ever have a tri bitch I will be using him...... definitely.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> What ever happened to good ol' black white and brown eh?
> 
> So if she's a blue merle does that mean it'll be alright to breed her with say a sable dog?
> 
> Not being funny, just trying to understand


No,

You can but its not accepted in the UK.

You can only breed a blue merle in the UK to a tri (at least in shelties).


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> No,
> 
> You can but its not accepted in the UK.
> 
> You can only breed a blue merle in the UK to a tri (at least in shelties).


not so . see above post


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

dexter said:


> not so . see above post


Dont you then run a 50/50 chance that the litter may not be able to be registered if they turned out to be sable/merles.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

NicoleW said:


> What ever happened to good ol' black white and brown eh?
> 
> So if she's a blue merle does that mean it'll be alright to breed her with say a sable dog?
> 
> Not being funny, just trying to understand


Best to breed her to a tri or a bi black....My sheltie is a bi blue merle no tan I can breed her to a tri or bi black thats if she was breeding quality. Was sold to me knowing I may want to breed her even tried a couple of times thankfully it didn't take once she was 3 ish she got lots of health issues. She's just the bestest pet now


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> Merle is the latest fad in chihuahuas. The KC wont accept them so they cant be registered, but i've seen them going for as much as £3k!! Not to mention that its almost certainly not a purebred chihuahua if its merle..
> 
> I personally wouldnt risk health problems just to supply an uneducated market of people wanting the latest fashion.


there is a "breeder" in Aberdeen still trying to flog them and one who advertises on epupz regularly who has a few occasionally who sells them for £1500+ its insane - she calls herself a caring breeder too 



Jess2308 said:


> With chihuahuas its been suggested that a merle sausage dog was thrown in the mix  But merle breeders are adamant that they are 100% pure chihuahua


merles werent seen in chihuahuas up until about 18yrs ago, they have appeared magically from somewhere if there hasnt been crossbreeding lol! x


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Dont you then run a 50/50 chance that the litter may not be able to be registered if they turned out to be sable/merles.


the breeder of the litter claimed they were genitically blue and not sm's. a dog from the litter has reproduced blues and tris


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

dexter said:


> the breeder of the litter claimed they were genitically blue and no sm's.


Fair enough.:confused1:


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Starlite said:


> there is a "breeder" in Aberdeen still trying to flog them and one who advertises on epupz regularly who has a few occasionally who sells them for £1500+ its insane - she calls herself a caring breeder too
> 
> merles werent seen in chihuahuas up until about 18yrs ago, they have appeared magically from somewhere if there hasnt been crossbreeding lol! x


Apparently they came from american dogs brought over by a well know commercial breeder 

We had someone ask about using Logan, they specifically wanted him because he was american and therefore must carry merle :confused1: We made sure that he was definately from merle free lines before buying him so i politely told them no :lol:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Fair enough.:confused1:


yeah .......... confusing lol


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> Apparently they came from american dogs brought over by a well know commercial breeder
> 
> We had someone ask about using Logan, they specifically wanted him because he was american and therefore must carry merle :confused1: We made sure that he was definately from merle free lines before buying him so i politely told them no :lol:


is that the woman who came here with about 25 chi's?
I remember gossiping about her a few years ago at the Blackpool Champ Show lol 

I'd have told them to sod off too hun, Logan is such a fantastic dog I bet you are turning all sorts of bitches down x


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

dexter said:


> yeah .......... confusing lol


Very.....nothings every straight forward is it. :lol:

If you love me you will get me this dog.:thumbup:










I cant believe shes classed as sable.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

how unusual. looks like a sable with a shaded overlay.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

It is confusing, if the pup from a sable to merle breeding comes out sable merle sometimes you can only tell for the first couple of weeks then the merle sometimes diminishes so its important to know and trust the breeder. If it has no merling chances are its a sable. Same with a blue merle if it comes out blue merle from a sable merle to sable breeding breeding then one parent had a tri gene and one gave gave the merle gene. This dog would genetically be a blue merle with the tan points and would reproduce as such. The merle gene is a diluting gene which dilutes the main coat colour normally black. I DO NOT RECOMMEND SABLE TO MERLE breeding for this reason a novice can not always tell the new born pup is a sable merle not a sable why would anyone want to dilute a sable coat? Once it has the merle gene you should only breed to a tri or bi black IMO


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

dexter said:


> how unusual. looks like a sable with a shaded overlay.


She's from Stormwarden.

She's stunning.....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Very.....nothings every straight forward is it. :lol:
> 
> If you love me you will get me this dog.:thumbup:
> 
> ...


She is beautiful but definetly a Sable merle


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Does breeding a blue merle likes yours Shetlandlover, pose a threat to future pups being born with the same kind of things when breeding two merles?

Or is the risk little to none?


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Does breeding a blue merle likes yours Shetlandlover, pose a threat to future pups being born with the same kind of things when breeding two merles?
> 
> Or is the risk little to none?


If I bred Alaska to the merle boy that I love....there would be a chance of a double merle (deaf and many problems) any double merles would have to be nuetered to stop issues being bred even more into the line.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

NicoleW said:


> Does breeding a blue merle likes yours Shetlandlover, pose a threat to future pups being born with the same kind of things when breeding two merles?
> 
> Or is the risk little to none?


 Nylas breeder does merle to merle breedings and has to keep the double merles as no one wants a small eyed deaf pup with the rest of the probs it may also have. Even a 1 in 4 chance is too much for me


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> She is beautiful but definetly a Sable merle


Both parents are sables.

Stormwarden.









Calender girl.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Is there any chance they could come out deaf blind if she's breeds alaska to a tri colour?


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> Shetland lover probably wouldn't breed to another merle dog just for that reason, she would use a Tri and get tri and blue pups


Yup I have my tri stud lined up!:thumbup:


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Is there any chance they could come out deaf blind if she's breeds alaska to a tri colour?


Nope...not that I know of anyway.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Would it be different if Alaska was a tri and the stud was a merle or blue merle?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

NicoleW said:


> Is there any chance they could come out deaf blind if she's breeds alaska to a tri colour?


No not from the colour anyway it would have to be a totally different genetic thing. A blue merle to Tri breeding regardless of which is male or female will produce blue merle and tri pups if the tri is bi factored there is the chance she would have a bi blue merle thats without tans points and not harmful in anyway


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

It's like being back at school, learn some different every day!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Both parents are sables.
> 
> Stormwarden.
> 
> ...


I'd be interested to see storm wardens breeding he is very pretty, but I still think there's a merle gene in there...lol could be just a very pale sable covering on the pup though. I love colour genetics they are so intriguing


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## mistymilo (Aug 4, 2008)

I've also noticed an increase in merle to merle litters being advertised 

In drives me crazy seeing these adverts, the people breeding these puppies really don't have a clue.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

mistymilo said:


> I've also noticed an increase in merle to merle litters being advertised
> 
> In drives me crazy seeing these adverts, the people breeding these puppies really don't have a clue.


all about the money and the "rare" colour


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I'd be interested to see storm wardens breeding he is very pretty, but I still think there's a merle gene in there...lol could be just a very pale sable covering on the pup though. I love colour genetics they are so intriguing


Stormwarden is Alaska's granddad.

Stormwarden's dad.
Tegwel Wild Ways of Sandwick









And stormwardens mum is the one on the left.


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## mistymilo (Aug 4, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> all about the money and the "rare" colour


If only people did a bit more research they would realise it isn't "rare" they just need to look in the direction.

I've also seen a lot of other colours being advertised as "rare" as well an increase in price  and when i've looked at photos they have got the colour totally wrong


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> This is alaska's full sister who won bob at crufts 2010.


She's beautiful :001_wub: I've just been back on Joyce's website and she really has produced some lovely dogs over the years :thumbup: I didn't realise this years BOB was Alaska's sister!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Stormwarden is Alaska's granddad.
> 
> Stormwarden's dad.
> Tegwel Wild Ways of Sandwick
> ...


I want stormwardens dad please just send him over


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> She's beautiful :001_wub: I've just been back on Joyce's website and she really has produced some lovely dogs over the years :thumbup: I didn't realise this years BOB was Alaska's sister!


Yes full sister. I believe from the mating before Alaska's.

Alaska's litter sibbling is doing great too.









She qualified for crufts at 8 months old.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I just noticed when replying, you're copying them straight from her website ... did you not see the copyright notice at the bottom Emma, or at least ask Joyce first? :scared:


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I want stormwardens dad please just send him over


He was born in 1989 I think he may be a little bit............to far gone to send him over.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> I just noticed when replying, you're copying them straight from her website ... did you not see the copyright notice at the bottom Emma, or at least ask Joyce first? :scared:


Nah I didnt see....oops

Joyce is so nice....in october I met her she was suppost to have Alaska's dad with her but he wasnt to good.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Alaskas sister the blue merle...what a beautiful neck line wow she's gorgeous...almost as pretty as your Alaska


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> Alaskas sister the blue merle...what a beautiful neck line wow she's gorgeous...almost as pretty as your Alaska




Alaska (because of her black) looks right to me....so when I see merles without it takes me a bit to get used to them.

Now this boy looks right to me...... 









He was at the dog show I was doing photography at but I didnt realise.

Look at those eyes.....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

The other sheltie in my avatar is a CHW sable merle the only merle that ever showed on him was the tip of his ear and he had 1 blue eye, he was a beautiful boy and I miss him he died at 5 years old way too soon. He had a major fight with my sick dog Toby Nova never recovered something went wrong he started biting everyone for no reason.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> The other sheltie in my avatar is a CHW sable merle the only merle that ever showed on him was the tip of his ear and he had 1 blue eye, he was a beautiful boy and I miss him he died at 5 years old way too soon. He had a major fight with my sick dog Toby Nova never recovered something went wrong he started biting everyone for no reason.




Sorry for your loss.

That's why my dogs are going to be health tested completely. 
Its so horrible when the breeder messes up and the owners left to pick up behind it. 

Alaska's final (ish) health test is in Feb........I am scared as no dog in her line has ever been CEA DNA tested. Though Stormwardens thought to be CEA DNA clear.

Then we just have her final eye exam...she passed her puppy eye exam at 6 weeks.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

He was from an accidental breeding and the farmer didn't realize the female dog would go over to the male who was tied up.... I only paid 25 dollars for him as they didn't register them didn't know how, and only wanted enough money from the pups to spay the mom. The mom was a tri looking dog but was actually a blue merle dad was sable both were white factored and thats how he became a Colour headed white sable merle what a mouthful. I wasn't breeding him or anything so it didn't matter to me. In comparison I paid 600 dollars for Nyla registered...I'll find a better pic of him. my old computer crashed so I don't have any on this on but here's a bigger one of my avatar
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-photo-galleries/9688-pics-my-dogs-i-hope.html


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

He's a very handsome boy!!!!

You have some very strange coloured dogs. 

But they are stunning!!!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I love the CHW and they are showable here and in the states. The collie Neva her sister ( a full tri) just had 10 puppies all sable and mahgony sable the breeder is keeping 2 at least out of this litter. They are beautiful, she went out of showing dogs for 5 years and just went back into it in 2010. She got too busy with showing her horses. ps in the pic the collie is only 6 months old


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

A pic of my Sheltie dressed in a Santa suit with my o/h in a matching suit....I'm such a dork
http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/23285-pics-santa-nyla.html


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

To get back to the topic if you have a merle dam and see a merle sire you like I would investigate and find their full brother that is coloured eg in shelties find the tri brother same parentage but no issue with the double merle gene can crop up


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Sorry was having tea.

Your girls beautiful.....I dont usually like merles with no tan but shes stunning.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I must admit I love the blue merles but when I saw her even though she was a bi blue there was an instant connection and I actually went to look at a sable lol


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I must admit I love the blue merles but when I saw her even though she was a bi blue there was an instant connection and I actually went to look at a sable lol


I was suppost to be getting Alaska's brother....








Who is show quality and has perfect ears and everything...

I ended up with.....









Alaska had to much weight on her ears as a puppy...
You can see on this picture.









So 1 ear is lower than the other...

Tbh....If I could do it all again I would still pick her.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I like the black on her, Nyla has black too on her sides


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I like the black on her, Nyla has black too on her sides


She's my beautiful girl and I know shes going to produce great pups that are going to of the best health!

It upsets me that breeders dont feel the need to do health tests. 

I think blue merle is my fave colour. (thats why my kennel name is based around blue merle).


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Is she white factored also? Looks like she may be...


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> Is she white factored also? Looks like she may be...


Not sure tbh.....

This is Alaska's mum.
Shellthorn Starlight :: No_437_01.jpg :: Fotopic.Net


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SL Alaskas tri sybling looks lovely . whats the KC name?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

she's pretty, a good indication but not always of white factoring is a white stripe going up the stifle on the rear leg. Here's a pic maybe of Nyla just tried to download it onto my new laptop...lol I am not comp savvy


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

dexter said:


> SL Alaskas tri sybling looks lovely . whats the KC name?


Shellthorn Star Force at Punknowle.
She was the smallest in the litter.....she came along to be chipped and vaccinated on the same day we went with Alaksa and took Alaska home.


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

It is just ignorance imo. We haven't, as far as I am aware anyone breeding 
merles in my area but if I found out they were, i would be doing a drop in visit and having serious words with them about the implications - bloody idiots!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

JohnMorris said:


> It is just ignorance imo. We haven't, as far as I am aware anyone breeding
> merles in my area but if I found out they were, i would be doing a drop in visit and having serious words with them about the implications - bloody idiots!


The breeder I got Nyla from has been breeding for years, so I don't understand it myself...Far too dangerous its not us that pays the price its the puppies


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

These are both good sites, expalining about coat colour genetics

Dog Coat Colour Genetics
Dog Coat Color Genetics


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

This is fun for Sheltie peeps hope my link works for you
Sparkshire's Sheltie Coat Color Calculator


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Anyone got pictures to show me what a tri (bi factored) is.

And a bi factored blue merle?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Anyone got pictures to show me what a tri (bi factored) is.
> 
> And a bi factored blue merle?


They look like reg blue merles and tris but carry the bi gene. So are capable of passing that gene to pups and may result in a bi blue like Nyla or a bi black. Sometimes the only way to know is through a breeding


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Its a fun calculator for colour though isn't it


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Yes it is. 

I shall be reading up on all that tomorrow. 
Thanks for the link.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I've played with it so much over the years esp before I decided not to breed Nyla. Nova was never an option to me even to health test as he wasn't reg and I never even considered him more than a pet


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Starlite said:


> merles werent seen in chihuahuas up until about 18yrs ago, they have appeared magically from somewhere if there hasnt been crossbreeding lol! x


Nor Pomeranians. Yes...merle pomeranians... I hate to see these dogs...really do, as the Phantom Merle is common, so you could be breeding merle to merle and not actually know it!! 

I think the merle chis were mixed into the pom breed to make merle poms


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

casandra said:


> Nor Pomeranians. Yes...merle pomeranians... I hate to see these dogs...really do, as the Phantom Merle is common, so you could be breeding merle to merle and not actually know it!!
> 
> I think the merle chis were mixed into the pom breed to make merle poms


That sounds very possible to me


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> That sounds very possible to me


What's even better are whackadoodles like this:

http://www.merlepoms.org/Judge%20Letters/Judge%20Robert%20Hall.pdf



The problem I see is that the more common Merles become, the more they will be bred willy nilly...without research or health testing etc...Lots of people only see, they don't think...especially when it comes to "rare" or "adorable"....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

It's like the tea cup poms and chis a real shame


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Really interesting thread, guys 

I've definitely seen an increase in merles and double merles recently, especially in Great Danes, where neither colour can be shown! I think part of the problem is that "novice" breeders (BYBs) might have heard about merle x merle being a problem but don't do their research and breed two Harls together.

Hope these little Doxies found special homes, happened to find thiis video by chance last night: YouTube - Pongo & Perdita - Blind/Deaf Dachshunds RESCUED!!!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Thorne said:


> Really interesting thread, guys
> 
> I've definitely seen an increase in merles and double merles recently, especially in Great Danes, where neither colour can be shown! I think part of the problem is that "novice" breeders (BYBs) might have heard about merle x merle being a problem but don't do their research and breed two Harls together.
> 
> Hope these little Doxies found special homes, happened to find thiis video by chance last night: YouTube - Pongo & Perdita - Blind/Deaf Dachshunds RESCUED!!!


Poor babies, glad they were rescued...


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

Amy-manycats said:


> I am completely ignorant in terms of brreding and genetics. Could you explain why it is bad to breed merle to merle. I personally love the look of Merle BCs but had no idea it was not a "good" thing.


40% chance of puppies being born-blind-deaf-epileptic or all 3 condition. can be born with no eyes(not noticable until the eyes start opening) !

Defo not to be done ever


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

Starlite said:


> Who is breeding merle x merle, dont they know basic genetics?!
> 
> There is a good reason the Chihuahua Club nipped this colour in the bud :thumbup:


There is/was a litter on Pets4Homes & other online puppy sites for a merle to merle litter-I contacted the breeder & she confirmed that both parents & Grand parents were merles !!!

When I informed her the"rare"white puppies in her litter could be blind etc she changed the advert on E pupz to the mother being a Tri-but left a photo on Pets4Homes of both parents who are merles !

At one time the merles & whites were offered for sale for £600 !! They are now down to £200

Also she has the dog at stud on here-no health tests mentioned !!

She wrote to me that the dogs were all healthy as her vet had seen them !!!

Must have X ray eyes & be a pyschic too her vet !


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

I'd be interested to know where you got the figure of 40%? I thought it was a 25% chance?


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

shetlandlover said:


> No,
> 
> You can but its not accepted in the UK.
> 
> You can only breed a blue merle in the UK to a tri (at least in shelties).


Or a Black & White ??? & yes Shelties do come in Black & White


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

Ridgielover said:


> I'd be interested to know where you got the figure of 40%? I thought it was a 25% chance?


From a breeder of merles who has been breeding BCs for years & knows their stuff-the mathematical chance is 25% but in reality it is 40%


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

JoedeeUK said:


> Or a Black & White ??? & yes Shelties do come in Black & White


Yes they do like the blue merle without the tan black and white are called bi-blacks here and merles without tan bi blue....


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2011)

JoedeeUK said:


> Or a Black & White ??? & yes Shelties do come in Black & White


Yes they do. My friend has a black and white bitch but has never bred her.

There are not many black and white boys around. Went to our club show in October and didnt see any.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I really know nothing about genetics, but wouldn't it be sensible to breed merle out completely (if that is possible) and get rid of this troublesome gene?

I have been involved in agility for over 10 years and the sudden appearance of this fad for blue merles in BCs is worrying. Surely the most important thing in breedign is health and not coat colour (unless the colour is there to help a working dog do his job ie. sarpaninecs would be useless at blending in with their flock if they were black!)

I know this is only anecdotal, but 3 pups in our club, who were purchased BECAUSE they were merle, all have serious health problems (one was PTS as they had epilepsy).

I do understand that we can all have favorite coulors (I prefer liver and white springers to black and white) but surely colour is really not a reason to choose a dog? All the peopel I know who wanted a blue merle BC ONLY looked at litters containing these colours. Colour seemed to be the starting point in choosing a dog


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Merles have been in the sheltie and collie for a long time, I find them quite beautiful and although I don't know about the BC it doesn't cause health issues within shelties and collies a merle should only be bred to a non merled dog preferably a bi black or a tri


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> Merles have been in the sheltie and collie for a long time, I find them quite beautiful and although I don't know about the BC it doesn't cause health issues within shelties and collies a merle should only be bred to a non merled dog preferably a bi black or a tri


Yup.

I have not seen any health problems linked to merle's in shelties (appart from double merle's).


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

JoedeeUK said:


> From a breeder of merles who has been breeding BCs for years & knows their stuff-the mathematical chance is 25% but in reality it is 40%


The breeder you know may well have personally experienced 40% but that does not alter the fact that the statistical chance is 25%.

As far as I know, a single copy of the merle gene doesn't cause any problems so there is no need to "breed it out". Apart from my Ridgies, I also have 2 Aussies, one is a red tri and the other is a stunning red merle :thumbup:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Ridgielover said:


> The breeder you know may well have personally experienced 40% but that does not alter the fact that the statistical chance is 25%.
> 
> As far as I know, a single copy of the merle gene doesn't cause any problems so there is no need to "breed it out". Apart from my Ridgies, I also have 2 Aussies, one is a red tri and the other is a stunning red merle :thumbup:


ohhh would love a piccie I like Aussies


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2011)

Ridgielover said:


> The breeder you know may well have personally experienced 40% but that does not alter the fact that the statistical chance is 25%.
> 
> As far as I know, a single copy of the merle gene doesn't cause any problems so there is no need to "breed it out". Apart from my Ridgies, I also have 2 Aussies, one is a red tri and the other is a stunning red merle :thumbup:


Exactly.

I have a blue merle, and my mentors have between them at least 25 blue's and have never had any problems.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I musdt admit, I do have a thing for merle dogs of any breed... but breeding merle to merle is inexcusable. There is absolutely no need for it and the risks - even at 1 in 4 are far too high. I am glad the KC has refused to register merle-merle litters in various breeds.


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## nutmeg (Sep 13, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> Merle is the latest fad in chihuahuas. The KC wont accept them so they cant be registered, but i've seen them going for as much as £3k!! Not to mention that its almost certainly not a purebred chihuahua if its merle..
> 
> I personally wouldnt risk health problems just to supply an uneducated market of people wanting the latest fashion.


I have seen this too, the prices they charge really jump up for a merle chi.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

I agree merles should not be bred from period. Even if you put endorsements or limitations on registration, you can never 100% know for sure that the people you are selling to wont breed that dog on the sly to another merle. Its just WAY too risky. If I were in a breed where the BEST match for my (non-merle, as I will never own merle to breed from, period) dog happened to be a merle, I would pediatric spay/neuter all merle puppies born from that litter. It would be a hugely risky litter, because all of the puppies could be merle or the show quality pups could be merle...etc

You can be the most reputable breeder ever in the world, but if you were ethical, you wouldn't be producing merle and letting them go to their new homes intact. I've seen the "lethal white" too many times and people call it "beautiful". It is disgusting. Breeders can't really keep control of dogs they sell, so every merle "pet" being sold could be bred from to another merle by their ignorant owners...It just isn't fair to the potential puppies produced.


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

Old Shep said:


> I really know nothing about genetics, but wouldn't it be sensible to breed merle out completely (if that is possible) and get rid of this troublesome gene?........................................................
> 
> I do understand that we can all have favorite coulors (I prefer liver and white springers to black and white) but surely colour is really not a reason to choose a dog? All the peopel I know who wanted a blue merle BC ONLY looked at litters containing these colours. Colour seemed to be the starting point in choosing a dog


The Merle pattern is no more likely to be linked with health problems than any other colour except when doubled up on

Epilepsy in WSD & BCs is not colour linked(except in double merles), it's like any other genetic condition CEA-TNS-CL & carriers should only be bred to clears.

How many pet/BYB/Puppy farm breeders even bother with hip/elbow scoring let alone DNA testing ?? Answer none-why because they don't bother to find out or research the breed before starting to breed for money from their pets.

I've lost count of how many non tested litters advertized on the net & elsewhere-a lot of Activity bred litters are from untested parents.

I know of a very famous dog used at stud who has repeatedly produced epileptic puppies(like his father did)& also a known CEA carrier used at stud before the DNA test was available also a famous dog.

No one should be able to breed dogs without first having the knowledge of their breed & health status

Colour means nothing to me, I have black & white & white & black BCs at the moment simply because that was the colors of the puppies available


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

casandra said:


> I agree merles should not be bred from period. Even if you put endorsements or limitations on registration, you can never 100% know for sure that the people you are selling to wont breed that dog on the sly to another merle. Its just WAY too risky. If I were in a breed where the BEST match for my (non-merle, as I will never own merle to breed from, period) dog happened to be a merle,* I would pediatric spay/neuter all merle puppies born from that litter.* It would be a hugely risky litter, because all of the puppies could be merle or the show quality pups could be merle...etc
> 
> You can be the most reputable breeder ever in the world, but if you were ethical, you wouldn't be producing merle and letting them go to their new homes intact. I've seen the "lethal white" too many times and people call it "beautiful". It is disgusting. Breeders can't really keep control of dogs they sell, so every merle "pet" being sold could be bred from to another merle by their ignorant owners...It just isn't fair to the potential puppies produced.


Pre puberty neutering is a inadvisable invasive procedure that will affect the dogs behaviour & physical development. The growth plates closure in the long bones is directly linked to puberty & take away the progesterone or testosterone too early & the closure is delayed meaning the dog growing taller than it should. Also early neutering allows the testosterone in bitches & progesterone(in dogs) makes the animal attractive same sex-ie male dogs being attracted to early castrated neuters(& yes I do have personal knowledge of this situtaion-not my neuters BTW as my dogs are never neutered prepuberty)

Nothing to do with the merles being bred from registered parents-99% are unregistered parents after all the KC would refuse the whole litter if two registered merles are bred togther thus reducing the value of said litter


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2011)

:confused1:

Every single merle I have met has been fit and healthy. 

So from what I have read my bitch should be spayed because she is unhealthy?
But the sable and white from the same breeder with a hip score of 26 is okay to still be bred from?

I am deeply sorry here but I disagree.

My bitch for 1 is healthy, she has low hip's, clear eyes and in 2 weeks we will know if she is clear of DNA CEA.

But if your.....way of thinking is correct then wooohoo lets breed from a sable that has CEA -Affected, has high hips and is a DNA CEA -carrier.

I dont know how the merle gene stands in borders (I ma not keen on merle's in borders) however in shelties and roughs the merle gene isnt a problem gene as long as you know what you are doing. 
You cant seriously beleive that because the dogs a certain colour its unhealthy and needs to be neutered at what? 8 weeks old.

My mentor breeds old merles and tri's and she has NEVER ever had problem. All the dogs are healthy but her sable line died out because they were infertile.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

I am not against the colour itself, but the people who are ignorant about it and use it as yet another money making tool.

I am also against introducing it into breeds where it has no business being, again a money maker.

By "no business being", I mean poms, chi's among others where the colour has suddenly appeared after almost 80-100yrs of breed classification and recognition.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2011)

Starlite said:


> I am not against the colour itself, but the people who are ignorant about it and use it as yet another money making tool.
> 
> I am also against introducing it into breeds where it has no business being, again a money maker.
> 
> By "no business being", I mean poms, chi's among others where the colour has suddenly appeared after almost 80-100yrs of breed classification and recognition.


Exactly but saying "nueter/spay all blue merles" is daft....in shelties the merle colour doesnt mean the dog is unhealthy so whats the issue?


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly but saying "nueter/spay all blue merles" is daft....in shelties the merle colour doesnt mean the dog is unhealthy so whats the issue?


like i said hun, i dont see the issue if you are breeding responsibly a recognised colour of your breed


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Don't shoot me, ok? :lol:

I ADORE double merles, I want one. I think they are really stunning looking. I have trained with deaf dogs so I would have no porblem owning a deaf and/or blind dog :thumbup:

The only difference is I would NEVER EVER go to a breeder, I would only go to a rescue to get one. I'd never line the pocket of a bad breeder


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I really know nothing about genetics, but wouldn't it be sensible to breed merle out completely (if that is possible) and get rid of this troublesome gene?
> 
> I have been involved in agility for over 10 years and the sudden appearance of this fad for blue merles in BCs is worrying. Surely the most important thing in breedign is health and not coat colour (unless the colour is there to help a working dog do his job ie. sarpaninecs would be useless at blending in with their flock if they were black!)
> 
> ...


In agility lines, some of the most popular (Canen, Bryning, Holmelyne) have a heavy bias towards merles. They look nice, and I was initially attracted to them and thought, if I got a border collie it would be nice to have a blue merle (don't like the reds). Later I decided I preferred sable, and liked Welsh Sheepdogs more than BC's. Got a sable WS, but the main motivation for my choice was her parents' temperaments.

AS others have said, a single merle dog has no more health problems than a dog with no merle gene. And the 3 BCs I know with epilepsy are all black and white.


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## cat001 (Apr 12, 2008)

This is like stepping into the twilight zone! Just yesterday at uni we were discussing incompletely dominant genes and more specificly the breeding of two merle's and its effect on the offspring. Then I come here and see that very same topic being discussed here right after doing a bit more reading on it!

the 1/4 that recieve two copies of the merle gene may also die in utero and simply be absorbed by the mother or be still born, or born with such severe deformities that it requires euthenisation. I agree it's simply not ethical to breed 2 merle's together and produce animals that will suffer as a result.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Old Shep said:


> Colour seemed to be the starting point in choosing a dog


I think colour has always been a consideration in breeding dogs and in the minds of potential owners when they choose a dog.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2011)

I should clear up that:

*The sable from the same breeder is not related to Alaska at all.*

Its more of a example......as even the none merle colours are not always healthy.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

casandra said:


> I agree merles should not be bred from period. Even if you put endorsements or limitations on registration, you can never 100% know for sure that the people you are selling to wont breed that dog on the sly to another merle. Its just WAY too risky. If I were in a breed where the BEST match for my (non-merle, as I will never own merle to breed from, period) dog happened to be a merle, I would pediatric spay/neuter all merle puppies born from that litter. It would be a hugely risky litter, because all of the puppies could be merle or the show quality pups could be merle...etc
> 
> You can be the most reputable breeder ever in the world, but if you were ethical, you wouldn't be producing merle and letting them go to their new homes intact. I've seen the "lethal white" too many times and people call it "beautiful". It is disgusting. Breeders can't really keep control of dogs they sell, so every merle "pet" being sold could be bred from to another merle by their ignorant owners...It just isn't fair to the potential puppies produced.


I'm sorry, Cassandra, but I really do think that this is over the top! There will always be idiotic people in the world but that doesn't mean that our every action should be driven by this fact. Of course it should be taken into account and responsible breeders will always vet potential homes as thoroughly as they can to avoid homing their precious pups with such people.

I would just like to say that in no way do I condone breeding merles together - I can see no reason to justify taking such a risk with puppies' lives. Neither do I condone neutering puppies


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly but saying "nueter/spay all blue merles" is daft....*in shelties the merle colour doesnt mean the dog is unhealthy so whats the issue?*


The problem is that no matter how ethical the breeder or how good they are at vetting new owners, the chance of their merle pups being bred by ignorant people is always there. I think therefore that is the issue.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2011)

lauren001 said:


> The problem is that no matter how ethical the breeder or how good they are at vetting new owners, the chance of their merle pups being bred by ignorant people is always there. I think therefore that is the issue.


But in that case "the runt" of litters should not be sold....after all people breed them to try and get the "tea cup" versions of the breed.

Or pugs shouldnt be sold to anyone with cavaliers and vice versa because people cross them together and they are not healthy breeds at all.

You are always going to get idiots but to try and get rid of blue merle's completely is daft.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

shetlandlover said:
 

> to try and get rid of blue merle's completely is daft.


The coloration is too well liked for it to be got rid of completely so I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Ridgielover said:


> I'm sorry, Cassandra, but I really do think that this is over the top! There will always be idiotic people in the world but that doesn't mean that our every action should be driven by this fact. Of course it should be taken into account and responsible breeders will always vet potential homes as thoroughly as they can to avoid homing their precious pups with such people.
> 
> I would just like to say that in no way do I condone breeding merles together - I can see no reason to justify taking such a risk with puppies' lives. Neither do I condone neutering puppies


I am more angry about merles popping up in breeds that haven't previously been known to have the defect. I'm sorry, but what I've seen is they have and will continue to cause more harm than good.

Having dealt with lethal whites (horses and dogs) and seen the heartache they bring, I just can't condone it ethically. You can vet someone as much as you want, but mistakes happen, people will go to extreme lengths to get their hands on puppies of a certain colour or type. I couldn't live with even the thought of that potentially happening. I come from somewhere where paediatric spay/neuter is common, particularly amongst rescues and know several Dobermann breeders who spay/neuter their dogs at 7/8 weeks of age when the ears are cropped. They have been doing this for decades and though they're not large-scale breeders, they've never had problems that were due to the early spay/neuter other than a taller than average adult dog. These dogs have every health test possible and also have longevity awards and certificates out the wazoo.

*I* just couldn't ever live with that *possibility*. That I could sell a puppy to someone I had researched and worked hard to put trust and faith into, only to see they had deceived me by breeding it in a dangerous fashion.


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

casandra said:


> Having dealt with lethal whites (horses and dogs) and seen the heartache they bring, I just can't condone it ethically.
> .


There is no Lethal White Gene in dogs


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

SpringerHusky said:


> Don't shoot me, ok? :lol:
> 
> I ADORE double merles, I want one. I think they are really stunning looking. I have trained with deaf dogs so I would have no porblem owning a deaf and/or blind dog :thumbup:
> 
> The only difference is I would NEVER EVER go to a breeder, I would only go to a rescue to get one. I'd never line the pocket of a bad breeder


These dogs can also be epileptic ! Have you had a dog with epilepsy as well ?


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

shetlandlover said:


> :confused1:
> 
> I dont know how the merle gene stands in borders (I ma not keen on merle's in borders) however in shelties and roughs the merle gene isnt a problem gene as long as you know what you are doing.


The double merle health issues are the same for all breeds of dogs that have the merle pattern in their genetic make up


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

JoedeeUK said:


> The double merle health issues are the same for all breeds of dogs that have the merle pattern in their genetic make up


So then I see no issue....

You are always going to get idiots who mis-use dogs (look at runts as teacup pups, breed together dogs to get money) but it doesnt mean that a colour should be taken away by neutering all merle's....

Some of the best looking shelties and best health can be found in merle's.

I do think that the kennel club should be more strict as far as if a breeder is cross breeding they should be banned from having a kennel name/suspended.

I am pretty sure I read that the GCCF has a similar policy. (Though I may be wrong).


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

Personally, I like the look of the merles, but we are, as Licencing Officers seeing a great deal more crosses with Merles which is so risky due to the genetics issues.

A breeder in my area breeds Labradoodles, those bloody expensive Australian ones and we know they already abuse their licence by keeping lots of dogs away from the home and has recently been trying to breed a "new breed" which are Merles crossed with these Labradoodles. Most, if not all of their first litter died and now I hear through the grapevine that they have ahd another litter recently and most if not all this litter has died too. The reason this perosn feels the pups died is that "someone has brought in some infection" - what the hell are they doing letting all and sundry walk in the house near these tiny pups? Perhpas it is a genuine infection brought in by one of the other many dogs they have but it cannot be ruled out that these pups died due to a genetic problem. We are investigating the situation at the moment but someone who advertises themselves as very reputable breeders and highly recommended and show such a blaze attitude towards breeding is not acceptable in our area, if anywhere. Just want to add that I have already made it clear about my views of these crossbreeds and Labradoodles ect and am not targeting this breeder becasue they breed types of dogs I don't like particularly, but because we have received several complaints and calls of concern which alerted us to this breeder. When will people learn?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

JohnMorris said:


> Personally, I like the look of the merles, but we are, as Licencing Officers seeing a great deal more crosses with Merles which is so risky due to the genetics issues.
> 
> A breeder in my area breeds Labradoodles, those bloody expensive Australian ones and we know they already abuse their licence by keeping lots of dogs away from the home and has recently been trying to breed a "new breed" which are Merles crossed with these Labradoodles. Most, if not all of their first litter died and now I hear through the grapevine that they have ahd another litter recently and most if not all this litter has died too. The reason this perosn feels the pups died is that "someone has brought in some infection" - what the hell are they doing letting all and sundry walk in the house near these tiny pups? Perhpas it is a genuine infection brought in by one of the other many dogs they have but it cannot be ruled out that these pups died due to a genetic problem. We are investigating the situation at the moment but someone who advertises themselves as very reputable breeders and highly recommended and show such a blaze attitude towards breeding is not acceptable in our area, if anywhere.When will people learn?


Are you in america by any chance?

I know over there they are breeding more and more different colours which is catching on over here (blue merle chi was in the USA first then over here) I also know from a close friend of mine that cross breeding shelties and collies with other breeds to get merle is becoming common over there by byb.

I know any merle's I have (in litters) will be staying with me, 
I also know how rare it is to get your hands on a blue merle bitch as a great deal of breeders (within my breed at least) keep them.


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Are you in america by any chance?
> 
> I know over there they are breeding more and more different colours which is catching on over here (blue merle chi was in the USA first then over here) I also know from a close friend of mine that cross breeding shelties and collies with other breeds to get merle is becoming common over there by byb.
> 
> ...


No I live in the South East of England, well more central south but BBC call us South East:


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

JohnMorris said:


> No I live in the South East of England, well more central south but BBC call us South East:


Ahhh.

I have seen only a few merle's in breeds that are not suppose to have them.
I know that common practise is to buy a blue merle collie and breed that into breeds so they keep a similar coat type.

I once saw a advert on the internet for a blue merle collie £1000 and not KC registered because its "rare".


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> So then I see no issue....
> 
> ...........
> 
> Some of the best looking shelties and best health can be found in merle's.


Shetlandlover you have been in Shelties for about a nanosecond, so saying you see no issues in the merles I am sorry is of no consequence.
Once you are in a breed and start breeding, you will find things in your own pups and dogs that other breeders will deny or "have never seen before". That is par for the course in breeding any animal, genetic problems are so often swept under so many carpets.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

lauren001 said:


> Shetlandlover you have been in Shelties for about a nanosecond, so saying you see no issues in the merles I am sorry is of no consequence.
> Once you are in a breed and start breeding, you will find things in your own pups and dogs that other breeders will deny or "have never seen before". That is par for the course in breeding any animal, genetic problems are so often swept under so many carpets.


I have been re-searching the breed for years before buying one and 2 of my mentors are the top sheltie showers and breeders in the UK.

So if blue merle's are in such poor health you tell me why my mentors who have had blue merles for some 50 years (each) have not had a sick one to date?

Or why the shetland sheepdog club have not issued a "all blue merles are sick dont breed them" policy...?

When bred by the right people and to tri's or b/w they are no more a risk of health problems than a tri or sable.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> So if blue merle's are in such poor health you tell me why *my mentors who have had blue merles for some 50 years (each) have not had a sick one to date?*


Oh dear, that would definitely rings some alarm bells for me.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

lauren001 said:


> Oh dear, that would definitely rings some alarm bells for me.


No,
Because they breed correctly to tri's and B/W.

All dog breeds have health problems to some extent. So yes 1 of my mentors had a blue merle that had Hip Dysplasia but that wasnt because it was a blue merle.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Oh dear, that would definitely rings some alarm bells for me.


SL i've had roughs for over 30 years and trust me there are some who do hide health issues . I bought a blue pup from a blue to blue mating some years ago. , she had the most appalling disability in her back legs.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

casandra said:


> I am more angry about merles popping up in breeds that haven't previously been known to have the defect. I'm sorry, but what I've seen is they have and will continue to cause more harm than good.
> 
> Having dealt with lethal whites (horses and dogs) and seen the heartache they bring, I just can't condone it ethically. You can vet someone as much as you want, but mistakes happen, people will go to extreme lengths to get their hands on puppies of a certain colour or type. I couldn't live with even the thought of that potentially happening. I come from somewhere where paediatric spay/neuter is common, particularly amongst rescues and know several Dobermann breeders who spay/neuter their dogs at 7/8 weeks of age when the ears are cropped. They have been doing this for decades and though they're not large-scale breeders, they've never had problems that were due to the early spay/neuter other than a taller than average adult dog. These dogs have every health test possible and also have longevity awards and certificates out the wazoo.
> 
> *I* just couldn't ever live with that *possibility*. That I could sell a puppy to someone I had researched and worked hard to put trust and faith into, only to see they had deceived me by breeding it in a dangerous fashion.


Cassandra, why refer to merle as a "defect". 
But I agree with your concern over merles just "appearing" in breeds where it isn't a standard coat pattern. Merle just doesn't appear, it isn't a recessive that can remain hidden for generations, though I am aware that it can sometimes be difficult to spot if there is only a very small merle patch on a dog.

You may well live in a country where spaying young puppies is a common practice - but you also live in a country which sees no problems with cropping puppies' ears, a practice which is illegal here  I really hope that early spaying does not catch on in the UK.

Cassandra - you take a risk when you rehome any puppy that you have bred. You could sell an entire bitch that is not merle, she could be used to produce merles. Are you never going to risk breeding or homing puppies because that is a vague possibility? As I've already said, there is no doubt that there are many idiotic people in this world but are you going to let this stop you from doing anything at all?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I do not believe that Blue Merles in general have more issues health wise than any of the other colours. I do not agree to bringing it into breeds where it is not a recognized colour eg Chihuahua, Poms etc. But with the Sheltie and Collie it is the breeders responsibility to explain about the colour and breeding I would do that even on a spay neuter contract as there is No way to ensure someone isn't going to breed from one of your pups even on limited reg. It just means that when you sell it the pups can't be reg. It comes down to trying to do your best when screening new owners. I happen to like the Blue Merle and Bi Blues. Anyone that does a Merle to Merle breeding is being careless regardless of how well the conformation of the parents are is should not be allowed and here the CKC does reg a litter from a Merle to Merle breeding Nyla is a product of one. Thankfully she only inherited 1 merle gene

Although I live in Canada where ear cropping is legal it is very hard to find a Vet who will do it so that is a step in the right direction.....


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I do wonder - if it would be best to ban merle dogs, should we also ban the breeding of various others where colour affects health?

Dalmatians for example - I believe both the HUA problem and deafness are linked to the spotting of the coat. Should we ban them?

Or the blue / fawn dobermanns. The KC accepts these colours despite teh very high incidence of colour dilute alopaecia and skin complaints. A friend of mine is currently fostering a blue dobe (bought for a high price for benig "rare") who now has only a small patch / strip of rouch, course hair on her shoulders, gets the pimples, feels the cold so badly she virtualy lives by the radiator...

Actually, I would far prefer the KC to refuse the dilute dobies (which ferquently have problems) than merle dogs (which generally only have issues if double merles).

You could take the whole debate one step further - why stop at coat / colour? There are plenty of breesd that suffer from health problems directly linked to phenotype (extreme flat faces, over-large heads, etc). Surely these should be the priority?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

dexter said:


> SL i've had roughs for over 30 years and trust me there are some who do hide health issues . I bought a blue pup from a blue to blue mating some years ago. , she had the most appalling disability in her back legs.


Dex read the comment I put above.



shetlandlover said:


> No,
> Because they breed correctly to tri's and B/W.
> 
> All dog breeds have health problems to some extent. So yes 1 of my mentors had a blue merle that had Hip Dysplasia but that wasnt because it was a blue merle.


Of course some breeders hide health problems but I have never met a dog that has a health problem due to being blue merle....or any other colour for that matter. (other than the double merle problems)


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

JoedeeUK said:


> These dogs can also be epileptic ! Have you had a dog with epilepsy as well ?


Almost forgot that as it's not as common a the deaf and blindness.

I would be happy to deal with it, i've never owned a dog that had any problems but have worked with these dogs instead.

It would still not put me off adopting one, if the dog was happy then I would consider and learn how to live with one 

Most people would be put off by one in a rescue, i'd rather have one than something I knew would be adopted quickly :thumbup:


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Ridgielover said:


> You may well live in a country where spaying young puppies is a common practice - but you also live in a country which sees no problems with cropping puppies' ears, a practice which is illegal here  I really hope that early spaying does not catch on in the UK.


I honestly cant see it catching on here hun, not even cash hungry vets can endorse it as they get more spaying/neutering a heavier animal


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

but some health problems aren't visible to the eye.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

dexter said:


> but some health problems aren't visible to the eye.


I understand that...but H/D and CEA do not only affect blue merles or only sables they affect any colour dog.

We are on about set health conditions caused by the blue merle colour.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Ridgielover said:


> Cassandra, why refer to merle as a "defect".




It is different from the normal or standard colourings, a short-coming or fault. It is a genetic mutation.

I'd just like to state that though I don't personally approve of cropping/docking, I am all for people's right to choose to have the procedures done when they choose to have the crop/dock performed by an ethical cropping artist/vet.



Colette said:


> I do wonder - if it would be best to ban merle dogs, should we also ban the breeding of various others where colour affects health?
> 
> Or the blue / fawn dobermanns. The KC accepts these colours despite teh very high incidence of colour dilute alopaecia and skin complaints. A friend of mine is currently fostering a blue dobe (bought for a high price for benig "rare") who now has only a small patch / strip of rouch, course hair on her shoulders, gets the pimples, feels the cold so badly she virtualy lives by the radiator...
> 
> Actually, I would far prefer the KC to refuse the dilute dobies (which ferquently have problems) than merle dogs (which generally only have issues if double merles).


Storm's Regimen

Please send that link to your friend fostering the blue with CDA. It is one of the best resources for dilute dobes on the web. Also has he/she been tested for Staph Infection and Thyroid problems? Sounds like something that should be done asap if not already.

Dilution can be easily avoided in breedings by splashing out £80 or so ($55 per locus for Coat Colour and Dilution) on a coat genetics test. You don't even have to test for coat colour, just see if the dogs carry dilution, only breed carriers to a clear.

What is happening in the UK with Dilute dogs is they're popping up everywhere, being sold as "rare" or "more valuable" than the other colours, usually to people who don't know any better. In the USA there are ethical breeders producing Dilute Dobermanns who keep their coats and even obtain championship titles.

What you tend to find is that the majority of Dilute dogs are produced by less than stellar people who are unethical. Therefore, they are likely not doing the appropriate health testing and also not breeding together the best pairs, which will not throw the most healthy or best conformed puppies. This is how things go with Merles as well. Maybe not so much in the breeds where Merles have been present for a long time, but with Chihuahuas, Great Danes, Pomeranians, Dachshunds etc the people producing Merle are despicable imho.

Merle is not an acceptable colour in the standard for any of these breeds, but loopholes in breed standards have allowed them to at least become registrable.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/StrainMerleJVIM2009.pdf - deafness in merles - 2.7% of heterozygous merles had unilateral deafness.

Aussie Eye Defects - eye defects in merles - not pretty.

Also 17% of Shetland Sheepdogs have eye problems anyway, approximately 1 in every 6 dogs.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1624/hsshetlandsheepdog.pdf - Table 3


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/StrainMerleJVIM2009.pdf - deafness in merles - 2.7% of heterozygous merles had unilateral deafness.
> 
> Aussie Eye Defects - eye defects in merles - not pretty.
> 
> ...


The 2 nd link gives a warning though
Warning: The results of this survey and particularly the breed-specific analyses
should be interpreted with caution. The overall response rate was
only 24% with breed-specific response rates from 4.5% to 64.7%.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I actually havn't met any Blue Merles with deafness (genetic) only the Double Merles. When I bought my Sable Merle the vet was surprised he didn't have any deafness I wasn't cause he wasn't a double M gene only a single. Oh and I never bred from him he was a pet..


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2011)

lauren001 said:


> http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/StrainMerleJVIM2009.pdf - deafness in merles - 2.7% of heterozygous merles had unilateral deafness.
> 
> Aussie Eye Defects - eye defects in merles - not pretty.
> 
> ...


That's why no good breeder lets pups go without a CEA eye exam done before.

15.1 % have eye problems in cocker spaniels and 23.8% in toy poodles....and 17.1% Lhasa Apso. So shelties are not the only breed out there with eye problems.

According to the chart you linked me to 2.6% of shelties suffer with Neurologic problems such as " Deafness; seizures; IVDD; vestibular diseas" so isnt that low if so many merle's are affected by deafness?

When 2.3% of flat coats are affected by "Seizures; deafness; meningitis; sacroiliac disorder; vestibular disease" and 11.3% fox terriers are affected by "Seizures; deafness; IVDD (thoracic)"

You see ever breed suffers from deafness to a extent...even breeds without merles.

I have not yet met a deaf blue merle...however I have met a deaf double merle.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

The eye defect was a very interesting read


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Some dogs like a Tri or Sable can hide the merle gene its not noticable. My Sheltie once he was in his adult coat only showed Merle on the tip of one ear which no one but myself or a breeder even knew was there so it would be easy for a novice to not notice and breed to a merle then you get a double merle Yikes. You can usually tell when they are very yoiung esp. at birth its more noticeable....off topic a bit but when Lily the Lab was born the breeder told me I'd be able to tell at birth which were going to be fox red and which would be varying colours of yellow and she was right it was very obvious at birth but not at 4 days


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Colette said:


> I do wonder - if it would be best to ban merle dogs, should we also ban the breeding of various others where colour affects health?
> 
> Dalmatians for example - I believe both the HUA problem and deafness are linked to the spotting of the coat. Should we ban them?
> 
> ...


This is a very good post..


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Canuckjill said


> My Sheltie once he was in his adult coat only showed Merle on the tip of one ear which no one but myself or a breeder even knew was there so it would be easy for a novice to not notice and breed to a merle then you get a double merle


I had never thought about that. Surely that's another good reason to get rid of this coat colour.

Off topic, but today I saw "pure white boxer pups" advertised for sale in the pets colim of a national paper. Are pure white dogs albino? If they are, surely they should not be bred from either as they have loads of health problems.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Old Shep said:


> Canuckjill said
> 
> I had never thought about that. Surely that's another good reason to get rid of this coat colour.
> 
> Off topic, but today I saw "pure white boxer pups" advertised for sale in the pets colim of a national paper. Are pure white dogs albino? If they are, surely they should not be bred from either as they have loads of health problems.


White and Albino are different albino will have no pigment around eye lids etc also whereas white quite often have dark pigment. I wouldn't get rid of the Merle colour but then they are one of my favs in collies n shelties


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

JohnMorris said:


> Personally, I like the look of the merles, but we are, as Licencing Officers seeing a great deal more crosses with Merles which is so risky due to the genetics issues.
> 
> A breeder in my area breeds Labradoodles, those bloody expensive Australian ones and we know they already abuse their licence by keeping lots of dogs away from the home and has recently been trying to breed a "new breed" which are Merles crossed with these Labradoodles. Most, if not all of their first litter died and now I hear through the grapevine that they have ahd another litter recently and most if not all this litter has died too. The reason this perosn feels the pups died is that "someone has brought in some infection" - what the hell are they doing letting all and sundry walk in the house near these tiny pups? Perhpas it is a genuine infection brought in by one of the other many dogs they have but it cannot be ruled out that these pups died due to a genetic problem. We are investigating the situation at the moment but someone who advertises themselves as very reputable breeders and highly recommended and show such a blaze attitude towards breeding is not acceptable in our area, if anywhere. Just want to add that I have already made it clear about my views of these crossbreeds and Labradoodles ect and am not targeting this breeder becasue they breed types of dogs I don't like particularly, but because we have received several complaints and calls of concern which alerted us to this breeder. When will people learn?


sorry, but a merle what! It is a colour not a breed! And neither crossbreeding nor introducing a new colour is going to kill puppies. 
What is your job - if you work for the council surely you just have to check licenses and animal welfare, the breeds, colours and health testing are none of your business.

The above reads wrong. Obviously I mean that animal welfare is your job but not the other things.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Canuckjill said
> 
> I had never thought about that. Surely that's another good reason to get rid of this coat colour.
> 
> Off topic, but today I saw "pure white boxer pups" advertised for sale in the pets colim of a national paper. Are pure white dogs albino? If they are, surely they should not be bred from either as they have loads of health problems.


Good point. Pure white boxers with no colour on them at all will be deaf. White boxers used to be put down at birth but now they are kept and sold. Nothing wrong with the ones with a bit of colour because they wont be deaf but what about when they are bred from. I dont know the genetics of boxer colour but one would assume a white dog or bitch is more likely to produce white puppies and that some could be deaf.

What about white cats with no colour, they will be deaf too.

Then again I know a tri border collie that was deaf from birth. It was branded as untrainable till it was taken on by an obedience person who gradually realised that it responded to hand signals and by the time they had qualified for 'C' (you had to qualify then) they were sure he was completely deaf and always had been.

I would think it horribly unfair to keep a blind and deaf pup alive. I know that years ago a lot of sheltie breeders thought it worth the risk of having to destroy most of the litter in the hope of getting a really good merle pup.

By the way, way back in this thread someone said they didnt like the way that merle border collies had sprung up in the last 10 years. I was doing obedience 35 years ago and there were loads of merles competing and being bred from.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> By the way, way back in this thread someone said they didnt like the way that merle border collies had sprung up in the last 10 years. I was doing obedience 35 years ago and there were loads of merles competing and being bred from.


I think that may have been my comment that They were not copmmon in the agility circuit 10 years ago. Well, I never saw any (I realise that doesn't necessarily mean there were none!).

I still maintain there has been a recent explosion in their popularity in the last few years.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I think that may have been my comment that They were not copmmon in the agility circuit 10 years ago. Well, I never saw any (I realise that doesn't necessarily mean there were none!).
> 
> I still maintain there has been a recent explosion in their popularity in the last few years.


I have been out of agility and obedience for 20 years but there was loads of merles then and I still have friends with merles - it might be a regional thing though. I was Bedfordshire so midlands shows mainly. Or maybe there just didnt happen to be any around for a while. I had a black and white and a red and white.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I haven't read all the thread and I haven't got time to, so apologies if this hasn't already been covered, but if you can genetically test to ascertain the colours a dog carries, surely that should be recommended/mandatory for any breed where a certain colour is linked with health problems? That way you know exactly what you're got, rather than possibly using a dog that may carry a colour that isn't clearly visible, and be used in a breeding problem that may well produce health issues in progeny??


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

That would seem a sensible way forward SL, but the KC's record on "sensible things to do" is decidedly average 

BTW, (sorry if this has been asked before, but it's a very populat thread and I haven't read all the posts) would the KC register pups which were the result of merle to merle matings?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

no KC won't register in roughs or shelties. taken from their website


Merle Colouring In The Shetland Sheepdog
23-Jul-10

At the request of the Shetland Sheepdog Breed Council, the Kennel Club agreed that with effect from 6th July 2010, it will no longer accept the registration of any Shetland Sheepdog puppies that are produced as a result of mating two merle coloured parents together.

Coat colour in the Shetland Sheepdog is complex because a range of colours is acceptable. Merle patterning, patches of lighter colour appearing in the coat, is the result of the M gene in the dog. There are two alleles of this gene: MM (merle) and M (non-merle), with merle (MM) being dominant to non-merle (M). In some breeds, the effect of the merle allele (MM) is termed dapple.

Unfortunately, the effects of the merle allele (MM) are not confined to coat patterning. The Kennel Club is aware that there can be an increased risk of impaired hearing and sight associated with it, particularly in dogs that are homozygous for MM (dogs that carry two copies of the MM allele), and has therefore agreed not to register any progeny born as a result of mating two merle parents.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

dexter said:


> no KC won't register in roughs or shelties. taken from their website
> 
> Merle Colouring In The Shetland Sheepdog
> 23-Jul-10
> ...


Is that just for Shetlands or does it apply to any merle to merle matings (I'm thinking specifically BCs)??

why does a little "angry" emoticon appear at the side of this entry? I didn't put it there.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Old Shep said:


> Is that just for Shetlands or does it apply to any merle to merle matings (I'm thinking specifically BCs)??


Not all border collies are KC registered, especially working ones.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i may be wrong but i don't think it applies to BC's


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't read all the thread and I haven't got time to, so apologies if this hasn't already been covered, but if you can genetically test to ascertain the colours a dog carries, surely that should be recommended/mandatory for any breed where a certain colour is linked with health problems? That way you know exactly what you're got, rather than possibly using a dog that may carry a colour that isn't clearly visible, and be used in a breeding problem that may well produce health issues in progeny??


Not difficult to do.



> IDEXX Laboratories, Inc. Canada
> *Health Problems Associated with the Merle Allele
> Both heterozygous merle (Mm) and homozygous double merle (MM) dogs may exhibit auditory and ophthalmic abnormalities including mild to severe deafness, increased intraocular pressure, ametropia, microphthalmia and colobomas. The double merle genotype may also be associated with abnormalities of skeletal, cardiac and reproductive systems.
> *


The gene test would also identify homozygous ie double merle dogs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If it's easily doable, then it should be done really, where you don't know the 'merle' status for certain, of a dog. And, I'd suggest, if merle can cause health problems, then perhaps it shouldn't be bred for at all, if there's a chance it could produce progeny eventually, with health problems related to their colour. Not a popular suggestion I'm sure, but then who'd want to knowingly breed towards a health problem, rather than away from it. I'm the first to say dogs aren't robots, and are all prone to any number of health problems, but it seems silly to keep a colouring that can cause problems when bred towards, either knowingly or unknowingly.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Old Shep said:


> why does a little "angry" emoticon appear at the side of this entry? I didn't put it there.


where?..........


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

So that lab are clearly stating that merle can cause problems even in heterozygous dogs. Why on earth would someone take the risk? There are enough unknown risks when breeding, why increase this with a known one?

I know all BCs are not KC registered (I only have ISDS registered dogs), but as a registering body, it makes absolutly no sense to refuse to register other breeds, but to allow it for others. 

I'm not sure what ISDS position is on this. I shall try to find out.


I can't find the emoticon now. Wierd!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

ISDS will register merle pups and recognise red and blue merle as coat colour.

I have emailed them again to find out if they will register merle to merle pups 


I do hope not.


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## JoedeeUK (Dec 27, 2007)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If it's easily doable, then it should be done really, where you don't know the 'merle' status for certain, of a dog. And, I'd suggest, if merle can cause health problems, then perhaps it shouldn't be bred for at all, if there's a chance it could produce progeny eventually, with health problems related to their colour. Not a popular suggestion I'm sure, but then who'd want to knowingly breed towards a health problem, rather than away from it. I'm the first to say dogs aren't robots, and are all prone to any number of health problems, but it seems silly to keep a colouring that can cause problems when bred towards, either knowingly or unknowingly.





Old Shep said:


> So that lab are clearly stating that merle can cause problems even in heterozygous dogs. Why on earth would someone take the risk? There are enough unknown risks when breeding, why increase this with a known one?
> 
> I know all BCs are not KC registered (I only have ISDS registered dogs), but as a registering body, it makes absolutly no sense to refuse to register other breeds, but to allow it for others.
> 
> I'm not sure what ISDS position is on this. I shall try to find out.


None of the Mm merles I have "met"have had any problems of the MM dogs. Deafness & Epilepsy occur far too often in non merle BC/WSD & this does include ISDS registered dogs(I know of a very young dog from ISDS lines that has epilepsy)

So using your logic we should stop breeding BCs altogether !

BTW all my BCs have been ISDS dogs first except the middle two I own now & even they are more than half ISDS


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> So using your logic we should stop breeding BCs altogether !


Err...no. How on earth did you deduce that from what I have said 

What I said was that according to the link provided by Lauren, both hetero- and ****- zygous merles carried known health risks (did you read the link? It was self explanatory), so why breed from dogs with a known health risk.


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## princessjezebel (Jul 2, 2011)

when u breed merles theres a gene that lightens the hair.that same gene can cause deafness n blindness.merle is a dominant color so if u have 2 merles being bred 2gether theres a much,much larger chance of this happening.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

shetlandlover said:


> Alaska (because of her black) looks right to me....so when I see merles without it takes me a bit to get used to them.
> 
> Now this boy looks right to me......
> 
> ...


is this Peter's dog ?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2011)

leoti said:


> is this Peter's dog ?


Yes.
Isnt he lovely. He's up for stud on Alaska's breeders website.:blush:


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

he is nice am hoping he enters him under me in december as id like to go over him


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